Car Conversation from Airport -- July 3, 1975, Chicago Brahmānanda: (begins in car) ...the sun is the center, in that way above the sun. [break] Prabhupāda: ...is not center. It is above the sun. It has his own orbit. Brāhmaṇanada: Oh. [break] Prabhupāda: Sun is situated in the middle of the universe. [break] ...diameter of the universe is four billion or forty million? [break] Sun is situated 200 billion from the circumference of the universe. But the earth is between the sun and the circumference. Therefore it appears to be almost correct, 93 million. Apart from these differences, these people say there was no civilization before two thousand years? Harikeśa: Three thousand. Prabhupāda: Three thousand. [break] ...this knowledge is there in the *Bhāgavatam*, which was written in words five thousand years ago, but the knowledge was known millions and millions of years. Harikeśa: Some of the scholars say that because Lord Buddha is predicted in the *Bhāgavatam*, that it proves that the *Bhāgavatam* was written after Lord Buddha appeared. Prabhupāda: Buddha said like that? Harikeśa: The scholars, they say... Brahmānanda: They say it's not possible to predict a person's appearance. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Brahmānanda: They say because it's not possible by ordinary means to predict a person's birth, because Lord Buddha is mentioned in Śrīmad*-Bhāgava... *Prabhupāda: Still there is a science, Bhṛgu*-saṁhitā, which will give you prediction of your next birth. Still there is science, Bhṛgu-saṁhitā. He'll give you description of three lives: your past life, present life, and future life. Bhṛgu-saṁhitā. [break] ...Bhāgavata it is said bhaviṣyati. Kikaṭeṣu bhaviṣyati. Bhaviṣyati means "He will appear." Why it is not possible? You haven't got that knowledge, that is another thing. But it is possible. [break] ...one word: tri-kāla-jñā. Tri-kāla-jñā means "one who knows past, present, and future." Kṛṣṇa says, vedāhaṁ samatītāni [Bg. 7.26]. "I know everything past, present..." Brahmānanda: Equally, He says. Sama tītāni. He knows the past, the present and the future. *Prabhupāda: And He says in another place, "It is not that we were not existing in the past, and neither it is that we shall not exist in the future." So this is past, present, future. Tri*-kāla-jñā. So we are not going to the temple? : Śrī Govinda Oh, yes. [break] Morning Walk -- July 3, 1975, Denver Prabhupāda: ...July 3rd, July 4th not the same body. Kuruśreṣṭha: Still, they will say that there's still no reason... Prabhupāda: They will say so many nonsense. Who is going to take it? They are rejected as nonsense. Anyone who is a speculator, he is a nonsense because he has no standard knowledge. Next day they will say, "Oh, no, this is not. This is." They are doing that. That is not knowledge. [break] *Devotee (1): We were discussing in Bhagavad*-gītā class last night that during our life we are changing our bodies so many different times, and at the time of death we are also changing our body to another body. Prabhupāda: Yes, you get another body. Devotee (1): What is the difference of changing our body during our lifetime and at death? Prabhupāda: This is... I have said many times. Just like you are using this shirt, and it is not usable, you throw it and again accept another. [break] ...understand this is a difficult problem. (laughs) [break] Ambarīṣa: ...second we are dying. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dying means changing body, that's all. Ambarīṣa: So we're changing bodies all the time. Prabhupāda: It is going on. You will find it. A creeper is growing. Today she, it is, leaf has grown so much, and next moment you'll see, it has grown so much. Yadubara: [break] ...that asparagus that you eat, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That will grow two inches in one night. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: Very quickly. [break] Kuruśreṣṭha: ...the same body, but just the parts are changing. They say that it's not actually the whole body that's changing, but just you're changing parts like... Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. "Parts are changing, the body is not changing." Just see. (laughter) Just rascaldom. "Parts are changing, body is not changing." *Suraśreṣṭha: Just like a car*-you take spark plugs and put new spark plugs in, but still, it's the same car. Prabhupāda: When the whole parts are changing, then where is the original body? When the whole parts are changed, then it is to be concluded the body is changed. There are so many parts. If this is changed, this is changed, this is changed, then where is the original body? (laughter) Just see their rascaldom. Yadubara: Parts make up the whole. Prabhupāda: Yes. "The parts are changing, the whole is not changing." Just see. Therefore we say rascals only. Suraśreṣṭha: They say that the brain stays the same, that the brain cells never... Prabhupāda: Therefore take them as rascal. Everything is changing. Brahmānanda: You brain is the same as it was when you were an infant? Kuruśreṣṭha: They say that there's new information coming in, but the brain cells don't die. Devotee (2): The memory, the memory is staying the same. *Devotee (3): [break] You had said on a... earlier on a morning walk, on a tape, that if one enters into the spiritual world that-you were asked that he will never have to return*-and you said that if it's a desire, he can return to the material world. Prabhupāda: So what is your objection? Devotee (3): I was just wondering if the spirit soul being in the spiritual world is eternally liberated, how can he return. By desire? Prabhupāda: Yes. If he desires, he can come again. That option is always there. Just like I remain in India. I come here. And if I like, I may not come. It is my option. Ambarīṣa: When we get to the spiritual sky, we'll always be able to remember how horrible it is down here? We'll always be able to remember how terrible it is in the material world? Prabhupāda: It is terrible. Ambarīṣa: Yes, we will be able to remember that. Prabhupāda: That is intelligence. When one remembers that this world is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15], is a place of misery, then we can go. As long as we shall think, "Oh, it is very nice place," we have to remain. Kṛṣṇa is so kind, "All right, remain in this very nice place." Brahmānanda: You gave the example yesterday of Lord Indra. When he took birth here as a hog, then he didn't want to leave. He thought it was nice. Prabhupāda: Yes, he also thought it is a very nice place. Kāśīrāma: Queen Kuntī was always praying that the calamities would happen again and again so that she would remember Kṛṣṇa. If the calamities are always happening in the material world, we will realize it is a terrible place to stay. Prabhupāda: This is jñāna, knowledge. When one comes to this conclusion, "This is worthless," that is jñāna, knowledge. And so long one will think, "No, it is not always bad, sometimes very good," that is ignorance. (laughs) Kuruśreṣṭha: They say that without the bad, then the good wouldn't be as good. *Prabhupāda: So you remain with bad and good. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. That possibility is here. Sometimes you are going to the higher heavenly planets, a long duration of life, better standard of enjoyment*-again coming back. [break] Good and bad is exemplified: just like I catch you and put down the water, and when you are suffocated, I raise you little, and you say, "Oh. (laughter) It is very nice." But you do not know, again you are going to be... You see? "This good, bad" is here like that. He is put into the water and suffocated, and when he is taken out little, he says, "Oh, it is very good. It is very good." The rascal does not know, the next moment he is going to be again drowned in that. That is going on. Daṇḍya-jane rāja-jana... That was the chief punishment formerly. If one has to be punished, instead of putting into the jail and feed him, the officers will take him to a river and put him in the water. In this way, one day doing, he will say "I will never do these things. Please excuse me." Daṇḍya-jane rāja-jane nadite cubaya. [break] ...unless one remembers this, that "To be in the material world, how suffocating it is," he will not fit for going to back to Godhead. He must be completely detestful. If he keeps little attachment, "No, it is very good sometimes," then you have to remain here. [break] "This is not permanent. I shall be put next moment in the bad condition." That he must know. That is knowledge. And if he makes compromise, then he has to be again... [break] Devotee (4): ...consciousness part of this life, up to the time of death, in our next life we will be put in a situation immediately where we can take up Kṛṣṇa consciousness again or will we have to suffer karma before we came into Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *Prabhupāda: You will get Kṛṣṇa conscious again. Yoga*-bhraṣṭaḥ sañjāya... Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭaḥ sañjāyate [Bg. 6.41]. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person will be given all comforts of material life so that he may regain without any botheration. Yadubara: Sometimes it is stated that Kṛṣṇa will take everything away from the devotee. Prabhupāda: That is special favor, (laughter) that "This rascal is again attached. Take all his..." That is special favor. That is not ordinary favor, so that when everything is taken away, he will completely surrender to Kṛṣṇa, "Kṛṣṇa, I have nothing except You." Kuruśreṣṭha: Once one performs devotional service then he can't get away from Kṛṣṇa. Can he still get away? It seems like... Prabhupāda: Yes, that option is always, because you are independent. Kuruśreṣṭha: I see with myself that if I try to get away a little bit, He beats me so much that I have to come back. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is special favor. Yadubara: So Kṛṣṇa is directly controlling that? Prabhupāda: Yes. When He sees, "That fool wants Me, at the same time, material world. So take his material possession, everything, so that he will want only Me, that's all." Actually, it was done to me. (laughs) I have got practical experience. I did not want to take sannyāsa. I thought that I shall do business. And Kṛṣṇa forced me to take sannyāsa and all, everything, dismantled. Devotee (4): Kṛṣṇa's mercy on us. Yadubara: But your business was successful... Prabhupāda: I was thinking of becoming Birla, but I am now more than Birla. This is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Brahmānanda: Birla gives you money now. Prabhupāda: Not only that, how many branches Birla has? It is an example, yes. Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if a devotee gets sick, should he go and take medicine? Prabhupāda: Better not to take. Devotee (4): Just depend on Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very good. What is this? Kuruśreṣṭha: Rosehips. (Horse hips(?) Forceps(?)) Yadubara: You said the other day, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that we should take care of disease if it comes. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita was also saying fire and so on. Prabhupāda: That is material consciousness. Brahmānanda: Fasting is one way of eliminating the disease without taking medicine. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is a Indian proverb that "Disease and unwanted guest, if you don't give food, they will go away." If some guest has come whom you do not want, don't give him food. Then he will go away. (laughter) Similarly, disease, if you fast, it will go away. [break] ...another story: prahareṇa dhanañjaya. One gentleman had eight or nine daughters and son*-in-law. So when they came, he was giving them good food and shelter, everything. So then they saw, "We are very comfortably living at father-in-law's expense." So they did not want to go. The father-in-law saw, "It is very dangerous that all the son-in-laws are not going." Then he began to... First day he did not supply salt. So one son-in-law say, "Oh, they are now disrespecful, they have not given salt." So one went away. And next day, something else, something else, something else, shortened, shortened. So those who were intelligent, they went away. The last one, he was not going. Then his brother-in-laws thought that "Give him good beating." Then he went away. Prahareṇa dhanañjaya. Others, those who were intelligent, they, when they thought that "Now there is disrespectful dealing, they are not giving everything," so they gradually... The last one, he was a rascal. He was beaten severely; then he went away. Yadubara: So if we're beaten by this material nature, then we'll go away. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. No, material nature's business is beating and kicking. That's his only business. But we are so fool, we are taking, "Oh, very nice kicking." That is the disease. We accept the kicking as very nice. That is foolishness. We are suffering always by three kinds of..., ādhyātmika, ādhibhautika, ādhidaivika disturbances. There is disturbance in the body, in the mind, disturbance by other living entities, so many, disturbed by climate, disturbed by famine. Always disturbance. Still, we are thinking, "It is very nice place." This is foolishness. Still, we are trying to improve it. That is foolishness. He does not think that "What is the meaning of improvement? The disturbing is always continuing." That does not come to his brain. They are making improvement. [break] ...improvement, they can say, "This is improvement." But how long this improvement will go? If there is no rainfall, what this improvement will help? So that is not in your hand. That is ādhidaivika. It depends on the demigods. If they want, they can stop completely, no rainfall. Then what this improvement will do? Brahmānanda: There'll be no water for their machines. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are thinking that "This is improvement." What is this nonsense improvement? You are dependent fully on other elements. What improvement will do? And Kṛṣṇa says, "This is a place for misery." How you will improve? This is folly, this is illusion. Kṛṣṇa says, "This place is for suffering," and you are making improvement. "Yes, we are advancing. In future we shall live. Nobody will die." Therefore they are called rascals. Persons who are trying to do something which is impossible, they are fools. Mūḍha. They do not see, still, they hope, "Yes, we are trying. We shall do in future." This is going on. This is the example by the ass. The ass... Driver is sitting on the back of the ass and showing one bunch of grass, and the ass is thinking, "I will get it." (laughter) And he is going on, and he is sitting safely, that "The ass will go on." So our improvement is like that. "Just little forward, then I shall get the grass." He will never get the grass. That he has no brain, that "I am improving; the grass also improving, going on." That they do not see. Now we invented so many airship. It was thought, "Oh, now it will be very nice. Within two hours we shall reach somewhere." Now there are so many dangers. Now there is problem, how to protect us from these accidents. Brahmānanda: Now they have too many airplanes. Prabhupāda: Too many airplanes. So where is the improvement? Improvement means to die altogether two hundred men at a time. This is improvement. Kuruśreṣṭha: They are trying to create a plastic body with plastic heart transplants and plastic liver. They feel that as soon as they can replace all the breakable parts with replaceble ones... Prabhupāda: That is a Frankenstein? (laughter) Yadubara: They're very persistent, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That is the foolishness. Fools are very persistent. Brahmānanda: I was reading that in order to go to the moon, it took ten years and the cost was 25 billion dollars. *Prabhupāda: Just see how foolish they are. And again they are trying. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Chewing the chewed. This is their business. Horrible civilization. Kāśīrāma: Mistaking suffering for happiness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambarīṣa: They are always trying to look for the bright side, but there is no bright side. Prabhupāda: Just like north of Sweden, there is no sunrise? Brahmānanda: No. Prabhupāda: So where is bright side? Where is bright side? Vedic injunction is tamasi mā jyotir gama: "Don't remain in this darkness; go to the bright world." Jyotir gama. [break] ...to create some bright side. He will not be allowed to enjoy it. He will have to die. So where is your bright side? [break] ...for preparing? Brahmānanda: For the moon? 25 billion dollars. Prabhupāda: So again I am trying to go another planet. Where is the guarantee that it will be successful? Brahmānanda: On the contrary, if they failed once, then we should think that they would fail again. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is animalism. A dog is coming, and you show him some stick or beat him. He will go away for the time being. Again he will come. That is dog. He doesn't get lesson by one. Therefore it is called punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Repeating the same thing again and again. That is animalism. Yadubara: They actually think that they were successful. *Prabhupāda: Unless they say, how they will adjust so much money spent? What account they will give? They must bluff, "Yes, it is successful." I saw in the Allahabad high*-court. One man was condemned to death. I told you? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So one barrister, Mr. Allston, he was pacifying, "Don't worry, I shall appeal and get you released. Don't worry." (laughter) I heard it. I was passing, and Mr. Allston was advising his client. He was morose. "Don't worry, I shall appeal and get you released." [break] ...condemned person was a medical man, and he killed his servant in the surgical room because the servant was implicated with his wife. This is the story. [break] Brahmānanda: ...English? Prabhupāda: No, no, Indian. Brahmānanda: And the man was also Indian? Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: But the barrister, he was English. Prabhupāda: He was appointed because he was a big barrister. Formerly any European, he is very big. So he appointed a very big barrister. Brahmānanda: Oh, he was a rich Indian. Prabhupāda: Huh? Brahmānanda: How he could get such a... Prabhupāda: He was a medical man. Yes, rich, rich. [break] ...they have arranged to have the meeting with this Professor Dimmock? Brahmānanda: I didn't ask. They were supposed to do it. (end) Morning Walk -- July 4, 1975, Chicago Prabhupāda: ...resembling Boston. That students' quarter? Brahmānanda: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: Go to the beach now. [break] Sweet water? Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: No. Bhavānanda: This is fresh water. [break] Prabhupāda: ...Angeles, I have seen while going to the beach, one man has made a boat of concrete cement. Did you see? Nobody marked? Viṣṇujana: In California there are such boats, concrete boats. Prabhupāda: They are used? Viṣṇujana: Oh yes. They are used for taking cargo up and down the coast. They don't travel in the ocean, but they travel on the coast. They used them during the Second World War all over the United States. Prabhupāda: Such boat does not drown? Viṣṇujana: They keep it up by huge air tanks. By holding so much air they keep the cement up. [break] Prabhupāda: ...ficial means. Otherwise it will drown. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sink, yeah. [break] Prabhupāda: ...officially closed. [break] ...water increases? I don't think. It does not. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The lake water, doesn't increase. [break] Prabhupāda: ...never. [break] Dirty water? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a boat ramp, where they let boats down. The water doesn't look very clean. Brahmānanda: There's a lot of shipping in these lakes. Devotee 1: They also pump a lot of refuse from the industry in there. I think it's polluted. [break] *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've been reading in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, Madhya-līlā, that, there's a statement that when Caitanya Mahāprabhu took prasādam at the house of Advaita Ācārya, there's a verse quoted from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that a sannyāsī should not leave anything, no... When he's taking his meals he should not leave anything on the plate. But sometimes we have heard in the past that a sannyāsī should leave something on the plate. Prabhupāda: No. Sometimes the guru leaves some remnant to be taken by the disciple. That is meant for the disciple. Ordinarily they should not. [break] ...from the other side of the lakes? Brahmānanda: It's Canada. Prabhupāda: Canada, oh. Śrī Govinda: Actually, I think it is Michigan. It is another state in the United States. Then to the north is Canada. [break] *Satsvarūpa: One temple, St. Louis temple, has come to this festival, and they brought with them their installed Deities which are Gaura*-Nitāi. I wasn't sure that was right of them to do that. And They're now on the altar of the Chicago temple, but the Deities are not in the St. Louis temple. Gaura... Prabhupāda: That is closed? Satsvarūpa: They left one man there. Better to keep the temple open with the Deities there or can the...? Prabhupāda: No, no. When there is Deity, it must be taken care of. Satsvarūpa: They should not be transported to another temple? Prabhupāda: No, no harm. Satsvarūpa: May the temple be only one man left? Prabhupāda: Why, if there is no Deity, what is the use of keeping one man? [break] ...is meant for Deity, not for man. [break] Viṣṇujana: ...Dāmodara here for the festival. Is it all right for Them to go on Lord Jagannātha's altar while He is gone? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Viṣṇujana: Is it all right to put the Deities on the altar in the temple, on Lord Jagannātha's altar while He's gone? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...private houses or...? Bhavānanda: Some of them are university and some are private. [break] Prabhupāda: ...the news we have got the "no objection" certificate. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? For the temple or the... Prabhupāda: Bombay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's for a skyscraper building or for the temple? Prabhupāda: Temple. The chief minister has sanctioned. He is very nice man. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nayika(?)? Prabhupāda: No, no, Nayika was a rogue. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A new one. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is Chyavan? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So now we can build two towers and a temple. Prabhupāda: Now bring money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, what is the plan? To send money or books? Prabhupāda: No, money. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...He says a devotee is never vanquished, Prabhupāda. Just see. [break] Prabhupāda: ...we get so much description of the sky and planets, but they had no observatory. How it was possible? [break] ...they can see with the observatory? (laughs) [break] Viṣṇujana: ...see it themselves, Prabhupāda. They don't want to just read it in books, they say. Prabhupāda: No, what they will see? That is my question. With these limited eyes? Satsvarūpa: But they say that even what they can't see, it's more of the same. Prabhupāda: Huh? Satsvarūpa: They've made some conclusion by their mathematics as to what they can see. Whatever they can't see, it's still more of the same, material sky and planets. There's nothing beyond it. Prabhupāda: Then seeing and not seeing, the same thing? That is, means you see or not see... Is that mean, that seeing or not seeing? This is contradictory. Either you see or you don't see. These are two things. (laughter) But what is this "I see, I don't see"? Viṣṇujana: For that, they spend millions of dollars on a telescope. *Prabhupāda: And just see. That which is impossible, they are trying for that. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], chewing the chewed, that's all. When your senses are imperfect, then what you will see? Whatever you see, that is imperfect. So what is the meaning of seeing? Therefore our seeing is śāstra-cakṣuṣāt: "We should see through the authorized scriptures." That is our... You will see in the description of Śukadeva Gosvāmī of the whole universe, conclusion, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, "So far I have described as I have heard." He never says, "As I have seen." This is required. [break] ...that we believe in the creation. And others also, just like Christians, they also believe God created. But who has seen God is creating? Who has seen? Simply hear from God. He says, "I have created." That's all. But if you challenge, "I have not seen that You have created; neither I have seen You," then how can you believe? God says, "I have created," so those who are God believers, they will accept that. So what is the use of seeing again, observatory? We trust in God, but don't trust in His word. This is going on. You write in America, "We trust in God," but don't trust in His word. (laughs) Just see. If God you trust, then whatever God says, you believe. "No, that we cannot do." This is the (indistinct). [break] Viṣṇujana: Kṛṣṇa is so opulent, why did He appear in the form of Lord Caitanya in such a poor village atmosphere? Prabhupāda: That is His opulence. Here the material man, if he is rich man, he cannot become a poor man. That means he is lacking that opulence. [break] ...opulence. Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān. He can become the bigger than the biggest and the smaller than the smallest. That is opulence. You cannot manufacture a mosquito. You can manufacture a 747, but manufacture a mosquito, then we shall know your science. (laughter) ...the same machine. Otherwise how it is flying? [break] ...seen, so imperfect you are, that what are the machine there? And you are proud of seeing, nonsense. See the machine, where it is there, how the mosquito is flying. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And one mosquito can produce many mosquitos. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is there complete. Brahmānanda: It doesn't crash either. Prabhupāda: No. (laughter) And still, these rascals, believing their eyes. What is the meaning of your eyes? You see, study mosquito. Not only mosquito, you will find at night I see a small insect, less than the magnitude of full stop. (Makes insect sound:) "Gu, gu, gu, gu." The same machine is there. Now see what is the machine there if you have such eyes. What is their answer? "In future." Just see. In future they will be able. Yes. [break] Brahmānanda: ...will say that nature has created such a... Prabhupāda: Then nature is greater than you. Then you are rascal. He knows, You have to accept, somebody is greater than you. He knows, you do not know. Learn from him. Brahmānanda: Well, they say that they can control nature. *Prabhupāda: Again foolishness. That irritates me. When they speak like that, rascal, that irritates me. (laughter) Therefore I simply call them rascal. [break] Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇaḥ. They are claiming very, very, big man, but as soon as we see that he is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, we reject, "He is a foolish." [break] There is... That is a fact, one case was going on, and the judge was dozing, like that. So his clerk warned, "You are dozing. Big, big lawyers, they are talking." "So let these rascals go on talking. I have already concluded my..., (laughter) what judgment I shall give. Let them..." (laughs) So our is like that. We don't hear these rascals. Our judgment is already there. They are rascals. That's all. Let them talk whole day and night. The judge said to the clerk that "I have already made my judgment, so let these foolish men go on talking." [break] ...minister of Orissa, he has promised a land in Jagannātha Purī. So if we get that land, is it not possible to construct another Jagannātha temple? You'll earn the American money here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If they won't let us into that Jagannātha Purī, we have to make another one. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagannātha will come to our temple. Yes. [break] ...selling prasādam, we shall distribute free. [break] ...comes, take prasādam. (end) Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago Prabhupāda: ...magazine? Mayor: No. I know about the article on the crime and I have it at home, but I have not read it as yet. But we certainly know that it's a tremendous problem in the United States, perhaps throughout the world and certainly here. *Prabhupāda: It is not a problem. Just like there is disease, and there is remedy also. And as much as the disease is chronic, the remedy is also costly. So in the western countries-do not mind*-they are not trying to educate first-class men, and that is the difficulty. This advancement, technical knowledge, to have nice motor cars or big, big buildings, highways, this is very good, but this is not the aim of life. Mayor: No, material things should not be. *Prabhupāda: They are missing the aim of life. That is the... The aim of life is, an..., not according to Vedic, but anyone, the aim of life is how to realize God. That is aim. In the animal life or in other lives less important than the human being there is no question of God realization. In the human life, the civilized human life, there is religion. It doesn't matter whether one is Christian or a Hindu or a Muslim or a Buddhist. These are the principle religions of the world. So any civilized man must be inquisitive to know what is the original source of everything. That philosophy is there. It is called Brahma*-sūtra or Vedānta-sūtra. Perhaps you have heard the name, Vedānta philosophy. Veda means knowledge, and anta means end. In the materialistic way of knowledge they did not find any end, and they accept it "That this is progress." But one must come to the end of the knowledge, what is the ultimate knowledge. So generally they are missing what is the ultimate knowledge. We are searching after knowledge in so many ways but what is the ultimate knowledge? The ultimate knowledge, Vedānta, means end of knowledge. End of knowledge means to understand the original source of everything. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The human inquisitiveness should be up to that point, what is the origin of everything. Because human life is not a spot. That... The western people are lacking that understanding. We are thinking that this duration of life, say, for fifty to a hundred years, that is all. No. That is the first instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā, that this body is not everything. We have to accept another body after death. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. As we are accepting different bodies in our this span of life from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood, from youthhood to old age... So this is the example. And after this old age, after this body is useless, then I accept another body. And again another chapter of life begins. And on my next life, next body I am creating, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya, infection. Just like if I infect some disease, I am creating that disease. If I infect smallpox disease, then I must develop that disease. How it is, subtle way, working, that we cannot see. But if somewhere I have infected some disease, somewhere it will be manifest. It will manifest. You cannot check it. So in this material world there are three qualities: goodness, passion, and ignorance. So as we associate, we develop a type of body. So these crimes means they do not get good association. Naturally they are developing. And now these boys, they are also Americans and Europeans. They are getting good association, and they are becoming free from all bad habits. We generally take bad character on the basis of illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. Mayor: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So they were habituated to all... Because that is a system in the European, American life. But now they are free. That is Professor Judah's remark in his letter. Have you got that? Yes. He has written one book, Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture, about our movement. He has read all our books. Here are, you have shown all these books? So he appreciates, many gentlemen appreciate, even the priestly class, they also appreciate. So this is a movement which is trying to create at least a section to become first*-class. The first-class man does not mean that he is nicely dressed or very rich or very opulent. Generally, of course, a first-class man means good parentage, good education, good looking and nicely rich. That is the standard. But... That may be first-class position, but first-class man is different. First-class man means he is self-controlled, in the mind he is undisturbed, he is truthful, he is very clean, inside and outside, he is very simple, tolerant, full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge, and believe in God. This is first-class man. There is no mention that he is rich, he is beautiful, bodily, or he is educated. Educated, this is a result of education. Real education means that he is self controlled. Controlling the mind, controlling the senses, truthful. He will speak truth in any circumstances. Even to his enemy he will speak the truth. And clean, and very simple, tolerant. And any knowledge, he has got some, I mean to say, strength over it. Ultimate knowledge, Brahmān, he believes in that and he has... Brahma janātītī brāhmaṇaḥ, This is first-class man. So it is not expected that everyone will become first-class. but there must be a section in the society, ideal first-class. And they will be advisor to the rest. These brāhmaṇas, they will not take part in politics, but those who are politicians, administrators, they should take advice from these first-class men, how to rule, how to control, what is the ideal. So the ruling class, they are called kṣatriyas. So find out this verse, śamaḥ damaḥ... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want about the kṣatriya or the brāhmaṇas? Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: *Prabhupāda: This is first*-class man. And the second-class man? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: *Prabhupāda: That is second*-class. And the third-class? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda: They are not cow protection, that was... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cow protection. *Prabhupāda: Cow protection. It has to be corrected. It is go*-rakṣya, go. They take it cattle-raising. I think Hayagrīva has translated like this. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hayagrīva. *Prabhupāda: No, it is especially mentioned go*-rakṣya. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. And then...? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdrasyāpi svabhāva*-jam. *Prabhupāda: And to serve under somebody, that is śūdra. So at the present moment people are being educated to serve under somebody. Technology, one is very expert in some particular line of technology, say, computer machine... You know how to operate. It is a big qualification. But unless he gets a job under some big establishment, he is useless. He cannot live independently. The first*-class man will live independently. The second-class man also will live independently. And the third-class men, they will also live independently. And those who cannot live independently, they are fourth-class men. So at the present moment we are simply creating fourth-class men. So fourth-class men, they are prone to be degraded. If you don't raise them to become first-class, they must degrade. So that is the position of the present civilization. They are creating all fourth-class men, and gradually they are degrading. So now you should take up very seriously how you can create some first-class men. First-class, second-class, third-class also. If you simply remain in the fourth grade, technology... Technology means he has to serve under somebody. This industry, that is also the same thing. Hundreds and thousands of men are working. They are fourth-class men. And śūdra. Just like formerly in Indian village... Still there are. They are self-supported. Suppose there is a blacksmith. If you require some black iron instrument, you go there and he will prepare immediately. Say, an oil crusher, extracting oil. So weaver, self-supported. Now these things have been taken in larger scale. That is called industry. But actually these things are meant for the śūdras, fourth-class men. So the problem is that if we keep men fourth-class or increase only fourth-class men, so these things are automatic, the resultant action. Therefore, in the western countries especially, everywhere, all over the world, the attempt should be how to create first-class, second-class. At least these two classes required: good politicians, administrators, and good advisors. So this program we are placing before the world. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So I would suggest that in your country you are resourceful. You can take up this movement very seriously. And it is not expected that cent percent of the population will become first-class, but there must be ideal groups of first-class, second-class, third-class and the rest, fourth-class. That is required. Mayor: It takes a great deal of discipline to try to achieve these ideals, and that's one thing that seems to be difficult these days, especially in young people, to have any sense of the need for discipline at all. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: He says young people today have no sense of discipline. They don't know what it means to be... *Prabhupāda: How they can be? They are not trained up. They are not trained up from the very beginning. For being trained up, there is another four divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. These are the training divisions. So for the first-class, second-class, third-class, all the students, they are trained up as brahmacārī, student life. Brahmacārī means celibacy, live under the direction of the teacher and accept all kinds of hardship under the teacher's or spiritual master direction. Children, they can easily take it. If a child, a small child, I ask him, "My dear child, you take my shoes and keep it there," he will immediately agree. He has no sense, "Oh, he is asking me to take his shoes." He will immediately agree. Even he is very rich man's son. So this life is advised that a student live just like a menial servant of the teacher or the spiritual master. And they agree. We have got good instances. And he is coming from the first-class family, brāhmaṇa family or kṣatriya family or vaiśya family, first, second, third. So even śūdra family, he can learn also. So brahmacārī. Then he is, if he can remain without wife or without opposite sex, then he continues to remain as brahmacārī. He is encouraged. This process encourages to remain brahmacārī, that "Don't take to sex life, it is entailed with so many difficulties. Practice to remain a brahmacārī. You'll save so much trouble." But if he is unable*-the teacher sees-Then he is allowed to marry, marriage. If he is trained up brahmacārī, when he marries, he lives with wife under rules and regulation, not like cats and dogs. And then, because he had previous training, at a certain age he gives up family life. That is called vānaprastha. Pañcaśordhvam vānam vrajet. The vānaprastha life is accepted, generally, after fiftieth year, not earlier. Then the husband and wife travels all over, I mean to say, spiritual sanctified places. In India there are so many places. So in this way, there is no sex in the vānaprastha. Simply the wife remains as assistant. And she also practices austerities. And then the husband, when he is fully mature, he sends wife back to his elderly children to take care of her and he takes sannyāsa. So this is spiritual advancement, and in sannyāsa life, one is absolutely dedicated for the service of God. So in this way his life becomes perfect. And according to his perfection, he gets next birth in higher planetary system. In the upper planets, planetary system, there is Svargaloka up to the third-class man. And then, above that, there are Janaloka, Maharloka, Tapaloka, Satyaloka, Brahmaloka. And beyond that, there is spiritual world. So in this way life becomes perfect. If you want, you can go to the spiritual world. Spiritual world means no more accepting this material body. And so long we are in this material world we repeat one body after another. And if we degrade ourself to become criminals, then we degrade to the hellish planets down this universe. So human civilization means by nature's way, by evolutionary process, he has come to this body of human being. He should now decide that whether he should remain in this chain of birth and death or he should get out of it and go to the spiritual world. This training required. So throughout the whole world there is no such institution to study all this fact. They are going just like fourth-class men. They have decided out of their own accord that there is no life after death. Young men say that there is no old age, but nature will not agree. Your next life is old age. That is natural. You cannot say, "No, no, I don't believe in it." You believe or not believe, it will come. Similarly, you believe or not believe, your next life is there. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want the translation to it? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." Prabhupāda: So this education is required. America is resourceful and they are intelligent. And the movement is already there, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, people are appreciating gradually. So if we get little cooperation from the authorities, we can push on this movement more solidly. So you are the chief of this city. If you give us some facility, then we can be useful to counteract this position. Mayor: Well, we'd like to cooperate and we certainly need a different approach I think because we're not being successful now in trying to... Prabhupāda: No, this way will never be successful. It will degrade more and more. So our process is very simple. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's contribution, that we chant... Where is that letter? Professor Judah's? Just read that. *Brahmānanda: "I feel certain my book will help people both to understand the teachings of Kṛṣṇa the of His descent as Caitanya and to realize how Kṛṣṇa consciousness has transformed lives from drug*-addicted hippies to loving servants of Kṛṣṇa and humanity." Prabhupāda: This is his study. He has written a book. So we can stop this, provided we are given the facility to work on. Mayor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So I was thinking. Just in front there is a very nice house, big house. You have knowledge about this house? Mayor: No, I... Prabhupāda: What is that building? Śrī Govinda: Merrywood. Mayor: Oh, we are right across the street from Merrywood, yes, uh huh, which we're going to have as a city hall. Prabhupāda: Oh. You have decided? Mayor: Yes, uh huh, about, oh, just two weeks ago actually, the council... Prabhupāda: So is it not possible to use this house at least for some time for this movement? Mayor: The, er... I'm not sure what the time schedule is, but it's my impression that they were going to start remodeling it for city purposes later this year. It's about a three million dollar project, both for the purchase of the land from the sisters and the remodeling to make it suitable for various city needs. And then they're going to... The city is now located at nine different locations, that is, their facilities. And they're trying to incorporate them all in this one place so that when people need city services, they can just go one place and get all the... Prabhupāda: But this is more important. City service is going on, but criminals are increasing. So why not give us little opportunity? Mayor: Well, I could certainly discuss this with the city manager and see what could be worked out. Śrī Govinda: Possibly we could invite the city manager also to come to discuss with Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: No. So if we get a good place with the cooperation of the authorities, then our simple program is that, as Professor Judah has remarked, drug*-addicted hippies, they have been turned into devotees. We shall invite anyone to come and chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasādam and we are... I began this movement in New York alone, and these boys gradually came to me, but my process was this: chanting and giving them prasādam. He is one of the original student. He was. So this process, very simple process, everyone will be able to accept it. Chant, dance, and take prasādam. Within that process, everything is there. Then he will understand. They will read these books... They are practical examples. I am poor Indian, I did not bribe them neither I have money. (laughter) So now they have dedicated their life for this purpose. So I want to do it in a large scale. Mayor: Yes. Prabhupāda: But I have no money. So if the authorities give me a place, and for feeding them necessary foodstuff, then I am sure it will be successful. These two things I want. I don't want any charges for my mantra, no. My mantra is open, Hare Kṛṣṇa, and there is no charge for it. And I have no necessity. I require a little clothing and two capatis. That's all. Anyone can bring. I thought Chicago is one of the important cities of your country. And when I first came, I saw this is vacant. So I thought if this house can be utilized in the beginning and we invite anyone, especially young men, come here, live with us at least for one week and associate with this chanting, dancing, and we give nice prasādam. There is no difficulty. We can attempt. And if the authorities give us this facility at least for one year then we shall talk of permanent. They can see the result. Mayor: Would you use the facility, then, as sort of a center for all over the United States? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We invite. As soon as they have got a leisure hour, let them come and live with us for one week and see the result. They can remain forever. It doesn't matter. But for experimental sake they can come, live with us and associate with us. It is not difficult. And we invite everyone. We have no such discrimination that black, white, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, no. Anyone. It is universal. Because we consider every living entity is part and parcel of God. That is a fact. We are teeny gods, part and parcel. The same quality we have got*-in minute quantity. Quality is the same, quantity is less. So God is good, so we are also good. But we have become bad under circumstances. Just like under infection, one becomes diseased. So if we cure that infection, again he becomes good. So it is the curing process. It is not an external artificial thing, imposed upon somebody, no. His goodness is there. Just like generally a man is healthy, but by infecting some disease he becomes diseased. So this material way of life is a kind of infection. So we have to cure that. And this is our process. And it has become successful. So therefore this problem of your country... I was this morning also lecturing that "You take up this movement very seriously and save your country." And if you save America, means you save the whole world because others are following America. So you can do it very easily. That is my appeal to the authorities of the American administration. But I do not want anything. For your countrymen, for your misguided youthful generation, you have to do it. That is my request. Otherwise there is no other way. Viṣṇujana: According to national statistics, as far as curing drug problems and crime problems, it's seen that social organizations that are supported by the town councils, etc. are usually about 3% effective in cases cured of either drug addiction or crime. But as far as religious organizations are concerned, some of them are 70, 80% effective in cases that have been attempted cure. So it's, as far as percentage cured, the process of introducing God consciousness is much more effective than some social reform or rehabilitation work or something like that. *Prabhupāda: No, social reform will automatically come. The first*-class reform, the brāhmaṇas, if their advice is taken, then the other classes the kṣatriya, vaiśyas, and śūdras, they become automatically. Mayor: We're aware that a religious approach is more successful and our mental health society here is funding the Reverend Perry who is a black ordained, I think, a Baptist protestant minister, formerly a drug addict. And he's been working out with, especially with the blacks who have drug addiction and he achieves much more success than other agencies. Prabhupāda: Which process? Drug addiction has been helped by somebody? Brahmānanda: No, the mayor's saying that the administration is not against supporting religious organizations. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: He gives the example of one religious organization. *Prabhupāda: This is everything. Religious, social, political, philanthropical, science, everything included. We can give advice for solving any problem. That we have got all these books, practical. And in India there is political problem. Everywhere it is going on. They do not follow the standard way. Who will be the politicians? Here is the..., described. What are the politicians? Second*-class, they are taken second-class. What is that? Śaurya tejaḥ? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Heroism..." Prabhupāda: Heroism, yes. Śaurya tejaḥ... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyam [Bg. 18.43]. Prabhupāda: Ah, read this, read... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. *Prabhupāda: Yuddhe cāpalāyanam. A kṣatriya should be so trained up, when there is fight, he must come out, forward. Not that he will sit down in his secluded place and poor man will fight. No. He should come forward as leader, "Come on." That is kṣatriya quality, yuddhe cāpalāyanam. Formerly there was fight, but the leaders, they would come face to face first of all. And if the leader, one of the leader is killed*-yuddha means one party must be vanquished, fight-then the war is finished. The main person, chief person is now killed, so there is no more war. So yuddhe cāpalāyanam. Those who are taking part in administration, in politics, they must be of this quality, very chivalrous, brave. They have to learn all these quality. Just like the first-class men, they are being trained up in self-controlling, controlling the mind, controlling the senses. And these second-class men, they should be trained up how to fight. Because fight will there be. We do not place this bogus idea that there will be no fight. No. Then fight will be there so long the human society is there. But what for one should fight? That training should be there. Not unnecessarily. In the history of India we find there were two fights: one with Rāvaṇa and another the Kurukṣetra fight. [break] Not at the whims of the leaders. He has got some idea and declare war and engage people. He is safe, now the people are dying. Therefore these leaders, this administration, they require to be guided by the first-class men. So everything will be possible, provided our, this heart is cleansed. And that can be done by this propagation of this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Then everything will be automatically done. So my request is that if we get some encouragement from the authorities, we can push this movement little more vigorously. Otherwise we have no source. We simply sell our books, and whatever we get by that, we maintain ourself, we publish again books, or we open new center. There is no encouragement from the authorities. [break] But very important movement. And try to understand it and if possible help us. Mayor: All right. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our request. Bring prasāda. If you have got any further enquiry, I can try to... Mayor: No, I really don't think I do, and I think I'd like to learn more about your movement too. But I have enjoyed having to talk and listen to you and I appreciate it. Prabhupāda: No, put it here. He'll take. Take this prasāda. They are all fruits, innocent. In your country you have got so many nice fruits. Mayor: Yes, we do. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And grains and milk. So much nice things. You can avoid meat*-eating very easily, as they have given up. Mayor: It looks very good, but I (indistinct) with a knife. (laughter) Viṣṇujana: Someone is bringing a fork. Prabhupāda, perhaps we could provide him with some of our literature and that will inform him more about our movement. Prabhupāda: Yes, give him. Mayor: All right, thank you. Prabhupāda: So, Jagadīśa, you give whatever... You take his... Give him some fork. *Mayor: I had some cake over at the temple on Emerson Street, so I'm being well*-fed this morning. [break] Viṣṇujana: ...park areas where a lot of young people go for their summertime. And we'll be putting on our program right there in the park. We'll be chanting with our simple instruments. We'll want to serve some simple vegetarian, like a drink and some fruit, and discuss this philosophy amongst young people. We find that very successful all over the colleges in the country. And we think that around the Great Lakes here it will be very successful. Prabhupāda: Now, we want this house just to keep them for sometimes with our association. That is temporary, for one hour or two hours, but I wish they should come and live with us for some time. Then it will be effective, more effective. That is... Therefore I wanted a house like this. Mayor: Well, I think I probably should be getting on. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me this morning. Prabhupāda: And I also thank you for your kindly coming here, taking... Mayor: It's an honor to meet you. Prabhupāda: So you can keep his card. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] Śrī Govinda: ...to your wife. Mayor: My wife may take it away from me. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So you can take another for your wife. Mayor: No, this is fine. Thank you very much. We'll see you all. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (mayor leaves) Now, try to get this house from the... He can... If he likes, he can do it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They're in a position. They have many such buildings, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If not this building, they could give an alternate building. Prabhupāda: Yes. But this is very good building. We can keep five hundred men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They also seem to have their eyes on it. (Prabhupāda laughs) Bhavānanda: This is a very wealthy community. Prabhupāda: Oh, wealthy community. So invite all the young men to come and live with us for some time, and simply chanting, dancing, and give them prasādam. And if they like, they can read the books. Give this chance. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Of course, it would be beneficial if we had such a big building, but why can't we do it with the present building? Prabhupāda: We cannot accommodate many men there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But at least we should be able to attract them. Prabhupāda: Then you do this. Do this. This is the only means to save. Otherwise, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. There is no other second alternative. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The point I am bringing up, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that just like the program you're proposing, practically speaking... Prabhupāda: My idea is I want to draw the attention of the authorities. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Prabhupāda: You see? If they cooperate, then we can push on our movement more vigorously. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So with our present location here we cannot... Prabhupāda: No, no, that you can do in a larger scale. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I see. Prabhupāda: We are doing it. In a small scale it is going on, but if we get some support of the authorities, we can push on in larger scale. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is the idea. We are not going to stop for anything. We are going on with our movement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. So the point is we need a larger scale... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: And we need help from the government. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, right. Prabhupāda: And if there is good result, then government will... Just like they have thought Maharishi's movement is... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they are supporting, the government is supporting that movement. Prabhupāda: We are not being supported, why? We have not come to the notice of the government. (end) Morning Walk Excerpt -- July 5, 1975, Chicago Jayatīrtha: He's a graduate of Princeton University, a very big, big university. Brahmānanda: I think he was the president of his class. Prabhupāda: He is president? Jayatīrtha: He was the president of his class at Princeton. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...distribution he is right man. *Jayatīrtha: Yes. Sat's men are hand*-picked. It takes a very special devotee to be able to speak with these professors intelligently. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Jayatīrtha: At the library convention in San Francisco we had that booth there. So I went to see them and they appeared very professional with their suits and their wigs. Brahmānanda: Successful? Jayatīrtha: Yes. (end) Morning Walk -- July 5, 1975, Chicago *Prabhupāda: (in car) ...saṁsāre māyāra janeiya, moha janeiya, jīva ke karaye gadha. This māyāra vaibhava, this material advancement is advancement of māyā. Big, big building, nice road, nice motor car, nice... Surely it is material advancement, admitted. But this advancement is advancement of the illusory energy. So what is the wrong there? Suppose... The wrong is there that this material world is temporary. We have come here temporarily, say twenty*-five years, fifty years or at most, hundred years. So we are already illusioned and we become more illusioned. Then we forget our real business. Mūḍha, we remain mūḍha. Supposing if there is next birth, so who is very much anxious to know what is our next birth? Nobody is. Blindly going on. māyāra vaibhava. [break] ...very nice church, but understand what for this church is, what is God, what is God consciousness. Just cultivate this knowledge. "No, big church finished." Live nice building, nice happy life, but don't forget Kṛṣṇa. Then what is the use of this life? And if you forget Kṛṣṇa, then the result will be crime, and you will be facing with problems, "Why and now what to do?" So many problems will be there. So the problems cannot be solved simply by possessing big, big buildings. Jagadīśa: Shall we get out and walk, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Any way. Jagadīśa: Do you want to walk. Prabhupāda: Yes. But how we will walk if it is dripping? Brahmānanda: It's raining. We can ride along the beach... [break] Prabhupāda: ...saṁsāre, moha janmeiva, jīva ke karaye gadha. There are so many churches. Jayatīrtha: This is a special area, Jagadīśa? There are so many churches. All over America there are very expensive churches. In India you do not see so many temples. I was surprised when I went there first. Because you do not see very many big, gorgeous, temples. But here everywhere there are big gorgeous churches. Prabhupāda: Oh, no, India, in South India... Brahmānanda: South India is full. Jayatīrtha: Oh, South India. North India not. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have not seen Jagannātha temple? Jayatīrtha: No. Prabhupāda: Beginning from Madras, very big, big temples. In Vṛndāvana also, that Raṅganātha temple? Jayatīrtha: Yes. There are some nice temples in the north. Prabhupāda: In south, many. (sings:) Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Prabhu... These are all university house or private? Jagadīśa: Some university and some private. After here, these are private homes. Prabhupāda: All very nice house. Brahmānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Let them, every house, small temple, perform kīrtana. Then this will be all success. Do not cook meat. Nice prasādam. Everything can be utilized for better purpose. Now, in the morning, they are sleeping. Nidrāya hriyate naktaṁ vyavayena ca vā vayaḥ [SB 2.1.3]. At night either sleeping or sex, and daytime, divā carthehaya rājan kutumba*-bharaṇena vā [SB 2.1.3]. Daytime, "Where is money? Where is money?" Oh, seventy miles' speed. "Go there. There is some money." All right, take money. Then what is your next business? Kutumba-bharaṇena vā. Just to purchase for the family, finish money. Again tomorrow. "But where is the business of your spiritual life?" "No time. What can we do? Night we are busy in this way, and day we are busy. Where is the time? Don't bother us." (laughs) Divā carthehaya rājan kutumba-bharaṇena vā [SB 2.1.3]. [break] ...try to make them devotees, they will not become? Jayatīrtha: Not very easily. Prabhupāda: Jayatīrtha: Amenities. [break] Prabhupāda: It is good you have done this, but make this Kṛṣṇa consciousness also one of the paraphernalia. Then it is very nice. But they are not inclined. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Jagadīśa: ...newspaper there were pictures only. Brahmānanda: So do you have the clippings? Jagadīśa: Yeah, it's posted. Prabhupāda: Every house, however poor he may be... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Go along the north shore, where the Bahai temple is. That's very... [break] Jayatīrtha: About, a big town has got maybe ten television stations. [break] ...means of enjoyment are available. Prabhupāda: Center variety is crime. Jayatīrtha: (laughs) That's becoming very popular. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: In Time magazine they say that by the time the child is fifteen years old he will have seen eleven thousand murders on television. Jayatīrtha: In Detroit one out of every thousand people gets murdered every year. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Jayatīrtha: In Detroit-that's the biggest crime city in America*-one out of every thousand people gets murdered every year. If you live there for fifty years, you have one chance in twenty of being murdered. [break] Prabhupāda: Prosperous. The business is slaughterhouse. All butchers. (laughs) Brahmānanda: The butcher community. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we were recently looking at a very big house in Detroit. It's a mansion. It's got much already onyx, marble. They say to build it again today would cost six million dollars. They are just asking for 350,000 dollars. It has... Prabhupāda: Why? Jagadīśa: Why? Because it's such a huge place and it's not in a very exclusive neighborhood. It's surrounded by a six foot high stone wall. It's on four acres of land. And in the room that... Prabhupāda: Six million? Jagadīśa: To rebuild it because of all the onyx, marble. There is $100,000 worth of gold leafing work throughout the house. Brahmānanda: What was it used as? Jagadīśa: It was the Fisher Mansion. Fisher, you know, "Body by Fisher." And the man was a little eccentric. It's a Moorish style. Prabhupāda: Now it is not raining. We can go. Brahmānanda: Yes, we can go. Stop here. [break] Prabhupāda: ...price there are? Jagadīśa: 350,000. Prabhupāda: So it is very cheap. Brahmānanda: Yes. What is the neighborhood? Jagadīśa: It is just south of... Jayatīrtha: It has a big stone fence, though. Jagadīśa: ...the wealthiest neighborhood. It's about six blocks away. Brahmānanda: Is it a crime place? Jagadīśa: No. Jayatīrtha: In Detroit... [break] Prabhupāda: ...also, there is threatening of life. Some brāhmaṇa boys who were living with us, so they were threatened, "You are living with these mlecchas. If you don't give up, then your life is in danger." So they have gone to Māyāpur. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? Jayatīrtha: The Sastris. Prabhupāda: Some brāhmaṇa boys, they came and joined. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah, those boys. Oh. And the other brāhmaṇas threatened. Prabhupāda: Yes, they threatened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You got a report? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...happy that we're taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...brāhmaṇas. are sensing danger because they see that these Europeans are worshiping Deity, temple. Then gradually there will be no caste brāhmaṇa. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...Mahāprabhu also had difficulty with the caste brāhmaṇas? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They complained to the magistrate that "What kind of religion He is introducing? It is not our Hindu religion. So chastise Him." [break] ...report of the brāhmaṇas, the police came and broke these drums. It was not the fault of the Mohammedans. The brāhmaṇas lodged complaint against Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So he has to take step. They said, "It is not Hindu religion. They are disturbing God by chanting so loudly. (laughter) Now the God is sleeping and they are disturbing, 'Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So stop this." So what can he do? After all, he is public servant. Therefore he took steps. [break] *Ghanaśyāma (Bhakti-tīrtha): I've just come back from England, myself and another boy who was doing library work there. We went there after India, the festival. And so many very important schools all around the world, that are known all around the world are taking your books. Our last day was one of our most amazing days. We went to the Indian office library, the British government. Because they have colonized India, they have so many books on India. This was the largest library like that in Europe. And the librarian, he looked at our books and he says, "Yes, we should have all of these." So right on the spot he ordered standing orders, one copy of every book. That same day-this was just three days ago, two days ago*-we went to the big... Prabhupāda: That is Aldridge, Aldridge? Ghanaśyāma: Yes. This was another one. Aldridge, yes. You have seen that letter? Yes. Prabhupāda: No, I have not seen any letter. Ghanaśyāma: But you know Aldridge? Prabhupāda: Yes, I went to see the ambassador. Ghanaśyāma: Yes, he is very favorable. The biggest book store in the world. They're so big, they have three blocks. They take up sort of like three blocks. And they have three levels, three floors. So we went to see the manager, the man who owns the whole book store. And he says, "Well, I only deal with rare books." We says, "Well, this is why we've come to see you." And he says, "I want three copies of every book." Prabhupāda: Very good. So they have ordered? Ghanaśyāma: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very good. Ghanaśyāma: Just in a matter of four, about seven to eight weeks over a hundred professors have taken your books there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Standing order? Ghanaśyāma: No, about ten have taken standing orders, but others have taken books to use for their courses or for their own reading and for their own edification. Big schools like Cambridge, Oxford, as soon as they see the books, they really want them. Prabhupāda: This is the rarest book. Not only rare, but rarest. There is no book throughout the whole world, such book. [break] *Ghanaśyāma: ...professor, he was reading your Bhagavad*-gītā, it was on his desk when I came into his office. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Ghanaśyāma: Yeah. He says, "Oh, yes, I know the Bhaktivedanta books. I have just got this book from one of my colleagues." And he says, I showed him the books. He wanted the standing order. He teaches Sanskrit and Indian religions and Indian philosophy. And he said, "Well, there's one book I was just reading. Bhaktivedanta, he mentions the *Nectar of Devotion*." He says that "You didn't show me that. Do you have that one?" (Prabhupāda laughs) So I brought the books back to him that same day. And when I brought them, his students, they were in class and they came out of the class and they started looking at the books themselves. And they really wanted to be showed they could have a chance to read them in their course. They were really happy that he was buying them. They said, "Oh, these are the Kṛṣṇa consciousness books. We've read some of these before. These are really nice." [break] *Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa, his all sinful reactions stopped. Kṛṣṇeti varṇa*-dvayam. Rūpa Gosvāmī says, "What nectar is there in these two alphabets, kṛṣ-ṇa!" Kṛṣṇeti varṇa-dvayam. [break] ...greater enthusiasm you go on with book distribution. They will be benefited, and distributors also will be benefited. Kṛṣṇa says, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68]. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. If you want to become quickly recognized by Kṛṣṇa, then make propaganda, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And once recognized by Kṛṣṇa, then your going back to home, back to Godhead, guaranteed. [break] ...took from London to here come? Ghanaśyāma: How many hours? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ghanaśyāma: One the plane it took about ten hours. Prabhupāda: Ten hours. From London to Chicago. Not much, ten hours. [break] ...staying at Bhaktivedanta Manor? No. Ghanaśyāma: We stayed there most of the time. And the first two weeks we stayed at Bury Place because there are about six schools that are in walking distance from the Bury Place temple. Prabhupāda: So everything is going right? Ghanaśyāma: Oh, yes, cultivating very nice. The president there, he is taking out the saṅkīrtana party himself, and the whole temple has become very enthused by this. Bury Place. Prabhupāda: How many devotees are there? Ghanaśyāma: Bury Place, there's about... There are three traveling saṅkīrtana parties. There are about maybe thirty devotees there. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. And Bhaktivedanta Manor? *Ghanaśyāma: I think about maybe thirty*-five. Some of the boys go to Scotland frequently. So they sort of share the devotees with the three temples. Prabhupāda: Edinburgh. So you have been in Edinburgh University? Ghanaśyāma: No. I don't know. Prabhupāda, they have a program there with the Indians. The Indians are supporting the temple there now. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Ghanaśyāma: The Indians, they're paying for the devotees' prasādam and supporting the temple. *Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Anna*-dāna. Ghanaśyāma: They make vows to give a certain amount to help the devotees out every week. They have a big chart. One Indian might make a vow that he will pay for all the wheat or all the breakfast prasāda for the devotees for that month, and he'll give that much money. (Prabhupāda laughs) It's very nice. They kind of compete with each other to see who's doing the most. They go out and make life members. They make, sometimes, five, six life members in one day. Prabhupāda: So we shall go further? Our time is up. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 6:30 now. Prabhupāda: Oh, then we must go. [break] Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes we have heard that ekādaśī is a inauspicious alignment of the planets and therefore one has to counteract this inauspiciousness by more chanting. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, no. It is the most auspicious. And chanting is more effective. [break] Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember you were instructing once that all of your initiated disciples should chant twenty*-five rounds... Prabhupāda: Minimum. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Minimum on this day. Is that a rule that we should all follow in our temples? Prabhupāda: We are sixteen rounds. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I mean on ekādaśī. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Ekādaśī, simply you should chant. No other business. Nirjala. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No preaching work? Should they go out for preaching? *Prabhupāda: No, those who are preaching, not for them. Those who are sitting idle, or they... (laughter) [break] ...has no other regulation, simply preaching. A preacher is so exalted. He hasn't got to follow any regulation. But don't take it. (laughter) And actually if one is busy in preaching work, that is first*-class. [break] ...not my manufactured word, my Guru Mahārāja, that the... That Mādhava Mahārāja, when he was a brahmacārī, his name was Hayagrīva. So he was to go somewhere. So but he was sick. Guru Mahārāja was informed that he was sick and "Today is ekādaśī. He cannot take his regular meals." So Guru Mahārāja said, "No. Let him take immediately meals and go." Revatīnandana: For preaching. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...Mahārāja would sacrifice everything for preaching. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. [break] He was not pleased with Bon Mahārāja, He could not do anything. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...most pleased with you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We must be sure of that. *Prabhupāda: Unless he is pleased, what I am worth? It is due to his pleasure. Otherwise what I am worth? Everyone says, "You have done wonderful." What can I do wonderful? It is by his pleasure it is going on. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. [break] Bon Mahārāja has written that, last line? Brahmānanda: That your accomplishment has been very great. He had to admit. (Prabhupāda laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He admitted it publicly. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No. He has written me a letter. I invited him. [break] Now, he has returned. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he has returned. (end) Room Conversation with Lt. Mozee, Policeman -- July 5, 1975, Chicago Śrī Govinda: Lt. Mozee. Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. Śrī Govinda: He's with the Chicago police department, and he's in charge of developing their relationship with the media. And I was thinking there could be nice discussion with him concerning your ideas about stopping crime. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. So I shall explain or he will enquire? Jayatīrtha: Would you like to ask some questions or have him explain? Lt. Mozee: Well, no, I understand the spiritual leader had some ideas on how to prevent crime, how to do these things. I might inquire after he gives his ideas. I understand you read the... Prabhupāda: It is not idea, it is fact that one man is very pious and one man is very vicious. What is the difference? The difference is: one is dirty in his heart and one is pure in his heart. So if you keep people dirty, then there will be crimes. This is the sign that the general people, they are dirty. So you have to purify the dirty things, diseased condition. Then things will be all right. So our simplest process is to assemble in congregation and chant the holy name of God. Then dirty things will go away. So if you want to stop crime, then you have to arrange for mass saṅkīrtana. That is our movement. Gather people as large as can be possible and congregationally chant the holy name of God. Then it will be all right. Lt. Mozee: Do you have any feeling about the crime here in the United States as opposed to the crime in your own land? Prabhupāda: Crime, what is your definition of crime? Lt. Mozee: Any infraction against one person by another person. Any trampling on the rights of one person by another person can be a crime or should be a crime. Prabhupāda: Yes. Our definition is the same in the Upaniṣad, that everything belongs to God. As you think everything belongs to the state, we think everything belongs to God. So you can utilize your possession, what is alloted to you. Don't encroach upon others. So people are not thinking in that way. First beginning is that you Americans, you are thinking this America land is your, although two hundred years ago it was not your. You have come from other parts of the world. Now you are claiming it is your land. But actually it is God's land. So God's land belongs to everyone. Everyone is God's children. That is our broad conception. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam: [Īśo mantra 1] "Everything belongs to God." So people have no conception of God. Everyone is practically godless. Therefore they should be educated about God. Just like the Communists. They are educating godlessness. Similarly... Just like in America they say, your government says, "We trust in God." Is it not? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: But where is the education about God? Simply, trust is also good, very good, but simple trust will not endure unless you know scientifically what is God. Everyone knows that he has got a father, but he does not know who is his father. That knowledge is not perfect. Everyone who is born in this material world must have a father, but that is not sufficient suggestion. One must know who is father. That education is lacking. Lt. Mozee: Do you feel, sir, that it is lacking only here in the United States? Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Lt. Mozee: Everywhere. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. This is the age of forgetting God. We say it is Kali*-yuga. Kali-yuga means the age of misunderstanding. And that is, I said, dirty things within the heart. So God is so powerful that if we chant the holy name of God, then we become purified. So our movement is based on this principle, chant the holy name of God. We give all facilities to everyone without any distinction that "You come with us. Come in our temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and take little prasādam, refreshment, and gradually you become purified." So if the government authorities give us facilities for this business, that we hold mass saṅkīrtana, Hare Kṛṣṇa, and give them little prasādam, then we are sure the whole place will change. Lt. Mozee: If I understand you then correctly, sir, you would say that the emphasis should be returned to the religious aspects. Prabhupāda: Certainly. Without religious aspect what is the difference between dog and man? Man can be turned to be a religious man, the dog cannot be. That is the difference between dog and man. So if you keep the human society to the status of dogs and cats, how you can expect peaceful society? If you bring one dozen of dogs and if you want to keep them peacefully, is it possible? So if we keep human society as dogs, then how you can expect peacefulness? Lt. Mozee: Some of my questions might sound disrespectful. If they do it is only because I do not understand completely your religious beliefs, and I mean no disrespect whatsoever. Prabhupāda: No, it is not my religious belief. I am just giving you general description of religious life and animal life. The animal cannot be taken to the churches and teach something about God. It is not possible. But a human being can be. So if the human being is refused this facility, then you keep them as cats and dogs. And you cannot expect any peaceful condition of life in the society of cats and dogs. So therefore it is the duty of the authority, of the government, of the elderly person, father, guardian, to teach the subordinate how to become God conscious. Otherwise, there will be trouble because there is no difference between dogs and man in every respect. The dog eats, we eat. The dog sleeps, we sleep. The dog have sex, we have sex. The dog also tries to defend itself, we also try to defend ourself. These are common factors. The only difference is the dog cannot be instructed about his relation with God, but man can be instructed. Lt. Mozee: It would seem to me that in the days that we live in, I would say that the wolf, the animal, wolf, has more peacefulness than man. The wolf does not encroach upon another's territory... Prabhupāda: Then you can say a stone has got more peacefulness than man. Lt. Mozee: In today's society. Prabhupāda: Yes, you keep a stone a stone. That's all right. Wolf may be qualified with peacefulness, but after all, it is animal. You cannot say because it is peaceful for the time being, therefore it is not animal. It is animal. Lt. Mozee: Wouldn't that sort of peace be a precursor to a return to religion? Must we not first have peace? Prabhupāda: No, no. That is the difficulty. We do not know the meaning of religion. At the present moment the human society does not know what is the meaning of religion. The meaning of religion is to abide by the laws of God, just like a good citizen means who abides by the laws of the state, of the government. Because we have no understanding of God, therefore we do not know what is the laws of God, and therefore we do not know what is religion. That is the present status of the human society. They are forgetting religion. They take religion as a kind of faith. Faith may be blind faith. Faith is not the real description of religion. Religion means the laws which is given by God, and anyone who follows the laws, he is religious. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or a Hindu or Muslim. If he follows the laws of God, then he is religious. Lt. Mozee: Again I say I mean no disrespect, but in India, where the religious customs have been followed for centuries upon centuries, we are seeing a, not a return, but we are seeing a drawing away. We are seeing a drawing away from the spiritual world and the spiritual life in today's society. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is due to bad leadership. Otherwise, Indian mass of people, they are fully conscious of God and they try to follow the laws of God, the mass of people. Here even the big, big professor, they do not believe in God, they do not believe in next life. But India, even the poorest man, he knows that "There is God. There is next life. If I commit sinful life I will suffer. If I live piously, then I shall enjoy." Even the low*-grade society, social man, he believes it. Still if there is some disagreement, the village people go to the temple for settlement, and the opposite parties will hesitate to speak lies before the temple, still. So in that respect India is still 80 percent religious, 80 percent religious. That is the special privilege of taking birth in India. That is a fact. Lt. Mozee: Sir, do you think that the wealth of the United States and some certain other countries would be a block to spiritual faith? In Christianity there is a parable that "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to come before the throne of God." Would wealth in itself be a block toward spiritual awareness? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Too much wealthy condition is a block. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām. If one is very materially opulent, he forgets God. Therefore, to be too much materially rich is a disqualification for understanding God. Although there is no more impediment, that "Only the poor man will understand God and rich man will not understand," it is not that. But generally, if one is extraordinarily rich or his one aim is only to acquire money, it is difficult for him to understand God. Bhogaiśvarya... Find out this verse, Jayatīrtha: Christ says that "The meek shall inherit the earth." Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jayatīrtha: "The meek shall inherit the earth." Because they're meek therefore everything will come to them. Prabhupāda: What is that? Brahmānanda: Lt. Mozee: Um hm. Well, those who believe in our country in Christianity believe these things. I don't see the vast differences between the spiritual belief of one religious group as opposed to another. Prabhupāda: We don't say that. We don't say that. We say that you follow any religious system. Doesn't matter. But you understand God and love Him. That is our propaganda. We do not say that "You are Christian. This is not good. You come here." We do not say. Why say? Everything is... But our proposition is that either you are Christian or Muslim or Hindu, it doesn't matter. You understand God and love Him, that's all. Lt. Mozee: I recognize, sir, that your time is very valuable and I won't delay you much longer. If I could return to my original purpose for coming in the..., what words you may have that would assist us, my superintendent and my department, in the reduction of crime, other than, I recognize, that the first and the foremost way would be a return to God as you said, that there is no doubt about that. But is there something else that you may know or that you may feel that you may be able to say that would assist us in a reduction less than the ideal? Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already in the beginning said, that give us facilities, the authorities, to chant the holy name of God and distribute prasādam. Prasādam means... Lt. Mozee: Yes, I understand. Prabhupāda: ...some refreshment as remnants of foodstuff of God. Then it will make tremendous change. I came from India alone; now I have got so many followers. So what did I do? I did the same thing. I asked them to sit down, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and distribute them little prasādam. This should be done in a mass scale, and then things will become very peaceful. It is fact. So I want little cooperation of the authorities to give me the facility, how I can call many men together, chant together Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and I supply them little refreshment, that's all. Lt. Mozee: I will definitely convey your message to my superiors. Prabhupāda: So you give us this facility. Lt. Mozee: Where would you...? Do you have any ideas where you would want...? Prabhupāda: Yes, yesterday the mayor of this place came. Here is a house vacant. So if we get this house, then we can begin in a mass scale. The America is not poor. So at least on experimental stage the government or the municipality can give us this house and arrange for some prasādam. Simple prasāda we give, not costly. We don't use meat or anything. Lt. Mozee: Yes, sir. Prabhupāda: Vegetable, grains, that's all. But something must be given. This is our program. So I saw yesterday the mayor. He came also very kindly. And you have come. So you consult yourself. This place or any place, give us some facility and see the result. Lt. Mozee: Would you say that it should be done in an area of affluence or an area of poverty to begin with? Prabhupāda: No, we have no distinction, such, but a place which is easily available for all kinds of men, that is very nice. There is no such condition that the only poor man will take benefit and the rich man, they do not require. Everyone requires. Do you think that the criminality is only in the poorer section? Lt. Mozee: Oh, no. Prabhupāda: Then? Everyone is a criminal, either he is a poor man or rich man. So we should not make such distinction, that only it is meant for the poor man. Lt. Mozee: No, the distinction I was attempting to draw was would there be more benefit, would there be more of an influence, or would there be more of a strengthening if it were in an area of affluence rather than an area of poverty or vice versa? Prabhupāda: No, no, no, that's... Our treatment is for the diseased person. So diseased person does not make any distinction of poor man and rich man. Rich man is also diseased, and poor man is also diseased, and everyone should be admitted in the hospital. So hospital should be in such a place where the poor man and rich man, both of them can come because all of them are diseased. So when one comes to the hospital there is no such thing as a poor man's hospital or rich man's. Hospital is hospital. And everyone being diseased, everyone should take advantage. But the difficulty is, as we are quoting the passage, that rich man, he thinks that he is not diseased. Although he is diseased number one, but he thinks that he is not diseased. That is the difficulty of the rich man. But we are thinking everyone is diseased. And you know better than me being police. There are criminality amongst rich men and poor men alike. Lt. Mozee: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: So our process is to cleanse the heart, not the opulence or poverty. No, that is not our... To cleanse the heart. If the poor man is cleansed in his heart he will not touch anybody's property. I heard that King, Emperor Edward VII, his habit was to steal. Lt. Mozee: Yes, he was a kleptomaniac. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: And I have known many instances. In Calcutta one very rich man's son in the evening he would take his bath and dress nicely, and he would go to the Howrah station and beg, cheat men: "I have lost my purse. Will you kindly help me?" And any gentleman: "He has lost..." And he will go to the restaurant and eat and go home. That was his habit. He was a very rich man, but his habit was this. So we have to change the habit by changing the heart. You know very well. Many thieves, they have committed many times theft and put into the jail. So he knows that "If I commit theft, I will go to the jail." He has practically seen it, and he knows it. Still, he steals. Why? Because heart is unclean. So this process will cleanse the heart. Unless he cleans the heart, you cannot stop criminality simply by laws. Laws are already known. The professional thief, he knows the law. The professional murderer, he knows the law. But still, he commits because heart is unclean. And our process, to cleanse the heart. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], it is Sanskrit, "Cleansing the heart." Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam, "Then all the troubles of this material world will be solved." Lt. Mozee: A very difficult task, sir. *Prabhupāda: It is not difficult, very simple task. To ask them "Please come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance, and take sumptuously prasādam, go home"*-where is the difficulty? And they are coming; *we are doing that. But we are doing-because we have no money*-we are doing on a small scale. But if the government gives us facility we can expand this scale. That's all. We are collecting money... Of course we are doing our business by selling these books. We have got many books. And we are inviting men; they are coming, and gradually increasing. There is no dearth of men or devotees. But the government is faced with these difficulties, "Crime, why and what to do?" So we are suggesting this: because they are unclean in their heart, therefore there is crime and take this process, it will be successful. This is our... They are faced with the problem, "Why crime and what to do?" And we are giving the answer. So you take advantage of it. Why? We are saying, "Because they are godless." And what to do? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam. Now, if you like, you can take. Otherwise, we are doing our own business. Just like a poor medical man. He is also giving medicine. But if he is given facility, he can open a big hospital. So that is our proposition. We are already doing that business. But if we get facility from the authorities then we can open a big place, a big hospital. And the problem is already big. Otherwise, why they are saying, "What to do?" Lt. Mozee: Well, there are... Prabhupāda: No civil state wants this criminality. That's a fact. But they do not know how to stop it. That we can suggest. We are good advisor. Now, the government is the executor. So if they take our advice and execute it, then things will be done nicely. Lt. Mozee: There are countless numbers in the United States of large facilities of the Christian faith, and, like you, they give the refreshment of the holy communion. Why does this not work? Why is this not cleansing the heart? *Prabhupāda: The answer is... Then we come to the details. So you say, "Christian," and I find to find out a Christian. I find difficulty to find out one Christian. I must frankly say, because the so*-called Christians, they do not abide by the Bible's order that in the Christian's Bible it is said, "Thou shall not kill." and where is a Christian who does not kill? So this can be effective only persons who are practicing religion. So these persons, they are trained to practice. So their chanting of the holy name of God and others' are different. [break] It is not simply a rubber stamp position. It must be practiced, realized. This chanting of holy name by our men who are trained up and the same chanting by others will be different. Of course, if you... [break] ...your Hindu principle. That is secular state, not to remain callous: "Whatever you like you can do. We have no concern to see." That is not government's duty. *Lt. Mozee: Sir, isn't the difficulty, rather, that the group of, I want to call them, hard*-core group, the priests, the devotees, the followers, the little circle of people, have always been the ones that have followed the practices, but the fringe... Assume for example that Hare Kṛṣṇa grew to gigantic proportions as Christianity has grown. Would not it be the problem that the fringe areas, the ones who were not, who professed to be the followers... Would not they be the difficulty as the Christian is today? You have said that you... Prabhupāda: Yes, that possibility is always there. But my proposal is that if you are not true Christian, then your preaching will not be effective. I don't say that now we are strictly following and we will not fall down in future. I don't say that. That fall down propensity, tendency is always there. But my proposal is that unless one is strictly follower of the principles, his preaching will not be effective. That is my charge. Lt. Mozee: Yes. Well sir, again I thank you for your time. I thank you for this interview. And I thank you for the opportunity to find out more about the group that is Hare Kṛṣṇa. And I will deliver this tape recording to my superiors. Hopefully, hopefully it will be effective... Prabhupāda: Thank you. Lt. Mozee: ...as you are effective. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Prasādam. No, give him more. (laughter) Lt. Mozee: This is what? Upendra: Sandeśa. Jayatīrtha: Made from milk. Prabhupāda: There are so many program... Lt. Mozee: Like a cheese? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Lt. Mozee: A sweet cheese. Devotees: Yes, sweet cheese. More? Lt. Mozee: No, this is fine, thank you. Prabhupāda: You take one more of this cheese. Lt. Mozee: All right. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Give the devotees. Lt. Mozee: Just a personal question, how long has your group been in the United States? Prabhupāda: I came here in 1965. But for one year there was no program; I was loitering only. And then, in 1966, July, I registered this society in New York, and gradually these students... I rented one storefront in New York, Second Avenue, and in this way practically it was started in 1966. Then in 1967 I was attacked with heart attack. Then I returned India. Then again I came back in 1968. So practically the movement is going on regularly from 1968. Yes. *Lt. Mozee: Do you find that you have*-again, a personal thing-do you find that you are having difficulty disassociating yourself with false prophets like the Guruji? Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept. We don't. Because... Lt. Mozee: I mean disassociating your group with a man like that. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Certainly, we disassociate. We have no very good opinion. Lt. Mozee: It would seem to me that it would be a very difficult thing... Prabhupāda: Yes, for others to distinguish. Lt. Mozee: Yes. Prabhupāda: But one has to see by the result. Lt. Mozee: Um hm. Prabhupāda: Phalena paricīyate. It is very difficult to distinguish which is good medicine, which is bad medicine. By the effect. Thank you. Lt. Mozee: I thank you for your time, sir. Prabhupāda: Give him this garland. Lt. Mozee: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] I saw on the airplane. So it has struck me, yes, that this is the position of the human society. Lt. Mozee: Yeah, Govinda dāsa told me that you had read this on your way in, so I brought a copy. I didn't know whether you wanted to quote from it. But I was ready to be prepa... I was prepared. Prabhupāda: You have read it? Lt. Mozee: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: It is a problem. Actually it is a problem. Such a rich state as America, and there is crime. It does not look well. Yes. Lt. Mozee: Hm. True. It's our number one problem. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is the solution. Lt. Mozee: It's our number one problem. Now, when the people see the politician and the affluent stealing they say, "Why not? It's good for them; it's good for me." Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end) Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago Śrī Govinda: They would like to interview you and tape record possibly for using in one of their magazines. Prabhupāda: Jayatīrtha, you can come here. If required, you will reply. What is that? Jayatīrtha: This is the article that Mrs. Wax has written, and it was published in Harper's. It's one of the big national magazines. It's about Gurukula. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayatīrtha: It's nicely written. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayatīrtha: It's called "Raise Your Hand if You're an Eternal Spirit Soul." Prabhupāda: Oh. Mrs. Wax: Thank you. It's an honor to be here. Because I wrote the article about Gurukula, I'm interested in what has happened there. I was there last summer. Do you have plans for other schools? And what is happening with Gurukula now? Is it standing? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jayatīrtha: She wants to know what our plan is for Gurukula, whether we want to start other Gurukulas in other places... (child noises) Prabhupāda: (Aside:) Hmm, this child... So you can explain what is the idea of Gurukula. Jayatīrtha: (indistinct) ...talking of other things. Generally he likes to address more philosophical questions. Mrs. Wax: All right. Jayatīrtha: Because the questions about the future of the society. Others devotees can answer this. Well, the philosophical questions that are not daily (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: We want to raise first*-class man. Try to understand. The present society, we are creating fourth-class men. Therefore we are not in very happy condition. We want to raise the fourth-class man to first-class man. First-class man means with qualification who can control the mind, control the senses, always very cleansed and truthful, very simple, full of all kinds of knowledge, practical application in life, then to have full knowledge of God, these are the characteristics of first-class man. So at the present moment everyone is a fourth-class man. So we want to get some first-class men. That is required. Because there is no idea, first-class man, therefore people are becoming full of crimes. You have seen the article in the Time? "Crime, Why and What to Do?" That is the concern of the materialistic society. So we are trying to raise a group of men who will be ideal. Just like our devotees. You will find their characters different from all others, at least in your country. They do not have illicit sex, they do not eat meat, they do not have any intoxication, even smoking or taking tea, they do not indulge in gambling, they chant holy name of God, lead very simple life. So we are creating first-class men. There is need. It is not that everyone will become first-class man, but at least a section of man must be first-class so that others can see that what is the ideal character of man. So this Gurukula means from the childhood age we are training them so that in future it will be easier. That is the purpose of Gurukula. Mrs. Wax: The four natural divisions... I understand that at Vṛndāvana, that that will be an example to American society, but how can the four natural divisions of man be translated into American society? *Prabhupāda: It has to be. If you don't, then you must suffer with all these criminals. That is natural. Just like in your body there is head, and there is arm, and there is belly, and there is leg. The head is the most important part. Why? Why not all legs? Why there are different divisions? Similarly, in the human society, if we want to make it perfect, there must be head, there must be arm, there must be belly, there must be legs. So leg can walk, but leg cannot do the work of brain. So at the present moment we have got all walking men, no brain. Therefore the society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain in the society. That is the defect of modern civilization. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. According to quality and work, there are four divisions. (aside:) You can push it back. Four divisions. So similarly, four divisions must be there: a group of men, first-class; a group of men, administrators; a group of men, food producer; and a group of men, general worker. So the brain is the chief. If your body... There are other parts, but if your head is cut off, then what is the use of other parts? If your hand is cut off, you can live. If your leg is cut off, you can live. But if your head is cut off, then finished. So that is lacking in the present society, no brain how to guide, so that whole human... If the brain is there, then it can guide. It can ask the hand to work in a certain way, the leg to work in certain way, to eat in a certain way. Then the health of the whole body will be quite competent. But if there is no brain, then everything... Just like a man becomes mad when the brain is not working. Mrs. Wax: Who will decide what the propensities are, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Jayatīrtha: Who is to decide whether a person is first*-class, if they are a brāhmaṇa or whether they are kṣatriya or vaiśya? *Prabhupāda: The book of knowledge. You can read Bhagavad*-gītā. Find out, śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa. Jayatīrtha: *Prabhupāda: This is first*-class. Now śamo damaḥ... Śamaḥ means controlling the mind, mind is always peaceful. You can train. Then controlling the senses. Then truthful. Then full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life. These are the qualification of first-class man. Everything is there. If you train a boy to become first-class man, he can become first-class man. If you don't train, then he will become a debauch, criminal, disturbing. So we are training in the Gurukula to become first-class men. This is our aim. Unless in the society an ideal first-class man, then how one will become, or follow the ideal? There is no ideal. Now what is the idea of first-class man now? Can I ask you? What is your idea of first-class man? Whom do you call first-class man? *Jayatīrtha: Do you know any first*-class men? Mrs. Wax: I can't find any in the society. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: That is the defect. We have no idea who is first*-class man. Everyone is drunkard, everyone smoker, everyone is gambler, everyone is illicit sex, where is first-class man? So in the absence of first-class man there must be criminals. Aiye. So there is a need of first-class men, first-class men and second-class men. Third-class, fourth-class, fifth-class, they are automatically there. So at the present moment fourth-class, fifth-class men. Third-class is also very scarcely found, and there is no question of first-class, second-class. But as in the full body we require brain, we require arm, we require belly, we require leg... Everything is required for different purposes of work. But at the present moment there is no place for the first-class men. When we ask our students that "You become free from all these four classes of sinful activity: no illicit sex, no meat-eating," people laugh: "Oh, why you are asking?" They do not know what is the ideal man. They think, "Illicit sex, what is wrong there? Meat-eating, what is wrong there?" They do not know what is right and wrong. Therefore all fourth-class men. They cannot understand even what is the value of these things. So you cannot be happy with fourth-class men. At least there must be a section, first-class men. That we are trying to create, a first-class man from this Gurukula. *Mrs. Wax: The ten*-year-old boys who left Gurukula and went to Vṛndāvana and then went to Māyāpur, what will they...? They will be trained in the divisions there and come back? *Prabhupāda: No, that is the ideal, mind completely controlled, senses completely controlled, truthful and simple life. In this way they will be trained up gradually. And we have got one hundred books like that. If they read all these books and if they are trained up in their character, then they will be, in future, first*-class men. Mrs. Wax: Would you comment on the current political situation in India, what's happening right now? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that will happen everywhere because there is no first*-class man. Mrs. Wax: So it doesn't matter if Nārāyaṇa is successful? Prabhupāda: No. *Mrs. Wax: None of them are first*-class people is what you're saying. *Prabhupāda: They are politician. That also... All of them are fourth*-class men. The fighting is between two section of fourth-class men. They do not know what is first-class man. Although the Bhagavad-gītā is there, they do not know, neither do they care. Just like I was telling. When we propose that "No illicit sex, no meat eating," they laugh, "Hah! What is that?" But when they are put into trouble they say, "What to do?" When there is crime they say, "What to do?" They do not know how to tackle the situation because they are all third-class, fourth-class men. They do not know. They become disappointed. *Mrs. Wax: I realize that we're all considered spirit souls. But can a woman be first*-class if she... *Prabhupāda: Anyone can become first*-class. Woman can become first-class if she is chaste and very much attached to husband. And if the husband is first-class, she becomes first-class. Because woman's duty is to follow husband. So if the husband is first-class, the wife is first-class, if she sticks to the husband. *Mrs. Wax: But she can never be first*-class unless she has a first class husband. *Prabhupāda: No, she is first class by following faithfully husband. And if the husband is first*-class, then woman is first-class. Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Mrs. Wax: Glad to hear it. *Prabhupāda: But because women are less intelligent, they should remain dependent on first*-class father, first-class husband, and first-class son. Then she is first-class. That is the injunction. Woman should remain dependent in childhood upon first-class father, in youthhood upon first-class husband, and in old age upon first-class son. Woman is never independent. If she becomes independent, her life is not very good. She must agree to remain dependent on first-class father, first-class husband, and first-class son-three stages. Mrs. Wax: She must become dependent on her son because her husband would ideally become a sannyāsī. Is that...? *Prabhupāda: Yes. You will find that Kapiladeva is instructing mother. That picture you can show her. Third Canto? You see the picture in the cover? The first*-class son is instructing mother. Her husband has taken sannyāsa and gone away. The son, first-class son, is instructing mother. That is the book. You will find full instruction to the mother. You can read one of the passages. You can read, Nitāi, what He is instructing to His mother. The mother is questioning, and son is answering. Nitāi: Śrī bhagavān uvāca... Prabhupāda: The mother first of all inquired? No. Nitāi: Uh, you want me to start there. Prabhupāda: Devahūti? The mother's name is Devahūti. And the son is celebrated as "son of Devahūti." The son is famous with the mother's name. And mother is taking instruction from the son. This is ideal society. Nitāi: Prabhupāda: There is no purport of Devahūti? *Nitāi: "Here the word asad-indriya-tarṣaṇāt is significant. Asat means 'impermanent,' 'temporary,' and indriya means 'senses.' Thus asad-indriya-tarṣaṇāt means 'from being agitated by the temporarily manifest senses of the material body.' We are evolving through different statuses of material bodily existence sometimes in a human body, sometimes in an animal body*-and therefore the engagements of our material senses are also changing. Anything which changes is called temporary, or asat. We should know that beyond these temporary senses are our permanent senses, which are now covered by the material body. The permanent senses, being contaminated by matter, are not acting properly. Devotional service, therefore, involves freeing the senses from this contamination. When the contamination is completely removed and the senses act in the purity of unalloyed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we have reached the sad-indriya, or eternal sense activities. The eternal sensual activities are called devotional service, whereas temporary sensual activities are called sense gratification. Unless one becomes tired of material sense gratification, there is no opportunity to hear transcendental messages from a person like Kapila. Devahūti expressed that she was tired. Now that her husband had left home, she wanted to get relief by hearing the instructions of Lord Kapila." Prabhupāda: So this full book is the answer and question between mother and son. So, although she is mother, she has given birth to the child, but she has become now dependent on this child for good instruction. This is ideal society. Mrs. Wax: Thank you for answering my questions. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them prasādam. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (Indian man): How do you advise Indians who are here and who have fallen to some extent in the materialistic world? They did not leave... Basically, they left their homes, most of them, to educate themselves. When they came here, they educated themselves, and they don't want to go back. Basically, they have fallen into the materialistic world. What advice you render them so that they get out of these clutches and go back and serve here or in the country but they should be devotional to the Almighty God? *Prabhupāda: So there is no question of here and there. You can become advanced in spiritual life anywhere if you follow the principles. That we are teaching. We are opening centers all over the world. You take the advantage of our teaching, our books, our center. Then it will be all right. They are following, these Europeans and American boys. They are young boys. They are giving up meat-eating. Do you give up meat-eating? Why Indians, you should learn meat-eating? They are giving up, and you are learning to eat meat. This is the lesson, that these foreigners, they were accustomed to eat meat from the childhood, they are giving up, and you are eating meat. This is the instruction. Indians are drinking. They are giving up drinking. The lessons are already there. There is no question why. The lessons are already there, books are already there, the centers are already there. You learn and make your life purified. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. When we say, "No meat-eating," it is meant for everyone. Anyone who wants to become first-class man, it is necessary for him. And there is no question of Indian, European, American. You are committing so many sinful lives, and you want to become happy*-that is not possible. Now this paper Time is puzzled: "Crime and What to Do?" But they do not know... [break] Guest: ...here in America they are fighting to become independent. And also abortion. They are fighting that the abortion should be there. Now this your message, is conveyed through the reporters and I would like the reporter to assess the reaction from the masses here, whether Gurukula is sponsoring for the women liberation and equal rights... *Prabhupāda: No, no, you are asking solution of the question who is already in darkness. You should take instruction from Bhagavad*-gītā. You are asking women who are supposed to be dependent, and you are asking question from them. To answer will not be from them. The answer, the standard answer, you have to take from the book of knowledge, Bhagavad-gītā. Then the answer will be perfect. Jayatīrtha: But if the people complain that we send our children to Gurukula at five, but their children they kill before they have a chance to be born. And they say that we are inhuman. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jayatīrtha: The people in general, they say that we are inhuman because we send our children at five to Gurukula. But they do not think that they are killing their own children before they have a chance to be born. *Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore we say there is no first*-class men to guide. They are killing child within the womb. They are not given chance to come out and see the light. And we are putting children at five, so we are criminal. They are denying the right of birth. So these things are happening because there is no first-class brain. Yes? *Mr. Wax: In your many visits around the world do you see a desire among many men to try to improve, to become first*-class men? Prabhupāda: Yes, in your country there are so many. Mr. Wax: Is there a great desire around the world? We here are a small group. Prabhupāda: Everywhere, everywhere. In Africa also. Mr. Wax: There's hope for our world today? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, why we are trying unless there is hope? We are not hopeless. If you train... If you can train a monkey to dance according to your will, why not human being? You can train even a tiger in the circus; he will act as you desire. It is the question of training. If the animal can be trained, why not a human being? You must know how to train. That knowledge is lacking, how to train. That we are giving, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. *Guest (Indian man): Swamiji, I'll ask one last question. What advice do you give to a man of family? I am taking my case, I have four children, and they are, their ages, between six and thirteen. I have to see that they grow up nice, I have to see that they educate themself so that they are as according to you... I don't know. I don't call myself first*-class, second-class, third-class. As you said, there are no first-class men, second-class men. But then how, apart from making them first class that they should follow the religious...? *Prabhupāda: No, no, if you become first-class, and they will follow you. You remain last-class, and how you can train your first-class? (laughter) In the śāstra it is said, "Unless you can create first-class man, don't beget children." Pitā na sa syāj janani na sa syād gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. It is the duty of the father to raise his children first-class. Otherwise he should not become a father. That is contraceptive. Just like Vasudeva and Devakī. Formerly they were Vasus and they were asked by Brahmā to create progeny. So the husband and wife, they practiced austerities very severely. So then God appeared before them: "What do you want?" And they said that "We can enter into family life provided You become our son." No, "If we get a son like you." Then God said, "Where is second person like Me? So I shall become your son." Then, in next life, Devakī got Kṛṣṇa as his child. So every father and mother should take this vow, that "Unless our children become first-class, we don't want children." This is ideal. What is the use of begetting cats and dogs? You must have first-class children. That requires tapasya. So at least we should follow the standard, how to raise our children to become first-class. There is no current? You can get on the light. At the present moment, people cannot understand even that there is life after death. Most people. There is life after death*-they cannot understand, even big, big professors, big, big learned scholars. Everyone is thinking, "This body is accidental and when the body will be finished, everything is finished." That is the general understanding. But Bhagavad-gītā, you read. It is said, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: [Bg. 2.20] "After the destruction of the body, the soul is not destroyed." Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya navāni anyāṇi gṛhṇāti aparāṇi: [Bg. 2.22] "Just like when our dress becomes old enough not to be used, then we accept another dress, similarly, when this body is old enough, not workable, then we accept another body." These things are there. But who is trying to understand it? At least all our Indians, those who are born in India, wherefrom Bhagavad-gītā has come out, at least they should understand. But they are not understanding. They are interpreting Bhagavad-gītā in their own way. This is the difficulty. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people are taking advantage of that. So first-class man, he knows what is Bhagavad-gītā and tries to apply the teachings in practical life. Then you become first-class. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find first-class eating, first-class life, second-class eating, second-class life, third-class... Everything is there. So people should be trained up. Economic question? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. You produce food grain, anna, sufficiently. So there is immense land still. Say, in America, so much land is without any utilization, in Africa, in Australia. They are not being properly utilized. People are complaining, "Overpopulation." Now countries which are overpopulated, they are not allowed to utilize the vacant land, neither people are being trained how to produce food grain. They are being trained up, technology, to produce motor tire. And nobody is interested to produce food grain. So without taking food grains, they are killing animals, and they are eating, short cut. They do not know killing of animals is sinful activity. This is the... Man is advanced; *we can grow food. This killing of animals is for the non-civilized society. They cannot... They do not know how to grow food. They were killing animals. When man is advanced in his knowledge and education, why they should kill? Especially in America, we see so many nice foodstuffs. Fruits, grains, milk. And from milk, you can get hundreds of nice preparations, all nutritious. In our New Vrindaban we are doing that-rabri, pera, burfi. The other farmers are surprised that from milk such nice preparation can be prepared. So instead of teaching them-you Indian, you know how to utilize milk and prepare so many nice preparation,*-you are learning how to eat meat. Why? So if you forget your culture and if you become victimized, that is your fault. You should teach them how to utilize milk. And if the cows are kept jubilant, they will deliver double milk. They know, "We shall be killed." They are always depressed. Therefore milk is not properly supplied. So that is stated in the Bhagavad..., er, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that during Mahārāja Yudhisthira's time the cows were so jubilant that milk was dropping from the milkbags, so much so that the pasturing grounds became muddy with milk. So if you keep... Killing of cows means utilizing the blood in different form. The milk is also another transformation of the blood. So if you take milk sufficiently and prepare nice foodstuff, then it is equally beneficial like the meat from health point of view. But one must know the..., learn that keep the cow living; *at the same time be benefited by the blood. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find this word kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Go-rakṣya. This animal has to be protected. Not other animals it is mentioned. And go, cow. So those who are meat-eaters, they can eat nonimportant animals. But cows should be given protection. This is the instruction. But in the western country the cows are specially being killed. Now the reaction is war, crime, and they are now repentant. And they will have to repent more and more. Jayatīrtha: So the wars and the crime are a direct result of the cow slaughter. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It is a wholesale reaction. All these crises are taking place. They are killing their own child. Own child means that child is criminal; *therefore it is being killed within the womb. Nature will take action. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. You are not independent. So if you work independently, then you will have to suffer. The law of nature is there. You cannot avoid it. If you infect some disease, you must suffer from the disease. You cannot avoid it. This is the law of nature. Law of nature is working in such a way that as you are infecting... Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Find out this verse. Why there are varieties of life. One is tree, one is cat, one is dog, one is human being, one is blind, one is lame, one is educated, one is foolish-why? Why the difference, varieties? And that is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya: "As you are infecting the modes of material nature, you are getting your birth." Otherwise, how you can explain by nature there are so many varieties of life, 8,400,000 species of life? Jayatīrtha: You mentioned several times that those persons who are guilty of abortion, then they also enter a womb, but they never leave it alive. They're also killed within the womb. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That means... That child is killed means it must take another birth. Again in the womb it will be killed. Again another womb. This is going on. Mūḍha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20]. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, "Birth after birth they will be put into the darkness of life." Nitāi: Prabhupāda: Purport. *Nitāi: "This verse is very important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature. How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature. One has to rise, therefore, above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unless one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer from one body to another because he has material desires since time immemorial. But he has to change that conception. That change can be effected only by hearing from authoritative sources. The best example is here: Arjuna is hearing the science of God from Kṛṣṇa. The living entity, if he submits to this hearing process, will lose his long*-cherished desire to dominate the material nature, and gradually and proportionately, as he reduces his long desire to dominate, he comes to enjoy spiritual happiness." Nitāi: No. Prabhupāda: Purport. *Prabhupāda: So everything is explained. If anyone wants to take advantage of it, he can take. We have got fifty books like this. Those who are interested in the science and philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they can read all these books. Otherwise, one can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, That will also help. The human civilization means everyone shall try to become first*-class man. This is human civilization, not to remain like animals. That attempt is lacking now. Here the civilization is that the dog is jumping or running, and human being is running in a motor car, and he is thinking he is more civilized than the dog. But the business is running. That's all. The dog is having sex on the street, and the human being is having sex in a very nice decorated apartment and therefore he is civilized. But the business is the same. The dog is eating on the floor and the human being is eating in a very nice table, nice dish, and therefore he is civilized. But the business is eating. The dog is trying to defend itself by barking or by teeth and jaws, and the human being is trying to defend the society by atom bomb, but the business is defense. Therefore śāstra says, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca samanyam etat paśubhir narāṇām: "This business of eating, sleeping, mating, and defending is common to the animal and to the man." The man, if he does not understand what he is, why he is suffering this material tribulations, then he remains cats and dogs. The cats and dogs, they cannot question, but human being can question. And he should take the answer from these books of knowledge. That is human life. Otherwise, so far eating, sleeping, sex and defense, that is common for the dogs and man. There is no difference. He is doing in his own way, we are doing in our own way, but the business is the same. So human being must go above these four businesses, the fifth business. The fifth business is how to understand God. Otherwise, the bodily four businesses, that is common. Even an ant, it is also eating. It is going from this place to that place: "Where is a grain of sugar?" And we are also running in car this way and that way: "Where is eating?" The hog is also running: "Where is stool? Where is stool?" So... [break] (child makes sounds) Is he chanting mantra? That small... Jayatīrtha: Yes, he's chanting nicely. *Prabhupāda: Thank you, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just see. He is being trained up. Just see how he is taking lesson. So it is possible. So from childhood, if he is trained up, then in future he will become first*-class man. Jayatīrtha: Sometimes people complain that we don't give our children any right of free choice, that we train them in our own way. Prabhupāda: This is nonsense, to give free choice to the child. This is nonsense. Child should be protected. That is intelligence. That is the wrong type of consciousness. According to Vedic civilization, a child, a woman, a brāhmaṇa, a cow, and an old man they should be given protection, not freedom, but protection. Jayatīrtha: At the same time in that Time article it discussed that about fifty percent of the crime was done by children under eighteen and people are afraid even to go to the schools. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not educated properly. Not only that they have given photograph: the children take small..., yes, weapon, knife. And examination is held under police vigilance. This is the education. Mrs. Wax: Some of us are parents of devotees and when you came to America nine years ago, eight years ago... Prabhupāda: Yes. Mrs. Wax: ...some young people were attracted to the message and responded and joined Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Is there a special reason? What explanation do you have why some...? Prabhupāda: Yes. The special reason was... That was published in one paper, Voice East. What is that? Devotees: Village Voice. Prabhupāda: Yes. They wrote a very big article that "We thought God is dead but Swamiji has brought God in his kīrtana." They wrote this article. They found God's presence in Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This Brahmānanda, he was attracted first. Mrs. Wax: The first one? Brahmānanda: One of the first ones. Mrs. Wax: Really? *Prabhupāda: His photo was published in New York Times, dancing. He and another boy... (laughter) Yes. He and another boy, Acyutānanda*-he is now in India; *he is also sannyāsī*-these two boys were dancing hand to hand, and this was published in New York Times. Mrs. Wax: What I'm asking is why could he understand? Prabhupāda: Then you ask him how, he'll reply. (laughter) Mrs. Wax: Why did you? Prabhupāda: Why he became attracted and began to dance. He is present here. I did not ask him to come and dance. Brahmānanda: Well, I was just... I cannot say exactly why. I was searching, however. I was looking for something better than what I was doing. Prabhupāda: His father predicted that "This boy will become a pious man. He is not going to take up my business." (laughter) His father is a very big, rich man running on factories. But he was disappointed that "This, my child, will not be a factory worker." Is it not? You tell. Brahmānanda: Yes. Actually we also say that it is Prabhupāda's grace that he came here and he actually delivered a process which is nothing of his own manufacture. This chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is a bona fide transcendental process. And Prabhupāda has delivered it purely. So therefore it has great effect. Although it seems that there are only a few of us who are actually taking to this movement, we consider that we are representative of the whole world. Actually this movement has now spread all over the world. I myself have been in Africa, and the movement is even taking effect there. So we see that our movement is very important, and we have members from practically every country, every religion, every kind of social group in the world. Therefore we see a great scope for this movement. And at the present moment we are not getting so much help from governments, authorities, so many groups that could offer especially financial help. We're having to do everything by ourselves. So therefore our facilities are limited. If we had more facility, certainly this movement would grow far more than it is now. Prabhupāda: Upendra. You can take it. So try to understand this movement and write more and more articles and educate your countrymen. That will be very nice. Mrs. Wax: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Mrs. Wax: My son is educating me. That's what you said. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Mrs. Wax: You said that's the proper... Prabhupāda: Yes, son should be so nicely educated that he can teach his mother also. That is nice. Some of the parents of my disciples, they come to congratulate, give me thanks. And some of them to curse me (laughter), that "You have spoiled our children." (laughing) Brahmānanda's mother is very angry. (laughter) Mrs. Wax: She's very angry. Brahmānanda: She has given myself and also my brother. Mrs. Wax: Oh, your brother too. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: When she came to see me I asked, "Mrs. Bruce, you have got money. Give me some money." So she became angry: "I have given my two sons." (laughter) Mrs. Wax: Your brother joined after you. Brahmānanda: Just a month after. Mrs. Wax: Are there any more Brahmānanda: One sister. She's never... Mrs. Wax: Never walked out. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: The parents of one devotee came to the temple in Los Angeles and were picketing with signs in front of the building. Mrs. Wax: Oh, really. Jayatīrtha: They were accusing us of kidnapping their daughter. When I spoke with them I said, "Before your daughter came to our movement she was taking drugs and having sex life even though she was at the early age and so many nonsense things. But now she's not doing those things." They said, "I'd rather she be doing those things than joining your movement." So some people they can't appreciate. *Mrs. Wax: I understand Mr. Patrick kidnapped Lakṣmī*-nārāyaṇa. Is he all right? *Jayatīrtha: Lakṣmī*-nārāyaṇa, yes he escaped. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: There's this one fellow, Mr. Ted Patrick. He goes and he kidnaps the devotees. The parents pay him $1,000 up to $25,000... Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Jayatīrtha: ...depending on how wealthy they are. He kidnaps them and tries to brainwash them that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not good. Devotee: He calls it deprogramming. He says... He tries to deprogram the devotees that we have simply been hypnotized by chanting. So he has to snap us out of it by deprogramming. And he uses very severe techniques, very harsh. Prabhupāda: And the parents are inducing him. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just see. Brahmānanda: All over America. Jayatīrtha: They tear off the neckbeads and tear up your pictures in front of the devotees, try to force them to eat meat, so many things. Devotee: Blasphemy. Jayatīrtha: Recently we got a conviction against him. He got six months in prison. In Los Angeles we got to convict him for this kind of activity. So he is being stopped. Guest (Indian man): Also he can't come to Canada any more, can't cross the border. Jayatīrtha: Oh, he's been barred. Guest: He is barred from coming to Canada. Brahmānanda: He was put into the Denver county jail also when we were in Denver. He's out on bail now. Mrs. Wax: Not only kidnapping devotees, Kṛṣṇa devotees, but all religious movements. He can't stand them. Prabhupāda: And the parents are taking help from him. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is the difficulty. Mrs. Wax: I've noticed that there are different dates given to when the *Vedas* began, the beginnings of the *Vedas*. Some historians and authorities say one thing and I've seen many different figures. What is the accurate time they were spoken. Prabhupāda: If you can find out what is the accurate time of this cosmic creation, then you will find the date of *Vedas*. Can you find out when it was created? Have you got any statistics? Mrs. Wax: No, none. I was hoping you did. (laughs) Mr. Wax: How old is the Hare Kṛṣṇa chant. Prabhupāda: As old as this creation. Mr. Wax: (indistinct) ...if you get any statistics, let me know. Brahmānanda: It shows the limitation of our scientific knowledge that we don't even know the accurate date of the cosmic manifestation. *Prabhupāda: So far Kṛṣṇa consciousness is concerned, you can take it: since five thousand years, when Kṛṣṇa was present, He gave this instruction. But it existed before Kṛṣṇa's instruction. About forty millions of years ago He gave this instruction to the sun*-god. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā: Jayatīrtha: Like the frog in the well. *Prabhupāda: Yes. A frog in the well is thinking, "This is the limit of water." (laughter) And if you say there is Atlantic Ocean, he cannot understand it. He will think, "What is that?" "Oh, it is very big." "How much? Is it three feet? It is four feet?" "No, no, very big." "Five feet?" "No, no, still..." "Six feet?" So he is calculating in that way, "Four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten," but Atlantic ocean is beyond his conception. So these are all Dr. Frog's philosophy. Yes. And the so*-called philosophers, they are Dr. Frog. (laughter) We consider them as Dr. Frog. Some of my students who are doctors, they are now trying to give up their job because they are understanding this is all false knowledge. Yes. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, because you are presenting this knowledge so purely, then it's possible for the common man to understand this knowledge without chanting and following the four regulative principles. *Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is not possible. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. You have to cleanse the mirror of your consciousness, then the reflection will be properly viewed. If you keep it dirty, then it is not possible. Therefore we require first-class men to understand this philosophy, not the fourth-class man. If you keep him fourth-class man, it is not possible. Devotee (2): We are giving these books to so many common men. Then the books will attract them to perhaps chanting and following the regulative principles. *Prabhupāda: Yes, if they read. Even if they touch. That is the difference between this book and ordinary book. Even they touch and they read one line and says, "Oh, it is very nice," he makes a step forward. If he simply says this word, "Oh, it is very nice," that is sufficient to bring him. Therefore I am trying to push. He has paid some money. He will then say, "What these nonsense have written. Let me see." (laughter) And if he sees and says, "Oh, it is very nice," then the beginning is immediately. Therefore we are trying to push. At least let him say, "It is very nice." The Kartikeya's mother, the practical experience... The Kartikeya, when he used to go to see his mother, the mother was going to dance, ball dance, and she would not speak: "All right, sit down. I am coming." She used to go out. The same mother gradually, in the association of her son, became Kṛṣṇa conscious. So at the time of death she asked Kartikeya, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" and she died immediately. This is the effect. So anta*-kāle, she remembered Kṛṣṇa, so her life was successful. She inquired like this, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" And immediately died. So she got the benefit of her son's Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You can ask Kartikeya also. She said that. Jayatīrtha: Yes, he told me that story. Prabhupāda: Yes. So all the mothers of my disciples, they will get salvation because she has got nice son like... Jayatīrtha: All the mothers will get salvation. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Mrs. Wax: Oh, good. (laughter) Devotee (3): What about the fathers. Prabhupāda: Father also. Both the father and mother. Because they are father and mother of a Vaiṣṇava devotee, so they will be taken special care. You'll find from the Prahlāda Mahārāja's description. Even a father like Hiraṇyakaśipu, he got salvation because Prahlāda was son. *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it seems strange that so many parents who are engaged in meat*-eating and illicit sex and intoxication and gambling, could have a son who would become a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Therefore they will get the advantage of the son. Somehow or other, they have produced a son, Vaiṣṇava, so the son's activities will react upon the life of the parents. Because naturally the sons think of the father and mother, that is beneficial for them. However one may be renounced, he cannot get rid of family affection. That is natural. So the Vaiṣṇava son sometimes thinks of the father and mother. So they are getting the benefit. Devotee: So sometimes the attachment is beneficial, then? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? We are trying to be attached with Kṛṣṇa. This is our movement. Instead of having attachment with this whole material world, we are turning to transfer the attachment to Kṛṣṇa. Find out this verse, Nitāi: *Prabhupāda: "With mind attached to Me." This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to keep the mind attached to Kṛṣṇa. That is success. That yoga we are practicing, how to keep the mind attached to Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful. Our mind is attached to something. Without attachment, mind cannot be free even for a moment. So the bhakti*-yoga means how to transfer the attachment of mind to Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are working, you are rendering your service without any charges, without any profit-why? Because your mind has been attached to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise what business you have got to work for Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement without any remuneration? You are all American boys. You are qualified. You can earn thousands of dollars. But why you have given up? Because you are attached to Kṛṣṇa. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. You have found better attachment; therefore you given up. So that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are attached to so many nonsense things. When we wind up all these attachments and concentrate on Kṛṣṇa, then life is perfect. That is wanted. We are not going to sacrifice attachment. But we are trying to transfer the attachment from matter to Kṛṣṇa. Then our life is successful. But that attachment is very rare. Morning Walk -- July 6, 1975, Chicago Jagadīśa: (in car) ...discussed with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and... Prabhupāda: Why? Jagadīśa: Because it would greatly facilitate my preaching. Prabhupāda: You are already preaching. Jagadīśa: But many of the devotees are not so inclined to listen to a householder, as to a sannyāsī. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Neither to the sannyāsīs. [break] ...this building? Brahmānanda: It's the univers... It's a theo... [break] Prabhupāda: Not for the students? Jagadīśa: That's what they originally were for. Prabhupāda: Now? [break] Eucalyptus? No. Sudāmā: No, Prabhupāda. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...one for the bathroom. [break] Eh? Fifth class. [break] ...fourth*-class. [break] class. The same? Sudāmā: It's the same one. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, When you were... Many years ago you used to have me send you eucalyptus twigs from San Francisco. Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So now that you're in America we can easily arrange for that to be done. They can be sent. They take only one day by air. Prabhupāda: So wherefrom? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, San Francisco is the best area for eucalyptus. Prabhupāda: So arrange. Jagadīśa: We have them already, Mahārāja. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll arrange today. Prabhupāda: Arrange that three corner, four corner, square. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Square set, yes. Prabhupāda: Square side. That is good, square and green. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And green. And as thick as the finger? Prabhupāda: No, no, this much. Top of the little finger. [break] ...about forty miles off, there is a place known as Jneyo(?) Kali. There the Ganges is so vast. You have seen it? No. Eh? Viṣṇujana: Yeah, I think so. I saw it three miles wide. One place where I was sailing on the Ganges it was three miles wide by Mangir. Prabhupāda: Oh, Mungir. No, Mungir is far off. It is near Calcutta. [break] ...snowfall here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Snowfall? Prabhupāda: Heavy? Devotee (1): Oh, yes, it becomes very cold here. Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...all ice. In the winter time, this becomes ice. Prabhupāda: Become ice? Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh? [break] ...walk? Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: Yes, everyone likes to go out and walk around on it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ice skating. [break] Prabhupāda: ...was seeing in that paper, the meeting, a photograph of Jaya Prakash Narayana and Mrs. Gandhi. Both of the meetings were overcrowded. So who is right and who is wrong? People were hearings in throngs both of them. So? Who is wrong, who is right? [break] Brahmānanda: ...newspaper report here was that the crowds who came to cheer Indira Gandhi that they were paid, paid crowds. They would pay them one rupee each. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? (laughter) Yes. That is for car or...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Car, yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...any bird called thunderbird? Bahulāśva: Thunderbird? A big bird, big eagle, in the United States. Prabhupāda: No, big eagle, thunderbird. You have seen in this car? Brahmānanda: Automobile is called. Prabhupāda: But actually is there any bird called thunderbird? Jagadīśa: It's a legendary bird from Indian legend. American Indian. Prabhupāda: Indian legend? Brahmānanda: Of the American Indians, the red Indians. Sometimes their chiefs are called Chief Thunderbird. It's a popular name for their chiefs. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh. We have got an idea of thunderbird. The bird flies in the, near the cloud in expectation of water, and they are not afraid of thunder. That is called cataka. That example is given by Rūpa Gosvāmī. The cataka does not take water from ground. They will take water when it falls from the cloud. So in the beginning of every cloud there is thunder. So this bird, because they expecting water from the cloud, the cloud is giving him thunder, but still he does not, will not take water from ground. Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: In what connection do the Gosvāmīs use that example to illustrate? Prabhupāda: Example means a devotee will take mercy from Kṛṣṇa, not from the material world. Even there is thunder, Kṛṣṇa does not give mercy but puts him into difficulty, still, he will not take any mercy from the material world. This is the ex... [break] *Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: You are showing your mercy upon us. How do we prevent ourselves from becoming guru*-druha, or ungrateful for the benediction you are giving us? *Prabhupāda: So, you want to be guru*-druha? Eh? Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: That's nice. [break] ...come when there will be lightning, thunder but there will be no rain. (end) Morning Walk -- July 7, 1975, Chicago Prabhupāda: (in car:) ...Jewish temple? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Deity or not? Brahmānanda: Oh, no. Jayatīrtha: No. They worship their scripture, though the Toraḥ. They keep it on one altar and then they bring it out. Brahmānanda: Once a year. Jayatīrtha: And everyone pays respects. Prabhupāda: The scripture gives any description of God? [break] (out of car) ...religion, they have got at least. Devotee: Yes. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...talked to Gargamuni Mahārāja this morning. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I spoke with Gargamuni Mahārāja this morning. He collected $12,000 this month. Prabhupāda: Collected. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But I heard that he is collecting $6,000 daily. Brahmānanda: Six hundred. Prabhupāda: Six hundred, oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He collected twelve thousand, but his party is increasing in size. Prabhupāda: Yes, he can organize (laughs). Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...Philadelphia to see you at the Rathayātrā. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [Break] When important talks will be, I shall say. You can record. (end) Morning Walk -- July 8, 1975, Chicago *Prabhupāda: (in car:) ...but to engage them in Kṛṣṇa's service. Our knowledge in spiritual life and your help, material opulence, combined together, there will be great change in the whole world. Cooperate with us. There is no loss on your part, but there is great benefit to the whole world. Try to convince them. Although they are not very big authority, but still through them, you can approach bigger authorities. [break] ...big churches, no use, no utility. [break] ...speak, andha*-kañja-nyāya. Andha-kañja-nyāya, you know that, the lame man and the blind man? Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes. *Prabhupāda: So America is blind, and we are lame. So let us get on the shoulder of the American blind and give him direction, and both will be benefited. The whole world will be benefited. The America, blind, he cannot see where he is going. (chuckles) And for want of money we cannot make progress. So let the Americans take on the shoulder this lame man, and I will give direction, "Go this way. Go this way." Everything will be all right. Andha*-kañja-nyāya. [break] ...nice building, churches, there is no use. Take our direction. Everything will be all right. [break] ...take our direction, what is the loss on their part? Hmm? What is the possible loss? Why they will deny to take our direction? [break] (out of car:) Tell them about this andha-kañja-nyāya. Jayatīrtha: Prabhupāda was talking about the fact that the western world is blind and India is lame for lack of money. But by a combination there is very good effect. So if the western world takes us on its shoulders... Prabhupāda: Especially America. Jayatīrtha: Especially America. On its shoulders then we can give, Prabhupāda can give direction, and they can provide the resources. America will provide the resources, and we will provide the direction. [break] Prabhupāda: ...mayor and the police officers, through them, try to approach higher authorities. And what is that? We met yesterday? Harikesa: The public relations? *Prabhupāda: Ah, public relation. So convince them to..., the Americans should take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the shoulder, and because the Americans are blind, we shall give them direction on the shoulder, "Go this way. Go this way." So blind and the lame man combined together will perform a great task. [break] ...blindly, simply accumulating money, but they do not know how to utilize the money. They should take direction, authorized direction from us, and then it will be very nice. [break] ...not these concocted "isms." This "ism," that "ism," that "ism." Because it is, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. These all rascals are blind. They do not know how to direct. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā [SB 7.5.31]. They are trying to adjust the world affairs blindly. They do not know. So let us combine. Let them come forward, take direction from us. After all, your money, my money, your intelligence, my intelligence-everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence. We must agree to take His good advice. Early morning till night, we are always thinking, "How people will be happy by Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" And they are coming here for rowing boat. You see? How blind they are! The human life, so intelligent life, and they are utilizing for rowing boat. How blind they are! Not a single moment to be wasted and they are simply finding out, "How to waste time?" [break] ...is "Crime, what to do?" "Hippies, what to do?" "Problems, what to do?" Why "What to do?" Here is a direction. Do like this." "No, sir, that I will not do." [break] ...to take photo. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Viśakha, take photo. [break] Prabhupāda: And the steps... Harikeśa: The steps also. Prabhupāda: Just try to understand. Our lake in Māyāpur we shall make like this, all sides clear and four sides, the steps, ghāṭa, and garden. Viśakha: Four sides, the steps? Prabhupāda: These steps, you see? Here, there... There is no... Just opposite. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Four corners. Prabhupāda: Four... Not four corners. Four sides. Viśakha: And also with that in the center? Island? Prabhupāda: No, island is not required. Make a program like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Take photos. *Prabhupāda: And if possible, send them ideas and direction. Bhavānanda has gone. [break] ...convince them that they are doing very nice, to their best capacity, but they are doing it blindly. You are very good driver, but if you are a blind man, then how you will drive? You will create disaster. So we can open their eyes so that their good driving capacity will be properly utilized. A good driver, blind, what he will do? Ajñāna*-timirāndhasya. Darkness, it will not help. The western method of seeing things-blind eyes. Actually, they are blind. They are trying to see things with microscope. First of all you are blind. What you will see? Microscope, this machine or that machine, but you are blind. That they do not know. [break] Devotee: What should I do if I'd like to preach more and become free from my family entanglements? Prabhupāda: Just teach him what to do. Tell him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was his ques... What should you do...? Devotee: I want to preach more and become free from my family entanglement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Jagadīśa is having some preaching programs. So your family is no hindrance. Preaching is not hindered by family, one way or the other. *Prabhupāda: Ahaituky apratihatā. Why don't you understand? Preaching cannot be checked by anything*-if you want to preach. In any circumstances you can preach. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. Preaching can be executed by four things: by your life, by your money, by your intelligence, and by your words. You have got so many assets. So you can utilize it for preaching. Dedicate your life. If you think that you are family man, you cannot dedicate twenty-four hours, then earn money and give it to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement as other family men, they are earning money. Eh? Is it not? You can earn. In America there is good facility for earning money. They want that you work and take money. So earn money as gṛhastha and give it to Kṛṣṇa. Prāṇair arthair. If you cannot earn money, then use your intelligence. There are so many intellectual work: publication, going to this officer, that officer. You, intellectually you try. And vācā, by words. If you cannot do anything, go anyone, anywhere and say that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, just offer your obeisances." Finished. So where is the scarcity? You can serve Kṛṣṇa in any capacity-provided you want to serve. And if you want to engage Kṛṣṇa for your service, that is blunder. Then it is blunder. You cannot engage Kṛṣṇa to your service. The everyone is trying to engage Kṛṣṇa for his service. They are going to the church, "O Kṛṣṇa, give us our daily bread," that "You serve me. You give us our daily bread and serve me." And our proposition is, Yaśodāmayī, "Kṛṣṇa, You are playing all day. Come on! Take food first of all." This is service. They are going to Kṛṣṇa for asking daily bread. And here Yaśodāmayī is commanding, "Come here! If You don't eat, You will get lean and thin. Come on." This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Devotee: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...is concerned, "How Kṛṣṇa will keep good health?" And we are concerned, "Kṛṣṇa will go to hell. Please supply me food so that I might keep my health good." That is the difference between materialistic and spiritualist. The foolish man does not understand that Kṛṣṇa is supplying food to the elephant, to the ant, and why I shall go to the church for asking my food? It is already there. And our policy is, "Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." Hare Kṛṣṇa means, "O Kṛṣṇa, O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." We create problem. Otherwise, no problem. Kṛṣṇa has arranged everything. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Just see so many fruits for the birds. They are so sumptuously supplied, they are thrown. Pūrṇam idam [Īśo Invocation]. Everything is sufficient. But these rascal blind, they do not know. They are trying to adjust. What adjustment? It is already sufficient. You are misusing that. Sufficient land, sufficient intelligence. Everything is sufficient. They are misusing. In Africa, in Australia, sufficient land, and they are raising cattle to kill them. This is their intelligence. And growing coffee and tea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And tobacco. Devotee: For money, for profit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And tobacco. Prabhupāda: Tobacco, by which... They know tobacco is bad, and they are utilizing time for growing tobacco and smoking tobacco. This is their intelligence. So blind men... Give them intelligence, these rascals. We call therefore only rascals. People are dying for want of food grains, and they are growing tobacco, which smoking, they will go to hell. This is their intelligence. Huh? What do you think? Satsvarūpa: I agree. Prabhupāda: This is the idea. Sudāmā: And they even indicate, Prabhupāda, on the advertisements that smoking is hazardous for the health. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...for money, the money which will push them to hell. This is their intelligence. We have to give them intelligence, open their eyes. [break] ...angry first of all because mūrkhāyo 'padeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye: "If you give good intelligence to the fools and rascals, they will be angry." But still, you have to do it. Just like when Nityānanda Prabhu went to Jagāi*-Mādhāi to deliver them, they became angry and injured. So that is preacher. These rascals will be angry, will sometimes do harm to you, and still, you have to do it. That is preaching. Are you understanding what is preaching? Yes. You have to prepare like that. At all risk you have to preach. [break] ...world is full of rascals, and you have to educate them. So according to one's capacity let them preach, prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. But everyone can preach to some extent. There is no hindrance. *Jaga*-jīvana: Is everything done in our movement for preaching? Everything that is done in our movement is done for preaching? Prabhupāda: Yes. To awaken their Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are in dog consciousness; we have to raise them to God consciousness. Don't you see how much they are taking care of the dog? Because they do not know, blind, whether they will be God conscious or dog conscious. So the dog conscious people should be raised to the platform of God conscious. That is preaching. Mūḍha nābhijānāti. These rascals, they do not know the life is meant for understanding God. That they... Ask anyone. Nobody knows. They are so fool. They want to remain dog. The dog is also running; they are also running. And because they can run on by car, they are thinking they are civilized. But the business is running, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the purpose for the running is the same. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Prabhupāda: That's all. [break] ...condemn running by car, but utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. That we want. If the purpose is same, like dog, then what is the use of running by car? [break] ...by car to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] ...not after that philosophy, that jagan mithyā brahma satya, no. We say jagat is also satya because brahma satya, the jagat is also satya. It is mithyā because it is improperly utilized. Let it be utilized properly, it is also truth. It is truth actually. You cannot say, "This is a false tree." This is the ignorance. How it is false? But it is being misused. That is false. You cannot misuse anything which is given by God. You should properly utilize it. Then it is truth. And as soon as you misuse it, it is untruth. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So material consciousness is false. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything can be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. That is our preaching. That is truth. There is a nice car. Why shall I condemn it? Utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. Then it is truth. And the Māyāvādī philosophers, they will say, "It is untruth. Give it up." No. When you have produced something by your good intelligence, it is truth, but when you use it for other purpose than Kṛṣṇa, then it is false. [break] ...Deity nicely decorated, if I say, "It is all false," is that very good sense? They have created such a nice thing. No, the purpose for which you have created or utilized, that is false. So we want to change the consciousness. We don't condemn the thing. [break] ...with a knife you are cutting vegetables and utilizing, but if you use it for cutting your throat, that is bad. That is bad. So they are using the knife for cutting their own throat. This is bad. [break] The śāstra says, nidrāham ādyaṁ plavaṁ sukalpam. This body... We are just crossing the ocean of nescience. So this body is a good boat. māyā ete 'rtaṁ guruḥ karṇa*-dharam. And the wind is favorable, Kṛṣṇa's instruction. And the captain is guru. He is guiding you. With all these facilities, if you cannot cross the nescience, then you are cutting your throat. [break] ...boat is there, the captain is there, the favorable wind is there. But we are not utilizing it. That means I am killing myself. [break] ...nity. is there. [break] ...policy. The policy is suicidal. That is the defect. So preaching means to remove this defect and utilize the policy for going ahead. [break] Devotee: Is it because of our impurity that we can't convince them to stop cutting their throat? Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His question is whether is it due to our impurity that we cannot convince people to stop cutting their throats. *Prabhupāda: No, it is due to their impurity, they do not take. What you are saying, that is pure. But the difficulty is if you instruct a rascal, he becomes angry. The example is given that if you give milk and banana to the serpent, he increases his poison. Payaḥ*-panaṁ bhujaṅganaṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam. Therefore we have to select sometimes that our preaching is in the proper place. Because a snake-like person, they will not hear. But if you are a good charmer, you can charm the snake also. (laughter) That depends on your quality. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu did. He made these snakes, the tigers, the elephants, all dancing Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is possible by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Tripurāri: Just like you have charmed all of us, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Well, I am not going to imitate Caitanya Mahāprabhu. (laughs) I have come to New York, not to the jungle. (laughter) Sudāmā: New York is worse than jungle. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is called an asphalt jungle. *Prabhupāda: After all, they are human being. Therefore we have collected some nice souls. [break] If you can go to the jungle, that is no hindrance, but let us take the opportunity of the civilized nations, preach them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. They are leading the whole civilization. If they are convinced, it will be great benefit to the human race. [break] Also my Guru Mahārāja said that "You go to the western country." If he had said that "You go to the jungle," I would have gone. [break] ...preacher, either the jungle or the city is the same. Nārāyaṇa*-paraḥ na kutaścana bibhayati. One who is devotee of the Lord, he does not make any discrimination that "This is jungle and this is city." Svargāpavarga-narakeṣv api tulyārtha-darśinaḥ [SB 6.17.28]. For them, everywhere, Kṛṣṇa's property. So where Kṛṣṇa asks him to go and serve, he will go. That's all. [break] *Jaga*-jīvana: All classes of men should preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all he must know what to preach. If he does not know what to preach, what he will preach? You have got a preaching capacity, provided you learn the art of preaching. But everyone can preach. That's a fact. Devotee: What is to become of those devotees that leave ISKCON and take to breaking the regulative principles, and stop chanting sixteen rounds? Prabhupāda: Explain. Devotee: There are even brāhmaṇas in our temple who have left the temple and they are acting just like karmīs. Prabhupāda: So they were wrongly initiated. We want recommendation from the authority, whether one should be initiated, but they gave wrong information. That is the defect of the informer. [break] *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...Hari*-nāma initiation can be a little more liberal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But brāhmaṇa initiation should be strict. Prabhupāda: Very strict. Very strict means he must be observed that he is actually chanting sixteen rounds, following the regulative principles. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those are the important...? Prabhupāda: These are the criterions, that he is actually, seriously doing this. Then he can be initiated. Otherwise useless. He will fall down. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...stated that one who does not, an unsuccessful person in yoga practice takes his next birth, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41]. Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but you are fallen. Who take birth in high family or in opulent, that is the fallen condition. That is not successful con... But they are taking, "This is success. I have got so much money. I have got so much prestige. This is success." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fallen condition. Prabhupāda: That is fallen condition. Devotee: They think that is the success of life. Prabhupāda: They think. They are foolish. They can think like that. Generally, that is... Not that devotees are not opulent. No, that is not. But this materialistic opulence means fallen condition. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The demigods are in a very opulent position also. Prabhupāda: Yes. But they are devotees. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they are devotees, not fallen. Prabhupāda: They can fall. Everyone can fall. [break] Tripurāri: ...says that a sannyāsī should not take, be anxious for disciples but should only take those who are qualified. But sometimes, when there's no one qualified, he takes a risk. Prabhupāda: Yes. One who does not like to take the risk, they do not take the risk of preaching. But one who takes the risk, he is recognized by Kṛṣṇa immediately, "Oh, he is taking risk." But he must know where to take risk and where to act foolishly. Just like Nityānanda Prabhu took the risk of being injured. But He was certain that "I can deliver him." That is... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You took a great risk also, Prabhupāda, by coming to us. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. I have already written that. I was thinking that "What shall I do here? I have come here. As soon as I shall impose these four principles they will say, 'Go home.' " But I took that risk. I never said anything palatable. Against their activities, "You don't do this, don't do this." [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...compromised at all, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, what is the use of compromise if there is no good result? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Someone who compromises, he actually wants followers. Prabhupāda: That is not good. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu decried, na dhanaṁ na janam, "I don't want these followers." What is the use of follower if he does not follow? [break] ...idam. Everything is sufficient, complete. Why they are embarrassed with incompleteness? Everyone is trying to adjust incompleteness, but the Vedic information, "Everything is complete." That means lacking knowledge. The car is complete. One who does not know to drive, he will find it incomplete, "Where to push on, this way, that way." He does not know how to drive the car. (end) Television Interview -- July 9, 1975, Chicago Woman reporter: When you came to Chicago last week you said you were going to tell us some of the solutions to our problems in this country. Can you tell me what some of those solutions are? *Prabhupāda: Solution not only of your country or our country, it is the solution for the whole human society. I told that as there are different divisions in the same body, the head, the arms, the belly, and the leg... Although the body is one, but there are different parts for different function. Then the body is going nicely. The head is the most important part of the body. So if the head is not in order, then, in spite of presentation of other parts of the body, hands, leg, the body is useless. Just like a madman. Madman, this brain is not in order. Therefore despite the presentation of the hands, legs, and other things, it is useless. Similarly, the human society should be divided into four classes according to quality. Not everyone is on the same level. So for, even for material purposes there must be four divisions: first*-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class, means... The definition of the first-class, find out. This is the definition of the first-class man. Nitāi: *Prabhupāda: This is first*-class man. Then second-class man? Nitāi: *Prabhupāda: This is second*-class. And then third-class? Nitāi: *Prabhupāda: That is fourth*-class. First of all, third-class. *Nitāi: Third*-class: "Farming, cow protection and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas,..." Prabhupāda: Not cow protection, cow protection. Nitāi: Cow protection. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Farming and cow protection and trade, this is meant for the third-class division. And worker, fourth-class. These divisions must be there. Then the society will go on very nicely. Exactly the same example, that if the different parts of the body-the brain, the arms, the belly and the legs*-all are in order, the bodily function will go on very nicely. This is natural. Woman reporter: Where do women fit into these four classes? *Prabhupāda: That I already explained. Women's position is subordinate to man. So if the man is first*-class, the woman is first-class. If the man is second-class, the woman is second-class. If the man is third-class, the woman is third-class. In this... Because woman is meant for assisting man, so the woman becomes suitable according to the man, her husband. Woman reporter: Would you say that women are inferior to men? Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman reporter: Why? Prabhupāda: By physiological condition. Just like you are. Your bodily features are different from the man's features. You cannot deny it. So according to the bodily features, the psychological condition and everything is there. How you can deny it? Woman reporter: Do you think that I am inferior to you? Prabhupāda: It is not the question of inferior or superior. Different. Now you take one inferior or superior. That is your calculation. But the bodily features are different. That is material. But spiritually, they are all one. Materially... Just like your bodily feature and a man's bodily feature is different. Now, so far question of inferior, superior, that is your calculation. But we say that by nature, a woman and man is different. Woman reporter: What does this mean as far as whether women can do the same things that men can do, or whether women can lead people? Prabhupāda: Well, women can bear children, but the man cannot. Is it possible to bear children? A man can become pregnant? Is it possible? Woman reporter: No. Prabhupāda: Physically... Therefore there are so many things which is possible in man and which is not possible in woman, by nature. How you can say that they are of the same nature? Woman reporter: I'm not saying they're the same. What can... Prabhupāda: Then if you not saying that, then they are different in their physiological condition. So now this physiological condition, you may calculate, "This is better, this is better." That is your calculation. Our calculation is the man and woman are different in their physiological condition. Woman reporter: But you say women are subordinate to men. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also natural. Because when the husband and wife are there or the father and daughter is there, so the daughter is subordinate to the father and the wife is subordinate to the husband. Woman reporter: What happens when women are not subordinate to men? Prabhupāda: Then there is disruption. There is disruption, social disruption. If the woman does not become subordinate to man, then there is social disruption. Therefore, in the western countries there are so many divorce cases because the woman does not agree to become subordinate to man. That is the cause. Woman reporter: What advice do you have to women who do not want to be subordinate to men? Prabhupāda: It is not my advice, but it is the advice of the Vedic knowledge that woman should be chaste and faithful to man. Woman reporter: What should we do in the United States? We're trying to make women equal with men. *Prabhupāda: I am not trying. You are already not equal with the man because in so many respects, your functions are different and man's functions are different. Why do you say artificially they are equal? As I told you that the husband and wife*-the wife has to become pregnant, not the husband. How you can change this, both the husband and wife will be pregnant? Is it possible? Is it possible? Woman reporter: No, it is not. Prabhupāda: Then by nature one has to function differently from the other. Woman reporter: But why does this mean...? Prabhupāda: So how you can change? Woman reporter: Why does this mean that women have to be subordinate? Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman reporter: Just because they bear children and men can't? Prabhupāda: Well, by nature... No, as soon as you get children, you require support from the husband. Otherwise you are in difficulty. Woman reporter: Many women have children and have no support from husbands. They have no husband. Prabhupāda: Then they have to take support from others. You cannot deny that. The government is giving you support. But the government is embarrassed. If the husband supports the wife and children, the government is relieved of so much welfare contribution. So that is a problem. Woman reporter: What happens when women support men? Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand that you depend. The... After man and woman unite, there is children, and the man goes away, and you are embarrassed. The woman is embarrassed. Why? Why this is, is made possible? A man and woman unites, and the woman becomes pregnant, and the husband goes away. Then the poor woman is embarrassed with the child. She has to beg from the government. So do you think it is very nice thing? The Vedic idea is that woman should be married to a man and the man should take charge of the woman and the children independently so that they do not become a burden to the government or to the public. Woman reporter: Do you think the social unrest... Prabhupāda: I am thinking like this. You give me the answer. Simply you go on questioning. I question you, do you think this burden to the government or the public is good? Woman reporter: I don't understand what you're saying. Nitāi: Do you think that the burden caused when the husband goes away from the wife, that burden to the government is good? Woman reporter: No. *Prabhupāda: So that has happened. Because the woman does not agree to be subordinate*-she wants equal freedom-so the husband goes away and the woman is embarrassed with the children. And it becomes a burden to the government. Woman reporter: Is there anything wrong when the woman works? Prabhupāda: There are so many things wrong. But first thing is the wife, the woman, the wife of somebody, and the child born by somebody, they should become burden to the government or to the public. First of all answer this thing. Why she should become burden to the government? What is your answer? Do you think, from social point of view, this position of woman and the fatherless children are very nice thing? No. Woman reporter: What I'm trying to say is that... This may happen to some women. I'm talking about women who are not... Prabhupāda: Not... These are the general cases. You cannot say, "some." I see in America mostly the woman... Woman reporter: Oh, then what you're saying is not all women should be subordinate to all men. Prabhupāda: No, woman should be subordinate to the man, so that the man can take charge of the woman. Then that woman is not a problem to the public. Woman reporter: Is it true for all woman and all men? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the nature. You take even in the dogs. The dogs they also take care of their children. The tigers, they take care of the children. So in the human society, if the woman is made pregnant and the man goes away and she is embarrassed, she has to beg from the government, that is not a very good situation. Woman reporter: What about women who do not have children? Prabhupāda: Well, that is also another unnatural thing. Sometimes they use contraceptives. They kill children, abortion. That is also not very good. These are all sinful activities. These are sinful activities, to kill child in the womb. And take shelter of abortion. These are all sinful activities. One has to suffer for that. Woman reporter: Is the social unrest in this country caused because... Prabhupāda: Because of these things. They do not know that. Woman reporter: And if women were subordinate to men, it would solve all of our problems? Prabhupāda: Yes. Man wants that woman should be subordinate, faithful to him. Then he is ready to take charge. The man's mentality, woman's mentality different. So if the woman agrees to remain faithful and subordinate to man, then the family life will be peaceful. Woman reporter: Thank you. It's late. TV Cameraman: Any more questions? Woman reporter: Yes. I'll ask the same questions again, do not answer. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Nitāi: She's going to ask the same questions, but no need to answer. They're just going to photograph her. This is for on TV they will show her asking the questions. [break] Woman reporter: What will you do in Philadelphia? Prabhupāda: The same thing. I have got my temple there. I stay there, and I teach people according to my philosophy. Woman reporter: Is Philadelphia your last stop in... Prabhupāda: No, no, I travel all over United States. Then I will go to Europe. Then I will go to Africa. I have got my touring program for 4 months. [break] Woman reporter: There's one more question I'm going to ask. Is that tea? Is that tea that you're drinking? Prabhupāda: No, we don't drink tea. We don't drink tea, don't drink liquor. We don't smoke. This is our process, no illicit sex, no meat eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Unless one is married, there is no sex. And unless one is going to beget child, there is no sex. Not for pleasure. This is our regulative principle. Woman reporter: You have different schools for men and women, is that correct? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Man is regulated to become a first*-class man, and woman is regulated to become very chaste and faithful wife. Woman reporter: There is one more question. Prabhupāda: Then the life will be very successful. And marriage, compulsory. Marriage, compulsory. Woman reporter: Everyone should marry? Prabhupāda: Yes. Every woman, at least, should be married. Therefore, according to Vedic conception, polygamy is allowed. Woman reporter: Is allowed? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because every woman must be married. But every man may not be married. Therefore man has to accept more than one wife. Woman reporter: There is one question I have for you. You say that a woman's brain is smaller than a man's. Prabhupāda: Woman? Nitāi: Woman's brain is smaller than a man's brain. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. In the history there is no woman who is a big philosopher, a big mathematician, big scientist, big educationist. We don't find. They were all men. Woman reporter: What about women who are leaders of countries such as your own country? Prabhupāda: Well, according to Vedic conception woman is never offered leadership. But experience has shown that woman's leadership has not been successful. Woman reporter: Do you think Mrs. Gandhi's leadership has not been successful? Prabhupāda: Well, there is already trouble. There are many big, big men, they do not agree with her and she has taken emergency steps. So on the whole, the country is in trouble. Woman reporter: What about Mrs. Meir, president of Israel? Prabhupāda: I do not say of any particular woman, but according to Vedic civilization, we have never seen in the history that woman has become a leader. Woman reporter: Women have been leaders. *Prabhupāda: They were not selected. The leader-formerly it was monarchy*-the monarchs were selected by the advisory board of the first-class men. So they never selected any woman to become the leader of the society. Woman reporter: What about women who are elected by the people? Prabhupāda: Well, people election... Just like you elected Nixon and then you wanted him to come down. So this kind of election has no value. Sometimes you elect and sometimes you pull down. So what is the value of this election? Woman reporter: So a leader should not be elected. Prabhupāda: Elected, but not by this general public. They have no intelligence. They sometimes elect a wrong man, and again they try to drag him down. So what is the use of such election? Because that election is not sober, not mature. If the election was mature and sober, then there was no need of dragging him down again. Woman reporter: We have talked to scientists who say that the size of the brain has nothing to do with intelligence. Do you believe that? Prabhupāda: I think that the scientists do not think like that. They keep the brain of a particular scientist to study. They keep the heart of a particular noble man. Why they try to study the heart and the brain if there is no difference? Nitāi: Sometimes they keep the brain of a great scientist to study because they think that he is so intelligent, there must be something we can learn from studying the brain. So if they are thinking like that, then there also must be a difference between a woman's brain and a man's brain. Woman reporter: What they say is that there is difference, but it has nothing to do with the size. Nitāi: Then why do they keep great scientists' brain to study? Woman reporter: They keep many people's brains to study. Nitāi: Especially great scientists, that they want to see what has made this man so intelligent. Woman reporter: That's not necessarily true. Prabhupāda: Then why they study the brain? What is the purpose of studying brain unless there is difference? You study different brains. Unless you feel that there is difference between this brain and that brain, why do you study. What is the meaning of study? Woman reporter: To find differences among men. It's not necessarily differences between men and woman. *Prabhupāda: I don't say man or woman. But I say you study different brains*-why? Unless you think there is some difference? Woman reporter: There is difference. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if there is difference, then what is the harm if there is difference between man and woman's brain? Woman reporter: They say there isn't. Prabhupāda: They say, but the fact we have to study. As soon as you study the construction of different brain, then you must know that there is difference, different activities. Woman reporter: In other words, you do not believe this, what they say. Prabhupāda: Then why do you study different brain? Woman reporter: I don't study them. I'm just telling you what the scientists say. *Prabhupāda: So scientists, the psychologist... As I was a student of psychology and our professor, a big man, Dr. W. S. Urquhart, he said that "By studying the brains of man and woman, we have found the highest brain substance found in man, sixty*-four ounce by weight." You may deny. This is the statement of a big psychologist. You can shake your head, but this is the scientific words by big psychologist. You can note down his name, Dr. W.S. Urquhart, professor of psychology in the Scottish Churches College in 1918-20. Woman reporter: Oh, dear, no wonder. 1918-1920, that means... O.K. I see now what you're thinking about. That was many, many years ago. Prabhupāda: So can you give any proof since then that the woman's... In 1920... She does not take it? Nitāi: She does not take it. Somehow they think that the brain is no longer small. If it was small, then, it is not small today. Prabhupāda: But where is the proof... Woman reporter: You do not believe that there has been advancement of science since 1920? Nitāi: Well, if the brain has been ascertained as being half the size then why should it change by now? Should it change? Woman reporter: Well, do you think that the Romans weren't as tall as men are today? Nitāi: No, but the... But then, within fifty years there is not going to be any change in the brain. Woman reporter: Not in the 1900's. Why do you use the technology that you use? You didn't have cars in those days, this television. Things have changed since 1920. Prabhupāda: So what change has become? Can you give any evidence that woman is more powerful in brain than the man during these years? Can you give any evidence? Woman reporter: No, what I'm saying is that... Prabhupāda: Now, can you give any evidence that woman has become more powerful than the man during these fifty years? Woman reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is that? Give me some tacit example. Woman reporter: That she and I wouldn't be here if women weren't more powerful than they were fifty years ago. Harikeśa: Now they are talking louder. (laughter) Woman reporter: Than you. Thank you. (woman leaves) Harikeśa: The scientists have the theory that the brain, the intelligence is measured by creases in the brain, creases, not by size. Prabhupāda: Not size, but what is the proof that the brain of woman has increased? Where is the proof? Harikeśa: They think because the ego has increased, the brain has also increased. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. (laughter) That's nice. (laughing) So to become angry means defeat. If two persons are in argument the man, the one party, he becomes angry, that means he is defeated. Why one should become angry? It is the argument, logic. They should continue. And to become angry and to go away, that means defeat. Harikeśa: They become upset because they cannot dominate you. Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question of domination; it is the question of logic. If you do not agree to logic, then no argument can make progress. *Uttamaśloka: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if one does not agree to logic, does that mean that they are under the influence of tamo*-guṇa? Prabhupāda: That means he is animal. Guest: Under the influence of who? *Uttamaśloka: Tamo*-guṇa. Harikeśa: It's the mode of ignorance. Guest: Who? Harikeśa: The mode of ignorance. Prabhupāda: Logic is meant for learned man, and uneducated man, they want to force, "Yes, you must do it." With point of revolver, "You must do it." And educated man, they argue on logic. That is the difference. [break] ...queens of Kṛṣṇa, they are giving statement as maidservant of Kṛṣṇa. You have read that portion? When there was talk between Kuntī and queens of Kṛṣṇa, the queens presented themself as maidservant of Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: The men have become the servants of the women. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: Women's liberation has become successful because man is now the servant of woman. Prabhupāda: It is not successful. That I was pointing out. It has caused the disaster because the whole women become dependent on the welfare gift of the government, and the government has to raise tax heavily for this purpose. The tax is given by the general public, but it is going for one individual person, and I have heard that government is embarrassed. They are now making enquiry about the welfare gifts. Nitāi: There's many scandals there. Prabhupāda: There are now so many scandals. So these are the problems. Why? The man leaves the woman uncared for. Brahmānanda: One statistic has come that there are more people in this country receiving welfare than there are those who are employed in jobs outside of government. That means the government is actually spending for more people than... [break] Prabhupāda: Is not that a problem to the government? Nitāi: A huge problem. Harikeśa: Taxes are very high. Everyone is complaining about taxes being too high. Prabhupāda: Problem is already there and if they think it is not problem, then what can be said? By nature's way, if the husband takes care of the wife and children, this problem is solved immediately. But the man takes advantage. He goes away after making the woman pregnant. And the woman is embarrassed and the government is embarrassed. Harikeśa: And the child grows up to be a criminal. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Hippies. That is another problem. So they are not far*-seeing. The immediate benefit they want. What will be the effect? That is animal civilization. Animal cannot see what will be the future. Therefore we have to take advice from Kṛṣṇa. One who knows past, present, and future. Everything is there. We are spreading this knowledge, that "Take your council from Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll be happy." That is our program. Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if we speak these things on television and the newspapers and people become angry, if all the people become angry like she does, is it still good propaganda for us? *Prabhupāda: No, then we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We don't make disturbance. But in the Bhagavad*-gītā everything is discussed, this varṇa-saṅkara and the first-class man, second-class man. If we have to push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, then we have to discuss. But if they do not like, better chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and don't discuss anything. But these things are discussed. If you are not agreeable to hear from Bhagavad-gītā, then let us chant together Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. But these things are discussed in the Bhagavad-gītā about varṇa-saṅkara. If the population, varṇa-saṅkara, is increased, then it becomes hell. So if you want to increase the hellish person, then don't discuss. But if you think it is a problem, then discuss. Satsvarūpa: As a brāhmaṇa, we have to be truthful. When in Hong Kong they asked you what you thought of Guru Maharaji, you said you could not help yourself. Prabhupāda: Yes. I said that he is a great cheat. What can I say? And it has been proved now. (laughter) I said in my book, Easy Journey to Other..., that this moon excursion is childish, and it has been proved now. Now they don't talk about the moon excursion because they are failure. So ten years ago or more than that, I said that it is only childish. (end) Morning Walk -- July 9, 1975, Chicago Prabhupāda: ...that requires complete overhauling. This religion, that religion will not help. They have no idea what is spiritual knowledge. Everyone is hovering on the mental plane. [break] ...the principle of Ba'hai religion? *Jayatīrtha: It was founded in Persia. It's a hodge*-podge principle. (Prabhupāda laughs) Jagadīśa: They think that everyone is evolving, that after taking this human life, you have to go to heaven. That's the next stage, even if you're the most sinful of all sinners. Prabhupāda: Oh. Even one is sinful, he will also go? *Jagadīśa: Yes. Because they say that God is all*-merciful, therefore... Prabhupāda: You can do whatever you like. *Brahmānanda: God becomes the order*-supplier. Jayatīrtha: They have a big temple. Prabhupāda: This is Ba'hai temple? Jagadīśa: No, no, it's back the other way. Jayatīrtha: It's much bigger than this building? Jagadīśa: Yes, it's quite a..., very nice. [break] (walking:) *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...buddhiḥ kuṇape tri*-dhātuke. So long one is in the bodily concept of life, he is animal. Will these people accept this? Hm? Jayatīrtha: They won't like to. Prabhupāda: Then? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By our preaching we have to make them accept it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually that's a fact. Sudāmā: We have to set an example for them to see. Prabhupāda: What is the example? Sudāmā: That this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, actually it does work, it does make us purified. Prabhupāda: "No. It works with you. It doesn't work with me," he will say. You have to prove that they are animals. How you will prove it? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By showing the activities of the animals and their activities to be the same. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They have to judge that "What is the difference between animal's activities and our so*-called civilized man's activities?" Sudāmā: When you compare them to the animals, then they become insulted. Prabhupāda: But he is animal. That is, if you call a thief a thief, he will feel insulted. But does it mean that I shall say that "You are very honest?" A thief shall be called thief. That is natural. If you call a Negro, "You black," he will be angry. But he is black. So... So that is another thing. When the activities are similar to the animal activities, then he is animal. Why a reasonable man will not accept that, hm? In that case also, he is animal. Because they say, "Man is rational animal." So if you are devoid of rationality then again you are animal. So how he will avoid, that he is not animal? Satsvarūpa: Many people today are willing to accept that. They say, "Yes, we're animals. We should enjoy our animal nature." Prabhupāda: Yes, so go on enjoying. Then don't talk of this "How, what to do, criminal?" Go on, animal. Then why you are anxious to avoid criminality? Hmm? The dogs, hogs, they are not anxious to avoid criminality. Why you are trying to avoid criminality? Remain animal. When the dog goes left to the right, it is not criminality, but why do you prosecute a man when he drives from the left to the right? You remain dog. "Why you charge me criminality? I am dog, sir." Tell him. (laughter) Go to the court and say, "I am dog, sir. Excuse me, I am dog." Why don't you say that? Do you say like that? When you are arrested and charged in the court, you can plead, "I am dog, sir. Excuse me." Why it is not excused? He is punished, why? Satsvarūpa: The human body means you have responsibility. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they say, "Whatever you do, it is all right." In the human body you cannot do like that. If in the ordinary court it is so strict, so what will be in the court of the God? Sudāmā: Just like they have laws, so similarly, Kṛṣṇa has. *Prabhupāda: Well, laws come... Wherefrom the laws come? It comes from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādyasya yataḥ. Everything, whatever you see, it has come from God. Otherwise where you get the idea? That is the definition in the Vedānta. Whatever you have experienced, that is coming from God, original idea from God. Janmādyasya yataḥ. In the Bhagavad*-gītā the same thing is said, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. Whatever you see, you perceive, you experience, the original is from Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So we shall go? [break] ...them directly that "You are animal." And let him go to the court and we shall prove that he is animal. [break] ...them he is in bodily concept of life, charge him that "You are animal. If you think it is defamation, let us go to the court." [break] ...these isms, nationalism, Communism, socialism, this ism, these are all animalism, nothing but animalism. [break] ...big fish within the water, they are also eating the small fish, and these persons are engaged, the same business. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like a big fish, bigger fish. Prabhupāda: Big fish is expert. He can go within the water and eat. He has to make some tackle. He is less than fish. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: After catching, he eats it. Prabhupāda: No, the fish immediately. He has to cook, he has to..., another thing. That means it is not his food. Artificially, he is eating. [break] ...has taken this photograph? Brahmānanda: Yes, she did yesterday. [break] Devotee (1): ...why do some of them carry these sticks. Prabhupāda: Sticks? Tripurāri: Daṇḍa. Prabhupāda: To drive away dogs. (laughter) [break] Jayatīrtha: The 400,000 different species of human life? There's one place in which you mention that different persons like carpenter or different tradesmen are different species. Is that...? Prabhupāda: No, no. Jayatīrtha: What's the... Prabhupāda: That is division. Varṇa, that is called varṇa. Jayatīrtha: So that has nothing to do with species. Species is like Negro or... Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Jayatīrtha: ...gods are also included in this human species. Prabhupāda: Different types of... Kinnara, 400,000. Brahmānanda: Also different planets? *Prabhupāda: Yes. But everyone can become devotee. There is no harm. It is not that because one is in the lower species, he cannot become a devotee. Everyone can become a devotee. [break] ...yoni, they can also become perfect devotee. [break] This is the power of God. He can deliver anyone without any consideration. Therefore paṇḍita is sama*-darśinaḥ, he does not make these divisions. He sees that "He is spirit soul. So let him be delivered." That's all. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśināh [Bg. 5.18]. Materially there is division. He is black, he is white, he is this, he is that. This is material. Spiritually, there is no division. One. [break] They make, what is called, spiritual division also. That is their foolishness. Spiritually there is no division. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param [Bg. 18.54]. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end) Prabhupāda: (in car:) ...sex, up to the point of death. [break] ...in his belt was urine. Brahmānanda: Yes, he got his karma. F.D.R. Jayatīrtha: He was paralyzed also. Brahmānanda: Yeah, he could not walk. [break] Prabhupāda: ...disease, heart failure, these are the modern disease. People... Cancer. Brahmānanda: You were also saying that the psychology of the abortion is that the parents do not want to take the trouble... Prabhupāda: Yes, that I explained. Brahmānanda: Yes. Of raising the child. Therefore they create some... Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the reason? They know there are so many troubles. To avoid the troubles, "Kill this." That's all. So to save trouble, people are prepared to kill child even. Brahmānanda: And that's considered advancement, in modern life, to remove trouble. The whole life is conveniences, remove trouble. That shows they will go to any extent. *Prabhupāda: So trouble that is, atyantika*-duḥkha-nivṛtti, how to mitigate or finish all trouble, that they do not know. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma [Bg. 4.9]. So long you will get this body, you will have trouble. But that they do not know, how to stop getting another body. So trouble is not mitigated in that way. You increase your entanglement, become sinful. You again take another body to suffer this sinful reaction. (end) Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago Prabhupāda: Reporter: You're taking now questions? Jagadīśa: Yes. *Reporter: This four*-division society that you advocate is contrary to everything in American tradition. How can that be accepted in America? *Prabhupāda: That has to be trained up. Just like in your country there are medical, professional men, the engineering class of men, the lawyers class of men, similarly, you can train how to become a first*-class man. The training process is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Where is Bhagavad-gītā? Bring it. Śamo damaḥ titikṣa satyaṁ śaucam ārjavam. The... Just like you have got formula how to train medical man, how to train in the mechanical man, or different department of knowledge, similarly, you can train how to become first-class man. How to become second-class man. The direction are already there. You can take advantage of the direction and train people as first-class, second-class, third-class. Reporter: When does this training begin? In the very youngest age or... Prabhupāda: Training, every training should begin from childhood. Just like you send your boys and girls to school. So any educational system should be begin from childhood. Reporter (2): What is the secret to learning to love God? Prabhupāda: Secret of learning God? Jagadīśa: Learning to love. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The secret*-that he must be a first-class man. Otherwise he does not understand what is God, and what to speak of loving Him. *Reporter (3): What is the definition again of a first*-class man? *Prabhupāda: First*-class man? Where is that Bhagavad-gītā? *Brahmānanda: Bhagavad*-gītā, they did not bring. *Prabhupāda: (aside:) What is the nonsense? You are all nonsense. First*-class man, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that he should first of all try to..., not try, practice how to control the mind, how to control the senses. Then he must be truthful. He must be very clean, outside and inside. He must be very simple. He must be tolerant. He must be full of knowledge. He must apply knowledge in practical life. And he must believe in God. These are the qualification of the first-class man. *Reporter (2): Once a person is trained in one of the classes, can he move to another class once he's been trained as, say, a third*-class man? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Any class man, you can train him. It requires training. Even one is in the last*-class, fourth-class, fifth-class, sixth-class, if he likes he can be trained up to become a first-class man. Reporter (3): How many followers do you have? *Prabhupāda: Well, to find out first*-class man is very difficult. Therefore, our followers, you cannot count a large number. We are training them to become first-class man. Still, we have got about ten thousand followers in the western countries. Reporter (3): In the western countries. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (3): Where do you train them in the western countries? Prabhupāda: We have got our headquarter in Los Angeles and we have got many centers all over the world. Reporter (4): Who is God? Who is God? Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotees: Who is God? Prabhupāda: Who is God? God means, you know... You have got any definition of God? Reporter (4): Pardon me? Harikesa: Do you have a definition of God? Reporter (4): That's beside the point. I am asking the Swami who is God. Prabhupāda: God is great. "Great" means, "who is greater than you in every respect." We understand a rich man as very great, a wise man as very great, a strong man is very great, beautiful man is very great. In this way there are six opulences: riches, strength, wisdom, beauty, education... In this way the six opulences, when you find in somebody in full, in complete, without any competition, that is God. Reporter (3): You listed five. Jayatīrtha: The sixth one is renunciation. Prabhupāda: Another, renunciation. Reporter (3): Religious, strong, beautiful... Prabhupāda: Religious? Jayatīrtha: Wealthy, riches. Reporter (3): Riches, strong, wise, beautiful, education, and renunciation. Prabhupāda: These six opulences, when you find in the greatest quantity, nobody can excel. Here in America you have got rich man, but nobody can say that "I am the richest of all." But God can say that He is richest of all. He is strongest of all, He is wisest of all, He is the most beautiful, in this way where nobody can compete and nobody can surpass, that is God. *Reporter (5): What do... You said there are four classes and the first*-class is to rule? Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Reporter (5): The first*-class should rule? *Jagadīśa: What do the first*-class men do? Jayatīrtha: Is their position to rule? *Prabhupāda: No. First*-class man means... I have already explained. He is the brain. Everyone should take advice from him. That is first-class man. And he will give perfect advice. That is first-class man. Reporter (5): What does he do? Prabhupāda: He does give you advice. If you take his advice, then you get perfect advice. Reporter (5): What do the other classes do? *Prabhupāda: Other classes... The second*-class, they are supposed to be administrator. They are very... They are also very strong. They do not go away when there is fighting. They have got a ruling capacity, and they are charitable. They have got seven qualifications. So... But he rules according to the advice of the first-class men. *Reporter (5): Then... Well, how about the third and fourth*-classes? *Prabhupāda: Third*-class means they should engage themselves, how to produce food and give protection to the cow. It is said... Reporter (5): The cow? Prabhupāda: Cow, yes. Reporter (2): The cow? *Prabhupāda: Yes, cow, from where you get milk, that cow. So the exact word is used in Sanskrit, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Vaiśya, the third-class man, is called vaiśya. So his duty is how to produce food, food grains, for both for the animals and the man. And he gives protection to the cows. As the second-class man, the administrator, he gives protection to the human being from danger, similarly, the third-class man is entrusted to give protection to the cows. Cow is very important animal in the society because it is supplying milk, the most nutritious food. And... Find out. This is the third-class man's duty. And the fourth-class man means general worker. He has no brain, he simply helps the other three classes: first-class, second-class, and the third-class. And below the fourth-class men, they are called fifth-class, sixth-class. So they are called lower class, less than the fourth-class. So the society should be generally divided into four classes. As I have given example, there is head, arm, belly, and leg. Reporter (3): (a woman) Where... Do women fit into this social structure? You keep referring to man. Prabhupāda: Woman is not equally intelligent as a man. Reporter (3): Equal in intelligence? *Prabhupāda: Not equal intelligence. In the psychology, practical psychology, they have found that the man's brain has been found up to sixty*-four ounce, woman... Sixty-four ounce, man's brain. And woman's brain has been found, thirty-six ounce. So therefore woman is not equally intelligent like man. Reporter (3): So where does she fit? Prabhupāda: You will find in practical psychology. Reporter: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Practical psychology. Brahmānanda: She's asking where does woman fit into this structure? *Prabhupāda: Now, woman is supposed to be assistant of man. If woman is faithful wife of the first*-class man, then she also becomes first-class. If she is assistant of the second-class man then he is also second-class. If she is assistant of the third-class man, then she is also third-class. Because she is assistant, so, according to her husband, or protector, she becomes first, second, third, fourth. Reporter (3): But she doesn't have any structure at all until marriage? *Prabhupāda: No, she has got structure*-she has got brain. I have already told. But not as good as man's brain. *Reporter (3): You means she's not qualified as first, second, or third*-class until she marries? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman requires to be protected*-in childhood by the father, in youthhood by the husband, and in old age by the elderly sons. *Reporter (2): What is your feeling in regard to Mrs. Gandhi's actions in India at the present time, particularly in relation to what you're saying about women? Is what's happening there because she has a thirty*-six ounce brain and is incapable of ruling? Prabhupāda: Well, what is scientific proof, that is equally applicable to Mrs. Gandhi or to any ordinary woman. Reporter: Is she having problems because she is a woman, though? If a man were in her position... Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why you are trying to put me in the emergency law? (laughter) Reporter (2): In the what? Devotee: In the emergency rule. Reporter (2): Did you say emergency room or emergency law? Brahmānanda: Emergency rule that is going on in India. Jayatīrtha: He will be arrested if he says like that. Reporter (2): Oh. *Prabhupāda: But one thing I can say, generally. There was a great politician, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, under whose name in New Delhi there is a quarter called Canakya Purī. All the foreign embassies are situated there. He said, viśvāso naiva kartavyaṁ strīṣu rāja*-kuleṣu ca: "Never trust a woman and a politician." That is his remark, of course, I do not say anything. (Devotees laugh) Reporter (3): Are these books all... Have you written all of these books or are they by other philosophers of... Prabhupāda: Yes, I have written all these books. Reporter (3): Who has published them? Prabhupāda: We have got our own publishing house, Bhaktivedanta Trust. But we are selling our books very nice. Reporter (3): Is that part of your income, to run a... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, that is our only income, by selling books. Reporter (2): You commented that, you gave the words "Never trust," if I understood you right, "never trust an old man and a politician?" Jayatīrtha: A woman or a politician. Prabhupāda: That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's remark. Reporter (3): Jonathan who? Brahmānanda: Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Prabhupāda: You perhaps know. There is a embassy quarter in New Delhi which is called Cāṇakya Purī under his name. He was a great politician. About three thousand years ago when there was the reign of Candragupta, he was the prime minister. [break] Reporter (3): The parade on Saturday, would that be down the same route it was last year with the thing at the Civic Center? Jayatīrtha: Yes. Reporter (3): You'll be serving food? Jagadīśa: Yes. Reporter (3): And you got all the civic permits this year? You ran into quite a bit of trouble last year, as I recall. Jagadīśa: We started very early this year. Reporter (3): Do you have permits for the warm food? Is that what you didn't have last year? Śrī Govinda: No, it's all food that's packaged. So it's... Jagadīśa: We have to package it. Reporter (3): And your celebration's at 1:30 on the Civic Center? Jagadīśa: It begins at 1:00 from State and... Śrī Govinda: The city has changed it to 1:30 on Saturday. Reporter (3): State and Quincy? Śrī Govinda: State and Quincy, then to the Civic Center. Reporter (3): And you'll be serving warm and hot packaged food. Śrī Govinda: Just cold packaged food. Reporter (3): The cookies and the... Śrī Govinda: Called lugloos and halavā and poppers. Reporter (3): Is that what you served last year? Śrī Govinda: Yes. And cold water also. Reporter (3): Is that why you're in Chicago, for the parade? Or, there's something tonight in Evanston? Śrī Govinda: There's an open house tonight at the temple. *Reporter (3): What will happen? What will you be doing Thursday and... What day is today? Thursday or Fri...? I hate to show my thirty*-six ounce brain. (laughs) Thursday and Friday, will you be having more celebrations? Śrī Govinda: Yes, there's celebrations going on at the temple daily throughout the day. Reporter (3): Then where does he go? Jagadīśa: Next, to Philadelphia. Reporter (3): How do you address him in the general? Is he called Swami? Jagadīśa: He's addressed by his affectionate disciples as Śrīla Prabhupāda or Your Divine Grace. Reporter (3): OK, so I would speak of him as Your Divine Grace. Does he go to Philadelphia for another festival? Jagadīśa: Yes. Reporter: Do you fly? Jayatīrtha: Yes. (end) Room Conversation after Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago Prabhupāda: ...still avoid that position. (laughter) Where is the independence? Where is the independence of woman that she has to carry the weight of the pregnancy and the man is free? What is the answer to this question? Hmm? Answer Viśakha. Viśakha: A woman is trapped by her body. She has no choice. By her body she must. Prabhupāda: So she is already dependent on nature's law that man is free from becoming pregnant and the woman has to take the burden. Then where is the independence, equal right? Equal right means sometimes man may become pregnant, sometimes woman may become pregnant, but why only woman should become pregnant and the man goes away and she has to take care of the children, beg from government or this and that? Is that independence? Eh? Satsvarūpa: For them, the independence has become contraception. "I don't have to have the child," they say. *Prabhupāda: That means you commit another sinful activity. Then you become dependent on nature. You'll be punished. The punishment goes to you. In this way... And the whole thing becomes cumbrous. So where is the benefit of equal right, independence? Phalena paricīyate. We have to see the result of every action-whether the result is beneficial. If the result is not beneficial*-the action is not beneficial. There is cases of rape cases. The victims are women. Why the victim is not man? Why? In every rape case the sufferer, or the victim, is woman. And why not the man? Jagadīśa: Male means predominator, female means predominated. Prabhupāda: Then? Where is the independence? Why artificial independence? *Harikeśa: In this brain weight matter, the sixty*-four ounce and thirty-six ounce, is that every brain, male brain, is...? Prabhupāda: No, no. *Harikeśa: No. That is what they think you've said, that every male brain is sixty*-four ounces, every woman is thirty-six ounces. *Prabhupāda: No, no. The highest brain substance found in man is sixty*-four ounce. Harikeśa: They did not understand that. Nitāi: He said it clearly. *Prabhupāda: And the highest brain substance in woman found, thirty*-six ounce. So that proportion is always there. It may be twenty ounce, forty ounce, but brain substance in man is more than the woman. That is a fact, always. Harikeśa: Is that in the *Vedas* also? Prabhupāda: No, I am talking of the psychology. I have given the name, Dr. W.S. Urquhart. When I was student, he said. So he is a great authority in psychology. So I have given the date. But they say, "Now they have improved." Then what can be said? But they could not improve this position: they have become pregnant. For the last hundred and thousands and millions of years, in the history we hear that woman is pregnant. We never heard the man is pregnant. So where is the progress? If you are actually making progress, so millions of years ago, the history we hear... Even Rāmacandra, millions of years, Lord Rāmacandra. Sītā became pregnant, not Rāmacandra. If you take history, now where is the improvement? Millions of years ago, Rāmacandra. Sītā became pregnant, not Rāmacandra. The law of woman's becoming pregnant, millions of years was there. And what improvement have they made now? They say, "We have made improvement." What is that improvement? Millions of years ago, Sītā, she became pregnant, and Rāmacandra did not become pregnant. Man did not. So what is the improvement at the present moment? Is there any instance, a man is now becoming pregnant. And not the woman? So where is the improvement? Jagadīśa: Even all species of life it is the same. Prabhupāda: Inauspicious? Brahmānanda: In all other species... Prabhupāda: Yes. Even in animals, the female animal becomes pregnant. That is the law. So where is independence? Let them pass resolution that "Henceforward, man will have to become pregnant." Is it possible? Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the whole civilization, American western civilization, is now bewildered by this theory of woman's liberation. Prabhupāda: But how they will be liberated on this point? First of all let me know. Jagadīśa: They're simply crazy. Harikeśa: They may bring up the argument that they are not concerned that they have to bear children just as long as they can be superior. Prabhupāda: Oh. This argument is like: "You go on beating me with shoes; still I am independent. I don't mind you are beating me with shoes, but I am independent." It is the argument like that. Devotee (1): There were supposed to be some aldermen here, but one of them was a woman and it has been on the news already about what you've said and she doesn't want to come now. Prabhupāda: Alderman? Brahmānanda: They're like city council men. But in this case it's a city councilwoman. So she has refused to come because the comment... There has been a lot of publicity created. (laughter) So they are speaking on the radio that "The Swamiji has come to solve all the problems by saying that woman is inferior to men." Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. (laughter) So what the man says? Harikeśa: They are being quiet. They are too afraid to say. Prabhupāda: That means they are accepting. When they are quiet... Quiet means... Maunaṁ śamyati rakṣaṇam. If there is some argument and you remain quiet that means indirectly you accept. Harikeśa: They are thinking that if the man were to speak out, then he would not be able to get his sex pleasure. The woman would withhold sex pleasure from the man if he were to speak out. Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. At least in America, I know, they pay man for sex pleasure. Is it not a fact? Eh? Jagadīśa: I didn't hear, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Sometimes woman pays man for sex pleasure. Jagadīśa: Sometimes, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is one lady. She would like to come and see you. She is the mother of one of our devotees. But she is coming wearing tilaka and a bead bag. *Prabhupāda: Very good. (pause) But I am not speaking of my experience. When we speak, we speak from the śāstra. So this woman's dependence is described in Manu*-saṁhitā. And there are many instances. Just like Kuntī. Kuntī was not ordinary woman. She was very learned, exalted woman. Brahmānanda: This is one point, that in our devotional line there are spiritual leaders who have been women such as Kuntī. She gave... Prabhupāda: But still... Therefore I say. Still, she remained dependent on their son. That is is my proposition. Just like the sons, they lost the game and they were to be banished. Kuntī was not banished. So when the sons went to forest, Kuntī also followed because she thought that "I am widow. I am dependent on my sons. So wherever my sons will remain, I shall remain." She was not... She did not lose the game; neither she was ordered to go to the forest. Similarly, Sītā, Sītā, wife of Lord Rāmacandra. Lord Rāmacandra was requested by His father to go to the forest, not Sītā. Sītā was also a king's daughter. So she could go to her father that "My husband is going to the forest. Let me go to my father's house." She did not go. She preferred that "I shall go with my husband." So when husband said that "You are not banished. You stay at home," she said, "No. I am dependent on You. Wherever You shall go, I must go." This is Vedic culture. Brahmānanda: Her chastity was her great virtue. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the thing. Brahmānanda: Nowadays that is no longer true. Prabhupāda: Nowadays may be different, but I am speaking of the Vedic ideas, that woman in all circumstances, unless the husband is crazy or something like that, mad, or..., in every case the instance is that wife is faithful and subservient to the husband. That is the Vedic culture. Even the husband goes out of home, vānaprastha, the wife also goes with him. When he takes sannyāsa, at that time there is no accompaniment of wife. Otherwise in gṛhastha life and even vānaprastha life, the wife is constant companion and subservient. That is the history of Vedic culture. History, Gāndhārī, because her husband was blind, so when the marriage settlement was done, she was not blind, but she voluntarily became blind by wrapping cloth. Devotee (2): She remained with the cloth wrapped for her whole life? Prabhupāda: Whole life. Devotee (2): Whole life. *Prabhupāda: She voluntarily became blind. And up to the last point of her husband's precarious condition, she remained with him. These are the examples. There are other examples. Damayanti. They became so poor that they had no clothing. So the one cloth divided into two, husband and wife. So these instances are in the Vedic literature, that wife remains always faithful and subservient to the husband. That is their perfection. Now the Americans may not like this idea. That is different thing. But we are speaking of the Vedic culture. And these are the instances, vivid instances. Why Sītā accompanied her husband? And because she accompanied her husband in the jungle, the war between Rāma Rāvaṇa became possible. And it is the advice that "When you go to other countries you should not take your wife." Pathe narī*-vinārjitaḥ. Because it may create some trouble. But still, the faithful wife goes with the husband. Brahmānanda: You've used the example of this, that woman is less intelligent of the size of the brain, given by one professor in 1920. So they took offense to this because their idea is that what might have been scientific fact in 1920, in 1975 is not scientific fact. Prabhupāda: Then where is the proof? From 1920 to 1975, where is a woman who is extraordinarily bigger than man? Brahmānanda: Well, they might be able to bring some scientist who would say in 1975 that according to their calculations, there is no difference between the brain of a woman and the brain of a man. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: In other words, that, what is considered scientific fact, that changes according to the social ideas that are prevalent in a particular time. Prabhupāda: No, no. Social ideas, there is no standard social idea. That is another thing. You can change in any way. But so far physiological conditions, that has not changed. The feature of the woman's body has not changed. So how the brain will change? The bodily feature of woman as it was in 1920, it is still going on. Outwardly we see. So how inwardly it is changed? In 1920 the woman was becoming pregnant; there is no change now that man is pregnant. So how you say there is change? Brahmānanda: I don't know, but she said that they have spoken to scientists and that scientists say that the woman's brain... Now a scientist says a woman's brain and a man's brain is not different. Nitāi: No, no. She said that even though the woman's brain may be smaller, that that doesn't make a difference in intelligence. Harikeśa: No, they think it is the creases in the brain. Just like Einstein had a very small brain, but there were many creases, so they say that's why he was very intelligent, because there were creases. Prabhupāda: But since 1920 to up to date in the history, there have been many great personalities or very prominent personalities, but where is the history that women are greater than the man or are equal to the man in the history? Satsvarūpa: They have a standard answer to that that the women have always been oppressed, that the women could have become great philosophers and writers and politicians, but they were always kept in the home. So now they're going to change this, they say. It's only due to the man's oppressing them and keeping them down. Prabhupāda: So this pregnancy is also pressing. The man has pressed to become pregnant? This is man's pressure or nature's? Brahmānanda: Of course, they will try to stop that. Through contraceptive methods and abortion, they will try to stop having children. Prabhupāda: But that is not stopping. That is artificially taking some other measures. That is not stopping. Harikeśa: The two countries that have women as leaders are in the headlines all the time. Like Israel, Golda Meir, they are always war between there and Egypt. Brahmānanda: Argentina also. Harikeśa: Argentina, and India. Now there will be war. Wherever there is woman in charge, there is war, disruption. But they think because they are in charge, that proves they are equal. Prabhupāda: I think in Indian history she is the first woman to be in charge of the state. Before her, there is no instance of woman becoming in charge. Brahmānanda: In Śrī Lanka also, they have woman in charge. That is also considered Indian. *Prabhupāda: According to Manu-saṁhitā, which is Vedic laws, it is said that "Woman is not to be given freedom." They have to be protected. According to Vedic civilization, women, children, old man, brāhmaṇa, and cow*-they are to be given protection. The state should give protection. [break] ...the defect of modern civilization is that vox populi. Nitāi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Everything is passed by popular vote. But that is also defective. Brahmānanda: You brought that out nicely by giving the example of Nixon. He received the largest popular vote of any president in the history, and he was also then pulled down. Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi also. She got the largest number of vote... Brahmānanda: Even more than her father she received. Prabhupāda: So what is the value of these votes? If, by vote, if you select a wrong man and again you try to drag him down, then what is the use of this popular vote? Even in Communist country, the, what is called, Krushchev? He was the head. Now nobody knows where he is. Brahmānanda: Stalin also. He was... Prabhupāda: Stalin died. Brahmānanda: But after he died, they completely discredited him. They pulled down his statues and he was completely disgraced. Devotee: A nonperson, they call him. It's the word they give, like Krushchev also is a nonperson. Prabhupāda: Non. Brahmānanda: Well, they consider them not to have existed. Prabhupāda: Oh. Brahmānanda: It is such a... In that way they have disgraced... Prabhupāda: Erased from the history. Brahmānanda: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: So it will create some agitation? Brahmānanda: Yes. Harikeśa: Oh, yes. Devotee: It was NBC? Brahmānanda: No, it's a local station. Harikeśa: They may put that on nationwide. It's such hot news. (laughter) Brahmānanda: I was seeing in one of these Time magazines. On the rear page they're advertising a cigarette that is especially meant for women. It's a slimmer size. The larger size is for the men; the slimmer size is for the women. And the title of the advertisement, they show one picture of a woman cleaner, sweeper. She is cleaning the floors. This picture was taken in the 1920's. It was taken in Washington D.C. because in the background they show the capitol building is there in Washington D.C. So then they have a picture of a modern woman. She's sitting there looking very nice. And they say that "You've come a long way, baby." (laughter) Whereas in the 1920's you were sweeping the floors and now you're sitting on a throne. Prabhupāda: "So you accept this cigarette." Brahmānanda: Yes. "This cigarette is meant just for you to show that you're superior." Prabhupāda: I think there was some objection, woman taking this objection, why woman's idol should be displayed in the shopkeeper's show windows. Brahmānanda: The mannequins. Prabhupāda: Yes. There was some protest. Generally, they keep the dolls of woman, beautiful woman. So there was some protest. Brahmānanda: They even now have protested... Prabhupāda: In advertisement also. Woman's pictures are so many. So why they are taking woman's picture? We also say that maidservant, 1920... Now she has become. Like the woman... There are many men like that. Why not men? Why they are taking advantage of the woman? Why there is no protest, that "Why you are taken?" There are many men who has improved from 1920 up to date. Why don't you give that picture. Why woman's picture? Where is the protest? Whenever there is some fashion dress, the woman's picture is given. Why? Is there any protest by the women for this that, "Why you are taking advantage of woman"? Jagadīśa: These days the men are doing that also more and more, dressing up so fancy and getting their pictures in the magazines. Prabhupāda: Of women? Jagadīśa: Men also. Nowadays men are also doing that, thinking that it's so important to dress in fancy clothes. Prabhupāda: No, dress, that's all right. But generally they present woman's picture. Brahmānanda: Yes, they protest that this shows that woman is being exploited. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Actually, they are just feeling frustrated because it is a fact that woman has been exploited by the men. So now they want to counteract this. Prabhupāda: No, we don't say that woman should be exploited by men. We say the man should be responsible and give protection to woman. Brahmānanda: But they feel so angry from the exploitation that they cannot accept that actually a man could protect them. *Brahmānanda: In that sense we can say that the women are inferior, but the men also, they are not first*-class. *Prabhupāda: That we also said, that there is no first*-class men. So if there is first-class man, then whole question is solved. Jagadīśa: The men are behaving just like dogs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Today in the hotel where we went there was one barber shop. And the name of the barber shop was "The home of the dog." Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning? Brahmānanda: Well, the idea is that the haircuts of the men are so long, they look like... Prabhupāda: Dog. Brahmānanda: ...shaggy dogs. *Prabhupāda: After all, all these questions can be solved if people become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no such discrimination. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. These distinctions are there on the material platform. On the spiritual platform there is no such distinction. Brahmānanda: So that is something that the reporters did not understand. This point was not discussed very fully, that actually we don't, we are not unkind to women, we are not exploiting them as others do because one who is in the spiritual life he feels he is equal to... Men, women does not matter. *Prabhupāda: So you can write that spiritually, there is no such distinction. Spiritually, Kṛṣṇa says that "Although there is distinction in the material field, low and high, but one who takes shelter of Me..." Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ, striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās. Find out this verse. Brahmānanda: Jagadīśa: But this point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult to understand, and it will only be possible for a very few persons to grasp this truth. Therefore you are encouraging us to introduce the proper social system so that gradually people may understand. Otherwise they could never accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is understood by the first*-class men. In the social system, if we don't keep a first-class man, a section, then it will not be possible, socially. Or if next alternative, that everyone agrees to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then it will be possible. That is the simplest method. You become first-class or last class; it doesn't matter. You take to this chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then you become equally in spiritual consciousness. So it is already published in the paper? Brahmānanda: Well, all the radio stations are carrying it. And the TV will probably have it tonight. Actually, this one purport might clarify the disagreement. They may not be so angry. Prabhupāda: Why do they not understand, by nature's discrimination the woman is put into greater difficulty by bearing child? Brahmānanda: That is the one thing they cannot avoid. They cannot escape. Prabhupāda: Why this arrangement is by nature? How they can change it? *Brahmānanda: Someone was telling me that there have been many instances that when women are being taken to the hospital to give birth to their children-they're in the ambulance, and they are experiencing the pains*-that they are cursing their husbands, "Why you have given me this pain?" Prabhupāda: Yes, because birth pain is very severe. Brahmānanda: They vow never to have sex again at that time. But... *Prabhupāda: (laughs) That śloka I was... Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ [SB 7.9.45]. To... The sex life and the aftereffects are full of miserable condition, so once they have sex life, they become, woman becomes pregnant, and the painful conditions are passed. But still, he or she is not satisfied, again takes the same thing, entailed by so many sufferings. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana. Because he has no knowledge, he commits means the same thing again. Jagadīśa: Chewing the chewed. Prabhupāda: Both of them suffer. But irresponsible father avoids, then the both suffering comes on the woman. She suffers the pain, birth pain, and suffers to raise the children. And the man goes away. How they are going to solve this problem? What is their answer? They become dependent on the man during sex life and purchases the pain, birth pain, and accuses the husband. And then, when the child is born she has to take care. The father may go away. The mother cannot give up the care of the children. Out of affection, she is carrying two child. So these are the aftereffects. So can the woman avoid sex, which is entailed with so much sufferings? She submits. Where is the independent woman? Therefore, if one is spiritually advanced, then she becomes. Brahmānanda: Then he becomes. Prabhupāda: She can become equal with man. Spiritually advanced man and woman, they are equal. So long one is materially encaged, this is not possible. (pause) *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Winnipeg there is one very pious east Indian man who for many years has been worshiping somewhat, worshiping Lord Śiva. And his wife is also a very quite chaste woman and sincere follower-and so were her parents*-of Lord Śiva. And he is reading your Bhagavad-gītā. He visits our temple. And I have given him the first volume of Canto Four which discusses Lord Śiva a great deal. And he has read in one of your purports that Kṛṣṇa is more pleased when you worship His devotee than when you worship Him directly. And Lord Śiva is a very great devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So he has now interpreted that to mean that if he worships Lord Śiva so nicely, then actually he is pleasing Kṛṣṇa more. So he is experiencing some difficulty because of this and I'm not quite sure how to instruct him that actually... Prabhupāda: Difficulty? Brahmānanda: That... Our Godbrother has difficulty in replying to this interpretation that Kṛṣṇa says, "You can please Me by worshiping My devotee," and Lord Śiva is the devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So therefore this man says, "Then I shall worship Lord Śiva. In that way I shall please Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: But if he accepts Lord Śiva is devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then by worshiping Lord Śiva he will be benefited. If he thinks Lord Śiva is independent, then he will not be benefited. Devotee (3): I've got him to accept that Lord Śiva is devotee of Kṛṣṇa, but there's no practical instruction in his worldly activities coming. Prabhupāda: No, vaiṣṇavānām yathā śambhuḥ: "Amongst the Vaiṣṇavas, Śaṁbhu, Lord Śiva, is the greatest Vaiṣṇava." So we worship Lord Śiva as Vaiṣṇava. We gives respect to Vaiṣṇavas. So why not Lord Śiva? Lord Śiva is a big Vaiṣṇava. But generally, the devotees of Lord Śiva, they take Lord Śiva is independent God. That is offensive. If you know that Lord Śiva is also a devotee, you can give more respect to Lord Śiva. Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, he does not chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he chants oṁ śivāya namaḥ. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Devotee (3): It's all right? Prabhupāda: He will gradually become devotee. When God, Lord Śiva, will be pleased upon him, he will advise to worship. Devotee (3): He is already trying to tell him to follow in your footsteps surely, so just before I left he said he will try once again to chant sixteen rounds of japa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. He has tried already. He has a taste for... Prabhupāda: If he simply understands that Lord Śiva is a Vaiṣṇava and if he worships Lord Śiva, then he will get the benefit. Brahmānanda: I was just thinking that in Hyderabad you also spoke something very unpopular when you were discussing about the worship of Lord Śiva and Lord Kṛṣṇa. And you used the example of the milk and the curd. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: And one man in the audience, he asked you, "Who is the milk and who is the curd?" And you said that "Kṛṣṇa is the milk, and Śiva is the curd." And he did not like that. *Prabhupāda: There is milk and the curd. So one must become milk, one must become curd. So if Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything, then He must be the milk. Sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. Morning Walk -- July 10, 1975, Chicago *Jayatīrtha: (in car:) It says, "Forgive me if this story is not well*-written. I am a woman. My brain weighs less than a man's, and I am not equal in intelligence." So she admits. "His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the seventy-seven year-old founder of the International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, said so Wednesday. The Society is dedicated to peace in the world through love of God and relinquishment of all things material. The Swami spoke seated cross-legged on an expensive looking cushion surrounded by fresh flowers, microphones and burning incense in a conference room he rented at the Sheraton Chicago Hotel. He is in town for a Kṛṣṇa parade at 1:30 p.m., Saturday down State Street in which he will ride on a flower-bedecked float. He then will fly to Philadelphia for more celebration and philosophical chats. He looked occasionally at his gold watch as he explained his life philosophy. His adoring disciple, five men, knelt at his side. 'The MAN,' " capital M-A-N, "he said, 'who loves God, controls his sense, is clean inside and out, is simple and tolerant and uses knowledge he has acquired in practical life...' " Prabhupāda: Intolerant? *Jayatīrtha: No, "and tolerant." " 'Such MEN,' " capital M*-E-N again, "he said, 'are first-class citizens and should be advisors to the world. Second and third-class MEN have not found God and should be administrators and workers.' " Not exactly right. "He spoke thirty minutes and never mentioned women. I asked how women fit into his system. 'Women,' he said, 'is not equal in intelligence to man. Man's brain weighs sixty-four ounces; *women's weighs thirty*-six ounces. It is just a fact.' He continued, 'Women are meant to assist men. That is all.' He said women do not figure in his class system except as daughters or wives. 'An unmarried woman presumably is classless. Is that,' asked a male reporter..." Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is fact. She is prostitute, that's all. If you classify, then she is prostitute. (laughter) That's all. There is no other way. Jayatīrtha: " 'Is that,' asked a male reporter, 'what is wrong with Mrs. Indira Gandhi?' The Swami hedged." Then actually they made a mistake. " 'I cannot say. I would be arrested.' " That was actually a misquote. (Prabhupāda laughs) Brahmānanda: Well, it's the idea, though. Jayatīrtha: Yeah. "The Swami now lives in Los Angeles, and he trains his followers there. Their income is from sales of his books, magazines and incense. He says he has about ten thousand followers. 'We do not have so many,' he said..." Prabhupāda: The inner meaning is there: "I shall be arrested." Brahmānanda: Yes. (laughs) That shows what is the position. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Jayatīrtha: "He said he has about ten thousand followers." Quote: " 'We do not have so many,' he said, 'it is hard to find a first*-class man.' " And then she says... *Prabhupāda: Therefore without first*-class man, nobody can become my disciple. Jayatīrtha: Then she says, "It's a pity half the population are women." Prabhupāda: I didn't say half the population... Brahmānanda: That's her comment. Jayatīrtha: That's what she said. In other words... Brahmānanda: Her comment is that if you hadn't... Jayatīrtha: ...that half of the people are disqualified already because they're women. It's not so bad. *Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not bad. It is good. Now our policy should be that at Dallas we shall create first*-class men, and we shall teach the girls two things. One thing is how to become chaste and faithful to their husband and how to cook nicely. If these two qualifications they have, I will take guarantee to get for them good husband. I'll personally... Yes. These two qualifications required. She must learn how to prepare first-class foodstuff, and she must learn how to become chaste and faithful to the husband. Only these two qualification required. Then her life is successful. So try to do that. (Car doors open, walk begins) Ordinary education is sufficient, ABCD. This is all nonsense, so big, big, sound education and later on become a prostitute. What is this education? (laughter) To make them prostitute, it doesn't require education. [break] Yesterday we saw in the television how these rascals are wasting time, talking nonsense. There was nothing, valuable talk. Foot... No, no, hand... What is that? Handprint? And the addicted murder? That was the case? [break] Within two weeks, two divorces. Devotees: Yes. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...in the Dallas there is no problem. Educate the girls how to become faithful, chaste wife and how to cook nicely. Let them learn varieties of cooking. Is very difficult? These two qualifications, apart from Kṛṣṇa consciousness, materially they should learn. There are many stories, Nala*-Damayantī, then Pārvatī, Sītā, five chaste women in the history. They should read their life. And by fifteenth, sixteenth year they should be married. And if they are qualified, it will be not difficult to find out a nice husband. Here the boys, they do not want to marry because they are not very much inclined to marry unchaste wife. They know it, that "I shall marry a girl, she is unchaste." What do you think? Brahmānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is psychology. If woman is chaste, even though she is not very beautiful, she will be liked by the husband. So train them in that way: very chaste, faithful wife and knows how to cook very nicely. Other qualification, even they haven't, that's all right. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness is being trained up. Then there will be no difficulty. And boys should be first*-class man. Then our Gurukula will be successful. What do you think? Am I right? Jayatīrtha: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Anything objectionable? Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were saying that in our society the women shouldn't cook privately for their husbands. Prabhupāda: Huh? Satsvarūpa: You were saying that everyone should take the Deity's prasādam. But it sounds like the women are being trained to cook, so... *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No, no. The thing is that Deity or at home, she must be very first*-class cook. That is wanted. That is according to convenience. If possible, they can take prasādam in the temple. If not possible, they must cook. But she must be first-class cook. That is wanted, either in the temple or outside. In India still, 80%, 90%, they are very happy in their family life, never mind one is poor or rich, because the wife knows these three things: to remain chaste and faithful to the husband, and she knows how to cook nicely. (pause) And women and men should live separately. That is also essential. Butter and fire must be kept apart. Otherwise the butter will melt. You cannot stop it. (pause) The drama was a drug-addicted boy killed some friend? Brahmānanda: It was the sailor who was killed? Prabhupāda: In that television? Jayatīrtha: I came in late. Brahmānanda: On the news? *Prabhupāda: No, no, the television. The lawyers were trying to prove handprints and so many things. The subject matter was that a drug*-addicted boy killed a friend. Hm? (pause) What is this, some stool? Jayatīrtha: This? It appears to be a leaf of some kind. Prabhupāda: Oh, leaf. *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in a purport in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you say that even fifty years ago in India the householders had separate apartments for the men and women. Prabhupāda: Not apartment, quarter. Devotee: Separate quarters in the apartment. And the husband would not see his wife during the day? Prabhupāda: No. Makhanlal: So is this the standard we should develop in our movement? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good. The example is the butter and fire should be kept separate as far as... Otherwise the butter will melt. Mātrā svasrā duhitrā vā [SB 9.19.17]. The butter and..., means man and woman. A man is butter, and woman is fire. So this is restricted even the man happens to be father, brother or son. Mātrā svasrā duhitrā vā. People cannot think of sex impulse in the presence of daughter, mother or sister. But śāstra says "No. There is possibility." Mātrā svasrā duhitrā vā na vivaktāsane vaset: "They should not be kept, should not sit together." Then people may say, "This is impossible. Maybe some tenth*-class rascal may be attracted." So the next line says, "No," vidvāṁśāpi karṣati, "it is not the question of tenth-class rascal; *even first*-class learned, he may be attracted." Not to speak of tenth-class rascal, but first-class learned may be. Not may be. It is a... Balavān indriya-grāmo vidvāṁśāpi karṣati: "The senses are so strong that it can mislead even the most learned scholar." Jagadīśa: Lord Brahmā was attracted... *Prabhupāda: Yes, to his daughter. Just see. There is the example. Lord Śiva was attracted by the Mohinī*-mūrti. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "Even if I see a wooden woman, I become attracted." (laughs) He is giving this from his..., to teach us that it is possible. So we shall go now? [break] (in car:) ...takes my advice, then I can keep her on the post and she can do greatest, service to India immediately. Immediately whole public will be her support. Brahmānanda: What would be your advice to her? Prabhupāda: My first step will be to capture all the hoarders and distribute the grains free. Immediately public will be obliged to... There are immense food grains; they are simply hoarded. They are not selling without good price. This is going on. Immediately she can capture the public. And some of the hoarders should be hanged, yes, so that in future nobody will hoard. People are hungry. And she says she has got some program, garivi hatta(?), "Drive away the poverty." This is the point. If she can supply all consumer goods for the time being free to the poor, then immediately the whole population will be after her. And the hoarders should be exemplary punished. Shoot them, that's all. Then nobody will hoard. But to remain the dictator she requires spiritual knowledge. Otherwise it will be another disaster. If she wants to remain the dictator, then she must be a spiritual man. She must become a Vaiṣṇavī. (end) Room Conversation with City Counselor -- July 10, 1975, Chicago Śrī Govinda: ...city council representative from our area. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śrī Govinda: (indistinct) to come today. Prabhupāda: Very good. Very good. City Counselor: Thank you. No, I have the pleasure of having the temple located in the area which I represent on the city council, and I've found the temple to be a welcome addition to the city. I have no questions. There are formalities which have to be met in order for the temple to be repaired. And I'm sure that as soon as these formalities are met then the work can proceed, but er... Prabhupāda: What are the formalities? Śrī Govinda: There's been some delay in the approval on the building due to different building violations and we have to receive approval from the zoning board of appeals, then the city council. And it's a matter of time. But also there has been some opposition in the city council, and... Prabhupāda: So what can I do? What is the difficulty? What do you want from us? City Counselor: Really nothing. The only problem is that there are certain rules and regulations that all the citizens of Evanston must comply with. And that's all that has been asked to be done. Originally, as I expressed, there were some... This property, the temple, is located in an area which is zoned for business. And there were some originally who wished to maintain that... Prabhupāda: But there are so many churches... City Counselor: Yes, there are many churches, yes. And I think... Prabhupāda: So what is the fault if there is a temple? City Counselor: Well, I think the... Originally, again I say, some of the no..., not I, but some had some objections to any church, any temple... Prabhupāda: But already there are churches. I have seen so many churches surrounding our temple. City Counselor: But I think that that is no longer a problem with the zoning. I think they accept the temple because they have seen that the... Prabhupāda: The churches are not problem? Only the temple is problem? City Counselor: No, I don't think that's the situation. Prabhupāda: Then, what is the situation? City Counselor: Well, I cannot read the minds of those who objected. Again I was not an objector. Prabhupāda: But you are the head. You should judge. If the churches are not objectionable, why the temple should be objectionable? City Counselor: May I explain? I am one of eighteen who make the decision. And... Prabhupāda: No, no, decision, you may speak on our behalf, but if there are so many churches what is the fault of one temple? City Counselor: Again I have spoken in favor of the temple. I think that there were a number that... Prabhupāda: So you plead like that, that there are so many churches, why our temple is the only objectionable? What is this? City Counselor: Well, I have no objection. I can't say for the others. Prabhupāda: You have not. Why they have objection? If they can allow so many churches, so what is the temple has done? We are praying God. We have got Deity worship. What is the wrong there? City Counselor: Nothing, nothing is wrong. Prabhupāda: Then? What is your answer? Jagadīśa: They say that we are weird. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Weird? Jagadīśa: Weird. Prabhupāda: What is that? Jagadīśa: Strange. Prabhupāda: Strange. Śrī Govinda: Yes, in dress. Prabhupāda: So is there any law that if the dress is strange we cannot worship? Jagadīśa: They want... They have a... Prabhupāda: But they may want whimsically, but is there any law? Jagadīśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then what is this nonsense? City Counselor: It shouldn't be. Prabhupāda: Then what can I do? If they go out of law, then what can I do? Jagadīśa: They want to make their own law. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. City Counselor: Again, I think the problem now will be complying with the building laws in order to get the temple in safe condition. That's the only problem now. I don't think that there is opposition to the temple per se. Prabhupāda: Then it is... It comes to the conclusion of suppression, that "Give the dog a bad name and hang it." "You are not properly dressed; therefore you should stop it." It is like that. Śrī Govinda: We have spoken very sincerely to the other aldermen and Mr. Winfield practically is the only one who has responded. Prabhupāda: So public vote. Elect Nixon and then drag him down. This is public opinion. Sometimes make him president, sometimes drag him down. So what is the value of these votes? City Counselor: Well, I can certainly pledge that wherever I find and can identify prejudices... Prabhupāda: If they become unreasonable, whimsical, then who can defend? There is no such law that one should have a particular dress in their church or temple. There is no such law. But they are insisting about the dress. What is this? City Counselor: Again, I will pledge that whenever I can expose such prejudices on the parts of my fellow aldermen, I will do it. Prabhupāda: No, that is very kind of you, but if they are persistent on majority vote, then you are nowhere. So the majority, if they want whimsically to do something, you cannot check. City Counselor: No, but I can talk. Prabhupāda: You can talk. We are also talking, but they don't care. This is the difficulty. Jagadīśa: They are making it difficult, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but it seems that they will not be able to check us. Prabhupāda: Then we shall have to go to court if they do something whimsically. You speak to your best, that's all. That is our request. City Counselor: That I will do. *Prabhupāda: That is going on everywhere, whimsically. Everything is being done whimsically. Again it is being reformed whimsically, again being the same. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], chewing the chewed, that's all, no standard. That is the fault of the modern civilization. You make your own standard, I make my own standard, he makes his own standard. And therefore there is fight between the leaders. But according to our Vedic conception there is one standard. We are persisting that "You take this Vedic standard; *then you will be perfect." And if you go on manufacturing your own standard, you will never be perfect. Because you make your own standard, I make my own standard, he makes his own standard and there is fight. We are putting therefore the one standard, Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. That is our propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you take the standard given by Kṛṣṇa, you will be happy. That is our propaganda. (end) Morning Walk -- July 11, 1975, Chicago Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...hoping to bring the buses here to take a photograph with you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning. [break] Śrī Govinda: ...Mr. Candra Ahuja Tir(?). He has loaned us the Continental which we have been using to drive you in. Prabhupāda: Oh. You are medical practitioner? [break] Cooler, cooler nowadays? [break] Then other big, big telescope, how many miles it can see? Jayatīrtha: You can see millions of miles. Prabhupāda: How many million? (laughter) Jayatīrtha: You can see light years away. Many, many, many millions of miles with the big ones. Prabhupāda: They can see four billion? Jayatīrtha: Maybe not four billion. Prabhupāda: Then it is imperfect. The radius, what is called, radius? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Diameter? Prabhupāda: Diameter is four billion miles, universe. Tripurāri: One universe. *Prabhupāda: One universe. This is the smallest. Four*-headed Brahma. [break] ...all universes taken together, that is one-fourth energy. And three-fourth energy is spiritual world. Ekāṁśena sthito jagat [Bg. 10.42], one part. [break] ...asat koṭi-yojana, one yojana equal to eight mile. And one koti means ten million. So fifty into eight, two hundred, into..., ten into ten million..., it comes. I have calculated four billion. How many millions make a billion? Harikeśa: A thousand. [break] Prabhupāda: Sun is situated in the middle from this circumference, two billion up and down. And the moon is situated above the sun, 1,600,000 miles. How they can go to the moon? Devotee: They think the moon is closer than the sun. Prabhupāda: They may think, but we are thinking in this way. Who is right? Devotee: We are right, the *Vedas*. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...thinking is right because they could not go to the moon. They say they went, but actually they could not. Now they are disappointed. [break] Devotee: ...Prabhupāda? He had some question whether Lord Nityānanda ever took sannyāsa. Prabhupāda: No. [break] ...went with the sannyāsīs as brahmacārī. [break] ...philosophy? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Philosophy book. Harikeśa: Philosophy book is waiting until... Brahmānanda: No, Hayagrīva is editing it now. Harikeśa: Oh, now? Jaya. Satsvarūpa: We're going to do some of the chapters in installments in Back to Godhead. We're going to do Darwin as soon as possible, in a month or two. [break] Prabhupāda: ...philosophy is the ultimate, Vedānta. Vedānta philosophy. And Bhāgavata is the commentary on the Vedānta philosophy. [break] ...Darwin's theory. Wherefrom he begins? *Jayatīrtha: He begins in the ocean. He says that some fish*-type animal climbed out of the ocean and began to breathe the air. Prabhupāda: Then wherefrom the ocean came? Devotee: He doesn't say. Śrī Govinda: In the beginning on the planet there was great turbulence and the oceans were stirring, and then there was some lightning charge. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the lightning came? And wherefrom the ocean came? Where his philosophy is? It is a speculation. Śrī Govinda: It all began from a primeval explosion. Prabhupāda: Then same question, wherefrom the explosion came? Satsvarūpa: They say that explosion began at time zero. Prabhupāda: Huh? Satsvarūpa: Time zero. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Time zero? Satsvarūpa: Time began then, at time zero. And they say that if you ask the question, "What was before that?" that's not a logical, sensible question. Prabhupāda: Why? Satsvarūpa: They say it's a question that should not even be asked. Prabhupāda: No, then you are rascal. You are beginning from zero. How you can begin from zero? Devotee: Everything comes from nothing then. Prabhupāda: So that is not philosophy. Śrī Govinda: They say it all originates from a giant mass of primordial matter. Prabhupāda: Then same comes..., that "Wherefrom the matter comes?" Harikeśa: They say it's an accident. Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense, another rascaldom. Where is the accident? Nothing is accident, everything is cause and effect. We say that in the beginning there was God or word of God. In Bible they say? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So God was there and God's word was there. That is the beginning, our beginning. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Aham evāsam agre. And Bhagavad*-gītā, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. This is our philosophy, "Everything begins from God." Now you can say, "Wherefrom God came?" But that is God. God existing, He is not caused by any other cause, He is the original cause. Anādir ādiḥ: "He has no beginning, but He is the beginning of everything." This is conception of God. Anādir ādir govindaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. That ādi is Govinda, person, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. We find from the history. Brahmā is the beginning. He is deva, one of the demigods. Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām. So He is the cause of Brahmā also. So this is our philosophy. We don't begin from zero or accident. This is not our philosophy. Harikeśa: Darwin never tried to understand the... Prabhupāda: No, no, he admitted that he speculated. He is not a philosopher, he is a speculator. He has admitted that "It is my speculation. I think like this." Harikeśa: He started his speculation from the creation of life. He didn't... Prabhupāda: Anywhere, speculation is not science nor philosophy. We don't admit. No hypothesis. Satsvarūpa: They call the *Vedas* speculation. They say the *Upaniṣads* are speculation. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, not speculation. *Īśopaniṣad*, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1], everything beginning from īśa, the supreme controller... Where is speculation? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that the *Vedas* are written by man so they are imperfect. Prabhupāda: So you are less than a dog. It is written by man. That's all right. But you are less than a dog. You have no reason, no right. What is your philosophy? What is the value of your philosophy? It is speculation. We don't say, "It is written by man." Apauruṣeya. They may say whatever they..., we don't say. If somebody says, "Your father name is that," and I know my father's name. "What you are? You are not authority to say what is my father's name. I know very well." So it is their suggestion like that, "Your father's name is this." We don't say that "My father name is..." Is that very good suggestion? You don't know anything of my family. How you say that "Your father name is this?" Is it not another rascaldom? You do not know anything about my family, and you say that "Your father's name is this." What is this logic? You cannot say what is my father's name. You do not know about my family. Harikeśa: Darwin's whole theory rests on the fact, the speculation, that he can show bones. They take these bones and these evidences, archeological... Prabhupāda: Anyway, it is not possible that he has seen all the bones. That is not possible. So taking it that he has studied by seeing the bones, but I can say very easily that it is not possible for a person like you to see all the bones. That is my challenge. How you can say that you have seen all the bones? You say, "Millions and millions of years ago..." You live for fifty years. How you have seen all the bones? That is imperfect. You are a limited person. How it is possible that you have seen all the bones? What is the answer? Satsvarūpa: They say they haven't found all the bones, but what they've found is conclusive evidence. Prabhupāda: But then you cannot do that. If you have seen all the bones, then you can conclude. You say, "Some of the missing." So how it is fact? You did not see it. Satsvarūpa: Just this year they found a skull that was millions of years older than any human skull they found before. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But still, you cannot say that you have seen all the skulls. That is not possible. Devotee: They will say they have not even found one skull from the Vedic culture. Prabhupāda: Oh. No, Vedic culture do not keep skull, they burn it. Therefore there is no opportunity for you to see the Vedic culture. Then you become defective. Because you cannot see the skulls of Vedic culture. We burn it. So therefore your conclusion is defective. *Harikeśa: So the only bones they find are the bones of the fifth, sixth, seventh*-class men. *Prabhupāda: Yes, of the monkey*-class men. (laughter) That's all. Therefore you conclude that the man comes from monkey. That is the conclu... Human being, Vedic culture, they burn it. So they have no opportunity to see the human being skull. The monkeys, they do not burn. So he has seen only the monkey skull, and his conclusion is, "Man is from monkey." Brahmānanda: Actually they are simply interested in bones, but this is the activity of the dog. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, he finds, (laughter) like that. So it is dog's philosophy. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...history in the I.A., intermediate. So a big professor, Dr. Kalidasa Nath, he began to speak, "There was stone age, simply stone there was," in this way. And I immediately..., that "What nonsense you are speaking, stone? There was nothing?" According to the anthropology of Darwin... From the very beginning, when I was a student, I did not believe this Darwin's theory. [break] ...study one after another, chronologically, as Darwin says, skull, it is not possible at all. For any single man it is not possible. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 8,400,000 species. Prabhupāda: Yes. Has he gone down the water? Then what is the...? simply speculation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Factual scientific study would mean to study all 8,400,000 species? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is scientific study. But that is not possible. Therefore your theory is always imperfect because you cannot say that "I have studied all." You simply guess, "There is some gap, millions of years." So this is not study. Brahmānanda: They say even there's a missing link, a part that they cannot explain. So they admit... Prabhupāda: So that is not science. Harikeśa: It's the most important part too. Prabhupāda: Therefore we say they are rascals. And rascals will believe. Jayatīrtha: Once you said the missing link was your foot in their face. (laughter) [break] Prabhupāda: ...logic also it is admitted that inductive logic is imperfect; *deductive logic is perfect. [break] ...logic means śrota*-panthā, paramparā, śruti, Vedic language, śruti. Śruti pramāṇa. Pramāṇa means evidence, and śruti means Veda. Pratyakṣa, anumāna, śruti. Pratyakṣa means direct, direct evidence, and anumāna, hypothesis. That is Darwin's theory, something like that. And śruti, Vedic. So out of these three kinds of evidences, śruti-pramāṇa is accepted as supreme, neither anumāna nor pratyakṣa. Pratyakṣa, you are seeing the sky, but you cannot say the length and breadth. You cannot say. You are seeing daily. If you say, "I have got this telescope," so that is an imperfect. and how you can see with your eyes directly, direct sense perception? Hypothesis, anumāna, guessing, that is also not perfect. And śruti, we take śruti from the perfect person, Kṛṣṇa. He says, aham evāsam agre: "Before the creation I was there." We take simply. *Lakṣmī*-nārāyaṇa: Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that in the beginning of creation He sent forth generations of men among the demigods. So the bones that they have found of those... Prabhupāda: Hm? *Lakṣmī*-nārāyaṇa: I said the bones that they have found so far... Prabhupāda: Who? *Lakṣmī*-nārāyaṇa: Of the men that were living so many thousands of years ago. Prabhupāda: But they are not demigods. *Lakṣmī*-nārāyaṇa: No. But who are the bones... Where are those living entities now? Where they have gone? Prabhupāda: You can go to the higher planetary system and try to see there, bones of the demigods. Besides that, according to our śāstra, when Brahmā dies, then everything is finished. So you have no chance to see. Where is your chance? Because everything will be finished, you will be finished, everything finished, with the death of Brahma, so you cannot study Brahma's bones. Just like taste of potassium cyanide. As soon as you taste, you are finished. (laughter) So you cannot say what is the taste. *Lakṣmī*-nārāyaṇa: But the bones of those people that they've found, where are their bodies now? Have they gone to some other...? Prabhupāda: No, no, you might have found in your country. But that is not final that you have seen all the bones. [break] Darwin has... He is now dead. Now, even nowadays they are finding new bones. So how he studies perfect? He is now dead and gone. Brahmānanda: Actually they are finding bones now, they claim, that challenge his theory. They are much older than what he ever thought. So they have to change all the calculations. *Lakṣmī*-nārāyaṇa: Even their method for dating the bones is defective also. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Lakṣmī*-nārāyaṇa: They have a scientific, not scientific, but they have a process how they date the bones. It's called the carbon 14 dating process, and it's been proved defective. [break] Jayatīrtha: ...so many bones, they should draw the conclusion that the big problem is death. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is impossible, sir. You lick up your bones, but you have to die. You have to lay down your bone now. [break] Devotee: If the Vedic culture was a superior culture, how come man gave up the Vedic culture to take to the materialistic life? one Prabhupāda: No one has given up. You are taking up. No one has given up. Devotee: But five thousands years ago... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Otherwise how you are getting if it was given up? How you are getting now? It was not given up. Who says it was given up? Devotee: Well, America was formed on a materialistic society. Prabhupāda: America may say, but if it was given up, then how you are getting now? Brahmānanda: Now Americans are taking it up. Prabhupāda: Yes. How it is given up? *Lakṣmī*-nārāyaṇa: They will say that it became dormant. Not that many people liked it anymore so... Prabhupāda: Not dormant. It is coming. It is coming. We have not lost it. It may be that a few people know it, but it is not lost. It is not that missing bone; it is not like that. Devotee: They say like in Chicago they're so prosperous, but they don't worship Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Who? Devotee: Here in Chicago, there's so many big buildings and there's so much money. Prabhupāda: So building, what you will do with building? You have to leave the building and go to hell. What you are doing for that? So long, fifty years, you can lick up the building. Then, after all, you will be thrown into the hell. Then what you are going to do about that? If you cannot stay in the building, then what is the use of constructing building? Suppose you construct one building here and the policeman..., "No, you cannot stay here." Still you construct building? Devotee: They say they live for sixty years, so enjoy it while they can. Prabhupāda: So that is foolishness. You are making, (imitates piledrivers sound) "Dung! Dung!" very solid, but you are not going to live. The "Dung! Dung!" but that's all. This is called foolishness. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think there was one great personality-I forget his name*-he was going to live as long as how many millions of years that he had hairs in his head. What is that story? Brahmānanda: The story of the man who was on the beach... *Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Romaharṣaṇa. Romaharṣaṇa Muni was standing on beach and was chanting. So Nārada Muni was passing: "Then why don't you make a cottage here?" He was: "Oh, how long I shall...?" That, his life, was: when one hair will fall, one Brahmā will die. (laughter) And in this way all the hairs, when they will fall*-all the Brahmās will die-then he will die. And he was thinking, "How...?" Actually that is a fact. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who was that, Romaharṣaṇa Muni? *Prabhupāda: Romaharṣaṇa. [break] ...basic principle of Vedic civlization. They did not... Vyāsadeva, such a learned scholar, he was sitting in a cottage. Lord Śiva, such a big powerful, and the whole material energy, Parvati, is his wife*-he is sitting under a tree. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore a sannyāsī is always moving around, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Vairāgya. That is required. That is civilization. Vairāgya and jñāna. Jñāna*-vairāgya, knowledge and renunciation, or detachment, this is the goal of human life. Because he is attached to this material world, he has to take birth after birth, birth after birth. So to save this botheration, one has to be detached. This is the basic principle of Vedic civilization, jñāna-vairāgya. And detachment is possible when one is in full knowledge, jñāna. And this bhakti-yoga process is detachment. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. So it is a civilization of detachment, not attachment. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That detachment is a form of wealth for the renounced order. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the gain of human life. Arthadam. This is meaning. Artha means meaning. Arthadam. Durlābhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. This human life, form of life, is very, very rare. So one can say, "You will also die like cats and dog. How it is rare?" No, yes, adhruvam arthadam: "Although it is temporary, it will not stay, but you can have meaning of life." Adhruvam arthadam. Everything is there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The materialistic people say that... When they see someone in the detached position, they say, "He is impoverished." They are so confused that they conclude the opposite. Prabhupāda: Impoverished? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Impoverished means they are poor. *Prabhupāda: Then what is the poor? What you are rich? You are whole day working day and night, and we are not working, getting our prasādam. I am poverty*-stricken, or you are poverty-stricken? You rascal, whole day you are working... Brahmānanda: For a dry biscuit. *Prabhupāda: ...like an ass, and we are getting, sitting, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and getting our food. So you are poverty*-stricken or I am poverty-stricken? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A poverty*-stricken man has to work very hard. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Lakṣmī*-nārāyaṇa: But they will say, "Well..." *Prabhupāda: They will say... First of all you see. You try to understand that this rascal is working day and night twenty*-four hours for getting his food, and we are simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and getting our food. So he is poverty-stricken or I am poverty-stricken? Brahmānanda: That means we're the rich men. Prabhupāda: I am rich man. Brahmānanda: Rich man doesn't have to work, and everything comes. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is rich man. That is the explanation given by Marshall, a great economist. He says that unless one is obliged to work, nobody will work. That is his economic impetus. So the family affection gives impetus to work. He has to maintain the family. That is, he says, that is the beginning of economic development. Marshall theory. [break] ...kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. When there is attachment on account of Kṛṣṇa, that is detachment. Yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. He is attached to everything but not for his personal self. We are spending lakhs of rupees for constructing a temple, but we are not interested to construct a house or a skyscraper building. We are not interested. That is detachment. [break] We give up. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhe-vastunaḥ: "No, no, we don't touch money." Why? If the money can be utilized for constructing a nice temple for Kṛṣṇa, why we shall say, "We don't touch money"? Yes, give me as much money as you have got. Therefore you will find in India very, very big, big, costly temple, not skyscraper building. That is the sign. If any man had any money, he would spend it for Kṛṣṇa, not for his personal self. Personally he would be satisfied with a cottage. That is India's civilization. You will find in South India one temple is more than a fort, bigger. It is impossible to construct such temple nowadays. Still you will find in Vṛndāvana that broken Govindaji's temple. If you construct such temple, even crores and crores of rupees will not be sufficient. That was done by Mahārāja Mansingha, but you don't find any palace of Mansingha. He could have construct a palace there. No, he did not do. But for Govindaji, he spent so much money. There is no such thing, attachment, detachment. We must know that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, and we are servants of Kṛṣṇa. This knowledge is required. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And when you understand that everything is belonging to Kṛṣṇa, then the next sense is that why not everything be used for Kṛṣṇa? [break] ...theory is lost or not? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? Prabhupāda: Bone theory, studying the bone. Harikeśa: I think you've broken the bone theory. (laughter) [break] Prabhupāda: (in car:) ...so where is your chance to study these colors? Jayatīrtha: That is a perfect explanation. Harikeśa: I'm going to send this tape and have them add that to the book. You defeated Darwin so quickly this morning it was wonderful. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can send. You have no chance to study. How you can theorize? (end) Morning Walk -- July 12, 1975, Philadelphia Kīrtanānanda: ...quotation from William Penn to the Indians. Prabhupāda: "I have great love and regard toward you and I desire to win and gain your love and friendship by a kind, just and peaceable life. And the people I send are of the same mind. And I shall in all things behave." And what about the shooting? (laughter) [break] ...shooting? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: It was a lie. Kīrtanānanda: They made up a saying, "The only good Indian was a dead Indian." [break] Prabhupāda: ...nation or... So? Dancing? *Jayatīrtha: But it says in the Declaration of Independence-this is part of it here*-it says that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." So they admitted that there was God. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: The founders of the nation admitted that there was God, but now they won't admit. [break] Prabhupāda: ...already very much attraction for this material world. That is called māyā. And when we are involved with these things, material prosperity, then we become more involved. On account of our material attachment, we are getting repetition of birth and death in different forms of life, and these attractions are making us more and more involved. māyāra vaibhava. People are becoming illusioned, "I am American. My country is so rich. I shall live here." But you cannot live. He is preparing for another body. So therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, anitya soṁsāre, moha janamiya, jība ke karaye gadha. Anityad means we shall not be able to stay. Unnecessarily, we are becoming involved in this material world. Now, those who built up this nation, where they have gone, nobody can say. Because after this body is fallen, where he is being carried, nobody knows. He is carried by his work, fruitive activities. Therefore they do not believe next life. Finished. [break] ...gentleman, he was very well known, brother of Rabindranath Tagore. Rabindranath Tagore was poet, and he was artist, Abanindranath Tagore. In our childhood, in a meeting, he said that "Why should we bother about the next life? Let us enjoy this life." I remember that. Most people think like that. Carvāka Muni advised like that. Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet. "Just enjoy life." "I have no money to enjoy." "Beg, borrow or steal. Bring money. Purchase ghee." "I will have to pay." "Ah! Why do you think like that?" "Then next life I will suffer." "Don't think like that. Your body will be finished. Who is coming here again?" What is that tower? Kīrtanānanda: Lighthouse. Prabhupāda: Lighthouse for the river? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Yes. These buildings are all rowing clubs. They're for boating, boathouses. Prabhupāda: Oh. So still they are rowing house? No. Kīrtanānanda: Yes. It is a big sport. They race. [break] Prabhupāda: ...idea is there in the western countries? No. Kīrtanānanda: Not very much. Although the idea is there that the best education can be secured when boys are separate in school. That idea is there. The best families have always sent their sons away to school. Prabhupāda: That should be followed in our system. Boys and girls must be separate. [break] ...introduce now. How long? What is time? Brahmānanda: It's still a little early. Prabhupāda: Early? [break] Guru dāsa: The concept in sport of celibacy is also there. The best sportsmen are supposed to not take intoxicants or also engage in sex life. That was the training. [break] *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: ...will end in this park here. Prabhupāda: Oh. It will come this way? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: It will come from the other direction and end here. Down under these trees is a very nice place. [break] Prabhupāda: ...going through the city? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: We go through the city. The city's just on the other side of these trees. Svarūpa Dāmodara: One of our Godbrothers asked why the inductive knowledge is so successful, especially to scientists? Prabhupāda: Inductive knowledge always unsuccessful. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But science finds out these laws and so many things. So to some extent it's working. Prabhupāda: No, they can extend... Just like inductive knowledge is like this: you study man. You see, first man dies, second man dies, third man dies. In this way, you can go to hundred or thousand man. But I can say that "You might not have seen that man who does not die." I can challenge that. You cannot say... Simply by studying hundred thousand man, you cannot say that all men die. I can challenge that "You have not seen the..., beyond that. So how you can conclude like that?" There may be somebody. As you say, "May be," we can say, "may be somebody who does not die." (laughter) What is the answer? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That argument is different though from the way the science does. For example, they work so hard... Prabhupāda: The science does... They conclude something, and next man changes. So that is your science. So how you can make a conclusion? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But how so many things are working under the laws...? Prabhupāda: Working, that's all right. You have seen that so many people are dying. That's all right. But I am challenging that you have not seen the next man who does not die. That you cannot answer. Svarūpa Dāmodara: For example, they find the laws of motion, Newton's laws of motion. They utilize that concept in shooting rockets. And they use exactly some mathematical formula and apply it. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but sometimes the shooting of the rocket missing. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, what we are saying is that the law that they find out by their own effort is working... Prabhupāda: So you effort is limited. How you can conclude? Svarūpa Dāmodara: So inductive knowledge is true to a certain limit. Prabhupāda: Certain extent, that's all. It is not conclusion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But to a devotee, though, there is nothing like inductive knowledge because knowledge gives by Kṛṣṇa. So it must be deductive. Prabhupāda: Deductive always. And that is easier. Kṛṣṇa says that "I come as death and take away everything." So we know that nobody can be immortal; everyone must die. Simple conclusion. Brahmānanda: We don't have to test it because Kṛṣṇa says it. Prabhupāda: Yes. You take that... *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: We could never know ourselves unless we knew all cases. Prabhupāda: No, we do not require to know. We hear from Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Person. That is perfect Devotee: That's our logic. You said that once. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our logic. Gurudāsa: But also you said once that we feel it. That is our proof. Prabhupāda: No, feel, you may wrongly feel because you are imperfect. That is not good argument. Our argument is that the message is coming from the most authorized personality; *therefore it is perfect. And we receive guru*-paramparā. That is our process. Evam paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. The rājarṣis, means very, very, big, big, stalwart persons, they accept it. Just like Arjuna gives evidence that "I accept You. You are Parabrahma." So he, next line, he says, "It is not that I am saying. But big, big personalities like Vyāsadeva, he has said. Nārada has said. Asita has said. And You are personally saying, so I have no doubt." This is our process. [break] ...Upendra, Upendra has not come? [break] ...knowledge is always imperfect. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: What about jñāna*-yogīs? *Prabhupāda: Jñāna*-yogīs, they are also imperfect. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Their knowledge is speculative. Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who is speculative on the strength of his own knowledge is imperfect. Because we are imperfect, speculation is imperfect. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: The same criticism that you made of induction was also made by John Stuart Mill and Bertrand Russell, but they became skeptics. They said, "Therefore there's no knowledge at all." *Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. That is also speculation. (laughter) "Because I have failed, therefore there is no knowledge." This is also imperfect because how I can conclude like that? I am imperfect. I cannot decide this way or that way. So that is also. Vedic knowledge says that a conditioned soul has got four defects: illusion, mistake, imperfectness and cheating. Any conditioned soul. Even Brahma, he is receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye [SB 1.1.1]. Ādi-kavi means Brahma. He is the most perfect person within this universe, Lord Brahma. So he is also receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. Any conditioned soul, beginning from Brahmā down to the ant, they are defective in four ways: illusion, mistake, imperfectness and cheating. They know that "I am imperfect." Just this Darwin. He knew that he is imperfect, and he cheated so many persons*-by false theory, which he cannot explain. He simply gives, "Perhaps millions of years' gap...," this, that. That is not knowledge. So the imperfect person is prone to become a cheater. So we should not take knowledge from the cheaters. What do you think? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We should take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prabhupāda is giving you the same knowledge, that's all. There is no question of cheating. I have received this knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, and you take this. That's all. My business is finished. Kīrtanānanda: Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the duty. Paramparā system means the spiritual master shall not give anything which is not spoken by Kṛṣṇa. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa: "You become guru under My order." "But I do not know anything nicely, how can I become guru?" "No, you have no botheration. You simply take Kṛṣṇa's word and say, and you become guru." Svarūpa Dāmodara: That saves a lot of time. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is intelligence. That is intelligence. These, all these rascals, they are unnecessarily wasting. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Simply they are wasting time. That's all. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's one of the chapters in our book that Mādhava is working, that inductive knowledge, there is nothing like inductive knowledge. It's all māyā; it's illusion. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is illusion. [break] ...western countries it is full of inductive knowledge. That's all. [break] Dr. Radhakrishnan used to say, on sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66], "It is too much." (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: He died just a few months ago. *Prabhupāda: Yes, he died, and brain fag. All his knowledge, last five, six years*-he could not recognize his own men. Gurudāsa: When we went to see him, he hardly could speak. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because of his inductive knowledge. Prabhupāda: That's all. He became a victim of the western people. Because the Oxford University was paying him very nicely, he became a servant of the western thought. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...in the evolutionary cycle, the transmigration of the soul, we were inquiring whether there's any specific details in the *Vedas* about the step by step transmigration of the spirit, of the soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. From the aquatics to the plants, and then insect, then bird, then beast, then human being. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then it's the same with the Darwin's Theory. Prabhupāda: Darwin has taken from here, and he has tried to explain in a hodgepodge way so that he may get the credit, that's all. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: The plants have more consciousness, manifest consciousness, than aquatics? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: That plants and grass, they are more conscious than aquatics. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also mentioned in the Bhāgavata, about different animals, how they are conscious, developed. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the Bhāgavata, in the later chapters, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Not up to the present Fourth Canto that... Prabhupāda: Fourth Canto there is, how one animal is more conscious than the other. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Yes. Devotee: Prabhupāda, did you say that trees have the ability to see and hear in the *Bhāgavatam*? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: How is that? Prabhupāda: Just like a vulture, he has got more seeing power than you. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. He sees the carcass, you give the example, from way up. Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles) But he can see only the carcass. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is also acintya-śakti of the vulture. He can see... He has special eyes. Prabhupāda: No, it is acintya-śakti for us, but Kṛṣṇa has given different power to different animals. For us it is acintya, not for Kṛṣṇa. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Not for...? Prabhupāda: For Kṛṣṇa there is nothing like acintya. Therefore we have to take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. [break] Balavanta: ...the Vikings first discovered America, they said. Brahmānanda: From Scandanavia came, before Columbus. Balavanta: But *Mahābhārata* describes all the continents even way before that, doesn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia Jayatīrtha: ...they're both doing extensive articles for different magazines on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And they've already done a lot of preliminary study from what I understand. So they have a few questions to ask. I think they'll write very respectful articles. So this is the girl that interviewed you at the airport. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Mrs. Anne Jones(?), she's with the Philadelphia Inquirer. Jayatīrtha: And this girl's name is... *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Sandy Nixon. Jayatīrtha: Sandy Nixon. Prabhupāda: She is a devotee, she was chanting. Jayatīrtha: So, who would like to go first? Sandy, would you like to start? *Sandy Nixon: I have questions which... I am going to be putting together a book on spiritual masters that have influenced, or that are influencing Americans today. Also in a mini*-article, I'd like to put the same thing together with just those very few that are the most important for New York Times Magazine. And also I'm doing an article for a Philadelphia magazine named Seers of Higher Consciousness. So particularly with our book in mind, these questions are to let people know what Kṛṣṇa consciousness is about. So sometimes I'm going to be asking you questions, and most of the time I might be able to answer them myself, or it might be a question which I know the answer to, but I'm going to have to ask you it as if... It might sound as if I'm stupid, but it's what I'm going to do. The first question could be a very long... I've got fifteen questions. If I could get them all answered, I'll feel just great. The first one is very basic: what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means God, and we are all connected with Kṛṣṇa, God. God is the original father. Therefore we have got intimate connection with Kṛṣṇa. So we have forgotten it, what is Kṛṣṇa, what is my connection with Him, what is the aim of life. All these questions there are. And when one becomes interested with such questions, he is called Kṛṣṇa conscious. Sandy Nixon: How did Kṛṣṇa consciousness develop? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is already there in everyone's core of heart, but due to one's material conditional life, he has forgotten it. So this process of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra means to revive that consciousness. It is already there. Just like a few days ago these American, European boys and girls, they did not know who is Kṛṣṇa. But now you have seen yesterday how their whole, that procession, throughout the whole procession, how they were chanting and dancing in ecstasy. So do you think that is artificial? No. Artificially nobody can chant and dance for hours together. That means the awakening of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It was there; by the bona fide process, it is now awakened. That is explained, Sandy Nixon: What is the difference between Kṛṣṇa consciousness and Christ consciousness? Prabhupāda: Christ consciousness is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but people do not follow the rules and regulations of Christianity. Therefore they are not awakened. The commandments of Christ, they do not follow. Therefore they do not come to the standard of consciousness. Sandy Nixon: What is unique about Kṛṣṇa consciousness that separates it from other religions? If it's a religion. Prabhupāda: Religion means primarily to know God and love Him. That is religion. And nobody knows God, and what to speak of loving Him? Nobody is trained up how to know God and how to love Him. They are satisfied by going to the church: "O God, give us our daily bread." That also not everyone goes. So the Communist says that "You don't go to the church. Bread we shall supply." So poor innocent persons, they get bread elsewhere, so they do not go to church. But nobody is serious to understand what is God and how to love Him. Nobody is serious. Therefore in *Bhāgavatam*, it is said, it is cheating religion. I profess some religion, but I do not know what is God and how to love Him. That's all. So that type of religion is cheating religion. Religion means to know God and love Him. But generally, a man does not know what is God and what to speak of loving Him? So therefore that is cheating religion. That is not religion. But so far Christian religion is concerned, there is ample chance of understanding God. But they do not care for it. Take for example, the commandment is "Thou shall not kill." But in the Christian world, best slaughterhouses are maintained. So how they can become God conscious? They disobey the commandments, do not care for Lord Jesus Christ's order. So this is not only in Christian religion. Every religion, it is going on. It is simply rubber stamp. "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian." And none of them do know what is God and how to love Him. Sandy Nixon: How does one know a bona fide spiritual master, then, that can lead them? *Prabhupāda: Who teaches these things-how to know God and how to love Him-he is spiritual master. Otherwise bogus, rascal bogus. Sometimes they mislead that "I am God." Poor people, they do not know what is God, and a rascal proposes, "I am God," and they accept it. Just like in your country they elected Nixon president and again drag him. That means they did not know who is really bona fide president, elected somebody, and again they had to business of dragging out. Similarly, people are foolish. Any rascal comes. He says, "I am God." They accept. And again they accept another. This is going on. So one must be serious student to understand what is God and how to love Him. That is religion. Otherwise, it is simply waste of time. That we are teaching. That is the difference between others and our... We are presenting Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the science, how to know Him. The Bhagavad-gītā is there, Bhāgavata is there. Not bogus. Authorized. Therefore this is the only institution which can teach how to know God and how to love Him. Two business. There is no third business. It is not our business to ask God to give us our necessities. We know God gives necessities to everyone, even one who has no religion. Just like cats and dogs. They have no religion. They do not know what is religion. But still, the cats and dogs are supplied with necessities of life. So why we should bother Kṛṣṇa, asking Him, "Give us our daily bread"? He is supplying already. Our business is how to love Him. That is religion. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ atra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vāstavaṁ vastu vedyam atra [SB 1.1.2]. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ yato bhaktir adhokṣaje: "That is first-class religion which teaches how to love God." And that love*-not for any material motive: "God, You give me this. Then I will love." No. Ahaitukī. Love means without any personal profit. If I love God for some profit that is business. That is not love. Ahaituky apratihatā. And such love of God cannot be checked by any material cause. In any condition, one can learn how to love God. It is not conditional, that "I am poor man. How shall I love God? I have got so many things to do." No, it is not like that. Poor, rich or young or old, black or white, there is no impediment. If one wants to love God, he can love God. Sandy Nixon: Are there different paths that one can learn to love God? Prabhupāda: No. There is no different. Sandy Nixon: I mean, are there other spiritual paths... Do all spiritual paths lead to the same end? *Prabhupāda: Spiritual paths are divided into four. Not spiritual. Real spiritual, mixed spiritual. Just like this, "God, give us our daily bread." It is mixed spiritual. One has approached God, God is spiritual, but one is asking for material profit. So this is mixture, matter and spirit. So there are four classes generally known as karmī, fruitive actors, they work for getting some material profit. They are called karmī. Just like all men, you will see, they are working so hard day and night, driving their cars, (makes noise of cars) this way and that way. The purpose is how to get some money. This is called karmī. And then jñānī. Jñānī means he knows that "I am working so hard. Why? The birds, beasts, the elephants, big, big..., eight million different types of..., they are not. They have no business. They have no profession. How they are eating? So why unnecessarily I work so much? Let me know what is the problem of life." So they understand the problem of life is birth, death, old age and disease. And they want to solve it, how to become immortal. So they have conclusion that "If I merge into God's existence, then I become immortal or immune from birth, death, old age and disease." This is called jñānī. And some of them are yogis. They try to acquire some spiritual power to make a show how he can play wonder. A yogi can become very small. If you put him in a room, he will come out. You lock it. He will come out. If there is little space, he will come out. That is called anima. He can fly in the sky, float in the sky. That is called laghima. In this way, if somebody can show this magic, then immediately he is accepted as very wonderful man. So yogis, they... The modern yogis, they simply show some gymnastic, but they have no power. So I am not speaking of these third*-class yogis. Real yogi means he has got some power. That is material power. So yogis also want this power. And jñānīs also want salvation from the unnecessary working like ass, the karmī. And karmīs want material profit. So they want, everyone. But the bhaktas, devotees, they don't want anything. They want to serve God out of love. Just like a mother loves her child. There is no question of profit. Out of affection, she loves. So when you come to that stage, to love God, that is perfection. So these different processes, karmī, jñānī, yogi and bhakta, out of these four processes, if you want to know God, then you have to accept this bhakti. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. "Simply through the process of bhakti, one can understand Me, God." He never says by other processes, no. Only through bhakti. So if you are interested to know God and love Him, then you have to accept this devotional process. No other process will help you. Sandy Nixon: What are the methods used in attaining Kṛṣṇa consciousness? How does one get to... Prabhupāda: Yes, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness you achieve the goal of life. In the present condition we are accepting one body, and we are dying after a few days. Then accept another body. And that body is according to your activity. There are 8,400,000 different types of body. You can get any one of them. You'll have to accept one body. That is called transmigration of the soul. So if one is under this consciousness that "I am eternal. Why I am changing body? How to solve it?" that is intelligence. And not to work like cats and dogs and die, that is not intelligence. One who makes solution of this problem, he is intelligent. So therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the ultimate solution of all problems of life. Sandy Nixon: What transformations does one undergo on the path of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: No transformation. The consciousness is there. It is now filled with all rubbish things. You have to cleanse this, and then Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Just like water. Water is, by nature, clear, transparent. But when it is filled up with rubbish things, it is muddy. You cannot see very clearly. But if you filter it, all muddy things, dirty things, then again comes to the original position, clear, transparent water. Sandy Nixon: Does one function better in society as a result of affiliation with Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: What is the meaning? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Is he a better citizen? Sandy Nixon: And also sociologically or cultu... Can he work better in the community? *Prabhupāda: That you can see practically. They are not drunkards, they are not meat-eaters. From physiological point of view, they are very clean. They will never be attacked with so many diseases. Then they do not eat meat, means that is the most sinful, to kill others for the satisfaction of the tongue. God has given to the human society so many things to eat: nice fruits, nice flowers, nice grains, first-class milk. And from milk, you can prepare hundreds of nutritious foods. But they do not know the art. They are maintaining big, big slaughterhouse and eating meat. No discrimination. That means they are not even civilized. When man is not civilized, he kills one animal and eats because he does not know how to grow food. Just like we have got one farm land, in New Vrindaban. So we are preparing so first-class preparation from milk, the neighbours they come, they are astonished that from milk such nice preparation can be done, hundreds. So that means they are not even civilized, how to prepare nutritious food from milk. Milk-accepting that cow flesh and blood is very nutritious, that we also admit-but a civilized man utilizes the blood and meat in a different way. The milk is nothing but blood. But it is transformed into milk. And again, from milk you make so many things. You make yogurt, you make curd, you make ghee, so many things. And combination of these milk products with grains, with fruits and vegetables, you make similar hundreds of preparation. So this is civilized life, not that directly kill one animal and eat. That is uncivilized life. You take the-accepting that cow's flesh and blood is very nutritious*-you take it in a civilized way. Why you should kill? It is innocent animal. Is simply eating grass given by God and supplying milk. And from milk you can live. And the gratefulness is that cut his throat? Is that civilization? What do you say? Jayatīrtha: Is that civilization? Sandy Nixon: No, I agree a hundred percent. I want you to say these things, though, instead of me. I'm asking you questions so that hopefully that not by me describing anything... Prabhupāda: So these things are uncivilized way of life, and what they will understand God? That is not possible. Sandy Nixon: I'm asking these questions for others, of course, a field(?) that is not understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Prabhupāda: To understand God means one must be first*-class civilized man. Just like university is meant for first-class student, similarly, God consciousness means meant for the first-class human being. Sandy Nixon: O.K. This question's a hard one for me to ask because it shows ignorance on my part. But I'm not asking it in ignorance. I want your answer on tape, O.K.? Does all desire ultimately have to go, including the desire to attain Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will have simply rubbish desires. And when you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you desire rightly. Sandy Nixon: The aim of many spiritual paths is to find the guru within. Prabhupāda: Within? Sandy Nixon: The guru within. Is this different...? Prabhupāda: Who says that, to find guru within? Sandy Nixon: Um... Jayatīrtha: Kirpal Singh, he's one person who says that. Guru dāsa: Krishnamurti says that also. Prabhupāda: So why does he come to teach? (laughter) This rascal, why does he come to teach? This is the answer. These things are spoken by rascals. He has come to teach, and he says, "Find out guru within." Then why you have come to teach? Because people are not intelligent, they cannot catch him. He talks all nonsense, and they hear, that's all. Guru dāsa: He also has written a book about "No books are needed." (laughter) Prabhupāda: So you can find out how rascal he is. Is it not? Do you admit or not? He writes book, and he says, "There is no need of books." He has come to teach, and he says, "There is no need of teacher. Teacher is within." Is he not a rascal? Sandy Nixon: Well, they say... Those people... Prabhupāda: No, first of all you answer my question. If he says contradictory things, is he not a rascal? Sandy Nixon: Well, he's contradicting himself. Prabhupāda: Therefore he is a rascal. He does not know how to defend him. Sandy Nixon: Can the *Vedas* be taken symbolically as well as literally? *Prabhupāda: As it is. We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, not symbolically. Sandy Nixon: Are you attempting to revive... I feel like asking this question two different ways. First I'll ask it one way which is, in a sense, incorrect. Maybe I'll just ask it this way and just get your answer. Are you attempting to revive in the West the awareness... Are you attempting to revive the ancient Indian caste system in the West? Prabhupāda: Where do you find we are reviving caste system? Where do you find? First of all let me know. Why you are asking this question? If you have seen that we are trying to introduce the Indian caste system, then you say. But if there is no such attempt, why you are asking this question? Sandy Nixon: Well, because a lot of people are interested, and... Prabhupāda: No, no, lot of people, you are also one of them. So where do you find that we are trying to introduce caste system? First of all find out where is the attempt. Then you ask question. Otherwise it is irrelevant question. Sandy Nixon: The *Gītā* mentions the caste system. Prabhupāda: *Gītā*, what mentions, do you know? Sandy Nixon: The four castes and an untouchable caste. Prabhupāda: What is that? On the basis of what? Sandy Nixon: I can't locate it directly. But the Brahma... *Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda. Who has said that this is caste system? This is not caste system. Cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. According to quality and according to work, there are four divisions of men. Just like you can understand there are engineers and there are medical practitioners. So do you take them as caste? "Oh, he is engineer caste. He is medical caste." Do you say like that? Sandy Nixon: I don't want to say what I feel because I'm recording you. (laughs) Prabhupāda: I'm asking you, I'm asking you... Sandy Nixon: Well, I think there's always been castes. It's just that we don't recognize the fact that they're there. *Prabhupāda: No, recognize means if a man is qualified medical man we accept him as medical man. And if a man is qualified engineer, we accept him as engineer. Similarly, Bhagavad-gītā suggests*-not suggest, it is there-there are four classes of men, the most intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men and ordinary worker. That is already there. Bhagavad-gītā says how they should be classified, that "He belongs to this class, he belongs to that class." That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, not that by birth, hereditarily, one becomes a caste. You don't try to misunderstand. The classification is already there: one class of men, very intelligent. Is he not there in the human society? Do you think all men are equally intelligent? Do you think? There must be one class, very highly intelligent class. So what are the symptoms of the intelligent class? That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. The first-class intelligent man... [break] ...you find all these qualities, he is first-class man. So we are trying to introduce that, that without first-class man, the society is useless. So there are first-class men. You train up. Just like a boy is intelligent; *still, he requires training in the school, college. Then he maintains his first*-class brain, first-class position. So there is first-class man. Now we have to train them properly how to become controller of the mind, how to become controller of the senses, how to become truthful, how to become cleansed internally, externally, how to become full of knowledge, how to try to apply the knowledge in practical life, how to become God conscious. This training is... A first-class man can take up, just like they are taking, all these boys. They had their first-class brain, and now they are being trained up. That is required, trained up first-class men. That training is required. So we are not introducing caste system, that any rascal born in a brāhmaṇa family, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. We don't accept that. A man who is first-class trained up to become a brāhmaṇa, we accept him. It doesn't matter whether he is India or Europe or America. It doesn't matter. We are trying to introduce this system. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. Caste system means a man is born in a brāhmaṇa family, and if by habit he is fifth-class man, and he is accepted first-class man on account of birth. Similarly, a person, very intelligent, he can be adaptable to all first-class habit, but because he is born in a śūdra family, he is śūdra. We want to stop this nonsense. We are picking up first-class brain and training up how to become first-class men. This is our business, not that introducing this rubbish thing. No, we are not introducing. Otherwise how I am offering them sacred thread? Now just see. Anyone from India, he will understand he is a first-class brāhmaṇa. We are training like that. Sandy Nixon: Here's another one kind of on that line. How do you feel about women's lib? Jayatīrtha: She wants to know about the women's liberation. What is our feeling about women's liberation. Prabhupāda: That I don't want to discuss because... (laughs) (laughter) They... As you have asked, I may explain that how foolish women are being cheated by the intelligent man. You see. Woman Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda is liberating everybody who chants Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: They have given. In your country, they have given you liberty. Liberty means equal rights, is it not? Man and woman has got equal rights. Sandy Nixon: They're trying in this country. *Prabhupāda: All right, trying. But you women, you cannot see that this so*-called equal right means cheating the woman. Now I say more clearly that a woman and man meets. Now they become lover. Then they have sex, and the woman becomes pregnant, and the man goes away. The simple woman, she has to take charge of the child and beg from government alms, "Please give me money." This is your independence. Do you admit this is independence, that the man makes the woman pregnant and he goes away without any responsibility, and the woman cannot give up the child, she maintains, begging from the government or she tries to kill the child? Do you think it is very good independence? What is your answer? Woman: To... Whether or not it is good to kill a child? Is that the question? Prabhupāda: Yes, they are killing now, abortion. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: He wants to know that kind of independence. Woman: For the child? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: For the woman. Prabhupāda: For the woman. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: This is liberation. She has an affair with a man, and she gets pregnant. The man leaves. Then she has to beg alms from the government to support the child... Prabhupāda: Or kill. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Or she kills the child. So is that good or bad? Woman: Well, she has made the choice to have... Prabhupāda: That means, that is 34 ounce. You have made your choice to kill your own child. Is that very good choice? Sandy Nixon: It's the worst crime you could commit. Jayatīrtha: Her brain is getting larger. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Do you think it is very good business? Woman: I think this is a very complicated question. Prabhupāda: Therefore I say they are cheating you in the name of independence. That you do not understand. Therefore 34 ounce. They are cheating you, and you are thinking you are independent. Sandy Nixon: They forget the responsibility that comes with freedom. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they do not take the responsibility. They go away. They enjoy and go away. And the woman has to take the responsibility, either kill the child or maintainer, begging. Do you think begging is very good? In India, although they are poverty*-stricken, still, they do not remain independent. They remain under the husband, and the husband takes all responsibility. So she has neither to kill the child nor go to beg for maintaining the child. So which is independence? to remain under husband is independence or to become free to be enjoyed by everyone? Sandy Nixon: That's not where the freedom is anyway. Prabhupāda: So there is no freedom; still, they think that they have freedom. That means under some plea, the men are cheating the women, that's all. So in the name of independence, they have agreed to be cheated by another class. This is the situation. Sandy Nixon: In spite of that, can women know Kṛṣṇa as... Prabhupāda: We have no such distinction. Sandy Nixon: No distinction... Prabhupāda: We give Kṛṣṇa consciousness both to the woman and man equally. We do not make any such distinction. But to protect them from this exploitation by man, we teach something, that "You do like this. You do like that. You be married. Be settled up. Don't wander independently." We teach them like that. But so far Kṛṣṇa consciousness is concerned, we equally distribute. There is no such thing that "Oh, you are woman, less intelligent or more intelligent. Therefore you cannot come." We don't say that. We welcome women, men, poor, rich, everyone, because in that platform equality. Sandy Nixon: How do you deal with negativity? In the outside world do... The devotees encounter negativity every day, people that are not interested. How, not just on the outside world, but how does one deal with that within, how does one relieve oneself of that negativism? Prabhupāda: Negativity means... Just like we say, "No illicit sex." We say, we teach our students, "No illicit sex." Do you think it is negative? What does she mean by...? Jayatīrtha: The situation is that other people think that it's negative, and therefore they feel negatively towards us. So how should we react to that? Sandy Nixon: Well, how to do, you deal with it within yourself? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: What do you mean negativity within yourself? Sandy Nixon: No, no, not just criticism but if you get a lot of people that are working against you all the time... Here you're surrounded by people that are positive and that are reinforcing. But when you get yourself in the outside world in a position where there are people that are draining you and taking your energy, how do you replenish that energy? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: How do we stay fixed when there are so many people against us? Prabhupāda: So nobody is against you? Do you think nobody is against you? I am asking you. Sandy Nixon: Do I think nobody is against me? Oh, sure, there's people for me, against me, that don't care about me. Prabhupāda: So there are against and for. Why do you bother about the against? As there are some people against us, there are many people for us. So that is the position in every field of activity. So if somebody is against us, why should we bother about it. We are selling books daily, a huge amount. So there is no question of against us. Anyone who is even against us, he is persuaded to purchase one book. So how he is against us? He is purchasing our book. What is the daily amount of sales, our books? *Jayatīrtha: We sell about twenty*-five thousand books and magazines a day. Prabhupāda: What is the price? Jayatīrtha: The collection would probably be around 35 to forty thousand dollars a day. Prabhupāda: We are collecting forty thousand dollars a day by selling books. How I can say they are against us? Sandy Nixon: You're very positive. I like that. Prabhupāda: Where is the any other institution who can sell forty thousand dollars a day? So how do you say that they are against us? Sandy Nixon: My last question. Could you tell me about the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra because it's so important to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And I'd like to have... Prabhupāda: It is very simple. Hare means "O the energy of Lord," and Kṛṣṇa means "O Lord. Both of You kindly engage me in Your service." That's all. "Both of You, Kṛṣṇa and His energy..." Just like here we have got conception of male and female, similarly, originally, God and His energy, God is male and energy female, prakṛti and puruṣa. This idea of male and female, wherefrom it comes? God is manufacturing so many male and female. So the male and female idea, wherefrom it comes? It comes from God. He is the origin of everything. So the female, or prakṛti, or energy of God, and God Himself... He is called puruṣa. So we are appealing both God and His energy, combined together, engage us in Their service. This is Hare Kṛṣṇa. O Hare means "O the energy of God," O Kṛṣṇa, "O Lord, both of You take care of me and engage me in Your service." That's all. This is meaning. Sandy Nixon: O.K., thank you. And I lost some on the way, I guess. When I moved into the house, there were these... just came out of the earth and it was so beautiful to see them. Prabhupāda: So your questions also is answered? Anne Jackson: May I ask you a few questions? Could you please tell me a little bit about your life and how you knew that you were the spiritual master for the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Prabhupāda: My life is simple. I was householder. I have still my wife, my children, my grandsons. So my Guru Mahārāja ordered me that "Go and preach this cult in the western countries." So I left everything on the order of my Guru Mahārāja, and I am trying to execute the order. That's all. Woman: And is this picture here the man...? Prabhupāda: Yes, he is my Guru Mahārāja. Woman: And he is no longer living. Prabhupāda: No. Woman: He spoke to you spiritually? Prabhupāda: So this is my (indistinct). That's all. Woman: At what point was it that he told you to do this? It was very late in your life that you...? *Prabhupāda: Yes. When I was twenty*-five years old I met him first. On the first meeting he ordered me to this. So at that time I was married man. I had two children. So I thought, "I shall do it later on." But I was trying to get out of family life. It took some time. But I was trying my best to carry out his order. In 1944 I started magazine, Back to Godhead, when I was gṛhastha. Then I started writing books in 1958 or '59. In this way in 1965 I came to your country. Woman: You have said that you are very small and that you are not God, and yet it appears to me as an outsider that the devotees treat you as if you were God. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is devotee's duty. Just like a government officer. Personally he is not very important, but so long he executes government order, he should be respected as government. That is the way. Even a ordinary policeman comes, you have to respect him because he is government man. But that does not mean he is government. He is respected. Sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. If that man thinks that "I have become government. People are respecting me," then he is foolish. So... But it is the etiquette. If the government man comes, you should respect him as government. Woman: Along the same idea, I wonder also about the many beautiful material things that the devotees bring to you, and, for instance, when you left the airport, you left in a beautiful, big, fancy car, and I wonder about this because... Prabhupāda: That is teaching them how to respect. If you respect government man as government, then you must treat him like that. Woman: But... Prabhupāda: If you respect spiritual master as God, then you must offer him the facilities of God. Otherwise how you treat him as God? Simply in mind? In action also. Woman: I'm sorry. What was the last you said? Prabhupāda: If the spiritual master is treated as God, so he must show, practically show, that he is treating as God. So God travels by golden car. So if the spiritual master is offered ordinary motor car, so still it is not sufficient, because he has to be treated like God. What is this motor car for God? (laughter) They are still deficient. If God comes to your home, will you bring Him in ordinary motor car or you would arrange for a golden car? If you treat him as God? So your point is that they offer me nice motor car, but I say that is not sufficient. That is still lacking to treat him as God. Be practical. Woman: Yesterday I met a devotee from New York who said that there were many people present at the festival from other planets and that you could see them. Is that true? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Everyone can see. If you have eyes, you can see also. But if you have no eyes, therefore you are envious because they have offered a nice motor car. So you have to make your eyes to see. A blind man cannot see. The eyes are to be treated how to see. Woman: Is this true also with your other senses? Prabhupāda: Every senses. If you want to see something, you must be trained up how to see. Like a scientist is seeing something through the microscope, and you want to see with naked eyes. How it is possible to see? You must adopt the process to see. Then you can see everything. Woman: I have just one more question, and that is also from an outsider's point of view. It appears to me that one of the most difficult aspects of Kṛṣṇa consciousness for someone to accept who's been brought up outside of that point of view is the Deities and the idea that they represent Kṛṣṇa. Could you talk a little bit about that? Prabhupāda: Yes. At the present moment, because you are not trained up to see Kṛṣṇa, so Kṛṣṇa kindly appears before you as you can see. You can see wood, stone. You cannot see what is spirit. Even you don't see yourself. You are thinking, "I am this body." But you are spirit soul. You are seeing your father and mother daily, and when the father or mother dies, you cry. Why you are crying? "Now my father has gone." Where is your father gone? He is lying here. Why do you say he is gone? What is that thing which is gone? Why you say, "My father is gone," although lying on the bed? You have seen daily your father. Now you say, "My father is gone." So... But he is lying on the bed. So who has gone? What is your answer? Woman: Where is God? Jayatīrtha: Who has gone? If you see your dead father and you say that he is passed away, what has passed away? Prabhupāda: Who is that father? Woman: Only this material body is gone. Prabhupāda: Material body is there, lying on the bed. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: His body is there. And you say, "My father is gone." So what is gone? Woman: Well, his spirit is still... Prabhupāda: But have you seen that spirit? Woman: No. Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot see the spirit, and God is Supreme Spirit. Therefore, to show kindness upon you, He has appeared just like wood and stone so that you can see. Woman: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: He is everything. He is spirit and matter, everything. But you cannot see Him as spiritual identity. Therefore He has appeared in material form so that you can see. This is Deity. He is God, but you cannot see Him in His original spiritual form at the present moment. Therefore, out of His unbounded mercy, He has appeared before you just like made of wood and stone so that you can see. Woman: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you are coming daily in our meeting? Sandy Nixon: Not daily, but I'll come. Prabhupāda: That's nice. This gentleman...? Devotee: This is my father. Father: Your Grace... Prabhupāda: Oh. Thank you very much. (chuckles) Devotee: And my mother. Mother: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Oh. So you are all fortunate. You have got such a nice son. Father: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Yes. And he is giving you the best service by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. Don't think that he is out of home, he is lost, no. He is giving you the best service. Father: Well, we're very pleased with him and we always have been. Thank you for helping him find happiness. It's something which he was able to find through your order. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Thank you. They are very good boys. Father: What's amazing to me is where you get the strength to keep the pace that you have. Can you tell me how you do that? (laughter) I am some years your junior, and I have difficult pace, keeping up. Prabhupāda: The process is genuine, the process which I recommend and they follow. Then it is sure. Devotee: Yes. He's saying that our lifestyle will enable you to have that strength also, by worshiping God. Prabhupāda: Just like the physician. He gives you medicine, and he give you the process, the dose, how to take the medicine, how to take diet. If the patient follow, then he is cured. [break] ...the opportunity, human life. This process of God realization can be accepted by human being. It doesn't matter where he is born. Either in India or outside India, it doesn't matter. Any human being can take it up. That is the difference between the animal life and human life. The animal, the dog, he knows how to bark only, that's all. He cannot be taught about this process. But a human being can be. He has got that intelligence, every human being. So in this human form of life, if we do not take this process, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then we will remain dogs. Because we are abusing the opportunity. Father: What is it that Kṛṣṇa consciousness has that offers people so much more than other religions do? *Prabhupāda: This is religion. I have already explained that religion means to become lover of God. That is religion. When there is no love of God, that is not religion. Religion means-I have already explained*-to know God and to love Him. So if you do not know what is God, where is the question of loving Him? So that is not religion. It is going on in the name of religion. But religion means to know God and to love Him. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇitām [SB 6.3.19]. Can you find out this verse? Give him. You don't find? Nitai: Yes, 3.19. Prabhupāda: Third Chapter, nineteen verse. Nitai: *Prabhupāda: Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇitām: "The principles of religion is given by God." Just like the law. Law means the process of activities which is given by the government. You cannot make law at home. Is it clear? Father: No, I'm having a language problem, I'm afraid. Jayatīrtha: He says that law means that which is given by the government. You can't make your own law at home. So similarly, religion means that which is enunciated by the Lord. You can't make up your own process. Father: Well, I guess I'm missing the point. My question was what does the Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness have to offer that other religions don't have to offer as far as... Prabhupāda: This is offering that you want to be religious, so you try to understand religious principles from God. Because if one is lawyer, if one wants to become a lawyer, he must learn laws which is given by the government. He cannot become a lawyer at home. Similarly, if you want to become religious, you must learn what is religion from God. You don't manufacture your own religion. That is not religion. This is the first principle. But if I do not know what is God, what is the order given by God, then what is religion? That is going on. Everyone is manufacturing his own religion. This is the modern method, that religion is private. Anyone can accept any type of religion. That is liberalism, is it not? Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just convince him. Jayatīrtha: So do you understand? The idea is that this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is based on authority of the *Vedas*. And the Vedic literatures are coming directly from Kṛṣṇa. So we only accept it as truth what Kṛṣṇa says and we don't accept anybody's mental concoctions or speculations as being truth. And this is the problem with so many other religious movements today, that they depend on the interpretation or the... Prabhupāda: Concoction. Jayatīrtha: ...philosophy of some ordinary man. So this is the primary differential. *Prabhupāda: We don't say anything which is not spoken by God in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Therefore it is appealing everywhere. Although it is in Sanskrit language, still, it is appealing. Just like if you go on the street and the signboard is, "Keep to the right," this is law. I cannot say, "What is the wrong if I keep to the left?" Then I am criminal. You cannot dictate. The government has said, "Keep to the right." You have to do that, that is law. If you violate, then you are criminal. Pay fine. But ordinarily, one may think, "What is the wrong there, instead of keeping right, if I keep to the left?" He may think like that, but he doesn't know that is criminal. *Father: Yes. In the Bhagavad*-gītā, I'm told that there are some two hundred versions of that. Is that the case? Prabhupāda: Two hundred verses? Jayatīrtha: Two hundred versions, different interpretations, commentaries, translations... Father: But my question is that if that is the case... Prabhupāda: But how can you interpret...? That I have already explained. How can you interpret the government's order, "Keep to the left," and "Keep to the right"? You have no right to interpret. If you interpret, then you become a foolish man because that interpretation will not be accepted. If you say, "What is the wrong there? Both ways there are roads. So if I keep to the left, what is wrong there?" You can interpret like that. But as soon as you interpret like that, you become a criminal. So all these interpretation are unauthorized, criminal. That they do not know because they are foolish men. You cannot interpret. *Jayatīrtha: That's why our Bhagavad*-gītā is called Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Prabhupāda: Ah. No interpretation. *Jayatīrtha: Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, "Become My devotee." And He tells Arjuna that "I am speaking this to you because you are My devotee and because you are My friend. Therefore you can understand." So the point is that if Kṛṣṇa says that you have to be a devotee and a friend of Kṛṣṇa to understand what He's saying, then that's the case. So because Śrīla Prabhupāda is the devotee of Kṛṣṇa and a friend of Kṛṣṇa, therefore he can give it to us as it is, whereas most other interpretations are written by scholars, by politicians, by poets... Father: I wasn't aware of that difference. *Jayatīrtha: ...so many other persons who are not devotees of Kṛṣṇa and who are not friends of Kṛṣṇa, and therefore, what do they know about Bhagavad*-gītā? Just like the court can only define what is actual accordance to the law and what isn't, so similarly, there has to be an authorized person. Prabhupāda: Suppose you have written some letter to somebody, and he cannot understand. So if he consults somebody, that "What he has written?" Then that man must be your confidential person, who can understand your language. Even if I cannot understand what you have written, then I have to consult a person who understands you. But I cannot give my independent interpretation. That is not good. That is foolishness. But that is going on. They are thinking, "I am a big scholar. I can give my own interpretation." That is wrong. Father: That's the reason for a lot of confusion. Jayatīrtha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They must create confusion because he is a foolish man. He is interpreting on the words of God. He is not a devotee. He has got other purposes as a politician or something else. So he wants to push on his views through Bhagavad*-gītā. That is a cheating process. If he wants to speak something, he can write separate book. Why he should go through Bhagavad-gītā? That is cheating. But he knows, "Bhagavad-gītā is very popular book. If I push my philosophy through Bhagavad-gītā, it will be very easily accepted." That is going on. That is cheating. Why should you interpret? Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mād-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. And the scholar says, "No, no, it is not to Kṛṣṇa." Just see. Kṛṣṇa says that "You become My devotee." And the scholar says, "No, no, it is not necessary to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa person." This is going on, big scholar. Father: Thank you very much, Your Grace. If I ask these questions, I'll take all your time. Sandy Nixon: If you... May I ask one question more? I would like you to tell us that I can put in our article here if you have one sentence, one paragraph, that you would like to say to the world, (laughter) what would you say? Jayatīrtha: She wants to put a message to the world. Sandy Nixon: In capsule. Prabhupāda: So? What I have to do? (laughter) Jayatīrtha: I think she wants you to say, "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and your life will become sublime." Prabhupāda: Yes. That I am saying always. Without any price. I don't charge, "You give me so many dollars. Then I shall give you." Jayatīrtha: So do any of the other guests have any questions? Guest: I would like to ask, Swami, would you pray for me? Jayatīrtha: He wants you to pray for him. Prabhupāda: I am praying for everyone. That is my business. Otherwise why I have come here? Jayatīrtha: Are there any other questions from anybody, guest or devotee? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how does one become humble and remain humble? Jayatīrtha: How to become humble and remain humble. Same question one devotee asked you in Chicago. Prabhupāda: So you explain. Jayatīrtha: He said you can become humble by becoming aggressive for Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) One girl was asking that "When we are doing saṅkīrtana, I must be very aggressive, but when I come to the temple, then I'm supposed to be very humble." Prabhupāda's answer was... Prabhupāda: "A lamb at home, a lion in the chase." (laughter) When you are chasing, you must be a lion. (laughter) But when you come home, you do not try to chase the devotees. (laughter) Guest: Swami, what about those who practice one of the other religions in...? Prabhupāda: There is no other religion. I have repeatedly said. Religion is to abide by the orders of God. Nobody knows what is God, and nobody knows what is the order of God. Or even if one knows, he does not carry it. So how there can be religion? If you abide by the state laws, then you are lawful, but if you do not abide by the state laws, how you can become lawful? If you violate the laws, how you can become lawful? If you follow religion, then you must follow strictly the religious principles. And if you have no business to follow the religious principles, how you can become religious? Is it possible? Guest: I understand what you're saying. You're saying you cannot do practices and commit sin, right? Prabhupāda: Yes. There are, in every religion, there are principles. If you don't follow them, then how you become religious? Therefore this is my question. So nobody is following religious principles at the present moment. Therefore practically there is no religion. Everything is finished. We are trying to revive. If you follow religious principle, then it doesn't matter whether you are Christian or Mohammedan or Hindu or Buddha. Then you are religious. But if you do not follow any religious principle, then how you become religious? Father: Does that mean to say that you can't live a happy life without being religious? Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. Father: I am eons away from this whole thing because I don't believe any religion. My son knows this. Prabhupāda: You do not follow any religion? Father: None at all. I will give philosophical discussions... Prabhupāda: And still you are happy? Father: Yes, I'm very happy. I have my moments when I'm not, of course. Basically I'm happy with my family, with my work... Prabhupāda: Do you think your father is happy? Devotee: No. (laughter) Father: I don't feel very happy. (laughter) But... Devotee: Prabhupāda, earlier today you were speaking in *Bhāgavatam* class about Ajamila and how by circumstances he fell down, and that because it wasn't intentional, Kṛṣṇa forgave him. So, but still, at one point or another, he agreed to the desires of the prostitute. So isn't that free will? Prabhupāda: That is free will, but under the point of revolver. So māyā is very strong. māyā is very strong. So when you are under the māyā's clutches, she dictates and you have to do. This is called māyā, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā dura... [Bg. 7.14], very, very strong. So mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taran... If one is staunchly Kṛṣṇa conscious, he can avoid. Otherwise not possible. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: But if someone purposefully sins, also that is māyā. Prabhupāda: That may not be māyā. That is my discretion. But that is also māyā in another way, indirect way. So one must be strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then he is not a victim of māyā. *Devotee: Prabhupāda, on the news it's talking about the hook*-up of the Soviets and Americans, in their (?) capsules. And a large hook-up of these space ships in outer space for planning their moon project. And we were wondering what your feelings are and your views are on all of this. Prabhupāda: What is he wondering? You are making plans to go to back to home, back to Godhead, and if they go to the moon planet, so your plan is bigger or his plan is bigger? (laughter) Whose plan is bigger? Devotee: Our plan is much bigger. Prabhupāda: This is... Woman: As a mother, I do wish to thank you. My daughter found Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Oh, who is your son? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Daughter. Prabhupāda: Where is? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: She is being recommended for initiation tomorrow. She's not in the room. Is Adelle here? She's busy. Woman: She is busy. I'm very happy. Prabhupāda: So we recommend everyone, every American, being initiated. That is our recommendation. The sooner you accept this proposal, it is good for you. To know God and to love Him, is there any difficulty? Do you think nobody is interested in this? If one is not interested to know God, then he is a dog. The dog is not interested. That is the difference between human being and dog. The dog cannot be interested. But a human being has... I am a foreigner. I came alone. But these boys became interested. Why not others? Where is the difference? Your son is interested. Why the father is not interested? Why? What is the reason? Mother: He says Paul is interested and you're not. What is the reason? (laughter) Prabhupāda: He has already explained. What is that? Your father admitted just now? He said? Devotee: That he is not happy? Prabhupāda: No, another thing. Devotee: He said he was a person... (laughter) Father: According to the rules, I gotta be interested. Sandy Nixon: As least you're laughing at yourself, right? Father: Yeah, right. Prabhupāda: (laughing) But your mother is very good. Yes, son inherits the quality of mother. And the daughter inherits the quality of father. Yes. So if the mother is good, naturally the son is good. That is Vedic calculation. Woman: I'm sorry you said that. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) This is all physiological. And we have seen, studied, that any big man of the world, behind that big man is either a strong mother or a strong wife. That is the general statistics. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, mātā yasya gṛhe nāsti bharyā cāpriya*-vādinī. If there is no mother at home and the wife is not very suitable, does not speak very nicely with husband, disrespectful, then he is recommended to leave home and go to the forest. Araṇyam tena gantavyaṁ yathāraṇyam tathā gṛham. Such person should immediately leave home and live in the forest because for him the forest and home is the same. Mātā yasya gṛhe nāsti bharyā cāpriya-vādinī. So women should be trained up to be very faithful and chaste. Then the life will be very happy. That is the only education for woman. And man should be educated how to become first-class man, a brāhmaṇa. Then the whole atmosphere will be very happy. The man, first-class man, brāhmaṇa, śamo damaḥ titikṣa, and woman, very faithful to such husband and chaste. Then the home is happy. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says another place, dampatyoḥ kalaho nāsti tatra śrīḥ svayam āgataḥ. "If there is no fight and disagreement between husband and wife, in that home the goddess of fortune automatically comes." They haven't got to search out where is goddess of fortune. She will come automatically. So that is now lacking. In most cases the husband and wife does not agree. And the other day I was reading in a paper that one woman in two weeks or three weeks...? Jayatīrtha: In two weeks. *Prabhupāda: She has divorced two husbands. And when the press reporters asked her, she replied, "Yes, it was a mistake." And still, they want to be equal with man. She commits mistake twice in two week, and still she claims to be equal with man. So we have got our school, Dallas, we are teaching the small children to make the boys first*-class men, as it is enunciated in the Bhagavad-gītā, and woman to become very faithful and chaste. That's all. This is our education. Then it will be very happy home and people will live very peacefully, and then other things can be executed. If the home is not peaceful, always disturbed in mind, and one has to adopt twice in a week divorce, then how there can be peace? This is not freedom, this is disturbance. Freedom does not mean disturbance of peace. Freedom means that maintenance of peace. Sandy Nixon: I've got a good question. How can we get a God conscious leader in this country? Prabhupāda: You come and live with us. You'll get God. Just like so many boys... Sandy Nixon: As a president in this country. Prabhupāda: President? Jayatīrtha: How to get a God conscious leader? Sandy Nixon: God conscious president. *Prabhupāda: Yes, if you train people to become God conscious, then naturally president will come, God conscious. If you train people like hogs and dogs, then the president will be hogs and dogs because it is democracy. (laughter) Therefore we have taken the task to train people how to become godly. Then naturally the president will come godly. If people decide that "We shall not cast our vote to any man who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious," then the Kṛṣṇa conscious man will come. But people are not trained up. They are fools, so they elect another fool, big fool. That's all. How you can be happy? Just like in the forest the small animals like cats and dogs and asses, they are very much afraid of the lion, tiger. And they accept lion as the king of forest. But he may be lion or tiger and elected by asses and cats and dogs, but he is nothing but animal. Will any human being accept the lion as human being? No. He knows that he is an animal. Maybe he is voted by the small animals. So that is the position. At the present moment the mass of people are kept in their animal consciousness. And therefore they elect another big animal to become president. Their idea is to have animal strength, jaws and nails and very powerful-"Oh, he is God," or "He is president." They cannot select anyone else. But formerly, in the Vedic civilization, a king was elected by the first*-class men of the society, the saintly persons, the brāhmaṇas. They did not take part in politics, but they recommended that "This man should..." Just like Kṛṣṇa. He wanted Yudhiṣṭhira must be the king. Because king is supposed to be God's representative, how to rule over, not that these cats and dogs will find out a lion and vote him to the chair. That is not the process. Your modern process is that the electors, they are not trained up, and they elect another big animal to become the president. Therefore it is failure. All over the world this is going on. This so-called democracy... Unless people are very much trained up, the election by the mass is not very good. Rather, a first-class men, they should nominate that "This man should be president." That will be nice. Your question was "How to find out president, good"? So this is the process. So there is no intelligent class of man. That is the difficulty. Who is trying to control his mind, control his senses? This is the first condition to become a first-class man. As soon as a man sees a beautiful woman, immediately his mind is agitated. Where is the control? And as soon as the mind is agitated, the senses are agitated. And this is the first condition of the first-class man, that he should not be agitated in his mind, and agitated by senses. This is the first condition. So where is that school who is training to, how to control the mind, how to control the senses, how to become truthful, how to become cleansed, internally, externally. These are the signs of first-class men. So we are trying our little bit to make some men as first class. This is our teeny effort. We are not patronized by any interested person, neither by the government. By our own effort we are trying. So far big, big man, leaders, they are thinking, "This is all useless." And because they have taken these things are useless, now they are facing problems, "Crime. Why? What to do?" And it is said there... Find out this verse. Strīṣu duṣṭāsu vārṣṇeya. Not... Bhagavad-gītā, you do not know where is this. He has got it. Strīṣu duṣṭāsu. These are very serious question. If you want to study them seriously, everything, direction, is there. Nitai: Strīṣu duṣṭāsu... *Prabhupāda: Vārṣṇeya varṇa*-saṅkaraḥ abhibhavātaḥ. Nitai: First Chapter. Prabhupāda: And then? Next verse? Nitai: Prabhupāda: So this instruction is strīṣu duṣṭāsu: "When women become polluted, there is unwanted population." That is coming all over the world, the hippies. Therefore the first thing is how to train up women not to become polluted. This is the way of... In the modern society they have given women freedom. That I have already explained. In the name of freedom of woman, they are being exploited. Everything is there: social, religious, political, cultural, educational. We have to accept that course. Then everything will be all right. If you don't accept, then you have to suffer problems. It is not meant for a particular class of men or particular country, it is meant for the whole human society. Therefore, this purification of the society at the present, fallen condition is very, very difficult to revive. Because people are so fallen, it is almost impossible. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that "You all together chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be done nicely." Devotee: We're teaching in Kṛṣṇa consciousness how everything can become solved by developing love and devotion for God, Kṛṣṇa. So I... Prabhupāda: That is the ultimate goal. If you can learn how to love God, then you become perfect, and all other things automatically come. Devotee: Prabhupāda, because people are not being taught that, in this country there is a great disease of alcoholism. Prabhupāda: Not in this country, in every country. Why do you say this country or that country? Devotee: Well, I was saying about alcoholism in particular. Prabhupāda: No, that is also in India. That is not uncommon. At least, they are learning, by your grace. (laughter) By imitating the western countries, they are learning everything. Devotee: I was reading. There's a group called A.A., Alcoholic Anonymous, and they have a treatment for curing this disease. And it's the only one that's been successful. And one of the initial steps in achieving success in this method of theirs is that one agrees to the possibility of an ultimate reality or God. And because of that, they've had success in curing alcoholism. Prabhupāda: What is that process? *Devotee: Well, it's a self*-analysis. It doesn't go very far, but at least they accept that God exists and... *Prabhupāda: Self*-analysis, that requires intelligence. But our process is, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." There is no difficulty. So it is better than A.A. Devotee: Yes, much better. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So why should you bother about that process? You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Is that all right? Devotee: That's fine. (end) Room Conversation with Bernard Manischewitz -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia Prabhupāda: If you want to sit in chair, you can sit. Brahmānanda: Here, I'll get you a chair. Devotee: Prabhupāda can sit here. Bernard Manischewitz: Thank you very much. This is fine. This is fine. I have here a check for the life membership. Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. Bernard Manischewitz: I'll cash it. Brahmānanda: Mr. Manischewitz is becoming life member. Prabhupāda: Ohh. Thank you very much. So give him books. Brahmānanda: Yes. Bernard Manischewitz: This is fine, thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Now you can... I saw you before? Bernard Manischewitz: Twice before. Once in Chicago and once in New York. Prabhupāda: How are you now? Bernard Manischewitz: I'm fine, thank you. Prabhupāda: She's your daughter? *Bernard Manischewitz: My daughter. My son*-in-law. My sleeping grandson. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So make him active like you. Bernard Manischewitz: I have a question. May I ask? Is it sometimes possible that a person is reborn in the same body (indistinct, Prabhupāda coughs). Prabhupāda: Same body? What is that? Brahmānanda: Is a person reborn in the same body? Prabhupāda: Yes, you are reborn every moment. You were like this child sometime. Is this body the same? You think your body is the same when you were a child like that, lying down on the lap of you mother? Is the same body? Bernard Manischewitz: No, my body is different from a child's body. Prabhupāda: Yes. So different body means you are changing body every moment, imperceptibly. That is the medical science. Bernard Manischewitz: Can it sometimes be perceptibly? Can a person...? Prabhupāda: Perceptibly we can understand that the body is being changed so long you are within this body. Because if the person, the soul, is not in the body, the body does not change. Body changes so long the soul is there. And as soon as the soul goes out of the body, there is no more change. Is it not perceptible? Bernard Manischewitz: If the soul goes out of the body... Prabhupāda: There is no more change. It remains the same. Same status. Why? That means so long the soul is there, changes take place. Bernard Manischewitz: I see. Thank you very much. I understand. Prabhupāda: Yes, every intelligent man will understand this very simple thing, that so long as the body..., the soul is within the body, the body is changing. And as soon as this body... Just like you are old man, I am old man, the body is no more possible to be changed; *somehow or other then I'll have to accept another body. That is called transmigration. The modern so*-called scientists, philosophers, they do not understand this plain truth, and they are passing on as big scientists, big philosopher, misleading public. Devotee (2): This is for my wife. She's getting second initiation. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bernard Manischewitz: Thank you. Prabhupāda: So give him some prasāda. Brahmānanda: Yes. Bernard Manischewitz: Thank you, yes, I have. (gives Śrīla Prabhupāda gift of a fruit basket) Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. So many fruits. Pratyatoṣa: Yes, it's all fruits. Prabhupāda: Good father, good daughter. Bernard Manischewitz, Pratyatoṣa and Urmila: Thank you very much. Hare Krishna. Pratyatoṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can I ask you a question? My son likes pictures of Kṛṣṇa. Is it all right to give him pictures to play with, or is that too offensive? They could be covered with plastic or something? Prabhupāda: Not offensive, but it should not be disrespectful. That, he cannot do that. He has no sense now. So better just show him and keep it. Not have it. (devotees pay obeisances) (end) Conversation with Professor Hopkins -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia Prabhupāda: How are you? Prof. Hopkins: Fine thank you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. *Prof. Hopkins: I have several questions that I would like to raise. I have a long*-standing interest in the... Prabhupāda: You can sit down. *Prof. Hopkins: In Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. And this I know is very important to you and to the Caitanya tradition. Prabhupāda: You have seen all the parts published? Books and... Which Canto you have read? *Prof. Hopkins: I'm not thinking so much of the specific Cantos as the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam as a whole. Is that, for you, as you see it, more important than Bhagavad-gītā? *Prabhupāda: No, Bhagavad*-gītā is the preliminary study of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Prof. Hopkins: So you would see the two related to each other. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If one can understand Bhagavad*-gītā then he becomes a bona fide student of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Prof. Hopkins: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Because in the... You have read Bhagavad*-gītā? Prof. Hopkins: Oh yes, I have. *Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad*-gītā, last instruction is sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. [Bg. 18.66] "You give up all kinds of occupation and just surrender unto Me." If one can take it very seriously, understand, then he can enter into the study of Bhāgavatam. The Bhāgavatam begins from the point where Kṛṣṇa left Bhagavad-gītā. So he advised that "You surrender to Me," and Bhāgavata begins, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi [SB 1.1.1], "I am worshiping the Supreme Truth." And next verse is dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2], "All cheating type of religious system is rejected." So this is rather revolting. Kṛṣṇa says sarva dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], "Give up all kinds of religious system, just surrender to Me." And from that point Bhāgavata begins, "All cheating type of religious system is rejected." It is meant for the paramahaṁsa. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ. Those who are envious, for them is not Bhāgavata. So any materialistic person, he is envious. It is not meant for the materialistic person. Those who are spiritually advanced, one who has understood that "I am not this body, I am spirit soul, my direct connection is with God, therefore my only business is to serve God." One who has come to this conclusion, he is called paramahaṁsa. Haṁsa means swan. A swan, it has got a quality that if you give the swan to drink milk mixed with water, she will drink the milk and reject the water. She has got the capacity. So paramahaṁsa means one who has taken the essence of the existence, Absolute Truth, he is called paramahaṁsa. *Prof. Hopkins: So you would see the Bhagavad*-gītā then as accessible to a wide range of people, at an elementary level or beginning level, whereas Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam would be for more advanced, more advanced people. Prabhupāda: Not only advanced, completely advanced. Because so long one will be, stay on the material platform, he will be envious of others only, animal propensity, dog. Dog does not like another dog is coming. So unless one is spiritually realized, the dog mentality will remain there. It is said nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam, even amongst the topmost thinkers, if he does not refute other thinkers, he is not a good thinker. That enviousness. He will not be established a good thinker if he cannot... If a scientist, if he cannot refute the previous scientist, he is not a scientist. This is material world. Everyone is envious of the other. So Bhāgavata meant for who is no more envious. Simply loving. *Prof. Hopkins: Why, why is that more necessary for Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam than for Bhagavad-gītā? *Prabhupāda: More... Bhāgavatam, I told you, it is a counterpart. Just like when you have passed the school examination then next you admit yourself for degree or graduate degree. Similarly, Bhāgavata is the end of education. Everyone is progressing. When one comes to Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam and understands it then his education is complete. *Prof. Hopkins: Then would it be, would it be dangerous for someone who is not at that level to study Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam or would they simply not understand it? *Prabhupāda: Dangerous means if one is not completely educated of self*-realization he has the risk of degradation. Prof. Hopkins: He has what? *Prabhupāda: The risk of degradation. Now I have got human form of body, I may degrade to animal. Because transmigration of the soul. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, tathā dehāntara prāptir, after death one gets another body. Now, what kind of body, that depends on his work. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ [Bg. 14.18]. If he has done very nicely, in goodness, then he will be promoted to the higher planetary system. And if he has not done anything nice then he will remain here or he will be degraded to the lower planetary system. *Prof. Hopkins: That is... How does that relate to the question of studying the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam? *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam or Bhagavad-gītā, if one realizes properly then he gets promotion back to home, back to Godhead. He is no more a person to live in this material world. Material world means ups and down, ups and down. And spiritual world means steady life of knowledge and bliss. *Prof. Hopkins: But if one were to study, read Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam who was not ready for this, not prepared for it, this might throw them into confusion then, or this would be... Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Hopkins: Would it be bad for them or would they simply not learn from it. Prabhupāda: No, as I told you the... Our only business is to know the Absolute Truth. If you do not try for this then you remain animals. Animal cannot know the Absolute Truth. So to remain animal means varieties of life. Sometimes cat, sometimes dog, sometimes demigod, sometimes this, sometimes that, sometimes American, sometimes something else. This will go on. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. In this life we are living, we are making the next body. So if we work nicely then next body may be the higher planetary system or above this material world, in the spiritual world. Prof. Hopkins: And the way to progress then is to take, to study, to learn these things in order, in the proper order. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Prof. Hopkins: I remember when I first, when I first met Brahmānanda in New York. I came there initially in part to, because I had been studying Bhāgavatam and I wanted to talk to people in the temple about Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. And they said, "What is this?" (laughs) "We've heard Swamiji speak of this but we don't know it." A few years later you were all sitting around reciting verses from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Was this... You did not begin to teach Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam when you first came to the U.S. *Prabhupāda: No, I taught Bhagavad*-gītā first of all, then Bhāgavata. Prof. Hopkins: So you prepared, you prepared them with... Prabhupāda: Oh yes. *Prof. Hopkins: Bhagavad*-gītā and then Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: You have seen yesterday's procession? Prof. Hopkins: I didn't get to the one yesterday, no. Prabhupāda: So, unless we have prepared groundwork, it is not possible. Prof. Hopkins: A related question, which is a practical question also. I am collecting material for a kind of sourcebook, readings in Hinduism, contemporary as well as classical, and would like to include in these readings some of the things that you have written. Of the things that you have written what do you consider most important? Prabhupāda: Premā pumārtho mahān: The most important thing is how to love God. Prof. Hopkins: And where of the things that you have written would that come? Prabhupāda: Eh? Prof. Hopkins: Where in the... In the things that you've written, where would that message come through most clearly? Prabhupāda: In Vedānta philosophy, the most important philosophy. Brahmānanda: He's asking which one of your books? *Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Brahmānanda: Which of your books do you consider to be the most important? Prabhupāda: Well, beginning from the First Canto. *Brahmānanda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. It is step by step. First of all Bhagavad*-gītā study nicely so we can get the idea of Absolute Truth, and then by studying Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, you understand more and more, more and more, more and more. Prof. Hopkins: But is there, is there any one, one of the translations or one of the purports or of a series of purports of the things that you've published that you think is more clear, more... Prabhupāda: Every śloka we are describing word to word. So every śloka you will find new idea, new idea. There are 18,000 verses. *Prof. Hopkins: (laughs) I would react the same way if anyone asked me a question like that. But you've... In the beginning of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you did discuss the general story(?). Prabhupāda: Oh yes, you have not seen it? Prof. Hopkins: Yes, I've seen it. I'm just wondering what your judgment is on what... If you had to say to someone who was going to collect one small section of your work, what would you want them to collect? Prabhupāda: That is stated in few verses, you find out this. Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya [SB 1.2.9]. Brahmānanda: In the First Canto? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya nārtho 'rthāyopakalpate. The first thing is that people become religious. Just like in your Christian religion they go to the church to get some material profit. "Oh God, give us our daily bread." This is material profit. Similarly, Hindus or Muslims, they become religious, dharma artha kāma mokṣa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90], the material activities. Those who are actually advanced... Those who are not even human beings, their philosophy is different. Those who are human beings, their dharma, religion. Then artha, economic development, and then kāma, sense gratification, and then mokṣa, liberation. These four things are taken as general activities. So Bhāgavata says your dharma... Religious principle means the ultimate goal is how to become liberated, not artha. Artha means economic development. So then question may be if you do not, if we are not economically developed then how we shall live? The Bhāgavata says that you can make economic development as far as it maintains your body and soul together. Not that making whole life economic development and real purpose of life forget. This is foolishness. So dharma, artha. Dharma means, religious advancement means how to get out of this material condition. Not that I go to temple and chant, "God, give me millions of dollars, and this, and that." This is not possible. It is good that one has gone to God to ask some help, that much credit is there. You have found out the verse? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya. Read it. Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda: Purport. Prabhupāda: People are after material gain. They have no spiritual information even, what is spirit, what is the need of spiritual realization, they do not know. Therefore they have been described as mūḍhas: fools and rascals. Those who are after material way of... Prof. Hopkins: Do you... Do you think then that that, that message is the most important message that you have to convey? Prabhupāda: This is the most important message. Because you are not this material body. Suppose you have got this shirt. If you simply try to maintain this shirt, is that very good intelligence, without taking care of your person? Similarly, if we are spirit soul and the body is just like dress, so the whole material world is, everyone is engaged to take care of the body. Nobody knows what is spirit soul, what is this need. Nobody knows. All these educational institutions, they are blind. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās [SB 7.5.31]. And the whole system is also blind. If a blind man leads another blind man what is the benefit? No benefit. Therefore in your country, every country, it is a blind education. No spiritual enlightenment. Prof. Hopkins: What is the solution? What is the solution? Devotion to God... Prabhupāda: First of all you know what is spirit. Then as soon as you know that you are spirit then wherefrom the spirit comes, or wherefrom everything comes? Then it comes to the question of God. And then we understand what is our relationship with God. And then if we act according to that, then it is perfect life. Prof. Hopkins: So that you would... You would see the *Gītā* then as a guide to understanding. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Hopkins: It starts in Chapter Two with the question of what is ātmā? Prabhupāda: In Chapter Two it is said... Arjuna was lamenting that "I shall fight and the other party they are my brother, so I will be sinful. So many problems will come." He was thinking like that. So Kṛṣṇa first gave him lesson that "Why you are thinking on the bodily concept of life? You are not body. You are spirit soul." Then He gave spiritual education. *Prof. Hopkins: So you must start with what the Gītā calls sāṅkhya*-yoga then, but go on, and go on to bhakti-yoga. *Prabhupāda: Bhakti*-yoga is said last. Sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. People are not prepared to take the sublime lesson immediately. Then he has to go step by step. So that is the system of Bhagavad-gītā. Prof. Hopkins: Are there other ways besides Kṛṣṇa consciousness to reach that same goal? Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Hopkins: Or is that the only goal? *Prabhupāda: That is only. That is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā. Bhaktyā mām abhi... If you want to know God and your relationship with God then only through bhakti, no other. That is stated in the... Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. Otherwise you will never be able to understand. Prof. Hopkins: If the highest reality is Puruṣottama and Puruṣottama is manifested in many different ways in the world, can people come to Puruṣottama through various paths? Prabhupāda: Various path means bhakti is the only path. Now all other paths they must come to bhakti. Without bhakti there is no possibility. Prof. Hopkins: But must bhakti be directed to Kṛṣṇa only or... Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa is Bhagavān. Bhakti means our transaction with Bhagavān. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. So original Bhagavān is Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Hopkins: What about those who would worship Rāma, say? Prabhupāda: Rāma is Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Hopkins: Rāma is Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Another form of Kṛṣṇa. Rāmādi mūrtiṣu kalā*-niyamena tiṣṭhan [Bs. 5.39]. Prof. Hopkins: What about those who would worship Śiva? Prabhupāda: Śiva is just like milk and yogurt. The yogurt is milk but it is not milk. Prof. Hopkins: In another form then. So, ah... Prabhupāda: You will not derive the benefit of milk from yogurt. Prof. Hopkins: But do you get benefits? Prabhupāda: Benefit there must. Prof. Hopkins: Benefits there are but not the same. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Śiva means you get material opulence but not salvation. Prof. Hopkins: So you would see Śiva as more related to material. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Prof. Hopkins: There is a passage in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, I forget where, where Viṣṇu is asked "Why is it that the followers of the ascetic Śiva are all wealthy and prosperous people and the followers of You who are the Lord of the universe are all poor?" Is that the way you would see it then, that those that follow Śiva are after more material gain? Prabhupāda: More material gain means you become more implicated. Prof. Hopkins: More what? Prabhupāda: Implicated. Our problem is birth and death, old age and disease. [break] ...this birth, death, old age and disease. For them, liberation, the ultimate liberation is to transfer oneself to the spiritual world. Prof. Hopkins: So you see... You see a clear difference there between those who follow the Vaiṣṇava tradition, which is less worldly, more spiritual... *Prabhupāda: That is the ultimate goal of life. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam: na te viduḥ svārtha gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. People do not know what is his self-interest. The self-interest is to approach Viṣṇu. Prof. Hopkins: What about Christian, Christian. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu. Prof. Hopkins: What about Christians? Prabhupāda: Christian also, that is nice, giving instruction to go back to God. It is not? What is the ultimate goal of Christianity? What do they desire? Prof. Hopkins: Hard to answer. There's no clear single goal. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is the goal, single or plural, doesn't matter. Prof. Hopkins: Well, some Christians would say the vision of God, the ultimate goal is to be with God. *Prabhupāda: That is really, to realize God. Not only Christian, any religion. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. There may be different types of religious systems but that system is first class which directly leads one to understand what is God and how to love Him. That's all. That is perfect religion. Prof. Hopkins: So the question... The question in one sense is not whether it's Christian or Śaivite or Vaiṣṇavite but whether it is directed to a knowledge of God, a devotion to God or not. *Prabhupāda: That is first*-class. Prof. Hopkins: But you would feel that there, what, it is easier to reach that goal by worshiping Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is the ultimate goal. Prof. Hopkins: But is it easier or better to be a devotee of Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Hopkins: A Kṛṣṇa bhakta than to be a Christian, say? Prabhupāda: Yes. Anything genuine is easy. Anything hodgepodge, that is not good. We don't recommend hodgepodge. Prof. Hopkins: So the advantage then, or the greater value is that it is focused and clear rather than a hodgepodge where the goal and the activities are not clear. *Prabhupāda: The hodgepodge has killed the whole world, that so many pseudo*-religious systems. People are misled. Prof. Hopkins: So the truth may be there somewhere... Prabhupāda: Truth is everywhere. Prof. Hopkins: But you can't find it. *Prabhupāda: Just like there is butter in the milk but the milk is not butter. You churn it and then the butter will be there. Similarly, in every religious system... Every milk there is butter, but churning the milk and giving direct delivery of butter, that is the Śrīmad Bhagavad*-gītā and Bhāgavata. Prof. Hopkins: And it's more... It's more clear there, you would say, than it is in any other tradition. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now God... Ask any religious system "What is God?" he cannot... What is God? They cannot explain. And we are saying, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." So which is better? If you search after gold and you do not know what is gold... Eh? And if you... If some authorized friend gives, "Here is gold. You take it." That is easier. Prof. Hopkins: So the strength and the value is in knowing... Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Prof. Hopkins: Knowing what gold is. Prabhupāda: That is the only business of human being, to know the Absolute Truth, God. That is the only business. Otherwise what is the difference between cats and dogs and human being? They do not care to know what is God. So if human being also in the same status, doesn't care to know what is God, then what is the difference between dogs and human being? Prof. Hopkins: People, various people read your writings, your commentaries, and they, they react to them sometimes with reservation because they see your writings as dogmatic. Prabhupāda: Hm? Prof. Hopkins: They see your writings... Some people see your writings as dogmatic. Prabhupāda: Or "He is dogmatic." (laughter) Prof. Hopkins: They say, "He is dogmatic," okay. Do you feel that you are dogmatic or... Prabhupāda: No. You find out any passage in my book dogmatic, then you say dogmatic. Any page you open, where is dogmatic? Prof. Hopkins: Well, dogmatic, to call someone else dogmatic means to start with that you don't agree with what they are saying. If I agree with you and you... Prabhupāda: No, you have to agree. You open any passage of my book. Prof. Hopkins: Well, some people would say to insist that Kṛṣṇa is the only way, that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only way... Prabhupāda: No, no. The only thing that God is one, that you have to accept. God cannot be many. If God has got competitor, then he is not God. Prof. Hopkins: Okay. Prabhupāda: So if we don't admit Kṛṣṇa is the only God then you present who is only God. You say me. Either you have to learn from me or I have to learn from you. Prof. Hopkins: So to insist... Prabhupāda: If you do not know what is God you cannot say, "Kṛṣṇa is not God." As soon as you say, "Kṛṣṇa is not God," that means you must know what is God. You present. But if you cannot present, you say, "No, I do not know God," then you cannot say, "Kṛṣṇa is not God." Prof. Hopkins: All right. Prabhupāda: So they are dogmatic. Dogmatically they are saying, "Kṛṣṇa is not God." He does not know God and he says, "Kṛṣṇa is not God." So what is this nonsense? You do not know God. How you can say Kṛṣṇa is not God? Prof. Hopkins: I agree with you, I just... I want to get... (laughter) If we're dogmatic, we're on the same side. Prabhupāda: We are not dogmatic. Those people who are talking us as dogmatic, he is dogmatic. He does not know God, and when God is presented before him, he says, "No, He is not God." That is dogmatic. Prof. Hopkins: Would you... Do you feel that those who've had genuine religious, spiritual understanding would not have that kind of argument? *Prabhupāda: Yes. One... We say... I do not say, in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that... Find out this verse, Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda: As soon as one denies Kṛṣṇa is not God, then he comes within those categories: miscreant, rascal, lowest of the mankind, his knowledge is taken away by māyā, and he's a demon. Prof. Hopkins: (laughs) That's a strong statement. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is God. If he does not know, then he must be amongst these groups. Prof. Hopkins: What if someone says, "Śiva is God?" Prabhupāda: He may say, but śāstra doesn't say. Prof. Hopkins: So you... *Prabhupāda: Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7], "Nobody or no principle is greater than Me." Then who can be God? God is great. Here the great says, "There is no more greater principle than Me." Then who can be God? People generally know God is great. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. Not only He says but it is confirmed by great authorities like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, all the big, big ācāryas, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Vyāsadeva, authorities. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. So how you can deny? Prof. Hopkins: You refer to Rāmānujācārya as an important person. Where does he... Where does he fit into your, the Caitanya tradition? He's accepted as an authority. His, the Śrī Bhāṣya is studied, accepted... *Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has written comment on Bhagavad*-gītā. You know that? Prof. Hopkins: No. Prabhupāda: Eh? Prof. Hopkins: No. *Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad*-gītā Caitanya philosophy is discussed. Prof. Hopkins: So you would see no basic difference between Rāmānuja's position and... Prabhupāda: They cannot be different because both of them are Vaiṣṇava. So this is the common point, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is preaching Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord. Rāmānujācārya was preaching Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord. So where is difference? Prof. Hopkins: Well, I don't see a difference, but... Prabhupāda: People know it. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. Prof. Hopkins: What about certain other traditions; Ishnamadeva(?), Tukārāma, some of the poet saints of Maharastra. Where... Prabhupāda: Yes, Tukārāma accepted Viṣṇu as the Supreme. He accepted the process of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He accepted Caitanya Mahāprabhu as his guru so there is no difference between Tukārāma and Caitanya. Prof. Hopkins: So Tukārāma, you would say, is teaching the same thing as Caitanya? *Prabhupāda: Yes, saṅkīrtana. And Kṛṣṇa is teaching the same thing. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. Find out. Prof. Hopkins: So by saying that the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism is, and Caitanya, are the central way of... You are not excluding... Prabhupāda: Eh? Prof. Hopkins: You would not... Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Hopkins: You are not excluding the Pandarpur tradition of Tukārāma, Rāmanitoba, (indistinct), you are not excluding the Alavars and Rāmancha, but you are saying all of these groups, all of these teachers. Prabhupāda: Tukārāma accepts Caitanya Mahaprabhu as his guru. Then where is the difference? Prof. Hopkins: So that Lord Vitoba and Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Is the same. Prof. Hopkins: You see as the same. Prabhupāda: Vitoba means Viṣṇu. They call Vitoba. Prof. Hopkins: And the Alavars, the Alavars of Tamil Nadu. Prabhupāda: Alavar. Prof. Hopkins: Alavar. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also Vaiṣṇava. Prof. Hopkins: You would accept their teachings also? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Prof. Hopkins: So the real question then is Vaiṣṇavas and others. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Hopkins: The central teaching... *Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava and non*-Vaiṣṇava. *Prof. Hopkins: Vaiṣṇava and non*-Vaiṣṇava. So it's not a question of sectarian differences within Vaiṣṇavism. [break] And you would see the worshipers of Śiva as impersonalists? Prabhupāda: Impersonalists. Prof. Hopkins: You would see... All of them. Prabhupāda: The Śaivites, the Śaṅkarācārya. Prof. Hopkins: Śaṅkarācārya, I know he is. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śaṅkarācārya's theory is the ultimate, the Absolute Truth is impersonal. And one can imagine a personal form for the benefit of the worshiper. Prof. Hopkins: But there are some worshipers of Śiva who would be personalists. Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Hopkins: You would deny that. *Prabhupāda: They are all impersonalists. They are pañcopāsana. Pañcopāsana means the ultimate, Absolute Truth is impersonal and Śaṅkarācārya recommended that you cannot worship the impersonal, so you conceive a personal form. So that he recommended five: the sun*-god, Lord Śiva, Durgā, and Gaṇeśa, and? What else? And Viṣṇu. Prof. Hopkins: Viṣṇu. Pañca (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But after you are per..., become, you are perfect, then you merge into the impersonal. That is Śaṅkara. Prof. Hopkins: You would see all worshipers of Śiva as following basically that idea. Prabhupāda: No, there are devotees. Just like we, we offer all respect to Lord Śiva. We consider Śiva as the best of the Vaiṣṇavas. Vaiṣṇavānām yathā śambhu. And we have got sampradāya from Śiva. He is considered one of the authority of Vaiṣṇavism. Prof. Hopkins: So you would, you would include... Prabhupāda: Our conception of Śiva is different. Prof. Hopkins: Where would Basavana fit in? Prabhupāda: Eh? Prof. Hopkins: Where would you place Basavana in relation with... Prabhupāda: Who? Prof. Hopkins: Basavana. Prabhupāda: Basavana? Prof. Hopkins: Lingayat. Lingayat teacher. The Śaivite, Śaivite... Prabhupāda: He is impersonalist. Prof. Hopkins: You would say impersonalist. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. They say Śivāham, "I am Śiva." They are impersonalist. If you are Śiva then why you worshiping Śiva? That is impersonalist. Prof. Hopkins: So any position which would deny the difference between the devotee and God, you would see... Prabhupāda: He is impersonalist. Prof. Hopkins: Is impersonalist. Prabhupāda: The impersonalist theory is that I am now devotee. As soon as I become perfect I become one." Prof. Hopkins: Oh. Prabhupāda: That is their theory. Then there is no more difference. In the preliminary stage, when I am not perfect, I am worshiping some imaginary form of God. But when I become perfect there is no need of worshiping, I become one with God. This is impersonal. Now, actually, the Supreme has no form so they recommend whichever form you like to worship you can select out of these five. But their destination is the same. So somebody likes "I worship Śiva," somebody says "I worship Gaṇeśa," somebody says, "I worship Durgā," and Sūrya, or somebody says, "I worship Viṣṇu." So this Vaiṣṇava is impersonalist. You'll find amongst smārta brāhmaṇas there are also some of them Vaiṣṇavas, but they are impersonalists. Prof. Hopkins: So you would... You would say that those, those smārtas say, and I know smārta brāhmaṇas who are worshipers of Viṣṇu. You would say they still are impersonalists in some ultimate sense because at some point they would deny... *Prabhupāda: No, it is very difficult to pick them out. Most of the so*-called Vaiṣṇavas, they are impersonalists. Prof. Hopkins: Some, I suspect, are more Vaiṣṇavas than they are smārtas. Prabhupāda: So, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām? Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda: Perpetually. It is not that I am worshiping now and when I am perfect I become one. That is impersonal. Prof. Hopkins: But someone who sees devotion as the not just a stage... Prabhupāda: They say everything one; no devotee, no devotion, and no person. Everything becomes one. Prof. Hopkins: So that would then be the deciding test, as it were, of whether one were a serious devotee or not. Prabhupāda: Devotee means serious devotee. Prof. Hopkins: Not only that one is devoted now, but that one sees the goal as perpetual devotion. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nitya*-yukta. Prof. Hopkins: And which never is there... *Prabhupāda: The word is used, nitya*-yukta. Nitya-yukta means perpetually. If a devotee is to merge into the existence of the Lord then why this word is used, nitya-yukta. Upāsana. Not only nitya-yukta, upāsana. Upāsana means "you worship Me." As soon as the word is "he worships" that means the worshipable and the mode of worship and the worshiper must be there. That is indicated, nitya-yukta, perpetual. But the Māyāvādīs or these impersonalists, they think that it is temporary. I am devotee temporarily. As soon as I become perfect I become one. Prof. Hopkins: So that you would see then, in terms of, in terms of some kind of theological structure, you would see that Puruṣottama as always... Prabhupāda: Uttama, uttama means the best. Prof. Hopkins: Always superior. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Hopkins: And always... Prabhupāda: That is the word, puruṣottama. Puruṣottama means supreme or superior. So there must be inferior, otherwise, how he is superior? Is it not? Prof. Hopkins: Hm. Prabhupāda: As soon as he is the superior, professor, or the, what is called? Junior or senior. As soon as called senior, there must be junior. Without junior there is no question of senior. Prof. Hopkins: So that the Puruṣottama always stands beyond, always, is other, in addition to be in also everything that there is. *Prabhupāda: Unless He is eternally there, then how the devotee will eternally, nitya*-yukta upāsana, whom to worship? Nitya-yukta upāsana. Unless Puruṣottama is everlasting Puruṣottama then where is the question of worship everlasting? So the Māyāvādīs, they do not understand. Prof. Hopkins: Well, would you... Do you equate then the impersonalists and the Māyāvādīs? Are they the same? Prabhupāda: Almost the same. Prof. Hopkins: At some point I guess they would have to be almost. Prabhupāda: Eh? Prof. Hopkins: At some point I suppose they would almost have to be because to be an impersonalist you would have to deny the ultimate reality of phenomenon, which would make you a Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: They accept this form of God as māyā. Therefore we call them Māyāvādī. Prof. Hopkins: Any form of God, including the Puruṣa. So that your, your central existence, or certainly one of your central existences would be that the ultimate reality is personal, that it is known as Viṣṇu, possessing all qualities. Prof. Hopkins: So it's the mistake... The mistake of the impersonalist then is to identify the complete reality with Brahman, which is only one aspect of the complete reality. Prabhupāda: Just like finger. Finger is one of the item of the whole body. You can't say, "Yes, the finger is my body," because the finger is not the whole body. Similarly, everything is part and parcel of the whole but that does not mean that everything is whole. Prof. Hopkins: And these realities are in a hierarchy in the sense that Brahman, Paramātman... Prabhupāda: Brahman is everything. Brahman is also māyā Brahman, (indistinct) is Brahman. Śabda idaṁ khalv brahman. Because it is the manifestation of Brahman. Brahman's energy. Just like here in this room. Daytime there is sun, but sun is ninety three miles away; ninety three millions miles. But where there is sunshine we can say, "Here is sun." Prof. Hopkins: So that the problem is not the identification of everything with Brahman, which is correct, but the failure to realize that there is the Paramātmā or the Puruṣottama. Prabhupāda: Supreme Person. Prof. Hopkins: Which is beyond this and includes... *Prabhupāda: Just like I have got so many branches, hundred branches. So everyone knows that I am something, but that does not mean I am present everywhere. My student(?) has got this tape..., hundreds of thousands of tape recorders to record my speech and then you speak the same thing that I am speaking, but I am not there. And that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Prof. Hopkins: So that the... Brahmānanda: Prof. Hopkins: So the failure is a failure to go beyond. Prabhupāda: Eh? Prof. Hopkins: The failure is a failure to go beyond, to realize beyond that level of identity, that there is a Lord, who is... Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī philosophy is defective. They say if everything is God then where is the Lord's separate existence. That is their defect. That is materialist theory. If you take a big paper and make it into small pieces and throw it away, then the big paper is lost. (laughs) The Māyāvādī thinks like that, that if everything is Brahman, Brahman is distributed, then where is..., why you call the Supreme Lord? They think that Brahman being distributed, He is finished. This is Māyāvādī. He does not know the potency of God. And that is stated in Upaniṣad. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Prof. Hopkins: So God can create everything out of Himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Hopkins: And still be complete as He was before. Prabhupāda: We can see one material example, that the sun, for millions and trillions of years it is distributing sunshine, heat, but still it is full. If it is possible materially, what about the Supreme Lord? Five thousand years or five millions of years the degree of temperature in the sunshine was the same as it is now. If it is materially so possible how much it is possible spiritually? Prof. Hopkins: Is that... It's difficult for people outside the Kṛṣṇa consciousness group to see what the purpose of the movement is. Prabhupāda: Eh? Prof. Hopkins: It's difficult for people outside the society of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to see what the purpose is. How would you understand the purpose? Simply to make God known? How would you state... Prabhupāda: Our purpose is how to become happy. Everyone is struggling how to become happy. Somebody is thinking that "If I can get money then I'll be happy." Somebody is thinking that "If we become one with the Supreme, then I'll be happy." And somebody thinks that "If I can get material power, then I'll be happy." So those who are thinking in terms of money, they are karmīs. And those who are thinking in terms of becoming one, they are jñānīs. And those who are thinking in terms of getting material power, they are yogis. But the bhaktas, they don't want any such perfection. They, bhaktis, "Let me worship the Supreme, that's all." Therefore he has already (indistinct) and they are all in want. Bhakta is satisfied simply by worshiping the Lord. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi. And all others, karmīs, jñānīs, yogis, they want something so they cannot be happy. So if happiness is my aim, then I must become a bhakta, otherwise there is no happiness. You are always in want. Somebody is in want of money, somebody is in want to becoming one with the Supreme, and somebody wants to show some jugglery, mysticism. So they want something. And a devotee, he doesn't want all these things. He wants to serve Kṛṣṇa, that's all. No demand. And he serves Kṛṣṇa without any motive. Ahaituky apratihatā. That is bhakta. Prof. Hopkins: So what you are doing is simply showing people how to be happy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Hopkins: I like that. Prabhupāda: Thank you. That is the real want, how to become happy. Prof. Hopkins: It's remarkable how complicated simple things get. *Prabhupāda: The example is also very simple. Just like a child is crying and somebody is offering some milk, somebody is offering something but he is still crying. Could not find any cause. Then when the child goes to the mother's lap, immediately (claps)*-stops. He understands immediately, "Now I am on the lap of my mother, then everything is all right." Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Everyone is hankering after making some profit, this way, that way, this way, that way. But when one becomes, gets that supreme thing then he thinks, "Oh, I don't want anything." That is happiness. Unhappiness due to want. So the karmīs, jñānīs, yogis, they are all in want. They want something. Bhaktas are also sometimes in want. They want Kṛṣṇa. And in absence of Kṛṣṇa they are very unhappy, but that unhappiness is greater than happiness. Prof. Hopkins: The gopīs in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is greater than happiness. And the Māyāvādī, karmī, jñānī, they cannot understand. They will say, "Your gopīs are also crying for Kṛṣṇa, for want of Kṛṣṇa." But they do not know that this want is different. Prof. Hopkins: So you have been extremely generous with your time and your wisdom. Prabhupāda: I enjoy(?) that. And that is what the whole human society (indistinct). Prof. Hopkins: Well I... I have been a friend for many years now. I suspect... I suspect sometimes that I may end up as a sannyāsī among your line at some point. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa does not mean change of dress. Sannyāsa means everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is sannyāsa. Prof. Hopkins: What is your view of Śrī Aurobindo? (loud laughter) Or should I have left well enough alone? He is not an impersonalist, he's not a Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: He says that above the Māyāvāda philosophy there is something else, super. That is bhakti. (indistinct) ...bhakti, but he could not understand because he did not take any education from realized person. He wanted to realize himself. That is his defect. Prof. Hopkins: So one who... You would see his effort to transcend, I suppose you would call it... *Prabhupāda: That effort was for life after life. Then when his effort will be successful he will realize Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. Prof. Hopkins: So his problem was the effort to attempt to do this on his own without going through... Prabhupāda: The guru. Prof. Hopkins: The guru. Prabhupāda: Therefore it will take time. Just like a man searching after the right path but he does not care to ask anybody, he is loitering in the forest. Prof. Hopkins: You... I'm sure you're familiar with his essays on the *Gītā*. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Hopkins: Which I think are generally quite good, his essays on the *Gītā* themselves. Are there places there that you would strongly disagree with in his, what he says? Prabhupāda: No, we disagree with the whole system because he is trying to understand the Absolute Truth by his own effort. That is not possible. Prof. Hopkins: So you would say then that no matter... He may have the right idea, but he has not, he has not... Prabhupāda: He may be a great thoughtful man but (indistinct) ...a realized man. Prof. Hopkins: Not realized. I'm sorry I raised the question right at the last minute but it occurred to me and I was interested in your answer. So, thank you very much. Prabhupāda: You have given him prasāda? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: You are staying here? Prof. Hopkins: No, I'm going back to Lancaster this evening. I have tomorrow... Tomorrow morning we are getting a group of students together to go to India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Prof. Hopkins: I am not going but we're sending seventeen students to India, leaving tomorrow evening. Brahmānanda: You can stay at our guest house in Vṛndāvana. Prof. Hopkins: Ah, could I pass on the people an invitation from you that that would be possible? Brahmānanda: Yes. Definitely we can arrange it. Prof. Hopkins: Because I know there are students in the group who would like to visit Vṛndāvana. And you, I think, talked to some this spring and you were there. I know that the senior student with the group is very interested in going to Vṛndāvana. Devotee: We have nice facility there. (indistinct) Prof. Hopkins: That's true. They're going to be in Delhi for a week or so. It would be great if they could get out to Vṛndāvana just for a day. They can come back later when they have more time. So... Would they have to make preliminary arrangements or could they...? Is there some way they could make arrangements from Delhi to do that? Brahmānanda: Afterwards we can discuss it. Prof. Hopkins: Okay. So. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Prof. Hopkins: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- July 14, 1975, Philadelphia Prabhupāda: Both sides forest. [break] Now in America there is no sufficient men to live in all these places, to cut, clear it and make cottages and utilize the land for producing. There is no sufficient men, I think. And where there is overpopulation, why not invite them to come here? That they will not do. [break] ...has given sufficient land for all the people, but we have made artificial national area, will not allow. Guru dāsa: In India this would all be utilized for living. Prabhupāda: Yes. These places also should be allowed to the people who are overpopulated. No visa, no immigration. The whole world is simply mismanaged for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pramattaḥ, the word used, pramattaḥ, mad. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma: [SB 5.5.4] "All people mad and engaged in misdeeds only for sense gratification." [break] ...this room? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Now it is just used for garbage. Prabhupāda: [break] ...all like this, jungle? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Yes, all along this creek there's a forest like this. This has been done in Philadelphia all along the river, and this huge area of land has been set aside. It's like this. No one can use it except to take walks. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: The question that I wrote to Śrīla Prabhupāda, the answer that Śrīla Prabhupāda gave me was that the cells in the body and the jīvātmā that resides in the heart, they are different living entities. But my understanding was directed to the relationship between the two, the jīvātmā in the cells and the jīvātmā in the heart, how they are related, how they... Prabhupāda: They are separate identity. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it looks like, though, in the material body the one cannot exist without another. They look like interdependent. Prabhupāda: That may be, but still, they are individuals. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: When the jīva in the heart dies, then all the other cells in the body also have to die. Prabhupāda: No. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: No, they don't. But when the body decays, doesn't everything... Prabhupāda: No. Dead body so many germs come out. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Oh. Prabhupāda: How it comes? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that is different, though. When a body dies, then there are many germs from outside that... Prabhupāda: Living entities within the body, they come out, hundreds and thousands. They have not died. Suppose in this jungle there are so many living entities. If I die, what has got to do with them? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But science tries to understand what is life and in order to do that they just want to understand what is cell. Because science tries to understand what is life, and in order to do that they just want to study what is the cell because cells are the smallest living units of life. That is their understanding. So once they understand what a cell is, then they know what life is. That is their aim. So if the cells and the jīvātmā within the heart, they are different and they are independent, then they cannot conceive of just having a jīvātmā in the heart. Prabhupāda: That... The particular jīvātmā who has been given this body, he is living in the heart. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: But according to the scientists, our body is made up of little cells just like a brick wall is made up of so many individual bricks. Each... Like in one piece of skin there is... Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is body. Just like I live in a house. The house is made of so many bricks. But I am not brick. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: But they say that... Prabhupāda: "They say!" They are foolish, we always say. Because I am living in a house consisting of so many bricks, it does not mean that I am brick. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: But is each cell an individual living entity? Prabhupāda: That I do not know. What do you mean by cell? But there are many living entities within this body. That we know. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is different from the concept of cell. there are many living entities like germs... Prabhupāda: So concept of cell is the cell is just like bricks. Matter and spirit, two things are there. Either it must be matter or must be spirit. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: But it's seen that the scientists, they can take some skin from your body and by putting in different solutions can keep that skin itself alive for such a long time. They have taken the heart of a chicken out of the chicken's body and then kept it beating for so many hours even though that heart was away from the main chicken. Or they take some other tissue and keep it alive. So they say that each cell is an individual living being. Prabhupāda: So we have no objection. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: That is all right. So there is a spirit soul in every... Prabhupāda: No, no. All right or not all right I don't say. But if they say like that, we have no objection Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the understanding to find out what life is is just to study what a cell is. That is their... They say that cells are composed of these molecules. Prabhupāda: What is the position of the cells when the man dies? Svaupa Dāmodara: The cells are dead. The cells that compose the body, they are dead. There are may be new living entities coming from different parts, but the cell that composed the human body is dead. They cannot reproduce anymore. Prabhupāda: So what is your proposal? That cell is life? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So can you develop life from the cells? As you said that you take the skin and you keep, so take the cells and develop into life. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's called culturing of the cells. They can culture it. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Whether you have done it. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Well, they have that process called cloning? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, no, this is the culture. That means take a cell from a living tissue, and you culture it and you supply the sufficient nutrients. Then theoretically they will grow forever. They will divide. They will... Prabhupāda: So they will grow to a human being? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Not a human being, but the cells just divide. Prabhupāda: Then an ant, an ant? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: Then what is this? (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughing) But the cell is still alive. Prabhupāda: But you said that as soon as the man dies, they also die. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is what my question arose, how these, the relationship between the jīvātmā in cells and the jīvātmā in the heart. Prabhupāda: The jīvātmā... If the cells are living entities, then why do they not remain? Just like other living entities, they remain in the body and they come out. Even the man who has died, he is not there, but the other living entities are there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it seems that the cells are not independent. They are somehow controlled by the jīvātmā or the... Of course, Paramātmā is controlling everything. But I know sometimes the cells that compose the body of a living body, it seems that they are not independent; they are dependent. Prabhupāda: That may be. But what about your cultivating living entities from the cells? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that can be done. That they have already done. Prabhupāda: "That can be done," you say everything. But you never done. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: They call it... You know that? They call it cloning? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Cloning is a different process, though. Cloning is just they take the life from the genes from different species and put this together and form a new species called hybrids of some living entity. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: The scientists say that the cells reproduce not by mating but by splitting in half... Prabhupāda: That is possible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But once Śrīla Prabhupāda told us, though, that I am in the heart and... Prabhupāda: I am an individual. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that is my position. I live in the heart, and I go away. Other living entities may remain there. Gurudāsa: When a heart is transplanted does the soul stay in the heart? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I want to clarify another that Prabhupāda told us that compared with the cells, I am a little bigger god, but the cells are smaller. Just like we are serving spiritual master. Similarly, the cells are serving. They have no choice in the... Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good idea. Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So similarly, we were discussing with the Balavanta Prabhu one day about the... He was giving a nice example that in a kingdom where the king stays... Just like Śrīla Prabhupāda's example: living in an apartment. Śrīla Prabhupāda and disciples and many other living entities stay in the same apartment, but a person, an individual, who knows his position, is to serve the order of the head of the apartment. But somebody doesn't follow. He just goes away from the apartment. So Balavanta was asking what is the use of that? So similarly, when the cells... We can take out from one part of the body and can culture it, but what is the use? It produces, but actually it's not really behaving as it should. It has no value. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are just like machine parts. Parts and parcels, they are helping the whole machine work. Svarūpa Dāmodara: About Guru dāsa prabhu's point, when the heart transplant, the soul stays in the subtle body. Is that sound? Prabhupāda: Yes. Soul is always staying in the subtle body, and the subtle body is left when he goes to God or kingdom of God. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: One thing I'm trying to understand is how is it that the soul wants different things and then the material body acts according to the desires of the soul? So there is a cause and thereis an effect. Normally all our cause and effect, we see one material thing causing another material thing to happen. But how is it the spirit causes? What is the connection that spirit causes matter to do so many things? The spirit is manipulating the matter, but how? How is that contact there? Prabhupāda: Contact? It is already in contact. You are in the material body. It is already in contact. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: But I don't understand how that contact is working. Prabhupāda: Contact is working under the direction of God. The individual soul desires, and God arranges to fulfill his desire with the help of prakṛti. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: So when I want to move my hand, when I want to move this hand and so I will to move my hand, actually there has to be God involved in that action. Otherwise the hand won't move. Prabhupāda: Paralyzed. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Paralyzed. Prabhupāda: When your hand is paralyzed what you can do? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Do actually I don't directly do anything with matter. It is all Kṛṣṇa's doing everything with the matter. Devotee: "Man proposes, God disposes." Prabhupāda: Yes. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Also I heard that also in every act of..., like if I want to blink my eyelid, also there is a demigod. What is the necessity of so many demigods? Why can't Kṛṣṇa directly... Prabhupāda: That how you can know? You are not the director. Director knows how many assistants he requires. You cannot know... You are under the direction. You are not director. [break] ...not a mechanic he cannot understand why there are so many parts in the motor car. He is a fool. He doesn't know. But a mechanic knows that these things are required. Guru dāsa: If the soul cannot be burnt, why does the desire to be burnt in the material world there? Burnt, drowned... *Svarūpa*-damodara: Destroyed. Prabhupāda: He is not destroyed. When this body cannot work any more... Because this body is a machine. So a machine, if he does not move, then you, have to change to another machine. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The desire is not... Actually it is not burned; it just changed. The desire is changed to for a higher purpose. We have a choice between the subtle desires. Just change is the there from one to another. Prabhupāda: No, the same example: just like in a motor car you desire to go this side, but the machine is stopped, so you have to accept another motor car. It is like that, to fulfill your desire. After all it is a machine. Machine is matter. So it has got a time to work. When it is not working, then you change to another machine to fulfill your desire. Guru dāsa: If God, Kṛṣṇa, desires the motor car to turn right, what makes the car turn left? Prabhupāda: Not Kṛṣṇa desires. You desire. Kṛṣṇa helps you. Kṛṣṇa desires you give up all this nonsense and surrender to Him. Only He desires that. But if you don't do, you will desire so many things. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It remains a mystery to great thinkers that though the soul is pure by nature and transcendental, but somehow it is trapped in the subtle and gross body and... Prabhupāda: Because he desired. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañchā kare. When he wants to enjoy this material world... In the spiritual world there is only one enjoyer. And in the material world everyone is a enjoyer. He is planning in his own way how to enjoy. That is material world. In the spiritual world the enj..., is Kṛṣṇa, and all others is helping in His enjoyment. But in material world everyone is thinking, "I am enjoyer," and he is planning in his own way. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, modern philosophy is teaching that the forces of greed and lust and these things are greater than man, that actually... This concept that we are eternal, full of knowledge and bliss, they cannot accept that or understand that. They're thinking that the powers of evil are much greater, and we're just controlled by these things. *Prabhupāda: Therefore they are fools. When a man's lusty desire is very strong, he commits, what is called, rape, and he becomes complicated in criminal activities. Kāma eṣa krodha eṣa rajo*-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ. Why one is forced to do that? The cause is lusty desires, anger, greediness. So we are thinking we are master of this material world, but actually you are servant of these desires, kāma, krodha, lobha, mohaḥ. And that is māyā. He is acting as servant, but he's thinking, "I am master." That is māyā, which is not the fact. Just like yesterday we were discussing that the women, they are acting as instrument of men, and they are thinking, "We have equal rights." A man is utilizing her for his own purpose, and she is thinking "I am equal." *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: I think you really surprised them when you told them that this women's liberation is just a trick by the men just to increase the class of prostitutes, available prostitutes. Prabhupāda: Free prostitutes. You go to a prostitute; you have to pay. Here they have arranged in such a way that free prostitute loitering on the street, and you can enjoy any one. This is their plan. They are rendered into beggar, and they are thinking equal rights. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, what does it mean that the soul is immovable? Prabhupāda: Immovable? Where it is? *Devotee (2): It states this in Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: What is this? What is the verse? Devotee (2): I don't know exactly. It's in the Second Chapter. Kṛṣṇa's describing the nature of the spirit soul to Arjuna. Does anyone know that verse? Nitāi: Sthanur acalo 'yam...? Prabhupāda: Immovable in this sense: when he is fixed up in a certain body, then he is immovable from that body. Acalo 'yam sthanuḥ, sthanuḥ. Just like we're speaking of transplanting the heart. That does not mean you move the soul. That is immovable. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the pure devotee's spirit soul is not trapped by the gross and subtle bodies? *Prabhupāda: Yes, when he is liberated by devotional service. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Devotee (4): Prabhupāda, when we try to explain to people that our philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is authoritative and is coming from undisturbed men, learned men, that our spiritual master is not an ordinary man, what does it mean that he is not an ordinary man? *Prabhupāda: He is not moved by the rascal scientist. (laughter) All rascals are moved by the so*-called scientists. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda... (laughter) Prabhupāda: (laughing) The scientist is angry. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The soul is trapped as well as untrapped in the material body... Prabhupāda: Because he wanted to be trapped. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But sometimes it is also untrapped. But sometimes he is also free. Prabhupāda: No, by nature, he is not mixed up with these material things, but he is entrapped by his free will. Just like we are staying here. We are not bound to stay here, but we have come here. Nobody has forced us to come here. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So is that philosophy, simultaneously one and different... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...that acintya*-bhedābheda is also applicable in the case of... Prabhupāda: No, soul never mixes with the matter. Now I have come here, I am not mixed up with this jungle. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it looks like it... Prabhupāda: It looks like. That is another thing. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. The Vedic injunction is" "The puruṣa, the soul, is never complicated or mixed up with this." Because just like oil and water, it never mixes. The oil keeps its separate identity in water. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. But if you put in a body, though they cannot be mixed, but they can stay together. Like in a chemical laboratory we take a test tube. In the test tube I can mix two solutions like, for example, mercury and water and oil. They will not mix, but they will stay in the same test tube. But a man who knows about the art of separating those three mixtures can do it very nicely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, soul does not mix with the matter and by this art, transcendental knowledge, you can become out of it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that's why we need a process and someone who knows the process of. *Prabhupāda: The process is bhakti*-yoga. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān: [Bg. 14.26] "Anyone who has taken to this bhakti-yoga," māṁ ca vyabhicariṇi bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate, "he immediately becomes free from the mixture of these three guṇas." Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. "He again revives his Brahman nature." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtāḥ prasannātmā: [Bg. 18.54] Then he understands that 'I have no connection with these all nonsense things. I am brahma-bhūtāḥ.' " Devotee (4): Prabhupāda, we're in this material world, in this human body, we're having to work with this intelligence, with mind, material things. So there is a group of philosophers that say that actually because we're a product, our mind, the way we're thinking now is a product of our upbringing and our past, that actually we have no free will, but we're forced to think and act in a certain way. Prabhupāda: Why you are forced? Devotee (4): Because of conditioning. Prabhupāda: Then that you have to admit that you are conditioned by some authority. When you are put into jail, you cannot act independently. You have to act according to the jail superintendent's order. Devotee (3): Prabhupāda, is our desire to be eternal, blissful and full of knowledge... Prabhupāda: Now let me finish. You will never be able to understand if you jump over like that. Let one thing be understood. Devotee (4): So he admits he's conditioned, but still, there's no free will. He says, "Yeah, so I'm in the prison. I'm imprisoned. I'm conditioned." Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Free will... Just like a man commits theft by his free will. But when he is put into jail, then no more free will. He has to act according to the jail superintendent. But his beginning of jail life is free will. Nobody asked him that "You go to jail." But why he has come? He knows also that "When I am put into jail, I will lose all my freedom." He knows that. Still, he comes. Why does he come? He knows that. That is called ajñāna. Mūḍha. That is called mūḍha. He knows; still, he does. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He is taking a chance. Prabhupāda: Yes, that means he is becoming implicated. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He thinks that maybe he will be free, that..., if sometimes there's also a chance that he will be caught. Prabhupāda: That is ajñāna. As soon as he, "may be," that means ajñāna. Devotee (4): So that's why we originally fell down? Prabhupāda: Knowledge must be solid. There is no question "of maybe," no. Just like if you touch fire, there is no question of "maybe." It must burn you. You may think, "It may not burn," but that is your foolishness. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: So they think that they can enjoy material nature but not be implicated. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not implicated. He is already implicated. There is no question of maybe. Must. Devotee (5): . So when we fell down from the spiritual world... Prabhupāda: Then you must suffer. There is no question, "maybe." Devotee (5): When we fell down we were thinking, we could enjoy like that, in the same way? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is foolishness. And we are making our plan how to enjoy. That is our foolishness. And Kṛṣṇa says "You give up all these nonsense plans. Come to Me." Devotee (5): Is this example proper, that a son is being well taken care of by the father, but sometimes he's thinking, "I can enjoy more some other way?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can I change the topic? Last, day before yesterday, morning, Prabhupāda said that plants are more highly developed than the fish or the aquatics. But someone may ask what about the dolphins and the seals. They are regarded as very intelligent and highly developed. Prabhupāda: Every living entity has a particular type of intelligence which is greater than the other. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, in the evolutionary cycle. Talking about the... Prabhupāda: No, evolutionary, cycle, the body may change, but every living entity has got a special advantage upon the others. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: What is the advantage of a tree, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: You see how they are standing there for five thousand years. You cannot do it. You cannot do it even for five minutes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually the trees are absolutely necessary for the survival of animals. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. We say nothing is necessary, simply Kṛṣṇa is necessary. That is material conception: "This is necessary. This is necessary." But Kṛṣṇa says, "Nothing is necessary." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. You are simply planning and becoming entangled with so-called "necessary." Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that is on the spiritual platform. Prabhupāda: You can create spiritual platform immediately. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān [Bg. 14.26]. If you fully engage yourself in devotional service, immediately you are above this material conception. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the concept that the three modes of material nature, they're working all species, so it's not the... Prabhupāda: They are directing. Just like in the jail there are different departmental management, similarly, this management is required because you are in the jail. If you don't go to jail, the management may be closed. But you are thinking, "If I do not go to jail, how it will exist?" That is your business, say that "If we all become liberated, how this world will go on?" They say like that, as if it is very necessary. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is the subtle bodies in the subtle world, are they made up of subtle atoms? Prabhupāda: Subtle body means subtle atoms. So if we are in subtle body, so whatever there is in the subtle body, everything is there. Devotee (6): Prabhupāda, sometimes on saṅkīrtana we say that the human form of life is the highest because in this form we can understand God, and they say, "Well, what about the dolphins? You know, they've been doing experiments with the dolphins, and they've been finding out that the dolphins have their own conversations and things like that." Prabhupāda: So what they have done with the dolphins? They are talking only. What they have done? Simply theorizing. [break] Prabhupāda: (in car) ...improved anything. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: No. Prabhupāda: They are going on ciraṁ vicinvan. Forever they are simply thinking, and no improvement has done. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Of course, they promise that they will be able to do so many... Prabhupāda: That everyone can, a child can also promise. That is another thing. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: [break] ...the cells because they say that the cells are the fundamental unit of life and if they can understand even a very simple cell, then they think perhaps they can find the principles to understand everything living. Prabhupāda: Well, this "perhaps..." *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: But they can't understand the cell. Prabhupāda: Yes. So their "perhaps," "maybe," is going on. And that will continue. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Why does the living entity wish to speculate in this way? Prabhupāda: He has been given a special advantage to think of God, but instead of thinking God, he is thinking all these rubbish things, which he will never be able to fulfill. Misusing. The thinking power he is misusing. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: So this mental speculation or this "perhaps" and "maybe" is a misuse of his specific power to understand God. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The life, human life, is meant for enquiring about God, and God is explaining Himself about God. Instead of studying Bhagavad*-gītā very scrutinizingly, they are wasting time. "The cells, this, that, atom." That's all, wasting time Just like we are driving this car. So we can utilize it for going from one place to another. So there is no need of studying how the car is moving, how many parts are there. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: But still, people seem to have always a curiosity about these things. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That curiosity is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā that it is a machine and there are many subtle parts of the machine. So you have been given this machine. You utilize it properly. Why you are busy in studying the different parts? The different parts are there undoubtedly. But you cannot actually understand. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: We're going to take a picture, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All right. (end) Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco *Nalinī*-kaṇṭha: No, American boys and girls. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Nalinī*-kaṇṭha: Swami Muktananda. He is very sick in the hospital. Brahmānanda: He has a brain hemorrhage. Prabhupāda: So anyway, he is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all right. [break] ...do not come to our temple? What is the reason? *Nalinī*-kaṇṭha: Well, in the Nectar of Devotion you say that they don't chant with an aim to serve the Lord. Rather, they want to become one with Him. So they know that in the temple we are serving Kṛṣṇa. Jayatīrtha: Besides that, when they come, usually someone calls them a rascal. (laughs) So they don't like to come. Prabhupāda: No, no, don't say. [break] This is the first time I come here. Brahmānanda: Golden Gate Park? Prabhupāda: Yes, Golden Gate. What happened about that house? Citsukhānanda: We are still trying to negotiate, Prabhupāda. [break] Prabhupāda: ...university. It is almost like, not so big. You were in, anyone? Paris? Brahmānanda: Yes, Sorbonne. I've been there, yes. Prabhupāda: Not so big. Brahmānanda: No. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: But this is huge. [break] Prabhupāda: ...consider nim sacred. [break] ...psychology. [break] *Dharmādhyakṣa: ...singing and dancing are great stimulants to self*-realization. And he says but he doesn't know why, but he said that perhaps if we study the glands more carefully, we will find out why singing and dancing stimulates identity. [break] Prabhupāda: ...parvato muākam aprasavat: "Himalaya will give birth children." So many people gathered, "Must be very gigantic." But they saw only rats are coming. [break] Bahulāśva: ...is from this school, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Where is Yadubara? Bahulāśva: Right here, Yadubara. Brahmānanda: Poor Yadubara. (laughter) Yadubara: I am one of the rats. [break] Prabhupāda: ...also? No. Harikeśa: Viśakha? No. [break] Yadubara: ...four years, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and I was full of anxiety all the time. [break] Dharmādhyakṣa: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, more pictures of rats and pigeons than human beings. In the modern textbooks of psychology you find more pictures of rats and pigeons than human beings. Prabhupāda: Why? Dharmādhyakṣa: Because they feel that they can study the behavior of rats and pigeons very easily, much more easily than a human being. They can manipulate them. And then they extrapolate from their data on the rats and pigeons as to what human behavior is. Prabhupāda: So, but they say that except man, there is no soul? Jayatīrtha: But now they say that no one has a soul. Dharmādhyakṣa: No, the modern psychological definition is that man is a flesh and blood organism and that you can know man by studying his bodily processes. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you give life to the flesh and blood? Dharmādhyakṣa: That is a problem. Prabhupāda: Then it is foolishness. Dharmādhyakṣa: Oh, definitely. Bahulāśva: In California they have passed a law that homosexuality is legal. So the psychologists say that they see the dogs and the hogs and monkeys having homosex relationships, so on that grounds, they say, it should be legal. Prabhupāda: They have got homosex? Dogs, hogs, I don't think. Bahulāśva: Yeah, dogs, they say. We were preaching in this one convention that the dogs are also fighting. So therefore fighting and murder should be legal too because the dogs do that also. Brahmānanda: Their argument was because the dogs have homosex, therefore the man should have...? Bahulāśva: Should have homosex. Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes, if an animal does it, then a human being should have the same right to do it also. Jayatīrtha: Then they can pass stool in the street also? Prabhupāda: Then what is the difference between man and animal? They do not find any difference? Bahulāśva: No. Prabhupāda: Then why they find difference in having soul? Brahmānanda: Well, that is the Christian. But these modern psychologists, they don't even think that the human being has soul. That he's the same as the animal. Bahulāśva: Actually psyche means soul. Prabhupāda: Psyche means mental activities, thinking, feeling, and willing. [break] ...keeping building department different. Jayatīrtha: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...their opinion about birth, death? Bahulāśva: They think that birth is the beginning of the body and that when death comes everything is finished. Prabhupāda: So why again body comes? Bahulāśva: What body is that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Just like you take fruits from the tree. Again fruits come. *Dharmādhyakṣa: That is the genes. Before a body dies, it produces some sperm or something and this by*-product, and in this by-product there is the life principle, and it is transmitted just like a seed. So the body produces some seeds, and in the genes, in the genetic code, there is a program, and by chance a new being comes into existence. Prabhupāda: Again chance. *Bahulāśva: This has become a very popular subject, psychology. About 80% of the students take a class in this. And they took a survey, and the reason most students take this class is to find out more about who they are themself. So it is the closest thing in the west to self*-realization. Jayatīrtha: They've found out that "I am no better than the animal"? That's the conclusion? Dharmādhyakṣa: One school. Then there's another school. They say, "How can you base a theory of human nature on animals?" They do not like this. They are revolting against making man an animal. *Bahulāśva: Bhagavad*-gītā gives the best psychology. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: How to control the mind to uplift the self. Prabhupāda: [break] So why the dogs cannot construct such building? [break] ...psychology? Why they haven't got the same psychology? Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, the scientists would say that "We have the same psychology. We have a material psychology, the dog has a material psychology, but we're just a little more advanced, that's all." *Prabhupāda: So similarly, there may be others who are still advanced. Therefore the most advanced is God. This should be the psychology. As we see there is difference between dogs and hogs and man, so go on. Search out. So when you find out the most intelligent person, then he is God. [break] ...parataraṁ nānyat. That is statement of Bhagavad*-gītā: "No more intelligent. Here, ultimate. I am God." So from psychological point of view how they can deny God? Yadubara: No one is teaching that in this big university. Therefore the students are very discouraged, depressed. *Prabhupāda: Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Paramaḥ, paramaḥ means the Supreme. Our definition of God is that supreme in every respect. What man can do, the dog cannot do. What the dog can do, the cat cannot do. What the cat can do, the rat cannot do. So we see so many differences. Therefore there must be others who are more intelligent than man. That is demigod. And there must be others most intelligent than the demigods. In this way when you come to the final, that is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Go on finding out more, more, more. When you come to the final, that is God or Kṛṣṇa. So we take instruction from Him. Therefore we are better than the so*-called university professors. Bahulāśva: In this tower they had to put glass so the students wouldn't jump out. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Ohh! Just see. Yadubara: In 1963 they had... I think they put these things up, but so many people were committing suicide by jumping. Prabhupāda: Why they were committing suicide? Yadubara: Because everyone was very depressed. This is supposed to be enlightenment, a place of knowledge. But everyone was very depressed. Dharmādhyakṣa: Being taught that they are the body. I went to a Catholic university and they taught me in psychology, and it was a priest. And they were teaching this, that I am a bodily process. And he never challenged the textbook. So when one thinks he's the body and if he's intelligent, a very depressing thought. Even in the Catholic universities they use these textbooks that teach this materialism. Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ: [SB 7.5.31] "Blind man is leading other blind men." Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the jīva soul desires to enter the material world, is that an illusory desire? Prabhupāda: Yes. Desire means he wants to enjoy, but he is not enjoyer. When he comes to enjoy, he becomes servant. That is illusion. Dharmādhyakṣa: So when the jīva soul descends into the material world, it is like a hallucination? Prabhupāda: Yes. We get experience daily. In the daytime we have forgotten the night dream, and night dream we forget in this daytime existence. So which is correct? Therefore it is hallucination. [break] Dharmādhyakṣa: ...one psychologist who believes man is his body but he talks very much about transcendence. Even the materialists now, they realize that the present condition is very miserable and this false ego is the cause of all problems, so they are seeking some form of transcendence. And many psychologists are talking about transcendence nowadays as the solution to life's problems. Prabhupāda: What do they define about transcendence? *Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, actually they give all the characteristics of transcendence that are found in the Bhagavad*-gītā but without saying that man is a spirit soul and without talking about Kṛṣṇa. They believe man should overcome duality, should be beyond attachment, should work for a higher goal in life, things like this, all the characteristics that Kṛṣṇa gives but without Kṛṣṇa. *Bahulāśva: It appears that they have taken these things from Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Yes, they must. What is this department? [break] ...cial science. Bahulāśva: How to live in peace. How to live, peaceful society. Prabhupāda: And fall down from the tower? (laughter) Dharmādhyakṣa: That is part of the study, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's called alienation, why people are alienated. Prabhupāda: Now it is very peaceful, fall down and finish. That's all. Suicide. Dharmādhyakṣa: The reason they say that people are committing suicide is there is not enough meaning in life, and there's not enough meaning in life because the capitalists are exploiting all the people and making people work very, very hard. *Prabhupāda: But they have meaning, life. You have no meaning, but they have meaning. Some section have meaning. They are accusing capitalist. So they have meaning. Why you say there is no meaning? You have no meaning. You have no money*-you have no meaning. (laughter) Dharmādhyakṣa: That is their feeling, that if everyone had equal... Prabhupāda: No, therefore you cannot say life has no meaning. You have no meaning, but others may have. You cannot say, generalization, that life has no meaning. Bahulāśva: We can say your life has no meaning. Prabhupāda: Yes. You are unfortunate. You have no meaning. We have meaning. We are going back to home, back to Godhead. Dharmādhyakṣa: Jaya. Another reason they feel very depressed is that they feel powerless, that they have no power to control their destiny, that all the big social forces, all the big social powers, they're controlling their lives, and... Prabhupāda: Then why you are so much proud of having all the knowledge? Then you admit that you are a rascal. You have no... You are dependent, and you are trying to be independent. That is not being possible, therefore you are rascal. Your education has no meaning because you are dependent and you are trying to be independent. Dharmādhyakṣa: Most professors nowadays, they will admit that they have no absolute knowledge, that everything they know is relative and that there might be something much better than what they are teaching. *Prabhupāda: There might... There is. But you rascal, you do not take it. That is your fault. There is, not "There might be." Here is Bhagavad*-gītā. [break] ...Bhagavad-gītā it is said, etat jñānam: "This is knowledge, and all other things, they are not knowledge." Etat jñānam. Bahulāśva: Anything other than this is ignorance? Prabhupāda: Ignorance. *Citsukhānanda: Your teachings, the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, had not come here before. So these people are misled. So just recently you have presented. So in a sense it is not their fault because they have had not the chance to hear Bhagavad-gītā as it is. They have got many Bhagavad-gītā, but they were not able to understand. But now by your grace, maybe we'll see the reaction in a few years. Maybe all this will change. Prabhupāda: Do they say like that or you are saying? Citsukhānanda: Well, some people have said. Not widely yet. The work must go on. There's much to go. [break] Dharmādhyakṣa: Bacteriology, study of germs. So Śrīla Prabhupāda, the reason one person gets a disease from a germ and another person doesn't get a disease, it is karma? Prabhupāda: No, that is infection. If you are weak, you are infected. That is the science. One who is not weak, he does not become infected. Just like in your country there are so many liquor shop, but you are not interested. So it is like that. Dharmādhyakṣa: We have a little strength through your divine grace. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many slaughterhouses, but we are not infected. So it is the strength that saves one man from infection. [break] ...learned scholars, they are astonished that I have hypnotized. Otherwise how it is possible? What that Judah's, "charis"...? Brahmānanda: Charismatic. Prabhupāda: Charismatic. Bahulāśva: They say that we're becoming brainwashed. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Why you cannot do? It is brainwash, yes, all dirty things you are... Bahulāśva: Are being cleansed. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: Brainwashed and also heartwashed. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mār... That is our process, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleansing the mirror of heart. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. This is our process, cleansing. Tato rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayas [SB 1.2.19]. [break] Dharmādhyakṣa: In modern psychology, Śrīla Prabhupāda, only until very recently, they did not even want to talk about consciousness. There was no mention of consciousness because it was not a scientific thing that they could observe. Prabhupāda: Scientific... It is the most crude thing. Everyone knows. Even the animal, even the ant, they have got consciousness. Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, it embarrassed them that they know everyone has consciousness but there was no way they could measure it or, according to gross science, get some factual information about it. So it embarrassed them so much, they tried to avoid the subject, hush it up, not speak about it. Prabhupāda: That is their disease. When they cannot make any solution, they avoid it. [break] ...touch the real point, that why there is death. Nobody will touch because they cannot make any solution. Why do they not have a department? Dharmādhyakṣa: Nowadays they're actually realizing their error and they're studying death more, trying to prepare people for death more. But the only thing they can tell them is, "Accept it." The only thing they can do is say, "You are going to die. So just accept it with a cheerful attitude." Prabhupāda: But I do not wish to die. Why shall I be cheerful? You rascal, you say, "Become cheerful." (laughter) "Cheerfully, you become hanged." (laughter) The lawyer will say, "Never mind. You have lost the case. Now you cheerfully be hanged." (laughter) Dharmādhyakṣa: That is actually... The whole goal of modern psychology is to make people adjust to the fact that they must stay in this material world and that if you have some desire to leave the material world, they will tell you you are crazy. "No, no. Now you must adjust more again to the material condition." Bahulāśva: They teach you to accept the frustrations of life. Prabhupāda: Why frustration? You are big, big scientist. You cannot solve? Dharmādhyakṣa: They cannot solve because they have the same problems. *Prabhupāda: The same logic, "Cheerfully be hanged." That's all. As soon as there is some difficult subject, they give up. And they speculate on some nonsense thing. That's all. This is their education. Education means atyantika*-duḥkha-nivṛtti, the ultimate solution of all unhappiness. That is education, not that after coming to some extent, "No, you can die happily." And what is duhkha, unhappiness? That is presented by Kṛṣṇa: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānu... [Bg. 13.9]. These are your unhappiness. Try to solve it. And that they are carefully avoiding. They cannot stop death, neither birth, nor old age, nor disease. And during the short period of life, birth and death, they are making big, big buildings, and next time he is becoming one rat within the buildings. (laughter) Nature. You cannot avoid the nature's law. As you cannot avoid death, similarly, nature will give you another body. Become a tree in this university. Stand up for five thousand years. You wanted to be naked. Now nobody will object. You stand here naked. Bahulāśva: They do that also. They have a fad now. It's called streakers. Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore their punishment is to become tree, to cat, dog, like that. That they cannot explain, why there is cat life, dog life, human life, rich(?) life. That they cannot do. All big questions, they have avoided. And they remain perpetually a rascal. That is their education. Mūḍha, Kṛṣṇa says, mūḍha, narādhama: "Lowest of the mankind." Human life was meant for real education. They remain the same rascal and dies very happily. Mūḍhas. [break] Dharmādhyakṣa: In the pictures of the ācāryas sometimes yourself and Bhaktisiddhānta has their left hand touching the ground. Is there any meaning to that? Prabhupāda: Touching? Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes. There's a picture, and your hand is like this. Prabhupāda: No. [break] Bahulāśva: Many students are here during the day. They come and set up the Deities and then do kīrtana and give out prasādam. Prabhupāda: Do that. Continue that. They will be infected. Bahulāśva: Yes. Prabhupāda: Infect them. Bahulāśva: Their brains will be washed. We will have big success with this new temple here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Many of these students will come and visit us. People like us very much here, at least the students. Prabhupāda: That is very good. Students are the future hope, young students. Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we should teach them to live very simply, to give up all of this complexity that is causing them so much agitation and depression and just live very simply, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is greatest common factor. Whatever he may be, if he is induced to chant, that is very good, and take prasādam. [break] ...canvas(?) pasted there? Granada? Granada. Bahulāśva: This is a hotel. Prabhupāda: Hotel. (end) Press Conference -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco Jayatīrtha: The first question which you can address yourself to on a general basis is "What is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement?" Prabhupāda: So this photograph will go on? (Cameras clicking) Jayatīrtha: Just for a few moments. Prabhupāda: Let it be finished. Otherwise, attention will be diverted. [break] Bhaktadāsa: ...photograph, we'd like to introduce the founder-ācārya spiritual master of the entire Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, who founded this movement in 1966, coming here to America from Calcutta. Now His Divine Grace has very kindly once again come to San Francisco to lead us in this holy Rathayātrā Jagannātha cart parade. And we will ask him the questions that you have written down, and he will answer those questions, like that. So the first question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is "What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that every one of us is in some type of consciousness: "I am American," "I am Indian," and, "It is my property," "America is my property," "India is my property." But we say that "Everything is Kṛṣṇa's property." Kṛṣṇa is the... Kṛṣṇa, God, when we say Kṛṣṇa, we mean God. God is the original proprietor. And He is, therefore, the supreme enjoyer, and He is everyone's friend. If we understand these three things, then we become peaceful. If all the nations in the United Nations assembly accept that everything belongs to God, then their quarrel between one nation to another nation immediately stops. But present fighting is that two hundred years ago the Americans were mostly in Europe. Now they have migrated and claiming America is theirs. So we think always that "All land belongs to God." Just like this big ocean. Who has created this ocean? Man has not created. Therefore, if God has created, then God is the proprietor. Take land, water. These are the material elements. Who has created such vast sky? That is also material. So we think in that way and try to find out the answer from authoritative sources. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Bhaktadāsa: One question is, Śrīla Prabhupāda, "How do you view the spiritual change which is coming in America?" Prabhupāda: America, or any other part of the world, we are all spiritual being. We cannot be satisfied only with the bodily necessities of life. Naturally there is question, "What I am? I am simply this body or something else?" That question naturally comes in human mind. That is very good. A dog cannot think like that. Therefore in the human life it is necessary to question: "What I am? Why I am put into miserable conditions of life? I do not want it, but it is forced upon me. If there is any remedy, what is that remedy?" These questions are very big questions. So unless you, a human being, is awakened to these questions, he is no better than animal. *Bhaktadāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what effects are the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement having on the Christian*-Judaic culture or the traditional religious culture? *Prabhupāda: We are speaking of religion. Religion means to know God and to love God. So does the Christian*-Jewish religious system deny this? Then where is the difference? If Christian religion is meant for understanding God and try to love Him, the same thing we are preaching. The same thing, Jewish religion may be preaching. And where is that religion who denies the supremacy of God? What is that religion? Is there any religion in the world who denies the supremacy of God? We say, "Religion means the laws given by God." This is our definition. Therefore we must know what is God, what are His orders, and we must carry out the order and what is the end of carrying out such orders. If we try to understand these three or four things, then we are religious. If there is no attempt to understand what is God and what is His order and how we are acting, what is the goal of our life, then where is religion? That is not religion. Religion means these four principles: What is God, what we are, what is our relationship with God, and act accordingly and achieve the goal of life. This is religion. So any religious system which does not consider all these things, that is not religion. That has been explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, kaitavaḥ. Kaitavaḥ means cheating. Religion means these things, wherever these things are there, that is religion, these enquiries. This is the subject matter of Vedānta-sūtra, where it is said, athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now the human life is meant for enquiring about the Supreme." So that is religion. Jayatīrtha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you comment on opposition to the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement in this country? Prabhupāda: No, why they should oppose? What is the reason? If they are Christian or Jewish, religious men, so we are advocating, "You chant the holy name of God," so why there should be objection? Is there any reason for such objection? What is the objection? Reporter (1): Some of the objections are that the followers of the Hare Kṛṣṇa sect are, on the streets or in the airports, are bothering people. Prabhupāda: The airport itself is a botheration, so much sound, so much accident. So why this little botheration they cannot tolerate? That means intolerance. It is full of botheration, and because we are chanting, they very much disturbed? We don't chant in the airport, but we ask people that "Here is a very good book. You will benefit. If you like, you can take." So what is the wrong there? Tell me what is the wrong? If I give you something very nice, is that, I mean to say, wrong? You read any book. We have got fifty books. You find out any fault in that. If we are distributing something, bad literature which is against the social welfare, then you can object. But you see. Bring all our books here, and you will see. Any page you open and you will find something good. Why you are denying to distribute such literature for the benefit of the people in general? What is the wrong there? Reporter (1): One of the things that people say is that the devotees are asking for donations, not just distributing books but asking for money, that that's a bother. *Prabhupāda: But he pays. If he feels botheration, why does he pay? One who feels botheration, he does not pay. But one who thinks that "Here is a nice book. All right, let me take it," why you take this botheration? If it is botheration, how they are purchasing? They are paying their money, hard*-earned money. Do you think they are bothered at the same time they pay? (laughter) Reporter (1): Yes. That's a fact. Prabhupāda: These are all manufactured things. Reporter (2): Could you tell me how much you do derive from the airport solicitations in the United States? Prabhupāda: That I do not know, but we sell, on the whole, about $300,000 worth, books, every month. Reporter (2): At airports alone? Prabhupāda: I do not know. Devotees: That's everywhere, all over the world. Bahulāśva: Here in San Francisco we distribute 1,000 of these magazines per day. Reporter (2): What is the budget of the movement in the United States annually? How much do you need to operate? *Prabhupāda: Our program is whatever collection is there, half is spent for our establishment-we have got about more than one hundred centers all over the world*-and half we spend for reprinting the books. That's all. Reporter (2): How many members in the United States? I'm told two thousand. Is that correct approximately? Prabhupāda: That they can say. Jayatīrtha: Well, our published figure is that worldwide membership is ten thousand. How much of that is in the United States isn't exactly broken down. Reporter (2): I did a story on this movement five years ago and the figure at that time was two thousand in the United States also. Prabhupāda: It is increasing. Reporter (2): It is increasing? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Definitely. Jayatīrtha: I said that the worldwide figure is ten thousand. Reporter (2): Yes, I understood. Could you tell me how old you are? Jayatīrtha: He wants to know your age, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: After one month I will be eighty. Reporter (1): Eighty? Prabhupāda: Eighty years old. Reporter (2): What will happen... Prabhupāda: I was born in 1896, now you can calculate. Reporter (2): What will happen to the movement in the United States when you die? Prabhupāda: I will never die. Devotees: Jaya! Hari bol! (laughter) Prabhupāda: I shall live for my books, and you will utilize. Reporter (2): Are you training a successor? Prabhupāda: Yes, my Guru Mahārāja is there. Where is my photo of Guru Mahārāja? I think... Here is. Reporter (2): Why does the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement not engage in social protest? *Prabhupāda: We are the best social worker. People are fools and rascals. We are teaching them nice idea of God consciousness. We are the best social worker. We will stop all crimes. What is your social work? Producing hippies and criminals. That is not social work. Social work means the population must be very peaceful, wise, intelligent, God conscious, first*-class man. That is social work. If you produce some fourth-class, fifth-class, tenth-class of men what is social work? We are producing that. Just see. Here is first-class man. They do not have any bad habit, illicit sex, intoxication, meat eating, or gambling. They are all young men. They are not addicted to all these things. This is social work. Bhaktadāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they want to know what will be the political effect of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? *Prabhupāda: Everything will be polished if Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is taken. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. If this God consciousness is spread, then everyone will be brilliantly qualified. And without God consciousness, the so*-called education as we were discussing in the morning, there is no value in it. Simply they are talking. What is the subject matter we were talking? Bahulāśva: Psychology this morning. Prabhupāda: The result is the students are falling down from the tower in disappointment. And they are protected with glass. Bahulāśva: In the bell tower on Berkeley campus students in the 60's would jump from that tower to kill themselves. So they put glass there to stop the students from jumping. So Prabhupāda was explaining that is their education, that after getting their education, they have to jump to commit suicide. (laughter) Prabhupāda: This is not education. Vidyā dadhāti namratā. Educated means he is humble, gentle, sober, full of knowledge, practical application in life of knowledge, tolerant, control of the mind, control of the senses. That is education. What is this education? Reporter (2): Are you attempting to form a college? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my next attempt, that we shall educate according to classification. First*-class, second-class, third-class, up to fourth-class. And then fifth-class, sixth-class, that is automatically there. So first-class men, there must be, at least in the society, an ideal class of men, and that is one who is trained up for controlling the mind, controlling the senses, very clean, truthful, tolerant, simplicity, full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life and full faith in God. This is first-class man. Reporter (2): Will this college be quite different from our conventional college which has a great emphasis on athletics, I mean, football teams and... *Prabhupāda: Well, an education... A highly educated man does not require athletics. He requires good brain. Just like high*-court judge, he requires a good brain, not a big gigantic body. Bhaktadāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the significance of the chant which everyone who has been around the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement has heard? What is the significance of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Chanting means the holy name of the Lord. The Lord is absolute. His name is not different from Him. So if you chant properly or improperly even, then immediately you be in touch with God. And as you become in touch with God, you become purified. So as you become purified, you know, actually you can see perfectly what is the aim of your life, how the human form of life should be utilized. These thing will be revealed. This is the process of chanting. Try to understand. Chanting the holy name of the Lord means the name of the Lord and the Lord, God, is not different. Just like the sun and the sunshine is not different. Wherever there is sun, or wherever... Sun may be 93,000,000 miles away from us, but by the sunshine we can appreciate sun. Similarly, God may be long, long away from us, but if we chant His holy name, immediately we become in contact with Him. This is the purpose of chanting the holy name of the Lord. Bhaktadāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one press man wanted to know what is this Rathayātrā festival? Why is it going on over here in the western world? Prabhupāda: Well, that is the mistake. If God is the proprietor of everything, He is also proprietor of the western world. Is there any dispute? If we say, "God is the proprietor of the western world," what is the wrong there? Is there anything wrong? Who will answer this. Jayatīrtha: Nothing wrong. Prabhupāda: So if the western world has forgotten God and He comes to remind him, where is the wrong? Reporter (3): Is that the significance, then, of the festival, to remind people of God? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is the significance. Jagannātha. Jagannātha. Jagat means the whole universe, and natha means the lord or the proprietor. Reporter (3): What is the purpose of the large carts and other things you use? Prabhupāda: Large car mean God is very great, He requires very great car. (laughter) Why should He go in a small car? (laughter) Bhaktadāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was one question. They would like to know why is it that the children are separated from their parents and sent to Gurukula? *Prabhupāda: And what is the benefit of remaining with the parents to become hippies? For training. We are trying to train first*-class men. So if, from the very beginning of life, one is trained... That is the Vedic civilization. Kaumāraṁ ācaret prajño dharmān bhāgavatān iha. "One should be trained up to become God conscious from the very beginning of life," kaumāra. Kaumāra means after five years. Up to five years the children may have all freedom. Whatever he likes, he may do. But when he is five years old, he must be under training. That is the old system. Gurukula means to send the boy, especially boy, not the girl, to be trained up at the place of the spiritual master or teacher. Just like what is that public school? They also send their small children to the public school. Montesori? What is that? Bahulāśva: Montesori school. Prabhupāda: Yes, the small children are trained up. It is something like that. Bhaktadāsa: I think you've answered this question, but he wants to know how will Kṛṣṇa consciousness affect all the religions and politics of the world at this time. *Prabhupāda: The thing is that any system you take, without God consciousness it is zero. Just like hundreds and thousands of zeros, if you put together, the value is zero. But if you put one, the value increases immediately. That one is God. So either in politics or in sociology or philosophy, religion, everywhere, if there is no God sense, it is all zero. That is going on. Therefore, despite all advancement of education, economic development, people are in chaotic condition, they are not satisfied, and everything is being tried to make it very nice. The United Nation is there, working for the last thirty years, but there is no solution because it is all zero without God. Bring God and everything will be nice. Take any question, just like economic question. There is now very acute, especially in our country. Now, the God says that "Your economic problem will be solved like this." What is that? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: [Bg. 3.14] "You produce sufficient quantity of food grains." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: "Then both the animals and man will sufficiently eat, and they will be satisfied." What is the wrong there? You must have sufficient food. Then annād bhavanti bhūtāni. And anna, producing anna, you require cloud in the sky. And that is produced by yajña. So one after another. So people must be satisfied first of all by eating sumptuously. So instead of producing food grains, you are very much busy for producing motor tires. So motor tire will not make the hungry people satisfied. So everything is there, practical, whatever is advised in the Bhagavad*-gītā. *Bhaktadāsa: Prabhupāda, one more question before we break for prasādam. That is, why do we practice bhakti*-yoga instead of jñāna-yoga? *Prabhupāda: Jñāna*-yoga is helping bhakti-yoga. But bhakti-yoga is not dependent on jñāna-yoga. So therefore we are giving directly jñāna-yoga. Bhaktadāsa: Is there any last questions perhaps? Thank you very much. (end) Morning Walk -- July 17, 1975, San Francisco *Yadubara: ...class by the inventor of the H*-bomb, the hydrogen bomb, Dr. Teller. Prabhupāda: He was inventor? Yadubara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So he taught you how to use? Yadubara: What? *Prabhupāda: He taught you how to use H*-bomb? Yadubara: No, he wasn't teaching that. He was teaching some physics. He was not a very good teacher. There were 1500 pupils in the class, students, and we would never be able to see the teacher, so many students. Dharmādhyakṣa: He recently retired, and he was lamenting how young people are shunning science now. Young people are not so interested in science. He was also very disappointed that the new scientists were not as well trained as the old scientists and did not have the same desire to serve science. Prabhupāda: What they will do by serving science? The birth, death is already there. So they are becoming saner, that "What is the use of wasting time in this way? We cannot solve any problem." That is sense. They cannot solve any... He is still alive or died? Dharmādhyakṣa: He's alive. Prabhupāda: So ask him that "Find out some bomb that you will not die. Why don't you do that?" (laughter) Yes. "People are dying, and you have invented something to die very soon. So why don't you invent something that you will never die? Can you do that? Therefore we are no more interested in science. It is a waste of time." Tell him. You go your professor. "You are regretting that young men are no more interested. So this is our reason because, after all, we have to die. Everything will be finished. Then what is the use of studying? You have not improved anything. The animals have also two legs, and two, four legs. We have got also four legs and where is the difference? You say, the Darwin's theory, from monkey, man has come, but you never shown us that a monkey has ever given birth to a man. So all this false propaganda, we are no more interested." [break] *Bahulāśva: ...Los Angeles you told Svarūpa Dāmodara that in twenty*-five more years science will be finished. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Science is already finished. He is regretting that no young man is interested. That means it is finished already. That's a fact. [break] ...is finished, so*-called religion is finished, so-called politics is finished-everything. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā [SB 5.18.12]. Because they have finished God, everything will be finished. Zero, only zero. Bahulāśva: The whole human civilization. *Prabhupāda: Where is civilization? (laughter) The mother is killing child*-is that civilization? Where is civilization? Less than doggish civilization. Dog also do not do that. And they are claiming civilization, nonsense rascals. Mother is killing child, and is that civilization? Less than dogs and cats. The dogs and cats also do not kill their children. They try to protect. You know? The cats, they carry their cubs from one place to another so that the male cat may not kill. The tiger also do that. The tiger, they also give protection to the... Brahmānanda: The rats, they sometimes do that. *Prabhupāda: Everyone. Mother's affection is natural. Now the civilized mother is killing child. This is your civilization. This is your religion, this is your science, philosophy*-everything. And for this, you have created so many big, big buildings to create some less than animals. Civilization is finished unless you take to Kṛṣṇa conscious. Now dictatorship is coming, politics. The dictator can arrest anyone without any trial and stop him. Even their own circle, the Communists... Nobody knows where is Kruschev. Indira Gandhi is doing. Brahmānanda: Even they arrest you for sleeping now. Prabhupāda: Yes. I have got enough place to sleep, and they will come, "You cannot sleep." What is this civilization? Dharmādhyakṣa: Indira Gandhi, she is taking instruction from the Russians. They are encouraging her to do all of this. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is finished. [break] ...principle, strīṣu duṣṭāsu varṇa*-saṅkaraḥ abhibavāt. Bahulāśva: You can go around this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dharmādhyakṣa: This inventor of the hydrogen bomb, he said he had no regrets about making the bomb. He had no regrets about his career whatsoever. And he felt that science was still the answer to man's problems. That's why he was lamenting so much that people were not interested anymore. Prabhupāda: So what is the problem? Real problem is birth, death. So have you any proposal? Dharmādhyakṣa: No, he has no proposal for those. *Prabhupāda: Then what is this nonsense problem? So far eating, sleeping, even the birds and beasts, they have no problem. They are eating, sleeping. What is this problem in eating, sleeping and mating? There is no problem. Why you are creating problem? You are creating problem, rascal. There is no problem. Where is the... Out of 8,400,000 species, only men are 400,000. Eight million they are all lower animals. Where is their problem? They have no population problem, they have no food problem, no quarter problem. They do not go to office, they do not start factories. So where is their problem? Eight millions, they have no problem. And out of the 400,000, the so*-called rascal civilized men, they have problems. Others they have no problem. They don't require a scientist rascal like you. (laughter) This is the... Tell them like this. If you take vox populi, so out of eight million four hundred, eight millions do not require a rascal like you. And out of the so-called civilized men, a few only, they require your service. So what is the value of your service? Others, they have no problem. Do you think they have problem, the birds and beasts? They are very freely walking from one tree to another and eating. Whatever fruits are there, they are eating. And the for mating, the female bird is always with him. Nature has given, when the birth is taken place, one male, one female, cats, dogs and birds. So there is no problem. Is there any problem? Brahmānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Then why these rascals create problem? And become a big scientist and draw a good salary, fatty salary, that's all. [break] He has invented hydrogen bomb, but does it mean the war is taking place every day? Say, after twenty years, fifty years, war will, then his service will be appreciated, by the time he will die. Brahmānanda: They have not used the hydrogen bomb yet. Prabhupāda: Even there is use, so where the use? We require daily things. [break] ...this fruit? Dharmadhyksa: These are cones. This is a pine tree, and these are cones. What are cones used for? Jayatīrtha: Seeds are in the pinecones. [break] ...cone the trees come. Prabhupāda: Let them produce one seed like that. Sow it and a big tree will come out. Where is that scientist? Millions of living beings are coming out. You are trying to kill them, and they are trying to manufacture living being in the laboratory. And take credit. Where is the credit to you? Already millions and trillions are daily coming. Befooling men. They are fools and befooling men, that's all. This is their business. Bahulāśva: The cheaters and the cheated. Prabhupāda: Cheaters and the cheated. That's all. [break] ...meditating, what is that? Who was saying? Upendra? Where is Upendra? Jayatīrtha: He hasn't come, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So meditation means "I am moving the earth, I am moving the sun..." Jayatīrtha: From that Kundalini book. Brahmānanda: Oh, in that prayer he says, "I created God." That Yogi Bhajan. In his book he says that, that that is the meditation. Prabhupāda: "I created God." Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: And you were created by dog. (laughter) Dharmādhyakṣa: That is a very big theory of the modern atheists that God is simply the creation of man's imagination in order to fulfill certain psychological needs. Prabhupāda: Then what is the cause of creation? Dharmādhyakṣa: Mother nature. Prabhupāda: So mother nature... Where is the father? (laughter) You rascal, without father, mother can give any birth? Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, it's asexual. There's some animals... Prabhupāda: No, no. So animal is their father? Where is the father? It is all right, "mother nature," but everyone knows without father, mother is useless. Jayatīrtha: It's a fact. Prabhupāda: Is there any mother who can give birth without father? So where is the father, rascal? Ask them. Bahulāśva: This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jayatīrtha: Sometimes they say that he is dead now. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you must know what is your father. A man's father is dead*-that does not mean he can say that "I have taken my birth without father." That you cannot say. Father may be dead. That is..., we shall discuss later on. First of all you have to accept that mother cannot give birth without father. Who is that father? [break] Bahulāśva: ...nature has generated everything on its own. Just like we say that Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Where is that nature, generating everything? Where is that nature? Show me. Paramahaṁsa: They give the example of the corn. Corn doesn't have to have a... They say corn produces the seeds as well as the... Prabhupāda: Then wherefrom the corn came? Paramahaṁsa: From itself. You see, they theorize that naturally... Prabhupāda: Theorize, theorize. But we say corn is produced... When the seeds are thrown on the ground, then corns are produced. Wherefrom... The corn is not dropping from the sky. Paramahaṁsa: Originally, right. Prabhupāda: We have not seen the original. Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, originally, they say, it was just some chance combination of atoms and molecules... *Prabhupāda: That is... A chance means you are a rascal. Nothing takes place with chance. That is his rascaldom. Nothing takes place. The answer is in the Bhagavad..., bījo 'haṁ sarva*-bhūtānām: [Bg 7.10] "The original seed I am." The answer is there. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. Challenge these rascals. They are cheating so many people. *Bahulāśva: Well, then they want to say that if nature can't be self*-existing, how can God? Prabhupāda: All right, nature is existing, but our proposition is that without father, how nature can give birth? If the woman is existing, the man must be existing. Just like in your country it is experienced that a girl has given birth to a child. Nobody knows who is the father. But still, it is accepted that she was pregnanted by a man, that is... You cannot say. It may be missing, but you have to accept, not that this girl is giving birth child without any union with a man. You cannot say that. Bahulāśva: Sometimes they say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that these examples are only valid because we're people and therefore we're... Prabhupāda: So you are people because you are nonsense. Say that, "Because you are nonsense. Why do you say people? You do not have any common sense even, that a mother gives birth to a child without a father." Paramahaṁsa: Actually, Prabhupāda, just one month ago I read a book in Swedish, and they actually say there's three cases in Sweden where children were born without a father. *Prabhupāda: All right, let him satisfy there. But we have no such experience. We cannot accept his theory. He may be a single man to believe that. But no sane man will believe that. But we have got this answer. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. "Prakṛtiḥ, nature, is working under My direction." In the Brahma-saṁhitā: sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvana vibharti... [Bs. 5.44]. bhuvanāni durgā, icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Icchānurūpam. The nature is working under the direction of God, Govinda. Bahulāśva: Now the scientists are studying the atom, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and they agree... Prabhupāda: No, first of all let us know what they have done. What science they have done. They are proposing all nonsense theories, that nature is producing. So even if you accept nature as supreme, then you are subordinate. You are not independent. You are under... That also I explained. Pṛakrteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra vimu... [Bg. 3.27]. Why you are thinking independent? You are being carried away by the ear, pulling, "Come here." You are thinking there is no birth, but there is birth. Every moment you are having a new life, new birth by the... You can say, "I will not become old man," but prakṛti will not allow you. You must become old man. You can say, "I will not die." You must die. So you are so dependent. Even if you accept only prakṛti, no father, you are a fatherless child, that's all right, but even the mother... You have to accept the authority of the mother. Where is your independence? You are thinking foolishly. Dharmādhyakṣa: But that is why they are engaged in science in order to master nature. They realize they are dependent. *Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. That is another foolish*-ness, and we fools shall be misled by these rascals. All future. "Yes, in future we shall do this. In future we shall do that." Post-dated check. "I give you millions of dollars by check." It is six months after. "Yes, you take it." So who is the foolish man who will take, accept a post-dated check? A foolish man may be satisfied, "Now I have one million dollars." That is another thing. Dharmādhyakṣa: Check comes back stamped, "Insufficient Funds." Prabhupāda: "No funds." (laughter) Bahulāśva: "Account closed." Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: They're always saying that the devotees are parasites. Everyone is always saying that the sādhus... Prabhupāda: That we have already answered. Just the Rockefeller. He may be also called parasite. Devotee: He is. Prabhupāda: But he has got enough money to engage you to work for me. "You work; *I enjoy." Devotees are so clever that you collect money... Just like our Kṛṣṇa dāsa collected money by doing hard work and gave me a check. Why shall I work? (laughter) I am so intelligent, I have created an organization*-check is coming without my work. So who is intelligent? Why shall I work? Bahulāśva: Better to just chant and dance. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: That is why they become mad because they become envious that we are chanting and dancing. They are working very hard. Paramahaṁsa: They won't join. Prabhupāda: Yes, they asked in Los Angeles that "How is that? You do not work and you are living so comfortably?" They are envious. And the greatest economist, Professor Marshall, he has said that if man gets money, automatically he will not work. That is the basic prin... Therefore they are creating daily new invention. Brahmānanda: For more working. Prabhupāda: They are creating, yearly, motor car to allure them to work and purchase. That is the economic, whole economic basis. Dharmādhyakṣa: There's a case in Africa when the British took over Africa, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that they had to charge the natives a tax, let's say, fifty dollars a year, and they would work... To make fifty dollars a year they would... [break] ...transcending dualities. *Prabhupāda: First*-class men. Our definition of God is: na tasya kāryaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate. "He has nothing to do." This is God. Na tasya karyaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate: "He has nothing to do." He is simply enjoying, dancing with the gopīs, that's all. Why He should go to work? Then what kind of God he is? Na tasya karyaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate. Devotee: But He also says in *Gītā* that He works too. Prabhupāda: Just to teach these rascals to work. Because here, without working, you cannot get your food. Therefore laziness condemned here in this material world. And in the spiritual world the Supreme Person is the most lazy person. (laughter) Bahulāśva: Just like yesterday you told the reporters. When they asked why such a big cart, so you told them that God should have a big car. *Prabhupāda: And where is this car? When God assumes the universal form, where is the car? You have no such car. So this car is the smallest car of all. He has got... When He showed His Viśva*-rūpa to Arjuna, so for that Viśva-rūpa where is the car? You cannot do. Devotee: When Kṛṣṇa is demonstrating work, He demonstrates in the form of Lord Viṣṇu, not in His pastimes in Vṛndāvana but more in the form of Viṣṇu, or how does He show? Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana there is no work. Outside Vṛndāvana there is killing of the demons. When He came out of Vṛndāvana, he began His business by killing His uncle, that Kaṁsa. Then so many other demons came, one after another. He had to fight. Even He had to marry by fighting. Bahulāśva: Kṣatriya marriage? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Even rākṣasa marriage. Prabhupāda: Kṣatriya marriage, without fighting, there is no kṣatriya marriage. For one prince, there are so many candidates. So they must fight between themselves and decide who is the hero. Then he will be allowed to marry. There was no such freedom: the princess are loitering in the street and you can take as many as you like. Devotee: The price was blood, huh? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Plenty blood. Prabhupāda: That is prince. They are not cheap, loitering street. Every father of the prince made some bet. Just like Arjuna got Draupadī. How difficult it was! There was a fish on the ceiling, and you cannot see in this way. You have to see. There is a water pot, and you have to pierce the eyes of the fish. Then you will get this prince. So many failure. It is not so easy job, see the eyes from the shadow, and in this way you have to pierce. It is not so easy job. Bahulāśva: You can go this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: The Satyabhāmā's father, he made a bet that "I have got these bulls, one dozen bull, very strong. And the boy who will be able to break the horns of these bulls, I will offer my daughter to him." So whole world will fail. You see, it is not so easy job. But Kṛṣṇa did it. That is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is not that husband, that he would pick out some cheap girl and make her pregnant and go away. (laughter) Citsukhānanda: I think this was the case with the Swedish book. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Kṛṣṇa married sixteen thousand wives, and each wife he gave big palaces made of marble, furniture ivory, and silk and gold, and then again He expanded Himself into sixteen thousand forms, not that one wife is crying for sixteen thousand days, no. Ready (indistinct). And that is Kṛṣṇa. That was also just to give them protection. When they were all kidnapped by Jarāsandha... No? Bhaumāsura. So when they were released, so asked them, "Go home." So in India, if a girl is kidnapped and she lives outside home for three days, nobody will marry her. That system is still now. So they said that "You are asking to go home but we will not be accepted." "Then what do you want?" "Now You marry us." "All right, come on." (laughter) Wholesale, sixteen thousand wives. This is Kṛṣṇa. We are not captivated by Kṛṣṇa, a Guruji Mahārāja. We know what is Kṛṣṇa. Then we accept He is God. He has proved Himself that He is God. Our Kṛṣṇa is not going to marry a society girl secretary. He is not so cheap. Devotee: This Guru Maharaji claims to be God, but he had to go to childbirth class to learn how to have one child. Prabhupāda: You should not talk about him, these rascals. Na tasya kāryam kāraṇam ca vidyate, na tasya samaḥ adhikaś ca dṛśyate. This is the definition of God, that he has nothing to do personally. When Kṛṣṇa kills the demons outside Vṛndāvana, He is not original Kṛṣṇa; He is Vāsudeva. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. When Kṛṣṇa is acting universally, that is Vāsudeva. Original Kṛṣṇa is always in Vṛndāvana. Jayatīrtha: If the original Kṛṣṇa is always in Vṛndāvana, then why do the gopīs and Rādhārāṇī feel separation from Him? Prabhupāda: That is here, in this material world. In the spiritual world Kṛṣṇa does not leave. Jayatīrtha: Oh. Prabhupāda: And even in the material world, Kṛṣṇa superficially has gone to Mathurā, but He has captured the heart of the gopīs. So He is not leaving. Gopīs are enjoying Kṛṣṇa by separation. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's feeling, how He is appreciating Kṛṣṇa by separation. Bahulāśva: Out here on the campus, Śrīla Prabhupāda, different people come with little carts and they sell food things. Prabhupāda: Food? Bahulāśva: Food. They get a permit. We were thinking to have a little car and sell Bengali sweets. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bengali sweet selling is not our business. We should not waste in that way. Our business is how to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. If we find such opportunity by selling Bengali sweets, then we can sell. Otherwise it is useless. You should always remember this. We are not for selling Bengali sweets or any such thing unless it is connected with preaching our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You should remember it. *Citsukhānanda: Bengali sweets means Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, different books of Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Our, what is his name? Jayatīrtha: Citsukhānanda. Prabhupāda: No, no. The boy who has taken sannyāsa, bookseller? Devotees: Tripurāri Mahārāja. *Prabhupāda: Tripurāri. He does so. (chuckles) He will sell Bengali sweet, and he will say, "You will find the formula here," so that his main business is to sell the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Hari hari bol! Jaya Prabhupāda! (end) Morning Walk -- July 18, 1975, San Francisco Prabhupāda: ...many buildings like this. Jayatīrtha: Yes. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...there is one word, sva*-langulena atithi tīrtvā sindhum. We see sometimes the dogs are swimming. (greets someone:) Good morning. If somebody thinks, "Oh, the dog is swimming, so let me capture the tail, and I shall swim. I shall cross." So similarly, those who are thinking, the so-called scientists, philosopher, will solve the problems, it is exactly like to cross over the Pacific Ocean by capturing the tail of a dog. (laughter) If one thinks that "Dog is sufficiently strong to carry me. So he is swimming, so I shall swim also," so following the dogs, capturing their tail, if one thinks that he will cross over the Pacific Ocean... Similarly, these so-called scientists, philosophers, are like dogs, and if anyone thinks that he will cross by capturing his tail, he will be baffled. [break] ...bomb scientist still living? Bahulāśva: Yes, he's still living. Prabhupāda: So, what he is doing now? Bahulāśva: Now he is retired. Prabhupāda: Oh. No more swimming. Bahulāśva: No more swimming. *Nalinī*-kaṇṭha: He's taking money from the government for his work so that he can live. Prabhupāda: Well, money is everyone is getting. The dog is also getting. Sometimes dog is inheriting the property of his master. But that does not mean he is not a dog. Paramahaṁsa: About one month ago there was a very big story in the newspapers about how this student who went to all the archives in the Washington D.C. library, and from known records he compiled enough information to construct an atom bomb. Did you hear about that? Prabhupāda: No. Paramahaṁsa: He became world famous. So they concluded that anyone who wanted to could get normal information from normal sources and theoretically construct an atom bomb. But they don't have the equipment, but they have the knowledge now. So they're proposing in that sense that any terrorist organization within the next five years will be able to invent their own atom bomb. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. Bahulāśva: He was bribing one city in Florida that "You pay me so much money or else I'm going to blow up your city." And he sent them the plans, "Here is the bomb." So they became very frightened. And when they traced the letter, they found that it was only a sixteen year old boy who had done this. [break] Prabhupāda: ...the sound of the church bell very much. It is very attractive. Brahmānanda: You want one like that for Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: They have an organ here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you play the organ and the bells chime out a melody from that tower. Prabhupāda: Which tower? Yadubara: That big tower here. They have bells up on top, and they can play different melodies. Devotee: As they fall off. [break] Yadubara: ...problem of suicide here, but in all schools all over the country. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are publicly suiciding, and others are silently suiciding. The suiciding policy is going on. Somebody manifests; somebody does not manifest. That's all. If the human life is wasted for sense gratification, that is suicidal. Because you got the opportunity of enlightenment and you live like dogs and cats, this is suicide. [break] This, what is called, hydrogen bomb manufacturer, he is thinking that he is successful in his life by discovering this hydrogen bomb. but he does not know how to save him from death. So it is suicidal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are simply expert at accelerating death. Prabhupāda: Whatever he has done, so he could not save him. He cannot save him from death. So what is the use of this scientific knowledge? If the dog is also going to die and he is also going to die, so where is the difference of his scientific knowledge? Paramahaṁsa: Coincidentally, the original purpose of the hydrogen bomb was to prevent death, to end the Second World War as soon as possible. *Prabhupāda: How they can prevent? That he does not know, how to prevent. He can accelerate. That's all. [break] ...puts before us, "Here is your problem, janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. Solve it." Where is that scientist? They avoid the real problem and take some childish problem. [break] ...not any hidden problem. It is the open problem. Kṛṣṇa puts it: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam, The real seer will see to these problems. There is no answer or solution of these problems. Where is the solution of these problems? Where is the biochemist or the psychologist or the atom bombist? Paramahaṁsa: The theory nowadays is that by the proliferation of atomic weapons, that Russia has so many weapons, China has so many weapons, the United States has so much... Prabhupāda: Everyone now. India has also. Paramahaṁsa: They're all afraid of using them. Prabhupāda: They must use it. That is nature's arrangement. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, right. History. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nature's arrangement (chuckles) that you all die. That is nature's arrangement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When someone gets some power he wants to try it out. Just like there was that demon. Lord Śiva gave him power: whoever head he touched, the head would fall off. Prabhupāda: Just like in your country there are so many cars so that a poor man like me has car always, not an inch move on leg. So because there is so many. There are so many cars. So there are so many weapons now. That must be used. That is a natural sequence. They must use it. Bahulāśva: That is why they have wars, just so they can use up the weapons. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Paramahaṁsa: The only difficulty is that if one person uses the atomic weapon, that means entire, it would be entire waste of mankind. So everyone's afraid of using the ultimate. Prabhupāda: Well, anyway, they must be used. There is no doubt about it. Therefore we can say there will be war. It is no astrology. It is natural conclusion. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Common sense. Paramahaṁsa: That'd mean total destruction. Prabhupāda: Well, total or partial, that we shall see. But they must be used. Bahulāśva: Now they like to blow them up in the ground. The scientists like to play by blowing them up in the ground. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or in the sea. Bahulāśva: They create big disturbances. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...can be solved by understanding these three items: God is the proprietor; He is the enjoyer; He is friend of everyone. They are acting just the opposite way: "I am the proprietor; I am the enjoyer; *I am the friend. Because I am God." This is their... Everyone is becoming friend*-ultimately proves to be enemy of the country because he is not friend. President Nixon took votes by pretending friendship, and later on, he proved enemy. This is going on. Everyone knows. Gandhi pretended to become friend, but he proved to become an enemy. Otherwise why he was shot down? Unless one thought him as enemy, why he was shot down? This is going on. Nobody can become friend except Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But a pure devotee is a friend to all. Prabhupāda: Because he carries the message of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is friend, and he is carrying the friendly message. Therefore he is friend. If there is a nice friend and if somebody gives information of that nice friend, he is also friend. Therefore nobody can become friend except Kṛṣṇa's representative. The material world is: "I am your enemy, and you are my enemy." This is the whole construction of the material world. So how the enemy can become friend? It is pretension, cheating. Devotee: When we go out to distribute books, we try and show the karmīs that the devotee is actually their friend also. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly. That is the real friendship work. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, Bahulāśva: So all relationships in this material world are... Prabhupāda: Inimical. Bahulāśva: Based on this enemy. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bahulāśva: Even the so*-called love. Prabhupāda: No, that is lust. That is not love. And as soon as my lusty desire is not fulfilled, then you are my enemy. [break] If we take shelter of any materialistic person, that is like to take the..., capture the tail of a dog and try to swim over the Pacific Ocean. It is like that. [break] *Nalinī*-kaṇṭha: ...ing that we should not give people anything other than Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: And what you have to give? First of all you consider what you have to give. What you have got to give? *Nalinī*-kaṇṭha: I was thinking that sometimes the devotees engage in business, selling so many things to help the temples, and you were saying that we should not do that? *Prabhupāda: If you are business*-minded, you can do that. Do business and give the result to Kṛṣṇa. [break] Brahmānanda: ...planting a tree. And here are the animals. The tiger and the lizard, fish. Prabhupāda: So what is the meaning? Bahulāśva: This is zoology. They study all the animals. Prabhupāda: Not himself? Bahulāśva: Well, they think they get an idea of man by studying the animals. Brahmānanda: Catching the tail of the dog. Bahulāśva: Of the crab. Then they come to conclude that since all the animals do is eat, sleep, mate and defend, man should also just do that. *Prabhupāda: Then why he has become man? Why not animal? Therefore the śāstra says, "One who is engaged in these animal activities, he is animal. He is not man." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma idya-dhīḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Actually, man is doing like that. In the jungle the similar animals, they flock together. This nationalism is like that. It is nothing better than that. So our defending, that "We are Americans," "We are Indians," "We are Germans"*-the same thing. Because they are animals, they have this United Nations. The animals will fight, so they are trying to compromise, "Let us live peacefully." That is not possible because they are animals, all failure. [break] Paramahaṁsa: Under the threat of nuclear warfare wouldn't Kṛṣṇa consciousness be more easy to spread? Prabhupāda: No, threat is already there. But they are so fool that they are not afraid of the threat. Threat is already there. Everyone will die. That is the problem. So who is caring for this? They are avoiding this. They cannot take any anti measures. Yadubara: So it will take a war to bring them to their senses a bit? Prabhupāda: No, war is going on. But they are so senseless that they will not come to this, so rascal. Therefore they are described as mūḍha, all rascals. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very hard to preach to these fools, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These people are so stupid, it is very difficult to preach to them. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) No, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will be... *Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are hearing from you and your books that we will die, and we must learn to face these problems as you mentioned, janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9], but still, even as your disciples, we are not so convinced. Prabhupāda: What is that? Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: Because we've been brought up in a culture where we've been taught that we will never die. Particularly in America we never even see death here. Prabhupāda: You think you will not die? Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: I know I will, but how can we realize that, come to the platform of realizing? Prabhupāda: Everyone is dying, your father is dying, your mother is dying, your friend is dying, and still if you cannot understand, then how it will be possible to make you understand? Every day you see so many people are dying. Ahāny ahāni lokāni gacchanti yamālayam iha. Every moment, every day, we see so many animals or men are dying. Śeṣaḥ sthitam icchanti kim āścaryam... But those who are living he is thinking, "I will not die." Death is inevitable but still, he is thinking, "I will not die." Therefore that is the problem. Everyone is dying, and everyone is trying not to die. This is the problem. Nobody wants to die, but everyone is dying. That problem this rascal scientist cannot solve. Therefore they are like dogs, and to catch their tail is like that. Yes. And that is the real problem. Everyone is dying, and everyone is trying not to die. Jayatīrtha: The Śaivites go down to the burning ghāṭas. The Śaivites, they go down to the place where the bodies are being burned in order to meditate on the fact that everyone is going to die. Prabhupāda: What is meditation? Without meditation even, one can understand, if he is intelligent. Jayatīrtha: Yes. So much trouble. Bahulāśva: So one must become convinced philosophically. Prabhupāda: Why philosophically? Philosophy means, at the present moment, mental concoction. We don't say that. Philosophy means to find out the reality. That is philosophy, not that "I think like this. He thinks like this. He thinks like this." That is not philosophy; *that is mental concoction, hovering over the mental plane. Philosophy is here. Kṛṣṇa says, janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam: [Bg. 13.9] "Keep always in your front that there is death, there is birth, and try to save yourself from this." This is philosophy. What is this hot air? Bahulāśva: It is coming from the heating system of the university. They have a nuclear heating system. Paramahaṁsa: Is that nuclear waste? Bahulāśva: Yes. They have a reactor on the campus. [break] Prabhupāda: ...they require so many scientist to get heat from the nuclear system, then who has created the sun to diffuse so much heat? How great scientist He is. They have no sense that who has created the sun's nuclear system, that heating the whole universe. Bahulāśva: They can't even measure how much heat is coming from the sun. Jayatīrtha: They say that the sun is inefficient because in some places it's too hot and in some places it's too cold, so therefore they have to make the adjustment by making the air conditioners and the heaters in order to make up for the sun's inefficiency. Prabhupāda: But who is getting this advantage? Paramahaṁsa: Big businessmen. Bahulāśva: Actually, the fact is that now the scientists are spending so much money on this research, but the research is only being used in their personal homes. The common people have never seen any of these great devices. This one devotee, Jayarama, his uncle is a big scientist. He has created this radio telescope. So I saw pictures of his personal home, and it must cost about $300,000. All these scientific devices he has. But the people never see those things. [break] Paramahaṁsa: ...and for all the success of scientific advancement, they have not created any love for God or their fellow man. *Prabhupāda: That is the defect. They should scientifically explain what is Kṛṣṇa. Then their science is perfect. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā [SB 1.5.22], education, tapasya, sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddha*-dattayoḥ, charity and gentleness, all good qualities. So kavibhiḥ nirūpito. Kavibhiḥ, big personalities they have decided, yad-uttamaśloka-guṇanuvarṇanam. If, by their knowledge they can establish vāsudevaḥ sarvam..., Kṛṣṇa is the origin, then their scientific knowledge is perfect. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito. Kavibhiḥ means great learned scholars. They have decided like this, yad-uttamaśloka-guṇanuvarṇanam, instead of talking all nonsense, "This is this. This is this," if they can scientifically explain that "Kṛṣṇa is the original scientist, and His brain has done this like this, like this..." That is Bhāgavata, who is the original scientist, who is original philosopher, original-everything original. Anādir ādir govindaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Govinda is the origin of everything. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Vāsudeva is the original founder. That is a fact. The origin is Kṛṣṇa, but they do not find it. Now, this sprinkling is being done, water and air. Now, who is the origin of air and water? You have combined together, utilizing as a spray, but who is the origin of air and water? You cannot manufacture air or water. You are taking advantage of it by mixing together, sprinkling, but where is the origin of water and air? Bahulāśva: The scientists now, they have been studying the different atoms. They say that the origin is what they call pure energy. And they describe that as a disembodied electrical charge. Prabhupāda: Jugglery of words, that's all. Bahulāśva: Their idea is very close to the Brahman conception, though. They think that one pure energy is pervading the whole universe. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: And it has no material properties. Prabhupāda: As soon as you accept energy, then you must enquire what is the source of the energy? Energy is produced. Just like here is energy, but it is produced under certain arrangement. Where the energy is being produced? If you accept energy, that is knowledge. Now, just like electrical energy is, what is called, generated in the powerhouse. You cannot say the electrical energy has jump over. It is being generated. Eh? Bahulāśva: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then wherefrom this electric energy is coming? Where is the generating house? You cannot say that electric ener..., so many electrical light, they have come all of a sudden, no. There is a regular generating house. So where is that generating house? What is their reply? Bahulāśva: They have none. Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: You may get some of them to admit that they don't know, but then they'll think, "No one knows." They will say, "Well, no one knows that." Prabhupāda: No, because you are rascal, therefore you cannot say that everyone is rascal. You rascal, you do not know. But we know because we are not rascals. We know. Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. So we know. You do not know, you rascal. But we know. Then what is the answer? Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: Well, I said that once to a professor, and I was dressed in plain clothes, and then he became very upset, and he said, "I thought I was talking to a book salesman, and now I find out that you're a preacher." Prabhupāda: (chuckles) He is gentleman. He has admitted. A gentleman, if he commits some mistake, he admits, "Yes." He is gentleman. And if he persists on his mistake, he is rascal. He is a rascal. So he is a gentleman. (end) Morning Walk -- July 19, 1975, San Francisco Prabhupāda: Why you went to Vṛndāvana, New Vrindaban? Guru dāsa: I associated with Kirtananda Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: And what was the result? Guru dāsa: Well, I'm a little bit stronger in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Associating with devotees is a wonderful thing. They are really doing a lot of productive service there. They just put in a new road. The palace, they're putting the arches up today. Everyone's enthusiastic there. [break] Prabhupāda: You informed him that you are taking sannyāsa? Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: What did he say? Guru dāsa: He smiled, said "Very nice." [break] ...Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Gosvāmī that, as you requested, I'd like to join his bus party. Prabhupāda: Is that all right? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Jayatīrtha: What is the position of a soul that's in a sacred tree like a fig tree? *Prabhupāda: There are also sattva*-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa is working throughout the universe. [break] ...was attempt to manufacture gold by combination of metals. They are not doing that? Jayatīrtha: No, I don't think they're doing that. Prabhupāda: Why? Jayatīrtha: They think that that's foolishness. They think that it's a legendary thing. Sudāmā: Alchemy is not looked upon as very intelligent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Scientific. Sudāmā: They've replaced it now with science, higher truth of science. *Prabhupāda: No, it is not legend. If you can mix copper, tin and mercury-this is stated in the śāstra*-you can make gold. It is not legend. The particular metals to be combined, that is stated: copper, tin and mercury. You mix, and there will be gold. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why aren't they doing it? Prabhupāda: Because they do not know the process. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but some Vedic people, some men who know the *Vedas*. In India they know. Prabhupāda: No. They make gold, some of the yogis. Brahmānanda: Yogis. You once said they swallow some mercury and then they... Prabhupāda: Yes. They swallow mercury overnight, and they pass urine on the copper, and then the copper is put into the fire. It becomes gold. There is same combination, mercury, copper. Paramahaṁsa: The only difficulty is that mercury is certain death if you eat it. Prabhupāda: So therefore you must know how to eat. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But why don't they... I'm sure the scientists could figure out an easier way than having to swallow it. Prabhupāda: But in Kaviraji, they make some medicine which is gold added by this process, makaradhvaja. Makaradhvaja, the medicine which is combination of tin and mercury, and it looks like gold. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we could become rich if we do this, our movement. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone will do, and there will be no rich men. Paramahaṁsa: Is it tin and copper? Brahmānanda: Tin, copper and mercury. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you can try. You are... Paramahaṁsa: That's brass. That's the constituents of brass. Prabhupāda: Tin and copper? Paramahaṁsa: Like bell metal. Prabhupāda: Yes. And add mercury. Paramahaṁsa: Is first the metals mixed together? Prabhupāda: I do not know that. (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: I'll give you all the profits. Prabhupāda: I can give you suggestion. This example is given by Sanātana Gosvāmī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know why they don't do it. Paramahaṁsa: They are experimenting. Prabhupāda: They have not come to success. So why not make experiment in the laboratory? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We should do it. Jayatīrtha: Perhaps Svarūpa Dāmodara can do it. Svarūpa Dāmodara is a chemist. Paramahaṁsa: I have a lot of tin and brass. Prabhupāda: Brass you have got? Paramahaṁsa: Would you like? *Prabhupāda: No, you add mercury, then give. The kāvirājī medicines, they mix mercury and sulphur, and then tin, and some other medicine, that make makaradhvaja, and it looks like gold. Svarṇa*-sindhu, the name is svarṇa-sindhu, "vermillion of gold." That is a medicine. It looks like gold. The some medicine, they mix mercury and sulphuric acid first of all, and then with some other thing. Mercury cannot be directly heated. It must be mixed with sulphuric acid. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What happens when it is directly heated? Prabhupāda: It will immediately blow. Paramahaṁsa: Sulphuric acid is also poisonous. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it blows up as soon as it's heated. Paramahaṁsa: Well, it's not a medicine then. You don't... Prabhupāda: No, they use as medicine, mercury mixed with sulphur. *Brahmānanda: There was an advertisement that a ten cent piece, a dime, that was minted ten years ago it was made with silver. So that ten cent piece today is actually worth twenty*-five cents. And the twenty-five cents piece that they make today, because it's made with copper, it's only worth ten cents. So it's better to have a ten cent piece that was made ten years ago than a twenty-five cent piece that was made today. Paramahaṁsa: In the British historical museum in London, I have seen there's a plate about this large, and half of it is pure gold, and the other half is lead. And they found this. They can't explain. It's just a straight line where they separate, and they can't explain how it was produced. So they're experimenting now to try to change lead because there's only, what is it, one proton or electron in the atom? Different. There's only like one proton difference between lead and gold. [break] Prabhupāda: ...the sky there are many big, big planets where the millions of miles made of gold. Just like desert, there is gold desert. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. We saw coming here a salt desert. There's a whole desert of salt. Prabhupāda: Where? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Utaḥ. It's called salt flats. There's a great salt lake. And the lake is gradually drying up. And for miles and miles and miles, simply salt. Prabhupāda: Even in this planet. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Sudāmā: And the water in that lake is far more salty than the ocean water. Prabhupāda: Hm, must be. Brahmānanda: You cannot sink in it, I think. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it's not possible to drown. If you go into the water there, immediately you come up to the surface. Sudāmā: So much salt. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...the ocean of milk, ocean of milk. Ocean of liquor, ocean of oil, ocean of yogurt. [break] *Nalinī*-kaṇṭha: ...in the ocean of nectar. The devotees are living in the ocean also. Nectar. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, ānandāmbudhi*-vardhanam. The ordinary ocean does not increase, but this ocean increases. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Vardhanam means increasing. (dog barks) So they keep also dog? I was thinking there was no dog. Paramahaṁsa: They're strays. Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: Many dogs live around this campus, an unusual number, a very large number. Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in what śāstra is that recipe given for gold? *Prabhupāda: In the Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa. Not recipe. The comparison is there in Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. Perhaps purposefully the recipe is not given so that you can take and misuse this. (laughter) And forget chanting. Because as soon as you get gold, then you are no more interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the infection of gold. Paramahaṁsa: But I have gold. Prabhupāda: No, you have gold. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not great quantities. Paramahaṁsa: Originally when I came to the movement I asked you this, remember? And you gave lectures on the subject, and I asked you about it. And you asked me for what purpose I wanted it. *Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't wonder you. But the gold has got such infection that if one... That is the whole world, that as soon as one has gold, he is no more interested with God. That is the infection. "Ah!" He will say, "This is meant for the poor class of men who has no gold. I have gold. I am God." You know that Kali-yuga. He was punished, that "You get out." Then he said that "Where shall I go? Everywhere is your kingdom." Then Parīkṣit Mahārāja said that "You go here, in the brothel, in the..., these four things." Striyaḥ śūna-pānā dyutāḥ yatra pāpāś catur-vidhāḥ: "Illicit sex, and slaughterhouse, and liquor shop, and gambling." Then he requested that "Instead of going so many places, you give me some place where one place will be sufficient." Then he said, "You go where there is gold. Then you get everything." Striyaḥ śūna-pānā dyutāḥ yatra pāpāś catur-vidhāḥ. Formerly, especially in Bengal, the gold merchants are taken as-that is artificial, of course*-the low class because they are rich, and they indulge in these four kinds of prohibition. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Morning Walk -- July 20, 1975, San Francisco Prabhupāda: ...our shelter is land. [break] ...Juhu? No, only some birds. (several birds are making noises, including a crow) There is crow. (laughter) Bhaktadāsa: We have the ducks and swans over there, and we have the crows here. Prabhupāda: Why they are keeping crows? Bahulāśva: "Birds of a feather flock together. They are crows so they are keeping crows." [break] Prabhupāda: They say that "You are crows. You have come to see the crow." (laughter) Will they not say like that? Bahulāśva: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...bottle? Bhaktadāsa: This is a office for the zoo. They have a little exhibition of animals and botany. It smells like skunk. [break] Prabhupāda: They capture other birds. Bhaktadāsa: Yes, right. They eat mice, and birds. Citsukhānanda: And chickens. They come flying, those chickens. Prabhupāda: [break] ...call gaj pat(?). They eat pigeons also. [break] ...not very clear. Dirty water. [break] *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...of the trees in Seva*-kuñj. Prabhupāda: Mm. [break] ...are exactly Indian. [break] They have good facilities on this lake. Citsukhānanda: They have one church here, Prabhupāda. It is Mormon church. It is not too far from here. It is very gigantic, and it's on a hill. And every Sunday they get maybe five to six thousand guests because they have spent great money on a big complex. They have a library, museum and church. This is... We could also do this sometime, make one nice Indian temple. Thousands of visitors would come, even just tourists, from all over the world. They could probably come the same way. Ours would be much better, though. Prabhupāda: Yes. Very good idea. [break] ...also very nice. Bahulāśva: The lake? Prabhupāda: Hm. Due to that lake. [break] Bahulāśva: ...but no one can swim. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Bahulāśva: That big lake in Chicago? No one can swim because of the pollution. Prabhupāda: How they polluted, such a big lake? Bahulāśva: By factories. Many factories are there. Dharmādhyakṣa: They empty all their waste directly into the lake. All the fish are dying. Prabhupāda: Here some fishy smell. [break] Bahulāśva: ...gentleman first has to understand that he's not the body. That psychologist gentleman has to understand he's not the body first. Prabhupāda: Hm. So, what did he say? *Bahulāśva: Yeah, he believes that there is soul and that you're not the body, and he's hoping that he'll be able to become more serious about studying Bhagavad*-gītā to understand that more clearly. Prabhupāda: So let him prove there is soul. That will be great service to the western world, if a scientist and philosopher, psychologist proves that "Here is soul." Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how should they set out to prove it, though? We've proved it by giving scriptural evidence. But how should a scientist do it? Prabhupāda: No, we prove it as a living and dead man, we give that proof. What is the difference between this dead man and living man? What is losing? What is missing? This is the proof. If... I so many times spoken that son is crying, "My father is gone, my father." "Where is your father gone? He is lying here. So what is gone? You have not seen it." This is the proof. Why do you cry, "Father is gone"? Father is lying here. Why do you say, "gone"? So that means what is gone, you have never seen it. Now you perceive, "Yes, something was there. Now he is gone." This is the proof. Bahulāśva: So our statements are also backed up by observation. The *Gītā*'s statements are also backed up by observation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Science means observation and experiment. That is science. You observe that this man is moving. There is something... (sound of someone calling from a distance) (Prabhupāda calls:) Invite him. You are invited come. (laughter) Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the psychologist is in ecstasy every time he speaks to you. Prabhupāda: Hmm. No, he is a good boy. Although I say, "You do not know anything." (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He didn't become angry? Prabhupāda: No. Brahmānanda: He admitted. Prabhupāda: He is good man. Bahulāśva: He has some humility. Guru dāsa: You tell everyone that and they come back for more. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Bahulāśva: So science means observation, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, observation and experiment. Bahulāśva: And experiment. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is science. [break] Guru dāsa: To make an experiment by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No. Here is experiment, just like the dead man and living man. First of all, you observe that this man is moving or this animal is moving. There is some moving force. And the experiment is when the man and animal is dead, you can understand that the moving force is gone. This is experiment. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your car is here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jayatīrtha: We can walk further if you like. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: The psychologists feel limited by the particulars means of experimentation that have already been used by other psychologists. Prabhupāda: What experiments they have made? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, these particular tests and so on that they're using. So it seems that he ought to change. Because somebody started doing that, right? I mean, they didn't always use those tests. They always change different kinds of tests and everything. Instead of being limited, he should offer a new method of observation, a new method of tests. Prabhupāda: It is simple, but because of their bad education, they cannot understand the simple thing. Bahulāśva: They want everything complicated. *Prabhupāda: Complicated. The experiment is there. Observation is there. Everything is there. And the eternity is there. Kṛṣṇa begins like reasonable gentleman, not humbug. He says, tathā*-dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], very good example, that "As in this, body is changing from this stage to this stage, this stage, this stage, step by step, similarly," tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, "similarly another body." So where is the difficulty to understand? So if this is accepted, then immediately you can accept that the soul which is changing body, he is eternal. Na jāyate na mriyate. Therefore he was never born, never died. Jayatīrtha: When Arjuna came, he was suffering so much distress, but Kṛṣṇa did not give him any psychological test to see what was the matter with him. He immediately knew it was because he was in the bodily conception of life. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, the thing is that you say that it is life which makes matter move, but the scientists, they don't accept that. Prabhupāda: Because they are rascals. How it is moving? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say it's a certain combination of matter. Prabhupāda: You make it. That means experiment. You simply observe, but you have no experiment. Therefore it is not science. Brahmānanda: You have to demonstrate knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Yes, demonstrate. You make in the laboratory that things are moving by this combination. Otherwise it is useless. Therefore two things must be there: observation and experiment, practical and theoretical. Theoretical*-something is there who is moving. Now you make it practical to see that this combination... Just like they say chemical combination. Now take the chemicals and make experiment. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, the thing is that they are now in the test tube they are making experiment, and they are putting a certain set of chemicals together and maybe some soul takes shelter of those chemicals. But the scientists say that they get the credit for it. They don't say that the soul has entered. They say, "No, we have put different elements together, and now some..." Prabhupāda: No. Bahulāśva: They have never done that successfully. Prabhupāda: And even they are successful, what is credit? So many living entities are coming every minute, and if after thousand years, they can create one ant, so what is the credit? (laughter) Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, now the impersonalists, they will accept that there's something in that body that's different than matter, but they won't admit that that's a person. They say that it's just some type of energy force, or they call it consciousness. Prabhupāda: But we haven't got to hear from them. You take lesson from Kṛṣṇa. *Nalinī*-kaṇṭha: Are they better situated than the person who doesn't accept it at all? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Nalinī*-kaṇṭha: The impersonalists that denounce Kṛṣṇa, are they better than the person who is ignorant of eternity? Prabhupāda: Who is he ignorant of? Bahulāśva: The common man. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are the impersonalists better than the gross materialists? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Śaṅkara's philosophy. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. That is his philosophy. Brahman means that spirit soul, that is fact. And this material external, that is false. A little advanced than the Buddha philosophy. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how is it that they describe the soul, the impersonalists? Prabhupāda: Because they have no eyes to see. They say that "The body is finished. Now..." Gatākāśa potakāśa. They give the example, just like within the pot there is sky, and outside the pot there is sky and when the pot is broken, the within sky mixes with the outside sky. Bahulāśva: So we say that within the pot, or the body, there is consciousness, and that remains eternally individual. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said by Kṛṣṇa. It is not our imagination. Bahulāśva: So the eternal characteristic of the self, then, is that he is pure consciousness. Prabhupāda: Pure consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He knows that "I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." That is pure consciousness. Bahulāśva: And therefore His servant. Prabhupāda: Yes. Part and parcel means servant. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bahulāśva: Would you like to walk further, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. What is the time now? Bahulāśva: It's twenty to seven. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let us go. Jayatīrtha: It's time to go. (end) Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco Prabhupāda: ...yoga. Bahulāśva: This is that Yogi Bhajan. *Brahmānanda: What does it say? "Kundalini*-yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan is a highly developed science of awareness. Join with us early in the morning to revitalize the body, mind and spirit. Daily practice of kundalini-yoga under the guidance of a teacher helps you release the highest potential within the individual." Devotee (1): One of his devotees has recently said that if he really wanted spiritual knowledge that they should come to you. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (1): One of Yogi Bhajan's devotees has said that Yogi Bhajan recently said if you really want spiritual knowledge to come to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (2): That's intelligent. Prabhupāda: That Mahesh Yogi also says like that. (chuckles) And that, what is called, Satchitananda? He also says that. Devotee (1): They're wise men. Bahulāśva: We have a display over here in the window of your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bahulāśva: Would you like to see? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Very good. So they are selling? Bahulāśva: This is just a display for the students to see, like advertisement. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Bahulāśva: Yesterday many people bought your books. *Brahmānanda: And it says here, "Birth, old age, disease and death." What is this? "The Bhagavad*-gītā we find information that besides earth, water, fire, air, space as well as the mind, intelligence and false ego, there exists a superior energy form. That superior energy is called ātmā, the self. There is an obvious difference between you and the ground. That factor that distinguishes the animate from the inanimate is consciousness. That consciousness or awareness of being is proof of the existence of the self." Prabhupāda: Very nice. This is the library? No. Bahulāśva: No, just student union. Around three thousand dollars of books were sold yesterday. Prabhupāda: Oh. And sweets? Bahulāśva: Oh, around five thousand. (laughter) The tongue is most voracious. Yadubara: I talked to one boy yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he was there at the festival because he had found your books in the school library. And he said now he was saved. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] Kṛṣṇa dāsa, some scientists say that there is no life in the other planets, and some scientists said there may be. So who is correct? Paramahaṁsa: Well, didn't the Yamadūtas... You stated in your lecture yesterday that the Yamadūtas said that what is truth is what is in the *Vedas*. So I assume from the Vedic knowledge that there is life on other planets. Logically speaking also. Prabhupāda: Yes. How can you say there is no life? Paramahaṁsa: But the scientists are saying, though, that the nearest star to our... You know, they consider the sun a star. And that the nearest star to ours is four light years away. Which means that it's... They do not believe that there's life in this entire solar system, in the planets nearest us, the moon, Venus, Mercury, Mars, Neptune, Jupiter. They assume it's either too cold... *Prabhupāda: No, we say in the sun there is life. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. "I spoke this Bhagavad-gītā science to the sun-god." So? Sun*-god is dead stone, and Kṛṣṇa spoke to him? Bahulāśva: They're very convinced, though, that they went to the moon, the scientists. Devotee (3): I was going to ask you, Prabhupāda, is that the moon planet that we see, is that the same moon planet that's mentioned in the śāstras? The same planet? Prabhupāda: Yes, same one. But the moon planet where they went, that is a dark planet. That is not moon planet. *Kṛṣṇa-dāsa: My father is a graduate of Berkeley and he majored in astronomy and chemistry. And he's an atheist. And his logic is is that-it's very empirical*-is that if there's other life, they have to have bodies similar to ours. Prabhupāda: Why? Paramahaṁsa: So it's impossible to have a life on the sun because we could not live there. That's the empirical way of... Prabhupāda: You cannot live there; therefore there is no life. Paramahaṁsa: That's what they assume. Prabhupāda: But you cannot live in the water. Why there is life? Paramahaṁsa: Well, yes. That is fish. Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense, "empirical"? There are millions of living entities within the water, but you cannot live even for an half an hour. Paramahaṁsa: But to scientific knowledge there's no life in fire. Prabhupāda: Why not? Fire is also one of the elements like water and earth. So if there is life in the water, life on the earth, why not in the fire? What is this logic? Bahulāśva: Actually, everything is burning. Even this body is also on fire. Prabhupāda: No, the material ingredients, five elements... Out of the five elements, fire is one of them. So if in the four elements there are life, why not in the fifth? How do you say? That is their ignorance. Devotee (3): You say even in the śāstra, Prabhupāda, that there's so many living entities in this body. It's evident. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. As soon as the body is dead, so many living entities will come out. Why? How it is possible? How these living entities are coming? What is the reason? You say the body is dead, so why from the dead body other living entities coming? Paramahaṁsa: It becomes food for other living... It becomes food. Prabhupāda: Food or whatever it may be, but the body, the ingredients of the body are complete to get life. You cannot say some chemical is missing. If it is missing, then how so many living entities are coming? There is nothing missing; everything is there. You cannot say, "missing." What is that "missing"? You do not know. That is soul. Paramahaṁsa: When I first joined the movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I used to listen to your lectures and then go talk with my father. And he would argue with me, and I would find a question and come back and ask you and find the answer and go back and argue with him. But the thing I always came up against is that if he assumes that there's life on other planets or that there is a supreme source, a supreme energy or God, then it destroys his entire life's work, his study. Prabhupāda: Then they are fools. They should stop all this education. This university should be broken. (laughter) Because they are producing only fools. That's all. They should stop this education. Bahulāśva: Donate all these buildings to you. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. The buildings will remain there, but they will be finished. What is this education? They do not know what is God, what is soul, and what is the meaning of education? Simply bodily concept of life like cats and dogs, so what is the use of education? They remain cats and dogs. That is no value. Bahulāśva: They cannot live happily either or peaceful. Prabhupāda: Because they are, basically they are mistaken, how they can be happy? Basically they are mistaken. How you can be happy? They do not know what is happiness. Paramahaṁsa: As a matter of fact, that's the same thing my father said. He says that "Because you believe in God, he says you don't have to fear death." He says, "But I have nothing to look forward to." Prabhupāda: So that is also the position of a stone. So you better remain a stone, but I am life. The stone does not believe in anything and still it is happy. So you remain a stone. I am not stone; I am life. *Jayādvaita: There's a verse in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta that without Lord Caitanya, there is no life. Acaitanya. Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. Acaitanya, yes. Bahulāśva: So this dark planet, then, is closer? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bahulāśva: This dark Rahu planet, this is closer? Prabhupāda: Rahu, yes. Rahu is between earth and sun. Moon is above sun. Devotee (3): So it is bigger than the sun? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. The size is there in the Bhāgavata. Paramahaṁsa: In Stockholm, Prabhupāda, in the museum, they have a whole room, and in the room there is all these... There's American flag and Swedish flag, and there's a whole exhibit with one teeny little rock about as big as my finger nail that the Americans gave the Swedes. It's supposed to be a rock from the moon. And they said in it that it's exactly as any kind of rock that you'll find on earth. (laughter) Prabhupāda: They say? It is simply cheating. They found this in Arizona, somebody... (laughter) And laboratory work. Bahulāśva: I have been trying to arrange a meeting between Your Divine Grace and that astronaut. He was going to come to Rathayātrā, but he had to go to Florida for some space project. Prabhupāda: What does he say, astronaut? Bahulāśva: He says that... His name is Edgar Mitchell, and he was one of the men who went to the moon. But we talked, and he said... He thinks he has gone to the moon. But he said that when he was there, he had a religious experience, and he felt that there was a God. When he went to the moon, he had this experience. So when he came back, he was telling all his scientist friends what his experience was. So they became very afraid, and they kicked him out of the space project. They thought he had become a fanatic, religious sentimentalist, so they kicked him out. So now he has opened up an institute for noetic sciences or... It is some Greek word. It means like spiritual sciences. He wants to prove to the scientific world that there is God. Prabhupāda: That's nice. He is good. *Bahulāśva: So we gave him a copy of Easy Journey to Other Planets and Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, and he's been reading that. He is friends with that other scientist, Wernher Von Braun, who gave that speech also saying that he feels that there is definitely God by his scientific studies. We also wrote him a letter, but we haven't gotten any response. Svarūpa Dāmodara prabhu wrote him also. Prabhupāda: What he is? Bahulāśva: He is a very big scientist for Fairchild. He started the space project. Harikeśa: He invented those rockets in Germany. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, he was actually captured. He used to work for Hitler. He invented the V-2 rockets that bombed London, or was one of them. Bahulāśva: He gave a very nice talk in San Francisco. Prabhupāda: Oh. About? Bahulāśva: He said that from his scientific studies he is feeling frustrated. So he made a public statement that he is going to give them up for studying God. He says that he feels that everything indicates in the universe that there must be a supreme intelligence behind the workings of the universe. Prabhupāda: Very intelligent man. He is intelligent. As soon as one denies the existence of God, immediately he comes within the category of four classes of men: sinful, rascal, lowest of the mankind and knowledge taken away by māyā. Bahulāśva: The four classes that never surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Or do not admit the existence of God. Paramahaṁsa: To assume that there is no God is basically nonscientific. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Because they're denying an entire field of study. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they are rascals. Yadunandana: The reason why the western world is so much involved in science is because the religions that have been presented here in the West have cheated the people economically... Prabhupāda: No, why cheated? The Christian religion says God created. Devotee (4): But the followers do not practice this idea. The original idea is very nice. *Prabhupāda: No, they became over*-intelligent by so-called education. *Bahulāśva: Over*-intelligent? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: How is that? *Prabhupāda: Over*-intelligence means rascal. Intelligence is good, but over-intelligence means rascal. *Bahulāśva: How does that happen, when he becomes over*-intelligent? *Prabhupāda: Over*-intelligent, it is sarcastically said. More than intelligent. Bahulāśva: Oh. Speculative. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (4): What I meant to say is that the directors of these religions like the Pope and so many things, they themselves have committed so many abominable activities that people have said, "Well, why should we stay with religion? These religious leaders themselves are eating meat, they have prostitution, they are cheating the people, taking their money, living very nicely..." Prabhupāda: But that is not religion. Why you accept the Pope as religious? Devotee (4): No, we don't accept... Prabhupāda: You reject. You reject. Come to us. Why do you accept these rascals as religious? That is your fault. Why should you stick to them? They cannot teach what is real religion, so let us give you. Paramahaṁsa: In Germany they say that's throwing the baby out with the dirty bath water. Prabhupāda: Throwing? (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: They wash the baby, and the water's dirty. So they throw the water out with the baby. Prabhupāda: Throwing out the baby? Devotee (4): With the bath water. *Paramahaṁsa: Well, they're assuming because there's some irreligion amongst the so*-called religious leaders, therefore they reject all religion. Prabhupāda: No. Paramahaṁsa: Scientists, I mean. Prabhupāda: No, why? Because you have received some counterfeit coin, therefore you should reject all coins? Paramahaṁsa: That's the logic. Prabhupāda: That is not logic; that is foolishness. Paramahaṁsa: Right. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. You must be experienced, that "There are counterfeit coins. I shall be very clever, intelligent, to see before accepting any genuine coin." That should be your conclusion. Not that I have met one or two counterfeit coins, therefore I conclude there is no genuine coin. Bahulāśva: Just like in the old days when they would get a gold coin, they would bite it with their teeth to see if it was real gold, make a test. [break] Baradrāj: ...false, they must also conclude that there's something true. Because that is relative. [break] Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the basis for scientific rejection of religious dogma is that in the Medieval era in... *Prabhupāda: Religious..., not dogma. Just like in Christian religion it is said that "God created this." So this is a fact, but it is not properly explained. And neither the followers understood how to explain, third*-class men. So therefore they should accept, that's all. They should accept. Just like one thing, sweetmeat. A child is tasting. So if the child wants how it is made, so he has no power to understand. Therefore he should be simply ordered, "You simply eat. That's all." So in the Bible it is like that. And therefore it is strictly ordered that "You should follow." The things are there but they are not explained because they were third-class men. Otherwise why the commandment was, "Thou shalt not kill," and they killed first of all Jesus Christ? So what class of men they were? All third-class, fourth-class men. How they will understand? Now people have become, by education, advanced... Bahulāśva: We should go this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because they have these sprinklers on here. *Prabhupāda: Now they should come to big dictionary. This is Vedic. The Vedic truth is there, but it is not properly explained because the men were fourth*-class. Now the people have become advanced. They should take to Vedic literature. Then they will understand how God created. But it was not explained because the people, they were living in the desert and shepherds and all fourth-class, fifth-class men. And now they, these first-class men, all advanced men, they are trying to adjust the tenth-class ideas, and therefore they are becoming rejecting, that "It is all useless." Now they should come to first-class understanding in the Vedas. Paramahaṁsa: As a matter of fact there's a very famous quote from Christ... Prabhupāda: I think Christ said that there are many things to be spoken but... Paramahaṁsa: "My father's house has many rooms, but I cannot tell you of it now." *Prabhupāda: Because they were fourth*-class, fifth-class men. They will not understand. Therefore it is taken, "dogmas." The modern students, they are advanced in education, and these things are not explained. And besides that, their education is atheistic. Therefore they are trying to reject religion. *Nalinī*-kaṇṭha: They say you cannot study Veda because Christ said that there is no other way than himself. *Prabhupāda: Because they are fourth*-class, unless he says like that, how they will stick? They were not intelligent men. Just like Lord Buddha also said, "There is no God." "There is no God," but he is God himself. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the followers of Lord Buddha are less intelligent than the followers of... Prabhupāda: "Less" not. They are atheist class. So they will not understand what is God. So he said, "There is no God. You just hear me and become nonviolent." So his idea was, "Let this rascal first of all become nonviolent. Then they will be pure, and then they will understand." *Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Nectar of Devotion you explain that there are three classes of devotees. And you say that the third*-class devotee, he has belief but he cannot explain or give any support. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Bahulāśva: This is like Christian...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: They believe that there is God. Prabhupāda: If you believe there is God, that is sufficient. That is sufficient. But now they, being advanced in education, they want to know how God is there. There is no explanation. Therefore they reject it. Jayādvaita: They try to explain scientifically what's in the Bible. Prabhupāda: That science is rascaldom. So how they will be able? Because the whole thing is rascaldom, how they will explain God? Those who are actually advanced scientists, they have accepted. "There must be God," they say. Jayadwaita: But otherwise the rascals, they try and explain scientifically. They come to the conclusion... Prabhupāda: Yes, what is their science? Whole science is rascaldom. Just like they have never seen what is there in the planet, and they are concluding, "There is no life." You see? So they are all rascals. Maybe one or two like that gentleman who says that "No, there is God. There is grace." Bahulāśva: So Prabhupāda, you said belief is enough? Prabhupāda: Yes, for the noneducated rascal, belief is the... That is required, blind belief. That is good. Bahulāśva: Blind faith. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: But to become an advanced devotee, do you have to have knowledge? *Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, catur*-vidhā bhajante mām... Jayādvaita: Janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna. Prabhupāda: Sukṛtinaḥ arjuna. Jñānī... What is called? Devotee (5): Ārto jijñāsur... Prabhupāda: Ah. No, this first word, distress, ārtaḥ, ārtaḥ. Artaḥ, arthārthī, jñānī and jijñāsuḥ. So some innocent man, when he is distressed, he has belief in God. So he approaches God, "God, I am distressed. Kindly help me." He is simply on faith. That is good. And jñānī means he wants to know actually what is God. Then his enquiry is advancing. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes philosophers make a distinction between knowledge and a belief. They say you can believe in something, but that doesn't mean that you necessarily know that thing which you believe in. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's fact. Therefore for the neophytes, less intelligent, they should believe. That is the only way, viśvāsa. So generally mass of people they are not so educated. They should believe. Devotee (6): It says in the *Bhāgavatam*... *Prabhupāda: Therefore in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said that viśvāsa śabde śudṛdha niścaya. Śudṛdha niścaya, kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. Śraddhā, śraddhā. Śraddhā means faith. So in Christian science also, there is state, faithful. So this faith may be blind, but that is required. Paramahaṁsa: Like a child. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śraddha-śabde viśvāsa. Śraddhā, faith, means believing firmly. That is śraddhā, or faith. There is no question, "Yes." Śraddha-śabde viśvāsa. Therefore we have to believe in the Vedas. Vedas also says like that. That example I give sometimes, that cow dung is stool. In one place it is said stool is impure; in another place it is said cow dung is pure. Now, one may argue, "What is this, contradiction?" But you have to believe it. That is Veda. And that is actually being done. So without faith, you cannot make advance. The skeptics, they have no faith. Therefore they are lost. You must have faith. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? What is that ingredient or what is that thing which causes faith to develop in one? From someone becoming... Prabhupāda: Purity. Purity. The more you become pure, the faith is firm. Nārāyaṇa: So faith comes from previous pious activities? Prabhupāda: No, may not be previous activity. You believe the authority, spiritual master. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That comes from purity, faith. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As purity develops, one becomes more faithful. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That purity is said, ādau śraddhā: "Beginning is faith." Now tato sādhu*-saṅgaḥ: "You mix with faithful men." Then it will develop. Otherwise, if you take simply initiation and then sleep, then faith will be lost. That is happening. Therefore it is said, adau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅgaḥ. You accept faith, maybe blindly. Now you make further progress by mixing with advanced devotees. Then it will remain fixed. Otherwise you will loss. Bahulāśva: Faith is fixed by knowledge? Prabhupāda: No, faith may be blind, but it increases. If you stick to faith and follow the principles, then it will increase. Svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Just like... Yasya deve parā bhaktiḥ yathā deve tathā gurau. So if you have got faith in spiritual master then you will advance. If you have no faith, then it will be lost. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And unless one is pure, he will not have faith. Prabhupāda: No. Paramahaṁsa: Isn't it is also like a child? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Everyone is child. So the father says, "Do this. That's all." Like "Write 'A.' " He does not know what is A. But the father says, "You write like this." That will increase his education. Paramahaṁsa: But doesn't it come first because of trust? Prabhupāda: Yes, trust. Without trust, without faith, you cannot advance even an inch. So therefore it is required. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Prabhupāda, what are the symptoms of purity? Prabhupāda: Just like I do not know where this pathway goes. But you show me, "This way." So without faith, how can I go? If I have no faith, then I cannot move even an inch. I believe, "Yes, he is all right. Let me go." This is faith. I do not know whether it is going, which way it is going. So without faith, you cannot move an inch. So faith must be there, either it is true or blind. Yadubara: So everyone has faith. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone has. Therefore the direction should be taken from the perfect, and with faith you will make progress. *Nārāyaṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, but Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that wherever one puts their faith, He gives them the steadiness to worship in that way. So how come so many people, they put their faith in all these false gurus or people that impose themself as ones who are in knowledge and then they become fooled? Is this previous activities? Sinful activities? Prabhupāda: What is that? Jayādvaita: You explained that in your lecture yesterday, that Kṛṣṇa is in the heart and He is giving direction to remember or to forget, that sometimes He is directing to remember Him, sometimes to forget Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if you have no faith, then Kṛṣṇa will not give you instruction. When he is faithless, he will not make progress. Stops. Nārāyaṇa: But people are putting their faith in so many different places. Prabhupāda: "So many" means he has no faith in anything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: As soon as you say, "so many," that means he has no faith. He is faithless. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? If you say that purity is required for faith to develop, what are the symptoms by which one can be said to be pure? Prabhupāda: That is... Just like "Don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this." So if you have faith, you will not do it. But because you have no faith, you will do it, and therefore you will go to ruin. Yadubara: The karmīs have faith that the sun will come up every day. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: So that is actually faith in the workings of the Supreme, Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: What is your idea? I do not follow. Everyone knows the sun will appear, faithless or faith. Yadubara: Is that faith? Prabhupāda: Not faith. It is fact. He is seeing every day. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the scientists will argue... *Prabhupāda: That is faith*-means on knowledge. So faith with knowledge is very good. But beginning must be faith, with knowledge or without knowledge. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the scientists will argue that Kṛṣṇa consciousness won't be scientifically accepted if it's just based on... *Prabhupāda: The scientists, how they can argue like that? Therefore they are rascals. First of all they explain something theoretically: "Hydrogen, oxygen*-mix together it becomes water." It is faith. Then it is practically shown in the laboratory. So faith is the beginning. Theoretical knowledge means faith. Then experiment. Baradrāj: The Vedic knowledge is also that way, very scientific. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: So first we hear from the guru that Kṛṣṇa is God, and we have faith in that, we chant, and then we come to know. *Prabhupāda: As you become purified, then your faith becomes fixed up with knowledge. Therefore that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam: [Bg. 7.28] "One who has finished his sinful life, he can become a devotee." Otherwise one cannot. First of all, beginning in faith. Then, by following the process, he becomes completely sinless. Then he, full knowledge. And so long he will be sinful, the things will be not properly manifested. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam. Baradrāj: So knowledge is not necessary for faith but faith is necessary for knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore devotee, without any knowledge he becomes devotee. That faith, only faith. The devotee advances. Jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukī. Later on, they become automatically full of knowledge because they have strong faith. That is also stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Teṣām evānukampārtham aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ nāśayāmy: [Bg. 10.11] "Because he is faithful, therefore I help him how to get knowledge." Again you come to that. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. Everything is there. *Jayādvaita: Your lecture yesterday was so nice, Śrīla Prabhupāda, everything, so many ideas from Bhagavad*-gītā, all explained and put together so nicely. Paramahaṁsa: Blind faith is the belief that little... Prabhupāda: Blind faith, without... That I have already explained. Immediately, why do you forget? He shows me, "Prabhupāda, come this way." So I have no faith. Why shall I go? Then I have stop here, finished, movement finished. So you have to keep faith blindly. And if the man who is giving direction, he is perfect, then your faith will make you advanced. But if you go to a rascal cheater and if you have faith, blind faith, then you are lost. Paramahaṁsa: Just like that little rock that I saw, that it's from the moon. Now that is blind faith. Prabhupāda: Yes, blind faith. Paramahaṁsa: In the wrong thing. Bahulāśva: Socrates also, he was discussing epistemology, and he said that faith or belief is as good as knowledge for all practical purposes. Prabhupāda: Yes. The same thing: the child has no knowledge, but he has faith in his parents, and he believes what his parents says. Then he is making progress. Bahulāśva: This way. Prabhupāda: I have faith in you. [break] Now, I give sometimes this example. Just like you go to a barber shop, and you put your neck like this, and he is with the razor. So unless you have faith, "No, he is good man. He will not cut my throat," how can you do so? So faith is the beginning. If you have no... If you say, "No, I have no faith in you," then you cannot be cleansed. Baradrāj: That example became very clear when we went to India. (Prabhupāda & devotees laugh) Because the barbers are so, they look like they could cut your throat. Bahulāśva: You have to have a lot of faith. Prabhupāda: He can do that, but you must have faith. Otherwise no shaving. So many... Suppose you are going to some unknown place. Now we are purchasing, paying two thousand dollars, ticket. But where is the guarantee that you will go there? You are paying first money, but there is no guarantee that you will go there. Then how do you get the ticket? How do you get on the plane unless, without faith? So faith, without faith you cannot move an inch. It must be there. [break] ...believe, "No, no, this ticket is issued by the Pan American. They are good company, and so many people are going. So I will go also." That's all. So faith. You never went there, neither you know whether it will be possible to go there. But still, you have to do. That is faith. [break] Baradrāj: The airplane may crash. Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many things. There is no guarantee that you will reach there. But still you have to purchase ticket. You have to get on the plane. That is faith. Sudāmā: And all the passengers have to have faith in the captain of the plane. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the faith must be there. Without faith, you cannot go. Paramahaṁsa: So actually that's what scientific knowledge, at least the atheistic science, is based upon, that on one hand the theists believe in faith, that there is a Supreme. But the atheist believes that "Undoubtedly there cannot be because we have not seen one." Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. The same example can be applied, that you have not gone there. How can I pay you? First of all let me go there. Then I shall pay," he may say. But he will, "Get out. First of all pay. Then you come on." (laughter) That's it. *Citsukhānanda: When we were first coming to this movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we opened Bhagavad*-gītā. Myself, I read. I said, "I don't understand this." So I began to clean the floor, wash the dishes, cut the vegetables... Prabhupāda: Yes, very good. Citsukhānanda: And then by your... Prabhupāda: Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau [Brs. 1.2.234]. By service only. You can understand God simply by service. There is no other way. And the faith begins from the tongue. You see? Therefore it is advised that you chant and take prasāda. Then faith will come. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. It begins... The faith begins from the tongue. "Why?" People will be surprised. "Faith must begin from the mind, from the eyes, and why it is said tongue?" They do not know. That is also faith, that "Simply engaging tongue in the service of the Lord, I shall understand." So this is also blind faith. But actually it is happening. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take{īūl prasādam. That's all. Yadubara: So most of these people, they are so ignorant that we should try to engage them in works of devotion rather than explain... Prabhupāda: This is devotion: "Please come here, chant with me, and dance with me, and when you are tired, take prasādam." That's all. Jayādvaita: They had five thousand dollars worth of faith yesterday in the prasādam. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. So whatever is said in the śāstra... Now, they say, "Faith begins from the tongue." "No," it is surprising. How is that? But it is a fact. Baradrāj: So to encourage their faith, therefore the sādhu must set example of purity. *Prabhupāda: Sādhu śāstra guru vākya, tinete koriyā aikya. Guru*-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, ār nā koriho mane āśā **. Don't go anywhere else. Take this faithfully, the orders of guru. You are singing daily. Ār nā koriho mane āśā. This is faith, strong faith. And that is described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, śraddhā-śabde-viśvāsa śudṛdha niścaya. Viśvāsa, firm faith. That is śraddhā. Faith means to believe strongly. That is faith. Paramahaṁsa: So actually, in regards to my father or atheists or scientists in general... Prabhupāda: They are faithless. Paramahaṁsa: They will never believe. Prabhupāda: They are faithless; therefore they will never make any progress. Their first principle is sacrifice. And in the śāstra it, ādau śraddhā: "First of all faith." And these rascals, they have no faith. Therefore they do not make any progress. And Rūpa Gosvāmī says, ādau śraddhā: "Begin with faith." So they cannot realize, condemned, because Kṛṣṇa will withdraw the knowledge. Mattaḥ smṛtir apohanaṁ ca. So Kṛṣṇa will say, "Oh, this rascal is faithless. All right, make him more faithless. He will never understand." That is atheist. Baradrāj: What is hope for them then? Prabhupāda: To become faithful, surrender. That is. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "You rascal, surrender. You are not faithful; therefore you are condemned. You surrender first. Then next thing." So unless he becomes a surrendered soul, there is no hope. There is no hope. He will never understand. Yadubara: What is the best way, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to instill a little faith? How do we instill some faith in these people? *Prabhupāda: Little faith... Therefore you associate. Just like we are inviting this morning lecture. Coming, coming, coming, coming*-faith will come. Yadubara: They will not come. Prabhupāda: They will not come. Then he is condemned. Let them remain animals. If you don't go to school, there is no question of education. Where is the question of education? One must go to the school with faith that "I will be educated." That is required. Yadubara: But if they take some prasādam, that will help them? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your mercy, that you are... He is faithless rascal. "All right, you take prasādam. That will help you." Yes. Paramahaṁsa: You may be pleased to know that Karttikeya... He said he's looking forward to going to Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise why he is coming again? (chuckles) There must be some faith. Sudāmā: I spoke with him the other day, and he said now he's getting a degree, but now he does not know what to do with it. So he sees that all of his activity of going to school and getting degrees is useless waste of time if there's no connection with Kṛṣṇa. Citsukhānanda: Actually, nobody could leave your lotus feet, Prabhupāda. Once they've come and tasted this bliss of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, nobody could leave. Everyone comes back. Sometimes we become confused a little, but nobody can leave you. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. [break] ...Mukunda, Mukunda, or Murāri? Mukunda. He was going everywhere. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected him. "Don't let this rascal to come here." You know that? Mukunda. (indistinct) [break] ...api sarveṣāṁ mad*-gata āntarātmanā, then? Devotees: Śraddhāvān bhajate yo mām. Prabhupāda: Ah. Śraddhāvān, That is required. If he has no faith, then he remains in darkness. Devotee (6): If we save the common people by giving them prasādam, how can we save the impersonalists? Prabhupāda: That will come later on. [break] ...ists will not come. They will never come because they do not believe in the personal feature of God. Unless very hungry, he will not come because he does not believe in prasāda, does not believe in God. Bahulāśva: Just like yesterday those impersonalists wouldn't come on the stage. When they saw your opulent vyāsāsana and so many devotees offering your āratik, they realized if they came to the stage, they would have to sit at your feet. Therefore they wouldn't come. This one Swami Satchitananda... I have a friend who's a member of his movement. So this yogi told him that if you want to know how to receive the spiritual master you should go watch the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees when they greet their guru at the airport... Then you will learn what is the proper way to... Prabhupāda: Who says? Bahulāśva: Swami Satchitananda told him that. (laughter) Yadubara: He cannot give instruction, so he has to... Prabhupāda: No, he was rejected. But then appealing, then he was reinstated. Bahulāśva: They want the respect, but they cannot command the respect. Prabhupāda: Yes, they... He was found implicated with some woman. Bahulāśva: You explain, Prabhupāda, that the impersonalists have to again fall down to material activities. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bahulāśva: So this Satchitananda, before he became yogi, he was an engineer. So in his spare time*-I was asking this boy, "What does he do? What is his life like?" I was wondering what he lived like. So he goes to bed at 8:00 at night, and no one sees him until 8:00 in the morning. So I asked, "Was he asleep?" So he said no, that he's in some trance. And then during the day he works on cars. He collects old automobiles, old classical cars, and he takes them apart and puts them together for a hobby. Prabhupāda: He cannot give up his old habit. Bahulāśva: No. He cannot give up the engineering habit. Baradrāj: About this Yogi Bhajan also, when I was in Delhi ... Prabhupāda: Delhi? Baradrāj: Yes, in Delhi, there was one cloth merchant there. And he asked me, he said, "Do you know this Yogi Bhajan?" I said, "Yes, he is very famous." He said, "Oh, he is my cousin. We used to be in the cloth business together. And he could not make enough money, so he decided to go to America." But his experience was, he was a train engineer actually, train. Prabhupāda: Who? *Baradrāj: This Yogi Bhajan. So he said that he tried to get a job with one of the railroad companies, but because he was Sikh-he was wearing long beard and hair*-they would not give him a job. They said, "You must shave up first." He said, "No, I cannot do this." So finally he decided that "Not only will I not shave my beard and hair but I will make hundreds of disciples..." [break] Sudāmā: ...Prabhupāda, either of those associations, which is the highest? Prabhupāda: Both are equal. Sudāmā: Both are equal? *Prabhupāda: You have to associate with both. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Both guru's kṛpā and Kṛṣṇa's kṛpā, they must be joined. Then you will get. [break] *Jayādvaita: We're very eager to get that guru*-kṛpā. Prabhupāda: Who? Jayadwaita: We are, all of us. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. If you get guru's kṛpā, then automatically you get Kṛṣṇa. *Nārāyaṇa: Guru*-kṛpā only comes by pleasing the spiritual master, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Otherwise how? Nārāyaṇa: Excuse me? Prabhupāda: Otherwise how it can come? Nārāyaṇa: So those disciples who don't have opportunity to see you or speak with you... Prabhupāda: That he was speaking, vāṇī and vapuḥ. Even if you don't see his body, you take his word, vāṇī. Nārāyaṇa: But how do they know they're pleasing you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: If you actually follow the words of guru, that means he is pleased. And if you do not follow, how he can be pleased? Sudāmā: Not only that, but your mercy is spread everywhere, and if we take advantage, you told us once, then we will feel the result. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayādvaita: And if we have faith in what the guru says, then automatically we'll do that. Prabhupāda: Yes. My Guru Mahārāja passed in 1936, and I started this movement in 1965, thirty years after. Then? I am getting the mercy of guru. This is vāṇī. Even the guru is not physically present, if you follow the vāṇī, then you are getting help. Sudāmā: So there's no question of ever separation as long as the disciple follows the instruction of guru. *Prabhupāda: No. Cakhu*-dān dilo jei... What is that, next one? *Sudāmā: Cakhu*-dān dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei. Prabhupāda: Janme janme prabhu sei. So where there is separation? Who has opened your eyes, he is birth after birth your prabhu. Paramahaṁsa: You never feel any intense separation from your spiritual master? Prabhupāda: That you do not require to question. (end) Room Conversation With Yogi Bhajan and Jain Muni -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco Guest (1) (Indian gentleman, probably Yogi Bhajan): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) We have got a picture of Māyāpur. (Hindi) *Devotee: From the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (Conversation continues in Hindi, with second Indian gentleman also. Seem to be discussing Prabhupāda's various centers around the world.) They have lost interest, the younger generation.... (Conversation continues between three) Yogi Bhajan: As far as Golden Temple is concerned, that is their result... (Hindi) They have lot of temples and a lot of good word, (?) and let them learn to by themselves. (Hindi) I have no time to spoil(?) it. He is great. That is what I want to learn, how he can do that. And I don't believe that. My territory they define. It starts... It ends at the Suez Canal. Prabhupāda: Suez Canal means whole Mediterranean. *Yogi Bhajan: Yes, Mediterranean. And there I have up to Singapore, Malaysia. So I said, "Well, you have forgotten writing down Burma, and you never wrote a word about India, so good*-bye." That is not our territory. (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. Yogi Bhajan: (Hindi) We have the best attorney here in this area, and you are having a trouble with this temple. If you... Somebody if you can call, because in this area he is the best law attorney. Prabhupāda: You can take the address. Devotee: We have their phone number. Yogi Bhajan: We won that... Recently he won a very big case. This is our daily fight, but it comes on you sometimes. We fight it daily. We fight before it happens to us. If I was to buy this temple I would have insured the title in a suit case, and I would have filed the suit myself, but on the neighborhood. Devotee: Yes, well they had approved our moving in. Yogi Bhajan: That is something later, but I have talked with. That is simple. I would have sued this area. I have heard that I can be damaged, I would have sued them five million dollars, all this area, vicinity. I could have proved it because I would have done it. Moment they would have filed the case, proof was there. I had not to prove. Their own document would have proved it. But you know that attorney they had. Guest (2) (Indian gentleman): (Hindi) Yogi Bhajan: So I think here in this case, because this is one of the typical case. Their plea is very simple plea against which you have to come out with a very strong argument. They say it were(?) the temple, a certain frequency. You have changed the frequency, and therefore you have disturbed the environment and the ecology. I studied the entire case. I got all my information and I got it. So that's their main contention. Now what you have to prove is very ticklish. Therefore each paper must be filed very comparatively right because this is they call invocation of the zonal area. To relieve the pressure on the subsidies of the zones and that lies on a miracle(?). So if your attorney comes down the defense of it, and then you can get under Amendment One and then they can't touch you. It's a very, very good fight. We fought it. That's why... And we won it. They got us on the same point. But what we did was, we had already filed a complaint, or we knew it was going to come. That case went out of the court just like that. Devotee: We will consult with your attorney. Yogi Bhajan: No, no, he is expert. They have figured it out. Because we are very conspicuous in this some way. You get away with things, you know, you are all right. But with us it is not "That's the man. Get him." (?) Devotee: We have legal battles wherever we go. Yogi Bhajan: We have a battle on every step. We wear a kapon (Sikh knife), we have a battle on every step. They say, "It is a knife. You can't carry it." We fight every few steps. Social dangers, we have more social aggressive dangers than you. But if you just channel it on a patterned style, you know, pattern thirteen. Now what we fight is this fight is pattern thirteen, fight it. We go, we go through. (Hindi) (Conversation continues) Devotee: Is Nanda Kumāra ready? Devotee: Nanda Kumāra is... Do you want to take here or...? Prabhupāda: No. Guest (2): In that room. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: World Fellowship... Guest (2): World Fellowship of Religion. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) You ready? Devotee: Just preparing. (Hindi) Guest (2): Good is two words, two o's. You have to be God first then to be good to anybody. (Hindi) Charity begins from home. (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Namo brahmaṇya*-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. (Hindi) (end) Morning Walk -- July 24, 1975, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: They are not taking? Brahmānanda: It looks like they're dredging. Prabhupāda: Not dredging. Brahmānanda: Is that...? They're cleaning the...? Jayatīrtha: I don't know. They came there recently. It wasn't there a few months... Oh, they're tearing down that pier. They're tearing down that amusement park. [break] Jayādvaita: The scientists say that material nature is supreme, but because we're unable to accept nature as the supreme entity, different cultures have gotten different ideas of God. They've made these things up. The Greeks had one idea, the Romans had another idea, the Indians had one idea. So we've accepted that instead of accepting nature, although nature is actually the supreme. Prabhupāda: No, God is realized only by the devotees. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. So actually, God is realized through devotion. There is no other way. So in the proportion of one's development of devotional spirit, one realizes God. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. The proportion, devotion, required. But real process is devotion. Jayādvaita: But how can that be scientifically presented? How can we accept that scientifically? Prabhupāda: No, no, these rascal scientists, they cannot understand God. Those who were actually advanced, just like Professor Einstein and others, they believed so, that there is God; there is brain. [break] ...somebody was talking about another scientist, big scientist? Who was talking about? Jayādvaita: That Werner Von Braun. Prabhupāda: Ah, hah. Jayādvaita: That space scientist, he has accepted that there must be God. Prabhupāda: He has, yes. So those who are really scientist... Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Using modern observatories or large telescopes, scientists have photographed other brahmāṇḍas{ūl . At least to my impression they appear to be other solar systems. Like they have a sun and planets around them. Does that mean the material covering between the different brahmāṇḍas is invisible? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Is that correct? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But one of the coverings is earth. Prabhupāda: This is the covering of the universe. Covering you as far as you can see, that is covering. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Aren't there coverings of the 8 elements? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is above. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So he's saying that they have seen beyond that. Prabhupāda: How they can see? Paramahaṁsa: That was my question. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda says how can they see? Prabhupāda: No, they take all these stars as sun. But that is not fact. Sun is one. In each universe there is one sun in the middle. In this universe in the middle, from the circumference, 200,000,000,000's, no, two billion. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two billion. Prabhupāda: And above the sun there is moon. Then Mars, then Venus, like that. 1,600,000 miles above, above, above. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the moon is further away than the sun. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I say they have never gone to moon. Never gone. Hṛdayānanda: What is that? Rahu. [break] *Nalinī*-kaṇṭha: They say that they can see stars trillions of miles away. *Prabhupāda: But they cannot go. That's a fact. According to their estimation, the moon is the nearest. So they cannot go there. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...deva*-vratā devān. Moon is one of the heavenly planets. So unless one is very advanced in karma-kāṇḍa, offering sacrifices, nobody can go there. It is not so easy. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ [Bg. 14.18]. Those who are more and more higher status of goodness, they are promoted in the highest planet. Not by drinking wine and driving a sputnik one can... (laughter) It is not so easy. [break] ...also drink soma-rasa. The residents of the moon, they live for ten thousand years. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ten thousand of their years. Prabhupāda: Yes, deva. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And their years are equal to six months... Prabhupāda: Six months equal to one day. Such ten thousand years. Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, another field of study that Werner Von Braun is considering is unidentified flying objects. Now, this previously was not acknowledged by scientists, but he recently stated that when they have sent rockets into outer space they filmed objects that there's no explanation for. They think that they're spaceships from other planets. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that's... There is Siddhaloka*-without any aeroplane they can go from one planet to another. They are so perfect. Paramahaṁsa: So these, what they think are spaceships, perhaps are demigods? Prabhupāda: Spaceships there are in every planet. Paramahaṁsa: On every planet. Prabhupāda: But there is a planet. The residents of that planet, they can go without any spaceship. Siddhaloka. Rādhāvallabha: Scientists have done another test where they think... The scientists are doing tests where their opinion is that from certain acids life is coming. So they think that this can only happen... Prabhupāda: Asses? Rādhāvallabha: Acids, nucleic acids. So their opinion is that this can only occur in an atmosphere of methane. So they have understood from their telescopes that Jupiter has methane in its atmosphere, so therefore they say, "Very soon Jupiter will have life." Prabhupāda: Very soon? Not now? They have got advance. Yes. (chuckles) Most of the scientists, they think only living beings are on this planet, and all, they are vacant. They say. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. They say the closest planet that could have life is four light years away. That means the fastest... Prabhupāda: How there is life within this sand? We can see. Paramahaṁsa: They do not believe. Prabhupāda: No, there is no life within the sand? Paramahaṁsa: In the sun. Prabhupāda: No, no, in the sand. You'll find so many lives, many millions. How there is life in the water? There is life in the water, there is life on the land, there is life in the air, so where is there no life? How you can say there is no life? That is foolishness. And they say that the dust brought from the moon planet is the same. It can be found here. So why there should not be life? Paramahaṁsa: If there is life on other planets then they assume it's in a plant form or very, very low, like plants, bushes at the most. Prabhupāda: That is their opinion. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? If these scientists, they landed on the Rahu planet, that means that... Prabhupāda: That could be, but some... Just like somebody was saying that there are many planets unknown. They might have gone to some... Just like there are many parts of the world you have never seen. Even on this planet, you cannot say that you have seen all the parts of the world. That is not possible. [break] Paramahaṁsa: As far as these unidentified flying objects that Werner Von Braun was recently mentioning, he says that previously they've had many sightings. They've seen these and filmed these, but they're afraid to release them or the government is afraid to acknowledge them because they're afraid it would cause a panic amongst the world. Prabhupāda: What is that panic? Paramahaṁsa: A panic that everyone would be frightened with the fact that there is people from other planets. Prabhupāda: And they are not frightened? Without this knowledge they are not frightened, as if they are safe. (laughter) Are they safe without that knowledge? They are frightened of your atomic bomb. Who is not frightened? Who is that rascal who is not frightened? Is there any person who is not frightened? Paramahaṁsa: A fool. Prabhupāda: Fool is also frightened when there is stick. Everyone is frightened. That is the one of the conditions of material life. As eating is one of the items, similarly frightening is also... And the more one is godless, he is more frightened. Paramahaṁsa: There is this question about these, again, UFO's, whether or not they are agressive or if they will bring us more knowledge than what we have. So there's this fear, uncertainty. [break] Prabhupāda: ...sataḥ syāt. This frightfulness is due to unawareness of God. The more one is unaware of God, he is more frightened. One who is fully conscious of God, he is not frightened because he knows, "Everything is God. Why shall I afraid?" Paramahaṁsa: Even death. Prabhupāda: Death is already declared that "I am death." Kṛṣṇa says. So there is no question of. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a description in the *Bhāgavatam* of Dhruva Mahārāja when he's fighting all of those demons, that he wasn't frightened at all. Hrdayananda: So the devotee sees Kṛṣṇa in death also. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is everything. Without Kṛṣṇa, there cannot be anything. Janmādyasya yataḥ. The example is given: Just like the rope. Somebody is taking it is snake. He is frightened. And one knows this is rope, he is not frightened. So actually the one thing-God is one*-He is distributed in so many manifestations. So one realizes that it is God. By His energy He is manifested in so many forms. So why he should be frightened? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a uttama*-adhikārī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayādvaita: Now, in the modern days, they take it the other way, that "Everything is God, so I can do anything." Prabhupāda: But you are not God. You are rascal. (laughter) That is Māyāvāda theory, that "Because God is everything, therefore I am God." That is Māyāvāda. Just like Vivekananda said, "Why you are finding out here and there God? Here is God, so many, on this street." That is his theory. *Jayādvaita: There was a book*-yesterday someone was showing me-where Meher Baba was saying that everyone is in God and therefore everyone is God. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Everyone is within the space; therefore everyone is space? (laughter) Just see the logic. Such rascals, they are God. Paramahaṁsa: Last week, Prabhupāda, you may have read that the Russians and the Americans sent up two rockets that met in outer space. Prabhupāda: Hm, so what is the benefit? Paramahaṁsa: Well, this is the point, is that... It was called the Soyez flight. In any case, they have announced... They made a joint speech where they said, "Together we can conquer outer space. That is the purpose." So now the Russians and the Americans are trying to get... to combine in their efforts to conquer. *Prabhupāda: Bora bora goye gala rasatala, vetta gore bole katha jala(?). There is a river. The horses, they can swim. So the river was so ferocious and many horses drowned. So one vetta gora, means third*-class horse, he said, "How was the water? Let me try." Paramahaṁsa: (laughing) They all drowned. Prabhupāda: The vetta gora. These are vetta gora, horses with (remedy?). Satsvarūpa: But they can point to progress, not that they're all drowning. Prabhupāda: What is that progress? Satsvarūpa: Well, people never thought they could reach the moon. Now they think they have. Prabhupāda: So that is not progress. Progress means when you conquer death. That is progress. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why is that the only progress? Prabhupāda: Because whatever you do, death will come and take it. So where is guarantee that you will enjoy? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Relatively we can enjoy. *Prabhupāda: Relatively everyone... The ant also thinking, "I am also some important..." That is Kṛṣṇa's proposal, janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānu... [Bg. 13.9]. You are trying to get out of all kinds of miserable conditions, but here is your real misery, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi: birth, death, old age... First of all conquer them. Then talk of advance. You cannot conquer even on disease. There are so many persons suffering from disease. You cannot stop it, and you're making progress? What is that progress? It is all rascaldom. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we see that even your devotees, they are also subject to birth, death, disease and old age. Prabhupāda: No, we do not say that we are making progress like you. We are trying to make spiritual progress. We are servant of God. We never say that we are very big men, Vaiṣṇava. Tṛṇād api sunīcena. We think most insignificant creature. Paramahaṁsa: But what of our efforts to conquer cancer and tuberculosis? *Prabhupāda: No. Because we are conquering to... We are trying to avoid death. Then it is... Everything is cured. Cancer, cancer's father, grandfather, everything is cured. So we are trying for that. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that "If you simply understand Me..." Janma karma ca divyaṁ me yo jānāti tattvataḥ. Simply if you understand what is Kṛṣṇa, why He comes, what is the purpose, then you become conqueror over death. That is our philosophy. Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa. That is our progress, how much we have understood Kṛṣṇa. And when one understands fully Kṛṣṇa*-fully it is not possible; *at least partially*-he is conquering over death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is real human life, how to conquer over death. Aihiṣṭhaṁ yat tat punar-janma-jāyāya. All the great sages and big, big kings, they left everything, went to the forest for austerity, penance. Why? To conquer over death. That is the mission. That... Everyone can do that, human life. And that is plainly explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Simply try to understand Me and you conquer over death." Simple thing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But still we see, the Vaiṣṇavas... They may argue like this, that... A karmī may say that "Still, how do we know that you have conquered over death, because you're still..." Prabhupāda: You cannot know. Because you are foolish, you cannot know. Just like the example is given: there is reel. You know? What is called? The children... Paramahaṁsa: Swing? Jayatīrtha: Ferris wheel? *Prabhupāda: No, no. In your country there is not, but in India there is a reel, reel*-like. It rounds the thread for flying kite. What is called? *Kṛṣṇa*-kanti: Just a ball of string. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spool. Paramahaṁsa: Kite line. Prabhupāda: Kite line? How it is? Paramahaṁsa: How it is? It's a line for a kite, and it's wound upon on a stick, and to make the kite go higher you unleash... Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is going on. Sometimes the kite is going on, it is also rounding. And when the kite is coming down, that is also rounding. But you see one thing. But one thing is coming down; one is going up. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it's defective vision which... Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a cat catching a rat in the mouth, his position, and catching the cub, kit, what is called? Brahmānanda: Kitten. Prabhupāda: You see that it is on the mouth, but one is feeling pleasure, and one is feeling finished. (laughter) Yadubara: The materialists say that it's very morbid to talk so much about death. They say it is very depressing to speak so much about death. Prabhupāda: Because they are rascals, they cannot conquer. Everyone doesn't like death, but because they cannot conquer, they say like that, "Grapes are sour. Don't bother." After jumping, jumping, jumping, when the grapes were not available, "It is sour, no use." Rādhāvallabha: We have also got a method of conquering death. We are planning now to freeze... When there is some illness that will cause death we will freeze the body, and when the cure for the disease is discovered we will wake it up. Prabhupāda: That is same as death. That freezing itself is death, but the rascal does not know that it is death. Rādhāvallabha: But later on we will thaw the body out and cure it. *Prabhupāda: "Later on," that is their post*-dated check. Paramahaṁsa: But then they say this, "In a hundred years, when we discover the cure, then we will bring you out and cure you." Hṛdayānanda: Or eat him. Prabhupāda: So you will never discover the cure, and he will never come out. Now somebody was saying that this freezing, the body within, they decompose. The parts of the body are separate. That is... As we have... You take the frozen vegetable. It is tasteless. It is decomposed. Paramahaṁsa: So actually it comes down to what Tamāla Kṛṣṇa asked. For example, the scientists may say, "Well, you say that we have a life after death, that we should conquer over death, but I cannot see it. I cannot see anyone who has come back." Prabhupāda: You cannot see even what is there after hundred years. What is the value of your eyes? Why you are proud of your eyes? Paramahaṁsa: So you say it's based on faith. Prabhupāda: Not faith, it is fact. Just like if somebody says me, "The other side is Japan." I cannot see, so I may disbelieve. But that's a fact; Japan is there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But others have seen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you have to hear from a person who has seen. Rādhāvallabha: How do we know he has seen? Paramahaṁsa: We have to have faith again then. Prabhupāda: What is that? Paramahaṁsa: To begin to believe that you have seen, I must have faith in you. Prabhupāda: Yes, that faith. How do you believe there is Japan? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Faith. Prabhupāda: Have you seen? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Then why do you believe? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Faith. Hṛdayānanda: Every day on the news, every day on television a man comes on and he says what's happening all around the world, and everyone accepts. No one has ever seen any of those places. Prabhupāda: You have to believe. *Satsvarūpa: Why is it that people are so disinclined to listen to our authority*-that they all take the scientists' authority-if it's just one authority or another? *Prabhupāda: Because they are nondevotee. That is the defect. More the nondevotee, more rascal mūḍha, duṣkṛtina, mūḍha... They cannot. Duṣkṛtino mūḍhaḥ, na prapadyante. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna: "Knowledge has been taken away by māyā." [break] ...more you become atheist, the more you become blind. This is the point. [break] ...given this maxim in our Back to Godhead, "Where there is God there is no nescience." [break] ...preaching, back to God. "If you want to know things are there, then come back to God. Don't go this side; come this side." This side means he will be drowned. There are two sides. If somebody unnecessarily goes this side, he is death, and this side, he is saved. So one who is going this side we are asking back to Godhead, "Come in this side." If one goes this side, he will find the downtown, so many nice buildings, parks and everything. And the boy who goes this side, he will die. Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Svarūpa Dāmodara's book he gave the example that "Why does the red apple fall off the tree but not the green apple?" So the scientists say that when the apple gets ripe, certain acids rise in the stem and weaken it and it falls off the tree. There's no need for God or anything like that. It's automatic. Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no question of God, but with the gravitation why the green apple is not drawn downward? Rādhāvallabha: Because the stem is very strong on a green apple, but on a red apple it is weak. Prabhupāda: That means it is conditional; gravitation works on condition. It is not final. Under certain condition it works. Therefore, then you have to accept condition. Under such and such condition it falls. Rādhāvallabha: So these conditions are being set up by nature. There is no need for a controller. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you cannot say that gravitation draws things downward. If gravitation... You will find cloud, thousands of tons of water. Why it is not down? Cloud, why it does not come down? Rādhāvallabha: Because it is in vapor form. It has not condensed yet. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, but it is weighty. Rādhāvallabha: It is waiting for the proper temperature. Prabhupāda: Then everything is conditional. Everything conditional. Rādhāvallabha: So these conditions are part of nature. Prabhupāda: That is all right. But you cannot say, "This is the law: 'Everything will come down.' " These things are not coming down. So if there is... Not only this cloud, so many planets, hundreds and millions and millions of tons, how they are flying? How they are stayed on the sky? Everyone knows it. Rādhāvallabha: Each planet has its own gravitational force. Prabhupāda: That may be. I say it is condition. Under certain condition... When Rāmacandra throws stones for a bridging, the stones were floating. The stones did not go down. Rādhāvallabha: Well, we can see in these inborn laws of nature all these things are going on. We don't see where there is need of some person behind it. These things are going on. Each planet has its own gravitational force; therefore they are balancing each other in the universe. Prabhupāda: You do that. You float one ball if you are so confident. Rādhāvallabha: I cannot do it, but nature is doing it. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are rascal. You do not know who is doing. That is rascal. You are thinking everyone like you. That is nonsense. Ātmavat manyate jagat: Everyone is think that 'Other party is like me.' " [break] ...so many conditions are fulfilled, then some action takes place, five. There are mainly five causes. [break] ...God throws a stone, big stone, it floats because He is God. When you throw a stone, it will drown. When God makes one big planet floating, that is possible. You cannot do it. Therefore you have to accept Rādhāvallabha: [break] ...on a small scale we have set up... Prabhupāda: Therefore you accept that you are small. You are not the great. God is great; you are small. So claim a small credit, don't claim as good as God. That is your foolishness. Because we are part and parcel of God, we have got capacity to do part and parcel, not the whole. So remain small, don't try to become big. Remain servant of God. Don't try to become God, that is foolishness. That is our philosophy. Tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. Remain humble and meek. You will understand God. (end) Morning Walk -- July 25, 1975, Los Angeles *Rādhā*-vallabha: I read it last night. Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, it seems that they're complaining that people are depending on faith for their knowledge. So their claim is that "We do not depend on this faith. We simply take a group of facts, and from these facts, this strong body of facts, we develop a theory which will explain them." Prabhupāda: Theory is not faith? Theory is not faith? Jayādvaita: They say that the theory, it's simply an idea of how it could happen. Prabhupāda: That is faith. Jayādvaita: But they don't believe the theory until they think they have sufficient facts. Prabhupāda: That is faith, I dare say, blind faith. *Rādhā*-vallabha: These facts, these theories, are tested. By presenting more and more facts in the light of this theory, either the theory collapses under the new facts or it becomes strengthened. So by this method... Prabhupāda: What are the facts? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, for example, you may see that living beings are reproducing geometrically. One couple produces two children, those children each produce two children, so in that way it appears that the animal population should be increasing geometrically. And we can see that... Prabhupāda: Who made that geometric? *Rādhā*-vallabha: This is all just going on. Prabhupāda: Ah, accident. (laughter) That's all. *Rādhā*-vallabha: So their observation is that even though this geometric progression of species is going on, still, the same amount of living beings in each species is remaining. So the theory to support this is that within each species there must be variations. And within these variations, certain ones are more favorable than others for survival. So in due course of time the unfavorable variations die out. Prabhupāda: That is already there. You are living more than the ants. That is already there. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Their claim is that within a particular species the variations from birth to birth... Prabhupāda: Can they increase the life period of an ant? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, their claim is that this can happen. *Prabhupāda: "Can happen," that post*-dated check again. This is the only shelter, post-dated check. Hṛdayānanda: So it again comes down to faith on their part. Prabhupāda: All rascals. Don't waste time. But see their rascaldom. Satsvarūpa: One claim the scientists make is that they're more humble in their knowledge than we are. They don't say that this is the absolute... Prabhupāda: Why we should be humble? We are not foolish men, that we shall be humble. We must be proud of our knowledge. You are foolish; you become humble. (laughter) The dog is humble; man is not humble. The dog may bark, and man-"Shut up!" Immediately... So you are like dogs. (laughter) *Rādhā*-vallabha: Their claim is that species are not constant like our claim. They say that species constantly change till the original species is gone and a new species is created. Prabhupāda: What is that original species? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, they say originally chemicals. Originally very complex chemicals, acids... Prabhupāda: Very complex again. So they cannot understand. So complex that they cannot understand. So what is the use of such theory? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, they say these complex chemicals came from the simplest chemicals. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, they say in space there are many, many particles. Prabhupāda: How the space came? Rāmeśvara: That's eternal. They say it's eternal. They say the space and the dust... Prabhupāda: Then why do you bother? Stop speculating. Everything is eternal. Why do you bother yourself to find out something new? Rāmeśvara: To control. To gain control. Prabhupāda: No, you cannot control because you are controlled. That is eternally you are controlled. You are controlled. Yadubara: Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they don't recognize that there are so many species of life. Just like the white man and the black man they will say is one species. And also the aborigine. Prabhupāda: We... Let us accept forms, not species but forms. It doesn't matter. There is only change of words. There are so many forms. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They say that the amount of forms is not constant because by breeding different forms together they can create completely new forms that never existed before. Prabhupāda: What is the use of creating new forms? Already there are eight million. *Rādhā*-vallabha: But their claim is that by breeding different forms together they will get superior forms. They give the example... Prabhupāda: You cannot maintain your own child form. You are killing, and what is the use of increasing? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, for example they used to have wild boars. They could not eat them. But they have bred now very fat pigs to eat. So they consider this to be a great advantage. Yadubara: Also with fruits and vegetables they are combining and creating new types. Prabhupāda: Factually, (indistinct) so many varieties. Brahmānanda: Like the nectāriṇe is a combination of a peach and a plum. Jayādvaita: We have the real nectarine, though. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...created a new species, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: What they created? The nectāriṇe you may have created, but the peach and the plum was there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they have created a new thing. Prabhupāda: What new creation? Unless there was plum and peach, how could you create? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the peach and plum create . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: So they're dependent on the material world. (?) *Rādhā*-vallabha: [break] ...scientist named Fox who has. They have conjectured that these original very complex nucleic acids have created life. So he has taken these acids in a big test tube... Prabhupāda: I say (?) "Fox, go to the forest. (laughter) And cry there." Yes, we treat them as foxes and jackals, that's all, not even human beings. Why they waste time in this way and people are enamored by them? That is... Just like you were talking about space meeting. What they have gained out of it? And people are enamored to talk about them, write in the newspaper or make a subject matter. And then all of a sudden death comes, "Get out," finished. You see? How foolish they are. So, Hayagrīva prabhu, how you are feeling? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hayagrīva. Prabhupāda: How you are feeling? Hayagrīva: Oh, fine, Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: That's nice. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order is yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Don't talk nonsense. Whomever you meet, if you want to become a leader and talk something, talk Kṛṣṇa-kathā, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'..., what Kṛṣṇa has said. Then satisfy your ambition to become a talker. Otherwise, you rascal, remain a talker only. You talk only; you get nothing. If you want to utilize your talking power, then talk what Kṛṣṇa has instructed. Then your life will be successful. And if you talk foolishly, then you will be revealed as a rascal. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāsate: "A rascal fool is so long beautiful as long he does not speak. As soon as he speaks, then he is revealed that he is a rascal." So don't talk this. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkha. You can dress yourself, very nice gentleman. People will res...But as soon as you talk nonsense-"Oh, here is a rascal," that's all. That is going on. They are... In the name of scientist, philosopher, they are talking nonsense and exposing themselves that they are all rascals. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...someone like Meher Baba who never spoke? Prabhupāda: That is another art of not being exposed. (laughter) Because as soon as he speaks he becomes rascal. So maunebaba... There is no enemy. There is in Bengali, bhovara satru nai: "If you are dumb, then nobody is your enemy." So they become bhovara means dumb; I don't speak. That means I don't create many enemies, Bhova that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nothing positive, though. Prabhupāda: Yes. "You are O.K., I am O.K." That's all. (laughter) Yadubara: Like that Yogi Bhajan. He didn't say anything for a long time. Then when he spoke he started speaking about his court cases. Prabhupāda: Court cases? Yadubara: Yes. Prabhupāda: He is very expert, expert in dealing with legal cases. So what they will speak? What they have got? Better not to talk. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. During that meeting, that Muni, he was interested in spiritual conversation. But Yogi Bhajan, he did not take part at all in that part. Prabhupāda: No, no, he is after woman. That's all. Yadubara: Afterwards he said his ego was very large. He said he had a big ego. Prabhupāda: Eagle? Eagle bird. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, ego, ego. Prabhupāda: Ego, oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He admitted he had a very big ego. Prabhupāda: But who cares for you? Yadubara: He said he was trying to do away with it. Prabhupāda: But your beard is growing more and more. [break] He said that "I say to my disciples that if you have to take instruction, that is Bhaktivedanta Prabhu." He said that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then why doesn't he go to Bhaktivedanta? Prabhupāda: No he comes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Yeah, you are not going to him. [break] Prabhupāda: ...first came to me that "We are trying to establish universal brotherhood." You were not present. Who was present? I said, "It is all bogus. You will never be able to do it." Immediately I told him." It is all bogus. You will never be able to." *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I noticed, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in your conversation with him that there was some mention that the Vedas were the universal doctrine. So he mentioned, I think, that his... What is that book they have? The Guru*-grantha could also be accepted as universal. And I think you said something that it was only a branch. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was feeling that it wasn't a branch. It was as good. [break] Prabhupāda: ...light? Hṛdayānanda: What is that light? Kirtirāja: It's on the boat. Hṛdayānanda: On the boat? [break] *Prabhupāda: ...interested, just like you give somebody two kinds of vegetables and spices, ghee, and he makes a nice preparation. So people, these so*-called scientists, they are like that. But we are after wherefrom the vegetable came. That is the difference. Brahmānanda: Who supplied. Prabhupāda: Who supplied. That is the difference. He is trying to take credit by mixing these vegetable and spices and salt and ghee, and he is expert in preparing a very nice, palatable... But we say that "Where you got the vegetables? Where you got the spices? Where you got the ghee?" And they are not concerned about that. Jayādvaita: They don't want to tell. Prabhupāda: They do not know. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Less intelligent. Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is yato va imāni bhūtāni jāyante: The original source of all these things. Rāmeśvara: They think if they can make very palatable dishes, what is the need for God? Prabhupāda: But without God where you get the ingredients? Rāmeśvara: He is automatically supplying them. Prabhupāda: Oh, therefore there is no need of God. I supply you everything and you say, "There is no need of you." It is very good intelligence. Ungrateful. The intelligence is ungrateful. So such men should not be given any credit, ungrateful. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They also say that "At least our method proves out with facts, whereas your method, there is no facts. Simply you have some faith. So better that at least we know the facts and not know the source." Prabhupāda: We know (?) fact. We accept this earth, water, air, fire, everything. Bhūmir āpo... *Rādhā*-vallabha: So we can see this is here. Prabhupāda: So where..? Our position is: "Wherefrom it came?" *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, we have to test this out scientifically. We can't just accept. Prabhupāda: No. You say that the water is composition of hydrogen and oxygen. Wherefrom you got this so much hydrogen, oxygen, the Pacific Ocean? There is so much water needed in so many places. Why don't you take chemical and pour water? Why you talk nonsense? Brahmānanda: They can make a little water in a test tube. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's all. (laughter) That we can produce while I pass urine. (laughter) So you can create little urine, but that we do automatically. At least I do. Every hour I pass urine. So your credit is urine*-maker. (laughter) *Rādhā*-vallabha: We have developed a method of seeding clouds. We send airplanes into the clouds and spread chemicals, and then rain comes. So what need is there for... Brahmānanda: Sometimes, not all the time. Prabhupāda: What is that? Brahmānanda: Sometimes they're able to... Rāmeśvara: Agitate the cloud to produce rain. Hṛdayānanda: And but now they find out it's causing worse effects, so they have to stop that also. Prabhupāda: So why don't you create... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The clouds. Prabhupāda: Clouds and sufficient rain in the desert where there is.., so much water is needed. Why don't you do that? If you say, "Yes, I have passed urine in the desert." (laughs) what is the..? "I have passed urine on the desert." That desert is fulfilled? Yadubara: Sometimes in times of great need, in the desert they will hire these Indian rainmakers, and they will do some dance to try to create rain. [break] Prabhupāda: ...no need of creating water. You have no such intelligence. Just like the Arabian desert is there; Arabian Sea is there. Why don't you utilize this water? Instead of bluffing others that "We can create water," why don't you use this water and make the desert fertile? [break] ...create a little water in the test tube, so you take that credit. Why you want to take the credit of creating a Pacific Ocean? That is our protest. You are able to create one ounce of water in the test tube. That's all right, miracle done. But we say that one who has created the Pacific Ocean, how much credit he will be given. That is our proposal. You take test tube credit, but you must give Pacific credit to God. That is wanted. But creating test tube water, you want to take the Pacific credit. Is that very nice proposal? [break] ...spoken by one scientist in our Delhi meeting. Who were present in the Delhi meeting? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was. Prabhupāda: That scientist's name? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dr. Atmaram. *Prabhupāda: Dr. Atmaram, that "We have simply learned how to bark like dog, but we don't care so many dogs are already barking." He admitted that if a man learns how to bark, people will purchase ticket and see him, and so many thousands of dogs, dog, are barking-nobody cares. This is scientist. You learn how to bark, imitate the dog, and you become important man. You have create one third fruit by mixing peach and plum, and one who is creating millions and trillions of fruits that is lying on the floor-nobody cares for that*-he has no credit. These rascals wants credit for this most insignificant... Satsvarūpa: They say their barking is an improvement on the original dog. Prabhupāda: To another dog appreciates like that. (laughter) Rāmeśvara: [break] ...philosophy is that originally God's creation is not perfect. It is... Nature is very wild, and man can make it perfect. Prabhupāda: You have not come to that perfection, so you are not important. [break] ...Muslim country there is a word, khodaka upar kimvar dhari. (?) Khoda (?) means God. These rascals want to go above God. [break] Jayādvaita: ...tees have remarked that since you have come to Los Angeles, the Deity has increased in beauty many times, Kṛṣṇa. [break] Prabhupāda: ...my anxiety, that in my absence you may neglect Deity worship. Then the whole thing will be spoiled. That is my anxiety. [break] *Rādhā*-vallabha: ...are very worried. They say the earth has a certain tilt, and every few million years the tilt is changing little, little, and by this changing eventually the ice on the North and South Poles will melt, they say. So they are very afraid because then their estimate is that the entire earth will be covered with water. Prabhupāda: Why he is..? Why he is afraid? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, they are afraid for future humanity. They will all be killed. Prabhupāda: He is not careful about himself. He is thinking... He cannot take care of himself, he is thinking of others. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They this is a humanitarian attitude, to worry about the future. Prabhupāda: So to protect yourself is not humanitarian? You are "dogtarian"? You cannot protect yourself and thinking about humanity. You are also human being. Why don't you take care of you first of all? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Maybe it is a higher duty to worry about people in the future. Prabhupāda: No, no, duty... That I know. But why don't you take care of you? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I've got a job. Brahmānanda: Well, they think they're O.K. They think, "We're all right." Rāmeśvara: But this is broadminded. Prabhupāda: No, he is not O.K. because he is full of anxiety. He's not O.K. How he can say he is O.K.? A rascal, full of anxiety, and he is thinking "O.K.," just see. Yadubara: I think they are thinking they will live for millions of years. *Prabhupāda: That is post*-dated check again. So many rascals spoke like that, but they are washed away by the waves of nature. You see? That is rascaldom. *Rādhā*-vallabha: That is their first anxiety, that the ice will melt and cover the earth with water. Their next anxiety is that it will be covered with ice. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Ice melt or not melt, you are not going to live; *you will die. So others will die. So you cannot protect yourself and others also. So why you are unnecessarily full of anxiety? You cannot. Paśyann api na paśyati. Pramattaḥ teṣāṁ nidhānāṁ paśyann api na paśyati. These things are already discussed in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. You don't read? These rascals. *Rādhā*-vallabha: I have no time. My science books... Prabhupāda: You have time to talk all this nonsense. (laughter) And you have no time to read Bhāgavata, that's all. This is our misfortune. [break] Jayādvaita: ...at the airport they cannot save themselves from our book distributors. Prabhupāda: Rather, they purchase also. Jayādvaita: Yes. The scientists become conquered. [break] Prabhupāda: ...scientists do not manufacture brain and give it to a stone, and he becomes a scientist. Why do they not do that? Manufacture. You have got so nice brain. Now manufacture another brain and put it on the stone, and he becomes that, what is called, Frankenstein? (laughter) Why they are not able to create another brain? What is the answer? Jayatīrtha: They haven't been able to get sufficient research grants from the government. Rāmeśvara: They need more money from the government to... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say they will do it. Prabhupāda: And then what is his position? Who has created his brain? *Rādhā*-vallabha: This just came in the course of evolution. Prabhupāda: So then why you are talking so much? It will come, everything. Why you are wasting time. Let it come everything by evolution. *Jagannātha*-suta: They say, "Where everything has come from, that is not so much important, but let us take the forces that we have now, the forces of nature, and use them for the betterment of mankind. Where it comes from..." Prabhupāda: What is the betterment? *Jagannātha*-suta: "Yes, because years ago people would have to go out in the cold and chop a tree to get wood for fire. Now they simply turn the stove, and the fire is there." Prabhupāda: That you say, that the wood was there and people were taking. You do not know. You are so foolish. The woods were there already and people were there. They were taking advantage. *Jagannātha*-suta: "Yeah, we've arranged it in such a way. Now it's easier for us to carry on our daily lives by adjusting things like this. Where it comes from. It's already there. We admit it's there. Where it comes from, it's not so important." Prabhupāda: They used to create fire by mantra. Can you do that? Brahmānanda: They need natural gas, and the natural gas is running out. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We don't believe in these mantras because there's no fossils. Prabhupāda: I don't believe you also. Who believes, you? Some rascals may believe. *Rādhā*-vallabha: There's so much evidence, though. We have fossils. Prabhupāda: No, no, we have also evidence. If you don't believe me, who is going to believe you? [break] *Rādhā*-vallabha: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, where Darwin actually admitted that there was a creator. Kirtirāja: He admitted? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. He said, "So we can see that the creator originally breathed the air of life into living objects, and from there on evolution took place." Prabhupāda: That is good. [break] Yadubara: ...that theory is correct, isn't it, in a sense, that the bodies are always changing? The bodies are always changing, so from the outward appearance it seems that the evolutionary theory is correct. Prabhupāda: No, that is... We, accepting evolution. But their evolution is that there is no soul who is the proprietor of the body. That they do not know. Yadubara: So there is no meaning to their theory then. Prabhupāda: Because in beginning is mistaken. [break] ...your education from wrong platform, then whole thing is wrong. [break]...study means that "I am this dress," then do you study me properly? So that is their intelligence. They are studying, Darwin studying, this body and no knowledge of the proprietor of the body. [break] *Rādhā*-vallabha: They argue that this Vedic philosophy is coming from India, and in India there is so much disease and so many problems, but here, where we have our science, there is no disease. Prabhupāda: Because they are now fond of you. The Indians have become infected by you; therefore they are diseased. You are all diseased, and now you infected them, they have also become diseased. Brahmānanda: But why is there no disease here? Why is there no symptoms? Prabhupāda: There is no disease? Why you are anxious about the cancer, the big disease? India may be suffering from small disease, and because you are suffering from big disease, therefore you are big. "We... I am suffering from big disease." First of all become diseaseless, then talk of that India is suffering and you are not suffering. You are big, and you are suffering from big disease, that's all. [break] Brahmānanda: The wife of the president Ford, she has gotten cancer, and she had to have operation, very painful. Prabhupāda: Big man, big disease, big pain. Brahmānanda: Yes. The president could not protect his own wife. *Jayādvaita: The vice*-president's also. *Prabhupāda: Vice*-president? Jayādvaita: His wife also. *Jagannātha*-suta: Rockefeller. Prabhupāda: Question is that India is small, he is suffering from malaria, and you are big; you are suffering from cancer. So a big man, big disease; a small man, small disease. But we wants the diseaseless. But you become proud: "Oh, we have got big disease. For treatment we pay the physician thousands of dollar. You pay eight annas. Therefore I am better. I am able to pay the physician millions of dollars. You cannot pay. Therefore I am big." [break] Brahmānanda: The hospitals here have better facilities than in countries in India. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. It is simply proportion, five upon ten and five millions upon ten million. The proportion is the same. Because the figure is five million over ten million, that does not mean that the proportion is not the same. Put five upon ten or five million for ten mill..., the result is the same. [break] *Rādhā*-vallabha: ...also create food grains like this with their chemicals. They could do it too. Prabhupāda: So why don't you produce more and give to India? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, it belongs to us. *Prabhupāda: Why other parts, they will suffer for gain. That's nice. You have made scientific improvement. You produce more and distribute to the poor country. [break] we become advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and become advance in science and cooperate. That is our proposition. Andha*-kañja-nyāya. One is blind; *one is lame. So let the lame man be taken by the blind man. He can walk and they... Both their work will be nicely done. That I put this argument always. Andha*-kañja-nyāya. You are blind by material advancement, and India has got spiritual advancement, but for want of money they cannot Move. So you take this lame man, you blind, on your shoulder, and cooperation will be good for the whole world. (end) Morning Walk -- July 26, 1975, Laguna Beach Brahmānanda: ...shortage that they will make processes for eating the seaweed. Prabhupāda: They are already doing that. Rāmeśvara: It is considered a health food in many vegetarian restaurants, they import it as a health food. Prabhupāda: That Ahmedabad, that gentleman in his house, you were guest, you were in Ahmedabad? Jayatīrtha: Ahmedabad, that... Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: ...homeopathic doctor? Prabhupāda: No, no, that gentleman, his name I forget now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Patel? Prabhupāda: Patel, yes. Not the doctor, the young man in whose house we became guest. He's doing this business. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eating it. Prabhupāda: He's mixing with something, making like that Chinese grass and what you call? His business. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Chinese eat this. Prabhupāda: Chinese, Japanese. Rāmeśvara: In Japan, it is very popular. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: They have farms, they call them sea farms and they specially grow the seaweed for cultivation. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is very kind. If you want this kind of food, he'll give you facility. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the Vedic culture, I don't think they like this. They'll prefer this... Do you think Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Vedic culture means Kṛṣṇa prasāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Kṛṣṇa, you cannot offer this to Kṛṣṇa, can you? Prabhupāda: No. [break] Devotee (1): ...seaweed they eat. It grows out further. This isn't edible, they say. Prabhupāda: Everything is edible but meant for different living entities. Stool is also edible, meant for the hogs. In the last war, stool was also eaten by human beings, you know that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the Germans. [break] Devotee (1): ...take the deities on a walk down this way, up to the park and put them underneath this gazebo there. Prabhupāda: Park, that is a park? Devotee (1): Yes, it's a park up there. [break] Prabhupāda: ...anantaya kalpa (?). Ananta. [break] ...different language. (pause) What means go away? [break] ...means you haven't got master. (end) Room Conversations -- July 26, 1975, Laguna Beach Jayatīrtha: These are guests. Ṛṣabhadeva: These are some professors, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who form part of our congregation. Prabhupāda: Give him front seat. Give him a pad. Jayatīrtha: The professors can come up here in the front. [break] Ṛṣabhadeva: ...and Mr. Surface, professors, of theology and economics respectively. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. I was talking with this boy about freedom. And so I say that there is no freedom for us. We are always dependent. So what is your opinion about it? Mr. Surface: I agree with that. *Prabhupāda: Thank you. Take Bhagavad*-gītā. Find out this verse. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarva... Who can read very distinctly? You will do or he will do? Give to him. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Purport. Satsvarūpa: Purport. "Two persons, one in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and the other in material consciousness, working on the same level, may appear to be working on the same platform, but there is a wide gulf of difference in their respective positions. The person in material consciousness is convinced by false ego that he is the doer of everything. He does not know that the mechanism of the body is produced by material nature, which works under the supervision of the Supreme Lord. The materialistic person has no knowledge that ultimately he is under the control of Kṛṣṇa. The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and as such his bodily and mental activities should be engaged in the service of Kṛṣṇa, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The ignorant man forgets that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is known as Hṛṣīkeśa, or the master of the senses of the material body, for due to his long misuse of the senses in sense gratification, he is factually bewildered by the false ego, which makes him forget his eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: So this is false ego, to think of oneself as free. You are professor of economics? Mr. Surface: Yes. Prabhupāda: I think I may remember. There is economist professor, Marshall? Marshall's economics? Mr. Surface: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You know him? You must be knowing. I think he gives definition of economic impetus*-family affection. I was also a student of economics in my student life, Scottish Churches' College. So we had to read this Marshall economics, I think. That definition, that what is the economic impetus, why people want to earn money? So the reason, he gives-due to some family affection. Am I right? Mr. Surface: I didn't understand the last part. Prabhupāda: Family affection. Brahmānanda: Family affection is the impetus for economic... Prabhupāda: Development. Mr. Surface: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So he is dependent on the family affection. Then economic impetus go on. And I think he has given another proposition that if man can easily live, then he will not work. That is the nature of man. Therefore a rich man's son, he does not work. Because he has father's money, he can spend. In America the boys are rich man's son, and therefore so many boys are not working. They have got easy income, and they are not working. And because there is no proper work, they are becoming hippies. They are manufacturing independence. "Idle brain is a devil's workshop." This human psychology is the same everywhere. In India many rich men's son, until he has spoiled his father's whole money, he is restless. And when he is turned to a beggar, then he is satisfied. I have seen many, spoiling father's money like anything, and the same man, when he is beggar in the street, he feels happy. I shall quote one statement of a very big man, politician, Mr. C.R. Das. So he died in 1925. He was about our father's age. So he was earning in those days fifty thousand rupees per month. Fifty thousand... our rupee or dollar is the same. Although exchange value is different, but the... Locally, the purchasing capacity is the same. So he and his wife were sitting on the corridor, and the wife was talking that "Why you are so morose always? You are earning like anything. You have got respect as political leader. Everyone likes you. You have no want. Why you are sorry? How you can become happy? What is your program?" So on the street one mendicant was going on. He said, "I want to become like that mendicant; then I will be happy." And at last, he became like that. So sometimes one who is possessing more than required, he wants to become a beggar again. So I repeatedly say this to American boys, that "By the grace of God you are very much opulent materially. So if you don't take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you will have to become beggar again because we know these two things: sometimes beggar, sometimes rich; sometimes beggar, rich..." We do not know third way. Renouncing and possessing. But both these two things are wrong because you haven't got anything, so what you can renounce? Just like this morning I came here, and they have given me this room to stay. And if I say next morning, "I renounce this," the question will be, "When you possessed this room that you are renouncing?" And if I say, "I possess it," that is also wrong, because somebody has given me this apartment to live for some time. So where I possessed, and how I renounced? But we know these two things only. Sometime we possess. Economic development means to possess. And to become hippie means you renounce. We know these two things. But we cannot possess; we cannot renounce. That is real knowledge. What do you think? Mr. Surface: I'm just enjoying listening. Prabhupāda: No, you must give your opinion. (laughter) You are learned scholars. Our philosophy is that we cannot possess, cannot renounce. So what do you think about it? Mr. Surface: I'm not quite sure what that means precisely. Prabhupāda: Just like this table belongs to somebody else. How can I possess it? And if the table belongs to somebody else, how can I renounce it? Renouncing means if I possess something. But if you have nothing to possess, where is the question of renouncing? And if the things belongs to somebody else, how can I possess it? This is my proposal. You cannot possess other things. And then you will be thief. If I possess other's possession, then I am thief. And if I renounce, then I am false renouncer, but I did not possess anything. So where is the question of possession and renouncing come? But the whole world is struggling. Some group is struggling for possessing, which is called economic development, and some group is trying to renounce it. Just like a rich man's son. Without any, his labor, he possesses the father's immense property. He wants to renounce it. And the poor man is trying to possess it. These two classes of men are working. One is trying to possess, and the other is trying to renounce. There is no other third group. *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: What about those who are just possessing enough to maintain their bodies? Prabhupāda: Yes. Body is maintained by the birds and beasts. The worms, ants, they also maintaining body, but they do not possess anything. So therefore, natural law is that without possessing, you can maintain yourself. *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: You have to possess some food and some shelter. *Prabhupāda: No, no. The food is supplied. Who is supplying food? If there is a hole in your room and so many thousands of ants are coming out, who is supplying food? Are you supplying that "Here is a hole. There are ants. They must be given some food"? Of course, that is your duty according to Vedic civilization. But who is doing that? But he is quite healthy. There are so many fishes in the water, many millions. Who is giving food them? There are many elephants in African jungles. They eat at a time forty kilos. So who is supplying food? This is not the problem. If the bird, beast, animals, fishes, aquatics and cats, dogs, everyone, can get food, what you have done that you will not get your food? You are human being. This is the right conclusion, that "If food is supplied to the elephants and to the ant by some superior arrangement, what I have done that I will not get my food?" Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovidaḥ. Find out this verse. It is not in Bhagavad*-gītā. In Bhāgavata. Jayatīrtha: First Canto? Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Purport. *Satsvarūpa: "Every man everywhere is trying to obtain the greatest amount of sense enjoyment by various endeavors. Some of them are busy engaged in trade, industry, economic development, political supremacy, etc., and some of them are engaged in fruitive work to become happy in the next life by attaining higher planets. It is said that on the moon the inhabitants are fit for greater sense enjoyment by drinking soma*-rasa, and the Pitṛloka is obtained by good charitable work. So there are various programs for sense enjoyment, either during this life or in the life after death. Some are trying to reach the moon or other planets by some mechanical arrangement, for they are very anxious to get into such planets without doing good work. But it is not to happen. By the law of the Supreme, different places are meant for different grades of living beings according to the work they might have performed. By good work only, as prescribed in the scriptures, one can obtain birth in a good family, opulence, good education and good bodily features. We see also that even in this life one obtains a good education or money or bodily beauty. Similarly, in our next birth we get such desirable positions only by good work. Otherwise, it would not so happen that two persons born in the same place at the same time are seen differently placed according to previous work. But all such material positions are not permanent. The positions in the topmost Brahmaloka and in the lowest Pātāla are also changeable according to our work. The philosophically inclined person must not be tempted by such changeable positions. He should try to get into the permanent life of bliss and knowledge, where he will not be forced to come back again to the miserable material world, either in this or that planet. Miseries and mixed happiness are two features of material life, and they are obtained in Brahmaloka and in other lokas also. They are obtained in the life of the demigods and also in the life of the dogs and hogs. The miseries and mixed happiness of all living beings are only of different degree and quality, but no one is free from the miseries of birth, death, old age and disease. Similarly, everyone has his destined happiness also. No one can get more or less of these things simply by personal endeavors. Even if they are obtained, they can be lost again. One should not, therefore, waste time with these flimsy things; but one should only endeavor to go back to Godhead. That should be the mission of everyone's life." Prabhupāda: So this is our mission. We are propagating this. Do you think it is all right? Mr. Surface: Do I think it's all right? Well, it's a point of view. Prabhupāda: No, what we are doing... We are teaching people that "Don't bother about your economic condition of life. It will come automatically, what you are destined to obtain. You better utilize your energy how to get out of this condition of life, birth, death, old age and disease." Mr. Surface: Isn't there room for both? Prabhupāda: This is our philosophy. We are preaching that. Mr. Surface: There would not be room for both? Prabhupāda: Both means? Mr. Surface: For the two. Jayatīrtha: Both economic development and spiritual advancement. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can... Actually there is no need of economic development. But if you think it is required, you can do that. But don't forget your real business. That is our proposal. We don't condemn, but economic development... Just like in America. When I did not come here... Of course, I know that everywhere everything is there. But I thought that "America is very rich, there is no poverty. There is no crime because they are rich." But when I came here I saw everything is the..., as in India so in America. There is crime; there is poverty; everything is there. At least, they are voluntarily accepting poverty, just like hippies. Most of them are coming from rich family, rich father. But he has volunteered to lie down on the street. Why? Why he doesn't care for economic development? Mr. Surface: Maybe he's had too much. *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, but that we see in India. On account of poverty, many men are lying on the footpath. And here also, in Europe, America, we see. Although he is coming from rich family, government is rich, government is endeavoring to take them back to nice place, they will not go. So these three classes of men*-rich, middle class and poor-everywhere, either it is rich country or poor country. Then we have to accept: by nature it is so arranged that these three classes of men will exist. Then the question is "Where is the benefit of economic development?" If these three classes of men will exist anywhere, so where is the use of economic development? Even one is placed in developed economic condition, rich family, rich, he is accepting poverty voluntarily. And there is a big park in Amsterdam, that... You have been there? Brahmānanda: I've heard of it. Devotee (1): It's called the Vondal Park. *Prabhupāda: Thousands of hippies are lying down there. In London I have seen in St. James Park, early, because I go for morning walk, that the police is kicking, "Ho! get up! Get up!" And government has engaged men: "Why you are living like this? Come here. If you have no home, we are giving home." They don't care. Therefore the śāstra says that simply try to make man Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is required. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido [SB 1.5.18]. In other life, either high*-grade life, low-grade life, there was no chance of becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. But the human life there is chance. Kṛṣṇa conscious means, when we speak Kṛṣṇa, God. So that is... There is the chance. So the śāstra says, instead of endeavoring for other things, better you try to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That will solve all the problems. Jayatīrtha: The hippies see that their fathers have not become happy by their riches. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got some reason, certainly. So they refuse to adopt the way of life of their father or grandfather. So they must have some reason. But on the total we can see that these three classes of men*-one in great prosperity, one via-media, and one in want... These three classes of men there are, everywhere, all over the world. Rather... *Guest: Sir, are you familiar with Yogananda's Self*-Realization Fellowship and the practice of recruiting wealthy people as patrons for people who are sincerely interested in following a spiritual pursuit? Prabhupāda: Hm, what is...? *Rāmeśvara: He asked if you were, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if you were familiar with another yoga society founded by one swami called Yogananda. He called it the Self*-Realization Fellowship. And they have a practice to recruit wealthy men as their members. He simply asked if you knew of that. Guest: Do you think that this hinders with their development? *Prabhupāda: No. Spirit soul is the same thing either in wealthy man or poor man. The spirit soul is not different. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, *Guest: The reason why I asked was because other spiritual masters such as Jesus and the Buddha have required first that people give all of their possession to the poor rather than give them to a community fund such as the Self*-Realization Fellowship, the Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, or any other... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is right, because after all... Why to the poor? We say... I do not know whether Jesus Christ, Lord Buddha, said, but generally people are inclined to give to the poor. That, suppose you have got some money. I go: "Sir, give us some contribution for spending for Kṛṣṇa consciousness." He will not like very much. And if I go, ask some money, that "I am going to open some hospital for the poor suffering humanity," he will give immediately. Is it not the general tendency? If I say a moneyed man, "Please give me some money. I will spend it for Kṛṣṇa," he will not give. (chuckles) But if I approach him that "I am going to open a charitable institution for the poor," he will give me. So these Jesus Christ and Lord Buddha has said like that just to try to this, make this man dispossess. But he will not be inclined to pay for Kṛṣṇa; he will be inclined for the poor. The real purpose is to make him dispossess. Unless he is penniless, he will not take to God. So the real purpose is to make him dispossess. But he will not be inclined to pay his money for God. So let him pay to the poor, that's all. Otherwise, if anyone has got money, he should return it to God because it is God's money. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ yat kiñcit jagatyāṁ jagat [Īśo mantra 1]. Find out this, *Īśopaniṣad*. Everything belongs to God. That I was speaking, that we don't possess anything. This big ocean, is it our property? But we are claiming, "This portion of Pacific is mine." How it became yours? Did your father manufacture it? But we are claiming falsely, "This is mine. This is American portion, and this is Japanese portion. This is that portion and..." We do not possess it; we falsely claim it. This is our position. Actually it is the possession of God. God has created this land, this ocean, the sky, the air, the fire. You have not created. So how claim? We are claiming, "This space is our. You cannot fly your plane on this space." Do they not do like that? But how the space came to your possession? You have not created it. This is misunderstanding. I do not possess it; still, I claim, "It is my property." And there is fight. You are claiming something your property, I am claiming something as my property, but none of them belongs to you or me. Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in America there's a great deal of material development but very little spiritual development. *Prabhupāda: Therefore, we have given you the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that material development is very good provided it is added with spiritual consciousness. Zero is very good when it is added with one. Otherwise, thousands of zeros together is still zero. But if there is one, then it increases value. If you have got ten zeros, so together, ten zero, it is zero. But if you add one, that ten zeros means*-some millions? Rāmeśvara: No, billion. Prabhupāda: Billion. So zero is there, and one is there. You add together. Then the value will increase. Otherwise you remain zero. And because the so much material opulence is zero, therefore the hippies are disappointed. It is zero. What they will do with the zero? Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, our parents in America teach us that we ought to be doing good things for other people. Should we be engaged for our fellow people? *Prabhupāda: But that you do not know, how to do good to the people. Just like a diseased man. The doctor has ordered that he should starve. But if you go in the hospital and you take sympathy with the starving patient, "Oh, you are starving for the last three days," if you give to him some food without the permission of the physician, then you will be punished. So he may think that "Oh, here is a starving man. I must give him some food." But you are liable to be punished. So first of all learn how to do good to others. So that is described here. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido [SB 1.5.18]. To bring him to the knowledge of self*-realization, that is good. If you can distribute knowledge to bring him back to his consciousness, original consciousness, that is real welfare activity. Otherwise, if you manufacture something that "This man is starving: let me give him some food," it may be wrongly done, and you are liable to be punished. So first of all, you must learn what is actually good to the human society. Then, if we do that, that is good. In ignorance, if we do it, then we may be liable to be punished. Besides that, your thought is imperfect. Just like you try to give food to some living being, but other living being you send to the slaughterhouse. You do not consider. You put your philosophy, that "The animal has no soul. They are like dead matter," but that is not the fact. The animals also have got soul, and the human being, he has got also soul. The ant has got also soul. Everyone has got. Every living being has got soul. Why you are inclined to do good to the human society? What is the reason? Why not to the animals? Devotee (3): Because we see ourselves in other humans more than we see ourselves in animals. Prabhupāda: Hmm? So...? Upendra: He identifies. Identification. Prabhupāda: Identification. So that identification is there in the animal life also. The animal, dog, also tries to protect his cub. So that sense is not sufficient to be human being. That sense is visible amongst the lower animals. In Kanpur I was sitting within the room, and one monkey came outside the window, and she had her child. So somehow or other, playing, that child entered into my room through the railings, and the mother remained outside. The mother became mad how to get the child. Then I pushed the child out of the room and she immediately embraced, and... The affection is there. You will find everywhere. In the birds, beasts, animals, lower animals, big animals, the same affection is there. If you strike one crow, then thousands of crow will gather: "Caw. Caw. Caw." You have seen? In India it is very... (chuckles) And they will bite you. If you have done any harm to any crow, all the crows will come. Mr. Surface: Were some of the animals destined to survive through the destruction of other animals? *Prabhupāda: Yes. You are also destroying so many cows daily, although you are human being. Do you consider that "Why this cow should be slaughtered?" They are also living beings. So what about the animals? If man can slaughter so many animals daily, then if a tiger kills another one animal, what is the wrong there? That is the distinction between man and animal. Everyone has to eat somebody, and nature's law is one living being is eating another living being. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. So the snake is eating the frog, the frog is eating another small animal or some flies, and the snake is eaten by the mongoose, and the mongoose eaten by somebody else, by cat or by dog. So this is the law of nature. Therefore the human being is suggested that "You should take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Eating is required, but you don't eat like the lower animals. You take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: [Bg. 9.26] "Anyone who is offering Me with devotion and love leaves, vegetables, fruits, flowers, milk, that I take." So we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. So that is our philosophy*-we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Although there is also... Maybe not killing. Because if I take this flower from the tree, the tree is not killed. If I take grains from the paddy... What is called? Bhojadeva: Plant? *Prabhupāda: Yes. So it dies before. All these food grain plants, when the food grains are ripened, they dry. So it is not required to kill the plant. When it is already dead, you can take the food grains. When you take milk, the cow is not killed. The milk is nothing but transformation of the blood. So we are taking milk means blood. The blood is in a red color, and milk is in white color, but it is blood. Unless it is blood, how so much liquid comes from the body? So we take the same blood in a very intelligible way so that cow may live, he can continue to give me more and more, and I take more benefit from the wonderful food, milk. This is intelligence. And because cow blood is very beneficial for health, if I kill the cow, that is not very good intelligence. In our New Vrindaban the cows are giving more milk than others because they know we shall not kill them. They are happy. You'll get from Bhāgavatam... Find out this verse in the First Canto, I think, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī [SB 1.10.4]. Find this verse. [break] Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: (aside:) The windows this side cannot be opened? Satsvarūpa: "... all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion. Due to its fatty milk bags and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk." Prabhupāda: You can open this, these windows. There is no window? Just hear this. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: Close? Prabhupāda: No, open this glass window so ventilation may come. Ah. So? Yes, so read the translation. Satsvarūpa: "During the reign of Mahārāja Yudhisthira, the clouds showered all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion. Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk." Prabhupāda: That's all. Because the cows were very cheerful, the milk was dropping from the milk bag so that the grazing ground became muddy. It was muddy not with water but with milk. So how much milk was being delivered by the cows. Because, the reason is... Why? They remained cheerful. What is that? Second line? Satsvarūpa: "Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude,..." *Prabhupāda: "Cheerful attitude." If cows know. They have got intelligence that "We will be killed." Therefore they are not supplying sufficient milk. They cannot, just like if your mind is full of anxiety, you cannot work fully. So because they are denied this cheerfulness, you are getting less milk. If you keep them cheerful, they will give more milk. This is nature's economic development. Artificially you cannot increase the production of milk. But according to the instruction of scripture, if you keep them cheerful without any fear, they will deliver double milk. So therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is recommended that cows should be protected in the human society. If you want to eat meat, you can kill insignificant, small animal, but don't kill cows. There are other animals-hogs, pigs, goats, lambs or birds, so many, fish-if you are at all interested in meat-eating; *but don't kill cow. Find out this verse from Bhagavad*-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Those who are vaiśyas... Economic development... Vaiśya means economic development. They should produce ample food grains and give protection to the cows. Just like our Kṛṣṇa's life, His foster father was a vaiśya. So he is keeping so many hundred thousands of cows, and Kṛṣṇa was entrusted to take charge of the calves, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. So although They were very rich father's son, still They were taking the calves in the forest for tending in childhood. Still... You have seen in Māyāpur? The small children, they are taking care very nicely of the cows. After all, it is animal. The small child has got a stick, and he has been trained up how to allow them to graze. They have done. So according to Bhagavad-gītā... But that is very nice, that economic development means you produce more food grains and more milk. Then it will solve all posit... There will be no scarcity of food or happiness. Our, these Kṛṣṇa society young boys and girls, they have prepared so many nice things from milk. It is nutritious, very palatable, every..., everything. And we take food grains, fruits, milk preparation, that's all. That is very easily available. You can get enough fruits if you cultivate trees and plants. That is recommended in Bhagavad-gītā. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. What I have given, purport of that verse? *Satsvarūpa: Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya? Prabhupāda: No, kamam vavarsa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. *Satsvarūpa: Oh, yes. Purport. "The basic principle of economic development is centered about land and cows. The necessity of human society are food grains, fruits, milk, minerals, clothing, wood, etc. One requires all these items to fulfill the material needs of the body. Certainly one does not require flesh and fish or iron tools and machinery. During the regime of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, all over the world there were regulated rainfalls. Rainfalls are not in the control of the human being. The heavenly King Indradeva is the controller of rains, and he is the servant of the Lord. When the Lord is obeyed by the king and the people under the king's administration, there are regulated rains from the horizon, and these rains are the cause of all varieties of production on the land. Regulated rains not only help ample production of grains and fruits, but when they combine with astronomical influences there is ample production of valuable stones and pearls. Grains and vegetables can sumptuously feed a man and animals, and a fatty cow delivers enough milk to supply a man sumptuously with vigor and vitality. If there is enough milk, enough grains, enough fruit, enough cotton, enough silk and enough jewels, then why do the people need cinemas, houses of prostitution, slaughterhouses, etc.? What is the need of an artificial luxurious life of cinema, cars, radio, flesh and hotels? Has this civilization produced anything but quarreling individually and nationally? Has this civilization enhanced the cause of equality and fraternity by sending thousands of men into a hellish factory and the warfields at the whims of a particular man? It is said here that the cows used to moisten the pasturing land with milk because their milk bags were fatty and the animals were joyful. Do they not require, therefore, proper protection for a joyful life by being fed with a sufficient quantity of grass in the field? Why should men kill cows for their selfish purposes? Why should men not be satisfied with grains, fruits and milk, which, combined together, can produce hundreds and thousands of palatable dishes. Why are there slaughterhouses all over the world to kill innocent animals? Mahārāja Parīkṣit, grandson of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, while touring his vast kingdom, saw a black man attempting to kill a cow. The King at once arrested the butcher and chastised him sufficiently. Should not a king or an executive head protect the lives of the poor animals who are unable to defend themselves? Is this humanity? Are not the animals of a country citizens also? Then why are they allowed to be butchered in organized slaughterhouses? Are these the signs of equality and fraternity and nonviolence? Therefore, in contrast with the modern, advanced, civilized form of government, an autocracy like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's is by far superior to so*-called democracy in which animals are killed and a man less than an animal is allowed to cast votes for another less than animal man. We are all creatures of material nature. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that the Lord Himself is the seed-giving father and material nature is the mother of all living beings in all shapes. Thus mother material nature has enough foodstuff both for animals and men, by the grace of the father almighty, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. The human being is the elder brother of all living beings. He is endowed with intelligence more powerful than the animals for realizing the course of nature and the indications of the almighty father. Human civilizations should depend on the production of material nature without artificially attempting economic development to turn the world into a chaos of artificial greed and power only for the purpose of artificial luxuries and sense gratification. This is but the life of dogs and hogs." Prabhupāda: Now men are killing their own children. Is it not? Even cats and dogs do not do this. Although they give birth at a time half a dozen children, still they are not anxious to kill them. (pause) So I am coming in one minute. Please sit down. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Why you are there? Mr. Surface: I must leave. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him some prasāda. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: There is so much mismanagement in different parts of the world that there are so many revolutions now in all parts of the world including India, Africa and even the United States. There are so many problems based on the fact that their food grains and milk supply are not being supplied nicely or distributed nicely. Now, supposing that there is a demand that there should be good management for it, how these things should be distributed properly, by what system, so that people can get these things in a way that they can become God conscious and at the same time have their...? *Prabhupāda: God consciousness does not depend on distribution of food. It requires cultural education. It does not mean that one who has got enough food, he is God conscious. The food distribution is not one of the conditions for becoming God conscious. That is wrong project. "If people are given sufficient food, they will become God conscious"*-that is not the fact. But people advance this theory, that "We are now economically distressed. We cannot turn our attention to God consciousness." That is a wrong plea. God consciousness does not depend on any material condition. Ṛṣabhadeva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, earlier you had said that nature provides each species its foodstuff. But in other species other than man we see that it's immediately obtainable. But man has to work for it, and he has to wait for the fruits of his labor. Why is that nature's arrangement? *Prabhupāda: Nature's arrangement... In this material world you cannot eat without working. Even if you are lion-lion is considered to be the most powerful animal*-he has to capture one animal. He cannot think that "Let me sleep, and the animal will come automatically in my mouth." It is not possible. You have to work; this is the material world. So that work is simple work. If you have got land... Everyone has got land. You just work little, and it will produce your food grains. And the food grains will give food to the animal and man. The animal, cow, he will eat the grass, and you will take the grains. Why should you kill the animal? You haven't got to arrange for his food. You produce paddy. The plant, when it is dried, it is good for animals, and you take the grains. Why should you kill him? And he will deliver you. If you protect his life, he will give you nice milk. So you keep animal, cows, and grow food grain; *then your food problem is solved. So if your food problem is solved and your cloth problems is solved, then where is your economic necessity? Then you save time and cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So real business will be how to cultivate, how to become advanced in God consciousness. That the animal cannot do. You are claiming more intelligence than the animals, so use your intelligence in this way. Don't spoil day and night for your economic development. So*-called economic development means as soon as you become stout and strong, then sense gratification. Then you cultivate the culture of nudism. That Los Angeles beach, "Beach for nudies." Is not written there? Jayatīrtha: Yes. One morning one nude man was running. While we were walking one morning, one nude man was running on the beach. Prabhupāda: This is... Devotee (4): They're also trying to establish a beach like that here in Laguna Beach also, Prabhupāda, a nude beach. *Prabhupāda: So without God consciousness, when there is no cloth, then economic development, and when... [break] Refer these verses from Bhagavad*-gītā: amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam... (aside:) Little water. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Go on. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: This is knowledge. Etaj jñānam. The items prescribed by Kṛṣṇa, that is knowledge. And everything is no knowledge. Translation, you read. *Satsvarūpa: "Humility, pridelessness, nonviolence, tolerance, simplicity, approaching a bona fide spiritual master, cleanliness, steadiness and self*-control; renunciation of the objects of sense gratification, absence of false ego, the perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease; nonattachment to children, wife, home and the rest, and evenmindedness amid pleasant and unpleasant events; *constant and unalloyed devotion to Me, resorting to solitary places, detachment from the general mass of people, accepting the importance of self-realization, and philosophical search for the Absolute Truth*-all these I thus declare to be knowledge,..." Prabhupāda: This is knowledge, path of knowledge. Satsvarūpa: "... and what is contrary to these is ignorance." *Prabhupāda: That's it. There are eighteen or twenty items of knowledge. The human society is not interested with those eighteen items, and they are simply interested in so*-called economic development, technology, mental speculation. That is ignorance. That is not knowledge. They do not know what is knowledge. Just like the first item is... What is that? Amānitvam. Satsvarūpa: Humility. Prabhupāda: Humility. So who is teaching? Where is the school teaching humility? This is the first item. Then? Next? Satsvarūpa: Adambhitvam, pridelessness. Prabhupāda: Pridelessness. Everyone is proud. Then? Satsvarūpa: Ahiṁsā, nonviolence. Prabhupāda: Nonviolence. These are the first three steps toward the path of knowledge, and who is practicing this? Nobody is practicing. You are professor of? Professor: Yes, I'm an instructor, yes. Devotee: What subject matter? Professor: In religious studies. Prabhupāda: What is your definition of religion? Professor: My definition of religion? I think religion has mostly to do with the kinds of questions people ask. Religion is the attempt to answer questions about "Who am I? and "Who is God?" and "How do I relate to God?" Prabhupāda: That is nice. That is the meaning. So do the people in general know what is God? Professor: People in general... Today most people have an idea, but they don't all agree. So you can't say that they all have an idea of God. But they all believe they do. Prabhupāda: No, believing is different thing. You can believe anything. But God is one. So God is there, you believe or not believe. Just like the president of your state is there. One may say, "I don't believe in him." That does not mean there is no president. Similarly, a foolish man can say that there is no God, but that does not mean there is no God. There is God. Now who is that God? Professor: Who is God? Prabhupāda: Just like in your state, everyone knows there is a president. And one can enquire, "Who is now president?" Is it not natural? Professor: Is it not...? Everyone knows who the president is. Prabhupāda: No, knows or not knows. Suppose I am a foreigner. I know... Professor: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: ...that there is a president. Then I can ask, "Who is your president?" Professor: Right. Prabhupāda: That is natural. So first of all, the believers, they know that there is God. Now the next question will be "Who is God?" That is advanced knowledge. Professor: Certainly lots of people have different answers. Prabhupāda: Why there should be different...? President is one, and everyone knows he is one. Why there be lots... That means they do not know. If there is... Just like now Mr. Ford is president. So nobody can say, "Now Mr. John is president." Mr. Ford is president. You cannot say, "Mr. John is president," "Mr. such and such is president," "I suggest," "I..." "It may be like that." Why may be? Actually Mr. Ford is president. And one who says, "May be like this," he does not know who is the president. As soon as he says, "God may be like this," that means he does not know what is God. So there cannot be different description of God. God is one. One must know who is that God. That is education. Now, we are teaching that, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." Now it is up to you to test whether Kṛṣṇa is God or not God. But if you know what is God, then you have to accept Kṛṣṇa. Professor: If you know who is God, accept it? Prabhupāda: If you know what is God, then you will accept Kṛṣṇa is God. Professor: Oh. Prabhupāda: If you do not know actually what is God, then you will deny. Or if you deny, then present who is God, if you know. Then you will have to say, "I do not know what is God." So anyone who is trying to study religion and God, they should try to understand our philosophy, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Satsvarūpa: The professor says they have the Bhagavad*-gītā in his college. *Prabhupāda: Oh. You have got this Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is? Professor: Yes, in the library. *Prabhupāda: You can...? You have read our this Bhagavad*-gītā? Professor: I have read it, yes. Prabhupāda: According to Vedic understanding, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. You understand Sanskrit? No. Kṛṣṇa... there are description of the incarnations. There is name of Kṛṣṇa. Then it is summarized. Find out this verse, Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: So now the Lord has incarnated in the form of Hare Kṛṣṇa sound to deliver the atheist. The world is full of atheist. Therefore this movement is there. Professor: It's like the story about the blind men and the elephant, I think. A lot of people know one incarnation and think that that is all of God, and they do not know that that is only one incarnation or is only one manifestation. Prabhupāda: No, incarnations there are many. Many incarnations. There is a verse there. But Kṛṣṇa is the origin of incarnation. He is the original source of all incarnation. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. So as you are teacher of religion, so you try to understand this Kṛṣṇa philosophy. *Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, during the last year I went to many different colleges and universities. And I could see that these professors are very much argumentative. They like to argue. They like to debate. So I tried to start one debating program so that they could come and they could bring their philosophy. And I told them that I could show them their philosophy and how it was defective from the Bhagavad*-gītā. I wanted to know if this was a good program for the universities. Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy? Devotee (4): There were some engineers that came. And they said that everything that we see manifested in this material world is made by the engineers. Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is the greatest engineer. Devotee (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: We say that. But ask the professor that "You are engineer; you are not so powerful. There is another big engineer who has done it. So God means you try to understand who is that biggest engineer." Devotee (4): They were saying that all the highways and all the nice buildings... Prabhupāda: And all the oceans? Here is the highway, and there is the ocean. Which is important? (laughter) You might have created these highways, but another engineer has created that ocean, side by side. So who will get the greater credit? Devotee (4): They say that there's a limited amount of resources here on this planet, that unless we use these resources wisely, then they will all be used up. They say that there's very limited amounts, so therefore they must be careful. *Prabhupāda: But this... Who supplied the resources of this ocean? They say that water is combination of hydrogen and oxygen, so wherefrom this hydrogen*-oxygen supply came? Devotee (4): There is another group. They call themselves Zero Population Growth. So their idea is that there's too many people on this planet. So therefore either they want... What they want to do is that they want to increase the number of deaths... Prabhupāda: Death. Devotee (4): Yes. (laughter) And decrease the number of births. It is called Zero Population Growth, and they are actually thinking like this. Prabhupāda: And who is going to decrease the population of the mosquito? It is increasing. This means real business they are forgetting. Devotee (4): So in every school they have so many organizations. Is this a good idea, that we can have debating programs like this along with selling books. *Prabhupāda: Yes, let them study another line of education. Just like there is religious section. It has nothing to do with the engineering, but there is section. Similarly, in religious section or in another section these things should you study, Bhāgavata. That is good. Śrīmad Bhagavad*-gītā, Bhāgavata. Jayatīrtha: Shall we take your leave now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Rāmeśvara: Jaya, thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Morning Walk -- July 27, 1975, San Diego Prabhupāda: (laughing) You are so rich, you can do it, continually festival: "Come on. Take prasādam. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Just like... What is that? You told me? Continual massage... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Massage parlor, twenty*-four hours. *Prabhupāda: (laughing) Twenty*-four hours. Similarly, twenty-four hours, free prasādam: "Come on." But they are not hungry. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not for that. [break] Prabhupāda: ...trunk as fat as this is, very long, where I saw it? Maybe... Mexico, I think. [break] Rāmeśvara: ...trees that are so fat that you can drive your car through it. They have made an opening... Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Rāmeśvara: And you can drive your car through it. Jayatīrtha: Redwood tree. Those are the trees that are so old, sometimes five thousand years old. Prabhupāda: Taravaḥ kiṁ na jīvanti [SB 2.3.18] . Bhāgavata says that "You are trying to prolong your life. Don't you know that trees live more and more years than yourself?" Taravaḥ kiṁ na jīvanti. So what is the use of such living? A tree standing for five thousand years, what is the use of such living? Therefore, those who are trying to live for many years, they are being instructed, taravaḥ kiṁ na jīvanti [SB 2.3.18] . They are also living being. And what is the use of living? First of all, that... For the same purpose, eating, sleeping, mating, and living for five thousand years, ten thousand years, what is the use? Taravaḥ kiṁ na jīvanti, bhastrāḥ kiṁ na śvasanty uta. [break] This park is very nice. [break] ... śunīcena. We are all trampling. There is no protest. [break] Our man? Devotees: (laughing) No, yoga. Prabhupāda: Yoga. Jayatīrtha: He wants to be immortal. Prabhupāda: No, this keeps healthy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's good for the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śīrṣāsana, it is called, "sitting on the head," Śīrṣāsana. Śīrṣāsana, padmāsana, yogāsana. There are so many āsanas. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't practice those. Prabhupāda: We have no time from sleeping. (laughter) Otherwise, this is not bad. This is not bad. It keeps good health, these yogāsana. Jayatīrtha: So if we have time we can do that? Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not required. (end) Morning Walk -- July 28, 1975, San Diego Prabhupāda: (sound of bird chirping) ...take the fruits and singing morning. They are happier. Rāmeśvara: When we tell people that they may take their next birth as an animal, they say that is all right because the animals are happier than the humans. Prabhupāda: But because you are rascal, you do not know, you can become more happier, go back to home, back to Godhead. That you do not know. (Sounds of birds singing) Just see how. What is this? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the bird that was singing. [break] Prabhupāda: ...there? A small bird! Jayatīrtha: There's one expression in Anerica, "Free as a bird." People think that the birds are more free than they are. Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. Devotee: Also "The birds and the bees." Culminate (?) in sex life. [break] Satsvarūpa: Balboa Park. He was a Spanish explorer. He's supposed to be the first one to see the Pacific Ocean. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayatīrtha: He was the first white man to discover California, I think? Satsvarūpa: Yeah. [break] Prabhupāda: First man to see the Pacific? Yadubara: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Only four hundred years ago. Jayatīrtha: First white man. Yadubara: The Indians were there, of course. The Red Indians were already there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: In California. *Prabhupāda: Everyone was there, but they do not know. (chuckles) The Pacific and Atlantic Ocean is mentioned in Kalidāsa Kavi's book, Kumāra*-sambhava. Toya-nidhim avagahya sthitaḥ pṛthivyām iva māna-daṇḍaḥ. They are all mentioned, Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean. These fools do not know anything. And they say, therefore, "First man to come," as if before him there was no man. Just see. "There was no man. There was no civilization," these rascals' version. What is that bridge? Is that bridge? Jayatīrtha: It's a bridge that goes to one island. [break] Prabhupāda: ...explain; *therefore they bring this theory of chance. But we don't find any such chance in practical life. "There was a fool and he became high*-court judge." Is there any? "There was a fool. He became a high-court judge." Is there any evidence like that? "There was ape. It became human, human being." I am simply surprised how this kind of argument is accepted by other fools. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And if you don't accept it, then they fail you in the examination. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you don't accept and repeat it, then you become failed in the examination. Then you can't get a diploma. Then you cannot get a good job. So they force you to repeat it. [break] Prabhupāda: Field. All of a sudden it became by chance a garden and beautiful, everything. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: El Cid Conquedor. Jayatīrtha: He was a famous Spanish soldier. Rāmeśvara: He fought the Muslims when they invaded Spain. He is a famous Spanish man who fought against the Muslims when they invaded. From Africa, they crossed over the sea and invaded Spain. Brahmānanda: The Moors. [break] Prabhupāda: This has got some meaning. What is this matchbox? There is earth, there is sands (sense?), there is comfort. So we shall go this way or...? [break] It is all vacant? [break] Big demonstration of cow fighting, bull fighting, and kill them. Such a Christian is trying to convert others as Christians! Just see the fun. Christ said, "Thou shall not kill," and they are sporting with the life of bull, and they are Christian. We have to believe. Yadubara: Isn't that somewhat in the kṣatriya spirit? Prabhupāda: Nonsense spirit. Rascal spirit. Yadubara: But sometimes those people get killed when they're fighting the bull. Prabhupāda: But your arrangement is to kill the bull. By chance or by God's desire you become killed. Brahmānanda: It's a very popular sport. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are Christians. Jayatīrtha: I think before the bullfighter goes to the ring, he first goes to the church and prays for blessings that he will be able to do very nicely. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Brahmānanda: And everyone gets drunk. Prabhupāda: Very good preaching. Yadubara: They also have those cock fights, you know, those chicken fights. [break] Prabhupāda: ...begin war with their own children. This is also war. The child wants to come out, and they are fighting, advanced. (end) Press Conference at Airport -- July 28, 1975, Dallas *Prabhupāda: (leads prema*-dhvāṇī) [break] Woman reporter: Are you familiar with the new law in Texas which will affect your school here, and have you considered what...? There is a new law in Texas putting your school here under the same regulations as other boarding schools. And I wonder if you have considered how that will affect your school and whether you will be able to continue here. Prabhupāda: That will be answered by this person. He is in charge of that institution. Woman reporter: We have discussed it, but I wondered if the Swami had any views. Jagadīśa: Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda has given me the responsibility to make sure that we meet the necessary code standards so that the school will definitely go on. That is our plan, to meet all the standards and continue on with our current activities. Woman reporter: Well, the regulation, for example, that there must be a bed for each child. How are you going to... Jagadīśa: Yes, we'll have beds. Yes. Man reporter: Swami, why are you here? Jagadīśa: Why are you here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? He asked why are you here? Prabhupāda: Why? Jagadīśa: Why are you here? (laughter) Prabhupāda: This is my home. (laughter) I have got so many children, grandchildren. So I have come to see them. [break] Woman reporter: Have you any comment about the lawsuit that the sect here is involved in with regard to whether they should be allowed to sell literature and collect donations? *Prabhupāda: Certainly. This is good literature. It should be encouraged. People will become sane, understand what is his constitutional position. Otherwise in your country, the other day I saw in the Times paper, they are very much perturbed, "Crime, what to do?" They are thinking. So if this literature is distributed and people read it carefully, there will be no more crime. They will be all saner to understand, self*-realized souls. At the present moment people are misguided, accepting the bodily concept of life. Jagadīśa: The reporters don't seem to have many questions. If you like you can speak. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Who will speak? She will speak? Jagadīśa: If you like, you can speak or we can go. *Prabhupāda: You want me to speak? I can speak. Shall I speak? Yesterday in San Diego one press representative met me. So I told that America is advanced in material civilization, all comforts of bodily concept of life. But why the American young men are becoming hippies and crazy. Yesterday, I saw, some of the girls came almost naked. So why they are dissatisfied in spite of so much material advancement? They have got enough food, enough shelter, enough clothing, enough cars and everything. There is no scarcity. Why they are disappointed? Can you answer, why they are disappointed? It means they requires spiritual fulfillment of desire. That is the nature. When in the primitive stage of life, a man is concerned about the bodily comforts. And when one is advanced or satisfied*-not satisfied; *advanced-in our bodily concept of life, the next question is about spiritual life. So America is in that point, specially. So unless you fulfill their spiritual needs, they will remain in such disturbing condition. So I compared it just like there are many zeros: one zero, two zero, three zero, or hundreds and millions of zero. All these zeros together*-the value is zero. But if there is one, then one and zero, it makes 10. The ten times of one value increases. Another zero, it is hundred. Another zero, it is thousand. Similarly, this material advancement of America, if it is added with God consciousness, then the value will increase. Otherwise, it will remain zero. You may advance materially as far as possible. but if you don't take God consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then the value of all this material advancement is equal to zero. Nobody will be satisfied. So therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be taken very seriously. It is the finishing touch of American advancement of material comforts. Then people will be very happy, and America is already leader of the world. They will be first-class leader. The world will be benefited, and you will be benefited. And my endeavor will be also successful. Don't keep yourself in zero. Take the one. Then it will be very nice. Just like... You can understand very easily. This life, very important man, but if there is no spirit soul, it is zero. It has no value. However an important man may be, when the spirit soul is out of the body, it is a lump of matter; *it has no value. Anything you take*-this machine, that machine, any machine-if somebody, some spiritual being, some living being is not tackling it, what is the value? No value. Therefore, everywhere this spiritual consciousness must be there. Otherwise it is zero. Woman reporter: Would you comment on the political situation in India now. What do you think about Mrs. Gandhi's...? *Prabhupāda: Well, we are not very much concerned with political situation. But our proposition is*-either political, social, economical or philosophical, anything-without Kṛṣṇa, it is all zero. So far Mrs. Gandhi is concerned, she is inclined to some spiritual understanding. So actually if she becomes very advanced spiritually, then this emergency situation will improve. Otherwise... and it is the public opinion against democracy. So democracy is not very much beneficial anywhere and everywhere. In your country also, you voted Mr. Nixon, democracy, but you were not satisfied with him. That means democracy, ordinary men they select somebody and again they try to bring him down. Why? When he was selected, it means it was a mistake. So according to Vedic civilization, there was no such thing as democracy. It was monarchy, but the monarchy means the king was very highly spiritually advanced. The king was called rājarṣi, means king, at the same time, saintly person. We have got another example in our country-Gandhi. When he was political leader, he was practically dictator, but because he was a man of very high moral character, people took him, accepted him as the dictator. So dictatorship is good, provided the dictator is highly qualified spiritually. That is the Vedic verdict. The battle of Kurukṣetra was there because Lord Kṛṣṇa wanted rājarṣi, Yudhiṣṭhira, should be on the head. So the king is supposed to be the representative of God. So he must be a godly person. Then it will be successful. That's all right. (end) Morning Walk -- July 29, 1975, Dallas Prabhupāda: (in car:) ...and artificially they construct big, big cities. Wrong? Jagadīśa: Wrong turn we made back at the beginning of the street. [break] Prabhupāda: ...coming. Why? Brahmānanda: This is more pleasant. Satsvarūpa: In a newspaper report, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about India, it said that the mass of people in the rural areas didn't even know that there was an emergency rule. They don't... It's so peaceful. They're not affected. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...of people, they do not care for these political things. Even in Gandhi's strong civil disobedience movement, out of the whole population of India, only sixty*-thousand men joined. What is the India's population? Brahmānanda: Six hundred million. *Prabhupāda: Six hundred million, and out of that sixty*-thousand joined, and it became successful. Sixty thousand joined by statistics. Actually worker, I don't think more than ten thousand people. Exactly like Indian village. Here there is no business. They simply reside. Brahmānanda: Yes. [break] (outside:) *Satsvarūpa: ...it's over there somewhere. He's one of the world's richest men, H. L. Hunt. He's a Dallas oil millionaire. Some devotees tried to approach him, but at his house he has servants and... At least the servant took a Bhagavad*-gītā. They couldn't see the man himself. Dayananda: He died. A few months ago. [break] Prabhupāda: ...otogrika? (?) Similar like that. [break] ...dollars? Brahmānanda: Daily. Prabhupāda: Daily. Brahmānanda: Yes. That means about four thousand a month. [break] Prabhupāda: ...of man, why? Why this movement? Jagadīśa: Because the men are exploiting them. Prabhupāda: That is the fact. They are dissatisfied with the treatment of man. The grievance is that they do not get husband, home, children, like loitering on the street. That is their aspiration: they want good home, good husband, good children. That they are not getting. Oh, it is a very big lake. (end) Morning Walk -- July 30, 1975, Dallas Prabhupāda: ...reason it is advised that the father must get the daughter married. Otherwise these things will happen, loose society. [break] ...location of the Hyatt (?) (Hunt?) House is very nice. [break] ...the horse is the most beautiful. Satsvarūpa: More beautiful than the cow? Prabhupāda: Huh? Satsvarūpa: More than the cow. Prabhupāda: Cow is not very beautiful. (laughter) [break] ...in the human society the Jews are most beautiful. Is it a fact? Jews? Yehudi.(?) Satsvarūpa: Each group says that they're the most beautiful. (laughter) The blacks say they are beautiful, and the whites say... *Prabhupāda: No, impartially. That everyone will say, "I am beautiful." Hippies also beautiful. Lavanyaṁ keśa*-dhāraṇam. [break] ...dirty water. Devotee: What is that? Prabhupāda: The water is dirty. Why? Not very clean. Kāśīrama: It is misused. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kāśīrama: The water is not... They don't allow people to swim in it because it is so dirty. Swimming is prohibited. (end) Morning Walk -- July 31, 1975, Dallas Brahmānanda: ...hired these gangsters, professional gangsters to do this. So now one of these gangsters, he was to give testimony, and now he was killed. So they're thinking maybe the CIA also is doing that. Prabhupāda: And who is advising CIA? *Brahmānanda: The president. Nixon used to use the CIA to... If he had any enemy, he would have the CIA investigate that man. He was using it for his personal political purposes. [break] ...testing. In the early 1960's they were testing the effects of LSD, and so they gave LSD secretly into this one officer's coffee drink. And he drank it. He did not know it was LSD, and he went crazy and committed suicide. So now this investigation of CIA has uncovered this information. So now the family of this officer, they are suing the CIA for millions of dollars. [break] ... regular business of breaking into foreign embassies. In New York and Washington they did over 1500 break*-ins, photographing documents, stealing coding machines. Sometimes when they would break in at night into one embassy, they would meet agents of another country who also were breaking into the same embassy, and they would salute one another. (laughter) It's a regular business. Prabhupāda: They will not kill each other? Brahmānanda: No, they respected one another because they were both after the same embassy. [break] Prabhupāda: ...black government is going on all over the world. What they will think of people's welfare? Brahmānanda: They are all against us. Prabhupāda: Simply political gain. [break] Jagadīśa: ...back to the temple we'll be performing āratik to Your Divine Grace. And there was not very much time. I was wondering whether during the time we're performing āratik to you, whether it's proper to be giving out cookies to the children? Prabhupāda: As you make convenient. Jagadīśa: Is that proper? Prabhupāda: No. So we can go back now. Again program. [break] .now? Jagadīśa: 6:30. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] I am not feeling very well. Last yesterday also. Heaviness. I am not clearing my bowels very nicely. Jagadīśa: Is it due to the heat, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I do not know why but I am not... Constipation? And now I'm feeling headache, some spasm. Jagadīśa: Should we cancel the trip this morning? [break] Prabhupāda: ...very hot place. So every year I used to resolute, "Now I shall give up this place," every year. So I was going Kashmir, Darjeeling. Bhavani, that is near Nainital. [break] Brahmānanda: ...just in the hot climate. In the hot climate it is more difficult to digest? Prabhupāda: Maybe. Brahmānanda: Because here it is much hotter than it was in California. Jagadīśa: The prasādam you're getting is all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Not very all right. Constantly change of hand is not good. Brahmānanda: Yes. Upendra can cook for you? Just like Śrutakīrti, he used to use the cooker. He would put up the vegetables and then give massage. And then after massage he would just chaunce the vegetables. He was able to do everything himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone was doing that. So we shall go or wait? Satsvarūpa: After New Orleans, all your stops are in northern. Detroit and Canada. It won't be so hot. Prabhupāda: No, now what is the time? Devotees: Twenty to seven. Prabhupāda: So we shall wait or shall go? Jagadīśa: Well, I've sent the others on ahead to let them know that we'll be early. So it should be all right. Prabhupāda: What is the scheduled time? Jagadīśa: The Deities usually are opened at 7:10. Prabhupāda: Oh. So we shall wait or go? Jagadīśa: Either way. Brahmānanda: What about we go and have the āratik first? Jagadīśa: Yes. Brahmānanda: And then after the āratik, the curtains can be opened. Then Prabhupāda could speak. And after speaking, give out the beads. Because we have to... [break] Satsvarūpa: Can we go now? Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (in car:) Why money? "No. Because I will be able to satisfy my senses more and more." This is the whole civilization. They have no other aim, no other ideas. "How to get money?" Brahmānanda: Another thing that is difficult for health is the constant flying in jet plane. (end) Room Conversation -- July 31, 1975, New Orleans Prabhupāda: Why the prison house is filled up with so many criminals? Guest: Why the prison house is filled up? Prabhupāda: Prison house. In the state. Guest: With so many prisoners? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Of course, many people are committing crimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that committing crimes is his option or government canvasses that "You become criminal and give up"? Guest: His option. Prabhupāda: That's it. It is your option. You rot in this material world or go back to home, back to Godhead. That is your option. It is open to you both ways. You go to hell or go to heaven. That is your option. So human life is meant for selecting-"What shall I do? I shall go to hell or heaven?" And that is purpose. If you want to go to hell, you can go. Guest: What does Kṛṣṇa say about truth? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is truth. Without Kṛṣṇa, everything is untruth. Truth is one. Just like zero is zero. And it is added with one, then it is ten. It is truth. So zero is zero always. Hundred million times zero*-it is zero. But when there is one, immediately value increases. So without Kṛṣṇa, all this material advancement, they are all zeros. But if you bring Kṛṣṇa, then it... that increases value-ten, hundred, thousand, tens of thousands, like that, million, billions. Because the one is there. So bring Kṛṣṇa, and then everything will be value. Otherwise, all zero. You may be proud of so-called material advancement. It is zero, because it will not save you, because tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: [Bg. 2.13] you have to change your body. So you have earned so much millions and billions of money. That's all right. But you have to go empty-handed. The money will remain here. You cannot take that money within the tomb. That is not possible. Then it is zero. You are going empty-handed. You came empty-handed and going empty-handed. You came with zero and you are going with zero. So whatever you have earned, that is zero. But if you have attempted to serve Kṛṣṇa with all these zeros, then you have taken some value. Then Kṛṣṇa will see: "Oh, he has done so much for Me. Let him come." Otherwise zero. What is the value of your skyscraper building and billions of dollars in the bank? You cannot take it with you. And this is called māyā. You cannot take it with you; still, you are struggling hard day and night. This is called māyā. Not a single farthing you will be able to take with you, and still, you are simply happy. They are called "asses." Just like asses, they have so much big burden, but nothing of the burden belongs to him. Mūḍha. They are called mūḍha, asses. For nothing happiness, which he will never be able to take with him. What do they say? They are doing it for next generation. Guest: Posterity. Prabhupāda: He is not interested for himself. He is interested for his generation, which he will kill as soon as he's rebellious. Just see the argument. Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, should everyone move to the temple? Prabhupāda: Why? Devotee (1): Live here? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Invite him. But who is coming here? Nobody is coming. *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are seeing Kṛṣṇa at every moment. Does this mean you are seeing Kṛṣṇa in His two*-armed form playing the flute at every moment? Prabhupāda: What do you think? Devotee (2): I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Then? Seeing means Kṛṣṇa as He is. That's all. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. You never read Brahma*-saṁhitā? Do you read? *Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. What you have of the Brahma*-saṁhitā in your books. *Prabhupāda: Brahma*-saṁhitā it is said, santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Those who are saintly persons, they always see Kṛṣṇa within his heart. Everyone can see if he tries. Why you and me? Anyone can see. Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone. But He is not open to the rascals. That is Kṛṣṇa's distinguish... Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. He is open to everyone, but not to all others, only to the devotee. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Paramātmā feature is in the heart. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): And the pure devotee, does he see the Paramātmā feature or does he see...? Prabhupāda: When you see Kṛṣṇa, you see Paramātmā, Brahman, everything. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. If you see... Just like when you see the sun, you see sunlight also. The sun... We see the sun globe, the sun light, simultaneously. Nobody says, "I am seeing the sun but not the sunshine." Is it? (laughter) He is seeing everything. He is seeing everything. *Devotee (3): But does he focus his mind upon the two*-armed...? Prabhupāda: There is no question of focus or no focus. One who sees Kṛṣṇa, he sees everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. There is no question of imagination. This is fact. What is that? Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Yes. One who is foolish, nonintelligent, he cannot see Kṛṣṇa. Means Kṛṣṇa does not reveal to him. They never see. Next? Satsvarūpa: "For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yogamāyā, and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible." Prabhupāda: If you have no qualification to see Him, even Kṛṣṇa comes before you, you cannot see. You will see Him-"Oh, He's an ordinary man like me," because you are not qualified to see Him. But when you become qualified, you will see Him always. Kuntidevi said, "Kṛṣṇa, You are within and without; *still, they cannot see You." If Kṛṣṇa is within and without, there are two things. Still, the example is given, naṭo nāṭya*-dharo yathā. Just like a friend or a family member playing on the stage, and somebody says that "Your brother is playing." "Oh, where is my brother? Where is my brother?" "He is just playing this part, taken this part." "Oh." So he requires the help. Otherwise he cannot see. Even he sees his brother or father playing on the stage, he cannot see. The example is very nice. Naṭo nāṭya-dharo yathā. He sees his brother at home, but he cannot see on the stage. Everything requires qualification. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for qualifying you to see God twenty-four hours. This is sum and substance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you learn this art, then you will see God twenty-four hours, without any stop. And that is accepted by Kṛṣṇa, that yoginām api... "He is first class who has learned to see God always in his..." Yogi means that. Yogi does not mean to play some magic. Magician also can play some magic. A devotee is not interested to show any magic, but he is interested to see the magician, supreme, who is playing so much magic. The yogis, they are thinking that "If I can play some magic, then so many people will applaud, and that is my success." But a devotee doesn't want anything. A devotee wants to see who is playing the magic, supreme magician, yogeśvara. Yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ. Find out, yatra yogeśvara hariḥ, Kṛṣṇa, Eighteenth Chapter. The supreme master of all yogic, mystic yoga, Kṛṣṇa. Satsvarūpa: *Prabhupāda: Where there is Kṛṣṇa and His devotee, all opulences, all power, all strength, everything is there. Yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo yatra dhanur*-dharaḥ pārthaḥ. Wherever there is Arjuna... Just like Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa were on the chariot. Whole battlefield became victorious on behalf of Arjuna. That is wanted. A devotee must be there, and Kṛṣṇa must be there. Then all opulences will come. That is the secret. Why a devotee shall go to the forest for meditating or acquiring some mystic powers? He doesn't require anything. If he keeps Kṛṣṇa always with him, then everything will... Yes. Is there any purport? *Satsvarūpa: Yes. "Purport. The Bhagavad*-gītā began with an inquiry by Dhṛtarāṣṭra." [break] Guest: Could you speak to us on giving thanks to the Lord? Satsvarūpa: Could you speak about giving thanks to the Lord. Prabhupāda: That is Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa always. That's all. All of us, we are keeping these beads. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (4): Prabhupāda, what can you say to someone who says, "Lord Jesus fed thousands of people fish"? What can you tell them? Prabhupāda: If there is nothing available, what can be done? But when you have got such orange, such nice fruits, and rice and dahl and milk, why should you eat fish? After all, you have to eat something. If such nice foods are not available, you can eat fish. But when very nice foods are available, why should you? In other place Christ said that "These vegetables should be your meat," like that? Satsvarūpa: In Genesis, the very beginning of the Old Testament. "The plants shall be your meat." *Prabhupāda: One must eat something. The nature's law is that sahastānā... Sahastānām ahastāni. And catuṣ*-padam. That is the arrangement by nature's way, that animals, they have no hands. So the primitive life, so they become food for the primitive natives or uncivilized man. They kill some animals and eat. And why civilized man do so? He can produce his food. God has given him land. He has intelligence. Just like our temple commander was telling us. He has got immense opportunity... Just explain to them about you are producing with the farm. Nityānanda: We have a farm and we are producing all kinds of foodstuffs for men and animals. Prabhupāda: This is our product, to produce for the animal, (indistinct). So the animal eats it and he gives you milk. He's not eating (indistinct). He gives you the nicest food, full of vitamins. And you can prepare from milk hundreds and thousands of so many palatable things. That is civilization. And this is not civilization: "Because cow is so potential, so let me eat the cow." "Guru is so sattvic, spiritual; *let me eat guru. Then I will be..." (laughter) This is philosophy. Cow is so full of vitamin, valuable. But civilization is that "Why should you eat the animal? Take the milk." What is this milk? Milk is nothing but the blood. So civilization means let the cow live, and you take the milk, which is nothing but blood. When the mother feeds the child with milk, wherefrom the milk comes? Milk comes from the blood of the mother. Therefore the mother is supplied nutritious food so that she can produce milk for the child. Similarly, cow is mother. What is this philosophy, "Kill the mothers and eat?" "Kill the child and eat?" What is this nonsense? Such crude things are going on in the name of civilization. You are manufacturing billion motor cars, and you cannot manufacture your food? God has given you so much land. This is not civilization. Civilization is how to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is civilization. One should be intelligent enough. Education must be directed in that way. But they do not know. Actually, they do not know it, that "My aim of life is how to go home, back to home, back to Godhead. That they do not know it. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. These rascals are trying to adjust things here materially and becoming more complicated, killing father, mother, and child even. [break] This is not civilization. Human being must be civilized. To know the goal of life and do it properly. That is instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā: "You rascal, give up all these so-called engagements. Surrender unto Me." This is civilization. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is civilization. Then you will be all right. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa... You are engaged in so many sinful activities, as... Don't manufacture civilization. Take the idea of civilization from Kṛṣṇa. That is perfect civilization. The perfect civilization, Kṛṣṇa has giving idea, there must be first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class \en. And less than fourth-class, fifth-class. So, first-class man is described, śamo damaḥ tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam, these are the qualifications, second-class these are the qualifications, third-class, fourth-class. So there are different varieties of men, so divide them according to the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then whole human society will be... There are four division of your body*-the head division, the arm division, the belly division, the leg division. If you engage the head for walking, that is mistake, and if you engage the leg for thinking, that is mistake. Similarly, there are different types of men, combine together, and it will be nice body, the leg will walk, the hand will protect, the head will give instruction, and the belly will get energy by eating food. Those divisions are required. Not that everyone is all. No, there must be division of labor. So that is described, how to make civilization perfect, who is going to hear and take it. Cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. If you can adjust things, you can utilize things, then everything will be useful. And if you do not know how to utilize things, then everything will be useless. Take instruction from Bhagavad-gītā and make everything useful. Then the human society will be perfect. Otherwise you'll go on manufacturing ideas, you'll never be successful. Because nature's law is working, you cannot interfere with the nature's law. That is not possible. You may think yourself very much advanced in science, but nature's law, you cannot interfere. Just like now there is movement, man and woman, equal. Nityānanda: Women's liberation. Prabhupāda: Yes, but how the nature's law is strong. Woman has to become pregnant, not the man. Why equal right? Let the man become pregnant once. Woman became pregnant once. The right. Where is that law? So why equal right? Brahmānanda was saying one day they'll not mix with man. Nityānanda: Yes, they want to become not dependent sexually, even on the men. Just on themselves. *Prabhupāda: So you have to study first of all what is nature's law. You cannot surpass the nature's law. That is not possible. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Nature's law will go on. Best thing is, let the hand... the hand can typewrite, but if you say "No, the leg will typewrite," that is not possible. Take hand's business, take leg's business, and combine them cooperatively. Then the body will be nice. If the leg says "Why hand will type? I shall type," that's not possible. "Legs, all right, you walk, and hands that you type." Then combine together. Then it will be nice. You cannot change the different capacities. There is God's law, nature's law. Let the man and woman combine together, live peacefully. The woman takes charge of the household affairs, the man may take charge of bringing money, and they meet together, have Deity at home, together chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty? That is unity. Combine together, working differently but for the same purpose, for pleasing Kṛṣṇa, then you will become happy. That is equality. Unity in variety. That is wanted. Variety is enjoyment. Variety is not disturbing. Just like Kṛṣṇa gave, all of them fruits, but variety. They are coming from the same source, earth, but Kṛṣṇa is so intelligent*-varieties of fruit, varieties of flowers, varieties of grain, varieties of brain. That is enjoyment. So, take instruction from Kṛṣṇa. Why He is sending so many varieties? He could have given one fruit, the coconut. With great difficulty to chop it you can get out the water, no? There are so many nice fruits. Just see Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. So Kṛṣṇa has made the varieties. Why should you disturb? Let the variety be united, just like these varieties are united, and it looks nice, and if you eat that will be nice. Why you want to stop the variety? That is Māyāvādī. Equality does not mean to stop variety. All the varieties combine together for the same purpose. That is required. Is it not? One must know how to put the variety to look very (indistinct). If all the vases have only rose flowers it would not have been so beautiful. Rose is costly, but the leaves are not costly. But the leaves and the rose fit together, it becomes very good variety. That art is required, how to keep varieties together for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and look very beautiful. This art is known to the Kṛṣṇa conscious person, not to the fools and rascals. Why Kṛṣṇa has made varieties? Why you should try to change? That is lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When Kṛṣṇa has made so many varieties there is some purpose. That one should understand. That is intelligence. You can organize these farms very nicely. Then this devil's workshop will stop. Nityānanda: What will stop? Prabhupāda: The devil's workshop, without proper engagement there is devil's workshop. Devotee: Someday I'll take, later on... Brahmānanda: They have difficulty in understanding how all the varieties can cooperate, because they don't have the center. They don't have a center; therefore to have varieties cooperating is difficult for them to understand. Prabhupāda: Center to please, just like we have kept these varieties of flowers, to please me. Brahmānanda: Because you're the center. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: But they have not center. Prabhupāda: Therefore I have given center, Kṛṣṇa. Brahmānanda: Yes, that is..., therefore we can solve this commotion. Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Give this garland... Center is Kṛṣṇa. That I (indistinct) to say. Bring one, the zeros will have value. And if you get out the one, all zeros. This is our philosophy. (pause) World can be ruled, they believe so also. Is that Brahmānanda: The modern civilization has made everything easy, everything convenient. Prabhupāda: Not easy, difficult. Brahmānanda: Well as far as doing one's life's activities, they make it easy for you, buying in the supermarket, canned food, it's already cooked, you put it in the oven, five minutes it's ready. They have laundry machines. Prabhupāda: That is not very healthy. Brahmānanda: Oh, no. But they have made it so that there's less... Prabhupāda: They are impetus to catch their disease. Brahmānanda: So these are the reactions. Prabhupāda: Yes. The disease is already there, but we have made such a disease that it will be incurable. Nityānanda: They're giving the water out of it to make it dry. Prabhupāda: What you do with this when it is dry? Nityānanda: Put it in a silo, to preserve it and feed it to the cows later. In this silo the grass will keep good for many years without spoiling by heat. Then after it dries a little more this machine, it stuffs it and puts it in a wagon. It picks it up from the field. Prabhupāda: Then what you do with that? Nityānanda: Then you take the wagon to the silo, and put it in the silo, so that it fills. Now you put the wagon with the cut grass up at the bottom of the silo, and it comes out, and loads it up to the silo. *Prabhupāda: So you have got up*-to-date machines... For feeding these animals. Eh? They are made for feeding the animals? Eh? Enough food for them and take milk. Why they should be killed? There is no problem. So teach those yogis about the real idea, like that. Satsvarūpa: Is it all right to use modern machines on our farms? Prabhupāda: As far as possible don't use machine. Let people be engaged. Satsvarūpa: Animals? Prabhupāda: Animal. Yes. *Satsvarūpa: Not gas*-driven engine. *Prabhupāda: Let people be engaged. Machine means one man or two man working... That will mean unemployment. Machine means unemployment. The principle should be that everyone is employed. Either brāhmaṇa, either kṣatriya, either vaiśya or śūdra. Nobody should become idle and gossiping, and sleeping, then utilize... This should be principle. Everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then life is successful. And self*-sufficient. If we have got spoiling living program, these are necessities. Growing, cultivating, producing, there will be not possibility of, and we don't want more than the necessity. If by God's grace we get more then you can make sale, we are not going to work for selling purpose. Then money will be there. How to get money, how to get money? And as soon as you get money, more than necessity, then sense gratification, then this, that, this, that, then you become implicated. Ato gṛha kṣetra sutāpta... ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. As soon as you become implicated with material want, gṛha, kṣetra, vittair, ato gṛha kṣetra sutāpta, children, wife, friendship, then the false ego, "I am this body and this is my property," will increase. For that is material world. People do not know the end of life, or the aim of life. They are misguided, hence the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to give them an ideal way of life. So this is very nice place. We have got small lakes also. Natural we have? Nityānanda: No, you can make them. Prabhupāda: How? How low is the water? Nityānanda: Ten feet. Prabhupāda: Ten feet, oh, just like Bengal. As soon as you dig ten feet there is water. Nityānanda: No, it's ah, when you have a gulley, you build a dam at one end and it fills up with water from the rain, and it stays full. Prabhupāda: Oh, the rain is sufficient here? How many months it rain? Nityānanda: There is no definite rainy season, it rains all year round. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's very good. Winter? Nityānanda: No snow, it's always rain. We can grow vegetables in the summer, and different vegetables in the winter. So the cows they can stay outside all year. They don't have to stay in the barn, it's warm enough. Prabhupāda: Very ideal spot. Develop it and show how we can live peacefully. Nityānanda: This combination of a temple in the city where they can preach and bring people out to their farm is very good. Prabhupāda: ...healthy place. Nityānanda: So mostly gṛhasthas should stay on the farms, or brahmacārīs also? Prabhupāda: No, brahmacārīs and sannyāsīs especially they should preach. And gṛhasthas may produce necessities. They also preach, preaching everyone. Especially for brahmacārī and sannyāsī. (end) Walk Around Farm -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans Nityānanda: Our sugarcane field is down there. [break] Devotee (1): ...all right? Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I have seen all that. Devotee (1): This is kīrtana. (a child? cow?) Prabhupāda: Kirtana? (laughter) That's all right. Have kīrtana. Nityānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is ours? Nityānanda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Where the trees are? Nityānanda: Way over the hill and back down there is all ours. In this field we have the calves. And in this field here we have the big cows. Prabhupāda: It is not now utilized? Nityānanda: Not... No. We are just growing hay. Grass for hay. We can sell the hay in the winter for a good price. Prabhupāda: It is not possible to walk. [break] ...it is born? Nityānanda: This one? Last week. His name is... Her name is Lakṣmī. There is more over here. [break] Bull calves. We are getting more bulls than females. Prabhupāda: Why? Nityānanda: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Then how utilize the bulls? Nityānanda: To plow? Prabhupāda: Plow, transport. You have to engage more men for plowing. Two bulls will be required for each plow. Nityānanda: We can go this way maybe? See the sugarcane? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: This is not taking this yet? Prabhupāda: No. Why? Nityānanda: We just cut it two days ago, and then it rained. We have to wait for it to dry before you can... Prabhupāda: They will not be spoiled. Nityānanda: Yes, if it stays here too long, it will spoil. Prabhupāda: And it rains. Devotee (2): We will take it to the garden. Prabhupāda: Then it will be soil? It will be fertilizer soil? Or no. When it is decomposed? [break] Drinking water? Nityānanda: Milk. Prabhupāda: Milk. (laughter) That is meant for calves? Those milk? Nityānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is this? Nityānanda: The barn. Prabhupāda: No, this part. Nityānanda: Oh, that's the door. It fell off. These are orange trees here. Prabhupāda: Oh. How long it will take to grow? Nityānanda: Well, some down here already have a few oranges, but it will take a few years before they give a lot. They are very sweet kind. [break] Prabhupāda: So small still. They are growing. [break] Nityānanda: ...sugarcane here. [break] Prabhupāda: ...grow very high. [break] ...trees? Nityānanda: Pine trees. Brahmānanda: You can use those for making the cabins, cottages? Nityānanda: Yes. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...natural arrangement. Jungles*-you cut the tree, make your home, and balance you make fuel. And the ground, plow and grow your food. That's all, natural. Jagadīśa: Everything. Prabhupāda: In India still, in the villages they do not know, other than this wood fuel, anything else. They are misusing these trees by cutting, manufacturing paper, heaps of paper, in each house throwing daily. They do not read, but they are supplied heaps of paper and cutting these trees. Simply waste. Now wood and paper shortage all over the world. It takes so much time to grow, and one day they cut hundreds of trees like this and put into the paper mill. And heaps of paper is given every house, and he throws away. Then you bring garbage tank. In this way, waste. Nityānanda: There are some beehives down here behind this building. I have twelve, and every year we can get hundreds of pounds of honey. Honey is very nice because it does not spoil, just like ghee. It can keep for many, many months, or a long time. We can go up here to see the cows if you like. Right now they are milking them. Prabhupāda: So if we go, it will be disturbed? Nityānanda: Oh, no. Prabhupāda: This is one sugarcane each? No. Two, three? Nityānanda: Yes, at least three. People here in the country, they have lots of land, and they can grow the sugarcane very easily, but they will rather go to the store to buy the sugar. Prabhupāda: Because they want to live in the city. That is the... Here if they grow, then they will be engaged here. They cannot go to the city. Brahmānanda: They grow cash crops, make money, and then go spend it in the city. Nityānanda: The principal livelihood of our neighbors is to grow cows for slaughter. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is all over Western countries. Nityānanda: They don't have to work. They simply put some cows in their field, and when the price is high, they sell them. In this way they live. Brahmānanda: What is the attitude of the neighbors to us here? They like us? Nityānanda: Pretty friendly. Brahmānanda: There's a papaya. Prabhupāda: They grow nicely here? Nityānanda: Er, we're trying. I don't know yet. Devotee (3): Would you like to be fanned, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Harikeśa: Just keep the flies away. Prabhupāda: He is very friendly to the small calves, this child? Nityānanda: Yes. That's my boy. Prabhupāda: Oh. Nityānanda: His name is Vimala. Jagadīśa: He chases them all over. Prabhupāda: Just see. That is the difference between animal and man. A child can control so many calves. Kṛṣṇa was doing that. One stick in the hand of a child can control fifty cows. The child is controller of many cows; a man is controller of many children. In this way, controller, controller, controller, over, over, over... When there is final controller, that is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. This is the definition of Kṛṣṇa: "the final controller." Nityānanda: Here is the cows here. We can see them from here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nityānanda: Inside the barn they are milking two at a time. And upstairs we keep all the hay. Brahmānanda: You keep figures on how much each milk per cow every day? Nityānanda: You hear it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Then how the milk will be utilized? Nityānanda: We make sweet rice and burfi, we take the cream to make butter and ghee, and all extra milk is made into curd. So it is all used. Thirty gallons a day. Prabhupāda: One gallon means 6 pounds? Nityānanda: Eight and a half. Prabhupāda: Eight and a half pounds. In Vrindaban they get 1,000 pounds daily, New Vrindaban. What is that cottage? Nityānanda: That what? Devotees: Cottage there. Nityānanda: That's a little house for the pump, water pump. Prabhupāda: This fencing was done before? Nityānanda: Before. This farm was once owned by a person who grew race horses for racing and gambling. Prabhupāda: Racing is also gambling. Brahmānanda: How much did you pay for it? Nityānanda: The farm? 170,000. This field here is millet. It's a grass for the cows to eat. They give lots of milk because they eat this grass. Very nutritious. Prabhupāda: You are not producing for man? Nityānanda: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Any grains for man? Nityānanda: No, we're not growing any grains for man right now. We have fruit trees in the yard. Pears, peaches, plums, figs. Prabhupāda: Some growing? Nityānanda: Not very much. They are very young. We just planted them. In a few years we will get lots of fruit. Prabhupāda: Here the land is mixed with some stones? No. Nityānanda: I think they put this here, this gravel. Prabhupāda: There is no mango tree here? No. Nityānanda: No what? Brāhmaṇada: Mango trees. Nityānanda: We have some growing at the house. Prabhupāda: Vegetables you are growing? Nityānanda: Yes. We have a garden across the street. All these big trees are pecan trees. We have twenty. All this land across the road here that is cleared is ours, all the way up to the trees. Prabhupāda: (reading sign?) "Cow protection and God consciousness. Visitors welcome." That's nice. So, which way we shall go now? Cow protection, they are surprised: "What is this nonsense, cow protection?" Huh? Do they say? "Cow is for eating, and you are protecting?" There are falls?(?) Nityānanda: Falls?(?) No. This is our small garden. Prabhupāda: Fruits and flowers. No, only fruits. What you are doing, flowers? Nityānanda: This is okra. Prabhupāda: Oh, okra. Nityānanda: And sweet potatoes. And we have eggplants, tomatoes, and peppers here. Prabhupāda: They give daily some fruits? Nityānanda: Yes. And then we grow potatoes too. Prabhupāda: Oh, where? Which side? Nityānanda: Well, the spring crop was already harvested. We have to plant the fall potatoes in a few weeks. We'll put them over there by the fence. Prabhupāda: So it is nice farm. This is squash? Nityānanda: That's a cantaloupe plant. Prabhupāda: Oh, cantaloupe. You can grow cantaloupe here? Nityānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: And also watermelon? Nityānanda: Yes. Jagadīśa: There is one big watermelon on the vine up there. Perhaps it's ready to eat. Prabhupāda: We are getting similar land, 600 acres, in Hyderabad. Nityānanda: We can go this way, here. This is all our machinery here. Prabhupāda: Hm. So already some machine idle. You had to spend so much, but they are lying idle. That is not good. That is the defect of machine. If you cannot ply it, then it is dead loss. Brahmānanda: If you cannot what? Prabhupāda: It is dead loss if you cannot work with the machine. Brahmānanda: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: But when you go to purchase you have to pay lots of money. Now they will be rusty with water and gradually useless. How much money you have invested? Nityānanda: Thousands. Prabhupāda: Just see. This is the defect of machine. If you cannot utilize it, then it is dead loss. Brahmānanda: Where are the tractors kept? Nityānanda: One's at the house, and one's in the field. Prabhupāda: So they have to be utilized or rejected, these machines? Nityānanda: Yes, they all have a purpose. We use them from time to time. Prabhupāda: But now they are kept open and the... Nityānanda: Well, we are building a shed to keep them out of the rain. Prabhupāda: In the meantime it will be finished. By the time you finish your shed, it is finished. Śāstre śāstre dal phariyaga.(?) "Some women were dressing to go to a fair, and when they were dressed, the fair was finished." (laughter) Utilize them. Otherwise, while they are in working order, sell them. Don't keep in that way, neglected way. Either utilize it or sell it at any cost. Otherwise they are useless. Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupāda? A materialist or someone who wouldn't know, he may say that when the bull is not plowing, all he is doing is eating. You have to pay money to feed him grain or to grow grain to feed the bull. Prabhupāda: They will grow, and they will eat. Rather, they will help you for your eating. The father also eats, but he maintains the family. Therefore the bull is considered as father and the cow as mother. Mother gives milk, and the bull grows food grains for man. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu first challenged that Kazi that "What is your religion, that you eat your father and mother?" Both the bulls and the cows are important because the bull will produce food grain and the cow will give supply milk. They should be utilized properly. That is human intelligence. This is filling up with paddy or...? No? Nityānanda: With food for the cows. This one has forage or fodder, and that one has grain. Prabhupāda: So everything is for the animals. Nothing for the man? Nityānanda: The cows give us milk. Prabhupāda: That's all? And you are not growing any food grains? Why? *Nityānanda: Er... We've been trying to establish self*-sufficient cow protection program first, to grow our own food for the cows. Brahmānanda: There is no land available for growing rice or wheat? Nityānanda: Yes, but the number of devotees we have to do it... Brahmānanda: But you have so many machines. Prabhupāda: All these machines require oiling and keeping nicely. Otherwise it will spoil. Devotees in distance: All glories to Srila Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. They are starting? Brahmānanda: They are starting back. Nityānanda: Down the road we have fifteen acres of sorghum, grain for the cows. Prabhupāda: And everything for the cows, but what for the man? They will give everything for cows because they will eat cows, other farmers. But you utilize the animals for growing your food. Brahmānanda: The idea is we should maintain the animals, but then the animals should provide foodstuffs for the men. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: And that way there is cooperation. Prabhupāda: Yes. The animals, bulls, should have helped in spite of that... instead of that machine. Then it is properly utilized. And others, they cannot utilize these animals. Therefore, what they will do? Naturally they will send to slaughterhouse. But we are not going to send to the slaughterhouse. Then what we will do? They must be utilized. Otherwise simply for growing food that the cows and bulls we engage ourself? You are already feeling burden because there are so many bull calves. You were asking me, "What we shall do with so many bulls?" Nityānanda: Well, when they grow up we will train them as oxen. Prabhupāda: No, what the oxen will do? Nityānanda: Plow the fields. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. Transport, plowing fields. That is wanted. And unless our men are trained up, Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will think, "What is the use of taking care of the plows (cows)? Better go to the city, earn money and eat them." Which one? Huh? That? We shall get on? Brahmānanda: Yes. (end) Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans Prabhupāda: That is time for punishment. They should build up their character, śamaḥ, damaḥ, fully controlled. When they like, they become gṛhasthas. Otherwise they are controlled. That is brāhmaṇa. For brāhmaṇa it is not compulsory to marry. Kṣatriyas may marry more than one wife. They can take. So all girls must be married. That is... They must...They must have one husband, even the husband has got fifty wives. Then the problem of girls' marriage will be solved. And as soon as one girl is pregnant, she should be separated. Hṛdayānanda: From the husband. Prabhupāda: At least for one and half years. Upendra: At the moment of pregnancy? From the moment of pregnancy one and a half years? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Pregnancy is understood at three months. From that month till further, sixteen months at least, she should not come to be near husband. That is eka*-kadi (?). The child does not live. And they are not inclined to come unless a man induces. So the man, if he has got more than one wife, so man will not disturb her. And she will take rest for the next eighteen months. So after ten months she will give birth to the child, and for six months continually she will take care of the child. Feeding the child with breast milk, the child will be healthy. If the child can take mother's milk for six months at least continually, he'll become healthy for life. Upendra: Where do they send that mother? Prabhupāda: Where they'll take care. Upendra: If the man sends the woman away, where does she...? Prabhupāda: Our aim is not to give help, but not... Generally she goes to the father's house. So you can have separate building for that. Nityānanda: Are you saying that our men should have more than one wife? Prabhupāda: I have no objection. Satsvarūpa: That's a difficult proposition. Prabhupāda: Why? Satsvarūpa: It's not allowed in this country. It's illegal. It's against the law. Devotee: It's against the law. Nityānanda: No, it's a matter of... No one knows who is married or unmarried, but if you have... Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult. Satsvarūpa: Well, the other difficulty, you brought this up several years ago, was that the men who take many wives have to be very select. Otherwise men will be attracted to join our movement for sex life, having different wives. *Prabhupāda: No, no, unless our men are trained up, why you should allow to stay here and to wife. We want trained up men, not third*-class picked-up. We want men who will follow the rules and regulations and fully trained up. Otherwise we don't want. We don't want ordinary karmīs and... And if he agrees to be trained up, then we'll take. Otherwise what is the use of bringing some useless men? He must agree to produce his own food, and work. Our rules and regulations, he must follow. Then it will be ideal community. Otherwise, if you bring from here and there some men and fill up, that is not good thing. This is a training institution, to become devotee. Satsvarūpa: Everything we do, we don't hide it. We show the world what we're doing. I don't see how we could hide that one man had many different wives. *Prabhupāda: If you don't call wife, you can have. The law allows you to keep boyfriend, girlfriend. Then the... Instead of calling "husband," call "friend." That's all. But, er, it is risky and the man must be responsible to keep... To keep more than one wife by trained*-up man is not disallowed. Brahmānanda : But I think they thought that he could get it legally established, at least in the state of California. Prabhupāda: Well then go and marry there. If the state of California allows that, then they all can go to California. Nityānanda: The general public objects to that... It's very... Prabhupāda: Public we don't care. We... What is the public? We have got our own public here. So pub... What is the public? All rascals. They are killing cows and drinking and topless dance, bottomless dance. What is the value of this public? All rascals. I don't give any importance to this class of public, only after sense gratification, that's all. They have no ideals of life. They do not know what is God. What is the value of this public? Mūḍhas, they have been described, mūḍhas. You know the meaning of mūḍha? Devotee (1): Ass. Prabhupāda: Ass. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ paramaṁ mama. Nityānanda: The householders on our farm, they should cooperate and produce the food centrally or every householder should produce his own food independently? Prabhupāda: No. Why they are living in a community centrally? Community means work everything for the community. Devotee (1): Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of the cows, some men... They can (indistinct) responsible. Prabhupāda: No, it is service (?). Upendra: One question I have, Prabhupāda... When I heard about New Vrindaban... I've not been there myself, so I cannot say firsthand, but I've talked with devotees have been there. Prabhupāda: Near. Upendra: One would think because there's land and room for vegetables and there are so many cows that there would be a plentiful supply of milk, but I understand that they use powdered milk. The devotees use powdered milk there. Prabhupāda: Why? Upendra: Because they make all the milk into ghee and distribute it. And vegetables... I heard that at the temple that they use powdered milk. In Philadelphia I questioned the... That carpenter who made your table? He (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Why powdered milk if there is sufficient milk? Upendra: I don't know. I can't say firsthand, but from the man who lived there, one of the householders who lived there, he said powdered milk... Prabhupāda: I don't think so. Devotee (1): I have heard that. Prabhupāda: No. This is not good. Ghee should be prepared where there is no more use. The Indian village, simply by keeping cows, they... Just like Nanda Mahārāja was keeping cows. Similarly there are many villages. So the system is: they have got a big pan, and whatever milk is collected, put into that pan. It is being warmed. So they drink, the whole family members. They drink milk whenever they like. So whatever milk remains at night, they have to convert it into yogurt. The next day they use milk and yogurt also, as he likes. Then, after converting the milk into yogurt, still, it remains. It is stocked. So when there is sufficient old yogurt, they churn it and then butter comes out. So they take the butter, and the water separated from the butter, that is called whey? Whey, yes. So they... Instead of dahl, they use this whey, for capati. It will be very healthy and tasty. And then the butter they turn into ghee. So where is the loss, (indistinct)? You require (indistinct). Satsvarūpa: Only after the whole milk is consumed, then the other... Prabhupāda: Milk you are collecting. So put in the pan. I have already explained. From milk stage to yogurt, yogurt to old yogurt, from old yogurt to butter, and then water, that whey. Then butter convert into ghee and whey, you can use, instead of drinking water, drink whey. Not a single drop of milk will be wasted, if you know how to do it. And you can take as much milk as possible, because ultimately it is going to be ghee. So if you start in the cities, nice restaurant, so ghee can be sold there. They'll pay for that. And they can prepare nice preparations, kachoris, samosa, sweetballs. Or milk, if you don't convert into yogurt, then naturally it will become... What is called? Brahmānanda: Curd. Prabhupāda: Curd. So curd you can send to the city. They will convert into sandeśa, rasagullā and other preparations, and ghee. That is being done. In India the villagers, they do that. They are, keep cows. Convert them into curd or ghee, and ghee and curd sent to the city, they have got regular price for that. There is no question of waste of milk at any stage. One must know how to do it. So you can keep as many cows as possible and collect as much milk from them. You can utilize. And if some of the villagers trained up, they can open nice restaurant in the city. Utilize the ghee, curd, for making nice confectionary. People will purchase like anything. Just like in our Rathayātrā festival, whatever sweets they prepared, all sold at good profit. Your countrymen, they did not see such nice things. And when they taste it-"Very nice." *Brahmānanda: They were selling one gulabjamin for seventy*-five cents. *Prabhupāda: Just see. (laughs) It may cost two cent. And you have got your sugar also. In this way organize. Avoid machine. Keep everyone employed as brāhmaṇa, as kṣatriya, as vaiśya. Nobody should sit down. Brāhmaṇas, they are writers, editors, lecturers, instructors, worshiping Deity, ideal character. They have no anxiety for food, for clothing. Others should supply them. They haven't got to work. Sannyāsī is always preaching, going outside. In this way keep everyone fully engaged. Then it will be ideal. Otherwise people will criticize that we are simply eating and sleeping, escaping, so many, so many. And actually that is the position. Unless one is fully engaged, oh, that is not good. That is tamo*-guṇa. Tamo-guṇa, and rajo-guṇa very active, and sattva-guṇa, intellectual activity. Both of them, active, only tamo-guṇa, not active. (indistinct) Tamo-guṇa means sleeping and laziness. These are the symptoms of tamo-guṇa. Every saintly man can avoid these two things-laziness and sleeping. Of course, as much you require, sleeping allowed, not more than... And keep everyone active, man or woman-all. Then it will be ideal society. Nityānanda: Without a machine how can you make sugar from the cane? Prabhupāda: Hand machine. Nityānanda: Hand machine? Prabhupāda: Yes. Nityānanda: Metal? Prabhupāda: Yes, they manufacture, hand, hand in the sugar cane, two men. Even we can prepare hand machine by cutting the wood. They do that. We are not against machine. You can utilize machine. But we should not allow others unemployed and use machine. This should be point. You can use. Use machine, that's good, but not at the risk of keeping others unemployed. This should be noted. First thing is that everyone should be employed. If you have got many men, then why should you engage machine. These rascals, they do not know. They're taking machine and keeping so many men unemployed. And the welfare department is paying them. They do not know how to organize society. And therefore hippies are coming out. Crime, criminals are coming out. (indistinct) The government is paying for becoming criminals and hippies and prostitutes. And how you can be happy, a society full of prostitutes, hippies, and criminals. Brahmānanda: In New York City they now have one million people who are receiving welfare. Prabhupāda: And all criminals. Brahmānanda: Yes. All criminals, prostitutes, and hippies. Prabhupāda: Because the government is paying for that, and they are now thinking that "What to do about crime?" This is rascaldom. You act in such a way, then repent later on. Brahmānanda: There was one boy from Sweden, he was our devotee. And then he fell into māyā. He returned to Sweden. Now he's getting from the government fifty dollars a week. So he's using that money to buy drugs. So now he's completely trapped. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: He gets money regularly, and he can never get out of the habit. Prabhupāda: In your country also. One keeps a girlfriend, the girl's getting welfare, and he is purchasing drugs, and then their husband goes. I have seen. Some of our students have been. I have seen them. Satsvarūpa: That's very prominent. Prabhupāda: And making trade. That is going on. Brahmānanda: So this is the varṇāśrama system that you are... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: This varṇāśrama college... Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama means everyone should be engaged. There will be no, I mean to say, (indistinct). Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what exactly do the... Do the vaiśyas cultivate the fields or the śūdras cultivate the fields? Prabhupāda: Hm? Jagadīśa: Is it the duty of the vaiśyas to cultivate the fields or...? *Prabhupāda: Actually it is the duty of the vaiśyas, but the śūdras can help everyone, the helpers. The śūdras will help the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, as well as the vaiśyas. Those who have no brain-simply they can carry out order*-they are śūdras. And those who have got brain, they can act as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, or vaiśya. They have got brain to take the initiative. First-class brain, they should be engaged in studying śāstras, writing books and in the worship of the Deity, lecturing enlightened people. This is brāhmaṇa. They haven't got to work as kṣatriya, as vaiśya. They are simply intellectuals. This is brāhmaṇa, with good character. Devotee (1): Distributing books? *Prabhupāda: Yes. And the distribution book can be done by the vaiśya, trade. It is a trade. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Kṛṣi, agriculture, giving protection to cows, and distributing or trading. If you have got enough grains you can trade. Make money. If you have got enough vegetables, you can trade. That is the business of vaiśya. So vaiśya does not require any university degree or any... Nobody requires university degree. That is a false thing. And brāhmaṇa should be very highly learned scholar. So the brāhmaṇas will give advice to the kṣatriya how to rule, and the kṣatriya will levy tax, and vaiśyas will produce food. Then the society will be perfect. Devotee: What kind of tax? *Prabhupāda: Hm? Tax means... Everyone must have some income for maintaining. So brāhmaṇas, they(?) doesn't require any... They will live on the contribution of the society. Because they are giving for free service, so valuable service, knowledge, so they are provided by the kṣatriyas and the vaiśyas. So they have no anxiety for earning livelihood. Things are coming. Just like we are maintained. At least people give to me contribution. So similarly, brāhmaṇa will live at the cost of others' contribution. That is source of income. Kṣatriyas, they'll levy tax. Kṣatriya is given land. Now he divides the land. I have got, say, two thousand acres of land. So I divide to the vaiśyas, one thousand this man, one thousand this man, one thousand. So on condition that "I give you this land. You produce foodstuff or utilize any way. You give me twenty*-five percent." *Brahmānanda: Twenty*-five percent of the produce? Prabhupāda: Whatever you have produced. Brahmānanda: Not necessarily money. Prabhupāda: No. Brahmānanda: But the produce. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: The grains or the milk or whatever. *Prabhupāda: Whatever, yes. "Give me twenty*-five percent. You can utilize the land." So that is resource of the land. Devotee (1): How does the kṣatriya build a palace for himself or something like that? Prabhupāda: That will be done. To keep a prestigious position, they'll have building, servant, soldiers. Otherwise how they will fear? How they'll have respect? Devotee (1): So the kṣatriya is the predominator of the land. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣatriya is the owner of the land. Devotee (1): And he can take the stones and men and build a big, nice... Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: ...palace. *Prabhupāda: They, śūdras are there. Give him his eating, and some hand, pocket expense, hand expense, regular. If one can eat, then he has no demand. So the laborer has to be given to eat sumptuously. "Eat and work, take some pocket..." They will be (indistinct). Not that you call professional laborer and you have to pay twenty*-five dollars per hour. That is nuisance. They'll drink. That's all. And not that everyone should have nice house. Why? What is the use? Go in the village, live simple, produce food. That's all. Eat. Why this electricity and three-hundred story building and...? And then you don't produce anything, eat fish. "And let me eat..." Artificial. It is very easy to take the animals in the city and slaughter. A little vegetable and milk, they are satisfied. Jagadīśa: Even in the culture of Europe they had kings who had a certain territory and then they would appoint men called vassals to take care of different sections and then the serfs would work on the land. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is system, whole world. They were called... In India they were called zamindars, Mohammedans, and the Hindu zamindars, small kings. The zamindars are called king also. Anyone who owns land, he is called king. Devotee (1): Just like Nanda Mahārāja, he also had land. Nanda Mahārāja. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He was therefore called king. But he was a vaiśya. He engaged his land for agriculture and cow keeping. And Kṛṣṇa took charge of the cows, the calves, although still calf, He, (indistinct) This is the system. He was going with the calves whole day, playing with the boys and taking care of the cows, in the evening come back. Mother then washes and bathes and gives nice food. And immediately goes to sleep. And Kṛṣṇa is clever. At night He goes to the gopīs. (laughter) Then mother Yaśodā did not know, when she thought, "My good son is sleeping." And the gopīs also would come at a place and they'll dance. This is called life, childhood life. And when He was grown up, then He was brought to, I mean to say, Mathurā and He fought with His maternal uncle, killed him, and then His father Vasudeva, took care, sent Him to, what is that? Sāndīpani Muni. He was educated. He was learning every subject every day. Then He was taken to Dvārakā, married so many queens, and became king. In the Kṛṣṇa's life, He's always busy. Kṛṣṇa... You'll never find from the very beginning of His life He's busy killing Putana, Aghasura, Bakasura, and His friends, they are confident. They'll enter into the mouth of Aghasura. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is there. He will kill." This is Vṛndāvana. There is no need and I don't find in Bhāgavata big factory and slaughterhouse, no. Nothing. The whole atmosphere is surcharged with sinful life. How people will be happy? Now they are coming to crimes and hippies and so many things, problems, diplomacy, CIA and what other? So many unnecessary waste of energy, time, and money. Vicious condition. Better give up city. Make Vṛndāvana, like this. City life is abominable. If you don't live in the city, you don't require petrol, motor car. It is no use. They may criticize that "You are going to the farm in a car." So for the time being, there is no vehicle. Otherwise bullock cart*-where is the difficulty? Suppose you are coming, one hour, and it takes one day. And if you are satisfied, such life, there is no question of moving. Maybe local moving, from this village to that village. That is sufficient, bullock carts. Why motor car? Drive here and park problem. Not only park problem, there are so many things. There are three thousand parts, motor car. You have to produce them, big factory. Satsvarūpa: Insurance. Prabhupāda: Insur... So much! Everyone is being (indistinct). We do not decry, but we point out, "In this way our valuable time of life is being wasted." They say it is primitive life, but it is peaceful life. We want peaceful life and save time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not primitive. That is intelligent life. Satsvarūpa: In order to evidence this, should we consider that we have to act as kṣatriyas or shall we just preach and try to get others... *Prabhupāda: No... Kṣatriyas, I have already explained who is brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya according to guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13], as you work, as you are fit for. If you are fit to become brāhmaṇa, become brāhmaṇa. If you are fit to become kṣatriya, become kṣatriya. If you are fit to become śūdra, do it. Three... Then... And a man who cannot become fit for any other purpose, he is śūdra. That's all. "Help. Help the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and take your food and little pocket expense. That's all." Little pocket expenditure. But in our society we don't require, but even if it is required we can give. Brahmānanda: So eventually we should divide up our society in this way? Our members... *Prabhupāda: Yes, just to show people how to... The first*-class men, brāhmaṇa, second-class, kṣatriya, third-class, vaiśya, fourth-class... Satsvarūpa: But all in our society are Vaiṣṇavas. Prabhupāda: That is our real position. This is for management. Nityānanda: How many kṣatriyas can I have on this farm? How many kṣatriyas can we have on one farm? Prabhupāda: I told. Find out who is going to be kṣatriya. Then... Take your time (?). Nityānanda: You can have more than one? *Prabhupāda: No, no. (Why not??) There is no rule. As according to the work, if people are interested to work as vaiśya, let them become vaiśya. If he is intelligent, if he wants to work as brāhmaṇa, let him work as brāhmaṇa. Let him work as kṣatriya. And the fourth*-class, let him work as śūdra. So the management should see that nobody is unemployed or not engaged, men, women. Woman can take care of the milk products or spining (spinning). And śūdras can be engaged for working as weaver, as a blacksmith, a goldsmith. There are so many things. Jagadīśa: Cobbler? *Prabhupāda: Cobbler is less than śūdra. Yes. Cobbler means when the cows die, the cobbler may take it. If he wants, he can eat the flesh, and he can utilize the bone, hoofs. He can prepare... He gets the skin without any price. So he can make shoes and he'll make some profit. And because he is cobbler, he can be allowed to eat meat, fifth-class... Not that "Professor such-and-such," and eating meat. This is the degradation of society. He is doing the work of a brāhmaṇa-teacher means brāhmaṇa-and eating meat-Oh, horrible! Śyāmasundara? So make, organize. I can give you the idea, but I'll not live very long. If you can carry out, you can change the whole... Especially if you can change America, then whole world will change. Then the whole world... And it is the duty because they are kept in darkness and ignorance, then the human life is being spoiled. These rascals, because they do not know how to live... Andhā yathāndhair... They are blind, and they are leading... Others are blind, and they are leading and they, all of them, going to ditch. So it is the duty. There is... Caitanya has explained, para-upakāra. Save them. If it is not possible to save everyone, as many as possible... This is human life. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to save others who are in the darkness. It is not a profession: "Now, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is my profession. I'm getting very easily food and shelter." Just like the Indians, they are doing, a profession, say another means of livelihood. Not like that. It is for para-upakāra, actually benefiting the others. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased: "Oh, he is trying." 'Cause Kṛṣṇa personally comes for doing this benefit to the people, and if you do, then how much Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Then? Just like I am traveling in my centers, and if I see that my students, my men are doing very nice, everything is going nice, how much pleased I will be, that I'll save my labors and now write books for the rest of my time. Similarly, if Kṛṣṇa sees that you are, on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, you are trying to save these rascals, then He'll be very (indistinct) with you. They are rascals. The leaders are rascals and the followers are rascals and they're all going to hell. Nature's law is very strict. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot avoid it. Nature is all-powerful. Kṛṣṇa has given: "You work in this way." She'll work. She'll work. She'll punish. As soon as there is little discrepancy*-you have eaten, eaten more than is necessary-indigestion. "Indigestion, starve." This is nature's law. Nature will act. But you have to (indistinct) them with knowledge that "You don't do this. Otherwise you will be under the control of nature life after life. Simply miseries." Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Vaiṣṇava's qualification is para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. He is unhappy by seeing others' distress. This is Vaiṣṇava. (end) Car Conversation -- August 3, 1975, Detroit *Prabhupāda: "Money means happiness." This is the civilization. And after getting money, drink wine and topless, bottomless, and go to hell." That's all. This is their position, mūḍha, rākṣasa, thinking that "I am living this fifty years or hundred years so luxuriantly. That is the fulfillment of life." Because he does not know the life is eternal, one spot he is taking very important. The meaning of life, what is the aim of life-"Don't bother. Enjoy." And what is that enjoyment? Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukham [SB 7.9.45]. Is that enjoyment? [break] ...used in the Bhagavad-gītā, mūḍha, it is very appropriate. No knowledge. Not only here, throughout the whole universe, even in the upper planetary system, they are also engaged in the same foolishness. Greater fool and a smaller fool. [break] ...sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. That part is Canada? Ambarīṣa: Over here where the lights are, that is Canada. Prabhupāda: Oh. Ambarīṣa: There is a city over there called Windsor. Prabhupāda: This is a...? This is a...? Brahmānanda: This is Detroit there. We are now on an island, and Canada is there. Prabhupāda: Real Detroit there. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Everything belongs to God, Kṛṣṇa. And we are sons of Kṛṣṇa. [break] I came this side last time when I came. You were there? Jagadīśa: In Detroit? Yes. Prabhupāda: This river side, did I not come? Jagadīśa: We came to this park last time, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. I remember. The river is navigable. Big, big ship can go. Ambarīṣa: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...St. Lawrence? Jagadīśa: No. Detroit River. Prabhupāda: And St. Lawrence is different river. Jagadīśa: St. Lawrence is near Montreal. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...given so much property. Use it properly. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Be happy. "No, we don't happiness. At the same time, we aspire after happiness." [break] ...bird? Jagadīśa: Seagulls. Prabhupāda: Bird? It is a bird? Jagadīśa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. (hums "śrī kṛṣṇa*-caitanya doyā koro more") [break] Canada is good or America is good? Which one is good? Brahmānanda: What's the economic position in Canada? Prabhupāda: No, economic or not... Brahmānanda: I think many Canadian young men, they come to America for jobs? No? Jagadīśa: Many Americans go to Canada. Prabhupāda: Why? Jagadīśa: It's more peaceful. Prabhupāda: Our Jayapatāka, he is American. He went to Canada. Baradrāj is Canadian. Brahmānanda: Baradrāj, yes. Prabhupāda: And he has come to America. So there was no war between Canadian and American? In the history? Jagadīśa: Before the countries actually took their present names and boundaries there were some wars between the French and English. The French and the English settled in this area of North America. Sometimes they fought. Brahmānanda: What percentage of the popu... Prabhupāda: Formerly Canada was also American? Jagadīśa: No. Brahmānanda: What percentage is French in Canada? Jagadīśa: About 15 to 20%. In the province of Quebec it is 100% French. Satsvarūpa: There's a fawn, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: A baby deer. Prabhupāda: Oh. Ambarīṣa: I never expected to see that here. Jagadīśa: There were two back there. Prabhupāda: There is peacock also? No. Jagadīśa: No. Ambarīṣa: Possibly in the zoo. [break] Prabhupāda: ...people, just like China or India. The American invite them, "Come here. Grow your food." Immediately world solution. But they won't... "No, we shall keep it jungle. Still, we shall not allow you to come here." [break] ...come here to hunt. No? Jagadīśa: No. Ambarīṣa: I think they are protected. [break] Prabhupāda: ...those who were killing tigers and not that, by making arrangement from behind, no. Brahmānanda: Ah, they would come face to face. *Prabhupāda: Yes, face to face. Yes. Where there is tiger, a kṣatriya, would meet him with a sword. That's all. "Come on. You attack and be killed." Even twenty years before, the king of Jaipur, every year he should go in the forest and kill one tiger personally. And the dead tiger will be brought in procession. He'd be given... Just like a prince or king dies*-his body is taken in procession-tiger would be brought that way. Both of them, kṣatriyas... So the tiger should be given the honor of a prince. [break] ...means enemy is going out of fear of life and showing his backside, then he will not be killed. [break] ...into Canada? Brahmānanda: No, that's Detroit. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is Detroit. Brahmānanda: This part is Canada, there. Prabhupāda: In Canada they grow large quantity of wheat? Jagadīśa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Brahmānanda: America is now selling wheat to Russia again. Prabhupāda: Oh. And what exchange they are getting? Brahmānanda: I don't know how they pay for it. They pay for it in dollars. Prabhupāda: Now they are no more enemies? Brahmānanda: They are trying very hard to be friends. Prabhupāda: Who is trying more? America? Brahmānanda: I think so. Ambarīṣa: Yes. They just had a big conference in Finland. They all signed... All the heads of state of the Western countries signed a document saying that they would respect each others' boundaries. Prabhupāda: Russian boundary, American boundary meets there. What is that? The corner? Jagadīśa: Alaska? Prabhupāda: Alaska. That boundary? No. Brahmānanda: No. This is in regards to Europe, isn't it? Jagadīśa: Eastern Europe. America finally agreed to recognize that... Prabhupāda: East Berlin. Jagadīśa: Eastern Europe is under Russian dominance and should stay that way. Prabhupāda: So the Eastern countries, they agree? Brahmānanda: Well, they don't have much opportunity to disagree. Jagadīśa: Actually, the Russians were the host of the conference. Brahmānanda: And they received the benefit. Prabhupāda: That means they are commanding. Brahmānanda: Recently one famous author came to America. He was a freedom fighter, freedom author. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda knows about him. Jagadīśa: Solzhenitsyn. Brahmānanda: Solzhenitsyn. Did you see him when you went to Moscow? Śyāmasundara was saying. Prabhupāda: No. There was proposal. Brahmānanda: He talks so much, Śyāmasundara. He told a whole story, that you went outside Moscow to some colony, artist colony. He was living there. Prabhupāda: I think Śyāmasundara went to see him. Brahmānanda: Oh. Anyway, he came to America, but President Ford refused to see him. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Brahmānanda: Because he was afraid. He was advised by Kissinger that "If you see him, then the Russian leaders, they will become angry upon you." So he refused to see him. So this received a great deal of criticism in America, that "We are for freedom and here he is coming, freedom fighter, and you refused to see him simply to pacify the Russian leaders." [break] Prabhupāda: ...was a fault? Satsvarūpa: His fault is that he spoke out against the whole Russian... Brahmānanda: He speaks very strongly, condemns the Russian system. Prabhupāda: Yes. Russian, it is terrorism. Brahmānanda: Yes. And he says that America should not become, try to become friendly, but should try to defeat them. Prabhupāda: So Russian government did not take any step against him? Brahmānanda: They exiled him. He was too famous to... If they persecuted him, he was too famous. It would have brought a lot of criticism against them, so they exiled. Prabhupāda: Asked him to go out. Brahmānanda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: He is officially a nonperson in Russia. Brahmānanda: He has no longer any existence. Jagadīśa: The Americans are playing right into their hands because now the Americans won't meet the man. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: The Americans should have taken advantage and given the man a great welcome, but they refused to see him. [break] Prabhupāda: ...God conscious or he is another edition? Brahmānanda: He has some leanings toward some mysticism. Satsvarūpa: Yes. His philosophy is... Dr. Wolf sent you a clipping on it when you were in Bombay. He wants that people should just live on the land and raise crops and live in a simple way like that and, yeah, worship God. Brahmānanda: There is even some talk that he was wanting to join a monastery and live a life of austerity and contemplation. Jagadīśa: He also favors a monarchy, a religious monarchy. Prabhupāda: That is my philosophy. Brahmānanda: Mahendra in Philadelphia was trying to arrange a meeting with Your Divine Grace and him. There wasn't time. [break] Prabhupāda: He is American? Jagadīśa: I don't know. [break] Brahmānanda: Switzerland is his home. [break] ...in this agreement that they signed in Finland was that Russia has pledged to make it easier for granting visas for families, members who are outside of Russia so that they can come to Russia and visit their family members. Prabhupāda: Oh. Brahmānanda: So this will be good for our, what is her name? That devotee? Jagadīśa: Mālatī? Himāvatī? Brahmānanda: No. That girl devotee. Prabhupāda: Mandakini. Brahmānanda: Mandakini. [break] Prabhupāda: ...cious animals also. Brahmānanda: Here? Ambarīṣa: The black people from Detroit. (laughter) Brahmānanda: They come here? Ambarīṣa: Yes. It's a very dangerous park. Prabhupāda: No, black? Brahmānanda: The negroes from Detroit, they are the fierce animals that come here at night. Prabhupāda: They come? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: At night? Why? Jagadīśa: Drink. Brahmānanda: Drinking and sex. Prabhupāda: So why the Americans gave them freedom? Ambarīṣa: They thought they were being humanitarian. Prabhupāda: And now they are afraid of them. Ambarīṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is a redundant house. (?) Brahmānanda: I think it stopped raining now. Prabhupāda: No, it is past seven. (end) Morning Walk -- August 4, 1975, Detroit Prabhupāda: Big fish? (laughter) Ambarīṣa: That's a catfish. Prabhupāda: Eh? Ambarīṣa: A catfish. Prabhupāda: Cat? *Brahmānanda: A very low*-class fish. It eats the stool of the other fish. Prabhupāda: Oh. Black? It is black? Mādhavānanda: Yes. Black. Yes. Prabhupāda: We call magur mach. One who cannot digest anything, he is recommended to eat this fish, magur mach. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. One living entity is the life of another living entity. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mādhavānanda: Is it wet? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then? Satsvarūpa: Ambarīṣa? Is there another way we can go? It's wet. Ambarīṣa: We can go back around in the road and then walk along that road over there. (Devotees chanting japa) [break] Prabhupāda: Grass is coming out. Where is the chemical? How the grass is coming out from the stone side? Harer nāma harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] ...he will go? Śrī Govinda: Around the island. Right around the island. Prabhupāda: Very fast going, but where he will go? [break] ...tory? Brahmānanda: Admiral Perry. Satsvarūpa: He defeated the British in 1812. Brahmānanda: Oh, he's an American. Prabhupāda: Admiral Perry. Brahmānanda: Admiral Perry. He defeated the British in the War of 1812. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...church tower? Brahmānanda: None of our men have ever been here, I don't think. Prabhupāda: We shall go that way? [break] ...piece of grass coming out. Another. [break] So where is Canada? Mādhavānanda: Right there. Prabhupāda: That side. (end) Morning Walk -- August 5, 1975, Detroit Prabhupāda: ...tree you collected the dantana. Brahmānanda: Which tree did you collect the twigs from? Ambarīṣa: Oh, over by your apartment. Prabhupāda: No, no. What is that tree? Ambarīṣa: It was a fir tree. Fir wood. It's a type of pine tree. Prabhupāda: Oh. It is good. Ambarīṣa: OK. Jaya. (laughter) Prabhupāda: This tree is very common? Ambarīṣa: Yes. There are quite a few around Michigan. Prabhupāda: So you have seen the tree? Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You collect the wood. [break] ...monkey in this country? Ambarīṣa: No, no wild monkeys. Brahmānanda: Only civilized monkeys. (laughter) Ambarīṣa: We(?) are living in the cities. Prabhupāda: At least civilized man's forefather. [break] ...bigger than monkey. You remember? We were walking in that park? Brahmānanda: Yes. Oh, yes. Many were in the trees, jumping. [break] *Prabhupāda: Birds who eat monkey. You know that? I have seen in Los Angeles zoo, monkey*-eating bird. They capture the monkey by the neck and drop it. And when it falls down it dies, and meat. And I have seen one statue in the Central Park. They are catching goats-eagle. And there are big eagles. They catch up elephant. [break] Satsvarūpa: Just some person who wants(?) to glorify himself, Dudder.(?) [break] A boy will write his name and his girlfriend's name on some tree. Prabhupāda: Oh. Brahmānanda: So their love will live as long as the tree. Maybe they will also become trees. [break] Prabhupāda: ...thinks of woman at the time of death, he becomes woman. And if a woman thinks of man at the time of death, she becomes man. [break] ...afraid of men? Ambarīṣa: I don't think that they will let you go too close, but I don't know... Someone told me yesterday that people come out here and shoot them with bows and arrows and take them home and eat them. So they are not safe even here. [break] Brahmānanda: ...interested to see us. Prabhupāda: Hm? [break] Brahmānanda: ...deer. They are just off the road. Prabhupāda: Oh. "No standing"? Brahmānanda: For the cars. The cars should not remain here. Prabhupāda: Car is "parking," they say? Or "standing"? Brahmānanda: "Standing" means if the person remains inside. [break] *Ādi*-keśava: I spoke to Tamāla Kṛṣṇa on the phone the other day, and he asked me to tell you that we're sending 64,000 to your book fund for this month. And he said also he promises you 100,000 per month by the end of the year. Prabhupāda: Very good news. (aside:) Good morning. [break] *Ādi*-keśava: ...and to tell you that he will be distributing over fourteen thousand of your big books every month, 125,000 of your Back to Godheads, and at least ten thousand of your medium size books, like the Kṛṣṇa trilogy book or the Beyond Birth and Death, those books. Prabhupāda: So he is going over Tripurāri? *Ādi*-keśava: Well, Tripurāri is also with us. Prabhupāda: Oh. Including both. *Ādi*-keśava: Yes, both. Now, what is happening, Tripurāri is training some of our men in the airports. He is training nine new men to distribute big books in the airports, men who were before distributing only the magazines. Now they will go to the airports and learn how to distribute the big books. And also some of Tripurāri's men have taken over the leadership of our parties to help the new men to distribute also. So that way they are cooperating. (end) Morning Walk -- August 6, 1975, Detroit Prabhupāda: What is his mentality? [break] There is tiger. [break] ...interior village in Bengal, there are tigers. Orissa also. Brahmānanda: In Los Angeles city they have coyotes, like a wolf, and they go around eating the pet cats and dogs. Prabhupāda: Oh. Brahmānanda: People are very upset. Prabhupāda: In the city? Brahmānanda: Yes. In the residential areas especially. [break] Prabhupāda: ...hiding? Brahmānanda: Yes. But they are becoming even more and more bold. Even during the day now they are coming, and they'll go in someone's... On the lawn there will be a dog playing or a cat, and... (laughter) Prabhupāda: Those animals sometimes kill children also, small children. [break] ...padaṁ yad vipadam: "Every step there is danger." This is place. [break] *Ādi*-keśava: Here in this city they are not so much worried about the wild animals. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Ādi*-keśava: They are not so much worried in this city about the wild animals, but more about their neighbors, because here more people are killed every day than anywhere else in the country. Prabhupāda: By the neighbors. *Ādi*-keśava: Yes. [break] Brahmānanda: ...heard one report that the mayor of this city, he prevented a race riot. He personally prevented there being a race riot. Recently one white man killed a black man. So the blacks then were attacking his shop, and the mayor personally came and subdued the crowd. He was able to prevent the riot. Prabhupāda: Recently? Brahmānanda: Yes. [break] *Ādi*-keśava: ...see that in those deer up there, that the one with antlers, the horn coming out of his head, he is the male. He thinks he is in charge of all of the females. He will fight anyone who comes after them, any other deer who comes after them. And he thinks, "I am so strong. I am so brave." He tries to protect them all and chase them away. That one in the center there. Devotee (1): It looks like they've all assembled to see you. Prabhupāda: There's a big. [break] Brahmānanda: We used to go hunting these, with big guns, that innocent animal. Prabhupāda: Hero. Big hero. (laughter) [break] ...was telling that here also people come and... Brahmānanda: With bow and arrow, he was saying. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is allowed? Ambarīṣa: No. It is against the law. *Ādi*-keśava: When we were coming over here, we were discussing how in this whole park, there is this big huge park, and only two or three men maintain the whole park because they don't have enough money to pay them. Yet if you go to the street not so far down from the temple, there are so many men just sitting in the street doing nothing all day long. And yet they say there is a shortage of men to work in this place to make it nice. Prabhupāda: It is defective training, bad civilization. They cannot employ everyone. [break] ...religion stresses that everyone should be engaged. No one should remain idle. That is the government's duty. Bad government. *Ādi*-keśava: But the government says it is every man's freedom to work or not to work. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is his irresponsible government: "It is man's freedom*-he may eat or may not eat." It is saying like that. Ambarīṣa: They would rather not work if they don't have to. Prabhupāda: Why we are working? Eh? Why we are not for that freedom, that "We shall not work"? Why we have engaged ourself for working? *Ādi*-keśava: For Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So therefore must be the real center. Nobody is paying us any salary, superficially. But why we are working? [break] Therefore the slavery was there-"You must work." Those who are śūdras will not work. Therefore the slavery was there. [break] *Ādi*-keśava: In this country, when they had the slavery, the masters were not qualified either. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the defect. That is the defect. Either the master is defective or the servant is defective or the system is defective. That is material world. Doṣa-catuḥsthānī, four faults: mistake, illusion, cheating, and imperfectness. [break] ...the struggle for existence*-one mistake after one mistake, one illusion after one, one imperfectness after another. Like that, it is going on. [break] Mādhavānanda: It's our duty in society to show everyone how to work for Kṛṣṇa and become happy in life. *Prabhupāda: That is yajña. To work for Kṛṣṇa means yajña. Yajñarthe karma: "For yajña, performing yajña, one has to work." To work for Kṛṣṇa means yajña. That is performance of yajña. [break] ...Communistic idea is borrowing this idea from... But because they are imperfect, they have made center, state. And because it is imperfect, it is not successful. They have made center the state. [break] Tamo*-guṇa means laziness and sleep. The śūdras, they are in laziness and sleep. So if they have got something to eat, they will not work. Laziness. Or eat more and sleep. This is tamo-guṇa. And rajo-guṇa means they are working for sense gratification. That is also useless. Tamo-guṇa is laziness and sleeping, and rajo-guṇa means working foolishly or for sense gratification. And sattva-guṇa means they know how to work. And therefore above this sattva-guṇa they become devotee, work for Kṛṣṇa. So without working for Kṛṣṇa, everyone is under the spell of these modes of material nature. And there is no training how to work for Kṛṣṇa. That is the defect of modern civilization. *Ādi*-keśava: Sometimes people criticize us, saying we are teaching everyone how to do nothing, that we are teaching them about God, but how are we going to teach anyone to practically survive in the world? Sometimes they say like that, that we don't have any practical instruction as well. Prabhupāda: Practical? What is not practical? We are not eating? We are not sleeping? *Ādi*-keśava: Yes, they are saying, "Oh, when will you learn to do a trade? When will you learn to perform business, or when will you learn to become a doctor, if you are always studying..." Prabhupāda: But you are doctor already. Why shall I become doctor? You serve me. We serve you by giving you Kṛṣṇa consciousness; you serve me as a doctor. What is the wrong there? Parasparārtham. I am for you; you are for me. Division of labor, that is accepted universally. So ask them, "Do you think that everyone should become doctor? Then where is the patient?" Eh? Everything is required. Similarly, you require our help also. It is cooperation. You know medical science; *we know spiritual science. So let us exchange and be happy. Why you are envious of us? Why there is division in the body*-head, arms, legs, belly? Why not everything head or everything leg? Why there is divided? That is nature. It is required. Why this road is neglected? Mādhavānanda: It's mismanagement. *Ādi*-keśava: Even they are saying that, that we don't know how to, we're not teaching anything practical. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Ādi*-keśava: Even sometimes they are saying we're not teaching anything practical. Prabhupāda: What does he mean by practical? *Ādi*-keśava: Practical? They're thinking we don't know how to operate in the material world. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Ādi*-keśava: They're thinking we don't know how to manage things. Prabhupāda: We are not managing things? Hm? Brahmānanda? You are not managing? Brahmānanda: We manage all day long. (laughing) *Ādi*-keśava: Even my father is a big businessman. He said to me, "Who is this person that taught you to manage like this?" He said, "I wish I could get him to teach all my men." Prabhupāda: So why don't you ask your father to join for management? Eh? Brahmānanda: So you are managing one of the buses, isn't it? *Ādi*-keśava: Yes. *Brahmānanda: He is managing one of the Rādhā*-Dāmodara..., that big bus. Prabhupāda: Oh. He is with us? *Brahmānanda: No. Ādi*-keśa. Your name is Ādi-keśa? Harikeśa: His father is a big scholar. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Ādi*-keśava: He's a big rascal. (laughter) Prabhupāda: In what subject he is scholar? *Ādi*-keśava: Well, he's a businessman, but also he is a big philosopher. He thinks that by working very hard that God will give you the result-karma-mīmāṁsā philosophy. *Prabhupāda: Hm. Karma*-mīmāṁsā. *Ādi*-keśava: He thinks simply by doing your work in the world, then God will become satisfied, and you do not need to offer any sacrifice. Prabhupāda: The ass is working also. So why God is not satisfied with him? He is working very hard. Why he is meant for carrying load for the washerman? Why do they think that we are not working? Eh? Harikeśa: They only see us chanting and dancing and eating prasādam. Ambarīṣa: They wonder how we can buy such a big house when we are not working. *Prabhupāda: That... They do not see Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Just like yesterday we purchased one house, and according to Indian exchange, twenty*-four lakhs. So I had no money, but I have purchased. That is... They do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. *Ādi*-keśava: In Boston when we bought the big temple there, they said... They asked us, "We saw you dancing and chanting in the street right in front of there the other day, and now we see you going into a house on the richest block in the whole city." *Prabhupāda: So why don't you say, "We have pleased Kṛṣṇa, He has sent money"? That is our business. Why should we work like an ass and dog? We simply please Kṛṣṇa, and He sends money. That's all. You see practically. Yesterday I went to see the house. I had no money, but I purchased. Twenty*-four lakhs. Wherefrom the money comes? That is intelligence, that you please one person and you get everything. And you rascal, you please so many others; *still, you are not happy. That is intelligence. You are going to water the trees and leaves and the twigs and..., but we put water in the root. It reaches everywhere. Yathā taror mūla*-niṣecaṇena tṛpyanti tat-skandha-bhujopasakhaḥ [SB 4.31.14]. If I pour water on the root, all the branches will be pleased and they will give me fruits, flowers, everything. They do not know this science. Harikeśa: They can't even see the root. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their blindness. Andhā. Brahmānanda: 'Cause they can't see it, they think it's not there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Brahmānanda: Because they can't see the root, they think it's not there. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...house for the last four years. And I went for half an hour; *I purchased*-without any money. Still, they are so blind, they cannot see the mercy of God. One should imagine that "Yes, there is mercy of God. Otherwise how it is possible?" If they have no eyes to see, they should imagine at least. Harikeśa: That's why the government thinks that we are being supported. In India they think we are being supported by the... Prabhupāda: CIA. Harikeśa: Yes. Because we have so many nice things. Where else could we... Brahmānanda: They think it is the mercy of the CIA. *Prabhupāda: My Godbrother says-Tīrtha Mahārāja*-that American government has given me two crores of rupees. They are supposed to be spiritually advanced, and they are so rascal. And he is the head of Caitanya Matha. Kṛṣṇa said, yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham: [Bg. 9.22] "I take the responsibility of his expenditure." Kṛṣṇa says, and they are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they are thinking, "American government is doing, not Kṛṣṇa." Such fools and rascals, they are head of..., a spiritual head. Karmīs, jñānīs-everyone is envious of our... And they are trying to speculate how to admit: "Where he gets money? Where he gets money?" Harikeśa: That man in San Francisco? The photographer? He was always trying to take pictures of your rings and always trying to take pictures of all the rich things on the altar. He was trying to make a story like that. They try to show that you are enjoying. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: They are trying to show that you are enjoying. *Brahmānanda: Even in Chicago the one, the woman who wrote the article, the 34*-ounce? She said how "You looked at your gold watch." That was in the article, such an important thing. Prabhupāda: Nityānanda Prabhu used to decorate Himself with very costly ornaments. Your teeth does not look very clean. Why? Harikeśa: They never get white. They are yellow all the time. Prabhupāda: You washed daily? Harikeśa: Every day. Ambarīṣa: Did you try baking soda? Harikeśa: Yes. Satsvarūpa: The karmīs are also envious that we are very happy, that we are looking forward to a next life. They... Because they don't have that faith... Prabhupāda: They have no hope. Satsvarūpa: They are envious. Prabhupāda: Actually they have no hope because they are going to degenerate to become dog, cats, trees, then lost. Satsvarūpa: So they try to tell us, "Oh, that is just mythology, what you are following," because they are envious. Brahmānanda: In Dr. Judah's book he gives interviews with the devotees, and they tell so many instances of how our devotees were so depressed and hopeless, and then they became Kṛṣṇa conscious, and oh, their whole lives have been transformed, and how happy and... Why don't they see that? They somehow discount it as being not very substantial, being fanatical or something religious. But it's a fact. He took a survey of "What was the thing that attracted you to the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?" So the majority, about 53%, they said it was the sound of the mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa. And another, about 48%, they said it was the friendliness of the devotees. Prabhupāda: And that one, what is called? Draft? Draft man came to inquire that "What is the allurement here in this society that they try to avoid that..." What do you call? Draft? "...draftboard and come to this society? What is the facility?" So when he studied he said that "There is no facility; still harder. They have to give up so many things." He remarked like that, "Still harder." Brahmānanda: Than the army. Prabhupāda: Yes. And actually that is so. Wherever you go, nobody will ask you that "You give up this, give up this, give up this, give up this." And we ask that "If you want to join, then you have to give up these things." So they have sacrificed everything; still, they are happy. Therefore they have been described as mūḍha, no knowledge. Mūḍha nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. (end) Morning Walk -- August 7, 1975, Toronto Jagadīśa: Yesterday I saw a statistic saying that in the United States, 21% of the population is in poverty. Prabhupāda: Hm. So? Brahmānanda: But that poverty means that they earn five thousand dollars or less. Less than five thousand is the line. Prabhupāda: Well, it is all proportionate, that... You are paying rent for this room where I am staying, $175 per month? Uttamaśloka: It has just been changed to 175 from 150. Prabhupāda: So out of five hundred dollars if you have to pay 175, rent, then why it is not poverty? Almost one third money is finished by paying rent. [break] ...seen in India the Narmada Falls? Huh? Jabalpur? Ah, it is wonderful. Indian man (1): The location of that church is very nice because there are so many thousands of cars pass every morning and in the evening. Prabhupāda: Where? Indian man (1): Avenue Road. It is very busy street. There are so many cars coming in the morning, I think, twenty thousand a day. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they will see the signboard. [break] Indian man (2): ...that India, I traveled after several years. I last went in 1966. It was not so demonic. But this time I found the younger generation of India is very, very demonic and they don't believe God at all. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian Man (2): What is the reason of that? Prabhupāda: They have been taught by your rascal leaders, Jawaharlal Nehru and company. These rascals taught them. Indian Man (2): Jawaharlal Nehru was representing the India for so many years. Prabhupāda: Yes. And therefore he has ruined. Indian Man (2): He is ruining since our, before born, in 1930. *Prabhupāda: Well, that was the beginning, but he completed the finishing touch. Sometimes he came to Vṛndāvana-I was there, retired*-to open a Ramakrishna Mission hospital, and he stayed there the whole day. He came in the morning and went back to New Delhi in the evening, but not a single temple he visited. Where thousands of men are coming to see the temple, but he, the prime minister, he did not visit not a single temple. Indian Man (2): He accepted as spiritual master, some sort of... His teacher is Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi. So he was teaching him the same thing what he has learned. From here he learned all this knowledge which has spoiled our Indian culture? Prabhupāda: No, Gandhi had no spiritual knowledge. He was little moralist. That's all. That was also good. But these men are not even moralist. Indian Man (2): How can we fast move in India to spread our Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Hm? Indian Man (2): How can we spread the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *Prabhupāda: If we go village to village. The village people are still pure, at least not so polluted as the town people, or especially the so*-called educated. [break] ...hari-kīrtana koro... (Bengali) We held this hari-kīrtana in Delhi, Calcutta, Bombay. Oh, at least fifteen to thirty thousand people were daily... Even from the office with coats and pants, they are dancing. And they asked me, "Swamiji, continue it." [break] *Indian Man (2): I traveled all over India so many years, place to place, but I found the Gujarati is one of the best where the people have there some natural*-born Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That's fact. Everywhere*-Gujaratis, Marwaris, Punjabis-more or less, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there. [break] Indian Man (2): I ask you one question. What is the future of India regarding the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? The people are so much demonic. It every time bothers me, day and night, that what will happen? The people don't have respect for the olders. They just harass. I was with my wife too, and I found the... We talk about the Kṛṣṇa, and they just laugh. They say, "There is nothing like that." They made so much fun, the young generation, that "You are a modern boy, and you are believing in that?" Just I found. I can't understand that how we can change over to the Indian future about Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: If we preach, it will be all right. That is going on perpetually, darkness and light. If you bring light, darkness will go out, will be driven away. Indian Man (2): In Hardwar I have been recently, and I met one of my uncle's wife. My uncle's father was a very big mahanta. He was having quite in a big numbers, maybe in lakhs or you can say million, half million to million disciples. And what he was using in whole life, the disciple's money, for his own pleasure or his wife and children's. And at the end of it he took his sannyāsa. Only just few years after that, he died. And I found there in a lot of mahantas, they have a temples, they are using there lot of jewels, gold, and money, and they have a business, like that. And thousand of educated people visit, and they believe that this is all they are doing, show off, and there is no God. This is bewildering everybody's mind. Is there any... we have some system that we can conquer those people by means to... Those young generation of their children, they really looking for the truth. I met one mahanta, his son. He is very educated boy. He met impersonalist leader, and he misguided, and they are leading their life just like a, you can say, I don't want to use bad word, like pigs. They are eating and sleeping and mating, same as there are other people doing. Prabhupāda: Well, this is want of knowledge, jñānam. Passerby: Max! Max! Come here. Come on, buddy. Prabhupāda: Good friends. (laughter) Harikeśa: Hut! Hut! Hut! Hut! Hut! Hut! Hut! [break] Prabhupāda: ...ing friendship with dog, then what he will be? He'll become dog. That's all. He will not hear anything. Sadā tad bhāva bhāvitaḥ [Bg. 8.6]. Indian Man (2): Prabhupāda, these people, dogs, mostly are atheist? Atheist, they take the birth as the dog? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless one is atheist, how he takes to dog? Theist takes to God, and they takes to dog. That's it. Not only animal dog, but they associate with a human dog, two-legged dogs. There are four-legged, and there are two-legged dogs-human being, but dog. He is also like dog, although he has got two legs and they have got four legs. In the parks it is by law prohibited to take dog, but he is dog. He violate the dog's law. Therefore he is no better than dog. [break] ...defect of modern civilization-they are keeping people as dog, and they want to make them human beings by law. They are thinking, "If we impose this law, things will be all right." But how things will be all right? If you keep them dog, how the things will be all right? So we are training from dog to humanity. That is our special activities. We do not keep them as dog. We bring them to become godly. Then things will be all right. Other so-called gurus, they keep the disciple to remain as dog. Please pay him, and he... Asikbada*-he will be all right. This is going on. [break] ...our class begin? Brahmānanda: What time do the Deities open? Viśvakarmā: Usually the Deities open at seven. Prabhupāda: So we shall go back? Viśvakarmā: Yes. [break] Indian man (2): ...very important, one question which everybody asks, in India, everybody. They want to see "Where is the God?" They want to see: "Show us how we can see it. We ready to do everything, and we want to see the God. And show us some miracle or something that we can believe it." Everybody is like that. And the people lot of having mystic power, they make the fool of the peoples. Prabhupāda: What is that mystic power? Indian Man (2): I don't know what they show it, some sort of... Prabhupāda: You do not know? Indian Man (2): Some ji(?), they make it like that and this and that. They make the fool people. How can we convince that something, that knowledge is there. But they want immediate to know it to believe it. Prabhupāda: That is their rascaldom. One wants to be learned without going to the school. Is it possible? So they are rascals. What can be done? They don't want to go to school and take the training, and they want to pass M.A. examination. This is their proposal. So these rascals should be kicked out. That's all. Harikeśa: In America they use maple syrup a lot, maple syrup. Is that also part of the sinful reaction for the trees? Yes. Prabhupāda: [break] ...eḥ? Viśvakarma: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm. Only fuel. They are called fuel. They are meant for using as fuel. [break] Viśvakarma: ...Ontario, Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is known as the fruit belt, in this area. But now they are ripping up all the orchards and putting in factories. Prabhupāda: Whatever they do, they do it for factories so that people may be exploited very easily. [break] Indian Man (2): ...like your company very much in Toronto and we feel like talk you so much, but we don't have so much time to talk with you. You have so much mercy, so we have not... know so much about Kṛṣṇa from you. Prabhupāda: So in my absence you read the books. What I talk, I have written in the books. That's all. Indian Man (2): Personally, we think more greater. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But still, you can associate with me by reading my books. Indian Man (2): I am reading books Prabhupāda. That books are your very, very good and most blessful to us. It is the biggest good will upon whole of universe at present, I think. By that knowledge, from dog to, I have become... I feel like I have something in my property of your books in my home. That's the only property I feel that I have, this one. I was misled, misguided in this country. *Prabhupāda: Therefore in the beginning of Bhāgavatam it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo atra: [SB 1.1.2] "All cheating type of instruction is kicked out from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Only substance." Vāstavam-vastu vedyam atra. One who is really anxious to know reality, for them, it is Bhāgavatam. And those who want to be misled, not for them. One who is sincere to get the light, for him Bhāgavata is the only remedy. [break] ...the question that "Why Bhāgavata is so important than other books?" The reply is there: mahā-muni kṛte kiṁ va paraiḥ. "What is the use of other books?" It is written by Mahā-muni Vyāsadeva, the Vedānta-ācārya. (end) Morning Walk -- August 12, 1975, Paris Bhagavān: I was trying to single out a few, but it was impossible. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Welcome. No, no. All welcome. Bhagavān: An international society for cameras. Prabhupāda: Cameras? Bhagavān: Everyone has camera. This way we go? [break] Everyone should chant softly. Prabhupāda: But here we cannot walk in... Bhagavān: We cannot all walk, I don't think. It is too thin here. Prabhupāda: There are so many men. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] It is closed? Bhagavān: They don't like traffic in here so... Prabhupāda: Oh. That's nice. Good idea. [break] Bhagavān: They are getting cheated from all sides. The scientists are cheating them... Prabhupāda: No, they want to be cheated. What can be done? Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. Just like the advertisement, "No faith, no philosophy, no restriction." You want all these things; therefore he has come to cheat you: "Yes. No regulation. You can do whatever you like." And then he will praised, "Oh, he is good, good swamiji. He has no restriction. And here is a most conservative swamiji. 'Don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this.' " They want to be cheated. As soon as you speak the truth they will not accept. They will argue. What is the wrong in illicit sex? Why he's restricting? This is the... They go to guru to teach the guru, not to take lesson from the guru. What is that? Mādhavānanda: ...thinks that they have some responsibility in the world, and if you say all of a sudden that "You have no responsibility..." *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, that "Yes, you have responsibility so long you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious," not that a person who is not in the devotional service of the Lord, he can say, "I have no responsibility." He cannot say. Bhagavān: Duty. Prabhupāda: He cannot. He has all the duties. But one who has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness without any reservation, he has no duty. He has no respons... Mādhavānanda: Then the responsibility for some is to Kṛṣṇa; the responsibility of some is to the demigods? Prabhupāda: Yes. Demigods, you have got responsibility. Deva, ṛṣi, bhūta, living entities. Just like you are taking milk from the cows. You have the responsibility to protect it, but you are killing. So you must suffer. Bhagavān: So the present system is simply expert at producing completely irresponsible people. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are talking of responsibility. But one who is devotee... Eh? Bhagavān: They say we are irresponsible. Prabhupāda: No, we are not irresponsible. We have finished all responsibility. We are not irresponsible. But we are in such a position that we have passed all these responsibilities. Mādhavānanda: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you told this lady, this woman last night, that she should give up her responsibilities... Prabhupāda: Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the only respons... Then you can... Not that you give up all responsibility. First of all take to Kṛṣṇa responsibility. Then there is no responsibility. Give up something; take something. Then it is all right. And give up everything and then you zero. Brahmānanda: But they see responsibility only in terms of making a bank balance and having a nice home and satisfying our... Prabhupāda: Therefore they are suffering. In spite of bank balance, they are suffering. Harikeśa: (whispering) ...finding it impossible on that side. Excuse me. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...said, suppose you have not done your responsibility properly, so then you have become sinful. Hm? Is it not? So Kṛṣṇa gives assurance that "You surrender to Me, and I give you protection from all sins." So even you think that "By giving up my all other responsibilities I am taking shelter of You. Then I will be punishable for my sinful act," so Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. Then where is my responsibility? I become free immediately, provided I surrender to Kṛṣṇa without any reservations. Then. Then it is. Otherwise not. Brahmānanda: They will say that suffering is a part of life, that suffering is a necessary part of life. Prabhupāda: Then why you are trying to get out of suffering? Suffer, rascal. Why you are trying to get out of suffering. Why? Brahmānanda: Because they don't like it. But they say you have to accept it. Prabhupāda: Then, if you say... If it is a part of life, why don't you like it? Suffer. Go on suffering. You are accepting as part of life because you cannot get out of it. "The grapes are sour." That's all. After jumping, jumping, jumping, when it is not available, "Oh, the grapes are sour. It is no... There is no necessity." Jackal's philosophy. Bhagavān: They will surrender to the misery, but they will not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is their disease. Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? When you speak of taking care of your responsibilities for Kṛṣṇa, doesn't that also have a material aspect to it? Just like a parent must bring up the child, must take care of the child, train it to read, and to write, and so on... *Prabhupāda: Yes. That means we are taking care of the children*-why? Just to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious, not to become cats and dogs. This is our responsibility. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious, that "Here is a child. He may be saved to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious." Therefore we are taking so much care in the Dallas. We are not irresponsible. But our responsibility is there, that "Make him Kṛṣṇa conscious." Yogeśvara: So when we say that we have finished all responsibility by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, that doesn't mean that we've abandoned execution of duty, does it? Prabhupāda: No, no. Who says that? Yogeśvara: Well, some people say that "You've taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and now you have given up all of your..." *Prabhupāda: It is not duty? This is the main duty. This is the main duty. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām [Bg. 18.66]. We have taken responsibility for Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are doing. Why we are traveling all over the world thrice in a year? We have taken the responsibility. Otherwise, who is, an old man, he'll take such responsibility? That is a greater responsibility. When you become a big officer of the government, it means you overburdened with responsibility, not this flickering resp... Here the material respons... means it has no use. You are simply wasting time. And here is real responsibility and real life. That I explained to that lady, that "Even if you take respons... what can you do? You cannot do anything." The example I gave, that "You have taken responsibility for your son's disease. He is suffering. You have brought good physician, you have brought good medicine, everything, but what can you do? In spite of your all responsibility, your son dies. Then where is the value of your responsibility?" Do you think simply by bringing a nice physician and nice medicine you can save your son? Then where is your responsibility? Actually you cannot do anything, so what is the use of saying that "I am responsible"? You cannot do anything. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. If one blind man says, "I'll take responsibility. You all blind men follow me," so what is the use of this responsibility? He will die and others will die. So what is the meaning of this responsibility? Even if you take as very responsible man, you cannot do anything. That is not possible. You cannot save. Who wants that "My son dies, my father dies, and I'll take them and..."? But one little disease will finish your responsibi... Every nation is taken, all the leaders, and as soon as there is war, thousands and thousands will be killed. What responsibility? As soon as one atom bomb is dropped, then is many thousand will be finished. Then what is your responsibility? You cannot give. You can make a statue: "These soldiers died. These soldiers died." That's all. But you could not save them from death. Mādhavānanda: Then they would say that we also must die. Everyone must die. *Prabhupāda: Yes, we die*-to live forever. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. We die for that. This is the last death. Mādhavānanda: Then they will say, "How do we know?" Prabhupāda: That... You are rascal. How you will know? You come to my feet; then you will know. (laughter) Brahmānanda: To your feet or to your boot. *Prabhupāda: Yes, provided there is boot. Yes. Therefore there is a Vedic injunction, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] "Because you are fool, rascal, you must approach a guru." That is the way. Sa gurum eva, eva, "certainly," abhigacchet, "must go." Otherwise there is no possibility. You remain as foolish forever and suffer. Yogeśvara: There is one German historian named Frederick Engels. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is another foolish. (laughter) I can... Yogeśvara: He wrote against Vedic culture by saying that even the brāhmaṇas of Vedic culture were not responsible because the culture failed. It ended at a certain period in history. It was simply exploitation of the workers under the guise of religion. That was his argument. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: That was not the fault of the *Prabhupāda: The argument of foolish man*-who is caring? Vedic culture when finished? Yogeśvara: [break] ...five thousand years ago. Prabhupāda: Five thousand years ago. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, five hundred years, how He accepted if it is finished? He is more than Caitanya Mahāprabhu, this rascal? Yogeśvara: Haribol. Bhagavān: They are willing to take so many material risks, but they are not willing to try spiritual life. Prabhupāda: That is their fault. That is their foolishness. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Therefore they are called mūḍhas. Yogeśvara: How would we define the word responsibility in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *Prabhupāda: Responsibility is that you have got this human form of life. Realize God. This is your responsibility. Otherwise you are finished. Three words: "You have got this human form of life. Your only responsibility is to understand God. This is your responsibility." That is Vedic culture. For understanding God, many, many kings, many, many saints, they left everything and went to the forest to realize God. That is Vedic culture. Bhārata Mahārāja, under whose name India is called Bhāratavarṣa, he was the emperor of this planet, and at the age of twenty-four years he left everything to realize God. This is Vedic culture. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, His position was very, very nice, as a gṛhastha*-a nice beautiful wife, affectionate mother, good influence, brāhmaṇa family, learned scholar, everything first class. He left everything just to show us. He was God Himself, but to set the example, tyaktvā sudustyaja-surepsita-rajya-lakṣmīm [SB 11.5.34]. He gave up a kingdom of fortune which is aspired by the demigods. Such a nice life, such a nice family, but He gave up. Tyaktvā sudustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīm dharmistha arya... [SB 11.5.34]. Just to teach us the process of realizing God. This is Vedic system. [break] Somebody may not push. [break] ...water? No. Very deep? Dhanañjaya: Not so much here. [break] Prabhupāda: When you ask me... What is that, definition of respons...? So you understand what is the responsibility? Yogeśvara: We have this human life. We must realize God. Prabhupāda: This, three words. Make the rascals understand it. We speak the whole responsibility in three words. Is it complete or not? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Or you have got any protest? This is the only... Bhagavān: Let Śrīla Prabhupāda go through. Brahmānanda: They have not taken God realization as a responsibility. Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. Brahmānanda: Simply as a pastime. Prabhupāda: That is their ignorance. They do not know what is respons... Mādhavānanda: They would say that so many may have taken God realization as responsibility, following some Christ... church or something like that, but they are also frustrated. *Prabhupāda: We are not frustrated. Eh? We are not frustrated. Are we frustrated? Then? How the rascal says, "frustrated"? If you take false thing, then you will be frustrated. If you take real path of God realization, there is no question of frustration. It is ānandāmbudhi*-vardhanam, increasing pleasure, no frustration. Mādhavānanda: Then they say that no one has real information of God. Prabhupāda: You have no, rascal, because you are rascal. I have got. You just wash my feet, and I will inform you. Devotees: Jaya. Haribol. [break] Prabhupāda: ...not know how to swim; that does not mean I do not. Is it a very honest statement? Oh, nobody can swim because he does not know. But if anyone knows how to swim, then why do you say that no one has done? You do not know. You accept that. Mādhavānanda: Everyone thinks in terms of their own relative position. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Even an insignificant bird, because he knows swimming, he knows swimming, so he can challenge, and because you do not know swimming, you cannot say like that. Even insignificant bird, just see how nicely he is swimming. He knows the art. [break] ...one, cent percent of the modern people, they do not believe in God, and they do not know what is religion. That is the position. They think, "Religion is sentiment. Anyone can manufacture his own sentiment. There is no God." This is the position. So we are in fault. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." The whole world is under this conception. Therefore we are at fault. We are preaching God consciousness. Brahmānanda: Generally they make it difficult for us to preach. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: They hinder us in so many ways. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Because they have not realized that we have taken a responsibility. When a man has a responsibility usually he is given some certain facilities to carry out that responsibility. Prabhupāda: Everyone, cent percent godless, neither they have got intelligence to understand what is God. This is the position. Yogeśvara: Then we are giving them the intelligence as well as the answers? Because if they have no intelligence to understand... Prabhupāda: Yes. Our organization is that. Why we are opening so many centers? Just to give these rascals intelligence. Why Kṛṣṇa is recognizing so nicely a preacher? Because He knows that he has to face so many difficulties. He is not easygoing, armchair politician, no. He has to face so many difficulties. Mādhavānanda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa recognizes by giving knowledge of Himself? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa immediately gives him all facilities. Mādhavānanda: There has never been a movement like this which has given factual knowledge of God. Therefore they think it's sentiment, religion. Prabhupāda: So we have to abide by their sentiment? Because they are rascals, we have to become rascal? Yogeśvara: (aside:) The top has come down? (pause) Prabhupāda: What is the... Time now? Harikeśa: 6:17. *Prabhupāda: Even if you take so-called responsibility, you will not be allowed to carry it out. The example I was giving: Napoleon, Hitler, and Gandhi. They took responsibility, but they were driven away. What can I do? So what is the meaning of your responsibility? You will not be allowed to execute your responsibility. What remedy you have done that you will not be allowed, kicked out? Then where is your responsibility? Even if you are very nice gentleman*-you have taken responsibility-but nature will not allow you to execute the responsibility. What is your answer to that? Big, big Napoleon, big, big Hitler, big, big Gandhi came and gone. Where is the responsibility executed? The Napoleon was given horse urine. You know? By the Britishers. Brahmānanda: To drink. Prabhupāda: Yes. At the last stage when he was asking for water he was given horse urine. He died like that. Hitler committed suicide. Gandhi was killed. So where is their responsibility? They falsely thinking, "Without me, everything will be lost." But they are kicked out; everything is going on. Dhanañjaya: It's the same with President De Gaulle. President De Gaulle. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, Nixon is there, but when he was on the office, he was thinking, "Without me America will go to hell." But he has gone to hell; America is there. (laughter) Just see. Just see the position of the... You can see the Nixon. When he was in the office, oh, he was a big man. He was responsible man. Now he is kicked out. He is begging, and America is going on. Where is the need of this responsibility? For several months he was asked that "You give up your responsibility." The rascal will not give: "No, without me America will go to hell." Just see. This is responsible. Yogeśvara: All of these big politicians, they seem to fall very ill afterwards. They seem to become very sick. Nixon is also sick. Prabhupāda: Not only sick, they die very soon. Yogeśvara: Radhakrishnan was paralyzed. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brain paralyzed. [break] Harikeśa: Give this to Yogeśvara. (Prabhupāda and devotees get into car and drive away) Bhagavān: Actually they are envious. We are doing the same things they are doing, but better, and getting the results. We are working. We are doing so many things like they... Prabhupāda: We are not lazy. [break] ...Nixon was elected. I saw propaganda, "America needs Nixon." You have seen? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: People also thought, "Yes." He never said, "Nixon needs money." (laughter) This is cheating. He needs some money; he said, "America needs Nixon." And the rascals were befooled. [break] All these politicians do like that. What is their responsibility? Brahmānanda: Now Nixon is in debt. He is now in debt. Prabhupāda: Debt? Why? Brahmānanda: For his legal fees. He owes 300,000 dollars. So one rabbi... Prabhupāda: So he cannot give 300,000 dollars? Brahmānanda: No, he has no money. He had to pay taxes. Prabhupāda: So we are paying 300,000. So we are better than him. [break] ...rabbi is a Jew? Brahmānanda: Yes. So this rabbi, he is a personal friend. He has taken the responsibility for raising the money. Actually the fees were 500,000. He has already raised 200,000. 300,000 to go. Prabhupāda: And nobody is excusing the fee, the lawyers? Brahmānanda: No. But now he is writing his book. Prabhupāda: Yes, another fallacy. Brahmānanda: For that book he will get two and a half million dollars. Prabhupāda: About his life history? Brahmānanda: Yes. He is very sick now. Now he sleeps twelve hours a day. Prabhupāda: Oh. That is good. [break] He is released from all political obligations or not? Brahmānanda: From the charges? Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: No. Actually he can be called to give testimony. Prabhupāda: Testimony? Brahmānanda: Yes. There are certain pending investigations. So he is eligible for being called to give testimony for these investigations. But on the plea of his bad health, therefore he is not being called. He is afraid actually. Right now he does not go to any social gatherings, he does not make any public appearances. He is afraid that as soon as he makes public appearances, then he will be called to give testimony. So he is actually being forced to live a very lonely life. Prabhupāda: Lonely life means drinking. What he will do? [break] ...this was made by Napoleon? Bhagavān: Yes. Brahmānanda: So the arch is still here. (laughs) Prabhupāda: People, they come to see the arch. Just like in Rome, so many broken buildings, thousands of men go to see them, and they get good income, tourist. Bhagavān: On New Year's we took our saṅkīrtana party through that arch. Brahmānanda: Many people come here? Bhagavān: For New Year's. And they all applauded us. Prabhupāda: There is another arch this side? No. Where is the other boy? I do not see him. What was the name? Yesterday he was there. One of your... Brahmānanda: Viśvambhara? Bhagavān: Oh. He is managing things at the farm today. (end) Morning Walk -- August 15, 1975, Bombay Prabhupāda: Three lakhs gone. [break] ...from Mrs. Nair. From her this transaction was completed. Whether municipality finished this transaction by paying competitive... Simply by marking is not conclusion of the business. [break] If they want it... [break] Gopal Kṛṣṇa: Their value is increasing due to our temple also, because now they advertise in the papers, "Next to Hare Kṛṣṇa mandir." Girirāja: Even Matrey wants to make a school here, and he put a map, and in the map is "Hare Kṛṣṇa mandir." Prabhupāda: (chuckles) ...this land will be banyan, full of banyans. [break] ...many obstacles we are facing. Never mind. Still, we are coming out, gradually. Kuntīdevī said, "Kṛṣṇa, all those dangerous days may come again so that I can always remember You. Now... When we were in dangerous days You were always with us. Now we are prosperous; now You are going away. So better I call for again those dangerous days so that You can remain and we can become surrendered to You." [break] ...country, I started on this ocean, thirteenth August, thirteenth August, this ferocious ocean. Everyone said, "This time you don't go by sea." Brahmānanda: It's the worst season. Prabhupāda: Yes, worst season. Brahmānanda: This is the... Prabhupāda: No, no, not worst...(?) (end) Morning Walk Excerpt -- August 17, 1975, Bombay Prabhupāda: This side is going to be constructed. Girirāja: This side? Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: We have to get the plan sanctioned first of all. Prabhupāda: It is not sanctioned? Girirāja: Oh, you mean one more story? Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: Oh. Well, we were considering demolishing this one. Prabhupāda: Demolishing.... Saurabha said that cannot be... Here we cannot build? Saurabha: Well, we have to have a certain amount of garden space, and according to the master plan this is supposed to be garden. Otherwise we're not allowed to build any other building there. Prabhupāda: No. Then, above that, that side we shall build. Saurabha: Very big building. Prabhupāda: Yes. That, big... Here you can simply have one story more. And what about this land? Saurabha: This is used now for storing sand. That land or this? Prabhupāda: No, no. This. Saurabha: This will be garden also, but now we keep for storing because we need that for sand here. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If we have to add a second floor there we can make it a BBT warehouse, exactly as per your directions. Prabhupāda: And why not others? BBT warehouse, there are so many. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, a big room will be very good, so when we construct that, we can have a big hall. Prabhupāda: Oh. That's nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. A big hall, like in Los Angeles where we can have shelves and... Saurabha: The slab is not strong enough to have so much weight on it. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Saurabha: It has to be on the ground floor. We were thinking of making a godown there in the back, in back of the temple. When we build the temple, we build also a godown there. Girirāja: Mr. Menon is willing to move upstairs. Prabhupāda: Hm? Girirāja: Mr. Menon, who has a flat on the ground floor, he is willing to shift upstairs if we want to trade. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Let's have a look at his apartment today. Prabhupāda: So, you can make down. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. That can be done. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually down will be better for warehouse because then you don't have to carry the books two flights down. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When a shipment comes it is easier to put it inside. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let us first of all construct. Then we can consider. The dogs cannot enter anymore. Now they enter. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] No. I'm not feeling very well. Dr. Patel: Then I think something should be done for you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So how many stories this building? Saurabha: Three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Ground floor, eight. Prabhupāda: Eh? How many we are having? Saurabha: We have... Well, the height would come same as that. This is the limit now. They don't allow any higher building. Girirāja: We could have had an extra story, but since the ground floor will be round and public gathering place, so we're making a little higher plinth in a higher ceiling. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Do it nicely. And we cannot make garage like that? Hm? Saurabha: Yes, we can make. How many garages do you want? Prabhupāda: That we shall see. Saurabha: The difficulty is there's a law that so much garden we have to make, and each garden has to be minimum 4,000 square feet, so it has to be one particular area. And our land has been divided in so many small pieces, so we have somewhere to make a big garden. Then everywhere else we can build. Prabhupāda: Do. You have got enough space. (end) Room Conversation -- August 21, 1975, Bombay *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Exactly what Kṛṣṇa has said. Our mission... (Bengali) Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Bas. If you speak what Kṛṣṇa has instructed, you become guru. But if you make your own concoction, own invention, then... (Bengali) I don't speak any nonsense except the instruction given in the Bhagavad-gītā. That is my credit. That's all. People say that I have done wonderful, but I do not know any magic. The wonderful thing I have done is that I don't speak any nonsense thing. (Bengali) Lalitā: What you say, you act according to that. *Prabhupāda: No, what I learn from Kṛṣṇa I say. I don't say independently. That is not my business. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. [break] How? Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You deliver your village people and become a guru. Everyone is not going to be so big that he can go all over the world. But everyone can teach within his limit, within his family, within his community, within his village, within his town, within his district. As he is capable, he can increase. But everyone can become a guru and deliver the local people. How? Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Then you are guru. As soon as you manufacture anything nonsense, then it is spoiled. That is going on. So many gurus are there; *they are manufacturing. They are becoming Kṛṣṇa. That is nonsense. That is nonsense. You cannot become Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Bhagavān sakala hṛdaya... [break] Can you stay in everyone's heart? You are claiming God. This one instance. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛdeśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati. He is aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ. He is within this universe, and He is within the atom. You are claiming to be Īśvara, God. Are you within the atom? Are you within everyone's heart? Then how do you claim that you are Īśvara? Practical. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ [Bg. 18.61]. Īśvara, God, God is everyone's heart. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. (Bengali) ...on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā... (Bengali) And as soon as you manufacture something, then it is spoiled. (Bengali) That is going on. The so-called gurus, they get some mystic power, yoga-siddhi, and they show it and they mislead people that he is God. That is the difficulty. We never said... Where is that book? (Bengali) ...gurus. Again he has to go? (Bengali) So far as I am concerned, these things are not there. About me, I am... In Dallas I am taking one child's hand and I am teaching them how to write "a," "a." (Bengali) Where is that professors? Brahmānanda: Professor... Prabhupāda: No, all these professors. Those who are purchasing our books. Brahmānanda: Oh, the recommendations? Prabhupāda: Yes. (Bengali) University professors, learned scholars. (Bengali) We have equipped our composing... We compose and send to the press. You know something about our Los Angeles arrangement? Harikeśa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: What is the worth of all the machines? *Harikeśa: Oh, the composer itself is worth about seventy*-five thousand dollars. *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Seventy*-five thousand dollars. Harikeśa: That's just one machine. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...New Vrindaban... article... last year...(Bengali) Lalitā: (Bengali) ...Gurudeva's remarks about their remarks. And of his... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: August 24th and 34th issue of (indistinct). Prabhupāda: (Bengali) "Śrīla Prabhupāda instructs a young American student in Sanskrit at the Gurukula." (Bengali) This is my miracle. Lalitā: You are changing actually, transforming. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...Kartik Bose... (Bengali) ...Kartik Bose's laboratory... (Bengali) ...Gauḍīya Maṭha... (Bengali) Lalitā: (Bengali) ...Māyāpur... (Bengali) ...Vṛndāvana... (Bengali) ...Hare Kṛṣṇa mandir... (Bengali) ...Guru Mahārāja... (Bengali) They are so impressed, the way they are putting the śaṇkha and then, you know, ārati... (Bengali) The same time the door opens and the same time the śaṇkha. (Bengali) Sincere, sincere devotee. Prabhupāda: Sincere devotee. (Bengali) At least... (Bengali) ...hundred men come... (Bengali) They have nothing to do with the Lalitā: The project will be failure. (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...village... (Bengali) ...the cooperation... (Bengali) I like this position, dictatorship. Personally I like this. (Bengali) ...America... (Bengali) "What is your opinion about this?" Must criti... Yes, criticized policy of Indira Gandhi. (Bengali) ...is spiritually inclined. If she improves, it will be perfect. She wants to be improved. Lalitā: This should be taken with... Bhavananda: A most important piece of paper. Prabhupāda: "Barefoot Swami draws admiring Kṛṣṇa crowd." And... Read that portion. (Bengali) Lalitā: (Bengali) ...most prominent person in U.S. is Prabhupāda. Brahmānanda: "Asked about the political situation in his native India and the criticized actions of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, the swami replied that 'Mrs. Gandhi is inclined to some spiritual understanding, and if she fully develops it the situation will improve. Democracy is not much beneficial if its leaders have no spiritual values. Mahatma Gandhi was practically a dictator, but he was a man of high moral character, so people accepted him. Dictatorship can be good provided the dictator is spiritually developed.' " Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Lalitā: You take this benefit. (Bengali) ...spiritually conscious, everything will be... (Bengali) But if it is the nasty things, the nasty and... Prabhupāda: Politically it will be failure, but spiritually it will be successful. Lalitā: (Bengali) She is eager to meet him, so he should talk high level... (Bengali) Prabhupāda: ...because I am missionary, (Bengali) permanent resident American... (Bengali) ...our visa, passport... (Bengali) ...certain percentage... (Bengali) ...so "You will have to wait for six years." (Bengali) Lalitā: Mahārāja, we have to note down the point, "missionary movement," and what will be the subject. You have to submit one letter... (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...Indira's janma? *Lalitā: She is now fifty*-seven. *Prabhupāda: Fifty*-seven. Devotee (2): 1920. Prabhupāda: Eighteen? Devotee (1): I think, 1920. Prabhupāda: 1890. (Bengali) Lalitā: ...foreign exchange, for the development of India...(Bengali) ...that how it is... "Can you prove?" And yes. You can send immediately? Everything is in open. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have all the receipts with me from the bank transfers. *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) This is meant for the executive head of the state. It is meant for. In the Bhagavad*-gītā, Fourth Chapter, it is stated, Lalitā: No, she is full of humility... (Bengali) *Prabhupāda: Then not only the people of India will be benefited but also the whole world will be benefited. And you have got that sampatti, Bhagavad*-gītā guidance. I will not manufacture anything. That is not my business, concoction thing, hodgepodge, without any knowledge, without any experience. We are not that type of... (Bengali) Lalitā: We have to set everything. When I phone we should be ready. Prabhupāda: You make a file. Whatever she says, make a file and keep that. Lalitā: We have to, yes. (Bengali) ...government scheme. (Bengali) We have to note down what he is saying. That's why I told... That will be written in short letter, short, Guru Mahārāja to (indistinct) us. It is to be... Prabhupāda: Anyone can? You can read Hindi? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Read it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (reads Hindi) Prabhupāda: You can go on, go on reading. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (reads Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Go on. Go on reading. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (reads Hindi) Prabhupāda: Ruci, kachori, rabri, sandeṣa, rasagullā, panir... (Bengali) ...daily, 1,000 pound, Vṛndāvana. (Bengali) False propaganda. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now, this August 24th and 31st, Dharmayan(?) is bringing up two big articles on us on Janmāṣṭamī, to do a series. August 24th issue and August 31st two very nice articles on us are appearing. *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...gorakṣya. Kṛṣi*-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma-svabhāva-jam [Bg 18.44]. Bhagavad-gītā. (Bengali) *Lalitā: (Bengali) "You go away." My mother told that "You leave me. Kṛṣṇa will look after me." Seventy*-six. (Bengali) My mother is very spiritual. "Guru Mahārāja, (Bengali). You must go and tell Indira." (Bengali) But you have to... I have written to Brahmananda Reddy... (Bengali) ...because I am going to prime minister. I will have to show... (Bengali) ...relationship. You go personally. And I will also carry your letter. So he was also... Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Lalitā: (Bengali) ...American guru. Yesterday somebody came to me when I am just... (Bengali) ...Central Intelligence... (Bengali) ...whose house that Mr. Badiraja(?) house, and Guru Maharaj*-ji is Indian or American. Twice they phoned from the prime minister's office. We are telling them in Bengali. From there, Calcutta, West Bengal. And I know, my grandfather knows him, and I told this. (Bengali) ...this American guru. And again and again they are phoning. I said, "No, no." (Bengali) What she will feel? She has got that power. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...she is spiritually inclined, therefore... (Bengali) "I know Mrs. Gandhi is spiritually inclined." (Bengali) By 1928 Jawaharlal Nehru, Congress President... (Bengali) "Dear Panditji, I want to go to Congress as a delegate. Please give me delegate ticket." (Bengali) "You don't require any ticket. You come here. You'll get it." Delegate's seats are... (Bengali) Lalitā: You born... When Guru Maharaj born... (Bengali) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: 1896. Lalitā: Somebody has reported that he is American and this and that. Prabhupāda: No. (Bengali) ...Calcutta janma... (Bengali) Lalitā: I told you that Mr. Mani is Sai Baba's bhakta. So he is harassing, sending a letter and all. It's not especial any, that "Send to the member of ISKCON. They must leave." No. There is no report like that, but they are sending to say that he should learn and come to the Mr. Mani's bhakta of Sai Baba. (Bengali) There is nothing special. So if you are feeling better, then tomorrow or the day after tomorrow... (Bengali) ...can I mention that you must fit to see? *Prabhupāda: Yes. (Bengali) You know that? (Bengali) Between twelve to end of the day. (Bengali) Indira Gandhi... (Bengali) ...position plus spiritual knowledge, it will play wonderful in the world. (Bengali) Third*-class, fourth-class rogue, they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Rājarṣayo. He must be royalty, at the same time great sage, saintly person. Then he will understand. (Bengali) Lalitā: You must have that quality to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Bengali) Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Find out this verse. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Harikeśa: Sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. Prabhupāda: Again, rājarṣayo viduḥ, sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ. Rājarṣaya (Bengali) India culture... (Bengali) Now I can help you. This is my... (Bengali) Sa kāleneha? Harikeśa: Kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. *Prabhupāda: Yogo naṣṭaḥ paran. Rājarṣaya... (Bengali) ...third*-class, fourth-class rogue... (Bengali) It was the primary qualification that one must be a graduate; then he can understand what is law. Similarly, if one is actually brāhmaṇa by qualification, then he can understand what is Vedas. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa was interested to speak to the rājarṣis. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān. He told to the... First of all He spoke to Vivasvān, the king of the sun planet. That picture is there? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Find out. First of all He spoke that... If you take history of Bhagavad*-gītā, then it comes to forty millions of years ago, at least, He spoke Bhagavad-gītā. How do you calculate? The calculation is there. Any intelligent man can calculate because Brahmā's duration of life is mentioned there. Sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brāhmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. So one yuga means forty-three lakhs of years and multiply it one thousand. That is Brahmā's duration of one day. Now, in one day there are seven Manus. So Vivasvān Manu's age can be calculated-at least forty millions of years ago. So the Bhagavad-gītā is not a new thing. It was spoken five thousand years ago to Arjuna. That was not the first speaking. He says, "I first spoke to Vivasvān, the sun-god." Yes, show him. (Bengali) ...I am manufacturing something. Everything is there. "If you simply follow, a great, wonderful thing will be done." She is now in a position. Simply she has to take the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā and apply it practically. And that is not very difficult. Just like the Bhagavad-gītā says, annād bhavanti... Parjanyād bhavanti bhūtāni. Make this program, immediately. Lalitā: The reaction will start. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalitā: And it is a proof. I will tell what Guru Mahārāja has done. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am simply... This is our process. We don't manufacture nonsense things. They are afraid of me because they see that in spite of their so many hypnotism and magic, and what is called, miracles, they are..., where they are and where I am. That is their fear. Lalitā: Fear. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They understood that "This man does not show any magic, and he is playing wonderful thing." That, every gentleman, every man, can understand. When I was at Kumbha*-melā all these Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, they were receiving me like anything because they understand that they could not do anything. How they can do? Kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nahe nāma pracāra. One must receive strength from the superior; *then it is possible. It is not a bogus thing, that anyone can do it. Kṛṣṇa śakti... It is stated in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Have you got Caitanya-caritāmṛta? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nahe pravartane. Prabhupāda: Nāma pracāra. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "Lord Kṛṣṇa's energies..." *Prabhupāda: And kṛṣṇa bhajanate nāhi jāti*-kulādi vicāra. These are all Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... What is that? In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. (Bengali) Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa and follow Him. Then you are successful. Lalitā: And I will tell her. Prabhupāda: Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. He says, "Kaunteya, take it for granted that My devotee will never be vanquished." Then you have to disbelieve all these words or you have to believe these words. There are two things. If you believe, then you are successful. If you don't believe... (Bengali) Lalitā: ...to cooperate with you to establish a good life. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is actually my intention. Otherwise I have cancelled a very big, big... (Bengali) Lalitā: (Bengali) ...immediately. She is eager to meet you. Prabhupāda: No, I am not dependent on him. I can cancel, accept anything. (laughter) Lalitā: (Bengali) ...only one, small, as a spiritual guide. And... (Bengali)...the photographer, with permission... (Bengali) Jayapatāka: The photographer can stay outside in the waiting room, and if they give permission, then we can enter. Prabhupāda: They can go, but when I meet, I'll take two, two secretaries. Lalitā: I have to tell two secretaries. "He is accompanied, two secretaries." Prabhupāda: Two secretaries, that's all. Lalitā: And allow them with camera. Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā: Allow the camera. Brahmānanda: The camera can be afterwards. Lalitā: Oh, after. Brahmānanda: Because Prabhupāda will be preaching, and he doesn't like photos taken while he is preaching. Also it may be possible to record the... Prabhupāda: No, you can take. What is there? You can take photograph. You? Or you? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So these two persons will be... Jayapatāka: Bhārgava is also there if they allow him after it's over to come... Prabhupāda: After that, yes. Brahmānanda: What about tape record? We could tape record the session also. Lalitā: They don't want that. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Lalitā: They say no. Prabhupāda: No, she has got political situation, so that's all right. We should not record. We shall talk and photo can be taken. That's all. (Bengali) Where is my, that letter? I wrote one. Brahmānanda: To Indira Gandhi? *Prabhupāda: Yes. I wrote one letter. When this trouble was there, so it came to my mind that, "Why there is trouble? All the leaders can follow Bhagavad*-gītā and then things will be all right." So I sent that letter. Indira Gandhi letter. Here. What did I write? Brahmānanda: "Your Excellency Śrīmatī Indira Gandhi." This is dated July 1st, 1975, from Evanston, Illinois. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom I wrote it? Brahmānanda: From Chicago. Prabhupāda: Chicago. *Brahmānanda: "May it please Your Excellency, enclosed please find one copy of my letter addressed to Śrī Jaya Prakash Narayanji. I wish that both of you may sit together and agree to join together to work on the basis of the instructions given in the Bhagavad*-gītā. It is practical and good for India as well as for the whole world situation. The whole world is expecting to receive something from Indian culture. Why not push this movement and solve the complete problems of India? I hope you will take this suggestion seriously and do the needful without delay. Thanking you in anticipation. I beg to remain..." Prabhupāda: So letter is already there. (Bengali) Lalitā: ...after Mojīva's(?) incident. She is very... (Bengali) Prabhupāda: So now what shall I write? Lalitā: (Bengali) He was busy for the world organiza..., but he has left everything. Prabhupāda: So shall I refer to your name? (Bengali) So take the... So "Your Excellency, Śrīmatī Indira Devi..." Indira Gandhi or Indira Devi? Lalitā: "Indira Devi" (Bengali) Prabhupāda: "Indira Devi Gandhi, when I was in Canada, in..." Montreal? Brahmānanda: Toronto. Prabhupāda: "When I was in Toronto, Canada, Śrīmatī Lalitā Devi, who is just like my daughter, sent me one intimation..." Brahmānanda: Sent me? Prabhupāda: "One intimation that you wanted to see me." Lalitā: No, I approached her. (Bengali) Prabhupāda: "She approached you for meeting with me..., with you for a meeting"? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "For me." *Prabhupāda: "For me with you. And I have come here, postponing all my engagements. I am preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world on the basis of Kṛṣṇa's instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Actually this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is called saṅkīrtana movement. Sometimes they call Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, which was inaugurated by Lord Caitanya in Bengal and throughout all India. His mission is that in India everyone should become a guru and preach all over the world the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. So we are doing this very faithfully, and it is becoming effective. I think in India also if some vigorous activity is done for awakening Kṛṣṇa consciousness of the Indian people under your leadership, it will be very, very effective." Lalitā: "And for the development of this country I can bring foreign exchange for..." Prabhupāda: No, why this? Lalitā: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: "So we have already about six branches in India..." Jayapatāka: Eight. Prabhupāda: "Eight. And all the development is being done by foreign exchange. So it can be continued if I get encouragement by the government. So I shall be very much pleased to see you in this connection." Lalitā: "I need your advices for this development." (Bengali) "With the help of government in villages." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I... Just that one point. In my speaking to Ganesha's(?) also, even when we tell them we are bringing huge amounts of foreign exchange from abroad, they at once say, "But how do you get this money abroad?" Prabhupāda: We sell our books. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So I was thinking maybe we could add a line or two on your books, that the foreign exchange is obtained. *Prabhupāda: Yes. "I have written about fifty books of four hundred pages on Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, Caitanya-caritamrta, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, and these books are very popular in the foreign countries, Europe and America." Lalitā: Is a biggest seller, I think... (Bengali) Prabhupāda: There is no record in the whole world. That religious books are selling twenty lakhs now, it is no record. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Back to Godhead alone has done that. Prabhupāda: So... Lalitā: You make... Prabhupāda: That's all right. "And by the sales proceeds I am bringing foreign exchange here." So I came here that she wants to see me, then why you are getting from me write... Lalitā: (Bengali) Next time after the meeting... (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Read it. Read it, what I have said. *Brahmānanda: "Your Excellency Śrīmatī Indira Devi Gandhi. When I was in Toronto, Canada, Śrīmatī Lalitā Devi, who is just like my daughter, sent me one intimation that she approached you for a meeting for you and myself. And I have come here, postponing all my engagements. I am preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world on the basis of Kṛṣṇa's instructions in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Actually this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is called the saṅkīrtana movement and sometimes called the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, which was inaugurated by Lord Caitanya in Bengal and throughout all India. His mission is that in India everyone should become a guru and preach all over the world." Prabhupāda: Everyone in India. Brahmānanda: "In India everyone should become a guru." Prabhupāda: No, no. "Everyone should become a guru." *Brahmānanda: "His mission is that everyone should become a guru and preach all over the world the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. So we are doing this very faithfully and it is becoming effective. I think in India also if some vigorous activity is done for awakening the Kṛṣṇa consciousness of the people under your leadership, it will be very effective. So we have already eight branches in India, and all development is being done by foreign exchange. It can be continued if I get encouragement by the government. So I shall be very much pleased to see you in this connection. I have written about fifty books of four hundred pages, such as Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam..." Prabhupāda: "Four hundred pages each." *Brahmānanda: "I have written about fifty books of four hundred pages each, such as Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, and these books are very popular in foreign countries, Europe and America. By sales proceeds I am bringing foreign exchange." Prabhupāda: That's all. Lalitā: (Bengali) ...development India. (Bengali) Prabhupāda: So you can give this letter to Lalitā. Lalitā: I think I will go to Prema's office and give it to Sesha and make an appointment. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to give the letter? Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Lalitā: This is all that he should do. (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Read again, if there is to be corrected. Just hear, everyone. Lalitā: (Bengali) Brahmānanda: "Your Excellency Śrīmatī Indira Devi Gandhi. When I was in Toronto, Canada, Śrīmatī Lalitā Devi, who is just like my daughter, sent me one intimation that she approached you for a meeting with myself." Prabhupāda: "With me. " Lalitā: "With me." Prabhupāda: "A meeting with me and you." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we say "Miss Lalitā Bose" or just "Miss Lalitā"? Lalitā: No, Lalitā will... That's all. She knows me. *Brahmānanda: "When I was in Toronto, Canada, Śrīmatī Lalitā Devi, who is just like my daughter, sent me one intimation that she approached you for a meeting with me and you, and I have come here, postponing all my engagements. I am preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world on the basis of Kṛṣṇa's instructions in Bhagavad*-gītā. Actually this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is called the saṅkīrtana movement and sometimes called the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, which was inaugurated by Lord Caitanya in Bengal and throughout all India. His mission is that everyone should become a guru and preach all over the world the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. So we are doing this very faithfully, and it is becoming effective. I think in India also, if some vigorous activity is done for awakening the Kṛṣṇa consciousness of the people under your leadership, it will be very effective. So we have already eight branches in India, and all development is being done by foreign exchange. It can be continued if I get encouragement by the government. So I shall be very much pleased to see you in this connection. I have written about fifty books of four hundred pages each, such as Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, and these books are very popular in foreign countries such as Europe and America. By the sales proceeds I am bringing foreign exchange." "Yours sincerely?" *Prabhupāda: "Yours sincerely" all right, or "Your well*-wisher"? *Lalitā: "Well*-wisher." *Prabhupāda: "Your well*-wisher." (Bengali) Word is already there. Sādhu śāstra guru vākya, tinete karīyā aikya. (Bengali) So immediately type it and give it to her. Jayapatāka: Where it says that "I am bringing foreign exchange," in the end, "by selling my books I am bringing foreign exchange," it's for India's development? Prabhupāda: For developing my scheme here. Jayapatāka: And Gopāla Kṛṣṇa mentioned the point that... We're bringing foreign exchange. Whether there should be any word that also signifies that we have local support also? Prabhupāda: Local support, that is understood. (Bengali) So our "books popular in foreign countries as well as in India." We are getting money also by these books. Brahmānanda: We have quotations from professors in America and also India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalitā: And which we will take, this one and the professor Kajal.(?) (Bengali) You will give one *Gītā*, your writing to... You will present *Gītā*. And you lead your life according to this teachings. But she is great (Bengali) She is full of bhakti. But she needs good guidance. Anandamaya Ma is doing, but she can't come to her. So guidance, practical guidance also. *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) So I shall personally teach Bhagavad*-gītā. Her and her most confidential associates or who is governing. That I can do. (Bengali) Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. I wanted a rājarṣi to take up this movement seriously, but I could not get till now. If she becomes, it will be benefit for me, for the world, for her, everyone. Because I have no power, I have no money, but if one rājarṣi who has got strength, money, intelligence, if she takes, then it will be very quickly successful. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, His movement became very successful when Mahārāja Pratāparudra of Orissa took it. Gautama Buddha's movement was successful when Aśoka, Mahārāja Aśoka took it. It requires. And Kṛṣṇa says, rājarṣayo viduḥ. Lalitā: (Bengali) She is very cunning. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) She is spiritually inclined. She goes to so many spiritual men, but they cannot give her guidance. That means she has some inclination. That I can understand. Just like these for..., American boys, they are after spiritual enlightenment and all the swamis and yogis who went there simply exploited them because they have no knowledge, neither they are prepared to take knowledge from the authority, Kṛṣṇa. That is their defect. That is their defect. Lalitā: They have become Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore they could not give any... Lalitā: Everybody is Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Lalitā: If you go anywhere, he is Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: He is Bhagavān. *Lalitā: Now full Kali. (Bengali) Kali*-yuga (Bengali) Everybody is busy with their duties. Prabhupāda: Ah, they are engaged. Lalitā: No time to talk. Prabhupāda: I don't allow them to sit down. Lalitā: At other āśramas you go and see. I go every āśramas. So I reported that now you catch all the sādhus. I'm giving a secret letter that, "All the black marketeers with them, sitting, chatting and patting, and you catch them. Then all the smugglers you will get. Sai Baba... (Bengali) He will throw you out. And he is exploiting that girl, and I have got a picture, very bad picture, with me. (Bengali) "Bhagavān Satya Sai Baba." So she hates him. And (Bengali) I have seen Satya Sai Baba. I know he is, what type of man he is. (Bengali) Government letter, certified. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the foreign countries. Lalitā: (Bengali) ...what personality you are. Prabhupāda: Thousands of Americans will do that. Thousands. Lalitā: (Bengali) Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. (Bengali) You just sit and write. *Prabhupāda: If you take my guidance I'll stay. Our guidance means on the basis of Bhagavad*-gītā. I don't manufacture. That is my... Lalitā: (Bengali) ...prime minister already... (Bengali) This is my experience about Prabhupāda's ISKCON. I am a layman... (Bengali) How you are writing on... (Bengali) ...what you are. I am the life member. (Bengali) The member of the advisory counsel..."Who are you?" "I am a member of that council." "I see. I see." (Bengali) West Bengal Security Force ...is a very good report about Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Bengali) Very good report. "Please ask prime minister, allow them to stay." Prabhupāda: Governor... Lalitā: U.P. Prabhupāda: U.P. (Bengali) They must understand the philosophy. So is that all right? So make it. Lalitā: (Bengali) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can go down. Prabhupāda: Give her prasāda. Jayapatāka: In case they want to see what type of..., how we like to develop in the village scheme, should I keep the Māyāpur program ready? Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalitā: And immediately the world can... Prabhupāda: These pictures and everything. Jayapatāka: I wrote out the whole thing. As soon I can give it to you... Prabhupāda: That's all right. You make... Keep that... That I'll present personally, not now. Later. Lalitā: When he is meeting, he will unveil. "Already we have started the schemes and we can expand with the help of government." [break] (Bengali) Lalitā: (To Brahmānanda:) Listen, please. One point. Prabhupāda: Where is that letter? Brahmānanda: To Indira Gandhi? Prabhupāda: So mention that I require... Lalitā: Hundred... Prabhupāda: How many... Brahmānanda: When you talk about "I... So we have already eight branches in India. All development is being done by foreign exchange. It can be continued if I get encouragement by the government." Prabhupāda: "And foreign assistance, about one hundred men." That's all. Lalitā: (Bengali) Brahmānanda: "Foreign assistance, numbering about one hundred." Lalitā: Missionary... (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Then what is there? Brahmānanda: "So we have already eight branches in India, and all development is being done by foreign exchange and foreign assistance numbering about one hundred." Prabhupāda: "Mostly. Mostly by foreign exchange and foreign assistance. Mostly." It is not that there is no Indian. Mostly. Lalitā: "I want." "I want from you." (Bengali) Prabhupāda: So, "If you..." Brahmānanda: "It can be continued if I get encouragement by the government." Prabhupāda: "By giving these foreigners missionary..." What is called? "Missionary visa"? Is that all right? Lalitā: "Missionary visa..." (Bengali) Citizenship... (Bengali) Prabhupāda: What you have said? Brahmānanda: "It can be continued if I get encouragement by the government." Prabhupāda: "By allowing these foreign assistant as missionary men." That's all. Brahmānanda: "As missionaries." Prabhupāda: "As missionary men." Or "missionaries." Lalitā: "Missionaries..." (Bengali). So they will see in what way they can best. Prabhupāda: That's all. Jaya. (end) Morning Walk -- August 24, 1975, Delhi *Brahmānanda: ...six and 1975 is seventy*-nine years? *Prabhupāda: Seventy*-nine complete. Now, from first September, eightieth begins. Beginning eightieth. The age is taken... So we are not going to... Where? Harikeśa: Actually we don't know. Jayapatāka: Get Tejas. Where is Tejas? Devotee (1): He's coming now. Brahmānanda: There's some park near here, he said? Indian gate? Prabhupāda: No, no. He said we shall go to Indian gate? Harikeśa: Where you usually go? Prabhupāda: Is there any car? Harikeśa: Is there a car? Brahmānanda: There's no car. Jayapatāka: He said he knew a short walk. Harikeśa: Where is Tejas? [break] Prabhupāda: ...that house? Brahmānanda: They couldn't contact the man yesterday so they did not see it. [break] Prabhupāda: The daughter rises early in the morning? Your daughter? Woman devotee (2): Yes. She comes to maṅgala-ārati every day. Prabhupāda: Oh. That's nice. Good qualification. Harikeśa: Is there a fan? A fan. A fan. Prabhupāda: What is that? Brahmānanda: He wanted one fan. Prabhupāda: Fan? No. Harikeśa: The reason is flies. They're terrible. [break] *Jayapatāka: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, the deputy director of tourism of the government of West Bengal came out to visit Māyāpur. He said that many people have been wanting to see Māyāpur and Navadvipa. And the nearest guesthouse they have is Berhampur. They have a guest house at Berhampur. So they wanted to know the possibility if a bus of twenty*-four people could use our guesthouse. They offered thirty rupees a night per room and said that normally they pay six rupees per meal. They wouldn't smoke or break any rules while they go in the building. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Let them come. So in one room, one person? Jayapatāka: Two people. Double room. *Prabhupāda: Thirty*-two rupees? Jayapatāka: Thirty rupees. Prabhupāda: Thirty rupees. And meals? Jayapatāka: Six rupees a meal they are accustomed to pay. Prabhupāda: That's very nice. Jayapatāka: Either rice, dahl, and... Prabhupāda: Capati. Jayapatāka: And sabji. Otherwise puri and sabji. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Why not begin immediately? Jayapatāka: Yes. Bhāgavata: Also that other man approached, that farm person? Jayapatāka: Of course, that... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...self*-independent, or self dependent. Bhāgavata: If we build up enough trade, tourist trade, like that in the guesthouse, then Māyāpur can maintain itself very easily. *Prabhupāda: So do it. [break] ...of the modern civilization, they are thinking that having such nice house, nice motorcar, nice road, nice machine, nice dress, nice woman, they will be happy. This is advancement of civilization. What is this? Don't drink, don't smoke, no meat, simply denying, denying? This is civilization. They think "This is practical. And after death who is going to take care?" Bhasmī*-bhutasya dehasya kutaḥ punar-āgamano bhavet: "When the body is finished, burning into ashes, who is coming, and who is responsible?" This is atheistic civilization. [break] ...artha-maninaḥ. External energy, that is everything. Within the body there is the soul. They deny it. There is no soul, body is everything, and enjoy bodily enjoyment. That's all. And our philosophy immediately condemns that "Anyone who is in the bodily concept of life, he is sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]; he is animal." So this is a park? Indian man: A small park. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a lot of parks of this type. Prabhupāda: ...India Gate? Tejas: India Gate is this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. You have to go this side or this side? Tejas: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ravindra Thakur? Tejas: Ravindra Bhavan. Prabhupāda: Yes. I sold my books here. When I was alone, I was selling books. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You would go to different libraries and colleges? Prabhupāda: Especially colleges and libraries. Everyone was taking. Bhāgavata: Even the prime minister, Lal Bahadur Sastri, you gave him book. Prabhupāda: Yes. He was good man. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He was very religious. I think if he would have been there today we would have had no problem. Prabhupāda: Very good. (Hindi) He could not solve his own problem. [break] ...court? No. Tejas: This is Mundi House. Prabhupāda: Mundi House means? Tejas: Mahārāja of Mundi. Now it's a television studio. Prabhupāda: Rajwari garden, they are serious about? Tejas: He is serious. This morning I will go there because I tried to contact them yesterday and was not able to. We will go first thing this morning, after we get back. [break] Prabhupāda: You put forth such new, I think. It was not before. But they have supplied so rotten materials. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Breaking. [break] Prabhupāda: ...class in the temple? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: At what time? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually the class, the morning class is over, but we can... Delhi has a different schedule. Brahmānanda: Class is at five o'clock. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a Bhagavad*-gītā class in the evening. Prabhupāda: What is this building? Tejas: This is Ayana Bhavan. [break] Prabhupāda: ...Balarāma's. So fasting. Tejas: Yes. Till noon? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Then a feast? Prabhupāda: Hm. [break] Who is he? Brahmānanda: He's some Italian astronomer. He invented the telescope. Prabhupāda: Invented telescope? Brahmānanda: So they could speculate about the stars and planets. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...all the British names out and replaced them with Italian and Indian and other names. Tejas: Many Muslim names they have replaced also. Because they are supposed to be historical. [break] Prabhupāda: This is the road. This is the bus. [break] *Tejas: Many of the members are reading the books now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. One man, he is coming tonight. He has read your Bhagavad*-gītā six times now. He is very enthusiastic. Now he is thinking that he has wasted his whole life. That's the way he talks. Prabhupāda: Yes. If he comes to that conclusion, then he becomes perfect. *Tejas: He told me, "I have read so many Bhagavad*-gītās previously, but never was the commentation clear. I could not understand the meaning." Prabhupāda: Yes. They simply jugglery of words. Tejas: All impersonal. Bhāgavata: There was one man in Calcutta. You stayed in his house just before you left for America, and later he became a sannyāsī. He sings bhajans. He became a sannyāsī later. He knew you very well. You had written him a letter, and he just recently became a patron, and he is reading your books now also. I have forgotten his name, but he knew you very, very well. He used to sing bhajans. [break] Prabhupāda: ...dranatha statue? [break] ...some contribution through that... What is that temple? No, no, Chandi Chowk? Tejas: Ācchā. Gauri Shankar. Prabhupāda: Gauri Shankar. I think, that Sita Ram? Sita Ram? He is living or not? Tejas: Which Sita Ram? Prabhupāda: He is one Mr. Sita Ram. He was secretary. Sita Ram barrister. So he introduced me there, and they agreed to pay me 1,500. Tejas: For the books. Prabhupāda: No. For some paper. Tejas: He is friends with Bim Sen, but he is not like Bim Sen. He's a different bird. Prabhupāda: Bim Sen? (Dogs barking) Tejas: He's associated with Bim Sen in some projects. Prabhupāda: Who is Bim Sen? Tejas: Bim Sen, he comes with the... Prabhupāda: Oh. So sweetmeat market? Tejas: Yes. That sweetmeat market. [break] Prabhupāda: ...was a Hindu minister, chief minister of Akbar. Emperor Akbar, his chief minister was Todarmal. Tejas: Babar was also a minister of his? Prabhupāda: Babar was father of Akbar, Babar. Tejas: These are all Muslim names here. Prabhupāda: It was Muslim kingdom. Todarmal is Hindu. The Muslim emperors, they used to employ Hindus as chief of department. Tejas: Like Rūpa Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: They did not believe Muslims to become the chief. They knew it very well that these Muslims are not reliable. They can kill their father even. (end) Morning Walk -- August 25, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: So parikrama path, this way? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This way. Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's this way, the parikrama. [break] ...the best land for our purposes because the children can just run back and forth. Child: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Jaya. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...completed in one month. There's a sign over here. Prabhupāda: Oh. That's nice. Jaya. This is also lying vacant? So we are... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Haribol. Jaya. Dhanañjaya: This is lying vacant also. Prabhupāda: Whose land it is? Dhanañjaya: This is a part of the Christian land. Jayapatāka: Śrīla Prabhupāda, walk on the right. Dhanañjaya: So the Christians... [break] Prabhupāda: So what they are doing? Dhanañjaya: Well, Praṇava, he was investigating. Prabhupāda: Investigating for life. Whole life, simply investigating. Dhanañjaya: But now, since the rains have been here, this whole countryside has become very, very green. It seems like the land is very fertile. Grass is growing so profusely like this. Prabhupāda: Arrange a meeting with the D.M. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Mr. Bagla, the D.M. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I've heard he wants to see the film very badly. He wants to see our Hare Kṛṣṇa film, the D.M. So we are waiting for it from Delhi. Dhanañjaya: It is coming this morning. Prabhupāda: Oh. D.M. is coming? Dhanañjaya: No. The film is coming this morning. Devotee (1): There's a cart. Brahmānanda: The D.M. heard that Indira Gandhi saw the film. So there's so much talk going on now. So now he wants to see the film. Prabhupāda: So then he will come. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: And then we shall give him good refreshment. Bhāgavata: The assistant chief of police from Mathurā has booked the V.I.P. room for the 29th and 30th of this month. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For whom? Bhāgavata: For himself and his family. He wants to stay in the V.I.P. room for two days. He booked about a week ago. Prabhupāda: For Janmāṣṭamī. Bhāgavata: Yes, for Janmāṣṭamī he wants to stay. Brahmānanda: For free. Bhāgavata: No, no. Brahmānanda: He'll pay? Bhāgavata: Yes. Gurṇārṇava: Of course, he's going to pay. Prabhupāda: V.I.P. room, our? Bhāgavata: Yes. Our V.I.P. room. Brahmānanda: What is the charges for the V.I.P. room? Dhanañjaya: Twenty rupees. All this land between Chattikara Road and Pagala Baba's āśrama, mandir, is very good for cultivation. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Who does it belong to? Different farms? Dhanañjaya: Yes. And government. Prabhupāda: Which way we shall go? Gurṇārṇava: Where shall we go? Prabhupāda: This way or that? Which way? Nobody can say? Dhanañjaya: This is the parikrama. This path is here, better. Prabhupāda: Let us go this way. [break] ...Bon Mahārāja's land? No. Dhanañjaya: Not all. This fence... Brahmānanda: That's his building there? Dhanañjaya: Yes. He has 28 acres of land. Prabhupāda: Where? He has altogether 83 acres, so far I know. What is this? [break] ...this way, this way, from back side. Then? [break] Brahmānanda: ...going on in that Pagala āśrama? Gurṇārṇava: Very slow. Dhanañjaya: They say another five years before it's finished. Prabhupāda: By that time he may be finished. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have heard he's a chain smoker. Brahmānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And the Marwaris are after him, "avatāra." He is called "līlā*-avatāra." Whatever he does, it is līlā. Smoking is also "līlā." [break] ...these cottages? Dhanañjaya: Some sādhus live here. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Vṛndāvana resident: Jaya Sītā*-Rāma! Prabhupāda: Jaya. [break] ...Bon Mahārāja's land? Dhanañjaya: Yes. This is his building, part of land. Prabhupāda: So we shall have to go back from this way or there is another way? Harikeśa: There's a path up here that goes straight across Bon Mahārāja's land. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] Dhanañjaya: ...all this has subsided. [break] Prabhupāda: ...and did he? Dhanañjaya: We will find out. Prabhupāda: So much land is vacant here. Brahmānanda: What are these plants here? [break] Jayapatāka: ...much more available here. Dhanañjaya: And the soil is such good quality. Everything is growing. [break] Prabhupāda: ...land belongs to somebody because it is barbed wire. Brahmānanda: Very nice fencing here. Prabhupāda: [break] ...this janglee. (?) Jayapatāka: They make oil from this now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Castor seed? Jayapatāka: Kusuma or something like that, I think. [break] Prabhupāda: ...this is? Dhanañjaya: This is Akaṇḍhānanda Swami. Akaṇḍhānanda Mahārāja. [break] Prabhupāda: ...just straight or return back? Brahmānanda: Where is that path, Harikeśa? Gurṇārṇava: The path is just ahead. Prabhupāda: (Here?) We are Bon Mahārāja's land? No. Woman: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dhanañjaya: That we must find out. Jayapatāka: You go to the settlement office and you ask for information sheet. Then you can find all this. Get a map and then for each plot ask for information sheet. One rupee for five names. (kīrtana in background) [break] *Prabhupāda: Oh, Sītā*-Rāma. Dhanañjaya: They've been chanting for sixty years. Prabhupāda: Sixty years? Continually? Dhanañjaya: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: We have no worker. That is the... So even if we secure land, if there is no worker, what is the use? All this land is not being worked on. No work prepared. [break] ...Bon Mahārāja's tomb? [break] ...maṭha. Gurṇārṇava: What are the inscriptions? Prabhupāda: Dvaitādvaita, I think. Nimbārka philosophy. Brahmānanda: What are these things? Gates or something? Prabhupāda: Yes, philosophy. They wanted to make it Vaiṣṇava philosophy anyway. So these are different... Brahmānanda: Oh. Sampradāyas? Prabhupāda: Yes, of Vaiṣṇava. [break] ...to anyone, neither he will do anything. [break] Dhanañjaya: ...Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Prabhupāda: Nobody's taking care. Harikeśa: They make it clear across. (?) Prabhupāda: In this place it is closed with wall? Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. Formerly there was no wall. Harikeśa: No, there was no wall. Brahmānanda: Not a brick wall. Dhanañjaya: That is no... Actually the principal of the college, he has more say in the running of the college than Bon Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: He dictates. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: How many students are in this college? Prabhupāda: When he comes, Bon Mahārāja, here? Dhanañjaya: Well, yesterday we went to see, but he is suffering form bronchitis and a fever. He was lying in his bed. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He looked quite sick. Brahmānanda: You saw him? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what they said. [break] Prabhupāda: ...teachers' quarter? No. Harikeśa: This is that part of Agra University. This belongs to Agra University. Prabhupāda: Agra U...? Dhanañjaya: Not belonging. It's affiliated, affiliated to Agra University. But it's belonging to this board of trustees, who operate the college. The land is belonging to Bon Mahārāja, but the board of trustees, they control the activities of the Institute. Prabhupāda: So this building for the board of... Devotee (1): These are for studying science, politics, geography, economics, and so on. It's just like any other college. There is no oriental philosophy being studied. There is only one student who is actually studying philosophy in the whole college, Vaiṣṇava philosophy. [break] Prabhupāda: ...Fogel āśrama? Gurṇārṇava: Fogel āśrama is further down, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What is this āśrama? Dhanañjaya: This is no āśrama, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's just houses. Gurṇārṇava: Just houses. Prabhupāda: Just house? Oh. Nobody is living? Gurṇārṇava: Yes, they're living. Prabhupāda: (to a passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Bengali) Jayapatāka: It seems that when the schools allow the outside teachers in, then it falls down. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatāka: When the schools allow outside professional teachers into the institutions, then they seem to go down. Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately. Jayapatāka: I was investigating in West Bengal. So long as you have your own teachers and you don't take any aid from them, then all they have to do is see that your grounds are up to the..., buildings are up to the standard. They don't have much say. Prabhupāda: That we want. Jaya. (kīrtana in background) Brahmānanda: There is still fifteen minutes, Prabhupāda, before the curtains open. Prabhupāda: So we can begin our... Curtain opens? Dhanañjaya: The gates open at 7:30, in forty minutes. Prabhupāda: So we can have our other function? Dhanañjaya: Yes, *Bhāgavatam* class. Harikeśa: Guru pūjā? Dhanañjaya: Guru pūjā. [break] (end) Morning Walk -- August 26, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Neither of you saw this? [break] ...in Delhi? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hindi books. Hindi books are selling very well. Prabhupāda: So what to do with this unfinished part? It will never be finished. That is the difficulty. We supplied three lakhs rupees monthly. Still, when I come, it is unfinished. Unfinished. I do not know when it will be finished. And whenever money is given, the report is "Money is finished, but thing is not finished. Money is finished, but things are not finished." *Guṇārṇava: Well, there's some ninety*-four thousand rupees in the Punjab Bank, but that's for finalizing all the contracts. Saurab said that... Prabhupāda: Your explanation there. I want to see that it is not (now?) finished. That's all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All that money in the bank is to pay the overhead. Guṇārṇava: So I wrote to him and he said that it is going for paying contracts. Prabhupāda: Contract, why don't you pay the contract? Liquidate all debts? Guṇārṇava: Mr. Lahiri and Saurab are checking the bills. He said that you wanted it checked three or four times. Prabhupāda: Who? Oh. Guṇārṇava: So that they have all the bills and contracts in... Prabhupāda: Who is checking? Guṇārṇava: Bombay... Saurab and Mr. Lahiri together. He is coming this week. Prabhupāda: Bill is paid. Now it is checking. And before paying the bill there was not check. This is going on. After payment, checking is going on. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Final payments have not been made. Prabhupāda: So that will never be made, because you will never finish your business. That is the difficulty. Guṇārṇava: Saurab wrote me letter, and he told me that all remaining works have to be financed by the guesthouse, any money that was made from the guesthouse had to be utilized in finishing all works. Prabhupāda: And where is guest? So many things unfinished. It looks so bad. And you say everything is all right. What is all right? Do you know what is all right? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We didn't have any money to finish... Prabhupāda: Then why do you say all right? Money is not there; then how it is all right? Why do you say all right? Say not all right. Money is not there. So this is the position. Guesthouse, if it is organized, yesterday we calculated we can get five hundred, six hundred rupees daily. So why it should not be done? That is also incomplete. Everything is incomplete. Source of income incomplete, and whole thing is incomplete. Dhanañjaya: Guṇārṇava Prabhu has estimated that it will cost at least another five thousand rupees... Guṇārṇava: 75,000. Prabhupāda: So I know that even if it is given, 75,000, you'll never finish it. That I know. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What we are doing is... Prabhupāda: Then you will say, "Our estimate was wrong. We were mistaken." This is going on. Several times, "This is estimate," money paid-"No, it was wrong. Pay more." This is going on. What is the estimate, what is the right estimate, nobody knows. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What we will do is now we're going to be producing surplus from our income. That surplus is going to be used for fixing up... Prabhupāda: That is "to be." I am speaking what is done. That I am speaking. That is "to be." The "to be" is going on for the last so many years. Now you utilize... You are getting money, but still "to be." You are getting so much money, daily income, two hundred rupees, three hundred rupees. Still "to be." You do not know what will be the actual solution. So many big, big heads, and there is no solution. I do not know what to do. So many things unfinished. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So far, there wasn't any surplus. Now there's a surplus... Prabhupāda: Where is the surplus? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it will start coming. Now it is... From Jhulan*-yātrā our income has picked up. Prabhupāda: But you have got money? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now we will have a surplus. Prabhupāda: You'll... Again "to be." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: End of this month. Prabhupāda: Again "to be." Again, at the end of this month, again "to be." Again "will be." Say "We have no money." That's all. Why do you say indirectly? "It will be." So many managers and so many discrepancies. Guṇārṇava: Akṣayānanda Swami is going to collect. Prabhupāda: He is collecting money. He is also paying? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He hasn't been collecting that much. Prabhupāda: What he has collected? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, when he went to Kanpur he collected 21,000 Prabhupāda: And that is also gone to the belly. Brahmānanda: Out of the 21,000, five checks were returned, so 5,550 rupees... Prabhupāda: They have gone to belly? Dhanañjaya: No. They have to be deducted because... Brahmānanda: So then what was the collection? Dhanañjaya: Collection was sixteen thousand. And eight thousand went to the BBT. *Prabhupāda: So why that eight thousand was not utilized to finish this business? BBT might be delayed, but what is this? Everything is unfinished. Huh? The doors are neither colored, neither painted, neither polished. As you have no money. And you are getting money and all going to the belly. So do rightly. You are so big, big heads. Baro baro badare baro baro pet laṅka dingake mata kare het: "Big, big monkey, big, big belly*-Ceylon jumping, melancholy." Huh? With big belly a monkey comes forward, and if you ask him, "Jump over like Hanumānji," finished, belly finished. These are Bengali words. Baro baro badare baro baro pet laṅka dingake mata kare het. "I cannot do it." And why you have got so much belly? So this is not good. Make plan. You'll go on plan-making. Oh, you'll never be done. What can be done? I want to get rid of the management, but when I see, I have to see the management, how can I remain stopped? As soon as I see things are mismanaged, I have to say. I am not dumb. So this is the... And you report that "Everything is first class." What is this first class? Do you know meaning of first class? This is first class? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm sorry. I... Prabhupāda: That's all. You simply become sorry and everything is finished. That's all. I do not know what to do. [break] ... whatever you like. Whatever like, what can I do? (Bengali conversation) So what are you going to do about this finishing? Everything... (Hindi?) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll start getting it done now. Prabhupāda: How you'll do? You say you have no money. How you'll do it? Whole money is going to the stomach. All ghee, all money, everything. And becoming sick and sleepy. Whole day and night sleep. I do not know when it will be finished. What is the use of starting another Gurukula? Whatever you have taken, that is not yet finished. All savvy(?). And your report is, "Everything is all right." Everything is all right except nothing is finished. So I do not know how to do. There was shops made, and why it is closed again? Dhanañjaya: Because Mr. Sharapi(?) came. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let him go to the court. We shall see. Dhanañjaya: Now he's agreed. Prabhupāda: Then now again break; again make shop. This is going on. There was no expenditure to make the shop, and again closing, there was expenditure. So money is spent like this-"Make it and break it." That is American way. Dhanañjaya: There is no cement. It is all mud, just muddy. Prabhupāda: That is explanation. (Hindi) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because it happened on his land, he was very much against it, but those shops... Prabhupāda: That is all right, but why did you not ask me? And why you did you not ask me before opening the shop, if you have no brain? If you have no brain, then why did you not ask? You give explanation, "Because that was not." That was not. So why did you do it? And money is coming, "Give me. Send me two lakhs, four lakhs," and things are unfinished. (Bengali) Brahmānanda: There's still twenty minutes. We could begin the program. Prabhupāda: When they begin? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: 7:30. We can have Guru*-pūjā now and small kīrtana before the Deities open. (end) Morning Walk -- August 27, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Who is this? [break] Hm? Yes. Upendra: They don't like nim? The flies. Prabhupāda: That ask them. (laughter) You do not expect all answers from me, whether the flies like or not like. This is antiseptic. Nim is very, very antiseptic. Therefore it is natural, the flies and bugs, they are afraid of. Yes. [break]...here? Harikeśa: He's the purchaser. Akṣayānanda: He does shopping. Prabhupāda: Namaskar. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Long Hindi conversation with someone) Dandhariya. Where is he? (Hindi) He knows how to capture. He is the... (Hindi) Guṇārṇava, he has not come? Akṣayānanda: No. Prabhupāda: So he is going to Mathurā? You told him? Huh? Akṣayānanda: He is going after breakfast. Devotee: What is the purpose? Akṣayānanda: To meet Prabhupāda's relative, I think? Prabhupāda: Yes. You have told? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So from Mathurā he can bring that medicine. You can give him. Devotee: Castor oil. Akṣayānanda: I'll tell him, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, no, castor oil can be had... Devotee: I'll have him bring it. Prabhupāda: You can take the vial. There is, what is called? Sadhana ausadhalaya. Indian man: Dakkha. (?) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Dakkha ta. (Hindi) From there you have to take it. Sadhana. On the bottle it is written there. (Hindi exchange with someone) They will never take seriously your Māyāvāda philosophy. (Hindi) Kṛṣṇa aparādhī. They are offender to Kṛṣṇa, all these Māyāvādīs. And in Vṛndāvana this Māyāvādī philosophy has become very strong. Even the so*-called Vaiṣṇavas, they are also... (Hindi) Buddhist, they say that there is no God. Indian man: They can't believe God. *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, they deny. Therefore we call them atheist. But these Māyāvādī, they take the shelter of Vedas and they preach the same philosophy. "Yes, brahman*-nirakara." (Hindi) ...don't believe in God... (Hindi) For the time being, Śaṅkarācārya might have said something like that to turn the Buddhists again to Vedas, but that is temporary. But they have taken it all true. (Hindi) ...eighty-five years they are working. They have no position. (Hindi) What is that? TM? Brahmānanda: TM, Transcendental Meditation. Prabhupāda: And what is the items they say? Brahmānanda: No philosophy, no belief, no restrictions. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Just see. He advertises. Mahesh Yogi. Indian man: Mahesh Yogi, yes. Followers, they are taking everything. Prabhupāda: He says, "There is no restriction, or no philosophy, no faith." (Hindi conversation) Recently one book was published by Professor Judah. He has studied this movement for five years. He came to India. So he has written one book, Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture, but scholarly. (Hindi) He appreciated. (Hindi) ...and the fifty books I have, four hundred pages each. And we Akṣayānanda: Nobody knows your limit, Prabhupāda. Nobody knows your limit. Prabhupāda: No, generally. Who remembers? Harikeśa: It was way back there. Brahmānanda: It was back there by that... (laughter) Prabhupāda: Huh? No, no. I remember. Akṣayānanda: I think it was here somewhere. [break] Prabhupāda: Ants are freely moving. They do not know it is dangerous. Similarly, all these living entities in material world, they think, "It is not dangerous. It is all right." Ant civilization. French devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is there some worship of God in the animal kingdom? Prabhupāda: No. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: Hut hut hut hut! Prabhupāda: "Hut" will not do. Brahmānanda: Stick will do. Prabhupāda: At least show. [break] Trees and other lower animals, they are abiding by the order of Kṛṣṇa. That is worship. Brahmānanda: But is it voluntary or involuntary? Prabhupāda: By force. By force now this tree is standing. He has to stand up here. It cannot move an inch. Brahmānanda: Is that considered worship? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is. Akṣayānanda: Indirect worship. Prabhupāda: ...indirect worship, abiding. Just like you don't worship the government, revolt. But when you are put into jail you have to worship the government. Akṣayānanda: We don't worship, yet we don't break the law. Prabhupāda: You cannot break the law. Outside you break law. That you can do. But when you are put into jail, then you cannot. And jail means unless the government finds that you are now obedient to the government laws... (dog growling and barking) Brahmānanda: Hut! Prabhupāda: He is taking our shelter, (laughter) the other dog. Akṣayānanda: I've seen dogs follow saṅkīrtana party for many miles. Once a dog was following, and he had tilaka, he had a tilaka mark on his head. Prabhupāda: No, no. Who? Who marked it? Somebody? No, no. You should not do it. Brahmānanda: Did someone put tilaka on the dog? Akṣayānanda: Oh, I mean to say the color of his body was such. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another thing. But you cannot put tilaka. Don't make tilaka so cheap. Natural tilaka, that is another thing. Akṣayānanda: Yes. French devotee (2): If a devotee step on the ant, does the ant receive some benefit? Prabhupāda: Hm? French devotee (2): If a devotee step on a ant by mistake, the ant... Prabhupāda: You should be careful. Why should you commit mistake? But if unconsciously, by mistake it is done, that is another thing. Brahmānanda: He wants to know does the ant receive benefit? Prabhupāda: No. Then he will be lenient to kill them to give them benefit. (laughter) He'll be so... Brahmānanda: Like they say "mercy killing," that "This is good for you. I will kill you and it is good for you." Prabhupāda: Yes. You should always think that you are responsible for its killing. But it may be Kṛṣṇa may excuse you. That is another thing. Consciously you cannot kill. [break] Akṣayānanda: ...people in India, Prabhupāda, are still pure vegetarians, but almost all of their children eat eggs, and try to smoke cigarettes, and they don't stop them because they don't have any philosophy because of the Māyāvādī philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Almost 90% of all the people we preach to, they are all influenced by Māyāvādī philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. That I was talking. [break] Brahmānanda: ...say that the egg is from God, and the apple is from God. Prabhupāda: So why don't you eat apple? (laughter) Akṣayānanda: They are also envious of you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I know that. Do they say like that? Akṣayānanda: Not directly. But when we explain how many things, what is being done and we show photographs, how people have become devotees, they will say, "Yes, but have you heard of Swami so and so?" And we'll say, "Yes, we have heard of him. But our Guru Mahārāja has got thousands of devotees all over the world." "Yes, he has also got thousands of devotees." They'll minimize, even though it's there in black and white. Prabhupāda: But where they are? Brahmānanda: Yeah. Where are those thousands of disciples of these other swamis? Prabhupāda: "Here we are, but where are the swami's disciples?" Ask them. Akṣayānanda: Then they will become angry. Prabhupāda: "No, no. Well, don't be angry. Well, Bhaktivedanta Swami's disciples, we are present here. Present anyone else. So how shall I believe you?" Akṣayānanda: Then they will say, "We are doing the same as you. But we don't have to help you because we are already doing the same thing. We are feeding the poor, giving charity." Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not understand. Akṣayānanda: But yet their children are eating eggs, giving up. [break] Brahmānanda: ...say that they are doing the same thing that we are doing, then that should be a reason to help us, not to not help us. If we're doing the same thing, therefore if you are helping one, then you must help the other also. Akṣayānanda: Yes. That's what I tell them. They say, "We already helped the other, but you came too late, so therefore we can't help you." Prabhupāda: "So you are so poor?"-(aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa-"that you cannot help the second man? Then how you are charitable? You must be open to give charity to everyone." No use talking. French devotee (1): They are very rich, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They are very rich. Prabhupāda: Richer than us? (laughter) Do you think? French devotee (1): No. Prabhupāda: How many branches he has got of his business? Akṣayānanda: So I usually tell them, "It is not for us that we want help, but so that we can help others." They like that. They can appreciate humanitarian viewpoint, material benefit. That's all. *Prabhupāda: So we are giving the best humanitarian service*-to stop his repetition of birth and death. Brahmānanda: The final solution. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: This is the final solution. Akṣayānanda: In India, now in the cities, wherever we go, there are so many big cinema houses being built. So if the young people are not yet tired of that, then how will we convince them of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? They all go by the thousands to the cinema house. Prabhupāda: You approach the cinema proprietor and make him a member. We have got contribution from a very big cinema man. Brahmānanda: Raj Kapoor has become a patron member. Prabhupāda: You can show his letter, how he appreciates. So similarly, you can collect some money. So this money is coming from the cinema visitors, so indirectly they will be benefited. Yes. Akṣayānanda: Money is there, and they give. Still they'll go on showing the nonsense, and all the young people are going and being corrupted. Prabhupāda: That is going on everywhere, not only in the cinema, karmīs. So our duty is to take some service; *then they will be benefited by that. Kuruṣva tad mad*-arpaṇam. Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you do doesn't matter. The result, give Me." [break] French devotee (2): They go to cinema because they have no adventures in their life. So they go to cinema. If they become Kṛṣṇa conscious, so they don't need to go to cinema. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious is not so cheap. Have you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Don't take Kṛṣṇa consciousness so cheap that they will go to cinema and become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Brahmānanda: No, he says that if they become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then they will stop going to the cinema. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the test. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. This is the test. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra [SB 11.2.42]. Advancement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness means he's no more interested with anything material. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is a Bengali proverb, ami dugdha khaya eta mako khaya: "The children, they take milk, and adults, they smoke." So one is speaking that "I take milk and smoke also." Brahmānanda: He thinks he's all right. "I'm okay." Prabhupāda: Yes. "I go to temple and I do all nonsense also." Hare Kṛṣṇa. We shall go directly temple? Brahmānanda: Yes. (end) Morning Walk -- August 28, 1975, Våndävana Dhanañjaya: We will greet the Deities at seven o'clock this morning, so there will be no delay. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, in America, in nearly all temples, the Deities are greeted at 7 o'clock. [break] Prabhupāda: ...speak, why he is purchasing? They will cheat. Dhanañjaya: He speaks a little Hindi. This is Asita. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Asita. (man talking in Hindi in background) Prabhupāda: Go on. What is the trouble? See. [break] Dhanañjaya: They stop everyone so they can extract taxes from them. They want to stop every single person, even the buffalo carts. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (to life member:) There was no trouble. It's okay now. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Thank you. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a life member from Nellore. Member: Nellore, Andhra Pradesh. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He has come to live in our temple. Prabhupāda: So he has come? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Member: I am very fortunate that Swamiji has come from America. I was inquiring about you all these years. I wanted to come here in April also, when the temple was being opened. At that time I had some work; therefore I couldn't come. Prabhupāda: What you are doing there? Member: I am retired labor officer in the state government. Prabhupāda: Oh. So you can live here, retired life? Yes. You are welcome. Member: I'll be staying here for ten days. Prabhupāda: Why ten days? Live here for ten years. (laughter) Member: If you please, I have no objections. *Prabhupāda: No. We want many educated men to understand this philosophy and preach. People are... Whole world, they are in ignorance*-the value of life. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. They are accepting this body as self. The whole trouble is there. So-called scientist, philosopher-everyone is thinking, "I am this body," and therefore there is so much trouble. They do not know what he is and what is his goal of life, how life should be molded. No knowledge. Therefore vigorous preaching is required. Our Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that, that all people are suffering. There is little knowledge in India. So anyone who has taken his birth in India, he should make his life perfect by studying this Vedic literature and then spread the knowledge all over the world because they are in ignorance. Here also now they are ignorant. They do not know what is the value of life, thinking like cats and dogs. What is your idea about the value of life? Member: Unless it is very towards God, it is useless. Prabhupāda: Yes. Member: Constant thinking of Him, His lotus feet, it is the only way by which we can get the real benefit of getting this human life. Prabhupāda: Yes. And where is that education? Member: That is real education. Prabhupāda: That is... But where is that education? There is no such education all over the world. Member: Only great gurus like you can enlighten the whole world. Only very rarely such people come only for the benefit of the people... Prabhupāda: That's all right, but those who are leaders, those who are leading the people, they are not interested. They are misleading. Member: You can beg them (indistinct) everything nice with you. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Sometimes this side, sometimes that side. Near the head. (about fan?) Member: I not praising of Swamiji, I think no, so many saints are in India, so many great ṛṣis are there. Nobody were able to propagate or bring this consciousness among the people of the worlds as you did. It is a great credit to India. That is what I feel personally. Prabhupāda: Do you think like that? Member: Yes, I feel. In the heart of hearts I feel like that. I am very happy to see you and have your blessings. And I think that the whole world will be blessed or be benefited by your presence. I think we must take opportunity of utilizing your service and get benefit. That is what I feel. Prabhupāda: So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that every Indian should do like that. I am only one Indian. If I can do as, according to your estimate, so much, so if every Indian does like that. Member: Unless he has been directed by God. He must be ... Prabhupāda: No, God is directing. This is the direction of God. Member: Only through you they will get that. Only people like you can relate with... It is dormant. The soul is there, and it is in a dormant stage. Unless it is kindled, it cannot have light. People like you can kindle them. And it is really our fortune that we are having Swamiji with us. There was some ṛṣi. Even our Samanja Ācārya(?) or his guru, they were not able to carry this outside India. But you are able to, with all your... I think you are... Is it not said that you are an incarnation of God or you are deputy of God, is it? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Don't say like that. Member: You are deputy of God, and He is making you true. Swamiji will be staying here for another two months? Prabhupāda: Yes. I wish to. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Have you seen that land which has been given to us in Nellore? Member: Yes, it is very near to me. You see, in Nellore, one lady has donated about ninety acres of land. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: With a house. Member: With a house which will cost nearly four or five lakhs or even more. Very costly. And they also ... Prabhupāda: Which season is good? I shall go there. Member: Yes, sir. You are welcome. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When is a good time? When is the weather the best? Member: Best time is September, October. Of course, there will be little rain. In December generally it will be little chill, but not as chill as in the other parts. Prabhupāda: So what is the best season? Member: Best season, from August to September. That is the best season. And I wish our guruji to visit our temple, Lord of Samhis(?) and you must see. Prabhupāda: Where is that temple? Member: Lord Veṅkaṭeśvara temple. That is the richest temple in the whole world. Prabhupāda: Bālajī? Member: Bālajī. Prabhupāda: I have seen it. Member: Oh. When did you? Prabhupāda: I think when... Member: Last year or...? Prabhupāda: No, two years. A little more than one year. Hm? (everyone talking at once about rain) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's starting to rain, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So we shall return? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can be near the temple... Member: I think rain will not come. [break] Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is one house on that land, isn't there? Member: Yes, yes, one house on the land. And she wants to dedicate all of the property to the author of that books. That is the will. Prabhupāda: So we shall organize it very nicely. Member: And our Mahāṁśa Swami is taking very much interest. He is often coming to Nellore. (Hindi) Last month the land was registered and the registration took place. Brahmānanda: In the name of ISKCON? Member: ISKCON. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It's already done. Prabhupāda: So in September let us go there. Member: And in October you can see about Bālajī's festival, ten (seven?) days. Prabhupāda: Oh. It is near? Member: It is about eighty miles from Nellore. Prabhupāda: Rain is coming? Devotees: Yes. We've had a lot of rain this last year, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (Heavy wind on microphone) (Sound of heavy rain) [break] Prabhupāda: It was raining? That's it. [break] Prabhupāda: ...parikrama? Dhanañjaya: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That was to the old Yamunā trail. Prabhupāda: We can go? Dhanañjaya: Yes. British devotee (1): The Yamunā's only five minutes walk from Raman Reti now, Prabhupāda. It's very nice for swimming. [break] Prabhupāda: ...able to walk with us, why you have brought him? It will be strain for him. Brahmānanda: The other day he came on the walk, the first day. [break] Dhanañjaya: The sands of Raman Reti where Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma would enjoy Their pastimes. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Therefore we have established Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple. Dhanañjaya: The sands are very fine and soft here. Prabhupāda: Sands are always soft. [break] ...old house. [break] Dhanañjaya: ...been all jungle like this at one time. Prabhupāda: Hm? Gardens, not jungle. Dhanañjaya: Not jungle. Forest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vana means forest. What is this? Dhanañjaya: This is garden. *Prabhupāda: Acala*-vihāra Gosvāmī. [break] Dhanañjaya: ...and down here where they're growing about two acres of tulasī. They just grow tulasī plants for the temples, for Bankibehari and other temples. The fragrance is so nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...built. Nobody living. Only locked. Dhanañjaya: This is where the gardener keeps his tools. [break] ...in there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh, there. [break] Tired. [break] Now you can take him back. (Child crying) Dhanañjaya: Did the Yamunā river used to... Prabhupāda: I do not know. Dhanañjaya: ...flow in this part? *Prabhupāda: How this building could be constructed? [break] ...a strong*-built wall, and the tree has grown from there. Dhanañjaya: That means it must be very old wall, because now they are not building such strong walls. [break] Prabhupāda: Rādhāballabha. [break] Real reminiscence of Vṛndāvana. Brahmānanda: It's a real what? Prabhupāda: Reminiscence. Brahmānanda: In this area? [break] ...in the Kṛṣṇa book are like this. [break] Dhanañjaya: It's a colony of birds. Prabhupāda: Babui(?). They create such nest, hanging nest. It is very nice fiber, fabricated. They know the art, simply by beaks. They have no hands. They want... They work only with the beaks, and you see the workmanship. Is our men going? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Because the Yamunā is just close. Akṣayānanda: Very close down that way. [break] Dhanañjaya: Very fertile land. [break] ...used for mooring boats. Perhaps it was used for mooring boats when the river was there. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is said that Yamunā was navigable river. Hm? Brahmānanda: I was just wondering how they were mooring boats to this thing. Prabhupāda: It is well. Devotee (2): There's a frog that lives down there. Prabhupāda: I think we shall return. I am getting tired. But how strongly built it is. You see? What was the mortar? Mortar, it is called? That is Madana Mohana temple. [break] ...also good datuna.(?) They use. Dhanañjaya: What do they use? Prabhupāda: Datuna.(?) Dhanañjaya: For cleaning teeth? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is good... For those who are soft gum, it is good medicine. Devotee (2): Nim leaves? Dhanañjaya: No, the sticks, twigs. [break] Brahmānanda: ...auspicious to see a calf drinking milk? Prabhupāda: Yes. But there is no milk. (laughter) [break] Somebody should give me daily one fresh nim stem. Ask somebody. [break] Everything you have to do? Dhanañjaya: I can learn from Brahmānanda Mahārāja. I can learn from Brahmānanda how to break it and make it ready. Brahmānanda: No, no. Prabhupāda will arrange that. You just bring the branch. Dhanañjaya: All right. Prabhupāda: There are so many nim trees. Harikeśa: You were telling us last year about nim leaves being very good for the stomach. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Harikeśa: Would you like some? We can bring you some nim leaves? Prabhupāda: Yes, little paste. I can take. Harikeśa: Mash it in like a nim chutney. Dhanañjaya: Mortar and pestle. Harikeśa: Put anything else in it? Prabhupāda: No. A small pill. It increases appetite. Which way? This way? Harikeśa: This way. [break] Prabhupāda: ...know how to make kichri? Harikeśa: Yes. I made for you in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Ah. So do it today. Kichri and eggplant, fried, and some vegetables. That's all. I'll take between one, half past one. So begin about... *Harikeśa: Twelve*-thirty? Prabhupāda: Yes. I shall go this way or that way? Whose, this garden? Where is our temple? Dhanañjaya: Our temple is behind the trees. [break] Two trees in one. One tree is growing out of the other tree. Prabhupāda: Oh. Why they have become two? Not from sentiment, but scientific? Dhanañjaya: The seed must have been deposited in the bark and then taken root. Prabhupāda: Because they are different seed, different tree. Brahmānanda: Individual. Prabhupāda: Huh? Individual. And the specific individuality is there in the seed. Even if you grow together they will come differently. Brahmānanda: Same earth is there, same water, everything same. But the seed is different. Prabhupāda: But they will say "by chance." Chance. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: There is also that phenomenon, they say, "identical twins." When two brothers are born together they say "identical twins." Dhanañjaya: Why does that happen, if there are two brothers who are identically looking the same in features? Prabhupāda: That is not difficult. In the same tree, the same semen. Dhanañjaya: Because the living entity had the same desire? Two living entities having the same desire for the same body? Prabhupāda: Hm. (Hindi) They are going to take water from Yamunā or some from well? Dhanañjaya: From a well. There's just a well around the corner. Prabhupāda: Oh. They are all going to Yamunā. [break] Dhanañjaya: That lady was from Manipur. Harikeśa: Viśvambhara lives here. [break] Prabhupāda: ...can... Very nice blackboard. Brahmānanda: Hut! Hut! Prabhupāda: No, just... Why it is thrown away? Viśāla: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- August 29, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...sometimes they do not. [break] Brahmānanda: ...cows are all becoming devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is preaching. (to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...not like that. On the head. The Sarasvatī's mandir will be... For the last three years I am seeing. [break]...Maṭha commander. Hm? Brahmānanda: Who is the temple commander? Akṣayānanda: Hari-śauri. His name is Hari-śauri. Prabhupāda: He is sleeping? He does not see? Akṣayānanda: Yes. I am considering to become the temple commander myself, because it's not the first time this has happened. So many things have gone wrong. Too many. So I think I will do it myself. Prabhupāda: Then? You will be everything. Akṣayānanda: Because I cannot find anyone more suitable, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: And he is the suitable man. [break] (Hindi) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Tell him that we had heard he had come and you are free now so he can... Tell him what time. Prabhupāda: Hm? He went there? Akṣayānanda: Yes, yesterday. No. Saccidānanda went. [break] ...did not know whether he could come or not. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...celebration there. The education minister is also coming. He is going to be the chief guest. So we are going to have this time two big ministers coming to our Janmāṣṭamī paṇḍal. Dhanañjaya: Should we hold an abhiṣekha ceremony for Janmāṣṭamī? Prabhupāda: Yes. You know what is abhiṣeka ceremony? Dhanañjaya: Bathing ceremony. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: Should we bathe only the small Kṛṣṇa Deity? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...bathe. Brahmānanda: How will you bathe? Dhanañjaya: Well, the ceremony would begin about ten in the evening, and we would bathe with water, ghee, honey, yogurt. Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation with someone) [break] We shall go. How many? Four? Five? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Four, five. Should we have small kīrtana there also? Brahmānanda: If we have kīrtana, we shall have to bring more men. Prabhupāda: As they will send car. Brahmānanda: They've sent, as far as I know, one car. So besides yourself, then three others could go. Maybe four. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But it's so near that we can... [break] Jayapatāka is taking quotes over there, and he'll... [break] Prabhupāda: Offset you can take. It will be very cheap. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, true. And also then next time we want to reprint it, we can just reprint. It doesn't have to be composed again. [break] Prabhupāda: You give me simply hot milk with miṣṭi. [break] They're going to foreign country, but once they go they become disappointed and not second time. Brahmānanda: Someone has gone? Prabhupāda: So many. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even this man has gone to Hong Kong. Brahmānanda: Really? Prabhupāda: They generally go to this Middle East it is called? No? Brahmānanda: Far East. Prabhupāda: Far East, yes. Because there are many Indians. Dhanañjaya: They also go to London. Prabhupāda: No, not London. In London the kathā vāca, they go, *Rāmāyaṇa* of Tulsi das. Akṣayānanda: Tulsi das teaching bona fide, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: He is not pure Vaiṣṇava. He has got Māyāvādī touch. Brahmānanda: [break] ...Swami from Bombay, his program is to go all around the world and to install the *Vedas* in Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: That he tried, and he failed. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ninety*-four-year-old swami. Prabhupāda: Gaṅgeśvarānanda. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Gaṅgeśvara. I've heard he likes us very much. Girirāja told me in Bombay that he likes us. Prabhupāda: He is very favorable to our movement. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a Māyāvādī, but he seems to have a lot of followers amongst the Indians. Brahmānanda: Damodar Chanrai follows him. Prabhupāda: Hm? Damodar? Brahmānanda: Damodar Chanrai from Nigeria. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He was in Nigeria recently. Brahmānanda: He follows him. Passerby: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that if somebody remembers Kṛṣṇa by seeing somebody, that somebody is Vaiṣṇava. He remembers immediately Kṛṣṇa. Brahmānanda: That's a test. Prabhupāda: That is the test. Akṣayānanda: [break] ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was handed some leaflets, Cinmayananda Swami, and the printed advertisement on the leaflet wanted "Young men with graduation degree to come to our institute in Bombay. They will be trained up in Sanskrit." Prabhupāda: Hm? Akṣayānanda: "To be trained in Sanskrit and philosophy. Then they will be selected by Cinmayananda for preaching all over the world. And if they qualify, then all their expenses and food and clothing will be supplied by the Cinmayananda Mission." Advertisement. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This appeared in Times of India, it's only in Bombay. It also appeared in Times of India in (indistinct). It was an ad just like a professional company's ad. Prabhupāda: Nobody will be attracted. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are trying to attract people that they'll get a chance to go abroad. Prabhupāda: That may be allurement. Brahmānanda: Actually by placing such an ad, then all the wealthy people read the ad in the newspaper, and they think, "Oh, they are doing such nice work." So then they go and collect, and they say, "Oh, you see? We are placing the ads." So on the basis of the ad alone. Akṣayānanda: That means there is no work. Prabhupāda: But no educated man, at least in India, is interested any more with philosophy and preaching. No Indian. (Aside) Jaya. [break] Akṣayānanda: ...preach more, then that would help? Because he was previously a principal of a school. Prabhupāda: No, how he is preaching? Have you heard? No, you cannot understand in Hindi. Akṣayānanda: Hindi. Prabhupāda: Anyone? Dhanañjaya: We've been told he preaches nicely. Prabhupāda: I have told him that "You simply read my books and reproduce it. That's all. That will be preaching." Akṣayānanda: At least when he speaks to me in English, it's always very nice. Brahmānanda: He can memorize Prabhupāda's books and then just speak it. *Prabhupāda: That is preaching. Our process is anuśṛṇuyāt. We hear from the superior and reproduce it. That is śravaṇaṁ*-kīrtanam. Then perfect. If I add something, my own imagination, then it will spoil. No addition-alteration; *as it is. As it is you hear from your spiritual master, reproduce. That's all. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. This 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa is coming by paramparā, so you reproduce. That's all. Even a child can reproduce what he has heard from his father. It is not at all difficult. [break] ...cheap rate. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What we can also do is... I think we should have some publication for one rupee twenty*-five paisa. We can just print a small ten-page or ten or fifteen-page. Prabhupāda: What you'll explain in ten or fifteen page? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise all these books, they cost us about 1.40 for printing. Brahmānanda: That Hanuman Prasad Poddar, he was producing big books at cheap rates. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They were all subsidized by Rama..., all his books. And he had no profit. Harikeśa: Also the paper is given free by Samani. *Prabhupāda: No... Yes. They were receiving contribution. Besides that, he possessed agency of Titagara paper mill. So mill rate*-immediately 33% less. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And I heard all his books were heavily subsidized by Dalmia. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dalmia and many big, big Marwaris. Harikeśa: Maybe they can produce your Hindi lectures in pamphlets. Prabhupāda: So if... You can make it cheaper. Instead of three rupees, you can make it two rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like we can have four or five of your lectures for one small book for one rupees, fifty paisa, or one rupee and... If somebody can't afford two rupees... At the present moment we are selling your Back to Godhead for two rupees. [break] Prabhupāda: ...educated, he appreciate it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants to become your disciple. Akṣayānanda: What if the Hindi Back to Godhead was in newspaper form? Would that be lowering the standard? Brahmānanda: Then they'd throw it away. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You can't have a color picture then. Prabhupāda: Hm? Akṣayānanda: If it was in newspaper form, that would be lowering the standard too much, the Hindi Back to Godhead. Then they will throw it away? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like we have those... *Prabhupāda: No. We must have quality. Our Godbrothers, they publish tenth*-quality papers. Nobody... Nobody cares. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Madras we are printing a big Tamil *Īśopaniṣad*, and one Sindi man, he has donated eight thousand towards the cost. The total cost is eleven thousand, and he has donated about eight thousand. If we can get this... One way we can reduce our cost is by getting advertisements. Prabhupāda: No, no. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But that you wish not to do. You'd rather... Brahmānanda: Just like this other man has agreed to subsidize the Arabic book? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He will pay for the whole thing, not just subsidize. Brahmānanda: So, so many can be gotten in this way. If they see the books are coming, then they will want to... [break] Prabhupāda: ...man is convinced, then our printing of books shall be success. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu [Bg. 7.3]. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have thousands of people convinced. [break] *Prabhupāda: Ācāryopāsanam. In the Bhagavad*-gītā: "One should worship ācārya." This is the beginning of spiritual life. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam [Bg. 13.8]. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. These are the injunction. Without taking shelter of ācārya, nobody can understand anything. [break]...wants prasāda, it is not given? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Given. Prabhupāda: Not given. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...women's,(?) they try and harass us, they try and cheat us. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Nirnayika just wanted to use their scale, and they would try and cheat him. They would ask him for money just to let us use their scale to weigh the vegetables we buy. So I intervened one day, and then he got so angry that he abused Kṛṣṇa also. These are such big demons, these people. They live in Vṛndāvana but... Prabhupāda: So give them prasāda; they will be all right. Yes. Give them prasāda. Harikeśa: The perfect solution. Brahmānanda: We were also demons before we took prasāda. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Jaya. Our preaching means to turn demons into devotees. That is our preaching. If you keep them demon, then your preaching is lacking. Give them prasādam today and tell them, "Whenever you come, take prasāda." (end) Morning Walk -- September 1, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: They make analysis-"This is good; this is bad." The whole thing is bad; they do not understand. Dvaite bhadrābhadra sakale samana, ei bhala ei manda saba manodharma. A mental concoction we analyze-"This is good." And because the whole population is such rascal, therefore we see whole world they are creating government, they are making this advancement, taking... Everything is spoiled. That they do not understand, that "We have tried so far, scientifically and this way and that way. Why there are so many things disturbing and miserable?" The whole policy is to give you trouble. That is the material nature. You must be always in trouble. Adhyātmika adhibhautika. "No." They will say, "No, this trouble is better than that trouble." (laughter) This is the... This trouble is better than that trouble. Hare Kṛṣṇa. This Dr. Ghosh, he said... When he was student in Calcutta he was doctor of tropical medicine. So one English doctor was his professor, Colonel Maylow(?). So he was lecturing and... Now the friends have come to greet. He said that "In our country 75%, at least, students are infected with syphilis." Brahmānanda: Infected to? *Prabhupāda: Syphilis, yes. So in India the syphilis is very horrible disease. So he exclaimed, "Oh, it is horrible." The doctor, that Colonel Maylow(?), he was astonished: "Why you say it is horrible? In your country they suffer, 90%, from malaria. That's not horrible?" So the example is that when you are suffering for a doctor, either you are suffering from malaria or from syphilis, we are suffering from disease. Why you say "This disease is horrible than that disease"? Actually this is the fact. Why should you discriminate? So he chastised him that "As a medical man, you cannot say this disease is more dangerous than that. Every disease is dangerous." Actually you should take that. Suffering, three kinds of suffering*-adhyātmika, adhibhautika... The suffering is there. If you say adhyātmika suffering is better than adhibhautika suffering, that is foolishness. Atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ. Spiritual life means to end all kinds of suffering. That is spiritual life. Not that I get free myself from this kind of suffering and I accept that kind of suffering. This is not good conclusion. Atyantika-duḥkha. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. This place is duḥkhālayam, full of miseries. And Kṛṣṇa is canvassing, "Why you are suffering? Come to Me." This mercantile community, they are earning money for mitigating suffering, but for earning money they are accepting any means. In future he is creating field of another suffering. That he does not know. He thinks, "Now, if I get money somehow or other, my present sufferings will be mitigated." But he does not know that he is creating another field of suffering. Brahmānanda: In the next life. Prabhupāda: Next life or this life. Suppose you are earning money in the black market. As soon as you will be arrested, you will be pun... Just like so many people are put into jail. Why they are put into jail? They have done something, big, big leaders. Brahmānanda: In the past. They have done something in the past and now they are suffering. Prabhupāda: "In the past" means in this life. So as soon as you do something wrong, you must suffer, either by government's laws or by nature's law. Brahmānanda: They're thinking that "If I earn much money now, then later on in my life, everything will be very comfortable." Prabhupāda: That's all right, but this is the fact. If you earn money by black market and if you are arrested, then your all comfort will be finished. Aksayananda: In the Kṛṣṇa book there is one king... Prabhupāda: Yes. Aksayananda: He says, "I worked so hard for enjoyment, but I have no time to enjoy." Prabhupāda: (chuckles) This is going on. They do not understand that this world is meant for suffering. We have discussed little in that topic with Śyāmasundara. Just like they invented the communistic idea. Does it mean the communists are not suffering? They are suffering more. They have no liberty. They have lost their liberty, the whole people. They are so much pressed by the government that there is no liberty at all. The younger generation, they cannot go out, so much suffering. I may live even in a big house, but if you say, "You cannot go out. Then you'll be punished," that idea will be suffering-"Oh, I cannot go out." Brahmānanda: We have one devotee. He escaped from Communist Hungary, and he was telling me all the story, how on the borders how much they keep the people from trying to escape. Even in Berlin, in Germany... Prabhupāda: They shoot. Brahmānanda: They have a system, automatic shooting, that if you cross a certain line, they have these rays of light, and if you break the ray of light, then automatically all machine guns start firing in the whole area. It's all done... Prabhupāda: This is their scientific advancement. Brahmānanda: They've made such a nice place that they're afraid the people will escape from it. Prabhupāda: And they are thinking, "This system is for happiness." Brahmānanda: If it's for happiness, then why prevent people from leaving? *Prabhupāda: "Why?"*-that you are asking. They think it is happiness. That is called māyā. It is not happiness; still, if somebody is thinking happiness, that is called māyā. Dhanañjaya: But even if they cross the line successfully, they'll only suffer misery on the other side too. Prabhupāda: Hm? Brahmānanda: Yes. This is another point. Dhanañjaya: They'll only suffer another kind of misery. Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. Dhanañjaya: Capitalist misery. Brahmānanda: Some boys, they escaped from one country, I think Rumania. And they came to our temple. They had heard about our movement, so they came to our temple. They stayed for a little while, but then they were wanting to leave. So they left, and immediately they were apprehended by the authorities in... I think it was in Sweden. And now they are put into camps, they cannot leave, they have to be processed, and practically they are again in jail. They have no freedom. They cannot get a job. They have no passport. It will take them years to get all the papers in order. They have to be investigated to see that they are not spies. So again they are still in the miserable condition. *Prabhupāda: So miserable condition... That is our conclusion, that either you remain this side or that side, it is miserable. By mental concoction you think that "This is better than that." Therefore Kṛṣṇa says frankly, sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. That is only shelter. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam nāpnuvanti [Bg. 8.15]. [break] ...take Kṛṣṇa's words as it is. Everything is there. He said, "This material world is duḥkhālayam; it is the place of suffering." Industrialist, businessman, anyone, even ordinary man, actually everyone is suffering, but everyone is thinking, "I am happy." [break] Brahmānanda: ...because there is some sex pleasure, that makes it tolerable. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the, what is called, topmost ignorance, topmost ignorance, that "This is happiness." So the materialistic person means only for that happiness they are suffering so much, this way. They agree, "Yes." Just like Dr., er, Bon Mahārāja was speaking that they are talking freely? Brahmānanda: Oh, about homosexuality. Prabhupāda: "Oh, yes. What is the wrong? It is pleasure." They take it as pleasure. Brahmānanda: The priests. They're in the theological seminary, and they are priests, and they are saying that "It is pleasurable, so why not do it?" *Prabhupāda: And what is the pleasure? Stool*-passing and urine-passing points are joined together, and it is pleasure. Just see their standard of pleasure. Just like the pigs. With pleasure, they eat stool. So they think it is pleasure. Standard of pleasure has gone down so low. This is Kali-yuga. [break] ...advanced. He has disciple, guru, but he knows that he is suffering whole life for this institution. Still he'll not give it up. Brahmānanda: He still has hope against hope. Prabhupāda: Yes. He thinks that "I shall die peacefully if I expand the laboratory house, that I have given something to Vṛndāvana." Did he not say like that? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: As if Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him to give this institution to Vṛndāvana. Such a foolish person. Brahmānanda: Yet he also admits that any boys who have intelligence, who are good students, they will go to Mathurā and Agra and other places for education. Here only the village boys come. Prabhupāda: (to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Brahmānanda: Therefore he has very few students. He has very few students. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Brahmānanda: Now he is wearing kuntī beads. Prabhupāda: Oh. Because he was criticized by our students in U.S.A. (sound of bell) See? The bell is ringing nice. There was no such ringing in this quarter. [break] ...fixed up so that thieves may not take it away? Not so securely. Dhanañjaya: Well, they have... I'll make sure it is done today. Prabhupāda: Oh. When I say? That means no brain. I am asking without seeing, and you are seeing for the last one week. You do not know it, that what is secure, what is not secure. That is the defect. Here thieves are very expert. Dhanañjaya: But the chokidar is there at the front, guarding all night, and the bell is situated very high inside the dome. Prabhupāda: Still should be secure. [break] ...that in the temple these bells are stolen even it is secure. Therefore we shall be very careful. *Dhanañjaya: But there are always devotees, twenty*-four hours. *Prabhupāda: (to passerby:) Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. But our devotees, the first*-class devotee, (chuckles) he is not very intelligent. He does not know what is secure, what is not secure. [break] ...character that we are not very much concerned, but we have to live in a world which is very, very cunning. It is not yet half past six. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- September 3, 1975, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: As soon as you make "Hindu religion," "Muslim religion," "Christian religion," immediately it is not religion, immediately. Because Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Why does He say, sarva-dharmān parityajya? (Aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Because that is not religion. The so-called religions which are going on, they are not religion. That we do not say at the present moment because you are not so strong. But we have to say that. There is no religion. All cheating. Why Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]? Why? Akṣayānanda: Because there is no other religion. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no religion. Akṣayānanda: That is actual religion, surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. Everything else is cheating. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cheating others, cheating himself. Just like this animal sacrifice. The man who is sacrificing, he is cheating himself, and he is cheating others also. [break] ...cheating, envious. Just like a man who is killing another man. So he is envious to himself as well as the man whom he is killing. Both. I am killing somebody, he is being killed. I am envious. And I forget that I'll be killed. Then I am envious to me also. *Brahmānanda: Yeah. Even one's own self*-interest he is not taking care of. Prabhupāda: This is the position. Even it is forbidden... In the Christian religion it is forbidden: "Thou shall not kill." And they are killing. That means envious of the animal, and he is envious of himself also. They are now being killed in the womb of the mother. Why the child is now being killed within the womb of the mother? Hm? Akṣayānanda: Because they are envious. They are envious. Prabhupāda: So Upendra has not come? Brahmānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Brahmānanda: He said he had to take a laxative last night. Prabhupāda: Some way or other, he avoids. Eh? [break] ...therefore forbidden to make one steady in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if one does not follow this thing, then his mind, he cannot control. It is not possible. Unless one can control the mind and the senses, he cannot be steady. That is māyā's trick, to become guided by the mind. That is māyā's trick. [break] Trivikrama: ...sixteen rounds. Prabhupāda: Yes. So let him go to hell. What can be done? [break] So his friend said, "Oh, you are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my father is drinking." "Oh, he will go to hell." "My mother is also drinking." "Oh, she will go." Then brother, sister... "Then where is hell? We are going all there. If we can live together, where is hell? Let us go to hell. Doesn't matter." So your argument is that. "Because everyone is being cheated, then where is fault? I have been cheated. That's all. It is not hell. It is heaven." (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Akṣayānanda: It's like saying everything is one. Prabhupāda: No. That cannot be. You are one cheated and he is one cheater. How they can be one? (laughter) *Dhanañjaya: [break] ...isn't self*-sufficiency... *Prabhupāda: Self*-suff... There is no self-sufficiency. Self-insufficiency. Always remember that. Unless you become perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no self-sufficiency. All self-insufficiency. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] So you give me a description, what he is doing. [break] ...thinking, "I am independent," but he is kicked by his mind every moment. This is his independence-"Go there. Come here. Do this. Do that." The mind is dictating, and he is thinking, "I am independent." This is the position of conditioned soul. Therefore he is called conditioned. He is conditioned by the mind, and he is thinking "independent." Mūḍha. Therefore mūḍha. Tri-guṇamayair bhāvaiḥ mohitaḥ. He is illusioned by the three modes of material nature, and he does not know Kṛṣṇa, and he is thinking "independent." Trivikrama: The mind is cheating us. Prabhupāda: Certainly he'll cheat. If you cannot control, it will cheat. Mind is the friend, and mind is the enemy. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious fully, then mind is friend. And if you do not become Kṛṣṇa conscious, mind is enemy. māyā is also. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then she is Rādhārāṇī. And if he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, she is Durga. Dhanañjaya: So all these cheaters are māyā's agents. Prabhupāda: No, no, they are agent of Kṛṣṇa. (to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. But because you want to cheat Kṛṣṇa, therefore they are cheating you. They are not your servant. Mama māyā: "My servant." Just like the police. Police is punishing you not on their own account. Because you are disobedient, you must be punished. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī [Bg. 7.14]. Brahmānanda: The moment we stop cheating Kṛṣṇa, then we can... Prabhupāda: Then, immediately, he becomes friend. This is the way, going on. The whole arrangement is like that. So long we shall not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, we have to suffer so many ways, different species of life, different condition, different planets. This is going on. [break] ...indirectly forcing that "You be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise you'll be punished." Why police is so unkind? Because the indirect way is that "You become lawful; otherwise you'll continue to be suffering by us." So intelligent person thinks of it, and he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. And those who are rascals, fools, bewildered, they think, "We shall adjust it by manufacturing every year new type of motorcars." Although there is accident... The increase of motorcar means increasing the death rate of public. Huh? And still they'll do that. It is becoming problem in cities in Europe and America. All roads and streets are always congested. They cannot drive even at ten miles speed. Still, they are increasing. Still, they are increasing motorcar. Brahmānanda: They are passing laws now that you're not allowed to drive your car in the center of the cities. Prabhupāda: Just see. They are keeping two miles away the car and coming to the office. Brahmānanda: They make them come by trains and buses. Even though they have a car, they cannot use. Guṇārṇava: And they pack all the cars on top of the roofs of the buildings, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Guṇārṇava: They're using all the roofs of the buildings as car parks to park the cars. Trivikrama: And they are very much proud of making so many cars. Just like we were in Detroit. Remember, you were there. They had a big sign, "Seven million cars produced this year." Brahmānanda: Yeah. They have a board with numbers, and each time a car is produced, it is put on the board. And it's a big board displayed in the city. (end) Morning Walk -- September 4, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...get money, they will spend it for spoiling himself. Nayanābhirāma: So I was just wondering if it wouldn't be better if we gave them food and clothing instead of paying them. *Prabhupāda: But they will not work. [break] ...gradually. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...Who does not deviate from the instruction of the Lord, he is Aryan. All others, non*-Aryan. The Aryans will take the words of God as it is, without any deviation. That is Aryan. An Aryan means advanced, advanced in knowledge, and one who is advanced in knowledge, he is advanced civilized. Rascal fools, how they can be civilized? Everyone is claiming "Aryan," but he does not know what is the business of Aryans. Simply by some bodily feature... The same ignorance-"I am this body." So by the bodily features they settle up: "This is from Aryan family; *this is from non*-Aryan family." That is good. That is external. Real Aryan means one who is advanced in knowledge and goes by the order of Kṛṣṇa, or God. (aside:) Jaya. Brahmānanda: Adolf Hitler adopted the idea of Aryan, but his criteria for Aryan was one who had blond hair and blue eyes. *Prabhupāda: That is bodily. (chuckles) That is another foolishness. Just like we have dress. So this dress of sannyāsī is not all. I must be real sannyāsī in knowledge, in education, in behavior, not that... Hitler studies by the dress. That is the foolishness. It is not by the dress, but by the quality. Dress is also required. As I am sannyāsī, I cannot dress otherwise. That is also essential. But if one judges, "Here is a sannyāsī," then he'll misled. That is being done. People are being exploited in the dress of a sannyāsī, although actually he is not sannyāsa. That is also stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. "A sannyāsī or a brāhmaṇa will be accepted by the outward feature." If somebody has got a thread only, two paisa worth, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. And when one takes a daṇḍa, he becomes a sannyāsī. This will be the identification in the Kali-yuga. Brahmānanda: So the Ramakrishna philosophy... Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna philosophy is nonsense. Brahmānanda: I know. (laughter) They say it doesn't matter what kind of dress you wear. Prabhupāda: But "They say..." They are rascals. They can say anything. Chagale ki na khaya pagāle ki na bale: "A madman, what does he not say, and a goat, what does he not eat?" (laughter) Brahmānanda: That's their philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to take philosophy from the ācāryas. Ācāryopāsanam. They are not ācāryas, neither they follow the ācāryas. They do not follow any ācāryas, either Śaṅkarācārya or Madhvācārya or Rāmānujācārya. They have their own philosophy. Ācārya, the Ramakrishna, he used to worship Goddess Kali, but even they do not do that. Eh? Brahmānanda: No. They don't even have deity worship even to Goddess Kali. They are so advanced... Prabhupāda: Yes. So where they stand? They have no platform. Guṇārṇava: What do they do, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I do not know. Brahmānanda: They have one candle. Guṇārṇava: Oh, yes. I went to that, one candle, once. They were just playing... Prabhupāda: Then why they have established Ramakrishna's mūrti? If they worship candle, then why they install Ramakrishna? That is the flaw. They have no standard of knowledge. Guṇārṇava: Ānanda Prabhu was mentioning that he was speaking to one of the sannyāsīs of the Ramakrishna mission, and they were very concerned because a lot of their disciples were leaving the mission and joining our society. They were very concerned. Their society is not at all expanding. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was begun long ago. For their hospital, formerly... (bell ringing) Viśāla (in distance): All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Retired medical practitioners, they used to join. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. But nobody is joining now. What is this? Viśāla: Tad viddhi praṇipātena... [Bg. 4.34]. (etc.) (end) Morning Walk -- September 6, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Brahmācarya. Brahmācarya means completely cessation from sex life. This is brahmācarya. Tapasya begins, austerity. This is the greatest austerity, to cease sex. Tapasa brahmācarya. Our Vedic civilization, the boys are trained how to become brahmacārī from the very beginning of life. Indian: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Ha. [break] ... putrakā yena śuddhyet sattva. Our existentional position should be purified. How? Tapo, by tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattva [SB 5.5.1]. "And we are enjoying life. Why we should undergo tapasya?" And you are enjoying, but you are not enjoying; *you are suffering. Even if you think you are enjoying, there are so many sufferings. That the foolish people, they do not know. Just like a healthy man, he thinks, "I am enjoying," but he does not see that even he is now healthy, he will be an old man, he will be attacked with disease, he will die, and still he thinks, "I am healthy." Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. Therefore the intelligent man will see that "Where is my enjoyment if I am going to die? I don't want to die, but I am going to die." That is sure, as sure as anything. And still the rascal will think that "I am happy." He will become old man, he will be attacked with disease, and still he is thinking that he is happy. Apart from this, there are so many other sufferings, but he thinks that he is happy. And that happiness is centered around sex. That's all. Yan maithunadi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. Their only happiness is sex. Therefore in the Western countries they are simply trying to increase the sex enjoyment. That's all. Is it not? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: The whole civilization is based on how to enjoy sex very nicely. This is their basic principle of civilization. *Brahmānanda: Always on the best*-seller charts of the books there is always some book about how to enjoy sex. Prabhupāda: Just see. There are books here also, Kāma-śāstra. So sex enjoyment also you cannot enjoy unlimitedly. Then you will become impotent. Then you will have to call your wife as "mother," as some saintly person did. He was indulging in sex in his young age, and when he was married he saw himself impotent, and therefore he invented some way that "I have realized Brahman. I can call my wife also 'mother.' " And he became famous-"Oh, he is so advanced. He has learned how to..." But in the history we will not find this. Even Vyāsadeva had his wife, but he never said his wife, "mother." Brahmānanda: Actually you're supposed to see other women as mother. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: But not one's own wife. *Prabhupāda: No. Para*-dāreṣu. Mātravat para-dareṣu. That is the injunction of the śās... Other's wife. Not that "Oh, my wife is also my mother." Just see. This lunacy is going on, and this lunatic man is taken as incarnation of God. This is going on. This homosex propaganda is another side of impotency. So that is natural. If you enjoy too much, then you become impotent. Brahmānanda: They are trying to make that more and more accepted in America, homosex. Prabhupāda: Yes. The churches accept. It is already law. Nitāi: This women's liberation movement, the leaders are also homosexual. They're lesbians. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Just see. Hare Kṛṣṇa. The whole world is on the verge of ruination. Kali*-yuga. [break] Brahmānanda: ...become ruined. The world is on the verge of ruination, but it doesn't become ruined; so therefore they think, "Oh, it doesn't matter. We can go on." Prabhupāda: They do not know what is the meaning of ruination. [break] ...so many problems. Still it is not on the verge of ruination? Brahmānanda: It's on the verge. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But why you are very much disturbed with so many problems? Dhanañjaya : They always take the brighter side. Prabhupāda: No. They are discussing, "There will be no more petrol. There will be no more this, no more that." Brahmānanda: So they are thinking, "Well, then we'll get the sun power. Then we'll get this and we'll get that." *Prabhupāda: Well, that is the problem. It is not that "Theoretically here is a problem. I will solve it like this. I'll..." That is not solution of problem. Problem is there. When you actually make solution, then... This is madness, theorizing, "We shall solve the problem like this." They are wasting public money in so many ways. [break] They do not know what is real problem. The real problem is presented by Kṛṣṇa: janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. That they do not care, although they do not want it. That's a fact. It is a problem because they do not want it. But they do not take it as serious problem. This is foolishness. Brahmānanda: President Ford, he was almost killed. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? What about? Brahmānanda: Some woman... He was mingling in the crowd for the election, and some woman came up to him. She was two feet away from him, and she took out of her purse a loaded pistol, and she was to go like this, and then she was... Prabhupāda: Captured. Brahmānanda: Yes. Nayanābhirāma: He was going to shake her hand. Prabhupāda: Just see. Brahmānanda: So the president said, "Oh, this is simply a distraction." He was trying to say it wasn't important. Prabhupāda: What was the cause? Brahmānanda: She is a member of a group, a fanatical group in California. I don't know what... The Manson group? Charles Manson? Who is that group? This man killed about six people. Prabhupāda: Prominent. Brahmānanda: And I think this man has many wives. He has about two dozen wives. These are all his wives. He's in jail now. Life sentence. [break] Prabhupāda: There is no problem. Brahmānanda: Yes. He was saying, "Oh, it's just a distraction." [break] Prabhupāda: ...the President's life is not safe, and there is no problem. What to speak of others. Dhanañjaya: An intelligent man will go completely insane because he can't solve the problems... Prabhupāda: The solution is there. Dhanañjaya: ...without referring to the Vedic philosophy. Prabhupāda: The solution is there. Take it. Take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dhanañjaya: They're so much implicated by sex life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gradually they'll become ... understand that this is not good. Therefore gṛhastha āśrama is allowed under rules and regulation. The purpose is to restrict sex life. Brahmānanda: The wife of the President, she recently said that sex life before marriage is good because it will reduce the divorce rate. Prabhupāda: Yes. If everyone is prostitute then where is the question of divorce? (laughter) Nitāi: There's also no question of marriage. Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is going on. (end) Morning Walk -- September 9, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Do you know this? [break] ...go somewhere, better go, at least four men; and when you read some knowledge, at least two men; but when you eat, one man. Don't bring four men and two men. Then he will be hungry; *you will be hungry. (laughter) So for advancement of knowledge, two men at least required, discussion*-not that I am reading and sleeping also. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Just before coming here we were in Laguṇa Beach, and Guru*-kṛpa Mahārāja, Yaśodānandana Mahārāja, Paramahaṁsa Mahārāja, Viṣṇujana Mahārāja and myself, we got your new books, Caitanya-caritāmṛta. So we were reading constantly from early in the morning. We found it was very enlivening, the fact that we were reading amongst a number of devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is called iṣṭagoṣṭhī, or discussion. Discussion does not take place alone. There must be at least two. Indian man (1): Dvabhyanaṁ pathanaṁ pathī. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Dvabhyaṁ patanam. (Hindi) ...instruction... (Hindi) Either you speak in Bengali or in Sanskrit. [break] Then that is an asset. One day they will come to help us. It is called ajñāta-sukṛtī, devotional advancement without knowledge. Even... [break] ...have appreciated. In Hyderabad, these Māyāvādī sannyāsīs were challenged by the people, that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has gone to foreign countries, and he established so many Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple. What did you do? If you say that you disagree with Bhaktivedanta Swami*-you worship demigods-so how many demigods' temple you have established?" They challenge like that. "If you say that you are worshiper of Lord Śiva, why don't you go and establish a Śiva temple? You are sitting idly here." Indian man (2): And Śiva always worshiped Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another thing. They, "If you believe that Lord Śiva is the Supreme, why don't you go and establish? Why you are sitting here and declaring jagad*-guru?" Their purpose was that "Either you worship Śiva or Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter, but if you would have done something that would have spread the Hindu conception of... But you are not doing there anything. Why do you call yourself jagad-guru?" (Hindi) "A jackal is the king in the forest." And they do not go outside. Even Gaṅgeśvarānanda went; he came back disappointed. What they will do? Cinmayananda goes so many times. What does he do? (Hindi) [break] He is so big. What does he have? What he has done? This thing going on. Phalena paricīyate. One has to be studied by the result, not by talking. It is not that Caitanya Mahāprabhu entrusted the subject of preaching only unto me. Why they do not go, the gosvāmīs, swamis, big, big sannyāsīs, and stalwart? Why they are rotting within this area? Indian man (2): They know only how to criticize for nothing. Prabhupāda: No, what is the meaning of that criticize? First of all you come to the stage. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Enviousness. Prabhupāda: Now, Bon Mahārāja, our Godbrother, went. What did he bring? He brought some HMD. HMD. You know HMD? You do not know? Indian man (3): Hindustan Machine Tools. Indian man (2): When Bon Mahārāja came I asked him many things, many questions. He was praising, and he said that more than 50% people are liking our organization in U.S.A. Only due to that, their children got saved from intoxication. And they are happy that their lives are also... That's what he told me. I told him, "What is your impression about our organization?" Then he told me everything. He also told me that one or two places (indistinct) [break] Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...official said, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." When we went to... *Prabhupāda: They have been forced to forget Hare Kṛṣṇa by the so*-called rascal leaders. Otherwise India is meant for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the whole India. [break] ...scandalous these Māyāvādīs and next the politicians, killing the spirit of India. These Māyāvādīs teaching "Why you are after God? You are God." That's all. And he says, "Yes, I am God. Why shall I worship God?" This is the... And becoming God, when they do not get any relish of becoming God, then the politician says, "It is all useless. Come to the political field. Take daridra-nārāyaṇa-seva. That's all, finished." The Māyāvādī creates the field of atheism, and later on, the politician make them perfect atheist. Indian man (2): I am also building a small temple in my place here. [break] Prabhupāda: ...bharaṇena vā. Nidrāya hṛiyate naktaṁ vyāvayena ca vā vayaḥ [SB 2.1.3]. Vayaḥ means age. They are wasting their, this human form of life, duration of life, at night either by sleeping or by sex. Nidrāya hṛiyate naktraṁ vyāvayena ca vā vayaḥ. And in daytime... Divā cārthehaya rājan... In daytime-"Where is money? Where is money? Where is money?" And when he gets money, how to spend it for kuṭumbha, not for Kṛṣṇa. They get money sufficiently, and as soon as he is asked to spare some money for Kṛṣṇa, "No, the law is that I should give money to my sons. The law is." Even our devotees are saying like that. "The law is that I must give to my son, not to Kṛṣṇa." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our devotees are saying that? Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) "You just see my face, beautiful face. And whatever I had, that I have left with my sons and wife." Mostly they come... Indian man (2): And at the same time, they all are earning. Prabhupāda: No, that is for their sons. Indian man (2): They are earning themselves, their son, sufficiently. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...in the Back to Godhead that those who have come to Vṛndāvana for sense gratification, their next birth is monkey and dog in Vṛndāvana; then, next birth, liberated. So they became angry. Vṛndāvana is not for sense gratification. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura therefore says, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? You mention in your book that recently they have begun some demigod worship in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not recently. Since very long time. These gosvāmīs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Caste gosvāmīs. But originally this was not the fact. Prabhupāda: Originally there was Rūpa Gosvāmī. Now they are imitating. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end) Morning Walk -- September 13, 1975, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: This is called hog life, how to maintain this body. Kaṣṭan kāmān. Kāmān means necessities of life. Very, with great difficulty... [break] ...kāmān. Life can be easily maintained by agriculture and cow protection. No. They will start big, big mills, factories, motor tires, cars, instruments. Kaṣṭan kāmān. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is called ugra-karma, fierce... (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Fierceful activities. *Vraja*-vasi: Haribol! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kaṣṭan kāmān. Unnecessarily creating problems. [break] ...one after another, one after another. Formerly paper was used only for Vedic knowledge. Now the paper used for so many useless newspaper, volumes and volumes and jasusi(?), unnecessarily creating agitation of the mind. And if you explain these things they will say, "This is all primitive ideas." Modern ideas means one must work very hard day and night to get a little piece of capati. Hm? What is the answer. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If we don't work hard they say, "You are a burden on society. Prabhupāda: Hm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If a person doesn't work hard day and night they say, "You are just living on society." Prabhupāda: That I am explaining. The day and night is that pig is working. That I am explaining. Then what is the difference between the pig and me if I am also working hard like that pig? Huh? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no difference. Prabhupāda: Then why you say you are advanced civilization? That is forbidden. Kaṣṭan kāmān na arhati. It is not desirable; it is not good. You are given this body different from this pig because you will live peacefully and happily. Why should you accept kaṣṭan kāman, so hardship? Actually they do not want to work hard. Otherwise why the proprietor, the capitalist, they leave the factory and go to a solitary place? Why does he go? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't find any happiness even in the hard work. Prabhupāda: The other worker, he is seeing that "This rascal has engaged us in hard work and he is enjoying. So drive him out. Kill him." This is communism. Everyone wants that, comfort, peacefully living. Therefore this civilization, to work hard, is condemned. If hard work is desirable why the capitalists avoiding? Hm? What is answer? Upendra: They say they worked hard to get there. Prabhupāda: Eh? Upendra: They worked hard to get there. Prabhupāda: "To get there" means? Upendra: To get to their position they worked hard. Prabhupāda: What is their position? Upendra: Of relaxation. Prabhupāda: Relaxing. I am relaxing. Why you are inducing me? I am relaxing. Then why you are inducing me to work hard? I am already relaxing. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take little prasāda. That's all. Why you are inducing me to work hard? Brahmānanda: They say you have to earn your relaxation. Prabhupāda: But earn or not earn, I am enjoying relaxation. Brahmānanda: You're not entitled unless you work very hard. Prabhupāda: Oh. That is nonsense. Upendra: In America they say you have to pay for freedom. Prabhupāda: No, freedom, if I have got already, why shall I pay? I have already paid. Why you're inducing? I am already enjoying. Why you are inducing me to work hard? I have paid for it. By my karma in my previous life I have already paid for that; therefore I am enjoying. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't believe in the law of karma. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Rascal. This is a rascal civilization. Rascal civilization: one side, they say contraceptive; *another side, they will encourage woman to marry three times a week. This is their civilization. If you want stop population why you are inducing "Indulge in sex life"? Stop sex life*-brahmacārī. Everything is contradictory. And it is all sense gratification, based on sense gratification. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If a person is not satisfying his senses they think he is crazy. Prabhupāda: But where is your sense satisfied? You are crazy. You are repeatedly being kicked by nature, that your senses will never be satisfied. Still, you are trying for that. Even the old man of eighty years old, he is going to the nightclub. Where is sense satis... When his senses will be satisfied? (aside) Jaya. Relaxation. If somebody is relaxing, chanting, they will induce, "Oh, you are escaping." Brahmānanda: "Misery loves company." Prabhupāda: What is that? Brahmānanda: That's a saying, that if someone is feeling misery, he wants other people to also enjoy the misery. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: No one wants to suffer alone. Prabhupāda: Cutting the tail of the jackal. (Bengali) "My tail is cut, so your tail must be cut." This is a fashion. (pause) That is practical. The world is working so hard but where is the peace and happiness? Brahmānanda: It's coming. Prabhupāda: (laughs) When it will come? That is unknown. Brahmānanda: Maybe at the end of this century. Prabhupāda: And at the end of your life. Just like insurance policy. You'll be happy after death. "You go on paying now, work hard, go on paying the premium and you'll be happy after death." This is insurance policy. And I am going to be a dog after death, and how he'll be happy? Just see. Indian man (1): It is evident that miseries are growing darker and darker. *Prabhupāda: That must be because you are under nature's law. How you can avoid? As you are working, you will get the result. Karmana daiva*-netrena [SB 3.31.1]. There is superior power to supervise how you are working. Indian man (2): Karmana baddhyate jantur vidyaya... Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmana baddhyate. They do not know. Poor fund of knowledge. Rascals. Mūḍha. Kṛṣṇa comes to inform these rascals, "You are all duṣkṛtina, mūḍha." That is Kṛṣṇa's declaration. Na maṁ duṣkṛtino mū... "Therefore surrender unto Me." This is the whole purpose. Indian Man (2): *Prabhupāda: That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna. Although Arjuna is... Birth after birth, he is friend of Kṛṣṇa, nitya*-siddha. Still, he forgets, what to speak of others. Bahūni me janmāni tava cārjuna. That means, "We are friends always. So you also appear; I also appear. But the difference is you forget; I don't forget. That is difference between you and Me. You also don't forget. That is for limited time. But the consciousness is the same. Only difference is that My consciousness is unlimited; your consciousness is limited. That is difference." This understanding is ahaṁ brahmāsmi. My consciousness and Kṛṣṇa's consciousness, that is fact. But Kṛṣṇa's consciousness is everywhere; my consciousness is within myself. That's all. The Māyāvādī interprets, yena sarvam idaṁ tataḥ: "One who is expanded everywhere, pervaded." But I am not pervading everywhere. Dhṛṣṭaketu: They say when you become liberated then you become..., then you pervade everywhere. It's just that... They say that just now, in this position... Prabhupāda: So when you will be liberated? What is the standard of liberation? Dhṛṣṭaketu: By performing austerities, by studying the... Prabhupāda: That's all right. What is the standard? Dhṛṣṭaketu: When I merge, when I lose my identity, when I don't... Prabhupāda: That means you forget. You forget everything. Then how you will be liberated? Whatever little consciousness was there, that is finished. Then how you become liberated? Whatever you had, that is also finished. Eh? Then how you become liberated? Harikeśa: But what we are forgetting is just illusion anyway. *Prabhupāda: That is liberation. Then I kill you, you forget everything*-liberation. (laughter) What is the meaning of liberation? They do not know even the meaning of liberation. Harikeśa: To get rid of all these miseries. Prabhupāda: That you can do. I can kill you; you get rid of all miseries. Finished. You are finished; your miseries are finished. That's all. Brahmānanda: It doesn't matter whether you live or you die because it is all one. Prabhupāda: Well, let me kill you. That's all right. It will be great beneficial to you. Indian man (1): To my opinion, we are more liberated in... (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: Your opinion, my opinion. We have to consider the fact. (Vraja*-vasi passes by, singing) This is jīvan ko sabadiya tomara. This is surrender, that he is singing, jīvan ko sabadiya: "When I surrender unto Your lotus feet." That is surrender. This is liberation. Just like the child fully surrendered to the parent, he is liberated. He has no anxiety. He is confident "My parents are there. Whatever he'll do, that's all right for me." That is liberation. Indian man (1): We can become free from all anxieties. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is liberation. If you are filled up with anxieties where is your liberation? That is not liberation. Dhṛṣṭaketu: They will also say that this condition of being one with the Supreme is also... Prabhupāda: How you become one? If Kṛṣṇa or the consciousness is there but you lose your consciousness, why you become one? Harikeśa: Well, it's not exactly that we lose consciousness but we merge into the supreme consciousness. Prabhupāda: Supreme consciousness? Harikeśa: Then we become God. Prabhupāda: No. You cannot. Then why you are different now? Harikeśa: It's my līlā. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Then if it is līlā, then why you are undergoing austerity? That is also līlā. If it is līlā, then why you are trying to get out of it by practicing austerity? Harikeśa: Mahārāja Ṛṣabhadeva performed austerity. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: Ṛṣabhadeva, he performed austerity. Prabhupāda: No, what...? I do not follow what you say. Brahmānanda: He's saying that Ṛṣabhadeva performed austerity, so therefore I am performing austerity. Prabhupāda: You are performing but what is Ṛṣabhadeva's position? Brahmānanda: He never claimed to merge with the supreme consciousness. Dhanañjaya: But the whole thing is that the supreme consciousness is unembodied and we are embodied right now. So when we attain supreme consciousness we also become unembodied. Prabhupāda: How you become embodied if you are supreme? Who made you embodied if you are supreme? Then who made you embodied, he is supreme. You are not supreme. You did not like to be embodied; therefore you are trying to be bodyless. But who made you embodied? Then that he or she is supreme. You are not supreme. Dhṛṣṭaketu: I put myself in this condition so that I can enjoy getting out of it. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhṛṣṭaketu: I put myself in this condition of illusion so that I can enjoy being liberated. Prabhupāda: And so you put yourself to be kicked by me and enjoy. Just test what is the enjoyment of being kicked. Dhanañjaya: But without pain how can you experience pleasure? Prabhupāda: You get this experience, how it is pleasure? I kick and you enjoy? Dhṛṣṭaketu: The idea is that after experiencing the suffering of this material world then liberation will be very... Prabhupāda: Why there is suffering, material? You are supreme; why it is suffering for you? Dhṛṣṭaketu: Well, so that when I... Prabhupāda: So, there is no "so that." Why you are suffering? Brahmānanda: It's suffering only for those... Prabhupāda: If it is your līlā, then you are suffering. What is this nonsense of "my līlā." Suffering? Brahmānanda: The suffering is only for those who haven't..., who don't understand that they are supreme. Prabhupāda: Hm? Brahmānanda: Those who don't understand, they are the ones who suffer, but I don't suffer. Prabhupāda: So it is better to remain in that ignorance. Just like the hogs and dogs, they do not understand that this is suffering. But we can understand that this is suffering. Brahmānanda: Yes. To be a dog, that's all right because the dog doesn't suffer. He is enjoying. Prabhupāda: No, no, why you are doing austerity? Remain as dog and cat. Therefore you are mūḍha. You do not know what is suffering, what is enjoyment. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mam ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Therefore one who is intelligent, jñāni, bahūnām jan... After suffering in this way and talking all nonsense, when he comes to the real knowledge, then he surrenders. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān maṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. That is knowledge. Indian man (1): Kamādinaṁ katīna katidha palita durnideśaḥ. Prabhupāda: Ah. When he comes to this awareness, that "I have simply suffered and I wanted to maintain myself by jugglery of words," then he comes to the real knowledge. Dhṛṣṭaketu: So the Māyāvādīs' philosophy is actually the supreme illusion. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has forbidden. Māyāvādī*-bhāṣya sunile haya sarva nasa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. One is finished if he follows the Māyāvāda philosophy. He is doomed. He will never be able to accept the real philosophy. He will be absorbed in that false philosophy. This is Māyāvādī's position. Māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhī. They are aparādhī, offender. Therefore they shall remain perpetually in ignorance and think himself, "I am God." This is Māyāvādī's position. Vivekānanda preached openly that "Why you are thinking that you are sinful? You are God." He preached like that. Brahmānanda: The Christians, they have a concept of sin. So when Vivekānanda went to America he was telling them, "No, you forget this concept. Whatever you do, it's all right because you are God." They were surprised. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why they liked him. Prabhupāda: No, no. They did not like. The Christian priests did not like him. They condemned him, "Oh, you are come from India, and you are speaking nonsense, this?" In those hundred years the Christian priests were conscious: "But how is this? From India he has come and he's talking like nonsense?" They questioned in Chicago speech. Dhṛṣṭaketu: He's just fanning the fires of atheism. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: This Māyāvādī philosophy, is this...? *Prabhupāda: They are atheist. They are first*-class atheist, more than the Buddhist. Veda na maniya bauddha haila nāstika. The Buddhists, they did not accept Vedic authorities; therefore they are considered as nāstika. But vedāśraya nāstikya vada. These rascals, they accept Vedas and preaches atheism. So they are more dangerous than the Buddhists. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's version. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bauddha ke adhika: "They are more dangerous than the Buddhists." The Buddhists, although they are supposed to be atheists, they worship the Deity Lord Buddha. But they say it is māyā. And more advanced than these atheists. Brahmānanda: The Māyāvādīs. Prabhupāda: More... Not advanced. More degraded. These atheists, they have been taught to worship the form of Lord Buddha, and Buddha is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, so one day they will be delivered. But these rascals will never be delivered. *Pṛthu*-putra: I read in one of your books so many names about different groups of these Māyāvādī philosophers. Are they still existing today and active? Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who thinks godlessness, he is Māyāvādī, that's all. Anyone. All these impersonalists, they are all Māyāvādīs. And mostly they are now impersonalists. Dhṛṣṭaketu: So although we can't see it with our material eyes, their position is very precarious. *Prabhupāda: We have no eyes to see. We see through Kṛṣṇa. As Kṛṣṇa sees, we see. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. We are not perfect. Our position is that we are not perfect. But we are perfect so long we follow Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Just like I am blind man. I am not perfect. But if you have got eyes, if you take me I follow you. Then I am perfect. Kṛṣṇa assures that "You surrender to Me and I will make you free from all dangers," and we accept Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Our method is very easy. The child is walking, unable to walk, falling down. The parents say, father says, "My dear child, just catch my hand." Then he's safe. These Māyāvādīs, they go against the verdict of God. God says that "The living entities are My part and parcel," and they say, "I am God." So that is their foolishness. Part and parcel... Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivaṁso jīva*-bhutaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. Otherwise why God says, "Surrender unto Me," if you are equal with Him? Why God is asking, "Surrender unto Me"? You are not equal. You are rascal. You are claiming that "I am equal." Otherwise there is no question of surrender. "You surrender unto Me." And this knowledge of surrender comes, Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām: "This rascal is always thinking 'I am God, God, God.' This rascaldom is finished after many, many births, this ignorance." Then he surrenders. How the living entity is equal with God? Brahmānanda: Return? Dhṛṣṭaketu: Of course, they may say that "Kṛṣṇa is just an ordinary man like me and therefore He is asking..." Prabhupāda: Therefore you are rascal. Kṛṣṇa is ordinary man, and He is lifting the hill. Brahmānanda: Well, that's just a story in a book. Prabhupāda: He may be story for you. You may not believe that you have got a father but we are not mad. You can say, "To have a father is a story," but mother says, "No, you have your father." She is authority. You can say, "Oh, it is story." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They want historical evidence for everything. Brahmānanda: Yes, why doesn't Kṛṣṇa come and do it now? Prabhupāda: He is not your father's servant, that he will come by your order. He's the supreme master. Kṛṣṇa is doing the same thing still, but you have no eyes to see. Kṛṣṇa is doing. How this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading all over the world? Brahmānanda: Why doesn't God force me to surrender? Prabhupāda: No. That Kṛṣṇa is not a nonsense like you. Because Kṛṣṇa has given you little freedom He does not want to touch it. That is Kṛṣṇa. What He gives, He never takes it back. It is not a nonsensical award that "I give you sometimes; then I take it away." Kṛṣṇa does not do such. He has given you little freedom, so you can use it. Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63], Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad..., "Whatever you like, you do." That freedom is taken by nature. You are human being. If you do not engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then nature will withdraw this privilege and you'll become a dog. Kṛṣṇa does not take, but His agent, māyā, will take it away. Just like the police is the agent of the king or the government. The government does not care what you are doing. But if you do something criminal the police will punish you. Brahmānanda: But we're going to change the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. (laughter) That is also replied, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā dura... [Bg. 7.14]. "You cannot do that, my dear sir. You rascal, you are thinking like that. That is not possible." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they say they've already made so much progress. Prabhupāda: You go on making progress but you will never come to the ultimate goal. You can go on foolishly. That's all right. Just like they made progress, United Nations. What progress they have made? Harikeśa: They made a nice building. Prabhupāda: That's right. (laughs) There are so many buildings. Indian man (1): But they've been going to be assassinated. Prabhupāda: When I go that building, United Nations, I see how they are wasting money. Yes, I see. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have a very big budget, United Nations, billions of... Prabhupāda: Big, big. So many publications, so many big... *Indian man (1): They make everybody un*-united. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Disunited. *Pṛthu*-putra: You have written in one of your books that they are just becoming more flags instead of less. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They are increasing flags. Instead of one flag, they increasing flags. And they are trying for the last how many years? Thirty years? Brahmānanda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: To stop wars. But they haven't stopped a single war. Dhṛṣṭaketu: But if Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme and I should surrender unto Him, then why is it so hard to find out this knowledge? Why is it that only in the human form of life... Why is it so difficult to come to this knowledge if... Prabhupāda: Because you are rascal. For rascal everything is difficult. Easy thing is made difficult by rascals. That is the proof that you are rascal. By nature one is supposed to surrender to the parents. This is easy. Why do you do not do this? This is natural. Just like you have surrendered to me. Why? Because you think I am superior, you have to take knowledge from me. So if you have to accept some superior for your guidance, how you can deny surrendering? You see, brahmacārī, he is being taught daṇḍavat śīraṣi, by touching the head. Yesterday we were talking of that brahmacārī? That is the instruction. Who is this boy? Harikeśa: He's Kuṇḍali. He just came from New York. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He just came from New York. He's from the West... He's a Commonwealth citizen. He's from the West Indies. He says he'll stay in India for the rest of his life. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. So you are going to the magistrate? You have calculated? Saurabha: Ten thousand bags. Prabhupāda: Ten thousand bags. No, I wanted to construct this building with bricks. Saurabha: Yes, but we have to make some slabs and some... Prabhupāda: Slabs? So still you will require ten thousand? Saurabha: No. If we do with mud, then it will be much less. Prabhupāda: Not mud. The mortar means sand and cement. Guṇārṇava: No plaster? Prabhupāda: No, no, plastering also. Saurabha: No plastering. Prabhupāda: No, plastering also. Saurabha: But it comes to about eight thousand bags if I do the whole land like that around. That is the full thing, two stories. It comes to about eight thousand. And then there's always some extra for finalizing the floors... Prabhupāda: No, no. I don't want to use this iron. Saurabha: No, we don't require iron. Prabhupāda: Simply brick. So in that way you still require ten thousand? Saurabha: We require about eight thousand but it's best to apply for ten thousand. If we only need five thousand, we take that. They will give us that allotment. Prabhupāda: Do it. [break] Dhṛṣṭaketu: When Kṛṣṇa would play His flute then the airplanes would be there. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dhṛṣṭaketu: When Kṛṣṇa would play His flute then the airplanes would come and... Prabhupāda: Where is Kṛṣṇa playing flute? Dhṛṣṭaketu: In Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Oh. Then why the airplanes do not come Delhi? (laughter) (pause) He is godless and we have to fight against them. Just see our position. We have to fight with the whole world. Indian man (1): Number of forces will increase day by day. Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian man (1): Number of forces are increasing day by day, they will fight adequately. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But you have done it singlehanded, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Single*-handed, double-handed, doesn't matter-if Kṛṣṇa is there in the background. Arjuna fought singlehanded. Where is Praṇava? (Hindi) Indian man (1): (Hindi) Everyone was very much satisfied. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Indian man (1): Our Prabhupāda is kind enough to make so many swans like us to remove away all the evils of the world. Prabhupāda: (aside) Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- September 15, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...Brahmānanda explain. Trying for sense gratification. They do not know it, that what is the purpose of life. Brahmānanda: That is their ignorance. *Prabhupāda: So our mission is to eradicate this ignorance, that they are living in a wrong conception of life. That is the point. The human society is making so*-called progress under wrong conception of life. What is the answer? Therefore they have been described as mūḍha because they are living in a wrong conception, animal life. Wherefrom you have come? Vāsughoṣa: Kathmandu. Tonight I will go to Hyderabad. I am collecting money. But one thing I find even when we explain to these people, you know... Just like smoking cigarettes. In Kathmandu I was explaining to people, "What kind of enjoyment is this from smoking cigarettes? You are coughing..." This is the way Acyutānanda Swami also describes, so I picked up from him. "You are coughing. You are killing yourself." He also described like this, "Intoxication means poison. Toxic means poison. So this is intoxication. You are actually administering poison. What kind of sanity is this?" So all those people, they told me, "Well, I'll give up cigarettes later." Prabhupāda: At least they admit the fault, hm? Do they? Vāsughoṣa: Yes, some people... One hippie I was talking to, he was saying, "I believe in technology and Darwin's theory of evolution." So I said, "The greatest technologists in America have said that cigarettes can kill you. Why are you smoking these cigarettes?" He said, "Yes, I want to give it up," but then he kept on smoking. And to Indian people I explained about karma, you know, "according to your activity," and they all admit, "Yes, there is karma." So I said, "Why don't you serve Kṛṣṇa?" They said, "Later, later." They all say like that. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Dhṛṣṭaketu: So, your instructions in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam can stop their lust? It can stop... By hearing from Vedic authorities, their lust can be dissolved? Or do they have to just simply be frustrated in their attempts to enjoy sense gratification? Prabhupāda: They are being frustrated. Who is successful in the material world? Have you got any instance that he is successful? (pause) Then? *Vāsughoṣa: In every field someone is miserable. Just in America there was one lady, very famous etiquette expert, Amy Vanderbilt. So she jumped out of her window. She was sixty*-nine years old. Prabhupāda: There are many. I saw in Detroit, I think. The bridge is covered? Brahmānanda: San Francisco. The Golden Gate Bridge they have put... Prabhupāda: Not Golden Gate. That San Diego, I think. We crossed one bridge to go to the... Brahmānanda: Oh, yes, San Diego also. They have these fences so when people jump off they are caught by the fences. (laughter) Prabhupāda: And I think in Berkeley? The tower? Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. In the college university they have a big clock tower... Prabhupāda: These are the signs how they are disappointed. They are always ready to commit suicide. So where is success? Vāsughoṣa: They are practically committing suicide by their activities. Prabhupāda: That is also another side. But practically you see. *Vāsughoṣa: Hm. But by this smoking cigarettes, meat*-eating... I mean, we explain to them that doctors have found that meat-eating... Prabhupāda: I have seen about some thirty years ago, one man was sitting... I was traveling in the railway apartment, and all of a sudden he jumped through the window. Devotees: Whew! Prabhupāda: All of a sudden. He was sitting nicely. What he was thinking I do not know. But he took the opportunity of open window and jumped. I have seen. Indian man (1): A kind of insanity overpowered him. *Prabhupāda: Insanity... everyone is overpowered by insanity, anyone in this material world and who is trying to be happy. Everyone is in insanity. They are trying to different way. They do not know the only solution is, as Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇa... [Bg. 18.66]. That they do not, neither they'll accept. Vāsughoṣa: Especially Indian people, you know, they say, "Well, if I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, who will feed me?" Prabhupāda: No, no, Indian, American, everyone. Why you are, American, you are so proud of your...? Vāsughoṣa: No. (laughter) No, but because in India people know that they should surrender to Kṛṣṇa, no? Prabhupāda: But you also know. Vāsughoṣa: But the general mass, I mean, of Americans, they don't understand. *Prabhupāda: These are faulty, fault*-finding. It is no good. Everyone. Kṛṣṇa did not say for Indian or American. For everyone. But at the present moment Indians are misled that they have been, I mean to say, induced to think that if they become like American or Western people they will be happy. That is misleading. *Vāsughoṣa: I was telling them that in America the big thing is they want to raise the standard of living, but then those people who had raised the standard of living, they are also killing themselves. But they don't want to listen. Actually in Nepal I was reading every day in the paper the king was saying that "Our goal is economic development. That is the top priority. Number*-one priority is economic development." Prabhupāda: Who? Which king? Vāsughoṣa: King of Nepal, King Birendra. He's the only Hindu king in the world. He has so many... He is embarking on so many programs of economic development in his country. *Prabhupāda: Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. They have been described as "chewing the chewed." They have no eyes to see that Europe and America, they have developed so much economically, but what is the peace there? They're jumping quietly. You see? (laughter) They are going to chew the same thing, chewing the chewed. Passerby: Haribol! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dhṛṣṭaketu: Does a person have to experience enough frustration to give up this process of... Prabhupāda: Frustration, that already said, that everyone is frustrated. But because they are mūḍhas they do not know that they are being frustrated. That is the point. Everyone is frustrated. Dhṛṣṭaketu: That goes on perpetually until they receive the mercy of a pure devotee? Prabhupāda: Hm? Dhṛṣṭaketu: That frustration or that... *Prabhupāda: Well... Kṛṣṇa failed to give mercy, and what devotee will do? They are stubborn to stick to their principle. Kṛṣṇa said personally, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām [Bg. 18.66], but who is going to do that? And what the devotees will do? Vāsughoṣa: If we just engage them in devotional service will they ultimately become purified? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our mission. Somehow or other go on repeatedly saying. Vāsughoṣa: Because even that atheist hippie, when he was... after he was talking to me about the cigarettes, then the next morning I sold him a book, so he gave twenty rupees. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the way. Some way or other, induce. [break] Obstinacy. What is that, "dog obstinacy"? Dhṛṣṭaketu: They say, "Stubborn as an ass." Prabhupāda: Hm. [break] ...selling different types of religious system so that one may not have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. Vāsughoṣa: Many people were... On the way to... Even on the way to here... Prabhupāda: And big, big swamis are saying, "Yes, whatever you manufacture, it is all right." Yathā mat tathā path: "Whatever ways you manufacture by concoction, that is all right." So they are satisfied. If somebody says that "You surrender unto me," that is not very palatable. If somebody says, "No, you can surrender anywhere," that is very palatable. Brahmānanda: Because that means no surrender. To surrender anywhere... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: ...means no surrender. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Then they're satisfied. Vāsughoṣa: Many people say, "We have to do our karma." They are telling me, "Do your duty." Prabhupāda: This is the duty: you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This is the only duty. Vāsughoṣa: They say their family, their wife, their job, their children, all these things. Brahmānanda: Sometimes they say, "When He wills it, then I will do it." (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not willing, when He says that "You do this"? Vāsughoṣa: They say, "When He makes my heart... When He puts it in my heart, and when He makes my heart open up to Him, then I will..." Prabhupāda: And you have no heart. You have simply stone. (laughter) That is sung by some Vaiṣṇava, that "My heart is harder than the stone, because I know that even the stone melts by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, but my heart does not melt. Therefore I think it is harder than the stone." Indian man (2): Once somebody asked Prabhupāda Mahārāja in Calcutta that "When can you show me Kṛṣṇa?" Prabhupāda Mahārāja said that "Here is Kṛṣṇa. You cannot see because your eyes are stones. They are not the eyes. If you have got the eyes, you can see it here." Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (2): "And these people have not come to worship stone. They have come to see Kṛṣṇa, and they are decorating, and they know that Kṛṣṇa is here." That at Calcutta, you said. Prabhupāda: Hm. So what did he say? Indian man (2): Yes, Prabhupāda, he accepted immediately. Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we should return. *Prabhupāda: Return? All right. [break] ...seen by premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. Unless there is love for God, who can see God? Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu. One who is lover of God, such saintly person, twenty-four hours he sees simply God, nothing else. Hari-śauri: [break] ...last night, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he was saying that if everything is ultimately spiritual, if one is spiritually advanced, he sees everything as spiritual. Then if everything is spiritual, then we can carry on just doing the same things that we're doing now, because it's all for God. *Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa says that "Everything is My energy, but..." Mat*-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣu: [Bg. 9.4] "But I am not there." This is the answer. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's expansion, but not that everything is Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (2): It is also not spiritual. Prabhupāda: What is that? Indian man (2): The energy is there, but it is not spiritual. Prabhupāda: No, it is spiritual, but because I do not know Kṛṣṇa, therefore I see material. Just like this microphone. It is being used for Kṛṣṇa; therefore it is spiritual. Actually, originally, it is from Kṛṣṇa. So we are not using these material things. Everything, whatever we using, that is spiritual. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if this is spiritual, spiritual means eternal. But this microphone will fall to pieces. Prabhupāda: Yes, but scientifically it will keep the energy, conservation of energy. Even it is destroyed, it will remain. The material manifestation means bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. It is sometimes destroyed and sometimes manifest. But the energy is there. Indian man (2): And also remain in different form. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Just like this is earth. Now you prepare hundreds or thousands of earthen pots and dolls. When it is destroyed, again it is earth. So when it is manifested, it is earth. When it is not manifested, it is earth. So from the spiritual energy of Kṛṣṇa everything becomes manifested, and therefore originally it is spiritual. Kṛṣṇa said, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir..., bhinnā me prakṛtiḥ: [Bg. 7.4] "It is My prakṛti, energy." So how Kṛṣṇa's energy can be material? Because we forget Kṛṣṇa, therefore it appears material. (Aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) [break] ...Mahāprabhu, as soon as He entered the Jagannātha temple He immediately fainted. Did He see the wooden Jagannātha? It is a question of seeing and prepare the eyes to see. Vāsughoṣa: Once I went to one Gauḍīya Matha in South India, and I showed them a picture of our Deities in Hyderabad. They said, "This Kṛṣṇa is white." So later on I told that story to Acyutānanda Swami, and he said, "Do you know what I tell those people? I say, 'No, Kṛṣṇa is not white. You just can't see Kṛṣṇa.' " So like that, sometimes we are criticized by them for Kṛṣṇa in the Deity being white. [break] *Hari-śauri: ...Kṛṣṇa's energy is all*-spiritual, then why in Bhagavad-gītā does Kṛṣṇa make a distinction-"My separated material energy"? Why does He say, "separated"? Prabhupāda: Separated... Just like I am talking and this will be reproduced as it is, although it is separated. Hari-śauri: So He's not personally present there. Prabhupāda: Yes. When you replay, the same voice will come, but I am not there. So if you want to utilize this separated energy for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it will help you. Just like the Deity. Everyone knows it is stone, but why we are worshiping stone? Hari-śauri: It is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is as good as Kṛṣṇa. It is not worshiping the stone. Huh? Indian man (2): Worship, who are worshiping, it never comes to their mind that it is a stone. Prabhupāda: No. Therefore the... That is the qualification. [break] ...qualified, you will see it is spiritual. Vāsughoṣa: There are some religions that... Especially the one I am born in, they were especially preaching, you know, that "You should never see a graven image of God." Prabhupāda: Hm? Vāsughoṣa: "You should never see a graven image of God." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is required, because you are not competent to see God everywhere. Vāsughoṣa: No, but they... Brahmānanda: They prohibit. Vāsughoṣa: They prohibit the worship of this vigraha. They say that "God cannot be made into a graven image." Brahmānanda: They say it is blasphemy. Prabhupāda: No. Yes, we also say. Although everything is expansion of the energy of Kṛṣṇa, not that everything is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference between Māyāvāda philosophy and Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Vaiṣṇava philosophy takes everything as expansion of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Parāsya brāhmaṇa śaktiḥ. (Aside:) Jaya. Sarvedam akhilaṁ jagat. Everything is expansion of the energy of the Supreme Brahman. Kṛṣṇa confirms it, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. Without Kṛṣṇa, there is no existence. But that does not mean anything existentional is Kṛṣṇa. That is Māyāvāda philosophy. Brahmānanda: These religions even say that it is offensive to say the name of God. Prabhupāda: So what can I do? (laughter) If the rascal says something, so what can I do? Brahmānanda: Even when they write the word "God," they don't say, "g, o, d." They say "g, dash," then "d," so that they've indicated God, but they haven't said "God." Vāsughoṣa: "It's too holy to pronounce," that's what they... Prabhupāda: No, they can say, "G, zero, and d." (laughter) Zero between g and d. That is a nice explanation. Devotee (4): Zero signifies their love for Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Zero is controlling both sides, g and d. Just like if you multiply something by zero, what it becomes? Brahmānanda: Zero. Prabhupāda: That's all. Śūnyavādī. Vāsughoṣa: [break] ...people are following very strictly, how can we preach to them? Some of those people who are following these religions very strictly, how do we preach to them, those people? Prabhupāda: Ask them, "What do you mean by religion?" Vāsughoṣa: Well, they will say what is in their śāstra, their Bible. Prabhupāda: Let them say what is there. Then you can talk with them. Brahmānanda: They say, "I love God. I go to church every... Once a week I go, Sunday morning. I make my prayer. So what more? I have my family. I have my job." Vāsughoṣa: But I was reading in this National Geographic Magazine, there is one sect of people in New York City, very orthodox following. They don't even go to cinema. When they have free time they are studying the śāstras, their śāstras. They are very strict. They don't even shave their faces because it says, "Do not round the corner of your face." So they have these big beards like this, and their whole life is dedicated like this to reading and... They also sing and dance. Prabhupāda: That is something good. Brahmānanda: When I was a teacher in New York I taught in one of their schools. I taught the little children... [break] Prabhupāda: After that, he is fit down(?). Then, if life member comes, he can simply stay in the guest room without any charges for three days. [break] Dhṛṣṭaketu: ...that one is making progress by how he feels, or should he just simply execute the order of the spiritual master and not worry about how he feels? How should... In other words... Prabhupāda: If he is making progress, he must feel. If he is not making progress, then he will not feel. Dhṛṣṭaketu: And that feeling is a willingness to serve Kṛṣṇa or... *Prabhupāda: No, that is always. Whether he is actually serving Kṛṣṇa... That is devotion. So if he is actually serving Kṛṣṇa, then anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt bhajana-kriyā. Bhajana-kriyā means anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. This is the result. If his anartha is not decreasing, or becoming zero, then he is not making bhajana. He is doing something else. Dhṛṣṭaketu: And if he's not feeling increased ecstasy, then he should try to change his position or try to perform... Prabhupāda: No. There is no change of position. Position is the same. Dhṛṣṭaketu: Because once this question was asked that... In class a devotee asked that "I'm losing my taste for serving the Deity, and I don't know what to do," and so they asked this question. So... Prabhupāda: He can chant. There is no question of "I am losing interest." If he is actually following the rules and regulations, there is no question of losing interest. Hari-śauri: There is never any decrease. Dhṛṣṭaketu: You mean if one simply follows everything that is outlined in the temple schedule and... Prabhupāda: Yes. That should be strictly followed. Dhṛṣṭaketu: Then his feeling will gradually develop. He'll gradually develop love then. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā. If his anartha is decreased, then he becomes firmly fixed up. There is no question of decreasing. (end) Morning Walk Excerpt -- September 17, 1975, Våndävana Dhanañjaya: ...at midday. He said we should also fast this morning. In fact, he said we should really fast all day and break the fast at moonrise. Harikeśa: He said that? Dhanañjaya: Is that right? Until this evening? Harikeśa: No. He didn't say that. Dhanañjaya: Oh. What did he say? He said fast all day. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. Harikeśa said that. Brahmānanda: On our calendar it says tomorrow is Vāmana... *Harikeśa: Tomorrow is Vāmana*-dvādaśī. Prabhupāda: You can come back, half past six, in my room. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- September 18, 1975, Våndävana Dhṛṣṭaketu: It says that, er... stated that the Lord's pastimes in Vṛndāvana and Dvārakā are passing through the universe just as the sun passes over the face of the earth. Prabhupāda: Where is that? *Dhṛṣṭaketu: So, and each time they are the same. The same pastimes beginning from His birth up to mauṣala*-līlā, they are the same each time. Prabhupāda: No. Dhṛṣṭaketu: No? They are different in different universes? Oh. Prabhupāda: Varieties. Dhṛṣṭaketu: Oh. So that means that we just get a glimpse of... Prabhupāda: (to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dhṛṣṭaketu: ...Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is unlimited; His pastimes are unlimited. Indian man (1): Could I permitted to take a Bengali class one hour daily, the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust room for foreign and also Indian boys? Prabhupāda: They are interested in learning Bengali? Indian man (1): Yes, some of them are interested. Prabhupāda: Yes? *Indian man (1): I think they should learn Bengali well to go through the books written in original*-Vṛndāvana dāsa Ṭhākura's and the six Gosvāmīs. If they learn, then they will be able to understand the siddhānta very well. Prabhupāda: We are presenting them in English. *Dhṛṣṭaketu: If the Lord's pastimes are..., they are manifested differently, are they manifested the same in each..., in one universe? In this universe are they the same or...? Are they different every time? In other words, is the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam a history of what took place once, and then it will be different next time? Prabhupāda: That is not different. Each of them are identical. Dhṛṣṭaketu: But there are new ones also? New pastimes? *Prabhupāda: Everything identical. Now, this grass grown here and this grass grown there, there may be some difference, but they are identical. Harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] ...that professor who has reviewed Caitanya*-caritāmṛta? Brahmānanda: I think it was J. Bruce Long. Cornell University, very respected university. Prabhupāda: Oh. And what he is there? Brahmānanda: Professor of Asian Studies. Kirtirāja says that he is considered one of the authorities. Prabhupāda: Of Indian. Indology. Brahmānanda: Yes. And his reviews are published extensively in various journals. So they are going to try to get this review published also. [break] Prabhupāda: Charity box daily counted? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Daily counted. Prabhupāda: So how much it is? *Dhanañjaya: Pūrṇa*-candra, how much was collected? *Pūrṇa*-candra: 120 rupees. Prabhupāda: So you write separately. *Pūrṇa*-candra: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: And it is sent to the bank. And foodstuff selling? Prasāda? *Pūrṇa*-candra: It is... Collected sixty rupees. Prabhupāda: Book? *Pūrṇa*-candra: Ninety rupees. Prabhupāda: So they are all differently? *Pūrṇa*-candra: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: What is the sale proceeds of the prasāda? Dhanañjaya: During the week it's about sixty to eighty rupees, and at the weekends, over a hundred rupees. At weekends there are far more people coming to the temple from Delhi. Prabhupāda: So average, eighty rupees. So you are purchasing ghee, four kilos or more. Dhanañjaya: Now we have stopped that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dhanañjaya: Now we have stopped. We've reduced the quantity. Prabhupāda: Why you were purchasing more? Dhanañjaya: We were purchasing because the ghee was being used in all the preparations, in all the vegetable preparations... Prabhupāda: That's all right. So what is the price of four kilos? *Devotee (2): Eighty*-eight rupees. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Dhanañjaya: Eighty*-eight rupees. Prabhupāda: So you collect only the ghee price. And what about others? Other, attar and sugar and so many things? That means you are spending hundred rupees, and the kitchen department, you are is collecting eighty rupees. So twenty rupees lost. Hm? So what is this business? What you are spending, you must collect also. Or balance you are eating? Dhanañjaya: A few days ago a devotee donated three hundred rupees to the Deities. Prabhupāda: Donated, that is all right. I am talking of the business. Dhanañjaya: I see. Prabhupāda: Donate, I may donate three thousand. But that is a different thing. But from practical point of view, you are spending hundred rupees per day, and you are collecting eighty rupees. Dhanañjaya: So we should only make what we... Prabhupāda: You should only... You do not know what you are doing. That is my point. You do not know what you are doing. Dhanañjaya: The point is we want to keep a good standard of prasādam. So one day if we... Prabhupāda: That's all right, good standard, but you must collect good standard also. (chuckles) Spend good standard and collect bad standard. What is this? Indian man (1): But there is great demand for prasādam. Great demand for prasādam. Prabhupāda: So why you are not making more and sell? *Dhanañjaya: No, during the week there are not so many people. Like yesterday Patita*-pāvana was explaining that there was prasādam left over. Prabhupāda: So you should know. You have experience when it is demand and more. Dhanañjaya: Yes. That we know. We know the demand is at the weekends, and there's also some special festivals, so we make more prasādam for these occasions. Indian man (1): There is another great demand for photos of... Almost everyone asks for photos of the Deities of the temple and of other places also. They all..., the temples and Deities. Everyone asks for photos, nice photos. Prabhupāda: So why they are not printed? Indian man (1): They will be good sale of photos, I think. (Hindi) It may be supplied in that book shop. *Dhanañjaya: So Bhargava has taken many good shots of the Deities on color film, and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa informed me that we should print postcard*-size photos of the Deities and sell them for fifty paisas each. So that, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa is arranging for. [break] ...demand for prasādam will go on increasing because one doctor came to our temple and informed us that at Bankebihari Mandir, because they have been giving out old prasādam, selling old prasādam, which is not in accordance with the health safety rules, they are going to take away that privilege of selling prasādam from Bankebihari temple. Prabhupāda: So you don't do that. You prepare and sell fresh. Don't prepare more what is required. You have brought that pulleys? Dhanañjaya: Yes. And he got two. Prabhupāda: You have fixed up? Guṇārṇava: They are fixing today. They started the work. Prabhupāda: You know how to fix? Guṇārṇava: Yes. They know how to do it. Prabhupāda: One bamboo, you just crosswise fix up and then in the middle... The rope should come through one pulley first, then the second pulley. Then it will not go out. Indian man (1): Ringing also will be nice. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So you see to fix it up nicely. Harer nāma, harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Saccidānanda said they are purchasing vegetables, fruits-125*-but you have increased, 190. Why? Dhanañjaya: The devotees' prasāda? Devotees' bhoga? Prabhupāda: Devotees or... Daily they were purchasing 125. But you said, "No, it must be more," and the banana is rotting. Why do you purchase more? Dhanañjaya: No, I allotted five rupees per person. Prabhupāda: Therefore it must be spent. Dhanañjaya: No, not it must be spent. Prabhupāda: Then? Because five rupees allotted, then it must be spent. Never mind the fruits are rotten. What is this intelligence? To save money or to squander it, that is your policy. *Dhanañjaya: So when you told Smara*-hari to purchase in quantity, the first thing he purchased was bananas. Prabhupāda: Because he is monkey, he wants banana, very nice. *Smara*-hari: You see, Prabhupāda, yesterday we fasted in the morning and because it was ekādaśī there were extra bananas bought for yesterday morning, and they weren't used, so there are some left over. So this is why... Prabhupāda: Why some left over? *Smara*-hari: Because they weren't used yesterday morning. Prabhupāda: They weren't, but why it is left over? *Smara*-hari: They were saved for this morning to save money, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Rather than eat a lot of bananas yesterday afternoon, they were saved for this morning. *Prabhupāda: When it is required, you can purchase. But I understand that you purchase more and it is left over. Don't squander money. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaṣ ca prajalpo niya... [NoI 2]. Atyāhāra*-to eat more, to collect more, they are against bhakti principle. And why they are going twice in the market? Dhanañjaya: Because sometimes Daivī-śakti, she does not give her list. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. Does not give list-then don't bring. Everyone must supply list in the evening and once it should... (aside) Jaya. It is not that Daivī-śakti gives one list*-you have to go. What is this? Everything purchased in the morning, that's all. And rice, dahl, attar, ghee, for fifteen days. Only the raw fruits and vegetables should be purchased every morning. That's all. Dhanañjaya: So Viśvambhara is going this morning to grain merchants to arrange. Prabhupāda: Hm? Dhanañjaya: Viśvambhara is going to arrange that today, to purchase for fifteen days. Prabhupāda: Any shopkeeper will supply fifteen days. He will bring at your home and your pay him, forthrightly? (indistinct) Indian man (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Should not the temple be kept open earlier than six o'clock in the afternoon? Many people are... Prabhupāda: Six o'clock? Guṇārṇava: 5:15. Indian man (1): Six o'clock. The temple is going to open in the afternoon at six o'clock. Dhanañjaya: Temple opens at four o'clock. The door of the gates. Indian man (1): No, temple, mandir. Dhanañjaya: The gates open at four o'clock, and the doors open at 5:15 for ārati. Ārati is at 5:15. Prabhupāda: But 5:15 means six because you are very expert. Dhanañjaya: Always it's 5:15. Indian man (1): Not earlier than 5:30, I find. Guṇārṇava: No, it's 5:15. Dhanañjaya: (to Indian man:) You are saying wrong. It's 5:15 every day. It's never late. Prabhupāda: No, why not five? Why 5:15? Make it five. Dhanañjaya: All right. Prabhupāda: Your signboard is "five." Why you make 5:15? Everything should be on routine, strictly. Dhanañjaya: But the main gates are open to the public at four o'clock. Prabhupāda: That's nice. They can wait on the corridor. I wanted Praṇava to speak, but he is not interested. What I can do? I told you that "You read books and speak. Try to preach." Yes. Did I not say? Did I not say to you that you and Dikṣita, "Study together and..." Praṇava (an older Indian man): We started immediately on the very same day. Next day I was asked to leave, so I have left. Prabhupāda: You have left forever. Praṇava: No. I can never leave for... *Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then why don't you do that business? In the evening, four o'clock, you can speak. The whole day you can read and reproduce in the four o'clock. Then you understand what is the philosophy. If you simply reproduce what is written there in the book you become preacher. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. We haven't got to manufacture anything. Praṇava: Since you have asked me, I have got one question I ask you. Yesterday my wife went for saṅkīrtana, and the mike was stopped in the middle, so she felt little... But I said, "Since we have to make kīrtana, Prabhupāda..." Prabhupāda: Why the mike was stopped? Indian: "...like it and you should go on." So if your kind permission is there, she will continue in whatever way... Guṇārṇava: In what way was the microphone stopped? What do you mean? Praṇava: Yes, it was stopped for some time. Prabhupāda: That mike stops sometimes. That is another thing, not that purposely... Praṇava: It stopped purposely. And especially at the time of that tulasī ārati also because somebody may not have liked that she should come or.... Guṇārṇava: Who stopped your wife from singing? Praṇava: That I don't know. Brahmānanda: You have to say. Guṇārṇava: You have to tell. Brahmānanda: You have to say. Praṇava: I'll find out. Brahmānanda: You find out. Praṇava: I didn't come. She came at that time only. In the morning time the mike is not, also it is not allowed to use. I think it is... Prabhupāda: No, no, unless there is crowd, don't use the mike. Praṇava: But in morning time... Prabhupāda: Morning or evening, unless there is crowd, what is the use of using mike? Praṇava: For broadcasting outside. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. When there is crowd, you use mike. [break] ...Saheb is doing? Dhanañjaya: Mr. Cyavana? Now he is sitting at the reception desk in the morning, and Nayanābhirāma... Prabhupāda: What is the reception? Who is coming? Dhanañjaya: Some people are always coming. They are inquiring about the guesthouse, about life membership. And Nayanābhirāma is instructing him how to inform the people about membership and about the guest rooms. Actually Rājasabhā, he keeps a hotel in Madhya Pradesh. Prabhupāda: Hm? Dhanañjaya: He has his own hotel business, so he is quite experienced. Prabhupāda: So he can manage. Dhanañjaya: Yes. So there's no need for added expense of getting someone from outside. Prabhupāda: No. No. If he can manage, that is nice. Dhanañjaya: Otherwise I am sure such a person will simply try to cheat us. And he is quite prepared to do that service for us. Prabhupāda: All right. Let him do that. Now bring guest. Dhanañjaya: Yes. So Tejas, he has prepared some ads for the Delhi newspapers. Prabhupāda: What is ad? Dhanañjaya: Advertising. Prabhupāda: I know that. Dhanañjaya: And we have also prepared signs. Brahmānanda: How much did you spend on ads? Dhanañjaya: One hundred rupees. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dhanañjaya: One hundred rupees. Prabhupāda: For advertising? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter? *Dhanañjaya: Well, he made a design of the front of the temple, and he put underneath, "Come and stay at the Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma āśrama for..." *Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple," not "āśrama." Dhanañjaya: "Temple." All right. "And become..." Something like, "and become enlightened with transcendental knowledge," something like that. He's explaining briefly. Prabhupāda: He... What does he know? He'll explain? He is explaining. What does he know. He'll explain? Dhanañjaya: Tejas has written. Prabhupāda: No, no. That Rājasabhā. Dhanañjaya: Oh, Rājasabhā. Prabhupāda: Rājasabhā, what does he know about our philosophy? Dhanañjaya: Well, Nayanābhirāma is there to guide him. And he's reading every day also. He's got our books, and he's reading every day without fail. Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Dhanañjaya: In fact, he was asking for more books, and I said, "First of all you read all these books I have given you. Then I will supply you more. So he spends at least three or four hours a day reading in his room. *Prabhupāda: That's good. So he should read Śrīmad*-Bhagavad-gītā, Nectar of Devotion, then Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, then Caitanya-caritāmṛta. [break] ...but he still has asked for books. He wants to become member. From Jaipur. How to...? [break] (Hindi) Indian man (1): (Hindi) I cannot start because I have shifted. I'll arrange. Prabhupāda: All right. Harikeśa: He comes every night at ārati, the nine o'clock ārati. Prabhupāda: Call him. I want to talk with him. (end) Morning Walk -- September 19, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...kovida. Kovida means very intelligent person, not rascals, fools. Kovida, very expert. Kovida. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta: "He should endeavor for that thing." What is that "that thing"? Na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adaḥ: "Which is never happened to be achieved, although in different forms of life I have traveled in different planets, transmigration, but I could not get that." So in this human form of life, tasyaiva hetoḥ, which I did not get in so many lives... That means Kṛṣṇa. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adaḥ [SB 1.5.18]. Uparyadaḥ. Upari means higher planetary system; *adaḥ, down planetary system. "Then? Simply I shall work for that purpose? Then what about my belly?" People are always... Whole world is embarrassed how to fulfill the belly. Huh? That economic question, this question, that question, philanthropism, this "ism," that "ism." The whole thing is centered round this belly. So one may question, "Then all things should be stopped?" Yes, all things will be stopped. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. "Then the problem... How shall I eat? How shall I become happy?" So śāstra says, tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ kalenā sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā. You are trying for getting happiness, satisfaction, but you do not try for distress. So why the distress comes? Indian man: Automatically. *Prabhupāda: So if distress comes automatically, then happiness also will come automatically. Why should you try for this so*-called distress and happiness? You try for Kṛṣṇa. This is life. Just like the other day your liver fractured? Indian man: Yes, sir, very badly. Prabhupāda: So you did not want this. Indian man: No. Prabhupāda: So why did it, it happened? Indian man: Kṛṣṇa is only that who is... Prabhupāda: No, no, Kṛṣṇa is all right. Why it happened? You did not want it. Indian man: No, I did not want it. Prabhupāda: So similarly, the happiness which is destined to you, that will also happen, even though you do not want it. [break] ...rupees. Now I have got forty crores. Who has given me? Indian man: Yes. Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has given me. So depend on Kṛṣṇa. He says, teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemam: "One who is engaged in My service, all that he wants, I supply." He says. See practically. Whatever we wanted, it is coming. It is coming not for my credit or another, anyone credit. It is all Kṛṣṇa's credit. He is giving. As soon as He sees that "They are working for Me," He'll supply everything, whatever you need. Simply we must be sincere and spend it very cautiously, not squandering the money. Then He will give us everything. There is no need of surma(?)-making. I say it is nonsense that by surma*-making I will be happy. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovidaḥ. Only for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness we should work. Then everything will come, whatever we want. That is called anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ [Brs. 1.1.11], without desiring for anything else. [break] "...in a rented house, there was no trouble. And as soon as this Devidatta gave us this marble palace, then there was competition who will occupy which room. In this way dissension began. So I am desiring that this dissension will increase and there will be fire. So to save this fire, I wish to get out all the marbles from this house and sell it and publish some books. That will remain." He said to me. Then I understood that he is giving more stress on books. "Sell the marbles and publish book instead of creating dissension amongst ourself." So, strictly, anyone occupies this guest room, he must pay. (end) Morning Walk -- September 25, 1975, Ahmedabad Prabhupāda: Society has lost this saṁskāra process; *therefore they remain in the animal platform. Janman jāyate śūdra saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. When a person is born even in human society, he remains a śūdra. Śūdra means almost like animal. Now he has to be reformed. That is called saṁskāra. Then twice*-born. The first-class twice-born is brāhmaṇa. Second-class twice-born is kṣatriya. And third-class twice-born is the vaiśya. And remaining, who cannot be reformed, they remain śūdra. But there is cooperation between brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and the society makes progress simultaneously for everyone. That is human society. At the present moment mostly all of them remain śūdras or less..., caṇḍālas. So how there can be any peace? It is not possible. There is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, maybe a few vaiśyas only. They are also half-reformed. And European culture, that is caṇḍāla culture, yavana culture. There is no reformation, no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, simply śūdras and caṇḍālas mostly caṇḍālas. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is means for thoroughly overhauling the whole human society. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Brahmānanda: They think it is freedom to be able to do whatever you feel, whatever you want. Prabhupāda: Rascal, where is your freedom? You are kicked out like football from one life to another. Where is your freedom, rascal? That they do not know. Therefore they are śūdras. He is being kicked out like football from this pole to that pole, and still he is thinking, "I am free." Brahmānanda: They think reformation is a restriction. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reformation means restriction. Civilized means restriction. Aryan means restriction. That is civilized life. Unrestricted life means cats and dogs. Laws are meant for restriction, and they are meant for the human society, not for the cats and dogs. Why the legislative assembly is there? Why the cars are going right or left? It is meant for the civilized person, not for the cats and dogs. So civilization means restriction. A dog can have sex life on the street, but you cannot have. That is restriction because you are civilized. Civilized means restriction. The more you restrict, more you become civilized. Otherwise you remain animal. Brahmānanda: They say that these things are simply external. Prabhupāda: External, but you are animal. (laughs) You cannot understand. You see. Mūḍha. "External." Why external? You violate the laws of nature; immediately you'll be punished. Why external? You infect some disease; you'll be immediately punished. Why external? It is the law of nature. You must have to follow; otherwise you'll be punished. You have got experience. If you touch fire... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you touch fire, then it must burn. Why? Can you restrict the fire? Similarly, laws of nature is so strict, as soon as you violate... Laws of nature means God's nature. Brahmānanda: But by our technology we will change the laws of nature. *Prabhupāda: That is your foolishness. What you have changed? Can you stop the fire burning your hand? Can you change this? Then why you talk foolish? These are foolish propositions. Nature will act. You may be so-called advanced in science. What is, your science will do? Will you not die? Will you not be diseased? Will you not become old? Then where is your advancement? You are strictly under the laws of nature. You cannot violate a single inch even. Daiv hy eṣ guṇamay mama māy duratyayā. One sane man should consider that "Why I am strictly under the laws of nature? I am prime..." This question was put by Sanātana Gosvāmī, that "I am prime minister. People adore me as paṇḍita, very learned, but why I am put into these tribulations of the laws of nature? Why as prime minister and learned paṇḍita I cannot counteract it?" This is real question. Simply doggish mentality: "Yes, why shall I not do it? Why shall I?"*-what will benefit you? That means you are not even sober. You are not human being. Human being should question "Why?" That is human being. Now by nature's law the river is full with water. If the nature does not supply, what you can do, your so-called science? Can you fill up with water? Then what is your science? Bogus. You cannot counteract the laws of nature. Hm? Can you? Brahmānanda can. (laughter) He is strong enough. Kartikeya, you can do it? Kartikeya (Indian Life Member): No, I can't do it. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kartikeya: We depend upon nature, so we can't counteract. Prabhupāda: It is not possible. It is all foolishness. Kartikeya: We can go this small park. Harikeśa: It's a nice park? Kartikeya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now these rascal Westerners, there the women claiming equal rights. Change that the man will give birth to a child and not the woman. Kartikeya: Equal right. Prabhupāda: Equal rights. Make agreement. "Once you beget; *once I shall." (laughs) Make this contract. Then it is equal right. If the woman has to give birth of a child and she has to suffer all the pains thereof, then where is the equal right? Where is equal right? Nature has said, "You must suffer." The husband, the so-called husband, will give birth, er, will utilize you for sex satisfaction, and you will be pregnant, and he will go away and you will suffer the whole life to maintain the child, welfare-"Give me some money"*-or this or that. Where is equal right? He is free. He has gone away. Huh? This is general experience in the Western countries. Brahmānanda: "Unwed mothers." Prabhupāda: Yes. And she cannot also check that "I shall not become mother." For sex appetite she will agree, and the man will go away and she will suffer. Is that civilization? Brahmānanda: Each year there are over one million abortions. Prabhupāda: Hm? Brahmānanda: In America there are over one million abortions. Prabhupāda: And they are advanced. They are proud of their being advanced. And they will not suffer? So we are trying to save the whole human society from rascaldom. That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You see? This is nīm tree. There is many nīm trees. If they kindly accept and follow this movement they will be happy. Otherwise they are doomed. Let them suffer. What can I do? Thorough overhauling. Kartikeya: Small pond they have made, fill up with water. Brahmānanda: Woman carrying a water jug. Prabhupāda: Oh. What the women answer about this pregnancy, that the man enjoys her and he goes away? Brahmānanda: They resent it. Prabhupāda: Then why do you accept? Why do you agree? Brahmānanda: Well, more and more now the women are not having sex with men anymore. They're having sex with other women. Prabhupāda: Then the population will stop? Will the population stop anymore? Then where is the proof? Just see how foolishness. Harikeśa: Sometimes they argue that only a small... *Prabhupāda: This is argument. This is argument, that it is not fact. Let them... Women has agreed not to have sex with man. Then close all these maternity hospitals. That is the only happiness. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukha hi tuccham. The husband and wife, they, I mean to say, mix together only for this, especially in this age. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. They get married only for sex pleasure, not for any other purpose. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. Otherwise the purpose is husband and wife together, they will worship Laksmi-Narayana and become perfect. That is the description given in Puṁsavana. You will get the statement there how the husband and wife is advised to worship Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣm-Nārāyaṇa. Therefore you will find in Hindu culture, every family, Lakṣm-Nārāyaṇa worship, the husband and wife. Still there are, there is some glimpse of human civilization in India. So we can revive it. In Bhogilal's house there is no dog. Kartikeya: No, no dog. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Otherwise, in modern civilization, such a nice house without a dog is incomplete. Kartikeya: He doesn't believe in it. Prabhupāda: Is it not? Yes. There must be a ferocious dog. Then it is complete. I saw in one house in Bombay, Mr. Gupta. He has kept half a dozen big, big dogs. He's a very big man in the iron market. Indian: Yes. Prabhupāda: You know him? Kartikeya: No, we sometimes meet when we... Meetings are there. Prabhupāda: We shall go or turn? Harikeśa: Maybe we can go back to the park again. Prabhupāda: In the European parks they do not allow to sit down on the grass. Do you know that? Kartikeya: Yes. Prabhupāda: In Paris I was trying to sit down on the grass floor. Immediately some policeman, "You cannot sit here." Bench. You can sit down on the bench. So here we think we can sit down little, eh? Indian man (1): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) There? [break] Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] ...tamarind tree? Kartikeya: Acacia. Prabhupāda: Acacia. Gum. Kartikeya: Gum. These are like nimka.(?) Prabhupāda: Tamarind. Kartikeya: Tamarind. Prabhupāda: [break] ...saṁskāra means education. Saṁskāra means education. [break] Kartikeya: No water. Prabhupāda: Why? Kartikeya: Unless the government want, and they know... [break] Prabhupāda: ...There is scarcity of water in Gujarat. Kartikeya: Yes. Except Surat. Surat has no problem. Narmad is there. Prabhupāda: No, here is also the river, Savarmati. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Kartikeya: Here is Mr. Bhagwati. He's... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, he is our old friend. Mr. Bhagwati: (Hindi) Kartikeya: He has come yesterday. Today also program is there. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. He has got his house, Nara... Kartikeya: Narampura. (?) Prabhupāda: Narampura. [break] United Bank, there was one Bengali manager, maybe Mr. Chatterjee. Kartikeya: In Ahmedabad? Prabhupāda: Hm. He's our good friend. Kartikeya: You must have met last time? Prabhupāda: No, before that. Kartikeya: But he must be transferred, I think. Normally they are having the transfer. Prabhupāda: You can inquire it. Kartikeya: Chatterjee. Prabhupāda: Chatterjee and Mukherjee. Maybe Chatterjee, Bengali. So if he is there, you can say that "Bhaktivedanta Swami wants to see you." Kartikeya: Correct. But can they not come at the function? (Hindi to person they meet) (relating answer to Prabhupāda:) He says some friends are coming at some time, so can you meet them? We can just go back and if you want to walk or something? Prabhupāda: No, no more. Kartikeya: O.K. (Hindi to someone) Because we are coming every day morning. The park opens at six o'clock, I think. This park opens at six. (to Prabhupāda:) They form a club in the park when they come in the morning. They have morning party or talking. Otherwise they can't meet during the day. Somebody's a doctor, somebody's... [break] Prabhupāda: We can meet if they give us time. Kartikeya: Tomorrow we shall. If we start little late, we can meet at seven. [break] Lot of parrots. Millions of them. Prabhupāda: No, as there, in India at least. Kartikeya: No, here they've got more greenery, more trees. More agriculture is around. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They're taken care of. [break] This Vasu is a Bengali... Kartikeya: R. Vasu. Prabhupāda: What is he? Kartikeya: He's a municipal commissioner. Prabhupāda: Oh, I.A... I.A., yes, government officer. [break] ...from government side? Kartikeya: Government side. There is no mayor in Ahmedabad now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Why? Kartikeya: There is some difficulty, so they have abolished the post for the moment. Prabhupāda: No post is required. Kartikeya: Only for applying the people. *Prabhupāda: Simply it is prize post. Nobody does anything. Simply they draw salary. All these ministers, they do nothing. Just like Indira Gandhi is supposed to be very big plan*-maker. So what she has done for the people? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) Harikeśa: Whenever we have to go to a government office, there are six men sitting, and only one is doing work, and all are getting salaries. Prabhupāda: Yes. Last time we stayed where? Nearby? Kartikeya: Mehtabhai Patel's. It is a little bit away from this place, only one mile from here. That Dr. Patel and another Dr. Patel is there. *Prabhupāda: His father*-in-law? *Kartikeya: Father*-in-law. P.M. Patel. [break] They were trying to arrange if you'll come. [break] Girirāja: One boy said he wants to join. Prabhupāda: Yes, they should join. All will go to hell. That is not good. At least one or two may be saved. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Passerby: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Rāma. *Prabhupāda: Jaya. Viśatā tamiśram. Adānta*-gobhir viśatā tamiśram. When we say that they'll go to hell, it is not our manufacture. The śāstra says. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- September 26, 1975, Ahmedabad Prabhupāda: ...position is if you can get a bungalow like this, and two cars, good wife, then life is successful. Is it not? Kartikeya: Yes. Prabhupāda: "Never mind I am going to be a dog next life." Kartikeya: They are not knowing anything today. They continue to live as it is. *Prabhupāda: Śreyaḥ, preyaḥ, immediate. This is Western civilization. Tathā dehāntara*-praptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. (Hindi) In the material world, even in the position of Indra, king of heaven, he has got also so many problems. Is there any temple? Kartikeya: Yes. Śiva temple. Prabhupāda: Newly constructed? Kartikeya: No, it is quite old, but they go on adding small buildings for the public hall and all those. Suppose you have to have some program. They can give us a hall for marriage and for... Harikeśa: This is where we had the paṇḍāl in 1972? Kartikeya: No, it was a little bit on the other side. It was very near to this place. Harikeśa: Stayed in Nasi? (?) Kartikeya: Ah, you stayed here. Prabhupāda: We shall go this way? Kartikeya: You can go in the garden. Prabhupāda: [break] He is going out of station? [break] ...such parks as in America. Kartikeya: No. They are going out *Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...erly kept. [break] This is the condition of every city. In America also this. This is artificial living. It cannot go on very nicely. [break] ...description of nice city in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, but we don't get any information of municipality. And big, big lakes in the city. Brahmānanda: Nice parks. Prabhupāda: Park and lake. [break] ...if Upendra comes, he will do? Yaśomatīnandana: I was just thinking that he might only change his visa. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He could get an extension. For every American, for three*-month visa, then you apply for an extension. You can stay for maximum of six months. But then we can replace as more devotees come. Rūpānuga wrote that ten devotees are on the way from America. As more devotees come, then we can replace. Yaśomatīnandana: In India... Prabhupāda: Hm? Yaśomatīnandana: Upendra has come to India only for a few months, so it might take a little while to get used to situation here. And some boys are here who are already two, three years in India. They know how to do it. And again, if he has to go in a few months... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very difficult at the moment, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If we have that choice, then I humbly say we not open the Ahmedabad temple now because... At other temples, like Calcutta, which have (unclear) and which are in a very critical situation because I haven't given them any men... Prabhupāda: [break] You require one man to your selection. So nobody will stay. Everyone has to go. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... [break] The Ahmedabad people cannot maintain this park. How they will maintain their center? And you are not making good life members? Then? Yaśomatīnandana: These are only few days that they have started making... Last time we came they made eight members in five weeks. Prabhupāda: Members are made after the festival. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (unclear) Yaśomatīnandana: My point is this, that people are very attracted to foreigners. If there is one good foreigner, then they will be attracted. Prabhupāda: Then why do you discriminate, this foreigner to that foreigner? Yaśomatīnandana: I don't mind anybody. Whatever you say is all right. But I was just thinking like this because if somebody's going to come for a month, two months, then go, he might not put his heart. Prabhupāda: That is the position of everyone. When they will go away, there is no certainty. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma... Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) You are student? You are student? Somebody suggested some meeting here? Yesterday. Kartikeya: No, that gentleman was there at seven o'clock. Harikeśa: That man passed us and just kept on walking with his friends. Just when we were coming here, the same man just kept on walking. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Gerau? Gerau? What is that Gerau? Gerau? You know Gerau? Naxalite? Indian man (2): These are all important things. It is not in our concept. Even a small man, from the starvation, can stay in a hut, inside a bungalow. There the people are making delicious food. They'll starve and die. How? Because they won't give (unclear). It is not because they are taught by some gurus or... Not like that. They are themselves (unclear) Indian man (3): Good and bad go together. Indian man (2): These are other things. Indian man (3): It is everywhere. Indian man (2): But I am talking of good only. Indian man (3): Satya... (Hindi) Prabhupāda: [break] ...is not God? Indian man (3): Lord Kṛṣṇa is not God. Indian man (2): According to him. Indian man (3): Lord Kṛṣṇa was the greatest man ever born. He was not God. *Indian man (2): You see, he has got the principles of Ārya*-samāj. Because he is... "Everybody is God." That is his... They are brainwashed. Brainwash is there. Prabhupāda: What is God? Let us have, understand. Indian man (3): God has no form. Prabhupāda: Why? Indian man (3): Why? Because that is a principle. Prabhupāda: Why? Indian man (3): That's the principle. Prabhupāda: That is your principle. Indian man (3): He has given all the principles and these principles they taught us... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You say God has no form. Indian man (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: That is your principle, not others'. You cannot say that is the principle. That is your principle. Indian man (3): But, sir, there are certain principles laid down. Prabhupāda: What is that? Indian man (3): And He Himself also cannot break those principles. Prabhupāda: What is this principle? You have got form, and God has no form? Indian man (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: What God has done, fault? Indian man (3): If He will take form, then He is just a... Prabhupāda: That is your word. Indian man (2): That is what we are. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is your word. Indian man (2): According to philosophy. It is not my philosophy... Prabhupāda: Yes, it is your philosophy. Indian man (2): It is not my philosophy. Prabhupāda: Because just like you say, "God has no form," we say, "God has form." That is your philosophy. Indian man (3): Then we have to find out. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then we have to discuss whether God has form or no form. That will be philosophy. That will be philosophy. If you say, "God has no form," if I say, "God has form," then I don't fol... *Indian man (3): God is sarva*-vyāpaka. He cannot be sarva-vyāpaka if He takes form. *Prabhupāda: No, that is your thinking. You do not know what is meant by sarva*-vyāpaka. *Indian man (4): Sarva*-vyāpaka means everywhere *Prabhupāda: That you do not know how... Just like the sun is sarva*-vyāpaka. Is it not? Indian man (3): What is that? Prabhupāda: Sun, the sunshine, yes, it is... We call now it is day. Just hear. This is day because the sunlight is there. At night we don't say it is day. Is it not? Indian man (3): "We" means actually... Prabhupāda: Any of... Every one of us. Indian man (3): When we don't see, then we say that it is not there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Indian man (3): Sun is not... Sun, of course, is there, but light is not there. Prabhupāda: Hear. The light... As soon as the light is there, you understand the sun is there. Is it not? Indian man (3): Yes, sun is there. *Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the light is coming? From the sun. But you see the sun has form. So from the form the light is coming. So the light is sarva*-vyāpaka *Indian man (3): If it is sarva*-vyāpaka... *Prabhupāda: Let me finish. Light is sarva*-vyāpaka. Indian man (3): But if there is some obstruction, then it cannot... Prabhupāda: We have no question of obstruction. Even there is obstruction... Indian man (2): Obstruction will be by you only. Indian man (3): Not by me only. (laughter) No, not by me. Indian man (2): What is the independence mean? You can go up to Him. Prabhupāda: Just see. Light is there. If you close your eyes there is no light. That is another thing. But light is there. Everyone understand now it is day. Indian man (3): That light is from God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): Sun has no... Indian man (2): Let him finish. *Prabhupāda: Let me finish. Your "God has no form"*-I am trying to explain to that. Now, you say, your reason, the sarva-vyāpaka. Sarva-vyāpaka, I am giving this example. The sunlight is sarva-vyāpaka, but wherefrom the sunlight is coming, it has got a form. So the sarva-vyāpaka, that energy is there. That is called Brahman. That is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (3): But what is that sun? *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is example. It is example that this sarva*-vyāpaka-prakāśa is coming from the sun globe. So sun globe is localized. Everyone can see. And this prakāśa is coming from Him. Similarly, the sarva-vyāpaka energy is extended everywhere, but it is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (3): Coming, right. But that has no form. Prabhupāda: Why no form? You can see. Indian man (3): But you see the mat..., a material. Prabhupāda: It is a matter... You have no idea without matter. How you can say of spirit? You have no idea. Indian man (3): God is not matter. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you cannot... Indian man (3): This is not a direct... *Prabhupāda: You are accepting God is impersonal because He is sarva*-vyāpaka. Why? Sarva-vyāpaka... He can be... You are thinking in your own way, that you are sitting here; *you are not sarva*-vyāpaka. You are vyāpaka here only, so you are thinking God is like you. Indian man (3): No, I am not thinking like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your defect. Indian man (3): On the contrary, that is... Prabhupāda: Aiye aiye. That is your defect. You are comparing God with your existence. Indian man (3): I am not comparing with God. *Prabhupāda: Then... I am giving you example that instead of sun having form, he is sarva*-vyāpaka. That is my point. The sun and the sunlight is nondifferent. The sunlight is sarva-vyāpaka, but the sun is localized. That is my point. Indian man (3): Sun is localized, but what is sun, first of all? Sun is a creation of God. Yaśomatīnandana: He's giving an example. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. If creation of God can act like this, that it... Indian man (3): Creation of God means some matter. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Indian man (3): Now, God has no matter. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. You see, God... If creation of God can act like this, that he is localized, at the same time he is sarva*-vyāpaka and God cannot be localized and sarva-vyāpaka? Indian man (3): How can God be localized? Prabhupāda: Then God is under your rule? Indian man (3): No, sir. Not under my rule. It is His rule that He... *Prabhupāda: No, no. We can see the creation of God. It is localized, at the same time sarva*-vyāpaka. And God, according to him, cannot be localized. He is simply sarva-vyāpaka. Why? Why? The creator can create something that he is localized, at the same time sarva-vyāpaka, and the creator cannot be localized and at the same time sarva-vyāpaka? Indian man (3): Sir, if there is... Prabhupāda: No, first of all let us settle this. Indian man (2): First of all let us settle this one thing *Prabhupāda: Settle this. I create something which has got so power that it is localized, at the same time sarva*-vyāpaka. And I myself, I cannot be sarva-vyāpaka. What is this logic? Indian man (3): The sun rays are not actually... When there is hindrance, it cannot be on the other side. Prabhupāda: No, hin... There is question of hindrance. I am seeing as it is. That is another thing. Indian man (2): Hindrance is already there, as I described before. (laughter) Swamijī, my request is that the world is divided into two main things. One, some people believe, a group, believe that world is formless. Some say world has got a form. So instead of entering to this controversy, why we should not agree that whatever you...? Prabhupāda: No, this is not controversy. This is fact, that God is... That is... We learn from śāstra, Indian man (4): Swamiji, I want to question whether the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the same type of consciousness which is experienced by the devotees as that divine type of consciousness. Is it a divine consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness means divine. Kṛṣṇa means divine. Kṛṣṇa means divine. Indian man (4): So that is the same. Prabhupāda: But foolish people think Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. Only mūḍhas take Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is always His complete spirit. Indian man (4): We like His smiling face too much, Lord Kṛṣṇa's smiling face, always smiling. All forms of God we have seen, but His... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is always smiling because Kṛṣṇa is ānandamayo abhyāsāt. That is the feature of God. He is ānandamaya. Indian man (4): But (unclear) even in *Mahābhārata* at the time of chariot, while sitting on the chariot of Arjuna, He was always smiling. There was a lot of battle going on, but He never lost His... Prabhupāda: Temper. Indian man (4): Temper. Indian man (5): Yes. How do you think about somebody in last few days defeated the existence of *Mahābhārata* itself? They say it is a... Prabhupāda: Who is that man? Indian man (4): They may, they may. Prabhupāda: He has defeated? Indian man (5): No, if they say that "There was nothing like *Mahābhārata*," you tell. Indian man (3): They may say, but... Prabhupāda: The foolish man can say anything. (Hindi) How he becomes more than all the ācāryas, this rascal? Indian man (5): My question is... Prabhupāda: Your question is that he has proved. What he has proved? Indian man (5): No, no. His point of saying is that... Prabhupāda: Whatever he says, he is saying nonsense. That's it. Indian man (5): No, no, the point is that it is a story to teach people the rules and regulations of war. He wrote... It is a hypothesis during which the people are taught the morals of the life. No such war actually existed. There is already... Prabhupāda: That is his foolishness. He's a rascal. Indian man (2): But we have seen a person rejecting his own father: "My father was also (unclear)." Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore a rascal can say like that. A rascal can say like that. Indian man (2): Somebody said that "No, my mother's name should come after my name, or father's name." *Prabhupāda: Mūḍha. Therefore they have been called mūḍhas. Na mā duṣkṛtino mūḍhā prapadyante narādhamāḥ. They have been described in the Bhagavad*-gītā as duṣkṛtinaḥ. First of all they are very, very sinful. They have got merit, but sinful merit, duṣkṛtinaḥ. Kṛti means meritorious, but duḥ, duṣkṛtina. So on account of their [being] duṣkṛtinaḥ they are mūḍhas. They cannot understand what is scripture, what is God, what is Kṛṣṇa. They cannot understand. It is not possible. Indian man (3): Yes, I at least understand what is God. Prabhupāda: You want to save yourself. Indian man (2): His definition is different, absolutely. According to his... Prabhupāda: No, God cannot be defined differently. God is one. Indian man (2): But can God be defined? We haven't got a definition of God. I challenge you. Indian man (3): (Hindi) Indian man (2): You cannot. Intellectually, you cannot analyse things. *Prabhupāda: No, intellectual level you can. That is definition of God. Ṣaḍ*-aiśvarya-pūrṇa. Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya... Parāśara Muni has given. That is God just like you try to understand one thing. We have got some experience that there is a rich man, but that rich man cannot say that "I am the richest man in the world." That he cannot say. So this richness is one opulence, but you cannot find anyone who can say that "I am the richest man." That is not possible. But if you find somebody who can say like that, and if he proves, then he is God. Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya. That Kṛṣṇa says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram: [Bg. 5.29] "I am the proprietor of everything," that Kṛṣṇa says. And He proved when He was present. He proved it. So therefore He is God. Indian man (2): I say, in foreign countries, Swamijī, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading. Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot see? Indian man (2): Yes, we want to know from Your Holiness... Prabhupāda: You cannot see? Who are they if they are not... Indian man (2): Yes, yes, yes. We are very much... We take a pride. Actually we take a pride that Your Holiness like you had gone for America and the world and spread our message of our Indian philosophy. We are very much proud about it. Though we do not give much response to your mission here or in India because it's our home. Home is for the neighbor only(?). That is the difficulty. Tulsi das has written (Hindi). Swami Vivekananda went there, and he was honored there, and thereafter our people honored him because other people honored him. Prabhupāda: All right. Let us go. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just... (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [Break] (Hindi conversation) Kartikeya: We have not seen father. Prabhupāda: You have not seen. Kartikeya: The body is not father, and what is father, what is in the father, we have never seen. Prabhupāda: That you have not seen. You have no eyes to see. Kartikeya: I have not seen my father. Even I have not seen myself. I see my hand. When you say "I see my hand," I see my body, but have I seen my self? Indian man (2): He is my friend. He is my friend Mr. Urbana, and he is an architect, prominent architect in Gujarat, eh? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Indian man (2): He's a first*-class..., but he is, his brain is influenced by Ārya-samāj, Ārya-samāj. (laughter) So I say Ārya-samājīs are muscular body. Bodies are muscular, so their brain is also muscular. They are not going to accept any idea except that thing which they have already there in the brain. (laughter) Indian man (3): No, no, no. It is not that way. We want to accept everything that... (Hindi) Indian man (2): Praṇām, praṇām, (Hindi) praṇām. Kartikeya: Do you believe in the *Vedas*? Indian man (5): Yes, we believe in *Vedas*. Kartikeya: Who gave *Vedas*? Indian man (3): Īśvara. Kartikeya: Who is that? Indian man (3): God. God. Kartikeya: No, without a personality nobody can write. You cannot write your signature without a body. Indian man (3): How did you get your actually words? From where? From where did you get your words? Kartikeya: Well, I have got my body, so I can speak with my body. I cannot speak without my body. Indian man (5): At that time He acted like a magician, that God. How can He reduce it into writing? Prabhupāda: Bhagavān, original Absolute Truth... (Hindi) Janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "The Absolute Truth is that from whom or from which everything emanates." (Hindi) Everything is manufactured, everything. Now, that original source... Indian man (3): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Indian man (3): There are three things: jīvātmā, Paramātmā or prakṛti. (Hindi) Who is not connected with anything, He is, simply is a guide. He guides. Prabhupāda: So formless guidance... (Hindi)? Indian man (3): Formless guidance, Īśvara... (Hindi) Indian man (2): If you want a guidance, then you have to become formless. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. You are talking. You are not formless. You are giving us guidance, you are talking, but you are not formless. Indian man (3): Guidance I am not giving. It is guidance of God. It is given by God. It is given by God. Prabhupāda: No, no. How? No, no. If guidance cannot be given by a formless... Indian man (3): I am a medium simply. The guidance is given by God. That is through *Vedas*. Prabhupāda: These are contradictory. You are talking something, you are form, and you say the original talker is formless. How it is possible? Kartikeya: Sir, you are building building. There is no architect? How in the building there are no architects? Anything that is made must have got an architect or... Whole universe is there Indian man (3): But none of us... I believe that there is God. Kartikeya: No, no, but why don't you give a body? Indian man (3): But why do you give Him a form, actually? Kartikeya: Because we have got forms. He has got form. Indian man (3): Just because you have got form, He must also have a form? Kartikeya: Yes, because we are His reflection; we are His particles. Indian man (3): No, no, no. We are not His particles. I say it is not... Prabhupāda: No, no, where you get this idea that formless can give guidance? Where do you get this idea? Where is your experience? Your experience is as soon as there is guidance, there is a form. So how do you get this expe... Why do you talk something which is not within your experience, nobody's experience? As soon as you talk of guidance, there is form. Indian man (3): But what is air? Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all answer this. Why do you get this idea that a guidance comes from formless? Just like this government. We do not see that the guidance coming from the sky. There is Indira Gandhi; there is minister. Indian man (3): But these are all in the material world. Prabhupāda: So how do you say that guidance is coming from formless? Because you have no such experience, why do you say something which is not within your experience? Indian man (3): So whatever we experience should be... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise you cannot talk. If you cannot say anything which is not within your experience, then what is the meaning of that talk? Indian man (2): Even if there is no form, we have to create a form. Indian man (3): But why? Indian man (2): Just to have our faith in that form. Indian man (3): Now, actually, when you pray God actually, do you open your eyes or do you close your eyes? What do you do? Indian man (2): We close our eyes. We also... Indian man (3): Why do you close the eyes? Prabhupāda: No, we don't close. We are going to see God in the temple, so we don't close. You close, and therefore you cannot understand. We see in eye to eye. (laughter) Indian man (3): So He is only in that particular place. He cannot be everywhere. Prabhupāda: No, He is everywhere. But you say, "He is everywhere, but He is not there." That is your idea. You say... Indian man (3): No, no, no, sir. No, sir. He is everywhere. He is throughout. Prabhupāda: Then why not in the temple? Indian man (3): He is everywhere, I say. He is everywhere. Prabhupāda: Then you are in the... He's in temple. Then why do you say He is not in the temple? Indian man (3): But who says? Prabhupāda: You say. Indian man (3): I don't say that. Not that only. Not that only. Prabhupāda: If He is everywhere, why He is not in the temple? Indian man (3): But not in that form. Prabhupāda: That is your version. (laughter) That is your version. Harikeśa: Then there is somewhere where He is not. Indian man (3): No, no. I say... No, no, no. Somewhere... He is everywhere. Yaśomatīnandana: He is a mūrti also. Indian man (3): Everywhere. But He is not that mūrti. He is not that mūrti. Prabhupāda: That is your version. But we are not so fool that we are going to see something which is not God. We are not so fool. Indian man (3): Well, then, your opinion may be different. My opinion is quite different. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another thing. But when we go to see God in the temple, we see God, nothing else. That experience you haven't got. Indian man (3): Mūrti, simply that mūrti? Nothing else. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... Indian man (2): The confirmation you haven't got at the present moment. Thereafter you will get a realization, afterwards. (laughter) [break] Indian man (2): And about forty people are here all over, coming since about fifteen years, or twenty years. Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He entered Jagannātha temple, He immediately fainted: "Oh, here is my Lord." So it is the question of seeing. Indian man (6): But what is our inner things? How we know it? In our classical music, actually Lord Kṛṣṇa is the main figure in all... In even Muslim classical music, they also pray Lord Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. We have to create our eyes to see. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (7): [break] ...unless there is a good center. Mr. Marya said that you are going to have one here. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Indian man (8): If... We'll get continuous advantage of your preaching, sir. Prabhupāda: Yes. (loud car noise) Indian man (7): And I think that it is badly needed. Indian man (8): [break] That gentleman whispered in my ear, that "I am mūḍha" he said. And I said, "Yes, you are a mūḍha." (laughter) Prabhupāda: He confirmed it. That he is. Indian man (8): But he said that "I am a rākṣasa, maybe. Of course, you are like that." Prabhupāda: Then anyone. Why he is alone? Anyone. Indian man (8): No, he claims that "I am a mūḍha." "Yes," I said, "you are." When he questioned, I have to reply. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (8) : Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- September 27, 1975, Ahmedabad Prabhupāda: ...here? *Kartikeya: There are many small parks, but biggest park is here. One is at Kakaiya(?), near the lake. That old lake is... A five*-hundred-(year)-old lake is there. Prabhupāda: This is supposed to be the biggest. Kartikeya: Because here people are only after money, so they are not care to give charity for any park when it is (unclear). There is no private charity. Prabhupāda: It is the duty of the municipality. [break] ...program? Madhudviṣa: The whole thing was completely packed. Prabhupāda: Who spoke? Devotee (1): Acyutānanda Mahārāja. Kartikeya: In Hindi. Prabhupāda: In Hindi? Kartikeya: For more than one hour. Harikeśa: In Hindi? *Kartikeya: Yes. One hour he spoke. About ten percent English words, twenty*-five percent Sanskrit, and rest in Hindi. Devotee (1): He spoke very nice. Kartikeya: People were very happy, and they could understand. Prabhupāda: Philosophy was presented nice? Madhudviṣa: Yes. Very nice. Prabhupāda: You spoke? No. Madhudviṣa: I spoke also, ten, fifteen minutes in the beginning. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: [break] (Hindi) ...kīrtana viṣṇoḥ, about Viṣṇu, not nonsense. [break] ...speak in Hindi, they will hear more. Kartikeya: Yes, they like it. Prabhupāda: You cannot speak Hindi? Girirāja: I can't give discourses. Kartikeya: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) "Yes, no, very good." You know this story, "Yes, no, very good"? No? There was one kansamar(?). So he was to go home, so he asked his friend that "So long I am not here, you serve European master." So he said, "I do not know English. How can I serve him?" "No, no, no. These three words will do: 'yes, no, very good.' " Then he was engaged. (laughs) Then one day from the master's room something was missing. So he asked the new servant, "You have taken it?" "Yes." (laughter) Then he asked him, "Return it." "No." (laughter) "Oh, then I shall hand you over to the police." "Very good." (laughter) Then when the police came, he was won..., "Sir, what is this? You have...?" "No, I do not know this." Then he was explained, that "I understand these three words only: 'yes, no, very good.' " That's all. Devotee (2): It's very wet. Prabhupāda: Let us walk little more. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Oh, yes, it is very wet. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything will come out very good. But the rascals will not do that. That is the difficulty. They will make plan. (aside:) Which way? Kṛṣṇa's plan they will not take. That is the difficulty. Kartikeya: Is it because the leaders are not following? Therefore the population is not following? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kartikeya: The wrong example is given. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. The leaders are rascals, therefore they are rascals. The father is rascal; *the son is rascal. Therefore Bhāgavata says that "If you are a rascal, don't become a father." Pit na sa syāt, na mocayed ya samupeta*-mṛtyum. "If you are a rascal, don't become a mother." Stop population. They have therefore invented, "Yes, we shall become 'bachelor father,' 'bachelor daddy,' " not actual father but "bachelor father." Here woman at least think nowadays that she must have a husband. In Western countries they don't think. "No, there is no need of husband." Am I right? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: They don't think there is need of husband. Eh? But they feel. That I know. I have seen one girl. She saw another friend, "Oh, she has got a husband," whispering. So I can understand that everyone aspires after husband, but there is no hope. Hopelessness. This is the position. Every woman wants a good husband, good home, good children, little ornaments, nice food. That is the ambition of every woman, but they are hopeless. Although they are well qualified, European, American girls, they are hopeless, not to get any husband, not to get any home. This is their position. I have studied thoroughly. Is it not? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hopelessness. When we see in our association all these girls. They are so nicely, well qualified. Whatever they are taught, they immediately pick up. Kartikeya: In America they were asking my wife how Indian women are able to keep such devotion for their husbands. So they are actually very much interested and envious of this situation in India. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the nature. That is... They want to be a faithful wife, but there is no husband. Where to become faithful? Harikeśa: So then they want to become liberated. Prabhupāda: Yes. Being hopeless repeatedly, now they want liberation. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] Jaya. [break] ...samājīs? *Kartikeya: There are many. They fight with us. Over in office, when they come, they speak such ill words about many of our religious leaders and God. They are so much brainwashed, completely brainwashed. They call themselves Hindus, but they do not want to follow any God, only brahma*-tattva or Brahman. They believe in the Vedas... Madhudviṣa: Actually they are atheists. Prabhupāda: Nāstika. Madhudviṣa: Like Vivekananda. Kartikeya: That man said they have muscular body and they have muscular mind. That man was very much correct, absolutely. Prabhupāda: [break] Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (3): We have got our Punjābī samāj. We have got our building and some two, three years back when you people come, there was one meeting over there. So we wish that this year also, if you spare some time, which time can be suitable to you. You are already booked for Rajasthan? After that are you staying here? Prabhupāda: No. So when you can arrange meeting? Indian man (3): When it is convenient to you. Today, tomorrow. Can it be tomorrow evening? No. Brahmānanda(?): Tomorrow morning we are leaving. Indian man (3): Tomorrow morning you are? Brahmānanda: We are leaving. Indian man (3): You are leaving tomorrow morning? Only today you have got time? Prabhupāda: Yes, today I can see. Indian man (3): Today in the evening you are at Rajasthan's house? *Prabhupāda: Rajashtan*-seva. Yaśomatīnandana: Our festival is to be held at Sai Baba. (?) Indian man (4): From seven to ten. Prabhupāda: So I have to go there? Yaśomatīnandana: If you wish. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yaśomatīnandana: There is going to be a lot of people there. Prabhupāda: All right. What time? Seven to ten. Indian man (3): Seven to ten you are at Rajasthan's house. Prabhupāda: So before that, we can go? Indian man (3): Before that, our merchants, they generally return from market at about 8:30 or 8. Tomorrow is Sunday. You are not free... You are leaving tomorrow. Kartikeya: He is leaving by 8:30. Prabhupāda: Tomorrow morning? Indian man (3): Tomorrow morning you are leaving. Prabhupāda: Yes, so tomorrow morning, if you are arrange, we can leave some other time. Tomorrow morning. Indian man (3): So you can postpone your going tomorrow? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tomorrow morning, if you can, then we can go in the evening. No? Girirāja: There's a flight at 4:30, but I think some of the... We informed the devotees you were coming, and I think many important people might be coming Sunday evening to meet you. Prabhupāda: Oh. All right. Then what can be done? Harikeśa: Maybe they can come to the paṇḍāl. Indian man (5): It may be possible. Girirāja: So next time. Prabhupāda: Yes, next. Indian man (6): Next time. When next you could come? Prabhupāda: Yes, after a month. Yaśomatīnandana: We will be here. Some of our disciples will be here, so you can... Indian man (6): Where we can find them? Kartikeya: We'll be there, at Ideal House(?). You can write down. They are residing there. All of them can come afterwards. Yaśomatīnandana: Only Guru Mahārāja and two, three other disciples are going. *Kartikeya: Two people are going. We are continuing the program even at Rajana*-samiti for three more days. At that time you can come in the afternoon. Indian man (6): So they are staying for one month. Kartikeya: Not one month, but I want to be at least one more week. Girirāja: I think tomorrow would be the best day for a group of devotees to come. Prabhupāda: [break] ...sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā, amānin mānadena kīrtanīya sad hariḥ. This is the process to become very humble. Indian man (5): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Hindi) (Hindi) To become humble, this is a qualification. (Hindi) This humbleness is a good qualification. (Hindi conversation) Detroit, I saw that bridge. There is barrier? Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: San Diego. Brahmānanda: San Diego. Prabhupāda: San Diego. (Hindi) Or I saw I the Berkeley also, that tower? Brahmānanda: Glass is there. Prabhupāda: Glass there. So (Hindi) suicide... (Hindi conversation) You want immediately to become like America. (Hindi) Indian man (7): Should we go back to the bullock cart age? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly. Then you will be sukhī. (Hindi) This is the first instruction: dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. (Hindi) This is the first instruction. (Hindi) This is the first to be given up in order to understand spiritual knowledge. (Hindi) So how you can expect tranquillity and peacefulness if the society is conducted by go-khara? This is the defect. (Hindi) This is the rule, nature's law. And if it is a fact... It is a fact. You believe or not believe; *that is a different thing. (Hindi) Professor Kotovsky... [break] "Swamiji, after death, everything is finished." He said like that. And he is a big professor of Indology. (Hindi) ...sa eva go*-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. He is a professor. (Hindi) Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Kartikeya: Now their own president is not free from danger. Every day shooting is going on. (end) Morning Walk -- September 29, 1975, Ahmedabad Kartikeya: The outside or garden may not be open... Brahmānanda: Park gate is closed. Kartikeya: We can walk on the road. Prabhupāda: All right. When it is open? Kartikeya: Normally six. [break] *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...mandāḥ, all bad men. Mandā sumanda*-matayaḥ. And if he is supposed to be a good man, he will manufacture some mata, manda-mata, not approved by the śāstras. This is going on. They will not hear Kṛṣṇa. They will give quotation from Brahma-kumārī. This is the greatest defect of modern civilization, that they won't accept real authority. They will create some authority. Or rascal, he becomes authority. Especially in India, this is the drawback. In the Western countries they do not know much about this. Therefore they accept what I say. But here they bring so many. So such an important man, he is bringing authority, Brahma-kumārī, a house of prostitution. If he is bringing their quotation as authority, then what to speak of others? [break] Just like that Christian convent house. They supply woman to rich men, and they supply money. That's all. This is Brahma-kumārī. Rich man, the same disease is there-yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukha hi tuccham. So if they get facility for some maithuna, they will give you money. (Hindi) ...prostitute, for convent house. Hm? Brahmānanda? Convent house? What is that convent house? It is not prostitution? That's all. Brahmānanda: Usually it's between the priests and the nuns. Prabhupāda: Unless one is actually spiritually situated, this material center of happiness, maithunādi, that will go anywhere. You give any color, spiritual or religious or political. You see? Why Gandhi's āśrama failed? Do you know that? This is... When Gandhi was in jail, when he came back he saw all pregnant. You did not know that? Kartikeya: No, we imagined, but we don't have information. Prabhupāda: That what... Gandhi said, "What is this āśrama?" Indian man (1): No, but Gandhi... He is well known, very well known. Prabhupāda: He is well known. Indian man (1): Including mother Desai and all, there were lot of complaints and countercomplaints. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It cannot be. You cannot stop the sex unless you are fully in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not possible. And that is the material bondage. In the material prisonhouse they have got so many means*-big, big walls, handcuff, chain-but nature is so perfect that simply give you a beautiful woman, and you are all prisoner. Big wall, handcuff and chain-everything is complete. I think I have discussed in my recent purports. Harikeśa: Oh, yes, yes. Indian man (2): Even in case of mother Desai, it was a classic incident, that his wife came one day to Gandhiji, that "This man is your personal writer but he is going on with another woman in your camp." Prabhupāda: There are so many. Indian man (2): "And he comes only because of that woman. Otherwise he is not willing to be your personal writer. So I have complained." Then Gandhiji said, "All right, when did you know it?" So she said, "I was thinking for the three months, but fifteen days before I came." "All right, Mahadeva, you come here. You will fast for fifteen days." And one week later (indistinct) Mahadeva Desai was that he wanted food very badly. So after seven days he was about to die. Then that woman, wife, came again, "Mahārāja I made a mistake. I made a complaint. All right. But now this man will die and where I will go?" (indistinct) "Then why have you made a complaint? So you can take off for seven days but you fast for seven days." So he is relieved. *Prabhupāda: One*-there are so many cases. This Lilavati Munshi, this is the same thing. You know that? There is a big history behind this. Kartikeya: The failures are due to some basic reason. All the big people have failed, and they have not been able to deliver the country or anything because their moral character... Prabhupāda: No, no, even they have delivered the country, these physical elements you cannot avoid. You cannot avoid unless you are on the transcendental platform, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long you are on the physical platform, you cannot avoid. It is impossible. (Hindi) Gandhiji... (Hindi)... mistake. (Hindi) "And physical? Oh, you have done this? Fifteen days fasting." Indian man (1): What is alternative? What do you do when... *Prabhupāda: No, no, alternative, that alternative will not correct. That is the defect of Gandhi's movement. He is supposed to be reading Bhagavad*-gītā, but he has never said, recommended, Kṛṣṇa worship. That is the defect of his education. Rather, he denied the existence of Kṛṣṇa. "I don't believe if any person as Kṛṣṇa ever lived." This is his concept. Gandhi has written in his life that while his father was dying he was enjoying sex with his wife. You know that? Indian man (2): Gandhiji? Prabhupāda: Yes, he has written it. Indian man (1): It is, after all, only... Prabhupāda: No, no. After, he became a great sage. That is all right. But in the beginning everyone is subjected. Which way we shall... Kartikeya: We can go straight. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Brahmānanda, you just take an idea. We shall construct Gurukula in this pattern. Brahmānanda: This building here, double story. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Exactly. Double or three*-storied. Kartikeya: Most simple type. Prabhupāda: Very simple type, very nice. Just get a sketch with your work. This will be done like that. Brahmānanda: I'll ask Bhārgava. He has his camera. He can take photographs. Prabhupāda: Yes. And downstairs, all shops. Only the roadside. Other side... Brahmānanda: Oh, no. That's the courtyard, and then other side, a building. [break] Bhavānanda: ...at the Gurukula best thing is outdoors classes. As soon as they're in rooms it gets too hot. Prabhupāda: As far as possible, outdoors. Bhavānanda: Best place in Māyāpur is on the verandas of the big building. It's perfect. Prabhupāda: That is very nice. Brahmānanda: They have verandas on this building? Prabhupāda: Yes, there is veranda that side. Brahmānanda: On the inside or the outside? Prabhupāda: No. No. Inside. Outside closed. [break] ...no that reinforced concrete, all brick. This is all brick. (Hindi) You have got that brick manufacturing concern near? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Take as many bricks as you like. And we have got one address. You have taken, Agra, they will supply this lime. [break] (Hindi) ...rich men. Still, they are adulterating cement. (Hindi) [break] I heard it from very reliable source, my teacher. He was second teacher in my school, graduate, very good gentleman. He said that Edward VIII, er, VII, he was stealing jewels. You see? Indian man (3): A very bad habit. Prabhupāda: Emperor of British Empire, and he was a thief. Just see. Brahmānanda: You've said that a fly sitting on a throne is still a fly. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...one gentleman, young man, he was very rich man's son. He would come in the evening in the Howrah station nicely dressed and would approach any gentleman, "Sir, I am very sorry. I have lost my purse. Can you give me? Otherwise I cannot return." So he will collect five, ten rupees and go to a restaurant and eat and go home. [break] It is the second nature. Now the door is open? We can go? Kartikeya: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...enter. Not the cows. Indian man (4): Physical world, this earth is there. Are there any other earthly planets of this type where human beings or other beings are staying other than spiritual beings? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Indian man (4): Why the information is not given about that? Prabhupāda: Why not? In Bhāgavata there is all information. Indian man (4): About the other earthly planets also? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All, every each and every planet, Janaloka, Tapoloka, Maharloka, what kind of men are living there, what they are doing*-everything is there. Svargaloka. Indian man (4): But do they not come here sometimes to visit us or we cannot go there? *Prabhupāda: But you cannot see them. Your philosophy is unless you see, you don't believe. That is your philosophy. But you do not consider what you can see. That is the defect of this imperfect world, that people do not think that they are imperfect. With all imperfectness, they think they are perfect. That is the defect. Therefore it is said, andha. One is blind, and he is becoming the leader of other blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Īśa-tantrya, by the laws of nature he is bound up very tight, hands and legs, and he is thinking he is free to think, free to see, free to... That is the defect. He is not at all free, completely under the clutches of material laws, and he is thinking that he is free. That is the defect. And when this sense comes, that "I am not free; everything is forced upon me," then he becomes human being. Otherwise he's a dog. Just like, you see, if a dog thinks he is free. He is jumping here, there. He is thinking, "I am independent," barking, attacking somebody. Oh, he is thinking he is free to do everything. When one comes to this sense, that he is not free, that is beginning of human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Then the question will be that "Why I am not free? What is the reason?" Then that is... Real human life begins. Otherwise he's a dog. Is it correct or not? What do you think? If one is not free and wrongly thinks that he is free, then what is that mentality? A doggish mentality. And if I say, "Yes, you are free. You can think in any way you like. That is correct," then you become more encouraged to become, to remain a fool, to continue. That's all. So we shall go now? That is the defective part of modern civilization. Everyone is thinking, "I am free." Is it not? Everyone. Indian man (5): Yes. "I am perfect. I am like this." Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (5): He thinks who is living under the delusion. *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, Sixteenth Chapter. "I am..." Aḍhyo 'smi dhanavān asmi ko'sti mama samaḥ: "Who is there like me, intelligent? I will do this. I will do that." These are all... Indian man (5): Continues delusion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has imposed death, that "You may make your plan as free man, but you'll not be allowed to stay. I'll kick you out." These poor men, they did not think of it, that "I am making so nice plan, but at any moment I'll be kicked out. So where is my freedom?" Dull brain does not think of it. A prisoner, if he thinks that he is free to act, is it not foolishness? A prisoner, in prison, and if he thinks that he is free to act, is it not foolishness? So that they do not think. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has grouped them: mūḍha, these rascals, mūḍha. They conduct freedom movement. Just like in our country also, before this British Empire or this Mohammedan Empire there was no knowledge about this freedom. Indian people never thought of freedom. They know that "We are not free. Where is the question of freedom?" These things have come from the foreign countries, freedom movement. What is freedom? Where are you free? You are completely under the laws of nature. Where is your freedom? So they were thinking of greater freedom, to get out of the clutches of the laws of nature. That is real freedom. What is this freedom? From frying pan to the fire? (chuckles) Now we have freedom means from frying pan to the fire. Formerly there was one viceroy. Now in each state three dozen viceroys, and you have to maintain that. So many legislators, so many secretaries, so many ministers. All, they are sucking our poor blood. That's all. Hare Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you approach them for some grievances, "All right, give me application," and, after six months, "No." So we are maintaining for this purpose? Yes. "I say no." That's all. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...ing of freedom, but we have no freedom even to stay in this body. Indian man (6): Yes. That is not our plan. Indian man (5): Somebody else is controlling that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. We learn that na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. "This is my position. I am eternal. So why I am obliged to accept body which is hanyamāna?" These questions do not bother them. And where is my freedom? "I am eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. I do not die after the destruction of my body. Then why I am put into this body which will be destroyed, which will become old, useless? And where is my freedom?" These things do not bother them, and they are reader of Bhagavad*-gītā. Indian man (6): Somebody told that they are made to come here... Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (6): Is it the sin of some of the...? *Prabhupāda: No, that we shall consider. First of all we have to see that I learn that my position is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. So why I am put into this body which is hanyamāna? (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Yes. (Hindi) They want to remain in darkness, and any leader who will keep him in the darkness in flowery language, he will be welcomed: "Oh, he is very good leader." "And this man is very conservative: 'Don't do this, don't do this, don't do this.' " So here is freedom. "Whatever you like, you do"*-here is freedom. If this rascal does not do what you do and you go to hell, that is their business. Kṛṣṇa therefore says, "You rascal, where is your freedom?" Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. First of all you see. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. So where is your freedom? First of all get out of these things; *then question of freedom. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. This is your knowledge, that "Where is my freedom? If I am under the rules and regulation of janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, then where is my freedom?" (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Simply rubber-stamped freedom will help me? Suppose I was dependent on British rule, and now I have become free. So will this help me to get freedom from janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi? Then where is my freedom? What are major questions, they have set aside. "Don't discuss all these things, and bother your head with trifle things." And our philosophy is that "Don't bother with these trifle things. Just seriously think of the major problems." This is our philosophy. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Teṣām ahaṁ samuddhartā mṛtyu-saṁsāra-sāgarāt [Bg. 12.7]. Samuddahartā, just to deliver them from this ocean of mṛtyu-saṁsāra. That is not care. Real freedom is given by him*-that you don't care. [break] ...will be given by Kṛṣṇa. This is no freedom. Here the so-called freedom-giver, he has no freedom. And what he will give, freedom? Gandhiji preached so much about nonviolence, and nonviolence said, "All right, you have no freedom from nonviolence. You die." (Hindi) [break] ...is there, there is no question of freedom. (end) Morning Walk -- September 30, 1975, Bombay Prabhupāda: You are growing this flowers? Śaṅka: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Many? Śaṅka: Many, Śrīla Prabhupāda Prabhupāda: That's nice. It is very nice flower. Śaṅka: Also campa trees, many campa trees, down here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Ah, thank you. Grow such flowers. [break] Harikeśa: (Whispers) Got an umbrella? Prabhupāda: What are these trees? Harikeśa: We should bring an umbrella. Prabhupāda: These... [break] There is no understanding? [break] Dr. Patel: Japan also. Prabhupāda: Japan also. Well, everyone is against us. Dr. Patel: No, these boys who are recruited newly. They don't have much about the idea of Vaiṣṇavism. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's a fact. But what can I do? They are my helper. Dr. Patel: They have to be trained up earlier and then let loose. Otherwise, you know, they create it. Because all the bad impressions are for them. Prabhupāda: No. They'll be trained while working. Not that simply theorizing at home, no. Dr. Patel: That's right, but I think... Prabhupāda: They should work, and at the same time, they may fall down, just like a child tries to walk, falls down, again walks, again... Then he becomes complete. Dr. Patel: Those thirty characteristics of a sādhu that are depicted in the, in Bhāgavata.... Prabhupāda: That is not possible in one day. Dr. Patel: Thirty cannot come, but a few should come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Few that... They are... Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate [SB 5.18.12]. If they have got unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa and guru, that is all qualification. Dr. Patel: That is a fact. Prabhupāda: That is all qualification. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcan sarvair guṇaiḥ. All these qualities are already there. Dr. Patel: But for that you see, he has to withdraw his mind and all the senses from... *Prabhupāda: Even he does not withdraw, even it is sudurācāra, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya*-bhāk sādhur eva saḥ [Bg. 9.30]. *Dr. Patel: But then bhajate mām ananya*-bhāk. *Prabhupāda: Yes, ananya*-bhāk, they are doing that. Dr. Patel: Without severing his mind, anywhere he goes... *Prabhupāda: No. They are fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. That is a fact. You cannot bribe them to take from this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not possible. They may commit some mistake, but they are fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. That is bhajate mām ananya*-bhāk. You cannot deviate them. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. So this qualification they have, and for this qualification they will be triumphant, without anything else. We shall return now? *Dr. Patel: Those thirty qualifications do come naturally, as you say, but they come slowly. But (Hindi) we must teach them this in the kṛṣṇa*-bhakti, the qualities of a real sādhu. Prabhupāda: If you make a condition that "First of all you become qualified; *then you preach," that will never come. Rūpa Gosvāmī therefore recommends, yena tena prakāreṇa mana kṛṣṇe niveśayet: "Somehow or other bring him to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Then other... Sarve vidhi*-niṣedhāḥ. Vidhi-niṣedhāḥ. Sarve vidhi-niṣedhā syur etayor eva kiṅkarāḥ. Automatically they'll come as servant. First of all let their mind be fixed up on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Dr. Patel: But the present difficulties are because they don't know the vidhi*-niṣedhas. Prabhupāda: So how they can know? Dr. Patel: That is the difficulty. Prabhupāda: How they can know? Dr. Patel: That is the difficulty. Prabhupāda: So we... we are bringing them from which status? Yes. You cannot expect that they will be perfect all of a sudden, overnight. It is not possible. But their mind being fixed up on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is the first qualification. They do not know anything beyond Kṛṣṇa. That's all. *Dr. Patel: In our Vaiṣṇava religions this vidhi*-niṣedha is a must right from the beginning. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is must. It is must. But you cannot force in the beginning. That is not possible. Dr. Patel: But they have to be explained of it. *Prabhupāda: But if they fix up their mind in Kṛṣṇa, the vidhi-niṣedha automatically will come. That process I adopted. When they came to me I never said that "You don't do this, don't do that, don't do that." No. "You simply come here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." These are... Old students learned. I never said that "You have to follow these rules, these regulations, then you can come..." Because if chanting is properly done, then ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]*-the mind will be cleansed of all dirty things. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathā kṛṣṇa puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. Simply by hearing and chanting, they will be pious. Hṛdy antaḥ 'stho hy abhadrāṇi vidhunoti suhṛt satām. Kṛṣṇa is there. As soon as He sees one devotee is sincerely chanting, He'll help, cleansing the heart. Vidhunoti... You will read Ajāmila upākhyāna. Simply by chanting Nārāyaṇa... Dr. Patel: Ajāmila got it. Prabhupāda: Offenseless. *Dr. Patel: All psychological matters, and in the bhakti*-mārga, it is the sūkṣma-śarīra which is more important than the sthūla. Prabhupāda: Eh. Dr. Patel: The behavior of the sūkṣma-śarīra is more important than the sthūla. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is... The example is given that Ganges water, even it is superficially... There are floating stool and foams... Dr. Patel: Dead bodies also. Prabhupāda: So this stool and foam does not pollute the Ganges water. You set it aside and take your dip. That example is given that. External feature does not pollute the soul. Asaṅgo 'ya hi puruṣaḥ. The puruṣa... it is simply our abhiniveṣa. Abhiniveṣa is dangerous. Otherwise the soul has nothing to do with this body. Dr. Patel: That's right. No, soul is separate from all the three bodies. Prabhupāda: Exactly like that: one is on the motorcar. He has nothing to do with the motorcar, but if he thinks, "My car is life. Everything my..." Dr. Patel: Air is coming into... Prabhupāda: That abhiniveṣa gives him trouble. So this abhiniveṣa can be removed by increasing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is increased by following the regulative duties. Rise early in the morning, have maṅgala ārati, this, that, up to ten o'clock. Means vidhi. Dr. Patel: That is religious vidhi. Prabhupāda: So by vidhi, he becomes practiced, and.... Dr. Patel: That becomes a nature then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then it is nature. *Dr. Patel: And finally it gives you sākṣād*-dharma. (?) Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: All that thing... *Prabhupāda: They are... The vidhi*-niṣedha, if you give up vidhi-niṣedha, then you cannot improve. *Dr. Patel: No, the vidhi*-niṣedha is a must. Otherwise you are daitya sort of a thing, even though you may be practicing anything. *Prabhupāda: So that they are doing. They are following the regulative principles: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat*-eating. This is the niṣedha. Dr. Patel: I quite understand, sir. But the most important, the climax of the whole thing, is that you see the presence of God everywhere, which is very difficult in the beginning, I understand. But they should be informed that "This is our aim, that Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, and we have a darśana of Kṛṣṇa everywhere." Then and then he would not spite another man. *Prabhupāda: That they know. This is preliminary. Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not like... Not like the Ārya*-samājhis: "Kṛṣṇa is everywhere except in the temple." Dr. Patel: You have to create a temple within you, then seat Kṛṣṇa there. Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be, their proposition is "Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, but not in this temple." "Don't go to the temple." That is their proposition. Dr. Patel: They have theorized that just to oppose Islam. I don't think they meant much about it. Prabhupāda: What they have done? Simply hallucination. Dr. Patel: They believe more in the Vedic scriptures and Vedic injunctions than other things. Prabhupāda: And all the ācāryas, they are fools. Dr. Patel: No, no. Prabhupāda: Then they have meant that... Dr. Patel: They don't believe in these *Purāṇas*. That is a misfortune for them. Prabhupāda: Why? Why? Dr. Patel: That is a misfortune. *Prabhupāda: Not only that. They write Satya*-artha-prakāśa. That means they have understood the real meaning, and all the ācāryas, they are fools. That is their intelligence, satya-artha-prakāśa, that so long there was no satyārtha; now they have invented satyārtha. This is their intelligence. Dr. Patel: So Vaiṣṇava ācāryas have actually... I mean, through bhakti people realize the presence of God everywhere. *Prabhupāda: No, no. In comparison to Vaiṣṇava ācāryas... Apart from the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, they have done nothing even like me, what to speak of the ācāryas. I am only a servant and a servant of the ācāryas. They could not do anything. They admit. Real Arya*-samājīs, they admit that, that "What was our program, you have executed." *Dr. Patel: In Punjab there was lot of Muslim hierarchy, and that is what they wanted, that... Arya*-samājīs. Prabhupāda: But we are not against any "ism," either Muslimism or Christianism. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we never preach against anyone. *Dr. Patel: It was a socio*-economic problem or socio-political, not a religious problem. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, but we never criticize anyone. When the Christians come forward-"Whether our Christian religion can also give the same meaning"-"Yes, why not?" Yes. Dr. Patel: It has the same bhakti. Prabhupāda: I never said... *Dr. Patel: ut I think the Christianity is nothing but bhāgavata*-dharma. It has been preached in a different way. Prabhupāda: They inquire, "What is your opinion of Jesus Christ?" And "He is our guru." Dr. Patel: It's a fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I mean, that is what it is, what what we take, in fact... Prabhupāda: We do not... Dr. Patel: The Christians don't know that we take it like that. Prabhupāda: Even if we say "Mohammed," why not? Anyone who has preached Kṛṣṇa consciousness, maybe little differently according to time, circumstances, but anyone who has tried to preach the God consciousness, he is guru. Yei kṛṣṇa tattva vettā, sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128]. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's version. Anyone who preaches about the Supreme Lord, he is guru. Maybe in a different way, according to time, circumstances. The Mohammed also said Allah akbar. Dr. Patel: Only the difference is that Mohammed is trying to worship nirañjana, nirākāra, and we... Prabhupāda: No, no, not nirākāra. That is not... Dr. Patel: Even Christianity considers His ākāra-"God has form." *Prabhupāda: No, Mohammed also has got... Caitanya Mahāprabhu argued in Koran. He proved there is kṛṣṇa*-bhakti. He proved with the Pathans. Yes. *Dr. Patel: Otherwise the Christianity is just our way, I mean, absolutely Vaisnavism. It has been wrongly preached and wrongly initiated in India. That is why it has fallen to disrepute. Otherwise Christianity is just Vaiṣṇava*-dharma. Nothing else, to my mind, the way I have studied, I mean the New Testament and all the Christian, all the things. Now, the sermon of Christ is nothing but the preaching of Bhagavad-gītā. Prabhupāda: I never criticized. I simply said that positive side, God consciousness. Dr. Patel: Christ himself was drunk with God consciousness totally. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: Christ himself was drunk with God consciousness in toto, absolute.... There cannot be a higher bhakta than that. It is said that Jesus Christ learned all these things in India. It might be a fact? Passerby: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: And he daily bhakta. (?) He came for pūjā, for guru. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...devatā bhaktāḥ, te 'pi mām eva kaunteya yajanty avidhi*-purvakam. They give examples, as the gopīs worshiped Kātyāyanī. But that is not avidhi. They went to Kātyāyanī for getting the favor of Kṛṣṇa. They prayed to mother Kātyāyanī, "Please be favorable to us so that Kṛṣṇa may be pleased upon us." Others go to beg from Kātyāyanī some material benefits, but the gopīs, they did not ask for any material benefit. And therefore that is vidhi. Dr. Patel: Gopīs... Those who worship with Kṛṣṇa with sort of a sexual intention, but they became beyond the, I mean, guṇas, nirguṇa (Hindi), because Kṛṣṇa was nirguṇa. That is the thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. They became purified. That is simply so they are purified. So... Dr. Patel: Then, in ordinary social conditions also, when you have a friend, you become a great lover... Prabhupāda: Any condition, if you come to Kṛṣṇa, then you become purified. Dr. Patel: I know. But what I mean to say, when you have conditioned yourself with Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's guṇas will come to you, I mean... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: ...nirguṇa, nirguṇatvam, beyond the three guṇas of māyā. *Prabhupāda: There is a verse in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, etad īśanam īśasya. This is the, what is called, īśanam, means controlling power, of Kṛṣṇa, that when He comes in this material world, He is not infected. Dr. Patel: That is all the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas' teaching. Prabhupāda: That is īśanam. Dr. Patel: Even though we see Him as an ordinary physical body or a human body, but that is divya body, and it is not contaminated by any guṇas. Prabhupāda: And because it is not contaminated, therefore it is not ordinary body. Therefore anyone who thinks of Kṛṣṇa as possessing ordinary body, he is described as mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. In the ordinary human, this material body, nobody can be controller of the laws of nature. That is not possible. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Unless one has got spiritual body, it is not possible to be unaffected by this material world. Kṛṣṇa never became old although He lived for a 125 years. He never became old. Now, how you can say...? Dr. Patel: He was the controller of māyā but we are being controlled by the māyā. *Prabhupāda: No, no, anyway, a 125*-years-old and looking like a young man of twenty years old. How it is possible in a material body? Dr. Patel: So all the avatāras of God, they come with a controlling... *Prabhupāda: Ātma*-māyā. Dr. Patel: Controlling. *Prabhupāda: Sambhavāmy ātma*-māyayā [Bg. 4.6]. They do not come under the control of this mahāmāyā. They have got their own spiritual potency. Āhlādinī-śakti. Ātmanaṁ sṛjāmy aham. Ātmanam: Myself, I advent." How it can be like ordinary man? We are... karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. We get body. But He says.... Dr. Patel: And it is by His own free will. Prabhupāda: Yes, as He likes. He likes to appear as fish, that's all. Not that... Ordinary fish, it is forced to take the body of a fish. Dr. Patel: We are controlled by māyā and its actions... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: ...and take this body for the fulfillment of māyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: He takes the body to fulfill His mission. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the way. That is real understanding of Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. As soon as the Māyāvādī thinks that Kṛṣṇa also accepts a material body... Therefore they are called Māyāvādī. They are called Māyāvādī because they think Kṛṣṇa's body is also māyā. Therefore they are known as Māyāvādīs. *Dr. Patel: He takes birth in divya*-vigraha. Prabhupāda: Yes. Their story is: "As soon as there is form, it is māyā." They cannot think beyond that in their own terms. Because we have got this form, material body, so their generalization is "As soon as Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu, anyone, if He takes this form, then it is material." That is called māyā. Dr. Patel: But He takes the form with the control over māyā. We take the form under control of māyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is the controller of māyā. That they do not understand. *Dr. Patel: They don't understand what is divya*-vigraha. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They understand slightly sac*-cid-ānanda, but they cannot think of that sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. Śāstra says īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. That they cannot understand, being less intelligent. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu has explained, they cannot understand this. Māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇa aparādhī. Dr. Patel: They are aparādhīs of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. They, the Māyāvādīs, they are offender to Kṛṣṇa; *therefore they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. In other places it is said, aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Their intelligence is still unclean. Vimukta-māninaḥ. They are thinking that they have become liberated, māninaḥ, imposition, but actually Dr. Patel: Clouded, cloudy. *Prabhupāda: Clouded, yes. Aviśuddha. Therefore confirms this. Because the aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ, it takes many, many lives to purify it. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. When they come to the purified stage, then they surrender vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabha [Bg. 7.19]. They... [break] ...to be aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ unless they come to the point of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. And we are unintelligent persons. We do it immediately. Let us do it immediately. Why we shall wait for many, many births? Dr. Patel: It is not that, sir. I think complete surrendering of our ego at the sacred feet of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, and they cannot. Dr. Patel: That is bhakti. Prabhupāda: Yes, but they cannot do it. Dr. Patel: Because they are egoistic toward the body. *Prabhupāda: Not only that. They think they are very intelligent, overintelligent. They do not take advice of Kṛṣṇa. They are so intelligent that Kṛṣṇa says sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55], and still they will stick to their jñāna, yoga, karma. Kṛṣṇa clearly says that "You cannot understand Me by this process." Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi : [Bg. 18.55] "If you want to know Me in truth, then bhakti. Nothing else." And still, they will stick to those. *Dr. Patel: No, but I think they have not understood even Śaṅkarācārya. Śaṅkarācārya has composed stotras on Viṣṇu and... Bhaja govindam, bhaja govinda, govindaṁ bhaja mūḍha*-mate. Prabhupāda: Yes. They have become more than Śaṅkarācārya. Dr. Patel: They have seen the... Prabhupāda: Just like later on, the Gandhi's disciples became more than Gandhi, more than Gandhi. That's all. Gandhi planned village organization, and Jawaharlal Nehru planned industrialization. And everything failed. There is no money, and he wanted to establish industry like America. Dr. Patel: But he did not understand economics, sir. What is money after all? Money is nothing but the labor transformed into materials. We had the huge labor of sixty crores of people. He was capable of transforming that labor into material unfortunately and... Prabhupāda: Anyway, they changed the Gandhi's program. Dr. Patel: That is what Gandhi understood, but he did not. Prabhupāda: How he can understand? He wanted to utilize to become prime minister. Dr. Patel: Internationally that happened. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Now the village program of Gandhi is lost. *Dr. Patel: Absolutely. But whatever he has got, he had a lot of vidhi*-niṣedha... *Prabhupāda: And it is lost because it was not God*-centered. It is lost. Dr. Patel: But he was God conscious. I mean, I have been brought up in that camp. Gandhi was a saint. But these people could not follow him. They have not understood him well. Those people who understood him, they died out. They died out. Prabhupāda: Now, now, Gandhi's āśrama, was there any temple for worshiping Kṛṣṇa? No. Dr. Patel: They had a temple. My wife was brought up there in the āśrama. Prabhupāda: There was a temple? *Dr. Patel: In the morning they had to say prayer to Deva. (?) Gītā*-mandir they had. They had all the characteristics of a good saint. Prabhupāda: Why not from the beginning? No, no, no. Gandhi did not believe in Kṛṣṇa. No, yes, he has written, that "I know..." Dr. Patel: Not that the way we believe, but he did believe. Prabhupāda: No. That means he is right and we are wrong. Dr. Patel: We may be right. We may be right. Who knows? Many ways may be right. It is not only that one way be right. Prabhupāda: Then how we understand who is right and who is wrong? Dr. Patel: There cannot be only one way. There are many ways. *Prabhupāda: That is the defect. Therefore we present Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, no other way. Indian man (2): Gandhi was a politician. Dr. Patel: He was not a politician. He was more a bhakta than a politician. He fell in politics. He was a saintly man turned into a politician. He was more a saintly man than a politician. He failed in politics. I have seen it. Prabhupāda: No, he was studied by the governor of Bengal that "Either Gandhi is a saintly man amongst the politicians or he is a politician among the saintly persons." (laughter) *Dr. Patel: These people have not been able to understand Gandhi's intentions. It is the misfortune of this country they have not been able to carry out his message. Other people are able to carry out his messages. Other people of the world are able to understand him well, but we people are fools not to understand him. No. His socio*-economic condition..., I mean, program. His program for lifting the society... You are religious head. He was a sort of a, another man, but in his own spirit he was doing a good work. *Prabhupāda: Our proposition is that Bhagavad*-gītā begins to distinguish the soul... Dr. Patel: From the body. Prabhupāda: And the body. But Gandhi has never said anywhere. *Dr. Patel: He was always, you know, anāsakta*-yoga. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is all right, but... Dr. Patel: He always used to, daily, twice... Prabhupāda: In the beginning this is the... You can have any yoga, anāsakti or āsakti, but the primary instruction is one has to understand first of all this, that one is not this body. And the national movement is based on this bodily concept of life. "I am Indian." Dr. Patel: All the national... All the world's on that body. Prabhupāda: So that is the difference. First of all one has to understand that he is neither Indian nor American nor English. But if you go on pushing on national movement, where is the chance of understanding that you are not this body? Just like our movement, we never say anything national. We simply state that "You are not this body. You are spirit soul." Dr. Patel: Gandhiji, when he went to one first round table conference in London, and he had to confront those women, I mean the wives of the workers of the Manchester mills, he said that "We are poor." They say, "We are poor. We are suffering for the poor of India." Then he had to give this argument that "Poors of India are much poorer than what you are." So he is trying to..., I mean, take a... Prabhupāda: So that is bodily concept. Dr. Patel: But he was in politics. Prabhupāda: Poor or rich, that is due to this body. Dr. Patel: In politics you have got to be body conscious. Politics or war is the same thing, after all. Your sphere is much different, sir, than those. And we cannot compare them with you or you with them. You are a, I mean, out and out a bhakta and a saint. He was a politician. *Prabhupāda: No. I am talking about the Bhagavad*-gītā,... *Dr. Patel: All right, Bhagavad*-gītā. Whatever little we understand, we preach. *Prabhupāda: ...that the first principle of Bhagavad*-gītā is to understand that "I am not this body." Dr. Patel: Gandhiji's program was to emancipate the poor, downtrodden people of India in whatever way... In that way, in which there is no implication of falsehood. Prabhupāda: No, it may not be falsehood, but... Dr. Patel: It will be by the right way. Prabhupāda: This may not be the right way. Dr. Patel: May not be or wrong way, we do not know. But then he did. According to him, he brought and he tried, and he struggled... *Prabhupāda: No, no, we simply study that the Bhagavad*-gītā begins with this education, that "You are not this body." Yes. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Asmin dehe, dehi. It has nothing to do with this kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. This is to be understood. The whole world requires to understand this verse; *otherwise they remain go*-khara. Dr. Patel: That is right, sir. That has been explained from time immemorial, but the world does not understand. Prabhupāda: No, no, why not? These people are understanding. These all Kṛṣṇa conscious students, they are understanding. Otherwise... Dr. Patel: These type of students were eternally there with all the religious teaching, past and present. But unfortunately... Prabhupāda: So those who were there, they understood. They... Dr. Patel: Unfortunate for the world it is not going to do that. Prabhupāda: No, there was no preaching. That's it. Now the preaching is going on. They are understanding. Nobody preached this. If you... Just like a big building. If the foundation is wrong, then it will not stay. *Dr. Patel: This Bhagavad*-gītā has got everything, all aspects of life. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the beginning of teaching, that "You are not this body." If you remain in the false understanding that "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," there is no spiritual education. Mohita. That is called mohita. Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvair, mohitaṁ nābhijānāti. He remains in ignorance. (aside:) (Hindi) Jaya. Passerby: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: He's a great devotee. Humbleness. Caitanya... Dr. Patel: Out of all those things, māna... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: ...is the first thing that a man should... Prabhupāda: Humble and meek. Christ also taught like that. "The humble and meek will go to the kingdom of God." Dr. Patel: "Meek and humble will..." What is that? Prabhupāda: Here the disease is nobody is humble, nobody is meek. *Dr. Patel: That is car*-dharma. Prabhupāda: Not car... *Dr. Patel: Car*-dharma is that. Prabhupāda: That is material dharma. *Dr. Patel: This is Kali*-yuga, going on. *Prabhupāda: Kali*-yuga, it is excessive, but this is going on. Even... Maybe in Satya-yuga it was less. *Dr. Patel: Maybe nothing, perhaps, the first Satya*-yuga. People were all saints. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: But they are fools. They should have kept more on the side of it. Prabhupāda: It is now in the middle of the street. Dr. Patel: The government of this country is going on everywhere. Prabhupāda: We have nothing to do. We are world, but it is in the middle of the street. Dr. Patel: I have got a killa. (?) Prabhupāda: Yes. It has dignified. Dr. Patel: They ought to thicken wall with a little under because this kaccā wall foundation is there. They should make it... This wall. They should dress it up, the foundation, which is above. No? You are going away today? Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Conversation -- October 0, 1975, Mauritius *Prabhupāda: He is greater than the greatest and smaller than the smallest. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūteṣu . . . arjuna tiṣṭhati ( BG 18.65). You'll find at night a small insect, He has got all the . . . anatomical . . . framework . . . small . . . (indistinct) . . . aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara . . . ( Brahma-saṁhitā 5.35) Kṛṣṇa is within the atom, that is Kṛṣṇa. (break) Knowledge, philosophy, logic you want to study Kṛṣṇa? So many books. You cannot finish even in your life. We have got already published 60 books. (break) Brahman and Parabrahman, Kṛṣṇa is Parabrahman . . . (indistinct) . . . Brahman. We are all brahman . But Kṛṣṇa is Parabrahman. (break) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport " . . . but my opinion is that where Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna are present, there will be all good fortune." Prabhupāda: He directly confirmed that Dhṛtarāṣṭra could not expect victory for his side. Victory was certain for the side of Arjuna because Kṛṣṇa was there. Kṛṣṇa's acceptance of the post of charioteer for Arjuna was an exhibition of another opulence. Kṛṣṇa is full of all opulences, and renunciation is one of them. There are many instances of such renunciation, for Kṛṣṇa is also the master of renunciation. The fight was actually between Duryodhana and Yudhiṣṭhira. Arjuna was fighting on behalf of his elder brother, Yudhiṣṭhira. Because Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna were on the side of Yudhiṣṭhira, Yudhiṣṭhira's victory was certain. The battle was to decide who would rule the world, and Sañjaya predicted that the power would be transferred to Yudhiṣṭhira. It is also predicted here that Yudhiṣṭhira, after gaining victory in this battle, would flourish more and more because not only was he righteous and pious but he was also a strict moralist. He never spoke a lie during his life. *There are many less intelligent persons who take Bhagavad*-gītā to be a discussion of topics between two friends on a battlefield. But such a book cannot be scripture. Some may protest that Kṛṣṇa incited Arjuna to fight, which is immoral, but the reality of the situation is clearly stated: Bhagavad-gītā is the supreme instruction in morality. The supreme instruction of morality is stated in the Ninth Chapter 34th verse: man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ . One must become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and the essence of all religion is to surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, as stated, sarva-dharmān . The instructions of Bhagavad-gītā constitute the supreme process of religion and of morality. All other processes may be purifying and may lead to this process, but the last instruction of the Gītā is the last word in all morality and religion: surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. This is the verdict of the Eighteenth Chapter. *From the Bhagavad*-gītā we can understand that to realize oneself by philosophical speculation and by meditation is one process, but to fully surrender unto Kṛṣṇa is the highest perfection. This is the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā . The path of regulative principles according to the orders of social life and according to the different courses of religion may be a confidential path of knowledge in as far as the rituals of religion are confidential, but one is still involved with meditation and cultivation of knowledge. Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa in devotional service in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the most confidential instruction and is the essence of the Eighteenth Chapter (BG 18.78, purport). (end) Conversation -- October 0, 1975, Mauritius *Prabhupāda: He is greater than the greatest and smaller than the smallest. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūteṣu . . . arjuna tiṣṭhati ( BG 18.65). You'll find at night a small insect, He has got all the . . . anatomical . . . framework . . . small . . . (indistinct) . . . aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara . . . ( Brahma-saṁhitā 5.35) Kṛṣṇa is within the atom, that is Kṛṣṇa. (break) Knowledge, philosophy, logic you want to study Kṛṣṇa? So many books. You cannot finish even in your life. We have got already published 60 books. (break) Brahman and Parabrahman, Kṛṣṇa is Parabrahman . . . (indistinct) . . . Brahman. We are all brahman . But Kṛṣṇa is Parabrahman. (break) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport " . . . but my opinion is that where Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna are present, there will be all good fortune." Prabhupāda: He directly confirmed that Dhṛtarāṣṭra could not expect victory for his side. Victory was certain for the side of Arjuna because Kṛṣṇa was there. Kṛṣṇa's acceptance of the post of charioteer for Arjuna was an exhibition of another opulence. Kṛṣṇa is full of all opulences, and renunciation is one of them. There are many instances of such renunciation, for Kṛṣṇa is also the master of renunciation. The fight was actually between Duryodhana and Yudhiṣṭhira. Arjuna was fighting on behalf of his elder brother, Yudhiṣṭhira. Because Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna were on the side of Yudhiṣṭhira, Yudhiṣṭhira's victory was certain. The battle was to decide who would rule the world, and Sañjaya predicted that the power would be transferred to Yudhiṣṭhira. It is also predicted here that Yudhiṣṭhira, after gaining victory in this battle, would flourish more and more because not only was he righteous and pious but he was also a strict moralist. He never spoke a lie during his life. *There are many less intelligent persons who take Bhagavad*-gītā to be a discussion of topics between two friends on a battlefield. But such a book cannot be scripture. Some may protest that Kṛṣṇa incited Arjuna to fight, which is immoral, but the reality of the situation is clearly stated: Bhagavad-gītā is the supreme instruction in morality. The supreme instruction of morality is stated in the Ninth Chapter 34th verse: man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ . One must become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and the essence of all religion is to surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, as stated, sarva-dharmān . The instructions of Bhagavad-gītā constitute the supreme process of religion and of morality. All other processes may be purifying and may lead to this process, but the last instruction of the Gītā is the last word in all morality and religion: surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. This is the verdict of the Eighteenth Chapter. *From the Bhagavad*-gītā we can understand that to realize oneself by philosophical speculation and by meditation is one process, but to fully surrender unto Kṛṣṇa is the highest perfection. This is the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā . The path of regulative principles according to the orders of social life and according to the different courses of religion may be a confidential path of knowledge in as far as the rituals of religion are confidential, but one is still involved with meditation and cultivation of knowledge. Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa in devotional service in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the most confidential instruction and is the essence of the Eighteenth Chapter (BG 18.78, purport). (end) Arrival Reception -- October 1, 1975, Mauritius Indian Official: . . . we are very pleased to have you in among us. And we welcome you on behalf of the people of Mauritius to this island and hope you will enjoy your short stay here. And Swāmījī, how long are you going to stay here? Prabhupāda: The program is one week. Indian Official: One week. Have you got any special program? You are going for lectures or . . . Prabhupāda: I do not know what they have arranged, but my secretary says that it will be one week. Indian Official: Have you had any idea of Mauritius before you came here? You knew anything about . . . *Prabhupāda: (laughing) My idea is to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because for want of this knowledge, our mission of human life is failing all over the world. Therefore, I am trying to introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world, without any distinction of caste, creed, color. God is for everyone, and we have forgotten our relationship with God. Therefore, you are suffering in so many ways. And His instruction is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If we follow, then we become happy; our life becomes successful. This is our mission. Indian Official: Well, briefly you have explained the purpose of your visit. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian Official: And, of course, as you know, we have . . . by now we know that it is a worldwide movement, and we are pleased that it has reached Mauritius at long last. And we hope that there will be scope for this movement, and with your blessing. Prabhupāda: If you kindly give me the opportunity, then I can explain to you how much important this movement is and how everyone should take to it. Although it is very easy, but people are not trained up. So let us try combinedly. People may take it and be happy. Indian Official: So thank you very much, Swāmījī, and hope that your stay will be very fruitful after a long and arduous work which you have been doing throughout the world. We hope that you will be . . . Prabhupāda: I want to see the leading men of this place . . . Indian Official: Yes. Certainly. Prabhupāda: . . . because if they understand the importance of this movement, then my mission will be successful. Indian Official: But you will have the opportunity of seeing. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ tat tad evetaro janaḥ ( BG 3.21). In Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: the leaders, whatever they do, the ordinary, common man follows. Indian Official: Follows the fellowship. That's fine, yes. Prabhupāda: So the leading men of Mauritius, if they understand the importance of this movement, then I am sure it will be very much beneficial for everyone. Indian Official: For everyone. Yes. So thank you very much, Swāmījī, on behalf of the people of Mauritius and all our friends, and the NBC TV who have been very kind enough. Here you have the chairman here. And we are very grateful to you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (aside to devotees) We can go now? Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Arrival Reception -- October 1, 1975, Mauritius Indian Official: . . . we are very pleased to have you in among us. And we welcome you on behalf of the people of Mauritius to this island and hope you will enjoy your short stay here. And Swāmījī, how long are you going to stay here? Prabhupāda: The program is one week. Indian Official: One week. Have you got any special program? You are going for lectures or . . . Prabhupāda: I do not know what they have arranged, but my secretary says that it will be one week. Indian Official: Have you had any idea of Mauritius before you came here? You knew anything about . . . *Prabhupāda: (laughing) My idea is to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because for want of this knowledge, our mission of human life is failing all over the world. Therefore, I am trying to introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world, without any distinction of caste, creed, color. God is for everyone, and we have forgotten our relationship with God. Therefore, you are suffering in so many ways. And His instruction is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If we follow, then we become happy; our life becomes successful. This is our mission. Indian Official: Well, briefly you have explained the purpose of your visit. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian Official: And, of course, as you know, we have . . . by now we know that it is a worldwide movement, and we are pleased that it has reached Mauritius at long last. And we hope that there will be scope for this movement, and with your blessing. Prabhupāda: If you kindly give me the opportunity, then I can explain to you how much important this movement is and how everyone should take to it. Although it is very easy, but people are not trained up. So let us try combinedly. People may take it and be happy. Indian Official: So thank you very much, Swāmījī, and hope that your stay will be very fruitful after a long and arduous work which you have been doing throughout the world. We hope that you will be . . . Prabhupāda: I want to see the leading men of this place . . . Indian Official: Yes. Certainly. Prabhupāda: . . . because if they understand the importance of this movement, then my mission will be successful. Indian Official: But you will have the opportunity of seeing. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ tat tad evetaro janaḥ ( BG 3.21). In Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: the leaders, whatever they do, the ordinary, common man follows. Indian Official: Follows the fellowship. That's fine, yes. Prabhupāda: So the leading men of Mauritius, if they understand the importance of this movement, then I am sure it will be very much beneficial for everyone. Indian Official: For everyone. Yes. So thank you very much, Swāmījī, on behalf of the people of Mauritius and all our friends, and the NBC TV who have been very kind enough. Here you have the chairman here. And we are very grateful to you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (aside to devotees) We can go now? Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Morning Walk -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius *Prabhupāda: ...not dangerously atheistic. Atheism they have spread. "There is no God*-science." [break] Brahmānanda: ...possible to be a scientist and also be God conscious. Why not use science... Prabhupāda: That is real scientist. These are false scientists. Actually the Supreme Lord is the source of everything. So if one is actually scientist, by his scientific explanation he will point out, "Here is the cause of all causes." By scientific knowledge he will point out that God is the origin of everything. Then his scientific study is perfect. But these rascals, they are doing the opposite, that "There is no need of God. Science is everything," although it is imperfect. That is their fault. Therefore they are rogues. They cannot prove; still, they will insist, "Yes, we shall do. We are trying," like that, and misleading people. General people, they are rascal and fools. If you mislead them, they will be misled. Śūdra, mūḍhas. They are to be educated. Instead of educating them, they are making them more and more fools and rascals. [break] There is utility, but they have no utility. There is some service; they carry some passengers. They are carried nowhere. Simply they mislead. [break] Cyavana: ...lization, they feel that they need science. They've become dependent upon science. They feel that without science they cannot live. Prabhupāda: Why? Cyavana: The scientists have made them dependent. Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. These rascals are fools. Therefore they have become dependent. Why science? What for? That is not... Science is required, vijñāna. That is nice. But they are not scientists. Cyavana: We ask them if they need eternal life. They say "No, we don't need that. We need comforts." Prabhupāda: They... We are eternal. Cyavana: That "We need our daily bread," like that. Prabhupāda: Where is comfort? You are going to die. Where is your comfort? You are going to be diseased. You are going to be old man like me. Every moment there is some trouble. So where is the comfort, rascal? That means misleading. There is no comfort; still, they are promising comfort. This is misleading. Where is comfort? Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is no comfort. *Prabhupāda: Huh? Where is comfort? If you have to die-"Oh, I am dying comfortably"*-what is this nonsense? "I am dying comfortably." Indian devotee man (1): Like yesterday night, that man. I asked him, (Hindi) So he said that "I am all right." But he was unable to sit on the chair. Prabhupāda: So which way? Cyavana: To the park, straight. Prabhupāda: Comfort, where is your comfort? Why you have so many medical men if you are comfortable? Why there are so many drugs, medicine, if you are comfortable? This is māyā. He is not in comfort; still, he will say that "I am in comfort." This is called māyā, illusion. Brahmānanda: So these drugs, even though one may be feeling pain, he can take the drugs and he won't feel pain. Prabhupāda: Yes. He will take injection. It is comfort. Daily he will take injection, and it is comfort. (laughter) Just see the fools and rascals. Mūḍha. [break] ...met so many medical men, doctors and quack. "Die comfortably." What is the use of this medical man, medicine? What is the use? If your comfort and death is comfortable, then why spend so much money? Die comfortably. Because you cannot check death, then why you are trying to check death? "Let me live some years more. Let me take this medicine." Why? Why this struggle? Die comfortably. Suffer disease comfortably. Cyavana: They've made so much propaganda that life is meant to enjoy. Everywhere... Prabhupāda: Enjoy, but where is your enjoyment? Come to the practical point. Where is your enjoyment? You are simply suffering. That is their rascaldom. They are suffering; *still, they say, "I am enjoying." This is called illusion, māyā. Enjoy. That we also say, that we are trying to take you to a certain place, kingdom of God or back..., where you will enjoy. Enjoy... Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). That enjoy is our aim. But where is your enjoyment here? That is your rascaldom. There is no enjoyment; still, you say, "We shall enjoy." Cyavana: Their propaganda leads people to think that they can enjoy... That it's possible here. *Prabhupāda: They're misleading. That is misleading. We have to check that. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness move..., that... They are not enjoying, and these rascals misleading them that they are enjoying. [break] Enjoyment is our aim also*-but real enjoyment. Ramante yogino 'nante satyānande. Satyānanda. Not this ānanda, temporary ānanda. Cyavana: Eternal. *Prabhupāda: Satyānanda*-cid-ātmani. Yogis, bhakti-yogis, they also want ānanda, but not this false ānanda, satyānanda-cid-ātmāni, iti... Therefore they call Rāma. Rāma means ramaṇa, enjoyment. Iti rāma-padenāsau paraṁ brahmābhidhiyate [Cc. Madhya 9.29]. They do not know what is satyānanda. They do not understand, as soon as we accept this material body, it is misery, simply misery. The body is constructed within the womb of the mother in a miserable condition. These rascals, they do not understand. In a packed-up way, head down, leg up. And it is enjoyment. The body is created in this troublesome, from miserable condition; still, they say, "enjoyment." This is foolishness. This is called illusion. Brahmānanda: Sigmund Freud, his philosophy is that that position in the womb was one of great security, and we all want to go back to that position. Prabhupāda: Where is security? The mother is killing them, abortion. Where is security? The mother, under whose abdomen I have taken shelter, she is killing. Where is security? *Indian man (1): One Ārya*-samājī in Nairobi, he was saying that the body is only made in three months, not in seven months in the abdomen of a mother. Prabhupāda: Hm? Indian man (1): He said the body only... Prabhupāda: The body is made in one night. Indian man (1): He said that... Prabhupāda: No, he said. What he is? Body is made, one night, immediately. After sex it becomes emulsified, two secretion, and immediately a pealike form is there. That is body. And that grows. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Although everyone is suffering, however, they think that "Because I am not suffering, everyone else is suffering, and that's okay." They're thinking that the miseries are only for others. Prabhupāda: That is another ignorance. Everyone is dying. He is thinking, "I will not die." This is ignorance. He is running so fast unnecessarily. Cyavana: He is trying to enjoy that machine. Prabhupāda: Enjoy means another machine will strike, and his enjoyment will stop. There is ship, going fast. Where he will go fast? Brahmānanda: Around the island. *Prabhupāda: Just like the dog. He goes fast here and there. "Gow! Gow!" (laughter) It is like that. He is going fast. Doggish mentality. That's all, all dogs and cats, no human being. This civilization means they are creating only dogs and cats, animals, go*-kharaḥ, cows and asses. They are... We don't take them as human being. All animals. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that because they don't acknowledge that they're suffering? Prabhupāda: So many things. So many things. The first ignorance is that accepting this body as self. Everyone. Cyavana: The capitalists are so anxious for money that they exploit this tendency of the living entity to enjoy by tempting him. Every year they create some new way to entice him. *Prabhupāda: And taxation. And the taxation is divided among them. The tax is meant for public welfare. Instead of public welfare, they divide it amongst themselves and enjoy wine, women, motorcar and flesh. That's all. This is going on. All this income tax*-plundering process. This income tax means a plan how to take away everything from the actually earning members of the society. That is income tax. And that is divided amongst administrators. That's all. Cyavana: Here it is very prominent. The workers in the fields, they are barely making enough to live from day to day. But the planters who live in France, they are taking millions of rupees and living very comfortably. Prabhupāda: Therefore Communism is coming. Go this way? Cyavana: Is it this way? We can go this way. This way. Or better this way. Now he's coming the other way. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...create another danger. Just like airplane. It is comfortable. You can quickly go from one place to another. But as soon as on the plane, immediately your life is at risk. There is no certainty. So this is the way of material world. You create some comfort and you create some greater danger also. Side by side. It cannot be unhampered comfort. That is not possible. You create a motorcar-the same thing*-you drive very speedy and you meet accident. Railway, the accident. There was no need. You produce your food locally and produce your milk. Then eat, drink, and live comfortably. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Make your life successful. Yad uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam [SB 1.5.22]. And if you have got education, then describe the glories of the Lord by your scientific and educational qualification. [break] The rain is coming. We can go this way. Yad uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam [SB 1.5.22]. [break] Brahmānanda: In the Bible there are so many things that were... about the world that were mistakes, and then, by their scientific knowledge, they found the real fact. Like they say the earth was flat... Prabhupāda: Bible may be wrong, but we are talking generally. So if you are scientist, you can say the right thing. But why should you deny God? Brahmānanda: Well, if the book of God has made mistake, then we don't have any faith... *Prabhupāda: Book of God... Then throw it. Kick it out. But I say that you are scientist. How you can deny God? That is our propaganda. The so*-called book of God, you throw away. But you are scientist. How can you deny the existence of God? Why you are misleading? Bible misleading, that's all right. Why you are misleading? That is our point. Cyavana: For so many centuries they took the Bible to be the authority. Prabhupāda: All right, throw it away. You are scientist. Cyavana: They won't. *Prabhupāda: You are a scientist. How you can deny God? Then what kind of scientist you are? The Bible has done wrong. Throw it away. I have no objection. But you are scientist. How you can deny God? And that is our point. Come to this logic, that "How we can deny God?" You are speaking that from chemical combination life is formed. Do it in the laboratory. You cannot do it. Why you are propagating false propaganda? What kind of scientist? Then you are also to be kicked out. If Bible is to be kicked out you are also to be kicked out. Why you are claiming your position? You prove first of all. You combine chemical and produce a life. And you are making false propaganda, so you are to be kicked out. They say, "We shall do in future." And what is the future? Then why you are at present making false propaganda. Wait for the future. Post*-dated check. "In future I shall pay." Who will accept this check? Any nonsense will accept. Brahmānanda: But this world is so imperfect... Prabhupāda: The world is not imperfect; you are imperfect rascal. You are rascal; you are imperfect. World is not imperfect. Brahmānanda: Well, they have these cyclones. They come... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Must come because you are to be killed. You are rascal; you are to be killed. Therefore God has created cyclone. You protect yourself if you are scientist, if you have got power. Cyavana: Because they are anxious for some... Prabhupāda: Because God has created cyclone, therefore He is perfect because you are to be killed, blown away with your all paraphernalia, with your all scientific laboratory and instrument. Go. Go to hell. That is perfection. Cyavana: They are eager to find a solution. Therefore they are forced to speculate because they have no other way... Prabhupāda: No other way. Cyavana: They have no other way to learn, unless they will accept Veda, which they won't accept. [break] ...sense gratification. They enjoy making so many theories. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Mano*-ratha: "Chariot of mind." Cyavana: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Mano*-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. By his chariot of the mind he will be driven to this material consciousness. [break] ...spiritual knowledge. Therefore, we see, big, big scientists, they are thinking that combination of matter can produce life. In spite of so much advanced learning, they do not know what is life. They cannot create life; still, they will theorize. How foolish they are. And as soon as you catch his throat, "Produce life." "No, we shall do it in future." Just see. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes people ask that "If God is so great, then why doesn't He just come and destroy all the evil?" Prabhupāda: Because you have to suffer. You are rascal. You must suffer. Therefore evil must be there. Brahmānanda: Why doesn't He force us to be good? Prabhupāda: Just like if the criminals and thieves say, "Why government has created this prisonhouse?" Is it very good argument? It is for you, rascal. You are criminal. You must suffer. Why it is to be abolished? Otherwise who will suffer? It is for your suffering. Brahmānanda: Why are we evil? Why doesn't God makes us good? Prabhupāda: Hm? Brahmānanda: Why are we evil? *Prabhupāda: No, God says that "You become devotee of Me." You do not become. That is your fault. Therefore you must... Just like government does not say that you become criminal. Government says, "You become educated. You become high*-court judge, become big officer." Why you become criminal, pickpocket? Does government give any education for becoming pickpocket? Hm? Is there any institution how to steal, how to become pickpocket? (laughter) Then why do you become? Just see. [break] ...eatables you can collect, and I shall show you how to cook in the cooker. One boy. You also see, because nobody will go there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Harikeśa is getting his visa today. Prabhupāda: So we can return. [break] Whole educational system is defective because there is no spiritual education. That has made everything impossible. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One young boy in Johannesburg wanted to join us. He is sixteen years old. So his headmaster said, "What you will do without an education?" They think that this is the greatest ignorance. These are the leaders of education, the headmaster. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...spiritual education, he remains an animal. That's all. [break] That is Vedānta*-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā. To find out the ultimate goal, that is education. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], "Wherefrom everything is coming," that is education. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they may say, "That is not practical, because we will starve to death with such knowledge." Prabhupāda: Then... Then you are useless. Because you cannot go to the ultimate point of education, therefore your education is useless. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But then they will ask, "You will come and bring me food?" Prabhupāda: Yes, I will give you food. Food is there. You are not creating food. It is... From the earth it is grown. Brahmānanda: But we have to work very hard; otherwise we won't get money for buying food. Prabhupāda: No. You work a very slight three months in a year and get all food. Food is there; milk is there; land is there. You have to work. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it possible to take the mass of crowlike people and give them the higher taste? Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it possible to take a mass of crowlike people and elevate them? Prabhupāda: Yes. Human beings, after all, they are. They can be educated. That is the opportunity of human life, that he can be educated. The cats and dogs cannot. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Wake up in the morning and get drunk. Cyavana: They're watching. [break] Prabhupāda: ...prominent. Red, yellow, and blue. Indian man (1): Blue. Cyavana: Violet is there. Prabhupāda: No. The mix, you make a hundred color, but three colors are prominent. Then you mix. You mix the green and yellow..., er, blue and yellow; it become green. You mix the red and yellow; it will become orange. You mix the blue and red; it become violet. Like that. Originally three colors. Brahmānanda: They say from those three colors they can make actually thousands of different colors. Prabhupāda: Therefore three modes of material nature by mixture-8,400,000's of species of life, by different mixture. And when you come to the original color, then the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya... And then you transcend the color; you come to the spiritual life. [break] Bhārgava: ...prison. And then when he gets out of prison he has the memory of his punishment, and that acts as a deterrent to him committing the crime again. But if someone is sinful... [break] *Prabhupāda: It is tamo*-guṇa. He knows everything; *still, he is forced to act criminally. That is tamo*-guṇa. Everyone knows that he will be punished. He has seen that criminal is punished. Still, he acts criminally. That is called ignorance. Heart is unclean. Therefore our first process is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], to cleanse the heart. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Pāpa*-buddhi, sinful intelligence. *Prabhupāda: To cleanse the heart, beginning of cleanse the heart, that everyone is cats and dogs and so*-called human beings... They are under the bodily concept of life. It has to be cleansed, that "You are not this body." If he understands that, then he will understand other things. This is the beginning of knowledge. But where is that knowledge? No school, no college, teaches this thing. So they remain in ignorance. What is this education if he remains in ignorance? [break] ...kinds of advertisement. Cyavana: That is their propaganda. [break] *Prabhupāda: There was no... We don't require all these things because we know others are victims. They pay for it. And they work hard for the money and pay to work. That's all. Our men never touch this Coca*-cola and cigarette, but others, they are mad after it. Brahmānanda: They say they have to work so hard to get food, but actually they are working hard for this. *Prabhupāda: He'll get food. Food they can grow very easily, but they... Anartha. This is called anartha. Anartha means unnecessarily. Ādau śraddh tata sādhu*-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriy tato 'nartha-nivṛtti syāt. So anartha-nivṛtti civilization, not anartha increasing. Civilization means anartha-nivṛtti syāt because we are complicated by the anarthas, unwanted things. [break] ...this way there is bulls, horses for transport. But what is the use of these big, big motorbuses and acquire petrol, machine, factory, so many things? But nature's way there is already means of transport. The horses are there. The bulls are there. But they will eat them, and they will create these motor big, big buses and then petrol, then fight. (baby birds making sounds.) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They also want to join the saṅkīrtana movement. Prabhupāda: They are dependent on mother, by nature dependent. Similarly, you should be dependent on the original source of emanation. This is nature. Why they are with the mother? Cyavana: Without the mother they cannot survive. Prabhupāda: No, without, they can survive; still, they are dependent. Cyavana: They have to be taught how to live by the mother. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They feel protected with the mother. Safe. People sometimes argue that God is for less intelligent, weak persons. Brahmānanda: People who can't protect themselves, for people who cannot protect themselves, then they can have belief... Prabhupāda: Then you can protect from death? Can you? Brahmānanda: But can God protect? Even Jesus Christ, he was killed. Prabhupāda: That's all right. We are faulty. But you are so advanced. Do you protect yourself from death? We are faulty. That is your decision. That we admit. But what is your position? Protect yourself from death. At any moment death can take place. How you'll protect yourself? Therefore we take protection of God. That "God, You can kill me at any moment. You can save me also." Therefore we are intelligent. But you cannot protect from the onslaught of God. We admit God is great, but you do not, although you will not be protected. You cannot protect yourself from birth, death, old age and disease. So what is the meaning of your protection? Brahmānanda: So both the devotee and the nondevotee, they are both in the same position. They both... Prabhupāda: They... And the devotees know that we are under the control of the Supreme, but you do not know. You are cats and dogs, and the dogs do not know, the cats do not know, you do not know. Therefore you are no better than the cats and dogs. And we know that there is God; there is controller. Therefore we are not cats and dogs. We are equal to the cats and dogs. You do not know; therefore you remain cats and dogs. We know. Brahmānanda: What is the harm of being a cat or a dog? Prabhupāda: That is later on. First of all you do not know; we know. That is the difference. If somebody knows there is government, he is better than the outlaws who don't, doesn't care for the government. He is better position, a good citizen. Who accepts that there is government is good citizen. And one who doesn't care for the government, does whimsically everything, he becomes criminal. And then he is punished. That is the difference. Brahmānanda: So if we all became devotees there would be no punishment. *Prabhupāda: No. He'll be protected. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You've given the example that the rat in the mouth of the cat and the kitten in the mouth of the cat is two different things. [break] Prabhupāda: ...side. Cyavana: From the hills, from these mountains. There are lakes and reservoirs and it comes down. There's a lot of rainfall on certain parts of the island all year. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were speaking of anarthas and one of the lesser age boys was wondering... He's asking why we shouldn't take tea. *Prabhupāda: Because intoxication. You become addicted. You are asking because you cannot give up tea. Therefore you are asking. Therefore it should be given up. You become servant of tea. Otherwise there is no question of asking. His asking means you want to drink. That means he has become servant of tea. Our original position*-we are servant of God. So we are going to be servant of God. So if we remain servant of this material world, we cannot become servant of God. [break] ...unnecessary are advertised and people become victimized. Indian: We are putting our posters here all round and they down immediately. Simply they want advertisement of this. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...because they are envious. When they advertise all kinds of nonsense they don't mind getting cheated. But something nice, they are envious of it. *Prabhupāda: Accha bole tomare lagdha, suta jagat murare.(?) You give me that chewra and milk and banana, nothing else. [break] ...and so much useless labor for growing tea, that will be stopped. You can grow food. [break] You drink tea, you'll require sugar. Then unnecessarily producing so much sugarcane. And the by*-product of sugarcane, molasses, you'll have to utilize. Then produce wine, liquor. One after another. Indian man (3): But our country depends upon sugar. Prabhupāda: No, that is mistake. Your country, you can produce your own food. That's all. Why you should depend? You produce food grains. You produce milk. Then your all necessities is supplied. Why should you produce unnecessarily? Brahmānanda: Here they use powdered milk because they have no cows. Prabhupāda: Just see. And here even by this sugarcane, what is called? Upper part? This part? Indian man (1): We call it ag.(?) Prabhupāda: Ag, yes. You can maintain thousand of cows. Indian man (1): But that's actually best food, you know. In Punjab they use that. They store it for a year. Prabhupāda: But you do not know how to be happy. Indian man (1): Even this land, here they are producing sugarcane. So that is strong for wheat. They can grow plenty of wheat. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Everything can be grown. Cyavana: If sugarcane will grow, anything will grow. It's very fertile. Indian man (1): Because they don't want to do anything, they simply plant the sugarcane and then they want rest for few months, simply getting money and taking and drinking. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (1): No work. [break] Prabhupāda: ...getting rice, wheat from outside, they can charge any price because the price of grain is increasing. Indian man (1): Any time, they can stop it. Prabhupāda: You can stop it. (end) Press Conference -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius Prabhupāda: So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are trying to eradicate this conception of life, bodily conception of life. The animals... An animal, he is also thinking, "I am dog," "I am cat," "I am cow," "I am ass," on account of this bodily concept of life. And if we human beings, we also remain in that bodily concept of life, then we are no better than the animals. So if we remain animals, there cannot be any peace. You bring a dozens of dogs, and if you keep them, they cannot be improved. They will remain as animal. They have no capacity. And if you ask them to live peacefully, it is not possible, because they are animals. Similarly, if we human beings, although we are not animals, but we are not being educated as human being, and therefore we remain as animal, so how there can be any peace? The animal eats; we eat. The animal sleeps; we sleep. The animals have sex life; we have got sex life. The animal defends; we also defend. So if we remain engaged only on the principles of four demands of body, then we remain animal. Our extra education requires that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." And there is necessity of the soul. If we don't come to this platform, then we remain animals. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are trying to bring human being to the platform of spiritual consciousness or real human being. Guest (1) (Indian man): Are you striving for peace in the world? Is it one of your goals? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is trying for peace in the world. I have already referred to the United Nations organization. They are also trying peace of the world. But one must know the right way how to bring peace in the world. So our proposition is that if you keep the human being as good as animal, then how there can be peace? There cannot be any peace among animal society. (aside:) Aiye. Let him... Jaya. This is our proposal. So we are bringing these Europeans, Americans, Africans, Canadians, Australians to this platform of understanding, that "We are human being; we are not animals." The... First I have already explained. So long we shall remain in the bodily concept of life, then we remain animal. Guest (2) (Indian man): What was the necessity of creating this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Prabhupāda: Necessity is that the human form of life is meant for advanced education. Unfortunately, they are being educated to live like animals. That is the mistake. So we want to correct this mistake. Guest (2): But the spiritual organizations in India, all the spiritual teachings in India, have always put great emphasis on the fact that we are spiritual beings. So what was the necessity of creating another movement to say the same things? *Prabhupāda: No. We are... You have brought in the question of India. We are talking of the human society, so why you are bringing India? We are not talking about India only. Human being does not mean only Indian. You see, human being*-all, outside India, inside India, everywhere. Wherever there is human being, they require this education. And it is the India's duty. Because India has got the opportunity to be spiritually advanced by the grace of learned, saintly persons, so they should first of all make their life perfect by taking education and distribute the knowledge throughout the whole world. That is India's mission. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that... The exact word is Anyone who has taken birth in India as human being, he should first of all make his life perfect and... [break] ...no customer is coming, we go to sell our books. Yes. Guest (2): Have you had a significant impact on the American society? Prabhupāda: What is that? Brahmānanda: What is that? Guest (2): Have you had a significant impact on the American society? The values you preach, have they influenced Americans to a certain degree? Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. You can go in America, any country, any city, and everyone will know Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): That's not what I mean. What I mean is have Americans started to be less violent, for instance, or have they started to be less egotistical or... *Brahmānanda: Well, not unless they follow our movement. But those who have followed our movement... Recently there was one study that was published by a very eminent sociologist in America from the University of California, the (sic:) Union Theological Center, and he stated in that book that the members of this movement, formerly they were drug*-addicted hippies, and now they have become servants of Kṛṣṇa and humanity, loving servants. So he has given proof through intensive interviews that one who follows and joins this movement, dramatically his life becomes changed. Prabhupāda: Perfect. He is a big professor, and his books are being sold in higher circles. Professor Judah. And he has studied this movement for five years. And... You have got that book? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Show him. So they are appreciating. Appreciation has begun. Formerly they thought it is another edition of hippie movement, but now they are realizing it is not. A cultural. He has given the name of the book, Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. He is selling at the cost of twelve dollars; still, all high class, educated class, are purchasing. Guest (3) (Indian man): Have you any program for the common people? Prabhupāda: Yes. Common people have joined. Everyone. We are opening centers so that any common man from any caste, any creed, any nation, they can come and join. Guest (2): My friend, perhaps you would like to do... I know you are doing some social work for... *Prabhupāda: This is the best social work. We are making animal into man. Already I have begun this, that because they are not educated how to become human being, so they remain animals. So this is the best social work, that we are bringing animals, two*-legged animals, to real human being. If a human being is not properly educated, he remains an animal. So this is the proper education. Therefore we are bringing animals to human being. Guest (3): Has your movement arranged once any particular event which is a movement in a particular country? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. When we are many in number, then we shall take politics also. Yes. First of all let there be perfect men. If there is no perfect men, the government will be imperfect. If there is perfect men, the government will be perfect. Guest (4) (Indian man): Do you think, Swamiji, that man can become perfect? Prabhupāda: That is the chance of a human being. Therefore in the human society there is school, college, education, culture, not in the animal society, because they can be made into perfect, not the animals. So if they are denied proper education, that is the greatest harm. They got the opportunity, and the authorities are not giving them their opportunity. Guest (4): No, but do you mean the perfectness is to become God or to become the man? Then I want... Prabhupāda: You never become God. Guest (4): What does perfectness mean? Prabhupāda: Perfect means to become godly. Guest (1): Can you be interested directly in politics? *Prabhupāda: Why not? Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa was in politics. So He instructed Arjuna to fight. This is politic*-for a good cause. When Arjuna denied that "Kṛṣṇa, I am not willing to kill my, the other side, my brothers and my uncles," He chastised him that kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam: "How you are talking like non-Aryan? What is this nonsense?" He... Kutas tvā. First of all... Find out. Anārya. Anārya. He has said anārya. Ārya means advanced. Anārya means less advanced. Find out. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Chapter Two, Bhagavad*-gītā, text two: "The Supreme Person, Bhagavān, said: My dear Arjuna, how have these impurities come upon you? They are not at all befitting a man who knows the progressive values of life. They do not lead to higher planets, but to infamy." Prabhupāda: And purport? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport. "Kṛṣṇa and the Supreme Personality of Godhead are identical. Therefore Lord Kṛṣṇa is referred to as Bhagavān throughout the Gītā. Bhagavān is the ultimate in the Absolute Truth. Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding, namely Brahman, or the impersonal, all*-pervasive spirit; Paramātmā, or the localized aspect of the Supreme within the heart of all living entities; *and Bhagavān, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa. In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, this conception of the Absolute Truth is explained thus: *'The Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding by the knower of the Absolute Truth, and all of them are identical. Such phases of the Absolute Truth are expressed as Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān.' (Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, First Canto, Second Chapter, eleventh verse.) These three divine aspects can be explained by the example of the sun, which also has three different aspects, namely the sunshine, the sun's surface and the sun planet itself. One who understands the sunshine only is the preliminary student. One who understands the sun's surface is further advanced. And one who can enter into the sun planet is the highest. Ordinary students who are satisfied by simply understanding the sunshine, its universal pervasiveness and the glaring effulgence of its impersonal nature may be compared to those who can realize only the Brahman feature of the Absolute Truth. The student who has advanced still further can know the sun disc, which is compared to knowledge of the Paramātmā feature of the Absolute Truth. And the student who can enter into the heart of the sun planet is compared to those who realize the personal features of the Supreme Absolute Truth. Therefore the bhaktas, or the transcendentalists who have realized the Bhagavān feature of the Absolute Truth, are the topmost transcendentalists, although all students who are engaged in the study of the Absolute Truth are engaged in the same subject matter. The sunshine, the sun disc and the inner affairs of the sun planet cannot be separated from one another, and yet the students of the three different phases are not in the same category. The Sanskrit word bhagavān is explained by the great authority Parāśara Muni, the father of Vyāsadeva. The Supreme Personality who possesses all riches, all strength, all fame, all beauty, all knowledge and all renunciation is called Bhagavān. There are many persons who are very rich, very powerful, very beautiful, very famous, very learned, and very much detached, but no one can claim that he possesses all riches, all strength, etc., entirely. Only Kṛṣṇa can claim this because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. No living entity, including Brahmā, Lord Śiva or Nārāyaṇa, can possess opulences as fully as Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is concluded in the Brahma-saṁhitā by Lord Brahmā himself that Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. No one is equal to or above Him. He is the primeval Lord, or Bhagavān, known as Govinda, and He is the supreme cause of all causes. 'There are many personalities possessing the qualities of Bhagavān, but Kṛṣṇa is the supreme because none can excel Him. He is the Supreme Person, and His body is eternal, full of knowledge and bliss. He is the primeval Lord Govinda and the cause of all causes.' (Bs. Fifth Chapter, first verse.) In the *Bhāgavatam* also there is a list of many incarnations of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but Kṛṣṇa is described as the original Personality of Godhead, from whom many, many incarnations and Personalities of Godhead expand: *'All the lists of the incarnations of Godhead submitted herewith are either plenary expansions or parts of the plenary expansions of the Supreme Godhead, but Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself.' (Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, First Canto, Third Chapter, twenty-eighth verse.) Therefore Kṛṣṇa is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Abss PURolute Truth, the source of both the Supersoul and the impersonal Brahman. In the presence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Arjuna's lamentation for his kinsmen is certainly unbecoming, and therefore Kṛṣṇa expressed His surprise with the word kutas, 'wherefrom.' Such unmanly sentiments were never expected from a person belonging to the civilized class of men known as Aryans. The word ārya is applicable to persons who know the value of life and have a civilization based on spiritual realization. Persons who are led by the material conception of life do not know that the aim of life is realization of the Absolute Truth, Viṣṇu or Bhagavān, and they are captivated by the external features of the material world, and therefore they do not know what liberation is. Persons who have no knowledge of liberation from material bondage are called non-Aryans. Although Arjuna was a kṣatriya, he was deviating from his prescribed duties by declining to fight. This act of cowardice is described as befitting the non-Aryans. Such deviation from duty does not help one in the progress of spiritual life, nor does it even give one the opportunity to become famous in this world. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not approve of the so-called compassion of Arjuna for his kinsmen." Prabhupāda: So this movement is to make the people Aryan. Guest (2): Telling... (microphone moving) Let's say, people who fight for their rights, the blacks in the United States or... Prabhupāda: ...for the kṣatriya? Kṣatriya means one who gives protection from being hurt, kṣat. Kṣat means hurting. So suppose if I unnecessarily hurt you, then it is the duty of the government to give you protection. So unless I am also punished by violence, I cannot..., He cannot give you protection. So this is also necessary. Therefore in the society there must be kṣatriya. The brāhmaṇas should be learned; they should give instruction, advice. The kṣatriyas should give protection; the vaiśyas should produce, economic development; and rest, they should assist-śūdras, that's all. This is the program of Aryan society. Guest (5) (Indian man): How long do you expect to stay in Mauritius? Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda is leaving Sunday for Durban and Johannesburg. Guest (5): And the others? Brahmānanda: They will stay here. We're making a center here. Guest (1): Have you any program of Swamiji for the common mass? Brahmānanda: Here in the evenings. Prabhupāda: Actually I want to speak only to the intelligent... [break] ...the common mass, they will not understand. But we can perform kīrtana for the common men, so that they may be purified. Guest (1): Excuse me. I mean in your presence there must be some program like kīrtana or... *Prabhupāda: Anyway, this idea of society, of your culture, general mass of people, especially nowadays, it is very difficult. So if the leaders understand*-yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 3.21]-then the common mass will follow. Guest (3): Yes, but here in Mauritius, most of the people are of Indian origin. It is easy for them to understand Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Therefore I say the Indian, the leading Indians here, if they make a program, the common will follow. And everything is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā, how society should be conducted. Guest (3): But I think, Swamiji, common men follow only swamis, not the leaders or the priests. *Prabhupāda: The idea is: the common men, they expect something, especially Indians, that India has got some spiritual culture. So every human being is seeking after spiritual culture, but unfortunately, at the present moment they are doing something which is not very desirable, the so*-called swamis and yogis. I do not wish to describe them. Guest (2): Does your haircut have any particular significance? Brahmānanda: The shaving of the head is a sign of surrender to the spiritual master, and we leave the śikhā... *Prabhupāda: And keep the head light instead of unnecessarily burdened. In the Kali*-yuga there is a symptom. It is stated in the... Lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam: "In the Kali-yuga people will think by keeping long hairs he has become beautiful." This is the mentality of this age. Lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam. You can write this. Lāvaṇyam means luster, and keśa-dhāraṇam means keeping hair. Guest (3): By preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness would you condemn other people's beliefs? Prabhupāda: We must condemn anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious. We say... I don't condemn; Kṛṣṇa condemns. Duṣkṛtinaḥ means sinful; and mūḍhāḥ means rascals, asses; and narādhamāḥ means lowest of the mankind; *and māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ means their knowledge has been taken by māyā; *and āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ means atheist class. So this class of men will never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So if one is not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, we immediately take them either of these: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna. This is our stand. Guest (3): No, suppose someone follower of... (loud static) Prabhupāda: But he does not know who is the Supreme God. Guest (3): But Swamiji, Indian culture, although is (Hindi). Then why you are telling a king... Prabhupāda: Indian culture is given (Hindi), that to allow them to worship the demigods means at least to accept the authority, and then they gradually come to the supreme authority. Just like for the common man, to give respect to the police constable means giving respect to the government. But the police constable is not the president of the government. So one should know who is the president. That is advancement. If you remain, simply offering respect to the constable, that is not advancement. Guest (4): Indian philosophy has always taught that light comes from many lamps. But you are preaching that... Prabhupāda: What is that? Brahmānanda: He says Indian culture has always taught that light comes from many lamps. Guest (4): But you are preaching... (loud static) Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the supreme light. There are degrees of light. There is sunlight, and there is this light. You cannot compare this light with sun. (laughter) Light are so many, but that does not mean the sunlight and this light is the same. Guest (4): No, what I... Prabhupāda: First of all you understand this. You have questioned about the light. First of all you understand there are degrees of light. You cannot say this light and the sunlight is the same. Guest (4): By this, you mean that those who adopt the teachings coming from the Koran or from the Bible is lesser light than from the *Gītā*? Prabhupāda: That is your business. That is your business. But we give you the idea that light comes from everywhere. There is one glowworm. That light also light, and the sunlight is also light. You cannot think that the glowworm's light and the sunlight is the same. Now it is your business to see which is glowworm light and which is sunlight. That is your business. Guest (6) (Indian man): It has been eloquently argued particularly in Third World countries that your movement is under the wing of a certain imperialist countries. Do you...? Brahmānanda: He said that there is some allegation that our movement is connected with certain imperialistic countries. Prabhupāda: Let them say all nonsense. What can I do? Every nonsense will speak something nonsense. How can I check it? There are so many nonsenses, and therefore we are trying to make all these nonsense into human beings. That is our program. So long he is a nonsense, he will go on speaking nonsense. What can I do? *Guest (4): Swamiji, one thing I want to know. This śloka, from where you have got it, this śloka, lāvaṇyaṁ keśa*-dhāraṇam? This śloka, lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is in the third chapter of Twelfth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Have you got our Bhāgavata, Twelfth Canto? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't have it with me. *Prabhupāda: So you can note down. There are many things, that, that dāmpatye ratim eva hi: "A family life means sex life." And lāvaṇyaṁ keśa*-dhāraṇam. All these symptoms which are now going on, that is foretold five thousand years ago in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Svīkāra eva hi udvāhe: "Marriage will be by agreement." These things are there. That I have... *Indian man: (indistinct*-loud static) Prabhupāda: No, but just like you know in the rainy season there will be heavy rainfall, but you can protect yourself. You can get raincoat, you can get umbrella. Then you will... [break] So you cannot stop the rainy season, but you can protect yourself. [break] ...so many Africans. We have many Africans, devotees. Guest (3): Yes. Americans. Prabhupāda: Yes. Have you got any picture? Brahmānanda: We have photographs of our temples in Kenya. Cyavana: We have about thirty disciples in Nairobi, Africans. Brahmānanda: You should see the film. Cyavana: Yes. Brahmānanda: If you come this evening, we have a nice film about our movement all over the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. We go interior to African village. Guest (4): Swamiji, can I ask a question? How old are you, or, maybe I should say, how young are you? Prabhupāda: Eighty years old. Eighty. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Here is one black American, a sannyāsī in the renounced order of life. [break] Prabhupāda: ...the bodily concept of life, he is no more African, no more American. He is spirit soul. [break] Guest (2): ...Swamiji, a very personal question. How would you react when people give you a godly reception? Prabhupāda: Hm? Brahmānanda: He asks, "When you get a godly reception, when you come to a place, how does your..., receive it?" Prabhupāda: Because I am representative of God, therefore they must give me godly reception. It is reception to God. Just like if you receive one ambassador from a country, then that means giving honor to that country. It is not my personal reception; *it is acknowledging the glories of the Lord. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. It is said, "If you please God's representative, then God is pleased." Guest (2): Thank you, Swamiji. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- October 3, 1975, Mauritius Prabhupāda: ...that I shall be happy in this material world, he'll not be able to take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Cyavana: The slightest tinge of a material desire will force him to take another body. Is that it? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa will give him full advantage of enjoying this material world. Unless he is disgusted, he cannot. He'll not become disgusted. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up this." Personally, he is not going to be disgusted. māyā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa personally asks him, "Give up this business." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. But we are thinking, "Eh! Why this man asking like this? Sarva-dharmān parityajya. I shall give up my business, I shall give up my family, I shall give up my country and simply surrender to Him? Oh, it is too much. Sophisticated." What is called? "Sophistry." What is sophistry? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sophistry? Prabhupāda: Yes? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Half wise, half foolish. Brahmānanda: Sophistry means some... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: ... philosophy that is not sound. Superficial. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... That is the remark of Dr. Rādhākrishnan, when Kṛṣṇa said like that. That means "He... Too much," because he thinks, "Kṛṣṇa is..., may be a very big man, but He's a man. Why He is asking like that?" [break] ...first business is to give him always miseries so that he may be disgusted. But he is so foolish, he is not becoming disgusted. Everyone knows this is very troublesome world, but nobody is disgusted. Cyavana: He's like the horse who chases after the carrot. He never gets it, but still, he keeps trying for it. He never gives up. He keeps trying. *Prabhupāda: There are many examples. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā. Only for this fault, gṛha*-vratānām-"I shall be happy in this material world." In Delhi, we established that center. You had been there? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ananda... Brahmānanda: Ananda Niketan. Prabhupāda: Full of foreign embassies. So nobody came. Brahmānanda: They came the first night, and that was it. Prabhupāda: Nobody came. Brahmānanda: Neither were they very friendly. Prabhupāda: They thought that "We are living so nicely, embassy and ambassador, and living in such a nice house, comfortably. What is this nonsense, God?" All these embassies and the ambassadors, they are prized post. It has no use. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're what, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Prized post only. Governors, the embassies, this is... These are invented to satisfy the agitators, politicians, because the opposite party will agitate. Brahmānanda: So give them some house and some post. Prabhupāda: Yes. Give them some. That's all. It has no use. They do not do anything. Simply hold that post and get nice house, nice salary, servants, honor, and sometimes they are called and make some speech. That's all. And whatever nonsense he may be, if he is governor, then everyone will respect him. That's all. And as soon as the same man is not governor, nobody goes to kick on his face. I have seen so many governors. When they retire, nobody... (aside:) Where is that cap? Nobody cares. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is this desire for material happiness the cause of material attachment? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare. When they forget to serve Kṛṣṇa and wants to enjoy this material world... Don't you see that these Māyāvādī philosophers are trying for liberation, and still, they are expecting to become God. That is another desire. Daridra*-nārāyaṇa. The high ambition, to become God or equal to God, that is going on, struggle for existence. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What about these rascals like Sai Baba? They use Kṛṣṇa's philosophy, and then they twist it in such a way that it becomes Māyāvāda. Prabhupāda: No, no. He's a cheater. People want to be cheated. They come to sādhu for some material benefit. Don't you see that people are so much anxious to touch the feet of a sādhu? What is the reason? Reason is that if he gets some favor of the sādhu, "Then I shall be happy materially." That's all. They have no idea, becoming servant of Kṛṣṇa. Āśīrvāda (Hindi). Brahmānanda: Swami(?) Deji(?) once told me he once wanted your āśīrvāda. I didn't know what the word meant. He was shocked. "You don't know what āśīrvāda is?" It was like I did not know anything because I did not know that. It means to take the benefit from the guru. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if he's a real guru, then the real benefit will be there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: To be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Harikeśa: Do you want another cover, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. This is all right. [break] ...the male, that one. Brahmānanda: The red one? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also male. [break] ...for their family. Gṛha*-vratānām. Wife, children, they are also enjoying. Viṣayaḥ khalu... This wife and children and material happiness he will get in any form of life. So if the human life is also the same thing, then where is the benefit? But they are proud that "The... They are loitering on the..., without any home. We have constructed this home. Therefore we are advanced." This is their philosophy. The business is the same. "That's all right. But we are improved." This is advancement. Business is the punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], the same sex, same eating, the same sleeping, same defending, but in an improved way. Even in the heavenly planet, wherever you go, the same thing, simply... Just like this country and Europe, the standard of living different, but the business is the same. And the... When they improve or so-call improve the standard of living, they think, "Now we are advanced." And what about your death? (aside:) Stop. The chicken is also dying; you are also dying. What is your improvement? That they cannot say. Real problem they cannot solve. Simply a little high standard of living, and they think this is advancement. And the Western civilization is influencing all other parts of the world in that way-"Improve the standard of living." There is no improvement, but it is māyā; they are thinking, "This is improvement." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Progress. Prabhupāda: Progress, yes. The progress is that they have got motorcar, and they have progressed how to die quickly. This is the progress. At any moment he can die. As soon as he on the car, 70 miles speed, that means taking the risk of dying at any moment. This is the progress. Formerly people were going in bullock cart or horse carriage from one village to another. "That was primitive. Now we can go hundred miles away from home for earning money and taking risk to die at any moment. That is progress." Is it not? Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Formerly they were satisfied by tilling the ground, getting food grains. Now they have started factories. At the cost of thousands of men's labor, some director is getting money and enjoying life. That is progress. And these rascals, laborers, they are thinking that "These men are getting the profit, cream of this business. We are working. Why not take ourself?" That is Communism. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is one small coal mining town we did saṅkīrtana at, an Indian community. And they were thinking that "The coal mine is doing everything for us. They're giving us schools, they're giving us medicine, they're giving us... Without the coal mine where would we be?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Here they think it's sugarcane. The sugarcane is everything. Prabhupāda: Giving everything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why can't people understand to depend on Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: There is māyā. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like air that we breathe. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is māyā, no education. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are giving intelligence; therefore they are understanding. But there is no such propaganda. There was no such propaganda. Brahmānanda: One of those reporters yesterday was saying "Well, there's so many philosophies from India. Why have you started this one?" But actually no other philosophy has given this message. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that "Why you are bringing India? The whole world is in darkness." (to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Good morning. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a verse in the *Bhāgavatam*, Prabhupāda. Yenātmā suprasīdati: "By rendering devotional service to the transcendental Lord, one becomes completely satisfied." So what happens? These people in material life, they come to the temples and they chant a little bit. But they find that the standard of pure devotional service is so high that they're not able to grasp it. They don't feel the complete satisfaction. They're still attached to the material world. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is compared with the jaundice disease. Jaundice disease, for jaundice, sugarcane is the medicine. But they taste sugarcane as bitter. Sugarcane... One who is suffering in jaundice will taste sugarcane as bitter. That is the test. So that is the medicine. So he has to take the sugarcane. And by taking, when he is cured he will find, "Oh, it is very sweet." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then he has to recognize there is some problem living in this material world. Prabhupāda: No. He does not find any happiness on account of his too much materialistic mind. Brahmānanda: That is the disease. *Prabhupāda: That is the disease. So it has to be cured by this bhakti*-yoga. So in the bhakti-yoga, in the beginning, it will taste bitter. Therefore they do not come. But if they take to bhakti-yoga, then the material disease will be cured and they will find it is very sweet. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So the more people try to enjoy materially, they become more and more unhappy. *Prabhupāda: We are in the material world means everyone is diseased. [break] māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ, duṣkṛtinaḥ [Bg. 7.15]. This is described. This is the material disease. I explained how they are committing sinful life: slaughterhouse, this liquor house and so many things, simply sinful. And they do not know they are going to suffer again in another body. He's going to be slaughtered next life. "Life for life." You are taking life, so many lives; you have to give so many times life. Take birth and become killed. Take birth and become killed." There is no knowledge. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes people ask, Prabhupāda, that if one falls down into lower species of life like plants or animals, how then do they come again to the human form of life? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nature's way. Give them again chance to develop. From trees they become flies. That is the beginning of movement. Then from flies to birds, birds to beast, and beast to animal, er, human being. This is great chastisement. You cannot move even. Suffer torrents of rain, cyclone, scorching heat, pinching cold. Stand up for hundreds and thousands of years. Then, when the punishment is finished, then he becomes moving. If there is scorching heat he can move to some shelter. But he cannot move. They do not study all this science, why there are so many varieties of life, of different grades. Wherefrom they are coming? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The living entity, then, in the tree is actually conscious of its condition of life. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The living entity inside the tree is actually conscious of its condition of life. Prabhupāda: Not advanced consciousness, but he is conscious. He feels. He feels. Harikeśa: It shocked a lot of people when they made the test of bringing a scissor to a plant, and they put some electrodes on it and they found that the plant was reacting with fear. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That machine has been discovered by Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose. He discovered this wireless telegram, radio. But Marconi took from him, and British government helped him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The British again. *Prabhupāda: Britishers were advertising outside India that "Indians are uncivilized. Therefore we are making them civilized. Therefore we should stay there. Don't object." Because United Nations, they were asking, "Why you are occupying India?" So they used to forward this argument, that "These people are uncivilized. We are making them civilized." (laughter) Now, how there should be Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose? Therefore they used to suppress always. Everything Indian wanted to do, they would suppress: big businesses, this mining... They would suppress. This Morarji, Sumati Morarji, her father*-in-law started that... He had to face so many impediments from the Britishers to start the shipping company. Formerly there was no shipping company, Indian. Now, before that, there was shipping, not shipping company, but navigation was there from India to Rome, Greece, Turkey, there was regular business of spices and fine cloth. Later on, this large-scale shipping industry, that was done by the Europeans. So when Indian wanted to start, they would supress. The Tata iron industry, he had to face so many difficulties. Formerly, even if you wanted to bring some iron frame, it would come from Sheffield. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From where? Prabhupāda: Sheffield. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, England. *Prabhupāda: England. So everything Indian required, they would supply, and they would govern and they would exploit. Therefore they became so rich*-simply by exploiting India. And Indian soldiers, they expanded empire-Africa, Burma. That's all, all Indian exploitation, Indian men, money, and exploitation. As soon as they lost India, they lost whole empire. Cyavana: Now they are also suffering. Prabhupāda: Eh? That... That must be. They will be suffering more and more. They will be beggars. They have done so much sinful activities for expanding their empire. Now they will have to become beggars. And within two hundred years, everything finished. They started their exploitation from seventeenth, eighteenth century. And in the twentieth century, everything finished. The French people and the English people... This is also one of the examples. Both the nations came here to exploit. That was the competition in... The French people and the English people, they would go for colonization, fight, and establi... America was also that, Canada, everywhere. But because they were their own men, they were given dominion status. Almost free. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Greedy. Very greedy. Brahmānanda: At one time all of Africa was controlled by the European nations. Completely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mainly these French and... Brahmānanda: French, British, Germans, Portuguese, Dutch, Spanish. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In South Africa, the British also tried to take over South Africa. There was a war called the Boer War. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So during World War I and World War II many of the South Africans, they actually sided with the Germans because they were against the English so much. Prabhupāda: African means black Africans. No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. South Africans, they were Europeans. The British started the first concentration camp. They took these "Afrikaners" as they call them, Europeans. They put them on an island called St. Helena. That was actually the first concentration camp, by the British. Prabhupāda: This is going on. Still, even the opposite party, they are not disgusted-"This material life is not very peaceful." They are not disgusted. Brahmānanda: Now they are thinking, "We'll be independent..." *Prabhupāda: Yes. That... They are trying to be independent. And India... Just like India has got independent, and now the position is "emergency." They do not think in this way, that "Independence or dependence, we are actually dependent under the laws of nature." That they do not think. They are thinking... The same example as I gave, that "This boil is here. Why not here? It is very painful," like that. They have no sense that so*-called dependence or independence, he has to suffer. That he does not know. Mūḍha nābhijānāti. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains, vāsudeva sarvam iti, that He is everything and that He is everywhere. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So this verse, mūḍho 'ya nābhijānāti, that the mūḍhas, they can't perceive Kṛṣṇa. So actually it's simply that we're covered, isn't it? But Kṛṣṇa is always there. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is always there, but yogamāyā*-samāvṛtaḥ. He does not know Kṛṣṇa on account of being covered by the curtain of yogamāyā. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. But we can make them all happy by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if they follow our instruction, even in this material world. Pūrṇaṁ sukhāyate. Full happiness we can give them if they follow our principle. Cyavana: They have so many doubts. *Prabhupāda: What is the doubt? Doubt means they cannot drink, they cannot continue slaughterhouse, they cannot continue brothels. That's all. This is their doubt, that "How these things will be maintained? This is our life." That is doubt, and that is the difficulty. As soon as we say, "No this," oh, they are in danger. Even Marquis of Zetland, "Oh, it is impossible to give up. This is our life." There is the difficulty. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. They cannot think of, especially the Westerners, that without these things one can live. So many, our disciples, left. Rāyarāma left: "Oh, Swamiji is denying the preliminary necessities of life." This is the preliminary necessities of life: illicit sex, meat*-eating, drinking, gambling. They cannot think that a man can live without these things. Therefore people are wonderful, that "How he is turning these Europeans, Americans to this standard?" That is their wonder. Nobody can think of, that these things can be given up and one can avoid it. It is dream. Your government, American government, is also surprised that "We have spent so much money for stopping this LSD, and this man by saying his disciples, they are giving up." Judah has also mentioned that. That is their surprise-"How these things can be given up? It is impossible." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You once said in Geneva that no one has died by giving up smoking. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually that is the fact. You have given up these four bad things, and what is your wrong, harm? Rather, you have become bright*-faced. But they will not give it up. They think, "It is impossible." Brahmānanda: They say we have just undergone some religious conversion and become fanatical, and therefore we have given up. Prabhupāda: No, why don't you become fanatical? (laughter) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Although it says in the Bible even that one should praise the Lord's name with cymbals and drums... Prabhupāda: They have no concern with Bible and God and everything. They are simply after sense gratification. What is the use of quoting about Bible? They don't care for Bible. The Europeans, Americans, they have rejected, thrown away, kicked out Bible because (it is) unscientific. Actually they do not accept. Although they call themselves Christian, they do not accept anything of Bible. That is... Bible is finished. There is no meaning of Bible. Simply for their sectarian prestige, they say "Bible." But actually they have nothing to do with Bible. What do you think? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's true. Prabhupāda: They do not go to the church, but they come to us for arguing with Bible. Just see. What is the meaning? Their churches have closed, nobody goes, and they come to argue with us with Bible. That means "The Devil cites scripture." They are devils, and they are quoting from Bible. Devotee (2): So many people who come to our program, they are Christians. There may be 75% who come. They are all Christians. Prabhupāda: That's all right. We don't discriminate whether he is Christian. We take everyone as human being, welcome. So what do they say? They also quote Bible? Devotee (2): They say that their priests tell them, "You just listen to me and forget about the Bible." Prabhupāda: And who are you? Then I can say also, "You hear me. Forget about Bible." Anyone can say. Why the priest? Wherefrom the priest has come? Has he dropped from the sky? (laughter) That's it. Everyone can say, "My dear priest, you hear me. Don't talk of yourself. You hear me." Everyone can say. Then? How things will be adjusted? The priest is also a man; I am also man. If he can say like that, I can say like that. Then who will make adjustment? Who is correct? Hm? How it will be adjusted? If everyone will propose something, and who will say, "Now, out of so many proposals, this is correct." That means chaotic condition. If everyone says, "What I say, you hear." Then who will hear? Everyone will say only. Who will hear? That is going on actually. And rascal Vivekananda says, "Everyone's opinion is good." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yathā mat tathā path. Prabhupāda: Yathā mat tathā path. This is going on. Everyone will say something, and it is all right. However nonsense it may be, it is all right. Even Gandhi followed that philosophy. Therefore he invented one, another philosophy, nonviolence, which is impossible. When Hindus approached him, that "You have got so much influence over the Mohammedans, so why not stop cow killing?" he said, "It is their religious principle. How can I interfere?" Just see. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya. Kṛṣṇa orders in Bhagavad-gītā, go-rakṣya. *Prabhupāda: And he is considered to be a great scholar in Bhagavad*-gītā, and when cow protection was requested, he said that "How can I do it? It is their religious principle." And he is a great big scholar in Bhagavad-gītā. All nonsense, going on. Whole world is full of nonsense, mūḍhas, beginning from Gandhi to any rascal, all of them, rascals. Perhaps it is the first time we are detecting, "Here are all rascals." It is first time. Then we are enemy of everyone. We call everyone rascal-Gandhi rascal, Vivekananda rascal, Aurobindo rascal. So actually they are, but people are thinking, "These people say all big, big men rascals? Therefore they are rascals." Cyavana: The average man doesn't have the intelligence to discriminate between an intelligent man and a fool. He will listen to anyone. *Prabhupāda: No, we have got this from the standard test tube, Kṛṣṇa. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is duṣkṛtina, mūḍha. That's all. We have no difficulty. Just like that urine test? We have got... One who has got that testing paper, red, yellow and so on, so on... So we have got this testing paper, Bhagavad*-gītā. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] Prabhupāda, Lord Caitanya's weapons were His associates. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's weapons were His associates. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sāṅgopāngāstra-pārṣadam. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, gaurāṅgera saṅgi-gaṇe, nitya-siddha kori māne: "All the associates of Lord Caitanya, they are ever liberated." Nitya-siddha kori māne. "Anyone accepts the assistants of Lord Caitanya as ever liberated*-he also becomes liberated, simply by accepting the associates of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu who is helping Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, simply by accepting this, the man who is accepting, he becomes liberated." Se jāy brajendra-nanda pāś. Gaurāṅgera saṅgi-gaṇe, nitya-siddha kori māne, se jāy brajendra-nanda pāś. Cyavana: This is the way to go up. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...this is a fact, that our Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the topmost yoga, and preach it. This is a fact. Except we, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, nobody knows anything-all mūḍhas. Any association, any religion*-all mūḍhas. But you must prove yourself. Otherwise it will be bigotry. If you simply say that "We are only first class" without any knowledge... You have to defend yourself. There will be so many opposing elements. Then you become first class. Your position is first class, but you have to maintain it. Otherwise, they will say "religious fanatics." Any opposition party, you have to meet. That is required. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to sit for some time here, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] (Devotees have been teasing Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa in background regarding his suggestion) He said, "Don't bring milk when water is required." I was just asking, you know. Harikeśa: Don't bring milk when water is required. You have given the example. Prabhupāda: Don't bring milk? Devotees: When water is required. Prabhupāda: Oh. Cyavana: But he was thinking that it would be very nice to sit there with Śrīla Prabhupāda. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, no. No, I wasn't. I was thinking of Prabhupāda's satisfaction. You're thinking what I'm thinking... *Prabhupāda: You are right. He was right. That is service. Before wanting, that is... That is all right. "Now let the master refuse it." But service is: before he asks, the thing should be offered. That is service. After asking, offering something, that is second*-class service. First-class service, before he wants, "Here is the thing, ready." That is first-class service. Now it is his liking. He may not like that. He may ask something else. But the service must be offered. And your example, milk and water, is not applicable here. I did not ask him either milk or water. (laughter) So your example is futile. Cyavana: Perfect. Prabhupāda: So don't be discouraged. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda. I'll never leave your lotus feet. They asked you about other movements yesterday at the press conference... Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...this movement and that movement. You said, "This is Kṛṣṇa's movement." So this should be our line of argument, because especially amongst the Indian community, when they question us about this swami and that swami... Prabhupāda: They replied that in everything there is light. And yes, the light of, what is called, glowworm and the light of sun is not the same. Everything is light; *that doesn't... We haven't got to accept so*-called lights. Even there is light, when there is sunlight, why you should aspire after glow of light? (People chanting in background) Who is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? Cyavana: Everyone is saying Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Rāma Hare Rāma. (laughter) Devotee (2): So all those sinful activities of these people have been eradicted now by saying Hare Rāma? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Immediately. That is the special advantage of this age. Kirtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ [SB 12.3.51]. Immediately becomes free, mukta-saṅga. Without becoming mukta-saṅga, they cannot chant even. Why others are not chanting, they are chanting? Devotee (2): But the same... That means they will make more sinful activities? Prabhupāda: If he does, that is another thing. Otherwise, for the time being, he is freed from all the reaction of sinful, immediately. Sadyaḥ savanāya kalpate. Sadya, immediately. Immediately he becomes brāhmaṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is pious activity on the material platform? *Prabhupāda: No, no. It is transcendental, above pious activity. By accumulation of pious activities one may be elevated to the transcendental position. Kṛta*-puṇya-puñjāḥ [SB 10.12.11]. Puṇya means pious activities. After doing for many, many years simply pious activities one may be elevated to the transcendental platform. So pious activities cannot be compared with transcendental activities. But it may help in the long run. Therefore transcendental activities does not depend on pious activity. It is not dependent. Then it will take long, long years. But automatically he becomes pious, achieves the result of pious activities. Cyavana: [break] ...the standard of morality, Arjuna's activity of killing was immoral. Prabhupāda: Morality, immorality, this is all creation of mind. Real purpose of life, to serve the order of Kṛṣṇa, that is real morality. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think that we must all be kṛpa*-siddhi, because by your mercy you have lifted us out of hellish conditions of life. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's mercy. You have accepted Kṛṣṇa's mercy. This is the... [break] This empirical policy was very good, provided it would have been done for Kṛṣṇa. Then they could unite the whole world. Brahmānanda: They had very good managing talent. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. But the whole thing was planned for their own sense gratification. Brahmānanda: Exploitation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If we ever had any kind of power like that and tried to do something like that, they would accuse that this is like the Crusades. Prabhupāda: Now, Crusades, even... If they could expand the ideas of Christian, love of Godhead, that was nice. But that was not the purpose. It is exploitation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even by force? Prabhupāda: Yes. By force if you give some good medicine, that is good for him. In my childhood I would not take medicine. Exactly like this, now also. (laughter) So I was given medicine by force in the spoon. Two men will catch me and my mother take me on the lap and then force and I shall take. I never agreed to take any medicine. Harikeśa: Should we do that now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Then you'll kill me. Harikeśa: You would not go to school either. Prabhupāda: I don't like... Yes. Harikeśa: You were telling us last year, you wanted to play mṛdaṅga. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The bus is coming. Prabhupāda: [break] ...disagreement between my father and mother. My father would give me all independence, and mother was going that "You are spoiling the child by giving too much independence." Harikeśa: Just see. Prahupada: That is going on. Just like mother Yaśodā. She would chastise Kṛṣṇa. But you will never find Nanda Mahārāja is ever chastising. Rather, when Kṛṣṇa was chastised, Nanda Mahārāja would come back and take Him on the lap: "All right, I shall punish Your mother," and call him (her?), chastise. And then Kṛṣṇa will stop His mouth: "No, no. Don't do this." It is natural that when the child is in the lower stage, minor stage, the mother takes more care. That is natural. [break] Such a big planet, sun, six months rotating on the northern side of the equator, six months on the southern side. It is never changed. Why? Brahmānanda: It's an accident. (laughs) Cyavana: The sun doesn't change? Prabhupāda: No, the uttarāyana. Now it is passing on the northern... Brahmānanda: Now it's on the southern? Prabhupāda: Southern side, dakṣiṇāyana, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The scientists say that the earth is actually tilting back and forth like this, that the sun is not... Prabhupāda: Why it is tilting, rascal? Stop it. Cyavana: No. Every time is perfect. Prabhupāda: That is my question. That is answered in Brahma... Yasyājñayā, by the order of Govinda it is being done. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The seasons are changing. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ. The orbit fixed up to the sun by the order of Govinda, that is being followed by him. Devotee (2): Does the heat of the sun increase or decrease through the ages? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is in the hand of Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they are thinking He is just a historical figure. Prabhupāda: Therefore they're rascals. Why do you say like that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. Brahmānanda: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Morning Walk -- October 4, 1975, Mauritius Cyavana: ...convert the Hindus to Christianity, the children. [break] Prabhupāda: ...Christian missionaries. They are trying to convert others, but they are closing their churches. They are selling their churches to us. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Finding new suckers. In South Africa they put up big paṇḍāls, and because the Indian people, they have no entertainment in the evening, so they go there and they are entertained, and they learn how to sing the hymns that they have. Then you find that the children are singing the hymns because that's the songs that they're learning. If we can provide entertainment like that in the form of saṅkīrtana, then they'll also sing Hare Kṛṣṇa and become devotees of Kṛṣṇa. [break] Prabhupāda: ...own Christian priests, they asked me that "Why Christianity is dwindling? What we have done?" So I told them, "What you have not done?" (laughter) Cyavana: Yes. Prabhupāda: "You have violated from the very beginning the orders of Christ, 'Thou shall not kill,' and you are killing, only killing. So what you have not done?" Devotee 1: They say that man has to dominate over the animals. They should... Prabhupāda: Therefore you should kill and eat them. Very good reasoning. "The father should dominate over children; therefore the children should be killed and eaten up." So rascals, and they are professing religious leaders. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, if every moment we are killing in breathing and walking and doing so many things, and then it says, "Thou shalt not kill," so then hasn't God given us an instruction which is impossible? *Prabhupāda: No. Conscientiously you should not. But unconsciously, if you do, that is excused. [break] ...na punar baddhyate(?). Āhlādinī-śakti, it is pleasure potency. So pleasure potency is not painful to Kṛṣṇa. But it is painful. It is painful to us, conditioned souls. This Golden Moon (name of a bar?), everyone comes there for pleasure, but he is becoming implicated in sinful activities. Therefore it is not pleasure. It will give him pain, so many aftereffects. Sex life, even it is not illicit, still, it is painful, aftereffects. You'll have to take care of the children. You have to bear children. That is painful. You have to pay to the hospital for delivery, then education, then doctor's bill*-so many painful. So this pleasure, sex pleasure, is followed by so many painful things. Tāpa-karī. The same pleasure potency is there in the living being in little quantity, and as soon as they utilize it, it becomes painful. And the same pleasure potency in the spiritual world, Kṛṣṇa's dancing with gopīs, that is not painful. That is pleasing. [break] ...man, if he takes nice foodstuff it is painful. If a diseased man, if he takes... Cyavana: He becomes more sick. *Prabhupāda: More sick. Therefore this life is meant for tapasya, not to accept*-voluntarily reject. Then it is nice. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...ments today are supporting the most outrageous sinful activities. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The governments today are supporting the most outrageous, sinful activities. So how is it possible to reform the general mass of people? Prabhupāda: Do you mean to say the government is perfect? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Then? They must be moved. Government means, nowadays, all rascals. They are elected by rascals and they are rascals. That is the difficulty. Everywhere you go, you will meet only rascals. Manda. The definition is given, manda. Even in our camp there are so many rascals. Just see the report. Even they have come to be reformed, they are rascals. They cannot give up their rascal habits. Therefore it has been generalized, manda: "all bad." But only difference is that in our camp the bad's are being reformed; *outside there is no reforming. There is hope of their being good, but outside there is no hope. That is the difference. Otherwise everyone is bad. Without any discrimination you can say. Mandāḥ sumanda*-matayo [SB 1.1.10]. Now, how the government will be good? This is also bad. Mahāprabhu's name is Patita-pāvana; *He is delivering all bad men. In the Kali-yuga there is no good men at all*-all bad. Strong you will have to become to deal with all bad men. [break] The seaweeds are there even in the middle ocean. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Cyavana: They call it Sargasso. The call it the Sargasso Sea. It floats in the center of the ocean, seaweed. [break] Prabhupāda: ...the fort? Cyavana: Just straight ahead, where the ship is there. There are two ships there. Prabhupāda: There. Cyavana: Yes. That's where they come in. Prabhupāda: This is not. Cyavana: No, the next, where the white ship is. Devotee 1: Very small. *Cyavana: Not so small. They've had as many as thirty*-five or forty, not all in the berths but in the harbor. They bring everything in from overseas, and then they take out the sugar cane. Prabhupāda: Oh. Generally they come from Europe? *Cyavana: Everywhere, all over the world. They trade with the whole world*-America, Hong Kong, Japan. [break] Prabhupāda: They are collecting fish? Cyavana: These little clams they eat. Inside the shell there's a slug they eat, meat. [break] *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...translated now Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Will you also maybe translate Caitanya-bhāgavata? [break] ...by, Lord Caitanya's fame will spread all over the world. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: As time goes by, Lord Caitanya's fame will spread all over the world. Prabhupāda: Hawaii Island is better than this island. Huh? Is it not? Harikeśa: It never becomes cold there. It never becomes cold. Prabhupāda: No. Cyavana: Here they suffer from the cyclone every year. And every fifteen years it is treacherous. Prabhupāda: Cyclone, typhoon is there in Japan also. Cyavana: Yes. Only thing, here there is Indian culture. Prabhupāda: What Indian culture? They are killing cows. (laughter) What is Indian culture? Cyavana: Remnants. Nothing. Prabhupāda: Their Indian culture is that some of them speak Hindi, that's all. (laughter) This is their Ind... *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...last night that they're starting a foundation, Mahatma Gandhi Foundation, here, to teach Indian culture, and he said, "Not just the Bhagavad*-gītā, but Indian culture." You mentioned that we should take Indian culture directly from Bhagavad-gītā, not from here, not little from here, and little from there. [break] You give the example, Prabhupāda, that to fight with a declared enemy is very easy, but to fight with someone who is playing as a friend, although he is your enemy, is more difficult. Prabhupāda: He is more dangerous than Buddha. What is that big building? Cyavana: They are building now a prison on the point there, a new prison. I tried to walk there one morning, and they stopped me because they are afraid someone may go in there and make some tunnel or some place where they can escape before they finish it. Brahmānanda: It looks like a hotel. Cyavana: Yes. It will be very luxurious. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] *Devotee 2: ...Vyāsadeva and Nara*-Nārāyaṇa, they are still in the Himalayas meditating, why don't they come and join our parties and help this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by their...? Prabhupāda: They are giving you chance to preach. They have given their books. Is it not sufficient? Devotee 2: Yes, it's great help. [break] Prabhupāda: ...bones or what? Cyavana: Yes. It's coral. It's from coral. Prabhupāda: An animal. Cyavana: It's called an exoskeleton because it's on the outside instead of the inside. We have a skeleton inside the skin, but their skeleton is on the outside of the skin, and the flesh is within. Prabhupāda: So they trim the coconuts? Cyavana: They pull them down, yes. Indian man 3: They don't know how to cut. They cut with sticks. Harikeśa: Do they cut them down before they're grown? Cyavana: No, they let them ripen. Harikeśa: Then they eat them. Brahmānanda: The Minister for Youth was there last night. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Cyavana: When you were speaking with those two boys last night, that was the Minister of Youth who was sitting with the High Commissioner. He was appreciating that they were coming to challenge, that they were understanding. They cannot understand their own so*-called culture. They have not been able to get the young people here to adopt it. Instead they are trying to imitate the West. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Blind leading the blind. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Did you understand the words, "The blind leading the blind"? Do you agree? [break] ...culture, the basic principle is mistaken, bodily concept of life. How it can be perfect? [break] ... world's present so*-called culture based on misconception. Therefore it cannot be perfect. Whatever they are doing, it is failure. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can't satisfy anyone. Now people are under the conception that culture means that you can satisfy anything you like, any desire. Therefore there is birth control and so many things. So they are thinking that "If we can satisfy all of our desires, it is very nice culture." Prabhupāda: But where is satisfaction? Brahmānanda: They think that unhappiness comes from repression of one's desires. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They think that actually that we're suffering from so many desires, that we must be very poor creatures because we become devotees. Prabhupāda: So why so many desires? Because one desire is not complete, therefore you desire next. Therefore the process of desiring is defective, and our process is to purify the desires, not to remain in the imperfect platform of desiring, but whatever desire you have got, just purify it. Then it will be satisfied. So desire produced by bodily concept of life will never be satisfied. Therefore some of them are trying to become desireless, the impersonalists. Nirvāṇa. Brahmānanda: That is also impossible. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Indian man 3: Still there is a desire to become desireless. [break] ...nice example for Mr. Seller, a murghee(?). He thinks the rains are getting under and then cutting his slack. Prabhupāda: Expensive. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was one of those men over there. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of the men over there made that sound, Prabhupāda. Cyavana: They just came out of that dancing club. Prabhupāda: Oh. Cyavana: They spend the whole night in there. Harikeśa: Getting drunk. Brahmānanda: They've become dog already. Cyavana: One night and you're a dog. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...ready, Prabhupāda. We wake up in the morning, and instead of selfish desires you've taught us how to offer to Kṛṣṇa. *Devotee 2: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you mentioned that the trees, they also can see, (in a) purport. So I was wondering, do all the various species of life, are they fully equipped in some fashion or another with all the various senses? Prabhupāda: Yes. Living being means possessing all the senses. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Absolute is sentient thou hast proved, impersonality calamity thou hast moved." [break] Prabhupāda: ...tree in Hare Krishna Land, they are so beautiful, heḥ? And what is this? Devotee 2: These are very short. (laughter) Cyavana: They are also torn by the cyclone. The cyclone has pulled up all the big ones. Indian man 3: These are different in Durban. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are not as fortunate. Prabhupāda: Better place than this? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Very nice weather there. The people very much like us there too, Prabhupāda. Big crowds. Like us. [break] Cyavana: ...bassa is nicer, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Mombassa. Cyavana: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Goloka is the best. Cyavana: You once said that is the nicest place in the material world. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Goloka is the best. Prabhupāda: So Durban is better or Mombassa? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, I've never been in Mombassa, I can't say, but Durban is very nice. We have a very nice house there for you to translate in for several weeks if you'd like. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hm? What is Brahmānanda's opinion? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, he's never been to Durban. Cyavana: There's no one here who's been to both places. Prabhupāda: You did not go to Mombassa? Cyavana: Mombassa I have been, but not Durban. So you will have to judge. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's many mosquitoes in Mombassa, isn't it? Cyavana: I don't know. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And malaria. That you don't find. No? When I went to the innoculation center and I said I was going to Kenya, they gave us both malaria tablets. They said, "Take one a week." That's true. But you don't find malaria in Durban. (end) Room Conversation -- October 4, 1975, Mauritius Prabhupāda: But the size of the body has changed. Brahmānanda: The size has changed. It has grown, increased. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It looks different, completely... It looks different. There is no similarity. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no similarity. Why the child... There was no mustaches. Why you have mustaches? How you can say "The same body"? You shall have to give your own argument. Child had no mustaches; you have got now mustaches. How you can say the same body? The child had no sex desire; now you have got sex desire. Brahmānanda: They would say all these things are dormant within the child's body, and now they are coming out. Prabhupāda: That we also say, but that body not... That "dormant" means dormant in the soul, not in the body. That is the knowledge. Dormant it is, but dormant in the soul, not in the body. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have to admit that it's a different body because if the body is simply made of food and they are eating so much and evacuating so much, then it has to be a different body. Prabhupāda: No, it is different body, undoubtedly. If they foolishly argue, that is different thing. Therefore rascal. Their argument has no value. How you can be the same body? So many changes. The body is changed. (to Indian man:) What is that? It was not garam? Indian man (1): No, garam not. *Prabhupāda: So this argument, how he can refute, that he has died twenty*-two years? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, he can also say that he has lived twenty*-two years, because he has no perception of any life before that time. He can't remember living before. *Brahmānanda: "Before, I was not alive. Now I am alive, so I have lived for twenty*-two years. Before, I was dead; *I was not alive. Now I am alive, so I've been alive for twenty*-two years." Prabhupāda: So before, you were not alive. Then how your life came? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The combination of... Prabhupāda: Do it. Again foolishness. These rascals... (laughs) Then, if you can create life, then where is the question of dead body? You create again. Give life again. If you are so competent that you can give life, combination, then this dead body is there. You bring chemicals and inject. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same chemicals are there, too. The same chemicals, living body, dead body-five minutes before, five after*-is the same chemicals. But they can't explain why there is such a drastic difference. Prabhupāda: What is that same chemical? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the living body, two minutes before death and two minutes after... Prabhupāda: So what is that? Name that, what is that chemical. Then bring it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let him try and make life. Not possible. Prabhupāda: If you know the chemical, then you bring it. Chemical is available. Why this is dead? What they will answer? What this chemical is wanting, that it is dead? Brahmānanda: Well, we may not know... Prabhupāda: Then, you rascal, why you are talking? You do not know. (laughter) Brahmānanda: But, then, neither do you know. Prabhupāda: Huh? No... Brahmānanda: You can say soul, but you don't... Prabhupāda: No. But you cannot answer my question; therefore you are more rascal than me. You cannot answer. Your... You are... Harikeśa: You have the position. He's in a position. He cannot answer. Prabhupāda: Yes. You say that chemical is missing. I say what is that chemical? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, but the chemical is not missing. Prabhupāda: Then? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same chemical is there. Two minutes before death and two minutes after death, the body chemistry has not changed so much. Prabhupāda: No. What is that missing that it is dead? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They can't answer. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are fool. You cannot answer. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because it's not a question of chemical. Actually they don't know what life is. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are foolish. Therefore he has to take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa: dehino 'smin yathā... "Within this body there is soul." Brahmānanda: You say there's a soul, but we've never seen a soul. It may be your imagination. Prabhupāda: You may not see. You have not seen your forefather. That does not mean... This is all bad argument. Why do you believe? Your eyes are so imperfect; *still, you say, "I did not see. I want to see." What is the value of your eyes? You see the sun globe*-a small disc. But is it so? Then how do you know that it is so big? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: By hearing. Prabhupāda: By hearing. That is important, not by seeing. Therefore śruti, Veda, is important, not your eyes. Harikeśa: When people die, though, there is usually some cause. Like they have a heart attack or they get hit by a car or some disease. So that death is caused by the disease... Prabhupāda: That is not the cause. That is the effect. You foolish, do not know. You are taking it, cause. Harikeśa: Well, when you get hit by a car, that's a cause. Prabhupāda: Just like one man becomes insolvent, loses everything. So he said that "I had no money. Therefore I become insolvent." But that is not the fact. He could not manage; therefore there was scarcity of money and he became failure. So that is effect. On account of his bad management, he came to a position that he could not pay to his creditor, and his business is failure. So that insolvency is not the cause. It is the effect. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhīṣma was able to remain in his body even on a bed of arrows. Prabhupāda: So when you are going to die, these are the... On account of imminent death, these are the effects. Harikeśa: But that means that the body breaks down. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: The body breaks down. Prabhupāda: At a certain period it will break. Harikeśa: So that is the cause, the body breaking down. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you say heart failure is the cause. No. The body is breaking; therefore heart failure. Harikeśa: So death means the body breaks. Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all your answer... You say the heart failure is the cause. The man is dying. I say that because the man is dying, the heart is failure. So heart failure is not the cause. It is the effect. Harikeśa: That's very difficult... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because his karma in that body is running out, he has to leave. Brahmānanda: But if I can get some machine that will make the heart keep on beating, then the man won't die. Prabhupāda: No. That you are failure. You have got so many machines. You go on, keeping the heart going on. That is not possible. Harikeśa: Finally they just pull out the plug. The doctor kicks the plug one day. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Brahmānanda: At the present moment, I was reading, there is one girl in America, New Jersey, teenage girl. And for some unknown reason she went to sleep one night, and in the morning she did not wake up. So they then rushed her to the hospital, and they have an artificial machine that is keeping her alive, and this has been going on for one month. All of her bodily functions are becoming more and more diminished, but still, by this machine, she is alive. Now this has gone on for one month. So now they don't know what to do with her. Should they keep her like this, just running on the machine, or should they stop the machine and then she will die? This is a big legal problem. They don't know what... If they stop the machine, they'll be accused of manslaughter. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some Catholic priest said that better to let her die, because this is God's way. Prabhupāda: Then he has to accept the God's way and give up the machine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But in a situation like that, isn't it more valuable to preserve human life because there's the chance... Prabhupāda: What is the use? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a chance that somehow or another, they might be... Prabhupāda: Why should you take the chance? You are perplexed with overpopulation. And why you want to stay? One side, you are perplexed with overpopulation. Let him die. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they can use the argument that you're saying that human life is simply for Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness. Prabhupāda: No, from his argument, why should you try to keep it? Let him die. Cyavana: They are afraid of death. No one wants to die. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are afraid someone will take them off the machine, too. Cyavana: We want to live as long as we can. Prabhupāda: Then you have to accept that your killing child, abortion, that is sinful. Cyavana: It's easier for the mind to accept what is apparent to the senses. For example, to accept that I am this body is easier for my mind than to accept a philosophy which you say that we are not this body. That is very difficult for my mind to accept, whereas I can accept very immediately that I am this body. Prabhupāda: Because it is difficult, therefore you are a fool. That proves that you are a fool. Cyavana: Why should I strive for something so difficult, such a philosophical understanding, when I can live very happily with this body? Prabhupāda: But because you do not want to die. You want happiness. Cyavana: So I can enjoy this body. Prabhupāda: You cannot. That is the difficulty. You want, but you cannot. You want. That I know. But you cannot do it. Harikeśa: You never see happy people. Prabhupāda: That is their ignorance. They are accepting unhappiness as happiness. Brahmānanda: Well, in this world there has to be some unhappiness and there has to be some happiness. Prabhupāda: But we are trying to give you happiness only, no unhappiness. Cyavana: But that's not possible. Brahmānanda: That's artificial. Prabhupāda: That you say, but we know. Cyavana: We cannot see. Prabhupāda: You cannot see, but you will see if you be trained up. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Cyavana: But it is easier for us to remain here and enjoy a little bit and accept a little suffering, accept this body. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa said that "Bhagavad*-gītā should be discussed amongst My devotees, not amongst the rascals." It will be waste of time. Ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. Find out this verse. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me." Prabhupāda: Not to the fools and rascals. So first of all, to give them chance, let them come to the temple, take prasādam, hear saṅkīrtana, offer obeisances by imitating others. In this way, when they become little devotee, then instruct. Otherwise it will be useless. You'll waste your time by arguing. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You have given the example that the field has to be plowed before the seed is sown, cultivated. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cyavana: The mind has to want that higher taste. *Prabhupāda: Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. So this process... Bring the... Invite them. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance, give them prasādam. Everyone will take part in this way, not immediately instructing that "You are not this body; you are soul." He will not be able to. Cyavana: It's too difficult. *Prabhupāda: Therefore this process is recommended. Caitanya Mahāprabhu argued with Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, not with ordinary public. Ordinary public-"Go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and dancing." Never argued, neither He discussed Bhāgavatam. For ordinary public-four hours' kīrtana, chanting and dancing, bas. And then give them sufficient prasādam: "Take prasāda." This process... Because unless he has got little śraddhā, he will simply put some false argument and waste your time. Not in the beginning. Mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. First of all create him a devotee a little. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa-harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]-only. Because this is Kali-yuga, people are so fallen, so downtrodden, so rascal, cats and dogs. It is very difficult. But this process-chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, giving them chance to hear it and take prasādam*-that will cure. And that is easily accepted by anyone. It doesn't matter what he is. Anyone will accept. To chant and dance and take prasādam-no one will disagree. So this is the process. When they come to the temple... Just like these boys. You are offering obeisances; *they are also offering. But that will go to their credit, to become bhakta. This process should be adopted. Not in the beginning, but in the beginning give them prasādam, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And try to sell some book. You pay something. That means he is giving some service, the hard*-earned money. That will also go to his credit. And then, when he'll concerned that "I have paid for it. Let me see what this nonsense has written. All right. Read." And that will also convince him. This is the way. He'll keep this body, book, and show some friend, so the infection will go on. Cyavana: We can see in some of our boys in Kenya. Practically they have no education and very little intelligence, but still, they are doing everything. They're falling down. They are offering all the prayers. They are taking prasādam. They are chanting. They are doing everything, even they don't have the intelligence to understand why. Prabhupāda: You said that no chemical is missing. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No chemical difference. Prabhupāda: But why it is dead? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The body is dead? Well, they haven't been able to determine that yet. Prabhupāda: Then they are rascals. There is no argument because you do not know. Cyavana: They say "fate." They say "There is fate." Prabhupāda: Faith we have got, but you have no faith. Cyavana: Not faith. Fate. Prabhupāda: What is that fate? Cyavana: Predetermined, predestined. Prabhupāda: Who made it, the predestination? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Higher controller. Prahupada: Then you have to accept some higher authority, God. Cyavana: But he is not a person. He is not a person. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. That is another thing. That is another question. But you have to accept some superior authority. As soon as you accept fate, destiny, then you have to accept superior authority. Cyavana: They also say "nature." They say "by nature." Prabhupāda: Whatever it... Whatever it may be. You have to accept some superior authority. That means you are not independent. You are under the control of the superior authority. Harikeśa: Time. Time is... Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. You call by any name. That is another thing. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These bodies are a reaction, effect, isn't it? These bodies are an effect. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then death also must be some effect. Prabhupāda: So who has made this law, cause and effect? Some way or other, you have to accept that you are not independent. Harikeśa: Their arguments are so foolish, it's hard to think of them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore mūḍha, they have been described. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. They are being kicked, punished; still, he says, "Oh, I don't care for anybody." I kick on your face. "Yes, I don't care for you." Like that. This is their argument. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā. Cyavana: But because everything in this world appears to be disordered, it is difficult to accept... Prabhupāda: The world is not in disorder. Cyavana: But it appears to be. Brahmānanda: Man makes order. Prabhupāda: Man makes order? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is... Your idea is that he conceives of the order. But actually there is no order, but he... Prabhupāda: When there is cyclone, man can stop? Cyavana: For example this beach is all disorder. There is so much rubbish there. There is no order to this world. So how can there be any higher authority... Prabhupāda: So what you can do? Cyavana: I cannot accept that there is a higher authority when everything is simply disorganized. These trees are broken, the... Prabhupāda: It is organized. It is organized. For thousands of years the sea is there, the beach is there. So sea cannot come here. This is order. Cyavana: But the line of the beach is all crooked and... Prabhupāda: That is your imperfect vision. It is perfect. Harikeśa: People think, "Straight and corners, that is very nice. If everything has corners..." Prabhupāda: That is your concoction. Cyavana: Like a building, straight. Prabhupāda: Just like if you think that "Why keep to the left? Why not right?" You think like that, but that is ordered by the superior. You can think in your own way. Cyavana: Because it appears that way to my senses, therefore I think that... Prabhupāda: Therefore it is authority. You can think like anything, but it will not be done according to your desire. It will be done by the authority's desire. That is authority. You cannot dictate the authority that "You do like this." That is not authority. You think any way; that is your business. But authority will do in their own way. Harikeśa: Actually, nobody cares about philosophy. Nobody follows philosophy. Prabhupāda: No. He cares for death. That is the ultimate philosophy, that they have to die. Say, "I don't care for this order. I'll not die." Then your disobedience is all right. But you have to die. You have to become old man. How you can disobey? Cyavana: So if death is imminent, then I should simply try to enjoy myself as long as I can. Prabhupāda: Enjoy. What is that enjoyment if you are going to die? Harikeśa: It's so incredible how crazy everything is. Brahmānanda: Well, at least before I die, I can get as much pleasure as I can. Prabhupāda: Nobody can, if he is actually afraid of death. Suppose if you are given a beautiful woman-"Enjoy, and as soon as you come out I will shoot you." (laughter) Will you enjoy? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a great example. That example would change the world. Prabhupāda: That is the difference between a man of knowledge and a fool. Man of knowledge, that is that he knows he has to die. "But I don't wish to die. So what is the solution?" That is man of knowledge. Harikeśa: Sometimes they say "Well, why worry about death? It's gotta happen anyway, so why should we worry?" Prabhupāda: But you... You... Because you are rascal number one, you don't worry, but that is the psychology. This is the example. Harikeśa: But I want to enjoy right now. Prabhupāda: Suppose that you enjoy this woman for few minutes. Then you will be shot down. Then will you be able to enjoy? Brahmānanda: Actually they do that. When some man is to be executed in the prison they give him one woman the night before as a special consolation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They finish him off completely. They ruin him. (laughing) Cyavana: But death is very far away from me. I am only thirty years old. I don't have to worry about death. *Prabhupāda: What is the guarantee that you will live thirty-one years? What is the guarantee that you will live thirty*-one years? There is no guarantee. Cyavana: But everyone else around me appears to be having fun and enjoying. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They can use this argument though, Prabhupāda. I've heard it before, that "So God has placed us in this world. Okay, there is God, and He has placed us in this world, and He has created the world also, and He has made these things very, very enjoyable, sex life, and this and that. So why not enjoy if God has created it?" Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. It is not enjoyable. That is... If a criminal says, "The prisonhouse is very enjoyable," it is like that. Cyavana: But all the travel brochures and the advertisements, they say it's nice here. All the advertising and travel brochures, they say it is nice. Prabhupāda: Let him say, but prisonhouse, is it nice? That is foolishness. Cyavana: But everyone else says it's nice. Prabhupāda: Everyone? I don't say. Cyavana: You are the only one who says it is not nice. Prabhupāda: I am the only intelligent person. (laughter) That's a fact. Mūḍho nābhijānāti. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says, antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasām: [Bg. 7.23] "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary." So does this mean that these less intelligent people who are simply interested in temporary benefit... Even they don't worship demigods per se, it could be anyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Demigods... Yes. Just like one who is trying to get some good service. So they are worshiping this boss, that boss. That is also demigod, because without flattering some boss he cannot get some good job; *without flattering the voters he cannot get the ministership. That is demigod worship. They have to flatter somebody. Why this Ram Gulab has gone to...? He has to flatter there. This is going on. The big bosses in the United Nation, they are demigods, supposed to be. He thinks, "If I flatter them, then I will be able to keep my position." But he does not think that this position will be lost after some years. Tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasām. He has forgotten his eternal life, Kṛṣṇa, and he is flattering these demigods. That's all. What he will gain? He will die. That's all. At the time of death what these United Nation leaders will do? Cyavana: But we can improve the standard for future generations, for our children. Prabhupāda: First of all you improve your own condition; then think of future generation. You are going to hell and thinking of future generation. You are going to die, and you are thinking of future generation. Who is your future generation? That is another foolishness. This is asuric civilization. Asuric civilization. Cyavana: Hope against hope. *Prabhupāda: Hope, that is also foolishness. Apart from future generation, you have got sons. So you are taking very great care. Does it mean that his life is guaranteed? So what you can do? You cannot do anything for your present generation, what to speak of future generation. You cannot do. Suppose your son is sick. As father, you have given first*-class medicine, first-class physician. Does it guarantee that he will live? Then what can you do? Is it in your control that your son will live because you have given good physician, good medicine? Is it guarantee that your son will live? Then what can you do? You cannot do anything for your present generation, and you are thinking of future generation, which you do not know, who is your future generation. At the present moment you know this is your generation, you cannot do anything, and you are thinking of future generation. How foolish you are. Cyavana: Well, we may have to accept the laws of nature, but at least we can... Prabhupāda: And therefore, what is the meaning of taking care of future generation or this generation? Cyavana: At least we can make it comfortable in this world. Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. You have already given good medicine, good physician. And why he is dying? You cannot do anything. That is your position. You may try to do, but that is futile. Ultimate is different. Cyavana: So by giving him medicine, maybe I can give him a better chance... Prabhupāda: "Maybe" can be, but it is not guaranteed. You cannot do anything. Cyavana: But at least I should try. Prabhupāda: Try. Foolishly you try whatever you like. That is another thing. But it is not under your control. You can try. That is your... Of course, you must try as a dutiful father, but you should know that you cannot take any guarantee or do anything, good or bad. That you have already said, "the destiny." That is prominent. That is prominent, not you. Cyavana: The tendency of the humans... *Prabhupāda: You can do the best to train your child to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is in your power. That you can do. That is the best service, not anything else. That is not possible. If you become yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, and if you try to make your son Kṛṣṇa conscious, that you can do. And that is the duty, real duty. Other things, you cannot do anything. That is destiny. And if you make him Kṛṣṇa conscious, then destiny can also be changed. This is the concession of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Destiny also can be changed. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām [Bs. 5.54]. One who comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his karma is also changed. Cyavana: Is that karma dovetailed? Prabhupāda: Yes. Cyavana: It's still there. Prabhupāda: Still can be changed by bhakti. Just like one man is condemned to death. Nobody can change it, but the king can change it. Only by the mercy of king he can be saved, not otherwise. Even the judge who has punished him, he cannot do it. Whatever is ordered, there is order. He cannot change it. Similarly, if you become devotee, then your destiny can be changed. A devotee never is anxious to change his destiny. That is devotee's... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Cyavana: But if his destiny takes him away from Kṛṣṇa, then he is not... Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. If Kṛṣṇa desires, He can do anything. So a devotee does not interfere with Kṛṣṇa's desire. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We know that Kṛṣṇa desires everyone to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Prabhupāda: Oh, that is... Kṛṣṇa says. That is His desire. Sarva*-dharmān pa..., mām ekāṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So Kṛṣṇa is not causing everyone to forget Him. Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa's desire is open to everyone. We don't accept it. That is our obstinacy. Kṛṣṇa says "There is soul." We do not say. "No, there is no soul." This is our position. Kṛṣṇa says, "Within this body there is soul," and we don't accept. We'll argue. This is our position. He is giving direct instruction, "Yes, there is soul," but we don't accept. Disobedient. Cyavana: But if Kṛṣṇa knows that we will suffer in this material world, why does He let us go away from Him? Why doesn't He keep us there? Prabhupāda: Eh? Cyavana: If Kṛṣṇa knows that we will suffer here in this material world if we come here, why does He let us go? Prabhupāda: Why the thief goes to the prisonhouse? He knows that "If I go to the prisonhouse, I will be put into distress." Cyavana: But the government is not strong enough to force him not to go, not to steal. Prabhupāda: Why government is not strong enough? Cyavana: The government doesn't have the power to control everyone. But Kṛṣṇa can... Prabhupāda: No. Even if he's strong enough, you disobey. The government has made so many things that you cannot steal, the iron chest, but still, you are clever enough that you do. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The independence is there. Sometimes people ask, Prabhupāda, that if the spiritual world is ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12), full of bliss, then how is it that, somehow or another, we've left that blissful situation and come into this hellish... Prabhupāda: This argument we have talked many times. Everyone knows that out of prisonhouse freedom is there. Why he goes to the prisonhouse? Everyone knows it. Why does he go to the prisonhouse? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not by choice. He is placed there. Cyavana: Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. If He wanted to check us from going there, He could check us from going into the prison, from offending. *Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa has given you independence. So you are.... By mentality, you have to suffer. Suppose if a child wants to do something, play, if you check it, check it, then he will go mad. Just like mother Yasoda was showing stick to Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa became so much afraid, he (she) became immediately anxious: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has too much anxiety. He may fall sick." So immediately throw away. So this is father*-mother's affection. Cyavana: So actually it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He allows us to come here, free ourselves from... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He has given you little freedom. He doesn't want to take your freedom. Harikeśa: You gave two examples in Los Angeles about the master, big master, like president of Du Pont walking his dog. The president of Du Pont is walking his dog in Central Park. The dog makes him go this way and this way and this way. And you said we are just passing stool and urine in the material world, and Kṛṣṇa is just letting us run here and there. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Anumantā. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, anumantā, upadraṣṭā. *Cyavana: In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta in one of your purports you gave the example of Paramātmā being compared to when there is a circus in a village the government sends one inspector to watch over the activities. Then, when the circus goes, he is no longer there. Could you explain it? (pause) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, if Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of pleasure, then what does He need us for? If Kṛṣṇa is all blissful, then what... We're so, it seems, incapable of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. He is so magnanimous. What does He need us for? *Prabhupāda: He does not ask for Himself. For you. If you come to Kṛṣṇa and enjoy with Him, that is your good. He is self*-sufficient. He doesn't require. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes, Prabhupāda, when they see your Bhagavad*-gītā, they say, "Oh, it is too big for me to read." They don't know that the purport.... They've never read. Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that bring them, let them chant and dance and take prasādam. That, everyone will hear, agree. Harikeśa: One who does that, he is preaching? One who arranges for chanting and dancing and taking prasādam, that is as good as preaching? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam, arcanam*-anything. Harikeśa: These festival programs are very important. Prabhupāda: (pause) You have to spend or waste gallons of blood before you can convert a person to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is so difficult task. Cyavana: You have to spend? Prabhupāda: Gallons of blood, waste. Cyavana: In what way? Prabhupāda: By talking with him, with the rascal and foolish. You tax your brain and spoil your energy, blood. Harikeśa: Spend so much food. Cyavana: So we should do that. Prabhupāda: Unless you are not a preacher. You should be prepared. Yes. They cuts, sacrifices life, what to speak of wasting blood. Wasting life. This is preacher. Then he is recognized by Kṛṣṇa: "He has done so much for Me." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa will give more and more energy. *Prabhupāda: He is going to die for Kṛṣṇa, and therefore he is recognized. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya*-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. You become immediately very dear to Kṛṣṇa. Your business is how to become very intimate to Kṛṣṇa. That will be served by preaching. Cyavana: Would you like to hear this verse? "There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear." Prabhupāda: Who? Ya idaṁ para... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to me." Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes... I've had one person. He complained, "Why is there no purport for this verse, 'There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear'?" Prabhupāda: No purport? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They have mentioned that there is no purport for this verse. Prabhupāda: It is already explained. Anyone who is preaching... *Harikeśa: That verse is self*-effulgent. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Harikeśa: You are the purport. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Simply people are trying to find out ways that they don't have to surrender to perfect knowledge. They can go on enjoying in the material world. Prabhupāda: Wanted... (indistinct) A little... (indistinct) Harikeśa: I think you should preach every breakfast. Your appetite is very good. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: Every breakfast you should preach. Then your appetite will be very good. Prabhupāda: No, appetite or no appetite, I preach. (laughter) I do not preach for increasing appetite. Devotee 2: Do you want this? Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. What is that? *Brahmānanda: This is lavaṇa*-bhāskara [āyur-vedic medicine for increasing appetite]. *Prabhupāda: Lavaṇa*-bhāskara, it is? No. Yes. Yesterday night what did I take? Harikeśa: At night you're supposed to take tripolin(?), no? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Harikeśa: At night Prabhupāda takes tripolin(?). After meals he takes this Bhāskara*-lavaṇa. Prahupada: But... Brahmānanda: At night you took this one? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: No, at night he's supposed to take tripolin. Prabhupāda: You follow. (end) Morning Walk -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius Prabhupāda: ... Similarly, this planet is also an island in the air. [break] These new boys, they are understanding our philosophy? Cyavana: Yes, gradually. They are attracted. Prabhupāda: Hm? You are reading books? Indian boy (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Cyavana: One boy last night, he said he was ready to move into our āśrama. Prabhupāda: Let him. Cyavana: Yes? Prabhupāda: Yes. Let him move. But he is going to cut his hair? Cyavana: He said, "Yes." He agreed. [break] Is that one of you who said you were ready? [break] Prabhupāda: ...nice. Here is... This is the qualification. [break] ...island can be developed in a very nice piece of country if the leaders are intelligent. Cyavana: They are very interested in our philosophy. Prabhupāda: The leaders? Cyavana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So why do they not accept it? Cyavana: Gradually they will. They are attracted. They will accept. [break] ...only here I have seen. All the islands on the Pacific and Indian Ocean are all potential. Philippines, very... The Philippine boys, I saw, very nice. They are not guided. Fiji also. Prabhupāda: Fiji. Fiji also. Fiji, mostly Indian, but the original Fiji Fijians, they are also very nice. Cyavana: What about Bali? There are also many... Prabhupāda: Bali, there are practically Hindus. Yes. Everywhere. The soul is pure. They have been made impure by misleading. Cyavana: All the outside influences are also here trying to make propaganda. Prabhupāda: Just like here, this is māyā influence. These things should be stopped. Cyavana: The Chinese come and make propaganda. The Russians come and make propaganda. The Americans come and make propaganda. They become confused what to do. Prabhupāda: The climate is nice. There is good potential for producing food, keeping cows. Everything nice. Devotee: It is all volcanic. The soil here is all from volcano, volcanic soil, very rich. Prabhupāda: Oh? Volcanic or not volcanic, pūrṇam idam [*Īśopaniṣad*, Invocation]. When it is created by Lord, it is complete. You are originally from India? No. Indian boy (2): No, Mauritius. Indian boy (1): Our father from India. Prabhupāda: All of you? Bihar? No. Indian boy (1): Bihar, yes, Bihar. Prabhupāda: [break] ...is also known as Magadha. Magadha. That is the... Candragupta and others, they were reigning in Bihar, emperor of India. Jarāsandha also belonged to Bihar. [break] ...a great scientist? Cyavana: Yes, I studied. Prabhupāda: How this sand is made? Cyavana: From the rocks it is... They call it weathering. The weather makes it ground up from the rocks. This is their theory. Prabhupāda: No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Isn't it shells from the animals? Cyavana: Some. Some from rocks, coral. Prabhupāda: It is made from salt. It is called sodium silicate. (laughter) Cyavana: They say this is combination of shells, coral, and rocks, ground up. Prabhupāda: No, no. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if it's salt, Prabhupāda, our experience of salt is generally that it dissolves in water, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Silicate there is. Indian boy (2): Salt and silicate. Prabhupāda: You know something of science? Indian boy (2): Some. Prabhupāda: It is melted in fire and glass is made. Cyavana: It becomes clear. Prabhupāda: No, that you have to add chemicals. Cyavana: Oh. [break] Prabhupāda: Hawaii, on the beach side, there are many, many coconut, eh? Harikeśa: Hm. Cyavana: Many of them have been ripped up by the cyclone, pine trees and coconut trees. Prabhupāda: In Hawaii there is no cyclone, I think. Hm? Harikeśa: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Harikeśa: They have a volcano on one island. There is one volcano that goes every twelve years. Prabhupāda: Here there is any volcano, on this island? Cyavana: Nothing left. Indian boy (2): Only once. Once we had. The island has been created by a volcano itself. And then afterwards, they have no volcano. There are craters. Cyavana: [break] ...volcano? There was a volcano here? Indian boy (2): Yes. Cyavana: When? Huh? Indian boy (2): A crater, it... Indian man (3): We are not so sure. Cyavana: Recently it came up? Indian man (3): No, we are not so sure because before human settlement in Mauritius. Indian boy (2): No, but it is... [break] ...please tell us about the creation of the earth. Prabhupāda: Hm? Indian boy (2): Creation, how... About the creation. I have read it from Bible too, about Adam and Eve. Do you think that it's true? Prabhupāda: What is the idea of Adam? Indian boy (2): God has created him. Prabhupāda: So the same process is mentioned in *Vedas*. God created Brahmā, and he created this universe. Indian boy (2): All which we can see on the earth have been created by... Prabhupāda: Brahmā. Indian boy (2): Brahmā. Who is Brahmā? Prabhupāda: Brahmā is the first creature in the universe, created by God. He came from the navel. Indian boy (2): Therefore, by himself he could create everything, Swamijī? Prabhupāda: Who? Indian boy (2): Brahmā himself? He is only one... Prabhupāda: Yes. He was empowered. Indian boy (2): He was only one person. Prabhupāda: Empowered by God. God created Brahmā, and he was empowered to create the universe. Indian boy (2): There should not have been two people, a female and male? Prabhupāda: Hm? Indian boy (2): There should not have been two people, a male and a female, to create everything? Prabhupāda: Yes, male and female. Indian boy (2): Then, apart from Brahmā, there would have been something else. Prabhupāda: No, Brahmā created male and female. Indian boy (2): Oh, he himself created it from...? Prabhupāda: From his ear, from his eyes, from his..., like that. From many parts of his body. Indian man (3): Swamijī, there is something quite confusing. Prabhupāda: Hm? Indian man (3): Lord Kṛṣṇa created Lord Viṣṇu, and Lord Viṣṇu in His turn created Lord Brahmā. So... Prabhupāda: Not created, expanded. Just like one candle is burning, and you lit up another candle. So this candle is not created, it is simply power transfer. Expansion. You can call it expansion. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya [Bs. 5.46]. Expansion of the light. This is, contains iodine, this ship. Iodine. That ship is going or coming? Cyavana: Going. But he's sitting. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is standing. Cyavana: It's sitting, yes. Indian boy (2): Swamijī, do you think that Bible, about the Adam, Adam is Brahmā? It has been copied from the Indian philosophy to put it there in different name? Prabhupāda: From historical point of view it is copied because *Vedas* are created by Brahmā long, long, many millions, millions of years, and Bible is created two thousand years. So we have to take the original. All religious system of the world, they are taken from *Vedas*, from different parts. Therefore they are not complete. The age of Bible is not more than two thousand years. The age of Veda you cannot calculate, millions and millions of years. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why is it, Prabhupāda, that in earlier parts of the Kali*-yuga no one like yourself came throughout the rest of the world and preached Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Huh? Preached? Caitanya Mahāprabhu preached. His descendant preached. Why do you say no one preached? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But throughout the rest of the world, places like Japan and Australia... Prabhupāda: Your calculation of the world. If it is preached anywhere, that is preached on the world. It was not spread, you can say, but it was preached. Cyavana: The seed was planted. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: They were saving it for you. Prabhupāda: For you also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they had their hands full with India. They had their hands full with India, all of the preachers. Prabhupāda: Yes. What they are collecting? Harikeśa: Crabs, I think. Crabs. Indian man (4): Swamijī? It is prohibited to consume, consume flesh, meat. It's because there is soul in the body and if we kill it, therefore we are doing a sin. I think it's because that we can't consume meat according to the Vedic literature. But what about plants, Swamijī? Prabhupāda: Plants also, you... They are also killed. They are also killed. But this is... Plants are killed by the order of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you are not responsible. Indian man (4): Therefore, if we say that we can kill some animal by the order of Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Yes, then you are not responsible. Suppose I kill one snake by the stick. The stick is not responsible; I am responsible. Indian man (4): When do you think that you'd know that Kṛṣṇa is responsible and not our... *Prabhupāda: You learn from the śāstra. You learn from Bhagavad*-gītā what Kṛṣṇa says and do it. Then you are not responsible for anything. Just like there is lawbook. If you act... (aside:) Don't keep so near. ...act according to lawbook, then you are not criminal. If you violate the lawbook, then you are criminal. Similarly, what Kṛṣṇa says, that is recorded in the śāstra, especially in the Bhagavad-gītā. So you act what is said in the Bhagavad-gītā; *then you remain free from all sinful reaction. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko ya karma*-bandhanaḥ. Yajñārthāt means for Kṛṣṇa. Whatever you do, that's all right. Otherwise you are become bound up by the reaction. Anyatra karma-bandhanaḥ. Karma-bandhanaḥ means you are bound up by the reaction. So therefore you have to act according to Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. If you act differently, then you are responsible. Indian man (4): How would you know what to consume and what not, Swamijī? Prabhupāda: That is stated in the śāstra. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Patram means vegetable, leaves; *puṣpam, flower. In this way, whatever He says, you collect and offer to Him and take prasādam. Then you are not responsible. And if you collect for yourself even patram without offering to Kṛṣṇa, if you take, you are responsible for killing. It doesn't matter whether you kill a big animal or a small plant. You are responsible. Just like a soldier. He kills hundreds and thousands of men and he is given gold medal. And as soon as he kills one man for his sense gratification he is hanged. Eh? Is it not? He can say, "I have killed so many men. At that time I was not hanged. I was given gold medal. How is that? (laughter) I have killed only one man. I am going to be hanged?" That is law. You cannot do anything on your own account, sense gratification. Then you are responsible. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'ya karma*-bandhanaḥ. Everything is stated. Read Bhagavad-gītā very thoroughly and try to understand. Then everything will be clear, how to live, how to organize society. We have to live. The same thing: we are also working, we are also eating, we are sleeping, we are also marrying-but according to Kṛṣṇa's direction. Then it is Kṛṣṇa conscious life and perfect life. And as soon as you do anything whimsically, at your will, then you are responsible. Kṛṣṇa or His representative. Kṛṣṇa is giving instruction, and His representative is explaining. In both ways Kṛṣṇa is helping. So even so much facility being offered to you, if you don't take advantage, then you are committing suicide. Ātmahā. Ātmahā. Just like the sea is now calm and quiet. If you want to go somewhere, take advantage of it. And if you start your boat while it is cyclone, then you'll be drowned. So Kṛṣṇa has left the book of instruction, Bhagavad-gītā. It is favorable condition. And the spiritual master is the captain, and you take advantage. Your, this human body is a good boat. So good boat, favorable condition, good captain-take advantage of crossing this ocean. Otherwise you are committing suicide. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. It is very difficult to cross over this ocean of nescience, but these are the favorable conditions. One should take advantage of these favorable conditions and cross over this ocean of nescience. Devotee (5): Many people, they don't want to accept a captain. They want to go all alone. *Prabhupāda: Let them be drowned. Who can check them? If they do not accept good captain, let them be drowned. There is no regret for them. Let them go to hell. They are going, actually. For their dog's obstinacy they are going to hell. Adānta*-gobhir viṣatāṁ tamiśram [SB 7.5.30]. This is stated. Because they cannot control their senses they are going to hell. Indian man (4): Swamijī, is there any hell, or rather this is hell...? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Why not? Why not? Indian man (4): Above the world or in the world? Prabhupāda: Huh? You know everything, where, what is where? Do you know? Then why do you ask this question? There is. There is. There is planet, hellish planet. Indian man (4): I don't know, I have thought about this, that the hell of the pradas(?) exists only in this world itself. Prabhupāda: Because you are the frog of the well. The frog of the well thinks, "This well is everything." And if you say, "There is Atlantic Ocean," he cannot imagine, the frog of the well. You know frog of the well? Indian man (4): Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: A three*-feet well, and a frog is there and he is thinking, "This is everything." And some friend comes and informs, "Oh, I have seen very big water, Atlantic." He simply imagines, "Oh? It's big? How much big? One feet more? All right, two feet. All right, three feet," like that. So the frogs in the well, they cannot understand. You should be not a frog in the well; you should be liberal to hear from the authorities, Vedas. Then you will understand. And if you remain a frog in the well... All these rascal scientists, they are all frog in the well. They have got little calculation of this planet, and they have no information of... There are so many millions of planets. What do they know? They cannot, could not study even this moon planet. Wrongly study. The moon planet is above the sun planet, 1,000,600,000 miles above. What do they know? They are thinking the moon planet is in between the earth and the... So the all wrong calculation. Indian man (4): Swamijī, it has been said just as we act... We take birth according to our action. So if we have done something we must take birth according to the law of God. Prabhupāda: You must take birth. That is a fact. You cannot avoid it. But according to your karma you have to take birth. Indian man (4): This means that you pay what you have wrote. Yes, eh? Therefore do you think that... Prabhupāda: Suppose when your, this shirt is torn, you have to purchase one shirt. Now, that shirt you have to purchase according to your price. If you have good price, then you get a good shirt. If you have no money, then you get a bad shirt. That's all. Indian man (4): I wanted to say this, Swamijī, that hell also is situated in this world itself, because where do you think that we can pay our debt? Prabhupāda: Hm? Indian man (4): The sin, the debt of our sin. Where do you think that we pay it? In the hell, which is not... Prabhupāda: Hell is the place for your punishment. Indian man (4): Therefore it is on the earth itself. Prabhupāda: Why earth? Indian man (4): In the planet earth, no? Prabhupāda: No. It can be... Indian man (4): In any planets? Prabhupāda: ...many millions miles away. Indian man (4): But it is not locate... Only hell is located in one place or a prada(?) is located in another place? Do you think so, Swamijī? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. There are different planets. Indian man (4): There are many people who suffer in this world itself. Prabhupāda: So they are first of all trained up in that hellish planet and then they come here to suffer the same standard of life. Indian man (4): When our soul gets out from our body, it goes to the hell or... Prabhupāda: Hellish planet. Indian: ...hemisphere or it take birth immediately afterwards? Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are sinful, they do not take immediately birth. They first of all trained up in the hellish planet how to suffer to become accustomed and then they are taken birth, then suffer. Just like you pass I.A.S. Then you become an assistant to the magistrate. You learn. Then you are posted as magistrate. Even if you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead, you are first of all transferred to the universe where Kṛṣṇa is now present, and there you become accustomed. Then you go to real Vṛndāvana. Indian man (4): Therefore, after our death... Prabhupāda: Every arrangement by God is perfect. Pūrṇam. Pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇāt pūrṇam.. [*Īśopaniṣad*, Invocation]. Whatever is created by God, that is perfect. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All the associates of Lord Caitanya also were in the same position. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Liberated souls. Does Lord Caitanya always appear just after Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In every universe. Prabhupāda: Hm. [break] All questions are answered or not yet? Make it clear. Indian: Yes. I am thinking about it. Prabhupāda: [break] ...the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and educate your men on this island and be happy. There is good potency for this island. Cyavana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Don't be misled by the misleaders. Cyavana: There are many of them here also. Prabhupāda: [break] ...here in the understanding and help your people. That is good service. Devotee (6): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was asked a question by a man. He asked that Lord Śiva... Lord Rāmacandra was praying to Lord Śiva in the *Rāmāyaṇa*, and so he's taking Lord Śiva as being God. And we didn't have a clear answer to him. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (6): Could you just instruct us on this matter, why... *Prabhupāda: Lord Rāmacandra worshiped His devotees. Just like sometimes Kṛṣṇa worships Rādhārāṇī and touched His feet..., Her feet. That does not mean that Kṛṣṇa... Just like Kṛṣṇa was tolerating ear pulling by mother Yaśodā. That does not mean that mother Yaśodā is the Supreme. Hm? Kṛṣṇa was carrying the wooden shoes of Nanda Mahārāja. So that does not mean Nanda Mahārāja is greater than Kṛṣṇa. It is Kṛṣṇa's pleasure. Just like sometimes a father takes the son on the shoulder, carries. Does it mean the father is inferior than the son? So this is third*-class man's conclusion. They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Rāma. Kṛṣṇa says that aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. So He is the origin of Lord Śiva. So how Śiva can be the Supreme? We have to consult śāstra. Kṛṣṇa does not say that Śiva is Supreme. So if a third-class man says Śiva is Supreme, we have to accept it? We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, that is Supreme, not a third-class man's version. Is it clear? Yes. We should not take a third-class, fourth-class man's version. We should take from the śāstra. Indian man (7): Swamijī, Śiva is not another name of God? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Śiva is next to God. Just like yogurt, dahi. You know dahi? What is this dahi? Milk. But it is not milk. Dahi is not anything but milk, but it is not milk. Similarly, Lord Śiva is nothing but Viṣṇu, but it is not Viṣṇu. Is it clear now? You can say, "Well, dahi is nothing but milk." Yes. But it is not milk. If instead of milk you take dahi, the result will be different. And if you take milk instead of dahi, that is..., that will be different, although the milk and dahi is the same thing, same ingredients. So you have to understand in that way. Lord Śiva is nondifferent from the Supreme Lord. Everyone is nondifferent from Supreme Lord, but he's still different. This is the perfect philosophy, acintya*-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different. Indian man (7): Swamijī, in all the temples in Mauritius, the supreme deity... Prabhupāda: Supreme Deity is Viṣṇu. Indian man (7): But we consider Lord Śiva to be the supreme deity because we... Prabhupāda: But that is your lack of knowledge. I have already explained that, that yogurt is not different from milk. It is milk but still, it is not milk. You have to understand like that. Lord Śiva is not different from Viṣṇu, but he's still not Viṣṇu. Indian man (7): No, but do we offer the prayer first to Śiva...? Prabhupāda: That you do. There is no harm. Lord Śiva is also called Mahādeva. Amongst the demigods, he is the chief. So if you worship Lord Śiva... We also worship Śiva. It is not that we disrespect Śiva. We offer our utmost respect to Lord Śiva. But that does not mean that he is the Supreme Lord. Indian man (7): The difference that is there, Swamijī... Prabhupāda: Difference I have already explained. You cannot understand? Indian man (7): No, no, we pray Śiva first and then we go to pray Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: So that you do. There is no harm. There is no harm. But you should understand what is Śiva and what is Viṣṇu. If you offer first prayer to Lord Śiva, there is no harm. It is good. He is... Vaiṣṇavānāṁ yathā śambhuḥ. He is our spiritual master. He is Vaiṣṇava. Why not offer first respect to him? But if you take Lord Śiva as the Supreme, that is insult. You are giving me respect as spiritual master, but if you give me overestimation, that "You are the king of the whole world," that is insult. That is insult. That is not prayer. If you offer me prayer as I am befitting, then it is all right. But if you give me prayer for which I am not befitting, that is insult. That is insult. So you must know what is the position of... Lord Śiva is Vaiṣṇava. He is the greatest devotee. He is the number*-one demigod, and everything is all right. But if you say that he is the Supreme, then he will feel insulted, that "What is this nonsense saying?" So don't insult him in that way. That will go against your credit. He doesn't like that. Devotee (6): Also one other question came up from this man. Prabhupāda: A man may ask so many nonsense. A man is that, imperfect man. Why you bother about that? Man is imperfect. You have to take conclusion from the śāstra. A man may say anything nonsense. What we have got to do with him? He is a man, after all, imperfect man. So what is the value of his statement? Indian man (7): So he's a man and he's imperfect that he asks questions from you... No, Swamijī. Prabhupāda: No. If he submissively asks to know, then we can explain. If he challenges, then he should be avoided. He's a rascal. He does not know what is what. Brahmānanda: Yesterday at that meeting they were challenging. Prabhupāda: Huh? Brahmānanda: Some of the men yesterday... Prabhupāda: So I replied in that way, yes, that "Why you put these ridiculous questions?" Cyavana: Yes. Before he asked it. Harikeśa: That's what he could not understand, that you knew he was a... (laughter) *Prabhupāda: The other man I said, "Why do you bring India? Never... Kṛṣṇa never said, 'yadā yadā hi Hindu dharmasya glānir...' (laughter) Nonsense, what is this? Dharmasya glānir bhavati. Why do you bring 'Hindu dharma,' India?" That is their imperfectness of knowedge. We are not talking of Hindu dharma, Muslim dharma, this dharma. We are talking of what is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means the law given by God. You should know what is God, what is that law. That is religion. Devotee (6): They all think we are propagating Hindusim because we're wearing dhotī... Prabhupāda: They are thinking. They are rascals. They are thinking like that. Therefore I say they are imperfect. They are imperfectly thinking. So... So there were many Muslims, and the Christian, that Scotland man, he appreciated. Cyavana: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So we do not say anything about any particular section. We are speaking about God. God does not belong to any section. When Kṛṣṇa said that there should be four divisions, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13], He does not say that these divisions should be in the Hindu society or in India. He never says so. So why they take it as Hindu? Kṛṣṇa does not say that it is meant for the Hindus, for India. If God says that "I have created the sun," does it mean sun is created for India, not for this island? So these are foolishness. Whatever is spoken by God, that is meant for everyone, all over the universe. That is real understanding. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's in the American Constitution that all men are created equally. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real idea! Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they complain that "If all men are created equally, then each man will have equal opportunity." Prabhupāda: Yes. You can become a brāhmaṇa. Equal oppor... We are giving. Any man, he may be caṇḍāla but we give them opportunity: "Come on, you become a brāhmaṇa." We don't deny: "Oh, you are coming from a caṇḍāla family. You cannot become brāhmaṇa." No. We don't say that. We give equal opportunity. [break] ...is that before this movement, really Vedic culture was never broadcast. Therefore they are finding somewhere contradiction, something astonishing. But Vedic culture is meant for the whole world. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It has been misrepresented. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...the other day, before Mr. Nanda, that how brāhmaṇa can be from any family. He did not know. No rascal informed him before me. Therefore he was a little surprised. He was also mixed with Anandamaya, this māyā, that... And nobody informed him. He was kept in darkness. That was the first time that he could understand that cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]-brāhmaṇa can be prepared from anywhere. The whole India is under the impression that brāhmaṇa can be prepared..., brāhmaṇa is manufactured in India and the son of a brāhmaṇa is a brāhmaṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is propagated by the brāhmaṇas themselves, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, this is the current idea. [break] ...culture is meant for everyone... (end) Room Conversation -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda will speak in English or Hindi? Guest (1) (Indian man): ...you know Hindi. Prabhupāda: Which you...? No, just I want to end this verse. Shall I speak in Hindi or English? That I am... Guest (1): Hindi. Prabhupāda: Hindi. (Hindi) You read it thoroughly and you explain it either in English or Hindi, as you think befitting to your friends. So we have got so many literatures in French language. We are also asking some men from Europe. That will create some impression. Yes. White elephant. (laughter) Dancing. Everyone will purchase ticket. Yes. (Hindi) Bring some white elephant. So literature is there. But one thing is that you must be placed in sadācāra, well behaved. So you have to sacrifice, especially your long hair. And if you sacrifice your hair, we can export it and get some money. (laughter) Because in Western countries they want these hairs to make wigs. Yes. So just... (Hindi) As they have been trained up to rise early in the morning, this will give you spiritual strength. If you simply becomes a gramophone speaker, then it will not be effective. Gramophone or tape record speaker, that will not be. You must be live speaker. Your living condition should be spiritually, what is called, surcharged. So that means you must be trained up how to rise early in the morning, take your bath, cleanse yourself, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Then you will be spiritually strong. When you are spiritually strong, if you speak something on spiritual subject matter, then it will be effective. Otherwise it will be just like tape record playing. So this is required. And you should... You are asking something? Guest (1): No. *Prabhupāda: And gradually, when you are well behaving, then you shall be initiated to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That will give you strength, spiritual power. Strictly observe the regulative principles*-no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. It is very simple. Read these literatures, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and observe these regulations. Then you will become gradually powerful. Your speeches will be effective. People will like you. Guest (2) (Indian man): Now the program in the village, Swamijī, how to... Prabhupāda: Village... Just like you acquire some land. That you will get. It is not very... Is it difficult? Guest (2): No, sir. *Prabhupāda: Just we are doing so many places. So you produce your own food grains, not for making money but just for feeding yourself and the animals, cows. Keep cows, as many cows as possible, and produce, till the ground, field, and make water supply arrangement. If the investment is required, we shall do that. You have no worry about investment. We shall bring money from anywhere. But the work must be done very nicely. There must be good arrangement for water supply and for plowing and keeping the cows in order. Then you get sufficient milk, sufficient food grains and produce your own cloth. The girls and ladies, they can spine (spin) thread, and from the thread you make cloth, handlooms. So your first necessities of life, eating, and make little cottage, sleeping... And if you want sex, get yourself married, live peacefully. And when you are there you can defend yourself. So the first necessity is how to eat and how to cover. That you have to provide. That is not difficult. You can do it. And then you become peaceful, no anxiety for your maintenance. And then cultivate this spiritual knowledge the same way. Have a temple there. Have... Go on chanting, offering prasādam. You have got your food grains. Don't be dependent on anyone else. Become self*-independent. And don't be after money. Simply produce your bare necessities of life. Keep yourself fit, strong. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, read book. Then you'll grow strong. Is there any difficulty? Guest (1): No, Swamijī. Guest (2): To bring more people in our movement... Prabhupāda: They should be trained up, more people. Just like I went alone in Europe and America. So I have trained them. So it will depend on your training power, the more people will be attracted. If you advertise, "Come here," and if you have no power to attract them, then it will not be... You must be attractive to bring them. And that is spiritual attraction. You must behave yourself nicely. Then people will come. If you become purified, then naturally they will come. Just like if you prepare nice preparation with pure ghee, customers will be naturally attracted and they will pay and purchase. And if you prepare rubbish thing, one man may be cheated, but that will not be attraction for the general. Purity is required. That will attract. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. One must be pure. Then he will be able to attract. So if they see practically that "These people are very happy; *they have no anxiety," then they will be attracted. Is it not? What is the difficulty? But if you want brothel and night dancing and wine and meat*-eating, then it is spoiled. It becomes impure. To become pure is not at all difficult. Rather, to become impure, it is difficult. But people, with all difficulties, they are becoming impure. Otherwise the idea which I am giving, you can start anywhere, anywhere, any part of the world. It doesn't matter. Locally you produce your own food. You get your own cloth. Have sufficient milk, vegetables. Then what you want more? And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is Vedic civilization: plain living, high thinking. And poor thinking, poor in thought, poor in behavior, and living with motorcar and this, that, nonsense. It is all nonsense civilization. A first-class Rolls Royce car, and who is sitting there? A third-class negro. This is going on. You'll find these things in Europe and America. This is going on. A first-class car and a third-class negro. That's all. Is it not? Guest (3) (Indian man): Car is a necessity, Swamijī, don't you think so? Car is a necessity. Prabhupāda: Not necessary. What is the use of car? If you locate yourself to get everything, your necessity, then where is the use of car? If you require car, you have a bullock cart. That's all. Why should you hanker after petrol, mobile (Mobil?) oil, machine, this, that, so many things. Why? Guest (3): Yes, but don't you think that it would be impossible for you to come mostly? Prabhupāda: No, no. So long it is not available, we must take the best advantage. That is another thing. But gradually we shall develop a society that all these unnecessary rubbish things should be rejected. That is the idea. Or those who are interested, let them manufacture car; *we take advantage. We don't bother ourself how to manufacture car. Ajāgara*-vṛtti. Ajāgara-vṛtti, the idea is... Ajāgara means the snake. So a mouse makes a hole in the field to live very peacefully. So, and he enters the hole, and a snake gets the information and he comes, enters the hole. He eats the snake... The snake eats the mouse and lives peacefully. So let this rascal manufacture motorcar. When we require, we take from them and ride away. We are not going to manufacture. There will be some rascals. Let them do that, mouse. We enter as snake. (laughter) That's all. We are doing that. We are doing that. I did not manufacture this house, but somebody, some mouse, has done. (laughter) And we have entered it, that's all. That's all. This is going on all over the world. You know George Harrison? He has earned money with so great hard labor, and he has given us a house in London, fifty-five lakhs' worth. Another boy, Alfred Ford, he's the great grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. He has given. He is giving still money. He is prepared with all his money. So those who are after money, material things, we have to induce them that "Spend for me," that's all, and let him earn. So far we are concerned, we shall live very simple life, simply in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa does not go to construct big, big house. He simply constructs his character, and the other kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, they offer him, "Please come here and sit down." Therefore the division is... One who is unable to become a brāhmaṇa, let him become kṣatriya. If he cannot become kṣatriya, let him become a vaiśya. Otherwise let him remain a śūdra. But there should be ideal class. So we are trying to create an ideal society of brāhmaṇas. Then people will be benefited. And if everyone is śūdra, rascal, then what people will be benefited? They do not know how to live. The brāhmaṇas will give idea, "Live like this. You will be happy." Guest (1): Swamijī, I propose one thing: To influence people more and more in the villages. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the attraction, villagers. Guest (1): Yes. We should go there and live with them for... Prabhupāda: Yes. I have already suggested that you take land and be an ideal community. Guest (1): No, if we don't get land, Swamijī. I would suggest if, for example, one week, four or three, Swamijī... (Hindi) What he wants to say... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Very good idea, very good idea. Guest (1): That would be mercy to make the people conscious. And then again and again have here a same thing and then they would be influenced. Prabhupāda: Good idea. It is very good idea. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The idea was in Hindi. It was in Hindi. We don't understand. Prabhupāda: In the village... I shall speak in Hindi? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In English so we can understand. Prabhupāda: I am speaking in... So in the village, if these people go, they cannot do anything because they cannot speak in Hindi. Guest (1): No, we should be there to organize. We will be there to organize. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you organize, then that will be nice. *Guest (1): For example, I propose that Swamijī, sitting there, please tell me and I will tell the people they are the leader, to organize a Bhagavad*-gītā in English, because Swamijī speaks English. Prabhupāda: They can understand English? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Then do it. Guest (1): Yes, there are many people. Prabhupāda: They can understand? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Then, English edition we have got. French edition... You can speak in French and explain. He can speak in English. Guest (1): Yes. We can stay in a village for about seven days or eight days, so that every night, for example, as we do it here, we can do it in a village. Prabhupāda: So if you can organize like that, then I will come personally. I will go and encourage you. Guest (1): I can organize it, Swamijī. There are many people who would like to see you, to talk to you, and to... Not especially to you but to all the swamijis. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you think so, then I can come back again. I'll come back. Guest (1): Yes, Swamijī. Do you want me to... I know there is one... Not only one, but if you want me to organize when you come and you would be... Prabhupāda: Yes. My point is: if necessary, I can also come. I can go into the village. There is no... Guest (1): If you spent at least one month in these countries, Swamijī, I could... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Whenever you will say. If you say, I can stay just now one month. Guest (1): Yes? Prabhupāda: Yes. I can stay. Guest (1): Yes, I may organize something there. Then I bring you there. Prabhupāda: I am going to Johannesburg today. If you think that my presence will be beneficial, then after a week I can come back. Guest (1): Yes, Swamijī. Therefore I... Prabhupāda: This is a very good program. Very good. Guest (1): I shall tell them. There are many youngsters. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So if you think my presence will be very beneficial, then after one week I shall come back. Our life is dedicated for this purpose. Whenever the... Ānukulyena kṛṣṇanuśilanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Wherever there is opportunity, take advantage of it. That is our mission. Little light*-fan it to make it fire. That is our mission. I welcome all these suggestions from you. Now you be serious and do it. If you like, I shall come back after a week. Guest (1): Yes. I have contacted two president of village. For example, Iskadye(?) There is a village known as Iskadye. Now there is Marshali.(?) Prabhupāda: And we have no distinction that "He is Hindu. He is Muslim. He is Christian." No. Everyone is welcome to take this culture, education. We have no such sectarian view. No. Devotee: Excuse me. Your idea is a program similar to what we've done or been doing previously? Guest (1): No, Swamijī. Previously you have been only going one day in a village. Only one day means two hours or like this. People are influenced... Prabhupāda: Once or continual. Yes. That is required. Guest (1): Yes. A continual program. Prabhupāda: "Knock, knock, knock, and the door will open." That philosophy. Guest (1): They have been a little in the villages with books and doing saṅkīrtana in the street. That is very good. But it... Prabhupāda: Yes. Do saṅkīrtana. The villagers will join. Guest (1): But at the same time, if we collect all the people together and put it in place and talk to them every day, continually for seven days or eight days... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is possible. These are all practical proposals. There is nothing impossibility. Guest (1): Yes. Don't you think so, Swamijī? I have proposed... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Paṇḍāls? Guest (1): Yes. We may build paṇḍāls also. That will be... Because... Prabhupāda: Paṇḍāl or no paṇḍāl. You can sit on open place. There is no harm. Cyavana: We can build a paṇḍāl in one day and put up. Prabhupāda: In villages we can sit down underneath a tree. That is paṇḍāl. Why should you unnecessarily spend money? Just cleanse the ground and sit down. That's all. Makes everything simplified. Guest (1): If it's raining there, Swamijī. Rainy days. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Rainy day. Guest (1): For that we need paṇḍāls. Prabhupāda: So think. Kṛṣṇa is giving you intelligence. Think over, and Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence. Guest (1): I don't know whether it is practical, Swamijī. That is another suggestion. Like you are here for about seven days. Don't you think it would be good if you come here and you call people, youngsters, for example, those who are interested in the Vedic culture, would come here, in any place, for about seven days or eight days to stay with you and to learn what you want to say. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like a camp. Guest (1): Like a camp, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are welcome. Guest (1): You would prepare... At least every individual get one young man who will come. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Very good suggestion. Immediately accepted. Oh, yes. I speak only selected young men, and they will speak. Yes. That is wanted. Guest (1): And it will be easier for us to go to their village. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): They would guide us. Prabhupāda: That is very good suggestion. Guest (1): When do you think that you could do it? Prabhupāda: Yes. I can immediately begin. Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I can give you our address in Johannesburg, and you can write letter trying to organize it. Prabhupāda: How long it takes to go from here? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's just a few hours. Johannesburg letter would only take two, three days. Prabhupāda: So you keep the address and be in correspondence. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Best if everything is set up beforehand, so when Prabhupāda comes it is already organized. Guest (1): Yes. We can put it in newspaper. Prabhupāda: But one thing you must be assured, that if you can introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, everyone will be happy. Be rest assured. That's a fact. Guest (1): Because if you go to the villages... Prabhupāda: Everyone will be happy. Men and animal, everyone will be happy. Even the trees and plants, they will be happy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We could have big saṅkīrtana parties in the villages here too. Brahmānanda: How is it that the trees and plants will be happy? Prabhupāda: Because they will hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not only trees and plants. The insects and everyone, they will have the opportunity of hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will benefit. *Guest (1): If we have got this act, Swamijī, here itself we can organize it. For example, we are getting holidays in November, school holidays, twenty*-first November. So we can put it in the newspaper that "Those who are interested, young people from fifteen or twenty to thirty or forty, these people can send their letters and they would come. So we can answer them through newspaper, also radio, through TV, so that they would come... Prabhupāda: Yes. If you do organize, then I shall stay. It is very good program. Let us give it some shape with your good cooperation. So Kṛṣṇa is giving you intelligence. He is giving so nice program. So do it practically. Guest (1): And we can conquer out there. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Paraṁ vijayate śrī*-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. Śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtana is so powerful that it will conquer. It will be victorious. So I am very glad to meet you. And do this program. And if you like, I shall come back after a week and do. Utilize me in this way, I shall be very glad. That's all right. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- October 6, 1975, Durban Prabhupāda: English, economics, philosophy or..., mostly Scottish... I was educated in Scottish Churches College. The philosophy professor, Dr. W. S. Urquhart, he was very friendly to me, very kind, just like father. [break] ...he became vice chancellor. He was a very learned man, and very nice man, W. S. Urquhart. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Did they teach in English or Bengali? Prabhupāda: No, no. English. Medium English. *Harikeśa: He was the one who said that the woman's brain is thirty*-six ounces? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (chuckles) Yes. No, not only he, another professor, Dr. Stephen (indistinct), he also said. That's a fact. Artificially they are trying. It has no meaning. But by agitation you can do anything. That is another thing. But that is not the fact. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. These are all Indian quarters? No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This area? No, I think this is more European. But where we're staying is Indian area. It's all Indian. Prabhupāda: These European professors, they had to learn Bengali. They knew Bengali. It was compulsory. All European officers who used to come to India for responsible post, it was obligated. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Did they come mostly for missionary work? Was that their purpose? Prabhupāda: Our professors, they came from missionary, but there were other officers in government service, I.C.S., Indian Civil Service. They were also. In the province where they were employed he must learn the provincial language. Their administration was excellent, undoubtedly, British administration. Nobody in the world, so far administration... But their crooked policy ruined them; otherwise good administrator, good politician, good diplomat. Harikeśa: They made those nice buildings in Delhi, too. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, and everything good. Simply heart was not very good. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Heart. Prabhupāda: "Only for Englishmen," "Only for Englishmen." Still that policy is going on here. That is not good. When one takes shelter of you, you must give him proper protection. That liberality is not there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They would make the people dependent upon them and then exploit them, yes? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the fault. Exploitation was their policy. Whole European, the France, Holland-go some other country and exploit. They were doing the same thing in America also. Therefore America rebelled. Washington was Englishman. Still, he rebelled. He separated. Independent. A small country and bring money from the whole world*-this is their bad policy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's actually amazing how they colonized. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It was actually amazing to think how they colonized almost... Prabhupāda: They were obliged to do that. In the country there is no food, no shelter, nothing. Therefore Hitler's determination was, "I shall make this shopkeeper nation again fishers." What is called? Fishermen. "I shall ruin their empire." So he did it. But he also became ruined. He did it. He ruined the Englishmen, but he also became ruined, finished, Germany finished. But Germany will be able to rise again. Englishmen will not be able to. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why is that, Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: They committed so many sinful activities, yes, for maintaining their empire. To sell their Manchester*-made cloth they ruined the cloth industry of India and cut this finger. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cut the thumb off. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thumbs of the weavers so that they cannot manufacture anymore. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very bad. Prabhupāda: There are so many other things. Harikeśa: They cut the thumbs of the weavers? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They were making finer cloth by hand than the British were making by machines. So in order to discourage, they would cut off the thumb so they couldn't weave. Prabhupāda: So many things. And to make a show, the Lord Hasting was impeached in the Parliament. Here the black men, they are Africans. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. In this country there's nineteen million Africans and about over five million Europeans, about one million Indian people, and about one million colored people. Prabhupāda: So these women, what they are carrying on the head? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know. What do they carry, Gokulendra prabhu? Gokulendra: They carry all sorts of things, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Sometimes they carry their supplies that they... Prabhupāda: They are local women or... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. But they don't allow the Africans to live in the cities. They have to travel long distances, unless they are servants at some house. For the Africans to live in the cities, they have passes. They have to have a pass. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Black men. The Indians, they cannot? They can? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, Indians don't need pass. The Indians, however, they were only allowed to live where they were born. They aren't allowed to move around. But this year they finished that law. Now the Indians can live anywhere in South Africa in Indian areas. They can move around to different cities. Before this year they weren't allowed to do it. Prabhupāda: So post... [break] ...service is not good? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, it is fairly good. But the Africans, they are so many they have to queue up. I don't think, in America, that the American negroes would be able to queue up and wait as patiently as these people. I think they have a little... Prabhupāda: They have been trained up. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: British influence. [break] Prabhupāda: ...appears it is very clean city. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This area is downtown, it's not so clean. Downtown is not so clean. This area is. Prabhupāda: This is residential or industrial? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Over here is all residential, European apartment houses. And along the beach there is all hotels. This is a very big resort area in South Africa. There's a... Whole south coast, going down for about eighty miles, is all resorts. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...English*-made city? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Durban is English city. Capetown has Dutch influence. Prabhupāda: It resembles Melbourne. Melbourne. Australian Melbourne, this quarter resembles. [break] ...from Indian Ocean? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Indian Ocean. *Prabhupāda: Africa, one side Atlantic, one side Indian. [break] ...is growing on the sand, and they say there is no life in the sand. (break*-windy beach) ...Bhoga. Bhoga means sense gratification, and aiśvarya, opulence. Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām: [Bg. 2.44] "Those who are lost of consciousness, such persons become attached to sense gratification and material opulence," bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām, "and not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Vyavasāyātmikā-buddhiḥ: "How to become spiritually liberated, they do not care for it." These things do not interest them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We're finding that most of our devotees, though, are coming from America. America is the most opulent place. Prabhupāda: No, no, not most coming. Some coming. The American population is very great. If most would have come, then things would have been different. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Some of the fortunate persons like you, you are coming. Kona, kona, "some fortunate." Kona bhāgyavān jīva. But you can convert them to become fortunate. Devotee can do that. Bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām. They are thinking very much advanced, but they are lost of their sense, lost of their intelligence. They think of us as foolish. We do not enjoy life. (laughter) And we think of them as animals. This is the position. Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānām. "Those who are spiritually fixed up, their determination is one, and those who are not fixed up, their mind is diverted in so many things, unnecessary things." [break] *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...vādīs have given the philosophy that "Yes, vyavasāyātmikā*-buddhir ekeha, make the intelligence one, but you can think of anything. You can think of a rock, you can think of the sky." Prabhupāda: You rascal. Anything... Anything one. So if I think of hell, will that do? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, the Māyāvādī says, "Anything is as good as anything else." Prabhupāda: Yes. How rascal they are. Anything else... This is Ramakrishna Mission's. They are rascals. These rascals, they do not know anything, and still, they have made a missionary activity. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I have read one Māyāvādī. He says that it's as good to meditate on your wife as it is to meditate on Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Just see. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I read that, really. So degraded. Prabhupāda: Then why do you take sannyāsa? Think of your wife at home. Why do you take sannyāsa? Just see how rascal they are. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have gone against all the Vedic principles. Prabhupāda: Remain at home; *think of your wife. Everyone is doing that. Then why do you take sannyāsa and cheat others? Māyāvādam asac*-chāstram. Asat, it is very abominable philosophy. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...is about twenty miles up this coast. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The house that I was telling you about, the other house, is twenty miles up this coast. *Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...only on Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise all these Māyāvādīs would have disturbed us. They got... This man says this, this man says this... We kick out all these things. Only what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all. Asac*-chāstram pracchannaṁ bauddham ucyate. You can take. Harikeśa: (whispers:) Sit in the back. [break] Gokulendra: Yesterday, on Saturday morning, we had the first saṅkīrtana in the European area, chanting. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Praison? (?) Gokulendra: Yes. The police stopped us after about half an hour. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They went into the European area yesterday for chanting, Saturday morning. Usually we do the Indian area in Durban. But in Johannesburg we only do the European area saṅkīrtana. We have no trouble there. They say that Durban, being very much... Did the truck go? Yes? Why doesn't Prabhupāda go back in the truck? Devotee: It's stuck in the sand. We'll have to push to make the wheels straight. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So let Prabhupāda come back in the truck. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...have gone too much in the sand. It is dangerous. [break] ...panded so much, these Britishers, a few million people. This is demonic. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye manoratham: "I have got now so much. Now let me increase more." Never satisfied. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye mano: "I want to be the richest man, God." That was the British policy*-ambition. Material ambition is like that. It increases more and more. [break] ...British buildings or American? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: South African. Prabhupāda: South African. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A lot of investment comes from both America and England, industries. Prabhupāda: So England has got money to invest still? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They do much investment here in South Africa. [break] Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's a sidewalk here. Would you prefer walking on the sidewalk or the sands? Prabhupāda: Yes, sidewalk is better. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Okay. A little bit hard on the... Harikeśa: Did we pass by a park when we were coming? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We will check out some places today. [break] ...cold spell now. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A cold spell. It's been cold the last few days. [break] Prabhupāda: ...keepers are mostly Indians? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indian. All here are Indian. And just the other side of the bridge, all is Indian. This building here, Prabhupāda, this big building is built by one of our life members. All of our life members, they are competing who can build bigger building. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (laughing) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And they are putting nightclubs on the top of their buildings. So foolish. Prabhupāda: Lakhani. This is Indian building. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These are life members. Prabhupāda: Lakhani. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: P. V. Lakhani. He was there last night. Prabhupāda: So they are improving in the midst of obstacles, eh? The Indians? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are not given good facilities. Still, they are improving. [break] ...is there in your stock? Harikeśa: Chewra is. Prabhupāda: Chewra is there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Chewra also we can purchase. Harikeśa: Yesterday that puffed rice was Rice Krispies, cereal. Prabhupāda: That was nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You like with peas? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Peanuts? Prabhupāda: Not peas, that green... Yes, green peas. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fried. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like yesterday. That's nice. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] ...things without Kṛṣṇa consciousness is dead body. Aprāṇasya hi dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka*-rañjanam. It may be captivating to the foolish men, but it has no value. Because the person who is engaged in these things, he does not know what is the value of life, what is the goal of life. He is wasting time. The house will remain as it is; he will go to hell. That he does not know. The nature's law is different. That is acting in a different way, which you do not know. He is forcing you to become old. He is forcing you to die. Still, you do not know how much you are under the grip of the laws of nature. Such a foolish man, and you are engaged in building skyscraper. Just see. He does not take care that "I am being forced to become something against my will, and I am freely doing all this nonsense." Just like the dog. Dog is thinking, "I am free," running here and there. As soon as the master, "Come on." (laughter) Just see. Even dog has no sense that "I was jumping like free, but I am not free." That sense he hasn't got. So if a human being has not so such sense, what is the difference between him and the dog? Hm? This is to be considered. But they have no sense, no brain, no education, and they are still going on as civilized. Just see. Mūḍha. Therefore mūḍho ('yaṁ) nābhijānāti [Bg. 7.25]. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think that this is the most civilized that human beings have ever been, this modern so*-called civilization. *Prabhupāda: Civilization... If you remain in a dog's position, is that civilization? I proved that you are in a dog's position. How can you refute the argument which I have put, that you are in a dog's position? Exactly the dog. Śva*-viḍ-varaha. Dog's position, hog's position, camel's position, and ass's position. These four animals have been compared. Śva, viḍ-varāha, uṣṭra, khara. And "I have been given vote." Yes, śva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ. You are animal, and other animals, they are giving you vote. That's all. You are very much proud that you are minister, you have got vote, but who has given you vote? The same animal class. What is the meaning of your vote? Śva-viḍ... How selected words in the Bhāgavatam. Śva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This desire to accumulate money, is this just like annamaya stage? Prabhupāda: That is doggish. The example, he has got already one loaf, but another dog: "This is also my stock." Why you should hanker after another? You have got already. Be satisfied. "No." That is doggish mentality. (end) Morning Walk -- October 7, 1975, Durban Prabhupāda (inside car): "Please give up this post. Go away." "Why?" "Why? No 'why.' Give up. Die immediately." "All right, what can I do?" "No protest. No. You must immediately vacate." "How things will go on? I am prime minister?" That, "Nonsense... I'll kick you on the face. Get out." Then he has to accept, and he is prime minister. He has to accept the order of nature, prakṛti. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27], ahaṅkāra. And still he says, "I am. I am. I am lord. I am minister. I am this. I am that." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ahaṅkāra. Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra vimūḍhātmā. Rascal. Not only ahaṅkāra vimūḍhātmā, no knowledge. Such a big, very big rascals, Stalin, Lenin, when nature ordered, "Die now. Finish your business..." And still, they are proud. I am doing all these things, and where is the guarantee that I shall stay here? At any moment I shall be asked to go away. No sense. First of all make it assured that you shall be able to remain here. "No. That is not... I shall... When I... I'll go away. Let me do it." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they say now, Prabhupāda, that there's no soul and life is just a combination of elements. Prabhupāda: Soul, your... It will take many millions of years to understand soul, but this is your position; you understand it, that you'll be kicked out at any moment. Why don't you understand this? There is no question of understanding soul. That is far away. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes over pay, that they're not getting enough money, they will riot. And the white policemen, they come and shoot them. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Simply shoot them. Prabhupāda: Shoot. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kill them. Prabhupāda: Hm. They are keeping them in control. That is the way they should be kept in control, śūdras. [break] *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...very anti*-Communist. They have an anti-Communist terrorism act. Anyone who is too much leading in their Communist ideas, they put them away. They have an island called Robert's Island. They simply detain them there indefinitely. [break] Very stable. Very stable. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That is nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't have a welfare state here. Prabhupāda: Why? That is not good. People will be lazy. In special cases the government may give some help, not that the bachelor daddies, and getting welfare, all the girls, and going to be prostitutes. In America they have created purposefully prostitutes. They know they will get money, and they have illicit sex. That's all. The social condition is not good. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You can go down by the strand. [break] ...parks here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but they open up later. Prabhupāda: Oh. When they open? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: About seven*-thirty. Botanical gardens. [break] Prabhupāda: These are owned by Indians? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These are some Muslim shops and Indian shops mostly. [break] Prabhupāda: ...are employed in the factory? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Very menial labor, driving trucks and delivery. Gokulendra, when he went to... Prabhupāda: They are given equal facility for education? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. When Gokulendra went to England he saw a European man with a pick in his hand, and he couldn't believe it, because in South Africa you never see a European person with a pick opening up the street. Only the Africans do things like that. And they'll have one European man standing there, directing. He'll make so much money. [break] Prabhupāda: Indians are taken within the group of black? No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they have white and nonwhite. So technically speaking, they can classify all of the Indians as nonwhite. But at the same time, there is more division, and they have Indian community, and they have the colored community and the African community. Prabhupāda: The government officer, responsible post, they are offered to the Indians? No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Government? Prabhupāda: Government responsible post. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The police? Prabhupāda: No, not police. Any responsible office. They are equally open? No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They have facility. The philosophy of the government is that they have separate development. This is why they call it a apartheid. They have separate hospitals for the Indians. They have separate schools. Prabhupāda: And for the black? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For the Africans? They don't have so much now. Very poor facility. Prabhupāda: Oh. So the government gives facilities to the Indians, but separately. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not with them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not with them. Prabhupāda: That is not bad. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It has preserved, little bit, the feeling of Hinduism here. Prabhupāda: And for the black people there is no hospital? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have hospitals also, but not as good facility, because there are so many, and they haven't developed it sufficiently. Prabhupāda: Medical help is free? No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: It is to be paid. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But it is very inexpensive. Prabhupāda: Education? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that education is free for Africans, is it? Devotee (1): It's very, very cheap, but not for the colored, of course.(?) There are probably many more African schools than European schools, because there are so many Africans, it's very difficult... Prabhupāda: On the whole, the white man is governing. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, completely. Prabhupāda: They are keeping, governing. This is Indian house. Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is Indian shopping, all Indian shops here. From here back is all Indian. Prabhupāda: So the European come here to shop, for shopping? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: They are Indians or, these, white? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Muslims. Most of these Muslims originally from Gujarat side. Their forefathers came here. Prabhupāda: They are called Boris. (pronounces "Boreez") Boris Muslim. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Boris Muslim. Prabhupāda: They were formerly Hindus. All Muslims were Hindus formerly. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have an Islamic propagation center here, and I went there. I was walking by one day. They invited me in. So they began to blaspheme this and that. So I asked them, "What is your conception of God?" He said, "God is beyond conception." So I told him that "Therefore you cannot say that Kṛṣṇa is God and you cannot say that Kṛṣṇa is not God, because you don't know what God is." Prabhupāda: Then what did he say? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He couldn't reply. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you have no conception of God, how can you deny or accept? Remain fool, that's all. That is the difficulty. When you ask them, whole world, "What is the conception of God?" they'll not be able to answer. Still, they will say there is no God. This is the foolishness going on all over the world. Actually they are not concerned with God. They accept the idea of God or so*-called God for their material facilities. "O God, give us our daily bread. That's all. If You supply daily bread, then I accept You. Otherwise I reject You." This is their... When there is a war, Churchill will ask them to go, victory, "V": "Go and pray to God." God is order-supplier. And when they declare war, they do not consult God. When there is reverse condition they go to it. This is going on, that God means order-supplier. "Whatever I desire, if You are God then You supply me. Otherwise I reject You." What they will understand, intimate relationship with God, to serve Him as father, as mother, as friend? What they will understand, these rascals? It is not possible. They have no idea of God. Therefore they cannot understand. God is asking, sarva-dharmān parityajya. [Bg. 18.66] "What is this?" They cannot understand. Therefore they misinterpret. What is this? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is, er... This is one park, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There is less wind here than on the beach. *Prabhupāda: No, we can go to the beach. What is that? If it is closed... [break] (Out of car:) The Indians are also coming to that point. The beginning is the rascal Vivekananda. He says, "Where you are searching God? Don't you see so many gods are loitering in the street, poor? Better you serve them. Why do you go to the temple?" This is their propaganda. That means no conception of God. The Ārya*-samājīs also, they say, "There is no God in the temple." So in India the Jains, they also say, "There is no God." The Buddhists, they also say, "There is no God." The Christians, they have got very vague idea. So where is God? No God. It is only we are crying, "Here is God." Otherwise, whole world, they are trying to banish God, the Kaṁsa's policy, "Kill God," whole world, the Communists, total. This is our position. Is it wet? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very, very slightly. Not much. [break] Prabhupāda: ...is interested in God throughout the whole world, cent percent. We are simply canvassing, "Here is God. Take to God." This is our position. And still, some of you are cooperating with me. That is good fortune. Otherwise nobody is interested in God, nobody. They have no idea of God. They are not interested in God. Still, we are predominant, or people know us as Hare Kṛṣṇa people. This is our good luck. Nobody... My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "There is no scarcity of anything in this world. Only scarcity is Kṛṣṇa consciousness." He used to say like that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a way to go down here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a way to go down to the right over here, to walk. Prabhupāda: No, we can walk on this. This is nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is okay? *Prabhupāda: This is open. We can walk. [break] Nirākāra, impersonalist, "God is formless"*-that is another way of denying God, gentlemanly way of denying God. "Yes, there is God, but He has no head." (chuckles) What kind of God? "He has no head. He has no tail, He has no leg, He has... He cannot see. He cannot eat." Then what He is? This is another way of denying God. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...reasonable to put forward the argument that if man can do all of these things, then God must be able to do at least those things plus more. Prabhupāda: No. God has no head. Then what can he do? Devotee (2): I asked one lady, she said, "God wants to test your faith that... Ultimately He has no form, but He wants to test your faith to see if you..." Prabhupāda: No, how He'll test? He has no head. How He'll test? Unless one has got head, how he can act with brain? Where you get this idea that one has no head, still he has got brain? Where you get this idea? Hm? The brain substance is within the head. This is our experience. So where do you get this idea that He has no head and still He has got brain? Hm? What is the answer? Harikeśa: They will say that God is man's conception. Prabhupāda: That means... You say directly, "There is no God. It is a false conception only." You say directly. That is understandable. But why do you say all these nonsense, that "God is there, but He has no head, He has no tail, He has no hands, He has no...?" What is this? Tell directly that "There is no God." The Buddhists say, "There is no God." That is understandable. Why do you cheat? The Christian also believe like that? Harikeśa: Nowadays they do. Prabhupāda: Oh. What do they? Harikeśa: When we went to Hyderabad we spoke to the Archbishop, and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami asked him, "What is God?" And he said, "Well, nowadays there are so many theories as to what is God." Prabhupāda: Theories. Harikeśa: "Actually nobody knows." Prabhupāda: Just see. A head of religious group, and he says, "There are so many theories." And this rascal is the head of the group. So what is the group? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They must be rascals too. Prabhupāda: That's it. Devotee (2): Well, sometimes... Just like in the Kṛṣṇa book how Kṛṣṇa spoke to Kamsa out of the air, they say, "Well, God speaks but you can't see Him. But you can hear Him. He speaks sometimes out of the air." Prabhupāda: Then God speaks. Then speaks means He has got mouth. Otherwise how He speaks? Devotee (2): But they say, "Well, we couldn't see Him." *Prabhupāda: But you cannot see. Suppose there is some sound comes from the upstairs but you cannot see, but that does not mean that he is not there. This is nonsense. As soon as hear, he is speaking, he has got his mouth, he has got his head, he has got his brain. Everything comes, one point. And if you are rascal, fool-you cannot understand*-that is another thing. Somebody is speaking from there. I hear, but I cannot see. Does it mean that he is not there? That is rascal said. Intelligent man will say, "As soon as there is something, immediately you can understand..." Harikeśa: Well, God is so great, He... *Prabhupāda: Just like there is sunshine. Immediately we can understand there is fire. Therefore heat and light is there. It is common sense. And the sunshine is there, and "There is no fire. There is no heat"*-what is this nonsense? Therefore, they, all of them are rascals and nonsense, who talks foolishly like that. Harikeśa: Well, God is so great He doesn't require a mouth to speak. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: He is so great, He doesn't require a mouth to speak. Prabhupāda: He doesn't require? Then where...? But where do you get, you rascal? Where do you get this idea that without mouth one can speak? Harikeśa: Well, all the energy can just flow any way He wants. Prabhupāda: No, where you get this idea? You are manufacturing, but you are rascal, so your manufacturing has no value. First of all prove that without mouth one can speak. Where is that idea? Where you get this idea? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even when we preach to these Christians... There's one passage in the Bible that says that "Man is created in the image of God." So we show them that "This is God, Kṛṣṇa," and they say, "No, no, no, no, no, can't be." But still, the image is there, that man has an image, a likeness, to God. He has two arms. He has two eyes. But still, they can't accept if we say that Kṛṣṇa is God. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. They'll... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Envious. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is rascaldom. They'll... Harikeśa: They say He must be a very old man. He must be very old with a big, long beard. Prabhupāda: So that we shall consider later on. He is a man like. First of all accept that. Then whether He is old or young, we shall consider later on. First of all accept that either old or young, He is a man like, shape, form. Then we shall talk other things. Then what is the use of talking with them, with a rascal? That is the point. There is no use, talking with these rascals. Waste of time. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But there's practically no one to preach to if we don't preach to them. *Prabhupāda: They are rascals. What is the use? That is advised, prema*-maitri kṛpopekṣā, four things. Preacher-there are four things for him. One thing is he should love God. He should make friendship with devotees. He should preach amongst the innocent, and he should kick on the face of the atheist. Upekṣā. "Hut! (laughter) I don't like you." That's all, no business with him. This is preacher. Preacher should love God; preacher should make friendship with devotees; preacher will preach amongst the innocent, poor; and those who are atheist, nonbeliever, kick on his face. Don't care for him. "Go away. Get out." That's all. That much mercy upon them. "Get out, rascal." But sometimes we take the risk of talking with these rascals also. That is our mercy. But according to śāstra, they are to be kicked out. They are not to be taken care of because it is waste of time. Harikeśa: They just don't want to accept, no matter what. Prabhupāda: No, no, even they have no argument, they have no logic, so what is the use of talking? What is the use? Simply waste of time. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So is it better if someone argues against our philosophy or if someone doesn't argue at all and simply doesn't accept it either? Prabhupāda: No, if he argues... If you can understand that by argument, if you come to conclusion, they will accept, then talk with them. If they remain dog, what is the use of talking with a dog? Dog will never accept any argument. It will remain dog. So better avoid that. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's very difficult to give good instruction to a dog. It simply barks. Prabhupāda: No. Therefore I say, they should be neglected. Harikeśa: Just give them prasādam and kīrtana. Prabhupāda: That's all, yes. No argument. "Please come and take prasādam." That much mercy should be shown to them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are displaying their cannon. They are displaying weapons. Prabhupāda: That is their only asset. And when they are kicked out by the cannon of nature, they tolerate. That's all. They are showing their cannon, but ask them, "Can you defend yourself from the cannon of nature when he kicks out, 'Get out'?" You may be very big commander and captain or leader, but when death comes can you avoid it? Then what is your leadership? What will your cannon do? You kill nature by your cannon and live. That you cannot do. Then where is the value of your cannon? Eh? Why you are so much proud of showing your cannon? What you can do with this cannon? Devotee (2): They know how to destroy everything, but they can't create anything nice. *Prabhupāda: No question of creating. They have destroyed themselves. Save yourself from destruction. Then you talk of destruction. You destroy. That's all right. But you will be destroyed by some other greater power. What you are going to do that? What you have done for that purpose? You destroy. That is going on, nature's way. I am killing somebody, somebody is killing me. That is nature's way. So what is your special credit? There is no credit. There is no credit. You save yourself not to be destroyed by others. "I can destroy others but nobody can destroy me"*-that Hiraṇyakaśipu tried. But that is not possible. Ultimately he was destroyed. That's all. Devotee (2): They don't seem to care too much about the future. *Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Therefore we call them rascals. Therefore we have given this position, rascal, that's all. Talk too much, do nothing*-that is rascal. (bugles sound in background) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This old fort? This is actually called "Old Fort" isn't it? This part is built around a commemoration to a very old military fort. British. Prabhupāda: Where is that fort? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's supposed to be some kind of museum over here. I don't think the fort is still standing. Prabhupāda: And where are the fort makers? (laughter) Where they have gone? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They were shot out of the cannon. Prabhupāda: So what is the meaning of this fort? If the fort makers are themselves finished, then what is the use of making fort? Devotee (2): "Why should we live anymore? We're not getting any pleasure out of life. There's no future. Why should..." People are happy to die these days, because there is no pleasure. Prabhupāda: There is no... Who said there is no pleasure? Devotee (2): Well, in this world. I mean, this world is more or less suffering. Prabhupāda: No, they say, "There is no pleasure," so then why you are wasting your time for pleasure? Devotee (2): Yes, but they are confused. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They want to enjoy, but they're not finding pleasure. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we give you enjoyment. Come to Kṛṣṇa. No tree? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There are some mango trees behind the house where we're staying, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're not in season right now. There is some fruit on this tree. See up there? There is some fruit. Could be a mango tree. *Prabhupāda: What are these plants? Pineapple? No. Different. [break] ...intelligent. Just like here is sunshine. Wherefrom the sunshine is coming? We can see the sun globe. So what is the arrangement there? This is inquiry. And there must be some heating arrangement, lighting arrangement. There must be some fire. And who has made this fire? How it came, so big fire that the whole universe is heated and light? This is inquiry. And see the sunshine and say, "It is nature," and finish business, dismiss all other questions*-what is this nonsense? "I am great scientist." Eh? What is your reply? "It is nature, that's all." A great scientist. That a child can say also. It is automatic. That is not intelligence. If the scientists simply study the sunshine, they will have to come to the conclusion there is God. But they will not do that. They will bluff others, they will cheat others, and they will be cheated. And still they pass on as great scientist. Study the sunshine, wherefrom it is coming. You have no experience that unless there is arrangement at night, there is no sunshine, why you make so much arrangement for heat and light by electricity, by this way and that way and there is no arrangement nature? But such foolish talks we have to hear from so-called scientists? That is going on. Harikeśa: They like to think that everything evolved so they can think that eventually... Prabhupāda: What is the...? Why you do not manufacture something that everything will evolve? Why you have to search out for petrol? Let petrol evolve within your car. Make such arrangement. Why you are anxious to get petrol from Arabia? Evolve petrol. Make some scientific discovery that petrol is evolving, so when the machine is going on, petrol is also evolving. Then you are scientist. Evolve. The theory of evolve will come. But you cannot do that. Why do you say nonsense? Darwin's theory-"extinct." Now he is extinct. Does it mean so many other Charles are also extinct? There are many thousands of Charles Darwins. They are existing. So where is his theory of extinction? He is a man. He is no longer existing. And so many millions and millions of men are existing. Where is the question of extinct? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they found that certain species of life... Prabhupāda: But he belongs to some species, English species, but he is gone. Does it mean the English species is gone? These rascals, they are big scientist and we have to accept them. [break] As a person, he is extinct. Does it mean that the English people are extinct? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. *Prabhupāda: Then? Why does he say "extinct"? These cheaters, they cheat themselves and bluff others and mislead the people. This is their position. We want at least that people may not be bluffed by these rascals and waste their time. That we want, that much. They may say that "You are not scientist." Yes, I am not scientist, but I can request you that don't be bluffed by this nonsense. That much I can say. I can prove that he is a nonsense. Why you are wasting time after them? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]...their folly, European men. Where the American men will go? (laughter) Just see. [break] ...from India they made Indian center, and they conquered both sides*-Far East, Middle East, Africa-with Indian soldiers. They organized Indian soldiers and Sikhs and Gurkhas, and they employed them for extending their empire. British soldier does not mean... Maybe two, one or two British commanders, but real soldiers were Indians. Devotee (3): The Indian soldiers were known as the Gurkhas. Prabhupāda: Gurkhas and Sikhs. Devotee (3): Of Nepal. Prabhupāda: Yes. You know that? [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Whatever the leaders do, then the other people will follow. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...India also there is such tendency towards sense gratification? Prabhupāda: Everywhere. India... Why do you speak India or America? That is the tendency everywhere. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because when the British came, the Indians took up so many of the habits of the British. Prabhupāda: No, no, before that also. But that habit was controlled by Indian culture. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I see. Prabhupāda: That is the specific position of Vedic culture. The habit, that tendency is there, but by Indian Vedic culture these base tendencies are checked and they are made, I mean to say, given opportunity to advance. That is brahminical culture. The brāhmaṇas voluntarily rejected all these. That is ideal, that "Here is an idea!" But here at the present moment there is no such idea! Everyone is after material enjoyment. There is no ideal that "Here is a person who doesn't care for anything. Still he is so exalted." That is wanted. That ideal is not now. Therefore I am trying to create such ideal men. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is happening actually by this movement. *Prabhupāda: We are not for material opulence. We are for ideal character. That is wanted. But they have no idea that there can be a class of men, ideal character, ideal knowledge, ideal advancement. They have no such idea. "Simply bring money and enjoy sense gratification," that's all. In that way they will never be happy, but foolish person, they have no leader to give them ideal and neither by nature they are not inclined. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. Who is giving them ideal that "Come to God, and you will be satisfied"? Nobody is giving. They are simply durāśayā. They are thinking by material opulence they will be happy. This is their ignorance. Therefore so much struggle all over the world. It is not the question of India or America. It is the material way of life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They put forward the argument sometimes, though, that it is very natural to try to enjoy. Everyone is doing it, so why should we fight the nature? People say like this. *Prabhupāda: You enjoy, but where is your enjoyment? Why don't you see to this? Therefore this is not the way of enjoyment. We say there is enjoyment. Just like a diseased person, he wants enjoyment. How he can enjoy? He is diseased person. It is not possible for the diseased person to enjoy. First of all he has to cure his disease. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. First of all, your existence should be purified by tapasya. Be cured of the disease. Then you'll enjoy. Enjoyment is your right. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). That is your right, but you are now diseased. Why don't you see to this? You are dying therefore. You are becoming old therefore. This is your disease. That they will not admit. In the diseased condition they want to enjoy. Then tuberculosis. If a tuberculosis person, suffering from tuberculosis, he wants to enjoy sex, that means he will die very soon. His life is finished. But he wants that, that "I shall suffer from tuberculosis, at the same time enjoy." Then all right, go to hell. What can be done? Enjoyment is the life, but when you are diseased, you must first of all "Heal thyself," then enjoy. That enjoyment will be nice. This is the instruction of śāstra, that you are working so hard day and night like hogs and dogs, but where is your enjoyment? First of all cure your disease. Then you will be happy. Simply working hard like hogs and dogs, you are thinking that you will enjoy. That is not possible. Hogs and dogs, they simply work hard, but there is no enjoyment. Is there any enjoyment in the life of dogs and hogs? They simply work hard, that's all. So human life is also meant for that purpose, that you will blindly work like hogs and dogs and no enjoyment? Still you are hankering after enjoyment. You should know what is enjoyment, how to do it. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say, though, that, for example, the sex urge and things like this, "If God has given us this sex urge why not satisfy it?" Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if... Sex urge... But as soon as you become old, you have got the sex urge, but you cannot enjoy. Why? You have got the instrument, you have got the body, and still, if you go to a young woman, then she will kick on your face: "Rascal, you have come to enjoy?" (laughter) Why? Why the young man kicks on your face? And you pay. Although you pay, still she kicks. So where is your sex enjoyment? Ayur gatiḥ kiṁ yuvatī nārī: "When your age is finished, what is the use of keeping one young woman?" You cannot enjoy. She will enjoy with others, and you will have to pay for that. This is going on. There is one Mr. (name withheld) in... You have heard the name of (name withheld)? That is (name withheld), his elder brother. He has got three, four wives, and for each wife he has got a big, big establishment. And the wife is enjoying with the secretaries and having dozens of children. And he knows that, but still he is keeping that establishment. Everyone knows that. He's old man. He is of my age, and four, five wives, and he is going to one wife's house in the morning, another wife's house in the noon, another wife's house... In this way he is paying for that, ten thousand, fifteen thousand rupees per establishment, and the wife is enjoying with others. And he is accumulating money to give to the children. He is anxious that "After all, they are my children. They must get at least five lakhs of rupees." This is his business. But it is not his children. This is going on, a practical, that rascal still working his brain how to get money to provide so many wives with comfort of life. That's all. There are many. (name withheld) is only one. In the Western countries there are many. Many. At night they go to the nightclub, pay for this. But still, he has no other information of enjoyment. He knows, "This is the only enjoyment, so let me come and see at this." This is going on. Mūḍha. He does not think, "Where is my enjoyment?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Either they have to surrender to these instructions or they remain mūḍha. *Prabhupāda: Mūḍhas, they are mūḍhas. They do not take instruction from Kṛṣṇa. That is mūḍha. Mūḍha means that*-who does not accept right instruction. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mūḍha nābhijānāti mām ebhya param avyayam. You have got two vans? No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, two vans and two cars. And this car we are using while you are here in Durban. (end) Morning Walk -- October 8, 1975, Durban Prabhupāda: ...money is finished. And there is no use because they have lost India. For India they made all these arrangements. But that India is lost, so what is the use of maintaining? The Gibraltar also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of the ships would go around the south of Africa up to England. So they would maintain their shipping route. But now... That's a fact. They don't need it. Prabhupāda: And that Suez Canal is closed, complete? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, it's open again. [break] It is not as Westernized as in a place like Nairobi. Prabhupāda: The Africans are all thieves. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Here there is not as much stealing as in Nairobi. [break] I think they have had to amputate afterwards, mangled by the shore. It happens frequently. On some of the beaches here they've put up signs that "There are many sharks in the water. It is dangerous to bathe here." Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad*-gītā, "Amongst fish, I am the shark." (Prabhupāda chuckles) He shaved off his beard yesterday, this young boy. He shaved off. He had beard. He shaved off. Prabhupāda: Oh. Further progress. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya. [break] Prabhupāda: ...900,000 forms of life in the water. How many they have seen? They are giving pictures. [break] Calcium carbonate, oil wintergreen, and soap powder, powder hard soap, and I will make toothpaste. Harikeśa: What is this soap powder? Prabhupāda: It is called powdered hard soap. (end) Room Conversation with the Rector, Professor Olivier and Professors of the University of Durban, Westville -- October 8, 1975, Durban Professor: ...this morning from the East and from the West. Unfortunately, the rector is busy... The principal is busy this morning with somebody in his office, but he will be here just now. So we may just as well, shall I say, introduce. Perhaps I should say something about the university. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Professor: Now, I just want to say as far as the... I don't think it's necessary for me to sketch the background history of the Indian community of... [break] Prabhupāda: You have given description. May I ask you one question? The transmigration of the soul, do you take it as science or religion? Professor: Yes. Here we take it as religion. Prabhupāda: Then what is your definition of religion? Professor: My definition of religion is ultimate..., which has to do with your ultimate concern. Ultimate concern. I mean, I can make religion out of... If my ultimate concern is money, then that is my religion, to put it that way. Or ideology and so forth... But it is my ultimate concern, what is my ultimate concern in life. What is my ultimate concern. Every man is religious. He's a homo religiosus, to put it in Latin. He's a religious being. Just as he wants to eat, he has to have religion. Prabhupāda: So the transmigration of the soul, you take it as religion. It is not a science. Professor: We haven't progressed so far. Prabhupāda: But so far we are concerned, that is the basic principle of our further investigation in religion. Professor: Yes. *Prabhupāda: We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is on the basis of Bhagavad*-gītā. So the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā is the teaching of transmigration of the soul. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So that is our first concern, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. This body will not exist, and we have to accept another body. Kṛṣṇa says, dehāntara-prāptiḥ, "another body." Now, there are 8,400,000 different types of body. Which body I am going to accept, there is no education. So I am kept in darkness. So what is the value of my education? Professor: You mean your future? Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not know what is my future. Then what is my education? Professor: Yes. Yes. Of course, that is one standpoint, isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, that is the main standpoint. I am taking education in the university. I do not know what is my future. Then where is the education? I am in darkness. Professor: Yes. But the main thing is, from the Hindu point of view, you have the... *Prabhupāda: It is not the Hindu point of view. It is science. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]-that is applicable both for Hindu, Muslim, Christian, everyone. Just like a Hindu child and a Muslim child. Does it mean that Hindu child will not grow to become young man? Only the Muslim will grow? The dehāntara-prāptiḥ-a child becomes a boy*-that is equally applicable to the Hindus, to the Muslim, to the Christian, to everyone. Professor: Of course, yes. Prabhupāda: Then where it is, the religion? It is the science. Professor: Yes. But the Christian, for example, says... Prabhupāda: No, no. I say from practical... A Hindu child becomes a boy, and Christian child also becomes a boy. You cannot say that because you are Christian, you will not become a boy. Can you say like that? Professor: Oh, no. Prabhupāda: Or because you are Christian, you will not become an old man. Can you say like that? So it is the science. So if this science is not in your university, then you are in darkness. Professor: Now we teach it as religion, but whether you take it... Prabhupāda: Again you say religion. It is not religion. It is science. Professor: Fine. You say it is science; I say it is religion. Prabhupāda: Now, you have to say, because you also grow. You shall also grow old man like me, not that because you are Christian you will not grow old man like me. Professor: In any case... *Prabhupāda: No, this is the first proposition, that if you keep people in darkness*-he does not know what is his future-then what is the use of education and university? Indian man (2): So do you mean that the university should be abolished? Prabhupāda: Not abolished. But education means that you must know what is your position. Indian man (2): With due respect, I want to know what is the line of demarcation between science and religion. Prabhupāda: Science means which is applicable to everyone. Religion is described in the dictionary, "a kind of faith." Faith... I may be Hindu today; tomorrow I may be Christian. That is... I can change. Indian man (2): But this is not the definition of true religion. Prabhupāda: No, no. I am not talking of religion. I am talking of science. Religion is a kind of faith. You may be believe or you may not believe. Indian man (2): No. There is no question of belief. The question is whether, what is the difference between religion and science? If difference is known, then the learned persons(?) can make him right or wrong at that time, but unless and until the demarcation of line between religion and science... *Prabhupāda: Now... Yes, that we can say like this, that "two plus two equal to four"*-this is applicable to the Hindus, Muslim, Christian, everyone. This is science. Professor: Yes. No, no, I understand. I understand. I know where your argument is going to. But any case, let us beg to differ. Because... Let us accept it. I just want to say I agree with you in this sense. I agree with you in this sense, Swami, that if we do not pay attention to the religious side, then we keep the people in darkness. We have to, on the religious side too. (someone entering) Professor Olivier, the rector. (introducing) ...And this is our Swami Bhaktivedanta. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The principal of the university, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. How are you? Professor: And Mister (indistinct) Singh from Pietermaritzburg, and Professor Maharaj you know. And all the other ladies and gentlemen. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to sit beside Śrīla Prabhupāda? Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you can explain what I was talking. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So the idea is that now you have secular state because the religion, as it is being taught today, is seen simply as some kind of dogma that can't be proven, some kind of blind faith. But in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa is giving scientific evidence, reason, how the existence of the soul can be proven. Religion means there must be soul. But people don't understand how soul is existing. They think it is simply beyond their conception or comprehension. Kṛṣṇa has made it so reasonable to understand the existence of the soul that any sane man would accept. For example, Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Any person can accept that they had a youthful body, childhood body, and then old man's body. The change of body is always there. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. And after this body we can reasonably accept that there is another body. Just as from childhood to youth there is change of body, from youth to old age there is change of body, similarly, old age, death, and then there is another change of body. But in all circumstances I am still the same person. My body is changed, but still I am experiencing that I am the same identity, the same person. So this education is lacking in the universities because, generally speaking, all of the scientists in the universities, they are simply dealing with this body, simply dealing biology, physics, chemistry-simply with the body. So where is the question that this is not science? It is science. It is the science of the soul. When our spiritual master went to Massachusetts Institute of Technology-it is a very well known technological university*-he questioned the faculty and students there that "You are the most advanced technological university in the world. Where is that department that tries to understand the difference between a dead body and a living body?" So this is science. You can't say that it's not science. And it should be accepted as science by university professors and taught as such. Otherwise, if we simply turn our back on this philosophy... Kṛṣṇa says, rāja-vidyā: "This is the king of knowledge." This is not some sentimental proposition we are putting forward, but it is the king of knowledge, that the soul is existing, and after this body there will be another body. So real education, therefore... Just like you come to the university. You want to get a better job, not that you go to the university so that you can work an elevator when you come out. You go to the university to increase your standard of living, to have higher standard of living. So real education, similarly, is that you can have higher standard of existence in your next life, not that I come to the university and simply live like animal and then have to be demoted to the body of an animal in my next lifetime. Rather, the real education is how we can be elevated from this human existence to higher existence, or to spiritual, eternal existence. So the purpose of the science of Bhagavad-gītā is just this, that janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. If you understand God in truth, and fact, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti: [Bg. 4.9] you will never take birth again in this material world, but you will go back to the spiritual world, called Vaikuṇṭha in Sanskrit language. Vaikuṇṭha means the spiritual world, the place where there is no repetition of birth and death. Prabhupāda: No anxiety. No anxiety. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No anxiety. Yes. Indian man (3): Excuse me, sir. We recognize six great religions of the world. Are you suggesting that the adherents of all the other religions of the world should accept as a science this doctrine of reincarnation or transmigration of soul? Are you suggesting that everyone, irrespective of the faith that they belong to, should accept the doctrine of reincarnation? Is that what you are suggesting? Prabhupāda: (aside:) You don't. Indian man (4): Another question is... Indian man (3): I want an answer, please. Are you suggesting that every person, whether he is Muslim or Christian or Buddhist or Jew or Parsi or anybody else for that matter, should accept the Hindu doctrine of transmigration or reincarnation of soul in order that he may be called really a religious person or a scientific person? Prabhupāda: Well, the difficulty is that we are talking of transmigration of the soul on scientific basis. But you are trying to give it a Hindu color. Why? To become... I have already explained. To become old man is equally applicable to the Hindus, Muslim, Christian. So why you say it is Hindu belief? It is not Hindu belief. It is a science. Why you are bringing "Hindu, Muslim, Christian"? I do not know why. Indian man (4): The real question between this statement of Mr. Professor and you is that what is religion and what is science. Unless the nature of science and religion defined... Prabhupāda: Yes. Science is applicable to everyone. Indian man (3): But when you use reason for proving your... Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the reason, that a child is becoming boy, a boy is becoming a young man, a young man is becoming... Indian man (3): Reason is the subject of logic, and logic is philosophy. So philosophy is the knowledge of generality, while the science is knowledge of particularity. Philosophy can be the subject of religion, but not the science can be the subject of religion. It is knowledge of particularity. Prabhupāda: It is not religion. First of all forget religion. I am talking of science. That a boy is becoming young man and young man is becoming old man, this is science. What do you think, Principal? It is science or religion? Does it mean that only the Hindus become old men and the Christians do not? Prof. Olivier: Yes... My problem as a simple layman is how to make God relevant to the issues of the day. But since God's relevancy can only be related to the permanent, the problem becomes even more complicated. But I have to deal with practical situations. Everybody in a university... Prabhupāda: This is practical situation, that... Prof. Olivier: Yes, I would agree. It is one of the neglected avenues of learning that we have not been able scientifically, I think... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my point. That is my point. Prof. Olivier: This is the point that he's trying to make, that we have not been able to absorb into scientific studies those spiritual components which go up to make the whole of man. And I would agree. I think it's one of the great shortcomings in our modern educational system, that we... Not that we do not accept this. I think basically, as an intrastructure, we accept this. But it's like a house. When you look at all the superstructures you do not inquire too deeply about the foundations of that superstructure. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much. (chuckles) Prof. Olivier: And now your point is that the time has come for society and the world to find out if there are cracks in the superstructure. Whether these cracks are just superficial cracks or whether they are caused by foundational cracks or shifts in the corners of the foundational structure. And I, like you, I believe that this is not entirely a question of... Well, it's certainly not a question of whether it's Hinduism or Christian or Islam. Prabhupāda: It is the foundation. *Prof. Olivier: It's the foundation. But we know so little about the foundation. When the rich man in the Bible asked the Lord to send this poor man down to warn his brothers, the Lord said they've had all the prophets all the years and they haven't listened. Any new evidence they will not accept either. I think that we have enough evidences around us. We need not seek more evidences, except I believe, through more direct contact with the workings of the holy spirit itself, which I think is available. But again, which I agree with you, I don't think we have exploited enough. You could use that word advisedly. Because the spirit is there. "It bloweth where it listeth." It is for us to get attuned to that spirit. And now the point is, that we are concerned with: Who is going to do this? There has just been written a book in England, which I haven't read, and I hope to order it, but I've only seen the advertisement, namely, The Biology of God, which takes into consideration the points that you have raised here. Of course, there are a lot of objections to this book, in principle. You know*-how can a man try to biologize God, to give Him a physical, scientific being in terms of modern life? But I think in the last book in the Old Testament, Malachi, there is a, when the Lord was complaining about all these people who bring blind animals as a sacrifice or lame animals or weak animals... The poorest in their flock they bring as sacrifices to the Lord. And He said, "It's not sacrifices that I want at all, if you bring this kind. It's obedience. It's truth. It's only truth that brings knowledge. It's truth that I want." But then He goes on to say you must... This is the challenge that you were referring to: how do we open more windows from God or from the spirit of God onto this present world today? Of course, the good Lord is still God. And He uses... [break] Professor: I include the transmigration of souls and I include everything else, religion and the lot. But when I speak about science in the English language sense, science in this sense, then I have a problem. *Prof. Olivier: Even the German word wissenschaft that we normally use, which covers, as you say, everything*-this is not translatable. The word science is... *Prabhupāda: But in Sanskrit there are two words, jñāna and vijñāna. Jñāna means theoretical knowledge, and vijñāna means practical knowledge. So vijñāna is taken as science. Just like you... Theoretically you know that two hydrogen*-oxygen mixed together becomes water. And when you do it practically in the laboratory, that is science, vijñāna. So jñāna-vijñāna-sahitam. In the Bhāgavata it is said, jñānaṁ me paramaṁ guhyaṁ yad-vijñāna-samanvitaḥ. Knowledge of God should be practical application in life. That is vijñānam. And according to our philosophy, unless one has got perfect knowledge of his self-identification, he remains an animal. Prof. Olivier: He is what? *Prabhupāda: He remains an animal. Just like a dog is thinking, "I am dog." So similarly, if I think, "I am Hindu," then what is the difference? Or if I am thinking, "I am this or that," with the bodily conception of life... Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. If one is thinking in terms of bodily conception-"I am this body"*-and based on this foundation, sva-dhī kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ, our family, society, national, so many things we are building up on this bodily conception of life... So, One, when he is on the platform of Brahman realization, then he becomes jubilant, prasannātmā, na śocati na kāṅkṣati. That life is required, Brahman realization. That is education. Prof. Olivier: But now do you not think that Christianity and Islam accept this as well? *Prabhupāda: I do not say which religion accepts and which religion does not, but unless one understands that he is not this body*-he is different from this body-his education is imperfect. Indian man (2): But do I mean that up till now your excellency were giving the question of transmigration, field of science, and now you are also taking that subject of God in this sphere of science? Prabhupāda: It is not God. God is far away. First of all I must know what I am. God is long, long distant. Indian man (2): But what should be the... Prabhupāda: First of all you understand what you are, whether you are this body or something other than the body. That is first. Indian man 2: Whether we are different or separate from God, or we are God. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That also dog can say, "I am also God." That is not very difficult thing. Indian man 2: Whether God says or not, it is the question between us, whether we are God... Prabhupāda: So, that bodily conception of life is dogism. Dog thinks, "I am dog." Cat thinks, "I am cat." Similarly, if I think "I am Hindu," "I am Christian," so what is the difference? Because you are giving some name of religion, therefore you are better than dog? Indian man (2): With due respect, I want to know the God knows that He is God and dog knows he is dog? (?) Prabhupāda: Why do you bring God? I am not talking of God. Indian man (2): Dog. Dog. Prabhupāda: I am talking of the soul. Indian man (2): Whether dog knows that he is dog? Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows the body-"I am dog." That's all. Indian man (2): Not about body. I am asking the question whether dog knows that he is dog. Cow knows that she is cow? Professor: Have they got the intelligence to know? Prabhupāda: Unless he knows that I am dog, why he is barking? (laughter) Indian man (2): Dog is barking, but does he possess discriminative knowledge? Prabhupāda: That you do not know. Because you are not dog, you cannot understand what dog is thinking. You cannot say what dog is thinking. You cannot say what dog is thinking because you are not dog. But you have to become dog. Then how dog is thinking... For the present time, as you do not know what is dog... Professor: If we don't start the lecture, we have the dog barking. (laughter) So we have to go for the lecture at 11 o'clock, unfortunately. Prabhupāda: What is that lecture? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The students have been invited to hear kīrtana and lecture, Prabhupāda, at another place. Prabhupāda: Kīrtana? Prof. Olivier: Might I just explain. I don't know whether we will have an audience. May I first of all say thank you very much for coming to the university. We are very honored also, sir, that you have been able to come, also that your guests have come, and that you have been able to come. Thank you very much for visiting the university. I unfortunately have a committee of my council meeting this afternoon, and the chairman is coming over shortly. So I will unfortunately not be able to attend your lecture. Thank you very much for coming. Some of you have been here before. We have this week a student break for a week before they start their examinations, so I do not know whether Professor Oosthuizen will have an audience at all. Maybe a few members of staff. Professor: I told Mr. Bhoola when he asked me about the lecture, I told him that this would be a problem. Prof. Olivier: Thank you very much for coming. Prabhupāda: If there is no audience, what is the use of holding class? Prof. Olivier: Well, Professor Oosthuizen here will take charge of you, but if there isn't an audience, I agree that one must be careful not to press too far. It may be more in the nature of a seminar. There might be people sitting around like this, and then there could be discussion. So that would depend on whether there is an audience. Students are funny people. They must be very strongly motivated before they will come away from their examination books at this time. Prabhupāda: So my time for taking bath is half past eleven. They can... You can stay. I can go. Prof. Olivier: So thank you very much. *Indian man (5): I want to say, professor, that on behalf of the Ārya*-paṭha-nīti-sabhā, I would like to request Professor Oosthuizen and to his department of Hindu Studies and Science of Religion to make it known to the students who are interested in the study of Hindu studies that at 21 Kalar Street we have this Vedic temple and that the Vedic temple is open. You can see and also participate in this service. Prof. Olivier: Thank you very much. Might I appropos of that just say here that we have here a department, Science of Religion. Then we have a department of Christian Theology. We have now started a department of Islamic Studies, which will concentrate more on the theological aspects as we go along. And then, if we can find the right guru, we can start a gurukula, a department of Hindu Studies or Hinduism. And Mr. Chotari and various other members of the local community here are assisting us to find the right spiritual leader. As far as Hindu studies are concerned, we give a course here in Sanskrit at the university. Prabhupāda: You have seen our books? *Prof. Olivier: I got a copy of the Bhagavad*-gītā at the last occassion when your representatives were here, which I thought was a very well brought out and a very well documented edition. The printing is also very good. So we are trying at this university to, slowly, to delve down into the infrastructure of education. Of course, one..., in the Western society one has got to take cognizance of so many developments in the various fields of science. And the element of spiritual science certainly has been neglected. I would concede this point immediately. That is perhaps where this university can also still play a meaningful part. Of course, here we have representatives of three of the world's greatest religions: Islam, Hinduism, and Christianity. This will be part of Professor Oosthuizen's department, to try and take the best out of these and formulate for our students, and maybe for the rest of South Africa and the world that will listen, the essences of religion that would really satisfy as we go along. *Prabhupāda: We say that religion means the law given by God. So any religion must accept God. Then there is no difference. The law may be little different according to time, circumstances. But religion means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means the law given by God. Just like law means the codes given by the state. That is law. Just like you are keeping, "Keep to the right" or "left" here. In America it is right. So somewhere, "Keep to the right," or somewhere, "Keep to the left," but because it is given by the state, it is law. Similarly, whatever law is given by God, that is religion. This is our definition of religion. Professor: I think we have to leave slowly. Thank you very much. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Please won't you all take some prasādam. Prof. Olivier: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: So I think I shall not be able to attend that class because I take my bath at half past eleven. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's okay, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I will go. These people will remain. Prof. Olivier: Have you transport? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. We'd like to show you some of the books and also... [break] Prof. Olivier: ...searching for truth. If it is not doing that it is no longer science. Prabhupāda: No longer science. Prof. Olivier: I think this is your point. We have neglected the science of the spirit. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Olivier: And this is what we have to rediscover and work at. Prabhupāda: Yes. That I want. Without science, simply sentiment will not help you. Prof. Olivier: That's right. Sentimentality... Prabhupāda: "I believe; you believe..." You may believe something, I may believe something, but everything should be on the scientific basis. That is wanted. So unless we understand this point, that "I am not this body; I am something else than the body," there is no question of spiritual education. Prof. Olivier: Then it becomes sentimentality. Prabhupāda: Sentimentality. Prof. Olivier: Love without honesty, without scientific honesty. Love without scientific honesty is sentimentality. Similarly, honesty without caring and love is cruelty. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Thank you very much. (end) Room Conversation with Bill Faill (reporter) -- October 8, 1975, Durban Faill: ...the Kṛṣṇa movement is about and its origins, its following. This sort of thing. *Prabhupāda: Where is Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa means God. The word Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. So unless one is all-attractive, he cannot be God. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness means God consciousness. Our position, we all living entities, we are all small particles, equal in quality with God-small, just like gold and a small particle of gold. Faill: The spark. *Prabhupāda: Spark. Yes. Fire, big fire and spark fire*-both of them fire, but one is big and one is very small. So our relationship with God is eternal. At the present moment, on account of contact with this material energy, we have forgotten our relationship with God. Therefore our life is problematic. We are facing so many problems. So again, if we revive our original consciousness, then we shall become happy. So this is the sum and substance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, the process how to revive our original consciousness. There are different processes, but at the present moment people are very, very fallen. This is called the age of Kali-means most fallen. Most fallen. The so-called material advancement is not the solution because God is eternal, we are eternal, and in the material condition we are changing our body. On account of our ignorance we are thinking "I am this body," but I am not this body. I am that spark, spirit, part and parcel of God. Faill: The body is just a vehicle. Prabhupāda: Yes, a covering. Vehicle also. Vehicle also. It is just like a machine. You go from one place to another on a motorcar machine. So this body is just like machine. On account of our material, conditional life we are thinking that "If I get this position, then I will be happy. If I get this position, I will be happy." We are creating mental concoction. But nothing will make us happy unless we come to our real position that "I am part and parcel of God. My business is to associate with God and help or cooperate with God." So that position we have to revive. And there are different types of vehicle, in the aquatic animals, then, I mean to say, plants. When the water is dried up, then vegetation comes. Then vegetation..., from vegetation, we... Trees and plants, they cannot move. Then we get little improvement; we can move, just like flies, insects, microbes, reptiles, and so many. So there are nine lakhs' forms of body within the water. Then two million types of bodies in vegetable, and then 1,100,000 species of life like microbes, germs, worms, insects. Then you come to the birds' life, three million different forms of. Then we come to beast life. That is also... Birds, I am sorry. Birds' life, one million, and then the beast life, three millions... Then we come to human form of body, and especially, gradually, we become civilized. So when we are civilized, then it is a chance to understand "what is God, what I am, what is our relationship." So if we don't take advantage of this civilized human life to understand God, and if we simply waste our life like cats and dogs, jumping and going here, then this is a great missing point. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people not to miss this opportunity. You take full advantage on this human form of life and try to understand God and your relationship with God. Faill: May I ask a few questions now? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Faill: Do we get a second chance if we don't make the most of this life? In other words, is reincarnation part of your... Prabhupāda: Yes. Second chance means you have to change your body. Now, according to your desire you get another body. That body is not guaranteed that you shall get a human body. It may be... Faill: If you've been bad enough, you might finish... *Prabhupāda: No, that... This I have already told you. There are 8,400,000 different forms of life. So you can enter any one of them according to your mental condition. We are under the control of the material nature. The material nature is being conducted in three modes: goodness, passion and ignorance. So just like three colors: yellow, red, and blue. Now you mix-three into three equal to nine, nine into nine equal to eighty-one. So these modes of material nature is being mixed up. Therefore there are so many varieties of life. So if we transcend this coloring platform of material nature, we come to the pure consciousness. Then we stop this repetition of birth and death in different forms of life. And if we do not that, then there is chance of going down or going up. There are different planets. If you cultivate the modes of goodness, then you are promoted to the higher planetary system, higher standard of life. And if you don't improve or don't go down, then you may remain in the present stage. But out of ignorance, if you still degrade, commit sinful activities, violate the laws of nature, then we go down again*-the animal life, the plants' life, like that. But again we have to evolve, evolutionary process, by nature's... So it may take many millions of years. So therefore a human being must be responsible that "I have got this opportunity to get out of this cycle of birth and death and different forms of life, and let me properly understand God and what is my relationship with God and act accordingly so that if we understand what is God, then we go back to home, back to Godhead." Faill: What can an ordinary man do? I mean the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement involves shaving the head and wearing the saffron robe. What can the man who is caught up in family life do? Prabhupāda: This saffron robe is not very essential, or cut the hair, but it creates some good situation, mental. You see? Just like a military man, when he is dressed properly he gets some energy to feel like a military man. But it does not mean that unless you are dressed, you cannot fight. It does not mean. So God consciousness can be revived in any condition, without any check. But these conditions are helpful, helpful. Therefore it is prescribed that "You live like this," "You dress like this," "You eat like this," "You do like this." These are convenient. These are convenient. So they are not essential. At the same time, if we take to these processes, then it will be helpful. Faill: Yes. One can be a student of Kṛṣṇa consciousness while going about a normal daily life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Faill: Do you think transcendental meditation is beginning to help... *Prabhupāda: They do not know what is meditation. They are... Simply it is a farce. That is another cheating process by the so*-called swamis and yogis. They do not know what is meditation. Do you know what is meditation? You are asking me the question, but do you know what is meditation? Faill: Just a stilling of the mind, trying to sit in the center without swimming either way. Prabhupāda: So what is that center? Faill: Oh, I don't know. Prabhupāda: Then? Why you are asking me? You do not know. So everyone does not know what is meditation, and they talk very much, "meditation." This is going on. These bluffers, they say "meditation," but what is the subject matter of meditation they do not know. Simply bogus propaganda. You see? Faill: Not even beginning to get people thinking right? *Prabhupāda: No. Meditation means this dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā, mind saturated with God consciousness and thinking of God. But if you do not know God, then where is the meditation? Faill: So it's a long... *Prabhupāda: No, it is very nice, but at the present moment in the name of meditation, simply cheating and bluffing going on. They do not know what is the subject matter of meditation. Besides that, in this age, mind is so agitated that you cannot concentrate. I have seen the so*-called meditation. They are regularly sleeping and snoring. They do not know. Yes. This is going on. So unfortunately, in the name of God consciousness or this self-realization, so many not standardized methods are being presented by the so-called bluffers without any reference to the authoritative books and knowledge, Vedic knowledge. It is another type of exploitation. Faill: What about some of the other schools that have grown up, people like Ouspensky and Gurdjieff and people who've brought a message similar to yours to the West in the past? *Prabhupāda: What we have to study particularly whether it is standard. Otherwise they may speak so many things, but if they do not know what is the standard... Just like medical science or any science, that is one. It cannot be different because it is spoken by different men. That is not one. That is not science. "Two plus two equal to four"*-this is a science that is true everywhere, not that because it is spoken by somebody else it becomes "two plus two equal to five" or "three." No. That is... Faill: No. Some other people, do you feel, possibly have had the truth as well, have they? Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to say. Faill: Yes. Unless you studied it in detail. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless I study, it is very difficult to say because there are so many bluffers, so many. Faill: Just doing it for money. *Prabhupāda: That's all. That's all. It is going on like that. They have no standard method. We are presenting the standard method. This is Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. As it is, without any malinterpretation, we are presenting as it is. This is standard. Faill: Yes. If you begin dressing things up, they change. And the size of the movement now? Is it a growing movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, it is very much growing. You will be surprised that we are selling these books... We have got about fifty books like this, and every library, college, professor, universities, they are very much appreciative of this, because there was no such literature existent. This is the new contribution to the world. Faill: Now, this American, Alpert, he came to a state of God consciousness, but he was very, very heavy on drugs. This can't be right, taking a drug. Prabhupāda: Alfred? Just speak. Harikeśa: He was one of the associates of Timothy Leary. Prabhupāda: Alfred Ford? Harikeśa: No, no, no. Prabhupāda: Then? Harikeśa: What is his first name? Faill: Alpert was his second name, and then he took on, you know, an Indian name. Prabhupāda: Oh, then he is speaking of Alfred Ford. Harikeśa: No, no, no. He is one of the people who were first into that LSD thing and then he took up meditation in India. Prabhupāda: Timothy? Harikeśa: Yes. Leary was his associate. And then this other man, he took up this meditation and started to become... Prabhupāda: That is also bogus. That is also bogus. Faill: I didn't like the idea of that. The book was very impressive, but I just thought, "This isn't right." You shouldn't have to lean on drugs. Prabhupāda: No. That is... Anything... If drugs can help God realization, the drug is better, I mean to say, more powerful than God. Faill: Which isn't... Prabhupāda: Then how we can accept that? Drug is a material thing, chemical composition, and how it can help one, God realization? That is not possible. This is a kind of intoxication and hallucination, but it is not God realization. Faill: Do you think that the great mystics down the ages have actually seen this spark? This is what... Prabhupāda: What do you mean by mystic? Faill: Well, there seem to be chaps who've had some very odd experience and always remembered it and found it very difficult to put it down in words. Prabhupāda: Mystic means something jugglery? What do you mean by mystic? Faill: Well, it's just the name they seem to give people who've had an experience of another level of reality. Prabhupāda: Yes. So yes, that... We don't say mystic. Our reality is God realization. There are different stages. I mean to say, direct perception, then receiving knowledge from authority, then personal experience between the two, then above that transcendental, and then, I mean to say, spiritual. In this way we have to go, step by step. We have to come to the point, to the spiritual platform. So, so long we are on the bodily concept of life, our understanding is sense gratification because body means the senses. And then, if we go still up, then we can see that mind is the center of sense activities. We take the mind as the final, and that is mental platform. Then, from mental platform, we come to the intellectual platform. Then, from intellectual platform, we come to the transcendental platform. Faill: To the trans... Prabhupāda: Transcendental platform. And from transcendental platform, we come to the spiritual platform. These are the stages. So in this age, because people are so fallen and in the śāstra a special recommendation that give the people directly spiritual platform... That direct spiritual platform is chanting of this holy name of God, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. So if we cultivate this practice on the spiritual platform, then immediately we realize our spiritual identity, and God, and it becomes very quickly successful. Faill: So in a sense, what a lot of people are saying today is that we must look inwards rather than outwards into the world of the senses. Prabhupāda: Yes. Inward means that you are spirit soul; you are not this body. But if you keep your bodily concept of life, then where is inward? It is outward only. Faill: It's just another way of looking out. *Prabhupāda: No. That means it is simply talking. It has no realization. Unless you understand that you are not this body*-you are spirit soul-there is no question of inward. That we have to study first of all, whether I am this body, or I am something within this body. That is inward. But that they do not understand. There is no education in the school, college or university. Everyone is thinking "I am this body." You see? Just like in this country, everywhere: "We are South African. They are Indian. They are this. They are this. They are this." So whole bodily concept, the whole world... "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am German." So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means it starts when one is above the bodily conception of life. Then the starting begins. Faill: So the recognition of the spark comes first. Prabhupāda: Ha. Recognition of the spirit soul within this body, that is first education. Unless one understands this simple fact, there is no question of spiritual advancement. Faill: Is it a question of just understanding it? Prabhupāda: Yes. For the time, in the beginning, first of all theoretical, theoretical. Faill: Intellectually accept it. Prabhupāda: Theoretical. That is a fact. Unless there are two department of knowledge, theoretical and practical... So first of all, one has to learn theoretical. That much knowledge one must have. Then, by practicing, working on that spiritual platform, he comes to the practical life. Faill: Am I keeping you too long now? Prabhupāda: No, you can go on. Faill: Do you think we're going to come right, then? Is that a possible question? Or is it just far too many people now who are purely in the body and in the world of the senses? Is the world going to come around? Prabhupāda: They are in darkness. Therefore this movement is very important to take the civilized man from the darkness because everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So long we are in this bodily conception of our life, we are no better than animal. The animal, they keep themselves always in bodily conception: "I am dog," "I am cat," "I am cow," "I am this." If we also keep in that platform, then where is the difference between dog and me? Faill: There is none then. Prabhupāda: The dog is barking. He is thinking, "I am dog. I am appointed here as watchman, watchdog, and as soon as somebody is passing, 'Yow! Gow! Gow!' " So, and similarly, if I keep myself in the dog mentality and act like that-"Why you have come to this country? Why you have come to my jurisdiction?" the same dog mentality. Faill: Is it vital to follow certain eating habits? I mean... *Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole process is how to purify ourself. So by... according to eating, the purification also... I think Mr. Bernard Shaw, he wrote one book that "You Are What You Eat." And that's a fact. We constitute our bodily atmosphere and mental atmosphere according to eating. So our Kṛṣṇa conscious movement recommends... Not the movement recommends. It is recommended in the śāstra that to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you eat the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. Just like opposite way: if a tuberculosis patient eats something and if you eat the remnants, then you will be infected with the tuberculosis bacillus. Is it not? So similarly, if you eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam, then you infect Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is our process. We don't take anything directly. We offer to Kṛṣṇa. Then we take kṛṣṇa-prasādam. That helps us. We do not take anything... We cannot take anything from the restaurant or from the shop. No. We prepare everything, offer to Kṛṣṇa. Then we take. Faill: You're all vegetarians, are you? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, because Kṛṣṇa is vegetarian. Kṛṣṇa says... Kṛṣṇa can eat anything because He is God, but He recommends, "Give Me vegetable." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. He never said, "You give Me meat or wine or this," no. Faill: Those are all out. They have to be. And tobacco is... Prabhupāda: Tobacco is also intoxication. We are already intoxicated in the bodily conception of life, and if we put more intoxication, then we are lost. Faill: You mean these things just reinforce body consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you want to be treated, then we have to follow the instruction of the physician. He says "Don't take this. Don't take that. You eat only this." So we have got such prescription. Faill: Well, I think I have got quite a lot down now. I'll have to go and work it out. Prabhupāda: Yes. Faill: I'll look up some reference books on the history of the movement and that sort of thing. Prabhupāda: History, it is not a new movement. You have seen this book. You read that book thoroughly. You will get full knowledge. This movement is very, very old and standard. It is never changed. As soon as you change it, then the potency of the movement is lost. Faill: Sorry, what was that? Prabhupāda: Potency. Just like electricity. There is standard regulation: "This is negative; this is positive. You must act like this. You must fix like..." You cannot do whimsically: "No, why not this way? Why not that way?" Then it is lost. Then there will be no electricity. Similarly, there is standard method how to understand this philosophy, how to get it, I mean to say, what is called, authoritatively. Then it will act. Faill: Then you could go to a book, read a book... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is the book of, what is called, guidance. If you follow the guide and do this according, then it will be effective. And if you don't follow the guide, you do in your whims... That is another dangerous disease of the modern man. Everyone wants to do according to his own whim. Nobody wants to follow any standard way. Therefore they are failure. Faill: I think that's fine. I'll just take that and do what I can with it. I've spoken to them, and they're quite happy if I can get a feature out of it. You wouldn't know what time the planes leave yet on Monday? Harikeśa: I can find out. Faill: I was thinking we might try and get a photographer out and get the group leaving, if that would be all right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That can be done. Faill: Have they modernized this at all, in that they've explained some of the... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. There it is very lucidly explained. Faill: May I have another one of them? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. You just read one big professor's remark here. You see? Faill: Yes. Prabhupāda: Professor Dimmock of Chicago University. Faill: "A new and living interpretation." This is you, is it? Prabhupāda: This is...? Yes. Faill: That's you. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you read these books and write regular articles on the basis of my talk with you, it will be actually great benefit to the public. Faill: Well, I'm about the only person in Durban, I think, who tries to write about this at all. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is the duty of the journalist to give real knowledge to the public. That is the duty of the journalist, not to give some hodgepodge idea without any effect. Faill: I can't be bothered with profit (indistinct). I do a weekly science column, but it's more mysticism than science. I try and cover everything. Anyway, I won't keep you any longer. Harikeśa: We're leaving at 9:45 A.M. on Tuesday. Faill: 9:45. Harikeśa: A.M. on Tuesday morning. Faill: That's fine. Well, I'll try and get a photographer out and just get the group with you when you're catching the plane. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Yes. Faill: The plane is at 9:45. Harikeśa: Yes. It's leaving at 9:45. Faill: You'll have to be there about 9:15, I think. Good. Well, thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Now, now... So we are leaving this place at nine? Harikeśa: No, no. We are leaving this place maybe nine o'clock. Prabhupāda: "Maybe." You do not know. But where they will come, here or in the...? Harikeśa: You mean you will meet at the airport? Faill: Oh, we'll meet you. We'll have somebody out at the airport. Prabhupāda: Then that's all right. So the airplane leaves this port at 9:45. So you can come, according to the time. Faill: Yes. You'll have to leave here about 8:30 actually. It's about three quarters of an hour's drive there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Faill: Good. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda. (end) Morning Walk -- October 9, 1975, Durban Prabhupāda: You were born here? Indian man: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Oh, where is your shoes? Indian man: Oh, I got it here. Prabhupāda: You are Gujarati? So you have been in India? [break] Indian man: ...my dad stopped... [break] ...Nairobi... [break] Indian parents are, they try to grab hold of you before you can go away. He thought that I won't come back or something. Prabhupāda: So he was right, your father. Indian man: He was right. Yes. Well, you see, I didn't want to come back and get married and all that, you see? And then he forced me to get married. Prabhupāda: Where you married? Here? Indian man: Here, Durban. Prabhupāda: You have got children? Indian man: Yes. Two boys. Prabhupāda: I was talking just now that the Indians here are better situated than in India. Indian man: Than in India. Correct. Prabhupāda: Gandhi started his movement here. He was failure. But in India it is supposed to be successful. But at the present moment, after independence, Indians are very horribly situated. Indian man: Very horribly situated. Prabhupāda: They have no food even. Indian man: Yeah. Is it because of the people? Prabhupāda: May be. What is the cause, I do not wish to discuss. But you are better off here. I see. Indian man: I was going to India for some knowledge, you see? You know, to the āśramas there. And I couldn't go, you see. Prabhupāda: How did you know that you'll get some knowledge there? Indian man: Well, I read a few books of the Divine Life Society, you know. And I wanted to go to Hrishikesh, you know. Prabhupāda: So what is that Divine Life Society? I want to know from you. What is that divinity? Whether it is nonsense or divinity? Indian man: Well, at that time I didn't know of anything else. This was in 1966. Prabhupāda: Then how you decided that it is divine life? Indian man: Well, you see, I read a few books by Swami Shivananda. Prabhupāda: So what is that book? Let me know. What does he say? Indian man: Well, he teaches you the basics, you know. Prabhupāda: What is that basics? Why don't you explain? Indian man: Well, actually, well, he's got a *Gītā* too, translated. Prabhupāda: So he has got everything. Why don't you explain what you have learned from it. Indian man: Well, he's given us... Prabhupāda: That means you have no idea what is divine life, and still, you are going to Divine Life Society. *Indian man: Well, he should teach... Well, the basics were no meat*-eating, no intoxicants, and also no gambling and no... Prabhupāda: They say? They have? They say so? They have restriction? Indian man: Well, no cheating, no gambling and no cheating. He's got restrictions of... Prabhupāda: Do you follow these restrictions? Indian man: Well, up to a certain extent I do. Prabhupāda: What is that extent? Indian man: Well, I don't eat meat, I don't gamble, I don't take any kind of intoxicants, but I drink tea, you know. Prabhupāda: So that divine life is generally for all the Hindus. That is custom. They may learn here something else, but generally, Hindus, they do not take meat. So, anything else? No. Simply this restriction. Indian man: Well, it's very similar to our movement, you know, the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: But Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is different in this sense, that we have got Kṛṣṇa. Do they have Kṛṣṇa? Indian man: Well, only thing I could tell you, they teach us to pray to Kālī, Durgā, Sarasvatī. Prabhupāda: Then? Then it is finished. Divine life is finished. Indian man: But, you see, at that time there was nothing else for us, Swamijī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: We had to follow something, and I didn't hear of you that time. This was in 1966, you know. It was quite a long time, and, well, I only came to... Prabhupāda: They are teaching like that. Indian man: There was only the Divine Life Society as far as I heard that time, you know. There was nobody else to follow, and our surrender was, surrendered ourselves to him, you see? *Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad*-gītā... You read Bhagavad-gītā? Indian man: Yes, I have read our... Prabhupāda: Do you know what Kṛṣṇa has said? Indian man: Well, surrender to Him alone. Prabhupāda: Yes. And this Kālī, Durgā, and other demigods' worshipers, they have been described as lost of intelligence. That means fools. Indian man: Fools. Those who worship them. Yes. But he also told us we must worship Kṛṣṇa too, you see. *Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa is to be worshiped*-He is the Supreme Lord. Indian man: Supreme Lord, yes. Prabhupāda: They are fishing? Indian man: Those people are surfing, you know? Surfboards. [break] Prabhupāda: ...center of Divine Life here? Indian man: Yes. It's in Reservoir Hills. Well, it's not far from place where we are living, Reservoir Hills. They've got a big āśrama there. They've got a resident swami there, Swami Sahajananda, and they've got a printing press and quarters, their living quarters and all, and they've got a few devotees living there. Prabhupāda: How many? Indian man: Well, they've got about four permanently living and then you get others coming during the day and helping the... Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, they have a very big printing press there. Prabhupāda: Printing press. Big... More than ours? Harikeśa: (laughter) Nobody has a press more than yours. Prabhupāda: You have seen our books? Indian man: Yes, I have seen the books. Prabhupāda: Have they books like that? Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Huh? So many books? Indian man: Well, he hasn't got a *Bhāgavatam*, but he's got a few books on Kṛṣṇa and the *Rāmāyaṇa*, a short *Rāmāyaṇa* actually. It's brief, you know, it's briefed. [break] I think very good sport, swimming? Prabhupāda: Why it is good? Indian man: Isn't it refreshing and...? *Prabhupāda: The fishes are swimming always, twenty*-four hours, they are swimming. So they must be well situated than yourself because... Indian man: They are swimming. *Prabhupāda: Man cannot swim twenty*-four hours, but they are swimming twenty-four hours. Indian man: Yes. [break] *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...holiday. Big beach day. Bhoga*-tyāga. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (laughs at something) Prabhupāda: Any woman surfing? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very, very few. Not so many. Prabhupāda: Not at all. I don't see any women. Harikeśa: They're not strong enough. Not strong enough. Prabhupāda: And still, they want equal right? [break] ...for jumping. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not today, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Prabhupāda: ...cannot move. "Big sea"? What is this? No, that's all right. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This boy, Prabhupāda, he bought one of your books in a store, Bhagavad*-gītā. While he was in the army he bought a book in a store, Bhagavad-gītā, and he read the book, and he came to the temple in Johannesburg and he practically joined immediately. Prabhupāda: What was... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He very much likes to read. Prabhupāda: Yesterday there was sale, some books? How many? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How many books were sold last night? Devotee (3): Not too many, ten, fifteen big books. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think because in Mobeni Heights, where we had the program, we've been there so many times practically everyone has all of your books. One night about two years ago we had a program there, and we sold six hundred dollars' worth of books in one evening. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They've taken your books in the past. [break] ...preaching, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we don't know whether to be diplomatic towards these other so*-called religious movements or whether to simply expose the philosophy which they are putting forward. Prabhupāda: No. You should be diplomatic. You should give positive information of our philosophy. Where need be, absolutely necessary, you can criticize others. [break] ...preaching is successful. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only because you've sent us here. Otherwise we would have never come to this place in a million years. I think in America the devotees think that Africa is simply a bunch of jungles. No one wants to come here to preach. Prabhupāda: [break]...very broad. [break] ...ask him about swimming, why they cannot swim all through like the fish. They are defeated. Indian man: They can't swim like the fish. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are defeated. Indian man: They have to put the skins on, I mean the rubber. Prabhupāda: That I am pointing out, that they are less efficient than the fish. Even a small fish, you will find, he is enjoying, but he cannot. So why they are proud of becoming more intelligent than the fishes? Where is that intelligence? Indian man: Uh huh. Well, I thought it was a good sport, you know, to swim. Prabhupāda: No, no. It may be good sport, but you cannot enjoy it. After some time you have to give it up. The fish does not. Therefore fish is more intelligent than this man. Indian man: On a rainy day is it possible to go swimming? On a rainy day... Some people say you mustn't go near water on a rainy day. Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not speaking in detail. But by practical experience we can see that these men are not as efficient as the small fish. That is my point. They have advanced in civilization, so many scientists' brain, but they are not enough intelligent more than the fish. That is my point. Am I right or wrong? Devotee (4): Right. Jaya. Prabhupāda: If swimming is enjoyable, then let them swim always. Why they cannot? Indian man: Actually, I go swimming... Prabhupāda: And the fishes are swimming always. So who is more intelligent, the fish or the man? Indian man: Well, summertime I go swimming always, you know. Prabhupāda: Don't speak about yourself. I am speaking generally. You may be very expert, but how long you will swim? How long you can swim? Indian man: Five minutes. Ten minutes. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. Finished your business. But the fishes are swimming twenty*-four hours. If we ask all these young men that "Who is expert? The fish or you are expert?" What will be the answer? Devotee (3): They'll say he is. He will say he is. Indian man: The fish is. The swimmer will say the fishes are expert. Prabhupāda: If he says that he is expert more than the fish, then he's a madman. So? Why he cannot become more expert than the fish? Indian man: Because he's not meant to swim all the... Prabhupāda: Then in which way he should be expert? He must show his expertness in a different way which the fish cannot. Indian man: I suppose, in the mind. Prabhupāda: Mind is working of the fish. He knows where is his enemy, where to go. They have got better mind. They can understand from two miles that some enemy is coming. They take care. Devotee (4): Fish. Prabhupāda: Yes. The mind is so strong. Every fish in the water, although they are expert, they are always in danger. They are always afraid of being eaten by bigger fish. Nūnaṁ mahatāṁ tatra. The world is that the stronger is exploiting the weaker. Nūnaṁ mahatāṁ tatra jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Still, they are expert. Indian man: Is it possible to visit other planets? Prabhupāda: You have to be expert. Not by this machine. Indian man: No. Astral traveling. Prabhupāda: You have to prepare yourself. Indian man: Prepare yourself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we had to prepare, to come to your country, visa and other things, not that all of a sudden I can come. Similarly, you have to prepare yourself to go to other planets. And because they are going whimsically, they are not successful. They have to come back, "Get down. Go back." Indian man: Well, Swamijī, if you want, you can answer this or not. Have you been to other planets? *Prabhupāda: I am on all planets. When I come to other country I see the same tree, the same road and the same sand. So what is the difference? I don't find any difference between India and this South Africa because the same trees are there, same grass is there, the same road is there, the same... So similarly, in every planet, without going we can understand, if we are sane men. We come here not to see how is South Africa. We have come here to preach Kṛṣṇa conscious.... That is our business. We don't come as a tourist to see how South Africa is. What South Africa? The same building, same road, same*-everything same. What to see here? Especially, they are also eating, sleeping and struggling. That's all. Indian man: That's a stink bug there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Is there any difference between Los Angeles, America or San Francisco and this city? Is there any difference? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: The same thing. Is there any place where people do not die? Then? Indian man: Besides maybe Kṛṣṇaloka also. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Within this material. Indian man: On earth, everywhere, everybody. Prabhupāda: Our real problem is to go there, where there is no death. That is real intelligence. And what is the use of going here and there where death is inevitable? Indian man: Now, in Brahmaloka there is also. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Brahmā also dies. Indian man: Brahmā also dies. [break] Prabhupāda: ...plants are within the sea? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Down? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Some plants live underneath the water. Prabhupāda: Yes. And why these rascals say there is no life? We see underneath the water there is life, and in the moon planet there is no life? We have to believe this? Indian man: So there is life on the moon, Swamijī? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: But can you see them? Do they have bodies? Prabhupāda: First of all you go there. Then see. I don't admit that they have gone to the moon planet. Indian man: You don't believe. Prabhupāda: It is 1,600,000 above the sun, the moon. Indian man: One million six hundred... Prabhupāda: Thousand miles above the sun. Indian man: Well, they say... Prabhupāda: They say. They're all fools. Indian man: Quarter million miles. Prabhupāda: We don't accept them. Indian man: 1,600,000. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Above the sun. Indian man: Above the sun. Prabhupāda: And how they will go? Indian man: And the sun is 96,000,000 miles away. Prabhupāda: Yes. That they cannot go there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: 93,000,000. *Indian man: Ninety*-three. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Jaya. [break] (in car:) ...ments are there in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam since the last five thousand years, and these people have become civilized for the last three hundred years, and we have to accept their statement or the statement which is made five thousand years at least? At least they discussed or they had some knowledge. You cannot deny that. They're giving description of all the planets, where it is situated. At least they had discussion. So they were uncivilized? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The moon that we see in the sky... Prabhupāda: The same moon. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That same moon. Prabhupāda: Yes. And there is fire, blazing fire, just like the sun. But it is surrounded by cool atmosphere. Therefore it is pleasing. Heat coming through cool atmosphere, it is pleasing. This is the statement. What do they know? They cannot explain why it is so brilliant. We explain, "There is firelike flames; therefore it is brilliant." They say that every planet looks like that. That's not a fact. Then all the planets together, why they cannot illuminate this earth at night? Only the moon is required. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they give the excuse that all the other stars are so far away that the light doesn't shine bright enough. Prabhupāda: There are no other, nearer planets? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. There are other planets like Venus and Mars, but they say these planets are much closer than the sun. Prabhupāda: That means... So why they do not look so bright? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Their philosophy is that the earth, Venus and Mars, these different planets, they don't give off any light. Prabhupāda: Then why do they say that all the planets look like moon? They say like that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think the moon is just reflecting light from the sun. *Prahupada: So why it is not reflecting to other planets, only to the moon? Why special advantage to the moon? They have no reason. All rascals' philosophy. Why particularly to the moon? Why not others? Simply theories and mental speculation. They have no scientific. And the śāstra definitely gives the distance of the moon from the sun planet-1,600,000 miles. Then similarly [sic:] 1,600 million up, the Mars, then Venus, then..., everything. And moon is specifically mentioned that "It is so brilliant because there is fire, blazing fire. And the blazing fire is so illuminating that even at night it looks white, bright." This is reasonable because... Not that it is being reflected by the sun. The sun can reflect other planets, but it is there, fire. Just like sun there is fire, similarly, moon there is fire. The sun is not covered by cool atmosphere, but the moon is covered by cool atmosphere. Therefore it is pleasing. When there is sunshine and breeze, it is very pleasing. And no sunshine, simply breezing*-it is not pleasing. And only sunshine, there is no cool atmo... That is also painful. But sunshine and breezing is very pleasing. So there is, like sunshine, blazing fire and surrounded by cool atmosphere. Therefore the moon is so pleasing. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a very reasonable argument, but how do we understand that the moon is 1,600,000 miles... Prabhupāda: It is stated in the Bhāgavata. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Does that mean that it's farther away from the earth than the... Does that mean that the earth is farther from the moon than from the sun? Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. Sun is in the center of the universe, and other planets there are above the sun and lower the sun. Sun is in the middle of the universe. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then the moon... *Prabhupāda: Everything is there. The whole, what is called, radius, no, diameter, from one point to another of the universe is given there. Pañcāśat*-koṭi-yojana. Pañcāśat means fifty, and koṭi means ten million. So fifty into ten million. Huh? 500,000,000. Pañcāśat-koṭi. And eight. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Four billion. Prabhupāda: Four billion miles, the area, this way and that way. So if the distance is so vast then one planet situated some millions of miles away, it is not extraordinary. The whole area is four billion. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But it appears at least for... It appears that the moon is so close. *Prabhupāda: "It appears"*-that is another thing. As soon as you say "appears," that means you have no knowledge. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But we say on the authenticity of the description in the Vedic literature. Therefore it is authentic. This proves that they did not go to the moon planet. If it is above, 1,600,000 above, then it is impossible. So this is bogus propaganda, they have gone to the moon. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's a very reasonable proposition because going to the moon, they simply come back with some rocks. Rocks they can get on the earth also. Prabhupāda: They are all nonsense. Some sand and some rocks, and we have to believe they have gone to. The fools may believe, but we cannot believe. We have got other information. Why shall I believe? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So all of the politicians are taking the money and they're saying that... Prabhupāda: That's all. That's all. Exploiting, that's all. This is their business. Just like Pakistan politicians, as soon as they cannot supply food, they declare war with India. The attention is diverted. Here also we have seen in the last war. When no man was joining, so in India, they created artificial famine. So for want of food they joined military. The government created a situation, purchased all the food grains and stocked. And when the price is very high the government opened controlled shop at high price. The people had no money; *therefore they were obliged to join military. These polit..., demons, they are so dangerous, simply to keep their position they are doing all nefarious activities. Simply there is... Because they don't believe in the next birth, they are not afraid of sinful activities. They can do anything, "Whatever I like. There is no... This life is finished." That is the whole philosophy of the modern educated man, "There is no life." Big, big professors, they say like that, "There is no life after death." Therefore the Ārya*-samājī rascal was: "That is Hindu belief." Why Hindu belief? Does the Mohammedan do not grow old? That answer he could not give. He is such a rascal. And at last he said that "I am God." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are dogmatic. Prabhupāda: Dogmatic, no. Why we should waste our time talking with such foolish men? "I don't believe." No, what... You believe or not believe; fact is fact. You are going to be old man. If you say "I don't believe," then is that a very good proposition? It does not depend on your believing or not believing. The nature's course will take place. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. That will go on. What is there in your believing and not believing? If you keep yourself in such darkness that "If you believe, then it is fact," then you are a fool, rascal. If you depend only on your belief, then you are a fool. What is the meaning of your belief? "I believe if I touch fire it will not burn." Will this belief protect me? You touch fire; it will burn. You believe or not believe. What is this argument, "We don't believe"? This is going on. If nature's law is that you must die, then if you believe, "No, I'll not die," will that belief protect you? You have to submit to the nature's law. Why don't you understand this? You are talking of "believe and not believe." Whole world is going on in this way: "We think," "I suppose," "Perhaps," "I believe," like this. Where is science? Science does not depend on your "belief, not belief, supposing, perhaps." This is not science. But they are going on like that. Whole Darwin's theory is based on this, "Maybe millions of years past..." We want perfect knowledge, not such, what is called, saṁśayam. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, asaṁśayaṁ, "without any doubt." That is knowledge. And samagram, "complete." So if we have got the chance of knowing complete, without any doubt, so why shall I go to you, rascal? Your knowledge is based on "perhaps, maybe." I will have to go somewhere to take knowledge, so why not go to Kṛṣṇa, where the knowledge is complete and without any doubt? Why shall I go to you, you rascal? You simply say "maybe, perhaps, I think." What is the use of this knowledge? We don't accept. You cannot say that "You are right; I am wrong" because you are also going to somebody to get knowledge, I am also going to somebody to get knowledge. So here it assured, that "complete knowledge without any doubt." But you have no such confidence. Am I right or not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The difficulty arises in... We say, well, you have to grow old. And then we say the moon is so high above the sun. So... Prabhupāda: So how can you deny it? First of all tell me. You have not gone there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I haven't gone, but the argument... Prabhupāda: No, no. The scientists. I challenge that he has not gone there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (to someone:) Pay your obeisances. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. I have not gone, you have not gone, but I have got this authentic literature; you have nothing. So my position is better than yours. You are fool. You are befooled because you are simply contemplating. But I have got a definite literature, information. So my position is better than yours. Whose car is it? Oh, some of them are chanting? Jaya. (end) Morning Walk -- October 10, 1975, Durban Prabhupāda: You are scientist? Ask them. Don't come here. What is the use of scientist? Hm? If they cannot stop. Not only stopping, if the sea likes, it can overflow the whole thing. Devotee: Haribol. Prahupada: It came up to here. Like this or... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. It is very bad weather last few days. A storm must be in the neighborhood. *Dhīrāṅga: There was one powerful king of England, he felt that just by his command he could hold back the tide. So he went and sat on the beach on his throne and he commanded the sea not to come in. But of course the sea came in and washed him away, he was very embarrassed. King Canute. He became so puffed*-up. Devotee: There's some steps here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It might be very soft. Prabhupāda: What is this adventure? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is an ice cream advertisement. [break] Very respected person. Unkulunkul means the most respected amongst all respected persons. This is how they address God. Prabhupāda: Ah. (end) Room Conversation with Professor Olivier -- October 10, 1975, Durban Prof. Olivier: Well, we didn't get the... We didn't get time to discuss some of the... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Olivier: ...the points that you raised, and I came in in the middle of a discourse. *Prabhupāda: I do not know who were those gentlemen. They are your teaching staff, that Mr. Chadda(?) and others? They were introduced as Ārya*-samājīs. They belong to the teaching staff, no? *Prof. Olivier: No. The Ārya*-patha-nidi-sabhā, which is an organization which was started about a hundred years ago by Swami Dayananda in India, with a motto of bhavantu viśvam āryam: "Let us make all men noble through search after truth," and that started in South Africa about fifty years ago. And one of the leading gentlemen in the organization today was the one sitting on the extreme left-hand side, Mr. Chautay. They are celebrating their fiftieth anniversary here in South Africa with a week's program, and they invited these two ācāryas over from India. One is from Delhi. I don't know where the other one is from. They invited them over to grace their celebrations. So they have been having a week of celebrations starting in the City Hall last Sunday. Prabhupāda: This Sunday? Prof. Olivier: The Sunday that's just passed, yes, they started there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Prof. Olivier: I have a program in the car. Perhaps I could give you the program and you could have a look. All kinds of interesting topics. Prabhupāda: For interesting topic, the gentleman, he was introducing himself, "I am God." So what topics we can have with them? (chuckles) Prof. Olivier: Yes. Prabhupāda: He said that "I am God." I do not know what kind of topics they are. Prof. Olivier: Well, the one was the regeneration of the Hindu spirit. I don't know what is meant by that. *Prabhupāda: They do not belong to the Hindu. They are described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Find out, veda-vāda-ratā pārtha nānyad astīti vādinaḥ. Prof. Olivier: I have read through the *Gītā*, of course, but you see... And I have thereafter referred to certain paragraphs. But it is a book of profound depth, and unless you spend a lot of time going into details, much of it gets lost. *Prabhupāda: You have got this? Veda*-vāda-ratāḥ? Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, here it is. Prabhupāda: Purport. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Purport: People in general are not very intelligent, and due to their ignorance they are most attached to the fruitive activities recommended in the karma*-kāṇḍa portion of the Vedas. They do not want anything more than sense gratificatory proposals for enjoying life in heaven, where wine and women are available and material opulence is very common. In the Vedas many sacrifices are recommended for elevation to the heavenly planets, especially the jyotiṣṭoma sacrifices. In fact, it is stated that anyone desiring elevation to heavenly planets must perform these sacrifices, and men with a poor fund of knowledge think that this is the whole purpose of Vedic wisdom. It is very difficult for such inexperienced persons to be situated in the determined action of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As fools are attached to the flowers of poisonous trees without knowing the results of such attractions, similarly unenlightened men are attracted by such heavenly opulence and the sense enjoyment thereof. In the karma-kāṇḍa section of the Vedas it is said that those who perform the four monthly penances become eligible to drink the somarasa beverages to become immortal and happy forever. Even on this earth some are very eager to have somarasa to become strong and fit to enjoy sense gratifications. Such persons have no faith in liberation from material bondage, and they are very much attached to the pompous ceremonies of Vedic sacrifices. They are generally sensual, and they do not want anything other than the heavenly pleasures of life. It is understood that there are gardens called nandana-kanana, in which there is good opportunity for association with angelic, beautiful women and having a profuse supply of somarasa wine. Such bodily happiness is certainly sensual. Therefore there are those who are purely attached to material temporary happiness as lords of the material world." Prof. Olivier: Well, so we are left in this twentieth century, this last part of the century, with a new global search for, or the truth of the spirit. We, of course, in the Western world are not familiar with the *Gītā* and so on. Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Olivier: But our problem is basically, I think, the one that you raised, was how do we make... How do we make a reality, a scientific reality? And I think you were quite right. I think people, very few people, get the point that you were trying to make there. *Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā, scientific reality. Therefore I raised that question. But nobody could reply properly. They thought it a kind of Hindu conception. No. That is not Hindu conception. That is the basic principle of living condition. We are changing body, and there are so many varieties of body. We may enter in any one of them after death. That is the real problem. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Nature's work is going on. This body is a machine. This machine, just like a car, has been offered to us by material nature, by the order of God, Kṛṣṇa. And we are moving, transmigration. So the real purpose of life is to stop this migration, transmigration, perpetually from one body to another, one body to another, and revive our original, spiritual position so that we can live eternally, blissful life of knowledge. That is the aim of life. The whole Vedic conception is based on this principle. Prof. Olivier: How do you...? This...your concept of reincarnation, how do you reconcile reincarnation with this attempt to... Prabhupāda: So long you'll have desire for material... Prof. Olivier: This is what is normally in the Hindu religion, you know, which it is not so, of course, in the Christian religion. *Prabhupāda: It is not the question of religion. This is the, I mean to say, our position, real position. Religion develops. Religion is a kind of faith. That develops according to time, circumstances, people. But reality is this, that we are spirit soul. We are now conditioned by the laws of material nature, and we are carried away by the laws of material nature and transmigrating from one body to another, sometimes happy, sometimes distressed, or sometimes heavenly planet, sometimes lower planet. This is going on. And human life is meant for stopping this process of transmigration and revive our original consciousness, and go back to home, back to Godhead, and live eternally, blissful life of knowledge. This is the whole scheme of Vedic literature. And Bhagavad*-gītā is the synopsis how to attain this life. Therefore, the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā begins to understand the constitutional position of the soul. Then other things. First of all we have to understand what we are, whether I am this body or something else. This is the first understanding. So I was trying to explain this, but that Mr. Chadda, he would bring that "You want to introduce Hindu conception." It is not Hindu conception. It is the scientific conception. I am a child for some time. Then I become a boy for some time. Then I become a young man, some time. Then I become old man. In this way I am changing body. This is not Hindu conception or Vedic conception. This is a fact. But he would not hear that. He would simply say, "You are trying to push Hindu conception of..." And what is this Hindu conception? It is equally applicable to everyone. Prof. Olivier: Hm, true. *Prabhupāda: Scientific basis. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Find out this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *"As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." Prabhupāda: Purport. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Purport: Since every living entity is an individual soul, each is changing his body every moment, manifesting sometimes as a child, sometimes as a youth, and sometimes as an old man. Yet the same spirit soul is there and does not undergo any change. This individual soul finally changes the body at death and transmigrates to another body; *and since it is sure to have another body in the next birth-either material or spiritual-there was no cause for lamentation by Arjuna on account of death, neither for Bhīṣma nor for Droṇa, for whom he was so much concerned. Rather, he should rejoice for their changing bodies from old to new ones, thereby rejuvenating their energy. Such changes of body account for varieties of enjoyment or suffering, according to one's work in life. So Bhīṣma and Droṇa, being noble souls, were surely going to have either spiritual bodies in the next life, or at least life in heavenly bodies for superior enjoyment of material existence. So in either case, there was no cause of lamentation. Any man who has perfect knowledge of the constitution of the individual soul, the Supersoul, and nature-both material and spiritual*-is called a dhīra or a most sober man. Such a man is never deluded by the change of bodies. The Māyāvādī theory of oneness of the spirit soul cannot be entertained on the ground that spirit soul cannot be cut into pieces as a fragmental portion. Such cutting into different individual souls would make the supreme cleavable or changeable, against the principle of the Supreme Soul being unchangeable. As confirmed in the Gītā, the fragmental portions of the Supreme exist eternally, sanātana, and are called kṣara; *that is, they have a tendency to fall down into material nature. These fragmental portions are eternally so, and even after liberation, the individual soul remains the same*-fragmental. But once liberated, he lives an eternal life in bliss and knowledge with the Personality of Godhead. The theory of reflection can be applied to the Supersoul, who is present in each and every individual body and is known as the Paramātmā, who is different from the individual living entity. When the sky is reflected in water, the reflections represent both the sun and the moon and the stars also. The stars can be compared to the living entities and the sun or the moon to the Supreme Lord. The individual fragmental spirit soul is represented by Arjuna, and the Supreme Soul is the Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. They are not on the same level, as it will be apparent in the beginning of the Fourth Chapter. If Arjuna is on the same level with Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is not superior to Arjuna, then their relationship of instructor and instructed becomes meaningless. If both of them are deluded by the illusory energy, māyā, then there is no need of one being the instructor and the other being the instructed. Such instruction would be useless because, in the clutches of māyā, no one can be an authoritative instructor. Under the circumstances, it is admitted that Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, superior in position to the living entity, Arjuna, who is a forgotten soul deluded by māyā." *Prabhupāda: So in the Bhagavad*-gītā, everything is explained very scientifically, not, I mean to say, a sentimental explanation, no. Logically, scientifically. Prof. Olivier: The problem as I see it, of course, is how to get modern man to make this study in depth that is contained or outlined in this book. Especially when you are caught up in an educational system that denies a place to this very concept or even the philosophy of it, it's... Prabhupāda: The modern education, they do not accept soul? Prof. Olivier: Part of it in theory perhaps, and at the junior stage. But as they...as we advance, there is either a complete neutrality or a...just a simple rejection of these truths. Prabhupāda: They do not accept soul. Prof. Olivier: They accept the soul, I think so, but they do not care to analyze what it means. Prabhupāda: Oh. And it is without analyzing this, what is the education? First of all this should be analyzed, what is the distinction between a dead body and a living body. That must be analyzed. Otherwise what is the education? We are dealing with this body. The body is always dead. Just like a motorcar with driver and without driver. The car is always a lump of matter. Similarly, this body, with the soul and without the soul, is a lump of matter. Therefore the... Prof. Olivier: Not worth very much. Prabhupāda: Eh? Prof. Olivier: Not worth very much. Prabhupāda: No. *Prof. Olivier: I think about...around fifty*-six cents or something. Somebody worked it out the other day. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But if one cannot distinguish between the car and the driver of the car, then he remains just like a child. A child may think that the car is running automatically, but that is foolishness. There is a driver. The child may not know, but when the child is grown*-up, educated, still he does not know, then what is the meaning of his education? *Prof. Olivier: Now, this is the whole range of education in, well, as far as I am aware, in the whole of the Western world, and it covers primary and secondary and tertiary education. There is no place for an in*-depth study of...well, of the soul and of the... Prabhupāda: I talked with one big professor in Moscow. Perhaps you may know him. His name is Professor Kotovsky. He is the leader of Indology in Moscow. So I had a talk with him for about an hour. That talk was published in some paper. He says, "Swamiji, after this body is annihilated, everything is finished." So I was surprised. And he is holding a very responsible post, Indology, and known to be very good scholar. He was good scholar, but he also does not know. Prof. Olivier: Well, we have started a course, or we have a course here at our own university in Indology. Prabhupāda: Here? *Prof. Olivier: Yeah. It is a scholar from Vienna that we have got to teach this course for us. But what he teaches and what kind of basic philosophy, I wouldn't know. There are about thirty or forty students. So in essence, they ought to start by making at least a detailed study, as I see it, of the Bhagavad*-gītā as a basis for their whole philosophy. *Prabhupāda: So why not appoint somebody to teach Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is? That is essential. And we have got step by step, so many books, fifty books, simply to understand God. Prof. Olivier: Uh huh. You mean from the beginning right through the... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You can make them pass the entrance examination, the graduate examination, the postgraduate examination by studying these books. Yes. Prof. Olivier: Well, this is apparently what one needs. This is perhaps what one needs, you know. Prabhupāda: And our books are being appreciated, Europe, America, by big, big professors, universities. They are giving us standing order, even in Oxford University. What is that, Oxford University? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I was just in London a while back. Prabhupāda: No, that letter is there? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know if I have the one from Oxford. This is from Harvard. We just received this telegram from Los Angeles, Prabhupāda. "Amazing success from your library party*-one hundred and fifty-two standing orders sold in just seventeen days of September in New England. Thirteen standing orders at Harvard. These books are very much being appreciated in America." Prof. Olivier: These are for the sets. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, a standing order of books even which haven't been published yet. Prabhupāda is translating on his dictaphone each night, throughout the hours of the night. And now about fifty books so far, many more to come. Prabhupāda: The total number of books will be about eighty. Out of that, we have published about fifty. So the balance they are giving standing order, "As soon as published, you give..." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the United States... These are many letters we have, just some of them, from different professors who are actually using Prabhupāda's books, professors from respectable universities such as Harvard, Yale, Duke. Professor Dimmock, who is the leading scholar of southeastern languages at the University of Chicago, he very much appreciates Prabhupāda's books. Prabhupāda: He has written one foreword. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So these books are being accepted as the authority, at least in America and England, so far as studies of Indian culture are concerned, philosophy, sociology. And you can see the beautiful presentation. Each Sanskrit is there, transliteration so that anyone can chant, word*-for-word Sanskrit to English translation, translation in English, and then the purport, a commentary. Prof. Olivier: That's right. This is a good edition. Good edition. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Professor Dimmock, he says that there are many, many translations of Bhagavad*-gītā, and he says that "By bringing us a new and living interpretation of a text already known to many, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda has increased our understanding manyfold." So although it's been prevalent in America... I know that when I was studying Humanities in college in the University of Florida, Bhagavad-gītā was required. And we read one edition, but it was very much limited. Until we come in contact with Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, the understanding is very much limited. But it's not a sectarian approach. It's purely scientific and realistic. There are many such reviews. Prof. Olivier: Well, this is a good letter. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of our different books, just offhand. These are some of the colleges as of several months ago who placed standing orders for our books. Now, the professors, as we go from college to college in America, in the universities, they are using our books as textbooks, standard textbooks. They are seeing that the cost of the book is not the real criterion. The criterion is the quality of the teaching. Someone may be attracted by the cover... (break) ...transliteration is pronounced, different words, glossary for words which may not be so well understood by the neophyte, references. And for the different pictures, plate numbers and explanation. It's a complete edition. Nothing has ever been seen like this in the Western world. So there's great authority behind it. Prof. Olivier: Yeah. This... Our university has almost an obligation to make a study in depth of all of these points. *Prabhupāda: And after studying Bhagavad*-gītā thoroughly, then begins further, higher study-Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the same principles. Show. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same format is used. There is color illustrations, introduction, and Sanskrit transliteration, word for word. Prof. Olivier: Now, would this be... Would this be a... Where would this come in, a book like this, in the study course? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is the postgraduate study of Bhagavad*-gītā, yes. The Bhagavad-gītā teaches the general... *Prabhupāda: No, Bhagavad*-gītā is entrance, and then this is graduate. And Caitanya-caritāmṛta postgraduate. Prof. Olivier: Our great problem is at the undergraduate level. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Well, there is the *Nectar of Devotion* and the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Nectar of Devotion and the Śrī Īśopaniṣad. These books are actually being used in undergraduate courses. These are some of the recommendations, see, offered as an undergraduate course. Mostly... This book is very, very interesting, this, "the complete science of bhakti*-yoga." This explains scientifically the science of devotional service to God. That devotional service which is not practiced with reference to the Vedic literatures is simply a disturbance, just as if some chemist walked into an English laboratory or some foreign language laboratory and tried to do something, and he had no knowledge. So the same way, we should try to understand the science of devotional service from the authorities, so that it's not just...it doesn't become simply a disturbance in society. People lose faith in God that way. Śrī Īśopaniṣad also has the same format once again. The Sanskrit, transliteration, word for word. This is a very nice entrance book into Vedic understanding. This is the most important of the Upaniṣads. Many other books we have like that, paperbacks and hardbound. This is being used in many universities in America. Prabhupāda: Temple University, it is a study book. Prof. Olivier: Temple University? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. In Philadelphia. Prof. Olivier: Yes, I have been there. There is an Islamic professor there, Professor of Islamics, Farooki. He was also here at the university lecturing in Islam. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is University of Minnesota. This is a book review of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. He says, "I know of no better introduction to the vast literature of kṛṣṇa-bhakti than Swami Bhaktivedanta's paraphrase of Canto Ten of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Purāṇa. Translators inevitably have to commute between felicity and fidelity. In this edition, Bhaktivedanta resolves the dilemma by presenting a purport of each chapter which is both readable and substantial." No one can argue with the authority of these literatures, it's a fact, because Śrīla Prabhupāda has not manufactured anything from his own mind. It's simply being presented, the Vedic literatures, as they are, in such a way that we in the Western countries, we can understand very clearly without any hesitation what is being said in each verse and each chapter. In other words, Prabhupāda is not presenting in order to confuse or to juggle words, but to actually give people understanding. That is why it's been accepted so readily. We have many such literatures. Prof. Olivier: Yes, it's... That other letter you showed me, the first one, is a... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's from Utaḥ State University. Prof. Olivier: Yeah, sociology. It's a good letter. It would be a good letter to have a copy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I can make copies of some of these letters and bring them by. Will you be in your office on Monday? Prof. Olivier: I have a meeting in the morning, but my secretary... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I can leave it there. And all of these books are readily available here in stock. Prof. Olivier: Are they? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We have thousands and thousands of books here in South Africa. Prof. Olivier: In South Africa? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Very, very reasonable prices. Prabhupāda: Your Sanskrit professor, he has seen? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The Sanskrit professor has noted that he would like to take the whole set of books. Prof. Olivier: What's his name, this professor, Zanenberg?(?) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of the devotees spoke to him, but he wanted that I should go back and see him. Prabhupāda: Where he is? Call him, that devotee who saw him. Prof. Olivier: Was this an Indian gentleman or... Bhargava: Yes, it was an Indian gentleman. I saw him, but I didn't speak to him. Prof. Olivier: Which professor? Bhargava: I don't know his name. Prof. Olivier: Probably Mishra? Bhargava: I don't know his name. I saw he was an Indian gentleman. Prof. Olivier: Yes. We want to... I mean, I can do very little at the university. My attempts have been to try and stress that the only...the only permanent element in education is the spiritual, and how to effect this... Prabhupāda: These are the books. That is a fact. So you saw the Sanskrit professor there? Devotee: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What is his name? Devotee: He's not a professor. He's a lecturer. Prof. Olivier: Mr. Mishra? Devotee: (?) Prof. Olivier: Mishra. Devotee: Mishra. He's a lecturer. He has this special class. Prof. Olivier: That's right, yes. He does Sanskrit for us. He's from Mauritius. Devotee: And he was interested in getting a whole standing order of books. And I said I could supply the books, but it will be a while before we got every single one from America, including the Bengali books, etc. We have to order them specially because South Africa doesn't have a good communication with America as far as transporting large quantities... Prabhupāda: No, we shall supply from here. You haven't got to bother. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We have good stock now. We have in stock over a thousand of all these books. Devotee: We've sold so many that we have to reorder. It won't be much problem getting by air freight. We just put them on the plane and we get them here quickly. Prabhupāda: We shall take responsibility for supplying the books from here, in this center. Prof. Olivier: But now, what must you...what can you do if your, one of the professor who is in charge of Indology, like the one in Moscow, he teaches Indology but he does not believe the basis of what... Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Prof. Olivier: What must you do then? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Therefore in America many of our students, they are teaching courses at the university. I for one, I have a B.Sc. in chemistry. I'm actually a graduate in chemistry. I had a four*-year scholarship to medical school and some of the other devotees are also graduates, and they are actually teaching in the universities. Prabhupāda: If you want some of our student to teach, he can do that. Prof. Olivier: I think one must make a start somewhere, either by getting specialist lectures or lecturers at least to start. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We could always assist in some way in an objective presentation so that the students don't feel that they're being biased in any way. This is the idea of science. Let them draw their own conclusions. Just simply present the facts and let them come to their own conclusion. The main idea, though, is the authenticity. There's no use in studying something if it's simply mental speculation, which, of course, the Vedic scriptures mean that. They've been passed down for so many thousands of years intact, and the most important thing is to get a chance to read the originals in our own language, English, or Afrikaans, whatever it may be. We're also translating into Afrikaans the Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Prof. Olivier: Is that so? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Some of the girls are very, very proficient and they're doing this now, and we hope that within a year or so's time we'll have a polished copy to print. We're working in this direction. Prof. Olivier: I see. Prabhupāda: If this line of activity is taken seriously, sometimes I may come and teach them. Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is a very nice opportunity because you have all Indian students and they are eager, eager to know. They want to know. And they want to... Prabhupāda: And they should be helped to... Prof. Olivier: They should be helped, yes. They should be helped. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the purpose of education. Prof. Olivier: Apart from anything else, our Indian, our Hindu community here in South Africa seems to be very loose from any fixed idea of what constitutes Hinduism. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Olivier: And especially the young people, they are therefore living in a complete vacuum. For various reasons they do not want to accept...and I come back to the word religion again because this is what they have about, or see around them. They cannot identify themselves with the Christian religion. They cannot identify themselves with the Islamic religion. They are largely ignorant. Prabhupāda: So they should be shown the right path. Prof. Olivier: They should be. Prabhupāda: This is the right path, original, authentic. Prof. Olivier: There were not very many great scholars in South Africa amongst our Indian community, you know. They came out by and large as workers on the sugar plantations. A few were Christian missionaries, a few were jewelers and tailors and so on. And then for the last hundred years they were occupied in resisting... Prabhupāda: Political struggle. Prof. Olivier: Political struggles or resisting this transportation back to India, and they were fighting to make a living, you know, finding their own place in the country. And it's only, as I see that in the future as I've been telling them that we are privileged to have them here in this country with this background, and they mustn't cut themselves away from it and drift in a vacuum. They must give meaning to the essence of their own beliefs and faith. But they do not know to whom to turn. Prabhupāda: So this is the opportunity. Prof. Olivier: You see, now, they turn...the senior ones turn perhaps to the ācāryas that you saw there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The youth are not attracted... Prof. Olivier: They're not... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...because they don't have the answers. The youth want to know exactly. In other words, if a youth asks a question and you can't answer it, he doesn't want to hear from you anymore. But we can answer all questions on the basis of these literatures without any tinge of mental speculation. Scientific, that's a fact. Prof. Olivier: Then basically they and myself and others want to know how do we get this spirit into our own hearts and how does this then issue out into everyday living. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is all explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, how to live peacefully in this world and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the whole thing is explained very nicely. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's not that everyone will become a monk. Prabhupāda: No, no. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not everyone will become a jeweler or a teacher. But all different occupations must be there in society. Simply they have to somehow or another become God*-centered. Prof. Olivier: Yeah. Well, this is the point, you see. Man only lives because God allows him to live. God has given him breath to live, and he's got to breathe God and speak God and live God now. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Prof. Olivier: How to get him to voluntarily make this experiment, because this is what you were saying. Any scientific development rests on experimentation. The challenge to experiment... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Olivier: ...is there. God does not deny anybody the privilege of experimenting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Olivier: And especially the youth at university, as I have always indicated and I tell them every year that they've got to experiment with the spirit to the same extent that they experiment in their laboratories with pieces of animal tissues or grass or what it is that they've got to analyze. But the real tragedy is that we have wandered away so far from the spirit and from the spiritual laboratory... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Olivier: ...that we don't know where to start. I was telling them the other day that when the Americans sent their first man to the moon, they had a laboratory of about four thousand men at the controls. The one was doing this and the other one was doing that, but this was a huge human laboratory. That is only while they experiment, and then by that... [break] Prabhupāda: He is my student. He practices like him. Prof. Olivier: Yeah, but now would he have what is normally in the Western world called a theological degree? Prabhupāda: He has...theological degree, he has studied all these books. This is theological. But there is no such thing at the present moment. Prof. Olivier: Yeah. I can see your problem. But now our problem on this side is, of course, that you... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just as in America, I remember at the university... Prabhupāda: No, you can give an experiment. We don't charge anything. You see how he teaches. Then if you like, you can appoint. Prof. Olivier: He would have to be acceptable to the Hindu community because it would be for them only, not for the Christians or for the Muslims. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, the Hindu community accepts our movement. Every program we have, we have at least...we've seen at City Hall we had full house, last night (?) full house, and they very much appreciate our movement in particular. They come to us with many questions. So any representative of our movement is pure in his activities and his understanding of the philosophy is comprehensive, so they have no objection. But they see practically that the big men in the Hindu community here, in Johannesburg and Durban... Prabhupāda: You can ask the Hindu community. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They will testify to our character. They accept. They accept. Prof. Olivier: You see, the...South Africa has had to import its priests, its Hindu priests. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even the young girls who join our movement, they cover their heads. And the Hindu ladies are so impressed that they practice such chastity, even to the extent always covering their head as a sign of chastity. They very much appreciate. Prof. Olivier: Perhaps I can give you one or a couple of application forms that you could post to one or two people if they're interested to apply. But this would be... Prabhupāda: The Hindu community, I think they will accept us. I don't think they will deny. Prof. Olivier: But this would be a wonderful opportunity to bring the essence of Hinduism because from what I gather here from what you have said, this is not only the essence of religion from here but it is also the essence of Hinduism. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The essence of Hinduism is Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Prof. Olivier: Yeah. Therefore, one would like to see that the foundation of any course which is given here in Hinduism is a pure foundation, unadulterated. Therefore, based on the *Gītā* and the Upanisads and the Veda, all the Vedic literature, because that's all that's available. But the trouble is, you see, as it is, whether it is Christianity or whether it is...I don't want to speak about Islam because I don't know enough about them, but there is always the danger that you will get intellectual expositions... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, this is the idea of presenting... Prof. Olivier: ...without the faith. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...presenting as it is. In other words, let them draw their own conclusions. In other words, it's not simply that you're trying to flatter some people that they know so much if they don't know. You're trying to educate, which means uplift. So simply we present the principles that are here and let the people become elevated, educated. Prof. Olivier: Well, are your book lists in here? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Olivier: And you've got another copy of this? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, you can keep this. Prabhupāda: You can take. Prof. Olivier: Are the prices in here? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, the prices... Prabhupāda: No, price is there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I can give you... Prabhupāda: No, no, price is there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The American prices. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Price is there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of them are here. Prof. Olivier: In case we want to order them for our... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So you can order here. You can get it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of these books we have available at this point. Prof. Olivier: These are introductory? *Prabhupāda: Yes. I think in the beginning Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Prof. Olivier: Well, thank you very much, sir... Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Olivier: ...for sacrificing the afternoon for me like this, and God bless. Prabhupāda: Thank you, yes, for your...(chuckles)...thank you. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So shall I come by your office Monday with some copies and then (?). I myself, I have to go with Srila Prabhupada to Johannesburg on Tuesday morning, and right after the programs there are finished I'll come back to Durban and pursue this further with you. Prof. Olivier: Yeah, let's see what we can...we can discuss. Thank you very much. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Thank you very kindly. Thank you for coming. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Olivier: Now, you mustn't take so many (?) that it will make one egoistic. Good night. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (?) You know, we have our Back to Godhead magazine published (?) copies per month. Prof. Olivier: What do you call it? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Back to Godhead. Prof. Olivier: I see. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Back to Godhead. (voices fade as they walk away down hallway) Devotee: He was a nice man. Prabhupāda: Very nice man. Therefore, I called. (end) Morning Walk -- October 12, 1975, Durban *Indian man (1): ...regarding this Candi*-pat. *Prabhupāda: Candi*-pat means you, if you properly read, you get some material profit. That's all. No spiritual profit. Indian man (1): There is no special significance in it? *Prabhupāda: Yes. You get material profit. [break] Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, (sic:) alpavat tu phalaṁ teṣām: "The result of material profit is for a short duration of time," tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām, "and these things are desired by less intelligent class of men." His real need is how to gain his spiritual life. That is his real need. But he does not want that. He wants some material profit for the time being. This is less intelligent. Suppose if somebody gives you some money and he says, "Tomorrow I shall take it away," will you... (laughs) So tad bhavaty alpa-medhasā. [break] ...kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajanty anya-devatāḥ: [Bg. 7.20] "They worship demigods, bewildered by lusty desires." And so long we have got lusty desires, we have to change our body, and that we do not know, what kind of body we are going to get next birth. Therefore, without knowing this, if we become mad after material profit, then less intelligent. Indian man (1): Yogendra(?), you wanted to ask Swamiji a question? Indian man (2): If we become completely Kṛṣṇa conscious... Prabhupāda: Hm? Indian man (2): If we follow the Kṛṣṇa conscious path... Now, take for example our wedding ceremonies. Now, the first thing that we take, the Ganapati, there is Ganasyainava(?), and there is various other deities that we have to respect. Now, what happens in his case? Prabhupāda: If you are actually Kṛṣṇa conscious, then to worship Ganapati, there is no harm. But if you take Ganapati as independent God, then your Kṛṣṇa consciousness is hampered. Indian man (2): But in certain ceremonies these things are... Prabhupāda: Any ceremony. If you know the constable is constable and the president is president, then it is all right. But if you think constable is president, then you are misguided. Woman: (Hindi exchange with Prabhupāda and other Indians) Indian man (3): [break] ...this country, what do you think is the best way of establishing the āśrama, or the centers, and which way we can help in this matter? Prabhupāda: We have got so many āśramas. You can see how we are doing. We have got hundred and two temples all over the world. You come to India? Indian man (3): Yes, I have been to India. Prabhupāda: So this time you come and see our temple in Vṛndāvana. We have got, India, four, five temples. We have got in London, New York. In London we have got two temples, big, big. One is very big. In New York we have got, Los Angeles. Everywhere we have got. Here also, yesterday's paper, there was some advertisement, one Mr. Desai. Indian man (3): Jayanti Desai, yes. Yes, he wants to give some charities. Prabhupāda: So why not give us? Then we can make a nice... Indian man (3): I think we could... [break] ...him and see what they are asking for applications from various charitable organizations. Prabhupāda: So I have come temporarily. Why don't you approach? Indian man (3): Yes, we will... Prabhupāda: If he is known to you, you can approach, that "Here is a good cause, International..." Indian man (3): I will send a message to him to come and see you this evening. Prabhupāda: Ah, that will be very nice. Then I can talk. Yes. When you will bring him? Indian man (3): I think you are meeting the officials of various organizations this evening? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They've been invited. Prabhupāda: Oh, the organizations. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Different organizations in Durban. Six p.m. Indian man (3): Six p.m. Yes. I will send a message to him today. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also Dr. Desai, his brother. Indian man (3): Yes. Dr. Desai has been very helpful in establishing societies and schools and charitable organizations. Yes, I will also send a message to Dr. Desai to come and see you. Dr. Desai sacrificed all his medical practice and all for the people. Prabhupāda: Ah. Indian man (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: (wind blowing) Pranair arthair dhiya vacaḥ śreya acaraṇam... [break] ...by words, by intelligence, everyone should serve Kṛṣṇa, then life is successful. Pranair arthair dhiya vacaḥ. Indian man (1): What of meetings, religious meetings, especially here in South Africa? Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian man (1): In South Africa here especially, number of religious meetings, they start off with the Gāyatrī mantra three times, and at the end of the meeting they have a ṣantipat. Now is there any real necessity for a religious meeting to start off with the Gāyatrī mantra and end with santipat? Prabhupāda: Yes, that's not bad. Indian man (1): But I don't see that being practiced in the... *Prabhupāda: We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That includes everything. It is called mahā*-mantra. It includes all mantras. Gāyatrī mantra is not to be chanted in the public loudly. That is not the system. Indian man (1): Not to be chanted. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the public loudly. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in this country we have to do army training, and on a Sunday we have to attend a church service. We have to attend it. Is it all right to say that we won't attend it because we follow Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or must we go anyway? It's sort of a Christian denomination service on a Sunday. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. Those who are doing nothing, for them to attend the church at least for one hour, that is better than... Something is better than nothing, you see. That is good. People have completely forgotten God. They are doomed. So better to remember at least for some time. That is good. Indian man (3): We would like you to stay more longer in this country. Prabhupāda: Hm? Indian man (3): We would like to request you to stay more longer in this country. Prabhupāda: So if you start a good center I will stay and see that things are going on. (aside:) Just take this stick. Indian man (3): Then I could... I think we would be able to benefit from you much more. See, your arrival in this period in Durban, with so many functions that we are carrying on today in this whole week, that people were sort of distributed and quite a lot of them were unable to even come to your meetings. Prabhupāda: Oh. No, our meetings were well attended. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We have had full house all the time. Indian man (3): Yes, I know your house, but you could have had even more than full house. Indian man (1): There are about four hundred thousand Indians alone here. Indian man (3): Yes. The reason of that Navaratri festival, these Ārya samājīs they have had, well in advance. They had their celebrations and all, so a lot of people were unable to come. Do you think it will be possible for you to come back to Durban from Johannesburg, after your Johannesburg stay? Prabhupāda: Yes. I can come back. There is no harm. [break] Indian man (3): And when you have these āśramas and all, and how to serve the poor people in the way of welfare? Prabhupāda: Give them prasāda. Give them prasāda. We are giving two thousand, three thousand men each center, prasādam. Indian man (3): And also to rehabilitate them. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have giving them shelter also, food, cloth, everything, giving them proper chance to live peacefully and be God conscious. Indian man (3): And in the way of hospitals? *Prabhupāda: Hospitals, there are many, but real hospitals... to cure the material disease, there is no hospital. They are... There are hundreds and thousands of hospitals for curing the disease of the body, but there is no hospital to cure the disease of the soul. That is the defect. So we are opening hospital for curing the disease of the soul. They have no information about the soul throughout the whole world. Even so-called religious organizations, they have no information about the soul. They go to religious ceremonies for material profit. They do not know what is the necessity of the soul and what is the disease of the soul. They do not know. [break] ...nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. What is the goal of life, these people, they do not know, mūḍhas. Mūḍha means rascals, gadha. They do not know what is the goal of life. They take calculation of the duration of life, that fifty, sixty, or hundred years. That's all. Beyond this, after this, they do not know. Yes. That is the defect. [break] Now, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that this temporary attempt to become happy-antavanta phalaṁ teṣām*-it will end with the end of the body. But they do not know beyond this. Therefore alpam-medhasām, they are less intelligent. Just like a child playing. He likes to play and does not go to school. So do you think that is all right? Indian man (3): No. Prabhupāda: So therefore we are doing like that. We are concerned that "I have got this body. Let me enjoy to the fullest extent and don't mind what I am going to have in future. It doesn't matter." Indian man (3): You get attracted by a lot of side attractions. Prabhupāda: Yes. And the education is so defective that even university students, if I say that "You are going to be a dog," they say, "What is the harm if I become?" They say like that. The education is so defective, they don't mind to become a dog. They think, "It is a facility to become a dog because I can have sex on the street without any restrictions." *Indian man (3): Yes. I mean they have lost their self*-respect for that. Prabhupāda: No consideration. They are actually like cats and dogs. This is going on. [break] Nobody knows what is soul; nobody knows what is the goal of life; *nobody knows what is the necessity of the soul. These things are not discussed, neither they know it. So*-called religious institution or so-called..., they do not know. It is only mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, and that... They do not take care of this Bhagavad-gītā. They manufacture their own ways of... *Indian man (3): Is there any other books before Bhagavad*-gītā? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Vedas there are. Yes. But what is the purpose of Veda? The purpose of Veda is to understand God. If you do not understand God... Just like the Ārya*-samājīs. They are concerned with Vedas, they say. But they do not know what is God. They say, "I am God." This is their knowledge. If he is God, who is going to worship him? Nobody comes to kick on his face, and still, he says, "I am God." This is going on. How you become God? Who worships you? But still, he will say, "I am God." You see. Such foolishness is going on. Ārya. Ārya means advanced, and this is their advancement. Ārya means advanced, and this is their advancement that they think, "I am God." Just see. Everyone can think like that. Then what is the use of advancement? This is going on. [break]...sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ. Veda means knowledge. So the ultimate knowledge is to know God. But if you do not know God, then what is the value of your knowledge? Indian man (3): Quite right. Prabhupāda: If you say like a rascal that "I am God," is that knowledge? Indian man (3): It's no knowledge at all. Prabhupāda: Huh? Still they claim they are advanced Aryans. Indian lady: And Vallabhācārya? Prabhupāda: Vallabhācārya, he was a Vaiṣṇava. He worships Kṛṣṇa, Bal Kṛṣṇa. That's all right. Indian lady: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Indian man: (Indian man asks Prabhupāda if he speaks Gujarati in Gujarati or Hindi) Prabhupāda: Na Gujarati, ne. Hindi I can. [break] ...the four sampradāyas: Rāmānuja, Madhvācārya, then Viṣṇu Svāmī. Vallabhācārya belongs to the Viṣṇu Svāmī group, and we belong to Madhvācārya, so there is no difference. Indian man (3): She's a very staunch believer in Vallabhācārya and Puti Mahārāja(?). Prabhupāda: Yes. Mostly Gujaratis are Vallabhācārya follower. I know that. That is good. So you are worshiping Bal Kṛṣṇa? Indian man (3): Bal Kṛṣṇa, yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. (Hindi) ...there one opinion of the Vallabhācārya sampradāya... (end) Car ride from Durban to Johannesburg -- October 13, 1975, Durban Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa (in car): But still they come? Prabhupāda: Yes, out of curiosity only, not to accept your proposition. "What this Swamiji is speaking?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you asked them, "So why don't you surrender? What is your objection?" Prabhupāda: Objection is that they will not be allowed to drink tea. That is objection. No cigarette, no even tea. They think it is impossible. All, they are Indian house. Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They live? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some live upstairs here. But all of these people who are living in this area have to move out. Prabhupāda: And business? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Businesses, for now they can stay. They try to push them out, though, all the time. [break] *Prabhupāda: Sahajananda has written very frankly that "All the swamis and yogis are deriding Kṛṣṇa. You are the only person pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world, single*-handedly." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's a fact. *Prabhupāda: He has very much appreciated this effort. Everyone will do that. I am the single man, speaking of God. Nobody speaks. All big, big leaders, politicians, philoso..., who is speaking of God? We are stressing only, God consciousness. As soon as you speak of God, "Oh, it is old*-fashioned to bring in God. These are primitive. Now we speak of science. There is no God. That is very nice." As soon as you speak of God, "Oh, you are useless. You have no advanced knowledge." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are challenging, then, the authority. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are challenging the authority. Prabhupāda: There is no authority. And Vivekananda said, "You manufacture your own God, whomever you like. Even you can worship stool as God." They say like that. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But now the Indian government-if this is true*-they are giving visas to the devotees, and that means they are favorable towards the movement more and more. Prabhupāda: Yes. It may be due to my interview with Indira Gandhi. I appealed to her that "No Indians are joining, and these Europeans, Americans, they are helping me. And if they are asked to go away, then how shall I maintain the establishment? Indians are not coming." So they might have studied that "They are not politician, and this movement... Everyone will appreciate God consciousness. They are doing something," this consideration. Otherwise it is surprising. They have given three years. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It is very surprising. Prabhupāda: It is very, very surprising. [break] Harikeśa: There may be some more information to come about that. Prabhupāda: What is that other? Harikeśa: I don't know, but... Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: Navayogendra is not the official source. Prabhupāda: Navayogendra, yes, why Navayogendra has said? Harikeśa: I think he wants to remind you of... Prabhupāda: Yes. Because it is coming from Navayogendra it is not to be relied so much. (laughs) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There should be mail there. There should be some more information, for sure. But then sometimes I think it's simply Kṛṣṇa's grace. Prabhupāda: Yes, by Kṛṣṇa's grace... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Here in South Africa is very, very conservative government, and we've been allowed to do practically everything. Simply Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Yogamāyā allows our saṅkīrtana activities to go on. Prabhupāda: Anyone who will read our books, he will come to senses. These are all Indian quarters? [break] ...haven't got any good temple till now. [break] ...Africans, they do not live either with Indians or Europeans. They live separately. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Live separately. But usually every Indian or European has one or two Africans living behind the house as servants, so there are many living in the cities. We have one African girl in Johannesburg. She works at the temple. We've called her Pārijāta. We have one African girl because when we first came there were only a few of us and we didn't want to take up time to clean up the temple for our preaching work. So she has to get up very early in the morning. Prabhupāda: She was paid for that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it facilitated our preaching work. At first, I was against the idea, but I found it was good. Prabhupāda: No, it was not good to give, keep young unmarried girl. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: She is married with children. She is older. Her husband was murdered. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, in Johannesburg. We didn't pick any young African girl, older lady and very respectful, honest. She's about fifty years old. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Her husband was walking home one day, and African killed him. Prabhupāda: Why? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just for money. (end) Room Conversation -- October 14, 1975, Johannesburg Prabhupāda: Nothing happens accidentally. According to Vedic literature, there is no such word as "accident." The word is adṛṣṭa: There is cause; I cannot see it. Adṛṣṭa. It is not in my vision, but there is cause. There is no question of accident. Harikeśa: What about when somebody is born with three arms or eight toes? Prabhupāda: There is karma, cause, but I cannot ascertain. To me the cause is invisible. Therefore, we take adṛṣṭa. But there is cause. Harikeśa: They always reason that because somebody is born like that, that sometimes somebody could be born from an ape like a man. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: Over a very long period of time... Let's say in one ape somebody was born without hair, and then after a long period of time in the same line from that person who was born without hair... Prabhupāda: But why the ape does not give birth now? Harikeśa: But we have not seen all the apes. Prabhupāda: But how do you suggest? Harikeśa: It's just a theory. Prabhupāda: Then you'll... Then what you have not seen, how you can suggest? What is not in your experience, how you can suggest? Then anyone will suggest any nonsense, and we will have to accept? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So that is the rascaldom. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. How you can suggest? Harikeśa: Even he says it was just a theory. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But now, Prabhupāda, they say that they have been to the moon, and we're saying that the moon is so far away. And they have their pictures also to prove it. Prabhupāda: Picture you can manufacture here. Harikeśa: And they have earth dust as if it came from the moon. Prabhupāda: And the other scientist says this kind dust can be had here. So what is the proof they went there? It can be collected here. Harikeśa: And their dust does not reflect. They say the moon is reflective, but the dust and the pictures, it was all dark gray. No reflection. Prabhupāda: So therefore if I say that they did not go to the moon, how they can support? Harikeśa: They cannot prove. They are so clever and sophisticated with their nonsense, they can even make the astronauts believe... Prabhupāda: Therefore I asked you to ask them, "Why Sunday first and Monday next?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's very conceivable that they could have tricked everyone. They simply have a video. They go up in a space ship around. They simply show a film from the space ship back to the earth, how they were practicing in the Arizona desert and they collected some rocks and took it with them. It's very easy. Harikeśa: Sanka dāsa, you know, in Bombay? He was in the CIA. And they..., when he was in Vietnam, they knocked him out one day and they brought him to a dentist and they took out three of his teeth, and they put in these little transistors. And these little transistors were connected to his brain. And they would talk to him and make him do things by speaking into these transistors into his brain. And if he ever said anything wrong..., like he was not supposed to reveal secrets. And if he ever revealed a secret, they would try to kill him by making a signal go to his brain, and they can explode his brain. So conceivably they can trick the astronauts completely like that by putting things and making them think like they went to the moon. Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara dāsa? Harikeśa: Yes. He was saying... And when he got out of the Army he had so much pain in his teeth he went to a dentist, and he took out all of his teeth. That's why he has no teeth, because all of his teeth had these little things inside them. And one... Prabhupāda: He is in Bombay now? Harikeśa: Yes, he's the gardener, you know, the one who gives you the flower every morning. Prabhupāda: So he was troubled. Harikeśa: Oh, yes. He had very much trouble because of it. Prabhupāda: So he has got artificial teeth? No. Harikeśa: No. Now he has no teeth. He's getting some teeth. They're making some. The dentist is working free in Bombay. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The CIA, they're going to build a television set in his mouth. (laughing) Harikeśa: They do that with all their men, he said. They put things in the mouth so that they can control the people. And they listen to what they say because they can also hear anything he says. So somebody is listening all the time to all their special agents under the ground. They never come out of the ground. They stay under the ground all the time, and they listen to all the secret agents and all the conversations. And they control them. They speak things to them, tell them what to eat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Demoniac. Harikeśa: He says they even control the president that way. They can even make the president go crazy or kill him if he ever becomes a traitor or something like that. Prabhupāda: Dangerous, huh? That is CIA? The CIA is maintained by government? Harikeśa: Oh, yes. That's why everybody is very afraid. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes they think that the government is maintained by the CIA. (laughing) *Harikeśa: The CIA even has laser beam guns where they can shoot somebody with this laser beam gun and they disintegrate completely, like they never existed. They shoot light out of a gun and it just goes*-tssh-completely finished. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Photo? Prabhupāda: Gram. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Photogram. Photogram. Harikeśa: That's out here? Prabhupāda: We saw one advertisement. So we are remaining these three, four only? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's three of us. We're flying, and then Rūpa and Gokulendra will drive the gray car back to Johannesburg. One devotee will drive to the airport, Vapu. Harikeśa: I'm almost finished. Prabhupāda: They are making so many wonderful things, but they cannot stop death. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They just make it quicker. *Prabhupāda: After all, they are going to die. In Bengal it is said the topmost ill*-naming, what is that? Ill-naming? Harikeśa: Defamy? Prabhupāda: Defamy. Gali. Just like I say, "You rascal fool, you...," so many things. I rebuke. What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Defamy. *Prabhupāda: Defamy. So the last defamy is that you die. I say, "You are rascal. You are fool. You are this, and that." This is all not so dangerous. But if I say that "You die," that is the last defamy. So in spite of all their clever invention, they are going to die. Then what is the value? That you cannot check. "I have done wonderful things"*-that's all right, invention, so many things. That's all right. "But what about my death?" Have you done anything that you can save yourself? You, Mr. Darwin, you have so experience. Millions of millions of years you have got. Why don't you stop your death? You cannot live more than a hundred years, and you are talking of millions of years. What is this nonsense? You stop your death, live for millions of years and see things. So where is that power? Then what is your value? You live for fifty years, sixty years, or utmost, hundred years, and you talk of millions of years? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually our theory, even taken as a theory, that the soul is there and enters the body, and when the soul leaves, the body is finished, it's very palatable, very palatable. Very few people argue with it. It's simply that they've been miseducated. Therefore they are cheated. They accept. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difficulty, that, wholesale people have been miseducated. That is our protest. And this miseducated is ruling the whole world, all rascals [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...cheated in some business transaction, they become very mad, angry, so much so sometimes they want to kill the opposing party. But when they are cheated in this way they don't mind so much, because their sense gratification, either way, is there. So only people who are serious about understanding the truth will accept these things. *Prabhupāda: We therefore submit our statement as it is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā. You cannot say that we are cheating, because we are presenting something authorized, which is accepted. That's all. So we are not cheater. You may accept or not accept; that is your business. But we are presenting something standard. That's all. Harikeśa: And it works. *Prabhupāda: Works or not works... Suppose it does not work, but still, it is standard. You cannot deny it. Bhagavad*-gītā is read all over the world. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even the scientists are not in agreement over Darwin's theory. Harikeśa: Actually that's why they say we are dogmatic, because it never changes. It doesn't develop. Prabhupāda: How it can change? If it is correct, how it can be changed? Harikeśa: They have no experience of anything... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have no experience of any truth which lasts. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. Harikeśa: So they say we are dogmatic. *Prabhupāda: It is not dogmatic. When I say, "Next February will be very nice season," it is not dogmatic. It is by experience. Last February or many other Februarys I have experienced. Therefore I say, "Next February will be like this." That is not cheating, neither dogmatic. That is experience. That example I gave many times, that a child asks from the father, "Father, what is this?" The father says, "My dear son, it is microphone. If you speak, it will be recorded." So I take it from my father this is microphone. So I may be child, but when I say, "It is microphone," that is correct because I have taken from the authority. If a child is asked, "What is this? Do you know?" if I say, "Yes, it is microphone," that is correct. And if he, the man, says, "How do you know it is microphone?" "My father said." Then he is correct. I may be disqualified as a child, but because I have taken the words from my qualified father, it is correct. That is our process. I don't claim that I am very big man, but we repeat only what we have heard from Kṛṣṇa. That's all. You may accept it, not accept. That is your business. Therefore I named it Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are speaking simply what Kṛṣṇa has said, and we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. This is our business. Now, in the market so many things are being sold, not that everything has got all customers. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness may not be accepted by all. That is the case in everything. But what we are presenting, that is standard. We are not cheating. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Na danam na janam na sundarim. We are not simply looking for followers. Prabhupāda: Neither we are after false followers. If you agree, then you come. If you agree-"No illicit sex, no... Yes..." Why? There is no "Why?" You have to accept it. Then you come to me. That's all. If you like, you come; *if you don't like, go away. I don't care for you. This is our policy. There is no "why?" You may say, "dogmatic," but it is not dogmatic but it is standard from Bhagavad*-gītā, from Vedic literatures. Striya-suna-pana-dyuta yatra papas catur-vidhāh: [SB 1.17.38] "Wherever there are these four kinds of sinful activities, oh, that is very dangerous place." So we have taken it. [break] Now everyone, when there are so many cars... I saw one advertisement, Ford car, that "Bring all '79 cars and compare. Ours is the best." You cannot condemn him. It is advertisement. "Bring all '79 cars, others, and compare with our car." You can have your consent. That is not cheating. So we say like that, that "Bring all knowledge and compare with Bhagavad-gita's knowledge." Now it is up to you if you accept this or don't accept it. That is not cheating. But these rascals, they are simply placing some bogus theory without any authorized statement: "All of a sudden monkey once gave birth." And where is that authority? Harikeśa: Monkey? Prabhupāda: "Monkey gave birth to man, all of a sudden, millions of years..." Now, what is the support of your statement? Then anyone can say anything and it becomes science. You have no support. You are the first man. You are saying like this, nonsense. Where is your support? You are support of your statement? Then everyone will say, "I have got some statement, and I support. I am the support." Harikeśa: That's what they do. Prabhupāda: That is... Harikeśa: That's how you become a big scientist. (end) Room Conversation -- October 15, 1975, Johannesburg Prabhupāda: ...is generated from dog originally. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The disease? *Prabhupāda: Syphilis. In Ayur*-Vedic it is called phairanga, means this disease is imported from Western countries. Every dog has syphilis, and they contaminate the woman, and that is distributed to man. According to Vedic civilization, dog is untouchable. Now in India also, to keep a dog is aristocracy. Yes. Especially the tail cut. Now half-cut tail, that is aristocratic dog. Now they are making dog show in New Delhi. [break] Adjust. Kleṣada asa deha. Material body means different ways of giving trouble. I have got one trouble. He has got one trouble. He has got another trouble. He has got another. But nobody is coming to the senses that it is troublesome. And troublesome, at the same time you'll not be allowed to continue. It has to be ended. Then another change of body, and what kind of body you are going to get? That you do not know. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Western countries, people are taught that if there is some difficulty they should not try to accept it. They should try to change the situation. Prabhupāda: But you cannot change. What is the answer for that? Nobody has been able to change the situation. Who has been able to change the situation? Apart from birth and death, where is the change of situation that there is no more disease? So advanced in science... So why the change of situation is not there? Why people are suffering? You are creating hospital. That's all right. But where is the process that no more disease? Where is the change of situation? That is called punaḥ punaś carvita carvaṇānam [SB 7.5.30], chewing the chewed. They cannot change the situation and trying again and again, hope against hope. This is their foolishness. Nobody is able to change the situation. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā dura... [Bg. 7.14]. That is not possible, but they will not take it. "Yes, we are trying. Yes, we are trying." Dog's obstinacy. What you are trying? In the history there is no such instance that you have been able to change. It is not possible. Harikeśa: Well, now medical science is so advanced that even if you have heart disease they can give you another heart. *Prabhupāda: So does it mean that the situation is changed? No more heart disease or heart is never failure? It will continue? Where is the change. You may be proud with your puffed*-up, false knowledge, but where is the change of situation? Futile attempt. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they will say that the duration of life years ago was much shorter than it is now, that now the duration of life is sixty*-five or seventy years average. Prabhupāda: That may be in few cases. Generally the duration of life is reduced. Nobody lives nowadays like his forefather. So where is extension? It is reduced. And what is the extension? In old age the body becomes subjected to so many ailments. What is the use of living with ailments, with toothache and many other things? What is the use of such life? Better die young, in good health, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the use of prolonged life? The prolonged life... The trees are also prolonged life. Does it mean it is happy? They live for five hundred years, five thousand years. Hundred, two hundred years' living for tree is not at all difficult. But they live for thousands of years. So is it very pleasing to live like a tree for many thousands of years? Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. *Prabhupāda: Then why do they propose, "Prolong life"? What is the use of such prolonged life, stand up in a place without any power to move an inch and suffer all climatic disturbances? Is that very good life? Everyone is... Even if he lives for more years, the bodily, mental and external sufferings will be there. What is the use of living such prolonged life? Prolonged life, does it guarantee that these three kinds of miseries*-bodily, mental and external, natural; *there are so many disturbances*-he will be free from all these disturbances? Simply dog's obstinacy, that's all. Harikeśa: There's a Greek fable about that. There's a Greek fable that this one lady got some benediction that she would live forever, except she forgot to ask for eternal youth. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: She forgot to ask to always be young. So she was very, very old and decrepit, and finally they just put her in a jar, and some young boys were playing with the jar and they asked, "What do you want?" And she said, "I want to die." Prabhupāda: Yes. When one suffers too much he commits suicide. Life becomes very troublesome. When the suffering is too much acute, they commit suicide. So that is not a solution, we have prolonged li... First of all there is no prolonged. Even accepting it is prolonged, what is the benefit? Harikeśa: Actually, even if they didn't do anything, they would live the same amount. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is destined to live for a certain period. You cannot prolong it, neither reduce it. Harikeśa: What about all the sufferings of the body? Let's say one has a toothache or something like that. Prabhupāda: No. That I have already said, that as soon as you accept this material body, you must suffer. That is the way. Harikeśa: So if you fix one thing, another thing will just go bad? Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot fix anything. You can simply think that "I am now fixed up." That is not possible. Even if you fix up one type of suffering, another type of suffering will come. So suffering must be there. The body means suffering. One should understand this, that asann api kleṣada asa dehaḥ [SB 5.5.4]. Na sādhu manye yato ātmano 'yam asannapi kleṣada asa dehaḥ. You are trying to adjust things, threefold miserable condition, but you should understand that as soon as you get this material body, it will be suffering only. Therefore whole Vedic civilization is a culture how to stop this material body. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they are also trying. The Buddhists, they are also trying. But they are thinking that "There is no soul. Finish this body." This is Buddhist theory. But they know that this is suffering. Similarly, the Māyāvādī, they also know this body is suffering, so they want to come out of the body and merge into the existence of God. The senses are already there, either Buddhist or Māyāvādī. And Vaiṣṇava philosophy is "Not only come out of this miserable condition of life, but enter into Kṛṣṇa's family and live peacefully." But so far the body is bad, it is accepted by all philosophies. Any kind of Indian philosophy, they will accept that body is bad. Harikeśa: The Mormons think they go to heaven in the same body. Prabhupāda: Rascals. Except in India, there is no philosophy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. There is no knowledge. Prabhupāda: There is no knowledge. They are all in darkness. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, para, paropakara. These all rascals, they are in darkness. No knowledge. Don't you see? If they had any knowledge, how they are taking care of an ugly, diseased dog and killing their own child? Is that any knowledge? To maintain child is botheration, to kill. And to maintain three dozen dogs, all ugly and diseased, they are very much enthusiastic. Just see. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because the dog will listen to them, but the children will not. Prabhupāda: Not listen to them. Harikeśa: Dog is man's best friend. Prabhupāda: Yes, doglike man's. We don't keep dog. But we don't hate dog also. Let them keep their own position. In India still, they keep dog, but dog is not allowed to enter the room. No, outside. They are trained up in that way. When food is to be given, they will call, "Come on," and he will take food from outside and go away, always remain outside. Dog is never allowed to enter room or in the house. Outside compound, that's all. Still. No dog is allowed to enter the room and jump over the body of the master and sit down with the seat. No. What is that? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These are marigolds. In the summertime, each one of these little seedlings, we transplant them. They give many, many nice yellow flowers with fragrance. We make garlands for Gaura*-Nitai. Devotee (1): It was in the paper that one lady left four million dollars to her dogs, to dogs in general, to help dogs. Last week, Roosevelt family. Prabhupāda: Yes. Four million dollars. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...also a Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. Prabhupāda: And the slaughterhouse? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't care about slaughterhouse. Prabhupāda: This is their civilization. "Killing is not cruelty." Harikeśa: They don't do it cruelly. They do it very quickly. Prabhupāda: Will you be ready to be killed if I say that "I shall kill you quickly. You will not understand that..."? Will you be ready? Harikeśa: No. *Devotee (2): That so*-called society also puts many animals to sleep, so-called sleep. They inject them to sleep. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Dogs. Devotee (2): Dogs. They have too many. *Prabhupāda: Animal worship. Yes. The worshiping tendency is there, so if they have no information of God*-worshiping, they must worship dog. One must worship, but if they have no chance to worship God, they must worship dog. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They can't stop the worshiping tendency. Prabhupāda: No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So why, in the material world, if our natural desire is to worship and to be a servant, why is it that in the material world everyone is looking for respect and to be worshiped? Prabhupāda: That is māyā. He is serving a dog, and still, he is thinking he is master. That is māyā. Instead of serving a nice person or the nice Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, he is serving a dog. But he is thinking that "I am master." This is māyā. māyā means which is not fact. He is serving, but he is thinking that he is not serving, he is controlling, or something like that. That is māyā. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the desire to be worshiped is unnatural. Prabhupāda: Yes. (to someone entering:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come on. Jaya. This is the beginning of devotion, to be submissive. Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. This is the beginning, praṇipāta. This is praṇipāta, fall down, full surrender. That you have... Therefore you are making progress. Tad viddhi praṇipātena. Question? Praṇipātena paripraśnena. Praṇipāta is done. Now you can question. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Do you have any question? Indian: I can't think of one now. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said he can't think of one right now. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Last night you were present in the meeting? Read our books very carefully, and as soon as there is some doubt, inquire. Here wooden house, practically none. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mostly bricks. *Prabhupāda: Hm. That's good. Wooden house*-matchbox. So there is no, I mean to say, fire brigade disturbance. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there is fire. Yesterday, few weeks ago, across the street in the field there was a bush fire. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But in your country, always fire brigade: "Dung, dung, dung, dung, dung, tunga, tunga, tunga, gara gara gara..." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there is always fires in America. Prabhupāda: Because all wooden house. Harikeśa: That's become a sport in the cities, to set fire. That's a new sport in the cities for the children. They set fires to big buildings. (end) Morning Walk -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg Prabhupāda: Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are trying to become happy by material adjustment. This will never be successful. So what is their answer? Harikeśa: They might point out how successful they have been in the past. Prabhupāda: What successful? *Harikeśa: Now we have these big, beautiful houses. If it's too hot we air*-condition it. Prabhupāda: You have to be... You will be kicked out from the house. You will not be allowed to stay here. What is this success? You will be kicked out. What is your success? You have constructed very nice house. Very good. All credit to you. But I shall kick you out. What you will do? Where is your success? Hm? It is waste of time. That is sane man's intelligence. "If I am going to be kicked out, why shall I spoil my energy in this way?" This is intelligence. But they have no intelligence even. Harikeśa: But that's just a fatalistic attitude. *Prabhupāda: Why fatalistic? It is practical. You want to live, you want to enjoy this nice house, but you are not allowed. Why don't you talk practically? That is your foolishness, that you will not be allowed*-that's a fact-but still, you are spoiling your energy. That is foolishness. Harikeśa: Well, it's not exactly spoiling. We are really enjoying. Prabhupāda: What enjoying? Harikeśa: When it's too hot we can make it cooler. When it's too cool we can make it hotter. Prabhupāda: But at the same time, you want to live and enjoy. That is not allowed. Everyone wants to live and enjoy. Hm? Otherwise why, when there is attack outside, why do you fight? The tendency is that "I shall live comfortably." Why these white Europeans have made so high plan? So that they may not be kicked out by the Africans. That is the tendency. Therefore they are making secure, Africans far away so that they may not come. You want to live securely, but that is not there. You may make political arrangement very secure, but what is the nature's arrangement? You'll be kicked out at any moment. There is no certainty. There is no guarantee even that you will be allowed to live for so many years. At any moment. Harikeśa: But if we're always thinking of death, how can we enjoy life now? Prabhupāda: But death is sure. If you are not thinking, then you are a rascal. That is the point. (laughs) Death is sure. And if you are not thinking, then you are a rascal. That is the proof. Suppose I am sitting here, we are walking here, and some danger is coming. It will immediately kill. So shall I remain here very peacefully? First of all make insurance, just like they make insurance, that no death will come. Your scientific advancement, your so many advancement, make it sure that you will not die. You will live here comfortably forever. Then you make your house nice, decorate it very... Where is that arrangement? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if death is sure in any case... If death is sure in any case, for the thinking man or for the nonthinking man, then why think about it? Prabhupāda: No, non... For thinking men, for them there is no death; there is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference between thinking men and nonthinking men. We are preparing for going... [break] There is... Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. That is intelligence. Now, suppose that here is open field. There is... We are walking very nicely. And the downtown, congested city, that is not very nice. So at least, if I don't spoil my energy to make the place uncomfortable, if I save my energy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in this open field, that is intelligence or that is intelligent? Which is intelligent? We are also going to die. That's all right. But we are going to die like intelligent person, not like cats and dogs. That is the difference. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is, though, that everyone has to work because they have to feed themselves and they have to... Prabhupāda: Yes. We are working. We are not sitting idle. Now, for our food, if we just get some food by plowing some land for the animal, cows, and for me, and the cow is giving me milk, the tree are giving me fruit, why shall I work so hard? The business of dogs and hogs, whole day and night simply working for getting food and sense gratification? That is not civilization. Live peacefully, get your nice food, and save time to advance in spiritual life. This is civilization. And simply for little comfort for a few years I have wasted my time in so many humbug comforts. Actually that is... What is this comfort of the skyscraper building? I think it is a mechanical prison. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Matchbox also. Prabhupāda: Matchbox. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said last night that without electricity it would be hell. Prabhupāda: It is hell. And we are creating this hell. Harikeśa: I don't know. I'm enjoying. Prabhupāda: You are a rascal. That is the proof you are a rascal. (laughter) Devotee (1): We need defense so we have to work hard to keep defense, economy. The common man has to contribute to the state to keep its defense. Prabhupāda: Defense, that means... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's today... Unless there is very complex society... Devotee (1): Otherwise we will be exploited. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Unless there is a very complex... Prabhupāda: Therefore we say change the society. Society means you and me. If we agree that this kind of civilization is wrong, then society, what does it mean? They have made the United Nations. What is that? For this purpose, that "Why we are fighting unnecessarily?" So make their settlement, how to live. What is the standard of civilization? What is the aim of life? What they are doing in the United Nation for the last thirty years? What they have done? They simply fighting, the same cats and dogs. What is the value? Harikeśa: Whenever there is some war they send some observers. Prabhupāda: That is cats and watchdog. That's all, watchdog. (laughter) That's all, civilization of cats and dogs. *Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the 1975 Nobel Peace Award was awarded to a leading scientist who helped the nuclear weapon, who created the H*-bomb. Just recently it was awarded to him. Harikeśa: Peace prize? (laughing) Devotee (1): Yes. Nobel Peace Prize in Russia, Oslo. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, you are giving the real peace formula. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Unless they stop their sinful life, they have to suffer. *Prabhupāda: I am not giving. Kṛṣṇa is giving. Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasam sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 5.29]. There is... [break] ...formula, if you want to make peaceful the dog society, is it possible? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: So similarly, they are keeping men as dogs, and they want peace. How it is possible? They are educating general mass of people like cats and dogs, and they want peace. How it is possible? Make them first of all sober men. Then there is question of peace. [break] ...God consciousness, there is no question of peace. [break] If we know that the Supreme Lord, God, is our father, and He has..., everything belongs to Him, His property; therefore, instead of fighting, let us enjoy father's property peacefully. Then there will be peace. We are peacefully walking in this park because we know that it is commonwealth; it is government's property. I can walk, and the dog can also walk. Then there will be peace. And if I think, "No, it is my property," and you think your property, then there will be fight between you and me. So where is peace? Why you claim South Africa as your property? You are foreigner. You want peace. You are expert in keeping them subdued, the Africans. Otherwise, lawfully, it is African property. Why you have taken? Either you make it God's property, otherwise make it African property. You have no right to come here. If you say God's property, then everyone has got equal right. So they do not know what is the meaning of peace. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If nothing is our property*-in fact, everything is Kṛṣṇa's property-why is there this desire to possess so many things? *Prabhupāda: Possess, you can possess. Tena tyaktena bhuñjithā [Īśo mantra 1]. The real proposal is that everything belongs to God. Then God's representative, king, he gives you land. But you require for ten men's foodstuff. You calculate the ten men's foodstuff, for producing, you require so much land, so the king gives you land. You work and grow your food. And because it is God's property, you give some tax. Whatever you produce, twenty*-five percent give to God or king, and balance, you enjoy. If there is no production-no tax. This is peaceful life. You work. You take land, God's land. You cannot... Why you have occupied so much land? Others, they are not allowed to enter; where there is overpopulation? How you can expect peace? Just like in China and India and other places they're overpopulation. Why don't you allow them, that "In Africa there is no sufficient population. Please come and toil and grow your food and live peacefully"? Where is that formula? Rascals, they are wanting peace. All rascal, rogues. And why they have become rascal, rogues? For want of God consciousness. They do not know that it is God's property, falsely thinking, "My property." And today I am thinking, "My property," and next day I become a dog on the same property. Hm? This dog loitering, who can say he was not formerly a Mr. Smuts? Who can say? Maybe he was Smuts; *now he is dog. How can you take him? This is nature's process. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. After death you'll have to accept another body. Now who can guarantee that General Smuts did not accept a dog's body? Who can guarantee? Where is the science? You think that he is dead and gone, but Kṛṣṇa does not say like that. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Now what kind of body he has got? Where is the scientist to ascertain that "Mr., General Smuts has got now this body. He is living here"? Where is the science? You simply see like a fool and rascal, "My father is gone." Where your father gone? Where did he live so long? Why did you not see him? Where is the science? He is simply crying like a child, "My father is gone." Where he has gone? Find him out. And what he was? Why did you not see so long? This is their knowledge. Harikeśa: It seems unless there is some monarch who is ruling over the whole world, one personality... Prabhupāda: No, not... Yes, whole world. He must be rājarṣi, just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, representative of Kṛṣṇa. He can divide to small kings, "Now you look after such tract of land," and he divides. In this way there will be peace. No tax. If you are unable to produce anything, then no tax. Why should you levy tax from the poor man? Harikeśa: What about those people who don't want to work? They are lazy. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: What about lazy people? Prabhupāda: Let them become śūdra. Let them become servant. After all, unless he works, he cannot get his food. So let him become servant. He has to work to get food. No property. He should not be given any property. If you work, you can get food. Just like animal. Harikeśa: How in the beginning is it decided that somebody is working and he should be given or not given? Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: How in the beginning... Let's say you have a king... Prabhupāda: Beginning Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: No, no. Let's say you have a king, and he is deciding this person is worthy of... *Prabhupāda: No, no, beginning, Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you read Bhagavad*-gītā? You do not know? Harikeśa: No, no. Yes. Prabhupāda: What is the social arrangement? What is that? Harikeśa: That Kṛṣṇa created the four orders. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you make that four orders, and then society will be in order. But you are not taking Kṛṣṇa's advice. You are manufacturing your hellish ideas. Harikeśa: No, I was just wondering how one would be able to see who was acting in a certain way unless they were first engaged in something. They have to be doing some activity... Prabhupāda: No, no. Harikeśa: ...so you can see what kind of quality they have. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Take "everyone is rascal," then train them. That is wanted. Take everyone as rascal. There is no question that "Here is intelligent man, here is rascal, here is the..." No. First of all take them all rascals, and then train them. That is wanted. That is wanted now. At the present moment the whole world is full of rascals. Now, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, select amongst them. Just like I am training. You are brāhmaṇa by training. So one who is prepared to be trained as brāhmaṇa, classify him in the brāhmaṇa. One is trained up as kṣatriya, classify him. In this way, cātur*-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣ... Harikeśa: And that kṣatriya would engage everyone basically as śūdra and then pick from them. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: He would initially pick... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You pick up... You take the whole mass of people as śūdra. Then... Harikeśa: Pick out. Prabhupāda: Pick out. And rest, who is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya, then he is śūdra. That's all, very easy thing. If he cannot be trained up as engineer, then he remains as a common man. There is no force. This is the way of organizing society. There is no force. Śūdra is also required. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now the incentive in modern society to become educated or to become engineer is money. What is the incentive in Vedic culture? Prabhupāda: There is no need of money. The brāhmaṇa teaches everything free of charge. There is no question of money. Anyone can take education as a brāhmaṇa or a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya. There is no... Vaiśya doesn't require any education. Kṣatriyas require little. Brāhmaṇa require. But that is free. Just find out a brāhmaṇa guru and he will give you free education. That's all. This is society. Now, as soon as... At the present moment, as soon as one wants to be educated, he requires money. But in the Vedic society there is no question of money. Education free. Harikeśa: So the incentive is the happiness in society? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... Everyone is hankering after: "Where is happiness?" This will be the happiness. When people will be peaceful, happy in their living condition, that will bring happiness, not by imagining that "If I have got a skyscraper building, I will be happy," and then jump over and commit suicide. That is going on. He is thinking that "If I have a skyscraper building, I will be happy," and when he is frustrated, he jumps down. That is going on. This is happiness. That means all rascals. They do not know what is happiness. Therefore everyone requires guidance from Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now you were saying that there is high rate of suicide here? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Why? This is the country possessing gold mine, and why they are...? And you said that it is difficult to become poor here. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You have to try hard to become poor man here. Prabhupāda: Yes. And still there is suicide. Why? Every man is rich man, and why he is committing suicide? Hm? Can you reply? Devotee (1): They lack central happiness? Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no happiness. (pause) Nobody can remain lazy, because he will be hungry. So how he will remain lazy? He'll have to go somewhere, begging food, and he'll say, "First of all work. Then get your food." He'll work. So there is no question of remaining lazy. Just like the hippies. They do not work, but when they do not get food from anywhere, they go and work. Is it not? So he will be obliged to work. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is the incentive, then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Some of them steal. Instead of working, they steal their food. Prabhupāda: Yes. Steal... When he is arrested, then he has to work in the prison. That's all. Harikeśa: Chopping rocks. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise whipping. In Bhagavad*-gītā it is recommended that instead of keeping yourself lazy without working, better to steal. Better to steal. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How is that? Prabhupāda: Huh? That is there. Stealing is bad work, bad work. It is also working, but bad work. So Kṛṣṇa recommends that instead of keeping yourself lazy, better do bad work. Harikeśa: "Action is better than inaction." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes. Harikeśa: A man cannot even keep his own body in shape. Prabhupāda: Yes. So stealing is still better than keeping oneself lazy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "It is better to perform one's duty, even though it may be imperfect, than to perform another's duty"? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (laughter) Harikeśa: I've always wondered... The food will be taken care of in a perfect varṇāśrama society; government is taken care of... Prabhupāda: Government means you, like rascal fools like you. So how you will take care? Harikeśa: When it is properly set up. Prabhupāda: First of all you see the government, what is government? Government means a pack of rascals and fools. That's all. This is modern government. All these thieves and rogues are voted to be government men. So how you expect good government? It is not possible. "People's government." All people are rascals. That means government rascal. People's government. Harikeśa: How would the other necessities of life be taken care of, like medical things? If actually they have no knowledge, and they have to require to build these gigantic hospitals... *Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇas, the brāhmaṇas will give you medical help. Āyur*-Veda. They will read Āyur-Veda. They will give help. *Harikeśa: So the Āyur*-Veda possibly can work nowadays. Prabhupāda: Why not? *Harikeśa: Some people were telling me that the herbs had lost all their effectiveness in the Kali*-yuga. Prabhupāda: Then die. (laughter) Do you mean to say this modern medical treatment is guarantee for your living? Harikeśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then? That is also not guarantee. If you see the herbs and plants are no more effective, then if there is no guarantee in your modern medical, there is no guarantee. So why should you spend so much money? As soon as I go to a doctor, immediately twenty dollars. As soon as go to purchase some drugs, immediately twenty. If I have no money... And still that is not guarantee, so why shall I spend so much money? *Harikeśa: So actually this money doesn't even exist in Vedic society*-money. Prabhupāda: Money is not required. You require things. Just like instead of money, you are getting papers. Money means gold. Where is gold? You are cheated. Money means gold. So instead of possessing gold, you are possessing some paper, written there, "hundred dollars." And you are such a fool, you are satisfied. You are being cheated. Bank's check and currency notes, you keep it in your..., "Oh, here is my money." Is that money? Just see. Devotee (3): They only do that to make it easier for them, because they've got so much money that they can't carry it... Prabhupāda: That's all right, but actually it is not money. You are befooled. You are such a fool that you accept a piece of paper as money. Therefore I say you are rascal. That is my business. If I say "Government, give me gold," and government has passed law, "No, you cannot possess gold," that means cheating. How I shall keep gold, that is my business. First of all you give me gold. It is due to me. But you are giving me paper. That means cheating is begun from you. Harikeśa: How will the government decide what my gold is and what his gold is? How does the gold get distributed? Prabhupāda: Gold coins. Formerly there was gold coins. We have seen in our childhood gold coins, silver coins. There was no paper. Harikeśa: But you have to do something to get it. Prabhupāda: Yes. I will have to do something. That is another thing. But why you are cheating me? Instead of gold, you are giving me paper. Formerly... You have seen in Kṛṣṇa book that one fruit man came, and Kṛṣṇa was taking some grain. It was falling down. So that was the... A fruit man come, and you give him a packet of grain. Then whatever exchange is possible, the fruit man gives you fruit. That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is called bartering. Prabhupāda: Bartering. So there is no need of money. Similarly, you go to another shop. You get. So you produce your food, and in exchange, in barter, you get all things, other things. Somebody is producing something, somebody is producing something. But it can be done. Suppose I am a blacksmith. You want some work from me. So you say that "I'll make this instrument for me." So I say, "You give me one kg paddy." So you give me one kg, I prepare you, so your necessity is fulfilled. Now I have got so much paddy. Now, I may go to purchase something else because I am blacksmith, so grains will be used for my eating, and for, say for ghee, I take the same grain somewhere. So where is the money need of? Harikeśa: It's very difficult to cheat in that system. It's very difficult to cheat. Prabhupāda: Cheat? Harikeśa: In a system of bartering it's very hard to cheat. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no cheating. Everyone is simply simple, honest. And here the government begins cheating. He is engaging you to hard work day and night and paying you a piece of paper, where it is written "one hundred dollars." That's all. This is your society, cheating and cheater. That's all. Harikeśa: People have a hard time understanding that point, because with a hundred dollar note you can buy things. Prabhupāda: Therefore I say you are all rascals. You do not know. If I say, the government may arrest me that I am infusing people in a different way. But that is the fact. Harikeśa: So a government's duty would be to abolish this false standard of money, and then automatically... Prabhupāda: Yes. Government's only duty is that government gives me land and I pay tax: "Whatever I produce, take one fourth." Finish. All taxes. If I don't produce, there is no tax. That's all. That is the business between the government and the public. That's all. Harikeśa: If the public are giving like one quarter of a perishable item, what does the government do with that? Let's say they were growing some vegetables, so they give one quarter of that to the government. What would the government do with that? They've got so many tons of vegetables. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: And everybody is taken care of, because they are growing it. *Prabhupāda: After all, vegetable will be eaten by somebody. So let government distribute there. Vegetable, grains, fruits, milk, ghee, yogurt, natural produce*-they will be used by somebody. The government may store and distribute, those who are in need. That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maybe somebody is only producing gold or gold plates, or somebody is producing something that isn't food. So he would give that to the government. Prabhupāda: Well, gold plates, that is not a necessary thing. He can eat on plantain leaf, natural production. That is luxury. So when people live simple life, the luxuries will no more be required. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let's say the government is building some wells or some roads. They could feed the people who are doing that, śūdras who are doing that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śūdras, that "You dig this well and take your food." That's all. Work will go on. At the present moment I require one scissor. I can go to the blacksmith and pay him some grain. He will give me. Now they are producing, Krupp Company in Germany, millions of razor, millions of scissors. Now they will have to find market, where to sell. And as soon as goes to sell in India, the British government-"No, no. You cannot sell." Then he becomes angry: "Oh, all right." He declares war. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So complex. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on. "These Britishers do not allow me to go there? All right, kill them." That was the Hitler policy and Kaiser's policy, to kill British empire. They did it. They were successful. But they were also killed. This is going on, unnecessary. Why you produce so much razor and scissor? And then find out market, and when there is competition, there is anger, there is enviousness, there is fight, one after another, one after another. Where is peace? Why do you produce so many unnecessarily? Why do you produce so many cars, when there is scarcity of power, and fight with Arabians? Anartha. Therefore it is called anartha, unnecessary. Anarthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje [SB 1.7.6]. As soon as people will be devotee, they will not require unnecessary things. They will be satisfied, simply bare necessities of life. That is peaceful condition. You create unnecessary needs of life, and then there is competition, there is hellish life, the factory, and then the factory man requires wine to forget his hard labor, so on, so on. Then he become thieves. He become rogues. This is your society. How you can expect peace? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The only solution is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: That's it, only solution. *Harikeśa: It also seems like the only government that would work would be the Vedic government. Varnāśrama*-dharma is the only thing that will work. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa conscious government means Vedic government. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We have histories that for millions of years such governments were working successfully. Now, for a few thousand years, they squabble, this type of government, that type of government. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, first of all, the government is cheating. He is giving me paper in the name of money, and forcing me to accept it. Harikeśa: That seems to be the root cause of... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Government is taking labor from you. You ask, "If you pay me three hundred dollars, then I shall work." "All right, I shall give you. Work." Then what is that three hundred? I print and pay you, and you rascal, you accept it, three hundred dollars. What is that three hundred dollars for government? Printing press. And you are so rascal, "Yes, I have got now three hundred dollars." This is going on. This is artificial inflation. Why there is inflation? Now you have got three hundred dollars without any hard labor. And when you go to purchase*-I haven't got three hundred dollars; you have got-"All right, I shall pay this price." So price is increased because the seller will see: "Who pays me large price?" So you have got unnecessary money. You offer him large price. So I am poor man; I could not purchase. This is going on. Harikeśa: There was once a few plots exposed, how some governments were ruined because foreign governments were printing up money just like their money, and shipping it in. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. I have seen it. I have seen it during last wartime. One Chinese man was coming to one of my friends, my business friend. So he would give, immediately coming, a bunch of notes, maybe ten thousand. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indian notes? Prabhupāda: Yes. And a list of goods. He was his purchasing agent. So that bunch of notes was printed in China. You see? And he brings it and gives to a merchant here, and he gives him real goods, and he takes it out. This is inflation. Devotee (2): Could he spend that money? Prahupada: Yes. I print ten thousand dollars' worth currency note, and I give you, and I take you, actual goods from you, anywhere. Harikeśa: The government is doing that all the time. They take contracts from people. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is going on. Therefore price is increasing daily. Formerly British government, in the beginning, to prove their honesty, as soon as you go to the currency for changing, they will offer you, "You want coins or paper currency?" So if you think that paper currency will be convenient, you can take. Otherwise, if you want coins, they will pay you. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Gold coins. Prabhupāda: Yes, gold, silver, whatever you want. That was the... Now this is stopped. You can not ask now gold coins and silver coins. Whatever government will give you, you have to accept. Where is honesty? *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in South Africa they have a coin called the Krugerrand. And one rand is worth one hundred cents, one rand of paper money. But one rand gold is worth about seventy*-eight rand. Prabhupāda: Just see. Devotee (1): It's constantly going up and down, the price. Hundred and eight. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Here is the car, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Everything mismanaged, cheating. Harikeśa: So until the top man is Kṛṣṇa conscious, this cheating will basically continue. *Prabhupāda: Who is the top man? Everyone is top man. Instead of one king, now you have got one hundred kings. The minister, the secretaries, the under*-secretaries, the deputy minister, and so on, so on, so on. So there was only one unfortunate king. Now you have got three dozen kings, and you have to maintain them like kings. This is going on. Harikeśa: They can pay them with their phony money. Prabhupāda: And they are seeking this post because they know that without doing anything, money will come. That's all. And as soon as you approach some minister, he will ask you, "All right, give me an application." And after six months' reminding, he will say, "No, it is not possible." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Because so many people have to apply for any one post. That's a fact. Then he will put his son there. Prabhupāda: All rogues and thieves. Harikeśa: So actually it is not possible to change the... *Prabhupāda: Change*-if they become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Harikeśa: But the system itself is defective. How can... Prabhupāda: No, the defective will be correct when you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like in your past life you had so many defects. Now it is corrected. That is practical. Harikeśa: Let's say somebody is a minister... Prabhupāda: Anybody. Harikeśa: ...but his occupation is cheating. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let him become Kṛṣṇa conscious. He will stop this cheating business. Harikeśa: But he has to stop. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Rājarṣi. Prabhupāda: Yes. He has to stop. It will be stopped as soon as he becomes a devotee. Harikeśa: So then gradually it will become the varṇāśrama, with the one central head. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: So we don't try to make a revolutionary system. Prabhupāda: This is revolution. Harikeśa: We try to just make them Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it's automatic revolution. Prabhupāda: Yes. Peaceful revolution. Other revolution will not stand. [break] (in car) ...perfect philosophy. Harikeśa: Your method is also the perfect method, the books in the colleges and libraries, educated people and... Wonderful. Actually, you have set everything up to do this. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. I am simply putting them for modern man's understanding. That's all. Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because they cannot understand, they think, "Dogmatic." It is not dogmatic. Most scientific. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they're all dull*-brained. Satisfied with a few scraps, work like dogs. Would you like to walk here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Where? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This place is okay? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's very close to the temple. Harikeśa: Nobody plays golf that early in the morning? Prabhupāda: [break]...they have to manage, and the vaiśyas will produce, and brāhmaṇa will give the brain. Then the society will be peace... And at the present moment these śūdras, they are, by artificial votes, they are becoming the brain of the society. How it can be happy? The rascals, they are voted to the legislative assembly, and they are passing every day law which is never perfect. This is going on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Stopgap measures. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They create problem, then they try to solve it. Prabhupāda: That's it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of our life members in Newcastle, a town between Durban and Johannesburg... The city council, they've decided they want to build a road right where his house is. He just built new house. Now they're going to tear it down, so then he has to build another house. Prabhupāda: Just see. To punish him? (pause) Just see, so much loads of books. He's feeling unhappy, and what he is learning? To become hippie. That's all. Harikeśa: He's learning to reject it. Prabhupāda: From the childhood he's supplied so many books, and when he is young man, he is hippie. That's all. Instead of becoming brahmacārī, devotee, he is drunkard, he's drug addicted. That's all. (end) Room Conversation with Reporter of The Star -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg Reporter: Your Grace, can I start by asking you what do you think of South Africa? Prabhupāda: That you can reply. Just preach this cult, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I was expected since a long time. So I could not come here due to my other engagements. Reporter: Yes. What are your views of the country? What do you think of it? Prabhupāda: Every country is all right. I don't find any fault. But only difficulty is that all over the world the civilization is being misdirected. Reporter: Misguided. *Prabhupāda: Misdirected. They are not taking importance of the right thing. Just like we are in this body. Now, when the body is dead, we cry that "My father is gone away. My son is gone away." But if I reply that "Your father is lying on the bed. Why you're crying that your father has gone away?" what will be the reply? The father whom the son has seen since his birth, that body in the coat and pant, so that coat*-pant and body is there on the bed, and why the son is crying, "My father has gone away"? What is the reply? What should be the reply? Reporter: Well, I know what I would reply. I don't know what you would reply. Prabhupāda: No, I want what is your reply. Reporter: My reply would be that he hasn't gone, that he's gone to God. Prabhupāda: He...? He has not seen his father. That is my reply. Now, the person whom he accepted as his father, he is lying there on the bed. And now he is crying that "My father has gone." That means he has not seen his father. So this is going on. The whole world movement is on the basic principle of that living force which makes the body so important. Either a politician or a philosopher or a scientist, so long the living force is there, the body is important. And as such, the living force is gone, then it is simply a lump of matter. So we are taking care of this lump of matter, not of the living force. This is the mistake of the whole civilization. We do not know what is that living force. There is no scientist, there is no philosopher, nothing of the sort. Simply as child we cry, "Oh, my father has gone away. My father has gone." Why did you not see who is your father or who is your son? Where is that education? Where is that enlightenment? Where is that university? Therefore I say the whole civilization is being misdirected. They do not know what is the important factor in civilization. Reporter: If I asked you to give the people who will read my article a message... Prabhupāda: This is my message, that the whole civilization is misdirected, giving importance on the body, but the living force within the body, he does not know anything about. Reporter: But what message would you give to people in terms of helping people, perhaps, to live better lives? *Prabhupāda: Yes. But if the basic principle is wrong, then all their plans for becoming happy is also wrong. So he does not know what is the important factor. So when he comes to know that he is not this body, he is spirit soul*-he studies what is the nature of the spirit soul, what is the necessity of the spirit soul-then he becomes happy. If he is under misconception... Suppose if I take you, Mr. Singer, as the coat, and I take care of the coat and not of you, person, then is that very good proposal? So that is going on. They are taking care of the shirt and coat, not the person who is putting on the shirt and coat. This is the mistake of the modern civilization. And the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an attempt to correct it, not theoretically, but by scientifically, by philosophically, economically, religiously, everything. Therefore we have got so many books. We are trying to distribute, enlighten people. This is our business. Then people will be happy. Unless one who knows "what I am, and what is my business, what is my aim of life," then how he can be happy? Just like a dog is jumping here and there, here and there, but he does not know what is the aim of life, so if we do not come to the spiritual platform, that we remain animal like cats and dogs, then what is the civilization of cats and dogs? If you keep the dogs as dog and if you ask some of them to come together and make a peace formula, is it possible the dogs will be able to make any peace formula? Because they are dogs, they will go on barking. That's all. So we are attempting so many peace formula, but we are keeping the consciousness on the body, exactly like the dog. And therefore there is no peace. There cannot be any peace. First of all you must come to the real platform, the living force, what is that spirit soul, what is the necessity, what is the aim. That you do not know. Reporter: Your Grace, a great many of South Africa's church leaders from some of the big churches are fearful that South Africa is going to find itself in a situation, or find... What message would you give this country in terms of avoiding any... *Prabhupāda: No, I am going to every country because everywhere the same mistake is going on, bodily concept of life. So I am trying to bring them to the real life and then make their plan. They will be happy. It is not for South Africa. For any Africa, or any country, South America or South India or anywhere. The problem is the same. Everywhere the same conception: "I am South African." "I am American." "I am Indian." "I am this." "I am that." So all these things are on the bodily concept of life. Nobody says, "No, I am not this body. I am different from body." Nobody says. We are simply preaching that "You are not this body. You are different from this..." That is our unique situation. Perhaps throughout the whole world we are trying to preach that "You are not this body. You are different from body." And we have not manufactured this idea. This is the instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā, the first teaching is, *This is the first instruction. Just like in the body of a child the spirit soul is there. Therefore the child is becoming a boy, and the boy is becoming a young man. Young man is becoming old man. Then what is the next? Then the old man must have next body. This is very simple logic. Now... But I am the same. I was also a baby. I was a boy. I remember. But the body is no longer existing. I am existing. I know that I had such and such body. So therefore the conclusion is that after annihilation of this body, I will exist in another body. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So who knows this science? And there are 8,400,000 forms of body. What kind of or what form of body I am going to get next, where is that science? So we are teaching, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, all these things, not only theoretically, but with scientific knowledge, philosophy, everything. You can see our... We have got fifty books of four hundred, five hundred pages each. We are teaching only about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Reporter: Your Grace, what stops so many people from becoming Kṛṣṇa devotees? Prabhupāda: Join this, our center. You come here; you'll become Kṛṣṇa devotee. Just like these boys. They are not imported from India. They are European, American, and South African. You are South African? Reporter: British. Prabhupāda: British. And who is South African? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're South Africans. Prabhupāda: So we welcome everyone, African, South African, North African. Reporter: What stops so many millions of people from doing it? Prabhupāda: Well, knowledge means it is meant for few men. If you want men without any university degree, you will get many thousands. But as soon as say, "We want graduate," it will be minimized. Or as soon as you say "postgraduate," it will be still minimized. So as soon as there is question of knowledge, the number of people will be diminished. So we cannot expect mass of people. But if there are good persons, exemplified person, vivid example, that will help the whole society-"There is ideal class. They know everything." Reporter: You're going to be delivering two addresses next week at one of our biggest universities. Prabhupāda: That he knows. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Monday and Wednesday. It would be nice if you would mention that in your article. Reporter: Yes, I will. But I want to know what will you tell the people. Prabhupāda: These things in different way, that "Come to your pure knowledge and make your plan. Then you will be happy. And if your basic principle is wrong, then whatever plan you make, it is useless." Reporter: Yes. But, you see, the thing that worries me is that how do people begin to understand that their basic principle might be wrong? Prabhupāda: Just as one goes to a school and gradually he understands what is one, what is two, what is three, what is "two plus two equal to four," how to place. It is a question of learning, education. Reporter: Yes, but this doesn't effect the ordinary man in the street, Your Grace. Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: This doesn't effect the masses. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The mass of people, he says it doesn't effect them. *Prabhupāda: Mass of people will follow. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭha [Bg. 3.21]. Just like everywhere, in politics there is in one leader and people follow him, so we want first-class leader. Then mass will follow. If the leaders are rascals and fools, then what will be result? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. If the leader is blind, how he can help other blind men? He must be open eyes. Then he can lead thousands of blind men-"Come here." And if he is himself blind, then how he can help? That is wanted. One blind man... One open-eyes man is sufficient to lead many thousands of blind men. But if the leaders are also blind, then it is useless. He must be in perfect knowledge. That is wanted. We do not expect that mass of people will understand this philosophy. It is not possible. But at least the leaders, they must know how to lead people*-the father, the teachers, the government, like that. Then people will follow. Reporter: My last question: Will you be meeting other spiritual leaders in South Africa? Prabhupāda: I do not know who is that spiritual leader. Nobody... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We haven't found any really prominent personalities to introduce Prabhupāda to. Prabhupāda: But one spiritual leader is there, Swami Sahajananda. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the Divine Life Society in Durban, the head of that. He wrote one letter praising Prabhupāda's work, that he is rightfully representing the Vedic literatures. Reporter: Well, thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have taken lunch? So, it is very important movement. Try to study, understand. And it is the duty of the pressmen, journalists, to propagate. They must know the first science of the living force within the body. That is the most important part. Reporter: I just feel that, in a way, I have enough to write, and I have enough to... Well, I believe in giving a little message of something in those things that I write. I try not to make them negative, and at least, I can present people with what they have and what you are saying. But I feel that within myself, and this concerns myself, that I haven't spoken to you enough, that I haven't heard you enough, and that I have... Prabhupāda: No, you can ask me more, more, other question. I can reply. There is no harm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You have any questions? Reporter: Well, I can't stay now, and I feel too that I am imposing because I know that His Grace wants to rest. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Okay. What you could do is write one article introducing, and then come to the Monday and Wednesday night programs and write another article. Because... Reporter: Yes. I'll try at least to prepare this one trip on Monday... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. That would be very nice if you act as an advertisement also. Thank you very much. Reporter: Your Grace, thank you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. *Reporter: Good*-bye. *Prabhupāda: [break] You have done good because you are waiting for somebody's decision. So the decision*-maker can change. Otherwise so many people are working so hard day and night; he is not getting even sufficient food. And another man, without working, he is getting so much money. How it is possible? Hm? So God is not an instrument of your whims. He is fully independent. That is God. Agatan gatan patiyase.(?) By His different energy He can..., does something which is impossible to be done. Take for example myself. I went to United States, unknown country, without any friend, without any hope, simply on theory (chuckles) that "I shall go and preach there," and with this expectation also, that "As soon as I shall ask them to give up all these habits, they will ask me to go away." (laughs) So in the face of so many odds and uncertainty, I went there, simply depending on my spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, with this hope only, that "If they desire, everything can be done. But otherwise there is no hope. I am going there, hopeless, just to make an experiment. My other Godbrothers, they failed. All right, Guru Mahārāja asked me. In the beginning I did not do. Let me do it in this old age." So it became surprisingly success. Business started with forty rupees, and now we have got four crores. Where is that business in the material world, that a man started business with forty rupees and he has got four crores within ten years? Not only money, but also fame, respect. What do these kings and president or minister get respect? Harikeśa: It takes them fifty years. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Still, they get kicked on the face like Nixon. *Prabhupāda: Nobody would sincerely respect them. Only for some self*-interest. But here, respect opportunity, it is out of love. That is not for any bargaining. So who can get this? So this is God's... So one has to see by the result. That is stated in the... I think we have described. The, what is called, container is understood by the quantity of contents. The container is understood by the quantity of the contents. The example is given of water-water, air, and bright. When there is good flame, then we can understand that the contents is very inflammable. Just like petrol. So that is in comparison like when there is big amount of, quantity of water; that means the container is big. Similarly, the big quantity of ether, then it is to be understood, quantity according to the content. So one has to understand, as Kṛṣṇa said, yad yad vibhūtimat sattvaṁ mama tejo-'mśa... How much Kṛṣṇa's favor is there, we have to understand from the contents. Then we can understand, we can make an estimate of the container. By the quantity of contents we can understand the, what is called...? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Capacity. *Prabhupāda: Capacity of the container. This is described in the Bhāgavata and the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta also. Kṛṣṇa śakti vina nahe kṛṣṇa nāme pracāra: "Without Kṛṣṇa's special power of attorney, nobody can preach His name." Caitanya-caritāmṛta. So these rascals, Godbrothers, they are envious that... What he has written? Bon Mahārāja. Just see what kind of men they are. They are not even ordinary human being. They are envious of me, and what to speak of make a judgment by estimation? They're envious. Enviousness is immediately disqualification of Vaiṣṇava, immediate. He is not a human being. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ [SB 1.1.2]. This Bhāgavatam is meant for the person who is completely not envious. That is the beginning. Why a Vaiṣṇava should be envious for anyone? Everyone is working according to his karma. He is trying to rectify him, that "Be out of these clutches of karma. You come to bhakti." Why he should be envious? Vāñchā-kalpatarubhyaś ca kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca. A Vaiṣṇava should be like ocean of mercy to reclaim the fallen souls. That is Vaiṣṇava's qualification. So Vaiṣṇava should be envious? Just see. So these persons, they are not even human being, what to speak of Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava cannot be envious. Vaiṣṇava should be: "Oh, my Lord's name is being broadcast. He is getting, giving so much service to make Kṛṣṇa known." That man has appreciated, that "All these spiritual leaders, they are deriding. You are the only man... You are... It enthuses us, give us more encouragement, that you are keeping intact, love of Kṛṣṇa." This is an appreciation. Why he should be envious? He should be, rather, very much enthused that "This single man is keeping Kṛṣṇa all over the world." And everyone is deriding. Even Gandhi is killing Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Radhakrishnan is killing. Their only business is to kill Kṛṣṇa. He is also doing that, our, this Bon Mahārāja. He never speaks of Kṛṣṇa. His rascal, that Institute of Indian Philosophy, nobody goes to urine(?) there. We see practically. And our temple is always filled up, five hundred men. And he is trying for the last forty years. He is simply planning: "This will be playground. This will be this ground. This will be this ground." And it is becoming jungle. Still, he is so envious, black snake. So one circular letter should be issued to all our center, that "Any Bon Mahārāja or anyone, his representative, should not be received." They are envious. Yes. Quoting that. We have got several complaints like that. Satsvarūpa also complained. Sometimes our order was cancelled by Bon Mahārāja's propaganda. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mean he has been corresponding with professors in America? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he has got that background. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From catalog, with his literature. There must be some catalog or something that his list of books is in. Prabhupāda: His books? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Something. Or the Oriental... Prabhupāda: He has no book. Harikeśa: Just that one book. Prabhupāda: That is also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also, when I read that book, long time ago, he said in the introduction that once he took a vow for two years not to speak anything. I thought it was very strange for a Vaiṣṇava. Harikeśa: He lived underneath the ground in one cell. You know that? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just make a show. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You've said, "Yes, if someone can only speak nonsense, they shouldn't speak. But if they can speak about Kṛṣṇa to glorify Kṛṣṇa*-kathayantaś ca māṁ nityam-then always they can talk about Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: He said? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, you say. He said, "I have taken vow not to speak anything." I thought it was crazy. Prabhupāda: That is condemned by Prahlāda Mahārāja. You will find in Prahlāda Mahārāja that "This is for professional men to get some prestige." Prahlāda Mahārāja said like that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can we take morning walk now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Harikeśa: We're having the morning walk in the room today. (end) Morning Walk -- October 17, 1975, Johannesburg Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa (in car): People have to be great fools not to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Grateful? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fool. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes, mūḍha. Therefore we say, mūḍha. That is the state, symptom. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. As soon as you see that one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is mūḍha. Judgment is already there. [break] ...this lump, (laughter) lump of matter. It is our mental concoction that "This lump is bad; this lump is good." The whole thing is lump. There is no such discrimination, "this lump" or "that lump." [break] ...being a lover of God, nobody can smile, that's a fact. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Without being a lover of God. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahma*-bhūtāḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā. Who can become a... Smiling means he is satisfied in every respect. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa is always smiling, isn't He? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Smeran bhangi*-traya-paricitam. Kṛṣṇa is always smiling and standing in curved position. That is jubilant. Why so near? Harikeśa: Because the car makes so much noise that if I don't they'll never hear. *Prabhupāda: Smeran bhangi*-traya-paricitam saci-drstir na drstim. [break] ...shows that people are prosperous. They are not cheap buildings like America. [break] ...termite, always attacked by termite. They have no taste for good building. [break] And fuming? Fuming process? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fumigation. Prabhupāda: Ah, fumigation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: When the termites get into the wood they eat up the wood and they hide in nests underneath the house. So the way that they try to kill the termites is by gassing them. They cover their house with a tent, and then they gas, and it goes into the nests and kills all the termites. They are perfecting this art of killing. You said that in Calcutta in a very expensive cloth shop... Your father's brother used to have cloth shop? Prabhupāda: Hm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That when there was rats and they would eat the cloth that he would simply put some prasādam in the room. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And the rats would come and take. They wouldn't eat the cloth. Prabhupāda: No. Just like a man also. If he gets food, shelter, then he doesn't commit any criminal act. Man is also dangerous. Even if you give him food, shelter, he will do mischievous activities. That is man. But an animal will not do it. You can tame even a tiger by giving him food. He will never... If he sees that you are giving him food he'll never attack, the tiger also, feeling obliged. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's duracara? Duracara? Prabhupāda: Ferocious, but still, when he is given food by somebody, he feels obliged. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: On one lecture tape you said that man is duracara, very difficult to... When he's misbehaved? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] (out of car) ...by chanting mantra and herb. But a crooked man cannot be controlled any way. Therefore he is more dangerous than the snake. Sarpat krurataraḥ khalaḥ. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why is it that the man cannot be tamed and the unintelligent animal can be tamed? Prabhupāda: Because man is more intelligent. He can misuse his independence and intelligence, whereas animal cannot do that. He is not so intelligent. He has... That is the defect of the modern civilization. They have been described as duṣkṛtina. Duṣkṛtina means he has got brain more intelligent than the animal, but the brain is being utilized for mischievous activities. Therefore they are called duṣkṛtina. Brain should be utilized for some benevolent work for the good of the living entities. But this brain, modern educated brain, is being misused for discovering something which is very dangerous to the human society. Therefore duṣkṛtina. And he is getting Nobel Prize because he has discovered this atomic weapon which is so dangerous, and he is glorified, "Oh, you have done so nice scientific discovery." What is that discovery? "That you can kill... Instead of one man with gun, you can kill one thousand men. Therefore you must be offered Nobel Prize." This is man's appreciation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Better to walk this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are called mūḍhas, all rascals. Na mā duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ. How you can understand that this man is mischievously meritorious? How you can understand? Duṣkṛtina means mischievously meritorious. This man is meritorious, but he is using his merit for mischievous activities. That is called duṣkṛtina. So how you can understand this man is mischievously meritorious? You can say, "How is that? A man is meritorious and at the same time he is mischievous?" There're so many organization, especially in Western country, big, big rogues' organization simply for cheating, simply for smuggling. They have got merit. Otherwise how they have organized such big, big organization? But what for? All mischievous activities, harassing government, harassing people. The merit is being used. There are many organizations in the Western country. Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. Many, many. All these realty business. Realty business, you know? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Realty. *Prabhupāda: Seventy-five percent of them are mischievous. I have got experience. Seventy-five percent, they are simply mischievously planning-you have got five thousand or ten thousand dollar*-to take it away, showing you that you are getting 200,000 worth of property. In this way they make implication, take your ten thousand dollar, and then finished. Many cases. Their only business is this. Big, big lawyer implicated. Therefore they are duṣkṛtina. Go to a lawyer; *immediately you are implicated. You see, this man is condemned, Nixon, and he is to pay the lawyer's bill by working hard, by writing a book and selling the good will to some company. He has to pay the lawyer's bill. He has no money. The lawyers, doctors, as soon as they get some opportunity, immediately captures you and finish*-bas. How to take away all your money. Because artificially they have enhanced the standard of living, they want money. So unless they do mischievous activity, by honest means they cannot get money. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhagavad*-gītā, that they earn money by illegal methods. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why is it that in the modern day good people, they don't come into public office? Good people. In previous ages there were rājarṣis, great kings, very pious kings. Why is it that only rogues are aspiring today? *Prabhupāda: Because the democracy. You will not get vote. As soon as you become honest man in the public office, nobody will be obedient to you, and it will be impossible for him to execute any... You see? The bank manager in Delhi-he was my friend*-that "I am afraid of this union. If I press them to do something, they will immediately topsy-turvy the whole management." Bank manager said. "So I am afraid of the workers' union," he told me. So therefore good men, they do not go to this political post because they know they will not be able to do anything good. He will be surrounded by all rogues. Nobody will execute his order. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the future in Kali*-yuga looks very bleak. *Prabhupāda: Very, very black. Āchinna*-dāra-draviṇ gacchanti giri-kānanam. People, general people, will be so much disgusted that they will be obliged to give up family and home and go to the forest, being disappointed: "Now I cannot manage. Let me go away." Harikeśa: That's predestined. Prabhupāda: Yes, predestined. Harikeśa: But that can all change in a minute. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that can be changed only by... Therefore we are... "Go giri*-kānanam, but take shelter of Kṛṣṇa." Vānaṁ gato yad harim āśrayet. "Go, leave your, this so-called family, home, and go to the forest and take shelter of Kṛṣṇa." That is advised by Prahlāda Mahārāja. "That is the best thing in life. If you want to be free from anxiety, give up this so-called family life. Go to the forest and take shelter of Lord Kṛṣṇa." That is Prahlāda Mahārāja's advice. Don't try to adjust it. It will not be possible. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially in Kali*-yuga. *Prabhupāda: Especially in Kali*-yuga. So we are offering them shelter that "In this age you are not accustomed to go to the forest. It will be more inconvenient. Come to our center and be Kṛṣṇa conscious and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Your problems will be solved." This is our mission. Everyone is faced with problem. Otherwise why there is majority of suicide? Everyone is faced with problem. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's best to go this way. Harikeśa: Oh, somebody hitting. Prabhupāda: Shilling? Harikeśa: No, they are playing golf. Prabhupāda: Oh. How persistent life is this. His main body is cut into pieces; still, he's struggling to exist. He has got some attachment-"I shall live here, stand here for ten thousand years." This is māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī [Bg. 7.14]. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can a man's intelligence be rectified? If intelligence is the... *Prabhupāda: This hari-kīrtana, chant. Somehow or other, induce them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything all right. By flattering, by soliciting, by giving him prasāda, by elevating him, that "You are the best man in the world"*-in this way inducing him, "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," then he will be rectified. This is Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. There is no other way. He is ruined, and the more the Kali-yuga advances, he becomes more and more ruined. All other attempts will failure. Don't you see in your country the LSD-addicted hippies? Government spends so much money to rectify them-failure. But as soon as they come to our camp, immediately success. How it is possible? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: By this chanting... Prabhupāda: That is the amazement. That is the amazement of Professor Judah and all others, that "How it is happening? There is something in the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is good propaganda with the governments also. This is good way to get the governments to support our movement more and more, isn't it? Prabhupāda: The government never objected to our movement. Never. I never met any objection from government side. Neither even Christian priestly side. I never met any objection. They understand that "He is doing something." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only from your Godbrothers. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You don't like the sunshine so much. Prabhupāda: Only at the time of massage. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...Vedic statement or is it just preference? Prabhupāda: No, that is my personal. During winter it is pleasing, of course, sunshine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...walk this way. There's a ravine here. [break] Śrīla Prabhupāda, it always seems that there is some kind of inspiration for spiritual life there. Is that simply mental concoction, or is it actually a fact, the land itself? Prabhupāda: Land. It is the influence of the land. Just like Vṛndāvana. Whatever you may be, you stay here, you become spiritualized. Simply you stay there. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it possible to reform a person against their will? Prabhupāda: No, not possible. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...sign, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that someone is actually having change in heart? Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the sign that someone is actually having change in heart? Prabhupāda: By his action. [break] ...kasipu tried to make Prahlāda atheist. He failed. And Prahlāda tried to make his father theist. He failed. Don't you see? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So unless one agrees you cannot turn him. It is not possible. Five*-years'-old boy, staunch devotee, and the powerful Hiraṇyakaśipu, father, who is threatening with his life and so many ways he tried that "You become atheist, godless. Otherwise I shall kill you." He did not agree. And similarly, the son also solicited the father that "You have got so much power by the grace of God. Why you are becoming atheist?" Both of them could not turn to their side. Prahlāda remained Prahlāda, and Hiraṇyakaśipu remained Hiraṇyakaśipu. [break] ...can expect that without agreeing, conceding, one can be reformed. No, that is not possible. Impossible. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not simply by rubber stamp. Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. He must agree, "Yes." Therefore guru is required. Guru means, accept guru means, "Whatever you say, I will accept." That is guru. Otherwise friendly talk. Friendly talk will not do. To accept guru means "Now I accept you, guru, my instructor, without any argument," and that is acceptance. "Whatever you say, I shall do." That is agreement. Then he can be reformed. Śiṣyas te 'ha śādhi mā prapannam: "I surrender unto you. I become your disciple. Now you train me." Then he can be reformed. Otherwise not possible. [break] Devotee: When we were at school we accept a teacher and he teaches us mathematics or something like this, but when it comes to spiritual life and we accept a guru, people criticize by saying, "Oh, you're not thinking for yourself anymore." Prabhupāda: Yes, you have surrendered. You say, "Yes, we have surrendered. That is the way." Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. The first term is "surrender," praṇipāta. Otherwise it is not possible. If one does not surrender, there is no question of reformation. He must voluntarily surrender: "Yes. Whatever you say, I shall do." Then things can be advanced. Otherwise not possible. (end) Morning Walk -- October 18, 1975, Johannesburg Prabhupāda: ...poor people have to stand in queue. It is a mostly... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] They use this argument against us, that the Vedic culture was most solidly founded in India. Prabhupāda: But you have, I mean to say, curbed down. This rascal civilization, they could not take the Western civilization, and they lost their own civilization. This is India's bad luck. The Britishers did not teach them how to take up the Western culture, but they killed the Eastern culture. You understand? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You have no position. You cannot take the Western culture properly, and you have lost your own culture. This is India's bad luck. They never taught Indians how to become actually Westernized. No. They were not giving them sufficient education. They were very much against higher education in the beginning. They wanted some clerks to conduct their activities, mercantile and government, some third-class, fourth-class men. Educated means ABCD, that's all. "They may know ABCD and take fifty, sixty rupees salary, and go home outside the town and come in daily passenger train, and work hard here and simply get your money so that you can maintain yourself." Nothing more. No education, no money, no industry. They were not taught properly. Here I see the factories, and the arrangement is so nice. But Indian factories, go*-it is hell. Hell, simply hell. The Britishers exploited the Indians, and the capitalist class of India, they have learned how to exploit only. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Exploit their own people. Prabhupāda: That's all. Formerly the Manchester people were exploiting Indians. Now the Ahmedabad people, they have learned how to exploit. That's all. And government is satisfied because they pay tax. "Never mind. The workers may suffer, go on suffering." This is going on. And they have lost their own culture, and they have been taught how to drink, how to eat meat. This is... [break] ...fact is that Indians cannot work so hard as the Western people can work. The climate does not allow. India's climate is good for peaceful living, less work, and brain engaged in spiritual advancement. That is India's gift. They are not meant for hard work. Hard work is not required for anyone. This is animal civilization, to work very hard. Then what is the difference between animal and man? A man has to work so hard like animal; *then what is the difference? Here in the Western countries their climate is also suitable, and they are taught to work very hard like animals. And they do that. Therefore materially they become so*-called prosperous for committing suicide. Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is true. Prabhupāda: And materially advanced for committing suicide. Am I right or wrong? Devotee (1): Right, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that if one wants to increase the material standard of living, then they should increase also sex life. And this is what they are doing in India today. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Without sex life one cannot be materially enthusiastic. And if you stop sex life, then you become spiritually advanced. This is the secret. If you stop sex life, then you become spiritually advanced, and if you indulge in sex life, then you will be materially enthusiastic. That is the difference between Western and Eastern culture. The whole Eastern culture is based on how to stop sex life, and here in the Western countries, how to increase sex life. They are eating meat, eggs, drinking wine. These things will enthuse sex life. And as soon as you get very satisfactory sex life, you become enthused to work hard. Therefore karmīs, marriage is necessary, because without sex life they cannot work. And for jñānīs, yogis, bhaktas, sex life prohibited. Actually they do not know the science of life, this Western civilization. Their life means this body. Their life means this body. That means they do not know what is life. And as soon as the life is gone, the body is there*-they cannot explain. This is their ignorance. Why the life is stopped? And they are very proud of advancement. And bring in life again. That they cannot do. That means the whole basic principle is ignorance. Mūḍha nābhijānāti. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ [Bg. 9.12]. Eh? Then? Harikeśa: Rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caivam. *Prabhupāda: Ah, rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caiva prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ. Prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ. Because they have taken the shelter of prakṛti, material nature, bewildered and captivated, they do not know what is the aim of life*-moghāśā, "all baffled." Mogha karmāṇam: "Whatever they are doing, that will be useless." Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā: [Bg. 9.12] there is no knowledge. There is no knowledge. Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So with their advancement of knowledge... Prabhupāda: What is the advancement of knowledge? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are increasing sex life, and actually the advancement of knowledge should be decreasing sex life. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know what is knowledge. The knowledge means sex life. That is their knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means how to enjoy sex life, how to take shelter of abortion, child*-killing, and then contraceptive method-whole thing on the basis of sex life. That's all. They do not know except these things. They know there is botheration after sex life, but they cannot give it up. Therefore all these arrangements: take contraceptive, kill child, and what... That means the whole thing is based on sex life. That's all. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. Is that pleasure? They think it is pleasure to unite the urinals. (laughter) And this is pleasure, a standard of pleasure most third class, fourth class. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ tuccham: very abominable. Tuccham, the śāstra says, "most abominable." And they take it pleasure, and they make arrangement for this. When the dog enjoys sex life... Therefore they are allowed to do it on the street. People can see it. Is that very nice scene? The same thing is done by the human being, and they are taking: "This is all, everything." This is basic principle of their happiness. That's all. Mohinī, mohinī. This is captivation. And nature has made the woman's face so attractive, beautiful, their breast, their hips, attractive, their sound, talking, singing, all very attractive, walking, and now they are dressing naked. They are showing simply the vagina, all other parts of the body clothed. This is going on. Whole thing is based on sex life, and that is tuccham, most abominable. Prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ. It will take three hundred times births to understand that this sex life is abominable. Therefore it is bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. Not that immediately, simply by hearing our Bhagavad-gita lecture, they will give it up. It will take many, many births to understand. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. In the Vedic system, sex life is allowed only for begetting children. Therefore they are... Restriction. Allowed, but with great restriction under religious rules and regulation and so many things, garbhādāna. Then the first principle is, even it is taken for begetting child, it is not secret. *Garbhādāna-saṁskāra. There should be a function, all the brāhmaṇas and relatives should come, and there will be ceremony, and everyone will know that "This man is going to now sex, have sex for begetting children." This is ceremony, not secretly like cats and dogs. Cats and dogs also, they do not do secretly. A human being do it secretly and do not want the botheration. Therefore their scientific advancement means how to kill the child, how to make abortion, how to take contraceptive pills, how to distribute them, how allow the children, "Yes, you go on, but take these pills so that you may not be bothered." Yes. Why not stop it, botheration? That you cannot, because animals. Because animal civilization, they cannot do it. Kaṇḍutive manivasi viṣaheta dhīraḥ. Why don't you teach them to become dhīraḥ, sober-"Let me tolerate this itching sensation"-brahmacārī? That teaching is not good. You do it repeatedly, suffer, and suffer consequences. And to stop it they suffer in so many ways, suffering, suffering. Bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ [SB 7.9.45]. Sex life, illicit or legal, the after-effect is suffering. Even it is not illicit*-it is legal-then to take care of the wife or the children, for their education, for their upliftment and so on, so on, so on-suffering. And if it is illicit, then these sufferings: you commit sinful activities, kill the child, contraceptive, with the abortion, go to the doctor, pay, and so on, so on. So where is no suffering? Either legal or illicit, you have to suffer. Bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ. These rascals, once they have done, "That's all right. You have got one child. Just take of." "No, again, again." Once you have committed sinful activities, killing the child in the womb, "All right, stop it now." "No, again." Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana. He's never satisfied. He knows that there is suffering behind this. Still, he'll not stop it. Therefore a sober man... A man should be educated to become sober, that "Let me tolerate this itching, that's all. I save so much trouble." This is knowledge. To become rascal and more rascal and more rascal and suffer, is that civilization? Simply to make the people rascal and suffer and commit suicide? Just tell them that he has created this civilization that suffer and become rascal. That's all. Unless you become rascal, how you will suffer? So keep them rascal and suffer. This is nature's arrangement, that "You living entity, you have forgotten Kṛṣṇa. All right, come under my control. Be rascal, remain rascal and suffer." Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā [Bg. 7.14]. Why she is doing that? "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise you will go on suffering like this." This is the nature's way. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. But the rascal... Because he is rascal, he does not know that "I am under the full control of prakṛti, material nature, and her business is to keep me rascal and suffer." And they are advanced in education. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they will say that this so*-called suffering is actually pleasure. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. Go on pleasure. Who checks you? Enjoy this pleasure. If everything is pleasure, then why you take the counteractive process? Why do you want to kill child? Pleasure? Why do you take contraceptive method if it is pleasure? That is the proof how much rascal they are. Mūḍha nābhijānāti. Try to understand why Kṛṣṇa has spoken so many times, "mūḍhas, māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā." Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, is speaking like that. There must be some meaning. Human civilization means to give relief to the human being, comfortable life, not to repeat the same business like the animals. That is human civilization. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We see practically that only the devotees are somewhat free from anxiety. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. We have little anxieties simply because we have to deal with this rascal world. Otherwise we have no anxiety. But we have taken this mission, to go and approach them, tell them the truth. Therefore we have got little anxiety. Otherwise there is no question of anxiety. Because we are mixing with these rascals*-and we have to do that, who have taken this mission-therefore little anxiety there. That is also not very much. But you must know, the whole world is full of rascals and fools. That is not exaggeration. Eh? Or you have got different opinion? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Hm? What do you think? Do you agree? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are mūḍhas. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Our verdict is final: "All rascals and fools." Therefore, when I ask these rascals, "Any question?" Stopped. (laughter) "Come on, any question?" What they will question? I challenge them, "Any question?" They know that "We have been proved as rascals." Yesterday, last night, I told that the aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā*-vādāṁś: [Bg. 2.11] "This is the position of everyone. Everyone is fool, rascal. He does not know what is the real problem of life." Nobody said that "Why you are calling everyone rascals?" In Montreal some Bengali gentleman said, "Swamiji, you are using very strong word, 'fools and rascals.' Can it be explained otherwise?" And "No, this is the only word, that you are all rascals and fools. This is the only word to be used." (laughter) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You once said that anyone who has a material body is a rascal. *Prabhupāda: A rascal, that's all. And they are trying to maintain this body, although the rascals know it will not be maintained. You cannot. You are not allowed to maintain, neither you'll be allowed. Still, they are trying. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Which is impossible, cannot be allowed, and they are trying for it. How this body can be maintained? "Yes, we are trying. Now the disease has been reduced. Now they are living more days." These are their foolish. They will never say "No, it is impossible." Still, they will support their rascal endeavors. (aside:) No, that's all right. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is another sign of their rascaldom, that they don't accept that all of their endeavors to maintain the body will be defeated. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are seeing, experiencing. History never says that any man has become immortal, even Hiranyakasipu, and what to speak of these small demons. A great demon like Hiranyakasipu, he could not, and what to speak of these tiny demons? One kick is sufficient to kill them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They never say that. Prabhupāda: The European lady will never take a burden on head like this, but Indians, they do. Even respectable family woman, they also carry on the head. You will find many Gujarati. Simple living is natural. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How is it that the Europeans especially, they have become the vanguard of rascal culture? Prabhupāda: Because they are rākṣasas. They are eating meat and drinking wine and illicit sex. Rākṣasa civilization. Hiraṇyakaśipu means... Hiraṇya means gold, and kaśipu means soft bed. To learn, this is rākṣasa civilization. They are searching after soft bed and gold mine, hiraṇya. Devotee (2): We have some guests. Prabhupāda: Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Aiye. How do you know we have come here? Indian (3): Well, Kṛṣṇa's grace showed me you were here. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. That... Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) If any question, we are discussing so many things. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Do you have any questions? Indian (3): This... We've arrived from home, you know. We were at the temple and Bhattasauri says, "Swamiji has gone for a walk at the golf course," so it was quite convenient to find us here. We just rushed up. I said, "Let me rush in to join the walk." Prabhupāda: So you can repeat what I have spoken. They can hear. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kṛṣṇa, He describes so... Prabhupāda: No, you can play this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Okay, play back. Comes in handy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Eh? (Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa plays back tape recording:) *Prabhupāda: "They are trying to maintain this body although the rascals know it will not be maintained. You cannot, you are not allowed to maintain, neither you'll be allowed. Still they are trying. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]." Harikeśa: (aside:) The car is there. Prabhupāda: No, we shall walk. (tape recording continues) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People may argue though that without education we can't even read the knowledge that Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is speaking. How to read Bengali or Sanskrit or English or anything like this? Prabhupāda: That is real education. We want that you learn from Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, you learn from Vyāsadeva, you learn from Nārada. But why you are learning from Freud, from Darwin and such rascals? Education means you should learn from a person who is authorized, who is without mistake, without illusion, who does not cheat, just like we are learning from Kṛṣṇa. That is education. And if you learn from rascals and fools, then what is that education? Education means to learn from the learned person. But if you are learning from a rascal and fool, then what is your education? Education required, but we require what is actually education, which is not cheating. But we are being educated, being cheated. We are working for this body, which I am not. Is that education or it is cheating? If you say, "I am taking my interest," I'll say "I am taking water; *I wash daily my shirt and coat." And that, is that knowledge? And what about you? Your food? "I don't care for that. I wash my coat and shirt daily." Is that education? You keep yourself starving and you keep your coat and shirt very cleanse. Is that education? This is going on. Therefore people are restless. He is hungry. What he will do, his cars and this shirt and coat and big building? Why they are committing suicide? Because he is not happy. There is no food for the spirit soul, what he is actually. Is that education? That is not education. So Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is right when he says, jība ke karaye gādhā: "This material education means making people more and more asses." That's all. He is already ass because he's in this material world, and the so*-called material education means keeping him in that condition more and more. Indian (4): So after, when he leaves this body and when he takes rebirth again, Swamiji, then he starts off all over again? Prabhupāda: No, he starts... According to the body he will work. If he enters into the dog's body, he will work as a dog. If he enters in the body of a tree, he will work as the tree: stand up naked without any shame; you cannot protest, your branches will be cut off. So these things are there. What do they know about this science? Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. You have to take a different body. He does not say what kind of body. And you can see by practical experience. There are 8,400,000 different forms of body. You have to enter one of them. That's all. So what you can do? The nature will force you, "Enter this body." It may be a better body or it may be an abominable body, but you have to enter another body. Where is that education that "I'll have to enter another body after death, and let me prepare what kind of body I shall have"? Where is that education? They are blind. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to go back to the temple now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Time is up? Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk if you like. Prabhupāda: No, what time we have to go? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, we're going to have class at the temple. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) You have got car? Indians: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you can come to the temple. Indian (5): Yes, we are coming. Prabhupāda: This appears to be nim tree like, but it is not. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Should we take one branch? Prabhupāda: No, no. How long you are all in South Africa? Indian: All were born here. Prabhupāda: You were born, all of you? Indian: We're born in India. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (walking sounds, car doors closing) (in the car) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The karmī and the jñānī are both within the material world. Is the jñānī considered more elevated than the karmī? Prabhupāda: No, jñānī is on the margin between material and spiritual world. He is trying to understand what is spiritual world or spiritual life, what is material, that much. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So he is better off than the karmī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmī has no knowledge, what is the aim of life, but jñānī is understanding that "I have executed material activities so long, but I have not become happy. Then what is the reason?" That is jñānī. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. "What is real life?" But because they are not trained up as bhakta, they come to the conclusion of "The impersonal Brahman is the final." That is the defect. So anyway, they are better than the karmīs. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the jñānīs are very rare though, aren't they? Prabhupāda: Eh? No, bhaktas are rare. [break] ...churches here? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is a school, convent school. There is one church here, another church across the street, a third over there and a fourth down the street from where we live. This church has a big food program, but they sell it. They don't distribute freely. They have about twelve vans. Congregational food... All these garages. They have vans, a big truck. Prabhupāda: But they eat meat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, they distribute meat too. Prabhupāda: Their program is for the poor? No. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Generally. I think it's mostly money*-making. (end) Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...cutting trees. Prabhupāda: Because they are also living beings, so you cannot take their life unnecessarily. You are responsible. You can cut trees when they are dried like this; otherwise not. [break] ...cutting trees indiscriminately for manufacturing paper, some bundles of papers nobody reads. Every day... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They throw away. Prabhupāda: They are publishing hundreds of thousands of copies for wasting, and for that paper, it requires so many lives. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No one has ever considered such things before. *Prahupada: No..., where is the man? All animals. Man will think. One with knowledge, he will think. And what the animal will think? Anyone who is not a devotee, he is animal. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. The big animal is being worshiped by a small animal. That's all. A lion in the forest is worshiped by the small animals. So does it mean the lion is not animal? He is also animal. So similarly, all these leaders, these scientists, these philosophers, they are applauded by the small animals, but they are also animals, big animal, that's all. The test is whether he understands the spirit soul different from the body. If he does not understand he is animal, that's all. Maybe big animal, that is a different thing. Big or small, animal is animal. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So anyone who is not aware of the spirit soul... *Prabhupāda: He is animal. That's all. Sa eva gokharaḥ. That is the verdict of the śāstra. Yasyātmā buddhiḥ kuṇape tri*-dhātuke: [SB 10.84.13] "Anyone who considers this body made of three elements-kapha, pitta, vayu-as self," yasyātm-buddhi kuṇape tri-dhātuke svadhiḥ kalatradiṣu, "and the accidental combination of family members, they are own kinsmen," sva-dhiḥ kala..., bhauma idyadhiḥ, "and the land in which they are born, that is worshipable..." That is nationalism, so-called nationalism. Bhauma idyadhiḥ yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile: "And going to the pilgrimage, taking the water as very important," yat tīrtha buddhiḥ na karhicij janeṣv abhijaneṣu, "and they do not care for the learned, experienced saintly person," sa eva gokharaḥ, "such person is nothing but cows and asses." That's all. If one does not know that he is not this body, he is different from body, so that sort of knowledge is there amongst the dogs. So why he should be distinguished from the dog? The basic knowledge is the same. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One who has such knowledge... What is the position of one who has such theoretical knowledge but doesn't apply it? Prabhupāda: Not theoretical. Practical. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What happens if someone doesn't apply it practically? What is their position? Are they higher than the person in ignorance? Prabhupāda: No, what do you mean by theoretical knowledge? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like so many... In Indian philosophy everyone knows that there is ātmā, but still, people continue to act on the gross bodily platform for sense enjoyment. *Prabhupāda: Then, if he seriously understood, then he will act on ātmā. And otherwise, simply understanding, that is impersonal understanding, Brahman only understanding. But what is after that, Brahman knowledge, that they do not know. So they are almost as good as the animals. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. Therefore they are not happy. Simply theoretical knowledge that "I am Brahman," that's all. Indian man (1): They know the knowledge but they don't act according to that. *Prabhupāda: Therefore they are not happy. Otherwise one who knows "I am Brahman," brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā*-he will be happy always. That has become fashion. "Table chair brahma-jñāna," sitting on the table-chair, smoking and talking of Brahman. "Armchair brahma-jñāna." Although Kṛṣṇa is giving information, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu... mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param [Bg. 18.54], so they do not make further progress, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param, to achieve that platform of bhakti. Therefore it is as good as no knowledge. These will be the symptoms of brahma-jñāna, na śocati na kāṅ..., samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. If they have got brahma-jñāna, then why they should distinguish? Just like in our country, Mahatma Gandhi, so he is designated as mahātmā, but why he was against the Englishmen, to drive them away? That is not brahma-jñāna. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. They are as good. As these white people, they do not give any chance to the other people, so similarly, Mahatma Gandhi also, he wanted that "These white people should go away." So what is the distinction? The same knowledge. "You want me ... to drive me away; I want to drive you away." So what is the distinction between you and me? The one dog is barking at another dog; another dog is barking, another dog. That's all. Where is knowledge? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a very interesting view. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is the change of understanding? It is natural. If you treat me as enemy, I treat you as enemy. That is natural. But brahma*-jñāna means samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, that no distinction, "Everyone is Brahman." That is brahma-jñāna. What was the movement here of Mahatma Gandhi? Indian man (1): There was a movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that movement? Indian man (1): They used to call it... Indian man (2): Satyagraha movement. Indian man (1): Nonviolence. Indian man (2): Fighting for the truth. Prabhupāda: What was the truth? Indian man (1): There was discriminatory laws against the Indians, trying to let them carry certain documents to identify that they are foreigners and all that type of things, not allowed to go in certain places where other people were allowed to go, and all those kind of laws, discriminatory laws, especially for the Indians. So he fought against them for the truth that everybody is equal in the eyes of God. Prabhupāda: So? But it was not successful. Indian man (1): Partly it was, because then they had to listen to him, what actually the grievances were. First they were not prepared to talk to him. They didn't want him to know anything. Then they compromised, and from then onwards.... Still it has been carried on up to now. The laws are there for the Indians. Prabhupāda: Still the Indians have no equal right. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are not allowed to vote here even, or have any representatives in Parliament. Indian man (1): No, nothing whatsoever. They are grouped up. Especially now within these couple of years. Before there was living in town and all that, but now they are grouped up in their own areas, not supposed to live in town anymore. Prabhupāda: The Indians are driven away. Indian man (1): But there is a change at the moment. We are getting indirect representation in Parliament, and most probably in a matter of twenty, thirty years... (laughter) Promises. Devotee (4): Sounds like the scientists. Indian man (1): Live on a promise. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you're still alive then. Indian man (1): Is that also effected through karma maybe, Swamiji? Prabhupāda: Hm? Indian man (1): Is that also effected through karma maybe? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...the whole, you are getting sufficient food to eat. Indian man (1): Yes, that we are. Prabhupāda: But Indians are not getting that. You are better than the Indians in India. Indian man (1): That's what everybody says who comes from... Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Here I see you are prosperous than in India. You go to the ration shop; you simply find all rejected food grains. Indian man (1): Rejected food grains. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not eatable. No country uses them as food grain, and India, they are selling, a good price. Indian man (1): The people are lazy too, Swamiji. Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian man (1): Don't you think the people are lazy also? Prabhupāda: Well, you are the same Indian. Why you are not lazy here? It is the government's policy or government's management. You see? To become lazy is the recommendation of the śāstra. To become lazy... It is a bad word, "lazy," but actually life means not to work very hard. That is real life. And to work hard for eating, that is animal life, that is not human life. Human life should be very peaceful, without any hard work, and cultivating spiritual knowledge. That is human life, not that, to work hard like hogs and dogs throughout the whole day for find out some stool, where it is. That is not human life. So people are being educated to work very hard. That is not human life. Therefore those who have got money, they build nice bungalow in a secluded place to live peacefully, to become lazy. Is it not? Indian man (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Perfection of life means ultimately you become lazy; you haven't got to work. That is perfection, they say. Otherwise why they get a cottage in a secluded place and live? All these Americans, they go weekend. They leave aside all working, they become tired, hard working, and they go. That is the intention, that you should live peaceful life, not working very hard. That is human life. Huh? Otherwise why they go outside the city at the weekend? Why do they go? Hm? Indian man (1): They want rest, I suppose. They want rest. Prabhupāda: So that means lazy. Indian man (1): No. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rest means lazy; you don't work. Indian man (1): If one works five days a week, you rest for two... Prabhupāda: That is another thing. You have to work to become lazy. (laughter) That is another thing. But the goal is to become lazy. You work five days very hard just to become lazy for two days. That's all. So if you have got means to become seven days lazy, you'll prefer it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But I think people would... Most people would go crazy if they didn't have any work. *Prabhupāda: No, that means their life is not properly conducted. And therefore the word laziness has come. Laziness is not actually the word. Laziness means minimizing the bodily labor and engaged in spiritual work. If you ask people, "Please come to our temple," who is coming? Because he says, "I have no time." But we are not working hard. So real aim of life is to... In German, I think, or somewhere there is classification: "Lazy intelligent, busy intelligent, lazy fool, and busy fool." So at the present moment (laughs) the whole world is full of busy fools. But the first*-class man, he is lazy intelligent. Lazy and intelligent, that is first-class man. And second-class man, busy intelligent. And third class means lazy fool and fourth class means busy fool. When the fools are busy... Just like nowadays they are busy but they are fools. Like monkey, he is very busy. You see? And they prefer to be generation of monkey, busy fool. That's all. Fools, when he is busy, he is simply creating havoc. That's all. Better... Lazy fool is better than him because he will not create so much harm, but this busy fool will simply create harm. And first class-man is lazy intelligent. He knows the value of life, and soberly he is thinking. Just like all our great saintly persons. They were living in the forest, meditation, tapasya, and writing books. All, you will find, lazy intelligent. They are first-class men. Indian man (1): Not like the monkey jumping from one ... Prabhupāda: Busy fool, what is the value? He is fool, and he is busy. So nowadays the education is to make busy fool. That's all. Indian man (1): About the busy intelligent? Prabhupāda: The second class. Indian man (1): How does he behave? *Prabhupāda: Busy intelligent means at least whatever he is doing, there is some meaning, busy intelligent. And lazy intelligent means he is doing higher things. Lazy intelligent means brāhmaṇa, and busy intelligent means kṣatriya. So the cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām [Bg. 4.13]. The society should be divided into four classes. The śūdras, they are busy fools. Therefore they are to be guided. They are to be guided. If there are, hundred workers are there, then one leader must be there to give the direction: "Why you are doing this? Why you don't do this?" Otherwise he'll create havoc. Busy fool. So the whole world is full of busy fools. That's all. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find that for brāhmaṇa, śamo damaḥ satyaṁ śaucaṁ titikṣa ārjavam, jñānam vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma sva... [Bg. 18.42]. There is no recommendation that "You work hard day and night." The brahminical qualification is controlling the senses, controlling the mind, truthful, clean, knows everything nicely, practical application of the knowledge, full faith in śāstra and Bhagavān. Jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. These things are recommended, not that a brāhmaṇa should become very busy whole day and night for getting food. So śāstra says, "There is no use of becoming busy for your food. Food is there already." Food is already there. He'll get his food. That is arrangement by God. But they are busy fool. They do not understand the God's arrangement. Only for food they are busy whole day and night like cats and dogs. Now this land is there. You can... Everyone can grow food if he works for two months. Everyone can grow his whole year's foodstuff. There is so much land. But no, they'll not grow food. They will grow hammer, manufacturing it. You see? Tire tube, then atom bomb, then this and that. They are busy. They are busy fool. Actually they are fools, and they are very busy. Everyone is busy. There are so many parts in the motorcar, three thousand part, and they are busy in manufacturing three thousand parts of motor parts. So everyone is busy in producing things unwanted. But they have created a society in such a way that they have to do that. Indian man (1): Otherwise they think that they not economically progressing. *Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that economical progressing? So that means busy fool. Fool, they do not know how to satisfy the economic problem. That is recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: [Bg. 3.14] You grow food grains. Then all economic question... But why you are not producing food grains? Why you are producing iron stools and instruments and motor and tire and collecting petrol far away from Arabia? That is... Kṛṣṇa never says that "You do all this nonsense." He said, "Grow food grains." Why don't you do that? That means fools. After all, you have to eat. So you are not busy in growing your food, but you are busy in producing tire tubes, motor cars, stools and instruments. Then how you will get your food? Where is your economic? First economic is, first necessity, you must eat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But with the tire tubes and nuts and bolts they can make a tractor. And the tractor can help produce food, they think, much faster. Prabhupāda: No, that is waste of energy. Because you are eating the bulls, therefore you require a tractor. Otherwise you don't kill the bulls. This animal will do the business of tractor. Devotee (4): It will work. Prabhupāda: But you want to eat them, so you must find out... Indian man (1): Some other means. Prabhupāda: Replacement. That's it. Devotee (4): But man has to progress. Prabhupāda: What is that nonsense progress? To become busy fool? That is progress? Do you think it is progress to become busy fool? This is not progress. The progress means lazy intelligent, that he will not have to work but he will get all the comforts automatically. That is wanted. That is progress. Actually nobody wants to work but he is obliged to work because his necessities are not sufficiently met. Therefore he has to work. He has created such society that he has to work hard. Indian man (1): Some of them wants to sit in the office and order the directors, "Do this, do this." They want to be on the head. They want to have peace there, but while they are sitting on the chair, they haven't got any peace. Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (1): So they got to order everybody. That's what I believe. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He has to tax his brain. Kṛṣṇa has given advice, everything: "Divide the society into four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra." And then the brāhmaṇas should give nice advice, teacher. The kṣatriyas should govern, and the vaiśyas should produce food and give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, then trade. And śūdras should help, worker. Here I see the Europeans, they are working as the kṣatriyas, government, and the Indians they are working as vaiśya, and the Africans, they are as śūdras. But where is brāhmaṇa? There is no brāhmaṇa; *therefore it is not good. It will suffer. And if they accept, the government men accept our advice and do accordingly*-we don't want government post, but we can give good advice how to govern-then everyone will be happy. That they are losing. There is no good head. They are simply thinking in their animal way, "Why the Indians should come here?" And the Indians are, "Why whites are neglecting us?" This is going on because there is no good engagement. So this is essential, that the society should be divided into four classes of men: the first-class men-lazy intelligent; *second*-class men-busy intelligent; *and third*-class men-lazy fool; *and fourth*-class men-busy fool. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But we find śūdras even amongst the European class here, even though they are in the governing position. *Prabhupāda: No, we are not speaking "Europeans, Americans, Indians." We are speaking "human being." We never say... Bhagavad*-gītā never says that the Europeans should be the first-class men and Indian should be the last... It never says. That is training. Just like engineering college. The European also can become engineer, and the Indian also can become engineer. There is no discrimination. Similarly, this division of society, that the whole human society, it should be recruited and trained up... Then society will be all right. Otherwise not. Indian man (1): Is this still possible, Swamiji? Is there still possibility that that can happen? Prabhupāda: At any moment, provided you agree. But you do not agree. Nobody is prepared to become a brāhmaṇa. Everyone wants to become a śūdra. This is the modern civilization. Indian man (1): But can a person become a brāhmaṇa? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Why not? Indian man (1): Doesn't it depend... Prabhupāda: It is training. How they are become brāhmaṇa? According to śāstra, they are coming from mleccha, yavana. How they have become brāhmaṇa? More than brāhmaṇa. But they are abiding by the rules. You see? They are accustomed to eat meat from the very birth. They have given up. And if we request Indians, they will not give up, although their forefathers never ate meat. *Indian man (1): Does it say somewhere in the Bhagavad*-gītā that we shouldn't eat meat? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Ahara-śuddhi. There are three kinds, four kinds of ahara: sattvika, rājasika, tamasika. Everything is there. The classification of ahara. Meat is tamasikāhara, fourth class. It is not first class. Indian man (1): When the Aryan civilization was there in the past, Swamiji, were there also such kind of economic problems? *Prabhupāda: There was no economic problem. Every time... Always this system is followed: cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām [Bg. 4.13]. And it is the duty of the government to see that this classification is properly being executed. That is the duty of the government. Secular state means that as you like, you can become. But if you claim to become a brāhmaṇa, you must act as a brāhmaṇa, not that you act as a śūdra, bangi, and also you are brāhmaṇa. No. That will not be allowed by the government. Indian man (1): The purity must be there. Prabhupāda: [break] Yes. In the whole world you won't find qualified brāhmaṇas. And they are required for guiding the human society. So therefore the human society is in chaotic condition. There is no guidance. The śūdras, they make things by vote. And what they'll vote? They're all rascals. What is the value of their votes? So that is going on all over the world. Fools and rascals they vote, and another rascal is selected. And after some time-"Oh, he is not suitable. Get him down," Nixon, and replace another fool, rascal. That's all. Indian man (1): That is continuously going on. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Going on. The democracy means the selector, the elector, they are all fools and rascals. So how he will select a person who is not rascal? Indian man (1): Is it possible that every man's life is directed by God, and you're born to do certain things, and you come to be prime minister or something? Prabhupāda: Yes, there is something like that. But I am talking of, if you depend on God, then why do you keep elections? You are opportunist. Sometimes you take shelter of God and sometimes of your election power. If you are so firm believer in God, then why election? Let God elect. Why you take part in election? Huh? Let God elect the prime minister. Why you are busy in giving vote? [break] God elected Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Hm? His plan was that Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira should be king, not Duryodhana. So He killed all the Duryodhana's party and selected Yudhiṣṭhira: "Sit down here." That is God's election. So why you elect? Depend on God. Indian man (1): And that comes through lack of spiritual knowledge, Swamiji? Prabhupāda: Yes, no knowledge. No spiritual knowledge means he is animal. That's all. Sa eva gokharaḥ. This is the final verdict. One who has no spiritual knowledge, he is no better than these cows and dogs. That's all. Therefore guidance of the brāhmaṇa required. Why the brāhmaṇas are selected to guide? Because they have got full vijñāna, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam, therefore. Indian man (1): It is very necessary for the brāhmaṇas. We must have brāhmaṇas in the society. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. You are very intelligent. Therefore we are creating some brāhmaṇas. We are not creating the busy fools. No. Devotee (5): Does that mean that the more one gets control over his senses, he becomes more lazy intelligent? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. One who is servant of his senses, what is intelligence? That is dog's intelligence. As soon as he sees one lady dog, and ten dogs come here and begin to smell vagina. Is that intelligence? So the human society is like that. They're smelling the vagina of the girls, that's all. Everyone is doing that. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the activities of the lazy intelligent are jñāna*-vijñāna? *Prabhupāda: Jñāna*-vijñānam, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not sleep. Not sleep. *Prabhupāda: No. This is the term used, "lazy," but real term is dhīra. The Sanskrit word is dhīra. And everything... Just like high*-court judge, he is dhīra. He is... Before giving judgment, he thinks three days, silently. That is your... That is not laziness. His brain is working how to give nice judgment. That is required. But because we do not understand what is dhīra, we think that "This man is sitting idly and drawing four thousand rupees." Because we know, "Unless one is active like dog, running there, running there, he is not a busy man." And he cannot appreciate the work of the author, the work of the high-court judge. They think they are lazy. Therefore he's using the lazy, but lazy and intelligent. Otherwise he is not lazy; he is dhīra. The word is dhīra. Dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Unless one is dhīra, one cannot understand that there is soul within the body. [break] Kṛṣṇa uses this word, dhīras tatra na muhyati. One has to become dhīra, sober, silent. Then he can understand. Not these busy dogs. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But Arjuna is fighting for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, no... You try one point. Arjuna's fighting is... That is all right. So what is your question? The subject matter was different. Now you jump over to another. Why? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Indian man (1): So everything is in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Everything is there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. This understanding, that soul is different from the body, it is meant for the dhīra, not for the adhīra. There are two classes men, dhīra and adhīra. So adhīra *means busy fool, and dhīra means lazy intelligent. But our, this movement is meant both for the dhīra and adhīra. Adhīra. We can make them really human beings. Never mind he is dhīra or adhīra. It is so nice movement. Dhīrādhīra. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana*-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī dhīrādhīra priyau. It is very pleasing both for the dhīras and adhīras. Why not? What we are doing? We invite people, "Please come here. Chant, dance, and take prasāda." So both the dhīras and adhīras, they will be attracted. Dhīrādhīra priya. [break] You cannot make everyone dhīra; that is not possible. There is necessity of adhīra also. That is also... But it should be guided by the dhīra. Indian man (1): Adhīra should be guided by the dhīra. Prabhupāda: Yes. Adhīra should be guided by the dhīra. Then it will be all right. [break] Unnecessarily. Indian man (1): The whole week they are very, very busy. Now today, Sunday, at least they think by playing golf, they can relax. Prabhupāda: That is also another business. So this Sunday should have been utilized for understanding God. But they have no knowledge. Because they are fools, so again busy in pushing on a ball. That's all. Harikeśa: We should go quickly. They're not going to stop. Indian man (1): They won't stop. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They've already both hit the ball. Now walk three hundred yards and hit it again. Prabhupāda: Busy fools, creating foolishness, and this is aristocracy; a rich man's engagement. Indian man (1): Yes. He can afford all this. Indian man (3): So how long this thing will continue now, Swamiji, the materialistic progress, the way they are carrying on today? Prabhupāda: If you don't take advice from Kṛṣṇa, it will continue. You take advice of Kṛṣṇa; it will be all right. The disease is there; the treatment is there. If you take treatment, the disease will disappear. If you don't take, the disease will continue and you will die. That's all. Indian man (1): So eventually destruction can come to this earth? Prabhupāda: It is already come, but because you are not intelligent, you do not see it. It is already come. Who is happy? (end) Morning Walk -- October 20, 1975, Johannesburg Prabhupāda: They kept dead body frozen? Harikeśa: It hasn't become very popular. Prabhupāda: Why? Why? The scientists' failure? Harikeśa: Maybe people don't believe it. Prabhupāda: No, it is made by the scientists. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...behind the frozen body was that if someone had an incurable disease, they thought that they could suspend the life by freezing it, and then, when they found the cure for the disease, they would unfreeze him or thaw him out and cure him of his disease so that he could live again. Prabhupāda: And these childish activities are taken as scientific advancement. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is there a Vedic definition of science? *Prabhupāda: Vijñāna. Jñāna*-vijñāna. [break] ...not this science, experimental. That is not science. Vedic knowledge is science. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So there is no experimental science in Vedic culture. Prabhupāda: Experimental science is condemned. What you will make, ex... You are imperfect. What is the value of your experiment? Therefore it is rejected. Whatever you'll do, that is imperfect. First of all you become perfect; then you make experiment. But you are... You remain imperfect, and you making experiment. What is the value of it? [break] ...is no experimental knowledge. All established truth. That is vijñāna, or science. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Established truth. Prabhupāda: Yes. The sun rises on the eastern side; that is established truth. You cannot change it. And that is vijñāna. Man dies. This is established truth. You cannot make any change by experimental knowledge. This is vijñāna. Nṛpa nirnita: "It is already settled." In the Vedic knowledge there is no such thing as laboratory or experiment, discovery, nothing. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People blindly would accept that cow dung was purified without having to test it. Prabhupāda: Yes. But you make experiment; you will find it all right. So we save time. [break] ...no experiment. [break] ...experiment has become successful? Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they've cured certain diseases by experimentation. Prabhupāda: That is success? You stop disease. What is this, "cure disease"? Malaria, if it is not here, it is somewhere there. And if I am not suffering from malaria, I am suffering from syphilis. So what is this cure, experiment? Disease must be there. So you stop it. Then it is success. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it is not possible to stop disease. Prabhupāda: No. How it is possible? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it worthwhile to try to prolong life? Prabhupāda: It is also condemned. Prolonged life... Suppose you live hundred years and a tree lives five thousand years, ten thousand years. Then what is the use of prolonging life, life like this? Is that very good life? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Standing in one place for ten thousand years? Why should you prolong your life? For suffering? You are suffering, that is your problem, so what is the use of prolonging your life? This is foolishness. What do you gain by prolonging life if you are suffering? Stop suffering. That is wanted. How you can stop suffering? With suffering, prolonging life, what is the benefit? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just means more, longer suffering. Prabhupāda: Yes. And even if you prolong life, how long you'll prolong? There are trees. They are thousand times prolonging than your life. In... What is called? San Francisco, the Golden... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Redwood trees. Prabhupāda: Redwood trees. One redwood, already seven thousand years old, they told me. So what is the benefit, seven thousand years standing in one place, very long? Hm? What is the benefit? You are trying to prolong life. Very good idea. But what is the use of prolonging life while suffering? One side, you are trying to prolong life; the other side, for acute suffering, one is committing suicide. So why this contradictory proposal? Harikeśa: Well, only some people commit suicide. As far as I'm concerned, I'm very happy. I have my car, my air conditioner... Prabhupāda: That means you are fool number one. That means you are fool number one. As soon as you say, "I am happy," it is immediately proved that you are a rascal, fool number one. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But everyone is afraid of death. They don't like the idea of dying. Put if off. Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore, you cure that first of all; then prolong life that there will be no death. Then you prolong life is... Make some understand. Can go this side? Harikeśa: So it's not possible that anyone's happy? There is no possibility of anyone being happy. Prabhupāda: No. One who thinks he is happy, he is number one fool. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is searching after material happiness. Prabhupāda: Yes. But there is no happiness. Harikeśa: What about if one is in the mode of goodness? Maybe one or two... Prabhupāda: Mode of goodness... If he thinks that he is happy, then he is fool. The mode of goodness means one must know that we cannot be happy here. That is mode of goodness. And if he thinks, "I am happy," then he is not in mode of goodness. He's in darkness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So everyone at present is trying to become happy by this or that activity. Prabhupāda: They are fools, rascals. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So if everyone accepts that there is no happiness at all to be found in this world... Prabhupāda: Then they are intelligent. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Then what to do? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Tad*-vijñānārtham... Therefore you go to guru. Go to Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (1): Do I have to join your movement to be happy? Can I just take Kṛṣṇa consciousness outside your movement? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): So there is no possibility of me being Kṛṣṇa conscious outside your movement. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be developed with devotees. Alone it is difficult. Devotee (1): If I start my own community outside the movement? Prabhupāda: Yes. The community means many devotees. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So you were saying, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if there is no happiness and one recognizes it, then he goes to guru. Prabhupāda: Then he must... Just like Arjuna submitted to Kṛṣṇa because he was disturbed. So that is the point where one must approach a guru, how to become happy. That is intelligence. Athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now inquire about real happiness." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So one who is looking for material happiness... Prabhupāda: He's a fool. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...it is very difficult for them to approach guru. Prabhupāda: He is a fool, rascal, blind. Where there is happiness not possible, he is trying to find out happiness. Therefore he is a fool. Which is not possible, if one tries for it, then he is fool. Harikeśa: But I look around and I see everybody else enjoying. Prabhupāda: Because you are fool, you are seeing like that. That is the proof that you are a fool. Harikeśa: They all tell me what a great time... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15], and you are finding out happiness. Then how much fool you are. The best authority says that "This is a place of suffering," and you are finding out happiness. So how much fool you are, it is very difficult to estimate. (laughter) Therefore Vedic knowledge is perfect. Now just like there is signboard, "No admission." So who is the fool, create some trouble by entering into it? He's a fool. If there is signboard, "There is no admission," and if somebody enters to create some trouble, he is not a fool? So Kṛṣṇa says, "There is no happiness," and if somebody searches happiness, he is not a fool? That is... Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness required, that he gets perfect knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. He has no trouble. Kṛṣṇa said, "There is no happiness," and if somebody thinks, "All right, although Kṛṣṇa said, let me try for it," then he is a fool. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Similarly, they say that they can cure disease, but it's impossible. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? The disease is suffering, and this place is suffering, so where is the question of curing disease? Kṛṣṇa consciousness means intelligence. We are guided by Kṛṣṇa, so there is no trouble. Everything is all right. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. And as soon as you make experiment like fools and rascal, then you are doomed. Harikeśa: "Well, my guru, Meher Baba, tells me, 'Don't worry. Be happy.' " Prabhupāda: Then he is another fool, another rascal, mūḍha. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He didn't even speak. He didn't speak for so many years. Prabhupāda: Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This Meher Baba. Prabhupāda: Oh, he was your guru? (laughs) Harikeśa: He says, "Don't worry. Be happy, and just love me." Prabhupāda: Just see. And he died of motor accident. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He died in motor accident? Harikeśa: Yes. He was killed by a car. Prabhupāda: "Don't worry, I am going to die by motor accident. Don't worry. Don't worry. I am going to die by motor accident." All these rasals, they have misled the whole world. What is this raised ground? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is where they hit the golf ball from, raised up. This is the men's teeing part. And the ladies' teeing part, they tee off from here, little bit shorter. Prabhupāda: No equal right. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No equal rights. Harikeśa: Well, all the swamis are saying that all you have to do is just be happy. It's just a state of being. You just have to think happiness. Prabhupāda: Yes. That we also say, but you must know how to get happiness. That is required. Happiness is the aim of everyone. But how to get happiness, permanent, that is knowledge. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is a devotee seeking mental happiness as well? Is the devotee searching after... Prabhupāda: A devotee does not seek anything except service of Kṛṣṇa. He does not seek anything separate. He simply wants to serve Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Anyābhilāṣita śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Making zero all other desires, that, he is devotee. If he is going to Kṛṣṇa for some happiness, he is not a devotee. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...Vedic culture, there is descriptions of many demigods, and the karmīs, they would generally worship these different demigods for material benefits. Why didn't they just try to get the material benefits without worshiping the demigods, like they are doing today? Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Today people are making money and trying to enjoy material life... Prabhupāda: Who is making money? Who is making money? Harikeśa: The government. It is printing it up. Prabhupāda: Do you think everyone is making money? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it's a big illusion? It's a big illusion? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone simply working hard like asses. That's all. This is their happiness. Just like the hog, he's working very hard to eat stool, and he is thinking happy. He is getting fatty. Do you think to work hard day and night and eat stool is happiness? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: But he is thinking; therefore he is getting fat. You generally find the pigs are fatty because they think, "Oh, I am very happy." Yes. One man gets fatty when he thinks that "I am very happy." You know that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: This is psychology. When he thinks, "I am very happy," he gets fatty. Harikeśa: But if I think I'm happy, isn't that enough? *Prabhupāda: They think. That is another thing. But you do not know what is happiness. These rascals, they do not think that what is happiness. Suppose I have arranged for so*-called happiness. Then I am going to die also. Who will enjoy this? Harikeśa: But I'm not worried about it. Prabhupāda: That is the proof that you are a rascal. "Fools rush in where angels dare not." That is the proof. The hog is thinking, "I am very happy." Therefore he is hog. He is not a human being. Hog proves that he is hog by thinking that "I am very happy. I am getting fatty." [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...suffer. Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. That's a fact. So why is it that people are thinking they are happy? Prabhupāda: That I have repeatedly said. Therefore, because they are thinking like that, therefore they are rascals. That is the proof. There is no happiness; still, he is thinking, "I am happy." That is the proof that he's a rascal. [break] Harikeśa: Well, we can admit that we're not happy all the time, but what is the meaning of happiness without distress? If there's no distress, how can I be happy? Prabhupāda: So that is material knowledge. In order to taste happiness, you have to suffer. That is material happiness. And happiness, pure, is spiritual happiness. Here, in order to enjoy happiness, you have to suffer; then you can taste. Therefore that is not real happiness. [break] Harikeśa: A sandtrap. This is where the ball goes in and it's very difficult to hit it out of there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Harikeśa: So you're not supposed to hit it in there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Harikeśa: It makes it more difficult. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes they hit a golf ball, Śrīla Prabhupāda, two hundred yards, and it goes into the hole. Prabhupāda: The same thing. In order to feel the happiness of playing, he has to go in this way. It is unhappiness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Such standard of religion the Western countries are not used to. Prabhupāda: Where is religion in Western countries? There is no religion. All bogus thing. Religion means to surrender to God. Then where is God, and whom to surrender? They surrender to senses, that's all. So unless there is God, what is the meaning of religion? That is not religion. They have created something, civilized human society. There must be some religion. Just like aristocracy means he must have a good dog, that's all. There is no religion in the world except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All bogus. Harikeśa: What is the Pope doing, then? (laughter) Prabhupāda: He's another big bogus man. The Pope's assistant died in the prostitute's house. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Paris. Harikeśa: The Pope comes out on his balcony, and thousands of people cheer and scream. Prabhupāda: The same thing, that small animals praising the big animals, that's all. At least they say something about God. They are not zero, but they have no clear conception of God. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But everyone is thinking that their religion is the best. Even the Christian may be ignorant, even the Jew may be ignorant, anyone*-doesn't matter-they're thinking that theirs is the best. Prabhupāda: That is the proof that everyone is fool. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. First of all... Therefore we have to understand from Bhāgavata that what is real religion. Real religion means love of Godhead. So instead of love of Godhead, the love of doghead is increasing. So where is religion? Everybody should keep a dog and serve him, and where is God? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they think that God is in the other world, so that in this world we can serve our wife and family, and when we go to the other world we'll serve God. Prabhupāda: Then God is separated from this world. How much imperfect knowledge it is. God has created this world, and He has nothing to do with. Just see. They say God created this world, but He has nothing to do with it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a very imperfect understanding. Prabhupāda: [break] ...you were with Meher Baba? Harikeśa: No, I was never with Meher Baba. (laughter) I just bring up all these points just so you can defeat them. I was with Maharishi. Prabhupāda: Maharishi? Oh. You got his mantra? How much you paid for that? *Harikeśa: Thirty*-five dollars. (laughter) Prabhupāda: And what was the mantra? Harikeśa: "Aing." Prabhupāda: "Aing"? That's all? Harikeśa: That's all. And they told me, "Never tell anybody else, 'cause if you tell somebody else the whole thing is ruined." Prabhupāda: Oh, you are also ruined? No, he is also ruined? No? Harikeśa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Everything ruined means he also ruined. Harikeśa: For you. Prabhupāda: No. Yes, that Maharsi Baba. Because he gave the mantra, so if you disclose it, everything is ruined including himself. He is also ruined. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He can't sell any more mantras. Harikeśa: When I joined the movement I met many other devotees who also had mantras. So I said, "What were your mantras?" They were telling us we all had different mantras. And everybody had the same mantras. It was the same thing. Everyone had the same thing. Prabhupāda: Just see how he was cheating you. Indian man (2): I purchased mine.(?) Prabhupāda: This is such a great cheater, and he has opened university? Just see. Harikeśa: I used to ask, "What is the goal of all this?" And they would always say, "You can't ask that now. You won't understand. In the future we'll tell you." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "After we have your money." Harikeśa: They keep it very mystical so that you keep thinking in the future you'll get something. Prabhupāda: The same as the scientists, same. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Prabhupāda, by your mercy we've been able to see that the whole world is simply cheaters and cheated. Prabhupāda: That's all. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eucalyptus trees? Prabhupāda: This is eucalyptus. Harikeśa: Not like in San Francisco, though, Los Angeles. Once they gave the Maharishi four big pills of LSD. Prabhupāda: Who? Harikeśa: His disciples gave him, Maharishi, four big pills of LSD. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maharishi? Harikeśa: Yes. And he just stood there and said nothing happened. So everybody said, "This is proof that he's already there." Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: Because he just stood there and said, "Nothing is happening to me," everybody has figured that he is already there. Prabhupāda: "There" means where? Harikeśa: At the ultimate. Prabhupāda: Hell. (laughter) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. [break] Anyone who is thinking that they're happy is simply a rascal. [break] Prabhupāda: ...saying the black man is not allowed to marry a white woman? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no. Neither vice versa also. There is no intermarriage permitted here. (end) Morning Walk -- October 21, 1975, Johannesburg Prabhupāda: Nonsense. [break] Harikeśa: Well, they have a saying that "Laws are for being broken." Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: "Laws are for being broken." Prabhupāda: That is intelligence. If you can break laws, that is intelligence. So many laws. So which way we shall go? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] We can go this way, straight. It goes around the park, around the lake. Usually the mother and the father, or at least the mother, they stay pretty close by. Prabhupāda: It is double zero? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a z missing. Actually "Zoo Lake" it is called. Prabhupāda: There are many zoos. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just see. They do not check their population. How many? About one dozen? No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ten. Eleven. [break] Prabhupāda: ...He used to collect all these things for guru's cooking. Kṛṣṇa went to collect with Sudāmā Vipra, and all of a sudden, there was cloud and rain, and there was too much water, and they lived upon a tree for the whole night. Then Sāndīpani Muni, other students, came and rescued them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now we have to collect to pay the electricity bill. Prabhupāda: These things are wasted. It can be utilized. The children, they'll gladly collect it. It will be like their sports. All the children will come and collect. Just see. Their energy is utilized, the nature's gift is utilized, and there is no expenditure. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Such a nice arrangment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why they should charge for education? They'll not cut the tree. The dry branches or dead tree, they'll take the wood for utilization. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk down this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] ...parents who would give up their children to gurukula, they would never see them for about ten years? *Prabhupāda: Never see. Ten years? Twenty*-five years. They may go and see, give some gifts to the guru. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Western countries they criticize our gurukula that "This is inhuman, people sending their children away at such an early age, not seeing them." Prabhupāda: And to kill, that is very human. Rascal. Kick them upon their face. You rascal, you are talking of morality, rascal, you go to hell. Your place is hell. "Devil citing scripture." You are not... You are so shameless that you do not be ashamed to speak like that. You are so shameless. Your civilization is so shameless. You are killing child in the womb, and you are talking "inhumanity." Just see. We have to deal with such fools and rascals. Harikeśa: But they say the child in the womb is not living. They say it's not life yet. Only after it takes birth. *Prabhupāda: That is said by you. You, the tenth-class rascal, you say like that. No sane man says like that. Because you are a tenth-class rascal-you have no knowledge*-you say like that. They are... The so-called scientists, they are tenth-class rascals. Harikeśa: Until the child is moving there is no life. Prabhupāda: Moving, it is not moving? Harikeśa: No. It doesn't move until after seven months. Prabhupāda: Then why the dead child cannot move, rascal? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's developing, it's growing. That's moving also. Prabhupāda: No, no, if moving is not there, then the dead child is also not moving. Why he is not moving again? Harikeśa: I don't understand. Prabhupāda: A dead child comes; it is not moving. But does it come to movement again? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Harikeśa: Oh. Prabhupāda: He is another rascal. He takes so much time to answer. (laughter) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This idea of the "devil citing scripture," Prabhupāda, is very common. Prabhupāda: Devils, all devils. Harikeśa: They wanted to write an article about this for BTG, and everybody was sitting around giving these examples. Prabhupāda: Yes, think over. Write article. If there was no life who is at a certain stage in the womb, wherefrom the movement comes, if there was no life? Harikeśa: They say it develops to the point... Prabhupāda: But why it does not develop in a dead child, rascal? The same child, if it comes out dead, why the movement does not develop? Harikeśa: Well, that one already developed properly and then died. That child already developed properly. Prabhupāda: No, the process is the same. It was not moving. At a cetain stage it is moving. Similarly, if it is not moving, then wait for a certain stage; it will move. Why it is decomposed? Harikeśa: But that dead child was moving and then died. Prabhupāda: How it became dead, nonsense? The condition is the same, no movement. So how do you say "dead"? Why do you say "dead"? The distinction is it was not moving, and it is now not moving, so why do you call "dead"? In such a foolish society, how people can be happy? Harikeśa: Well, it's the mother's choice to kill the child or not. If the child isn't born yet, it hasn't come to life in the world, so the mother has the responsibility; she can kill it or not because it's her thing, her child, her production, so she can kill it or not. Prabhupāda: So I can kill you; I am your guru. Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Who can say anything? I can kill you. Why police is there? I can say, "He is my disciple. He has fully surrendered. I can kill him." That's all. Will that argument save me from police action? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. The child is so dependent on the mother, if the mother mistreats the opportunity, she also is punished. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: But if the child would cause the mother so much anxiety... Prabhupāda: Don't talk like foolish. Don't talk of that. It is waste of time. If it is the property of the mother, mother can kill at any time. Why at a certain point if the mother kills child she is hanged? If the mother has got the liberty to kill the child, she can kill at any time. Harikeśa: Well, it's just a tumor. It's like a tumor. Prabhupāda: Then why you say that it is mother's right to kill? And tumor, can you bring life in tumor? Kick simply on their face, on their nose. That is the only thing to treat with such... Murkhasya latausadhiḥ. Such fools in the society, they should be hanged. Misleading the whole population. Harikeśa: Even the big, big philosophers simply say that life doesn't start until it comes out of the womb. They are just convinced of it. They are just convinced of it. No matter what argument you give, they are just simply convinced. Prabhupāda: How they are convinced? Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda's argument is that if life is not there in the womb, then how it develops? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the point. Just like the eggs. If there is no life, how the chicken comes? Why don't you manufacture an egg and bring life from it? That was... The other day I was talking. So because you are tenth*-class rascal you cannot understand how the life is there. A seed. Take a seed. Unless there is life, how a big tree comes out of it? You manufacture something like that, imitating, and bring life. Life is there. Because you are tenth-class rascal you do not know. Harikeśa: They also bring up the insane argument that life... Prabhupāda: "Insane argument." How we have...? We have no time to hear such insane argument. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But these demons, Prabhupāda, they pose themselves as being very religious. They pose themselves as being very religious. Prabhupāda: How they are religious? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They cite scripture. Prabhupāda: (laughs) The scripture is also devilish. What is these marks? Harikeśa: They grow the grass around the outside and when the green inside has some hole in it like there, they plug it up with that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The scientists cannot immediately accept authority of the *Bhāgavatam*, that it will take hundreds of years. *Prabhupāda: Less intelligent. No intelligence. Therefore I was quoting that, sva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. This class of scientists and such, they are eulogized by small rascals. They are rascals, and small rascals... That is actually happening. Just like your President Nixon. How he was being given reception, crowd. Hundreds and thousands of people used to come. And then again get him down, make him humiliated as far as possible. So this is a rascal, Nixon, and the person who elected him, they are rascals. Therefore the Bhāgavata says, sva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstutaḥ. Here is one big animal, and the small animals voting him. That's all. This is the society, animal society*-the small animals praising the big animals. That's all. All of them are animals only. Devotee: The big animals also prey on the small animals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mutual praising society. That's all. "I praise you and you praise me. I say you are very big; you say I am very big." That's all. And compromise. "I don't criticize you; you don't criticize me." That's all. [break] In the womb the child got life and when the... Sometimes some child comes, stunt. By process again he cries. So why the dead child is not brought into life by that? What do you call dead? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Stillborn. Still. When it's born dead. Prabhupāda: So... No, no. How the life came? How it became dead? This is eucalyptus, very hard. Eucalyptus? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It has smell. Prabhupāda: No, no. Very hard. No need. [break] ...question, ask them that in the egg there is no life, and the life is coming by what is called? Fermenta... No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fertilization? Prabhupāda: Fertilization or... No, giving the heat? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Incubation. Prabhupāda: Incubation. So why don't you make such egg and put it into incubation? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We challenge them like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then why you are talking nonsense that there is no life? Why you are depending on other life for giving you the egg? So this theory that life comes from chemical, so where it is true? Life is coming from the ... a life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they say that life is simply a combination of chemicals. Prabhupāda: So do it now. It is not difficult. You can see the egg's chemical, and just combine little chemicals and put it in the incubator. Let life come. Hm? What is your answer? The advocate speaks. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Yes, we are working on it." (laughter) Prabhupāda: Working on it. Eh? What is the answer? How long you will work? Is there any time limit? Eh? What is that work? What is the answer? Hm? How long you will work? Harikeśa: I don't think anybody is trying to make an egg. Prabhupāda: Hm? Why not? Why they are not making, trying? Devotee (1): They know they can't. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, there are certain scientists that are trying to create life, but they've been unsuccessful. Prabhupāda: Then why do they talk nonsense, what the nonsense says? This is a very good suggestion, that egg is chemical composition. Make a chemical composition like that. That yellow, what is called? Devotee (1): Yolk. Prabhupāda: Yolk. You color it. Some chemical and color it. What is difficulty? Sometimes they say a man is dead because the color of the blood has changed. From red to..., it has become white. So where is the difficulty to make it red again? Do it. Change the color again. Make it red. And if you say, "No, that natural redness is required," so there are so many flowers, natural red. Why there is no life? If redness, natural redness, is the cause of life, so there are so many flowers, red flowers. Why they do not walk? If you say that the... "Besides that, the life substance is missing," that is also not correct. Life substance is there in the dead body; otherwise how worms are coming out? Life is coming out. Not one, but hundreds are coming out. How you can say the life substance is missing? The worms are coming automatically, but you take the portion of the dead body and produce worm. That you cannot do. So which way you are going to take credit as scientist? Now which way? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk through there. Prabhupāda: These arguments are not sufficient to defeat the atheists? Harikeśa: People in general might accept it, but the scientists could always come up with... Prabhupāda: No, why the scientists will not accept? Harikeśa: Well, they don't want to accept. Prabhupāda: But that is another thing, obstinacy. Harikeśa: Just like they... In Australia they created those enzymes which were moving and were the basic components of life. So then they say, "Well, we've gone so far and created these first enzymes, the initial component of life. So we'll put them together in the future." And people... That may be an argument. It's not a very good one, but they will accept. All the scientists will accept it, that they've gone so far and done that. Prabhupāda: No, then who is the scientist who is producing so many lives? You have not met him, but actually we see what you are trying to become successful in future, it is already there. Now, who is that big scientist? Why don't you find him out? Why don't you call him and give him Nobel Prize? Why you are taking? You are rascal. What is their answer? Already things are coming. There are so many lives, so that you are killing lives, being afraid of overpopulation. So he is creating so many lives that you think of it as overpopulation, overproduction. So what is your credit if you suppose in future you create one life? What credit you are going to give him? [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...experimentation, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Science is based on experimentation. They will argue, "So how can we experiment with the theories that you are putting forward?" Prabhupāda: Our theory or your theory? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Your theory. Our theory. Prabhupāda: What is that "our theory"? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That the soul is the life force. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how can we prove that? How can we make the spirit soul appear? Prabhupāda: How can you bring life force? Have you brought? Then how you can question this? If you have brought life otherwise, then you can question. As you cannot bring life otherwise, you have to accept this. This is the proof. Not only that: because the soul is there, therefore I am talking with you. I am replying your inquiries. And when the soul is not there, even the tongue is there, even the ear is there, I cannot hear you, I cannot reply you. [break] ...instrument is there by which I talk, why he cannot talk? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The spirit soul is not present. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It seems that you've made it so easy to defeat the scientists. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yet all the universities, schools throughout the world, they're simply following this experimental knowledge of the scientists. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...machine is recording, but as soon as electricity stops-the machine is there*-it will not record. You cannot say the machine is the ultimate. Machine is there; it will not record as soon as the electricity is missing. So that electricity, either you say soul or something else, you replace it. Just like electricity means the battery you charge, it will work, again record. Similarly, if you say "That is not soul, something missing," so you can replace it. What is that something? That something also you do not know. Then how can you refute my argument, soul? You do not know anything. I at least know something on the basis of śāstra. But you have neither śāstra nor experiment, nothing else. So who is strong? I am strong or you are strong? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Our position is very weak against these arguments. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I have got some evidences*-Kṛṣṇa is speaking, the Vedic śāstra... And what you have got? Simply your speaking? What you are, nonsense? Your speaking should be accepted? And Kṛṣṇa's speaking will be rejected? I have got some support, but what support you have got except your statement? Then everyone can give a statement and he becomes an authority. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But there are so many millions and millions of people who hold the opposite view. They feel that their position is very safe because it's the general consensus opinion that life comes from matter. Prabhupāda: General consensus of opinion... Let them say that there will be no more death, and how it will act? General consensus of opinion... Let them vote, "We do not want death anymore." Will it be accepted? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Then? What is the value of your vote? You are madmen. Just like Gandhi made civil disobedience here, and government did not accept it. What could he do? [break] ...truth. If the majority says, "No, it is truth," it will be truth? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Then untruth is untruth. (end) Room Conversation -- October 21, 1975, Johannesburg Guest: ...all the potential audience, and I'm hoping we'll see the documentary. So it's just a couple of questions I'd like to ask you, if I may? And if I can record them, we can have them typed out. I hope my little tape recorder works. Prabhupāda: You sit down. Actually ours is not in search of truth, but we are presenting the truth as it is. We are not searching out. *Guest: Right. Well, this is what I want to... I wanted to ask you... I'll put the questions in order. The questions in order is... The first one is, "Within Vedic culture, what is meant by bhakti*-yoga?" The second one... Shall we take it in... Prabhupāda: Yes. You just learn it first of all. Vedic culture is that we are living entities. Some way or other, we have fallen in this material world and encaged in this body or other body. So material world means the spirit soul is wandering throughout the universe under material conditions. And the Vedic knowledge is to get him out of this material condition and take him again to the spiritual world. This is Vedic knowledge. Guest: And bhakti... *Prabhupāda: Bhakti*-yoga is the direct method. There are many methods recommended. Karma, jñāna, yoga, and at last bhakti. They are different steps of the same staircase going upwards, and bhakti-yoga is the topmost level. Guest: And bhakti is a devotional surrender. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Spiritual world means there the Supreme Lord is supreme, nobody else. And all others, they are engaged in His service. This is spiritual world. Here, in the material world, everyone is trying to be master. In the spiritual world there is no such attempt. They know the master is only God and all others, they are servants. That is the difference between material and spiritual. Guest: I think that covers that. Second question. We were talking about that in this documentary, "In Search of Truth." Do you think there is any other way to actually realize God in truth and... Prabhupāda: God can be realized through bhakti, surrender. Otherwise even it is realized, it is partial, not complete. Guest: Well, that answers that. *Prabhupāda: Bhakti... Just like I have got some official servant, and I have got very confidential servant. So to my confidential servant everything is disclosed. He knows everything. But official servant, he may not know everything. Therefore bhakti is the confidential part of understanding God. Otherwise they understand vaguely, impartially, not sufficiently. In the Bhagavad*-gītā there is a verse, mayy āsakta-manā pārtha yoga yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ, samagram, asaṁśaya samagra mā yath jñās... You can quote it. That is the first śloka of the Seventh Chapter. Pusta Kṛṣṇa: "Now hear, O son of Prtha, Arjuna, how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full, free from doubt." Guest: That answers it. Can I have that... Chapter... *Pusta Kṛṣṇa: Bhagavad*-gītā, Seventh Chapter, first text. Seven, one. Guest: Prabhupāda, I believe that answers all the questions I went through before that. We'd just like to say it's been very nice to meet you. We're both, in our own way, trying to find truth ourselves. *Prabhupāda: Asaṁśa... These two words are very important, asaṁśayaṁ, "without any doubt." Everyone, every religion, they have no doubtless understanding of God. Everyone has some doubt. Neither complete. That is only in bhakti*-yoga. Guest: We're just discovering veils of ignorance. We're trying to... Prabhupāda: Any religious system, ask them, "What do you understand by God?" They will not be able to explain, because that is not complete, not doubtless. Therefore these two words have been used, asaṁśayaṁ samagram. Guest: Our reading has only drawn forth a lot of conflicting answers so far. We've been reading into Hindu philosophies, and most of the answers conflict with each other. Prabhupāda: Which book you are reading? Guest: Well, we've been just reading mainly biographies by swamis and yogis, Aurobindo and Resynthesis of... Prabhupāda: They have no realization. They have simply jugglery of words. That's all. Guest: It's new for us, so I'm not very... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Guest: It's very new for us. We've only been doing it for a few months. *Prabhupāda: Read Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Guest: I've got it. I am reading it. Each time I read it, I find I read it a little better. Prabhupāda: Aurobindo has no clear knowledge. And which other swami you are reading? Guest: We've read... Which one did you read? Woman: Maharishi. Prabhupāda: No, he has no idea. *Guest: We've started practicing that Transcendental Meditation. We have found that by practicing the meditation we have had a change in consciousness. It has led us into further inquiry, so we've found that it has been valuable in a certain way, and that's the only actual practice. We have been reading things like Muktananda and kundalini*-yoga and that sort of stuff, the haṭha-yoga. So it's just been an inquiry of our own which we've never done before. We've only been exposed to our own Christian scriptures. And we find in bhakti-yoga and Christianity a lot of similarities. They are the same, as far as we can see. It's difficult, though, to understand our scriptures in... *Prabhupāda: No, in the Bhagavad*-gītā everything is clearly explained. Guest: That's right. Our scriptures are interpreted, and we've been taught to interpret them in a certain way, and it hasn't been very clear. Prabhupāda: What scripture you are... Bible? Guest: Well, the Bible. But we only know the Bible as we've been told it, and it's been told to us by unrealized men, and we ended up being virtually atheistically inclined, until that led to... Prabhupāda: So in Bible what is the conception of God? Guest: It's very unclear. Prabhupāda: That I was speaking. In every religion... Woman: To identify with it. Prabhupāda: There is no clear conception. *Guest: That's right. And I think this is the reason that leads you away. We've been led away from the Bible because of that. There is nothing clear, and everybody who has read it to us has read it to us in a different way. But I would say that the finest book we have read is Bhagavad*-gītā. There's no question. (end) Morning Walk -- October 25, 1975, Mauritius Harikeśa: By chemically changing the genes in the living being we can, before conception, make a superior... Prabhupāda: You can... First of all you be beaten with shoes. That's all. Then you can. Harikeśa: No, we've actually done it. We've changed some genes and made some people better. By experimentation we can make people... Prabhupāda: And your big, big cities are full with hippies. You cannot induce them to give up their LSD, and you are making better men. Better men is going to become worse. Just see how cheating. Harikeśa: Oh, you mean once we make the better men they'll just degrade again. Prabhupāda: Simply bogus propaganda. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...that their educational system has failed. Therefore they... Prabhupāda: Yes. They should close the universities and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So by birth they want to make better men. They can't make them by culture. Prabhupāda: No, culture... They adopt real culture. What do they know about culture? They're killing their own children in the womb, and they're cultured? Worse than the animals. The animals do not do that. These rascals, they are cultured? So wretched and fallen, and they are claiming to be cultured. Harikeśa: So you can't culture a superior man unless you are one yourself. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: It's not possible to culture a superior man unless you are one yourself. Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all be yourself a cultured man, a gentleman. You are worse than animals. What animals cannot do, you are doing. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...man is defined by Cāṇakya Paṇḍit. Here is culture. First thing is, any woman except one's own wife. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: : What is that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: : Any woman should be looked upon as mother. This is culture. Except his married wife, all women should be treated as mother. The brahmacārīs were taught like that, "Mother." This is culture. Simply they are trying to elope other's wife, other's woman, exploit them. And they're cultured. There is no culture at the present moment. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat: "And others' money should be treated just like pebbles in the street." Nobody cares for it. So they are simply making plans how to grab others' money. And Ātmavat sarva bhūteṣu: "And if you feel pains and pleasure, you should consider for others also." If your throat is cut, then do you feel very happy? Why you are cutting the throats of the poor animals? Where is culture? There is no culture. Simply rogues and thieves and rascals and fools. Where is culture? They do not know what is the meaning of culture. Here is culture, three words: He is cultured. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise just animal. Prabhupāda: Simply animal. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is very logical. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should we call all the women "mother"? Prabhupāda: Yes. And treat it like mother. Not only call, but treat it like mother. Harikeśa: Actually we have not even any idea how to treat mother. *Prabhupāda: Learn it. At least mother should not be proposed for sex. This much you can learn. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. [break] ...two questions, that they have not gone to moon planet and they cannot make even a chicken egg, you make great propaganda. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: The rascals will be proved that they're really rascals. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're saying, "To make human being." First let them make an ant or an egg. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. Then? (Bengali) "You cannot catch even nonpoisonous snake, and you are telling that 'I shall now catch cobra.' " Harikeśa: Isn't that "shooting the rhinoceros"? Prabhupāda: Shooting? Harikeśa: The rhinoceros or hippopotamus or some... You're trying to shoot some big animal, and if you can't do it everybody will say, "Oh, he could never do it anyway." And if he does it they all praise? *Prabhupāda: No, no, to kill animal is not very heroic. Nonsense. Innocent animal wandering and you kill. "Oh, very great hero." Again he deserves to be kicked on the face. All action, they are simply rewarded with kicking on the face. Why should you kill animal? Ātmavat sarva*-bhūteṣu. If you are killed, you feel pain. Why should you kill others unnecessarily? [break] ...here? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not here, I don't think. A golf course is not a private place. Prabhupāda: So we shall return? No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you like. Harikeśa: Would you like your gloves, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ice was coming down, hail. Hail. Before we went to the program there was hail, ice coming down. It's gone. Prabhupāda: Yes. In the window there was "cut, cut." [break] ...African government policy to keep these Africans', er, service, yes, for working, get money. They will remain happy in that way. They have no brain. They cannot govern. It is not possible. So this policy is nice. Harikeśa: Someone was telling me that the weather here was supposed to be like Miami. *Prabhupāda: Miami? [break] ...places were reserved for the sinful man in Kali*-yuga. Formerly the Aryans never touched these places. Harikeśa: Africa. Prabhupāda: Africa or similar, other places. They were living in best places, like India. Now the number of sinful persons are increasing. Therefore they have been transferred here. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: America? Prabhupāda: Anywhere. Harikeśa: So in the warmer climates it seems like a better place for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: In warmer climate you can live inexpensively, and freely. In winter climate, there is no freedom, neither it is inexpensive. Very expensive. [break] ...some Phunsie(?). Phunsie. Harikeśa: Oh, those potato balls. Prabhupāda: Hm. With banana. Harikeśa: With banana. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...the government accept you as guide, then everything will be all right. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Tell them that "We are not going to take any salary. You simply take our advice, and govern." The modern legislative assembly, they should be composed of first*-class brāhmaṇas, no salary. Then the government will be first-class. All of them are after money; *therefore they are trying to capture the power. They have no idea, no desire for the well*-being of the citizens. [break] ...this tree? Dates? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Called palmetto tree. Palmetto tree. Not fruit*-bearing. Not fruit-bearing. Prabhupāda: [Break]...beyond the sun. Indian man: Beyond the sun. How would you explain about eclipse which we get? Prabhupāda: That you ask some astronomer. I am not astronomer. But I understand from Vedic scripture that moon is beyond the sun. Indian man: 'Cause we have seen that the moon comes between... Prabhupāda: Yes, eclipse, it is Rahu. It is Rahu between the sun and, sun and moon. Yes. Indian man: Between the earth and the sun. Prabhupāda: No earth. No, Rahu. Earth is... Cyavana: What they see is Rahu, not moon. No. Indian man: At night the planets which give light to this universe... Prabhupāda: That is moon. Indian man: Moon. Prabhupāda: Yes. They say that every planet gives light. That is not fact. Indian man: The reflection I think, of the sun... Prabhupāda: No, there is fire. Indian man: In the moon too there is fire? But it is cold, as the, our sages say. Prabhupāda: It is surrounded by cooling atmosphere. Indian man: It rotates? Prabhupāda: In a different way, not as they explain. Indian man: They rotate. Prabhupāda: Just like my hands is moving... [break] ...like that. Indian man: And it does not go all around other planets? Prabhupāda: No. Cyavana: They all move together? Prabhupāda: Yes. Cyavana: They move together? *Prabhupāda: Yes. The pivot is the polestar. Fixing, the pole*-star, they are moving like this. And there is sun's movement. So we shall go once again? Cyavana: Yes. We can go back. Indian man: [break]...friend, and I told him that you said these things. So he asked me the question about the eclipse. So I would like to know to explain to him about it. Prabhupāda: The eclipse is... When the Rahu comes between sun and moon, there is eclipse. Indian man: It does not eclipse the moon. But why people say that it's the moon that covers the sun? Because they don't know it's... Prabhupāda: They are misinformed. Indian man: They suppose? Prabhupāda: It is not the fact. Indian man: Astronomers too say that. Prabhupāda: It is up to the man to believe or not believe, but we have got authorities, different; they have got authorities, different. So if we follow our authorities, then we have to accept according to that. Indian man: We get in a dilemma, we people who do not know more than they explain about. Prabhupāda: There is no dilemma, because our literature is there from millions and millions of years, and they have their knowledge within two, three hundred years. Now it is up to us whom to believe. Indian man: You want to say that the astronomers are the mistaken. The astronomers have been mistaken to say all these things? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone commits mistake. Anyone who is conditioned, he must commit mistake. This is our position, that anyone who is not liberated, he must commit mistake. We take knowledge from liberated soul, not from the speculators. That is the difference. Cyavana: They prove their inadequacy by changing their theories every twenty years. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cyavana: They've proved that their brains are weak. Prabhupāda: No, they have no brain. If it is going to change, then what is their brain? [break] Still, there are so many big, big Vedic astronomers. They never change. Cyavana: The astronomers. Prabhupāda: Yes. They follow the old principles. Cyavana: Your Guru Mahārāja, he was an astronomer? Prabhupāda: Yes. Cyavana: [break] ...some astronomers who have the correct understanding? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many. Cyavana: There are some still. They understand correct. Prabhupāda: The Indian astronomer, they correctly say, "This time, this moment, there will be eclipse." How do they say? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: On the basis of Rahu. Prabhupāda: Huh? Cyavana: No, he said they correctly know. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now recently some European astonomers, they said comet is coming, but he did not come. Just see. But no Indian astronomer said that comet is coming, no Indian astronomer. So he became a fool. So much arrangement was made: "Comet is coming." Nobody came. And in our childhood we saw one comet, and Indian astrologers, they very particularly said, "It will begin from this corner. It will rise like this," in this... Exactly it was done. The comet came, and as it is stated, "From this corner it will come," it happened so, everything correct. [break] ...comet did not come, what people said to this astronomer? Nothing? Harikeśa: Nobody knows if it came or not. Prabhupāda: No, it was advertised. Brahmānanda: Just like they were selling land on the moon. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. (laughter) He was telling me. Selling ticket. And if I say, "They are cheater, bluffer," they become angry. Just see. Actually they cheated and bluffed so many men. Now they say it is inhabitable. Why they sold ticket for going there? So many living entities there are, living within the sand, and they say there is no living entity. How they are eating? How they are sleeping? A small... Cyavana: Millions of them. [break] Indian man: ...airless, Swāmijī. Therefore we can't have the life there. They have proved that it is airless, waterless and so on. Prabhupāda: How do you say there is no life? You see in the sand there are so many lives. So there, if it is desert, there are so many lives. Indian man: In the Sahara desert we can have life there, Swamijī? Prabhupāda: They say, but we see practically there are lives. Why shall I believe them? Here I see so many lives are there within the sand. So why shall I believe you when you say that nobody can live there because it is sand or dust. I see practically. Indian man: Here we have air and water. Prabhupāda: There also there is everything. Therefore I say they did not go there. Indian man: In the moon it may be. But where they went, there. There could have not been there. They say there no life there. It may be in Rahuloka, as you have said that. Prabhupāda: No, there is life in Rahu. Cyavana: In the ocean they have air? In the ocean is there air? What is the chemical combination of water? Prabhupāda: You cannot live within the water. Why do you think that others cannot live? Indian man: No, no, I don't mean... Please, Swamijī... I want to say that they have said there is no air and water there. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Where is water within the water? Where the air? Indian man: Not as you call because... Cyavana: How do they live, then? Indian man: Live where? Cyavana: How do they live, then? The same example. Prabhupāda: How they live? So this is all misconception. Indian man: Oh. There should be life there. Cyavana: They have a different way of getting the air than we do. Prabhupāda: Or they may not require air. It is God's creation. Indian man: And because they have not seen, therefore they say that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Here people take in consideration of his position. That is rascaldom. One should not think... There are varieties of life. And how they're in the sun? There is life. So you cannot conceive that there is life in the sun, but there is life. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa went there and talked with the president of the sun? The president means he's alone there? President means there is kingdom. They have got body made of fire. Can you imagine there can be body made of fire? Indian man: If Kṛṣṇa says, then there must be. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is our business. But you cannot interpret. They cannot accommodate within their tiny brain what is going on in the creation. They think in their own way. That's it. Now, they say that the water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen. And who supplied so much hydrogen, oxygen? Indian man: God. *Prabhupāda: So therefore it is, everything, in God's hand. Their difficulty is that they'll not accept God. That is the... Therefore we are very much angry with them. We want to kick on their face. The atheist number one, all these so*-called scientists. Brahmānanda: As soon as they were able to create some oxygen and hydrogen in the laboratory, then "Oh, there's no God." Prabhupāda: "There is no God." So you bring hydrogen, oxygen; create another ocean. Simply talking nonsense. Now, our challenge is "You just get one egg." Can they? Ask any scientist. Can he make one seed which will bring such a big tree? And where is that science? They're all nonsense. Indian man: They were trying to... Prabhupāda: "Trying." That's it. And therefore they should be kicked on their face. They are trying like foolish man and it will never be successful; therefore they should be kicked. This is our proposition. "Trying," "in future," this is their bluff. We don't accept this. [break] ...one check, million dollars, postdated. Then, if you ask me, "Why you have postdated?" "No, I have no money now. In future it will be deposited." Will you accept that check? This is their bluff. Harikeśa: Well, why not accept it? It might turn out. It might turn out in the future. Prabhupāda: So a rascal like you will accept. (laughter) We are not so... [break] ...transaction, even today's date check, they will not accept. Bring cash. Brahmānanda: 'Cause the cheating tendency is there. Prabhupāda: That's all. It is cheating. Postdated check means he cheats. What is the guarantee that there will be deposit of money? Will the bank guarantee? Harikeśa: They've done so many good things in the past, you can understand that... Prabhupāda: No good things. All bluffs. What good things they have done which has benefited the human society or saved the human society from birth, death, old age and disease? What they have done? Our main problem is this. And when there is no food, what the scientists can do? If there is no rice, no wheat? That will come. The scientists will be taught very nicely. Time is coming when there will be no food. Let them produce. Therefore they are trying chemical food, one, one tablet. This is another cheating. Why tablet? Why not actually produce rice by chemical composition? Why tablet? This is their bluff. The Western people, they take dozen of tablets every day. Still, they are the same condition. Cyavana: They are becoming more crazy. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...ceptive tablet, sleeping tablet, or... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Waking tablets. Prabhupāda: Waking tablets and so on, so on. Tranquilization tablet. Brahmānanda: They had one tablet for pregnant mothers, and that tablet was used very much in Europe, and that tablet proved to be very harmful to the children that were born. They created terrible deformities amongst many, many children. So there was a tremendous lawsuit against the company. I think it was a German company. Prabhupāda: What for the tablet was used? Brahmānanda: Some vitamin for the pregnant mothers. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Thalidomide, yes? Brahmānanda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The babies they came out with no arms. Just hands like this coming from their shoulder. Flippers. Prabhupāda: Just see. This is their cheating. [break] ...everything had been experimented, and they were defeated; still, "science." This is their foolishness. [break] ...telling me that fifty thousand people died by motor accident? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I was telling you that. In America they used to have... Prabhupāda: One city is finished. Harikeśa: Fifty thousand? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Each year. Brahmānanda: It used to be ten thousand. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, fifty thousand. That was years ago even. Prabhupāda: So this is the advancement. Every year one city is finished. This is the advancement. Brahmānanda: They were making one joke that on the independence day of America everyone goes out in their car and celebrates. They were making a joke that more people will die by the celebration than died in the original battle of getting the independence. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Just see their intelligence. Andha yathāndhair upaniyamanas te 'pisa*-tantryam uru-damni baddhaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. By nature's law they are bound up hands and legs, and still, they are trying to do something independently. That is their fault. Indian man: Don't you think that the scientists have done good things but people have... Prabhupāda: What is that good thing, first of all say. Indian man: For example, they have invented medicines like the... Prabhupāda: But have they stopped disease? Indian man: But... Prabhupāda: Now, no "but." First of all, they have got medicine for making money, but have they stopped disease? Indian man: To some extent. Prabhupāda: "To some extent," that is another bluff. That is another bluff. "To future," "some extent." Why some extent? Stop it. Indian man: There were many people dying in Africa. Prabhupāda: Everyone is dying. How you will live? Indian man: Malaria... Prabhupāda: No, no. Will you live forever? Indian man: No, sir. *Prabhupāda: Then why do you speak that many are living? You cannot live. That is nature's law. You must die*-today or tomorrow. It doesn't matter. Indian man: They died before time comes. People die before time if there is no... Prabhupāda: At the present moment they are not dying? Indian man: Not... They should... There have been more deaths than... Prabhupāda: So more or less, they are dying. Can you stop it? This is all bluffing, and fools are bewildered by these, all these propositions. You have to die today or tomorrow. Can you stop your death? Indian man: No. Prabhupāda: Then what is the benefit of this? And pay the scientists money for bluffing. You'll die today or tomorrow. It doesn't matter. Why you are anxious? After all, we have to die. Just like we are in a friend's place. We have to vacate it. And if two days' advance, "All right, you can remain two days," that means I have got the proprietorship of the house? It is all nonsense. You have to die. Stop this death; then there is credit. If I become proprietor of the house, there is credit. And if I am living for four days, if they give concession, "All right, you can live two days more," is that very great benefit? I'll have to leave it. Similarly, you will have to die today or tomorrow. It doesn't matter. Indian man: But the Jains(?) can stop this death... Prabhupāda: Nobody is... Rascals and fools will that: "I'll not die. Tomorrow I shall die. (laughter) Tomorrow." This is rascal. These things will be done by the rascals. "I'll not die today. I'll die tomorrow." This is rascaldom. Indian man: About religion, Swamijī. Religion is capable to stop death? Prabhupāda: Yes. Here the... Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. That is our proposal, to go back to home, back to Godhead. No more death. Indian man: After death no death? Prabhupāda: No death. Indian man: Okay, then, Swamijī, we should... Prabhupāda: "After death" means we have got this body; *we'll have to leave it. That is certain. But after leaving this body, you are not going to get another body which will die. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. If they can manufacture some medicine that "You have suffered from diseases. Now you take this medicine*-no more disease," then there is credit, no more disease. But there is no guarantee. Indian man: One kind of disease. Prabhupāda: One kind or another kind, disease is disease. Disease is disease. It is foolish for the person to think, "If I would have gotten that disease, it was better for me." This is foolish, another foolishness. Disease is disease. Disease means suffering. You have to suffer, that's all, this disease or that disease. Brahmānanda: The man who owns this house, his wife died recently from cancer. He sent her to London for special treatment, very costly, and they could not do anything. Prabhupāda: Oh. Just see. Where is this? That is their science? Take money and do nothing. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At least in the past when there was disease people would depend on God more. Now they depend on the doctors. Prabhupāda: No, still they have to depend on God. Otherwise this man spent so much money. God denied, "No, your wife will not stay," and she had to die. Brahmānanda: [break] ...when she went to London for treatment she became worse. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like vitamin pill*-no hand. Cyavana: Yes. No arms. Prabhupāda: Simply they are cheating. There was one gentleman, English gentleman, Sir William Temple. He used to say, "I wish to die without a doctor. Don't bring doctor." Cyavana: Without a doctor. Prabhupāda: Yes. "Let me die peacefully. Don't bring doctor." I say also. Don't bring doctor when I am diseased. What is this? Brahmānanda: [break] There's a chair if you would like to sit out here in the sun. Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not so cold. Jaya. (end) Morning Walk -- October 26, 1975, Mauritius Prabhupāda: So the news was there that Jesus Christ, after crucification, he was alive, and he went to... (aside:) Not so near. And he went to Kashmir. So by the yogic process, in samādhi one can remain alive although superficially he is seen that he is killed. That is possible. Hiraṇyakaśipu did that. He was undergoing tapasya for one hundred years of the demigods. Their duration of time is: our six months, their one day. So such a long time he was undergoing austerity, penance, and thus he became perfect. So his body was practically finished by the earthworm, what is called, moths and ants. Brahmānanda: Because he was standing still? Prabhupāda: Yes. For so many years everything was eaten. Only on the bones were there. Brahmānanda: So he appeared to be dead, but he wasn't. Prabhupāda: No, he was not dead. He was living on bones. Bones were there. Mean, life is not dependent on this material body. One can practice this by yoga. Without this body he can live. Just like ghost. That is possible. Brahmānanda: Yes, the yogis are able to stop their breathing... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: ...and stop their heart beating, and still they are not dead. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is perfection of astanga*-yoga, samādhi, to remain in trance. [break] Yes. Actually he was not dead. Cyavana: He never died. Prabhupāda: Yes. He practiced yoga from India. For twelve years he was there. Brahmānanda: In India. So is that a fact, that he went to India? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise how he came to Kashmir? He knew. And when he was in India his mother died. That Aquarian Gospel? Father and mother died. Brahmānanda: In the book that Haṁsadūta published, of Christ, Kristos and Krishna, these things are there. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is in the Aquarian Gospel. [Break] Dr. Wolf has said that he cannot accept from Krishna to Krista. Then, by that word, he has proved himself another rascal, because he does not know the Sanskrit way of philology. Sanskrit, there are vargas*-ka-varga, ca-varga, ṭa-varga, ta-varga and pa-varga-five vargas. So Kṛṣṇa is in the ṭa-varga. Ṭa, ṭha, ḍa, ḍha, ṇa. So Kṛṣṇa, it can be replaced by ṭa also. (laughter) He does not know that, this rascal. That is the difficulty. These Western rascals, little knowledge, they think very good scholar. That is the difficulty. Brahmānanda: He is very proud. *Prabhupāda: Because he has got that doctorate title, so he thinks that he has conquered all over the world. Sapari jala*-matrena phora-phoraya. (?) You'll find some fish, a small-little water: (makes sound) "phrr, phrr, phrr, phrr, phrr, phrr." Brahmānanda: Making big noise. *Prabhupāda: And a big fish, they'll remain in the middle, whale fish. And a small fish, (makes noise) "phrr, phrr, phrr, phrr, phrr." Sapari phora phoraya. So he is a small fish. He is thinking that he knows everything. What does he know about these five vargas? Does he know anything? Ka*-varga, ca-varga, ṭa-varga. So ṭa-varga means ṭa, ṭha, ḍa, ḍha, ṇa. So the ṇa is there. So it can be replaced by ṭa. Harikeśa: I think he was also the same one who was saying the Aquarian Gospel was just somebody's dream. Prabhupāda: Yes, but you are also dreaming. Why do you claim that your dream is all right; *his dream is wrong? Dreaming is wrong. If his dream is wrong-you are also dreaming*-you are also wrong. Why do you claim that your dream is all right? That is nonsense. Everyone thinks that he is right and everyone is wrong. We do not think like that. We take the words of the authority, that's all. Or we have no respect(?). This is our program. That is the way of paramparā. Not only we accept, but our previous ācāryas, all the big, big ācāryas, they have accepted. Śukadeva Gosvāmī said. He is ācārya. Vyāsadeva says from the very beginning. Kṛṣṇa says. That's all right. We take these authorities. We do not dream. That is not our process. Dream, your dream or my dream, this is all rascal. Dream is dream. Why do you think that your dream is right and my dream is wrong? Brahmānanda: That's why they're always bickering with one another. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no standard idea. I dream some way; you dream some way. That's all. What is this? Cyavana: Seaweed. Brahmānanda: It looks like a sponge. Cyavana: Plant. Prabhupāda: That is their defect. If my dream is wrong, why your dream should be right? That they did not conceive of, that "My dream is right(?)." And if you say that "Your dream is also wrong," yes, I do not dream. I take the facts from the authority. We do not dream. Dream is dream, either yours or mine. It doesn't matter. Brahmānanda: Well, some people question whether that Aquarian Gospel is authority. Prabhupāda: Why Bible is authority? Who cares for Bible? Nobody cares for Bible. So there, some supporter for some book, these, you will always find it. Huh? Now they are decrying, deriding Bible also. So how do you say that Bible is authority when so many things have changed? Brahmānanda: Even they are changing their interpretation of the... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: ...Bible regularly. Prabhupāda: So if you don't accept Aquarian Gospel authority, who cares for your Bible? At least Aquarian Gospel has been written by some Christian. It is not outsider. Harikeśa: They say he was a drunk. Prabhupāda: But you are a mad. He is drunk, and you are mad. Where is the difference? So, if we can go? [break] It was a statement that the earth is flat. Eh? Where it was stated the earth is flat? Harikeśa: Oh. That was a theory of one of the contemporary Roman philosophers. Prabhupāda: It is not in Bible. Harikeśa: No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [Break] There is no information in the Bible at all about God. There's no information about God, simply that God is there, He's the creator, but nothing more. Prabhupāda: That is in no scripture excepting the Vedic scripture. Clear conception of God is there in the Vedic. Definition of God, clear conception of God, everything is there. Brahmānanda: Their idea is that God is so great that you cannot see Him. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. You cannot see because you are worthless. But those who are worthful, those who have attained liberation, they can see. Just like it is stated in the Bhāgavata, apasyat puruṣam purnam. Apasyat: "He saw, Vyāsadeva." Huh... Bhakti*-yogena manasi samyak pranihite amale apasyat [SB 1.7.4]. When your heart will be completely cleared of all this material conception, then you can see. So long you are materially contaminated, it is not possible. That's a fact. But bhakti-yogena samyak pranihite amale. When the heart is cleansed, that is the process. Therefore we are insisting that "Let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa." Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The heart will be cleansed. Then they will understand. All of a sudden, if you speak all this philosophy "Kṛṣṇa said," they will accept that "Why Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary man. Why shall I..." Brahmānanda: They will argue. *Prabhupāda: Jaya. Because the heart is full of dirty things, so therefore ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam, this is the process. First of all cleanse the heart. Just like slate. If it is unclean, or the mirror, if it is unclean, you cannot see. So you have to cleanse his heart. That we can do. The Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra... And that is proof. Otherwise how could you come to this camp unless the heart is cleansed? That's a proof. Brahmānanda: They came by the chanting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Some fish? No. Brahmānanda: In the Old Testament, God was speaking to Moses. So Moses wanted to see God. He was on a mountain. And he turned around, but then God became a burning bush. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was supposed to be the back of God. The burning bush was the back of God. Prabhupāda: Burning bush? Brahmānanda: A bush that was on fire. Prabhupāda: Oh. Brahmānanda: That's what... Prabhupāda: God has no material body. Brahmānanda: Because he was not qualified to see God. *Prabhupāda: Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grahyam indriyaiḥ [Brs. 1.2.234]. By these material senses, you cannot understand God. Nāmādi. Even you cannot understand His holy name. Our understanding of God begins by chanting the holy name. So by chanting, chanting, because God is not different from the name, you associate with name..., er, with God, and then you become cleansed. This is the process. God is not different from His holy name. So you chant the holy name of God. That means you associate with God immediately. Just like you associate with the sun immediately, er, sunshine*-you become warm-similarly, by associating with God, you become God conscious. This is our program. We are giving chance people to associate with God directly by chanting His holy name. God is omnipotent. His name is as omnipotent as He is. These fools, they do not know that. Brahmānanda: They think it's some lesser, ordinary. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And if you say, "Why, then, Kṛṣṇa? There are many names," so Caitanya: "Yes, any name of God, if it is God's name, it is as powerful." If it is God's name. "Any name" does not mean you manufacture some name. That is not. Any name by which one can understand this is God's name, that is there said. Nāmnam akari bahudha*-nija sarva-śaktis tatrarpita niyamitaḥ smarane na kalaḥ. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching. If you do not accept Kṛṣṇa as a God's name, then if you have your own name of Kṛṣṇa, er, God, chant it. Brahmānanda: But it must be standard. Prabhupāda: Must be God's name. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. But if you do not know what is God's name, then what you will chant? What you will chant? Then you chant Kṛṣṇa. We know it is God's name. Take. Take to our principle. If there is no medical college, come to our medical college. You are welcome. Why you are envious? You have no medical college; *at the same time, you are envious of my medical college. Why? Why this nonsense? If you want to learn medical science*-you have no medical science, college-come here. This is our proposal. Why you are envious? That means rascal. "Our gold." Gold is "our gold," everyone's gold? "Our gold." What do you mean, "our gold"? Gold is always gold, either in your hand or in my hand. In your hand it is not Christian gold and in my hand it is not Hindu gold. Gold is gold. In the Bible there is no specific name of God. Eh? Brahmānanda: Well, they say, "Jehovah" and "Yaweḥ." Prabhupāda: Not fixed up. The Māyāvāda... If you have no fixed name of God, then why don't you chant Kṛṣṇa? What is the harm? But envious. Therefore paramo nirmatśaraṇaṁ [SB 1.1.2]. One who has completely eradicated from the envious conception of life, they can take to this way. [Break] ...climate of this island is good. Cyavana: It's pleasant. Prabhupāda: [Break] ...right time. I don't think he had many followers. Cyavana: Very few. Prabhupāda: Only twelve, and out of them some proved infidel. Cyavana: Yes. Brahmānanda: One betrayed him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cyavana: Peter? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Judah. Prabhupāda: And after resurrection he had to go away to India. Cyavana: Yes. That's 'cause they tried to kill him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if he had declared that "I am not dead," perhaps he would have been again crucified. Cyavana: Yes. They would keep trying to kill him. Prabhupāda: Because the people were so intelligent, they would not believe him, so out of fear he went away. "All right, stop my preaching. Come on. (laughs) Let me go to find some safe place." (laughter) Cyavana: He created a great impression on the minds of men for many, many generations. Prabhupāda: Imperson? Cyavana: Impression. Prabhupāda: What is that? Impression. Cyavana: Yes. By his preaching he left a strong impression. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cyavana: Christianity. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's like the flowery words of the *Vedas*, flowery words of the *Vedas*, mostly simply dealing with moral principles. Prabhupāda: That also broken. He said, "Thou shall not kill." They broke it. Cyavana: Yes, they broke every... Prabhupāda: Everything. [break] Hearing is there. Therefore the other items, eating, sleeping and mating must be there. So there is arrangement for them, everything, within the sand. How you can say within the sand there is no life? Brahmānanda: They think they can have the eating and the sleeping and the mating and not the fearing. They want to have the eating, the sleeping and the mating but not the fearing. Prabhupāda: Why? Here is fearing. Why they are going out? They know we are a different living entity. Brahmānanda: No, the materialists, the human beings. Prabhupāda: There is no fearing? Brahmānanda: Well, they don't want fearing. Prabhupāda: They don't want... They don't want anything, but it is forced upon him. That is their rascaldom. They don't want something, but it is forced upon him. Still, he says, "No, I am not under control." That is his foolishness. Brahmānanda: That means he's a rascal. *Prabhupāda: Rascal. That is rascal. Obstinate. Which is fact, he is obstinate*-that is rascal. Dog's obstinacy. [break]...manufacture life with chemical, still obstinate. "Yes." Brahmānanda: "We shall do it." Prabhupāda: "Yes. We shall do it, future." That's all. This is dog's obstinacy. We say, "Take one egg. Analyze what chemicals are there. Put together." "No." "Yes, it will be..." And we have to accept this obstinacy as science? It is open. If you are really scientist, you take the egg; analyze what chemicals are there. Brahmānanda: Yeah, they are able to analyze, and they also have the chemicals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: So what is the problem? Prabhupāda: What is the problem? But still, these rascals will say that he is right. You see? He cannot even analyze properly, and still he is obstinate; *he is right. This rascaldom is going on. And if we say "rascal," they are angry. Murkhayopadeṣo hi prakopaya na śanti...: "To a rascal, if you give the right instruction, they will be simply angry." That's all. Not pacification, they will be angry. Payaḥ*-pānaṁ bhujanganam kevalaṁ visa-vardhanam: "Just like the serpent, rascal. If you give him milk, he'll drink it and increase his poison." That's it. The result will be he will increase his poison. Better to keep them starvation. Therefore everyone, as soon as one sees the serpent, immediately kills. No consideration. "Here is a serpent. Kill him." Similarly, immediately we see the scientists, kill. (laughter) That is the only proccess. So-called scientists. So do you agree, Harikeśa, for kicking on the face of these rascals or not? Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is fair proposal. You take one egg, analyze. If you are scientist, you find out what are the chemicals. You have got all the chemicals. And mix it up, the color yellow, and dip into what is called, celluloid ? Or...? Brahmānanda: Cellulose? Prabhupāda: Cellulose, covering? It is just like cellulose. And put underneath the incubator and get. Then we shall accept you. Why not ask all these rascals all over the world? Brahmānanda: One thing the egg has, the egg has... It's red because there is blood there for nourishment. And they cannot even produce blood. Prabhupāda: Take blood from the slaughterhouse and put it. If blood is necessary, the tons of blood available. You take it and put it here. That is also another chemical. That's all. Why don't you do that? Little blood required, there is no question of manufacturing. You can get it from slaughterhouse, tons. Take little drops and put it. It is blood. Where is your science, nonsense? It is practical suggestion. Challenge then in big, big meeting. [break] ...past it was coming this side, and fifteen minutes, it has gone down. How many tons of water has gone down on this beach within fifteen minutes? Is there any scientist who can...? Brahmānanda: They cannot control the water in that way. [Break] It's like there was a big valve, and someone has shut the valve... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: ...and so the water is getting less. It is controlled. Prabhupāda: And who is controlling? It is not under my control. First time I wanted to go, I could not. But this time I can. So under whose control? It is my control or somebody else? Brahmānanda: Well, they will say "automatic control." Prabhupāda: What is that "automatic"? That is their stupidity. Everything is being done under control. What is the automatic? [Break] ...automatic means you have to wait for that automatic control. You cannot do. Cyavana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then where is the meaning of "automatic"? Brahmānanda: But their idea is that they can change the automatic control to suit their own... *Prabhupāda: That is their... That is their stupidity. Therefore they are fit for being kicked. That is the disease*-imagining, obstinacy. They cannot do anything; still they'll claim they can do. "Pay me my salary." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the position of the scientist who studies the laws of nature and then he tries to utilize them for his advantage, exploits them? Prabhupāda: That's all right. The law is there. That is not his law. So his intelligence will be there when he understands who has made this law. Then his intelligence. That is intelligence. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like making airplane. They observe the bird, and then they make... Prabhupāda: Now, that they... When they admit, "Oh, this law is made (heavy static) ," then they come to senses. Brahmānanda: They become? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "To their senses." Brahmānanda: To their senses. Yes. *Prabhupāda: And as soon as they remain in darkness-"Yes, we are trying to control the laws. Future, we shall do"*-they're nonsense stupid. You become educated scientist, mathematician, very good. But ultimately you accept that the law is given by Kṛṣṇa, or God. Then you are perfect. Harikeśa: One scientist once wrote a book, and in this book a person had some disease, so they invented a little spaceship which was very, very tiny, and they went in through the eye and they saw all of the workings of the body, how all the red blood cells and white blood cells were working and attacking the disease and all these things. Prabhupāda: Huh? Brahmānanda: They made a cinema of this. Harikeśa: So there was one scene in which they are looking out and seeing all of these, this fight going on inside the blood, and the one scientist inside the machine said, "How can they say there is no God?" Brahmānanda: Even when the American astronauts went up, they brought a Bible with them, and when they saw the earth, how wonderful it was... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And they didn't make it to the moon. Brahmānanda: ...they quoted from the Bible about how wonderful the creation of God is, how He has made it. Prabhupāda: And only they saw the moon planet is... There is no living entity. Why God made the moon planet? To keep it vacant? Full of dust? Brahmānanda: Yes. They become more proud that this earth planet is so full and other planets are all vacant. Prabhupāda: So God is so fool that He made all other planets vacant, and here for the rascals, there is... (laughter) Full of rascals. Harikeśa: He had to put the dust somewhere. That's one of the theories, that all of the gas... In the beginning all the gas was circulating around and it solidified into different planets. Prabhupāda: So why this planet is full of living entities? Why not others? What is that gas? What particular gas was circulating this planet? So take this gas, circulate over here, and get living entities there and live there. Why don't you do that, you scientists? Why you are disappointed? You are going to Venus. Just see. This rascaldom we have to believe. Harikeśa: That's the next famous theory after the chunk theory. Prabhupāda: It is simply waste of time even to talk with these fools. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The governments are giving billions and billions of dollars... Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...in scientific grants. Prabhupāda: All another set of fools, that's all. [Break] ...whole world is unhappy on account of being controlled by different set of fools. That is the calamity. If they say, "There are so many educated persons. They are controlling, and you are saying "fools." Why? Then what you will answer? Harikeśa: "Kṛṣṇa says." Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mūḍha. *Prabhupāda: Mūḍha, narādhama māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. They have no knowledge. "Why no knowledge? Degrees." No, this is māyā. "What is the cause?" Aśuri-bhavam aśritaḥ: Godless rascal. Therefore he's a mūḍha. Harikeśa: So it's not that we're so much concerned about science but rather the aśuravāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: We don't have to research because our conclusion is already there. Prabhupāda: Already there. And it is acting, practical. How from the stone this has come? Stone and sand, but they are life; it is green. [Break] ...this? Brahmānanda: This is a type of tree. There's many of them like this. Prabhupāda: What is this? Fuel? (?) Now... Just see how fresh it is. You can take some foodstuff and eat very nicely. Cyavana: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: And then throw it. That's all. What is the use of keeping on the veranda for three years? (laughter) I am seeing every day so carefully. Devotee: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- October 28, 1975, Nairobi Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Slaughterhouse or no slaughterhouse... They take anything as being good, the governments. Prabhupāda: Because government "by the people." Brahmānanda: By the fools and rascals. Prabhupāda: Yes. "Government for the people, by the people." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Democracy idea. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is democracy. Brahmānanda: Usually their philosophy is that anyone has the liberty to do whatever he likes as long as it doesn't hurt another, as long as it doesn't infringe on another's liberty. Prabhupāda: Then how you are killing the animals? [break] ...eat meat, therefore you are killing poor animals. Why you are interfering others' life? [break] ...the best park here. [break] Here there is no such park. Brahmānanda: Really? Prabhupāda: Nice park. [break] Cyavana: ...agricultural. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All opulent. Cyavana: Yes. All fruits... Prabhupāda: Yes. Cyavana: ...and flowers. Jñāna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Kenya the great majority of people live in the country rather than the towns. Prabhupāda: That's nice. "Country is made of God, and city is made by man." That is the remark by poet Cowper. Jñāna: How may we best expand our movement into the rural areas or into the country areas? Prabhupāda: So, Brahmānanda, explain our scheme. Harikeśa: Explain our scheme. Cyavana: About the rural development village program. *Brahmānanda: Of making the men self*-sufficient in cloth, foodstuffs, milk products, grains. Cyavana: There's a map. [break] Jñāna: ...program like the Christians. Prabhupāda: Explain how to... Explain. Brahmānanda: Of having a... Encouraging the people to..., first by having kīrtana and prasādam. [break] Prabhupāda: This is the process. Some how or other, they should join, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare..." Then everything... It is not very difficult. Simply induce them to chant. That will make everything success. Jñāna: We have been spending some time in a small town. *Prabhupāda: Anywhere, hell or heaven, it doesn't matter. You induce people to chant. This is the sum and substance of devotee. It doesn't matter whether it is town, city, village. Wherever you go, you gather people and induce them by flattering them, by falling their, on their leg*-some way or other, induce them. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya. This is the process shown by Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, that "My dear sir, I have come to you with great humbleness, taking a straw in my mouth." Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya: "And falling down on your lotus feet." Kaku-satam kṛtva: "And I am trying to please you by so many flattering words." Kṛtva ahaṁ bravimi: "I have got some submission, if you'll kindly hear." So who is that man who will deny? If you fall down on his feet and take a straw and very humbly you pray, "Sir, I have got something to say if you kindly hear," who will deny? Who is that man? Even rogues, rascals, he'll also agree: "Yes, you can say what you want to do." This is the process. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya kaku-satam kṛtva ca ahaṁ bravimi. "I want to submit. Will you kindly hear?" So any rogue, rascal, gentleman, big, small, learned-everyone will agree. Is it not, if you submit like that, that with great humbleness and flattering him, "Falling down on your feet, I want to submit something"? Huh? What do you think? Jñāna: I think it's wonderful. Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is the... This is the process. So this is the process. So now, when he will say, "All right, you can say what you want to say," then, he sādhava: "You are a great personality, nobleman." He may be a loafer class, (laughter) but give him all honor: "You are so great and so exalted," he sādhava, "and so honest." He sādhava. "My only submission is that whatever you have learned, you forget. Whatever nonsense you have learned..." Don't say "nonsense." (laughter) But we must know that he is a pakkā, rascal, nonsense. (laughs) So don't say directly, "nonsense." Say, "You are the great personality. So kindly, whatever you have learned, forget." "Then what shall I do?" He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya durāt: "Kick out whatever you nonsense learned." "Then what shall I do?" Now, caitanya*-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam: "Kindly be submissive to Lord Caitanya, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This is our program. No argument. Because he is a rascal, what is the use of arguing with him? He's a rascal number one. You know that. You cannot expect any good argument from the rascals and fools. Where is the logic? Their logic is to beat them with shoes. That is the only logic. But that, if you do that, then you'll not be able to preach. But otherwise that is the only logic, to beat them with shoes. Argumentum vaculum. You know this logic? In logic we have read. There is one logic, argumentum... You know this? Cyavana: That is Latin. Girl devotee (1): Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. You know? What is that? Argumentum vaculum? Hm? With fools and rascals, with animals, there is no logic. Take the stick and beat them. The dog, if he is a dog, what is the argument with him? Take the stick and beat him; then he will go away. That is called argumentum baculum. That is, Sanskrit logic, also said, murkhasya laṭau śādhi (?) "One who is a fool, his only remedy is beating him with stick." This is material. But we are not doing anything material. It is all spiritual. Therefore, especially in this age, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, So we should preach like this, any rascal, because anyone who has no information of Kṛṣṇa, who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's a rascal. That's all. That we must know. That is definite. There is no mistaking it. But if you say that "You are rascal. There is no mistaking it," then you cannot preach. If you directly call a rascal a rascal, he'll be angry. Murkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śanta...: To give good instruction to a fool rascal will increase his anger, that's all." Then you'll not be able to preach. So you have to become very humble, tṛṇād api sunīcena, humbler than the grass. Just like everyone is trampling over the grass. It doesn't protest, "Why you are going, keeping your leg on my head?" But that is the... Tṛṇād api sunīcena. Go on trampling. Hundreds' and hundreds' people are trampling over the grass; *they don't protest. Tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. The tree is standing. You sit down. When there is scorching heat, you take pleasure by sitting down under the shade. But the reward is that you cut the branches. That is their reward. He gives you shelter, and you cut the branch. You cut the whole tree. This is your gratefulness. You see? Because we are rascals, we do not know what is gratefulness. They are taking milk from the cow and killing. This is our proposal. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu advises, taror api sahiṣṇunā*-tolerant, humbler than the grass. Amāninā mānadena. Don't expect any honor for your person, but to the others give honor: "Oh, you are most exalted person," although he's a rascal. What can be done? Otherwise you cannot preach. If you call a rascal a rascal, immediately your preaching will be stopped. So you have to say that "You are the greatest intelligent man, sādhu, most honored. The only request is that you forget what you have learned. That's all. And take this." In this way preaching practical. Otherwise it is not possible. Everyone is thinking he is the most exalted personality, scientist, philosopher, great man. That is material disease. Actually he is being kicked every moment by the urges of the senses, and he is thinking he is very great man. Go-dāsa. Go means senses. He is always, I mean, curbed down by the sense urges, and he is thinking, "independent." Independent means servant of the senses. This is going on. So you have to understand the real position of the world, and if you want to preach, then you have to (be) humbler than the tree, humbler than the grass, tolerant than the tree and... We know everyone is rascal; still, you have to give him honor. Then it will be possible to say something. Otherwise it is very difficult. We have to deal with all rascals, fools, rogues, ruffians, all good qualificat..., like. This is... You must know these things. You are dealing with all rascals. So if we call them directly "rascal," they will be angry. Your preaching will not be successful. So follow the principles enunciated by Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī and Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Jñāna: When they ask us about Lord Caitanya, "Who is this Lord Caitanya?" what may we tell them? *Prabhupāda: "Yes, you'll understand. Please kindly chant Hare Kṛṣṇa now. You'll understand." When we say, "Follow the instruction of Caitanya," means chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. What Caitanya said? Caitanya said, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ: [Cc. Ādi 17.31] "Always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. So you'll know Caitanya, what He is, later on. For the time being, Caitanya says that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You do it, and then you will be able very easily. At the present moment, simply if you want to know-I explain Caitanya*-it will be not possible for you. Better chant. Take His instruction. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... Where they are going? To work? Girl devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: What is the time for their joining? *Indian man (2): Between six*-thirty and seven o'clock. Prabhupāda: And how long they'll work? Indian man (2): They will work up to twelve, one o'clock. Then they go home. Then they come back again at four o'clock and... Prabhupāda: That is Indian. In India also the servant like that. Then remains up to nine o'clock. Indian man (2): But those who are far away, they go at six o'clock. [break] Jñāna: But if the devotees, if they go and live in small groups amongst the people, for example, in the country instead of just in big city temples, then we can influence more people, get more people chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Good idea. But whether you will be able to live? Better go from the city to the interior, come back. Cyavana: To remain there for long is difficult. Jñāna: It's difficult. Cyavana: Yes. We've had experience. Prabhupāda: You go, just in Europe, America, they are going in buses in interior, and they're preaching then coming back. Jñāna: So this should be our program. Prabhupāda: (softly) [break] Indian lady (3): ...go house to house or at the time of their function there are ladies gathering there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian lady (3): When the ladies are gathering their own function, just like... Prabhupāda: What function? Indian lady (3): On Maṅgalbara they and... Here usually they do like that. Prabhupāda: Let them come. Brahmānanda: Let them come to our function rather than going to their function. *Prabhupāda: Their function means recreation. That is not function. By that function they'll... But it is... Something is better than nothing. That is another thing. Arto 'rthārthī jijñāsur jñānī*-four kinds of men, they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the arto 'rthārthī. Ārtaḥ means distressed, and arthārthī means those who are in need of money. So they are arto 'rthārthī, and better than the rogues and ruffians, but their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, chanting Kṛṣṇa, means they want to get some money and to get out of some distress. That is ninety-nine percent people. And some of them are jñānī. They want to learn about Kṛṣṇa very seriously, not to fulfill their material desires. They are called jñānī. Jñānī and jijñāsu, inquisitive. So in jnani, those who are after knowledge, and inquisitive, they are better than this arta and arthārthī. But devotee is transcendental to all of them. They are neither arto, not distressed, nor in need of money. They do not want to speculate for knowledge or... They know, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, and if I am part and parcel of the Supreme, it is my duty to serve Him to My best capacity." That is real bhakti. And those who are trying to exploit Kṛṣṇa for their, some material fulfillment of desire, they are not on the platform of bhakta. They are pious, not bhakta. A bhakta is above piety. Bhakta's position is sarvopadhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. He is cent percent pure, without any mat... These are all material things. But beginning is all right. If you go to the fire, some way or other you will get the heat. So either be arta, arthārthī, jñānī, jijñāsu, if you somehow or other, you have come to Kṛṣṇa, it is good for you. There are many private functions like that you said? Indian lady (3): Yes. Here always, twice in a week. Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian lady (3): Here always there will be function twice in a week. Prabhupāda: Oh, twice in a week. So which are the days? Indian lady (3): Usually they keep on Tuesday and Friday. Brahmānanda: There are many, the ladies' satsang mandalas and... Prabhupāda: Ladies, not lords. (laughter) Indian lady (3): No. Yes, only ladies Prabhupāda: They are better. It doesn't matter ladies or lord. Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious is good. Striyo śūdras tathā vaiśyas te 'pi yānti param. It doesn't matter whether woman, śūdra or vaiśya. If he is... If she is or he is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone. Lilāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We were thinking that unless the African people can see an example of a devotee, they won't continuously chant. They will chant while we are there and then they will forget. Prabhupāda: Why don't you become an example yourself? Lilāvatī: So to live amongst them, we were thinking, is very important. Prabhupāda: You become an example by your behavior. Example is better than precept. [break] Jñāna: ...to attain the necessary finances to support the programs here. Prabhupāda: Beg. Sell book. That's all. Otherwise how you get finance? Jñāna: One idea is to have a farm that we sell fruit or vegetables, like that. Prabhupāda: If you open farm for financial help, then it will not be successful. You should take to farming for supporting yourself. That's all. Grow your own food. Grow your own cloth. There is no need of financial help from outside. You get your food grains sufficiently, rice, dahl, wheat, vegetables, milk, sugar. Bas You get everything. From these five, six items you should be economically free. That you have to do, not for trade to get money. Then it will be failure. Indian lady (3): Can we purchase the house for our own staying? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because this is necessary. You must have some shelter; you must eat; *you must cover. That is necessary. So you do it. Grow food first of all to feed yourself sumptuously. You must get strength, and that is needed. But not for trade. The policy should be that you should be self*-sufficient and save time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is wanted. Yavad-ārtha prayojanam. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhi-daḥ. You shall eat whatever you require for proper upkeep of the body, not eating too much and sleeping whole day. Don't do that. Eat only what is absolutely necessary. Then you'll never be in want. People are engaged in material civilization means they are increasing the bodily demands, unnecessary. Just like this park. Why we have come to this park? We like this atmosphere. So similarly, in villages, everyone, if he has got some land, he can live simply without any gorgeous building. What is the use? Just have a cottage and have garden. You'll live very peacefully. But they're constructing big, big skyscraper building in the downtown, and they will have to come here by car for some peace of mind, and in the meantime, accident, police. This is the civilization, nonsense civilization. At weekend they will go to the village, country, and during the week-time they will work hard. This is their civilization, with the risk of life, running motor car eighty miles' speed. Every moment there is risk. What is this civilization? Most ludicrous civilization. So farming means if you live in a farm... Just like in New Vrindaban they are doing. Produce your own food, live peacefully, fresh vegetable, fresh grains, fresh milk, and prepare so many nice milk preparation, kachori, halavā with ghee. Offer to the Deity. Eat sufficiently. What is the use of going outside? Simple life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you can organize that, that will be very nice. Jñāna: A nice program here. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this rascal civilization, whole day "Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money?" Everyone. Busy means "Where is money? Where is money?" Just like the hog, he is busy: "What time...? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" That is not civilization. If you remain always busy, "Where is stool?" like the hog, then what is your civilization? Whole day working, night, nightshift, dayshift, whole day, the same, like hog. Brahmānanda: They hold more than one job. They have two jobs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Get money and then drink wine and eat meat and do all nonsense things. This is their civilization. Jñāna: A farm means also we may engage the people because they are not so... *Prabhupāda: First of all be engaged yourself. Then they will see the example and they'll join. Just like in our New Vrindaban. Other men from other farms, they are coming, and they are offered this milk preparation, burfi, sandeṣa, rasagullā, rabri, so many, halavā. They become: "Oh, so many nice things can be prepared from milk?" They do not know, uncivilized. Cut the animal and eat. A most crude civilization. When people were not civilized, they used to do that. Civilization means you know, you must know how to live very nicely. That is civilization. But they do not know even that. Simply eating meat and wine, meat and wine, that's all. And this is going on as civilization. They do not know what is the meaning of civilization. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. Real civilization means to understand God. Here is God. Who'll accept, either you say God or nature, that "You are under control. You are not free."? That, this dog's obstinacy, they will not take it. Like a dog. What is the meaning of dog obstinacy? He'll go on disturbing, "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" This is dog consciousness. How they can refuse, that "There is no authority"? They say, "No, we don't care for authority. Don't." But you are being kicked every moment: still, there is no authority? Just see obstinacy. Why you are becoming old? Every moment you are being kicked. You cannot remain young. You are trying to remain young with pomade, with some color, with some this, tea, wig, and... But you cannot, rascal. You cannot. You must become old. And still, he is thinking that he'll be able to remain young. This is called dog's obstinacy. He has got experience that nobody can remain young. I'll also not remain young also, although I want it, "Yes, if I can remain young, that is good facility." That he knows, but he won't find the way how he can remain... Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Nitya. That path he will not take. Kṛṣṇa says, "Here is the way." Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam adyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanam [Bs. 5.33]. Kṛṣṇa, the oldest man, oldest living being, but nava-yauvana, always fresh, young... You can get that position. You can play also, play Kṛṣṇa. But that path they will not take. Kṛṣṇa, ever-existingly young man, He is displaying in Vṛndāvana and inviting, "You can also come and join and live like this." "No. That's all. It is all fictitious. There was no Kṛṣṇa. There is no such thing." Immediately dismiss judgment. And by pomade, by injection, by, what is called? Hormone? All these rascals, they are trying to be young. Just see. You are doctor. Can you make young men with this... Indian lady (3): Temporary they give hormone. Prabhupāda: What is this temporary? Temporary means... Indian lady (3): Temporary they get to be God. Prabhupāda: One Marwari man, very rich man, he eighty years old, he wanted to change the hormones to remain... Indian lady (3): Yes. That was in Indore. Prabhupāda: Indore, yes. Indian lady (3): Kukumcha. Prabhupāda: Kukumcha. Yes, you know. Indian lady (3): He got the glands from the monkey. Prabhupāda: Just see. But where is now Kukumcha? Indian lady (3): Now he is no more. Prabhupāda: So Kukum, finished. (laughter) Kukum means order. So he thought... Kukum means order. Indian lady (3): He was very rich. He used to... *Prabhupāda: I know that. In Calcutta, Kukumcha. This firm was very big. One of the richest Marwari. So eighty years old, he wanted to change the hormone to become young. Not only... There are many Marwaris. You know the (name witheld)? (name witheld)? His elder brother, (name witheld). His only business is to keep one wife and have a big establishment. He has got four, five wives-one Bengali, one U.P., one Marwari, one this*-and each wife's establishment not less than ten thousand per month. And his business is morning to this wife and evening to this wife and noon to this wife, this wife. And he is old man. The wives do not care for him, and she is doing everything whatever, with the secretary. That's all. It is going on. I have seen. I was guest in his home, and this rascal is doing this. He is earning money, black market, white market, this mar... At any cost, and spending like this. That's all. There are many persons. Oh, in Europe also, the same thing. In Paris very, very old men, seventy-five years old, eighty years, they go to the night club. Entrance fee fifty dollar, then pay for the woman, wine. Spend few hours and spend two hundred, three hundred, five hundred dollars-go home. Then tranquilizer pill and sleep. This is going on. Therefore mūḍha. Harikeśa: They've found with this monkey gland operation also that you become like a monkey after a while, that you develop lots of hair and jaw becomes prominent. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Harikeśa: Yes. They've found that. Prabhupāda: Why don't you try for it? (laughter) You are supporter of Darwin's theory. (laughter) Harikeśa: They may find them swinging through the trees. Prabhupāda: Jump over from tree to tree. I have seen here. There is... Brahmānanda: Yes. Cyavana: In this area there are monkeys. *Prabhupāda: Very... and they are also chased by another bird, monkey*-eating bird. They'll go and capture and take him and throw him in the ground, and he falls down and dies. Then the bird eats. You know the monkey-eating birds? I have seen in Los Angeles zoo. Not very big, but they want to eat monkeys. *Harikeśa: Oh, the monkey*-eating birds in Los... Yes. *Prabhupāda: So for eating, sleeping, mating and defending, everyone has got full intelligence. This monkey*-eating bird also knows how to do his job. So that is not intelligence. Even this lowest-class bird, they... Even small flies, they also know all tricks how to exist, struggle for existence. *Harikeśa: Once in Vṛndāvana you were sitting in your room, and I had some bananas on the right*-hand side. Do you remember this? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: The monkey opened the door while we were all sitting there, stole the bananas, and raced out again. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Many times, many times. When I was in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple I was eating, and they will open the door and take my food. And who is going to struggle with him? Whole bunch of capatis. Even raw dough taken away. *Harikeśa: We were once walking in the road right in front of Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple holding some prasādam, and the monkey came from a tree and knocked down... Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: ...the devotee and stole the prasādam and ran away. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jñāna: I heard they take the devotees' tape recorders and trade them for bananas in the market. I heard. Prabhupāda: They are intelligent. Indian lady (3): They want to get purified by getting prasādam from... *Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not... (laughter) "Some devotees come here to become purified"*-no. "Where is tape recorder? Where is camera?" They find out and take it away. We have got experience. What is this bird chirping? Cyavana: There are many varieties here. Prabhupāda: In Bengal there is bird. Bengali is also. Every village is a garden like this, and these birds live in such nice garden. Bengal, it is now deserted. Otherwise wherever you go, it is garden. You have seen pukka? Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: When we go from Calcutta to Māyāpur, simply garden. All banana trees, all coconut trees, mango trees, nice green field. But they cannot maintain. Formerly they were maintaining. All gentlemen used to live within the village, they used to take care. Now all gentlemen, they have left. They have gone to the city. Only poor men are there. They cannot maintain. Brahmānanda: We stopped one time at the home of that minister. He had his home on that road with big gardens. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tarun. Brahmānanda: Tarun Kanti Ghosh. Lush gardens, big lake. That was the Bengal system. Big, big lakes, garden. Unless respectable rich men live in the village... Just like this. This is a nice garden because government is maintaining. So unless there are rich men, who will maintain? Poor men cannot maintain. It is cloudy today. But in..., climate is nice, very pleasant. Jñāna: From day to day it is changing. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jñāna: From day to day it is changing. Even this afternoon it may be very clear. Prabhupāda: This city park is very big. Devotee (4): It goes in that direction. Prabhupāda: We shall go now? Brahmānanda: Yes, Prabhupāda. [break] *Cyavana: The soul is all*-pervading, throughout the body. Prabhupāda: No, no. What he questions, you did not hear? Cyavana: Are there many living entities within the body? Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know that? Cyavana: Yes. There are other living entities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cyavana: In the stomach... Prabhupāda: But you do not know that. Jñāna: I understood that. Prabhupāda: Then why you are asking? There're so many worms in your intestine. Jñāna: For example, the cells in the body. Are they also... Prabhupāda: Whatever you say, there are many. Cells are not living entities. [break] Cyavana: That's the beginning. [break] Prabhupāda: ...come gradually. But this particular body belongs to a particular living entity. Jñāna: Actually, my doubt was about the cells, whether they were living entities or... [break] Prabhupāda: Living entity quits this body, no other living entity will be able to... Cyavana: Maintain. Prabhupāda: It belongs to the particular. That is the rascal philosophy of the rascal scientists. They say some chemical is missing. Why chemical missing? There are so many other living entities, how they are living? If the chemical is missing, how they are living? This is rascaldom. If you say when the body is dead, the chemical is missing, then why so many hundreds and thousands of microbes are coming? Huh? (Hindi) Therefore I say rascals. (end) Morning Walk -- October 29, 1975, Nairobi *Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā mano-rathenāsato dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. Nondevotees, they are simply pulled on by the mental speculation: "This will be very nice. This will be very nice." Mano rathena on the chariot of mind... Asataḥ, material. Asat means material, "that will not exist." They will be busy in such things. Real, eternal necessity, they'll not be interested. They do not know. "Now, this beautiful city, it is my city, my country. Everything all right." But he has no knowledge that "After fifty years, when I shall die, where will be my city next?" That he does not know. For the time being, I shall be able to live here for twenty-five years or fifty years. That's all right. And next time, where I am going... A commonsense affair. *Cyavana: That's a third*-class mentality, to be satisfied with that city..., Prabhupāda: Temporary... Cyavana: Simply to have a city and be satisfied. Prabhupāda: That's all. *Cyavana: Third*-class mentality. Prabhupāda: Yes. He's eternal. He does not know his eternal necessity. This is called ignorance. [break] You brought that sitting mat? Brahmānanda: Use our chaddars. (end) Room Conversation -- October 29, 1975, Nairobi *Prabhupāda: prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ. By pleasing the spiritual master, you please Kṛṣṇa. That's nice. But why Kṛṣṇa should be pleased? Why? What is the necessity of pleasing Kṛṣṇa? Devotee (1): To please the representative of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is all right. Guru is representative of Kṛṣṇa, but why one should bother himself for pleasing Kṛṣṇa? Answer this. Devotee (1): 'Cause our real position is to serve Kṛṣṇa, and because we've fallen in this illusion of the material energy, so we forgot our position. Prabhupāda: We shall do it otherwise. Why shall I please Kṛṣṇa? We are making scientific progress. What is the use of bringing God? Devotee (2): Because we shall never become perfect or see the answer. Prabhupāda: That is begging the question. Indian man (3): For spreading the name of the Kṛṣṇa, in the world. Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not the question of guru. Guru is doing all right. Why you should be so much anxious and feel obligation to please Kṛṣṇa? Indian (4): Everybody has to serve somebody, so Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of all pleasure and everything exists from Him. So instead of serving anybody, we should serve the Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: "That's all right. Without serving Kṛṣṇa, I am getting pleasure by drinking wine. Why shall I...?" Cyavana: That pleasure will not last. That pleasure is only temporary. Prabhupāda: "No, I will not also last. (laughter) that..." Cyavana: But to accept such a mentality, we say that is third class. Actually our life is eternal. Prabhupāda: That is your statement, "third class," but my statement is "It is first class." (laughter) Harikeśa: Is it first class if every time you are going to eat something nice I was standing over you with a stick, and as soon as you took, I would beat you? So every time you have some enjoyment, there is some concurrent suffering. Like you enjoy the wine, but then you have a headache, hangover. You enjoy. Then you get sick. *Cyavana: Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā in the Tenth Chapter, He says, "For those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I will give the understanding by which they can come to Me." So this is our desire. Prabhupāda: "I don't want to go." Cyavana: You don't want to go to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: "Yes." Harikeśa: All right, suffer. (laughter) Prabhupāda: "I don't suffer. (laughter) I am enjoying." Harikeśa: You are enjoying death and old age? Prabhupāda: "Yes, you are putting upon me some impression, 'suffering,' but I am enjoying." Harikeśa: Your knee is hurt. Is that enjoying? Prabhupāda: "That I am curing. That is also nice." (laughter) Harikeśa: But soon the whole thing will be finished. You will not... No one enjoys death. No one will take voluntarily a death pill. Prabhupāda: Nobody of you could answer the question. Now I give you again chance to answer this question very properly. Why one should be obliged to please Kṛṣṇa? Why? Harikeśa: Just like this finger. Its position is to serve the body. Just like the stomach. Everyone may be jealous of the stomach and not want to feed the stomach, but if all the hands and the legs and the mouth went on strike not to feed the stomach... Prabhupāda: This is the right answer. Harikeśa: ...they would ultimately be destroyed. *Prabhupāda: This is right answer, that you cannot non*-cooperate with the stomach. You must serve the stomach. Otherwise your position is very precarious. That is the answer. If the finger thinks that "I shall remain independent and be happy," that is not possible. The stomach must be supplied food, and then all the parts of the body, they'll be happy. That is the point. So you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the central enjoyer. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. He is the center. Just like ordinarily this African state, if you do not satisfy the state or the president, then you cannot remain happy. Independently you cannot be happy. We require in every step sta... We have come to this park because state is cooperating. In the morning we shall come, and they have prepared it nicely. We are not going to the jungle. So if we actually want happiness we must cooperate with the state. This is crude example. Similarly, if our ultimate aim is to become happy, then we must cooperate with Kṛṣṇa. This is obligatory. You cannot escape it. Then you'll be unhappy. This is the... Stomach. Pranopaharac ca yathendriyanam. Therefore the natural process is you pick up... A child even. He picks up some something, but he does not put anywhere-immediately in the mouth. Why he does not bring it in the ear? Why? The child immediately takes it. He does not know what is what. But the nature is that as soon as he captures something, even he does not know... Because his position is eating, he knows this much, sense gratification. Other senses are not yet developed. So the child, he knows taste with tongue and eats. That he knows. So immediately anything he captures, he brings to the mouth, naturally. He hasn't got to be educated. So our position is like that. We being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, our natural tendency is to serve Kṛṣṇa. Natural tendency. It is not artificial. When you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is artificial. So our normal life means to love Kṛṣṇa, to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is our normal life. Without serving Kṛṣṇa our life is abnormal, madman's life. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says... When you forget Kṛṣṇa, He comes to preach the normal life. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. This is normal life. So Kṛṣṇa does not require your help. He can create many helpers. But for your good Kṛṣṇa comes, that "If you want normal, happy life, then surrender unto Me." This is the proposal. Therefore the whole Bhagavad-gītā, all Vedic knowledge, is there. We have forgotten our position. Our posit..., normal position, is to love and serve Kṛṣṇa. Therefore anādi bahir mukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa karila. Because we do not know... From time immemorial we cannot ascertain when this incidents have happened, to forget Kṛṣṇa, but it is practically... Life after life, life after life, we are changing body, but forgetting Kṛṣṇa. So here, in the human form of life, there is the opportunity to revive our original position, and we require the help of knowledge, perfect knowledge. And that is there in the Vedas. Atha eva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa karila. If we don't take advantage, although we have got... We can read Bhagavad-gītā, and if we don't take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and go on whimsically, then we'll suffer. You cannot non-cooperate with Kṛṣṇa as you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. This is the... You must. There is no question of alternative. You may, may not know. It is not. You must. This is the position. Otherwise you'll never be happy. And happiness is your aim of life. Atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ. We are... I'm suffering from this knee's trouble because I am in this material world. I have got this material body. So atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ means no more material world, no more material body. And for that purpose we have to cooperate with Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is not possible. Any question about this? Just like these African women. They are going to work. There is no question of no work. They must. Otherwise they cannot eat. Anyone, if by working his livelihood is going on, how he can non-cooperate? This is not possible. Brahmānanda: The thief is also eating. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's grace, just like the government gives the prisoners also to eat. But they are condemned. And government's grace that government provides all necessities. If a prisoner is sick, he is given the hospital facility. But he is restricted free movement, that much. Otherwise government gives the same facilities within the prison house and without the... The standard may be little different. Eko yo bahūnāṁ (yo) vidadhāti kamān. He satis... Why this human being prisoner? Even He is giving food to the animals, to the birds, beasts, everyone. Noncooperation cannot be. Kṛṣṇa says, bijo 'haṁ sarva*-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10]. Now, you have to grow trees, plants and vegetables for your eating. So that you cannot have without cooperation with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa gives all the seeds. Bijo 'ham. You cannot manufacture the seed. He gives the seed. You work little, sow it and get the result. But without cooperation with Kṛṣṇa, how can you get the seed? Then where is your food? No food. You must take... "God, give us our daily bread." Kṛṣṇa gives the seeds, and you sow it and get the fruit or grains. Then you can exist. Even if you are animal-eater, the animal must also come from Kṛṣṇa. You cannot manufacture the animal. That is also coming from Kṛṣṇa. Bijo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10]. The animal is produced by father and mother, but the seed is given in the semina by Kṛṣṇa. And then animal is produced. So how you can non-cooperate Kṛṣṇa? You have to cooperate. Otherwise... (man yelling in background) What is that? (laughter) Huh? They are criticizing us? No. Brahmānanda: He's imitating the birds. Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughter) Just like this tendency was exhibited by Kṛṣṇa. In the forest the two brothers and other cowherds boys, they were also imitating. They were flying. The bird is flying; they were also flying like this. And coming to the monkey, coming to the peacock and imitating the..., like this. These are description in the Kṛṣṇa book. Brahmānanda: But his imitating the bird means he will become a bird? Prabhupāda: Hm? Brahmānanda: This man's imitating the bird means that he will become a bird. Prabhupāda: Not necess... This is sporting. It will be decided what he is thinking at the time of death. That will become prominent. Brahmānanda: Is it by chance what you think of at the time of death or is... Prabhupāda: No. Brahmānanda: ...it dependent? Prabhupāda: It is dependent. Just like all of a sudden some idea come to us. That means we had contact with such idea. It is compared with... Just like there is a big pond. All of a sudden, you see, from within a bubble comes "phut!" There is no reason, but it comes. That means the thing is there within the pond, the situation. All of a sudden, without any time, it comes. They put this chance theory like this. But this is not chance. If... Because we are changing our life, so everything is recorded in the mind, dictaphone. So sometimes some idea which I had contact with many, many years ago, it comes. It comes. It is not chance. I had contact with such thing. All of a sudden, that idea comes. We shall go now. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: [break] ...I am in the car, they offer me. Woman: Oh, all African, small boys. Prabhupāda: They understand this is good. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I understand Kṛṣṇa is the Personality of Godhead, and He is the one who create this material world. So my impression is Kṛṣṇa, He didn't make this material world to be spiritual? Prabhupāda: It is spiritual as soon as you become a devotee, spiritual. We are living in the spiritual world. That I explained last night. So ultimately there is nothing material. Material means when you forget Kṛṣṇa. That is material. Devotee (1): My question, Prabhupāda, was... *Prabhupāda: There is no material. When you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Just like madness. Madness is not our natural position, but when your brain is deranged, then it is madness. Madness has no separate existence, but when our brain is not in order, there is madness. Similarly, there is nothing material, because everything has come from Kṛṣṇa. The original source is Kṛṣṇa. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. So the material world, the so-called material world, has come from Kṛṣṇa. So if it has come from Kṛṣṇa how it is material? The cause and effect is the same, maybe differently manifested. Just like cotton, cotton made into thread, the shape has changed, but it is cotton. And from the cotton thread, you make cloth. The cloth is cotton. But if I say, "Cotton. Bring cotton," then you'll bring cotton, not this cloth. But the cloth is also cotton. Now understand? Cloth is nothing but cotton. But when I say "Bring cotton," you'll not bring a cloth. You'll bring cotton. So the Kṛṣṇa is the sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1], cause of all effects. So all the effects are Kṛṣṇa. But you have no such realization. When you understand that this place is Kṛṣṇa's place, so you can worship Kṛṣṇa, glorify Kṛṣṇa. But if you don't realize that it is Kṛṣṇa's, then you talk nonsense, madman. "This is American property," "It is African property," "It is this. It is that," so many madness. But the śāstra says, iśavāsyam idam, everything Kṛṣṇa's. And the materialists, they'll pro... "No. Why everything? It is my country. It is my place." That is material. Similarly, anything coming from Kṛṣṇa-Kṛṣṇa is supreme spirit*-it is spiritual. The devotees, they understand that "This fruit has come from Kṛṣṇa. The flower has come from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it must be offered to Kṛṣṇa. It is for use." Otherwise how the fruit becomes spiritual? We take prasādam. How it becomes..., the same fruit? No. Because the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there, it is spiritual. It is spiritual, but it was not known. When one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he understands that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Hari-sambhandhi vastūnaḥ. Everything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That's the fact. So if anything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa, so that is not material. We are going to a house, but it is said "temple." Why? Because there is relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise where is the difference between the next house and our house? So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that everything is spiritual, but we do not accept it. We accepted something else. That is material. *Devotee (1): From all scriptures you instructed us in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that we should not jump from book to book, but I am so much attached to them that I read every book. Would that stop me to understand the philosophy? Prabhupāda: Yes. By reading, you'll understand. Hm? What is that? *Brahmānanda: He's asking that it states in part one of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that one should not jump to the Tenth Canto without having read all the previous. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Knowledge has got step. You are learning ABCD. How you can go to higher studies? Brahmānanda: But the prabhu is feeling that he likes to read all of your books and sometimes he reads one book and sometimes another book. Is that bad? Prabhupāda: No, that is not bad, but better go by step by step. Devotees: Jaya. Haribol. (end) Brahmānanda: City Hall is also there. United Nations has offices in that big building. They study the environment. It's environmental study. Prabhupāda: That is another scheme. For the last thirty, forty years they could not study. "In future, we shall be happy." Indian: Monday, president, he was addressing that Kaiser(?) affair in the next park. So there was even one helicopter. So they came to throw off flowers on him in the gathering. But suddenly the helicopter fell down there on the train. There was train was going on. Brahmānanda: No, it was a jet plane. Cyavana(?): It was a jet. Yes, one of the jets fell down. Brahmānanda: They had the air force here. They have four jet planes. Cyavana: Fighter jets. Brahmānanda: Fighter jets, four of them only. And during the national celebration they fly in procession. So one of them fell down, killing the pilots. Prahupada: Just see. Brahmānanda: These are very old jets that were supplied by the British. (Prabhupāda laughs) They're so proud of their four airplanes. Now they only have three. Prabhupāda: Could not replace the other one. Brahmānanda: I don't know if they've replaced it or not. Cyavana: That's the British scheme. Brahmānanda: They give them these things to "civilize" them. *Prabhupāda: (chanting japa*-break) Nice. [break] You have meeting in this park? Brahmānanda: Yes. Just on the other side of the road, the city park. Cyavana: We used to come here on Sunday with that truck and have meetings in the afternoon. Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda came here. Cyavana: Yes. There was one meeting one Sunday. Prabhupāda: [break]...the name of this park? Cyavana: It means freedom. When they were able to obtain their freedom from the British rule they made this park and they called it Uhuru Park. Prabhupāda: How they got freedom? Cyavana: They had to fight. Prabhupāda: Fight? Cyavana: Yes, they had to fight. Prabhupāda: Regular violence? Cyavana: Oh, yes. Very violent. Brahmānanda: They would go into the farm... The Europeans owned all the farms. And they would go in vans with these knives and just cut everyone in the farm. Prabhupāda: Oh. Cyavana: They cut everyone up into small chunks. Prabhupāda: Huh? Brahmānanda: They cut them into pieces. Cyavana: Into small pieces. Prabhupāda: Accha? Cyavana: Yes, small chunks. Prabhupāda: Ferocious. Cyavana: Oh yes, very. Brahmānanda: And it just happened recently, one political opposition leader, he was brought to some place near Nairobi and he was... His genitals were cut off, his eyes were... Prabhupāda: Plucked out. Cyavana: Then he was shot. Brahmānanda: Then he was shot. Prabhupāda: African? Brahmānanda: There was a big scandal because the police were implicated. Prabhupāda: This parking plan are made by them? Brahmānanda: I don't know. Cyavana: The park itself? Prahupada: Yes. Cyavana: This park? The British. They designed all these parks and roads. *Brahmānanda: I know that other park-yesterday or the other day we went*-that was done by the British. They've taken plants from all over East Africa. Prabhupāda: All these buildings are constructed by the Britishers. Cyavana: Some Indian organizations, firms, come also. Big construction companies from India, they are combined. Brahmānanda: Usually, in all of the business concerns here, the top man is British, managing their activity. Prabhupāda: So when they kill such brutally in the farm, the Britisher did not take any step? Brahmānanda: Not very effective steps. They declared a state of emergency, and they brought soldiers here, and they had huge arrests. They had camps just outside of Nairobi, and they were arresting tens of thousands, huge camps. But the tactics that they would use, the Africans, the British soldiers couldn't... Prabhupāda: They brought British soldiers or Indian soldiers? Brahmānanda: I'm not sure. Prabhupāda: British soldiers, so long, how they'll come? They were using Indian soldiers. Indian: I know that Indian peoples, they helped them to get this freedom. That is the reason they have a little bit respect for the Indians now, this president. Prabhupāda: How Indian people helped them? Brahmānanda: They would give their... These groups of guerillas, the Indians would supply them and use their facilities and their farm houses. And then also, legally, the Indians were able to give, from their experience in India. They were able to make some government, some kind of a freedom government system. They agitated to get representation in the Parliament, and they became... When independence came there were many Indians as M.P.'s here. And even when Kenyatta was put on trial by the British, his chief lawyer was a Britisher, but the second lawyer was an Indian. Also the union movement was... One Indian, he helped organize the... Indian: I was talking with a judge. He is a Sikh gentleman here. So he told me that "In the freedom we all helped, and I was not a judge at that time. I was ordinary advocate. So I play a nice role to get them freedom, so they appointed me a judge after that." Now he is judge since last fifteen years. Prabhupāda: Oh. Cyavana: Is that Makhajee? Indian: No. Brahmānanda: The Indians had the experience of the independence in India to draw on for inspiration and also for their strategies and so on, to guide the Africans. Prabhupāda: And now they are trying to drive away Indians. Indian: Now they have brought a income tax official all from India here. So the Indian people, they were giving their money to the African and taking money to London and U.K., here and there. So now they have brought out from India. They are very strict. People still take money, but they have more to take than the African. The African people are very poor, and they were giving them so much money and taking money out of it. It is difficult for them. Prabhupāda: Yes. These people can be brought under control by bribing. There is no problem. They have no moral strength, and poor. They will accept bribe. I think by bribing it is still going on. Otherwise how they can stop this bribing? That is not possible. Cyavana: No. This is their major problem, the immigration authorities. Once the people come here and start to make their exploitation, they cannot get them out. So they make all kinds of artificial regulations. You have to have so much money. You have to have this, and that, your ticket, so many things, to try to stop people from coming here, because once they're here, they just pay their way, and then they get anything they want. *Prabhupāda: The simple method that everything belongs to God... The king is the representative of God, and he distributes the land amongst the kṣatriyas. Just like knighthood or in Mussulman times, subedat(?), and in Hindu times, the subordinate king. Just like Pāṇḍavas, they were the emperors, and under them there were many hundreds and thousands of kings, states. And everything belongs to God. So why fighting? Take it. It is God's property. We are all sons of God. But there is no culture, Aryan culture. They do not know how to live peacefully and cultivate spiritual culture. They do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśāya ye bahir-artha... [SB 7.5.31]. And durāśāya, bad hopes or hopes against hope, they're trying to be happy, bahir-artha, by the external energy, material, most fallen ideas, all foolish theories without any knowledge. Material, that's all. Bahir artha, external energy. Otherwise there is no cause of anxiety or distress. There is enough land. They can produce enough food and live peacefully. They are talking of peace, but they do not know how peace can be achieved. They are hankering after peace, but they do not know how to achieve peace. And that formula is given in the Bhagavad-gītā: Accept God as the proprietor; then there will be peace. Something stolen from the proprietor by some thieves, and when they sit down to take their shares, there will be fight. The property is stolen, and they are sharing. Now, one will say, "Oh, I have worked so hard. You are giving me so little share?" And others will say, "No, no, we have worked equally." Somebody, "No..." In this way there will be fight. Brahmānanda: This is going on in the United Nations now. Prabhupāda: It will go because they are all thieves. When the stolen property is to be divided, there will be fight. Cyavana: Like a band of pirates. They always fight amongst themselves and kill each other. *Prabhupāda: That is natural. When they plunder, they are united, and when they share, there will be fight. This is psychology. When plundering others' property they will unite and take the whole thing, and then, when they come for sharing, there will be fight. This is the psychology everywhere. Therefore there are so many parties. Just like in India the... Of course, Congress Party was the predominant to fight with the Britishers. And as soon as they got independence, so many hundred thousand parties grew up: the Congress Party, the RSS party, the Hindu*-mazara(?) party, the Muslim League party, this party, this party. And then they began to fight. This is the way. Senayor eva sa ucyate. All these thieves and rascal, rogues... God's property, why you should fight amongst themselves? Property belongs to somebody else. Insanity. Just like this is government park. Anyone can come in. Everyone can equally enjoy. So why not make the whole world as Kṛṣṇa's park? What is the difficulty? Actually it is the fact. Why do you claim? Now we have come. If you say, "No, this portion belongs to us," and another, "This portion belongs to us," then there will be fight. And if we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, every one of us, that if they see Kṛṣṇa's property, so let us enjoy. What is the cause of fighting? The hotels are the centers for all kinds of sinful activity. Huh? Illicit sex, drinking, gambling and meat-eating. No discrimination. *Brahmānanda: Near our temple there's a big... It's called the International Casino, and they advertise in the newspaper, and they have little drawings of people engaged in gambling, meat*-eating, show girls and intoxication. Cyavana: Alcohol. Prabhupāda: This is the only means of material enjoyment. Cyavana: This means they're constantly in fear. Prahupada: Must be. Cyavana: They must be fearing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bodily conception life means misery and fear. Brahmānanda: In Mauritius one of our life members, he's a contractor. He's constructing a hotel that has four floors. On one floor is the gambling casino, one floor is the restaurant, one floor is the cabaret, and one floor is the, also rooms for the women to stay. Prabhupāda: Naturally people are not very much interested in our movement. Brahmānanda: Because these four things that they are supporting, we are against. Indian: I asked that pilot who was staying in our Bombay, Juhu land. Prahupada: Ha ha. Mr. Sharma? Indian: Not Sharma. That pilot. He's a pilot. Brahmānanda: Oh, Ācārya. Prabhupāda: Oh, Ācārya. Indian: He was staying in the International Hotel, so I asked him, "Why don't you come and stay with us? Stay there and attend the Ārati and take Kṛṣṇa prasāda," but he refused. Cyavana: But he visited the temple here. Indian: He visited. He said, "No, hotel is good." *Prabhupāda: Once they are accustomed to take these four things, especially meat*-eating and drinking, it is not possible to give it up. Very difficult. Without drinking wine or without eating meat, they do not feel refreshed. Cyavana: They're in such anxiety all throughout the day that at night they cannot sleep unless they have a woman and some meat and some wine. Their minds cannot rest unless they take that. Prabhupāda: When we shall go? Cyavana: Shall we go now? Prabhupāda: No, I am asking when we shall go. Brahmānanda: At the temple, the Deities are open at seven o'clock. It's now twenty minutes after seven, so they're having ārati now. Ārati will be finished in just ten minutes. Prabhupāda: So we can go. (end) Morning Walk -- November 1, 1975, Nairobi Girl Devotee: ...lotus flower. Prabhupāda: All right. [break] They cannot enjoy. We are enjoying. Is it not? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are sleeping. They are thinking they are enjoying. Brahmānanda: One has to know what is enjoyment. Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be. We are utilizing it because we are fortunate. [break] ...explaining last night that earth, water, air, fire, they have come from Kṛṣṇa's energy. Can you explain how it has come? Any one of you. People may say that "You can say like that, but prove that the earth has come from Kṛṣṇa." *Devotee (1): You said last night... You mentioned a verse from the Bhagavad*-gītā, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8], that Kṛṣṇa is the source of everything. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is... Your scripture says, but I am a third person. Why shall I believe in your scripture? You prove. You are quoting from your own scripture. I don't take your scripture. You give me practical explanation how earth has come from Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (1): Well, one has to accept the scriptures. Prabhupāda: So that you may accept. Devotee (1): This is what Kṛṣṇa has left here five thousand years ago. Prabhupāda: "That's all right. It doesn't matter. That doesn't matter." Devotee (1): ...for your benefit, for everyone because you are part of Kṛṣṇa too. Prabhupāda: That is your saying. You prove that. Devotee (1): That's not my saying. That's the Supreme Lord's saying. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Indian man or Devotee (2): Like a child has to accept the authority of her mother to know about our father. Prabhupāda: That is all right, but you give some practical explanation that how earth has come from... Devotee (1): The only practical explanation we can have or any living entity has is that explanation which his father gives him, the Supreme Lord gives him. He has given us... Prabhupāda: That is all right. *Devotee (1): ...explanation in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Still, vijñāna means jñāna and viveka. Viveka means personal conviction. That is called vijñāna. Jñāna and vijñāna. One knowledge you get from me, and then you practically apply your consciousness that "Yes, what Prabhupāda has said, it is right." That is called vijñāna. One knowledge, accepting blindly from the authority, that is knowledge. But how it is practically made or done, that understanding is called vijñāna. Devotee (2): We have so many examples of... Prabhupāda: Give that example. That I wanted. Devotee (2): We have so many examples of scientific creations by intelligent brain, personalities on this planet, so many things which we can see, like the clothes we wear and the machines we are using in our everyday lives which require... Prabhupāda: So how Kṛṣṇa has prepared earth? That I want. Devotee (2): So we can see by studying the nature of the construction of this earth that it is much more intelligent... Prabhupāda: So how earth is coming from Kṛṣṇa? Tell me that. Devotee (3): The scientists say that this earth came from gases, but they cannot explain exactly where those gases have come from. That source, that is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, they do not know, but we know. How in your belly gas is formed? How? There was no gas, but automatically the gas is formed. And therefore sometimes, if it is much gas, then you go for treatment. So this is the practical. The gas is also generating from my body. So as I am an individual, insignificant body, if there is possibility of generating little gas, so Kṛṣṇa's gigantic body, why not gigantic volume of gas? This is the explanation. Jñāna: The materialistic scientists, they are saying that matter is energy. So we understand if it's energy there must be an energetic. Prabhupāda: Yes. So how the energetic is producing, this is common. Gas is forming. Just like you perspire, there is water. So one ounce of water may come from your body. So water is coming from your body, so why not from the gigantic body of Kṛṣṇa, the oceans, millions of oceans, come out? This should be the understanding. We see practically that water is coming out from my body. So it may be one ounce or less than that because my body is very small, but Kṛṣṇa's body is unlimited, so why not unlimited supply of water? This should be the common sense. And this body, this body, what it is? It is earth. When the body will be dead it will be earth. So I am spirit soul, a small particle, so much earth is coming from me, why not Kṛṣṇa, the supreme spirit? This is the explanation. God is great, I am small. From me a small quantity of earth is coming, water is coming. Why not from the gigantic body of Kṛṣṇa, so huge, I mean to say, volume of water, gas, and everything as we see it is coming? So therefore Kṛṣṇa is correct. He's correct, but for our understanding we can understand like this, chemicals, the chemicals coming from our body. There are so many salt. And you test the blood or the perspiration. You'll find so many chemicals. Brahmānanda: For us to... For our body to produce earth... *Prabhupāda: Now, just to understand that I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, so the chemical and the water and the earth is coming from my body, so why not Kṛṣṇa's body, gigantic, the greatest, the chemicals, water, earth, water...? When Kṛṣṇa says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo, "It is My energy," that's fact. Where is the difficulty to understand? We can... We are little sample of God, a small God. So if we can produce, this body... The spirit soul as I have described yesterday, one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair, it is very, very minute. From that minute spirit so much earth, water, fire is coming. So why not the supreme spirit, huge quantity of water, earth, will not come? How one can deny it? Harikeśa: Well, but verbal analogies don't prove the scientific a fact. Prabhupāda: Then you are a rascal. Verbal analogy is proof. A small quantity, a small quantity producing; large quantity, large quantity producing. Where is the verbal? This is practical. Harikeśa: But that's assuming that God has a body, or there even is a God. *Prabhupāda: Huh? But that is... You are blind rascal, you cannot see. That does not mean that He has no body. You cannot see even the president's body here. That means president has no body? You rascal, you cannot understand. Because you cannot see the president's body, you cannot say, "No, the president is bodyless." That is your defect. You become qualified to see the president. You'll see he has got a body. Those who are not qualified to see him, they can say that he has not body. But why he has no body? śāstra says. So if you remain fools and rascals, that is another thing, but He has a body. Iśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac*-cid-ānanda, Brahmā is saying. Why He has no body? Sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1]. Vigraha means body. Harikeśa: But we don't know, so we're taking the known and speculating on that... Prabhupāda: You do not know; *therefore you have to learn. If you want to remain rascal, fool, and still you want to know, that is not possible. You have to know from the real source. Then you'll know. But if you keep yourself in the rascal platform, then how you will know? Just like you have to go to a school to learn things. So how you can learn at home? Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You have to go in order to understand that science. So how do you argue, keeping yourself in darkness? In darkness you cannot see anything. "Oh, I do not see anything; *therefore there is nothing." Is that very good reason? You are blind, you cannot see the darkness. That is another thing. But things are there. You make your eyes operated and manifest your vision. Then you'll see. Therefore, ajñāna*-timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalākayā cakṣur-unmīlitaṁ yena tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ. Everyone is blind, in darkness. He cannot see anything. So one who opens the eyes, jñānāñjana-śalākayā, by the torch of knowledge, he is guru. This is description of guru. If you are blind and have a blind guru, that is no use. Guru means who is not blind. I may be blind. Then that will be effective. This is no reason, "I cannot see." What you are? You can see? You cannot see even the president, and you want to see God without being qualified? This is laymans', rascal's reason, "I cannot see. I do not see." What you are? What you can see? You do not first of all evaluate what is your position, and you want to see something. The formula is there. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. One who has developed love of God is always seeing God. So where is that qualification? You are not lover of God, you are lover of dog, so how you can see God? You can see dog. That's all. Go on seeing dog perpetually. And at the time of death see the dog and become a dog. That's all. Harikeśa: So I have to accept all this on faith. Prabhupāda: Not faith, it is practical. You are so foolish, you do not understand. Unless you are qualified, you cannot see anything. So you have to qualify. It is not faith. Disqualified. You are disqualified. Devotee (1): Like sometimes you make the example you can't see the president unless you are qualified to see the president. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Devotee (1): Likewise, you can't see God unless you are qualified. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. It is not faith; it is fact. Unless you are fit to see something, you cannot see. Jñāna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you're making comparison with the water coming from the gigantic body of Kṛṣṇa. The sweat, that's coming from water we took before. It's already existing. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jñāna: We're not making water or making chemicals out of nothing. The living entity's body, that comes from... Brahmānanda: We drink water, then comes the sweat. Jñāna: It's not produced out of nothing. Prabhupāda: Not without drinking? No. That's not fact. Brahmānanda: Actually they say the body is made out of water. Prabhupāda: "They say. They say." You don't drink water, and when you give me massage why do you perspire? You did not drink water. This is practical. Brahmānanda: But formerly I had drunk water. Prabhupāda: No, formerly, three hundred years, you had some water; *therefore the water is coming out. This is all nonsense. Seven generation before my great*-grandfather ate some ghee, and still I have got the smell. (laughter) It is that argument. Huh? This kind of argument has no value. Water is... You can create water from your body. What is there? You are a doctor. What is your...? Eh? Medical men they are. No? Water is created. How the blood is created? He did not drink blood. This is nonsense argument. How we create blood? It is becoming. You do not know how it is, but you have got such potency that blood is being created. You even do not know how the blood is being done, but it is being. That is inconceivable energy. There are so many secretions. They are coming within the body. So everything is there. By God's supreme energy they are being automatically. Svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. God has got multi-energies. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. This is the description. He hasn't got to do anything. Just like so many things are being manufactured within my body. I haven't got to directly work for it. So similarly, the God's gigantic... Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. He has nothing to do. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. Na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate. Nobody is found equal to Him or greater than Him. We are... He is God, and we are subordinate because we have many equals, but He has no equal. He is unlimited; *we are limited. Parāsya śaktir vivdhaiva śrūyate. He has got multi*-energies. The energies are working. Just like here there are so many instruments within this box, but you just push one button and it works. You just push one button; the whole thing is working. So similarly, the God has made this body so perfect that whatever is required, it is being manufactured. Nobody can explain. Can you explain how your hair is... You shave today, and tomorrow again, how it is growing, can you explain? But it is coming out. The energy is there. Similarly, if in the small body, a sample of God, so many energies are there, automatically working, then, so far God is concerned, that parāsya śaktir, He has got unlimited number of energies and things are taking place automatically. This material world is also external body of Kṛṣṇa. Just like our body, external body, and the hair is coming out. Do you endeavor for it? Similarly, the trees, plants, they are coming out. Jñāna: If I eat a lot I become fat. If I stop eating I become thin. *Prabhupāda: You stupid, you eat so much, but God is not stupid. He is conscious perfectly. He has nothing to eat. Still, He can grow. That is the difference between me and God. You don't require to eat even. There are many saintly persons they do not eat. How they are working? Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī was not eating. He was... Every alternate day he was, little butter, so much. That's all, not daily. Every alternate day. So actually we do not require to eat. Eating, sleeping, sex and defense*-this is bodily necessities. But you are not this body. When you come to the spiritual platform there is no necessity of these four principles. So that is your mistake, that you are thinking, "God has got a body like me. He requires eating for nourishing it." That is your foolishness. Aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛttimanti. His body is so made that He can perform any limb's work by another limb. Just like we can see with the eyes. As soon as close the eyes, we cannot see. But Kṛṣṇa can see by His ear. As soon as you pray to Kṛṣṇa, immediately He sees you, "Oh, here is My devotee," by hearing the sound of your prayer. Devotee(4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that our body was made by (indistinct). Why should we (indistinct)? But why should we come back? Prabhupāda: Because you have this material body, you have got so many necessities and God has no material body. He has got spiritual body. He has no necessity. Apta kama. He is fully satisfied. He doesn't require to take anything. Brahmānanda: He doesn't get hungry or thirsty. Prabhupāda: Neither. Neither of these things because He hasn't got material body. You have got this material body; therefore you have got all these defects. Indian man (5): Sometimes it was seen that the people that don't eat, then their body becomes very weak. Then the soul leaves the body after some time. People when they don't eat, their body becomes very weak, the soul leaves the body. Practically it has been seen. Brahmānanda: Weak? Weak? The body becomes weak when they don't eat? Indian man (5): Yes. *Prabhupāda: So that is all for the material body. Weakness or strength or dwindling or becoming old is ṣad*-avikara. Ṣad-avikara means birth, then growth, then sustenance, then by-products, then dwindling, then finish. This ṣad-avikara, six kinds of changes, are meant for the material body, not for the spiritual. Harikeśa: So everything is going on, and those things that are going on and they happen to fit in with the whole scheme, they continue. If there is some strength they survive, and if not, they die off, so everything is happening by chance. But because... Prabhupāda: Chance? Harikeśa: Yes, chance. But because... (laughter) But because... Prabhupāda: Another stupidity. (laughter) Harikeśa: But because some things happen to work, they continue. Prabhupāda: Will the medical man will say that everything happening by chance? Harikeśa: Well, that's because his body is all right. His body fits in with the scheme of things, so it can continue. But let's say the person doesn't eat, he can't get... Prabhupāda: They know that you have violated these rules of health, therefore you are diseased. There is no chance. Harikeśa: But he is fit to live so he can live. But someone other than... Prabhupāda: Nobody is fit. The doctors also become sick as soon as there is violation. The violation is the cause of sickness, so either he may be doctor or no doctor, that does not matter. If you violate, you'll be sick. That is nature's law. Nature's law. Devotee (1): Speaking of chance, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it was mentioned in the scriptures that, in The *Nectar of Devotion*, that in order to be involved in devotional service and execute devotional service in this life, we had to have some devotional service last life. So therefore, were you here last life too, to give us this devotional service? Prabhupāda: Hm? Brahmānanda: He's asking that in The *Nectar of Devotion* it is stated that for one to engage in devotional service means that in his previous life he had some connection with devotional service. So he's... Prabhupāda: So where is the chance? It is the cause and effect. If previous life you had some activities and the result is there. So where is chance? Harikeśa: So that's survival of the fittest. Because he could take to devotional service, he is surviving on in devotional service. Prabhupāda: Surviving... So he is surviving, but the cause and effect is going on. Jñāna: The scientists are saying the evolution of the body is purely by chance. *Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Therefore we call them stupid, rascals. There is no chance. Kāranaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya, Kṛṣṇa says, kāraṇam [Bg. 13.22]. There is no question of chance. Kāranaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Because you do not know how you are infecting... Just like you become all of a sudden attacked with cholera. You are thinking that it is by chance. It is not chance. Eh? What this medical man will... "It is chance." No. You infected somewhere. You do not know. And because you are foolish, you are taking it as chance. There is no question of chance. Harikeśa: But it was by chance I infected. *Prabhupāda: No, not chance. Why did you go where there is cholera case? That is your foolishness. Why did you go there? When there is infectious disease a man is forbidden, not to go there. So you went there without any knowledge and you infected. Now you are suffering. That's all. There is no question of chance. That is foolishness. Chance means ignorance. The ignorant people, they do not know. They infect sinful activities, and they say, "by chance." There is no question of chance. Kāranaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya, Kṛṣṇa says. There is no chance. Cyavana: If God's energy is so perfect, then how does this ignorance come upon the living entity? *Prabhupāda: That we have explained many times. You create your ignorance. Just like you cannot live without serving Kṛṣṇa, but you create: "Why not independently?" That is your ignorance. By law, by nature's law, you cannot live without being subordinate to Kṛṣṇa. But why you are thinking, "Why shall I be subordinate to Kṛṣṇa?" Kṛṣṇa is asking you, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ [Bg. 18.66]. Why you are not doing that? Why you are not doing that? Kṛṣṇa is personally asking, "You do this. I shall save you." Why you are not doing this? So you violate the laws of Kṛṣṇa. You suffer. That's all. Cyavana: But if that energy is perfect, how can it violate? Prabhupāda: Then you do not know what is living being. Living being has got the, I mean to say, independence, little independence. He can obey; he can violate. In our society there are so many. Somebody is strictly obeying, somebody is willfully, voluntary..., not voluntarily, willfully violating. They must fall down. Jñāna: If God is perfect, why didn't He make us perfect? Prabhupāda: He is made perfect, but He is not... You are not stone. God is not stone. You are living being. The same thing you are repeatedly asking. You have got little independence because you are part and parcel of God. So by misusing your independence, if you violate the orders of God, then you suffer. You are perfect because you have got independence, but you misuse that perfectness. That is your fault. You perfect. You become imperfect by misusing. Jñāna: Independence? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is perfect. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate, pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate [Iso Invocation]. Because you are part and parcel of God, you are perfect, but willfully you become imperfect. Again you become perfect; then you become imperfect. Jñāna: Where does that will come from? *Prabhupāda: Will is given to you. Living being means there is will*-thinking, feeling and willing. Don't question if you do not know. Everything comes from God. What is the use of "Where will comes?" Janmādya asya yataḥ. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvam... [Bg. 10.8]. Everything is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa has got will; you have got will. Why do you ask? This is foolishness. Kṛṣṇa has got independence; you have got independence. You are a small Kṛṣṇa. A particle of gold is also gold. Everything is there. All chemical composition is there. It has come from Kṛṣṇa. Why you are asking wherefrom it comes? Jñāna: All living beings are independent, but some choose to serve and some choose to disbelieve. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is use of independence. Otherwise what is the meaning of independence? The meaning of independence is: "If I like, I can do. If I do not like, I do not do." That is independence. That means independence. If you are stereotyped, forced to do, that is not independence. Independence means if you like, you can do it, if not*-you don't like-don't do it. That is independence. So misused independence means ignorance. He does not know that "If I infect this virus of this disease I'll suffer." But he does not know, ignorance. So he infects and he suffers. *Devotee (6): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was noticing your Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatams the other day and Caitanya-caritāmṛta. So I would like to take my time this time and offer my obeisances for such perfected, exalted work from such an exalted personality. All glories to you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees offer obeisances) Thank you very much. Devotee (6): I haven't seen anything so beautiful, so transcendental. Prabhupāda: Try to understand. Make your life successful. Devotee (6): I will with your mercy, with your grace. I need help. Prabhupāda: That is my endeavor. I am trying to put things how people will understand and they become perfect. That is my endeavor, humble endeavor. That's all. Jñāna: Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian woman (7): (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: ...say that if he remain forward even in the front of danger, that is his first credit. Indian woman (7): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: It was a great service. That was a great service, recognized. [break] Devotee (8): It's a type of poem. Prabhupāda: Anyway, so this, like sword. The tree is just like sword, and the sinful man is pushed through that tree. Jñāna: Prabhupāda, I've heard that even in hell the people think they are enjoying. Is that right? Prabhupāda: Where you have heard? (laughter) Jñāna: I thought that that was your own words. Prabhupāda: Don't think like that. Cyavana: Not to think but to know. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our position. Cyavana: As soon as he says, "I think," he's disqualified. As soon as he's speculating. *Devotee (8): Prabhupāda? Some of the people I've met... Like in the later volumes of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, some of the information is so much against what the living entities are experiencing and being educated in, that I've noticed that some people have turned away from Kṛṣṇa who already had some attraction when they hear these different topics, like the situation of the universe. Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that? *Brahmānanda: That because in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam the knowledge there contradicts the mundane scientific knowledge, people who had some faith in Kṛṣṇa become discouraged and turn away from Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Let him go away. Don't care for him. Let all the fools go away. There is Bengali proverb, "Instead of maintaining some bad cows, let the cowshed be vacant." We shall prefer the cowshed vacant, no cow, than keeping all bad cows who does not give any milk, create disturbance. Devotee (8): In our temple... Prabhupāda: We are giving chance, but we don't want bad cows. We haven't got to agree with their views. They must agree with our views, then they can live. Otherwise let them go away. This is position. Indian man (9): Your Divine Grace, are we all equal in sight of God? Brahmānanda: Are we all equal in the eyes of God? Prabhupāda: But if you become unequal, you must go away. No. His question was they are disturbed. So that means they are unequal. Why they should be disturbed? Cyavana: Kṛṣṇa says, "All of them, as they surrender, I reward accordingly." So that means they are surrendering in different... Prabhupāda: Yes. He has not surrendered. He keeps himself separate from Kṛṣṇa, and he is, artificially he shows surrender. Surrender does not mean that you reserve something for you. That is not surrender. Surrender means without reservation. That is surrender. Devotee (8): Devotional service must be unconditional, or else it will drive us away. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a child is surrendered to the parents. The parents say, "Sit down here." He sit down. That's all. No argument. That is surrender. Indian (10): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we speak of parts and parcels of God, does it mean that we were there with God before we came to this world? Prabhupāda: You are part and parcel then? What is that? Brahmānanda: If we are part and parcels of God does it mean that we were with God before coming to the... Prabhupāda: You are always with God, even your rebellious condition, you are with God. Just like a prisoner. A prisoner is always with the government, (laughter) but in one department he is kicked, and in one department he is patted. That's all. So if you prefer to be kicked, you remain in māyā. But you are always in connection with God. Indian man (11): Lord Kṛṣṇa says, "I am in everything." Prabhupāda: Yes. Your, this punishment condition is also God's creation, external energy. You cannot live for a second without God. But one who knows, he is blessed, and who does not know, he is condemned. But you know or not know, you are always with God. That is your position. Devotee (12): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how best can we present the teachings of... Prabhupāda: Just abide by the orders of God and His representative. Then you be happy. Otherwise not. Harikeśa: This side, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is the verse. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- November 2, 1975, Nairobi Prabhupāda: ...brain. Brahmānanda: That's an accident. That's an accident. Prabhupāda: Accident. All accidents make symmetrically so beautiful. Harikeśa: So in the beginning only it was an accident. Then it became regular, after that first accident. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So in the beginning let us kick. Then things will be all right. [break] Bhagavad*-gītā says in the beginning? Hm? What is the beginning? *Brahmānanda: Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Bījo 'haṁ sarva*-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10], very good. Thank you very much. All these plants begins from the seed. That seed... Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the seed." So how it is accident? Every plant has got a particular type of seed. You cannot change it. You take two seeds. It will grow as it is; it will grow as it is. Not that by accident it will grow like this and it will grow like this, no. Rose seed will grow rose tree, and mango seed will grow mangoes. Where is accident? The seed is there. Simply rascals. Harikeśa: It's an accident where the seed falls. Prabhupāda: Then you are great scientist. Let me kick on your face. (laughter) *Devotee (1): What about cross*-breeding, when they change the...? Cross-breeding. *Prabhupāda: That is not accident, cross*-breeding. You arrange for that. Devotee (1): They change the original seed. Prabhupāda: Then what is that? That is not accident. You are doing that. How you say it is accident? Why do you put this rascal question? As you are doing otherwise, it is coming otherwise. How you can say it is accident? Accident means nobody interferes; it comes. That is accident. Harikeśa: Well, it may not be an accident, but it proves how we're becoming superior to the nature. We can control it. More and more, every day we're controlling. Prabhupāda: How you can become superior? Nature has already given you, and then you are able to act. Where is your superiority? Huh? Devotee (2): That is a good point. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...given by God. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam. You have no intelligence even, so that is given by God. (Hindi) Let them become devotees. Why these old men, they are not coming? They are still after money? Amara ajñaya guru hana tara ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128], Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. So you have come to this country. Do something good for these Africans. Let them become devotee. Where is that attempt? The white men, they also came to exploit them, and you have also come to exploit them. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "No*-para upakara." Upakara kara. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... They are not so advanced; *make them advanced. That is real cooperation. (Hindi) [break] Just like every one of them is attached to remain in Africa, continuing to... But they are being forcefully driven away: "Go away." Attachment must be there. The Englishmen, they have got attachment, but they were forcefully driven away. Similarly, this conditioned soul, he has got attachment. And śāstra and śāstra... These people were driven away by śāstra,, by weapon, knife. That is śāstra. And śāstra is the same thing, but it is books. Therefore it is called śāstra. The original word is coming from śās. Sas means ruling, śās*-dhātu. Śāstra, śāstra, śāsana, śisya. Śisya. Śisya means voluntarily accepting ruling. That is called śisya. The word is the same, śās. From śās, śisya. From śās, śāstra. From śās, śāstra. From śās, śāsana. These are. So sometimes by force, sometimes by voluntarily... So just like guru-śisya. The guru, he gives enlightenment, and śisya voluntarily accepts. That is guru-śisya. Similarly śāstra means weapon: "If you don't follow, then I shall cut your throat." Similarly śāstra. So śāstra says that "Now you must leave your family life." That is called vānaprastha. So that is not being carried out, although the śāstra injunction is there. Brahmacari, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So brahmacārī is the beginning of life, how to become controlled life. Then he is allowed the concession for sense gratification. This is gṛhastha. Then śāstra says, "Now you have done up to fifty years. Now get out." But nobody is following. They are not prepared to get out unless death forces to get out. That Kṛṣṇa does. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. He is not willing. He has got attachment. He doesn't want. Then, at last, Kṛṣṇa comes as death: "Now get out." Kick out. "Oh, I have got so many things. I have got my sons, daughters, and this, that." "Get out. No question." And whatever you have accumulated, that is forfeit. That's all. The same process, just Africa government: "Get out." And what you have attained? All taken away. The same śāstra, śis, śās-dhātu. *Indian woman: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I am very surprised. I'm not born in India but I born in Africa. But why this culture I had in my heart from the start even? Forty*-five years, that time was my... Forty years. And I only see my husband also. So I will give you service in this for fifty years. As you'll need any service from me, you take from me. Only... *Prabhupāda: That means in your previous life you were in these activities. That comes. That dictates, "Now do it." So even though you became woman, still, that instinct was there. You had it done in your previous life. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gita. *Brahmānanda: Yoga*-bhraṣṭo. Indian woman: I was waiting to decide, but I thinking, "How I go to see Kṛṣṇa?" Prabhupāda: Śucinām śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41]. What is that? *Indian woman: So you come in my life. Before that time I was only forty*-eight years. Prabhupāda: So now the older section of the Indians, they should give up their family life and live in this temple, cultivate this spiritual life and preach. You see. There will be very nice relationship. Indian woman: Everyone, every state, this is true. Sometimes I go to preaching. I not looking "Asian," or such and such. Anyone I go to preach. *Prabhupāda: We are all part and parcel of God. The outward dress only makes difference that "I am African," "I am Indian," "I am this." Paṇḍitaḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Therefore one who is learned, he does not make that difference. That is accidental, that by... You can say acci... That is also not accidental, but some way or other, it has become so. The dress is different. But our movement is not with the dress but with the living being who has the dress. This is movement. Our, this is completely spiritual movement. *Indian man (4): Many intelligent people in Africa, they are taking it very seriously. We have one professor, Entenjania Danisanjunibristi. He's a very young boy. So he bought your Bhagavad*-gītā and Bhagavat dāsa was there. So he took all the picture out, all the picture, and he framed. I have seen in the room. He put all the pictures in his room. Then he was writing me from a long time. He became our patron life member, and now he chants sixteen rounds. He has gone to London for our course. He said, "After finishing this course I will take initiation from His Divine Grace. Then I will dedicate my whole life to preach in the university." Prabhupāda: He is Indian or African? *Indian man (4): No, no, African. He's a professor. Oh, yes. You have seen the letter, I think. So when I was in, then I was in Mandena's room. He said "No, you stay with me. Don't stay with the Asians." So I was in (?) university, you know. He said Asian can take this philosophy and not be so serious. Now he has gone to London. He may see you when you will be there, for a year. And he chants sixteen rounds. He has nobody, no picture else in his room. There was one picture of the president there. He took it down and he put a Kṛṣṇa picture there. So it's very serious. And he said, "I don't know. Since I have read the Bhagavad*-gītā I go to my class to give a class to the students and I don't speak anything else about the scriptures." Prabhupāda: That is the sign. Indian man (4): And he's a very strong, Prabhupāda, also, very strong. *Prabhupāda: That is said about Prahlāda Mahārāja when he was boy. So he has been described as kṛṣṇa*-graha-praptaḥ. Just like under the influence of planet one becomes, what is called, ghostly haunted, like that, so devotee means when he becomes Kṛṣṇa haunted. That is wanted. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. He does not think anything else except Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Kṛṣṇa-graha-praptaḥ. Indian woman: (indistinct) ...a few days before I been here for the (indistinct) my family complained me, "Mom, you don't know. Yesterday was very big day. Oh, you forget." (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa's wedding ceremony (indistinct) myself I forget everything. They start to complain go there (indistinct) I have not anything. They start to talk with me business, this and that. (indistinct) immediately I will give. Answer immediately because I always Sometimes guest there are I start to preach (indistinct) say something. It's okay. Then you like talking your matter. Then I will talk (indistinct). Prabhupāda: (aside:) Don't spoil your nail. Indian woman: Automatic change. Brahmānanda: When someone takes so spontaneously, like this African, without any preaching, but just spontaneously take... Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not yet so advanced. Brahmānanda: But it means in past life there must have been some connection if he immediately takes it so wholeheartedly, without any previous connection. Indian man (4): The Indian people, when they see the Africans in the temple, singing and all that, they criticize, you know. They criticize us. They say, "Oh, you..." That boy, he told me. He read your *Nectar of Devotion*. Then he came to the conclusion... He read the story also of Mahārāja Ambarisa. So he used to go to the Hindu temple to clean the floor early in the morning before going to university. He told me that he went for one week and they never said anything. When he was going daily the temple, they told him, "Don't come here. Don't clean here. We don't want the African to come." So then he told me that "What should I do? I want to follow the Prabhupāda instruction. So what should I do? Prabhupāda said in his books that if one cannot do anything, simply he should go to the temple and clean the room." He was so serious. Then I told the pūjārī that "Why you are doing like that? He wants to serve the Lord. Why don't you let him serve? You want to keep out the inside the temple and throw the pots and the cigarette in the temple?" (?) So they criticize like that sometimes. They're simply imitating us. Brahmānanda: There was a man yesterday at Dabji's house who was the brāhmaṇa who was officiating. He is a very much caste conscious brāhmaṇa, and although he and Shah were the first ones to meet you at the Nairobi airport when you arrived, in Nairobi, as soon as he heard your philosophy, he has never come. He came the first day only when you first arrived, and since that day he has never come. And yesterday I think he must have just come because Shah forced him. But he does not at all like our philosophy that brāhmaṇa by qualification. He is very staunch-"brāhmaṇa by birth." Devotee (5): They always say the Africans could never become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: How they are becoming? Devotee (5): They don't believe. Prabhupāda: Believe? You do not see even? Devotee (5): But they say that "Oh, he will do it, and then, after one year, he will stop." Prabhupāda: Well, that is another criticism. Somebody is eating nice yogurt. Everyone will say, "Oh, it is very nice. It is very nice, very nice." Another man says, "Yes, it is nice, but after three days it will be sour." (laughter) You rascal, you consider for the present. What "after three days"? Means he's a bad critic, so he could not find out any fault. Everyone says it is good. So "After three days it will be bad." This sort of criticism. So you have already become bad. You were doing service to others. What does he do, that priest? Brahmānanda: He's a businessman. Prabhupāda: Business. So is that...? The business is the occupation of brāhmaṇa? You are already fallen. How he can criticize others? Indian woman: That is all, brāhmaṇas, all brāhmaṇas, there is no big knowledge. That is Śiva. Śiva is the head. Prabhupāda: That's all. Śiva is the head, but whether you are brāhmaṇa? That is the question. Indian woman: They don't know, understand. *Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa's qualification is there-śama, dama, titikṣa, ārjavam and jñānam, vijñānam, āstikyam, brahma-karma... [Bg. 18.42]. Everything is there, the symptoms. So you are doing business, the occupation of the vaiśyas or śūdras, and how you are claiming to become brāhmaṇa? The... Who is a brāhmaṇa, that symptoms is there in the śāstra. And not only the symptoms, Nārada Muni has said, "If these symptoms are found elsewhere, then he should be accepted according to the symptom." There is no question of birth. Yasya hi yaḹ lakṣanām proktaṁ varṇābhivyanjakaṁ yady anyātrāpi dṛṣyeta tat tenaiva viniriset. This is Nārada's vision. So it is the symptom. Just like a doctor, medical man. He diagnoses according to the symptom. He finds out the cause. So symptom is required, not that a man has become diseased or healthy by birth. No. By birth he is born. Then again, when he develops certain types of symptom, so one has to take him in that way. That is śāstra. We are accepting, or giving them sacred thread, brāhmaṇa, after seeing that they are actually acting as a brāhmaṇa, not superficially. Therefore we take some time to see whether he can develop brahminical symptom. That is our process, not that anyone comes, and we give him a sacred thread and he becomes immediately brāhmaṇa. We don't do this. First of all give him chance. Let him chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, follows the rules and regulations. Then let us see. If he is actually serious, he has developed the symptom, then... This is the proper way. Even one comes from the brāhmaṇa family-he wants initiation*-we don't give immediately, even if he is coming from a brāhmaṇa... That is a good facility, that he is born in a brāhmaṇa family, but the symptom is the first necessity. Either you are born in a brāhmaṇa family or śūdra family, it doesn't matter. Indian man (6): (unclear) Brahmānanda: What is that? The brāhmaṇas who come over from? Indian man (6): From ISKCON center. We have a tendency (unclear) Brahmānanda: Yes. So what is your question? Indian man (6): So don't you think that the blame should not be, usually be laid on the Africans but on the whole...? Brahmānanda: He's saying that the brāhmaṇas who comes from our overseas temples here, it's their responsibility to see that the Africans follow properly, because the Africans will follow their example. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is for that purpose they have come. That is the purpose, missionary purpose, here. We come here not to earn some money but to see that this culture is spread. So what is his question? Brahmānanda: So it's the responsibility then of those who are coming as the missionaries to set the proper example. Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. Brahmānanda: Because then the Africans will follow that proper example. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes, he is right. Brahmānanda: If they set a bad example, then they will follow bad example, then the criticism of the Indians will be justified. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's it. So those who cannot follow, they should not come here. And ask from the origin that "Those who cannot strictly follow the rules and regulations, they should not come at all. It will set a bad example. They should be forbidden to come here." That I was speaking, that instead of filling with bad cows, better keep the cowshed vacant. That I was speaking. Those who cannot strictly follow our principles, they should not come here. It is bad example. By mistake, if somebody does, he should be regretful and he should rectify. That is another thing. But not willingly he should neglect. Then such person is not required at all. Devotee (7): Prabhupāda, in the movement there is sometimes difficulty, and... Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? You chant sixteen rounds and follow the regulative... Where is the difficulty? Devotee (7): If they will not accept instruction, then... Cyavana: Then what is your instruction? If they won't accept your instruction, then what is your instruction? Must be bogus. Huh? If your instruction is pure, then they'll accept. If your instruction is not pure, who will accept? I will not accept. Prabhupāda: No, "Example is better than precept." If you actually follow strictly the rules and regulations and chant sixteen rounds, why they'll not follow? They'll follow. If you are not attending class, if you are not attending maṅgala ārati, if you are not finishing sixteen rounds, then that is bad example. Brahmānanda: This boy didn't attend mangal ārati. Prabhupāda: Don't set bad example. That is detrimental. Devotee (7): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it for the advanced devotees...? Prabhupāda: Nobody is advanced. Everyone is student. He must follow. There is no question of advanced. Devotee (7): I mean, they call śūdras... Prabhupāda: Śūdras? Śūdra, how he can be devotee? Śūdras are never devotee. Indian man (4): No, he says sometimes the devotees, they call the other devotee that "You are śūdra." Prabhupāda: That is jokingly. (laughter) *Indian man (4): Prabhupāda, sometimes you have said that this Gāyatrī was first spoken by the Lord, and this is a sound vibration of the Kṛṣṇa's flute, and it was heard by Brahma. Right? And these brāhmaṇas, so*-called brāhmaṇas... *Prabhupāda: There is no question of "so*-called." We want real brāhmaṇa. That's all. It was heard by the real brāhmaṇa, Brahma. Brahma, Brahma. Indian man (4): So they worship Gāyatrī. They say it like as a... Prabhupāda: They... Whatever they say, you forget that. You do your own duty. You follow the rules and regulation and do the needful. Why you...? Indian man (4): But we have to make them understand very clearly. Prabhupāda: But they will never understand. You don't waste your time. Go on with your duty. When they will see that you are actually acting as brāhmaṇa, they will appreciate. Indian woman: Time will come. They will notice. Prabhupāda: Yes, they will appreciate. But if you don't follow strictly, then it is useless to criticize them also. You are also victim; they are also victim. Devotee (8): When chanting our sixteen rounds, we are not sure if these rounds are sincere... Prabhupāda: You should be sure. Devotee (8): How can we be sure? Prabhupāda: There is beads. Brahmānanda: No, he's saying that when we chant our rounds, how can we be sure that when we chant the round that the round is a perfect, attentive round, sincere? Prabhupāda: Therefore it is śāstra, "You must." There is no question of understanding. Brahmānanda: The quality of the chanting he's asking. How can we make the quality the best? *Prabhupāda: Quality, you'll understand first of all come to the quality. Without having quality, how he'll understand the quality? You follow the instruction of your spiritual master, of the śāstra. That is your duty. Quality, no quality*-it is not your position to understand. When the quality comes there is no force. You will have a taste for chanting. You will desire at that time, "Why sixteen round? Why not sixteen thousand rounds?" That is quality. That is quality. It is by force. You'll not do it; *therefore at least sixteen rounds. But when you come to the quality, you will feel yourself, "Why sixteen? Why not sixteen thousand?" That is quality, automatically. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura was doing. He was not forced to do. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He requested, "Now you are old enough. You can reduce." So he refused, "No. Up to the end of my life I shall go on." That is quality. Have you got such tendency that you will go on chanting and nothing to do? That is quality. Now you are forced to do. Where is the question of quality? That is given a chance so that one day you may come to the quality, not that you have come to the quality. Quality is different. Athāśaktiḥ. Aśakti, attachment. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī says that "How shall I chant with one tongue, and how shall I hear, two ears? Had it been millions of tongue and trillions of ear, then I could enjoy it." This is quality. Quality is not so cheap. Maybe after many births. For the time being you go on following the rules and regulations. It is being done by force. Where is the quality? So you wanted to understand quality. This is the quality. You'll not be forced, but automatically you'll desire. That is quality. I am writing books. I am not being forced by anyone. Everyone can do that. Why one does not do it? Why I get up at night, one o'clock, and do this job? Because I cannot do without it. How one will do it artificially? This is quality. Therefore they like my purports. That quality is shown by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Śunyayitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda virahena me. "Oh, I do not see Govinda. The whole world is vacant." Śunyayitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda virahena me. This is quality. Just like we have got practical example. One man's beloved has died, and he is seeing the whole universe vacant. Is it vacant? So that is quality of love. So there is no formula of quality. It is to be understood by himself. Just like if after eating something you feel refreshed and get strength, that is quality. You haven't got to take certificate: "Will you give me a certificate that I have eaten?" You'll understand whether eaten or not. That is quality. When you will feel so much ecstasy in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, that is quality. Not artificially-"Chant. Chant. Otherwise get out." This is not quality. This is in expectation that someday you may come to quality. That requires time. That requires sincerity. But quality is there. Śravanādi śuddha citte karaye... It will be awakened. Not by force. Just like love between two persons, it cannot be forced. "You must love him. You must love her." Oh, that is no love. That is not love. When automatically you love one another, that is quality. Dora vede(?) prema. And therefore formerly, at least in the Indian society, at an early age they were married. There is no quality in that quality. But gradually, remaining together, the quality of love increases. Then the wife takes care of the husband, and the husband takes care. They become bound up, united in love. That is quality. In the beginning, what the child knows about love? No. But they are allowed to remain as husband and wife. They are thinking that "I have got my husband," "I have got my wife," and as the age increases, the dealings become intimate. Then they become affectionate. That is quality. Not in the beginning there is any quality. It is by the parents' arrangement. That's all. In our day, the marriage was performed when the girl is ten years, twelve years, nine years. Twelve years is very late marriage. My second sister, she became twelve years old. So my mother became so disturbed that "This girl is not being married. Shall I commit suicide?" Yes. You see? My eldest sister, she was nine years old, older than me, and she was married before my birth. And my mother*-in-law was married at the age of seven years, and my father-in-law was eleven years. I was married... My wife was eleven years. So in this age there is no question of love. It is not that the husband and wife lives together, no. Unless the girl is grown up, she is not going to the husband. She remains with the father and mother. Sometimes they meet, and the wife is taught, giving some sweetmeat to the husband-official. Official. The parents of the girl: "Just go up to your husband and offer this." So she comes as obedient servant. But gradually they get the connection. In this way the love develops, and when they are fifteen, sixteen years old, they are allowed to live together. Because both of them have already developed that "She is my wife," "He is my husband," psychologically. And there was no question of divorce. The love is so strong, they cannot dream even that "I have to leave my wife," "I have to leave my husband." They cannot dream it. They may fight. The husband and wife fighting, that is not unusual. Therefore Canakya Paṇḍita says, "Fight between the husband, wife, never take it seriously." Daṁpatye kalahe caiva baṁbhāraṁbhe laghu-kriya: "They'll make all arambha, but it is not very important. Don't take." Next moment they will again live peacefully. So according to Indian culture, there is no divorce. There is no question of divorce. Both the husband and wife, they cannot dream of divorce. The love was so strong. Even Gandhi's life, he fought with his wife and pushed her out of the house: "Get out, I don't want you." And Kasturabhai, she began to cry on the street, "Where shall I go? You have driven me away." Then Gandhi said, "Come on." Finished. (laughter) He has written in his life. Harikeśa: I'm curious about the destination of a neophyte devotee. If a neophyte devotee is with determination endeavoring for purification but he were to meet with death as he is still influenced by the lower modes, although he is seriously trying, then does he take another birth or does he go to Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: No, he has to take another birth. If he is not completely purified, he has to suffer another birth. Nobody is allowed to enter into the spiritual unless he is cent percent pure. No allowance. Then he has to... Therefore it is said, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate [Bg. 6.41]. He is given chance, another chance, to take birth in a very pure brāhmaṇa family or rich family so that he may take again the chance, not in, he is allowed to enter. He is given a good chance again. That is his benefit. Even if you are failure, still, your next birth as a very first-class human being is guaranteed. Not for others. It is only for the yogis. If he is... Therefore it is said that "What is the loss even if he is failure?" Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi yatra kva va abhadram abhūd amuṣya kim [SB 1.5.17]. This verse is very important. Even by sentiment one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and discharges the regulative duties, chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, his next life is guaranteed as a human being. Even he does it for some time*-he is not perfect-still, his next life is guaranteed. But others, there is no such guarantee. Even if he discharges his so-called duties, material duties, there is no guarantee that he'll become a human being. [break] Harikeśa: They let him stay in that body and then he went to Hṛṣīkeśa and performed devotional service and then became perfect. *Prabhupāda: No, he was already perfect, but to increase his desire-"How shall I go Vaikuṇṭha?"*-another time he had to go. He was a perfect; otherwise how he was saved from the Yamadutas? Harikeśa: So if a devotee dies and remembers Kṛṣṇa, although he is not perfect... Prabhupāda: Unless he is perfect, he cannot remember Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. That is not possible. That is theory only. He must be perfect. Somehow or other, he fallen, so Kṛṣṇa gives him the chance. That is special concession for devotee. Some way or other, you become devotee. Even if you cannot finish the whole job, if you fall down, still, there is guarantee that you get your birth in a very good society. That is the prerogative. Jñāna: What about like Mahārāja Bhārata? Prabhupāda: That was also. If Mahārāja Bhārata... It was punishment and reward also. Mahārāja Bhārata, although he became a deer, he remembered that he was such and such exalted position but "I became attached to the deer and I forgot my regular duties." Mahārāja Bhārata, he became so much attached to the deer, he forgot his regular duties. Therefore he was punished. But he remembered that "I was in such exalted position. On account of my attachment to the deer I have fallen." Therefore he rectified himself so that in his next life he became completely silent so that "I may not fall down," Jada Bhārata. This association, material association, is so dangerous, so he remained just like a dull madman. That's all. He was talking with nobody; he was not mixing with anybody. Whatever one would do, he did not protest, but his knowledge was full. Devotee (7): Is there any difference in (indistinct) when somebody is chanting japa under the tree and someone who is chanting japa in the temple? Prabhupāda: Hm? Brahmānanda: I think sometimes we recommend the devotees to chant their rounds in the temple rather than walk in other places. Prabhupāda: Why one should walk other places? Who has said that you go out, walk other places? Never said. Devotee (7): It may not really be necessary. Prabhupāda: No. You should chant in the temple. Why should you go to other place? Devotee (7): So there is no difference someone chanting out of the temple, in the temple. Prabhupāda: Why you should go outside? Who has allowed him to go outside? Unless he has got some important business for the temple, why one should go to outside? There is no need. That is the chance of falling down. Why you should go outside? We are arranging for the temple, for the food. Why? Because everyone should stick to the temple and the principles. Why you should go to outside? That should be stopped. You cannot go outside. Devotee (7): May we go to the shop to buy something? Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is for temple's benefit or business. That is another thing. Somebody goes to sell books, somebody goes to make some life members. That is another thing. Otherwise one is not allowed at all. Not whimsically "I am going out." Why you are spoiling your men? Devotee (9): Prabhupāda, sometimes I've seen devotees say that they did not like to chant in the temple room with the opposite... Prabhupāda: Then that is a rascal. He is not a devotee. He is a rascal, when a devotee says... How you become devoted? If he does not like the temple and he thinks to be happy outside, what is he? What kind of devotee he is? He is not a devotee. Devotee (9): What I meant to say is he does not want to chant with women in the temple room. I have seen this before. He says, "I do not want to chant in a room with women. I would rather be away from the women." *Prabhupāda: That means he has got distinction between men and women. He is not yet paṇḍit. Paṇḍitaḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. He is a fool. That's all. He is a fool. So what is the value of his words? He is a fool. Indian man (4): So he'll go first to make... *Prabhupāda: He should always consider, "There is woman, that's all. She is my mother." That's all. Matṛvāt para*-dareṣu. Then what is the...? Suppose you sit down with your mother and chant. What is the wrong? But he is not so strong; then he should go to the forest. Why he should live in the Nairobi city? On the street there are so many women. He will walk on the street closing the eyes? (laughter) This is all rascaldom. They are rascals. They are not devotees, simply rascals. Indian man (4): Some of our devotee goes to the other temple like Swami Nārāyaṇa and they want to see the ladies there, so then they are taking these instruction from them. Prabhupāda: Our devotees go to Swami Nārāyaṇa? Indian man (4): Yes, they go. Here our devotees, they went to Mombassa for, after Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. When I was not there, all of them went to Swami... Prabhupāda: These things should be stopped. They leave their own temple and go to Swami Nārāyaṇa temple? Stop. Indian man (4): They likes their lunch. They goes for lunch. Yes, that's true. All of them went without asking me. About five, six devotees, immediately from here went to Swami Nārāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: So this should be rectified. Indian man (4): And their theory is that... I asked Vipramukhya Swami that "Why you have put this? Why you say to your disciple that we should not see the face of the woman?" He said that, "We should avoid." But I said, "Well, okay, when you are walking on the road automatically you will see the ladies." He said, "We turn our face to one side." I said, "First you have seen the woman. Then you are turning." (laughter) "You will look further. You have not seen the women. You have no sense, you know." *Prabhupāda: These are all bogus things. One should train himself that matravāt para*-dareṣu, all women, "my mother." Then it will be possible to live... Therefore the etiquette is to address every woman, "Ma, ma, mother." That is the etiquette. Brahmānanda: You say like "Mother Rukmiṇī"? There's a devotee named Rukmiṇī. You say, "Mother Rukmiṇī"? How do you address a woman? Do you say, "Mother," and then the name of the devotee? Prabhupāda: No. "Mother," simply. Brahmānanda: Just "Mother." Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be addressed, "Mother." That will train. Indian man (4): In our Indian culture they don't call the name of the mother never, children don't. Prabhupāda: No. "Mother," simply "mother," that's all. And if the woman treats man as son, then it is all right. It is safe. Indian woman: We got a very sweet sound. Everything we use "ji." "Matāji", "Pitaji," "Brataji," "Bahinji." Prabhupāda: Or... And the woman says, "Beta."(?) That's all right. Devotee (5): The only trouble is in the West we're accustomed to not like our mothers. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (5): In the West we don't like our mothers. Prabhupāda: So you should forget your West or East. [break] Brahmānanda: Similarly, wife should not be called "Mother." Prabhupāda: No. Therefore it is said, "other's wife," not your wife. But Rāmakrishnan, he was saying his wife "mother," and he became famous by this foolishness. Indian man (4): Rāmakrishnan, there are many like Shyāma mother. Her husband, he calls her "mother." *Prabhupāda: Just see. In the Brahma*-samaj they call the wife as "sister," and the wife calls the husband "brother," address like that. *Indian man (6): Śrīla Prabhupāda, since there is no distinction between "man" and "woman"-these are both designations*-is it possible for a woman to become a brāhmaṇa? Brahmānanda: Is it possible for a woman to become a brāhmaṇa? Prabhupāda: He is... Woman is a brāhmaṇa's wife. Then she is automatically a brāhmaṇa. Indian man (6): Suppose she doesn't want to get married for the rest of her life, just wants to serve the Lord? Prabhupāda: So in his spiritual position everyone is a brāhmaṇa. Brahmānanda: But you give brahminical initiation to unmarried women. Prabhupāda: Yes. But on spiritual point she is brāhmaṇa. On the spiritual platform there is no such distinction. Devotee (7): Oh, it's not possible for a woman to become a sannyāsī. Prabhupāda: No. Devotee (2): What is the position of the woman in a..., late in life, the wife of a devotee? Prabhupāda: What is that position? Brahmānanda: After the husband takes sannyāsa? Devotee (2): Yes. Brahmānanda: What is the duties of the woman after the husband takes sannyāsa? Prabhupāda: So remain a devotee, widow. She is not allowed to marry. Indian man (4): I know, Prabhupāda, one of your Godsisters in Vṛndāvana. She is very old. She is staying in Tīrtha Mahārāja's maṭha. So she told me she took her initiation when she was about sixteen year old and still she stays in the temple and she... [break] ...say you're the most pious person on this planet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- November 3, 1975, Bombay Girirāja: Well, we told them that we didn't want... They were putting in a permanent one. So we stopped that and... Saurabha prabhu, did he say that he would also remove the present one? *Saurabha: Well, he couldn't do that immediately because this one has been there for twenty*-five years, but they will try to get rid of all these things. Prabhupāda: Rather inconvenient to Mr. Matrey, because in front practically. We have got wall. He has no very much objection. And how will they allow? [break] Girirāja: Have a gate in the middle of the wall and so many people will be passing. It will be a big international center so it will look bad for India that... Prabhupāda: Yes. So stick to that point. That's nice. [break] ...may take advantage of offering obeisances consciously or unconsciously. [break] Dr. Dr. Patel: My son and his wife came. Especially for them... They don't have other holidays. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] What is the use of the fighting? Dr. Patel: I have heard that the man could have first landed on moon and then... Prabhupāda: Nobody landed. This is all bogus. Dr. Patel: No, no, whatever he did... Let us... It is all bogus, but that man is divorced by his wife because he has lost his sex. Somebody told me. Prabhupāda: There are many cases. This is the statement in the Bhāgavata. Dampatye ratim eva hi: "Marriage relationship will continue only on sex power, that's all." If one is weak in sex power, the marriage will be cancelled. Dr. Patel: You must tell any other good messages, how actually a marriage is, can be for production of good progeny... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Putrārthe kriyate bharyā putra*-piṇḍa-prayojanam. This, the first, piṇḍa-dāna for maintaining family. But nowadays nobody wants offspring. They want to kill to avoid botheration. Dr. Patel: First they prevent, and if by accident it happens, then they kill it. And the medical profession help them. Prabhupāda: Help them. Before my speaking you are saying. (laughter) *Dr. Patel: I am against it, no doubt. Once upon a time I used to be the doctor of all these so*-called cinema actors and actresses, and you know their profession. And they are always falling prey of these sort of things, and they would come to me for relief, and I would refuse. So today I have none of them as my patient. Prabhupāda: But you cannot relieve them. Dr. Patel: No, I have taken a vow not to do wrong things. That is why I am here in your company. Otherwise I would be somewhere in... That is very common in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Not only Bombay, all over the world. Now it is imported in India also, to get relief of pregnancy. This is... Yaśomatīnandana: There is a big board in Andheri railway station. It says "For abortion and for family planning come here and get your (indistinct)." (Hindi) Dr. Patel: The college boys are taking advantage of this. Indian man (1): Always you can get the beer, all beer, every place. Dr. Patel: Cold beer? Indian man (1): (Hindi) Dr. Patel: No, because I don't drink. I don't know. I have not taken tea even in England during my education because I am not to take tea. I am totally teetotaler of the right way. The society is right from the beginning body conscious, more or less, we. We are not taught even during our age of education that we are not this body and something else. This was being done in the ancient times, our forefathers. When the boys were going to the guru, they were first taught this, that "You are not this body; you are something else." And here you are taught you are body so you have to take exercise. *Prabhupāda: That is the first education, first instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā, beginning of Bhagavad-gītā-dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Unless one understands that "There is change of body and I am spirit soul within this body," he remains a cat and dog, and that's all. Dehātmā-buddhiḥ. Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhātuke sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. So we are keeping this civilization-animals. How there can be peace? You cannot make several dogs, bring them together as nation, and they will live peacefully. It is not possible that "You all dogs come here and feel nationally and be peaceful." Will the dogs will be able to do that? Because you are dog, it is not possible. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) They fight among themselves for nothing. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are keeping them cats and dogs by education, culture, and they want to be happy. How it is possible? First of all let them come to the standard of human being. Then there is question of peace and happiness. They are kept as cats and dogs, and how there can be peace? You cannot make any peace in the dog society. That is not possible. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So that consciousness can come only when one is spiritually educated. If he is simply engaged for satisfying the senses, material, then he remains a cat and dog. You cannot expect any peace. Dr. Patel: I think the greatest damage done to this civilization of Aryans of India was by MacCauley, who introduced the British system of education. Prabhupāda: But why you accepted that? (laughter) Why you accepted? Then why don't you accept? You should have refused. Dr. Patel: Well, we were not there to refuse. We came afterwards. Our forefathers gave us... *Prabhupāda: No, you can... Just like they are reforming. Their forefathers were drunkards, woman*-hunters, (laughter) and they are reformed, the great-grandchildren. And we old men, we cannot do that. Dr. Patel: I talk of MacCauley... Prabhupāda: MacCauley may mislead you. Why you should believe? Dr. Patel: He misled our forefathers. Prabhupāda: No, why you should be misled? Dr. Patel: Now we are going to lead them. Are you not leading them? Prabhupāda: Yes. Your forefathers might have been misled, but why you will commit the same mistake again? Dr. Patel: Now we have improved upon the mistake and we are leading them, and we will lead them. Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact. These boys, European, American boys, they were misled from the very beginning of their life, but how they are improving in spiritual consciousness? The thing is we are not prepared to take up our own culture. That is... Dr. Patel: That's right, sir. God must have some, something to fulfill. *Prabhupāda: Take for example our big leader, Mahātmā Gandhi. He was supposed to be very good scholar in Bhagavad*-gītā. Did he ever preach that "You are not this body?" Dr. Patel: I come from the ashram. Yes, he did. Prabhupāda: Then where is the question of nationalism? Dr. Patel: He never says... When he went to England... Prabhupāda: Then why he asked the Europeans to go out? "Quit India." Dr. Patel: Because they were exploiting poor people. There was a question of uniformity of people. There was no question of... *Prabhupāda: No, there cannot be uniformity. On the bodily concept of life there cannot be any uniformity. That is a... When uniformity comes? Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. When? Brahma*-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. Then uniformity. You have no knowledge of Brahman. You are living like cats and dogs. How there can be uniformity? That is not possible. [break] Practically you see uniformity. Somebody is coming from Europe; somebody, American; somebody, African; somebody, Canada; somebody, Hindu; somebody, Muslim; somebody, Christian. How they are becoming uniform? Because on the Brahman platform. And if you remain in this bodily concept of life, there is no question of uniformity. Para... [break] ...nirmatśarāṇāṁ. This uniformity means "I am envious of you; you are envious of me." This is our position. Bhāgavata says that this... Bhāgavata culture is meant for paramo nirmatsarāṇām [SB 1.1.2]. So if you remain in the material platform, there is no question of nirmatsara. Para utkarṣa asahanam. This is called matsaratā. The whole basic principle... Unless you come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of uniformity, peace, prosperity, nothing. Therefore our movement is "Change consciousness. Come to the spiritual platform, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be all right." Otherwise not possible. What is that, māṁ aprāpyaiva mūḍha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20]? Dr. Patel: Aprāpyaiva mām eva. Prabhupāda: One who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, birth after birth he will be pushed into the atheist family, that's all. Mūḍha janmani janmani asureṣu [Bg. 16.20]. What is that verse? Dr. Patel: Mām aprāpya adhāmam... Prabhupāda: Adhāmamaṁ gatim. So their result is they'll go down and down. That's all. Dr. Patel: Then how he comes up? Prabhupāda: By Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Dr. Patel: Tri*-guṇasya. Prabhupāda: That is If you engage him in devotional service, immediately he is transferred to the spiritual platform. That is wanted. *Dr. Patel: Kāmaḥ krodhas tadā lobhas tasmād evam... Tri*-vidhaṁ narakasya-dvāram. *Prabhupāda: Ah! Yes. Yes. On the material platform, he... The human life is meant for spiritual culture. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. But they have rejected. They are simply busy. Athāto deha*-jijñāsā. That's all. Dehātmā-buddhi. Dr. Patel: I have got little point on this, that after all, the spirituality within you, namely ātmā, cannot remain independently without this body, so you have got to look after the body. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is not the fact. If you are actually spiritually advanced, you don't care for it. Deha smṛti nāhi yār saṁsāra bandhana kāhān tānra. It is just like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. He had no spiritual... er, material con... He was eating every alternate day a little quantity of butter. That's all. How he was living in Vṛndāvana? So when one is perfectly on the spiritual platform, there is no bodily necessities. That is the sign. Therefore our civilization is to decrease the bodily necessities, not to increase. Control. Control, from the brahmacārī, control, control, control. Ultimately completely control. That is perfectional stage. Tyāgena. What is that verse? Dr. Patel: Iśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ yat kincid jagatyam... [Īśo mantra 1]. Prabhupāda: No, tapasā brahmacāryena tyāgena yamena vā [SB 6.1.13]. This is wanted. Tapasa. Beginning. Tapasya means that controlling the senses. That is tapasya. And the tapasya begins... Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) ...brahma. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tapasya means... Beginning is brahmācārya. Tapasā brahmacāryena [SB 6.1.13]. So where is brahmācārya? Dr. Patel: Brahman prati ācarati āśā brahmacārī.(?) All the senses. Not only the upasthas, but all the ten senses, including your mind and the discriminating buddhi, all are directed toward serving feet of God, and then he does not... That is real brahmacārī. *Prabhupāda: That, yes. Devotee means brahmacārī. Pure devotee means brahmacārī. Anyabhilasita*-sunyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. He has no other desire. That is brahmacārī. [break] This building is meant for playing cards. Somebody knows? Girirāja: Club. I don't think this one is. No, behind it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This looks like a residential apartment building. Girirāja: Indira's daughter stays here. Indira? It belongs to her niece's family. So sometimes her niece was staying here, and she used to come to the temple every day. There's another which is a club. *Prabhupāda: ...tri*-dhātuke sva-dhiḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma īḍya-dhīḥ, yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij janeṣu abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. South Africa... (Hindi) ...successful. Dr. Patel: South Africa, majority of them are rooting Holland. Not many other. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there are all kinds of Europeans. Dr. Patel: No, but majority of them are Hollanders. That is why this, they were against the Britishers. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So in South Africa we had very successful programs. Dr. Patel: You are going to have a temple there? Prabhupāda: Yes, we have already there. Dr. Patel: Did you go to East Africa also? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Nairobi. Dr. Patel: Nkrumah(?) wants money from anybody who goes and sees him as if he's a god. Prabhupāda: But where we have got money? Dr. Patel: That is what I say. And he has all his money in Switzerland, Swiss banks. This is how they ruling these poor people. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...one of the richest men in the world. Devotee (2): Who? Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Prakṛteḥ kriyamānāni guṇaiḥ sarva... [Bg. 3.27]. You are fully under the control of the material nature. You must submit. Dr. Patel: Yaṁ yaṁ vā... tyajanti deham. That is how, I mean, Bharat got mṛga because he was continuously in his mind was there. *Prabhupāda: No, there is no such education, that there are dehāntara*-praptiḥ [Bg. 2.13] and there are 8,400,000 different forms of deha. Which one he is going to get? Nobody is serious about it. He thinks, "Things will go on like this. I am very free to do anything." That is going on. Mūḍha. Mūḍha, rascal. Duṣkṛtino mūḍha. They will never hear the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. They will do whatever he likes and interpret in a different way. (Hindi) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāh [Bg. 7.15]. He could take the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā and make his life perfect, but because he is mūḍha and full of sinful activities he will not do that. *Dr. Patel: māyayāpahṛta*-jñānam asurīṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ. Prabhupāda: Ah! Although he is very proud of his material knowledge, it has no value. Because he is dependent on the laws of material nature, what his knowledge will help him? Suppose a very big man of this material world, he commits some sin. Does it mean that because he has got big qualification he will be saved from the laws? No. He must suffer. So mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot avoid even these material laws, so how you can avoid the nature's law? Mama māyā duratyayā. Very, very difficult, but still, they are thinking, "Oh, we are independent. We can do anything." Therefore mūḍhas. Dr. Patel: Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām... Prabhupāda: Taranti te. Yes. So this is the position. Therefore our propaganda is that "You take Kṛṣṇa and be Kṛṣṇa conscious and then you'll be happy." This is our propaganda. We haven't got to manufacture anything. We have to simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. (aside:) Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) This time I have requested all Nairobi important friends that "Now you take sannyāsa and become guru. Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked everyone to become guru. amāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You have come to Africa. Now become their guru and deliver them." "Now, how shall I do it?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa upadeśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "Simply speak. Don't become very big upstart. Simply speak what Kṛṣṇa has done. That's all. You become guru." (Hindi) "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has said this. The meaning of this is this," as Kṛṣṇa left the meaning to be declared or understood by some fools and rascals. This is going on. Dr. Patel: Sir, what is this Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Dr. Patel: Sva*-karmaṇā? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are doctor. You can serve Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. According to your, I mean, sva*-dharma. Prabhupāda: This is perfection of life, that... *You may do whatever occupational duty you are... But you have to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Then your everything is perfect. And if you satisfy your senses, then you are going to hell. This is the position. Therefore it is... Sva*-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya [Bg. 18.46]. Even that karma is abominable, sa-doṣam api na tyājet [Bg. 18.48]. "You go on with your work. Even there is some fault, it doesn't matter, but you satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Then it is perfect." Just like Arjuna did. The fighting is not good business, but he satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Therefore by fighting, he became a great devotee-sva-karmaṇā. He did not leave his position as a kṣatriya, as a gṛhastha, but he... Karisye vacanam tava: [Bg. 18.73] "Yes. In spite of my not being inclined to fight, because You are asking, I'll do it." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (Hindi) [break] You remain in your place, but you have your ears to hear Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll be perfect. What is the difficulty? You remain as a doctor. You remain as a pleader. You remain whatever you like. It doesn't matter. But engage your aural reception to the words of Kṛṣṇa. Then you become perfect. What is the difficulty? Simply sit down and hear what Kṛṣṇa says, Bhagavad-gītā. That's all. And if you say that "I simply hear," and if you do not act, no, you'll act because as you go on hearing, your heart will be purified. Then you will be inclined to hear..., er, act. Indian man (3): I was going to ask this question, but... (laughing) *Prabhupāda: Yes. śṛṇvatāṁ sva*-kathā kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya śravaṇa... Because by hearing Kṛṣṇa, you'll be purified. Puṇya-śravaṇa. Simply by hearing, you'll be pious. And as soon as you become pious, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ jananaṁ puṇya... [Bg. 7.28]. But nobody will come here. They'll go to the restaurant, club, the playing cards. Nobody will come. We are opening so many centers that the rascals may come and hear and become pious. That will also not do. Caitanya Mahāprabhu regretted that. Etādṛśi tava kṛpā bhagavan mamāpi durdaivam īdṛśam ihājani nānu... "You have done so much favor to us, but I am so unfortunate that I have no desire to hear You." (Hindi) So much unfortunate. [break] That I have already explained, that akusam adhikāro. (laughter) Yes. Caitanya... One of the disciples of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, he has taught us, *This is our process. What is that? Now, the Indian system of becoming humble is to take a straw in the mouth. (Hindi) Dante nidhāya tṛṇakam: "So I am taken a grass in my mouth," and padayor nipatya: "I am falling down your lotus feet," and kṛtvā ca kaku-śatam: "And flattering you hundred times. I am submitting you." So any man will agree, "All right, say." So as soon as you give me the chance, then I say. What I say? He sādhavaḥ: "You are a very great personality, sādhu." "Then? What do you want?" Now, sakalam eva: "Whatever nonsense you have learned, please forget." (laughter) "Whatever nonsense rascaldom you have learned, please forget." "Then what shall I do?" Kuru caitanya*-candra-caraṇe anurāgam. This is our preaching. First of all we shall... Dr. Patel: Don't forget architecture. I tell him, don't forget architecture, the important just now. (laughing) Forget other thing. Prabhupāda: Hm. This is the process. First of all flatter him. When he agrees, "Please tell me..." Dr. Patel: How he became this. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Ask submissively, that "Forget all rascaldom, whatever you have learned, because you do not know what is knowledge. You have simply learned all rascaldom. So please forget it." This is our preaching. Dr. Patel: Tell me that knowledge by which I know everything, according to that..., that boy? In Upaniṣad? *Prabhupāda: So that is, Kṛṣṇa is speaking. You know everything. By hearing Kṛṣṇa, you know everything. But we'll not do that. We shall stick to that rascaldom, what you have learned. Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām... [Bg. 18.66]. (Hindi) [break] *Dr. Patel: ...man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu was eulogized by Rūpa Gosvāmī, namo mahā*-vadanyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. "You are, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, You are the most munificent because You are giving kṛṣṇa-prema, which is very, very difficult." (aside:) Jaya. [break] ...not because he... In the beginning I said they will not. (laughter) (Hindi) [break] ...rise early. (Hindi) [break] *Dr. Patel: You go to bed at two*-thirty. Prabhupāda: No. *Indian (4): No. Two*-thirty. Gets up two o'clock. Dr. Patel: I go to bed at nine o'clock. Brahmānanda: One. Dr. Patel: I go to bed at nine o'clock, so I get up at three o'clock. So let us do like that. Both of us go to bed at nine o'clock, take a bath... (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, I go at ten o'clock and get up by two. (Hindi) [break] Dr. Patel: ...vacanaṁ tava. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Na ca tasmād manuṣyeṣu kaścid me priya*-kṛttamaḥ. (Hindi) If we want to be recognized by Kṛṣṇa, this is the simple process: go and flatter persons, "Please hear some words from Bhāgavata," that's all. And actually we are doing that. We are not learned, very scholarly. *Dr. Patel: Sir, I read your commentary on Bhagavad*-gītā and Rāmānujācārya's. They are absolutely parallel. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I think you have taken out of it... (laughter) Prabhupāda: How can I... Dr. Patel: I am just joking. Prabhupāda: No, no. Our process is to take from the ācāryas. We are not manufacturing. We are not so fools and rascals that we have to manufacture. We have to take the remnants of foodstuff given by the ācārya and explain in the modern way so that people may... That is our business. Dr. Patel: Completely parallel. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why should I... If it is parallel, then it is my success. Brahmānanda: Yes. It's very complimentary. Dr. Patel: His Sanskrit is very wonderful. Ācārya... *Prabhupāda: If it is parallel, that is my success. And if it is not parallel, then it is useless. But they want to give something of his own foolish ideas. That has become nowadays, scholars. If you give some foolish idea-"Oh, he is a great philosopher." That's it. And our process is evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imam rājarṣayo [Bg. 4.2]. We have to receive from the a... ācāryopāsanam. That is the way. And this Subodhinī-ṭīkā, Ballabhācārya, as soon as he says, "I have done something better than Śrīdhara Svāmī," immediately Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected him: "Oh, you have done better than Śrīdhara Svāmī?" Dr. Patel: Śrīdhara Svāmī has made it more or less... Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you cannot reject. You cannot say that "I have done better than Śrīdhara Svāmī." If you simply following the footprints of Śrīdhara Svāmī, that is vaiśakti(?), not that "I have done better than him." Dr. Patel: All Vaiṣṇava Ācāryas are more or less parallel. There's a little difference here and there. It is not much... Prabhupāda: No, there is no difference. Everything. It is, rather, more... Dr. Patel: In philosophy there is no difference, sir. But in... Prabhupāda: In presentation, clarify. Yes. That is our business. Just like what I am doing. I am following the Ācāryas, but I am presenting, writing in such a way the modern man can understand. This is our point. Dr. Patel: Modern man. Modernizing? (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Yes. You know him, this boy? He's a great*-grandson of Henry Ford. He has contributed to our society not less than two crores of rupees. Dr. Patel: He has got money. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: And Chapkhanna(?) cannot be very not good. Not very good. Your printing is wonderful. From where... Where is that place? From Japan? Prabhupāda: America and Japan. We want wonderful books. Dr. Patel: Very good. Indian (5): I saw that printing by (indistinct). Nobody has printed such books. And also the language Dr. Patel: (Hindi) language (Hindi), Sanskrit into English? *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) māyayā... They are very much puffed up of being educated. But Kṛṣṇa says māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. Dr. Patel: *Vedas* also depict about māyā. That is why naistraiguṇyo bhavarjuna. No? Am I right? Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: They are the old sticks? Prabhupāda: Take it away and leave here. Dr. Patel: No, I don't want it. (laughter) This has come from South Africa? Prabhupāda: No, no. It was presented by Visalini in Vṛndāvana. One American girl student, she has given it. [break] *Dr. Patel: Man*-manā bhava. Perpetually. It is just like an insect climbing a wall. Immediately it comes down on the ground. It takes about twenty-four hours. *Prabhupāda: No, no. If you practice... Just like these boys. They are chanting "Hare Kṛṣṇa," so their mind is fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. Man*-mana. And they can do it without any being afraid by public criticism because they are mad-bhakta. They have become bhakta. Others, they will afraid: "I am such and such person. If I chant then what the others will speak?" (laughter) But a devotee is not afraid of anyone. Indian (6): No, sir, but body is the temple of God. Vaiṣṇavas pray that... Prabhupāda: That everyone... Dog is also worshiping the body. Indian (6): (Hindi) Dr. Patel: We are just now worshiping body, sir. We are worshiping body, and we don't want to worship soul now. That is what he says. Indian (6): Body is nothing. The soul is there. That is understood. Prabhupāda: So if you reject soul and simply worship... Indian (6): No, soul is there. Dr. Patel: He wants to say (Hindi) is the point. (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: (Hindi) So if you take spiritually advanced, the bodily care is already taken. Dr. Patel: That is what I have learned. That you were saying before but then I got a postscript from one other devotee. Prabhupāda: No, no. One thing, example, that dead body. Now, when the spirit is gone, now can you take care of the dead body? Dr. Patel: It rots. Prabhupāda: So long the spirit is there, it is all right. And as soon as the spirit is gone, it is simply lump of matter. 6: No, if you misuse it... Prabhupāda: No, no. First... This is practical. You see the importance of the body is so long, as long as there is the spirit. So if you take spiritual care, the bodily care is automatically done. Just like we are. Are we not taking bodily care? But our main business is spiritual care. *Dr. Patel: But people are starving for twenty*-four, I mean forty-eight days. You cannot starve for two days because you have got weakness of the mind. Mind and soul should be one and the body... [break] Prabhupāda: ...transcend the bodily and mental platform. Then you come to the spiritual platform. You have to come to that platform. Dr. Patel: Evaṁ buddhvā paraṁ buddhvā... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Saheb, Thakur Saheb, what he says is right. No, but because we are, we are apratijñāna so we don't understand it quickly. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...Kali*-yuga, always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma..., and everything will be clear. Last night Brahmānanda said... [break] ...that "We are sticking to you because we know we have got something from you." Otherwise they are all rich man's sons. They are aristocratic family and industry. Why? I am not bribing them. Now this Mr. Ford has come to me. I have not bribed. He is not to be bribed. [break] Dr. Patel: Up to three o'clock we are taking rest. Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Patel: No. Prabhupāda: Up to four. *Dr. Patel: If I come at four*-thirty, you are there. *Prabhupāda: No. At that time, I shall not be able to... You can come at five. Because after waking up I prepare. Then at five I begin. Let us meet. And Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. So one has to become dhīra. If one remains adhīra, then he'll never be able to understand the distinction between body and soul. Dr. Patel: Dhīra means buddhi. *Prabhupāda: Dhīra means sober. Sober, yes. Just like high*-court judge. He judges everything very... [break] ...then he gives his judgment. Indian man (7): Attention. Prabhupāda: Full attention. And attention means with good intelligence, (dog barking) not foolishly. (Hindi) That "You are not body. Why you are fighting?" Will they hear? (Hindi) That "My dear dog, you are not this body. Why you are fighting?" He will never understand. Similarly, if a man does not understand, he is no better than the dog. *Dr. Patel: śuni caiva śva*-pākeṣu paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we like everyone. We do not reject anyone. Dog cannot understand the philosophy. Therefore we call him and give some prasādam. (laughter) Dr. Patel: So if we take also prasādam, don't... (laughing) Prabhupāda: Therefore prasāda distribution is one of our program. Dr. Patel: For? Prabhupāda: For everyone. *Dr. Patel: (laughs) Sama*-darśinaḥ. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are not neglectful. "Because he is dog, therefore he should be neglected." No. He should be given. Indian (8): After all, he is God's creation. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sama*-darśinaḥ. Sama-darśinaḥ means that every living being is part and parcel of God. So he is suffering for want of God consciousness, so let us teach something as far as possible. This is our mission. [break] ...dhīras tatra na muhyati. Therefore the human being's first business is how to become dhīra. Dr. Patel: Dhīra does not exactly mean "sober," but something more than sober. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is only one part of it. Dr. Patel: So many Sanskrit words cannot have translation into English. Prabhupāda: Dhīra means one who is not disturbed by this bodily concept of life. He is dhīra because he knows that "I am not this body," even there is some trouble in respect of body. So Kṛṣṇa advised that titikṣasva bhārata. Dr. Patel: Titikṣasva. Prabhupāda: "Even there is some disturbance, tolerate it. Don't be disturbed." *Dr. Patel: Mātra*-spārśas tu kaunteya, sukha-duḥkha-daḥ [Bg. 2.14]. Prabhupāda: Yes. So long the body is there, in connection with the skin disease, we shall be suffering in so many ways. Just like there was accident. So it does not mean that because there was accident that... Dr. Patel: But somehow or other, you have very much improved after accident, your health. Prabhupāda: No, I was eating nicely in Africa. The climate is nice. Indian (6): Was it? Prabhupāda: Hm. Dr. Patel: South Africa is just like, just like, as cold as Europe. Prabhupāda: Not very cold, but it is cold. Durban. Durban. Dr. Patel: Durban, there is a huge population of Indians, and all Gujaratis. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Somehow or other, Bengalis and Gujaratis are akin. Why they have one living in West and other in East? What must be the cause of oneness even in thought and action, in every way. Prabhupāda: Oneness means Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Dr. Patel: In temperament also. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: That is also external. Real unity is on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (Hindi) The Vedānta begins, athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Just inquire about the soul." And where is that education? This human life, they are opening so many colleges, schools, institutions. Where is the instruction about the soul? So go*-kharaḥ. (Hindi) In spite of so much improvement, they are behaving just like cats and dogs. In South Africa the Indians are given the far away from the city. Dr. Patel: They have been very badly segregated. They can't have any business, I hear. Prabhupāda: They are put into difficulty. Dr. Patel: They are following Hitler's method of superiority of... They don't understand that Indians are as superior as they are, rather more, ethically. Prabhupāda: Everyone thinks that he is superior than everyone. Dr. Patel: No, no. The Aryan race is... Prabhupāda: That is the disease, material disease. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has... Tṛṇād api sunīcena: "You just become..." (end) Morning Walk -- November 4, 1975, Bombay Girirāja: ...very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very long also. *Prabhupāda: Long and broad. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...is anatha, without any master, like these dogs, loitering, no hope where to get food, where to take shelter. Anātha. Anātha and sa*-nātha. And you'll find a big man taking care of the dog, and he's barking like any..., "Aw! Aw! Aw!"-because he has got his master. And this poor fellow has no master; *therefore he is suffering, anātha. [break] ...Yamunācārya, very nice. Mano*-rathāntaram. Kadāham aikāntika-nitya-kiṅkaraḥ praharṣayiṣyāmi sa-nātha-jīvitam. [break] ...the dog, that "These are saintly persons. If they can take me..." [break] *Bhavantam eva caran nirantaraḥ: "Simply abiding by the orders of Your Lordship." Bhavantam eva caran, "acting," nirantaraḥ "twenty*-four hours," and prasanta-niḥśeṣa-mano-rathāntaraḥ, "and finishing all this mental business, mental concoction, making plans." Niḥśeṣa-mano-rathāntaraḥ. Bhavantam eva caran nirantaraḥ prasanta-niḥśeṣa-mano-rathāntaraḥ, kadāham aikāntika-nitya-kiṅkaraḥ: "When I shall be unalloyedly devotee of Your Lordship, and," praharṣayiṣyāmi, "I shall be jubilant, living," sa-nātha-jīvitam, "that I have got my master. I have got my master. I have no cares and anxiety." *This is the ideal of life, to become sa*-nātha-jīvitam, living with hope that "I have got my master who will give me protection." That is ideal life. Others, they are living independently-anātha, no master. Just like a child without having father and mother is called anātha. So-called independence means anātha. Anātha. What is the independence? At any time nature's law will come and kick it out. [break] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Eh? Brahmānanda was speaking that "We are feeling anātha before coming here?" Yes. "And now we are feeling sa-nātha." That's a fact. This godless life is anātha. Foolishly they want to remain anātha. They do not like to be sa-nātha. And anātha means the street dog-nobody to take, always barking, always hungry, always disturbed. Somebody is throwing stone. This is their... I went to your country in 1965. I went there as anātha, but I was confident that "Now I am not anātha; *I am sa*-nātha." [break] ...was interested in my mission, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, no. In this country I wanted to start it. Nobody came forward to help me. So practically... But I was confident that "I am not anātha, but I am sa-nātha." [break] ...does not want to become devotee? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. She is an arya, so... But she believes in God, but she is not surrendered. *Prabhupāda: arya*-samājīs, do they believe in God? I don't think. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are impersonalists. Indian man (1): (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: Parsi, Hindu, Muslim, they will take anyone, provided he teaches you how to love God. Otherwise useless. If you don't get the knowledge how to love God, then it is useless waste of time. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Every time I would say Hare Kṛṣṇa, some of them were lying and have distributed by sticks. [break] ...it is stated that he was seeing everything material as nonsense, avastuvāt. Avastu means no substance. Vastu means substance. And he was surprised how a man can become without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because he was a child, five years old, he was surprised that "How these people, my father and others, they are without Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" *Indian (1): That is mentioned in Bhagavad*-gītā. "All bhūtas come to illusion because of icchā, dveṣa and dvandva." And when you are relieved from icchā, dveṣa and dvandva, then you are mukta. Prabhupāda: Work is going on at night? No. Devotee (2): They are digging all night. Dr. Patel: These two architects are wonderful people. They are wonderful. They, very early they're getting up. I said it will not be so soon as that. Prabhupāda: Now we are going to have the temple within three months. Dr. Patel: But then drying of the cement, drying needs... Prabhupāda: Everything is there. Just you take and... In Bombay, Calcutta, if you pay for, you can get tiger's blood. Dr. Patel: That side, you can get tiger's blood and even tiger's milk. But then you can't get time. The cement a certain, takes certain time to dry, no? Prabhupāda: Then the answer is... No, the architects have promised, within three months. Dr. Patel: You must have some, some mantras then, architect. Have you got any mantras brought from America or...? Devotees: Haribol! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! [break] ...is practical. [break] Dr. Patel: ...because God does not want to come out and meet idiots. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No. They obstructed so much, so it must be wall against those persons. From the very beginning they were obstructing. So therefore we raised the wall so that they may not come. Dr. Patel: But the sādhus have not developed these faulty characters, as mentioned in Bhag... Prabhupāda: But who is sādhu? First of... Dr. Patel: All these sādhus: satyam, śaucam, abhaya, śānti, and all these things... *Prabhupāda: But sādhu... They are sādhu because they are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Api cet sudurācaraḥ. Their case is different. But others, they are all asādha, asādhu. Kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāh. A man may be materially, academically very advanced, but Bhāgavata says, kuto mahad-guṇāh. Because he is not devotee, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāh. "Why? They have got so many qualifications; *still, they are not great personality?" No. "Why?" Mano*-rathena asato dhāvato bahiḥ: "They will only act on their mental platform, speculate." No fact. The fact is that he is soul. He has to change this body. That they have forgotten, and making big, big plan. This is... Prahlāda Mahārāja regrets, śoce tato vimukha-cetasaḥ māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān: [SB 7.9.43] "I am thinking of these rascals, fools." māyā-sukhāya: "For māyā-sukha," means the false or illusory happiness, "they are making some huge, gorgeous arrangement." Dr. Patel: That is all because of the body consciousness of a man thinking himself the body and... Prabhupāda: Yes. Somebody has constructed big, big, big building but he does not think that how long he will be able to enjoy it. After this body he has to change. Dr. Patel: That is... In *Mahābhārata* there is one śloka. I don't remember the exact Sanskrit wording, but Yudhiṣṭhira said that he so much... I mean, he cannot understand why people see every day people dying outside but they don't think about that they are going to die... Prabhupāda: Kim āścāryam ataḥ param. Kim āścāryam ataḥ param. Dr. Patel: Ah, that's right. Prabhupāda: Dr. Patel: That is the greatest Ācarya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is dying every moment, but the living man is thinking, "I'll not die." Dr. Patel: That he is eternal. Prabhupāda: "I'll not die." Dr. Patel: : The body will not die. He does not die, no doubt. That is a fact. But he thinks that the body does not die. Prabhupāda: It is the question of body. That is a fact. But he is attached with this body. So the body will not exist. That he cannot see. He has got spiritual business. That he is neglecting. Everyone at the present moment, all over the world, ask, "Are you engaged with your bodily activities or spiritual activities?" "What is the nonsense spirit? We are all body, this body, so long we have got." Even the big Professor Kotovsky, he said, "Swamiji, everything ends after the body. Why do you bother?" Dr. Patel: I think Einstein was also saying the same thing. Einstein, Professor Einstein. Prabhupāda: I do not know, but I talked with this gentleman privately. He said... He was a big man in Russia. He said, "Swamiji, after the end of the body everything is finished." *Dr. Patel: They know... These Russians are the only hundred*-percent body conscious. The Carvakas. Who are they? They are descendants of Carvakas, these Russians. Prabhupāda: No, in India also, all these political leaders, big ministers... *Dr. Patel: No, no. The Communism itself is Carvakism in a different way. Our sanātana*-dharma is a communist-dharma, when you see the same eye, everyone in equal. But they don't want that way. They want other way. From body consciousness, not from soul consciousness, they want Communism. Sanātana-dharma preaches us Communism from soul consciousness. Prabhupāda: Where is the understanding of soul? Everyone is puffed up with his body. Nobody considers even that "When I say this finger, 'my finger, my head, my leg...' " Dr. Patel: And who is that "my"? Prabhupāda: And who is that "I"? Dr. Patel: Who is that, saying it, "my"? *Prabhupāda: This is brahma*-jijñāsā. Atātho brahma-jijñāsā. When this intelligence comes, then he's a human being. Otherwise he is dog. He is every day saying, "My leg, my head, my finger, my, my," but he does not know what is "I." Dr. Patel: Who is that calling "my." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is God... Dr. Patel: That is greatest Ācārya, next to Dharmaraja's Ācārya. Prabhupāda: No, Ācārya is death. One may not have this "I" conception, but he has to die. That is a fact. [break] What further arrangement is being made? Today a meeting? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: At a quarter to twelve. Prabhupāda: All right. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Suraheja(?) is going to come also. [break] Dr. Patel: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: ...vimūḍha. Śoce tato vimukha*-cetasān vimūḍhan. *Dr. Patel: That, some people have spoke, go*-kharaḥ. I am not able to understand much about the whole śloka, so you know, the salile, buddhi, and what is that? The Sanskrit is little difficult to me. Prabhupāda: You explain. Dr. Patel: No, I want you to explain. Prabhupāda: No, he is also paṇḍita. (laughter) *Dr. Patel: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavata Sanskrit little difficult. *Prabhupāda: Yasyātmā*-buddhiḥ-kunape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. This body is just like a bag made of three dhātus: kaptha, pitta, vāyu. Actually it is so. They are thinking that this body is made of blood, muscle, bone, and urine, and stool. This is the constitution of the body. And these foolish people thinking that the living condition is coming from combination of these things. Dr. Patel: Material things. *Prabhupāda: Not only material. Such abominable things as stool, urine, blood, bone, muscle*-all rejected things. And they are so foolish that they are accepting that combination of the stool, urine, blood and bones can create a body..., a life. Body is already there. So if you are so big scientist why don't you take this material and create a life? Dr. Patel: That is what the Russians say. Prabhupāda: Russians say that the... Dr. Patel: That the consciousness comes after the combination of... *Prabhupāda: We are talking of this verse, that if this is the composition of the body, these things are available anywhere. Why don't you create life? Therefore he is no better than the dogs. He has no intelligence that "How this combination of blood, urine, stool, and bone, and muscle can create life?" They are thinking that a combination of matter can bring life force. That is the so*-called scientists' theory. So these things are available in large quantity, so why don't you create life? Therefore go-kharaḥ. Their intelligence is not better than the cows and the asses from the very beginning. If they are not cows and asses, how they can think of that combination of these material things can bring in life? When a man dies, find out if there is scarcity of stool or scarcity of urine or scarcity of blood. Bring it and inject it. These rascals, they cannot do it, and still they are calculating urine examination, blood examination and this examination. (laughter) No, I am not saying. It is śāstra. (laughter) Take this dead man's body, and whatever urine and stool is there, examine, and then inject, and come him, let him back, come to life. Then I will understand that your examination of the stool, urine is perfect. This is common question. So long the soul was there, you are very expert to examine stool, urine and this and that. But when the soul is gone... Now the stool is there; urine is there. Why don't you examine and give life? This is our challenge. Dr. Patel: They say that the life, the consciousness... According to our religion, consciousness, the whole thing is conscious Prabhupāda: Consciousness means soul, soul. Dr. Patel: Consciousness is the higher śakti of God, I mean, apara to anya... Prabhupāda: No, no, consciousness... So long the soul is there, the consciousness is there. The consciousness is not there means the soul is not there. Indian (2): But one thing the doctor has got in power, you see. That is this, that suppose he gives a poisonous injection, that is immediately affected, and why the soul is out of it if...? Prabhupāda: No, no, all injection will be effective so long the soul is there. Dr. Patel: Yes. Give it to the dead bodies, he says. *Prabhupāda: That is my point, that if... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. If this analysis of the blood, urine and other things can help us, so you can analyze the dead bodies-stool, urine, blood, something is there*-and give some injection and let him come to life. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Therefore they are go*-kharaḥ. Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kunape tri... Dr. Patel: So long the soul is there. As soon as the soul dies, goes away, the body dies. Prabhupāda: That is the explanation of the body dies. Indian (3): (indistinct) that poison is ineffective (several talk at once) Dr. Patel: No, I think your argument is... [break] Prabhupāda: Jaya. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: I have to do something with my leg. Bring the car here. Prabhupāda: So Ambarisa Mahārāja, is our argument all right? Ambarisa: Yes. Yes, it's good argument. It's very sound. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] What others' argument? This is my challenge. Yaśomatīnandana: Mr. Dhrug was pointing out... Prabhupāda: Where is that materialistic leader? Here is. What is your argument? Huh? (laughter) Yaśomatīnandana: He says that you cannot bring life, but you can bring death immediately. Why is that? *Prabhupāda: Huh? Death? He's already dead. What you can bring? Rascal, don't you see that he is already dead? If you have to bring something you have to bring life. Death is already there. (dog barking, woman yelling) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] Bhāgavata has analyzed, yasyātmā-buddhi kunape tri-dhātuke. And this is the beginning of mistake, taking this body as everything and then bodily issues, bodily... Sva-dhiḥ kalātrādiṣu. And because I have got relation with some woman... There are thousands and millions of women, but because I have got bodily relation with some woman, I am so much attracted. That is due to the body. Actually I am not attracted to the woman. There are many millions of women, but that particular woman, wife, because I have got bodily relation with her, I think, "Oh, she is mine." Sva-dhiḥ kalātrādiṣu. Kalātrādiṣu, beginning from kalātra, then go on-children, grandchildren, father-in-law, mother-in-law, this one, this one. The beginning is the kalātra. If there is no kalātra, there is no father-in-law, mother-in-law. So sva-diḥ kalātrādiṣu. Then bhauma idya-dhiḥ-"This is my country. I am national," "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this." Why? The body has grown from this land. You see, every, the whole world activities is going on on this basis. Sva-dhiḥ kalātrādiṣu bhauma idya-dhiḥ. Idya. Idya means worshipable. The brain is full with this idea, dhiḥ. Dhiḥ means buddhi. The brain is congested with all these ideas. Then he wants to become a religious man. What is that? Now, bhauma idya-dhiḥ. Yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile. He goes to some holy place and takes bath. They go to Hardwar. The same Ganges in Calcutta, and the same Ganges in Hardwar, but he will go to Hardwar to take bath so that he may think that "I have come to some holy place." The holy place is Ganges, but Calcutta is not holy place and Hardwar is holy. Yes. Bhauma idya-dhiḥ. Yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile. Actually Hardwar or Vṛndāvana, such places are meant to see great saintly persons, to take some knowledge from them. To take some knowledge from them, that is the purport of going to the holy place. But without consulting them, without seeing them, he simply dips into the water and he takes, "My pilgrimage is finished." Yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicit janeṣv abhijñeṣv. There are many saintly persons, very experienced. They will not go there. So eva go-kharaḥ. These are asses. This conception of life is go-kharaḥ, animal. Go means the cows and asses. This is the explanation of the verse. All religionists think. They go to Mecca, they go to Jerusalem*-to the water. They are not eager, searching out that "Where there is some saintly person in this holy place?" No. They have no search out. They do not want to consult. Yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. And this is further explained by Prahlāda Mahārāja... What is that? Tato vimukha-cetasaḥ: "All these things happen when one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious." Tato vimukha cetasaḥ. Vimukha. "Eh! What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" Tato vimukha... Śoce tato vimukha-cetasaḥ māyā sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhan [SB 7.9.43]. [break] Yaśomatīnandana: Brahmānanda was... Prabhupāda: (simultaneously) ...was complaining about his analysis of stool. Yaśomatīnandana: Brahmānanda Mahārāja says he's like a big ball. Everything just bounces from him. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the general way. [break] *Yaśomatīnandana: ...what they're doing is that you're not this body, so whatever you do, you just become self*-conscious and everything is all right. There were some so-called sādhus, they admit, and they say "I am not this body. I am not attached." *Prabhupāda: No, what is that self*-conscious? Yaśomatīnandana: He said, "Whatever my body does, I am not attached to it. I am not this body; I am spirit soul." Prabhupāda: So I am not responsible. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Therefore they say, "I am not this body." Prabhupāda: Then why different bodies? If you are not responsible, then why do you get different bodies? Yaśomatīnandana: "That is because I did not know in the past that I was, I am a spirit soul. But now I know that I am spirit soul." Prabhupāda: But you did not know in the past. So you were a fool in the past. You are fool now also. Where is your advancement? Yaśomatīnandana: "Now I know that I am a soul. I am not this..." Prabhupāda: Simply by knowing soul is not good. Why you have got this body? Why everyone wants a king's body or a very nice body? Why he gets a dog's body? What is the reason? Everyone wants: "I may have a very good body so that I can enjoy." But why he is baffled? He gets a cat's body, dog's body, insect body, tree's body. He has also body, but he is standing there for hundreds of years. He cannot move an inch. So why you have got this facility of this body that you can move, you can cut, but he cannot protest? He is also body. And what is he? Who? Yaśomatīnandana: "It is because of my past karma." *Prabhupāda: Then you must first of all rectify your karma. Then talk. Past karma, you have got this body. Therefore you must rectify your karma. Karmano 'pi bodhavyam akarmana. You must know what is karma, what is akarma, what is vikarma. That is knowledge. If you remain blind about your karma and by nature's way you get different body, then what is your knowledge? Just like if you go to a doctor, he says that "Due to this infection, you have got this disease," so you know it so that in future you will be very careful. That is knowledge." I do not know why I have got this disease, and still, I do not know what further it is going on"*-that is ignorance. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. To remain in ignorance, that is the greatest sin. Tamasi ma: "Don't remain in darkness." That is Vedic injunction, "Enlighten yourself." Jyotir gama: "Go to the light." But where is your light, you do not know. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Karmīs say, "Ignorance is bliss." Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's nice. Yes. That is dog's bliss. Yaśomatīnandana: Then we say that, this verse, that... Prabhupāda: What is that? Yaśomatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that "If you know that you are not this body, then even if you kill all these people, then you are not affected by the reaction." Prabhupāda: But kill by Kṛṣṇa's order, not whimsically. Yaśomatīnandana: Similarly, they say that... *Prabhupāda: But if you know that you are not this body-"I am soul"-that what is the soul? Mamaivāṁso jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. So just like this finger is itching here*-it is by my order-similarly, when you understand that you are soul, then you have to act according to the advice of Kṛṣṇa. And if you act according to the advice of Kṛṣṇa there is no papa. That is the meaning. To know that you are soul, then you must know what is the soul. That is... Kṛṣṇa explains, mamaivāṁso: "These jīva-bhūta, these living entities, they are My part and parcel." So as soon as you realize ahaṁ brahmāsmi, then you act in that Brahman platform: brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kaṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. That is the platform. To understand simply "I am Brahman" and remain silent, that is not. Mad-bhaktim labhate param. If you are actually brahma-bhutaḥ, then next stage is, brahma-bhutaḥ means to act in devotional service. That is real. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Yaśomatīnandana: Just like when some people say... *Prabhupāda: Now, simply their point is that you realize or I realize Brahman. That is not the end. You realize fully. They think to Brahman means to stop all activities. Now you become dull, without any activities. So that is not the end. The Bhagavad*-gītā says if you are brahma-bhutaḥ, then come to this point: mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param [Bg. 18.54]. Then you will stay. And if you simply stay on brahma-bhutaḥ stage, then you'll again fall down. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata, that ye 'nye 'ravindakṣa vimukta-maninaḥ. They are thinking, "Now I am relieved from the conditional life." But actually he's not. Ye 'nye 'ravindakṣa vimukta-maninaḥ. They are thinking like that, "Now I am liberated." He's not liberated. Why? Tvayy aṣṭa-bhavat. Aṣṭa-bhavat: "He has no still information of You." If he is actually brahma-bhutaḥ, then he knows the Supreme Brahman, Parabrahman, and then he engages himself in His service. And when he is engaged in that service there is no question of material, tri-gunātmākam. Sa-guṇan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya... [Bg. 14.26]. That is real Brahman, when he is above these three guṇas. Otherwise, if you think, "Now I have become liberated," maybe by your liberation liberated, but it will not stay. You'll fall down again. Just like this land. You can take it-here is land-but at night it will be water. Is it not? Ambarisa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You must go to the real land. If you take, "This is land. Now I am safe," no, that is not safe. At night it will be overcome. And that, to go to the real land, means to become a devotee. Then it will stay. If you are suffering from some disease, you see now the temperature is gone down or there is no temperature, that is all right. But if you do not take care, it may relapse. That is the point. Brahma*-bhutaḥ prasannātmā na śocati [Bg. 18.54]. These are brahma-bhutaḥ stage. But samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktim. If he does not go up to that point, mad-bhaktim labhate param, then you are unstable. You can fall down at any moment. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. If you are in Brahman stage, then you make further progress to understand Paramātmā. Then you must make further progress to understand the Supreme Person, God. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti. So unless you come to the stage of understanding Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no safety. Then he may fall down at any moment. Therefore we see so, so many Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, yogīs. They fall down. They fall down. Big, big sannyāsī, they, after studying so much... The Karpatraji, now he is fall down to politics. Vivekananda, he fell down to hospital. That is fall down. You say, brahma satya jagan mithya: "The world is false." Why you come down to false again? That means you did not get any substance in your so-called Brahman knowledge. Yaśomatīnandana: Vivekananda fell down still further because he said... *Prabhupāda: No, no, further... Not... At least we can see this, that after preaching Vedānta, he came in India. He became captivated with hospital, as if there was no hospital. There are many thousands of hospitals, and ordinary men, they are inclined to open hospitals. Why...? You have realized brahma*-satya. Why you come to hospital? And nobody questions. Your progress would have been completed when you, in... mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param [Bg. 18.54], if you had been promoted to the bhakti stage. That you haven't got. You come to the hospital stage. That means falling down. [break] Yaśomatīnandana: That is also propounded by him only, that "You can do anything as long as you know that you are not this body, you are soul." I heard that one day he went into the Muslim mosque and said, "Today I am a Muslim, so I can eat beef today. Tomorrow I am a Christian, so I can eat this, because I am not this body." Prabhupāda: That was done by Rāmakrishna also. And when he wanted permission from the proprietor of the temple, that "Now I shall practice the Muslim way of religion. So I shall eat beef," so the proprietor said, "Kindly go out and practice it outside." (laughter) [break] ...exemplified like this: on the glass it appears like a sun, but it is not sun. A reflection, pratibiṁbha. [break] A man can understand that dahi is nothing but milk. (Hindi) Why you wait for the milk? (Hindi) Indian man (4): Different effect of dahi and dudh. Prabhupāda: Why different effect? (Hindi) ...milk. Indian man (4): Pratices are changed after. Prabhupāda: That one has to understand. (Hindi with Sanskrit quotes) (end) Morning Walk -- November 7, 1975, Bombay Bhāgavata: ...for the Gaura Pūrṇimā festival this year. Prabhupāda: Where? Bhāgavata: On the land at the Caitanya Maṭha, at Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthsite. [break] Dr. Patel: ...to me. Prabhupāda: No, not to you. (laughter) Dr. Patel: You were explaining to me. Prabhupāda: No. No, no. I am explaining to everyone that "Whose business he struck?" That is the way. (Hindi saying) ...that "In the assembly there is some talks, but the talks which is concerned to somebody, he becomes sorry." Dr. Patel: You did not consult with me but I wanted to know the explanation. Prabhupāda: No. The explanation... (laughter) Now this doll should be displayed, that laboratory, they are testing urine, stool, and somebody is asking, "Here is a dead man. Why don't you test the urine and stool of this dead man and give him some injection?" This kind of doll should be displayed. The people will be interested. So I will give you suggestion. Not that stereotyped: "If one is doing something, I have to follow that." You should do something... Bhāgavata: Unique. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. It is already there in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Bhāgavata: Things show... Dolls displaying practical examples of the philosophy. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many things in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavata. Just like a dog is swimming, and somebody captures the tail of the dog, and he thinks that "The dog will help me to cross the ocean," this kind of. So everyone is trying for liberation, but they are catching the tail of a dog for liberation. Dr. Patel: He must get the ship in the form of God's name. Hm? Prabhupāda: In this way, practical instruction. Taking to yoga system, karma system, this system, that system, but he does not know that these are like the dog's tail. Nobody... Dr. Patel: (laughing) They are criticizing you. Prabhupāda: No, it is practically. Yes. You cannot cross over the sea by capturing the tail of a dog because you see the dog is swimming. So all this karma, jñāna, yoga, they are all failure. It is just like dog tail. You cannot cross over the nescience by capturing dog's tail. You must capture the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. Tan aham... Eh? Yaśomatīnandana: eśa tat... *Prabhupāda: No. Samuddhartā mṛtyu*-saṁsāra-sāgarāt. And explain the Bhagavad-gītā śloka. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-sāgarāt. From this ocean of birth and death, if one wants to be saved, he must come to Kṛṣṇa, not to the dog's tail. Dr. Patel: Come to the ship of Kṛṣṇa. That is what we are deciding. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: (laughing) That you are not coming to the point of the..., quickly. *Prabhupāda: Yes. In this kind of*-Bhagavad-gītā śloka, Bhāgavata śloka, and doll exhibition-so you prepare. I will give you the suggestion. *Dr. Patel: Sir, I have one point to ask you, that Vyāsa Bhagavān was not satisfied, doing all these things, and he finally composed the Bhāgavatam. But even Mahābhārata can be called equal to any of them. Mahābhārata, with the Bhagavad*-gītā in... With the Vidura-nīti, with the Viṣṇu-sahasra-nāma and all these things can be equal to any other... *Prabhupāda: Stri-śūdra*-dvija-bandhūnām [SB 1.4.25]. It is meant for less intelligent class of men: stri, woman; śūdra; *and dvija*-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu means persons who are born in high family but they have no education. Just like a man born in brāhmaṇa family... *Dr. Patel: Brahma*-bandhu. *Prabhupāda: ...but without education, without qualification, he wants to become a brāhmaṇa. They are called brahma*-bandhu or dvija-bandhu. So Mahābhārata is meant for the, these persons: stri-śūdra-dvija-bandhunam. They cannot understand directly the Vedic injunctions; *therefore it is simplified in a history. Mahābhārata is the history. History and stories, ordinary people, they can read with interest. But those who are advanced, they want higher philosophical thoughts. That is Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ vāstava-vastu vedyam atra [SB 1.1.2]. Nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalam idam [SB 1.1.3]. It is meant for higher class. So there are different literatures for different persons. Why there are eighteen Purāṇas, sattvic, rajasic, tamasic? Those who are tamasic, for them it is advised... Dr. Patel: Devī Purāṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. "Yes, you can eat meat. There is no harm. But you get it sacrificed before Goddess Kali." But this is not meant for the high*-class brāhmaṇa. This is meant for the third-class dvija. But still, he is induced to accept some authority. In this way there are Purāṇas. Somebody is recommended to worship Lord Śiva, somebody is recommended to worship Kali, Durga, Sarasvatī, many demigods. But Nārada Muni chastised his disciple that "You have done wrong. Why you have recommended all these things?" Jugupsitam. That is said there, that "People will take your authority, and they will be engaged in worshiping different demigods." Actually that is not required. Then he compiled Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, only the Supreme Lord worshiped. The same thing as Kṛṣṇa explained, mam ekam. That is success. So Vyāsadeva was very much... Dr. Patel: But, sir, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, He has already said in *Mahābhārata* also, you know? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: He composed Mahābhārata much before he composed Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: *Mahābhārata*... *Gītā* is part of *Mahābhārata*. Dr. Patel: That is what I said. He has already mentioned that, mam ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: "Those people who are worshiping other devas, they go to the other devas' house, and those who worship Me, they come to Me." Hm? *Prabhupāda: So that is explained in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavata. So if Tīrtha Mahārāja is displaying... *Bhāgavata: Yes, Jayapataka Mahārāja told me he was there. He saw the construction, and it's going to be two stories high, 75 feet long by 30 feet wide, and they're going to have dolls on both floors, Caitanya*-līlā. Prabhupāda: Hm. That's all right. You can do. Bhāgavata: But we should make different līlās, different dolls. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Modern men will understand Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam by display of dolls. Dr. Patel: What are the dolls you are talking about all this time? We don't know, sir. What it means? Prabhupāda: Dolls means the Bhāgavata śloka explained by doll display. Just like in your medical science there are sometimes... Dr. Patel: Models. Prabhupāda: Models, yes. Dr. Patel: Just you are doing pictures in your Bhāgavata... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Like that, a model. *Prabhupāda: Models. Yes, exactly the word, model. You can display... Everything is there in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, this anatomic, physiologic, how the child is growing within the womb of his mother. Bhāgavata: Different... *Prabhupāda: Yes. One day, fifth day, and like that. In seven months how it is developed. Everything is there in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavata. Then you can display the hell, different hells. Girirāja: Different hells. Bhāgavata: Hells, oh, Fifth Canto. Prabhupāda: Yes. How one is going by cheating others, by stealing. So everything. You can display, what is called? That planetary system? Indian man (1): Planetarium? Prabhupāda: Planetarium. According to planetarium. Dr. Patel: They have got a big planetarium in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got, but we have also got. So it is little difference. Just like we are calculating that the sun is the beginning of the planets, sun, then moon. Therefore we say "Sunday, Monday." This is very quite reasonable. Tuesday. Dr. Patel: And Tuesday is next word because Maṅgala. Prabhupāda: Yes. And planet is 1,006,000 miles above, above. And Saturday, Saturn is the last. So now sun is calculated to be 93,000,000's miles from earth, and if the moon is still further 1,600,000, then it becomes about fifteen hundred thousand miles. No. Fifteen million miles. So how they are going, in four days, fifteen million? Dr. Patel: You ask me? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Dr. Patel: Well, sir, there is no going and coming. All are what we are, wherever. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is another thing. That is another thing, that with their this sputnik, how they can go in four days fifteen millions miles? Dr. Patel: You see, in the cosmos, the whole cosmos is as big... Modern scientists understand it by what we call the force of attraction and repulsion. When you go in between the two, there is no attraction, repulsion. Then you just have this and it goes on. Prabhupāda: No, no. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhāgavata: So we should display the real planetary system... Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhāgavata: As it really exists. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhāgavata: And then we can put underneath explanations in Bengali and English. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dr. Patel: In Sanskrit and English because Sanskrit contains Bengali and Gujarati and all. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a good idea, good idea. Dr. Patel: I go, sir. Prabhupāda: Hm? Time is up? Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...many things to be displayed by these models, and we can utilize that. Bhāgavata: Like the pictures we have in the *Bhāgavatam* and the *Gītā*, then we can make them into doll displays, some of those pictures. Prabhupāda: But the idea was that in our big temple I wanted to display. Bhāgavata: Oh. You didn't want a separate building. Prabhupāda: No. We wanted to display where is... Passerby: Oh, haribol! *Prabhupāda: The Vaikuṇṭha planet, where is the Goloka planet, where is this material world*-in this way. Bhāgavata: So if that's what you want, then we should not make a permanent structure? We should make some temporary structure like last year. Prabhupāda: That you decide yourself. Bhāgavata: So we should engage the local dollmakers in doing this. Prabhupāda: First of all you have your place; then make dolls. But dolls should not be exactly like this, in the same way. But when you make actually, then I will give you how the models should be made. Now, how to do, where to do, that, it is your business. You decide, some of yourself, and do the needful. You have not yet done any plan for the big temple? Saurabha: I have been asking Jayapataka for about one year to please send me some plan of the land so that I can place all these buildings, because there is no... Bhāgavata: The blueprints are done. Jayapataka is revising them now. They are in māyāpur. He is reviewing all the blueprints. They are all done. And when they are finished... When he finishes reviewing them, then we'll have them sent here immediately. I just sent them to māyāpur. Saurabha: As soon as I get the plans, I will make immediately, finish everything. We can make a master plan for the whole situation. Prabhupāda: So ask him to send immediately site plan and begin. Saurabha: Yes. Prabhupāda: And then others things will be there. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tīrtha Mahārāja, for the last fifty years, he did not do anything. Now he is afraid. You know Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī? Bhāgavata: In Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. He approached me that "You just have a big hall in the Yogapīṭha." I immediately accepted, that "Yes, if you give us the charge we can spend immediately ten lakhs." So Śrīdhara Mahārāja has said that "If it is gone to Swami Mahārāja, then there will be no trace of Tīrtha Mahārāja." Therefore he is trying for that. So I think we shall have, according to our original plan, the temple, and in that temple we shall display all these dolls: "Here is Vaikuṇṭhaloka, here is this loka, this loka, this loka." That will be... [break] ...we make some arrangement for exhibition of our books very nicely. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're going to have booths in māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Yes. That Tīrtha Mahārāja will not be able to show. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Never. Prabhupāda: He has no capacity. *Yaśomatīnandana: He will display only one Brahma*-saṁhitā, that also by Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. *Bhāgavata: So we will make a very nice book display. I will see that there is a very nice book display made with the Caitanya*-caritamṛtas and the Bhāgavatams displayed. [break] ...the governor of Bengal, and he was quite congenial. He was friendly. And he agreed that if we contact him and make the proper arrangements he might come and see you there when you come to Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Bhāgavata: I was thinking if we had him for the festival, to come to the festival, that would be a very prestigious... *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why don't you arrange for that? You have to arrange. Yes. [break] ...king. Their constitution, first word is "the king can do no wrong." Yes, that is the Vedic system. Suppose a king beheads somebody by his own sword, as it was being done. Nobody can charge him that "Without any trial he has killed this man." No. Whatever is done... Just like we take Kṛṣṇa, apāpa viddham. Kṛṣṇa is never touched with any sinful activities. Apāpa*-viddham. Tejiyasam na doṣaya [SB 10.33.29]. Just as the sun, because it is very, very powerful, nothing can infect it. These are the dangers. (Hindi?) Of course, if you want to keep one in very exalted post, at the same time, if you want to find fault with him, then that is not good. That is not good. That is also stated, that arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matiḥ. If somebody thinks that the Deity is made of stone and he criticizes, that is not allowed. If one thinks spiritual master as ordinary human being, that is not allowed. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matiḥ. So those who are in highly exalted post of the state, you cannot find out fault with him. That is real Vedic way. Otherwise, if he is taken as ordinary citizen, then he is... What is the meaning of his exalted post? Indian man: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) You cannot find out fault with him. As like in the court, if you find out some fault with the judge, you will be punished immediately-"Contempt of court. You cannot do that." It will be punished, because while he is on the seat of the judge, if somebody finds out fault, then his position will be lower. That is not good. I think the judgment is right. Three persons*-the president, prime minister, and the speaker-cannot be, what is called? Indian man (2): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Parliament can do that "We have no faith." What is called? "No confidence." "No confidence resolution." The Parliament has not done. "No confidence." So how the court can decide? [break] An open fact that this election... All elections are done illegally. So why this poor prime minister is captured? Everyone does. (Hindi) [break] Military police. Indian man (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. [break] Prabhupāda: ...is occupying very exalted post, even in this material world, he is favored by Kṛṣṇa. Sanātana Gosvāmī, when the Nawab said that "I shall arrest you," then he replied that "You are representative of God, so if you arrest me I have no objection." He said that. He was Mohammedan, and he was a Hindu brāhmaṇa. He never felt that "How the Mohammedan can arrest me?" No. He said that "You are representative of God because you are in such exalted post." (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Kṛṣṇa also says, "Anyone who is, materially even, very opulent, that means he has got some power." (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) [break] ...in politics, how to treat with enemies, how to treat with friends, how to make... In politics there are so many things, diplomacy. So he said, "What is this nonsense? Everyone should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. They are all equal." His father became angry. What is that? Indian man (3): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhāgavata: He said it is all nonsense. Prabhupāda: Yes. For a devotee, these politics, diplomacy, these are nonsense. But sometimes they have to do. Sate sarthaṁ samācaret. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhāgavata: "One should never trust a politician or a woman." [break](end) Morning Walk -- November 8, 1975, Bombay Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (1): Are the animals complacent with their hellish condition of life? Prabhupāda: Animal? Devotee (1): Yes. Like the dog. Is he happy to be a dog? Prahupada: Yes. Everyone is happy. Dr. Patel: There is one story in regard to this, sir... [break] Prabhupāda: The answer? You have got the answer? Devotee (1): Excuse me? Dr. Patel: No. He was not. He was not attentive. I answered on his behalf with that story. Bhāgavata: Once that happened to Indra, isn't it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Anyone, in any condition of life, he thinks that he is happy. That is māyā. Dr. Patel: If all the five holes of indriyas are made to look outside, get our pleasure from out, if they have turned within and get pleasure from yourself, then you are happy. That is in Kaṭhopaniṣad. Prabhupāda: You can see practically. People are living in, what is called, that zone, where everything is ice? Devotees: The North Pole. Prabhupāda: They are thinking happy. They do not come out. Bhāgavata: Eskimos. *Prabhupāda: I have got practical experience. In my childhood I used to go with my father for some purchasing some bhauma(?) flour in the interior districts. So there was one servant engaged. One day he did not come. So my father asked me, "He is living in there, in that cottage. You can go and ask him." So I went to his cottage. Practically there was no roof, and rain was dropping. So I saw him in a very bad condition. Then I asked him, "Why don't you come to Calcutta with us?" So he replied, "No sir, we cannot go, leaving home. (laughter) This is home." I have got practical experience. "Home sweet home." Janani janma*-bhumiś ca svargād api gariyasi: Everyone is thinking that his birthplace and his mother is better than the heaven. That is the psychology. So everyone, however abominable... Everyone is living in abominable condition. That's a fact. But everyone is thinking that "Who is happier than me?" Everyone. This is called māyā. Unless he thinks, he cannot live. Devotee (1): What is the throwing potency of māyā? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (1): It is described that there are two potencies of māyā. Dr. Patel: Mam eva prapadyante māyām etan taranti te. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (1): What is an example of the throwing potency of māyā? Prabhupāda: Throwing potency means somebody comes to take Kṛṣṇa consciousness and māyā will dictate, "Why you have come here? Go and enjoy life outside." And he goes away. That is throwing. Dr. Patel: Crying? Prabhupāda: Throwing, that gets him out. This is throwing. And this is called... What is called? The Sanskrit? Prakṣepatmika. Dr. Patel: Prakṣeka? Prabhupāda: Prakṣepatmika. Dr. Patel: Oh, prakṣepatmika. Prabhupāda: Yes. And another is avaranatmika. Dr. Patel: Avarana. *Prabhupāda: Avarana. He is in the most abominable condition, and he is thinking he is very happy. This is avaranatmika, covering him to see in the real position. Otherwise we are asking everyone that "You come here. I am giving you room. Take prasādam. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Read these books." "No. Why shall I come?" What is the difficulty here? But nobody will come. He will rot in the home*-anxiety-how to maintain, how to... This is going on. This is called prakṣepatmika, avaranātmika. He will prefer rotting as hog and dog, but he will never prefer to live as Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is māyā. So many people are there on the beach. You invite them, "Please come to our place. Live nicely. We shall give you nice room, nice prasādam. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Nobody will come. Dr. Patel: It is good that they are not coming. Otherwise you won't have this place... Prabhupāda: No, no. We have enough place. We are not depending on Dr. Patel, but Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Devotees: Haribol! Haribol! Dr. Patel: You rate me very badly. Prabhupāda: No, because you are saying like that. You do not know that I started this business without nothing, you see, with practical nothing. I offered Mr. Nair that "I will give you two lakhs, and the balance I'll give you in three years." So who will believe? "He is a beggar, and he promises to give me fifteen lakhs of rupees within three years." Who will believe that? He knew that "He will not be able to pay. So whatever two lakhs, three lakhs he gives, that will be mine. That's all. Bas." And I was thinking, "He is such a nice gentleman that he will take money, little, little, and I will collect and pay. He is a nice gentleman," I was thinking. And he was thinking, "He's a great fool, (laughter) that he is offering me two lakhs, three lakhs, and he will never be able to pay me balance." So this was the transaction beginning. Dr. Patel: He had made such transaction before also, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. He knew that. I thought, "He is a very nice man. He'll take money one after another, so let me take it." This was the beginning. Dr. Patel: I think he died before you completed the transaction. He died, no? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: So both Jagamanta, Hapebo,(?) all of them I will one day drive and then you'll... Prabhupāda: But as soon as they will not get tea, they will go away. You may bring all the Bombay residents, and when they will see there is no tea, they will go away. (laughter) Nayanābhirāma: Śrīla Prabhupāda, that happened in Vṛndāvana once. Prabhupāda: I know that. That is the trouble. Bhāgavata: They would not stay in the guesthouse because they could not make their tea. Nayanābhirāma: He said, "Without tea I cannot live." So he went away. Dr. Patel: Where? Here this Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: No, that I have allowed, that they can make their own tea. Dr. Patel: You don't allow the tea here in the...? Prabhupāda: No. Brahmānanda: They can make their own tea. There's a special area for that. Dr. Patel: Many of these boys must have taking tea in past. How they could stop it? Prabhupāda: What is that? Dr. Patel: Many of them must be taking... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Dr. Patel: Not now, before. Prabhupāda: Oh, before they are taking anything. (laughter) Dr. Patel: How could they stop it? By virtue of the strength of the mind. That man, if he has got no strength of mind, he should not... *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. The government spent millions of dollars to stop LSD habit. But when they come to me, I say, "You cannot do it." They immediately stopped. Therefore U.S. government is sympathetic to this movement. They are surprised how these drug*-addicted men are becoming servant of Kṛṣṇa. One Dr. Judah, he has written a book about us, that the "wonderful..." Dr. Patel: LSD begets a condition of the mind just like... Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be... *Dr. Patel: ...nirakalpa*-samādhi. One man told me that's a very good... (laughing) I say we... Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. Nonsense. Fools. *Dr. Patel: Nirakalpa*-samādhi. But they must be getting some sort of condition of the mind, though temporary. That is why they must have turned to that, no? Prabhupāda: There is no consciousness. Dr. Patel: Were you having the experience? Prabhupāda: First of all you must give it up. Our philosophy is first of all you must give it up, all these bad habits. Dr. Patel: That is the first condition among Vaiṣṇavas, that they should not have any of these, neither... *Prabhupāda: Illicit sex, then meat*-eating. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jaya. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Bhāgavata: ...leaving the four sinful activities. Then one can develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Prabhupāda: No, this is practicing. This is practicing. Unless one is... Yeṣam tu anta*-gataṁ pāpam. Unless one is free from sinful activities, one cannot understand God. It is not possible. God is not so cheap. Dr. Patel: Practice and vairāgya both are necessary, not only vairāgya. No? Prabhupāda: Hm? Dr. Patel: Practice and vairāgya both are necessary. *Prabhupāda: Vairāgya means when you are not addicted to sinful life. That is vairāgya. People have got attachment for sinful activities. [break] ...deve bhagavati bhakti*-yoga-prayojitaḥ, janayaty aśu vairāgyam. That is the vairāgya way. You cannot practice vairāgya without Vasudeva's shelter. Dr. Patel: Vairāgya generates by extreme bhakti or by extreme knowledge. Not otherwise. Knowledge is generated by bhakti, no doubt, but then you must have complete knowledge of what is this and what is that. Prabhupāda: Without bhakti, knowledge is artificial, because knowledge means to accept the Supreme Lord as Supreme. That is knowledge. Dr. Patel: That is knowledge. And then this is also... From that knowledge, when you know that this is all false, then it sort of, in a sense, generated within you, to be... *Prabhupāda: That knowledge is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. The so-called knowledge is useless. It has no value. māyāyapahṛta-jñāna. What is the test? Na māṁ prapadyante: "If he had knowledge, he would have surrendered to Me," but he does not do so. Dr. Patel: Jñānavan māṁ prapadyante. That is knowledge. Jñāna means knowledge. That knowledge is the Supreme. *Prabhupāda: But that knowledge means actually jñānavān. Otherwise it is false knowledge. māyāyapahṛta*-jñāna. If you do not know what is God, then what is the meaning of your knowledge? Bhāgavata: You explain in the *Gītā* that Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is knowledge. Therefore so many mahātmās, sādhus, yogis, they are all useless, all useless because they have no bhakti. Simply artificially cheating people. [break] This is a society of cheaters and cheated. If you want to be cheated, there are many cheaters who will come and cheat you. That's all. *Bhāgavata: Just like the Guru Maharaj*-ji. Now the mother is denouncing. She is saying he is no more qualified to be Bhagavān. Now his brother, he is Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: That's all, anyway, a third class. *Dr. Patel: I think we should not talk about this. Talk something about Bhagavad*-gītā and Bhagavat. Then, sir? *Prabhupāda: Yes. These people are third*-class men. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: māyām etan taranti te *Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...explained in Bhagavad*-gītā. Unfortunately the rascals will not take it. That is the difficulty. *Dr. Patel: In my time, when, your time, I mean our time, in the school there was a compulsion of learning the Mahābhārata and Rāmāyaṇa. Now these modern principals,(?) they don't know anything about it. Absolutely there is no knowledge. My daughter said, "What is Rāmāyaṇa?" I had to look at a English edition of Rāmāyaṇa and give her Mahābhārata. That is what they are teaching now in the schools. So this race is going bankrupt. What about knowing about Bhagavad*-gītā and Bhāgavata? They don't know simple Mahābhārata. Prabhupāda: [break] ...city one house with twenty rooms on the riverside. Dr. Patel: I was told that Lasteri's house, you know, sir, Charpak Lasteri.(?) Prabhupāda: What do you think will be the price? Dr. Patel: I don't know about price, sir. But their prices are as high as in Bombay. Whose is this house? Who is the owner? [break] Prabhupāda: ...jīvanti. The trees, they live many, many hundreds of thousands of years more than men. Indian man (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Does it mean he is sinless? (laughter) Indian (1): He's a good man. They are doing good. They are doing good. Prabhupāda: He is... It is most condemned life, the trees. They cannot move one inch. They have to suffer all these natural disturbances. One who is too much sinful, he is condemned to stand up here for five thousand years. Indian (1): (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Dvaraka, sir. They had a plan to go to Dvaraka. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: You have to take me. You told me you will take me. I am waiting for it. Bhāgavata: When I was in Dvaraka I stayed at the Birla guesthouse, and they said that any time you come you can stay there in Mr. Birla's room right on the oceanfront, very nice room. Prabhupāda: This time is good, Dvaraka? Dr. Patel: We can go by train to Braman. (?) Bhāgavata: We have to take a long trip in the car from Jangagara(?) to Dvaraka. [break] Prabhupāda: ...like this place. And I have seen London, New York. (laughter) Dr. Patel: I have not seen Hardwar myself. Bhāgavata: Hardwar, there is also very new āśrama that was built up there only a few years ago called Africa āśrama, in Hardwar. And the sannyāsī there is very well known to me and he also said any time you come you can stay there at his place. Very nice āśrama. Dr. Patel: Hardwar there are many places to stay. Indian man (2): Even this, our (indistinct) āśrama people have got a very big area there. Nearly a hundred rooms are there. Dr. Patel: Others, also. You can... [break] Prabhupāda: Patel, he has got. Dr. Patel: It is not Patel. This Das and company. [break] There must be a temple coming. Do you know? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Dr. Patel: All Bengalis must be the member. Is it a fact that this temple, Jagannātha Purī, was originally a temple for Buddhists and then it was converted into... No? Prabhupāda: This is all these speculators, rascals. Dr. Patel: Who are the chief men in the temple committee of Jagannātha temple? Prabhupāda: Government. Dr. Patel: No, no. Prabhupāda: Yes, government. Dr. Patel: How can they be? Government, no. Temples are never controlled by government. Prabhupāda: Although the king is there... Yaśomatīnandana: The government of the king was controlling. Now the government is. Dr. Patel: Which king? Prabhupāda: The magistrate is the president of the maṭha. Dr. Patel: Dvaraka temple was under control of Mahārāja of Baroda, but he appointed a committee of Vaiṣṇavas to control it. It was completely free. [break] (laughing) You have been very unkind to people. *Prabhupāda: He is a first*-class Carvaka, he is. Bhāgavata: The dog is also trying to defend himself against the Lord. *Prabhupāda: No. That is not the question. Question is anyone who does not know what is God, he is a Carvaka, that's all. Mūḍha nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param ayayam. He's a Carvaka. That's all. The same bodily concept. Russian, American, Chinese. Then? Yasyātmā*-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhātuke, sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Indian man (3): They are innocent. They are not... Dr. Patel: Innocent? Prabhupāda: No, they are not innocent; they are stupid. (laughter) They are not innocent. They will never agree... Indian man (3): There are so many Indians, they are also not... Dr. Patel: No, they are also like that. *Prabhupāda: Huh? The simple thing explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā... Simple thing explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, asmin dehe dehinām: "Within this body there is the proprietor." So they do not understand it. Huh? Indian man (3): That comes after, after... Indian man (4): Guru, you should go? Then only perfect knowledge he will get. Yaśomatīnandana: Guru is there. Why don't they come? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru is there, but they won't come. They won't come. Dr. Patel: That jagat guru is, you are, sir. *Prabhupāda: It is injunction of the śāstra. Tad*-vijñānārtham sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. But who is coming to guru? Guru is canvassing whole world, "Please come to me." Dr. Patel: (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: ...I am in Bombay, but how many Gujaratis are my chela? There is only one Gujarati. Dr. Patel: One is sufficient. He represents the whole Gujaratis. Prabhupāda: That's all right. (laughter) Brahmānanda: And Prabhupāda had to rescue him from America. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. I will have to preach, bringing men from America and Europe. Nobody is coming here. Everyone is talking big, big. Indian man (3): God has to go to burden this one also? Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no. This is the difficulty, that whatever I am doing... Therefore I am very much in anxiety when the government says, "Now you go away. Your visa is finished." Dr. Patel: From here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Your visa from here? Prabhupāda: Mine, no. My disciples! Dragging. Dr. Patel: Well, government... I have heard like this, but government think that in this group there may be some those C.I.A. people. I don't know whether they are right... Prabhupāda: Let government supplies some men who does not belong to the C.I.A. And where is that? That is all. Dr. Patel: That is what they say. Prabhupāda: They may say anything nonsense. Dr. Patel: That all these, all may not be sādhus. There may be C.I.A., one of them. They'll find out what these fellows are, and then they will do all that. Bhāgavata: Well, first one of their C.I.D. will have to live like we live, and then we can see. Prabhupāda: No, no. Actually Indians are not interested. That is the fact. They: "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa? We have chanted the Hare Kṛṣṇa for hundreds of years. What is the effect?" That is the... Indian man (5): This is the main problem. [break] Dr. Patel: That they are doing, this and that. I have to explain them that "You are all humbug because they don't know you well; you don't know them well." Prabhupāda: They will create nuisance because there is no sense. It is better nuisance. Who is coming to make sense, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? Nobody is coming. Then nuisance is better than no sense. (Bengali:) Naya mameche khana mama baba:(?) "To possess no mama, it is better to have a blind mama." So they are blind mama. That's all right. Where is the real mama? All mamas are... Dr. Patel: (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: Mama means mother's brother. Dr. Patel: No, but here in Gujarat... (Gujarati) Mama means he is a fool. [break] Devotee (2): Now is not nice. The fruit is not nice. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Devotee (2): You speak in Italian. Indian man (6): I speak little only. Devotee (2): Speak in Italian. Dr. Patel: Don't worry. [break] *Prabhupāda: If he comes to your house you must receive him properly. Gṛhaṁ satrum api praptam viśvas tam akuto*-bhayam. (end) Morning Walk -- November 10, 1975, Bombay Dr. Patel: ...that man, and then Krodha Mahārāja knew that this man would be perhaps hanged by the officials. So the engineer... [break] He was smuggled into Africa. And there, in Africa, he learned Bengali by himself, reading book. And he was Bengali scholar. [break] Prabhupāda: He was professor of Presidents' College, Calcutta. Their opinion is Sanskrit is the mother of all languages. Dr. Patel: In Russian language there are so many Sanskrit words. *Prabhupāda: Deva*-nāgarī. In the heavenly planets this language is... Heavenly planet the Sanskrit language is used. Therefore it is called deva-nāgarī. Nāgara means town, and deva means demigod. This language is spoken in the heavenly planets, deva-nāgara. But these rascals, they think there is no living entity in any other planet except this. Dr. Patel: Now the scientists have started saying... Prabhupāda: So what kind of scientists? They can change their opinion? Dr. Patel: Then they are learning science. Prabhupāda: Rascals, say rascals. No, no, say... Learning means rascals. Dr. Patel: (laughs) Then we are all rascals. Prabhupāda: No. We are learning not from rascal; we are learning from the perfect. We may be rascals, but learning is not rascal. Dr. Patel: No, "we," I said, not learning. *Prabhupāda: If they change... "Now the scientists are thinking that"*-that means they are rascals. Dr. Patel: No, but as a matter of fact, they understand this thing from years back, that there should be life on other planets than earth. Prabhupāda: Oh, many scientists say. I was known to one doctor Shaha in Allahabad. He said there are life. There is no question of disbelieving. *Brahmānanda: There's that article that Hayagrīva sent. The title of the article was, "New Discovery Creates Turmoil Amongst Scientists." Some scientists have now discovered some new sub*-atomic particles. This has completely created turmoil amongst the scientists. All of their theories now are all... Dr. Patel: Those are elementary particle, smaller than the element, present elementary particles. Brahmānanda: Yes. And they found a lot of them, so now they don't know what to think. *Dr. Patel: Because they are trying to search it out by different matter. This ancient... I mean, the Āryans tried to search it out by different matter, by yoga*-vijñāna. *Prabhupāda: Śruti, from the Vedas. Veda*-pramāṇa. Śruti-pramāṇa That is pramāṇa. And nonsense, speculative, that is not pramāṇa. That is speculation. Brahmānanda: They make some theory, and they become very complacent, that "Oh, now, this is it." Prabhupāda: "Now we are advanced." And next year, again advanced. Next year again advanced. Dr. Patel: Real scientists don't think that. You must not believe that. Real scientist says, "This may be like this." Prabhupāda: But who... Dr. Patel: It is their opinion. Prabhupāda: How to know who is real and who is...? Dr. Patel: They are learning, after all, they are learning. They have not reached that. They are not yuktas. They are in the process of getting it. Prabhupāda: So why they say there is no God? Dr. Patel: Who says that there is no God? Scientists don't say so. Some of them may be saying. Jagadish Chandra Bose did say so? He was a great scientist. Did he say so? No. If a few scientists say there is no God, that does not mean all the scientists. We are practically all of us, scientists, this architect, this Mr. Joshi, myself. We don't say there is no God. So, sir, don't say that scientists say. Prabhupāda: Because you have become Vaiṣṇava, that is the... Dr. Patel: Not... Even before that. Prabhupāda: Unless one becomes Vaiṣṇava... Dr. Patel: A real scientist finds God's working in every cell, every atom, every molecule. Prabhupāda: No, no, our point is unless one has become Vaiṣṇava, he remains a fool. Dr. Patel: That is your saying. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the statement of Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is a fool, rascal. That' s all. This is the conclusion. We are fool, undoubtedly, but we take the words of Kṛṣṇa. He is not fool. *Dr. Patel: (laughs) No, but He says, ye tu sarvāṇī karmāṇi mayi sannyasya mat*-parāḥ. *Prabhupāda: The mat*-parāḥ, this is mat-parāḥ. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept it. That is mat-parāḥ. Mat-parāḥ means whatever Kṛṣṇa says, accept it. That's all. That is mat-parāḥ. And if I say, "I don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, whether He was existing," that is not mat-parāḥ. Dr. Patel: That is different. Prabhupāda: That is different. Dr. Patel: But Kṛṣṇa says through so many things. Kṛṣṇa says. Through every leaf, every atom... Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Patel: ...every molecule and every living cell, He says what He is. Prabhupāda: So everyone, our... Dr. Patel: That is what the scientists think. *Prabhupāda: Scholars, they think like that, "Kṛṣṇa is fictitious. This Bhagavad*-gītā was imagined," as if Kṛṣṇa speaking and Arjuna hearing, and there was no war as Kurukṣetra. This is their reply. There was no five thousand years. Dr. Patel: Suppose, sir, it may be like that, as they say, but this is an acme of the knowledge. That's all. Even though it may be fabricated, it is the acme. *Prabhupāda: Acme of the knowledge you are taking, but you don't believe the source of knowledge. You are so acme of the knowledge. You don't believe in the source of the knowledge, so where is knowledge? That is darkness. Tama and jyoti*-two things are there. This material world is tama, darkness, because here actually there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is almost absent. And jyoti means there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That we were discussing last night. Taṭastha-śakti. Taṭastha... The jīvas, they are in the marginal position between tama and jyoti. Dr. Patel: Tamas is dark and jyoti is light. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So the jīva is between these two things. Therefore they are called taṭastha, marginal. Sometimes you may be in darkness and sometimes you may be in jyoti. That is your position. So those who are accepting Kṛṣṇa's word, they are in jyoti. And those who are interpreting Kṛṣṇa in darkness, they are in darkness. Unless one has accepted Kṛṣṇa as He is, he is in darkness. Therefore Kṛṣṇa describing him, mūḍha, narādhama. That man might have been in the jyoti, but he is losing the chance. Therefore he is mūḍha, narādhama. He had the chance of understanding Kṛṣṇa, but he is neglecting willfully. Therefore mūḍha naradhāma. Men so much learned? māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ: [Bg. 7.15] That learning has no meaning. That is another darkness. A person, without being learned, he is thinking, "I am learned." That is another darkness. That is another darkness. Dr. Patel: Abhimānam Prabhupāda: Abhimānam. A person without knowledge, when he professes to be very learned and intelligent, he is more in darkness. Dr. Patel: But really, sir, very learned people are very doubtful about their learning, to tell the truth. I had my professor who was a Nobel prize winner in London, and he used to be very doubtful, everything, what he said. "It may be or may not be. Who knows? God only knows," he used to say. So we cannot say that all are in darkness. Prabhupāda: So if God knows, take the words of God. Dr. Patel: That he must be taking I mean, in his own way. Prabhupāda: In his own way he cannot take. (laughter) That is another di... That is another foolishness. You cannot take... No. Dr. Patel: There are many ways by which to know God, is it not? Prabhupāda: You must take God's word as it is. That is jyoti. The same example can be... Just like the sunlight. Sunlight is light. You have to take it as it is. If you want to know wherefrom the light is coming, what is there in the sun, that is beyond your jurisdiction. But light is there. Take it. That's all. Dr. Patel: The scientists will analyze the light and call it... Prabhupāda: Scientist is a rascal. How can he go to the sun? How can he go the sun and study sun? Therefore he's a rascal. You simply take: "Light is there from the sun." That's all. You go there or not go there, the light is there. You take it. That's all. It finishes the business. This jyoti is called also Brahman. Jyoti. So when you understood, want to understand wherefrom this jyoti or light is coming, Kṛṣṇa is replying, brahmano aham pratistha. Bas, your knowledge is perfect. Why don't you take it? Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the source of this light." Dr. Patel: Everything. Prabhupāda: No, everything means this also. And particularly, particularly He says, brahmaṇo ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. So this is the easiest method to get knowledge. *Dr. Patel: Now, brahmaṇo pratiṣṭhāham, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. How the atmā becomes brahma-bhūtaḥ? Prabhupāda: Take the words of Kṛṣṇa; you become Brahman. Dr. Patel: That means he becomes Brahman. He realizes himself as Brahman. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Brahman he is, but the rascal, he is thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian." That is rascaldom. He is Brahman. By origin he is Brahman, but rascal, due to his rascaldom, he is thinking that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Indian," "I am American." That is rascaldom. Otherwise he's Brahman. So when he gives up this wrong conception of life and accepts that "I am part and parcel of the Supreme Brahman," that is brahma*-bhuta [SB 4.30.20]. Otherwise he is jīva-bhutaḥ. (aside): Thank you. Jīva bhūtaḥ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat: [Bg. 7.5] "These living entities, jīva bhūtaḥ, they are conducting the whole universal affairs." Jīva-bhūtaṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate. Without jīva what is the value? These buildings are constructed because the jīvas have taken the material from the matter and done. So everything is like that. Why these trees are there? The jīvas have taken the shape of this tree, and it looks beautiful. Jīva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam... Everything is like that. So that is jīva. So that jīva... In the material concept of life the tree is thinking, "I am tree," the dog is thinking, "I am dog," I am thinking, "I am Indian," you are thinking something else. So this is jīva-bhūta. And when he understands that ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is brahma-bhūta. Simple thing. Ekatvam. Ekatvam... Dr. Patel: Anupaśyati. *Prabhupāda: Anupaśyati. That ekatvam, when he actually becomes brahma-bhūtaḥ-we understand that all these living entities, we are part and parcel of God, paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]*-that is ekatvam, that "We are all servants." But the rascals are thinking,"I am master." Dr. Patel: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate. *Prabhupāda: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu means that every one of us, we are servant of God. That is ekatvam. Ekatvam anupaśyati. Anu means always. Anu means following the authority. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] (Hindi) It is not that something, matter, becomes brahma*-bhūtaḥ. No. He is Brahman. Dr. Patel: He realizes that he is Brahman. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. Dr. Patel: He was not realizing it then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: He was realizing he was body. *Prabhupāda: So long he thinks himself as the body, he is jīva*-bhutaḥ. Dr. Patel: You said very well yesterday. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Jīva*-bhūtaḥ. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. They are thinking, "Indian, American, brāhmaṇa, śūdra, man, dog, cat, tree." This is jīva-bhutaḥ. And when he understands that "I am not these things, I am Brahman," that is brahma... Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu begins from this brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. His teaching is completely on the spiritual platform. Therefore people misunderstand us. Because we are speaking from the spiritual platform everything, they cannot understand. It requires practice. Abhyāsa-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā [Bg. 8.8]. Hm? What is that? *Dr. Patel: Cetasā nānya*-gāminā, that you must have continuous fixing of your mind. *Prabhupāda: No, that... No, I know that. But second line, abhyāsa yoga*-yuktena cetasā nānya gāminā [Bg. 8.8], that "One can understand the param puruṣa." *Dr. Patel: Abhyāsa*-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā... *Prabhupāda: Upaiti puruṣam param, like that. So this bhakti*-yoga means abhyāsa-yoga, practice. Dr. Patel: Sir, Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Then he gets real bhakti. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: He becomes real bhakta, when he realizes that he's soul and not body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Till then he is not a bhakta. *Prabhupāda: That is the beginning. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, in the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā, He says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Because everyone is rascal, he is thinking, "I am this body." Arjuna was also thinking, "How shall I kill my other side, my brother, my nephews?" Bodily. Therefore the beginning of spiritual education is to understand that "I am not this body; *I am soul." That is the beginning. For so many years people are reading Bhagavad*-gītā, but still they are in bodily concept. That is the misfortune. Dr. Patel: Mahāmāyā duratyayā. Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (dog barking) No, no, no, don't. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (1): Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Jaya. [break]... concept of life means animals. So just see. In the whole world is going on, nationalism. *Dr. Patel: Bhramāyān sarva*-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Dr. Patel: Bhramayan sarva*-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. Prabhupāda: What is this nationalism? We said, there is no such thing as nationalism in the Vedic literature, no such thing. Yaśomatīnandana: Nationalism? Prabhupāda: Yes. Nowadays nationalism is very prominent, and we don't find this nationalism. Dr. Patel: Now they are going to rationalism. *Prabhupāda: Rationalism is required, not nationalism. No. This nationalism... The Americans and the Russians, they are enemies and friend only on this principle. Prahlāda Mahārāja was astonished, "What is this enemy and friend?" because he is maha*-bhāgavata. This is materialism. This is materialism. (aside:) Jaya. Why one should be treated as enemy and as friend? Everyone is servant of God. [break] He is going on at night also? Devotee (2): No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Prabhupāda: Intelligence is above the mind. Intelligence controls the mind. Devotee (3): And steady intelligence, that is acquired by hearing? We can keep our intelligence steady by hearing? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): But as soon as we stop hearing then the intelligence... Prabhupāda: Mind is disturbed. Devotee (3): Then the mind will take over. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If the mind is not controlled by intelligence, then it will disturb. Then the senses will be disturbed, agitated. Then you are bound up by karma. Unrestricted sense gratification means karma*-bandhana, bound up by the laws of karma. And bound up by the laws of karma means repetition of birth and death in different species. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantor dehopapatti [SB 3.31.1]. Different bodies means resultant action of karma. So if you want to save yourself from this resultant action of karma, then the first thing is to control the mind. That is yoga system, to control the mind. But one who has got intelligence, he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and the mind is automatically controlled. Yogīnām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatāntarātmanā [Bg. 6.47]. Devotee (3): So the jīva is still higher than the intelligence. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. Devotee (3): And if he is to control his intelligence by hearing... Prabhupāda: Hearing about Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (3): Hearing about Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): But if his desire is not steady. For instance, if he... *Prabhupāda: If he hears about Kṛṣṇa, everything will be done nicely. śṛṇvatāṁ sva*-kathā kṛṣṇaḥ. Kṛṣṇa will help. And that is natural position, to hear about Kṛṣṇa, to act for Kṛṣṇa, to think of Kṛṣṇa. Then everything is all right. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is the easiest process and genuine, without any failure. Ceto-darpana-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Devotee (3): When you say "genuine," that means that it works... Prabhupāda: That is real spiritual activity. (aside:) Take it. Devotee (3): So while one is chanting, he is automatically Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. Chanting means hearing Kṛṣṇa, and that is Kṛṣṇa conscious. And then acting. The more he chants, his dirty things in the heart becomes cleansed, and he acts for Kṛṣṇa's service. Devotee (3): So the perfection, then, is to chant constantly. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee (3): The perfection of chanting is to be chanting twenty*-four hours. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): Constantly. Prabhupāda: Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. That is the injunction, sadā. Sadā means always. *Devotee (3): Well, if one is not able to do that in the beginning... For instance, if during twenty*-four hours... *Prabhupāda: Therefore we are constructing temples. At least you will think, "We are constructing Kṛṣṇa's temple." Because you are habituated to work, work for Kṛṣṇa. Go to sell books. Print books. Type for Kṛṣṇa. This is also the same thing. Because you are accustomed to all these things, so nirbandhe kṛṣṇa*-sambandha. When it is connected with Kṛṣṇa it is as good as chanting. Therefore we are so much eager. Otherwise there is no need of temple; we can chant anywhere. But that stage is not so easy, like Haridāsa Ṭhākura we can sit down and chant anywhere. That is not possible. Then you'll sleep. Therefore these things are required. Everyone, we are working for this temple. Every one of us, we know that "This temple not for my sense gratification: This is for Kṛṣṇa." So that is important. The police commissioner is thinking, "It is nuisance." Huh? Police commissioner is thinking it is nuisance. But we are not thinking it is nuisance. We are not so fool. The politicians, the police commissioner, they'll think of, "He is my enemy; he is my friend." That is their occupation. They'll never think of Kṛṣṇa. Yaśomatīnandana: Many people say... When we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa they say, "We chant in our minds. You don't have to chant loudly. You don't have to show off. We chant in our minds. We're always thinking about Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: Even Dr. Patel when we sometimes tell him "Please chant." *Prabhupāda: Dr. Patel is learning if he says. We haven't got to hear from Dr. Patel but from Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He says kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31], twenty*-four hours' chanting. Lokanātha: Is it possible to chant within one's mind? Prabhupāda: Chant means that your tongue must be engaged, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa..." That is chanting. Real chanting... Brahmānanda: Sevonmukhe... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jihvādau, yes. Chant means you must vibrate your tongue. That is chanting, Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is never said, "You chant within the mind." Where it is said? These are their manufacture to avoid. That's all. Yaśomatīnandana: Then, when we get into deep discussion, then they say, "Whatever I am working is for Kṛṣṇa. Everything is Kṛṣṇa." So ultimately they admit that actually it is not the person Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No. In bhakti... Yaśomatīnandana: But they are thinking themselves Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: That is not bhakti. Everything is going on for Kṛṣṇa. That is fact. But that is not bhakti. Bhakti is different thing. Bhakti is anukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśilanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Never says, "Whatever you do, it is everything is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is all right." Never said. anukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśilanam. What Kṛṣṇa accepts, that is bhakti. Kṛṣṇa accepts... Everyone is thinking... That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. So "Everything is Kṛṣṇa," that is all right, but when you think particularly of Kṛṣṇa, that is bhakti. Kṛṣṇa... Indian man (4): Now it may say everybody had. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (4): Because those people, even trees have gone... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Indian man (4): Kṛṣṇa's (indistinct) to serve. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll chant, such politician, "Jinna*-bhai! Jhinna-bhai!" They will chant like that, (laughter) rascals. But as soon as you ask them, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," "No, it can be done within the mind." (laughter) Just see their rascaldom. For some "Jhinna-bhai," for a dead leader, "Jhinna-bhai," as if he will come to life. (laughter) You see, this nonsense is going on. And as soon as you, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," "We can do it within mind." Therefore they're all rascals, narādhama. [break] ...never do the right thing. Always commit mistake and suffer. [break] Guru-mukha-padma-vākya **. It is never said that "You can chant whatever you heard from all nonsense." Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete kariya aikya, āra nā kariha mane āśā **. So repeatedly you are talking. [break] Lokanātha: Prabhupāda, why we have chosen this sixteen as a number to chant the rounds? Prabhupāda: Yes. Lokanātha: Why not less or more? Prabhupāda: We have fixed up sixteen? Lokanātha: We are chanting sixteen. Prabhupāda: No. We say "Minimum sixteen." Minimum. Lokanātha: Why that sixteen minimum? *Prabhupāda: If you can, sixteen thousand you can go. Sixteen rounds is the minimum. But if you are able to chant sixteen thousand rounds, that is welcome. We have got so much engagement. Still, we say, "We don't find engagement." This is our misfortune. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Haridāsa Ṭhākura was engaged in chanting and the prostitute came. She offered, "Let us enjoy." "Yes, let me finish. Let me finish this chanting." So much engagement, and still, we say, "No engagement." He refused to have sex with a beautiful young girl because he had engagement. "First of all let me finish my engagement," and we say we have no engagement. How unfortunate we are. [break] ...says, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. Twenty*-four-hours engagement He has given, and we see there is no engagement. *Lokanātha: Some devotees have fixed different number than sixteen. Some are chanting twenty minimum or twenty*-five. Prabhupāda: Yes. It should be increased. Lokanātha: Is it recommended for our... Prabhupāda: But don't decrease. Don't decrease; increase. Therefore one number is fixed. "At least this much I shall do." That is sixteen rounds. Lokanātha: But you are recommending sixteen as a minimum, and some devotees are choosing twenty as a minimum. Prabhupāda: So who forbids? Who says that "Don't do it"? Lokanātha: They can chant? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. But because you cannot do it, therefore we have fixed up this minimum. Saṅkhyāta asaṅkhyāta Saṅkhyāta means with vow, numerical strength. And asaṅkhyāta means there is no limit. [break] Yaśomatīnandana: ...are higher than any other activities or they are on the same platform? Any activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Is chanting the most exalted or...? *Prabhupāda: Everything is exalted. Therefore there are nine processes. śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam [SB 7.5.23], so many. They are all exalted. Yaśomatīnandana: So why is it recommended, chanting in this age particularly? Prabhupāda: Suppose if you have no temple, so you cannot perform arcana. So this is common, greatest common. It is not that because you have no temple, therefore your devotional service is stopped. There are other processes. You can do. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Lokanātha: Prabhupāda? If we chant more than sixteen rounds, so how can we know whether we are imitating Haridāsa Ṭhākura or following his footsteps? Prabhupāda: Imitation is also good. If you imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura, that is also your great fortune, even if you imitate. [break] imitating, it does not mean you are condemned. Even if you imitate, that is also good. [break] If you have some other business and if you say, "Now I am imitating Haridāsa Ṭhākura, I cannot do it," that is very bad. "I am busy in imitating Haridāsa Ṭhākura." That is not good. That is very bad. [break] Brahmānanda: If the devotees are asked for service they say, "Oh, I have to chant." Prabhupāda: "I am imitating." Yes. "I am imitating Haridāsa. This is my first business." That is very bad. (end) Morning Walk -- November 11, 1975, Bombay Prabhupāda: Gaṇapati, Viṣṇu, Lord Śiva, Sūrya and Devī. Dr. Patel: No, there are no Devī's here. *Prabhupāda: No, Devī's..., But their principle is this, that "God incarnation, impersonal. You imagine some form." Sādhakānāṁ nityārthāya brahmaṇo rūpa*-kalpanaḥ. Dr. Kalpana: (Hindi) They have got one Datta. Prabhupāda: Dattātreya. Dr. Kalpana: Dattātreya, yes. Then no doubt there is Hanumān because of the Rāma Mandir. Then there is Gaṇapati. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...goats before Kāla*-bhairava. Dr. Kalpana: It is, I mean, great description in Śiva Purāṇa. Prabhupāda: Every, every demigod... Dr. Patel: No, Devī Purāṇa. Prabhupāda: ...has got some description in different *Purāṇas*. *Dr. Patel: This is in Devī Purāṇa, Bhairava*-Bhāryā *Prabhupāda: There are sattvic, rājasic, tamasic Purāṇa. And Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is mahā-purāṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (1): (Hindi) [break] Dr. Patel: Air conditioning is not necessary. [break] Prabhupāda: That is life. This artificial life is no life. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has described this modern civilization of artificial life. So he says, jaḍā vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava. He declares all these artificial way of life, advancement of material civilization, means advancement of influence of māyā. Jaḍā vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava. Expansion of the influence of māyā. Then? What is the result? The result is anitya saṁsāre, moho janmeiya. Jaḍā vidyā sab, māyār vaibhava, tomāra bhajane badha. māyā means forgetfulness of God. This is māyā. māyā means the more you forget Kṛṣṇa, the more you are involved in māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. So māyā's business is to cover you more and more as you forget Kṛṣṇa. This is māyā's business. So therefore, expansion of māyā's influence means forgetting Kṛṣṇa. Tomāra bhajane badha. They're all hindrances only to make spiritual progress and to understand God. So what is the net result? The net result is anitya saṁsāre, moha janmeiyā. We are already attached to this material world, which is temporary. By this expansion of māyā's influence we become more attached. Attachment is already there, but we become more and more attached. In this way, jība ke karaye gadha. So he is already ass; *he becomes first*-class ass. That's all. (laughter) Is that all right? Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has analyzed. "He is already an ass," sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Khara means ass. "But he becomes a first-class ass." So you'll find all these rascals, materialists, they are all first-class asses, that's all. Every day you find they are discovering new theory, new theory: "Atom, electron, this tron, that tron." Not the jīvātmā. They remain the same ass, first-class ass, scientific ass. They are finding out so many atoms, electrons, this tron, that tron, not that one ten-thousandth part of God. That they cannot find. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīva-bhāgo sa vijñeyaḥ [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. They have not come to that point, that one ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair is the jīva, living entity. They have not come to that, neither they'll be able to come to that, because they remain ass, more and more ass, first-class ass, O.K. ass and then going on, the quality of ass. Dr. Patel: When the atom bomb was exploded, Sir Rutherford of England said that "This is nothing but the mental process. Real process somewhere else." He has spoke these words. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dr. Patel: Highest scientist. Prabhupāda: They are finding out a small particle, particle, particle, still going on. You were reading me the other day? So... Brahmānanda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Small particle than the... *Prabhupāda: But the real particle they have not found. Real particle is one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. That they have not found. *Brahmānanda: They find these particles in their machines called atom*-smashers. They take atoms and they smash them together... *Prabhupāda: But that measure means still they are measuring material. Apareyam. These are all aparā. They cannot come to that. Itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. There is another atom. That, these rascals, they do not know, neither they'll be able to come out. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, apareyam: "These are all material." Itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām: "There is another atom." (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. And where is that science? Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām: And that atom, jīva-bhutaḥ, that is living entity. That, the rascals, they do not know. They're still hovering upon material particles. Dr. Patel: No, but they get inkling of real higher source of all these things... Prabhupāda: No, higher... Dr. Patel: ...slowly and slowly. They have their own way. Prabhupāda: if you do not know what is that higher. Dr. Patel: They have tried to know, sir. *Prabhupāda: This kind of will not help them. No, no. That is the... That is there. They'll not know. Panthās tu koṭi-śatavatsara*-sampragamyo vāyor athāpi manaso muni-puṅgavānām, so 'pyasti yat-prapada-sīmny avicintya tattve. Still it will remain inconceivable. These rascals, they do not know that. You have to simply hear from Kṛṣṇa that there is another atom, apareyam. These are inferior. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. There is another atom. What is that? That is jīva-bhūtaḥ. You have to take this knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, not by searching out. How you can find out one ten-thousandth part of it? It is not possible. You have no machine, no source of knowledge. *Brahmānanda: These particles that they have just recently found, the life*-span is incredibly small, one-millionth of a trillionth of a second. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Brahmānanda: That's their life*-span. Prabhupāda: Yes. Life... Dr. Patel: How they measured it? Prabhupāda: Whatever they say, we have to believe. That's all. (laughter) Except Kṛṣṇa, we shall believe everything. When Kṛṣṇa says something: "No, no, these are all fictitious. There is no Kṛṣṇa, and these are all imagination." And as a rascal says, "Oh, this is scientific." This is going on. So we are not so fools that we shall believe these scientific rascals. We believe Kṛṣṇa. That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not going to believe the scientific rascals. Dr. Patel: All, all good, these do good, sir. I believe you should not be very harsh to the scientist. I am sorry... Prabhupāda: They are not scientists. They are rascals. I don't accept them as scientists. They, if they are putting forward theories every day, what kind of scientist? They are not scientist. Scientist means fixed up idea. It cannot be changed. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is scientist. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Harikeśa: Just consider how great they are. They've managed to isolate one little tiny electron and one little tiny positron, and then they send one one way, and they send one the other way, and then they meet and they smash. Prabhupāda: So what is the benefit? Harikeśa: But that's so difficult to do, you know. There are so many things get in the way. Prabhupāda: So you can... Difficult to do, you can count ever... It is very difficult to count this sand. Can you count? It is very difficult. But you can waste your time in counting. (laughter) You are rascal; you can go on: "I shall count how many." But it is not possible. So that is rascaldom. Which is not possible, that we'll get. Now it is... Everyone knows there are some particles. Now you go on counting. Don't eat. Don't sleep. Go on counting. And śāstra says, ""Even if you are able to count this, you'll not be able to know God, even if you are able." This is not possible to count, but even if you become so expert that you can count one day, still it will be acintya tattva. That is... There is a verse that even one day you become the rolled sky... The sky is so big. You can roll it just like you roll up your bedding. And even if you can, all the atoms constituted, still you'll not be possible to know, understand God. Dr. Patel: Because their main hypothesis is... That is near the mind. (?) *Prabhupāda: Yes. So evaṁ manasa*-gocaraḥ. You cannot have it. śruti-pramāṇam. You have to hear from the authority. Jaya. So if you want to waste your time in that way, you can do that. And next birth, you become a dog. That's all. This human life you waste in this way, dog's obstinacy; *Kṛṣṇa will say, "All right, come on. You become a dog." Human life... Even Cānakya Paṇḍita says, a??cyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi na labhyaḥ svarṇa*-koṭibhiḥ: "Even one part of your duration of life, one moment, you cannot get it back again in exchange of millions of golden coins." Svarṇa-kotibhiḥ. Sa cet nirarthakam: "If you waste that time unnecessarily, then you do not know what you are losing, even from material point of view." This is Vedic civilization, not to waste a single moment of life for useless attempt. That is Vedic civilization. Every moment should be utilized. Especially for the human being, it's so valuable. And they are finding out sporting, swimming and surfing-simply all programs of wasting time, especially in the Western countries. How much they have invented, I see only and laugh. The elderly men of your age, of course, maybe my age also, they are swimming and surfing. How they have invented means of... Brahmānanda: Fishing also. Prabhupāda: Fishing. Yes, all old men, they are sitting hours and hours for capturing one fish. (laughter) Just see their civilization. Dr. Patel: Because they are body conscious. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we see that how they have invented various ways of wasting time, which is so valuable. That is our view. Indian: To them time is nothing because time is eternity after all. *Prabhupāda: Time is eternity, but your formation is not eternity. Your formation is temporary. Time is eternity. (aside:) Thank you. No. Time is eternity, that's a fact, but your formation... Asann api klesada asa deha. It is temporary. That's all right. You know, I know, everyone. But it will simply give you pains, although it is asat. That you do not know. Time is... Body is temporary, but so long the body is there, you have to suffer. That body may be a ant's body or Brahma's body. So as soon as you get a material body, you have to suffer and go on examining urine and stool. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...and that is good wealth. And take some urine and find out, "Here is life." That's all. They are examining very scientifically. Why don't you...? The dead man's urine, if you examine and find out some injection and give it in life. Life is gone away, soul, and they are finding out life from the urine. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...but it is very reasonable. They are finding out out so many atoms, particles, but in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is clearly said that all these atoms are aparā, inferior. Find out the parā, the superior atom. That is life. (Hindi question and answer) But you cannot bring in life by so-called mantras. That is not possible. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) [break] ...can write to these particle men that "You are finding so many, but there is another particle which is one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. Find out that. That is life. That is superior." And quote Bhagavad-gītā, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. "Another atom." Give them information at least. [break]...Kṛṣṇa's message. Simply by reading one book, Bhagavad-gita, you become learned. [break] *Brahmānanda: Scientists will say that "We cannot find this jīva particle in our atom*-smasher machines." Prabhupāda: But you are blind. Therefore you have to hear. A blind man is going forward towards the sea, so one who has got eyes, he'll say, "Don't go there." Then, if you go, go to the sea, you'll die. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Because you are blind, therefore I am giving you the information. You take it. You don't go there. You'll not find. Brahmānanda: : But they do not think that they are blind. *Prabhupāda: That is the disease. That is the disease. A diseased man never thinks that he is diseased. He thinks, "I am quite all right." But a physician will say, "Oh, no, no, you are diseased." He says, "I am quite all right." Cancer. And then, after few days, finished. They do not know that "Why I am dying?" They think death is natural. But Bhagavad*-gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. They have no brain to inquire that here is information that even after the destruction, the jīva does not die. But he does not inquire. He says, "Death is natural. Let me die." This is blind. They agree to die. And Bhagavad-gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: [Bg. 2.20] "There is no death even after destruction..." They will not inquire about this. So blind. So blind. This should be inquiry, that "If it is a fact that even after destruction of the body I do not die, then what is that position?" That inquiry is also not there. They are so fool. That is human life, athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about the spirit soul. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] Bhelpuri? Very popular. Yes. Picnic. *Harikeśa: The scientists will say that their particles are smaller than one ten*-thousandth the tip of a hair. *Prabhupāda: First of all find out one ten*-thousandth. Then talk. Find out. *Harikeśa: They make measurements with, to the twenty*-second power, like a decimal point and twenty-two zeroes and then a one. We were just talking about quarks. Prabhupāda: Quarks? Harikeśa: Quark. Yes. The quark is the... There are things called hedons, and the quark is the smallest possible combination of elements that make a hedon, which makes up the protons and electrons. They haven't seen them yet. They just thought they might be there. Prabhupāda: : Again, "Might be. Maybe." [break] Harikeśa: We were wondering, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about all these people they are keeping alive artificially in the boxes. They have so many people in boxes in the hospitals they are keeping alive. So the big battle is raging whether or not they should pull out the plug. Prabhupāda: Keeping life? Harikeśa: They have these artificial machines that pump blood and breathe and digest food, and they pump everything into the body and they keep it alive. So all the scientists are wondering if they should pull out the plugs because it wastes so much money. Saurabha: There is some disease now that people enter in some coma, and with the machine they keep them alive for thirty years. There's some lady. She is already thirty and the machine since thirty years... Prabhupāda: So it's still limited, thirty years, not permanently. Saurabha: No, no. Prabhupāda: Then where is the solution? What is the solution? If after thirty years it is going to be collapsed, then what is the use? Devotee (1): But it's the moral problem that they're having, isn't it? Not the sickness, but the moral problem of either killing off one person or letting him continue to survive. Prabhupāda: Well, they have no moral. They are killing so many persons. That is killing. That is not... They are expert in killing. Saurabha: But they're afraid to take decision. They're very much confused. Harikeśa: They're afraid to take a decision whether to kill them or not by pulling out the plug. Prabhupāda: You take decision or not, he will be killed. That you cannot say. You are becoming very much moralist, whether to kill, but it will be killed. You cannot save him. That is not possible. Harikeśa: So, they should just keep the machines going? Prabhupāda: No, they should stop this nonsense and save money. That's all. Therefore they are called rascals. It will not be persisting. It is temporary. So why should you spend money? That is intelligence. Saurabha: They have examined those people, and they say they have the same symptoms as plant life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: Not more than that. *Prabhupāda: And in our list the plants are there. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. Sthāvara means plants. There are jalaja, aquatics, and sthāvara means plant. All living entities, different forms... Bhagavad-gītā says, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. As many forms are there of the living entities. But what are these forms? Forms means the spirit soul is one, and he is covered by these material elements. That is form. So either your form or my form, but the ingredients are the same, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4]. [break] The soul is the same, and the ingredients of the body are the same. That is explained in Iśo..., ekatvam anupaśyate. Just like from gold, take from the mine*-you make earring or this finger ring, the ingredients are the same. The forms may be different. [break] Apollo airship, thousands of technologists and scientists were engaged to make this Apollo, and it burst out. So they have no foreseeing power that it will burst out. At that time they began to pray to God. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think President Ford said, "Every American should pray to God." Prabhupāda: Why? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When that Apollo thing, it was burst, he said. He said we should all pray to God. *Prabhupāda: Why God? Why not scientist ? (laughter) Pray to scientist. Why the order was for God, not for the scientist? Churchill also, when the war condition was very, very severe*-they were going to be finished-then he asked everyone to go to church and pray. That "V"? "V"? Victory: "For victory, go and pray." Harikeśa: Well, they were thinking God was on their side. Prabhupāda: Yes, but they are thinking of God but in a different way, that "God is my order supplier. God is not to be worshiped, but He has to supply as I order." That's all. [break] Brahmānanda: ...this book written by one priest during the war. The name of the book was Somebody Up There Likes Me, referring to God. Prabhupāda: Still, he did not dare to utter the name of God. Brahmānanda: No, he said "somebody." Prabhupāda: "Somebody." Brahmānanda: "Somebody Up There Likes Me." Prabhupāda: As soon as he had written "God likes me," nobody would purchase the book. (laughter) Nobody would. He is clever-"Somebody." Harikeśa: One devotee asked me, "If the scientists don't know anything about the universe, then how is it they can predict exactly when there is going to be an eclipse of the sun or the moon for hundreds of years in advance?" Prabhupāda: That is very preliminary knowledge. That is not... Just like you can predict that after two months there will be winter. That does not mean that you are very advanced scientist. (laughter) Any child can say. The rascal predicted that there is some comet, and it never appeared. He did. So therefore they are rascals. What is already scheduled, everyone knows. He can say that. [break] ...story about Kali dāsa. Kali dāsa was such a fool. It is a long story. It will take time. So he was sitting on a branch of a tree and cutting. So some intelligent man came, was passing: "Oh, you rascal, you'll fall down." So he did not care. He would go on. And when he actually fell down, he, "Oh, you are so nice astrologer." What is astrology? It is a common sense. If I say, "At six o'clock in the evening there will be no sun," (laughter) is that astrology? Even it is astrology, this astrology is known to everyone. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Indian man (2): ...of anecdote where gopīs, you know? When gopīs' dress were taken by Kṛṣṇa, He wanted these gopīs to give away all their humility and humbleness, to show everything. "Then only, unless you surrender to Me, you cannot have any salvation." So when they took out all their dress and then went prayed before Him without any dress, then only they have become muktas. Like that Draupadi also. When Duhsasana... Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī interpretation. Indian man (2): No, that is what I... Prabhupāda: Why should you interpret? Gopīs prayed Kṛṣṇa and all the Katyāyanī devīs that "Let Kṛṣṇa become our husband." So Kṛṣṇa fulfilled their desire because a woman can become naked only before husband. That is the purport, no other interpretation. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, when that so many gopīs called, "So you wanted Me as your husband? All right, I become your husband." That's all. Because for a woman there is no shame before husband. So this was acceptance of husband. And so far renouncing everything, they had already done that. Therefore we take everything, śāstra, as it is, no interpretation. Then, simply by making oneself naked, he would have gone to Vṛndāvana. They interpret. These Māyāvādīs, they interpret in so many ways just to make the statement of Bhāgavata story. This is their real purpose. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) Without being liberated, can anyone expect to become wife of Kṛṣṇa? They were already liberated. These interpretation are there only to minimize the value of Kṛṣṇa and the value of gopīs. Māyāvāda bhāṣya sunile haya sarva nāśa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has warned, "If you hear the comments by the Māyāvādīs, then you are finished." Harikeśa: Why do people use spiritual things for material enjoyment when material enjoyment is available by itself? Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. It looks like material; *it is not material. Completely spiritual. Your body is moving on spiritual strength, but you have no eyes to see spiritual strength. You see the body. And when the spirit goes away, you cry, "My father has gone away." "Why my father has"...? "Your father is there. The body is there." So you have no spiritual vision: therefore you are thinking that gopīs' līlā with Kṛṣṇa is also material. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍha [Bg. 9.11]. This is mūḍha's business. They are thinking spiritual activities of Kṛṣṇa as material. That is avajānanti. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Paraṁ bhāvam, the spiritual activities, they do not know. Therefore it is forbidden for materialistic person to hear about gopīs' pastimes with Kṛṣṇa. It is forbidden, that's all, because the rascal will take it as material. [break] ... Rūpa Gosvāmī and Sanātana Gosvāmī and other Gosvāmīs, they left everything in the material world. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa*-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha... They gave up everything. Bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna, gopī-bhāvāmṛta... Then, in Vṛndāvana, they were thinking of the gopīs' līlā. So after giving up all these things, again they were thinking of material things? Gopī-bhāvāmṛtābdhi-lahari-kallola-magnau. So they were thinking of gopīs' pastimes with Kṛṣṇa. So after giving up everything material, again material? Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, ramyād kaścid upāsanā vraja-vadhubhir yā kalpitā. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu, after so much renunciation, so much vairāgya and strict following the sannyāsa rule, again He is recommending gopī? This is foolishness. Gopīs' līlā with Kṛṣṇa is completely spiritual. They do not understand. They think it is material. Therefore it is better not to go there. First of all become experienced in spiritual life; then try to understand gopīs' līlā. Devotee (3): [break] You were speaking about the blind person who is thinking that he can see. He is in illusion. How can we best convince him that he is not able to see? Prabhupāda: You have to convince him that "Your eyes are imperfect." Then you can tell, "Just close your eyes. Can you see the eyelid? It closes, but you cannot see. Why? You have got eyes. When there is some particle in the eye, so close and find out where is the particle. Why making this way, this way, this way? So what is the value of your eyes? This is the proof. You cannot see even your eyelids. So why do... Why you are so much proud of seeing?" Is it not? Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: This is conviction. He can say that "I cannot see on account of distant place, the planet," but you see the nearest. So you cannot see distant place things and you cannot see nearest. Then what is the value of your eyes? That means you can see only under certain condition. So condition is offered by somebody else. Therefore you are conditioned. Your seeing is conditioned, because it is not absolute. So how do you believe your eyes? Hm? Devotee (3): The vision of the eyes is imperfect. We have to see by intelligence, from the authority... Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not intelligence; that is fact. Intelligence you should have that "However I can perceive by the senses, the senses being imperfect, all our perceptions are imperfect." That is intelligence. Devotee (3): : Then one may ask, "Well, how do I recognize that this is the bona fide authority?" *Prabhupāda: : Who authorized? Another rascal, that's all. He's a rascal. Another rascal... Just like sva*-vid-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. A lion is being praised by the rabbit in the jungle. The rabbit is also animal; *lion is also. So what is the use of lion being praised by a rabbit? If a lion is praised by a rabbit, does it mean lion is more than animal? So similarly, these so*-called scientists, big men, they are being praised by small rascals. That does not mean on account of praising, he has become more than animal. He remains animal. Devotee (3): : We see Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but they see Him as a common man like themselves also. Prabhupāda: : Therefore they are mūḍhas. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ. Only the mūḍhas can deride. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritaḥ [Bg. 9.11]. It is stated already. Devotee (3): : Then how is it that some people do finally come to accept Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes. They come in the paramparā system, through guru. Tad*-vijñānārtham sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Therefore you have to go to guru to understand. You cannot understand personally. That is not possible. Therefore our system is to see through the guru and śāstra, not by these naked eyes. That is misleading. Devotee (3): Then the key would be to recognize and appreciate the importance of the guru. Prabhupāda: Parampara. Guru is also not authority by himself. He is authority by his guru, paramparā. If he is coming in the paramparā system, then he is guru. Otherwise he's not guru. Just like what we are doing? We are simply repeating the Kṛṣṇa's word. That's all. Therefore guru. And as soon as I make addition or alteration, I am goru Harikeśa: Goru means? *Prabhupāda: Goru means cow, animal. Go*-kharaḥ. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. The go-kharaḥ, these animals have been, I mean, exemplified because these two animals work for others very heavily. The bull also loads heavily, and the ass also loads very heavily for others, not for his own benefit. The bull is working day and night and being whipped... (end) Morning Walk -- November 12, 1975, Bombay Yaśomatīnandana: He will die by burning or something? Girirāja: He was laughing when they were burning the steel rods. So Gāṇdīva's mother said, "In the same way you will also die by burning." Dr. Patel: Who said? Girirāja: Gāṇdīva's mother. Dr. Patel: No, but who said like that for that... Really he got that temple, no? This temple is his forefather's. And they were doing the śraddhā pūjā here. Then I knew that he died. He was a great, sort of a roguish man. His grandfather or somebody had some power to knows things here and there, and people used to come and worship him and give him some money. But this man started fanning him exactly like this, sort of a (Hindi). Parsis are coming very often. Parsis are very simple community. Nara: He has committed suicide? Dr. Patel: Yes, he has committed suicide, rightfully. Nara: He was drinking and... Dr. Patel: What was he not doing? What was he not doing? He was in all this sort a big debauch, mentally, physically, all sensually. Prabhupāda: Why he committed suicide? Dr. Patel: He burned himself by pouring kerosene on his clothes. You Nara, you are here, no? Nara: Yes. *Dr. Patel: All his sisters are not married excepting one. They are forty, forty*-five years. Nara: (unclear) either man or woman [break] Prabhupāda: ...worldwide known... Dr. Patel: In the Christian religion. Nara: He was a loafer. He was not having two meals a day. [break] Brahmānanda: Yaśomatīnandana has a book, and he would like to read a few sentences from that book. Prabhupāda: Which is that book? Brahmānanda: Hm? Prabhupāda: What is that book? Brahmānanda: Well, we thought that we could play a game that Dr. Patel, he could identify who has written this book. Prabhupāda: What is that book? *Dr. Patel: Please don't allow him to read. (laughter) Let us talk about Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. *Brahmānanda: This is Bhagavad*-gītā. Dr. Patel: You see, anything which is read out of context is no reading. You must read it reference to context. If you read some nonsense somebody must have spoken or written he's not all what he has written or spoken. So if Yaśomatīnandana reads that and Prabhupādajī talks something about the spirituality, no this moment... Because time is short and heart is long, and our heart is beating like muffled drums, so let us fulfill ourself before we die. Prabhupāda: No, you have got your injection. (laughter) Dr. Patel: That is not for me. I give only... (laughs) His wife was brought yesterday to me, Yaśodānandana, and she told me that she was operated in the stomach for some growth. "What sort of growth was that? Was it malignant?" And she's suffering. Why don't you send her back or get the reports from the American hospital, what operation was performed on her, and we'll get out? Or she'll suffer all the time. That is the story of injection. Now let us talk. Until you realize God, then you are spirit. Up to then, you are always... Prabhupāda: "I am Indian." "I am American." Dr. Patel: More important: "I am a human being and others are lower animals." That is the greatest abhimana. Prabhupāda: No, that is also. Dr. Patel: Abhimana. Prabhupāda: That is also, what is called, false ego. Human being or animal, they are not different, because the body is made of the same ingredient. If you manufacture a dog like a dog, like a man, what is the difference? The ingredient is the same, earth. *Dr. Patel: Five bhūtas, pañca*-bhūta. *Prabhupāda: Pañca*-bhūta So where is the difference? A man who knows, he will see so many dolls made of earth. He knows they are all earth. Ekatvam anupaśyataḥ [Iso 7]. Dr. Patel: Some of it all, no? Prabhupāda: First of all let me, let me understand. This bodily transformation does not make any difference. Either it is made like a dog or it is made like a man, it is made from the earth. So one who knows the ingredient, he does not make any difference. Because he knows the dog or the man made of the same ingredient. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. First of all the body. The bodily conscious even... Dr. Patel: He has come. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: He has come. *Prabhupāda: The bodily consciousness is also material. That is also one. And the soul consciousness, spiritual, that is also one. That is ekatvam. So for a learned person there is no defect. Vidyā*-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini, paṇḍitaḥ samaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. This is the... So anyone who is under the bodily conception of life, either human beings or dogs, they are the same. But that upādhi amongst human being is stronger than the cats and dogs. The human being, being advanced in consciousness, they are making this nationalism. But it is nothing but dogism. Is it not? That's all. The so-called national people are sacrificing so many lives, so many politicians, Napoleon and these big, big leaders. But what is their business? Business is that doggish mentality: "I am this body." So it is very difficult to give up this doggish mentality that "I am this body." Very, very difficult. Dr. Patel: That is ahaṅkāra. *Prabhupāda: False ahaṅkāra. Because he is not body, it is false ahaṅkāra. So śāstra therefore says, bhagavad*-bhakti vihinasya jati japas tapaḥ kriya. A person who has not developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, for him this advancement of nationality, big work, industry, so on, so on, so on, jati japas tapaḥ kriya... Kriya, these act... Dr. Patel: Activities. *Prabhupāda: : What are these? Apranasya hi dehasya mandanam loka*-ranjanam. It has no value. But people are enamored by these things, "I belong to great nation. I am American. We have got so many industries. We have got so many cars." Attachment. So it is very difficult. Sarvo-padhi-vinirmuktam. One, after becoming completely freed from all these false designations, to become a devotee is very, very difficult. There is no education. *Dr. Patel: Sarva*-bhavena, from all sides and from all degrees. *Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. So we are dealing with very, very difficult task. It is not very easy, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Naturally we have got attraction for God. That is spiritual kingdom. Just like Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana means center is Kṛṣṇa. The elderly person like Nanda Mahārāja, Yaśoda, their friends, their..., they are also attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The gopīs are attracted to Kṛṣṇa, the cowherds boys, they are attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The cows, calves, animals and peacock*-everyone is attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The water is attracted to Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. And here in the material world nobody is attracted by Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Who prevents them, sir? māyā. Prabhupāda: : No. He wanted this; therefore māyā is there. Dr. Patel: : So that their position may go on. Prabhupāda: Police is not first. First you become a thief; then police is there, not that police comes and arrest you unnecessary. No. As soon as you become criminal, then police comes and arrest you. māyā comes next. If you give up your natural attraction for Kṛṣṇa, if you are attracted by this material enjoyment, then māyā is there. Again if you try to... Dr. Patel: But material, all material, is made up of māyā. Prabhupāda: No, no. Nothing is made by māyā. māyā is made by God. Dr. Patel: And material is, nothing but the transformation of māyā, is it not? Prabhupāda: No. No. māyā means something false. Nobody makes anything. Everything is made by... Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. Kṛṣṇa is the creator of everything. māyā is also created by Kṛṣṇa. So just like government creates police department. But police department is made for that person who violates the laws of God. The police department is creation of government. Similarly, māyā's business is to capture, arrest the criminal who has gone against God, capture him. Mūḍha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20]. Mam aprapyaiva. This is the arrangement. Nobody is independent. Everything. Therefore it is called sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. So māyā is also Brahman. māyā is also Brahman. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Why māyā is different from God? It is creation of God. Mama māyā, Kṛṣṇa says. Mama māyā. So how māyā can be... The difference is police cannot arrest the president. Now it has been proved in the law. The president, the prime minister, they cannot be interfered by the police or law. That is good judgment. If the head of the estate is also interfered by police, that does not look well. So this judgment is very nice. Therefore in English constitution the first word is "The king can do no wrong." You cannot accuse king of doing wrong. Whatever he does, it is all right. *Dr. Patel: : That is when there was Rāma*-rajya, sir. These modern fellows will talk all these things... *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No, no. Rāma*-rajya should be there as far as possible. Dr. Patel: : They are roguish fellows. Just like Nixon. What did he do? Was it in the place of king? Prabhupāda: No, no, he... Nixon, Nixon... Dr. Patel: : Most powerful nation of the world having a leader of the type of Nixon. Prabhupāda: So that is... Of course, in American constitution the president is also impeached. Is it the law? Brahmānanda: Yes. Dr. Patel: This is the first president who was impeached, during all the times. Prabhupāda: : But that is not very good law. That is not very good law. If the president also can be impeached, that is not very good law. Dr. Patel: Sir, if the government is made according to the rule and regulations established by our religions, then that president or the king is above law. Otherwise these fools must be within law. But the way they have been ruling the countries and ransacking the people's morals and material... Prabhupāda: : No, no. Anyone, anyone who is within law, he cannot be president. *Dr. Patel: : But these are within the law, president. These are the artificial constitutions made up, not the constitution as given by Vedas and Vedic religions. Then king or president is above law*-to my mind. I may be wrong. I am open to correction. Prabhupāda: Therefore we want rājarṣi. We don't want ordinary king. Rājarṣi. Dr. Patel: Then it is all right. Prabhupāda: Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Dr. Patel: : Ah, those rājarṣis. A king like Janaka. Prabhupāda: No, everyone should be rājarṣi. Otherwise he has no power to become king. He should be rejected. There are instances. Just like Vena Mahārāja. He was not rājarṣi, so he was killed by the brāhmaṇas: "Get down." There are instances. Then Pṛthu Mahārāja became king. Dr. Patel: Pṛthu was the incarnation of God. Prabhupāda: : Yes. So king is supposed to be representative of God if not incarnation. Dr. Patel: That's right. Then he is above law. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Because God is above law. But these people are representatives of the foolish, ignorant majority, and majority is made up of fools. Wise people are few. Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Jaya. Fools' paradise. Eh? Dr. Patel: That's right. We are living in fools' paradise. If the whole today universe was governed as it is ordained by *Vedas* and Vedic philosophy and laws, there would not have been any difficulty for us. But from time immemorial, even in the very place of the cradle of Vedic civilization, there were all these types of wars and (Hindi) and daityas and devas and all these things. *Prabhupāda: : Yes. I have got some... [break] Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only remedy to make everyone the first*-class human being. Yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcana sarvair guṇair tatra samasate suraḥ [SB 5.18.12]. Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you want to qualify the human society with all good qualities, then bhagavad-bhakti is the only means. Otherwise not. *Dr. Patel: That is correct sir. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Prabhupāda: So unfortunately nobody is interested. This is the only remedy, and nobody is interested. Rather, they will put blocks in the progress. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: If the modern politicians of the world follow the teaching of even Mahābhārata and śanti*-parva, there will be śanti all over. What is your opinion, sir? That is sufficient if they don't go ahead further. *Prabhupāda: Śānti means to become devotee. Otherwise there is no question of. Jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati. That is wanted. If one does not know Kṛṣṇa, where is śanti? Kuto śanty ayuktasya. Even Dhruva Mahārāja, he was... He became too much restless, being insulted by stepmother. He went to the forest, but there was no śanti. He was always restless. Nārada Muni came, advised him that "You are a child. Why you are so much agitated by so*-called insult, family talks?" And "No, I don't want your advice." He refused. Then Nārada Muni gave him initiation, that "This boy is very strong." But actually, when he realized God, then he became svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yace: [Cc. Madhya 22.42] "My dear Lord, now I am fully satisfied. I have no desire." This is śanti. Even mokṣa-vaṁcha is not śanti because there is demand: "I want mokṣa." The karmīs, they want sense gratification; the jñānīs, they want liberation; *the yogis, they want mystic power, aṣṭa*-siddhi. Only the devotee, he doesn't want. He wants only to serve Kṛṣṇa. (plane flying over) It is going so low. Dr. Patel: It is a jumbo. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Shall I go? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jaya. [break] *Devotee (1): Can you explain more about the Stita*-dhi Muni, the undisturbed sage? In the purport you explain how he is neither attached nor detached. What is that, that he is neither one or the other? Prabhupāda: There are two things in this material world, attachment and detachment. Somebody is attached. The karmīs, everyone, is working. Why so hard? There is attachment. The jñānīs, they are renouncing: brahma satya jagan mithya. So a devotee is always satisfied in any condition. He has no attachment or detachment. Devotee (1): He is simply attached to serving Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: That is attachment, of course, but not for any purpose. He's simply surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, and whatever Kṛṣṇa will do, that's all right. Personally he has no attachment. Suppose Kṛṣṇa wants to do him something which he doesn't like to do; *still he has to do. Just as Arjuna... He did not like to fight, but still, because he understood, "Kṛṣṇa wants," then he fought. This is neither attachment nor detachment. Actually it is... It was not liked by him. But he did it because Kṛṣṇa wanted. Therefore, personally he has no attachment or detachment. If Kṛṣṇa is attached to something, then he becomes attached. If Kṛṣṇa is detached to something, he becomes detached. That is bhakta's principle. Personally he is neutral. [break] ...the difference between karmi and bhakta. Karmī is attached and detached for his own purpose, and bhakta is attached and detached for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. Personally he has no attachment or detachment. Kṛṣṇa says that, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. There are two kinds of principles: attachment and detachment. So mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. So this material attachment and detachment one should give up. He should surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This is bhakta's principle. So there is no cloud in the sky, eh? Completely clear. [break] ...the sea-going is not dangerous. It is very calm and quiet? Brahmānanda: Sea? Prabhupāda: Sea. Yes. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: I started during monsoon, (laughs) in September. Brahmānanda: It's monsoon and then... Prabhupāda: Not September, August. Brahmānanda: August. And in the Atlantic that's the hurricane season. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. Brahmānanda: On the Atlantic Ocean, that's the hurricane season. It's the worst season. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So when I landed in New York-(aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa*-the captain said that "It is astonishing there was no hurricane in that line." I did not know. At last, he said. Captain said that he was very much anxious "What will happen in Atlantic? This swami is already seasick." Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (2): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Such kind of religious system is rejected. Dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavaḥ. Kaitava means cheating. To cheat God or to be cheated by God, this kind of religion is rejected. But people are very much fond of that kind of religion by which the God is cheated and he is cheated. He will commit all kinds of sins and he will be excused. That means God is cheated. And if he thinks that "I will go on committing sinful; *God will excuse me," that is also cheating. He is cheating himself, as if God is so fool that he will go on committing sin and God will excuse. These are cheating. This is not religion. God is personally speaking, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām [Bg. 7.28], and he is thinking that "I will go on committing sinful activities and God will excuse." Why God will excuse? This is foolishness. He can excuse once, twice, thrice, but as a matter of routine, he will commit sinful activities and God will excuse*-this is all nonsense. Parīkṣit Mahārāja has condemned this process. He has compared the kuñjara saucavat. Kuñjara means elephant. The elephant takes bath in the river or in the lake very minutely, becomes very clean. And as soon as he will come on the shore, he takes some dust and... You will find this. He's such a big animal, but he has no sense that "Now I have washed all dirty things. Again I am taking dirt?" So this kind of knowledge, that "Cleanse yourself by doing prāyaścitta, and again unclean." If you have cleansed yourself, then keep yourself clean. Why you are uncleaning again? This is foolishness. [break] "What is this, pious activities and sinful activities? These are all old, primitive ideas. Now we are advanced." (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya [break] ...surfing introduced as (Hindi) ...Surfing sport... (Hindi) [break] ...that toothpaste within the box? Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is old. The new one, where it is? Now finished? Harikeśa: No, they are also in the shaving kit. Prabhupāda: Oh. So the new one it is all dried up with glycerin. If they are finished, then prepare the same formula. [break] Indian man (3): ...not taking bath in the morning. I was not coming to the temple because my bronchitis. And once you told me, "You take without bath. You go to the temple." I started taking bath. I was now coming to the sea because that bronchitis was troubling me. But now... (Hindi) My wife told me, "Don't go. You are a sick man. You are not taking my..." I said, "No, it will be Kṛṣṇa's mercy only." I am ninety percent happy. Once I give some... Still I think I am, by your grace, I am ninety percent cured now. Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa's grace. Indian man (3): Still in a congregation when I sit I get some phlegm. That is why. Prabhupāda: Do you feel any inconvenience while walking? Indian man (3): No. Prabhupāda: No, no, for bronchitis this open air is very good. Indian man (3): Good. Ah. That is good. During night, I can't get sleep, so if I go in the evening to the sea, so morning I think... Four days, I am better. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very good. Even if you cannot walk, you can sit down and breathe the open air. [break] Progress is going on? Saurabha: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: Temple foundation is fixed up? Saurabha: The laying concrete, one third has been done and today we start setting up the columns, steel work. (end) Morning Walk -- November 13, 1975, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...not whimsically. That will not... That is a bad example. Dr. Patel: Oh, yes. Otherwise it will become a hotel. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: Otherwise it will become a hotel. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hotel we are preparing also, transcendental hotel. But they must pay for it. Dr. Patel: That's right. I think it is perfectly right. Prabhupāda: Otherwise what will be the impression of the sādhus, that one treatment to one and one treatment to another? Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...require, everything is there by God's arrangement. [break] ...heavy load, there is elephant, truck. Elephant is truck, horse is carriage. Everything is there by nature's... And for small load, the bulls, the asses. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Where he is? He has gone back? In the kitchen they are preparing tea? They are preparing tea in the kitchen? Brahmānanda: Tea. Was he making tea in his kitchen? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I didn't know that. [break] *Prabhupāda: So Nanda Kumara, you see me. I shall talk with you at half past eleven. [break] ...from this side. [break] ...flies. So do the modern botanists, er, biologists know all these things? In our śāstra it is, jalaja nava*-lakṣani sthavara lakṣa-viṁśati, kṛmayo rudra-śaṅkhyakaḥ. [break] Yaśomatīnandana: They cannot understand one species of life. How can they understand 8,400,000? Prabhupāda: And śāstra has described so many things. It has no value. And whatever nonsense they'll talk, that is right. Harikeśa: That's because the śāstra is not very practical. Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: It's not very practical. Prabhupāda: Why not practical? Harikeśa: Because you can't do anything with it. You just read it and... Prabhupāda: He can press your throat and kill you immediately. (laughter) He can do this. Do you admit or not? Harikeśa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Then? That is the practical thing for the demons. Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. When Hiraṇyakaśipu met with Nṛsiṁhadeva, "Yes, sir, yes. You are here." Harikeśa: But that's all mythology. That kind of thing never really happens. Prabhupāda: When it happens, you will see. Wait for few years. Do you think death will not happen to you? You are so fool to think like that? Harikeśa: It's still going to happen to me even if I read these books. *Prabhupāda: The books are there, what is happening actually, that's all. Books... Therefore it is practical because what is written in the śāstra, that is happening. Therefore it is practical. [break] Throughout this age, the symptoms of Kali*-yuga, they are happening practically. Yaśomatīnandana: [break] ...all the Māyāvādīs, transcendentalists, they also don't believe in śāstras. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Yaśomatīnandana: This one man, he is a great devotee of one so*-called swāmī, and he was quoting Bhagavad-gītā inside and out. And then... Prabhupāda: He doesn't believe in. *Yaśomatīnandana: No. He doesn't believe in Kṛṣṇa. He comes to the words that "You surrender everything to Kṛṣṇa." Then he says, "Well, actually this Bhagavad*-gītā is written by some man, unknown man." So I said, "What is the value of it then? Why are you quoting Bhagavad-gītā? Why are you learning it?" "It is knowledge, very nice knowledge." "So any knowledge imparted by any mundane man, what value does it have?" Prabhupāda: Why don't you accept it? What is the use of quoting? *Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. That they will not do because they know they can make money by quoting Bhagavad*-gītā. People will not accept anybody if they openly say that they don't believe in Bhagavad-gītā. Prabhupāda: That was going on. It is the first time. We are pressing: "You must take it seriously." It is the first time. Otherwise this was going on, at least for the last two hundred years. Yaśomatīnandana: And then when we say that a devotee goes to Vaikuṇṭha, this and that, "Oh, Vaikuṇṭha and all those things are just myth, just baloney." Prabhupāda: You are authority, you rascal. You are authority. Everything is myth, you are simply truth. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Harikeśa: Reality and... Prabhupāda: Where everything is myth, then why you are truth? You are also myth. Everything is myth, so you are also myth. What is the use of talking nonsense? Yaśomatīnandana: They believe in whatever is existing now. Whatever is existing now, or whatever they... *Prabhupāda: And what is not existing which is mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gita. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. Still people say, "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya," "I am this," "I am that." It is existing. Yaśomatīnandana: They would even believe the mundane historians more than the śāstras. The historians have very funny stories. The Aryans came from the northeast Asia or something. Indian man (1): Central Asia. Yaśomatīnandana: Central Asia and inhabited in India. Then the Indian civilization sprang. Everybody thinks that India was not originally inhabited. It was all inhabited by the Dravidians, and then the Dravidians were pushed into the South and then Aryans dominated them. Whatever they learn in the schools. And because they have this theory, therefore they have to date all the śāstras, after, either after Christ or just a few centuries before Christ. [break] ...bhārata, they say, it must have been a small family feud and some poet's imagination made it a big war. Prabhupāda: "May be. May not be." (laughter) We say, "may not be." Brahmānanda: They say the *Mahābhārata* was written 1400 B.C., and that date correlates with dates of the Egyptian and Greek Empire. Prabhupāda: No, no, so many dates have been quoted there. Which is correct? That is our question. So many dates they have discussed. And which one is correct? Either everyone is correct or everyone is incorrect. This is the... There cannot be many dates; that is not possible. Date must be one. So which one is correct? Who will answer this? Brahmānanda: Everyone has a different opinion. Prabhupāda: That's it. Devotee (2): Recently they had a big questioning in the... (too faint) ...newspapers what the outcome would be. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): And your Godbrother Swāmī Bon? Prabhupāda: Yes, I know that. He is also one of them. Devotee (2): He established... (too faint) Prabhupāda: Others, they do not accept. So... Yaśomatīnandana: Funny thing is that some of the historians, they say, "There was no war like *Mahābhārata*. It's all fictitious. There's nothing like Kurukṣetra." Some historians say that there is Kurukṣetra and there is evidences of war of *Mahābhārata*. But none of them completely agree with the scriptures. They all have their own fantastic theories, even those who say that... Prabhupāda: So why shall I accept them? Yaśomatīnandana: How can we prove the... Prabhupāda: They cannot prove. Our proof is already there. They cannot prove. Why don't you take that point, that these rascals, they are contradictory to one another, so they cannot prove. Our proof is already there. Yaśomatīnandana: That is what we should aim at. We should aim at "You cannot prove your..." Prabhupāda: You cannot prove. You are contradictory. So why shall I accept you or he? We accept our own proof. That's all. First of all you agree amongst yourselves; then question us. You cannot agree. Why shall I believe you? One says that "He is wrong" and the other says "He is wrong." Now we say "You are both wrong. We reject you." Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yaśomatīnandana: But how can we impress the masses that we are right, the innocent people? *Prabhupāda: They are not historians, rascals. They will believe Mahābhārata. They are not so*-called historians, scientists. They still believe in the Vedic standard. Yaśomatīnandana: People in general. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They're actually doing that. They may believe or not believe; our belief is going on all over the world. Is it not? Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. Phalena pariciyate. Hare Kṛṣṇa. We don't make any compromise. What we believe, we are preaching that. People are accepting. So you believe or not believe; it doesn't matter for us. Yaśomatīnandana: [break] ...just institutions, they also say "Indian mythology." Prabhupāda: They have been taught like that. Yaśomatīnandana: And they put out books on *Mahābhārata* or Rāmacandra, "Indian mythology." Prabhupāda: But who cares for them? *Yaśomatīnandana: Ninety*-nine per cent of the people are completely misled. *Prabhupāda: No, no, not ninety*-nine per cent. Maybe nine percent. [break] Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact, science is not revealing itself now. Science is also realizing that it is not the way to realize God. Science is, when you were a student at college was much different than what it is today, sir, to tell the truth. The scientists have realized that they are nothing before, before all that they observe and the director of all that action, themselves and everything. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Passerby: Jaya Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara is real scientist. He is admitting. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. What is that? Yad-uttama-śloka-guṇanuvarṇanam [SB 1.5.22]. *Puṁsa, "of the human society," sviṣṭasya, "education..." Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya, sviṣṭasya, ca buddhi*-dattayoḥ. Whatever big, big activities are there-education, charity, tapasya... Why these things are required? What is the meaning of becoming advanced in such things? Avicyuto 'rthaḥ: "Without any doubt, the artha, the conclusion, is that they should describe the wonderful activities of the Supreme Person." Then it is perfect education. And these rascals, they are saying, "Now we don't require God." Dr. Patel: No, sir, but these great scientists like Huxley were all... Prabhupāda: No.... Dr. Patel: They have realized the working of God in every atom, to tell the truth. It was so some fifty years back that the scientists did not believe in the existence and working of God, but they have much changed now. Prabhupāda: That means they were foolish; now they are coming to be wise. Dr. Patel: But they have died out, the previous generation. Now the new generation. Prabhupāda: No, still there are, so many rascals. Dr. Patel: There cannot be uniformity of... Prabhupāda: So many rascals. One scientist came to talk with me in California. And he: "God? What is God? We have now solved everything." And you are rascal, demon. Dr. Patel: He should be asked to "Make a single living cell yourself. We'll give you all the ingredients, all the chemicals, and make us a living cell. If you can make it?" That should be the answer to that. Prabhupāda: They are so foolish. I very strongly talk with them. Still, stubborn, doggish. That scientist, I told him in his..., that "You are a demon." I told him, "You are a demon." So he tolerated. (laughs) Dr. Patel: They are serving the Mammon and not God. Prabhupāda: So, so many psychologists, psychiatrists, scientists, they come there in Los Angeles. Dr. Patel: I mean, the psychologists are the real science which can lead a man to the higher understanding of life, psychologists. The abstract sciences of biology and psychics, chemistry, are little lower sciences. The psychology is much higher. Prabhupāda: No science is perfect. Asato dhavato bahiḥ. Dr. Patel: In imperfection also there can be gradations. Prabhupāda: Gradations, that I give the example: stool, this side and that side, the dry side and the moist side. Somebody says, "Oh, this side is very good. It is dry stool." (laughter) Dr. Patel: You have to examine in a different way. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is very good example. Stool is stool, but they are thinking, "This side is very good because it is dried up. Dr. Patel: We see a thing from any angle, sir. Prabhupāda: Now, this is also one of the angle. Dr. Patel: Scientists have got different angle. Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no different angle. It is foolishness. Stool is stool, this side or... If you say, "This angle is very..." The same thing. Dr. Patel: The human stool is a stool for the human being. Does it not become a food for a stray dog? Prabhupāda: That is human stool. Dr. Patel: That you see. Does it not become the food for a stray dog, sir? That you see. Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore we say... Dr. Patel: When I was a small boy I was very much wondering how this filth that is cast away from human body can nourish the dog's body. But that is the bountifulness of God, sir. Yaśomatīnandana: Just like that... Dr. Patel: Now don't talk. (laughter) I was a professor in the college, so I am very sorry. This particular habit is lurking me as yet. Yaśomatīnandana: māyā is killing the scientists. Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) But that is what it is, sir. Really, it set me thinking when I was a small baby boy, how this could maintain the body of a dog if there was no something in it. It is a very important thing to understand. Think about it. Prabhupāda: ...good substance, very good substance. Stool is full of hypophosphates. Dr. Patel: Whatever it is, but there it is... Prabhupāda: That was analyzed by a big doctor. You know that Dr. Ghosh who came? Dr. Ghosh from Allahabad? So one day I went to his house, and I saw in a plate something yellow is kept. And "What is this, doctor?" "Oh, that is stool to be examined." Dr. Patel: The stool, so long it is in your body, it is you, a part of you, because we are all, majority of us are body conscious. There are very few people like you, who are so conscious. Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda philosophy. *Dr. Patel: We are in the process of making soul*-consciousness. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is Māyāvāda philosophy. Dr. Patel: But still every moment we are body conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. But that is Māyāvāda philosophy, "Everything one. Everything one." Dr. Patel: Māyāvāda or no vāda, this is a fact, that we are body conscious. We look to the facts, sir, we scientists. Brahmānanda: Rāmakrishna ate stool because he said, "Stool and prasādam are one." Prabhupāda: Hm? He ate stool? Brahmānanda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Where does he say so? Brahmānanda: His disciple... One of his disciples told us. Dr. Patel: Disciple has said, but... Brahmānanda: As an experiment to show that it was all one, he said that he ate stool. Prabhupāda: No, of course, I do not know about stool, but he wanted to eat beef. Dr. Patel: Meat. Prabhupāda: Beef. Dr. Patel: Because he tried to worship God in the form of Muslims. Prabhupāda: Yes. So he wanted permission from the proprietor of the temple. "Now I am going to experiment Mohammedan religion, so I want to eat beef." So he said frankly that "Now you have to go away, sir. I cannot allow this." Then he stopped. Dr. Patel: But he did not eat beef. He did not eat beef. He saw it and that's all. Prabhupāda: No, when the permission was not given by the proprietor he had no other way to stop. Dr. Patel: Rasamaṇi. Prabhupāda: Rasamaṇi. Rasamaṇi's husband. Dr. Patel: She was a widow. *Prabhupāda: Oh, husband, no. Yes. His son*-in-law. *Dr. Patel: The son*-in-law, Mathurā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ah, yes. Dr. Patel: So he experimented as a Christian, as a Muslim, and all, and he said he came to the same truth. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. He experimented means he was a fool. And a fool makes experiment, one who is fool. One who knows, why he should make experiment? Dr. Patel: Scientists do make experiments. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are fools. (laughter) Dr. Patel: You say so. Prabhupāda: Yes. We don't make any experiment. We don't make any. We say, "Kṛṣṇa is God." That's all. No experiment. Dr. Patel: If, sir, Edison had not made experiment... Prabhupāda: Edison, Fedison, all, these are rascals. All these... Edison... Dr. Patel: You would not have electricity today in the streets. Prabhupāda: We don't make any experiments. Dr. Patel: This is a matter of worshiping. He experimented with the method of worshiping. Prabhupāda: No, experiment means one who is making experiment, he is a fool. Dr. Patel: I mean the experiment of making..., method of worshiping, sir. You worship this way, other... *Prabhupāda: There is no method. Only method*-bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. That is method. All rascals. All rascals. Yes, all rascals. Dr. Patel: No, sir. The Christians, they go to the temple to worship God in the same way. Prabhupāda: No, I don't say Christian and Hindus, Muslims. Anyone who is not a bhakta, he is a rascal. That's all. That is our conclusion. Therefore we say all rascals. Muḍḥa. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. Why should we experiment other than that? Dr. Patel: But that is the way of bhakti, sir. My contention is this, with all my... Prabhupāda: You cannot make. Dr. Patel: I submit myself meekly, that... Prabhupāda: Truth is truth. There is no experiment. Truth is truth. You cannot make experiment. "All right, let us see. The sun may rise this side." Can you do that? Dr. Patel: I think I am not explicit to you, sir. What I mean to say is way of worshiping... Prabhupāda: There is no other way of worshiping except bhakti. Dr. Patel: No, but that is also a bhakti, sir. Prabhupāda: Yes, but... Only way. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. God is one, and to understand God is one. That is it. Now... Dr. Patel: He has saints in the same God by all the ways. If I... *Prabhupāda: There is no other way. That is foolishness. That is explained. Ye 'py anya*-devatā bhaktā yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ, mām eva te 'pi bhajanty avidhi-pūrvakam. That is avidhi. That is not vidhi. *Dr. Patel: They are bhajanti. Still they are bhajanti, sir. They are not non*-bhajanti like so-called mūḍha scientists and like Hoffer.(?) *Prabhupāda: Bhajanti... It is, think, yajanti, not bhajanti. Yajanty avidhi*-pūrvakam. That is not the way. *Dr. Patel: Bhajanty avidhi*-pūrvakam? Bhajanty aviddhi-purvakam. Prabhupāda: Yajanti. Dr. Patel: Bhajanti, sir. Prabhupāda: Yajanti. *Dr. Patel: I think I am not wrong. Bhajanty avidhi*-pūrvakam. They are... *Prabhupāda: No, ye 'py anya*-devatāḥ... That is another. śraddhayān... Te'pi mām eva... Dr. Patel: I have still, I mean... Prabhupāda: I think yajanti. Dr. Patel: Bhajanti. Parasmaipada, not atmānepada. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is avidhi*-pūrvakam. *Dr. Patel: Avidhi*-pūrvakam. Prabhupāda: That is not vidhi. Dr. Patel: "Those who worship devas, they go to devas, and those who worship Me, they come to Me." Prabhupāda: Hm? *Dr. Patel: Devāṇī yanti deva*-yaja bhūtāni yanti bhūtejya. Prabhupāda: But these Rāmakrishna men say... Dr. Patel: Mām eva... Prabhupāda: Rāmakrishna men say, "You worship any demigod, you go to God." Kṛṣṇa does not say. They say, "There are as many ways." And Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam. They're all against śāstra. All against śāstra. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Dr. Patel: Did you know this bhūteṣu tiṣṭhantaṁ parameśvaram? Na hināsty ātmāna ātmānam tathāpy ātmā... How shall you explain that, sir? Samaṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu tiṣṭhantaṁ parameśvaram. *Prabhupāda: Sarvaṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 13.28], that I have explained so many times. If you see materially either dog or a big brāhmaṇa, the body is the same material. Body, when you dissect the body you find the same blood, same muscle, same bone. That's all. That is material. And spiritually they are atmān. Therefore sama*-darśinaḥ. From that point of view, from basic point of view. Not that he is seeing a brāhmaṇa and dog equal. No. Not that. He is seeing the outward and inward. Inward is spirit. That is one. And outward, matter, that is one. *Dr. Patel: Another is śuni caiva śva*-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the same thing, because he does not see the form; he sees the ingredients. Just like there are so many earthen pots, dolls. So any sane man knows that these are all made of earth. That's all. That vision is wanted, but these rascals, they are thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya," "I am fat," "I am this," "I am that." Therefore they are imperfect. Dr. Patel: Oh, we are prepared to think we are Americans, but they don't take us, unfortunately. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: You see? I may little digressing from this point. Before the India became freed we had an extremely high opinion about American race, American people. Prabhupāda: Still I have got. Dr. Patel: Because... No, not people like us. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is correct. Still I have got. Dr. Patel: I have got also. Because then it was American president who supported the freedom movement of India. But unfortunately Dulles spoiled the speech. Prabhupāda: No, I am not speaking from that point of view. I see that the Americans, they have helped me in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Patel: You, but the whole India, they helped. It is only you. Prabhupāda: Therefore I feel obliged to them. Nobody helped me. These boys helped me. Dr. Patel: It was your President Roosevelt, by whose action, I mean, Mr. Churchill began to lose his grip on India. Prabhupāda: And this American government even, they never put any hindrance in my movement. They have, rather, appreciated. And many American old gentlemen came to congratulate me. Dr. Patel: Because you are helping them, salvaging the boys from the... Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, but they have helped me. Dr. Patel: They are not smoking that. Indian man (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in 1962 in Geneva(?) only they helped, America. Dr. Patel: Because that is a democracy. India... Prabhupāda: And another thing, from material point of view... I am touring all over the world so many times. Materially nobody is as opulent as America, nobody. (sic:) Not even America. Dr. Patel: Because the best brains of the world are drained there. That is the real cause. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be... Dr. Patel: Best brains of the world, they are attracted to America. Prabhupāda: Money, everyone is trying to get money in Bombay. But why there are (unclear)? It is... Unless one is destined to get money, he cannot get. It is not that, so cheap thing, that I want money; *money will come. It is janmaiśvarya-śruta*-śrī [SB 1.8.26]. Unless one is pious he cannot get money, he cannot get education. *Dr. Patel: Yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo yatra pārtho dhanur*-dharaḥ. Prabhupāda: Yes. So in that sense of materially, janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī, these four thing... Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: So... [break] ...taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the greatest fortune. Thousands of young men joining, but here in India nobody is coming. Dr. Patel: Because they have already joined. *Prabhupāda: All unfortunate, now they are. They have been so much trained badly. They say frankly, "Oh, this Hare Kṛṣṇa we have seen." In America when they chant... The Americans are chanting on the street, and the Indian students, "Oh, this we have done much. We have nothing to..." Here also they are thinking like that: "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? Eh? A beggars' movement." śāstra says, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21], and these rascals are thinking, "Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa we have seen." You see? They have become so greatly intelligent, these rascals. They do not believe in śāstra, in sādhu, in God. All these "incarnations" and big, big men, they say, "Oh, what is the use of śāstra?" Even this Ānandamāyā says that "In higher advancement there is no need of śāstra." He is above śāstra. He, she says like that. And Kṛṣṇa said, yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na sa siddhim avāpnoti [Bg. 16.23], immediately condemned: "If you don't believe in śāstra, you are rascal." Kṛṣṇa said. And they say, "Oh, there is no need of..." And he's an incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. This Bal-yogi rascal is doing that: "There is no need of śāstra." This is going on. Now he's finished, of course. His activity is finished. [break]...strength of śāstra we are challenging that "You have never gone to the moon planet." Who can do so? The whole world is accepting they have gone to moon planet, and we are challenging, "You have never gone to moon." Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. (end) Morning Walk -- November 14, 1975, Bombay Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Calcutta had called me up this morning. They are expecting about two lakhs' people in Māyāpur today and tomorrow. There's a big festival, and Jayapataka Mahārāja spoke to me also. He's going to come here next Wednesday. Prabhupāda: Two lakhs' people? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: During the next three, four day festival... Prabhupāda: What is that festival? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's... It happens every year at this time. Prabhupāda: What is this time? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] Bengali Gītār Gān is ready and Jayapataka Swāmī is taking delivery of it in the morning. Prabhupāda: [break] Copies. [break] They could not conclude when the battle of Kurukṣetra was fought. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are speculating, though. There is one school which says it wasn't fought in Kurukṣetra. Prabhupāda: As soon as there will be one school and other school, that means all of them are rascals. Just like the sun rises from this side. There cannot be two schools. If somebody says, "No, no. Sun rises from this side," if that is school, he's a fool. Sun rises from the eastern side. That's all. That is knowledge. If somebody says, "No, sometimes in the western side, sometimes in the northern side," is that any value? So as soon as there will be many schools, that means the conclusion is not like that. *Yaśomatīnandana: Someone was telling me, and I was telling that if somebody is not following the particular characteristic of a saintly person mentioned in the śastra, they cannot be accepted as a sādhu. So he was trying to prove that some sādhus, so*-called, who eat meat, and who are drinking, they were actually great paramahaṁsas. And then I... He said that because in the previous ages there is mention of... In the śāstras there is mention that there were many ṛṣis and munis who were eating meat. Prabhupāda: He knows them. He is such a rascal that he knows only and nobody knows. That is the verdict of this Rāmakrishna Mission. Yaśomatīnandana: They say that they would... These ṛṣis would kill one elephant or something like that, and they would live on him for whole year. Prabhupāda: Where is that information? Where he got this information? You did not challenge? Yaśomatīnandana: Well, I said that that muni must be just like the ṛṣis and munis you are talking about now. Prabhupāda: We don't find any such thing. In this way they have ruined Indian culture by misquoting, by misleading. Yaśomatīnandana: And he admitted that Vivekānanda smoked gañja and he was eating meat. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Yaśomatīnandana: But for such a soul, he said, there is no conditioning like that. Then, when you quote any verse from Bhagavad*-gītā contrary to such statement, immediately he would say, "Well, Bhagavad-gītā is not the only scripture." Prabhupāda: [break] ...very nicely, without any fail. Dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsām [SB 1.2.8]. But if he does not become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then where is the profit? It is simply waste of time and energy. śrama eva hi kevalam. Anything, whatever it may be, it doesn't matter. Ye kṛṣṇa tattva vetta... If he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he is guru. Ye kṛṣṇa tattva vetta sei guru haya. (Hindi) Yaśomatīnandana: [break] ...people, they are nice pious people, and they have accepted some of these gymnastic people as their guru. So they say, "Oh, our guruji is here. We have to go see our guruji," this, that. So how should we speak to them or how should we preach to them? Prabhupāda: That you cannot do immediately unless he understands your philosophy. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. Unless they understand that this philosophy is better than that, how he can give it up? Yaśomatīnandana: Sometimes they even say that "You have your guru and I have my guru. It's all the same thing." Prabhupāda: Yes, and a thief has also a guru. Then that guru is also the same thing. (Hindi) Here guru means tasmād gurum prapadyeta jijñāsur śreya uttaman [SB 11.3.21]. (Hindi) Nāpnuvanti mahātmānam saṁsiddhiṁ paramaṁ gataḥ. Yaśomatīnandana: Isn't there some conditioning between the guru and śiśya, that "The guru should be like this and a śiśya should be like this"? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: Not that anybody can say, "I am śiśya," and not anybody can say, "I am guru." *Prabhupāda: Saṁsara-dāvā. You are singing daily. Saṁsara-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam **. One who can deliver from this entanglement of material, miserable condition of life, he is guru. That is the first definition of guru. Saṁsara-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam, prāptasya kalyāṇa*-one who has obtained this qualification-vande guroḥ śrī caraṇāra..., he is guru **. Yaśomatīnandana: 'Cause nowadays... Prabhupāda: Nowadays... Nowadays let them talk all nonsense. But this is the definition of guru. "Nowadays the sun is rising on the western side." If somebody says like that, who is going to accept it? "Nowadays." There is no question of "nowadays" and "formerly." The truth is truth always. Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is Absolute Truth. Jaya. Yaśomatīnandana: So many yajñas and siddhis and everything going on, everywhere you see. It's so hard... Prabhupāda: Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. Those who are very intelligent, those whose brain clear, they, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. What yajñas they will perform? Not possible. Where is the yajñic brāhmaṇa? [break] "Don't talk. I am very busy." (laughter) [break] ...greatest contribution? Brahmānanda: "The greatest contribution of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is its authorized translations of Vedic literature." Oh, "The greatest contribution to scholars." No. "The greatest contribution of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is that it is providing to scholars authorized translations of these Vedic literatures." Prabhupāda: That is the remark of a very big professor. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how do we support our challenge that they have not gone to the moon? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (3): How do we support our challenge to the scientists that they have not actually gone to the moon? Prabhupāda: First proof is that they say that there is no life. That is foolishness. There is life. Because we find everywhere life, why not in the moon planet? And there are many others. The first challenge is this. Devotee (3): They say that they have not seen the life, though. Prabhupāda: But what you can see, rascal? Therefore we say you are rascals. Why do you believe your eyes? You cannot see so many things. We don't find any living entity in the ocean. Does it mean there is no living entity? So what is the value of your seeing? That is the defect. They believe in too much their eyes. Although eyes are... Every sense is imperfect. You can see here: "Oh, we don't find anything. It is all zero." Does it mean the sky is zero? There are millions of planets and millions of living entities. So that is their rascaldom. They think that they are perfect. Whatever they see, that is perfect. That is their mistake. If I say, "No, there is no life. I cannot see," is that very good statement? And in the..., externally you don't find any living entity, but is it void of living entities? Then why shall I assert that "There is no living... I cannot see"? Is that very good proposal? Therefore they are rascals. There cannot be any place within this universe which is without life. There cannot be. We see there is life even within sand. How you can say there is no life? "Because I cannot see." What is this argument? What you are? You are a rascal. Because you cannot see, therefore we have to accept? First of all we say you are rascal. And if he says that "I cannot see," is it to be accepted? And the example is there. "I cannot see any life. It is simply water." But there are millions and trillions of life, big, big fish. Where is your perfection of seeing? Devotee (3): Prabhupāda? Why are the big authorities, like the government people...? *Prabhupāda: Nobody is authority. That is our first assertion. Nobody is authority. Therefore we have placed Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa is only authority. All rascals. That is our first assertion-(aside:) Good morning*-that except Kṛṣṇa there is no authority. And one who follows Kṛṣṇa, he is authority. *Devotee (3): Why are the so*-called scientists trying to make the common people believe that... *Prabhupāda: Because they are so*-called scientists. You have already explained. Why you are asking? (laughter) You have already explained, "so-called scientists." That's all. They are not scientists; *they are so*-called scientists. Devotee (3): Why do they want to fool the people? Prabhupāda: Because you are fool. Because you are fool, therefore you become befooled. We do not become befooled by their words. You are fool; you will be befooled. If you want to remain fool, then you will be befooled. And if you become intelligent, then you will not be befooled. They can befool when there are many fools. If there is no fool they cannot befool. So you follow this? Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Devotee (3): The scientists, they are also fools. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): The scientists are also fools. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Mūḍha. That is our definition in the Bhagavad*-gita. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So much educated? māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ-bhāvam āśritāḥ. Their knowledge has no value. The māyā has taken away everything. Indian man (4): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: māyayāpahṛta jñānā. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (4): Honor... *Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Unless one understands Kṛṣṇa... Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. Veda means knowledge. So all kinds of knowledge, they are aiming at the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So if one does not understand what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then māyayāpahṛta-jñānā*-he has no knowledge. Knowledge means ultimately he must know what is God. That is knowledge. Ye kṛṣṇa tattva vetta sei guru haya. Anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa, he becomes guru. Otherwise not. The first test is you may be scientist, philosopher, educationist, whatever you may be, but ask him, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" If he says, "No," then he is a fool. That's all. This is the test. (chuckles) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Ambarisa Mahārāja, do you agree? Ambarīṣa: Yes. It's a good test. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Goldsmith, they take a stone, black stone. Do you know? And they rub the gold on the stone, and they can immediately say whether it is gold or not. So our, that stone, is Kṛṣṇa. If anyone knows Kṛṣṇa, then it is gold. (laughter) Devotee (3): Haribol! Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Otherwise it is bogus. Indian man (5): It is very good. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Formerly these goldsmith boys, their father simply taught how to test gold. And as soon as he learns, he opens a shop and he earns thousands and thousands of rupees. No education. Simply by... Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Even today the jewelers' sons, they are expert in knowing diamonds and they make millions of rupees. Indian man (6): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: This is Indian old fashion. They simply know how to test jewels and gold. That's all. One knowledge makes him rich. *ī: Avyavasāyinām bahu-śākha. And vyavasāyayinām*-one. From practical point of view, from business point of view also, I started this Kṛṣṇa conscious business with forty rupees. Now we have forty crores. Who has got such business success? (laughter) Bring anyone. Within ten years. And here is Ambar ṣa Mahārāja. He is ready to give us any money, any amount of money, Ambar ī ṣa Mahārāja, yes, whole Ford Company. (laughter) So who has got this business? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. I think there is no such history in the world, to begin business with forty rupees, and within ten years it becomes forty crores. One cannot imagine even. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) "You are servant, and wherefrom you will get twelve lakhs of rupees within three years? You cannot get it." (Hindi) Busy. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Learn from dog one lesson. They are very faithful to the master, very faithful. [break] ...do not see anything now in the sky. Does it mean it is vacant? So what is the value of your seeing? Brahmānanda: There's a philosophy that says that if a tree falls down in a forest and I am not there to see it, then it hasn't happened. Prabhupāda: There is philosophy? Brahmānanda: : Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is their logic? Hm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Want to see everything with their own eyes. Girirāja: : They think the existence of the tree is dependent on their sense perception. Prabhupāda: Gladstone or what, that poet? "Full many flowers' gloss unseen." Therefore there is no flower? "Full many flowers' gloss unseen." This is foolish philosophy. Now this plane is going. After half an hour it will not be seen. Does it mean it is finished? (laughter) There is no more? Indian man (7): But also in the sky we can see something. I can see many things. I can see something. It is not vacant space. Only thing I don't know what it is. Prabhupāda: Then you cannot see the stars. Can you see the stars now? Indian man (7): No. *Prabhupāda: Then can you say there is no star? Then? That means what you cannot see, that is not final. Therefore our Vedic instruction is śāstra cakṣusāt: You should see through the śastra, not you these useless eyes. These are useless. Tad*-vijñānārtham sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. In order to know perfectly, one should go to the guru. And Bhagavad-gītā has said, *"One who has seen, go there and learn it." That is the injunction. Don't try to see yourself. That is foolishness. This very word is used, tattva*-darśinaḥ, "one who has seen." You have to go there and see through his eyes, through his instruction. That is real seeing. Devotee (5): : They're paying you respects, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Oh. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Yaśomatīnandana: No one has any chance against your philosophy. No one has any chance. Many times people start arguing. Within five or ten minutes they are completely calmed down. And after fifteen minutes, "Because we started arguing, we have learned so much from you." Prabhupāda: That is sane man. Indian man (8): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] Dr. Patel: Why I come so early and all that. Shall I say, sir? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: That is why I come so early. You may explain them, sir. Prabhupāda: No, you explain. *Dr. Patel: It is said in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavata that your mind, atmanaḥ prasaṅga, the saṅga. Saṅga means attachment. Prabhupāda: Prasaṅgam. Dr. Patel: Prasaṅga and saṅga, the same. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Prakṛṣṭa*-rupena saṅga. Very tight. Dr. Patel: Saṅga. Very tight saṅga, very tight attachment of mind is there always. Prabhupāda: Not mind, of the soul. *Dr. Patel: atmanaḥ. Because mind and soul, both are... There is always there, ajara, undying. "But if that attachment is made to a sādhu, that becomes mokṣa*-dvāram apāvṛtam, that becomes opening of the door of mokṣa." So I come here to sādhuṣu kṛtaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, another śloka is made by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He is praying to Kṛṣṇa that "As a young man has got attachment for young woman and young woman has got attachment for the young man, similar attachment, when I'll have upon You?" This is very natural to young men and young women, attachment. The whole world is going on on this, what is called, sex attachment. Puṁsam striya mithuni*-bhavam etad. This material world means they are combined together on the platform of sex. Yan maithunadi-gṛhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. So that is a very great attachment. So Rūpa Gosvāmī is praying, "When I will have the same attachment for You." Yuvatinam yatha yunoḥ. [break] Dr. Patel: ...have something else in Gujarati. Indriya nila... (Gujarati) "The work that you do for satisfaction of the indriyas, (Gujarati)..." That is the bhakti, when you do same action for (Gujarati) God. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference between kāma and prema. Kāma means worldly attachment, and prema means attachment for God. That's all. In Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said, atmendriya-tṛpti-vañcha tara nāma kāma: "When one desires his own sense gratification, that is called kāma." And kṛṣṇendriya-tṛpti-vañcha dhare prema nāma. Dr. Patel: That is prema. Prabhupāda: That is prema. "When one wants to satisfy Kṛṣṇa's senses, that is prema." Dr. Patel: That is called lust and love. Prabhupāda: This is the difference between lust and love. Just like gopīs. It looks like kāma but it is prema. *Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that gopīs really, they are kāma*-toṣa, and when they touched the sacred feet of Kṛṣṇa their whole thing was turned into the sacred prema. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Because, you see, every woman loves the husband, but they don't become gopīs because the husband hasn't got that qualities like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was above three guṇas, so they became tri*-guṇātita, all gopīs. Actually they were motivated by kama, but when they actually had the source of all prema, touched the feet of Kṛṣṇa, they converted themselves beyond all the three guṇas. Because God is not within the māyā, He is above it, so anything which was there comes above it. Prabhupāda: [break] ...understanding Kṛṣṇa's position, if one... Kṛṣṇa... *Dr. Patel: They are talking nonsense about rasa*-līlā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: They are so silly, they don't understand, because they include their own self there. They think that Kṛṣṇa was just like them, and then they certify(?) themselves with gopīs, what they would do with gopīs. Prabhupāda: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Param (Hindi) Otherwise it is... Dr. Patel: It is said that gopīs were not foolish. They were very intelligent girls, extremely, because they chose what was to be chosen. *Prabhupāda: [break] Eternal companion of Kṛṣṇa. ananda*-cinmaya-rasa pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ [Bs. 5.37]. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāva. The gopīs are expansion of Kṛṣṇa's ananda-cinmāyā-rasa pleasure potency. Rūpa Gosvāmī, tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tucchavat. (Hindi) Tucchavat. But the engagement was gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. Dr. Patel: Yes, that is right sir. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Because the little part of it is remaining there and that never goes away from anyone with God. Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭi, sādhu... (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Hm. Because they are the agents of param. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Mokṣa*-dvāra apāvṛtam. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Bhakti without jñāna can be practiced. So when there is bhakti, automatically there is jñāna. Without bhakti there is no jñāna. But without jñāna bhakti can be practiced. Devotee: Jaya. Haribol. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Yes. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says, striya śūdrās tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. (Hindi) Stri, śūdra or vaiśya, they are not advanced in knowledge, but Kṛṣṇa says, striya śūdrās tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. (Hindi) Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ-prayojitaḥ [SB 1.2.7]. When he applies bhakti-yoga at the lotus feet of Vāsudeva, janayaty āśu vairāgyam. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Jñāna means only God is right, Kṛṣṇa is right, and all this is wrong. Prabhupāda: No, jñāna means... Real jñāna means "We don't want this material world." That is jñāna. That is vairāgya because people are attached to this material world, and jñāna means completely detached. But he's suffering. On account of this attachment, he's taking repeatedly birth, birth, birth, death, birth, death, birth. So jñāna means to get release from this repetition of birth and death. *Dr. Patel: That is because the people have atmā*-buddhi and kunape tri-dhātuke. Prabhupāda: These rascals talk of jñāna, but they keep full attachment for this material world. *Dr. Patel: The kunape tri*-dhātuke. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Jñāna-vairāgyam. One must feel disgusted in this material world, repetition of birth and death. That is jñāna. If one is not disgusted*-he still thinks it is very nice to take birth and die-then where is jñāna? There is no jñāna. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's disciples said, ara nare bak. Ara nare bak. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: No, even, you see, sir, this attraction to the other sex is so strong and great it is very difficult for human beings to get relief. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is to be explained. That is explained, Bhagavad*-gītā, This is the way. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Dr. Patel: Extremely difficult, that even man like Gautama Buddha had several times come back to see his child and son when he left his house, more than half a dozen times, come and go, come and go. Finally he closed his eyes and ran away. A man of that type. And for ordinary human beings it is very difficult. *Prabhupāda: No, it is not difficult. Therefore vānaprastha is recommended, that "Go out of home, remain in the tīrtha*-sthana and again come. See your children. Again go. Then take sannyāsa. Dr. Patel: Tapering it. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) *Dr. Patel: That is why devata*-loka is not a place from where you can have a release. It is from human life that you can have moksa. Devatas cannot get it. Prabhupāda: No, no, human... Devatas cannot because they have got enough of material enjoyment. Dr. Patel: The Americans. Prabhupāda: Just like America... (laughs) Americans have not even one per cent. They are many thousands times opulent, the demigods. So it is very difficult. Just like here for a very rich man to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult. That is a disquali... *(Hindi) Voluntarily sannyāsa. All big, big kings in India, voluntarily: "Eh! Give it! Kick it out!" Mahārāja Bhārata, at the age of twenty*-four years, he left everything, young wife, children, kingdom, whole world-gave it up. This is Indian culture, vairāgya. Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, (Hindi) as soon as the grandson, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, was major: "Take it. We are going." That is the fact. (Hindi) Even Mahatma [Gandhi]. He declared himself mahātmā. He is such a mahātmā that unless he was killed by Goli(?), he was not leaving anything. He was not prepared. This is mahātmā, Kali-yūga ka mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso [Bg. 9.13]. (Hindi) ...politics, politics, politics. (Hindi) ...nonviolence theory. Kṛṣṇa said, "You will die by violence. Nonviolence, there cannot be nonviolence. You wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā and criticize Me, Kṛṣṇa. All right, you die." Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: But it is a narrow sight that Kṛṣṇa was a war*-mongerer. Mr. Nehru. He was more... Prabhupāda: Nehru is... What is his value? *Dr. Patel: He said, "Kṛṣṇa is the greatest war*-mongerer." *Prabhupāda: Nehru and company are praised... That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhag... Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. A big animal is being eulogized by small animals. Does it mean a big animal is a human being? He's animal. Dr. Patel: I think he had not understood exactly. Prabhupāda: What he understood? *Dr. Patel: The second adhyaya, Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: He never knew what is *Gītā*. He plainly... Yaśomatīnandana: He was an atheist. Prabhupāda: In America, when he went, somebody requested, "You explain something of *Gītā*." He said, "I do not know much about *Gītā*." He explained. He frankly admitted that "I do not know." His excuse was like that. And he did not know anything. He thought, "Overnight, if I make my country like America, that is success." And he constructed a few skyscraper building, or big, big building in New Delhi, and he thought, "My country is like that." Therefore, when President Eisenhower came, he wanted to see the village. And as soon as he saw the village, the secret was out. Dr. Patel: No, that man was a dreamer rather than a practical man. Practical man was only Sadar Patel. Prabhupāda: Jaya. [break] Those who are intelligent Indians, they should combine together and present Indian culture as it is. Then the country is glorified. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...kari karo paropakara. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. The whole world is in darkness. Give them some light. First of all you yourself take light; *then you distribute. [break] ...letter, that "Now you have got svarājya, you give up this nonsense. Preach Bhagavad*-gītā. Otherwise you will meet the fate of Mussolini." And actually it was done. *Yaśomatīnandana: It seems that it is better that he did not preach Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yaśomatīnandana: With his understanding. *Prabhupāda: Of course, one cannot preach Bhagavad*-gītā unless he is empowered by Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nahe nāma pracaraṇa. It is not possible. (end) Morning Walk -- November 15, 1975, Bombay Prabhupāda: Hm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That new Gurukula picture that they had sent you in Illinois near Chicago? They have taken that. Brahmānanda: It's a military school. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A military school. Prabhupāda: Oh. Military school or military barracks? Brahmānanda: No, a military school. Prabhupāda: What is the price? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: 420,000...? Brahmānanda: Four fifty. Prabhupāda: So they have paid? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are going to pay 150,000 in January. It looks perfect for Gurukula. Prabhupāda: How far? It is in Chicago? Brahmānanda: It's about, I think, an hour and a half from Chicago by car. Prabhupāda: Oh. It is a village. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: [break] ...the description? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: There are many buildings? Brahmānanda: Oh, there's about nine buildings. There's a main administration building and classroom building. There is two new buildings. One is a dining hall that seats two hundred. Prabhupāda: (to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...the Gujaratis would never keep dogs but now... Prabhupāda: Now they are becoming civilized. (laughter) Advanced. [break] Therefore I made this trust: fifty percent, fifty percent. Brahmānanda: So there will always be money for purchasing. Prabhupāda: Yes. And because we are doing that, Kṛṣṇa is giving us facility. [break] ...ning how much difficulty we had. We could not purchase that house, number sixty street? Brahmānanda: Yes. That was a hundred thousand dollars, that house. Prabhupāda: No, no. Not hundred. Sixty. Sixty thousand dollars. Sixty thousand dollars, and still, we could not. Another attempt was made to purchase that bank building. So we had no money, only five thousand, and that was also taken away. [break] Indian man (1): Do you believe in these (Hindi) and everything? Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (1): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Indian man (1): Do you believe? Prabhupāda: Why not? There are many gṛhastha devotees. Here is gṛhastha devotee. Indian man (1): Thank you. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...which you want to set up, they are available, ready*-made? Saurabha: Some of them are ready, but we need about a hundred, so I don't think there will be one hundred ready. But if the order is placed in advance, then they will... Prabhupāda: Eh? Saurabha: If the order is placed in advance, then they will start making immediately. They can do that very fast. *Prabhupāda: So whatever ready*-made we can purchase? Saurabha: Well, it has to be the proper size also. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. They can do it. Saurabha: They have many men. They can very quickly carve those. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: What is it you were saying? Saurabha: Well, it's... Fixing has to be done. Brahmānanda: Domes? Saurabha: Domes, yes. Also the time will go in the domes. Prabhupāda: Eh? Saurabha: Lot of time will go in the domes because there's many, many towers. Pillars is not so difficult. [break] ...two men have been making sketches on different designs for panels and columns, and as soon as you decide to pay, then they can start work immediately. Prabhupāda: So we have decided. Do it. Saurabha: Yes. It takes them about ten more days, fourteen days to get the drawings done. It will be all done in Makrana. They carve it there. They won't do it here. And then they bring it. Only small carvings will be done. There they have all facilities and many, many people. Prabhupāda: Yes. They have kaligarhs. (?) Saurabha: Very quickly that will be done. Vipramukhya: [break] Would you like to have a temple established in every village? Prabhupāda: Yes. Vipramukhya: I heard at the Long Island temple that you did not want to have a temple in every village right now. Prabhupāda: I did not say anything about Long Island. Vipramukhya: You'd like many temples, one in every village. Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said. [break] Vipramukhya: ...bring Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the people, they don't have to travel long distances to the temples. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...fast, these birds. Airplane cannot do that. Lokanātha: How do they decide the direction and they turn all together? Prabhupāda: Huh? Lokanātha: How they turn all together and how do they communicate each other that "Yes, let's move out away"? Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got intelligence. You are thinking that they have no intelligence. They have got complete intelligence. Lokanātha: They have, but how do they all together decide to either turn right or left or... Prabhupāda: That is intelligence. You do not know that. If you are given airplane, so many, you'll, immediately at least half a dozen will be finished. (laughter) That means you are less intelligent than the birds, at least in the matter of flying. Indian man (3): (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: ...you wanted to construct apartment house. Is it possible to do now? Saurabha: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Saurabha: Because we don't have the required garden space yet. We have to break down the huts in the back. There's some hutments there, and unless those are removed, we cannot do any other construction. Prabhupāda: No. We can make plan including hut but we can begin. Saurabha: Then we are short of S of I.(?) We don't have. All these houses have to be broken down to get more space and also the sufficient S of I to plan the building. Prabhupāda: But we have got sufficient S of I. *Saurabha: Yes, but we need... We require a certain area for garden, and that is not there yet. Minimum garden has to be, and we have about three*-quarter of that. So unless you make another garden first, we cannot make, according to the architects. But maybe with, er, by paying some money in advance, that we promise them that, say, after so much time we will break these houses down, then they may agree, like they agreed on the old house that we had to pay six hundred rupees, and as soon as we break the house down we get six hundred rupees back. Then they know that we will break it down. Prabhupāda: Which one? Saurabha: The old house. Prabhupāda: Oh, old house. Saurabha: Otherwise they won't allow us to build a temple so close to that place. The same problem is with those hutment. In order to build the building they have be moved or we have to promise them that within a certain time we will break them down. Girirāja: If we keep the garden around the back of the temple and the front. Remember we discussed that? Saurabha: Yes. We have to... But as long as that house is there, we can't do that. The old house is there too. Girirāja: We've already agreed to remove the old house. Saurabha: Yes, but one has to have the open area as garden in order to do that. Girirāja: So in the layout there's room. Saurabha: Yes, but it's not there yet. You either have to break down the old house or the hutment. But it may be now, because the situation is more favorable, that they allow, that they believe us. We can try it. We will make a design for the whole building. Prabhupāda: Yes. Including that... And request them to come to our, one of the top floor. And as soon as the building is... They'll... In this way. [break] Saurabha: ...plan and we make everything to submit to the municipality and then we will hear from them what is required and we will try to do that, whatever they want. Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: Now there is two things. We can make big apartments for which most people are anxious actually. Prabhupāda: What is that? Saurabha: Those apartment buildings. Make them very opulent and big. They want... Some people told me they like to have apartments of 2,000 square feet for one apartment. It should have four big rooms, a kitchen, everything, very opulent. Like this we can have on one floor two of them. We can have 4,000 square feet on one floor. It is possible. Prabhupāda: Do that. Do. Saurabha: And then we make five like this, six, five or six. Then put... For those buildings one can get about 150. I think here at least 150 rupees per square foot minimum. I think it will... By the time we are having it built there'll be more. Prabhupāda: So try for that. Saurabha: Some buildings, it's already 175. Build a parlor so that each... Prabhupāda: The tenants will advance money. If you open office they will pay advance. You can go on constructing. If not, we shall take money from Bank of America. [break] Saurabha: ...make a parking under the building. Prabhupāda: Huh? Saurabha: Take this building. Lease parking space under there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Every one of them like that. Saurabha: The building will be about big like this, this size. Prabhupāda: So do it. [break] ...please come and take prasādam. (kīrtana) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make a plan here? Saurabha: This one. The other one is very complicated with very big... It's got wood, very big columns. (end) Morning Walk -- November 16, 1975, Bombay Girirāja: He said, "We don't know where the ingredients came from, but we're sure that there's..." Prabhupāda: Then why do you talk nonsense? (laughter) That is another rascal. You do not know. Then what is the use of talking nonsense? You do not know wherefrom these ingredients came. That is nonsense. Our answer is, Kṛṣṇa reveals, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]: "The ingredients coming from Me." Now make experiment how the ingredients are coming. Devotee (1): But they say, "Where did Kṛṣṇa come from?" Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa. Go to... By and by, you go to Kṛṣṇa, and when you don't find Kṛṣṇa's cause, that is Kṛṣṇa. Anādir ādiḥ. He is anādi, but He is adi. That is Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (1): They say the original ingredients for the explosion, then, according to your definition, is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. Patel: You should never think like that. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes, sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. But He has no kāraṇa. *Dr. Patel: This is ādi*-praśna. Ādi-praśna. Ma pracasva. Ādi-praśna Prabhupāda: No, no. He is, after all, a student here. That... This is Kṛṣṇa, that you go... Just like you are caused by your father. Your father is caused by your grandfather, his father, his father, his father, his father. In this way, if you go to Kṛṣṇa, then He has no father, and that is Kṛṣṇa. So long you will find another father, then he is not supreme. And when there is no more father, then He is supreme. *Dr. Patel: It is very difficult for us to understand the divya*-bhāva of Kṛṣṇa. That is why people are asking these questions because divya-bhāva is very difficult to be understood. Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, Those who are simply chewing the chewed, they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Naisaṁ matis tavad urukramāṅghrīm [SB 7.5.32]. Yaśomatīnandana: Niskiñcananam... *Prabhupāda: Ah. Niskiñcananaṁ mahiyasam. It has to be understood from the same thing, tattva*-darśinam. Otherwise it is not possible. You cannot speculate. If you say, as Gandhi said, "My Kṛṣṇa is of my imagination," that kind of knowledge has no value. What you are, your imagination? Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā. Parataḥ svato vā. Vidya-bhāgavatavadhiḥ. If one reads Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, then he gets the ultimate knowledge of everything. That is the ultimate end, limit of knowledge. Dr. Patel: Tasya karyaṁ na vidyate. Prabhupāda: Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ... Nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa, and they are thinking, "In my imagination, Kṛṣṇa is like this." What is the value of this imagination? *Dr. Patel: That is why I said, sir, that divya*-bhāva is very difficult to tell because it is felt by the divya-bhāva itself. It cannot be felt by the... Prabhupāda: Yes, and therefore Kṛṣṇa said, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Unless one is siddha, there is no question of understanding Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]. Even if he is siddha he cannot understand. Out of many of them, one may understand. And they are trying to understand Kṛṣṇa by imagination. Just see the folly. Kṛṣṇa said, *And because one is voted some big man-śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]*-he is thinking...(laughter) He is thinking that "I can imagine my Kṛṣṇa." Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) [break] ...accept the opinion of a saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. Because public votes are there, although he is a puruṣaḥ paśuḥ, we have to accept. So Ambarisa Mahārāja, you are feeling all right or not? Ambarisa: Yes, I am feeling well today. Prabhupāda: You are taking yogurt? Give him kicheri and yogurt. Harikesa: He won't eat yogurt. Ambarisa: No, I eat it with that śādhisav, gold(?), mixed in it. Prabhupāda: No, no. Take yogurt with black pepper and salt. Yes. Ambarisa: Oh, okay. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Very good. What is your name? Indian child: Kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Kesan? Indian child: Kīrtana. Yaśomatīnandana: Kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Kīrtana, oh. Girirāja: Actually, he comes and dances in ecstasy in the temple. Prabhupāda: Very good. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. Girirāja: After the kīrtana we read the Kṛṣṇa book, and his parents want to leave, but he insists on staying. Prabhupāda: Good boy. Very good. Yaśomatīnandana: What was that, inquired? Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Yaśomatīnandana: Girirāja was saying something. Girirāja: Oh, yes, the scientist. When the reporter asked him where the things come from, he said he doesn't know but he's sure that... *Prabhupāda: Still, he is scientist. He doesn't know. He is rascal, still he is scientist. (laughter) Just see. Contradiction. He doesn't know. Still, he is scientist. One word. He doesn't know anything, but he is scientist. Just see. (Hindi) And we have to hear him*-the unfortunate position. We say that "Go for scientific knowledge to a person who knows, who has seen." And this rascal, he says, "I do not know; still, I am scientist." Then what he replied? He doesn't know? Girirāja: But he's sure that they don't need God to explain it. Prabhupāda: That he knows, how to deny God. That he is expert. And the newspaper reporter accepted this? Girirāja: No. He didn't express his point of view, but you could see he wasn't satisfied. Prabhupāda: That is the position. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Girirāja: Then he asked him about the future. Prabhupāda: Future is darkness because these are scientists. He doesn't know; still, he is scientist. Then what is the future? Future is darkness, because a person who doesn't know, he has become leader. The same thing, andha yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. If a blind man, he becomes the leader of other blind men... Devotee (2): Actually it's sad that if someone says there is no God then that means that they... Prabhupāda: He's a dog. Devotee (2): He's a dog. Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately. Anyone who says there is no God, then he, immediately he's a dog. That's all. Yaśomatīnandana: No more words. Prabhupāda: No more words. He is immediately a dog. That's all. Devotee (2): If he cannot see throughout the entire universe, from one end of the universe to the other, how can he make the statement that there is no God? He cannot see. And yet they are saying, "I don't know." Prabhupāda: This is reasonable. [break] ...no God, it is spoken by pagala, mad, mad. In Bengal it is said, pagale ki na bale, chagale ki na khaya. (Hindi) Chagala, goat. Brahmānanda: "What the goat does not eat?" Is that? Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: "What the goat does not eat?" Prabhupāda: It eats everything, goat. Brahmānanda: "And what the fool will not speak?" Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no discrimination. We can go this side. Pagale ki na bale, chagale ki na khaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yaśomatīnandana: Now all these pagalas are making such a big noise all over the world. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. And doing all kinds of sinful activities*-kurute vikarma-because they are pagalas. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. It is very difficult there to cross? Indian man (3): Yes, sir. [break] Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Indian man (3): What is your idea about the secularism preached by our government of India and the policy of secularism? What do they mean by that? That means they say that there is no place for religion. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharmena hina paśubhiḥ samana. As soon as there is no religion, the population*-animal, that's all. That is going on. Because there was no religion, therefore the government has to declare emergency. (laughter) Because all animals. So they created first animals, then emergency. This is going on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why emergency? If there is human being, then why emergency? All animals. To control the animals you require some special measure. This is the proof that they're animals. Otherwise why? Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is long, long ago said, dharmena hina paśubhiḥ samana: "When you give up religion, you are no better than animals." Indian man (3): What is the harm if I become an animal also? Prabhupāda: You are already animal. There is no question of becoming animal. You are already animal. (laughter) Indian man (3): So what is the difference between animal and a man? Prabhupāda: Because you do not know, therefore you are animal. Therefore you are animal. You do not know what is the difference between man and animal; therefore you are animal. Indian man (3): Very good. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You are good animal. (laughter) Indian man (3): This is right answer. When you cannot differentiate between man and animal, then that means you are animal. *Prabhupāda: And you admit it*-then good animal. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...who has got this bodily conception of life, he is animal. That is the definition of animal. Indian man (3): Anyone? Prabhupāda: Who is thinking, "I am this body," he is animal. Indian man (3): Means? Prabhupāda: Means anyone who is thinking, "I am this body." Indian man (3): "I am the"? *Prabhupāda: This body. And in body relationship, "She is my wife, she is my child, she is my countrymen, she is my race." So this is dehātmā*-buddhiḥ. Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ... "This is my country." In this way one is thinking, and little more religiosity, he is going to holy place and taking bath in the river but not to the person who knows things. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. There are. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Go means cow, and kharaḥ means ass. This class of men are grouped among the cows and asses. Dr. Patel: Asses. Indian man (3): That means they have got no... Sthira buddhiḥ neha(?) (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) This is animal civilization. There is no spiritual knowledge. Simply like cats and dogs, they are working hard, eating, sleeping... Indian man (3): Then what should be the spirit of a man? How do you call him a man? *Prabhupāda: When he knows that he is not this body*-he is soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi-then he begins to become. Then his real identity... *Indian man (3): That means ninety*-nine, ninety percent of the people living in the world are practically animals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Asses. Indian man (3): Asses. Prabhupāda: Very good analysis. Why asses? And you load the ass with as much cloth, washerman, and he cannot move. But he will go on, and the washerman will give, after that, little grass, and he will stand there up to the evening again to be loaded. The ass does not know that "This much grass I can get anywhere. Why I have become servant of this washerman?" Therefore he is ass. He will eat two capātīs, but he is working like an ass whole day. Indian man (3): Yes. And he cannot eat more than two capātīs. Prabhupāda: That's all. So if the ass, he will eat a little grass, which can be had anywhere, but he is working for the washerman. Therefore he is ass. Indian man (3): But (Hindi) in the ass... There is (Hindi) some egotism in the human being, but that is not there in the ass. Prabhupāda: No, no, that egoism also ass has got. That egoism is there in ass also. Indian man (3): But how do you know it? Prabhupāda: Any animal, he knows that "I am ass." Dog knows, "I am dog." Similarly, if you know "I am Hindu," "I am Mussulman"- the same conception. What is the difference? If a dog thinks "I am dog," and if you think that you are Indian, then where is the difference? Simply by changing the name you become very big man? The conception is the same. Indian man (3): That point is not clear. Prabhupāda: It is clear. Just like two dogs. He is thinking, "I am dog of this quarter," and another dog is thinking, "I am this dog. Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" So what is that? Does that make any difference? Similarly, you are thinking, "Indian," he is thinking, "American." Fighting like dogs. Where is the difference between the dog and this conception? Indian man (3): That point is right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (4): (Hindi) Indian man (3): Make your mind understand is very problematic. Prabhupāda: It is not problematic. It requires the association. Association, teacher, then it will be possible. Indian man (3): Association is most necessary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (3): Namaste. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. [break] (Hindi)...reporter was not satisfied. Eh? Brahmānanda: Girirāja? The press reporter was not satisfied. Girirāja: No. Then he asked him about the future. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So what he will...? He does not know. What he'll speak? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Girirāja: He said the population will go on increasing more and more, and there won't be enough food, so everyone will starve. Prabhupāda: He said, the scientist. Then what your scientific knowledge will help? Brahmānanda: Well, if they drop some bombs they will reduce the population. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That is very easy. The bomb is also ready. Everyone has got now nuclear weapon, bomb. So the scientists gave the solution. So what is the use of scientific knowledge? This is going to happen. Brahmānanda: Actually there was one proposal. It was written in the seventeenth century in England by one famous writer, that "Because the population is increasing so much, therefore if we become cannibals, then the population will be maintained." Yaśomatīnandana: So who will eat who? Brahmānanda: Well, that he didn't say. Prabhupāda: These are scientists, big men. Girirāja: So the reporter asked him what were his personal plans for the future. So he said he likes one girl, so he wants to get married, and that's all. Brahmānanda: Increase the population. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Our plan is the best because before meeting such catastrophies, go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the best. They are seeing the catastrophe, but they have no way to escape. That is the difference between them and ourselves. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...said that "There is no need of God, but there is need of girl, of a girl." He said that. Then what is the difference between a scientist and a dog? The dog also does not know what is God, but another female dog he wants. Huh? What is the difference? Sa eva go*-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Then it is proved that he is no better than animal. The animal requires another opposite sex, but he does not know God. Then where is the difference? [break] Brahmānanda: You know that the Detroit house, the house in Detroit? The president, he wrote in his letter. I neglected to ask you. He wanted to have a name for that temple. Prabhupāda: Oh. Brahmānanda: So Ambarisa prabhu says that he was thinking of New Keśighāṭa, because it's situated near the water. Prabhupāda: Keśighāṭa we have already given in New Vṛn... Ambarisa: It's right on a river. [break] Prabhupāda: ...name that... Kṛṣṇa... They brought the assembly house from heaven and located in Dvāraka. There is a name like that. I shall give you the name. Brahmānanda: [break] ...robi. You can give a name for Nairobi mandir. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Devasadan. Brahmānanda: Devasadan. What is the meaning? Prabhupāda: Celestial building. Ambarisa: What does it mean? Brahmānanda: Celestial. *Prabhupāda: D*-e-v-a-s-a-d-a-n. Devasadan. [break] Brahmānanda: ...Devasadana? Prabhupāda: No. Devasadan. Brahmānanda: Just Devasadan. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Brahmānanda: ...Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana is not black. (laughter) People have come less due to candra*-gana. [break] Kirātuddhara. Brahmānanda: Kirāta? Prabhupāda: Uddhara. Brahmānanda: Udha. Udha means? Prabhupāda: Uddhara means deliverance. Brahmānanda: Okay. "Delivering the kirātas." They might object to that. (laughing) They might object to that. Prabhupāda: They might object? Brahmānanda: The Africans, if they ask what is the meaning of that, they might object. *Prabhupāda: No, you can say kirāta means African. Actually that is the meaning. Kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkhaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ ye 'nye ca pāpā... *Yaśomatīnandana: Yad*-apāśrayāśrayāḥ. Prabhupāda: Śuddhyanti. Yaśomatīnandana: What is this Ābhīras? Ābhīra? Prabhupāda: Ābhīra, this dacoit class. Yaśomatīnandana: Dacoits. Prabhupāda: Just like the queens of Dvāraka were plundered by the Ābhīra. That's why. There is no pasturing ground. Otherwise this cow would have been taken there. He would have eaten grass. That's all. What she will eat here in the town? Even Sumati Morarji's cows, they are not healthy. (Hindi) (pause) It appears to be so because in the evening the milk, whatever you give me, that appears to be powdered milk. Brahmānanda: It was powdered milk? Prabhupāda: It appears. Now it is confirmed. Yaśomatīnandana: Maybe we should have our men stand there and milk and get directly from... Prabhupāda: Everyone will say, "We should have," but who will have? There is no men. As soon as try to find out a man, there is no man. Simply we shall suggest, "We should have." That's all. And who is the man, that is not to be found, although we have got so many men. Why this deficiency? Everyone suggests that "There should have been a man," but who is that man? No man. As soon as try to find out who is that man, no man. Find out a man immediately. Not "should have." Immediately you must have. [break] Brahmānanda: ...means? Prabhupāda: Means African. Brahmānanda: African? No other meaning to it? No other meaning? Prabhupāda: American? (laughter) (end) Morning Walk -- November 17, 1975, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...poverty. Dr. Patel: They have nothing to eat all the time. Ninety percent of the peasantry absolutely, completely wiped out during the Britishers' time. They never looked after them. Prabhupāda: No, no. Poverty is the cause of nonretirement? Dr. Patel: They have nothing to eat. They hardly get, I mean, two meals. Not square but even triangle. (laughs) They don't get any food in the mofices(?). Prabhupāda: What is the question of mofices?(?) I am talking of... Dr. Patel: India is made up of all villages and mofices(?). Cities are few. Prabhupāda: So that is the cause of nonretirement. Dr. Patel: I mean to my mind. It may be another cause also. I don't know. What do you think? Lack of proper education? Prabhupāda: Yes. Big, big men like Jawaharlal Nehru, Gandhi, they never retired. Dr. Patel: Gandhi, as a matter of fact, retired long back. I mean the... As far as I know, he was not a member of the Congress. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It was everything. Dr. Patel: That is... You are. You may not be member, but you are everything. They like that. I mean, if I am not wrong. Prabhupāda: What do you mean by retire? Retire means... Dr. Patel: Retire from the worldly affairs. Prabhupāda: From the worldly affairs. That is retire. We are not śūnyavādi. The retirement means... Dr. Patel: Our religions are dharma, artha, kāma and mokṣa. It is in a continuity. It is a sort of a string. First you have artha... *Prabhupāda: The real thing is they do not retire on account of their strong sense of gratification. That is the reason, not that poverty*-stricken. Even though poverty-stricken, still they want to enjoy. This is the basic principle. There is nothing to be enjoyed; still, he wants to enjoy. That mentality. Dr. Patel: Why with all that glorious past and glorious culture they have to... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...the principle, varṇāśrama*-dharma. Dr. Patel: Our culture was so built as to do work for Kṛṣṇa throughout the life from brahmācārya, gṛhastha āśrama, vānaprastha... Prabhupāda: But where is the question. Unless... Dr. Patel: But how they have forgotten this is the greatest, I mean, mystery to me. Because the sādhus voluntarily, I mean, embrace poverty? Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. Patel: All those, sir... Prabhupāda: This service to Kṛṣṇa has disappeared on account of this māyāvāda philosophy. Dr. Patel: You think so. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: And māyāvāda philosophy was necessary to dislodge the Buddhist, degenerated Buddhism. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śūnyavādi. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi. They are practically the same. Buddhists say that everything is zero ultimately. And the Māyāvādīs say... Dr. Patel: Māyāvādīs, sir, have been proved that if everything is zero, who sees the zero? Who sees the zero? Prabhupāda: No, no. Māyāvādī says zero, just like the sky. The sky is there, but it is zero. You cannot see the planet. Dr. Patel: But who sees all these things? That is what... Prabhupāda: And he cannot see; therefore he says it is zero. Just like now you do not see the stars, but it is on account of my deficient vision I do not see, and I say, "It is zero," less intelligent. *Dr. Patel: Apahṛta*-jñāna. Apahṛta-jñāna. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Apahṛta*-jñāna Māyāvādīs, they have spoiled the whole thing. Dr. Patel: Do you think, in your opinion, māyāvāda was a necessity to undo all the bad effect of the degenerated Buddhism? This followed some three, four or seven hundred years of after Gautama Buddha. *Prabhupāda: No, it... It might be necessity for the time being. Buddhism also was a necessity for the time being. They are not for all. Emergency. Just like it is going on, "emergency." It is not necessity, but sometimes we have to take emergency. Otherwise how Vaiṣṇavas are worshiping Lord Buddha? Eh? Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jatam: "You are always deriding the Vedic principles," śruti-jatam. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita-paśu-ghāṭam. This is emergency, that "You have become so much compassionate upon the poor animals because they are unnecessarily being killed." Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra, jaya jagadīśa. He is glorifying, keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra, but showing that "You are deriding Vedic principles." So how is that, if one derides Vedic principle, at the same time, jaya jagadīśa hare? Dr. Patel: Because the Vedic principles were not properly understood by those people at that time. *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He directly said, "I don't care for the Vedas." Lord Buddha says. So who will worship a person who directly says, "I don't care for your Vedas"? Shall you go to worship a Buddhist or Mohammedan? No. This is emergency. Sadaya*-hṛdaya-darśita paśu-ghāṭam. He cannot deride the Vedic principle, but it was necessary at the time. Otherwise these rascals will not stop. Dr. Patel: Today, sir, the more animals are being killed than what they were killed in those days in the name of religion. Today it is in the name of the civilization Prabhupāda: Because... No, no. Now there is no religion. "Secular." There is no religion. Dr. Patel: Don't say no religion. Secularism is irreligious... Prabhupāda: Secular means no religion. Dr. Patel: Irreligious rather than. No religion is also something good. But something other than religion. *Prabhupāda: You may call anything, but there is no religion. Dharmena hina paśubhiḥ samanaḥ. They are animals, that's all. The modern civilized man is nothing but an animal*-dressed animal, two-legged animal. The animals are four-legged, and these animals are two-legged, that's all. Or big animal. [break]...varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. The leaders of this modern civilization, they are being praised by other animals. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ [SB 2.3.19]. Śva means dog and... Dr. Patel: Kharāḥ means asses. *Prabhupāda: Śva*-viḍ... Viḍ-varāha means hogs, and uṣṭra means camel, and kharaḥ means gadha, ass. So these leaders are being praised by these animals: dogs, hogs, camels, and asses. And they are thinking they are very big men. What is the value of prayers offered by dogs, hogs, asses and camels? The general people are dogs, hogs, camels. I think you have read. I have explained how they are camel, how they are dog, how they are hog, and how they are ass. I have explained this. Yaśomatīnandana: That's the Second Canto. Prabhupāda: Yes. The modern education means to create dogs. The dog goes door to door and moves the tail, "Please give me if you have anything." So this educated person with application goes, and they say, "No vacancy. Get out." Therefore they are dogs. Educated means dogs. They are creating dogs. In Vedic culture no brāhmaṇa will accept any job. No kṣatriya will accept any job. No vaiśya will accept any... Only śūdras. Only śūdras. Dr. Patel: Now they are keeping dogs in their kitchens. Prabhupāda: Yes. Doggish mentality is there. Dr. Patel: You see, the people are spending more than thirty, forty rupees on a dog every day. But they won't pay two rupees to a servant, domestic servant in their home. Prabhupāda: They are keeping servants also. But educated dogs. After passing so many examinations, they are seeking after master. And without master they will starve. This is doggish mentality. A big technologist, unless he gets a good job, he is nothing but dog. Dr. Patel: He has got no means to further his technology. He must have some means to further his own technology in the modern times, sir. It is very difficult to further your technology without proper means, instruments. *Prabhupāda: On the principle it is dog's business. Unless you get a master, you are useless. So that is dog's business. Just like these dogs here on the beach. Because they have no master, they are forlorn, only barking and going here, there. Sanatha jivitaḥ. So we are, every one of us, we are now dogs of the material nature, or just like street dogs. So therefore... Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we should take shelter of the big master, Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be all right. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...eva caran nirantaram. This is Yamunacārya's prayer. Bhavantam eva caran nirantaram. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Bhavantam eva caran nirantaraṁ praśānta*-nihśeṣa-gato... Prasanta-nihsesa-gato-manantaram. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...all right? No. Not yet. You are feeling all right? No. Ambarisa: Yes, feeling all right. Yes. [break] Indian man (1): Coconut tree along this side. Prabhupāda asking. Ambarisa: [break] ...warm weather in Florida. Prabhupāda: Huh? In Honolulu. That means it depends on weather also, not only seaside. [break] Lokanātha: We chant, "Gaura Nityānanda bol, haribol, haribol..." Prabhupāda: That is all right. Lokanātha: "Gaura śrī advaita..." Is it recommended by you? That is in our paramparā? And what about "jaya jagannātha, jaya jagannātha"? Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. [break] ...anukīrtanam, to chant always the Lord's name. So these are Lord's name. Jagannātha is also Lord's name. Nityānanda is also Lord's name. [break] ...harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. So harer nāma can be chanted. Lokanātha: But chanting in that particular fashion, saying "jaya jagannātha, jaya jagannātha." Prabhupāda: Yes. Chanting means glorifying. "jaya jagannātha." "Please engage me." (to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Indian man (2): South Indian community brāhmaṇas have spread all over Bombay now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (2): South Indian community brāhmaṇas and in Goregon, Mullan, Timpu, Nartinga(?), everywhere. In a year they have about eight to ten saptahams are there. Saptahams. The Nārāyaṇī and that Nepuk Odhari(?), that children are chanting every day all these things. (indistinct) And the saptaham (indistinct) [break] Dr. Patel: He saw the people are coming. And then he was climbing on the top of the roof and shouting, "My boys are not coming?" "They will come. Don't worry." Prabhupāda: Don't bring Rāmakrishna as authority. Dr. Patel: No, but that same thing here. I mean, the people will come. Prabhupāda: They are coming. They are coming. That is another thing. But "People will come; therefore I shall have to sleep," this is not... Dr. Patel: At least I am coming. (laughs) Prabhupāda: So at night there was work? Saurabha: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Prabhupāda: ...government is making secular. That means they think that there is no need of this spiritual education. Dr. Patel: Sir, the secular means, I mean, respect for all the methods of worship. Prabhupāda: There is no method. Dr. Patel: But they means secular means no dharma. That is their definition. It is a wrong definition. *Prabhupāda: That is a defect of the government, that they do not know what is spiritual life. They have no knowledge. Mūḍhas. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know this. They cannot also explain what is the aim of life. That Professor Kotovsky, such a big man, he said, "Swamijī, after death everything is finished." Dr. Patel: Bhasmi bhūtasya śarīrasya kutaḥ... Prabhupāda: Yes. This is this philosophy. This philosophy is prominent all over the world. They are... "So long this body is there, enjoy it to the utmost. And after death everything is finished." Bas. Dr. Patel: Yavaj jīvaṁ sukham... Prabhupāda: Sukhaṁ jivet. Dr. Patel: enaṁ kṛtva ghṛtaṁ pibet. Prabhupāda: Kutaḥ punar agamano abhavet. *Nanda*-kumara: Harikeśa, he is feeling sick. He has a bad headache. [break] Prabhupāda: ...you have come? As soon as he has come, he is feeling headache. (laughter) [break] ...and pain in the stomach is very good disease. Nobody can see. (laughter) If I say, "I am feeling headache," you cannot see. I can sleep very nicely. And pain in the stomach, you cannot see. These two diseases are beyond the physician's limit. Indian man (3): And these are common disease. *Dr. Patel: No, no, as a matter of fact, if there is a continuous headache, we can give him a number*-one needle. Then his head will be cured. Then he will say, "I am all right sir. Now don't do it," with this much of needle inside. [break] Prabhupāda: The first cultural education is how to teach the small children to become purified, brahmacārī. Dr. Patel: In ancient times it was done by association in gurukula. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is required, gurukula. We are starting, therefore, gurukulas. And it is becoming... Dr. Patel: Gurukula. Kula of guru. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmacari gurukule vasan danto guror hitam. This is the beginning. A brahmacārī should live in the aśrama of guru, danta, self*-controlled, and only for the benefit of guru, not for anyone's benefit. Brahmacārī guru... They'll go, collect alms, and everything should be delivered to guru. Dr. Patel: When Kṛṣṇa was sent to collect the wood. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guror hitam. The brahmacārī life means only for the benefit of guru. Everything is there in *Bhāgavatam*. Dr. Patel: That mode of teaching, I mean... Prabhupāda: That can be introduced. Dr. Patel: In a different way is there in America, sir. The American professors keep boys with them. They imbibe in them complete spirit of their educa... I mean, their mode of... Prabhupāda: I don't think so. Dr. Patel: Not this, I mean, the material. But that is the way they do it. That is why their method of education is better than others. Prabhupāda: They drink. Dr. Patel: Drinking is different story. I talk of the general mode of education, the way. Prabhupāda: No. Here are Americans. Is that the education? I don't think so. Dr. Patel: No, postgraduate education is like that. Not undergraduate. The postgraduate boys are living in close contact with the professors for the research. Brahmānanda: Only a few schools. Dr. Patel: Ah, but there are. The research is... Prabhupāda: No, the professor is also drunkard. Dr. Patel: Then he may be a drunkard. Brahmānanda: They drink together. (laughter) Dr. Patel: That's right. That is right. Prabhupāda: The professor goes to hell, and the student also goes. (laughter) Indian man (3): This is their close association. Dr. Patel: That is the way they... Prabhupāda: So you know that story, that one man was drinking, so his friend told him, "You are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my mother drinks." "Oh, she will also go." "My father drinks." "Oh, he will also go." "My brother drinks." "Oh, he will also go." "Then where is hell?" (laughter) "Father, mother, brother, myself, if we live together, then where is hell?" Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Dr. Patel: That's a fact. Education by association is the superior method, whatever type of education may be. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: Whatever type of education may be, but that is the real education. Prabhupāda: No, no. Not whatever. This is the education, that the... Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. This is education. There is no question of ABCD. First of all brahmacārī gurukule vasan dantaḥ. He is to be trained how to become sober and gentle. *Dr. Patel: Self*-controlled. Prabhupāda: That is required. That is education. This is not education. They are killing the teachers. They are killing teachers. You do not know? Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: In the examination hall the police is there, and if the guard detects, "Oh, you are taking notes from books," then he will be killed. So many teachers have been killed. Indian man (3): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Police, under police they are. I saw in Delhi. One school I went, and the police is there, examination room, but all thieves, rascals. And they are sitting in examination for passing, all rascals. Dr. Patel: The modern education has become a farce in that dress. Prabhupāda: Farce, yes. No education. Amongst the Marwaris, the respectable gentlemen, they don't send. They keep private teachers, paṇḍitas, for learning Sanskrit, English. They know that our, "My boy hasn't got to earn money. He has to sit here. That's all. Why he should be spoiled?" They know very well, "We can purchase these technologists." Indian man (3): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Everything farce. There is no education. Indian man (3): (Hindi) *Dr. Patel: In our time we had so much respect for our teachers and what love teachers had for us. One of my teachers in the school retired some time back and then... [break] They wanted to give him 65,000 rupees because he was a seventy*-five years. And when we collected from the old students it came to more than six lakhs of rupees. That was the love of the old students for the teacher in those days. Now it is this. Prabhupāda: [break] ...infection and disinfection also, but you don't take to disinfection. That is our... Here is disinfection, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Who is going to take it? They will prefer to be infected. [break] ...respectable person will send their children to gurukula. They don't want. I tried in the beginning. It was a failure. They don't want. Just like Prahlāda and Hiraṇyakaśipu. What is the trouble? The Prahlāda was devotee, and his father did not like him, that "Why you should be devotee? You become politician, diplomat." That is the difficulty, that nowadays everyone is Hiraṇyakaśipu, and he wants that his son should be diplomat, politician, black market and... What is the use of this Prahlāda? That is going on, especially in India. [break] Hiraṇyakaśipu, he'll never like to see his son Prahlāda. And our system is to make Prahlāda. So nobody will like it. Brahmānanda: They had a gurukula here at Hare Kṛṣṇa Land. Isn't it? And many of the children of the tenants were coming, and they were wearing tilaka. And then they would go home and tell their parents not to eat meat and so on, and the parents became very angry and took their children back. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...Hiraṇyakaśipu education, then it is filled up immediately. And if you introduce Prahlāda education*-vacant. [break] Hm? (laughs) [break] ...meet me at night, all you. [break] Who are living? Girirāja: Our men? One room is for the school, and Yaśomat... Indian man (4): School, gurukula school. Girirāja: The children. Then Yaśomatīnandana's wife was staying there, and Bilvamaṅgala and his wife used to stay there. Prabhupāda: Who? Girirāja: One Bilvamaṅgala and his wife used to stay there. So they've left. And Nayanābhirāma and his wife used to stay there and they have left. So actually it could be emptied. Prabhupāda: But I saw yesterday someone living there. Girirāja: Well, Yaśomatīnandana's wife is gone. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yesterday. Prabhupāda: No, there is some Indian woman. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You saw her yesterday? Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: Well, that's probably Bilvamaṅgala's wife before they moved. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...modern, that the earth comes in front of the moon or the sun and then there is eclipse. Do they not? Dr. Patel: They, all the scientists also say the same thing, sir. When it comes in the straight line the eclipse... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I am saying, repeating their word. But why, then, eclipse takes place irregularly? Dr. Patel: This is a question of simple harmonic motions according to the scientists here who explain it. The simple harmonic motion principle is that several motions are, I mean, going, gathered at a time. Then all of them come together. Then you see that thing occurs. Prabhupāda: No... Dr. Patel: So that motions are different. The different timings come. Prabhupāda: But that means they do not know actually the motions. Dr. Patel: And the old astrologers and scientists of India, they have planned it perfectly, when it comes out. Prabhupāda: Our śāstra says that it is Rahu's attack. So attack does not come regularly. Dr. Patel: That you may call allegorically. Prabhupāda: One... Suppose you have got enemy. You are not going to attack regularly, but when there is some opportunity you go to attack. Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Dr. Patel: Are we not observing this eclipse rituals, that, during the eclipse we stop aratis and all of this... Prabhupāda: Why? Dr. Patel: And after the eclipse is over, take bath and then do the arati? Prabhupāda: Yes, they take bath. Dr. Patel: Even the other Vaiṣṇava mandirs don't do arati during that period if it comes within that... Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Some sort of cosmic disturbances must be occuring in the cosmos during this period of gṛhana(?) or eclipse. We do not know, the modern science. Some movement must be happening. Prabhupāda: Yes. Our śāstra says it is attack by Rahu. Rahu... Dr. Patel: Rahu means...The other side of the earth's shadow is Rahu, as we say. The modern scientists, the Rahu means other side of the shadow. When the sun shines on the earth, the other side of the earth is, I mean, the night and the shadow of the earth is long, drawn up in the cosmos. And in the view of that shadow, if moon comes, then it is caught by the shadow. Prabhupāda: No, in the... Rahu, Rahu... Rahu comes in front... Dr. Patel: That is... The shadow is the Rahu. What else could be? That shadow of earth in the cosmos is the Rahu, most probably to me, because when the moon... Generally moon does not come so very often therein in the purview of that shadow. When it comes, it gets eclipsed. Prabhupāda: No, no. They give that the earth comes in front of the sun or the moon, therefore the shadow. Dr. Patel: Earth comes in front of the sun. Then it becomes sun eclipse. Prabhupāda: Yes. So, but why, if the movement is regular, then the earth come regularly. Dr. Patel: But there are several movements also. The movement of the earth, sun, and moon. Prabhupāda: That means again escaping. Dr. Patel: All harmonic motions... Devotee (5): Many shooting stars... Dr. Patel: Things should be thought scientifically. Prabhupāda: What is the scientifically if you cannot say how many movements are there? Dr. Patel: All the movements that the heavenly stars and other things are going on in a particular way. Prabhupāda: No, you do not know what are the movements. You therefore say there are several movements, but you do not know what are these movements. That is not scientific. To avoid the explanation, if the scientist says that there are several movements... But you explain what is that movement? According to our śāstra there is no individual movement. The whole system is moving, making center the polestar. That we can see at night. They have... Star and planet, they have no separate movement. They are fixed up. Just like this tree. There are so many leaves. The tree is moving, so the leaves and twigs, they are moving, not that the leaf is moving. Dr. Patel: This is a question of relativity, sir. Prabhupāda: Yes. But that we can see, this... Dr. Patel: Now, the earth moves round the sun and the moon moves round the earth... Prabhupāda: No, no... Dr. Patel: And the rate of movement is different on either side. And the axis or ground on which it moves also differs. So when all of them collide or sort of a thing, then eclipse comes. That is the modern understanding. Prabhupāda: And the... When Brahmānanda was speaking that word yesterday, I refuted your argument? Brahmānanda: You were asking, "Why is it Sunday, Monday..." So I explained that the sun is the center of the universe; therefore the sun comes first. Dr. Patel: No, various suns are there. All the stars are the suns of various universes. Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept that. No. Sun is one. Dr. Patel: That is the fundamental difference of opinion that we don't go ahead of it, sir. Prabhupāda: No, why shall I go according to the dictation of the rascals? We are not so rascal. Dr. Patel: And now we are define who is a rascal. Prabhupāda: No, rascal is meant, who has no authority. They are changing every day. They are changing. We don't change. These rascals are changing... Dr. Patel: These fundamentals, sir, cannot be changed. Prabhupāda: In nineteenth century one theory and twentieth century another theory and then another theory, another theory. This is going on. Dr. Patel: The truth is not changed but... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, they are changing. You see here... You have not seen that, our Svarūpa Dāmodara's book? He has given: simply changing, simply changing, these rascals. Changing means rascal. He does not know. "It is this. It is this." Another man, "No, no, it is not this. It is this." Therefore all of them rascals. Dr. Patel: About this Kakubh Kapoor Cakra(?), our scientist, Mihila(?), has planned it, and according to the eclipse and sun and the moon eclipse come. That means his science was perfect. Otherwise it would not come at that particular day, time, and... Prabhupāda: We... Our... Five thousand years ago Śukadeva Gosvāmī said that "As I have heard it, I am explaining." That means time immemorial, the thing is, same thing is coming. There is no change, not that after few days, "No, no. It was wrong. This is now right." Again somebody comes. Dr. Patel: They are explaining the truth in their own way. That is the change of theory. But the truth is the same. Prabhupāda: That is the truth of rascaldom, as soon as you change your position. Dr. Patel: Theory is rascal, but the truth is never rascal. Prabhupāda: No, no, truth you do not know. Therefore rascaldom. Dr. Patel: They do not know how to explain. Truth is there, sir. Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyway, he does not know. Therefore he is a rascal, either you say this way or that way. Dr. Patel: Truth is there. Prabhupāda: No, no, truth is there, but they cannot present the truth rightly. That is rascaldom. Truth is there; that is certain. But they cannot present the truth in right way. Dr. Patel: You mean they are groping in the dark. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is rascal. How things are happening*-every ten years they are changing their theory. And that has been explained by, not by a layman like me. The Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, he has explained. He has concluded Darwin's theory completely wrong. You have read that small booklet? Dr. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: And he has given reason, quotation, how simply he's speculator. Dr. Patel: As a matter of, sir, the whole cosmos is full of, I mean, intelligence. That is God. But then that intelligence is struck in different way to the, what you call the mind, which is embedded in the matter. So, I mean, each one explains it in his own way, as he understands... Prabhupāda: No, no. You cannot explain truth in your own way. Dr. Patel: The whole truth nobody knows and sees. Even our śāstra says. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Things which one does not know, he should not try to cheat others by placing some untruth. Dr. Patel: It is like five blind men seeing an elephant. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you should not give the conclusion that "Elephant is like..." Dr. Patel: Then we don't accept... It is very difficult to know the whole truth by any one of us. *Prabhupāda: No. Therefore our process is upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva*-darśinaḥ. One has seen the truth. Not these rascals. Tattva-darśinaḥ. Darśinaḥ means who has actually seen. There is no change. The advice is tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]. These are the quotes. Upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. Not that theoretical. Tattva-darśinaḥ. You have to go there. Then you will get knowledge. A blind man goes to another blind man. What is the profit? No profit. *Dr. Patel: Andhena andha*-niyataḥ.(?) Prabhupāda: Ah. Andha yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. A blind man must go to a man who has got eyes, who has seen. Then that is right knowledge. Now we are presenting this book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Let anyone come and challenge. Let anyone come. We have got many scientists. They will talk. What is the value of speculation? Dr. Patel: I think some scientists have talked nonsense before you, so you are... (laughs) All scientists are not like that, sir. (end) Morning Walk -- November 18, 1975, Bombay Dr. Patel: It came to my mind today. Prabhupāda: This is beginning of knowledge. Everyone is thinking that he is independent. But completely under the control of prakṛti. *Dr. Patel: [break] ...avyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena sevate, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Then brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham amṛtasyāvyayasya ca. Prabhupāda: Where is the entrance? Here? This side? Saurabha: This will be, there. This will be the entrance. Prabhupāda: A small door? Saurabha: No, no. This three big space, about seven feet, seven feet, seven feet. There's three openings. Prabhupāda: [break] Scientists, do they accept this prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]? Dr. Patel: I think many of those wise people do accept. But you have been harsh to all and none, all of them at par. But so many of them are really intelligent people who accept... Because we can't do so many things. Practically nothing we can do. Because we find out something here and there does not mean that we are perfect in knowledge. But the scientists nowadays are different than what the scientists were in those days when you were a student. And you think we are just like that. We are different today. He's a scientist. He will tell you. The scientists do see... Scientists do, does the darśana of God in every part of the science, in every cell of living cell, every atom. Prabhupāda: No. What was the report? Brahmānanda: Of the books? Prabhupāda: No. The report, speak to him, that science... Brahmānanda: The reporter? Scientist? Prabhupāda: Scientist. Girirāja: Oh, yes. Dr. Patel: Few scientists may be like that. That does not mean all scientists are like that. We are here. Half a dozen of us are scientists, aren't we here? Prabhupāda: No, no. Suppose you are a scientist, I am scientist, so if you do not believe in God, I believe in God... Dr. Patel: How can I not believe in God? Prabhupāda: No, no. You say some of the scientists. Dr. Patel: No, somebody else does not believe in God. Don't put me there. (laughter) He does not believe in God. Suppose he does not believe in God. (laughter) It is impossible for me not to believe in God, how much I may try even in my dream. It is impossible. *Prabhupāda: No, I am speaking not you but a scientist, so*-called scientist. So what did he say? That "There is no need of God"? Girirāja: Yes. He said, "We don't know where the elements came from that made the creation, but we know that we don't require God to explain it." *Prabhupāda: This is the reply. All the so*-called scientists, their only point is how to deny the existence of God. Dr. Patel: But how can you say, "All the scientists," sir? I strongly oppose this statement. Giriraj: I have spoken to many... Dr. Patel: I mean, all scientists Prabhupāda: Majority. Dr. Patel: Some of them. Girirāja: I have spoken to many students coming out of the Indian schools, and they all say that "The universe was created by a chunk and it exploded," and they have no training that God is there behind everything that you see. Dr. Patel: Everything is occuring by explosions. In our mind an explosion occurs, and we start believing in God. So that is not that, sir. I think they are misguided. How can anything happen without a supreme power? Prabhupāda: If they are misguided, how they are scientists? Dr. Patel: But we have all learned in the same schools of science, he, I and the rest, also scientists, here. We have learned the same way the science. But it all depends upon how he grasps it, how he thinks about it, how he understands it. *Prabhupāda: So that we can understand, that he is grasping like a fool. Therefore we call them "fools, rascals." There was a newspaper interview with a so*-called scientist. *Dr. Patel: The great*-grandfather of modern science, Einstein, did he not believe in God? He made darśana of God everywhere. Even in explosion of atom he saw it. Even in his theory of relativity, he finally said it was wrong. "All things are relative to God." That is what he said. And I don't think there is a greater scientist than Einstein in the modern times. Prabhupāda: There are some scientists... Dr. Patel: If other fellows say any damn thing, that does not mean... Even though he may be a Nobel Prize winner, that does not mean that he is really a true scientist. He may be all right. He is looking through a long narrow tube in his own subject, a specialist. I have my definition about a specialist is a one who sees through long narrow tube and he got this much vision of the horizon. Such a man may be saying like this to you. I don't think we should deride that science... Scientists are trying to approach God through their own way, sir. That is what I think. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Dr. Patel: That doesn't matter if you call them "rascal" or no rascal, but that is their way. That's all. Our way is this; their way may be that. We must not... By many... Prabhupāda: No, no. God says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. Dr. Patel: That's right. Prabhupāda: How you can manufacture your own way? That is rascal. Dr. Patel: But that is their bhakti. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. That... Dr. Patel: How can you say that? You may call them "rascal." Doesn't matter to them. But then that is their way, sir. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes... That is obstinacy. Dr. Patel: That... Obstinacy or no obstinacy, that is their way. That's all. Truth has to be understood. Prabhupāda: You cannot understand God in your own way. That is not possible. Everyone is... *Dr. Patel: "Those also come to Me," avidhi*-pūrvakam. Avidhi-pūrvakam. Prabhupāda: Avidhi means rascaldom. Dr. Patel: You may call them rascal or rogue or... Prabhupāda: No, no. Avidhi, avidhi... Dr. Patel: But they are going to the same place. Prabhupāda: You are a medical man. If somebody is doing wrongly, you must say it is a rascaldom. Yes. You cannot accept, "Oh, you are all right. You are all right. You are doing in your own way." (laughter) He's another rascal. Dr. Patel: Yes, that's right, sir. Prabhupāda: That's right? You are a medical man and you'll, you'll...? Dr. Patel: Still I say... You'll hear. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, I cannot hear this. Dr. Patel: You see, we don't understand the working of those people in Africa, those junglis. But they do some... Prabhupāda: But you are not a junglis; you are a medical man, sir. Dr. Patel: Please listen to me. I beseech you to hear me for a minute. They do some things which we cannot explain, and we do by their own ways. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Dr. Patel: The scientists know it. Prabhupāda: As soon as you do in your own way, that is rascaldom. Dr. Patel: Then we are rascals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I am representative to all the rascals of the world here. (laughs) That way, if you say so. *Prabhupāda: Anything which is really scientific, you cannot do in your own way. Two plus two equal to four is applicable everywhere. You cannot say, "Two plus two equal to five. It is my own way." This is rascaldom. Scientific means "two plus two*-four." It is accepted everywhere. You cannot say, "Two plus two equal to three. That is my own way." Dr. Patel: So many phenomenas which are... Prabhupāda: No, no. This is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. Dr. Patel: We are not able to explaining... Prabhupāda: Scientific means there cannot be two opinions. The same, that is scientific. Dr. Patel: Aren't there multiple ways of approaching the same truth? One may be more straight. Bhakti may be more straight, according to us, but... Prabhupāda: No, no. But we are... Truth is one. Truth is one. You cannot say that "I have got my own way of understanding truth." That is not possible. Dr. Patel: Well, then I honestly have a little difference, and that is that truth is one point and we want to approach it. You go staight, directly. Yours is the shortest cut. I may be a fool, or a what you call, mūḍha... Prabhupāda: So how you can remain...? If you are fool, how you can become a scientist? Dr. Patel: But our science is taught to us, that's all. You may say anything about it, but that is what... Prabhupāda: If you say, "My scientific way is foolish way..." Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. Mine is foolish way, according to you. But according to you... Just be very wise. What is truth only God knows. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is going on. That is your science. Dr. Patel: What is truth, God knows. *Prabhupāda: Everyone is... A dog is also thinking that he is very intelligent. That is going on all over the world. Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā. That is rascaldom. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. "Oh, I am all right. I am going on my own way." That is rascaldom. That we say, rascaldom. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. This is rascal... Vimūḍhātmā means rascaldom. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. That is rascaldom. Dr. Patel: But the real scientists don't say this, that they are karta. That is the difference in the modern scientists and the little, hundred years back scientists. Prabhupāda: Here the scientists says, "There is no need of God." Dr. Patel: That one man told you, and you have been, I mean, deriding all the scientists. Prabhupāda: No, no, mostly they are speaking that way. Dr. Patel: You are very harsh to the scientists. Prabhupāda: But they have created havoc, godlessness, atheism, all over the world. That is our protest. Dr. Patel: And we are taking the benefit of that science by flying by the plane, by going by train... Prabhupāda: It has become a difficult task. Dr. Patel: ...by putting on these clothes, and so many things. Prabhupāda: Just like the students, they say... What do they say? The students? Girirāja: That in the beginning there was a chunk, and it exploded, and there's no God. Prabhupāda: How they are spoiling the career. Whole life is spoiled. They are being taught in this way. Andha yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. This is going on, schools, colleges: "Don't believe in God." That has become a fashion, advancement. Yes. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: But all are not like that. Indian man (1): Not all, but some. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Not some, ninety percent. Dr. Patel: Some of the fools like him may be thinking like that. I have been right from the... I was born in science and I never thought that there was no God. Prabhupāda: No, no, you... Dr. Patel: Do you call me an exception? Prabhupāda: I know that. I know. I know you. Indian man (1): (Hindi) Dr. Patel: No, no, but I am one of the scientists. He is one of the scientists. He has put on these clothes and... Prabhupāda: But you are supporting the rascal. (laughter) Dr. Patel: No, but, I don't support a rascal. My explanations are... I strongly... Prabhupāda: No, no, you say that "He is trying to understand in his own way." *Dr. Patel: No, that's right. Now, this point, you go straight. I go this way if I am a mūḍha, but I go there. That's all right. I'm a mūḍha. You may call me a fool. I don't mind it. But that is my way, and I am adamant about it. You may call me ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā kartāham... [Bg. 3.27]. But he is not calling himself a karta. He goes his own way. That's all. I am sorry to say these words to you, but this is what they think. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. That is... Dr. Patel: (laughs) Call them if you like. Those were the rascals before. Some of them are rascals before. Even then... Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not... I am not trying, but Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says, "mūḍha." Kṛṣṇa says, "mūḍha." Yaśomatīnandana: I was a rascal until I met Prabhupāda. Dr. Patel: You are now not a rascal. I have been watching you. Thing is this, that there are multiple ways of God. We don't know the greatness of God. We just... I feel aghast in thinking about greatness of God, simply. Prabhupāda: There is no multiple ways. That is... Dr. Patel: There may be any number of ways, but I feel that there is what greatness of God. That's all. Prabhupāda: That is... We protest. There is no many number. There is only one. Dr. Patel: That depends on his own way. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Dr. Patel: But you must be benevolent to these people, at least to an extent, to the scientists, that all scientists are wrong, are they? All scientists are not gadhas. Some of them are good (Hindi) and some of them evolve into man even. Prabhupāda: But we say... If somebody says that "I have got my own way to understand," he is not scientist. Dr. Patel: Their own way, a section of humanity's way. Not one man's. Science... Prabhupāda: There cannot be many ways. *Dr. Patel: You see, our sad*-darśana. The Vaiśeṣika śāstra is nothing but the modern science. The Vaiśeṣikas also wanted, were going in search of God by their own way, were they not? The Vaiśeṣika śāstra is nothing but the physics and chemistry and mathematics, in true sense. (Hindi) Sad-darśana. Vaiśeṣika is one of the recognized darśanas of our ancient, glorious past. I think I am not wrong, sir, in that way. You will pardon me if I say, and I mean, press my point further. Prabhupāda: No, you will say it is in your own way, even if it is wrong... Dr. Patel: No, no. These are Vaiśeṣikas. They are Vaisesikas. Sudras you may call them, but Vaiśeṣika-śāstra was also found out by ancient civilized Indians in search of God. Prabhupāda: No... Dr. Patel: And the physics, chemistry, biology, science... Prabhupāda: Rāvaṇa was the greatest civilized man, but he is considered as rākṣasa. Dr. Patel: But we are not Rāvaṇas, are we? We are Vaiśeṣikas. Prabhupāda: No, anyone. Dr. Patel: We are scientists, Vaiśeṣika scientists. We may not be bhakta scientists, but Vaiśeṣika scientists. Prabhupāda: Bhakta is the only scientist. All others rascals. Dr. Patel: That you may say, but, well... We are also bhakta. *Prabhupāda: That we don't say. Kṛṣṇa says, māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Dr. Patel: But who? Those who are not... Prabhupāda: These rascals. All these rascals. Dr. Patel: Those who are not in search of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: One who has not understood Kṛṣṇa, they are all māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. He may be Vaiśeṣika, kanaḍa, paramānuvada, māyāvāda. There are so... I know these. Dr. Patel: Māyāvāda and these are all... Prabhupāda: They different, different philosophies. Dr. Patel: Vaiśeṣika is one of the six sciences, just like... Prabhupāda: No, māyāvāda is also one of them. Dr. Patel: Māyāvāda does not belong to one of the six sciences, do they? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kanaḍa, Gautama, Astavakra, then nāstika Kapila. There are so many. Yaśomatīnandana: Patañjali. Prabhupāda: Patañjali, yes. *Dr. Patel: Patañjali yoga is also... He said, iśvaraḥ pari danaiva. (?) Doesn't he say in the rāja*-yoga sutra that... Prabhupāda: He is suggesting, but he has no clear idea. *Dr. Patel: He definitely has said in thirty*-fourth sutra, īśvaraḥ pari danaiva: "If you can't vacate your mind, put God inside." iśvaraḥ pari danaiva. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Holiday Inn Hotel? [break] Yaśomatīnandana: ...accept God. But if they do accept God, then none of their activity shows it. They're constantly trying to disprove God. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? This boy wants to go in gurukula school. Prabhupāda: Very good. *Jayapataka: In your prayer we say, pāścātya*-deśa-tāriṇe. But now don't you think we could say "viśva"? (Prabhupāda chuckles) I think that there's no place... You've not only covered Western world but practically whole world. Prabhupāda: I say that because my Guru Mahārāja appointed me for that purpose. [break] Jayapataka: There was a group of reporters who went to see the district magistrate, and they were asking him, taking interview about so many different things. So finally they kept asking about ISKCON because of our Māyāpura center. So he said, "Well, I can't say anything about that. I can't say..." Finally one reporter asked another very direct question about their staying here, this, that. And he said, "I have order from Indira Gandhi that the officers, that maṭha gaṁrami na.(?) No one, officer, should worry about ISKCON. You just do your own thing. So I can say nothing about them. I have got no authority to say anything about them. We've got this order from Indira Gandhi." Then the reporter said, "Oh, we can print that?" He said, "Please don't print that. Otherwise I will lose my job." So when the local Congress people heard that, they were very happy, our friends. So I think your visit did a great benefit. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Jayapataka: I brought the letter that the district magistrate gave, recommending... Prabhupāda: I think, therefore, they are giving this concession, two years. Jayapataka: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: [break] ...said that "Don't bother about ISKCON." Jayapataka: Yes. In Bengali they were talking, maṭha gaṁrami na.(?) Prabhupāda: [break] ...you said somebody is coming? Girirāja: Oh, the Mahārāja of Udaipur. Prabhupāda: Ah. So? Girirāja: I have to call him at nine o'clock and ask him to come earlier. Prabhupāda: No. You have already appointed time, you said. Girirāja: No, he suggested eleven, and I said I would ask you and ring him back at nine. Prabhupāda: So the interview, you suggested or he suggested? Girirāja: Mr.... Prabhupāda: Udaipur. Girirāja: He suggested. We suggested having a program at his house. So then he suggested that he wanted to meet you. Prabhupāda: That's nice. *Jayapataka: [break]...now all the Caitanya*-caritāmṛtas are printed. Prabhupāda: You have got all? *Jayapataka: No. I only have first, Ādi*-līlā. *Prabhupāda: So, you haven't got here? No? So they want book. So they are not dispatching Caitanya*-caritāmṛta? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They haven't dispatched latter volumes. They've done the first few but not the new ones which have come. But he is sending some for your room, to have a complete set in each of your rooms. Prabhupāda: No, no. It should be exhibited in Māyāpura, especially. Jayapataka: It would be nice to have a big book display, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately ask them to dispatch to Māyāpura all books for demonstration. That is the main item, and they have not sent in Māyāpura? Caitanya? *Girirāja: Well, other than the Ādi*-līlā, the later volumes only came within about a few days ago. Prabhupāda: No, no. In māyāpura all the books should be displayed. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. We'll get a complete set for display also. *Prabhupāda: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta especially, it should be displayed in Māyāpura. Immediately ask to send to Māyāpura. And whatever books you have got already, you send them immediately. You select what books you want. Harer nama harer nama [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: [break]...from Hong Kong yesterday, and there's one Chinese producer who's making a Chinese movie and he wants our devotees to be in it for some time. Prabhupāda: To make some money out of all... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It shows how a girl is going to different spiritual gurus for guidance. So they are sending the script first for approval. Prabhupāda: All right. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're going to show how Vaiṣṇavas live. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Devananda feels that will give us a lot of publicity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapataka: In Los Angeles they paid good money. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayapataka: In Los Angeles they went in some movies. They got two, three thousand dollars. [break] ...buy kilos when they're that big. So many of them. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That will keep the water clean. Jayapataka: Yes. Prabhupāda: But be careful that these rascals may not come and throw out(?), the Mohammedans. Jayapataka: [break] ... is growing on the water. And in the hot days they go in there. Prabhupāda: No. That should be cleaned away. Jayapataka: Taken off. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can eat it, kalmisan(?). It is very nice. Jayapataka: Yes. We eat that. We shouldn't let it grow in the pukkur? It's growing in one little corner of the pukkur. Prabhupāda: So that should be cleansed and taken, and the śak can be eaten. (end) Morning Walk -- November 19, 1975, Bombay Dr. Patel: You understand it; others don't. But they have got to. Prabhupāda: [break] ...is saṁpatti... [break] Devotee: Today they're going to put the steel on the second floor, and tomorrow they're supposed to start casting. Prabhupāda: That "tomorrow" is daily put. Every day it is put "tomorrow." [break] Devotee (1): ...of Śrīla Prabhupāda. Dr. Patel: You have spread the steel on. Devotee (1): The steel is now in? Brahmānanda: The steel is there? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They put it in yesterday. Devotee (1): They'll be casting most of the floor today. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Devotee (1): Every fourteen days we'll cast a new floor. [break] Prabhupāda: ...the week days are set up. Dr. Patel: We have our own information. Prabhupāda: What is that? Dr. Patel: (laughs) You see, there is a little difference... Prabhupāda: Sunday, Monday. Dr. Patel: Yes, Sunday, the sun is the center, and I mean, that is, I recall, first sun, and then Monday is next day, then Tuesday, which is next to the earth, and Wednesday next to the sun. Prabhupāda: Then sun is first, then moon. But they say moon is first, then sun. Dr. Patel: Who says? Prabhupāda: The scientists. Dr. Patel: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. They say the moon is... Dr. Patel: So far the distance is concerned, moon may be nearest. Prabhupāda: How it is, that? Dr. Patel: It is so, sir. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Patel: Our science says so. Your science may not. And we don't want to clash the sciences here. Let us talk about philosophy. Prabhupāda: You science... (laughs) Jump over. Dr. Patel: Chandra is the upagraha, isn't it? As guru has got many such grahas. Prabhupāda: It is one of the celestial planets. And they say there is no life. *Dr. Patel: It is not self*-luminous. All grahas are not self-luminous. When we observe in the sky, those stars are bleeping like this. The grahas are straight as that, the Sukra behind us, just steady light. Prabhupāda: [break] ...philosophy is also incorrect, there is no life after death. Dr. Patel: Who says so? Prabhupāda: Oh, so many, all Westerners. Dr. Patel: The Easterns... That does not mean... The Eastern philosophy is only with the jāgrati stage. But the jīva has got three stages, and the fourth stage, the turīya stage, is the real stage that we understand. They don't have idea of it, unfortunately. So that philosophy is not the real philosophy of life. Life as a whole should have its own philosophy. They don't understand that there is anything beyond the jāgrati stage. But then there is a svapna stage, there is a sleep stage and the turīya stage. In that if I am wrong you may correct me, sir. Prabhupāda: You cannot be corrected. Dr. Patel: I cannot be wrong, say that. Prabhupāda: No, I cannot correct you. Dr. Patel: You? You cannot be correct...? Why I should not be corrected? Because the philosophy must encompass the whole life, not a part of it. All Western philosophers, only except Schopenhauer and Eckhart, they only thought about the waking stage. They have never thought about the dream and the deep sleep stage and the stage beyond the three. None of them, excepting Eckhart of Germany. So the Western philosophers are all wrong or partially true. [break] The Western philosophers have never thought about the three other stages, none of them. Prabhupāda: [break] ...philosophy rejects any philosophy based on thinking. Dr. Patel: But you see thinking is an apparatus which takes you beyond thinking. Prabhupāda: That is another. Dr. Patel: That takes you beyond thinking. You cannot go beyond thinking without thinking to be taken as a fact. Prabhupāda: But thinking must be intelligent thinking. Dr. Patel: But thinking is always... Prabhupāda: Foolish thinking has no value. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhya para mana manasas tu parā buddhir [Bg. 3.42]. So thinking should be under the direction of intelligence. *Dr. Patel: Buddhi, buddhimān, and ahaṅkāra, all are the internal apparatus, what you call antaḥ*-kāraṇa. They work together in reason. One thing does not act separately from the other, as we know. Prabhupāda: There are separate arrangement, although they are one. Dr. Patel: They are the different facets of the same internal organ as a whole. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...set is there, but beyond that mental stage there is intellect. Beyond intellect there is soul. Dr. Patel: To go beyond intellect for a body conscious ego, the ego must dissolve and find itself to be a jīva, and then he travels further up to find his own identity and his own relation with God. Before, I mean, mind is one, you cannot go beyond it. That is what my conjecture. I may be wrong for all that. *Prabhupāda: No, no. One has to go beyond the mind, but one, those who are stuck up with the mind, they are useless. So the Western philosophers, they are stuck up with the mind. That is the defect. [break] ...bhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. Manorathena, mental concoction, asataḥ. Western philosophers, they take the mind as the soul. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Hm? Dr. Patel: Yes. And the Communists think even the matter is more important than the mind. What do you call? Dialectical materialism, that the matter produces consciousness. It is not the consciousness which, I mean, collects matter around it. That is their philosophy. That is this dialectical materialism. They are absolutely wrong. They are even further down than the Western philosophers, mental philosophers. *Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...is already mentioned in Bhagavad*-gītā. Dr. Patel: Buddhi tu... Paraṁ buddhva? What is called, that...? Saṁsthābhyam ātmāna? That mind has to... I mean, isn't it out for itself that it is false? That comes to that. Prabhupāda: Not false. Dr. Patel: I mean false so far as higher category is concerned, the jīva. Prabhupāda: Nothing is false, but there are different steps. One step is important than the other, but they are not false. Just like the water, the sand, then earth, then the building. You cannot construct a building here. So these are different stages of reality. Jaya. So how many places you have arranged? Devotee (2): Program? Well, I have arranged two so far. At least, tentatively, Mr. Patel and Mr. Tarachand Gupta. Prabhupāda: Tarachand Gupta is also member? Devotee (2): Yes, he has taken a room. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): He has a big, a giant bungalow on Altamount Road on Malabar Hill. Prabhupāda: He knows me. Devotee (2): I think so. [break] Prabhupāda: ...going to the West, and I was collecting some money, this gentleman gave me five hundred rupees. Devotee (2): Tarachand Gupta. Really? He makes trains, train cars. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? He has got factory? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: A good business. Devotee (2): Yes. Brahmānanda: Where is the factory? Devotee (2): It's outside of Bombay. Prabhupāda: [break] ...at his home, Deity. Devotee (2): I don't think so. I haven't seen it, anyway. *Prabhupāda: No, I went to his house. He worships Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity. Harikesa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Huh? You know it? Harikesa: Yes, very well. The grandfather there does the worship, the old man. Prabhupāda: Oh. He is Tarachand Gupta, the old man. Harikesa: No. There is one older man, or there was. Prabhupāda: So what is the old man's name? Devotee (2): I don't know. I haven't seen either the old man or the Deity. Prabhupāda: Who is Tarachand Gupta? He is young man? *Devotee (2): A middle*-aged man, about fifty-five, sixty. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikesa: Śrīdhara is the only one who's ever gotten money out of Tarachand Gupta. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikesa: No one else has ever been able to get money out of Tarachand Gupta but Śrīdhara. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? And before him, I got some money. He gave me five hundred rupees long ago, means before going to United States. Devotee (2): Girirāja made him a life member. Prabhupāda: No, he appears to be good man. Yes. One day he met me at Hanging Garden, and he requested me that "One day you have to come to my house." Girirāja: I remember. When we were at Akash Ganga, it was almost fixed up with Madhudviṣa Swami, but something... Prabhupāda: So when you go to the bank, I have got some money you can take. [break] What is called? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Wagons. Prabhupāda: Wagons he makes? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Wagons or bogies? Harikesa: Freight cars. Devotee (2): He makes the freight cars. Prabhupāda: Freight cars. That means wagon. [break] The bogies are made by railway company by themselves. It is called bogies? Girirāja: Yes, passenger car. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Man: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Brahmānanda: [break] He makes railway cars in Bharatpur. Prabhupāda: Huh? Where? Bharatpur? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is in Calcutta. Brahmānanda: Isn't there a Bharatpur near Agra? Girirāja: Bharatpur. Prabhupāda: Bharatpur. Oh, yes. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: India exports to Africa and Middle East countries. Brahmānanda: The bogies. Prabhupāda: How they dispatch? By ship? Brahmānanda: Yes, I think so. I remember reading once, in Tanzania they received twelve bogies. Prabhupāda: Twelve bogies at a time? Brahmānanda: This one shipment. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Jaya. [break] ...has good trade with Africa in so many things. Brahmānanda: Telephones are also made in India. [break] Prabhupāda: ...is taken from the earth. There is no doubt about it. Why the scientists cannot take? This is a fact, that there is aroma, and the flower has taken the aroma from the earth. But why the scientists cannot take? Brahmānanda: They can make chemicals, the flavors. They can make flavors, aromas, from chemicals. Prabhupāda: As good? Brahmānanda: No. (laughter) *Yaśomatī*-nandana: They make a flavor and then say it's a rose flavor. Prabhupāda: That is also not all kinds of flavors. Indian man: (Hindi) *Yaśomatī*-nandana: I think if they want to produce rose flavor they must use the roses somehow or other. I don't think they can just produce. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They use a little bit. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: Yes. They must use. Prabhupāda: They are taking chemicals, making flavor, and the flower is coming out without any chemical. So who is more artist, better artist? Brahmānanda: [break] ...because they will wilt and die. Prabhupāda: Hm? Brahmānanda: These flowers, they will wilt and die, but they can make flowers that will not die, will not wilt. (laughter) Of course, they have no smell. Prabhupāda: Therefore they make without smell. [break] ...earth is this side and moon is this side, then which is first? Both of them are both sides. Brahmānanda: Yes. The sun is larger in the sky, so that means it is nearer to the earth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Should be. Because you calculate about the stars, very, very far away. Is it not? Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Then which is smaller is far away. [break] *Yaśomat*-nandana: ...systems are bigger than the smaller ones? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Yaśomatī*-nandana: The upper planetary systems, are they bigger than the lower ones? In other words, sun is bigger than the earth, the moon is bigger... Prabhupāda: Yes, there is measurement. [break] Jayapataka: Some people say that "You are coming to India for preaching, but we Indians, we already know all the, about Kṛṣṇa and Rāma. Why don't... You should be preaching in the West, where the people don't know." Prabhupāda: But you know from the Western people. They are not... They are imitating Western people. You know from the Western people; therefore you have to learn from this Western people this also. Brahmānanda: They are learning everything else from the Western people, so why not... Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara: Everyone in India knows the līlā of Kṛṣṇa, but the science of Kṛṣṇa, that they have forgotten. Prabhupāda: They know līlā of Kṛṣṇa but they do not know Kṛṣṇa. Huh? Who was...? You were telling that Mr. Bajaj, he wants to take the instruction of Kṛṣṇa without Kṛṣṇa. Girirāja: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Then how you will take this instruction when Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]? If they do not take Kṛṣṇa, then how this instruction will be taken? Girirāja: It can't be. *Brahmānanda: Well, rasa*-līlā is more important than those instructions. (Prabhupāda laughs) *Yaśomatī*-nandana: Actually, the real scholars of Bhagavad-gītā, they admit that later on this Bhagavad-gītā came out, which was stressing more on bhakti. Prabhupāda: Later on. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: Later on. These scholars, these mundane scholars, those who have studied Bhagavad-gītā, they accept that Bhagavad-gītā is based around bhakti principle. Prabhupāda: So how it came later on? *Yaśomatī*-nandana: That they are rascal. That they don't. Prabhupāda: And what was the beginning? *Yaśomatī*-nandana: All these Vedas and everything. *Prabhupāda: No, Bhagavad*-gītā? They say, "later on." Brahmānanda: Who was the first... *Yaśomatī*-nandana: He says that it was the Vaisnavites who introduced Bhagavad-gītā. *Prabhupāda: Then why Śaṅkarācārya has accepted Bhagavad*-gītā? He is not a Vaiṣṇava. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: That they cannot answer. Prabhupāda: Then they're foolish. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: That they cannot answer. *Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya has accepted Bhagavad*-gītā. Śaṅkarācārya accepted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord. Sa bhagavān svaya kṛṣṇaḥ. He has written... *Yaśomatī*-nandana: It is like that. They think that Śaṅkarācārya also liked Bhagavad-gītā, but the personal Kṛṣṇa was not very important. Prabhupāda: No. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: According to his bhāṣya, they think like that. *Prabhupāda: No, he has written many prayers on Kṛṣṇa. Bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍhā*-mate. That means those who are not worshiping Govinda, they are mūḍhā-mati. He is addressing mūḍhā-mati: "You rascal..." *Yaśomatī*-nandana: This verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda, vāsudeva sata devam, is also written by him? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Yaśomatī*-nandana: Prabhupāda: Maybe, but I do not know. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: Because they say, these mundane scholars, that Bhāgavata was after Śaṅkarācārya because he did not write a commentary on Bhāgavata. Because there's a mention of Kaṁsa and Cāṇūra and Vasudeva and Devakī, that means that Śaṅkarācārya did believe in the personal of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: But Vedavyāsa is after Śaṅkarācārya? *Yaśomatī*-nandana: They don't accept it is written by Vedavyāsa. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Yaśomatī*-nandana: They don't... They are such atheistic people, they do not accept that it is written by Vedavyāsa. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but others accept it. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: Yes, the vast people do accept. *Prabhupāda: Vedavyāsa is accepted by Śaṅkarācārya. Vyāsadeva. Vyāsa*-guru. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: They think that some Vaiṣṇava wrote it and put the name of Vedavyāsa. They are so demoniac. Prabhupāda: Yes, they say like that. Then other ācāryas, they are also fools? *Yaśomatī*-nandana: I think they place all the other ācāryas after Śaṅkarācārya. *Prabhupāda: Ācāryas... But their paramparā system is very old. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...Bhagavad*-gītā? No. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: They don't accept it as... They do not accept Gītā as spoken by some person Kṛṣṇa five thousand years ago. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, do they accept the authority of Bhagavad*-gītā or not? *Yaśomatī*-nandana: They say it's a very nice book of knowledge. They don't want to pursue spiritual life. Prabhupāda: Then why they become authority? *Yaśomatī*-nandana: Yes, that is their rascaldom. Prabhupāda: If they do not accept authority, why they become authority? Who will accept them? If everything is depending on mental speculation, then why they should be accepted as authority? *Yaśomatī*-nandana: That they cannot answer. Only insincere people, foolish people, they are misled by them. Otherwise I don't think anybody even knows their philosophy. Everyone knows your philosophy because they see your disciples, and no one goes to read their books. Mostly I see in their books, "First edition, copies, two thousand," "three thousand," something like that. And you never see a second edition. *Prabhupāda: [break] Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu for the last twelve years he was lying idle, and this time he went, and people appreciated so much he was giving delete.(?) He is advertising like that. (end) Morning Walk -- November 20, 1975, Bombay (Hindi) Dr. Patel: I must first of all imbibe the spirit of staying here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Patel: I must first of all imbibe the spirit. No? Prabhupāda: You have already. Otherwise how you are coming daily? Dr. Patel: I don't know. I have got some... Prabhupāda: We don't pay you any fee. Dr. Patel: I feel some sort of attachment to you. That is why I come. Prabhupāda: We don't pay you any fees, but why you come here? Dr. Patel: That I don't know. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What do you charge when you go outside? Dr. Patel: I charge, by night, hundred rupees, and day, sixty, fifty, sixty rupees, not much. I don't charge much here. Bombay people charge double than me. You mean you want to charge me? (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, no. Hare Kṛṣṇa. No, I mean to say, you are a professional man, you charge, but why do you come here free unless you have in mind? *Dr. Patel: I don't understand why I am attracted to you specially. I don't understand. I very much thinking, I have been thinking about it. There must be some pūrva*-janma. We may be relatives. I don't know. No sādhu has been able to attract me as much as you have. Not even temples have attracted me, to tell the truth. Yaśomatīnandana: There is no sādhu except Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Dr. Karttika Chandra Bose, he was a very big man. I was, under him, manager of Bose's laboratory. So from the very beginning my father was paying him two rupees fees. But when he became very big, still my father was paying two rupees. He was friend. So he refused to take. "No, no, no, you must be paid something." So he used to accept that two rupees. [break] Yaśomatīnandana: Two rupees in those days were lot of money. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Two rupees, nowadays forty rupees at least. Twenty times. Just like ghee. You can... Ghee or gold. Gold standard. So in our childhood, I have seen our mother used to purchase gold for ornaments*-twenty rupees. Dr. Patel: Eighteen, twenty rupees. Yaśomatīnandana: Now it is six hundred. Six? Dr. Patel: Seven hundred. *Yaśomatīnandana: Thirty*-five times. Dr. Patel: When I was married, gold was at nineteen rupees and fifty paisa. Prabhupāda: No. No, no. Dr. Patel: In 1930. Prabhupāda: Nineteen rupees? Dr. Patel: Nineteen rupees and a half. Prabhupāda: Per tola? Dr. Patel: Per tola. Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. Patel: In 1930. 1930, yes. Indian man (1): Sovereign cost eighteen rupees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because... Dr. Patel: Sovereign was fourteen rupees. Prabhupāda: In our marriage in 1918... Dr. Patel: It was more because the First World War. Then it slumped down. Prabhupāda: It dropped. *Dr. Patel: And the lowest was in 1930. Then it rose. Then in 1935 it was thirty rupees and in 1940 it was thirty*-eight, and 1950 it was fifty rupees. And 1956 we bought at the rate of fifty-six rupees. I still remember that because we have been buying gold every year. *Indian man (2): 1959 or '60 the price was ninety*-six rupees. Dr. Patel: Then suddenly it rose. Now, because Americans are buying gold, the gold standard has been left out. They have taken, cornered the gold of the whole world. But I have heard that the Russians have got some gold mountains on the surface. They can take out gold very easily from there. Here you have to dig up deep down. Prabhupāda: No, in South Africa there is gold. In the city there are so many gold mines in South Africa. Dr. Patel: Yes. South Africa is today supplying more than half of the world gold. Our mines are getting exhausted in Kolar(?) and all this, Mysore State. America, they have not been able to search out gold anywhere. Perhaps in South America they may be having some gold mines, but they have not made any survey. But the Russians, they say there are very huge mountains, gold on the surface. Yaśomatīnandana: Sumeru is made of gold, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: Where is that located? (laughter) Dr. Patel: In your mind. Prabhupāda: No. Where is the sun located now? Yaśomatīnandana: 93,000,000... Prabhupāda: No, no. Sun. Sun. Where is located now? Yaśomatīnandana: Oh, it's out of my sight. Prabhupāda: You cannot see it. Yaśomatīnandana: Sumeru we cannot see. It's not on the earth? Prabhupāda: You can, but you have no eyes. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) I call him also mahārāja. He's a brāhmaṇa. *Yaśomatīnandana: Brahma*-bandhu. Dr. Patel: I don't know whether you are a bandhu or yourself. Well, I call you what I... *Nanda*-kumāra: In South America one man went up the Amazon River and he found a place where he could pick gold nuggets up out of the water. Dr. Patel: Gold nuggets are there in the rivers, so many, in Africa. Prabhupāda: Gold? Dr. Patel: Gold nuggets. Because gold never get, I mean, oxidized. It is always in (unclear). So nuggets, they are available in big rivers even in Africa. Because when they come through the mountain, you know. *Prabhupāda: There is one river in India also, Suvarna*-rekha, between Orissa and Bengal. Dr. Patel: The sand is of the... Prabhupāda: Yes. There you can find gold. Brahmānanda: The city of Johannesburg is built on a gold reef, a reef of gold. There's so much gold there, and to dig it up they will have to break the city streets. They have deliberately built the city on top of the gold. Dr. Patel: That South Africa is in the belt of Brazil more or less. And Brazil is very difficult place to search about this because they are all jungle, no? Brazil and south of Brazil. [break] Prabhupāda: ...Russians do not utilize the gold... Dr. Patel: They think gold has got no value so far as value... Because it is a stamping metal. Otherwise what use it can be made of? So far as the society is concerned, iron is more important than gold, to tell the truth. Prabhupāda: So let them exchange. Dr. Patel: From the utility point of view. Prabhupāda: Let them exchange. We give them iron. (laughter) Let me... Dr. Patel: They don't want to. They may use it at some future date. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Dr. Patel: Karl Marx, Hegel, Engels, all these fellows were more materialist, all those three philosophers. And the philosophy of Karl Marx is the abstract materialism. Brahmānanda: Now one book has been published in Russia, An Appreciation of Nehru. All the... Dr. Patel: He was a Marxist, you see. He went in 1912 to Moscow before the revolution to meet all those fellows. Brahmānanda: This book is stories of different Russian scientists and politicians, philosophers, giving their appreciation of how they knew Nehru and... Prabhupāda: Just to pacify Indira Gandhi. Dr. Patel: Flattering. Brahmānanda: So they've just presented this book. *Yaśomatīnandana: Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ. *Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. Dr. Patel: How they smuggled away the secret of atom smashing from America, these Russians? Prabhupāda: Hm? Dr. Patel: They smuggled away the secret of atom bomb from America. Prabhupāda: The Germans. Dr. Patel: No, the Russians smuggled away. Germans came to America, taking that... Prabhupāda: They understood from the Germans. Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, but it is said that the German scientist ran away to America because they were afraid of Hitler. If Hitler gets the secret of atom, he would bomb out the whole world. Prabhupāda: No, no. Hitler knew it. Dr. Patel: No. They were not able to be successful to... Prabhupāda: No, no. He knew it, everything, but he did not like to do it. He said. He said. He was gentleman. But these people are not gentlemen. He knew it perfectly well. He said that "I can smash the whole world, but I do not use that weapon." The Germans already discovered. But out of humanity they did not use it. And all the, your American, other countries, they have stolen from German ideas. Dr. Patel: I think, sir, German scientists ran away during the wartime to America. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Some of them went to Russia, some of them-(aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa*-to America. Brahmānanda: The German scientists, they went to America. But the plans for these things were left in Germany and the Russians came. The Russians got the plans, the Americans got the scientists. Dr. Patel: I see. So the Russians, I mean, scientists produced from the plan the bomb. Brahmānanda: That's why the Americans got it first, because they had the scientists. Dr. Patel: But that man was caught from America giving away secret to the Russians. He was electrocuted, no? The science does not belong to a single race or a nation. Prabhupāda: No, more scientists were there in Germany. Dr. Patel: They say Germany could produce more scientists because they had all our, our *Vedas* and all our secret ancient books with them, the Sanskrit. They had read them. Prabhupāda: That is also fact. *Dr. Patel: And one Śaṅkarācārya-I don't know which*-who was the professor in one of the colleges of Madras, he went and met Professor Einstein and talked about... And then he gave out some, one śloka of two lines which actually depicted how atoms could be smashed. That is in our sciences. Indian man (2): This is fact? Dr. Patel: Yes, it's a fact. (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: [break] ...ago, there was one Mr. Badhuri in Benares. He was a great astrologer. So he told me that from Benares the Germans have taken three books: one is Akāśa*-patola, one is Kapota-vahi and his Khapoda-vahi. Khapoda-vahi, this airplane. Kha means akasa. And there is another science, kapota-vahi, to carry man by the pigeons. That is not yet displayed. Kapota-vahi. And there is another, Akasa-patola. Any, any, even your chairs you sit down; by mantra it will go on. Dr. Patel: We have in *Mahābhārata*, that, I mean, Bhima threw away those elephants and rowing in the sky. And when Parīkṣit thought "How could it be?" then that elephants came down in the story. That means they were rowing about just like sputniks of today, perhaps. I don't know how they might have... Prabhupāda: No, three books they have taken. They paid some eight lakhs of rupees. That Mr. Badhuri told me. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: That means this civilization must have felt the pangs of the modern sciences and then they must have lost it. No? Prabhupāda: Not lost. It is there. You don't take it. That's it. What is there? One who can read... Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Good boy. Harikesa: They couldn't chant those mantras though, could they? If they tried... Even if they tried, they wouldn't be able to chant the mantras. Prabhupāda: Why? Nobody taught them. You are chanting. How you are chanting? Nobody taught them. That is the difficulty. Jayapataka: Why the Germans are good Sanskrit scholars? Why? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they had very good tendency for learning Sanskrit to know so many things. That was their research. They knew it that in Sanskrit language there are so many wonderful things. Dr. Patel: Now, sir, they say that in American universities also, many universities have started teaching Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Yes. In every school, every college, every university, there is Sanskrit. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] Dr. Patel: ...was the real man who, when he started studying *Vedas*, he realized that in Sanskrit language there is a huge literature of great importance. He spread the things in Germany. No, he was staying in England. Prabhupāda: By international scholars' meeting these diacritic marks were discovered for studying Sanskrit. The diacritic marks which we use, that is international agreement of Sanskrit scholars. Dr. Patel: Yes. Yes. Those marks. A, and a and u and ai and these dots. Yes, that is international. Nobody can claim. That is long back, sir. I think Max Muller's time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: There were so many scholars, even in Paris, Germany, and Italy. Prabhupāda: Professor Roe and Webb, they were professor in Presidency College when we were school children. They admitted Sanskrit is the mother of all languages. *Dr. Patel: In fact, Persian is the first letter of Sanskrit which looks like that. When you study Persian, so many words*-Sanskrit directly taken Persian. In the Russian language, I mean, so many words are there of Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: No, whole world you'll find Sanskrit. The first word, mother and father, that is Sanskrit, matri and pitri. Yaśomatīnandana: Ha, everywhere. Everywhere starts like that, all the languages. Dr. Patel: Jñā, to know, from that, knowledge, jñā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jaya. [break] Brahmānanda: ...mother is "mere" and father is "pere." Prabhupāda: [break] ...is madri? Ba, pha. Brahmānanda: In Spanish, father is "padre." *Dr. Patel: Latin and Sanskrit are more or less common. They have got those sapta*-vibhaktīs in Latin also. Prabhupāda: And this "Christ" has come from Kristo, Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Dr. Patel: The cow from... Gao from cow, and cow from gao. No? It is absolutely not..., so very easy. Prabhupāda: We are Kṛṣṇian, and they are Christian. There is similarity. Dr. Patel: Nomenclature. Christ was really a bhāgavata, I mean, in a true sense. Prabhupāda: Anyone who accepts God, he is bhāgavata. *Dr. Patel: Christ, sir, really taught absolutely bhāgavata*-dharma. The way... All his sayings, the New Testament and his Sermon on Mount, all is absolutely Bhāgavata. I have studied it very, in great detail and compared the two myself. So Christ was the greatest Hindu, to tell the truth. But as those people in the Middle East were heathens and absolutely junglis, they crucified him. Had he been here he would have been a big saint and avatāra. Prabhupāda: Recent history is that he did not die. He came to Kashmir. Dr. Patel: Came to Kashmir. There is a tomb in Kashmir. I read some literature about it. His resurrection... They say that they smuggled him out of that cave. It is possible. When he was on the cross, he... Prabhupāda: No, even by yoga system... Dr. Patel: He must have gone in a trance. Prabhupāda: He lived by trance. Dr. Patel: He was a great devotee. There is no doubt about it. Prabhupāda: By trance. Dr. Patel: When he... On the cross they say he uttered, "Father, don't forsake me." That is the time he went into trance most probably. Eh? He must have gone in trance when he uttered the last words, "Father, don't forsake me." And then when he was brought down in the lap of his mother and they took him in the cave, no? Under the guard of those Italian soldiers. Then there was a big hurricane or something like that and they all ran away. And after that he was smuggled away from that place. Christ has rebuilt his father's temple in true sense, the way he spread the Christianity. The churches have degenerated in his teaching, unfortunately. It is the church. That happens with every, in every, I mean, these things, teachings. Race, this race is very bold, indeed, that God choicest race, these Jews, somehow or other. Prabhupāda: Jews? Dr. Patel: Really, it is God's choicest race. (laughter) They have produced wonderful people right from Christ up to Professor Einstein, very bold people, very bold indeed. They are truthful to their convictions. They would die for their convictions but they will not, I mean, budge an inch. Brahmānanda: But they're impersonalists. Dr. Patel: Very brave. Very brave race. Brahmānanda: They are impersonalists. Dr. Patel: Today still, those people really very brave. Very brave. It is the choicest race from God. It's a fact. Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda is very much pleased. (laughter) Dr. Patel: I don't know who are they, but that is a fact. When you look back to the history, it's the really choicest race. Yaśomatīnandana: Girirāja is also from. Dr. Patel: Whatever he may be. I don't know them, who are they. But historically we look back. They are really very brave people. They have died for the sake of their principle. Never budge an inch. Brahmānanda: But they are impersonalists. Dr. Patel: Impersonalist or personalist is immaterial. (laughter) I mean I talk of boldness, very bold people. Truthful to their conviction. Truthful to their conviction, sir. Prabhupāda: They are so bold that, Shylock? Brahmānanda: Yeah, yeah, the flesh. Dr. Patel: There are Shylocks everywhere. One Shylock does not mean a bad race. And that Shylock is the creation of that poet. Prabhupāda: No, the... In Europe the Jews are treated like that. Dr. Patel: Are there not Shylocks in... Prabhupāda: And they are greatest scientist. Dr. Patel: All the Marwaris, who are they? They are Shylocks. And they give you lot of money and you make them sit first before us, you know. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: I am... Don't say that. [break] Prabhupāda: ...the richest in the world. Dr. Patel: Maybe richer because they are very serious in... Wherever they are, they are serious. In collecting wealth also they are very serious. In collecting, I mean... Girirāja: Life members. Dr. Patel: ...them also they are serious. In knowledge also they are serious. And in preaching also. Girirāja: Prasādam. Dr. Patel: Look at the Christ. Look at the Christ. Against all odds he's, I mean, up to the end of his life he remained one, truthful to his convictions. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...keśa*-dharanam. Every young man is keeping big, big hair. Lavanyaṁ keśa... That is the symptom of this age. It is written in the Bhāgavata, lavanyaṁ keśa-dharanaṁ. Vipratvaṁ sūtram eva hi. Vipratvaṁ sūtram eva hi: "A man becomes brāhmaṇa simply by that thread." Dr. Patel: They keep on the thread for cavi, for keeping key there so it may not be lost. Prabhupāda: And daṁpatye ratim eva hi: "Husband and wife means sex." Daṁpatye ratim eva hi. This, everything is there. Dr. Patel: The ideals were established so high that it was difficult for the common folk to reach that. *Prabhupāda: That is not for common folk. It is for the rājarṣis-imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ*-not for the loafer class. Therefore the whole population was trained how to become rājarṣi. Now the loafer class, they are taking the place of rājarṣi. That is the difficulty. Kṛṣṇa says that this science is meant for the rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. He did not go to preach to the loafer class. Dr. Patel: That is why it became naṣṭa. *Prabhupāda: No. The system was naṣṭa. A loafer class, he became a student of Bhagavad*-gītā. That is...Therefore it is naṣṭa. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. And anyone, any rascal, is commenting on Bhagavad-gītā. But it was meant for the rājarṣi. *Dr. Patel: Sir, I must have read at least, if not more, at least twenty commentaries on Bhagavad*-gītā. But I found the best by Ācārya Rāmānujācārya and yours. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: You are parallel, more or less. Your, I read in English, but that was in Sanskrit, the Sanskrit explained to English. Wonderful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmānujācārya has given Vedic quotation for each and every verse. Dr. Patel: His Sanskrit is very easy also, Rāmānujācārya's. Prabhupāda: Amongst the Vaiṣṇavas, he was the greatest ācārya, Rāmānujācārya. And to kill the Māyāvādīs, he was the ablest person, Rāmānujācārya. Still in South India, the Māyāvādīs and the Rāmānujas, they have talks, and the Māyāvādīs are defeated always. Dr. Patel: These ācāryas, they are all Rāmānujācārya followers that Tithi Kṛṣṇam Ācāri(?) and Rajgopal Ācārya, and they are all these Vaiṣṇavas of Rāmānujācārya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ācārya means Vaiṣṇava. Ayar. Ayar. And avaiṣṇava, Nayar, yes. *Dr. Patel: Nayars are non*-Aryans. Then the... All Nayars are black, charcoal black, because they are not Aryans. Aryans have the white, light skin. Prabhupāda: Even in Madras there are many brāhmaṇas, black. Dr. Patel: Brāhmaṇas, they are Ayars. They are quite... Even though they have settled in Madras for generations together, they are still having the color of... (Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, no. Āryas, they are not Vaiṣṇava, then. Ayar? Eh? Indian man (1): Śaṅkarācāryādi.(?) Prabhupāda: Ācāryas, they are Vaiṣṇava. Dr. Patel: He is also nayara, Mr. Mennon. Prabhupāda: No, nayar is not brāhmaṇa. Indian man (1): No brāhmaṇas. No brāhmaṇas. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (1): We have to serve the brāhmaṇas. Dr. Patel: Don't serve them now. They are rascals. Indian man (2): (Hindi) [break] Dr. Patel: ...mother died. Their relatives never came to lift her up. So himself dragged the dead body out and burned her just in front of his house. *Prabhupāda: A brāhmaṇa says because he is saṅkara, varṇa*-saṅkara. Yes. Dr. Patel: Who? Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya. Dr. Patel: Was he? No, no. Both were brāhmaṇas. Prabhupāda: He was born when his mother was widow, and she became pregnant by the priest. So she was going to kill herself. Then her father restrained her, that "Don't do it. Your... In the womb there is a big personality." So the brāhmaṇa community did not like her. Yaśomatīnandana: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Therefore he is called Śaṅkarācārya. *Indian man (2): Varṇa*-saṅkara. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Śaṅkara is the name of Śaṅkara. I don't agree you have said correctly. Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara... Śaṅkara is Bhagavān. But because he is Śaṅkara, therefore he is not accepted as Bhagavān. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yaśomatīnandana: Śaṅkara means mixed. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained that kṣīraṁ yathā dadhi*-vikāra. Kṣīram, milk, becomes dadhi-vikāra. Dr. Patel: Dahi. Prabhupāda: Dahi. So dahi is nothing but milk, but you cannot call it milk. *Dr. Patel: But he was a non*-mudri-patha(?) brāhmaṇa and I think his father was not a priest but regular man. Prabhupāda: Your daughter? Indian man (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So, where is your son? Huh? (Hindi) Dr. Patel: That was the case with the, this Nanesvara, Santak Nanesvara(?), that his father once became a sannyāsī, and then he came back and had a gṛhastha-āśrama with his wife before he was ordered by his guru... Prabhupāda: That is the case with Vallabhācārya also. He became sannyāsa, then again back, guru. Dr. Patel: The sannyāsī cannot come back. Indian man (2): Oh, Vallabhācārya. Dr. Patel: Vallabhācārya. No, no, Vallabhācārya's whole position is like that. So many of them, all these brāhmaṇas, they think themsevles to be... Some of them are even horrible people; still, they call them gurus. Prabhupāda: That was formerly also. Śukrācārya: "Ācārya by semina." Śukrācārya. Dr. Patel: Ācārya of śukra. *Indian man (1): We have got our Pultasena.(?) Pultasena means he is a lower*-class man. He has written the Rāmāyaṇa in Malayalam. He was the son of a muhri(?) (indistinct), and the muhri was crossing a river, just when he came to a lake. That river he cannot cross because (indistinct). So he said, "There is an auspicious moment. If I get a son, he will be a wonderful chap." So he went and slept in somebody's veranda. That lady (indistinct) He was not getting sleep, walking up and down. He asked (indistinct) The lady of the house came back and told, "Oh, at this auspicious moment if I get a son he will be wonderful chap." So he got a son from that... And this man went away. After so many years, when he came, this boy, from the childhood he went to the temple. And when he goes there he says, "False, false." He used to say because these brāhmaṇas are narrating the Vedas in such a bad way, it is all false only. It is all darkness. The muhri knew if they gave some (Hindi) after praying something, they (indistinct) The boy (indistinct) Then this amuhri came after so many years that way. He saw this boy, he understood it. Then he gave another... [break] Dr. Patel: ...are rogues. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: And the Patel was subordinate to Nehru. (laughter) *Dr. Patel: No, no. Patel, for the sake of the country he accepted the subordination. Otherwise whole India, all provinces, selected him as the prime minister. But because this man would have spoiled the whole thing he said, "I don't mind if my country is getting weak." He had a greatness of vision and a big heart. These are all petty*-hearted people. Prabhupāda: [break] Now in this age there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśya. All śūdras. Dr. Patel: They're very arrogant community. Very arrogant community. Prabhupāda: Which? Dr. Patel: The Kāśmīrī brāhmaṇas. They had no guts to go against the Muslims there, but they showed their arrogance. Fools they are. Prabhupāda: [break] ...Caitanya Mahāprabhu was sixteen years old, He defeated one great Kāśmīrī paṇḍita, Keśava Kāśmīrī. Dr. Patel: Yes. Yes. I have read it. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...Digvijayi. And when he came to Nabadwip, then he was defeated by a boy, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nimāi Paṇḍita. Dr. Patel: The ancient times, in Śaṅkarācārya's time, Kashmir was supposed to be the... Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given the evidence of His scholarship in the argument with Keśava Kāśmīrī and Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. Two places He has proved Himself as greatest scholar of the.... Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...read that portion, ātmarāma ca munayo? Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. I have just day before yesterday. I am reading Bhāgavata again. I am in the sixth adhyāya, after nearly finishing all the vṛttānta of Nārada Muni's previous birth and all this. Ātmarāma. Yes. That śloka is repeated by so many Vaiṣṇavas everywhere. Prabhupāda: [break] You are going to canvass for books? No. Devotee: I think it's a good idea but we don't have permission yet from the government to do that. We can't do that as yet. [break] Prabhupāda: Now we have to get permission for selling. We have got to. Dr. Patel: What? Prabhupāda: These books. Dr. Patel: I don't think there is any need of permission. Prabhupāda: No, we gave our promise... (end) Morning Walk -- November 21, 1975, Bombay *Yaśomatī*-nandana: [break] ...is talking about Western philosopher. What about the modern Indian philosophers? Prabhupāda: They are followers of the Western philosophers. Brahmānanda: Same. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: So why was it saying in the Western world this and that? Indian: [break] ...to Śaṅkarācārya. Most of the Śaivites are Vaiṣṇavites only. There is no differentiation between a Śaivite and a Vaiṣṇavite. We use that (indistinct) only. Even that (indistinct) you can see. But actually Śaivism has gone underground. Viṣṇu temples are more prominent and more people are getting results immediately. He is (indistinct) mundane people. He is helping them by solving... Prabhupāda: If anyone is aspirant of some material benefit and worships Kṛṣṇa, he gets it. And gradually, he gets Kṛṣṇa. Then when he gets Kṛṣṇa, he forgets all material profit. Girirāja: Like Dhruva Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svamin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yace [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. No more birth. Indian: So all fruit of (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa devotees only. ...this (Hindi) Bilvamaṅgala complained to Lord Kṛṣṇa, "Why You are not with me all along." "It has taken eighteen janmas to get Me. Eighteen janmas. You have not done that much, so you have to wait long." Jayapataka: [break] Why did Kṛṣṇa have all the demigod worship put in the *Vedas*? Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayapataka: They put... Vyāsadeva put all the demigod worship in the *Vedas*. Prabhupāda: For the karmīs. Kṣipra bhavati... What is that? Kam kanta... Jayapataka: Karmanaṁ siddhi. Prabhupāda: Karmānaṁ siddhi yajanti iha devatā. Who is interested to take bhakti immediately? Nobody is interested. Jayapataka: They can get their material facilities from Kṛṣṇa also. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is recommended. First of all śāstra recommends that if you want this thing you worship this deity, this deity. In this way, at last it is said that you can get anything if you worship Kṛṣṇa. That is said. Akāmaḥ sarvo kāma v mokṣa kāma udara dhī tivreṇa bhakti*-yogena. That is for the purpose that if he wants to take advantage, material benefit from Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa bhajana will be there, gradually they will forget this material benefit. They will become pure devotee. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja became. Svamin kṛtārtho 'smi vara na yace. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: One must have certain qualifications to be able to come the service of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: No. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: Even if one is in the complete mode of ignorance he can... Prabhupāda: Yena tena prakārena mana kṛṣṇa niveṣayet. Somehow or other, come to Kṛṣṇa. Kāmād prayat deśāt. Any way come to Kṛṣṇa. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: Then actually that means that it depends upon Kṛṣṇa's devotee rather than Kṛṣṇa, because only by association... Prabhupāda: No, if he comes to Kṛṣṇa on any account he will become devotee. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: Right. But he will come to Kṛṣṇa only if he comes in contact with His devotee. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Yaśomatī*-nandana: It appears that we came to Kṛṣṇa consciousness even though we were in a very low stage. Prabhupāda: That is the process, but if somebody comes to Kṛṣṇa with some material motive, he also becomes... [break] ...civilization and other civilization. Dr. Patel: Sir, let us first describe what is civilization. Prabhupāda: Hm? Dr. Patel: Let us, I mean, think about what is first civilization. Prabhupāda: Civilization means advance from animal life. Dr. Patel: That is the difference between other civilizations and Vedic civilization. Prabhupāda: Huh? So what is that difference, that I am asking. Dr. Patel: You are advanced from animal life to a higher life, spiritual life. That is Vedic civilization. Prabhupāda: That is I am asking. Civilization means not animal. Man, human being, must not be animal. This is the basic principle of civilization. Dr. Patel: Primary all are animals. They have to advance from animal life to further up. That is the civilization as you say. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I say. So not to remain animal. Dr. Patel: Yes, not to have status quo. Prabhupāda: Still it is going on. The junglis, they are not called civilized. They are as good as animals. In India we say jungli he, jungli. And others say uncivilized. So Aryan, Aryan means the most civilized group. Dr. Patel: But presently, sir, the Aryan race are spread the world over. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Patel: Right from... Aryans are spread the world over right from South America to... *Prabhupāda: They were, they were belonging to the Aryan family. The Europeans, they were also Aryan family, and Indians, the Arabians, Persians, they were all Aryan family. And the Americans they also migrated from Europe. They are also Aryans. But that is familywise. But actually Aryan means one who is advanced in civilization. That is Aryan. Therefore when Kṛṣṇa chastised Arjuna, He addressed him, "non*-Aryan." "You are not talking like Aryan." Anārya juṣṭam. "You are talking like non-Aryan." (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Aryan means advanced. The first-class civilized men are the Aryans. So that standard of Aryan civilization is to understand God, Viṣṇu, and go back to. This is perfectional. Yato vā imani (indistinct) bhūtāni jayante. To understand it. And again return back to Him. The modern civilization, they are completely unaware of God, neither they know it that going back to home, back to Godhead, is perfection of civilization. This is the defect. Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that the Aryan civilization, cradle of Aryan civilization near the North Pole, is somewhere in Russia. From there they started transmigrating. People went to Europe, from there to America, then south down to Iran, and then to India and all that. When they have such extreme cold they were able to civilize themselves to that extent. Prabhupāda: Hm? We don't say. Dr. Patel: The Eskimos are not able to do it. Prabhupāda: No. Civilization means they must live in a nice place like India. That is civilization. The America in those days, they were neglecting. Nobody was living there. Gradually they advanced. Otherwise these tracts of land were rejected. Dr. Patel: Hm? Prabhupāda: These tracts of land, North America, that was rejected by the Aryans. They knew it. Dr. Patel: They say the Mexico was known. Prabhupāda: Mexico, they are less civilized. They are not Aryans. They are not Aryans. Dr. Patel: That is patala bhumī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Patala bhumī means just opposite the eastern hemisphere. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: Just opposite the? Prabhupāda: Eastern hemisphere. Dr. Patel: But they had, sir, a very big Inca civilization in southern part of the American, I mean, continent, South America, that had been ransacked by these fellows, Spaniards. [break] *Yaśomatī*-nandana: ...that Rāvaṇa's brother, Mahirāvaṇa, was in... Prabhupāda: Brazil. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: Brazil? Prabhupāda: Yes. From the description it appears. Dr. Patel: They could have gone via the Berings, on other side of... Prabhupāda: By Suranga.(?) Dr. Patel: Bering, Bering, just near on the eastern end of Russia. Prabhupāda: Underground. Dr. Patel: There is just next, I mean, Alaska and Bering, opposite each other. They could have gone by that place to American continent in past. Devotee: That's what the scientists say. They are saying that they migrated by the northern way. Dr. Patel: Yes. That is the only way. Otherwise seas are very big waves. The small crafts could not travel on that. [break] Prabhupāda: ...proposition is not migrating. That is due to increase of population. The civilization means the culture. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Dr. Patel: [break] ...really spread toward the east in Indonesia and Indochina, all those places, which were again overtaken by Islam later on. Prabhupāda: Islam is also... Dr. Patel: History, it has spread. Even Bali Islands today are practicing Hinduism. Brahmānanda: Aryan means change in consciousness to God consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: This means all over the world there can be an Aryan culture. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is right. Dr. Patel: Today the world is dominated by Aryans, all over practically. Except in Central Africa. Prabhupāda: Today the whole world is dominated by demons. Dr. Patel: Today. The Aryans have become demons. Prabhupāda: Yes. That... Anyone can become demon. A demon can become Aryan, and Aryan can become demon by culture. That is one... Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. A brāhmaṇa can be generated to Rāvaṇa state. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Aryan culture. That who is Aryan? These are the symptoms of Aryan. If the symptoms are found in Mexico, they are Aryan. That is verdict of Nārada. Yady anyātrāpi dṛṣyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiṣet [SB 7.11.35]. We are doing that. They are coming from mleccha family, but they have practiced to become brāhmaṇa, they are brāhmaṇa. This is Aryan culture. Dr. Patel: But they are Aryans originally. Prabhupāda: No, no. This you are calculating from the skin. Dr. Patel: No, no skin. From the blood group. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Blood or skin, the same thing. The same thing. The same thing. Dr. Patel: All the Aryans have got B blood group in majority of them. Prabhupāda: Skin comes from the blood. You know better than..., medical practitioner. Dr. Patel: Skin is nourished by blood. It comes from something else. Prabhupāda: So that is not the way. When there is symptoms... The symptom is... First symptom is that he must know that he is not body, and he must know what is God. Then it is Aryan civilization. *Dr. Patel: Ātma*-niṣṭha and īśvara-niṣṭha. *Prabhupāda: Hm. And yasyātmā*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke, sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. That is animal. *Dr. Patel: Kuṇape is a dead body. Kuṇape tri*-dhātuke. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is dead. What is this body? It is already dead. Just like motorcar. It is dead lump of matter. So long the driver is, it is moving. Similarly, the body is dead. So without understanding of spiritual identification, simply decorating this body means aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanam loka*-rañjanam. This is going on, loka-rañjanam, just to captivate some foolish person that they are advanced in civilization. What is that civilization? But we can understand, this civilization and the dog, there is no difference. There is no difference. Dr. Patel: Now there will be no difference because there is just like dogs, the society, no marriages and all those... We talked yesterday. There are facts. That is going on everywhere. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Na te vidu svārtha*-gati hi viṣṇu durāśay ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Bahir-artha, bodily concept, this is bahiḥ. And antar is the soul. So they are bahir-artha-māninaḥ. These rascals are bahir-artha-māninaḥ, simply studying this body externally, bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Very nice words, selected words, are used in Bhāgavata. Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, this body and the soul are complimentary. If there is no body, soul cannot reside anywhere. And if there is no soul, body will die. Prabhupāda: No. That is another side of bodily conception. Soul is without... Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. "The soul has nothing to do with this material world." Dr. Patel: That's right. You are absolutely right, sir. But if there is no soul in the body, what will happen to the body? Prabhupāda: No, no. If there is no soul in the body, then body is useless. Dr. Patel: It dies. Prabhupāda: That's all. That we are pointing out, that without soul, this body has no meaning. It is a lump of matter. But you are saying that without this lump of matter, the soul cannot... Dr. Patel: No, no. I don't say that. But so far as the body is living, soul has got to be there. Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Patel: If there is no soul inside, what will happen... Prabhupāda: No, no. Body requires the soul for movement, but soul does not require the body. Dr. Patel: Soul creates a body to fulfill... *Prabhupāda: No, no. Soul creates in this sense: by his karma he has to accept, accept a certain type of body. But originally he doesn't require this material world. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. And that is self*-realization. Dr. Patel: The production of the body in the cosmos is the līlā of... Prabhupāda: No līlā. It is compulsory. Dr. Patel: Why compulsory? Prabhupāda: Just like if a man is beaten with shoes, that is not his līlā. (laughter) Dr. Patel: What it is? Prabhupāda: It is force, that "You must be beaten with shoes." That is not līlā. Nobody says, "Let me play this līlā and you beat me with shoes." (laughter) No sane man will do that. When a man is punished, that is by force, superior force. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. This is force, prakṛti, nature's. You cannot say that "I don't care for the prakṛti." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ. Dr. Patel: Prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā. It is God's prakṛti. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The matter, material nature, is forced upon him. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. He is accepting different bodies according to the contamination of material nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. That he does not know. Ahāṅkara-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. He does not know that there is a superior karta, daiva netreṇa. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantu deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. So he is forced to accept a certain kind of body by the material nature. That he does not know. This is non-Aryan. Like dog. He does not know that why he has got this dog's body. He simply has learned how to bark, that's all. Dr. Patel: (laughs) I have my doubts. How can we know that he is not knowing or knowing? It is our conjecture that he is not knowing. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Śāstra says. You conjecture, but we don't conjecture. We simply repeat what is said in the śāstra. Śāstra*-cakṣuṣāt. "Your eyes should be the śāstra, not conjecture." Śāstra says, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. He has become a dog on account of his infection with certain type of material qualities. That is our eyes. We don't conjecture anything. It is naturally may be inquired that "Why one living entity has got this body of a dog and why one living entity has got the body of King Indra?" The śāstra-cakṣuṣāt: kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Śāstra says, Kṛṣṇa says. So it is, reason is, that he has infected the certain type of material modes of nature; therefore he has got. It is very easy. As you, medical man, you know how the disease has come, you have infected the disease. It is that. Dr. Patel: Kāraṇaṁ ganga. *Prabhupāda: Kāraṇam. Kāraṇam, yes. I am layman. I cannot say why I have got this fever. You can... By analysis, you can say. So therefore śāstra*-cakṣuṣāt. Śāstra says, "You analyze his blood, and if these symptoms are there, therefore this disease is there." That is śāstra, not conjecture. You don't diagnose by simply imagining. No. That is not scientific treatment. You analyze blood, stool and this, and find out what is the germ. Then you analyze. And in the śāstra the symptoms are there, analytical, that "This kind of disease, the symptoms will be this, this, this, this." That is śāstra, not conjecture. Kāraṇa guṇa-saṅgo 'sya, very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that "This rascal has infected this body on account of his particular connection with the modes of material nature." In the smṛti-śāstra it is stated how one gets tuberculosis, how one gets this disease, that disease, different pāpa. [break] Brahmānanda: ...culture should be designed to cure the material disease. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Aryan culture. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is Aryan culture. But they do not know what is punar janma, how we can stop this birth and death, nothing of the sort. Simply dogs and cats, that's all, jumping, very busy. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. That's all. Immediately the verdict: "Oh, he does not know anything. He's as good." So? Everything is going nice? *Mahāṁsa: Yes, Prabhupāda. I just came from Bangalore last night. They are having a very big program there and a lot of publicity from the newspapers with pictures and nice articles, big articles on the front page of the newspapers there. And tomorrow the governor is coming as the chief guest for the program. He was... He had that Sunday-that is tomorrow*-he was fixed on going to Sai Baba's conference, but when we went to see him he was very pleased because he had gone to our Vṛndāvana temple just ten days back, so he was very much enthused with our activities and he liked the temple very much. So he was very pleased and he said, "Yes, I will cancel Sai Baba's program and come to your program." Devotee: Jaya. (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the governor of Karnataka? Mahāṁsa: Yes. He was the chief minister of Rajastan previously. Prabhupāda: Yes, some governor went to our temple, I heard. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Akṣayānanda wrote to me. Governor of Karnataka State. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is a good response, that after seeing our temple he decided to attend our conference. That is very good. Mahāṁsa: The boys are selling more than fifteen hundred rupees' worth of books, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: In Bangalore? Mahāṁsa: Yes. And the most popular book there now is that Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Everyone, everyone is buying. (Prabhupāda laughs) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They wanted us to print lakhs of copies of that book. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can get it printed in India now. Prabhupāda: Yes. And in that book we have mentioned that Darwin's theory is completely bogus. In Europe and America also we are getting good response, very. Mahāṁsa: Also another party of five devotees, they have started on the bullock cart saṅkīrtana, going village to village. But it's very austere. They were... I told them, "You go for two months, come back after two months." But they returned in six days. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Why? Mahāṁsa: Because first of all, they did not know how to ride the bulls, so the bulls gave a lot of trouble. Prabhupāda: Then there is no professional driver? Mahāṁsa: Well, now we are going to hire one driver to take care of the bulls. And secondly, even the axle of the cart was a little defective. Otherwise the program was a great success. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is success. People were coming. Mahāṁsa: Yes. And one person came to the temple in Hyderabad and met me. He said that "After your devotees had a program in our village, the farmers in the evening they were coming and doing kīrtana instead of just..." Previously they were not doing anything, but now they are coming after farming. In the evening they are collecting and they are doing kīrtana together. Prabhupāda: Just see how quickly there will be response. Therefore I was insisting, "Go village to village, town to town." Caitanya Mahāprabhu's prediction, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi. Mahāṁsa: Grāma, yes. Prabhupāda: So it will never be foiled. Let us now begin village to village. Mahāṁsa: People in the villages, they are innocent, but they have been infected with so many vices. They are all drinking toddy every day. Prabhupāda: They'll... If they chant, they will forget it. Mahāṁsa: Yes. And the government is pushing toddy sales because they make money on it. They make tax. Prabhupāda: They want money, that's all. Mahāṁsa: So they want to encourage. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And now they're bringing prohibition. Mahāṁsa: Where? Only in Madras there is now. Mahāṁsa: A couple of months back there was an article in the papers that the chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is going to ban all gambling activities. Prabhupāda: That is very good. Mahāṁsa: So I wrote back a letter to the chief minister requesting him that he has made a very good step and he should try and restrict all the four sinful activities. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Did he reply? Mahāṁsa: No, he never replied. *Prabhupāda: This animal civilization, go*-kharaḥ, is going as civilization-drinking, meat-eating, gambling. This is less than animal civili... Animals do not play gambling, at least. They have illicit sex, but no gambling. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: They cannot have intoxication either. Mahāṁsa: Oh, yes, drinking. Prabhupāda: That sugar, they say that the ants they are very intoxicants; therefore they like sugar. Sugar is intoxication. Wine is made from sugar. Yes. Mahāṁsa: Yes. Molasses. Prabhupāda: Molasses. Ferment molasses with sulphuric acid and then distill. It is wine, liquor. People are producing unnecessary quantity of sugarcane; *therefore the drinking habit is increasing. Because from sugar the molasses is the by*-product, so they have to use. They are finding out what is next industry, and the next industry is liquor, wine. So when they produce more wine, then they must sell, and the people must drink. This is going on, one after another. And in Hawaii, Mauritius and in so many other places we see they have produced unnecessary quantity of sugarcane. And then molasses... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. And then wine, and they must be sold. Devotee (2): So this is sinful activity, then. *Prabhupāda: All sinful activity. Ugra*-karma. And if you drink wine, then you must require meat. Otherwise your liver function will be bad. There must be lump of meat. And as soon as wine and meat combine, then you require illicit sex. It is one after another. This is scientific. So we stop immediately: "Stop these four principles." Then one will be free from sinful life. Then he'll understand what is God. Otherwise not possible. A sinful man cannot understand what is God. Why the whole world is godless? On account of the sinful life, they cannot understand. Devotee (2): So the means of production have to be changed into pious type of... Prabhupāda: No. If you stop sinful activities, the production will automatically stop. If there is no market for wine, then it will stop automatically. So you stop drinking, and the market for liquor will stop. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we can return. [break] ...has not come today? He is entangled with his grandson. Devotee (2): What is that? *Prabhupāda: Kejiya? Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Yan*-maithunādi gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. (laughs) Beginning, sex. Again sex, again sex, again sex. [break] Mahāṁsa: ...now we have about sixteen to eighteen thousand kg's of rice stocked up. We just harvested all the rice. We got a fairly good yield, not exceptionally good because it was our first attempt. Prabhupāda: So your invested money is realized? Mahāṁsa: Yes. If we sell that, we can get at least double. Prabhupāda: "If we sell" means you sell it. First of all take whatever you invested, money. Mahāṁsa: Yes, that is what I was thinking. Sell what we invested and distribute the rest. Prabhupāda: Give them prasādam daily. So they are coming for kīrtana? Mahāṁsa: Few people are coming, but there are not so many devotees there to have a... Prabhupāda: Organize. Mahāṁsa: ...big program. Yes. And all the devotees who are there are very new, all new recruits. Prabhupāda: Then how we are going to organize? Mahāṁsa: Well, Haṁsadūta said as soon as the land is transferred he would send ten devotees for the farm. So then I think it will start. Prabhupāda: So we have to import devotees. You cannot create devotees. Mahāṁsa: We have got about eight devotees there who are new, but they are not experienced. Prabhupāda: Train them, train them. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: To give a manager right way, Haṁsadūta said. Prabhupāda: Hm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He can give a manager for the farm. Mahāṁsa: Yes. If we get a manager, then we can manage. Prabhupāda: No. If you do not get a manager, then what is the use of taking the land? If you cannot manage, then what is the use of taking? Give them prasādam. They will come. So why you are not giving that prasādam? Every day there must be huge prasādam distribution. Mahāṁsa: Many people? Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever you grow, you use it for prasāda distribution. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...thing produced, that should be used as prasādam. And they will chant. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. If that program is not done, then what is the use of taking? Mahāṁsa: We have plenty of rice now, and also the dahl will be harvested in about fifteen, twenty days. And the village people, this is their normal food, rice and dahl. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's fine. Mahāṁsa: So we can distribute to all the villagers. Prabhupāda: Distribute rice and dahl and little vegetables, and they will come, take prasādam and chant. Mahāṁsa: Also this bullock cart party can recruit many persons from villagers to come and stay at the farm. Prabhupāda: That is first business, that they should join this movement and eat prasādam and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...food, they have begun spinning their own cloth. Devotee (2): Oh, yes. Mahāṁsa: Most of the land at the farm is black cotton soil, very favorable for growing cotton. So a piece of that we can take, ten acres or so for growing cotton, and spin our own cloth. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is required. Why purchasing cloth, twenty*-two rupees per pair? No? What is the charge nowadays? Mahāṁsa: It's about three, four rupees per meter. Girirāja: For two dhotīs you'd need fifteen rupees. Prabhupāda: Fifty? Girirāja: Fifteen. Prabhupāda: Fifteen. Yes. Girirāja: For the good quality. Prabhupāda: So if we produce our own cloth, there is no su... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Harikesa: What do they use for utensils in a self*-sufficient society? Prabhupāda: Banana leaf. Harikesa: Cooking utensils. Brahmānanda: Clay cups. Prabhupāda: Cooking, of course, you can get pots, brass pots. [break] ...temple. Huh? Mahāṁsa: The structure is over, Prabhupāda. Now the ornamental work is started since last fifteen days. They said they could finish it by March, but I don't know if we'll be able to push it before that. Since last one month the collections have also increased. So if the collections go on in the same speed as we are going now, it may be finished by March. But otherwise definitely by August it will be complete. [break] ...fifteenth of this month Indira Gandhi was in Hyderabad. I got a letter from Praghoṣa that there were lakhs of people there to see her, and we have printed up coupons which we go shop to shop and tell everyone that "You buy one brick for the temple. So eleven rupees is the cost of one brick. So in your name one brick must be put." So we have these coupons, and they distributed six thousand rupees' worth of coupons in that program. Six hundred coupons they distributed in that meeting. Prabhupāda: "Sell well." You know he is "sell well" man. (laughter) Mahāṁsa: Sell a brick for the temple. Well, one person got the book, and he came the next day and he wanted to become a member. He was convinced. And Acyutānanda says that this is for the atheistic people who cannot understand God, so here we are proving scientifically that God exists and how Kṛṣṇa is the supreme scientist. So materialists, there are so many materialistic people, they always like these kind of books, so they are buying. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The next book will also be a big hit, I think, that these scientists are preparing. Mahāṁsa: Daily there are at least 2,000 to 2,2500 people coming to the program. There would be more if there was more space, but it's an enclosed hall, so we can't fit in more people. It's packed up. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a lot bigger than it was three months ago? Mahāṁsa: Oh, yes. We have very big publicity. And we get letters from different parts of Karnataka inviting us for programs in their villages. Prabhupāda: Yes, you do that. [break] Some big man came to see me for cooperating with others like Chinmayananda and Vinoda Bhave. Mahāṁsa: A businessman? Girirāja: Bajaj. Prabhupāda: Bajaj, yes. *Mahāṁsa: [break] They are quite friendly with us. There is one (indistinct) Swami, he likes our movement very much. And they have written in their book... There was a picture with devotees doing kīrtana in the Dharma*-prakash. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I sometimes wrote article. That Dr.... Mahāṁsa: Nagar. Nagar and Rao. Prabhupāda: No, not Nagar. He is a devotee. [break] Mahāṁsa: Prabhupāda, how can we cooperate with them? Prabhupāda: With (indistinct)? Mahāṁsa: No, the Chinmayananda and this sect. *Prabhupāda: No, cooperation on the basis of Bhagavad*-gītā. If they are actually serious preaching Bhagavad-gītā, then there is cooperation. *Mahāṁsa: Recently Chinmayananda had a big program in Hyderabad for twelve days. He spoke on the twelfth chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā, but he never mentioned the name of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Just see. Mahāṁsa: And last year when he had come, he said in his first lecture that "We will accept those verses now which are suitable, and those which are not suitable, we will reject them." He wants to reject Kṛṣṇa's authority. *Prabhupāda: Then we reject them. At once we reject it. Yes. These Māyāvādīs, they know that if they accept Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, then their Māyāvādī philosophy is finished. Mahāṁsa: And those of the Vivekananda or Ramakrishna āśrama, there is only one senior devotee that they have now, he is the president of the Hyderabad branch. His name is Ranganath. Prabhupāda: Oh, Ranganath, yes. Mahāṁsa: And one day one of our regular devotees, he went to see him and said, "What about in America there are so many people, they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa?" So he says, "In America also there are many fools." So he is blaspheming like this, how can we cooperate with such people? Prabhupāda: No, we cannot cooperate. But if there is meeting we can prove them that they are fools. (laughter) That's all. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jaya. *Indian devotee: That is required. Actually, that is the potency of your teaching is so powerful. I have seen that every time someone makes this poor excuses in front of people... Just like yesterday I was in the train, and one guy was saying exactly the same thing, that "I believe in the Bhagavad*-gītā in my own way." So I opened up Bhagavad-gītā and I showed to four people, "Look here, just see what Kṛṣṇa is saying here." And all of them agreed. They said, "Yes, yes. You are right and he is wrong." All of them. He said that "I believe in Bhagavad-gītā in my own way." I said, "Are you the controller of the sun and the moon and the stars and the planets?" Mahāṁsa: Oh yes, we all... Just two, three days back we went to see that Śaṅkarācārya of Kamakochi(?), and the old Śaṅkarācārya, he was very nice. He said, "Oh, you are doing very nice work," and he liked us very much. But then the young Śaṅkarācārya, he didn't say anything, but he had one paṇḍita near him who started, who first questioned us that "Do you know Sanskrit?" So... Prabhupāda: Why did you not, "Do you know English?" (laughter) *Mahāṁsa: So first of all Acyutānanda... I wasn't there, but Acyutānanda and Yaśodānanda said, "No, we don't know much San... A little bit. We don't..." So he quoted, "Sarva dharmān... Do you know that verse?" So they said, "Yes." So he said, "Explain what is the meaning of that verse." He started the whole conversation. We didn't want to get into any philosophical argument. So they started explaining what is the meaning, one must surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And then it went on, who is Kṛṣṇa. And then finally Acyutānanda and Yaśodānanda were quoting so many ślokas that they were completely baffled, and the whole crowd that was there, they were appreciating, and we were defeating them. By every śloka we were defeating them, and they were completely baffled. Ultimately he said*-he could not fight back-so he said, "Swamiji, you are right," and he wanted to close the whole conversation because the people were gaining our side. They were being convinced by our ślokas. Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Mahāṁsa: They were completely shocked that they knew so many Sanskrit ślokas from so many different scriptures. Prabhupāda: The Western learned circle, they are admitting that the greatest contribution of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is these authentic translation of Vedic literature. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mahāṁsa: [break] Many people in Bangalore, when I went to see them, they knew about our movement. "Oh, yes, Hare Kṛṣṇa. You all do bhajan..." They call us bhajan mandali. Then when we started preaching to them, showing them the philosophy, the books and all the activities that we are doing all over the world, they were really, they were shocked. They said, "Oh, we never knew you were doing so much." And they said there is no other organization which is comprising of all the different kinds of activities, all kinds of welfare and spiritual activities that we are doing. If we just had many preaching parties and go all over and show people what all the activities that we are doing, people will accept us. They will know more about our movement. Otherwise right now they just think that we are just a kīrtana group, bhajan mandali. Prabhupāda: [break] What did he speak? Mahāṁsa: He spoke on different verses, one by one, of the twelfth chapter. But no conclusion. Every lecture there was no conclusion. So he leaves the people in a blank. There is no conclusion to any of his lectures. And his philosophy is "Kṛṣṇa means black. Black means unknown. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is unknown. Kṛṣṇa is unknown. We cannot know Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: And what about others' version who knows Kṛṣṇa? Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu or all the ācāryas? (end) Morning Walk -- November 24, 1975, Bombay *Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole world is suffering on this misconception. The horse also. As soon as it gets on somebody on his back he become jubilant immediately. This is the nature. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya*-nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jaya. [break] ...vantam eva caran nirāntara prasanta-niḥśeṣa-mano-rathāntaram, kadāham aikāntika-nitya-kiṅkara praharsayiśyāmi sanātha jīvitam. This is Vaiṣṇava aspiration. Bhavantam eva caran nirāntaram: "Twenty-four hours simply carrying Your orders." And you can do it. But it is not possible. The mind is checking. Prasanta-niḥśeṣa mano-rathāntaram. Unless one's mind is fixed up, he cannot become servant of God. Kadāham aikāntika-nitya-kiṅkara. "In this way, when I shall be absolutely Your servant and live very joyfully, that 'I have got my master.'?" This is Yamunacārya's verse. *Dr. Patel: Sanātha*-jīva. *Prabhupāda: They are all anātha*-jīvita. Yes. Everyone is independence and anātha. There is nātha, but he'll not recognize. Anātha-jīvita. Bhavantam eva caran nirāntaraṁ prasanta... So we are educating people how to become sanātha-jīvitam. Live on your master's... Everyone is living at the cost of master, but foolishly. Ahāṅkara-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. They are living at the cost of the master, but they will not accept. This is the disease. [break] ...natural life, sanātha-jīvitam. From the birth the child is sanātha, parents. Where is the possibility of living independently? That is not possible. Dr. Patel: Yamunācārya was śiṣya or guru of Rāmānujācārya? Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya. Dr. Patel: Rāmānujācārya was guru or śiṣya? Prabhupāda: Yes, guru. Dr. Patel: Guru. I think Viṣṇu Svāmī was his śiṣya. *Prabhupāda: No. Viṣṇu Svāmī*-sampradāya, different. That is Rudra-sampradāya. And Rāmānujācārya is Śrī-sampradāya. The Vallabhācāryas, they belong to Viṣṇu Svāmī. We belong to Madhva-sampradāya. Four ācāryas. *Yaśomatīnandana: Who was the originator of Śrī*-sampradāya? *Prabhupāda: Hm? Lakṣmīji. Pāda*-sevanam. Śravaṇa kīrtana viṣṇo smaraṇa pāda-sevanam. Lakṣmīji is always engaged in massaging the feet of Lord Viṣṇu. Yaśomatīnandana: Rāmānujācārya is the biggest in line? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Indian man: (Hindi) (dogs barking) [break] Dr. Patel: ...dog and the other. That is the bulldog and the Russian... Prabhupāda: Who is defeated? He is Russian dog? Brahmānanda: German. Dr. Patel: They have crossed the dog with the, what you call, the bull. Brahmānanda: German shepherd. Dr. Patel: So Germany is defeated, no? Prabhupāda: The bulldogs are English? Dr. Patel: They are English. And Mr. Churchill is the representative of all the bulldogs. [break] Prabhupāda: ...thinking, "I am English dog," (laughter) and he is thinking, "I am..." And the man is also thinking like that. What is the difference? Dr. Patel: Both are animals. *Prabhupāda: Yasyātmā buddhiḥ kuṇape tri*-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. *Dr. Patel: That's right. We have got a dvija, dvija*-karma kriya. Dvijā-karma-kriya? What do you call it? Prabhupāda: Saṁskāra. Dr. Patel: All are born as animal. Prabhupāda: Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. *Dr. Patel: Saṁskāra, yes. Dvija*-saṁskāra. Second birth. Prabhupāda: That saṁskāra is now stopped; therefore all of them are animals. Yes. [break] The murgis, [chickens] they are in the cowshed? Dr. Patel: That man who is looking after cows, he must be keeping. Prabhupāda: For andha? [eggs]. *Dr. Patel: For everything. They... Even the murgis. Nowadays this meat*-eating has become very widespread in India. Even brāhmaṇas are eating meat. I don't mean those who have gone to Europe or America and come back, but people who are staying here. Extremely common. Prabhupāda: That is the sign that in very near future there will be no food grains. That is the sign. There will be no rice, no wheat, main food grain. Yaśomatīnandana: Already in Bombay it's about six, seven rupees per kilo, rice. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? *Dr. Patel: No, no. Now rice will be very much down. In Gujarat it is two rupees. I bought some land here and sown the rice. We are going to get about eight hundred or a thousand mounds of rice. And when we sown the field it was sixty rupees, rice. Today it is thirty*-two rupees. It is coming down. The crop is very good everywhere, all over India this year. Prabhupāda: Because there was sufficient rain. *Dr. Patel: Very good rain, yes. Gujarat will be more than self*-sufficient. It is already the richest part of this country. Prabhupāda: Parjanyāt. *Dr. Patel: Parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ. Annād bhavati bhūtāni. It is... *Prabhupāda: This is cycle. Perform yajña and everything will come. They have stopped yajña... Therefore hari*-nāma-yajña, this is the yajña. Dr. Patel: Viṣṇu... Viṣṇur vai yajñaḥ. Viṣṇu Himself is yajña. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Devotee (1): [break] ...saying that it is because of our chanting twenty*-four hours a day that there is more rain this year. Prabhupāda: Yes. In Hyderabad they also say. For six or seven years there was no rain. Now it is raining. This is practical. [break] ...yanti bhūtāni. Devotee in distance: Haribol! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Dr. Patel: Who is that? Old man? Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) [break] ...has died. His grandson is maintaining. *Dr. Patel: [break] ...yajñaḥ karma*-samudbhavaḥ. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...yajñaḥ karma*-samudbhavaḥ. Not for sense gratification. Then you will suffer. But they are all working for sense gratification, not yajñārthe. Yajnārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. *Dr. Patel: Tad arthaṁ karma kaunteya mukta*-saṅgaḥ samācara. Prabhupāda: Samācara. *Dr. Patel: But here, sir, parjanyād anna sambhavaḥ. There, yajñad bhavati bhūtāni, yajñaḥ karma*-samudbhavaḥ, karma brahmodbhava viddhi brahmākṣara-samudbhavam. That means karma as ordained by the scriptures, brahmodbhavam. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is karma. Otherwise vikarma. But they are doing vikarma. Nunaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya*-prītaya āpṛṇoti [SB 5.5.4]. This is vikarma, anyone working hard day and night for sense gratification. That means sinful, vikarma. Dr. Patel: And if you don't do the ordained karmas, it is akarma. No. It is akarma. Prabhupāda: Karma means according to the śāstra's direction. Dr. Patel: But if you don't do that, that becomes akarma. Prabhupāda: Vikarma. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Akarma means... Prabhupāda: Yes. Akarma means no resultant action. When it is done for Viṣṇu... Dr. Patel: Then it becomes akarma. Prabhupāda: Akarma. Dr. Patel: Akarma. But akarma, this... This bhāṣya of Rāmānujācārya, he says akarma means knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge, that is knowledge, that "I have to work for Viṣṇu." That is knowledge. Dr. Patel: Akarma means knowledge. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Room Conversation -- November 25, 1975, Delhi Prabhupāda: ...this society. Only the important men, they can live as gṛhastha. Not that "Now I am in love with this girl and get me married and yajña and then sleep." These things should be stopped. That, that what is his name, the rascal's name, that, whom you have driven away? Devotee (1): Srnghadi(?). Prabhupāda: Srnghadi? Devotee (1): Śrīnati. Prabhupāda: Śrīnati.(?) From his face it appears that he's woman hunter. Did he talk with you? Devotee (1): Yes. *Prabhupāda: So in every center they must rise early in the morning. They must follow the regulative principles. They must attend class. Otherwise let them go out. We don't want. And if anyone wants to marry, first of all he must show that he has some earning capacity. Not that "Because there are so many girls, and I marry one to satisfy my senses..." I thought that boy was nice, and I heard all these stories. That is also another defect, that we have got young boys and young girls open for lovemaking. And brahmacārī means strictly prohibited to see the face of woman. But we cannot stop it. That is also another defect. Fire is good and butter is good, but when they come together everything become bad. Is it not? Fire is good, just like heat. And butter is good, healthy. But when they come together the butter melts and the fire extinguished. This is māyā's arrangement. Puṁsa striyā mithunī*-bhāvam etam. This whole world is going on by the sex attraction, and when they come together both of them become spoiled. Therefore it has to be dealt with very, very carefully, so many rules, regulation. [break] ...used, Nitāi? Nitāi: Whenever there is necessity. Prabhupāda: Compulsory. Nitāi: Compulsory. When there's rule, vidhi. Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, vrajet, "must." Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta [SB 11.3.21]. At least let us inform the whole world that the process of civilization, education, everything rotten. That we have to say. (end) Morning Walk -- November 26, 1975, New Delhi Prabhupāda: ...looks better, eh? Akṣayānanda: Than that Bombay idea? Yes, I think so also. Prabhupāda: So where is...? Saurabha has gone? Akṣayānanda: He's in Vṛndāvana. He's coming back here tonight. Prabhupāda: So it should be changed. Sitting idea is not to be... Akṣayānanda: Yes, it's nice. Prabhupāda: [break] ...forget to tell him. Akṣayānanda: I'll tell him definitely, Prabhupāda. [break] Devotee (1): They are teaching communistic philosophy. Devotee: We went there to try to sell them some books. They were very hostile. Prabhupāda: Hostile. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Why hostile? Devotee: Communistic. Prabhupāda: They are scientific men. Akṣayānanda: They say it's research. Prabhupāda: Hm? Akṣayānanda: Science, social science... Research. Research means they don't know. Just like Bon Mahārāja. Research. Prabhupāda: Research. Akṣayānanda: Research and research but still don't know. Prabhupāda: [break] If one is fool, where is the question of searching out? If he has got the right knowledge, why there should be searching? Searching means he is not in knowledge. [break] Harikeśa: It may be true that we have no knowledge, but we don't think we need God to... Prabhupāda: "Maybe" means rascal. As soon as you say "maybe," you are a rascal, immediately. There is no other argument. As soon as you say "maybe," that means you are a rascal. Harikeśa: Well, definitely we don't know. Prabhupāda: Therefore rascal. (laughter) Therefore rascal. We definitely know Kṛṣṇa, the origin of everything. That is definite, not "It may be." We don't say "Kṛṣṇa may be." No. Definitely. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Here is Bhagavān. Here is God. That is definite. Therefore our professor... Haṁsadūta: Svarūpa Dāmodara? *Prabhupāda: No, no. Who has written foreword to my Bhagavad*-gītā? Harikeśa: Dimmock. Prabhupāda: Dimmock. "Here is definitive..." Haṁsadūta: Version. Nitai: "Definitive edition." Prabhupāda: "Definitive edition." That is the credit. Not "may be." No "maybe," sir. That is rascaldom. Harikeśa: In our social science we find that God is only necessary to define the unknown. Otherwise He has no purpose. Prabhupāda: No, our God is not unknown. Known. We know God's residence. We know God's father, God's mother, God's activities, God's friends. Everything we know. There is no "maybe." Harikeśa: Just like in the former days when the savages saw thunderbolts... Prabhupāda: The savage... You may be savage. We are not savage. You may be savage, but we are not savage. We are civilized. Harikeśa: Therefore we don't have so many unknown things, so we don't need God. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: We're civilized, so we have so many things we know now, so we don't need God. Prabhupāda: No, we know everything. Who says we do not know? We know everything. Harikeśa: I'm playing the part... (laughs) Prabhupāda: We know everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idam vijñātaṁ bhavanti. This is the Vedic statement. If you know God, then you know everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idam vijñātam. Harikeśa: The materialists think, though, that the less you know, the more you need God. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: The less you know, the more you need God. Prabhupāda: Therefore we say they are rascal and fools. This is the... What is this "House of Soviet Culture"? So why don't you arrange a meeting here? Yes. Akṣayānanda: A nice place for a meeting. Prabhupāda: Huh? Akṣayānanda: That's the best place for a meeting. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is Soviet culture? We shall challenge them. Yes. We can challenge them because we know they are rascals. Mūḍha [break] Harikeśa: Religion is simply to keep people satisfied, that's all. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: Religion is simply to keep people satisfied. It's the "opiate of the masses." Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you have no satisfaction even. Your culture is so bad that you are not satisfied even. Then you are better. Everyone is looking after satisfaction. So you have no satisfaction even. So you are less than animal. Harikeśa: Well, at least everybody is not satisfied equally, so there's no envy. Prabhupāda: Because you are, everybody is not learned, everybody is rascal. Therefore he is not satisfied. If one is in knowledge he is satisfied. Harikeśa: But religion is just sentimentality. There's no... Prabhupāda: You do not know what is religion. Therefore we do not accept sentimental religion. We say it is cheating. Such kind of religion, we say it is cheating. Harikeśa: You can't eat religion. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: If you spend all your days just chanting, how can you eat? Religion means you go to the church and you just pray. Prabhupāda: And who says that religionists should not eat? Do we say...? We have ample prasādam to eat. It is already there. You are researching after food, starving dog. We don't research. There is food ready. Harikeśa: But we're just exploiting. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa bada day maya, karibāre jihv jaya, sva*-prasāda anna dilo bhāi. Kṛṣṇa is ready. Take prasādam as much as you like. Harikeśa: The Communists will say we're just exploiting. *Prabhupāda: The Communists may say, but we don't say. They are hungry people, they may say. We are not hungry. Our food is supplied by Kṛṣṇa. Yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham [Bg. 9.22]. He brings food. So why should the Communists? So we shall go further or return? Hm? Haṁsadūta: Which way? Devotee (2): Do you want to go further, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I can go. What is time? Harikeśa: Almost seven. [break] Prabhupāda: [break] ...road? Devotee (2): This is Curzon Road. Prabhupāda: Curzon Road. [break] ...religion, we say "cheating religion." We don't accept sentimentally. Harikeśa: Well, the sentiment is the faith. The dictionary definition, sentimentalism is the faith. Prabhupāda: Yes. Faith is good, provided you have faith on the superior. That is good. Harikeśa: So faith in knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge means received from the superior. Like the child gets knowledge from the father. That kind of faith is required. If the child does not believe the statement of father and mother, he cannot make any progress. If the child does not believe the statement of mother, he does not know who is his father. So there must be faith, faith in the right person. Then it is all right. If you have got faith in the person who has got eyes to lead you, then he will help you to cross the road. And if you put your faith to another blind man like you, then it will cause disaster. Faith is required, but to the right person. Then it will be all right. You know that one barber is honest: then you can make your neck like this and he is with a sharpened razor. But you have faith that "He will not cut my throat; *he will shave me." This is faith. And if you do not know him and if you put your neck like this and if he is a rogue, he will cut your throat. That's all. The same faith, if you put it to the right person, you become cleansed, shaved, and the same faith put in the wrong person*-your throat is cut off. So you must know where to put the faith. So our Vedic injunction is: "Put your faith to the brahma-nistam, one who is God-realized." Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet samit-paniḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭam: [MU 1.2.12] "One who has full knowledge in the Vedas and firmly fixed up in Brahman, God, you put your faith there." Otherwise there will be disaster. Right faith. [break] ...you call Prabhakara? Tejās: I called him on the phone. Prabhupāda: He is here? Tejās: Yes. I don't know why he didn't come. Harikeśa: So actually the one thing that makes Kṛṣṇa consciousness different from other religious processes is the practical application of knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Full knowledge, perfect knowledge. And other religious systems, they have no knowledge. They say of God something but they do not know what is God. We know what is God and who is God. That is the difference. Devotee (3): But they have no pure devotee in which to put their faith. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (3): They have no one in which to put their faith. Prabhupāda: Whatever they may be, put because they do not know God, therefore it is cheating. Just see, India's capital and so dirty thing. Harikeśa: You were saying about Eisenhower and Nehru? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Nehru was trying to hide the villages. *Prabhupāda: But any intelligent man can understand. Any foreigner who will come will understand how India is poverty*-stricken by this picture. (?) Harikeśa: It seems like the strongest preaching point or platform is the presence of a pure soul. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: The presence of a pure soul, someone who is wrapped up actually in love of God, is sufficient. Prabhupāda: Faithful servant of God. He can preach. He is authorized. He has got the power of attorney. Kṛṣṇa śakti vin nahe nāma pracāra. Harikeśa: I was thinking on Juhu Beach, these men have been walking by now for four years, and actually none of them have heard you speak, or maybe a few, but now they are all coming and touching your feet. *Akṣayānanda: [break] ...two*-year visas now, they must have more faith in you now, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Akṣayānanda: They must have more faith in you now in India because they're giving us two*-year visa. Faith must be improving... Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: ...in the right person. Prabhupāda: They should have that knowledge, that we are doing the best service to the humanity. It is better late than never. [break] ...position so they may not lose their faith. Akṣayānanda: Position should be pure. Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Remain pure. Prabhupāda: Earth teachers. (?) [break] Harikeśa: ...next conference. Devotee (4): They're all trying to learn Russian here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for when the Russians come and take over their country. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...the talk amongst the high*-court judges. So when there was fierce fighting was going on between the Germans and the Allies, so during their relaxed hours, the judges were sitting. So one, the Chief Justice of Calcutta, he asked one Justice Mukherjee. So Justice Mukherjee was very... He was vice-chancellor. So he asked him, "Mr. Mukherjee, now the Germans are coming. What you will do when they come?" He said, "Yes, as soon as they come, we shall: 'Come on sir, come on sir, come on sir.' We shall receive them." "Why?" "Now, you have taught us like that. You British people, you have taught us. (laughter) Our business is to receive. Anyone comes, we shall receive him. That's all." Devotee (4): And they will do the same with the Russians. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Harikeśa: It seems like they are preparing now by eating lots of meat and drinking a lot of alcohol. Prabhupāda: They cannot prepare us. That is the difference. Even they are preparing, but they cannot prepare us. That is the difference between fools and man with knowledge. [break] ...was existing? No. New temple. Haṁsadūta: I don't know. They're still in the process of building it. Prabhupāda: [break] Yes. Make samosa and halavā. Harikeśa: For lunch? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: For lunch. [break] Haṁsadūta: I couldn't follow the numbers. I just heard that so much for sleeping, so much for the toilet, so much... The noise of the machine... I couldn't follow the years. *Prabhupāda: Out of hundred years, fifty years*-sleeping. And fifty years balance twenty years-playing. And twenty years-old age, invalid. And ten years-frustration. Bas. (laughter) Devotee (5): Prabhupāda said Prahlāda Mahārāja said (unclear). *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Hundred years finished and then become a dog. This is civilization. You got the hundred years for getting out of these material clutches, janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhī [Bg. 13.9], but one will not do that. How spoiling civilization. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In the Fifth Canto it is very nicely described how for each sinful activity a person goes to a separate type of hellish planet. Prabhupāda: But they do not accept this, such a foolish person. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Any sane man, if he found out what the consequences will be, he would listen to the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: They do not believe next life, that, to dismiss all these ideas. If there is no next life... Bhasmi bhūtasya... Atheists, they do not believe next life. All big, big men in Europe, they say, "No, there is no life." Here also. Haṁsadūta: They will say, "We have no evidence, no evidence of..." Prabhupāda: Evidence is there. Still, you are so rascal. Evidence is you were a child. That is the evidence. Where is that body? A very simple evidence, but these rascals are so dull, they cannot understand. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They accept what is good for their sense gratification, and what is not good, they won't accept. Prabhupāda: And where is sense gratification? [break] Harikeśa: Everything is unmanifest in the beginning, manifest in the middle, and unmanifest at the end. So why should I care for anything in this lifetime? Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: If it's all unmanifest in the beginning, it's only manifest in the middle, and it's unmanifest again at the end, why should I care about anything this life? Prabhupāda: Then why you are making so much arrangement for sense gratification? Harikeśa: Well, I can enjoy while I've got it. Prabhupāda: But why... If it is not manifested, what is the enjoyment? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Harikeśa? Prabhupāda: You know Bengali? Devotee (4): No, Subhaga has spoken to me, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Harikeśa: Well, it's better to enjoy than to suffer. Prabhupāda: And where is enjoyment? The thief also thinks like that: "Let me enjoy by stealing." Then, when he goes to the prison, then his enjoyment finished. If somebody gives you so many rasagullā, that "You take this rasagullā, and after finishing, I shall beat you with shoes," then will you take? (laughter) This is enjoyment. No sane man will like to enjoy like that. "Take this rasagullā, and after this, I will beat you with shoes, as many rasagullā you have taken." Will you take it? Harikeśa: Yes, but I eat rasagullās every day and nobody beats me with shoes. Prabhupāda: Why the other day you told me, "I am now not... I cannot see. My brain is..."? Is it not beating with shoes? (laughter) Eh? Don't you agree? Indian man (5): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Huh? Everyone, but they are so rascal. Harikeśa: One famous psychologist, psychiatrist, said there is a pleasure and pain principle, that everyone wants as much pleasure as possible and as little pain as possible. So because we have to suffer and enjoy, why not make enjoyment as much as possible and reduce the suffering? [break] Prabhupāda: They are vacant? Haṁsadūta: No, they look occupied. Prabhupāda: [break] ...big building. Haṁsadūta: Some kind of auditorium. Harisauri: [break] Art. Prabhupāda: Art. Some art. Art, music Harikeśa: It's very enjoyable to hear music. Prabhupāda: Hm. [break] So why don't you come here? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Haryana? Prabhupāda: Yes, and take information. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I don't know if this is their offices. We'll check. Prabhupāda: Yes. Take immediately that. No, no, what is this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Come at nine o'clock. Prabhupāda: So near. You can come. [break] It is published, that the wood... Now it is no green leaves. Why? What is missing? If they are so expert, inject something and it will have green leaves like that. [break] ...I mean to say, trucks they are rejected in your country. We do not see such buses. What is this house? Harikeśa: It's a college. It's a girls' college. Prabhupāda: [break] How to kill child. This is education. Huh? Educated girl means how to divorce husband, how to kill child. Is it not? Educated, modern educated girl means how to become unfaithful to the husband, how to divorce and how to kill child. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: How to get equal rights. Prabhupāda: No, equal rights, that's all right. This is the education. The uneducated girls do not do this. [break] Harikeśa: This is very funny. Prabhupāda: What is that? Harikeśa: It says, "Invincible are the Korean people who are rallied firmly with one ideology and will under the brilliant rays of the immortal juch (?) idea of Comrade..." Prabhupāda: All ideals. Indian man (6): This is South Korea or North Korea? Harikeśa: South, I think. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] Harikeśa: They are becoming very advanced, making big skyscrapers. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a big hotel. Prabhupāda: Hotel? Oh. Tejās: Hotel and office. Prabhupāda: Those who are not cooperating... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They should be asked to leave. Prabhupāda: Yes. They must cooperate. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] The problem that these foreign, some of these foreign devotees that have come lately, they have been such loose devotees that the temple presidents, they want to get rid of them; they are sending them to India. Three people came from Rūpānuga's zone; and they were all useless devotees. They won't listen. They just ran away from Bombay. So I wrote a very strong letter to Rūpānuga Prabhu. I said, you know, they should screen the devotees before they send them to India. What they are doing is they are sending their rejected devotees to India. If any devotee is not good in their zone they say, "Okay, we'll send them to India." But here we have such big projects that we need devotees who will follow the rules strictly and who will listen to authorities. Prabhupāda: So tell them. If they have rejected and you also reject them, where they will go? Hm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we will train them, but these devotees don't cooperate very much. (end) Morning Walk -- November 29, 1975, Delhi Prabhupāda: And he said "Hare Kṛṣṇa"? Indian devotee (1): Yes. "Hare Kṛṣṇa." He said "Hare Kṛṣṇa." And he told me that "You come later on, and we will sit and talk." Prabhupāda: So go and sit and talk. What is his grievance? *Devotee (1): His wife is very devoted. She has a small Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. She is... (indistinct) Tejās: He is a very dirty man. His wife sometimes likes to give even a little flower, and she is afraid he will beat her if she gives anything to the temple. Prabhupāda: [break] ...sign? Rāmacandra? Tejās: Garuḍa and Hanumān. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Tejās: Rāmacandra, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa, Garuḍa, and Hanumān. Prabhupāda: [break] Unnecessarily there are so many parties, and they fight one another. This is democracy. Today is ekādaśī? Tejās: Today. Prabhupāda: From the moon it can be made. Haṁsadūta: [break] ...then the sun, it must be bigger than the sun. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: This moon planet must be a bigger planet than the sun if it's further away, because it appears bigger. Prabhupāda: It does not look bigger than the sun. May be bigger. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...Kalākendra. So many kalākendras. Kalā means cheating, kalā. In Bengal, when it is called kalā, kalā deki dichi means cheating... (Hindi) I think in other countries also somewhere, they do so, that "I cannot do anything." Eh? In your country do they not like showing this thumb? Haṁsadūta: No. Devotee (2): what does that mean? Prabhupāda: In India it is. Means "You are useless. You could not do anything." Passerby: Good morning, sir. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. There are so many kalākendras but no kendra for understanding ātmā. Huh? Apasyatam ātma-tattvam [SB 2.1.2]. In Bhāgavata it is said, apasyatam. They do not know what is ātma-tattvam, these rascals. Gṛheṣu gṛhamedhīnam. Apasyatam ātma-tattvam [SB 2.1.2]. These rascals, they do not know ātma-tattva, the science of self-realization. Bahir-artha-maninaḥ. They have been simply external. They are giving importance to the music, but the person who is playing the music, he has no information. He is thinking this tongue is vibrating music, such a rascal. If the tongue is vibrating music, then why*-he is dead-why the tongue does not play music anymore? And the ear is there. Why he does not hear any more music? If this body is all, then the body is there, the tongue is there, the ear is there-why there is no response of the music? Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam [SB 2.1.2]. And these rascals, they do not know who is the person who is singing and who is hearing. Therefore they have been called as mūḍhas. Who is singing, who is hearing, he does not know. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛhamedhīnam [SB 2.1.2]. Devotee (1): You were saying in Mauritius that they are imperfect and they are taking advice from the imperfect. Therefore very difficult for them to understand, because they don't take advice from the perfect person, Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...apaśyatām. They cannot see. They see only that the tongue is vibrating, the ear is hearing. And the dead man, the same ear is there, the tongue is there. Why there is no music? What they will answer? Tejās: They say it's a chemical interaction. Prabhupāda: What is that chemical? Eh? Why talk nonsense? Chemical reaction? Bring that chemical and let him hear again. What is the answer? Why do they say nonsense which he does not know? Chemical reaction, if it is chemical reaction, bring chemical and inject it. What is the answer? Harikeśa: That chemical is very complicated. They haven't found... *Prabhupāda: Then you do not know. First of all admit you are talking nonsense. The chemical you do not know. Still you are talking nonsense. Therefore you are rascal. Why do you talk nonsense if you do not know? What is the answer? If you do not know, why do you talk just like wise man? Then you are a nonsense. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā*-vādāṁś... [Bg. 2.11]. You are talking like a very learned scientist, but you are a rascal, fool. Challenge them like that. Tejās: They think that today they do not know... Prabhupāda: "They think." Tejās: ...but tomorrow, they think, will know. Prabhupāda: That is another rascal point. Therefore I say, "Kick them on their face tomorrow." He's offering postdated check. (laughter) Eh? Even if you are coming of a very millionaire's family, but if you give me a check postdated, shall I accept it? A sane man? No. Bring cash; then talk. (laughter) So these rascals, they have no cash. They have got only paper, postdated check. And who will accept it unless one is another fool, rascal, another rascal. Tejās: They are bluffing. Prabhupāda: That's all. Bluffing business goes on when there are many rascals. You can bluff the rascals, not the intelligent man. Who is cheated? One who is a rascal, he is cheated. Not the intelligent man is cheated. Harikeśa: They should have their salaries paid by postdated check. Prabhupāda: No, they will not accept that. That they will not accept. Harikeśa: "In the future we will pay you." Tejās: When you find the chemicals. Prabhupāda: "Now you starve. In future I shall pay." "How shall I eat?" "Now you starve. In future you'll get payment." You do not know what is the chemical, how it is acting, and depending on your future knowledge, and still, you are talking like a very great scientist. This rascaldom should be stopped by kicking on their face. Huh? So? Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, do you agree? Ambarīṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Thank you. [break] ...if they know the chemicals, why they open deaf and dumb school? Let the chemical be injected and they will be cured from dumbness and deafness. And where is that chemical? Hm? Harikeśa: I mean, after all, isn't it just a matter of time, because we've already invented new skin now. Prabhupāda: Again rascaldom. Again rascaldom. Harikeśa: Yes, but just think of what we've already done. We've made new skin. Prabhupāda: What you have done? What you have done? A man... A man is... Harikeśa: I tell you, we've made new skin. If somebody gets burned we can put new skin on. Prabhupāda: A man, when he is blind, what you can do? You can simply make some experiment. Then you say, "We tried. We could not do it." Harikeśa: Ah, but now we're putting in new eyeballs. Prabhupāda: That cannot see. (laughter) That is another... So how they are bluffing, just see. Harikeśa: In Russia they've made dogs with two heads. They've put another head on a dog in Russia, and now the dog has two heads. Tejās: Really? Harikeśa: Yes. Tejās: Such advancement. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Tejās: Such advancement, a two*-headed dog. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Eventually they're going to try to have men with two heads. They first experiment with animals and then try it on men. Prabhupāda: Therefore Rāvaṇa had ten heads, and he was killed in spite of ten heads. Still, he could not save himself from the hands of Rāma, although he had ten heads. He thought that "I have now ten heads. Who can be more intelligent than me?" And still, Rāmacandra proved, "Yes, I am better intelligent than you." [break] ...Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan? Tejās: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...even though we're here. Kalākendra. Prabhupāda: What is that, here? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You said there's a kendra everywhere, kalā. Prabhupāda: Kalā means this. (laughter) Ei kalā. [break] Prabhakara was working here. He was employed here. He was staying on that room, so I also stayed with him two days. [break] ...count of his unsteadiness he has lost so many good jobs. I do Tejās: Some man was telling me that... One M.P. was telling me that there are many criminal cases against him also now. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: How did you find that out? Tejās: He told me. I don't know why. This Dr. Lokescandra? He told me that "Ācārya Prabhakara has many criminal cases against him." Prabhupāda: [break] Which way we have to go? Tejās: This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (1): There was a poster on the wall, said they are opening a big exhibition of Russian books in Punjab, and the chief minister, he is going to open that. Prabhupāda: Many books? Devotee (1): Big exhibition of Russian books. They are teaching the Russian (indistinct) all over India. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: So why don't you exhibit our books? Let them come to competition. What books we have got, compare with our books. Devotee (1): What they say is that this philosophy is very old. They say that this philosophy is very old. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are giving old wine in new bottle. If it is old, why the up*-to-date Western boys are taking? It may be old for you rascals, but those who are intelligent... Devotee (1): They think that they are frustrated. They have nothing more to do except this. Prabhupāda: Then why they take this? Why not your philosophy? Why they take this philosophy? Why not the Russian philosophy? Devotee (1): So they are going to take. That's the reason they are putting the Russian books. Harikeśa: Well, lots of people take the Russian philosophy. Prabhupāda: No, they are exhibiting here in India, but why in Europe, America, they are not taking? Harikeśa: But there are many Marxists in America. Like on the subway... Prabhupāda: Many Marxists, there are many capitalists. That is another thing. But why the Russians could not make everyone Marxist in spite of so much propaganda? What is the basic principle of Russian philosophy? Tejās: What is the basic principle? Haṁsadūta: Follow the teachings of Marx. Prabhupāda: No, no. What is that teaching? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Everything belongs to the state. Ambarīṣa: The worker is supreme. Haṁsadūta: Everyone should work for the state, and the state will distribute fairly. *Kṛṣṇa*-caitanya: The basis of the philosophy is that matter is supreme. Ambarīṣa: And all matter is the same. Prabhupāda: Matter is supreme. Then why the matter does not move independently? *Kṛṣṇa*-caitanya: That they have no answer. Prabhupāda: Then? Then another rascal. If matter is supreme, why don't you combine matter and let it move. So what is that supreme which is moving this matter? If they do not know, then again a rascal, in spite of so much philosophy and so much communism. Why, when Stalin and Lenin died, they simply remained matter? Why it was not moving? Where is that matter? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That they are working on. Prabhupāda: Again the same rascal. Again another rascal. They are working; therefore we must be satisfied. Postdated check. How you say all these things? Harikeśa: Well, their philosophy is just a social philosophy. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is not perfect. Harikeśa: They say, "From everybody according to their means and to everybody according to their needs." As you work... Prabhupāda: Then why there are so many enemies? Why the Americans do not like them, Chinese do not like them? Devotee (3): Now they write in the mod... I see in the modern textbook in the Delhi schools. They make counterproposal. They said, "Because the Indian philosophy is not so perfect, India has become economically backwards on account of following the..." Prabhupāda: What economical backwards? Devotee (3): They say India is very poor country. Haṁsadūta: Khadi. *Prabhupāda: Khadi, yes. No mill*-made cloth can be used. That was Indian culture. They would not touch even foreign medicine. Dr. Bose, Kartick Chandra Bose, he told me that "You do not know how much we had to flatter to accept this British medicine." They would not touch quinine, anything foreign-made. This was Indian culture. Harikeśa: Well, the basic flaw with Indian culture is that some people are very rich and some people are very poor. Prabhupāda: No, no. Then why in your country there are hippies lying on the street? Why? Why they have accepted poverty? Harikeśa: That's a temporary thing. Prabhupāda: India is poor and rich, and why they are voluntarily poor? Harikeśa: That was because they were all intoxicated. Prabhupāda: Then you cannot say that there is no poor. There is voluntarily poor. You cannot say there is no poor. Harikeśa: Well, in our Russian system we are trying to abolish that poor by making, take money from the rich. Prabhupāda: Again that, "We are trying to abolish," the postdated check again. Ambarīṣa: In Russia, everyone is poor. Prabhupāda: Everyone is poor. Harikeśa: But at least they're equal. Prabhupāda: Well, when you become poor, then naturally it is equal. There is no rich man. Naturally you become equal. If everyone is fool, then everyone is equal. That's all. Harikeśa: But everybody in Russia is so strong. Prabhupāda: What is that strong? Ambarīṣa: They can lift all kinds of weight and fight very strongly. Very strong people. So they're not starving. Prabhupāda: No, no, they are stronger than the lions and the elephant? Are they stronger than these animals? Are they? Are the Russians stronger than the elephant and the lion? Harikeśa: But they're stronger than the Europeans. Prabhupāda: Then the lion is better than them. The elephant is better than them. Why do you call them, "They are animals"? They are better situated. One lion can kill hundreds of Russians. Then lion is better than the Russian? You have to accept that. Harikeśa: I mean, but they're not poor because they're so, you know, they're well fed. Prabhupāda: There everyone is poor, begging. You are talking theoretically. I went to Moscow. The taxi driver was wanting something excess. They are so poor, begging, "Give me something more." They are so poor. Most of the people, they are walking on the street. There is no taxi. Nobody can pay for taxi. This is their situation. Harikeśa: Yes, but why should somebody be rich and I be poor? What gives him the right to have money? Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. That is called, that... He is born in a rich family; I am born in a poor family. So why this is happening? Harikeśa: Yes, that's unfair. I mean, I should take his money. Prabhupāda: No, no, not unfair. This is nature's arrangement, uccavacca. Why one has become animal? Why one has become man? The same living entity. Harikeśa: Chance. *Prabhupāda: Again rascaldom, "chance." Who is making this chance? Can I make you by chance a dog? That is not possible. There is no such chance. It is by karma*-phala. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ. The chance is that you are rascal, fool; you do not know what chance will make me what. Just like you infect some disease; you suffer from that disease. So this happens to the rascal. One who is intelligent, he does not infect. He is always cautious. Therefore this chance of infection is not there. Actually you cannot say "chance." It is your ignorance. You create chance. Because you do not know what will happen after something, on account of ignorance it is chance. But if you are fully aware, there is no question of chance. An intelligent student, he does not think, "By chance I may be passed." He reads properly. He appears in the examination, give the proper answer. It is not chance. And if he thinks, "All right, by chance I will be passing the..." Is it very intelligent? These rascals are talking like that. There is no question of chance. On account of ignorance they commit something infectious, and they suffer. And because they cannot explain, they say it is chance. It is not chance. It is due to some cause. Harikeśa: Actually Marx was very expert at giving economic causes. For example, he said that they would start off with this capitalistic system. Prabhupāda: No, what Marx has explained that a man is born in a rich family, from the birth he is millionaire, and another man is trying whole life, but he could not secure more than his provision? That's all. Why this is here? Harikeśa: That's due to the capitalistic system. Because he is born in a certain kind of a system, then this hereditary birth and wealth comes. But that capitalistic system, if it's more in a socialistic or communistic system, then there is no possibility of that happening. So therefore this inequality doesn't exist. Prabhupāda: They are trying for the last fifty years. Why the capitalism is not yet gone? Fifty years at least. They started their movement in 1917. Huh? So how many years? More than fifty. Sixty years. Sixty years. What they have done, progress? Harikeśa: Well, actually, Russia was the wrong place for communism to go. According to Marx, Russia was the last place that should be communistic, because it was agricultural. But the first place should have been like England, Prabhupāda: So why they did not do that? Another rascaldom. Why you are taking chance in Russia, the foolish country? Harikeśa: So that when if a country like England or America would become communistic, that would be very good. Prabhupāda: Why would become? It is not the dictation of rascal Marx. Why they would? Why he is expecting like a fool like that? Why they would accept that philosophy? Harikeśa: Well, they will have to accept it. Prabhupāda: No, when they... That is another thing. Again, "they will have," future. Again rascal. Harikeśa: Because just like New York has gone become bankrupt, so all the cities will go bankrupt, and then people will not have employment. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Bankrupt does not mean their philosophy is lost. Bankrupt may be due to some other reason. That does not mean the capitalistic philosophy is finished. Harikeśa: Well, actually the communistic philosophy is strictly economic. Prabhupāda: Not actually. Don't say "actually." Sometimes you say "accidentally" and sometimes "actually." Such a rascal. (laughter) "By some chance" and sometimes "actually." Haṁsadūta: Marx's point was that the different systems, they would deteriorate one into the other, and eventually all these countries would have to... They would just evolve into that communistic way of life. That was his, his idea. Prabhupāda: No, no, then when there will be no capital, naturally they will be communistic. That's all. Nothing to eat... Haṁsadūta: So it's just some... It's not a philosophy but it's a position that one has to accept out of desperation. *Prabhupāda: So that is described in the Bhāgavatam, that they will be embarrassed with so many problems. That is not a communistic idea. That is the future of Kali*-yuga. That is mentioned in the Bhāgavatam. Āchinna-dāra-draviṇā gacchanti giri-kānanam. They will be harassed by famine, taxation, and starvation. Naturally they will be disappointed. Āchinna. That is already told. Haṁsadūta: Marx, he studied history from a given point and then he just calculated the consequences. *Prabhupāda: No, that point is not new point. It is already stated five thousand years ago. So what credit he has got? If I say, "Now you are thirty*-four years. At the end of hundred years you will die," is that discovery? Haṁsadūta: No. But that was... Prabhupāda: Everyone knows it. Everyone knows it. Haṁsadūta: But for this he's got so much credit because he said this. Prabhupāda: So he gets credit from the rascals and fools. That's all. Harikeśa: Actually, his philosophy is not something that can be put into action, but he's simply predicting what will be. *Prabhupāda: That we can say also from our Bhāgavata. That is not a very new thing. Those who are rascal, fools, for them it is new thing, and those who are student of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, it is not new point. Haṁsadūta: I think Plato also predicted. Harikeśa: Yes. Haṁsadūta: We noticed this year at the book fair that they gave so many stands to the Communist publishers. There were at least ten or fifteen stands. And formerly they were not even allowed. They were not allowed. There was not a single one. Three years ago there was not a single stand which had Communist literature in the book fair, and this year there must have been fifteen. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a worldwide trend towards communism today. Prabhupāda: Hm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a worldwide trend towards communism. In Europe, communism is becoming very strong. Italy has almost become communistic. Communist party has captured... *Kṛṣṇa*-caitanya: Portugal. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Portugal, there's a struggle going on. Even in France the Communist party is very, very strong. *Prabhupāda: Disappointment. Disappointment. People are becoming more and more poverty*-stricken. This is the... Haṁsadūta: They are forced to accept it. Prabhupāda: The European economic problem is failure. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually this oil crisis has been of great help to the Communists, because because of this oil crisis the world economy has fallen, and as people become frustrated, more and more people are turning towards communism. Prabhupāda: But what the Communist has done for the world benefit? Harikeśa: Well, it's a nice philosophy. Prabhupāda: In India there are many Communists, but the price of foodstuff increasing daily. What they can do? Haṁsadūta: Well, they say "If we were in power, this would not happen." Prabhupāda: So why don't you become in power? You are strong. And what they have done, those who are already in the power? There is no food. One has to give line for two hours to get foodstuff. I have seen in Moscow. Ambarīṣa: They don't have any food. They have to buy from the United States. *Kṛṣṇa*-caitanya: Importing from India. Prabhupāda: Yes, importing India, America. *Kṛṣṇa*-caitanya: They don't have any bananas, mangoes, nothing. Prabhupāda: So this rascaldom is going on. Haṁsadūta: People are so foolish... Prabhupāda: And people here... In the Moscow I have seen, they have no choice. You have to take whatever government supplies. Haṁsadūta: There is no food in the market. *Prabhupāda: If you want to eat something-everyone has got desire*-you cannot get. You cannot get. There is no fruit; there is no flower. Haṁsadūta: When I was there, all we could find was some potatoes, some beets, and some cabbage. That's all. Nothing else. Prabhupāda: That's all, yes. Devotee (3): Very poor country. Harikeśa: But also in Russia you can't grow many things. It's very cold. Haṁsadūta: But you can import. Prabhupāda: Therefore naturally they are condemned. Harikeśa: So when you put the communistic system somewhere where you can grow these things, it will be very nice. Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: You take that system and put it in a place where you can grow all these things. Then it will be nice. Prabhupāda: But if you bring communism, you will not be able to grow. You are condemned immediately. Nature will restrict supply. Which way? Tejās: Left, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Harikeśa: China is doing very nicely. Prabhupāda: Why not Russia? Harikeśa: Well, China has more facility to grow. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of Russian philosophy if he has no facility? Harikeśa: Well, actually it's not Russian philosophy. Chinese philosophy. I just read a report from French reporters that went into China. They say China is growing... Prabhupāda: Then it is not accident. There must be some cause. Why do you say accident? Can you say "Accidentally Chinese are better situated"? Why don't you accidentally you become better situated? Then there must be controller. Harikeśa: Mao Tse Tung. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: Mao Tse Tung. Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be, if one is better situated and another is not, there must be some management above that. Harikeśa: They say their great nationalistic spirit is holding together the country. They have a great nationalistic spirit. They are very loyal. Prabhupāda: That spirit is there amongst the dogs. (laughter) That is not very great qualification. The dog has also: "Oh, yow! Why you have come here? Gow! Gow! Gow!" That is dog spirit. This dog is going peacefully. As soon as he will see another dog, immediately fight begin. Who is this (sic:) Coppernics? Ambarīṣa: Copernicus. He was a scientist. Ancient... well, long time ago. He was the one that first said that... Haṁsadūta: He made a model of the universe, I think. Prabhupāda: What is that scientific? Haṁsadūta: He made a model of the universe. Ambarīṣa: With the sun in the center. It was a revolutionary idea. Prabhupāda: Another rascal. Harikeśa: He used to sit on top of his roof and think. Prabhupāda: And fell down? (laughter) What is this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Another (Hindi) kalākendra. Prabhupāda: Again. All kalākendra, this kendra. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's so many next to our temple. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Next to our temple there's so many kalākendras. *Kṛṣṇa*-caitanya: Kalā has another meaning of "art." Prabhupāda: [break] ...people engage in academic kalākendra, and the price of rice is rising. No rice. Rice kalā. "My dear kalākendra, can you supply me rice?" "No." (laughter) Tejās: In Bombay, even if any businessman brings more than five kgs of rice, they will seize him. They search the baggage many times in the trains at the station. Prabhupāda: You see. This is the kalākendra. Haṁsadūta: There was a political cartoon that people were shouting for food to Indira Gandhi, and the minister was saying, "The people want food." And she said, "But tomorrow we're going to have television." Prabhupāda: Television. Kalākendra. [break] ...kalākendra? This big house. Harikeśa: Rabindra... Prabhupāda: Rabindranath. Oh, he is the foremost kalā, Rabindranath Tagore. He has shown biggest kalā to the people of India. Devotee (1): Aurobindo kalākendra. Prabhupāda: Aurobindo kalā. Devotee (1): Very big. He spent a lot of money for that Victoria House. Prabhupāda: But nobody is coming there, here or there. They have big, big Rabindra kalā and nobody is trying to taste it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When they have programs, a lot of people come. Prabhupāda: That... You make any dog dance; they will come. That is not... In the name of Rabindranath Tagore... Harikeśa: That may even be Rabindranath Tagore dancing. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: When the dog is dancing, it may even be Rabindranath Tagore. Prabhupāda: Rabindranath became very popular on account of his introducing Māghmela, where young boys and girls could easily meet. Yes. (aside:) Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Haṁsadūta: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tejās: Their current exhibition is "Women in the World." Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Some exhibition is going on? Tejās: It's "Women in the World." Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughter) What is that "Women in the World"? *Ambarīṣa: Sixteen*-ounce brain, I think. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They had a world conference of women in Mexico recently, where every country sent a delegation of women. Prabhupāda: To become man? (laughter) Harikeśa: Yes, nowadays we're doing that also. Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughter) So you become woman. [break] ...here. Kalā, kalā? Tejās: Stones. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kalā means craftsmanship. Why it is not here, lacking? No money. The kalā cannot be shown without money. I never saw New Delhi in such nasty condition. Tejās: It's deteriorating. Prabhupāda: Yes, very much deteriorating. It means finished. The kalā is finished now. You see? Now, "Natural History." So many dead stone they have brought, and so costly building, and showing "natural history." This is going on, simply cheating and bluffing at the cost of poor man's blood. Against this principle the communist movement is good. There are so many buildings, but there is not a single building where spiritual culture is discussed, although it is the real basis of life. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...and not getting sufficient milk, their growth is checked. This is kalākendra. Harikeśa: They have powdered milk. Prabhupāda: That is simply cheating, powdered milk. It is white water, that's all. Powdered milk means white water. It has no value. Haṁsadūta: In Moscow too, Anand Shanti, he was telling. When we were there we wanted to buy milk, and they had milk in bottles, but he told me, he said, "This is not milk." He said "First they dehydrate it, make it to powder. Then they again add water and put it in the bottle, because in this way they can keep it a long time." So we couldn't find any real milk even in Moscow, the biggest city in the country. Prabhupāda: I think Moscow they have milk and butter. Haṁsadūta: At least when I was there we couldn't find any. Prabhupāda: Oh, then finished. All cows finished, cutting throat. Haṁsadūta: Butter they have, but it's not very good quality. Prabhupāda: Hm. Adulterate. I thought at least they have got little milk and butter, but that is also finished. [break] Tejās: ...the milkman tries to bring the cow to the āśrama, they arrest the milkman. They take his cow away from him. They don't even allow that they can bring the cow to the people any more. They seized. He lost one cow. He has to sneak the cow down the back alley so that they can bring some cow fodder in. Prabhupāda: [break] ...zation will collapse very soon, all over the world. It will collapse. Either you may bring this ism or that ism, this civilization will collapse. People will become mad, being harassed in so many ways. When one is harassed in so many problems, he commits suicide. So that position is coming. Haṁsadūta: Or he starts a war. Prabhupāda: Yes. When the government cannot adjust, they start a war. (end) Morning Walk -- November 30, 1975, Delhi Prabhupāda: ...can dance, and as soon as you say, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance," immediately they reject. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Stop. They spend hours and hours practicing how to learn to dance. They go through so much tapasya. Indian man (1): In Mauritius on Diwali there was a very big festival the government arranged. There were more than forty thousand people, and they got one singer, Mukesh, from India, especially for that program. So when he was singing everybody was making noise. As soon as the Hare Kṛṣṇa people went on the stage everybody become quiet. Everybody was clapping, they were telling. Prabhupāda: [break] Kalākendra. Here is kalākendra, there is kalākendra. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This area is full of kalākendras. Prabhupāda: This corner is something American? Tejās: This used to be the U.S.I.S. but now this is closed. This is another... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This has become another kalākendra. Tejās: This is also part of the Bharatiya kalākendra now. The U.S.I.S. used to be here, American information... [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New Delhi is a very social city. There are a lot of kalākendras so there's a lot of active... Prabhupāda: No, because the government servant, they haven't got to earn money. It is father's property. They are getting money and balance time, kalākendra. And government servant means (Hindi) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No work. Prabhupāda: No work. Especially in this country. Sixty percent of the government servants, they sleep. They do not do anything. I have seen it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're reading papers or gossiping. Prabhupāda: Gossiping, that's all. And keeping the files thrown away. If you want some reference, it will take three months. Tejās: That one devotee who was given brāhmaṇa initiation, he was working in the government. So previously he would just go in the morning, and sometimes he wouldn't even go. His section officer would go... One of them would go and punch in and the rest of the day... They have no work even. And then in the evening one has to cover the punch out. That's the only thing. Harikeśa: In the communistic system everybody works very hard. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what they claim, but everything belongs to the state. Why should they work hard? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambarīṣa: They work very hard because they have a gun pointed at their head. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now the Russians are gradually trying to change to the American system in the sense that if a worker produces more, he is given some bonus. They are trying to give incentives to the workers so that they are tempted to work hard. Prabhupāda: But what they will do with the money? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just buy a little more vodka. Ambarīṣa: Go on vacation. Prabhupāda: Then where is equality? Ambarīṣa: That's why the Chinese and the Russians don't get along. The Chinese say that the Russians have diverted from Marxism. Prabhupāda: They will have to divert because both, either Chinese or Russian, these are all rascaldom. It is not perfect system. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But the chairman of the Russian Communist Party, Mr. Brezhnev, he has about fifteen foreign cars. Each time a foreign dignitary goes, he gives him a special car. So everyone is supposed to be equal, but he is not equal. He has fifteen cars for himself. [break] Prabhupāda: ...clean city. [break] It is not the same New Delhi as five or ten years before. Huh? Tejās: Yes. Prabhupāda: How long you are here? Tejās: Five years, four and a half years. Prabhupāda: So what do you think? Tejās: Everything is deteriorating. Harikeśa: Vṛndāvana is much cleaner than this, and they are supposed to be very poor. *Prabhupāda: Because in Vṛndāvana there are less rascals and here it is full of rascals. That is the difference. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. Rascal means the nondevotees. They have no good qualification. Kuto: "Where is good qualification?" And "No, they are so civilized. They are educated." But the answer is, mano-rathena: "Whatever they may be, they are on the mental platform." Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ: "Because they are on the mental platform, certainly they will hover over the external energy. Therefore they have no good qualification." Bahir-artha-maninaḥ. Simply speculating on the external feature. Ambarīṣa: Mental platform means speculation, mental platform. Prabhupāda: That's it. Mental platform means speculation. Harikeśa: Na sukhaṁ na paraṁ gatim. Prabhupāda: Paraṁ gatim. They do not take instruction from the śāstra; therefore everything is failure. Harikeśa: Nobody seems very happy in Delhi. Prabhupāda: Neither in U.S.A. (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No one is happy in the material world. Ambarīṣa: In America there is much more violence than there is here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I read in the papers yesterday that the crime rate has gone up in United States. Prabhupāda: Yes. That must. If everyone is a criminal, so how the crime rate can decrease? Harikeśa: Everybody cheats as much as possible, on income tax and everything. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even President Nixon had cheated on his income tax return, but they caught him later on. Prabhupāda: No, it is not cheating. It is... The income tax department is a cheating department, so everyone tries to avoid this cheating department. That's it. Ambarīṣa: Yes. People hire lawyers, very expensive lawyers, just to find loopholes in their tax statements. Prabhupāda: Yes. The cheating begins from the government. They are giving some paper and asking people, "Here is ten thousand dollars." This is cheating. "I promise to pay." But when the government is failure, where is the promise? Who pays? This is cheating. Harikeśa: During the Depression that happened. People lined up for miles. During the Depression in America people lined up for miles outside of the bank, and the bank couldn't give them any money. And even if they had money, it wouldn't buy anything. Prabhupāda: That's it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Previously the governments all over the world would guarantee that for behind every currency there was certain amount of gold. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So if you went and gave that... Prabhupāda: Forty percent. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But now it's no more. Now if you go with that currency the government won't give you gold. They've reduced the gold backing behind the currency now. Every day they're reducing because when they want money they just print more notes. Prabhupāda: And you cannot hold gold also. That is illegal. Somehow or other, even if you secure gold, you cannot keep it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's that restriction in India, I think. Ambarīṣa: Now in the United States you can buy gold. They made it legal. Harikeśa: But limited quantity. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: They do not believe in the transmigration of the soul and they are "Awake." Just see these rascals. They have no preliminary knowledge even, and they are writing books, Awake. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have a very big press in New York, Jehovah Witness, Brooklyn Bridge. Harikeśa: They say the world is going to end next year. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Harikeśa: Then they also say if it doesn't end next year, that it's Biblically correct to say that it may end in three years after that. Prabhupāda: And then again seven years. Then again ten years. They are so awakened. So rascals. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can ask them to sell their press to us because the world is going to end. Prabhupāda: No, give us free. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have a huge press. Haṁsadūta: We can make a wager with them. If it doesn't end, then they have to surrender their press. Prabhupāda: How much they are in darkness, and they are making propaganda, "Awake." This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīya... One blind man is awakening other blind men. [break] ...kalākendra. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All of the kendras are supported by businessmen. They would much rather support a kalākendra rather than the temple because they think... Prabhupāda: Temple is useless now. You see, Nanda has spent so much money in that Kurukṣetra, and not a single temple. You see? Indian man (1): There is no temple in Kurukṣetra where they are worshiping Kṛṣṇa like we are worshiping. There is no temple. Harikeśa: The Gauḍīya Math? Indian man (1): Even they can't worship as we are worshiping. *Prabhupāda: How they can worship? The worship is done by devotee. Unless you create devotee, where is the question of worshiping? Without devotee it is idol worship. There is no life. And without life, how can you pull on artificially? Aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanam loka*-rañjanam. Which way I shall go? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Go to the left or... Left. [break] Harikeśa: In the back of that Awake magazine there was one little article that said that this one teacher in one college was doing yoga. He locked himself up in his room and went into a yogic trance, and they finally broke into his room two days later and found him in the same position but dead. So then they say that because he was in yogic trance that his heart was going too slow to give sufficient blood to the body, so he died. Prabhupāda: So by yoga practice he died. Harikeśa: Yes, that's what they're saying. Prabhupāda: The result is he's died. Ambarīṣa: My father, he read that article, and that's what he says to me. He says, "You do yoga and you'll end up like this man." Prabhupāda: These are government buildings. They are not properly maintained. The roads are not properly maintained. So New Delhi light is diminishing. And the shabby motor buses. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These buses are also so old. Prabhupāda: Old and creating sound so much. Tejās: They are losing several crores of rupees every year. One man told me that he rents buses to them, one of the men who came two, three days ago. So, he was telling before, he rents buses to the D.T.C., to the Delhi Transportation Corporation. He rents it to them for a rupee a kilometer and he makes about forty paisa. And even though they are getting it for a rupee a kilometer, they are still losing money on it. He is making profit and they are losing it. Because they sell the spare parts. They're so corrupt. Prabhupāda: Take away the... Tejās: Yes, the workers there... There's about sixty percent of their buses only, running. Forty percent are disabled because they are always losing the parts somehow. Prabhupāda: Just see. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also, I know, in Delhi, what the people do is... A lot of people, they don't buy the ticket. They give the conductor half the money, and so he lets them go free. Prabhupāda: Just see. Then where the income? There is no income and there is loss. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Not everyone does it, but students and a lot of young people do that. Tejās: Students coerce them. They stop the buses. If the bus driver doesn't stop, they'll break the windows and then they all get on and they ride free. They were burning many buses. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But this year, because of the emergency, everyone is behaving all right. They're scared to do anything. Prabhupāda: How by emergency you can make people honest? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This house belongs to the (name withheld). Tejās: This belongs to (name withheld)? *Prabhupāda: Yes. He has got three, four houses like that, separate, I saw, and whole day*-two hours here, two hours there, two hours there. Tejās: He had seven wives. Prabhupāda: Seven? Tejās: Seven. Prabhupāda: Just see. Tejās: A house for each wife, I think. Prabhupāda: Another madman. Tejās: All his children are avowed atheists. Prabhupāda: Means children are born by others. He feeds them. That's all. This is going on. [break] It is easily calculated that government will collapse very soon. They have made changes because they cannot manage. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also they try to change their image. They'll always... Prabhupāda: Eh? Tejās: Every six months they've been changing the ministers. Prabhupāda: That means mismanagement. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They do this all over the world. They change... Like in America, President Ford just dropped the Defense Secretary just like that. So that created such a big controversy. Haṁsadūta: I read a very interesting article, and the theme was that once a month, every month at least, one government is now collapsing or being overthrown. That was the theme of the article. Indian man (1): In U.P. they change the government after every two, three months. Yesterday also they make authorization to rule in U.P. from yesterday. They change the government like that after every few months. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now Dr. Channa Reddy must have become busy because when the presidents rule then the governor has to do some work. Otherwise in India the governors, they do no work. Indian man (1): He takes instruction from president. Haṁsadūta: In America in the upcoming elections in 1976, one of the biggest candidates is a movie actor, Ronald Reagan. Yes. Prabhupāda: For presidentship? Haṁsadūta: For presidentship. And he stands a very good chance of winning. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's governor of California. [break] The movie stars are entering into politics now. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...the government will be incompetent, the more the citizens will be exploited. Ultimately the citizens will suffer. Because they will want money and plunder the citizens, they will be disgusted. Āchinna*-dāra-draviṇ gacchanti giri-kānanam. [break] Tejās: ...tax division, the clerks will come to the various businessmen after they make their first application, and they will tell them... First they will come to them. And immediately a businessman knows, so he gives him 500,000 rupees. And he will say, "Oh, thank you very much. I just came to see you. I wanted to tell you that if you say like this, you will save ten thousand, twenty thousand rupees. But don't say when you are there that I told you." (end) Morning Walk -- December 3, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: He cannot give up this habit. A dog is made king, but he will jump and lick up the shoes. Viśāla: (in background) Glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [Break] It is the grace of Providence you do not see that it is properly cleansed. Viśāla: I'm sorry. I will see to that... Prabhupāda: Yes. Viśāla: Your Divine Grace. That is my fault. Prabhupāda: Why there is water? This water means the shoes, dirt, it will be dirty. So you have no eyes to see? Viśāla: I am blind. I am sorry. I will see that it is cleaned for you. Prabhupāda: Then become with eyes. Simply praying, what you will do? Do something practical. Harikeśa: This is the argument people always throw against us. "Simply praying, what will you do? Do something practical." They say this all the time. Prabhupāda: Everyone will say that. *Devotee or Vraja*-vāsī: Haribol! *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. So they are guests. They are coming. Kṛṣṇa says everything practical. He never says that "You press your nose and everything will come." He never said like that. "You become a yogi by pressing your nose, and keep your head downward, and then you'll become perfect and everything will come." He never says. And Arjuna also never accepts anything impractical. That is Bhagavad*-gītā. As soon as Kṛṣṇa said that "You practice yoga by this way " immediately Kṛṣṇa said "My dear Kṛṣṇa it is not possible, for me. I cannot control my mind." Vāyor eva suduskara. "It is impossible as to control the air." If somebody says, "I shall control the air..." So these things are there in the Bhagavad-gītā, all practical. Kṛṣṇa was accepted the Supreme Lord by His practical instruction and practical features. They are not following Kṛṣṇa themselves also. That is the difficulty. [break] What is going on here? [Break] Private. Huh? *Indian man: Rudra*-yajña. (Bengali) *Prabhupāda: Somebody is exploiting. Rudra*-yajña. [break] ...any mention of Rudra-yajña? In the Bhagavad-gītā the word is yajña. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra. Where is Rudra-yajña? (Hindi) Harikeśa: How does one stop cheating in a world of cheats? Prabhupāda: This material world is meant for cheating. You cheat, and others will cheat you. That's all. This is material world. It is not "how?" If you inquire, "How it is cold?"... The season is cold. There is no question of how. The place is for cheating and cheaters. So there is no question, "How it is cheating?" Harikeśa: So you can't stop the cold. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: You can't stop the cheaters. *Prabhupāda: No. Yes, it is not possible. But you can do everything by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the advantage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. You cannot get out of sinful action, but Kṛṣṇa can do it. Therefore He says, "I'll get you released." You cannot get released; therefore He says, "I'll do that." Harikeśa: So bringing it to a practical platform... Prabhupāda: Practical means it will be done by Kṛṣṇa. Your only business is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. You cannot do anything. And as soon as you think that "I shall be able to do it," then you are a rascal. Immediately you are rascal. Harikeśa: So only a fully surrendered soul can do everything perfectly. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: A fully surrendered soul is the only one who can do things perfectly. Prabhupāda: He cannot do anything, even in his... Everything is to be done by Kṛṣṇa. But he has to apply his intelligence by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even if he is intelligent, he cannot do anything. Harikeśa: Except surrender. Prabhupāda: Yes. He can surrender, and Kṛṣṇa will do everything. You have to act very sincerely under the direction of Kṛṣṇa, and then the war will be successful, as Arjuna did. Harikeśa: So imperfect activity is a sign of lack of surrender. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...avaśya rakṣibe kṛṣṇa. Rakṣiṣyati iti viśvāsa*-pālanam. You work sincerely, devoutly, and have faith that "Kṛṣṇa will save me from all dangers." Rakṣiṣyati iti viśvāsa-pālanam. "I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa sincerely. Now Kṛṣṇa will give me all protection." This faith, that is the beginning of devotional life. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Faith. Harikeśa: So this faith, is this śraddhā or niṣṭha? Prabhupāda: Śraddhā. Beginning, śraddhā. Then, when he is advanced, then he becomes fixed up. "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is protecting me." [break] ...that here is some goddess Kali, and nobody is living here. Harikeśa: No, and then they worship in that temple. That's a temple there. Prabhupāda: Oh. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. No, the road is, er, gate is closed. [break] People in general, they take that "There is no God, and if there is God, He is now dead." This is general impression. Harikeśa: There is one nice thing I saw on one wall. It says, "God is dead. Nietzche "And then right underneath it somebody wrote, "Nietzche is dead. God." Prabhupāda: Nietzche? Nietzche means? Harikeśa: Nietzche, that philosopher. He was the one who first... Prabhupāda: (Aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Yes. Harikeśa: Nietzche first brought up the philosophy of "Everything is nothing," for the Western people. "It's all nothing. It all ultimately boils down to nothing. So there is no possibility of God." *Prabhupāda: Śūnyavādī. Śūnyavādī. That is śūnyavādī. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādī. Śūnyavādī, they say, "There is no God, and there is nothing, fact. Everything is combination of some illusory things." This is śūnyavādī. And the Māyāvādī, they say, "Yes, there is God, but He has no form." Therefore we have to kill both of them. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavād*-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe. The whole Western world are filled up with these śūnyavādi and impersonalists. India is also nowadays, but there are, still there are devotees in the ācārya-sampradāya. They are fighting against śunyavāda and nirviśeṣa. Harikeśa: In South India I think a lot of the Rāmānuja followers are. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Akṣayānanda: If everything was void, then there would be no hope for living. So might as well die. Prabhupāda: No. By combination, permutation, you create, and if you don't want it, then avoid this combination. [break] Even in four o'clock time, visiting, if he comes at four o'clock, you let him come in. [break] ...Gurukula we require teachers for teaching the small children. So our, these girls, they cannot take this charge of teaching? Akṣayānanda: Yes, one is already teaching now. One is already teaching children now, one girl. Prabhupāda: Who is he? Akṣayānanda: Her name is Ruth. She's English. Every afternoon she teaches the children. Prabhupāda: Indian? Akṣayānanda: No, English. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's also one in Bombay. She used to be a public school teacher in England. After the school is open she can come over here. And there's one in Māyāpur, but she's teaching in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Similarly, other girls, they can take up this. Akṣayānanda: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...our guest. Because somebody is guest, paying guest, therefore we shall admit anyone in any kind of dress? Akṣayānanda: No. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't admit people who look like hippies or something. Akṣayānanda: That girl, I told her she had to wear a sari. And she did for some time, but then again she stopped. Prabhupāda: That I am speaking, that sa yadi krīyate rāja. Akṣayānanda: Due to habit. Prabhupāda: Sakrn nasnuta pahanam (?) That is the difficulty. It will be very bad example. People will think... They already thinking that "These are all hippies." That will minimize the prestige of the temple. [break] Jaipuria House they do not allow any hippies. You know that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaipuria does not allow any foreigners at all. They don't allow any foreigners at all, even if somebody is decently dressed. Akṣayānanda: One boy came a couple of weeks ago. He had long hair. But the next day he came back and shaved up. He's a devotee now. He's doing nicely. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Akṣayānanda: So they will still come. They can become devotees. It's all right then. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Akṣayānanda: ...doing, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If they come and they have long hair but if there's a chance they might become devotees, I tell them they must tie up their hair in such a way that you cannot see it. Prabhupāda: That's all right. If many comes like that to become devotee, then it becomes a devotee place, er, hippie place. You give them chance to become a devotee. In the meantime, it will be known as a hippie resort. Harikeśa: That's always been a problem here. Prabhupāda: It is no problem. You can allow for three days only. If he does not change his habit, then he must go. Akṣayānanda: Yes. all right. [break] Prabhupāda: ...was in the beginning allowing, but they saw some disadvantage. Therefore they have stopped. [break] ...our Dhanañjaya? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's sick. Prabhupāda: Every morning he is sick. Harikeśa: He had typhoid. Prabhupāda: Typhoid? Harikeśa: Yes. (end) Morning Walk -- December 4, 1975, Våndävana Bhāvānanda: Someone had mentioned that we should start up in Bihar and come down into Bengal. Prabhupāda: Do you think if they go to Orissa it will be nice? No? The saṅkīrtana party. Akṣayānanda: Orissa will be nice? Prabhupāda: So you talk with him. Bhāvānanda: Yes. [break] Akṣayānanda: ...say to me what do I think of Pāgal Bābā? And I would say, "Well, our Guru Mahārāja does not approve of us smoking cigarettes." And they will say, "But he smokes cigarettes." And I would say, "That is because he is pāgal." And they would agree. [break] Prabhupāda: These four principles will make so many bogus bābās as useless, simply if you follow these four principles. [break] Akṣayānanda: ...that Rāmacandra ate meat. Some people have said to me... *Prabhupāda: Rāmacandra can eat you and the whole universe. (laughter) Can you do that? By... Even Rāmacandra used to eat meat, so you can simply imitate for meat*-eating. But why don't you imitate how to construct a bridge over the ocean? Why don't you say that Rāmacandra constructed a bridge on the ocean. Can you do that? Akṣayānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Then you are rascal. *Akṣayānanda: But in the Bhagavad*-gītā it says, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas [Bg. 3.21]. Whatever the great men do, you must follow in their footsteps. *Prabhupāda: Yes. By their instruction, not by their activities. You should follow the instruction, not the activities. Has Kṛṣṇa said anything that "You also act rāsa*-līlā like Me?" Has said? Akṣayānanda: Never. *Prabhupāda: Then how you can? These rascals, these Māyāvādīs, they play rāsa*-līlā. [break] ...ācarati śreṣṭhas means that śreṣṭha is ordinary person, but not Bhagavān. Bhagavān can act any way. And still, Bhagavān has never instructed you that "You imitate Me in raising the Govardhana Hill." Has He said like that, that "You also raise the Govardhana Hill like Me"? [break] ...orders man-manā bhava mad-bhakto ṁad-yājī mām. That is for you. Always think of Him. Always become His devotee. Worship Him. Offer your obeisances. That's all. That is for you. Yasodamayi was asking Kṛṣṇa, "My dear Kṛṣṇa, can you bring the slipper of Your father?" He could not. He was a small child. Still, with great difficulty He could raise that. But the person who can raise the Govardhana Hill, He was feeling difficulty to raise the slipper? Why? If at that time He becomes like Govardhana, Giridhārī, then the līlā between father and son will be damaged. He plays just like a child. Although He can raise even in that age, to raise the hill. One should understand Kṛṣṇa. Everyone compares Him with ordinary man: "Kṛṣṇa has done this? Then I shall do." Kṛṣṇa has done so many other things. Why don't you do it? This rascal... Anyone who imitates Kṛṣṇa on the plea that "Kṛṣṇa has played this; therefore we shall do." He can do anything. He can eat meat and He can eat the whole universe. That was shown to His mother: "Mother, you are angry because I have eaten dirt. Now see within My mouth the whole universe is in. So what is the question of dirt and sea and ocean? I can eat everything." [break] ...sam na doṣāya. Just like this sun. It dry up this urine. It is not infected. But you lick up this urine and let us see how powerful you are. Tejasaṁ na doṣāya. Who is powerful, he can do anything and everything, whatever he likes. You cannot do that. [break] ...example. This urine, within an hour it will be dried up. How it is dried up? Due to the sun. But the sun is not polluted. But you try to dry up and see the result. Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Wasn't it Lord Rāmacandra's purpose to actually display by His activity how a perfect human being should act? Prabhupāda: Who said? Hari-śauri: Well, I understood that that verse, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas [Bg. 3.21], that was referring to Lord Rāmacandra. Prabhupāda: Everyone is referred, but whatever Rāmacandra says, you should do that. You should not imitate. There are two words: following and imitating. Imitation is not good. Following is good. Yad yad ācarati zreṣ... You can... That I have already explained. Can you construct a bridge on the ocean? You are claiming, yad yad acarati. Can you do this? Then why do you say like that? You cannot imitate. You can follow only. "Because Rāmacandra ate meat, so I am eating meat. I become Rāmacandra." And why don't you construct a bridge on the ocean? Akṣayānanda: So actually, perfect kings, they may have eaten meat? Perfect kings... Prabhupāda: No, perfect king must follow the Vedic injunction. Akṣayānanda: They would never eat meat, even though they are kṣatriyas. *Prabhupāda: No, kṣatriyas are allowed. That is by hunting, not otherwise. Or yajña. Everything is there in the śāstra. [break] ...candra, even He was eating meat, is there any instance in the temple Rāmacandra is offered meat? Then why do you claim, "Rāmacandra used to eat meat, therefore I shall eat"? All rascals. Kṛṣṇa, He ate fire, khāṇḍava*-dāna. But what He asked you to offer? Does He says that "You offer Me fire"? He says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Does He say that "You give Me fire. I shall eat"? *Akṣayānanda: You mean He eats fire in His representation as the fire*-god? *Prabhupāda: No representation. As He is. He never assumed as fire*-god. He was boy and playing, and there was fire and He ate it. That is God, not that He became a fire-god. What is fire-god? Thousands of fire-gods are staying on the nail of His feet. Why He should become a fire-god? Mahat-padam. Kṛṣṇa's another name is mahat-padam. The whole energy of material world is on His feet. Samāsrit ye pada-pallava-plava mahat-pada puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ. So they attend maṅgala-arati? Guṇārṇava: Yes. Prabhupāda: They do? Devotee: Yes, they do. Prabhupāda: Very good. [break] ...there are cycles. The cycles are more dangerous than the motor car. Haṁsadūta: Because you can't hear them. Prabhupāda: No, no, hear... Gives you dash. You see? From the behind. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...God, they do like that. They give this example, "In such and such yajña, ṛṣis were eating meat; therefore we shall eat meat." In the Rāmakrishna Mission, sannyāsīs, they say like that. (end) Morning Walk -- December 7, 1975, Våndävana Aksayānanda: ...from Agra came yesterday, Prabhupāda. He wants to live with us. He knows Hindi. He's a teacher. He's a doctor. He's a writer. He's very, very nice. I'll bring him to you today. Prabhupāda: He knows English also? Aksayānanda: English very well. Very humble and he wants to teach. If he can stay in Vṛndāvana I think it will be very, very beneficial for us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Aksayānanda: Wonderful. I'll bring him this morning if it's all right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Aksayānanda: Jaya. He bows down. He pays dandavats. He said, "You're a sannyāsī, so I must respect. I'm only a gṛhastha." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the duty. Aksayānanda: And he is also very intelligent. He's not just doing it out of sentiment. Very nice man. Older man. Prabhupāda: If a sannyāsī is not offered respect, the punishment is that he should fast one day. That is śāstric injunction. Gunarnava: What is the punishment if one doesn't fast? Prabhupāda: You must go to hell. (laughter) [break] Aksayānanda: ...also come two or three times before over the months, so I know he is serious. Prabhupāda: Let him come. Aksayānanda: Yes, he's very nice. Prabhupāda: What is his age? Aksayānanda: I think he's about... He's getting on. He's fifty, sixty. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Then he should retire. Aksayānanda: Yes. His wife has, I think, expired, so he has no problem there. And he looked in our āśrama, and he likes it inside there. He's prepared to live with brahmacārīs and so on. Very good man. His name is Mr. Ugrasena. [break] ...much colder today. Prabhupāda: Yes, and it will increase. Yes. In December January it will be very cold. Aksayānanda: Yes. It'll be almost twice as cold. [break] Prabhupāda: ...middle of January, there will be cloud, rain. You have no experience, last winter, anyone? Huh? Aksayānanda: Yes, I have. Still, if we're sincere we'll stay in Vṛndāvana even if blood and stool comes from the sky, if you want. Prabhupāda: Why do you expect that? [break] ...capati, you apply little ghee? Aksayānanda: For the guests. Prabhupāda: And not for you? Aksayānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Aksayānanda: Because it's very expensive and not necessary. Prabhupāda: No. Aksayānanda: If you say it is necessary, we will do. Prabhupāda: No, in this season it is necessary. Aksayānanda: Very nice. We'll do. That is nice. A little more ghee should be there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Aksayānanda: A little more grain. Even little grain at night is all right, I think. Prabhupāda: No, you must eat properly. Aksayānanda: Yes. Then we'll do it. Prabhupāda: And try to keep some cows. Aksayānanda: Accha. *Prabhupāda: Yes. On the other land. Make a shed immediately and keep some cows. And Viśvambhara, he is experienced. He will help. [break] ...necessary vairāgya, there is no need. We don't approve that. Yuktāhāra*-vihāras ca. What you require for keeping health but not to eat too much. But what is absolutely required must be done. Aksayānanda: I heard that if you pass stool more than once a day you become a bhogī? You are called a bhogī? Prabhupāda: Yes. Aksayānanda: Does that mean a serious devotee should only pass stool once a day? Prabhupāda: Don't artificially do that. (laughter) First of all become yogi. Then do it. Aksayānanda: Yes. Of course, it can only be done by Kṛṣṇa's mercy, but one should at least try for that. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Don't try for passing stool once. (laughter) That does not make you a yogi. *Bhavananda: Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad*-gatenāntarātmanā [Bg. 6.47]. Prabhupāda: Antara... Yes. That makes you yogi, not by passing stool. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Huh? Harikesa: That will be it? The scientist and the egg? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikesa: Okay. Prabhupāda: You know that? What is that article? Aksayānanda: The one you heard last night? Prabhupāda: No. When I was in South America I saw that... Harikesa: South Africa. Prabhupāda: South Africa. There are many factories for chicken killing. So I suggested that the egg, you can analyze, find out the chemicals and... Aksayānanda: Create one. Prabhupāda: Create one egg. That was my proposal. So he is going to create. (laughter) He'll explain how to create egg from... Aksayānanda: From chemicals. Jnana: And make chicken. Harikesa: Calcium phosphate and a little sulphur for the yellow, make some color, and cover it in plastic and put it in an incubator and let a chicken grow. Prabhupāda: And you eat. Aksayānanda: That will be a nice article. Harikesa: And if they can, they can beat us on the face with shoes, and if they can't, we can beat them on the face with shoes. Aksayānanda: Well, that's another thing. [break] Prabhupāda: ...ly regret is that these rascals are going as scientists and big men. Simply talk. They cannot create. It is very simple thing. Put some chemicals together and if you know the chemicals, then why don't you put it? And incubator put, then you don't require to kill so many chicken. [break] Alanath: In Sweden when you go on the street and you preach, "Everybody must suffer here," they don't believe because everybody got an apartment. They have never seen a poor man or a starving cow. Prahupada: But he is himself a poor man. Alanath: In Sweden... Prabhupāda: But he has no knowledge to understand it. Why he is falling down from the skyscraper and killing himself? Why? A poor man commits suicide. So if he is committing suicide he is a poor man. He is a poor man. He falsely thinking that he is rich man. Alanath: We're printing now a book there with all the talks according to the scientists and according to the Christian philosophy what was lately in the Back to Godheads in America. Prabhupāda: Don't write anything nonsense. It must be very solid. Otherwise, you'll be laughing stock. What you'll say, it must... Alanath: No, just the talks you make. Just your conversations. Aksayānanda: Your lectures only. Prabhupāda: Oh. That's all right. One must be confident before challenging others. Not that theoretical. Challenge is no good. In all stages he must be able to defend himself from the opposing elements. Then such challenge is all right. [break] We are confident that this soul cannot be manufactured by any material combination. Therefore we can challenge. And I can defend ourself in any stage. [break] Cānā, cānā? Aksayānanda: Channā? Prabhupāda: Not cchana but cānā. Cānaka dāhl? Aksayānanda: Oh, cānā dāhl, yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Cānā dāhl is good nowadays. Aksayānanda: Chick pea dahl for winter. Prabhupāda: Mixed with little uraḍ dāhl, then it will be very palatable and very beneficial. Aksayānanda: For at lunchtime? Prabhupāda: Yes. Aksayānanda: Yes. Very good. [break] ...dāhl will give you as much energy as eggs will any time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Aksayānanda: Practically the same thing. Prabhupāda: It contains protein. Harikesa: Actually it's a wonderful challenge. This big, big scientist, big, big brain... Prabhupāda: Big, big monkey. (laughter) "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." Harikesa: And we walk in and put an egg in front of him. Prabhupāda: You do not know this? Baro baro bandolel, baro baro peṭ laṅkā dingate, matakare het.(?) (laughter) This translation was done by one big professor, of President's College, Professor Rowe. He was a big professor in the President's College. So these professors required to learn Bengali, so he translated, "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping melancholy." [break] Alanath: There's some countries in Europe where they have absolute laws against selling books in the street. In these countries do we have to make something secret to sell your books? Prabhupāda: Secret? Why? Alanath: Because otherwise they would immediately put you in prison. Prabhupāda: Where? Here in India? Alanath: No. In Europe, like in Switzerland. But when we go there for selling books people take them like anything, but you have to hide before the police very carefully. Prabhupāda: Why? Why don't you take permission from the court? Alanath: No. It's not possible. Akṣayānanda: Have you applied? Alanath: They have very strict laws. It's also been applied for. Prabhupāda: No, you have to prove: "This is very important book of knowledge, so allow us a special." Alanath: It's especially different if foreigners try to sell a book there. And we have... Like in Austria we have no Austrian devotees there. Akṣayānanda: They think it's an invasion. Alanath: Yes. We used to go there sometimes, and it was very good. People took many many books, but sometimes they caught us, so... Prabhupāda: No, if they caught, go to the jail and when there is trial you should explain that "This is very important book. The government should allow to sell." Alanath: If the policemen liked us, but the law is strict. Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to take defense from the law. You present in the court the professors' opinion, how they are giving standing order. Why the state should restrain distributing knowledge? Do they want to keep their men in darkness? You have to preach like that. [break]...University is the most important university in Europe. They read our books. They order standing order. So why this loafer state prohibit? Alanath: ...these explanations, they always argue, "If we allow you to sell your books, then we must allow everybody to sell on the street." *Prabhupāda: No. But you must consider the importance of... [break] Everybody submits application for becoming high*-court judge. Will it be granted? There must be discrimination. [break] Thank you very much for your kindness. Yes. I am very pleased. Thank you. (end) Morning Walk -- December 9, 1975, Våndävana Akṣayānanda: Sometimes I think our big building is too much Westernized. Disturbs the atmosphere. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Akṣayānanda: Like you wrote in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta that when Caitanya Mahāprabhu had many disciples behind him, He was criticized that He should not take them to Vṛndāvana. It might disturb the nice atmosphere. We have to be careful that we don't disturb with our big buildings and things. [break] Prabhupāda: ...transform into a nice park this space. [break] Akṣayānanda: Did Giridhārīlal see you last night, from the Mathurā Janmasthān? [break] ...influence Dalmia, but I don't know. We haven't seen any results yet regarding the gośālā. [break] Prabhupāda: ...sandy. We want to avoid this sandy. Harikesa: We should go back up, then. [break] Devotee: The people here say that this is the Raman Reti. This is the place, the most sacred spot where Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma would come. Prabhupāda: Hm. [break] ...panot. (loud squawking of birds) Harikesa: [break]...and went back to civilized life. (Hindi) (end) Morning Walk -- December 10, 1975, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: The rascals should not do that. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, nāmāśraya kari thākaha āpana kārye. You do your work but take shelter of hari*-nama. That is wanted. Devotee (1): So simple. Prabhupāda: So simple, yes. (Bengali) Nāmāśraya kari, thākaha āpana karye. "Go on with your duty, prescribed duty, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." [break] Akṣayānanda: I was recently told by one devotee that the ācārya does not have to be a pure devotee. Prabhupāda: What? Akṣayānanda: That the ācārya does not have to be a pure devotee. Prabhupāda: Who is that rascal? Akṣayānanda: Well, he said it. Who said it? Prabhupāda: Who said? Who is that rascal? The ācārya does not require to be a pure devotee? *Akṣayānanda: He said it. Nitāi said it. He said it in this context. He said that Lord Brahm is the ācārya in the Brahma*-sampradāya, but yet he is sometimes afflicted by passion. So therefore he is saying that it appears that the ācārya does not have to be a pure devotee. So it does not seem right. Prabhupāda: So who is that rascal? I want to know who has said. Akṣayānanda: Nitāi. Nitāi dāsa. Harikeśa: Nitāi said that? Prabhupāda: Who is Nitāi dāsa? Harikeśa: Our Nitāi. Akṣayānanda: Nitāi. Prabhupāda: Oh, our Nitāi? Oh. Akṣayānanda: He said he couldn't understand it, but he thought, he said that he thought... Prabhupāda: He manufactured his idea. Therefore he's a rascal. Therefore he's a rascal. Nitāi has become an authority? Akṣayānanda: No, actually he said that he thought... Prabhupāda: He thought something rascaldom, and he is expressing that. Therefore he is more rascal. These things are going on. As soon as he reads some books, he becomes an ācārya, whatever rascal he may be. Akṣayānanda: So there's no doubt that Lord Brahm is a pure devotee? Prabhupāda: Whatever he may be, he is ācārya. So you... Then Kṛṣṇa is also passionate. Kṛṣṇa is also passionate. Kṛṣṇa danced with so many gopīs; therefore He is passionate. They... These things are to be seen in this way, that "Such exalted person, he sometimes become passionate, so how much we shall be careful." This is the instruction. Then we petty things, petty persons, how much we shall be careful. It is not that "Ācārya has become passionate, therefore I shall become passionate. I am strict followers of ācārya." These rascals say. Harisauri: So Lord Brahma's being attracted to his daughter, that is just as an example... Prabhupāda: So why you discuss this? Therefore you shall be attracted with your daughter, mother? Do you think so, like that? Akṣayānanda: No. Indian man: In this world this is our disease. This is our disease. Prabhupāda: Yes. That disease... Brahma... Lord Śiva also, he was attracted to the Mohinī. So they are īśvara. They are controllers. So the instruction is that even such personalities may be sexually attracted, so how much we shall remain careful. This is the instruction. [break] ...like the other rascal. Who was saying that "Kṛṣṇa was killed by a hunter; therefore hunter is greater than Kṛṣṇa"? Indian man: Raja Gopalācārya, he has written in *Mahābhārata* that Kṛṣṇa was killed by a hunter. Prabhupāda: Therefore the hunter is... Indian man: "Kṛṣṇa Passes Away," the heading of his chapter. Harikeśa: You said about a couple of years ago that "What ordinary man would be killed if he was shot in the arrow by a heel," I mean, "shot in the heel by an arrow?" No ordinary man dies that way. Prabhupāda: So who reads Raja Gopalācārya's *Mahābhārata*? (laughter) They are rotting at Bharatiya Vidyabhavan. Akṣayānanda: They're rotting in the bookshelves and the insects are eating. Indian man: But in Somanath... I went last year there when I was in Gujarat. The people, they don't believe, the people of Somanath, that he was killed by... like that. So these philosophers, simply for their name, they put some kind of theories so that people can, "Oh!" They can understand all this nonsense. [break] Prabhupāda: These pastimes of Kṛṣṇa is to make the fools more fool. One who is thinking of Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man, Kṛṣṇa is playing this part to show them, "Yes, see. I am dying, this. You see." Indian man: What He said? Avajānanti mā mūḍhāḥ. *Prabhupāda: Mūḍha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20]. He'll remain mūḍha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20]. This is this pastime. Life after life, he shall remain a fool, rascal. So this Raja Gopalācārya and company, they'll remain in darkness life after life. For them this pastime is there. Avajānanti mā mūḍh mānusīm tanum āśritaḥ: "The rascals, they think of Me as ordinary human being." To such rascals, He is playing like: "Yes, you see I am ordinary human being. Just see. I am dying." This is... To keep them life after life in darkness. If it is so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa, that He is dying*-Acchā. "I have read it. I have seen. He has died." Then what is the use of saying, manuṣyāṇā sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]? Out of many millions of persons one can understand Kṛṣṇa. Then what is the use of saying this? If it is so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa, what He is doing, what for He is doing, then everyone could understand Kṛṣṇa. Then what is the use of saying, manuṣyāṇā sahasreṣu? This requires intelligence. Indian man: Bahūnā janmanām. Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā: [Bg. 4.34] "One who knows, go and understand from them, from the guru." Don't make your interpretation, rascal. You shall remain always a rascal. Then what is the use of all these verses? If it is so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa then why Kṛṣṇa says, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevaya: "Then you will understand. Go to the right person who has seen." *Indian man: But the rascal philosophers, they have put in their book that you don't need to go to a spiritual master. Like one lady, she is staying in our temple now. She is a life member from, I think from Kanpur. So I was discussing with her yesterday. She said that "Your devotees, they are forcing me," that she should accept Śrīla Prabhupāda as spiritual master. She said, "No. I know Kṛṣṇa. I am reading Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam." And she told me that she has read in the book that one not need to go to spiritual master. Prabhupāda: But what she is? Why she is staying here? Huh? You have asked them to go? No? Akṣayānanda: This is the first I have heard of it. Indian man: I am going to tell her to go if she will not... She told me... Akṣayānanda: I never heard this before. Prabhupāda: No, no. No. Is she is staying there as a paying guest or what? Indian man: No, she want... She paid us eleven hundred rupees in Kanpur and, I don't know... The devotees, they promised her she can come and she can stay in our temple but they never told her the four regulative principles and to accept the guru. Prabhupāda: No, no. Akṣayānanda: No, that is not true. Indian man: So she wants the money back. Prabhupāda: So give. Give her back. Akṣayānanda: She can have it back. That's no problem. Indian man: So she should go. Prabhupāda: Give her back. So why don't you give and immediately? Akṣayānanda: Yes, I will give her. She never asked me. I didn't know this. Indian man: She asked Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, I think. So we will arrange. She should go, you know. She made a great confusion yesterday. Akṣayānanda: That's all right. Let her have. Prabhupāda: Let her return the receipt or give a receipt and let her go away. Nobody can stay more than three days. Indian man: Yes. We will do that. Akṣayānanda: That we are doing. Prabhupāda: She can come, but not more than three days in a month. [break] Harikeśa: ...rascals will use any excuse to reject all of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: That is atheism or demonism. [break] Harikeśa: Chinmayananda, when he lectures, he only lectures on the verses that are important. He says all the other ones, they're not really important. He picks out the ones that count. Prabhupāda: So why don't you cut his head and say that "It is not important. You are talking nonsense. Cut your head." Indian man: He don't give any commentary on verses, even important commentary, he speak all nonsense. Prabhupāda: No, therefore you say, "This head is not required. You are talking nonsense," and cut his head. Akṣayānanda: No one knows what he's talking about anyway. Harikeśa: Especially him. Akṣayānanda: Yes. No one can say. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...become a problem for all these rascals, that we are presenting Bhagavad*-gīta As It Is. That they are feeling that "If this movement goes on, then we are all finished." Devotee (2): Out of work. Akṣayānanda: Their profession is at stake. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. Yes. Devotee (2): One Māyāvād sannyāsī, he wrote a book, "Be Your Own Guru," and he said you can... Prabhupāda: So why do you write book? Devotee (2): Yes, he is being guru. He is teaching them to do without a guru. Prabhupāda: Let everyone become his guru. Why you write books? Indian man: ...one book that one should not write a book without the permission of a spiritual master. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You'll find in today's tape that Prahlāda Mahārāja recommending, that "Spiritual life begins by guru-śuśruṣaḥ, by serving guru." [break] ...Gosvāmi said, ādau gurvāśrayam: "The first beginning is to take shelter of the bona fide spiritual master." Sad*-dharma-pracchāt: "Then inquire from him about the spiritual path." Sādhu-mārgānugamanam: "Follow the previous ācāryas." These are the steps. Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna said, śiṣyas te 'ha śādhi mām: "Now I become Your disciple. Teach me." And these rascals are more than Arjuna-"There is no need of guru." Huh? He says, śiṣyas te 'ham [Bg. 2.7]. Why? He was already friend. Why he should submit himself as disciple? That is the beginning of spiritual life. Indian man: Somebody put a question to Bhagavan Rajneesh that "you claim that you are God. Can you show us your universal form?" He said, "Well, I can show you. First you come like an Arjuna. First you become Arjuna. Then I can show you a universal form." Prabhupāda: So he admits that much. Akṣayānanda: That he cannot. Indian man: No, he admits that he can, but he has put... Prabhupāda: "So that's all right. Have you shown anyone your universal form amongst so many, your disciples? Have you shown?" The next question should be like that. Indian man: He never asked. I was hearing tape in one life member's house. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, if... You learn that, "Have you shown ever your universal form to any one of your disciples?" Indian man: There was not such intelligent person to ask this. Prabhupāda: That is the... Say. Indian man: So we have to ask that. (laughter) Prabhupāda: If he says, "No, none of my students are efficient," "Then why you are preaching? If you cannot make any one of your students as efficient, then why you are preaching, wasting your time?" No, no, these rascal, they, their face should not be seen even. They are so fallen. Indian man: But now they all afraid from your stick. Prabhupāda: Stick? Indian man: Prabhupāda, they all thought many times that "Prabhupāda he criticize us." You know, they say. We said, "Yes, you are made to be criticized." *Devotee (3): Your stick is Bhagavad*-gīta As It Is. Prabhupāda: They say? They say? Indian man: Oh, yes. In Mauritius there are many cults. So they invited us, I went to two, three. So they asked me that "We are coming many temple. You people, why not you come?" I said, "Well, whenever you invite us, we are ready to come, but you accept our philosophy." So they said, "How we can accept your philosophy? Prabhupāda, he, wherever, he say that all the other are Māyāvādī. All other are rascal." (laughter) "Well, Kṛṣṇa has said that. Prabhupāda is not doing that. Kṛṣṇa said who don't accept Him, he is mūḍha; he is rascal. So Prabhupāda is giving as it is, whatever Kṛṣṇa has said." Oh, they were... Prabhupāda: No... [break] Kṛṣṇa said, "The rascals do not surrender to Me." So as soon as we see somebody not Kṛṣṇa conscious, we call him rascal. So what is the wrong there? Indian man: It is not wrong. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, na mā duṣkṛtino mūḍhā prapadyante narādhamāḥ. So we find out rascals, if he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious. So what is our fault? Kṛṣṇa says this is the test to find out who is a rascal. And who is rascal? Who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a rascal. So if you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, you are a rascal. We have to see through the śāstra characteristic of a rascal, that he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's all. We may be fool, but we take lesson from Bhagavad*-gītā. That's all. And from the lesson we understand you are rascal number one." That's all. Indian man: Tilaka's(?) wife, she told me... She was very upset you know. One day she, when she came to see you and that one rascal yogi was there and he said that in the *Vedas* everything is mentioned that we can drink and woman and the man have equal right. Then you answered her, and she was also saying the same thing and you answered her, "Okay, if woman and the man have equal right, then why not your husband begot the children... Why not you begot the children in the womb of your husband?" And she was very upset, you know. She said, "Prabhupāda sometimes say the things like that which are unreasonable, you know." Prabhupāda: It may require... No, I said that "If you are equal rights, then make some arrangement: sometimes you become pregnant; sometimes he becomes pregnant. Why there is not right, equal right?" Indian man: She was telling me when... She... I said that "Prabhupāda sometimes says these things that we feel all ashamed, you know, because..." Devotee (2): The medicine is not always palatable for these people. Prabhupāda: But in speaking spiritual understanding we cannot make any compromise. What to speak of in Mauritius, in Chicago I told. There was great agitation in papers. Harikeśa: In the TV, on television. Indian man: Same thing? Devotee (2): In France also. *Prabhupāda: They were very upset. And when I was coming, I think, in Chicago, in the airplane, one of the host girl, she was seeing... (laughter) I asked her to supply one 7*-up. And, "I have no key." She was so angry. But all the captains and others, they gathered around me. (laughter) Harikeśa: I think that was the same stewardess who came in the back and asked us, "Why the Swamiji doesn't like women?" *Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't say that I don't like women, but I cannot say that equal rights. How can I say? First of all show that you equal rights*-your husband becomes sometimes pregnant and then you become pregnant, alternately. Akṣayānanda: That doesn't mean you don't like them. Prabhupāda: No, it is truth. I am speaking the truth, that "If you have equal right, then let your husband become pregnant. Make some arrangement." Harikeśa: Viśākhā was preaching to her. She said that "Actually we are less intelligent." (laughter) That started a big scandal... Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] They are in equal right, then... Nowadays, of course, they are thinking like that, that man should remain independent, and they'll have homosex, and the woman also independent and they will make some... This is most immoral things. Indian man: If only people think that they have equal right... Prabhupāda: Where is equal right? Even in Russia there is no equal rights. They have created some of them are managers, and some of them are workers. Why? If equal rights, then everyone should be manager. Harikeśa: Well, in America they have women senators now. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: Women senators, women are in charge of companies sometimes. Indian man: No, in India there are two women. They are high commissioners of India to the foreign countries. Prabhupāda: No, that is possible. That it requires education. That is another... By nature the woman's body is different from man's. Indian man: Women are subordinate. Prabhupāda: Not subordinate actually. The occupations are different. It does not mean... That is another mistake. Just like the leg is walking, and the head is directing, so although the occupation is different, both of them are important. We require the head and leg also. If simply head is there, if there is no leg, then who'll walk? This is the understanding, not equal. Everyone must have his separate duties to serve the whole. That is the arrangement. This is real understanding. The most important part of the body is head, but that does not mean the leg is not important. Leg is important in its work, and head is important in its work. So we require both, head and tail both, not that simply leg or simply head. But when we make comparative study, we can understand that head is more important than the leg. If you cut your leg, you can live, but if you cut your head, you'll die. Therefore the conclusion is: head is more important than the leg. Comparative study. Otherwise head is also required and leg is also required. You collect some flowers, nice flowers, and, add with it some green foliage, it becomes more beautiful. Simply flower is not so beautiful. When it is arrayed with some green foliage, then it becomes more beautiful. So we have to take in that sense. But comparatively, the flower is more important than the foliage. But the both of them are required. Harikeśa: The foliage also becomes beautiful because of the flower. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is God's creation. Just like these trees. They are condemned, but still, with trees we can make a beautiful garden and that is very enjoyable. That is God's arrangement. Even insignificant... Kṣūdrād api pradhānasya jāyate paramaṁ hitam. One is very insignificant and other is very important, but both of them combined together becomes beneficial. [break] *Viśāla: I remember over five years ago you telling me about, "If you read the first nine cantos of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, you become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious." Would you kindly tell me what does it mean to be fully Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: What do you understand, fully Kṛṣṇa conscious? Viśāla: What does it mean to be fully Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: No, what you mean, first of all let me know. Harikeśa: What do you think fully Kṛṣṇa concious means? You tell Prabhupāda. Viśāla: It's to see Kṛṣṇa face to face? Prabhupāda: That means Kṛṣṇa conscious? Everyone is seeing Kṛṣṇa face to face. When you go to the temple Kṛṣṇa is there, and you are seeing. Does it mean everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious? Viśāla: No. Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa conscious? *Indian man: Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. Prabhupāda: Hm, that is part of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, brahṁa bhūtaḥ. Real Kṛṣṇa consciousness is: "Kṛṣṇa is master, I am servant." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Viśāla: To understand that you're the servant and Kṛṣṇa is the master. I see. Prabhupāda: When you fully understand, that is your Kṛṣṇa... That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. [break] So long you think that "I can also become like Kṛṣṇa," then you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Viśāla: In other words, if you still have material desires you can't be fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the beginning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Make all your material desires zero. Viśāla: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. You should only desire to serve Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...clear or not? Viśāla: Very clear. Thank you very much. Harikeśa: What if a person doesn't desire material enjoyment, but still, there is so much dirt? Prabhupāda: Hm? Who is that person who has no material desires? Harikeśa: A person really wants to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, but somehow or another, so much dirts gets in the way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dirt means it is not yet zero. I said that all material desires should be made zero. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Harikeśa: As soon as the desires completely change, then everything else is purified. Prabhupāda: Yes. As Arjuna said, kariṣye vacana tava, naṣṭo mohaḥ: "Now my illusion is over. I agree to act as you say." This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Naṣṭo moha smṛtir labdh tvat prasādān madhusūdana. [break] The moha is there. Moha means these desires are illusion, like dreaming. In dream we see so many things. They are all false. In dreaming I am seeing that somebody is coming to kill me but there is nobody, but still, I am dreaming. This is called moha. So when one is free from moha, then he's Kṛṣṇa conscious. The whole material world is going on under such illusion. Therefore it is called māyā. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. (end) Morning Walk -- December 11, 1975, Våndävana Woman Devotee: I'm trying to collect for making vases. Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that? Devotee: She's making vases, flower arrangements. Akṣayānanda Swami: ...only had one sweeper so I wasn't able to engage him, but I got some soda to do it with. Hopefully today this morning he will start. *Prabhupāda: Bicycle was available, forty*-five rupees. Akṣayānanda Swami: Accha. Now they're 250 almost three hundred rupees. Prabhupāda: And very first class bicycle like Triumph BA. BA? What is that, BS? Akṣayānanda Swami: BSA. *Prabhupāda: Ha, BSA. Eighty rupees, eighty*-five. Harikeśa: Viśvambhara's cost 500. Prabhupāda: Now that must be. Everything has risen. Smarahari: ....material is not so good also, the material. Prabhupāda: Ha? Smarahari: The steel is not so good. Prabhupāda: Now? Devotee: (indistinct) Now, (degraded?)... Akṣayānanda Swami: Price has risen and quality has lessened. (pause) Prabhupāda, you know the ISKCON centres you have started they are just like actually Vaikuṇṭha, they are so nice. Even the Gauḍīya Matha centres were not so nice. Just like an installation of Vaikuṇṭha. They're so clean and nice. (indistinct) ...help becoming devotees by visiting your centers. Becomes almost automatic. Prabhupāda: Follow the regulative principles, it will remain, always Vaikuṇṭha. Otherwise again material world. Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. Prabhupāda: Free hotel. (laughs) That's all. And free hotel will not endure. Akṣayānanda Swami: No. Prabhupāda: Svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. By service spirit beginning with tongue Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then everything is revealed, Vaikuṇṭha atmosphere... Sethji has not come out. Akṣayānanda Swami: Of course we accept, ah, when you tell us to chant sixteen rounds, we accept that figure as being, in perfect faith, that you're the ācārya, but ah, what if others we wanted to convince, is there any, any ah, śāstr... Is there any Vedic verse we can refer to to corroborate that at least they must chant sixteen rounds. Or that many number of names? Prabhupāda: No. In the śāstra it is not said like that... Akṣayānanda Swami: I see. *Prabhupāda: It is said, śaṅkhy*-pūrvakaḥ... *Akṣayānanda Swami: Śaṅkhy*-pūrvakaḥ. Prabhupāda: You must fix up. Akṣayānanda Swami: Counting. Prabhupāda: You must fix up in numerical strength. Akṣayānanda Swami: I see. Prabhupāda: Whatever you can. Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. Prabhupāda: But I have fixed up sixteen rounds, because you cannot do. Akṣayānanda Swami: That's all we can do. Prabhupāda: (smiling, touch of irony) Yes. That also is difficult. Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Otherwise, Haridāsa Ṭhākura was chanting 300,000. So, That is not possible. You should not imitate, but whatever you fix up you must do. Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. I was told in the beginning you asked the first disciples to chant 64 rounds? Prabhupāda: Yes. I asked them to chant 32? Prabhupāda: (grinning) Hm. Akṣayānanda Swami: Is that correct? *Prabhupāda: Śaṅkhy*-pūrvaka nāma-gaṇa-natibhiḥ. Śaṅkhya purva, or numerical strength must be there. And you should follow rigidly. Akṣayānanda Swami: So if, if we are serious and sincere, it means that that sixteen will increase to, ah, to continuously chanting. Prabhupāda: You can do also now. It's not that because I've finished sixteen rounds... Akṣayānanda Swami: No. Prabhupāda: You can increase. But that sixteen must be finished. Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. (pause) What I mean is, that's to bring us to the platform of chanting constantly. That at least we do that numerical number, finally we may be able to do, if we're fortunate to chant constantly day and night. Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda Swami: Some of the members of the Gauḍīya Matha who say they chant 64 rounds, they are unable to ah, ahh, refrain from sleeping too much, from eating too much. Prabhupāda: How do you know that he's eating too much? Akṣayānanda Swami: I was staying at one about a year ago. When I was travelling I stayed a few days at some of the places. At night they would have a whole meal... Prabhupāda: Hm. Akṣayānanda Swami: ...big, big meal. They would be sitting eating for one hour. Then in the morning they were all tired and very dull. Prabhupāda: Huh huh. (laughing) Akṣayānanda Swami: Then again at lunch time and after that again sleep. They couldn't do anything else, there was no time for preaching or for distributing books or... But yet they were supposed to be doing 64 rounds. That was in Vishakapatnam. Prabhupāda: Oh. Akṣayānanda Swami: They were all very fat. Prabhupāda: What is time now? *Devotee: Five to seven. ...here now. I've never been there but I heard there are a lot.. reports Cit*-sukhānanda prabhu is there now. Prabhupāda: Haa. Akṣayānanda Swami: ...(Gauḍīya Maṭha) devotees, your godbrothers and the older devotees are all looking to be pretty alright, but the younger ones, our age, they are unable to continue... Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa (to a bypasser). Akṣayānanda Swami: ...keep the standard. And many of them they have tried to come and join us. Prabhupāda: Ha? Akṣayānanda Swami: Many of them, they ask to join us even though they are initiated by others. So should we allow them to come or...? Prabhupāda: No. Akṣayānanda Swami: No. That's what I thought. I wasn't sure about that. Prabhupāda: Why they want to join? Akṣayānanda Swami: Because in their centers there's no, there doesn't seem to be so much transcendental activity like you have given us. They don't get that. And if they come and see us they see the devotees are dancing and happy and engaged. The conditions are clean and so on... Prabhupāda: So, you can try one or two. If you find that they're alright... Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. Doesn't matter. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) We can purchase some of those fields but where is the man? We can grow our own food. (slight pause) They have now learned from the Western countries to run! (jogger goes past) (laughs) And without caring for the field. Hm? Field working is very troublesome and this running is very easy. Hari-śauri: Running out of breath. (pause) Meets some one on the road. Prabhupāda: Ha? Man: (mumbling) ...Only Māyāpur, eh, Caitanya Chandrodaya Mandir temple is ahh, undoubtedly, eh, ahh Hari.. ahh, eheḥ, ahh, (mumbles something more) Prabhupāda: Scientists say, is there any living entity in the sun globe? Akṣayānanda Swami: No. They don't, they say there's nothing. Prabhupāda: Simply everything here? Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. That's what they say. Prabhupāda: And especially in Europe and America! (everyone laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa! They say there is nothing. They have gone there? They have seen? Akṣayānanda Swami: Not very intelligent. Prabhupāda: Ha? Akṣayānanda Swami: Not very intelligent... [break] Jñāna: ...nitrogen, hydrogen, oxygen... Prabhupāda: So who, who put all this energy there? Where from nitrogen came? Jñāna: That they don't know. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Therefore they are rascals. They do not know, something, and they are speaking on the subject matter. Is it not nonsense? Harikeśa: We know there's no life on the sun because we can look at a fire here and we see there's no life. Prabhupāda: But you are blind. You have no eyes to see. Harikeśa: Well we have our instruments and we look through... Prabhupāda: So what is the use of it? Anything made by rascal, is that perfect? Harikeśa: Well it's better than some mythological book! Prabhupāda: No, book also, you write book and you want to believe, others your book. That is also book. Why do you write scientific book? Harikeśa: Well they're proven, those other books... Prabhupāda: What is proven? You cannot say what is the chemical there, wherefrom came. Is that proof? "We cannot say." Is that proof? Harikeśa: Well we know how they interact. We may not know how they got here but we know what they do once they are here. Prabhupāda: No... Knowledge means to find out the source. That is knowledge. Where from it comes. There is a good example we studied in our childhood. A child was very intelligent so he was beating on a drum, so he was very much inquisitive, "Where from the sound is coming?" Then he cut the surface... (laughing) That is intelligence. Inquisitive... where from the sound is coming? Although it was childish but that is innate intelligence. Hari-śauri: Scientists are trying to do that. They are taking... Prabhupāda: And that is alright. In future! (laughter) Smarahari: The scientists say that the sun is made of certain elements and all the stars they are made of the same... Prabhupāda: Then why don't you make an imitation sun here? At night so that you may save so many expenses. So much expenses for electric. The rascal. If you know the chemicals then you make it. Ha? What do they say? Smarahari: They say there are many suns... but... Prabhupāda: That's alright. Make you one sun, if you know! Many suns but you have not made anyone of them. You just try to make one, then I shall see your intelligence. Huh? What do you say? Anybody? Akṣayānanda Swami: They cannot do. Devotee (1) (woman): They don't have enough power. *Prabhupāda: Huh? Then why do you say nonsense! If you have not enough power there must be somebody powerful than you-you have to admit that*-who has made all these things. But you are rascal you have not... You are simply, ahh, what is called? Speculating. That in future we shall be powerful. But the powerful is already there. What is your credit? More powerful-) you cannot conceive even how powerful He a scientist. Huh? Is that alright? What is your value? The already powerful is there, who has manufactured these things. And you are expecting in future you'll be powerful; therefore you are more powerful. Just see their folly. If you are powerful then make it, another imitation sun. Harikeśa: (half joking) I'm seriously speaking, if we made another one the whole place would become too hot. Prabhupāda: Hah. So you are scientist, you protect yourself. (laughter) Devotee (2): Scientists aren't very intelligent because today he big thing in the country politically is that whole world thinks they are running out of energy on one hand, and on the other hand the whole world believes that the scientists can solve all the problems and get to know the absolute truth but if they... Prabhupāda: They are creating problems. Devotee (2): Yes, they're creating problems. *Prabhupāda: (sounds of lots of birds in background) (stops) Birds and beasts, they're living without any scientists*-they're more happy. Harikeśa: But they're freezing in the cold and they're... Prabhupāda: No, no one is freezing. That is you are speaking but they are not freezing. Even int the coldest part of the country, Greenland, the animals are living quite nicely. The birds and many animals. Hari-śauri: But if we preach like that to them, then they'll say 'then what's wrong with becoming an animal then'? *Prabhupāda: Huh? But you are less than an animal. Talking nonsense. Put forward the problems, summarise janma*-mṛtyu-jar-vyādhi solve these problems. Harikeśa: Well we can solve the problem of birth by just killing all the children. Prabhupāda: (laughing) That is not solving, the birth is already there, therefore you are killing. (everyone laughing) Akṣayānanda Swami: Birth is still there. Prabhupāda: No. Because there is birth therefore you are killing. So birth problem is not solved. Harikeśa: No, no, no. We're killing before birth. Prabhupāda: What is this before birth. The child is already there... mother's womb. Prabhupāda: Ah. That is you rascal you can say. Unless he has (sic) no life, how it is growing? Such a rascal... Harikeśa: It's a lump. Prabhupāda: ...they cannot understand. Does a dead child grow? Simply speaking nonsense! Harikeśa: That's their whole argument for abortion. Prabhupāda: That's alright but... Harikeśa: You just finished it! (laughing) Prabhupāda: ...but our point is, the birth problem is not solved. If there are unwanted population, you kill them that does not mean the population problem is solved. Hari-śauri: They're not actually seeing the actual causes of the problems. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: They're not actually seeing the causes of the problems so they're trying to adjust to them. Prabhupāda: What is that? Hari-śauri: They're simply trying to make so many adjustments to the problems but they are not solving the cause. Prabhupāda: Yes. That adjustment is not solution. Akṣayānanda Swami: You said once, putting the weight from your head to your shoulder. Prabhupāda: Ha? Akṣayānanda Swami: You are carrying a heavy weight I remember you said once. You're carrying heavy weight here, to take the pain you put it here. Then again back here. But still the weight is there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: The scientists came up with another one for enjoyment. That they cut this little cord that makes the sperm come into the semen and in this way they can have sex life like anything and they're actually not killing. (Man shouts greeting in background) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jai! Jaya. Semen, what is that? Harikeśa: Well they say anyway, that... into the semen so they cut this little cord, that tube or something, that has the semen go into the sperm, so the sperm never gets into the semen. So therefore they can have sex life but they'll be no reproduction. Prabhupāda: So one may check, two may check, what about millions? Supposing they can check in that way, it may be possible for one or two, or a dozen, but what about millions and millions? Nature's way. Harikeśa: That's if they, they're doing this in... Prabhupāda: In future. That will solve in future. Harikeśa: They were giving prizes to people who are doing this. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Like TV sets. Prabhupāda: Mutual 'present' society. (everyone laughing) (front bell of temple ringing as Prabhupāda enters grounds) Hiraṇyakaśipu civilization, and we are presenting Prahlāda civilization. So this is a struggle, but ultimately Prahlāda will come out triumphant. Hare Kṛṣṇa (to bystander) and Hiraṇyakaṣipu will be killed. Jaya! (Walks into temple) (end). Morning Walk -- December 12, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...sun globe. You explain to them. Harikeśa: We can see there's life in the air, there are fishes in the water and birds in the air. And in the earth there are so many worms and crabs and things like that. We see life in these forms but why is it not true that we can see life in fire? We can't see life in fire because we haven't the experience. But because there's life in... Akṣayānanda: If you don't have the experience, it doesn't mean there's no life. Harikeśa: Because there's life... Prabhupāda: Hm? Hm? Akṣayānanda: Because we have not experienced it doesn't mean that there's no life. Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already explained. That, you'll see in big, big factories, there is fire. Flame is coming. By seeing the flame, if you think there is no life, is that not nonsense? Harikeśa: Oh, you gave the example last night of... Prabhupāda: So many example. You go to the Tata iron factory, from distance you'll see so many fire flames. Does it mean there is no life? That is nonsense. Akṣayānanda: Another point is somebody had to light the fire. Prabhupāda: Eh? Akṣayānanda: Somebody must have lit that fire. So similarly the light of the sun, who has started that light? Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Somebody has started that light, that fire. Prabhupāda: So in this way the nonsense scientists are going on. What do you think? Eh? *Harikeśa: So this idea of friction causing electricity, so is electricity-this electrical energy*-the source of fire? That's what the scientists think sometimes too, that the lightning bolt came down and made a fire. And that was man's first experience of fire as a caveman. Akṣayānanda: So where did the lightning bolt come from? Prabhupāda: Yes. How the lightning was manufactured, rascal? Harikeśa: Well, there were some positive charges in the clouds and some negative charges in the ground. Prabhupāda: That's alright. Who made that positive charge and negative charge? Akṣayānanda: So let them manufacture lightning bolts in the Tata factory. *Prabhupāda: How the electricity is produced unless there is some arrangement? Just put counter*-argument and argument, try to understand. You have to preach. So your argument stopped? Harikeśa: I don't know anything about this. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You cannot... Your malador masjid(?). Arguments are there, so whether there is life in the sun globe? *Indian man: (Hindi*-discussion with Śrīla Prabhupāda and other Indian men about śāstra, scientists, agni, and the example of the iron factory) Prabhupāda: Jaya. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Harikeśa: But the fire and the life is different in the Tata factory. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: The fire is different from the life. The fire is produced. Prabhupāda: The fire is the same. There is fire. Fire is the same. In the life the fire is not different. Harikeśa: No, what I mean to say in the example, that the people are there and the fire is also there... Prabhupāda: Hm. Harikeśa: So, in a... Prabhupāda: Exactly the same way. In the factory there is big fire and there are workers also. Harikeśa: But the life is the workers not the fire. Prabhupāda: No. I mean to say, in the midst of fire, the living entity can live. That is my argument. Akṣayānanda: But they can't jump in the fire and live. They will die. *Prabhupāda: No. That is material body. Spiritual... In the Bhagavad*-gītā there is, (it says that) it does not burn into fire, in the fire. Adāhyaḥ, adāhyaḥ. So living entity is never burnt. Even if he's in the fire. So he may have a body of fire but he does not burn. *Akṣayānanda: But why should we accept that, because to make our factory we did not need Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Akṣayānanda: To make our factory we did not need Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Akṣayānanda: To make the factory... We have made such a nice factory for fire, so we did not need to consult Bhagavad*-gītā for that. Prabhupāda: I do not follow what he is saying. *Harikeśa: He's saying he built a factory but he didn't use Bhagavad*-gītā to do it. *Prabhupāda: So who says that without Bhagavad*-gītā you cannot ignite fire? Akṣayānanda: So why should we accept that the living entity will not die. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is authority. If you do not accept, then this is the example, argument. That the factory surrounded by fire, it does not mean there is no life. From distance, you are seeing the sun from a very, very, 95 or 93 million miles away. Fiery it is undoubtedly, but it is exactly like that: that you see from a distant place, the iron factory, it is simply fiery. Your experience is from distance. You have not gone there. So the distance experience is like this, that you see there is fire, big fire, but still there are life. You have to accept this argument. Harikeśa: Actually it is perfectly reasonable. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: In the fire there's fiery bodies. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: But then that must mean in the water there's watery bodies. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: And earth, earthy bodies. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is God's creation. Take, take out one fish, within five minutes, he'll die. And you put yourself in the water, within five minutes you will die. But you are living entity, he is also living entity. His external body is different, your external body is different. Harikeśa: But my body is ninety percent water. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: My body is ninety per cent water. The scientists say that this material body is ninety percent water. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Human body. So I've got a watery body... Prabhupāda: Ninety percent water? Harikeśa: That's what they say. Prabhupāda: They say. They are rascals. (laughter) So much bones and flesh and so many things, others. And ninety percent water. Harikeśa: Well, they take a cell and they say in the cell... *Prabhupāda: "They take," they... Don't quote them, they are all rascals. You come to your own reason. They say, then you accept them as authority. Then why don't you accept authority of Bhagavad*-gītā, rascal? You are quoting some rascals and fools, and I am quoting from Bhagavad-gītā. Then whose quotation is favorable? "They say." And when we say, "Kṛṣṇa says," that is nothing! Just see, how foolish. "They say." These rascals, meat eaters, huh? Bachelor daddies, (laughter) they say something, that is authority. And (if) Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead says, (then) "Oh, that we cannot accept." Just see nonsense. That I... This argument I put forward with Professor Kotovsky that, "After all, we have to follow leader. So your leader is Lenin. And my leader is Kṛṣṇa. So where is the difference between the process? You have to accept some authority. Now it is to be seen whether Lenin is perfect or Kṛṣṇa is perfect. That is another thing, but you have to follow some authority. So you are stopped." Harikeśa: But in science... Prabhupāda: Again science. Harikeśa: No, as far as the process goes, they are very proud of the fact that there's no authority. Prabhupāda: But why you are following? Why you are quoting Newton? You are quoting this scientist, that scientist, why you are quoting? Harikeśa: Well, Newton sat there, and saw the apple falling... Prabhupāda: If you don't follow authority, then why you quote so many previous scientists? What is the use of quoting if there is no authority? Harikeśa: But the trend is, because Newton speculated the law of gravity... Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all you settle up. Don't go away from the point. (laughter) The point is that there is no need of authority. Then why you quote this scientist, that scientist? You stop this nonsense. There is no authority. Hm? Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta? Haṁsadūta: Hm. Prabhupāda: If there is no authority, why do you quote so many rascals? Then come to reason, argument, that's all. If you quote authority, I have got my authority. Harikeśa: So this fire... That makes sense. Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: This fire, it makes sense. That there's life in fire. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is argument. When you do not accept authority, there must be reason and argument. Harikeśa: But this ether thing is very troublesome. Prabhupāda: Troublesome for you! (laughter) Harikeśa: Yes. You said sound is in the ether. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: But I couldn't understand how air... Prabhupāda: You have to gain that intelligence. Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Sound is the proof that there is ether. Śabda. Now, I am talking, you are hearing. How you are hearing? Ethereal transportation. Otherwise how you can hear? I am talking here, and why you are hearing? This is ethereal. The sound is being produced, somehow or other the ether is passing, just (like) tele... What is called? Radio. Harikeśa: They heard, people on the earth, talking on the moon. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: So it went through the air, it went through the space, sounds. Prabhupāda: The moon (astronaut) says that "There is no life." Then who is speaking? Nonsense. (laughter) They talk in the moon, and they hear from here, and "There is no life." And we have to take these authorities. (laughter) Akṣayānanda: I remember once you said that we may not live in the water but that doesn't mean there's no such thing as a fish. Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: So that is also a very good argument. I remember you gave that one. Harikeśa: So the air is coming from the ether, so... Prabhupāda: Because in the air there is sound. Therefore ether is there. It is a production of the ether. Harikeśa: So would it be beneficial to try to understand the process of production? Like the example of the earth coming from the water. Because the water evaporates, there is left over minerals and salts and all these things... Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: And the fire producing the water from excess heat. Like in the summer season and then the monsoon comes. And fire from air, from the friction generating electric current. But the air from the ether needs an example. Prabhupāda: Air from the ether because when the air blows, you find the sound, sshhhh. That is ether. Hari-śauri: Yeah, like some... Harikeśa: But the example's got to go the other way. From the ether comes the air. *Prabhupāda: That you found out, example. But this is the proof there is ether within the air. That example is given many times in Bhagavad*-gītā. Passerby: Haribol! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Haṁsadūta: Does it mean beyond the ether there's no sound? Prabhupāda: Beyond the ether there is mind, there is mind. Haṁsadūta: There's no sound? Prabhupāda: No, what is the sound of the mind? Everyone knows you have mind, I have mind, but where is the sound of the mind? Harikeśa: There's subtle and the gross has no realm in the subtle? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is finer. Harikeśa: So is that example of the space, then the thinner air, and the air, and the water, and the earth, and in between electricity... Prabhupāda: The grosser, grosser... Harikeśa: Is that a good example? Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from the subtle form, finer. Finer than the ether is the mind, and finer than the mind is intelligence. Harikeśa: Oh, and in the *Bhāgavatam* it also says that because the universal form desired to hear, that sound was created and then the organ for hearing. Like that. Prabhupāda: That is also created. Harikeśa: So... Prabhupāda: Just like from ether, sound is created. Śabda, sparśa. Śabda, sparśa, rūpa, rasa, gandhaḥ, these are the five parmatra (?), object of sense perception. Budh, pañca parmatra, ten senses, the mind, and three modes, the material nature. This is the ingredient of the whole creation. Harikeśa: So the basic element is the soul's... Prabhupāda: Basic element is Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: And then the spirit soul's desire. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: And Kṛṣṇa fulfills everyone's desire. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: By manipulating the energy. Harikeśa: So the most subtle form... Prabhupāda: He is also... The living entity is creating different body for different enjoyment. Haṁsadūta: The living entity? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: But he can't do it without Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is, he is subordinate. Haṁsadūta: Just like our hair grows, but we don't know how it's happening. Prabhupāda: It is sanctioned. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Everything from Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: Is the most subtle form of creation the desire of the living entity to enjoy this material world? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: And then Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Supplies ingredients. Yes. Harikeśa: So that desire, that is equivalent, or is that the... Prabhupāda: A child wants to play, and the father and mother gives the toys for that play. So without getting help from the father and mother, the child cannot enjoy. Similarly, we may desire but unless Kṛṣṇa helps us we cannot fulfill our desire. Harikeśa: Is desire a function of consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless there is desire, how it is living? It is dead body. Stone, stone has no desire. Harikeśa: The spirit soul is... Prabhupāda: Therefore, spirit soul is described as superior energy. He desires and he manipulates the matter. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. Harikeśa: It's very logical, step by step by step by step. Actually when it's seen from the point of view of the desire of the living entity, it makes perfect sense because he's got these senses and the sound, and then in order to hear, there has to be a vehicle for the sound, and then there has to be an instrument. And then in order to touch there has to be the vehicle and the... Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: So therefore, from that point of view, it's very logical. Prabhupāda: This is the point, you have to... Harikeśa: Trying to do it the other way is impossible. From the... Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Empirical process? Devotee: I don't know if that's the right word. Harikeśa: Inductive reasoning? Deductive reasoning. Impossible. Prabhupāda: Deductive reason is possible. Kṛṣṇa says that na jāyate na mriyate vā. This is deductive: you hear from Kṛṣṇa, and this is fact. And if you want to make research, how that living entity never takes birth, then it will take time and at the same it may not be perfect. Harikeśa: I finally understood why you were always talking to Svarūpa Dāmodara about inductive and deductive reasoning. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Because it's just not possible to go the other way. Prabhupāda: By inductive reason you cannot reach the truth perfectly. Harikeśa: Because it's beyond the material creation and you have to use the material senses and mind to understand. It's not possible. Prabhupāda: Therefore, our point is deductive. What Kṛṣṇa says, that is perfect. Harikeśa: So first prove the existence of God and the existence of the spirit soul... Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: ...and then, they'll just have to explain... Prabhupāda: And then it's creation. Harikeśa: And that it's creation. They'll just have to accept they have desires. Prabhupāda: Aham evāsam evāgre. This is the Bhāgavata's first instruction to Brahma. Aham evāsam agre. Agre means in the beginning. So in the beginning Kṛṣṇa was there, then creation took place. Similarly in the beginning of this body, "I am spirit soul," was there. Then the body comes out. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is there, therefore the whole cosmic manifestation has come about. Aham evāsam agre. And at the end of the creation, Kṛṣṇa is there. Similarly at the end of this body, I am there. Again I'll create another body. This is going on. Harikeśa: It's Kṛṣṇa's trick just to give us this facility. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: This is Kṛṣṇa's trick just to give us facility. Prabhupāda: And because I wanted it. Kṛṣṇa doesn't want it. But because you are rascals we wanted it. Kṛṣṇa (says,) "Alright, do it." Harikeśa: So therefore, in the beginning Kṛṣṇa gives you the big post, Brahmā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Now you're in charge of creating a whole universe. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you want lord it over, "Alright you become Brahma." He gives so much facility. Harikeśa: And then this Brahmā creates so many different desires, and then he goes through all the different bodies. Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Everyone becomes Brahmā first? Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. Or if you want to be a cat you can become. Harikeśa: How can they say this isn't science? This is so incredible. Prabhupāda: Desire is there. Desire is there. Just like in your country, the nudism going on. The desire is, "Ah, I shall remain free, naked." So Kṛṣṇa is giving you facility, "Alright, you stand here for thousands of years as tree, naked, nobody will criticize. You want to remain naked on the public street and you want to enjoy in that way, alright you become tree." Harikeśa: Because desire is a function of consciousness, which is a symptom of the spirit soul, it's very powerful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Because it's spiritual actually. *Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Abhilāṣ means desire. Anya means "except service of Kṛṣṇa." That is beginning of bhakti. As soon as he desires something material for enjoyment he has to come to Me. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7]. The mind and the senses; *with these things he is struggling for existence. Otherwise he is part and parcel of Krs..., mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhutaḥ jīva-loka sanātana [Bg. 15.7]. He is eternal but because he is influenced by the mind, desires, and the senses, sense enjoyment, he is struggling. This is it, a struggle. So when he is too much fatigued, Kṛṣṇa comes and gives you good counsel. "You rascal give up these all desires. Surrender to Me, I give you protection." But he'll not do that. And if he agrees then anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11], all material desires, zero. Then bhakti begins. And if you have got a little pinch of material desires, then you have to accept different types of body. It will create, naturally. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. He is desiring under the influence of particular modes of nature, and he's getting body. Harikeśa: One has to be very careful. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise even a devotee like Bhārata Mahārāja, he had to accept the body of a deer. A little careless. Then nature's law will act. Hm? If you do not become cautious and if you infect the smallpox disease, you have to suffer. Therefore a civilized man takes process, caution, "Oh there is smallpox disease, I shall not go there. Or if I go there, I must take vaccine." This is human civilization, caution. And if you are animal, you do not know. So human life means not animal life. Very reasonable, very cautious, educated, cultured, that is human life. Not animal life. Drink like animal, or eat like animal, have sex life like animal. Freedom, animal has got all freedom. So that freedom is not allowed to the human beings. That is civilization. The same example. The animal has got freedom and you'll see in Indian market, vegetable market, some cow comes and eats, takes so many vegetables and eats, but he's not going to the court. But if you take one small piece of chili without, then you'll go to the court. So therefore, law is meant for human beings, not for the animals. Those who want to be free, they are animals. So*-called freedom means animalism. That is not humanism. Humanism means to follow the rules and regulations and the laws, and then he is human being. Because law is meant for the human being, not for the animals. And when you come out from your home, immediately the law is keep to the right. And if you violate, immediately you go to the law. But a dog, he doesn't care. If you say, "A dog does not obey this law," that is no excuse. You are human being. If you don't obey then you go to jail. So many animals are on the street naked, they're having sex life, naked. You do, immediately you'll be prosecuted. Why? Because you are a human being. You have to restrain. Even if you like. Just like the Hawaii University students, "What is the wrong to become a dog?" So if you think like that then you become a dog, nature is ready to give you a dog's body. That is (Sanskrit). He's thinking, "The dog's life is very nice. This liberation of sex life on the street." "Alright, you take dog's body." Yaṁ yaṁ vā... Bhāvam... ah, what is that? Harikeśa: Smaran bhāvam. Prabhupāda: Ha. Tyajanty ante kalevaram. *Caitya*-guru: Taṁ tam evaiti kaunteya. *Prabhupāda: Ha. "So you are thinking like dog, alright you take the body of a dog." And finished. Your human life is finished. And again wait for millions of years to come to the human form of life. Nature's law you cannot check. Daivī hi eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. The law is there. The same example, if you contaminate some disease, the law is you must suffer from that disease. So they are thinking "free." That is their gross ignorance. Hari-śauri: It's very important then to accept some tapasya. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: It's very important to accept some tapasya to purify your desires. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is, that requires tapasya. Tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1]. Tapasya means to purify the desire. Tat paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Therefore if you simply keep your desires to the service of Kṛṣṇa, you become purified. Passerby: (singing) Govinda hari, gopāla. Harer jaya jaya, prabhu dina dayala hari. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Passerby: (carries on singing on his way) Govinda jaya, gopāla jaya... Prabhupāda: This declaration of freedom is animal. Animal freedom. Passerby: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Thank you. They are struggling for false freedom. This is not freedom. This is becoming entangled. And when we voluntarily give up all freedom, "This is all nonsense! Kṛṣṇa, I surrender unto you." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān [Bg. 7.19], then he's really wise. When he fully surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. *Caitya*-guru: Then he knows, Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise how he'll surrender. He must be convinced that Kṛṣṇa is everything, so let me surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then he is wise. Otherwise he is an animal. Harikeśa: A really wise person could understand that there's no choice but to surrender. Prabhupāda: Yes. He must. He is already under the control. Harikeśa: He's always controlled at every moment. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But he's... He prefers to be controlled by the laws of nature instead of by Kṛṣṇa. That is his misfortune. He is controlled, but he thinks, "I am free." That is ignorance. Mūḍha. Just like I am the state citizen. I am not free. I must work according to the state laws. But he (thinks), "I shall... I don't care for government." That is my foolishness. You have to care. At home I can say to my wife, "I don't care for government, I don't care for the police." But when there is crime, when the police comes, then he says "Ohh." (pulls a sad face*-laughter) He can be very much proud before his wife, "I don't care for anything." But when the police comes, "What can I do?" (Hindi) There is an example that the, what is called, mūrgī? What you call? Toast? No. Host? No. What is called? Mūrgī, mūrgī? Chicken? The male, male? Akṣayānanda: Rooster. Haṁsadūta: Rooster. Prabhupāda: Rooster? Woman: Cock? *Prabhupāda: Yes. So the, when in the morning, it is let loose, then he says, "I don't care for any hahaa, cawcaw." Then in the evening, when they are pushed into the, that what is called? Nest? "Cawcawcawcaw. Whatever you like you can do, whatever you like you can do." (laughter) This is the example. You see? When he's under the arrest, "Now sir, whatever you like, you do with me. If you like you can excuse me." (laughter) And when he's out, "I don't care for anyone." Mūrgī intelligence. Rooster intelligence. This is our proposal. "I don't care for anyone. I am God." Mūrgī logic. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā mano rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12], if one is not a devotee, his only business is to remain on the mental platform and concoct things. And at the end he thinks that "I am God." Concoction. Therefore it is said in the śāstra, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā [SB 5.18.12]. One who is not a devotee, he has no good qualification. He is simply on the, hovering on the mental platform. Hari-śauri: The sixteenth chapter describes it very nicely... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca, na vidur āsurāḥ [Bg. 16.7]. In which way we have direct out activities, in which way we shall have to stop our activities: they do not know. Āsurāḥ janā. Because they don't take direction from God. They make their own way of speculation. So therefore, they are animals, or demons. Because they do not take direction during life, therefore at the end Kṛṣṇa comes, mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. All mental speculation, creation, is taken away at death. (to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! It is said, kṛṣṇa nama koro vai ar sabe miche palaiba patha nāi yama āche piche: take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, don't try to escape. Because behind you there is Yamaraja! (laughs) He will finish your all concoction. Hare Kṛṣṇa! (end) Morning Walk -- December 14, 1975, New Delhi Prabhupāda: Who is giving the tree food, huh? (Hindi) What is the answer? Who gives them food? Tejas: Kṛṣṇa is giving. Prabhupāda: But these rascals they cannot understand. They are making economic development. They have no program for economic development. How they're eating? Harikeśa: Well, they're not in very good shape either. I mean they have to stand... Prabhupāda: But you are also in not very good shape. Harikeśa: But I can put on a coat. They're standing out in the cold. Prabhupāda: (laughing) In your country nobody likes white, they have begun to tan. So you are not (in) good shape in consideration of ladies. (chuckling) How you can say that it is not in good shape? It has got another lady to appreciate. You may not appreciate. One man, lady, may not appreciate your beauty but that does not mean you are not beautiful. *Caitya*-guru: It says ulu. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Caitya*-guru: Name of that tree. Devotee: Ulu. Harikeśa: Sometimes the trees just die because there's not sufficient . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not the standard that you do not like somebody, therefore he is not liked by others. That is not very good argument. That is applicable everywhere. The point is that it is a living entity, it so stout and strong, who is giving him food? That is the point. Harikeśa: Well, my argument was sometimes he's not being supplied the proper way so therefore economic development is necessary. Prabhupāda: Alright. That is your... Out of 8,400,000 forms of life, the economic development is taken, a few only. Why others they're developing without any economy? There are so many other living entities Harikeśa: Well for example, the bees or the ants, they're, the bees are making hives. Prabhupāda: They are also. *Harikeśa: They are developing a big bee*-hive. *Prabhupāda: No, no, that is collection of food. The trees also do that. They are called pāda*-pa. Pāda-pa means they drink water by the legs. You drink water by the mouth and they drink water by the legs. Pāda-pa. Just like the, what is called? Bats. They pass stool through the mouth. Is it not? You do not know this? Yes. (laughter) You'll find the bats, they are hanging down the head, and they're passing stool. Sometimes man also does so, when there is strangulation. That is very dangerous disease. What is called? Intestine strangulation. Then passing stool through the mouth. In Bengal sometimes they curse, "You'll pass stool through the mouth!" Yes, sometimes they do. Sometimes they eat through the rectum. Do you know that? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. They inject glucose through the rectum. There are many varieties of life. That is the fault of the modern rascals. They want to compare with himself, everything. They do not know that in the God's kingdom there are varieties of life. Otherwise why the 8,400,000? There are varieties. What these rascals know about these varieties? Ātmavat manyate jagat. They think, "Everyone should be like me." (sound of crows in background) Now these birds, within a second, goes hundred feet high. You cannot do. This is variety. Harikeśa: But the bird is always looking for food. *Prabhupāda: Everyone is looking, that is another thing. But food is there. He has no arrangement for making industry. (to passer*-by) Hare Kṛṣṇa! He has no arrangement for making industry. Harikeśa: Yes, that's why he always has to... Prabhupāda: Their food is there, he is simply searching out, that's all. Harikeśa: So if we economically develop, we don't even have to search out... Prabhupāda: No, no, you are opening factories. They are not opening factories. Nature's food is already there. And "Be satisfied, take this." That's all. That much endeavour is required. That is material world. Harikeśa: So in other words he has to look for food, but man has to make a factory in order to look for food... Prabhupāda: No, he hasn't got to make factory. He has got also food but he... If he does, he is claiming to be more civilized. He has complicated his activities by opening factories. That's all. He has got also food. Let everyone remain in nature's... You take fruit from the trees and drink milk, you are also sufficient. You don't require to cook even. There are fruits. Formerly all the sages they were taking fruits from the trees, and milk from the cows. That's all. They did not even produce food. Like agriculture. No. Whatever nature is supplying, that's all. But you are killing the cows, eating the meat, and producing no food and and making things, complicated. This is your civilization. (a car accelerates past) Harikeśa: It's a lot of fun to drive fast cars and have sex and see movies and... This is fun you know. It's the only way to enjoy! Prabhupāda: Yes. Enjoyment is there in the cats and dogs. When you enjoy sex in palace and the dog enjoys sex on the street, the value is the same. The taste does not increase or decrease. But you are thinking to enjoy sex in big palace is advancement. That is your foolishness. Actually sex enjoyment in the palace or on the street is the same. It has no difference of taste. Harikeśa: So then we can have sex on the street. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You are going to have that, next life! (laughter) Because you are desiring, you will get this life. Kṛṣṇa will fulfill your desire. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante māyā... [Bg. 4.11]. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. Kṛṣṇa is within you. You are thinking that I will be very much happy if I enjoy sex like the dog. Kṛṣṇa notes, and next life, "My dear friend here is the body. You enter and enjoy." Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe... [Bg. 18.61]. He is noting down your desire. Hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati. Māyayā brāhmayan sarva-bhūtāni, yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. This is clearly explained. Alright, you want the enjoyment like dog, here is. Remembrance is also there. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. You wanted to enjoy sex like a dog. Now I have given you this body, now you enjoy. Everything is there, arranged. Harikeśa: Yes, but dogs they have to lead a pretty miserable life. Prabhupāda: But you have also, you have got, not living very happy life, this human society. There are others, even Indira Gandhi, she's always disturbed. Who is happy here? I saw personally. Oh, she is so disturbed. Everyone is unhappy. Who is happy here? Harikeśa: I mean, you say that to anybody in America, they'll go, "I'm happy." *Prabhupāda: Everyone is unhappy, America, India, god or beast everyone is unhappy. Āhāra*-nidrā-bhaya, bhaya means fearfulness. That is unhappiness. Everyone is afraid what will happen next. This is unhappiness. So either you be Indira Gandhi or a street dog, that is nature's law. Nobody is happy. That they cannot understand that there is no happiness, and he's trying to make development for happiness. Actually there is no happiness. This is struggle for existence. Manaḥ-ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7], with the mind and the senses he's trying for happiness, but there is no happiness. That is called illusion. That is called illusion. There is no happiness and he's trying to get happiness. Happiness is beyond the senses, material senses. Sukham atyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyam grāhyam [Bg. 6.21], if you want real happiness that is transcendental happiness, not this sense happiness. Harikeśa: But there is happiness of the senses. When you have sex life... Prabhupāda: When... Happiness there is, not for the rascals, but for the intelligent. Happiness there is. Unless there is happiness, how we are seeking for happiness? Unless there is immortality, how we are seeking for immortality? There is. But the way in which you are seeking for these things, that is wrong. That is the whole education. Māyā muni sthitaḥ. Just like a foolish animal, he is seeking water from the desert because it appears there is water. But that is his foolishness. A human being he knows that there is no water, it is all sand. That is the difference between animal and human being. Therefore if the dog sees another, what is called? He makes a dog in the water, and he thinks another dog carrying a bread and he wants to take it away, so his bread goes away Harikeśa: That's a perfect example. *Prabhupāda: He loses his own bread and there is no other bread. That's all. (Sanskrit) The lion he thought there is another lion within the well, and jumped over it. He lost his life, that's all. This going on. So, he's so strong, lion, it is fabulously strong, but he's animal. In spite of so much strength, he's an animal. Similarly this modern civilization, in spite of so much so*-called advancement, they are simply animals. That's all. A big animal is eulogized by another small animal, that's all. Animal is animal, big animal or small. (pointing out on the road) Just see he hasn't got master, and what is his condition? Harikeśa: Pretty bad. Prabhupāda: This is śūdra. If anyone depends on the master's mercy, he's a śūdra. Here in New Delhi, these big, big buildings, big, big officers, as soon as the government will fail, they will be street dogs, that's all. Now they are plundering, by official instrument. Now when the government will be finished, they will be street dog. That's all. This is your civilization. Immediately if all of a sudden there is attack in New Delhi, all the people will starve. There is no food at all, and they'll die. Harikeśa: That's a really important point that the government takes more and more, and everybody gets poorer and poorer. Prabhupāda: Yes. The government is also poor because they do not know how to govern. Buddhi yasya balaṁ tasya. If one has got intelligence he has got strength. Harikeśa: Change of government means getting poorer. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: A change of government... Prabhupāda: Change of government... Just like they say, a change of theories by the rascals. Change means rascal. Harikeśa: But as soon as a government changes... *Prabhupāda: Anything change means it is the domain of rascals, pandemonium. Just like in Manu*-saṁhitā it is said that, nāsyāṁ svatantratām arhati, women should not be given independence. Once said, that is fact. If you want to change, you suffer. That's all. Hari-śauri: Any deviation from absolute law means immediately suffering. Prabhupāda: Bas, immediately you have to suffer. (reads sign on building) DTS, what is this? Haṁsadūta: German Democratic Republic. German diplomat. Prabhupāda: German Embassy? Tejas: This is going to be the Punjab Bhavan. For the Punjab state government. Harikeśa: You're painting a pretty bleak picture. Prabhupāda: Paint picture? Harikeśa: The one you're painting of society, and the future. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: There's no hope. *Prabhupāda: No. Unless they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no hope, that's a fact. There will be more chaotic condition and everyone will suffer and perish. Āchinna*-dāra-draviṇā gacchanti giri-kānanam. This is already predcited. I am not painting. It is already there, I am simply repeating. That's all. I am not speculator. Hari-śauri: Actually most of them are aware that they're in a very bad position. Everybody is expecting another war. Prabhupāda: Yes, just see. This is capitol of India. This is the position. We can know, understand. Harikeśa: The problem is in America, it all looks so nice. *Prabhupāda: That means they are not yet so poverty*-stricken. Harikeśa: You ask anyone, tell anyone this in America, they'll go, "Oh well we've had difficult times in the past, but we've always pulled out of it." Like the Depression. They always quote the Depression of the thirties. The Depression and they say then there was the war and everything became better. *Prabhupāda: Then what is the academy? Nonsense. They are spending so much money in this kala*-kendra, academy, this, that. And no place for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just see. Such a cultural book of knowledge. There is no such institution, Gītā instruction, institute. No. This kala bhavan, this kendra bhavan this... They have got so many dance bhavan, and when Kṛṣṇa dances with the gopīs, "Ah, that is bad!" The rascals, they do not understand where you have got this tendency for dancing. Because it is there in Kṛṣṇa. That they do not understand. Kṛṣṇa dancing is bad, and my dancing is very good. They will put so many questions, "Why Kṛṣṇa dance with others' wives." "And why your are dancing with others wife, fall-down." Just see. Kṛṣṇa's dancing is mythology and his dancing is fact. Although His life is mythology (indistinct). (laughter) (indistinct) Rabindra Bhavan. What they are doing? Such a big house. Devotee: Aravindra Bhavan Prabhupāda: Hm? This is Aurobindo? Tejas: This is Ravindra Bhavan. *Prabhupāda: What is written there? Ravindra. Ravindra's Gate. Ravindra's gate is, how to enjoy illicit sex. This is his gate. He introduced māgha*-melā, inviting young boys and girls to dance together. And taking this opportunity, he was enjoying young girls. That was his purpose. They would come, the young girls would come, Ravindra (Bengali), grandfather, and he'll, "Alright you sit down on my lap." That's all. This is Ravindra Bhavan, to become debauch. And if you teach young man debauchery, he can attract millions. There is no doubt of it. The pride(?) philosophy. Hm? Debauchery. Allow sex without any discrimination. (observes passing hand drawn cart) Economic development. Where is economic development for these men? There, when there was no economic development, the same taila and poor people with black cloth was there, and now the same thing is still there, so where is development? Tejas: It's increasing actually. Prabhupāda: Nature's law you cannot check. It must go on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Bhāgavata says, "Don't try to improve all these things, it is not possible. Improve your Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That will be benefit for your life." (sees another sign) Sangeet (indistinct). Means you can dance. And when our men dance, what do they call? Crazy, crazy. (reads signs) Śrī Rāma. Śrī Rāma for art and culture. So arrange dancing in this Sangeet dance, here. (laughter) They'll not allow? Hm? Haṁsadūta: Their idea of dancing is different to... Prabhupāda: No, you, you sell tickets for ten rupees, then they'll (indistinct). If you make free then they'll... *Caitya*-guru: International dance. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why don't you try? Just see. I think they allow dancing by renting the halls, no? What is that? Tejas: Which one? That Kamani Hall? Prabhupāda: Any one. This one. Tejas: They have performances. Prabhupāda: But they sell tickets. So similar way, why not ours? [break] Enquire from the authority that we want to hold festival, dance and chant. And singing, don't say chant. See if you can dance, for one week. So what will be the terms. Enquire. Tejas: The Supra House, I enquired before, so they want about five or six hundred rupees per day. Prabhupāda: So that's alright! Five, six hundred, suppose if we continue for one week, they may reduce. Hm? Even five hundred, then we pay one week about 3,500, so why that LA... What is that? Tejas: LIC grounds. Prabhupāda: Hm. That is 50,000, 60,000. Tejas: There is one big Vijñāna Bhavan. Three thousand people can sit there. Should I organize like that? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tejas: For when the devotees come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tejas: It is better than Ram līlā grounds. We'll get the educated and sophisticated people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tejas: Not just the Old Delhi people. Prabhupāda: Yes. And... Tejas: And we can make very good... In the newspaper, if we get, then we'll get... We can sell the tickets also. Prabhupāda: Yes, you attend all these Kala Bhavan. Utilize like that way. You will have always engagement. This our chanting, dancing, prasāda distribution. And they will pay also. We'll sell books. Why don't you take advantage of this institution? It requires organisation, that's all. Why LIC grounds, so much money? Three thousand daily and 40,000 monthly and so on. Tejas: So much endeavor also. Prabhupāda: And so much endeavor. Tejas: This Vijñāna Bhavan we can get, it's very nice. Prabhupāda: So do it! Am I right or not? Hari-śauri: Programs like that would work very successfully in the west also. Prabhupāda: Yes. And what is three thousand, four thousand? You get two members and it is... Tejas: No. People will contribute. No problem. Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it immediately. Tejas: Should I make that for March? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Why March? Immediately! Try for immediately. Every week there must be some festival. Hm. In that way you don't require a very gigantic house. We can live anywhere, but our propagation will go on. [break] So many bhavans and so many institutions, utilise them. And there will be concession, if we take for one week, two weeks. They will give concession. Sometimes they may give free also. When they understand this is nice movement. [break] Devotee: ...is starting to sell, to make more money. It's not very big (indistinct). Prabhupāda: No. He has done a mistake so he wants to rectify it. He wants to bring money, (chuckles) but if the money is lost, it is lost, let him come back. What is there? A life saved is more important than save the money. So if I could know the address... (to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Then I could write. Bhāgavata: Well, we can... Revatīnandana, I think is staying in the, by Los Angeles, right near San Diego. San Diego or... I thinks it's San Diego or that other one, Laguṇa Beach. Prabhupāda: So I wanted to write him a letter. Bhāgavata: Revatīnandana might be able to give you the address. Prabhupāda: (greets a man in Hindi) Jaya! Ha. Vṛndāvana hogya. No, if you know Revatīnandana's address, he can forward. Devotee: Yes, he can forward. Harikeśa: Śyāmasundara told me that he wanted to make millions of dollars for you so that he could... Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles) And I am thinking when making millions of dollars, he may not be lost. (to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya! [break] ...millions of dollars, I shall do. I have got money. I want one soul saved, that is more than millions of dollars. [break] *Bhāgavata: (describing Māyāpur) All the devotees, some devotees, they live in the main building, and some devotees they work on the weaving, and some devotees work in agriculture, some devotees work in the gośālā. They make competition, that "Who will come to the maṅgala-ārati first, early." Now they are coming one hour before maṅgala-ārati. They're in a competition, and the ones who dance through the ārati, throught the entire ārati without stopping, the ones that come early, they get this stamp, Kṛṣṇa stamp. You get twenty stamps, you get one plate of mahā*-prasādam. You get thirty stamps, forty stamps... You get one thousand stamps, you can go to Vṛndāvana for darśana. You get two thousand stamps you can go for opening ceremony in Bombay. Like this he is making program. Everyone is working very hard to come to the maṅgala-ārati first, to chant the..., and to dance. Everyone is working very hard. He has increased the enthusiasm. Prabhupāda: These are all a school building? Hm? They're extended. Tejas: Yes. Devotee: It's a school. Tejas: They have also opened a new school. Besides this they have opened another college. Prabhupāda: Where? Tejas: Some place in south Delhi. Prabhupāda: Oh. (end) Room Conversation -- December 14, 1975, New Delhi Bhāgavata: ... explaining to them the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in pure devotional service so that they may go back to home, back to Godhead and become liberated from the realms of birth and death in this material world. Prabhupāda: Is that alright? What he's saying. So, how to help them? Devotee: First we give them the chanting, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Devotee: First we give them the mah*-mantra. *Prabhupāda: Mah*-mantra, one may not accept. Bhāgavata: We have to find the ways and the means by which we can make pure devotional service attractive to each living entity according to his... Prabhupāda: Unless one feels necessity, why they will accept your proposal to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? How you'll make them think "Yes, it is necessity." That is wanted. Otherwise anyone will say, some proposition, "You do this." Then why they will accept it? Bhāgavata: Hm. We have to make... Prabhupāda: Unless he feels that... That requires philosophy. If you say something dogmatic, why they'll accept? You say that, "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." He'll say, "I have no interest. I have no interest, why shall I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa?" Devotee: Tell them that they are eternal spirit soul. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: You tell them that you are eternal spirit soul. Tell them about the eternal spiritual world. Prabhupāda: That you have to convince. That you are eternal, but you are falsely engaged in temporary business. That you have to tell them. *Bhāgavata: We have to give them knowledge. Knowledge consists of telling them what is the field, who is the knower of the field, and the super*-knower of the field. Once they get knowledge, knowledge is the preliminary step to executing devotional service. Once they have knowledge then they will be able to execute devotional service. And Rūpa Goswami says that one who executes devotional service in knowledge, increases his knowledge. Therefore the first thing is that we should give them knowledge and knowledge means to understand this body, the owner of the body, and the supreme owner of the body, Kṛṣṇa./ Puṛuṣa prakṛti caiva,/ kṣetra kṣetrajñam eva ca./ etad veditum icchāmi/ jñāna jñeya ca keśava. "What is the field; what is the puruṣa; the enjoyer; what is prakṛti, nature; what is the kṣetra the field; what is the kṣetrajñor; the knower of the field; what is knowledge and what is the end of knowledge. These things I wish to know. Prabhupāda: Very good. Bhāgavata: And Kṛṣṇa answers him. He says that, ida śarīra kaunteya -"My dear Kuntī, śarīraṁ, this body, kṣetrajña.. kṣetrajnam... Prabhupāda: Not my dear Kuntī. Bhāgavata: My dear son of Kuntī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhāgavata: Kṣetram ity abhidhīyate; *that this body is known as the field. Etad yo vetti ta prāhu kṣetrajña iti tad*-vidaḥ; that this body is known as the field and one who knows this field, he is the knower of the field, he is the knower of the body. Prabhupāda: Hm. So how to explain, everyone is acting. How he is acting, on the field, that is stated next verse. Field of activities. In English it is called field of activity. That field of activity is this body. According to the body one begins his... Just like one born in the dog's body so the dog care... They, from the very beginning they are searching after a master. You have seen the small? Hari-śauri: Pup. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They follow, some gentleman. And because at that time it is good living, somebody takes charge, "Alright let me take this pup." And the children also like, so he gets some shelter. So similarly, according to different body the activities begins. Therefore body is the field of activities. A snake, because he has got the field of activity of a snake's body, from the very beginning he is very, very envious. The same, trying to bite others. In this way our activities begin according to the body. And this change of bodies take place in the lower animal life automatically, by nature's law. Prakṛte kriyamānāni guṇai karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ. But when comes to the form of a human being, on account of developed consciousness, he has got responsibility. He has to make his choice. He is suffering in this material world changing different types of bodies, one after another, and the propensity to lord it over the material world is going on. Now he has to change the consciousness, whether he wants to continue this propensity for lording over the material world, or he wants to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This choice has to be made by the human being. If he makes his choice after getting good education from the right source, that "I am going on in the wrong way, by the desire to lord it over the material nature but I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa therefore I must surrender now. Bahūnā janmanām ante jñānavān mām... This is wisdom. And if we do not get this wisdom, simply like animals we continue to lord it over the material nature, by acquiring money. Dharma, artha, kama. Then we are spoiling our life. Separate times we become religious for being promoted to higher standard of life, economic development, big, big scheme, plans, how to make gorgeous city, buildings, roads, cars, slaughter house, scientific, how to cut throat very scientifically. These plans are going on. Some of them are trying to be religious to go to the heaven because he has heard, and that's a fact also, that heavenly planets the standard of living is more opulent, hundreds and thousands times, the sex enjoyment, is hundred and thousand times better. So by so*-called religious functions and sacrifices, they are engaged the same, how to satisfy the senses. The dog is also anxious to satisfy his senses. As soon as he finds a female dog, he wants to make friendship with her and have sex. On the street, never mind. And similarly the demigods they are also engaged in the same business. In a different standard only. The business is the same. Āhāra-nidr-bhayam etam. So if one wants to continue this business then he'll continue this material body and if he wants to stop this business, come to his original position, then he makes real progress. But nobody is interested in advancement of spiritual life. Generally they take to religion, religiosity, for material happiness. Artho 'rhati. I am distressed, I have no money, or I am suffering from some disease; *you'll find all these. So all of them go to the sādhus only for this purpose. Sir, I am suffering from some disease, so without going to the doctor, and saving so much money, let me pay hundred rupees to the sādhu and he'll give me his blessings. So I will save thousands of rupees, for curing the disease. For this purpose they go to sādhu. Nobody goes to sādhu for going back to home back to godhead. It is only (material) proposition. Otherwise the so*-called yogis, sādhus, swamis, they are making good luck business simply by promising that you'll get this material power. This Mahesh Yogi he says that, what is his philosophy? Harikesa: He says that if you renounce now, you can enjoy later. That if you take some austerity now, like meditation, abstaining from certain things, that later on you can enjoy sex life unlimitedly, have clear intelligence unlimtedly, and ultimately become the... Prabhupāda: The Mahesh Yogi, TM. Transcendental meditation. But I don't think they say that if you undergo austerities you... Harikesa: No, that was in the beginning they were saying... Prabhupāda: Oh now he has changed! Harikesa: Now he has changed, because it was too unpopular. Prabhupāda: It is business. Bhāgavata: Rajneesh is also like that. Prabhupāda: Hm? Bhāgavata: Rajneesh, same philosophy. Prabhupāda: Hm. But they do not know; *na te vidu svartha*-gati hi viṣṇum; *these rascals they do not know what is the actual aim of life. They are, in the groups of ordinary men, they are doing some business opened this transcendental TM shop, that's all. Cheating. Cheating. All of them are are going on, cheating. Nobody knows the real interest is to go back to home, back to Godhead. Nobody knows. Ask any so-called sādhu, yogi, swami*-they do not know. They read Bhagavad-gītā but they do not understand. (sic:) Yad jñātv na nivartante tad dhāma parama mama, so what do they understand, these... tyaktv deha punar janma naiti mam eti so'rjuna. They do not believe all these things, therefore they say.. Swami Chinmayananda says that whatever is necessary we shall accept; other ślokas we shall reject. This is his, this rascal's philosophy. As if Kṛṣṇa says something superfluous. They say like that. And the other day some gentleman came, "It is ficticious writing... You were present? Haṁsadūta: Hm. Prabhupāda: "Why he is not silent?" Kṛṣṇa is not silent. Kṛṣṇa is speaking. Why you should be silent when I challenge you like this. He said, he could not answer. This is going on. So many things they are doing, if they are challenged, they cannot answer. You were present? I told him, "Why silent? Kṛṣṇa is not silent. He says continually, Bhagavān uvāca; page after page, and he's saying "Why he should silent?" He gave me the information that Brahman was silent and anyone who would go to him, he would remain silent and the message would be transferred. Bhāgavata: Rajneesh says the same thing. He says that Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna did not speak, Kṛṣṇa simply looked at Arjuna and Arjuna understood. But in order for Dhṛtarāṣṭra to understand, because he was blind, Sañjaya is speaking and he is explaining everything and Vyāsa has written down what Sañjaya has explained. This is, that is what Rajneesh says like that. So why does Sañjaya say Bhagavān uvāca? Prabhupāda: No, no. Sañjaya heard, then he said? Bhāgavata: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, then Kṛṣṇa is speaking, otherwise how he heard? Hm? This nonsense is going on. Everywhere, it is very difficult position. So many rascals. And we have to push on our movement through so many obstacles, but still we are going on, that is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Otherwise we are simply meeting with obstacles. What can be done? We have to go, forward. I, I met in... same idea! Impersonalism, bogus thought and no clear idea. Bhāgavata: One man came to Calcutta temple, and he insisted that Kṛṣṇa was impersonal, that He has no form. That He was, ultimately there is just the Brahman. I said that Kṛṣṇa says in the Gītā, brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham; He says, "that aham means the Brahman." I said that if that aham means the Brahman, then why is Kṛṣṇa being redundant in saying that the Brahman is subordinate to the Brahman? Brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham, He just said Brahman is subordinate to aham, Me. So if aham means Brahman then why is Kṛṣṇa saying the Brahman is subordinate to the Brahman? And they are swamis, yogis and avatāras. It is very dangerous position, very dangerous. We have to deal with all rascals and fools. And they have made some position, of course that position is nothing, hm? A big big, I mean to say, Mr. Nanda is also big thing, of this idea, nirveśeṣa-śūnyavādī; still we cannot change our position. We must go on with our conviction and that is real. Reality. So, begin kīrtana. (end) Morning Walk -- December 16, 1975, Bombay Prabhupāda: Their civilization begins from monkey, and our civilization begins from... Dr. Patel: From *Vedas*. Prabhupāda: ...Brahma. Dr. Patel: From Brahmā actually when he learned the *Vedas*. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Those four or five, five or four ślokas, original of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, I want to learn from you. I read all the commentary*-you have written commentary for four pages-but I think I am little mūḍha to understand it. (laughing) So I'll learn directly if you can teach me. I am now critically studying your, this thing, commentary on this. Prabhupāda: Hm. Very good. Dr. Patel: Once I read it, but now I am doing a critical study of it. Both of Sanskrit as well as your comments. [break] Prabhupāda: ...divided by separate words. Dr. Patel: It is written in purport too much (Sanskrit). The combination of this word is so difficult... Prabhupāda: ...recommended to study Bhāgavata from bhāgavata, not by grammar. Dr. Patel: No, no. But unless, I mean, I like Sanskrit myself, so I try to learn Sanskrit; I can read other, more Sanskrit books. So it is a sort of a study with me, as well as a knowledge of Bhāgavata. So I am trying to be more critical about it. But that way I have read Bhāgavata in Gujarati, even in Hindi (indistinct) Gorhakpur. Prabhupāda: ...*Viṣṇu Purāṇa*. Dr. Patel: *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* is (indistinct) from *Mahābhārata*. It is very easy. Extremely easy. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! (to passerby) Dr. Patel: Some of the, some people try to poke at us also. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Patel: They are fools. Prabhupāda: What is that? Dr. Patel: Well, because we, we chant God's name, out of fun they also say. But we... Prabhupāda: That is also good. Dr. Patel: That we should not take it like that. Prabhupāda: If one chants Hare Kṛṣṇa jokingly, that is also good. Dr. Patel: That's it. Yesterday morning you came? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I thought you were coming tonight. Because you, your letter has come that you reach on the (indistinct). Prabhupāda: What is that? God says "Let there be creation," and there was creation. Why three months? Dr. Patel: Ah, that is, we are not... (laughing) Prabhupāda: He says "Let there be creation"; there was creation. Dr. Patel: It was the will of God, so this is also the will of God. *Prabhupāda: Here you see, God says, "You come here," immediately you come. "You go there," immediately you go there. (Dr. Patel laughs loudly) You cannot bring the water by your scientific process, immediately. But when God says "Immediately"*-within a second. (sound of waves in background) Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: I am going to give you a small piece of news. My, that small daughter, she also took first*-class, first distinction name. Prabhupāda: Oh, bolo(?). Dr. Patel: She also stood first. My son also stood first and got the gold medal. She also got the same, by your grace! Prabhupāda: (laughs) By Kṛṣṇa's grace. Dr. Patel: This is unique perfomance in Bombay, that no doctor's two children have got first like this. Prabhupāda: Hm. All of them, M.D.? Dr. Patel: M.D. Very distinguished, first class. I was very much pleased... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...one is animal. So animal means ferocious. Dharmeṇa yena pasave samānaḥ. They're as good as animal. You cannot expect any good behavior from animals. This is going on. They want to keep the whole population animal, and they're making big, big plans*-United Nations, this, that. Dr. Patel: This is a problem. It's committed from the poor nations of the world, this United Nations. Prabhupāda: There is no education for making people a human being. Dr. Patel: Karl Marx, Hagel and Engels and those people have got this nonsensical idea that interaction of matter itself produces what we call consciousness. It is not the consciousness which I mean agrees with the matter. The very first basis on which this rascaldom is, I mean the basis is this: revolting against the tenets of Hindu teaching. No? *Prabhupāda: Hindu*-Muslim teaching... Dr. Patel: No, I mean sanātana dharma of this country. Prabhupāda: Sanātana dharma, there is no teaching; it is already there. Dr. Patel: Yes, that's it. Prabhupāda: There is no concoction. Dr. Patel: This concoction has come out from there. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, everywhere. In your country also there are so many parties... Dr. Patel: Karl Marx... *Prabhupāda: Karl Marx maybe. Even your Gandhi*-ism, that is also concoction. Gandhi invented nonviolence; *it is also concoction. It is impossible. Everyone is doing this*-something manufacturing. That is not sanātana dharma. Sanātana dharma is never manufactured. It is already there. You have to accept it, that's all. Otherwise everyone is manufacturing some conncoction. This is going on. Kṛṣṇa is teaching, "Fight." And Gandhi is teaching from Bhagavad-gītā nonviolence. Just see! Is it possible? Dr. Patel: The will of God is the real thing. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. His will is supreme. Whatever He says, that's all. As soon as you manufacture, everything is spoiled. Dr. Patel: It is fractured by man instead of manufacturing. Fractured, broken. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānas te'pisa*-tantryam uru-damni baddhaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Pisa tantrya, under the laws of God or nature, everyone is tied, hands and legs, and he's thinking independently, "I can do that." Dr. Patel: But slowly and slowly, sir, the modern science is trying to prove that sanātana dharma, the existence of God everywhere. Which in our times, if we respect scientists for their... Prabhupāda: "They are trying to prove" means so long they are rascals... Dr. Patel: They are rascals. I quite agree with you. You have caught my rascals. (both laughing) Prabhupāda: As soon as you say "progressing," that means they are rascals. Unless one is rascal, what is the meaning of progress? Hm? Rascal requires progress. Dr. Patel: Whether they do progress or regress we don't know, but... Prabhupāda: No, that progress means still rascals. After ten years they'll make no... This is progress. So they have no standard knowledge, and that is very much palatable, modern progress. Mūḍha. Dr. Patel: But sincerely by all these six, six, I mean śāstra, I mean what you call darśanals(?), our forefathers have realized God, by all the six methods of darśanas. Prabhupāda: You, why your forefathers? Everyone's forefather can understand. Dr. Patel: No, no. Other civilized people's forefathers. (laughs) The Āryan race. Nyāya vaiśeṣika also has told the same thing. This, such śāstra, I mean darśanas, are all from the *Vedas*. They are all from the *Vedas* you see. Prabhupāda: No, they are not strictly *Vedas*. They are partial. Just like mimāṁsa. They say that you do good work and you get the result. That is godlessness. *Dr. Patel: Karma*-mimāṁsa, karma-kāṇḍīs. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: But a karma*-kāṇḍī is one of the... Prabhupāda: "There is no need of God. You do your duty." Dr. Patel: And God will do His duty. Prabhupāda: "God is obliged to give you the award." That is their philosophy. We can practically see: suppose two men working very hard, are they getting the same result? Dr. Patel: No, that is their karma bandhana... Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! (greeting a few people) Jaya. Dr. Patel: Your explanation of this is so very wonderful about the all muktas and baddha jīvas in the beginning, I mean the *Bhāgavatam*, that even people, whether to remain mukta or baddha. And then when they became baddha, they were overtaken by the lower māyā. And then this is the whole cosmos. So gravely I have understood this, just this is my second reading. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa bhuliyā jīve bhagavān akore kari pasate māyā ta're japatiyā kare. Dr. Patel: I think this one commentary is Jīva Goswami's. Hm? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jīva... Not Jīva Goswami. There are... I consult so many others. Dr. Patel: This commentary is Rūpa Goswami or Jīva Goswami? Jīva Goswami. Prabhupāda: No, we have got Viśvanātha Cakravartī also. Śrīdhara Swami, Birarāghava, Vijayadvaja. Hare Kṛṣṇa! (to passerby who loudly greets and has Hindi exchange) *Dr. Patel: This man is seventy years old. (more exchange of greetings) He is sixty*-eight, sixty-nine years. He will be eighty years, (laughing) he wants to remain young that way. *Prabhupāda: Healthy, he's quite healthy. (Hindi conversation with other man) We repeat simply Kṛṣṇa's statement. That is our... Our mission is "Kṛṣṇa's standard"*-yare dekha tare kaha kṛṣṇa upadeśa. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Don't manufacture, rascaldom. Simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. And it is simple. And as soon as you try to manufacture, it becomes difficult. How Caitanya Mahāprabhu has made things so easy. That's all. How simple it is. You, every one of us, we take this missionary activities of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we see immediately the face of the country will change. Every gentleman, every sane man, may speak to his family, to his community, to his nation, to his friend, what Kṛṣṇa has said. Then see the result. But they're all manufacturing, conncocting. Becoming big scholars. The more you deviate from Kṛṣṇa's instructions, you become a scholar. *Dr. Patel: I mean the industrial revolution has really produced a sort of a turmoil in the social set*-up... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Because the machine has produced good, and the benefit has been taken over by the... *Prabhupāda: Ugra, ugra. This has been described in Bhagavad*-gītā, ugra karma. Dr. Patel: Yes. Ugra karma. Prabhupāda: Instead of making life simplified, they have made it a turmoil. *Dr. Patel: And then the whole society has been so entangled in this things. Independently (indistinct). In this way this industrialization, raising of the wants of men, and then production for the fulfilling of their wants. Only men engaged all the twenty*-four hours in this fulfillment of the wants. All the machines are grinding for that. Production of the goods, not for the good... [break] Prabhupāda: ...Karl Marx, why not others? Dr. Patel: Karl Marx is the grandfather of all of this. Prabhupāda: Anyone who is concocting, he is an āsura. Hm? Na vidur āsura ajana (sic). Pravitti ca nivṛtti ca na vidur āsura ajana (sic). Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) That is what they want. If they are competing with each other from tomorrow... Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya! [break] No. Why Karl Marx? Your Vivekananda says yata mat tata patha: whatever you manufacture, that is all right. Dr. Patel: That is because you are struck by the utter poverty of the people... Prabhupāda: No, no... Dr. Patel: It was temporary, you see. Because here Karl Marx wanted it permanent, and... *Prabhupāda: He himself is suffering from poverty*-of knowledge. Dr. Patel: Karl Marx, he committed the greatest sin... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says mam ekaṇ śaraṇaṁ vraja, and Vivekananda says yatha mat tatha path. Just see. He is poverty*-stricken of knowledge, and he's giving knowledge. Just see the fun. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said guru more mūrkha dekhī' kori... śāsan: [Cc. Ādi 7.71] "My guru found Me, seeing Me, I am a fool number one, he has chastised Me." What is that? "Don't read Vedānta; You cannot understand. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," because... Dr. Patel: Here we are talking about the divyā part of the... Prabhupāda: Because, no, He was questioned... *Dr. Patel: ...of the life. I talk of the maintenance of the body. To maintain the body Karl Marx put up this theory and, I mean, spoiled the whole thing*-whole society and social set-up. Prabhupāda: (Hindi to a passerby) Everyone is manufacturing; that is my point. Either Karl Marx or this one or that one, everyone is manufacturing. No one is taking the instruction. And our mission is "Take instruction of Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We don't manufacture like nonsense. What you'll manufacture? You are imperfect, your senses are imperfect... Dr. Patel: We are manufacturing only for the body, but all these... *Prabhupāda: Nothing you can manufacture, even in the body. You are medical practitioner, hundreds of men you see, different types of body. Is it not? You cannot say that this is the standard." Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgasya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu. The actual disease is the contamination of the guṇa. Dr. Patel: But they desire the people who are manufacturing for the guṇas only, and not for the soul. That is what I am hinting at. Prabhupāda: That is another ignorance. That is another ignorance. Dr. Patel: These fellows... That is what I said. That they are ignorant because they are only doing anything for the body and not for the soul. *Prabhupāda: Always guṇatīta. They do not understand traiguṇya*-viṣayā vedā nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Everyone is contaminated by the... Dr. Patel: All the lower, all this knowledge is no doubt traigunya. Superior knowledge. But spiritual knowledge is beyond the three guṇas. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. We have to transcend all these guṇas, and that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now they are realizing even in Western countries... Dr. Patel: But they will realize (Hindi). They will learn it by... Prabhupāda: (Hindi, makes Patel laugh) Kṛṣṇa juta maro ha mam kavi ne jan... Dr. Patel: (laughing heartily) ...you are very hard... Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of vihāya? (Hindi) Dr. Patel: We tolerate everything. (more Hindi) The whole civilization, the modern civilization, is wholly at fault. Unfortunate. And that is the schools we are sending our children to, and these are the public schools. Prabhupāda: (Hindi about the Gurukula in Vṛndāvana) Dr. Patel: They're getting (indistinct) of knowledge, after all they will (indistinct). Prabhupāda: We are opening gurukula, but who will give? A gentleman will not give. Hare Kṛṣṇa! (man stops and Patel introduces him) *Dr. Patel: He's a great scholar and poet of Gujarati literature, and he comes from the same place where the... Bet, he's from Bet, Dvaraka*-bet, where all those temples are. Prabhupāda: He's a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: Yes, he's a brāhmaṇa devotee of Kṛṣṇa. And a great teacher, he was at university, a professor of Gujarati literature and a great, well*-renowned poet... Prabhupāda: So you do not come to our temple? Man: Don't believe what he says! (laughter) I am just a humble servant. *Prabhupāda: That is wanted. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Gopī bhartuḥ pada*-kamalayor dāsa-dāsanudāsa... Dr. Patel: He only writes poems on God, Mr. Bethai. His name is Bethai, because he comes from the Bet. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Dr. Patel: Dvaraka*-bet. Prabhupāda: (Bengali:) ...puri sankhe bole mane ram. That don't go to any... Sit down anywhere and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Places of worship are sacred because of the, because sacred people are living there. *Prabhupāda: Govinda caraṇa kara sau*-always think of Govinda caraṇa. Prahlāda Mahārāja also. Mukundaṁ caraṇambujam. Make this business only. And Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī also, he, "Don't execute dharma, neither commit sinful life. Simply think of Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet." Kṛṣṇa also says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto... Dr. Patel: Sir, lotus feet; *these are, these people are actually putting such a long varga, I am trying to see the lotus feet of God here, arca*-vigraha. Well, I am unable. Instruct them to put up, little varga up, so that we can have darśana of His sacred feet. Please. Tell them. Too long vargas, you simply can't see anything. You were there on... Girirāja: That's in the morning, because of the night dresses. But after the śṛṅgara is changed for the day, you can see. Prabhupāda: How He's sat tight to call everyone to come and see. Hm? The municipality came to drive Him away. *Dr. Patel: You see the present municipal, I mean, administration has fallen into the hands of rogue rascals and horrid people, you know, because of these so*-called arald(?) franchise... (end) Morning Walk -- December 17, 1975, Bombay *(Hindi*-Dr. Patel and another man) Dr. Patel: The country is already murdered. What are you talking of murder now? Man: I don't want to talk of these things. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: They have gone mad now, sir. Actually they have ransacked the morality of this land, and they are going to ransack the social conditions. (Hindi) I have got one rifle, one revolver and one pistol. I am keeping always with me now. (Hindi) These people, sir, have really ruined this, this batch of rulers. Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. Dr. Patel: Sadar Patel by (indistinct). He was a man of practice. He could have... Prabhupāda: But who will live? Everyone will die. Dr. Patel: Everyone will die, that's right. These people, they behave as if they are living permanently. Then they are doing a bad thing, they think that they are... Prabhupāda: So we have to tolerate. There is no other way. Dr. Patel: That we are doing. Prabhupāda: Tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. They come and go. You have to do your business, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These people will come and go. Place everything at the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: (Patel and friend talk in Hindi aside) I don't drink. I hardly, I hardly go out one evening now. Man: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Hm? So what about this land we have given? Where is Saurabha? He is not coming? What about this land we have given for road? Saurabha: That is effasigh(?). We are using as effasigh(?) Prabhupāda: So effasigh(?) we are going to have for these evenings? Saurabha: We have about 60,000 sq. ft. of area we can build. Prabhupāda: We are going to (indistinct). Saurabha: For the other building. Prabhupāda: Other building? Saurabha: Yes. You were speaking about constructing another building on the back of the land. We can have one big building of about one hundred and eighty rooms easily. Prabhupāda: Then it's all right. Dr. Patel: One hundred eighty rooms? One hundred eighty? Saurabha: Yes. Dr. Patel: Very fine. After the building of this completely as per plan... Saurabha: Yes. And then we still have area for gurukula also. Another hundred rooms. Dr. Patel: Most people (indistinct) [break] Prabhupāda: Yesterday... Last night, I explained at the Birla house that you have to change only your care of. Now we are care of under material energy, and you have to transfer your under care of spiritual energy. They appreciated. *Dr. Patel: They are under the care of great māyā, mah*-māyā. Prabhupāda: Everyone... Dr. Patel: ...is sitting in the building, of all the Birlas. Prabhupāda: Not Birlas, everyone. (laughing) Dr. Patel: (also laughing) I don't know, sir. But I... I am a rebellion against them. In 1958, sir, I told you, the Congress, when I was a member of Congress, that I can't be the member of such an institution which just simply lies, telling white lies. Prabhupāda: No, no. You may say about congressman, and this one, Communist man; everyone is under... Dr. Patel: Is a rascal. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our verdict. Mūḍha. We understand from Bhagavad*-gītā... Dr. Patel: Why mūḍha, sir. Mudhatamaḥ! Prabhupāda: Yes, vimūḍha. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says not only mūḍha but vimūḍha; *viśeṣa*-mūḍha especifical. Prahlādah Mahārāja says the same thing: tato vimūkha-cetasā. Vimūkha cetasā means one who does not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. Tato vimukha-cetasa soce, and simply thinking of desires. Who are this? Those who are nondevotees, one who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Tato vimukha-cetasa. So why you are searching? Māy-sukhāya: simply for so-called sense gratification for a few days, bhāram udvahato vimūḍhān, making big, big plans. I am thinking of these rascals. What for they are making big, big plans? They will stay here for a few days, and forgetting Kṛṣṇa consciousness they are busy in making plans. This is Prahlāda Mahārāja. And Kṛṣṇa says they are mūḍha, vimūḍha. As soon as you find one, not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's immediately mūḍha, vimūḍha. Na mā duṣkṛtino mūḍh prapdyante narādhamāḥ. Dr. Patel: That knowledge is, I mean, perished by māyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyā will help you. If you want to forget Kṛṣṇa, Māyā will help you, how you can more and more forget. Dr. Patel: Māyā would help us even for finding out Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: No. māyā... Dr. Patel: ...because the body is the māyā, the mind is māyā, and the very mind will help us, sir, that doesn't it help us to go towards Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: No. That is not māyā's help. When you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, māyā will not bother with your business. That means you get relief from māyā. You are no more under the jurisdiction of māyā. You..., now you are under the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. māyā will trouble you so long you do not go in the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. Ye mā prapadyante māyā. *Prabhupāda: And as soon as you go under the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa, sarva*-dharmān paritiyaja mām ekam, then there is no jurisdiction of māyā. Just like as soon as the sun rises there is no more darkness, automatically. You do not require to dissipate the darkness. As soon as there is sun, everything is light. (aside to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya! Mam eva ye prapadyante māyām etā taranti te. This is the process. It is simple method. To become under the jurisdiction of māyā it requires great labor. But to become under the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa, it takes a minute. But these rascals will not do that. Kṛṣṇa... Dr. Patel: Because Kṛṣṇa Himself has made your eyes, all these indriyas outgoing, so... Prabhupāda: Indriya, He has made your eyes to see Kṛṣṇa, not a prostitute. That is your fault. Kṛṣṇa has given you eyes to see Him, but you are utilizing to see a prostitute. That is not Kṛṣṇa's fault; that is your fault. Eyes are not bad. Kṛṣṇa has given you eyes to see: Kṛṣṇa. But we are utilizing for other purpose. That is our fault. We are presenting this Kṛṣṇa's Deity in the temple, but who is coming to utilize his eyes? Nobody is coming. They will go to see cinema, beautiful actress; so they are ultilizing the eyes for this purpose. Dr. Patel: I have seen the last cinema in '58. "Gone with the Wind." Prabhupāda: Not your eyes... Dr. Patel: It was "Gone with the Wind." *Prabhupāda: So we are misusing everything. Therefore bhakti means stop this misuse. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170], that is bhakti. Whatever you have got, utilize it properly. Don't misuse it. That is all the instruction. Kuruṣva mad-arpanam. Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you are doing with your senses..." *Dr. Patel: ...kaunteya mukta*-saṅga samācara. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is wanted. The māyāvādī philosophers, they are taking because the senses are creating so much trouble, material existence, finish this-śūnyavādi. But that will not solve the problem. Problem will be solved that you keep your eyes. You don't require to finish it, but cure it. Just like you medical man. If one is blind out of cataract, you don't say that you pluck it, the eye, and throw it. No. "Please cure it and you'll be able to see." This is the difference between māyāvādī philosopher and Vaiṣṇava philosopher. They want to pluck it out, make it zero, śūnyavāda. Dr. Patel: Śūnyavāda. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the philosophy. Śūnyavādī means they want to make it zero. Your are troubling, you have got so much trouble with your eyes: don't bother, pluck it out! This is their philosophy. And our philosophy is, "No, there is no need of plucking out. Just cure it and you'll see." That is... Dr. Patel: That is what the Kaṭhopaniṣad teaches us. Prabhupāda: Every Vedic scripture will advise you. You take this Upaniṣad or that Upaniṣad; the ultimate is Gitopaniṣad. The final, Gitopaniṣad. Yes, *Gītā* is Upaniṣad. Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. That is always mentioned after each of them. Prabhupāda: Yes, Gitopanisad. So *Gītā* is the substance and summary of all *Upaniṣads*, and *Upaniṣads* means *Vedas*. That is the Vedic knowledge. Harikesa: But if you negate "I," there's no question of seeing. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikesa: If you negate the "I..." *Prabhupāda: The same principle, that "You are seeing. Now kill yourself: you don't see." That's all. The same philosophy. You are seeing and feeling disturbance*-better kill yourself; you'll not see, then all problems solved. This is their advise. Kill yourself. So who will agree to that? Dr. Patel: Yes, philosophically kill yourself, and get yourself transferred to a different life. Prabhupāda: No, no... Dr. Patel: I mean not physically, I mean as a philosophical point... Prabhupāda: "Kill" means you finish yourself, no more seeing... Dr. Patel: Finish your present ego... Prabhupāda: That is your interpretation. Killing means finish everything. Killing does not mean that you will again see. There is not killing. Harikesa: But you'll just go in another body... Prabhupāda: That is curing. Killing and curing. If you kill yourself, then whole thing is finished. But if you cure yourself, then you see rightly. So we advise cure, not kill. That is our philosophy. Dr. Patel: You mean cure the ego. Cure the ego. Prabhupāda: No, no. Cure the disease. Dr. Patel: ...ego is the disease. First disease man is overtaken by. Prabhupāda: False ego, you can say false ego. "I exist"; this is pure ego. I exist, that's a fact, and when we say "I exist for this life, I can finish it, there is no next life," that is not pure ego. Dr. Patel: That should be the ego of God or the ego of you. (Sanskrit) Whether God's ego or your ego, there cannot be two egos. *Prabhupāda: Sama hi, sama hi. You are already sama hi. Sarvam kalv idam brahma. You are already in Brahman. There is no question of samai. The rascal cannot see. They say samai. Why samai? You are already there. You do not know. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, brahma-bhūta prasannātmā. I am already here, prasannātmā. If you have the false impression that "I am out of brahman," that is, there is question of samai. But if you know that you are already in brahman, then where is the question of samai? Prasannātmā. This is real explanation. Brahm-bhuta prasannātmā. Now we understand that I am aha brahmāsmi. That is real knowledge. I am not this body, I am not American, I am not Indian. Aha brahmāsmi... Dr. Patel: "I am not this body." *Prabhupāda: Ah, that is real knowledge. But they are under the impression of this false knowledge. Therefore it is samai. Why samai? You are already there. Kṛṣṇa says mamaivāṁso jīva*-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. When the sun is there, the sunshine is also there. Always. So you are sunshine and Kṛṣṇa is sun, so we are already together. But the cloud is there. We are thinking "I am not sunshine; *I am cloud." That is misconception. But when we understand that the cloud is no more there, then aha brahmāsmi. Brahm*-bhūta prasannātmā. That is wanted. Under the fool's guidance you are becoming fool. And if we take the real guidance, then we come into the real knowledge. We have created a fool's paradise. Everyone is a fool, and he is promising paradise. Dr. Patel: This is called living under (indistinct)... *Prabhupāda: This is going on. Otherwise why there are so many rascals? (indistinct) The fools make it a fool's paradise. Take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Everything's all right. There is no question... Dr. Patel: This māyā is duratyayā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, mām eva... Why don't you surrender? māyā will not disturb. *Dr. Patel: (Hindi aside to someone) Sir, then, sama sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad*-bhakti labhate parām. In your, I mean... That is the highest... Prabhupāda: Yes, that you can say when you are yourself brahma bhūta [SB 4.30.20]. But if you are not brahma bhuta, that is not possible. They are trying to unite everyone in the United Nations, all cats and dogs. They are simply barking. There is no possibility of unity. That is not possible. They'll simply go on barking. And it is an association of dogs barking. That's all. So if you keep them dogs, there is no question of unity. If you bring them to brahman consciousness, aha brahmāsmi, then there will be unity. Dr. Patel: That is that sama sarveṣu bhūteṣu. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And then when you are in that stage, then you can become qualified to serve God. Mad*-bhakti labhate parām. So bhakti is not so easy. Manuṣyāṇā sahareṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. Dr. Patel: It is more difficult than... *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not difficult, but because they are rascals, they made it difficult. Kṛṣṇa says, "Immediately." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām eka śaraṇa vraja aha tvā sarva-pāpebhyo [Bg. 18.66]. "I'll give you protection-immediately, within a second." But they'll not do that. That is māyā. Kṛṣṇa says that it is so easy that you can become immediately brahma bhuta. Why you should waste time, many, many lives, to come to this conclusion that vāsudeva sarvam iti sa mahātm sudurlabhaḥ? Why you should waste your time, many lives? Do it immediately. Dr. Patel: Sir, we must have wasted our many lives in past, and we have come to this stage, who knows how... *Prabhupāda: Hm, we have come to this stage, we are reading Bhagavad*-gītā. You do it, now. Why you are delaying? If after many, many births I have come to this conclusion, surrender to Kṛṣṇa, why don't you do it now? That is intelligence. (Hindi about rupees) How rascal he is! (Hindi joke) (laughter) Kṛṣṇa says, "You give up all your duties and just come to Me. Immediately." (Hindi) These boys, they did it! That's all. Dr. Patel: We are grateful, sir. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Yes... (Hindi) No, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the nicest movement. Only intelligent man can take it. It is a fact. It is a fact. Dr. Patel: Maybe (Hindi). Prabhupāda: Fools, there are all fools; otherwise why the movement is there? The movement is there for correcting the fools. Otherwise there is no need of... Dr. Patel: So many fools are corrected... (laughing) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! (Hindi conversation with passerby) Dr. Patel: One of the renowned poet of Gujarat. His house is right next to the main temple in Dvārakā. Prabhupāda: There was one devotee, he, some Queen or somebody, she was approached by somebody, that two poets are come... Ah, Kalidāsa, yes. "Kalidāsa poet has come to see you." So she immediately said, "I know only two poets, Vyāsadeva and Valmikī, and all other poets I kick out!" Dr. Patel: This is *Rāmāyaṇa* and *Mahābhārata*. Prabhupāda: "I know only two poets." So she refused to see Kalidāsa. Dr. Patel: One Gosvāmi refused to see Mīrābai, and then she said that "There are only be men at the bhajana, not that... Kṛṣṇa is the only man..." Prabhupāda: One thing is, we don't find any authoritative scripture that Mīrābai ever met Rūpa Gosvāmī, but they say like that in Vṛndāvana. But from the life of Rūpa Gosvāmī, we understand that the Gosvāmīs were so popular in Vṛndāvana that if there was any family quarrel, husband and wife, they used to come to Rūpa Gosvāmi to settle up, and automatically he would give the decision, and they would settle up. So how it is possible that he did not see any woman? Dr. Patel: He did not, ah, Rūpa Gosvāmi or Jīva Gosvāmī, some other Gosvāmī, they say. Girirāja: It was Jīva Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: Jīva Gosvāmī? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Why Jīva Gosvāmi should not see woman? That is also doubtful. Dr. Patel: He, he did see Mīrābai. Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu also never refused to see woman. But womans were offering respect from a distance, that's all. Not very near. But we don't see that He refused to see woman. Why the Goswamis will do that? Dr. Patel: That is the story going round. *Prabhupāda: Then paṇḍitā sama*-darśinaḥ. How it is possible? Harikesa: There's that story of the one woman who was on His shoulder, on that (sic:) Nṛsiṁha column looking at Lord Jagannātha, and Govinda tried to take her down and Lord Caitanya said no. Prabhupāda: One woman, out of her eagerness to see Jagannātha, there was big crowd, she jumped up over the shoulder of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and the devotees said, (in an urgent whisper:) "Come on, come on down. What you are doing?" Caitanya: "No, she is so eager to see Jagannātha. Don't disturb. Don't disturb. Let her stand on My shoulder." So there is no question of hating woman. We want simply devotee. That's all. But unless we are very advanced, we take precaution. That is another thing. Dr. Patel: Man is very (indistinct) grahi. Mind... I mean Arjuna was told by Bhagavān in sixth ajya, "Mind is so difficult to control..." (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He says that "My mind is disturbed even by seeing a wooden doll of a woman." So that is also there. Dr. Patel: I mean the Vaiṣṇavas, sir, sādhus, they are not expected to look at the pictures of women. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not... Then how Caitanya Mahāprabhu allowed the woman to stand on His shoulder? Dr. Patel: He is, was a mahaprabhu. Not for us... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is the criterion, that if one is perfect devotee, then it is all right. And so long he is not or she is not perfect devotee, then there is restriction. Dr. Patel: In the sādhana stage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: ...it is the sādhana, completely sādhana (Hindi), then he is, everything is... Sama sarveṣu bhūteṣu. *Prabhupāda: For kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī. Dr. Patel: Sarve sameṣu bhūteṣu. We are not sarve sama as yet. Prabhupāda: So it depends on the condition. Dr. Patel: It is said that they are not only look at the female dolls, or even... Prabhupāda: But that is moral instruction. That is moral instruction. Even if you are not a devotee, you should not think of these things. That is the moral instruction. The brahmacārī, if he thinks of woman, that is also retricted. Dr. Patel: But in eight ways he must observe brahmācārya. Eight ways. All the five senses and the three..., mind (Sanskrit). Prabhupāda: What is the time? Harikesa: 7.10 a.m. Prabhupāda: So we shall return. (short discussion of actual time) Dr. Patel: It is 7.20 a.m. You are airport? Harikesa: Airport time. Dr. Patel: Airport time is wrong. Every clock is very different time there. Each one has its own standard. Prabhupāda: Some time back when I was a young boy, I went to see a football match in Calcutta. So after finishing, I came walking through the Bentink Street. So I saw one time in the beginning, and I came to my house, some watch, and clock is giving the same time. (pause) We are giving very simple formula: just become Kṛṣṇa conscious and all problems will be solved. All problems. Dr. Patel: Very easy formula for all the mūḍhas. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Like us. (laughs raucously) Prabhupāda: The Doctor is... Dr. Patel: Before you came here... You can say anything... Prabhupāda: This is intelligence. This is not mūḍha; this is intelligence. Guru mora mūrkha dekhi' koril śāsana. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a fool number one." Dr. Patel: So you see me also that way... Prabhupāda: No. That means He is intelligent. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was not a fool, that's a fact, but He presented Himself like that. He is most learned, but He presented before guru, "I am useless, worthless." Tṛṇād api sunīcena... Dr. Patel: I myself, sir, we are all (indistinct) not like you, we are worthless, we people. Unless you understand your worth... We are really worthless. Prabhupāda: That is very good. /Tṛṇad api sunīcena/ taror api sahiṣṇunā/ amānin mānadena/ kīrtanīya sad hariḥ. That is the qualification for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Humbler than the grass, tolerant than the tree, giving all respect to others, expecting no respect for oneself. These are the qualifications to become perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁs kṣāntir ārjavam. Amanitva. Although he is very qualified, he says "No, no, no. I have no qualification." Amanitvam. This is amānitvam. (aside to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya. This is the beginning of knowledge. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahims kṣāntir ārjavam. The materialistic, everyone, they're not amānitvam, our, "I'm so respectful." Dr. Patel: Not "I have done this." Prabhupāda: No, no. I don't say. This is the philosophy. Amānitvam adambhitvam. Where is that thing? That is taught from the brahmacārī. Brahmacārī, a small boy, he is taught that you become amānitvam adambhitvam, and he accepts it. Because he is small, the brahmacārī, he may becoming from a king's family, but if he's ordered, "My dear boy, take my shoes and brush it," he'll do it, because he's innocent boy. He learns. Therefore brahmacār gurukule vasan dānta. The mode of life should be trained from the brahmacārī. *Dr. Patel: This British public school, sir, they are doing that. The school of Harrow and the Eaton. The first*-standard boys have to brush the shoes of the fifth-standard boys, and the fifth to the sixth, and the sixth to the seventh, and first to the second... Prabhupāda: No, why not to the... Dr. Patel: And the first boy, his shoes goes to the teacher. Prabhupāda: Some idea... Dr. Patel: That is great idea. Prabhupāda: No. That is also imperfect. Anyway, it is something. Amānitvam adambhitvam: they from the very beginning of their life, they address other's wife as "mother," you see? Matrvat paridaresu. This is culture, to see every woman except his own wife as mother. Where is that culture? Man: Mahātm Gandhi also changed his life after brahmacārī... Prabhupāda: Hm? Man: Mahātm Gandhi? Prabhupāda: We are talking of real mahātmās, not politicians. Man: No, no. He was changing after brahmacārī, his life. Prabhupāda: I do not know, but... *Dr. Patel: He took a big vow. He took a big vow at the age of forty*-three years. That mahan, mah-vrata, what they call it? For not indulging in sex. Prabhupāda: That is one of the qualification... Dr. Patel: That is one of them. But by controlling their sex, people derive much (indistinct). Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Dr. Patel: Because I think woman is the personification of māyā. You can say that way. The whole thing is revolving round that. Prabhupāda: But if you become strong, Kṛṣṇa conscious, it may go away. māyām etam taranti te: there is no more māyā. Dr. Patel: We must be conscious like Mīrābai or gopīs or big, I mean, like (indistinct). When his wife died he said (Hindi), "I will be able to worship God a better way," when he lost his wife. These are the... Prabhupāda: No, that means he became Kṛṣṇa conscious after his wife was dead. (laughing) Not before! Dr. Patel: I mean, that is a saying, I mean... Prabhupāda: Why should I expect the death of my wife? Dr. Patel: No, his wife died, and he accepted that way. He was not expecting. We are all dead so far as we are Kṛṣṇa conscious... Prabhupāda: Dhīra means in spite of presence of agitation, if one is not agitated, that is dhira. And if I pray that "Here is the cause of agitation. Let her die," that is not very good. (laughter) Dr. Patel: No, after she died. You have misunderstood me, sir. You are, you are... Even a great bhakta,, a great Vaiṣṇava bhakta, and I mean I, I don't think he would... He would say... Prabhupāda: Why should I pray for somebody's death? Dr. Patel: He never prayed for her to die. (everyone laughing) He prayed that because now he will have less hindrance in the worship of God. That is what he meant. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is God conscious. Vaiṣṇava, vāñch*-kalpa-tarubhya ca krp-sindhubhya eva ca. Vaiṣṇava is an ocean of mercy. Why he should, we should expect another death...? No, no, I'm saying... Nobody, no Vaiṣṇava aspires or thinks that "He may be hampered or he may be harmed for my benefit." No. Dr. Patel: What he says, sir... *Prabhupāda: No, no. I am not argument about him. I mean to say, Vaiṣṇava means para*-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Vaiṣṇava should be always duḥkhī for others. Vaiṣṇava personally, he has no duḥkha. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja says, naivodhvije para duratyay vaitaranyas tvad-viya-gayana-mahamrta-magna-cittaḥ, soce tato vimukh-cetasa. They are simply anxious for the persons who are godless. That is their... Even they are godless, even they are enemy of the devotee, still Vaiṣṇava thinks, "How I can correct him?" Not that "He's my enemy. Let him die." "How I shall correct him?" That is Vaiṣṇava, para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. He is under ignorance, he is talking nonsense-"How shall I correct him?" That is missionary spirit. Dr. Patel: Ten minutes. 7.10. Prabhupāda: So we can go. It is very nice movement... (noise) They have paid already some lakhs, hm? Girirāja: Ashoka gave three lakhs previously for Vṛndāvana. He said he wants to give more to... Prabhupāda: ...he's devotee. Devotee: He said he enjoyed the program very much also. Prabhupāda: Who said? Devotee: Ashoka did. Prabhupāda: Accha? Ashoka's mother said also. Girirāja: Well, he also, when we were taking dinner, he came up and he said he enjoyed it. Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, he said. Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Therefore they did not put any questions. Dr. Patel: Yes. It is very difficult to put question to you. (Prabhupāda laughs) You mow the opposition down very badly. (laughter) Prabhupāda: It is all Kṛṣṇa's... Dr. Patel: I am a shameless man to give questions... (laughs) Prabhupāda: How long did I speak? *Harikesa: Hm, about forty*-five minutes. Prabhupāda: That is my standard. (Hindi exchange) Man: In that Birla house. Prabhupāda: Birla house? Huh. Girirāja: The program was in the garden. Man: I was there, in that Birla house. Prabhupāda: You were in Bombay? Man: Yes, in that last room, on that other side. Prabhupāda: ...once. Kīrtanānanda Swami has come, he reported that sometimes these European and Americans, they do not like our version, and sometimes they purchase and tear the books, hm? And still they purchase! (laughs) That is the beauty. Dr. Patel: Europeans... *Prabhupāda: No, no. In America. Kīrtanānanda was saying. They tear these pages, and again still they purchase. This example is given. Just like hot sugarcane juice. Because it is hot, it cannot be taken. But one cannot avoid tasting it. (laughter) Sugarcane juice hot. Because we speak everything against their so*-called knowledge, and still they want to taste it. Hot sugarcane juice. Dr. Patel: Your this Bhāgavata commentary is really wonderful. I am critically studying now. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Dr. Patel: Second reading of mine. On the first reading I just... Prabhupāda: Yes, they read our books for the purport. Dr. Patel: But you have collected from, I mean, two, three, four or five... Prabhupāda: Dimmock said that "Here is the commentation who has practiced devotion in his life." Dr. Patel: I mean, those who are research scholars, they can write down better about their work if... If I write down about the... Prabhupāda: He cannot write the... Dr. Patel: ...write down that way. Because you have done it, you can do it better. Prabhupāda: That is our mission. Āpani ācār prabhu jīver śikhāmu. First of all you behave yourself, then teach. Without being accomplished in your life, don't teach. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement was that. Āpani ācār prabhu jīver śikhāmu. Dr. Patel: You teach by your action. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...alpa citte bahu kori mane. This is the warning of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Dr. Patel: The Vaiṣṇavas, I mean teaching is that the Vaiṣṇavas should not see any faults in the sādhus or the sannyāsīs. Just look at the good side, then... Prabhupāda: No, no. That, you may do that. But that is not a sannyāsī. Sannyāsī is smoking cigarette, drinking tea,... Dr. Patel: Then they are not sannyāsīs. (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Hm. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. (Hindi about Pāgala Bāb in Vṛndāvana) Hm, who goes there? No gentleman goes there. Dr. Patel: So many people say (Hindi) about these American boys smoking their hashish, their LSD. They are smoking all sorts of things. *Prabhupāda: They have learned from India. The American hippies, they have learned from these so*-called rascals. Yes. Ginsberg, he introduced this. He came to India, went to Haridwar, he saw so many rascals, sādhus, smoking gañjā. He thought, "This is the way..." Dr. Patel: Acchā. Celo. Prabhupāda: No, (Hindi). Hm. *Dr. Patel: Same thing*-our boys have started smoking LSD in the colleges here. Yes, yes. In Grand(?) Medical College boys have started smoking. They know very well that it is a bad thing, medical students. Never bother the arts and science schools. (Hindi) Because their ideal starts from American precedent. The last precedent (president?) was so idealistic, so... (laughing) Girirāja: A few days back in the newspapers there was..., smoking causes damage to the brain... Dr. Patel: It causes damage everywhere, because it damages your blood vessel which carries the vital fluid to all the organs. The blood vessels are spoiled and narrowed down so not sufficient amount of blood will get to your brain, to your heart, to your lungs, your everything practically. Follow? This is not one of (indistinct). They smoke this ganja, sir, because artificially they go into a sort of a trance. That is what the psychedelic drugs. Prabhupāda: That man also says like that. Dr. Patel: Psychedelic drugs. I mean I read about these psychedelic drugs, and then, you see, this artificial trance, no doubt, that is much different from the samādhi that you get. But they, that is why they are tempted to do it. Same with the LSD. That means they find some sort of a pleasure in it. Sādhus get pleasure in samādhi, they get this artificial samādhi by drugs. Hm? Prabhupāda: Sādhu, they take pleasure in real happiness. Satyanandi. Rāmante yoginam ante satyananda. They do not know what is satya, so how they will take pleasure? Dr. Patel: They are ātmārāma. Prabhupāda: Para satya dhīmahi. They do not know what is para satyam. Dr. Patel: Temporarily they get this param satyam... (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yogi means satyānanda... Dr. Patel: (Hindi about temporary pleasure) They go down. Man: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: The whole, I mean, Japan was practically done, I mean, done to practical death by this opium smoking. Prabhupāda: In China also. The Britishers, they were taking opium from India and selling there and making money. Dr. Patel: And now Chinese leaders were rejoicing that American boys smoking LSD. (Hindi conversation) Prabhupāda: Saurabha, you have brought these logs from Vṛndāvana? Saurabha: Yes. Prabhupāda: So why they are lying idle? Saurabha: They are not ours, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Then why it was brought here? Saurabha: They will be used for the temple. They will be used for the scaffolding. For those high things. Because otherwise we have to cut them, and it's very waste of money. Prabhupāda: Hm? Saurabha: If we cut them... Prabhupāda: No, not cutting. Saurabha: No. These poles, they all set in size about nine feet. You notice they're about fifteen to eighteen feet. So we use them only for the scaffolding. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) ...anyhow, they have done it very quickly. Our engineers could not have done it so quickly as that. You are quite fast. And the structure is very strong. Prabhupāda: (laughter) I say they are quite slow. Dr. Patel: No, no, but it takes its own time for curing and all these things. How can an engineer accelerate that natural process? And that structure is really extremely strong. Prabhupāda: No, no. We want to see the temple also. (kīrtana) (end) Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay Prabhupāda: .... very enthusiastic. Dr. Patel: I got up very early today. Prabhupāda: By the grace of Kṛṣṇa keeping good health. Dr. Patel: Yes, I have got... Prabhupāda: You never use the shoes. Dr. Patel: But on sand this shoeless, this walking it is very... Prabhupāda: Nehi, it is practice. So remember mahā jasha advertised. Indian man: It is medicine. Prabhupāda: No, not medicine. Dr. Patel: I practice..., all the time. Indian man: (indistinct) Dr. Patel: But sannyāsīs walk without anything. *Prabhupāda: First rate is rupees ninety*-five. And the second one? *Girirāja: The second one is seventy, but he thinks that he can get it down to sixty*-five. Dr. Patel: (Hindi comment about dirt) Prabhupāda: New York is the dirtiest. New York. There you'll find so many of these papers scattered. In New York. Even the park, the most celebrated park, Central Park, they are all full of dirt. Girirāja: The city is going bankrupt. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Which? Girirāja: New York City. Dr. Patel: America will never go bankrupt so far material prosperity is concerned. Already some people say... Prabhupāda: There is no guarantee, sir. *Dr. Patel: No, there is (Hindi, everyone laughs). I'm sorry. Your words. Very, very crafty people in business. Nobody can beat the Americans in business. They are monopolizing the world of business today. The prosperity of America is due to the, all the (indistinct). It is correct. (pause) This is Kali*-yuga. People are so faithless, human race has become faithless. They have no faith in God, they no faith in themselves, and then their friends and other human beings also. *Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Modern..., not faithless: animals. Yes. Dvīpāda paśu, two*-legged animals. Yes. They are animal, but two legs. That is the exact word used in Bhāgavata. Two-legged animals. Dvīpāda, dvīpāda-paśu. Dr. Patel: I think the human race should become all right by getting all these mark from God, all these... Prabhupāda: That is going on. That is going... Dr. Patel: This war, last, second war was so horrible, and the third will perhaps be finishing the whole cosmos. *Prabhupāda: That war is always there. But still they remain two*-legged animals. It requires education. Dr. Patel: But sir, I often wonder that Jesus Christ was so wonderful, I mean brotherhood and all these things, and these, practically people following his creed are warring like this. Prabhupāda: No, who is following our *Gītā*? Dr. Patel: Hm hm, I mean practically why... Prabhupāda: Why do you blame them? We are also doing. Nobody is following. That is animalism. They have got direction, but they won't follow. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jaya! Jaya! Mr. Sar, why don't you come and see how things are going on. You are expert in... Mr. Sar: Nicely sir. I see it every day. Very good concrete building. Prabhupāda: So if there is any defect. Mr. Sar: It is perfectly..., Prabhupāda: Now we want to finish this. If you have got any good contact on labor? Mr. Sar: Contact labor? Labor contact? Prabhupāda: Yes. (some short discussion) We want to finish as soon as possible and give another set of contract. Labor contract. Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. I'll try to find out. (some discussion about contractors) Prabhupāda: [break] ...is the form where the animal can take education and become a human being. Dr. Patel: Now these human beings they get educated from animals. *Prabhupāda: No, no. This is not education. This jara avidya, material education, is no education. It doesn't require any education. This education for eating, sleeping, education, that is not education, that is cats and dogs they also know how to do it without education. Real education is brahma-vidyā. Athāto brahma jijñāsā*-this is education. So that is now given up throughout the whole world. Nobody is interested in Brahman; they are simply interested in sense gratification. Dr. Patel: Because I think, sir, the method of education the world over is absolutely different... Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not education. The education for eating, sleeping, that is not education. Dr. Patel: The way we were educating, our forefathers are educating their children, by this method of sending them to a guru in an āśrama... Prabhupāda: That is real education. Dr. Patel: And then they are prepared right from the brahmacārī āśrama for the highest goal, till they become a sannyāsī. Here he, he's neither this nor there. Prabhupāda: No, there is no education. Real education is not there. Just like Cānakya Paṇḍita, he was not a spiritual man, but he was a prime minister. Still, he gave the standard of becoming educated. He said, *Here is paṇḍita. What is he? Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu: he sees every woman as mother, except his own wife. And para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat: and other's property, possessions, just like garbage. And atmavat-sarva bhūteṣu: and feeling for everyone as he himself is feeling the pains and pleasures. If one has attained this stage, then he is considered educated. He never says these degrees. No. Dr. Patel: These degrees are artifacts. *Prabhupāda: That is upādhi. Education is to become upādhi*-less. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. But they are increasing upādhi. Dr. Patel: People think so far as they are concerned that education means giving the knowledge of how to read and write. I think it is the knowledge and not the education. The education is something different, that trains up your mind how to think, how to, I mean, separate grain from the chaff. Prabhupāda: Education means ethical. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is education. Dr. Patel: No, but I mean to say, you must know how to separate the grain from the chaff. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā begins education, instruction. Immediately He puts forward that you are not this body. That is the beginning of education. Where is such education? Everyone is thinking, "You are this body." "You are Indian, you are American, you are Hindu, you are Muslim." What is education? Bhagavad-gītā says you are not this body. That is the beginning of education. And now education means be nationalist. Drive away and bark... Dr. Patel: (something about passport in Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, why passport? Even in our country, Mahātmā Gandhi was also infected: "Quit India." "Quit India." Dr. Patel: No, he did not mean quit India. He meant "You quit your matter of ruling." I mean actually... Prabhupāda: It was the exact word, "Quit India." Dr. Patel: You know it more than me, sir, that in 1929 he told Britishers that "You rule India from the basis of they are ruling Canada." So he offered to give them ultimatum. Britishers did know real stuff of India, otherwise they would have acted better. *Prabhupāda: That's not.... As soon as you think "He is my enemy and he is my friend," then there is no education. That's all. This is standard of education. Ātmavat sarva*-bhūteṣu. That is education. Sama darśinaḥ. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva [Bg. 5.18]. That is education. That is.... Kṛṣṇa says, nanu śocanti paṇḍitāḥ. Nanu śocanti paṇḍitāḥ. "Ah, you are rascal." It is not the business of the paṇḍita to think like that. He never thought that the Kauravas were the enemy. No. That is not the fact. It is duty to fight the just cause. That was His instruction. *Dr. Patel: Mr. Nehru said Kṛṣṇa was the greatest war*-monger. Prabhupāda: And he is a rascal. Dr. Patel: (laughing) He was saying so. He thought himself to be very big man. He thought himself... Prabhupāda: Everyone thinks. Everyone thinks. That is asuric position-"Who is like me." Dr. Patel: (quotes some Sanskrit) That is asuric. Prabhupāda: And bhakta... Caitanya Mahāprabhu is teaching tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. There is no education; *therefore Kṛṣṇa has spoken of these people as mūḍha. "No, they are educated. They have passed so many examination"*-māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. This kind of education has no value because they are forgetting the real point of education. māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Dr. Patel: So what is āsurī, would be... Prabhupāda: Āsurī means godlessness. "There is no God; I am God." Dr. Patel: Believing in the... Prabhupāda: No, no. "There is no God. I am God." What is that beginning? Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na vidur āsura ajana (sic) [Bg. 16.7], and? There is no creator? What is the exact word? Harikeśa: Apratiṣṭham. *Prabhupāda: Apratiṣṭham. There is no cause of this creation. Kāma*-haitukam: it has taken place just like a man becomes lusty by seeing a woman and he begets a child. This is the cause, this rascal desire. That's all. *Dr. Patel: Kiṁ kāma*-haitukam. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) That is the Sāṅkhya philosophers. That is their theory. Prakṛti and puruṣa come in contact by chance, and there is creation. Not God created. Their theory is, the prakṛti and puruṣa, they come in contact by chance, and there is creation. Dr. Patel: But sir, this Sāṅkhya philosophy also believes in *Vedas*. And *Vedas* says sa aik sata. Prabhupāda: No, no. Sāṅkhya philosophy by the original Kapila, that is on the basis of *Vedas*. And this later Sāṅkhya philosophy... Dr. Patel: Must be some another rascal. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Now you have learned! (everyone laughs very loudly) Dr. Patel: I am learning. (laughs raucously) *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! There are two sāṅkhyas. Kapila. One Kapila is..., therefore he is described everywhere as devahūti*-putra. Dr. Patel: Kapila, the basis of the yoga. *Prabhupāda: No, yoga is Patanjali. Aṣṭāṅga. And yoga is also there in Bhagavad*-gītā. Dr. Patel: Sāṅkhya is the goal by knowledge, and yoga is by... Prabhupāda: Yoga.... Actually yoga means to keep the mind fixed up, yoga indriya samyama, to control the mind and the senses. That is yoga. Then other activities. If your mind is not controlled, you are in disturbed condition, then you cannot perform it. So it is a process to control the mind. And if one is able to control the mind, then he becomes real yogi, and at that time, dhyānavasthita, meditation. Dhyānavasthita tad gatena manasa paśyanti yaṁ yogi. Then he sees the Paramātmā always. That is perfection of the.... (aside to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya! (Hindi) *Dr. Patel: All the śāstras have been spoken out by Lord Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad*-gītā totally. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is substance. Summary of all *Vedas*. He says therefore, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo. Dr. Patel: (some muttering in back) Ha. He said yogo apra... yoga can be caught and lost also. But bhakti cannot be lost. Indian man: What is the any question of lost? How do you get disjoined with the God? Dr. Patel: Listen, if you are artificially joined, then you are dejoined. Indian man: No, no. Then it is not yoga at all. Then you stop, automatically (indistinct). Dr. Patel: That is why (indistinct). Indian man: Once then you say yoga then you are entering. You are not outside it. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) There are so many types of yoga, sir, as you know. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā summarizes, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā [Bg. 6.47]. That is real yogi. *Dr. Patel: Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad*-gatenāntarātmana sa me yuktatamo mataḥ. That is the highest yoga. *Indian man: Yoga means karmendriya*-dhāraṇām. Where is the question of yoga... *Dr. Patel: No, no. When the indriya*-dhāraṇām is not (indistinct) it becomes (Hindi). Then it is faith, then yoga is there. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yoga indriya-śamanam. The result of yoga is control*-mind and senses, śama, dama. *Dr. Patel: So many types of yoga, even bhakti is called a yoga. Bhakti*-yoga. Prabhupāda: Yes, yoga. Everything is yoga which links up. Dr. Patel: (talking of a passerby) He used to join, used to join with yoga as (indistinct) with youth. Prabhupāda: So, we shall return? Dr. Patel: Seven o'clock. Yes. Prabhupāda: .... yoga. Viyoga, viyoga means disconnected. Yoga and viyoga, the opposite is viyoga. So viyoga is material. Dr. Patel: Separation. Prabhupāda: Bhinnā me prakṛti aṣṭadhā [Bg. 7.4]. Those who are connected with this material energy, they are apparently viyoga. So we have to attain for yoga. That means turn back again back to Godhead. That is yoga. Dr. Patel: He quoted that thing from Kathopaniṣad. Prabhupāda: Hm, what is that? *Dr. Patel: Yogo bhavateo. Yoga can be caught and can be lost. Yoga can be caught and can be lost. So that type of yoga. Not this bhakti*-yoga. *Prabhupāda: No, this is lost, when you are in materially, that is lost. And when you are spiritually joined, that is gained. Yoga and viyoga. Tasmād yogī bhavārjuna, Kṛṣṇa says Arjuna to become yogi, bhakti*-yogi. Dr. Patel: Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ yogatena āntarātmanā [Bg. 6.47], and then, er,... Prabhupāda: In another place... Dr. Patel: Yo māṁ bhajate ananya bhāk.... sa me yuktatamo mataḥ. Yogo māṁ bhajate ananya bhāk. Prabhupāda: Sa sannyāsī sa yogī ca. (Hindi) No, akriya means no material activities, only spiritual activities. That is akriya. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya! (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Sir, this karma and (indistinct) it is said, akarma means knowledge, and karma means that karma which binds you with this. Prabhupāda: Hm? Dr. Patel: That karma which you do which binds with the... Prabhupāda: Karma means you are implicated with the result. That is karma. And vikarma... Dr. Patel: That karma which you do without any links on it, for the sake of God, tat tat karma tu kaunteya sa sannyāsī ca... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yajñārtha*-karma, that is real. Yajñā... Dr. Patel: That is what he has explained. Prabhupāda: Yajñārtha means for the satisfaction... Dr. Patel: Yajña means for Viṣṇu. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yajña means Viṣṇu. For the satisfaction of Viṣṇu, one has to offer. And Prahlāda Mahārāja therefore says that these rascals, they do not know. Na te vidhuḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. These rascals, they do not know what is real self-interest. Svārtha-gatim. Dr. Patel: But they are, they are body conscious. So the svārtha body is this one. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: They are not soul conscious because they... Prabhupāda: Therefore they are na te vidhuḥ. They are working hard that "This is my interest." But actually that is not his interest.... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Dr. Patel: The interest of the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not in his interest because it is changing. Suppose a person comes to a foreign place, and he becomes only interested in where he is staying, and after a week he is driven away. Then what is interest? You are eternal; you must have eternal interest. Dr. Patel: That education comes from the *Vedas*. *Prabhupāda: Therefore we say that there is no education. They do not know what is interest. They are making a small limitation, that "This is my country. My interest is to become a national. I will sacrifice my life for this, that, this..." Whole world is going on like this. Na te vidhuḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. Dr. Patel: And, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. That is brahmacārī. Where is that education? *Dr. Patel: This education are given to the Vaiṣṇavas in their homes. They are Vaiṣṇavas. But then so*-called Vaiṣṇavas, many of them they are ruthless. Ruthless, absolutely ruthless... Prabhupāda: (indistinct), kṣatriyas, there is no (indistinct) kṣatriya... Dr. Patel: No, what I mean to say... Prabhupāda: ...everyone is śūdra. Dr. Patel: No, no, really sir, but they are in business. They don't consider that they are this soul; they consider the body comforts and body... Prabhupāda: That is śūdra. One has to become a brāhmaṇa, jñānam. But they have no knowledge; *therefore they are śūdra. Brahmana means jñānam, vijñānam and āstikya: "Yes, there is God, and He is the original cause of everything." That is brahma*-jña. Brahma jñānārthī brāhmaṇa. So where is brāhmaṇa? All śūdras. Kalau śūdra sambhava-especially in this age of Kali, everyone is śūdra, or less than śūdra. But still Kṛṣṇa gives the opportunity striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. How? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya [Bg. 9.32], he may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even the śūdras, they also. Dr. Patel: Just like the essence of the Vedic knowledge has been given in the story form in the Bhāgavata. That is how these people could understand that. These... Prabhupāda: It is not story. It is history... Dr. Patel: No, no, some are stories and divya stories. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is history and philosophy. They are not stories. Where it is a story, it is mentioned it is like a story. Just like this bhāvārthābdhi.. That is mentioned there. There are many such statements which is not history, but, what is called? Instruction. But they take everything, "It is fabulous." Dr. Patel: From the lives from the so many saints, and... *Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) If you want to be learned, then you have to read Bhāgavatam. Vidvāṁś cakre satvata. Vidvāṁ means Vyāsadeva. He compiled Bhāgavatam for the education of these rascals. Na te vidhuḥ svārtha*-gatim. The same thing. They do not know what is their self-interest. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi visnu. And another place, anartha. This is anartha. Without knowing the real self-interest, they are engaged in so many so-called duties. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān: "Give up all these duties," but they will not do. Therefore Vyāsadeva says, anārthopasamaṁ sākṣād... These unnecessary engagements cannot be given up, anarthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje [SB 1.7.6]. To teach them bhakti yoga... And, anārthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhoksaje lokasyājānato. These rascals, they do not know it. Lokasya ajānata. Ajānato lokasya. They do not know how to get free from this unwanted situation. But to get them free, vidyā... Vyāsadeva is vidvān, vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Anārthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje lokasya ajanataḥ. Ajanato lokasya, they do not know, Hm? The same thing, a dog, what does he know what is the interest of life? Therefore Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu has advised that because all these rascals are filled up all over the world, "Each one of you become a guru." Yes. So many gurus required. Āmāra ajñāya guru haya tāra ei deśa, wherever you are living, you just try to deliver your family, your neighborhood, your friends. Deliver, tāra. Tāra means deliver. "How can I do it? I am not a guru; *I am a common..." "No. You have to become a guru." "How?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa': [Cc. Madhya 7.128] simply repeat the instruction given by Kṛṣṇa. Then you will become guru. Dr. Patel: But for the saṁsārīs, sir... *Prabhupāda: Saṁsārīs, (indistinct) for the saṁsārīs. When Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14], this is for saṁsārīs. Saintly person doesn't require anna. It is meant for the saṁsārī. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Catur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam: [Bg. 4.13] This division of society is meant for the saṁsārī, to control division of labor. Everything is for the saṁsārī. It is not meant for the paramahaṁsa. Paramahaṁsa-saṁhitā is Bhāgavata. This is ABC. These people, they do not understand even the ABC. This is the difficulty. They cannot learn even the ABCD of spiritual knowledge. Dr. Patel: Whether tyāga is meant for the saṁsārīs? Prabhupāda: Tyāgāt means one must be disgusted with this material way of life. This is tyāga. But they are being educated to be more attached to this material world. Dr. Patel: This modern education. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: How to make a successful life. Like... *Prabhupāda: Vairāgya*-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. That is bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga also, vidyā. Vyāsadeva also says, anārthopasanaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam. To get rid of this entanglement, unnecessary things, the only means is bhakti. Dr. Patel: Modern advancement of science is actually here, entangle the man in more and more bonds. But by raising, creating more bonds for comfort, comfortable life... Prabhupāda: What comfort? Dr. Patel: Comfortable life means... Prabhupāda: That is another... Dr.Patel: Comfortable life means comfort of the body. Prabhupāda: To get a comfortable life, one has to work so hard: "Where is comfort?" Dr. Patel: (laughs) Yes. That is his foolishness. In Europe they actually run in the morning to go to their work. They run like mad dogs. Prabhupāda: But we are also... Dr. Patel: They may start running now. They are following them. Prabhupāda: No... Dr. Patel: And I remember that I used to laugh, the way they were running in the work, sir. *Prabhupāda: That is here also. Everywhere. Therefore Bhāgavata says, "No, no, no. This is not life." Nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājām nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān [SB 5.5.1]. So much labor for getting your bread. That is immediately stopped. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: That is the misfortune. And how it started, this ball? Who made the ball rolling? He, he makes the ball. This is modern education. Prabhupāda: No, no. Everyone is the architect of his own fortune. Dr. Patel: No, no. I talk of the samaṣṭi sir. He... Prabhupāda: Samāṣṭi, sama and aṣṭi together makes samaṣṭi. If you become devotee, I become devotee, everyone becomes.... Then samaṣṭi, devotee. And if you are nondevotee, I'm a nondevotee, then.... Combination of nondevotees. That's all. We have to therefore change this group, where we shall live. Satāṁ prasanga mama virya sambhava bhavānti nitkarma. (indistinct) If you live with the devotees, then these topics of transcendental subject matter becomes palatable. Otherwise it is nonpalatable. Therefore they do not like to come to the temple to hear our lecture. Nonpalatable. Dr. Patel: You fire them! (raucous laugh) *Prabhupāda: No. How can I say anything which is not spoken by Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is.... Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamā māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā [Bg. 7.15]. So we have got this test: if anyone has no interest in Kṛṣṇa, he must be with these groups, that's all. Duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yare dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa' [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. So how can I violate? Dr. Patel: No. Prabhupāda: Both ways. I cannot violate. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that you simply speak what Kṛṣṇa has said, and Kṛṣṇa says that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a rascal. He is a most sinful man, he is the lowest of mankind. So why shall I not say? It is not firing; it is telling the truth. (laughs with Patel) But I am not loser. I am, I do not make any compromise. All these my students ask, I never made any compromise. But still they understand, and they are with me. Dr. Patel: But we are also with you. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, those who are outsiders. In Los Angeles, so many scientists used to come, so after talking with them, I used to say, "You are demon, you are rascal." And they tolerated. (everyone laughing) And they remained for two hours talking and then taking prasādam. They were happy that I called them demons and rascals. Dr. Patel: Well you have to call them fools also. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Well, when I say rascal it includes everything. (laughing) In Bengal it is said, "When I curse somebody, 'You die!' then all everything it is included, finished! You die." (Hindi) *This is Indian birth. To understand the whole Vedic philosophy and to give this knowledge to everyone. That is para*-upakāra. *Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) Then you become mukta*-saṅgaḥ samācara. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: All the work should be done for God. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our duty. Just like a servant and master. What is the duty of a servant? Simply you wait for the order of the master. And execute. That's all. Then he's perfect servant. He doesn't require any qualification. Simply if he's ready, the master will order: "I will do." That's all. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityaja mām ekam, "Be ready always, what I say, direct." And Rūpa Goswami says, ānukūlyena-kṛṣṇānu-śilanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Ānukūlyena, favorably. Always wait, as Kṛṣṇa becomes satisfied, for the order. Then you are perfect. Ānukūlyena-kṛṣṇānuśilanam bhaktir uttamam. That is first-class bhakti. It doesn't require any education. Just like Hanumānjī. He was not born in a human society even, but he was always ready to execute the order of Lord Rāmacandra. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: ...human society (indistinct) support the devotee. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Support the right man who is after Bhagavān, not to the rascals. That is the problem. Dātavyam iti yad dānam tad sattvikam. Here is the person. Here, one has dedicated his whole life for Bhagavān, give everything to him. That is dānam. Dānam sattvikaṁ rājasi tamasi. One is a rascal, then what is the use of giving him dāna? Dr. Patel: Even you do not give dāna, he will take away by thievery. Prabhupāda: Anyway, that is a misuse. Misuse. Dr. Patel: Dānam, dānam... (quotes Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: If you make tamasic dāna, then you become implicated with his sinful activities. Suppose you want to kill somebody, and you're asking, "Can you give me a nice knife?" "What you will do?" "I shall kill that man." "All right, take it, dānam. I am giving you in charity." So he will be implicated. In the court, if it is known that that man supplied the knife, "Arrest him. Bring him immediately." Dr. Patel: So what do you think about this America has supplied a lot of grain free of charge to this country, and that grain is fed to the whole of this poor population, and they are not God believers? Prabhupāda: No, no. The Americans, they give to the government, and they are free. They have given to the government. Dr. Patel: Sattvika dāna. Prabhupāda: Yes. The government, Indian government, is in necessity. In necessity, "All right, give it to the government." Their duty is finished. But if the government is rascal, that is their responsibility. Dr. Patel: But suppose you had given me a knife to mend the pencil, and I stab somebody with it. So, like that. Prabhupāda: What is that? Dr. Patel: You have done a dāna to me, giving your knife to mend my pencil, or some useful work, and I stab somebody with the penknife, so... Prabhupāda: That is your responsibility. Dr. Patel: No, but then the dāna that you did was not tamasic. Still, it has ended in tamasic action. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything. Just like the money. Money is not material. You can spend it for constructing a temple for Kṛṣṇa. Then it is not material; it is spiritual. Everything originally..., nothing is material. But when it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Otherwise, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ tena.... tyaktena bhuñjithā [Īśo mantra 1]. If everything is belonging to Kṛṣṇa, how it can be material. He is spirit, so everything belongs to Him, so how it can be material? Material means when Kṛṣṇa's things are not used for Kṛṣṇa, for oneself, that is material. Dr. Patel: And that is sin also. Anything which is not... Prabhupāda: Material anything you do, yajñārthāt karmano'nyatra loko yam. Anything you do, if it is not meant for Kṛṣṇa, then you are criminal, immediately. Dr. Patel: Sinful activity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately. To spiritualize everything, Kṛṣṇa says therefore, yat karoṣi yaj juhosi yat tapasyasi dadāsi.... yat kuruṣva mad arpaṇam. Then it is spiritual. Immediately. Karmāny evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. *Dr. Patel: Tad*-arthaṁ kārma kaunteya. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is spiritual. Yajñārthāt karma, everything is there. Unless you do it for Kṛṣṇa, everything is material and sinful. *Dr. Patel: That's a fact. If you are doing work tad*-arthaṁ karma, then you become mukta, because there is no, I mean, taking with you anything. Mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like government servant, soldiers, they are killing so many; *they are not responsible, because he's doing for the government. Police beats you, but he cannot bring any charge against the police. Another man, if he little slaps, you can bring charge, immediately. That is tad*-arthaṁ karma kaunteya. The police and military department, they are doing for the government. Dr. Patel: [break] ...eḥ? Very good discussion we had this morning. And we thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Dr. Patel: (Hindi) (laughs) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: (Hindi) is sufficient. If you get one man who follows you, he is more than thousands who is... Prabhupāda: Yes, if you attend daily, I can speak daily. Dr. Patel: I do come daily, don't I? (laughing) Prabhupāda: Then I'll speak. Just like Śukadeva Goswāmi, he spoke *Bhāgavatam*, and there was only candidate Parīkṣit Mahārāja. But he said continuously for seven days. Dr. Patel: Those ṛṣis came to hear. Prabhupāda: Yes, because he knew that "Here is a gentleman, he'll understand." Dr. Patel: But I am not that.... Parīkṣit.... I am a fool. Prabhupāda: No, the standard is like that. Dr. Patel: I am a fool, sir. As you have been calling me very often. It is the satsaṅga which really caused the (indistinct). Prabhupāda: This is the version of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. *Dr. Patel: And when you read Bhāgavata you also get the sat*-saṅga, because the, all the histories of so many saints... *Prabhupāda: Yes, Cānakya Paṇḍita also advised: kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sādhu samārgama(?). This is..., he was a politician, and still he said, kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sādhu samārgama, and smara nityam anityada kuru punyam avoratram. This is his advise, that give up this bad association of atheist class of man. Sadhu means devotee. Durajana means nondevotee. So kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sādhu samārgama. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says like that. When He was asked by one gṛhastha bhakta, "What is the duty of a Vaiṣṇava?" Caitanya Mahāprabhu immediately said, asat*-saṅga tyāgī ei vaiṣṇava acāra. A Vaiṣṇava means he must give up the association of nondevotees. Then the question will be, "Who is nondevotee?" Asat-strī-saṅgī kṛṣṇa bhakta... One who is too much attached to material enjoyment. Strī-saṅgī is the basic point, and one who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he is asat-saṅga. Asat-saṅga-tyāgī..., there are two lines. And the moralist, Cānakya Paṇḍita, he also said, kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sādhu samārgama. You give up something, you must take something. Otherwise you will not be able to stay. Dr. Patel: Nothing can act independently. *Prabhupāda: Yes, simply negative is useless. These jñānīs, they simply teach negative*-brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. But they do not take to Brahman; they simply take the one side, jagan mithyā. They take the.... Brahmā satyam, take to Brahman... Dr. Patel: Then the second half they are not taking. Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know how to remain in Brahman. No, they do not know; therefore we say rascal. You realize that you are Brahman; now your next business is to stay in Brahman. That they do not know. Dr. Patel: Behave as Brahman. They don't behave. Prabhupāda: Ah. Either behave or stay, the same thing. Unless you become fire, you cannot stay in fire. Dr. Patel: That's right. *Prabhupāda: So these people, they realize arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam [SB 10.2.32]. By severe austerity and penances they rise to the Brahman platform, but from there they fall down. Why? Adho 'nādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ. Because brahmam platform means to be engaged in devotional service. Brahma bhūyāya kalpate. Mām ca yo'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena [Bg. 14.26]. If you want to stay on the Brahmam platform, then you must render service to Kṛṣṇa. And if you simply realize that "I am Brahman," then you'll be misguided by māyā: "Oh, you are the Supreme Lord. You are Bhagavān. What is the use of worshiping another Bhagavān? You are Bhagavān." māyā says it in a different way. māyā says that you are a rascal, but think that you are Bhagavān. Dr. Patel: This ātmarāma supposed to be tolerant. Prabhupāda: So the rascals, under the dictation of māyā, they are thinking "I am God," that's all. They have no intelligence even, that "How I can be God?" *Dr. Patel: Sir, even Śaṅkarācārya has taught the kuru*-bhakti. But these rascals who are following Śaṅkarācārya, they are not following correctly. He was doing bhakti, bhaja govindam he has... *Prabhupāda: Bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govinda... He has asked, mūḍha*-mate. One who is rascal, he does not worship Govinda. In this he says, "You rascal, nahi nahi rakṣati duḥkṛṅ karaṇe, prāpte sannite koro marame. You have learned so much grammar, grammatical jugglery to interpret śāstra in this way, that way. These things will not help you at the time of your death. You rascal, bhaja govindaṁ." Bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha-mate. "You rascal!" He says mūḍha! (everyone laughing) Dr. Patel: I think the modern philosophers are misinterpreting the Śaṅkarācārya... Prabhupāda: Because they are mūḍhas. They want to remain mūḍhas. That is their fault. *Dr. Patel: Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 18.54]. They are not sama. *Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya, because he had to deliver people from this nāstika philosophy, bauddha, so for the time being, he made some compromise. The bauddha says there is no God, and he said, "Yes, there is no God. You are God." So if he realizes himself brahma*-bhūtaḥ, then he'll be engaged in devotional service, that was his purpose. Unless he says that, that "Yes, it is not the fact that there is no God. There is God, but that God you are." Dr. Patel: That is the final argument is that if there is no God, who said there is no God? And that is God. That is what he said. Prabhupāda: (laughing) So you know better than me. Dr. Patel: No, no. I did not know this, I read it... Prabhupāda: But I know, what is his policy? His policy was to make this godless men to think of God, that "I am God." That is.... Let him be accustomed with the word God, then gradually he will understand. It is called ahaṅgrahopāsana. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Therefore I shall worship myself. Ahaṅgrahopāsana Nikatena, jagatena, ekatena. It is mentioned in the Bhāgavata, ekatena. That "I am Brahma. So I shall worship myself." Dr. Patel: No, but he had also mentioned about bhuma puruṣa. That there is really a... Prabhupāda: No, there is, but this is one of the beginning stage, ekatena. "I am one," monism. Ekatena tena bauddha visatum aham. (indistinct) Dr. Patel: That passage, ekatena bahutena bahuda visato mukham(?) That passage comprises all of the philosophies of India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pantheism, monism, dualism. Dr. Patel: And qualifies, I mean.... Somebody has very well commented on that particular śloka, giving all the views of Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Jīva(?)ācārya, and all the modern.... Somewhere I read, I don't know where, on that particular śloka. After all these things, ācārya, ācārya para... Prabhupāda: Ācāryopāsanam... Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Without ācārya... Prabhupāda: Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. One who has accepted ācārya, he knows, he knows. Now our these European and American boys are preaching in South India, big, big ācāryas, they have received them. Because they know that these boys know; latest letter. Hare Kṛṣṇa! (end) Morning Walk -- December 19, 1975, Bombay Prabhupāda: What is platform? Saurabha: Casting of slabs and footings. [break] Prabhupāda: ...every day I don't think. Dr. Patel: They eat anything but, sir. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Dr. Patel: So they get their food all right. They may not get our food every day, but their food they get. Prabhupāda: No.... They eat meat, they don't get... Dr. Patel: They eat even stool. Just like hogs. Prabhupāda: That also a human being does. You know in concentration camp in second war they had to eat their stool. Dr. Patel: But the British army had a regulation that they could drink urine but not stool. They cannot eat. Prabhupāda: You may make regulation, but necessity has no regulation. Dr. Patel: I.... because I happen to be.... I, I was holding the honorary position of a colonel in the army... Prabhupāda: Just see, "I am making law: you can drink urine." Just see what is the position. (laughter) Dr. Patel: In difficulty if there is no water, you can drink your own urine, but you cannot eat your stool. It is very difficult. Prabhupāda: If I drink urine, still I will have to be punished. By the law. I'm drinking urine, and because I have violated law, I will have to be punished. This is God. Dr. Patel: There is, sir, one matter in Ayurvedas, svayāmbu cikitsā, wherein people are drinking their own urine, because urine is not only water and waste products but there are certain broken, I mean what you call important articles, of body maintainence. Prabhupāda: So those.... You are advising your patients to go and drink...? Dr. Patel: No, I don't say. But that is not so bad, because it contains those hormones.... (Prabhupāda breaks in laughing) It does contain the hormones, I mean it has been analyzed like that, scientifically. It is not to be joked about. Prabhupāda: No. It is analyzed. And stool is full of hydrophosphites. Yes, that is another.... Stool is full of hydrophosphites. Dr. Patel: (Hindi to another man) They are bringing.... There is a matter in cikitsā in Ayurveda. Svayāmbu. What is that called? So, Mr.... our er, Mr. Desai. Morarji... Prabhupāda: He is drinking? Dr. Patel: ...who lost his premiership of India, he is drinking his own urine. Man: (indistinct) also. Dr. Patel: Yes. He is drinking. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Why? Dr. Patel: And look at him. He's so, I mean, so absolutely healthy. I mean it is, we should not laugh about it, but there is something right in it. Prabhupāda: No, no. I don't laugh; I am surprised! (devotees laugh) Dr. Patel: No, we are surprised. I also, I also was surprised first, but then it is not so. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa! Thank you very much (to passerby) Who is your devotee daughter? *Dr. Patel: Janice. Jani! (calling to passing man) His mother was so much great devotee, she died only at the age of ninety*-eight years. When she was... Prabhupāda: Hm? Dr. Patel: His mother. She was dying, and she said, "I don't want to see anybody; *bring only Kṛṣṇa's photo before me." (Hindi to other man) No, no. His mother*-Mr. Jani's. And then looking at the photograph of Kṛṣṇa, she breathed her last. *Prabhupāda: I saw in Delhi one old man, just a few minutes before his death he asked his son to bring Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa picture, and it was put before him, and he died. *Dr. Patel: And my father died saying oṁ tat sat śrī*-kṛṣṇāya namaḥ, and then he stopped it, breathing, in the morning at six o'clock. Man: Morning, that is very good. Dr. Patel: Yes, six o'clock. And my wife was daily saying bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam before she died. Prabhupāda: Hm. (to devotees) Just see: govindam. Dr. Patel: Hm. That bhaja govindam she was very fond of. Śaṅkarācārya's bhaja govindaṁ, bhaja govindaṁ... When I used to talk about Sanskrit literature, she said "Why do I want to know grammar? Bhaja govindam is all right for me." She said. Hm? ...Stubhyāṁ bhagavate vāsudevaya I don't know how many thousands of times, for the whole day. Prabhupāda: Hm. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. *Dr. Patel: My father never did any work in all his life. Never. He had some estate, and then he lost it also. We are big zamindars, and he lost all the land and property in various forms of business. And after that he only was sitting in the temple all the day and saying hari*-nāma. All his life, from the age of forty years till he died at age of eighty, he did that. My mother died when he was thirty-two years. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Patel: Very early. And he never married again, and I was the only son and no other daughter or son. Many people requested him to marry, but he said no, he would not marry, because one son is sufficient. Prabhupāda: Yes. putradi (?) bhāgya. Putra, when there is putra, what is the use of marriage? Dr. Patel: I was five years old when my mother died. In that big, pandemic of influenza in 1918, that..., that... Prabhupāda: Yes, war influenza, after war. Dr. Patel: After war. The whole world was (indistinct). [break] What you do for the... Prabhupāda: He did not remember God, he remembered his son. But God is so kind, because he uttered God's name, He took it seriously. Dr. Patel: That Mr. Shah had gone to the States and came back from there, some three months back, and he praised the Americans, that no man on Sunday is in the street. All of them are in the churches, and you hear on the radio only those hymns. Is it a fact? Prabhupāda: He is American. (indicates Harikeśa) Harikeśa: Yes, but nobody listens to the radio. Dr. Patel: He says that at least government does it. Here government is giving all the cinema. And there the churches are overflowing. Prabhupāda: In London I have seen almost all the churches are vacant. Dr. Patel: On Sundays? I don't know now. When I was a student I used to see them full, overflowing practically. Because they were beaten down by war very recently, they did not forget God then. Harikeśa: On Sundays they're pretty full. For a couple of hours they're pretty full. Dr. Patel: In the morning. Harikeśa: Then in the afternoon they're vacant. That's when they get their big collection, big collection on Sunday. Dr. Patel: Sir, everywhere it is the church which has actually distorted the message. Prabhupāda: Hm? Dr. Patel: It is the church which has distorted the message. You see the Christ's message is distorted by the church; our Kṛṣṇa's message is distorted by our temples, sort of a thing. Prabhupāda: Why temples? Even your big, big political leaders, they distort. By do you blame the temples? Dr. Patel: But Christianity is distorted by the... Prabhupāda: Everyone. That is going on. *Dr. Patel: ...those popes. However, Christ taught bhāgavata*-dharma, absolute bhāgavata-dharma. It is this creation of the church, really to my mind, that the Christ is forgotten by the Western countries. Prabhupāda: And who is remembering your Kṛṣṇa in this country? Dr. Patel: There are a few people. I, we are not that... Prabhupāda: In Bombay, there are so many roads, "Vivekananda road." But there is no Kṛṣṇa Road. Hm? Who is remembering Kṛṣṇa? Dr. Patel: There is Kṛṣṇa Art Gallery, in market. Kṛṣṇa Art Gallery. (laughing) (Hindi conversation with man about Kṛṣṇa's name) Ajāmila spoke "Nārāyaṇa." You may speak in the name of your father, that his called name. Heḥ? Prabhupāda: That is a chance; that is not... *Man: Now the Air India's plane, they have kṛṣṇa*-līlā pictures. Prabhupāda: Eh? Man: In Air India plane. Prabhupāda: That is sense enjoyment. Only Rādhārāṇī and Kṛṣṇa. And when Kṛṣṇa is killing Kaṁsa, that picture is.... Killing Kaṁsa, that picture you won't find. Kṛṣṇa is embracing gopīs, "Ah, that is very nice!" (laughter) Because "We are doing the same thing, we are following Kṛṣṇa." That is their purpose. They are very much fond of Kṛṣṇa's mixing with the gopīs because they get a support, that "What we are doing..." Dr. Patel: "We are following Kṛṣṇa!" Prabhupāda: Yes. These rascals, they have taken... Indian man: But this, sir... *Prabhupāda: They will never paint any picture of Kṛṣṇa is killing Pūtāna, Aghasura, Bakasura, Kaṁsa*-so many killing process from the very childhood. That picture you won't find. Because he knows he is Aghasura. He'll be killed. (laughing) Dr. Patel: We see pictures of Giridhārī, like that. Now we see even Giridhārī picture. Sir, it is the education. The disturb the education of this country after Neccola (?). That is the cause of it. Prabhupāda: Naḥ, Necolla(?) has gone long, long ago. What you are doing now? Dr. Patel: Necolla(?) have made it sir. Prabhupāda: You can change it. That Necolla(?) has conquered you. Dr. Patel: That's right. They did conquer us. These priests even are not tending even the system of education. Śravaṇānanda: At the Ramakrishna Mission school in Madras near a football field, there is one slogan on the arch that says, "The playing of football will bring one closer to heaven than the study of the *Gītā*." Prabhupāda: Just see. Has Neccolla(?) carved this? Śravaṇānanda: He said, "Tear up all the big tulasīs..." Dr. Patel: Is it a fact? We don't know. Prabhupāda: It is a fact if he says. Śravaṇānanda: Yes. It is written right there, it's written right there. They say the playing of football will bring one closer to heaven than the study of the *Gītā*. Prabhupāda: Yes, Vivekananda taught this. Śravaṇānanda: He said "Pull out the tulasī and plant brinjal." Prabhupāda: Yes, he advised, better water what is called, eggplant tree, than tulasī tree. It will bring some fruit. What is the use of watering tulasī tree? Dr. Patel: Tulasi has got great medicinal properties. Prabhupāda: That he is not even prepared to... Dr. Patel: He must not be knowing. Those rascals. Prabhupāda: And "Why you are searching out God here and there? There are so many Gods loitering in the street." This is the Vivekananda's statement. And therefore everyone is God. Everyone is thinking, "I am God." This is going on. Śravaṇānanda: When we went to try to arrange a lecture at their football field for a pandal program, they said all the people coming would ruin the turf for cricket season. So they didn't have time for spiritual training, they said, only for the physical training. It caused too much damage on the field. Dr. Patel: In my school, sir, where I was educated, in the entrance there is a statue of Sarasvatī, and nearby there is a photograph of Kṛṣṇa. I don't know how it came, that one. Prabhupāda: Hm? Dr. Patel: All are not like that. In my school where I was educated, secondary school, in the entrance there was a statue of Sarasvatī, and near that was Kṛṣṇa's photo. (pause) (someone shouts Hare Kṛṣṇa) Prabhupāda: In good health. Dr. Patel: He always runs like this. All the time. He is so much frightened of his wife in the house that he cannot speak a word. Still he is in the house. That is why he makes good of the things when he comes out. (laughs) He behaves so naughtily like that. (Hindi with one man) Sir, shall we go this way, if you don't mind? Prabhupāda: That Mr. Punja is staying? From Fiji? He has not come? Devotee: Oh, no, he hasn't come back yet. He had two days' business, he said. He said he would come after that. [break] Prabhupāda: ...doing there, these slums? Dr. Patel: This was, they wanted to, er, have a officer of customs. The public, I mean, objected to, because they are imposing upon them, the way of the public walking. So they stopped it, but they are not taking away all these walls. Otherwise where the poor fellows will make the hutments? Prabhupāda: That is what they are doing. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) The municipality has no objection. (Hindi with other man) Therefore Gandhi says that he does not give away these poor people... Prabhupāda: Then why they are in the hands of the empire lost? Why they lost their empire? Dr. Patel: Because they were shortsighted. Prabhupāda: But how they knew? Dr. Patel: But they knew how to govern. Prabhupāda: No, this is not government, if you lose after all. What is this government? You must govern in such a way that you will never lose it. Dr. Patel: Well, sir, we also had an empire, India, and we have lost it, haven't we? And we, all the eastern country, Malaya, Java, Sumatra, and all those things. Why we lost it? Kālena! Prabhupāda: Kālena of course. So when you lose your culture, then you lose everything. Dr. Patel: That's right. Because they did not see with the same eye all people. They were the rascals. (indistinct) ...a very good race. After all, we are Aryans. Prabhupāda: Aryans means to follow Vedic instructions. Dr. Patel: They have forgotten. *Prabhupāda: That is Aryans. So they are now the same thing. A person born in a brāhmaṇa family, he is claiming "I am brāhmaṇa." Similarly, even though born in Aryan family, without any culture they are claiming "I am Aryan." Kṛṣṇa observed it in Arjuna, and therefore He chastised him, "This kind of proposal is anārya*-juṣṭam. Under the non-Aryans, you're forgetting your duty." That is the beginning of loss of culture. A small beginning, it creates havoc. Kṛṣṇa warned this, anārya-juṣṭam. Kṣatriya's description is given in the Bhāgavata: yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam, not to go behind. They must fight. That is Aryan culture. Dr. Patel: They are doing strategical fight. Strategically great. They should not repeat, but our army is doing strategical fight. *Prabhupāda: There is a Bengali saying*-palabanata boineki(?): "Am I afraid of you, that I shall not go away?" Dr. Patel: (laughing) I understand. Prabhupāda: "I must go away. That is my independence!" Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa says specifically, kṣatriya, yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam: "You must fight. Face." Dr. Patel: That yuddhe must be also religious. Not... *Prabhupāda: Yuddha... Everything must be religious. Why yuddha? Your ordinary living must be also religious. Otherwise animal. Animal also lives. But if you don't live religiously, that is animal. Dharmena hena paśave sa. If you live like animal, then you are animal. If you live like human being, that human being means dharma. We cannot expect any dharma in the animal society. It is meant for the humans. (someone gives Prabhupāda something) Hm, thank you. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that a flower without smell and a man without education*-the same thing. A flower without smell, similarly, a man without education. Dr. Patel: Sir, what is the distinction between a culture and an education? Prabhupāda: Culture means human being. Dr. Patel: Human...? *Prabhupāda: Human being. Just like Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu. This is culture to see every woman as mother. This is not education. Education, the modern meaning of education is rubbish, to learn ABCD. This is not education. Without culture, what is the meaning of education? Dr. Patel: So culture is the background for all these things. Prabhupāda: Yes. Education is required to help culture. Not that you take degrees from the university and remain a dog. That is not education. Here is education, as Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says: Here is a description of paṇḍita: first of all learn how to see other woman as your mother. There the culture begins. And they are, from the very beginning of the school college life, they are learning how to entice one girl. This is education. *Dr. Patel: They are following the so*-called advanced countries. Prabhupāda: Advanced means Freud's philosophy. *Dr. Patel: So*-called advancement. Prabhupāda: Sex philosophy. This is their education. So how you can expect gentlemen? It is not possible. From the very beginning there is no culture, animal culture. Just like dogs, as soon as he finds another female dog, he wants to have sex. This is education. Dr. Patel: One friend of mine he told me that this culture is vultures' culture. They eat anything and everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not vultures. It is called hog civilization. The hog, they eat anything and they have sex with anyone. Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. These animals they don't distinguish between their own bodily relatives. *Prabhupāda: Nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭan kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. This is instruction. Where is culture? Culture is lost. So therefore there is no value of education. And besides that, education means spiritual education. Brahma-vidyā. This education how to make aeroplane or a nice bridge or a machine, this is called kalā-vidyā. This is not vidyā. Dr. Patel: Para and apara vidyā. Prabhupāda: No, kalā.... Kalā means artistic. Suppose a carpenter, he knows how to make a very nice, good furniture, does it mean that he is educated? He knows the art, some artistic way, that's all; but he is not educated. But nowadays it is going on that if you know some art, technology, then you are educated. This is not education. Education means culture. Dr. Patel: Yes. And culture means... Prabhupāda: Culture means human life. Otherwise dog's life. There is.... Adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam. Everything is described. Amānitvam: first of all you have to learn how to become humble. And here all the people, they are educated how to become proud. What is education? Dr. Patel: Christ says, sir, the meek and humble shall inherit this earth. They unfortunately, the followers of Christ are not meek and humble. *Prabhupāda: And this culture cannot be maintained unless one is God conscious. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā [SB 5.18.12]. There cannot be any culture for a godless person. That is not possible. And, yasyāsti-bhaktir bhagavaty-akiñcanā. Just like this European and American boy is offering obeisances to the guru, this is culture. Why he has learned this culture? Because he has become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā, sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. If you make one devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then all culture will automatically come. One thing. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: So all devotees are cultured? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Theirs is really culture. Prahlāda Mahārāja says, tam manye' dhitam uttamam, śravanaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu*-smaraṇam pāda-sevanam arcanam. Tam manye' dhityam uttamam, he is first-class educated. This is recommendation by Prahlāda Mahārāja. And Kṛṣṇa says, "If one is not God-conscious: duṣkṛtino, mūḍhā, narādhamā, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā." Where is their qualification? Duṣkṛtina, mūḍha. Where is culture? Suppose you steal by tricks, by, I mean to say, by legal tricks, does it mean it is culture? But that is going on. Dr. Patel: That means, sir, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ, yat kiñcid jagatyāṁ jagat, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. That should be the background of all the governments. *Prabhupāda: That is bhagavad*-bhakti... (end) Morning Walk -- December 20, 1975, Bombay Prabhupāda: Suppose if you come from other side and you land on Arabian desert, does it mean that you have gone... Indian man: They have gone on earth, some other part of the place... Prabhupāda: And I say they have not gone to moon, that is my point. (laughter) Dr. Patel: They have become "moonies." Prabhupāda: The might have gone to some hell, that is, I have no objection. Indian man: Or the moon or anything. Prabhupāda: Huh? (laughing) This is a little revolting (revolutionary). But I am speaking from the very beginning. Yes, I wrote that *Easy Journey to Other Planets* in 1958, and you'll find this statement in my book. It is all childish. Dr. Patel: You have to be yogi for that. Prabhupāda: I am yogi because I am taking lessons from the yogis... Dr. Patel: Yoga dhāraṇā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogi, I am taking lesson from Śukadeva Gosvāmī. I may be fool, but I am taking lesson from the yogi. Yes. So yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtir [Bg. 18.78]. I don't require to be a yogi. I take shelter of the yogeśvara. *Dr. Patel: Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad*-gatenāntarātmanā [Bg. 6.47]. *Prabhupāda: So, my problem, there is no problem, because as soon as there is Kṛṣṇa, śrīr, vibhūtir, victory, everything is there. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. So we have got everything, but I am not a yogi. We must believe in the words of Bhagavad-gītā. Yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ yatra dhanur-dharaḥ pārthaḥ tatra śrīr vibhūtir vijayo. Everything is there. That art we have to learn, that let us become dependent like Arjuna on Kṛṣṇa, then everything is there. *Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇaḥ sarva*-bhūtanāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati. Prabhupāda: Yes, and He teaches also... Dr. Patel: You consult Kṛṣṇa within before you do... Prabhupāda: Yes, but Kṛṣṇa is not so foolish that He will give consultation... Dr. Patel: He'll give consultation free of charge... *Prabhupāda: ...to the nondevotees. Arjuna was a devotee. That teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīthi-pūrvakam [Bg. 10.10]. One who is constantly engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, to him He gives intelligence, not to the rascals. Kṛṣṇa is there, but-even in the heart of the pig or dog-but He does not give any instruction to the pig and dog. They must suffer. But only to the devotees: teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam. To them. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is staying everywhere. *Dr. Patel: To them He gives yoga*-kṣemam. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is open to even cats and dog. You'll get your food. They're getting their food. That is not very difficult thing. Eko yo bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. Kṛṣṇa is..., Kṛṣṇa, He can, ah, bhū*-bhṛt, bhūta-bhṛt. His name is bhūta-bhṛt. He is maintaining everyone. *Dr. Patel: Bhūta*-bhṛt, bhūtastho. *Prabhupāda: Bhūta*-bhṛt means (Hindi). All living entities are being... Dr. Patel: But He is bhūtastho also. *Prabhupāda: That is also, but another name is bhūta*-bhṛt. He maintains all living entities. So that is not a very difficult job. *Dr. Patel: But sir, I want to ask a question. In Bhagavad*-gītā He says, "I am in them, and I am not in them also." That means, sir, both His, all the beings are in the... *Prabhupāda: No, "not in them" for the understanding of these rascals whose takes it that because Nārāyaṇa is everyone, heart, then everyone is Nārāyaṇa, daridra*-nārāyaṇa. Dr. Patel: Not daridra. Prabhupāda: Or to warn these rascals, He says, "I am not there. I am not there." Dr. Patel: It is not like that, that He is there... Prabhupāda: Because he is a foolish man, if you say "Because Nārāyaṇa is there, everyone is Nārāyaṇa," he will misunderstand. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "No, I am not there." Na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ. This is the... Dr. Patel: Would it not be considered like this, sir, that He is in the Golok as well as here? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Goloka, position of, goloka eva nivasaty akhilātmā*-bhūto [Bs. 5.37], that is Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: Akhilātmā*-bhūto. *Prabhupāda: But don't take that because akhilātmā bhūto, Nārāyaṇa is in the dog, therefore I have to worship dog. This is going on. Daridra-nārāyaṇa. And why not dhanī-nārāyaṇa? What is the.... This foolishness is going on. And Nārāyaṇa is everywhere. If you have such a, I mean to say, advanced vision, that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere*-that is also mentioned; *therefore you should keep respect*-then why do you make discrimination, that only daridra-nārāyaṇa? Why not dhanī-nārāyaṇa? Indian man: Last time you gave the example of the curd and the milk. That was very good example. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Why the..., not dhanī*-nārāyaṇa? Or the dog Nārāyaṇa or the goat Nārāyaṇa? Goat Nārāyaṇa cut his throat; fish Nārāyaṇa cut his throat... *Dr. Patel: Ātmavat sarva*-bhūteṣu, sir. Prabhupāda: These rascals are going on. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "I am not there, nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ," to teach these rascals. Otherwise, they'll misunder... Dr. Patel: Does it not mean, sir, that nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ, "I am staying in Goloka"? Prabhupāda: No, no. He says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam [Bg. 9.4], "I am everywhere, but still I am not there." Because these rascals will misunderstand. Dr. Patel: It seems ambiguous to understand, sir. Prabhupāda: Not ambiguous. It requires knowledge from the guru. Dr. Patel: So we have come. Prabhupāda: If you manufacture your own knowledge, then you'll never be able to understand. (everyone laughs) Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] compulsory. You cannot understand; that is not possible. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that the honey, huh? Honey, honey, if somebody says, "Take this honey," the bottle, and he began to lick up the bottle: "It is not sweet. Why it is not sweet?" You go to a person who can open the bottle. (laughter) Then you'll see. You cannot taste the sweetness of honey by licking up the bottle. It must be... There must be some expert who can open it, and then you can taste. So they are trying to taste the honey in the bottle by their own imagination and licking up the bottle. Where is the taste? Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says, One who has seen, one who knows where is the honey is there, go there, and he'll open, and you'll understand. Dr. Patel: So "I am not there for the rascals, and I am there for you," like that, is that the meaning you say? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Dr. Patel: "I am not there for the rascals, and I am there for those who are tattva*-darśanas." *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the way of learning everything. You cannot learn your medical science from a pān*-wālā. You have to go to a medical college. Dr. Patel: They also give some (gowdies?) in the pān. Prabhupāda: But you cannot take your degree from the pān wālā. Nowadays some of the rascals, they are preaching openly that you haven't got to go to a guru. Huh, is it not? Indian man: Krishnamurti is... Prabhupāda: Yes, this rascal was speaking like that. Devotee: He has thousands of disciples. Prabhupāda: Such kind of.... as he is. *Dr. Patel: Nehi, kṛṣṇaṁ vande jagat*-gurum. He is a jagat-guru, if you approach Him also, there is no, I mean physical guru nearby, kṛṣṇaṁ jagat-gurum, kṛṣṇaṁ vande jagat-gurum. Prabhupāda: Yes... *Dr. Patel: He is jagat*-guru... *Prabhupāda: ...you have to go to Kṛṣṇa not directly: yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. You have to go through the devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) *Prabhupāda: That is ādau śraddhā. If you have got faith in Kṛṣṇa, then next stage is tato sādhu*-saṇgaḥ. And who is sādhu? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. So if you want to see Kṛṣṇa, you have to see first of all His devotee. Māṁ bhaktyā pūjā bhudhikaḥ. This is also.... "If you worship My devotee, that is better worship than worshiping Me directly." Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. He doesn't say by Kṛṣṇa-kṛpā, he says guru-krpā, first. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. Dr. Patel: Gurur brahma, gurur viṣṇuḥ, they say that. Śravanānanda: Some life members (indistinct).... completely ridiculous. They were worshiping everything as God, so in every temple they go in they would pay their obeisances, and if there is some tree, they will pay their obeisances, if there is some stone or brick, and is covered with kuṁkuma and turmeric, they would also pay their obeisances. Prabhupāda: So, what is the question? Dr. Patel: Your answer is all right. Gurur brahma gurur viṣṇuḥ. So I mean that is the philosophy of... Prabhupāda: *In every śāstra you'll find, just like you say, gurur brahma gurur viṣṇuḥ. In other words, sākṣād*-haritvena, directly Hari. *Dr. Patel: Sākṣād*-hari. *Prabhupāda: Sākṣād*-haritvena samasta-śāstrair. Not that in a particular.... In all the śāstra. And sākṣād-haritvena samasta-śāstrair yukta, "It is said," tathā, bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ, "and this is accepted by all authorities." Dr. Patel: Sadbhiḥ. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sadbhiḥ. Not asadbhiḥ. Asadhbhī says "No, no. I don't require a guru. You make me guru." If I don't require a guru, then why you rascal you are speaking this? You are teaching, why you are teaching me? Devotee: Last night's question on that... Prabhupāda: Yes. If you don't require a guru, then why you are teaching me, if you don't require a guru? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (to passerby) These people, they say like that. You don't require guru. You don't require a book to study; everything you'll get, within. Dr. Patel: That is one of the... Prabhupāda: Why you are writing book? Everything is within. All right, but why you are writing book to convince? And why you are teaching them there is no need of guru? That means you want to be guru. All other gurus useless. Just see! Dr. Patel: They, they'll say that their mind is a part of the samasti mind, and you ... Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, I require your help to understand it. Therefore you become my guru. If I require your help to understand something, that is guru. And you say there is no need of guru. Then why you are taking trouble, to teach me this nonsense? Dr. Patel: If.. guru is necessity right from the birth, the first guru is the mother... Prabhupāda: And these rascals they preach like that: there is no need of guru. Dr. Patel: I think they are wrong. Prabhupāda: Therefore rascals simply. Dr. Patel: They are rascals, sir. Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply rascals. Rascals means he does not know the thing, and he still preaches. Therefore rascal. Dr. Patel: That is how that Bhagavān has made so many gurus... Prabhupāda: A guru.... Guru must be there. There are many they say like that-"There is no need of guru." *Indian man: But do you have to make an effort to get a, to achieve a sad*-guru? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. Praṇipāta means you have to surrender there. So you are not a fool. When you submit somewhere, you must test, and then submit. That is sad*-guru. *Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that if you are very sincere, then the sad*-guru comes automatically to you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: As you have come to us. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because Kṛṣṇa is there, if He sees somebody is actually serious to understand Him*-just like Dhruva Mahārāja. Dhruva Mahārāja, did not..., he did not make any guru, but with fervent desire he went, "Yes, I shall find out Kṛṣṇa." Mother said "Kṛṣṇa can be found in the forest," so he went to the forest, and he began according to his own way. Then Kṛṣṇa sent Nārada Muni, that "This boy is very serious. Go and give him real mantra." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Two things required: guru and Kṛṣṇa. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. Mālī hañā kare sei bīja koro āropana. "I have got some seed of bhakti, and I keep it in the iron chest." No. You must make cultivation of bhakti-bīja: mali hañā sei bia koro āropana. And how to nourish the bīja? Śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye śecana: [Cc. Madhya 19.152] by śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. Water is this. Then bhakti-latā will come out a tree, and you will get the fruits and enjoy. Dr. Patel: Smaraṇam kīrtanam.... pada pūjānam. Yes. Prabhupāda: Kīrtanam, arcanam, vandanam, dāsyam... *Dr. Patel: Kīrtanam, vandanam, dāsyam.... ātmā*-nivedanam. (kīrtana as Prabhupāda approaches temple) (end) Morning Walk -- December 23, 1975, Bombay Prabhupāda: ....when he has gone to send (indistinct) that you have offered some room here? Saurabha: No, well there was, on the floor space there is facility for a doctor, so he saw that on the plan, so he proposed that "Well, I'm a dentist, so I can give the devotees free service." Prabhupāda: No, there will be no medical service in the building. (Hindi to some men) These quarters there is no such building, huh? Our, this pattern? Saurabha: No. Not in Bombay, nowhere in Bombay. Prabhupāda: (chuckling) That's very good. Harikeśa: There will be after this, though. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: After this there will be... Devotee: Imitation. (Prabhupāda laughs) Lokanātha: There should not be any medical service in the building, new building, so what about there should be any other place on the land, or they should not...? *Prabhupāda: That we shall do conveniently. It is not very urgent. When there is spare room*-then. Medical service is to cure the material disease, not this temporary headache and stomachache. There are so many medical services for these things, but where is the medical service for curing bhava-roga, material disease? That is wanted. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Medical service does not give any guarantee that there will be no more disease. Our service is guarantee, there will be no more birth, death, old age and disease. That is the difference. (pause) Mauritius, I was suffering so much from dental pain, I never went to the dentist; I invented my medicine, and it cured. (laughter) Harikeśa: Now everyone else is using it here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: I taught them all, and they're all using it now. Or they will all be using it. Prabhupāda: They like it? Harikeśa: Oh, yes. The best. Prabhupāda: Huh? The only defect is that all the ingredients are not very finely powdered. If it is very finely powdered, then it will be very nice. Lokanātha: You are perfect in all respects. You are your own doctor... Prabhupāda: I am not doctor, but I created many doctors. [break] (to Dr. Patel:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jaya. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: (Hindi: ap lok hamye sa chaye) I have decided not to come today with you. Because I was driven away yesterday morning by your men. I came to look after you. Prabhupāda: How is that? Dr. Patel: God only knows. They have behaved so very badly, be three of us. And you were not sleeping even, because I wanted to give you the prescription, so I ran from my house. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: No, I was not... Dr. Patel: No, you were not. Hariśauri: No, I was there. You had just taken rest in the bedroom, so I thought it best not to disturb you. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, I was taking rest. Dr. Patel: I wrote out the prescription and gave it. Prabhupāda: Yes, I got that. Huh. Lokanātha: So you can come? Prabhupāda: So I was resting. Dr. Patel: No, I won't come. I want only humble obeisances today. Thank you very much. (leaves) Prabhupāda: So he wanted to see me? Hariśauri: He brought two of his friends in as well. I thought he was going to create such a commotion, and you had just taken rest, so I said better to let you rest and not disturb you. Prabhupāda: (to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa! (japa) *Lokanatha: All over the world, the Ratha*-yātrā attracts thousands of people, but in Bombay we'll not have Jagannātha Deities, so how could we have Ratha-yātrā and attract people? (indistinct) give some correction. Prabhupāda: ...our temple then.... [break] Girirāja: A question was raised about Lord Rāma worshiping Śiva. Prabhupāda: Hm? Girirāja: At one of the programs, somebody raised the question that we cited that Lord Śiva is worshiping Kṛṣṇa, that he is a Vaiṣṇava. So that person replied that Lord Rāma also worshiped Śiva. So he wanted to know the explanation. Lokanātha: You explained yesterday. Prabhupāda: Sometimes Kṛṣṇa is chastised by mother Yaśodā. So how is that? The Supreme Personality of Godhead is being chastised by mother Yaśodā? Girirāja: He likes to be chastised. It's part of the relationship. Prabhupāda: Similarly, He likes to worship His devotee. Sometimes the father takes the child on his shoulder. Does it mean the child is more important than the father? They say the Vālmīki *Rāmāyaṇa*, there is no such incidence as Rāmacandra worships Śiva. It is later on, interpretation. But even if He does so, what is the wrong here? *Harikeśa: That later*-on Rāmāyaṇa has caused some havoc. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Harikeśa: That later*-on interpretation? Prabhupāda: Yes, the Śaivaites, they want to make Lord Śiva the exalted Supreme Person. In South India there is good propaganda. That is always going on. *Lokanātha: When Lord Śiva says in Purāṇas that mukti*-pradapaḥ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇu... (sic) Prabhupāda: Hm? Lokanātha: Purāṇa, the same Lord Śiva says there is no other liberated besides Viṣṇu. Devotee: ...engagement, one devotee commented that the reason that Lord Rāma worshiped Lord Śiva was because He wanted to kill Rāvaṇa and Rāvaṇa was a devotee of Śiva, so Lord Rāma worshiped Śiva in that respect. Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that? Harikeśa: He said that because Lord Śiva was, ah, excuse me, Rāvaṇa was a devotee of Lord Śiva, that in order that Lord Rāmacandra could kill Rāvaṇa, He worshiped Śiva. Kīrtanānanda: He wanted to take permission of him, so they say. Rāma wanted to take permission from Śiva... Prabhupāda: So Śiva is so rascal that he gave permission? That means they are trying to prove Śiva is a rascal. (devotees laugh) Because he gave permission to kill his devotee. Then what is the use of his, of one becoming Śiva's devotee? If such a rascal that one can take his permission to kill his devotee, so what is the use of becoming a devotee of such a rascal? Huh? Harikeśa: He protected Bāṇāsura. Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? That means that proving that Śiva is a rascal. He gave permission to kill his devotee. Then what is the use? Then nobody should become Śiva's devotee. That is the conclusion. Because he gives permission to somebody else to kill his devotee. They are trying to prove Lord Śiva is a rascal. What do you think? Huh? If I want your permission, please give me your permission, I shall kill your son, and if you say, "Yes, I give my permission," then are you not a rascal? By this example they are making Lord Śiva a rascal, that he has no common sense even. Indian man: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, if this proposition is there, that Lord Śiva gives permission for killing his devotee, then who will become his devotee? Huh? Is it not? Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: No sane man will become his devotee. All the manufactured foolish statements, just see. Any commonsense man will immediately say, "Then Śiva is a rascal; he cannot give protection to his devotee." What do you think? Huh? Kīrtanānanda: Of course, Śrīla Prabhupāda, does one have to give protection to their devotee if they break the law? Just like if you have a child, and he murders someone, isn't he supposed to be punished? So if someone goes against the Supreme Personality of Godhead, even if you are a devotee, shouldn't Śiva concur? Prabhupāda: No, no. That is another thing. This proposal, that because Lord Rāmacandra approached Lord Śiva to kill Rāvaṇa, and he gave permission, although Rāvaṇa was his great devotee. Then what is the use of becoming devotee of Lord Śiva? He gives permission. Huh? Is that very reasonable proposal? If I ask your permission that I shall kill your son, will you give permission? No. Then? So Lord Śiva gives permission to Lord Rāmacandra, "Yes, You can kill Rāvaṇa," then what is the use of becoming his devotee? Harikeśa: I think Dr. Patel would say that it's not fair, you have fired the opposition. Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: It's not fair. You have completely destroyed the opposition. (Prabhupāda laughs) There is no question of fight. Prabhupāda: The actual fact is that Lord Śiva did not give permission, but he did not go to protect Rāvaṇa, because he knew that it was impossible to give him protection. That is summarized in Bengali, rākhe kṛṣṇa māre ke, māre kṛṣṇa rākhe ke. If Kṛṣṇa kills somebody, wants to kill somebody, nobody can give him protection. That is the conclusion. And if Kṛṣṇa protects somebody, nobody can kill him. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Huh? He was protected by Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva. Who can kill? Kīrtanānanda: Why did Lord Śiva try to protect Banasura? Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: Didn't Lord Śiva try to protect Banasura? Prabhupāda: Yes. You must try, when your son is in danger, you must try. That is natural. That is not uncommon. You can save or not save, that is a different thing. But it is you duty, if somebody is under your protection, you must try to save him, even at the risk of your life. That is real protector. Lokanātha: Do you have plans, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to comment on *Rāmāyaṇa* in future? Prabhupāda: Hm? First of all finish my *Bhāgavatam*, then we shall talk of other things. Indian man: Lord Brahmā took away the cows and the cowherd boys that Kṛṣṇa was playing with. At that time Kṛṣṇa expanded Himself just to (indistinct) about a year or so that these cows are all Kṛṣṇa expansions, but the gopīs were so much (indistinct) to (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa's (indistinct). Now he started, he doubted that gopīs are (indistinct) with Kṛṣṇa because these cowherds and ah, they are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa only, so he was not... Prabhupāda: Hm. That is called, they were playing the role of human being. (pause) Indian man: ...would be nearing the portion where that (indistinct) is there. I told Girirāja prabhu, when you were sick, that fever is there, you were having fever, so I... Prabhupāda: No, I had no fever. Indian man: When you went to Vṛndāvana? Some... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Indian man: So I was telling my wife, she said that you read that *Bhāgavatam*, where that Bāṇ(āsura) is there, that Śiva means having, producing jvārā, fever, so Viṣṇujvārā is cold only, so that Viṣṇujvārā will bring down the fever. So you were just reading more *Bhāgavatam* only, when you are sick. Anybody who is suffering from fever means you read such and such a portion, so it should come down. Prabhupāda: No, Viṣṇu should not be utilized for curing your fever. (laughter) That is not bhakti. That is business. Indian man: So you are always reaching for bhakti point. That is too high for mundane people to reach. *Prabhupāda: That is bhakti, high, highest. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. If you have real bhakti, then you can understand Vaiṣṇava. To know Viṣṇu*-avan manasā-gocara: it is very difficult. *To understand Viṣṇu*-very, very difficult. And.... If, but you can understand Viṣṇu by bhakti. So bhakti is so easy thing. Kīrtanānanda: How about if a disciple wants to use the help of Viṣṇu for the spiritual master? Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: A disciple wants to take the aid of Viṣṇu for serving the spiritual master. *Prabhupāda: Hah. That is nice. That is for curing Viṣṇu's representative. When we were in danger, there was so much obstruction for constructing the temple, and we prayed to Kṛṣṇa that it should stopped. We prayed to Kṛṣṇa, "Please give your protection." That is for Viṣṇu's purpose. [break] ...Bhagavad*-gītā, arto 'rthārthī jijñāsur: when one is in distress, he comes to Kṛṣṇa. So that is not pure bhakti. Pure bhakti means, "I shall not take a farthing from Kṛṣṇa; *I shall give everything to Kṛṣṇa." That is pure. "I shall not take any return from Kṛṣṇa." Prahlāda Mahārāja says, "I am not a merchant, that for my service I take some return for it." No. But sometimes when, since we are not pure devotees, we have no other alternative than to beg Kṛṣṇa for some material benefit. That is also good. They have said, catur*-vidhā bhajante māṁ, sukṛtinaḥ, that pious. Although they are not pure devotee, but they are pious. But the duṣkṛtinaḥ, they do not approach Him. That is the difference. They are also good, pious. And one who does not go to Viṣṇu for any reason, they are most sinful. Here, although he goes to Viṣṇu for some material benefit, he is pious. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Those who are impious, sinful, they do not go. (comes to a part of beach covered by waves) So I will have to jump like this? Harikeśa: No, we made the wrong turn. Lokanātha: [break] ...window glass. *Prabhupāda: That is called māyā. (everyone laughs) The light is here, but it appears light is there. This is called māyā. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jaya. The real world is the spiritual world, and here it is simply a reflection, but we are taking this is real world, and spiritual, there is no spiritual. Yathā bhāsaḥ tathā tamo. So Śaṅkarācārya said that this world is false, jagan mithya. So, but brahma satyam, he gave the same information. But we are taking this jagat satyam, and there is no spiritual world. This is the defect. Just like.... (aside:) That's all right. ...the mirage, the foolish animal goes after the water in the desert, but there is no water. He is bewildered. But that does not means there is no water anywhere else. There is water, but this mirage water is false. Similarly, this material world is false, but that does not mean there is no spiritual world. The water is somewhere else. That you do not know. But you are after this mirage, water in the desert. (Hindi conversation with man, about water) (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Yatra tri*-sargo'mṛṣā. Tejo vāri-mṛdāṁ vinimayo yatra tri-sargo'mṛṣā dhāmnā svena sadā nirasta-kuhakaṁ satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi [SB 1.1.1]. Vyāsadeva offers his respect to the real truth, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi, where there is no mirage, there is no false world; real world. And Kṛṣṇa gives the same information: yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. "That is My real abode, where if you go you don't come back. And so long you are in this material world, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19], you accept one body, suffer or enjoy, there is no enjoyment, suffering, and again accept another body; tathā dehāntara praptir." This is going on. Therefore they do not understand when you speak of the other world. But if you speak of this world, that "I'll make you happy in this world," thousands and millions will follow you. And as soon as you say that "I shall make you happy in the next world," "These are all nonsense, crazy fellow!" Devotee: They think it's too imaginary. *Harikeśa: Post*-dated check! *Prabhupāda: And.. Not post*-dated! That is real check, but he does not know. He refuses real check. That is not post-dated; it is real check. Harikeśa: Well, they might say that we're always... Prabhupāda: They might say, that is another thing. (Hindi conversation with man about blind leading the blind) Lokanātha: [break] ...body is finished, everything is finished. Prabhupāda: Hm? Lokanātha: When body is finished, everything is finished, so why... Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. You were a child; that body is finished. So you have got a different body. But this simple truth they do not understand; *that is their folly. If the body is finished, then why you were a child, you have become a young man? Body is finished, but not everything is finished, everything is there. Only the body is finished. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. This is explained. So when the body is finished, that does not mean that you are finished. You have to accept another body. That is real truth, and it is spoken by Kṛṣṇa, not any so*-called scientist. The Supreme Person says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. What do they say about this statement of Kṛṣṇa, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre, that when your body is finished you are not finished? Lokanātha: Well they won't accept Kṛṣṇa either. Prabhupāda: Then, how rascal they are! Indian man: (indistinct) you know there is soul. Prabhupāda: Ha. Indian man: Body is finished and ātmā is emerged. So, what, why the ātmā suffers next generation for the deeds done by the body in this life? Prabhupāda: Because ātmā is continuation. Indian man: Continuation, I understand. Suppose my body does something... Prabhupāda: Not body is doing, you are doing... Indian man: I am doing, that means... Prabhupāda: Therefore you must suffer. Indian man: ...my ātmā is not doing. Atma is... Prabhupāda: Ātmā is doing; therefore ātmā is suffering. You are not doing. When the ātmā is born out of your body, body does not do anything. Then... Indian man: Ātmā... Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Ātmā is amara. So it is eternal, it has no death, no life, no.... It has got a birth, it has got a death that only are superfluous, say only for consolation. But actually it does not die. Body dies, or body destroyed, and that is (indistinct) or suffering. But, when I do something good or bad in this life, see, I am doing. Prabhupāda: You are doing, and therefore you must suffer. Indian man: But that is not ātmā. Why ātmā is... Prabhupāda: ...do not know. Indian man: (indistinct) ...even (indistinct) ātmā. Girirāja: You are the ātmā. Indian man: Not ātmā. Prabhupāda: You do not understand that you are ātmā. Aham brahmasmi. That you do not understand. You think "I am body." That is nonsense. Indian man: That point is not clear. Prabhupāda: Why not clear? That means your intelligence is not clear. Indian man: (spluttering) ...naturally, but listen what I say. *Prabhupāda: So, the ātmā, that is stated in the Bhāgavata, antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ [Bg. 2.18]. Nityasyoktāḥ, nityasyoktāḥ, śarīriṇaḥ. Śarīriṇaḥ means the soul who possesses this body, he is nitya. So, you have to enjoy or suffer the reaction of your activities. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. You have got a type of body on account of your activities. Indian man: But how ātmā... Suppose I am doing some sins? So how ātmā can be controlling. Suffering... Prabhupāda: You are doing sin, you have to control. *Kīrtanānanda: What does the Lord mean in Bhagavad*-gītā when He says that only the modes of material nature act... Prabhupāda: You are committing sinful life, so you have to rectify yourself. Indian man: He is the controller of my body, ātmā is the controller of my... Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: So if I am doing sins, you mean to say, that ātmā is doing because that is his responsibility. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: If manager does..., if the worker does something wrong, the manager is indirectly responsible. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Why do you say manager? You are doing... Indian man: Yes, but suppose... Prabhupāda: No "I suppose." That is not suppose. You are doing sinful activities or pious activities. It is you, ātmā, jīvātmā. Indian man: So that means jīvātmā, he is... Prabhupāda: Responsible... Indian man: ...responsible for any good or bad deeds for my life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Because he's controller of the body. So he's responsible. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bodies only means, suppose you are motorcar, you are driving this way or that way, the motorcar is not driving you. You are driving the motorcar. Indian man: Huh huh. Kīrtanānanda: What does it mean in the *Gītā*, Prabhupāda, when Kṛṣṇa says only the modes of material nature are acting? Prabhupāda: Material nature means because you are in diseased condition in this material world, therefore according to the infection. Just like you have got body, and he has got body. You are suffering from typhoid; *he is suffering from smallpox. So you have contaminated the typhoid germs, and he has contaminated smallpox. So the, this body is after all material body, so there is infection of material nature, tri*-guṇātmaka. Therefore you have to transcend this position of tri-guṇātmaka. Then you are cured. If you transcend the infection of the three modes of material nature, then you are safe. So long you do not transcend, just like so long we infect some disease, then you must suffer. But if you don't infect, you'll not suffer. That is up to you. There is disease, cholera disease; why shall I go there? Why shall I infect my body in that way? That is up to you. If you don't take precaution, then you will suffer. Jaya. Śrīdhara: The soul is pure, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Yes, but he is covered by the material body. The material body is infected by the modes of material nature. Therefore, although he is pure, he is subjected. Just like when there is motor accident, you are separate from the motor, but you have to suffer. Everyone knows that I am separate from the motorcar, but why I am suffering? Because you have got bad car, you must suffer. Śrīdhara: That may be because I'm an imperfect driver. Prabhupāda: So you are imperfect; therefore this movement is to make you perfect. If you are not imperfect, then why the movement is there? To make you perfect. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramaṁ gataḥ. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. So long you are imperfect, you must suffer in this material world. And as soon as you become perfect, you go back to home, back to.... Because you are imperfect, therefore this movement is necessary. Medicine is there for the patient, not for the person in perfect health. Mūdho' yaṁ nābhijānāti mām eva param avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. These rascals they do not know Kṛṣṇa; therefore the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is necessary. Para upakāra. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says para upa, para upakāra. You know yourself what is Kṛṣṇa, and distribute this knowledge. That is wanted. That is entrusted to the Indians. This is wanted. Śrīdhara: So the soul is the doer and the nondoer of the activities, sinful activities, or, as the soul is pure, so... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when you are condemned to death by the judgment of the high*-court, so who is the doer, the high-court judge, or you? Huh? Is the high-court judge your enemy, that he has condemned you to death? He has given the judgment; *you cannot say he is the doer. You are the doer. So ātmā and Paramātmā. You do, and Paramātmā gives judgment. Daiva*-netreṇa. By the superior judgment. Lokanātha: But it is said all the actions are carried out by the three modes of material nature, and... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Lokanātha: ...the ātmā is just the non*-doer. Ātmā doesn't do anything. Prabhupāda: No, no. He has put himself to the shelter of material nature. As soon as you come to India or you come to some other country, you must be under the laws of that country. So why do you come here? Kṛṣṇa bhuliyā jīva bhagavān sa kari. You have come to the material world to enjoy, so you must suffer also. Kīrtanānanda: We've seen the example used, Prabhupāda, that just like a man, if he goes to sleep at night and he dreams that he has committed some murder or some... Prabhupāda: So why does he dream? Kīrtanānanda: ...he enjoys or suffers the activities, but actually he is... Prabhupāda: Yes, but why he dreams like that? One is dreaming like that, another is dreaming a different way. That is due to his practice. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Śrīdhara: People say then that the soul must be impure. If the soul can, not... *Prabhupāda: Impure in this sense: that he has come in touch with the impure. And if he becomes untouched with the impure, then he is no more impure. That is described in Bhagavad*-gītā, Immediately he becomes pure. Kṛṣṇa says, "I shall make you immediately pure." Why don't you do that? You want to remain impure, so you must suffer. Kīrtanānanda: Therefore everything is situated on desire. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. We are desiring to enjoy the sense enjoyment of this material world, then you remain impure. So long you shall desire sense enjoy.... Therefore bhakti means anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11], make zero all your desires, material desires. Desire cannot be zero. Purīfy your desires. Desire how to serve Kṛṣṇa. Then it is pure. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You singing daily in the morning, āra nā koriho mane āśā. Do you know the meaning? Devotee: "No other desires." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Āra nā.... guru mukha padma vakhya cittete koriya aikyā āra nā korioa mane āśā. That is purification. A guru says something, and you do something else, then you are desiring something, then you are not pure. Therefore daily you are saying, āra nā koriho mane āśā. Don't desire anything. Then you remain pure. As soon as you decide that "I shall serve only Kṛṣṇa," you become pure, immediately. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayīṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. You are delivered from all sinful reactions, then how you are impure? You keep that position, pure position, then your life is successful. Āra nā koriho... And if you plan something (chuckles) "I am very expert in planning; I shall do this, I shall do that, not serve Kṛṣṇa," then you remain impure. Indian man (2): Prabhupāda, (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: [break] ...ananya*-bhāk, that is required. Āra-nā koriho mane.. ananya-bhāk, no diversion of attention. Indian man (3): [break] ...you see, I am now trying to learn (indistinct) something, and I find that by doing bhakti, ah, what you call pūjā, saguṇa pūjā, whenever I come to your place, instead of seeing the Kṛṣṇa mūrti, I always see the liṅgam, pure liṅgam. Why this phenomena going on? Prabhupāda: You are a great devotee of Lord Śiva, so that's all right. Indian man (3): I have already, seeing the.... My parents may be doing, I have not done much except knowing only a few lines of the... Prabhupāda: That's all right. You remain a devotee of Lord Śiva. There is no harm. Indian man (3): And when I have been doing some other saguṇa pūjā, another is seen always. Prabhupāda: Hm? Indian man (3): Suppose I am doing... Prabhupāda: Many, many... Indian man (3): ...Śaṇkara pure pūjā then I am seeing er, Devi.... Like that it is happening. Secondly, so how to go to nirguṇa state? That is my difficulty. Prabhupāda: Sa guṇān sama... Indian man (3): And whenever I am praying with closed eyes, I see something, but with opened eyes I don't see anything. *Prabhupāda: That is given in the Bhagavad*-gītā. That you have to.... Sa guṇān samatītyaitān [Bg. 14.26]. Sa guṇan. Samatītya. So you have to adopt this means, then you will. Indian man (3): How to from sa guṇa I do not know. *Prabhupāda: Māṁ ca yo' vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena ya sevate [Bg. 14.26]. Indian man (3): Sanskrit, I don't know much Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Anyone who worships Kṛṣṇa, avyabhicāreṇa, without any change, he becomes nirguṇa. Indian man (3): So saguṇa is necessary for going to nirguṇa? Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian man (3): Saguṇa is... Prabhupāda: No, not necessary. But if you don't worship unflinchingly Kṛṣṇa, then you remain in the saguṇa platform. Indian man (3): Hm, I see. *Prabhupāda: Here it is clearly said, sa gunān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. So you have to adopt the means; then you become nirguṇa. And if you don't adopt, then you remain saguṇa. Indian man (3): Yes, and I can come to you and just, you explain me what is the way... Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān [Bg. 14.26]. Saguṇ.. saguṇa... *Indian man (3): Which śloka from Gītā, it is from Gītā? Bhagavad*-gītā? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is ninth chapter. Indian man (3): Then I'll read it again and see if whether I can follow something. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa clearly says, sa guṇān, sa guṇān samatītya, sama upena titya, perfectly transcending, this is the process. Indian man (3): I see. We cannot do with the closed eyes. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Indian man (3): With open eyes, why we cannot do the prayers and the bhakti*-yoga? What is the... *Prabhupāda: For the disturbed mind. Those who are settled up, they can see always, open or closed. Premāñjanacchurita*-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu viloka. One who has attained that stage, love of God, he can see every, every moment. When you love somebody, a small child, don't you see always, huh? Don't you see? Huh? When you see the child's little sock, immediately you see the child. The shoes, immediately you see the child. Why? Because you are in love with the child. So that stage you have to come, in love with God, then you will see always, twenty-four hours, sadaiva. Sadaiva means twenty-four hours. You see, and you always remain in nirguṇa stage, and always see. Indian man (3): But in that case, sir, material duties, they are forgotten. Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (3): Then how can you avoid that, because conflict takes place. Prabhupāda: No, it will be, there will be no more material duty. When you wash the shoes of your son, that is love, that is not a shoe washer; you don't remain a shoe washer. You remain in love with your child. Hm? A mother takes care of the child, washes, when he passes stool, that does not mean she becomes maṭharāṇī (sweeper woman). Maṭharāṇī is material. But when the mother out of love washes the child, she is not maṭharāṇī, she is Rādhārāṇī. (everyone laughs) And if you conclude, "Ah, she is washing the stool of the son. She is maṭharānī," that is your mistake. She remains Rādhārāṇī. Just like mother Yaśodā is binding Kṛṣṇa, that does not mean that His supremacy is lost. The mother Yaśodā is binding; *He still remains the supreme. Therefore mother Yaśodā became exhausted to try to bind Him. (laughs) And when Kṛṣṇa saw that "My mother is perspiring now, she is exhausted," "All right, let Me agree to be bound up by her." (pause) That's not a fact, otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, "Anyone who is engaged in My devotional service, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]." So this is a mistake to say that devotional service is saguṇa. (indistinct) Huh? These are one gentleman came to talk with me? Saurabha: About the apartment? Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Morning Walk -- December 24, 1975, Bombay Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) The experiment with truth (Hindi). What is the experiment with truth? (Hindi) Dr. Patel: You have taken that tablet for passing more urine? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Daily or..., yes or no. Prabhupāda: I am passing (laughing). Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, but you have got the edema on the leg, and I mean, when... Prabhupāda: It is cured. That one tablet, two tablets, has cured. So explain what is the experiment with truth. Dr. Patel: Now we must make. I have booked a visit at 7:15. Prabhupāda: Hm? Dr. Patel: At 7:15 I have booked a visit. Prabhupāda: So... Dr. Patel: Ha, tell me what is your... Prabhupāda: No, what is this experiment with truth? Dr. Patel: About what? Prabhupāda: Anything. The world. Dr. Patel: There are two types of experiments, sir, according to me. I may be wrong and I am open to correction. One experimentation with the crude world; another experiment with your own mind. Which type of experiment we want? Prabhupāda: No, mind we reject immediately. Dr. Patel: How? Prabhupāda: Because it is not truth. It is accepting, it is rejecting. Dr. Patel: Man sai eva (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Mind's business is to accept and reject. Therefore it is not truth. Dr. Patel: Only by mind and concentration of the mind you get the truth. Prabhupāda: Concentration is different. Dr. Patel: But that is also of what? Of the mind. Prabhupāda: The mind, when you concentrate the mind to the truth, then it is all right. Dr. Patel: That is what I say. By concentration of the mind you get the truth. That is the right. Prabhupāda: Mind is not truth. Dr. Patel: Mind is not truth, but by mind we get at the truth. Prabhupāda: Yes. We can direct our mind towards truth. Dr. Patel: I did not mean mind is truth. All that is made up of māyā, all that is made up of, I mean, mahatsab(?) and down below, are all falsehood. Prabhupāda: Therefore, experiment with truth is not experiment with the mind. So what is that truth, or what is that experiment? Dr. Patel: What is.... First of all, let us know what is mind by experiment. Prabhupāda: Experiment means to examine whether it is truth or not. Dr. Patel: That examines, who examines and what? Who examines the mind, man's mind? After all, no? And examination of anything depends upon the state of the mind, sir, according to the psychology. More concentrated the mind, better it will be nearer the truth. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right... Dr. Patel: That is what I say. Prabhupāda: ...but, my point is... Dr. Patel: See, experiment depends upon all that. Prabhupāda: ...if there is truth, where is the scope of experiment? Dr. Patel: I mean, that you want to, you want to pick up that point, then you are absolutely right, there is no experiment. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is contradiction. If you say "truth," there is no question of experiment. That I..., try to understand. It is contradiction. *Dr. Patel: By all these jñāni*-yogīs, I mean you are a bhakti-yogī, but I talk of jñāna-yogīs. *Prabhupāda: Jñāna*-yoga is also truth if you follow. Just like jñānāvasthitā tad gatena manasā. So that is truth. But when there is question of experiment, that is not truth. That is my point. Dr. Patel: Then they are making experiment in an area which is not already known. Prabhupāda: Yes, that means that that is not truth. So experiment with truth cannot be; this is contradiction. Dr. Patel: No, you are right that way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: But your how..., ask a question puzzling with me. So I... Prabhupāda: No, I ask you, that how this experiment with truth can be? Dr. Patel: The experiment with sciences, we are making experiment with biological sciences and abstract, I mean sciences of physics and chemistry, and that those who are truths already, we are trying to honor. We cannot make truths. Truths are there already settled by God. God, we try to find out what is exactly, and how it is being done. But we are not trying to find out who is doing. That is your point. I understand. Prabhupāda: No. If the truth is there, there is no question of experiment. Dr. Patel: We are experimenting to find out the truth. Truth is there. My house is there, sir, but you may go this way or that way, that way. We are making experiment to go to my house. Prabhupāda: So that means you do not know what is the truth. Dr. Patel: Truth is there, but we do not know the truth. That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. Dr. Patel: We are making experiment to..., experiment by this way will lead up to the truth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Experiment means repeat, with regard to the matter of finding out the truth. Not with the truth itself. Prabhupāda: Yes. But the word means, "experiment with truth," that is contradiction. There cannot be any experiment with truth. Truth is truth. Dr. Patel: Truth cannot be experimented upon. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... Dr. Patel: That I quite agree with you, and I become (indistinct). But so far as the method of finding out truth, that I experiment with. Prabhupāda: That can be there, that is another thing. Dr. Patel: All our physical sciences... Prabhupāda: Another thing... Dr. Patel: I mean, ah, I mean, ah... Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! ( to passerby) (Hindi ) Are you all right? Dr. Patel: All these sciences, mathematics, chemistry, physics, they have really been advanced by experimentation only. Because we did not know what the truth is behind all these natural phenomena, and we tried to find out the real, how the natural phenomena are, I mean, happening, and that is what the experimentation of the human race was searching out the truth... *Prabhupāda: That is explained in Bhagavad*-gītā, tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. Tattva-jñānārtha-darśana. *Dr. Patel: But these truths, sir, are approached, I mean actually realized, by various ways. The, I mean the jñāna*-yogīs or yogis, what you call, they realize it, I mean, because the jñānis, they become, by concentration of their mind on the truth, they, that which is highest truth or God. They are after all trying... *Prabhupāda: The yogis, they have already found the truth. Jñānāvasthitā tad*-gatenā manasa pasyanti yaṁ yoginam. So they have already found out the truth, and they are concentrating. That is not experiment. They have already know. Dr. Patel: But, I don't say they have experimented on the truth, sir. I think I am not making myself more clear to you. What I meant to say is they have experimented by concentration of the mind to find out the truth, and they realize the truth that way. *Prabhupāda: No. Realize, that's a fact. Now they are acting, by.... Tad*-gatena manasā, mind is fixed up in Supersoul, Paramātmā. That is yoga. Dr. Patel: Yes. You mean to say, hm, that... Prabhupāda: They have already, nobody (indistinct) truth. *Dr. Patel: Yes. Brahma*-vid brahma eva bhavati, he is just like.... All the knowledge of God is imbibed within. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is concentrated. Just like our bhakti. Bhakti means we know, "Here is God: kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]." So there is no question of experimenting. Now we are known, we are concentrating how to satisfy. There is no question of experimentation. Dr. Patel: But the physical scientists' method, chemistry, biology, is, I mean, this physics, they have to experiment in their.... They are nothing but the finding out the truth behind the phenomena, the material phenomena. That is what I mean. *Prabhupāda: Phenomena is changeable, always changing. Just like this samudra*-sometimes here, sometimes there. Dr. Patel: Yes, right, sir. But why the samudra changes? We go into there, into deep depth of that... *Prabhupāda: That is truth. That is truth. By the yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta*-kāla-cakro, that is truth. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. That is truth. The phenomena, that is changing. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. Dr. Patel: Are you going tomorrow? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Tomorrow at what time? Prabhupāda: I do not know. What time? Saurabha: What time, Harikeśa? Harikeśa: Actually, nobody knows. *Dr. Patel: Tomorrow is Christmas day. You are going on twenty*-seventh. *Prabhupāda: No, twenty*-fifth. Kīrtanānanda: Somebody said you were going at noon. Harikesa: I don't think anyone knows yet. Kīrtanānanda: Why is that? Harikesa: Haven't bought the tickets yet. Kīrtanānanda: No reservations yet? Prabhupāda: All right just to understand? If truth is there, there is no question of experiment. And if experiment is there, that is not truth. Kīrtanānanda: Perfectly logical. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: That is correct. Prabhupāda: It is contradiction. Lokanātha: Their experiments are only speculation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: One wants to experiment, it means they don't know what is truth. Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as there is experiment, there is no truth. And if there is truth, there is no experiment. Kīrtanānanda: One simply accepts the truth. Prabhupāda: Truth, we accept or not accept: truth is truth. Hm? There is a father. That is a truth. You may not know who is your father, that is another thing. But this is a fact, there is father. Lokanātha: You have said many times that when mother says "This is your father," you have to accept. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is truth. Lokanātha: We cannot go for experimenting other possibilities. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no question of experimenting whether he is my father. You take the truth from the mother, and that's final. [break] ...being more and more convinced, why Kṛṣṇa says na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhā prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]? Huh? Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is within these groups, duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ. That is being more and more confirmed. Kīrtanānanda: They may appear like moral men or learned men, but still they are... Prabhupāda: Not... Kīrtanānanda: ...rascal. *Prabhupāda: Rascal, yes. Therefore it begins in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi [SB 1.1.1]. The beginning is truth. Satyam paraṁ dhīmahi. There is no question of experiment. It is not this book, Bhāgavata, is an experiment to find out. It is beginning from the truth. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. *Lokanātha: What is sādhana*-bhakti? *Prabhupāda: Sādhana*-bhakti is practice. Truth is there, but how to be intimately connected with truth, that is sādhana. Lokanātha: So sometimes we say to karmīs that "Why don't you make an experiment, just try to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, make an experiment, and you will realize it." Prabhupāda: Because he does not know; therefore we suggest experiment. He does not know. Lokanātha: So we ask him to perform the... Prabhupāda: Ah, that means, my proposition is that one who does not know, for him experiment. One who knows, there is no experiment. Lokanātha: But there is... Prabhupāda: You are asking, requesting to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, but this is not experiment for me, it is experiment for him. He does not know; therefore you are suggesting, "You do like this, and you will understand." *Jagat*-puruṣa: They are conditioned to make experiments. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Jagat*-puruṣa: So they can dovetail that conditioning. Prabhupāda: There is no question of experimenting, but he does not know, he is given chance, "All right, try like this." But truth is there. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (to passerby) Oh, the water has gone this way. (Hindi conversation about the tide) Śrīdhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, people can understand that the truth is already there, but they can't understand how by meditating on one particular person or thing, all other truths automatically become realized. They want to experiment to find out what is the unlimited truth. Prabhupāda: Let them experiment. Because he does not know the truth perfectly well. Śrīdhara: So just by meditating on the person Kṛṣṇa, all other truths become known? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: Prabhupāda doesn't say that no one can... *Prabhupāda: There are some animals, they do not actually touch the egg*-birds. Or the, I think, what is called, tortoise. They simply concentrate, and the egg comes into being. Lokanātha: If you hear the truth, there is no need to make an experiment at all. Isn't it? Prabhupāda: Hm. That is perfect experiment. Lokanātha: That is, that happens with full śraddhā. When there is unflinching faith, he will not go for making the experiment. Kīrtanānanda: [break] ...come and dance at āratik? Prabhupāda: Hm? Kīrtanānanda: If they want to swing their arms, why not come to ārati and dance? (talking about people exercising on beach) In 1966, Prabhupāda, we went up to Dr. Mishra's āśrama upstate. And there was some yogi from the New York Institute there, and he said that automatically, just see these devotees, automatically they are doing everything that we are teaching, just by this one process of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is the statement by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Viha hoite sarva siddhe hoi betaman. By practicing this chanting, you'll get all perfection. Kīrtanānanda: One morning we were out walking in a sunrise, and Hayagrīva pointed out, "Oh, there's a very beautiful sunrise," and you said, "The sunrise is not very wonderful, but He who has made it is wonderful." Prabhupāda: The point is, they glorify the scientists, another scientist, but they are so fool they do not glorify who has made that brain. You cannot make that brain. Indian man: [break] ...I told him it might be that (indistinct) they have not done all these things, go to Kṛṣṇa temple, coming back, nine thirty, ten o'clock. Then take all this train... Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's favor. Yes. Kṛṣṇa is favoring to finish this job. Indian man: Now we know that janma is.... I told him they may not be having many other janma, that may be why they are suffering like this now. Prabhupāda: No. There is no suffering. Their material existence is being reduced on account of serving Kṛṣṇa. Indian man: One lady is there in Bombay, whole family, old lady, young children die. *Prabhupāda: Yasyāham anugṛhṇāmi hariṣye tad*-dhanaṁ śanaiḥ [SB 10.88.8]. This is special favour of Kṛṣṇa because they, by this pious activity, they wanted this material enjoyment, which you are complaining, that they are reducing material enjoyment. But that is Kṛṣṇa's favor. He doesn't want reduction of material enjoyment; at the same time, they want to worship Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is seeing that these fools, they want Me, and at the same time material enjoyment. So "Finish their material enjoyment; they will simply think of Me." So long one will be too much absorbed in this material enjoyment, he cannot be perfectly devotee. Therefore sometimes Kṛṣṇa, when He sees "Someone is serious to get Me," and at the same time he wants material enjoyment, so indirectly or directly He finishes that material enjoyment. That is a special favor. Kīrtanānanda: (referring to passerby) The dogs are taking the lady for a walk. Lokanātha: The man's body is made up of kapha, piṭha, vāyu, and woman's body also has the same ingredients. Prabhupāda: Everybody. Lokanātha: So then what is basic difference between human body, I mean man's body and woman's body, which attracts each other? Prabhupāda: Because if you want to be attracted, God has made in such a way that both of them are attractive to one another. That's all. You want to be attracted; therefore woman is made attractive. And the woman wants to be attracted; *man is attractive. This is nature's arrangement so that you may be bound up by this attraction. Tayor miṭha hṛdaya*-granthiḥ mām. You are already bound up, and by this attraction you will be more tightly bound up. Puṁsāṁ striyā mithuni-bhāvam etad. The whole material attraction means a man's attraction for woman and a woman's attraction for man. But when they are seeking, "Where is woman, where is woman, where is woman," and the woman is seeking, they come here to make this business. Huh? And when they are actually attracted or united, then this bondage, material bondage, will become more tight. Therefore the Vedic civilization is how to slacken it, and ultimately, by force, separation, sannyāsa. Because unless they are separated, there cannot be any spiritual advancement. That is the whole process. The unity is bondage. I have written a letter that man is good, woman is good, and when they are united, they are bad! (laughs) Both of them are bad. And the material world is taking, "This is the best thing." But actually that is not the thing. Man is good, because he is part and parcel of God, and woman is good, part and parcel of God, but when they unite, they become bad. Tayor miṭhādi hrdayanti-maho. Lokanātha: For detachment you suggest they remain separate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless they are separated, it is very difficult to advance in spiritual consciousness. That is the whole Vedic system. Gradual. First of all, brahmacārī, he is educated very nicely that this is not good to marry and enter into a family life. And in spite of education, if he is still inclined, then he is allowed to marry. This is a concession. And that is for a few days, few years. Then compulsory separation from the family life. Vanaprāstha. At that time, wife is allowed to stay with the husband, but finally they are separated, sannyāsa. Wife should go home, remain with their children. That's all. Lokanātha: So when they are gṛhastha, they make advancement? Prabhupāda: Hm? That advancement is not very solid. But there is advancement; but that is not very solid. Śrīdhara: Without sex pleasure a man and a woman would not be attracted to one another. Prabhupāda: Yes. Attraction means that sex. There is no other. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedī sukhaṁ hi tuccham. Why they are working so hard day and night? Only for that sex pleasure. That is the psychology. There is no other happiness. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhī sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. Their happiness is based on the center of sex pleasure. Śrīdhara: So the body of a woman only reminds of the sex pleasure. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Body of man or woman. The same thing. This is the only pleasure. In this material world, so*-called pleasure means sex pleasure. Why they are working so hard day and night? Only for that sex pleasure. That is the center. Lokanātha: They say, "We want to come together to serve the Lord." Is that excuse or is that... Prabhupāda: Together they go to hell. (laughs) Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in your society, if sometimes householder devotee, they do very big, big job, I mean they are advanced then? Prabhupāda: Who has done that big job? Hm? You have done? Devotee: Well, we see all the GBC, and they are doing very nicely, like Saurabha dāsa and Mūrti dāsa. Prabhupāda: They are sannyāsīs. Saurabha is sannyāsa. His wife doesn't live with him. Kīrtanānanda: The same principle is there for everyone, in so far as one becomes detached, then he's sannyas. Prabhupāda: Yes, sannyāsa. Detachment required. Kīrtanānanda: It is not a matter of cloth. *Prabhupāda: No. Sa sannyāsī. Anāsaktasya viṣayān. He has no attachment for this eating, sleeping, mating. He is attached to Kṛṣṇa. And that is sannyāsī. Sannyāsī does not means dress. Detached. Sat sannyāsī. Sat, oṁ tat sat, the supreme, and for Him everything, risk all. That is sannyāsa. Anāsaktya... What is that? Bhagavad*-gītā? *Indian man: Anāśritaḥ karma*-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma... *Prabhupāda: Ah, anāśritaḥ karma*-phalaṁ, kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ sa sannyāsī... [Bg. 6.1]. One who does not take the reward of his labor, he is sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karam-phalaṁ. Everyone works for some profit, and one who does not take the profit, works for Kṛṣṇa, he is sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ, kāryam. Kāryam means it is my duty to work for Kṛṣṇa. In this way one works, he is sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī ca yogī ca na niraghir na cākriyaḥ. He is yogi also. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (to passerby) Just like Arjuna. He is fighting not for himself; for himself he declined to fight. But when he understood that Kṛṣṇa wants, "All right, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73]. I shall fight. I shall kill my grandfather and everyone." This is sannyāsī. *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said that if a devotee is sincerely serving the Lord, and Kṛṣṇa takes away his material opulence, and still if he's sincerely serving the Lord, the Lord becomes his intimate servant, He says. Prabhupāda: Intimate servant? *Devotee: Yes. In one purport in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Is there, "servant," this word is used? Devotee: Becomes his friend. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. [break] ...stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, Fifth Canto, that there are gṛhasthas, they are not attached to gṛhastha. They actually, they are attached to Kṛṣṇa, but maybe for convenience sake he remains a gṛhastha. Gṛhastha, there are two words: gṛhastha and gṛhamedhī. One who is gṛhamedhī, he is hopeless. One who is gṛhastha, that is all right. (end) Morning Walk -- December 25, 1975, Sandau Prabhupāda: ...head of the Beatles? Haṁsadūta: Actually, Lennon was. Prabhupāda: He was the head. Haṁsadūta: He was the most outstanding... Prabhupāda: Directing, managing director. Haṁsadūta: Managing type, yes. Prabhupāda: And next, George. Haṁsadūta: No, George was always considered to be in the back, the background man. Prabhupāda: Last prentice. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) Haṁsadūta: George is also again smoking and drinking. Prabhupāda: Acchā? Haṁsadūta: Because he always has to keep that kind of company in order to produce his records. Prabhupāda: No, no, he is very nice boy. I have studied. Very good boy, George. He showed me in Bombay. He came to see me in Bombay. Haṁsadūta: Just recently? Prabhupāda: No, last year. Haṁsadūta: Two years ago. Prabhupāda: He is keeping Jagannātha within his beadbag and chanting. *Haṁsadūta: Just before I came to India, Mukunda met him for about two hours. He said he was very friendly, and he would arrange a ninety*-nine-year lease for us, give us the right to the Bhaktivedanta Manor. *Prabhupāda: No, he's our well*-wisher, good boy. What is the time now? Devotee (1): A quarter to eight. Devotee (2): Sun shines very late, the sun rises. Prabhupāda: Because it is in the west. The sun rises from the east, so from Calcutta to here there must be one hour difference. (end) Morning Walk -- December 26, 1975, Sanand Prabhupāda: How degraded they have become. There is no food, and they are busy for growing tobacco. Hariśauri: ...You say that's what they call a cash crop. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hariśauri: The other day. Prabhupāda: Now eat cash. So cash is also paper. So what is the use of laboring so hard? You eat paper. Paper is available. Devotee (1): It is prohibited to buy gold at that temple. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: You cannot buy gold. Government has prohibited. *Prabhupāda: Because you are rascal, your government is rascal*-democracy. What is the government? Government means your replica. So why do you blame the government? You are fools, rascals; you send other fools and rascals and suffer consequence. [break] ...tea, growing tobacco, growing jute, and no grains. And grain for the animal, so that animal, as soon as it becomes fatty, send it to the slaughterhouse, and then finish business. Smoke, eat meat, drink, and be happy. So much land, but it is producing tobacco, which we are prohibiting, "No smoking." [break] Vegetable is utilized. (Hindi) These crops. (Hindi) [break] ...nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. Indian man: (Hindi) ...effulgence. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Prabhā. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad*-aṇḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40]. Indian man: What is meant, "halo" and "effulgence"? That word meaning, "halo"? Prabhā? Prabhupāda: Halo is ksatta(?). Practically the same meaning. [break] ...field is green and this field is not green? If you take care every field will be green. [break] ...prasādam to the audience. Devotee: Sumptuous. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Full plate. Prabhupāda: Then accept program. [break] ...distribution of prasāda, then we can go everywhere, whole day program, kīrtana and distribution. So that is meant. And simply dry philosophy? What people will understand? (Hindi) (end) Conversation on Roof -- December 26, 1975, Sanand Prabhupāda: What is the thesis of life? Harikeśa: According to who? Prabhupāda: Anyone. Harikeśa: Anyone. Some people say that life is to be enjoyed. Life is simply there for enjoyment. Prabhupāda: So the answer is that whether you are actually enjoying life. Harikeśa: Well, right now I'm not actually enjoying life, so... Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: ...I have to find out... Prabhupāda: Then the aim is to enjoy life. Harikeśa: Yes. So I have to find out the means to enjoy, and to negate the pain and to make the pleasure more. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's very nice proposal, but whether, at the present moment, or in the history, whether a man is enjoying life or suffering? Harikeśa: Well, men, men have actually never really enjoyed because they never understood enough about themselves. They were never able to overcome their difficulties due to ignorance. Prabhupāda: So then the next question will be that how to become enjoyable, or how to enjoy? The next question is.... There may be different thesis. So our thesis is that we are trying to enjoy life by covering ourself. The crude example.... Just like sometimes before, the.... It may be nowadays also current. The contraceptive method was by using one cover. Do you know that? Harikeśa: Hmh. Prabhupāda: What is called? Harikeśa: Prophylactic. Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: A prophylactic. Prabhupāda: Not prophylactic. Technical name. So, but that was not enjoyable. So then they discovered pills. So covered enjoyment is not enjoyment. It is not complete enjoyment. The same.... The real enjoyment in this material world is sex. Now if we want to enjoy sex, covered with coats and pants, is that enjoyment is pleasing? Harikeśa: No. Prabhupāda: Therefore actually when they want to enjoy sex in the private room, they become naked. So they are seeking enjoyment with this material body, but they are not able to enjoy on account of being covered. This is the thesis. Harikeśa: Hmmm. This is the Kṛṣṇa conscious thesis. Prabhupāda: Well, why do you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness immediately? From practical point of view. So why they want to enjoy sex life being naked? That means covered enjoyment is not enjoyment. It is hampered enjoyment. Therefore we living entities, or, say, human beings, we want enjoyment. That's all right. But we are not able to enjoy fully because we are covered by something. This is the thesis. This is the thesis. But these rascals, or the ignorant persons, they do not know that "I am covered by something. Therefore my enjoyment is not complete." This is the thesis. So you answer this. Our enjoyment is not being completed on account of being covered by this material body. This is the thesis. Harikeśa: So the antithesis would be there is no... Prabhupāda: The antithesis will be how to become uncovered. That is antithesis. And the synthesis will be that because we are unable to uncover immediately, therefore must be some synthesis. Harikeśa: Oh, I never thought of it that way. That's... Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The synthesis of the covering and the thesis of the soul should be synthesized by arrangement. That we are teaching. Harikeśa: Dialectical spiritualism. *Prabhupāda: Ye.... Not dia.... Dialectical means keep spiritualism or materialism. It is dialectic. Two sides there are, the material and the spiritual. These ignorant rascals, cats*-and dogslike men, they have no information of the thing which is covered. They're simply dealing with the covering. Therefore their knowledge is imperfect, and they're not successful by so many theses. They do not know the real problem. Who is enjoyer? That they do not know. That enjoyer is covered. And they are talking on the cover. That.... In Bengal, it is a proverb, said, that: Sobraniye tanatan.(?) In the.... I think I was talking on this. In the coconut. The coconut sweet pulp and water is within. And they are struggling with the fibers above the coconut. Coconut.... They have got some information coconut is enjoyable, but where is the enjoyable article is there, that they do not know. They have simply information this body, and the coconut's body is covered with fibers. And they are fighting with the fibers. None of these so-called capitalists or, what is called, Communists, they do not know where is the real substance is. Superficially, they are fighting on the platform of fiber covering. That's all. Sobraniye tanatan,(?) this Bengali word exactly. They're fighting just like dogs. Actually they do not know how to become happy, but one dog is barking upon another dog, and they're fighting, attacking, barking-useless. The dogs and cats, they do not know what is the value of life, and they fight on the covering, same fiber, fight. But here is a chance, human being. Therefore dialectic. Dialectic materialism. You should be materialist; you should not condemn anything, both the inside and outside. The inside pulp of coconut requires the covering outside. Otherwise, it will be spoiled. Crude example. But the real substance is inside, not outside. But these rascals, they have no information of the inside substance. They think that "Here is coconut. Let us try to find out happiness." And they are simply struggling to adjust the fibers. Therefore they have been described as mūḍhaḥ, rascals. Hmmm? What do you think, Haṁsadūta? Haṁsadūta: Very perfect. Harikeśa: Completely smashed all the opposition. No more arguments. Prabhupāda: So you have to do this, to fight all these rascals. Harikeśa: 'Cause all philosophy is based on the proposition that "I am this body." Prabhupāda: That's all. Harikeśa: Or "I am this..." *Prabhupāda: Then he remains the same animal, cats and dogs. There is no advancement. Therefore you see despite so many rascal philosophers in the Western countries, they simply fight and bomb and cheat and politics, diplomacy. The same*-on the surface of the coconut, not inside. So you have to prove that "All of you are rascals. You do not know where to get pleasure." They're missing that point. All rascals, they're putting new philosophy, thesis. So what is the value of that thesis? He does not know. It requires expert. Just like somebody has told: "In this land, there is gold." So somebody's digging here, somebody's digging there, somebody's digging there. And they are, do not find gold, and struggling. But one expert, what is called, soil expert? Harikeśa: Geologist. Prabhupāda: Geologist. No, geologist and soil ex..., soil expert. Harikeśa: Minerologist. Haṁsadūta: Mineralogist. Prabhupāda: He can say: "Here is gold. You dig here. Here is the gold mine." Then you get gold mine. And one who is not expert, simply he has understood that "In this area, there is gold mine," and they are simply fighting; *everyone has come to take the gold. But without expert knowledge, they're simply fighting. They do not find gold. That is the position. So expert knowledge is Kṛṣṇa. He therefore begins: dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Within this body, the living force, that is the soul. Because that soul is there, it is changing body, different. Try to understand that active principle. And where is that understanding? They simply putting different theses. They do not, neither do they know antithesis or synthesis. So our.... We know the thesis, antithesis and synthesis, that this soul, living entity, is within this body. Now the body is important so long the soul is there. Otherwise, body is a lump of matter. So the soul is suffering. He's seeking after enjoyment, but he's suffering. So therefore.... The most prominent suffering is death. That he cannot avoid. Or he's not.... The so*-called materialistic scientists, they have not been able, neither they do know, who is the sufferer or enjoyer. They take this body. The same fiber platform. So actually they are rascals. What is the value of the thesis, antithesis? Harikeśa: So actually everything.... All the arguments they bring up is simply the material thesis. There is no antithesis 'cause.... Just like hot and cold. Hot is... *Prabhupāda: No. They're seeking-the same example*-the enjoyable thing, on the platform of shell of the coconut, fibers of the coconut. They do not know that within the shell, within the fiber, there is coconut. That they do not know. You said two sides. But they do not know the other side. They only know the one side, the body. There will be synthesis when there are two. But they have no two. They simply one subject matter, the body, and that is useless struggle. It is just like Māyāvādīs. Neti neti: "Not this, not this. Not this, not this." Therefore they advocate revolution, that something is going on for some days; again revolution. That means "Not this." Neti neti. The experiment says.... Experiment. Everyone is doing that. They are trying to derive happiness through some system or idea of adjustment, but it becomes spoiled and useless after some time. Therefore they say another revolution required. Harikeśa: In the dictionary, that, the definition of experiment was you try it and see if it works. Prabhupāda: But if it is not perfect, how it will work? Harikeśa: Not possible. Prabhupāda: And experiment means, those who are making experiment, they do not know where is the perfect thing. The same example, that if you make experiment about understanding who is your father, it will all fail. How long you'll go on inquiring, ask any old man, "Sir, are you my father?" Or will this process be successful at any time? Without consulting your mother, if you simply go on asking all old men, "Sir, are you my father?" And if somebody falsely says, "Yes, I am your father," is that successful inquiry? This is going on. Harikeśa: Well, it gives mental satisfaction, and that, that... Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Mental satisfaction. Just like a child. You can cheat him by mental satisfaction, giving him one lozenges and take from him hundred rupees note. Harikeśa: But he's satis... Prabhupāda: That is also mental satisfaction. Harikeśa: But happiness is a state of mind. So the child is happy... Prabhupāda: Such mind is imperfect. What is this satisfaction? If mind is imperfect, so mental satisfaction is never complete satisfaction. That is also another illusion. It will be changed again. Again revolution. This is going on. So in the dialectic process, try to bring this thesis, that within this body there is the real enjoyer, and try to convince them in that way. That will be great service. Harikeśa: You've already done it. Prabhupāda: I've done with a few selected men. Now it has to be spread. We have to face bigger field. Then it will be nice. Hm? Thesis, antithesis and synthesis. This is good. This is scientific method. So, so what is that thesis? That thesis is given by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa gave the thesis: asmin dehe, the proprietor of the body is there. Within this body.... This is thesis. Harikeśa: Actually though, the, the thesis in Engel's philosophy would start off with the present existence, the present reality. Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: It starts with the present, what is now presently existing, and then the... *Prabhupāda: Well, presently or.... That is another foolishness. The, the body and the moving active principle is eternally existing. It is not that formerly the body did not stop acting. It is dead. Study the whole history of human beings, any being*-the death is always there. Then what is modern effort? Birth, death, old age, disease. They're always existing. Why do they say "modern"? This is eternal fact. Why they should say it is modern? Harikeśa: Well, it's the present culmination of synthesis and antithesis. *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is their imperfect knowledge. They do not know. What is thesis, what is antithesis, and the synthesis, they do not know. As philosophers, they have found out the three things. But so far the solution of the problem of human society.... You cannot solve the problems of animals' society. That is not possible. So this thesis can be understood by human beings. The animals cannot understand it, that within this body the soul is there. On account of presence of the soul, everything is going on, bodily affair. This thesis cannot be understood by the animals. So if you cannot understand, then you are also animal, although you are two*-legged. So what is the value of your thesis, antithesis? You are animal. Harikeśa: I think a thesis, it would be described in the dictionary as a proposition. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Who can give proposition unless one is human being? The dog cannot give proposition. The animal cannot give proposition. So who is giving this proposition throughout the Western world, that within this body there is the real person? Who understands this? Therefore they're all animals. What is the value of their so*-called philosophy? What do you think? Yasyātmā buddhiḥ kunāpe tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. If he's in the bodily concept of life, then he remains animal. What is the value of his thesis? Now here is the thesis. Now antithesis is also there. Actually we are trying to adjust. Only society. The thesis is the soul. The antithesis is the body. And synthesis is how to adjust the body and soul so that the soul be benefited from this entanglement. Harikeśa: That's the varṇāśrama system? Prabhupāda: That is different thing only. Harikeśa: O.K. Prabhupāda: Lat.... First of all, this is the problem. Harikeśa: First to find out the problem... Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: ...and discuss the problem. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is dialectic. So you can write dialectic spiritualism. Harikeśa: Dialectic spiritualism. I think they should print this also in Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: It'd make a good article. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: It would make a good article, what you've just spoken. Prabhupāda: So write. Harikeśa: You so completely destroy the opposition, it's very hard to say anything more. Prabhupāda: Yes. That you have to prove. You can eulogize your Guru Mahārāja, but you have to learn it and face the public and be strong to defend yourself. That is success. Not by praising your Guru Mahārāja. You'll praise your Guru Mahārāja. That is not very difficult. But be victorious to the opposing elements. Then you will praise your Guru Mahārāja nicely. At home, you can praise your Guru Mahārāja, and Guru Mahārāja be satisfied, "Oh, my disciples are praising me." That is not very.... That is good. Respectful. That is the qualification. But you have to fight. Then your Guru Mahārāja will be glorified. Harikeśa: The problem nowadays though is that I met some of these Socialists on the train, and I would ask them, "What is your philosophy?" and they would just smile and... Prabhupāda: There is no philosophy. They're cats and dogs. What philosophy they have? Harikeśa: They don't know their philosophy. So how can we defeat them? Prabhupāda: The philosophy classes are being closed now in the universities. Harikeśa: It is useless. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They're thinking it is useless, simply mental speculation. And Bhagavad*-gītā says, tattva jñānārthaṁ darśanam. Philosophy means to find out the ultimate truth. That is philosophy. Harikeśa: But actually this is the proof of Marx's philosophy... Prabhupāda: No. Therefore I say the dialectic. The dialectics should proceed further. They have ended this, that the workers should be the proprietor. Harikeśa: So now the, the, the, there's no philosophy. So the workers, they are simply frustrated. Now they're going to rebel and revolt without any philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be natural. Because if you cannot live perfect philosophy, then they will revolt. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ... You are a rascal, and you're trying to lead other rascals with some rascal philosophy. How long this rascaldom will go on? Harikeśa: So there's no need for any movement... Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: ...Communist movement. Prabhupāda: There is need of movement. Harikeśa: No, no. I mean there's no need for any organized Communist movement, because according to their philosophy... Prabhupāda: Yes, because they're fools. They're as fools. They are simply criticizing the capitalists, that much. That much, there is something ideal that the state property should be equally divided. That's a good thesis. But they do not know that it is not the ultimate solution. You do not know who is the proprietor. You do not know the proprietor. These things belong to Him. You are using it. I am thinking that "You are proprietor." But actually you are not proprietor. He is proprietor. If that is the position, then I take it from you that: "You cannot possess. I shall possess." Then what is my possess? The same thing. As you took it, took it out from this man, so I took it, take it from you. So my position is the same. If you cannot find out who is the actual proprietor, then you may change hands. The problem remains there, that it, it does not belong to you. You are forcibly snatching from the proprietor, or without knowing the proprietor, you are making arrangement. What is the value of this arrangement? Harikeśa: So it's just the animal philosophy of the strong dominating the weak... Prabhupāda: Yes. That's it. Harikeśa: ...in, in a new package. Prabhupāda: "Might is right." That's all. This is going on. Harikeśa: So this was the philosophy of Machiavelli, that "Might makes right." Prabhupāda: But Machiavelli also does not know who is the proprietor. That is the defect. Machiavelli also does not know. He's also another fool. So long you do not know who is the proprietor, then... Harikeśa: But it's true. Might does make right. Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa is the strongest. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the proprietor." But they'll not accept it. Kṛṣṇa says, the real proprietor says, that "I am the bhokta. Sarva*-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]." But they are so rascal that they will deny the existence of Kṛṣṇa or God, or the real proprietor. They claim to be proprietor for a few days, and they, by one slap of Kṛṣṇa's hand, they finished all proprietorship, and they are going, struggling. This ignorance is prevailing all over the world. Does not know who is the proprietor, how I became proprietor, how I shall be enjoying. Nothing. The same thing, the dog philosophy: if the dog secures a morsel of bread, he's thinking, "I am proprietor." Another one snatches: "I am proprietor." This is going on. But the dog has no sense that none of us will be proprietor. So when you know who is the proprietor, then this Īśopaniṣad.... Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything, God's property. You enjoy for livelihood what is given to you. That's all. That is perfect philosophy. "I am the proprietor." That was the system in Vedic civilization. God is proprietor. King is the representative of God. He knows.... He gives you some land, that "You take this land, produce your livelihood, utilizing this land, and whatever you produce, one fourth give me." Not a fixed tax. "If you produce, one fourth is mine. If you don't produce, there is no tax." This was the system. And that includes all tax. No botheration. So people were God-fearing, honest, simple-dealing. So "I have produced a hundred mounds of rice. The king, you can take twenty-five mounds. That is my obligation." And king is also satisfied. By distributing that grain, he maintains the whole government. The real difficulty is all these rascals, they are not sufficiently educated. They are mūḍhas. And they are trying to solve the problems. That is not possible. That is andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. They are bound up. They're making adjustment, but.... Just like Gandhi. For making adjustment, all of a sudden a man came, (makes sound like gun) khat. Finished. Kennedy was making some adjustment. Somebody came and killed him. It is like that. What is the value of your adjustments? It will be finished after some days. Therefore the Russians, they support revolution. They said, "It is necessary." They admit the imperfectness. And occasional revolution makes it perfect. This is their idea of perfection. But they do not inquire that "What is that supreme power which makes our ideas of perfection imperfect?" These rascals, they do not never, do not ever inquire, "What is that power which forces to make our attempt frustrated, spoil, and make it imperfect?" What do they say about this? Haṁsadūta: They never come to this point. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: They never come to this point. Prabhupāda: Just see how rascal they are. This is the fact. We make some arrangement, and after few years it becomes imperfect. They say the revolution required. Why? That is natural. And natural means a power which makes your arrangement spoiled. Then what is your brain? You have got some superior brain which nullifies your plan. Why don't you accept this? Harikeśa: Like breaking the law and being thrown in jail... Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: ...after you are caught... Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: ...and then wondering why. Prabhupāda: Yes. He does not know that "I was imperfect, thief. Therefore I have put into jail." So we can face any philosopher. But I can give you ideas. You can write some small articles. Let them solve these thesis, antithesis and synthesis. They, they accept this thesis, antithesis? Harikeśa: Oh, yeah. Prabhupāda: Put them. Harikeśa: And actually it's, it works very nicely because the thesis doesn't have to be accepted as a fact in the beginning. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But discuss on.... That is dialectic. Complete discussion. That is wanted. That we want. Harikeśa: So now if they're actually interested in the scientific method, they must accept our thesis for discussion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dialectic. Harikeśa: And then they can put... Prabhupāda: They have accepted dialectic. They.... Marx says that this should be the conclusion of materialism: ultimately the worker shall enjoy. Harikeśa: Fruitive, it's very fruitive. Prabhupāda: That is good idea. But who is the worker, he does not know. Write small pamphlet. Just like our Svarūpa Dāmodara has written small pamphlet. People, general people, they're also rascals, andhā. They can accept these rascals. But why we shall accept? Harikeśa: This is experimental philosophy. Prabhupāda: But that.... Experimental philosophy means rascaldom. You do not know actually what is the fact. Then you make experiment. That means you are rascal. Harikeśa: I meant that this thesis, antithesis... Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa does not say, "Make an experiment." He says the fact: asmin dehe dehinaḥ. "The proprietor of the body is within this body." There is no question of experimenting. Harikeśa: But that's our thesis. Prabhupāda: Not.... I say "thesis." Kṛṣṇa do.... Kṛṣṇa says the fact. Harikeśa: But I mean in order to... Prabhupāda: But if you don't accept Kṛṣṇa's... Harikeśa: Yeah, they don't accept. So that, that's our thesis. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, then take it as thesis. Harikeśa: Thesis. So therefore it's an experiment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not experiment. It is to be subjected to discussion. That is not experiment. Because the fact is there. Now whether it is fact, that you have to discuss. Harikeśa: So this experimental knowledge should be strictly kept in the scientific realm. You know, discussion...? Because you asked me before to write on... Prabhupāda: The scientific knowledge is already there, but as you do not accept it, then the question of discussion, or, you say, experiment, can come. The truth is already there. Just like the sun is the truth, is there. Everyone knows. Now somebody says "There is no light," and somebody says "There is light." Now it has to be discussed. Harikeśa: In this book, Lenin has a dialogue. He makes these dialogues. At his.... I was just looking quickly. There's some dialogue here. Prabhupāda: What is that dialogue? Harikeśa: I haven't looked into it exactly, but I've seen.... This is too... Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: He's too insane to read quickly. Prabhupāda: No, read it. Let us see. Harikeśa: OK. "The fundamental premises of the theory of knowledge of Mock(?) and Averniu..., Avanarias(?) are frankly, simply and clearly expounded by them in their early philosophical works. To these works we shall now turn, postponing for later treatment an examination of the corrections and ammendations subsequently made by these writers. 'The task of science,' Mock(?) wrote in 1872, 'can only be: 1. to determine the laws of connection of ideas, psychology; 2. to discover...' " Prabhupāda: That is not science, ideas. Harikeśa: He's saying to determine the laws of connection of ideas. Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: He says he wants to determine the laws of connection of ideas. Prabhupāda: But idea is also not fact. And what is other word? Harikeśa: "The laws of connection of ideas." Prabhupāda: If the idea is imperfect, then where is, what is the meaning of this law? That is also imperfect. Harikeśa: Well, actually there's three things here. And they work together. 'Cause he calls this psychology. And the second one... Prabhupāda: But psychology is also imperfect. Harikeśa: So, yes, he's going to now connect that with physics. He says, "To discover the laws of connections of sensations..." Prabhupāda: But physics, physical law, also, you are studying with your imperfect senses. So how far it is perfect? Just like the physical laws. There is heat in the sun, temperature. So you are seeing from long distance, and you are suggesting, "There cannot be any light." So this is imperfect. Harikeśa: Well, what about the law of physics...? Oh, it's going to run out of tape. [break] Prabhupāda: ...no practical experience, actually, what is the position of the sun, because you cannot go there. So I may theori.... Here, here. Hariśauri: Do this side first and then that side. Harikeśa: Well, he's actually saying that this is the task of science. He's not speaking about the idea of there's life or not in the sun. What he's thinking of here is, for example, a sensation. A sensation is an actual fact. Just like if..., there's a law that says equal and opposite reaction to actions. If I push some thing, some object, that, as this object is being pushed this way, there is simultaneously an equal and opposite reaction which is the force between the object and the floor, and the reaction comes in heat or friction... Prabhupāda: Well, who made this arrangement? Harikeśa: So that arrangement is a law. Prabhupāda: Well, that law. Who made this law? Harikeśa: Well, it's just a physical combination of matter. Prabhupāda: Physical combination, then these physical activities are more powerful than your ideas. Harikeśa: Yes. Therefore the third thing... Prabhupāda: Then you have no control over the physical activities. Harikeśa: No, we have control because I have to push this. Prabhupāda: No, you have no control. Harikeśa: But I am pushing this. It is my will. Prabhupāda: No, no. If you will that "Let the sun be cool," will it be cool? You have no control over the physical elements. You have no control. So what is the use of your theorizing? That is foolish. Harikeśa: Well, he's giving here the idea of science, that... Prabhupāda: Science... Harikeśa: There's a connection... Prabhupāda: You have no complete science. You see some sporadic action of the scientific method. Just like we are in the sunshine. This is scientific. But you do not know how the sunshine is coming, and who is there, who is supplying the heat and light and so on. So many things are there. You do not know. Harikeśa: So your idea is that there's a limit to all this. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because... Harikeśa: It's not possible. Prabhupāda: ...anything, any ideas made by imperfect man is useless. That is our, our proposition. You are imperfect, and the sun is so perfect, physically, that how you can theorize unless you know the whole expert. If you say "I know everything," then the question will be: "Who made this sun? So powerful, so extraordinarily heated and light. Who made it?" You did..., you have not made it. Where is your, that knowledge? Harikeśa: As I read on, I find out that it's... Prabhupāda: These are all speculation. That's all. Harikeśa: Definitely. Useless book. Prabhupāda: Useless speculation. Harikeśa: But this, this argument that's being brought up here, actually people are thinking about a lot, that there's an idea and there's, there's a fact... Prabhupāda: That argument is.... Just like I told you, in my childhood I was thinking in the gramophone box there is a man. I could not think at that time without a man how this gramophone can sing so nicely. So there is a man, and as soon as the record is..., he gives, he sings. That.... I was thinking like that. Harikeśa: So he would say that you thought there was a man there, but actually there wasn't. Prabhupāda: And somebody say one ghost. Or somebody may say something. Harikeśa: But there wasn't. Prabhupāda: But they're all imperfect knowledge. I may say man, you may say ghost, others may say something, but all of them are rascaldom. It has no value. Harikeśa: So the third step in science means to see the fact and make the idea according to the fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real science. Harikeśa: So his method is the method of speculation. Prabhupāda: That's all. Harikeśa: First, there's the idea; the second, there's the real fact; and the third, there's the synthesis between the two. Prabhupāda: They're all theories. The same experiment. To find out who is my father. Harikeśa: All these guys are very dry. Prabhupāda: It has no meaning. Harikeśa: There's just talking. No value whatsoever. You can't even argue nicely with these men. They're just... Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot argue with dogs. Harikeśa: Waste of time. They'll simply keep on barking. Prabhupāda: But we can place our, what is called, facts, as we learn from Kṛṣṇa, and try to defend it. That is argument. Harikeśa: Then if somebody has any intelligence left, he'll take it. Prabhupāda: So you cannot begin with this sun. The beginning of educating is that put this thesis, as Kṛṣṇa is putting, that, that this body is not all in all. Within the body, there is soul. Harikeśa: Unless that's understood, there's no question of knowledge. *Prabhupāda: If, in the beginning, or on the basic principles, he remains a rascal, then there is no knowledge. If he does not understand that there is soul within this body, then he remains animal. What is the value of animal's speculation? Sa eva go*-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. So we shall treat them as animals. So what, what we have got to learn from the animals? They're not interested. Now let.... You can accuse: "Why you should say animals?" I may say, "You are animals." That's all right. Just come to discussion, whether you are animal or I am animal. Harikeśa: Calmly come to discussion. Prabhupāda: This the..., this theory is going on perpetually, whether there is soul or not. But these people, these Russians, they are so ignorant, they will not allow anybody to believe that there is soul. Atheistic, stubborn atheistic. Although they cannot answer this question that there must be something superior which is moving this body. And they cannot answer the, what is that superior element. Harikeśa: The unknown chemical. Prabhupāda: Not unknown. It is unknown to you. But known to us. If it is unknown to you, you take, you know it from me. That is real knowledge. Why you persist that "It is unknown"? It should remain ever unknown? Why shall I take from anyone else? That's a fact. Either you answer what is that element which is missing so that the body is now dead. Simply your denial is obstinacy. That is dog's obstinacy. Then you are like a dog. You answer that: "This is the reason." Make experiment; prove it. Then you are right. So long you cannot do it, simply denying, that is dog's obstinacy. If you, as you say, there is no soul, it is chemical combination, so bring the chemicals and put him into life. Then your statement is right. You cannot do it and simply persist. This is doggish. You are calling a lump of matter your father, your child, your relative, and when the soul is gone, you say, "Oh, my father is gone." Why your father is gone? He's lying there on the bed. The same coat, pant, face, ear, eyes. Why do you say, "My father has gone"? What is this nonsense? So that chemical combination is your father? Bring your father again, chemical combination. Hmm? What is the answer? Some foolish, rubbish thing, presentation, will it be accepted as knowledge? Harikeśa: Another point.... I just thought of. They say it's some chemical which is missing that's making life, yet, if the same chemical is there that's making life, what accounts for so many different varieties of life? If it's the same chemical, how is there so many different varieties from that same chemical? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: And if it's a different chemical, that means there's so many thousands and billions of chemicals. Yet they can't even find one of them. Prabhupāda: They do not know even one of them. Harikeśa: They don't even know one of them. Prabhupāda: (laughs) And still you are proud. What is this nonsense? And supposing the chemical combination is there and is being administered in different way for different life, then who is making this arrangement? Somebody's there who is making arrangement. You cannot do that. Therefore we are inferior, He is superior. You have to accept. It is not that it is not existing. It is existing. So as you are trying to do something, somebody has already done it. Then what is your credit? Haṁsadūta: On the one hand, they say that the creation was a chance, accident, and on the other hand, they're trying to find the law of nature. So this is a contradiction. Prabhupāda: Just see. And the law. Just see. And law, law, nature is not giving him chance. And he's depending on chance theory. He's so unfortunate rascal that he does not get even the chance. So discuss these things in different ways and issue a small pamphlet in Russian language. Or any language. Doesn't matter. Harikeśa: Oh, in Russian! Prabhupāda: They're the greatest atheists. Harikeśa: Oh, that would be.... A dialectic spiritualism pamphlet in Russian. That's big. Russian. [break] Prabhupāda: The land is very nice. All flat, flat land. Hundreds of miles. Indian: It is all tobacco. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian: All tobacco. Prabhupāda: Just see. They're misusing. Haṁsadūta: You can smell it. Indian: Smell tobacco. Prabhupāda: Oh. Harikeśa: Oh, that's why it is. Tobacco. I always thought someone was smoking bidis right downstairs, or something. Haṁsadūta: ...smell tobacco. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Virginia smells like this. Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: Virginia, in America. There, all they do is grow tobacco now. [break] Haṁsadūta: .... But on the other hand, they claim that there are certain laws which govern this material nature. This is a complete contradictory position. Hariśauri: A law means there has to be some compliance to a higher authority. Prabhupāda: So discuss all these nonsense propositions. Harikeśa: Somebody...? [break] Prabhupāda: He has clearly proved that Darwin is a fool. He's wrong. He has not written the word "fool," but he's wrong. (end) Prabhupāda: These things are not available in the Western countries. They do not know all these. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that there has ever been a personality who has ever given such a great gift to the Western world as yourself, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, actually that is the fact. But let them appreciate, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gradually I think they all will. Some are now . . . Prabhupāda: No, they are intelligent. First . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The thing is, it seems to me that we are flooding so many books that they must become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Yes, they have no alternative than to read these books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Practically now it is commonplace that every day when our men go out, supposing each man meets in a day a thousand people or five hundred people, always, without a doubt, at least one or two of the people he's met, they already have another book, and they are taking a second or third book. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many of them have two or three volumes of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta or Bhāgavatam . And although they may not read it, their children are reading it. Prabhupāda: Somebody is reading. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. I made a study. I asked the men in our party, when they were all gathered, to raise their hand if they had received a book before joining our party, and every single one of them had gotten a book before joining the movement—without exception. They were attracted through reading a book or a magazine. Prabhupāda: I talked with that police officer. He has published. In Chicago. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Crime: What to do?" Harikeśa: "Why and what to do?" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Why and what to do?" Prabhupāda: Every paper. There are so many papers. Education so much advanced, and everyone is a criminal. Hmm. Have saṅkīrtana , then lecture. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You chant? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa only. (break) That is foolishness. Why our men does not become ready before four o'clock and have maṅgala ārati and kīrtana ? If our habits are not changed, then what is the use of spending so much money? (pause) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In no way can anyone say that they're independent. There is no possibility. At every moment one is dependent. And if anyone says they aren't, they are simply foolish rascals. We have to challenge everyone in the world on this point, "You cannot be independent." He was pointing out, saying that even in politics, the politicians like Indira think that they are independent, and Prabhupāda was saying that Mujibur Rahman, he fought so hard for his country's independence, Bangladesh. But in one hour, when the soldiers came, they killed him and every single family member, not sparing anyone. But he thought he was independent. He thought his country had become independent. But in one hour it was all wiped away. Prabhupāda: So where is your independence? What is the answer? At any moment you have to die. Even Mujibur Rahman or Mussolini or big, big, so . . . Napoleon. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Franco. There was that Franco. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. He was given horse urine to drink, Napoleon. Such a great hero, but he had to drink horse urine. This Englishman after Battle of . . . what is that? Waterloo. When he was arrested, when he was asking water, he was given horse urine. Because everyone was very, very angry. Napoleon became just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. They were threatening their children: "Oh, he, Bona, is coming. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep." He became so much . . . he was known as Bona. You do not know all these things? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whole Europe became threatened, Napoleon. And there must be some reaction. And when he was under custody he was treated like an . . . so where is independence? He had to drink horse urine as reaction of his atrocities. Hitler committed suicide and finished himself. Mussolini was forced to be killed. Gandhi was killed. And they are fighting for independence. You know this Sydney? Sydney? You know why the city is known as Sydney? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Sir Philip Sydney, a great commander, during the fighting time, when he was shot he asked for water, and the water was not supplied and he died. Now, he was very generous man. He was the commander. Water was brought, and at the same time another soldier was being carried. He was also going to die. He was looking for the water. So immediately he said: "This water give him. Give him," and he died. He was very generous. He knew that, "I am going to die. If he can be saved, give him this water." So that Sydney, Sir Philip Sydney, his name. Melbourne, it is also named after a great soldier. So where is your independence? If you are thinking independently and doing things independently, then is it not foolishness? Hmm? (chuckles) Why don't you answer? You don't want to be foolish? (laughter) Suppose within the prison walls, if you want to do things independently, is it possible? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you're always dependent. Prabhupāda: You'll be put into further sufferings as soon as you violate the rules and regulation of the jail. You'll be put to a further term of suffering. Just like they are independently trying to avoid pregnancy, and the same man who has killed his own child, or same mother, he is being killed within the womb. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni ( BG 3.27). Nature will not tolerate this. In India still these things are not happening because they are not so advanced to use all these contraceptive method. But in Europe, America, it has become a common affair to kill the child within the womb. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is starting here also. *Prabhupāda: Yes, gradually. As soon as you kill, then you must be killed. This law is there: life for life. So where is your independence? Independence means you are inviting more sufferings, that's all. You go on, declare your independence. We are the only sane man. We have accepted that, "We have not independence." Here Kṛṣṇa is asking. "Let me surrender unto . . ." That's all. So we have to convince the people, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. You are foolishly rascal. You are trying to be independent. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. You do that." That will make him happy. In many varieties of ways we have to convince them and prove that "You are foolishly thinking that there is independence, so*-called scientific advancement, and only promising, 'Yes, in future we shall be like this, be like this.' " What is future? Just take account of your present position. Where is the history that you have . . .? If in the past something like that happened, then you can expect future. But in the past, the whole world history, there was no independence. (break) . . . clearly says, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27): "These rascals, out of false ego, and vidmūḍha , foolishly declaring that, 'I am the doer of everything. I can do everything independently.' " Kartāham iti manyate. Manyate means "falsely think." Actually, he is nothing but a small particle. This egotism is the root cause of suffering. Discuss all these things amongst yourselves and preach, and inform these rascals, so-called civilized scientists and philosopher. That is preaching. We have to present the truth in such a way that they will be convinced, "Yes." Within fifteen minutes the plane in Arabia, fifty-three men fell. Within fifteen . . . it takes fifteen minutes to die. That's all. Where is your independence? You have invented so many nice machine, but when there is order from superior, "You nonsense, your machine . . . you die immediately," what you can do? So why don't you accept there is superior? Hmm? Why do they not accept? What is the reason? You cannot say? Harikeśa: Vimūḍhātmā . Prabhupāda: Yes. That accept. If he accepts that he's vimūḍha , then it is an advance. Just like a dog is barking, " Yow, yow, yow, yow! " You just run towards him with a stick, he'll immediately go away and stop. Because he is dog, he is thinking, "I am independent. I can bark like this." And as soon as . . . simply one stick—finish his independence. You'll find psychologically, however a big dog he may be, if you just run towards him with a stick, he'll go. (laughs) He knows that, "When this man will strike me with the stick, I cannot do anything." He knows it very well. Sometimes falsely if you touch the ground, he will go away. Everyone is thinking independently. He is forming a party, "revolution," "ism," and so many things. All of them are foolish rascals. They do not see the history. Stronger men than ourselves—Napoleon, Hitler, this man, that man, Gandhi—everyone is finished. So where is . . . what is the value of my planning again? (break) There are many gods? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Vivekananda. He is follower of Vivekananda. (break) . . . Vivekananda's house was made, say, eighty years before. So what is the use of this house? It is standing and it is covered with matches . . . what is called? Straw? What is called? Harikeśa: Lines? Prabhupāda: No, no. Dorma . We say dorma . The bamboo cut into slice and open . . . Harikeśa: Citar. Citar . Prabhupāda: Citar ? Harikeśa: Like the roof in the other place in Madras. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is English? Citar it is called? Harikeśa: No, Hindi. Prabhupāda: English, what is the English? They do not use it. Hariśauri: A straw roof, they call that thatching. Thatch. Prabhupāda: Thatching, yes. That is right. So the windows are thatched. So where is the protection? Vivekananda is standing as preacher. So where is the preachers? People should have gone there in hundreds; *there should have been some program. So where is the program? Simply "Vivekananda house." Lit up the house. (break) . . . rows of statues on the beach, many statues—for passing stool by the crows. I have seen in Calcutta one statue of Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee. So in the morning, on the day of the birth anniversary, in the morning the municipal sweepers with their brush, they will rub it to cleanse the solidly stuck*-up crow's stool with water. It will be done for three, four hours. Then in the evening, big, big men will come, gather, and offer him garland one after another, just like they were offering me. In this way the meeting will be held. In the morning it is brushed with the sweeper's street brush, and in the evening it is offered garland. I have seen it. Here also I see that she has kept Kṛṣṇa's mūrti outside. It is aparādha . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not kṛṣṇa*-bhaktas , these people, at all. Hariśauri: Even that tulasī tree around the corner, they have clipped to shape it, cut all the branches. Prabhupāda: They have no guidance. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last night when we were reading, they all left, especially on that point of following the regulative principles—no meat, crabs, fish, eggs. They all got up and walked out. Prabhupāda: You said that the same cooking place will have to do, where they are cooking meat? Harikeśa: They're not cooking it now. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: They're not doing that now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (break) . . . is not planning. When he comes here he is determined that he will not eat in anyone's home. Prabhupāda: That is very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not only that, but he's not going to sleep in anyone's home either. They want to camp out by the riversides. Prabhupāda: Very good idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that he finds it very . . . from reading your books it is very clear that Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very careful and strict to only eat prasādam cooked by proper persons. Prabhupāda: No, purchased from Jagannātha temple. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, like that. Prabhupāda: People would come to offer Him prasādam , so what is the cost of the prasādam , that was taken, and He purchased. Formerly, the system was, there was no hotel, but there were temples. You go, and you can purchase very cheap price. I went with my father in my childhood in a place. My father would never take food at anyone's house or in the hotel. He will find out some temple and pay them and take prasādam . Still there are many temples. So I was about ten years old at that time, say, seventy years ago. So he paid two annas to the pūjārī and he gave us so much, it can be eaten by five, six men. Khicuṛi , vegetables, varieties. So much. Two annas . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a nice temple in Nabadwip that does that, the Govinda temple in Nabadwip. When I was going to purchase the land in Māyāpur, the Mr. Das, the lawyer and I, we would take our meals at this temple. Every day he would purchase. He would give a little. Prabhupāda: Yes, still there are. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had arrangement like this. At least a hundred people were taking, respectable people. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it's a very pop . . . it's a very big temple, that temple. Of course, I don't know how bona fide the persons who speak at night are, but every night there are speakers, and many people coming. It's a very good temple. I was very impressed by it. Nice rooms for people to stay . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . upstairs, very active, always being cleansed by people. Prabhupāda: That is temple. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And first*-class prasādam . Prabhupāda: So we have got so many examples. Introduce this. (end) Prabhupāda: These things are not available in the Western countries. They do not know all these. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that there has ever been a personality who has ever given such a great gift to the Western world as yourself, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, actually that is the fact. But let them appreciate, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gradually I think they all will. Some are now . . . Prabhupāda: No, they are intelligent. First . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The thing is, it seems to me that we are flooding so many books that they must become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Yes, they have no alternative than to read these books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Practically now it is commonplace that every day when our men go out, supposing each man meets in a day a thousand people or five hundred people, always, without a doubt, at least one or two of the people he's met, they already have another book, and they are taking a second or third book. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many of them have two or three volumes of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta or Bhāgavatam . And although they may not read it, their children are reading it. Prabhupāda: Somebody is reading. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. I made a study. I asked the men in our party, when they were all gathered, to raise their hand if they had received a book before joining our party, and every single one of them had gotten a book before joining the movement—without exception. They were attracted through reading a book or a magazine. Prabhupāda: I talked with that police officer. He has published. In Chicago. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Crime: What to do?" Harikeśa: "Why and what to do?" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Why and what to do?" Prabhupāda: Every paper. There are so many papers. Education so much advanced, and everyone is a criminal. Hmm. Have saṅkīrtana , then lecture. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You chant? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa only. (break) That is foolishness. Why our men does not become ready before four o'clock and have maṅgala ārati and kīrtana ? If our habits are not changed, then what is the use of spending so much money? (pause) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In no way can anyone say that they're independent. There is no possibility. At every moment one is dependent. And if anyone says they aren't, they are simply foolish rascals. We have to challenge everyone in the world on this point, "You cannot be independent." He was pointing out, saying that even in politics, the politicians like Indira think that they are independent, and Prabhupāda was saying that Mujibur Rahman, he fought so hard for his country's independence, Bangladesh. But in one hour, when the soldiers came, they killed him and every single family member, not sparing anyone. But he thought he was independent. He thought his country had become independent. But in one hour it was all wiped away. Prabhupāda: So where is your independence? What is the answer? At any moment you have to die. Even Mujibur Rahman or Mussolini or big, big, so . . . Napoleon. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Franco. There was that Franco. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. He was given horse urine to drink, Napoleon. Such a great hero, but he had to drink horse urine. This Englishman after Battle of . . . what is that? Waterloo. When he was arrested, when he was asking water, he was given horse urine. Because everyone was very, very angry. Napoleon became just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. They were threatening their children: "Oh, he, Bona, is coming. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep." He became so much . . . he was known as Bona. You do not know all these things? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whole Europe became threatened, Napoleon. And there must be some reaction. And when he was under custody he was treated like an . . . so where is independence? He had to drink horse urine as reaction of his atrocities. Hitler committed suicide and finished himself. Mussolini was forced to be killed. Gandhi was killed. And they are fighting for independence. You know this Sydney? Sydney? You know why the city is known as Sydney? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Sir Philip Sydney, a great commander, during the fighting time, when he was shot he asked for water, and the water was not supplied and he died. Now, he was very generous man. He was the commander. Water was brought, and at the same time another soldier was being carried. He was also going to die. He was looking for the water. So immediately he said: "This water give him. Give him," and he died. He was very generous. He knew that, "I am going to die. If he can be saved, give him this water." So that Sydney, Sir Philip Sydney, his name. Melbourne, it is also named after a great soldier. So where is your independence? If you are thinking independently and doing things independently, then is it not foolishness? Hmm? (chuckles) Why don't you answer? You don't want to be foolish? (laughter) Suppose within the prison walls, if you want to do things independently, is it possible? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you're always dependent. Prabhupāda: You'll be put into further sufferings as soon as you violate the rules and regulation of the jail. You'll be put to a further term of suffering. Just like they are independently trying to avoid pregnancy, and the same man who has killed his own child, or same mother, he is being killed within the womb. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni ( BG 3.27). Nature will not tolerate this. In India still these things are not happening because they are not so advanced to use all these contraceptive method. But in Europe, America, it has become a common affair to kill the child within the womb. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is starting here also. *Prabhupāda: Yes, gradually. As soon as you kill, then you must be killed. This law is there: life for life. So where is your independence? Independence means you are inviting more sufferings, that's all. You go on, declare your independence. We are the only sane man. We have accepted that, "We have not independence." Here Kṛṣṇa is asking. "Let me surrender unto . . ." That's all. So we have to convince the people, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. You are foolishly rascal. You are trying to be independent. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. You do that." That will make him happy. In many varieties of ways we have to convince them and prove that "You are foolishly thinking that there is independence, so*-called scientific advancement, and only promising, 'Yes, in future we shall be like this, be like this.' " What is future? Just take account of your present position. Where is the history that you have . . .? If in the past something like that happened, then you can expect future. But in the past, the whole world history, there was no independence. (break) . . . clearly says, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27): "These rascals, out of false ego, and vidmūḍha , foolishly declaring that, 'I am the doer of everything. I can do everything independently.' " Kartāham iti manyate. Manyate means "falsely think." Actually, he is nothing but a small particle. This egotism is the root cause of suffering. Discuss all these things amongst yourselves and preach, and inform these rascals, so-called civilized scientists and philosopher. That is preaching. We have to present the truth in such a way that they will be convinced, "Yes." Within fifteen minutes the plane in Arabia, fifty-three men fell. Within fifteen . . . it takes fifteen minutes to die. That's all. Where is your independence? You have invented so many nice machine, but when there is order from superior, "You nonsense, your machine . . . you die immediately," what you can do? So why don't you accept there is superior? Hmm? Why do they not accept? What is the reason? You cannot say? Harikeśa: Vimūḍhātmā . Prabhupāda: Yes. That accept. If he accepts that he's vimūḍha , then it is an advance. Just like a dog is barking, " Yow, yow, yow, yow! " You just run towards him with a stick, he'll immediately go away and stop. Because he is dog, he is thinking, "I am independent. I can bark like this." And as soon as . . . simply one stick—finish his independence. You'll find psychologically, however a big dog he may be, if you just run towards him with a stick, he'll go. (laughs) He knows that, "When this man will strike me with the stick, I cannot do anything." He knows it very well. Sometimes falsely if you touch the ground, he will go away. Everyone is thinking independently. He is forming a party, "revolution," "ism," and so many things. All of them are foolish rascals. They do not see the history. Stronger men than ourselves—Napoleon, Hitler, this man, that man, Gandhi—everyone is finished. So where is . . . what is the value of my planning again? (break) There are many gods? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Vivekananda. He is follower of Vivekananda. (break) . . . Vivekananda's house was made, say, eighty years before. So what is the use of this house? It is standing and it is covered with matches . . . what is called? Straw? What is called? Harikeśa: Lines? Prabhupāda: No, no. Dorma . We say dorma . The bamboo cut into slice and open . . . Harikeśa: Citar. Citar . Prabhupāda: Citar ? Harikeśa: Like the roof in the other place in Madras. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is English? Citar it is called? Harikeśa: No, Hindi. Prabhupāda: English, what is the English? They do not use it. Hariśauri: A straw roof, they call that thatching. Thatch. Prabhupāda: Thatching, yes. That is right. So the windows are thatched. So where is the protection? Vivekananda is standing as preacher. So where is the preachers? People should have gone there in hundreds; *there should have been some program. So where is the program? Simply "Vivekananda house." Lit up the house. (break) . . . rows of statues on the beach, many statues—for passing stool by the crows. I have seen in Calcutta one statue of Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee. So in the morning, on the day of the birth anniversary, in the morning the municipal sweepers with their brush, they will rub it to cleanse the solidly stuck*-up crow's stool with water. It will be done for three, four hours. Then in the evening, big, big men will come, gather, and offer him garland one after another, just like they were offering me. In this way the meeting will be held. In the morning it is brushed with the sweeper's street brush, and in the evening it is offered garland. I have seen it. Here also I see that she has kept Kṛṣṇa's mūrti outside. It is aparādha . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not kṛṣṇa*-bhaktas , these people, at all. Hariśauri: Even that tulasī tree around the corner, they have clipped to shape it, cut all the branches. Prabhupāda: They have no guidance. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last night when we were reading, they all left, especially on that point of following the regulative principles—no meat, crabs, fish, eggs. They all got up and walked out. Prabhupāda: You said that the same cooking place will have to do, where they are cooking meat? Harikeśa: They're not cooking it now. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: They're not doing that now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (break) . . . is not planning. When he comes here he is determined that he will not eat in anyone's home. Prabhupāda: That is very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not only that, but he's not going to sleep in anyone's home either. They want to camp out by the riversides. Prabhupāda: Very good idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that he finds it very . . . from reading your books it is very clear that Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very careful and strict to only eat prasādam cooked by proper persons. Prabhupāda: No, purchased from Jagannātha temple. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, like that. Prabhupāda: People would come to offer Him prasādam , so what is the cost of the prasādam , that was taken, and He purchased. Formerly, the system was, there was no hotel, but there were temples. You go, and you can purchase very cheap price. I went with my father in my childhood in a place. My father would never take food at anyone's house or in the hotel. He will find out some temple and pay them and take prasādam . Still there are many temples. So I was about ten years old at that time, say, seventy years ago. So he paid two annas to the pūjārī and he gave us so much, it can be eaten by five, six men. Khicuṛi , vegetables, varieties. So much. Two annas . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a nice temple in Nabadwip that does that, the Govinda temple in Nabadwip. When I was going to purchase the land in Māyāpur, the Mr. Das, the lawyer and I, we would take our meals at this temple. Every day he would purchase. He would give a little. Prabhupāda: Yes, still there are. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had arrangement like this. At least a hundred people were taking, respectable people. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it's a very pop . . . it's a very big temple, that temple. Of course, I don't know how bona fide the persons who speak at night are, but every night there are speakers, and many people coming. It's a very good temple. I was very impressed by it. Nice rooms for people to stay . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . upstairs, very active, always being cleansed by people. Prabhupāda: That is temple. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And first*-class prasādam . Prabhupāda: So we have got so many examples. Introduce this. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . no taste, no vitamin, and still they eat. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can everything. They have canned food, canned fruits, canned . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I have seen. Eating and remnants, it is kept in . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, put in the refrigerator. And then you cook it up again with fresh foods, mixing together. Harikeśa: Is it all right if he keeps it in there and then he puts some on the plate when taking? He puts on the plate when taking? Prabhupāda: I do not know whether it is all right, but it is not all right that you eat and keep it. This is not all right. Harikeśa: He takes it from there and puts it on the plate before you eat? Yaśodānandana: He keeps the salt in a separate bowl. When you require it he will give you only as much as you require. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. Hari-śauri: That's why the bowl is there. That's what I intended to do, but I have to keep it away from the table. *Prabhupāda: The principle should be that you should not leave remnants of food. As soon as it is used, it should not be used more. (break) Otherwise it is not possible to give up. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). I am eating something not very superior, but if I get the chance of eating something superior, then I give up this inferior. So there is no question of making it vacant or void. To fill up the place with better things. So when you think of Kṛṣṇa, then you forget māyā . Otherwise you are entrapped with māyā . Why Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto ? Mām eva ye prapadyante (BG 7.14). This is wanted. As soon as you become anyābhilāṣī , then it becomes difficult. Where is that knife? Give me one am root. Cut into pieces and get . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think these are from the local . . . growing here. *Prabhupāda: That we should be very careful, that we should think of Kṛṣṇa only, not of māyā , in everything. No more strength. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām (BG 9.14). Avismṛti*-kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ kṣinoty abhadrāṇi. We are in the abhadra, māyā . But avismṛti-kṛṣṇa-padaravindayoḥ kṣiṇoti . The thinking of māyā will gradually finish. Avismṛiti-kṛṣṇa-padaravindayoḥ kṣiṇoti . . . no, no, I said that you give these pieces, little, little. I'll do it myself. These pieces, this am root, yes. Hari-śauri: This. I'll give it out. Prabhupāda: So no vismṛti. Avismṛti. Vismṛti is ignorance. Avismṛti . All right. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . no taste, no vitamin, and still they eat. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can everything. They have canned food, canned fruits, canned . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I have seen. Eating and remnants, it is kept in . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, put in the refrigerator. And then you cook it up again with fresh foods, mixing together. Harikeśa: Is it all right if he keeps it in there and then he puts some on the plate when taking? He puts on the plate when taking? Prabhupāda: I do not know whether it is all right, but it is not all right that you eat and keep it. This is not all right. Harikeśa: He takes it from there and puts it on the plate before you eat? Yaśodānandana: He keeps the salt in a separate bowl. When you require it he will give you only as much as you require. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. Hari-śauri: That's why the bowl is there. That's what I intended to do, but I have to keep it away from the table. *Prabhupāda: The principle should be that you should not leave remnants of food. As soon as it is used, it should not be used more. (break) Otherwise it is not possible to give up. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). I am eating something not very superior, but if I get the chance of eating something superior, then I give up this inferior. So there is no question of making it vacant or void. To fill up the place with better things. So when you think of Kṛṣṇa, then you forget māyā . Otherwise you are entrapped with māyā . Why Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto ? Mām eva ye prapadyante (BG 7.14). This is wanted. As soon as you become anyābhilāṣī , then it becomes difficult. Where is that knife? Give me one am root. Cut into pieces and get . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think these are from the local . . . growing here. *Prabhupāda: That we should be very careful, that we should think of Kṛṣṇa only, not of māyā , in everything. No more strength. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām (BG 9.14). Avismṛti*-kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ kṣinoty abhadrāṇi. We are in the abhadra, māyā . But avismṛti-kṛṣṇa-padaravindayoḥ kṣiṇoti . The thinking of māyā will gradually finish. Avismṛiti-kṛṣṇa-padaravindayoḥ kṣiṇoti . . . no, no, I said that you give these pieces, little, little. I'll do it myself. These pieces, this am root, yes. Hari-śauri: This. I'll give it out. Prabhupāda: So no vismṛti. Avismṛti. Vismṛti is ignorance. Avismṛti . All right. (end) *Prabhupāda: This is idea. Mano*-rathena , by mental speculation, āsato dhāvato , they will come to materialism. As soon as they will hover over mental concoction, they will remain in the material platform, because mind is subtle form of matter. Acyutānanda: Also, in their evidences by which they base their dialectic discussions, have they regarded the Vedic scriptures? They have avoided them very conveniently. *Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of dialectic discussion. Suppose I am discussing, you are discussing something, but if I am imperfect, you are imperfect, what is the value of such discussion? That is the point. The party discussing something, whether he is perfect? If he is not perfect, then go on discussing. We first of all say that any conditioned soul is defective, and that is admitted. They say: "We are not perfect." "I think," they say: "In my opinion," they say. Never they say, the so*-called scientists, "definite." And they cannot say it. Mahāṁsa: That is like Dr. Frog's philosophy when they speculate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply speculation. So that kind of discussion, what is the value? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's always a hypothesis. Prabhupāda: If some children discuss some serious subject matter, what is the value? And they are all children in the cradle of nature, that's all. Prakṛteḥ kriya . . . therefore it is word, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni ( BG 3.27). Just like children: "Ha! Sit down here"—he has to sit down. Then where is his, I mean, freedom to discuss? Prakṛti says that "You sit down here. Don't go there." He has to accept. Then what is the value of discussion? Acyutānanda: Mainly, these Karl Marx, they were angry at the Christian church for exploiting the poor masses, and that's the reason . . . Prabhupāda: This is our . . . Acyutānanda: . . . so he has attacked. He has taken vengeance on this. *Prabhupāda: That they are doing. Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water. They have no philosophy, and they violate everything what is stated there in Bible. Now you say that, "Thou shall not kill", they say: "Thou shall not murder." They are molding. Now this homosex they are sanctioning, man*-to-man marriage. They are sanctioning abortion. Acyutānanda: Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals. Prabhupāda: Just see. Is that religion? Yaśodānandana: The simple fact that the Christians have to sprinkle water to convert means that they do not have any potency to by philosophy, to preach to them with strong philosophy. Prabhupāda: There is no . . . so, go on reading. Harikeśa: I'll backspace two sentences. (break) Acyutānanda: ". . . have allowed us to wither away these different countries, and the religionists, they are keeping all the food. They are not distributing it." Yaśodānandana: If we say that the Russia has no grains, they will say that they are big wheat producers in the southern part. They may counteract by saying: "We also produce a lot of wheat." Acyutānanda: They had to purchase wheat from America. Gurukeśa: Russia is importing its food grains now. Prabhupāda: So why they cannot produce sufficient, such a big country? Gurukeśa: And Eastern Europe, which is also communist, gets all its supplies from . . . Prabhupāda: No, what is their explanation? Russia is the biggest country. Gurukeśa: Land. Hari-śauri: The reason was that there was no rain. *Prabhupāda: Then? Then you have to depend on rain, and when we say parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ . . . hmm? And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). That means, rascal, you take one side, that ardha-kukuṭi-nyāya. Cut the chicken half, and separate the mouth—it is expensive—and keep the rear side, you get eggs. (laughter) So this is ardha-kukuṭi-nyāya . The rascal does not know that if you separate the mouth there will be no egg. Gurukeśa: They say that's depending upon nature. But they do not know who . . . *Acyutānanda: The word 'nature' should be condemned. That . . . no scientific*-minded person can say the word nature. *Prabhupāda: No, they do not know what is nature. Nature is an instrument, and there must be an operator. So that they do not know, the operator. Just like a child is thinking the motorcar is going automatically. He does not know there is a driver. The child sees that the airplane is flying. They think it is automatically going. And there is a pilot, he does not know. Similarly, these rascals, they are studying nature, but nature is an instrument only. It is being operated by Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). They have practical experience that without operator a machine cannot work. In the huge machine, how it is working unless there is operator? That they do not know. Gurukeśa: That's what they're never trying to find. Prabhupāda: Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). Find out this verse. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍha . Therefore they are all mūḍhas . So we are not going to be misled by the mūḍhas . That is not possible. We take the instruction of the topmost intelligent person, Kṛṣṇa. I think our Svarūpa Dāmodara has said that. Where is that book? He has given: "Kṛṣṇa, the topmost scientist." Yes. "Perceiving the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa." He has given this article. Acyutānanda: How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not defective like other living beings? Prabhupāda: Huh? Acyutānanda: How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not . . . Prabhupāda: He is not defective because he is speaking what he has heard from Nārada. Therefore he is not defective. Just like we are speaking—we are not perfect; *we are also ordinary human being—but people are taking that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has done wonder." What is that wonder? I am speaking Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, that's all. Acyutānanda: Like the Mormon religion in America . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, don't bring any other . . . that is . . . Acyutānanda: He claimed that an angel . . . Prabhupāda: If you accept . . . we are taking from God. Kṛṣṇa instructed Brahmā, Brahmā instructed Nārada, Nārada instructed Vyāsadeva, and therefore we are taking. Acyutānanda: So it is a novel. Like Shakespeare wrote Hamlet . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. It may be novel for you because we take you as a mūḍha . We don't give any credit. We say . . . find out this, mūdho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have this, mūḍho 'yam nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25)? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent." Prabhupāda: Yes, the fools. He does not know Kṛṣṇa; therefore he is fool. Read it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yogamāyā , and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible." Mahamsa: So who is fool is defined as avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritaḥ (BG 9.11). Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mahamsa: Who is a fool, that is defined in the other verse, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mānuṣīṁ tanum āśri . . . that one who considers Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being— mūḍha . So read the purport. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "It may be argued that since Kṛṣṇa was present on this earth and was visible by everyone, then why isn't He manifest to everyone now? But actually, He was not manifest to everyone. When Kṛṣṇa was present there were only a few people who could understand Him to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the assembly of Kurus, when Śiśupāla spoke against Kṛṣṇa being elected president of the assembly, Bhīṣma supported Him and proclaimed Him to be the Supreme God. Similarly, the Pāṇḍavas and a few others . . ." Prabhupāda: Śiśupāla could not see, although Kṛṣṇa was present there, but Bhīṣma could see. So you require special eyes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānām (BG 10.10). *Prabhupāda: Yes. Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ . . . (BS 5.38). So unless you are qualified, how you can see Kṛṣṇa? This is the point. Kṛṣṇa is there, and the rascal Śiśupāla could not see Him, but Bhīṣma could see Him. So they say, "Can you show me God?" Even God comes before you, unless you have got the qualified eyes you cannot see Him. Therefore qualification required. Premāñjana-cchurita. When your eyes will be anointed with . . . what is called? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve of love. Acyutānanda: Ointment. Prabhupāda: Savoth? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve, salve. Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve, s*-a-l-v-e. Prabhupāda: Oh, salve of love, yes. So that is required. Your . . . therefore tat- paratvena nirmalam. You have to make your senses purified; *then bhakti will begin. Otherwise it is karma . If your senses are not purified, then it is karma . There is a difference between karma and . . . Premāñjana*-cchurita . . . what is that? Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). If you think yourself that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am this," "I am that," then you are not upādhi-mukta; *therefore you cannot see Kṛṣṇa. You can see Kṛṣṇa when you are no more within these upādhis , pure soul. Brahma . . . that is real brahma*-bhūtaḥ , to understand the position of the soul and engage the soul in the service of the Lord. Then it is perfect. Go on. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Similarly, the Pāṇḍavas and a few others knew that He was the Supreme, but not everyone. He was not revealed to the nondevotees and the common men. Therefore in the Gītā Kṛṣṇa says that but for His pure devotees, all men consider Him to be like themselves. He was manifest only to His devotees as the reservoir of all pleasure. But to others, to unintelligent nondevotees, He was covered by His eternal potency. In the prayers of Kunti in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam (SB 1.8.18), it is said that the Lord is covered by the curtain of yogamāyā , and thus ordinary people cannot understand Him. Kuntī prays: 'O my Lord, You are the maintainer of the entire universe, and devotional service to You is the highest religious principle. Therefore I pray that You will also maintain me. Your transcendental form is covered by the yoga-māyā . The brahma-jyotir is the covering of the internal potency. May You kindly remove this glowing effulgence that impedes my seeing Your sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (BS 5.1), Your eternal form of bliss and knowledge.' This yogamāyā curtain is also mentioned in the Fifteenth Chapter of the Gītā . The Supreme Personality of Godhead in His transcendental form of bliss and knowledge is covered by the eternal potency of brahma-jyotir, and the less intelligent impersonalists cannot see the Supreme on this account. Also in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (SB 10.14.7) there is this prayer by Brahmā: 'O Supreme Personality of Godhead, O Supersoul, O master of all mystery, who can calculate Your potency and pastimes in this world? You are always expanding Your eternal potency, and therefore no one can understand You. Learned scientists and learned scholars can examine the atomic constitution of the material world or even the planets, but still they are unable to calculate Your energy and potency, although You are present before them.' The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa, is not only unborn, but He is avyaya , inexhaustible. His eternal form is bliss and knowledge, and His energies are all inexhaustible." Prabhupāda: So, go and discuss. (end) *Prabhupāda: This is idea. Mano*-rathena , by mental speculation, āsato dhāvato , they will come to materialism. As soon as they will hover over mental concoction, they will remain in the material platform, because mind is subtle form of matter. Acyutānanda: Also, in their evidences by which they base their dialectic discussions, have they regarded the Vedic scriptures? They have avoided them very conveniently. *Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of dialectic discussion. Suppose I am discussing, you are discussing something, but if I am imperfect, you are imperfect, what is the value of such discussion? That is the point. The party discussing something, whether he is perfect? If he is not perfect, then go on discussing. We first of all say that any conditioned soul is defective, and that is admitted. They say: "We are not perfect." "I think," they say: "In my opinion," they say. Never they say, the so*-called scientists, "definite." And they cannot say it. Mahāṁsa: That is like Dr. Frog's philosophy when they speculate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply speculation. So that kind of discussion, what is the value? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's always a hypothesis. Prabhupāda: If some children discuss some serious subject matter, what is the value? And they are all children in the cradle of nature, that's all. Prakṛteḥ kriya . . . therefore it is word, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni ( BG 3.27). Just like children: "Ha! Sit down here"—he has to sit down. Then where is his, I mean, freedom to discuss? Prakṛti says that "You sit down here. Don't go there." He has to accept. Then what is the value of discussion? Acyutānanda: Mainly, these Karl Marx, they were angry at the Christian church for exploiting the poor masses, and that's the reason . . . Prabhupāda: This is our . . . Acyutānanda: . . . so he has attacked. He has taken vengeance on this. *Prabhupāda: That they are doing. Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water. They have no philosophy, and they violate everything what is stated there in Bible. Now you say that, "Thou shall not kill", they say: "Thou shall not murder." They are molding. Now this homosex they are sanctioning, man*-to-man marriage. They are sanctioning abortion. Acyutānanda: Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals. Prabhupāda: Just see. Is that religion? Yaśodānandana: The simple fact that the Christians have to sprinkle water to convert means that they do not have any potency to by philosophy, to preach to them with strong philosophy. Prabhupāda: There is no . . . so, go on reading. Harikeśa: I'll backspace two sentences. (break) Acyutānanda: ". . . have allowed us to wither away these different countries, and the religionists, they are keeping all the food. They are not distributing it." Yaśodānandana: If we say that the Russia has no grains, they will say that they are big wheat producers in the southern part. They may counteract by saying: "We also produce a lot of wheat." Acyutānanda: They had to purchase wheat from America. Gurukeśa: Russia is importing its food grains now. Prabhupāda: So why they cannot produce sufficient, such a big country? Gurukeśa: And Eastern Europe, which is also communist, gets all its supplies from . . . Prabhupāda: No, what is their explanation? Russia is the biggest country. Gurukeśa: Land. Hari-śauri: The reason was that there was no rain. *Prabhupāda: Then? Then you have to depend on rain, and when we say parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ . . . hmm? And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). That means, rascal, you take one side, that ardha-kukuṭi-nyāya. Cut the chicken half, and separate the mouth—it is expensive—and keep the rear side, you get eggs. (laughter) So this is ardha-kukuṭi-nyāya . The rascal does not know that if you separate the mouth there will be no egg. Gurukeśa: They say that's depending upon nature. But they do not know who . . . *Acyutānanda: The word 'nature' should be condemned. That . . . no scientific*-minded person can say the word nature. *Prabhupāda: No, they do not know what is nature. Nature is an instrument, and there must be an operator. So that they do not know, the operator. Just like a child is thinking the motorcar is going automatically. He does not know there is a driver. The child sees that the airplane is flying. They think it is automatically going. And there is a pilot, he does not know. Similarly, these rascals, they are studying nature, but nature is an instrument only. It is being operated by Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). They have practical experience that without operator a machine cannot work. In the huge machine, how it is working unless there is operator? That they do not know. Gurukeśa: That's what they're never trying to find. Prabhupāda: Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). Find out this verse. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍha . Therefore they are all mūḍhas . So we are not going to be misled by the mūḍhas . That is not possible. We take the instruction of the topmost intelligent person, Kṛṣṇa. I think our Svarūpa Dāmodara has said that. Where is that book? He has given: "Kṛṣṇa, the topmost scientist." Yes. "Perceiving the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa." He has given this article. Acyutānanda: How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not defective like other living beings? Prabhupāda: Huh? Acyutānanda: How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not . . . Prabhupāda: He is not defective because he is speaking what he has heard from Nārada. Therefore he is not defective. Just like we are speaking—we are not perfect; *we are also ordinary human being—but people are taking that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has done wonder." What is that wonder? I am speaking Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, that's all. Acyutānanda: Like the Mormon religion in America . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, don't bring any other . . . that is . . . Acyutānanda: He claimed that an angel . . . Prabhupāda: If you accept . . . we are taking from God. Kṛṣṇa instructed Brahmā, Brahmā instructed Nārada, Nārada instructed Vyāsadeva, and therefore we are taking. Acyutānanda: So it is a novel. Like Shakespeare wrote Hamlet . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. It may be novel for you because we take you as a mūḍha . We don't give any credit. We say . . . find out this, mūdho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have this, mūḍho 'yam nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25)? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent." Prabhupāda: Yes, the fools. He does not know Kṛṣṇa; therefore he is fool. Read it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yogamāyā , and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible." Mahamsa: So who is fool is defined as avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritaḥ (BG 9.11). Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mahamsa: Who is a fool, that is defined in the other verse, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mānuṣīṁ tanum āśri . . . that one who considers Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being— mūḍha . So read the purport. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "It may be argued that since Kṛṣṇa was present on this earth and was visible by everyone, then why isn't He manifest to everyone now? But actually, He was not manifest to everyone. When Kṛṣṇa was present there were only a few people who could understand Him to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the assembly of Kurus, when Śiśupāla spoke against Kṛṣṇa being elected president of the assembly, Bhīṣma supported Him and proclaimed Him to be the Supreme God. Similarly, the Pāṇḍavas and a few others . . ." Prabhupāda: Śiśupāla could not see, although Kṛṣṇa was present there, but Bhīṣma could see. So you require special eyes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānām (BG 10.10). *Prabhupāda: Yes. Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ . . . (BS 5.38). So unless you are qualified, how you can see Kṛṣṇa? This is the point. Kṛṣṇa is there, and the rascal Śiśupāla could not see Him, but Bhīṣma could see Him. So they say, "Can you show me God?" Even God comes before you, unless you have got the qualified eyes you cannot see Him. Therefore qualification required. Premāñjana-cchurita. When your eyes will be anointed with . . . what is called? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve of love. Acyutānanda: Ointment. Prabhupāda: Savoth? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve, salve. Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve, s*-a-l-v-e. Prabhupāda: Oh, salve of love, yes. So that is required. Your . . . therefore tat- paratvena nirmalam. You have to make your senses purified; *then bhakti will begin. Otherwise it is karma . If your senses are not purified, then it is karma . There is a difference between karma and . . . Premāñjana*-cchurita . . . what is that? Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). If you think yourself that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am this," "I am that," then you are not upādhi-mukta; *therefore you cannot see Kṛṣṇa. You can see Kṛṣṇa when you are no more within these upādhis , pure soul. Brahma . . . that is real brahma*-bhūtaḥ , to understand the position of the soul and engage the soul in the service of the Lord. Then it is perfect. Go on. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Similarly, the Pāṇḍavas and a few others knew that He was the Supreme, but not everyone. He was not revealed to the nondevotees and the common men. Therefore in the Gītā Kṛṣṇa says that but for His pure devotees, all men consider Him to be like themselves. He was manifest only to His devotees as the reservoir of all pleasure. But to others, to unintelligent nondevotees, He was covered by His eternal potency. In the prayers of Kunti in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam (SB 1.8.18), it is said that the Lord is covered by the curtain of yogamāyā , and thus ordinary people cannot understand Him. Kuntī prays: 'O my Lord, You are the maintainer of the entire universe, and devotional service to You is the highest religious principle. Therefore I pray that You will also maintain me. Your transcendental form is covered by the yoga-māyā . The brahma-jyotir is the covering of the internal potency. May You kindly remove this glowing effulgence that impedes my seeing Your sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (BS 5.1), Your eternal form of bliss and knowledge.' This yogamāyā curtain is also mentioned in the Fifteenth Chapter of the Gītā . The Supreme Personality of Godhead in His transcendental form of bliss and knowledge is covered by the eternal potency of brahma-jyotir, and the less intelligent impersonalists cannot see the Supreme on this account. Also in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (SB 10.14.7) there is this prayer by Brahmā: 'O Supreme Personality of Godhead, O Supersoul, O master of all mystery, who can calculate Your potency and pastimes in this world? You are always expanding Your eternal potency, and therefore no one can understand You. Learned scientists and learned scholars can examine the atomic constitution of the material world or even the planets, but still they are unable to calculate Your energy and potency, although You are present before them.' The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa, is not only unborn, but He is avyaya , inexhaustible. His eternal form is bliss and knowledge, and His energies are all inexhaustible." Prabhupāda: So, go and discuss. (end) *Prabhupāda: So, of course, those days also not costly, 1945. I was paying only 200 rupees. Now you cannot get one room. So because it was famous, that ghost*-hauntly house, nobody was taking it. So I took it. (laughs) I don’t care for ghost. Actually there was ghost. And all the servants, they said: "Bābājī, therefore retire." They met. But I was chanting. (break) (man heard in another room ringing bell and chanting mantras ) He is going to chant? Bhavānanda: I think he washed his hands. This is his father here. (break) (end) *Prabhupāda: So, of course, those days also not costly, 1945. I was paying only 200 rupees. Now you cannot get one room. So because it was famous, that ghost*-hauntly house, nobody was taking it. So I took it. (laughs) I don’t care for ghost. Actually there was ghost. And all the servants, they said: "Bābājī, therefore retire." They met. But I was chanting. (break) (man heard in another room ringing bell and chanting mantras ) He is going to chant? Bhavānanda: I think he washed his hands. This is his father here. (break) (end) Prabhupāda: If he does not read *Bhāgavatam* , then he remains a rascal. Hari-śauri: Anything apart from the Vedas is not really knowledge. *Prabhupāda: No. May be some fragmental knowledge, but if one wants full knowledge in life, then he must read Bhāgavatam . Bhagavad*-gītā is the preliminary ABCD, and then let him read Bhāgavatam . (break) . . . venture, newspaper. (break) They have been taught like that. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ ( SB 7.5.31). They are passing as great leader for giving men wrong direction and spoil the life. He cannot save himself, and he can spoil himself very nicely. Hari-śauri: People's minds are so flickering. There's so much disturbance. *Prabhupāda: The mind is the first creation for material enjoyment. From the mind, senses are created: five senses for knowledge*-gathering and five senses for working, and five airs within the body. In this way the mind and fifteen. This is called ṣoḍāśa upacāra , sixteen. And then the ingredients, pañca-mahā-bhūta . Then intelligence, ahaṅkāra , false ego. These twenty-four, combination. And ātmā, jīva , and then Kṛṣṇa—twenty-six. The twenty-six combination is this body, mind, self, soul, Supersoul, everything. (pause) Prabhupāda: So, I am ready. Hari-śauri: I think it's just a little early yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Just a little early. It's still dark. I think ten minutes should be all right. Has this been used? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: All right. I'll take it and wash it. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . is in ignorance. Combination of matter and soul, moving animals. Some of them are standing as trees and plant, and some of them are moving. Where is the science to study? What is your value of knowledge? Hmm? If they do not know the fundamental things, then what is the value of their knowledge? Simply observation, superficial, externally. There is good scope. They are receiving these books. We should take chance of preaching this Bhāgavatam , and the classes should be held especially . . . no, the religious classes are already there. Let them study Bhāgavatam , Bhagavad*-gītā . And they will accept it. They are not fools. Simply we have to introduce it. The Western people, they are not fools, but misguided. So you take the charge of guiding them; then Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will be successful. They will appreciate, they will take it up and reform, and their life will be successful. And if they utilize their intelligence how to reduce population and kill child within the womb and "There is no soul in the womb. When they come out then the soul becomes . . ." What is this nonsense? Unless there is soul, how it becomes manifest? Hari-śauri: It's obvious. If the body is growing within the womb, there must be life there. Prabhupāda: The same process is going on from the very beginning. A body is formed, and it develops. The child is born . . . the same process is going on. How do you say there is no soul? If there is no soul, how it has developed within the womb? Such rascals, they are passing on as big scientists. What is the reason they don't believe that there is no soul? Harikeśa: They have really no argument. Prabhupāda: Just see. All dogmatic. All dogmatic foolishness they are propagating, and it is going on in the name of vijñāna , science. Hari-śauri: If they admitted the existence . . . *Prabhupāda: Vijñāna should be enunciated, vigata*-jñāna. Vigata . . . you understand vigata ? Vigata means lost. So vijñāna , you can make two meanings. Viśiṣṭa-jñāna. Viśiṣṭa, vi means . . . viśiṣṭa means full, explained knowledge. You can make this meaning. And another meaning you can do. Vi means vigata , "lost." So vigata-jñāna . Their vijñāna means vigata-jñāna, lost of all knowledge. So that is the word given in Bhagavad-gītā , māyayāprahṛta-jñānaḥ . This is vijñāna . You can explain in this way also. Māyayāpa . . . māyā has taken away their knowledge, and that is going on as vijñāna , science. Māyā has made them rascal, and they are presenting themselves as the man of advanced knowledge. A rascal is representing himself as advanced in knowledge. That is the defect of Kali-yuga. Hari-śauri: Advanced demoniac knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Advanced demon. Actually they are advanced demons, asura, asurī*-bhāvam āśritaḥ , being infected with the contamination of atheism, godlessness. ( japa ) Hari-śauri: They're actually very expert at avoiding the real issues. Prabhupāda: That is . . . a child can also do that. That is not expert. A child can advance in foolishness without any guidance. If the child touches fire, and if somebody says: "This is advancement of knowledge," then imagine what is the position. Similarly, all these rascals, they are endeavoring. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. He endeavored all through how to become immortal, which is impossible. But he advanced in that foolishness. Hiraṇyakaśipu was such a big demon, his only idea was that, "The devatās , they attack us sometimes. But now I shall attack them and plunder them. But because I am now practically immortal, what they will do? They cannot kill me. So I will go on with my demonic activities, and they cannot do anything." This is his foolishness. He did not know that he's the greatest foolishness that he was trying to become immortal. When it was said by Brahmā that, "No, no, it is not possible," still, he expected that, "I shall become immortal." Brahmā flatly said: "No, no, this is not possible. I am not immortal. How can I give you immortality?" But he would not hear even Brahmā. He thought that, "In an indirect way I shall befool this man, Brahmā." "All right, sir, then give me this benediction." "What is that?" "I'll not die in the land." "All right." "Not in the water." "Yes." "Not in the air." "No, yes." So he thought that "These three things finished. Then where shall I die? There are three things only—land, water, sky. So he has given me benediction I shall not die anywhere of these three. So I have cheated now." And then, "I shall not die in daytime." "Yes." "I shall not die in nighttime." But māyā dictated that there is another space or another place between day and night. (laughs) That he forgot. That is called sandhyā . That is accepted. Hari-śauri: Twilight. Prabhupāda: But he forgot that. And Kṛṣṇa is more intelligent. He . . . Hiraṇyakaśipu was not killed in daytime or nighttime. He was killed in the sandhyā . And so far land, sky and water is concerned, that also was played with tricks, that He killed him on the lap. You cannot say it is land; you cannot say it is sky; you cannot say it is water. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind that His devotee, Brahmā, has given him this benediction . . . without touching all those points. Hiraṇyakaśipu could not accuse Brahmā that, "Sir, you have cheated me." "No. Whatever you wanted, I have given you. You have cheated yourself. You do not know that your knowledge is imperfect. You cannot make it perfect. So that is your folly. But so far I am concerned, whatever you wanted, I said, 'Yes. Yes. Yes.' But I said also that, 'In spite of all this, you'll never live.' That is not possible. But, you fool, you did not take care of it. So in spite of cunningness, you remained a fool. You thought that you are very intelligent, cunning: 'I am now fully equipped; nobody can kill me.' But I said that it is not possible. I never cheated you. You cannot say that I have cheated you." Harikeśa: It's just like in the law. They try to make the law so perfect that no one can get around it. But always there is some very smart lawyer who finds a loophole. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Big lawyer means to find out fault with the present law. That is big lawyer. (break) . . . to be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . (laughs) But these rascals are trying to be more intelligent. Therefore they are called rascals, fools, mūḍha . Harikeśa: Moghāśā . *Prabhupāda: Ah. Moghāśā mogha*-karmaṇo mogha-jñāna-vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). (break) . . . Kṛṣṇa says simple thing, "You surrender unto Me. You'll get all protection." "No, no. That is not possible. I must do according to my own whims. Why shall I surrender?" "All right, go on. I'll give you facility for executing your whims. You'll get it. You do. Try your . . ." This is going on. Kṛṣṇa is giving good advice; he'll not accept it. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind, "All right, you do in your own way. I shall give you all facility." This is going on. That facility is māyā —his mind and māyā . He is desiring. That mind is also given by māyā , so that he can punish him very severely. So māyā has given as mind: "Now you go on desiring. After desiring, desiring, I will give you facility." Harikeśa: Mind is an agent of punishment. Prabhupāda: Yes, this material mind. You see a madman: he is also acting in his mind. The mind is polluted; he is acting differently. Mind is there, but it is covered by some infection. Therefore a madman is thinking this way, that way, this way, that way. That's all. Hari-śauri: Constant anxiety. Prabhupāda: Useless. Killing himself. Hari-śauri: Sometimes a person who goes mad, they have to put them in a padded cell so that they don't harm themselves. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise he will create disadvantage to others. This is the cell—whole material world. You keep yourself within this cell and go on with your madness of mind. Still, Vedic instruction is there that if you do this way, then you go to that planet. If you do this way, then you go to here. Still, there is good. But within that, Kṛṣṇa is saying, mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25): "But you can come to Me also." But he will not take that instruction. Hari-śauri: Coming to Kṛṣṇa means they have to give up all their own personal desires. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is there; simply we have to accept it. If we don't accept it, we suffer. What can be done? If you accept the path of going to hell in spite of higher authorities' instruction, then who can save me? That is going on. Hari-śauri: Rascal. Prabhupāda: He is thinking he has become very intelligent that he can deceive God, deceive spiritual master and be happy. (laughs) He does not know that he can neither deceive God or His representative, guru . That is not possible. But he is thinking like that. And he is being put into suffering condition. Just like ordinary thieves and rogues, they think, "I am deceiving government." But government has got so many agents that he will be arrested. But this sinful government may not be so expert, but how he can deceive the government of Kṛṣṇa? That is not possible. Harikeśa: There's undercover agents in everybody. Prabhupāda: Everywhere, every direction. Hari-śauri: The land, the sky, the . . . Prabhupāda: Everything. Hari-śauri: . . . sun, moon. Everything is witness. Prabhupāda: They are bearing the witness. And especially He is sitting within the heart of everyone, īśvaraḥ sarva . . . how can you deceive Him? Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa knows more about what's going on than we do. *Prabhupāda: Anumantā upadṛṣṭā. Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). How these rascals think that, "I can deceive God"? *Harikeśa: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna (BG 7.15). Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mayācyuta . *Harikeśa: Vigata. Vigata*-jñāna . *Prabhupāda: Vigata*-jñāna, yes. Vijñāna . Hari-śauri: Like children playing, they think that they've become a king or this or that, and they're completely absorbed. Prabhupāda: Why children? The children—the father also. Harikeśa: I think they're all ready. (end) Prabhupāda: If he does not read *Bhāgavatam* , then he remains a rascal. Hari-śauri: Anything apart from the Vedas is not really knowledge. *Prabhupāda: No. May be some fragmental knowledge, but if one wants full knowledge in life, then he must read Bhāgavatam . Bhagavad*-gītā is the preliminary ABCD, and then let him read Bhāgavatam . (break) . . . venture, newspaper. (break) They have been taught like that. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ ( SB 7.5.31). They are passing as great leader for giving men wrong direction and spoil the life. He cannot save himself, and he can spoil himself very nicely. Hari-śauri: People's minds are so flickering. There's so much disturbance. *Prabhupāda: The mind is the first creation for material enjoyment. From the mind, senses are created: five senses for knowledge*-gathering and five senses for working, and five airs within the body. In this way the mind and fifteen. This is called ṣoḍāśa upacāra , sixteen. And then the ingredients, pañca-mahā-bhūta . Then intelligence, ahaṅkāra , false ego. These twenty-four, combination. And ātmā, jīva , and then Kṛṣṇa—twenty-six. The twenty-six combination is this body, mind, self, soul, Supersoul, everything. (pause) Prabhupāda: So, I am ready. Hari-śauri: I think it's just a little early yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Just a little early. It's still dark. I think ten minutes should be all right. Has this been used? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: All right. I'll take it and wash it. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . is in ignorance. Combination of matter and soul, moving animals. Some of them are standing as trees and plant, and some of them are moving. Where is the science to study? What is your value of knowledge? Hmm? If they do not know the fundamental things, then what is the value of their knowledge? Simply observation, superficial, externally. There is good scope. They are receiving these books. We should take chance of preaching this Bhāgavatam , and the classes should be held especially . . . no, the religious classes are already there. Let them study Bhāgavatam , Bhagavad*-gītā . And they will accept it. They are not fools. Simply we have to introduce it. The Western people, they are not fools, but misguided. So you take the charge of guiding them; then Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will be successful. They will appreciate, they will take it up and reform, and their life will be successful. And if they utilize their intelligence how to reduce population and kill child within the womb and "There is no soul in the womb. When they come out then the soul becomes . . ." What is this nonsense? Unless there is soul, how it becomes manifest? Hari-śauri: It's obvious. If the body is growing within the womb, there must be life there. Prabhupāda: The same process is going on from the very beginning. A body is formed, and it develops. The child is born . . . the same process is going on. How do you say there is no soul? If there is no soul, how it has developed within the womb? Such rascals, they are passing on as big scientists. What is the reason they don't believe that there is no soul? Harikeśa: They have really no argument. Prabhupāda: Just see. All dogmatic. All dogmatic foolishness they are propagating, and it is going on in the name of vijñāna , science. Hari-śauri: If they admitted the existence . . . *Prabhupāda: Vijñāna should be enunciated, vigata*-jñāna. Vigata . . . you understand vigata ? Vigata means lost. So vijñāna , you can make two meanings. Viśiṣṭa-jñāna. Viśiṣṭa, vi means . . . viśiṣṭa means full, explained knowledge. You can make this meaning. And another meaning you can do. Vi means vigata , "lost." So vigata-jñāna . Their vijñāna means vigata-jñāna, lost of all knowledge. So that is the word given in Bhagavad-gītā , māyayāprahṛta-jñānaḥ . This is vijñāna . You can explain in this way also. Māyayāpa . . . māyā has taken away their knowledge, and that is going on as vijñāna , science. Māyā has made them rascal, and they are presenting themselves as the man of advanced knowledge. A rascal is representing himself as advanced in knowledge. That is the defect of Kali-yuga. Hari-śauri: Advanced demoniac knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Advanced demon. Actually they are advanced demons, asura, asurī*-bhāvam āśritaḥ , being infected with the contamination of atheism, godlessness. ( japa ) Hari-śauri: They're actually very expert at avoiding the real issues. Prabhupāda: That is . . . a child can also do that. That is not expert. A child can advance in foolishness without any guidance. If the child touches fire, and if somebody says: "This is advancement of knowledge," then imagine what is the position. Similarly, all these rascals, they are endeavoring. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. He endeavored all through how to become immortal, which is impossible. But he advanced in that foolishness. Hiraṇyakaśipu was such a big demon, his only idea was that, "The devatās , they attack us sometimes. But now I shall attack them and plunder them. But because I am now practically immortal, what they will do? They cannot kill me. So I will go on with my demonic activities, and they cannot do anything." This is his foolishness. He did not know that he's the greatest foolishness that he was trying to become immortal. When it was said by Brahmā that, "No, no, it is not possible," still, he expected that, "I shall become immortal." Brahmā flatly said: "No, no, this is not possible. I am not immortal. How can I give you immortality?" But he would not hear even Brahmā. He thought that, "In an indirect way I shall befool this man, Brahmā." "All right, sir, then give me this benediction." "What is that?" "I'll not die in the land." "All right." "Not in the water." "Yes." "Not in the air." "No, yes." So he thought that "These three things finished. Then where shall I die? There are three things only—land, water, sky. So he has given me benediction I shall not die anywhere of these three. So I have cheated now." And then, "I shall not die in daytime." "Yes." "I shall not die in nighttime." But māyā dictated that there is another space or another place between day and night. (laughs) That he forgot. That is called sandhyā . That is accepted. Hari-śauri: Twilight. Prabhupāda: But he forgot that. And Kṛṣṇa is more intelligent. He . . . Hiraṇyakaśipu was not killed in daytime or nighttime. He was killed in the sandhyā . And so far land, sky and water is concerned, that also was played with tricks, that He killed him on the lap. You cannot say it is land; you cannot say it is sky; you cannot say it is water. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind that His devotee, Brahmā, has given him this benediction . . . without touching all those points. Hiraṇyakaśipu could not accuse Brahmā that, "Sir, you have cheated me." "No. Whatever you wanted, I have given you. You have cheated yourself. You do not know that your knowledge is imperfect. You cannot make it perfect. So that is your folly. But so far I am concerned, whatever you wanted, I said, 'Yes. Yes. Yes.' But I said also that, 'In spite of all this, you'll never live.' That is not possible. But, you fool, you did not take care of it. So in spite of cunningness, you remained a fool. You thought that you are very intelligent, cunning: 'I am now fully equipped; nobody can kill me.' But I said that it is not possible. I never cheated you. You cannot say that I have cheated you." Harikeśa: It's just like in the law. They try to make the law so perfect that no one can get around it. But always there is some very smart lawyer who finds a loophole. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Big lawyer means to find out fault with the present law. That is big lawyer. (break) . . . to be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . (laughs) But these rascals are trying to be more intelligent. Therefore they are called rascals, fools, mūḍha . Harikeśa: Moghāśā . *Prabhupāda: Ah. Moghāśā mogha*-karmaṇo mogha-jñāna-vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). (break) . . . Kṛṣṇa says simple thing, "You surrender unto Me. You'll get all protection." "No, no. That is not possible. I must do according to my own whims. Why shall I surrender?" "All right, go on. I'll give you facility for executing your whims. You'll get it. You do. Try your . . ." This is going on. Kṛṣṇa is giving good advice; he'll not accept it. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind, "All right, you do in your own way. I shall give you all facility." This is going on. That facility is māyā —his mind and māyā . He is desiring. That mind is also given by māyā , so that he can punish him very severely. So māyā has given as mind: "Now you go on desiring. After desiring, desiring, I will give you facility." Harikeśa: Mind is an agent of punishment. Prabhupāda: Yes, this material mind. You see a madman: he is also acting in his mind. The mind is polluted; he is acting differently. Mind is there, but it is covered by some infection. Therefore a madman is thinking this way, that way, this way, that way. That's all. Hari-śauri: Constant anxiety. Prabhupāda: Useless. Killing himself. Hari-śauri: Sometimes a person who goes mad, they have to put them in a padded cell so that they don't harm themselves. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise he will create disadvantage to others. This is the cell—whole material world. You keep yourself within this cell and go on with your madness of mind. Still, Vedic instruction is there that if you do this way, then you go to that planet. If you do this way, then you go to here. Still, there is good. But within that, Kṛṣṇa is saying, mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25): "But you can come to Me also." But he will not take that instruction. Hari-śauri: Coming to Kṛṣṇa means they have to give up all their own personal desires. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is there; simply we have to accept it. If we don't accept it, we suffer. What can be done? If you accept the path of going to hell in spite of higher authorities' instruction, then who can save me? That is going on. Hari-śauri: Rascal. Prabhupāda: He is thinking he has become very intelligent that he can deceive God, deceive spiritual master and be happy. (laughs) He does not know that he can neither deceive God or His representative, guru . That is not possible. But he is thinking like that. And he is being put into suffering condition. Just like ordinary thieves and rogues, they think, "I am deceiving government." But government has got so many agents that he will be arrested. But this sinful government may not be so expert, but how he can deceive the government of Kṛṣṇa? That is not possible. Harikeśa: There's undercover agents in everybody. Prabhupāda: Everywhere, every direction. Hari-śauri: The land, the sky, the . . . Prabhupāda: Everything. Hari-śauri: . . . sun, moon. Everything is witness. Prabhupāda: They are bearing the witness. And especially He is sitting within the heart of everyone, īśvaraḥ sarva . . . how can you deceive Him? Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa knows more about what's going on than we do. *Prabhupāda: Anumantā upadṛṣṭā. Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). How these rascals think that, "I can deceive God"? *Harikeśa: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna (BG 7.15). Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mayācyuta . *Harikeśa: Vigata. Vigata*-jñāna . *Prabhupāda: Vigata*-jñāna, yes. Vijñāna . Hari-śauri: Like children playing, they think that they've become a king or this or that, and they're completely absorbed. Prabhupāda: Why children? The children—the father also. Harikeśa: I think they're all ready. (end) *Devotee (1): ". . . Sanat Kumāras were going to Vaikuṇṭha to visit Lord Viṣṇu. They were stopped at the door by the doorkeepers, Jaya and Vijaya. But specifically, the Supreme Lord cannot be seen by ordinary eyes. But He can now become visible to the eyesight of the Kumāras. Another significant word is samādhi*-vākyam . Meditators who are very fortunate see the Viṣṇu form of the Lord within their hearts by following the yoga process. But to see Him eye to eye is a different matter. It is only possible for pure devotees. The Kumāras therefore, before seeing the Lord . . ." (break) Bhavānanda: . . . āratika ? Prabhupāda: No. No. That . . . Bhavānanda: They have kīrtanas . . . Prabhupāda: Going on. Bhavānanda: Yes. (break) Devotee (1): They could see the Lord face to face? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhruva Mahārāja saw face to face. (break) Sudama: . . . factured this in Hawaii. (break) *Prabhupāda: So then the chance is lost. Repeatedly Kṛṣṇa is saying: "You give up all this habit. Just become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Sarva*-dharmān . . ." Nobody will hear. "Why shall I not?" There is a Bengali song, cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo keno dekhbo nā : "If it is gratifying to my eyes, why shall I not see a beautiful woman? Why you are forbidding me?" Cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo : "It is pleasing to my eyes. Why you are forbidding me?" This is going on. Cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo. If there is little happiness, don't mind it is flickering; *it will go on. The Carvaka Muni: ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet : "Some way or other prepare foodstuff with ghee." "I have no money." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā : "Just take. Beg, borrow, steal, bring ghee and prepare nice foodstuff and eat, and enjoy life." This is the material world. But śāstra says: "No, no, no. Don't do this. This is the hog's business. Tapo . Just try to go, follow austerity." Even those who are so*-called advanced in knowledge— karmī, jñānī, yogī —they are also after sense gratification. Karmī is openly after sense gratification, and jñānī is subtly, "No, no. This kind of . . ." Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . "Now I shall enjoy Brahman. I shall become God." This is another side, the same sense enjoyment. Because I have failed becoming a minister or becoming a king, becoming a leader, becoming . . . I have failed; now I shall become God. Same sense grati . . . they cannot understand that this is also sense gratification. "I am not . . . no more satisfied by becoming a little minister and king and . . . no. I shall become God. Why shall I . . . by becoming king or minister I beg to the goddess of fortune, 'Mother, give me a little money.' Why shall I beg? I shall enjoy her. I become Nārāyaṇa." Same disease. A yogī also, after mystic power they want to show magic: "I shall make like this, and gold will be there. People will worship me as I am God." Do that. People do that. If you play something wonderful they will accept you: "Oh, you are God." But he does not know that he cannot become God. That is not possible. Although he gets little fractional authority to puzzle others that he has become God . . . because people are fools, if he can produce little gold like this, they will be immediately amazed, "Oh, how powerful he is." They have no capacity to understand. If God is meant for making gold, why not worship the God who has made already millions of gold mines? Unlimited. There is no limit. Why this paltry god? They have no such knowledge. They are amazed. Hari-śauri: They have to go to so much trouble as well just to achieve that little flickering . . . Prabhupāda: Very, very great trouble. You have not seen the yogīs ? Of course, there are some . . . (break) But still, they have to undergo very severe processes for achieving this yogic power. And a devotee, they kick it that, "What is this nonsense?" (chuckles) That is devotee. "What is this nonsense? What shall I do by producing gold?" And I never tried for making gold, but is there any scarcity of gold? I never tried for how to make gold. That Sai Baba is showing some magic power. What of the Maharshi? Maha . . . Harikeśa: Maharishi. Prabhupāda: He was also after some yogic power. Harikeśa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: You were with him. You do not know? "The transcendental meditation—you will get this, you will get that." He is advertising in that . . . Hari-śauri: All material opulence. Harikeśa: Ultimately you will become God. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the attempt. Hari-śauri: And in the meantime, you can enjoy material world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: They never said anything more than you'll just get good sex life and good health. Prabhupāda: That is . . . becoming God means the same—money and sex. That's all. Harikeśa: Wouldn't it be handy, though, to be able to fly around without having to use airplanes? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: I mean, if you had some mystic opulence like being able to fly. Prabhupāda: Yes, the yogīs can do that. Harikeśa: Wouldn't that be handy? Wouldn't a devotee . . . couldn't a devotee utilize that? Prabhupāda: What is the use? What is the use? Harikeśa: Well, instead of taking airplanes here and there, you could just . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the difference? If by practicing severe yogic means you fly, the birds are also flying. They are flying without aeroplane. Does it mean that it has become very great? There are many birds, garuḍa bird. They can fly from one planet to another. Just like small birds, they fly from one tree to another, take rest again—so they fly from this planet to another, take rest, again another. What is the value of your aeroplane? You cannot go to another planet. There are birds, they catch up elephants and take it away for eating. Does it mean he has become . . . it has become God? There are Siddhaloka planets where the people can go without any aeroplane from one planet to another, Siddhaloka. They have got all yogic siddhi automatically, by birth. Just like we cannot fly, but a small bird, a small fly, from the birth it can fly. There are so many. So similarly, by birth they have got all yogic siddhis . This is called Siddhaloka. There are different varieties of planets, different varieties of perfection. Just like here also, I cannot dive into the water. A small fish can dive. I cannot fly in the sky, but a small sparrow, it can go from here, here, immediately. So does it mean he is very advanced in yogic power because he can fly? You are proposing that. Huh? Nothing is any big achievement. The big achievement is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted. Not these things. These things . . . you cannot do; I can do. I cannot do; he can do. What is the greatness? Harikeśa: It seems harder to control the tongue than to fly. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: It seems harder to control the tongue than to fly. Prabhupāda: Fly? Harikeśa: It takes more austerity to control one's tongue by chanting and taking prasādam . *Prabhupāda: Even that is not achievement. To control the senses, that is not very great achievement. The great achievement: how we have become a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So that will include everything. You haven't got to prepare gold, but if you want gold, Kṛṣṇa will send you. So why should I try for that and waste my time? Let me become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is required. Kṛṣṇa . . . yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham ( BG 9.22): "I shall give you all protection. I shall supply whatever you want," Kṛṣṇa said. So I shall do such thing when Kṛṣṇa will be my protector and supplier and everything. He is all-powerful, so He will do that—if I require. I don't require anything. I . . . simply I have to become a sincere, pure devotee. But if I require something, it will come from Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I try for it? A rich man's son, he doesn't do anything for earning money. He knows, "My father is rich, and as soon as I require money, he will give me. So why shall I become a big, big businessman and become a karmī ?" Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upāry adhaḥ (SB 1.5.18). You try for that thing which you did not achieve so long, even if you have traveled from different species of life, different planets. For that thing you try, which you have not achieved. Simply you have become implicated. Hari-śauri: Why bother with something that's available to a hog? Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Why bother with something that is available even to the hogs? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, even if you achieve such thing, achievement, so where is the guarantee that you'll . . . it will stay? The so*-called achievements for sense gratification, that means body. The body is always troublesome. That day I was asking, "Did you taste the Birla's eggplant?" You said: "No, I could not take it," due to the body. So even things are there, the body will not allow you. There are many rich men, they have got money, but they cannot eat anything. Hari-śauri: That John Paul Getty is the richest man in the world, and they asked him, "What would be your wish if you could have anything?" He said: "I just want to be healthy." He said, "I've got so much money, but I'm not healthy." Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many. There was a big, rich man in Calcutta, Raja Jyotindramana Ṭhākura. So just like you give me so many things, so he was king, he was getting more supply, but he had no appetite. So one day he was given so many things—because it was routine. So one coolie was going on the street, taking a fish and chanting very pleasingly. So he said that, "Instead of becoming Raja Jyotindramana Ṭhākura, if I could have been a coolie like that, at least I could enjoy by eating. And what is this? I have got everything, but I cannot eat." He regretted, "I would have become a coolie like that instead of becoming a . . ." Hari-śauri: Everybody's mad after getting some big position, and then when they get it they find out it's even worse than where they started. Prabhupāda: Because the body does not allow. So all, from all sides. We were discussing Prahlāda Mahārāja's . . . how he is experienced of this material way of life. It is all useless. So by following this mahājana devotees we can make our life perfect. Nothing is wanted except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfection of life. That is instruction of . . . na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarim (CC Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4). No, we don't want. Then what do you want? Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatad bhaktir ahaitukī . Without any motive let me become a sincere devotee of Lord. I don't want. That is perfection. Disgusted. Ar' nare bapu . No more. Everything useless. (pause) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Some smell is coming? No? Harikeśa: Your transcendental senses are far beyond . . . Prabhupāda: (door closes) Hmm. Automatically locked. Harikeśa: The ghosts will be here too. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: The ghosts, they will be here too. (end) *Devotee (1): ". . . Sanat Kumāras were going to Vaikuṇṭha to visit Lord Viṣṇu. They were stopped at the door by the doorkeepers, Jaya and Vijaya. But specifically, the Supreme Lord cannot be seen by ordinary eyes. But He can now become visible to the eyesight of the Kumāras. Another significant word is samādhi*-vākyam . Meditators who are very fortunate see the Viṣṇu form of the Lord within their hearts by following the yoga process. But to see Him eye to eye is a different matter. It is only possible for pure devotees. The Kumāras therefore, before seeing the Lord . . ." (break) Bhavānanda: . . . āratika ? Prabhupāda: No. No. That . . . Bhavānanda: They have kīrtanas . . . Prabhupāda: Going on. Bhavānanda: Yes. (break) Devotee (1): They could see the Lord face to face? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhruva Mahārāja saw face to face. (break) Sudama: . . . factured this in Hawaii. (break) *Prabhupāda: So then the chance is lost. Repeatedly Kṛṣṇa is saying: "You give up all this habit. Just become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Sarva*-dharmān . . ." Nobody will hear. "Why shall I not?" There is a Bengali song, cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo keno dekhbo nā : "If it is gratifying to my eyes, why shall I not see a beautiful woman? Why you are forbidding me?" Cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo : "It is pleasing to my eyes. Why you are forbidding me?" This is going on. Cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo. If there is little happiness, don't mind it is flickering; *it will go on. The Carvaka Muni: ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet : "Some way or other prepare foodstuff with ghee." "I have no money." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā : "Just take. Beg, borrow, steal, bring ghee and prepare nice foodstuff and eat, and enjoy life." This is the material world. But śāstra says: "No, no, no. Don't do this. This is the hog's business. Tapo . Just try to go, follow austerity." Even those who are so*-called advanced in knowledge— karmī, jñānī, yogī —they are also after sense gratification. Karmī is openly after sense gratification, and jñānī is subtly, "No, no. This kind of . . ." Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . "Now I shall enjoy Brahman. I shall become God." This is another side, the same sense enjoyment. Because I have failed becoming a minister or becoming a king, becoming a leader, becoming . . . I have failed; now I shall become God. Same sense grati . . . they cannot understand that this is also sense gratification. "I am not . . . no more satisfied by becoming a little minister and king and . . . no. I shall become God. Why shall I . . . by becoming king or minister I beg to the goddess of fortune, 'Mother, give me a little money.' Why shall I beg? I shall enjoy her. I become Nārāyaṇa." Same disease. A yogī also, after mystic power they want to show magic: "I shall make like this, and gold will be there. People will worship me as I am God." Do that. People do that. If you play something wonderful they will accept you: "Oh, you are God." But he does not know that he cannot become God. That is not possible. Although he gets little fractional authority to puzzle others that he has become God . . . because people are fools, if he can produce little gold like this, they will be immediately amazed, "Oh, how powerful he is." They have no capacity to understand. If God is meant for making gold, why not worship the God who has made already millions of gold mines? Unlimited. There is no limit. Why this paltry god? They have no such knowledge. They are amazed. Hari-śauri: They have to go to so much trouble as well just to achieve that little flickering . . . Prabhupāda: Very, very great trouble. You have not seen the yogīs ? Of course, there are some . . . (break) But still, they have to undergo very severe processes for achieving this yogic power. And a devotee, they kick it that, "What is this nonsense?" (chuckles) That is devotee. "What is this nonsense? What shall I do by producing gold?" And I never tried for making gold, but is there any scarcity of gold? I never tried for how to make gold. That Sai Baba is showing some magic power. What of the Maharshi? Maha . . . Harikeśa: Maharishi. Prabhupāda: He was also after some yogic power. Harikeśa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: You were with him. You do not know? "The transcendental meditation—you will get this, you will get that." He is advertising in that . . . Hari-śauri: All material opulence. Harikeśa: Ultimately you will become God. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the attempt. Hari-śauri: And in the meantime, you can enjoy material world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: They never said anything more than you'll just get good sex life and good health. Prabhupāda: That is . . . becoming God means the same—money and sex. That's all. Harikeśa: Wouldn't it be handy, though, to be able to fly around without having to use airplanes? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: I mean, if you had some mystic opulence like being able to fly. Prabhupāda: Yes, the yogīs can do that. Harikeśa: Wouldn't that be handy? Wouldn't a devotee . . . couldn't a devotee utilize that? Prabhupāda: What is the use? What is the use? Harikeśa: Well, instead of taking airplanes here and there, you could just . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the difference? If by practicing severe yogic means you fly, the birds are also flying. They are flying without aeroplane. Does it mean that it has become very great? There are many birds, garuḍa bird. They can fly from one planet to another. Just like small birds, they fly from one tree to another, take rest again—so they fly from this planet to another, take rest, again another. What is the value of your aeroplane? You cannot go to another planet. There are birds, they catch up elephants and take it away for eating. Does it mean he has become . . . it has become God? There are Siddhaloka planets where the people can go without any aeroplane from one planet to another, Siddhaloka. They have got all yogic siddhi automatically, by birth. Just like we cannot fly, but a small bird, a small fly, from the birth it can fly. There are so many. So similarly, by birth they have got all yogic siddhis . This is called Siddhaloka. There are different varieties of planets, different varieties of perfection. Just like here also, I cannot dive into the water. A small fish can dive. I cannot fly in the sky, but a small sparrow, it can go from here, here, immediately. So does it mean he is very advanced in yogic power because he can fly? You are proposing that. Huh? Nothing is any big achievement. The big achievement is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted. Not these things. These things . . . you cannot do; I can do. I cannot do; he can do. What is the greatness? Harikeśa: It seems harder to control the tongue than to fly. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: It seems harder to control the tongue than to fly. Prabhupāda: Fly? Harikeśa: It takes more austerity to control one's tongue by chanting and taking prasādam . *Prabhupāda: Even that is not achievement. To control the senses, that is not very great achievement. The great achievement: how we have become a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So that will include everything. You haven't got to prepare gold, but if you want gold, Kṛṣṇa will send you. So why should I try for that and waste my time? Let me become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is required. Kṛṣṇa . . . yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham ( BG 9.22): "I shall give you all protection. I shall supply whatever you want," Kṛṣṇa said. So I shall do such thing when Kṛṣṇa will be my protector and supplier and everything. He is all-powerful, so He will do that—if I require. I don't require anything. I . . . simply I have to become a sincere, pure devotee. But if I require something, it will come from Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I try for it? A rich man's son, he doesn't do anything for earning money. He knows, "My father is rich, and as soon as I require money, he will give me. So why shall I become a big, big businessman and become a karmī ?" Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upāry adhaḥ (SB 1.5.18). You try for that thing which you did not achieve so long, even if you have traveled from different species of life, different planets. For that thing you try, which you have not achieved. Simply you have become implicated. Hari-śauri: Why bother with something that's available to a hog? Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Why bother with something that is available even to the hogs? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, even if you achieve such thing, achievement, so where is the guarantee that you'll . . . it will stay? The so*-called achievements for sense gratification, that means body. The body is always troublesome. That day I was asking, "Did you taste the Birla's eggplant?" You said: "No, I could not take it," due to the body. So even things are there, the body will not allow you. There are many rich men, they have got money, but they cannot eat anything. Hari-śauri: That John Paul Getty is the richest man in the world, and they asked him, "What would be your wish if you could have anything?" He said: "I just want to be healthy." He said, "I've got so much money, but I'm not healthy." Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many. There was a big, rich man in Calcutta, Raja Jyotindramana Ṭhākura. So just like you give me so many things, so he was king, he was getting more supply, but he had no appetite. So one day he was given so many things—because it was routine. So one coolie was going on the street, taking a fish and chanting very pleasingly. So he said that, "Instead of becoming Raja Jyotindramana Ṭhākura, if I could have been a coolie like that, at least I could enjoy by eating. And what is this? I have got everything, but I cannot eat." He regretted, "I would have become a coolie like that instead of becoming a . . ." Hari-śauri: Everybody's mad after getting some big position, and then when they get it they find out it's even worse than where they started. Prabhupāda: Because the body does not allow. So all, from all sides. We were discussing Prahlāda Mahārāja's . . . how he is experienced of this material way of life. It is all useless. So by following this mahājana devotees we can make our life perfect. Nothing is wanted except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfection of life. That is instruction of . . . na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarim (CC Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4). No, we don't want. Then what do you want? Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatad bhaktir ahaitukī . Without any motive let me become a sincere devotee of Lord. I don't want. That is perfection. Disgusted. Ar' nare bapu . No more. Everything useless. (pause) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Some smell is coming? No? Harikeśa: Your transcendental senses are far beyond . . . Prabhupāda: (door closes) Hmm. Automatically locked. Harikeśa: The ghosts will be here too. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: The ghosts, they will be here too. (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . Viśvanātha Cakravartī has discussed. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so easy: man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto , four principles. Why people do not take to it? (background talking) Hmm? What is that? Harikeśa: He just wanted to know if someone was allowed to come for darśana . Prabhupāda: Yes, let them come. This time, five to seven? (conchshell sounds) Indian guest: Uni ekjan amader . . . (He is one of our . . .) (break) *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-bhāgavata-dharma is for the person who is not jealous. Paramo nirmatśarāṇāṁ ( SB 1.1.2). This very word is used in the beginning that, "This bhāgavata-dharma is meant for persons who is not jealous." Otherwise the material whole world is full of jealousy. Even during the time of Kṛṣṇa there was Paundra, out of jealousy. And there were so many. Beginning from Kṛṣṇa's birth the asuras , they were jealous: "How to kill Kṛṣṇa." This is the whole mat . . . even in the higher planetary system the jealousy is there, asuras and the devas , devāsura . So our business is, as instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā . This jealousy will go on. Therefore one has to learn how to tolerate jealousy. Kīrtaniyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). If one wants to push on this saṅkīrtana movement . . . Prabhupāda . . . we are insignificant creature. So many persons. You cannot avoid it. The best way is to learn how to tolerate. That is very nice. Otherwise Caitanya Mahāprabhu not have said taror api sahiṣṇunā . That is the best. So we are not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, neither like Prabhupāda, and we shall have to learn to tolerate. Indian guest: Kintu dekhen Prabhupader samay kato biruddhe . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (But see during the time of Prabhupāda (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur) many anti . . .) Prabhupāda: Er yodi biradhita korte pare . . . (If they can protest him . . .) Indian guest: Hobei . . . (This will happen . . .) Prabhupāda: Ta amar biruddhe korbe ei ar . . . eto kichui na. (This is not a big thing if they also protest me . . .) *Indian guest: (indistinct) . . . yara prabhur seva korchen, tader biruddhe hobei. Ora negative contain . . . ba ekta apnar anti party na thakle . . . anya keu na thakle alocana seta . . . (indistinct) . . . tara bujhbe . . . (those who are serving the Lord, people will be against them. They will find out negative content . . . or if there won't, it will be an anti*-party . . . if there won't be different people, then how will that be discussed . . . (indistinct) . . . they will understand . . .) *Prabhupāda Na, bujhuk na bujhuk, ami ye*-sob ya kaj korte beriyechi, keu bujhbe na bujhbe, yay na kono . . . ami . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (No, they understand or not, I went out to do that work, whether they understand or not . . . I . . .) Indian guest: Tobe amar mone hoy, onekei bujhechilen, yara bujhchen na ekhon tara svikar korchen na. Tao tara dukhche, eta amader anander bisay. (But I think many people have understood, who they have understood, they are not admitting. But still they are joining the movement. This is our happiness.) *Prabhupāda: It is clearly written in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta that kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nāhe kṛṣṇa nāma pracāraṇa (CC Antya 7.11). So even they have no common sense, what can be done? Indian guest: Eta svikar korte hobe, Krsna sakti . . . (We have to admit, that is the strength of Kṛṣṇa . . .) *Prabhupāda: No, no, this formula, that this is something new in the history of the world, and still they are jealous, what is this? They are finding fault. In Vṛndāvana, Nṛsiṁha*-vallabha Gosvāmī, you know? He comes to me. He says: "So many people are jealous upon you." I say that, "First of all you create something like me, then you become jealous." Seta khamata nei. (They don't have that quality.) Indian guest: Ami asha kori Maharaj, khub alpo diner madhye sob dekhben apnar anugami hobe. Ami serakam kichu . . . (Mahārāja, I hope they will start following you soon. I have seen something like . . .) *Prabhupāda: Sei janye ami cup*-cap thaki . . . (That's why I remain silent . . .) Indian guest: Ager theke onek sob paribartan hoyeche. Ami ebong khub bhalo bhabei ei katha bolechi ye, ekhon to Maharajer . . . (Many things have changed from before. Simply I told them that, now Mahārāja is . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, se karuk na karuk, amar . . . eto yai hok, ami nije nijei, ascarya hoye yai . . . na ami to kono jealousy mone kori na . . . (No, they take it or not, I . . . whatever, sometimes I get astonished myself . . .) Indian guest: Tate Prabhupād . . . apnar gurudev santusta hoben. (Then Prabhupāda . . . your Gurudeva will be happy.) Prabhupāda: Tabe tara ye dictate kore oita amar . . . tara dictate korbe keno? (But they dictate to me, that's I . . . why do they dictate?) First of all let them become like me. Then . . . Samane, samane bandhutta hobe. Ye baro se dictate korbe, ar ye choto se manyata korbe eta hocche niom. Se samanatao nei, ar unnatao nei tahole dictate kore keno? Ami ki korechi ta diye oder kaj ki? (Equal people will make friends. Seniors will dictate and the junior will obey, this is the rule. But they are not equal to me and they are not superior to me then why do they dictate me?) Indian guest: Seta ami bujhte perechi. (I understand that.) Prabhupāda: Tahole dictate korte yay keno? Eita tader murkhata. Dictate korbe ke? Ye baro. (So why do they come to dictate? This is their foolishness. Who will dictate? Who is superior?) The superior, he will dictate. And yes, equal, they will live like friends. And those who are junior, they should follow and obey. This is the Vaiṣṇava niyama . So those who are neither equal nor higher, how they can dictate? That is their mistake. Either first of all become higher than him—then you dictate—or you be equal with him—then you suggest. You are lower and you want to dictate? What is this nonsense? Bujhte perechen? Eta hocche niyam. Niyamtai jane na. (Do you understand? This is the rule. They even don't know the rules.) By standard, one who is lower, they want to dictate. Indian guest: Ekhane emon abasta, apni to bollen ye, Prabhupad ke ami to apnar ei darshan . . . (indistinct) . . . tarpar amra amader baktabya rakhchi apnar sammandhye, yara buddhi jibi . . . (Here the situation is, you say this, "I have seen Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . after that we have to present a speech on you," those who are intelligent . . .) (loud conchshell) Bās . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian guest: Radharaman M.L.A . . . Radharaman, amader ei Nabadwip . . . (indistinct) . . . royeche, ami congress office bollam, apni asben Jayapataka Maharajke niye gelam okhane . . . (indistinct) . . . apnader bollam ye apni milita hoben ISKCON hacche Prabhupāder . . . (indistinct) . . . ese bollo ye hya ami yabo, kintu kichu lok apatti korlo ye photo rakhte parbe na . . . kintu er madhye . . . apnara . . . Maharaj tomakei pasanda kore na Jayapataka Maharaj, oi apnar Radharaman, ora apatti korlo ye photo kora yabe na. Kintu amar iccha ye dujane ek jaygay ekta photor madhye thaklam. Yai hok se kadin yebe ananda . . . Radharaman ke bollam ye, bhai tumi amake ektu kol dao, yara namer janya sarvasya bhog, bilas tyag kore yader bhoger madhyei janma ebong ei katha yini biswas koraichen yini pascatya jagate e baro sangatik byapar, eta ekta . . . (indistinct) . . . ekhane kichu janbar ba amader bojhbar ache. Ami sir ke niye gelam aslen na. (Radharaman M.L.A . . . Radharaman, in our Nabadwip . . . (indistinct) . . . have, I will go with Jayapataka Mahārāja to the congress office and told them that you will come . . . (indistinct) . . . I told them to join ISKCON, this is Prabhupāda's . . . (indistinct) . . . he told me that, "Yes I will go," but some people refused us to take a photo . . . but meanwhile . . . you . . . that Radharaman doesn't like Jayapataka Mahārāja, that's why they have an objection that a photo can't be taken. But my wish is if we both are together in a single photo. Then I can feel happy someday . . . I told Radharaman to give a place for those who have left everything for this holy name, their sense gratification and all, actually they were born in sense gratification and the person makes them believe in that. That is a very big thing . . . (indistinct) . . . we have many things to know from him. I thought to bring him here but he didn't come.) (break) *Prabhupāda: They may be very big visioner. . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . tarpar yakhan baire ase, ya icche kor, ya icche kor, ya icche kor. Gala ta jariye dhore. Thik sei rakam. Eikhane te bose bhoger borai korle ki hobe? Ar ye Caitanya Mahaprabhu katha ta pracar karo jagate. (after that when they come outside, they do whatever they can. By hugging them. Just like that. Is this okay to feel proud from here? Frost, you have to preach the massage of Caitanya Mahāprabhu,) Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). Eisob asche sob prthivi theke. (They are coming from all over the world.) A pakkā Vaiṣṇava like you, to find out faults, what is this? Rādhārāṇī is . . . kache loke approach kore eita tar gun hocche ye, Rādhārāṇīr kache keu yodi approach . . . Rādhārāṇīr ekta . . . ki bolen? Rādhārāṇī kache approach kore keno loke? Jaya Radhe! Rādhārāṇī ekbar ektu recommendation kore dey, kaj hoye yay. To tini sobi to demand korlen. Khub bhalo bhakta athaca dosh darshi. Radharani mone koren . . . tini janei na keu dosh korte pare. (People approach Rādhārāṇī because she has a special quality, that if someone approaches Rādhārāṇī . . . Rādhārāṇī is . . . what do you say about this? Why do people approach Rādhārāṇī? They say "Jaya Radhe!", because if Rādhārāṇī gives a recommendation once, then the work will be done very easily. So he has demanded everything. He is a good devotee as well as fault seeker. Rādhārāṇī doesn't think that people have any mistakes.) They have not united, they have disunited. And here, practically you see all religions, all nations, all persons, all philosophy. Everything is there. Era ye sob America theke eseche, eder ke ki kichu ghush diye ana hoyeche? (They all came here from America, were they brought in with a bribe?) They have come with their life . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . nicche (taking.) Indian guest: Or yodi bola hoy . . . (indistinct) . . . ei ghush diye deoa hobe . . . (If we told them . . . (indistinct) . . . will give a bribe . . .) Prabhupāda: Ederke bole CIA! (They are called CIA.) Indian guest: Ei holo eder gun. (These are the qualities of them.) Prabhupāda: CIA! Bhakta hoye ar ca paryanta bidi paryanta chere diye, eikhane nece tara . . . (indistinct) . . . lagiye dicche. (They have left tea, bīḍī and everything after becoming a bhakta and they are dancing . . . (indistinct) . . . they are giving.) You know less common sense they have. They haven't got even common sense. Indian guest: Ami apnar sambaraner byabasta kori Krsnanagare, er age kichu lok mane . . . ora to ekta biradhita korbe . . . (I arranged something to welcome you in Krishnanagar, before that, some people means . . . those who will protest . . .) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, so all the money should be given to us. The money actually belongs to Kṛṣṇa. You, by tricks, you are holding it. (knock) Yes? Asun, asun. Bhalo acho? (Please come in. How are you?) Indian men: Bhalo achi. (I am fine.) Prabhupāda: Open this. Open. Indian men: Apnar anumati anusare ami government . . . (According to your permission the government . . .) (break) (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . Viśvanātha Cakravartī has discussed. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so easy: man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto , four principles. Why people do not take to it? (background talking) Hmm? What is that? Harikeśa: He just wanted to know if someone was allowed to come for darśana . Prabhupāda: Yes, let them come. This time, five to seven? (conchshell sounds) Indian guest: Uni ekjan amader . . . (He is one of our . . .) (break) *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-bhāgavata-dharma is for the person who is not jealous. Paramo nirmatśarāṇāṁ ( SB 1.1.2). This very word is used in the beginning that, "This bhāgavata-dharma is meant for persons who is not jealous." Otherwise the material whole world is full of jealousy. Even during the time of Kṛṣṇa there was Paundra, out of jealousy. And there were so many. Beginning from Kṛṣṇa's birth the asuras , they were jealous: "How to kill Kṛṣṇa." This is the whole mat . . . even in the higher planetary system the jealousy is there, asuras and the devas , devāsura . So our business is, as instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā . This jealousy will go on. Therefore one has to learn how to tolerate jealousy. Kīrtaniyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). If one wants to push on this saṅkīrtana movement . . . Prabhupāda . . . we are insignificant creature. So many persons. You cannot avoid it. The best way is to learn how to tolerate. That is very nice. Otherwise Caitanya Mahāprabhu not have said taror api sahiṣṇunā . That is the best. So we are not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, neither like Prabhupāda, and we shall have to learn to tolerate. Indian guest: Kintu dekhen Prabhupader samay kato biruddhe . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (But see during the time of Prabhupāda (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur) many anti . . .) Prabhupāda: Er yodi biradhita korte pare . . . (If they can protest him . . .) Indian guest: Hobei . . . (This will happen . . .) Prabhupāda: Ta amar biruddhe korbe ei ar . . . eto kichui na. (This is not a big thing if they also protest me . . .) *Indian guest: (indistinct) . . . yara prabhur seva korchen, tader biruddhe hobei. Ora negative contain . . . ba ekta apnar anti party na thakle . . . anya keu na thakle alocana seta . . . (indistinct) . . . tara bujhbe . . . (those who are serving the Lord, people will be against them. They will find out negative content . . . or if there won't, it will be an anti*-party . . . if there won't be different people, then how will that be discussed . . . (indistinct) . . . they will understand . . .) *Prabhupāda Na, bujhuk na bujhuk, ami ye*-sob ya kaj korte beriyechi, keu bujhbe na bujhbe, yay na kono . . . ami . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (No, they understand or not, I went out to do that work, whether they understand or not . . . I . . .) Indian guest: Tobe amar mone hoy, onekei bujhechilen, yara bujhchen na ekhon tara svikar korchen na. Tao tara dukhche, eta amader anander bisay. (But I think many people have understood, who they have understood, they are not admitting. But still they are joining the movement. This is our happiness.) *Prabhupāda: It is clearly written in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta that kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nāhe kṛṣṇa nāma pracāraṇa (CC Antya 7.11). So even they have no common sense, what can be done? Indian guest: Eta svikar korte hobe, Krsna sakti . . . (We have to admit, that is the strength of Kṛṣṇa . . .) *Prabhupāda: No, no, this formula, that this is something new in the history of the world, and still they are jealous, what is this? They are finding fault. In Vṛndāvana, Nṛsiṁha*-vallabha Gosvāmī, you know? He comes to me. He says: "So many people are jealous upon you." I say that, "First of all you create something like me, then you become jealous." Seta khamata nei. (They don't have that quality.) Indian guest: Ami asha kori Maharaj, khub alpo diner madhye sob dekhben apnar anugami hobe. Ami serakam kichu . . . (Mahārāja, I hope they will start following you soon. I have seen something like . . .) *Prabhupāda: Sei janye ami cup*-cap thaki . . . (That's why I remain silent . . .) Indian guest: Ager theke onek sob paribartan hoyeche. Ami ebong khub bhalo bhabei ei katha bolechi ye, ekhon to Maharajer . . . (Many things have changed from before. Simply I told them that, now Mahārāja is . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, se karuk na karuk, amar . . . eto yai hok, ami nije nijei, ascarya hoye yai . . . na ami to kono jealousy mone kori na . . . (No, they take it or not, I . . . whatever, sometimes I get astonished myself . . .) Indian guest: Tate Prabhupād . . . apnar gurudev santusta hoben. (Then Prabhupāda . . . your Gurudeva will be happy.) Prabhupāda: Tabe tara ye dictate kore oita amar . . . tara dictate korbe keno? (But they dictate to me, that's I . . . why do they dictate?) First of all let them become like me. Then . . . Samane, samane bandhutta hobe. Ye baro se dictate korbe, ar ye choto se manyata korbe eta hocche niom. Se samanatao nei, ar unnatao nei tahole dictate kore keno? Ami ki korechi ta diye oder kaj ki? (Equal people will make friends. Seniors will dictate and the junior will obey, this is the rule. But they are not equal to me and they are not superior to me then why do they dictate me?) Indian guest: Seta ami bujhte perechi. (I understand that.) Prabhupāda: Tahole dictate korte yay keno? Eita tader murkhata. Dictate korbe ke? Ye baro. (So why do they come to dictate? This is their foolishness. Who will dictate? Who is superior?) The superior, he will dictate. And yes, equal, they will live like friends. And those who are junior, they should follow and obey. This is the Vaiṣṇava niyama . So those who are neither equal nor higher, how they can dictate? That is their mistake. Either first of all become higher than him—then you dictate—or you be equal with him—then you suggest. You are lower and you want to dictate? What is this nonsense? Bujhte perechen? Eta hocche niyam. Niyamtai jane na. (Do you understand? This is the rule. They even don't know the rules.) By standard, one who is lower, they want to dictate. Indian guest: Ekhane emon abasta, apni to bollen ye, Prabhupad ke ami to apnar ei darshan . . . (indistinct) . . . tarpar amra amader baktabya rakhchi apnar sammandhye, yara buddhi jibi . . . (Here the situation is, you say this, "I have seen Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . after that we have to present a speech on you," those who are intelligent . . .) (loud conchshell) Bās . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian guest: Radharaman M.L.A . . . Radharaman, amader ei Nabadwip . . . (indistinct) . . . royeche, ami congress office bollam, apni asben Jayapataka Maharajke niye gelam okhane . . . (indistinct) . . . apnader bollam ye apni milita hoben ISKCON hacche Prabhupāder . . . (indistinct) . . . ese bollo ye hya ami yabo, kintu kichu lok apatti korlo ye photo rakhte parbe na . . . kintu er madhye . . . apnara . . . Maharaj tomakei pasanda kore na Jayapataka Maharaj, oi apnar Radharaman, ora apatti korlo ye photo kora yabe na. Kintu amar iccha ye dujane ek jaygay ekta photor madhye thaklam. Yai hok se kadin yebe ananda . . . Radharaman ke bollam ye, bhai tumi amake ektu kol dao, yara namer janya sarvasya bhog, bilas tyag kore yader bhoger madhyei janma ebong ei katha yini biswas koraichen yini pascatya jagate e baro sangatik byapar, eta ekta . . . (indistinct) . . . ekhane kichu janbar ba amader bojhbar ache. Ami sir ke niye gelam aslen na. (Radharaman M.L.A . . . Radharaman, in our Nabadwip . . . (indistinct) . . . have, I will go with Jayapataka Mahārāja to the congress office and told them that you will come . . . (indistinct) . . . I told them to join ISKCON, this is Prabhupāda's . . . (indistinct) . . . he told me that, "Yes I will go," but some people refused us to take a photo . . . but meanwhile . . . you . . . that Radharaman doesn't like Jayapataka Mahārāja, that's why they have an objection that a photo can't be taken. But my wish is if we both are together in a single photo. Then I can feel happy someday . . . I told Radharaman to give a place for those who have left everything for this holy name, their sense gratification and all, actually they were born in sense gratification and the person makes them believe in that. That is a very big thing . . . (indistinct) . . . we have many things to know from him. I thought to bring him here but he didn't come.) (break) *Prabhupāda: They may be very big visioner. . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . tarpar yakhan baire ase, ya icche kor, ya icche kor, ya icche kor. Gala ta jariye dhore. Thik sei rakam. Eikhane te bose bhoger borai korle ki hobe? Ar ye Caitanya Mahaprabhu katha ta pracar karo jagate. (after that when they come outside, they do whatever they can. By hugging them. Just like that. Is this okay to feel proud from here? Frost, you have to preach the massage of Caitanya Mahāprabhu,) Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). Eisob asche sob prthivi theke. (They are coming from all over the world.) A pakkā Vaiṣṇava like you, to find out faults, what is this? Rādhārāṇī is . . . kache loke approach kore eita tar gun hocche ye, Rādhārāṇīr kache keu yodi approach . . . Rādhārāṇīr ekta . . . ki bolen? Rādhārāṇī kache approach kore keno loke? Jaya Radhe! Rādhārāṇī ekbar ektu recommendation kore dey, kaj hoye yay. To tini sobi to demand korlen. Khub bhalo bhakta athaca dosh darshi. Radharani mone koren . . . tini janei na keu dosh korte pare. (People approach Rādhārāṇī because she has a special quality, that if someone approaches Rādhārāṇī . . . Rādhārāṇī is . . . what do you say about this? Why do people approach Rādhārāṇī? They say "Jaya Radhe!", because if Rādhārāṇī gives a recommendation once, then the work will be done very easily. So he has demanded everything. He is a good devotee as well as fault seeker. Rādhārāṇī doesn't think that people have any mistakes.) They have not united, they have disunited. And here, practically you see all religions, all nations, all persons, all philosophy. Everything is there. Era ye sob America theke eseche, eder ke ki kichu ghush diye ana hoyeche? (They all came here from America, were they brought in with a bribe?) They have come with their life . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . nicche (taking.) Indian guest: Or yodi bola hoy . . . (indistinct) . . . ei ghush diye deoa hobe . . . (If we told them . . . (indistinct) . . . will give a bribe . . .) Prabhupāda: Ederke bole CIA! (They are called CIA.) Indian guest: Ei holo eder gun. (These are the qualities of them.) Prabhupāda: CIA! Bhakta hoye ar ca paryanta bidi paryanta chere diye, eikhane nece tara . . . (indistinct) . . . lagiye dicche. (They have left tea, bīḍī and everything after becoming a bhakta and they are dancing . . . (indistinct) . . . they are giving.) You know less common sense they have. They haven't got even common sense. Indian guest: Ami apnar sambaraner byabasta kori Krsnanagare, er age kichu lok mane . . . ora to ekta biradhita korbe . . . (I arranged something to welcome you in Krishnanagar, before that, some people means . . . those who will protest . . .) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, so all the money should be given to us. The money actually belongs to Kṛṣṇa. You, by tricks, you are holding it. (knock) Yes? Asun, asun. Bhalo acho? (Please come in. How are you?) Indian men: Bhalo achi. (I am fine.) Prabhupāda: Open this. Open. Indian men: Apnar anumati anusare ami government . . . (According to your permission the government . . .) (break) (end) Prabhupāda: The stricture of nature's law, that is science. Is it not? Scientific effort. They will never be able to do so, but still, they are . . . to stop death, birth, death, old age, is very major problem, but even in small things you cannot do anything. Everywhere you are dependent. And still, they are very much proud that they are advancing in scientific knowledge so that they can overcome the stringent laws of nature and so on, so on. Durāśaya . It is called durāśaya , hope which will never be fulfilled. Is it not? Durāśaya. Śāstra, Bhāgavata , says, durāśaya . This is their foolishness. They are expecting something which will never be fulfilled. Therefore śāstra says durāśaya . Now what they are doing about the moon planet? Harikeśa: They've forgotten about it. Sudāmā: Now they're trying for Mars. Prabhupāda: Just see. Hele dāntavān keuṭe. A man was trying to capture snake. So there are snakes, hele . There are many snakes; they have no poison, especially the water snake, the hele . So hele dāntavān keuṭe . Keuṭe means cobra. So one cannot capture the poisonless snake, and he is attempting to capture cobra. So they could not go to the moon planet, which is only 1,600,000 miles above the sun, and they are going to Venus, which is far, far away, still. How many miles the Venus is situated? They have committed some mistake. Harikeśa: Yes. Well, they say here it's 600,000 yojanas , which makes 48,000,000 miles—no—480,000,000 miles above the sun. Prabhupāda: So they cannot reach sun . . . they are trying to go above the sun. (someone enters) Asun. Basun. (Please come. Sit down.) Indian guest: Hare Krsna. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Basun. Kothyeke elen? (Sit down. Where are you from?) Indian guest: Ami . . . ei (I am . . . this) . . . (indistinct) (break) It is giving a quotation from the *Vedas*. How to act on Vedic principles, that is called smṛti . Sometimes the original law is explained by one lawyer in detail. So that detailed explanation is like smṛti , and the original law is śruti . In that we have to bathe. Smṛti means which is explaining śruti to understand easily. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we should never think that smṛti is an interpretation. Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not inter . . . it is explanation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like sometimes the smārtas , they argue that if you quote smṛti , it is not as good as śruti . Prabhupāda: Yes. But smṛti . . . just like the Māyāvādīs. They do not accept, because their interpretation of Veda is different. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. So they say that smṛti is an interpretation. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't accept Bhagavad*-gītā , many of them. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what is our answer to such persons? Prabhupāda: We have got our own ācāryas . If you don't accept, I don't accept you. That is my . . . what can be done? Harikeśa: Madhvācārya made a commentary on the *Gītā* where he quoted a Sanskrit verse. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Harikeśa: He quoted a Vedic verse for every Bhagavad*-gītā verse to prove that Bhagavad-gītā is śruti . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Madhvācārya? Harikeśa: Or somebody like that. Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya. Harikeśa: Who? Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has quoted. Harikeśa: Rāmānujācārya. *Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has given quotation from śruti for every verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . (pause) (devotee enters and offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: So read from the . . . Bhavānanda: It starts off with big print: "Ācāryadeva Tridandi Swami Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Mahārāja. All learned men are aware that in the dark days of India when the Hindu religion was in great danger . . ." Prabhupāda: (laughs) This is nonsense. *Bhavānanda: ". . . our Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was born at Śrī Māyāpur, destined to remove the dark clouds which had overshadowed true religious thinking by traveling alone on foot throughout the length and breadth of India. Preaching His gospel of love, He brought about a religious upheaval which put an end to all religious conflicts and suicidal vociferous tendencies. The benign influence of His love philosophy made the whole of India a spiritually united cultural domain. Soul*-enrapturing kīrtana music was organized from one end of the country to the other. A neo-humanism based on love regarded as the highest objective of human existence held sway. The difference between man and man was forgotten, and the fundamental unity of human nature and human destiny was stressed upon. But in the early nineteenth century, true religion was at a very low ebb due to lack of proper publicity of literature and also for want of great ācāryas to propagate the cults in their true aspect. It was a dark period for the Caitanya or Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism when it fell from its highest transcendentalism to the lowest possible degradation because of so many abuses and evil practices which crept into it through plenty of pseudo-followers. Vaiṣṇavism was almost abandoned by the educated section of people. Its literature was hardly read. Kīrtana was looked upon not as a form of prayer but as a means of gratification by people of loose morals. Most of the Vaiṣṇava followers of the period lost their high standard of morality, their loving aestheticism, their intellectual superiority and devotional fervor, which were the main characteristics of the previous masters. The influx of Western ideas came in, and English educated people fell into the hands of Christians. Fortunately, at that time, we got a great Vaiṣṇava savant and scholar, Ṭhākura Kedāranātha Bhaktivinoda, who wrote widely and successfully created an interest among the educated public in Vaiṣṇava religion and literature. His discovery of Śrīdhāma Māyāpur, the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, which was so long hidden from the public eye, gave a new impetus to its propagation. The age of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism set in. Thereafter, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Ṭhākura took hold of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism with a vow to propagate it in its true perspective, even as it was practiced with unparalleled and unprecedented transcendentalism by Śrī Rūpa and Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmīs, followers of Śrī Caitanya. In proper time, he got a great personality who readily shouldered the . . ." Prabhupāda: Just see now: "He got a great personality." He is that personality. He'll also prove that. Bhavānanda: ". . . who shouldered the burden of the mighty mission of Śrīla Sarasvatī Ṭhākura. That great personality is President Ācāryadeva, His Holiness Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktivilāsa . . ." Prabhupāda: But you . . . jaya morena apne morol . This great personality, why he is not accepted by other disciples? How he becames a great personality? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. If one proclaims himself to be the king and no one . . . Prabhupāda: No one accepts him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of king? Prabhupāda: That is called in Bengali, jaya mane apna morol. Morol means the leader of the society, of the village. Here there are morol . So in the village nobody cares for him, and he declares that, "I am morol ." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That person is insane. Prabhupāda: Nobody cares for him, and he is thinking that, "Great personality." Where is his greatness? Who knows him? Just see. So he is making a plan to declare himself a great personality. Bhavānanda: It goes on to explain why he is such a great personality. Prabhupāda: So why explain? If he is great personality, everyone should know. Why he is trying to explain? What is the use of explanation? If a great personality is unknown, and he has to be known by explanatory notes, then how he is great personality? Bhavānanda: Just like the President of the United States. He doesn't have to say, "I am the President." Everyone knows. Prabhupāda: Yes. Go on reading. Bhavānanda: ". . . Tīrtha Mahārāja, who was then known as guru - preṣṭha , "Most dear to his guru ," and also known to the disciples of Śrīla Sarasvatī Ṭhākura as Kuñjada, giver of shelter. In all the missionary works and the management of the maṭhas , Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja was the right hand of his Gurudeva. By his constant, unstinted service rendered to Śrīla Prabhupāda, whose most intimate disciple he was, he almost became a counterpart of that great saint." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. This is not . . . "Counterpart." Jumping. Trying to equal . . . Prabhupāda: So those who are not accepting him, so they are all fools. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is very bad, Prabhupāda. It says he wanted to be . . . he almost became counterpart. That means he is trying to become equal or superior to guru . Prabhupāda: Superior. Bhavānanda: In this first sentence, superior; that Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, his whole mission was dependent upon this great personality, Tīrtha Mahārāja. Not that Bhaktisiddhānta was a great personality, but that the great personality is Tīrtha Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: He has written like that? Bhavānanda: He said: "In proper time he got a great personality who readily shouldered the burden of the mighty mission of Sarasvatī Ṭhākura." That's implying that he is the one responsible. Prabhupāda: He says . . . his impression is like that. Then? Bhavānanda: "In all preaching work, everybody felt the sober but encouraging hand of Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja. Śrīla Prabhupāda never did anything without consulting him first or without his consent. So all the desires for future work of Prabhupāda Śrīla Sarasvatī . . ." Prabhupāda: He does not mention his name. He says . . . all right, go . . . his sannyāsī name is . . . all right. Then? *Bhavānanda: "All the desires for future work of Śrīla Prabhupāda Sarasvatī Ṭhākura used to come to the present ācāryadeva as an impulse first, which he translated into action at once. In spite of a hundred hindrances from so*-called religionists with a vision of a future worldwide mission, Śrīla Prabhupāda established Śrī Caitanya Maṭha at Śrī Māyāpur, the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, on the Phālguna Pūrṇimā day, the seventh March, 1918, which was a red-letter day in the history of theistic religious revival in this age. He started a countrywide movement to carry the message of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to every door. In a hectic manner, within a couple of years, he preached Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism throughout India and sent disciples to England, Germany, and other parts of Europe and Burma to preach the message of Śrī Caitanya and establish sixty-four branches under the name of Śrī Gauḍīya Maṭha throughout India and abroad, and a vast literature flowed through his versatile pen. The large number of publications in different languages and the vigorous missionary activities and door-to-door preaching by the sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs of the Maṭha, who held meetings in the remotest villages, duly spread Śrī Caitanya's teachings, which today are followed in every part of India. His songs are sung in chorus, and a great interest is created among the intelligentsia of India. After having become the president of the institution . . ." In this last paragraph, all of these activities of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, there is no mention of his name. His whole mission, there is actually no mention of his name, that he is the one who has done it. "After having become the president of the institution, Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja has been traveling throughout India and Pakistan preaching the devotional cult of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and he has come in contact with many savants of present India who are all struck with reverent admiration for his deep knowledge of philosophy. Dr. Rādhākamal Mukherjee, vice- chancellor of Lucknow University, remarks, 'There is no more distinguished and erudite interpreter of Śrī Caitanya's Vaiṣṇava thought than His Holiness Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja.' " Prabhupāda: And what is Rādhākamal Mukherjee? *Bhavānanda: " 'He has been a prolific writer and commentator and has traveled and discoursed widely in different parts of India. His profound illuminative discourses have everywhere created a genuine interest in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and in the dynamic religious movement he represents.' There may not be any doubt among the well*-informed people that the Śrī Caitanya Maṭha, with its branches, Śrī Gauḍīya Maṭhas, throughout India and abroad, have been propagating the greatest religion, which, from a realistic point of view, has helped to build up a true civilization. Today, due to the activities of Śrī Caitanya Maṭha, a spiritual thirst has been created, especially among the deep-thinking and educated people of the world, for people from all over the world are coming to this institution to learn and follow the great religion of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and to understand the practical Indian way of life. Today the headquarter extends over a mile, with beautiful temples, yet standing in an atmosphere of absorbing silence of meditation and worship, surrounded on all sides by emerald green paddy fields and the Ganges flowing hard by, far from the madding crowd's strife and strain. Māyāpur is now an enchanted place, the abode of peace. The atmosphere of the place is charming. The chanting of the holy name of Hari all day and night takes one to a celestial place." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't hear the chanting from their maṭha all day and night. Bhavānanda: No, it's only from here. "It is more heavenly than heaven itself. It is the sacred Vṛndāvana of Bengal, hallowed by the dancing steps of the Lord, and its air is purified by His noble call to prayer. Whoever pays a visit to her will leave her with regret, and those who have not yet visited the place will carry their regrets unto death." Prabhupāda: So he is making some propaganda that he is the . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, just like in the woods the jackal is always crying that he is the king, but who cares for him? What is his qualification? Prabhupāda: So do we require to . . .? There is no use. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, our answer is all of these books. Prabhupāda: That's all. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our answer is twenty*-four-hour kīrtana, prasādam distribution . . . Prabhupāda: And you keep it very carefully in the file. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should answer him by our preaching, by our vigorous preaching. Bhavānanda: Many people must be asking him, "What about this ISKCON maṭha ?" That's why he is . . . it's driving him mad. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's speaking against us all the time. He never says anything good about us. Prabhupāda: No, he is very envious about us. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I think now he must have come to the conclusion that there is no way to stop us, so he is thinking how he can . . . I have a hunch he is thinking how he can become connected in some way to get some benefit. That's why he is sending this man, this maṭha commander. Because he sees now there is no way he can stop us, so he is thinking, "How can I connect somehow with them? Because they have so much money, and they're going to be doing so many big things, I must establish a connection with them." Prabhupāda: So he wants to establish connection with us and . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think so. Prabhupāda: . . . and describe that he has . . . just like Mādhava Mahārāja also attempted. This is the attempt. So, what we have to do in this connection? Let them do whatever nonsense they want. We shall do our own business. And we have no business to propagate that we are making . . . people already know us all over the world. So . . . but suppose if he makes an attempt to mix with us so that he can take advantage, his main policy is that we may go there. That is his . . . because if we do not go, then all their propaganda makes him not very important if we go there . . . if we do not go there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why does he depend upon our going there to become important? Prabhupāda: Because he is visualizing that by our propaganda throughout the whole world, people will come here. That he has already seen. And if we do not go there, then he becomes insignificant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "If we don't" means if anyone from all over the world who comes . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Bhavānanda: People are attracted by the Westerners coming to the maṭha . So if we're up at that maṭha , any of us, and then they say: "Just see." They say in Bengali, "Just see. They are coming. To see our Guru Mahārāja, they are coming." Prabhupāda: That was the policy of Mādhava Mahārāja and Śrīdhara Mahārāja that, "Although Bhaktivedanta Swami is propagating throughout, he is subordinate to us, under our instruction." So all these three . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A real dream world they are living in. Bhavānanda: Here they have even included our temple in their domain. "The headquarters extends for over a mile, with beautiful temples and paddy fields." When we put up our wall, then they will not be able to include us. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what we should . . . the point is that no matter how much they press for any kind of mixing, our first point is, "You come here and visit us." And he'll never do that. Never do that. And we should not . . . we already invited him twice, so we don't have to give any more invitation. We should simply say verbally, "Let Tīrtha Mahārāja come here, as we have come so many times. Then we can speak about some kind of cooperation." Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: I remember, Śrīla . . . you walked there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: From here you walked all the way . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twice Prabhupāda has visited and personally requested, and he won't come here. And now . . . the thing is, now he might say: "If you give it to me in writing, I will come," but we'll say: "We have already personally come. Our spiritual master has come twice personally, and now you have to simply come. The invitation is already given. Now Tīrtha Mahārāja should come here." He'll never do that. Bhavānanda: He'll never come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. So then that way we don't have to cooperate. Prabhupāda: So this paper you keep, because these rascals, they may create some trouble. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of trouble? Prabhupāda: Trouble like this, just like he was detained. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was that? Bhavānanda: When I had that . . . Prabhupāda: They can file some complaint inducing something. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it was very interesting. Last night that complaint . . . my lawyer was this man who was sitting right here last night, this old man, Nandulal? He was my lawyer. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Bhavānanda: And he is the one who asked me, "Who is behind this case?" He asked me when we brought him from Krishnanagar. Because he is considered the best lawyer in Nadia, so we brought him in, and as we were leaving, after the first time I appeared, he said, "There is someone . . . this man is a farmer, laborer. Who has put him up to this?" He said, "There is someone behind this." So he asked me, "Was it Śrīdhara? Someone of the Gauḍīya Maṭha is behind this." But he came last night with them, this lawyer, old man. He came with them. So they were definitely the ones behind it. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhavānanda: They were definitely the ones behind that case. They somehow got their hands on that man and had him bring charges, even though the whole thing was dropped, you know. Prabhupāda: Who was behind them? Bhavānanda: Well, this man, he mentioned Śrīdhara Mahārāja's name. He said: "Some Gauḍīya Maṭha person." Prabhupāda: He's a very good lawyer. Bhavānanda: Yes. He's retired, but he's the most respected lawyer in Nadia. So he mentioned. Prabhupāda: So he was in our side. Bhavānanda: Yes. So he had mentioned, "Someone from the Gauḍīya Maṭha." He said: "You have many enemies." He said: "This man would not have thought of this kind of thing, to do this kind of thing. Someone had to . . ." Prabhupāda: Who? Bhavānanda: When I had to go to court to appear for having kidnapped that woman and her son, that I was holding the woman and her son by force—the husband placed charges—so this lawyer said, "That . . . he was a simple man, a little crazy. He wouldn't have done it or had the money to do it. Someone with some more intelligence, higher intelligence, is behind him, goading him on, telling him what to do." He asked who did I think it was? He mentioned Gauḍīya Maṭha, and he asked for any . . . did I know any particular personalities. I said: "No." He said: "What about Śrīdhara Swami?" I said I didn't know who it was. Someone. Prabhupāda: So if Śrīdhara Swami was behind . . . maybe. There is no . . . Bhavānanda: The point is that they can make so much trouble like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Small troubles. *Bhavānanda: Yes, little harassment. Then I even . . . of course, I don't know. I even question . . . just like that Lalita Bose, that whole incident which Jayapatākā told you about. Who knows? She is so influenced by . . . she is big, so*-called Vaiṣṇava, and known in so many circles in Bengal. Who is influencing her? You know? Anyway, we simply stay on our land and develop our program. He is going mad. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhavānanda: He is becoming mad. Prabhupāda: Who? Bhavānanda: Tīrtha Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: (laughs) How? Bhavānanda: Well, the more he hears. Because he gets so many reports. So many people are coming here, and no one is going there. Even . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His mentality is becoming like Kaṁsa, I think. At every moment he is thinking, "This Prabhupāda, Prabhupāda . . ." Prabhupāda: So who . . .? Somebody inquired him that "What is this called? So many people are coming." Huh? Bhavānanda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He knows no one is coming there. Not very many more people are coming there than are here. Because most of the people come here . . . Prabhupāda: That they are realizing that, "We are becoming insignificant gradually." That they are realizing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one goes to Mādhava Mahārāja's maṭha at all. The only maṭha that they still visit is that Śrī Caitanya Maṭha. And they have no money, so that place is becoming so dilapidated that no one is going there either. And there's no life there. There's no young people. There are no . . . Prabhupāda: No, how they can? They cannot feed them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were speaking this morning, Bhavānanda Mahārāja and myself, that we were wondering if we could make like . . . you know, like so many people come here to eat prasādam . On the weekends, at least two to three thousand people come. So we were wondering whether it would be proper to make some kind of propaganda that, "If anyone wants to enroll their children here, their young boys in our gurukula , that they can . . ." Prabhupāda: So a similar counterpart leaflet you should that, "International Society for Krishna Consciousness, world organization, established by His Divine Grace, and anyone can come here and take foodstuff. We have got arrangement," like this. In suitable words you write and issue another pamphlet. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bengali. Prabhupāda: In Bengali and in English. Which may not touch there, but we write in our own way, that, "By the order of his guru he went to America. Then he . . ." That's a fact. What is the fact, that should be written. Give the list of the books and so on, so on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: List of the temples. *Prabhupāda: Yes, temples. And "He is the ācārya of the present Gauḍīya*-sampradāya." Bhavānanda: If we simply state the facts, there is no need for us to subtly infer or to exaggerate, because your activities are so glorious that . . . Prabhupāda: And invite anyone who is interested to become devotee. We shall provide place, food, education to the children. In this way make another statement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm just wondering . . . I was thinking that whether we . . . Prabhupāda: Without touching them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is . . . of course, we'll do this also. What about, like, all of these people coming? This is my point, that so many poor people are coming here. Practically they don't even have enough money to take care of their children properly. So whether we can make some verbal announcements, and whether we can set up a little table at the prasādam pavilion that, "Anyone who would like to enroll their sons in our school can do so"? Because many of these people can't take care of their children properly. I'm thinking when they see our boys they may want to give their sons. Prabhupāda: Yes, they will give. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that a good program? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can get many . . . I think we could get many, many men that way. Prabhupāda: The children, they are enjoying. In the morning they are enjoying. That is wanted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they're in ecstasy. Bhavānanda: All day they enjoy. When they are sweeping the road, they don't know that there's difference between work and play. Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhavānanda: To them, sweeping the road is their play. They love it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These children are much more hard working than the children in America. Like these few American boys that are here, they cannot compare with these Bengali boys. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their service attitude is much, much better. I think we should . . . Prabhupāda: By association they will be also. Bhavānanda: Yes, they have also improved. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jagaman has. Bhavānanda: Jagaman is wonderful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He works very hard. So I think we should try to get as many of these young boys as we can. We should use the facility of this prasādam distribution. Prabhupāda: The thing is that whether we should . . . this pamphlet, I don't think it has got any value. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has no value, Prabhupāda. What we should do is build this temple. If we just build this temple . . . this is my point. Let us build this temple immediately. Once this temple is built, everything is finished. All the glowworms are completely extinguished. There will be nothing left. They can do anything they want, and nothing will matter. If they have a 350*-story building . . . 350-foot building with escalators, with huge compounds, then everything is ended. Prabhupāda: So do like that, like America. *Bhavānanda: He can come here and stand outside and scream, "I am the ācārya*-deva ." Just like in America so many people are saying: "I am Napoleon." No one . . . Prabhupāda: That everyone says. That is not . . . Bhavānanda: We have to build this temple, because . . . Prabhupāda: So make something like American which is wonderful for the world. So you are Americans. You must do something. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we build this temple with escalators and the people go in the temple and they go up the escalator . . . Harikeśa: They'll never come back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . do you think that they're going to then go down the road to go into Śrī Caitanya Maṭha? Why would . . . what is the point of it after doing something like that? They'll never go. Prabhupāda: And if you can arrange some . . . what is called, that? This heliocopter. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Helicopter. Prabhupāda: Bringing our men from Dum Dum airport to our roof. Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: There are at least four roofs like this. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. The people will see. All the pilgrims will see. Like the demigods flying in. Prabhupāda: At least we can make a show—it is coming twice in a day and going twice in a day. And they will see that, "Oh, so many people are coming." *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you have to . . . the thing is, we're simply waiting for your go*-ahead, because unless we get the land and we can begin, we can't start this. Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa has sent him. Let him come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We shouldn't delay. If we . . . this is a little pamphlet. If we issue a counter pamphlet, it's not . . . I don't think it's such an important thing. The thing to do is to do something . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, practical. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . so significant that this becomes useless. Not that we issue another thing of this nature. Harikeśa: This is already useless. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I mean, what is the use of issuing another piece of paper against this paper? Let us make a skyscraper temple; then they can think what will be the comparison between this . . . Bhavānanda: On every level. Even the people this invitation was issued to. But they come, and when they come on Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura's appearance day, they all come down the road to here to visit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really. Bhavānanda: Even he gives off so much energy inviting this one and that one, they all come. They all want to come down the road. They at least come down for darśana here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They do? Bhavānanda: Yes, they have to. They've all been here. They all know it. They come with different personalities, different friends . . . in Krishnanagar, we are like the cinema in terms of entertainment. As soon as any man, any official, government official, his friends come from Calcutta, immediately they get in one of their government jeeps and they drive out here and come to see the ISKCON Maṭha, Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir. Immediately. So many men, they come all the time with their friends from Calcutta. Same thing in Navadvīpa. They come for an evening's . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: Fully satisfied. The woman puts on her sārī , the man dresses up in his kurtā . . . Prabhupāda: So our arrangement should be to give them some prasadam , very nice treatment. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've got to do this. We've got to do this. Prabhupāda: And if important man should write something in the visitor's book . . . reception. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There should be a reception, proper receptionist. Prabhupāda: So where the reception? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will sit? Bhavānanda: We'll make some arrangement. Prabhupāda: Make it immediately. Reception. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Nitāicānda is really first class. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nitāicānda is very good. Prabhupāda: Nitāicānda plus somebody very educated should be there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about that . . . who do we have like that that speaks Bengali? Bhavānanda: Subhaga. Oh, they love Subhaga. He preaches in the temple at the book table during the busy hours. So many people buy books, and all interested. He's very . . . Prabhupāda: Subhaga. Subhaga make the chief of the reception. And Nitāicānda his assistant, and another, a foreigner. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nitāicānda is in charge of the building. Bhavānanda: He has so much to do anyway, Nitāicānda. Subhaga is best. Prabhupāda: Subhaga and two foreigners. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As assistants. Hmm. Prabhupāda: Make that arrangement. He is very good boy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he is really good. Prabhupāda: And he has understood the philosophy. He has got ten years' experience of London. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I met him in the London airport, and I told him, "Why don't you come to India?" 'Cause I saw him. I thought he'd be really helpful here. So, Prabhupāda, another thing, is there any need to increase our prasādam distribution? Like right now about a thousand people come. Prabhupāda: No, what . . . they are coming, but if you see that more are coming, then increase. There is no question of advertising. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There isn't. We shouldn't advertise. *Prabhupāda: Rather, you make some arrangement that there will be prasādam *-selling there, and anyone comes within the temple, give him something. Just like I give here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we don't do that at all. Bhavānanda: We do. Everyone who comes in the temple, they get that miṣṭi baḍā . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone? Bhavānanda: Everyone. Prabhupāda: Miṣṭi baḍā ? Bhavānanda: Miṣṭi baḍā we give, gūr and peanut with little coconut in it and masalā . Oh, we're famous now in the whole area. Even Jayapatākā was seeing one government official in Krishnanagar, and he said: "Did you bring me any of that baḍā ?" They all want. Prabhupāda: Anyway, something must be given. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, if we get a good cook like Shantilal and he can cook hundreds of singāra or kacaurī and we can sell, and then the next room have one men who serves them prasādam , everyone will come to take prasādam . Prabhupāda: Keep nice water, sitting place. They will take. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of sitting place? On the floor with mats, or benches and tables? Prabhupāda: Benches, table will be nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Better. Like in a South Indian house. The South Indian restaurants, they have those . . . of course, those are fancy, like in Vṛndāvana. In the South Indian restaurant they always have a table with marble top. Then they put a leaf on it. Very nice. Harikeśa: There is room down there. That big room can be used as like a restaurant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where? Harikeśa: The next floor down on the end, where they sometimes have class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda wants it up there where they sell the prasādam . Bhavānanda: They will buy in some leaf cup and then go next door and have a place to sit down and take it, and then water to wash their . . . actually, there's a pump. Everything is right there. Prabhupāda: You will find such confectioner's shop, sitting place and eating. Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like that. Bhavānanda: Just like in Navadvīpa. Harikeśa: They have that near the Gopīnātha temple in Vṛndāvana. Everybody goes there. That is very big. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should make a nice sweet, sweetmeats also. Harikeśa: Lugloos is big there. Those lugloos . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should make many types of sweetmeats. There should be so many preparations, all offered to the Deity. People can purchase mahā*-prasādam. Oh, it will be very big. When you read in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, every time Caitanya Mahāprabhu's devotees are purchasing prasādam from Jagannātha temple, all the time. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the system. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It sounds like they make a huge quantity at Purī, huge quantities of foodstuffs. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Any time you can get one thousand man's eatables. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Any time? But we only offer one little plate at ārati . Prabhupāda: No, that you can increase as the demand is increased. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is such a demand in Purī? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone goes. They do not cook. He purchases prasādam and eat. Everyone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's so famous. Yes, whenever someone visits there they always bring back prasādam from Jagannātha. *Prabhupāda: It is . . . fifty*-six time, prasādam is offered there. Fifty-six time. Harikeśa: It's constant. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: It's constantly being offered, all day long. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Once offered, ārati is performed. Then it is taken away, washed, the room. Again half an hour after . . . why half an hour? Fifteen minutes after. Throughout the whole day and night, fifty*-six times. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Night also. *Prabhupāda: Night . . . not night. But up to late night. So fifty*-six time, chāppānna , within twenty-four hours, so just imagine. Harikeśa: Four or five times an hour. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we have to do that at this temple. Prabhupāda: Every fifteen minutes new set, prasādam . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You need a whole lot of Shantilals to do that. Prabhupāda: And these ingredients are supplied by Jagannātha's own field. They grow it, and they . . . so there is no, I mean, difficulty. They grow and they sell. They get money so they can maintain the establishment. A long time. There are potters. Daily they will supply for each prasādam a new pot. It cannot be used again. So few people purchase with pot, original pot, and they have got a fixed price. This big pot, say, five rupees, this pot, two rupees; this pot, one rupee. So as you like, you can purchase. Very nice system. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You went there sometimes to take prasādam ? *Prabhupāda: Yes, I became a guest. A gentleman was our tenant, and he gave me introduction letter to his brother*-in-law. He was a pleader in Jagannātha Purī. So he received me very well. So he offered me lunch, and I saw there was something, a small ball-like, in the pot, bowl. So I asked: "What is this?" He said: "It is meat." (laughs) He was eating meat, so he thought it is good reception, the guest is offered nice meat. So I said, "No, you . . . what is? I never took meat. I never expected; this is Jagannātha . . ." So then he became very much ashamed. He said: "I did not know. I thought this is the best . . ." Then, "Never mind." Then I stopped eating there. At that time I was a boy. After appearing in my B.A. examination there was holiday, so I went to Jagannātha Purī in 1920 or something like that. So I was married in 1918. So some of the friends of my wife, they said that, "Your husband now gone. He is not coming back." So after returning I understood she was crying. (laughs) So anyway, then I used to purchase prasādam in the market. They were bringing, and I was eating. I stayed for three, four days, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that when you were very young you always used to calculate what was the cost of a ticket to Purī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Every day I was seeing how to go to Jagannātha Purī and how to go to Vṛndāvana. At that time a fare was, for Vṛndāvana, four or five rupees, and similarly for Jagannātha Purī. So I was thinking, "When I shall go?" That's all. I took first opportunity to go to Jagannātha Purī after my examination, and in business connection when I went to Agra, then I first of all took the opportunity to go to Vṛndāvana from Agra. This was in 1925, and I visited Jagannātha Purī sometime in 1920. And '25 I went to Vṛndāvana. I remember, in those days I was sitting within the car, and there was some prasādam . One monkey entered and took away everything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the train compartment. Prabhupāda: Hmm. They are very clever. Many times in Vṛndāvana the monkeys have taken away from my hand foodstuff. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While you were eating. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Thrice . . . at least thrice, four times I remember. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You wanted them to take it? You were offering . . . Prabhupāda: No, suppose a big monkey comes and takes. You are stumped. (laughter) You have to give him. No other way. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They will attack otherwise. *Prabhupāda: In Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple I was cooking, the other room. So although the door was closed, he knew. He opened the door and took away. Sometimes they would take away the . . . (door opens) Come on. The, what is called, dough? For . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cāpāṭis ? Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi . So they will eat that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Raw dough. Prabhupāda: You gave him some book, this Surendra? Jayapatākā: That was a long time ago I gave one book. Since then you told me not . . . you wrote that don't give any books, but that was a long time ago I gave. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So you have talked and dealt with him? Jayapatākā: He came to me and said he wanted a job here. He said he wanted to be our manager, this and that. And then he was hinting about that they were getting one wage, one allowance, so he was expecting to get some allowance also, a little more. Prabhupāda: So he is coming now. What is the purpose? Jayapatākā: He wanted to be our . . . to work for us. To work for Your Divine Grace, maybe. Prabhupāda: How did you find him by dealing with him? Jayapatākā: I didn't find him. He found me. Prabhupāda: No, no, how you have . . .? How do you . . .? Jayapatākā: Oh, how did I find . . . how did . . .? Well, I know that influentially he is, in the district level, he is very influential. I mean to say that he has got very good relations with all the government people and all the local people. And whenever I go somewhere to invite them for any festival, any function, they would always speak highly of Surendra Das and that he had just about a week ago before, he had already invited them for the Caitanya Maṭha. So he is very active in that way, something which we don't have time or understanding to do, so many of us. He knows how to receive people and make them feel very nice and then show them around. He has got that . . . a nice personality like that, and he is very active in . . . Prabhupāda: So if we engage him, do you think we shall get some good service? Jayapatākā: I don't know the . . . I know that he is able to perform good service. As far as whether he'll . . . other people tell me that since he's been working for the Caitanya Maṭha . . . (break) (end) Prabhupāda: The stricture of nature's law, that is science. Is it not? Scientific effort. They will never be able to do so, but still, they are . . . to stop death, birth, death, old age, is very major problem, but even in small things you cannot do anything. Everywhere you are dependent. And still, they are very much proud that they are advancing in scientific knowledge so that they can overcome the stringent laws of nature and so on, so on. Durāśaya . It is called durāśaya , hope which will never be fulfilled. Is it not? Durāśaya. Śāstra, Bhāgavata , says, durāśaya . This is their foolishness. They are expecting something which will never be fulfilled. Therefore śāstra says durāśaya . Now what they are doing about the moon planet? Harikeśa: They've forgotten about it. Sudāmā: Now they're trying for Mars. Prabhupāda: Just see. Hele dāntavān keuṭe. A man was trying to capture snake. So there are snakes, hele . There are many snakes; they have no poison, especially the water snake, the hele . So hele dāntavān keuṭe . Keuṭe means cobra. So one cannot capture the poisonless snake, and he is attempting to capture cobra. So they could not go to the moon planet, which is only 1,600,000 miles above the sun, and they are going to Venus, which is far, far away, still. How many miles the Venus is situated? They have committed some mistake. Harikeśa: Yes. Well, they say here it's 600,000 yojanas , which makes 48,000,000 miles—no—480,000,000 miles above the sun. Prabhupāda: So they cannot reach sun . . . they are trying to go above the sun. (someone enters) Asun. Basun. (Please come. Sit down.) Indian guest: Hare Krsna. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Basun. Kothyeke elen? (Sit down. Where are you from?) Indian guest: Ami . . . ei (I am . . . this) . . . (indistinct) (break) It is giving a quotation from the *Vedas*. How to act on Vedic principles, that is called smṛti . Sometimes the original law is explained by one lawyer in detail. So that detailed explanation is like smṛti , and the original law is śruti . In that we have to bathe. Smṛti means which is explaining śruti to understand easily. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we should never think that smṛti is an interpretation. Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not inter . . . it is explanation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like sometimes the smārtas , they argue that if you quote smṛti , it is not as good as śruti . Prabhupāda: Yes. But smṛti . . . just like the Māyāvādīs. They do not accept, because their interpretation of Veda is different. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. So they say that smṛti is an interpretation. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't accept Bhagavad*-gītā , many of them. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what is our answer to such persons? Prabhupāda: We have got our own ācāryas . If you don't accept, I don't accept you. That is my . . . what can be done? Harikeśa: Madhvācārya made a commentary on the *Gītā* where he quoted a Sanskrit verse. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Harikeśa: He quoted a Vedic verse for every Bhagavad*-gītā verse to prove that Bhagavad-gītā is śruti . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Madhvācārya? Harikeśa: Or somebody like that. Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya. Harikeśa: Who? Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has quoted. Harikeśa: Rāmānujācārya. *Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has given quotation from śruti for every verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . (pause) (devotee enters and offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: So read from the . . . Bhavānanda: It starts off with big print: "Ācāryadeva Tridandi Swami Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Mahārāja. All learned men are aware that in the dark days of India when the Hindu religion was in great danger . . ." Prabhupāda: (laughs) This is nonsense. *Bhavānanda: ". . . our Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was born at Śrī Māyāpur, destined to remove the dark clouds which had overshadowed true religious thinking by traveling alone on foot throughout the length and breadth of India. Preaching His gospel of love, He brought about a religious upheaval which put an end to all religious conflicts and suicidal vociferous tendencies. The benign influence of His love philosophy made the whole of India a spiritually united cultural domain. Soul*-enrapturing kīrtana music was organized from one end of the country to the other. A neo-humanism based on love regarded as the highest objective of human existence held sway. The difference between man and man was forgotten, and the fundamental unity of human nature and human destiny was stressed upon. But in the early nineteenth century, true religion was at a very low ebb due to lack of proper publicity of literature and also for want of great ācāryas to propagate the cults in their true aspect. It was a dark period for the Caitanya or Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism when it fell from its highest transcendentalism to the lowest possible degradation because of so many abuses and evil practices which crept into it through plenty of pseudo-followers. Vaiṣṇavism was almost abandoned by the educated section of people. Its literature was hardly read. Kīrtana was looked upon not as a form of prayer but as a means of gratification by people of loose morals. Most of the Vaiṣṇava followers of the period lost their high standard of morality, their loving aestheticism, their intellectual superiority and devotional fervor, which were the main characteristics of the previous masters. The influx of Western ideas came in, and English educated people fell into the hands of Christians. Fortunately, at that time, we got a great Vaiṣṇava savant and scholar, Ṭhākura Kedāranātha Bhaktivinoda, who wrote widely and successfully created an interest among the educated public in Vaiṣṇava religion and literature. His discovery of Śrīdhāma Māyāpur, the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, which was so long hidden from the public eye, gave a new impetus to its propagation. The age of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism set in. Thereafter, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Ṭhākura took hold of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism with a vow to propagate it in its true perspective, even as it was practiced with unparalleled and unprecedented transcendentalism by Śrī Rūpa and Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmīs, followers of Śrī Caitanya. In proper time, he got a great personality who readily shouldered the . . ." Prabhupāda: Just see now: "He got a great personality." He is that personality. He'll also prove that. Bhavānanda: ". . . who shouldered the burden of the mighty mission of Śrīla Sarasvatī Ṭhākura. That great personality is President Ācāryadeva, His Holiness Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktivilāsa . . ." Prabhupāda: But you . . . jaya morena apne morol . This great personality, why he is not accepted by other disciples? How he becames a great personality? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. If one proclaims himself to be the king and no one . . . Prabhupāda: No one accepts him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of king? Prabhupāda: That is called in Bengali, jaya mane apna morol. Morol means the leader of the society, of the village. Here there are morol . So in the village nobody cares for him, and he declares that, "I am morol ." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That person is insane. Prabhupāda: Nobody cares for him, and he is thinking that, "Great personality." Where is his greatness? Who knows him? Just see. So he is making a plan to declare himself a great personality. Bhavānanda: It goes on to explain why he is such a great personality. Prabhupāda: So why explain? If he is great personality, everyone should know. Why he is trying to explain? What is the use of explanation? If a great personality is unknown, and he has to be known by explanatory notes, then how he is great personality? Bhavānanda: Just like the President of the United States. He doesn't have to say, "I am the President." Everyone knows. Prabhupāda: Yes. Go on reading. Bhavānanda: ". . . Tīrtha Mahārāja, who was then known as guru - preṣṭha , "Most dear to his guru ," and also known to the disciples of Śrīla Sarasvatī Ṭhākura as Kuñjada, giver of shelter. In all the missionary works and the management of the maṭhas , Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja was the right hand of his Gurudeva. By his constant, unstinted service rendered to Śrīla Prabhupāda, whose most intimate disciple he was, he almost became a counterpart of that great saint." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. This is not . . . "Counterpart." Jumping. Trying to equal . . . Prabhupāda: So those who are not accepting him, so they are all fools. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is very bad, Prabhupāda. It says he wanted to be . . . he almost became counterpart. That means he is trying to become equal or superior to guru . Prabhupāda: Superior. Bhavānanda: In this first sentence, superior; that Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, his whole mission was dependent upon this great personality, Tīrtha Mahārāja. Not that Bhaktisiddhānta was a great personality, but that the great personality is Tīrtha Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: He has written like that? Bhavānanda: He said: "In proper time he got a great personality who readily shouldered the burden of the mighty mission of Sarasvatī Ṭhākura." That's implying that he is the one responsible. Prabhupāda: He says . . . his impression is like that. Then? Bhavānanda: "In all preaching work, everybody felt the sober but encouraging hand of Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja. Śrīla Prabhupāda never did anything without consulting him first or without his consent. So all the desires for future work of Prabhupāda Śrīla Sarasvatī . . ." Prabhupāda: He does not mention his name. He says . . . all right, go . . . his sannyāsī name is . . . all right. Then? *Bhavānanda: "All the desires for future work of Śrīla Prabhupāda Sarasvatī Ṭhākura used to come to the present ācāryadeva as an impulse first, which he translated into action at once. In spite of a hundred hindrances from so*-called religionists with a vision of a future worldwide mission, Śrīla Prabhupāda established Śrī Caitanya Maṭha at Śrī Māyāpur, the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, on the Phālguna Pūrṇimā day, the seventh March, 1918, which was a red-letter day in the history of theistic religious revival in this age. He started a countrywide movement to carry the message of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to every door. In a hectic manner, within a couple of years, he preached Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism throughout India and sent disciples to England, Germany, and other parts of Europe and Burma to preach the message of Śrī Caitanya and establish sixty-four branches under the name of Śrī Gauḍīya Maṭha throughout India and abroad, and a vast literature flowed through his versatile pen. The large number of publications in different languages and the vigorous missionary activities and door-to-door preaching by the sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs of the Maṭha, who held meetings in the remotest villages, duly spread Śrī Caitanya's teachings, which today are followed in every part of India. His songs are sung in chorus, and a great interest is created among the intelligentsia of India. After having become the president of the institution . . ." In this last paragraph, all of these activities of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, there is no mention of his name. His whole mission, there is actually no mention of his name, that he is the one who has done it. "After having become the president of the institution, Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja has been traveling throughout India and Pakistan preaching the devotional cult of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and he has come in contact with many savants of present India who are all struck with reverent admiration for his deep knowledge of philosophy. Dr. Rādhākamal Mukherjee, vice- chancellor of Lucknow University, remarks, 'There is no more distinguished and erudite interpreter of Śrī Caitanya's Vaiṣṇava thought than His Holiness Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja.' " Prabhupāda: And what is Rādhākamal Mukherjee? *Bhavānanda: " 'He has been a prolific writer and commentator and has traveled and discoursed widely in different parts of India. His profound illuminative discourses have everywhere created a genuine interest in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and in the dynamic religious movement he represents.' There may not be any doubt among the well*-informed people that the Śrī Caitanya Maṭha, with its branches, Śrī Gauḍīya Maṭhas, throughout India and abroad, have been propagating the greatest religion, which, from a realistic point of view, has helped to build up a true civilization. Today, due to the activities of Śrī Caitanya Maṭha, a spiritual thirst has been created, especially among the deep-thinking and educated people of the world, for people from all over the world are coming to this institution to learn and follow the great religion of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and to understand the practical Indian way of life. Today the headquarter extends over a mile, with beautiful temples, yet standing in an atmosphere of absorbing silence of meditation and worship, surrounded on all sides by emerald green paddy fields and the Ganges flowing hard by, far from the madding crowd's strife and strain. Māyāpur is now an enchanted place, the abode of peace. The atmosphere of the place is charming. The chanting of the holy name of Hari all day and night takes one to a celestial place." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't hear the chanting from their maṭha all day and night. Bhavānanda: No, it's only from here. "It is more heavenly than heaven itself. It is the sacred Vṛndāvana of Bengal, hallowed by the dancing steps of the Lord, and its air is purified by His noble call to prayer. Whoever pays a visit to her will leave her with regret, and those who have not yet visited the place will carry their regrets unto death." Prabhupāda: So he is making some propaganda that he is the . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, just like in the woods the jackal is always crying that he is the king, but who cares for him? What is his qualification? Prabhupāda: So do we require to . . .? There is no use. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, our answer is all of these books. Prabhupāda: That's all. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our answer is twenty*-four-hour kīrtana, prasādam distribution . . . Prabhupāda: And you keep it very carefully in the file. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should answer him by our preaching, by our vigorous preaching. Bhavānanda: Many people must be asking him, "What about this ISKCON maṭha ?" That's why he is . . . it's driving him mad. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's speaking against us all the time. He never says anything good about us. Prabhupāda: No, he is very envious about us. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I think now he must have come to the conclusion that there is no way to stop us, so he is thinking how he can . . . I have a hunch he is thinking how he can become connected in some way to get some benefit. That's why he is sending this man, this maṭha commander. Because he sees now there is no way he can stop us, so he is thinking, "How can I connect somehow with them? Because they have so much money, and they're going to be doing so many big things, I must establish a connection with them." Prabhupāda: So he wants to establish connection with us and . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think so. Prabhupāda: . . . and describe that he has . . . just like Mādhava Mahārāja also attempted. This is the attempt. So, what we have to do in this connection? Let them do whatever nonsense they want. We shall do our own business. And we have no business to propagate that we are making . . . people already know us all over the world. So . . . but suppose if he makes an attempt to mix with us so that he can take advantage, his main policy is that we may go there. That is his . . . because if we do not go, then all their propaganda makes him not very important if we go there . . . if we do not go there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why does he depend upon our going there to become important? Prabhupāda: Because he is visualizing that by our propaganda throughout the whole world, people will come here. That he has already seen. And if we do not go there, then he becomes insignificant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "If we don't" means if anyone from all over the world who comes . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Bhavānanda: People are attracted by the Westerners coming to the maṭha . So if we're up at that maṭha , any of us, and then they say: "Just see." They say in Bengali, "Just see. They are coming. To see our Guru Mahārāja, they are coming." Prabhupāda: That was the policy of Mādhava Mahārāja and Śrīdhara Mahārāja that, "Although Bhaktivedanta Swami is propagating throughout, he is subordinate to us, under our instruction." So all these three . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A real dream world they are living in. Bhavānanda: Here they have even included our temple in their domain. "The headquarters extends for over a mile, with beautiful temples and paddy fields." When we put up our wall, then they will not be able to include us. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what we should . . . the point is that no matter how much they press for any kind of mixing, our first point is, "You come here and visit us." And he'll never do that. Never do that. And we should not . . . we already invited him twice, so we don't have to give any more invitation. We should simply say verbally, "Let Tīrtha Mahārāja come here, as we have come so many times. Then we can speak about some kind of cooperation." Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: I remember, Śrīla . . . you walked there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: From here you walked all the way . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twice Prabhupāda has visited and personally requested, and he won't come here. And now . . . the thing is, now he might say: "If you give it to me in writing, I will come," but we'll say: "We have already personally come. Our spiritual master has come twice personally, and now you have to simply come. The invitation is already given. Now Tīrtha Mahārāja should come here." He'll never do that. Bhavānanda: He'll never come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. So then that way we don't have to cooperate. Prabhupāda: So this paper you keep, because these rascals, they may create some trouble. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of trouble? Prabhupāda: Trouble like this, just like he was detained. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was that? Bhavānanda: When I had that . . . Prabhupāda: They can file some complaint inducing something. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it was very interesting. Last night that complaint . . . my lawyer was this man who was sitting right here last night, this old man, Nandulal? He was my lawyer. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Bhavānanda: And he is the one who asked me, "Who is behind this case?" He asked me when we brought him from Krishnanagar. Because he is considered the best lawyer in Nadia, so we brought him in, and as we were leaving, after the first time I appeared, he said, "There is someone . . . this man is a farmer, laborer. Who has put him up to this?" He said, "There is someone behind this." So he asked me, "Was it Śrīdhara? Someone of the Gauḍīya Maṭha is behind this." But he came last night with them, this lawyer, old man. He came with them. So they were definitely the ones behind it. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhavānanda: They were definitely the ones behind that case. They somehow got their hands on that man and had him bring charges, even though the whole thing was dropped, you know. Prabhupāda: Who was behind them? Bhavānanda: Well, this man, he mentioned Śrīdhara Mahārāja's name. He said: "Some Gauḍīya Maṭha person." Prabhupāda: He's a very good lawyer. Bhavānanda: Yes. He's retired, but he's the most respected lawyer in Nadia. So he mentioned. Prabhupāda: So he was in our side. Bhavānanda: Yes. So he had mentioned, "Someone from the Gauḍīya Maṭha." He said: "You have many enemies." He said: "This man would not have thought of this kind of thing, to do this kind of thing. Someone had to . . ." Prabhupāda: Who? Bhavānanda: When I had to go to court to appear for having kidnapped that woman and her son, that I was holding the woman and her son by force—the husband placed charges—so this lawyer said, "That . . . he was a simple man, a little crazy. He wouldn't have done it or had the money to do it. Someone with some more intelligence, higher intelligence, is behind him, goading him on, telling him what to do." He asked who did I think it was? He mentioned Gauḍīya Maṭha, and he asked for any . . . did I know any particular personalities. I said: "No." He said: "What about Śrīdhara Swami?" I said I didn't know who it was. Someone. Prabhupāda: So if Śrīdhara Swami was behind . . . maybe. There is no . . . Bhavānanda: The point is that they can make so much trouble like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Small troubles. *Bhavānanda: Yes, little harassment. Then I even . . . of course, I don't know. I even question . . . just like that Lalita Bose, that whole incident which Jayapatākā told you about. Who knows? She is so influenced by . . . she is big, so*-called Vaiṣṇava, and known in so many circles in Bengal. Who is influencing her? You know? Anyway, we simply stay on our land and develop our program. He is going mad. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhavānanda: He is becoming mad. Prabhupāda: Who? Bhavānanda: Tīrtha Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: (laughs) How? Bhavānanda: Well, the more he hears. Because he gets so many reports. So many people are coming here, and no one is going there. Even . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His mentality is becoming like Kaṁsa, I think. At every moment he is thinking, "This Prabhupāda, Prabhupāda . . ." Prabhupāda: So who . . .? Somebody inquired him that "What is this called? So many people are coming." Huh? Bhavānanda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He knows no one is coming there. Not very many more people are coming there than are here. Because most of the people come here . . . Prabhupāda: That they are realizing that, "We are becoming insignificant gradually." That they are realizing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one goes to Mādhava Mahārāja's maṭha at all. The only maṭha that they still visit is that Śrī Caitanya Maṭha. And they have no money, so that place is becoming so dilapidated that no one is going there either. And there's no life there. There's no young people. There are no . . . Prabhupāda: No, how they can? They cannot feed them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were speaking this morning, Bhavānanda Mahārāja and myself, that we were wondering if we could make like . . . you know, like so many people come here to eat prasādam . On the weekends, at least two to three thousand people come. So we were wondering whether it would be proper to make some kind of propaganda that, "If anyone wants to enroll their children here, their young boys in our gurukula , that they can . . ." Prabhupāda: So a similar counterpart leaflet you should that, "International Society for Krishna Consciousness, world organization, established by His Divine Grace, and anyone can come here and take foodstuff. We have got arrangement," like this. In suitable words you write and issue another pamphlet. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bengali. Prabhupāda: In Bengali and in English. Which may not touch there, but we write in our own way, that, "By the order of his guru he went to America. Then he . . ." That's a fact. What is the fact, that should be written. Give the list of the books and so on, so on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: List of the temples. *Prabhupāda: Yes, temples. And "He is the ācārya of the present Gauḍīya*-sampradāya." Bhavānanda: If we simply state the facts, there is no need for us to subtly infer or to exaggerate, because your activities are so glorious that . . . Prabhupāda: And invite anyone who is interested to become devotee. We shall provide place, food, education to the children. In this way make another statement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm just wondering . . . I was thinking that whether we . . . Prabhupāda: Without touching them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is . . . of course, we'll do this also. What about, like, all of these people coming? This is my point, that so many poor people are coming here. Practically they don't even have enough money to take care of their children properly. So whether we can make some verbal announcements, and whether we can set up a little table at the prasādam pavilion that, "Anyone who would like to enroll their sons in our school can do so"? Because many of these people can't take care of their children properly. I'm thinking when they see our boys they may want to give their sons. Prabhupāda: Yes, they will give. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that a good program? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can get many . . . I think we could get many, many men that way. Prabhupāda: The children, they are enjoying. In the morning they are enjoying. That is wanted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they're in ecstasy. Bhavānanda: All day they enjoy. When they are sweeping the road, they don't know that there's difference between work and play. Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhavānanda: To them, sweeping the road is their play. They love it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These children are much more hard working than the children in America. Like these few American boys that are here, they cannot compare with these Bengali boys. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their service attitude is much, much better. I think we should . . . Prabhupāda: By association they will be also. Bhavānanda: Yes, they have also improved. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jagaman has. Bhavānanda: Jagaman is wonderful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He works very hard. So I think we should try to get as many of these young boys as we can. We should use the facility of this prasādam distribution. Prabhupāda: The thing is that whether we should . . . this pamphlet, I don't think it has got any value. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has no value, Prabhupāda. What we should do is build this temple. If we just build this temple . . . this is my point. Let us build this temple immediately. Once this temple is built, everything is finished. All the glowworms are completely extinguished. There will be nothing left. They can do anything they want, and nothing will matter. If they have a 350*-story building . . . 350-foot building with escalators, with huge compounds, then everything is ended. Prabhupāda: So do like that, like America. *Bhavānanda: He can come here and stand outside and scream, "I am the ācārya*-deva ." Just like in America so many people are saying: "I am Napoleon." No one . . . Prabhupāda: That everyone says. That is not . . . Bhavānanda: We have to build this temple, because . . . Prabhupāda: So make something like American which is wonderful for the world. So you are Americans. You must do something. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we build this temple with escalators and the people go in the temple and they go up the escalator . . . Harikeśa: They'll never come back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . do you think that they're going to then go down the road to go into Śrī Caitanya Maṭha? Why would . . . what is the point of it after doing something like that? They'll never go. Prabhupāda: And if you can arrange some . . . what is called, that? This heliocopter. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Helicopter. Prabhupāda: Bringing our men from Dum Dum airport to our roof. Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: There are at least four roofs like this. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. The people will see. All the pilgrims will see. Like the demigods flying in. Prabhupāda: At least we can make a show—it is coming twice in a day and going twice in a day. And they will see that, "Oh, so many people are coming." *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you have to . . . the thing is, we're simply waiting for your go*-ahead, because unless we get the land and we can begin, we can't start this. Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa has sent him. Let him come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We shouldn't delay. If we . . . this is a little pamphlet. If we issue a counter pamphlet, it's not . . . I don't think it's such an important thing. The thing to do is to do something . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, practical. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . so significant that this becomes useless. Not that we issue another thing of this nature. Harikeśa: This is already useless. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I mean, what is the use of issuing another piece of paper against this paper? Let us make a skyscraper temple; then they can think what will be the comparison between this . . . Bhavānanda: On every level. Even the people this invitation was issued to. But they come, and when they come on Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura's appearance day, they all come down the road to here to visit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really. Bhavānanda: Even he gives off so much energy inviting this one and that one, they all come. They all want to come down the road. They at least come down for darśana here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They do? Bhavānanda: Yes, they have to. They've all been here. They all know it. They come with different personalities, different friends . . . in Krishnanagar, we are like the cinema in terms of entertainment. As soon as any man, any official, government official, his friends come from Calcutta, immediately they get in one of their government jeeps and they drive out here and come to see the ISKCON Maṭha, Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir. Immediately. So many men, they come all the time with their friends from Calcutta. Same thing in Navadvīpa. They come for an evening's . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: Fully satisfied. The woman puts on her sārī , the man dresses up in his kurtā . . . Prabhupāda: So our arrangement should be to give them some prasadam , very nice treatment. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've got to do this. We've got to do this. Prabhupāda: And if important man should write something in the visitor's book . . . reception. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There should be a reception, proper receptionist. Prabhupāda: So where the reception? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will sit? Bhavānanda: We'll make some arrangement. Prabhupāda: Make it immediately. Reception. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Nitāicānda is really first class. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nitāicānda is very good. Prabhupāda: Nitāicānda plus somebody very educated should be there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about that . . . who do we have like that that speaks Bengali? Bhavānanda: Subhaga. Oh, they love Subhaga. He preaches in the temple at the book table during the busy hours. So many people buy books, and all interested. He's very . . . Prabhupāda: Subhaga. Subhaga make the chief of the reception. And Nitāicānda his assistant, and another, a foreigner. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nitāicānda is in charge of the building. Bhavānanda: He has so much to do anyway, Nitāicānda. Subhaga is best. Prabhupāda: Subhaga and two foreigners. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As assistants. Hmm. Prabhupāda: Make that arrangement. He is very good boy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he is really good. Prabhupāda: And he has understood the philosophy. He has got ten years' experience of London. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I met him in the London airport, and I told him, "Why don't you come to India?" 'Cause I saw him. I thought he'd be really helpful here. So, Prabhupāda, another thing, is there any need to increase our prasādam distribution? Like right now about a thousand people come. Prabhupāda: No, what . . . they are coming, but if you see that more are coming, then increase. There is no question of advertising. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There isn't. We shouldn't advertise. *Prabhupāda: Rather, you make some arrangement that there will be prasādam *-selling there, and anyone comes within the temple, give him something. Just like I give here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we don't do that at all. Bhavānanda: We do. Everyone who comes in the temple, they get that miṣṭi baḍā . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone? Bhavānanda: Everyone. Prabhupāda: Miṣṭi baḍā ? Bhavānanda: Miṣṭi baḍā we give, gūr and peanut with little coconut in it and masalā . Oh, we're famous now in the whole area. Even Jayapatākā was seeing one government official in Krishnanagar, and he said: "Did you bring me any of that baḍā ?" They all want. Prabhupāda: Anyway, something must be given. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, if we get a good cook like Shantilal and he can cook hundreds of singāra or kacaurī and we can sell, and then the next room have one men who serves them prasādam , everyone will come to take prasādam . Prabhupāda: Keep nice water, sitting place. They will take. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of sitting place? On the floor with mats, or benches and tables? Prabhupāda: Benches, table will be nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Better. Like in a South Indian house. The South Indian restaurants, they have those . . . of course, those are fancy, like in Vṛndāvana. In the South Indian restaurant they always have a table with marble top. Then they put a leaf on it. Very nice. Harikeśa: There is room down there. That big room can be used as like a restaurant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where? Harikeśa: The next floor down on the end, where they sometimes have class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda wants it up there where they sell the prasādam . Bhavānanda: They will buy in some leaf cup and then go next door and have a place to sit down and take it, and then water to wash their . . . actually, there's a pump. Everything is right there. Prabhupāda: You will find such confectioner's shop, sitting place and eating. Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like that. Bhavānanda: Just like in Navadvīpa. Harikeśa: They have that near the Gopīnātha temple in Vṛndāvana. Everybody goes there. That is very big. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should make a nice sweet, sweetmeats also. Harikeśa: Lugloos is big there. Those lugloos . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should make many types of sweetmeats. There should be so many preparations, all offered to the Deity. People can purchase mahā*-prasādam. Oh, it will be very big. When you read in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, every time Caitanya Mahāprabhu's devotees are purchasing prasādam from Jagannātha temple, all the time. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the system. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It sounds like they make a huge quantity at Purī, huge quantities of foodstuffs. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Any time you can get one thousand man's eatables. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Any time? But we only offer one little plate at ārati . Prabhupāda: No, that you can increase as the demand is increased. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is such a demand in Purī? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone goes. They do not cook. He purchases prasādam and eat. Everyone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's so famous. Yes, whenever someone visits there they always bring back prasādam from Jagannātha. *Prabhupāda: It is . . . fifty*-six time, prasādam is offered there. Fifty-six time. Harikeśa: It's constant. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: It's constantly being offered, all day long. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Once offered, ārati is performed. Then it is taken away, washed, the room. Again half an hour after . . . why half an hour? Fifteen minutes after. Throughout the whole day and night, fifty*-six times. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Night also. *Prabhupāda: Night . . . not night. But up to late night. So fifty*-six time, chāppānna , within twenty-four hours, so just imagine. Harikeśa: Four or five times an hour. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we have to do that at this temple. Prabhupāda: Every fifteen minutes new set, prasādam . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You need a whole lot of Shantilals to do that. Prabhupāda: And these ingredients are supplied by Jagannātha's own field. They grow it, and they . . . so there is no, I mean, difficulty. They grow and they sell. They get money so they can maintain the establishment. A long time. There are potters. Daily they will supply for each prasādam a new pot. It cannot be used again. So few people purchase with pot, original pot, and they have got a fixed price. This big pot, say, five rupees, this pot, two rupees; this pot, one rupee. So as you like, you can purchase. Very nice system. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You went there sometimes to take prasādam ? *Prabhupāda: Yes, I became a guest. A gentleman was our tenant, and he gave me introduction letter to his brother*-in-law. He was a pleader in Jagannātha Purī. So he received me very well. So he offered me lunch, and I saw there was something, a small ball-like, in the pot, bowl. So I asked: "What is this?" He said: "It is meat." (laughs) He was eating meat, so he thought it is good reception, the guest is offered nice meat. So I said, "No, you . . . what is? I never took meat. I never expected; this is Jagannātha . . ." So then he became very much ashamed. He said: "I did not know. I thought this is the best . . ." Then, "Never mind." Then I stopped eating there. At that time I was a boy. After appearing in my B.A. examination there was holiday, so I went to Jagannātha Purī in 1920 or something like that. So I was married in 1918. So some of the friends of my wife, they said that, "Your husband now gone. He is not coming back." So after returning I understood she was crying. (laughs) So anyway, then I used to purchase prasādam in the market. They were bringing, and I was eating. I stayed for three, four days, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that when you were very young you always used to calculate what was the cost of a ticket to Purī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Every day I was seeing how to go to Jagannātha Purī and how to go to Vṛndāvana. At that time a fare was, for Vṛndāvana, four or five rupees, and similarly for Jagannātha Purī. So I was thinking, "When I shall go?" That's all. I took first opportunity to go to Jagannātha Purī after my examination, and in business connection when I went to Agra, then I first of all took the opportunity to go to Vṛndāvana from Agra. This was in 1925, and I visited Jagannātha Purī sometime in 1920. And '25 I went to Vṛndāvana. I remember, in those days I was sitting within the car, and there was some prasādam . One monkey entered and took away everything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the train compartment. Prabhupāda: Hmm. They are very clever. Many times in Vṛndāvana the monkeys have taken away from my hand foodstuff. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While you were eating. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Thrice . . . at least thrice, four times I remember. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You wanted them to take it? You were offering . . . Prabhupāda: No, suppose a big monkey comes and takes. You are stumped. (laughter) You have to give him. No other way. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They will attack otherwise. *Prabhupāda: In Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple I was cooking, the other room. So although the door was closed, he knew. He opened the door and took away. Sometimes they would take away the . . . (door opens) Come on. The, what is called, dough? For . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cāpāṭis ? Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi . So they will eat that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Raw dough. Prabhupāda: You gave him some book, this Surendra? Jayapatākā: That was a long time ago I gave one book. Since then you told me not . . . you wrote that don't give any books, but that was a long time ago I gave. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So you have talked and dealt with him? Jayapatākā: He came to me and said he wanted a job here. He said he wanted to be our manager, this and that. And then he was hinting about that they were getting one wage, one allowance, so he was expecting to get some allowance also, a little more. Prabhupāda: So he is coming now. What is the purpose? Jayapatākā: He wanted to be our . . . to work for us. To work for Your Divine Grace, maybe. Prabhupāda: How did you find him by dealing with him? Jayapatākā: I didn't find him. He found me. Prabhupāda: No, no, how you have . . .? How do you . . .? Jayapatākā: Oh, how did I find . . . how did . . .? Well, I know that influentially he is, in the district level, he is very influential. I mean to say that he has got very good relations with all the government people and all the local people. And whenever I go somewhere to invite them for any festival, any function, they would always speak highly of Surendra Das and that he had just about a week ago before, he had already invited them for the Caitanya Maṭha. So he is very active in that way, something which we don't have time or understanding to do, so many of us. He knows how to receive people and make them feel very nice and then show them around. He has got that . . . a nice personality like that, and he is very active in . . . Prabhupāda: So if we engage him, do you think we shall get some good service? Jayapatākā: I don't know the . . . I know that he is able to perform good service. As far as whether he'll . . . other people tell me that since he's been working for the Caitanya Maṭha . . . (break) (end) (Bengali Meeting with Godbrothers) (Translated from Bengali) Devotee: (announcing in English) Prabhupāda goes to the Caitanya Math in Māyāpur in the morning of March 6th, 1976. Speaking with his Godbrothers there. (laughter) (Śrīla Prabhupāda’s bhajan playing in the background) Prabhupāda: Do I need to get up? Is there going to be kirtan ? Devotee: Yes. Please let us go there. Devotee: Take the seats to the temple . . . (indistinct) (laughter) Prabhupāda: You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. ( mṛdanga and karatālas playing) (break) *Prabhupāda leads the prema*-dhvani prayers and all the assembled devotees repeat after him: Prabhupāda: All glories to the assembled devotees. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: All glories to the assembled devotees. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: All glories to the assembled devotees.Thank you very much. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa! (chants pranam mantras) Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! (conversation between Śrīla Prabhupāda and his Godbrothers. regarding preaching in the Middle East. mostly indistinct) Prabhupāda: In the Middle East, we’ve organised programs . . . Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Where? Prabhupāda: In the Middle East . . . Arabia . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (to devotee) What’s the name of that Professor? (indistinct) Prabhupāda Disciple (1): Doctor N . . . (indistinct) He’s the most eminent scholar in Iran. He’s received our books very well. What has he said about our books? Prabhupāda Disciple (2): That . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda Disciple (2): . . . represents the real Vedic tradition. *Prabhupāda: He’s Muslim but appreciates mantra*-vidya . (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: They will accept everywhere but slowly. They will accept slowly. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: Even in Japan. The problem is with the language. The Japanese boys are very good. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: They do not understand English? Prabhupāda: They know but very little. They are philosophical. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: I heard in Germany . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, in Germany it is big . . . Prabhupāda's Godbrother: West Germany? Prabhupāda Disciple (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: In Poland, Slovakia, Rome. Prabhupāda's disciple: Even Hungary. Prabhupāda: Hungary . . . Prabhupāda's disciple: Hong Kong. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In Germany we have published Caitanya Caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Have you read a page or two? Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Yes. (laughter) . . . (indistinct) . . . is the fourth chapter completed? Prabhupāda: All completed. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Seventeen volumes. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: (recites an inaudible verse) I want to read that part. Prabhupāda: It is there . . . Prabhupāda's Godbrother: That part I want to read. Prabhupāda: All complete. Seventeen volumes. Prabhupāda Disciple (2): Beautiful colour illustrations.Wonderful paintings inside. Prabhupāda: Hmm . . . seventeen volumes. In all universities, colleges, professors . . . have given standing orders. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: You may like to give one set to Prabhupāda's library. Prabhupāda: Sure. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) (laughter) Prabhupāda and Devotees: ( japa ) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (inaudible) In New Vṛndāvana, we manufacture a lot of ghee. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Ghee? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Everyday, there is one thousand pounds of ghee. I have started a farm there. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Really? *Prabhupāda: There is one thousand pounds of milk . . . (indistinct) . . . they give fifty*-sixty pounds of milk, each. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: New Vṛndāvana . . . how much land is there . . . land . . . how much land? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Land? Prabhupāda: One thousand acres. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: One thousand acres? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Where? In New Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda's Godbrother: (chuckling) In New Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: One thousand acres? Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Yes. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: (chuckling) Was it just lying there? Prabhupāda: There is plenty of land in America. (indistinct background conversation) Prabhupāda: Proper utilisation is not happening. This is what I keep saying, that there’s so much available land on this planet. If there can be proper utilisation of this land, then ten times the numbers of the existing population of this planet can be fed. (laughter) Prabhupāda: They say there is over population. This is nonsense. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: India has too much . . . Prabhupāda: Nowhere has that (overpopulation) happened. That is a foolish person's idea. (laughter) Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Land utilisation has not happened. Prabhupāda: We understand . . . " eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān " (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). So what even if there is overpopulation, can He not feed everyone? (laughter) *Prabhupāda: All these theories are due to a 'God*-less' civilisation. (laughter) Prabhupāda: When Mahārāja Pṛthu asked, "Why are you not giving them?" Then what did Mother Earth reply? She said, "I will not give the demons. I will not give them." Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Yes. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: When human beings become demonic, they are going to starve to death. 'God*-less'. Otherwise, is there any dearth in Bhagavān's (the Supreme Person) kingdom? It is said, "eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān" (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is feeding everyone . . . overpopulation . . . the birds and animals, do they care about overpopulation? (laughter) They eat as must as they need. They take care of one dozen off-spring. Does overpopulation affect them? This is foolish. The most important thing is stated in the Bhāgavatam (śloka) but they want to starve and kill them. (laughter) *Prabhupāda's Godbrother: This is most important. If everyone is 'God*-centric', then there is no problem. *Prabhupāda: Yes, then there is no problem. As we have observed, one year there is an abundance of mangoes, another year there were hardly any. This is in nature's hands. God can give in abundance, even when there is an abundance of population. If someone chooses to be foolish and demonic (inaudible). Yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham ( Bhagavad-gītā 10.10) There is no lack in Bhagavān's kingdom. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: The thing is . . . (indistinct) (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Prabhupāda has said that the only thing lacking is Hari*-bhakti . Lack of Hari-kathā . (indistinct conversation) *Prabhupāda: There's a famine of Hari*-kathā (Kṛṣṇa's words). I have seen, they discard wheat into the ocean. They opine that if there is overproduction of food-grain, then the prices will go down if there is an abundance. Because when there is over-supply, prices will reduce, so they throw the food-grains. (end) (Bengali Meeting with Godbrothers) (Translated from Bengali) Devotee: (announcing in English) Prabhupāda goes to the Caitanya Math in Māyāpur in the morning of March 6th, 1976. Speaking with his Godbrothers there. (laughter) (Śrīla Prabhupāda’s bhajan playing in the background) Prabhupāda: Do I need to get up? Is there going to be kirtan ? Devotee: Yes. Please let us go there. Devotee: Take the seats to the temple . . . (indistinct) (laughter) Prabhupāda: You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. ( mṛdanga and karatālas playing) (break) *Prabhupāda leads the prema*-dhvani prayers and all the assembled devotees repeat after him: Prabhupāda: All glories to the assembled devotees. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: All glories to the assembled devotees. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: All glories to the assembled devotees.Thank you very much. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa! (chants pranam mantras) Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! (conversation between Śrīla Prabhupāda and his Godbrothers. regarding preaching in the Middle East. mostly indistinct) Prabhupāda: In the Middle East, we’ve organised programs . . . Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Where? Prabhupāda: In the Middle East . . . Arabia . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (to devotee) What’s the name of that Professor? (indistinct) Prabhupāda Disciple (1): Doctor N . . . (indistinct) He’s the most eminent scholar in Iran. He’s received our books very well. What has he said about our books? Prabhupāda Disciple (2): That . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda Disciple (2): . . . represents the real Vedic tradition. *Prabhupāda: He’s Muslim but appreciates mantra*-vidya . (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: They will accept everywhere but slowly. They will accept slowly. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: Even in Japan. The problem is with the language. The Japanese boys are very good. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: They do not understand English? Prabhupāda: They know but very little. They are philosophical. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: I heard in Germany . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, in Germany it is big . . . Prabhupāda's Godbrother: West Germany? Prabhupāda Disciple (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: In Poland, Slovakia, Rome. Prabhupāda's disciple: Even Hungary. Prabhupāda: Hungary . . . Prabhupāda's disciple: Hong Kong. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In Germany we have published Caitanya Caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Have you read a page or two? Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Yes. (laughter) . . . (indistinct) . . . is the fourth chapter completed? Prabhupāda: All completed. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Seventeen volumes. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: (recites an inaudible verse) I want to read that part. Prabhupāda: It is there . . . Prabhupāda's Godbrother: That part I want to read. Prabhupāda: All complete. Seventeen volumes. Prabhupāda Disciple (2): Beautiful colour illustrations.Wonderful paintings inside. Prabhupāda: Hmm . . . seventeen volumes. In all universities, colleges, professors . . . have given standing orders. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: You may like to give one set to Prabhupāda's library. Prabhupāda: Sure. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) (laughter) Prabhupāda and Devotees: ( japa ) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (inaudible) In New Vṛndāvana, we manufacture a lot of ghee. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Ghee? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Everyday, there is one thousand pounds of ghee. I have started a farm there. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Really? *Prabhupāda: There is one thousand pounds of milk . . . (indistinct) . . . they give fifty*-sixty pounds of milk, each. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: New Vṛndāvana . . . how much land is there . . . land . . . how much land? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Land? Prabhupāda: One thousand acres. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: One thousand acres? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Where? In New Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda's Godbrother: (chuckling) In New Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: One thousand acres? Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Yes. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: (chuckling) Was it just lying there? Prabhupāda: There is plenty of land in America. (indistinct background conversation) Prabhupāda: Proper utilisation is not happening. This is what I keep saying, that there’s so much available land on this planet. If there can be proper utilisation of this land, then ten times the numbers of the existing population of this planet can be fed. (laughter) Prabhupāda: They say there is over population. This is nonsense. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: India has too much . . . Prabhupāda: Nowhere has that (overpopulation) happened. That is a foolish person's idea. (laughter) Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Land utilisation has not happened. Prabhupāda: We understand . . . " eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān " (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). So what even if there is overpopulation, can He not feed everyone? (laughter) *Prabhupāda: All these theories are due to a 'God*-less' civilisation. (laughter) Prabhupāda: When Mahārāja Pṛthu asked, "Why are you not giving them?" Then what did Mother Earth reply? She said, "I will not give the demons. I will not give them." Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Yes. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: When human beings become demonic, they are going to starve to death. 'God*-less'. Otherwise, is there any dearth in Bhagavān's (the Supreme Person) kingdom? It is said, "eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān" (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is feeding everyone . . . overpopulation . . . the birds and animals, do they care about overpopulation? (laughter) They eat as must as they need. They take care of one dozen off-spring. Does overpopulation affect them? This is foolish. The most important thing is stated in the Bhāgavatam (śloka) but they want to starve and kill them. (laughter) *Prabhupāda's Godbrother: This is most important. If everyone is 'God*-centric', then there is no problem. *Prabhupāda: Yes, then there is no problem. As we have observed, one year there is an abundance of mangoes, another year there were hardly any. This is in nature's hands. God can give in abundance, even when there is an abundance of population. If someone chooses to be foolish and demonic (inaudible). Yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham ( Bhagavad-gītā 10.10) There is no lack in Bhagavān's kingdom. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: The thing is . . . (indistinct) (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Prabhupāda has said that the only thing lacking is Hari*-bhakti . Lack of Hari-kathā . (indistinct conversation) *Prabhupāda: There's a famine of Hari*-kathā (Kṛṣṇa's words). I have seen, they discard wheat into the ocean. They opine that if there is overproduction of food-grain, then the prices will go down if there is an abundance. Because when there is over-supply, prices will reduce, so they throw the food-grains. (end) *(Conversation With Radha*-Damodara Sankirtana Party) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Some men can come through the other room and stand out here. Devotee: Some devotees are going to have to go around. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You lead them, Gargamuni. Prabhupāda: Get this fan on. Fan and lights. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fan and lights. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: On behalf of all the bhaktas and Rādhā Dāmodara, we'd like to offer you this dakṣiṇā . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya . *Prabhupāda: You know, if Kṛṣṇa is virāḍ*-rūpa —so big mouth, so big belly—that, whatever you give, that is not sufficient. (chuckles) So here we are spreading Kṛṣṇa's mouth very widespread. Here is the plan for Māyāpur temple. This is the . . . this is only residential quarter. Real temple is not yet constructed. It will occupy 350 acres of land. So you are the pillars of this construction work. We are doing all your construction work on your contribution. So go on preaching and distributing books. If we get the . . . we are . . . books are . . . as your pushing on the sale is very nice, then the customers are also nice. These are American Express? No, no. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Barclay's Bank. Prabhupāda: Now everyone is issuing these traveler's check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But these are issued differently. In American Express, they charge some money, but these are freely given. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Then why the American Express will remain if people will go there? Free service to the constituent, those who are customer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think even to those who are not the constituents also. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . The public also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This happens to be our bank that we deal with. Prabhupāda: Barclay Bank is big bank, American bank. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This Ādi*-keśava Swami, his grandfather is Mr. Barclay. (laughter) Prabhupāda: It is grandfather's bank? *Ādi*-keśava: Great-uncle. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Great*-uncle. Prabhupāda: You are Mr. Barclay also? No. *Ādi*-keśava: Different name. Prabhupāda: So our . . . they are accommodated in how many buses? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Currently in six buses and six airports, because Tripurāri Mahārāja leads about twenty*-five men distributing in different airports around the country, and then there's another hundred men who are working out of six buses. Now two more buses are being built to accommodate everyone. And then another ten men are working at our bus construction head office. Prabhupāda: So, of course, you are not going to be absent for many, many days. You come and go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There won't be any difficulty, because every . . . Prabhupāda: They are trained up. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . training, that is the real perfection. And our Tripurāri Mahārāja is there, and Viṣṇujana Mahārāja. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja is very expert, and Madhudviṣa Swami will be helping them. *Prabhupāda: A devotee's one qualification is dakṣa, dakṣa, expert. Out of the twenty*-six qualifications, a devotee is always very expert in dealing. It is not that because they have left anything material, they do not know how to deal with material things. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī did it. Perhaps you know the story. Political. Although he had nothing to do with material things, when there was a political gain, he tackled it very nicely when he was young man. But devotee, although not interested in material things, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake they deal with material things very expertly. That should be the qualification of a devotee: expert. Not that, "I have nothing to do with these material things." No. The devotee's vision is: in everything there is Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. Just like we are using this Dictaphone and tape record. It is material things. Sometimes they accuse that, "You are against material things. Why you are using these material advantages?" Do they not? You do not meet such men? *Ādi*-keśava: Yes. *Prabhupāda: But for us there is nothing material. We have no such vision as "material" and "spiritual." Material means when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right. That is material. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram ( BG 5.29). He is the proprietor, He is the enjoyer. So, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything Kṛṣṇa's. So when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right on everything, that is material. Otherwise there is nothing material; everything spiritual. Everything is generated by Kṛṣṇa's energies, and there are two energies: material energy and spiritual energy. So in the material energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is less or nil. And in spiritual energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is prominent and very acute. I think I give this example somewhere—just like this nail, and just little below, there is skin. Both of them are my body, but in the skin there is sensation; *in the nail there is no sensation. But both of them are coming from the same source, the body. Similarly, everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ (SB 1.5.20). Everything is Bhagavān, but it appears like different to the different vision. Therefore we take everything, kṛṣṇa*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.26). Everything . . . in everything there is Kṛṣṇa's relationship. So there is no question of giving it up. Why shall I give it up? This is Kṛṣṇa's property. Why shall I give it up, prāpañcikatayā buddhyā , by mistaking it as material? Kṛṣṇa-sambandhi-vastunaḥ . So these Māyāvādīs, they say the brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā : "This material world is false, and Brahman is reality." And we don't say that. Everything is reality because it comes from reality. When it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is unreality. It is not properly being used. Otherwise there is no such thing as unreality, because it is coming from reality. So why shall I give it up, tyāga ? Neither tyāga , neither bhoga . Everything utilize for Kṛṣṇa. This is our way. Any question on this regard? I saw your wife also. She is here. Bhagavān: Yes. She is here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Practically all of these devotees are so much dedicated to book distribution that they are going out now nearly seven days a week, without stoppage. Prabhupāda: Utsāhān . *Utsāhā is the basic principle, utsāhān and sādhu*-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), association of sādhu . Simply utsāhān and the association is not sādhu —then it is material. Utsāhā means association of sādhu. Sādhu means devotee. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). Who is sādhu ? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. One who has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa, he is sādhu . So the association of such sādhu . . . sādhu, sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge . Whatever a sādhu does, there is no fault. Everything is right. But still, because we are in this material world, we shall act in such a way that nobody can accuse us. Sato vṛtteḥ. Sādhu is above all this vṛtta , but still, you keep pace with the material world; otherwise your activities will be hampered. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has said sato vṛtti : "The dealings should be very honest." Sato vṛtteḥ sādhu saṅge, ṣaḍbhiḥ , six items. Utsāhān , enthusiasm; dhairyāt , patience. Utsāhān dhairyāt niścayāt , with confidence. So enthusiasm, patience, confidence. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt. *Prabhupāda: Tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt . You have to act according to the prescribed way, and sato vṛtteḥ , and dealings very honest, and sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83). Everything perfect. So where you are all staying? In new quarters? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we have been very fortunate. They have given us . . . just as you have this wing, they have given us the whole wing on the next floor above. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very comfortably situated. *Prabhupāda: Everything, water supply, everything is there? In the beginning I thought that "Such a big building. Who will come and live here?" (laughter) It is that Matsyāvatāra. You know Matsyāvatāra? Keśava dhṛta*-mīna-śarīra, jaya jagadīśa hare . That one muni , he took water in his pot. He saw a fish. So after some time he saw the fish has grown, that it cannot be kept in that kamaṇḍalu . Then he gave more space. Then after some . . . he saw, he has . . . "It is filled up." Again more, again more. Then he threw it in the ocean, and again still big. (chuckles) That is Kṛṣṇa. Pralaya-payodhi-jale dhṛtavān asi vedam . And do you know this song: *Similarly, Varāha*-mūrti also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? When I was very young, in the house I was living in, my friend, his father was from Louisiana, where they have many alligators. This was in New York. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Louisiana means near . . . around Florida. Prabhupāda: Oh. Many . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Alligators, crocodiles. Prabhupāda: Crocodile. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So one day his father brought him two little crocodiles as a pet back to New York, where we were living. So he was keeping them in the bathtub. But just as you described, they started to grow, and eventually they became so big that he had to keep them in the house, and then they were running. And anyone that would come in, they would run. (laughter) Finally they had . . . Prabhupāda: Very ferocious. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had to give them to the zoo, New York Zoo. Prabhupāda: But I understand they can be tamed also. Is it possible? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think so. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Miami where I grew up, they used to have crocodile fights. What they would do, they would feed the crocodiles until they were completely sleepy, then they would fight with them . . . Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . so they couldn't move around so quick. Devotee (2): Sometimes they take their teeth out. *Prabhupāda: Then what remains? The teeth is dangerous. Yes. How condemned life. And we had to pass through all these. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). Nine lakhs of forms in the water. Crocodile is one of these. Just see how accurate is Vedic information. Never says: "Ten lakhs " or "Eight lakhs ." Nine lakhs . Now, if you don't believe, count. Go ahead. Count. How this knowledge is there? Nobody can go within the water to count how many forms are there, but how the Vedas gives the knowledge perfectly? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. This is Vedic knowledge. Where you cannot reach, and you refer to Vedas , you'll get the knowledge. That is Vedas , perfect knowledge. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi . Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given the example: stool is impure, rejectable. Everyone knows. Veda says: "No, cow dung is pure." And you examine it, you'll find it is pure. That is Vedic knowledge. When you get information from the Vedas , it is perfectly right. So it is easier to take knowledge from the Vedas . Then you'll become perfect in knowledge. There is no question of researching. That is not possible. What you'll research? How many animals are there, aquatics are there, in the water? It is beyond your experience. Is there any scientist who can go within the water and count how many aquatic forms are there? Nothing you can do. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣā viṁśati. What information we have got? Even you cannot speak perfectly well about this universe. We are not able even to speak perfectly what is there in the moon planet. They are going, trying to go, and coming back. And still, they are claiming perfection, as perfect as God. Just see how lunatic they are. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that the newly initiated brāhmaṇas have to come now. Maybe we should . . . Prabhupāda: So some meeting is not going to be held, down? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there's constantly kīrtanas and discourses. Prabhupāda: Lecture. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lectures and kīrtanas . Prabhupāda: Kīrtanas . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's soldier to fight with māyā . Devotees: Jaya! *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are our commander*-in-chief, Prabhupāda. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself says, ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo (Ohe Vaiṣṇava Ṭhākura). When He . . . in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta you have seen? In the first part you can find out this verse, ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo . Devotee: There's a song like that also. Prabhupāda: What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says it may be in a song also, one of the Vaiṣṇava songs. Prabhupāda: The first part. Here, this is first part of the . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Look in the index in the back. Prabhupāda: Index. You can read it. So you are reading books also. Not selling, but reading also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really they are soldiers, because many of them have been very severely beaten by police authorities and others during the distribution. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The men who are here now in this room, some of them have been put in jails . . . (aside) Watch out for that thing. Put in jails and beaten just for distributing these books. Prabhupāda: So there was no legal action? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in the courts. Tripurāri: Some places the police have a conspiracy against our devotees. Prabhupāda: What is our fault? Tripurāri: We have no fault except that we are successful. We are so successful, and they are envious. Prabhupāda: That they don't want. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The people want, but the authorities don't want. Prabhupāda: You have found out? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, I . . . the index is not there, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: There is no index? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No index. First chapter? Prabhupāda: No, how you'll find it? Give me. Unless you have an index list . . . the purport of the verse is that even Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu—He is God himself, Kṛṣṇa Himself—He felt, alone, unable to do this task. He felt. So this is the position. You are cooperating, therefore I am getting the credit. Otherwise, alone what could I do? Ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo. Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself wanted our cooperation. He is God, Kṛṣṇa. And therefore cooperation is very important thing. Nobody should think that, "I have got so great ability. I can do." No. It is simply by cooperation we can do very big thing. "United we stand; divided we fall." This is our . . . so be strong in pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Kṛṣṇa will help. He is the strongest. Still, we must be combined together. Saṅkīrtana. Saṅkīrtana means many men combined together chanting. That is saṅkīrtana . Otherwise kīrtana. Saṅkīrtana. Bahubhir militvā kīrtayeti saṅkīrtana. Bahu. Bahu means many; many combined together. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, combined together. All nations, all persons, they should combine together. There is hope in our Society, combination. There are Hindus; there are Muslims; there are Christians; *there are black, white. Combine them. That looks very beautiful, just like combination of many flowers. There is black flower also. It looks nice, very nice. Each and every flower take alone, it is not beautiful, but when they are combined together, it looks very beautiful. It is attractive. And that is wanted. Because from the spiritual platform we are all working. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Spiritual platform, every one of us, we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. So where is the competition between one servant with another? There is . . . even there is competition, the center is Kṛṣṇa—"Who can serve more?" Therefore that competition is very welcome, because there is no personal interest. Everyone is trying how to serve Kṛṣṇa more. That is wanted. The competition is there in his real form and perverted form. In the real form Kṛṣṇa is the center, and the perverted form, I am the center. I compete with you to satisfy my senses more. What is called? Heliocentric or . . .? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Egocentric. Prabhupāda: Egocentric, yes. This is egocentric. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should be Kṛṣṇa*-centric. Prabhupāda: Yes, then it is perfect. The competition must remain. The others, they say: "Why competition? Make it zero." That is imperfect. But competition to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is reality. *Devotee (3): I found the verse. It's in " Ohe Vaiṣṇava Ṭhākura ." Ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo, hari*-nāma-saṅkīrtane. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, not this verse. What is the meaning? Devotee (3): Meaning is, "I do not find the strength to carry on alone the saṅkīrtana of the holy name of Hari. Please bless me by giving me just one drop of faith with which one can attain the great treasure of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: So nobody is powerful alone. In Kṛṣṇa's service also, combine together. That is wanted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think there is no question of being alone anywhere, because the guru is always with one. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the ideal. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Guru is also depending, and combination means I depend on you, you depend on me, that's all. That is combination. That's all. So, prasādam ? Now we are fasting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are fasting. Prabhupāda: In the evening there will be prasādam . Arrangement is being made for? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are taking very nice care of us here, Prabhupāda. Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! Prabhupāda: Next year it will be very nice. Our these rooms will be complete. I think this year also, not very much inconvenience. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not at all. *Prabhupāda: In Bengali there is a proverb, "If you are good men, then you can accommodate yourself lying in a leaf of the tamarind." You know the tamarind leaf? That is the smallest leaf of the tree. Big tree, and the leaf is very small. Yodi hao sujan, tetul patay na*-jan. (If people have a good relationship then in a tamarind life, nine people can stay together.) And just contrary to that. These are American tape recorder or Japanese? Devotee: Japanese. Prabhupāda: All right. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! (offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Take this apple and cut into pieces. Devotees: Prabhupāda ki jaya! *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. All glories to the saṅkīrtana party, Rādhā*-Dāmodara. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Jaya . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, we signed only the two top checks. The rest we left blank so you can do whatever you want. You can fill in whatever you want on the inside. Prabhupāda: That is good. (end) *(Conversation With Radha*-Damodara Sankirtana Party) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Some men can come through the other room and stand out here. Devotee: Some devotees are going to have to go around. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You lead them, Gargamuni. Prabhupāda: Get this fan on. Fan and lights. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fan and lights. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: On behalf of all the bhaktas and Rādhā Dāmodara, we'd like to offer you this dakṣiṇā . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya . *Prabhupāda: You know, if Kṛṣṇa is virāḍ*-rūpa —so big mouth, so big belly—that, whatever you give, that is not sufficient. (chuckles) So here we are spreading Kṛṣṇa's mouth very widespread. Here is the plan for Māyāpur temple. This is the . . . this is only residential quarter. Real temple is not yet constructed. It will occupy 350 acres of land. So you are the pillars of this construction work. We are doing all your construction work on your contribution. So go on preaching and distributing books. If we get the . . . we are . . . books are . . . as your pushing on the sale is very nice, then the customers are also nice. These are American Express? No, no. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Barclay's Bank. Prabhupāda: Now everyone is issuing these traveler's check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But these are issued differently. In American Express, they charge some money, but these are freely given. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Then why the American Express will remain if people will go there? Free service to the constituent, those who are customer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think even to those who are not the constituents also. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . The public also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This happens to be our bank that we deal with. Prabhupāda: Barclay Bank is big bank, American bank. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This Ādi*-keśava Swami, his grandfather is Mr. Barclay. (laughter) Prabhupāda: It is grandfather's bank? *Ādi*-keśava: Great-uncle. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Great*-uncle. Prabhupāda: You are Mr. Barclay also? No. *Ādi*-keśava: Different name. Prabhupāda: So our . . . they are accommodated in how many buses? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Currently in six buses and six airports, because Tripurāri Mahārāja leads about twenty*-five men distributing in different airports around the country, and then there's another hundred men who are working out of six buses. Now two more buses are being built to accommodate everyone. And then another ten men are working at our bus construction head office. Prabhupāda: So, of course, you are not going to be absent for many, many days. You come and go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There won't be any difficulty, because every . . . Prabhupāda: They are trained up. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . training, that is the real perfection. And our Tripurāri Mahārāja is there, and Viṣṇujana Mahārāja. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja is very expert, and Madhudviṣa Swami will be helping them. *Prabhupāda: A devotee's one qualification is dakṣa, dakṣa, expert. Out of the twenty*-six qualifications, a devotee is always very expert in dealing. It is not that because they have left anything material, they do not know how to deal with material things. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī did it. Perhaps you know the story. Political. Although he had nothing to do with material things, when there was a political gain, he tackled it very nicely when he was young man. But devotee, although not interested in material things, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake they deal with material things very expertly. That should be the qualification of a devotee: expert. Not that, "I have nothing to do with these material things." No. The devotee's vision is: in everything there is Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. Just like we are using this Dictaphone and tape record. It is material things. Sometimes they accuse that, "You are against material things. Why you are using these material advantages?" Do they not? You do not meet such men? *Ādi*-keśava: Yes. *Prabhupāda: But for us there is nothing material. We have no such vision as "material" and "spiritual." Material means when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right. That is material. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram ( BG 5.29). He is the proprietor, He is the enjoyer. So, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything Kṛṣṇa's. So when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right on everything, that is material. Otherwise there is nothing material; everything spiritual. Everything is generated by Kṛṣṇa's energies, and there are two energies: material energy and spiritual energy. So in the material energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is less or nil. And in spiritual energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is prominent and very acute. I think I give this example somewhere—just like this nail, and just little below, there is skin. Both of them are my body, but in the skin there is sensation; *in the nail there is no sensation. But both of them are coming from the same source, the body. Similarly, everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ (SB 1.5.20). Everything is Bhagavān, but it appears like different to the different vision. Therefore we take everything, kṛṣṇa*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.26). Everything . . . in everything there is Kṛṣṇa's relationship. So there is no question of giving it up. Why shall I give it up? This is Kṛṣṇa's property. Why shall I give it up, prāpañcikatayā buddhyā , by mistaking it as material? Kṛṣṇa-sambandhi-vastunaḥ . So these Māyāvādīs, they say the brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā : "This material world is false, and Brahman is reality." And we don't say that. Everything is reality because it comes from reality. When it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is unreality. It is not properly being used. Otherwise there is no such thing as unreality, because it is coming from reality. So why shall I give it up, tyāga ? Neither tyāga , neither bhoga . Everything utilize for Kṛṣṇa. This is our way. Any question on this regard? I saw your wife also. She is here. Bhagavān: Yes. She is here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Practically all of these devotees are so much dedicated to book distribution that they are going out now nearly seven days a week, without stoppage. Prabhupāda: Utsāhān . *Utsāhā is the basic principle, utsāhān and sādhu*-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), association of sādhu . Simply utsāhān and the association is not sādhu —then it is material. Utsāhā means association of sādhu. Sādhu means devotee. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). Who is sādhu ? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. One who has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa, he is sādhu . So the association of such sādhu . . . sādhu, sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge . Whatever a sādhu does, there is no fault. Everything is right. But still, because we are in this material world, we shall act in such a way that nobody can accuse us. Sato vṛtteḥ. Sādhu is above all this vṛtta , but still, you keep pace with the material world; otherwise your activities will be hampered. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has said sato vṛtti : "The dealings should be very honest." Sato vṛtteḥ sādhu saṅge, ṣaḍbhiḥ , six items. Utsāhān , enthusiasm; dhairyāt , patience. Utsāhān dhairyāt niścayāt , with confidence. So enthusiasm, patience, confidence. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt. *Prabhupāda: Tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt . You have to act according to the prescribed way, and sato vṛtteḥ , and dealings very honest, and sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83). Everything perfect. So where you are all staying? In new quarters? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we have been very fortunate. They have given us . . . just as you have this wing, they have given us the whole wing on the next floor above. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very comfortably situated. *Prabhupāda: Everything, water supply, everything is there? In the beginning I thought that "Such a big building. Who will come and live here?" (laughter) It is that Matsyāvatāra. You know Matsyāvatāra? Keśava dhṛta*-mīna-śarīra, jaya jagadīśa hare . That one muni , he took water in his pot. He saw a fish. So after some time he saw the fish has grown, that it cannot be kept in that kamaṇḍalu . Then he gave more space. Then after some . . . he saw, he has . . . "It is filled up." Again more, again more. Then he threw it in the ocean, and again still big. (chuckles) That is Kṛṣṇa. Pralaya-payodhi-jale dhṛtavān asi vedam . And do you know this song: *Similarly, Varāha*-mūrti also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? When I was very young, in the house I was living in, my friend, his father was from Louisiana, where they have many alligators. This was in New York. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Louisiana means near . . . around Florida. Prabhupāda: Oh. Many . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Alligators, crocodiles. Prabhupāda: Crocodile. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So one day his father brought him two little crocodiles as a pet back to New York, where we were living. So he was keeping them in the bathtub. But just as you described, they started to grow, and eventually they became so big that he had to keep them in the house, and then they were running. And anyone that would come in, they would run. (laughter) Finally they had . . . Prabhupāda: Very ferocious. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had to give them to the zoo, New York Zoo. Prabhupāda: But I understand they can be tamed also. Is it possible? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think so. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Miami where I grew up, they used to have crocodile fights. What they would do, they would feed the crocodiles until they were completely sleepy, then they would fight with them . . . Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . so they couldn't move around so quick. Devotee (2): Sometimes they take their teeth out. *Prabhupāda: Then what remains? The teeth is dangerous. Yes. How condemned life. And we had to pass through all these. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). Nine lakhs of forms in the water. Crocodile is one of these. Just see how accurate is Vedic information. Never says: "Ten lakhs " or "Eight lakhs ." Nine lakhs . Now, if you don't believe, count. Go ahead. Count. How this knowledge is there? Nobody can go within the water to count how many forms are there, but how the Vedas gives the knowledge perfectly? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. This is Vedic knowledge. Where you cannot reach, and you refer to Vedas , you'll get the knowledge. That is Vedas , perfect knowledge. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi . Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given the example: stool is impure, rejectable. Everyone knows. Veda says: "No, cow dung is pure." And you examine it, you'll find it is pure. That is Vedic knowledge. When you get information from the Vedas , it is perfectly right. So it is easier to take knowledge from the Vedas . Then you'll become perfect in knowledge. There is no question of researching. That is not possible. What you'll research? How many animals are there, aquatics are there, in the water? It is beyond your experience. Is there any scientist who can go within the water and count how many aquatic forms are there? Nothing you can do. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣā viṁśati. What information we have got? Even you cannot speak perfectly well about this universe. We are not able even to speak perfectly what is there in the moon planet. They are going, trying to go, and coming back. And still, they are claiming perfection, as perfect as God. Just see how lunatic they are. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that the newly initiated brāhmaṇas have to come now. Maybe we should . . . Prabhupāda: So some meeting is not going to be held, down? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there's constantly kīrtanas and discourses. Prabhupāda: Lecture. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lectures and kīrtanas . Prabhupāda: Kīrtanas . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's soldier to fight with māyā . Devotees: Jaya! *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are our commander*-in-chief, Prabhupāda. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself says, ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo (Ohe Vaiṣṇava Ṭhākura). When He . . . in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta you have seen? In the first part you can find out this verse, ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo . Devotee: There's a song like that also. Prabhupāda: What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says it may be in a song also, one of the Vaiṣṇava songs. Prabhupāda: The first part. Here, this is first part of the . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Look in the index in the back. Prabhupāda: Index. You can read it. So you are reading books also. Not selling, but reading also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really they are soldiers, because many of them have been very severely beaten by police authorities and others during the distribution. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The men who are here now in this room, some of them have been put in jails . . . (aside) Watch out for that thing. Put in jails and beaten just for distributing these books. Prabhupāda: So there was no legal action? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in the courts. Tripurāri: Some places the police have a conspiracy against our devotees. Prabhupāda: What is our fault? Tripurāri: We have no fault except that we are successful. We are so successful, and they are envious. Prabhupāda: That they don't want. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The people want, but the authorities don't want. Prabhupāda: You have found out? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, I . . . the index is not there, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: There is no index? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No index. First chapter? Prabhupāda: No, how you'll find it? Give me. Unless you have an index list . . . the purport of the verse is that even Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu—He is God himself, Kṛṣṇa Himself—He felt, alone, unable to do this task. He felt. So this is the position. You are cooperating, therefore I am getting the credit. Otherwise, alone what could I do? Ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo. Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself wanted our cooperation. He is God, Kṛṣṇa. And therefore cooperation is very important thing. Nobody should think that, "I have got so great ability. I can do." No. It is simply by cooperation we can do very big thing. "United we stand; divided we fall." This is our . . . so be strong in pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Kṛṣṇa will help. He is the strongest. Still, we must be combined together. Saṅkīrtana. Saṅkīrtana means many men combined together chanting. That is saṅkīrtana . Otherwise kīrtana. Saṅkīrtana. Bahubhir militvā kīrtayeti saṅkīrtana. Bahu. Bahu means many; many combined together. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, combined together. All nations, all persons, they should combine together. There is hope in our Society, combination. There are Hindus; there are Muslims; there are Christians; *there are black, white. Combine them. That looks very beautiful, just like combination of many flowers. There is black flower also. It looks nice, very nice. Each and every flower take alone, it is not beautiful, but when they are combined together, it looks very beautiful. It is attractive. And that is wanted. Because from the spiritual platform we are all working. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Spiritual platform, every one of us, we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. So where is the competition between one servant with another? There is . . . even there is competition, the center is Kṛṣṇa—"Who can serve more?" Therefore that competition is very welcome, because there is no personal interest. Everyone is trying how to serve Kṛṣṇa more. That is wanted. The competition is there in his real form and perverted form. In the real form Kṛṣṇa is the center, and the perverted form, I am the center. I compete with you to satisfy my senses more. What is called? Heliocentric or . . .? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Egocentric. Prabhupāda: Egocentric, yes. This is egocentric. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should be Kṛṣṇa*-centric. Prabhupāda: Yes, then it is perfect. The competition must remain. The others, they say: "Why competition? Make it zero." That is imperfect. But competition to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is reality. *Devotee (3): I found the verse. It's in " Ohe Vaiṣṇava Ṭhākura ." Ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo, hari*-nāma-saṅkīrtane. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, not this verse. What is the meaning? Devotee (3): Meaning is, "I do not find the strength to carry on alone the saṅkīrtana of the holy name of Hari. Please bless me by giving me just one drop of faith with which one can attain the great treasure of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: So nobody is powerful alone. In Kṛṣṇa's service also, combine together. That is wanted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think there is no question of being alone anywhere, because the guru is always with one. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the ideal. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Guru is also depending, and combination means I depend on you, you depend on me, that's all. That is combination. That's all. So, prasādam ? Now we are fasting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are fasting. Prabhupāda: In the evening there will be prasādam . Arrangement is being made for? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are taking very nice care of us here, Prabhupāda. Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! Prabhupāda: Next year it will be very nice. Our these rooms will be complete. I think this year also, not very much inconvenience. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not at all. *Prabhupāda: In Bengali there is a proverb, "If you are good men, then you can accommodate yourself lying in a leaf of the tamarind." You know the tamarind leaf? That is the smallest leaf of the tree. Big tree, and the leaf is very small. Yodi hao sujan, tetul patay na*-jan. (If people have a good relationship then in a tamarind life, nine people can stay together.) And just contrary to that. These are American tape recorder or Japanese? Devotee: Japanese. Prabhupāda: All right. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! (offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Take this apple and cut into pieces. Devotees: Prabhupāda ki jaya! *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. All glories to the saṅkīrtana party, Rādhā*-Dāmodara. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Jaya . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, we signed only the two top checks. The rest we left blank so you can do whatever you want. You can fill in whatever you want on the inside. Prabhupāda: That is good. (end) (Conversation in Bengali) Edit in progress . . . (translated from Bengali) Jayapatāka: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (Conversation in Bengali) Edit in progress . . . (translated from Bengali) Jayapatāka: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *(at Radha*-Govinda Mandir) *Prabhupāda: Ami . . . meye der ektu asubidha hoy. (I . . . girls are a little inconvenienced.) This Rādhā*-Govinda Deity is very old Deity of the Mullik family. I think not less than two hundred years ago this Deity was established by the mother of Kashinath Mullik. I think you might have heard, another Kashi . . . original Kashinath Mullik. I think his father's name was Gaura Mohan Mullik. Am I right? Indian man: Citra Dasi. *Prabhupāda: Citra Dasi. No. No, Kashinath Mullik's father? So gradually this whole quarters belonged to this Mullik family. Still in front of this temple there is Gangara building. That is also the property of Rādhā*-Govinda. And as I have shown in coming, our house was just behind the present Govinda Bhavan. And we had the opportunity of seeing this Rādhā-Govinda from very childhood. When I was three or four years old I used to visit this Rādhā-Govinda daily. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Rādhā*-Govinda! Jaya Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: And that is the inspiration of my devotional life. Then I asked my father that, "Give me Rādhā-Govinda Deity, I shall worship." So my father was also Vaiṣṇava. He gave me small Rādhā-Govinda Deity. I was worshiping in my house. Whatever I was eating, I was offering, and I was following the ceremonies of this Rādhā-Govinda with my small Deity. That Deity is still existing. I have given to my sister. So then I introduced Ratha-yātrā. So I . . . my Ratha-yātrā was being performed very gloriously. My father used to spend money. In those days ten rupees, twenty rupees was sufficient. I hired one kīrtana party, and a small friends, they . . . I think the brother of the present generation, and there was another De family here, so we performed this Ratha-yātrā ceremony. According to our children's imagination, it was very gorgeous. So I think our present Manmohan . . . his name is? Babur baba? Dada masai? (Father or babu? The grandfather?) Gopishvara Mullik. That Gopishvara Mullik was my father's friend. So he was criticizing my father that, "You are performing Ratha-yātrā ceremony and you are not inviting us." (laughter) So my father said, "That is children's play. What shall I invite you? You are very big man." So, "Oh, so you are avoiding. In the name of children you are avoiding us." On the whole, this Ratha-yātrā festival was very gorgeously . . . then imitating me, the other, my brother like, Kangalu, he also introduced Ratha-yātrā. And . . . Kangalu. Hya, (Yes,) So all of them introduced Ratha-yātrā, and the destination was this Ṭhākurbari, from there. So practically what I am doing now, the same thing, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. I am not doing anything else. You know very well. We are now performing Ratha-yātrā ceremony practically in all big cities of the world: in San Francisco, in . . . Hari-śauri: Philadelphia. Prabhupāda: Philadelphia, London . . . Hari-śauri: Melbourne. Prabhupāda: Melbourne, Australia . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Paris. *Prabhupāda: Paris. So the same thing, the same Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship temples and same Ratha-yātrā, in a bigger scale. But the same thing was begun as play from this quarter, this Ṭhākurbari. Indian man: Year 1970. Sattor sale, suru korlen ekhane. (In the year 1970, you have started here.) Prabhupāda: Na, na. (No, no.) I began my . . . I think from 1904 or '5, from my very childhood. Indian man: Oh, childhood. Prabhupāda: Yes. At that time perhaps you were not born. (laughter) What is your age now? What is the birth of date? *Indian man: Fifty*-five. *Prabhupāda: Fifty*-five. That means in 1920 you were born? Indian man: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So anyway, this Ṭhākurbari, Rādhā-Govindajī, is my life. That is the beginning of my this spiritual life. And after so many years, still Rādhā-Govindajī has dragged me. So it is His kindness. So the beginning was the same thing—worship of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. That is I am doing in a bigger scale and a wider scale all over the world. So it is nothing new. So in the one sense, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sanjāyate ( BG 6.41). So although I was not belonging to this family . . . or perhaps originally we belonged to this family, because they are also De, we are De, but practically I was born in this family, and śucīnāṁ śrīmatām. And my father was a very pure Vaiṣṇava. So these opportunities we got; *now it is developed in a wider scale. It is all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement, maybe from my previous life. But you are cooperating, you American and European, so we are spreading the mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, this mission, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa mission it is practically. Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya, rādhā*-kṛṣṇa nahe anya (Śrī Guru-paramparā, text 6). Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is combination of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. *Rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir asmād (CC Adi 1.5). Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, the same Absolute Truth. Rādhārāṇī is the pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa wants to enjoy, He expands His pleasure potency in the form of Rādhārāṇī. And when He wants to spread the loving affairs of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, He takes the form of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and very kindly He gives the love of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has offered Him obeisances, namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). To understand Kṛṣṇa, it takes long, long duration of life. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). And to understand the love of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, it is not so easy thing. But by the grace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu we are understanding kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te . So it is now spreading all over the world. So this is . . . about this movement it may be this Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā-Govinda Deity is the . . . what is called? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Inspiration? Prabhupāda: Inspiration. So you are all fortunate that you have come here. So let us offer our obeisances. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! (break) (in car) Hari-śauri: Those Deities are very nicely looked after, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: The Deities. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: They are very nicely cared for. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is my inspiration, this Deity. Abhirāma: Should we have some program with these Mulliks sometimes? Visit? Prabhupāda: No, no. Our house was here. I am coming almost daily, on every moment. I was playing here. They were all my playmates. The whole this, from that street to this street, that was our house, home. Here is the pharmacy, that Kailash Pharmacy. That was very old. Our limit was coming up to this road and up to that Chitpur Road. Abhirāma: Your father would not let you go any farther than this? *Prabhupāda: In those days who cared for the father? We were coming and . . . it was not so congested. There was a riot, Hindu*-Muslim riot. This quarter is Muslim quarter. Oh, in 1911 that was a dangerous day. Perhaps I would have been killed. Riot. Very big riot. This was my school here, this building. This was my school. And college was Scottish Churches. In this ground we used to play football. Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You used to take Jagannātha right through the streets? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How far would you carry Jagannātha? *Prabhupāda: From our house to this Ṭhākurbari, Rādhā*-Govinda's, coming and going with procession of children and khola, karatāla and everything. Prasādam distribution, everything was there. My father used to encourage. And in those days if my father would spend twenty-five rupees, it was a great festival. Why not? In those days, fifty, sixty years ago, the money value was at least twenty times. So if my father was spending at that time twenty rupees, now it is at least four hundred rupees. So for a children's play four hundred rupees is not a small amount. Abhirāma: At least fifty dollars in American. Prabhupāda: Yes. So my father used to pay. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You hired a saṅkīrtana party? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only two rupees. That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Our young children are very fortunate also. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Our young children. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Very fortunate. That a small child, he'll take little grain of prasādam . He will not touch the big halavā . As soon as I'll give him a little grain, he'll take. Very nice. (break) Abhirāma: (much traffic noise) . . . travel on a coach like this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes, in our childhood. Not so bad. At that time it was not so bad. In 1925 I purchased one Buick car. In our childhood days there was no electricity, and there was no motorcar. No. The tram car was drawn by horses in Calcutta. (break) . . . quarter where our temple is situated. This is the best . . . (break) (end) *(at Radha*-Govinda Mandir) *Prabhupāda: Ami . . . meye der ektu asubidha hoy. (I . . . girls are a little inconvenienced.) This Rādhā*-Govinda Deity is very old Deity of the Mullik family. I think not less than two hundred years ago this Deity was established by the mother of Kashinath Mullik. I think you might have heard, another Kashi . . . original Kashinath Mullik. I think his father's name was Gaura Mohan Mullik. Am I right? Indian man: Citra Dasi. *Prabhupāda: Citra Dasi. No. No, Kashinath Mullik's father? So gradually this whole quarters belonged to this Mullik family. Still in front of this temple there is Gangara building. That is also the property of Rādhā*-Govinda. And as I have shown in coming, our house was just behind the present Govinda Bhavan. And we had the opportunity of seeing this Rādhā-Govinda from very childhood. When I was three or four years old I used to visit this Rādhā-Govinda daily. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Rādhā*-Govinda! Jaya Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: And that is the inspiration of my devotional life. Then I asked my father that, "Give me Rādhā-Govinda Deity, I shall worship." So my father was also Vaiṣṇava. He gave me small Rādhā-Govinda Deity. I was worshiping in my house. Whatever I was eating, I was offering, and I was following the ceremonies of this Rādhā-Govinda with my small Deity. That Deity is still existing. I have given to my sister. So then I introduced Ratha-yātrā. So I . . . my Ratha-yātrā was being performed very gloriously. My father used to spend money. In those days ten rupees, twenty rupees was sufficient. I hired one kīrtana party, and a small friends, they . . . I think the brother of the present generation, and there was another De family here, so we performed this Ratha-yātrā ceremony. According to our children's imagination, it was very gorgeous. So I think our present Manmohan . . . his name is? Babur baba? Dada masai? (Father or babu? The grandfather?) Gopishvara Mullik. That Gopishvara Mullik was my father's friend. So he was criticizing my father that, "You are performing Ratha-yātrā ceremony and you are not inviting us." (laughter) So my father said, "That is children's play. What shall I invite you? You are very big man." So, "Oh, so you are avoiding. In the name of children you are avoiding us." On the whole, this Ratha-yātrā festival was very gorgeously . . . then imitating me, the other, my brother like, Kangalu, he also introduced Ratha-yātrā. And . . . Kangalu. Hya, (Yes,) So all of them introduced Ratha-yātrā, and the destination was this Ṭhākurbari, from there. So practically what I am doing now, the same thing, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. I am not doing anything else. You know very well. We are now performing Ratha-yātrā ceremony practically in all big cities of the world: in San Francisco, in . . . Hari-śauri: Philadelphia. Prabhupāda: Philadelphia, London . . . Hari-śauri: Melbourne. Prabhupāda: Melbourne, Australia . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Paris. *Prabhupāda: Paris. So the same thing, the same Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship temples and same Ratha-yātrā, in a bigger scale. But the same thing was begun as play from this quarter, this Ṭhākurbari. Indian man: Year 1970. Sattor sale, suru korlen ekhane. (In the year 1970, you have started here.) Prabhupāda: Na, na. (No, no.) I began my . . . I think from 1904 or '5, from my very childhood. Indian man: Oh, childhood. Prabhupāda: Yes. At that time perhaps you were not born. (laughter) What is your age now? What is the birth of date? *Indian man: Fifty*-five. *Prabhupāda: Fifty*-five. That means in 1920 you were born? Indian man: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So anyway, this Ṭhākurbari, Rādhā-Govindajī, is my life. That is the beginning of my this spiritual life. And after so many years, still Rādhā-Govindajī has dragged me. So it is His kindness. So the beginning was the same thing—worship of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. That is I am doing in a bigger scale and a wider scale all over the world. So it is nothing new. So in the one sense, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sanjāyate ( BG 6.41). So although I was not belonging to this family . . . or perhaps originally we belonged to this family, because they are also De, we are De, but practically I was born in this family, and śucīnāṁ śrīmatām. And my father was a very pure Vaiṣṇava. So these opportunities we got; *now it is developed in a wider scale. It is all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement, maybe from my previous life. But you are cooperating, you American and European, so we are spreading the mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, this mission, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa mission it is practically. Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya, rādhā*-kṛṣṇa nahe anya (Śrī Guru-paramparā, text 6). Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is combination of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. *Rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir asmād (CC Adi 1.5). Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, the same Absolute Truth. Rādhārāṇī is the pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa wants to enjoy, He expands His pleasure potency in the form of Rādhārāṇī. And when He wants to spread the loving affairs of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, He takes the form of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and very kindly He gives the love of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has offered Him obeisances, namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). To understand Kṛṣṇa, it takes long, long duration of life. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). And to understand the love of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, it is not so easy thing. But by the grace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu we are understanding kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te . So it is now spreading all over the world. So this is . . . about this movement it may be this Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā-Govinda Deity is the . . . what is called? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Inspiration? Prabhupāda: Inspiration. So you are all fortunate that you have come here. So let us offer our obeisances. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! (break) (in car) Hari-śauri: Those Deities are very nicely looked after, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: The Deities. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: They are very nicely cared for. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is my inspiration, this Deity. Abhirāma: Should we have some program with these Mulliks sometimes? Visit? Prabhupāda: No, no. Our house was here. I am coming almost daily, on every moment. I was playing here. They were all my playmates. The whole this, from that street to this street, that was our house, home. Here is the pharmacy, that Kailash Pharmacy. That was very old. Our limit was coming up to this road and up to that Chitpur Road. Abhirāma: Your father would not let you go any farther than this? *Prabhupāda: In those days who cared for the father? We were coming and . . . it was not so congested. There was a riot, Hindu*-Muslim riot. This quarter is Muslim quarter. Oh, in 1911 that was a dangerous day. Perhaps I would have been killed. Riot. Very big riot. This was my school here, this building. This was my school. And college was Scottish Churches. In this ground we used to play football. Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You used to take Jagannātha right through the streets? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How far would you carry Jagannātha? *Prabhupāda: From our house to this Ṭhākurbari, Rādhā*-Govinda's, coming and going with procession of children and khola, karatāla and everything. Prasādam distribution, everything was there. My father used to encourage. And in those days if my father would spend twenty-five rupees, it was a great festival. Why not? In those days, fifty, sixty years ago, the money value was at least twenty times. So if my father was spending at that time twenty rupees, now it is at least four hundred rupees. So for a children's play four hundred rupees is not a small amount. Abhirāma: At least fifty dollars in American. Prabhupāda: Yes. So my father used to pay. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You hired a saṅkīrtana party? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only two rupees. That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Our young children are very fortunate also. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Our young children. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Very fortunate. That a small child, he'll take little grain of prasādam . He will not touch the big halavā . As soon as I'll give him a little grain, he'll take. Very nice. (break) Abhirāma: (much traffic noise) . . . travel on a coach like this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes, in our childhood. Not so bad. At that time it was not so bad. In 1925 I purchased one Buick car. In our childhood days there was no electricity, and there was no motorcar. No. The tram car was drawn by horses in Calcutta. (break) . . . quarter where our temple is situated. This is the best . . . (break) (end) *Prabhupāda: They make modernized meaning of Bhagavad*-gītā . That is insanity. Do you agree or . . . *Reporter (1): What would you regard to be the essence of Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā means that there is God, and we are part and parcel of God. God is great, and we are very teeny, small, fragmental portion of God. In quality we and God are the same, just like a drop of ocean water is qualitatively the same as the big ocean. Reporter (1): Beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: Qualitatively is the same. The drop of ocean water is salty, and the whole ocean is also salty. The salt taste is there. But the drop is never equal to the ocean. This is the difference. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś . . . (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). This is the Vedic . . . that He is also living entity as we are. So we many, plural number. "We" means living entities. We are many, and He is one. But He is also living entity. Now where is the difference? The difference is that He maintains the plural number living entities. Reporter (1): He maintains the . . .? Prabhupāda: Plural, plural number. Plural. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Plural. Prabhupāda: Living entities. And the plural number living entities are maintained by Him. Reporter (2): In the past . . . I should start this way . . . this is the first press conference you are holding in Delhi, isn't it? Prabhupāda: You can come forward. Reporter (1): . . . if we can finish this answer, if you don't mind. Reporter (2): Okay. Reporter (1): You said the plural number entities are being maintained by Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like father, and he has got many children. So both of them are living entities, but the father maintains the children, and the children are maintained by God. One is maintaining, and others are being maintained. That means dependent. We are dependent on God, or Kṛṣṇa. Reporter (1): But, sir, aren't we impure and He is pure? Prabhupāda: No, both of them are. The father . . . Reporter (1): But then how do we . . . then why do we commit sins? God doesn't. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we are at the present moment in impure condition. That is material. Therefore the human form of life is a chance to be free from the impurity. Reporter (1): But, sir, if we are drop of the same ocean, why should we be impure at all? Prabhupāda: No, no. We are pure constitutionally. Reporter (1): Then from where does this impurity come? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is . . . just like your are healthy, but wherefrom the disease comes? You are not diseased now, but sometimes disease comes. Wherefrom it comes? So at the present moment we are in diseased condition. This has to be cured. Otherwise we are pure—as pure as God. Reporter (1): Then what is the way to purity? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Bhagavad*-gītā . *Reporter (1): You mean the mere recital of Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Prabhupāda: Not recite, to understand and to act. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prescription. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is the prescription. *Prabhupāda: The whole thing is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Reporter (1): Which particular teachings do you find so uplifting and ennobling for a man? *Prabhupāda: You have read Bhagavad*-gītā ? Reporter (1): Yes, I have . . . I mean, not so thoroughly, but I have in parts. Prabhupāda: So what is that question? Which part? Reporter (1): Which particular teachings you think can purify a man? Because you said the salvation lies in practical teachings of *Gītā* . Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to revive your consciousness that you are part and parcel of God. And the part and parcel of God means to serve God. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body, but it is meant for serving my body. I ask the finger, "Come here"—it is serving me. "Come here", it is scratching. "Pick up the food. Give it to me", he is giving it. This is business of the finger. If the finger cannot carry out my order, then it is diseased. And if he immediately carries out order, then it is healthy. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, we must be ready to give service immediately. Then it is healthy condition. And if we do not, then it is māyā . We are serving. You are serving. Everyone is serving, because our constitution is to serve. Big, big leaders, they are also serving. Anyone you can see. The sun, he is serving. Exactly in the time it is rising, by the order of God. Exactly in time it is setting. So everyone is serving. Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya ( CC Adi 5.142): "Only master is God, and everyone is His servant." But the diseased condition is that when we do not serve God, we serve something else— māyā —and that is diseased condition. Reporter (1): That is . . .? Prabhupāda: Diseased condition. Impure condition. At the present moment we have discovered so many services—national service, communal service, and this service, that service—but nobody is recommending service of God. This is the diseased condition. Therefore we are suffering. Reporter (1): So what do you really mean by arousing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? What does it entail? *Prabhupāda: That means we have to serve Kṛṣṇa. We are serving now non*-Kṛṣṇa. Nothing is non-Kṛṣṇa. Something māyā . Just like dreaming. Dreaming, it is also activity. That is false activity. Reporter (3): Excuse me, may I ask one question if I can, please. You said māyā or disease. Māyā is disease or māyā or many other ailments? By which . . . Prabhupāda: Māyā is a diseased condition. Reporter (3): Māyā is a diseased condition or many other ailments under who the human beings are affected. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (3): Are these bad conditions or ailments not part and parcel of God? Prabhupāda: Yes. But you are suffering. You should admit. Just like a prison department is part and parcel of the government. But who is in the prison, he is suffering. Indian devotee: That's a very good answer. That's a wonderful answer. Reporter (3): Your Divine Grace, would your message be exactly the same for, say, a starving man in India and a Westerner who's got everything that a person needs? Prabhupāda: We say that not only in India, everyone, you'll starve, because you are rebellious to God consciousness. You must starve. That is the punishment. Just like anyone who is a criminal, he must be punished. That is the law of nature. Reporter (2): So by that, I suppose one would presume that people in India have been most rebellious to God. Prabhupāda: Why India? Everywhere. Why you speak India? Reporter (2): Because . . . Prabhupāda: When you speak of God, don't take India, or America or Europe. Everywhere. Reporter (2): No. Because the number of starving men here is much larger. *Prabhupāda: You are starving on account of your economic condition being bad or . . . I cannot say anything. But they are also starving. You are poor by force, and they sometimes accept poverty voluntarily, just like the hippies. They have enough money. They are coming from very rich father and grandfather, but they lie down on the street, and the police comes and kick them, "Hey, get up! Get up!" Why? Why they have accepted this? So this kind of varieties we find everywhere—rich man, middle*-class man and poverty-stricken man. Don't think that it is in India. I am traveling all over the world. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, what do you suggest to your disciples to arouse what you call Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the purificatory process. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . God is so kind. In this age . . . it is meant for every age. Especially this age, when we are so much fallen and so much suffering, and neither we are able to act very piously, therefore this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , if you chant, you gradually become purified. Then you come to your own consciousness. Reporter (1): So how would you define sin? What is impurities, or to sin? Prabhupāda: You cannot understand impurities? *Reporter (1): I mean, give any clear*-cut definition. Prabhupāda: Just like when you are diseased and the doctor gives you some vaccine and injection to cure you, to make you purified. Is it not? *Reporter (1): No, but just like could there be any clear*-cut criterion, for example, to say that I have committed sin or I have not committed sin? What is sin? *Prabhupāda: Clear*-cut criterion is that we living entity, being part and parcel, we are as good as God. But when we are under the control of the material nature, that is our diseased condition. Same example: Just like you, as a good citizen, you are as good as Indira Gandhi. You are Indian; you have got all the rights. But if you become criminal, you put into the prison. So we are in the . . . conditioned state means no freedom. It is not clear? Reporter (1): No, sir, I just wanted you to tell me some yardstick from which one could . . . Prabhupāda: But because you are suffering, that is the sign of impurity. Reporter (1): Beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: Because you are suffering. Do you admit that you are suffering? Do you know this? Reporter (1): Suffering means that there is some impurity. Prabhupāda: No, are you not suffering? Reporter (1): Yes, everybody is. *Prabhupāda: That is diseased condition. Just like diseased con . . . when you have got fever—you are suffering—that is diseased condition. So long you are suffering, you must be aware of the fact that you are in diseased condition. Because you are part and parcel, there is no question of suffering. Sac*-cid-ānanda . . . Reporter (1): But suffering may not necessarily be because of sin. It might be because of something else, you know? Prabhupāda: "Might be something," that is your sinful activities. That, "something" is some sinful activity. Reporter (1): Now a poor man suffers of hunger. This is not sin if he doesn't get proper food or anything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. But how you can help? You cannot help. Just like a prisoner in the . . . suffering in the prison house, you cannot help him. Reporter (1): I may suffer because I have a cancer . . . Prabhupāda: No, first of all you try to understand. Reporter (1): But cancer is not a sin, you know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is sin. Disease means sin. Unless you commit sinful life, there is no question of suffering. Reporter (1): I thought . . . but sin has some relation with . . . Reporter (3): Sometimes the suffering is self brought and sometimes a suffering is brought without self, by nature. *Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no, that is wrong. Every suffering is brought by you—yourself. Just like if you are punished by the high*-court judge to be hanged, you don't make the high-court judge is the cause of your hanging. You made a situation—the high-court judge has given you the judgment that you must be hanged. Reporter (2): Would you tell us something about the Vedic city which is being constructed in Māyāpur? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He wants to know something about the Vedic city which is being constructed in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Yes, not Vedic city. Vedic planetarium. How you got this information? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He had come to our temple earlier. He's already published one article in yesterday's paper. Reporter (1): Which paper? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This morning I have got. Prabhupāda: You must try to understand that we are suffering on account of our sinful activities. Reporter (1): Sir, I am asking what is sinful activity. Prabhupāda: You do not know? Reporter (1): I don't know. Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish. Prabhupāda: If you go on the street and it is, there is, "Keep to the left," as soon as you go to the right, you suffer. Is it not? Immediately you go to the court. Is it not suffering? No, no, just try to understand. Reporter (1): No, sir, I just wanted to ask you . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, why wonder? You just try to understand this common sense, that as soon as you go to the street, if the indication is that you must keep your car on the left side, and as soon as you go to the right side, you become a criminal, immediately. You can say: "What is the wrong? The right side or wrong side, I am driving my car." But it is criminal, you know or not know. Ignorance of law is no excuse. So just similarly there is law of God. So as soon as you violate, you must suffer. You see? Reporter (1): What is that law court? *Prabhupāda: That means you are so ignorant. You are so ignorant. The law of God, law is . . . God is personally speaking, "This is the law, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66)." This is the law. God is speaking personally, and you do not know? And you are advertising very expert in reading Bhagavad-gītā , and you do not know the law? This is going on. Big, big scholars, big, big monkey, they are reading Bhagavad-gītā three hundred times daily, but do not know what is law. This is going on. In Bengali there is a saying: "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." You know the monkey, big monkey, Hanumānjī. He jumped over. So ask any other monkey, "Can you jump?" Melancholy. (laughter) Similarly, big, big scholars of Bhagavad-gītā and do not know what is the law of God. This is going on. Big, big commentary, big, big book, but the law he does not know. Reporter (2): Your Divine Grace, this is actually not very relevant to the press conference, but have you ever met people like the Sai Baba or Bala Yogeshwara or . . . Prabhupāda: Why shall I meet these nonsense? Why shall I meet? What is the business? Fools and rascals may meet them. Why shall I meet? What can I get from them? What is their special value? Tell me, why shall I meet? What is the business I have got to meet him? You are suggesting? Reporter (2): No, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, why shall I meet? Why you expect like that, I shall meet? Reporter (3): He just wanted to know if you have ever met them. They are also . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Why he is . . .? Why he is asking this? What business I have got to meet with them? What shall I get from them? Reporter (2): Just to discuss metaphysics. Prabhupāda: Yes. If I am taking lesson from Kṛṣṇa, why shall I take lesson from such bogus things? Reporter (3): No, they have also been recognized as . . . Prabhupāda: Who recognized? Who recognized? Reporter (3): . . . as exponent of Hindu thought and . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, who recognized? First of all, who recognized? Reporter (3): No, they too have a following in the West. Prabhupāda: That is the defect. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They vote. Just like in big democratic country like America they voted Nixon to become president, and when they found that, "This man is a bogus," they again dragged him down. So this is going on. We vote somebody to the topmost position, and we see that he's a rascal. So therefore we do not advise. We say: "Just take lesson from Kṛṣṇa, who is recognized by everyone." That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't say: "Go to a bogus man and take instruction." We don't say. *Indian devotee: May I interrupt? What Swāmīji has described in all the books—as it exists, no further contribution, no amendment, no interpretation. He has described all what has been written in Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad*-gītā , in its truest form. So no imitation, no representation, no interpretation. Swāmījī has described exactly as it happened. Prabhupāda: And that is being appreciated all over the world. Indian devotee: All over the world that is being appreciated. *Reporter (1): Swāmījī, could you please throw light on your four*-point regulation which you suggest to your disciples? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is pious life. No illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication and no gambling. Reporter (1): No . . .? *Prabhupāda: Gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. So if we want to know God, we must be free from sinful life. This is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If you want to be God conscious, then you must be free from all sinful activities. God is pure. If you want to approach God, then you must be pure. If you remain impure, you cannot understand. Reporter (2): Swāmījī, do you think that there are some people in this country in thousands or maybe tens of thousands who are getting spiritual solace from, say, people like Sai Baba or any of these other people who have interpreted the *Vedas* or who have followers all over the country? Do you think these followers are getting some amount of spiritual solace? Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, do you know what Sai Baba is preaching? Hmm? Do you know? Reporter (2): No. Prabhupāda: Then how you are asking on behalf of Sai Baba? Reporter (2): No, just like that. Just like . . . I am just going . . . I mean, I am very far removed from these . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, why you are interested? Twice, thrice you have said Sai Baba. *Reporter (2): No, anybody. Because he is among the better*-known people. I, I am, I have nothing to do with. *Prabhupāda: So, but better*-known . . . Reporter (2): It could be someone like, say, the Bala Yogeshwara, who also got some kind of following there. *Prabhupāda: That is . . . that has spoiled our India's Vedic culture. Everyone has invented some ways, and they have misled the general people, people, followers. That is the misfortune of modern India. Yes. The standard instruction is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . They do not care to know it. They want to know about the greatness of Bala Yogi, Sai Baba, this bābā , that bābā . That is their misfortune. They give up the real instruction, Bhagavad-gītā , which is accepted by the great ācāryas —Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu—and all over the world, they are not interested to know Bhagavad-gītā , they are interested to know about Sai Baba. Just see the misfortune. Reporter (4): But what would you attribute this to? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What would you attribute this to? What is the cause of this? Prabhupāda: Cause of this? One simple cause is they have become unfortunate. They give up the real thing, and they accept the imitation. So that is their misfortune. If there are two shops, everyone knows, "Here is real gold, and here is imitation gold." And if you go to purchase imitation gold, that is his misfortune. Reporter (4): What is it in your movement which has appealed to the Western world? I believe you have a sizable following in . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, because we are supplying real gold. We are giving real gold. We are not supplying imitation gold. That is the credit. If you supply imitation thing, it may go for some time, but it will not endure. So many svāmīs and yogīs go there, but just these . . . ask these American boys. They don't care for them. Reporter (4): No, but even Mahesh Yogi has a considerable following in America and a lot of Western countries. Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Amongst housewives. Hṛdayānanda: No. Now it is going down, and the followers, they have . . . they will not follow any regulative principles. They will not surrender. Simply . . . they have no actual disciples who are following principles. Indian devotee: Are we going to compare because of the larger following? Do you compare the relative and the unrelative? This is the . . . Reporter (4): I didn't meant to compare Swāmījī's teachings with that of Mahesh Yogi's, but I . . . Prabhupāda: No, how many Mahesh Yogi has brought, disciples like this? Practical, come, come, practical point. Have you seen in India Mahesh Yogi's disciples like . . .? Reporter (4): Well, whenever he comes to Delhi he brings two, three jumbo jets full of disciples. Prabhupāda: This is my answer. Thousands of them are working here on my behalf. Just see their character and behavior. Reporter (3): Swāmījī, may I say something? A magician can create many charismas. But God also create charismas. Who will you compare? The magician charismas or the God's charisma? This is the difference. A magician can also sometimes impress upon people that he has godly powers, but are they the real godly powers as against real godly powers? This is the difference. I have been at least thirty times to America, talked to lot of people. They say if you want to go really for attainment of your soul, you go to ISKCON. Prabhupāda: Even Mahesh Yogi says. Yes. Reporter (3): And if you want to attain your bodily strength . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, actually. One of his secretaries came to us. One of his secretaries, he asked that, "I want real knowledge of God." He said: "Then you go to ISKCON." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's true. Reporter (3): And if you want blissful, pleasureful things, go to either Mahesh Yogi or go to Bala Hathayogi. This is what has been . . . this is what has been impressed upon by knowledgeable people in America. And at least I can say with authority that I have talked with lot of people in America. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say that you can chant some mantra and go on with your sinful life. But the practical result is that people's lives remain the same. They may simply divert themselves from their suffering temporarily. But in reality their condition of life is the same. They're still in a miserable condition of life, whereas Prabhupāda is actually lifting us out of the well of misery to the atmosphere of blissfulness. Prabhupāda: That Mahesh Yogi advertises in the paper, "TM, you don't require any religion, don't require to follow any principles," and so on, so on. But I have got so many strictures—still, they do not go to him—they come to me. He has no stricture, but I have got so many stricture. And it is the report of the Draft Department that, "Why the young men come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? What is the facility?" So they studied. So they reported, "There is no facility, simply rigidity. Still they go there." (laughter) Reporter (4): Do you have any plans of propagating your movement in India? Because you have been for too long working in the West, and I believe India is not getting the benefit of your teaching and your guidance. *Prabhupāda: India is so misguided that it will take some time to come. Because whatever I . . . even if you speak to India, what I shall speak? I'll speak Bhagavad*-gītā . The Bhagavad-gītā was already there, still already there. But India's misfortune is they are so neglectful, they don't take care of Bhagavad-gītā . They'll bring, "Why not Sai Baba? Why not this bābā ? Why not that bābā ?" That is the difficulty. Reporter (4): No, I wanted to ask . . . Prabhupāda: They have become overintelligent. Not simple intelligent but overintelligent. That is . . . they are not overintelligent. That is the, I mean, facility for them. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. That is in the śāstra , in the *Vedas* , in everywhere. But you won't believe it. You'll say: "Why Kṛṣṇa Supreme God? Another . . . here is God. Here is God." Hundreds and thousands of Gods you'll bring. That is the difficulty. Reporter (4): No, do you plan to propagate your message in India? *Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly I plan, but the difficulty is that who is going to accept? The philosophy is already there. Bhagavad*-gītā is already, but who is hearing to take it? Even if I speak, I shall speak, "Read Bhagavad-gītā ," but who will take it? That is the difficulty. They will bring another competition. Indian devotee: What probably he's asking is do we have any positive plans . . . Reporter (4): For spreading the movement in India. Prabhupāda: We have got. We have already planned. Indian devotee: That has been seen in Māyāpur. That has been . . . in Bombay there's a very big temple, we are building, with a center. In . . . (indistinct) . . . Vṛndāvana . . . Prabhupāda: My point is that what I am speaking, it is not unknown to India, but they are so misfortunate that they don't take it. That is the difficulty. So, so unfortunate they have become that they don't take it. What shall I speak in India? The same thing. Reporter (2): So that is all the more reason why your work is needed. *Prabhupāda: No, we are doing. As far as possible, we have got center. The people are so overintelligent, don't take it. "Ah, what Hare Kṛṣṇa? We have heard it. Ah, we have seen Bhagavad*-gītā ." That is . . . if you become neglectful, that is the greatest offense. So India is offender. It is India's philosophy, what I am preaching others. India doesn't require to be known to be aware. It is . . . they already know it, but they won't take it. They have become so unfortunate. That is the difficulty. If you don't take it, then how you'll become rich? Suppose if I give you, "Take this one thousand dollars." But if you don't take it, then what benefit will be there? India's position is like that. Reporter (5): Would you be opening certain schools in India on gurukula pattern? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are trying, but the difficulty, India, is that they are very, very neglectful. Reporter (5): Is the government discouraging in certain . . . Prabhupāda: There is no question of government or . . . the government is people's men. So if you are . . . we are ourselves fools and rascals, the government will also be a set of fools and rascals. And if you are intelligent, the government will be intelligent. Because now it is democracy. You select some men. So don't blame government. You are government. If you are fools, the government are fools. If you are intelligent, the government is intelligent. It is up to you to change; then everything will be all right. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, excuse me, is there any special significance of keeping this bead hidden from the public? *Prabhupāda: Yes, just to follow Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā says, man-manā bhava mad bhaktaḥ : "Always think of Me." So we are thinking, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." Reporter (1): No, I mean, you are keeping it wrapped in a piece of cloth. Prabhupāda: That bead. Reporter (1): Why? Prabhupāda: The bead is pure, so just to keep it aloof from the dust. You see? Just like we keep this drinking water covered. Why? This is common sense. Reporter (1): Just to keep it pure. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pure it is, but still, it is our duty not to treat ordinarily. Reporter (1): Are your disciples supposed to chant the mantra all the time? Prabhupāda: Yes. All my disciple is chanting. Reporter (1): Are they supposed to chant the mantra throughout the day? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter (1): All the time? Prabhupāda: Just like I am talking with you, and as soon as talking stops, I am . . . my hand is going, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā . Reporter (1): Is it possible to talk and also to chant the mantra at the same time? Prabhupāda: Yes. That requires practice. That requires practice. Just like woman is cooking and (s)he is also talking. It does not mean the cooking is going bad. It is practice. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, does this chanting of mantra brings purity or following of your four instructions or regulations which you have told, or both? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. It purifies the heart, yes, the core of the heart. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). This is the effect of chanting. Because everything we are doing on account of dirty heart, so everything is dirty. So if you purify your heart, then everything becomes clear. Reporter (1): How long does it take to purify ourself? Prabhupāda: It takes . . . just like if the dirty things are very fixed up, it takes little more time. Otherwise it takes little time. Reporter (2): Swāmījī, I believe you'll be having certain industries for export also in Māyāpur. May I know if they will be manned by disciples, and if so, do you think that they would be in a much better position to look after these big gośālās and other things than, say, other people would be? *Prabhupāda: If you follow Bhagavad*-gītā , then everything will be followed very nicely. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). And go-rakṣya , this is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā . So if you follow Bhagavad-gītā , then naturally go-rakṣya will be there. And if you read Bhagavad-gītā for some political reason, then slaughterhouse go on. That's all. Instead of go-rakṣya , go-killing. This is going on. Every politician is reading Bhagavad-gītā , but go-rakṣya . . . instead of go-rakṣya , go-hatya . This is going on—no go-rakṣya , but go-hatya . This is going on. Who cares for Kṛṣṇa? This is the misfortune of India. Kṛṣṇa spoke in India, in Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa appeared in India, but Indian people are neglecting. Therefore I say it is a misfortune. It is your own thing. You are neglecting it. Reporter (2): So you want to encourage that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I want that . . . Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken in India. Every Indian should take Bhagavad-gītā very seriously. Then India's fortune will change. But they have rejected Bhagavad-gītā , and they are making their own imagination as the goal of life. So how they will be happy? If you have your father's property, you squander it and then you beg from others, "Give me some money," then how much unfortunate you are, just see. Your father's property, you squandered it. Then you become a beggar and beg from others, "Give me some money, sir." So how much unfortunate you are, just imagine. Reporter (3): When you visited the Soviet Union, Swāmījī, did you find the atmosphere worse than it is in Western countries, say? Are the people . . . Prabhupāda: Everywhere the people are very good, but the leaders are bad. Reporter (3): Did you meet any of them? No. Prabhupāda: Yes. I talked with one of the best leaders, Professor Kotovsky. He is the professor of Indology. I talked with him. I have studied. The people are generally very good. Reporter (3): But did you hold any meetings or anything? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (3): Were they receptive to what you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. I was invited by Professor Kotovsky to talk with him. On my way to Europe I stayed there. So I have studied the people. They are very good, as our Indian people, innocent masses, they are also like that. But they are being sophisticated by their new philosophy, Communism, artificial thing. But they are not happy. They are being forced to accept a philosophy. People are . . . I have seen from their face. They look unhappy. Everything dependent on government. You have to accept. You cannot select your food even. Whatever nonsense things the government will supply, you have to accept, even you don't like it. And for us it was a great difficulty. We could not get rice, could not get flour, neither fruit. Only milk is available, and flesh, as much as you like. So on the whole it was artificial, and people are not happy. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, why do you prohibit this tea or coffee also for your disciples? Prabhupāda: Because it is sinful. Reporter (1): It is sinful? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why should you eat meat? Reporter (6): What about onions and . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, onions is also very agitating. Reporter (1): Sir, why are they sinful? Why are they sinful? Prabhupāda: What sinful? Reporter (1): Why is it sinful to take tea or coffee? Prabhupāda: Because you get intoxication. If you are habituated to take tea, as soon as in your time you don't take, you'll become mad. Reporter (1): You mean this dependency is bad . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, why should we . . .? Reporter (1): . . . or this tea itself is bad? Prabhupāda: If your mind is agitated for something, then you become dependent on that thing. That is the position. Those who are taking tea, they have become so much dependent on tea. Reporter (1): But if I start talking milk I will be equally dependent on milk, sir. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, milk will not. Milk, you take little milk once; that will satisfy. Reporter (4): No, what he says that if he starts taking milk regularly, he'll become dependent. He'll become . . . Prabhupāda: So that much dependent, you must eat something. But you must eat something which is favorable for you. Eatable—everything is eatable. The stool is also eatable. That does not mean you, human being, you go to eat stool. That is meant for the pigs, hogs. You are not hogs and pigs. But if you become . . . if you try to become pigs and hog, then you can become. No discrimination of food means pigs and hogs. And God will give chance to become a hog next life. Reporter (1): Sir, most of your disciples have their heads shaven. Prabhupāda: But if you admit this, that after this life you have to accept another body. Do you accept this? Eh? Reporter (1): I do, sir. *Prabhupāda: Then that body offered to you, is it in your hand? Suppose the next life you are offered a pig's body. Can you say: "No, no, I don't want it"? That is the statement of Bhagavad*-gītā : tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Reporter (1): But how to give up, sir? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (1): How to give up. Prabhupāda: What is give up? Reporter (1): How to give up this tea and coffee to which we are so much habituated? Prabhupāda: That they have given up. Devotee (2): Join the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Just see the example, how they are . . . ask them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you lose your hankering for everything else. Reporter (1): Really? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The higher taste. Prabhupāda: That is the taste of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra ca (SB 11.2.42). As soon as you advance in devotion, you become detestful to the all material enjoyment. Reporter (2): Swāmījī, may I inquire from which class of society people generally come to you in the States? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From which class of society in the United Sates do most of your disciples come? Prabhupāda: You can ask them. I do not know. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All classes. Many educated people as well as people from all different classes, all racial backgrounds. Prabhupāda: No, no. In America, who is uneducated? Hṛdayānanda: Yes, all coming from very nice families, the majority, education. Many, many of them coming from very wealthy families. Prabhupāda: Now, if you should take good family means wealthy family, then America, there is no poor family. There is no question of poverty. So how do you distinguish that he's coming from good family, he's coming from bad family? Poverty is unknown to them. Nobody is uneducated. Then how you distinguish who is bad and who is good? Everyone is good—unless he voluntarily becomes bad, hippie. Otherwise everyone is coming from very good family, rich family, educated family. Reporter (2): Do you have a large number of American Negroes in your movement, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: Not large number, but there are. Reporter (2): Is there any reason why that is so? Prabhupāda: That is . . . there is reason. They are not very much cultured. Reporter (5): Do you have women followers also in this movement? Prabhupāda: Yes. America, men and women have got equal rights. Reporter (1): Sir, whom do you find more responsive to your movement, women or men? Prabhupāda: Everyone. Everyone. They are very fortunate. And I am very much indebted to them because they have helped me. Yes. Reporter (4): Helped in what sense? Prabhupāda: Helped in cooperation. Without their cooperation . . . now, these books I am writing surely, but they are pushing on, even facing great danger. They are helping me in my translating work, in typing, in composing, in printing. Have you got that film, how they are doing? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Hari-śauri: Have you got that film? That book film? Yadubara: I don't have the projector here, Prabhupāda. That suitcase is not here. Prabhupāda: So if we invite them to see it, that how they are helping efficiently with latest machine . . . therefore it has been possible. Otherwise, while in India with great hardship I could publish three books only. Reporter (1): They are very beautifully printed. Reporter (4): Where did the money come from to print such lavish editions of your books? Prabhupāda: The money comes . . . we are selling books daily. Reporter (4): No, but initially you do require a . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (4): Initially it requires some money to print such a lavish book. Prabhupāda: Initially I took some books from here. They are not so nicely printed, but still, I sold them. Then gradually increased. They paid the money, and then . . . they made contributions. One of my student, he first, Jayānanda, he . . . no, first paid me . . . he, he has first paid me five thousand dollars. Then Brahmānanda paid me five thousand dollars. In this way gradually money came. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, you write originally in English, or these books are being translated from some other language into English for you? Prabhupāda: No, translated, but I give my purport. That is . . . they like very much. Present the purport in such a way they can understand it. The original verse is there, but they are explained by me. Reporter (1): Give some critical comments and explanations. Prabhupāda: Yes. That they like. Reporter (2): Does that mean, Swāmījī, that yours is a cultural and educational movement rather than a personal cult. Hṛdayānanda: A cultural and educational movement rather than a personal cult. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is cultural movement, educational movement. It is not so*-called religious movement. Religious movement is sentiment. Generally, religion is taken as a kind of faith but it is not a kind of faith. In . . . I think, in South America that Indian man was asking that, "It is the Hindu faith?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, in South Africa. He was asking, "Is this Hindu faith?" "This cult or that cult?" *Prabhupāda: So just see. He was Hindu gentleman, belonging to the Ārya*-samāj. So three times he said: "Is it Hindu faith?" And what do you mean by Hindu faith? When Kṛṣṇa said, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), is it meant for the Hindus that a child becomes . . . a baby becomes a child, a child becomes a boy, a boy becomes a young man, a young man becomes a old man, and the old man dies, changes this body? Is it meant for the Hindus? The Muhammadans do not become old men or young men? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Christians don't become old men? *Prabhupāda: But such fools there are that Bhagavad*-gītā is speaking, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13)—"It is meant for the Hindus." Just see. Such fools there are. And Kṛṣṇa said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "If you have got enough food grains, then all the living entities are satisfied." Is it meant for the Hindus? So this is going on, "This is Hindu scripture." What do you mean by Hindu scripture? Huh? So they are interpreting in their own way. So Kṛṣṇa is not for the Hindus or the Mussulmans or Christians. He is God. He is everyone. He is for everyone. And it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , sarva-yonīṣu kaunteya mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ (BG 14.4): "In all species of life, as many forms of life are there, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ , I am the seed-giving father of all of them." So where is the question of Hindus? This is going on. Reporter (5): Does it ever happen, Swāmījī, that some disciples of yours may disagree with you on spiritual matters? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. *Prabhupāda: Unless he is a fool. (laughter) Unless he's damn fool, they do not. (laughter) If he's sane and sober, open*-hearted, then he will agree. Not only Hindus. We have got so many Muhammadans also. So unless one is open-minded, sane, intelligent, they cannot understand. Therefore I say the Indians are becoming insane. By the influence of so many rascals they are becoming insane. So that has to be rectified. But insanity is prevailing all over the world, but not so much insanity as in India, that they are rejecting their own things. This is the greatest insanity. Why they are rejecting Bhagavad-gītā ? What is the reason? Tell me, you. Reporter (2): Because of Hindus suffer from basic economic instability. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: Economic instability. *Prabhupāda: Economic? Then why don't you accept the economic program given by Bhagavad*-gītā ? Why don't you accept? Reporter (2): If you would elaborate on that, I would be very much interested. *Prabhupāda: Well, that is . . . it is . . . it is known to everyone. Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Anna. Anna means food grains, eatables. You must produce sufficient food grains. Why you are producing tire tube instead of food grains? And just entering your Delhi from Vṛndāvana, a big Goodyear factory, very big factory. You are producing tire tube, then iron, Goodyear and this and that. Where is food grain? And both sides, the field is vacant. Nobody is going to grow food grain. Then why you'll not starve? It is your fault. You are producing tire tube and iron instrument. You are neglecting agriculture. Then why you shall not suffer for want of food grain? And you are pleading, "Indians are starving." Why shall not starve if they do not follow Bhagavad*-gītā ? They are thinking, "By increasing industry in America . . ." They have got industry, at the same time food grains also. But you are taking to industry without taking care of growing food grains. *Reporter (6): Swāmījī, I would like to know that I feel that your Society, the Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness Society, has a very, very stable economy, and that it is self*-sufficient in itself. Is that so? Hṛdayānanda: Speak a little louder. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is the Hare Kṛṣṇa Society self*-sufficient? Does it have a . . . he understands that our Society has a very stable economy. Is it self-sufficient, our own Hare Kṛṣṇa Society? *Prabhupāda: So don't you think that we are self*-sufficient? We are feeding at least ten thousand devotees daily, but we have no fixed income. Reporter (6): They don't have any fixed income. Prabhupāda: No. None of us have any fixed income, but we are traveling all over the world—New York, London, Calcutta. It is just like going from this quarter to that quarter. Our men are moving like that. Immediately coming, one dozen men from Germany, one dozen from London, and immediately going. We are paying so much money to the airplanes, and we have got so many centers. So how it is going on? Kṛṣṇa's grace. We depend on Kṛṣṇa. Our income, daily collection, is not less than one lakh of rupees, and we are spending everything. Reporter (6): One lakh daily? Prabhupāda: That is minimum. Sometimes we collect five lakhs daily. Reporter (4): What is the way you go about collecting money? *Prabhupāda: That book*-selling. Reporter (6): Only . . . books are the only source of your . . . Prabhupāda: That's it. This question was raised in the Parliament that, "Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they are fabulously rich. Where they get their money?" And the Parliament answer was "They get their money by selling literature." Reporter (6): That means the devotees, Swāmījī, do not contribute to the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Not the devotees purchase. They publish. Those who are intelligent public, they purchase. Reporter (6): They purchase. Right. But do the devotees contribute in any way? *Prabhupāda: Yes. They are contributing their life. We don't get any such life*-sacrificing Indians. These educated boys, rich men's son, they have sacrificed everything for me. And where is Indian? Reporter (6): Swāmījī, do you have certain farms also in America, gośālā ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only one, many. Reporter (6): What else do you have over there besides gurukula schools and things? Prabhupāda: We produce our own milk. In New Vrindavan we are producing . . . you are Nava Bharata Times ? You are, any of you, Nava Bharata Times ? Is there any representative, Nava . . . ? No. Your representative went to New Vrindavan, and he published in the November 1974, I think. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, '74. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they published one big article, Nava Bharata Time , and the heading was, Adhyatmikta ka jamuna aur doodh*-dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (The Yamuna of spirituality and the river of milk and curd is flowing.) (laughter) This was the heading. Actually they gave the photograph of our Deity and activities, everything. You can find out November issue of Nava Bharata in 1974. Reporter (2): But you've virtually given up India as a dead loss, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (2): You've given up India as a dead loss, isn't it, in the sense . . . Prabhupāda: Dead loss? Dead loss . . . but the leaders are dead loss. Misleaders. They have given up their own culture, and they are trying to imitate others. Reporter (6): Swāmījī, when there was discussion in Parliament about the fabulous money that the movement has, Society has, then who provided the answers? Prabhupāda: The Home Member. Reporter (6): The Minister. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We have a copy of this in Bombay, the question number and . . . it was about two, three years ago. Reporter (6): They must have done intensive research and things like that. Prabhupāda: The other member, they raised the question. They brought the charges that the Americans are CIA. What is that? CIA, or not? What is? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. CIA. *Prabhupāda: The CIA have become Vaiṣṇava and given up meat*-eating and dancing with me, and they have no other means. (laughter) Just see how foolish question it is. The CIA men have come to me for inquiry. This question, rascal questions, are put. Such unfortunate insanity is prevailing in India. (laughter) The American CIA, they have come to me. Just see. Reporter (6): Swāmījī, would you print that it is legitimate for the government to say that certain undesirable . . . Prabhupāda: Don't bring in government now. It is emergency. (laughter) Put ordinary question. Don't bring in government. Reporter (6): No, but have you been troubled by any undesirable elements? *Prabhupāda: No, no. We are clean. Why shall we be . . .? But if you want to put us in trouble, you can do it. We are preaching . . . our signboard is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why do you misunderstand? And we are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. You have got our book. Still if you misunderstand, that is our misfortune. What can I do? Reporter (4): Thank you very much indeed, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to have a look at some of our books? Hari-śauri: We have some refreshments also if you want. (end) *Prabhupāda: They make modernized meaning of Bhagavad*-gītā . That is insanity. Do you agree or . . . *Reporter (1): What would you regard to be the essence of Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā means that there is God, and we are part and parcel of God. God is great, and we are very teeny, small, fragmental portion of God. In quality we and God are the same, just like a drop of ocean water is qualitatively the same as the big ocean. Reporter (1): Beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: Qualitatively is the same. The drop of ocean water is salty, and the whole ocean is also salty. The salt taste is there. But the drop is never equal to the ocean. This is the difference. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś . . . (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). This is the Vedic . . . that He is also living entity as we are. So we many, plural number. "We" means living entities. We are many, and He is one. But He is also living entity. Now where is the difference? The difference is that He maintains the plural number living entities. Reporter (1): He maintains the . . .? Prabhupāda: Plural, plural number. Plural. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Plural. Prabhupāda: Living entities. And the plural number living entities are maintained by Him. Reporter (2): In the past . . . I should start this way . . . this is the first press conference you are holding in Delhi, isn't it? Prabhupāda: You can come forward. Reporter (1): . . . if we can finish this answer, if you don't mind. Reporter (2): Okay. Reporter (1): You said the plural number entities are being maintained by Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like father, and he has got many children. So both of them are living entities, but the father maintains the children, and the children are maintained by God. One is maintaining, and others are being maintained. That means dependent. We are dependent on God, or Kṛṣṇa. Reporter (1): But, sir, aren't we impure and He is pure? Prabhupāda: No, both of them are. The father . . . Reporter (1): But then how do we . . . then why do we commit sins? God doesn't. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we are at the present moment in impure condition. That is material. Therefore the human form of life is a chance to be free from the impurity. Reporter (1): But, sir, if we are drop of the same ocean, why should we be impure at all? Prabhupāda: No, no. We are pure constitutionally. Reporter (1): Then from where does this impurity come? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is . . . just like your are healthy, but wherefrom the disease comes? You are not diseased now, but sometimes disease comes. Wherefrom it comes? So at the present moment we are in diseased condition. This has to be cured. Otherwise we are pure—as pure as God. Reporter (1): Then what is the way to purity? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Bhagavad*-gītā . *Reporter (1): You mean the mere recital of Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Prabhupāda: Not recite, to understand and to act. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prescription. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is the prescription. *Prabhupāda: The whole thing is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Reporter (1): Which particular teachings do you find so uplifting and ennobling for a man? *Prabhupāda: You have read Bhagavad*-gītā ? Reporter (1): Yes, I have . . . I mean, not so thoroughly, but I have in parts. Prabhupāda: So what is that question? Which part? Reporter (1): Which particular teachings you think can purify a man? Because you said the salvation lies in practical teachings of *Gītā* . Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to revive your consciousness that you are part and parcel of God. And the part and parcel of God means to serve God. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body, but it is meant for serving my body. I ask the finger, "Come here"—it is serving me. "Come here", it is scratching. "Pick up the food. Give it to me", he is giving it. This is business of the finger. If the finger cannot carry out my order, then it is diseased. And if he immediately carries out order, then it is healthy. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, we must be ready to give service immediately. Then it is healthy condition. And if we do not, then it is māyā . We are serving. You are serving. Everyone is serving, because our constitution is to serve. Big, big leaders, they are also serving. Anyone you can see. The sun, he is serving. Exactly in the time it is rising, by the order of God. Exactly in time it is setting. So everyone is serving. Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya ( CC Adi 5.142): "Only master is God, and everyone is His servant." But the diseased condition is that when we do not serve God, we serve something else— māyā —and that is diseased condition. Reporter (1): That is . . .? Prabhupāda: Diseased condition. Impure condition. At the present moment we have discovered so many services—national service, communal service, and this service, that service—but nobody is recommending service of God. This is the diseased condition. Therefore we are suffering. Reporter (1): So what do you really mean by arousing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? What does it entail? *Prabhupāda: That means we have to serve Kṛṣṇa. We are serving now non*-Kṛṣṇa. Nothing is non-Kṛṣṇa. Something māyā . Just like dreaming. Dreaming, it is also activity. That is false activity. Reporter (3): Excuse me, may I ask one question if I can, please. You said māyā or disease. Māyā is disease or māyā or many other ailments? By which . . . Prabhupāda: Māyā is a diseased condition. Reporter (3): Māyā is a diseased condition or many other ailments under who the human beings are affected. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (3): Are these bad conditions or ailments not part and parcel of God? Prabhupāda: Yes. But you are suffering. You should admit. Just like a prison department is part and parcel of the government. But who is in the prison, he is suffering. Indian devotee: That's a very good answer. That's a wonderful answer. Reporter (3): Your Divine Grace, would your message be exactly the same for, say, a starving man in India and a Westerner who's got everything that a person needs? Prabhupāda: We say that not only in India, everyone, you'll starve, because you are rebellious to God consciousness. You must starve. That is the punishment. Just like anyone who is a criminal, he must be punished. That is the law of nature. Reporter (2): So by that, I suppose one would presume that people in India have been most rebellious to God. Prabhupāda: Why India? Everywhere. Why you speak India? Reporter (2): Because . . . Prabhupāda: When you speak of God, don't take India, or America or Europe. Everywhere. Reporter (2): No. Because the number of starving men here is much larger. *Prabhupāda: You are starving on account of your economic condition being bad or . . . I cannot say anything. But they are also starving. You are poor by force, and they sometimes accept poverty voluntarily, just like the hippies. They have enough money. They are coming from very rich father and grandfather, but they lie down on the street, and the police comes and kick them, "Hey, get up! Get up!" Why? Why they have accepted this? So this kind of varieties we find everywhere—rich man, middle*-class man and poverty-stricken man. Don't think that it is in India. I am traveling all over the world. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, what do you suggest to your disciples to arouse what you call Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the purificatory process. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . God is so kind. In this age . . . it is meant for every age. Especially this age, when we are so much fallen and so much suffering, and neither we are able to act very piously, therefore this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , if you chant, you gradually become purified. Then you come to your own consciousness. Reporter (1): So how would you define sin? What is impurities, or to sin? Prabhupāda: You cannot understand impurities? *Reporter (1): I mean, give any clear*-cut definition. Prabhupāda: Just like when you are diseased and the doctor gives you some vaccine and injection to cure you, to make you purified. Is it not? *Reporter (1): No, but just like could there be any clear*-cut criterion, for example, to say that I have committed sin or I have not committed sin? What is sin? *Prabhupāda: Clear*-cut criterion is that we living entity, being part and parcel, we are as good as God. But when we are under the control of the material nature, that is our diseased condition. Same example: Just like you, as a good citizen, you are as good as Indira Gandhi. You are Indian; you have got all the rights. But if you become criminal, you put into the prison. So we are in the . . . conditioned state means no freedom. It is not clear? Reporter (1): No, sir, I just wanted you to tell me some yardstick from which one could . . . Prabhupāda: But because you are suffering, that is the sign of impurity. Reporter (1): Beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: Because you are suffering. Do you admit that you are suffering? Do you know this? Reporter (1): Suffering means that there is some impurity. Prabhupāda: No, are you not suffering? Reporter (1): Yes, everybody is. *Prabhupāda: That is diseased condition. Just like diseased con . . . when you have got fever—you are suffering—that is diseased condition. So long you are suffering, you must be aware of the fact that you are in diseased condition. Because you are part and parcel, there is no question of suffering. Sac*-cid-ānanda . . . Reporter (1): But suffering may not necessarily be because of sin. It might be because of something else, you know? Prabhupāda: "Might be something," that is your sinful activities. That, "something" is some sinful activity. Reporter (1): Now a poor man suffers of hunger. This is not sin if he doesn't get proper food or anything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. But how you can help? You cannot help. Just like a prisoner in the . . . suffering in the prison house, you cannot help him. Reporter (1): I may suffer because I have a cancer . . . Prabhupāda: No, first of all you try to understand. Reporter (1): But cancer is not a sin, you know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is sin. Disease means sin. Unless you commit sinful life, there is no question of suffering. Reporter (1): I thought . . . but sin has some relation with . . . Reporter (3): Sometimes the suffering is self brought and sometimes a suffering is brought without self, by nature. *Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no, that is wrong. Every suffering is brought by you—yourself. Just like if you are punished by the high*-court judge to be hanged, you don't make the high-court judge is the cause of your hanging. You made a situation—the high-court judge has given you the judgment that you must be hanged. Reporter (2): Would you tell us something about the Vedic city which is being constructed in Māyāpur? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He wants to know something about the Vedic city which is being constructed in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Yes, not Vedic city. Vedic planetarium. How you got this information? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He had come to our temple earlier. He's already published one article in yesterday's paper. Reporter (1): Which paper? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This morning I have got. Prabhupāda: You must try to understand that we are suffering on account of our sinful activities. Reporter (1): Sir, I am asking what is sinful activity. Prabhupāda: You do not know? Reporter (1): I don't know. Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish. Prabhupāda: If you go on the street and it is, there is, "Keep to the left," as soon as you go to the right, you suffer. Is it not? Immediately you go to the court. Is it not suffering? No, no, just try to understand. Reporter (1): No, sir, I just wanted to ask you . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, why wonder? You just try to understand this common sense, that as soon as you go to the street, if the indication is that you must keep your car on the left side, and as soon as you go to the right side, you become a criminal, immediately. You can say: "What is the wrong? The right side or wrong side, I am driving my car." But it is criminal, you know or not know. Ignorance of law is no excuse. So just similarly there is law of God. So as soon as you violate, you must suffer. You see? Reporter (1): What is that law court? *Prabhupāda: That means you are so ignorant. You are so ignorant. The law of God, law is . . . God is personally speaking, "This is the law, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66)." This is the law. God is speaking personally, and you do not know? And you are advertising very expert in reading Bhagavad-gītā , and you do not know the law? This is going on. Big, big scholars, big, big monkey, they are reading Bhagavad-gītā three hundred times daily, but do not know what is law. This is going on. In Bengali there is a saying: "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." You know the monkey, big monkey, Hanumānjī. He jumped over. So ask any other monkey, "Can you jump?" Melancholy. (laughter) Similarly, big, big scholars of Bhagavad-gītā and do not know what is the law of God. This is going on. Big, big commentary, big, big book, but the law he does not know. Reporter (2): Your Divine Grace, this is actually not very relevant to the press conference, but have you ever met people like the Sai Baba or Bala Yogeshwara or . . . Prabhupāda: Why shall I meet these nonsense? Why shall I meet? What is the business? Fools and rascals may meet them. Why shall I meet? What can I get from them? What is their special value? Tell me, why shall I meet? What is the business I have got to meet him? You are suggesting? Reporter (2): No, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, why shall I meet? Why you expect like that, I shall meet? Reporter (3): He just wanted to know if you have ever met them. They are also . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Why he is . . .? Why he is asking this? What business I have got to meet with them? What shall I get from them? Reporter (2): Just to discuss metaphysics. Prabhupāda: Yes. If I am taking lesson from Kṛṣṇa, why shall I take lesson from such bogus things? Reporter (3): No, they have also been recognized as . . . Prabhupāda: Who recognized? Who recognized? Reporter (3): . . . as exponent of Hindu thought and . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, who recognized? First of all, who recognized? Reporter (3): No, they too have a following in the West. Prabhupāda: That is the defect. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They vote. Just like in big democratic country like America they voted Nixon to become president, and when they found that, "This man is a bogus," they again dragged him down. So this is going on. We vote somebody to the topmost position, and we see that he's a rascal. So therefore we do not advise. We say: "Just take lesson from Kṛṣṇa, who is recognized by everyone." That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't say: "Go to a bogus man and take instruction." We don't say. *Indian devotee: May I interrupt? What Swāmīji has described in all the books—as it exists, no further contribution, no amendment, no interpretation. He has described all what has been written in Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad*-gītā , in its truest form. So no imitation, no representation, no interpretation. Swāmījī has described exactly as it happened. Prabhupāda: And that is being appreciated all over the world. Indian devotee: All over the world that is being appreciated. *Reporter (1): Swāmījī, could you please throw light on your four*-point regulation which you suggest to your disciples? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is pious life. No illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication and no gambling. Reporter (1): No . . .? *Prabhupāda: Gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. So if we want to know God, we must be free from sinful life. This is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If you want to be God conscious, then you must be free from all sinful activities. God is pure. If you want to approach God, then you must be pure. If you remain impure, you cannot understand. Reporter (2): Swāmījī, do you think that there are some people in this country in thousands or maybe tens of thousands who are getting spiritual solace from, say, people like Sai Baba or any of these other people who have interpreted the *Vedas* or who have followers all over the country? Do you think these followers are getting some amount of spiritual solace? Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, do you know what Sai Baba is preaching? Hmm? Do you know? Reporter (2): No. Prabhupāda: Then how you are asking on behalf of Sai Baba? Reporter (2): No, just like that. Just like . . . I am just going . . . I mean, I am very far removed from these . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, why you are interested? Twice, thrice you have said Sai Baba. *Reporter (2): No, anybody. Because he is among the better*-known people. I, I am, I have nothing to do with. *Prabhupāda: So, but better*-known . . . Reporter (2): It could be someone like, say, the Bala Yogeshwara, who also got some kind of following there. *Prabhupāda: That is . . . that has spoiled our India's Vedic culture. Everyone has invented some ways, and they have misled the general people, people, followers. That is the misfortune of modern India. Yes. The standard instruction is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . They do not care to know it. They want to know about the greatness of Bala Yogi, Sai Baba, this bābā , that bābā . That is their misfortune. They give up the real instruction, Bhagavad-gītā , which is accepted by the great ācāryas —Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu—and all over the world, they are not interested to know Bhagavad-gītā , they are interested to know about Sai Baba. Just see the misfortune. Reporter (4): But what would you attribute this to? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What would you attribute this to? What is the cause of this? Prabhupāda: Cause of this? One simple cause is they have become unfortunate. They give up the real thing, and they accept the imitation. So that is their misfortune. If there are two shops, everyone knows, "Here is real gold, and here is imitation gold." And if you go to purchase imitation gold, that is his misfortune. Reporter (4): What is it in your movement which has appealed to the Western world? I believe you have a sizable following in . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, because we are supplying real gold. We are giving real gold. We are not supplying imitation gold. That is the credit. If you supply imitation thing, it may go for some time, but it will not endure. So many svāmīs and yogīs go there, but just these . . . ask these American boys. They don't care for them. Reporter (4): No, but even Mahesh Yogi has a considerable following in America and a lot of Western countries. Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Amongst housewives. Hṛdayānanda: No. Now it is going down, and the followers, they have . . . they will not follow any regulative principles. They will not surrender. Simply . . . they have no actual disciples who are following principles. Indian devotee: Are we going to compare because of the larger following? Do you compare the relative and the unrelative? This is the . . . Reporter (4): I didn't meant to compare Swāmījī's teachings with that of Mahesh Yogi's, but I . . . Prabhupāda: No, how many Mahesh Yogi has brought, disciples like this? Practical, come, come, practical point. Have you seen in India Mahesh Yogi's disciples like . . .? Reporter (4): Well, whenever he comes to Delhi he brings two, three jumbo jets full of disciples. Prabhupāda: This is my answer. Thousands of them are working here on my behalf. Just see their character and behavior. Reporter (3): Swāmījī, may I say something? A magician can create many charismas. But God also create charismas. Who will you compare? The magician charismas or the God's charisma? This is the difference. A magician can also sometimes impress upon people that he has godly powers, but are they the real godly powers as against real godly powers? This is the difference. I have been at least thirty times to America, talked to lot of people. They say if you want to go really for attainment of your soul, you go to ISKCON. Prabhupāda: Even Mahesh Yogi says. Yes. Reporter (3): And if you want to attain your bodily strength . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, actually. One of his secretaries came to us. One of his secretaries, he asked that, "I want real knowledge of God." He said: "Then you go to ISKCON." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's true. Reporter (3): And if you want blissful, pleasureful things, go to either Mahesh Yogi or go to Bala Hathayogi. This is what has been . . . this is what has been impressed upon by knowledgeable people in America. And at least I can say with authority that I have talked with lot of people in America. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say that you can chant some mantra and go on with your sinful life. But the practical result is that people's lives remain the same. They may simply divert themselves from their suffering temporarily. But in reality their condition of life is the same. They're still in a miserable condition of life, whereas Prabhupāda is actually lifting us out of the well of misery to the atmosphere of blissfulness. Prabhupāda: That Mahesh Yogi advertises in the paper, "TM, you don't require any religion, don't require to follow any principles," and so on, so on. But I have got so many strictures—still, they do not go to him—they come to me. He has no stricture, but I have got so many stricture. And it is the report of the Draft Department that, "Why the young men come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? What is the facility?" So they studied. So they reported, "There is no facility, simply rigidity. Still they go there." (laughter) Reporter (4): Do you have any plans of propagating your movement in India? Because you have been for too long working in the West, and I believe India is not getting the benefit of your teaching and your guidance. *Prabhupāda: India is so misguided that it will take some time to come. Because whatever I . . . even if you speak to India, what I shall speak? I'll speak Bhagavad*-gītā . The Bhagavad-gītā was already there, still already there. But India's misfortune is they are so neglectful, they don't take care of Bhagavad-gītā . They'll bring, "Why not Sai Baba? Why not this bābā ? Why not that bābā ?" That is the difficulty. Reporter (4): No, I wanted to ask . . . Prabhupāda: They have become overintelligent. Not simple intelligent but overintelligent. That is . . . they are not overintelligent. That is the, I mean, facility for them. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. That is in the śāstra , in the *Vedas* , in everywhere. But you won't believe it. You'll say: "Why Kṛṣṇa Supreme God? Another . . . here is God. Here is God." Hundreds and thousands of Gods you'll bring. That is the difficulty. Reporter (4): No, do you plan to propagate your message in India? *Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly I plan, but the difficulty is that who is going to accept? The philosophy is already there. Bhagavad*-gītā is already, but who is hearing to take it? Even if I speak, I shall speak, "Read Bhagavad-gītā ," but who will take it? That is the difficulty. They will bring another competition. Indian devotee: What probably he's asking is do we have any positive plans . . . Reporter (4): For spreading the movement in India. Prabhupāda: We have got. We have already planned. Indian devotee: That has been seen in Māyāpur. That has been . . . in Bombay there's a very big temple, we are building, with a center. In . . . (indistinct) . . . Vṛndāvana . . . Prabhupāda: My point is that what I am speaking, it is not unknown to India, but they are so misfortunate that they don't take it. That is the difficulty. So, so unfortunate they have become that they don't take it. What shall I speak in India? The same thing. Reporter (2): So that is all the more reason why your work is needed. *Prabhupāda: No, we are doing. As far as possible, we have got center. The people are so overintelligent, don't take it. "Ah, what Hare Kṛṣṇa? We have heard it. Ah, we have seen Bhagavad*-gītā ." That is . . . if you become neglectful, that is the greatest offense. So India is offender. It is India's philosophy, what I am preaching others. India doesn't require to be known to be aware. It is . . . they already know it, but they won't take it. They have become so unfortunate. That is the difficulty. If you don't take it, then how you'll become rich? Suppose if I give you, "Take this one thousand dollars." But if you don't take it, then what benefit will be there? India's position is like that. Reporter (5): Would you be opening certain schools in India on gurukula pattern? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are trying, but the difficulty, India, is that they are very, very neglectful. Reporter (5): Is the government discouraging in certain . . . Prabhupāda: There is no question of government or . . . the government is people's men. So if you are . . . we are ourselves fools and rascals, the government will also be a set of fools and rascals. And if you are intelligent, the government will be intelligent. Because now it is democracy. You select some men. So don't blame government. You are government. If you are fools, the government are fools. If you are intelligent, the government is intelligent. It is up to you to change; then everything will be all right. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, excuse me, is there any special significance of keeping this bead hidden from the public? *Prabhupāda: Yes, just to follow Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā says, man-manā bhava mad bhaktaḥ : "Always think of Me." So we are thinking, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." Reporter (1): No, I mean, you are keeping it wrapped in a piece of cloth. Prabhupāda: That bead. Reporter (1): Why? Prabhupāda: The bead is pure, so just to keep it aloof from the dust. You see? Just like we keep this drinking water covered. Why? This is common sense. Reporter (1): Just to keep it pure. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pure it is, but still, it is our duty not to treat ordinarily. Reporter (1): Are your disciples supposed to chant the mantra all the time? Prabhupāda: Yes. All my disciple is chanting. Reporter (1): Are they supposed to chant the mantra throughout the day? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter (1): All the time? Prabhupāda: Just like I am talking with you, and as soon as talking stops, I am . . . my hand is going, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā . Reporter (1): Is it possible to talk and also to chant the mantra at the same time? Prabhupāda: Yes. That requires practice. That requires practice. Just like woman is cooking and (s)he is also talking. It does not mean the cooking is going bad. It is practice. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, does this chanting of mantra brings purity or following of your four instructions or regulations which you have told, or both? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. It purifies the heart, yes, the core of the heart. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). This is the effect of chanting. Because everything we are doing on account of dirty heart, so everything is dirty. So if you purify your heart, then everything becomes clear. Reporter (1): How long does it take to purify ourself? Prabhupāda: It takes . . . just like if the dirty things are very fixed up, it takes little more time. Otherwise it takes little time. Reporter (2): Swāmījī, I believe you'll be having certain industries for export also in Māyāpur. May I know if they will be manned by disciples, and if so, do you think that they would be in a much better position to look after these big gośālās and other things than, say, other people would be? *Prabhupāda: If you follow Bhagavad*-gītā , then everything will be followed very nicely. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). And go-rakṣya , this is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā . So if you follow Bhagavad-gītā , then naturally go-rakṣya will be there. And if you read Bhagavad-gītā for some political reason, then slaughterhouse go on. That's all. Instead of go-rakṣya , go-killing. This is going on. Every politician is reading Bhagavad-gītā , but go-rakṣya . . . instead of go-rakṣya , go-hatya . This is going on—no go-rakṣya , but go-hatya . This is going on. Who cares for Kṛṣṇa? This is the misfortune of India. Kṛṣṇa spoke in India, in Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa appeared in India, but Indian people are neglecting. Therefore I say it is a misfortune. It is your own thing. You are neglecting it. Reporter (2): So you want to encourage that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I want that . . . Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken in India. Every Indian should take Bhagavad-gītā very seriously. Then India's fortune will change. But they have rejected Bhagavad-gītā , and they are making their own imagination as the goal of life. So how they will be happy? If you have your father's property, you squander it and then you beg from others, "Give me some money," then how much unfortunate you are, just see. Your father's property, you squandered it. Then you become a beggar and beg from others, "Give me some money, sir." So how much unfortunate you are, just imagine. Reporter (3): When you visited the Soviet Union, Swāmījī, did you find the atmosphere worse than it is in Western countries, say? Are the people . . . Prabhupāda: Everywhere the people are very good, but the leaders are bad. Reporter (3): Did you meet any of them? No. Prabhupāda: Yes. I talked with one of the best leaders, Professor Kotovsky. He is the professor of Indology. I talked with him. I have studied. The people are generally very good. Reporter (3): But did you hold any meetings or anything? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (3): Were they receptive to what you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. I was invited by Professor Kotovsky to talk with him. On my way to Europe I stayed there. So I have studied the people. They are very good, as our Indian people, innocent masses, they are also like that. But they are being sophisticated by their new philosophy, Communism, artificial thing. But they are not happy. They are being forced to accept a philosophy. People are . . . I have seen from their face. They look unhappy. Everything dependent on government. You have to accept. You cannot select your food even. Whatever nonsense things the government will supply, you have to accept, even you don't like it. And for us it was a great difficulty. We could not get rice, could not get flour, neither fruit. Only milk is available, and flesh, as much as you like. So on the whole it was artificial, and people are not happy. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, why do you prohibit this tea or coffee also for your disciples? Prabhupāda: Because it is sinful. Reporter (1): It is sinful? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why should you eat meat? Reporter (6): What about onions and . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, onions is also very agitating. Reporter (1): Sir, why are they sinful? Why are they sinful? Prabhupāda: What sinful? Reporter (1): Why is it sinful to take tea or coffee? Prabhupāda: Because you get intoxication. If you are habituated to take tea, as soon as in your time you don't take, you'll become mad. Reporter (1): You mean this dependency is bad . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, why should we . . .? Reporter (1): . . . or this tea itself is bad? Prabhupāda: If your mind is agitated for something, then you become dependent on that thing. That is the position. Those who are taking tea, they have become so much dependent on tea. Reporter (1): But if I start talking milk I will be equally dependent on milk, sir. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, milk will not. Milk, you take little milk once; that will satisfy. Reporter (4): No, what he says that if he starts taking milk regularly, he'll become dependent. He'll become . . . Prabhupāda: So that much dependent, you must eat something. But you must eat something which is favorable for you. Eatable—everything is eatable. The stool is also eatable. That does not mean you, human being, you go to eat stool. That is meant for the pigs, hogs. You are not hogs and pigs. But if you become . . . if you try to become pigs and hog, then you can become. No discrimination of food means pigs and hogs. And God will give chance to become a hog next life. Reporter (1): Sir, most of your disciples have their heads shaven. Prabhupāda: But if you admit this, that after this life you have to accept another body. Do you accept this? Eh? Reporter (1): I do, sir. *Prabhupāda: Then that body offered to you, is it in your hand? Suppose the next life you are offered a pig's body. Can you say: "No, no, I don't want it"? That is the statement of Bhagavad*-gītā : tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Reporter (1): But how to give up, sir? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (1): How to give up. Prabhupāda: What is give up? Reporter (1): How to give up this tea and coffee to which we are so much habituated? Prabhupāda: That they have given up. Devotee (2): Join the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Just see the example, how they are . . . ask them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you lose your hankering for everything else. Reporter (1): Really? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The higher taste. Prabhupāda: That is the taste of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra ca (SB 11.2.42). As soon as you advance in devotion, you become detestful to the all material enjoyment. Reporter (2): Swāmījī, may I inquire from which class of society people generally come to you in the States? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From which class of society in the United Sates do most of your disciples come? Prabhupāda: You can ask them. I do not know. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All classes. Many educated people as well as people from all different classes, all racial backgrounds. Prabhupāda: No, no. In America, who is uneducated? Hṛdayānanda: Yes, all coming from very nice families, the majority, education. Many, many of them coming from very wealthy families. Prabhupāda: Now, if you should take good family means wealthy family, then America, there is no poor family. There is no question of poverty. So how do you distinguish that he's coming from good family, he's coming from bad family? Poverty is unknown to them. Nobody is uneducated. Then how you distinguish who is bad and who is good? Everyone is good—unless he voluntarily becomes bad, hippie. Otherwise everyone is coming from very good family, rich family, educated family. Reporter (2): Do you have a large number of American Negroes in your movement, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: Not large number, but there are. Reporter (2): Is there any reason why that is so? Prabhupāda: That is . . . there is reason. They are not very much cultured. Reporter (5): Do you have women followers also in this movement? Prabhupāda: Yes. America, men and women have got equal rights. Reporter (1): Sir, whom do you find more responsive to your movement, women or men? Prabhupāda: Everyone. Everyone. They are very fortunate. And I am very much indebted to them because they have helped me. Yes. Reporter (4): Helped in what sense? Prabhupāda: Helped in cooperation. Without their cooperation . . . now, these books I am writing surely, but they are pushing on, even facing great danger. They are helping me in my translating work, in typing, in composing, in printing. Have you got that film, how they are doing? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Hari-śauri: Have you got that film? That book film? Yadubara: I don't have the projector here, Prabhupāda. That suitcase is not here. Prabhupāda: So if we invite them to see it, that how they are helping efficiently with latest machine . . . therefore it has been possible. Otherwise, while in India with great hardship I could publish three books only. Reporter (1): They are very beautifully printed. Reporter (4): Where did the money come from to print such lavish editions of your books? Prabhupāda: The money comes . . . we are selling books daily. Reporter (4): No, but initially you do require a . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (4): Initially it requires some money to print such a lavish book. Prabhupāda: Initially I took some books from here. They are not so nicely printed, but still, I sold them. Then gradually increased. They paid the money, and then . . . they made contributions. One of my student, he first, Jayānanda, he . . . no, first paid me . . . he, he has first paid me five thousand dollars. Then Brahmānanda paid me five thousand dollars. In this way gradually money came. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, you write originally in English, or these books are being translated from some other language into English for you? Prabhupāda: No, translated, but I give my purport. That is . . . they like very much. Present the purport in such a way they can understand it. The original verse is there, but they are explained by me. Reporter (1): Give some critical comments and explanations. Prabhupāda: Yes. That they like. Reporter (2): Does that mean, Swāmījī, that yours is a cultural and educational movement rather than a personal cult. Hṛdayānanda: A cultural and educational movement rather than a personal cult. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is cultural movement, educational movement. It is not so*-called religious movement. Religious movement is sentiment. Generally, religion is taken as a kind of faith but it is not a kind of faith. In . . . I think, in South America that Indian man was asking that, "It is the Hindu faith?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, in South Africa. He was asking, "Is this Hindu faith?" "This cult or that cult?" *Prabhupāda: So just see. He was Hindu gentleman, belonging to the Ārya*-samāj. So three times he said: "Is it Hindu faith?" And what do you mean by Hindu faith? When Kṛṣṇa said, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), is it meant for the Hindus that a child becomes . . . a baby becomes a child, a child becomes a boy, a boy becomes a young man, a young man becomes a old man, and the old man dies, changes this body? Is it meant for the Hindus? The Muhammadans do not become old men or young men? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Christians don't become old men? *Prabhupāda: But such fools there are that Bhagavad*-gītā is speaking, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13)—"It is meant for the Hindus." Just see. Such fools there are. And Kṛṣṇa said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "If you have got enough food grains, then all the living entities are satisfied." Is it meant for the Hindus? So this is going on, "This is Hindu scripture." What do you mean by Hindu scripture? Huh? So they are interpreting in their own way. So Kṛṣṇa is not for the Hindus or the Mussulmans or Christians. He is God. He is everyone. He is for everyone. And it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , sarva-yonīṣu kaunteya mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ (BG 14.4): "In all species of life, as many forms of life are there, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ , I am the seed-giving father of all of them." So where is the question of Hindus? This is going on. Reporter (5): Does it ever happen, Swāmījī, that some disciples of yours may disagree with you on spiritual matters? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. *Prabhupāda: Unless he is a fool. (laughter) Unless he's damn fool, they do not. (laughter) If he's sane and sober, open*-hearted, then he will agree. Not only Hindus. We have got so many Muhammadans also. So unless one is open-minded, sane, intelligent, they cannot understand. Therefore I say the Indians are becoming insane. By the influence of so many rascals they are becoming insane. So that has to be rectified. But insanity is prevailing all over the world, but not so much insanity as in India, that they are rejecting their own things. This is the greatest insanity. Why they are rejecting Bhagavad-gītā ? What is the reason? Tell me, you. Reporter (2): Because of Hindus suffer from basic economic instability. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: Economic instability. *Prabhupāda: Economic? Then why don't you accept the economic program given by Bhagavad*-gītā ? Why don't you accept? Reporter (2): If you would elaborate on that, I would be very much interested. *Prabhupāda: Well, that is . . . it is . . . it is known to everyone. Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Anna. Anna means food grains, eatables. You must produce sufficient food grains. Why you are producing tire tube instead of food grains? And just entering your Delhi from Vṛndāvana, a big Goodyear factory, very big factory. You are producing tire tube, then iron, Goodyear and this and that. Where is food grain? And both sides, the field is vacant. Nobody is going to grow food grain. Then why you'll not starve? It is your fault. You are producing tire tube and iron instrument. You are neglecting agriculture. Then why you shall not suffer for want of food grain? And you are pleading, "Indians are starving." Why shall not starve if they do not follow Bhagavad*-gītā ? They are thinking, "By increasing industry in America . . ." They have got industry, at the same time food grains also. But you are taking to industry without taking care of growing food grains. *Reporter (6): Swāmījī, I would like to know that I feel that your Society, the Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness Society, has a very, very stable economy, and that it is self*-sufficient in itself. Is that so? Hṛdayānanda: Speak a little louder. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is the Hare Kṛṣṇa Society self*-sufficient? Does it have a . . . he understands that our Society has a very stable economy. Is it self-sufficient, our own Hare Kṛṣṇa Society? *Prabhupāda: So don't you think that we are self*-sufficient? We are feeding at least ten thousand devotees daily, but we have no fixed income. Reporter (6): They don't have any fixed income. Prabhupāda: No. None of us have any fixed income, but we are traveling all over the world—New York, London, Calcutta. It is just like going from this quarter to that quarter. Our men are moving like that. Immediately coming, one dozen men from Germany, one dozen from London, and immediately going. We are paying so much money to the airplanes, and we have got so many centers. So how it is going on? Kṛṣṇa's grace. We depend on Kṛṣṇa. Our income, daily collection, is not less than one lakh of rupees, and we are spending everything. Reporter (6): One lakh daily? Prabhupāda: That is minimum. Sometimes we collect five lakhs daily. Reporter (4): What is the way you go about collecting money? *Prabhupāda: That book*-selling. Reporter (6): Only . . . books are the only source of your . . . Prabhupāda: That's it. This question was raised in the Parliament that, "Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they are fabulously rich. Where they get their money?" And the Parliament answer was "They get their money by selling literature." Reporter (6): That means the devotees, Swāmījī, do not contribute to the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Not the devotees purchase. They publish. Those who are intelligent public, they purchase. Reporter (6): They purchase. Right. But do the devotees contribute in any way? *Prabhupāda: Yes. They are contributing their life. We don't get any such life*-sacrificing Indians. These educated boys, rich men's son, they have sacrificed everything for me. And where is Indian? Reporter (6): Swāmījī, do you have certain farms also in America, gośālā ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only one, many. Reporter (6): What else do you have over there besides gurukula schools and things? Prabhupāda: We produce our own milk. In New Vrindavan we are producing . . . you are Nava Bharata Times ? You are, any of you, Nava Bharata Times ? Is there any representative, Nava . . . ? No. Your representative went to New Vrindavan, and he published in the November 1974, I think. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, '74. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they published one big article, Nava Bharata Time , and the heading was, Adhyatmikta ka jamuna aur doodh*-dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (The Yamuna of spirituality and the river of milk and curd is flowing.) (laughter) This was the heading. Actually they gave the photograph of our Deity and activities, everything. You can find out November issue of Nava Bharata in 1974. Reporter (2): But you've virtually given up India as a dead loss, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (2): You've given up India as a dead loss, isn't it, in the sense . . . Prabhupāda: Dead loss? Dead loss . . . but the leaders are dead loss. Misleaders. They have given up their own culture, and they are trying to imitate others. Reporter (6): Swāmījī, when there was discussion in Parliament about the fabulous money that the movement has, Society has, then who provided the answers? Prabhupāda: The Home Member. Reporter (6): The Minister. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We have a copy of this in Bombay, the question number and . . . it was about two, three years ago. Reporter (6): They must have done intensive research and things like that. Prabhupāda: The other member, they raised the question. They brought the charges that the Americans are CIA. What is that? CIA, or not? What is? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. CIA. *Prabhupāda: The CIA have become Vaiṣṇava and given up meat*-eating and dancing with me, and they have no other means. (laughter) Just see how foolish question it is. The CIA men have come to me for inquiry. This question, rascal questions, are put. Such unfortunate insanity is prevailing in India. (laughter) The American CIA, they have come to me. Just see. Reporter (6): Swāmījī, would you print that it is legitimate for the government to say that certain undesirable . . . Prabhupāda: Don't bring in government now. It is emergency. (laughter) Put ordinary question. Don't bring in government. Reporter (6): No, but have you been troubled by any undesirable elements? *Prabhupāda: No, no. We are clean. Why shall we be . . .? But if you want to put us in trouble, you can do it. We are preaching . . . our signboard is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why do you misunderstand? And we are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. You have got our book. Still if you misunderstand, that is our misfortune. What can I do? Reporter (4): Thank you very much indeed, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to have a look at some of our books? Hari-śauri: We have some refreshments also if you want. (end) Prabhupāda: All of them are South African? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, actually, he's from South Africa and he's from South Africa. These two devotees are going down for the first time, and Jagat*-guru was preaching there once before. Prabhupāda: So they will get visa? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't require visa except for Jagat*-guru. He's British, he's Canadian. He's South African boy. He's South African. Prabhupāda: Oh, they don't require visa. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only Jagat*-guru dāsa, American. Prabhupāda: Oh. So he'll get visa? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: So all five, you are going? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, we have studied this South Africa. They like our movement. And they are purchasing books. That is very good sign. Is it not? They are purchasing? Who are purchasing books? Educated circle? Devotee (1): Colleges. Prabhupāda: College. That is . . . college, universities, that is educated. So I was surprised when, after my meeting, they purchased books, because these South African white men, they do not like very much Indians. Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's a fact. Prabhupāda: But still, they like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is very good sign. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even the Indians are attracted to our Indian culture. Prabhupāda: They lost their culture. *Jagat*-guru: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we were thinking that this is 1976, and in July there is Ratha-yātrā. So by next year, '77, we hope to be able to have Ratha-yātrā in Durban. There may be a quarter of a million, half a million Indian people. One cart and three deities on one cart. Prabhupāda: And whether government will allow? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think so. They already have permission. *Jagat*-guru: They can give permission, will do probably. And also we want to establish also, apart from the temple, one bus program which will reach all the towns and villages there in South Africa. Prabhupāda: Very good. *Jagat*-guru: And also we will go to Rhodesia and possibly Malawi and maybe Mozambique, which are countries in our area. And also I spoke to the boys from Mauritius, and we would have some . . . Prabhupāda: Mauritius, we have got now devotee. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have kept his address? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Two devotees. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One is that gentleman, Mr. Narayan. He's an engineer with the city electrical department. And the other is a full*-time devotee. I have his address, Mr. Narayan's address. Prabhupāda: So they are still here? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's anxious to go back. He's going to London until August; then he's going back to Mauritius with his family. *Jagat*-guru: We will invite him to come to our Durban festival. And also I've suggested that they also arrange something big, festival, because there are 600,000 Indians there, and that some of our men then go to the island and give them association. Prabhupāda: So they'll give visa? Me? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For you? Oh, yes. I think we have to make a chest x*-ray again and take several shots for you, (laughter) no problem. Prabhupāda: So when you are going back? Tomorrow? *Jagat*-guru: Yes. Prabhupāda: When? Early in the morning? *Devotee: Yes. We're making the arrangements tomorrow to go. We're getting tickets and some books. Then Jagat*-guru will follow a few days later. Prabhupāda: Make vigorous propaganda all over the world. From South Africa, Australia there is direct service. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Direct service. Prabhupāda: Perth. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Perth. Yes. Prabhupāda: From Perth to . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sydney. Prabhupāda: No, South Africa . . .? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How many hours? It's about nine hours. Prabhupāda: Not much. Nearer than India. From India to Australia takes so many hours. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Five hours it was, from Bombay to Mauritius. Hari-śauri: Takes over fourteen hours. Prabhupāda: Five hours, again nine hours. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And then it was about three hours to South Africa from Mauritius. Prabhupāda: No, from Mauritius they can go directly to Australia. No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Direct to? Prabhupāda: Australia. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. If the flight is broken up like that, it's a little easier—from South Africa to Mauritius to Perth, or even to Bombay. It's about the same distance from Bombay to Mauritius as to Australia from Mauritius. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda is thinking about going from India to South Africa to Australia to make the flight easier. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think it makes the flight easier, because you're going like a triangle, this way and then this way. Let us arrange some nice program first, so that when you come again we'll have something nice to offer you. Prabhupāda: I think in Mauritius there is good field. They adopted culture. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The problem in Mauritius has been that either they don't know how to collect, or they say it's a very poor country and they're not able to get funds to start any kind of a dynamic program. Prabhupāda: They cannot chant even? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Chanting they do. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. We don't want money. So give them directly. *Jagat*-guru: Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: South African mission, very good. Devotee: At this present moment, Prabhupāda, we have a really unique situation, the best of all. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: A unique situation in South Africa, because there are many Europeans that are being drafted into the army, but they will not allow the Indians to be drafted. They don't want them to go into the military forces because they're afraid they're too intelligent. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of our brahmacārīs , they've been drafted into the army. We've lost several devotees like that, because it's very hard for them to maintain their Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the army. Prabhupāda: Conscription. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, conscription. But the Indians are not drafted. There's no army for them. So we're hoping that in Durban, where you first preached at the City Hall, the young people there, if we can get them sufficiently enthused, that they'll also join, and then we'll be able to have a very big movement amongst Indian community as well. We won't lose any devotees like that from the draft. Prabhupāda: I think our students who are going to be ministers, they are excused from draft. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, even in South Africa the ministers . . . no excuse. It's a very strict situation. If you don't go into the army, you go to jail. Even if you're a minister, they don't care. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is no religious grounds for objecting. But only the Europeans are in the army, no one else. They're afraid that if the Indians had guns, they might use them against the Europeans. (laughing) Devotee: So we're going to try and make more devotees this year, more Indian devotees especially. We've never really tried before. *Jagat*-guru: Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you have seen on our altar, Gaura-Nitāi? We have large Gaura-Nitāi and two small, three actually, three small sets of Gaura-Nitāi Deities. The ones on the far left, just under Lord Nityānanda's feet, They are going also to South Africa. They came originally from East Africa. I mentioned it when I first came to Māyāpur. So we will be taking Them. We have a very nice siṁhāsana built for Them, finished tomorrow, and we'll be displaying Them at all our programs, preaching programs. Prabhupāda: Do the needful. (pause) Prabhupāda: That's all. Devotees: (offer obeisances) Jaya . Prabhupāda: Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're very enthusiastic to preach. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is life. One who is enthusiastic to preach, he is living. Others are dead. (looking at flower) Just see how beautiful. Who is the rascal scientist can manufacture that by combination of chemicals? Hari-śauri: They can imitate the fragrance. (laughs) They can imitate, like monkeys. Prabhupāda: If you see only to the flowers, you become invigorated. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you see only . . .? Prabhupāda: Invigorated; get a refreshment. Hari-śauri: If you just see a flower. Yes, just to walk through a nice garden, it's very pacifying. *Prabhupāda: How many different colors and set*-up, craftsmanship. There is no brain, eh? Hari-śauri: Chance. Prabhupāda: It is not chance. In this particular tree, this flower will grow. Color will not change. (pause) Prabhupāda: So somebody is preparing? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Who? (end) Prabhupāda: All of them are South African? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, actually, he's from South Africa and he's from South Africa. These two devotees are going down for the first time, and Jagat*-guru was preaching there once before. Prabhupāda: So they will get visa? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't require visa except for Jagat*-guru. He's British, he's Canadian. He's South African boy. He's South African. Prabhupāda: Oh, they don't require visa. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only Jagat*-guru dāsa, American. Prabhupāda: Oh. So he'll get visa? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: So all five, you are going? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, we have studied this South Africa. They like our movement. And they are purchasing books. That is very good sign. Is it not? They are purchasing? Who are purchasing books? Educated circle? Devotee (1): Colleges. Prabhupāda: College. That is . . . college, universities, that is educated. So I was surprised when, after my meeting, they purchased books, because these South African white men, they do not like very much Indians. Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's a fact. Prabhupāda: But still, they like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is very good sign. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even the Indians are attracted to our Indian culture. Prabhupāda: They lost their culture. *Jagat*-guru: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we were thinking that this is 1976, and in July there is Ratha-yātrā. So by next year, '77, we hope to be able to have Ratha-yātrā in Durban. There may be a quarter of a million, half a million Indian people. One cart and three deities on one cart. Prabhupāda: And whether government will allow? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think so. They already have permission. *Jagat*-guru: They can give permission, will do probably. And also we want to establish also, apart from the temple, one bus program which will reach all the towns and villages there in South Africa. Prabhupāda: Very good. *Jagat*-guru: And also we will go to Rhodesia and possibly Malawi and maybe Mozambique, which are countries in our area. And also I spoke to the boys from Mauritius, and we would have some . . . Prabhupāda: Mauritius, we have got now devotee. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have kept his address? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Two devotees. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One is that gentleman, Mr. Narayan. He's an engineer with the city electrical department. And the other is a full*-time devotee. I have his address, Mr. Narayan's address. Prabhupāda: So they are still here? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's anxious to go back. He's going to London until August; then he's going back to Mauritius with his family. *Jagat*-guru: We will invite him to come to our Durban festival. And also I've suggested that they also arrange something big, festival, because there are 600,000 Indians there, and that some of our men then go to the island and give them association. Prabhupāda: So they'll give visa? Me? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For you? Oh, yes. I think we have to make a chest x*-ray again and take several shots for you, (laughter) no problem. Prabhupāda: So when you are going back? Tomorrow? *Jagat*-guru: Yes. Prabhupāda: When? Early in the morning? *Devotee: Yes. We're making the arrangements tomorrow to go. We're getting tickets and some books. Then Jagat*-guru will follow a few days later. Prabhupāda: Make vigorous propaganda all over the world. From South Africa, Australia there is direct service. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Direct service. Prabhupāda: Perth. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Perth. Yes. Prabhupāda: From Perth to . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sydney. Prabhupāda: No, South Africa . . .? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How many hours? It's about nine hours. Prabhupāda: Not much. Nearer than India. From India to Australia takes so many hours. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Five hours it was, from Bombay to Mauritius. Hari-śauri: Takes over fourteen hours. Prabhupāda: Five hours, again nine hours. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And then it was about three hours to South Africa from Mauritius. Prabhupāda: No, from Mauritius they can go directly to Australia. No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Direct to? Prabhupāda: Australia. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. If the flight is broken up like that, it's a little easier—from South Africa to Mauritius to Perth, or even to Bombay. It's about the same distance from Bombay to Mauritius as to Australia from Mauritius. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda is thinking about going from India to South Africa to Australia to make the flight easier. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think it makes the flight easier, because you're going like a triangle, this way and then this way. Let us arrange some nice program first, so that when you come again we'll have something nice to offer you. Prabhupāda: I think in Mauritius there is good field. They adopted culture. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The problem in Mauritius has been that either they don't know how to collect, or they say it's a very poor country and they're not able to get funds to start any kind of a dynamic program. Prabhupāda: They cannot chant even? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Chanting they do. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. We don't want money. So give them directly. *Jagat*-guru: Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: South African mission, very good. Devotee: At this present moment, Prabhupāda, we have a really unique situation, the best of all. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: A unique situation in South Africa, because there are many Europeans that are being drafted into the army, but they will not allow the Indians to be drafted. They don't want them to go into the military forces because they're afraid they're too intelligent. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of our brahmacārīs , they've been drafted into the army. We've lost several devotees like that, because it's very hard for them to maintain their Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the army. Prabhupāda: Conscription. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, conscription. But the Indians are not drafted. There's no army for them. So we're hoping that in Durban, where you first preached at the City Hall, the young people there, if we can get them sufficiently enthused, that they'll also join, and then we'll be able to have a very big movement amongst Indian community as well. We won't lose any devotees like that from the draft. Prabhupāda: I think our students who are going to be ministers, they are excused from draft. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, even in South Africa the ministers . . . no excuse. It's a very strict situation. If you don't go into the army, you go to jail. Even if you're a minister, they don't care. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is no religious grounds for objecting. But only the Europeans are in the army, no one else. They're afraid that if the Indians had guns, they might use them against the Europeans. (laughing) Devotee: So we're going to try and make more devotees this year, more Indian devotees especially. We've never really tried before. *Jagat*-guru: Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you have seen on our altar, Gaura-Nitāi? We have large Gaura-Nitāi and two small, three actually, three small sets of Gaura-Nitāi Deities. The ones on the far left, just under Lord Nityānanda's feet, They are going also to South Africa. They came originally from East Africa. I mentioned it when I first came to Māyāpur. So we will be taking Them. We have a very nice siṁhāsana built for Them, finished tomorrow, and we'll be displaying Them at all our programs, preaching programs. Prabhupāda: Do the needful. (pause) Prabhupāda: That's all. Devotees: (offer obeisances) Jaya . Prabhupāda: Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're very enthusiastic to preach. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is life. One who is enthusiastic to preach, he is living. Others are dead. (looking at flower) Just see how beautiful. Who is the rascal scientist can manufacture that by combination of chemicals? Hari-śauri: They can imitate the fragrance. (laughs) They can imitate, like monkeys. Prabhupāda: If you see only to the flowers, you become invigorated. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you see only . . .? Prabhupāda: Invigorated; get a refreshment. Hari-śauri: If you just see a flower. Yes, just to walk through a nice garden, it's very pacifying. *Prabhupāda: How many different colors and set*-up, craftsmanship. There is no brain, eh? Hari-śauri: Chance. Prabhupāda: It is not chance. In this particular tree, this flower will grow. Color will not change. (pause) Prabhupāda: So somebody is preparing? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Who? (end) Śyāmasundara: . . . the money is spent and everything is going nicely. Disorganized. Prabhupāda: Yes, management, management means everything is in order. Śyāmasundara: If there is no manager . . . Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the use of assembling together? Śyāmasundara: There should be some sannyāsī to step forward. Pañcadraviḍa: Sometimes, though, it is hard to maintain this routine. You yourself told the devotees not to go out and purchase excessive amounts of sweets, but that didn't check them. They are still in the sweet shops continually. This morning, I woke a . . . I went to wake a devotee up. I woke him up at a quarter to four. I said: "Prabhu, you want to get up now? It's about four o'clock, time to wake." So he didn't wake, but I went ahead and bathed, because I want to do that. And then I come back, and it was almost time for ārati . So I said, "If you're not going to bathe, at least get out of bed and come to ārati ." But he wouldn't do even that much. So what can you do under these conditions? When you tell somebody, you can't physically . . . Śyāmasundara: Well, the whole idea is if you create a spiritual atmosphere that is so enlivening that everyone will want to participate in it. That is the solution. You can't individually treat each person. You have to get the whole thing generated by . . . by pouring water on the root. Prabhupāda: If they sit down for chanting, they should automatically . . . they come. If one is late, then you can say: "Well, why did you not come?" But if there is no chanting, no sitting, simply "Wake up, wake up, wake up!" "All right, I am waking up," that is show. But one may wake up or not, you begin your work immediately. Devotee (2): With regard to the ārati . . . Prabhupāda: How? Devotee (2): We go to the, up into the temple for the ārati , so he stays in bed and sleeps, and we go to the ārati . Prabhupāda: No, that if he stays on the bed, then he should be asked to leave. Yes. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Not that fighting. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes? Devotee (3): I just want to say one thing, but this . . . and then I will leave, because this is a meeting of the management bureau. But I saw the boy after he was beaten, and as far as I was . . . Prabhupāda: That I have seen later . . . Devotee (3): That was very cruel, erm . . . it looked very cruel to me. It looked like he was beaten with boards. Criminal. So, erm, I don't think . . . if it happened to me, I would sue, if that happened to me. The boy's eye could be put out. That is not good, under any circumstances. Prabhupāda: That we are discussing. That already . . . (indistinct) *Śyāmasundara: The whole thing is that we are sure about a crisis in India in terms of our presence here. Our prestige has hit an all*-time low simply because of our conduct, that's all. Not because of our teaching or our, our . . . because we're white or anything like that. It is just because of our conduct—it is so bad, abominable. We don't . . . (indistinct) . . . right compared with the Indian sannyāsīs in our conduct. So can we expect to . . . to honor Śrīla Prabhupāda if we conduct ourselves like that? So it is our, our, our responsibility as the leaders not to avoid it, not to avoid the other devotees, but to train them now, begin training. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is Vaiṣṇava training. Now we should have our routine work. Just like here: punctual. As soon as I see seven, I ask where this is happening, kīrtana vidhi . As soon it as it is five, I immediately ask. So there may be a small assembly, but the routine work must be followed. If somebody is sleeping and the kīrtana is going on, or the morning program is going on, so he may be said that, "If you sleep like that, then you cannot be here." Devotee (2): I said that to that boy previously. I told him not to do that. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why you . . . (indistinct) . . . something, pour water on his body? Devotee (2): Simply to waken him. Prabhupāda: You should not do anything which may provoke some reaction. (background whispering) So best thing was to say that he is not in good shape. Say to me that he is incorrigible, and I could have asked him, "Don't . . ." Now he's finished. He may leave one day. Once, twice, if he does not follow, then we shall ask him just to "Please leave this place." That's all. That should be our manifesto. And we should also. The police said that, when I told him that our regulation is that everyone should get up at four, so he immediately replied: "I don't see anyone rising at four. Nobody." What can I answer? Devotee (2): How can he say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can he see if anyone is rising at four or not? Prabhupāda: No, here he can. Because we have a space like that, can be seen. Open spaces, morning, he can identify here. Just by your sight. Devotee (2): But he is rising. Devotee: I am rising. Prabhupāda: He is rising, but others. Devotee (2): Some others are rising. None . . . not all, but some of them are rising. Devotee (1): The whole point is that the sannyāsīs must see that that standard is kept to the highest. That is their job. That is why you take sannyāsa . Prabhupāda: But that should be observed, and peacefully it should be settled. If it is not peacefully settled, the man who is continually disobeying, he should be simply asked, "Please go." You cannot beat him. That will . . . Devotee (4): Who has the authority to say to somebody "Please go" or not? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (4): Who has the authority to tell a person "Please go"? We don't know . . . I don't know who has that authority. Prabhupāda: The president will say. So long I am here, I shall say . . . (indistinct) Devotee (1): This, this daṇḍa gives authority to the . . . Prabhupāda: That gives authority. That gives authority. Devotee (5): Not in ISKCON. Not in ISKCON. Devotee (1): Yes it does, in the US. Devotee (4): No, they do not respect sannyāsīs . Devotee (1): Yes they do. Devotee (4): No, they don't. Devotee (1): Because you may not deserve it, then. Devotee (4): Now I am getting so . . . the thing is, they may say like, that but behind my back they talk so many things . . . Prabhupāda: If they do not obey the orders of the sannyāsīs , then naturally . . . but that thing should be brought to the notice at hand, some official president. The case should be taken that if you cannot follow the rules and regulations, you must leave. There is . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no question of fighting. First thing is that the sannyāsīs , leaders, they should behave themselves according to the rules and regulations and then ask others to follow. The others, they do not follow: once, twice excuse; three times, "Please go away." Devotee (1): If you follow strictly the principles then you will be automatically respected. Acyutanānda: Now if I wanted to ask someone to leave, but how does he leave? Do we have to buy him his ticket or something? There was a boy, one Indian, Indra . . . Indrarāja . . . Prabhupāda: Leave means he can go to another center. Acyutanānda: I wanted to ask him to leave, but where would he go? Who will pay for his way out? What do you mean? Prabhupāda: One thing is, that is ultimate. We are canvassing, we are preaching to bring men . . . Devotee (5): Here. Prabhupāda: To get them out is not our business. Devotee (5): Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is not our business, that's all. But if he is incorrigible, it is not . . . then he must leave. That is . . . if you're making so much preaching, why? To bring men, not to ask them to go. If for some paltry reason you ask, that is not . . . when he is incorrigible, first of all you have to try to encourage him. That is preaching. Our preaching means that people are misled. We have to train them in such a way they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our mandate. But if he is completely incorrigible, then he will be asked. Not . . . otherwise it is not our business that as soon as we see something we should think wrong. He must be trained by our example, by our teaching, by our word. Eh? Santa . . . santa chindanti, uktibhiḥ ( SB 11.26.26), by word, by example, he should be corrected. If I cannot correct him by my words and example, that is also my intimidation. Because they have . . . you cannot expect that everyone has come here, sādhu . That's not. You collect from ordinary men, but we have to make him sādhu . That is preaching. That is preaching. That you have to do tactfully. Not that because one is . . . incorrigible men, after trying all our ways, if he is still incorrigible, then you can ask. Not that for fancy reasons, he should not be . . . "Get out." That "Get out," if you made, then everything has to be "Get out." That is not the policy. The policy is first of to correct him. That is preaching. As far as possible by example, by teaching, by everything. Devotee (5): Hmm, engaging. *Prabhupāda: By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If at the school and does not learn nicely, you cannot say: "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then we have to ask. And if there is money required, you have to manage your money. What can be done? But I don't think, if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be practiced. He is after all human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourselves. Āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi. We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly, come to . . . (indistinct) . . . how you can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpane ācare prabhu jīva . First of all you have to behave. If one is not cleansing, you should take . . . (indistinct) . . . just like I have to sometimes: "Not this way but this way." We have to do like that. Not that I command, "You do this," "I cannot do it," "Ah, get out!" Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for teaching, and that teaching means one should behave himself nicely. He cannot say that "You do not do this." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda*-kumāra. You . . . he was accusing you; you were accusing him. I heard from God. (laughter) So you should do in such a way that he cannot accuse you. If you ask him to rise early in the morning and take your bath, and if you do not take . . . eh? But in some special case . . . I was taking early bath; now I do not take, because due to my health. That is different. Otherwise regularly I was taking, not even hot water. This hot water bath I have begun in your country; otherwise I have never took, even in the severest cold. Here also I am trying to avoid; I'm keeping this tub of water. Sunshine, whatever little warm it becomes, that's all. So for special health reasons one cannot rise, he is sick. Not generally. Otherwise everyone should rise early in the morning and take bath and be ready for performing in our centers by six o'clock, by five o'clock. And the kīrtana party, you should have everyone go. It may be small distance, but all our men should go. That will be real welfare, seeing the early in the morning so many parties come. Devotee (5): From 3.30. *Prabhupāda: Three*-thirty. So you behave yourself and others will follow. What is that? Cleanliness and following the routine work. That is our method. You must be very clean, neat and clean, rise early in the morning, and we have got our duties. *Devotee: Just like yesterday. Yesterday Dvija*-hari came over and said he couldn't get anyone to clean the temple. No one would clean, over at Keśī-ghāṭa. I said: "But there are so many sannyāsīs there, ask them to organize the cleansing party." He said: "Oh, no one would clean. They will not do it." So it doesn't . . . Prabhupāda: Why not? Some people should be engaged, you have to get them cleaning. Devotee (4): They won't, then you have to show them how. You do it also. Acyutanānda: Because so many people have come and gone. We had a cleaning group and they left for other parties. Devotee (4): No, but I'm just saying there are many men there who could have cleaned, but they refused to do it, because they are following your examples. Acyutanānda: I am cleaning my room, I am cleaning outside also. You just haven't seen it. Prabhupāda: Anyway, whatever is done is done. This should be followed like that Devotee (4): No, I'm not criticizing . . . Prabhupāda: That, āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi , this should be the principle. One should teach others by behaving himself correctly, then it will be all right. Everyone should remain clean, everyone should rise early in the morning, study, do some work, routine work. So then you can ask, "Why you're not trying? Why you're not doing?" Then he will be ashamed . . . (indistinct) . . . so this principle should be followed, āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi . Is it not? Acyutanānda: Yes, well, for myself in particular I don't think that many people take my words very heavily. There is so much bad talking about me. First they say the songs are māyā , then the tunes are māyā . Behind my back I hear all kinds of things they say. So nobody takes my word seriously. Even though I may quote from many scriptures, they don't respect me. Prabhupāda: What is this māyā ? Acyutanānda: Hmm? Prabhupāda: The songs are māyā ? Hare Kṛṣṇa? Acyutanānda: As soon as I left Calcutta, all the bhajanas , they were all, "Oh, that's, that's Gauḍīya Maṭha poison." Then "Okay, the songs are all right but the tunes are poison." Devotee (4): I . . . Acyutanānda: Now how can I overcome this? Devotee (4): I heard something in reference to that. You wrote one of the devotees in Calcutta, you wrote . . . he came to Bombay, Bhavānanda, and he said that he had signed a letter, something like, "I pray that I may be engaged in the service of my Guru Mahārāja," and you wrote back, "We are personalists to the letter, so that when we say: "Guru Mahārāja," we always say the name, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda or Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. We don't just leave it in as vague "Guru Mahārāja." " So we were singing Jaya Prabhupāda, or Jaya gurudeva , and he was saying, "Well, that is impersonalist." *Acyutanānda: Also he says nitāi*-gaura haribol, that is also . . . that is māyā . What is that? Devotee (4): So he was saying that all these bhajanas , they're . . . they are not bona fide because they are . . . *Prabhupāda: Nitāi*-gaura haribol is not bona fide? Who said that, not bona fide? Devotee (4): Well not that. He was saying that jaya gurudeva, jaya Prabhupāda, that was not good. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (4): He was saying that is not good, " jaya gurudeva ," because it does not say who. It just says gurudeva ; it could be any gurudeva . So he was criticizing that. Prabhupāda: Who was? Devotee (4): Bhavānanda, because of the letter you wrote to him saying that we are personalists to the letter. Acyutanānda: So it means that I am a Māyāvādī. That is what it means. Devotee: Well, it's a matter of overall conduct, not just individual specific things. Acyutanānda: That overall I am a Māyāvādī. Devotee (6): I find that overall the bad atmosphere in India, the resentment against many of the devotees, party politics and different things like that are going on, which is not limited; it is going on all over . . . Devotee (4): That's very heavy . . . *Devotee (6): Just like with . . . just like with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. He has . . . has the respect of everyone now because he's doing such a good job of managing. He's just doing, he is performing nicely his devotional work, and he is getting some results. That's respect. Then you will get respect. Bali*-mardana Mahārāja, he has built up ISKCON Press, 'til it is just like that (snaps fingers), and everyone touches his feet when they see him. You don't find anyone disrespecting him, because he is performing his duties. You automatically get respect if you perform something nicely. Not just say: "Oh, the atmosphere is bad . . ." Prabhupāda: Well, we have got many faults we can find out, but generally if I behave nicely others will follow. That is the principle. I may have some faults, you may some. We are not liberated paramahaṁsas ; we are all trying. So generally we should behave very nicely according to rules and regulations: chanting sixteen rounds, rising early in the morning. Particularly maybe there is some discrepancies here and there. So . . . generally it is our general rules and . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all rising early in the morning, if he cleans, and if they read for a . . . (indistinct) . . . if these things are followed, chant sixteen rounds, then everything is there. *Devotee (4): In your lectures you emphasize two aspects that must be there: jñāna and renunciation. So some knowledge is there, but the part of the difficulty is that with most of the devotees in every temple in India is that they have not renounced these dirty things completely. They still are attached to sense gratification even on gross levels. So whether a sannyāsī or anybody interferes with their sense gratification, they tend to not oblige, because they are attached to doing things the way they want, and they think because they are in a foreign country, here a long way from America, where the standards are very rigid, that they can do any manner of nonsense and nobody would check them. And if you try to correct them, then they will only do it behind your back. We have seen this with the sweet shops, with rising early, anything that interferes with them doing exactly as they please. They don't want to oblige. And this is in Calcutta, this is in Bombay, and it is happening here in Vṛndāvana. It is not something that is isolated here to the Palace, but the devotees all over, they are just behaving on a level of sense gratification, and that is why there is so much rajas*-guṇa in the temples. So much rajas-guṇa . Prabhupāda: This is a fact. But how to correct it if you do not correct yourself? How it can happen? Devotee (4): Well we . . . many of us have tried to correct our self, and as a result we have been accused of being separatists simply because we don't want to go along with the nonsense that everybody else is doing, but we want to maintain some standard for our self, of reading and chanting, because we don't want to sit down and talk nonsense or do nonsense. And if you try to stop them, they will not stop. So why should we fall down to that level? So we behave as separatists. We go into our room and we will read, or we will go into our room and chant, or we will try to keep ourselves clean or try and do these things, and that is separatism because it is not falling into the level of māyā that is going on everywhere else in the temple—engaging in party politics and all these other things. That is . . . that is what I feel about it. Most of the devotees, they seem out of place . . . Prabhupāda: Now what is done is done. Now you try to correct others by behaving yourselves. Otherwise there is no need of keeping so many men. We have attempted this in Vṛndāvana. A few men may remain here, that's all. Otherwise it would be not very nice to attract. People are attracted by seeing your behavior. They are seeing that all Europeans and Americans, they have adopted such nice Vaiṣṇava culture. There are attracted from that point. But if we are not to the standard point, they immediately appeal, "Oh they are useless". So that should be corrected. The same principle: āpane ācare prabhu . . . they should behave also nicely and teach others; then it will be . . . Devotee (6): What co . . . *Prabhupāda: And another, this is general principle. Now we have discussed, now you try to follow. And another thing that, that Keśī*-ghāṭa, shall we make further progress? We have acquired that property obviously dropped. What is your opinion? From the circumstances, and that is now, because any temple it must be nicely, very nicely managed; otherwise we cannot maintain. Our Los Angeles temple, you know we attract people, you know it is so nicely managed, very nicely managed. You have seen? So unless . . . and that means there must be sufficient men to manage. Such a big temple . . . Devotee (6): I don't . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? *Devotee (6): I don't think that, that there is enough people to clean up and manage and keep clean Keśī*-ghāṭa. Maybe in the future sometime, but . . . Prabhupāda: At the present it is not. Devotee (6): It is so big, so big. Devotee: Also, the quality of people that are there, the mass people of a higher quality and a smaller place would do much more good. Like I was in the Philippines by myself, all alone, but still, the work could go on much quicker because I could avoid all of this. I could avoid all of this with what we are having right now. I could avoid it completely because there was nobody there to cause it. All new people. So . . . Devotee (6): Everybody here knows everything. (several devotees laugh) As, like . . . Devotee: It goes up very quickly, because the people are automatically attracted, and then you teach them, you train them. So last, Americans, and just one or two people that want to manage, and then start with the people here, the Indian people. And as they develop and become strong, then develop a center. It may take a long time, but it will be solid, be more solid then. Just bring a bunch of Americans here, and then the whole thing falls to pieces, and it will ruin our reputation in that particular area where we want to open a temple. Prabhupāda: What is your suggestion? Devotee: That we start a small center and then develop it gradually with less, ah, with less inexperienced people . . . Devotee (6): We had a small center here . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (6): We have had a small center here for nearly a year, eight months. Devotee (4): Well, well we are not saying . . . he's not saying that that's going to succeed, but at least it may not be as much of a travesty. Whether or not we are going to succeed at all in India in getting Indians to listen to what we were saying, that is another whole point. But . . . Devotee: At least we won't be killing ourselves. At least we won't be making it so that in the future we will have to leave India—we will be asked to leave, our visas will be taken away and we will be asked to leave. These things could happen very easily. It is not . . . it is not a . . . it is not a impossible thing. There are places in the world where we can't go already, Singapore—these things have happened. So I feel we should be very, very careful and selective about who we let in . . . Prabhupāda: In Singapore our men cannot enter. Devotee (4): Yeah . . . Devotee: This has happened. Devotee (4): Yeah. There is many places that, although legally we can enter, still, people don't like us, you know. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Yes. Singapore, legally also we cannot enter. Devotee (6): They wouldn't even let you in. Devotee (4): I think that his point, I think I . . . we spoke about this in Manila. It was that anywhere in the world, as a general policy, from what I've experienced, is that if one or two people are sent to an area or are in an area and they are given full authority to try to get that population to engage in bhakti - yoga , engage in this process, that that gradual development with the local people, that has more effect than, than if we bring in a big party and try to do a big thing. And then, then the person has to get strong who is doing it. If I have to go somewhere, then I have to . . . I have to get strong for myself; I have to, you know, start from scratch. Devotee (5): Yeah I know, I know the difficulty they are having, sannyāsīs have here, because many of these devotees think it is more like a tour, vacation, to come to India. They don't have to follow the rules and regulations. Devotee (4): Right. Devotee (5): They are only temporarily or they are just passing through. But it is very difficult, I know. But still we have to try to train somehow. Prabhupāda: Therefore we cannot establish very big establishment, because they come as a tourist. Devotee (5): Yeah. Devotee: And if the temple is constructed, they would have to be more rigidly controlled. They would have to be managed by people that, by their preaching and by their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can make it so that the people who come and stay in that temple will want to practice bhakti . Can't be a negative aspect thing, a negative motivation. You're not going to keep . . . Prabhupāda: No, such camps, because you're not established. So what are your suggestions? What is to be done? Devotee (5): Well . . . Prabhupāda: Shall we reduce, devotees? Devotee (5): Yes, we have our base in Calcutta . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (5): We have our base in Bombay, those two places. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee (5): Those are important cities in the world. Prabhupāda: And Vṛndāvana, as long as our temple is not constructed, we should minimize? Devotee (5): Yes. Prabhupāda: So then automatically there is no question of devotees sleeping. Devotees: No. Devotee: Because not everyone is going to, ah, want to be, ah, you know. If the temple is not there, where the devotees can just come and fall into the schedule and program and activities . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: . . . then they will not want to maintain any standard themselves. They will just fall back immediately into their old habits naturally. Devotee (5): Of course, if we could, we could enter the negotiation and save it for a future date, because it won't be available . . . Devotee (4): I don't think we need to worry about that. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (4): I think that if we, if we don't worry about the material thing at all, that if we do these . . . we start and we have a spiritual base, that it will grow naturally and Kṛṣṇa will provide us with any material facilities we need. We don't need to try to get things for the future. Devotee (5): Yeah. Devotee (4): If we have devotees, then . . . Devotee (5): That's why I was thinking Kṛṣṇa doesn't want us to have it, really. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: What is the use of having a giant temple if we are all . . . (laughs) We see that all over India. They have giant temples, but no . . . Prabhupāda: Management. Devotee: No management. Devotee (4): As far as the men, since I think a lot of them are even . . . some cases they are sending problem cases to India, people they can't manage in the States. (laughter) I think that maybe if you divide, if you actually . . . since in the States you divided the States into territories, and certain men have certain territories, if you maybe appoint certain people in charge of territories of India and ask them which men they want, then they will tell you who they want, and the rest they can send away or send somewhere else. Then you will have solid centers, because the men will actually be desired. Prabhupāda: That's . . . so we make that. Needed. Devotee (5): Isn't that . . . didn't Śaṅkarācārya do that? Divide it four parts? Devotee (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: We have . . . Śaṅkarācārya was concerned in India. Devotee (5): Yeah. Prabhupāda: But we are preaching all over the world. Therefore we have divided four, eh, twelve, twelve zones. Devotee (4): Hmm. Prabhupāda: Our . . . my idea is like that, Śaṅkarācārya. Devotee (5): But India itself could be divided even, a few parts for preaching . . . Prabhupāda: That is already divided: Calcutta, Bombay, Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. Devotee (5): So the men in charge, they could say which men they wanted to keep, and the rest they could sent somewhere else, and that way you would have men who were willing to work on the project. And they who are not willing to work, they could also be sent somewhere else. Prabhupāda: So make something like that, because I cannot tax my brain with the administration. Devotee (5): Yeah. Well Tamāla Kṛṣṇa will be in Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: We, eh, physically I am weak. I have decided if I have to see to the administration then I cannot think of writing books . . . Devotee (5): Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . how to present our philosophy to be understandable by the people. Therefore the administration is divided. Now you do it. Little intelligence. You have got still respect. Keep our standard; people will like us. People will also give us service. Just like this big sannyāsī , already the biggest sannyāsī , congressman, he is attracted, but he is a man of immense resource, men and money, eh. Immense resources. Devotee (5): We have to be careful not to . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (5): Not to, erm . . . Devotee (4): Offend them. Devotee (5): . . . offend these people . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (5): . . . and make spiritual . . . Prabhupāda: So, not offend. There is no question of offending. We should behave ourselves very nicely. Offending or pleasing, that is not relevant. Devotee (5): No. Prabhupāda: You cannot offend everyone, neither you can please everyone. That is not possible. You keep to your standard. Devotee (5): Hmm. Not . . . Prabhupāda: You keep to your own standard, then everything, everyone will see, "Oh, it is nice". Offending . . . you cannot please everyone; that is not possible, even if you behave very nicely. Caitanya Mahāprabhu could not please everyone. He had to start civil disobedience. Even Gandhi was killed. That is not possible. You cannot please everyone, but you must stick to your own principle and behave like that, just see. All right. (Devotees talking amongst themselves) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . someone said that, Prabhupāda said respect it (indistinct) Devotee (2): You can make offerings to it. Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda said offer whatever you get to it. Devotee (3): Offer it products. Devotee: And food. Devotee (2): Whatever you get. Devotee: Can you do this transfer? Devotee: Now this is . . . (break) (end) Śyāmasundara: . . . the money is spent and everything is going nicely. Disorganized. Prabhupāda: Yes, management, management means everything is in order. Śyāmasundara: If there is no manager . . . Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the use of assembling together? Śyāmasundara: There should be some sannyāsī to step forward. Pañcadraviḍa: Sometimes, though, it is hard to maintain this routine. You yourself told the devotees not to go out and purchase excessive amounts of sweets, but that didn't check them. They are still in the sweet shops continually. This morning, I woke a . . . I went to wake a devotee up. I woke him up at a quarter to four. I said: "Prabhu, you want to get up now? It's about four o'clock, time to wake." So he didn't wake, but I went ahead and bathed, because I want to do that. And then I come back, and it was almost time for ārati . So I said, "If you're not going to bathe, at least get out of bed and come to ārati ." But he wouldn't do even that much. So what can you do under these conditions? When you tell somebody, you can't physically . . . Śyāmasundara: Well, the whole idea is if you create a spiritual atmosphere that is so enlivening that everyone will want to participate in it. That is the solution. You can't individually treat each person. You have to get the whole thing generated by . . . by pouring water on the root. Prabhupāda: If they sit down for chanting, they should automatically . . . they come. If one is late, then you can say: "Well, why did you not come?" But if there is no chanting, no sitting, simply "Wake up, wake up, wake up!" "All right, I am waking up," that is show. But one may wake up or not, you begin your work immediately. Devotee (2): With regard to the ārati . . . Prabhupāda: How? Devotee (2): We go to the, up into the temple for the ārati , so he stays in bed and sleeps, and we go to the ārati . Prabhupāda: No, that if he stays on the bed, then he should be asked to leave. Yes. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Not that fighting. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes? Devotee (3): I just want to say one thing, but this . . . and then I will leave, because this is a meeting of the management bureau. But I saw the boy after he was beaten, and as far as I was . . . Prabhupāda: That I have seen later . . . Devotee (3): That was very cruel, erm . . . it looked very cruel to me. It looked like he was beaten with boards. Criminal. So, erm, I don't think . . . if it happened to me, I would sue, if that happened to me. The boy's eye could be put out. That is not good, under any circumstances. Prabhupāda: That we are discussing. That already . . . (indistinct) *Śyāmasundara: The whole thing is that we are sure about a crisis in India in terms of our presence here. Our prestige has hit an all*-time low simply because of our conduct, that's all. Not because of our teaching or our, our . . . because we're white or anything like that. It is just because of our conduct—it is so bad, abominable. We don't . . . (indistinct) . . . right compared with the Indian sannyāsīs in our conduct. So can we expect to . . . to honor Śrīla Prabhupāda if we conduct ourselves like that? So it is our, our, our responsibility as the leaders not to avoid it, not to avoid the other devotees, but to train them now, begin training. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is Vaiṣṇava training. Now we should have our routine work. Just like here: punctual. As soon as I see seven, I ask where this is happening, kīrtana vidhi . As soon it as it is five, I immediately ask. So there may be a small assembly, but the routine work must be followed. If somebody is sleeping and the kīrtana is going on, or the morning program is going on, so he may be said that, "If you sleep like that, then you cannot be here." Devotee (2): I said that to that boy previously. I told him not to do that. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why you . . . (indistinct) . . . something, pour water on his body? Devotee (2): Simply to waken him. Prabhupāda: You should not do anything which may provoke some reaction. (background whispering) So best thing was to say that he is not in good shape. Say to me that he is incorrigible, and I could have asked him, "Don't . . ." Now he's finished. He may leave one day. Once, twice, if he does not follow, then we shall ask him just to "Please leave this place." That's all. That should be our manifesto. And we should also. The police said that, when I told him that our regulation is that everyone should get up at four, so he immediately replied: "I don't see anyone rising at four. Nobody." What can I answer? Devotee (2): How can he say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can he see if anyone is rising at four or not? Prabhupāda: No, here he can. Because we have a space like that, can be seen. Open spaces, morning, he can identify here. Just by your sight. Devotee (2): But he is rising. Devotee: I am rising. Prabhupāda: He is rising, but others. Devotee (2): Some others are rising. None . . . not all, but some of them are rising. Devotee (1): The whole point is that the sannyāsīs must see that that standard is kept to the highest. That is their job. That is why you take sannyāsa . Prabhupāda: But that should be observed, and peacefully it should be settled. If it is not peacefully settled, the man who is continually disobeying, he should be simply asked, "Please go." You cannot beat him. That will . . . Devotee (4): Who has the authority to say to somebody "Please go" or not? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (4): Who has the authority to tell a person "Please go"? We don't know . . . I don't know who has that authority. Prabhupāda: The president will say. So long I am here, I shall say . . . (indistinct) Devotee (1): This, this daṇḍa gives authority to the . . . Prabhupāda: That gives authority. That gives authority. Devotee (5): Not in ISKCON. Not in ISKCON. Devotee (1): Yes it does, in the US. Devotee (4): No, they do not respect sannyāsīs . Devotee (1): Yes they do. Devotee (4): No, they don't. Devotee (1): Because you may not deserve it, then. Devotee (4): Now I am getting so . . . the thing is, they may say like, that but behind my back they talk so many things . . . Prabhupāda: If they do not obey the orders of the sannyāsīs , then naturally . . . but that thing should be brought to the notice at hand, some official president. The case should be taken that if you cannot follow the rules and regulations, you must leave. There is . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no question of fighting. First thing is that the sannyāsīs , leaders, they should behave themselves according to the rules and regulations and then ask others to follow. The others, they do not follow: once, twice excuse; three times, "Please go away." Devotee (1): If you follow strictly the principles then you will be automatically respected. Acyutanānda: Now if I wanted to ask someone to leave, but how does he leave? Do we have to buy him his ticket or something? There was a boy, one Indian, Indra . . . Indrarāja . . . Prabhupāda: Leave means he can go to another center. Acyutanānda: I wanted to ask him to leave, but where would he go? Who will pay for his way out? What do you mean? Prabhupāda: One thing is, that is ultimate. We are canvassing, we are preaching to bring men . . . Devotee (5): Here. Prabhupāda: To get them out is not our business. Devotee (5): Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is not our business, that's all. But if he is incorrigible, it is not . . . then he must leave. That is . . . if you're making so much preaching, why? To bring men, not to ask them to go. If for some paltry reason you ask, that is not . . . when he is incorrigible, first of all you have to try to encourage him. That is preaching. Our preaching means that people are misled. We have to train them in such a way they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our mandate. But if he is completely incorrigible, then he will be asked. Not . . . otherwise it is not our business that as soon as we see something we should think wrong. He must be trained by our example, by our teaching, by our word. Eh? Santa . . . santa chindanti, uktibhiḥ ( SB 11.26.26), by word, by example, he should be corrected. If I cannot correct him by my words and example, that is also my intimidation. Because they have . . . you cannot expect that everyone has come here, sādhu . That's not. You collect from ordinary men, but we have to make him sādhu . That is preaching. That is preaching. That you have to do tactfully. Not that because one is . . . incorrigible men, after trying all our ways, if he is still incorrigible, then you can ask. Not that for fancy reasons, he should not be . . . "Get out." That "Get out," if you made, then everything has to be "Get out." That is not the policy. The policy is first of to correct him. That is preaching. As far as possible by example, by teaching, by everything. Devotee (5): Hmm, engaging. *Prabhupāda: By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If at the school and does not learn nicely, you cannot say: "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then we have to ask. And if there is money required, you have to manage your money. What can be done? But I don't think, if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be practiced. He is after all human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourselves. Āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi. We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly, come to . . . (indistinct) . . . how you can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpane ācare prabhu jīva . First of all you have to behave. If one is not cleansing, you should take . . . (indistinct) . . . just like I have to sometimes: "Not this way but this way." We have to do like that. Not that I command, "You do this," "I cannot do it," "Ah, get out!" Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for teaching, and that teaching means one should behave himself nicely. He cannot say that "You do not do this." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda*-kumāra. You . . . he was accusing you; you were accusing him. I heard from God. (laughter) So you should do in such a way that he cannot accuse you. If you ask him to rise early in the morning and take your bath, and if you do not take . . . eh? But in some special case . . . I was taking early bath; now I do not take, because due to my health. That is different. Otherwise regularly I was taking, not even hot water. This hot water bath I have begun in your country; otherwise I have never took, even in the severest cold. Here also I am trying to avoid; I'm keeping this tub of water. Sunshine, whatever little warm it becomes, that's all. So for special health reasons one cannot rise, he is sick. Not generally. Otherwise everyone should rise early in the morning and take bath and be ready for performing in our centers by six o'clock, by five o'clock. And the kīrtana party, you should have everyone go. It may be small distance, but all our men should go. That will be real welfare, seeing the early in the morning so many parties come. Devotee (5): From 3.30. *Prabhupāda: Three*-thirty. So you behave yourself and others will follow. What is that? Cleanliness and following the routine work. That is our method. You must be very clean, neat and clean, rise early in the morning, and we have got our duties. *Devotee: Just like yesterday. Yesterday Dvija*-hari came over and said he couldn't get anyone to clean the temple. No one would clean, over at Keśī-ghāṭa. I said: "But there are so many sannyāsīs there, ask them to organize the cleansing party." He said: "Oh, no one would clean. They will not do it." So it doesn't . . . Prabhupāda: Why not? Some people should be engaged, you have to get them cleaning. Devotee (4): They won't, then you have to show them how. You do it also. Acyutanānda: Because so many people have come and gone. We had a cleaning group and they left for other parties. Devotee (4): No, but I'm just saying there are many men there who could have cleaned, but they refused to do it, because they are following your examples. Acyutanānda: I am cleaning my room, I am cleaning outside also. You just haven't seen it. Prabhupāda: Anyway, whatever is done is done. This should be followed like that Devotee (4): No, I'm not criticizing . . . Prabhupāda: That, āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi , this should be the principle. One should teach others by behaving himself correctly, then it will be all right. Everyone should remain clean, everyone should rise early in the morning, study, do some work, routine work. So then you can ask, "Why you're not trying? Why you're not doing?" Then he will be ashamed . . . (indistinct) . . . so this principle should be followed, āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi . Is it not? Acyutanānda: Yes, well, for myself in particular I don't think that many people take my words very heavily. There is so much bad talking about me. First they say the songs are māyā , then the tunes are māyā . Behind my back I hear all kinds of things they say. So nobody takes my word seriously. Even though I may quote from many scriptures, they don't respect me. Prabhupāda: What is this māyā ? Acyutanānda: Hmm? Prabhupāda: The songs are māyā ? Hare Kṛṣṇa? Acyutanānda: As soon as I left Calcutta, all the bhajanas , they were all, "Oh, that's, that's Gauḍīya Maṭha poison." Then "Okay, the songs are all right but the tunes are poison." Devotee (4): I . . . Acyutanānda: Now how can I overcome this? Devotee (4): I heard something in reference to that. You wrote one of the devotees in Calcutta, you wrote . . . he came to Bombay, Bhavānanda, and he said that he had signed a letter, something like, "I pray that I may be engaged in the service of my Guru Mahārāja," and you wrote back, "We are personalists to the letter, so that when we say: "Guru Mahārāja," we always say the name, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda or Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. We don't just leave it in as vague "Guru Mahārāja." " So we were singing Jaya Prabhupāda, or Jaya gurudeva , and he was saying, "Well, that is impersonalist." *Acyutanānda: Also he says nitāi*-gaura haribol, that is also . . . that is māyā . What is that? Devotee (4): So he was saying that all these bhajanas , they're . . . they are not bona fide because they are . . . *Prabhupāda: Nitāi*-gaura haribol is not bona fide? Who said that, not bona fide? Devotee (4): Well not that. He was saying that jaya gurudeva, jaya Prabhupāda, that was not good. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (4): He was saying that is not good, " jaya gurudeva ," because it does not say who. It just says gurudeva ; it could be any gurudeva . So he was criticizing that. Prabhupāda: Who was? Devotee (4): Bhavānanda, because of the letter you wrote to him saying that we are personalists to the letter. Acyutanānda: So it means that I am a Māyāvādī. That is what it means. Devotee: Well, it's a matter of overall conduct, not just individual specific things. Acyutanānda: That overall I am a Māyāvādī. Devotee (6): I find that overall the bad atmosphere in India, the resentment against many of the devotees, party politics and different things like that are going on, which is not limited; it is going on all over . . . Devotee (4): That's very heavy . . . *Devotee (6): Just like with . . . just like with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. He has . . . has the respect of everyone now because he's doing such a good job of managing. He's just doing, he is performing nicely his devotional work, and he is getting some results. That's respect. Then you will get respect. Bali*-mardana Mahārāja, he has built up ISKCON Press, 'til it is just like that (snaps fingers), and everyone touches his feet when they see him. You don't find anyone disrespecting him, because he is performing his duties. You automatically get respect if you perform something nicely. Not just say: "Oh, the atmosphere is bad . . ." Prabhupāda: Well, we have got many faults we can find out, but generally if I behave nicely others will follow. That is the principle. I may have some faults, you may some. We are not liberated paramahaṁsas ; we are all trying. So generally we should behave very nicely according to rules and regulations: chanting sixteen rounds, rising early in the morning. Particularly maybe there is some discrepancies here and there. So . . . generally it is our general rules and . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all rising early in the morning, if he cleans, and if they read for a . . . (indistinct) . . . if these things are followed, chant sixteen rounds, then everything is there. *Devotee (4): In your lectures you emphasize two aspects that must be there: jñāna and renunciation. So some knowledge is there, but the part of the difficulty is that with most of the devotees in every temple in India is that they have not renounced these dirty things completely. They still are attached to sense gratification even on gross levels. So whether a sannyāsī or anybody interferes with their sense gratification, they tend to not oblige, because they are attached to doing things the way they want, and they think because they are in a foreign country, here a long way from America, where the standards are very rigid, that they can do any manner of nonsense and nobody would check them. And if you try to correct them, then they will only do it behind your back. We have seen this with the sweet shops, with rising early, anything that interferes with them doing exactly as they please. They don't want to oblige. And this is in Calcutta, this is in Bombay, and it is happening here in Vṛndāvana. It is not something that is isolated here to the Palace, but the devotees all over, they are just behaving on a level of sense gratification, and that is why there is so much rajas*-guṇa in the temples. So much rajas-guṇa . Prabhupāda: This is a fact. But how to correct it if you do not correct yourself? How it can happen? Devotee (4): Well we . . . many of us have tried to correct our self, and as a result we have been accused of being separatists simply because we don't want to go along with the nonsense that everybody else is doing, but we want to maintain some standard for our self, of reading and chanting, because we don't want to sit down and talk nonsense or do nonsense. And if you try to stop them, they will not stop. So why should we fall down to that level? So we behave as separatists. We go into our room and we will read, or we will go into our room and chant, or we will try to keep ourselves clean or try and do these things, and that is separatism because it is not falling into the level of māyā that is going on everywhere else in the temple—engaging in party politics and all these other things. That is . . . that is what I feel about it. Most of the devotees, they seem out of place . . . Prabhupāda: Now what is done is done. Now you try to correct others by behaving yourselves. Otherwise there is no need of keeping so many men. We have attempted this in Vṛndāvana. A few men may remain here, that's all. Otherwise it would be not very nice to attract. People are attracted by seeing your behavior. They are seeing that all Europeans and Americans, they have adopted such nice Vaiṣṇava culture. There are attracted from that point. But if we are not to the standard point, they immediately appeal, "Oh they are useless". So that should be corrected. The same principle: āpane ācare prabhu . . . they should behave also nicely and teach others; then it will be . . . Devotee (6): What co . . . *Prabhupāda: And another, this is general principle. Now we have discussed, now you try to follow. And another thing that, that Keśī*-ghāṭa, shall we make further progress? We have acquired that property obviously dropped. What is your opinion? From the circumstances, and that is now, because any temple it must be nicely, very nicely managed; otherwise we cannot maintain. Our Los Angeles temple, you know we attract people, you know it is so nicely managed, very nicely managed. You have seen? So unless . . . and that means there must be sufficient men to manage. Such a big temple . . . Devotee (6): I don't . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? *Devotee (6): I don't think that, that there is enough people to clean up and manage and keep clean Keśī*-ghāṭa. Maybe in the future sometime, but . . . Prabhupāda: At the present it is not. Devotee (6): It is so big, so big. Devotee: Also, the quality of people that are there, the mass people of a higher quality and a smaller place would do much more good. Like I was in the Philippines by myself, all alone, but still, the work could go on much quicker because I could avoid all of this. I could avoid all of this with what we are having right now. I could avoid it completely because there was nobody there to cause it. All new people. So . . . Devotee (6): Everybody here knows everything. (several devotees laugh) As, like . . . Devotee: It goes up very quickly, because the people are automatically attracted, and then you teach them, you train them. So last, Americans, and just one or two people that want to manage, and then start with the people here, the Indian people. And as they develop and become strong, then develop a center. It may take a long time, but it will be solid, be more solid then. Just bring a bunch of Americans here, and then the whole thing falls to pieces, and it will ruin our reputation in that particular area where we want to open a temple. Prabhupāda: What is your suggestion? Devotee: That we start a small center and then develop it gradually with less, ah, with less inexperienced people . . . Devotee (6): We had a small center here . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (6): We have had a small center here for nearly a year, eight months. Devotee (4): Well, well we are not saying . . . he's not saying that that's going to succeed, but at least it may not be as much of a travesty. Whether or not we are going to succeed at all in India in getting Indians to listen to what we were saying, that is another whole point. But . . . Devotee: At least we won't be killing ourselves. At least we won't be making it so that in the future we will have to leave India—we will be asked to leave, our visas will be taken away and we will be asked to leave. These things could happen very easily. It is not . . . it is not a . . . it is not a impossible thing. There are places in the world where we can't go already, Singapore—these things have happened. So I feel we should be very, very careful and selective about who we let in . . . Prabhupāda: In Singapore our men cannot enter. Devotee (4): Yeah . . . Devotee: This has happened. Devotee (4): Yeah. There is many places that, although legally we can enter, still, people don't like us, you know. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Yes. Singapore, legally also we cannot enter. Devotee (6): They wouldn't even let you in. Devotee (4): I think that his point, I think I . . . we spoke about this in Manila. It was that anywhere in the world, as a general policy, from what I've experienced, is that if one or two people are sent to an area or are in an area and they are given full authority to try to get that population to engage in bhakti - yoga , engage in this process, that that gradual development with the local people, that has more effect than, than if we bring in a big party and try to do a big thing. And then, then the person has to get strong who is doing it. If I have to go somewhere, then I have to . . . I have to get strong for myself; I have to, you know, start from scratch. Devotee (5): Yeah I know, I know the difficulty they are having, sannyāsīs have here, because many of these devotees think it is more like a tour, vacation, to come to India. They don't have to follow the rules and regulations. Devotee (4): Right. Devotee (5): They are only temporarily or they are just passing through. But it is very difficult, I know. But still we have to try to train somehow. Prabhupāda: Therefore we cannot establish very big establishment, because they come as a tourist. Devotee (5): Yeah. Devotee: And if the temple is constructed, they would have to be more rigidly controlled. They would have to be managed by people that, by their preaching and by their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can make it so that the people who come and stay in that temple will want to practice bhakti . Can't be a negative aspect thing, a negative motivation. You're not going to keep . . . Prabhupāda: No, such camps, because you're not established. So what are your suggestions? What is to be done? Devotee (5): Well . . . Prabhupāda: Shall we reduce, devotees? Devotee (5): Yes, we have our base in Calcutta . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (5): We have our base in Bombay, those two places. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee (5): Those are important cities in the world. Prabhupāda: And Vṛndāvana, as long as our temple is not constructed, we should minimize? Devotee (5): Yes. Prabhupāda: So then automatically there is no question of devotees sleeping. Devotees: No. Devotee: Because not everyone is going to, ah, want to be, ah, you know. If the temple is not there, where the devotees can just come and fall into the schedule and program and activities . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: . . . then they will not want to maintain any standard themselves. They will just fall back immediately into their old habits naturally. Devotee (5): Of course, if we could, we could enter the negotiation and save it for a future date, because it won't be available . . . Devotee (4): I don't think we need to worry about that. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (4): I think that if we, if we don't worry about the material thing at all, that if we do these . . . we start and we have a spiritual base, that it will grow naturally and Kṛṣṇa will provide us with any material facilities we need. We don't need to try to get things for the future. Devotee (5): Yeah. Devotee (4): If we have devotees, then . . . Devotee (5): That's why I was thinking Kṛṣṇa doesn't want us to have it, really. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: What is the use of having a giant temple if we are all . . . (laughs) We see that all over India. They have giant temples, but no . . . Prabhupāda: Management. Devotee: No management. Devotee (4): As far as the men, since I think a lot of them are even . . . some cases they are sending problem cases to India, people they can't manage in the States. (laughter) I think that maybe if you divide, if you actually . . . since in the States you divided the States into territories, and certain men have certain territories, if you maybe appoint certain people in charge of territories of India and ask them which men they want, then they will tell you who they want, and the rest they can send away or send somewhere else. Then you will have solid centers, because the men will actually be desired. Prabhupāda: That's . . . so we make that. Needed. Devotee (5): Isn't that . . . didn't Śaṅkarācārya do that? Divide it four parts? Devotee (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: We have . . . Śaṅkarācārya was concerned in India. Devotee (5): Yeah. Prabhupāda: But we are preaching all over the world. Therefore we have divided four, eh, twelve, twelve zones. Devotee (4): Hmm. Prabhupāda: Our . . . my idea is like that, Śaṅkarācārya. Devotee (5): But India itself could be divided even, a few parts for preaching . . . Prabhupāda: That is already divided: Calcutta, Bombay, Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. Devotee (5): So the men in charge, they could say which men they wanted to keep, and the rest they could sent somewhere else, and that way you would have men who were willing to work on the project. And they who are not willing to work, they could also be sent somewhere else. Prabhupāda: So make something like that, because I cannot tax my brain with the administration. Devotee (5): Yeah. Well Tamāla Kṛṣṇa will be in Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: We, eh, physically I am weak. I have decided if I have to see to the administration then I cannot think of writing books . . . Devotee (5): Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . how to present our philosophy to be understandable by the people. Therefore the administration is divided. Now you do it. Little intelligence. You have got still respect. Keep our standard; people will like us. People will also give us service. Just like this big sannyāsī , already the biggest sannyāsī , congressman, he is attracted, but he is a man of immense resource, men and money, eh. Immense resources. Devotee (5): We have to be careful not to . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (5): Not to, erm . . . Devotee (4): Offend them. Devotee (5): . . . offend these people . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (5): . . . and make spiritual . . . Prabhupāda: So, not offend. There is no question of offending. We should behave ourselves very nicely. Offending or pleasing, that is not relevant. Devotee (5): No. Prabhupāda: You cannot offend everyone, neither you can please everyone. That is not possible. You keep to your standard. Devotee (5): Hmm. Not . . . Prabhupāda: You keep to your own standard, then everything, everyone will see, "Oh, it is nice". Offending . . . you cannot please everyone; that is not possible, even if you behave very nicely. Caitanya Mahāprabhu could not please everyone. He had to start civil disobedience. Even Gandhi was killed. That is not possible. You cannot please everyone, but you must stick to your own principle and behave like that, just see. All right. (Devotees talking amongst themselves) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . someone said that, Prabhupāda said respect it (indistinct) Devotee (2): You can make offerings to it. Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda said offer whatever you get to it. Devotee (3): Offer it products. Devotee: And food. Devotee (2): Whatever you get. Devotee: Can you do this transfer? Devotee: Now this is . . . (break) (end) (Conversation in Hindi (Some English) During Lunch) HINDI TRANSCRIPTION भक्त: (घोषणा करते हुए) यह है। . . (अस्पष्ट) . . . वृन्दावन में, दोपहर के भोजन के समय। पहले तो जो गुरु हैं उनको प्रणाम करें। परन्तु बात ये नहीं है की हमलोग जन्म से जिससे अटैच्ड हैं। इसमें बहुत झगड़ा है। प्रभुपाद: क्या झगड़ा है? भक्त: प्रमाण है। प्रभुपाद: शास्त्र प्रमाण है। भक्त: ये आपका शिष्य जो कार्ल मास्टरजी के साथ गए थे इनसे पूछिए। है, है, तो क्या बोला? प्रभुपाद: क्या? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: है, है, तो क्या बोला? भक्त: मैं एहि बोला वो आपको सौ । दुसरे वर्ण के गुण पाए जाये अगर ब्राह्मण में शूद्र के गुण पाए जाये तो उसे शूद्र समझना चाहिए, ब्राह्मण नही। और वो आपने हमको बताया था श्रीमद भागवतम के स्कन्द से श्लोक में वो बोले की तीन प्रकार का शेर होता है। शेर वो तीन प्रकार का होता है, लायन। तो एक लायन उसको कहते हैं जो असली लायन। दूसरा लायन उसको कहते हैं जो लायन जैसा आदमी है। तीसरा लायन जो है सिर्फ पिक्चर का लायन। तो इस प्रकार तो एक ही है लेकिन भेद है। तो इस वाक्य के अंदर । प्रभुपाद: जो जैन श्रीधर स्वामी, वीर राघवाचार्य, विश्वनाथ चक्रवर्ती, भक्त: वो उनके जो दो-चार शिष्य थे हमको बोलने नहीं दिए, वो समझे की वो बहुत बड़े हैं और हम बहुत छोटे हैं। हम ज्यादा बोल नहीं सके। चैतन्य संप्रदाय में, रामानुजा संप्रदाय में, सब आपस में । वो लोग तो बोलता है की हम जो बोलता है वो शास्त्र है। ये जो आपका हरिद्वार में आये थे मध्वा संप्रदाय का एक आचार्य। तो वो बोलै के शास्त्रार्थ करेगा। जो विभूति है भगवान का है। भक्त: हम बताया की माना की एक दोष है। आप ९९९ गुण नहीं देखते हैं और एक दोष देखते हैं और उसको रिजेक्ट कर देते हैं। ये शायद आपके फिलॉस्फी के विपरीत, अलग है, भिन्न है। फिर भी आप देख सकते है की सारी दुनिया में किस तरह से विचार है। प्रभुपाद: हम उसको पकड़ते नहीं। श्रीधर स्वामी, वीर राघवाचार्य, विश्वनाथ चक्रवर्ती, जीव गोस्वामी, बड़े-बड़े सब आचार्य, वो सब अपने टिका में सपोर्ट करते हैं। वो तो बोला नहीं के तीन प्रकार का शेर होता है। ये सब बताया नहीं। एक शेर । बाकि ये जो भारत की दुर्दशा है झूट-मूट । अर्चे विष्णु शिलाधीर। जैसे भगवान का मूर्ति दर्शन करने के लिए सारा दुनिया से इधर आते हैं। और कोई आकरके ये तो पत्थर है जी, इसको देखने के लिए इतना मुर्ख आदमी सब आते हैं। बोलता है, आर्य समाज बोलता है। भक्त: हमलोग के यहाँ प्राण प्रतिष्ठा होने से मूर्ति में भगवान हैं। प्रभुपाद: प्राण प्रतिष्ठा जो शूद्र है वो ब्राह्मण प्रतिष्ठा नहीं हो सकेगा? एक पत्थर में प्राण प्रतिष्ठा होता है और एक जीवित है उसमे वैष्णव प्रतिष्ठा नहीं। देखिये क्या । पत्थर में प्राण प्रतिष्ठा और एक जीवित में, उसमे कोई प्रतिष्ठा नहीं। वो पत्थर से भी ज़बरदस्त है। ये विचार है। इफ यू कैन गिव लाइफ टू ए पत्थर, यू कन्नोट गिव ए लिविंग बीइंग कृष्ण भक्ति? भक्त: भक्ति का तो। प्रभुपाद: तो फिर और क्या है? भक्त: भक्ति का तो बहुत आदर करते हैं। पिछले जमाने में बोलते है हमारा हरिदास चमार था। प्रभुपाद: हमारा तो हरिदास ठाकुर मुस्लमान था। उसको हरिदास ठाकुर को अद्वैता आचार्य, प्रेजिडेंट ऑफ़ दी ब्राह्मण शांतिपुर उनको वो स्वाद पात्र दिया। तो वो हरिदास ठाकुर उनको बोला “अद्वैता प्रभु आप तो हमको बहुत यत्न करते हैं बाकि ये जो स्वाद पात्र हमको दिया इसमें तो आपको समाज में बड़ा मुश्किल रहेगा”। तो वो चैलेंज किया की कौन ऐसा ब्राह्मण है हमसे आ करके वो तर्क करें। हम जानते हैं की आपको खिलने से एक हज़ार ब्राह्मण का जो फल होता है वो मिलेगा। वो खामोश था। अद्वैता आचार्य जो ब्राह्मण समाज के प्रेजिडेंट उन्होंने कहा की आपको हरिदास ठाकुर मैं भोजन करा दिया एक हज़ार ब्राह्मण को भोजन करने से जो फल मिलता है, और वो था मुस्लमान। वो खुद ही कहा की महाराज आप हमको इतना चाहते हैं। आपको समाज में । और चैतन्य महाप्रभु हरिदास ठाकुर का डेड बॉडी ले करके कीर्तन किया, और उनका स्पष्ट बात है ये चैतन्य महाप्रभु कहा की चाहे ब्रह्मण होए चाहे शूद्र होए, और चाहे गृहस्त होए चाहे सन्यासी वो अगर कृष्ण प्राप्ति, कृष्ण तत्त्व वित्त है तो वो। “किबा विप्र, किबा न्यासी, शूद्र केने नए” इसलिए चैतन्य महाप्रभु प्रमाण स्वरुप ये हरिदास ठाकुर को नामचार्य बनाया, वेदांत आचार्य। ये नाम का आचार्य। नाम प्रचार करने को आया खुद आचार्य नहीं बना वो हरिदास ठाकुर को आचार्य बनाया, नामचार्य। इसलिए हमलोग जय कहते हैं नामचार्य श्रीला हरिदास ठाकुर की जय। है ये सब विचार तो इंडिया में ही रहेगा। अब तो बहार में और है। भक्त: ये तो किताब हम देखा नहीं। प्रभुपाद: इसका एक सीक्रेट है। प्रभुपाद: चैतन्य महाप्रभु किया। उन्होंने भविष्य वाणी कर दिया था प्रभुपाद: ये हम कभी बोला नहीं था आज बोल रहे हैं। सीक्रेट है की हम हम सोच रहा था। जब तक गुरु महाराज बोला की तुम वेस्टर्न कंट्री में जाओ और अंग्रेजी में प्रचार करो हम सोच रहे हैं की ये जो जब हम बोलेंगे की मीट ईटिंग, इल्लिसित सेक्स, मदिरा सेवन । बाकि ये हमारा दृढ़ विश्वास था जब चैतन्य महाप्रभु बोल दिया की सारा दुनिये में हमारा नाम प्रचार करो, ये कैसे गलत हो सकता है। ये हमारा विश्वास था। इसलिए ये वृन्दावन में सत्तर वर्ष आयु में हमने सोचा की गुरु महाराज ने बोला था, चैतन्य महाप्रभु बताये, चलो एक दफे हम ट्राई करते हैं। तो वो सक्सेस हुआ तो ये उनलोग का आशीर्वाद है। मैं तो होपलेस था की ये हो कैसे सकता है। बाकि ये विश्वास। ये विश्वास की चैतन्य महाप्रभु बोलै है तो जरूर होने वाला है। भक्त: ट्राई करते हैं (हंसी) प्रभुपाद: ये हमारा अट्टू विश्वास। चैतन्य महाप्रभु बताया है की सारा पृथ्वी इसको ग्रहण करे तो होपलेस होते हुए भी चलो एक दफा ट्राई करे। ये दृढ़ विश्वास। चैतन्य चरितामृत में बताये हैं "श्रद्धा शब्दे विश्वास सुदृढ़ निश्चय"। श्रद्धा वो उसी को श्रद्धा बोलै जाता है जिसका विश्वास सुदृढ़ निश्चय। कृष्णा भक्ति कैले। इतना तो हमारा विश्वास पूर्ण। आप सीक्रेट ऑफ़ सक्सेस चाहते थे एहि है सीक्रेट, विश्वास। कुयूं नहीं। चैतन्य फालतू बात बोलै है? भक्त: आप ने तो अमेरिका में कर दिया। मेरी भावना ये की आपको प्रभु प्रेम आ गयी है। ये तो कल हम गोवर्धन गया था भाई ये तो बड़ी विभूति है। आपके बारे में सब बात हुआ। हम बोले सब ऐसा-ऐसा है इतना । तब वो बोलै की कोई भी सक्सेस नहीं हुआ। वो क्या नाम है महेश योगी फ़ैल हो गया। कितना आदमी लोग गया, आप सक्सेस जो गए। प्रभुपाद: ये जो महेश योगी है न, इसका सेक्रेटरी, खास साथ में रहता है। वो उनको पूछा महाराज हम तो भगवान को चाहते हैं। हम तो भगवान को चाहते हैं। उनको मास्टरजी बोला की अगर तुम भगवान को चाहते हो तो, भक्ति वेदांत स्वामी , वो बोल दिया। भक्त: उनके पर्सनल थे, वो उनसे अलग हो गए। महेश योगी का सीक्रेट हमलोग जानता है क्यूंकि । ये शंकराचार्य थे न उनका शिष्य । तो बाद में उनसे अलग हो करके कुछ नहीं था। प्रभुपाद: उनका जो फिलोसोफी है, ये जो यूरोप, अमेरिकन है, जो योग-योग के पीछे जाते हैं, । ये जो सत्ता है योग कहके ठग-ठगके कुछ रूपया । भक्त: और इसी प्रभाव में बहुत इंडियन लोग भी है। । क्यूंकि उधर गर्मी की मौसम में बहुत आदमी लोग सत्संग में जाता है न । वो अपना गुरु से झगड़ा किया, वो बोलता है उनको पाइजन भी वोही दिया, फिर उनका ग्रुप था, वो मर गया, दूसरा कोई जो गया । प्रभुपाद: मुस्लमान को भी दीक्षा दिया। भक्त: यहां है क्या? (हंसी) प्रभुपाद: भक्त: तो महाराज ये है । मैंने आपकी बड़ी हिस्ट्री पढ़ी है। प्रभुपाद: ये अहमदाबाद में कोई स्वामी वो जगद्गुरु लिखता है। तो उसको चैलेंज करता है आप जगद्गुरु लिखा है, जगत कभी देखा भी है? इंडिया के बहार कभी गया? क्यों । भक्त: ठीक कहा। महाराज जी तो खुद सेल्फ-स्ट्य्लेड हैं। यहाँ भी एक हैं, मैं नाम नहीं लूँगा, वो महामण्डलेश्वर प्रभुपाद: अरे हमारा तो ये फिलोसोफी नहीं है जो हिन्दू मुस्लमान । भक्त: लेकिन, आप ऑटोमेटिकली । प्रभुपाद: कोई क्रिस्चियन को पूछता है क्रिस्चियन धर्म से भगवान की प्राप्ति हो सकती है की नहीं? शास्त्र में बताया उसको पालन करो। अब जैसे जीसस क्राइस्ट बोलता है "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" बट यू आर वैरी एक्सपर्ट इन किलिंग, व्हाट काइंड ऑफ़ क्रिस्चियन यू आर? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: असल में क्रिस्चियन वास्तविक हो । ये मुस्लमान है ठीक से अगर । क्यूंकि ये तो सब का अधिकार है की आदमी को भगवान का नाम सुनाये। मुस्लमान को जोकि उनको पांच दफे मस्जिद में जा करके सर झुका करके । तो ऐसा देश, काल, पात्र का उसमे रहेगा। ये तो आपको बाकि जो काम करने वाला है वो कहाँ तक भगवान का विषय कोई उसको समझाए। उसी । ये क्रिस्चियन लोग जो यहाँ देखिये टेन कमांडमेंट्स में है की "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" और जीसस क्राइस्ट को ही पहले क्रूसिफ़ाइ कर दिया। किस थे वो लोग? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: वो मना किया की किल नहीं करो और वो किल किया आपको पहले। भक्त: मैं आपको मिलने आये थे उनसे क्या बात कहूँ? प्रभुपाद: उनकी इच्छा है। ये जो आपका इधर में रिलिजन है, आप इधर क्यों । ये हमारा रिलिजन है नहीं उधर जाईये। देख के बोला इधर भी रिलिजन है नहीं। क्यूंकि क्राइस्ट बोलता है "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" और सब लोग किल करते हैं। भक्त: प्रभुपाद: से बोल रहा है। इधर तो रिलिजन है। हम तो करते हैं। उधर चर्च में है क्या, उधर कोई रिलिजन है नहीं। भक्त: प्रभुपाद: नहीं, मैं भी उसको जवाब दिया की इधर रिलिजन है। भक्त: हरे कृष्णा। (Conversation in Hindi (Some English) During Lunch) HINDI TRANSCRIPTION भक्त: (घोषणा करते हुए) यह है। . . (अस्पष्ट) . . . वृन्दावन में, दोपहर के भोजन के समय। पहले तो जो गुरु हैं उनको प्रणाम करें। परन्तु बात ये नहीं है की हमलोग जन्म से जिससे अटैच्ड हैं। इसमें बहुत झगड़ा है। प्रभुपाद: क्या झगड़ा है? भक्त: प्रमाण है। प्रभुपाद: शास्त्र प्रमाण है। भक्त: ये आपका शिष्य जो कार्ल मास्टरजी के साथ गए थे इनसे पूछिए। है, है, तो क्या बोला? प्रभुपाद: क्या? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: है, है, तो क्या बोला? भक्त: मैं एहि बोला वो आपको सौ । दुसरे वर्ण के गुण पाए जाये अगर ब्राह्मण में शूद्र के गुण पाए जाये तो उसे शूद्र समझना चाहिए, ब्राह्मण नही। और वो आपने हमको बताया था श्रीमद भागवतम के स्कन्द से श्लोक में वो बोले की तीन प्रकार का शेर होता है। शेर वो तीन प्रकार का होता है, लायन। तो एक लायन उसको कहते हैं जो असली लायन। दूसरा लायन उसको कहते हैं जो लायन जैसा आदमी है। तीसरा लायन जो है सिर्फ पिक्चर का लायन। तो इस प्रकार तो एक ही है लेकिन भेद है। तो इस वाक्य के अंदर । प्रभुपाद: जो जैन श्रीधर स्वामी, वीर राघवाचार्य, विश्वनाथ चक्रवर्ती, भक्त: वो उनके जो दो-चार शिष्य थे हमको बोलने नहीं दिए, वो समझे की वो बहुत बड़े हैं और हम बहुत छोटे हैं। हम ज्यादा बोल नहीं सके। चैतन्य संप्रदाय में, रामानुजा संप्रदाय में, सब आपस में । वो लोग तो बोलता है की हम जो बोलता है वो शास्त्र है। ये जो आपका हरिद्वार में आये थे मध्वा संप्रदाय का एक आचार्य। तो वो बोलै के शास्त्रार्थ करेगा। जो विभूति है भगवान का है। भक्त: हम बताया की माना की एक दोष है। आप ९९९ गुण नहीं देखते हैं और एक दोष देखते हैं और उसको रिजेक्ट कर देते हैं। ये शायद आपके फिलॉस्फी के विपरीत, अलग है, भिन्न है। फिर भी आप देख सकते है की सारी दुनिया में किस तरह से विचार है। प्रभुपाद: हम उसको पकड़ते नहीं। श्रीधर स्वामी, वीर राघवाचार्य, विश्वनाथ चक्रवर्ती, जीव गोस्वामी, बड़े-बड़े सब आचार्य, वो सब अपने टिका में सपोर्ट करते हैं। वो तो बोला नहीं के तीन प्रकार का शेर होता है। ये सब बताया नहीं। एक शेर । बाकि ये जो भारत की दुर्दशा है झूट-मूट । अर्चे विष्णु शिलाधीर। जैसे भगवान का मूर्ति दर्शन करने के लिए सारा दुनिया से इधर आते हैं। और कोई आकरके ये तो पत्थर है जी, इसको देखने के लिए इतना मुर्ख आदमी सब आते हैं। बोलता है, आर्य समाज बोलता है। भक्त: हमलोग के यहाँ प्राण प्रतिष्ठा होने से मूर्ति में भगवान हैं। प्रभुपाद: प्राण प्रतिष्ठा जो शूद्र है वो ब्राह्मण प्रतिष्ठा नहीं हो सकेगा? एक पत्थर में प्राण प्रतिष्ठा होता है और एक जीवित है उसमे वैष्णव प्रतिष्ठा नहीं। देखिये क्या । पत्थर में प्राण प्रतिष्ठा और एक जीवित में, उसमे कोई प्रतिष्ठा नहीं। वो पत्थर से भी ज़बरदस्त है। ये विचार है। इफ यू कैन गिव लाइफ टू ए पत्थर, यू कन्नोट गिव ए लिविंग बीइंग कृष्ण भक्ति? भक्त: भक्ति का तो। प्रभुपाद: तो फिर और क्या है? भक्त: भक्ति का तो बहुत आदर करते हैं। पिछले जमाने में बोलते है हमारा हरिदास चमार था। प्रभुपाद: हमारा तो हरिदास ठाकुर मुस्लमान था। उसको हरिदास ठाकुर को अद्वैता आचार्य, प्रेजिडेंट ऑफ़ दी ब्राह्मण शांतिपुर उनको वो स्वाद पात्र दिया। तो वो हरिदास ठाकुर उनको बोला “अद्वैता प्रभु आप तो हमको बहुत यत्न करते हैं बाकि ये जो स्वाद पात्र हमको दिया इसमें तो आपको समाज में बड़ा मुश्किल रहेगा”। तो वो चैलेंज किया की कौन ऐसा ब्राह्मण है हमसे आ करके वो तर्क करें। हम जानते हैं की आपको खिलने से एक हज़ार ब्राह्मण का जो फल होता है वो मिलेगा। वो खामोश था। अद्वैता आचार्य जो ब्राह्मण समाज के प्रेजिडेंट उन्होंने कहा की आपको हरिदास ठाकुर मैं भोजन करा दिया एक हज़ार ब्राह्मण को भोजन करने से जो फल मिलता है, और वो था मुस्लमान। वो खुद ही कहा की महाराज आप हमको इतना चाहते हैं। आपको समाज में । और चैतन्य महाप्रभु हरिदास ठाकुर का डेड बॉडी ले करके कीर्तन किया, और उनका स्पष्ट बात है ये चैतन्य महाप्रभु कहा की चाहे ब्रह्मण होए चाहे शूद्र होए, और चाहे गृहस्त होए चाहे सन्यासी वो अगर कृष्ण प्राप्ति, कृष्ण तत्त्व वित्त है तो वो। “किबा विप्र, किबा न्यासी, शूद्र केने नए” इसलिए चैतन्य महाप्रभु प्रमाण स्वरुप ये हरिदास ठाकुर को नामचार्य बनाया, वेदांत आचार्य। ये नाम का आचार्य। नाम प्रचार करने को आया खुद आचार्य नहीं बना वो हरिदास ठाकुर को आचार्य बनाया, नामचार्य। इसलिए हमलोग जय कहते हैं नामचार्य श्रीला हरिदास ठाकुर की जय। है ये सब विचार तो इंडिया में ही रहेगा। अब तो बहार में और है। भक्त: ये तो किताब हम देखा नहीं। प्रभुपाद: इसका एक सीक्रेट है। प्रभुपाद: चैतन्य महाप्रभु किया। उन्होंने भविष्य वाणी कर दिया था प्रभुपाद: ये हम कभी बोला नहीं था आज बोल रहे हैं। सीक्रेट है की हम हम सोच रहा था। जब तक गुरु महाराज बोला की तुम वेस्टर्न कंट्री में जाओ और अंग्रेजी में प्रचार करो हम सोच रहे हैं की ये जो जब हम बोलेंगे की मीट ईटिंग, इल्लिसित सेक्स, मदिरा सेवन । बाकि ये हमारा दृढ़ विश्वास था जब चैतन्य महाप्रभु बोल दिया की सारा दुनिये में हमारा नाम प्रचार करो, ये कैसे गलत हो सकता है। ये हमारा विश्वास था। इसलिए ये वृन्दावन में सत्तर वर्ष आयु में हमने सोचा की गुरु महाराज ने बोला था, चैतन्य महाप्रभु बताये, चलो एक दफे हम ट्राई करते हैं। तो वो सक्सेस हुआ तो ये उनलोग का आशीर्वाद है। मैं तो होपलेस था की ये हो कैसे सकता है। बाकि ये विश्वास। ये विश्वास की चैतन्य महाप्रभु बोलै है तो जरूर होने वाला है। भक्त: ट्राई करते हैं (हंसी) प्रभुपाद: ये हमारा अट्टू विश्वास। चैतन्य महाप्रभु बताया है की सारा पृथ्वी इसको ग्रहण करे तो होपलेस होते हुए भी चलो एक दफा ट्राई करे। ये दृढ़ विश्वास। चैतन्य चरितामृत में बताये हैं "श्रद्धा शब्दे विश्वास सुदृढ़ निश्चय"। श्रद्धा वो उसी को श्रद्धा बोलै जाता है जिसका विश्वास सुदृढ़ निश्चय। कृष्णा भक्ति कैले। इतना तो हमारा विश्वास पूर्ण। आप सीक्रेट ऑफ़ सक्सेस चाहते थे एहि है सीक्रेट, विश्वास। कुयूं नहीं। चैतन्य फालतू बात बोलै है? भक्त: आप ने तो अमेरिका में कर दिया। मेरी भावना ये की आपको प्रभु प्रेम आ गयी है। ये तो कल हम गोवर्धन गया था भाई ये तो बड़ी विभूति है। आपके बारे में सब बात हुआ। हम बोले सब ऐसा-ऐसा है इतना । तब वो बोलै की कोई भी सक्सेस नहीं हुआ। वो क्या नाम है महेश योगी फ़ैल हो गया। कितना आदमी लोग गया, आप सक्सेस जो गए। प्रभुपाद: ये जो महेश योगी है न, इसका सेक्रेटरी, खास साथ में रहता है। वो उनको पूछा महाराज हम तो भगवान को चाहते हैं। हम तो भगवान को चाहते हैं। उनको मास्टरजी बोला की अगर तुम भगवान को चाहते हो तो, भक्ति वेदांत स्वामी , वो बोल दिया। भक्त: उनके पर्सनल थे, वो उनसे अलग हो गए। महेश योगी का सीक्रेट हमलोग जानता है क्यूंकि । ये शंकराचार्य थे न उनका शिष्य । तो बाद में उनसे अलग हो करके कुछ नहीं था। प्रभुपाद: उनका जो फिलोसोफी है, ये जो यूरोप, अमेरिकन है, जो योग-योग के पीछे जाते हैं, । ये जो सत्ता है योग कहके ठग-ठगके कुछ रूपया । भक्त: और इसी प्रभाव में बहुत इंडियन लोग भी है। । क्यूंकि उधर गर्मी की मौसम में बहुत आदमी लोग सत्संग में जाता है न । वो अपना गुरु से झगड़ा किया, वो बोलता है उनको पाइजन भी वोही दिया, फिर उनका ग्रुप था, वो मर गया, दूसरा कोई जो गया । प्रभुपाद: मुस्लमान को भी दीक्षा दिया। भक्त: यहां है क्या? (हंसी) प्रभुपाद: भक्त: तो महाराज ये है । मैंने आपकी बड़ी हिस्ट्री पढ़ी है। प्रभुपाद: ये अहमदाबाद में कोई स्वामी वो जगद्गुरु लिखता है। तो उसको चैलेंज करता है आप जगद्गुरु लिखा है, जगत कभी देखा भी है? इंडिया के बहार कभी गया? क्यों । भक्त: ठीक कहा। महाराज जी तो खुद सेल्फ-स्ट्य्लेड हैं। यहाँ भी एक हैं, मैं नाम नहीं लूँगा, वो महामण्डलेश्वर प्रभुपाद: अरे हमारा तो ये फिलोसोफी नहीं है जो हिन्दू मुस्लमान । भक्त: लेकिन, आप ऑटोमेटिकली । प्रभुपाद: कोई क्रिस्चियन को पूछता है क्रिस्चियन धर्म से भगवान की प्राप्ति हो सकती है की नहीं? शास्त्र में बताया उसको पालन करो। अब जैसे जीसस क्राइस्ट बोलता है "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" बट यू आर वैरी एक्सपर्ट इन किलिंग, व्हाट काइंड ऑफ़ क्रिस्चियन यू आर? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: असल में क्रिस्चियन वास्तविक हो । ये मुस्लमान है ठीक से अगर । क्यूंकि ये तो सब का अधिकार है की आदमी को भगवान का नाम सुनाये। मुस्लमान को जोकि उनको पांच दफे मस्जिद में जा करके सर झुका करके । तो ऐसा देश, काल, पात्र का उसमे रहेगा। ये तो आपको बाकि जो काम करने वाला है वो कहाँ तक भगवान का विषय कोई उसको समझाए। उसी । ये क्रिस्चियन लोग जो यहाँ देखिये टेन कमांडमेंट्स में है की "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" और जीसस क्राइस्ट को ही पहले क्रूसिफ़ाइ कर दिया। किस थे वो लोग? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: वो मना किया की किल नहीं करो और वो किल किया आपको पहले। भक्त: मैं आपको मिलने आये थे उनसे क्या बात कहूँ? प्रभुपाद: उनकी इच्छा है। ये जो आपका इधर में रिलिजन है, आप इधर क्यों । ये हमारा रिलिजन है नहीं उधर जाईये। देख के बोला इधर भी रिलिजन है नहीं। क्यूंकि क्राइस्ट बोलता है "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" और सब लोग किल करते हैं। भक्त: प्रभुपाद: से बोल रहा है। इधर तो रिलिजन है। हम तो करते हैं। उधर चर्च में है क्या, उधर कोई रिलिजन है नहीं। भक्त: प्रभुपाद: नहीं, मैं भी उसको जवाब दिया की इधर रिलिजन है। भक्त: हरे कृष्णा। Prabhupāda: How can young man . . . (indistinct) . . . understand the aim of life? It is stated in . . . (indistinct) . . . they are being educated by the . . . (indistinct) . . . but they do not know what is the aim of life. What kind of education? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was reading an examination book in Bengal when we were in that small village. And under the psychology section they have one question, "What is the physical basis of consciousness?" This was standard question in Bengal on psychology for high school, "What is the physical basis of consciousness?" So that is what they are asking them. This is exactly . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . either. The subtlety. Eight: gross and subtle. Mind is subtle matter. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how does the subtle mind connect to the gross senses? Prabhupāda: Mind is the controller of the senses. With mind and the senses, six senses, the living being is struggling in this material world, prakṛti . Everyone is struggling, that is also true. Western theories, struggle for existence. They are struggling, and this is the relief, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When he gets Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . just like the other day, the Mathurā meeting, one small child, two years old, was young, and one boy took him on the stage, and his mother came. So how anxiously he went to his mother, happy, steady. He was feeling vacant, all world, without mother. So many people are gathering, but because he could not find out his mother, he was abject. That is struggle for existence. Everything is there, but he is finding better. And that is our position. We are also part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So without Kṛṣṇa the hard struggle for existence is going on. But as soon as he will get Kṛṣṇa, he will be relieved. That is natural, exactly like the child without mother. World, seeing everything vacant—at that stage he cried. That is exhibited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: (aside) Come on, this side. *Devotee: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you said in the purports that the subtle body—mind, intelligence and false ego . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Get the light on. Yes? Push it. Devotee: The subtle body determines what goes on in the gross body, next gross body. Prabhupāda: The subtle body does not determine. Devotee: His mind, intelligence and false ego? Prabhupāda: I make a situation, then the higher authorities, nature, or above nature, Kṛṣṇa, decides. When you are punished of the warders by the court, the decision is made by the authorities, not by you. There . . . Indian lady: . . . (indistinct Hindi) (aside) *Prabhupāda: Somebody give prasādam . We create a situation, and the decision is higher authority: karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). Daiva-netreṇa , higher authority. Otherwise everyone would have decided that, "I shall become a king." Why not everyone? Why one becomes a stool worm? That is hard decision. What he has done, how he has created his mentality—according to that. Kṛṣṇa is there within your heart. He knows everything. When He understands that, "He wants to become like this," then He orders through the material nature, "Give him a body like this." Kṛṣṇa orders māyā that, "Give him a body which is just like a machine," yantra . Yantra means a machine. So he is seated on a certain type of machine. If he has developed pig's mentality, nature will give him a body of a pig, and he will very gladly eat stool. Similarly, if he has developed the mentality of higher demigods, he'll have body. Similarly, if he has developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will go to Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . it depends on him. You develop. Therefore the best thing is to associate with devotees and develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and then go back to home. That is the best utility of your life. If you simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is, then you become liberated, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma , "After leaving of this body, he does not take up any more material body." Material body is subjected to change, one body after another, one body after another. According to his mentality he is given by nature different types of body. He suffers. So if you want to stop this suffering of pralīyate, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate , taking one birth or again giving up this body and again accepting another . . . they do not . . . they have . . . the conditioned soul has become so dull and rascal, he does not take seriously that, "Why I am dying?" Therefore they have made their own theory, that there is no life after death, everything finished after death. This is the opinion of the Western philosophers, big, big professor, like Professor Kotovsky, Indologist. He said: "Swamījī, after death everything is finished." That means they have no spiritual idea. And our spiritual idea begins from the acceptance of transmigration of the soul. You go even to a village, illiterate, he believes in transmigration of the soul. Ordinary illiterate villagers, he believes. You have seen in Vṛndāvana? The other day, four or five days before, he was. You know? He was with me, walking in the field, and the kṛṣān —some of them were poor . . . (indistinct) . . . they came to congratulate me, "Sir, you have come to our field. It is a great fortune. Come here!" And your country it is trespass. (laughter) "Beware of the dog!" "Private!" Warns everyone not to come to my jurisdiction. And here the illiterate, the kiṣān , he saw one saintly man, he thought, "It is my great fortune that he has come." That is the difference between East and West. There they take it as trespass: "Why this man has come to my land?" He can fire even. But still. *So taking birth in India, where Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken by the Supreme Lord, we are so bewildered that we do not take the knowledge seriously. How much unfortunate? We question about Kṛṣṇa's instruction and do not take it, and daily manufacture a type of formula. Big, big men like Mr. Mundar—such a nice man—he has manufactured religion, manah . Every day, one becoming a different type of incarnation and a different type of religious system. And to make a compliment big, big swāmīs they are saying: "Yes. Yata mata tata pat . Whatever you manufacture, it is all right." This is India's misfortune. By birth he is fortunate, by work he is misfortunate. This is the situation. He has taken birth in India, it is a great fortune, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila (CC Adi 9.41). And without taking advantage of the great birth, he is misguided by the rascals. The whole country is now killed. Killed. The demigods desired to come to take birth again in India. That is stated in the Bhāgavata . The climate, the atmosphere, the education, the knowledge, wealth of knowledge, saintly persons . . . Kṛṣṇa comes here; Lord Rāmacandra comes here; Caitanya Mahāprabhu. We are so unfortunate, and to give to these bad leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is leading hundreds of blind men, and everyone is falling to the ditch. (break) *What business? Because they have become so mad that directly they will simply argue. They will not accept. The prahar's business is to flatter them and request them, "Kindly take this. Kindly take this." Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya (Caitanya*-candrāmṛta). After taking the grass in the mouth—because this is Indian way of humbleness, to take a grass and approach a gentleman—that means he has become a very humble . . . (indistinct) *Then many flattering words I am submitting. So the man, he's approach him and say: "All right, you can say what is your desire. " Kāku-śatam kṛtvā ahaṁ bravīmi he sādhavaḥ . When you give chance, "All right, speak what you want to say." Then he says, he sādhavaḥ . Oh, he was a great sādhu . He sādhavaḥ, sakalam eva vihāya dūrād , "You are great sādhu , but kindly give up whatever nonsense you have learned." This is the . . . (indistinct) . . . Sakalam eva vihāya dūrād : "You are such a great person, but you are full of all nonsense knowledge. Kindly give it up." "Then what have I to do?" Caitanya*-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam : "You kindly be attached to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu." This is all right. We know he is a first-class fool, but he pretends to be a very learned scholar. So how he can be applaused? He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya : "Kindly give up all nonsensical ideas you have learned, and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." This is our . . . that is our preaching. So much nonsensical ideas they have developed. That is why it is very difficult. So this is the way of purport: he sādhavaḥ . If I say that you are rascal, (laughter) then you will be angry. Murkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śanta : if you advise good thing to a rascal, he will be angry, that is all. Therefore very politely, he sādhavaḥ, "You are a great sādhu , but one request, that is—forget all nonsense you have learned." That's all. In India they have simply learned all nonsense at the present moment. They have given up Kṛṣṇa's instruction, and they have learned all nonsense. Rubbish. This is going on. So if intelligent we learn at all, we shall give all nonsense ideas and take to Kṛṣṇa's instruction. That is the successful. Are you agreeable? (laughter) Ha! Devotee (2): (to guest) Are you agreeable? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? "All right," here you say. As soon as you go you will say: "No, you are nonsense. I am right." *And you become attached to Caitanya, Caitanya*-candra. You should become dearly attached to Caitanya-candra. Then you will become guru immediately. Caitanya-candra said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Wherever you are, there is a country," Caitanya-candra says: "you become a guru ." That is Caitanya. He asks everyone, every birth of India, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila (CC Adi 9.41). Anyone who has taken birth as human being in India is given so much facility. Janma sārthaka kari : make your life successful and become a guru . You have got the capacity. Devotee: Of course, the concept of transmigration of the soul is . . . *Prabhupāda: By birth you, you are so advanced. (aside) Take this. Simply by taking birth in India. Just like in the village, you go, mostly illiterate, personally they will see you immediately a saintly person, immediately believe in the transmigration of the soul. Still, how much advantage it is in India? Simply he has to adjust only things a little. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā (CC Madhya 7.128): "Every one of you become a guru ." "How? What shall I do to become a guru ? I am illiterate, I have no education. How I can become guru ?"Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa: you hear instruction of Kṛṣṇa and just transfer it. (aside) Go on. You hear from the right person that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, and you simply say: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme." But you do not do it. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "I am the Supreme." Aham ādir hi devānāṁ (BG 10.2). You hear it from right person and go everywhere and say: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Being," and you just become a devotee of Him. Then you become a guru . And if you cheat them, show them some jugglery and become yourself Kṛṣṇa, then what can you do? That is going on. The so-called gurus , rascals, they are trying to become Kṛṣṇa. Instead of preaching Kṛṣṇa's they are trying to become Kṛṣṇa. Is it possible? But they think Kṛṣṇa very insignificant. They do not know what is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. *They’re asuric. Mahā*-Viṣṇu, from whose breathing millions of universes are coming out and going in, this Mahā-Viṣṇu is a partial representation of Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya . Just like we inhale, exhale out, and so many atoms are coming out and going in. Similarly, Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing, and millions of universes are coming and going. That Mahā-Viṣṇu, viṣṇur mahān sa iha, yasya kalā-viśeṣo, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ , that is Kṛṣṇa. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11): those who are rascals are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, "Huh, Kṛṣṇa may be a little more intelligent than me. I am as good as Kṛṣṇa." This is going on, mūḍhās . (aside) Got it? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: Flowers. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Guest: Can I ask you a question? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Guest: Is the guru an absolute necessity for spiritual advancement? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: Is the guru an absolute necessity for spiritual advancement? Prabhupāda: What do you think? Guest: Because they are so rare, as you say it. There are so many gurus who are posing as . . . (indistinct) . . . which in itself disqualifies them to be gurus , and they are very rare. And how can one have gurus when they are so rare? Prabhupāda: Yes. When you go to purchase gold, you must have some idea what is gold. Otherwise you will be cheated. When you want to purchase gold you must have some idea of gold. If you have no idea, then you will be cheated. Guest: Then . . . Prabhupāda: First of all you must have to know, knowledge, what is guru . Otherwise you will be cheated. Guest: If one hasn’t got a guru , then how shall he advance? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is essential: ādau gurvāśra . But you do not know, at least, what is the nature of guru , then you will be cheated. Just like here the definition of guru I was speaking. You did not hear. You did not hear? Guest: No. Prabhupāda: I was speaking, and you did not hear? The symptom of guru ? Guest: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest: He should know . . . he himself should have realized, given . . . Prabhupāda: What is that realization? Guest: He should have experienced what is given . . . Devotee: What is that experience? *Prabhupāda: That means you are hearing, you’re thinking something else. I was just explaining what is guru a minute before, and you are asking the same question. Caitanya Mahāprabhu gives you the idea of guru , that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā, tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). He is saying that, "You become a guru . I order you." So what you will answer, sir? "I do not know anything. How shall I become guru ? Are you asking me to become a guru ?" The next line He says: "Yes. You can become guru immediately." Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa : "You simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṇa; *then you become a guru ." What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Idhar (here). So if you simply understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then you will understand guru also. You will not be cheated by so-called gurus . (break) Śiṣyas te 'haṁśādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). Therefore a guru means one who speaks on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, aiyee, he is guru . This is the definition of guru . Aiyee. There is no difficulty to find out guru . Just like if you want to purchase gold, you can purchase, although there is chance of being cheated. But you do not say that there is no gold. That you cannot say. Gold is there, but if you are a rascal you will be cheated. That is . . . depends on your knowledge. Gold is there, otherwise the world cannot go on. There is so many volumes of business in transactions of gold—going, coming, purchasing, selling. You cannot say there is no gold. But if you are a rascal, then you will be cheated. Somebody will give you iron and say: "It is gold. Take it." It depends upon you, a little intelligence. You cannot say because I have been cheated that there is no gold. Can you say like that? You do not know, you are a rascal. You do not know to find out where is gold, but you cannot say there is no gold. That is not possible. Real. Huh? Ki yuh? Because one has been cheated, he cannot say that there is no gold. Because you have been cheated by some counterfeit coins or notes, you cannot say there is no real note. It is your less intelligence you have been cheated. So guru's definition is given there in the śāstra , by the authorities. These are given, guru's symptoms. Just like we offer prayer to guru : *:prāptasya kalyāṇa*-guṇārṇavasya *Saṁsāra*-dāvānala , this material world is just like blazing fire— dāvānala , forest fire. In the forest nobody goes to set fire, it takes automatically by friction of dried bamboos. Nobody is interested to go to the forest to set fire, but still the fire takes place. Similarly, in this material world everyone wants to live very happily, but it is not allowed—there is fire. So guru means one who can save from this blazing fire. Prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya : that this forest fire . . . sometimes I was only . . . (indistinct) . . . go down the station, and there was forest fire upon the hill, and I asked them, "Why there is smoke?" They said: "There is fire, the very, very top height." Now who will go there to extinguish the fire? With your fire brigade or bucket of water? Who will be able to extinguish that fire? Then how the fire will be extinguished? Ghanāghanatvam , when there will be sufficient rainfall from the sky. That is guru's business: *Kāruṇya*-ghanā : guru is bestowed his so much mercy—cloud. A cloud is merciful, pours down rain and the fire becomes extinguished. Similarly, the guru , he has received such mercy from Kṛṣṇa, and he pours over, and the whole fire becomes . . . very good. Guest: I don't see how there are evil forces in the world. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: If the whole world is created by spiritual persons who found a spiritual source, how can there be evil forces? Devotee: (explaining) He is asking why there is evil in the world. If Kṛṣṇa is the creator of everything, why is there evil in the world? This is your question? Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa has created evil, or you have created evil? Answer this question. Guest: There is so many devils after . . . Prabhupāda: No, first of all answer this question. Evil . . . Guest: It is very puzzling, so I am asking you. Prabhupāda: No, whether you have created evil or Kṛṣṇa has created evil? You are infected with some disease, so you have infected or Kṛṣṇa has infected you? You are suffering from cholera, and the doctor says that you have infected cholera germ. So you have done it, or Kṛṣṇa has done it? Guest: It is a great riddle. Nobody has so far solved it. Devotee: (explaining) He says it is an unsolvable riddle so far. Prabhupāda: Not unsolvable. You are . . . you are going to jail, so your position of your going to jail is created by you or by Kṛṣṇa? Who has created that position? Hm? Answer this. Guest: What I wanted to say is that . . . Prabhupāda: You want to say, I want to say this. Answer this. Devotee: (explaining to guest) You commit a crime and go to jail. Are you responsible or is Kṛṣṇa responsible? Guest: Well, He will also have . . . *Prabhupāda: Why don't you understand that evil you create? Kṛṣṇa does not create. Kṛṣṇa wants to save you that, "You rascal, don't create evil. You surrender unto Me." Mūḍhā . Why you are creating evil? That is Kṛṣṇa's concern. Kṛṣṇa says: "You don't do it. Why you are doing that?" So who is creating evil? You are creating. You are creating your own evil, and you are accusing Kṛṣṇa. How much fool you are, just imagine. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya, mām (BG 18.66). "Why you are creating evil? You give up everything, come to Me." Why don't you go? And Kṛṣṇa is creating your evil? He is trying to save you from evil, and you are accusing Kṛṣṇa that He is creating. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo, mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66), and still you are accusing Kṛṣṇa. How much fool you are? Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.25). Find out this verse, tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair (BG 7.13). Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn’t it also true that if we think that Kṛṣṇa is creating this evil then we will never take a step to cure our own problem? Prabhupāda: Then that is avoiding Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa has created evil; why should I go to Kṛṣṇa?" This is the argument, "I shall create my own religion." That's all. Yata mat tata pat . Read it. Devotee: Prabhupāda: What is the translation? Read loud. Devotee: "Deluded by the three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance, the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible." Prabhupāda: Purport. Devotee: “The whole world is enchanted by three modes of material nature. Those who are bewildered by these three modes cannot understand that transcendental to this material nature is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. In this material world everyone is under the influence of these three guṇas and is thus bewildered. “By nature living entities have particular types of body and particular types of psychic and biological activities accordingly. There are four classes of men functioning in the three material modes of nature. Those who are purely in the mode of goodness are called brāhmaṇas . Those who are purely in the mode of passion are called kṣatriyas . Those who are in the modes of both passion and ignorance are called vaiśyas. Those who are completely in ignorance are called śūdras . And those who are less than that are animals or animal life. However, these designations are not permanent. I may be either a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or whatever—in any case, this life is temporary. But although life is temporary and we do not know what we are going to be in the next life, still, by the spell of this illusory energy, we consider ourselves in the light of this bodily conception of life, and we think that we are American, Indian, Russian or brāhmaṇa , Hindu, Muslim, etc. And if we become entangled with the modes of material nature, then we forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is behind all these modes. So Lord Kṛṣṇa says that men deluded by these three modes of nature do not understand that behind the material background is the Supreme Godhead. "There are many different kinds of living entities—human beings, demigods, animals, etc.—and each and every one of them is under the influence of material nature, and all of them have forgotten the transcendent Personality of Godhead. Those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, and even those who are in the mode of goodness, cannot go beyond the impersonal Brahman conception of the Absolute Truth. They are bewildered before the Supreme Lord in His personal feature, which possesses all beauty, opulence, knowledge, strength, fame and renunciation. When even those who are in goodness cannot understand, what hope is there for those in passion and ignorance? Kṛṣṇa consciousness is transcendental to all these three modes of material nature, and those who are truly established in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are actually liberated." Prabhupāda: So the conclusion is that we create our own evils. Guest: Whatever the destructive forces like . . . (indistinct) . . . have taken all these things. It is not created by demons. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: They are also destructive forces . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. To destroy you, because you are accusing Kṛṣṇa, then you shall be destroyed. Yes. (aside) Some of our men may . . . now make place for the outsiders. You can go upstairs. Eh? To chaliye sab. (So let's all go.) Devotee: . . . go see one . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That'll be nice. (break) Devotee (2): . . . *Bhāgavatam* that when there was a God conscious king, there was no natural disasters in the kingdom. Prabhupāda: Yes, because he was guiding the citizens to become God conscious. That is the duty of the king—to see that everyone is following his principles: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . That is secular state: that you may follow any path of religious system, but you must follow it. That is the duty of the state. If you say that you are Hindu, then you must follow the Hindu codes. If you say that you are a Christian, you must follow the Christian codes. But secular state does not mean that you become without religion. Whatever you profess, you do it nicely. That is government's duty to see—don't cheat. I am talking that I am a brāhmaṇa , and I am doing the cobbler's business—that is cheating. If you are doing the cobbler's business, you say that you are a cobbler. Why do you say that, "I am brāhmaṇa "? That is governments business. If you are doing the cobbler's business and professing as brāhmaṇa , you should be punished immediately. Just like a layman, he does not know anything about medical science, and keeping some bottles, false bottles, colored water. And if you declare sincerely that, "I am doctor, medical man," he is a cheater, he should be punished. Similarly, you profess your own way of religion, it doesn't matter, but you must follow that religion properly. *Just like Hindu religion, so who is a Hindu who does not accept Bhagavad*-gītā ? Then how he is Hindu if he does not accept Bhagavad-gītā ? If he says: "I am Hindu, but I don't believe in Bhagavad-gītā ," he should be immediately punished, that either you shall give up your name as Hindu or you must accept it, Bhagavad-gītā . If you say that you are Christian, you must accept Bible, the teachings of Bible. The teachings of Bible, the Ten Commandments, Christ says: "Thou shall not kill," and if you are killing, then you are not a Christian, you are cheater. The Muhammad says you must go five times to the mosque and offer prayers—if you want to kill animals, you must sacrifice it in this mosque. But he is not following that tenet, he is a cheater. It is state's duty is to see that either a Hindu or Muslim or Christian or anyone, he must following the religious principles. That is the duty. That is secular state. Not that because the state is secular you can do whatever you like. That is very irresponsible state. There is no harm, either you become a Christian or Hindu or Muslim. It doesn't matter. But you must follow the principles, then the state will be nice. If a man is strictly following some religious principle, it doesn't matter what religion he is following—then he is a good man. There is no doubt about it. No religion says that, "You become a thief, rascal." Just like in Muhammadan religion intoxication is strictly forbidden. In our Bhagavad-gītā also, the Buddha religion, ahiṁsā– but all the combined instruction of all the other religions you will find in Bhagavad-gītā . You find out this verse, ahiṁsā: *It includes all religious principles, the summary of all religions. Either a Hindu or a Muslim or a Christian—anyone can follow the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . *In Durban I was talking with some scholarly society. So there was a Indian, he belongs to the Ārya*-samāj , so he said that, "Swamījī, you are speaking on the Hindu conception of religion." Hindu conception of religion? When Kṛṣṇa says: *Dehāntara*-prāptir —a child is becoming a boy; *a boy is becoming a young man and a young man becoming an old man—is this Hindu conception? Just see. Rascals. A Muhammadan's child does not become a Muhammadan young man? The people are thinking, "Hindu conception." What do you mean by Hindu conception? When Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), that "You produce sufficient quantity of food grains, and everyone will be happy," is it meant for the Hindus, not for the Muhammadans? In this way study each and every verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . It is applicable to the whole human society. It is not a sectarian thing. Kṛṣṇa cannot speak anything sectarian. He says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the father of everyone." Does the father say anything particularly to one son and not for the others? If the father advises one son, "My dear boy, you do business like this. This is the way," is it meant for that particular boy and not for the others? Each and every verse you study, and you will see that it is meant for the whole human society. When He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), then what is that religion who will not think of God? Is there any religion which does not think of God? If one does not think of God, what kind of religion it is? So Bhagavad-gītā says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me—Kṛṣṇa, or God." So what is the wrong there? If I advise you, "You always think of God," it is a very wrong thing? So you study analytically. What is that verse, ahiṁs . . . amānitvam adambhitvam (BG 13.8). If you become humble and gentle, does it mean that you have to become a Hindu or Muslim? Every person should become humble and gentle, amānitvam adambhitvam . Ahiṁsā , you should not be violent. Every, each and every verse you study, it is not for the Hindus or Muhammadans. Everyone. For the human society. Devotee: Prabhupāda: Read the translation. Devotee: "Humility, pridelessness, nonviolence, tolerance, simplicity . . ." Prabhupāda: So is it for only for the Hindus? This instruction, what is that? Devotee: "Humility, pridelessness . . ." Prabhupāda: Humility. Pridelessness. Devotee: ". . . nonviolence . . ." Prabhupāda: Nonviolence. Devotee: ". . . tolerance . . ." Prabhupāda: Tolerance. Devotee: ". . . simplicity . . ." *Prabhupāda: Simplicity. What? What is that? Is it for the Hindus only? Or Muslims? Or Christians? How they are misguided, just see. And we are preaching this Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. How these Christians, they are taking? Even it is for Hindus, the Bible also teaches the same thing: "Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek." It is not sectarian at all. No religious book is sectarian, but according to the country, man. Just like in the Bible, Christ says: "Thou shalt not kill." So you can understand what kind of men they were—they are very expert in killing. Therefore the first instruction, "Thou shalt not kill" Because those who are sinful, killers, how they will understand about God? *One who is freed from all sinful activities, he can understand God. God is not so cheap. Yeṣāṁ tv anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ . These things have to be understood. I shall remain the most sinful man, and I want to understand God and I want to create God—this is going on. Guest: What is the difference between God, father and guru ? Prabhupāda: God is the supreme father. Guru is your father, your father is your father. God is supreme father. The Christian idea, God is the supreme father: "O God, give us our daily bread." Just like children in a family ask father, "Give me a biscuit," the father supplies. So God is supreme father—for everyone. Is there any difficulty? Is there any difficulty to understand? If God is the supreme father—is there any difficulty? Guest: If I pray "Our Father," then . . . (indistinct) . . . to Godhead? *Prabhupāda: Eh? What? He is the supreme father. He is father's father, grandfather's father, great*-grandfather's father—you go on. That is therefore He is called supreme father. If you stick to your father, there is no harm. Guest: Hindi me ek kahavat hai "guru govind dono khade kako lago pai balihari guru apne govind diyo batae" usme bataya hai pehle guru. (In Hindi there is a saying, " Guru govind dono khade kako lago pai balihari guru apne govind diyo batae ." That is first told to the master.) Prabhupāda: Guru kya batayeg sharab piyo to wo guru sala chor hai. (If the master says: "Drink alcohol," then he is a fraudulent master.) Guest: I am also asking this question . . . *Prabhupāda: First of all find out guru . Guru kaun hai abhi to bataya hai bar*-bar. Tomko jo bhagavan ka vishay batata hai wo guru hai aur nahi to chor hai. Guru to jante nahi nam dene se guru ho jata hai yehi to abhi bataya. Guru ka kam kya hai jo upar me le jayega wo guru hai guru ka matlab hai pocket-mar jo guru tumhara pocket me hai sab cheen liya bus ho gaya guru ye guru nahi guru ka kam hai tumko bachana. (Who is a master? Just now i told you again and again—one who tells you about God is a master, otherwise he is a cheater. I don't know who is a master—just by giving a name, he doesn't become a master. Just now I told what is the master's duty, to take you back home, back to Godhead. The master does not mean a cheater, one who takes away everything from your pocket and becomes a master this, is not a master. A master is one who saves you.) Pradyumna: "One who cannot deliver his dependents from the path of repeated birth and death should never become a spiritual master, a father, a husband, a mother or a worshipable demigod." Prabhupāda: Purport Pradyumna: "There are many spiritual masters, but Ṛṣabhadeva advises that one should not become a spiritual master if he is unable to save his disciple from the path of birth and death. Unless one is a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he cannot save himself from the path of repeated birth and death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti so'rjuna . One can stop birth and death only by returning home, back to Godhead. However, who can go back to Godhead unless he understands the Supreme Lord in truth? Janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ . We have many instances in history illustrating Ṛṣabhadeva's instructions. Śukrācārya was rejected by Bali Mahārāja due to his inability . . ." (break) (end) Prabhupāda: How can young man . . . (indistinct) . . . understand the aim of life? It is stated in . . . (indistinct) . . . they are being educated by the . . . (indistinct) . . . but they do not know what is the aim of life. What kind of education? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was reading an examination book in Bengal when we were in that small village. And under the psychology section they have one question, "What is the physical basis of consciousness?" This was standard question in Bengal on psychology for high school, "What is the physical basis of consciousness?" So that is what they are asking them. This is exactly . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . either. The subtlety. Eight: gross and subtle. Mind is subtle matter. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how does the subtle mind connect to the gross senses? Prabhupāda: Mind is the controller of the senses. With mind and the senses, six senses, the living being is struggling in this material world, prakṛti . Everyone is struggling, that is also true. Western theories, struggle for existence. They are struggling, and this is the relief, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When he gets Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . just like the other day, the Mathurā meeting, one small child, two years old, was young, and one boy took him on the stage, and his mother came. So how anxiously he went to his mother, happy, steady. He was feeling vacant, all world, without mother. So many people are gathering, but because he could not find out his mother, he was abject. That is struggle for existence. Everything is there, but he is finding better. And that is our position. We are also part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So without Kṛṣṇa the hard struggle for existence is going on. But as soon as he will get Kṛṣṇa, he will be relieved. That is natural, exactly like the child without mother. World, seeing everything vacant—at that stage he cried. That is exhibited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: (aside) Come on, this side. *Devotee: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you said in the purports that the subtle body—mind, intelligence and false ego . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Get the light on. Yes? Push it. Devotee: The subtle body determines what goes on in the gross body, next gross body. Prabhupāda: The subtle body does not determine. Devotee: His mind, intelligence and false ego? Prabhupāda: I make a situation, then the higher authorities, nature, or above nature, Kṛṣṇa, decides. When you are punished of the warders by the court, the decision is made by the authorities, not by you. There . . . Indian lady: . . . (indistinct Hindi) (aside) *Prabhupāda: Somebody give prasādam . We create a situation, and the decision is higher authority: karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). Daiva-netreṇa , higher authority. Otherwise everyone would have decided that, "I shall become a king." Why not everyone? Why one becomes a stool worm? That is hard decision. What he has done, how he has created his mentality—according to that. Kṛṣṇa is there within your heart. He knows everything. When He understands that, "He wants to become like this," then He orders through the material nature, "Give him a body like this." Kṛṣṇa orders māyā that, "Give him a body which is just like a machine," yantra . Yantra means a machine. So he is seated on a certain type of machine. If he has developed pig's mentality, nature will give him a body of a pig, and he will very gladly eat stool. Similarly, if he has developed the mentality of higher demigods, he'll have body. Similarly, if he has developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will go to Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . it depends on him. You develop. Therefore the best thing is to associate with devotees and develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and then go back to home. That is the best utility of your life. If you simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is, then you become liberated, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma , "After leaving of this body, he does not take up any more material body." Material body is subjected to change, one body after another, one body after another. According to his mentality he is given by nature different types of body. He suffers. So if you want to stop this suffering of pralīyate, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate , taking one birth or again giving up this body and again accepting another . . . they do not . . . they have . . . the conditioned soul has become so dull and rascal, he does not take seriously that, "Why I am dying?" Therefore they have made their own theory, that there is no life after death, everything finished after death. This is the opinion of the Western philosophers, big, big professor, like Professor Kotovsky, Indologist. He said: "Swamījī, after death everything is finished." That means they have no spiritual idea. And our spiritual idea begins from the acceptance of transmigration of the soul. You go even to a village, illiterate, he believes in transmigration of the soul. Ordinary illiterate villagers, he believes. You have seen in Vṛndāvana? The other day, four or five days before, he was. You know? He was with me, walking in the field, and the kṛṣān —some of them were poor . . . (indistinct) . . . they came to congratulate me, "Sir, you have come to our field. It is a great fortune. Come here!" And your country it is trespass. (laughter) "Beware of the dog!" "Private!" Warns everyone not to come to my jurisdiction. And here the illiterate, the kiṣān , he saw one saintly man, he thought, "It is my great fortune that he has come." That is the difference between East and West. There they take it as trespass: "Why this man has come to my land?" He can fire even. But still. *So taking birth in India, where Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken by the Supreme Lord, we are so bewildered that we do not take the knowledge seriously. How much unfortunate? We question about Kṛṣṇa's instruction and do not take it, and daily manufacture a type of formula. Big, big men like Mr. Mundar—such a nice man—he has manufactured religion, manah . Every day, one becoming a different type of incarnation and a different type of religious system. And to make a compliment big, big swāmīs they are saying: "Yes. Yata mata tata pat . Whatever you manufacture, it is all right." This is India's misfortune. By birth he is fortunate, by work he is misfortunate. This is the situation. He has taken birth in India, it is a great fortune, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila (CC Adi 9.41). And without taking advantage of the great birth, he is misguided by the rascals. The whole country is now killed. Killed. The demigods desired to come to take birth again in India. That is stated in the Bhāgavata . The climate, the atmosphere, the education, the knowledge, wealth of knowledge, saintly persons . . . Kṛṣṇa comes here; Lord Rāmacandra comes here; Caitanya Mahāprabhu. We are so unfortunate, and to give to these bad leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is leading hundreds of blind men, and everyone is falling to the ditch. (break) *What business? Because they have become so mad that directly they will simply argue. They will not accept. The prahar's business is to flatter them and request them, "Kindly take this. Kindly take this." Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya (Caitanya*-candrāmṛta). After taking the grass in the mouth—because this is Indian way of humbleness, to take a grass and approach a gentleman—that means he has become a very humble . . . (indistinct) *Then many flattering words I am submitting. So the man, he's approach him and say: "All right, you can say what is your desire. " Kāku-śatam kṛtvā ahaṁ bravīmi he sādhavaḥ . When you give chance, "All right, speak what you want to say." Then he says, he sādhavaḥ . Oh, he was a great sādhu . He sādhavaḥ, sakalam eva vihāya dūrād , "You are great sādhu , but kindly give up whatever nonsense you have learned." This is the . . . (indistinct) . . . Sakalam eva vihāya dūrād : "You are such a great person, but you are full of all nonsense knowledge. Kindly give it up." "Then what have I to do?" Caitanya*-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam : "You kindly be attached to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu." This is all right. We know he is a first-class fool, but he pretends to be a very learned scholar. So how he can be applaused? He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya : "Kindly give up all nonsensical ideas you have learned, and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." This is our . . . that is our preaching. So much nonsensical ideas they have developed. That is why it is very difficult. So this is the way of purport: he sādhavaḥ . If I say that you are rascal, (laughter) then you will be angry. Murkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śanta : if you advise good thing to a rascal, he will be angry, that is all. Therefore very politely, he sādhavaḥ, "You are a great sādhu , but one request, that is—forget all nonsense you have learned." That's all. In India they have simply learned all nonsense at the present moment. They have given up Kṛṣṇa's instruction, and they have learned all nonsense. Rubbish. This is going on. So if intelligent we learn at all, we shall give all nonsense ideas and take to Kṛṣṇa's instruction. That is the successful. Are you agreeable? (laughter) Ha! Devotee (2): (to guest) Are you agreeable? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? "All right," here you say. As soon as you go you will say: "No, you are nonsense. I am right." *And you become attached to Caitanya, Caitanya*-candra. You should become dearly attached to Caitanya-candra. Then you will become guru immediately. Caitanya-candra said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Wherever you are, there is a country," Caitanya-candra says: "you become a guru ." That is Caitanya. He asks everyone, every birth of India, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila (CC Adi 9.41). Anyone who has taken birth as human being in India is given so much facility. Janma sārthaka kari : make your life successful and become a guru . You have got the capacity. Devotee: Of course, the concept of transmigration of the soul is . . . *Prabhupāda: By birth you, you are so advanced. (aside) Take this. Simply by taking birth in India. Just like in the village, you go, mostly illiterate, personally they will see you immediately a saintly person, immediately believe in the transmigration of the soul. Still, how much advantage it is in India? Simply he has to adjust only things a little. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā (CC Madhya 7.128): "Every one of you become a guru ." "How? What shall I do to become a guru ? I am illiterate, I have no education. How I can become guru ?"Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa: you hear instruction of Kṛṣṇa and just transfer it. (aside) Go on. You hear from the right person that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, and you simply say: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme." But you do not do it. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "I am the Supreme." Aham ādir hi devānāṁ (BG 10.2). You hear it from right person and go everywhere and say: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Being," and you just become a devotee of Him. Then you become a guru . And if you cheat them, show them some jugglery and become yourself Kṛṣṇa, then what can you do? That is going on. The so-called gurus , rascals, they are trying to become Kṛṣṇa. Instead of preaching Kṛṣṇa's they are trying to become Kṛṣṇa. Is it possible? But they think Kṛṣṇa very insignificant. They do not know what is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. *They’re asuric. Mahā*-Viṣṇu, from whose breathing millions of universes are coming out and going in, this Mahā-Viṣṇu is a partial representation of Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya . Just like we inhale, exhale out, and so many atoms are coming out and going in. Similarly, Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing, and millions of universes are coming and going. That Mahā-Viṣṇu, viṣṇur mahān sa iha, yasya kalā-viśeṣo, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ , that is Kṛṣṇa. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11): those who are rascals are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, "Huh, Kṛṣṇa may be a little more intelligent than me. I am as good as Kṛṣṇa." This is going on, mūḍhās . (aside) Got it? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: Flowers. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Guest: Can I ask you a question? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Guest: Is the guru an absolute necessity for spiritual advancement? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: Is the guru an absolute necessity for spiritual advancement? Prabhupāda: What do you think? Guest: Because they are so rare, as you say it. There are so many gurus who are posing as . . . (indistinct) . . . which in itself disqualifies them to be gurus , and they are very rare. And how can one have gurus when they are so rare? Prabhupāda: Yes. When you go to purchase gold, you must have some idea what is gold. Otherwise you will be cheated. When you want to purchase gold you must have some idea of gold. If you have no idea, then you will be cheated. Guest: Then . . . Prabhupāda: First of all you must have to know, knowledge, what is guru . Otherwise you will be cheated. Guest: If one hasn’t got a guru , then how shall he advance? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is essential: ādau gurvāśra . But you do not know, at least, what is the nature of guru , then you will be cheated. Just like here the definition of guru I was speaking. You did not hear. You did not hear? Guest: No. Prabhupāda: I was speaking, and you did not hear? The symptom of guru ? Guest: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest: He should know . . . he himself should have realized, given . . . Prabhupāda: What is that realization? Guest: He should have experienced what is given . . . Devotee: What is that experience? *Prabhupāda: That means you are hearing, you’re thinking something else. I was just explaining what is guru a minute before, and you are asking the same question. Caitanya Mahāprabhu gives you the idea of guru , that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā, tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). He is saying that, "You become a guru . I order you." So what you will answer, sir? "I do not know anything. How shall I become guru ? Are you asking me to become a guru ?" The next line He says: "Yes. You can become guru immediately." Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa : "You simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṇa; *then you become a guru ." What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Idhar (here). So if you simply understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then you will understand guru also. You will not be cheated by so-called gurus . (break) Śiṣyas te 'haṁśādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). Therefore a guru means one who speaks on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, aiyee, he is guru . This is the definition of guru . Aiyee. There is no difficulty to find out guru . Just like if you want to purchase gold, you can purchase, although there is chance of being cheated. But you do not say that there is no gold. That you cannot say. Gold is there, but if you are a rascal you will be cheated. That is . . . depends on your knowledge. Gold is there, otherwise the world cannot go on. There is so many volumes of business in transactions of gold—going, coming, purchasing, selling. You cannot say there is no gold. But if you are a rascal, then you will be cheated. Somebody will give you iron and say: "It is gold. Take it." It depends upon you, a little intelligence. You cannot say because I have been cheated that there is no gold. Can you say like that? You do not know, you are a rascal. You do not know to find out where is gold, but you cannot say there is no gold. That is not possible. Real. Huh? Ki yuh? Because one has been cheated, he cannot say that there is no gold. Because you have been cheated by some counterfeit coins or notes, you cannot say there is no real note. It is your less intelligence you have been cheated. So guru's definition is given there in the śāstra , by the authorities. These are given, guru's symptoms. Just like we offer prayer to guru : *:prāptasya kalyāṇa*-guṇārṇavasya *Saṁsāra*-dāvānala , this material world is just like blazing fire— dāvānala , forest fire. In the forest nobody goes to set fire, it takes automatically by friction of dried bamboos. Nobody is interested to go to the forest to set fire, but still the fire takes place. Similarly, in this material world everyone wants to live very happily, but it is not allowed—there is fire. So guru means one who can save from this blazing fire. Prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya : that this forest fire . . . sometimes I was only . . . (indistinct) . . . go down the station, and there was forest fire upon the hill, and I asked them, "Why there is smoke?" They said: "There is fire, the very, very top height." Now who will go there to extinguish the fire? With your fire brigade or bucket of water? Who will be able to extinguish that fire? Then how the fire will be extinguished? Ghanāghanatvam , when there will be sufficient rainfall from the sky. That is guru's business: *Kāruṇya*-ghanā : guru is bestowed his so much mercy—cloud. A cloud is merciful, pours down rain and the fire becomes extinguished. Similarly, the guru , he has received such mercy from Kṛṣṇa, and he pours over, and the whole fire becomes . . . very good. Guest: I don't see how there are evil forces in the world. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: If the whole world is created by spiritual persons who found a spiritual source, how can there be evil forces? Devotee: (explaining) He is asking why there is evil in the world. If Kṛṣṇa is the creator of everything, why is there evil in the world? This is your question? Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa has created evil, or you have created evil? Answer this question. Guest: There is so many devils after . . . Prabhupāda: No, first of all answer this question. Evil . . . Guest: It is very puzzling, so I am asking you. Prabhupāda: No, whether you have created evil or Kṛṣṇa has created evil? You are infected with some disease, so you have infected or Kṛṣṇa has infected you? You are suffering from cholera, and the doctor says that you have infected cholera germ. So you have done it, or Kṛṣṇa has done it? Guest: It is a great riddle. Nobody has so far solved it. Devotee: (explaining) He says it is an unsolvable riddle so far. Prabhupāda: Not unsolvable. You are . . . you are going to jail, so your position of your going to jail is created by you or by Kṛṣṇa? Who has created that position? Hm? Answer this. Guest: What I wanted to say is that . . . Prabhupāda: You want to say, I want to say this. Answer this. Devotee: (explaining to guest) You commit a crime and go to jail. Are you responsible or is Kṛṣṇa responsible? Guest: Well, He will also have . . . *Prabhupāda: Why don't you understand that evil you create? Kṛṣṇa does not create. Kṛṣṇa wants to save you that, "You rascal, don't create evil. You surrender unto Me." Mūḍhā . Why you are creating evil? That is Kṛṣṇa's concern. Kṛṣṇa says: "You don't do it. Why you are doing that?" So who is creating evil? You are creating. You are creating your own evil, and you are accusing Kṛṣṇa. How much fool you are, just imagine. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya, mām (BG 18.66). "Why you are creating evil? You give up everything, come to Me." Why don't you go? And Kṛṣṇa is creating your evil? He is trying to save you from evil, and you are accusing Kṛṣṇa that He is creating. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo, mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66), and still you are accusing Kṛṣṇa. How much fool you are? Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.25). Find out this verse, tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair (BG 7.13). Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn’t it also true that if we think that Kṛṣṇa is creating this evil then we will never take a step to cure our own problem? Prabhupāda: Then that is avoiding Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa has created evil; why should I go to Kṛṣṇa?" This is the argument, "I shall create my own religion." That's all. Yata mat tata pat . Read it. Devotee: Prabhupāda: What is the translation? Read loud. Devotee: "Deluded by the three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance, the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible." Prabhupāda: Purport. Devotee: “The whole world is enchanted by three modes of material nature. Those who are bewildered by these three modes cannot understand that transcendental to this material nature is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. In this material world everyone is under the influence of these three guṇas and is thus bewildered. “By nature living entities have particular types of body and particular types of psychic and biological activities accordingly. There are four classes of men functioning in the three material modes of nature. Those who are purely in the mode of goodness are called brāhmaṇas . Those who are purely in the mode of passion are called kṣatriyas . Those who are in the modes of both passion and ignorance are called vaiśyas. Those who are completely in ignorance are called śūdras . And those who are less than that are animals or animal life. However, these designations are not permanent. I may be either a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or whatever—in any case, this life is temporary. But although life is temporary and we do not know what we are going to be in the next life, still, by the spell of this illusory energy, we consider ourselves in the light of this bodily conception of life, and we think that we are American, Indian, Russian or brāhmaṇa , Hindu, Muslim, etc. And if we become entangled with the modes of material nature, then we forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is behind all these modes. So Lord Kṛṣṇa says that men deluded by these three modes of nature do not understand that behind the material background is the Supreme Godhead. "There are many different kinds of living entities—human beings, demigods, animals, etc.—and each and every one of them is under the influence of material nature, and all of them have forgotten the transcendent Personality of Godhead. Those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, and even those who are in the mode of goodness, cannot go beyond the impersonal Brahman conception of the Absolute Truth. They are bewildered before the Supreme Lord in His personal feature, which possesses all beauty, opulence, knowledge, strength, fame and renunciation. When even those who are in goodness cannot understand, what hope is there for those in passion and ignorance? Kṛṣṇa consciousness is transcendental to all these three modes of material nature, and those who are truly established in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are actually liberated." Prabhupāda: So the conclusion is that we create our own evils. Guest: Whatever the destructive forces like . . . (indistinct) . . . have taken all these things. It is not created by demons. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: They are also destructive forces . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. To destroy you, because you are accusing Kṛṣṇa, then you shall be destroyed. Yes. (aside) Some of our men may . . . now make place for the outsiders. You can go upstairs. Eh? To chaliye sab. (So let's all go.) Devotee: . . . go see one . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That'll be nice. (break) Devotee (2): . . . *Bhāgavatam* that when there was a God conscious king, there was no natural disasters in the kingdom. Prabhupāda: Yes, because he was guiding the citizens to become God conscious. That is the duty of the king—to see that everyone is following his principles: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . That is secular state: that you may follow any path of religious system, but you must follow it. That is the duty of the state. If you say that you are Hindu, then you must follow the Hindu codes. If you say that you are a Christian, you must follow the Christian codes. But secular state does not mean that you become without religion. Whatever you profess, you do it nicely. That is government's duty to see—don't cheat. I am talking that I am a brāhmaṇa , and I am doing the cobbler's business—that is cheating. If you are doing the cobbler's business, you say that you are a cobbler. Why do you say that, "I am brāhmaṇa "? That is governments business. If you are doing the cobbler's business and professing as brāhmaṇa , you should be punished immediately. Just like a layman, he does not know anything about medical science, and keeping some bottles, false bottles, colored water. And if you declare sincerely that, "I am doctor, medical man," he is a cheater, he should be punished. Similarly, you profess your own way of religion, it doesn't matter, but you must follow that religion properly. *Just like Hindu religion, so who is a Hindu who does not accept Bhagavad*-gītā ? Then how he is Hindu if he does not accept Bhagavad-gītā ? If he says: "I am Hindu, but I don't believe in Bhagavad-gītā ," he should be immediately punished, that either you shall give up your name as Hindu or you must accept it, Bhagavad-gītā . If you say that you are Christian, you must accept Bible, the teachings of Bible. The teachings of Bible, the Ten Commandments, Christ says: "Thou shall not kill," and if you are killing, then you are not a Christian, you are cheater. The Muhammad says you must go five times to the mosque and offer prayers—if you want to kill animals, you must sacrifice it in this mosque. But he is not following that tenet, he is a cheater. It is state's duty is to see that either a Hindu or Muslim or Christian or anyone, he must following the religious principles. That is the duty. That is secular state. Not that because the state is secular you can do whatever you like. That is very irresponsible state. There is no harm, either you become a Christian or Hindu or Muslim. It doesn't matter. But you must follow the principles, then the state will be nice. If a man is strictly following some religious principle, it doesn't matter what religion he is following—then he is a good man. There is no doubt about it. No religion says that, "You become a thief, rascal." Just like in Muhammadan religion intoxication is strictly forbidden. In our Bhagavad-gītā also, the Buddha religion, ahiṁsā– but all the combined instruction of all the other religions you will find in Bhagavad-gītā . You find out this verse, ahiṁsā: *It includes all religious principles, the summary of all religions. Either a Hindu or a Muslim or a Christian—anyone can follow the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . *In Durban I was talking with some scholarly society. So there was a Indian, he belongs to the Ārya*-samāj , so he said that, "Swamījī, you are speaking on the Hindu conception of religion." Hindu conception of religion? When Kṛṣṇa says: *Dehāntara*-prāptir —a child is becoming a boy; *a boy is becoming a young man and a young man becoming an old man—is this Hindu conception? Just see. Rascals. A Muhammadan's child does not become a Muhammadan young man? The people are thinking, "Hindu conception." What do you mean by Hindu conception? When Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), that "You produce sufficient quantity of food grains, and everyone will be happy," is it meant for the Hindus, not for the Muhammadans? In this way study each and every verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . It is applicable to the whole human society. It is not a sectarian thing. Kṛṣṇa cannot speak anything sectarian. He says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the father of everyone." Does the father say anything particularly to one son and not for the others? If the father advises one son, "My dear boy, you do business like this. This is the way," is it meant for that particular boy and not for the others? Each and every verse you study, and you will see that it is meant for the whole human society. When He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), then what is that religion who will not think of God? Is there any religion which does not think of God? If one does not think of God, what kind of religion it is? So Bhagavad-gītā says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me—Kṛṣṇa, or God." So what is the wrong there? If I advise you, "You always think of God," it is a very wrong thing? So you study analytically. What is that verse, ahiṁs . . . amānitvam adambhitvam (BG 13.8). If you become humble and gentle, does it mean that you have to become a Hindu or Muslim? Every person should become humble and gentle, amānitvam adambhitvam . Ahiṁsā , you should not be violent. Every, each and every verse you study, it is not for the Hindus or Muhammadans. Everyone. For the human society. Devotee: Prabhupāda: Read the translation. Devotee: "Humility, pridelessness, nonviolence, tolerance, simplicity . . ." Prabhupāda: So is it for only for the Hindus? This instruction, what is that? Devotee: "Humility, pridelessness . . ." Prabhupāda: Humility. Pridelessness. Devotee: ". . . nonviolence . . ." Prabhupāda: Nonviolence. Devotee: ". . . tolerance . . ." Prabhupāda: Tolerance. Devotee: ". . . simplicity . . ." *Prabhupāda: Simplicity. What? What is that? Is it for the Hindus only? Or Muslims? Or Christians? How they are misguided, just see. And we are preaching this Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. How these Christians, they are taking? Even it is for Hindus, the Bible also teaches the same thing: "Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek." It is not sectarian at all. No religious book is sectarian, but according to the country, man. Just like in the Bible, Christ says: "Thou shalt not kill." So you can understand what kind of men they were—they are very expert in killing. Therefore the first instruction, "Thou shalt not kill" Because those who are sinful, killers, how they will understand about God? *One who is freed from all sinful activities, he can understand God. God is not so cheap. Yeṣāṁ tv anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ . These things have to be understood. I shall remain the most sinful man, and I want to understand God and I want to create God—this is going on. Guest: What is the difference between God, father and guru ? Prabhupāda: God is the supreme father. Guru is your father, your father is your father. God is supreme father. The Christian idea, God is the supreme father: "O God, give us our daily bread." Just like children in a family ask father, "Give me a biscuit," the father supplies. So God is supreme father—for everyone. Is there any difficulty? Is there any difficulty to understand? If God is the supreme father—is there any difficulty? Guest: If I pray "Our Father," then . . . (indistinct) . . . to Godhead? *Prabhupāda: Eh? What? He is the supreme father. He is father's father, grandfather's father, great*-grandfather's father—you go on. That is therefore He is called supreme father. If you stick to your father, there is no harm. Guest: Hindi me ek kahavat hai "guru govind dono khade kako lago pai balihari guru apne govind diyo batae" usme bataya hai pehle guru. (In Hindi there is a saying, " Guru govind dono khade kako lago pai balihari guru apne govind diyo batae ." That is first told to the master.) Prabhupāda: Guru kya batayeg sharab piyo to wo guru sala chor hai. (If the master says: "Drink alcohol," then he is a fraudulent master.) Guest: I am also asking this question . . . *Prabhupāda: First of all find out guru . Guru kaun hai abhi to bataya hai bar*-bar. Tomko jo bhagavan ka vishay batata hai wo guru hai aur nahi to chor hai. Guru to jante nahi nam dene se guru ho jata hai yehi to abhi bataya. Guru ka kam kya hai jo upar me le jayega wo guru hai guru ka matlab hai pocket-mar jo guru tumhara pocket me hai sab cheen liya bus ho gaya guru ye guru nahi guru ka kam hai tumko bachana. (Who is a master? Just now i told you again and again—one who tells you about God is a master, otherwise he is a cheater. I don't know who is a master—just by giving a name, he doesn't become a master. Just now I told what is the master's duty, to take you back home, back to Godhead. The master does not mean a cheater, one who takes away everything from your pocket and becomes a master this, is not a master. A master is one who saves you.) Pradyumna: "One who cannot deliver his dependents from the path of repeated birth and death should never become a spiritual master, a father, a husband, a mother or a worshipable demigod." Prabhupāda: Purport Pradyumna: "There are many spiritual masters, but Ṛṣabhadeva advises that one should not become a spiritual master if he is unable to save his disciple from the path of birth and death. Unless one is a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he cannot save himself from the path of repeated birth and death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti so'rjuna . One can stop birth and death only by returning home, back to Godhead. However, who can go back to Godhead unless he understands the Supreme Lord in truth? Janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ . We have many instances in history illustrating Ṛṣabhadeva's instructions. Śukrācārya was rejected by Bali Mahārāja due to his inability . . ." (break) (end) Indian man: . . . stayed with the devotees in the temple . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: . . . and reached the peace of mind which I was not able to get, whole of my life, I was able to achieve by staying in your temple myself. You know for example I am in my own . . . (break) Prabhupāda: As soon as you speak plain truth they will go away. (laughter) If you go on flattering, then they will stay. What is that? If you make Transcendental Meditation you will increase your sex power and . . . Indian: Rajneesh said that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian: Rajneesh said that. *Devotee: Less blood*-pressure. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Devotee: He said last night, less blood*-pressure, from meditation. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Less blood*-pressure. The difficulty is that we want to be cheated, and there are so many cheaters. There are cheaters—if they find, "Here is a man he can be easily cheated," he takes advantage. But mostly they want to be cheated. As soon as you say that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," he will not take it very nice. "Why shall I surrender?" Is it not? What do you think? "This is too much." That means he wants to be cheated, and if somebody comes, "Why shall you surrender to Kṛṣṇa? You are independent. Why you are taking . . . why you are becoming dependent on God? You are working hard. Why you are giving credit to God." Yes. Big, big sannyāsī has said like this. Indian lady: If they say like that, then they are not sannyāsīs in the real sense of the word. Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. He is a rascal . . . Indian lady: They are not sannyāsīs in the real sense of the word. Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ . This is the description. They do not surrender and they do not teach others to surrender. Then what they are? The formula is there: One who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they are described in this verse as duṣkṛtinaḥ , means most sinful; mūḍhāḥ , rascal; *narādhamāḥ , lowest of the mankind. "No, no. They are sannyāsī , very learned scholar." Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā : they have lost their knowledge by the influence of māyā . Why it is so? Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ . The root cause is that he is in rebellion against God. You'll find this rebellious men 99.9%. Rebellious. "Ha, what is God? I am God." You'll find. If you hold meeting that "Why you are after God? You are God. You will realize by meditate . . . by transcendental meditation you will become God, you are God." In this way if you bluff, thousands of people will come to hear your lecture, and as soon as you say: "God is there, and Kṛṣṇa is God. You surrender to Him," "Oh, these are old fools. Primitive." Kyon, hai ki nahi boliye. Yehi baat sab chal raha hai ki nahi? Aur aap boliye God nahi hai, khub aadmi ayega. Aur agar bol diye ki Krishna God hai to koi nahi ayega. Ye sectarian. (Why, tell me if it's true or not. Aren't these things going on? And if you say God does not exist, a lot of crowd will gather around. But if you say Kṛṣṇa is God then nobody will come. This is sectarian.) This is the position. Ayiye. (Please come.) Real understanding—to hear and to think over the matter. Tad viddhi . Viddhi means understand. *It is already there, Kṛṣṇa says. (break) Why he is wasting his time and money like that? It is already there: tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). Kṛṣṇa says. That means he does not believe in Kṛṣṇa. He is becoming more than Kṛṣṇa. Indian: Also he has collected so many facts. Prabhupāda: Why? What is the use of collecting facts if the fact is already there? Indian (2): Not it is there. Indian: It will be of some use to others, who don't believe. Prabhupāda: Don't believe in the rascals, mūḍhāḥ . So you can try for the mūḍhās . That is another thing. And waste your time. Indian (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But the fact is there already, any intelligent man can understand. Why . . . if they are trying for the mūḍhās , the mūḍhās will never understand. Devotee: Huh. Indian: So which way is better, bhakti mārga or karma mārga ? Prabhupāda: No mārga . Knowledge first of all. Indian: Knowledge and then . . . *Prabhupāda: This is knowledge. Kṛṣṇa begins Bhagavad*-gītā with this knowledge. Because Arjuna showed the symptoms as if he is not in knowledge, therefore He chastised him: "My dear Arjuna, you are talking just like very learned man, but," gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ , "the subject matter which you have taken, this body, and you are lamenting about this body—'The body of my brother will be finished, my this will be finished, this will happen, this will happen'—only on the bodily concept." So this body, either when there is life or when there is no life, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś nānuśocanti paṇḍ . . . "This is not the subject matter of a learned scholar to study this body. It is a lump of matter. Try to understand what is within the body." *This is the beginning of knowledge. One who does not know this knowledge, his knowledge has no value, nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . He is not a paṇḍita . In another place it is confirmed, yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke . One who is accepting this body, as self. Eh? One who is accepting this body . . . the whole world is going on. This is the subject matter of our preaching, that "You are not this body, you are soul. You are part and parcel of God. Do like this." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This is the beginning of understanding. But everyone is under this concept that, "I am this body." "I am Hindu, "I am Muslim," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that." So on this basic principle of ignorance there cannot be any knowledge. You may be research scholar and this scholar, that scholar. This is a no . . . no. It is not the fieldwork of knowledge. (aside:) Hmm. Bring one knife. Indian: Svāmī, svāmī, how to cultivate the concentration, and what is the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Concentration . . . you are doing other businesses with concentration. You are doing work in the office with concentration. You are studying things with concentration. Similarly, you have to bring concentration for understanding what you are. Where is the difficulty? Indian: Concentration towards to higher . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, concentration means if you study your body. Eh? So "What I am?" This subject matter you study, analyze your body. It is very easy, what is this body. First of all your breathing. Study what is his breathing. You'll say . . . you'll understand it is nothing but air. Do you think that breathing is life? Because this breathing, it is air, so when the breathing is stopped you can replace it by some mechanical arrangement. It is coming through the nose. But does it mean you can bring life? Hmm? So you study your breathing, you study your blood, you study your bone, you study your everything, whatever you have got, this combination—you'll find no life there. Then you understand that life is different from this material combination. This is concentration. You can do. It is very easy to analyze your whole body, and you'll find that that there is no life in these material ingredients, that life is different from this bodily combination. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā (BG 7.5). These material ingredients, they are inferior, aparā . There is a superior, superior thing, itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā . What is that? Jīva-bhūtā , that is living entity. So you can study your own thing, if you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Now Kṛṣṇa says like this, what is your objection? It is Hindu conception or Muslim conception? It is for everyone. Indian: Concentration is just . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian: A child's concentration is just, the other . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Hmm. You cannot cut it? Devotee: The knife is not very sharp . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: The knife is not very sharp. Indian: Hmm, that is not the way to cut it. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian: Take out this slice, some slice . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian: . . . and cut it into two pieces. Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know how to cut. One who knows, let him cut. Indian: Take out a full slice. Prabhupāda: Thoda dikha do. (Show him a little bit.) Indian: . . . (indistinct Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). (laughter) Devotee (2): This is sharp. Prabhupāda: Everything requires a guru; otherwise he remains a fool, rascal, that's all. Do do, usko do. (Give give, give it to him.) Indian: . . .(indistinct) . . . nahi hoga. (is not possible.) Prabhupāda: Prasad ka zyada box hai. Do na, do do. (There are many boxes of prasadam , give to him.) Hmm. Ab dekhiye . . . (Now, you see . . .) In every item you require a guru . And to understand Kṛṣṇa, or God, everyone is independent. (laughter) Just see the foolishness. Yata mata tata patha . "Ah, you consider about your own God. It doesn't require any guru ." This foolishness is going on. For cutting a mango he requires a guru , and to understand Kṛṣṇa, he doesn't require a guru . This foolishness is going on. And Kṛṣṇa says: Kṛṣṇa says you have to understand, like this. But everyone is thinking, "Why shall I go to guru?" (aside) Aur kato. (Cut some more.) What is this? Take this. Oh, that's all . . . Indian: Vegetable . . . (indistinct Hindi) Child: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Devotee (2): She just left. Indian: Ācchā . Prabhupāda: Why left? Indian: Ghar me kuch log aaye. (Some guests have come home.) Prabhupāda: Just see how he has cut. It requires a guru . (laughter) Here, this morning, I was citing that a brahmacārī should be very expert, dakṣā . Was I not explaining? Devotee: Behavior. Prabhupāda: So if you do not become expert, then there is deficiency. (aside) No, distribute this. First of all finish that, then . . . keep it, give everyone. One piece, everyone. Devotee: We cut it up smaller. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: For everyone, a little smaller. *Prabhupāda: No small. Give him. No, no, that's right. Hmm. Sab cheez Bhagavad*-Gita me hai. Usko theek-theek se padhe aur usme concentrate kare to sab gyan ho jayega. (All knowledge is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . One must read it scrutinizingly and concentrate on it, then all knowledge will come.) But if he wants to remain a fool, rascal, what can be done? Every direction is there, and it is given by Kṛṣṇa for this purpose, that when He will be absent, this is left for their study; *they will get knowledge. Thoda uske haat me pani do. Idhar aao, neeche jane ka zaroorat nahi, idhar dega pani. Okhan balti me jal aache? Dala. (Put a little water on his hands. Come here. No no, there is no need to go down, he will give water here. Is there water in that bucket? Put some.) We are simply canvassing that "You understand Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and you get all knowledge." This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Haat dho ke aao . . . (Wash your hands and come . . .) This is our mission. We are not manufacturing anything. That is not our purpose. As others are manufacturing the ways of realization, we don't do that. This is not our behavior, because we know we are personally defective. We are all fools. But what I am speaking, that is not defective—that is perfect, because we are speaking Kṛṣṇa's word. Hmm. That is not defective, that is perfect. So we are teaching our preachers that, "Don't say anything defective. Simply say what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. That is perfect." And whatever little success is there, only on account of this, that we don't manufacture anything, we simply present what Kṛṣṇa has said. Some imaginary . . . ek-ek sab manufacture karke bade-bade sab swami, yogi ye sab jata hai. Apna time bhi barbad karta hai aur doosro ka time bhi barbad karta hai. Ye sab chal raha hai. (Each one manufactures their own, the big big swamis , yogis go and preach. They waste their time and also waste the time of others. All these things are going on.) If the tree already is there, why should we manufacture and research? What is this research? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There are millions and millions of living entities, and they are making research in the laboratory how to produce life from matter. Just see. How rascaldom is going on. What credit you will get? Suppose you, in the laboratory, you produce one life from matter. Suppose. You have not done it, suppose you do it. Then what is credit to you? There are already millions and millions of lives. We are overcrowded. (laughter) And this rascal is trying to produce a life in the laboratory. Just see, how rascal they are. Indian: We may be thinking only God can produce this, but . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from God, but what credit you'll get if already there are millions and millions of living entities all around? What credit you will get, suppose in the test tube you create one life in the laboratory? Who will give you credit? Only the fools and rascals will give. I will not give. We know that already there are so many lives. So we give that person who has created so many lives. Why shall I give you credit? Hmm? There are millions and millions of goldmines, eh? So I shall give the credit to Him, or a rascal producing a little piece of gold I shall give him credit? If gold producing is so important that one who has created millions and millions of mines of gold . . . Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: . . . he is to take credit . . . (aside) Oh, come on . . . (laughter) He is to take credit, or one who has produced a little piece of gold, he is to take credit? Boliye , whom I shall give credit? Last year I went to South America, er, Africa. In the Johannesburg city there are so many goldmines. In the city, so many goldmines. So who has created this gold? (aside) Thank you. So many goldmines I have seen. And this is in one planet, there are millions of planets there are also goldmines. Who has created this gold? Somebody has created. So whom shall I give credit? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . or this? Indian (2): I think by jñāna mārga they are working with Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: What is jñāna ? If they do not take the jñāna given by Kṛṣṇa, what is jñāna*-mārga ? It is ajñāna-mārga . Kṛṣṇa is giving you jñāna —you refuse to take it—and what is your jñāna-mārga ? Indian (2): As your disciple knows, they were spreading . . . Prabhupāda: No disciple or your disciple. I say that if there is jñāna already, so if you don't accept it, then what is your jñāna mārga then? Indian (2): No, they accept the jñāna , and then they utilize it . . . Indian: What is the meaning of jñāna ? Indian (2): Huh? Indian: What is the definition of jñāna ? Indian (2): No, I mean what is the fact? Prabhupāda: So what do you think, fact? Indian (2): After seeing the mountain, they found that it, how the mountain is built, and they have created cement. So we can build houses, just like Kṛṣṇa's agent. Likewise I humbly think that in jñāna mārga they seem to work, those who are doing it. Prabhupāda: To manufacture cement? Indian (2): No. Manufacturing anything, they are also going with Kṛṣṇa, going with the nature. They are not going against the nature. And we, or one people are going against nature, and so we are suffering. If we are sick, doctor advises to go with the nature. Prabhupāda: (aside) Thank you. Hmm. Jñāna mārga , if you actually in knowledge, that is jñāna mārga . But if you not in knowledge, that is not jñāna mārga . Indian (2): (several talking simultaneously) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian: Knowledge of the self is jñāna mārga . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the first knowledge. Indian: It is not in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all you have to know what you are. Because you are trying to adjust things to mitigate your distress and increasing your happiness. This is the struggle. Everyone is struggle for minimizing distress or making zero distress and getting happiness. But do you think in this world this is obtained, this stage is achieved, that there is no distress, only happiness? Then what is your jñāna mārga ? If there is still distress, then what is your jñāna mārga ? That means ajñāna mārga . You are trying, making research, to banish distress and get happiness, but if you have not gained that position, then where is your jñāna mārga ? Who has obtained that position that there is no distress, simply happiness? Is there anybody here? Everyone says: "Oh, I am so much distressed." Then where is jñāna mārga ? Indian: But there's nothing wrong in enquiring into the . . . Prabhupāda: No, you can waste your time . . . Indian: . . . into the nature. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another foolishness. That is another foolishness. If you search out in your own way, moghāśā mogha*-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). If you do not know the way, then what is the use? You will be baffled. You will be baffled. Suppose in the airplane, if you do not know which side I shall go to Calcutta, then you will be baffled. He must know which side—north, east, west, the latitude, longitude—then the pilot is expert. Suppose I am on the plane, and the pilot is there. Without pilot we are all bewildered. We do not know. Suppose if somehow or other on the plane the pilot is finished, then see what is your condition. Your all jñāna mārga will be finished. Indian (2): You can't go then. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So without pilot there is no jñāna mārga . Indian: Ye gyan marga do prakar ka bataya jata hai kya? (Is this path of knowledge described as two types?) Prabhupāda: Gyan marg do prakar ka, ek mūrkha mārga hota hai, gyan marg hota hai. Jo gyan marg me hai nahi vo moorkha marg me hai bus. Agar moorkh marg ko koi gyan marg samajh le to do number ka moorkh hai. Double mūrkha hai. This is going on. Gyan marg ka arth hota hai jo gyani hai, usko baat se chalo to gyan marg chalega. (The path of knowledge is of two types. One is the fool's path and the other is the knowledge path. One who is not in the path of knowledge is on the fool's path, that's all. If someone considers the fool's path as the path of knowledge then he is number two fool, he is a double fool. This is going on. The meaning of the knowledge path is when one follows the words of the realized soul, that is the path of knowledge.) Indian: Aeroplane kisne banaya tha? (Who built the airplane?) Prabhupāda: Jo banaya, aeroplane me agar kisi tarah se wo pilot hai, khatam ho jata hai . . . (Whoever made it, if somehow the pilot of the airplane is destroyed . . .) Indian: Aeroplane banane wala to gyan marg me hi hota hai na? (The one who built the airplane, he is in the path of knowledge, right?) *Prabhupāda: Aise to chidiya bhi bana leta hai apna nest, uska bhi gyan hai. Wo bhi janta hai ek chota*-chota . . .(indistinct) . . . le aa karke kaise sundar ek nest bana leta hai. Aap dekha hai, Babui, ek pakshi hoti hai wo apna kaisa ghar bana leti hai. Aisa gyan chidiya me hai, cheeti me hai, wo aap se kuch farak nahi hai. "Aahar, nidra, bhaya, maithun" ye sab gyan sab me hai. Ye na samajhiye ki ye gyan aap hi me hai, cement bana ke skyscraper bana diya. Wo gyan sab me hai, apna - apna aavashyata ke anusar sab apna bana lete hain. Wo gyan marg nahi hai. (In that sense, even a bird makes it's own nest, it also has knowledgeable. Even the bird knows, how to gather small small twigs, and makes a beautiful nest out of it. Have you seen how the Babui bird builds its house? The birds have got this kind of knowledge, even an ant has got it. That's not different from us. Aahar nidra bhaya maithun , all this knowledge is present with everyone. Don't think that only you have got this knowledge of making cement and building a skyscraper. This knowledge is there in everyone. According to their requirements they build it. That is not the path of knowledge.) Tad vijñānam, it is said. The ordinary jñāna is not recommended. Tad vijñānam. Viśeṣa jñāna, or scientific knowledge, that is wanted. Aur aisa gyan, chor ka bhi gyan hota hai kis tarah se chori karna hai. Jo chori karta hai wo moorkh nahi hota hai, bada gyani hota hai, kis tarah se chori karna hota hai. Usko gyani bola jayega? Bada accha gyani chor hai ji, isko PhD card de do. Ye gyan nahi hai (laughter) Etad jñānam. Just see what is jñānam. Eh. Kisko gyan bolta hai suniye. ( And similar knowledge even a thief has, how to steal. And a thief who steals is not a fool, he is very intelligent, he knows how to steal. So can a thief be called realized? Very nice realized thief sir, award him a PhD title. This is not knowledge. Etad jñānam. Just see what is jñānam. Listen, who is actually called a knowledgeable person.) Amānitvam adambhitvam , in the Thirteenth Chapter you will find, amānitvam adambhitvam (BG 13.8). Indian: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam , ācāryopāsanaṁ . Hmm. Read it. Devotee: There's five verses together. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: *Prabhupāda: Adhyātma*-jñāna-nityatvaṁ . Then? Devotee: Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: Etaj jñānam iti proktam . . . Prabhupāda: Etaj jñānam . This is jñāna . Or all rascals. Indian: Etaj jñānam , vijñānaṁ . Prabhupāda: Ye jñānam . Or all rascaldom. Etaj jñānam . . . Devotee: Iti proktam . Prabhupāda: . . . iti proktam . This is accepted knowledge. And then? Devotee: Ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā . Prabhupāda: Ah. Except this, all are ajñānam , all rascaldom. The cement manufacturer is a rascal, and the atom bomb rascal—all rascal. And here is jñāna . Etaj jñānam . Everything is there. Etaj jñānam . Then? Yad ato 'nyathā ajñānaṁ . Is it not? Devotee: Ha. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: Etaj jñānam iti proktam ajñānaṁ yad ato . . . Prabhupāda: Anyathā . Indian: Anyathā . Prabhupāda: Iti proktam , it is accepted this is jñāna . Yad anyathā ajñānaṁ . Indian: What was going on just now, for a long time . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian: . . . was just meditation, without knowledge, which actually . . . Prabhupāda: This is meditation. Indian: No, which was actually speculation. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian: Meditation with knowledge, that becomes devotion. Prabhupāda: Yes, knowledge you have to receive from the person who knows. That is knowledge. Indian: If I question someone . . . Prabhupāda: If you manufacturer knowledge, that is ignorance. Indian: So if it was just meditation but without the air of knowledge . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, meditation means . . . Indian: . . . it was just speculation . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Meditation . . . Indian: . . . and we were just speculating in different directions. *Prabhupāda: . . . that is defined, that dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena (SB 12.13.1). Dhyānāva , this is meditation. So this is meditation, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). Yogī , they want to see Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ (BG 18.61), Īśvara is there, so yoga means to find out that īśvaraḥ within the heart. That is real yoga . Indian: The effort was there, but they were just speculating. Prabhupāda: No, effort, any effort, if you do not follow . . . Indian: Yes . . . Prabhupāda: . . . the instruction of higher authority, this is useless effort. Simply waste of time. You cannot become by your own effort a medical man. That is not possible. You have to go to the medical college, you have to learn under the medical man—then you become a medical man. Otherwise, if you sit down at home and meditate on medical science, what you will get? You will simply waste your time. First of all know what is jñānam . The first jñāna is amānitvam . What is the meaning is there? Devotee: Humility. Prabhupāda: Humility. The first requisition is humility that, "I have no knowledge; I have to go to somebody who has knowledge." This is humility. And if you think, "I have got very advanced knowledge. Why shall I go to anyone?" there is no entrance in knowledge. He is finished in the beginning. " amānitvam adambhitvam ahimsa shanti aarjavam " everything is there. This is gyanam , etad gyanam proktam agyanam yad anyatha . And as soon as we debate these fools think we are in agyanam , foolish. So while gyanam is there, shy we should become agyanam . Prabhupāda: Yes, ārati . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Aarti chal rahi hai mandir me, sab aaiyega. ( Arati is going on in the temple, everyone should come.) Devotee: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Devotees: (offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Yes, also. (break) Everyone should become a preacher. Devotee: Sometime we should go to Bihar also? Prabhupāda: Why not? Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (Caitanya Bhāgavata). (aside) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Indian man: . . . stayed with the devotees in the temple . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: . . . and reached the peace of mind which I was not able to get, whole of my life, I was able to achieve by staying in your temple myself. You know for example I am in my own . . . (break) Prabhupāda: As soon as you speak plain truth they will go away. (laughter) If you go on flattering, then they will stay. What is that? If you make Transcendental Meditation you will increase your sex power and . . . Indian: Rajneesh said that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian: Rajneesh said that. *Devotee: Less blood*-pressure. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Devotee: He said last night, less blood*-pressure, from meditation. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Less blood*-pressure. The difficulty is that we want to be cheated, and there are so many cheaters. There are cheaters—if they find, "Here is a man he can be easily cheated," he takes advantage. But mostly they want to be cheated. As soon as you say that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," he will not take it very nice. "Why shall I surrender?" Is it not? What do you think? "This is too much." That means he wants to be cheated, and if somebody comes, "Why shall you surrender to Kṛṣṇa? You are independent. Why you are taking . . . why you are becoming dependent on God? You are working hard. Why you are giving credit to God." Yes. Big, big sannyāsī has said like this. Indian lady: If they say like that, then they are not sannyāsīs in the real sense of the word. Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. He is a rascal . . . Indian lady: They are not sannyāsīs in the real sense of the word. Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ . This is the description. They do not surrender and they do not teach others to surrender. Then what they are? The formula is there: One who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they are described in this verse as duṣkṛtinaḥ , means most sinful; mūḍhāḥ , rascal; *narādhamāḥ , lowest of the mankind. "No, no. They are sannyāsī , very learned scholar." Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā : they have lost their knowledge by the influence of māyā . Why it is so? Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ . The root cause is that he is in rebellion against God. You'll find this rebellious men 99.9%. Rebellious. "Ha, what is God? I am God." You'll find. If you hold meeting that "Why you are after God? You are God. You will realize by meditate . . . by transcendental meditation you will become God, you are God." In this way if you bluff, thousands of people will come to hear your lecture, and as soon as you say: "God is there, and Kṛṣṇa is God. You surrender to Him," "Oh, these are old fools. Primitive." Kyon, hai ki nahi boliye. Yehi baat sab chal raha hai ki nahi? Aur aap boliye God nahi hai, khub aadmi ayega. Aur agar bol diye ki Krishna God hai to koi nahi ayega. Ye sectarian. (Why, tell me if it's true or not. Aren't these things going on? And if you say God does not exist, a lot of crowd will gather around. But if you say Kṛṣṇa is God then nobody will come. This is sectarian.) This is the position. Ayiye. (Please come.) Real understanding—to hear and to think over the matter. Tad viddhi . Viddhi means understand. *It is already there, Kṛṣṇa says. (break) Why he is wasting his time and money like that? It is already there: tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). Kṛṣṇa says. That means he does not believe in Kṛṣṇa. He is becoming more than Kṛṣṇa. Indian: Also he has collected so many facts. Prabhupāda: Why? What is the use of collecting facts if the fact is already there? Indian (2): Not it is there. Indian: It will be of some use to others, who don't believe. Prabhupāda: Don't believe in the rascals, mūḍhāḥ . So you can try for the mūḍhās . That is another thing. And waste your time. Indian (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But the fact is there already, any intelligent man can understand. Why . . . if they are trying for the mūḍhās , the mūḍhās will never understand. Devotee: Huh. Indian: So which way is better, bhakti mārga or karma mārga ? Prabhupāda: No mārga . Knowledge first of all. Indian: Knowledge and then . . . *Prabhupāda: This is knowledge. Kṛṣṇa begins Bhagavad*-gītā with this knowledge. Because Arjuna showed the symptoms as if he is not in knowledge, therefore He chastised him: "My dear Arjuna, you are talking just like very learned man, but," gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ , "the subject matter which you have taken, this body, and you are lamenting about this body—'The body of my brother will be finished, my this will be finished, this will happen, this will happen'—only on the bodily concept." So this body, either when there is life or when there is no life, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś nānuśocanti paṇḍ . . . "This is not the subject matter of a learned scholar to study this body. It is a lump of matter. Try to understand what is within the body." *This is the beginning of knowledge. One who does not know this knowledge, his knowledge has no value, nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . He is not a paṇḍita . In another place it is confirmed, yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke . One who is accepting this body, as self. Eh? One who is accepting this body . . . the whole world is going on. This is the subject matter of our preaching, that "You are not this body, you are soul. You are part and parcel of God. Do like this." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This is the beginning of understanding. But everyone is under this concept that, "I am this body." "I am Hindu, "I am Muslim," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that." So on this basic principle of ignorance there cannot be any knowledge. You may be research scholar and this scholar, that scholar. This is a no . . . no. It is not the fieldwork of knowledge. (aside:) Hmm. Bring one knife. Indian: Svāmī, svāmī, how to cultivate the concentration, and what is the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Concentration . . . you are doing other businesses with concentration. You are doing work in the office with concentration. You are studying things with concentration. Similarly, you have to bring concentration for understanding what you are. Where is the difficulty? Indian: Concentration towards to higher . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, concentration means if you study your body. Eh? So "What I am?" This subject matter you study, analyze your body. It is very easy, what is this body. First of all your breathing. Study what is his breathing. You'll say . . . you'll understand it is nothing but air. Do you think that breathing is life? Because this breathing, it is air, so when the breathing is stopped you can replace it by some mechanical arrangement. It is coming through the nose. But does it mean you can bring life? Hmm? So you study your breathing, you study your blood, you study your bone, you study your everything, whatever you have got, this combination—you'll find no life there. Then you understand that life is different from this material combination. This is concentration. You can do. It is very easy to analyze your whole body, and you'll find that that there is no life in these material ingredients, that life is different from this bodily combination. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā (BG 7.5). These material ingredients, they are inferior, aparā . There is a superior, superior thing, itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā . What is that? Jīva-bhūtā , that is living entity. So you can study your own thing, if you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Now Kṛṣṇa says like this, what is your objection? It is Hindu conception or Muslim conception? It is for everyone. Indian: Concentration is just . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian: A child's concentration is just, the other . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Hmm. You cannot cut it? Devotee: The knife is not very sharp . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: The knife is not very sharp. Indian: Hmm, that is not the way to cut it. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian: Take out this slice, some slice . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian: . . . and cut it into two pieces. Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know how to cut. One who knows, let him cut. Indian: Take out a full slice. Prabhupāda: Thoda dikha do. (Show him a little bit.) Indian: . . . (indistinct Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). (laughter) Devotee (2): This is sharp. Prabhupāda: Everything requires a guru; otherwise he remains a fool, rascal, that's all. Do do, usko do. (Give give, give it to him.) Indian: . . .(indistinct) . . . nahi hoga. (is not possible.) Prabhupāda: Prasad ka zyada box hai. Do na, do do. (There are many boxes of prasadam , give to him.) Hmm. Ab dekhiye . . . (Now, you see . . .) In every item you require a guru . And to understand Kṛṣṇa, or God, everyone is independent. (laughter) Just see the foolishness. Yata mata tata patha . "Ah, you consider about your own God. It doesn't require any guru ." This foolishness is going on. For cutting a mango he requires a guru , and to understand Kṛṣṇa, he doesn't require a guru . This foolishness is going on. And Kṛṣṇa says: Kṛṣṇa says you have to understand, like this. But everyone is thinking, "Why shall I go to guru?" (aside) Aur kato. (Cut some more.) What is this? Take this. Oh, that's all . . . Indian: Vegetable . . . (indistinct Hindi) Child: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Devotee (2): She just left. Indian: Ācchā . Prabhupāda: Why left? Indian: Ghar me kuch log aaye. (Some guests have come home.) Prabhupāda: Just see how he has cut. It requires a guru . (laughter) Here, this morning, I was citing that a brahmacārī should be very expert, dakṣā . Was I not explaining? Devotee: Behavior. Prabhupāda: So if you do not become expert, then there is deficiency. (aside) No, distribute this. First of all finish that, then . . . keep it, give everyone. One piece, everyone. Devotee: We cut it up smaller. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: For everyone, a little smaller. *Prabhupāda: No small. Give him. No, no, that's right. Hmm. Sab cheez Bhagavad*-Gita me hai. Usko theek-theek se padhe aur usme concentrate kare to sab gyan ho jayega. (All knowledge is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . One must read it scrutinizingly and concentrate on it, then all knowledge will come.) But if he wants to remain a fool, rascal, what can be done? Every direction is there, and it is given by Kṛṣṇa for this purpose, that when He will be absent, this is left for their study; *they will get knowledge. Thoda uske haat me pani do. Idhar aao, neeche jane ka zaroorat nahi, idhar dega pani. Okhan balti me jal aache? Dala. (Put a little water on his hands. Come here. No no, there is no need to go down, he will give water here. Is there water in that bucket? Put some.) We are simply canvassing that "You understand Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and you get all knowledge." This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Haat dho ke aao . . . (Wash your hands and come . . .) This is our mission. We are not manufacturing anything. That is not our purpose. As others are manufacturing the ways of realization, we don't do that. This is not our behavior, because we know we are personally defective. We are all fools. But what I am speaking, that is not defective—that is perfect, because we are speaking Kṛṣṇa's word. Hmm. That is not defective, that is perfect. So we are teaching our preachers that, "Don't say anything defective. Simply say what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. That is perfect." And whatever little success is there, only on account of this, that we don't manufacture anything, we simply present what Kṛṣṇa has said. Some imaginary . . . ek-ek sab manufacture karke bade-bade sab swami, yogi ye sab jata hai. Apna time bhi barbad karta hai aur doosro ka time bhi barbad karta hai. Ye sab chal raha hai. (Each one manufactures their own, the big big swamis , yogis go and preach. They waste their time and also waste the time of others. All these things are going on.) If the tree already is there, why should we manufacture and research? What is this research? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There are millions and millions of living entities, and they are making research in the laboratory how to produce life from matter. Just see. How rascaldom is going on. What credit you will get? Suppose you, in the laboratory, you produce one life from matter. Suppose. You have not done it, suppose you do it. Then what is credit to you? There are already millions and millions of lives. We are overcrowded. (laughter) And this rascal is trying to produce a life in the laboratory. Just see, how rascal they are. Indian: We may be thinking only God can produce this, but . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from God, but what credit you'll get if already there are millions and millions of living entities all around? What credit you will get, suppose in the test tube you create one life in the laboratory? Who will give you credit? Only the fools and rascals will give. I will not give. We know that already there are so many lives. So we give that person who has created so many lives. Why shall I give you credit? Hmm? There are millions and millions of goldmines, eh? So I shall give the credit to Him, or a rascal producing a little piece of gold I shall give him credit? If gold producing is so important that one who has created millions and millions of mines of gold . . . Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: . . . he is to take credit . . . (aside) Oh, come on . . . (laughter) He is to take credit, or one who has produced a little piece of gold, he is to take credit? Boliye , whom I shall give credit? Last year I went to South America, er, Africa. In the Johannesburg city there are so many goldmines. In the city, so many goldmines. So who has created this gold? (aside) Thank you. So many goldmines I have seen. And this is in one planet, there are millions of planets there are also goldmines. Who has created this gold? Somebody has created. So whom shall I give credit? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . or this? Indian (2): I think by jñāna mārga they are working with Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: What is jñāna ? If they do not take the jñāna given by Kṛṣṇa, what is jñāna*-mārga ? It is ajñāna-mārga . Kṛṣṇa is giving you jñāna —you refuse to take it—and what is your jñāna-mārga ? Indian (2): As your disciple knows, they were spreading . . . Prabhupāda: No disciple or your disciple. I say that if there is jñāna already, so if you don't accept it, then what is your jñāna mārga then? Indian (2): No, they accept the jñāna , and then they utilize it . . . Indian: What is the meaning of jñāna ? Indian (2): Huh? Indian: What is the definition of jñāna ? Indian (2): No, I mean what is the fact? Prabhupāda: So what do you think, fact? Indian (2): After seeing the mountain, they found that it, how the mountain is built, and they have created cement. So we can build houses, just like Kṛṣṇa's agent. Likewise I humbly think that in jñāna mārga they seem to work, those who are doing it. Prabhupāda: To manufacture cement? Indian (2): No. Manufacturing anything, they are also going with Kṛṣṇa, going with the nature. They are not going against the nature. And we, or one people are going against nature, and so we are suffering. If we are sick, doctor advises to go with the nature. Prabhupāda: (aside) Thank you. Hmm. Jñāna mārga , if you actually in knowledge, that is jñāna mārga . But if you not in knowledge, that is not jñāna mārga . Indian (2): (several talking simultaneously) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian: Knowledge of the self is jñāna mārga . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the first knowledge. Indian: It is not in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all you have to know what you are. Because you are trying to adjust things to mitigate your distress and increasing your happiness. This is the struggle. Everyone is struggle for minimizing distress or making zero distress and getting happiness. But do you think in this world this is obtained, this stage is achieved, that there is no distress, only happiness? Then what is your jñāna mārga ? If there is still distress, then what is your jñāna mārga ? That means ajñāna mārga . You are trying, making research, to banish distress and get happiness, but if you have not gained that position, then where is your jñāna mārga ? Who has obtained that position that there is no distress, simply happiness? Is there anybody here? Everyone says: "Oh, I am so much distressed." Then where is jñāna mārga ? Indian: But there's nothing wrong in enquiring into the . . . Prabhupāda: No, you can waste your time . . . Indian: . . . into the nature. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another foolishness. That is another foolishness. If you search out in your own way, moghāśā mogha*-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). If you do not know the way, then what is the use? You will be baffled. You will be baffled. Suppose in the airplane, if you do not know which side I shall go to Calcutta, then you will be baffled. He must know which side—north, east, west, the latitude, longitude—then the pilot is expert. Suppose I am on the plane, and the pilot is there. Without pilot we are all bewildered. We do not know. Suppose if somehow or other on the plane the pilot is finished, then see what is your condition. Your all jñāna mārga will be finished. Indian (2): You can't go then. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So without pilot there is no jñāna mārga . Indian: Ye gyan marga do prakar ka bataya jata hai kya? (Is this path of knowledge described as two types?) Prabhupāda: Gyan marg do prakar ka, ek mūrkha mārga hota hai, gyan marg hota hai. Jo gyan marg me hai nahi vo moorkha marg me hai bus. Agar moorkh marg ko koi gyan marg samajh le to do number ka moorkh hai. Double mūrkha hai. This is going on. Gyan marg ka arth hota hai jo gyani hai, usko baat se chalo to gyan marg chalega. (The path of knowledge is of two types. One is the fool's path and the other is the knowledge path. One who is not in the path of knowledge is on the fool's path, that's all. If someone considers the fool's path as the path of knowledge then he is number two fool, he is a double fool. This is going on. The meaning of the knowledge path is when one follows the words of the realized soul, that is the path of knowledge.) Indian: Aeroplane kisne banaya tha? (Who built the airplane?) Prabhupāda: Jo banaya, aeroplane me agar kisi tarah se wo pilot hai, khatam ho jata hai . . . (Whoever made it, if somehow the pilot of the airplane is destroyed . . .) Indian: Aeroplane banane wala to gyan marg me hi hota hai na? (The one who built the airplane, he is in the path of knowledge, right?) *Prabhupāda: Aise to chidiya bhi bana leta hai apna nest, uska bhi gyan hai. Wo bhi janta hai ek chota*-chota . . .(indistinct) . . . le aa karke kaise sundar ek nest bana leta hai. Aap dekha hai, Babui, ek pakshi hoti hai wo apna kaisa ghar bana leti hai. Aisa gyan chidiya me hai, cheeti me hai, wo aap se kuch farak nahi hai. "Aahar, nidra, bhaya, maithun" ye sab gyan sab me hai. Ye na samajhiye ki ye gyan aap hi me hai, cement bana ke skyscraper bana diya. Wo gyan sab me hai, apna - apna aavashyata ke anusar sab apna bana lete hain. Wo gyan marg nahi hai. (In that sense, even a bird makes it's own nest, it also has knowledgeable. Even the bird knows, how to gather small small twigs, and makes a beautiful nest out of it. Have you seen how the Babui bird builds its house? The birds have got this kind of knowledge, even an ant has got it. That's not different from us. Aahar nidra bhaya maithun , all this knowledge is present with everyone. Don't think that only you have got this knowledge of making cement and building a skyscraper. This knowledge is there in everyone. According to their requirements they build it. That is not the path of knowledge.) Tad vijñānam, it is said. The ordinary jñāna is not recommended. Tad vijñānam. Viśeṣa jñāna, or scientific knowledge, that is wanted. Aur aisa gyan, chor ka bhi gyan hota hai kis tarah se chori karna hai. Jo chori karta hai wo moorkh nahi hota hai, bada gyani hota hai, kis tarah se chori karna hota hai. Usko gyani bola jayega? Bada accha gyani chor hai ji, isko PhD card de do. Ye gyan nahi hai (laughter) Etad jñānam. Just see what is jñānam. Eh. Kisko gyan bolta hai suniye. ( And similar knowledge even a thief has, how to steal. And a thief who steals is not a fool, he is very intelligent, he knows how to steal. So can a thief be called realized? Very nice realized thief sir, award him a PhD title. This is not knowledge. Etad jñānam. Just see what is jñānam. Listen, who is actually called a knowledgeable person.) Amānitvam adambhitvam , in the Thirteenth Chapter you will find, amānitvam adambhitvam (BG 13.8). Indian: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam , ācāryopāsanaṁ . Hmm. Read it. Devotee: There's five verses together. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: *Prabhupāda: Adhyātma*-jñāna-nityatvaṁ . Then? Devotee: Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: Etaj jñānam iti proktam . . . Prabhupāda: Etaj jñānam . This is jñāna . Or all rascals. Indian: Etaj jñānam , vijñānaṁ . Prabhupāda: Ye jñānam . Or all rascaldom. Etaj jñānam . . . Devotee: Iti proktam . Prabhupāda: . . . iti proktam . This is accepted knowledge. And then? Devotee: Ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā . Prabhupāda: Ah. Except this, all are ajñānam , all rascaldom. The cement manufacturer is a rascal, and the atom bomb rascal—all rascal. And here is jñāna . Etaj jñānam . Everything is there. Etaj jñānam . Then? Yad ato 'nyathā ajñānaṁ . Is it not? Devotee: Ha. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: Etaj jñānam iti proktam ajñānaṁ yad ato . . . Prabhupāda: Anyathā . Indian: Anyathā . Prabhupāda: Iti proktam , it is accepted this is jñāna . Yad anyathā ajñānaṁ . Indian: What was going on just now, for a long time . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian: . . . was just meditation, without knowledge, which actually . . . Prabhupāda: This is meditation. Indian: No, which was actually speculation. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian: Meditation with knowledge, that becomes devotion. Prabhupāda: Yes, knowledge you have to receive from the person who knows. That is knowledge. Indian: If I question someone . . . Prabhupāda: If you manufacturer knowledge, that is ignorance. Indian: So if it was just meditation but without the air of knowledge . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, meditation means . . . Indian: . . . it was just speculation . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Meditation . . . Indian: . . . and we were just speculating in different directions. *Prabhupāda: . . . that is defined, that dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena (SB 12.13.1). Dhyānāva , this is meditation. So this is meditation, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). Yogī , they want to see Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ (BG 18.61), Īśvara is there, so yoga means to find out that īśvaraḥ within the heart. That is real yoga . Indian: The effort was there, but they were just speculating. Prabhupāda: No, effort, any effort, if you do not follow . . . Indian: Yes . . . Prabhupāda: . . . the instruction of higher authority, this is useless effort. Simply waste of time. You cannot become by your own effort a medical man. That is not possible. You have to go to the medical college, you have to learn under the medical man—then you become a medical man. Otherwise, if you sit down at home and meditate on medical science, what you will get? You will simply waste your time. First of all know what is jñānam . The first jñāna is amānitvam . What is the meaning is there? Devotee: Humility. Prabhupāda: Humility. The first requisition is humility that, "I have no knowledge; I have to go to somebody who has knowledge." This is humility. And if you think, "I have got very advanced knowledge. Why shall I go to anyone?" there is no entrance in knowledge. He is finished in the beginning. " amānitvam adambhitvam ahimsa shanti aarjavam " everything is there. This is gyanam , etad gyanam proktam agyanam yad anyatha . And as soon as we debate these fools think we are in agyanam , foolish. So while gyanam is there, shy we should become agyanam . Prabhupāda: Yes, ārati . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Aarti chal rahi hai mandir me, sab aaiyega. ( Arati is going on in the temple, everyone should come.) Devotee: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Devotees: (offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Yes, also. (break) Everyone should become a preacher. Devotee: Sometime we should go to Bihar also? Prabhupāda: Why not? Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (Caitanya Bhāgavata). (aside) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (Conversation & TV Interview with Mike Barron) Prabhupāda: But still, he did it. Arjuna, in the beginning, thought that he should not kill. Come on. Devotee (1): He's ready downstairs. Prabhupāda: Huh? (break) . . . can you think about the living pulse which is beating, the heart, heart failure? Why don't you bring it into palpitation again? If you study that air . . . air . . . air you bring artificially. Push it. Why don't you do it if you are so great scientist? Is it very difficult? So in anything, air is fi . . . just like in the tire tube. Air is finished. Push it, air, it is all right. So do you think it is air, the palpitation? You are so foolish? And passing as a scientist? Air can be replaced. It is difficult? Just like tire tube air, a huge quantity to work. You immediately, within a second . . . so why do you say: "Now, now the breathing is stopped"? Breathing is stopped, air stopped. What is their answer? Hmm? Gurukṛpā: They have no answer. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The cells have died. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The cells have died. Prabhupāda: Seller? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tiny cells in the body have died. Prabhupāda: Then don't say that, "Breathing is stopped. Therefore he is dead." Don't talk nonsense. Why do you talk like that, "Now breathing is stopped. He's dead"? Talk in right language if you are scientist. Why you are talking like that, "The air is stopped. The breathing is stopped. Therefore dead"? That's not a fact. So you are stating which is not a fact. Why you claim that you are scientist? That is the challenge. Hmm? Then again you come to the blood. What is blood? Red water. So if you say that this, that, so many jugglery of words, so manufacture. Water mix with the red color and give these, these so many rascal things. Gurukṛpā: They don't have artificial blood. I don't think they can make artificial blood. Prabhupāda: Nothing. Artificial blood . . . superficially it is red water. So if red water is the life, then why you are spoiling so much blood? Keep it scientifically and push it into the dead body. I say it is, that way, it is the red water, nothing but red water. Urine is white water. I am coming to the five elements—air, water. Then what is this bone? Earth. You can manufacture bone, hard bone, with earth or wood or something plastic. So we are analyzing the combination of the body, so everything you can manufacture. But where is the life you can manufacture? Why do you say? That is our challenge. All the ingredients of the body you can manufacture exactly like that. Ultimately you can give the beauty also of the woman or the man. But where is life? Bring life by all these things. Then I will say that you are scientist. Otherwise cheater, simply bluffing people. This thing should be stopped. Where you get the information that this, from matter life is possible. "In future." But in future . . . in inceptive condition you show something. Just like formerly they were flying balloons. So because they were flying, they could say that "Future we shall fly a big city." And in the history we can see that that is not impossible, because in the inceptive condition or initiative condition we see that big things can be flown. But here you cannot even prepare a ant. You have not been able to prepare even a small ant, germ. Show me. So why do you say: "In future I shall do it"? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of these creature don't even have hearts. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of the insects don't even have hearts. Prabhupāda: And how do you say? They have everything. You have no intelligence to understand. Everything, all anatomic physiology is there, even the small full stop, you cannot see even, microbe. That is God's creation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mean to say . . . Prabhupāda: I have seen very minute, walking very . . . exactly like a big . . . Gurukṛpā: In Vṛndāvana, when we were staying at Bon's place, there was big colony of ants. Ants, thousands of them. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got all the sense, all the sympathy. For eating, sleeping, mating, they have got all intelligence. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What I mean to say is, physiologically speaking, at least from biological viewpoint, some of these creatures don't even have hearts. They're much easier to manufacture, the parts of their bodies. *Prabhupāda: You say there is no heart just like you say no soul. That is your version. I say that when he is doing everything like a human being, he has got everything. It is your insufficient knowledge that you say that . . . just like you say there is no soul. But that is your insufficient knowledge. That's not the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna ( BG 18.61). When Īśvara is in everyone's heart, how you can . . . hṛd-deśe. How you say there is no heart? That is nonsense, another nonsense. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So this is speaking of the material heart. Prabhupāda: Material, spiritual, you do not know anything. You don't talk. Better you become silent. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe , specifically said: "Within the heart." The . . . even a germlike, what is called, atom, less than atom, there is heart. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says hṛd-deśe ? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe . Every living entity. Prabhupāda: Eh? And you say there is no . . . you are our student. You are saying there is no heart. That means you do not carefully read. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, that's there, but is that the heart of the soul or the heart of the gross material body? Prabhupāda: Then . . . heart there is, as you have got heart. What you are? The same constitution. Hari-śauri: In the Kaṭha Upaniṣad it describes how they're sitting side by side. Prabhupāda: The same constitution of the body. Otherwise there is no question of heart. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You've just challenged the whole field of biology also. *Prabhupāda: Then what is the . . . I say they're nonsense, rascals. They say that there is no . . . and what is their knowledge? We don't give any value to their knowledge. Kṛṣṇa says clearly, hṛd*-deśe 'rjuna. And this body is just like a yantra , machine. So as machine means . . . moving machine means it must have wheel, it must have sitting place . . . everything is there, machine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would mean that even the plants and trees also have a heart. Prabhupāda: Everything. That is proved scientifically. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved. There is a part. What is that? Spi . . .? Begins the word, the machine, the record? Devotee (2): Spirograph. Prabhupāda: Yes, the word begins with s. Spirograph or like that. You do not know? They smear with black, what is called, carbon, and the fine . . . Devotee (2): Cardiograph. Prabhupāda: Cardiograph, like that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cardiograph. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sensation. Prabhupāda: No, no, the machine is called some special name. Hari-śauri: The same idea as cardiograph. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Spectograph? Prabhupāda: Spectograph, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Has to do with light? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it records how it is moving, how it is going up and down. So that has been proved. The machine is hanged in the tree, and the tree is cut, and immediately makes a mark. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has discovered the machine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Generally at least, though, we associate the heart with an organ that simply pumps blood and oxygen throughout the body, but the biologists contend that certain bodies and certain species of life, they have no such circulatory system of pumping blood or even oxygen. Prabhupāda: Why not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, that's the contention at present. Prabhupāda: Hmm. But we can take that . . . Gurukṛpā: Like a worm. If you cut a worm in half, both parts of the worm will go on living. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurukṛpā: You take one worm, you cut it, and both parts will go on living. You cut it in three places, and it will all live. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the wrong there? Gurukṛpā: Then there's three hearts? Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately manufactured as soon as the living entity enters. Their chemical composition is that, that even you cut, a living entity can enter. The living entity enters through the semina of the father in the womb of the mother, the same process. Unless the living entity enters, the body does not form. It is matter only. When the living entity enters, then the formation takes place according to his mind. What do they know about it? Hmm? Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). The matter simply is set up according to the desire. Just like we have constructed this big house according to my desire. The matter has not taken shape like this big house automatically. I am the proprietor. I desire, 'Let the rooms be like this'. Similarly, the material elements, the semina of the father and the ova of the mother mix, it creates a suitable, what is called, cement, and now according to the desire of the living being he'll settle. Not that the cement automatically becomes a room or pipe or this or that. Cement is cement, the same thing—earth, water, air, fire. By mixture it becomes so convenient that it takes a shape and becomes a different body—a different body for the man, a different body for the animal . . . (guest enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you. A little crooked. (laughter) Thank you. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Mike Barron. He is from one of the television stations here, and he wants to do an interview on you for the news tonight, which is seen by many, many thousands of people here in Melbourne. Prabhupāda: You have seen this news? Mike Barron: Yes, I've seen this morning's. Fairly similar, just to talk about the movement. Are you happy with the way it's going here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mike Barron: Just along those lines. Gurukṛpā: What do you think of that article? Mike Barron: A bit facetious. A bit facetious. I didn't like it very much. Prabhupāda: You liked? Mike Barron: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Mike Barron: Er, a bit facetious. They had a funny way of doing it. Prabhupāda: Funny way, but it is very serious. It requires little intelligence . . . Devotee (3): Like to sit there? Prabhupāda: . . . that this body is a lump of matter, and the consciousness, or the living pulse, that is different. Can you prove that they are not? Eh? Mike Barron: No. Prabhupāda: Then how do you say it is joking? Mike Barron: Er, no, I . . . the actual context. Prabhupāda: The context is that if you cannot separate the living force, or the soul, from the body, then you are on the same position as the dog is thinking, "I am the body. I am a big dog. I can bark very loudly." And he's showing his capacity. And if we are talking big, big assembly, and in the same conception of life, that "I am this body," then where is difference? Mike Barron: I cannot argue against that. Prabhupāda: That is the point. That is the point. We have to understand this point. If we want to become more than the dog, you must find out in which sense we are more than the dog. That sense is understanding . . . that is . . . in Sanskrit word it is said, ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman. I am not this matter." That is knowledge. Actually knowledge begins from that point, that, "I am not this body." Just like a big 747 plane is running on, but there is the intelligent pilot. If somebody says: "There is no pilot. It is flying automatically. The machine is supported," is it a correct? Mike Barron: No. Does Kṛṣṇa consciousness make you aware of this, though? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one understands that this big machine is useless without the pilot. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Mike Barron: How long . . . it's hard to say. How long does it take, though . . . Prabhupāda: It takes immediately, provided a man is intelligent. Just like the same principle: If a man is intelligent, he can immediately understand that the machine is not important, the pilot is important. Mike Barron: The same with the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you take this body as everything, then analyze part by part. Just I was talking about breathing. People generally say: "The breathing is stopped; therefore the man is dead." And that can be replaced, breathing. Breathing? What is this breathing? It is simply air. Just like in tire tube, when the air is lost, you can immediately replace it and take it into work. Similarly, if breathing is lost, therefore the man is . . . you can replace it. You are big, big scientist. You replace it. Just find out some machine which will "hans! phans!" just like bellows. That is not possible. Mike Barron: Can you become aware of this without Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Can you, without . . . Prabhupāda: No. That awareness means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We can describe it in different language, but the real thing is that we must be aware of this thing. Mike Barron: So your teachings go much further than just being part of the Kṛṣṇa movement. Everyone, whether they like it or not, are indirectly concerned with it. Prabhupāda: The . . . our movement is an educative movement to understand the real position of living condition, and then we act. Just like if you know your real position, and if you act intelligently, then it is nice. If you do not know what is your position, what is the use of your education and acting? You do not know your real position, that is ignorance. And that is dog mentality. The dog cannot understand that he is not body, he is something else. But human intelligence is advanced. If they do not try to understand this fact, then what is the difference between him and dog? Mike Barron: None. Prabhupāda: That is being misused. There is no institution, no university, no education system to understand what is that living force without which it is a lump of matter. Where is that education? Mike Barron: What do you call that force? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mike Barron: What do you call the force? Prabhupāda: That is the soul, or consciousness. The same thing: the pilot. The pilot may be a small man, and the airship may be very gigantic. You can make still more. But the pilot is the same. So the body may be elephant or a small ant, but the pilot is the same. That is real understanding. Mike Barron: Just getting off that, can I ask why you've come to Australia again? Is it . . . Prabhupāda: I have already explained, that this is my mission, to educate people to understand himself. They are under this misconception that, "Every one of us, we are this body." That is misconception. You must know who is within the body. That is real education. Mike Barron: And how long will . . . you'll continue this until . . . Prabhupāda: Well . . . Mike Barron: . . . until you die. *Prabhupāda: The knowledge is already there in the Vedic literature, but there was no discussion, at least in the Western countries. So I am trying to . . . we have got so many books, eighty*-four books, writing on this science. (aside) Show him our books. They are being accepted by high learned circles. (break) . . . written not jokingly. It is a great science. Mike Barron: Where do you . . . you might think this unusual. Where does it come from, though? Prabhupāda: The *Vedas* , Vedic literature. Mike Barron: What goes into this? *Prabhupāda: Vedas . Vedic literature: Sāma, Yajur, Ṛg, Atharva, Upaniṣad , then Bhāgavata , Bhagavad*-gītā , so many. There is no cultivation of this knowledge. Devotee (3): If we could . . . if we put the stool up here, and then you can sit on facing that way, Mike? Mike Barron: Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'll do it. Prabhupāda: How people are advanced? They should take very seriously. Devotee (3): So he can sit and face that way. Gurukṛpā: Maybe you can take one picture of our books when you go. Mike Barron: Yes, well, due to problems that do occur from time to time, we . . . you know, what people consider to be the false guru . Is that all right with you? Prabhupāda: Yes, any . . . guru means the teacher. So if the teacher does not give you real knowledge, then he is not teacher, he is cheater. Mike Barron: And there are some around. *Prabhupāda: Almost everyone, because they do not know what is the subject matter of teaching. The subject matter of teaching is beginning with this understanding, that life is different from matter. That is the beginning, A*-B-C-D. So if your basic knowledge is wrong, then what is the use of going further? It is all false knowledge. Mike Barron: So there are a lot of these people who do that, false knowledge? Prabhupāda: That is . . . that you have to consider, that it is a fact. And the yoga system is meant . . . this is the real yoga system, that because we are on the false understanding, identifying with the body, so the bodily function should be controlled, and concentration or focus should be placed, "What is that living condition?" That is yoga , or meditation, to find out what is the real . . . analyze this body and find out where is the living pulse. And that is real yoga system: to control the senses. The senses are working. Now we are getting knowledge through the senses. How to get this knowledge of the living force? That, a mechanical arrangement, that is called yoga system. Cameraman: Somebody move up. *Mike Barron: Yes. (aside to cameraman) Do you have a two*-shot, or do you want to get that afterwards? Cameraman: Yeah, I'll get to that. You're going to have to keep out my front as much as you can. Don't . . . (talks about filming) Okay, Mike. Go three from now. Mike Barron: Can you tell us a little bit about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what it does mean? Prabhupāda: Just like the living force within the body, that is the most important thing, similarly, throughout this creation, cosmic manifestation, Kṛṣṇa is the most important thing. Mike Barron: Are you happy with the way the Kṛṣṇa movement is progressing throughout the world, and particularly throughout Australia? Prabhupāda: Well, we are progressing very slow because the subject matter is so difficult that even big, big scientists, big, big professors, they are puzzled. So you cannot expect. But those who are fortunate and . . . they are understanding. So this progress, we cannot expect a mass people will understand immediately, but if one person understands, he can act very tremendously to educate the people on this matter. Just like the example is that to illuminate the sky it does not require millions of stars. One moon is sufficient. Mike Barron: What is the biggest obstacle for people to overcome? Prabhupāda: Their dullness. They are not being educated, but they are putting into the darkness of ignorance more and more. That is going on in the name of education. Mike Barron: But some people are confused by the number of false gurus . Prabhupāda: So why you bring guru ? You try to understand yourself. If you are fool, then what guru will do? Mike Barron: But there are people . . . Prabhupāda: You should be intelligent. You should know that what is the subject matter of knowledge. Why do you accept so many fools and rascals as guru ? First of all you know what is the subject matter of knowledge. Just like if you want to become a carpenter, you should go to an expert carpenter. If you want to be a medical man, here, if you want to become medical man, you must approach the medical college. So first of all, what do you want? You do not know what you want. Therefore you get so many cheaters. You do not know what you want. Mike Barron: You do agree that there are many people who do try and cheat? Prabhupāda: No, first of all you agree that there is someone who cheats. First of all you agree that you do not know what is the aim of your life. Do you agree or not? Mike Barron: I think I know. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mike Barron: I think I know. Prabhupāda: You know? What is the aim? Tell me. What is the aim of human life? Tell me. We shall accept you as guru . Tell me. What is the aim of life? Mike Barron: To be happy in myself. Prabhupāda: That, how dog is happy? Therefore I have said, "Dog mentality." You do not know what is happiness. You know simply by barking you'll be happy. That's all. Mike Barron: Well, how do I find out? Prabhupāda: No, what is happiness? Do you know what is happiness? Mike Barron: Perhaps not. How do I find out that? Prabhupāda: Find out . . . but then why you are asking about guru ? You do not know what is happiness. Mike Barron: Can you tell me? Prabhupāda: Yes. Your happiness is that you do not like to die, you die. That is your distress. You do not like to become old man; *you become old. So that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . This is unhappiness. *Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). That is intelligence that, "I do not want death. Why death comes upon me? Where is my happiness?" This knowledge will lead you to understand what is happiness. But if you remain ignorant like animal, you do not know what is happiness, and if you think, "The dog is having sex; I'll have sex. That is happiness," then where is the difference, dog mentality and your mentality? Mike Barron: And Kṛṣṇa consciousness can help me attain this? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He knows, "This dog's mentality of eating, sleeping, sex and defense is not my happiness. My real distress is that I do not want to die, I am being forced to die. So how to escape from this position?" That is happiness. Mike Barron: Thank you. Gurukṛpā: Jaya Prabhupāda. Mike Barron: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Devotee (3): . . . which is a topic on which they interview many personalities like yourself. And this is showing at seven o'clock tonight on television. There'll be many, many people watching it. Prabhupāda: Take that book. Take his book. No, I . . . (tape of Prabhupāda plays in background) (laughter) Mike Barron: I'll think about that. Prabhupāda: That is the lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (background talking as people move about) (break) Sixty, seventy, and another, small books. Sixty books like this. Hari-śauri: She's asking how many do we sell. Prabhupāda: Sell? That I have given, estimate. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With our standing orders we sell them all. Carol Jarvis: Oh, no, I mean, how many would you sell a day? For instance, how many of each book would you sell a day? Would it be thousands a day? Gurukṛpā: Yeah, maybe. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, sometimes tens of thousands. Prabhupāda: Twenty thousand dollar daily. Gurukṛpā: Minimum. Prabhupāda: Minimum. Sometimes we go to fifty thousand dollars. Carol Jarvis: A day? Prabhupāda: Day. All over the world. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Devotees are working very hard to spread this consciousness, knowledge. (background talking) Prabhupāda: Religious book, selling daily so much, huge amount, that is unique in the history. Carol Jarvis: Are they sold mainly in the Western countries? Prabhupāda: All over the world, especially in Europe, America. Carol Jarvis: In Europe. Hari-śauri: We even had some book orders just recently from Russia. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are also inquiring. Gurukṛpā: Every university in America takes complete book. Every book Śrīla Prabhupāda writes, there is standing order—Oxford, Princeton, Harvard, UCLA, University of California . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of the leading professors also have written very favorable reviews, citing these . . . Prabhupāda: Where is that book, Professor Judah's book? Hare Krishna and Counterculture . (background talking) Carol Jarvis: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: You have read that? Carol Jarvis: No, I haven't. Prabhupāda: Oh, he has written big book, Professor Judah. He has very much appreciated. And he has given statistics and everything, very scholarly book. Hare Krishna and Counterculture . Carol Jarvis: Ah, yes. Yes, I have read it. (background conversation among cameramen; machine makes whirring sound) Prabhupāda: It is breathing? (laughter) (more background conversation, machines whirring, etc.) Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, what prompted you to start the Kṛṣṇa movement? Prabhupāda: Well, the scientists make research. One does wrong thing to do that. So our process is to carry out the order of the higher authorities. So my Guru Mahārāja, my spiritual master, asked me to do this. Therefore . . . Carol Jarvis: But you led a rather normal life—before this you were married; you were a businessman. Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: What made you change suddenly? Prabhupāda: By this association. Just like we are holding meeting, and so many boys, girls, they come. If somebody is capturing the idea, he makes further progress. Carol Jarvis: What was it that was different about your way of thinking? Prabhupāda: It is not my way of thinking. It is nobody's way of thinking; it is the natural way of life. Just like you eat. It is not a way of thinking; it is natural demand of the body. Carol Jarvis: Well, why is it, can I ask, perhaps, that the Kṛṣṇa movement is the natural way of living against, say, other religions, other faiths? Prabhupāda: It is not the question of religion or faith. It is the necessity. This already I have said, that you are hungry, and you require some food. It is not a way of thinking that, "I am hungry. I require . . ." It is the urge. You are hungry, and you require to eat. Similarly, people are making so many arrangements to become happy. So this is also another way, but this is the right way. Carol Jarvis: You have now thousands and thousands of devotees all around the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: A lot of them are very young people coming into the movement. Do you think they really understand what they're going into when they join the Kṛṣṇa movement? Prabhupāda: So if, if . . . at least they understand something about it. Otherwise how they are sticking to this movement? They are intelligent boy. They are coming from respectable family, educated. Why they should go after me unless they have got something? That you can ask them. There are so many. All of them are young men. Carol Jarvis: They're forced to lead a very spartan way of life, though, aren't they? Why is this necessary? Prabhupāda: If you want real happiness . . . that I have already explained. Real happiness—to become free from the natural material laws, birth, death, old age and disease. This is real happiness. Suppose you are arranging for your happiness, and all of a sudden death comes. Then where is happiness? So how you can check? So the real impediment of our happiness is stated: birth, death, old age and disease. So if you want real happiness, then you have to first of all make arrangement that you'll not die or you'll not take birth, you'll not become old, you'll not be diseased. Just like insurance. They make insurance of life. So where is your insurance for these things? You do not want to die, but you are forced to die. Where is insurance? This is insurance, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Carol Jarvis: It's an insurance for what? An after . . . Prabhupāda: No more . . . no more death, no more birth, no more old age, no more disease. This is insurance. And therefore it is the primary necessity for becoming happy. Otherwise you have made arrangement very nicely, and if all of a sudden you die, then where is your happiness? Carol Jarvis: Do you think the type of life that your devotees must lead . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: . . . is in fact a happy one—getting up very early in the morning . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it is. It is. Just like if you are suffering from some ailments, so you have to follow some rules and regulation so that you may be cured. Do the doctor not prescribe so many things that, "You don't eat like this. You don't do this. You do this"? There are so many don'ts and do's. So if you really want to become happy, you have to follow some don't's and do's. Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, can I ask you how old you are now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: How old? Prabhupāda: I am eighty years old. *Carol Jarvis: And do you think the Kṛṣṇa movement has helped you? Are you a fit man for an eighty*-year-old? Prabhupāda: At least all my contemporaries have gone away. (laughter) All my young friends and childhood friends, there are no more existing, my relatives. And . . . so I am moving still all over the world. Carol Jarvis: Can you see an age that you could live until? Could you predict how long you might live? Prabhupāda: No, if . . . you see, this body is so made that it must end, but before ending, you must be competently Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then, next life, you become permanent in life, in knowledge, in blissfulness. That is required. Carol Jarvis: Many people find it very difficult to reconcile the spiritual way of life in the Kṛṣṇa movement with the great financial resources the movement also has. Why do you need any great financial . . .? Prabhupāda: It doesn't . . . the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement does not depend on any material condition, any material condition. Carol Jarvis: But you make a lot of money out of the sales of your books, etcetera. There is begging in the streets each day. Prabhupāda: Yes. But there are many beggars; they do not get money. We get money. We are not beggars—we are giving books, knowledge. Do you think we are beggars? Carol Jarvis: If I could use the example, perhaps, of your temple, which has a lot of very rich material things in it. I wonder what significance that plays in your spiritual life. Prabhupāda: So what do you mean by spiritual and material? Do you know the distinction? Then I'll show you spiritual. And do you know? Carol Jarvis: Well, the material . . . Prabhupāda: I say that in the temple there is nothing material, all spiritual. But you have no eyes to see to it with. Carol Jarvis: I wonder if you could lead an equal sort of life without the richness of the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do. You can live at your home like us. We are giving the example. You can live also like that. That is spiritual life. If you follow the same rules and regulation and live like that, that is spiritual life. Carol Jarvis: You told me earlier that you make thousands of dollars a day . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: . . . out of the sales of your books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: If you want your thoughts to be passed on to other people, why do you sell the books and make money out of them? Prabhupāda: Otherwise you'll not read it. If I give you free, then you'll think, "Ah, this is something nonsense. They are giving free." Carol Jarvis: Not necessarily give them free, but perhaps sell them for a price that pays for the cost of producing them. Prabhupāda: So when they pay for it . . . when they pay for it, they will try to see, "What these books are saying? Let me see." And if you get free, then you may keep it in your rack for hundreds of years. So that is not the . . . but after all, we have to print these books, so who will pay for that? We have no money. Carol Jarvis: Well, what happens to the rest of the money, though, that is collected in the streets? Prabhupāda: We are increasing our movement. We are opening centers. We are printing more books. This is my books. I have made a Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. That is my will, and I have given my will that fifty percent of the collection should be spent for reprinting the books and fifty percent should be spent for spreading the movement. So there is no question of material profit. Carol Jarvis: I wonder if I could ask you just finally, then, if you have a message for the Australian people. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the message: That people are under the impression that one is this body, but that is not the fact. The soul, or the man, he is within the body. Just like you are not your . . . this shirt and coat. You are within the shirt and coat. Similarly, the living entity, the living being, is within this body, the gross body and the subtle body. The subtle body is composed of mind, intelligence and ego, and the gross body is a composition of these material things—earth, water, air, fire, like that, five elements. Altogether, eight elements. This is inferior energy. And the superior energy is within these eight elements—five gross and three subtle. So we have to study about that thing. Just like I asked that boy that "You can manufacture a huge machine, flying in the sky, 747, but why don't you manufacture the pilot?" Carol Jarvis: Thank you. (background conversation about filming, recording) Prabhupāda: So that is intelligence, that if in spite of your manufacturing such a huge machine, without the help of a pilot you cannot fly it. Carol Jarvis: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: So why don't you manufacture pilot? Carol Jarvis: Probably someday they may. Prabhupāda: That is your nonsense. That is nonsense. Carol Jarvis: At the moment we're just taking some photographs. *Prabhupāda: No, at the . . . you talk at the moment, sir. You don't give me post*-dated check that, "In future I shall be millionaire. Now you take a check of million or . . ." Shall I accept it? Carol Jarvis: No, at the moment we're just taking some photographs. We can't let you talk at the moment. You're supposedly listening to my questions. So . . . Prabhupāda: All right. Carol Jarvis: . . . for the moment I'll pretend to be asking you some questions for the purposes of cutting the interview. Prabhupāda: No, you note down that we are asking that you are so expert in manufacturing big, big machine. Why not manufacture a pilot? That is my question. Carol Jarvis: And as I said, they probably will some day. Prabhupāda: That "probably" again. (laughs) That is not possible. Carol Jarvis: Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not know. That is I say. Therefore I say you cannot do it. You do not know it. Carol Jarvis: But then why should you know it more than I should? Prabhupāda: You cannot manufacture even a small germ, what to speak of pilot. That is the problem. The modern education is they do not know it. Carol Jarvis: Perhaps they could build something . . . Prabhupāda: "Perhaps," "maybe," this is not scientific proposal. Gurukṛpā: Perhaps they can keep you young. Carol Jarvis: That's just what I was going to say. Perhaps they can build something without giving him . . . Prabhupāda: Who is . . . who is . . . Carol Jarvis: . . . giving him a mind, a free mind. Prabhupāda: So suppose if you say: "Perhaps I'll be able to keep my young age continually," is it possible? Carol Jarvis: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Then? You don't know. Then learn it. It is not possible. You must become an old lady. (laughter) Carol Jarvis: How do you know? Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. You know also. You are denying only. You know that you shall become . . . Carol Jarvis: No, but I don't know anything. I'm prepared not to know anything. I'm prepared to wait and see . . . Prabhupāda: Then you can know from the experience that every . . . your grandmother was young lady some years ago. Now she's old man . . . old woman. Carol Jarvis: Yes. Prabhupāda: How do you know? Carol Jarvis: But, you know, you could use that argument and say: "Yes, but I also know that they weren't able to cure a single disease." Prabhupāda: Now, if you say that, "My grandmother has become old lady. I'll not become," that is lunacy. Carol Jarvis: No, no, no. I'm not suggesting that I'm not going to become old. I'm simply saying that I don't know . . . Prabhupāda: So therefore, therefore you cannot stop the nature's process. You are dependent. You should first of all understand that you are dependent on nature's process. That is intelligence. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi . . . (BG 3.27). If you extravagantly say that "I shall stop this nature's process," that is lunacy, craziness. It is not possible. You have to accept that you are under the stringent laws of nature. Carol Jarvis: Oh, I couldn't . . . I agree with everything that you're saying about the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. So, but therefore how you can make a plan of happiness? Nature is baffling your plan. That you have to understand, "Why nature is baffling me?" That is real knowledge. Carol Jarvis: So your answer . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: . . . is to work with nature. Prabhupāda: We can do that. We can do that, that . . . You cannot combat with the nature's law, but Kṛṣṇa says that if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can do that. You can stop nature's law acting upon you. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Carol Jarvis: Why . . . why would you want to stop nature's law acting in its natural way? Prabhupāda: Because I don't want to be old man, but I am being forced. Therefore I want to stop this force of the nature. That is my natural inclination. Carol Jarvis: But isn't it also your natural . . . isn't it natural to . . . (indistinct) . . . with nature than to try and fight it? Prabhupāda: It is struggle. Struggle means . . . struggle for existence means there is something against my will, and I want to stop it. This is called struggle for existence. And that is . . . the whole world is going on, that . . . they have started that United Nation. Why United Nation? You remain . . . but they are trying to stop war. "Let us struggle unitedly." So that is going on. You don't want war, but the war is inevitable. Even the United Nation is there, still war is going on. That is struggle. So . . . but they are not coming to the point of understanding that, "We are trying so much, so hard, to become happy, but the nature is not allowing me." This is real intelligence. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . If we remain dull—"Let the nature's law act upon me as it likes"—and we go on struggling to stop it, it will never stop, because nature's law is so powerful. You cannot stop it. Carol Jarvis: But why do you want to fight nature's law? Prabhupāda: Then you want happiness. Again I am repeatedly saying that you don't want to stop your old age. You want to remain young. Carol Jarvis: No, no, no . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone . . . Carol Jarvis: I'm saying I think I can be happy by working within nature's laws rather than trying to fight them. Prabhupāda: That you are not working. That is . . . that is your . . . that is . . . Carol Jarvis: But I'm not unhappy. Prabhupāda: That's all . . . You are not happy. Carol Jarvis: No, I'm not unhappy. I'm perfectly happy. Prabhupāda: No, that is your ignorance. Nobody is happy. That is . . . then it is the happiness of the dog. He is also thinking happy. The hog is also thinking happy. That is another illusion. The dog may be a very big dog, and he can bark very nicely, but he is not happy because he has got a master. As soon as the master, "Come here," "Yes." Chain. Carol Jarvis: But all of these people have a master. You do the same to them. You call them and they jump. Prabhupāda: No. Carol Jarvis: That's the same as a dog coming to its master. Prabhupāda: Yes. But to have a real master and to have a false master . . . Carol Jarvis: What's the difference? Prabhupāda: Just like a physician. He is asking that, "Come here. Lie down." His knife . . . you know that he'll make surgical . . . he agrees. But if somebody, rogue, says that, "I shall cut your throat," he'll not agree. That is intelligence. A physician is also with the knife, and the rogue is also with the knife. When the physician says: "You lie down. I shall have some surgical operation," he agrees to ply on his body the knife. But he'll never agree if he knows that, "He is a rogue. He'll simply cut my throat." That is the difference. But superficially you see, "Both of them are with knife," but one for real happiness, one for false thing. Carol Jarvis: I find it hard to see the difference. Prabhupāda: Yes, you find out how to go to a physician, agree to his proposal. Then you'll be cured. Otherwise you'll have to suffer with that boil, always burning, burning, burning, burning. Carol Jarvis: Thank you for your time. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them some prasāda . (break) . . . yogī . There are many animals. They are also doing . . . (background conversation as people leave) And Garuḍa also, vegetarian. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Garuḍa. *Prabhupāda: Garuḍa. But he carries the Lord Viṣṇu. That is not the point. How to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, that is really . . . to become vegetarian, nonvegetarian, that is not very important. But we are interested in Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . We are not in the group of vegetarians or nonvegetarians. We are Kṛṣṇa*-ized. We take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . That is our . . . we are servant of Kṛṣṇa, so whatever is left over by Kṛṣṇa, we take. If Kṛṣṇa eats meat, we shall take Kṛṣṇa prasādam . What can we do? Therefore we offer Kṛṣṇa whatever He wants to eat, and we take the remnants. That is our . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26), so we offer Him. If Kṛṣṇa says: "Māṁsa, eggs, give Me," then we shall offer Him and take. Guest: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Carol Jarvis: Thank you very much. Bye bye. (guests leave) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They all take that this is some kind of a materialistic business, selling books and collecting money, and we purchase a beautiful temple . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that we are not material; it is all spiritual. That they do not know. Where is material? If everything is prepared and everything there is Kṛṣṇa, then where is material? When it is misused, other than Kṛṣṇa, then it is material. Now, just like the university department and the criminal department. Where is the difference superficially? That's a building, that's a building. There are officer; there are officer. There are rooms; there are rooms. Why it is called criminal, prison house? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The activities inside. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is the activity which concerns. In the university there is only activity of education, learning. And here, all the criminals are violating the laws, they are put together. But superficially they look the same room, same food, same office, same typewriter. So it is the question of understanding why it is called criminal department and why it is called university. So as soon as it is university department, that is good. The same building, the same Dictaphone, the same typewriter, same table, same chair, when they are used for Kṛṣṇa it is spiritual. The same money, everything, it looks like that. Therefore they cannot understand. The nirviśeṣavādī and the śūnyavādī , they, "Spiritual means these things should be zero." They say it should be zero. "No table, no chair, no house, no, no, no, no . . ." But that is (laughs) ignorance. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256). The things which are usable by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if we give up them, prapañcikā , as material, that is foolishness. That they do not know. They have yet to learn. It is Rūpa Gosvāmī's injunction. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ, mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgaḥ. Parityāga means giving up: "Oh, it is material." So we are not such fools, śūnyavādī and nirviśeṣavādī . We are not such fools. *Arjuna, he thought that not killing is better than killing, but Kṛṣṇa convinced him, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Therefore he, after reading Bhagavad*-gītā , he took it, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Generally people understand not killing is better than killing. But Kṛṣṇa explained to Arjuna, "No, if there is My desire, then killing is better than not killing." And that is knowledge. Therefore we have to carry out simply Kṛṣṇa's order or His representative's order. Then it is all good. Either killing or not killing, it doesn't matter because it is coming directly from the Supreme. And that is spiritual. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa induced Arjuna to kill? He was presenting as very good man, that "I shall not kill." And that's . . . actually that is good. Even if your enemy excuse him, that is very good idea. But if it is not desired by Kṛṣṇa, then it is bad. So our principle is: We have to act according to the desire of Kṛṣṇa; then it is good. Otherwise, bad. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So in spite of advancement of knowledge, because they are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore they are all duṣkṛtinaḥ , all sinful men. That is the test. So it is very difficult to understand this philosophy, but this is the fact. We are not going to be followers of zero- vādīs or impersonal- vādīs . We remain completely in the varieties, but these varieties are usable only for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. You cannot stop the varieties. You have to change the quality of the varieties. Just like we are eating. It is not possible to stop eating. Why shall I stop eating? But the quality is changed. It is prasādam . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like we're getting some money for our books . . . Prabhupāda: The quality's changed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . they take that spiritual life is negation of anything that they're doing now—no more money, no more anything. Prabhupāda: For our personal comfort, we, our students are lying on the floor. They are not using the money for purchasing nice furniture. No personal comfort. But if you say that, "You are purchasing big, big car," yes, for going quickly to serve Kṛṣṇa. Our service is main point. If I can go and serve Kṛṣṇa within a minute, why shall I wait for one hour? So we take all advantages. After all, it belongs to Kṛṣṇa. They say that "We have manufactured." That's all . . . but we say that Kṛṣṇa has manufactured. So they . . . this philosophy, it is little difficult to understand by the dull men, that nothing is without Kṛṣṇa. Everything . . . īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Sarvam , when we say sarvam , how we can exclude this and that? Everything is in relationship with Kṛṣṇa, sarvam. Sarvam means everything. So how can you discriminate, "This is material; this is spiritual"? The discrimination is that when it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is material, and when it is used for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. That is the explanation of sarvam . Just like a thief has stolen my money. The money will be utilized. He'll spend it. I am spending, and he is . . . then why he's criminal? If you plea . . . if you present this plea, that "Money's for spending, so either you spend or I spend . . ." But that is not the idea, that the money . . . my money means the money should be spent for my purpose, and because you have taken the money and spending for your purpose, therefore you are criminal. That is the distinction between material and spiritual. Money, or everything, belongs to Kṛṣṇa. When it is utilized for Kṛṣṇa, this is spiritual, and when it is not utilized for Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? You cannot say that, "Yes, I have taken your money, so you are also spending, I am also spending. So why do you call me a criminal?" The answer will be: "Yes, you are not spending for me; you are spending for you. Therefore you are criminal." Is it very difficult to understand? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That last argument again? You're taking money . . .? Prabhupāda: The money belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So if you spend it for Kṛṣṇa, then it is spiritual. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And if you spend for your benefit, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8), bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasām (BG 5.29). Repeatedly says. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor. So when everything is used for the fulfillment of the will of the proprietor, that is proper use. Otherwise improper use. Just like we have given several times this example, "Keep to the right," "Keep to the left." So you are driving your car. The will is, government will is, "Keep to the right." As soon as you keep to the left, immediately you are criminal. You cannot put this argument, "What is the wrong? I am driving." "No, because you have violated my will, therefore you are . . ." the government will see. That is criminal. So everything . . . bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasā . . . He is the proprietor. He is the enjoyer. So because you have enjoyed without His permission, therefore you become criminal. You are punishable. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpam (BG 3.13). You'll see this verse. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhagavad*-gītā . *Prabhupāda: Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Devotee: It's gone, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What can I do? Gurukṛpā: "In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajña , supply all necessities to man. But he who enjoys these gifts without offering them to the demigods in return is certainly a thief." Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) (Conversation & TV Interview with Mike Barron) Prabhupāda: But still, he did it. Arjuna, in the beginning, thought that he should not kill. Come on. Devotee (1): He's ready downstairs. Prabhupāda: Huh? (break) . . . can you think about the living pulse which is beating, the heart, heart failure? Why don't you bring it into palpitation again? If you study that air . . . air . . . air you bring artificially. Push it. Why don't you do it if you are so great scientist? Is it very difficult? So in anything, air is fi . . . just like in the tire tube. Air is finished. Push it, air, it is all right. So do you think it is air, the palpitation? You are so foolish? And passing as a scientist? Air can be replaced. It is difficult? Just like tire tube air, a huge quantity to work. You immediately, within a second . . . so why do you say: "Now, now the breathing is stopped"? Breathing is stopped, air stopped. What is their answer? Hmm? Gurukṛpā: They have no answer. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The cells have died. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The cells have died. Prabhupāda: Seller? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tiny cells in the body have died. Prabhupāda: Then don't say that, "Breathing is stopped. Therefore he is dead." Don't talk nonsense. Why do you talk like that, "Now breathing is stopped. He's dead"? Talk in right language if you are scientist. Why you are talking like that, "The air is stopped. The breathing is stopped. Therefore dead"? That's not a fact. So you are stating which is not a fact. Why you claim that you are scientist? That is the challenge. Hmm? Then again you come to the blood. What is blood? Red water. So if you say that this, that, so many jugglery of words, so manufacture. Water mix with the red color and give these, these so many rascal things. Gurukṛpā: They don't have artificial blood. I don't think they can make artificial blood. Prabhupāda: Nothing. Artificial blood . . . superficially it is red water. So if red water is the life, then why you are spoiling so much blood? Keep it scientifically and push it into the dead body. I say it is, that way, it is the red water, nothing but red water. Urine is white water. I am coming to the five elements—air, water. Then what is this bone? Earth. You can manufacture bone, hard bone, with earth or wood or something plastic. So we are analyzing the combination of the body, so everything you can manufacture. But where is the life you can manufacture? Why do you say? That is our challenge. All the ingredients of the body you can manufacture exactly like that. Ultimately you can give the beauty also of the woman or the man. But where is life? Bring life by all these things. Then I will say that you are scientist. Otherwise cheater, simply bluffing people. This thing should be stopped. Where you get the information that this, from matter life is possible. "In future." But in future . . . in inceptive condition you show something. Just like formerly they were flying balloons. So because they were flying, they could say that "Future we shall fly a big city." And in the history we can see that that is not impossible, because in the inceptive condition or initiative condition we see that big things can be flown. But here you cannot even prepare a ant. You have not been able to prepare even a small ant, germ. Show me. So why do you say: "In future I shall do it"? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of these creature don't even have hearts. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of the insects don't even have hearts. Prabhupāda: And how do you say? They have everything. You have no intelligence to understand. Everything, all anatomic physiology is there, even the small full stop, you cannot see even, microbe. That is God's creation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mean to say . . . Prabhupāda: I have seen very minute, walking very . . . exactly like a big . . . Gurukṛpā: In Vṛndāvana, when we were staying at Bon's place, there was big colony of ants. Ants, thousands of them. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got all the sense, all the sympathy. For eating, sleeping, mating, they have got all intelligence. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What I mean to say is, physiologically speaking, at least from biological viewpoint, some of these creatures don't even have hearts. They're much easier to manufacture, the parts of their bodies. *Prabhupāda: You say there is no heart just like you say no soul. That is your version. I say that when he is doing everything like a human being, he has got everything. It is your insufficient knowledge that you say that . . . just like you say there is no soul. But that is your insufficient knowledge. That's not the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna ( BG 18.61). When Īśvara is in everyone's heart, how you can . . . hṛd-deśe. How you say there is no heart? That is nonsense, another nonsense. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So this is speaking of the material heart. Prabhupāda: Material, spiritual, you do not know anything. You don't talk. Better you become silent. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe , specifically said: "Within the heart." The . . . even a germlike, what is called, atom, less than atom, there is heart. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says hṛd-deśe ? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe . Every living entity. Prabhupāda: Eh? And you say there is no . . . you are our student. You are saying there is no heart. That means you do not carefully read. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, that's there, but is that the heart of the soul or the heart of the gross material body? Prabhupāda: Then . . . heart there is, as you have got heart. What you are? The same constitution. Hari-śauri: In the Kaṭha Upaniṣad it describes how they're sitting side by side. Prabhupāda: The same constitution of the body. Otherwise there is no question of heart. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You've just challenged the whole field of biology also. *Prabhupāda: Then what is the . . . I say they're nonsense, rascals. They say that there is no . . . and what is their knowledge? We don't give any value to their knowledge. Kṛṣṇa says clearly, hṛd*-deśe 'rjuna. And this body is just like a yantra , machine. So as machine means . . . moving machine means it must have wheel, it must have sitting place . . . everything is there, machine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would mean that even the plants and trees also have a heart. Prabhupāda: Everything. That is proved scientifically. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved. There is a part. What is that? Spi . . .? Begins the word, the machine, the record? Devotee (2): Spirograph. Prabhupāda: Yes, the word begins with s. Spirograph or like that. You do not know? They smear with black, what is called, carbon, and the fine . . . Devotee (2): Cardiograph. Prabhupāda: Cardiograph, like that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cardiograph. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sensation. Prabhupāda: No, no, the machine is called some special name. Hari-śauri: The same idea as cardiograph. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Spectograph? Prabhupāda: Spectograph, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Has to do with light? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it records how it is moving, how it is going up and down. So that has been proved. The machine is hanged in the tree, and the tree is cut, and immediately makes a mark. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has discovered the machine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Generally at least, though, we associate the heart with an organ that simply pumps blood and oxygen throughout the body, but the biologists contend that certain bodies and certain species of life, they have no such circulatory system of pumping blood or even oxygen. Prabhupāda: Why not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, that's the contention at present. Prabhupāda: Hmm. But we can take that . . . Gurukṛpā: Like a worm. If you cut a worm in half, both parts of the worm will go on living. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurukṛpā: You take one worm, you cut it, and both parts will go on living. You cut it in three places, and it will all live. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the wrong there? Gurukṛpā: Then there's three hearts? Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately manufactured as soon as the living entity enters. Their chemical composition is that, that even you cut, a living entity can enter. The living entity enters through the semina of the father in the womb of the mother, the same process. Unless the living entity enters, the body does not form. It is matter only. When the living entity enters, then the formation takes place according to his mind. What do they know about it? Hmm? Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). The matter simply is set up according to the desire. Just like we have constructed this big house according to my desire. The matter has not taken shape like this big house automatically. I am the proprietor. I desire, 'Let the rooms be like this'. Similarly, the material elements, the semina of the father and the ova of the mother mix, it creates a suitable, what is called, cement, and now according to the desire of the living being he'll settle. Not that the cement automatically becomes a room or pipe or this or that. Cement is cement, the same thing—earth, water, air, fire. By mixture it becomes so convenient that it takes a shape and becomes a different body—a different body for the man, a different body for the animal . . . (guest enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you. A little crooked. (laughter) Thank you. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Mike Barron. He is from one of the television stations here, and he wants to do an interview on you for the news tonight, which is seen by many, many thousands of people here in Melbourne. Prabhupāda: You have seen this news? Mike Barron: Yes, I've seen this morning's. Fairly similar, just to talk about the movement. Are you happy with the way it's going here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mike Barron: Just along those lines. Gurukṛpā: What do you think of that article? Mike Barron: A bit facetious. A bit facetious. I didn't like it very much. Prabhupāda: You liked? Mike Barron: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Mike Barron: Er, a bit facetious. They had a funny way of doing it. Prabhupāda: Funny way, but it is very serious. It requires little intelligence . . . Devotee (3): Like to sit there? Prabhupāda: . . . that this body is a lump of matter, and the consciousness, or the living pulse, that is different. Can you prove that they are not? Eh? Mike Barron: No. Prabhupāda: Then how do you say it is joking? Mike Barron: Er, no, I . . . the actual context. Prabhupāda: The context is that if you cannot separate the living force, or the soul, from the body, then you are on the same position as the dog is thinking, "I am the body. I am a big dog. I can bark very loudly." And he's showing his capacity. And if we are talking big, big assembly, and in the same conception of life, that "I am this body," then where is difference? Mike Barron: I cannot argue against that. Prabhupāda: That is the point. That is the point. We have to understand this point. If we want to become more than the dog, you must find out in which sense we are more than the dog. That sense is understanding . . . that is . . . in Sanskrit word it is said, ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman. I am not this matter." That is knowledge. Actually knowledge begins from that point, that, "I am not this body." Just like a big 747 plane is running on, but there is the intelligent pilot. If somebody says: "There is no pilot. It is flying automatically. The machine is supported," is it a correct? Mike Barron: No. Does Kṛṣṇa consciousness make you aware of this, though? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one understands that this big machine is useless without the pilot. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Mike Barron: How long . . . it's hard to say. How long does it take, though . . . Prabhupāda: It takes immediately, provided a man is intelligent. Just like the same principle: If a man is intelligent, he can immediately understand that the machine is not important, the pilot is important. Mike Barron: The same with the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you take this body as everything, then analyze part by part. Just I was talking about breathing. People generally say: "The breathing is stopped; therefore the man is dead." And that can be replaced, breathing. Breathing? What is this breathing? It is simply air. Just like in tire tube, when the air is lost, you can immediately replace it and take it into work. Similarly, if breathing is lost, therefore the man is . . . you can replace it. You are big, big scientist. You replace it. Just find out some machine which will "hans! phans!" just like bellows. That is not possible. Mike Barron: Can you become aware of this without Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Can you, without . . . Prabhupāda: No. That awareness means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We can describe it in different language, but the real thing is that we must be aware of this thing. Mike Barron: So your teachings go much further than just being part of the Kṛṣṇa movement. Everyone, whether they like it or not, are indirectly concerned with it. Prabhupāda: The . . . our movement is an educative movement to understand the real position of living condition, and then we act. Just like if you know your real position, and if you act intelligently, then it is nice. If you do not know what is your position, what is the use of your education and acting? You do not know your real position, that is ignorance. And that is dog mentality. The dog cannot understand that he is not body, he is something else. But human intelligence is advanced. If they do not try to understand this fact, then what is the difference between him and dog? Mike Barron: None. Prabhupāda: That is being misused. There is no institution, no university, no education system to understand what is that living force without which it is a lump of matter. Where is that education? Mike Barron: What do you call that force? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mike Barron: What do you call the force? Prabhupāda: That is the soul, or consciousness. The same thing: the pilot. The pilot may be a small man, and the airship may be very gigantic. You can make still more. But the pilot is the same. So the body may be elephant or a small ant, but the pilot is the same. That is real understanding. Mike Barron: Just getting off that, can I ask why you've come to Australia again? Is it . . . Prabhupāda: I have already explained, that this is my mission, to educate people to understand himself. They are under this misconception that, "Every one of us, we are this body." That is misconception. You must know who is within the body. That is real education. Mike Barron: And how long will . . . you'll continue this until . . . Prabhupāda: Well . . . Mike Barron: . . . until you die. *Prabhupāda: The knowledge is already there in the Vedic literature, but there was no discussion, at least in the Western countries. So I am trying to . . . we have got so many books, eighty*-four books, writing on this science. (aside) Show him our books. They are being accepted by high learned circles. (break) . . . written not jokingly. It is a great science. Mike Barron: Where do you . . . you might think this unusual. Where does it come from, though? Prabhupāda: The *Vedas* , Vedic literature. Mike Barron: What goes into this? *Prabhupāda: Vedas . Vedic literature: Sāma, Yajur, Ṛg, Atharva, Upaniṣad , then Bhāgavata , Bhagavad*-gītā , so many. There is no cultivation of this knowledge. Devotee (3): If we could . . . if we put the stool up here, and then you can sit on facing that way, Mike? Mike Barron: Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'll do it. Prabhupāda: How people are advanced? They should take very seriously. Devotee (3): So he can sit and face that way. Gurukṛpā: Maybe you can take one picture of our books when you go. Mike Barron: Yes, well, due to problems that do occur from time to time, we . . . you know, what people consider to be the false guru . Is that all right with you? Prabhupāda: Yes, any . . . guru means the teacher. So if the teacher does not give you real knowledge, then he is not teacher, he is cheater. Mike Barron: And there are some around. *Prabhupāda: Almost everyone, because they do not know what is the subject matter of teaching. The subject matter of teaching is beginning with this understanding, that life is different from matter. That is the beginning, A*-B-C-D. So if your basic knowledge is wrong, then what is the use of going further? It is all false knowledge. Mike Barron: So there are a lot of these people who do that, false knowledge? Prabhupāda: That is . . . that you have to consider, that it is a fact. And the yoga system is meant . . . this is the real yoga system, that because we are on the false understanding, identifying with the body, so the bodily function should be controlled, and concentration or focus should be placed, "What is that living condition?" That is yoga , or meditation, to find out what is the real . . . analyze this body and find out where is the living pulse. And that is real yoga system: to control the senses. The senses are working. Now we are getting knowledge through the senses. How to get this knowledge of the living force? That, a mechanical arrangement, that is called yoga system. Cameraman: Somebody move up. *Mike Barron: Yes. (aside to cameraman) Do you have a two*-shot, or do you want to get that afterwards? Cameraman: Yeah, I'll get to that. You're going to have to keep out my front as much as you can. Don't . . . (talks about filming) Okay, Mike. Go three from now. Mike Barron: Can you tell us a little bit about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what it does mean? Prabhupāda: Just like the living force within the body, that is the most important thing, similarly, throughout this creation, cosmic manifestation, Kṛṣṇa is the most important thing. Mike Barron: Are you happy with the way the Kṛṣṇa movement is progressing throughout the world, and particularly throughout Australia? Prabhupāda: Well, we are progressing very slow because the subject matter is so difficult that even big, big scientists, big, big professors, they are puzzled. So you cannot expect. But those who are fortunate and . . . they are understanding. So this progress, we cannot expect a mass people will understand immediately, but if one person understands, he can act very tremendously to educate the people on this matter. Just like the example is that to illuminate the sky it does not require millions of stars. One moon is sufficient. Mike Barron: What is the biggest obstacle for people to overcome? Prabhupāda: Their dullness. They are not being educated, but they are putting into the darkness of ignorance more and more. That is going on in the name of education. Mike Barron: But some people are confused by the number of false gurus . Prabhupāda: So why you bring guru ? You try to understand yourself. If you are fool, then what guru will do? Mike Barron: But there are people . . . Prabhupāda: You should be intelligent. You should know that what is the subject matter of knowledge. Why do you accept so many fools and rascals as guru ? First of all you know what is the subject matter of knowledge. Just like if you want to become a carpenter, you should go to an expert carpenter. If you want to be a medical man, here, if you want to become medical man, you must approach the medical college. So first of all, what do you want? You do not know what you want. Therefore you get so many cheaters. You do not know what you want. Mike Barron: You do agree that there are many people who do try and cheat? Prabhupāda: No, first of all you agree that there is someone who cheats. First of all you agree that you do not know what is the aim of your life. Do you agree or not? Mike Barron: I think I know. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mike Barron: I think I know. Prabhupāda: You know? What is the aim? Tell me. What is the aim of human life? Tell me. We shall accept you as guru . Tell me. What is the aim of life? Mike Barron: To be happy in myself. Prabhupāda: That, how dog is happy? Therefore I have said, "Dog mentality." You do not know what is happiness. You know simply by barking you'll be happy. That's all. Mike Barron: Well, how do I find out? Prabhupāda: No, what is happiness? Do you know what is happiness? Mike Barron: Perhaps not. How do I find out that? Prabhupāda: Find out . . . but then why you are asking about guru ? You do not know what is happiness. Mike Barron: Can you tell me? Prabhupāda: Yes. Your happiness is that you do not like to die, you die. That is your distress. You do not like to become old man; *you become old. So that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . This is unhappiness. *Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). That is intelligence that, "I do not want death. Why death comes upon me? Where is my happiness?" This knowledge will lead you to understand what is happiness. But if you remain ignorant like animal, you do not know what is happiness, and if you think, "The dog is having sex; I'll have sex. That is happiness," then where is the difference, dog mentality and your mentality? Mike Barron: And Kṛṣṇa consciousness can help me attain this? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He knows, "This dog's mentality of eating, sleeping, sex and defense is not my happiness. My real distress is that I do not want to die, I am being forced to die. So how to escape from this position?" That is happiness. Mike Barron: Thank you. Gurukṛpā: Jaya Prabhupāda. Mike Barron: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Devotee (3): . . . which is a topic on which they interview many personalities like yourself. And this is showing at seven o'clock tonight on television. There'll be many, many people watching it. Prabhupāda: Take that book. Take his book. No, I . . . (tape of Prabhupāda plays in background) (laughter) Mike Barron: I'll think about that. Prabhupāda: That is the lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (background talking as people move about) (break) Sixty, seventy, and another, small books. Sixty books like this. Hari-śauri: She's asking how many do we sell. Prabhupāda: Sell? That I have given, estimate. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With our standing orders we sell them all. Carol Jarvis: Oh, no, I mean, how many would you sell a day? For instance, how many of each book would you sell a day? Would it be thousands a day? Gurukṛpā: Yeah, maybe. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, sometimes tens of thousands. Prabhupāda: Twenty thousand dollar daily. Gurukṛpā: Minimum. Prabhupāda: Minimum. Sometimes we go to fifty thousand dollars. Carol Jarvis: A day? Prabhupāda: Day. All over the world. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Devotees are working very hard to spread this consciousness, knowledge. (background talking) Prabhupāda: Religious book, selling daily so much, huge amount, that is unique in the history. Carol Jarvis: Are they sold mainly in the Western countries? Prabhupāda: All over the world, especially in Europe, America. Carol Jarvis: In Europe. Hari-śauri: We even had some book orders just recently from Russia. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are also inquiring. Gurukṛpā: Every university in America takes complete book. Every book Śrīla Prabhupāda writes, there is standing order—Oxford, Princeton, Harvard, UCLA, University of California . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of the leading professors also have written very favorable reviews, citing these . . . Prabhupāda: Where is that book, Professor Judah's book? Hare Krishna and Counterculture . (background talking) Carol Jarvis: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: You have read that? Carol Jarvis: No, I haven't. Prabhupāda: Oh, he has written big book, Professor Judah. He has very much appreciated. And he has given statistics and everything, very scholarly book. Hare Krishna and Counterculture . Carol Jarvis: Ah, yes. Yes, I have read it. (background conversation among cameramen; machine makes whirring sound) Prabhupāda: It is breathing? (laughter) (more background conversation, machines whirring, etc.) Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, what prompted you to start the Kṛṣṇa movement? Prabhupāda: Well, the scientists make research. One does wrong thing to do that. So our process is to carry out the order of the higher authorities. So my Guru Mahārāja, my spiritual master, asked me to do this. Therefore . . . Carol Jarvis: But you led a rather normal life—before this you were married; you were a businessman. Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: What made you change suddenly? Prabhupāda: By this association. Just like we are holding meeting, and so many boys, girls, they come. If somebody is capturing the idea, he makes further progress. Carol Jarvis: What was it that was different about your way of thinking? Prabhupāda: It is not my way of thinking. It is nobody's way of thinking; it is the natural way of life. Just like you eat. It is not a way of thinking; it is natural demand of the body. Carol Jarvis: Well, why is it, can I ask, perhaps, that the Kṛṣṇa movement is the natural way of living against, say, other religions, other faiths? Prabhupāda: It is not the question of religion or faith. It is the necessity. This already I have said, that you are hungry, and you require some food. It is not a way of thinking that, "I am hungry. I require . . ." It is the urge. You are hungry, and you require to eat. Similarly, people are making so many arrangements to become happy. So this is also another way, but this is the right way. Carol Jarvis: You have now thousands and thousands of devotees all around the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: A lot of them are very young people coming into the movement. Do you think they really understand what they're going into when they join the Kṛṣṇa movement? Prabhupāda: So if, if . . . at least they understand something about it. Otherwise how they are sticking to this movement? They are intelligent boy. They are coming from respectable family, educated. Why they should go after me unless they have got something? That you can ask them. There are so many. All of them are young men. Carol Jarvis: They're forced to lead a very spartan way of life, though, aren't they? Why is this necessary? Prabhupāda: If you want real happiness . . . that I have already explained. Real happiness—to become free from the natural material laws, birth, death, old age and disease. This is real happiness. Suppose you are arranging for your happiness, and all of a sudden death comes. Then where is happiness? So how you can check? So the real impediment of our happiness is stated: birth, death, old age and disease. So if you want real happiness, then you have to first of all make arrangement that you'll not die or you'll not take birth, you'll not become old, you'll not be diseased. Just like insurance. They make insurance of life. So where is your insurance for these things? You do not want to die, but you are forced to die. Where is insurance? This is insurance, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Carol Jarvis: It's an insurance for what? An after . . . Prabhupāda: No more . . . no more death, no more birth, no more old age, no more disease. This is insurance. And therefore it is the primary necessity for becoming happy. Otherwise you have made arrangement very nicely, and if all of a sudden you die, then where is your happiness? Carol Jarvis: Do you think the type of life that your devotees must lead . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: . . . is in fact a happy one—getting up very early in the morning . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it is. It is. Just like if you are suffering from some ailments, so you have to follow some rules and regulation so that you may be cured. Do the doctor not prescribe so many things that, "You don't eat like this. You don't do this. You do this"? There are so many don'ts and do's. So if you really want to become happy, you have to follow some don't's and do's. Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, can I ask you how old you are now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: How old? Prabhupāda: I am eighty years old. *Carol Jarvis: And do you think the Kṛṣṇa movement has helped you? Are you a fit man for an eighty*-year-old? Prabhupāda: At least all my contemporaries have gone away. (laughter) All my young friends and childhood friends, there are no more existing, my relatives. And . . . so I am moving still all over the world. Carol Jarvis: Can you see an age that you could live until? Could you predict how long you might live? Prabhupāda: No, if . . . you see, this body is so made that it must end, but before ending, you must be competently Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then, next life, you become permanent in life, in knowledge, in blissfulness. That is required. Carol Jarvis: Many people find it very difficult to reconcile the spiritual way of life in the Kṛṣṇa movement with the great financial resources the movement also has. Why do you need any great financial . . .? Prabhupāda: It doesn't . . . the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement does not depend on any material condition, any material condition. Carol Jarvis: But you make a lot of money out of the sales of your books, etcetera. There is begging in the streets each day. Prabhupāda: Yes. But there are many beggars; they do not get money. We get money. We are not beggars—we are giving books, knowledge. Do you think we are beggars? Carol Jarvis: If I could use the example, perhaps, of your temple, which has a lot of very rich material things in it. I wonder what significance that plays in your spiritual life. Prabhupāda: So what do you mean by spiritual and material? Do you know the distinction? Then I'll show you spiritual. And do you know? Carol Jarvis: Well, the material . . . Prabhupāda: I say that in the temple there is nothing material, all spiritual. But you have no eyes to see to it with. Carol Jarvis: I wonder if you could lead an equal sort of life without the richness of the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do. You can live at your home like us. We are giving the example. You can live also like that. That is spiritual life. If you follow the same rules and regulation and live like that, that is spiritual life. Carol Jarvis: You told me earlier that you make thousands of dollars a day . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: . . . out of the sales of your books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: If you want your thoughts to be passed on to other people, why do you sell the books and make money out of them? Prabhupāda: Otherwise you'll not read it. If I give you free, then you'll think, "Ah, this is something nonsense. They are giving free." Carol Jarvis: Not necessarily give them free, but perhaps sell them for a price that pays for the cost of producing them. Prabhupāda: So when they pay for it . . . when they pay for it, they will try to see, "What these books are saying? Let me see." And if you get free, then you may keep it in your rack for hundreds of years. So that is not the . . . but after all, we have to print these books, so who will pay for that? We have no money. Carol Jarvis: Well, what happens to the rest of the money, though, that is collected in the streets? Prabhupāda: We are increasing our movement. We are opening centers. We are printing more books. This is my books. I have made a Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. That is my will, and I have given my will that fifty percent of the collection should be spent for reprinting the books and fifty percent should be spent for spreading the movement. So there is no question of material profit. Carol Jarvis: I wonder if I could ask you just finally, then, if you have a message for the Australian people. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the message: That people are under the impression that one is this body, but that is not the fact. The soul, or the man, he is within the body. Just like you are not your . . . this shirt and coat. You are within the shirt and coat. Similarly, the living entity, the living being, is within this body, the gross body and the subtle body. The subtle body is composed of mind, intelligence and ego, and the gross body is a composition of these material things—earth, water, air, fire, like that, five elements. Altogether, eight elements. This is inferior energy. And the superior energy is within these eight elements—five gross and three subtle. So we have to study about that thing. Just like I asked that boy that "You can manufacture a huge machine, flying in the sky, 747, but why don't you manufacture the pilot?" Carol Jarvis: Thank you. (background conversation about filming, recording) Prabhupāda: So that is intelligence, that if in spite of your manufacturing such a huge machine, without the help of a pilot you cannot fly it. Carol Jarvis: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: So why don't you manufacture pilot? Carol Jarvis: Probably someday they may. Prabhupāda: That is your nonsense. That is nonsense. Carol Jarvis: At the moment we're just taking some photographs. *Prabhupāda: No, at the . . . you talk at the moment, sir. You don't give me post*-dated check that, "In future I shall be millionaire. Now you take a check of million or . . ." Shall I accept it? Carol Jarvis: No, at the moment we're just taking some photographs. We can't let you talk at the moment. You're supposedly listening to my questions. So . . . Prabhupāda: All right. Carol Jarvis: . . . for the moment I'll pretend to be asking you some questions for the purposes of cutting the interview. Prabhupāda: No, you note down that we are asking that you are so expert in manufacturing big, big machine. Why not manufacture a pilot? That is my question. Carol Jarvis: And as I said, they probably will some day. Prabhupāda: That "probably" again. (laughs) That is not possible. Carol Jarvis: Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not know. That is I say. Therefore I say you cannot do it. You do not know it. Carol Jarvis: But then why should you know it more than I should? Prabhupāda: You cannot manufacture even a small germ, what to speak of pilot. That is the problem. The modern education is they do not know it. Carol Jarvis: Perhaps they could build something . . . Prabhupāda: "Perhaps," "maybe," this is not scientific proposal. Gurukṛpā: Perhaps they can keep you young. Carol Jarvis: That's just what I was going to say. Perhaps they can build something without giving him . . . Prabhupāda: Who is . . . who is . . . Carol Jarvis: . . . giving him a mind, a free mind. Prabhupāda: So suppose if you say: "Perhaps I'll be able to keep my young age continually," is it possible? Carol Jarvis: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Then? You don't know. Then learn it. It is not possible. You must become an old lady. (laughter) Carol Jarvis: How do you know? Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. You know also. You are denying only. You know that you shall become . . . Carol Jarvis: No, but I don't know anything. I'm prepared not to know anything. I'm prepared to wait and see . . . Prabhupāda: Then you can know from the experience that every . . . your grandmother was young lady some years ago. Now she's old man . . . old woman. Carol Jarvis: Yes. Prabhupāda: How do you know? Carol Jarvis: But, you know, you could use that argument and say: "Yes, but I also know that they weren't able to cure a single disease." Prabhupāda: Now, if you say that, "My grandmother has become old lady. I'll not become," that is lunacy. Carol Jarvis: No, no, no. I'm not suggesting that I'm not going to become old. I'm simply saying that I don't know . . . Prabhupāda: So therefore, therefore you cannot stop the nature's process. You are dependent. You should first of all understand that you are dependent on nature's process. That is intelligence. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi . . . (BG 3.27). If you extravagantly say that "I shall stop this nature's process," that is lunacy, craziness. It is not possible. You have to accept that you are under the stringent laws of nature. Carol Jarvis: Oh, I couldn't . . . I agree with everything that you're saying about the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. So, but therefore how you can make a plan of happiness? Nature is baffling your plan. That you have to understand, "Why nature is baffling me?" That is real knowledge. Carol Jarvis: So your answer . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: . . . is to work with nature. Prabhupāda: We can do that. We can do that, that . . . You cannot combat with the nature's law, but Kṛṣṇa says that if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can do that. You can stop nature's law acting upon you. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Carol Jarvis: Why . . . why would you want to stop nature's law acting in its natural way? Prabhupāda: Because I don't want to be old man, but I am being forced. Therefore I want to stop this force of the nature. That is my natural inclination. Carol Jarvis: But isn't it also your natural . . . isn't it natural to . . . (indistinct) . . . with nature than to try and fight it? Prabhupāda: It is struggle. Struggle means . . . struggle for existence means there is something against my will, and I want to stop it. This is called struggle for existence. And that is . . . the whole world is going on, that . . . they have started that United Nation. Why United Nation? You remain . . . but they are trying to stop war. "Let us struggle unitedly." So that is going on. You don't want war, but the war is inevitable. Even the United Nation is there, still war is going on. That is struggle. So . . . but they are not coming to the point of understanding that, "We are trying so much, so hard, to become happy, but the nature is not allowing me." This is real intelligence. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . If we remain dull—"Let the nature's law act upon me as it likes"—and we go on struggling to stop it, it will never stop, because nature's law is so powerful. You cannot stop it. Carol Jarvis: But why do you want to fight nature's law? Prabhupāda: Then you want happiness. Again I am repeatedly saying that you don't want to stop your old age. You want to remain young. Carol Jarvis: No, no, no . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone . . . Carol Jarvis: I'm saying I think I can be happy by working within nature's laws rather than trying to fight them. Prabhupāda: That you are not working. That is . . . that is your . . . that is . . . Carol Jarvis: But I'm not unhappy. Prabhupāda: That's all . . . You are not happy. Carol Jarvis: No, I'm not unhappy. I'm perfectly happy. Prabhupāda: No, that is your ignorance. Nobody is happy. That is . . . then it is the happiness of the dog. He is also thinking happy. The hog is also thinking happy. That is another illusion. The dog may be a very big dog, and he can bark very nicely, but he is not happy because he has got a master. As soon as the master, "Come here," "Yes." Chain. Carol Jarvis: But all of these people have a master. You do the same to them. You call them and they jump. Prabhupāda: No. Carol Jarvis: That's the same as a dog coming to its master. Prabhupāda: Yes. But to have a real master and to have a false master . . . Carol Jarvis: What's the difference? Prabhupāda: Just like a physician. He is asking that, "Come here. Lie down." His knife . . . you know that he'll make surgical . . . he agrees. But if somebody, rogue, says that, "I shall cut your throat," he'll not agree. That is intelligence. A physician is also with the knife, and the rogue is also with the knife. When the physician says: "You lie down. I shall have some surgical operation," he agrees to ply on his body the knife. But he'll never agree if he knows that, "He is a rogue. He'll simply cut my throat." That is the difference. But superficially you see, "Both of them are with knife," but one for real happiness, one for false thing. Carol Jarvis: I find it hard to see the difference. Prabhupāda: Yes, you find out how to go to a physician, agree to his proposal. Then you'll be cured. Otherwise you'll have to suffer with that boil, always burning, burning, burning, burning. Carol Jarvis: Thank you for your time. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them some prasāda . (break) . . . yogī . There are many animals. They are also doing . . . (background conversation as people leave) And Garuḍa also, vegetarian. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Garuḍa. *Prabhupāda: Garuḍa. But he carries the Lord Viṣṇu. That is not the point. How to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, that is really . . . to become vegetarian, nonvegetarian, that is not very important. But we are interested in Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . We are not in the group of vegetarians or nonvegetarians. We are Kṛṣṇa*-ized. We take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . That is our . . . we are servant of Kṛṣṇa, so whatever is left over by Kṛṣṇa, we take. If Kṛṣṇa eats meat, we shall take Kṛṣṇa prasādam . What can we do? Therefore we offer Kṛṣṇa whatever He wants to eat, and we take the remnants. That is our . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26), so we offer Him. If Kṛṣṇa says: "Māṁsa, eggs, give Me," then we shall offer Him and take. Guest: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Carol Jarvis: Thank you very much. Bye bye. (guests leave) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They all take that this is some kind of a materialistic business, selling books and collecting money, and we purchase a beautiful temple . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that we are not material; it is all spiritual. That they do not know. Where is material? If everything is prepared and everything there is Kṛṣṇa, then where is material? When it is misused, other than Kṛṣṇa, then it is material. Now, just like the university department and the criminal department. Where is the difference superficially? That's a building, that's a building. There are officer; there are officer. There are rooms; there are rooms. Why it is called criminal, prison house? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The activities inside. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is the activity which concerns. In the university there is only activity of education, learning. And here, all the criminals are violating the laws, they are put together. But superficially they look the same room, same food, same office, same typewriter. So it is the question of understanding why it is called criminal department and why it is called university. So as soon as it is university department, that is good. The same building, the same Dictaphone, the same typewriter, same table, same chair, when they are used for Kṛṣṇa it is spiritual. The same money, everything, it looks like that. Therefore they cannot understand. The nirviśeṣavādī and the śūnyavādī , they, "Spiritual means these things should be zero." They say it should be zero. "No table, no chair, no house, no, no, no, no . . ." But that is (laughs) ignorance. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256). The things which are usable by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if we give up them, prapañcikā , as material, that is foolishness. That they do not know. They have yet to learn. It is Rūpa Gosvāmī's injunction. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ, mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgaḥ. Parityāga means giving up: "Oh, it is material." So we are not such fools, śūnyavādī and nirviśeṣavādī . We are not such fools. *Arjuna, he thought that not killing is better than killing, but Kṛṣṇa convinced him, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Therefore he, after reading Bhagavad*-gītā , he took it, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Generally people understand not killing is better than killing. But Kṛṣṇa explained to Arjuna, "No, if there is My desire, then killing is better than not killing." And that is knowledge. Therefore we have to carry out simply Kṛṣṇa's order or His representative's order. Then it is all good. Either killing or not killing, it doesn't matter because it is coming directly from the Supreme. And that is spiritual. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa induced Arjuna to kill? He was presenting as very good man, that "I shall not kill." And that's . . . actually that is good. Even if your enemy excuse him, that is very good idea. But if it is not desired by Kṛṣṇa, then it is bad. So our principle is: We have to act according to the desire of Kṛṣṇa; then it is good. Otherwise, bad. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So in spite of advancement of knowledge, because they are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore they are all duṣkṛtinaḥ , all sinful men. That is the test. So it is very difficult to understand this philosophy, but this is the fact. We are not going to be followers of zero- vādīs or impersonal- vādīs . We remain completely in the varieties, but these varieties are usable only for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. You cannot stop the varieties. You have to change the quality of the varieties. Just like we are eating. It is not possible to stop eating. Why shall I stop eating? But the quality is changed. It is prasādam . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like we're getting some money for our books . . . Prabhupāda: The quality's changed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . they take that spiritual life is negation of anything that they're doing now—no more money, no more anything. Prabhupāda: For our personal comfort, we, our students are lying on the floor. They are not using the money for purchasing nice furniture. No personal comfort. But if you say that, "You are purchasing big, big car," yes, for going quickly to serve Kṛṣṇa. Our service is main point. If I can go and serve Kṛṣṇa within a minute, why shall I wait for one hour? So we take all advantages. After all, it belongs to Kṛṣṇa. They say that "We have manufactured." That's all . . . but we say that Kṛṣṇa has manufactured. So they . . . this philosophy, it is little difficult to understand by the dull men, that nothing is without Kṛṣṇa. Everything . . . īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Sarvam , when we say sarvam , how we can exclude this and that? Everything is in relationship with Kṛṣṇa, sarvam. Sarvam means everything. So how can you discriminate, "This is material; this is spiritual"? The discrimination is that when it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is material, and when it is used for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. That is the explanation of sarvam . Just like a thief has stolen my money. The money will be utilized. He'll spend it. I am spending, and he is . . . then why he's criminal? If you plea . . . if you present this plea, that "Money's for spending, so either you spend or I spend . . ." But that is not the idea, that the money . . . my money means the money should be spent for my purpose, and because you have taken the money and spending for your purpose, therefore you are criminal. That is the distinction between material and spiritual. Money, or everything, belongs to Kṛṣṇa. When it is utilized for Kṛṣṇa, this is spiritual, and when it is not utilized for Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? You cannot say that, "Yes, I have taken your money, so you are also spending, I am also spending. So why do you call me a criminal?" The answer will be: "Yes, you are not spending for me; you are spending for you. Therefore you are criminal." Is it very difficult to understand? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That last argument again? You're taking money . . .? Prabhupāda: The money belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So if you spend it for Kṛṣṇa, then it is spiritual. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And if you spend for your benefit, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8), bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasām (BG 5.29). Repeatedly says. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor. So when everything is used for the fulfillment of the will of the proprietor, that is proper use. Otherwise improper use. Just like we have given several times this example, "Keep to the right," "Keep to the left." So you are driving your car. The will is, government will is, "Keep to the right." As soon as you keep to the left, immediately you are criminal. You cannot put this argument, "What is the wrong? I am driving." "No, because you have violated my will, therefore you are . . ." the government will see. That is criminal. So everything . . . bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasā . . . He is the proprietor. He is the enjoyer. So because you have enjoyed without His permission, therefore you become criminal. You are punishable. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpam (BG 3.13). You'll see this verse. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhagavad*-gītā . *Prabhupāda: Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Devotee: It's gone, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What can I do? Gurukṛpā: "In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajña , supply all necessities to man. But he who enjoys these gifts without offering them to the demigods in return is certainly a thief." Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The machine, I forgot to turn it . . . one knob down. I wanted to tape what you were saying, because . . . (break) We find actually it's true that when we try to speak philosophy sometimes to unwilling persons, they take that we are trying to convert them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And therefore they feel threatened. They react in an adverse way, put up so many barriers. Prabhupāda: Chanting they will take part. That's it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Before you went to America, in India, before 1965, were people coming at all, Indian people, to learn anything? Were they interested in any way? Prabhupāda: No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now they're coming, so many. Prabhupāda: They were coming, but I was engaged in writing. I was not visiting many . . . (break) Hari-śauri: . . . when they begin to write, then they finish up their activities and retire and simply write. But you wrote first and then came out and distributed it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I personally, I don't think that even Americans or Westerners would have accepted even your teachings, as clear as they are, without having your personal association and seeing your example. I think people would have thought that it's totally impossible to do such a thing. Hari-śauri: It would have remained theoretical. But because you came and showed practical example, then everything has become very easy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Āpani ācārī prabhu jīvera śikṣāya . That is the way of teaching. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I've read some of your old Back to Godhead magazines, and actually you've been saying the same thing all along, with the same force also. Some of your critiques of Dr. Radhakrishnan's Bhagavad*-gītā and modern science . . . Prabhupāda: You have read? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: "Scholars Deluded." Hari-śauri: Sometimes the devotees say that, "Now Prabhupāda is preaching much more strongly than ever before." But then, when we read the old Back to Godheads , it's exactly the same. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even if we read the First Canto of *Bhāgavatam* . . . Hari-śauri: It's very powerful. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You translated that in India before you came. (end) Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The machine, I forgot to turn it . . . one knob down. I wanted to tape what you were saying, because . . . (break) We find actually it's true that when we try to speak philosophy sometimes to unwilling persons, they take that we are trying to convert them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And therefore they feel threatened. They react in an adverse way, put up so many barriers. Prabhupāda: Chanting they will take part. That's it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Before you went to America, in India, before 1965, were people coming at all, Indian people, to learn anything? Were they interested in any way? Prabhupāda: No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now they're coming, so many. Prabhupāda: They were coming, but I was engaged in writing. I was not visiting many . . . (break) Hari-śauri: . . . when they begin to write, then they finish up their activities and retire and simply write. But you wrote first and then came out and distributed it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I personally, I don't think that even Americans or Westerners would have accepted even your teachings, as clear as they are, without having your personal association and seeing your example. I think people would have thought that it's totally impossible to do such a thing. Hari-śauri: It would have remained theoretical. But because you came and showed practical example, then everything has become very easy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Āpani ācārī prabhu jīvera śikṣāya . That is the way of teaching. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I've read some of your old Back to Godhead magazines, and actually you've been saying the same thing all along, with the same force also. Some of your critiques of Dr. Radhakrishnan's Bhagavad*-gītā and modern science . . . Prabhupāda: You have read? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: "Scholars Deluded." Hari-śauri: Sometimes the devotees say that, "Now Prabhupāda is preaching much more strongly than ever before." But then, when we read the old Back to Godheads , it's exactly the same. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even if we read the First Canto of *Bhāgavatam* . . . Hari-śauri: It's very powerful. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You translated that in India before you came. (end) (Conversation with Minister Dixon) Devotee (1): . . . social welfare, and also he's minister for sport and recreation. He has come to see you, and this is his secretary. Mr. Dixon: Well, I am very pleased to have the opportunity of meeting you. Prabhupāda: Sit down. Mr. Dixon: How long have you been in Australia? Prabhupāda: Just up to Sunday. Monday we are going? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we were here on the twentieth of July. We'll be here until Monday. Mr. Dixon: What's the main reason for your visit? Prabhupāda: Preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, about Kṛṣṇa. You have seen our books, our . . . show him. Devotee (1): Have you seen Prabhupāda's books? The book I was just showing you? Mr. Dixon: I am not very familiar with the books. Prabhupāda: We have got very good response for accepting our books all over the world, Kṛṣṇa books. Mr. Dixon: The reason that I was most interested to come is that my responsibilities in Victoria are a lot to do with the growth of our young people, and I think that many of the things that we don't succeed in doing, the problems that we have with drugs and alcohol and all sorts of unhappiness, that what your life indicates has got something that I think we could do well to take parts of it, to be involved in the things, the way in which we live. And I'd be interested to hear from you as to what you would believe might be done to encourage a greater acceptance of your areas of philosophy and religion. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our philosophy is to purify, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12). Our philosophy is to purify the core of the heart from all dirty things. This is the basic principle of our philosophy, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam , cleansing the core of the heart. So just this morning several boys and girls became initiated. So our first promise is, before the Deity, before the fire, before the Vaiṣṇavas, before the spiritual master, that from this day no more illicit sex, no more intoxication, no more meat-eating, no more gambling. This is the first initiation. Then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Very simple method. But one cannot practice these things without association of devotees. Nobody can do it outside. But here they are able; immediately they give up. All these boys, they were addicted to all these habits, but since they have come to the association, immediately they have given up, instantly. So you can bring any number of young men, and we shall be glad to make him free from all these things, practically engage him. It is open. If you like, you can take advantage. Mr. Dixon: Yes. I am thinking more in terms of our general education system, for example. Prabhupāda: This is the best education. Our education begins when we learn to see all women as mother. That is the beginning of education. Mr. Dixon: When we learn . . . Prabhupāda: It doesn't require Ph.D. degrees to train him in such a way that a person will see, except his married wife, all women as mother. Mr. Dixon: Women as . . .? Prabhupāda: All women. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: As mother. Mr. Dixon: As mother. *Prabhupāda: Mother. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu . This is the original system of education in India, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu , to think of all women except his own wife as mother. Para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat : "Others' money as the garbage in the street." Nobody touches the garbage. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu (Cāṇakya-śloka 10): "And one who sees all other living entities on the level of himself . . ." If you feel pinching, why should you pinch others? If one learns these three things, he is paṇḍita , he is learned. And another three things: When you accept Kṛṣṇa, or God . . . when I say Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means God. God is the proprietor of everything. Just take for example the United Nation. They are going and making noise, full speeches, for the last fifty years, but the fighting is going on. But they do not . . . why do they not pass a resolution that, "This earth planet . . ." Take . . . only take this earth planet, earthly planet. Other you leave aside. "This is the property of God, and we are all sons of God. Let us enjoy the property of the . . ." But you will not allow. You Australian, you have got so much land. You won't allow anybody to come, because you think it is your land. Mr. Dixon: Yes, I think, ah, if you're looking at the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, this is the principle. Actually it is not your land. You come from Europe. Mr. Dixon: I agree that it's not. *Prabhupāda: But you are now claiming it is your land. The Africans, they are claiming . . . so much land, you can produce ten times food grains for as many population as there are. Ten times milk is required, food grain is required. That is the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Mr. Dixon: If we produced all of the foods that we could produce and we literally gave them away to other countries that need them, we'd produce a tremendous disincentive in those countries for their own production. I don't think it's as easy, the world . . . Prabhupāda: Production . . . you take the total land as God's property, and all the population, they are sons of God. Then whole problem solved. Everything solved. If economic problem is solved, then social, political, religious, philosophical, everything is solved. Mr. Dixon: If there was exchange without money, I think you'd be right. Prabhupāda: No money required. No money required. Simply one is required to work to produce food grain. That's all. No money required. And God has given us so much land that we can produce food grain and we can keep cows' milk, and from milk we derive so many rich, nutritious, full of vitamins foodstuff that the whole economic question solved immediately. But we are producing . . . instead of food grain, we are producing tobacco for smoking cigarette. We are producing coffee for going to hell. So how you can expect social reformation? In Africa I have seen: instead of producing grain, they are producing coffee, tea, and keeping the cows for killing, making business to sell meat to other countries. Mr. Dixon: Is incense a form of intoxication? Prabhupāda: Incense? No. Why intoxication? Mr. Dixon: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Incense keeps the atmosphere very nice, fresh. *Mr. Dixon: Very sweet*-smelling. Gurukṛpā: This flower is not intoxicating. Prabhupāda: It is just like in your country, what is that fragrance? Scent. Scent. Gurukṛpā: Perfume? Prabhupāda: Perfume is very popular. Mr. Dixon: But I would have thought that in some ways it might perform the same sort of function for some people as, say, smoking some cigarettes performs for others. Prabhupāda: No. Mr. Dixon: In other words, it . . . Prabhupāda: That depends on the particular man, what kind of flavor he wants. That is another thing. But there are different varieties of incense. Generally we use rose flavor, sandalwood flavor. We offer to the Deity room to keep the atmosphere very favorable. This is, originally in India it was dhūpa . They used to put in the fire some flavored hulls, and it was very nice. That has been transferred into now stick incense. Mr. Dixon: The stricture on the eating of meat, does that derive from the fact that animals have their lives which are accorded . . . Prabhupāda: No, vegetable, vegetable has got life. Mr. Dixon: Yes. What I'm asking is that because animals have a higher priority in life than vegetables? *Prabhupāda: No question of priority. Our philosophy is that we are servant of God. So God will eat, and whatever remnants of foodstuff He'll left, that we shall take. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (aside) You find out this verse: patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Just like you have come here. So if I want to offer you something for eatable, it is my duty to ask you, "Mr. Nixon, which foodstuff you'll like to eat?" So you dictate, "I like this very much." Then, if I offer you that foodstuff, then you become pleased. So we have called Kṛṣṇa in this temple, so we are waiting, what foodstuff He wants to eat. So He said that . . . Gurukṛpā: "If one offers me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it." Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam. He is asking very simple thing which everyone can offer. Just like a little leaf, patram; a little flower, puṣpam; a little fruit; and little liquid, either water or ghee, er, milk. So we offer that. We make different varieties with these ingredients, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), and after Kṛṣṇa's eating, we take it. We are servant; *we take the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. We are neither vegetarian nor nonvegetarian. We are prasād*-ian . We don't care for vegetable or not vegetable, because either you kill a cow or kill a vegetable, the sinful action is there. And according to nature's law, it is said that "The animals which has no hand, that is the food for the animals with hands." We are also animals with hands. We human being, we are also animal with hands, and they are animals—no hand but four legs. And there are animals which has no leg, that is vegetable. Apadāni catuṣ-padām (SB 1.13.47). These animals which has no leg, they are food for the animals with four leg. Just like cow eats grass, the goat eats grass. So eating vegetable, there is no credit. Then the goats and the cows are more credit, have more credit, because they don't touch anything except vegetable. So we are not preaching to become goats and cows. No. We are preaching that you become servant of Kṛṣṇa. So whatever Kṛṣṇa eats, we eat. If Kṛṣṇa says that, "Give me meat, give me eggs," so we shall offer Kṛṣṇa meat and eggs, and we shall take it. So don't think that we are after vegetarian, nonvegetarian. No. That is not our philosophy. Because either you take vegetable or you take meat, you are killing. And you have to kill, because otherwise you cannot live. That is nature's way. Mr. Dixon: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we are not for that way. Mr. Dixon: Well, why do you put the stricture on . . . *Prabhupāda: Stricture in this way, no meat*-eating, because cow protection is required. We require milk. And instead of taking milk, if we eat the cows, then where is milk? Mr. Dixon: So milk is very important. Prabhupāda: Very, very important. Mr. Dixon: In terms of the production of food for the world, the world would be much better off without eating animals. Prabhupāda: No, milk is required. Some fatty vitaminous food is required. That necessity is supplied by milk. Therefore specifically . . . Mr. Dixon: Couldn't you get all the necessity you require from grains? Prabhupāda: Grains, no. Grains, they are starch. According to medical science, we require four different groups: starch, carbohydrate, protein and fat. That is full food. So you can get all these things by eating rice, ḍāl , mean pulses, and wheat, and . . . these things contain . . . pulses and wheat contains protein. And milk also contains protein. So protein we require. Fat we get from milk. Fat is required. And vegetables, carbohydrate and food grain, starch. So if you prepare nice foodstuff with all these ingredients, you get full . . . and offer to Kṛṣṇa, then it is purified. Then you are free from all sinful activities. Otherwise, even if you kill vegetable, you are sinful because it has got life. You have no right to kill another life. But you have to live on life. This is your position. Therefore the solution is that you take prasādam . If there is sin by eating vegetable or meat, it goes to the eater. We take the remnants, that's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You follow? Mr. Dixon: Not exactly. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The food that we take is first offered to Kṛṣṇa in the temple, so Kṛṣṇa is the first to eat. And Kṛṣṇa demands that, "You offer Me this particular sorts of foodstuff." So one becomes free from all sinful reactions by first offering to Kṛṣṇa the foodstuff. Not only are you eating, but also you become freed from sinful reaction. Mr. Dixon: I see. Prabhupāda: Don't think we are vegetarian. We can become anything, provided it is eaten from the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. This is our thing. To become vegetarian . . . there are many animals who are vegetarians. The monkeys are vegetarian; the goats are vegetarian; *the cows are vegetarian. So that is not a good qualification, to become vegetarian and become an animal, or to become lion, tiger, dog. So either you are vegetarian or meat*-eater . . . there are many animals. So we are not going to be animals. We are going to become human being. This is our philosophy. Grouping ourself to the vegetarian kingdom or nonvege . . . the animals. The tiger is a great nonvegetarian. Fresh blood they want to eat, drink. Mr. Dixon: Your Grace, do you keep in touch with the world through television or newspapers or the media? Prabhupāda: Yes, many newspaper, many television men, they come. But we speak our philosophy plainly. Mr. Dixon: Do you watch TV yourself? Prabhupāda: No, we have no business. We don't wish to waste our time. Mr. Dixon: Do you read newspapers? Prabhupāda: No. What is newspaper? "This man is killed. This man has stolen. This politician has captured the government." So why shall I waste in the time? Mr. Dixon: How do you become informed as to certain events? Is that . . . Prabhupāda: We have got enough books to read, these books. If you read our books, in your whole lifetime you cannot finish it. And that is required to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is success of life. So why should . . . of course, we are in touch in the newspaper, but as much as it is required. We are in touch with the material world as much as it is required. We are interested in Kṛṣṇa. To help our Kṛṣṇa consciousness we may be in touch with the material world as much as possible. Just like we are riding car also, we are also using Dictaphone, everything, but it is not for any ulterior purpose. It is for Kṛṣṇa's service. Just like we are writing books. This is Kṛṣṇa's service. People may understand about Kṛṣṇa, be benefited. This is our . . . and in that way we are printing books, we are selling books, we are writing books. Mr. Dixon: How many people are in the Kṛṣṇa movement in the world, about? Prabhupāda: About ten to twelve thousand, directly dedicated. Otherwise millions, they are reading our books. They have sympathy. We are selling books very nicely, daily twenty thousand dollar minimum all over the world. In learned circle, big, big universities, professors, they are appreciating. We have many congratulations. Mr. Dixon: And the funds that you derive from the books . . . Prabhupāda: Book Trust. That is explained. Mr. Dixon: . . . are used within your congre . . . within the people that live in . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. I make a Book Trust. That is my will, that from all the collection of the books, fifty percent for reprinting and fifty percent for expanding these temples, these buildings. In this way. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We really don't require very much for our maintenance. As you can see, we live a very simple life. Prabhupāda: Just like these boys, they are practiced to sit down. We have kept two chairs for the visitors. (laughter) We don't require. We can lie down on the floor. We can use only one or two cloths, that's all, throughout the whole year. We have no demands; only bare necessities. We don't smoke, don't drink. There is no expenditure. Don't go to cinema, don't read newspaper or ordinary magazines—nothing. We have got reading matter. Practically we are noncooperating. Mr. Dixon: Practically . . .? Prabhupāda: Noncooperating. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Noncooperating. Mr. Dixon: Noncooperating? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Practically. Mr. Dixon: I don't understand that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because we are not engaged in so many of the superfluous or unnecessary . . . Prabhupāda: Material amenities. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These things are described in Vedic terms as anartha . They are not very important or very valuable to human advancement. What is really essential is advancement in knowledge. Mr. Dixon: One of the principles upon which I have lived is a question of involvement with the people around me in trying to do things better than they have been done before. *Prabhupāda: But you must know first of all what is the aim of life and what is better. That we must know. So that is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that we are not interested in God; *then whole thing is spoiled. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). We are not interested in God. We want to be happy by adjusting the external energy of God. That is blind leadership. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This will never be successful, and it is blind leadership because we do not know what is the aim. If you know the aim of life, and if we make program according to that aim, then it will be successful. Blindly everyone is manufacturing his aim, objective—different leaders, different "isms." The Communists, they have got different aims. The capitalists, they have got different aims. The socialists, they have got different aims. Mr. Dixon: Is it true that there are more young people now in the world that are giving more serious thought to what life is really all about? Prabhupāda: Yes, they should. Because they are being educated, they are experiencing the faults of their fathers and grandfathers. Mr. Dixon: And are they able to tell that? Prabhupāda: So we are telling, "This is the aim. You take." And therefore more response from the younger section. All our devotees, they are just like my grandchildren. Their fathers may be like my children. But they are responsive. Mr. Dixon: How do you spend a day? Prabhupāda: Day? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How do we . . . what do we do during the day? What are our activities? *Prabhupāda: We have got activities day and night, but because the body is there, we have to eat, but we eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam . And naturally we go to sleep, to take some rest. Otherwise, we are always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. We have no other business. So I go in the morning for little morning walk because the body, whole day if I sit down, it may be jammed. Therefore, for body's sake, I go for little walking. And then, whole day and night, I am sitting here, either chanting or writing books or talking with you, giving them direction. That's all. We have no other business than Kṛṣṇa's business. That is the peculiarity of this movement. Even if you take it is a religious movement, there is no religious movement in the whole world which has got twenty*-four hours' engagement. You'll never find. The Christians go to the church once in a week for one hour, then closed. That is also not very regularly. Even if you take . . . our engagement, twenty-four hours. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Every day. *Prabhupāda: Every day. You can see how we are engaged twenty*-four hours. Gurukṛpā: Prabhupāda gets up at one o'clock in the morning. Prabhupāda: Last night I woke up at half past twelve. (laughter) Yes. So on the whole, utmost I sleep four hours—two hours at night and two hours in daytime. Mr. Dixon: I must . . . your Grace, I'm most grateful to have seen you. I must depart. Thank you very much for having me here. Prabhupāda: Why, thank you for your coming. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him prasāda . *Mr. Dixon: Good*-bye. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . misleader. But he himself has no character. So here it is open secret, to keep a beautiful girl as secretary, everywhere in Europe and America. So where is purity? Marriage is a taboo, and keep secretary is very good job. And you can get secretary even free of charge. Rather, she will pay. So this is going on. In Vedic civilization marriage is one of the important function of life. As death is important function, birth is important function, similarly, marriage is also important function. Janma*-mṛtyu-vivāha. So in this age everywhere, not only . . . the marriage is now farce. This is the symptom of Kali-yuga: there will be no more marriage. Svīkāra eva codvāhe (SB 12.2.5). Even there is marriage, there will be simply an agreement. That is happening, and it was written five thousand years ago. Svīkāra eva. Svīkāra means by agreement, signing agreement. No marriage function. Otherwise, marriage is a . . . According to Vedic system, if one has got some money, he will spend the money in three functions. When the child is born, very gorgeously he will spend money, give in charity. Always in the Bhāg . . . Nanda Mahārāja is giving in charity cows and money, and Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja is giving. Kṛṣṇa, as family man, He was giving in charity. So when the child is born, the horoscope is made, and to make the child happy, blessings of saintly persons, brāhmaṇas , they are given. So ordinary men also sumptuously fed. So bhūribhiḥ . Everyone gives some blessings so that the child is . . . then marriage. During marriage time . . . you have seen Kṛṣṇa's mother's marriage? That was the system. The father gives to his heart content as much as possible to the daughter. The Kṛṣṇa's mother was royal prince, so her father gave so many elephants, so many horses, so many chariots. (break) This śrāddha ceremony. That is also, feeding the learned brāhmaṇas , saintly person, poor man, relative. Lavishly they spend money during three occasions: birth, death and marriage. During birth the father spends; the marriage, father spends; and death, the son spends. This is the system. So social reformation, but there is no idea how the society will be happy. There is no idea. They are trying to remove this intoxication, LSD, but do not see the cause why LSD has come. They do not try to stop that cause. When the cause is effective, then they are disturbed with the effect. This is the defect. Neither they'll take advice. So how they'll be able to . . . big, big officer, drawing high salary, that's all. There is no effect. Neither there can be any effect. It is not possible. They do not know. Neither they want it. So we are advocating, "Remove these four sinful activities," so nobody will agree. "Illicit sex is our life, to keep a friend, to keep a secretary." And we are advising, "No illicit sex." Then where is life? That's all. Devotee (2): They say, "Why should I live if I can't do these things?" Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): One devotee in New Zealand, his father was dying of leukemia. He told his father to stop eating meat and smoking cigarettes and his health would improve. His father said, "If I can't do these things, what is the use of living?" Prabhupāda: So somebody should . . . (break) . . . committed suicide? Hari-śauri: Ernest Hemingway. Ernest Hemingway. When he found out . . . when the doctor told him he couldn't have sex life anymore, he killed himself. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He was a very big and rich author. Prabhupāda: This is the, I mean, important men. Gurukṛpā: That one Marwari, he spent eighteen lakhs of rupees. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurukṛpā: Marwari, who spent eighteen lakhs . Prabhupāda: I do not know eighteen lakhs , but I know that he went to Germany for medical operation and changing the gland with monkey's gland. Yes. He was eighty years old at that time. Devotee (3): The leaders are so infected. There was an article recently . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). That is already dictated by *Bhāgavatam* . These leaders, rascals, who are blind, and they are trying to lead other blind men. All of them are falling in the ditch. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the case of Mahārāja Veṇa there was some recourse for the brāhmaṇas . What can we do? *Prabhupāda: Yes, brāhmaṇas were controlling the kṣatriyas . They were obeying the instruction of brāhmaṇas . That is social function. The first*-class man will give instruction to the government, and the government will carry the order, "Whether people are actually doing this." Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya . And vaiśya will produce food grain and milk sufficiently. And the śūdras , they will help these three higher classes. That's all. This is social system. (break) The brāhmaṇas , they will be always engaged to make plan how people will be successful in the aim of life. And that will be executed through the kṣatriyas . And the vaiśyas will supply foodstuff. Food is also required. And good government is required, and nice direction is required. This is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. And śūdra , they have no brain; *they will abide by the orders of these higher sections, that's all. So our movement is creating first*-class Brāhmiṇs , and the kṣatriyas , if they abide by our instruction—our instruction means Kṛṣṇa's instruction—then everything will be nicely done. Sannyāsīs , they have begun to keep secretaries. Gurukṛpā: Yogi Bhajan. *Prabhupāda: So many. This tail, dog's tail. Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha or anything, the tail is this side. You may grease it as much as possible, but the whole tendency is sex, that's all, in different dresses only. The objective is sex. This is going on. Some of them are openly declaring that, "I am for sex," and some of them showbottle. But the objective is sex. This is the whole world. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha (SB 7.9.45). And these sannyāsīs like Rajneesh, they are advocating, "This is life—sex. By sex indulgence you get salvation." These brahma-kumārīs . Not brahmacārī but brahma-kumārī. Kumārīs are available very easily. And they keep. And the rich men, they are supplied with nice, beautiful kumārīs . They pay money. This is going on. Brahma-kumārī . They enjoy, and they invite the karmīs to enjoy and get money. Kumārī is there; money is there. That's all. Everywhere this is going on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This just came from Los Angeles along with some other things. They're having an International Yoga and Meditation conference in Chicago in June, and Rāmeśvara was wanting to know if we should send some of our preachers there, to try and have some kind of a booth or take part in it. Prabhupāda: If it is possible. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is sponsored by the Himalayan International Institute of Yoga Science and Philosophy, Swami Rama from the Himalayas. Prabhupāda: Bogus. He's a bogus. Then don't take part. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's many . . . it's costing fifteen dollars for people to get in. Prabhupāda: So we are not going to give. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most . . . I have looked over the people who are speaking. Most of them are from this society. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most of them are from this society. It seems what they've done, they've taken some of the big bhogīs in America like Satchidananda and others, and they've invited them, to draw bigger crowds. So they're taking this opportunity for money*-making. I think we'll probably sell books there, anyway. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'm sure that our devotees will sell books there. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can have a book stall. Gurukṛpā: But outside, though. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Somehow or another. Gurukṛpā: We used to do outside. *Prabhupāda: There is no use taking part in that meeting. Simply take a book stall: " Bhakti*-yoga books." Give a signboard, " Bhakti-yoga books." And give the picture of Dhruva Mahārāja, five-years-old boy, executing bhakti-yoga alone in the forest. We have got meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). That is real yoga . And Bhagavad-gītā , yoginām api . . . these ślokas, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā (BG 6.47). One who's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, he is first-class yogī . Give one picture of the devotees chanting in a very nice place, and give evidence, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā : "This, first-class yogī . Here is first-class yogī ." That will be our preaching. Dhruva Mahārāja is practicing yoga . There are many others. So the highest perfection is Rādhārāṇī, that simply crying, "Kṛṣṇa has gone to Mathurā, not coming back." That is the . . . the whole day and night crying. Who can perform this yoga ? So if you, if possible, draw pictures. Satchidananda, he is also a leader? He has? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Gurukṛpā: Yogi Bhajan. Prabhupāda: Yogi Bhajan also? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kriyananda Swami, Nada Brahmānanda from Rishikesh, Swami Ajaya, Ph.D., from Madison, Wisconsin. (laughter) It's a small college town in America. Yogi Bhajan. There's many others. Gurukṛpā: They have these names. These names are not like our names. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A lot of Indian doctors from Canada and India, America. Hari-śauri: There's one with a Japanese name as well. Prabhupāda: So you can give yogī import that, "Hare Kṛṣṇa is the greatest of all yoga systems." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Topmost yoga . *Prabhupāda: Yes. And quote from Bhagavad*-gītā . Show pictures. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You'd like to take your massage now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (break) (end) (Conversation with Minister Dixon) Devotee (1): . . . social welfare, and also he's minister for sport and recreation. He has come to see you, and this is his secretary. Mr. Dixon: Well, I am very pleased to have the opportunity of meeting you. Prabhupāda: Sit down. Mr. Dixon: How long have you been in Australia? Prabhupāda: Just up to Sunday. Monday we are going? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we were here on the twentieth of July. We'll be here until Monday. Mr. Dixon: What's the main reason for your visit? Prabhupāda: Preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, about Kṛṣṇa. You have seen our books, our . . . show him. Devotee (1): Have you seen Prabhupāda's books? The book I was just showing you? Mr. Dixon: I am not very familiar with the books. Prabhupāda: We have got very good response for accepting our books all over the world, Kṛṣṇa books. Mr. Dixon: The reason that I was most interested to come is that my responsibilities in Victoria are a lot to do with the growth of our young people, and I think that many of the things that we don't succeed in doing, the problems that we have with drugs and alcohol and all sorts of unhappiness, that what your life indicates has got something that I think we could do well to take parts of it, to be involved in the things, the way in which we live. And I'd be interested to hear from you as to what you would believe might be done to encourage a greater acceptance of your areas of philosophy and religion. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our philosophy is to purify, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12). Our philosophy is to purify the core of the heart from all dirty things. This is the basic principle of our philosophy, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam , cleansing the core of the heart. So just this morning several boys and girls became initiated. So our first promise is, before the Deity, before the fire, before the Vaiṣṇavas, before the spiritual master, that from this day no more illicit sex, no more intoxication, no more meat-eating, no more gambling. This is the first initiation. Then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Very simple method. But one cannot practice these things without association of devotees. Nobody can do it outside. But here they are able; immediately they give up. All these boys, they were addicted to all these habits, but since they have come to the association, immediately they have given up, instantly. So you can bring any number of young men, and we shall be glad to make him free from all these things, practically engage him. It is open. If you like, you can take advantage. Mr. Dixon: Yes. I am thinking more in terms of our general education system, for example. Prabhupāda: This is the best education. Our education begins when we learn to see all women as mother. That is the beginning of education. Mr. Dixon: When we learn . . . Prabhupāda: It doesn't require Ph.D. degrees to train him in such a way that a person will see, except his married wife, all women as mother. Mr. Dixon: Women as . . .? Prabhupāda: All women. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: As mother. Mr. Dixon: As mother. *Prabhupāda: Mother. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu . This is the original system of education in India, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu , to think of all women except his own wife as mother. Para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat : "Others' money as the garbage in the street." Nobody touches the garbage. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu (Cāṇakya-śloka 10): "And one who sees all other living entities on the level of himself . . ." If you feel pinching, why should you pinch others? If one learns these three things, he is paṇḍita , he is learned. And another three things: When you accept Kṛṣṇa, or God . . . when I say Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means God. God is the proprietor of everything. Just take for example the United Nation. They are going and making noise, full speeches, for the last fifty years, but the fighting is going on. But they do not . . . why do they not pass a resolution that, "This earth planet . . ." Take . . . only take this earth planet, earthly planet. Other you leave aside. "This is the property of God, and we are all sons of God. Let us enjoy the property of the . . ." But you will not allow. You Australian, you have got so much land. You won't allow anybody to come, because you think it is your land. Mr. Dixon: Yes, I think, ah, if you're looking at the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, this is the principle. Actually it is not your land. You come from Europe. Mr. Dixon: I agree that it's not. *Prabhupāda: But you are now claiming it is your land. The Africans, they are claiming . . . so much land, you can produce ten times food grains for as many population as there are. Ten times milk is required, food grain is required. That is the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Mr. Dixon: If we produced all of the foods that we could produce and we literally gave them away to other countries that need them, we'd produce a tremendous disincentive in those countries for their own production. I don't think it's as easy, the world . . . Prabhupāda: Production . . . you take the total land as God's property, and all the population, they are sons of God. Then whole problem solved. Everything solved. If economic problem is solved, then social, political, religious, philosophical, everything is solved. Mr. Dixon: If there was exchange without money, I think you'd be right. Prabhupāda: No money required. No money required. Simply one is required to work to produce food grain. That's all. No money required. And God has given us so much land that we can produce food grain and we can keep cows' milk, and from milk we derive so many rich, nutritious, full of vitamins foodstuff that the whole economic question solved immediately. But we are producing . . . instead of food grain, we are producing tobacco for smoking cigarette. We are producing coffee for going to hell. So how you can expect social reformation? In Africa I have seen: instead of producing grain, they are producing coffee, tea, and keeping the cows for killing, making business to sell meat to other countries. Mr. Dixon: Is incense a form of intoxication? Prabhupāda: Incense? No. Why intoxication? Mr. Dixon: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Incense keeps the atmosphere very nice, fresh. *Mr. Dixon: Very sweet*-smelling. Gurukṛpā: This flower is not intoxicating. Prabhupāda: It is just like in your country, what is that fragrance? Scent. Scent. Gurukṛpā: Perfume? Prabhupāda: Perfume is very popular. Mr. Dixon: But I would have thought that in some ways it might perform the same sort of function for some people as, say, smoking some cigarettes performs for others. Prabhupāda: No. Mr. Dixon: In other words, it . . . Prabhupāda: That depends on the particular man, what kind of flavor he wants. That is another thing. But there are different varieties of incense. Generally we use rose flavor, sandalwood flavor. We offer to the Deity room to keep the atmosphere very favorable. This is, originally in India it was dhūpa . They used to put in the fire some flavored hulls, and it was very nice. That has been transferred into now stick incense. Mr. Dixon: The stricture on the eating of meat, does that derive from the fact that animals have their lives which are accorded . . . Prabhupāda: No, vegetable, vegetable has got life. Mr. Dixon: Yes. What I'm asking is that because animals have a higher priority in life than vegetables? *Prabhupāda: No question of priority. Our philosophy is that we are servant of God. So God will eat, and whatever remnants of foodstuff He'll left, that we shall take. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (aside) You find out this verse: patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Just like you have come here. So if I want to offer you something for eatable, it is my duty to ask you, "Mr. Nixon, which foodstuff you'll like to eat?" So you dictate, "I like this very much." Then, if I offer you that foodstuff, then you become pleased. So we have called Kṛṣṇa in this temple, so we are waiting, what foodstuff He wants to eat. So He said that . . . Gurukṛpā: "If one offers me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it." Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam. He is asking very simple thing which everyone can offer. Just like a little leaf, patram; a little flower, puṣpam; a little fruit; and little liquid, either water or ghee, er, milk. So we offer that. We make different varieties with these ingredients, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), and after Kṛṣṇa's eating, we take it. We are servant; *we take the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. We are neither vegetarian nor nonvegetarian. We are prasād*-ian . We don't care for vegetable or not vegetable, because either you kill a cow or kill a vegetable, the sinful action is there. And according to nature's law, it is said that "The animals which has no hand, that is the food for the animals with hands." We are also animals with hands. We human being, we are also animal with hands, and they are animals—no hand but four legs. And there are animals which has no leg, that is vegetable. Apadāni catuṣ-padām (SB 1.13.47). These animals which has no leg, they are food for the animals with four leg. Just like cow eats grass, the goat eats grass. So eating vegetable, there is no credit. Then the goats and the cows are more credit, have more credit, because they don't touch anything except vegetable. So we are not preaching to become goats and cows. No. We are preaching that you become servant of Kṛṣṇa. So whatever Kṛṣṇa eats, we eat. If Kṛṣṇa says that, "Give me meat, give me eggs," so we shall offer Kṛṣṇa meat and eggs, and we shall take it. So don't think that we are after vegetarian, nonvegetarian. No. That is not our philosophy. Because either you take vegetable or you take meat, you are killing. And you have to kill, because otherwise you cannot live. That is nature's way. Mr. Dixon: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we are not for that way. Mr. Dixon: Well, why do you put the stricture on . . . *Prabhupāda: Stricture in this way, no meat*-eating, because cow protection is required. We require milk. And instead of taking milk, if we eat the cows, then where is milk? Mr. Dixon: So milk is very important. Prabhupāda: Very, very important. Mr. Dixon: In terms of the production of food for the world, the world would be much better off without eating animals. Prabhupāda: No, milk is required. Some fatty vitaminous food is required. That necessity is supplied by milk. Therefore specifically . . . Mr. Dixon: Couldn't you get all the necessity you require from grains? Prabhupāda: Grains, no. Grains, they are starch. According to medical science, we require four different groups: starch, carbohydrate, protein and fat. That is full food. So you can get all these things by eating rice, ḍāl , mean pulses, and wheat, and . . . these things contain . . . pulses and wheat contains protein. And milk also contains protein. So protein we require. Fat we get from milk. Fat is required. And vegetables, carbohydrate and food grain, starch. So if you prepare nice foodstuff with all these ingredients, you get full . . . and offer to Kṛṣṇa, then it is purified. Then you are free from all sinful activities. Otherwise, even if you kill vegetable, you are sinful because it has got life. You have no right to kill another life. But you have to live on life. This is your position. Therefore the solution is that you take prasādam . If there is sin by eating vegetable or meat, it goes to the eater. We take the remnants, that's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You follow? Mr. Dixon: Not exactly. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The food that we take is first offered to Kṛṣṇa in the temple, so Kṛṣṇa is the first to eat. And Kṛṣṇa demands that, "You offer Me this particular sorts of foodstuff." So one becomes free from all sinful reactions by first offering to Kṛṣṇa the foodstuff. Not only are you eating, but also you become freed from sinful reaction. Mr. Dixon: I see. Prabhupāda: Don't think we are vegetarian. We can become anything, provided it is eaten from the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. This is our thing. To become vegetarian . . . there are many animals who are vegetarians. The monkeys are vegetarian; the goats are vegetarian; *the cows are vegetarian. So that is not a good qualification, to become vegetarian and become an animal, or to become lion, tiger, dog. So either you are vegetarian or meat*-eater . . . there are many animals. So we are not going to be animals. We are going to become human being. This is our philosophy. Grouping ourself to the vegetarian kingdom or nonvege . . . the animals. The tiger is a great nonvegetarian. Fresh blood they want to eat, drink. Mr. Dixon: Your Grace, do you keep in touch with the world through television or newspapers or the media? Prabhupāda: Yes, many newspaper, many television men, they come. But we speak our philosophy plainly. Mr. Dixon: Do you watch TV yourself? Prabhupāda: No, we have no business. We don't wish to waste our time. Mr. Dixon: Do you read newspapers? Prabhupāda: No. What is newspaper? "This man is killed. This man has stolen. This politician has captured the government." So why shall I waste in the time? Mr. Dixon: How do you become informed as to certain events? Is that . . . Prabhupāda: We have got enough books to read, these books. If you read our books, in your whole lifetime you cannot finish it. And that is required to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is success of life. So why should . . . of course, we are in touch in the newspaper, but as much as it is required. We are in touch with the material world as much as it is required. We are interested in Kṛṣṇa. To help our Kṛṣṇa consciousness we may be in touch with the material world as much as possible. Just like we are riding car also, we are also using Dictaphone, everything, but it is not for any ulterior purpose. It is for Kṛṣṇa's service. Just like we are writing books. This is Kṛṣṇa's service. People may understand about Kṛṣṇa, be benefited. This is our . . . and in that way we are printing books, we are selling books, we are writing books. Mr. Dixon: How many people are in the Kṛṣṇa movement in the world, about? Prabhupāda: About ten to twelve thousand, directly dedicated. Otherwise millions, they are reading our books. They have sympathy. We are selling books very nicely, daily twenty thousand dollar minimum all over the world. In learned circle, big, big universities, professors, they are appreciating. We have many congratulations. Mr. Dixon: And the funds that you derive from the books . . . Prabhupāda: Book Trust. That is explained. Mr. Dixon: . . . are used within your congre . . . within the people that live in . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. I make a Book Trust. That is my will, that from all the collection of the books, fifty percent for reprinting and fifty percent for expanding these temples, these buildings. In this way. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We really don't require very much for our maintenance. As you can see, we live a very simple life. Prabhupāda: Just like these boys, they are practiced to sit down. We have kept two chairs for the visitors. (laughter) We don't require. We can lie down on the floor. We can use only one or two cloths, that's all, throughout the whole year. We have no demands; only bare necessities. We don't smoke, don't drink. There is no expenditure. Don't go to cinema, don't read newspaper or ordinary magazines—nothing. We have got reading matter. Practically we are noncooperating. Mr. Dixon: Practically . . .? Prabhupāda: Noncooperating. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Noncooperating. Mr. Dixon: Noncooperating? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Practically. Mr. Dixon: I don't understand that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because we are not engaged in so many of the superfluous or unnecessary . . . Prabhupāda: Material amenities. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These things are described in Vedic terms as anartha . They are not very important or very valuable to human advancement. What is really essential is advancement in knowledge. Mr. Dixon: One of the principles upon which I have lived is a question of involvement with the people around me in trying to do things better than they have been done before. *Prabhupāda: But you must know first of all what is the aim of life and what is better. That we must know. So that is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that we are not interested in God; *then whole thing is spoiled. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). We are not interested in God. We want to be happy by adjusting the external energy of God. That is blind leadership. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This will never be successful, and it is blind leadership because we do not know what is the aim. If you know the aim of life, and if we make program according to that aim, then it will be successful. Blindly everyone is manufacturing his aim, objective—different leaders, different "isms." The Communists, they have got different aims. The capitalists, they have got different aims. The socialists, they have got different aims. Mr. Dixon: Is it true that there are more young people now in the world that are giving more serious thought to what life is really all about? Prabhupāda: Yes, they should. Because they are being educated, they are experiencing the faults of their fathers and grandfathers. Mr. Dixon: And are they able to tell that? Prabhupāda: So we are telling, "This is the aim. You take." And therefore more response from the younger section. All our devotees, they are just like my grandchildren. Their fathers may be like my children. But they are responsive. Mr. Dixon: How do you spend a day? Prabhupāda: Day? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How do we . . . what do we do during the day? What are our activities? *Prabhupāda: We have got activities day and night, but because the body is there, we have to eat, but we eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam . And naturally we go to sleep, to take some rest. Otherwise, we are always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. We have no other business. So I go in the morning for little morning walk because the body, whole day if I sit down, it may be jammed. Therefore, for body's sake, I go for little walking. And then, whole day and night, I am sitting here, either chanting or writing books or talking with you, giving them direction. That's all. We have no other business than Kṛṣṇa's business. That is the peculiarity of this movement. Even if you take it is a religious movement, there is no religious movement in the whole world which has got twenty*-four hours' engagement. You'll never find. The Christians go to the church once in a week for one hour, then closed. That is also not very regularly. Even if you take . . . our engagement, twenty-four hours. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Every day. *Prabhupāda: Every day. You can see how we are engaged twenty*-four hours. Gurukṛpā: Prabhupāda gets up at one o'clock in the morning. Prabhupāda: Last night I woke up at half past twelve. (laughter) Yes. So on the whole, utmost I sleep four hours—two hours at night and two hours in daytime. Mr. Dixon: I must . . . your Grace, I'm most grateful to have seen you. I must depart. Thank you very much for having me here. Prabhupāda: Why, thank you for your coming. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him prasāda . *Mr. Dixon: Good*-bye. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . misleader. But he himself has no character. So here it is open secret, to keep a beautiful girl as secretary, everywhere in Europe and America. So where is purity? Marriage is a taboo, and keep secretary is very good job. And you can get secretary even free of charge. Rather, she will pay. So this is going on. In Vedic civilization marriage is one of the important function of life. As death is important function, birth is important function, similarly, marriage is also important function. Janma*-mṛtyu-vivāha. So in this age everywhere, not only . . . the marriage is now farce. This is the symptom of Kali-yuga: there will be no more marriage. Svīkāra eva codvāhe (SB 12.2.5). Even there is marriage, there will be simply an agreement. That is happening, and it was written five thousand years ago. Svīkāra eva. Svīkāra means by agreement, signing agreement. No marriage function. Otherwise, marriage is a . . . According to Vedic system, if one has got some money, he will spend the money in three functions. When the child is born, very gorgeously he will spend money, give in charity. Always in the Bhāg . . . Nanda Mahārāja is giving in charity cows and money, and Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja is giving. Kṛṣṇa, as family man, He was giving in charity. So when the child is born, the horoscope is made, and to make the child happy, blessings of saintly persons, brāhmaṇas , they are given. So ordinary men also sumptuously fed. So bhūribhiḥ . Everyone gives some blessings so that the child is . . . then marriage. During marriage time . . . you have seen Kṛṣṇa's mother's marriage? That was the system. The father gives to his heart content as much as possible to the daughter. The Kṛṣṇa's mother was royal prince, so her father gave so many elephants, so many horses, so many chariots. (break) This śrāddha ceremony. That is also, feeding the learned brāhmaṇas , saintly person, poor man, relative. Lavishly they spend money during three occasions: birth, death and marriage. During birth the father spends; the marriage, father spends; and death, the son spends. This is the system. So social reformation, but there is no idea how the society will be happy. There is no idea. They are trying to remove this intoxication, LSD, but do not see the cause why LSD has come. They do not try to stop that cause. When the cause is effective, then they are disturbed with the effect. This is the defect. Neither they'll take advice. So how they'll be able to . . . big, big officer, drawing high salary, that's all. There is no effect. Neither there can be any effect. It is not possible. They do not know. Neither they want it. So we are advocating, "Remove these four sinful activities," so nobody will agree. "Illicit sex is our life, to keep a friend, to keep a secretary." And we are advising, "No illicit sex." Then where is life? That's all. Devotee (2): They say, "Why should I live if I can't do these things?" Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): One devotee in New Zealand, his father was dying of leukemia. He told his father to stop eating meat and smoking cigarettes and his health would improve. His father said, "If I can't do these things, what is the use of living?" Prabhupāda: So somebody should . . . (break) . . . committed suicide? Hari-śauri: Ernest Hemingway. Ernest Hemingway. When he found out . . . when the doctor told him he couldn't have sex life anymore, he killed himself. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He was a very big and rich author. Prabhupāda: This is the, I mean, important men. Gurukṛpā: That one Marwari, he spent eighteen lakhs of rupees. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurukṛpā: Marwari, who spent eighteen lakhs . Prabhupāda: I do not know eighteen lakhs , but I know that he went to Germany for medical operation and changing the gland with monkey's gland. Yes. He was eighty years old at that time. Devotee (3): The leaders are so infected. There was an article recently . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). That is already dictated by *Bhāgavatam* . These leaders, rascals, who are blind, and they are trying to lead other blind men. All of them are falling in the ditch. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the case of Mahārāja Veṇa there was some recourse for the brāhmaṇas . What can we do? *Prabhupāda: Yes, brāhmaṇas were controlling the kṣatriyas . They were obeying the instruction of brāhmaṇas . That is social function. The first*-class man will give instruction to the government, and the government will carry the order, "Whether people are actually doing this." Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya . And vaiśya will produce food grain and milk sufficiently. And the śūdras , they will help these three higher classes. That's all. This is social system. (break) The brāhmaṇas , they will be always engaged to make plan how people will be successful in the aim of life. And that will be executed through the kṣatriyas . And the vaiśyas will supply foodstuff. Food is also required. And good government is required, and nice direction is required. This is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. And śūdra , they have no brain; *they will abide by the orders of these higher sections, that's all. So our movement is creating first*-class Brāhmiṇs , and the kṣatriyas , if they abide by our instruction—our instruction means Kṛṣṇa's instruction—then everything will be nicely done. Sannyāsīs , they have begun to keep secretaries. Gurukṛpā: Yogi Bhajan. *Prabhupāda: So many. This tail, dog's tail. Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha or anything, the tail is this side. You may grease it as much as possible, but the whole tendency is sex, that's all, in different dresses only. The objective is sex. This is going on. Some of them are openly declaring that, "I am for sex," and some of them showbottle. But the objective is sex. This is the whole world. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha (SB 7.9.45). And these sannyāsīs like Rajneesh, they are advocating, "This is life—sex. By sex indulgence you get salvation." These brahma-kumārīs . Not brahmacārī but brahma-kumārī. Kumārīs are available very easily. And they keep. And the rich men, they are supplied with nice, beautiful kumārīs . They pay money. This is going on. Brahma-kumārī . They enjoy, and they invite the karmīs to enjoy and get money. Kumārī is there; money is there. That's all. Everywhere this is going on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This just came from Los Angeles along with some other things. They're having an International Yoga and Meditation conference in Chicago in June, and Rāmeśvara was wanting to know if we should send some of our preachers there, to try and have some kind of a booth or take part in it. Prabhupāda: If it is possible. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is sponsored by the Himalayan International Institute of Yoga Science and Philosophy, Swami Rama from the Himalayas. Prabhupāda: Bogus. He's a bogus. Then don't take part. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's many . . . it's costing fifteen dollars for people to get in. Prabhupāda: So we are not going to give. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most . . . I have looked over the people who are speaking. Most of them are from this society. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most of them are from this society. It seems what they've done, they've taken some of the big bhogīs in America like Satchidananda and others, and they've invited them, to draw bigger crowds. So they're taking this opportunity for money*-making. I think we'll probably sell books there, anyway. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'm sure that our devotees will sell books there. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can have a book stall. Gurukṛpā: But outside, though. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Somehow or another. Gurukṛpā: We used to do outside. *Prabhupāda: There is no use taking part in that meeting. Simply take a book stall: " Bhakti*-yoga books." Give a signboard, " Bhakti-yoga books." And give the picture of Dhruva Mahārāja, five-years-old boy, executing bhakti-yoga alone in the forest. We have got meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). That is real yoga . And Bhagavad-gītā , yoginām api . . . these ślokas, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā (BG 6.47). One who's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, he is first-class yogī . Give one picture of the devotees chanting in a very nice place, and give evidence, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā : "This, first-class yogī . Here is first-class yogī ." That will be our preaching. Dhruva Mahārāja is practicing yoga . There are many others. So the highest perfection is Rādhārāṇī, that simply crying, "Kṛṣṇa has gone to Mathurā, not coming back." That is the . . . the whole day and night crying. Who can perform this yoga ? So if you, if possible, draw pictures. Satchidananda, he is also a leader? He has? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Gurukṛpā: Yogi Bhajan. Prabhupāda: Yogi Bhajan also? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kriyananda Swami, Nada Brahmānanda from Rishikesh, Swami Ajaya, Ph.D., from Madison, Wisconsin. (laughter) It's a small college town in America. Yogi Bhajan. There's many others. Gurukṛpā: They have these names. These names are not like our names. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A lot of Indian doctors from Canada and India, America. Hari-śauri: There's one with a Japanese name as well. Prabhupāda: So you can give yogī import that, "Hare Kṛṣṇa is the greatest of all yoga systems." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Topmost yoga . *Prabhupāda: Yes. And quote from Bhagavad*-gītā . Show pictures. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You'd like to take your massage now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (break) (end) *Devotee (1): Yeah, he's floating around somewhere doing nonsense. Now he's eating meat. (Prabhupāda chuckles) And this one boy in Fiji wrote me a letter. His friend worked at the hotel, Guru Maharaj*-ji came and stayed there, and he was a waiter. For dinner, Guru Maharaj-ji had shrimp curry and then beer. Drinking, eating meat and having illicit sex. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's his līlā . Devotee (1): Complete nonsense. Devotee (2): How does he keep followers? Prabhupāda: So followers are like that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like guru , like celā . Devotee (2): It's a very cheap thing. Very much they're moving on the group spirit. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): It's just a personality cult, with no philosophy. Devotee (1): Social club. Gurukṛpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, for the abhiṣeka , do we require cow urine and cow dung and tail of cow? Is it . . . Prabhupāda: If available. Not? Devotee (1): Yes, we can get it. Gurukṛpa: It's available. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're feeling threatened by our kīrtana parties. Prabhupāda: Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said that some of the town councils are trying to pass laws against our chanting in the streets. Devotee (2): The Christians are behind it in Whangarei. Prabhupāda: So, can they pass such law? Devotee (2): I don't think so. We're having . . . some of our men are going to meet with the council the day after tomorrow at the meeting. They're open to our side. The reason is that the businessmen have complained. Some of the businessmen have complained. Prabhupāda: Not all of them. You take some signature from other businessmen. Devotee (2): Yes, all right. Prabhupāda: You present that. Devotee (2): Yes. The men who are going to speak are businessmen, devotees. One is an architect. Prabhupāda: Then he can organize so many signatures. Devotee (2): One is a restaurant owner, and one has a hairdressing salon. And they're going to speak . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone likes; that's a fact. Gurukṛpa: We gave the argument before that they say it is a disturbance, but there are so many cars and airplanes which are making disturbance. They should also be stopped. Devotee (2): Last week we wrote letters to the newspaper, and they published them, showing our view. And in Whangarei . . . it's another city, a hundred miles from here. It's near the farm, up north, and the devotees chant there. And the businessmen complained. And the devotees wrote a letter criticizing the materialistic businessmen, and that they didn't care for the people, only they wanted money. And they printed it this big in the newspaper, completely criticizing, and the people liked it. They put it in, everything, word for word what the devotees said. So it was good. Prabhupāda: So there is agitation against chanting, that is also good. Devotee (2): It means it's effective. Prabhupāda: Yes, "Hare Kṛṣṇa is bad." (laughs) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't want to be bothered with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't want to be bothered with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on with their hellish life. Prabhupāda: So we want that. Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa somehow or other. (devotees laugh) "We don't want to be bothered by Hare Kṛṣṇa," that means chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): Because our kīrtana party now, we have . . . we go on kīrtana , eighty men. We go two nights a week with eighty men. Huge kīrtana with five mṛdaṅgas and guitars, and we get huge crowd from the whole street. Prabhupāda: That will make you triumphant. Go on kīrtana . That is very nice. Kīrtana and book distribution. This is also kīrtana . Gurukṛpā: This is bṛhad mṛdaṅga . Prabhupāda: Yes. So do it enthusiastically. Keep yourself pure. Nobody will be able to do any harm to you. Kṛṣṇa will give you protection. So? (break) Devotee (2): Eight crores. Hari-śauri: Didn't he say eighty crores? Prabhupāda: One crore means ten million. Hari-śauri: Rupees. Prabhupāda: Such eight. Devotee (2): Eighty million rupees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): That's a million dollars. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eight million dollars. Prabhupāda: Now it will be tested how much money we have got. (Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa laughs) Gurukṛpā: Ghee is cheaper in New Zealand than in Australia. Prabhupāda: Anyway, first of all arrange for selling. Gurukṛpā: I've already sent off the letter. *Prabhupāda: And you can disvertise it from New Zealand or from Australia. There can be very peaceful condition of the whole world. Simply mismanaged by the rascal leaders. Otherwise, people can live very peacefully, eat sumptuously, save time, and there is no necessity of stopping the, I mean to say, bare necessities of life. There is arrangement for eating, sleeping, sex life also. But not like fools and rascals. Like sane man. But this modern civilization, it is insane, crazy civilization. There is a little pleasure in sex life—simply sex life, increase sex life, spoiling everything. That is crazy. Eating—eat anything, any nonsense thing, and become a hog. Sleeping—oḥ, there is no limit, twenty*-four-hours sleeping if it is possible. Go on, this is going on. Eating, sleeping, mating. And defense—and discover atomic weapon, this weapon, that weapon, and kill innocent persons, unnecessarily, defense. This is going on. *But everything can be used properly for peaceful condition, and when you become peaceful, no disturbance, then you can very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and your life becomes successful. This is our program. We don't want to stop anything. How it can be stopped? Whatever is the bare neces . . . just like we have taken sannyāsa . What is that? "Oh, we have no sex life only. Otherwise, we are also eating, we are also sleeping." So that is also stopped in good old age. In old age, if a person like me, at the age of eighty years, if I would have shopped for sex life, does it look very good? Young men, they are allowed. That's all right. But a young . . . old man is going to the club and spending for sex life so much money. Therefore younger generation, they're allowed gṛhastha life from twenty*-five years to fifty years. That's all. After that, stop sex life. Actually, they want to stop population. Then why it, sex, then? No, they'll have sex life, at the same time, no population, kill the children. What is that? Simply sinful life. They will suffer, continue to suffer. So we want to stop that suffering. These rascals, they do not understand. They think, "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is disturbing." A rascal civilization. So let us try our best. What can be done? You are also helping in this movement. So don't spoil the movement by manufacturing ideas. Don't do that. Go on in the standard way, keep yourself pure; *then movement is sure to be successful. But if you want to spoil it by whimsical, then what can be done? It will be spoiled. If you manufacture whims and disagree and fight amongst yourself, then it will be another edition of these so*-called movements. It will lose the spiritual strength. Always remember it. You cannot . . . now, actually, people are surprised: "What this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra has got power that it is changing so quickly?" And on the other hand, it is to be admitted, unless it has got power, how it is changing? So we have to keep that power. Don't make it an ordinary musical vibration. It is a different thing—spiritual. Although it seems like musical vibration, but it is spiritual, completely. mantrauśadhi-vaśa . Even, by mantra , the snakes can be charmed. So mantra is not ordinary sound vibration. So we have to keep the mantra in potency, potent, by offenseless chanting, by remaining pure. If you pollute the mantra , then it will lose its effect. Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (to other devotees) Today you'll be giving that lakṣmī in the morning? Because we can take our passports and go to the bank. Devotee (2): And you can change some more at the airport when you leave. Hari-śauri: You have to have your passport. Devotee (2): At the airport, yes. Devotee (1): At the bank. *Devotee (2): You have to bring the airplane ticket, too. (indistinct discussion of money matters) So concerning the temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I talked to some boys, and the one boy, Dhūmiya, he used to be in Australia, he made a fifteen*-foot-high Lord Caitanya. Do you remember at the Ratha-yātrā? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm. Devotee (2): And we're going to build a temple with nice domes, Indian style, and with sculpture like the elephant heads . . . Prabhupāda: Make in Vṛndāvana style. Devotee (2): Yes. I'll get pictures of the different . . . Prabhupāda: There is that big dome and . . . you have seen Vṛndāvana? Devotee (2): I have seen it just before it was finished, not since it was completed. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): But I've seen pictures. Prabhupāda: I think we have got pictures. Devotee (2): And the place where we're going to put it, you'll be able to see it for miles. It'll be a landmark. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee (2): You can see it for many miles. Prabhupāda: Not only one; *you hundreds of temples construct. Village to village, town to . . . at the same time, men. And it will revolutionize the whole rascal situation. At the present moment, it is rascal situation. They're simply satisfied by driving the motor . . . put*-put-put-put-put-put-put-put-put! (Prabhupāda makes the sound of a fast motor) They are thinking, "Oh, how highly I am situated." All crazy. But this has been taught to them that, "This is civilization. If you have got a motorcycle and you can come like the wild cat, (all laugh) then you are civilized." They are thinking how great civilized they are; *we are thinking how wild cat he is. And what is the difference between wild cat and running dog and this motorcycle, put*-put ? What is the difference? Devotee (2): Nothing. *Prabhupāda: And they're taking it highly civilized way of life. Where you are going? You cannot go beyond this earth. You attempted so much to go to the moon planet, you failed. And where you can go, put*-put-put-put ? You'll have to stay here. But that rascal does not understand. He thinks, "I am going very fast." Where you are going? You are destined to stay here. That he does not understand. Not only this put-put motorcycle, the put-put airplane also. They're also trying to go to this planet around, round. That sputnik, first sputnik, eighteen thousand miles, and they simply rounded over the world in one hour and twenty-five minutes. And where did you go? And when he's tired, then come down again. They cannot understand, these so-called scientists, that we cannot go in this way. There is higher authority. Why it will allow us to go anywhere? Just like the horse running fast, but within the racecourse. That's all. It cannot go beyond the racecourse. And similarly, however heroic expedition we may show, you are, what is called, baddha-jīva , conditioned. You cannot cross the condition. That is not possible. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate ( BG 3.27). A rascal, on account of his false prestige, he is thinking, "Oh, I am independent. I can do whatever I like." Vimūḍhātmā , foolish, rascal. Mūḍha , not— vimūḍhātmā , "especially the rascal, a special rascal." Ordinary rascal is better than the special rascal. (laughs) So all these scientists, philosophers and political leaders, they're all special rascal, they are. Devotee (2): Vimūḍha . Prabhupāda: Ordinary man, they're simply rascal, and these rascals are special rascals. *Gurukṛpā: Vimūḍhā nānupaśyanti paśyanti jñāna*-cakṣuṣaḥ (BG 15.10). Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm. So don't be vimūḍhas . Better remain mūḍha , not special rascal. (end) *Devotee (1): Yeah, he's floating around somewhere doing nonsense. Now he's eating meat. (Prabhupāda chuckles) And this one boy in Fiji wrote me a letter. His friend worked at the hotel, Guru Maharaj*-ji came and stayed there, and he was a waiter. For dinner, Guru Maharaj-ji had shrimp curry and then beer. Drinking, eating meat and having illicit sex. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's his līlā . Devotee (1): Complete nonsense. Devotee (2): How does he keep followers? Prabhupāda: So followers are like that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like guru , like celā . Devotee (2): It's a very cheap thing. Very much they're moving on the group spirit. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): It's just a personality cult, with no philosophy. Devotee (1): Social club. Gurukṛpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, for the abhiṣeka , do we require cow urine and cow dung and tail of cow? Is it . . . Prabhupāda: If available. Not? Devotee (1): Yes, we can get it. Gurukṛpa: It's available. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're feeling threatened by our kīrtana parties. Prabhupāda: Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said that some of the town councils are trying to pass laws against our chanting in the streets. Devotee (2): The Christians are behind it in Whangarei. Prabhupāda: So, can they pass such law? Devotee (2): I don't think so. We're having . . . some of our men are going to meet with the council the day after tomorrow at the meeting. They're open to our side. The reason is that the businessmen have complained. Some of the businessmen have complained. Prabhupāda: Not all of them. You take some signature from other businessmen. Devotee (2): Yes, all right. Prabhupāda: You present that. Devotee (2): Yes. The men who are going to speak are businessmen, devotees. One is an architect. Prabhupāda: Then he can organize so many signatures. Devotee (2): One is a restaurant owner, and one has a hairdressing salon. And they're going to speak . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone likes; that's a fact. Gurukṛpa: We gave the argument before that they say it is a disturbance, but there are so many cars and airplanes which are making disturbance. They should also be stopped. Devotee (2): Last week we wrote letters to the newspaper, and they published them, showing our view. And in Whangarei . . . it's another city, a hundred miles from here. It's near the farm, up north, and the devotees chant there. And the businessmen complained. And the devotees wrote a letter criticizing the materialistic businessmen, and that they didn't care for the people, only they wanted money. And they printed it this big in the newspaper, completely criticizing, and the people liked it. They put it in, everything, word for word what the devotees said. So it was good. Prabhupāda: So there is agitation against chanting, that is also good. Devotee (2): It means it's effective. Prabhupāda: Yes, "Hare Kṛṣṇa is bad." (laughs) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't want to be bothered with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't want to be bothered with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on with their hellish life. Prabhupāda: So we want that. Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa somehow or other. (devotees laugh) "We don't want to be bothered by Hare Kṛṣṇa," that means chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): Because our kīrtana party now, we have . . . we go on kīrtana , eighty men. We go two nights a week with eighty men. Huge kīrtana with five mṛdaṅgas and guitars, and we get huge crowd from the whole street. Prabhupāda: That will make you triumphant. Go on kīrtana . That is very nice. Kīrtana and book distribution. This is also kīrtana . Gurukṛpā: This is bṛhad mṛdaṅga . Prabhupāda: Yes. So do it enthusiastically. Keep yourself pure. Nobody will be able to do any harm to you. Kṛṣṇa will give you protection. So? (break) Devotee (2): Eight crores. Hari-śauri: Didn't he say eighty crores? Prabhupāda: One crore means ten million. Hari-śauri: Rupees. Prabhupāda: Such eight. Devotee (2): Eighty million rupees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): That's a million dollars. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eight million dollars. Prabhupāda: Now it will be tested how much money we have got. (Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa laughs) Gurukṛpā: Ghee is cheaper in New Zealand than in Australia. Prabhupāda: Anyway, first of all arrange for selling. Gurukṛpā: I've already sent off the letter. *Prabhupāda: And you can disvertise it from New Zealand or from Australia. There can be very peaceful condition of the whole world. Simply mismanaged by the rascal leaders. Otherwise, people can live very peacefully, eat sumptuously, save time, and there is no necessity of stopping the, I mean to say, bare necessities of life. There is arrangement for eating, sleeping, sex life also. But not like fools and rascals. Like sane man. But this modern civilization, it is insane, crazy civilization. There is a little pleasure in sex life—simply sex life, increase sex life, spoiling everything. That is crazy. Eating—eat anything, any nonsense thing, and become a hog. Sleeping—oḥ, there is no limit, twenty*-four-hours sleeping if it is possible. Go on, this is going on. Eating, sleeping, mating. And defense—and discover atomic weapon, this weapon, that weapon, and kill innocent persons, unnecessarily, defense. This is going on. *But everything can be used properly for peaceful condition, and when you become peaceful, no disturbance, then you can very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and your life becomes successful. This is our program. We don't want to stop anything. How it can be stopped? Whatever is the bare neces . . . just like we have taken sannyāsa . What is that? "Oh, we have no sex life only. Otherwise, we are also eating, we are also sleeping." So that is also stopped in good old age. In old age, if a person like me, at the age of eighty years, if I would have shopped for sex life, does it look very good? Young men, they are allowed. That's all right. But a young . . . old man is going to the club and spending for sex life so much money. Therefore younger generation, they're allowed gṛhastha life from twenty*-five years to fifty years. That's all. After that, stop sex life. Actually, they want to stop population. Then why it, sex, then? No, they'll have sex life, at the same time, no population, kill the children. What is that? Simply sinful life. They will suffer, continue to suffer. So we want to stop that suffering. These rascals, they do not understand. They think, "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is disturbing." A rascal civilization. So let us try our best. What can be done? You are also helping in this movement. So don't spoil the movement by manufacturing ideas. Don't do that. Go on in the standard way, keep yourself pure; *then movement is sure to be successful. But if you want to spoil it by whimsical, then what can be done? It will be spoiled. If you manufacture whims and disagree and fight amongst yourself, then it will be another edition of these so*-called movements. It will lose the spiritual strength. Always remember it. You cannot . . . now, actually, people are surprised: "What this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra has got power that it is changing so quickly?" And on the other hand, it is to be admitted, unless it has got power, how it is changing? So we have to keep that power. Don't make it an ordinary musical vibration. It is a different thing—spiritual. Although it seems like musical vibration, but it is spiritual, completely. mantrauśadhi-vaśa . Even, by mantra , the snakes can be charmed. So mantra is not ordinary sound vibration. So we have to keep the mantra in potency, potent, by offenseless chanting, by remaining pure. If you pollute the mantra , then it will lose its effect. Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (to other devotees) Today you'll be giving that lakṣmī in the morning? Because we can take our passports and go to the bank. Devotee (2): And you can change some more at the airport when you leave. Hari-śauri: You have to have your passport. Devotee (2): At the airport, yes. Devotee (1): At the bank. *Devotee (2): You have to bring the airplane ticket, too. (indistinct discussion of money matters) So concerning the temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I talked to some boys, and the one boy, Dhūmiya, he used to be in Australia, he made a fifteen*-foot-high Lord Caitanya. Do you remember at the Ratha-yātrā? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm. Devotee (2): And we're going to build a temple with nice domes, Indian style, and with sculpture like the elephant heads . . . Prabhupāda: Make in Vṛndāvana style. Devotee (2): Yes. I'll get pictures of the different . . . Prabhupāda: There is that big dome and . . . you have seen Vṛndāvana? Devotee (2): I have seen it just before it was finished, not since it was completed. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): But I've seen pictures. Prabhupāda: I think we have got pictures. Devotee (2): And the place where we're going to put it, you'll be able to see it for miles. It'll be a landmark. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee (2): You can see it for many miles. Prabhupāda: Not only one; *you hundreds of temples construct. Village to village, town to . . . at the same time, men. And it will revolutionize the whole rascal situation. At the present moment, it is rascal situation. They're simply satisfied by driving the motor . . . put*-put-put-put-put-put-put-put-put! (Prabhupāda makes the sound of a fast motor) They are thinking, "Oh, how highly I am situated." All crazy. But this has been taught to them that, "This is civilization. If you have got a motorcycle and you can come like the wild cat, (all laugh) then you are civilized." They are thinking how great civilized they are; *we are thinking how wild cat he is. And what is the difference between wild cat and running dog and this motorcycle, put*-put ? What is the difference? Devotee (2): Nothing. *Prabhupāda: And they're taking it highly civilized way of life. Where you are going? You cannot go beyond this earth. You attempted so much to go to the moon planet, you failed. And where you can go, put*-put-put-put ? You'll have to stay here. But that rascal does not understand. He thinks, "I am going very fast." Where you are going? You are destined to stay here. That he does not understand. Not only this put-put motorcycle, the put-put airplane also. They're also trying to go to this planet around, round. That sputnik, first sputnik, eighteen thousand miles, and they simply rounded over the world in one hour and twenty-five minutes. And where did you go? And when he's tired, then come down again. They cannot understand, these so-called scientists, that we cannot go in this way. There is higher authority. Why it will allow us to go anywhere? Just like the horse running fast, but within the racecourse. That's all. It cannot go beyond the racecourse. And similarly, however heroic expedition we may show, you are, what is called, baddha-jīva , conditioned. You cannot cross the condition. That is not possible. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate ( BG 3.27). A rascal, on account of his false prestige, he is thinking, "Oh, I am independent. I can do whatever I like." Vimūḍhātmā , foolish, rascal. Mūḍha , not— vimūḍhātmā , "especially the rascal, a special rascal." Ordinary rascal is better than the special rascal. (laughs) So all these scientists, philosophers and political leaders, they're all special rascal, they are. Devotee (2): Vimūḍha . Prabhupāda: Ordinary man, they're simply rascal, and these rascals are special rascals. *Gurukṛpā: Vimūḍhā nānupaśyanti paśyanti jñāna*-cakṣuṣaḥ (BG 15.10). Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm. So don't be vimūḍhas . Better remain mūḍha , not special rascal. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . therefore he very intelligently appointed Kṛṣṇa as his spiritual master. Because everyone is in perplexity about the problem of life. So this very thing happened to Arjuna, and he wanted to go to spiritual master for solution. And the supreme spiritual master was present before him; *therefore he submitted: śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam ( BG 2.7). Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ . . . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma*-saṁmūḍha-cetāḥ, yac chreyaḥ syān niścitaṁ brūhi tan me . Prabhupāda: Yac chreyaḥ syāt . . . yac chreyaḥ syāt tat brūhi me niścitam. So the spiritual master's duty is how to benefit the disciple, śreyaḥ . What is the translation? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me." *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā . So because he accepted discipleship, so He immediately chastised him, that "You rascal, you are talking like a very learned man, but you are on the platform of bodily conception of life, the platform of the animals." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). Anyone who accepts this body as self, he's animal. He's not even a human being. So the whole world is on this bodily concept of life. That is going on, "American," "European," "Hindu," "Muslim," "black," "white," this, that. They do not know what is education. That is the first education, that "You rascal, you are not this body. You are within the body." So who understands this? And they're declaring that "We are student of Bhagavad-gītā . We have studied Bhagavad-gītā ." Hmm? Even Gandhi, he takes photograph with Bhagavad-gītā , but his fighting is for nationalism. The others are doing that. So what is the use of taking Bhagavad-gītā ? The Pakistanis are also doing that. But you have taken Bhagavad-gītā , you are doing the same work. So what is your credit? This is going on. So nobody is learning Bhagavad-gītā . It is first time that we are teaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Otherwise, everyone is misled. The subject matter is that the soul is different from this body. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The karmīs will argue that "I am not ready to hear this yet." Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The karmīs will argue, "I am not ready to hear this yet." Many people, they come and they hear this philosophy, they say: "Very nice. But I am not ready for it yet." *Prabhupāda: But why you have come here, to hear Bhagavad*-gītā ? Why you have come? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Generally, they come to take nice prasādam . *Prabhupāda: All right, that is also kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. Prasādam means we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa; *then it is prasādam . So you have not come, but you have to come to take prasādam . This, it has got connection with Kṛṣṇa. So therefore we welcome you that at least for eating, you are coming to Kṛṣṇa. Gradually you'll understand Kṛṣṇa, by eating only. Kṛṣṇa is not so easy to be understood, but we are giving you facility to eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam so that one day you can understand Kṛṣṇa, this is the policy. Actually, that is the policy. We are not poor-feeding. That is not our philosophy, like Vivekananda, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. No, we are not after that. We are giving you prasādam . And that is fact, that by eating, eating, eating, eating, you one day will become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Simply by eating. Because you are so dull, you cannot understand the philosophy. You know the belly like the animals. So therefore we are giving facility, 'All right, fill up your belly, fill up your belly, and you'll be infected'. As you take foodstuff from a infected area, you become infected with some disease, so this is Kṛṣṇa infected, prasādam . You take it, and one day you'll be diseased with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and that is a fact. Somehow or other let him come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. He'll be benefited. Somehow or other, let him come to the light. May be dim light or very big light. Light is light. So if anyone understands that there is a soul which is conducting the business of this body, then he can very easily understand that there is a Supersoul who is conducting the business of the whole material manifested world. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). If he's convinced this body is useless, a lump of matter only, but the soul is the prime factor, similarly, he'll very easily understand that there is huge, gigantic material body of earth, water, air, fire, sky, they are working so wonderfully on account of the Supersoul. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā : athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna . Find out this verse. Gurukṛpā: Chapter 10, verse forty . . . verse 42. Prabhupāda: Athavā bahunaitena . The Twelfth Chapter. Gurukṛpā: Chapter 10, verse 42. No? (devotee takes a long time to find verse) Prabhupāda: One should practice to open this very quickly. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe." Prabhupāda: Read it carefully. As the small soul has entered . . . dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). This is also a small universe. The same elements are working, but the soul is the prime factor. Similarly, this gigantic body. Athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena . . . viṣṭabhya aham idaṁ kṛtsnam. "The kṛtsnam , the total material energy, millions of universes like that, that is being maintained by Me because I have entered in it in My fragmental portion." Same principle. As I, the individual soul, I am . . . because I have entered this body, the body is working so nicely. It looks beautiful; *it looks fresh. It is machine. The machine is working very nicely so long the pilot or the driver is there. Similarly, where is the difficulty to understand this universal affair? If we accept the same principle that, "I am a small fragmental portion of Kṛṣṇa. I have entered this body. This body is working so nicely. Similarly, because Kṛṣṇa has entered as Mahā*-Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, therefore it is working." Gurukṛpā: Kṛṣṇa also says, gām āviśya ca bhūtāni (BG 15.13). *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many verses. Another verse is mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ (BG 9.10). "The prakṛti is not important. Material energy is not important. My supervision is important." Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ (BS 5.52). The sun is rising and setting by whose order? Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam aham . . . this is to be understood. And if one understands that because the soul is there within the body, therefore the body is working so wonderfully, then he can very easily understand there must be a soul of this universe. How he can deny it? How he can say that it is working automatically? There is no such experience, working automatically. I have given several times the example: the 747, wonderful aeroplane machine, but that is not important. The important is the pilot who is pushing the button and it is, in such big sky, it will stay balanced; *in balance it is flying in six*-hundred-miles speed, onh-onh-onh-onhh (imitates sound of plane engine). And as soon a little . . . finished. So it is a fact. Why the security checking? Because sometimes these, what is that, hi . . . hi . . .? Devotee: Highjackers. Prabhupāda: Highjacks, they attack the pilot. They're not attacking the passengers. (break) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . therefore he very intelligently appointed Kṛṣṇa as his spiritual master. Because everyone is in perplexity about the problem of life. So this very thing happened to Arjuna, and he wanted to go to spiritual master for solution. And the supreme spiritual master was present before him; *therefore he submitted: śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam ( BG 2.7). Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ . . . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma*-saṁmūḍha-cetāḥ, yac chreyaḥ syān niścitaṁ brūhi tan me . Prabhupāda: Yac chreyaḥ syāt . . . yac chreyaḥ syāt tat brūhi me niścitam. So the spiritual master's duty is how to benefit the disciple, śreyaḥ . What is the translation? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me." *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā . So because he accepted discipleship, so He immediately chastised him, that "You rascal, you are talking like a very learned man, but you are on the platform of bodily conception of life, the platform of the animals." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). Anyone who accepts this body as self, he's animal. He's not even a human being. So the whole world is on this bodily concept of life. That is going on, "American," "European," "Hindu," "Muslim," "black," "white," this, that. They do not know what is education. That is the first education, that "You rascal, you are not this body. You are within the body." So who understands this? And they're declaring that "We are student of Bhagavad-gītā . We have studied Bhagavad-gītā ." Hmm? Even Gandhi, he takes photograph with Bhagavad-gītā , but his fighting is for nationalism. The others are doing that. So what is the use of taking Bhagavad-gītā ? The Pakistanis are also doing that. But you have taken Bhagavad-gītā , you are doing the same work. So what is your credit? This is going on. So nobody is learning Bhagavad-gītā . It is first time that we are teaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Otherwise, everyone is misled. The subject matter is that the soul is different from this body. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The karmīs will argue that "I am not ready to hear this yet." Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The karmīs will argue, "I am not ready to hear this yet." Many people, they come and they hear this philosophy, they say: "Very nice. But I am not ready for it yet." *Prabhupāda: But why you have come here, to hear Bhagavad*-gītā ? Why you have come? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Generally, they come to take nice prasādam . *Prabhupāda: All right, that is also kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. Prasādam means we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa; *then it is prasādam . So you have not come, but you have to come to take prasādam . This, it has got connection with Kṛṣṇa. So therefore we welcome you that at least for eating, you are coming to Kṛṣṇa. Gradually you'll understand Kṛṣṇa, by eating only. Kṛṣṇa is not so easy to be understood, but we are giving you facility to eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam so that one day you can understand Kṛṣṇa, this is the policy. Actually, that is the policy. We are not poor-feeding. That is not our philosophy, like Vivekananda, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. No, we are not after that. We are giving you prasādam . And that is fact, that by eating, eating, eating, eating, you one day will become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Simply by eating. Because you are so dull, you cannot understand the philosophy. You know the belly like the animals. So therefore we are giving facility, 'All right, fill up your belly, fill up your belly, and you'll be infected'. As you take foodstuff from a infected area, you become infected with some disease, so this is Kṛṣṇa infected, prasādam . You take it, and one day you'll be diseased with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and that is a fact. Somehow or other let him come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. He'll be benefited. Somehow or other, let him come to the light. May be dim light or very big light. Light is light. So if anyone understands that there is a soul which is conducting the business of this body, then he can very easily understand that there is a Supersoul who is conducting the business of the whole material manifested world. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). If he's convinced this body is useless, a lump of matter only, but the soul is the prime factor, similarly, he'll very easily understand that there is huge, gigantic material body of earth, water, air, fire, sky, they are working so wonderfully on account of the Supersoul. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā : athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna . Find out this verse. Gurukṛpā: Chapter 10, verse forty . . . verse 42. Prabhupāda: Athavā bahunaitena . The Twelfth Chapter. Gurukṛpā: Chapter 10, verse 42. No? (devotee takes a long time to find verse) Prabhupāda: One should practice to open this very quickly. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe." Prabhupāda: Read it carefully. As the small soul has entered . . . dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). This is also a small universe. The same elements are working, but the soul is the prime factor. Similarly, this gigantic body. Athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena . . . viṣṭabhya aham idaṁ kṛtsnam. "The kṛtsnam , the total material energy, millions of universes like that, that is being maintained by Me because I have entered in it in My fragmental portion." Same principle. As I, the individual soul, I am . . . because I have entered this body, the body is working so nicely. It looks beautiful; *it looks fresh. It is machine. The machine is working very nicely so long the pilot or the driver is there. Similarly, where is the difficulty to understand this universal affair? If we accept the same principle that, "I am a small fragmental portion of Kṛṣṇa. I have entered this body. This body is working so nicely. Similarly, because Kṛṣṇa has entered as Mahā*-Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, therefore it is working." Gurukṛpā: Kṛṣṇa also says, gām āviśya ca bhūtāni (BG 15.13). *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many verses. Another verse is mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ (BG 9.10). "The prakṛti is not important. Material energy is not important. My supervision is important." Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ (BS 5.52). The sun is rising and setting by whose order? Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam aham . . . this is to be understood. And if one understands that because the soul is there within the body, therefore the body is working so wonderfully, then he can very easily understand there must be a soul of this universe. How he can deny it? How he can say that it is working automatically? There is no such experience, working automatically. I have given several times the example: the 747, wonderful aeroplane machine, but that is not important. The important is the pilot who is pushing the button and it is, in such big sky, it will stay balanced; *in balance it is flying in six*-hundred-miles speed, onh-onh-onh-onhh (imitates sound of plane engine). And as soon a little . . . finished. So it is a fact. Why the security checking? Because sometimes these, what is that, hi . . . hi . . .? Devotee: Highjackers. Prabhupāda: Highjacks, they attack the pilot. They're not attacking the passengers. (break) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . the Lord then said, uska jabāb " Bhagavān diyā ". This . . . (break) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke ( BG 15.7). Gurukṛpā: "The living entities in this conditional world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind." *Prabhupāda: So with this instrument he's manipulating this machine, as exactly the pilot, with so many electronics, machine, he's working the flying of the plane. Where is the difficulty to understand? And this is . . . body is a machine. Bhrāmayan sarva*-bhū . . . (BG 18.61). Bhrāmayan , wandering. The aeroplane is wandering. This machine is wandering. It is also going, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ, sometimes up, sometimes down. Huh? Find out this. (discussion as devotees look for verse) Same aeroplane, going up and down. Two wings, this hand, like this. Gurukṛpā: "Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds." *Prabhupāda: So same thing: if the pilot is not expert, then goes down to the lowest, finished. Adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ . If the pilot is third class, instead of going up, he goes down, and everything is spoiled. So everything on the pilot. The machine is not important. The machine can go up if the pilot knows how to do it. And the machine can go down. Actually, it is happening. This landing point is very dangerous. If the pilot cannot handle very nicely, immediately smashed. The crash takes place while going up and coming down, generally. That is due to mismanagement of the pilot. When in the sky it is regular speed and balance, it is going nicely. There is no crisis. All crisis take place while coming down and going up, leaving the land and coming the land. I have seen sometimes, they clap as soon as they . . . (Prabhupāda claps his hands) (laughter) "The danger is over." So ūrdhvam and adhaḥ. Madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ. So in this way, you have to place the subject matter, that the living entity, the soul, is the important thing within this body. Because he's struggling. On account of his ignorance, he's struggling. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). This is his position. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned earlier that not only we have to find out who is the speaker, but who is the proper person to hear the subject matter. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If somebody is interested to know what is the important thing, then he can understand this. And if he's animal, simply eating, sleeping, mating, what he will understand? Animal is not interested to know how the world is going on. He gets his food and sex. That's all. That is animal propensity. And as soon as he comes to the human platform, then inquisitive: " Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa*-traya ," Sanātana Gosvāmī. He's not interested, "How I shall develop my economic position?" He has left already a very high-grade economic position. He's not interested. He's interested, " Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya (CC Madhya 20.102), actually what is my position? Why I am suffering in this material atmosphere?" That is human life. Gurukṛpā: Arjuna asks also many questions. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata. Kārpaṇya-doṣa (BG 2.7). "It was my duty to understand myself, and I am thinking of my these nonsense relatives—my grandfather, my son. What is this? I know that. What I can do by thinking about them? It may be they have come to war. But suppose they would have died naturally—what could I do? So why I am perplexed with these things? I know the defect. I cannot cause their death or birth or existence. It is beyond my jurisdiction. And still, I am anxious—if I kill them, then what would happen? What would happen?" "You kill or not kill, they'll be killed—today or tomorrow." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ (BG 2.11). A learned man knows that the body will be finished, the bodily action, today or tomorrow. So what is to lament after this body? Lamentation is that the person within the body, whether he's going to hell or heaven. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti or tamo gacchanti . That is real concern. Body will be finished, today or tomorrow or after a hundred years. Who can protect it? But one should be interested with the owner of the body, where he is going, what is his next position. And that is clearly stated: adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). So you are interested to go up or down or remain in the same status. There are three status: up, down and the same. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: General mass of people think that life is finished with this body. They're unaware of up or down . . . *Prabhupāda: Therefore . . . therefore, they're rascals. And for the rascals, the Bhagavad*-gītā teaching is there. Learn! They are giving the stress on the body that, "The body is finished, everything finished." They do not know beyond the body. But the real knowledge begins, "No, you are beyond this body." That is real knowledge. That is the beginning of knowledge. Any other knowledge except this, that is ignorance; that is not knowledge. They are accepting ignorance as knowledge. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is the defect. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so essential. They are accepting ignorance as knowledge. Darwin's theory, it is simply speculation on ignorance, and it has been taken as knowledge. Freud's philosophy is the business of the hogs and dogs, and it has been taken as philosophy. Even the hogs and dogs know how to enjoy sex life. And they are . . . on account of sex life, they have written a philosophy. Is that philosophy? Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Find out. The Thirteenth Chapter. Hmm? (discussion as devotees look for verse) Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another line? Prabhupāda: Find out amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntiḥ (BG 13.8), Thirteenth Chapter. *Gurukṛpā: Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam . Prabhupāda: Anyathā . These rascals, they're in ajñānam , dealing with sex life, dealing with the body as their philosophy, science. Dealing with the body and dealing with sex life is the animal business, and they are passing on as philosopher, scientist. This is their position, the whole world. So how much Kṛṣṇa consciousness is important, just imagine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The goal of knowledge is not there. Prabhupāda: They do not know. And animals . . . therefore they are animals. What the dogs will understand? When there is one lady dog, one dozen dog will come, smelling the best part of the body. This is their philosophy. So Freud is that: best part of the body, he's writing philosophy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Books and books. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Just see. This is the position. How low taste—hogs' and pigs' business, and write philosophy. His books are selling like anything. (pause) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if someone can understand that they're not this body, then immediately he should be able to understand that there's a Supersoul. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already told just now. Therefore it is very essential to understand. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the approach used by Kṛṣṇa is essential for any person who wants to understand the Supersoul? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Someone in material consciousness cannot understand God? So then what of all these religions, for example Muslim and Christian religion? Generally speaking, they don't even accept the existence of soul. Prabhupāda: Therefore they're not religion. They're cheating. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (aside to Hari-śauri) Ice box. Prabhupāda: This is not religion, this is cheating. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So simply they're talking about God? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this? Hari-śauri: This is ḍāb juice, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, you can keep that. Simply . . . actually, there is no religion. In the name of religion, some farce is going on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. You've said in the past, "Devil citing scripture." *Prabhupāda: Yes. They're eating meat means they have no even human sense. What is that religion? They have no even sense that, "I am cutting throat of one poor animal under my protection. If somebody cuts my throat, how much I am unhappy? And I'm doing the same business, and I'm human being? How can I call myself a human? I have no sense even of compassion." Cats and dogs are passing on as religionists. Some hogs and pigs are going on as philosopher. And other animals is going as scientist, Darwin. They're animals only—cats and dogs. They are the leader of the society. How you can expect any benefit from them? The leaders themselves are cats and dogs, pigs. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). These leaders, they are saṁstutaḥ , they are very much worshiped. By whom? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ . By the dogs, by the pigs, by the . . . śva-viḍ-varāha , camel, and by the ass. Because these particular names, I have explained in the Bhāgavata . So suppose one man has become lion, and he's praised by dogs, camels, asses and pigs. Naturally, they will praise, "Oh, sir, you are the king." Does it mean he's king? He's animal. So it is going on. They are electing a big animal as president. And when he begins to eat, animal, big animal, then they protest, "Oh, now he's not proper president. Get him down, get him down." But why you sent him? "Because we are pigs. We have no other knowledge. We another . . . appoint another big pig as our president." *So everything is explained in the Vedic literature. If you can present them properly, it will act. The voters are śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara. And the president is another big animal. That's all. This is transaction of animal kingdom. A lion is the king of some asses, pigs, dogs and hogs. What business you can expect there? This is their real picture. One who is a human being, he's seeing that how the animals are enjoying by voting and electing president. But they are thinking, "We are busy in a very great business. We are electing president." (laughter) This is going on. (break) . . . and you say that these rascal pigs, hogs, they elected president, and this president will eat them, and they will understand what kind of president they have elected. This thing is happening in the most advanced country of USA, and what to speak of other animal kingdoms. Even the topmost state at the present moment, there also is happening the same thing. And what to speak of other small states. *Gurukṛpā: If bhakti*-yoga is the . . . one can only understand Kṛṣṇa through bhakti-yoga , why did Kṛṣṇa bother to explain karma-yoga and jñāna-yoga through so many . . . *Prabhupāda: Because there are third*-class men, fourth-class men. They cannot understand bhakti-yoga immediately. But at last He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), if you are intelligent. Sarva-guhyatam . "Real knowledge is here." Sarva-guhyatamam . But He's proposing at last, "If by understanding all other ways, if he has come to know what is the actual knowledge . . ." that is the most confidential knowledge. That is not for everyone. How one can give up karma-yoga , jñāna-yoga , dhyāna-yoga ? They cannot. But Kṛṣṇa says, "This is the most confidential. If you accept this, then it is to be understood you have knowledge." It is not for everyone. Find out this verse. Sixty-three, Eighteenth Chapter, I think. So take these notes, take these books and preach. You have taken all, sannyāsa . You preach. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you . . ." Prabhupāda: It is to be spoken to the most confidential person. "You are My dear friend; I am talking." Other rascals will not understand. It is especially for Arjuna, not for the common man. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ". . . I am speaking to you this most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit." Prabhupāda: "That is special friendship and special love; so I give you this. Keep it confidential." This is real. Other rascals will not value this. They will protest, "Huh? Why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa?" Gurukṛpā: So what is that confidential? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). "So we have spoken so many other things for other rascals. But you are My friend, very intimate. I tell you, this is real fact." So fact is fact. If you take earlier or later, that is different thing. You have to come. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). One has to take many births before coming to this understanding. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . So everyone is not mahātmā even, what to speak of sudurlabhaḥ . (laughs) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . the Lord then said, uska jabāb " Bhagavān diyā ". This . . . (break) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke ( BG 15.7). Gurukṛpā: "The living entities in this conditional world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind." *Prabhupāda: So with this instrument he's manipulating this machine, as exactly the pilot, with so many electronics, machine, he's working the flying of the plane. Where is the difficulty to understand? And this is . . . body is a machine. Bhrāmayan sarva*-bhū . . . (BG 18.61). Bhrāmayan , wandering. The aeroplane is wandering. This machine is wandering. It is also going, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ, sometimes up, sometimes down. Huh? Find out this. (discussion as devotees look for verse) Same aeroplane, going up and down. Two wings, this hand, like this. Gurukṛpā: "Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds." *Prabhupāda: So same thing: if the pilot is not expert, then goes down to the lowest, finished. Adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ . If the pilot is third class, instead of going up, he goes down, and everything is spoiled. So everything on the pilot. The machine is not important. The machine can go up if the pilot knows how to do it. And the machine can go down. Actually, it is happening. This landing point is very dangerous. If the pilot cannot handle very nicely, immediately smashed. The crash takes place while going up and coming down, generally. That is due to mismanagement of the pilot. When in the sky it is regular speed and balance, it is going nicely. There is no crisis. All crisis take place while coming down and going up, leaving the land and coming the land. I have seen sometimes, they clap as soon as they . . . (Prabhupāda claps his hands) (laughter) "The danger is over." So ūrdhvam and adhaḥ. Madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ. So in this way, you have to place the subject matter, that the living entity, the soul, is the important thing within this body. Because he's struggling. On account of his ignorance, he's struggling. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). This is his position. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned earlier that not only we have to find out who is the speaker, but who is the proper person to hear the subject matter. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If somebody is interested to know what is the important thing, then he can understand this. And if he's animal, simply eating, sleeping, mating, what he will understand? Animal is not interested to know how the world is going on. He gets his food and sex. That's all. That is animal propensity. And as soon as he comes to the human platform, then inquisitive: " Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa*-traya ," Sanātana Gosvāmī. He's not interested, "How I shall develop my economic position?" He has left already a very high-grade economic position. He's not interested. He's interested, " Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya (CC Madhya 20.102), actually what is my position? Why I am suffering in this material atmosphere?" That is human life. Gurukṛpā: Arjuna asks also many questions. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata. Kārpaṇya-doṣa (BG 2.7). "It was my duty to understand myself, and I am thinking of my these nonsense relatives—my grandfather, my son. What is this? I know that. What I can do by thinking about them? It may be they have come to war. But suppose they would have died naturally—what could I do? So why I am perplexed with these things? I know the defect. I cannot cause their death or birth or existence. It is beyond my jurisdiction. And still, I am anxious—if I kill them, then what would happen? What would happen?" "You kill or not kill, they'll be killed—today or tomorrow." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ (BG 2.11). A learned man knows that the body will be finished, the bodily action, today or tomorrow. So what is to lament after this body? Lamentation is that the person within the body, whether he's going to hell or heaven. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti or tamo gacchanti . That is real concern. Body will be finished, today or tomorrow or after a hundred years. Who can protect it? But one should be interested with the owner of the body, where he is going, what is his next position. And that is clearly stated: adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). So you are interested to go up or down or remain in the same status. There are three status: up, down and the same. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: General mass of people think that life is finished with this body. They're unaware of up or down . . . *Prabhupāda: Therefore . . . therefore, they're rascals. And for the rascals, the Bhagavad*-gītā teaching is there. Learn! They are giving the stress on the body that, "The body is finished, everything finished." They do not know beyond the body. But the real knowledge begins, "No, you are beyond this body." That is real knowledge. That is the beginning of knowledge. Any other knowledge except this, that is ignorance; that is not knowledge. They are accepting ignorance as knowledge. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is the defect. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so essential. They are accepting ignorance as knowledge. Darwin's theory, it is simply speculation on ignorance, and it has been taken as knowledge. Freud's philosophy is the business of the hogs and dogs, and it has been taken as philosophy. Even the hogs and dogs know how to enjoy sex life. And they are . . . on account of sex life, they have written a philosophy. Is that philosophy? Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Find out. The Thirteenth Chapter. Hmm? (discussion as devotees look for verse) Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another line? Prabhupāda: Find out amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntiḥ (BG 13.8), Thirteenth Chapter. *Gurukṛpā: Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam . Prabhupāda: Anyathā . These rascals, they're in ajñānam , dealing with sex life, dealing with the body as their philosophy, science. Dealing with the body and dealing with sex life is the animal business, and they are passing on as philosopher, scientist. This is their position, the whole world. So how much Kṛṣṇa consciousness is important, just imagine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The goal of knowledge is not there. Prabhupāda: They do not know. And animals . . . therefore they are animals. What the dogs will understand? When there is one lady dog, one dozen dog will come, smelling the best part of the body. This is their philosophy. So Freud is that: best part of the body, he's writing philosophy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Books and books. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Just see. This is the position. How low taste—hogs' and pigs' business, and write philosophy. His books are selling like anything. (pause) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if someone can understand that they're not this body, then immediately he should be able to understand that there's a Supersoul. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already told just now. Therefore it is very essential to understand. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the approach used by Kṛṣṇa is essential for any person who wants to understand the Supersoul? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Someone in material consciousness cannot understand God? So then what of all these religions, for example Muslim and Christian religion? Generally speaking, they don't even accept the existence of soul. Prabhupāda: Therefore they're not religion. They're cheating. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (aside to Hari-śauri) Ice box. Prabhupāda: This is not religion, this is cheating. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So simply they're talking about God? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this? Hari-śauri: This is ḍāb juice, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, you can keep that. Simply . . . actually, there is no religion. In the name of religion, some farce is going on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. You've said in the past, "Devil citing scripture." *Prabhupāda: Yes. They're eating meat means they have no even human sense. What is that religion? They have no even sense that, "I am cutting throat of one poor animal under my protection. If somebody cuts my throat, how much I am unhappy? And I'm doing the same business, and I'm human being? How can I call myself a human? I have no sense even of compassion." Cats and dogs are passing on as religionists. Some hogs and pigs are going on as philosopher. And other animals is going as scientist, Darwin. They're animals only—cats and dogs. They are the leader of the society. How you can expect any benefit from them? The leaders themselves are cats and dogs, pigs. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). These leaders, they are saṁstutaḥ , they are very much worshiped. By whom? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ . By the dogs, by the pigs, by the . . . śva-viḍ-varāha , camel, and by the ass. Because these particular names, I have explained in the Bhāgavata . So suppose one man has become lion, and he's praised by dogs, camels, asses and pigs. Naturally, they will praise, "Oh, sir, you are the king." Does it mean he's king? He's animal. So it is going on. They are electing a big animal as president. And when he begins to eat, animal, big animal, then they protest, "Oh, now he's not proper president. Get him down, get him down." But why you sent him? "Because we are pigs. We have no other knowledge. We another . . . appoint another big pig as our president." *So everything is explained in the Vedic literature. If you can present them properly, it will act. The voters are śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara. And the president is another big animal. That's all. This is transaction of animal kingdom. A lion is the king of some asses, pigs, dogs and hogs. What business you can expect there? This is their real picture. One who is a human being, he's seeing that how the animals are enjoying by voting and electing president. But they are thinking, "We are busy in a very great business. We are electing president." (laughter) This is going on. (break) . . . and you say that these rascal pigs, hogs, they elected president, and this president will eat them, and they will understand what kind of president they have elected. This thing is happening in the most advanced country of USA, and what to speak of other animal kingdoms. Even the topmost state at the present moment, there also is happening the same thing. And what to speak of other small states. *Gurukṛpā: If bhakti*-yoga is the . . . one can only understand Kṛṣṇa through bhakti-yoga , why did Kṛṣṇa bother to explain karma-yoga and jñāna-yoga through so many . . . *Prabhupāda: Because there are third*-class men, fourth-class men. They cannot understand bhakti-yoga immediately. But at last He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), if you are intelligent. Sarva-guhyatam . "Real knowledge is here." Sarva-guhyatamam . But He's proposing at last, "If by understanding all other ways, if he has come to know what is the actual knowledge . . ." that is the most confidential knowledge. That is not for everyone. How one can give up karma-yoga , jñāna-yoga , dhyāna-yoga ? They cannot. But Kṛṣṇa says, "This is the most confidential. If you accept this, then it is to be understood you have knowledge." It is not for everyone. Find out this verse. Sixty-three, Eighteenth Chapter, I think. So take these notes, take these books and preach. You have taken all, sannyāsa . You preach. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you . . ." Prabhupāda: It is to be spoken to the most confidential person. "You are My dear friend; I am talking." Other rascals will not understand. It is especially for Arjuna, not for the common man. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ". . . I am speaking to you this most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit." Prabhupāda: "That is special friendship and special love; so I give you this. Keep it confidential." This is real. Other rascals will not value this. They will protest, "Huh? Why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa?" Gurukṛpā: So what is that confidential? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). "So we have spoken so many other things for other rascals. But you are My friend, very intimate. I tell you, this is real fact." So fact is fact. If you take earlier or later, that is different thing. You have to come. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). One has to take many births before coming to this understanding. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . So everyone is not mahātmā even, what to speak of sudurlabhaḥ . (laughs) (end) *Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Everyone sees that, "Some way or other, I become guru . Then so many persons will offer me respect. Somehow or other, create some situation. Then I become guru ." This is going on. Not bona fide guru . Bona fide guru is indicated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā : "Become guru ." Why ambition? Actually become guru . But how to become guru ? Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa ( CC Madhya 7.128). That's it, otherwise goru . So they will not take this simple method. They will drink, they will hunt after woman and have some attractive singing or dancing and become guru . What is meaning of guru , they do not know. Somehow or other become popular and become guru . This is going on. So with māyā you can attract these foolish rascals very easily, if you can manufacture. You cannot, but if you can show some jugglery, then you become guru . People are after all these things, material things. They are not after Kṛṣṇa. They are after money and women. So if you give some mantra , then gold will be manufactured, and all women will be attracted, very first class. Gurukṛpā: You know, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that if anyone has power to induce anybody to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, therefore they must have some special power. Therefore that's their qualification. Prabhupāda: That special power, that is said in the śāstras . But people do not want that. Gurukṛpā: Just like, for example, in Bengal before, there was that Charan das Babaji. He induced them to chant the wrong mantra , but where is . . . he's not specifically paramparā . *Prabhupāda: No. He chanted for some time and, of course, there was chanting of nitāi*-gaura. He introduced new system of chanting: nitāi-gaura rādhe-śyāma . So the nitāi-gaura chanting will have some effect, Kali-yuga. Although he was presenting pervertedly, the beginning was nitāi-gaura, so it would have some effect. He did not know actually Nitāi-Gaura, from his words, it appears. He used to preach that Nitāi is Rādhārāṇī, and Gaura is Kṛṣṇa. That is siddhānta-virodha . But some way or other, he was chanting nitāi-gaura. So some effect were there. Just like sandalwood. You do not know which way better pulp comes out, but if you rub any way some pulp will come, because it is sandalwood. So he had some effect of chanting nitāi-gaura , but later on they deteriorated because they did not know actually, neither they were taught. Siddhānta-virodha. The siddhānta-virodha means it will deteriorate; it will not endure. Gurukṛpā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about, say, many of your Godbrothers? They also have disciples, and they also are properly initiated by a proper spiritual master, and they give the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . *Prabhupāda: The thing is the spirit, real service of preaching, stopped. Formality is going on, but the real business . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement means āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). That is stopped. Do you follow? The formalities is there, but the real life of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is preaching. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa ? Tāra means preach. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). And that is stopped. They are satisfied if they could construct one temple and beg some rice from the neighborhood: "Sir, we have got some temple." That's all. They are satisfied. The spirit of preaching forward— pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo —that is stopped. So by hari-nāma , by chanting, by this way, to live little peacefully in the temple and eat and sleep, that much they have got. If that is the success, that success they have got. And this was condemned by my Guru Mahārāja, that "To earn some money by showing Deity in the temple and eat and sleep—better you become a sweeper in the street and earn your honest livelihood and live." This is cheating. This was condemned. To construct a temple . . . just like the Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs are doing. They thought that "This is our business. Some innocent people will come here and offer some . . . bās , that's our good income." According to the temple's popularity, they think, "This is our success." Therefore they are deteriorating. So that is not success. Success is he is who is pushing forward the preaching method. That is his success. And if we think that "By showing a temple Deity we get some money and rice and cloth and just peacefully live here. Don't bother about going to Fiji and all over . . ." (laughs) That much success they have got. But that is not Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, sarvatra pracāra . (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126) What they are doing for that? That is point. Gurukṛpā: What if sometimes a disciple, he may go to preach, but he's not preaching in the exact same spirit of his spiritual master? *Prabhupāda: Therefore he is not to be preached. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41): "Go to do good to others, first of all you do good to yourself." First of all you become really preacher. Then go to preach. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never sent neophyte to go to preach. For neophyte the preaching is not their business. For neophyte, one should stick to the worship of Deity in the temple. And those who have understood the philosophy, applied the philosophy in his life, he should go for preaching. Otherwise he'll preach wrongly, like . . . what is that? Charan das Babaji. And it will stop. He wanted to preach, but he did not know how to preach, and therefore, after his life, it is finished. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not say like that, that "You remain a rascal and go to preach." No. Janma sārthaka kari . "Your first business is that you make your life perfect. Then go to preach. 'Perfect' means you learn how to obey My orders." That is perfection. Āmāra ājñāya. So if you are actually, perfectly carrying out the orders of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then you are preaching. Otherwise you will do wrongly, mislead. Don't do that. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If you remain blind, don't try to lead other blind men. That is misleading. First of all open your eyes. Everything is there. Nobody can do anything whimsically. If you do whimsically, concoctedly, that will be failure. It will not be effective. Gurukṛpā: Even though one may get many followers, that is not . . . *Prabhupāda: Many? What you . . .? Many followers . . . the philosophy you present, it must be followed by everyone. That is wanted. You have got, say, ten thousand followers. That does not mean success. Everyone has got some followers. This . . . what is that? Guru*-ji Maharaja. He has got also so-called followers. The T.M., he has got also some followers. Everyone has got some followers. But what kind of followers they have? That is quality. Everything has quality. Simply quantity is not. There are many Christians. Even up to date, some Christian fair or . . . many millions will come. What is the quality? Quality is all meat-eater. But Christian means he should not kill. Where is the Christian? So we have to test by the quality, followers. Not many followers; the quality of the followers. My Guru Mahārāja used to say like that, that "If I get at least one quality disciple, then all my labor will be success." He was saying like that: quality, not the quantity. By quantity if one is amazed, then he is also goru . By quality—what kind of followers? That is the . . . from the very beginning my strictures are there that, "You have to follow this"—quality. If I were . . . "No, you can do like Vivekananda. Yes, what you can, whatever you like," then I think quantity would have been very, very big. But I don't say. I make him promise before the fire, before the Deity, before guru . (break) *That one moon is taken into account. Who takes account of millions of stars? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). Quality. So we should be quality devotee, not quantity devotee. (drinking) Hmm. I have taken two glasses. Just see how nice water is, ḍāb (unripe coconut) water. Here so many ḍābs are available, and this rascal is manufacturing RC (Royal Crown cola), and he is going as to be . . . as business. And for hearing Bhagavad*-gītā they have no time, and they are trying to go to Vṛndāvana. Quantity, not quality. So civilization should be quality civilization, not quantity civilization. Do that. Bheḍyadāsana. Bheḍyadāsana. Bheḍī , lamb, they are going, hundreds and thousands flocks. So, and if one bheḍī , lamb, is somehow or other pushed into slaughterhouse stockroom, so all the . . . all of them. You haven't got to take many. Some way or other, you induce one of them to go into the, what is called, shed, where stocks are kept for taking out daily and killing. So they do not mind that "We are being pushed into this room for future killing. Never mind. One has gone. Go." They'll go. So this is called, in Hindi, bheḍyadāsana , that without any consideration, "One has entered. Let us all enter." That is bheḍī , means animal. Their disciple like this. (pause) Prabhupāda: They liked the ceremony? Gurukṛpā: I think we should tell . . . Vāsudeva dāsa is getting his brahmin thread this afternoon? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: Are you giving him his brahmin initiation this afternoon? Prabhupāda: He has come? Gurukṛpā: No. Prabhupāda: We can do that tomorrow. So it has been settled where we are going? Gurukṛpā: Well, I have to go to the airport this evening. Prabhupāda: No, with Vāsudeva. Gurukṛpā: Yes. He is . . . he thought it was best. Prabhupāda: Don't do anything . . . Gurukṛpā: No, it was his suggestion, because he doesn't want it to be another small program. He feels . . . Prabhupāda: This is also cold water? Hari-śauri: It was. It's still cold. Prabhupāda: Darwin's theory is body is changing, but why it is changing, he does not explain. Gurukṛpā: He said it's the course of nature. You can't explain nature. That's his only answer. Prabhupāda: Nature . . . but we also say, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). So it is to be understood that it is being done under superior control. If nature is doing, so nature is superior control. He cannot explain. So if he does not know how nature is working, then what is the value of his theory? If he says that he cannot explain how nature is doing, that means he is not expert. He may be mistaken. So why his opinion or decision should be taken final? He does not know how nature is working. That is not perfect knowledge. Does he say like that, "Nature is working"? Gurukṛpā: Nature. *Prabhupāda: So how nature is working, he does not know. Then his knowledge is imperfect. Nature is working how, that we know. That is very sober understanding. We say that nature is working under the superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). Nature . . . we see nature. Generally we have got idea of the material nature, that the sun is one of the part and parcel of nature's working. The moon is also, the seasonal changes. So many things, nature is working very systematically. The summer season will appear exactly in the month of June and July. The fall begins in September every year. One can foretell that, "Next September this will happen," because nature's routine is very fixed up. So this systematic work of nature, how it is possible if there is no supervision? Gurukṛpā: What they do is they just take it for granted, because it's happening so regularly. *Prabhupāda: So that means you have to accept it—there is superior administration. You may not know what is that administration, but you have to accept it. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa says: "Under My supervision." Here those who are in the gross ignorance, not intelligent, they can suggest that there is some brain, just like Professor Einstein used to say. But he has no knowledge who is that brain, and we have that knowledge, who is that brain. That brain is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore our knowledge is perfect. They can simply suggest that, "There is a brain," but we can say: "Here is the brain." Then it is . . . if one knows whose brain it is, that is perfect knowledge. Gurukṛpā: But they have no faith. That's the only difficulty. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. You accept some brain. But if somebody comes who is accepted as the brain, they have no faith. That means rascal. Nārada says: "Here is the brain." Brahmā says: "Here is the brain." Śiva says: "Here is the brain." Then ācāryas , Vyāsadeva, says: "Here is the brain." Then modern ācāryas , they say, "Here is the brain." Then why don't you accept? You are so rascal? Just like a person is going to London. So if he says: "I have no faith that this Quantas will carry me to London," then how he will be convinced? How he'll be? If he says that, "I have no faith in this Quantas company, that it will carry me to London," and if he does not purchase the ticket—he has no faith—then who will be loser? The Quantas company will be loser or he will be loser? Hmm? Gurukṛpā: He's the loser. Prabhupāda: The rascal who says . . . you can say that, that Quantas will carry him to London. You can say that. But if on account of his wrong faith if he does not purchase the ticket, then who will be loser? The Quantas will be loser or he will be loser? If you have no faith, then you are loser. You remain. Rot in this place. Do not try to go to London. What do you think? Eh? Indian man (1): The traveler is the loser. Prabhupāda: What is that? Gurukṛpā: The traveler is the loser. Prabhupāda: Yes, traveler is the loser. If you have no faith, then loser. You are loser. You will never understand. Therefore śāstra says, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Big, big stalwart ācāryas , mahājanas , they are accepting; therefore we accept. That is sense. And if you sit down, "No, no, I have no faith," you'll sit down and remain a rascal, that's all. Ādau śraddhā . Therefore faith is the first thing. Ādau śraddhā . If he has got intelligence, he'll see: "So many big, big . . . Lord Brahmā accepts. Lord Śiva accepts. Vyāsadeva accepts. Nārada accepts. The ācāryas accept. So am I more than them? No. I will accept." And that is perfection of . . . mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). And if still you remain faithless, then you are rascal. Same example can be . . . Qantas. So many hundreds are purchasing ticket. They have also never seen London, but on faith they're purchasing ticket. So you have no faith, you don't purchase—therefore remain here. Without faith you cannot begin to work. The same example, you have gone to a barber shop. He is shaving, and people blindly closing eyes, and he has got a razor. He can immediately cut. But why do you do this? Because you have faith that, "These people are professional barbers. They are shaving so many other people. They will not kill me. All right. Go on." This is faith. And if you have no faith, then you will never have clean shaven. You go away. *So beginning is faith, but faith should not be blind. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). You have to take faith from great personalities. That is faith. Just like you American boys and girls, you began with faith. Without faith nothing can be . . . ādau śraddhā . Just like people come, and they get some faith that, "So many people are following Swāmījī." So he associates for some time, then he offers himself for initiation. This is the way. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu*-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā (CC Madhya 23.14). And bhajana-kriyā , if he agrees with spiritual master and takes his word, then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt . Spiritual master says: "You should not do this," and if he follows, then automatically his unnecessary burden is cleansed. This is the way. But faith is the beginning. And that is quite natural. Faith means by seeing others, respectable persons, following, "And why not I shall follow?" That is faith. That is not also blind. You can see that so many others are doing, "So why not I myself?" Gurukṛpā: This faith in the mundane religions, that cannot be called real faith? *Prabhupāda: No, that is faith, but because one is not intelligent, he takes irreligion as religion. He does not . . . he should be also very intelligent, faithful and intelligent. Not blind faith. He must be faithful, and intelligence . . . he must know what is actually religion. So therefore sādhu*-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83). Associate with sādhus means those who are actually on the platform. So if he associates with the sādhu —the sādhus accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead—he will get the understanding that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. Then his faith becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. This is the way. Gurukṛpā: So what is the exact meaning of that verse, śraddhā-śabde ? That verse . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, śraddhā . That faith increase, and when it is increased so much that he fully understands, "By worshiping Kṛṣṇa, everything is done," that is first*-class faith. Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya (CC Madhya 22.62). If he becomes fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is first class, means fulfillment of faith. In the beginning it might be doubtful, neophyte. But when that is . . . that faith is fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is the fulfillment of faith. Faith also there are different stages, improvement. Devotional service means different grades of faith. Today I am in one stage of faith, next day another stage, next day another stage, next day another stage. And when you come to the stage that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), oh, that is final. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That takes time. And quickly also, if one is fortunate. If one is intelligent—"The śāstra says: 'Vāsudeva is everything,' so why not take Vāsudeva as everything?"—then he gains the result immediately. And if he thinks, "All right, let me see for some time," so he may waste his time, but the point is the same. Point is the same, but he has not developed his faith to such extent. He'll have to wait. And intelligent person, he says: "Why shall I wait? Let me take finally vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). That business is finished." Sa mahātmā . Therefore it is said, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. *That kind of staunch faith is not very easy. It is for the great personality. Immediately accepts. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Immediately accepts: "Yes." Then sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is not very easily done. That means yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām (BG 7.28). He is completely free from all reaction of sinful life. Puṇya-karmaṇām —he is only engaged in pious activities. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānām, te dvandva-moha . . . he has no more, I mean, doubt. Dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ . He has no doubt, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person." That's it. That's all. If you take by argument, reason, you may waste your time. But if you are intelligent, you can take it on the evidence of mahājano yena gataḥ , all the mahājanas . They are mahājanas . "Prahlāda has taken, Bhīṣmadeva has taken, Janaka Mahārāja has taken, Lord Brahmā has taken, Lord Śiva has taken, Nārada has taken, Kapila has taken . . . what I am?" (laughs) That is intelligence. "Why I am waiting on my intelligence?" That is real. But this rascal is thinking more than Brahmā, Nārada, Kapila, Prahlāda. He is thinking he is more than them. That means rascal, overintelligent. Overintelligent means rascal. Intelligence means you must have reason. And if he is going beyond reason, only depending on himself, then he is overintelligent rascal. You understand overintelligent rascal? Don't be overintelligent. That is very risky. Be intelligent. Overintelligent means rascal. Spoiling. Just like milk: you are heating, and if you give overheat, spoil so many. That kind of heating is not required. You just push on heat as much required. Otherwise you'll spoil by your intelligence. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? They say that one should try to . . . in order to approach the spiritual master one must . . . Prabhupāda: Purchase? Devotee (2): Approach. Approach. Prabhupāda: Ah, approach. Devotee (2): One must become perfect disciple. One must approach a perfect spiritual master, and he must become perfect disciple. Could you explain that, please? Prabhupāda: Yes. He should follow spiritual master. Then he is perfect disciple. (aside) Bring water with ice. Devotee (2): So some . . . this Gauḍīya Maṭha . . . (break) (end) *Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Everyone sees that, "Some way or other, I become guru . Then so many persons will offer me respect. Somehow or other, create some situation. Then I become guru ." This is going on. Not bona fide guru . Bona fide guru is indicated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā : "Become guru ." Why ambition? Actually become guru . But how to become guru ? Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa ( CC Madhya 7.128). That's it, otherwise goru . So they will not take this simple method. They will drink, they will hunt after woman and have some attractive singing or dancing and become guru . What is meaning of guru , they do not know. Somehow or other become popular and become guru . This is going on. So with māyā you can attract these foolish rascals very easily, if you can manufacture. You cannot, but if you can show some jugglery, then you become guru . People are after all these things, material things. They are not after Kṛṣṇa. They are after money and women. So if you give some mantra , then gold will be manufactured, and all women will be attracted, very first class. Gurukṛpā: You know, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that if anyone has power to induce anybody to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, therefore they must have some special power. Therefore that's their qualification. Prabhupāda: That special power, that is said in the śāstras . But people do not want that. Gurukṛpā: Just like, for example, in Bengal before, there was that Charan das Babaji. He induced them to chant the wrong mantra , but where is . . . he's not specifically paramparā . *Prabhupāda: No. He chanted for some time and, of course, there was chanting of nitāi*-gaura. He introduced new system of chanting: nitāi-gaura rādhe-śyāma . So the nitāi-gaura chanting will have some effect, Kali-yuga. Although he was presenting pervertedly, the beginning was nitāi-gaura, so it would have some effect. He did not know actually Nitāi-Gaura, from his words, it appears. He used to preach that Nitāi is Rādhārāṇī, and Gaura is Kṛṣṇa. That is siddhānta-virodha . But some way or other, he was chanting nitāi-gaura. So some effect were there. Just like sandalwood. You do not know which way better pulp comes out, but if you rub any way some pulp will come, because it is sandalwood. So he had some effect of chanting nitāi-gaura , but later on they deteriorated because they did not know actually, neither they were taught. Siddhānta-virodha. The siddhānta-virodha means it will deteriorate; it will not endure. Gurukṛpā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about, say, many of your Godbrothers? They also have disciples, and they also are properly initiated by a proper spiritual master, and they give the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . *Prabhupāda: The thing is the spirit, real service of preaching, stopped. Formality is going on, but the real business . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement means āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). That is stopped. Do you follow? The formalities is there, but the real life of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is preaching. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa ? Tāra means preach. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). And that is stopped. They are satisfied if they could construct one temple and beg some rice from the neighborhood: "Sir, we have got some temple." That's all. They are satisfied. The spirit of preaching forward— pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo —that is stopped. So by hari-nāma , by chanting, by this way, to live little peacefully in the temple and eat and sleep, that much they have got. If that is the success, that success they have got. And this was condemned by my Guru Mahārāja, that "To earn some money by showing Deity in the temple and eat and sleep—better you become a sweeper in the street and earn your honest livelihood and live." This is cheating. This was condemned. To construct a temple . . . just like the Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs are doing. They thought that "This is our business. Some innocent people will come here and offer some . . . bās , that's our good income." According to the temple's popularity, they think, "This is our success." Therefore they are deteriorating. So that is not success. Success is he is who is pushing forward the preaching method. That is his success. And if we think that "By showing a temple Deity we get some money and rice and cloth and just peacefully live here. Don't bother about going to Fiji and all over . . ." (laughs) That much success they have got. But that is not Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, sarvatra pracāra . (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126) What they are doing for that? That is point. Gurukṛpā: What if sometimes a disciple, he may go to preach, but he's not preaching in the exact same spirit of his spiritual master? *Prabhupāda: Therefore he is not to be preached. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41): "Go to do good to others, first of all you do good to yourself." First of all you become really preacher. Then go to preach. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never sent neophyte to go to preach. For neophyte the preaching is not their business. For neophyte, one should stick to the worship of Deity in the temple. And those who have understood the philosophy, applied the philosophy in his life, he should go for preaching. Otherwise he'll preach wrongly, like . . . what is that? Charan das Babaji. And it will stop. He wanted to preach, but he did not know how to preach, and therefore, after his life, it is finished. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not say like that, that "You remain a rascal and go to preach." No. Janma sārthaka kari . "Your first business is that you make your life perfect. Then go to preach. 'Perfect' means you learn how to obey My orders." That is perfection. Āmāra ājñāya. So if you are actually, perfectly carrying out the orders of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then you are preaching. Otherwise you will do wrongly, mislead. Don't do that. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If you remain blind, don't try to lead other blind men. That is misleading. First of all open your eyes. Everything is there. Nobody can do anything whimsically. If you do whimsically, concoctedly, that will be failure. It will not be effective. Gurukṛpā: Even though one may get many followers, that is not . . . *Prabhupāda: Many? What you . . .? Many followers . . . the philosophy you present, it must be followed by everyone. That is wanted. You have got, say, ten thousand followers. That does not mean success. Everyone has got some followers. This . . . what is that? Guru*-ji Maharaja. He has got also so-called followers. The T.M., he has got also some followers. Everyone has got some followers. But what kind of followers they have? That is quality. Everything has quality. Simply quantity is not. There are many Christians. Even up to date, some Christian fair or . . . many millions will come. What is the quality? Quality is all meat-eater. But Christian means he should not kill. Where is the Christian? So we have to test by the quality, followers. Not many followers; the quality of the followers. My Guru Mahārāja used to say like that, that "If I get at least one quality disciple, then all my labor will be success." He was saying like that: quality, not the quantity. By quantity if one is amazed, then he is also goru . By quality—what kind of followers? That is the . . . from the very beginning my strictures are there that, "You have to follow this"—quality. If I were . . . "No, you can do like Vivekananda. Yes, what you can, whatever you like," then I think quantity would have been very, very big. But I don't say. I make him promise before the fire, before the Deity, before guru . (break) *That one moon is taken into account. Who takes account of millions of stars? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). Quality. So we should be quality devotee, not quantity devotee. (drinking) Hmm. I have taken two glasses. Just see how nice water is, ḍāb (unripe coconut) water. Here so many ḍābs are available, and this rascal is manufacturing RC (Royal Crown cola), and he is going as to be . . . as business. And for hearing Bhagavad*-gītā they have no time, and they are trying to go to Vṛndāvana. Quantity, not quality. So civilization should be quality civilization, not quantity civilization. Do that. Bheḍyadāsana. Bheḍyadāsana. Bheḍī , lamb, they are going, hundreds and thousands flocks. So, and if one bheḍī , lamb, is somehow or other pushed into slaughterhouse stockroom, so all the . . . all of them. You haven't got to take many. Some way or other, you induce one of them to go into the, what is called, shed, where stocks are kept for taking out daily and killing. So they do not mind that "We are being pushed into this room for future killing. Never mind. One has gone. Go." They'll go. So this is called, in Hindi, bheḍyadāsana , that without any consideration, "One has entered. Let us all enter." That is bheḍī , means animal. Their disciple like this. (pause) Prabhupāda: They liked the ceremony? Gurukṛpā: I think we should tell . . . Vāsudeva dāsa is getting his brahmin thread this afternoon? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: Are you giving him his brahmin initiation this afternoon? Prabhupāda: He has come? Gurukṛpā: No. Prabhupāda: We can do that tomorrow. So it has been settled where we are going? Gurukṛpā: Well, I have to go to the airport this evening. Prabhupāda: No, with Vāsudeva. Gurukṛpā: Yes. He is . . . he thought it was best. Prabhupāda: Don't do anything . . . Gurukṛpā: No, it was his suggestion, because he doesn't want it to be another small program. He feels . . . Prabhupāda: This is also cold water? Hari-śauri: It was. It's still cold. Prabhupāda: Darwin's theory is body is changing, but why it is changing, he does not explain. Gurukṛpā: He said it's the course of nature. You can't explain nature. That's his only answer. Prabhupāda: Nature . . . but we also say, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). So it is to be understood that it is being done under superior control. If nature is doing, so nature is superior control. He cannot explain. So if he does not know how nature is working, then what is the value of his theory? If he says that he cannot explain how nature is doing, that means he is not expert. He may be mistaken. So why his opinion or decision should be taken final? He does not know how nature is working. That is not perfect knowledge. Does he say like that, "Nature is working"? Gurukṛpā: Nature. *Prabhupāda: So how nature is working, he does not know. Then his knowledge is imperfect. Nature is working how, that we know. That is very sober understanding. We say that nature is working under the superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). Nature . . . we see nature. Generally we have got idea of the material nature, that the sun is one of the part and parcel of nature's working. The moon is also, the seasonal changes. So many things, nature is working very systematically. The summer season will appear exactly in the month of June and July. The fall begins in September every year. One can foretell that, "Next September this will happen," because nature's routine is very fixed up. So this systematic work of nature, how it is possible if there is no supervision? Gurukṛpā: What they do is they just take it for granted, because it's happening so regularly. *Prabhupāda: So that means you have to accept it—there is superior administration. You may not know what is that administration, but you have to accept it. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa says: "Under My supervision." Here those who are in the gross ignorance, not intelligent, they can suggest that there is some brain, just like Professor Einstein used to say. But he has no knowledge who is that brain, and we have that knowledge, who is that brain. That brain is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore our knowledge is perfect. They can simply suggest that, "There is a brain," but we can say: "Here is the brain." Then it is . . . if one knows whose brain it is, that is perfect knowledge. Gurukṛpā: But they have no faith. That's the only difficulty. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. You accept some brain. But if somebody comes who is accepted as the brain, they have no faith. That means rascal. Nārada says: "Here is the brain." Brahmā says: "Here is the brain." Śiva says: "Here is the brain." Then ācāryas , Vyāsadeva, says: "Here is the brain." Then modern ācāryas , they say, "Here is the brain." Then why don't you accept? You are so rascal? Just like a person is going to London. So if he says: "I have no faith that this Quantas will carry me to London," then how he will be convinced? How he'll be? If he says that, "I have no faith in this Quantas company, that it will carry me to London," and if he does not purchase the ticket—he has no faith—then who will be loser? The Quantas company will be loser or he will be loser? Hmm? Gurukṛpā: He's the loser. Prabhupāda: The rascal who says . . . you can say that, that Quantas will carry him to London. You can say that. But if on account of his wrong faith if he does not purchase the ticket, then who will be loser? The Quantas will be loser or he will be loser? If you have no faith, then you are loser. You remain. Rot in this place. Do not try to go to London. What do you think? Eh? Indian man (1): The traveler is the loser. Prabhupāda: What is that? Gurukṛpā: The traveler is the loser. Prabhupāda: Yes, traveler is the loser. If you have no faith, then loser. You are loser. You will never understand. Therefore śāstra says, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Big, big stalwart ācāryas , mahājanas , they are accepting; therefore we accept. That is sense. And if you sit down, "No, no, I have no faith," you'll sit down and remain a rascal, that's all. Ādau śraddhā . Therefore faith is the first thing. Ādau śraddhā . If he has got intelligence, he'll see: "So many big, big . . . Lord Brahmā accepts. Lord Śiva accepts. Vyāsadeva accepts. Nārada accepts. The ācāryas accept. So am I more than them? No. I will accept." And that is perfection of . . . mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). And if still you remain faithless, then you are rascal. Same example can be . . . Qantas. So many hundreds are purchasing ticket. They have also never seen London, but on faith they're purchasing ticket. So you have no faith, you don't purchase—therefore remain here. Without faith you cannot begin to work. The same example, you have gone to a barber shop. He is shaving, and people blindly closing eyes, and he has got a razor. He can immediately cut. But why do you do this? Because you have faith that, "These people are professional barbers. They are shaving so many other people. They will not kill me. All right. Go on." This is faith. And if you have no faith, then you will never have clean shaven. You go away. *So beginning is faith, but faith should not be blind. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). You have to take faith from great personalities. That is faith. Just like you American boys and girls, you began with faith. Without faith nothing can be . . . ādau śraddhā . Just like people come, and they get some faith that, "So many people are following Swāmījī." So he associates for some time, then he offers himself for initiation. This is the way. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu*-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā (CC Madhya 23.14). And bhajana-kriyā , if he agrees with spiritual master and takes his word, then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt . Spiritual master says: "You should not do this," and if he follows, then automatically his unnecessary burden is cleansed. This is the way. But faith is the beginning. And that is quite natural. Faith means by seeing others, respectable persons, following, "And why not I shall follow?" That is faith. That is not also blind. You can see that so many others are doing, "So why not I myself?" Gurukṛpā: This faith in the mundane religions, that cannot be called real faith? *Prabhupāda: No, that is faith, but because one is not intelligent, he takes irreligion as religion. He does not . . . he should be also very intelligent, faithful and intelligent. Not blind faith. He must be faithful, and intelligence . . . he must know what is actually religion. So therefore sādhu*-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83). Associate with sādhus means those who are actually on the platform. So if he associates with the sādhu —the sādhus accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead—he will get the understanding that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. Then his faith becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. This is the way. Gurukṛpā: So what is the exact meaning of that verse, śraddhā-śabde ? That verse . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, śraddhā . That faith increase, and when it is increased so much that he fully understands, "By worshiping Kṛṣṇa, everything is done," that is first*-class faith. Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya (CC Madhya 22.62). If he becomes fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is first class, means fulfillment of faith. In the beginning it might be doubtful, neophyte. But when that is . . . that faith is fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is the fulfillment of faith. Faith also there are different stages, improvement. Devotional service means different grades of faith. Today I am in one stage of faith, next day another stage, next day another stage, next day another stage. And when you come to the stage that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), oh, that is final. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That takes time. And quickly also, if one is fortunate. If one is intelligent—"The śāstra says: 'Vāsudeva is everything,' so why not take Vāsudeva as everything?"—then he gains the result immediately. And if he thinks, "All right, let me see for some time," so he may waste his time, but the point is the same. Point is the same, but he has not developed his faith to such extent. He'll have to wait. And intelligent person, he says: "Why shall I wait? Let me take finally vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). That business is finished." Sa mahātmā . Therefore it is said, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. *That kind of staunch faith is not very easy. It is for the great personality. Immediately accepts. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Immediately accepts: "Yes." Then sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is not very easily done. That means yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām (BG 7.28). He is completely free from all reaction of sinful life. Puṇya-karmaṇām —he is only engaged in pious activities. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānām, te dvandva-moha . . . he has no more, I mean, doubt. Dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ . He has no doubt, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person." That's it. That's all. If you take by argument, reason, you may waste your time. But if you are intelligent, you can take it on the evidence of mahājano yena gataḥ , all the mahājanas . They are mahājanas . "Prahlāda has taken, Bhīṣmadeva has taken, Janaka Mahārāja has taken, Lord Brahmā has taken, Lord Śiva has taken, Nārada has taken, Kapila has taken . . . what I am?" (laughs) That is intelligence. "Why I am waiting on my intelligence?" That is real. But this rascal is thinking more than Brahmā, Nārada, Kapila, Prahlāda. He is thinking he is more than them. That means rascal, overintelligent. Overintelligent means rascal. Intelligence means you must have reason. And if he is going beyond reason, only depending on himself, then he is overintelligent rascal. You understand overintelligent rascal? Don't be overintelligent. That is very risky. Be intelligent. Overintelligent means rascal. Spoiling. Just like milk: you are heating, and if you give overheat, spoil so many. That kind of heating is not required. You just push on heat as much required. Otherwise you'll spoil by your intelligence. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? They say that one should try to . . . in order to approach the spiritual master one must . . . Prabhupāda: Purchase? Devotee (2): Approach. Approach. Prabhupāda: Ah, approach. Devotee (2): One must become perfect disciple. One must approach a perfect spiritual master, and he must become perfect disciple. Could you explain that, please? Prabhupāda: Yes. He should follow spiritual master. Then he is perfect disciple. (aside) Bring water with ice. Devotee (2): So some . . . this Gauḍīya Maṭha . . . (break) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . they used to discover, whole method is finished. Hari-śauri: Oh, yeah. During the war. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Yes. So sinful means punishment . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Our point is that we are going to live in the future. So if, becoming modern, we forget our future, then what is the use of becoming modernized? Better remain primitive. The business is that in future also we shall exist. If we do not know how we shall exist—either I shall exist as a cat, as a dog or a tree or a demigod or as associate of Kṛṣṇa . . . if I do not know . . . on account of being modernized, if I remain in darkness about my future, so it is better to remain primitive. What is the use of becoming modernized and forget myself and my future? Becoming modernized, if I become dog in future, so where is the use of modernized? Real business is that I shall take care of my future, especially in the human form of body. Cats and dogs, they do not know about future. If I know there is future, I have a future . . . this is also said by Kṛṣṇa: tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ ( BG 2.13): "In future." Not this body, another body. So is it not my first business, to prepare what is my future body? That is my first business? Or to drink RC (Royal Crown cola) my first business? (laughter) Just see, by drinking RC if I, next life I become a dog, then what is the use of modernized life? And if we, by remaining in primitive state, we can produce Vyāsadeva, oh, it is better. But the fools have no sense. Suppose if I go to some place for some business, and going there, to select my hotel, which hotel I shall enter, I remain busy to find out the hotel and I forget the business for which I have gone there, then am I not madman? The human life is meant for deciding his future. If we do not care for the future, and if I want to become modernized from primitive life, is that very good inclination? Real business forgotten, but I am busy with modernized life. That example I give sometimes, śajte śajte dol phurolo, mane (The Holi fair was over while she kept dressing means,) that one has to go to see a fair on account of Dol yatra (Festival of colors.) So women, they generally dress themself very nicely. So the woman said to his friend that, "Let me dress." So dressing, dressing, dressing. In the meantime, the fair finished. So the modern civilization is like that . . . śajte śajte dol phurolo. (The Holi fair was over while she kept dressing.) I have to go to see the fair, but I became so much attentive in dressing that in the meantime news came, "The fair is finished." That is our civilization. A human life is meant for preparing for the next life. That is sensible. But I am so much busy in manufacturing things for modernized life—RC, TC, PC and so on, so on. *In future, at the time of death, I begin to bark and I think, "Oh . . ." And nature will say: "Alright, come on." "No, no, I'm not going to . . ." No, why not? You have become modernized, barking like dog. So you bark. Who will check that? Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā . . . (BG 7.14). Māyā will take consideration, "What you have made yourself, a dog or god?" That she will take account. If you have made yourself a dog, "Just come on, become a dog." If you have made yourself as god, then "Come on, you'll be demigod." That is for everything. Otherwise why there are varieties? There is dog life and there is demigod life, Indra life. It is not one-sided. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), it is not one-sided. You have to change your body. And there are varieties of life, so it is up to you what kind of body you have got. You can change your body up to the point of becoming associate of Kṛṣṇa. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25). Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma . . . (BG 15.6). These informations are there. So if you have to prepare for the next life, why not go back to home, back to Godhead? Yad gatvā na nivartante . This is intelligent? Or to become modernized and become a dog next life. Which is intelligent? The śāstra says: "No, this is intelligent." What? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). This life should be utilized for tapasya , to purify your existence. That is the śāstra . Śāstra does not say you become modernized. What is this modernized? Simply waste of time. Gurukṛpā: Polished. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: Polished dogs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Actual modernized means how far you have advanced in spiritual consciousness. That is wanted. It does not taste exactly ḍāl , I think, due to this new water in it. So is there any engagement? Gurukṛpā: Today? Prabhupāda: Somebody was to come? Gurukṛpā: Was to come, but . . . Prabhupāda: He is not coming. Who is not modernized? They will go to the dancing party for their salvation. (laughter) Dog dance. Gurukṛpā: Today is Sunday. Everyone is busy with their family—family, society. Prabhupāda: You know this Ravi Shankar? *Gurukṛpā: Umm*-hmm. *Prabhupāda: His elder brother, Uday Shankar, he became very famous man as a dancer, all over the world. Uday Shankar. And by imitating his brother, the Ravi Shankar also tried to become first*-class sitarist. So family . . . (break) . . . was a little famous for artistic. So that Uday Shankar was dancing in the Indian way, and there are many sculpture of dancing like that. That was his art. So he became famous. Gurukṛpā: He's not living? He's dead? Prabhupāda: No, he's dead means now he's old man. He's about my age or little older than me. Now his skin has become slackened and body is not so strong to dance. It requires exercise. Therefore he's retired, I think maybe dead. But I don't hear his name. He was more or less known in Europe as Shankar. But he was so popular that one my doctor friend . . . he was educated in London, a medical officer of Allahabad. So he told me that, "I saw that in Paris, Uday Shankar's dancing was advertised, and hundreds and thousands of people from England going to Paris, crossing the Channel to see him dance." He showed me. He's so popular. And now nobody asks for him. (laughs) Gurukṛpā: Another bubble. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: Another bubble popped. I remember when Ravi Shankar and George Harrison came to see you in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: The first thing you asked them was, "You are very famous, but what will you be next life? What is your guarantee for the next life?" Prabhupāda: Yes. I told him. Gurukṛpā: And I don't think any other guru would have asked that. Prabhupāda: Where is guru ? Goru , you say goru . When it is pronounced guru , I say, you say, don't say guru , but you say goru . Gurukṛpā: Goru . Prabhupāda: Goru , no. Do you know goru ? Goru means cow. Gurukṛpā: Cow. (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughing) Otherwise they're going to find out, then don't say goru. Guru . Gurukṛpā: Guru . *Prabhupāda: Goru means cow. Śrī*-goru-caraṇa-padma. Śrī-goru. (laughs) So they're all gorus , nobody guru . Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: All rascals. Now that Ravi Shankar has become George guru . Somebody . . . you were telling me? That this boy has been taught to take the dust of the feet of Ravi Shankar in the stage, and people did not like it. So he has become unpopular accepting a goru . (end) Prabhupāda: . . . they used to discover, whole method is finished. Hari-śauri: Oh, yeah. During the war. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Yes. So sinful means punishment . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Our point is that we are going to live in the future. So if, becoming modern, we forget our future, then what is the use of becoming modernized? Better remain primitive. The business is that in future also we shall exist. If we do not know how we shall exist—either I shall exist as a cat, as a dog or a tree or a demigod or as associate of Kṛṣṇa . . . if I do not know . . . on account of being modernized, if I remain in darkness about my future, so it is better to remain primitive. What is the use of becoming modernized and forget myself and my future? Becoming modernized, if I become dog in future, so where is the use of modernized? Real business is that I shall take care of my future, especially in the human form of body. Cats and dogs, they do not know about future. If I know there is future, I have a future . . . this is also said by Kṛṣṇa: tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ ( BG 2.13): "In future." Not this body, another body. So is it not my first business, to prepare what is my future body? That is my first business? Or to drink RC (Royal Crown cola) my first business? (laughter) Just see, by drinking RC if I, next life I become a dog, then what is the use of modernized life? And if we, by remaining in primitive state, we can produce Vyāsadeva, oh, it is better. But the fools have no sense. Suppose if I go to some place for some business, and going there, to select my hotel, which hotel I shall enter, I remain busy to find out the hotel and I forget the business for which I have gone there, then am I not madman? The human life is meant for deciding his future. If we do not care for the future, and if I want to become modernized from primitive life, is that very good inclination? Real business forgotten, but I am busy with modernized life. That example I give sometimes, śajte śajte dol phurolo, mane (The Holi fair was over while she kept dressing means,) that one has to go to see a fair on account of Dol yatra (Festival of colors.) So women, they generally dress themself very nicely. So the woman said to his friend that, "Let me dress." So dressing, dressing, dressing. In the meantime, the fair finished. So the modern civilization is like that . . . śajte śajte dol phurolo. (The Holi fair was over while she kept dressing.) I have to go to see the fair, but I became so much attentive in dressing that in the meantime news came, "The fair is finished." That is our civilization. A human life is meant for preparing for the next life. That is sensible. But I am so much busy in manufacturing things for modernized life—RC, TC, PC and so on, so on. *In future, at the time of death, I begin to bark and I think, "Oh . . ." And nature will say: "Alright, come on." "No, no, I'm not going to . . ." No, why not? You have become modernized, barking like dog. So you bark. Who will check that? Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā . . . (BG 7.14). Māyā will take consideration, "What you have made yourself, a dog or god?" That she will take account. If you have made yourself a dog, "Just come on, become a dog." If you have made yourself as god, then "Come on, you'll be demigod." That is for everything. Otherwise why there are varieties? There is dog life and there is demigod life, Indra life. It is not one-sided. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), it is not one-sided. You have to change your body. And there are varieties of life, so it is up to you what kind of body you have got. You can change your body up to the point of becoming associate of Kṛṣṇa. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25). Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma . . . (BG 15.6). These informations are there. So if you have to prepare for the next life, why not go back to home, back to Godhead? Yad gatvā na nivartante . This is intelligent? Or to become modernized and become a dog next life. Which is intelligent? The śāstra says: "No, this is intelligent." What? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). This life should be utilized for tapasya , to purify your existence. That is the śāstra . Śāstra does not say you become modernized. What is this modernized? Simply waste of time. Gurukṛpā: Polished. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: Polished dogs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Actual modernized means how far you have advanced in spiritual consciousness. That is wanted. It does not taste exactly ḍāl , I think, due to this new water in it. So is there any engagement? Gurukṛpā: Today? Prabhupāda: Somebody was to come? Gurukṛpā: Was to come, but . . . Prabhupāda: He is not coming. Who is not modernized? They will go to the dancing party for their salvation. (laughter) Dog dance. Gurukṛpā: Today is Sunday. Everyone is busy with their family—family, society. Prabhupāda: You know this Ravi Shankar? *Gurukṛpā: Umm*-hmm. *Prabhupāda: His elder brother, Uday Shankar, he became very famous man as a dancer, all over the world. Uday Shankar. And by imitating his brother, the Ravi Shankar also tried to become first*-class sitarist. So family . . . (break) . . . was a little famous for artistic. So that Uday Shankar was dancing in the Indian way, and there are many sculpture of dancing like that. That was his art. So he became famous. Gurukṛpā: He's not living? He's dead? Prabhupāda: No, he's dead means now he's old man. He's about my age or little older than me. Now his skin has become slackened and body is not so strong to dance. It requires exercise. Therefore he's retired, I think maybe dead. But I don't hear his name. He was more or less known in Europe as Shankar. But he was so popular that one my doctor friend . . . he was educated in London, a medical officer of Allahabad. So he told me that, "I saw that in Paris, Uday Shankar's dancing was advertised, and hundreds and thousands of people from England going to Paris, crossing the Channel to see him dance." He showed me. He's so popular. And now nobody asks for him. (laughs) Gurukṛpā: Another bubble. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: Another bubble popped. I remember when Ravi Shankar and George Harrison came to see you in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: The first thing you asked them was, "You are very famous, but what will you be next life? What is your guarantee for the next life?" Prabhupāda: Yes. I told him. Gurukṛpā: And I don't think any other guru would have asked that. Prabhupāda: Where is guru ? Goru , you say goru . When it is pronounced guru , I say, you say, don't say guru , but you say goru . Gurukṛpā: Goru . Prabhupāda: Goru , no. Do you know goru ? Goru means cow. Gurukṛpā: Cow. (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughing) Otherwise they're going to find out, then don't say goru. Guru . Gurukṛpā: Guru . *Prabhupāda: Goru means cow. Śrī*-goru-caraṇa-padma. Śrī-goru. (laughs) So they're all gorus , nobody guru . Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: All rascals. Now that Ravi Shankar has become George guru . Somebody . . . you were telling me? That this boy has been taught to take the dust of the feet of Ravi Shankar in the stage, and people did not like it. So he has become unpopular accepting a goru . (end) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . just on the Sunday easily. Charge them . . . you know, like in Los Angeles, we used to charge a dollar a . . . Prabhupāda: The loan will be clear very soon. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. They have a . . . they are very expert at financing now, these . . . the men who are in charge now. They're claiming that within two or three months all of the debt will be completely cleared. They have a plan, very easily. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) He is the right person. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And the restaurant is very successful. Also, they have not advertised that, but every day at least about fifty people come for the lunch, and at least another seventy, eighty people come in the evening for dinner. For a full meal each person pays an average of about $2.50. Prabhupāda: That's cheap. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All you can eat for two dollars . . . Prabhupāda: And for public it is very cheap. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very inexpensive. And if they advertise it, they won't be able to handle all the people that will come. It's such a central location. Prabhupāda: It will be automatically advertised. When people will say: "Oh, there is a nice ISKCON restaurant, and it is so cheap and so nice," people will come. Just like in our Vṛndāvana temple, we don't advertise. Of course, that's . . . people are coming by thousands. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Same here. Prabhupāda: I thought that so long distance from the city, nobody will come. But Balarāma is so powerful, He's bringing, "Come out here." (laughter) Otherwise, I was . . . what is that? Plowing? Yamunā was threatened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Balarāma. Prabhupāda: And the whole Kuru dynasty was threatened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good class of people are coming to the restaurant—businessmen, like that. Prabhupāda: And there is book display? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, there's a book display. Prabhupāda: They are purchasing book also? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They give them a Back to Godhead , complimentary copy . . . Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . with the meal. And then they also purchase books. The buses are going on nicely. All the buses are out. Two more buses are being made now. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are adding two more. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Well, we had almost finished two. They'll be added in June, so that will make eight, a total of eight. And they're having a normal program going on nicely. And Madhudviṣa Mahārāja also went to visit the other temples. He said in Boston they've gotten . . . (aside) I think they've already gotten it, right? That restaurant? Ambarīṣa Prabhu has gotten the most wonderful restaurant there, just around the corner from the temple. So it will be very, very high class restaurant, with waiters, and . . . Prabhupāda: Now, this New York restaurant being organized, other restaurant will follow. *Gurukṛpā: This restaurant down here, I just was there. Gaura*-Govinda, he's the one who decorated it. First class. People really like it. Prabhupāda: From the very beginning I was asking to open restaurant and farm. Produce ghee in the farm and send to the restaurant, and make nice samosā, kachorī preparation, and there will be no scarcity of money. And if you organize in this way, your whole country will be transferred into Kṛṣṇa conscious country. Whole country. So, what about your China program? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we went to New York to meet with Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja's father, and he was very helpful. We approached him in a frank way, and he immediately got the help of his office. He's the president of this Far East American Council. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And not only China, this is for all of Asia. It includes as . . . some of the persons belonging to it are the . . . just like the chairman of Coca*-Cola, the Bankers Trust Company first vice-president, all of the big banks, Bank of America senior vice-president, First National City Bank vice-president, all of these men. Prabhupāda: So you can contract with all big, big men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And he's the president of the council. Prabhupāda: His father? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then he is very influential man. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very. So he immediately got . . . Prabhupāda: So you should be like father, like son. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has the same name. It's just "Junior" at the end, so they know him. Prabhupāda: No, intelligence also. Father's intelligence he must inherit. There is an Indian proverb, bāpakā beṭā sepāikā ghoḍā, kucha nehi to thoḍā thoḍā means, "The father's son and the soldier's horse, they acquire the quality, if not all, some; must." If one is good soldier, his horse is also trained up. There is a history in India. The horse has played heroic. The Queen of Jhansi's horse and this, our, what is called, Shivaji's horse, they have played unique part in the history. Sepāikā ghoḍā . It is animal, but because it is the horse of a famous hero, it has played. Similarly, the son of father must be as good as father. If not, to some extent. Yes. So you are the . . . your father is the leader of so many big, big businessmen. You also become leader. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: For Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: For Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. And you have got the intelligence. I have seen. I have studied you. Now you combine. Both of you, you are intelligent. You turn the whole America Kṛṣṇa conscious. Bās . Then success all over the world. America is the leader of the nations. Now, if the America becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then our movement is perfectly successful. And you have got the potency in America. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These men are all in Asia, though. His father's biggest concern . . . see, his father . . . the company is divided into two: the American branch of Seagrams, and the overseas, which incorporates the whole world outside of America. His father is the president of overseas. So his father has all connections with all of the embassies overseas, all of the big corporations overseas. Prabhupāda: So all these big, big men, let them have one set of books and study. It is not any expenditure for them, but if at their leisure hour they read some of the line—they are all intelligent men—they'll get ideas, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So through the influence of father, just try to introduce our books to these big men. It is not . . . they may keep them in library, and at leisure hour, if they simply glance over the line, oh, it will be great success. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And their sons will also read it. Prabhupāda: Their sons also will read. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Already my father has noticed in his travels that some of his friends, their sons have joined our movement now too. Prabhupāda: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ, lokas tad anuvartate ( BG 3.21). If these big men of the world, they take it, "Oh, yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine," then naturally it will be followed by the others. So here is a good opportunity to contact big men of the world. So utilize it properly. You . . . both of you are intelligent. Very cautiously deal with them. They will understand that, "Oh, these people are very honest men of character and high knowledge and God conscious." That will make our movement success. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His father has been giving us . . . of course, it was . . . we have been approaching him through the aspect of doing business in China. His father is encouraging us in the sense that he is seeing Dhṛṣṭadyumna . . . like whenever we visit him, we come in our suits, and his father is seeing that . . . he is encouraging him also because he's taking some . . . what he calls a very, what would you say, a responsible position, attempting to do some business. So he's been giving us letters on his company's letterhead. Just like this is a letter to the director of the Department of Commerce of the United States. We've seen a number of people. We've been visiting different directors. First thing we did when we went back is, after meeting him, we got many books on China. Some of the examples are, just like this. We read about twenty*-five books. We've studied up very thoroughly and researched everything about China. Here is a book, The Religious Policy and Practice in Communist China . It describes everything about religion there. So we thoroughly read this book. Then there's other books, books on education, we read books on history . . . Prabhupāda: Chinese people, they are trying to raise their standard of civilization. Do they? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they . . . their philosophy is called dialectic materialism. They want to advance materially, and they . . . we have prepared one report of an interview with the president of a committee on United States and China relations. He's one of the leading experts in China. So after researching and studying all the educational, the libraries, all the different functions in China, we went and spoke with this gentleman. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: First we got a lot of information ourselves, so we'd be knowledgeable. We read for one month. We got . . . we wrote away to all the councils, we got hundreds of books like this, special reports about China. We read them, and then we went to meet this man, because he is the most knowledgeable, expert person on China in the United States. And we made up a report which we wanted to read to you, because it gives everything very nicely. It tells what China is doing now, and what our program can be for book distribution. Prabhupāda: No, what is their aim? After studying all these books, what do you think? What is the aim of China? What is the objective they are making progress towards? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their aim is that everyone should be materially comfortable. That no one . . . there should be no . . . Prabhupāda: In that case, they should, if they have got sense . . . just like in the whole world, these American people are materially comfortable. But why they are producing hippies now? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They see this as a fault of the system, capitalism. They say that capitalism means the enjoyment of the few at the . . . Prabhupāda: Materialism means capitalism. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, they want communistic materialism. In other words, by creating, forming communes, everyone will get equal portion of food and bedding and clothing and medicine. Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact. A man's tendency is that everyone wants to get more. So how they will check it? This is already proved in Russia. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They condemn Russia. They say Russia is a failure. Prabhupāda: And similarly, they will have to condemn. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's our conclusion. Prabhupāda: If they follow the wrong path, they will have the wrong result. This is not . . . *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their leader, Mao Tse*-tung, he was very austere, and he is very moral, and he has these purges where he takes the men who he sees are not . . . or who are trying to use their position for their own power, and he takes it away from them. And they are constantly going through these purges of their system to insure that no one enjoys more than others, at the expense of others. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Artificial, though. Prabhupāda: So that is artificial way of. Unless one is prepared to . . . just like why they are inducing persons to sacrifice their accumulated wealth for the state? Why? Communistic idea that everyone should be equal. So if somebody has more than others, they want to take it away. Just like in India this policy is now growing. So everyone should give away, but now it is being done by law, by force. But that will not stay. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We agree. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We also agree it's a failure. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is bound to fail. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you voluntarily give, it will be failure. You will try to find out ways how you can take everything . . . just like income tax. The government is trying to take more money from the public, and public is hiding them in black market. This is going on. Nobody is . . . even your Nixon, he also hidden some money from the income tax. Why? He is the head of the government. So one side, he is head of the government, try to take money from the public, but he personally, himself, he is hiding. Why this defect? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will say that the system encourages man's greed, whereas their system . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, system . . . if the . . . you cannot change the mind. If you have got mind to enjoy more, by force if I try to force you not to enjoy more, give to the state, this is a struggle. This is not perfect process. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that that will be corrected by education. Prabhupāda: Education . . . that means what is that education? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that the . . . they don't . . . of course, we say education means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Education means they must learn to sacrifice everything for the topmost. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they say the topmost is the general mass of everyone, the proletariat, all people combined. *Prabhupāda: That's all right, general. But you know how to make general mass of people happy. That example we give, that the whole body . . . you can make the whole body happy simply by supplying food to the stomach. That is the best way. And if you want to make happy every part of the body individual, that will never be successful. You must know where to touch. Just like the huge machine is going on by the expert manipulation of the pilot. He is pushing one works, immediately the plane becomes . . . it is . . . so you must know where to touch. If I am layman, I am put into that, then, instead of putting here, I shall put my here, and then it will go down, immediately " ohn*-ohn-ohn ," finished. So this is nature's way, that you supply food to the stomach, and the energy will be distributed every part. You supply water to the root of the tree, it will be supplied everywhere. That you must know. Otherwise, if you . . . just like if you do not know, a expert, not expert, so he's advised, "Give to, the food to the stomach." "And in where?" "No, in the hole of the body." If he does not, which hole, then he will put somewhere, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here. It will never act. Then you must know the science how to make everyone happy. If you do not know that, then your imperfect imagination will never be done, and that has become everywhere. Why there is difference of opinion even both of the communistic countries? Why there is difference of opinion between Russia and China? Because both of you do not know how to make everyone happy. That is the point. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: China has achieved great material strides in the last twenty years. There is no prostitution. They have wiped out flies, no more flies causing disease. There is . . . and they look to a very bitter past of exploitation at the hand of foreigners and internal civil war and great suffering and starvation. So when they look back over twenty years they see, "Oh, we have advanced greatly." So they are very satisfied. Prabhupāda: No, if they actually progressing, they will have to come to that point—that is natural—where, placing your service, you can serve everyone. That is the right conclusion. But we have got that right conclusion. If you take from us, you can make immediately. But if you want to wait by your research work, then you can waste your time. But you have to come to this point. That is a fact. Just like you have to give food to the mouth. If you do not know, out of rascaldom you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment . . . there are so many holes. You go on experimenting, and waste your time. But unless you come to this point that, "Food has to be supplied here," your all attempt will be failure. That you have to tell them. And because you cannot supersede nature's way . . . nature's way is, "The food must go through here." You cannot change it. You are not above nature. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They say that you can become above nature. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That will make them failure. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Oh, yes, they will fail. *Prabhupāda: That will make them failure. Tell them, then this will make them failure, "If you are so foolish that you want to go above nature, then you are fool number one." Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is not possible. That is not possible. Then you are following wrong path. If you are imagining like that, that "We have surpassed the laws of nature," then you are fool number one. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In that respect they are like the Americans and Russians. They think that we can overcome the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are just like the Americans and Russians in the same way. They are thinking we can overcome the stringent laws of nature. Prabhupāda: No, that is the foolishness. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). So long they will have this impression that they can overcome the laws of nature they will continue to become mūḍha . Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, another problem . . . Prabhupāda: In which way you have surpassed nature? First of all, if you are thinking like that, in which way you have surpassed the nature? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say: "For example, before we began our agricultural development, there was very poor agricultural produce all over the country due to lack of proper water. Now we have laid huge irrigation systems, and there is no more drought." Prabhupāda: Therefore that is nature's way. Nature supplies you water. That is nature's way. That means you are making perfect according to the nature's way. But nature give you water; you produce profusely. But if you want to go above the nature, you produce without water. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) It can't be done. Prabhupāda: Then we shall see that you have surpassed the laws of . . . the laws of nature is there must be water. Nature is supplying. And you are trying to imitate. But if you say that, "We can overpass the nature's law," then you produce without water. Then you'll be able. Then we shall see that you have gone above . . . this, you are following the nature's. That is not surpassing. That is following little properly. "Now you have arranged for water. That's very good. But if nature pours water, then you save so much labor. Do you know that, how nature will supply water profusely? You haven't got to make artificial arrangement for water. Do you know that?" Ask them. We know that. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Formerly their society was very much like the Vedic culture. There was the emperor and the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it was . . . the Chinese people were coming, taking knowledge from . . . everyone was coming. So now argument that, "If you are . . . you are following the nature's way. Nature supply water. That is a fact. Here is cloud. Nature will supply. Now, if you want to surpass nature, then you produce in the factory, without water, food grains. Then we shall understand that you can surpass. As you are producing instruments and so many other motorcars and this, that, so many, in the factory, that's all right. In the factory you produce food grains without water. Then you have surpassed nature." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can't do it. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No one can do it. Prabhupāda: Then where is the question of surpassing nature? Make them fool in every point, these rascals, by argument. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Unfortunately, they do not teach any philosophy anymore. They have done away with all . . . Prabhupāda: This is not philosophy. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. This is science. Prabhupāda: This philosophy, it is science. Without water you cannot produce. This is science. This is not imagination. So if you want to surpass nature, then you do practically. Why should you try to bring canal water or well water? Don't bring. You cannot surpass the laws of nature. That has to be accepted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their main point is that they want to manipulate expertly the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: That means let them waste their time. Therefore it requires many births to understand this law. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they're going away from this kind of understanding. They had a heritage of philosophical understanding, correct philosophical . . . they were very . . . for instance, their whole system during the time of Confucius . . . up until two or three hundred years ago their system was they had a monarchy, a king, an emperor, and the emperor was believed to be the representative of God. Prabhupāda: That is good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And it was Vedic. They had a brahmin community—they called them scholars—who were advising. And they had administrators, and they had workers. Now the current Communists, they are against that system. They say this system was the worst system of all because it made some big and some small. Because naturally it became . . . Prabhupāda: But you are doing the same thing. Otherwise, why you are reforming? Who is reforming unless the one class is very intelligent? The same system. You . . . your . . . what is your rascal's name? *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Mao Tse*-tung. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mao. Mao. Prabhupāda: So he is supposed to be intelligent. He is supposed to be intelligent. So the two classes already there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he says everyone can be equally intelligent. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But these classes must remain there—the teacher class and the student class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's what they do. They take the teachers . . . this is one of their programs. Actually, we have written a report which explains. They take the teachers, and they send the teachers out into the factory and into the farms for years. Prabhupāda: So anywhere you send, the student and teacher class is there. You change the name, you change the process, it doesn't matter, but the student class and teacher class will always remain. That is your foolishness. You are simply changing different names. But originally, as planned by nature, that is always there. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They say let the factory worker teach the teacher. Prabhupāda: Anyway, teacher class, rascal, it is teacher class. You make a teacher class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say everyone should be teachers. Prabhupāda: That "Should be" means not. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they are making everyone teachers. Prabhupāda: And this "making" means not. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They are trying to make. Prabhupāda: That is all right. The classes, two classes, are there. You cannot change that. "trying," "making," means two. Hari-śauri: It's artificial. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like they let the students teach the teachers. Prabhupāda: That's right. So the teachers . . . sometimes you become teacher, sometimes I become teacher. What is this? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're trying to create a society where there are no superior*-inferior. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Classless society. Prabhupāda: They are taking themselves the superior position to make equal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Yes. That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like some of the rascal svāmīs come here that "There is no teacher of . . . no require teacher, no need of books." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then why do we need them? Prabhupāda: And these rascals are writing books, that "There is no need of book." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That happened. One svāmī said: "Now you . . . meditation means don't think of anything." So then one of our men at the meeting raised his hand and said: "Then why do we need you?" So he got very angry. He said: "If the mind should do nothing, what do we need you for?" Prabhupāda: So what was his reply? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He told his men to usher our man out. His men got very agitated because there was no reply. He couldn't give a reply. So they asked our man to leave for disturbing the sleeping of the public. Prabhupāda: Anyway, the whole world is rascal. They will manufacture and spoil time, their own time and others' time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, we did a report telling . . . we wanted to read this to you. It gives you an idea of what are the possibilities of spreading your books or Kṛṣṇa consciousness in China. We made up a report for you. Do you want to hear it? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, you want to read it, Dhṛṣṭadyumna? 'Cause it is actually very useful, if not now, in the future of our Soc . . . this report is based on a lot of research. Read. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . that if they are rascals, then don't try. You see? Reject them. But there is good potency in your country. You do peacefully here. If they are rascals, means stubborn rascals . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You cannot imagine how rascal they are. That's why we wrote this report. I mean . . . Prabhupāda: Then don't try. Don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a . . . the Christians, they have a boat two hundred miles off the China coast, and they put little Bibles in cellophane bags and let the Bibles float into China. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Balloons. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Balloons. That's how hard it is to preach there. Prabhupāda: That is also nonsense. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's nonsense, but I mean the point is how difficult it is. We have . . . *Prabhupāda: Then don't try. Don't waste time. Don't try. Better try in your country. You have got enough field, and they are intelligent and they are favorable. So why should we waste our time? There is no need. If you make your country, America, God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious—they are already—that will be example to the whole world. These men, rascals' program, will be failure, finished, this, today or tomorrow. They'll never be successful. It is not . . . that is not possible. If they have so foolishly declared that, "We are going above the laws of nature," they're first*-class rascals, which is impossible. What they have conquered over the nature? These rascals will not die? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they'll still die. *Prabhupāda: Then? Then what is this? The rascals will not become old men? So what they have surpassed, laws of nature? What way? Simply making the teachers student and student teacher. Simply wasting time. Better you utilize your father's position, but for introducing our books to these high*-class men. Just you are trying to introduce books in the university libraries, similarly, you try to introduce these books to the high class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (aside to Dhṛṣṭadyumna) Do you think your father would give letters of introduction . . .? Prabhupāda: And that is not difficult. These men, they have got enough money. If they spend one thousand dollar for our books, that is nothing for them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of your disciples, Praghoṣa, he's the biggest book distributor, practically. Tripurāri trained him up. He is now starting a program of meeting with these executives and doing just this. He is working in New York, and he's developing a program like this. Prabhupāda: Now in India also they are trying. Yaśomatī . . . Yaśodānandana's report is that he approached one head librarian in Andhra Pradesh and . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Karnataka. Prabhupāda: Karnataka. Karnataka province, educated province, Karnataka, South India, Karnataka, very educated. So he has immediately ordered thirty sets of books in different libraries. He has appreciated so much. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The professors in Bombay, some of them are already reviewing Prabhupāda's books very favorably. Prabhupāda: So you just touch the topmost men. But if, somehow or other, if you see some of the topmost men of the China, "You kindly read our books at your leisure." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can't approach those men. Prabhupāda: Then give it up. If it is too difficult, don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not only difficult, it's impossible. Prabhupāda: Then don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Completely impossible. Prabhupāda: Give up this idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It may be possible in fifty years from now, but not now. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Our descendants will try for that. But let us try where it is favorable. Don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, we were really, you know, just looking for any loophole, but there is no loophole. Prabhupāda: No hole. That's all right. We don't care for it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The man we spoke to, when he heard what we wanted to do, he said: "Boys, you're up against the wall." He said: "You're up against the Great Wall." China has a wall called the Great Wall. He said: "You've come up against the Great Wall." He says: "You'll never cross it." Prabhupāda: No, they'll be . . . nature's law is so strong that they are also trying to knock their head in the wall. They will themselves break their head. The laws of nature is the same. If you try to break the walls from this side and if they try to break the walls from that side, both of them will lose their head. So if they are so foolish . . . they are foolish. Everywhere such foolish men are there. They are trying to overcome the laws of nature. That is the greatest foolishness. That is the greatest foolishness. Just like government has got police force, military force, and if somebody tries to become . . . violate the laws of government by defying police force and military force, that is futile. Is it possible that, "I shall defy the government laws"? No, there is police force. There is military. "I don't care for that." It is foolishness. It is simply foolishness. Similarly, these laws of nature means the force of the Supreme. So if you want to defy, you may waste your time. It is not possible. And practically, Kṛṣṇa says: "Here I have enforced this miserable condition of material life." *Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu (BG 13.9). First of all surpass this, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . Then talk of surpassing the laws of nature. Can the Communists overcome, stopping old age? No Communist will be old man? Then what way you have surpassed the laws of nature? No Communist will die? Then where is your surpassing laws of nature? Ultimately you are under the grip of laws of nature. So what is the meaning of this foolish talking, that "I am going to surpass the laws of nature"? Show us first of all. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their goal is not so broad. They just want to control the flooding of the river. Prabhupāda: That means the little children's policy. Children, just like imagining so many things, "I shall do that. I shall do." The potter's imagination. You know that? Potter's imagination? You do not know the story? One potter is selling earthen pots, and he is saying that "Now, these two paisā , it has cost me one paisā . I shall make one paisā profit. Then I can make such profit. I shall invest again. I shall make another profit, another profit. In this way I shall become millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife shall be very obedient. And if he does not become obedient, I shall give him a kick like this." And he . . . what was . . . one pot was there; he kicked that pot and broke. (laughter) It broke. "Oh, again I am poor man." So this is going on, imagination. Imagination . . . "I shall become so great that I shall kick Kṛṣṇa's law," and whatever pot he had, broken. That's all. Rascals, simply rascals. If anyone thinks like that, that "I shall surpass the laws of nature," then he's madman. He's madman. So what is the use of dealing with madmen? And as soon as you challenge them that, "Show us that you have surpassed the laws of nature," "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do." That's all. This is their reply. *So it is better to avoid such men. But if you peacefully you can introduce, "All right, you will do. You are wonderful men, so kindly if you read some pages of this, it is not very costly. You can keep. At leisure hour you can read," in this way, imploring, then they will be benefited. That much we can do to any rascal. He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya dūrāt caitanya*-candra-caraṇe (Caitanya-candrāmṛta). "Oh, you are so nice; *therefore I am flattering you. I humbly obeisance. Kindly hear one thing. Keep some books. It is not very costly." Bās . This much you can do. And let them become puffed up by their false notions. But if they keep some books, sometimes they will read or their sons will read. That's all. Therefore I am stressing so much on books, that if the puffed*-up rascals take some book and sometimes, if they read, he'll be benefited, perfectly benefited. So distribute these books anywhere possible. It doesn't matter where it is. The same process. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya . The books will sell, that "You are rascal number one, you set aside whatever you learned. Read this." He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya : "You are very learned, but forget what you have learned, all rascaldom. Try to read this book." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate : "A rascal fool is very beautifully dressed, very nice seating. But his rascaldom will be disclosed as soon as he will speak." So these rascals, as soon as they speak, "We shall surpass the laws of nature," then we can understand what kind of rascals. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ . By their . . . these words we can take, "Oh, rascaldom," at once. "I shall break the wall. I shall push the mountains with head." It is like that. If somebody is thinking that "I shall push the Himalayan mountains by knocking with my head," then we can understand. So where it is? A rascal, the innocent, he is also rascal. But innocent is eager to become intelligent, so there we shall deal. And the stubborn atheists, they are dviṣat . They cannot be corrected immediately, unless they become ruined. (break) . . . their standard of life. Try for that. Concentrate in your country. There is no need of going . . . I was written, asking you that, that "If it is very hard job, don't try for that, useless waste of time." Incorrigible. So what is the use of going to a person . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We also researched a little bit about Russia. After we saw how it looked here—it was impossible—we were looking towards Russia. So we did some research on Russia also. There it's a little bit more open, but it's also, in terms of any kind of broad program, it is practically impossible. For example, distribution of books in Russia, there's only one company that buys the books. There's one import . . . Prabhupāda: So let him, one. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And it's not even done personally. You do it through the mail. They don't . . . it's not a question of going and personally showing the books. Prabhupāda: Oh, then don't send. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are waste . . . Prabhupāda: Don't waste time and money. It is not possible. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It doesn't require . . . you can't influence a per . . . they don't have the power. A university does not have the power to buy the books. Prabhupāda: Then you do that. Don't do which is impossible. No, don't try for it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And China is ten times more closed than Russia. Prabhupāda: No, then stop this policy. Ask Gopāla not to go there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He can get the books in Russia . . . Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Through the mail Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . through the mail just as sucessfully as by going personally. Prabhupāda: Hmm. And that's nice. Try for that. (end) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . just on the Sunday easily. Charge them . . . you know, like in Los Angeles, we used to charge a dollar a . . . Prabhupāda: The loan will be clear very soon. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. They have a . . . they are very expert at financing now, these . . . the men who are in charge now. They're claiming that within two or three months all of the debt will be completely cleared. They have a plan, very easily. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) He is the right person. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And the restaurant is very successful. Also, they have not advertised that, but every day at least about fifty people come for the lunch, and at least another seventy, eighty people come in the evening for dinner. For a full meal each person pays an average of about $2.50. Prabhupāda: That's cheap. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All you can eat for two dollars . . . Prabhupāda: And for public it is very cheap. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very inexpensive. And if they advertise it, they won't be able to handle all the people that will come. It's such a central location. Prabhupāda: It will be automatically advertised. When people will say: "Oh, there is a nice ISKCON restaurant, and it is so cheap and so nice," people will come. Just like in our Vṛndāvana temple, we don't advertise. Of course, that's . . . people are coming by thousands. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Same here. Prabhupāda: I thought that so long distance from the city, nobody will come. But Balarāma is so powerful, He's bringing, "Come out here." (laughter) Otherwise, I was . . . what is that? Plowing? Yamunā was threatened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Balarāma. Prabhupāda: And the whole Kuru dynasty was threatened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good class of people are coming to the restaurant—businessmen, like that. Prabhupāda: And there is book display? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, there's a book display. Prabhupāda: They are purchasing book also? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They give them a Back to Godhead , complimentary copy . . . Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . with the meal. And then they also purchase books. The buses are going on nicely. All the buses are out. Two more buses are being made now. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are adding two more. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Well, we had almost finished two. They'll be added in June, so that will make eight, a total of eight. And they're having a normal program going on nicely. And Madhudviṣa Mahārāja also went to visit the other temples. He said in Boston they've gotten . . . (aside) I think they've already gotten it, right? That restaurant? Ambarīṣa Prabhu has gotten the most wonderful restaurant there, just around the corner from the temple. So it will be very, very high class restaurant, with waiters, and . . . Prabhupāda: Now, this New York restaurant being organized, other restaurant will follow. *Gurukṛpā: This restaurant down here, I just was there. Gaura*-Govinda, he's the one who decorated it. First class. People really like it. Prabhupāda: From the very beginning I was asking to open restaurant and farm. Produce ghee in the farm and send to the restaurant, and make nice samosā, kachorī preparation, and there will be no scarcity of money. And if you organize in this way, your whole country will be transferred into Kṛṣṇa conscious country. Whole country. So, what about your China program? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we went to New York to meet with Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja's father, and he was very helpful. We approached him in a frank way, and he immediately got the help of his office. He's the president of this Far East American Council. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And not only China, this is for all of Asia. It includes as . . . some of the persons belonging to it are the . . . just like the chairman of Coca*-Cola, the Bankers Trust Company first vice-president, all of the big banks, Bank of America senior vice-president, First National City Bank vice-president, all of these men. Prabhupāda: So you can contract with all big, big men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And he's the president of the council. Prabhupāda: His father? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then he is very influential man. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very. So he immediately got . . . Prabhupāda: So you should be like father, like son. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has the same name. It's just "Junior" at the end, so they know him. Prabhupāda: No, intelligence also. Father's intelligence he must inherit. There is an Indian proverb, bāpakā beṭā sepāikā ghoḍā, kucha nehi to thoḍā thoḍā means, "The father's son and the soldier's horse, they acquire the quality, if not all, some; must." If one is good soldier, his horse is also trained up. There is a history in India. The horse has played heroic. The Queen of Jhansi's horse and this, our, what is called, Shivaji's horse, they have played unique part in the history. Sepāikā ghoḍā . It is animal, but because it is the horse of a famous hero, it has played. Similarly, the son of father must be as good as father. If not, to some extent. Yes. So you are the . . . your father is the leader of so many big, big businessmen. You also become leader. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: For Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: For Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. And you have got the intelligence. I have seen. I have studied you. Now you combine. Both of you, you are intelligent. You turn the whole America Kṛṣṇa conscious. Bās . Then success all over the world. America is the leader of the nations. Now, if the America becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then our movement is perfectly successful. And you have got the potency in America. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These men are all in Asia, though. His father's biggest concern . . . see, his father . . . the company is divided into two: the American branch of Seagrams, and the overseas, which incorporates the whole world outside of America. His father is the president of overseas. So his father has all connections with all of the embassies overseas, all of the big corporations overseas. Prabhupāda: So all these big, big men, let them have one set of books and study. It is not any expenditure for them, but if at their leisure hour they read some of the line—they are all intelligent men—they'll get ideas, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So through the influence of father, just try to introduce our books to these big men. It is not . . . they may keep them in library, and at leisure hour, if they simply glance over the line, oh, it will be great success. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And their sons will also read it. Prabhupāda: Their sons also will read. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Already my father has noticed in his travels that some of his friends, their sons have joined our movement now too. Prabhupāda: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ, lokas tad anuvartate ( BG 3.21). If these big men of the world, they take it, "Oh, yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine," then naturally it will be followed by the others. So here is a good opportunity to contact big men of the world. So utilize it properly. You . . . both of you are intelligent. Very cautiously deal with them. They will understand that, "Oh, these people are very honest men of character and high knowledge and God conscious." That will make our movement success. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His father has been giving us . . . of course, it was . . . we have been approaching him through the aspect of doing business in China. His father is encouraging us in the sense that he is seeing Dhṛṣṭadyumna . . . like whenever we visit him, we come in our suits, and his father is seeing that . . . he is encouraging him also because he's taking some . . . what he calls a very, what would you say, a responsible position, attempting to do some business. So he's been giving us letters on his company's letterhead. Just like this is a letter to the director of the Department of Commerce of the United States. We've seen a number of people. We've been visiting different directors. First thing we did when we went back is, after meeting him, we got many books on China. Some of the examples are, just like this. We read about twenty*-five books. We've studied up very thoroughly and researched everything about China. Here is a book, The Religious Policy and Practice in Communist China . It describes everything about religion there. So we thoroughly read this book. Then there's other books, books on education, we read books on history . . . Prabhupāda: Chinese people, they are trying to raise their standard of civilization. Do they? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they . . . their philosophy is called dialectic materialism. They want to advance materially, and they . . . we have prepared one report of an interview with the president of a committee on United States and China relations. He's one of the leading experts in China. So after researching and studying all the educational, the libraries, all the different functions in China, we went and spoke with this gentleman. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: First we got a lot of information ourselves, so we'd be knowledgeable. We read for one month. We got . . . we wrote away to all the councils, we got hundreds of books like this, special reports about China. We read them, and then we went to meet this man, because he is the most knowledgeable, expert person on China in the United States. And we made up a report which we wanted to read to you, because it gives everything very nicely. It tells what China is doing now, and what our program can be for book distribution. Prabhupāda: No, what is their aim? After studying all these books, what do you think? What is the aim of China? What is the objective they are making progress towards? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their aim is that everyone should be materially comfortable. That no one . . . there should be no . . . Prabhupāda: In that case, they should, if they have got sense . . . just like in the whole world, these American people are materially comfortable. But why they are producing hippies now? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They see this as a fault of the system, capitalism. They say that capitalism means the enjoyment of the few at the . . . Prabhupāda: Materialism means capitalism. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, they want communistic materialism. In other words, by creating, forming communes, everyone will get equal portion of food and bedding and clothing and medicine. Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact. A man's tendency is that everyone wants to get more. So how they will check it? This is already proved in Russia. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They condemn Russia. They say Russia is a failure. Prabhupāda: And similarly, they will have to condemn. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's our conclusion. Prabhupāda: If they follow the wrong path, they will have the wrong result. This is not . . . *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their leader, Mao Tse*-tung, he was very austere, and he is very moral, and he has these purges where he takes the men who he sees are not . . . or who are trying to use their position for their own power, and he takes it away from them. And they are constantly going through these purges of their system to insure that no one enjoys more than others, at the expense of others. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Artificial, though. Prabhupāda: So that is artificial way of. Unless one is prepared to . . . just like why they are inducing persons to sacrifice their accumulated wealth for the state? Why? Communistic idea that everyone should be equal. So if somebody has more than others, they want to take it away. Just like in India this policy is now growing. So everyone should give away, but now it is being done by law, by force. But that will not stay. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We agree. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We also agree it's a failure. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is bound to fail. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you voluntarily give, it will be failure. You will try to find out ways how you can take everything . . . just like income tax. The government is trying to take more money from the public, and public is hiding them in black market. This is going on. Nobody is . . . even your Nixon, he also hidden some money from the income tax. Why? He is the head of the government. So one side, he is head of the government, try to take money from the public, but he personally, himself, he is hiding. Why this defect? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will say that the system encourages man's greed, whereas their system . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, system . . . if the . . . you cannot change the mind. If you have got mind to enjoy more, by force if I try to force you not to enjoy more, give to the state, this is a struggle. This is not perfect process. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that that will be corrected by education. Prabhupāda: Education . . . that means what is that education? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that the . . . they don't . . . of course, we say education means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Education means they must learn to sacrifice everything for the topmost. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they say the topmost is the general mass of everyone, the proletariat, all people combined. *Prabhupāda: That's all right, general. But you know how to make general mass of people happy. That example we give, that the whole body . . . you can make the whole body happy simply by supplying food to the stomach. That is the best way. And if you want to make happy every part of the body individual, that will never be successful. You must know where to touch. Just like the huge machine is going on by the expert manipulation of the pilot. He is pushing one works, immediately the plane becomes . . . it is . . . so you must know where to touch. If I am layman, I am put into that, then, instead of putting here, I shall put my here, and then it will go down, immediately " ohn*-ohn-ohn ," finished. So this is nature's way, that you supply food to the stomach, and the energy will be distributed every part. You supply water to the root of the tree, it will be supplied everywhere. That you must know. Otherwise, if you . . . just like if you do not know, a expert, not expert, so he's advised, "Give to, the food to the stomach." "And in where?" "No, in the hole of the body." If he does not, which hole, then he will put somewhere, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here. It will never act. Then you must know the science how to make everyone happy. If you do not know that, then your imperfect imagination will never be done, and that has become everywhere. Why there is difference of opinion even both of the communistic countries? Why there is difference of opinion between Russia and China? Because both of you do not know how to make everyone happy. That is the point. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: China has achieved great material strides in the last twenty years. There is no prostitution. They have wiped out flies, no more flies causing disease. There is . . . and they look to a very bitter past of exploitation at the hand of foreigners and internal civil war and great suffering and starvation. So when they look back over twenty years they see, "Oh, we have advanced greatly." So they are very satisfied. Prabhupāda: No, if they actually progressing, they will have to come to that point—that is natural—where, placing your service, you can serve everyone. That is the right conclusion. But we have got that right conclusion. If you take from us, you can make immediately. But if you want to wait by your research work, then you can waste your time. But you have to come to this point. That is a fact. Just like you have to give food to the mouth. If you do not know, out of rascaldom you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment . . . there are so many holes. You go on experimenting, and waste your time. But unless you come to this point that, "Food has to be supplied here," your all attempt will be failure. That you have to tell them. And because you cannot supersede nature's way . . . nature's way is, "The food must go through here." You cannot change it. You are not above nature. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They say that you can become above nature. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That will make them failure. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Oh, yes, they will fail. *Prabhupāda: That will make them failure. Tell them, then this will make them failure, "If you are so foolish that you want to go above nature, then you are fool number one." Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is not possible. That is not possible. Then you are following wrong path. If you are imagining like that, that "We have surpassed the laws of nature," then you are fool number one. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In that respect they are like the Americans and Russians. They think that we can overcome the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are just like the Americans and Russians in the same way. They are thinking we can overcome the stringent laws of nature. Prabhupāda: No, that is the foolishness. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). So long they will have this impression that they can overcome the laws of nature they will continue to become mūḍha . Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, another problem . . . Prabhupāda: In which way you have surpassed nature? First of all, if you are thinking like that, in which way you have surpassed the nature? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say: "For example, before we began our agricultural development, there was very poor agricultural produce all over the country due to lack of proper water. Now we have laid huge irrigation systems, and there is no more drought." Prabhupāda: Therefore that is nature's way. Nature supplies you water. That is nature's way. That means you are making perfect according to the nature's way. But nature give you water; you produce profusely. But if you want to go above the nature, you produce without water. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) It can't be done. Prabhupāda: Then we shall see that you have surpassed the laws of . . . the laws of nature is there must be water. Nature is supplying. And you are trying to imitate. But if you say that, "We can overpass the nature's law," then you produce without water. Then you'll be able. Then we shall see that you have gone above . . . this, you are following the nature's. That is not surpassing. That is following little properly. "Now you have arranged for water. That's very good. But if nature pours water, then you save so much labor. Do you know that, how nature will supply water profusely? You haven't got to make artificial arrangement for water. Do you know that?" Ask them. We know that. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Formerly their society was very much like the Vedic culture. There was the emperor and the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it was . . . the Chinese people were coming, taking knowledge from . . . everyone was coming. So now argument that, "If you are . . . you are following the nature's way. Nature supply water. That is a fact. Here is cloud. Nature will supply. Now, if you want to surpass nature, then you produce in the factory, without water, food grains. Then we shall understand that you can surpass. As you are producing instruments and so many other motorcars and this, that, so many, in the factory, that's all right. In the factory you produce food grains without water. Then you have surpassed nature." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can't do it. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No one can do it. Prabhupāda: Then where is the question of surpassing nature? Make them fool in every point, these rascals, by argument. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Unfortunately, they do not teach any philosophy anymore. They have done away with all . . . Prabhupāda: This is not philosophy. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. This is science. Prabhupāda: This philosophy, it is science. Without water you cannot produce. This is science. This is not imagination. So if you want to surpass nature, then you do practically. Why should you try to bring canal water or well water? Don't bring. You cannot surpass the laws of nature. That has to be accepted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their main point is that they want to manipulate expertly the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: That means let them waste their time. Therefore it requires many births to understand this law. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they're going away from this kind of understanding. They had a heritage of philosophical understanding, correct philosophical . . . they were very . . . for instance, their whole system during the time of Confucius . . . up until two or three hundred years ago their system was they had a monarchy, a king, an emperor, and the emperor was believed to be the representative of God. Prabhupāda: That is good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And it was Vedic. They had a brahmin community—they called them scholars—who were advising. And they had administrators, and they had workers. Now the current Communists, they are against that system. They say this system was the worst system of all because it made some big and some small. Because naturally it became . . . Prabhupāda: But you are doing the same thing. Otherwise, why you are reforming? Who is reforming unless the one class is very intelligent? The same system. You . . . your . . . what is your rascal's name? *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Mao Tse*-tung. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mao. Mao. Prabhupāda: So he is supposed to be intelligent. He is supposed to be intelligent. So the two classes already there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he says everyone can be equally intelligent. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But these classes must remain there—the teacher class and the student class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's what they do. They take the teachers . . . this is one of their programs. Actually, we have written a report which explains. They take the teachers, and they send the teachers out into the factory and into the farms for years. Prabhupāda: So anywhere you send, the student and teacher class is there. You change the name, you change the process, it doesn't matter, but the student class and teacher class will always remain. That is your foolishness. You are simply changing different names. But originally, as planned by nature, that is always there. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They say let the factory worker teach the teacher. Prabhupāda: Anyway, teacher class, rascal, it is teacher class. You make a teacher class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say everyone should be teachers. Prabhupāda: That "Should be" means not. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they are making everyone teachers. Prabhupāda: And this "making" means not. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They are trying to make. Prabhupāda: That is all right. The classes, two classes, are there. You cannot change that. "trying," "making," means two. Hari-śauri: It's artificial. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like they let the students teach the teachers. Prabhupāda: That's right. So the teachers . . . sometimes you become teacher, sometimes I become teacher. What is this? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're trying to create a society where there are no superior*-inferior. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Classless society. Prabhupāda: They are taking themselves the superior position to make equal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Yes. That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like some of the rascal svāmīs come here that "There is no teacher of . . . no require teacher, no need of books." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then why do we need them? Prabhupāda: And these rascals are writing books, that "There is no need of book." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That happened. One svāmī said: "Now you . . . meditation means don't think of anything." So then one of our men at the meeting raised his hand and said: "Then why do we need you?" So he got very angry. He said: "If the mind should do nothing, what do we need you for?" Prabhupāda: So what was his reply? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He told his men to usher our man out. His men got very agitated because there was no reply. He couldn't give a reply. So they asked our man to leave for disturbing the sleeping of the public. Prabhupāda: Anyway, the whole world is rascal. They will manufacture and spoil time, their own time and others' time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, we did a report telling . . . we wanted to read this to you. It gives you an idea of what are the possibilities of spreading your books or Kṛṣṇa consciousness in China. We made up a report for you. Do you want to hear it? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, you want to read it, Dhṛṣṭadyumna? 'Cause it is actually very useful, if not now, in the future of our Soc . . . this report is based on a lot of research. Read. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . that if they are rascals, then don't try. You see? Reject them. But there is good potency in your country. You do peacefully here. If they are rascals, means stubborn rascals . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You cannot imagine how rascal they are. That's why we wrote this report. I mean . . . Prabhupāda: Then don't try. Don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a . . . the Christians, they have a boat two hundred miles off the China coast, and they put little Bibles in cellophane bags and let the Bibles float into China. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Balloons. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Balloons. That's how hard it is to preach there. Prabhupāda: That is also nonsense. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's nonsense, but I mean the point is how difficult it is. We have . . . *Prabhupāda: Then don't try. Don't waste time. Don't try. Better try in your country. You have got enough field, and they are intelligent and they are favorable. So why should we waste our time? There is no need. If you make your country, America, God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious—they are already—that will be example to the whole world. These men, rascals' program, will be failure, finished, this, today or tomorrow. They'll never be successful. It is not . . . that is not possible. If they have so foolishly declared that, "We are going above the laws of nature," they're first*-class rascals, which is impossible. What they have conquered over the nature? These rascals will not die? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they'll still die. *Prabhupāda: Then? Then what is this? The rascals will not become old men? So what they have surpassed, laws of nature? What way? Simply making the teachers student and student teacher. Simply wasting time. Better you utilize your father's position, but for introducing our books to these high*-class men. Just you are trying to introduce books in the university libraries, similarly, you try to introduce these books to the high class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (aside to Dhṛṣṭadyumna) Do you think your father would give letters of introduction . . .? Prabhupāda: And that is not difficult. These men, they have got enough money. If they spend one thousand dollar for our books, that is nothing for them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of your disciples, Praghoṣa, he's the biggest book distributor, practically. Tripurāri trained him up. He is now starting a program of meeting with these executives and doing just this. He is working in New York, and he's developing a program like this. Prabhupāda: Now in India also they are trying. Yaśomatī . . . Yaśodānandana's report is that he approached one head librarian in Andhra Pradesh and . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Karnataka. Prabhupāda: Karnataka. Karnataka province, educated province, Karnataka, South India, Karnataka, very educated. So he has immediately ordered thirty sets of books in different libraries. He has appreciated so much. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The professors in Bombay, some of them are already reviewing Prabhupāda's books very favorably. Prabhupāda: So you just touch the topmost men. But if, somehow or other, if you see some of the topmost men of the China, "You kindly read our books at your leisure." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can't approach those men. Prabhupāda: Then give it up. If it is too difficult, don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not only difficult, it's impossible. Prabhupāda: Then don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Completely impossible. Prabhupāda: Give up this idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It may be possible in fifty years from now, but not now. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Our descendants will try for that. But let us try where it is favorable. Don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, we were really, you know, just looking for any loophole, but there is no loophole. Prabhupāda: No hole. That's all right. We don't care for it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The man we spoke to, when he heard what we wanted to do, he said: "Boys, you're up against the wall." He said: "You're up against the Great Wall." China has a wall called the Great Wall. He said: "You've come up against the Great Wall." He says: "You'll never cross it." Prabhupāda: No, they'll be . . . nature's law is so strong that they are also trying to knock their head in the wall. They will themselves break their head. The laws of nature is the same. If you try to break the walls from this side and if they try to break the walls from that side, both of them will lose their head. So if they are so foolish . . . they are foolish. Everywhere such foolish men are there. They are trying to overcome the laws of nature. That is the greatest foolishness. That is the greatest foolishness. Just like government has got police force, military force, and if somebody tries to become . . . violate the laws of government by defying police force and military force, that is futile. Is it possible that, "I shall defy the government laws"? No, there is police force. There is military. "I don't care for that." It is foolishness. It is simply foolishness. Similarly, these laws of nature means the force of the Supreme. So if you want to defy, you may waste your time. It is not possible. And practically, Kṛṣṇa says: "Here I have enforced this miserable condition of material life." *Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu (BG 13.9). First of all surpass this, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . Then talk of surpassing the laws of nature. Can the Communists overcome, stopping old age? No Communist will be old man? Then what way you have surpassed the laws of nature? No Communist will die? Then where is your surpassing laws of nature? Ultimately you are under the grip of laws of nature. So what is the meaning of this foolish talking, that "I am going to surpass the laws of nature"? Show us first of all. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their goal is not so broad. They just want to control the flooding of the river. Prabhupāda: That means the little children's policy. Children, just like imagining so many things, "I shall do that. I shall do." The potter's imagination. You know that? Potter's imagination? You do not know the story? One potter is selling earthen pots, and he is saying that "Now, these two paisā , it has cost me one paisā . I shall make one paisā profit. Then I can make such profit. I shall invest again. I shall make another profit, another profit. In this way I shall become millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife shall be very obedient. And if he does not become obedient, I shall give him a kick like this." And he . . . what was . . . one pot was there; he kicked that pot and broke. (laughter) It broke. "Oh, again I am poor man." So this is going on, imagination. Imagination . . . "I shall become so great that I shall kick Kṛṣṇa's law," and whatever pot he had, broken. That's all. Rascals, simply rascals. If anyone thinks like that, that "I shall surpass the laws of nature," then he's madman. He's madman. So what is the use of dealing with madmen? And as soon as you challenge them that, "Show us that you have surpassed the laws of nature," "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do." That's all. This is their reply. *So it is better to avoid such men. But if you peacefully you can introduce, "All right, you will do. You are wonderful men, so kindly if you read some pages of this, it is not very costly. You can keep. At leisure hour you can read," in this way, imploring, then they will be benefited. That much we can do to any rascal. He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya dūrāt caitanya*-candra-caraṇe (Caitanya-candrāmṛta). "Oh, you are so nice; *therefore I am flattering you. I humbly obeisance. Kindly hear one thing. Keep some books. It is not very costly." Bās . This much you can do. And let them become puffed up by their false notions. But if they keep some books, sometimes they will read or their sons will read. That's all. Therefore I am stressing so much on books, that if the puffed*-up rascals take some book and sometimes, if they read, he'll be benefited, perfectly benefited. So distribute these books anywhere possible. It doesn't matter where it is. The same process. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya . The books will sell, that "You are rascal number one, you set aside whatever you learned. Read this." He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya : "You are very learned, but forget what you have learned, all rascaldom. Try to read this book." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate : "A rascal fool is very beautifully dressed, very nice seating. But his rascaldom will be disclosed as soon as he will speak." So these rascals, as soon as they speak, "We shall surpass the laws of nature," then we can understand what kind of rascals. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ . By their . . . these words we can take, "Oh, rascaldom," at once. "I shall break the wall. I shall push the mountains with head." It is like that. If somebody is thinking that "I shall push the Himalayan mountains by knocking with my head," then we can understand. So where it is? A rascal, the innocent, he is also rascal. But innocent is eager to become intelligent, so there we shall deal. And the stubborn atheists, they are dviṣat . They cannot be corrected immediately, unless they become ruined. (break) . . . their standard of life. Try for that. Concentrate in your country. There is no need of going . . . I was written, asking you that, that "If it is very hard job, don't try for that, useless waste of time." Incorrigible. So what is the use of going to a person . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We also researched a little bit about Russia. After we saw how it looked here—it was impossible—we were looking towards Russia. So we did some research on Russia also. There it's a little bit more open, but it's also, in terms of any kind of broad program, it is practically impossible. For example, distribution of books in Russia, there's only one company that buys the books. There's one import . . . Prabhupāda: So let him, one. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And it's not even done personally. You do it through the mail. They don't . . . it's not a question of going and personally showing the books. Prabhupāda: Oh, then don't send. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are waste . . . Prabhupāda: Don't waste time and money. It is not possible. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It doesn't require . . . you can't influence a per . . . they don't have the power. A university does not have the power to buy the books. Prabhupāda: Then you do that. Don't do which is impossible. No, don't try for it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And China is ten times more closed than Russia. Prabhupāda: No, then stop this policy. Ask Gopāla not to go there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He can get the books in Russia . . . Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Through the mail Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . through the mail just as sucessfully as by going personally. Prabhupāda: Hmm. And that's nice. Try for that. (end) Bhūrijana: (offers obeisances) *Prabhupāda: So I was talking with Siddha*-svarup. So while you are all here, so what is the reason . . . (indistinct) . . .? We should work conjointly. Bhūrijana: And . . .? Prabhupāda: Jointly work. Don't make division. Bhūrijana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What is the misunderstanding, settle up. This way. Bhūrijana: I spoke to him a bit last night, and he said, "If my instructions contradict Prabhupāda's . . ." Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhūrijana: He said to me last night, "If my instructions to you . . ." something like that, "contradict Prabhupāda's, then don't follow my instructions." (laughs) Prabhupāda: Who said? Bhūrijana: That's what he said. I mean, if he . . . Prabhupāda: I do not understand. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If he said that to Bhūrijana that, "If my instruction is contrary to Prabhupāda's instruction, then don't follow my instructions," that is to say that either he thinks that his instruction is the same as yours, or his instruction is different from yours and is not . . . (indistinct) . . . so far as . . . I spoke with Gurukṛpā Mahārāja, who's supposed to be GBC for Hawaii. He said that he has deviated. Siddha*-svarūpānanda Mahārāja has deviated. He has created a faction. And we're working together in ISKCON. So many individuals, we're working together to please Prabhupāda mutually. Bhūrijana: Yes. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it's up to Siddha*-svarūpānanda Mahārāja's group to set the same standard that everyone has to accept. Bhūrijana: That seems to be the . . . *Prabhupāda: Now they are working together. Why Siddha*-svarūpā Mahārāja cannot remain here? Bhūrijana: I think he thinks everyone is in māyā , I think. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It doesn't matter what he thinks. He's a disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) Bhūrijana: Yes. He causes trouble to Prabhupāda is not good. *Prabhupāda: The Siddha*-svarūpa group, they do not like to say clear. Is it not? Bhūrijana: Yeah, I see that. Very clearly I see that, yeah. Prabhupāda: So? What is the reason? Bhūrijana: What is the . . .? Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Bhūrijana: So would you like me to do anything? What would you like me to do? I know I don't want to be independent. *Prabhupāda: Why you are inclined to follow Siddha*-svarūpa, your wife and you? What is special attraction? Bhūrijana: I think we needed . . . we needed some . . . we couldn't always be corresponding with you. I needed some personal instruction, so I took it. Prabhupāda: So first of all tell what is the special attraction. Your wife said that their instruction is very clear. So what is the distinction between clear and ambiguous? What do you find ambiguous and what do you find clear? What is that? Bhūrijana: I think the part I found clear is the more introspective points about humility, and changing one's desire . . . Prabhupāda: Humility means not to follow the instruction of guru ? That is not . . .? Bhūrijana: No, that is not humility. Prabhupāda: Then I'm asking you what is the special attraction. You say that . . . your wife says it is very clear. What is that clear and ambiguous? Bhūrijana: You mean what is ambiguous on . . . I mean, what is she saying that is ambiguous, or what . . . Prabhupāda: No. You say that is very clear what others are telling you. Now what is that ambiguous, what is that clear? Bhūrijana: The clearness may be a deeper understanding to want to be humble. A deeper understanding to want to . . . *Prabhupāda: Humble, but if you do not follow your spiritual master's instruction, if you follow others, then where is the humbleness? You say yes. This is yes, this is yes . . . (indistinct) . . . you said that your wife says that what Siddha*-svarūpa says, it is very clear and easy, and others are not so clear. Is it not? What is that clear Siddha-svarūpa says, and what is not clear? Bhūrijana: He says chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So who says that you don't chant? Bhūrijana: Maybe the emphasis wasn't so much on the chanting, even though everyone says harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam ( CC Adi 17.21), everyone just chants their sixteen rounds a day, chants a half hour ārati in the evening and half hour ārati in the morning. *Prabhupāda: So what do you want more? What is your program? Twenty*-four hours? Bhūrijana: I like more kīrtana than that. Prabhupāda: So you don't like to sell books. Bhūrijana: No, I think I like very much. I mean, I think I would like to. Prabhupāda: So what is difference? Bhūrijana: Between selling books and kīrtana ? Prabhupāda: No, no. Between others and you. Where is the difference? Why don't you point out that, "This is the point, we differ." What is that point? Bhūrijana: Well maybe the point about more kīrtana or less kīrtana . Prabhupāda: So if you chant more, is there objection? Bhūrijana: No. Prabhupāda: Then where is the objection? Has anyone objected, chant more? Bhūrijana: No. Prabhupāda: Then where is the objection? What is the point of difference? Bhūrijana: I think there's no point of difference. Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that we find these instructions more clear? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You say that there's no point of difference, but then you choose that his instruction is more clear. There's some contradiction. Bhūrijana: It's just that emphasis that was given to Hari . . . to chanting. Prabhupāda: What is the difference? Bhūrijana: For myself, I know I was off track, and I know that in my heart I built up an enmity towards your disciples and thinking that they . . . that by their distributing books they were making people angry at Kṛṣṇa and . . . Prabhupāda: That is the real point. That is the real point. Bhūrijana: That's what I felt. See, when I was in Hong Kong, people I would meet, they used to yell . . . people, they'd yell at me, "What have you done to Kṛṣṇa?" Some Indians used to say that. People we'd meet, they'd tell us they see the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees and they hate Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Bhūrijana: Well, this was . . . I remember one specific time when I was speaking to one businessman who was helping us and . . . Prabhupāda: He said that, "We hate Kṛṣṇa"? Bhūrijana: No, no. He said that, "Your members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're making people in Australia hate Kṛṣṇa. They make people inimical." Making people inimical to Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They feel threatened simply that we're preaching something which will discourage their sinful way of life. Therefore they feel threatened. Not they're hating. It hurts. Their argument is that because of our strong emphasis on preaching and book distrubtion, they say therefore that the mass of people, they have a bad impression of Kṛṣṇa. Bhūrijana: And also because . . . Prabhupāda: Because we are selling books. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because we're selling books. *Bhūrijana: Not so much the selling books. Maybe because of the emphasis on taking . . . how much money can be taken. Like if someone says on the street, "Please give me a donation." So they give him a donation. "No, you must give more," and more and more. So the people think that the devotees are only interested in getting money, and they get a bad impression that ISKCON is a money*-making movement. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We're selling one half a million large*-size books each year. Hari-śauri: The thing is that the materialists will always point out that they see the devotees, and we say that we renounce everything, but they don't understand that renunciation means to take everything and give it to Kṛṣṇa. So when . . . just like that time there was such a great commotion when we hired that Rolls Royce to take Your Divine Grace from the airport to the temple. So in the papers they didn't put anything that you said. They simply put "His Divine Grace is arriving in a Rolls Royce," like that. So this is the general attitude of the common mass of people. Prabhupāda: That is envious. So if they sell books, so that is making Kṛṣṇa unpopular? Bhūrijana: But one must learn to be a good book salesman, I think. Prabhupāda: But selling book, Kṛṣṇa, does it mean that the booksellers are creating unpopular opinion? Does it mean? Bhūrijana: Automatically, no. Prabhupāda: When you say that they're making enemies because they're pushing the sales, what is the wrong there? Actually, I can so far understand that you do not like to sell books, or you cannot sell books. Bhūrijana: Actually, I've never really tried. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhūrijana: I've never really tried, 'cause I was in . . . Prabhupāda: Tried? Bhūrijana: I've never attempted very much. Prabhupāda: Those who are selling books, you think of them they're not very advanced. Bhūrijana: Errm, I don't think they can do it for very long. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhūrijana: I don't think that they can continue for a very long time if they are not advanced. Prabhupāda: But actually they're doing. So why do you say they cannot continue long? Hari-śauri: No, he's saying that if they weren't . . . that they must be advanced, actually, if you look at it in the proper perspective. For those that were continually distributing, then the . . . (indistinct) . . . it's obvious that they must be advanced. Otherwise one could not do it for a very long time. Bhūrijana: When people . . . also it used to make me angry when people would collect money for . . . using lying terms, I mean say that they're collecting money for the welfare center here, or to feed the children here, or to bus the children there, and they'd collect money like that, but it wasn't very straightforward. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda has many times given the instruction to the devotees that we should try as much as possible to distribute the books on their own merit. (break) . . . wanting this knowledge. Bhūrijana: But they . . . (break) . . . so much of the collecting was collecting, not distributing books. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, but the point is that Prabhupāda's instruction is there. Bhūrijana: But all the devotees want to hear is Prabhupāda also says "by hook or by crook." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes it may be required to interest someone in a book, that they may find out their interest. Just like people are interested in philanthropic activity. Prabhupāda: Just like our . . . what is his name? Hari-śauri: Tripurāri? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Some lady inquired, "Is there any instruction about this power shortage?" "Oh, yes." (laughs) So she purchased, and the next day she said: "There is nothing about power shortage." So suppose Tripurāri has sold one book. The lady inquired, "Is there any Vedic instruction about power shortage?" And he said: "Yes." So you think it is wrong. That is your version. Bhūrijana: I think a simple lie like that is not bad. Prabhupāda: But a devotee's view is that whatever may be her inquiry, if she purchases one book, she'll be benefited. This is the point. But you, as big moralist, you, (laughs) you think that he has cheated. He has not cheated. He has benefited her, that somehow or other he has given a book to her. Someday she'll read and she'll benefit. But you people, you think no why we should sell like that, that "Yes, there is solution of power shortage." Actually there is, but you think that he has lied. Just like there are . . . sometimes the father's child is suffering from fever. So the father wants that the child may take the medicine and promises, "You take the medicine. I'll give you this cake." The purpose is not to give the cake, a cake. The purpose is the child may take the medicine. That is the purpose. But when the father promises that, "If you take the medicine I'll give you this cake." But cake is dangerous for the child who is suffering from fever, but still the father allures him, "If you take the medicine and I'll give the cake." So is the father wrong or right? Bhūrijana: No. Prabhupāda: So similarly, similarly, if somehow or other one can sell one book to a person, it is good for him. Don't take how he is selling, but he's giving the book to that person and he's paying something, and that is good. But big moralist, they cannot understand. They'll see, "Why the father has spoken lie to his son? He's not a good father." They'll mistake. Father is always friend. Father cannot be enemy. But for the benefit of the rascal child sometimes he has to say like that, that "If you take the medicine I'll give you this cake." So those who are mundane moralist, they cannot understand these things, because they are mundane platform. The another example is that Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. He was asked by Kṛṣṇa that, "You speak lie to Dronācārya that, 'Your son is dead.' " Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused. For this he had to see hell. He was more moralist than Kṛṣṇa. For this moral activity he had to visit hell. This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is . . . why we are pushing, so much giving stress on books? Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles. Just as Arjuna did. Arjuna was arguing with Kṛṣṇa that, "This killing of my relatives, it is very abominable. Better I beg and maintain myself than I kill my relatives and become a king." Did he not say? So that is ordinary man's argument. But as Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused to speak lie . . . so, and Arjuna, in spite of his conviction that "It is sinful to kill my relatives," he still agreed to kill. Why? Bhūrijana: That is supreme moral, Kṛṣṇa's desire. Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa desires, if one does, he's above all this material. But it should not be manufactured. The thing is that, "Our spiritual master wants to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he has repeatedly stressed to distribute books, we shall distribute books by any means," that is good. That is good. And if you become moralist that, "Oh, they're taking this means, that means for selling of book, so I'm big moralist. I'm bigger than him." Bhūrijana: I don't think there is so much enmity because of the books themselves. Prabhupāda: No, I think that . . . I do not know what they are doing, but I have information that they're not selling books. Bhūrijana: Some, I think. I think some. Prabhupāda: But not . . . Bhūrijana: Comparable amount. Certainly not. Prabhupāda: Yes. Others who were transgressing the moral principle, they were selling more books. Bhūrijana: Much more. Prabhupāda: And those who are big moralists, they could not. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're also distributing one pamphlet printed by Siddha*-svarūpānanda. And then if they like, then they can buy one of Prabhupāda's books. Prabhupāda's book comes second. Prabhupāda: Sometimes I've heard so many things. Bhūrijana: But they give those away for free. I mean, just in the sense that someone maybe doesn't want to purchase anything, so they give him something for free about Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: First they do that. Bhūrijana: Only because it's free. Not that a . . . as far as I know. Prabhupāda: They get knowledge free, then why they should purchase? If you give them the opportunity that we take material, knowledge free, then why they will purchase? Bhūrijana: Like if we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious without following the rules and regulations, why follow the rules and regulations? That's what I was thinking a while ago. Prabhupāda: They should follow what their spiritual master says. Book selling, there is no question of moral and immoral. We must sell. Just like in fighting. Where there is fight, the soldiers, to gain victory, there is no question of moral and immoral. He must gain victory. Bhūrijana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think the thing I understand least is that if they are not doing what you want . . . I mean . . . I'm sitting before you now, and you're telling me and I'm listening, and you are my spiritual master, and I must accept. Prabhupāda: We want that book selling must be increased as much as possible. This we want. The same principle: let the child take medicine, never mind the father is speaking lies. That is . . . because as soon as he takes the medicine he'll be benefited. End justifies the means. End is that everyone should have a Kṛṣṇa literature. Doesn't matter what is the means. Because he has taken one Kṛṣṇa literature, that justifies everything. This is the principle. Bhūrijana: How about the just collecting without giving any literature? Just collecting. Three months ago I saw it in Australia, with a lying line, too, I mean not telling the truth. And that wasn't very long ago. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Sometimes the devotees just distribute with incense. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: They go out and distribute incense. Bhūrijana: Nothing. Hari-śauri: They collect and distribute incense. Sometimes they don't distribute books. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And then maybe if they're having to pay off a loan on the temple. The general instruction is there, and all the devotees are well aware of it, that Prabhupāda's books have first priority. Everyone knows it. The consciousness is there. It's not a consciousness of not giving anything and taking. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda's point is that if you see fault with the method of implementing the spiritual master's instructions, you'll fail to follow the instructions. Prabhupāda: No, the point is not that they have not done any wrong. Don't think like that. But my point, that is, my instruction is the books must be pushed. Bhūrijana: I understand. In other words, if you think they're doing it wrong, you do it better. If you see the wrong thing . . . but do it. Make sure you do it, but do it better without the wrong, then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhūrijana: I feel that this is . . . huh. Prabhupāda: Besides that . . . (end) Bhūrijana: (offers obeisances) *Prabhupāda: So I was talking with Siddha*-svarup. So while you are all here, so what is the reason . . . (indistinct) . . .? We should work conjointly. Bhūrijana: And . . .? Prabhupāda: Jointly work. Don't make division. Bhūrijana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What is the misunderstanding, settle up. This way. Bhūrijana: I spoke to him a bit last night, and he said, "If my instructions contradict Prabhupāda's . . ." Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhūrijana: He said to me last night, "If my instructions to you . . ." something like that, "contradict Prabhupāda's, then don't follow my instructions." (laughs) Prabhupāda: Who said? Bhūrijana: That's what he said. I mean, if he . . . Prabhupāda: I do not understand. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If he said that to Bhūrijana that, "If my instruction is contrary to Prabhupāda's instruction, then don't follow my instructions," that is to say that either he thinks that his instruction is the same as yours, or his instruction is different from yours and is not . . . (indistinct) . . . so far as . . . I spoke with Gurukṛpā Mahārāja, who's supposed to be GBC for Hawaii. He said that he has deviated. Siddha*-svarūpānanda Mahārāja has deviated. He has created a faction. And we're working together in ISKCON. So many individuals, we're working together to please Prabhupāda mutually. Bhūrijana: Yes. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it's up to Siddha*-svarūpānanda Mahārāja's group to set the same standard that everyone has to accept. Bhūrijana: That seems to be the . . . *Prabhupāda: Now they are working together. Why Siddha*-svarūpā Mahārāja cannot remain here? Bhūrijana: I think he thinks everyone is in māyā , I think. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It doesn't matter what he thinks. He's a disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) Bhūrijana: Yes. He causes trouble to Prabhupāda is not good. *Prabhupāda: The Siddha*-svarūpa group, they do not like to say clear. Is it not? Bhūrijana: Yeah, I see that. Very clearly I see that, yeah. Prabhupāda: So? What is the reason? Bhūrijana: What is the . . .? Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Bhūrijana: So would you like me to do anything? What would you like me to do? I know I don't want to be independent. *Prabhupāda: Why you are inclined to follow Siddha*-svarūpa, your wife and you? What is special attraction? Bhūrijana: I think we needed . . . we needed some . . . we couldn't always be corresponding with you. I needed some personal instruction, so I took it. Prabhupāda: So first of all tell what is the special attraction. Your wife said that their instruction is very clear. So what is the distinction between clear and ambiguous? What do you find ambiguous and what do you find clear? What is that? Bhūrijana: I think the part I found clear is the more introspective points about humility, and changing one's desire . . . Prabhupāda: Humility means not to follow the instruction of guru ? That is not . . .? Bhūrijana: No, that is not humility. Prabhupāda: Then I'm asking you what is the special attraction. You say that . . . your wife says it is very clear. What is that clear and ambiguous? Bhūrijana: You mean what is ambiguous on . . . I mean, what is she saying that is ambiguous, or what . . . Prabhupāda: No. You say that is very clear what others are telling you. Now what is that ambiguous, what is that clear? Bhūrijana: The clearness may be a deeper understanding to want to be humble. A deeper understanding to want to . . . *Prabhupāda: Humble, but if you do not follow your spiritual master's instruction, if you follow others, then where is the humbleness? You say yes. This is yes, this is yes . . . (indistinct) . . . you said that your wife says that what Siddha*-svarūpa says, it is very clear and easy, and others are not so clear. Is it not? What is that clear Siddha-svarūpa says, and what is not clear? Bhūrijana: He says chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So who says that you don't chant? Bhūrijana: Maybe the emphasis wasn't so much on the chanting, even though everyone says harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam ( CC Adi 17.21), everyone just chants their sixteen rounds a day, chants a half hour ārati in the evening and half hour ārati in the morning. *Prabhupāda: So what do you want more? What is your program? Twenty*-four hours? Bhūrijana: I like more kīrtana than that. Prabhupāda: So you don't like to sell books. Bhūrijana: No, I think I like very much. I mean, I think I would like to. Prabhupāda: So what is difference? Bhūrijana: Between selling books and kīrtana ? Prabhupāda: No, no. Between others and you. Where is the difference? Why don't you point out that, "This is the point, we differ." What is that point? Bhūrijana: Well maybe the point about more kīrtana or less kīrtana . Prabhupāda: So if you chant more, is there objection? Bhūrijana: No. Prabhupāda: Then where is the objection? Has anyone objected, chant more? Bhūrijana: No. Prabhupāda: Then where is the objection? What is the point of difference? Bhūrijana: I think there's no point of difference. Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that we find these instructions more clear? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You say that there's no point of difference, but then you choose that his instruction is more clear. There's some contradiction. Bhūrijana: It's just that emphasis that was given to Hari . . . to chanting. Prabhupāda: What is the difference? Bhūrijana: For myself, I know I was off track, and I know that in my heart I built up an enmity towards your disciples and thinking that they . . . that by their distributing books they were making people angry at Kṛṣṇa and . . . Prabhupāda: That is the real point. That is the real point. Bhūrijana: That's what I felt. See, when I was in Hong Kong, people I would meet, they used to yell . . . people, they'd yell at me, "What have you done to Kṛṣṇa?" Some Indians used to say that. People we'd meet, they'd tell us they see the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees and they hate Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Bhūrijana: Well, this was . . . I remember one specific time when I was speaking to one businessman who was helping us and . . . Prabhupāda: He said that, "We hate Kṛṣṇa"? Bhūrijana: No, no. He said that, "Your members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're making people in Australia hate Kṛṣṇa. They make people inimical." Making people inimical to Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They feel threatened simply that we're preaching something which will discourage their sinful way of life. Therefore they feel threatened. Not they're hating. It hurts. Their argument is that because of our strong emphasis on preaching and book distrubtion, they say therefore that the mass of people, they have a bad impression of Kṛṣṇa. Bhūrijana: And also because . . . Prabhupāda: Because we are selling books. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because we're selling books. *Bhūrijana: Not so much the selling books. Maybe because of the emphasis on taking . . . how much money can be taken. Like if someone says on the street, "Please give me a donation." So they give him a donation. "No, you must give more," and more and more. So the people think that the devotees are only interested in getting money, and they get a bad impression that ISKCON is a money*-making movement. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We're selling one half a million large*-size books each year. Hari-śauri: The thing is that the materialists will always point out that they see the devotees, and we say that we renounce everything, but they don't understand that renunciation means to take everything and give it to Kṛṣṇa. So when . . . just like that time there was such a great commotion when we hired that Rolls Royce to take Your Divine Grace from the airport to the temple. So in the papers they didn't put anything that you said. They simply put "His Divine Grace is arriving in a Rolls Royce," like that. So this is the general attitude of the common mass of people. Prabhupāda: That is envious. So if they sell books, so that is making Kṛṣṇa unpopular? Bhūrijana: But one must learn to be a good book salesman, I think. Prabhupāda: But selling book, Kṛṣṇa, does it mean that the booksellers are creating unpopular opinion? Does it mean? Bhūrijana: Automatically, no. Prabhupāda: When you say that they're making enemies because they're pushing the sales, what is the wrong there? Actually, I can so far understand that you do not like to sell books, or you cannot sell books. Bhūrijana: Actually, I've never really tried. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhūrijana: I've never really tried, 'cause I was in . . . Prabhupāda: Tried? Bhūrijana: I've never attempted very much. Prabhupāda: Those who are selling books, you think of them they're not very advanced. Bhūrijana: Errm, I don't think they can do it for very long. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhūrijana: I don't think that they can continue for a very long time if they are not advanced. Prabhupāda: But actually they're doing. So why do you say they cannot continue long? Hari-śauri: No, he's saying that if they weren't . . . that they must be advanced, actually, if you look at it in the proper perspective. For those that were continually distributing, then the . . . (indistinct) . . . it's obvious that they must be advanced. Otherwise one could not do it for a very long time. Bhūrijana: When people . . . also it used to make me angry when people would collect money for . . . using lying terms, I mean say that they're collecting money for the welfare center here, or to feed the children here, or to bus the children there, and they'd collect money like that, but it wasn't very straightforward. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda has many times given the instruction to the devotees that we should try as much as possible to distribute the books on their own merit. (break) . . . wanting this knowledge. Bhūrijana: But they . . . (break) . . . so much of the collecting was collecting, not distributing books. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, but the point is that Prabhupāda's instruction is there. Bhūrijana: But all the devotees want to hear is Prabhupāda also says "by hook or by crook." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes it may be required to interest someone in a book, that they may find out their interest. Just like people are interested in philanthropic activity. Prabhupāda: Just like our . . . what is his name? Hari-śauri: Tripurāri? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Some lady inquired, "Is there any instruction about this power shortage?" "Oh, yes." (laughs) So she purchased, and the next day she said: "There is nothing about power shortage." So suppose Tripurāri has sold one book. The lady inquired, "Is there any Vedic instruction about power shortage?" And he said: "Yes." So you think it is wrong. That is your version. Bhūrijana: I think a simple lie like that is not bad. Prabhupāda: But a devotee's view is that whatever may be her inquiry, if she purchases one book, she'll be benefited. This is the point. But you, as big moralist, you, (laughs) you think that he has cheated. He has not cheated. He has benefited her, that somehow or other he has given a book to her. Someday she'll read and she'll benefit. But you people, you think no why we should sell like that, that "Yes, there is solution of power shortage." Actually there is, but you think that he has lied. Just like there are . . . sometimes the father's child is suffering from fever. So the father wants that the child may take the medicine and promises, "You take the medicine. I'll give you this cake." The purpose is not to give the cake, a cake. The purpose is the child may take the medicine. That is the purpose. But when the father promises that, "If you take the medicine I'll give you this cake." But cake is dangerous for the child who is suffering from fever, but still the father allures him, "If you take the medicine and I'll give the cake." So is the father wrong or right? Bhūrijana: No. Prabhupāda: So similarly, similarly, if somehow or other one can sell one book to a person, it is good for him. Don't take how he is selling, but he's giving the book to that person and he's paying something, and that is good. But big moralist, they cannot understand. They'll see, "Why the father has spoken lie to his son? He's not a good father." They'll mistake. Father is always friend. Father cannot be enemy. But for the benefit of the rascal child sometimes he has to say like that, that "If you take the medicine I'll give you this cake." So those who are mundane moralist, they cannot understand these things, because they are mundane platform. The another example is that Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. He was asked by Kṛṣṇa that, "You speak lie to Dronācārya that, 'Your son is dead.' " Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused. For this he had to see hell. He was more moralist than Kṛṣṇa. For this moral activity he had to visit hell. This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is . . . why we are pushing, so much giving stress on books? Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles. Just as Arjuna did. Arjuna was arguing with Kṛṣṇa that, "This killing of my relatives, it is very abominable. Better I beg and maintain myself than I kill my relatives and become a king." Did he not say? So that is ordinary man's argument. But as Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused to speak lie . . . so, and Arjuna, in spite of his conviction that "It is sinful to kill my relatives," he still agreed to kill. Why? Bhūrijana: That is supreme moral, Kṛṣṇa's desire. Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa desires, if one does, he's above all this material. But it should not be manufactured. The thing is that, "Our spiritual master wants to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he has repeatedly stressed to distribute books, we shall distribute books by any means," that is good. That is good. And if you become moralist that, "Oh, they're taking this means, that means for selling of book, so I'm big moralist. I'm bigger than him." Bhūrijana: I don't think there is so much enmity because of the books themselves. Prabhupāda: No, I think that . . . I do not know what they are doing, but I have information that they're not selling books. Bhūrijana: Some, I think. I think some. Prabhupāda: But not . . . Bhūrijana: Comparable amount. Certainly not. Prabhupāda: Yes. Others who were transgressing the moral principle, they were selling more books. Bhūrijana: Much more. Prabhupāda: And those who are big moralists, they could not. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're also distributing one pamphlet printed by Siddha*-svarūpānanda. And then if they like, then they can buy one of Prabhupāda's books. Prabhupāda's book comes second. Prabhupāda: Sometimes I've heard so many things. Bhūrijana: But they give those away for free. I mean, just in the sense that someone maybe doesn't want to purchase anything, so they give him something for free about Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: First they do that. Bhūrijana: Only because it's free. Not that a . . . as far as I know. Prabhupāda: They get knowledge free, then why they should purchase? If you give them the opportunity that we take material, knowledge free, then why they will purchase? Bhūrijana: Like if we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious without following the rules and regulations, why follow the rules and regulations? That's what I was thinking a while ago. Prabhupāda: They should follow what their spiritual master says. Book selling, there is no question of moral and immoral. We must sell. Just like in fighting. Where there is fight, the soldiers, to gain victory, there is no question of moral and immoral. He must gain victory. Bhūrijana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think the thing I understand least is that if they are not doing what you want . . . I mean . . . I'm sitting before you now, and you're telling me and I'm listening, and you are my spiritual master, and I must accept. Prabhupāda: We want that book selling must be increased as much as possible. This we want. The same principle: let the child take medicine, never mind the father is speaking lies. That is . . . because as soon as he takes the medicine he'll be benefited. End justifies the means. End is that everyone should have a Kṛṣṇa literature. Doesn't matter what is the means. Because he has taken one Kṛṣṇa literature, that justifies everything. This is the principle. Bhūrijana: How about the just collecting without giving any literature? Just collecting. Three months ago I saw it in Australia, with a lying line, too, I mean not telling the truth. And that wasn't very long ago. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Sometimes the devotees just distribute with incense. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: They go out and distribute incense. Bhūrijana: Nothing. Hari-śauri: They collect and distribute incense. Sometimes they don't distribute books. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And then maybe if they're having to pay off a loan on the temple. The general instruction is there, and all the devotees are well aware of it, that Prabhupāda's books have first priority. Everyone knows it. The consciousness is there. It's not a consciousness of not giving anything and taking. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda's point is that if you see fault with the method of implementing the spiritual master's instructions, you'll fail to follow the instructions. Prabhupāda: No, the point is not that they have not done any wrong. Don't think like that. But my point, that is, my instruction is the books must be pushed. Bhūrijana: I understand. In other words, if you think they're doing it wrong, you do it better. If you see the wrong thing . . . but do it. Make sure you do it, but do it better without the wrong, then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhūrijana: I feel that this is . . . huh. Prabhupāda: Besides that . . . (end) Prabhupāda: First business, how to get our books . . . (indistinct) . . . (loud kirtan in background) For Russia, export from India will be favorable. So government paper we are printing seven, eight rupees price. Make that addition, all the books. Ask them to take paper from the government, huge quantity, and all these books should be published immediately, five thousand copies. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Five thousand copies each. Prabhupāda: Yes, if possible. Minimum one thousand. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last time when we were speaking, I was mentioning to you that in Russia they are particularly inclined towards an exchange program of books, where we give our books and they will give some useless books. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) . . . why should we do this? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned last time you will throw them away. Prabhupāda: For us there is no readable books in the whole world. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: We cannot waste our time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, of course. But is there any . . . I mean, of course we would like to . . . Prabhupāda: But only some of the authorized books, just to take their parts and to refute; otherwise, we haven't got to take lesson from anyone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: This is a fact. All rascal speculators, what value they have got? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing there are many thousands of libraries in Russia and they are agreeable to placing, say, one of our books of each book in each of the libraries, but they are not willing to purchase all of these books, but they are willing to give us some book in exchange? Will we make this sacrifice? Because it will represent a loss of money. Prabhupāda: No, if you can arrange for selling those books at any cost. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can arrange to sell our books to them at any cost? Prabhupāda: No, no, exchange. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can sell. There is some set resale value. Then we can realize some money. Prabhupāda: Yes, then it is all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll have value. There will be some money. We can request them to send us samples of the books that they will return to us. Then we can . . . Prabhupāda: Find out cost. Some shopkeepers, stores. Some return. If we can get our cost price of the books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should get cost price. Prabhupāda: Not should, but must as far as possible. Gurukṛpā: I've heard that in Russia the people are so eager to read imported literature that any literature appears they immediately buy it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a black market going on in Russia, particularly black market on books. Books are smuggled into the country and sold, and they're very dearly read. People are very anxious. Prabhupāda: Yes. They must be, because they are keeping in darkness. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: These nasty countries, in the name of giving them material facility, they'll kill them, even they're independent. Such a horrible country. How people can tolerate loss of independence? It is very horrible. I am sitting here twenty*-four hours, this is another thing; but if I understand that I cannot go out, I have to sit down here, oh, it is horrible. It is a horrible condition. Simply this impression that I have to keep myself within this room, although I am keeping myself, I am not going, only for walk maybe. But if the impression is that I cannot go out from this room, then my life is lost. This is psychology. So they are keeping their young men. They are not allowed to go out of the country, in Russia. Similarly in China. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even more so. Prabhupāda: So what kind of government it is? It is a horrible government. And they are hackney only in literature. These Communist country, the people are forced to accept the government regulation. And that is all bad. I have seen in Moscow, generally the people are morose, their face not very happy. They are also European. They want freedom to go here and there. They have no such freedom. And poor. The taxi driver—first of all there is scarcity of taxi; you cannot get taxi. Gurukṛpā: Even in Moscow, big city. Prabhupāda: Yes. That Professor Kotovsky, I asked him, "Please arrange for a taxi." . . . (indistinct) . . . "Well, Swāmījī, this is Moscow." (laughter) So he came down up to the gate—he was very courteous—he showed me, "Swāmījī, go this way, three, four lane, then you'll find a short lane, and then you go this way, this way, then you get to your hotel." He showed me some short cut way, short cut personally. They . . . he could not call a taxi. And somewhere we went, we got a taxi, private taxi, and that man was begging for more than the fare. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the system . . . Prabhupāda: "Can you not give me little more?" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the system is a failure. Prabhupāda: And then I could understand. And they have got that there is tourist bus, taking here and there, that bus is third class. Even less opulent than in India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many days were you there? Prabhupāda: One week. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Short. You were only in Moscow? Gurukṛpā: That is the rich city. People are fighting to get into that city. They only allow so many people to live there. Prabhupāda: Everything restricted. Gurukṛpā: You cannot just decide to move to Moscow. You cannot do that. You must take permission from the government to live in Moscow. Prabhupāda: Everything . . . and we could not get nice food. There was no nice rice, wheat, fruit, flour—nothing. Fruit means the strawberries. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only. Prabhupāda: I don't remember we could get any other fruit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Perhaps you went at a bad season. Prabhupāda: No, no. Everything is controlled. Whatever government will give you, you have to accept. And all the stores, it is just like, what is called? The old? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Grocery store? Prabhupāda: Antique, antique. Antique shop. That means no purchaser. People have no p . . . no bank. People have no money; simply bare necessities of life their government supplies. And bus transport, buses standing in one place, best time, and people are running after. Women, men, mostly they walk. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or bicycles. Prabhupāda: Bicycle, I did not . . . Gurukṛpā: I think they must all wear the same clothes. Prabhupāda: I did not study so much. Yes, there is no gorgeousness. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In China they all wear the same clothes. Whatever you saw in Russia, China is ten times more oppressive. It is much more oppressive. They say that Russia is a complete failure, because they are allowing so much looseness. The Chinese are accusing the Russians of being very loose and very capitalistic inclined. China is very dissatisfied that Russians have given up the principles of Marx and they have taken after the Western ways, preferring one group above another group. Prabhupāda: Because Russia was afraid of another Revolution. People were preparing. So much pressure, intolerance, after all they are Europeans, so there was a chance of revolution. Hari-śauri: Especially after Stalin. So many people were killed and sent to prison camps. That was the way that they enforced . . . Prabhupāda: Stalin is calculated to be greatest criminal in the world. He has killed so many men. All rogues. We were taken through the neighborhood of all aristocratic men who were killed in the Revolution. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While reading about China, one of the books I was reading also described Cambodia, Vietnam and Korea. And the recent histories of these countries are so horrible, that the . . . mostly in that part of the world now they have become totally anti*-American. They are very, very anti-American because of what the Ameri . . . the Americans have simply gone there and . . . Gurukṛpā: Not Korea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh? Prabhupāda: No, Korea, also there was Americans. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: North Koreans don't love Americans. Gurukṛpā: No, not north Koreans, South Koreans. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But now Korea is united. Gurukṛpā: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, I've been reading. They hate the Americans in North Korea. In North Korea they hate the Americans. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: North Korea is Communist. Gurukṛpā: Trivikrama has left Korea now. He went, and he has left. He's in Japan. Prabhupāda: Oh. He could not do anything? Gurukṛpā: I don't know. He has left there. He went for three weeks and left. Now he's in Japan. I don't know where. He's doing something. Prabhupāda: If he could not do anything, he can come back to America. What do you think? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that it's good for him to come back to America. He's been away from America for five or six years now. Prabhupāda: Yes, let him come back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He can preach in colleges. It would be a very purifying experience. Being by oneself for so long in that part of the world is very difficult. Prabhupāda: To remain alone is risky. (pause) Prabhupāda: Now China wants to control India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And also Russia. Prabhupāda: Also Russia. China would have attacked. They once attempted, American implemented. They are thinking that because the officers are corrupt, the people are dissatisfied, and if we go they will welcome. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Exactly correct. Oh, yes, it's a perfect analysis. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They believe that the . . . of course, it's a fact, the leaders are very corrupt, but the people want the change, that's what they believe. "And if we go, the people will work with us and overthrow this government and establish a true communistic government, a government for all of the benefit of the people." That's their idea. They feel that way about the whole world, the Chinese. They feel in America also—of course that's nonsense—but they think like that, that in America there is a huge working class, and the working class are feeling oppressed. But that's nonsense. Prabhupāda: I think American working class are paid more than any country. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The average income in the United States now . . . Gurukṛpā: Even a bricklayer. You know a man who lays bricks, a man who just lays bricks, bricklayer? In India he gets paid ten rupees a day. Prabhupāda: Utmost. Gurukṛpā: And here he gets paid twelve dollars an hour. Prabhupāda: Bricklayer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, twelve dollars an hour. Gurukṛpā: So one hundred dollars a day. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is impossible to engage. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. Gurukṛpā: Very expensive. Construction worker, just to build a simple building, they charge construction about nine dollars an hour, every man, minimum, unskilled man, nine dollars an hour. Prabhupāda: Then, how it will be possible? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were discussing this. The way to do it is that you get some person . . . there are many persons all over the country who are knowledgeable, who can do the work, but who are friendly. Just like in many temples that I visited, they have people, professionals who are working, but they are young men, and because they are friendly towards our Society, they'll do the work for less money. I'm sure that there are people who can be found like that here. Prabhupāda: American devotee, Asian and Australian devotee. Gurukṛpā: I think it can be done amongst our devotees. Prabhupāda: Hmm. We are not very anxious to get it done immediately. We shall do slowly. Gurukṛpā: So we are . . . me and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, we have organized the saṅkīrtana here. The saṅkīrtana should increase about ten times. Before they were doing three hundred dollars a day; now they should be doing at about one thousand three hundred dollars a day. Prabhupāda: That is nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore I think if we have profit, fifty percent can go for books and fifty percent can be banked. And when they have enough money, then we can build the temple. But it's the only question . . . Prabhupāda: No, with what . . . whatever collection is there, fifty percent, go on. Why wait? Gurukṛpā: And what about my collections in Japan? Prabhupāda: We also spend here for the time. Gurukṛpā: 'Cause I will be getting nice collections this year. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: I will bank it here? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: It should come here? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The construction in Māyāpur . . . Gurukṛpā: It's just that I don't have . . . Prabhupāda: You have paid? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From Rādhā*-Dāmodara party? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were doing that, previous to the Māyāpur festival. Prabhupāda: Yes. You are also, you have promised you have continued. Here, there . . . there is no temple. Must be constructed. Gurukṛpā: Do you think . . . some of the devotees were expressing that maybe in the front would be better, then they could come in off the street. Otherwise they have to go around the . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: If the building was built in the front, some people were thinking this might be a better spot, because if there's no sun back here . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gurukṛpā: . . . then it becomes very muddy there. Prabhupāda: What is the area here? Gurukṛpā: Oh, it's bigger. Prabhupāda: Bigger? Gurukṛpā: Yes. And they say these neighbors back here are the ones that do all the complaining. So some were expressing that this might be better; they could come in off the street. Also, many tourists come to Hawaii, and if we make it very nice, then they can . . . many tourist buses may come here to see the temple. So if it is near the gate then you'll come right out. But it's just that I have no knowledge of how to build anything. Prabhupāda: Who? Gurukṛpā: Myself, how to go about it. I don't have any experience or knowledge of that. Prabhupāda: No, you have no experience. I know. So that Australian boy who works constantly, there is one temple . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhāskara. Gurukṛpā: Bhāskara, yeah. He's in New York. Prabhupāda: He can come and help. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He'll be free pretty soon. Gurukṛpā: Someone has to organize for the construction, though. That's the main thing. Then later the inside. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Māyāpur they are completing the, er, that building? They had begun that long residential building. Prabhupāda: Which one? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The one while we were there. Prabhupāda: Uhuh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember they were doing the first . . . ground floor. I think you told them to . . . Prabhupāda: They are completing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about the other side? Prabhupāda: That side also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Exhibition hall. Prabhupāda: That side also scheduled to begin. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Bombay also has to be finished. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So sufficient funds have to be sent for completing Bombay in ten months' time and for those two buildings in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Bombay, the slab is laid, temple. Latest letter? Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Giridhārī. And the tower . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Prabhupāda: I think it will be finished earlier. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya. Any more news on the attempt of the government to take it back? Prabhupāda: The government, I know it will be unable to take. They cannot acquire temple. There is no such law. And even they acquire, we shall say, "All right take it . . . (indistinct) . . ." And the Hindus will . . . (indistinct) . . . to neglect, "All right, we will do it." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We could write a book. A book should be written about the Bombay . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that . . . one lady, Nirmala. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Dr. Singhal's wife. Prabhupāda: Yes, she has already sent some article, why it is not published? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, whenever I see her she always asks: "Why they don't publish?" Prabhupāda: Yes, and they inquire. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should start to make enquiry now throughout the world, how to push these books forward. Just as you are pointing out—sending books from India to Russia—in this way there may be so many arrangements. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just find out what is the venues to push our books. As much as possible. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I concentrate my time for this? Prabhupāda: Yes, only. This will be your only business. All over the world, see how the books can be pushed. In their language or in English. Now we have got several languages. You have seen the latest Portuguese edition? Gurukṛpā: Spanish. Prabhupāda: Spanish. You have seen? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think I have. Prabhupāda: Give it to him. Hari-śauri: It's on the bottom shelf. Prabhupāda: Last. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one? Prabhupāda: Last, last book. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Phew, very handsome. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have done very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That's the idea. If books like this can be introduced, I'm certain that every single Spanish embassy around the world will take a book like this for their library. And there's plenty of them. There's many nations. *Prabhupāda: And you can sell standing order of all the languages. So they will take. And the get*-up is so nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Beautiful. Yeah, that book is nice, the color is good. Prabhupāda: This is printed in America also. American books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Printed in . . . Dhṛṣṭadyumna: EUA. Prabhupāda: USA. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: USA. Prabhupāda: In this way, if possible, print in Russian language, in black market. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's possible, and they'll be eager. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The young people are dissatisfied, young student. Prabhupāda: Small books print, first of all. See how the black market takes it, and then big books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is also all of the Eastern European countries. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got black market. There must be intermediate man who deals in black market. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Give them. Let them make good profit. We want to put up, that's all. And let them take money, we don't mind. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. When there is trickery, you become trickery. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. Kṛṣṇa's play, those who are plain, Kṛṣṇa is very kind and plain. Those who are tricky, "All right, I am also tricky." We shall adopt all the means of the materialistic person, simply for Kṛṣṇa. (break) Just like Kṛṣṇa's rāsa dance. Any materialistic person at the dead of night will be glad to dance with young girls. What is the difference? (break) But because it was Kṛṣṇa's dancing, so this association of the woman with Kṛṣṇa is taken by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the first*-class worship. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā. Kṛṣṇa also became little tricky with the gopīs, "Oh, you have come at dead of night? What your husband, father would think? And there are so many ferocious animals in the jungle. Please get out immediately." You have read that? Devotees: Mmm. Hmm. Prabhupāda: And the gopīs were thinking, "What this rascal says . . . say?" (chuckles) They are so sorry, that "We have come, leaving everything and this rascal is giving us moral instruction." This is love: they can chastise Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . somehow or other, black market, white market, red market, let them make. And as soon as there is taste, there will be very good demand. And this black marketeer will make profit and they'll do. This Chinese policy or the Russian policy will not stand. Simply we require to make ourselves strong. As soon as we become stronger than the Communist movement, we shall finish everyone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Finish everyone? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean attack them? Prabhupāda: That I shall tell later. You become little strong. We cannot allow them. Because Kṛṣṇa's policy is, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam ( BG 4.8). You have to take that policy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Vṛndāvana, one day on a walk, you were saying that Kṛṣṇa's soldiers will walk all over the world, and they will approach everyone and say: "Do you believe in Kṛṣṇa?" And if they say: "No," immediately, kill them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not kill them with weapon, but kill them by saṅkīrtana. They are already dead. So physical killing is for very big, big, strong man like Mao, or this Lenin, like that. Not common people. They have to be shown mercy. Hari-śauri: More a question of revival for the common people. More a question of revival. Prabhupāda: If they allow us to forward our movement, then we are satisfied. And when there is hindrance, the person who is hindering, finished. But don't do it now, (chuckles) then you will be finished. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you think the time will come when we will . . .? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because Kṛṣṇa has two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam (BG 4.8). We are for delivering all people. Anyone who will put hindrance, then we have to finish. Not small; big. Yes. That is going on all over the world, politics. Gurukṛpā: Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, he also . . . Prabhupāda: That is the way everywhere. (break) They will be automatically finished. Just like the Ramakrishna Mission, who are advertising that they have done wonderful importance. They are now finished. They are simply making false propaganda in India. Actually, they have got fangs. What is called, fangs? Gurukṛpā: Phans? Prabhupāda: The poison teeth? Devotees: Fangs. Prabhupāda: Fangs, fangs. That is broken. So make . . . first of all try to push books everywhere, all over the world. They have got so many languages, like Russian or . . . black market. Chinese also. Black market, they cannot check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no, and you don't need permission either. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And there's more profit, too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In black market. Prabhupāda: And yes, if there is demand, then you will make good profit also. And there will be demand. Hari-śauri: They'll be big demand for your books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very big, very big. *Prabhupāda: They trans . . . sent one translation of Tulasi dāsa's Rāma*-caritra-mānasa . It was sold, all, in a week. And therefore they have stopped now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow, really? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gurukṛpā: It is Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . *Prabhupāda: They sent stocks, Bhagavad*-gītā . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes I wonder that—of course, we want our books to be translated by our own men—but in the absence of sufficient translators . . . Prabhupāda: Any way. That thing, you see, that our men means they know the philosophy. Others, they do not know. That is the difficulty. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing we have—I'm just using this hypothetical . . . Prabhupāda: Any, "our man" who knows Russian language, he should check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Professionals may translate, but one of our men may check? Prabhupāda: Yes, just like our books are being done in Germany now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Yeah, then you can have quite a few books translated. Because if we only depend on our men for the entire translating work, it will never get done. Prabhupāda: No, no. Then get professional man, but he may not create the havoc. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he must be checked by someone who knows. Whew, this is exciting. I'd love to see your Bhagavad*-gītā , the most widely-read black market book in Russia. Prabhupāda: Then that will create revolution. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew. These books are very revolutionary. You are very strong. You have put everything in a very clear*-cut, strong words. You have attacked everyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious as fools and rascals. Prabhupāda: (laughs) This is a fact. It is not exaggeration. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In your article in Back to Godhead about Marx, you call him a . . . what is that? Gurukṛpā: Nonsense. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A nonsense. You call him "Marx is nonsense." Prabhupāda: Yes, what is his philosophy? Dialectitude? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dialectic Materialism. Prabhupāda: So, we have written one Dialectic Spiritualism. Hari-śauri: Harikeśa's. Prabhupāda: Harikeśa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he read it to us in India. He's preaching, I think, in Eastern Europe sometimes. We got a report. Has he written you? Prabhupāda: Yes. I heard that, but is he being all right or not? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From the report it appears that he goes occasionally into some Eastern European countries. Mostly he's concentrating in England, Germany and Scandinavias. He has a party, and they are doing speaking engagements and distributing books. And sometimes he went in . . . which countries? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Czechoslovakia, Hungary. He went to Budapest. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is going to some Communist European countries. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They make their vans with false bottoms, and they hide the books underneath, so at the border they do not see. Underneath the van is all your books. When they get in the country then they distribute the books to these students. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Revolution. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Sometimes he said when he's speaking, the translator will not say what he is saying because it's . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes he forgets—usually he speaks very carefully, guarded words. But once or twice he says . . . he starts speaking direct Krishna consciousness, and the translator looks at him and won't translate it into the local language. Sometimes he forgets himself and starts speaking about Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the translator suddenly looks at him. Usually he covers everything. Prabhupāda: He has done a good job. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is a fit person, very intelligent. Prabhupāda: So in this way . . . you are all intelligent; you can plan. The aim is how to distribute books. That is first consideration. (break) In Bhāgavata it is very figuratively described that we have got this body and the different parts. Just like Arjuna is sitting on the chariot. There is chariot driver, there are horses, reins, there is wheel, and the arrow and the bow. They have been figuratively . . . so this can be used for killing the enemies of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and then give up all this paraphernalia, chariot, wheel. Just like after fighting, only victory, then you kill them. And similarly this body is there, the mind is there, the senses are there. So utilize it for conquering over this material existence. And then give up your body and go back to home. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Does the devotee . . . I mean, just like you are always enthusing us to push on . . . *Prabhupāda: That is sharpening your weapons. That is also described. By serving the spiritual master, you keep your weapon always sharpened. And then take help from Kṛṣṇa, the words of spiritual master sharpen weapon, and yasya prasādad bhagavata . . . and the spiritual master is happy, then Kṛṣṇa immediately will help. He gives you strength. Suppose you have got a sword, sharpened sword. But if you have no strength, what will you do with the sword? Kṛṣṇa will give you the strength, how to fight and kill the enemies. Everything is described. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu, guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya (CC Madhya 19.151). Make your weapon sharpened by the instruction of the spiritual master, and then Kṛṣṇa will give you strength, you'll be able to conquer. This figurative explanation I think last night I give. Here is a verse, acyuta-balaḥ, acyuta-balaḥ (SB 7.15.45). Is Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa here? Hari-śauri: (calls out) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: We are soldiers of Kṛṣṇa, servant of Arjuna. Simply we have to act accordingly, then you will finish our enemies. They have no power, although their number is hundred times. Just like Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, they have no power, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BG 18.78). Keep Kṛṣṇa in your side, then everything will be successful. Tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtiḥ . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have to go now, catch our airplane. You'll be coming to America in about a month's time? Hari-śauri: Three weeks. Prabhupāda: I think so. Hari-śauri: Three weeks. Prabhupāda: Three weeks. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Ratha*-yātrā in New York is taking place on July 18th. So I think it's . . . Prabhupāda: So if I go earlier in New York, my place is available? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. If you like to come it's ready. It'll be ready for you. Prabhupāda: Hmm, I want to go. I want to see how this new building is . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Utilized. Prabhupāda: Because I went there in New York, no place to stay. It is very engladdening we have got now nice building. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This place is the best facility we have in the movement. (break) *Prabhupāda: Baladeva means Nityānanda. Nitāiyer karuṇā habe braje rādhā*-kṛṣṇa pābe . In this way I was praying. Balarām hoile nitāi . So this word bolo I . . . (indistinct) . . . it is supported by Vedic version: nāyam ātmā bala-hinena labhyaḥ . Without Baladeva . . . give this garland to him and this flower to that boy . . . (indistinct) (end) Prabhupāda: First business, how to get our books . . . (indistinct) . . . (loud kirtan in background) For Russia, export from India will be favorable. So government paper we are printing seven, eight rupees price. Make that addition, all the books. Ask them to take paper from the government, huge quantity, and all these books should be published immediately, five thousand copies. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Five thousand copies each. Prabhupāda: Yes, if possible. Minimum one thousand. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last time when we were speaking, I was mentioning to you that in Russia they are particularly inclined towards an exchange program of books, where we give our books and they will give some useless books. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) . . . why should we do this? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned last time you will throw them away. Prabhupāda: For us there is no readable books in the whole world. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: We cannot waste our time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, of course. But is there any . . . I mean, of course we would like to . . . Prabhupāda: But only some of the authorized books, just to take their parts and to refute; otherwise, we haven't got to take lesson from anyone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: This is a fact. All rascal speculators, what value they have got? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing there are many thousands of libraries in Russia and they are agreeable to placing, say, one of our books of each book in each of the libraries, but they are not willing to purchase all of these books, but they are willing to give us some book in exchange? Will we make this sacrifice? Because it will represent a loss of money. Prabhupāda: No, if you can arrange for selling those books at any cost. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can arrange to sell our books to them at any cost? Prabhupāda: No, no, exchange. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can sell. There is some set resale value. Then we can realize some money. Prabhupāda: Yes, then it is all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll have value. There will be some money. We can request them to send us samples of the books that they will return to us. Then we can . . . Prabhupāda: Find out cost. Some shopkeepers, stores. Some return. If we can get our cost price of the books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should get cost price. Prabhupāda: Not should, but must as far as possible. Gurukṛpā: I've heard that in Russia the people are so eager to read imported literature that any literature appears they immediately buy it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a black market going on in Russia, particularly black market on books. Books are smuggled into the country and sold, and they're very dearly read. People are very anxious. Prabhupāda: Yes. They must be, because they are keeping in darkness. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: These nasty countries, in the name of giving them material facility, they'll kill them, even they're independent. Such a horrible country. How people can tolerate loss of independence? It is very horrible. I am sitting here twenty*-four hours, this is another thing; but if I understand that I cannot go out, I have to sit down here, oh, it is horrible. It is a horrible condition. Simply this impression that I have to keep myself within this room, although I am keeping myself, I am not going, only for walk maybe. But if the impression is that I cannot go out from this room, then my life is lost. This is psychology. So they are keeping their young men. They are not allowed to go out of the country, in Russia. Similarly in China. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even more so. Prabhupāda: So what kind of government it is? It is a horrible government. And they are hackney only in literature. These Communist country, the people are forced to accept the government regulation. And that is all bad. I have seen in Moscow, generally the people are morose, their face not very happy. They are also European. They want freedom to go here and there. They have no such freedom. And poor. The taxi driver—first of all there is scarcity of taxi; you cannot get taxi. Gurukṛpā: Even in Moscow, big city. Prabhupāda: Yes. That Professor Kotovsky, I asked him, "Please arrange for a taxi." . . . (indistinct) . . . "Well, Swāmījī, this is Moscow." (laughter) So he came down up to the gate—he was very courteous—he showed me, "Swāmījī, go this way, three, four lane, then you'll find a short lane, and then you go this way, this way, then you get to your hotel." He showed me some short cut way, short cut personally. They . . . he could not call a taxi. And somewhere we went, we got a taxi, private taxi, and that man was begging for more than the fare. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the system . . . Prabhupāda: "Can you not give me little more?" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the system is a failure. Prabhupāda: And then I could understand. And they have got that there is tourist bus, taking here and there, that bus is third class. Even less opulent than in India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many days were you there? Prabhupāda: One week. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Short. You were only in Moscow? Gurukṛpā: That is the rich city. People are fighting to get into that city. They only allow so many people to live there. Prabhupāda: Everything restricted. Gurukṛpā: You cannot just decide to move to Moscow. You cannot do that. You must take permission from the government to live in Moscow. Prabhupāda: Everything . . . and we could not get nice food. There was no nice rice, wheat, fruit, flour—nothing. Fruit means the strawberries. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only. Prabhupāda: I don't remember we could get any other fruit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Perhaps you went at a bad season. Prabhupāda: No, no. Everything is controlled. Whatever government will give you, you have to accept. And all the stores, it is just like, what is called? The old? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Grocery store? Prabhupāda: Antique, antique. Antique shop. That means no purchaser. People have no p . . . no bank. People have no money; simply bare necessities of life their government supplies. And bus transport, buses standing in one place, best time, and people are running after. Women, men, mostly they walk. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or bicycles. Prabhupāda: Bicycle, I did not . . . Gurukṛpā: I think they must all wear the same clothes. Prabhupāda: I did not study so much. Yes, there is no gorgeousness. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In China they all wear the same clothes. Whatever you saw in Russia, China is ten times more oppressive. It is much more oppressive. They say that Russia is a complete failure, because they are allowing so much looseness. The Chinese are accusing the Russians of being very loose and very capitalistic inclined. China is very dissatisfied that Russians have given up the principles of Marx and they have taken after the Western ways, preferring one group above another group. Prabhupāda: Because Russia was afraid of another Revolution. People were preparing. So much pressure, intolerance, after all they are Europeans, so there was a chance of revolution. Hari-śauri: Especially after Stalin. So many people were killed and sent to prison camps. That was the way that they enforced . . . Prabhupāda: Stalin is calculated to be greatest criminal in the world. He has killed so many men. All rogues. We were taken through the neighborhood of all aristocratic men who were killed in the Revolution. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While reading about China, one of the books I was reading also described Cambodia, Vietnam and Korea. And the recent histories of these countries are so horrible, that the . . . mostly in that part of the world now they have become totally anti*-American. They are very, very anti-American because of what the Ameri . . . the Americans have simply gone there and . . . Gurukṛpā: Not Korea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh? Prabhupāda: No, Korea, also there was Americans. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: North Koreans don't love Americans. Gurukṛpā: No, not north Koreans, South Koreans. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But now Korea is united. Gurukṛpā: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, I've been reading. They hate the Americans in North Korea. In North Korea they hate the Americans. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: North Korea is Communist. Gurukṛpā: Trivikrama has left Korea now. He went, and he has left. He's in Japan. Prabhupāda: Oh. He could not do anything? Gurukṛpā: I don't know. He has left there. He went for three weeks and left. Now he's in Japan. I don't know where. He's doing something. Prabhupāda: If he could not do anything, he can come back to America. What do you think? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that it's good for him to come back to America. He's been away from America for five or six years now. Prabhupāda: Yes, let him come back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He can preach in colleges. It would be a very purifying experience. Being by oneself for so long in that part of the world is very difficult. Prabhupāda: To remain alone is risky. (pause) Prabhupāda: Now China wants to control India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And also Russia. Prabhupāda: Also Russia. China would have attacked. They once attempted, American implemented. They are thinking that because the officers are corrupt, the people are dissatisfied, and if we go they will welcome. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Exactly correct. Oh, yes, it's a perfect analysis. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They believe that the . . . of course, it's a fact, the leaders are very corrupt, but the people want the change, that's what they believe. "And if we go, the people will work with us and overthrow this government and establish a true communistic government, a government for all of the benefit of the people." That's their idea. They feel that way about the whole world, the Chinese. They feel in America also—of course that's nonsense—but they think like that, that in America there is a huge working class, and the working class are feeling oppressed. But that's nonsense. Prabhupāda: I think American working class are paid more than any country. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The average income in the United States now . . . Gurukṛpā: Even a bricklayer. You know a man who lays bricks, a man who just lays bricks, bricklayer? In India he gets paid ten rupees a day. Prabhupāda: Utmost. Gurukṛpā: And here he gets paid twelve dollars an hour. Prabhupāda: Bricklayer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, twelve dollars an hour. Gurukṛpā: So one hundred dollars a day. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is impossible to engage. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. Gurukṛpā: Very expensive. Construction worker, just to build a simple building, they charge construction about nine dollars an hour, every man, minimum, unskilled man, nine dollars an hour. Prabhupāda: Then, how it will be possible? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were discussing this. The way to do it is that you get some person . . . there are many persons all over the country who are knowledgeable, who can do the work, but who are friendly. Just like in many temples that I visited, they have people, professionals who are working, but they are young men, and because they are friendly towards our Society, they'll do the work for less money. I'm sure that there are people who can be found like that here. Prabhupāda: American devotee, Asian and Australian devotee. Gurukṛpā: I think it can be done amongst our devotees. Prabhupāda: Hmm. We are not very anxious to get it done immediately. We shall do slowly. Gurukṛpā: So we are . . . me and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, we have organized the saṅkīrtana here. The saṅkīrtana should increase about ten times. Before they were doing three hundred dollars a day; now they should be doing at about one thousand three hundred dollars a day. Prabhupāda: That is nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore I think if we have profit, fifty percent can go for books and fifty percent can be banked. And when they have enough money, then we can build the temple. But it's the only question . . . Prabhupāda: No, with what . . . whatever collection is there, fifty percent, go on. Why wait? Gurukṛpā: And what about my collections in Japan? Prabhupāda: We also spend here for the time. Gurukṛpā: 'Cause I will be getting nice collections this year. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: I will bank it here? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: It should come here? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The construction in Māyāpur . . . Gurukṛpā: It's just that I don't have . . . Prabhupāda: You have paid? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From Rādhā*-Dāmodara party? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were doing that, previous to the Māyāpur festival. Prabhupāda: Yes. You are also, you have promised you have continued. Here, there . . . there is no temple. Must be constructed. Gurukṛpā: Do you think . . . some of the devotees were expressing that maybe in the front would be better, then they could come in off the street. Otherwise they have to go around the . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: If the building was built in the front, some people were thinking this might be a better spot, because if there's no sun back here . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gurukṛpā: . . . then it becomes very muddy there. Prabhupāda: What is the area here? Gurukṛpā: Oh, it's bigger. Prabhupāda: Bigger? Gurukṛpā: Yes. And they say these neighbors back here are the ones that do all the complaining. So some were expressing that this might be better; they could come in off the street. Also, many tourists come to Hawaii, and if we make it very nice, then they can . . . many tourist buses may come here to see the temple. So if it is near the gate then you'll come right out. But it's just that I have no knowledge of how to build anything. Prabhupāda: Who? Gurukṛpā: Myself, how to go about it. I don't have any experience or knowledge of that. Prabhupāda: No, you have no experience. I know. So that Australian boy who works constantly, there is one temple . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhāskara. Gurukṛpā: Bhāskara, yeah. He's in New York. Prabhupāda: He can come and help. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He'll be free pretty soon. Gurukṛpā: Someone has to organize for the construction, though. That's the main thing. Then later the inside. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Māyāpur they are completing the, er, that building? They had begun that long residential building. Prabhupāda: Which one? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The one while we were there. Prabhupāda: Uhuh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember they were doing the first . . . ground floor. I think you told them to . . . Prabhupāda: They are completing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about the other side? Prabhupāda: That side also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Exhibition hall. Prabhupāda: That side also scheduled to begin. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Bombay also has to be finished. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So sufficient funds have to be sent for completing Bombay in ten months' time and for those two buildings in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Bombay, the slab is laid, temple. Latest letter? Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Giridhārī. And the tower . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Prabhupāda: I think it will be finished earlier. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya. Any more news on the attempt of the government to take it back? Prabhupāda: The government, I know it will be unable to take. They cannot acquire temple. There is no such law. And even they acquire, we shall say, "All right take it . . . (indistinct) . . ." And the Hindus will . . . (indistinct) . . . to neglect, "All right, we will do it." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We could write a book. A book should be written about the Bombay . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that . . . one lady, Nirmala. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Dr. Singhal's wife. Prabhupāda: Yes, she has already sent some article, why it is not published? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, whenever I see her she always asks: "Why they don't publish?" Prabhupāda: Yes, and they inquire. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should start to make enquiry now throughout the world, how to push these books forward. Just as you are pointing out—sending books from India to Russia—in this way there may be so many arrangements. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just find out what is the venues to push our books. As much as possible. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I concentrate my time for this? Prabhupāda: Yes, only. This will be your only business. All over the world, see how the books can be pushed. In their language or in English. Now we have got several languages. You have seen the latest Portuguese edition? Gurukṛpā: Spanish. Prabhupāda: Spanish. You have seen? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think I have. Prabhupāda: Give it to him. Hari-śauri: It's on the bottom shelf. Prabhupāda: Last. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one? Prabhupāda: Last, last book. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Phew, very handsome. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have done very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That's the idea. If books like this can be introduced, I'm certain that every single Spanish embassy around the world will take a book like this for their library. And there's plenty of them. There's many nations. *Prabhupāda: And you can sell standing order of all the languages. So they will take. And the get*-up is so nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Beautiful. Yeah, that book is nice, the color is good. Prabhupāda: This is printed in America also. American books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Printed in . . . Dhṛṣṭadyumna: EUA. Prabhupāda: USA. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: USA. Prabhupāda: In this way, if possible, print in Russian language, in black market. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's possible, and they'll be eager. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The young people are dissatisfied, young student. Prabhupāda: Small books print, first of all. See how the black market takes it, and then big books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is also all of the Eastern European countries. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got black market. There must be intermediate man who deals in black market. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Give them. Let them make good profit. We want to put up, that's all. And let them take money, we don't mind. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. When there is trickery, you become trickery. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. Kṛṣṇa's play, those who are plain, Kṛṣṇa is very kind and plain. Those who are tricky, "All right, I am also tricky." We shall adopt all the means of the materialistic person, simply for Kṛṣṇa. (break) Just like Kṛṣṇa's rāsa dance. Any materialistic person at the dead of night will be glad to dance with young girls. What is the difference? (break) But because it was Kṛṣṇa's dancing, so this association of the woman with Kṛṣṇa is taken by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the first*-class worship. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā. Kṛṣṇa also became little tricky with the gopīs, "Oh, you have come at dead of night? What your husband, father would think? And there are so many ferocious animals in the jungle. Please get out immediately." You have read that? Devotees: Mmm. Hmm. Prabhupāda: And the gopīs were thinking, "What this rascal says . . . say?" (chuckles) They are so sorry, that "We have come, leaving everything and this rascal is giving us moral instruction." This is love: they can chastise Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . somehow or other, black market, white market, red market, let them make. And as soon as there is taste, there will be very good demand. And this black marketeer will make profit and they'll do. This Chinese policy or the Russian policy will not stand. Simply we require to make ourselves strong. As soon as we become stronger than the Communist movement, we shall finish everyone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Finish everyone? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean attack them? Prabhupāda: That I shall tell later. You become little strong. We cannot allow them. Because Kṛṣṇa's policy is, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam ( BG 4.8). You have to take that policy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Vṛndāvana, one day on a walk, you were saying that Kṛṣṇa's soldiers will walk all over the world, and they will approach everyone and say: "Do you believe in Kṛṣṇa?" And if they say: "No," immediately, kill them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not kill them with weapon, but kill them by saṅkīrtana. They are already dead. So physical killing is for very big, big, strong man like Mao, or this Lenin, like that. Not common people. They have to be shown mercy. Hari-śauri: More a question of revival for the common people. More a question of revival. Prabhupāda: If they allow us to forward our movement, then we are satisfied. And when there is hindrance, the person who is hindering, finished. But don't do it now, (chuckles) then you will be finished. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you think the time will come when we will . . .? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because Kṛṣṇa has two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam (BG 4.8). We are for delivering all people. Anyone who will put hindrance, then we have to finish. Not small; big. Yes. That is going on all over the world, politics. Gurukṛpā: Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, he also . . . Prabhupāda: That is the way everywhere. (break) They will be automatically finished. Just like the Ramakrishna Mission, who are advertising that they have done wonderful importance. They are now finished. They are simply making false propaganda in India. Actually, they have got fangs. What is called, fangs? Gurukṛpā: Phans? Prabhupāda: The poison teeth? Devotees: Fangs. Prabhupāda: Fangs, fangs. That is broken. So make . . . first of all try to push books everywhere, all over the world. They have got so many languages, like Russian or . . . black market. Chinese also. Black market, they cannot check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no, and you don't need permission either. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And there's more profit, too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In black market. Prabhupāda: And yes, if there is demand, then you will make good profit also. And there will be demand. Hari-śauri: They'll be big demand for your books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very big, very big. *Prabhupāda: They trans . . . sent one translation of Tulasi dāsa's Rāma*-caritra-mānasa . It was sold, all, in a week. And therefore they have stopped now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow, really? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gurukṛpā: It is Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . *Prabhupāda: They sent stocks, Bhagavad*-gītā . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes I wonder that—of course, we want our books to be translated by our own men—but in the absence of sufficient translators . . . Prabhupāda: Any way. That thing, you see, that our men means they know the philosophy. Others, they do not know. That is the difficulty. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing we have—I'm just using this hypothetical . . . Prabhupāda: Any, "our man" who knows Russian language, he should check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Professionals may translate, but one of our men may check? Prabhupāda: Yes, just like our books are being done in Germany now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Yeah, then you can have quite a few books translated. Because if we only depend on our men for the entire translating work, it will never get done. Prabhupāda: No, no. Then get professional man, but he may not create the havoc. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he must be checked by someone who knows. Whew, this is exciting. I'd love to see your Bhagavad*-gītā , the most widely-read black market book in Russia. Prabhupāda: Then that will create revolution. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew. These books are very revolutionary. You are very strong. You have put everything in a very clear*-cut, strong words. You have attacked everyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious as fools and rascals. Prabhupāda: (laughs) This is a fact. It is not exaggeration. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In your article in Back to Godhead about Marx, you call him a . . . what is that? Gurukṛpā: Nonsense. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A nonsense. You call him "Marx is nonsense." Prabhupāda: Yes, what is his philosophy? Dialectitude? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dialectic Materialism. Prabhupāda: So, we have written one Dialectic Spiritualism. Hari-śauri: Harikeśa's. Prabhupāda: Harikeśa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he read it to us in India. He's preaching, I think, in Eastern Europe sometimes. We got a report. Has he written you? Prabhupāda: Yes. I heard that, but is he being all right or not? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From the report it appears that he goes occasionally into some Eastern European countries. Mostly he's concentrating in England, Germany and Scandinavias. He has a party, and they are doing speaking engagements and distributing books. And sometimes he went in . . . which countries? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Czechoslovakia, Hungary. He went to Budapest. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is going to some Communist European countries. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They make their vans with false bottoms, and they hide the books underneath, so at the border they do not see. Underneath the van is all your books. When they get in the country then they distribute the books to these students. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Revolution. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Sometimes he said when he's speaking, the translator will not say what he is saying because it's . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes he forgets—usually he speaks very carefully, guarded words. But once or twice he says . . . he starts speaking direct Krishna consciousness, and the translator looks at him and won't translate it into the local language. Sometimes he forgets himself and starts speaking about Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the translator suddenly looks at him. Usually he covers everything. Prabhupāda: He has done a good job. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is a fit person, very intelligent. Prabhupāda: So in this way . . . you are all intelligent; you can plan. The aim is how to distribute books. That is first consideration. (break) In Bhāgavata it is very figuratively described that we have got this body and the different parts. Just like Arjuna is sitting on the chariot. There is chariot driver, there are horses, reins, there is wheel, and the arrow and the bow. They have been figuratively . . . so this can be used for killing the enemies of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and then give up all this paraphernalia, chariot, wheel. Just like after fighting, only victory, then you kill them. And similarly this body is there, the mind is there, the senses are there. So utilize it for conquering over this material existence. And then give up your body and go back to home. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Does the devotee . . . I mean, just like you are always enthusing us to push on . . . *Prabhupāda: That is sharpening your weapons. That is also described. By serving the spiritual master, you keep your weapon always sharpened. And then take help from Kṛṣṇa, the words of spiritual master sharpen weapon, and yasya prasādad bhagavata . . . and the spiritual master is happy, then Kṛṣṇa immediately will help. He gives you strength. Suppose you have got a sword, sharpened sword. But if you have no strength, what will you do with the sword? Kṛṣṇa will give you the strength, how to fight and kill the enemies. Everything is described. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu, guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya (CC Madhya 19.151). Make your weapon sharpened by the instruction of the spiritual master, and then Kṛṣṇa will give you strength, you'll be able to conquer. This figurative explanation I think last night I give. Here is a verse, acyuta-balaḥ, acyuta-balaḥ (SB 7.15.45). Is Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa here? Hari-śauri: (calls out) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: We are soldiers of Kṛṣṇa, servant of Arjuna. Simply we have to act accordingly, then you will finish our enemies. They have no power, although their number is hundred times. Just like Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, they have no power, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BG 18.78). Keep Kṛṣṇa in your side, then everything will be successful. Tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtiḥ . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have to go now, catch our airplane. You'll be coming to America in about a month's time? Hari-śauri: Three weeks. Prabhupāda: I think so. Hari-śauri: Three weeks. Prabhupāda: Three weeks. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Ratha*-yātrā in New York is taking place on July 18th. So I think it's . . . Prabhupāda: So if I go earlier in New York, my place is available? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. If you like to come it's ready. It'll be ready for you. Prabhupāda: Hmm, I want to go. I want to see how this new building is . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Utilized. Prabhupāda: Because I went there in New York, no place to stay. It is very engladdening we have got now nice building. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This place is the best facility we have in the movement. (break) *Prabhupāda: Baladeva means Nityānanda. Nitāiyer karuṇā habe braje rādhā*-kṛṣṇa pābe . In this way I was praying. Balarām hoile nitāi . So this word bolo I . . . (indistinct) . . . it is supported by Vedic version: nāyam ātmā bala-hinena labhyaḥ . Without Baladeva . . . give this garland to him and this flower to that boy . . . (indistinct) (end) Prabhupāda: Where did he get this idea, not to trust me? . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: So that's what I was trying to ask. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: That's what I was trying to ask. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: That was the reason that I was trying to ask those questions. Prabhupāda: He has become impersonal. He is simply out of the jurisdiction of personal care. The guru is personal or Kṛṣṇa is impersonal? Govinda dāsī: He speaks of the guru principle and that his spiritual master is within his heart, and that . . . and he doesn't accept the personal service of the physical manifestation. Prabhupāda: He does not understand. Don't . . . (indistinct) . . . who cares for his philosophy? Govinda dāsī: Not for very long. I am simply concerned for him. Prabhupāda: That is natural, but if he wants to avoid being saved, then how can you save him? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: If he wants to commit suicide, then who can save him? He will do it . . . (indistinct) Devotee: He's downstairs in the morning. Prabhupāda: What he doing? Devotee: I don't know. I stay up here during ārati in case you mean . . . Prabhupāda: Govinda? Govinda dāsī: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Prabhupāda: Where did he get this idea, not to trust me? . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: So that's what I was trying to ask. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: That's what I was trying to ask. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: That was the reason that I was trying to ask those questions. Prabhupāda: He has become impersonal. He is simply out of the jurisdiction of personal care. The guru is personal or Kṛṣṇa is impersonal? Govinda dāsī: He speaks of the guru principle and that his spiritual master is within his heart, and that . . . and he doesn't accept the personal service of the physical manifestation. Prabhupāda: He does not understand. Don't . . . (indistinct) . . . who cares for his philosophy? Govinda dāsī: Not for very long. I am simply concerned for him. Prabhupāda: That is natural, but if he wants to avoid being saved, then how can you save him? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: If he wants to commit suicide, then who can save him? He will do it . . . (indistinct) Devotee: He's downstairs in the morning. Prabhupāda: What he doing? Devotee: I don't know. I stay up here during ārati in case you mean . . . Prabhupāda: Govinda? Govinda dāsī: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . cannot say sometimes it is dark. (coughs) Is that truth, that sun is sometimes dark, sometimes light? This is their intelligence. But we have to be guided by these rascals. That is the dangerous position in the modern world. All the leaders are rascals: religious, political, social. Any field of activities, just try to advise us. Now this Indira Gandhi is convicted: "You must leave your post. It is taken." Just see, (s)he is the guidance of the whole nation, and (s)he is a culprit. Where is that, the secure? The mother is killing child, you see. And the prime minister is a thief; the president is a rogue. This is the . . . in your country, big country, and a big rogue. And India, it is big country also, culture, there is a thief. The mother is the best shelter for child. She is mother, then where is protection? (child crying in background) This is going on. The mother is no more shelter; *the king is no more protector. Then? Where is shelter? This is the . . . and long, long ago, at least three thousand years ago, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita warned, viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja*-kuleṣu ca : "Government men and women should not be trusted." This is the . . . and this, they elected the woman politician. Why she does become victim? (devotee laughs) *I think yesterday I was talking that this Indira Gandhi was going to the hospital for abortion, twice times in a year. That is discussed . . . (indistinct) . . . there are many, Indira Gandhi—we don't wish to discuss—but she is, that is . . . she has no culture, no character, she's not very much educated. But anyway, so*-called education, what is the value? And she is leader. Whatever she says, that is final. I think somebody told me that Nixon, "Resign on condition from . . . (indistinct)" *Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. It is secret, but it is well*-accepted fact. So Ford pardoned him. Prabhupāda: So that means he is dishonest. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: For his post as president he played this dishonesty. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. He made a deal. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is the king's duty to see that there must be judgment for culprit and innocent. But from the very beginning, start, the judgment is in favor of the rogue. Then how we can expect justice? Beginning is dishonesty. Anyway, this should be reduced. They do not want character. No religion, no character. That's a different . . . Paramahaṁsa: That is why they will consider us . . . consider this philosophy—the people in power—they will consider this philosophy very dangerous to them, because it would make it so that they could not plunder so easily. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: It would make it so they can't plunder as easily. The people have some knowledge, then it won't be as easy for the leaders to plunder, to exploit. So they don't want the people to have this knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Then our preaching is finished. There is a story of this "have knowledge." One brahmin , he was very much poverty*-stricken, so he could not find any things, valuable. Very poverty-stricken. So he knew one gang of thieves, so he went there. He met that chief, gang, "Sir, I know you. I have no . . . (indistinct) . . . so I have come to you. You can also take me as one of you . . . (indistinct) . . . I can steal." So "All right, you may come." So they went to some house to plunder. All the assistants were plundering here and there, and he was also doing also. So as soon as he touches something, he remembered, "If I steal this gold, then such-and-such punishment will be assessed." He is a brāhmaṇa-pandit , he knows. "How can I steal?" He left over that. Then he touches something else, . . . (indistinct) . . . and he remembers . . . Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) Not a very good crook. Prabhupāda: So he saw that the householder, they chewed some pān , and after chewing he has thrown, so he took that. "I don't see . . . (indistinct) . . . let's go." Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: So when they gathered together, the leader: "What you have stolen? What you have got?" Somebody said: "We have so much . . ." And when he was asked, he said: "I have got this." (devotees laugh) So he became very angry, "So how can you stay with us, you cannot be a thief?" "Where I was searching I got so many opportunities, but after searching, the śāstra says, "If you steal like that, you suffer like this. Kindly don"t do that.' Therefore I thought there is no any injunction for this." So (laughing) the leader could understand. Then out of sympathy he said: "All right, you are poor man. You came to us, you cannot steal, so whatever we have got today you can take it." Then he said: "How can I take it? It is stolen property." And he went away, again the same poverty*-stricken. He could not improve his position. *So this is the social condition. And if we teach them not to become drunkard, not to become women*-hunter, the modern society, they find that "Where is our business? Our business is to keep hotels, brothels and, what is called, topless, bottomless hotels, and drinking house and smoking cigarettes, and then so many . . . and where is our business? To teach the lowest to give up this . . . (indistinct) . . . where is our business? Then we have to close up." Paramahaṁsa: Wow. Prabhupāda: This is our position. Therefore it is said: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." That I was thinking in the beginning, that "I have come here as wise man . . . (indistinct) . . . how these rascals will accept? They are so much addicted to all these things." I never expected that anyone will accept it. It is simply Kṛṣṇa's grace that some of you have accepted it; otherwise I was hopeless. Bon Mahārāja was hopeless. He left, and so many big, big horses came, and I was a little horse . . . Boro boro ghoda gelo rasatal, beto ghoda bole koto jol. (Big big horses got swept away but the pony wants to know how much water is there.) Horse, they’re swimmer. But the stream was so strong, big, big horses were carried away. And one pony, he came, "Can you tell me how much water is there?" That means he wants to cross over. He was informed that many, many big horses, they jumped over and were carried away, but still he stayed. So my position was like that. Big, big Vivekananda and so on and so on, so many came, and they became victimized themselves. Instead of stopping illicit sex he became subject to illicit sex, and when he returned India he brought with him two women secretaries and intimate companions. That was Vivekananda. One was Sister Nivedita, and another was some other obscure, some. He could not find any male disciples. He took to cheat women. This is Vivekananda's achievement . . . (indistinct) . . . when he retired, two women, and one of them was very intimately connected. This is . . . Paramahaṁsa: The more that people accept and understand what you are teaching, the more dangerous you will be seen. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: The more dangerous you will be seen. You will be seen as a threat to the way of life, so there will be so many powers that want to stop. And universities are connected with the government. Universities are part of the . . . actually government sponsored. The government is full of the biggest rogues, so, er . . . but on the university campuses there are some good people. In other words, there are some intelligent people in the universities who will be able to appreciate. Prabhupāda: So why they keep the subject matter in philosophy? They . . . the subject matter is spent—atheist. We study, people who are atheists, moralists. Devotee (2): (showing something) Is that all right? Prabhupāda: Aiye . Yesterday you were talking about the philosophy of not the person but the soul who is in the person, like that. What did you say, Gaurasundara told you? Govinda dāsī: That the principle . . . it's the principle of guru , not the person. In other words, not . . . you're saying that to worship and serve you directly as Śrīla Prabhupāda as the personality that we know and love is . . . Prabhupāda: So he is following the principles of guru's instruction? Govinda dāsī: Well, he doesn't . . . he's changing all the time. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Then what is the use? Govinda dāsī: So it's not . . . I expect him to continue to change. But this is just what he is most . . . Prabhupāda: Change means he has no knowledge. He has not taken any knowledge. Change means that. Govinda dāsī: In other words, he is saying that the . . . Prabhupāda: But what is the use of his saying, if he is saying today something, tomorrow he will say something else? What is the use of his saying? Govinda dāsī: Well, there are a number of people who also accept what he is saying. Prabhupāda: That's all right. One fool is followed by another. That is another thing. But with this changing, then what is the value of his saying? And apart from that, there is Radhakrishnan's statement that Lord Kṛṣṇa, the person, er, the spirit within. That is Radhakrishnan's philosophy. This is not applicable to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa . . . we have got inside soul; *outside, this material body. Kṛṣṇa is all*-spiritual, therefore He has no such distinction, "inside" or "outside." We conditioned souls, we are inside, the soul; outside, this material body. And it is changing. Today I have got this body, next another body, next another body. Therefore I as spirit soul, Brahman, I am different from my body. Kṛṣṇa is not like that. Kṛṣṇa has no changing. He is Supreme Brahman. He hasn't got to change. Without changing He can be present anywhere and everywhere. That is His . . . *So Dr. Radhakrishnan's statement, it is wrong, and we protest that he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. And therefore we condemn him, that he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and still he is writing commentary on Bhagavad*-gītā . Just like Gandhi, he also, they . . . to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy job. Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye ( BG 7.3): out of millions and millions people, somebody has tried to become perfect. That's a fact. Who is eager to become perfect, so many? Nobody cares for it. "Hah! Let me enjoy life." Kṛṣṇa also says the same thing: manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye , "Somebody tries to become perfect," and yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ , "and those who have become perfect, out of many of them, one may know Me." *So to understand Kṛṣṇa is not easy. Even those who have become perfect, they cannot understand. So the Radhakrishnan, how he can understand? He is not perfect even. Amongst the perfect also it is very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa. So we see that. Gandhi says that, "I don't believe that there was any person ever living as Kṛṣṇa." Just see. This is the position of big, big, so*-called big men. They do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa. And still they have the audacity to write comments on Gītā . So what will Gaurasundara will understand? Therefore why has he changed? Paramahaṁsa: Gaurasundara is using . . . Kṛṣṇa as separate from His body? Govinda dāsī: No, the spiritual master is not, I don't think . . . the spiritual master should not be served on the material platform but like we are serving. He considers all this on the material platform, our service to you directly, our service to Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: Then he does not know . . . *Govinda dāsī: That's a low*-level sentiment. Prabhupāda: Spiritual activities are not on the material platform. Govinda dāsī: The spiritual master is not to be considered . . . (sounds in background) Prabhupāda: (aside) Why don't you take one almirah ? This big almirah ? Devotee: All right. Prabhupāda: So that "inside," "outside" is not for Kṛṣṇa. Govinda dāsī: It's not for the spiritual master either. Prabhupāda: Yes, not for the spiritual master. Govinda dāsī: It's not to be applied to the spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: It's not to be applied to the spiritual master, either, just like . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: The spiritual master is not to be considered . . . I mean, I consider you to be completely on the spiritual platform . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already explained: sākṣād*-dharitvena . He is directly like. That is to be understood. That's a fact. If somebody thinks that he has got a material body, even if one thinks that is material body, that body is not acting materially. The body is acting as spiritual. So even you say that he has got a material body, the body is no more acting materially—therefore it is spiritual. Paramahaṁsa: Yes . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: And he also, this attitude . . . and this has been ever since he first left, since the first time, when he first left, and has continued as his attitude. Since the first time actually he took . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Even Vaiṣṇava . . . Govinda dāsī: . . . that all spiritual masters are the same. *Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava . . . vaiṣṇave jāti*-buddhi : anything that is spiritually engaged, that is spiritual. Why the spiritual master? Anything. Now this table (knocks on table), it is used for spiritual purpose—therefore it is spiritual. The temple . . . why the temple was? Because temple is not an ordinary thing. It is used for spiritual purpose. Everything is used. Paramahaṁsa: The example of Lord Caitanya carrying Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Devotee: Er, excuse me. There is that one Indian doctor, the lady doctor who came to see you last time, she came, and she want to know if she can see you now or sometime . . . *Prabhupāda: No, she can come. So anything engaged in spiritual service . . . the example is the iron rod put into the fire. Everyone knows it is iron rod, but it acts as fire. (break) So why not anything which is always engaged in spiritual service is not spiritual? Where is the difficulty to understand? Anyone who has no other business than spiritual, then he is spiritual. The same example: when the rod is not acting as iron rod but acting as fire, so what is the objection to call it fire? Actually it is burning. Why it should be iron? Eh? Where is the argument? So anyone—spiritual master or anyone—who is twenty*-four-hours engaged in spiritual service, he is spiritual. Even though he has got this material body, he is spiritual . . . aiye! Indian lady: Namaskāra. Prabhupāda: Namaskāra. Indian Lady: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Accha. Besh . . . (Okay. Fine . . .) Bālajī? Indian lady: Ah, Bālajī. Paramahaṁsa: The example of Lord Caitanya carrying the body of Haridāsa Ṭhākura is evidence that the body is perfectly spiritual. *Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . if you want to argue, this is the argument, logic. So how you can refute it? An iron rod, you put into the fire. Everyone knows that it is iron rod. And when it is red hot, then even though you know it is iron rod, but it is fire. Similarly, material body, when it is saturated with spiritual activities, it is no more material. What is material and spiritual, what is the distinction? The distinction is that when we forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Now we say it is day because there is light, and when there is no light it is night. But where is the situation changed? The situation is the same: the same planet, the same tree, the same house. Now we say it is day, and at night the same house, the same land, the same tree, it will be night. So what is the difference? The difference is presence and absence of the sun. So on account of presence and absence of Kṛṣṇa things become material and spiritual. If you keep yourself always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness then you are spiritual, and if you forget Kṛṣṇa, material. Just like the sky. The sky is always clear, but when there is occasional appearance of the cloud then you say the sky is not clear. Sky is always clear. When it is covered by the cloud it is called not clear. Clearness means surpassing the condition of not*-clearness. Paramahaṁsa: Surpassing the condition of what? Prabhupāda: (to guest) You can come here. So if you keep always in clear condition, then it is all right. That is Brahman. And if you bring cloud, then it is material, polluted. So the cloud is not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Consciousness is there. If you keep it always Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is spiritual, and if you bring some other consciousness—material things—then it is material consciousness. Consciousness is already there. That the sky is already there, you bring in clouds, then it is not clear . . . the whole night cloudy sky, and then as soon as the cloud is cleared, the sky is very nice. Similarly, we are trying to bring Kṛṣṇa, or clear sky. That is our program. Actually that is the condition of sky. Sky is always clear. Some portion, it becomes dark on account of; *tiny portion. When this Hawaii, it is cloudy, it does not mean the whole sky is cloudy. Millions and millions of miles you go out of the cloud you will see everything clear. By aeroplane you have got experience. Downward the plane you will find some clouds, say few thousand miles, but what is few thousand miles in the sky? Few million miles also is nothing. Therefore the spiritual world is unlimited. It is only, only portion—this material world—little portion. Ekāṁśena sthito jagat , that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā (BG 10.42). Only a little portion, this material world. Not that this material world is a, I mean . . . no. The sky is expanding four billion miles up and down, this diameter. Even a few million miles covered by cloud, what is that? How many millions make a billion? (pause) Prabhupāda: Hundred million? Paramahaṁsa: Yes, I think so. Prabhupāda: Or thousand million? There is . . . so this question of billions of miles, so say even one million of miles becomes cloudy. That is not joke, one million miles; *you cannot imagine. Twenty*-five thousand miles, finish our world. What is the question of million? If you go twenty-five thousand miles, then the world area is finished. So this question of millions . . . millions, many millions, billion and such four billion. That is the space. So even hundred miles, two hundred miles, that is cloudy, it doesn't affect the sky, neither the sun. We are affected. Our eyes are covered. We say: "There is no sun." We are affected; *not that there is no God, there is no sun. We are poor fellow. Our teeny knowledge is affected, and we say there is no sun. Just like same, rabbit philosophy: close the eyes—there is no enemy . . . the enemy is in front, to kill him. He, out of fear, closes the eyes, and he thinks there is no enemy. And the maṇḍūka, kūpa*-maṇḍūka , three-feet water, he thinks that this is the area of water. And if he is informed about the Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, what he will understand? And every one of these rascals, they are trying to understand God from his standard of understanding. Kūpa-maṇḍūka . Just like the frog is trying to understand Atlantic Ocean by measuring the well, that's all. This is position. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). He does not know what is the real position. Paraṁ bhāvam. Paraṁ bhāvam, ajānanto —without any knowledge. So we have to take knowledge of God from God. That we have got. Don't manufacture your God. Rascal, that will never be successful. All the rascals, they are manufacturing their own God, and this is being supported: yato mata tato patha . (addressing Indian lady) Apni jana ? Yato mata tato patha. Indian lady: Ki ? Prabhupāda: Yato mata tato patha. Indian lady: Ah . . . (indistinct) . . . roads. Prabhupāda: Ah. Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says mām ekaṁ , but these rascals say: "No, no, you can manufacture anything, and you can go." Paramahaṁsa: Is that what Siddha says? Govinda dāsī: Siddha? More or less. Prabhupāda: But that is the way, that . . . Govinda dāsī: That all the ways are the same. That . . . Prabhupāda: "You are perfect, I am perfect." If I say you are imperfect, then I become. Indian lady: They are using that in psychology now, "I'm okay, you're are okay." And then next they say the same connection, you know. Guest: "I'm okay, you are okay." It's a philosophy, so everything's all right. (laughter) Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says: "I am okay. You are not okay. You surrender." That is it. Paramahaṁsa: The psychologists now, they . . . Indian lady: They are using the same philosophy. Prabhupāda: They have no other way, because they are imperfect. So if I say: "You are imperfect," then I remain imperfect. Indian lady: No, but they are saying that, "You are all right and I am all right." Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, unless I say you are all right, how I can become all right? Indian lady: This is why they are using this. Prabhupāda: This is the reason. This is the reason. If I say: "You are not all right," then you will say: "You are also not perfect." (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: And I want you . . . Prabhupāda: Just to make a compromise. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So I am right, you are right. Paramahaṁsa: Because you don't want anyone to say that . . . Prabhupāda: He's wrong! (laughter) Govinda dāsī: The thing is accepted . . . Indian lady: Yes. They don't dig up your past, and they don't have to know anything about, so you become more equal with them, and then they accept you as you are. It is working better with the . . . Prabhupāda: What is working? Indian lady: This concept. Prabhupāda: "That is working" means you do not die? Indian lady: No, but . . . you're going to die. Prabhupāda: Then why . . . how it is working? Govinda dāsī: More or less there are so many . . . Prabhupāda: What do you mean by working? Indian lady: It means that this problem they are raising . . . Prabhupāda: What is the problem? Indian lady: You are . . . Prabhupāda: Your problem is that you do not wish to die, but you will die. That is the real problem. Indian lady: I think we want to die, that we can't avoid it. Prabhupāda: Then where is your problem solved? Indian lady: That is I . . . Prabhupāda: You make a compromise. The problem is not solved. Your problem is, "I do not want to die." You are sitting, now there is something, danger, signal, immediately you will be afraid, "What shall I do?" That means you do not want to die. This is your problem. Indian lady: As long as we have fear of death, we are not free. Prabhupāda: There must be death, and there must be fear. Then where is your problem solved? That is foolishness, "Now okay, everything is okay." What is okay? Paramahaṁsa: Nothing is okay. Prabhupāda: They are foolishness. Where you are okay? (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: And when you say like that, they say: "You are a pessimist." Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. But you cannot say okay. (laughter) Devotee: You are a realist. Prabhupāda: These are rascals, simply rascals. Paramahaṁsa: It's like the rabbits. Prabhupāda: You say? Paramahaṁsa: If they can . . . Prabhupāda: They say okay. Close the eyes and "Okay." Paramahaṁsa: Everything is okay. And they look at each other and say: "It's okay, it's okay, it's okay . . ." but all around them is death, but they are helping keeping themself in illusion, helping keep each other in illusion. Indian lady: But let me explain to you that they know also that they are okay. Paramahaṁsa: But they are not. That's illusion, though. Indian lady: But they are not okay, but still it makes them feel okay that, "If he is all right, I am also all right." So . . . Prabhupāda: That is called frog philosophy. Indian lady: What is? Prabhupāda: Frog philosophy. (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: Frog philosophy. *Prabhupāda: The frog within the well, three*-feet water. Indian lady: Yes. Prabhupāda: He thinks, "My knowledge of water is complete." But when his friend says: "Oh, there is vast water," "What is that, four feet? All right, five feet?" He will calculate, "Three feet? All right, little more? Four feet? Come on. Six feet? Ten feet?" He cannot think of actually what is Pacific Ocean. He is making "okay," like that. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Three to four, four to five, five to six. Paramahaṁsa: It seems like . . . Prabhupāda: He does not know any number of feet he will increase, it is not okay. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: He does not know. Paramahaṁsa: People want to be in illusion that it's okay so that they can enjoy more nicely, because if they are not feeling that it's okay, that there is some danger, then they can't be in the enjoying spirit as much. They can't have the spirit of enjoyment. So to be able to enjoy the world better, they like to have a mind which is . . . Prabhupāda: Crippled. (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: Crippled. (laughs) They would say relaxed. Illusioned. Govinda dāsī: They don't want to be in anxiety. Prabhupāda: That is their opinion. Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to know the truth, because that would . . . *Prabhupāda: That is called kūpa*-maṇḍūka-nyāya, a crippled mind. A frog in the well. The same philosophy. Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to know. Indian lady: Yeah, they don't want to know the truth. It hurts. Paramahaṁsa: Because then it would make it so they would not enjoy it so nicely. Indian lady: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: They would also have to change. Indian lady: . . . (indistinct) Paramahaṁsa: They are . . . everybody is always continually trying to forget death. They have so many ways to try to forget. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is advised by . . . I think Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, that the karmīs should think always that he will never die; otherwise he cannot work. Paramahaṁsa: He can't enjoy. He can't do anything. Prabhupāda: And those who are jñānīs , they should think always, "I may die immediately." That is the difference between karmī and jñānī . Paramahaṁsa: "I may die immediately"? Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Is there any guarantee that you will not die immediately? Indian lady: When we think that, then we are . . . Prabhupāda: You think—it is a fact. You think or not think. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is a fact. Therefore I was saying the other day that to die, there is no wonder, but to live, that is wonder. Because you can die at any moment. So you are still living, that is wonder. Indian lady: Yes. Prabhupāda: And death, everyone knows, "I will die." So where is wonder? Nobody won't die. So death is not wonder. To live is wonder. Therefore we should utilize the lifetime properly, not a single moment lost. Then it will . . . living is wonder. Death is not wonder. Any moment you can die. And they are happily running this car—at any moment he can die. Is there any insurance that they will not die? There is insurance of car accident, but there is no insurance that he will not die. Just go to one insurance company that you will not die. Then you will be prosecuted. So this is a fact. Death is not wonder; to live is wonder. *That Khaṭvāṅga*-rāja, he joined with the demigods to fight with the demons. So the demigods were very much pleased. They wanted to give some benediction, "You have done so much for us. You take some benediction." He first of all questioned, "Now what is the duration of my life, left, balance?" Then they said: "Your duration of life is one moment," according to their calculations. So he immediately thought it wise, "Then what is the use of your benediction? Let me take sannyāsa ." This is intelligence, that "I am living; *this is wonder. I can die at any moment. So I have to finish my Kṛṣṇa conscious business." So not a single moment should be wasted. This is . . . that I can die at any moment, and if you do not finish my Kṛṣṇa consciousness business before death, then I do not know how I am going to change my body. If I finish my Kṛṣṇa conscious business, then, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), then I can go back to home, back to Godhead. If I do not finish, then I will have to change this body. Yes. That is seriousness of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Labdhvā sudurlabham idaṁ bahu*-sambhavānte mānuṣyam arthadam (SB 11.9.29). I have got this body, human form of body, after evolution of so many species and forms of life. They do not know. They are doomed to . . . (indistinct) So one who will mislead him, he is his friend, and one who will speak the real truth . . . Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to hear you. Prabhupāda: "Swami is very conservative," they say. "Bhaktivedanta Swami is very conservative." Can I change my . . . (indistinct)? "Swamiji, you are very conservative." Because I do not say: "Whatever you like, you do; whatever you like, you drink; whatever you like . . ." There is no . . . Paramahaṁsa: "You're okay, I'm okay." Prabhupāda: "Everything okay." That I do not. Therefore I am not popular. Paramahaṁsa: They do not want to hear of their actual position. Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Just now you were saying people do not like it. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. No, I am saying, that . . . yes. (laughs) Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to hear . . . if you say: "You are going to die," they immediately get mad at you, "Don't tell me about that. I don't want to know about that." (laughter) "I almost forgot. I was just forgetting that." (laughs) People are amazed that we are always talking about death. They don't want to talk about death. They don't want to hear about death. They hide death; they don't want to think of it in any way. But it seems that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. I have heard many big men that say, "Why you bother about death?" You are dying at every moment, before the actual death. They say. Because you are bothering about death, that means before actual death you are dying every moment. Death, "Why you care for death? Let it come when it will come." That is their philosophy. Paramahaṁsa: It means they are afraid of . . . Prabhupāda: You are afraid of death, that means before actual death you are simply dying. You have no enjoyment of life. This is their argument. Devotee: Sometimes their philosophy is, "Death is just one moment and life is many, many moments. So why not think about life?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: But that means that they are afraid of death. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, I know their argument. Indian lady: No, but the ones who know that they are going to die, if they have . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . blinking eyes. Paramahaṁsa: The devotee is . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I have said the karmīs shall forget about death, then they will be able to work. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hard, like ass. The ass does not know, like that. He loads the body, tons of clothes, washerman. So remain ass. Karmī means ass. The karmi , they are compared with ass. Paramahaṁsa: There is that story . . . Prabhupāda: Just like this tomato, so many tomatoes. I'll eat . . . I may eat one or two. But why they are collecting so much? So these rascal karmī , they are collecting money, collecting money, eat. So there will be used only a few dollars. Therefore they are ass. You don't require so much money, and he will pick all the girlfriends to go there and talk . . . (indistinct) Devotee: They will find some ridiculous use for it, if they have it. Paramahaṁsa: That is difficult. They have a hard time finding money. Prabhupāda: Ass means he does not know his actual interest. He'll eat some grass, and the grass is available everywhere, but he is thinking that "If I do not carry the load of the washerman I'll not get." This is ass. Indian lady: Grass . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Hah? Indian lady: (indistinct Hindi) . . . you call it grass. Something . . . Prabhupāda: No, the ass eats grass. Indian lady: Oh, the ass eats grass. Oh. Prabhupāda: So grass is available everywhere, but he has become the servant of the washerman because the washerman gives some grass. After taking his service, carrying tons of cloth, he cannot move. He is doing that. He is thinking, "I must have to do this because otherwise this washerman will not give me grass." He does not need anything more than the grass, a few morsels. As soon as the ass comes to the destination, then the load is taken away and he is given some grass, and he stands there whole day. Again he will load. So why he is standing, thinking himself as dependent on the washerman? Because he is thinking, "The washerman is giving me grass." He does not think that, "I can get grass anywhere sufficiently. Why shall I remain a servant of the washerman?" That is ass quality, mūḍhā . They can get very easily their food, huh, by plowing some land with some bull. But they are starting big, big industry. Big, big. Why? And the land is neglected. They are not growing food grains, they are growing sugarcane, the others, pineapple. Who will eat so much sugar, pine? No. They will do business. This is capitalism. Therefore the Communists, they are revolting, "Why shall I serve him?" (end) Prabhupāda: . . . cannot say sometimes it is dark. (coughs) Is that truth, that sun is sometimes dark, sometimes light? This is their intelligence. But we have to be guided by these rascals. That is the dangerous position in the modern world. All the leaders are rascals: religious, political, social. Any field of activities, just try to advise us. Now this Indira Gandhi is convicted: "You must leave your post. It is taken." Just see, (s)he is the guidance of the whole nation, and (s)he is a culprit. Where is that, the secure? The mother is killing child, you see. And the prime minister is a thief; the president is a rogue. This is the . . . in your country, big country, and a big rogue. And India, it is big country also, culture, there is a thief. The mother is the best shelter for child. She is mother, then where is protection? (child crying in background) This is going on. The mother is no more shelter; *the king is no more protector. Then? Where is shelter? This is the . . . and long, long ago, at least three thousand years ago, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita warned, viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja*-kuleṣu ca : "Government men and women should not be trusted." This is the . . . and this, they elected the woman politician. Why she does become victim? (devotee laughs) *I think yesterday I was talking that this Indira Gandhi was going to the hospital for abortion, twice times in a year. That is discussed . . . (indistinct) . . . there are many, Indira Gandhi—we don't wish to discuss—but she is, that is . . . she has no culture, no character, she's not very much educated. But anyway, so*-called education, what is the value? And she is leader. Whatever she says, that is final. I think somebody told me that Nixon, "Resign on condition from . . . (indistinct)" *Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. It is secret, but it is well*-accepted fact. So Ford pardoned him. Prabhupāda: So that means he is dishonest. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: For his post as president he played this dishonesty. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. He made a deal. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is the king's duty to see that there must be judgment for culprit and innocent. But from the very beginning, start, the judgment is in favor of the rogue. Then how we can expect justice? Beginning is dishonesty. Anyway, this should be reduced. They do not want character. No religion, no character. That's a different . . . Paramahaṁsa: That is why they will consider us . . . consider this philosophy—the people in power—they will consider this philosophy very dangerous to them, because it would make it so that they could not plunder so easily. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: It would make it so they can't plunder as easily. The people have some knowledge, then it won't be as easy for the leaders to plunder, to exploit. So they don't want the people to have this knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Then our preaching is finished. There is a story of this "have knowledge." One brahmin , he was very much poverty*-stricken, so he could not find any things, valuable. Very poverty-stricken. So he knew one gang of thieves, so he went there. He met that chief, gang, "Sir, I know you. I have no . . . (indistinct) . . . so I have come to you. You can also take me as one of you . . . (indistinct) . . . I can steal." So "All right, you may come." So they went to some house to plunder. All the assistants were plundering here and there, and he was also doing also. So as soon as he touches something, he remembered, "If I steal this gold, then such-and-such punishment will be assessed." He is a brāhmaṇa-pandit , he knows. "How can I steal?" He left over that. Then he touches something else, . . . (indistinct) . . . and he remembers . . . Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) Not a very good crook. Prabhupāda: So he saw that the householder, they chewed some pān , and after chewing he has thrown, so he took that. "I don't see . . . (indistinct) . . . let's go." Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: So when they gathered together, the leader: "What you have stolen? What you have got?" Somebody said: "We have so much . . ." And when he was asked, he said: "I have got this." (devotees laugh) So he became very angry, "So how can you stay with us, you cannot be a thief?" "Where I was searching I got so many opportunities, but after searching, the śāstra says, "If you steal like that, you suffer like this. Kindly don"t do that.' Therefore I thought there is no any injunction for this." So (laughing) the leader could understand. Then out of sympathy he said: "All right, you are poor man. You came to us, you cannot steal, so whatever we have got today you can take it." Then he said: "How can I take it? It is stolen property." And he went away, again the same poverty*-stricken. He could not improve his position. *So this is the social condition. And if we teach them not to become drunkard, not to become women*-hunter, the modern society, they find that "Where is our business? Our business is to keep hotels, brothels and, what is called, topless, bottomless hotels, and drinking house and smoking cigarettes, and then so many . . . and where is our business? To teach the lowest to give up this . . . (indistinct) . . . where is our business? Then we have to close up." Paramahaṁsa: Wow. Prabhupāda: This is our position. Therefore it is said: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." That I was thinking in the beginning, that "I have come here as wise man . . . (indistinct) . . . how these rascals will accept? They are so much addicted to all these things." I never expected that anyone will accept it. It is simply Kṛṣṇa's grace that some of you have accepted it; otherwise I was hopeless. Bon Mahārāja was hopeless. He left, and so many big, big horses came, and I was a little horse . . . Boro boro ghoda gelo rasatal, beto ghoda bole koto jol. (Big big horses got swept away but the pony wants to know how much water is there.) Horse, they’re swimmer. But the stream was so strong, big, big horses were carried away. And one pony, he came, "Can you tell me how much water is there?" That means he wants to cross over. He was informed that many, many big horses, they jumped over and were carried away, but still he stayed. So my position was like that. Big, big Vivekananda and so on and so on, so many came, and they became victimized themselves. Instead of stopping illicit sex he became subject to illicit sex, and when he returned India he brought with him two women secretaries and intimate companions. That was Vivekananda. One was Sister Nivedita, and another was some other obscure, some. He could not find any male disciples. He took to cheat women. This is Vivekananda's achievement . . . (indistinct) . . . when he retired, two women, and one of them was very intimately connected. This is . . . Paramahaṁsa: The more that people accept and understand what you are teaching, the more dangerous you will be seen. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: The more dangerous you will be seen. You will be seen as a threat to the way of life, so there will be so many powers that want to stop. And universities are connected with the government. Universities are part of the . . . actually government sponsored. The government is full of the biggest rogues, so, er . . . but on the university campuses there are some good people. In other words, there are some intelligent people in the universities who will be able to appreciate. Prabhupāda: So why they keep the subject matter in philosophy? They . . . the subject matter is spent—atheist. We study, people who are atheists, moralists. Devotee (2): (showing something) Is that all right? Prabhupāda: Aiye . Yesterday you were talking about the philosophy of not the person but the soul who is in the person, like that. What did you say, Gaurasundara told you? Govinda dāsī: That the principle . . . it's the principle of guru , not the person. In other words, not . . . you're saying that to worship and serve you directly as Śrīla Prabhupāda as the personality that we know and love is . . . Prabhupāda: So he is following the principles of guru's instruction? Govinda dāsī: Well, he doesn't . . . he's changing all the time. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Then what is the use? Govinda dāsī: So it's not . . . I expect him to continue to change. But this is just what he is most . . . Prabhupāda: Change means he has no knowledge. He has not taken any knowledge. Change means that. Govinda dāsī: In other words, he is saying that the . . . Prabhupāda: But what is the use of his saying, if he is saying today something, tomorrow he will say something else? What is the use of his saying? Govinda dāsī: Well, there are a number of people who also accept what he is saying. Prabhupāda: That's all right. One fool is followed by another. That is another thing. But with this changing, then what is the value of his saying? And apart from that, there is Radhakrishnan's statement that Lord Kṛṣṇa, the person, er, the spirit within. That is Radhakrishnan's philosophy. This is not applicable to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa . . . we have got inside soul; *outside, this material body. Kṛṣṇa is all*-spiritual, therefore He has no such distinction, "inside" or "outside." We conditioned souls, we are inside, the soul; outside, this material body. And it is changing. Today I have got this body, next another body, next another body. Therefore I as spirit soul, Brahman, I am different from my body. Kṛṣṇa is not like that. Kṛṣṇa has no changing. He is Supreme Brahman. He hasn't got to change. Without changing He can be present anywhere and everywhere. That is His . . . *So Dr. Radhakrishnan's statement, it is wrong, and we protest that he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. And therefore we condemn him, that he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and still he is writing commentary on Bhagavad*-gītā . Just like Gandhi, he also, they . . . to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy job. Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye ( BG 7.3): out of millions and millions people, somebody has tried to become perfect. That's a fact. Who is eager to become perfect, so many? Nobody cares for it. "Hah! Let me enjoy life." Kṛṣṇa also says the same thing: manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye , "Somebody tries to become perfect," and yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ , "and those who have become perfect, out of many of them, one may know Me." *So to understand Kṛṣṇa is not easy. Even those who have become perfect, they cannot understand. So the Radhakrishnan, how he can understand? He is not perfect even. Amongst the perfect also it is very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa. So we see that. Gandhi says that, "I don't believe that there was any person ever living as Kṛṣṇa." Just see. This is the position of big, big, so*-called big men. They do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa. And still they have the audacity to write comments on Gītā . So what will Gaurasundara will understand? Therefore why has he changed? Paramahaṁsa: Gaurasundara is using . . . Kṛṣṇa as separate from His body? Govinda dāsī: No, the spiritual master is not, I don't think . . . the spiritual master should not be served on the material platform but like we are serving. He considers all this on the material platform, our service to you directly, our service to Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: Then he does not know . . . *Govinda dāsī: That's a low*-level sentiment. Prabhupāda: Spiritual activities are not on the material platform. Govinda dāsī: The spiritual master is not to be considered . . . (sounds in background) Prabhupāda: (aside) Why don't you take one almirah ? This big almirah ? Devotee: All right. Prabhupāda: So that "inside," "outside" is not for Kṛṣṇa. Govinda dāsī: It's not for the spiritual master either. Prabhupāda: Yes, not for the spiritual master. Govinda dāsī: It's not to be applied to the spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: It's not to be applied to the spiritual master, either, just like . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: The spiritual master is not to be considered . . . I mean, I consider you to be completely on the spiritual platform . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already explained: sākṣād*-dharitvena . He is directly like. That is to be understood. That's a fact. If somebody thinks that he has got a material body, even if one thinks that is material body, that body is not acting materially. The body is acting as spiritual. So even you say that he has got a material body, the body is no more acting materially—therefore it is spiritual. Paramahaṁsa: Yes . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: And he also, this attitude . . . and this has been ever since he first left, since the first time, when he first left, and has continued as his attitude. Since the first time actually he took . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Even Vaiṣṇava . . . Govinda dāsī: . . . that all spiritual masters are the same. *Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava . . . vaiṣṇave jāti*-buddhi : anything that is spiritually engaged, that is spiritual. Why the spiritual master? Anything. Now this table (knocks on table), it is used for spiritual purpose—therefore it is spiritual. The temple . . . why the temple was? Because temple is not an ordinary thing. It is used for spiritual purpose. Everything is used. Paramahaṁsa: The example of Lord Caitanya carrying Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Devotee: Er, excuse me. There is that one Indian doctor, the lady doctor who came to see you last time, she came, and she want to know if she can see you now or sometime . . . *Prabhupāda: No, she can come. So anything engaged in spiritual service . . . the example is the iron rod put into the fire. Everyone knows it is iron rod, but it acts as fire. (break) So why not anything which is always engaged in spiritual service is not spiritual? Where is the difficulty to understand? Anyone who has no other business than spiritual, then he is spiritual. The same example: when the rod is not acting as iron rod but acting as fire, so what is the objection to call it fire? Actually it is burning. Why it should be iron? Eh? Where is the argument? So anyone—spiritual master or anyone—who is twenty*-four-hours engaged in spiritual service, he is spiritual. Even though he has got this material body, he is spiritual . . . aiye! Indian lady: Namaskāra. Prabhupāda: Namaskāra. Indian Lady: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Accha. Besh . . . (Okay. Fine . . .) Bālajī? Indian lady: Ah, Bālajī. Paramahaṁsa: The example of Lord Caitanya carrying the body of Haridāsa Ṭhākura is evidence that the body is perfectly spiritual. *Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . if you want to argue, this is the argument, logic. So how you can refute it? An iron rod, you put into the fire. Everyone knows that it is iron rod. And when it is red hot, then even though you know it is iron rod, but it is fire. Similarly, material body, when it is saturated with spiritual activities, it is no more material. What is material and spiritual, what is the distinction? The distinction is that when we forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Now we say it is day because there is light, and when there is no light it is night. But where is the situation changed? The situation is the same: the same planet, the same tree, the same house. Now we say it is day, and at night the same house, the same land, the same tree, it will be night. So what is the difference? The difference is presence and absence of the sun. So on account of presence and absence of Kṛṣṇa things become material and spiritual. If you keep yourself always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness then you are spiritual, and if you forget Kṛṣṇa, material. Just like the sky. The sky is always clear, but when there is occasional appearance of the cloud then you say the sky is not clear. Sky is always clear. When it is covered by the cloud it is called not clear. Clearness means surpassing the condition of not*-clearness. Paramahaṁsa: Surpassing the condition of what? Prabhupāda: (to guest) You can come here. So if you keep always in clear condition, then it is all right. That is Brahman. And if you bring cloud, then it is material, polluted. So the cloud is not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Consciousness is there. If you keep it always Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is spiritual, and if you bring some other consciousness—material things—then it is material consciousness. Consciousness is already there. That the sky is already there, you bring in clouds, then it is not clear . . . the whole night cloudy sky, and then as soon as the cloud is cleared, the sky is very nice. Similarly, we are trying to bring Kṛṣṇa, or clear sky. That is our program. Actually that is the condition of sky. Sky is always clear. Some portion, it becomes dark on account of; *tiny portion. When this Hawaii, it is cloudy, it does not mean the whole sky is cloudy. Millions and millions of miles you go out of the cloud you will see everything clear. By aeroplane you have got experience. Downward the plane you will find some clouds, say few thousand miles, but what is few thousand miles in the sky? Few million miles also is nothing. Therefore the spiritual world is unlimited. It is only, only portion—this material world—little portion. Ekāṁśena sthito jagat , that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā (BG 10.42). Only a little portion, this material world. Not that this material world is a, I mean . . . no. The sky is expanding four billion miles up and down, this diameter. Even a few million miles covered by cloud, what is that? How many millions make a billion? (pause) Prabhupāda: Hundred million? Paramahaṁsa: Yes, I think so. Prabhupāda: Or thousand million? There is . . . so this question of billions of miles, so say even one million of miles becomes cloudy. That is not joke, one million miles; *you cannot imagine. Twenty*-five thousand miles, finish our world. What is the question of million? If you go twenty-five thousand miles, then the world area is finished. So this question of millions . . . millions, many millions, billion and such four billion. That is the space. So even hundred miles, two hundred miles, that is cloudy, it doesn't affect the sky, neither the sun. We are affected. Our eyes are covered. We say: "There is no sun." We are affected; *not that there is no God, there is no sun. We are poor fellow. Our teeny knowledge is affected, and we say there is no sun. Just like same, rabbit philosophy: close the eyes—there is no enemy . . . the enemy is in front, to kill him. He, out of fear, closes the eyes, and he thinks there is no enemy. And the maṇḍūka, kūpa*-maṇḍūka , three-feet water, he thinks that this is the area of water. And if he is informed about the Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, what he will understand? And every one of these rascals, they are trying to understand God from his standard of understanding. Kūpa-maṇḍūka . Just like the frog is trying to understand Atlantic Ocean by measuring the well, that's all. This is position. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). He does not know what is the real position. Paraṁ bhāvam. Paraṁ bhāvam, ajānanto —without any knowledge. So we have to take knowledge of God from God. That we have got. Don't manufacture your God. Rascal, that will never be successful. All the rascals, they are manufacturing their own God, and this is being supported: yato mata tato patha . (addressing Indian lady) Apni jana ? Yato mata tato patha. Indian lady: Ki ? Prabhupāda: Yato mata tato patha. Indian lady: Ah . . . (indistinct) . . . roads. Prabhupāda: Ah. Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says mām ekaṁ , but these rascals say: "No, no, you can manufacture anything, and you can go." Paramahaṁsa: Is that what Siddha says? Govinda dāsī: Siddha? More or less. Prabhupāda: But that is the way, that . . . Govinda dāsī: That all the ways are the same. That . . . Prabhupāda: "You are perfect, I am perfect." If I say you are imperfect, then I become. Indian lady: They are using that in psychology now, "I'm okay, you're are okay." And then next they say the same connection, you know. Guest: "I'm okay, you are okay." It's a philosophy, so everything's all right. (laughter) Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says: "I am okay. You are not okay. You surrender." That is it. Paramahaṁsa: The psychologists now, they . . . Indian lady: They are using the same philosophy. Prabhupāda: They have no other way, because they are imperfect. So if I say: "You are imperfect," then I remain imperfect. Indian lady: No, but they are saying that, "You are all right and I am all right." Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, unless I say you are all right, how I can become all right? Indian lady: This is why they are using this. Prabhupāda: This is the reason. This is the reason. If I say: "You are not all right," then you will say: "You are also not perfect." (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: And I want you . . . Prabhupāda: Just to make a compromise. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So I am right, you are right. Paramahaṁsa: Because you don't want anyone to say that . . . Prabhupāda: He's wrong! (laughter) Govinda dāsī: The thing is accepted . . . Indian lady: Yes. They don't dig up your past, and they don't have to know anything about, so you become more equal with them, and then they accept you as you are. It is working better with the . . . Prabhupāda: What is working? Indian lady: This concept. Prabhupāda: "That is working" means you do not die? Indian lady: No, but . . . you're going to die. Prabhupāda: Then why . . . how it is working? Govinda dāsī: More or less there are so many . . . Prabhupāda: What do you mean by working? Indian lady: It means that this problem they are raising . . . Prabhupāda: What is the problem? Indian lady: You are . . . Prabhupāda: Your problem is that you do not wish to die, but you will die. That is the real problem. Indian lady: I think we want to die, that we can't avoid it. Prabhupāda: Then where is your problem solved? Indian lady: That is I . . . Prabhupāda: You make a compromise. The problem is not solved. Your problem is, "I do not want to die." You are sitting, now there is something, danger, signal, immediately you will be afraid, "What shall I do?" That means you do not want to die. This is your problem. Indian lady: As long as we have fear of death, we are not free. Prabhupāda: There must be death, and there must be fear. Then where is your problem solved? That is foolishness, "Now okay, everything is okay." What is okay? Paramahaṁsa: Nothing is okay. Prabhupāda: They are foolishness. Where you are okay? (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: And when you say like that, they say: "You are a pessimist." Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. But you cannot say okay. (laughter) Devotee: You are a realist. Prabhupāda: These are rascals, simply rascals. Paramahaṁsa: It's like the rabbits. Prabhupāda: You say? Paramahaṁsa: If they can . . . Prabhupāda: They say okay. Close the eyes and "Okay." Paramahaṁsa: Everything is okay. And they look at each other and say: "It's okay, it's okay, it's okay . . ." but all around them is death, but they are helping keeping themself in illusion, helping keep each other in illusion. Indian lady: But let me explain to you that they know also that they are okay. Paramahaṁsa: But they are not. That's illusion, though. Indian lady: But they are not okay, but still it makes them feel okay that, "If he is all right, I am also all right." So . . . Prabhupāda: That is called frog philosophy. Indian lady: What is? Prabhupāda: Frog philosophy. (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: Frog philosophy. *Prabhupāda: The frog within the well, three*-feet water. Indian lady: Yes. Prabhupāda: He thinks, "My knowledge of water is complete." But when his friend says: "Oh, there is vast water," "What is that, four feet? All right, five feet?" He will calculate, "Three feet? All right, little more? Four feet? Come on. Six feet? Ten feet?" He cannot think of actually what is Pacific Ocean. He is making "okay," like that. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Three to four, four to five, five to six. Paramahaṁsa: It seems like . . . Prabhupāda: He does not know any number of feet he will increase, it is not okay. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: He does not know. Paramahaṁsa: People want to be in illusion that it's okay so that they can enjoy more nicely, because if they are not feeling that it's okay, that there is some danger, then they can't be in the enjoying spirit as much. They can't have the spirit of enjoyment. So to be able to enjoy the world better, they like to have a mind which is . . . Prabhupāda: Crippled. (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: Crippled. (laughs) They would say relaxed. Illusioned. Govinda dāsī: They don't want to be in anxiety. Prabhupāda: That is their opinion. Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to know the truth, because that would . . . *Prabhupāda: That is called kūpa*-maṇḍūka-nyāya, a crippled mind. A frog in the well. The same philosophy. Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to know. Indian lady: Yeah, they don't want to know the truth. It hurts. Paramahaṁsa: Because then it would make it so they would not enjoy it so nicely. Indian lady: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: They would also have to change. Indian lady: . . . (indistinct) Paramahaṁsa: They are . . . everybody is always continually trying to forget death. They have so many ways to try to forget. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is advised by . . . I think Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, that the karmīs should think always that he will never die; otherwise he cannot work. Paramahaṁsa: He can't enjoy. He can't do anything. Prabhupāda: And those who are jñānīs , they should think always, "I may die immediately." That is the difference between karmī and jñānī . Paramahaṁsa: "I may die immediately"? Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Is there any guarantee that you will not die immediately? Indian lady: When we think that, then we are . . . Prabhupāda: You think—it is a fact. You think or not think. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is a fact. Therefore I was saying the other day that to die, there is no wonder, but to live, that is wonder. Because you can die at any moment. So you are still living, that is wonder. Indian lady: Yes. Prabhupāda: And death, everyone knows, "I will die." So where is wonder? Nobody won't die. So death is not wonder. To live is wonder. Therefore we should utilize the lifetime properly, not a single moment lost. Then it will . . . living is wonder. Death is not wonder. Any moment you can die. And they are happily running this car—at any moment he can die. Is there any insurance that they will not die? There is insurance of car accident, but there is no insurance that he will not die. Just go to one insurance company that you will not die. Then you will be prosecuted. So this is a fact. Death is not wonder; to live is wonder. *That Khaṭvāṅga*-rāja, he joined with the demigods to fight with the demons. So the demigods were very much pleased. They wanted to give some benediction, "You have done so much for us. You take some benediction." He first of all questioned, "Now what is the duration of my life, left, balance?" Then they said: "Your duration of life is one moment," according to their calculations. So he immediately thought it wise, "Then what is the use of your benediction? Let me take sannyāsa ." This is intelligence, that "I am living; *this is wonder. I can die at any moment. So I have to finish my Kṛṣṇa conscious business." So not a single moment should be wasted. This is . . . that I can die at any moment, and if you do not finish my Kṛṣṇa consciousness business before death, then I do not know how I am going to change my body. If I finish my Kṛṣṇa conscious business, then, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), then I can go back to home, back to Godhead. If I do not finish, then I will have to change this body. Yes. That is seriousness of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Labdhvā sudurlabham idaṁ bahu*-sambhavānte mānuṣyam arthadam (SB 11.9.29). I have got this body, human form of body, after evolution of so many species and forms of life. They do not know. They are doomed to . . . (indistinct) So one who will mislead him, he is his friend, and one who will speak the real truth . . . Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to hear you. Prabhupāda: "Swami is very conservative," they say. "Bhaktivedanta Swami is very conservative." Can I change my . . . (indistinct)? "Swamiji, you are very conservative." Because I do not say: "Whatever you like, you do; whatever you like, you drink; whatever you like . . ." There is no . . . Paramahaṁsa: "You're okay, I'm okay." Prabhupāda: "Everything okay." That I do not. Therefore I am not popular. Paramahaṁsa: They do not want to hear of their actual position. Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Just now you were saying people do not like it. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. No, I am saying, that . . . yes. (laughs) Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to hear . . . if you say: "You are going to die," they immediately get mad at you, "Don't tell me about that. I don't want to know about that." (laughter) "I almost forgot. I was just forgetting that." (laughs) People are amazed that we are always talking about death. They don't want to talk about death. They don't want to hear about death. They hide death; they don't want to think of it in any way. But it seems that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. I have heard many big men that say, "Why you bother about death?" You are dying at every moment, before the actual death. They say. Because you are bothering about death, that means before actual death you are dying every moment. Death, "Why you care for death? Let it come when it will come." That is their philosophy. Paramahaṁsa: It means they are afraid of . . . Prabhupāda: You are afraid of death, that means before actual death you are simply dying. You have no enjoyment of life. This is their argument. Devotee: Sometimes their philosophy is, "Death is just one moment and life is many, many moments. So why not think about life?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: But that means that they are afraid of death. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, I know their argument. Indian lady: No, but the ones who know that they are going to die, if they have . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . blinking eyes. Paramahaṁsa: The devotee is . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I have said the karmīs shall forget about death, then they will be able to work. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hard, like ass. The ass does not know, like that. He loads the body, tons of clothes, washerman. So remain ass. Karmī means ass. The karmi , they are compared with ass. Paramahaṁsa: There is that story . . . Prabhupāda: Just like this tomato, so many tomatoes. I'll eat . . . I may eat one or two. But why they are collecting so much? So these rascal karmī , they are collecting money, collecting money, eat. So there will be used only a few dollars. Therefore they are ass. You don't require so much money, and he will pick all the girlfriends to go there and talk . . . (indistinct) Devotee: They will find some ridiculous use for it, if they have it. Paramahaṁsa: That is difficult. They have a hard time finding money. Prabhupāda: Ass means he does not know his actual interest. He'll eat some grass, and the grass is available everywhere, but he is thinking that "If I do not carry the load of the washerman I'll not get." This is ass. Indian lady: Grass . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Hah? Indian lady: (indistinct Hindi) . . . you call it grass. Something . . . Prabhupāda: No, the ass eats grass. Indian lady: Oh, the ass eats grass. Oh. Prabhupāda: So grass is available everywhere, but he has become the servant of the washerman because the washerman gives some grass. After taking his service, carrying tons of cloth, he cannot move. He is doing that. He is thinking, "I must have to do this because otherwise this washerman will not give me grass." He does not need anything more than the grass, a few morsels. As soon as the ass comes to the destination, then the load is taken away and he is given some grass, and he stands there whole day. Again he will load. So why he is standing, thinking himself as dependent on the washerman? Because he is thinking, "The washerman is giving me grass." He does not think that, "I can get grass anywhere sufficiently. Why shall I remain a servant of the washerman?" That is ass quality, mūḍhā . They can get very easily their food, huh, by plowing some land with some bull. But they are starting big, big industry. Big, big. Why? And the land is neglected. They are not growing food grains, they are growing sugarcane, the others, pineapple. Who will eat so much sugar, pine? No. They will do business. This is capitalism. Therefore the Communists, they are revolting, "Why shall I serve him?" (end) Prabhupāda: . . . she still upstairs? *Rādhā*-vallabha: No, Prabhupāda. Pālikā is up there now learning how to cook from her. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Pālikā has gone up there to learn cooking from her, and then she will come back and instruct the cooks in L.A. Devotee (2): She wrote . . . Pālikā wrote one letter saying that she wanted . . . her husband took sannyāsa , isn't it? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Bhavānanda. Devotee (2): She wanted to stay at that farm. She knew it a long time ago. *Rādhā*-vallabha: She is staying at the Press now. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: She works at the Press, Pālikā. Prabhupāda: Pālikā. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. She is transcribing all of the tapes of you lecturing back from 1966, all the way to the present. We are going to have an archive. We want to get every word that you say while you are here. Prabhupāda: So Yamunā's āśrama , how far? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Āśrama ? Devotee (3): From Los Angeles? *Rādhā*-vallabha: A thousand miles maybe. Devotee (3): It's closer to San Francisco—very far. Devotee (2): Perhaps a thousand miles, because Los Angeles is on the southern portion of California, the southern half, and Oregon is . . . remember we went to Portland? Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee (2): It's Portland, and then we went to . . . we drove across to Eugene that one day, you did a program there. Śyāmasundara was driving very fast. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee (2): I was in the car that day, and it's more or less in that area of Eugene, I believe. So it is somewhere in between, around there, that area, Portland. Prabhupāda: Near Portland? Devotee (2): Yes. It's Oregon. Portland is . . . it is a horizontal state. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oregon I remember. So . . . Devotee (2): She mentioned that she would like to come, but because there is only two of them there, and they are taking care of the Deities and they don't have much money, they may not be able to. She would like to come and see you. Prabhupāda: Money—we can send some money. Devotee (2): Hm. But then she was wondering who would take care of the Deities. Prabhupāda: No, we can go there. Devotee (2): (laughs) Prabhupāda: See how they are doing. Devotee (2): (laughing) I don't know if they're . . . I don't know what kind of facilities they will have there, though, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No facilities. (devotees laugh) Just what facility? We are not for facility, we are for service. Devotee (2): I know that. Hari Śauri: At least you'll get some good cooking. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari Śauri: At least you'll get some good cooking. Prabhupāda: Not necessary. Devotee (2): We don't know if there is a road up to the house or anything, really. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): Some farms, you know, they don't have roads up to the houses. We just don't know what the situation is. We have to make some inquiry first. (to devotees) Do you know anything about it? I don't know. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Jayatīrtha was there, I think. Now he is in England. Devotee (2): We can perhaps find out in Los Angeles a little bit more. I can write one letter to Yamunā. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Pālikā will be back. We can find . . . Devotee (2): So I will write and ask them what the situation of their farm is. Hari Śauri: Revatīnandana has been there. Prabhupāda: No man is allowed there, right? Devotee (2): So far I know. They are trying to remain completely free from any men whatsoever. Prabhupāda: That's good. *Rādhā*-vallabha: You know, in Los Angeles, Pālikā and Jadurāṇī have both cut all their hair. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Pālikā and Jadurāṇī have both cut all their hair off. (break) Prabhupāda: That's good. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Ha. Jaya . Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic system. Those who are husbandless, they should not dress attractively to attract the attention of another man. It is very difficult civilization for the Westerner. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Viśākā will be coming here to . . . for photography for BTG. She will be here soon. Devotee (2): It appears, though, that her farm is not growing very much. Prabhupāda: There is no need of growing. Devotee (2): Because there was two of them before, and still two. They are not expanding at all. Hari Śauri: Prabhupāda wrote to them not to expand. Devotee (2): But they haven't expanded at all. Prabhupāda: What is the use of expanding? Devotee (2): No women perhaps want to stay there? I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is tapasya , austerity. But she is maintaining? Devotee (2): Apparently. Prabhupāda: Deity picture is nice. Devotee (2): Yes. Flowers, everything. Prabhupāda: Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa . This is the beginning of spiritual life. Yesterday I have explained one verse, how Lord Rāmacandra comes . . . you have transcribed? *Devotee (2): On the tape? I am not quite there yet. I have only done about a third of it so far. I am on that verse where Kṛṣṇa's, His body is described, I think it's the twelfth or thirteenth verse. Kṛṣṇa's body is described as the universe. He is the oldest, and . . . there was one word, dāt*-te. Prabhupāda: Hm. Datte, datte . Devotee (2): What is that? Because I couldn't pick it up on the tape. Prabhupāda: Datte means "maintaining." Devotee (2): Datte asya ? Prabhupāda: Hm. I am describing . . . there is one verse how the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to teach the human society as Lord Rāmacandra, as Kṛṣṇa, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu. You have come to that? Devotee (2): Not yet. I'll be doing that today, finishing. Prabhupāda: I think one copy of that explanation may be given with the letter of Bajaj. Devotee (2): OK. *Prabhupāda: These rascals are manufacturing. Now they are holding this conference on account of me. Because there are so many rascals, they have interpreted Bhagavad*-gītā in so many ways, but they could not do anything, and here our propaganda is going on all over the world. Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: So they are a little ashamed. (devotees laugh) Devotee (2): Are they genuinely ashamed, or are they . . . Prabhupāda: Genuinely. Because they see, "Who cares for us?" Devotee: Who is this? Devotee (2): There are some men in Bombay, they have a conference, *Gītā* pracar conference. Prabhupāda: That Bajaj is a very rich man, and the son of very important man of Gandhi's contemporary, Vinoba Bhave, and his father, Gandhi, they were working together. His father's name was Jamnalal Bajaj. A very rich man, he joined Gandhi's movement and was financing the movement. So this man is also very big, rich man in Bombay. Very big factory of electrical . . . what is called? Devotee (2): Light bulbs? Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee (2): Light bulbs? Prabhupāda: No, no. Electrical, this fan, plug . . . Devotee (2): Appliances. Prabhupāda: Appliances, yes. Very big factory in India. Table fan, ceiling fan, all kinds of appliances. Stove. They have got very big factory, and he is the proprietor. He is our life member. He came to see me: "Is it not possible to call that? I am ready." The same thing, "I am ready." Devotee (2): Your Divine Grace is already doing . . . why don't they just join our society? Prabhupāda: And they have got this rascal interpretation. Even Gandhi did. That is individuality. Devotee (2): Why do they want to develop a separate society, *Gītā* pracar conference, or their separate work, when they can simply support our work, which is doing it already? Prabhupāda: He is organizing. He is trying to organize. But why not combine? Any moment it can be done, but this rascal will not agree. They stick their own foolishness. It will never be successful. Misinterpreting on the words of Kṛṣṇa, how much offensive it is they do not know it, and they want success. They do not take seriously that it is Kṛṣṇa's instruction. They think that somebody has written a, what is called, allegory. Devotee (2): Mythology? Prabhupāda: Mythology, yes. They do not believe there was battle of Kurukṣetra and Kṛṣṇa instructed . . . Kṛṣṇa is God and . . . they all these things . . . *Rādhā*-vallabha: At the most they will admit that Kṛṣṇa was a great personality. Prabhupāda: That's all. All this Cinmayananda and this Vinoba Bhave and Gandhi and Dr. Radhakrishnan, and all rascals, Aurabindo . . . they have taken it. Devotee (2): The evidence is there in the Vedic scriptures. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): The evidence is there in the Vedic scriptures, but it seems that they have developed this Māyāvādī philosophy, to "the within of Kṛṣṇa," that Radhakrishnan's philosophy. People have come to accept that. *Prabhupāda: Radhakrishnan has accepted, "That is very difficult, to deny Personality of God by reading Bhagavad*-gītā ." Devotee: He wrote that? (laughter) *Rādhā*-vallabha: He tried. Prabhupāda: He tried his best, but it is hardly . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): Rascals. Prabhupāda: One after another. Devotee (2): They didn't at all want to serve the purpose of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Impersonalists. "How God can be person?" They compare with themselves: "But I am a person, what can I do? How can I experience the sky?" They are in perplexity. *Devotee (2): So why do they touch Bhagavad*-gītā then? Prabhupāda: Because it is so authorized and popular. They take the advantage, proving their foolish rascal idea. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Maharishi also did one translation . . . Devotee (2): The first six chapters. *Rādhā*-vallabha: . . . very nonsense. He talks about Bhagavad-gītā as if it were some sort of high school physics course. Prabhupāda: What? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He speaks of Bhagavad-gītā in the terms of physics, energy, so much nonsense. It's impossible to understand it. Prabhupāda: Now they are becoming entrapped. " As It Is ." *Rādhā*-vallabha: By Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: And they accept it. (laughter) And this is becoming very popular; therefore they are perplexed. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Bahulāśva Prabhu goes to the colleges . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Bahulāśva gives lectures in the colleges, and he hands out Gītās to all the students, and during the lecture he says: "So turn to page such-and-such and you will see where it talks about karma ," and then, "Turn to this page . . ." And they are all going through the book, going through the book, and after the class he usually sells about five books, because they are so impressed that someone is so well versed in the Gītā and can explain it so nicely, and they take the book because they have never seen this before. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is . . . (pause and sipping noise, Prabhupāda puts cup down on table) Prabhupāda: Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam ( BG 7.25). *Rādhā*-vallabha: Sometimes the scholar accused that your translation has a Vaiṣṇava slant. (laughter) They say that although the translations are slanted towards the devotional side, still it is a very nice book. Devotee (2): That means they have some preconception already, of . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? *Devotee (2): That means they have some preconception already, what to expect from Bhagavad*-gītā . They have been contaminated. Hari Śauri: The library party was saying that . . . Prabhupāda: Who? Hari Śauri: The library party, one of them was telling me that when they present . . . the scholars, they get the books, and they like the layout and the Sanskrit and everything like that, but they are not so keen on the purports because they can't speculate on anything. It's so clear and direct they've got nothing left to say themselves. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So we cannot allow any speculation. (laughter) Just see the audacity—they are speculating on the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such rascals, and we have to accept them as authority. In Bengal it is called jakamor Jakam . Just like if a small boy speaks authoritatively before his father, superior, it is called jakam . What do you call it in English? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Upstart. Prabhupāda: Upstart, impudent. So all these rascals are jakam . *Rādhā*-vallabha: You describe that in the Third Canto, where Vidura was referred to Maitreya by Uddhava, because Uddhava was afraid to speak; although he was qualified, he didn't want to speak while Maitreya was still present, because Maitreya was older. Devotee (2): It is an offense: moya davyati krama. Moya davyati krama Is that it? Hari Śauri: You say in the purport that you mention that if . . . for one to speak in the presence of a superior, then that's an offense. (child crying) Prabhupāda: Who is this particular child, always crying? Hari Śauri: These children, it's the children from the karmī side that make all the noise. Most of our children are all pretty quiet. Prabhupāda: No, he is . . . Devotee (2): This is a devotee. Hari Śauri: This is one of the devotees, but . . . Prabhupāda: . . . I am speaking of. He is always crying. Devotee (2): They could use a gurukula here, I think. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): They could use a gurukula on this island. Hari Śauri: I think all of those children in the morning, though, they are from the other island. *Rādhā*-vallabha: There are many devotees on the island of Maui. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: There are many devotees on the island of Maui, the next island. They don't live in the temple. They also have many children. (child is still crying) Devotee (2): Rāmeśvara said that Jagadīśa is taking very seriously to expand the gurukula program. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In Los Angeles one of the neighboring ladies, a karmī lady, she was passing by, and all the gurukula children were running around outside, and she said: "Oh, these are the nicest children I have ever seen." (child is still crying) Prabhupāda: This child is a little disturbing. Devotee (2): Yeah, suffering. Prabhupāda: In the temple, no gṛhasthas allowed. (laughter) Devotee (2): Jaya . Prabhupāda: Temple is meant for brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs. Gṛhasthas may be engaged in worshiping, taking care, managing, but families should remain outside. Devotee (2): The problem is most of these women with children, they don't have any husbands—unmarried. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): One woman, she came the other day, she has one child, no husband. She was living here, and she was asked to leave because there was no space. Now she is living in the back of a car with her baby. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): She is living in the back of a car with her baby. She has no blanket even to take care of the child. No husband, just a baby living in the back of a car. Prabhupāda: Here? Devotee (2): Nearby. She's coming each morning to your lectures. Many of these women are unmarried with babies. Prabhupāda: This is the social problem: women without husband. And how scientific it was that the girl, as soon as she is above ten years, the father's responsibility, how to get her married. All my sisters were married from nine to twelve years. And the twelve years old, my second sister, she was belated . . . Devotee (2): Belated? Prabhupāda: It was lately. *Rādhā*-vallabha: She was old. *Prabhupāda: Twelve years. So my mother said to my father that, "This girl is not being married, I shall commit suicide." (devotees laugh) This is, I have seen. She was elder than me by three years, my second sister. So then hastily, somehow or other, she was married to my brother*-in-law as second wife. Second wife . . . the first wife died. Formerly the boys and girls were married earlier. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was married at the seventeen years old. He married for the second time at the age of twenty years. First wife death. So formerly this was the practice. Girl utmost ten to twelve years, and boy sixteen to seventeen or utmost thirty. Devotee (2): As soon as your sisters were married, did they remain in the same house, or did they live with the other family's house? Prabhupāda: Then, because she was twelve years old, so after one year, because generally in Bengal twelve to thirteen years is the age of puberty. My wife gave birth to first child when she was fourteen years. (devotees exclaim) She was married at eleven years old. So anyway, the idea is that it is the father's duty to get the daughter married somehow or other within thirteen years. Devotee (2): Before they reach puberty? Prabhupāda: This is Vedic system. Devotee (2): Very good system. Prabhupāda: Not necessarily the boy should be all well equipped. Simply to see that he is good health and he can work hard. That was all. No education, no money—nothing. Then depends on the fate. "I have given to you a boy who is healthy and he can work hard." Then they are fortunate. This was the system. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They also used astrology, didn't they? *Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. My mother's grandfather was very, very rich man, and his daughter was given to a boy whose family was rich, but they became poor, bankrupt. Practically poverty*-stricken. Ah, that boy. So my mother's grandmother preferred that, "This boy is hard-working and coming from a respectable family; *now they have become poor." So he gave her daughter to him, and later on my mother's grandmother gave him five hundred rupees to start some business. So that is at least 150 years ago, my mother's grandmother. So with that five hundred rupees he started a business, and he flourished in such a way that in Calcutta there is a place, it is called Kshetra. Kshetra, that Kshetra, he purchased the whole Kshetra. Now there are two big roads. One road is Govinda Chandra Auddy Road, that is the husband of my mother's aunt, and another road, Rakhal Chandra Auddy, that is my maternal uncle. So with that five hundred rupees he made a great fortune. And he had no money. It was given secretly by the mother*-in-law, that "You do something with that." Devotee (2): What kind of business did he . . .? *Prabhupāda: His . . . later on he did a, started business, some lace, lace*-making. Not very lucrative, but still. So Indians still believe that that is the . . . (indistinct) . . . the verdict of all Vedic literature, tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ (SB 1.5.18). You cannot create your fortune unless God gives you; *but you can make honest effort, then depend on God. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana (BG 2.47). That is Indian philosophy. Therefore they did not make too much endeavor—easy*-going—but do something; don't be idle. That is the philosophy. So still there is no problem. The boy is married, and he works honestly, and the wife also works honestly as householder. They live peacefully. Not that "I must have this comfort, that comfort." Just like our, that rascal . . . (break) No. All this Western wife means, they call it "White elephant." In India they call it. Devotee (2): You . . .? White women? Prabhupāda: White elephant, to maintain. Because formerly people were . . . boys were coming in the Western countries, sometimes they married European wife, and later on, after going back, they found it is a white elephant. (devotees laugh) Devotee (2): That's great. Prabhupāda: White elephant, I mean, if you cannot maintain properly, then there was divorce. Devotee (2): These women are never satisfied. Prabhupāda: Therefore they found it "White elephant," to maintain an elephant, white in color. (devotees laugh) Hari Śauri: A white elephant is particularly useless? Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari Śauri: A white elephant is more useless than another elephant? Prabhupāda: No, elephant nobody can maintain. It is very difficult to maintain, and he has to be given forty kilograms food daily, and kilo, what is called, forty kilos? Devotee (2): Hundred pounds. Hari Śauri: I was just wondering why white . . . Prabhupāda: You have seen elephant? Devotee (2): Yes, in India. Prabhupāda: Ha. For them such big capātīs are made. (devotee laughs) A whole family's wheat flour will be given, and that is also not sufficient. So many capātīs should be given. Only the kings. Now the princely order is finished, now there is no transaction for elephant, horse. No customers. Formerly there was a market yearly held: horse, elephant, all animals, cows, they were being sold, near Patna. Big. Now since last twenty years it is stopped. Nobody is going to purchase horse and . . . Hari Śauri: That, er, so . . . (break) . . . diminishing, they can't afford to keep them. Prabhupāda: Twenty is maintaining in this age; that is also to his credit, and dowry. Devotee (2): They want to do away with that also. Prabhupāda: And just see, when Kṛṣṇa's mother was married to Vasudeva, dowry: so many hundreds of chariots, so many horses, so many elephants, so many maidservants. Who will be able to keep them? Apart from ornament, jewelry, sārī to the girl, these things were also given, royal, royal family. Then if he can't maintain, then he'll not . . . otherwise what is the glory there, if he maintains only tin car? This is a tin car, canister. As soon as he is stuck up: brr, brr, brr. He has got experience, tin car. Where is elephant? *Rādhā*-vallabha: If the president just takes a little bit of money, they kick him out. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: If the president just takes a little bit of money, they kick him out immediately. Prabhupāda: President? *Rādhā*-vallabha: If the president of the United States . . . Prabhupāda: Ha. Ha. *Rādhā*-vallabha: . . . if he tries to use his position for a little bit of, ah, like a kingly enjoyment, then they just kick him out, because he's not a king. Prabhupāda: All of them are doing that. They are taking so many women. At least that Kennedy was, before. Devotee (2): Yes, that's been exposed. Prabhupāda: And this Nixon was also doing that. They take advantage. Devotee (2): There seems to be no solution, though, because in the Western society there is no protection offered by parents, so these people are coming to become devotees. So what do we do? How can we arrange our society? This is always point of discussion. Prabhupāda: We have to maintain them. They have come to Kṛṣṇa. How can we refuse them? Some arrangement may be made. The government must help. Approach government, that these unprotected girls . . . but they are . . . ha? Devotee (2): That's a very good idea. I don't know if they'll do . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, welfare society, they must pay. How we can maintain? But we cannot refuse them. Are they not getting welfare, money? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Some of them. With children they usually get welfare. Prabhupāda: So that money, they are giving to the society? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Usually they keep it for their apartment and food. It is not so much money; it is just enough for them to maintain. Prabhupāda: So they do not take prasādam in the temple? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Depends on where it is. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Depends on the location. In Los Angeles the householders get food stamps from the government, and they purchase their food like that, and they . . . Devotee (2): They . . . they are not really trained up, though. Pradyumna, he's a little bit sick, so some of the girls, they were wanting to help him, like Kuśa. So they had some food stamps, so they went out and bought the most nonsensical medicines. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): They went out and bought the most nonsensical modern medicines. Clorofil and so many things like this, and the price was $22. They bought with food stamps. Rather they could have bought so many things for offering to the Deities. Even the food stamps can be used, but no management. Prabhupāda: So this is a problem, to maintain these husbandless women. Devotee (2): Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: And also gṛhasthas . Devotee (2): Many of the gṛhasthas at least are doing saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): Many of the gṛhasthas are doing saṅkīrtana , going out and distributing books, preaching. Prabhupāda: They are giving some service. Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: That is wanted, gṛhastha . Just see the foolish law, that there is no sufficient boys to keep wife at least, and they have made laws, one wife. Why one wife? Devotee (2): In this philosophy of democracy there is not supposed to be any discrimination. They would say that this is discrimination against women, because in the Western countries actually the women have this concept that they are just as good as men. They are thinking like that, and the men are thinking also the women are probably just as good. They don't . . . Prabhupāda: Then why are they in difficulty, without husband? Devotee (2): The women argue that the men are also in difficulty. Prabhupāda: But they like that? This neglected position, lying down at the back of the car without any husband, without any provisions, they like it? Devotee (2): These white elephants are very crazy. Prabhupāda: If they like it, then let them be like that. Devotee (2): Western women are . . . they have no training at all. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They say that because they have been trained in the past that they are less intelligent and that they are weaker, therefore it has ruined them in their older age. They have to defeat all this. Devotee (2): They have to prove their independence by living without man's protection. Prabhupāda: They cannot appreciate that? Devotee (2): Man's protection? Not so much any more. There is a whole current of thought with this women's liberation. *Rādhā*-vallabha: There's no protection anyway. Devotee (2): Yes. The men run off anyway. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They are, in one sense, they are right, because the men do not protect them; they exploit them for sex life. So that is one reason why they are becoming successful in this philosophy. Prabhupāda: There is reason, but the man does not marry because there are so many implications. Devotee (2): But by nature's way women like to be protected. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore called svāmī, svāmī . Husband is called svāmī , means protector. (dogs barking) Where are these dogs? Devotee (2): That's outside, next door. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We find that in our society practically none of the brahmacārīs want to get married because they see that the women are not so chaste. Prabhupāda: That is the psychology. That is the psychology. They know that, "The girl whom I am going to marry, she will never be faithful." That is the impression. "So why shall I marry and take charge?" This is the psychology. I know in beginning, 1965, one carpenter boy he was coming to me; he gave me some benches, secondhand. So I asked him, "Why don't you get yourself married?" because I did not know. So he replied, "Swamījī, I know that I'll not get a faithful, chaste wife," he said. Then I could understand the psychology why the boys do not get married. No husband wants an unchaste, unfaithful wife. That is a shock to him. And here you have to allow the wife to go out with her friend. You cannot object. Devotee (2): Wife to go with? Prabhupāda: With her friend. *Rādhā*-vallabha: To go out with her friends; just do whatever she likes. Devotee (2): Oh, in the Western countries. Prabhupāda: I saw that John Lennon. He was maintaining her former husband or friend, the wife's . . . Devotee (2): In the same house. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yoko Ono. Prabhupāda: She already had a friend, and John Lennon wanted her. Devotee (2): So he took him also? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) And he was working as his garden manager. Now that boy has kidnapped the girl. Not the . . . the daughter, and he has went away, and now John has gone after him. Hari Śauri: They've split now, anyway. Prabhupāda: Ha? Hari Śauri: They've split up now, anyway. Devotee (2): He wrote one song, that John Lennon, it was very blasphemous. Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee (2): He wrote one song on a record album. It was called "God is a Symbol," and he mentioned George. He said: "I don't believe in this, I don't believe in that, I don't believe in *Gītā* . What has Kṛṣṇa got on you, George?" Like this. And he went on. At the end he says: "All I believe is in Yoko and me—that's reality." (laughter) Hari Śauri: He put all these things that he don't believe in, "I don't believe in heaven, and I don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, and I don't believe in this, and I don't believe in that. There's just Yoko and me." Prabhupāda: Who cares for you? Hari Śauri: That's what I thought when I read it. I thought, "Well, who cares for him anyway?" All these things are going on. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Another one of them said: "Hare Kṛṣṇa doesn't have anything on me." Prabhupāda: He said? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I think it was Paul that said that. Right? Devotee (2): No. It was John. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Rascal. *Devotee (2): Actually, they are very low*-class people. They came from Liverpool, low class. Hari Śauri: Everyone is low class. Prabhupāda: Everyone low class. What they have got? Simply they got some money and became respected. That's all. Everywhere money is everything. Only on account of, otherwise what qualifications they have got? George, suppose he has got some money, but he has got qualification, he has done something for Kṛṣṇa. He has taken. I asked him first of all $19,000 for paying the bill of Kṛṣṇa, and he paid. You know that? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Oh, yes. In America for a long time when we would distribute the books we would say: "George Harrison paid for this," and immediately they would take it. Prabhupāda: Hm. He actually did pay—$19,000. Hari Śauri: On the strength of that foreword that he put in the inside cover, that must have sold hundreds of thousands of books, just by showing them that. Prabhupāda: Yes. I asked him to write it. And I have acknowledged his money. Devotees: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We show that to people when we distribute the book. We say: "See, here the author is thanking George Harrison for the money. He has paid for it," and they go, "Aha," and they buy the book. Prabhupāda: He is a good boy. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva appeared, did He appear in India? Or was it Indra-loka? Prabhupāda: I told you . . . (indistinct) *Hari Śauri: It describes in the Bhāgavatam that Hiraṇyakaśipu, he was seated in the throne of Indra, in Indra's palace, so then we were wondering, well, did Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva appear on the planet earth or was it in Indra*-loka? Prabhupāda: It was not in this planet, so far I . . . but we are not concerned about the history; we are concerned about the pastime. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Lord Nṛsiṁha is very popular in the West. When people hear about Him . . . because in the West everyone is brought up with so many violent stories, so when they hear the story of Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, they become very attracted. Devotee (2): And everyone's father is a great demon also. Prabhupāda: So why not publish a chapter from *Bhāgavatam* ? I think Seventh Canto is full of Prahlāda's . . . Devotee (2): Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We actually did that. One time we published the Teachings of Prahlāda Mahārāja , a little pamphlet. That was very popular. Prabhupāda: So you are not printing now? *Rādhā*-vallabha: No. We have not printed it for many years. We can print it again if you like. Devotee (2): I think the Seventh Canto will be very popular. That can be reprinted. Hari Śauri: There are so many violent stories in the *Bhāgavatam* . Prabhupāda: Ha? Hari Śauri: There are so many descriptions of fighting in the *Bhāgavatam* , and they by far excel anything the mundaners can even conceive of. Like where Jarāsandha gets torn in half, or where his army was defeated and it describes how the bodies were floating like islands . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is killing so many demons from Vṛndāvana. Hari Śauri: Yes. They can't conceive of anything like that at all. It is amazing to them. Prabhupāda: Their idea is God cannot kill anyone. No? Hari Śauri: Hm. If He's God. Prabhupāda: Isn't that the idea? Hari Śauri: Yes. Devotee (2): They have that materialistic conception of goodness. *Rādhā*-vallabha: When we used to distribute the Back to Godhead magazine that had Balarāma killing Pralambāsura on the back cover, the black people would ask why the white person is killing the black one. So it was very difficult to sell that magazine to black people. Prabhupāda: You worship black Kṛṣṇa. Why did you not say? Black is not neglected. We worship, you see our Deity, black Kṛṣṇa. *Rādhā*-vallabha: You are actually the best book distributor. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: You are the best book distributor. You know all the good lines. (pause) *Rādhā*-vallabha: The sign on the front of the Press is ordered now. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: They have ordered the sign for the front of the Press with your name, and we are going to try our best to have it up by the time you get there. Generally it takes one month for them to carve the letters, but we will try to have it up when you get there. Rāmeśvara said he is very, very sorry that when you originally told him about the sign he had already purchased the other letters, and he did not want to displease you by spending more money, and he is very sorry. He has immediately ordered the letters for you. Prabhupāda: That was two years ago he said that it should be taken. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Actually, devotees at the Press, they are . . . it is wonderful how dedicated they are. Whenever a book is coming out, I give an iṣṭagoṣṭhī , and I tell them that Śrīla Prabhupāda is desiring very much to have this book out, and they will do anything. They will stay up all night . . . Prabhupāda: One girl wrote some articles. *Hari Śauri: Hm. In the Back to Godhead . . . it was a one*-page article from that girl who joined. Prabhupāda: She is working still? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. She was . . . I went to Princeton University Press to study some of their methods . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Your name is also. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Unfortunately. And she was there. She was the type composer. Prabhupāda: She is still with us? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Oh, yes. Now she is transcribing Jayadvaita's and Hayagriva's tapes, the editorial tapes. She will work all day and all night also, whenever is necessary. Prabhupāda: She is married or no? *Rādhā*-vallabha: No. Very few devotees get married now. It is very, very rare. Prabhupāda: If one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, this marriage problem does not disturb. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We're too busy to get married. (laughs) No time. Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī . . . man can remain without sex. It is not very difficult for him to. But women? Man can be trained up. He can remain throughout the whole life without sex. But it is a little difficult, unless they are given special protection. Special protection means strictly not to intermingle with any boy. Then they do. That is not possible in the Western . . . otherwise she can remain brahmacāriṇī under the protection of elder brother, or father and mother—not to allow—strict—mix freely to the boys. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In this country if they are left under the protection of their father and mother, then their father and mother will order them to have sex life. Prabhupāda: They make the girl prostitute to bring money. I have got experience. They do not like their young girls to marry. Better find out boys, and bring money. And once woman is trained up to prostitution, she will never become faithful wife. It is impossible. She is spoilt. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In America, if the woman is not like a prostitute, then she is ridiculed. All her friends ridicule her. Most of the degradation actually occurs in schools. When you go to school, the grade school, the elementary school and the high school and then college, this is where you learn all of this sex life, all of the intoxication. This is where you learn it. You learn it from the other children. Actually, that's the source of all the degradation. The meat-eating is taught by the parents, but everything else is school . . . Prabhupāda: Not only the parents. At the school they distribute contraceptive ingredients, tablets. In India it is also a problem. Devotee (2): In movie screens also, cinemas. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): Cinemas. They see all the things going on on the cinema screen. *Rādhā*-vallabha: And the filthy literatures also. Prabhupāda: Literature? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Filthy literatures, everywhere. Devotee (2): Magazines. Hari Śauri: Every newsagent sells pornographic literature. Every newsagent. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In a large city it is not possible to walk down a main street without seeing magazines with naked women—everywhere. That's all they have. *Hari Śauri: Even the advertisements for so*-called respectable goods now, they also feature naked women and so many things. It's just not possible, in the West, to avoid it. Prabhupāda: Not only that, on public streets they are embracing, kissing. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In India you don't even see that at all. It's very nice. Even now. In fact in places like Māyāpura and Vṛndāvana, you won't even see a husband and wife walking together. That's very unusual. Devotee (2): There's not so much emphasis on sex life there. Western society is all sex life. Prabhupāda: Unnatural life. Western society is unnatural. Devotee (2): They're even making surveys that they think that people would work harder if instead of having a lunch break they would have a sex break. So the husband and wife, during lunch hour, they could have sex life and go back to work again. Prabhupāda: Acchā ? Devotee (2): This is public news. I read it in the Time magazine. Hari Śauri: Even in the prisons, they allow the wives of the prisoners to come so that . . . and stay for the weekend at the jails. They were doing that program in England, because the men were complaining, they were becoming agitated, no sex life. They are prisoners, criminals, so they were allowing their wives to come. Prabhupāda: What if he has no wife? Devotee (2): They become homosex also. Prison is very bad. Big problems. *Rādhā*-vallabha: One devotee went to prison, and they had to give him a special place just so he would not be attacked by other men for sex life. This was three years ago. Prabhupāda: Homosex? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. He did not want it, so he did not want to be homosexual, so they had to put him in a place where there were no other men, because practically all of them were like that. They became so insane after sex life. He escaped from prison, though. He jumped over the wall, and for three days went through the mountains with no food, and he escaped, then he went to India. Prabhupāda: He escaped, how? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He jumped over the wall of the prison. Prabhupāda: Acchā . *Rādhā*-vallabha: Kṛṣṇa empowered him. I sent books to the prison chaplain, Kṛṣṇa Books , so the prison chaplain would give them to him, but they came back in the mail. It said: "Cannot deliver. The prisoner has escaped." Prabhupāda: He did some service? *Rādhā*-vallabha: The chaplain? Prabhupāda: No. He distributed some book? Hari Śauri: No, this boy. Devotee: Who was he? He was a devotee? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Vidura. His name was Vidura. I have not heard of him many years. Maybe he left. But he was a . . . Prabhupāda: Vidura, I think he is in Vṛndāvana. Devotee (2): Brahmacārī . *Rādhā*-vallabha: He is thin boy, blond hair? I have not seen him in years. Hari Śauri: He wasn't there when I was there. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari Śauri: He wasn't there when I was there. Prabhupāda: I heard the name. So he has gone to India? *Rādhā*-vallabha: When he first escaped from prison he went to India. This was around two or three years ago. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Then no one heard of him after that. He did not send any letters, to avoid being caught. Prabhupāda: He jumped over the wall? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. He jumped over the wall, then he went through the mountains of Pennsylvania to escape. He had his striped prison suit on. They give 58:53 them a striped suit in the prison. And all the neighboring towns, they tell the people if they see anyone like that, then they will give a big reward. So he was very frightened. He was walking through towns with his striped suit, and people were seeing him. Prabhupāda: Sanatāna Goswāmī did. Hari Śauri: Yes. Devotee (2): He also didn't want to go on the main road. He walked through the jungles. Prabhupāda: He could not jump over. He paid for that. (laughter) What money he had, he paid. But he did all this for Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: In those days it was unique. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Unique? Prabhupāda: How he arranged for getting free from prison. Hari Śauri: It wasn't a very common thing to bribe the jailer? Prabhupāda: Heh? Hari Śauri: It was not a very common thing to bribe the jailer? Prabhupāda: He had money, he bribed. But who has money? *Rādhā*-vallabha: It was from his brother? It was Rūpa Gosvāmī's money? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Rūpa Gosvāmī left one fourth for family expenditures. *Prabhupāda: Fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa, twenty*-five percent for family, and twenty-five percent for personal emergency. Hari Śauri: I remember when I joined the temple, I gave all my money to the temple, and then my parents found out, one friend told them. So they wrote a letter demanding to know why I hadn't sent them the money. *Rādhā*-vallabha: The one fourth. (laughter) Hari Śauri: No, not the one fourth. But they wanted to know why I had given all the money to the temple. They said, "You could have given it to your brother, or," he'd just got married, "or you could have given it to us, or . . ." Like this, very upset. Prabhupāda: When was? Hari Śauri: They are in England. Prabhupāda: Oh. In England, you gave to our temple? Hari Śauri: No. I joined in Sydney, so I gave to the temple in Sydney. Prabhupāda: That's all. (devotees offer obeisances) Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember I . . . we were speaking in India . . . did you want to use the Dictaphone in the afternoon or not? I don't know. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . she still upstairs? *Rādhā*-vallabha: No, Prabhupāda. Pālikā is up there now learning how to cook from her. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Pālikā has gone up there to learn cooking from her, and then she will come back and instruct the cooks in L.A. Devotee (2): She wrote . . . Pālikā wrote one letter saying that she wanted . . . her husband took sannyāsa , isn't it? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Bhavānanda. Devotee (2): She wanted to stay at that farm. She knew it a long time ago. *Rādhā*-vallabha: She is staying at the Press now. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: She works at the Press, Pālikā. Prabhupāda: Pālikā. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. She is transcribing all of the tapes of you lecturing back from 1966, all the way to the present. We are going to have an archive. We want to get every word that you say while you are here. Prabhupāda: So Yamunā's āśrama , how far? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Āśrama ? Devotee (3): From Los Angeles? *Rādhā*-vallabha: A thousand miles maybe. Devotee (3): It's closer to San Francisco—very far. Devotee (2): Perhaps a thousand miles, because Los Angeles is on the southern portion of California, the southern half, and Oregon is . . . remember we went to Portland? Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee (2): It's Portland, and then we went to . . . we drove across to Eugene that one day, you did a program there. Śyāmasundara was driving very fast. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee (2): I was in the car that day, and it's more or less in that area of Eugene, I believe. So it is somewhere in between, around there, that area, Portland. Prabhupāda: Near Portland? Devotee (2): Yes. It's Oregon. Portland is . . . it is a horizontal state. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oregon I remember. So . . . Devotee (2): She mentioned that she would like to come, but because there is only two of them there, and they are taking care of the Deities and they don't have much money, they may not be able to. She would like to come and see you. Prabhupāda: Money—we can send some money. Devotee (2): Hm. But then she was wondering who would take care of the Deities. Prabhupāda: No, we can go there. Devotee (2): (laughs) Prabhupāda: See how they are doing. Devotee (2): (laughing) I don't know if they're . . . I don't know what kind of facilities they will have there, though, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No facilities. (devotees laugh) Just what facility? We are not for facility, we are for service. Devotee (2): I know that. Hari Śauri: At least you'll get some good cooking. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari Śauri: At least you'll get some good cooking. Prabhupāda: Not necessary. Devotee (2): We don't know if there is a road up to the house or anything, really. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): Some farms, you know, they don't have roads up to the houses. We just don't know what the situation is. We have to make some inquiry first. (to devotees) Do you know anything about it? I don't know. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Jayatīrtha was there, I think. Now he is in England. Devotee (2): We can perhaps find out in Los Angeles a little bit more. I can write one letter to Yamunā. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Pālikā will be back. We can find . . . Devotee (2): So I will write and ask them what the situation of their farm is. Hari Śauri: Revatīnandana has been there. Prabhupāda: No man is allowed there, right? Devotee (2): So far I know. They are trying to remain completely free from any men whatsoever. Prabhupāda: That's good. *Rādhā*-vallabha: You know, in Los Angeles, Pālikā and Jadurāṇī have both cut all their hair. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Pālikā and Jadurāṇī have both cut all their hair off. (break) Prabhupāda: That's good. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Ha. Jaya . Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic system. Those who are husbandless, they should not dress attractively to attract the attention of another man. It is very difficult civilization for the Westerner. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Viśākā will be coming here to . . . for photography for BTG. She will be here soon. Devotee (2): It appears, though, that her farm is not growing very much. Prabhupāda: There is no need of growing. Devotee (2): Because there was two of them before, and still two. They are not expanding at all. Hari Śauri: Prabhupāda wrote to them not to expand. Devotee (2): But they haven't expanded at all. Prabhupāda: What is the use of expanding? Devotee (2): No women perhaps want to stay there? I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is tapasya , austerity. But she is maintaining? Devotee (2): Apparently. Prabhupāda: Deity picture is nice. Devotee (2): Yes. Flowers, everything. Prabhupāda: Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa . This is the beginning of spiritual life. Yesterday I have explained one verse, how Lord Rāmacandra comes . . . you have transcribed? *Devotee (2): On the tape? I am not quite there yet. I have only done about a third of it so far. I am on that verse where Kṛṣṇa's, His body is described, I think it's the twelfth or thirteenth verse. Kṛṣṇa's body is described as the universe. He is the oldest, and . . . there was one word, dāt*-te. Prabhupāda: Hm. Datte, datte . Devotee (2): What is that? Because I couldn't pick it up on the tape. Prabhupāda: Datte means "maintaining." Devotee (2): Datte asya ? Prabhupāda: Hm. I am describing . . . there is one verse how the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to teach the human society as Lord Rāmacandra, as Kṛṣṇa, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu. You have come to that? Devotee (2): Not yet. I'll be doing that today, finishing. Prabhupāda: I think one copy of that explanation may be given with the letter of Bajaj. Devotee (2): OK. *Prabhupāda: These rascals are manufacturing. Now they are holding this conference on account of me. Because there are so many rascals, they have interpreted Bhagavad*-gītā in so many ways, but they could not do anything, and here our propaganda is going on all over the world. Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: So they are a little ashamed. (devotees laugh) Devotee (2): Are they genuinely ashamed, or are they . . . Prabhupāda: Genuinely. Because they see, "Who cares for us?" Devotee: Who is this? Devotee (2): There are some men in Bombay, they have a conference, *Gītā* pracar conference. Prabhupāda: That Bajaj is a very rich man, and the son of very important man of Gandhi's contemporary, Vinoba Bhave, and his father, Gandhi, they were working together. His father's name was Jamnalal Bajaj. A very rich man, he joined Gandhi's movement and was financing the movement. So this man is also very big, rich man in Bombay. Very big factory of electrical . . . what is called? Devotee (2): Light bulbs? Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee (2): Light bulbs? Prabhupāda: No, no. Electrical, this fan, plug . . . Devotee (2): Appliances. Prabhupāda: Appliances, yes. Very big factory in India. Table fan, ceiling fan, all kinds of appliances. Stove. They have got very big factory, and he is the proprietor. He is our life member. He came to see me: "Is it not possible to call that? I am ready." The same thing, "I am ready." Devotee (2): Your Divine Grace is already doing . . . why don't they just join our society? Prabhupāda: And they have got this rascal interpretation. Even Gandhi did. That is individuality. Devotee (2): Why do they want to develop a separate society, *Gītā* pracar conference, or their separate work, when they can simply support our work, which is doing it already? Prabhupāda: He is organizing. He is trying to organize. But why not combine? Any moment it can be done, but this rascal will not agree. They stick their own foolishness. It will never be successful. Misinterpreting on the words of Kṛṣṇa, how much offensive it is they do not know it, and they want success. They do not take seriously that it is Kṛṣṇa's instruction. They think that somebody has written a, what is called, allegory. Devotee (2): Mythology? Prabhupāda: Mythology, yes. They do not believe there was battle of Kurukṣetra and Kṛṣṇa instructed . . . Kṛṣṇa is God and . . . they all these things . . . *Rādhā*-vallabha: At the most they will admit that Kṛṣṇa was a great personality. Prabhupāda: That's all. All this Cinmayananda and this Vinoba Bhave and Gandhi and Dr. Radhakrishnan, and all rascals, Aurabindo . . . they have taken it. Devotee (2): The evidence is there in the Vedic scriptures. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): The evidence is there in the Vedic scriptures, but it seems that they have developed this Māyāvādī philosophy, to "the within of Kṛṣṇa," that Radhakrishnan's philosophy. People have come to accept that. *Prabhupāda: Radhakrishnan has accepted, "That is very difficult, to deny Personality of God by reading Bhagavad*-gītā ." Devotee: He wrote that? (laughter) *Rādhā*-vallabha: He tried. Prabhupāda: He tried his best, but it is hardly . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): Rascals. Prabhupāda: One after another. Devotee (2): They didn't at all want to serve the purpose of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Impersonalists. "How God can be person?" They compare with themselves: "But I am a person, what can I do? How can I experience the sky?" They are in perplexity. *Devotee (2): So why do they touch Bhagavad*-gītā then? Prabhupāda: Because it is so authorized and popular. They take the advantage, proving their foolish rascal idea. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Maharishi also did one translation . . . Devotee (2): The first six chapters. *Rādhā*-vallabha: . . . very nonsense. He talks about Bhagavad-gītā as if it were some sort of high school physics course. Prabhupāda: What? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He speaks of Bhagavad-gītā in the terms of physics, energy, so much nonsense. It's impossible to understand it. Prabhupāda: Now they are becoming entrapped. " As It Is ." *Rādhā*-vallabha: By Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: And they accept it. (laughter) And this is becoming very popular; therefore they are perplexed. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Bahulāśva Prabhu goes to the colleges . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Bahulāśva gives lectures in the colleges, and he hands out Gītās to all the students, and during the lecture he says: "So turn to page such-and-such and you will see where it talks about karma ," and then, "Turn to this page . . ." And they are all going through the book, going through the book, and after the class he usually sells about five books, because they are so impressed that someone is so well versed in the Gītā and can explain it so nicely, and they take the book because they have never seen this before. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is . . . (pause and sipping noise, Prabhupāda puts cup down on table) Prabhupāda: Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam ( BG 7.25). *Rādhā*-vallabha: Sometimes the scholar accused that your translation has a Vaiṣṇava slant. (laughter) They say that although the translations are slanted towards the devotional side, still it is a very nice book. Devotee (2): That means they have some preconception already, of . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? *Devotee (2): That means they have some preconception already, what to expect from Bhagavad*-gītā . They have been contaminated. Hari Śauri: The library party was saying that . . . Prabhupāda: Who? Hari Śauri: The library party, one of them was telling me that when they present . . . the scholars, they get the books, and they like the layout and the Sanskrit and everything like that, but they are not so keen on the purports because they can't speculate on anything. It's so clear and direct they've got nothing left to say themselves. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So we cannot allow any speculation. (laughter) Just see the audacity—they are speculating on the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such rascals, and we have to accept them as authority. In Bengal it is called jakamor Jakam . Just like if a small boy speaks authoritatively before his father, superior, it is called jakam . What do you call it in English? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Upstart. Prabhupāda: Upstart, impudent. So all these rascals are jakam . *Rādhā*-vallabha: You describe that in the Third Canto, where Vidura was referred to Maitreya by Uddhava, because Uddhava was afraid to speak; although he was qualified, he didn't want to speak while Maitreya was still present, because Maitreya was older. Devotee (2): It is an offense: moya davyati krama. Moya davyati krama Is that it? Hari Śauri: You say in the purport that you mention that if . . . for one to speak in the presence of a superior, then that's an offense. (child crying) Prabhupāda: Who is this particular child, always crying? Hari Śauri: These children, it's the children from the karmī side that make all the noise. Most of our children are all pretty quiet. Prabhupāda: No, he is . . . Devotee (2): This is a devotee. Hari Śauri: This is one of the devotees, but . . . Prabhupāda: . . . I am speaking of. He is always crying. Devotee (2): They could use a gurukula here, I think. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): They could use a gurukula on this island. Hari Śauri: I think all of those children in the morning, though, they are from the other island. *Rādhā*-vallabha: There are many devotees on the island of Maui. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: There are many devotees on the island of Maui, the next island. They don't live in the temple. They also have many children. (child is still crying) Devotee (2): Rāmeśvara said that Jagadīśa is taking very seriously to expand the gurukula program. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In Los Angeles one of the neighboring ladies, a karmī lady, she was passing by, and all the gurukula children were running around outside, and she said: "Oh, these are the nicest children I have ever seen." (child is still crying) Prabhupāda: This child is a little disturbing. Devotee (2): Yeah, suffering. Prabhupāda: In the temple, no gṛhasthas allowed. (laughter) Devotee (2): Jaya . Prabhupāda: Temple is meant for brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs. Gṛhasthas may be engaged in worshiping, taking care, managing, but families should remain outside. Devotee (2): The problem is most of these women with children, they don't have any husbands—unmarried. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): One woman, she came the other day, she has one child, no husband. She was living here, and she was asked to leave because there was no space. Now she is living in the back of a car with her baby. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): She is living in the back of a car with her baby. She has no blanket even to take care of the child. No husband, just a baby living in the back of a car. Prabhupāda: Here? Devotee (2): Nearby. She's coming each morning to your lectures. Many of these women are unmarried with babies. Prabhupāda: This is the social problem: women without husband. And how scientific it was that the girl, as soon as she is above ten years, the father's responsibility, how to get her married. All my sisters were married from nine to twelve years. And the twelve years old, my second sister, she was belated . . . Devotee (2): Belated? Prabhupāda: It was lately. *Rādhā*-vallabha: She was old. *Prabhupāda: Twelve years. So my mother said to my father that, "This girl is not being married, I shall commit suicide." (devotees laugh) This is, I have seen. She was elder than me by three years, my second sister. So then hastily, somehow or other, she was married to my brother*-in-law as second wife. Second wife . . . the first wife died. Formerly the boys and girls were married earlier. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was married at the seventeen years old. He married for the second time at the age of twenty years. First wife death. So formerly this was the practice. Girl utmost ten to twelve years, and boy sixteen to seventeen or utmost thirty. Devotee (2): As soon as your sisters were married, did they remain in the same house, or did they live with the other family's house? Prabhupāda: Then, because she was twelve years old, so after one year, because generally in Bengal twelve to thirteen years is the age of puberty. My wife gave birth to first child when she was fourteen years. (devotees exclaim) She was married at eleven years old. So anyway, the idea is that it is the father's duty to get the daughter married somehow or other within thirteen years. Devotee (2): Before they reach puberty? Prabhupāda: This is Vedic system. Devotee (2): Very good system. Prabhupāda: Not necessarily the boy should be all well equipped. Simply to see that he is good health and he can work hard. That was all. No education, no money—nothing. Then depends on the fate. "I have given to you a boy who is healthy and he can work hard." Then they are fortunate. This was the system. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They also used astrology, didn't they? *Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. My mother's grandfather was very, very rich man, and his daughter was given to a boy whose family was rich, but they became poor, bankrupt. Practically poverty*-stricken. Ah, that boy. So my mother's grandmother preferred that, "This boy is hard-working and coming from a respectable family; *now they have become poor." So he gave her daughter to him, and later on my mother's grandmother gave him five hundred rupees to start some business. So that is at least 150 years ago, my mother's grandmother. So with that five hundred rupees he started a business, and he flourished in such a way that in Calcutta there is a place, it is called Kshetra. Kshetra, that Kshetra, he purchased the whole Kshetra. Now there are two big roads. One road is Govinda Chandra Auddy Road, that is the husband of my mother's aunt, and another road, Rakhal Chandra Auddy, that is my maternal uncle. So with that five hundred rupees he made a great fortune. And he had no money. It was given secretly by the mother*-in-law, that "You do something with that." Devotee (2): What kind of business did he . . .? *Prabhupāda: His . . . later on he did a, started business, some lace, lace*-making. Not very lucrative, but still. So Indians still believe that that is the . . . (indistinct) . . . the verdict of all Vedic literature, tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ (SB 1.5.18). You cannot create your fortune unless God gives you; *but you can make honest effort, then depend on God. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana (BG 2.47). That is Indian philosophy. Therefore they did not make too much endeavor—easy*-going—but do something; don't be idle. That is the philosophy. So still there is no problem. The boy is married, and he works honestly, and the wife also works honestly as householder. They live peacefully. Not that "I must have this comfort, that comfort." Just like our, that rascal . . . (break) No. All this Western wife means, they call it "White elephant." In India they call it. Devotee (2): You . . .? White women? Prabhupāda: White elephant, to maintain. Because formerly people were . . . boys were coming in the Western countries, sometimes they married European wife, and later on, after going back, they found it is a white elephant. (devotees laugh) Devotee (2): That's great. Prabhupāda: White elephant, I mean, if you cannot maintain properly, then there was divorce. Devotee (2): These women are never satisfied. Prabhupāda: Therefore they found it "White elephant," to maintain an elephant, white in color. (devotees laugh) Hari Śauri: A white elephant is particularly useless? Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari Śauri: A white elephant is more useless than another elephant? Prabhupāda: No, elephant nobody can maintain. It is very difficult to maintain, and he has to be given forty kilograms food daily, and kilo, what is called, forty kilos? Devotee (2): Hundred pounds. Hari Śauri: I was just wondering why white . . . Prabhupāda: You have seen elephant? Devotee (2): Yes, in India. Prabhupāda: Ha. For them such big capātīs are made. (devotee laughs) A whole family's wheat flour will be given, and that is also not sufficient. So many capātīs should be given. Only the kings. Now the princely order is finished, now there is no transaction for elephant, horse. No customers. Formerly there was a market yearly held: horse, elephant, all animals, cows, they were being sold, near Patna. Big. Now since last twenty years it is stopped. Nobody is going to purchase horse and . . . Hari Śauri: That, er, so . . . (break) . . . diminishing, they can't afford to keep them. Prabhupāda: Twenty is maintaining in this age; that is also to his credit, and dowry. Devotee (2): They want to do away with that also. Prabhupāda: And just see, when Kṛṣṇa's mother was married to Vasudeva, dowry: so many hundreds of chariots, so many horses, so many elephants, so many maidservants. Who will be able to keep them? Apart from ornament, jewelry, sārī to the girl, these things were also given, royal, royal family. Then if he can't maintain, then he'll not . . . otherwise what is the glory there, if he maintains only tin car? This is a tin car, canister. As soon as he is stuck up: brr, brr, brr. He has got experience, tin car. Where is elephant? *Rādhā*-vallabha: If the president just takes a little bit of money, they kick him out. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: If the president just takes a little bit of money, they kick him out immediately. Prabhupāda: President? *Rādhā*-vallabha: If the president of the United States . . . Prabhupāda: Ha. Ha. *Rādhā*-vallabha: . . . if he tries to use his position for a little bit of, ah, like a kingly enjoyment, then they just kick him out, because he's not a king. Prabhupāda: All of them are doing that. They are taking so many women. At least that Kennedy was, before. Devotee (2): Yes, that's been exposed. Prabhupāda: And this Nixon was also doing that. They take advantage. Devotee (2): There seems to be no solution, though, because in the Western society there is no protection offered by parents, so these people are coming to become devotees. So what do we do? How can we arrange our society? This is always point of discussion. Prabhupāda: We have to maintain them. They have come to Kṛṣṇa. How can we refuse them? Some arrangement may be made. The government must help. Approach government, that these unprotected girls . . . but they are . . . ha? Devotee (2): That's a very good idea. I don't know if they'll do . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, welfare society, they must pay. How we can maintain? But we cannot refuse them. Are they not getting welfare, money? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Some of them. With children they usually get welfare. Prabhupāda: So that money, they are giving to the society? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Usually they keep it for their apartment and food. It is not so much money; it is just enough for them to maintain. Prabhupāda: So they do not take prasādam in the temple? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Depends on where it is. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Depends on the location. In Los Angeles the householders get food stamps from the government, and they purchase their food like that, and they . . . Devotee (2): They . . . they are not really trained up, though. Pradyumna, he's a little bit sick, so some of the girls, they were wanting to help him, like Kuśa. So they had some food stamps, so they went out and bought the most nonsensical medicines. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): They went out and bought the most nonsensical modern medicines. Clorofil and so many things like this, and the price was $22. They bought with food stamps. Rather they could have bought so many things for offering to the Deities. Even the food stamps can be used, but no management. Prabhupāda: So this is a problem, to maintain these husbandless women. Devotee (2): Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: And also gṛhasthas . Devotee (2): Many of the gṛhasthas at least are doing saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): Many of the gṛhasthas are doing saṅkīrtana , going out and distributing books, preaching. Prabhupāda: They are giving some service. Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: That is wanted, gṛhastha . Just see the foolish law, that there is no sufficient boys to keep wife at least, and they have made laws, one wife. Why one wife? Devotee (2): In this philosophy of democracy there is not supposed to be any discrimination. They would say that this is discrimination against women, because in the Western countries actually the women have this concept that they are just as good as men. They are thinking like that, and the men are thinking also the women are probably just as good. They don't . . . Prabhupāda: Then why are they in difficulty, without husband? Devotee (2): The women argue that the men are also in difficulty. Prabhupāda: But they like that? This neglected position, lying down at the back of the car without any husband, without any provisions, they like it? Devotee (2): These white elephants are very crazy. Prabhupāda: If they like it, then let them be like that. Devotee (2): Western women are . . . they have no training at all. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They say that because they have been trained in the past that they are less intelligent and that they are weaker, therefore it has ruined them in their older age. They have to defeat all this. Devotee (2): They have to prove their independence by living without man's protection. Prabhupāda: They cannot appreciate that? Devotee (2): Man's protection? Not so much any more. There is a whole current of thought with this women's liberation. *Rādhā*-vallabha: There's no protection anyway. Devotee (2): Yes. The men run off anyway. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They are, in one sense, they are right, because the men do not protect them; they exploit them for sex life. So that is one reason why they are becoming successful in this philosophy. Prabhupāda: There is reason, but the man does not marry because there are so many implications. Devotee (2): But by nature's way women like to be protected. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore called svāmī, svāmī . Husband is called svāmī , means protector. (dogs barking) Where are these dogs? Devotee (2): That's outside, next door. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We find that in our society practically none of the brahmacārīs want to get married because they see that the women are not so chaste. Prabhupāda: That is the psychology. That is the psychology. They know that, "The girl whom I am going to marry, she will never be faithful." That is the impression. "So why shall I marry and take charge?" This is the psychology. I know in beginning, 1965, one carpenter boy he was coming to me; he gave me some benches, secondhand. So I asked him, "Why don't you get yourself married?" because I did not know. So he replied, "Swamījī, I know that I'll not get a faithful, chaste wife," he said. Then I could understand the psychology why the boys do not get married. No husband wants an unchaste, unfaithful wife. That is a shock to him. And here you have to allow the wife to go out with her friend. You cannot object. Devotee (2): Wife to go with? Prabhupāda: With her friend. *Rādhā*-vallabha: To go out with her friends; just do whatever she likes. Devotee (2): Oh, in the Western countries. Prabhupāda: I saw that John Lennon. He was maintaining her former husband or friend, the wife's . . . Devotee (2): In the same house. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yoko Ono. Prabhupāda: She already had a friend, and John Lennon wanted her. Devotee (2): So he took him also? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) And he was working as his garden manager. Now that boy has kidnapped the girl. Not the . . . the daughter, and he has went away, and now John has gone after him. Hari Śauri: They've split now, anyway. Prabhupāda: Ha? Hari Śauri: They've split up now, anyway. Devotee (2): He wrote one song, that John Lennon, it was very blasphemous. Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee (2): He wrote one song on a record album. It was called "God is a Symbol," and he mentioned George. He said: "I don't believe in this, I don't believe in that, I don't believe in *Gītā* . What has Kṛṣṇa got on you, George?" Like this. And he went on. At the end he says: "All I believe is in Yoko and me—that's reality." (laughter) Hari Śauri: He put all these things that he don't believe in, "I don't believe in heaven, and I don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, and I don't believe in this, and I don't believe in that. There's just Yoko and me." Prabhupāda: Who cares for you? Hari Śauri: That's what I thought when I read it. I thought, "Well, who cares for him anyway?" All these things are going on. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Another one of them said: "Hare Kṛṣṇa doesn't have anything on me." Prabhupāda: He said? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I think it was Paul that said that. Right? Devotee (2): No. It was John. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Rascal. *Devotee (2): Actually, they are very low*-class people. They came from Liverpool, low class. Hari Śauri: Everyone is low class. Prabhupāda: Everyone low class. What they have got? Simply they got some money and became respected. That's all. Everywhere money is everything. Only on account of, otherwise what qualifications they have got? George, suppose he has got some money, but he has got qualification, he has done something for Kṛṣṇa. He has taken. I asked him first of all $19,000 for paying the bill of Kṛṣṇa, and he paid. You know that? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Oh, yes. In America for a long time when we would distribute the books we would say: "George Harrison paid for this," and immediately they would take it. Prabhupāda: Hm. He actually did pay—$19,000. Hari Śauri: On the strength of that foreword that he put in the inside cover, that must have sold hundreds of thousands of books, just by showing them that. Prabhupāda: Yes. I asked him to write it. And I have acknowledged his money. Devotees: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We show that to people when we distribute the book. We say: "See, here the author is thanking George Harrison for the money. He has paid for it," and they go, "Aha," and they buy the book. Prabhupāda: He is a good boy. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva appeared, did He appear in India? Or was it Indra-loka? Prabhupāda: I told you . . . (indistinct) *Hari Śauri: It describes in the Bhāgavatam that Hiraṇyakaśipu, he was seated in the throne of Indra, in Indra's palace, so then we were wondering, well, did Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva appear on the planet earth or was it in Indra*-loka? Prabhupāda: It was not in this planet, so far I . . . but we are not concerned about the history; we are concerned about the pastime. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Lord Nṛsiṁha is very popular in the West. When people hear about Him . . . because in the West everyone is brought up with so many violent stories, so when they hear the story of Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, they become very attracted. Devotee (2): And everyone's father is a great demon also. Prabhupāda: So why not publish a chapter from *Bhāgavatam* ? I think Seventh Canto is full of Prahlāda's . . . Devotee (2): Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We actually did that. One time we published the Teachings of Prahlāda Mahārāja , a little pamphlet. That was very popular. Prabhupāda: So you are not printing now? *Rādhā*-vallabha: No. We have not printed it for many years. We can print it again if you like. Devotee (2): I think the Seventh Canto will be very popular. That can be reprinted. Hari Śauri: There are so many violent stories in the *Bhāgavatam* . Prabhupāda: Ha? Hari Śauri: There are so many descriptions of fighting in the *Bhāgavatam* , and they by far excel anything the mundaners can even conceive of. Like where Jarāsandha gets torn in half, or where his army was defeated and it describes how the bodies were floating like islands . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is killing so many demons from Vṛndāvana. Hari Śauri: Yes. They can't conceive of anything like that at all. It is amazing to them. Prabhupāda: Their idea is God cannot kill anyone. No? Hari Śauri: Hm. If He's God. Prabhupāda: Isn't that the idea? Hari Śauri: Yes. Devotee (2): They have that materialistic conception of goodness. *Rādhā*-vallabha: When we used to distribute the Back to Godhead magazine that had Balarāma killing Pralambāsura on the back cover, the black people would ask why the white person is killing the black one. So it was very difficult to sell that magazine to black people. Prabhupāda: You worship black Kṛṣṇa. Why did you not say? Black is not neglected. We worship, you see our Deity, black Kṛṣṇa. *Rādhā*-vallabha: You are actually the best book distributor. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: You are the best book distributor. You know all the good lines. (pause) *Rādhā*-vallabha: The sign on the front of the Press is ordered now. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: They have ordered the sign for the front of the Press with your name, and we are going to try our best to have it up by the time you get there. Generally it takes one month for them to carve the letters, but we will try to have it up when you get there. Rāmeśvara said he is very, very sorry that when you originally told him about the sign he had already purchased the other letters, and he did not want to displease you by spending more money, and he is very sorry. He has immediately ordered the letters for you. Prabhupāda: That was two years ago he said that it should be taken. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Actually, devotees at the Press, they are . . . it is wonderful how dedicated they are. Whenever a book is coming out, I give an iṣṭagoṣṭhī , and I tell them that Śrīla Prabhupāda is desiring very much to have this book out, and they will do anything. They will stay up all night . . . Prabhupāda: One girl wrote some articles. *Hari Śauri: Hm. In the Back to Godhead . . . it was a one*-page article from that girl who joined. Prabhupāda: She is working still? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. She was . . . I went to Princeton University Press to study some of their methods . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Your name is also. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Unfortunately. And she was there. She was the type composer. Prabhupāda: She is still with us? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Oh, yes. Now she is transcribing Jayadvaita's and Hayagriva's tapes, the editorial tapes. She will work all day and all night also, whenever is necessary. Prabhupāda: She is married or no? *Rādhā*-vallabha: No. Very few devotees get married now. It is very, very rare. Prabhupāda: If one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, this marriage problem does not disturb. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We're too busy to get married. (laughs) No time. Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī . . . man can remain without sex. It is not very difficult for him to. But women? Man can be trained up. He can remain throughout the whole life without sex. But it is a little difficult, unless they are given special protection. Special protection means strictly not to intermingle with any boy. Then they do. That is not possible in the Western . . . otherwise she can remain brahmacāriṇī under the protection of elder brother, or father and mother—not to allow—strict—mix freely to the boys. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In this country if they are left under the protection of their father and mother, then their father and mother will order them to have sex life. Prabhupāda: They make the girl prostitute to bring money. I have got experience. They do not like their young girls to marry. Better find out boys, and bring money. And once woman is trained up to prostitution, she will never become faithful wife. It is impossible. She is spoilt. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In America, if the woman is not like a prostitute, then she is ridiculed. All her friends ridicule her. Most of the degradation actually occurs in schools. When you go to school, the grade school, the elementary school and the high school and then college, this is where you learn all of this sex life, all of the intoxication. This is where you learn it. You learn it from the other children. Actually, that's the source of all the degradation. The meat-eating is taught by the parents, but everything else is school . . . Prabhupāda: Not only the parents. At the school they distribute contraceptive ingredients, tablets. In India it is also a problem. Devotee (2): In movie screens also, cinemas. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): Cinemas. They see all the things going on on the cinema screen. *Rādhā*-vallabha: And the filthy literatures also. Prabhupāda: Literature? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Filthy literatures, everywhere. Devotee (2): Magazines. Hari Śauri: Every newsagent sells pornographic literature. Every newsagent. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In a large city it is not possible to walk down a main street without seeing magazines with naked women—everywhere. That's all they have. *Hari Śauri: Even the advertisements for so*-called respectable goods now, they also feature naked women and so many things. It's just not possible, in the West, to avoid it. Prabhupāda: Not only that, on public streets they are embracing, kissing. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In India you don't even see that at all. It's very nice. Even now. In fact in places like Māyāpura and Vṛndāvana, you won't even see a husband and wife walking together. That's very unusual. Devotee (2): There's not so much emphasis on sex life there. Western society is all sex life. Prabhupāda: Unnatural life. Western society is unnatural. Devotee (2): They're even making surveys that they think that people would work harder if instead of having a lunch break they would have a sex break. So the husband and wife, during lunch hour, they could have sex life and go back to work again. Prabhupāda: Acchā ? Devotee (2): This is public news. I read it in the Time magazine. Hari Śauri: Even in the prisons, they allow the wives of the prisoners to come so that . . . and stay for the weekend at the jails. They were doing that program in England, because the men were complaining, they were becoming agitated, no sex life. They are prisoners, criminals, so they were allowing their wives to come. Prabhupāda: What if he has no wife? Devotee (2): They become homosex also. Prison is very bad. Big problems. *Rādhā*-vallabha: One devotee went to prison, and they had to give him a special place just so he would not be attacked by other men for sex life. This was three years ago. Prabhupāda: Homosex? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. He did not want it, so he did not want to be homosexual, so they had to put him in a place where there were no other men, because practically all of them were like that. They became so insane after sex life. He escaped from prison, though. He jumped over the wall, and for three days went through the mountains with no food, and he escaped, then he went to India. Prabhupāda: He escaped, how? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He jumped over the wall of the prison. Prabhupāda: Acchā . *Rādhā*-vallabha: Kṛṣṇa empowered him. I sent books to the prison chaplain, Kṛṣṇa Books , so the prison chaplain would give them to him, but they came back in the mail. It said: "Cannot deliver. The prisoner has escaped." Prabhupāda: He did some service? *Rādhā*-vallabha: The chaplain? Prabhupāda: No. He distributed some book? Hari Śauri: No, this boy. Devotee: Who was he? He was a devotee? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Vidura. His name was Vidura. I have not heard of him many years. Maybe he left. But he was a . . . Prabhupāda: Vidura, I think he is in Vṛndāvana. Devotee (2): Brahmacārī . *Rādhā*-vallabha: He is thin boy, blond hair? I have not seen him in years. Hari Śauri: He wasn't there when I was there. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari Śauri: He wasn't there when I was there. Prabhupāda: I heard the name. So he has gone to India? *Rādhā*-vallabha: When he first escaped from prison he went to India. This was around two or three years ago. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Then no one heard of him after that. He did not send any letters, to avoid being caught. Prabhupāda: He jumped over the wall? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. He jumped over the wall, then he went through the mountains of Pennsylvania to escape. He had his striped prison suit on. They give 58:53 them a striped suit in the prison. And all the neighboring towns, they tell the people if they see anyone like that, then they will give a big reward. So he was very frightened. He was walking through towns with his striped suit, and people were seeing him. Prabhupāda: Sanatāna Goswāmī did. Hari Śauri: Yes. Devotee (2): He also didn't want to go on the main road. He walked through the jungles. Prabhupāda: He could not jump over. He paid for that. (laughter) What money he had, he paid. But he did all this for Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: In those days it was unique. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Unique? Prabhupāda: How he arranged for getting free from prison. Hari Śauri: It wasn't a very common thing to bribe the jailer? Prabhupāda: Heh? Hari Śauri: It was not a very common thing to bribe the jailer? Prabhupāda: He had money, he bribed. But who has money? *Rādhā*-vallabha: It was from his brother? It was Rūpa Gosvāmī's money? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Rūpa Gosvāmī left one fourth for family expenditures. *Prabhupāda: Fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa, twenty*-five percent for family, and twenty-five percent for personal emergency. Hari Śauri: I remember when I joined the temple, I gave all my money to the temple, and then my parents found out, one friend told them. So they wrote a letter demanding to know why I hadn't sent them the money. *Rādhā*-vallabha: The one fourth. (laughter) Hari Śauri: No, not the one fourth. But they wanted to know why I had given all the money to the temple. They said, "You could have given it to your brother, or," he'd just got married, "or you could have given it to us, or . . ." Like this, very upset. Prabhupāda: When was? Hari Śauri: They are in England. Prabhupāda: Oh. In England, you gave to our temple? Hari Śauri: No. I joined in Sydney, so I gave to the temple in Sydney. Prabhupāda: That's all. (devotees offer obeisances) Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember I . . . we were speaking in India . . . did you want to use the Dictaphone in the afternoon or not? I don't know. (end) (Conversation About New Vrindavan) Govinda dāsī: . . . oh, as soon as . . . (indistinct) . . . come back. Prabhupāda: Why have you . . . (indistinct) . . .? (long pause) Govinda dāsī: May I put a little flowers around the, erm, you know, the little topknot? I don't know what it's called. The bunch of hairs on the Deities? Prabhupāda: Put flowers there? Govinda dāsī: Yes, put a little flowers there. (long pause) Devotee: (discussion between Govinda dāsī and devotee) What time is Gaurasundara coming? Govinda dāsī: He said tomorrow afternoon, maybe . . . (indistinct) Devotee: But are you going to call him? He could bring me that other typewriter. You need to remind him, or he'll forget. *Prabhupāda: Now already he has admitted. "Yeah, finally my presence in New Vrindavan is more needed now that we are being requested by Your Divine Grace to make an attempt for self*-sufficient." The hint is already given. Devotee: Yes. So he's doubtful. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: He's doubtful that they can do it. I think the next sentence? *Prabhupāda: "We trust in your higher wisdom that self*-sufficient can be realized somehow or other, and we will try for it." Yes, sometimes you can . . . (indistinct) Devotee: He doesn't sound like he is very hopeful. Prabhupāda: Hopeful, then how it can be? Devotee: Someone else should manage, who has enthusiasm. Prabhupāda: It's not possible if they . . . (indistinct) . . . they . . . if they think that they can do some business, let them do it. What can be done? If they cannot produce food, then let them do business. Devotee: Make soap? Make Hare Kṛṣṇa soap? Prabhupāda: Anything can be done. For doing business, there are so many things. Devotee: There is something that can be arranged on that farm. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: There must be some craft or various . . . Prabhupāda: But the whole New Vrindavan idea was that milk and production, something from that, that's all. And that is possible. But they don't work. Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . Devotee: That's the trouble. Prabhupāda: That's the trouble. So you can see it that is why. They think, "Now we have become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, why we shall work?" Devotee: And most of the men who live there, they only stay a short time, and they go away. Then someone else comes, and go away. So there is no one to maintain it. Prabhupāda: They come and eat and go. Devotee: Yes. Vacation. Vacation in the country. Govinda dāsī: We have one married couple here that came from New Vrindavan, but they're not living in the temple—they're living on the big island. But whenever the devotees went to the big island, they wouldn't even feed them, the devotees on the preaching mission. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Govinda dāsī: There was, there was one family of devotees that came from New Vrindavan. They were sort of semi*-hippy, semi-devotee. And . . . and so they got, and they moved to Hawaii—not to this island but to another island in the country. And we sent one party of devotees there for starting a temple, for doing preaching work. And they were just getting started, so they asked: "Can we stay at your house just temporarily?" And they said: "Oh, all right. You can stay there for a few days." But they wouldn't even feed them. They would go into the other room and eat; they would . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? Govinda dāsī: They wouldn't even feed the devotees. It was not very nice. And then the children were performing āratik , and they were saying, "Oh, how cute. How sweet," and everything. But when it came to practical . . . practically helping to start our temple there, there was no help at all. It was . . . it wasn't very helpful. Prabhupāda: (aside) Give me some . . . (indistinct) (end) (Conversation About New Vrindavan) Govinda dāsī: . . . oh, as soon as . . . (indistinct) . . . come back. Prabhupāda: Why have you . . . (indistinct) . . .? (long pause) Govinda dāsī: May I put a little flowers around the, erm, you know, the little topknot? I don't know what it's called. The bunch of hairs on the Deities? Prabhupāda: Put flowers there? Govinda dāsī: Yes, put a little flowers there. (long pause) Devotee: (discussion between Govinda dāsī and devotee) What time is Gaurasundara coming? Govinda dāsī: He said tomorrow afternoon, maybe . . . (indistinct) Devotee: But are you going to call him? He could bring me that other typewriter. You need to remind him, or he'll forget. *Prabhupāda: Now already he has admitted. "Yeah, finally my presence in New Vrindavan is more needed now that we are being requested by Your Divine Grace to make an attempt for self*-sufficient." The hint is already given. Devotee: Yes. So he's doubtful. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: He's doubtful that they can do it. I think the next sentence? *Prabhupāda: "We trust in your higher wisdom that self*-sufficient can be realized somehow or other, and we will try for it." Yes, sometimes you can . . . (indistinct) Devotee: He doesn't sound like he is very hopeful. Prabhupāda: Hopeful, then how it can be? Devotee: Someone else should manage, who has enthusiasm. Prabhupāda: It's not possible if they . . . (indistinct) . . . they . . . if they think that they can do some business, let them do it. What can be done? If they cannot produce food, then let them do business. Devotee: Make soap? Make Hare Kṛṣṇa soap? Prabhupāda: Anything can be done. For doing business, there are so many things. Devotee: There is something that can be arranged on that farm. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: There must be some craft or various . . . Prabhupāda: But the whole New Vrindavan idea was that milk and production, something from that, that's all. And that is possible. But they don't work. Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . Devotee: That's the trouble. Prabhupāda: That's the trouble. So you can see it that is why. They think, "Now we have become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, why we shall work?" Devotee: And most of the men who live there, they only stay a short time, and they go away. Then someone else comes, and go away. So there is no one to maintain it. Prabhupāda: They come and eat and go. Devotee: Yes. Vacation. Vacation in the country. Govinda dāsī: We have one married couple here that came from New Vrindavan, but they're not living in the temple—they're living on the big island. But whenever the devotees went to the big island, they wouldn't even feed them, the devotees on the preaching mission. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Govinda dāsī: There was, there was one family of devotees that came from New Vrindavan. They were sort of semi*-hippy, semi-devotee. And . . . and so they got, and they moved to Hawaii—not to this island but to another island in the country. And we sent one party of devotees there for starting a temple, for doing preaching work. And they were just getting started, so they asked: "Can we stay at your house just temporarily?" And they said: "Oh, all right. You can stay there for a few days." But they wouldn't even feed them. They would go into the other room and eat; they would . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? Govinda dāsī: They wouldn't even feed the devotees. It was not very nice. And then the children were performing āratik , and they were saying, "Oh, how cute. How sweet," and everything. But when it came to practical . . . practically helping to start our temple there, there was no help at all. It was . . . it wasn't very helpful. Prabhupāda: (aside) Give me some . . . (indistinct) (end) (audio very indistinct throughout) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . going to be new form, this human form, you get immediately. Your sacrifice means . . . (indistinct) . . . special place you get immediately. This is the process. So he is not loser. And you have the right to query. *Siddha*-svarūpa: (laughing) The fool who would choose . . . say that, consciously . . . (indistinct) . . . really is not very intelligent. *Prabhupāda: This is the process . . . (indistinct) . . . takes all this risk . . . (indistinct) . . . but the animal*-killing, he is making. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He is not loser. This man who is killing, then he is taking the risk of being killed by the . . . (indistinct) Paramahaṁsa: What if the Christian says that killing plants would also then be prohibited? Prabhupāda: That is not your business. If you are Christian, your business is first to obey the orders of Christ. That is not your business. Paramahaṁsa: You mean if, if . . . well, see, he'll, he'll . . . see, if I say that Jesus says "Don't kill," he doesn't say: "Don't kill humans," he says "Don't kill." And if you're killing the animals for food, then actually you're going against this law because you're killing. But then he'll say . . . Prabhupāda: Does he think that the killing of animals and killing of the plants, the same? He thinks like that? Paramahaṁsa: Uh, no. But he, he might . . . Prabhupāda: That he might, but that on the basis that he thinks like that . . . Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . that killing of a big cow and killing of the plant is the same. Does he think like that? Paramahaṁsa: Uh, he would think like that. Prabhupāda: So that is also another nonsense. Why in your state, when you kill a man, you are hanged, and when you are killing an animal you are not? Why? Why? You are Christian. If you say killing of animal and killing of man is the same, then why you are hanged? Huh? Why you discriminate? Why don't you kill your own child? Why discriminate? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. So they have to learn discrimination. Prabhupāda: Yes. Discrimination is the difference between a man and an animal. You can eat. Nature's law: that one life is food for another. And then you . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the nature's law. And you have to obey the order of the Supreme. That is your business. Now, so far we are concerned, we are not killing anyone, either vegetable or animal. We are offering Kṛṣṇa. So if Kṛṣṇa orders that "Give Me patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ ( BG 9.26)," and by His order I kill . . . this, this is not killing. If I take a fruit, if I take some flower, take some plant, this is not killing. You may accept it that it is killing; then it is Kṛṣṇa's order. I am not ordering. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Just like the commander says to kill; *therefore he kills . . . (indistinct) . . . for duty, and he will, and he . . . (indistinct) . . . to the . . . (indistinct) . . . "Come on, take this medal." But that does not mean that you kill at your whims, and want to get a medal. So he will get the medal by killing in the army, one medal: "Now, give this medal." "No medal. Now you will be hanged. Now you will be hanged, that you wanted by your own." So we have to carry out the order. Now you can kill anyone. That is battle. Even Arjuna. Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa . . . he did not want to kill, but Kṛṣṇa said: "Yes, you must kill." "I shall kill my grandfather?" "Yes!" "I shall kill Droṇācārya, my teacher?" "Yes! You must kill!" That was the whole argument, Bhagavad*-gītā . He understood that. He is Vaisnava . . . (indistinct) . . . he did not like. But Kṛṣṇa: "Must kill! Must kill!" So we have to carry out Kṛṣṇa's order. Even if you think that these vegetables are being killed, it is not killing. If I take the fruit from the . . . (indistinct) . . . but for argument's sake, if you say it is being killed, but that is not our responsibility; *it is Kṛṣṇa's responsibility. And so far Kṛṣṇa is concerned, in the Vedas , akarma . . . (indistinct) . . . He is never contaminated by any sinful reaction. Even superficially he is not. Literally killing his own countrymen . . . (indistinct) . . . does it mean that he is committing sin? To kill one's kinsmen, relative, father, like that, there is sin. And he is killing another, and another, father, son. So you have to abide by the order. That is your duty. Kṛṣṇa says that to kill a cow and to kill a human being is the same sin . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa could have killed so many cows—they are tending cows, daily in . . . (indistinct) . . . He said go*-rakṣya. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ (BG 18.44). And He actually protected . . . (indistinct) . . . so you have to follow Kṛṣṇa's order, stay in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We shall give protection to the cows, and we shall prepare foodstuff for Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . and we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam . In that consciousness . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness society. We do not do anything which is not ordered. Always do everything by His permission. This is our . . . Kṛṣṇa ordered that bring the cow's . . . (indistinct) . . . we are taking . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is your religion? Your religion, that "Thou shall not kill." As we follow Kṛṣṇa's order, you should follow Christ. Then you are Christian. Paramahaṁsa: There's . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: There's no possibility of people's understanding Jesus. Simply a matter . . . because there's no, there is . . . Prabhupāda: They have no knowledge. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . we have no difficulty. All rascals. Like these horses, wild; and intoxication and illicit sex . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot understand. Therefore the only process is that let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam . Then gradually they will be cured. Then . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all business, when they sing and dance, when he sings this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and diet, encourage them, and they will . . . (indistinct) . . . just like fire was spreading, . . . (indistinct) . . . they understand what is to be done. Paramahaṁsa: Did Yogi Bhajan write you back? Did he respond to your letter to them? Not yet? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Can I be excused? I've . . . I have a . . . I caught an influenza . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . so I have a slight fever. I will try to break it. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (audio very indistinct throughout) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . going to be new form, this human form, you get immediately. Your sacrifice means . . . (indistinct) . . . special place you get immediately. This is the process. So he is not loser. And you have the right to query. *Siddha*-svarūpa: (laughing) The fool who would choose . . . say that, consciously . . . (indistinct) . . . really is not very intelligent. *Prabhupāda: This is the process . . . (indistinct) . . . takes all this risk . . . (indistinct) . . . but the animal*-killing, he is making. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He is not loser. This man who is killing, then he is taking the risk of being killed by the . . . (indistinct) Paramahaṁsa: What if the Christian says that killing plants would also then be prohibited? Prabhupāda: That is not your business. If you are Christian, your business is first to obey the orders of Christ. That is not your business. Paramahaṁsa: You mean if, if . . . well, see, he'll, he'll . . . see, if I say that Jesus says "Don't kill," he doesn't say: "Don't kill humans," he says "Don't kill." And if you're killing the animals for food, then actually you're going against this law because you're killing. But then he'll say . . . Prabhupāda: Does he think that the killing of animals and killing of the plants, the same? He thinks like that? Paramahaṁsa: Uh, no. But he, he might . . . Prabhupāda: That he might, but that on the basis that he thinks like that . . . Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . that killing of a big cow and killing of the plant is the same. Does he think like that? Paramahaṁsa: Uh, he would think like that. Prabhupāda: So that is also another nonsense. Why in your state, when you kill a man, you are hanged, and when you are killing an animal you are not? Why? Why? You are Christian. If you say killing of animal and killing of man is the same, then why you are hanged? Huh? Why you discriminate? Why don't you kill your own child? Why discriminate? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. So they have to learn discrimination. Prabhupāda: Yes. Discrimination is the difference between a man and an animal. You can eat. Nature's law: that one life is food for another. And then you . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the nature's law. And you have to obey the order of the Supreme. That is your business. Now, so far we are concerned, we are not killing anyone, either vegetable or animal. We are offering Kṛṣṇa. So if Kṛṣṇa orders that "Give Me patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ ( BG 9.26)," and by His order I kill . . . this, this is not killing. If I take a fruit, if I take some flower, take some plant, this is not killing. You may accept it that it is killing; then it is Kṛṣṇa's order. I am not ordering. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Just like the commander says to kill; *therefore he kills . . . (indistinct) . . . for duty, and he will, and he . . . (indistinct) . . . to the . . . (indistinct) . . . "Come on, take this medal." But that does not mean that you kill at your whims, and want to get a medal. So he will get the medal by killing in the army, one medal: "Now, give this medal." "No medal. Now you will be hanged. Now you will be hanged, that you wanted by your own." So we have to carry out the order. Now you can kill anyone. That is battle. Even Arjuna. Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa . . . he did not want to kill, but Kṛṣṇa said: "Yes, you must kill." "I shall kill my grandfather?" "Yes!" "I shall kill Droṇācārya, my teacher?" "Yes! You must kill!" That was the whole argument, Bhagavad*-gītā . He understood that. He is Vaisnava . . . (indistinct) . . . he did not like. But Kṛṣṇa: "Must kill! Must kill!" So we have to carry out Kṛṣṇa's order. Even if you think that these vegetables are being killed, it is not killing. If I take the fruit from the . . . (indistinct) . . . but for argument's sake, if you say it is being killed, but that is not our responsibility; *it is Kṛṣṇa's responsibility. And so far Kṛṣṇa is concerned, in the Vedas , akarma . . . (indistinct) . . . He is never contaminated by any sinful reaction. Even superficially he is not. Literally killing his own countrymen . . . (indistinct) . . . does it mean that he is committing sin? To kill one's kinsmen, relative, father, like that, there is sin. And he is killing another, and another, father, son. So you have to abide by the order. That is your duty. Kṛṣṇa says that to kill a cow and to kill a human being is the same sin . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa could have killed so many cows—they are tending cows, daily in . . . (indistinct) . . . He said go*-rakṣya. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ (BG 18.44). And He actually protected . . . (indistinct) . . . so you have to follow Kṛṣṇa's order, stay in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We shall give protection to the cows, and we shall prepare foodstuff for Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . and we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam . In that consciousness . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness society. We do not do anything which is not ordered. Always do everything by His permission. This is our . . . Kṛṣṇa ordered that bring the cow's . . . (indistinct) . . . we are taking . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is your religion? Your religion, that "Thou shall not kill." As we follow Kṛṣṇa's order, you should follow Christ. Then you are Christian. Paramahaṁsa: There's . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: There's no possibility of people's understanding Jesus. Simply a matter . . . because there's no, there is . . . Prabhupāda: They have no knowledge. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . we have no difficulty. All rascals. Like these horses, wild; and intoxication and illicit sex . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot understand. Therefore the only process is that let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam . Then gradually they will be cured. Then . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all business, when they sing and dance, when he sings this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and diet, encourage them, and they will . . . (indistinct) . . . just like fire was spreading, . . . (indistinct) . . . they understand what is to be done. Paramahaṁsa: Did Yogi Bhajan write you back? Did he respond to your letter to them? Not yet? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Can I be excused? I've . . . I have a . . . I caught an influenza . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . so I have a slight fever. I will try to break it. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (audio quality very poor throughout) *Prabhupāda: . . . at any moment . . . (indistinct) . . . and what is the program to get out of it? . . . (indistinct) . . . why you are proud of your so*-called rascaldom? . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your insurance to save yourself from the . . . (indistinct) . . .? Woman devotee (1): My insurance? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only insurance is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati ( BG 9.31) . . . (indistinct) . . . that is your only insurance. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . simply by chanting . . . (indistinct) . . . insurance to save you. Devotee (2): "He quickly becomes righteous and attains lasting peace. O son of Kuntī, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes." Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Devotee (2): Purport. "This should not be misunderstood. In the Seventh Chapter the Lord says that one who is engaged in mischievous activities cannot become a devotee of the Lord. One who is not a devotee of the Lord has no good qualifications whatsoever. The question remains, then, How can a person engaged in abominable activities—either by accident or intention—be a pure devotee? This question may be justly raised. The miscreants, are stated in the Seventh Chapter, who never come to the devotional service of the Lord, have no good qualifications, as it is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Generally, a devotee who is engaged in the nine kinds of devotional activities is engaged in the process of cleansing all material contamination from the heart. He puts the Supreme Personality of Godhead within his heart, and all sinful contaminations are naturally washed away. Continuous thinking of the Supreme Lord makes him pure by nature. According to the Vedas , there is a certain regulation that if one falls down from his exalted position he has to undergo certain ritualistic processes to purify himself. But there is no such condition, because the purifying process is already there in the heart of the devotee, due to his remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly. Therefore, the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare should be continued without stoppage. This will protect a devotee from all accidental falldowns. He will thus remain perpetually free from all material contaminations." Prabhupāda: It is the only process to save yourself. Devotee (3): You . . . you told a story once about, there was one . . . the devotee of Lord Caitanya, where he had never met Lord Caitanya, but he had some water sprinkled on him from a Muslim, Muhammadan, and that . . . that astrologer told him to pour . . . to drink lead, hot lead. And he said . . . I was . . . Prabhupāda: Buddhimanta Khān. Devotee (3): Yeah, Buddhimanta Khān. (pause) Devotee (3): You've also said in the past that there is no reality of this material world save for . . . save Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , save . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, nāma vinā kichu nāhika āra, cauddha*-bhuvana-majhe . (pause) Devotee (3): Kṛṣṇa is our only insurance, and you are the . . . you are the insurance representative. *Prabhupāda: People are so intelligent that when the representative of Kṛṣṇa speaks, they become enemies, and sometimes they crucify, kill. So people are so kind that they are not killing. Otherwise, why Christ, . . . (indistinct) . . . was killed? What fault? What is his fault? Just see. Was there any fault in his words? He advised, "Don't kill," and he was crucified. We have to deal with such rascals. I may be representative, but he is directly son of God. People are so rascal that they did not believe even the son of God, what to speak of His representative. What is that? Why Jesus Christ was killed? What was his fault? People are so . . . (indistinct) . . . what the Christians will ask? Therefore we are . . . (indistinct) . . . and not only that, they have been given this idea that, "For our sinful reaction Christ has taken contract, so let him suffer being killed." Cow*-killing is very, very sin. "That's all right; don't mind. Christ will suffer." How easy understanding they have. Devotee (2): They . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): They call it love. Prabhupāda: This is love? If you say: "Prabhupāda, I love you. Now I want to kill you. Now I will kill you." Please don't love me! (laughter) Please get out. "I love you so much that I will kill you." Devotee (2): They like to keep the . . . Christ, the deity of Christ, they keep him nailed on the cross. They think that's very . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore you see all the pictures in the church, he is carrying the cross, and he is pushing, pushed by the government men. How miserable condition they show. Devotee (2): They don't have any . . . Prabhupāda: They do not have picture, just like we show Kṛṣṇa is enjoying. Such rotten things. That is going on in religion. They love . . . they love means they want to see their lovable suffering so much, you see. Only then . . . (indistinct) . . . this, we want to see our lovable object that He is enjoying. Young boy . . . (indistinct) . . . gopīs, and nice night, playing flute, He's enjoying. That we want to see. And they want to see that lovable, he is suffering. How they can see it, if there is love? *Siddha*-svarūpa: If they loved him they would not be able to stand to look at that. Prabhupāda: That is going on in the name of religion. Therefore so many rogues, rascals. Rascals. We say clearly . . . (indistinct) . . . simply rogues. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That is the symptom there. If they loved him, they would not be able to see that and glorify that. *Prabhupāda: That there was something . . . (indistinct) . . . one picture . . . (indistinct) . . . there was a competition that painter has to paint a picture that there is . . . (indistinct) . . . of the mother with child, so what would be the facial expression. So the painter has to express the feelings . . . (indistinct) . . . that one painter, he painted a picture of the mother, intimate picture . . . (indistinct) . . . he got it. So that is real idea. You may paint . . . (indistinct) . . . expression, that is artificial. The real thing, the mother cannot see it. That mother, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . it is correct. So how the mother can see it? There is . . . (indistinct) . . . being killed. So it is not very easy to . . . (indistinct) . . . cover the mouth, there is no question of him painting so many rascal expressions. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . all going on in the name of religion. All rascals. All rascal. Simply. They do not know what is God, they do not know . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the meaning of love. Simply rubber*-stamp, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." They are interested only in sense gratification. There cannot be any religion. So this cheating type of religion is rejected. Dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavaḥ (SB 1.1.2). All cheating type of religion is kicked out. This is no religion at all. All bogus. Is that religion, disobeying the instruction of Christ, "Thou shall not kill"? "Therefore I shall kill him." Is that religion? And they are showing how he was killed. *Siddha*-svarūpa: One . . . one man once said that to carry . . . to glorify the cross is like they . . . glorifying the revolver. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: If the husband is shot, then you take the gun and you worship the gun. Prabhupāda: That is . . . yes. Very good example. Are you, are you going to some church . . . (indistinct) . . .? Woman: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So, the same picture, that Jesus Christ is carrying his cross, and falling, falling. And you go enjoy. (long pause) *Prabhupāda: In Māyāpur you have seen Yoga*-pīṭha, Caitanya Mahāprabhu birthplace? Yoga-pīṭha? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . Devotee (2): Oh. Prabhupāda: . . . and two sides, his two wives. Not that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is worshiped as a sannyāsī . Devotee (2): Gṛhastha . Prabhupāda: Gṛhastha. Gṛhastha with two wives, he must enjoy. This is our process. Why you will see Him as a sannyāsī ? Therefore Nityānanda Prabhu broke his daṇḍa . They want . . . do not want to see Him as sannyāsī , . . . (indistinct) . . . renounce. Why He should be renounced? He is gṛhastha . "Oh, well." God must enjoy . . . (break) Devotee (5): I'm sorry it took so long, but I had a little trouble getting through to them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (5): First their . . . first the telephone service were not free, and then their line was busy for some time. So I just got through to them a few minutes ago, and he says it wasn't printed by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Prabhupāda: Then? Devotee (5): He said they did it independently, unauthorized from Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, and he already chastised them for using the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust label, 'cause it has nothing to do with the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Prabhupāda: Who is he? Devotee (5): Uhhh, I'm not sure. Who sent it? Bahulāśva? That devotee named Bahulāśva? Devotee (6): Bahulāśva and Bhakti dāsa. Devotee (5): And who else? Devotee (6): Jayānanda. But Jayānanda . . . I saw this printed in L.A. before I came here. Devotee (5): Oh. Devotee (6): So I don't think it's a San Francisco endeavor. Devotee (7): The separations were all . . . Devotee (5): No, he said it was done there. Devotee (6): Oh, in San Francisco? Devotee (5): Yeah, they printed it while the festival was going on in India, and he didn't know anything about it until he came back and saw that it was all printed. He said they were going to use it for some . . . something to do with lectures. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (5): They were going to use it to introduce lectures and so forth. Prabhupāda: So it was not published, so why did he publish unauthorized? Devotee (5): Oh, I don't know. He said that he was a little upset about it himself. Prabhupāda: So this should not take place again. They should be informed that without being passed by the authority, nobody should publish any literature. This is already . . . (indistinct) Devotee (5): Without, without being passed by the authorities . . .? Prabhupāda: Should not be published. Devotee (5): Does that mean the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust trustees? Prabhupāda: Yes. So those who are managing, but why they are . . . (indistinct) . . .? Where does he live? Devotee (3): I . . . we're still not sure who published it. Uh, Bahulāśva or Dharmādhyakṣa? Has anybody . . . did you mention that? Devotee (5): Rameśvara told me that they are the ones who did it, from the San Francisco center. Bahulāśva he mentioned, and a Dharmādhyakṣa. Devotee (3): Hmm. Hmm. He's in LA. Devotee (5): He mentioned those two. He didn't mention the others. He said they were . . . Prabhupāda: Bahulāśva published, published? Devotee (5): He said Bahulāśva and Dharmādhyakṣa. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (5): Dharmādhyakṣa. I don't know who he is. Devotee (3): It's the colleges. Devotee (5): Oh. They're, I think, in charge of the college program. Prabhupāda: The idea is good, but . . . (indistinct) . . . impersonal. Devotee (5): Hmm. Prabhupāda: Impersonal is not good. Devotee (5): So if someone was to receive this, they wouldn't necessarily connect it with you at all. They could think it was anything, 'cause there's no mention of your name. Prabhupāda: Who published it? Devotee (5): Uhh, I don't know who printed it. Prabhupāda: That you did not ask? Devotee (5): Rameśvara didn't know anything about who printed it or how many copies were printed or anything. He said all he knew was that it was put together by Bahulāśva and Dharmādhyakṣa. Prabhupāda: So ask them. Devotee (5): I have to contact them and find out how it was actually . . . should I write them a letter? Prabhupāda: He just sent one letter. You, you write. Devotee (5): This letter? (pause) Prabhupāda: So he, he is informed you are going? Devotee (5): Rameśvara? Oh, yeah. They're waiting. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) Devotee (5): Well, they sent the tickets today, but we have not made the reservation yet. We were waiting for them to . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . that place was selected . . . Devotee (5): Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . for . . . (indistinct) Devotee (7): Do you want to establish one center there? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee (7): Yeah, I would like to help. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (7): I would like to help. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Devotee (7): . . . (indistinct)? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Especially when there is . . . Devotee (7): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: This Ratha*-yātrā is in memory of Kṛṣṇa's coming there with His brother and sister during one eclipse, to take bath, coming from Dvārakā. Devotee (7): And the gopīs also assembled there? *Prabhupāda: The gopīs got the information that Kṛṣṇa is coming from Dvārakā, so from Vṛndāvana they went to see Him. And when Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī met, the Rādhārāṇī lamented that Kṛṣṇa—He was the same Kṛṣṇa and the same Rādhārāṇī—so "This is not a good meeting place. So if You come to Vṛndāvana, then I shall be happy." So it is inviting Kṛṣṇa to Vṛndāvana. That is the feeling of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Ratha*-yātrā. He is inviting Kṛṣṇa to Vṛndāvana. So in Jagannātha Purī still the same feelings are there. Kṛṣṇa, Jagannātha, from the temple goes to Guṇḍicā. So Lakṣmī is angry that, "Kṛṣṇa is leaving me. He has gone to Vṛndāvana." So she was . . . she is punishing. That is called Herā-pañcamī, punishing the servants of Kṛṣṇa. The maidservants of Lakṣmī chastising them, threatened them, "Why without permission?" (laughs) So they, out of very fearful condition, offering their respect to Lakṣmī, "Mother, you don't be sorry. I am here . . . (indistinct) . . ." So this, this is the play performed, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu associates they saw, and they enjoyed very much when the maidservant of Lakṣmī was slapping the servant of Viṣṇu. That is mentioned Caitanya-caritāmṛta . All the servants arrested, brought before Lakṣmī, and they are punished. (laughs) But they came to invite Kṛṣṇa, Rādhārāṇī and other gopīs. And actually they do not go at that time. But this Ratha-yātrā ceremony means Kṛṣṇa is coming from Dvārakā to Kurukṣetra. This is the history of Ratha-yātrā. Devotee (5): Do they have any temples of Lord Jagannātha there? They have any temples of Lord Jagannātha in Kurukṣetra? Prabhupāda: No. Jagannātha, that is another history. King Indradyumna, he wanted to establish a temple of that incidence, and that the deities while being carved would remain unfinished. So he was very impatient to establish, so he established the unfinished Deity. That is Jagannātha. Devotee (7): The nondevotees cannot understand . . . Prabhupāda: They are being carved, Kṛṣṇa's wood form, but he was so impatient, he said, "Whatever is done now, establish." It is said that Viśvakarmā was enquiring. So the term was, Viśvakarmā said that "Unless I finish, don't open the door." So this king, he went impatiently, and calling out whether he is finished. Then he forced . . . forcibly opened the door, and it was unfinished. So he said, "Never mind, . . . (indistinct) . . ." Unfinished Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . so Kṛṣṇa, finished or unfinished, is Kṛṣṇa. That is omnipotency. That is Jagannātha form . . . (indistinct) . . . doesn't matter finished or unfinished. (end) (audio quality very poor throughout) *Prabhupāda: . . . at any moment . . . (indistinct) . . . and what is the program to get out of it? . . . (indistinct) . . . why you are proud of your so*-called rascaldom? . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your insurance to save yourself from the . . . (indistinct) . . .? Woman devotee (1): My insurance? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only insurance is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati ( BG 9.31) . . . (indistinct) . . . that is your only insurance. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . simply by chanting . . . (indistinct) . . . insurance to save you. Devotee (2): "He quickly becomes righteous and attains lasting peace. O son of Kuntī, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes." Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Devotee (2): Purport. "This should not be misunderstood. In the Seventh Chapter the Lord says that one who is engaged in mischievous activities cannot become a devotee of the Lord. One who is not a devotee of the Lord has no good qualifications whatsoever. The question remains, then, How can a person engaged in abominable activities—either by accident or intention—be a pure devotee? This question may be justly raised. The miscreants, are stated in the Seventh Chapter, who never come to the devotional service of the Lord, have no good qualifications, as it is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Generally, a devotee who is engaged in the nine kinds of devotional activities is engaged in the process of cleansing all material contamination from the heart. He puts the Supreme Personality of Godhead within his heart, and all sinful contaminations are naturally washed away. Continuous thinking of the Supreme Lord makes him pure by nature. According to the Vedas , there is a certain regulation that if one falls down from his exalted position he has to undergo certain ritualistic processes to purify himself. But there is no such condition, because the purifying process is already there in the heart of the devotee, due to his remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly. Therefore, the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare should be continued without stoppage. This will protect a devotee from all accidental falldowns. He will thus remain perpetually free from all material contaminations." Prabhupāda: It is the only process to save yourself. Devotee (3): You . . . you told a story once about, there was one . . . the devotee of Lord Caitanya, where he had never met Lord Caitanya, but he had some water sprinkled on him from a Muslim, Muhammadan, and that . . . that astrologer told him to pour . . . to drink lead, hot lead. And he said . . . I was . . . Prabhupāda: Buddhimanta Khān. Devotee (3): Yeah, Buddhimanta Khān. (pause) Devotee (3): You've also said in the past that there is no reality of this material world save for . . . save Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , save . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, nāma vinā kichu nāhika āra, cauddha*-bhuvana-majhe . (pause) Devotee (3): Kṛṣṇa is our only insurance, and you are the . . . you are the insurance representative. *Prabhupāda: People are so intelligent that when the representative of Kṛṣṇa speaks, they become enemies, and sometimes they crucify, kill. So people are so kind that they are not killing. Otherwise, why Christ, . . . (indistinct) . . . was killed? What fault? What is his fault? Just see. Was there any fault in his words? He advised, "Don't kill," and he was crucified. We have to deal with such rascals. I may be representative, but he is directly son of God. People are so rascal that they did not believe even the son of God, what to speak of His representative. What is that? Why Jesus Christ was killed? What was his fault? People are so . . . (indistinct) . . . what the Christians will ask? Therefore we are . . . (indistinct) . . . and not only that, they have been given this idea that, "For our sinful reaction Christ has taken contract, so let him suffer being killed." Cow*-killing is very, very sin. "That's all right; don't mind. Christ will suffer." How easy understanding they have. Devotee (2): They . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): They call it love. Prabhupāda: This is love? If you say: "Prabhupāda, I love you. Now I want to kill you. Now I will kill you." Please don't love me! (laughter) Please get out. "I love you so much that I will kill you." Devotee (2): They like to keep the . . . Christ, the deity of Christ, they keep him nailed on the cross. They think that's very . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore you see all the pictures in the church, he is carrying the cross, and he is pushing, pushed by the government men. How miserable condition they show. Devotee (2): They don't have any . . . Prabhupāda: They do not have picture, just like we show Kṛṣṇa is enjoying. Such rotten things. That is going on in religion. They love . . . they love means they want to see their lovable suffering so much, you see. Only then . . . (indistinct) . . . this, we want to see our lovable object that He is enjoying. Young boy . . . (indistinct) . . . gopīs, and nice night, playing flute, He's enjoying. That we want to see. And they want to see that lovable, he is suffering. How they can see it, if there is love? *Siddha*-svarūpa: If they loved him they would not be able to stand to look at that. Prabhupāda: That is going on in the name of religion. Therefore so many rogues, rascals. Rascals. We say clearly . . . (indistinct) . . . simply rogues. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That is the symptom there. If they loved him, they would not be able to see that and glorify that. *Prabhupāda: That there was something . . . (indistinct) . . . one picture . . . (indistinct) . . . there was a competition that painter has to paint a picture that there is . . . (indistinct) . . . of the mother with child, so what would be the facial expression. So the painter has to express the feelings . . . (indistinct) . . . that one painter, he painted a picture of the mother, intimate picture . . . (indistinct) . . . he got it. So that is real idea. You may paint . . . (indistinct) . . . expression, that is artificial. The real thing, the mother cannot see it. That mother, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . it is correct. So how the mother can see it? There is . . . (indistinct) . . . being killed. So it is not very easy to . . . (indistinct) . . . cover the mouth, there is no question of him painting so many rascal expressions. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . all going on in the name of religion. All rascals. All rascal. Simply. They do not know what is God, they do not know . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the meaning of love. Simply rubber*-stamp, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." They are interested only in sense gratification. There cannot be any religion. So this cheating type of religion is rejected. Dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavaḥ (SB 1.1.2). All cheating type of religion is kicked out. This is no religion at all. All bogus. Is that religion, disobeying the instruction of Christ, "Thou shall not kill"? "Therefore I shall kill him." Is that religion? And they are showing how he was killed. *Siddha*-svarūpa: One . . . one man once said that to carry . . . to glorify the cross is like they . . . glorifying the revolver. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: If the husband is shot, then you take the gun and you worship the gun. Prabhupāda: That is . . . yes. Very good example. Are you, are you going to some church . . . (indistinct) . . .? Woman: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So, the same picture, that Jesus Christ is carrying his cross, and falling, falling. And you go enjoy. (long pause) *Prabhupāda: In Māyāpur you have seen Yoga*-pīṭha, Caitanya Mahāprabhu birthplace? Yoga-pīṭha? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . Devotee (2): Oh. Prabhupāda: . . . and two sides, his two wives. Not that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is worshiped as a sannyāsī . Devotee (2): Gṛhastha . Prabhupāda: Gṛhastha. Gṛhastha with two wives, he must enjoy. This is our process. Why you will see Him as a sannyāsī ? Therefore Nityānanda Prabhu broke his daṇḍa . They want . . . do not want to see Him as sannyāsī , . . . (indistinct) . . . renounce. Why He should be renounced? He is gṛhastha . "Oh, well." God must enjoy . . . (break) Devotee (5): I'm sorry it took so long, but I had a little trouble getting through to them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (5): First their . . . first the telephone service were not free, and then their line was busy for some time. So I just got through to them a few minutes ago, and he says it wasn't printed by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Prabhupāda: Then? Devotee (5): He said they did it independently, unauthorized from Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, and he already chastised them for using the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust label, 'cause it has nothing to do with the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Prabhupāda: Who is he? Devotee (5): Uhhh, I'm not sure. Who sent it? Bahulāśva? That devotee named Bahulāśva? Devotee (6): Bahulāśva and Bhakti dāsa. Devotee (5): And who else? Devotee (6): Jayānanda. But Jayānanda . . . I saw this printed in L.A. before I came here. Devotee (5): Oh. Devotee (6): So I don't think it's a San Francisco endeavor. Devotee (7): The separations were all . . . Devotee (5): No, he said it was done there. Devotee (6): Oh, in San Francisco? Devotee (5): Yeah, they printed it while the festival was going on in India, and he didn't know anything about it until he came back and saw that it was all printed. He said they were going to use it for some . . . something to do with lectures. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (5): They were going to use it to introduce lectures and so forth. Prabhupāda: So it was not published, so why did he publish unauthorized? Devotee (5): Oh, I don't know. He said that he was a little upset about it himself. Prabhupāda: So this should not take place again. They should be informed that without being passed by the authority, nobody should publish any literature. This is already . . . (indistinct) Devotee (5): Without, without being passed by the authorities . . .? Prabhupāda: Should not be published. Devotee (5): Does that mean the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust trustees? Prabhupāda: Yes. So those who are managing, but why they are . . . (indistinct) . . .? Where does he live? Devotee (3): I . . . we're still not sure who published it. Uh, Bahulāśva or Dharmādhyakṣa? Has anybody . . . did you mention that? Devotee (5): Rameśvara told me that they are the ones who did it, from the San Francisco center. Bahulāśva he mentioned, and a Dharmādhyakṣa. Devotee (3): Hmm. Hmm. He's in LA. Devotee (5): He mentioned those two. He didn't mention the others. He said they were . . . Prabhupāda: Bahulāśva published, published? Devotee (5): He said Bahulāśva and Dharmādhyakṣa. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (5): Dharmādhyakṣa. I don't know who he is. Devotee (3): It's the colleges. Devotee (5): Oh. They're, I think, in charge of the college program. Prabhupāda: The idea is good, but . . . (indistinct) . . . impersonal. Devotee (5): Hmm. Prabhupāda: Impersonal is not good. Devotee (5): So if someone was to receive this, they wouldn't necessarily connect it with you at all. They could think it was anything, 'cause there's no mention of your name. Prabhupāda: Who published it? Devotee (5): Uhh, I don't know who printed it. Prabhupāda: That you did not ask? Devotee (5): Rameśvara didn't know anything about who printed it or how many copies were printed or anything. He said all he knew was that it was put together by Bahulāśva and Dharmādhyakṣa. Prabhupāda: So ask them. Devotee (5): I have to contact them and find out how it was actually . . . should I write them a letter? Prabhupāda: He just sent one letter. You, you write. Devotee (5): This letter? (pause) Prabhupāda: So he, he is informed you are going? Devotee (5): Rameśvara? Oh, yeah. They're waiting. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) Devotee (5): Well, they sent the tickets today, but we have not made the reservation yet. We were waiting for them to . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . that place was selected . . . Devotee (5): Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . for . . . (indistinct) Devotee (7): Do you want to establish one center there? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee (7): Yeah, I would like to help. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (7): I would like to help. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Devotee (7): . . . (indistinct)? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Especially when there is . . . Devotee (7): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: This Ratha*-yātrā is in memory of Kṛṣṇa's coming there with His brother and sister during one eclipse, to take bath, coming from Dvārakā. Devotee (7): And the gopīs also assembled there? *Prabhupāda: The gopīs got the information that Kṛṣṇa is coming from Dvārakā, so from Vṛndāvana they went to see Him. And when Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī met, the Rādhārāṇī lamented that Kṛṣṇa—He was the same Kṛṣṇa and the same Rādhārāṇī—so "This is not a good meeting place. So if You come to Vṛndāvana, then I shall be happy." So it is inviting Kṛṣṇa to Vṛndāvana. That is the feeling of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Ratha*-yātrā. He is inviting Kṛṣṇa to Vṛndāvana. So in Jagannātha Purī still the same feelings are there. Kṛṣṇa, Jagannātha, from the temple goes to Guṇḍicā. So Lakṣmī is angry that, "Kṛṣṇa is leaving me. He has gone to Vṛndāvana." So she was . . . she is punishing. That is called Herā-pañcamī, punishing the servants of Kṛṣṇa. The maidservants of Lakṣmī chastising them, threatened them, "Why without permission?" (laughs) So they, out of very fearful condition, offering their respect to Lakṣmī, "Mother, you don't be sorry. I am here . . . (indistinct) . . ." So this, this is the play performed, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu associates they saw, and they enjoyed very much when the maidservant of Lakṣmī was slapping the servant of Viṣṇu. That is mentioned Caitanya-caritāmṛta . All the servants arrested, brought before Lakṣmī, and they are punished. (laughs) But they came to invite Kṛṣṇa, Rādhārāṇī and other gopīs. And actually they do not go at that time. But this Ratha-yātrā ceremony means Kṛṣṇa is coming from Dvārakā to Kurukṣetra. This is the history of Ratha-yātrā. Devotee (5): Do they have any temples of Lord Jagannātha there? They have any temples of Lord Jagannātha in Kurukṣetra? Prabhupāda: No. Jagannātha, that is another history. King Indradyumna, he wanted to establish a temple of that incidence, and that the deities while being carved would remain unfinished. So he was very impatient to establish, so he established the unfinished Deity. That is Jagannātha. Devotee (7): The nondevotees cannot understand . . . Prabhupāda: They are being carved, Kṛṣṇa's wood form, but he was so impatient, he said, "Whatever is done now, establish." It is said that Viśvakarmā was enquiring. So the term was, Viśvakarmā said that "Unless I finish, don't open the door." So this king, he went impatiently, and calling out whether he is finished. Then he forced . . . forcibly opened the door, and it was unfinished. So he said, "Never mind, . . . (indistinct) . . ." Unfinished Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . so Kṛṣṇa, finished or unfinished, is Kṛṣṇa. That is omnipotency. That is Jagannātha form . . . (indistinct) . . . doesn't matter finished or unfinished. (end) (Conversation About Deity Making and Tulasi Tea) Hari-śauri: Twelve inches. That's very small, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's only . . . Govinda dāsī: It's about eighteen inches. Oh, you said twelve inches. Twelve . . . twelve is like this. Hari-śauri: This is a ten by eight. Prabhupāda: Fifteen. Fifteen. Govinda dāsī: Fifteen. Fifteen inches. Prabhupāda: But they are . . . they are done nice. Very artistic flavor. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So, only make a big hall there. On all sides a brass plate . . . (indistinct) . . . you make of this, like this. You make such small dolls, they can be soldered. They are very good . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But, that is good price. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But silicate preparation is, you think, stronger than stone? Govinda dāsī: Yes, I think so. I have . . . I'm making some I was gonna bring and show you this evening, some heads. Prabhupāda: They are done already? Govinda dāsī: Some heads. I was gonna show you . . . Prabhupāda: They are already done? Govinda dāsī: Yes, but they're not fully dry. Two of them are done, but . . . Prabhupāda: So when they dry. Govinda dāsī: It's not fully dried. It will be dry enough to bring by this evening, I think. It's concrete. It's concrete. You had . . . originally you asked me to make them in concrete. The concrete mixed with silica is stronger than just concrete. The concrete, it was, from what I have been told, it was . . . Prabhupāda: Inside, whether has to put network? Govinda dāsī: Armature? Prabhupāda: Ah! Govinda dāsī: Armature. Yes, that may be. That's a metal you have to put inside. Metal. Prabhupāda: That will . . . Govinda dāsī: For strength. Prabhupāda: . . . make strong? Govinda dāsī: Strength, yes. Prabhupāda: Reinforcement. Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very strong. Govinda dāsī: Especially for Kāliya it's going to be necessary. For Kāliya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Because it's a very large piece. (pause) Govinda dāsī: I require some people to help me to do this, but everyone is . . . it's very difficult to get . . . I require two or three girls to help me. Prabhupāda: So ask Śukadeva Goswāmī. Hari-śauri: You want him to come up? Prabhupāda: No. You can ask him. Hari-śauri: Oh. Govinda dāsī: I was just discussing it with him when you called me, and he had just told me that no. (laughs) Prabhupāda: She needs help. Hari-śauri: This is the problem. And I know when Gurukṛpā Mahārāja gets back, he will stop it as well. Govinda dāsī: He'll stop everything, and there's nothing I can do, except do it independently, on my own. Prabhupāda: Why? *Hari-śauri: From, well, from his attitude when he left, he didn't want . . . want anything to do with it at all, any Deity*-making. Prabhupāda: Why? Hari-śauri: I don't know. Prabhupāda: No, that's . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Yeah. I don't know. May be that, that if you write a letter to him, and, and ask him to give some facility. Otherwise, I don't think he'll do it, 'cause he wouldn't be . . . he's objected to it before . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: First of all, let them have this hall. Hari-śauri: Hmm. And then do the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . him, now there is no place for Kṛṣṇa. First of all there must be place. Then we can do everything. *Hari-śauri: Hmm. What about their Deity*-making that they're doing now, for Fiji? They're doing these deities for Fiji. Prabhupāda: You have contacted Baradrāj? Govinda dāsī: I'm going there tomorrow. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . I am going also. Govinda dāsī: Baradrāj, I've talked to him. He, he's very busy doing what he's doing. He's building a museum, and he says he doesn't have time to do . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: . . . the deities too. So therefore that's why I, I was doing them here. I was getting it all organized here. I was simply going to ask him to help me with the Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta and the deity of yourself. Prabhupāda: So you have talked to him? Govinda dāsī: Yes. He told me that he wouldn't have time to even start anything for months, to even begin to help with the Deities for months, 'cause he's doing this museum. Prabhupāda: So you heard from Baradrāj? Govinda dāsī: Yes. So what we were doing is, there's three girls here who we're setting up and working. It's not that difficult, you know. It's not that hard to do. What . . . we were just . . . I was going to talk to Baradrāj about it when I went there, also. (pause) Prabhupāda: So you talked with Gaurasundara yet? Hari-śauri: No. Govinda dāsī: Since he left I haven't seen him or talked to him. He left last week for his farm on the big island. He and his new wife, they left, and I don't know what he's thinking. Prabhupāda: What does he do in his farm? Govinda dāsī: He has a lot of animals. He raises goats and horses. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: And I think they have one cow. They got recently one cow. Hari-śauri: What do they do with goats? Govinda dāsī: They're the girl's pets. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: The goats are the pets. They're like pets. Prabhupāda: Goats for milk? Govinda dāsī: Umm, yeah, you can get milk, but I don't think they do that very much, because they don't like to take it away from the baby goat. Mostly just for pets. They have horses and goats. Prabhupāda: Are they killed? Govinda dāsī: Oh, no. No, they're very much . . . not at all. Hari-śauri: How many of them do they have? Govinda dāsī: At least a dozen. Hari-śauri: Dozen goats? Govinda dāsī: Yeah, a whole bunch of goats. They have at least six horses, too. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: She said they have about a dozen goats and about six horses. Govinda dāsī: I mean, it may be more than that. I'm not . . . I don't really know now. Prabhupāda: So why so many horses? Govinda dāsī: Because they like to ride horses for pleasure. It's a very nice pleasure to ride horses. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: The girl was a rodeo star. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: The girl was a rodeo star. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: That's where you ride horses, you know? In . . . in rodeos. *Prabhupāda: Uh*-huh. Govinda dāsī: You know? Until she had an accident last year. Now she's crippled, and she can't ride. Her leg is . . . she can't ride now any more, but she used to be a . . . Prabhupāda: And she introduced these horses? Govinda dāsī: Yes. He has several people there, like, who follow him and do for him. They will help with the farm work. They have . . . they have gardens. They have nice gardens. Prabhupāda: No Deities? Govinda dāsī: Not to my knowledge. They've started chanting recently. Recently they've started chanting. Just since he came back from India, he started chanting. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: I don't know what his position is. I feel he's changing. I don't know. I think that he feels that you've sanctioned what he's doing, and so he'll probably go on doing it. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: He feels that you have sanctioned his activities, and so he will go on doing what he's doing. Prabhupāda: I have sanctioned? Govinda dāsī: You've sanctioned that he has a farm and he's raising vegetables and living there, and that he's got a new wife and everything. And so he will go on doing what he's doing, because he feels that it's sanctioned. Everyone feels that it's not sanctioned. So probably he'll try to get more . . . he tries to get more people to join and come and live there. That was what he was doing in Honolulu. Prabhupāda: He's sanctioned? He is doing everything without my sanction. (laughs) Who asked him to ride on horse? Govinda dāsī: Who asked him to what? Prabhupāda: Ride on horse. He can say like that. Govinda dāsī: You indicated, or you seemed to approve of what he was doing. Even I thought that you'd sanctioned him to do all these things. I mean, you didn't, you know . . . Prabhupāda: No. Govinda dāsī: You encouraged him. Prabhupāda: I encouraged him? Govinda dāsī: Yes, you encouraged him to chant and to, erm . . . Prabhupāda: That I am encouraging everyone. Govinda dāsī: Yes. Well, anyway, they feel that you've sanctioned their activities now, and that they can proceed and have more people come and live there. (long pause) Govinda dāsī: You asked him to come and travel with you? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: You asked Gaurasundara to come and travel with you? Prabhupāda: That I do. (pause) Prabhupāda: So time is up when? Hari-śauri: No, another hour yet. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: It's only 10:15. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hari-śauri: You're not sleeping in the mornings now? Prabhupāda: I do not bother. Hari-śauri: Just rest a little. Govinda dāsī: How's your health? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: How's your health? Prabhupāda: Health? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not well. Govinda dāsī: Do you want to see some doctor? Prabhupāda: Hmm? (pause) Prabhupāda: Now it is working; (laughing) we must be prepared. Hari-śauri: I think you're already prepared, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: A broken house, you cannot expect. (pause) Prabhupāda: What Śukadeva's gone . . . (indistinct)? Hari-śauri: No. It's a public holiday today. Prabhupāda: All right. (devotees offer obeisances) Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can I ask one question? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: On the tulasī plants. Sometimes they are taking and putting in . . . they boil some water and put the tulasī and make some tea and drink it. Is that . . . I've been told both that it's wrong, and I've been told that it's okay, and I'm wondering whether or not it's . . .? Prabhupāda: Not wrong. Govinda dāsī: Is it wrong to heat the tulasī , to put, put her in hot water, or is, is that okay? Prabhupāda: No, it is not wrong, but they are constantly doing that? Hari-śauri: Oh, I don't know whether they're constantly doing it. Govinda dāsī: There's so much tulasī that they sell it, tulasī tea, at the restaurant, which is . . . Hari-śauri: Yeah . . . Govinda dāsī: . . . people like it . . . Hari-śauri: . . . but Prabhupada . . . Govinda dāsī: . . . it's very tasty. Hari-śauri: Prabhupada said that's all right. Govinda dāsī: Yeah, that's very tasty. There's just, there's tons of tulasī , and there's, there's . . . Prabhupāda: No. That they cannot drink themselves. For customers, that's all right. Govinda dāsī: All right. It's not good for devotees to drink it? *Hari-śauri: No. Because it encourages tea*-drinking habit. Becomes a habit to drink tea. Govinda dāsī: Ohh, I see. Hari-śauri: So the devotees shouldn't . . . shouldn't drink anything like that, unless it's medicinal. Unless they're sick, they have a fever, and tulasī . . . Prabhupāda: Tulasī drink, drink is very palatable. Govinda dāsī: It's very palatable. I used to put tulasī in your water, remember? We used to put . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: . . . tulasī flowers in your water, and it flavors the water. Well, when boiled water is poured on it, it's supposedly very medicinal too. And they drink the tea with a little bit maybe of honey or drink it plain. And it's very palatable. Customers like it. I've . . . I used to drink it, but I heard that it was an offense to, to drink it, so I didn't know. I just thought it was really good. Prabhupāda: No. That as soon as we like it, that means sense gratification. Hari-śauri: Once you drink it for the taste . . . Govinda dāsī: But we like prasādam . (laughing) I didn't know, so I . . . I didn't know if it was wrong. Prabhupāda: No. Govinda dāsī: I thought to heat the tulasīs , what I'd heard . . . Prabhupāda: Tulasī, tulasī leaf you can take, but . . . Govinda dāsī: Heat. Eat, but not the . . . *Prabhupāda: . . . but this tea habit, that means we may revive our tea*-drinking. That is. Govinda dāsī: Oh, I see. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, tulasī leaf eating is good. You can eat leaf, especially palatable with water. Water, that is good. But you make it, imitation tea, that means I remember tea*-drinking. Govinda dāsī: I see. Especially the English. That will be very difficult for the Englishmen. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So you come at half past twelve. Hari-śauri: Hmm. (end) (Conversation About Deity Making and Tulasi Tea) Hari-śauri: Twelve inches. That's very small, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's only . . . Govinda dāsī: It's about eighteen inches. Oh, you said twelve inches. Twelve . . . twelve is like this. Hari-śauri: This is a ten by eight. Prabhupāda: Fifteen. Fifteen. Govinda dāsī: Fifteen. Fifteen inches. Prabhupāda: But they are . . . they are done nice. Very artistic flavor. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So, only make a big hall there. On all sides a brass plate . . . (indistinct) . . . you make of this, like this. You make such small dolls, they can be soldered. They are very good . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But, that is good price. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But silicate preparation is, you think, stronger than stone? Govinda dāsī: Yes, I think so. I have . . . I'm making some I was gonna bring and show you this evening, some heads. Prabhupāda: They are done already? Govinda dāsī: Some heads. I was gonna show you . . . Prabhupāda: They are already done? Govinda dāsī: Yes, but they're not fully dry. Two of them are done, but . . . Prabhupāda: So when they dry. Govinda dāsī: It's not fully dried. It will be dry enough to bring by this evening, I think. It's concrete. It's concrete. You had . . . originally you asked me to make them in concrete. The concrete mixed with silica is stronger than just concrete. The concrete, it was, from what I have been told, it was . . . Prabhupāda: Inside, whether has to put network? Govinda dāsī: Armature? Prabhupāda: Ah! Govinda dāsī: Armature. Yes, that may be. That's a metal you have to put inside. Metal. Prabhupāda: That will . . . Govinda dāsī: For strength. Prabhupāda: . . . make strong? Govinda dāsī: Strength, yes. Prabhupāda: Reinforcement. Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very strong. Govinda dāsī: Especially for Kāliya it's going to be necessary. For Kāliya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Because it's a very large piece. (pause) Govinda dāsī: I require some people to help me to do this, but everyone is . . . it's very difficult to get . . . I require two or three girls to help me. Prabhupāda: So ask Śukadeva Goswāmī. Hari-śauri: You want him to come up? Prabhupāda: No. You can ask him. Hari-śauri: Oh. Govinda dāsī: I was just discussing it with him when you called me, and he had just told me that no. (laughs) Prabhupāda: She needs help. Hari-śauri: This is the problem. And I know when Gurukṛpā Mahārāja gets back, he will stop it as well. Govinda dāsī: He'll stop everything, and there's nothing I can do, except do it independently, on my own. Prabhupāda: Why? *Hari-śauri: From, well, from his attitude when he left, he didn't want . . . want anything to do with it at all, any Deity*-making. Prabhupāda: Why? Hari-śauri: I don't know. Prabhupāda: No, that's . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Yeah. I don't know. May be that, that if you write a letter to him, and, and ask him to give some facility. Otherwise, I don't think he'll do it, 'cause he wouldn't be . . . he's objected to it before . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: First of all, let them have this hall. Hari-śauri: Hmm. And then do the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . him, now there is no place for Kṛṣṇa. First of all there must be place. Then we can do everything. *Hari-śauri: Hmm. What about their Deity*-making that they're doing now, for Fiji? They're doing these deities for Fiji. Prabhupāda: You have contacted Baradrāj? Govinda dāsī: I'm going there tomorrow. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . I am going also. Govinda dāsī: Baradrāj, I've talked to him. He, he's very busy doing what he's doing. He's building a museum, and he says he doesn't have time to do . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: . . . the deities too. So therefore that's why I, I was doing them here. I was getting it all organized here. I was simply going to ask him to help me with the Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta and the deity of yourself. Prabhupāda: So you have talked to him? Govinda dāsī: Yes. He told me that he wouldn't have time to even start anything for months, to even begin to help with the Deities for months, 'cause he's doing this museum. Prabhupāda: So you heard from Baradrāj? Govinda dāsī: Yes. So what we were doing is, there's three girls here who we're setting up and working. It's not that difficult, you know. It's not that hard to do. What . . . we were just . . . I was going to talk to Baradrāj about it when I went there, also. (pause) Prabhupāda: So you talked with Gaurasundara yet? Hari-śauri: No. Govinda dāsī: Since he left I haven't seen him or talked to him. He left last week for his farm on the big island. He and his new wife, they left, and I don't know what he's thinking. Prabhupāda: What does he do in his farm? Govinda dāsī: He has a lot of animals. He raises goats and horses. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: And I think they have one cow. They got recently one cow. Hari-śauri: What do they do with goats? Govinda dāsī: They're the girl's pets. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: The goats are the pets. They're like pets. Prabhupāda: Goats for milk? Govinda dāsī: Umm, yeah, you can get milk, but I don't think they do that very much, because they don't like to take it away from the baby goat. Mostly just for pets. They have horses and goats. Prabhupāda: Are they killed? Govinda dāsī: Oh, no. No, they're very much . . . not at all. Hari-śauri: How many of them do they have? Govinda dāsī: At least a dozen. Hari-śauri: Dozen goats? Govinda dāsī: Yeah, a whole bunch of goats. They have at least six horses, too. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: She said they have about a dozen goats and about six horses. Govinda dāsī: I mean, it may be more than that. I'm not . . . I don't really know now. Prabhupāda: So why so many horses? Govinda dāsī: Because they like to ride horses for pleasure. It's a very nice pleasure to ride horses. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: The girl was a rodeo star. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: The girl was a rodeo star. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: That's where you ride horses, you know? In . . . in rodeos. *Prabhupāda: Uh*-huh. Govinda dāsī: You know? Until she had an accident last year. Now she's crippled, and she can't ride. Her leg is . . . she can't ride now any more, but she used to be a . . . Prabhupāda: And she introduced these horses? Govinda dāsī: Yes. He has several people there, like, who follow him and do for him. They will help with the farm work. They have . . . they have gardens. They have nice gardens. Prabhupāda: No Deities? Govinda dāsī: Not to my knowledge. They've started chanting recently. Recently they've started chanting. Just since he came back from India, he started chanting. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: I don't know what his position is. I feel he's changing. I don't know. I think that he feels that you've sanctioned what he's doing, and so he'll probably go on doing it. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: He feels that you have sanctioned his activities, and so he will go on doing what he's doing. Prabhupāda: I have sanctioned? Govinda dāsī: You've sanctioned that he has a farm and he's raising vegetables and living there, and that he's got a new wife and everything. And so he will go on doing what he's doing, because he feels that it's sanctioned. Everyone feels that it's not sanctioned. So probably he'll try to get more . . . he tries to get more people to join and come and live there. That was what he was doing in Honolulu. Prabhupāda: He's sanctioned? He is doing everything without my sanction. (laughs) Who asked him to ride on horse? Govinda dāsī: Who asked him to what? Prabhupāda: Ride on horse. He can say like that. Govinda dāsī: You indicated, or you seemed to approve of what he was doing. Even I thought that you'd sanctioned him to do all these things. I mean, you didn't, you know . . . Prabhupāda: No. Govinda dāsī: You encouraged him. Prabhupāda: I encouraged him? Govinda dāsī: Yes, you encouraged him to chant and to, erm . . . Prabhupāda: That I am encouraging everyone. Govinda dāsī: Yes. Well, anyway, they feel that you've sanctioned their activities now, and that they can proceed and have more people come and live there. (long pause) Govinda dāsī: You asked him to come and travel with you? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: You asked Gaurasundara to come and travel with you? Prabhupāda: That I do. (pause) Prabhupāda: So time is up when? Hari-śauri: No, another hour yet. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: It's only 10:15. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hari-śauri: You're not sleeping in the mornings now? Prabhupāda: I do not bother. Hari-śauri: Just rest a little. Govinda dāsī: How's your health? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: How's your health? Prabhupāda: Health? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not well. Govinda dāsī: Do you want to see some doctor? Prabhupāda: Hmm? (pause) Prabhupāda: Now it is working; (laughing) we must be prepared. Hari-śauri: I think you're already prepared, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: A broken house, you cannot expect. (pause) Prabhupāda: What Śukadeva's gone . . . (indistinct)? Hari-śauri: No. It's a public holiday today. Prabhupāda: All right. (devotees offer obeisances) Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can I ask one question? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: On the tulasī plants. Sometimes they are taking and putting in . . . they boil some water and put the tulasī and make some tea and drink it. Is that . . . I've been told both that it's wrong, and I've been told that it's okay, and I'm wondering whether or not it's . . .? Prabhupāda: Not wrong. Govinda dāsī: Is it wrong to heat the tulasī , to put, put her in hot water, or is, is that okay? Prabhupāda: No, it is not wrong, but they are constantly doing that? Hari-śauri: Oh, I don't know whether they're constantly doing it. Govinda dāsī: There's so much tulasī that they sell it, tulasī tea, at the restaurant, which is . . . Hari-śauri: Yeah . . . Govinda dāsī: . . . people like it . . . Hari-śauri: . . . but Prabhupada . . . Govinda dāsī: . . . it's very tasty. Hari-śauri: Prabhupada said that's all right. Govinda dāsī: Yeah, that's very tasty. There's just, there's tons of tulasī , and there's, there's . . . Prabhupāda: No. That they cannot drink themselves. For customers, that's all right. Govinda dāsī: All right. It's not good for devotees to drink it? *Hari-śauri: No. Because it encourages tea*-drinking habit. Becomes a habit to drink tea. Govinda dāsī: Ohh, I see. Hari-śauri: So the devotees shouldn't . . . shouldn't drink anything like that, unless it's medicinal. Unless they're sick, they have a fever, and tulasī . . . Prabhupāda: Tulasī drink, drink is very palatable. Govinda dāsī: It's very palatable. I used to put tulasī in your water, remember? We used to put . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: . . . tulasī flowers in your water, and it flavors the water. Well, when boiled water is poured on it, it's supposedly very medicinal too. And they drink the tea with a little bit maybe of honey or drink it plain. And it's very palatable. Customers like it. I've . . . I used to drink it, but I heard that it was an offense to, to drink it, so I didn't know. I just thought it was really good. Prabhupāda: No. That as soon as we like it, that means sense gratification. Hari-śauri: Once you drink it for the taste . . . Govinda dāsī: But we like prasādam . (laughing) I didn't know, so I . . . I didn't know if it was wrong. Prabhupāda: No. Govinda dāsī: I thought to heat the tulasīs , what I'd heard . . . Prabhupāda: Tulasī, tulasī leaf you can take, but . . . Govinda dāsī: Heat. Eat, but not the . . . *Prabhupāda: . . . but this tea habit, that means we may revive our tea*-drinking. That is. Govinda dāsī: Oh, I see. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, tulasī leaf eating is good. You can eat leaf, especially palatable with water. Water, that is good. But you make it, imitation tea, that means I remember tea*-drinking. Govinda dāsī: I see. Especially the English. That will be very difficult for the Englishmen. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So you come at half past twelve. Hari-śauri: Hmm. (end) Devotee: She has come to an impasse in her family life. She doesn't know what to do. So the situation, I think you are familiar with, that Gaurasundara has been living with this other girl for three years, and Govinda dāsī is under the impression that you've sanctioned that Gaurasundara can have two wives. Prabhupāda: He . . . she can imagine anything. What can I do? Govinda dāsī: Well, he told me that you sanctioned it. Devotee: I said that . . . Govinda dāsī: Gaurasundara will come back. Devotee: . . . that you were sympathetic that these young girls had no husbands, but . . . Prabhupāda: We have nothing to do with it. Govinda dāsī: The girl is agreeable to going, to . . . she doesn't care, and I just want Gaurasundara to come back. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . to this family. Gaurasundara is out of, also. These things will change our . . . (indistinct) . . . it is my suggestion that so many girls are without husband, if a husband can maintain three dozen wives I have no objection. Govinda dāsī: He doesn't maintain me. Prabhupāda: Huh? Then what can I do? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is your affair. But I say if a person is able to maintain three dozen wives, then I have no objection. Now, if he does not maintain you, then what can I do? That is your situation. Devotee: I think I have told her the same thing. *Prabhupāda: Neither it is my business to deal with family life. No more. That is my general opinion. But if they can maintain more than one wife . . . it is simply a question of maintaining. But if one is not maintaining, what can I do? Now we shall not deal with family affairs anymore. We give chance to the gṛhastha to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but we cannot tax our brain over that. That is not . . . generally gṛhastha should live apart from temple. Gṛhastha should not live in the temple. If there is . . . (indistinct) . . . becoming a problem. Every gṛhastha must take care of wife, children, maintenance. But how you can do that, temple*-living? Temple is meant for the renounced, for the brahmacārīs , who have no, I mean to say, embarrassment, that "I have to take care of my wife, I have to take care of children, I have to do this, I have to do that." As soon as one becomes gṛhastha , he has got his own . . . (indistinct) . . . so everyone has got his passion how to maintain their . . . (indistinct) . . . now how the temple can do it, handle this? Better avoid. This is a . . . (indistinct) . . . small temple . . . (indistinct) . . . gṛhastha . Temple is meant for person who is exclusively interested for Kṛṣṇa culture. We are advising to stop sex, and gṛhastha life is sex life. So how we can (laughs) tax our brain? The gṛhastha life is sex life, straightforward sex life. So we are advising "No sex." Devotee: A constant worry in your . . . (indistinct) . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: That must be worry in your . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Don't worry. So about this sex āśrama , it is not possible to tax our brain. But according to the Vedic system, if a man marries more than one wife, there is no . . . how it is possible in this condition? We are in Western country . . . (indistinct) . . . but we are not Krsna, we can't maintain more than one wife. Devotee: They cannot live in the temple separately in such a circum . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: If they want to do so, they can't live in the temple separately? Prabhupāda: No, no. In the temple even living with one wife it is not possible. We have to restrict them. No wives live in the temple in India. Family . . . (indistinct) . . . in certain circumstance, in the temple they live separately, but not in the temple building. That is strictly prohibited. It is becoming a great problem, because there are girls, there are boys, so the temple is becoming a lovemaking center. Even one grhastha . . . (indistinct) . . . he has got his wife, he is implicated with another woman. Even if one is gṛhastha . The girl is after another husband. This is the practice now in the Western countries. Even they are allowed to live as gṛhastha , then it will still create havoc. It will be very problematic. I thought, "Let them be married." So their business is different—sense enjoyment. Sometimes here, sometimes there, sometimes where? Sometimes take sannyāsa , then again implicated with another woman. These things are going on. It is . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot take care of the children, and not sending to school. Hmm? Every woman is taking care of her child. Why not woman taking care of ten children? Then the mothers will be free to do some help to the organization. Early in the morning they are coming. Everyone is anxious to take care of their children. Even they marry, there is problem, children and, what is it called, adultery. Eh? Devotee: Mixing with another man's wife. Prabhupāda: Yes. And if they do not marry, the man is hunting after woman, and woman is hunting after man. So both ways there is trouble. If they marry, really, then there are children. Then the problem is you have to take care of the children. Devotee: And they don't even take care of the children. Prabhupāda: This is great problem. The temple is meant for advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore those who are carefree of family life can live any way; there is no question of much anxiety for living and eating—that is secondary. Then they can live in temple. One who wants to live comfortably, requiring sex, children—that is a big problem for the temple. Devotee: Apparently. Prabhupāda: These things disturb Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he wanted to make some stricture. But they become very much upset. I don't want to upset; let them live. But they must always remember the temple is meant for only advancing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We should not bring other problems. This household life is material problems, sex problems. So how the temple can take responsibility for these problems? Then Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be slack. So? That's all right? So don't . . . *Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I wanted to show you these pictures also. Siddha*-svarūpa gave them to me. They are from . . . they are deities that they made in the Philippines, very inexpensively, by their sculptors there, and they are made out of wood. And they are copies. I just thought you would be interested. Devotee: How big are those deities? You know? How big are those deities? *Govinda dāsī: They are twenty*-seven inches high, and they only cost fifteen dollars each to make, and they are made out of carved wood. The anatomy is not very nice—I mean it could be better—but that is because I think they did not have anything to copy. But the Phili . . . they were very, very cheap for wood. Very cheap for that much craftsmanship. They are poor there. But Sudāmā Vipra Mahārāja . . . Prabhupāda: He sent? The picture is sent by him? *Govinda dāsī: No. Siddha*-svarūpa just gave it to me as I was coming in. He showed it to me. And apparently it was sent to Siddha-svarūpa by Sudāmā, and I don't . . . Prabhupada: . . . (indistinct) (break) Devotee: This is concerning that BBT business in Vṛndāvana . . . in India. Gopal . . . (break) (end) Devotee: She has come to an impasse in her family life. She doesn't know what to do. So the situation, I think you are familiar with, that Gaurasundara has been living with this other girl for three years, and Govinda dāsī is under the impression that you've sanctioned that Gaurasundara can have two wives. Prabhupāda: He . . . she can imagine anything. What can I do? Govinda dāsī: Well, he told me that you sanctioned it. Devotee: I said that . . . Govinda dāsī: Gaurasundara will come back. Devotee: . . . that you were sympathetic that these young girls had no husbands, but . . . Prabhupāda: We have nothing to do with it. Govinda dāsī: The girl is agreeable to going, to . . . she doesn't care, and I just want Gaurasundara to come back. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . to this family. Gaurasundara is out of, also. These things will change our . . . (indistinct) . . . it is my suggestion that so many girls are without husband, if a husband can maintain three dozen wives I have no objection. Govinda dāsī: He doesn't maintain me. Prabhupāda: Huh? Then what can I do? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is your affair. But I say if a person is able to maintain three dozen wives, then I have no objection. Now, if he does not maintain you, then what can I do? That is your situation. Devotee: I think I have told her the same thing. *Prabhupāda: Neither it is my business to deal with family life. No more. That is my general opinion. But if they can maintain more than one wife . . . it is simply a question of maintaining. But if one is not maintaining, what can I do? Now we shall not deal with family affairs anymore. We give chance to the gṛhastha to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but we cannot tax our brain over that. That is not . . . generally gṛhastha should live apart from temple. Gṛhastha should not live in the temple. If there is . . . (indistinct) . . . becoming a problem. Every gṛhastha must take care of wife, children, maintenance. But how you can do that, temple*-living? Temple is meant for the renounced, for the brahmacārīs , who have no, I mean to say, embarrassment, that "I have to take care of my wife, I have to take care of children, I have to do this, I have to do that." As soon as one becomes gṛhastha , he has got his own . . . (indistinct) . . . so everyone has got his passion how to maintain their . . . (indistinct) . . . now how the temple can do it, handle this? Better avoid. This is a . . . (indistinct) . . . small temple . . . (indistinct) . . . gṛhastha . Temple is meant for person who is exclusively interested for Kṛṣṇa culture. We are advising to stop sex, and gṛhastha life is sex life. So how we can (laughs) tax our brain? The gṛhastha life is sex life, straightforward sex life. So we are advising "No sex." Devotee: A constant worry in your . . . (indistinct) . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: That must be worry in your . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Don't worry. So about this sex āśrama , it is not possible to tax our brain. But according to the Vedic system, if a man marries more than one wife, there is no . . . how it is possible in this condition? We are in Western country . . . (indistinct) . . . but we are not Krsna, we can't maintain more than one wife. Devotee: They cannot live in the temple separately in such a circum . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: If they want to do so, they can't live in the temple separately? Prabhupāda: No, no. In the temple even living with one wife it is not possible. We have to restrict them. No wives live in the temple in India. Family . . . (indistinct) . . . in certain circumstance, in the temple they live separately, but not in the temple building. That is strictly prohibited. It is becoming a great problem, because there are girls, there are boys, so the temple is becoming a lovemaking center. Even one grhastha . . . (indistinct) . . . he has got his wife, he is implicated with another woman. Even if one is gṛhastha . The girl is after another husband. This is the practice now in the Western countries. Even they are allowed to live as gṛhastha , then it will still create havoc. It will be very problematic. I thought, "Let them be married." So their business is different—sense enjoyment. Sometimes here, sometimes there, sometimes where? Sometimes take sannyāsa , then again implicated with another woman. These things are going on. It is . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot take care of the children, and not sending to school. Hmm? Every woman is taking care of her child. Why not woman taking care of ten children? Then the mothers will be free to do some help to the organization. Early in the morning they are coming. Everyone is anxious to take care of their children. Even they marry, there is problem, children and, what is it called, adultery. Eh? Devotee: Mixing with another man's wife. Prabhupāda: Yes. And if they do not marry, the man is hunting after woman, and woman is hunting after man. So both ways there is trouble. If they marry, really, then there are children. Then the problem is you have to take care of the children. Devotee: And they don't even take care of the children. Prabhupāda: This is great problem. The temple is meant for advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore those who are carefree of family life can live any way; there is no question of much anxiety for living and eating—that is secondary. Then they can live in temple. One who wants to live comfortably, requiring sex, children—that is a big problem for the temple. Devotee: Apparently. Prabhupāda: These things disturb Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he wanted to make some stricture. But they become very much upset. I don't want to upset; let them live. But they must always remember the temple is meant for only advancing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We should not bring other problems. This household life is material problems, sex problems. So how the temple can take responsibility for these problems? Then Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be slack. So? That's all right? So don't . . . *Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I wanted to show you these pictures also. Siddha*-svarūpa gave them to me. They are from . . . they are deities that they made in the Philippines, very inexpensively, by their sculptors there, and they are made out of wood. And they are copies. I just thought you would be interested. Devotee: How big are those deities? You know? How big are those deities? *Govinda dāsī: They are twenty*-seven inches high, and they only cost fifteen dollars each to make, and they are made out of carved wood. The anatomy is not very nice—I mean it could be better—but that is because I think they did not have anything to copy. But the Phili . . . they were very, very cheap for wood. Very cheap for that much craftsmanship. They are poor there. But Sudāmā Vipra Mahārāja . . . Prabhupāda: He sent? The picture is sent by him? *Govinda dāsī: No. Siddha*-svarūpa just gave it to me as I was coming in. He showed it to me. And apparently it was sent to Siddha-svarūpa by Sudāmā, and I don't . . . Prabhupada: . . . (indistinct) (break) Devotee: This is concerning that BBT business in Vṛndāvana . . . in India. Gopal . . . (break) (end) Devotee: . . . also. Prabhupāda: So, little distant, no? Devotee: It's a little distant is the only problem. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And there are several other advantages. Devotee: But I suggested that Jayatīrtha would be responsible as GBC. Prabhupāda: He was responsible. Devotee: Well, I agree. Well, I can come . . . I have never been GBC for Hawaii. Prabhupāda: No? *Devotee: I've never been GBC here. Bali*-mardana was GBC, and then after that time it was never resolved who would be GBC. But Sudāmā was here, and you told him to go direct to . . . (indistinct) . . . so I never suggested that I become the GBC, because it was . . . (indistinct) . . . more and more territory. Otherwise I would have been more concerned. (break) Prabhupāda: Anyway, do something. Nothing happening, that is not very good. Devotee (2): Now they have a responsible president . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): There is a responsible president here, who will not be so whimsical . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Hawaii was never part of the western zone; *it was always separate. Gaurasundara was here, it was separate. And then Bali*-mardana was here Rāmeśvara: No, Gaurasundara was the GBC secretary. Devotee (2): No, before his time. (indistinct conversation between devotees) (break) Prabhupāda: Don't sell the bigger one. Rāmeśvara: The question is, if it is to be distributed in India, should we insert the Sanskrit, because in India, if it does not have Sanskrit, it may not be taken as authority. Prabhupāda: No. No. That is not. Rāmeśvara: That is not necessary? Prabhupāda: No. Sanskrit is meant for the scholarly person, not for general public. And especially in the Western countries, if they see Sanskrit and the transliteration, they take it very seriously. (break) Rāmeśvara: Just as it was, without any Sanskrit or any transliteration—just the verse and the purport? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And some pictures. Rāmeśvara: And we will include pictures, in color. *Prabhupāda: I think there is no purport . . . or verse. You have no copy of Gaura*-līlā ? Rāmeśvara: Copy of the original? Abridged addition? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Yes, we have copy. Prabhupāda: So there is no verse? Devotee (2): There is verse in English. Rāmeśvara: In English. There is translation and then purport, some purport. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but no verse. There's no verse in there. The verses are not there. There is straight translation and purport. Rāmeśvara: Oh, I see, yes. Straight translation and purport. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you want me to have traveling saṅkīrtana party in India now? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) The family members are compared with the foxes and jackals. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are all a liability? Prabhupāda: No. In the forest, when you are attacked by foxes and jackals, they take away your flesh and bones. My children are like that. And the senses are compared with the—what is called—dacoits, plunderers. Actually that is a fact. The senses . . . suppose a man is born in a rich family. To take birth in rich family is due to past pious activities. So pious activities means performing sacrifices, rituals—these are pious activities. So as a result of pious activities . . . it is sounding too much. Why? How before it was not sounding? Devotee (2): We'll keep the curtain open. (break) Prabhupāda: In this bank. Devotee (2): No, no, no. That is in the German bank. Seven hundred thousand. Prabhupāda: Seven hundred thousand. Marks? Devotee: Right. Two hundred and eighty thousand dollars. Approximately. Prabhupāda: So we cannot withdraw that? Devotee (2): No. It is in a fixed deposit in a bank account, but we can't withdraw it, but there's things to show that we can be able to get it. Prabhupāda: Oh. We cannot spend it? Devotee (2): Not yet. But at least the police are not holding it any more. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Back in our . . . (indistinct) . . . in India . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So at least the money is safe now. Devotee (2): Sounds that way. But if it is in a fixed deposit, then we can also use it actually. Prabhupāda: No. Fixed deposit for month, one month, so that we are not losing the interest. Fixed deposit means there is interest. Devotee (2): Right. Rāmeśvara: Also credit from the printer. He will see that we have the money in the bank. He will give us credit again, so we can print books in Germany. Devotee (3): How's Gaurasundara? (break) Prabhupāda: If he surrenders, then there is no question of arrest. Devotee: Yes, that is what they are arranging. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee (3): He said there won't be any problems. They can arrange it. They are going to talk to the prosecuting attorneys and set up a trial date and then leave it up to him. As long as he agrees to come back for the trial date. One of the questions that he had was that he wanted to know exactly what he and Brahmānanda should do. Should they . . . he knows that you want joint management in Europe, and he wants to know whether . . . he is going to call back on Monday. He wants to find out by that time whether he and Brahmānanda should take full charge of London, Paris and Germany, or what should be done. Prabhupāda: What is Haṁsadūta's desire? Haṁsadūta: Well, I thought I would go back and go to Germany and see the situation with Brahmānanda. Prabhupāda: Yes. He has to go. So, when he has to go? Devotee (3): He said it wasn't fixed yet. But he was meant to let Haṁsadūta know as soon as it was fixed up. Prabhupāda: Until we think of the proper situation, there should be a man there. Then let Haṁsadūta go and see the situation in Germany . . . then we decide. Devotee (3): He said that Brahmānanda's willing to stay there and manage if you want him to. He said in that report that he was ready to come to Los Angeles immediately if you wanted him to stay there. Prabhupāda: That I know what I have said. First of all, let Haṁsadūta go there. Devotee (3): And then I can discuss. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, do you want me to . . . I get the impression from Paramahaṁsa that you wanted me to travel with you for some time. Prabhupāda: Yes. That I want for everyone. (pause) Prabhupāda: The tendency for becoming guru is there. But after all, every one of you should become guru . But why immature attempt? That is my question. Everyone will become guru when he is expert disciple, but why this immature attempt? Guru is not a thing, imitation. When one is mature, he becomes guru automatically. What is the answer to this, their making some attempt to become guru ? I am training you all to become guru in the future. Now the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the properties and everything, I will not take with me. They will remain where they are. It requires very mature treatment. But there has been some attempt to become guru immediately. Am I correct or not? Hm? We are also acting as guru . My other Godbrothers, they are also doing that. But we never attempted during the lifetime of our Guru Mahārāja. That is not the etiquette. It is an immature attempt. And it is not the thing that by artificial attempt one becomes guru . Guru is accepted by etiquette, not by artificial attempt. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā ( CC Madhya 7.128): "Follow My order and become guru ." Not that you become guru . Hmm? You have to follow the paramparā system, order. That is guru . Not that I declare myself as guru . No. That is not guru . Guru is he who has strictly followed the order of the spiritual master. He can become guru . Otherwise it will be spoilt. Artificial attempt is not good. (pause) *Prabhupāda: Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 8)—we are singing daily, hundred times. Guru means kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 7). Do you understand all these lines? You sing daily, thrice. Do you understand the meaning of these words? Can anyone explain? Devotee (3): Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya —"The spiritual master is very dear to Kṛṣṇa." *Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all one has to become very dear to Kṛṣṇa, then automatically he becomes guru . And when one becomes very dear to Kṛṣṇa, then he becomes guru , and by the mercy of such guru Kṛṣṇa becomes merciful. These are the statements of the śāstra. Ār nā koriho āśā . What is that, guru*-mukha-padma-vākya ? Devotee (3): *Prabhupāda: Ār nā koriho mane āśā. Simply whatever you hear from the guru , try to execute it. Ār nā koriho mane āśā. Do not expect anything more. So whatever we are chanting, we are reading, we must realize that. The Gauḍīya Maṭha institution became a failure on account of disobedience and not following the orders. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura's statement about the verse vyavasāyātmikā buddhir —find out this verse from the Bhagavad*-gītā . The Caitanya-caritāmṛta statement, āmāra : one can become guru by the superior order. Devotee (3): Shall I read it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): *"Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolved is many*-branched." Prabhupāda: And the purport? *Devotee (3): "A strong faith in Kṛṣṇa consciousness that one should be elevated to the highest perfection of life is called vyavasāyātmikā intelligence. The Caitanya*-caritāmṛta states: "Faith means unflinching trust in something sublime. When one is engaged in the duties of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he need not act in relationship to the material world, with obligations to family traditions, humanity or nationality. Fruitive activities are the engagements of one's reaction from past good or bad deeds. When one is awake in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he need no longer endeavor for good results in his activities. When one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all activities are on the absolute plane, for they are no longer subject to dualities like "good" and "bad." The highest perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is renunciation of the material conception of life. This state is automatically achieved by progressive Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The resolute purpose of a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is based on the knowledge ( vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ ) (BG 7.19) by which one comes to know perfectly that Vāsudeva, or Kṛṣṇa, is the root of all manifested causes. As water on the root of a tree is automatically distributed to the leaves and branches, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one can render the highest service to everyone—namely self, family, society, country, humanity, etc. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied by one's actions, then everyone will be satisfied." "Service in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is, however, best practiced under the able guidance of a spiritual master who is a bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa, who knows the nature of the student and who can guide him to act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As such, to be well versed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one has to act firmly and obey the representative of Kṛṣṇa, and one should accept the instructions of the bona fide spiritual master as one's mission in life. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura instructs us, in his famous prayers for the spiritual master, as follows: "By satisfaction of the spiritual master, the Supreme Personality of Godhead becomes satisfied. And by not satisfying the spiritual master, there is no chance of being promoted to the plane of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I should, therefore, meditate and pray for his mercy three times a day, and offer my respectful obeisances unto him, my spiritual master." "The whole process, however, depends on perfect knowledge of the soul beyond the conception of the body—not theoretically, but practically, when there is no longer chance for sense gratification manifested in fruitive activities. When one is not firmly fixed in mind . . . one who is not firmly fixed in mind is diverted by various types of fruitive activities." Prabhupāda: These artificial attempts to become guru is not the platform of guru . Do you all realize this now? Hm? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like this Bal Yogi Guru Mahārāja. That kind of Guru Mahārāja anyone can become; it is not very difficult. But really guru is not like that. That is evaṁ paramparā viduḥ. Evaṁ paramparā . . . eh? Devotees: Prabhupāda: Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Through the paramparā . Hmm? Imaṁ vivasvate yoga proktavān aham (BG 4.1). So the training period to attempt to become guru , that is not very good etiquette. That is artificial. At least officially during the lifetime of guru , nobody should attempt like that. The disciple should always remain as perfectly subordinate and be disciplined. Disciple means one who is being disciplined. That is disciple. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He is God, Kṛṣṇa; still He said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71): "My guru , seeing Me a fool number one, he has chastised Me." Now who can chastise Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu? But that is the way of disciplic succession. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, guru more mūrkha dekhi . Who can be guru of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and who is actually His guru who will say Caitanya Mahāprabhu is a fool? But He said that guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana : "My Guru Mahārāja found Me a fool number one, and therefore he has chastised Me." This is the position of disciple. So one who is always prepared to be chastised by guru , he is eligible to become guru . So these attempts are being done, just like Gaurasundara told that, "Why should I live under the subjugation of these people? Let me go away, to become a guru ." Similarly Sudāmā. This attempt will not be successful, but there is some attempt like that. What can be done? Such attempt will never be successful, but there are some attempts like that. (break) What is your answer? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that everybody should resolve not to do it in any form at all. I have heard similar . . . I have heard this type of complaint from other places also, where some other devotees have tried to call themselves some type of a guru . Whenever I heard that, I have been very disturbed. Devotee (2): Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is desiring to be lower than the straw in the street. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): Caitanya Mahāprabhu is desiring to be lower than the straw in the street. So for him to desire to be guru , that is not in line with Caitanya Mahāprabhu. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I am just trying to clarify—I don't want to offend anyone—but no disciple of yours should call himself dīkṣā*-guru or śikṣā-guru . Am I right? *Prabhupāda: Well, everyone is engaged to become śikṣā*-guru , but one should become perfect. The attempt is—what is called?—probationer. When probationer period is finished, then he is naturally, automatically, bona fide guru . Not in the probationer period. That is immature attempt. That will failure. Āmāra ājñāya (CC Madhya 7.128), Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "By My order." So all my disciples are expected to become śikṣā-guru on my order, not by his own order. That is meaning that I am giving sannyāsa , I am sending you to different places, so this means that you have to carry out the order of the guru very strictly; then you become mature. Otherwise it will be artificial attempt, and that kind of guru will not help. Just like there are so many guru s and avatāras and yogīs are coming. For time being there is some culture, and what is the effect? Just like this . . . what is that? Devotee: Guru Mahārāja? Prabhupāda: No, no. Guru Mahārāja is later than that. Before that? Devotees: Maharishi Yogi! Prabhupāda: So what is the effect? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No one talks of him now. Rāmeśvara: No. He is making big business. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rāmeśvara: He has made his guru into guru business, big business. His men go to the college wearing tie and suit, and they initiate the students for one hundred dollars. He is making millions of dollars by cheating, and making it into a big business. He gets one hundred dollars, and he gives them a special mantra , which is just one line of . . . *Prabhupāda: That he was giving beginning by thirty*-five dollars. Now he has made it one hundred? Devotees: Inflation! (laughter) Devotee: The cost of being a guru has gone up. (laughter) Rāmeśvara: We have one devotee named Bahulāśva, and his friend is working for this guru , this Maharishi Yogi. So he just got one letter saying that this cheating yogī , he went to Europe, and he has made millions of dollars by initiating students in the colleges there. *Devotee (3): Thirty*-five thousand people. *Rāmeśvara: He said the letter—we do not know if it is true—the letter reported that thirty*-five thousand people paid one hundred dollars to get some . . . to be cheated. Prabhupāda: So who wrote you that letter? Rāmeśvara: One friend of our devotee Bahulāśva. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The world of the cheaters and the cheated. Rāmeśvara: He is very famous, because he presents his method as very scientific. *Devotee (3): You get a million*-dollar grant from the government . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee (3): Their group got a one*-million-dollar grant from the US government, so they presented research showing how Transcendental Meditation helps one to relax. So there is a big problem in America, because everyone is very much in anxiety, and the government recognizes that, so anything that will help them relax, they think is very good. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It helps them get off drugs also. That's what the research showed. Devotee (3): Yeah, one million dollars. He is very active on the college campuses; he is making great headway there. Rāmeśvara: He is making millions of dollars just from the colleges. Devotee: Every college has got very big displays. Rāmeśvara: Posters. Posters of his Transcendental Meditation process. Devotee (3): Very professional. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in India they did some research on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Transcendental Meditation, and they found out . . . Prabhupāda: What is that Transcendental Meditation? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't know. Devotee (3): It is just a mantra . Rāmeśvara: Bahulāśva's friend told him that they are giving one line of the klīṁ gāyatrī mantra . He teaches them to chant the word klīṁ over and over again. Prabhupāda: The chanting is there. Rāmeśvara: For one hundred dollars they give you that word. Devotee (3): Do they chant silently? Rāmeśvara: They chant silently. Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that? Devotee (3): They chant for thirty times in a day for a few minutes. They chant silently this mantra . Prabhupāda: The chanting is there. So where is the difference between ours and theirs? Devotee: Theirs is not given by a bona fide guru . Devotee (4): They are also advocating meditating on void. *Rāmeśvara: The difference is that he does not give them Kṛṣṇa. He does not mention Kṛṣṇa. He tells them that they are all God. He has written a commentary on Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Then why meditation if you are God? Rāmeśvara: He is in the line of Śaṅkarācārya. He claims that he is coming from Śaṅkarācārya's disciplic succession. *Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya says, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha*-mate. Rāmeśvara: They have a story that Śaṅkarācārya was not healthy when he said that. (laughter) That is their story. Prabhupāda: God becomes unhealthy sometimes. (laughter) So what kind of God is he? If he is subjected to become unhealthy, like ordinary being, then what kind of God he is? Rāmeśvara: But the reason it is popular is because each student gets to think that he can become God. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: You don't have to take it seriously. You don't have to give up anything. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: There is no sacrifice involved, just a little money. They think it will help them develop something. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have met several people who have left him and who have realized that he is a cheat. They make the initial commitment, but after finalizing they all realize that he is a cheat. Prabhupāda: There are some like that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, many! Rāmeśvara: They do not consider him their spiritual master. The do not accept him as spiritual master. They do not surrender their life to him. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's just a business. Devotee: It is a business where they are paying money to get a mantra . They do not accept him completely as spiritual master. And he is happy that way. No responsibility. He just takes their money. Rāmeśvara: How old is he? Devotee: He is old. He cannot even enjoy anymore. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He has his own jet plane. Prabhupāda: Jet plane? Rāmeśvara: He has his own jet plane. Yet he tells the college students that if you take this process of Transcendental Meditation then you will become more intelligent, your efficiency will increase, you will be able to get better grades. When you go into the business world you will be a big success. So he is holding that out in front of them, and they are all buying it. And that is his . . . Devotee: It is compatible with sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: You use it to increase your sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Well that is very encouraging for materialistic person. If one is doing austerity, and is able to gratify your senses very nicely, then he is pleased. Devotee: It appears he has some mystic power to make everyone . . . make them believe in him. Prabhupāda: Śrīla Yes, that he has. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like that Sai Baba in India. I don't know about him but I met a lot of people who think that he is an incarnation of God. They say that he has done some mystic . . . Devotee (3): We met one fellow, he said he is Bhagavān. We said: "Bhagavān means all beauty." He said: "Yes." We said: "You call him beautiful?" (laughter) He didn't look very beautiful to me. (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About four days ago there was one devotee, Santoṣa. He is a Sanskrit editor. He was distributing books at Kennedy Airport, and one man walked up to him and said: "Hey, Kṛṣṇa is sitting in the Air India lounge!" So he went to the Air India lounge and there was an old Bengali sādhu . He did not even speak one word of English or Sanskrit. He had big beard and some ten, fifteen followers next to him, and one Indian businessman, and he was distributing chocolates to his followers. So Santoṣa went and sold him a book. Rāmeśvara: Haribol! Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They were calling him to be Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Bala Yogi also said he was Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But now his wife is suing him in the court. It was on television. Rāmeśvara: Bala Yogi's wife? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Bala Yogi is being sued by his wife in the court. I don't know. Someone told me they seen on television. And also various other people had financed him earlier, now they are filing claims against him for the money. And I read in an Indian newspaper that the city of Lucknow has filed a claim against Bala Yogi because they put up his posters all over the city, and they ruined the city property. So they filed an eleven*-thousand-rupees claim against him, and they will take them to court. Rāmeśvara: He is not considered seriously, but this other, Maharishi Yogi, they take him as an important teacher. And with all the money he has made he has purchased one university in America. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Really? Rāmeśvara: What is the name? Devotee (3): Parsons University, in Iowa. Rāmeśvara: He has purchased the whole university to teach his nonsense. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But the sincere souls realize that your movement is the only genuine movement. Prabhupāda: They say? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The sincere persons realize that your movement . . . Prabhupāda: But how many sincere persons I have got? (laughter) Devotee: All your disciples! Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even our sympathizers are advanced. Prabhupāda: Do they speak anything about our movement? It is already known. What do they speak? Rāmeśvara: They do not understand it. Prabhupāda: Hm? Rāmeśvara: They do not understand it. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? Rāmeśvara: They do not understand our movement, the purpose of it. Devotee: Balyogeshwar made one comment about our movement. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: He said that, "They are actually my best disciples." (laughter) Prabhupāda: He said? Devotee: He said that, "They love me so much, and they don't even know who I am." Rāmeśvara: Yes, he said that. I remember reading that in the newspaper. He claimed that Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees are his best disciples. Devotee (5): They are his best devotees, but they don't know it yet. Devotee: He thinks he is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Best disciple does not know him? (laughter) And still he is best! Devotee: He is saying that someday we will realize that he is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Does anyone become disciple without knowing him? This is too much . . . then how we become best disciple without knowing him? (laughter) And these things are published. You see: people are so foolish. They have no brain to understand a sentence. He says: "They are my best disciples but they do not know me." This is very good argument? Rāmeśvara: Nonsense. But his whole movement is nonsense. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rāmeśvara: No one takes him seriously anymore. Devotee: There was a fight between his mother and his brother on one side and him on the other side. His mother says he was becoming too Westernized and wanted to take him back to India, and he said . . . because he married that Western girl. Prabhupāda: Hm. Rāmeśvara: His secretary. Devotee: And so they had a big fight. And his mother . . . his mother is actually the power behind him. She has organized everything, and the brother, the older brother. So I think they went back to India, and he remained here. But there's big disagreement . . . Prabhupāda: He did not go. Somebody said that he will be arrested. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he can't go back because he ran away. They caught him smuggling about a year and a half ago. In fact there was an enquiry about this, how did he run away. Rāmeśvara: The college students are a little afraid of us, because when they see us wearing the kurtā and dhotī , they think that that we are introducing something that is so different that they cannot relate to it. But these Maharishi Yogi people, they dress up in this Western clothes, with suit and tie. Prabhupāda: Hm. Rāmeśvara: That is why Satsvarūpa Swami and his party, they also dress up in Western clothes to distribute books to the colleges. Otherwise they are a little fearful that this is something quite . . . (break) Devotee: The first time I ever saw the devotees I was shocked. (laughter) I just stood there and looked for five minutes. Rāmeśvara: They are afraid because they think we are monks, and they do not want to be monks. They do not . . . they are not thinking how to become monks when they go to college. So when they see us, they are a little afraid. So we are distributing lots of literature on the campuses to give them the philosophy of the *Vedas* , then they will appreciate us. But just by our appearance they are afraid that we are a threat to their Western way of life, sense gratification. Prabhupāda: The Ramakrishna Mission, they also dress like that, like sannyāsī . Devotee: Only the sannyāsī generally dresses in Indian style, in the West. Prabhupāda: No, no. They came to request me in the beginning that, "This dress will not appeal to them." If you dress like Devotee: (indistinct) . . . when I was in New York they told me. Devotee: Nikhilānanda? Prabhupāda: Nikhilānanda's men came to me, one Mr. Mukhal. So he said that, "This dress will not appeal. Dress like an American gentleman." So I said that "I am prepared to dress, but where is the dress? I am poor man. I cannot purchase." (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He wanted you to wear a suit? Prabhupāda: Yes. I told him that, "If you can give me at least four nice suits, I can accept." (laughter) I can change one every alternate day. Must be nicely ironed. I know how to use this dress. In my young business life I used to have it, (laughter) but now I have no money. But since the very beginning I never dressed like . . . I mean, Kīrtanānda Mahārāja . . . the same dress as I am telling you. You are not afraid of, of this dress. Rāmeśvara: No. But to distribute our books sometimes, in order to approach people so that they will not . . . Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another thing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotees are now wearing suits and wigs and going to campuses and airports. They have already started doing that. Prabhupāda: Hm. Silk? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They wear suits . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . and wigs to go to airports and places where they don't want to be recognized. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is all right. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Going very nicely. Prabhupāda: (someone enters) Mangoes? Good mangoes are coming nowadays. Devotee (2): It is hot. Pretty good! Devotee: Every morning there is a mango feast here. Rāmeśvara: Haṁsadūta is the king. (laughter) Devotee: King of the mangoes. (laughter) Prabhupāda: "King of mangoes" means? Devotees: He eats the most. Prabhupāda: He is controlling the mango market? (laughter) *Devotee: No, Guru*-krpa controls the market. Devotee: It seems a little warm in here. Shall I open the window a little bit? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Because we dress in the dhotīs , if they do not hear our philosophy, they think we are renouncing the world completely and have nothing positive to offer them. That is why we can introduce . . . if our writers for Back to Godhead become more expert, they can . . . Prabhupāda: We are not renouncing. We are actually accepting. You are renouncing. Devotee: We are accepting the real world. *Prabhupāda: No. We are accepting the Kṛṣṇa's society, or Kṛṣṇa's association. Kṛṣṇa has got His society in Vṛndāvana. We are going to become one of the members of that society. But you are avoiding it. So you are renouncing. Our mission is back to home, back to Godhead, to enter into the society of associates of God—but you are avoiding it. You do not want. You want this temporary so*-called society, friendship and love, which will be finished within some years. That is your ignorance. This society will not stay. How long you shall remain American? You will not remain for many days. Then where is your position? You will be kicked out. However you may try to remain in this so-called society, friendship and love, you will not be allowed to stay. You will be forced to renounce. We are trying to enter into the society of Kṛṣṇa, where everything is eternal. *So which is better? Your so*-called society cannot stay here, however nicely dressed with hats and coats and boots. You will be kicked out. Then where you will go? Ask this question to them. When they say something, you also say something. Why you are silent? Silent means accepting his proposal. Somebody . . . if I say something, if I say you are a thief but if you do not protest, if you remain silent, that means you are thief. This is the conclusion. If they say something, you say also. Rāmeśvara: When we meet individual people, we can easily explain to them our philosophy. Prabhupāda: That individual or collective, it does not matter. The argument is there. Suppose you want to stay in this dress, but you will not be allowed to stay. What is your answer? You will not be allowed. So you can be kicked out at any moment. In spite of your nice dress you will be kicked out. What is your answer to that? Devotee: The medical doctors are working to extend our lifetimes longer. Prabhupāda: "In future." Then again they say same. Rāmeśvara: "There is nothing after death." They will say that . . . they do not believe in an afterlife. Prabhupāda: An afterlife, that's all right. But you cannot stay in this dress. That is a fact. You will be kicked out in spite of your intention to stay. You again stay—you will be kicked out. Then how you are so confident? Nobody wants to be kicked out, but he is kicked out. So what is that course? You may think that there is no life after death, but you want to stay in this life to the last point. Even an old man, he does not want to die, but why he is kicked out against his will? What is their answer? Nobody . . . even the pig, in so abominable condition of life, if you go to kill him he will protest, scream, "No, no, no. Don't kill me, don't kill me, don't kill me." Why this protest? Rāmeśvara: It is māyā . Devotee (3): Kṛṣṇa's māyā . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's māyā is better, but what is the answer of this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Everybody wants to live. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. But he is kicked out. Then why does he not consider what is that force, that I don't want to die, but I am obliged to die? Who is . . . what is that force? Everything finished after this. They say everything will be . . . but this force will not be finished. The force will remain. The other living entities will remain back. They will also be forced. The force is permanent. Devotee: They say it is nature. Rāmeśvara: Material nature. Prabhupāda: That nature you may call any by name, but the force is there. So above you there is a force. That is a fact. Rāmeśvara: They will admit that. Devotee: They will admit. Prabhupāda: Then so why they say that everything will be finished? The force will remain. Why do they say, rascals, that everything is finished? Devotee: They say it for themselves or . . . Prabhupāda: That is there, but others will see the force. The force will remain. Why they say that everything will be finished? What is the value of this statement? Rāmeśvara: Their false egos. They have such big false egos that they are only thinking about their selves. Prabhupāda: That is so. They have nothing—insignificant. But the force is very great. That will remain. So why do you say everything is finished? Devotee: They don't have any experience of anything that's gone out of existence. Actually, in the material world there is no experience of anything going out of existence. Matter is always transforming and changing. That energy is changing into different kinds of energy, but nothing ever goes out of existence. So their theory is that they are going to go out of existence. *Prabhupāda: Changing, changing, changing—that is going on in you also. You have changed so many bodies, and still individually you are there. Changing is going on everywhere. That is our beginning of philosophy. The yoga*-saṁyoga —you are getting one type of body, it is changing. In the process of changing, again you get another body, then that is also changing, changing. But you are there, permanently. In spite of all changes, you are there. Otherwise how you can know that my so many changes have taken place? I am there, because I am seeing the changes; therefore despite all changes I am there, the . . . (indistinct) . . . person. This is the conclusion. If you do not see changes, then what is the meaning of changes? (end) Devotee: . . . also. Prabhupāda: So, little distant, no? Devotee: It's a little distant is the only problem. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And there are several other advantages. Devotee: But I suggested that Jayatīrtha would be responsible as GBC. Prabhupāda: He was responsible. Devotee: Well, I agree. Well, I can come . . . I have never been GBC for Hawaii. Prabhupāda: No? *Devotee: I've never been GBC here. Bali*-mardana was GBC, and then after that time it was never resolved who would be GBC. But Sudāmā was here, and you told him to go direct to . . . (indistinct) . . . so I never suggested that I become the GBC, because it was . . . (indistinct) . . . more and more territory. Otherwise I would have been more concerned. (break) Prabhupāda: Anyway, do something. Nothing happening, that is not very good. Devotee (2): Now they have a responsible president . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): There is a responsible president here, who will not be so whimsical . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Hawaii was never part of the western zone; *it was always separate. Gaurasundara was here, it was separate. And then Bali*-mardana was here Rāmeśvara: No, Gaurasundara was the GBC secretary. Devotee (2): No, before his time. (indistinct conversation between devotees) (break) Prabhupāda: Don't sell the bigger one. Rāmeśvara: The question is, if it is to be distributed in India, should we insert the Sanskrit, because in India, if it does not have Sanskrit, it may not be taken as authority. Prabhupāda: No. No. That is not. Rāmeśvara: That is not necessary? Prabhupāda: No. Sanskrit is meant for the scholarly person, not for general public. And especially in the Western countries, if they see Sanskrit and the transliteration, they take it very seriously. (break) Rāmeśvara: Just as it was, without any Sanskrit or any transliteration—just the verse and the purport? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And some pictures. Rāmeśvara: And we will include pictures, in color. *Prabhupāda: I think there is no purport . . . or verse. You have no copy of Gaura*-līlā ? Rāmeśvara: Copy of the original? Abridged addition? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Yes, we have copy. Prabhupāda: So there is no verse? Devotee (2): There is verse in English. Rāmeśvara: In English. There is translation and then purport, some purport. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but no verse. There's no verse in there. The verses are not there. There is straight translation and purport. Rāmeśvara: Oh, I see, yes. Straight translation and purport. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you want me to have traveling saṅkīrtana party in India now? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) The family members are compared with the foxes and jackals. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are all a liability? Prabhupāda: No. In the forest, when you are attacked by foxes and jackals, they take away your flesh and bones. My children are like that. And the senses are compared with the—what is called—dacoits, plunderers. Actually that is a fact. The senses . . . suppose a man is born in a rich family. To take birth in rich family is due to past pious activities. So pious activities means performing sacrifices, rituals—these are pious activities. So as a result of pious activities . . . it is sounding too much. Why? How before it was not sounding? Devotee (2): We'll keep the curtain open. (break) Prabhupāda: In this bank. Devotee (2): No, no, no. That is in the German bank. Seven hundred thousand. Prabhupāda: Seven hundred thousand. Marks? Devotee: Right. Two hundred and eighty thousand dollars. Approximately. Prabhupāda: So we cannot withdraw that? Devotee (2): No. It is in a fixed deposit in a bank account, but we can't withdraw it, but there's things to show that we can be able to get it. Prabhupāda: Oh. We cannot spend it? Devotee (2): Not yet. But at least the police are not holding it any more. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Back in our . . . (indistinct) . . . in India . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So at least the money is safe now. Devotee (2): Sounds that way. But if it is in a fixed deposit, then we can also use it actually. Prabhupāda: No. Fixed deposit for month, one month, so that we are not losing the interest. Fixed deposit means there is interest. Devotee (2): Right. Rāmeśvara: Also credit from the printer. He will see that we have the money in the bank. He will give us credit again, so we can print books in Germany. Devotee (3): How's Gaurasundara? (break) Prabhupāda: If he surrenders, then there is no question of arrest. Devotee: Yes, that is what they are arranging. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee (3): He said there won't be any problems. They can arrange it. They are going to talk to the prosecuting attorneys and set up a trial date and then leave it up to him. As long as he agrees to come back for the trial date. One of the questions that he had was that he wanted to know exactly what he and Brahmānanda should do. Should they . . . he knows that you want joint management in Europe, and he wants to know whether . . . he is going to call back on Monday. He wants to find out by that time whether he and Brahmānanda should take full charge of London, Paris and Germany, or what should be done. Prabhupāda: What is Haṁsadūta's desire? Haṁsadūta: Well, I thought I would go back and go to Germany and see the situation with Brahmānanda. Prabhupāda: Yes. He has to go. So, when he has to go? Devotee (3): He said it wasn't fixed yet. But he was meant to let Haṁsadūta know as soon as it was fixed up. Prabhupāda: Until we think of the proper situation, there should be a man there. Then let Haṁsadūta go and see the situation in Germany . . . then we decide. Devotee (3): He said that Brahmānanda's willing to stay there and manage if you want him to. He said in that report that he was ready to come to Los Angeles immediately if you wanted him to stay there. Prabhupāda: That I know what I have said. First of all, let Haṁsadūta go there. Devotee (3): And then I can discuss. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, do you want me to . . . I get the impression from Paramahaṁsa that you wanted me to travel with you for some time. Prabhupāda: Yes. That I want for everyone. (pause) Prabhupāda: The tendency for becoming guru is there. But after all, every one of you should become guru . But why immature attempt? That is my question. Everyone will become guru when he is expert disciple, but why this immature attempt? Guru is not a thing, imitation. When one is mature, he becomes guru automatically. What is the answer to this, their making some attempt to become guru ? I am training you all to become guru in the future. Now the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the properties and everything, I will not take with me. They will remain where they are. It requires very mature treatment. But there has been some attempt to become guru immediately. Am I correct or not? Hm? We are also acting as guru . My other Godbrothers, they are also doing that. But we never attempted during the lifetime of our Guru Mahārāja. That is not the etiquette. It is an immature attempt. And it is not the thing that by artificial attempt one becomes guru . Guru is accepted by etiquette, not by artificial attempt. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā ( CC Madhya 7.128): "Follow My order and become guru ." Not that you become guru . Hmm? You have to follow the paramparā system, order. That is guru . Not that I declare myself as guru . No. That is not guru . Guru is he who has strictly followed the order of the spiritual master. He can become guru . Otherwise it will be spoilt. Artificial attempt is not good. (pause) *Prabhupāda: Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 8)—we are singing daily, hundred times. Guru means kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 7). Do you understand all these lines? You sing daily, thrice. Do you understand the meaning of these words? Can anyone explain? Devotee (3): Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya —"The spiritual master is very dear to Kṛṣṇa." *Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all one has to become very dear to Kṛṣṇa, then automatically he becomes guru . And when one becomes very dear to Kṛṣṇa, then he becomes guru , and by the mercy of such guru Kṛṣṇa becomes merciful. These are the statements of the śāstra. Ār nā koriho āśā . What is that, guru*-mukha-padma-vākya ? Devotee (3): *Prabhupāda: Ār nā koriho mane āśā. Simply whatever you hear from the guru , try to execute it. Ār nā koriho mane āśā. Do not expect anything more. So whatever we are chanting, we are reading, we must realize that. The Gauḍīya Maṭha institution became a failure on account of disobedience and not following the orders. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura's statement about the verse vyavasāyātmikā buddhir —find out this verse from the Bhagavad*-gītā . The Caitanya-caritāmṛta statement, āmāra : one can become guru by the superior order. Devotee (3): Shall I read it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): *"Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolved is many*-branched." Prabhupāda: And the purport? *Devotee (3): "A strong faith in Kṛṣṇa consciousness that one should be elevated to the highest perfection of life is called vyavasāyātmikā intelligence. The Caitanya*-caritāmṛta states: "Faith means unflinching trust in something sublime. When one is engaged in the duties of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he need not act in relationship to the material world, with obligations to family traditions, humanity or nationality. Fruitive activities are the engagements of one's reaction from past good or bad deeds. When one is awake in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he need no longer endeavor for good results in his activities. When one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all activities are on the absolute plane, for they are no longer subject to dualities like "good" and "bad." The highest perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is renunciation of the material conception of life. This state is automatically achieved by progressive Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The resolute purpose of a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is based on the knowledge ( vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ ) (BG 7.19) by which one comes to know perfectly that Vāsudeva, or Kṛṣṇa, is the root of all manifested causes. As water on the root of a tree is automatically distributed to the leaves and branches, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one can render the highest service to everyone—namely self, family, society, country, humanity, etc. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied by one's actions, then everyone will be satisfied." "Service in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is, however, best practiced under the able guidance of a spiritual master who is a bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa, who knows the nature of the student and who can guide him to act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As such, to be well versed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one has to act firmly and obey the representative of Kṛṣṇa, and one should accept the instructions of the bona fide spiritual master as one's mission in life. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura instructs us, in his famous prayers for the spiritual master, as follows: "By satisfaction of the spiritual master, the Supreme Personality of Godhead becomes satisfied. And by not satisfying the spiritual master, there is no chance of being promoted to the plane of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I should, therefore, meditate and pray for his mercy three times a day, and offer my respectful obeisances unto him, my spiritual master." "The whole process, however, depends on perfect knowledge of the soul beyond the conception of the body—not theoretically, but practically, when there is no longer chance for sense gratification manifested in fruitive activities. When one is not firmly fixed in mind . . . one who is not firmly fixed in mind is diverted by various types of fruitive activities." Prabhupāda: These artificial attempts to become guru is not the platform of guru . Do you all realize this now? Hm? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like this Bal Yogi Guru Mahārāja. That kind of Guru Mahārāja anyone can become; it is not very difficult. But really guru is not like that. That is evaṁ paramparā viduḥ. Evaṁ paramparā . . . eh? Devotees: Prabhupāda: Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Through the paramparā . Hmm? Imaṁ vivasvate yoga proktavān aham (BG 4.1). So the training period to attempt to become guru , that is not very good etiquette. That is artificial. At least officially during the lifetime of guru , nobody should attempt like that. The disciple should always remain as perfectly subordinate and be disciplined. Disciple means one who is being disciplined. That is disciple. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He is God, Kṛṣṇa; still He said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71): "My guru , seeing Me a fool number one, he has chastised Me." Now who can chastise Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu? But that is the way of disciplic succession. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, guru more mūrkha dekhi . Who can be guru of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and who is actually His guru who will say Caitanya Mahāprabhu is a fool? But He said that guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana : "My Guru Mahārāja found Me a fool number one, and therefore he has chastised Me." This is the position of disciple. So one who is always prepared to be chastised by guru , he is eligible to become guru . So these attempts are being done, just like Gaurasundara told that, "Why should I live under the subjugation of these people? Let me go away, to become a guru ." Similarly Sudāmā. This attempt will not be successful, but there is some attempt like that. What can be done? Such attempt will never be successful, but there are some attempts like that. (break) What is your answer? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that everybody should resolve not to do it in any form at all. I have heard similar . . . I have heard this type of complaint from other places also, where some other devotees have tried to call themselves some type of a guru . Whenever I heard that, I have been very disturbed. Devotee (2): Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is desiring to be lower than the straw in the street. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): Caitanya Mahāprabhu is desiring to be lower than the straw in the street. So for him to desire to be guru , that is not in line with Caitanya Mahāprabhu. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I am just trying to clarify—I don't want to offend anyone—but no disciple of yours should call himself dīkṣā*-guru or śikṣā-guru . Am I right? *Prabhupāda: Well, everyone is engaged to become śikṣā*-guru , but one should become perfect. The attempt is—what is called?—probationer. When probationer period is finished, then he is naturally, automatically, bona fide guru . Not in the probationer period. That is immature attempt. That will failure. Āmāra ājñāya (CC Madhya 7.128), Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "By My order." So all my disciples are expected to become śikṣā-guru on my order, not by his own order. That is meaning that I am giving sannyāsa , I am sending you to different places, so this means that you have to carry out the order of the guru very strictly; then you become mature. Otherwise it will be artificial attempt, and that kind of guru will not help. Just like there are so many guru s and avatāras and yogīs are coming. For time being there is some culture, and what is the effect? Just like this . . . what is that? Devotee: Guru Mahārāja? Prabhupāda: No, no. Guru Mahārāja is later than that. Before that? Devotees: Maharishi Yogi! Prabhupāda: So what is the effect? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No one talks of him now. Rāmeśvara: No. He is making big business. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rāmeśvara: He has made his guru into guru business, big business. His men go to the college wearing tie and suit, and they initiate the students for one hundred dollars. He is making millions of dollars by cheating, and making it into a big business. He gets one hundred dollars, and he gives them a special mantra , which is just one line of . . . *Prabhupāda: That he was giving beginning by thirty*-five dollars. Now he has made it one hundred? Devotees: Inflation! (laughter) Devotee: The cost of being a guru has gone up. (laughter) Rāmeśvara: We have one devotee named Bahulāśva, and his friend is working for this guru , this Maharishi Yogi. So he just got one letter saying that this cheating yogī , he went to Europe, and he has made millions of dollars by initiating students in the colleges there. *Devotee (3): Thirty*-five thousand people. *Rāmeśvara: He said the letter—we do not know if it is true—the letter reported that thirty*-five thousand people paid one hundred dollars to get some . . . to be cheated. Prabhupāda: So who wrote you that letter? Rāmeśvara: One friend of our devotee Bahulāśva. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The world of the cheaters and the cheated. Rāmeśvara: He is very famous, because he presents his method as very scientific. *Devotee (3): You get a million*-dollar grant from the government . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee (3): Their group got a one*-million-dollar grant from the US government, so they presented research showing how Transcendental Meditation helps one to relax. So there is a big problem in America, because everyone is very much in anxiety, and the government recognizes that, so anything that will help them relax, they think is very good. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It helps them get off drugs also. That's what the research showed. Devotee (3): Yeah, one million dollars. He is very active on the college campuses; he is making great headway there. Rāmeśvara: He is making millions of dollars just from the colleges. Devotee: Every college has got very big displays. Rāmeśvara: Posters. Posters of his Transcendental Meditation process. Devotee (3): Very professional. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in India they did some research on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Transcendental Meditation, and they found out . . . Prabhupāda: What is that Transcendental Meditation? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't know. Devotee (3): It is just a mantra . Rāmeśvara: Bahulāśva's friend told him that they are giving one line of the klīṁ gāyatrī mantra . He teaches them to chant the word klīṁ over and over again. Prabhupāda: The chanting is there. Rāmeśvara: For one hundred dollars they give you that word. Devotee (3): Do they chant silently? Rāmeśvara: They chant silently. Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that? Devotee (3): They chant for thirty times in a day for a few minutes. They chant silently this mantra . Prabhupāda: The chanting is there. So where is the difference between ours and theirs? Devotee: Theirs is not given by a bona fide guru . Devotee (4): They are also advocating meditating on void. *Rāmeśvara: The difference is that he does not give them Kṛṣṇa. He does not mention Kṛṣṇa. He tells them that they are all God. He has written a commentary on Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Then why meditation if you are God? Rāmeśvara: He is in the line of Śaṅkarācārya. He claims that he is coming from Śaṅkarācārya's disciplic succession. *Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya says, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha*-mate. Rāmeśvara: They have a story that Śaṅkarācārya was not healthy when he said that. (laughter) That is their story. Prabhupāda: God becomes unhealthy sometimes. (laughter) So what kind of God is he? If he is subjected to become unhealthy, like ordinary being, then what kind of God he is? Rāmeśvara: But the reason it is popular is because each student gets to think that he can become God. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: You don't have to take it seriously. You don't have to give up anything. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: There is no sacrifice involved, just a little money. They think it will help them develop something. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have met several people who have left him and who have realized that he is a cheat. They make the initial commitment, but after finalizing they all realize that he is a cheat. Prabhupāda: There are some like that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, many! Rāmeśvara: They do not consider him their spiritual master. The do not accept him as spiritual master. They do not surrender their life to him. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's just a business. Devotee: It is a business where they are paying money to get a mantra . They do not accept him completely as spiritual master. And he is happy that way. No responsibility. He just takes their money. Rāmeśvara: How old is he? Devotee: He is old. He cannot even enjoy anymore. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He has his own jet plane. Prabhupāda: Jet plane? Rāmeśvara: He has his own jet plane. Yet he tells the college students that if you take this process of Transcendental Meditation then you will become more intelligent, your efficiency will increase, you will be able to get better grades. When you go into the business world you will be a big success. So he is holding that out in front of them, and they are all buying it. And that is his . . . Devotee: It is compatible with sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: You use it to increase your sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Well that is very encouraging for materialistic person. If one is doing austerity, and is able to gratify your senses very nicely, then he is pleased. Devotee: It appears he has some mystic power to make everyone . . . make them believe in him. Prabhupāda: Śrīla Yes, that he has. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like that Sai Baba in India. I don't know about him but I met a lot of people who think that he is an incarnation of God. They say that he has done some mystic . . . Devotee (3): We met one fellow, he said he is Bhagavān. We said: "Bhagavān means all beauty." He said: "Yes." We said: "You call him beautiful?" (laughter) He didn't look very beautiful to me. (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About four days ago there was one devotee, Santoṣa. He is a Sanskrit editor. He was distributing books at Kennedy Airport, and one man walked up to him and said: "Hey, Kṛṣṇa is sitting in the Air India lounge!" So he went to the Air India lounge and there was an old Bengali sādhu . He did not even speak one word of English or Sanskrit. He had big beard and some ten, fifteen followers next to him, and one Indian businessman, and he was distributing chocolates to his followers. So Santoṣa went and sold him a book. Rāmeśvara: Haribol! Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They were calling him to be Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Bala Yogi also said he was Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But now his wife is suing him in the court. It was on television. Rāmeśvara: Bala Yogi's wife? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Bala Yogi is being sued by his wife in the court. I don't know. Someone told me they seen on television. And also various other people had financed him earlier, now they are filing claims against him for the money. And I read in an Indian newspaper that the city of Lucknow has filed a claim against Bala Yogi because they put up his posters all over the city, and they ruined the city property. So they filed an eleven*-thousand-rupees claim against him, and they will take them to court. Rāmeśvara: He is not considered seriously, but this other, Maharishi Yogi, they take him as an important teacher. And with all the money he has made he has purchased one university in America. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Really? Rāmeśvara: What is the name? Devotee (3): Parsons University, in Iowa. Rāmeśvara: He has purchased the whole university to teach his nonsense. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But the sincere souls realize that your movement is the only genuine movement. Prabhupāda: They say? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The sincere persons realize that your movement . . . Prabhupāda: But how many sincere persons I have got? (laughter) Devotee: All your disciples! Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even our sympathizers are advanced. Prabhupāda: Do they speak anything about our movement? It is already known. What do they speak? Rāmeśvara: They do not understand it. Prabhupāda: Hm? Rāmeśvara: They do not understand it. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? Rāmeśvara: They do not understand our movement, the purpose of it. Devotee: Balyogeshwar made one comment about our movement. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: He said that, "They are actually my best disciples." (laughter) Prabhupāda: He said? Devotee: He said that, "They love me so much, and they don't even know who I am." Rāmeśvara: Yes, he said that. I remember reading that in the newspaper. He claimed that Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees are his best disciples. Devotee (5): They are his best devotees, but they don't know it yet. Devotee: He thinks he is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Best disciple does not know him? (laughter) And still he is best! Devotee: He is saying that someday we will realize that he is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Does anyone become disciple without knowing him? This is too much . . . then how we become best disciple without knowing him? (laughter) And these things are published. You see: people are so foolish. They have no brain to understand a sentence. He says: "They are my best disciples but they do not know me." This is very good argument? Rāmeśvara: Nonsense. But his whole movement is nonsense. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rāmeśvara: No one takes him seriously anymore. Devotee: There was a fight between his mother and his brother on one side and him on the other side. His mother says he was becoming too Westernized and wanted to take him back to India, and he said . . . because he married that Western girl. Prabhupāda: Hm. Rāmeśvara: His secretary. Devotee: And so they had a big fight. And his mother . . . his mother is actually the power behind him. She has organized everything, and the brother, the older brother. So I think they went back to India, and he remained here. But there's big disagreement . . . Prabhupāda: He did not go. Somebody said that he will be arrested. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he can't go back because he ran away. They caught him smuggling about a year and a half ago. In fact there was an enquiry about this, how did he run away. Rāmeśvara: The college students are a little afraid of us, because when they see us wearing the kurtā and dhotī , they think that that we are introducing something that is so different that they cannot relate to it. But these Maharishi Yogi people, they dress up in this Western clothes, with suit and tie. Prabhupāda: Hm. Rāmeśvara: That is why Satsvarūpa Swami and his party, they also dress up in Western clothes to distribute books to the colleges. Otherwise they are a little fearful that this is something quite . . . (break) Devotee: The first time I ever saw the devotees I was shocked. (laughter) I just stood there and looked for five minutes. Rāmeśvara: They are afraid because they think we are monks, and they do not want to be monks. They do not . . . they are not thinking how to become monks when they go to college. So when they see us, they are a little afraid. So we are distributing lots of literature on the campuses to give them the philosophy of the *Vedas* , then they will appreciate us. But just by our appearance they are afraid that we are a threat to their Western way of life, sense gratification. Prabhupāda: The Ramakrishna Mission, they also dress like that, like sannyāsī . Devotee: Only the sannyāsī generally dresses in Indian style, in the West. Prabhupāda: No, no. They came to request me in the beginning that, "This dress will not appeal to them." If you dress like Devotee: (indistinct) . . . when I was in New York they told me. Devotee: Nikhilānanda? Prabhupāda: Nikhilānanda's men came to me, one Mr. Mukhal. So he said that, "This dress will not appeal. Dress like an American gentleman." So I said that "I am prepared to dress, but where is the dress? I am poor man. I cannot purchase." (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He wanted you to wear a suit? Prabhupāda: Yes. I told him that, "If you can give me at least four nice suits, I can accept." (laughter) I can change one every alternate day. Must be nicely ironed. I know how to use this dress. In my young business life I used to have it, (laughter) but now I have no money. But since the very beginning I never dressed like . . . I mean, Kīrtanānda Mahārāja . . . the same dress as I am telling you. You are not afraid of, of this dress. Rāmeśvara: No. But to distribute our books sometimes, in order to approach people so that they will not . . . Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another thing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotees are now wearing suits and wigs and going to campuses and airports. They have already started doing that. Prabhupāda: Hm. Silk? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They wear suits . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . and wigs to go to airports and places where they don't want to be recognized. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is all right. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Going very nicely. Prabhupāda: (someone enters) Mangoes? Good mangoes are coming nowadays. Devotee (2): It is hot. Pretty good! Devotee: Every morning there is a mango feast here. Rāmeśvara: Haṁsadūta is the king. (laughter) Devotee: King of the mangoes. (laughter) Prabhupāda: "King of mangoes" means? Devotees: He eats the most. Prabhupāda: He is controlling the mango market? (laughter) *Devotee: No, Guru*-krpa controls the market. Devotee: It seems a little warm in here. Shall I open the window a little bit? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Because we dress in the dhotīs , if they do not hear our philosophy, they think we are renouncing the world completely and have nothing positive to offer them. That is why we can introduce . . . if our writers for Back to Godhead become more expert, they can . . . Prabhupāda: We are not renouncing. We are actually accepting. You are renouncing. Devotee: We are accepting the real world. *Prabhupāda: No. We are accepting the Kṛṣṇa's society, or Kṛṣṇa's association. Kṛṣṇa has got His society in Vṛndāvana. We are going to become one of the members of that society. But you are avoiding it. So you are renouncing. Our mission is back to home, back to Godhead, to enter into the society of associates of God—but you are avoiding it. You do not want. You want this temporary so*-called society, friendship and love, which will be finished within some years. That is your ignorance. This society will not stay. How long you shall remain American? You will not remain for many days. Then where is your position? You will be kicked out. However you may try to remain in this so-called society, friendship and love, you will not be allowed to stay. You will be forced to renounce. We are trying to enter into the society of Kṛṣṇa, where everything is eternal. *So which is better? Your so*-called society cannot stay here, however nicely dressed with hats and coats and boots. You will be kicked out. Then where you will go? Ask this question to them. When they say something, you also say something. Why you are silent? Silent means accepting his proposal. Somebody . . . if I say something, if I say you are a thief but if you do not protest, if you remain silent, that means you are thief. This is the conclusion. If they say something, you say also. Rāmeśvara: When we meet individual people, we can easily explain to them our philosophy. Prabhupāda: That individual or collective, it does not matter. The argument is there. Suppose you want to stay in this dress, but you will not be allowed to stay. What is your answer? You will not be allowed. So you can be kicked out at any moment. In spite of your nice dress you will be kicked out. What is your answer to that? Devotee: The medical doctors are working to extend our lifetimes longer. Prabhupāda: "In future." Then again they say same. Rāmeśvara: "There is nothing after death." They will say that . . . they do not believe in an afterlife. Prabhupāda: An afterlife, that's all right. But you cannot stay in this dress. That is a fact. You will be kicked out in spite of your intention to stay. You again stay—you will be kicked out. Then how you are so confident? Nobody wants to be kicked out, but he is kicked out. So what is that course? You may think that there is no life after death, but you want to stay in this life to the last point. Even an old man, he does not want to die, but why he is kicked out against his will? What is their answer? Nobody . . . even the pig, in so abominable condition of life, if you go to kill him he will protest, scream, "No, no, no. Don't kill me, don't kill me, don't kill me." Why this protest? Rāmeśvara: It is māyā . Devotee (3): Kṛṣṇa's māyā . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's māyā is better, but what is the answer of this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Everybody wants to live. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. But he is kicked out. Then why does he not consider what is that force, that I don't want to die, but I am obliged to die? Who is . . . what is that force? Everything finished after this. They say everything will be . . . but this force will not be finished. The force will remain. The other living entities will remain back. They will also be forced. The force is permanent. Devotee: They say it is nature. Rāmeśvara: Material nature. Prabhupāda: That nature you may call any by name, but the force is there. So above you there is a force. That is a fact. Rāmeśvara: They will admit that. Devotee: They will admit. Prabhupāda: Then so why they say that everything will be finished? The force will remain. Why do they say, rascals, that everything is finished? Devotee: They say it for themselves or . . . Prabhupāda: That is there, but others will see the force. The force will remain. Why they say that everything will be finished? What is the value of this statement? Rāmeśvara: Their false egos. They have such big false egos that they are only thinking about their selves. Prabhupāda: That is so. They have nothing—insignificant. But the force is very great. That will remain. So why do you say everything is finished? Devotee: They don't have any experience of anything that's gone out of existence. Actually, in the material world there is no experience of anything going out of existence. Matter is always transforming and changing. That energy is changing into different kinds of energy, but nothing ever goes out of existence. So their theory is that they are going to go out of existence. *Prabhupāda: Changing, changing, changing—that is going on in you also. You have changed so many bodies, and still individually you are there. Changing is going on everywhere. That is our beginning of philosophy. The yoga*-saṁyoga —you are getting one type of body, it is changing. In the process of changing, again you get another body, then that is also changing, changing. But you are there, permanently. In spite of all changes, you are there. Otherwise how you can know that my so many changes have taken place? I am there, because I am seeing the changes; therefore despite all changes I am there, the . . . (indistinct) . . . person. This is the conclusion. If you do not see changes, then what is the meaning of changes? (end) (Philosophy Discussion with Hayagrīva) Hayagrīva: Well that's the end of Kierkegaard. Prabhupāda: That's all. We will continue? Hayagrīva: It's up to you. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hayagrīva: Do you want to go on to Skinner, or stop? Prabhupāda: No. Stop. Hayagrīva: Stop? Prabhupāda: Tomorrow. Hayagrīva: Tomorrow? Well tomorrow we go . . . we travel. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. How many are there? Hayagrīva: How many are left? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Volumes? Hayagrīva: I'm trying to make it as short as possible. Prabhupāda: No, we can discuss some philosophers; whether it is necessary . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you, if you think that all these advertised philosophers should be cut, therefore I . . . I am not. Hayagrīva: Well this, erm, B. F. Skinner, Śyāmasundara began him. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hayagrīva: Some people thought he's . . . think he's important. I, I personally don't. That's my personal opinion on . . . he's a behaviorist, and he tried to set up a, a community called . . . he wrote a book called Walden Two , and it became a very popular book. When communities were being set up like New Vṛindaban, in 1968, this book became popular. And it was, uh . . . I don't think much of his philosophy, but he's a behaviorist. He believes that if you can control . . . you can control people by controlling the environment in which they live. Hari Śauri: That's the same as Marx's philosophy. *Hayagrīva: Mmm*-hmm. And, er . . . Prabhupāda: That is everyone's philosophy. Everyone wants to make a group. Hari Śauri: That's what you were saying this morning. They want to control nature rather than control their own natures. Hayagrīva: He felt first you control the environment, then you can control man, instead of the other way. Do you want to deal with all of these? Prabhupāda: I do not know. *Hayagrīva: Uh*-huh. Well, in Los Angeles they gave me a big, big list of all these people. They say all these people are important. And I've deleted a number of them, and wound up with the number thirty-eight, total. And we have about . . . oh, I figure we'd finish them all by the time you leave Los Angeles. If I can meet with you daily in Los Angeles, then we could finish them. Otherwise, some could be deleted. Prabhupāda: No. They can be shortly discussed. *Hayagrīva: Mmm*-hmm. Prabhupāda: Essential point. Hayagrīva: Essential point. Hari Śauri: Otherwise you come to New Vrindavan. Hayagrīva: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari Śauri: He's trying to get them finished before we leave Los Angeles, but there's always New Vrindavan. You can discuss there also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: So the next meeting will be Wednesday evening, in Los Angeles? You arrive in Los Angeles Tuesday night, tomorrow night. If I'm not on the same plane, I'll be on the next plane. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: So I will see you Wednesday evening. I think that . . . Prabhupāda: When you are going? Which flight? Govinda dāsī: I'm planning to go standby on your flight, because I can't get reservations. And if I don't get on your flight, I'm going on the same one with Hayagrīva—the one after that. But I'm hoping to go with . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Govinda dāsī: I wanted to show you this here. Prabhupāda: What is that? Govinda dāsī: This is the stone that we were thinking of using. Prabhupāda: What? Govinda dāsī: This is the silica and concrete mix that we were thinking of using. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: It . . . it should be shiny, but it's never been . . . (indistinct) . . . but it's not shiny, but the other side's not smooth. It could be colored in different ways, and this is a quick experiment. Prabhupāda: It is completely dried? *Govinda dāsī: Erm, it hasn't quite completely dried. It's supposed to dry twenty*-four hours, and it hasn't been quite twenty-four hours. So it gets harder as it dries. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Do . . . do you like it okay? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It will be very heavy. Govinda dāsī: Yes, because it's concrete. Prabhupāda: Hm. Govinda dāsī: You'd prefer something lighter? Prabhupāda: No. Everything should be very strong. Govinda dāsī: Thank you. (pause) (break) Hari Śauri: What did he say? (end) (Philosophy Discussion with Hayagrīva) Hayagrīva: Well that's the end of Kierkegaard. Prabhupāda: That's all. We will continue? Hayagrīva: It's up to you. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hayagrīva: Do you want to go on to Skinner, or stop? Prabhupāda: No. Stop. Hayagrīva: Stop? Prabhupāda: Tomorrow. Hayagrīva: Tomorrow? Well tomorrow we go . . . we travel. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. How many are there? Hayagrīva: How many are left? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Volumes? Hayagrīva: I'm trying to make it as short as possible. Prabhupāda: No, we can discuss some philosophers; whether it is necessary . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you, if you think that all these advertised philosophers should be cut, therefore I . . . I am not. Hayagrīva: Well this, erm, B. F. Skinner, Śyāmasundara began him. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hayagrīva: Some people thought he's . . . think he's important. I, I personally don't. That's my personal opinion on . . . he's a behaviorist, and he tried to set up a, a community called . . . he wrote a book called Walden Two , and it became a very popular book. When communities were being set up like New Vṛindaban, in 1968, this book became popular. And it was, uh . . . I don't think much of his philosophy, but he's a behaviorist. He believes that if you can control . . . you can control people by controlling the environment in which they live. Hari Śauri: That's the same as Marx's philosophy. *Hayagrīva: Mmm*-hmm. And, er . . . Prabhupāda: That is everyone's philosophy. Everyone wants to make a group. Hari Śauri: That's what you were saying this morning. They want to control nature rather than control their own natures. Hayagrīva: He felt first you control the environment, then you can control man, instead of the other way. Do you want to deal with all of these? Prabhupāda: I do not know. *Hayagrīva: Uh*-huh. Well, in Los Angeles they gave me a big, big list of all these people. They say all these people are important. And I've deleted a number of them, and wound up with the number thirty-eight, total. And we have about . . . oh, I figure we'd finish them all by the time you leave Los Angeles. If I can meet with you daily in Los Angeles, then we could finish them. Otherwise, some could be deleted. Prabhupāda: No. They can be shortly discussed. *Hayagrīva: Mmm*-hmm. Prabhupāda: Essential point. Hayagrīva: Essential point. Hari Śauri: Otherwise you come to New Vrindavan. Hayagrīva: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari Śauri: He's trying to get them finished before we leave Los Angeles, but there's always New Vrindavan. You can discuss there also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: So the next meeting will be Wednesday evening, in Los Angeles? You arrive in Los Angeles Tuesday night, tomorrow night. If I'm not on the same plane, I'll be on the next plane. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: So I will see you Wednesday evening. I think that . . . Prabhupāda: When you are going? Which flight? Govinda dāsī: I'm planning to go standby on your flight, because I can't get reservations. And if I don't get on your flight, I'm going on the same one with Hayagrīva—the one after that. But I'm hoping to go with . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Govinda dāsī: I wanted to show you this here. Prabhupāda: What is that? Govinda dāsī: This is the stone that we were thinking of using. Prabhupāda: What? Govinda dāsī: This is the silica and concrete mix that we were thinking of using. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: It . . . it should be shiny, but it's never been . . . (indistinct) . . . but it's not shiny, but the other side's not smooth. It could be colored in different ways, and this is a quick experiment. Prabhupāda: It is completely dried? *Govinda dāsī: Erm, it hasn't quite completely dried. It's supposed to dry twenty*-four hours, and it hasn't been quite twenty-four hours. So it gets harder as it dries. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Do . . . do you like it okay? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It will be very heavy. Govinda dāsī: Yes, because it's concrete. Prabhupāda: Hm. Govinda dāsī: You'd prefer something lighter? Prabhupāda: No. Everything should be very strong. Govinda dāsī: Thank you. (pause) (break) Hari Śauri: What did he say? (end) Rāmeśvara: Do you want to sit on chairs or . . .? Reporter: No, this is fine. Rāmeśvara: Oh, good. Indian style. How large is the newspaper? The circulation? Reporter: 450,000. Rāmeśvara: Half a million. Reporter: Ah, Swami? What is your purpose here with your, ah . . . with the faith in seeking the growth and so on? Prabhupāda: (to Rāmeśvara) That is the purpose you can explain. Rāmeśvara: The purpose of our, of our seeking the growth is so that people all over the world can become happy again. People who are suffering due to lack of knowledge about who they are and what their relationship is with God, and as a result of that ignorance, they're performing so many activities which cause them pain and misery, so that they can become happy again. Reporter: Ah. How is . . . how will this be achieved? Prabhupāda: Misery . . . misery is caused due to ignorance. Do you admit or not? The more we are kept in darkness of knowledge, we suffer. What is the difference between ah . . . what is called? Developed nations and not developed nations. This America belonged to the Red Indians. And because they are not developed, their condition was developed, ah, different from the present America. They could not construct such big, big house, and big, big roads, and like that, because they are in ignorance. That is the difference. Prosperity, no prosperity; happiness, not happiness—they are ignorance and knowledge. Reporter: They have . . . is it that they have confused materialism with happiness? Prabhupāda: Not material, I mean, I mean to say, happiness is knowledge. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Happiness is knowledge. Man who is in ignorance, he is suffering, and that you say material and spiritually. A person who is not in developed consciousness, he is suffering. And they commit sinful acts also. Reporter: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: They commit sinful acts also in ignorance. That is the difference between man and animal. Animal means not developed consciousness. They . . . some of them, they say the animal has no soul. That is foolishness. Animal has soul, but the consciousness is not developed. Just like a child. Father's consciousness and the child's consciousness, different. Why it is different? The child's consciousness is not developed. Father's consciousness is developed. Because the child is talking some nonsense, you cannot say there is no soul. There is soul, but the consciousness is not developed. Reporter: Do you see hope for mankind in the future? Prabhupāda: Yes. Man can be happy immediately, provided the consciousness is developed. Reporter: Can . . . do you think that this will ever be achieved? Prabhupāda: Yes. It can be achieved. Just like I have sent a letter to your government asking them questions that you write on the bills, "In God We Trust." So whether you trust in God blindly or knowingly? That was my question. Suppose I trust you. So you must be trustworthy. Otherwise why shall I trust you? So this question I asked your government, "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so what kind of trust is this?" If you actually trust, then you must know that God is trustworthy. Only blindly trust as a slogan. But that letter is not in reply. So what is your opinion? "In God We Trust," so how do trust? Why you trust? This is my question. Reporter: It would be a matter of faith, I suppose. Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: It would be a matter of faith, I suppose. Prabhupāda: Faith may be different. You may have faith, I may not have faith. That is not the question. Just like in the bank you deposit some money. If some may have faith or no faith, but that bank is trustworthy. You know that your money deposited in the bank will not be cheated. Similarly, if you trust in God, then you must know whether God is trustworthy. Whether . . . what do you mean by God? This is not the question of faith. Faith is blind. It is a question of understanding. So that we want, that America specially—you are favored amongst all other nations; *you are well*-to-do, richer than other nations—so why don't you take God seriously? Why should you trust in God as faith? No. You understand what is God and have your faith at full that, "God is, yes, trustworthy," so that others may also know that God is trustworthy. That is our mission, that why God in trust? Are we trusting God should be a slogan? Let it be a fact by scientific study, by scientific understanding. There is way to understand why God is trustworthy. It's not the question of faith. It is a fact. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Just like a child had . . . has faith in his parents. So that is not an artificial thing. That is fact. And parents are trustworthy to the child—there is no doubt about it—by nature. So similarly, why could . . . you should be trust in God? Why blindly? Why not trust with knowledge? And that is our movement. Every civilized person has got some faith in God. But now they're advanced, they should understand what is God, why you must have faith in Him. That is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Reporter: It's a matter of educating . . . Prabhupāda: Simply faith, blind faith, will not endure. And therefore they are becoming godless. And gradually, if we do not understand factually what is God, then the whole human civilization will be godless. To become godless means again animal. That is the difference between animal and man. In the animal society there is no question of religion, faith, God. These things are not there. The human civilization, if it becomes like that, without any faith in God, without any understanding of God, then where is the difference between cats and dogs and human beings? They must know God scientifically. That is the actual aim of human life. Suppose the dog is sleeping on the street without any care whether a car is coming and smash it. He's also sleeping sound sleep. And we are sleeping in a very nice apartment. So after all, sleeping. And he is also enjoying sleeping, I am also enjoying sleeping. So do you think to change the, I mean to say, circumstances of the sleeping? I am sleeping in a very nice apartment, he's sleeping on the floor. Does it mean this is advancement of civilization? Sleeping is sleeping. Eating is eating. Sex life—the male dog enjoying with female dog, the sex pleasure is to him, and we are enjoying with a beautiful lover. The sex pleasure is the same. Therefore, you take some eatable, either on gold fork, or in iron fork, the taste is the same. Simply like putting the foodstuff in the golden fork, does it mean the taste has changed? So, the taste of eating, sleeping, mating and defending is the same for the human being as well as the animals. The difference . . . what is the difference between the animals and the human? The animal cannot know God. That is not possible. The human being can know. That is the opportunity of this human life. If we are missing that opportunity, then we are leading an animal civilization. This is not civilization. Animal life is not civilization. Civilized means not animal life. Something more than that. That is God consciousness. Reporter: Do you have programs developed to educate mankind towards this God consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Concrete education. Not fictitious. Concrete. Reporter: How will . . . how will you get man to become aware of the situation so he could desire—even desire unconsciously? *Prabhupāda: It is a very simple fact. If you simply understand that one verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā , there it is stated that: Very simple thing. Just like the art of the material nature. Everything is coming out of the material nature, beginning from the grass to the highest intellectual human being or more than that. Wherefrom they are coming? From this material nature, either earth, water, fire, this element, some material nature. Let us see from the ground, the grass is coming, the vegetable is coming. From the water the fishes are coming, all the ants are coming, the germs are coming. Then, after eating that vegetable, the animals are coming. In this way everything is coming, generated from the earth, from the material nature. Is it not a fact? Reporter: Mmm. Prabhupāda: So, we are coming from material nature. That means we are . . . material nature is our mother. From the womb of mother, the child comes from. So from the material nature everything is coming. Therefore according to Vedic knowledge, this earth is also mother. We have got seven mothers according to Vedic civilization: *Ātma*-mātā means original mother, real mother. And guroḥ patnī , the wife of teacher. The wife of a brāhmaṇa . . . brāhmaṇa means the most intellectual class of men in the human society, brāhmaṇa . It is not a caste; *it is a section in every human society. Always, there is a class of men very intelli . . . intelligent. They are called brāhmaṇa . So, ātma*-mātā, guroḥ patnī, brāhmaṇī, rāja-patnikā , and the queen—formerly there were kings—she is also considered mother. And dhenu means cow is mother, because we drink her milk. She supplies milk. That's mother. And pṛthvī , in the earth, we are coming out. So earth is mother. Really we see coming. And there may be different varieties of sons. That doesn't matter. But anything coming out the earth—the earth is mother—and that is coming out, that is son. Then where is the father? There must be father. Is it possible mother can give birth to a child without father? Reporter: Mm. Prabhupāda: Is it possible? Reporter: I wouldn't think so. Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: I wouldn't think so. No. *Prabhupāda: So, there must be father. This is conclusion. So who is searching about the father? The answer is in the Bhagavad*-gītā : ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4), "I am father." You cannot deny father, that is not possible. If there is mother, if there is child, there must be father. This is human sense. And animal sense is, "I don't care for father. There may be father, may not be . . ." That is animal sense. So do you want to keep the human society in such ignorance, just like cats and dogs? The dogs do not care who is father. This movement wants to give education to the human society, "Yes, there is father." And that is actual fact. Without father, how there is child? Is it possible? Then? For the present moment, the human society is child playing on the lap of mother, that's all. In big, big motorcars, that's all. Without any knowledge of father. But will the human being remain simply satisfied with toys on the lap of mother, or you'll try to understand who is father? So we are satisfied with the toys, and playing on the lap of the mother. The motorcar is running very swiftly, head-break or neck-break speed, and they are thinking they are civilized, advanced. What is . . . "Who is your father?" "Don't know." Rāmeśvara: Then "Where do you live?" Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: Where do you . . . where do . . .? Prabhupāda: But he lives on the lap of mother, that's all. That is child. Child is satisfied on the lap of the mother, that's what I am saying. He doesn't . . . the child doesn't care, "I have to know the father." But there is father, that's a fact. That means the present civilization is childish civilization, does not care to know the father. So whether the human civilization will remain child, children? They fight amongst themselves. Children, however you can . . . "My dear children, live peacefully." So for the time being they may be. Again they will fight, they will cry. That is going on. What the United Nation has done for the last forty years? They're fighting like children or animals. So you keep . . . if you keep them as child or animal, do you think there will be peace? That is not possible. It is futile attempt, the talking of big, big words for peace. That is not possible. I think in Melbourne I, in my press interview, I said if the United Nation is working. Ambarīṣa: I just came from Vancouver from the Habitat Conference. The U.N. is having a Habitat Conference in Vancouver, and believe me, it is not united. There was constant . . . there were discussions, then arguments. Sometimes there were walkouts, so many things, and they're not able to reach any conclusions. They can't agree with each other. Prabhupāda: How could they? Do you mean to say dogs simply barking, they will come to a conclusion? (chuckles) It is not possible. There is no aim, what is the actual aim of life. So this is very important movement. At least the intelligent class of men, they must understand it thoroughly. Just like there is body. There are different parts, different section of the body, but the most important section is the brain. Similarly, the important section of society means one who is fully in God consciousness. I . . . you can cut my hands, I shall live. You can cut my legs, I shall live. But if you cut my head . . . (indistinct) . . . life. So at the present moment, there are big, big scientists, big, big technologists. That's all right; that is hands and legs. But there is no brain. Therefore in one sense you can take it as dead society. So in my opinion, I like your country, America. Sometimes I call, "This is my fatherland," because these American boys, they are helping me pushing on this movement. So I am very much obliged to these boys. Now let us take it little more seriously, statewise. And if America takes it seriously, other nations will follow. As there is the United Nations Organization in America, and make a nice organization to understand God. United Nations God Consciousness. People will benefit. Reporter: Do you see America getting more God consciousness? Prabhupāda: At least I see majority of my disciples are Americans. Why not expanding? Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda? Before, Richard (the reporter) asked me a question: What is the difference between our movement and, say, another religion like the Sikhs or some other religion? Prabhupāda: Don't misunderstand. It is . . . religion means a kind of faith. Just like you are Christian, I am Hindu. So you have faith in Christian religion, I have faith in Hin . . . that is another thing. But this is . . . we understand religion in a different way according to English dictionary. But real religion means the law given by God. This is the shortcut definition of religion. And if you do not know what is God, and if you do not know what is His law, then what is the meaning of religion? There is no meaning of religion. If blindly, if I have some faith in some dogmas and ritualistic ceremonies, that is not religion. Religion means the science by which you can understand God and the law of God. That is religion. It is not a kind of faith. Just like state laws: you may have faith or no faith, the state law is law; you have to obey it. Just like I have come in America. In our country the street law is "Keep to the left." So I have come to America; you say: "Keep to the right." If I say: "No, I have no faith in this. Keep to the left . . ." No, I must obey. That is law. Similarly, religion means you may have faith or no faith, but you must obey. It is a must. It is not optional. That is religion. That, I explained it many times, that character . . . (indistinct) . . . means characteristic. Just like every one of us, we are servant. So, the living entity is servant. He may have faith or no faith, he must be a servant. And if you don't become servant of God, then you become servant of dog. That is your advancement of civilization. When there is no service for God—just like here we have got service for God; there is no question of serving dog. But when we forget service of God, then automatically we become service of dog. But service . . . I am servant, that's a fact. And voluntarily keep a dog and serve him. If I have no master, then I keep a master, dog, cat. You call it by the name "pet." What is a pet? I do service, that's all. So this is our advancement of civilization. We have refused to serve God, and you voluntarily accept to serve dog. Now in India, they are also learning. (chuckles) And formerly, dog keeping, dog there was in the neighborhood, but they were not allowed to enter the room or house. Now they are keeping dogs just like the Western people keep. They are making dog show and so on, so on. Rāmeśvara: Dog show. Prabhupāda: They are learning how to serve the dog. And they are giving up God. Ambarīṣa: Yeah, there are a lot of people here that worship their pets. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambarīṣa: Yes. Rāmeśvara: The Russians served Lenin. Prabhupāda: They are imitating. You understand people are very expert in this subject matter. They have come . . . learning everything. Devotee (1): We can't avoid serving. Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Ambarīṣa: That's all there is in life, is service. *Prabhupāda: Now we are sitting, so many gentlemen. He's serving some paper, he's serving some paper, and you are serving God. The service is there. Nobody can say: "No, I don't serve anyone." Is there any man? No. That is not possible. You must serve. Constitutionally, you are meant for service, either you are president of the state or this anything. That is your position. That is the beginning of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108). All living entities are eternal servant of God. Reporter: And all service is the same? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: All service is the same. Devotee (1): No. He says, "All service is the same." Prabhupāda: How can it be? All service is the same? Do you think . . . Reporter: Everybody serves in their own way, but it's all . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . unless you come to the service of God, it is wrong. Devotee (2): I think he's asking, "But if it is service to God, then in God's eyes, all service to Him." Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Right. Prabhupāda: Yes. God, service to God means, just like you put foodstuff in the stomach, then the service, supplying energy, is distributed automatically. The eyes get service, the ears get service, the hands get service, legs get service—everything. But if you put foodstuff in the eyes, instead of giving service, you make it blind. If you put foodstuff in the ear, instead of hearing, it is blocked. Then that is ignorance. You do not know where to give service. So the knowledge, God consciousness, means to know where to give service so that the service will be automatically distributed. You pour water on the root of the tree and the energy will be distributed to the trunk, to the branches, to the twigs, to the leaves, to the flowers, everyone. But we are missing their point. This is scientific. So instead of giving service in so many ways—social, political, philosophical, cultural, this way, that way—if you simply learn how to serve God, then everything will be done. So that is our philosophy, and we are laboring for this purpose, that you understand God and give service to Him, then the whole society will be perfect, peaceful. Reporter: I have no more questions. Rāmeśvara: No questions about the Society. Devotee (1): You asked earlier about our program for educating society. Are you still interested in this? Prabhupāda: This education is all explained. Devotee (2): I think he was interested also in the techniques by which we go about educating society. We have some techniques which . . . Prabhupāda: Technical knowledge is not education. Devotee (2): No, but I mean, as far as our books are . . . we have our techniques for educating society. Prabhupāda: Oh. Rāmeśvara: Our program is to distribute the books of the *Vedas* with our spiritual master's philosophical commentaries. We already discussed a little bit before we came. *Prabhupāda: And all this subject matter, everything, sixty*-two books already. Rāmeśvara: Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (2): Jaya! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Rāmeśvara: Do you want to sit on chairs or . . .? Reporter: No, this is fine. Rāmeśvara: Oh, good. Indian style. How large is the newspaper? The circulation? Reporter: 450,000. Rāmeśvara: Half a million. Reporter: Ah, Swami? What is your purpose here with your, ah . . . with the faith in seeking the growth and so on? Prabhupāda: (to Rāmeśvara) That is the purpose you can explain. Rāmeśvara: The purpose of our, of our seeking the growth is so that people all over the world can become happy again. People who are suffering due to lack of knowledge about who they are and what their relationship is with God, and as a result of that ignorance, they're performing so many activities which cause them pain and misery, so that they can become happy again. Reporter: Ah. How is . . . how will this be achieved? Prabhupāda: Misery . . . misery is caused due to ignorance. Do you admit or not? The more we are kept in darkness of knowledge, we suffer. What is the difference between ah . . . what is called? Developed nations and not developed nations. This America belonged to the Red Indians. And because they are not developed, their condition was developed, ah, different from the present America. They could not construct such big, big house, and big, big roads, and like that, because they are in ignorance. That is the difference. Prosperity, no prosperity; happiness, not happiness—they are ignorance and knowledge. Reporter: They have . . . is it that they have confused materialism with happiness? Prabhupāda: Not material, I mean, I mean to say, happiness is knowledge. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Happiness is knowledge. Man who is in ignorance, he is suffering, and that you say material and spiritually. A person who is not in developed consciousness, he is suffering. And they commit sinful acts also. Reporter: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: They commit sinful acts also in ignorance. That is the difference between man and animal. Animal means not developed consciousness. They . . . some of them, they say the animal has no soul. That is foolishness. Animal has soul, but the consciousness is not developed. Just like a child. Father's consciousness and the child's consciousness, different. Why it is different? The child's consciousness is not developed. Father's consciousness is developed. Because the child is talking some nonsense, you cannot say there is no soul. There is soul, but the consciousness is not developed. Reporter: Do you see hope for mankind in the future? Prabhupāda: Yes. Man can be happy immediately, provided the consciousness is developed. Reporter: Can . . . do you think that this will ever be achieved? Prabhupāda: Yes. It can be achieved. Just like I have sent a letter to your government asking them questions that you write on the bills, "In God We Trust." So whether you trust in God blindly or knowingly? That was my question. Suppose I trust you. So you must be trustworthy. Otherwise why shall I trust you? So this question I asked your government, "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so what kind of trust is this?" If you actually trust, then you must know that God is trustworthy. Only blindly trust as a slogan. But that letter is not in reply. So what is your opinion? "In God We Trust," so how do trust? Why you trust? This is my question. Reporter: It would be a matter of faith, I suppose. Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: It would be a matter of faith, I suppose. Prabhupāda: Faith may be different. You may have faith, I may not have faith. That is not the question. Just like in the bank you deposit some money. If some may have faith or no faith, but that bank is trustworthy. You know that your money deposited in the bank will not be cheated. Similarly, if you trust in God, then you must know whether God is trustworthy. Whether . . . what do you mean by God? This is not the question of faith. Faith is blind. It is a question of understanding. So that we want, that America specially—you are favored amongst all other nations; *you are well*-to-do, richer than other nations—so why don't you take God seriously? Why should you trust in God as faith? No. You understand what is God and have your faith at full that, "God is, yes, trustworthy," so that others may also know that God is trustworthy. That is our mission, that why God in trust? Are we trusting God should be a slogan? Let it be a fact by scientific study, by scientific understanding. There is way to understand why God is trustworthy. It's not the question of faith. It is a fact. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Just like a child had . . . has faith in his parents. So that is not an artificial thing. That is fact. And parents are trustworthy to the child—there is no doubt about it—by nature. So similarly, why could . . . you should be trust in God? Why blindly? Why not trust with knowledge? And that is our movement. Every civilized person has got some faith in God. But now they're advanced, they should understand what is God, why you must have faith in Him. That is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Reporter: It's a matter of educating . . . Prabhupāda: Simply faith, blind faith, will not endure. And therefore they are becoming godless. And gradually, if we do not understand factually what is God, then the whole human civilization will be godless. To become godless means again animal. That is the difference between animal and man. In the animal society there is no question of religion, faith, God. These things are not there. The human civilization, if it becomes like that, without any faith in God, without any understanding of God, then where is the difference between cats and dogs and human beings? They must know God scientifically. That is the actual aim of human life. Suppose the dog is sleeping on the street without any care whether a car is coming and smash it. He's also sleeping sound sleep. And we are sleeping in a very nice apartment. So after all, sleeping. And he is also enjoying sleeping, I am also enjoying sleeping. So do you think to change the, I mean to say, circumstances of the sleeping? I am sleeping in a very nice apartment, he's sleeping on the floor. Does it mean this is advancement of civilization? Sleeping is sleeping. Eating is eating. Sex life—the male dog enjoying with female dog, the sex pleasure is to him, and we are enjoying with a beautiful lover. The sex pleasure is the same. Therefore, you take some eatable, either on gold fork, or in iron fork, the taste is the same. Simply like putting the foodstuff in the golden fork, does it mean the taste has changed? So, the taste of eating, sleeping, mating and defending is the same for the human being as well as the animals. The difference . . . what is the difference between the animals and the human? The animal cannot know God. That is not possible. The human being can know. That is the opportunity of this human life. If we are missing that opportunity, then we are leading an animal civilization. This is not civilization. Animal life is not civilization. Civilized means not animal life. Something more than that. That is God consciousness. Reporter: Do you have programs developed to educate mankind towards this God consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Concrete education. Not fictitious. Concrete. Reporter: How will . . . how will you get man to become aware of the situation so he could desire—even desire unconsciously? *Prabhupāda: It is a very simple fact. If you simply understand that one verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā , there it is stated that: Very simple thing. Just like the art of the material nature. Everything is coming out of the material nature, beginning from the grass to the highest intellectual human being or more than that. Wherefrom they are coming? From this material nature, either earth, water, fire, this element, some material nature. Let us see from the ground, the grass is coming, the vegetable is coming. From the water the fishes are coming, all the ants are coming, the germs are coming. Then, after eating that vegetable, the animals are coming. In this way everything is coming, generated from the earth, from the material nature. Is it not a fact? Reporter: Mmm. Prabhupāda: So, we are coming from material nature. That means we are . . . material nature is our mother. From the womb of mother, the child comes from. So from the material nature everything is coming. Therefore according to Vedic knowledge, this earth is also mother. We have got seven mothers according to Vedic civilization: *Ātma*-mātā means original mother, real mother. And guroḥ patnī , the wife of teacher. The wife of a brāhmaṇa . . . brāhmaṇa means the most intellectual class of men in the human society, brāhmaṇa . It is not a caste; *it is a section in every human society. Always, there is a class of men very intelli . . . intelligent. They are called brāhmaṇa . So, ātma*-mātā, guroḥ patnī, brāhmaṇī, rāja-patnikā , and the queen—formerly there were kings—she is also considered mother. And dhenu means cow is mother, because we drink her milk. She supplies milk. That's mother. And pṛthvī , in the earth, we are coming out. So earth is mother. Really we see coming. And there may be different varieties of sons. That doesn't matter. But anything coming out the earth—the earth is mother—and that is coming out, that is son. Then where is the father? There must be father. Is it possible mother can give birth to a child without father? Reporter: Mm. Prabhupāda: Is it possible? Reporter: I wouldn't think so. Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: I wouldn't think so. No. *Prabhupāda: So, there must be father. This is conclusion. So who is searching about the father? The answer is in the Bhagavad*-gītā : ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4), "I am father." You cannot deny father, that is not possible. If there is mother, if there is child, there must be father. This is human sense. And animal sense is, "I don't care for father. There may be father, may not be . . ." That is animal sense. So do you want to keep the human society in such ignorance, just like cats and dogs? The dogs do not care who is father. This movement wants to give education to the human society, "Yes, there is father." And that is actual fact. Without father, how there is child? Is it possible? Then? For the present moment, the human society is child playing on the lap of mother, that's all. In big, big motorcars, that's all. Without any knowledge of father. But will the human being remain simply satisfied with toys on the lap of mother, or you'll try to understand who is father? So we are satisfied with the toys, and playing on the lap of the mother. The motorcar is running very swiftly, head-break or neck-break speed, and they are thinking they are civilized, advanced. What is . . . "Who is your father?" "Don't know." Rāmeśvara: Then "Where do you live?" Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: Where do you . . . where do . . .? Prabhupāda: But he lives on the lap of mother, that's all. That is child. Child is satisfied on the lap of the mother, that's what I am saying. He doesn't . . . the child doesn't care, "I have to know the father." But there is father, that's a fact. That means the present civilization is childish civilization, does not care to know the father. So whether the human civilization will remain child, children? They fight amongst themselves. Children, however you can . . . "My dear children, live peacefully." So for the time being they may be. Again they will fight, they will cry. That is going on. What the United Nation has done for the last forty years? They're fighting like children or animals. So you keep . . . if you keep them as child or animal, do you think there will be peace? That is not possible. It is futile attempt, the talking of big, big words for peace. That is not possible. I think in Melbourne I, in my press interview, I said if the United Nation is working. Ambarīṣa: I just came from Vancouver from the Habitat Conference. The U.N. is having a Habitat Conference in Vancouver, and believe me, it is not united. There was constant . . . there were discussions, then arguments. Sometimes there were walkouts, so many things, and they're not able to reach any conclusions. They can't agree with each other. Prabhupāda: How could they? Do you mean to say dogs simply barking, they will come to a conclusion? (chuckles) It is not possible. There is no aim, what is the actual aim of life. So this is very important movement. At least the intelligent class of men, they must understand it thoroughly. Just like there is body. There are different parts, different section of the body, but the most important section is the brain. Similarly, the important section of society means one who is fully in God consciousness. I . . . you can cut my hands, I shall live. You can cut my legs, I shall live. But if you cut my head . . . (indistinct) . . . life. So at the present moment, there are big, big scientists, big, big technologists. That's all right; that is hands and legs. But there is no brain. Therefore in one sense you can take it as dead society. So in my opinion, I like your country, America. Sometimes I call, "This is my fatherland," because these American boys, they are helping me pushing on this movement. So I am very much obliged to these boys. Now let us take it little more seriously, statewise. And if America takes it seriously, other nations will follow. As there is the United Nations Organization in America, and make a nice organization to understand God. United Nations God Consciousness. People will benefit. Reporter: Do you see America getting more God consciousness? Prabhupāda: At least I see majority of my disciples are Americans. Why not expanding? Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda? Before, Richard (the reporter) asked me a question: What is the difference between our movement and, say, another religion like the Sikhs or some other religion? Prabhupāda: Don't misunderstand. It is . . . religion means a kind of faith. Just like you are Christian, I am Hindu. So you have faith in Christian religion, I have faith in Hin . . . that is another thing. But this is . . . we understand religion in a different way according to English dictionary. But real religion means the law given by God. This is the shortcut definition of religion. And if you do not know what is God, and if you do not know what is His law, then what is the meaning of religion? There is no meaning of religion. If blindly, if I have some faith in some dogmas and ritualistic ceremonies, that is not religion. Religion means the science by which you can understand God and the law of God. That is religion. It is not a kind of faith. Just like state laws: you may have faith or no faith, the state law is law; you have to obey it. Just like I have come in America. In our country the street law is "Keep to the left." So I have come to America; you say: "Keep to the right." If I say: "No, I have no faith in this. Keep to the left . . ." No, I must obey. That is law. Similarly, religion means you may have faith or no faith, but you must obey. It is a must. It is not optional. That is religion. That, I explained it many times, that character . . . (indistinct) . . . means characteristic. Just like every one of us, we are servant. So, the living entity is servant. He may have faith or no faith, he must be a servant. And if you don't become servant of God, then you become servant of dog. That is your advancement of civilization. When there is no service for God—just like here we have got service for God; there is no question of serving dog. But when we forget service of God, then automatically we become service of dog. But service . . . I am servant, that's a fact. And voluntarily keep a dog and serve him. If I have no master, then I keep a master, dog, cat. You call it by the name "pet." What is a pet? I do service, that's all. So this is our advancement of civilization. We have refused to serve God, and you voluntarily accept to serve dog. Now in India, they are also learning. (chuckles) And formerly, dog keeping, dog there was in the neighborhood, but they were not allowed to enter the room or house. Now they are keeping dogs just like the Western people keep. They are making dog show and so on, so on. Rāmeśvara: Dog show. Prabhupāda: They are learning how to serve the dog. And they are giving up God. Ambarīṣa: Yeah, there are a lot of people here that worship their pets. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambarīṣa: Yes. Rāmeśvara: The Russians served Lenin. Prabhupāda: They are imitating. You understand people are very expert in this subject matter. They have come . . . learning everything. Devotee (1): We can't avoid serving. Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Ambarīṣa: That's all there is in life, is service. *Prabhupāda: Now we are sitting, so many gentlemen. He's serving some paper, he's serving some paper, and you are serving God. The service is there. Nobody can say: "No, I don't serve anyone." Is there any man? No. That is not possible. You must serve. Constitutionally, you are meant for service, either you are president of the state or this anything. That is your position. That is the beginning of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108). All living entities are eternal servant of God. Reporter: And all service is the same? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: All service is the same. Devotee (1): No. He says, "All service is the same." Prabhupāda: How can it be? All service is the same? Do you think . . . Reporter: Everybody serves in their own way, but it's all . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . unless you come to the service of God, it is wrong. Devotee (2): I think he's asking, "But if it is service to God, then in God's eyes, all service to Him." Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Right. Prabhupāda: Yes. God, service to God means, just like you put foodstuff in the stomach, then the service, supplying energy, is distributed automatically. The eyes get service, the ears get service, the hands get service, legs get service—everything. But if you put foodstuff in the eyes, instead of giving service, you make it blind. If you put foodstuff in the ear, instead of hearing, it is blocked. Then that is ignorance. You do not know where to give service. So the knowledge, God consciousness, means to know where to give service so that the service will be automatically distributed. You pour water on the root of the tree and the energy will be distributed to the trunk, to the branches, to the twigs, to the leaves, to the flowers, everyone. But we are missing their point. This is scientific. So instead of giving service in so many ways—social, political, philosophical, cultural, this way, that way—if you simply learn how to serve God, then everything will be done. So that is our philosophy, and we are laboring for this purpose, that you understand God and give service to Him, then the whole society will be perfect, peaceful. Reporter: I have no more questions. Rāmeśvara: No questions about the Society. Devotee (1): You asked earlier about our program for educating society. Are you still interested in this? Prabhupāda: This education is all explained. Devotee (2): I think he was interested also in the techniques by which we go about educating society. We have some techniques which . . . Prabhupāda: Technical knowledge is not education. Devotee (2): No, but I mean, as far as our books are . . . we have our techniques for educating society. Prabhupāda: Oh. Rāmeśvara: Our program is to distribute the books of the *Vedas* with our spiritual master's philosophical commentaries. We already discussed a little bit before we came. *Prabhupāda: And all this subject matter, everything, sixty*-two books already. Rāmeśvara: Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (2): Jaya! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Reporter: I wonder if you can tell me a little bit about your routine. I understand that you only sleep about two or three hours a day. And do you usually sleep during the middle of the daytime as well? Prabhupāda: Yes. Daytime I sleep two hours, and night also two hours. Reporter: Ah! Two hours at night also. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Reporter: Does it . . .? Is it more difficult to do this when you're traveling a lot? Prabhupāda: No. I . . . my work is going on. By traveling also, I carry this machine, Dictate . . . dictaphone. I dictate, and then my assistants, they write, transcribe, and then it is . . . it goes to the Press. In this way my work is going on. (sounds coming from outside) Reporter: I'd like to ask one . . . is your role in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the United States particularly or worldwide? Ten years ago, when you first came to the United States, did you take a very active role in the organization, and I'm wondering whether you do much of that now? Prabhupāda: No, although the volume of work has incr . . . (break) . . . a hundred times, but these American disciples, they are helping me, so I haven't got to work personally so much. I simply give the instruction and they carry out. But the work has increased voluminously, there's no doubt about it. I came here alone in 1965 without any help practically. Where to live, where to sleep, there was no destination. Sometimes some friend's house, sometimes some friend's house, practically loitering on the street. And in this way were passed more than one year. I arrived here in 1965 in September, end of September, 17th of September, in Boston. Hmm. Is it Boston? Devotee (1): Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, in Boston, I stayed on the sea, on the only, but I saw the Boston city. Then I was brought to New York. So I had one friend in Butler, Pennsylvania. Hmm. After my arrival, I was received by some representative of my host. So he took me to Butler, and there I stayed for twenty days. Then I came to New York. (break) . . . one introductory letter to one Dr. Mishra. So that is the beginning of my life in New York. Then struggling. Then gradually, when these boys came to me, I got some relief. And in this way we are propagating, opening branches, and the movement is going forward. Reporter: Are there many decisions that people ask you to make, about whether the movement should do this, or should do that, or do they bother you of that now, or are you just busy writing and translating? *Prabhupāda: No, we do not accept any—what is called?—defective suggestion. We do not accept. We have got our program. This program is coming directly from Kṛṣṇa. The Bhagavad*-gītā is there. Reporter: Okay. Prabhupāda: So we are simply giving a practical set of the instruction of *Gītā* . This is our business. We don't manufacture any imaginative thing. Rāmeśvara: His idea . . . his question, Prabhupāda, is also, suppose someone wants to buy a farm or wants to do some new project. Do they ask your permission first? Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole Society is going on under my direction. Whatever they do, they take my permission and they put into action. Nothing is allowed without my permission. *Reporter: I wonder if you might have any opinions on some of the leaders of cults and groups in the United States, such as the Divine Light Mission, or the T.M. and so forth. I'm wondering if you have any opinions on Guru Maharaj*-ji or Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. *Prabhupāda: There are different groups. I know that. But I do not go in detail to understand them. But our . . . we have got a crucial test, that anyone who is . . . does not know about Kṛṣṇa, he is put into four different types of categories, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . One category is that he is sinful. Another category is that he is rascal. Another category is that he's lowest of the mankind. And another category is that his so-called knowledge is taken away by illusory energy. So this is our test. That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā , that: Anyone who is not talking about God, he is either of these group: sinful, rascal, lowest of the mankind, and knowledge taken away by illusion. This is our conclusion, and that's a fact. Because a person who does not know about God, what he is? He is animal. The animal has no knowledge about God. But a human being, if he poses himself to be very learned, then he must have knowledge about God; otherwise what is his knowledge? Reporter: Do you have any opinion about Ted Patrick, who I guess you've probably heard of? Prabhupāda: I, I do not care to read these persons. But I have no business, because we are strictly following Kṛṣṇa. Our signboard is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So anyone who does not know anything about Kṛṣṇa, we reject him immediately. That's all. Simple business. Reporter: Is the only way to know Kṛṣṇa through the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. If you want to know me, then you must know about me from me. You can not speculate about me. If you speculate that, "Swāmījī is so rich," or "Swāmī might have so much bank balance also," or "He may be so . . ." This is all speculation. But when I say that my bank balance is such and such, that is right knowledge. Reporter: I didn't understand you. Prabhupāda: That suppose if you are speculating what may be the Swāmījī's strength of bank balance. So how you can know it by speculation? But if I say that my bank balance is such and such, than you can understand what is bank balance. So by speculative knowledge you cannot understand God. When God says what He is, then you can understand. Reporter: Do you feel also that if someone read the Bhagava . . .? I can't pronounce it . . . *Rāmeśvara: Bhagavad*-gītā . *Reporter: . . . Bhagavad*-gītā and other books, that a person merely by reading these could attain knowledge of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Reporter: Would that person have to have contact with you and learn from you also? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is explained; *there is no difficulty. But if there is difficulty to understand, then we have to approach a person who has understood Bhagavad*-gītā . Otherwise the language is very plain; there is no difficulty. Unfortunately, they bring their own interpretation and spoil the whole thing. Reporter: Um . . . *Prabhupāda: Otherwise where is the difficulty? Just like the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: *The beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā is the battlefield, and the battlefield is called Kurukṣetra. So Kurukṣetra is still there in India, but these so-called learned scholars, politicians, they're squeezing out some meaning out of Kurukṣetra. What is the necessity? Kurukṣetra is a place where actually, historically the battle took place. (Reporter changes cassette of tape recorder) (break) Rāmeśvara: . . . culture Prabhupāda: Yes. Attentive. Reporter: You don't see any slowing down of the impact of . . . Prabhupāda: No. It can be slowed down unless we spoil it. Reporter: Is there anyone who is designated to succeed you as the primary teacher of the movement? Prabhupāda: I am training some, I mean to say, advanced students so that they may be very easily take up the charge. I have made them GBC. They are under my direct training, and I think they will be able to conduct this movement. Reporter: Do you expect to name one person as your successor, or have you already? Prabhupāda: That I am not contemplating now. But there is no need of one person. As other things are managed, but by committee, so this can also be managed, and the committee may elect one person as chief. As, just like in the democracy there are senators and there is president, so it may be I may nominate or they can nominate. Reporter: Do you feel are you in good health now? You look it. Prabhupāda: Yes. After all, of course I am eighty, eighty years old. And I complete eighty years next September. So the age is there, although I am feeling not aged by . . . the effect of age must be there. Reporter: I didn't understand that. Rāmeśvara: He says although . . . Prabhupāda says although he's not feeling aged, the effect of age is there. Reporter: When I interviewed you perhaps five or six years ago, it was before there were reports of the astronauts landing on the moon, and I asked you at that time if you thought . . . what you thought about it, and you said that, as I recall, that they would not be able to land or explore, because spirits or creatures that lived on the moon would not allow it. The reports of course said that indeed people did land and explore and return safely. I understand you have further thoughts about that (laughter) and you've even written a lot about it. I wonder if you could tell me, not at great length perhaps, but what your belief about those events is. *Prabhupāda: Yes. From the . . . that question I was discussing the other day. In the common sense, question, that all over the world, they accept Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, in this way Saturday last. So why these arrangement, Sunday first and Monday second? And nobody could reply it. But as a layman I can conclude that sun planet is first and the moon planet is next. So if you cannot go to the sun planet, which is ninety*-three million miles away, how you can go to the moon planet within four days? Nobody could answer me. Can you answer? Reporter: Well, I don't think it's worth the answer now, but I'm wondering what your response is. *Prabhupāda: But this is the arrangement all over the world. Sunday first, Monday second, then Tuesday. So sun, moon, Mars, Jupiter, in this way. Last Saturn. This is the arrangement of the planets. So if this is the arrangement of the planets, moon*-day next to . . . moon next to sun, and if you cannot go to the sun, how can you go to the moon? Reporter: Do you, in other words, do you believe that astronauts landed somewhere? *Prabhupāda: That is next question. First of all, whether you actually went to the moon, that is the first question. You have to conclude that you did not, because the sun planet is first, the moon planet is second. You cannot go to the sun planet, ninety*-three millions of miles, how can you go to the moon planet? Reporter: Well, except that . . . Prabhupāda: According to our śāstra , the moon planet is above the sun planet, and the distance is 1,600,000 miles. So accepting that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away, then you add another 1,600,000, almost 2,000,000, it becomes 15,000,000 miles away. So if you go at the speed of 18,000 miles per hour, it takes more than 6 months. So how you go there in 4 days? And you advertise in the paper: "Now they have reached," after 4 days. Rāmeśvara: They don't accept that the moon is further away. Prabhupāda: They don't accept, that is another thing, but we have got this information. How we can accept it? Reporter: I didn't understand that last. Rāmeśvara: I said to Prabhupāda that the modern man believes that the moon is closer, but Prabhupāda said: "But our ancient literatures teach that the moon is further away. So since we have that information, how can we accept the version of the modern scientists?" Reporter: Hmm. Hmm. Rāmeśvara: We've got . . . Prabhupāda: Not only that. Why this arrangement that Monday and . . . Sunday first, Monday second? Reporter: Well, that doesn't necessarily speak of distance. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Reporter: It doesn't necessarily speak of distance. Prabhupāda: That . . . distance may not be, but you have to accept the sun planet first, moon planet next. Reporter: Er . . . Prabhupāda: Distance is not the question. Reporter: Okay. Prabhupāda: Why this arrangement: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday? There is some system. The system is, just like first, second, third, fourth. So it is naturally concluded the moon planet is next to the sun planet. Reporter: Do you feel—maybe you answered this, but I didn't understand the answer—do you feel that astronauts did land somewhere, but it was some other planet? Prabhupāda: That may be. Or it may not be also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about that sometimes people ask us what about the pictures of man on the moon? Rāmeśvara: They show man in a spacesuit walking on some other planet. Prabhupāda: That is also, what is called, argumentative. Somebody says it is laboratory arrangement. Reporter: Hmm. Laboratory. Prabhupāda: Of course, we do not go into the details of this. My question is that why Sunday first and Monday second? Nobody can apli . . . replies. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda once also argued that the dust, the dirt that they brought back, it did not reflect any light, but the moon is always reflecting light. So it was a different substance than what must be on the moon surface. Prabhupāda: Now, according to our Vedic scripture, moon is one of the heavenly planets. Reporter: Are there any other Vedic scriptures that you believe speak to a situation that is greatly misunderstood today besides this? Prabhupāda: No. Vedic understanding means there is no different Vedic version. Reporter: But do people . . . say another example where what you hold is very different from what the rest of society holds, is there something else that would be . . . Prabhupāda: No. Why . . . Rāmeśvara: No, he means, Prabhupāda, that just like modern man is thinking that they went to the moon, and our Vedic scripture says they didn't, so he's asking are there any other controversies, just like reincarnation, transmigration . . . Prabhupāda: No, so far Vedic students are concerned, there are no controversies. Rāmeśvara: But from what the modern man believes there may be some differences. Prabhupāda: Modern man believes, that's all right, but . . . Rāmeśvara: That's what his question is. *Prabhupāda: Our, our basic knowledge is on the Vedic principle, that whatever . . . just like we are explaining now, veda*-vihito dharmaḥ . We have to understand everything from the Vedas , from this Vedic knowledge. So anything which does not speak accor . . . in terms of the Vedic formula, we do not accept such knowledge as valid. Reporter: Okay. Prabhupāda: But practically you are seeing that. But . . . Reporter: Would you accept conclusions from science that . . . only if it agreed with the Vedic scriptures? Prabhupāda: First of all is that . . . as you say science, what do you mean by science? Can you explain? Reporter: Well, what the . . . the best conclusions of the best people in science. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right, but what is the best conclusion? Reporter: Well, rely on their opinions. Prabhupāda: That is opinion. The opinion is changing. How you can rely? That is not fixed up. So what is this opinion? What is the value of this opinion? Reporter: Well . . . Prabhupāda: You give some opinion, and after some years you change it. So what is the . . . how can I rely on your opinion? Reporter: Would Darwin's theory of evolution and other evolutionary theories . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, if it is being changed every year or every ten years, then what is the value of this opinion? There is no value. Reporter: Well, but religious thought in India has changed over the years too. Prabhupāda: No. Nothing. We do not change. Just like your Bhagav . . . Reporter: Well, others . . . Prabhupāda: Bhagav . . . Reporter: Others change. *Prabhupāda: Ah, others may deviate, that is another thing. But the system is not that. You cannot deviate from the Vedic injunction, that if you have to follow the ācāryas , just like India is obeying. The mass population or the sane population, they are following the ācāryas . ācāryas means great teachers, bona fide teachers—perhaps you have heard their name—just like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. So they are followed, and they are of the same opinion. Millions of years ago, what was the opinion, and that opinion is still there. Ācchā , take for Bhagavad*-gītā . And that is . . . not a single Indian who does not accept Bhagavad-gītā as authority. This is besides the foreigners who also take interest so much in Bhagavad-gītā . So far Indians are concerned, even some of the Muhammadans. So apart from Muhammadans, those who are claiming as Hindu, they all accept the authority of Bhagavad-gītā . So this Bhagavad-gītā , they might have changed, but that is not acceptable. Reporter: I think I covered most questions that I wanted to in the interview. Did you say that somebody would be transcribing? Rāmeśvara: Yes, I'm going to arrange to have it transcribed. Reporter: Because there are a lot of things that I couldn't catch, just because I'm not atuned to hearing you, so a lot of words I did not understand. But . . . Rāmeśvara: I'll arrange for that. Reporter: Okay. Rāmeśvara: You'll get it tomorrow. Reporter: Oh, I enjoyed it very much. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (break) Rāmeśvara: Just like there is this one point that the scientists say something which everyone in the world believes, but you are saying something different. So he was very interested . . . Prabhupāda: No. I . . . I . . . Reporter: Well the Vedic scriptures say that. Rāmeśvara: Yes, the Vedic scriptures . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: . . . say something different. Prabhupāda: The thing is, that is practical. That scientifics statement given today, and after few days it is changed. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then if I say: "What is the value of such statement if you change it?" That is my point. And so far Vedic injunctions are there, you don't change. What was given millions of years ago, that we carry. Reporter: Thank you very much. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Reporter: I wonder if you can tell me a little bit about your routine. I understand that you only sleep about two or three hours a day. And do you usually sleep during the middle of the daytime as well? Prabhupāda: Yes. Daytime I sleep two hours, and night also two hours. Reporter: Ah! Two hours at night also. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Reporter: Does it . . .? Is it more difficult to do this when you're traveling a lot? Prabhupāda: No. I . . . my work is going on. By traveling also, I carry this machine, Dictate . . . dictaphone. I dictate, and then my assistants, they write, transcribe, and then it is . . . it goes to the Press. In this way my work is going on. (sounds coming from outside) Reporter: I'd like to ask one . . . is your role in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the United States particularly or worldwide? Ten years ago, when you first came to the United States, did you take a very active role in the organization, and I'm wondering whether you do much of that now? Prabhupāda: No, although the volume of work has incr . . . (break) . . . a hundred times, but these American disciples, they are helping me, so I haven't got to work personally so much. I simply give the instruction and they carry out. But the work has increased voluminously, there's no doubt about it. I came here alone in 1965 without any help practically. Where to live, where to sleep, there was no destination. Sometimes some friend's house, sometimes some friend's house, practically loitering on the street. And in this way were passed more than one year. I arrived here in 1965 in September, end of September, 17th of September, in Boston. Hmm. Is it Boston? Devotee (1): Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, in Boston, I stayed on the sea, on the only, but I saw the Boston city. Then I was brought to New York. So I had one friend in Butler, Pennsylvania. Hmm. After my arrival, I was received by some representative of my host. So he took me to Butler, and there I stayed for twenty days. Then I came to New York. (break) . . . one introductory letter to one Dr. Mishra. So that is the beginning of my life in New York. Then struggling. Then gradually, when these boys came to me, I got some relief. And in this way we are propagating, opening branches, and the movement is going forward. Reporter: Are there many decisions that people ask you to make, about whether the movement should do this, or should do that, or do they bother you of that now, or are you just busy writing and translating? *Prabhupāda: No, we do not accept any—what is called?—defective suggestion. We do not accept. We have got our program. This program is coming directly from Kṛṣṇa. The Bhagavad*-gītā is there. Reporter: Okay. Prabhupāda: So we are simply giving a practical set of the instruction of *Gītā* . This is our business. We don't manufacture any imaginative thing. Rāmeśvara: His idea . . . his question, Prabhupāda, is also, suppose someone wants to buy a farm or wants to do some new project. Do they ask your permission first? Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole Society is going on under my direction. Whatever they do, they take my permission and they put into action. Nothing is allowed without my permission. *Reporter: I wonder if you might have any opinions on some of the leaders of cults and groups in the United States, such as the Divine Light Mission, or the T.M. and so forth. I'm wondering if you have any opinions on Guru Maharaj*-ji or Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. *Prabhupāda: There are different groups. I know that. But I do not go in detail to understand them. But our . . . we have got a crucial test, that anyone who is . . . does not know about Kṛṣṇa, he is put into four different types of categories, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . One category is that he is sinful. Another category is that he is rascal. Another category is that he's lowest of the mankind. And another category is that his so-called knowledge is taken away by illusory energy. So this is our test. That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā , that: Anyone who is not talking about God, he is either of these group: sinful, rascal, lowest of the mankind, and knowledge taken away by illusion. This is our conclusion, and that's a fact. Because a person who does not know about God, what he is? He is animal. The animal has no knowledge about God. But a human being, if he poses himself to be very learned, then he must have knowledge about God; otherwise what is his knowledge? Reporter: Do you have any opinion about Ted Patrick, who I guess you've probably heard of? Prabhupāda: I, I do not care to read these persons. But I have no business, because we are strictly following Kṛṣṇa. Our signboard is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So anyone who does not know anything about Kṛṣṇa, we reject him immediately. That's all. Simple business. Reporter: Is the only way to know Kṛṣṇa through the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. If you want to know me, then you must know about me from me. You can not speculate about me. If you speculate that, "Swāmījī is so rich," or "Swāmī might have so much bank balance also," or "He may be so . . ." This is all speculation. But when I say that my bank balance is such and such, that is right knowledge. Reporter: I didn't understand you. Prabhupāda: That suppose if you are speculating what may be the Swāmījī's strength of bank balance. So how you can know it by speculation? But if I say that my bank balance is such and such, than you can understand what is bank balance. So by speculative knowledge you cannot understand God. When God says what He is, then you can understand. Reporter: Do you feel also that if someone read the Bhagava . . .? I can't pronounce it . . . *Rāmeśvara: Bhagavad*-gītā . *Reporter: . . . Bhagavad*-gītā and other books, that a person merely by reading these could attain knowledge of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Reporter: Would that person have to have contact with you and learn from you also? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is explained; *there is no difficulty. But if there is difficulty to understand, then we have to approach a person who has understood Bhagavad*-gītā . Otherwise the language is very plain; there is no difficulty. Unfortunately, they bring their own interpretation and spoil the whole thing. Reporter: Um . . . *Prabhupāda: Otherwise where is the difficulty? Just like the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: *The beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā is the battlefield, and the battlefield is called Kurukṣetra. So Kurukṣetra is still there in India, but these so-called learned scholars, politicians, they're squeezing out some meaning out of Kurukṣetra. What is the necessity? Kurukṣetra is a place where actually, historically the battle took place. (Reporter changes cassette of tape recorder) (break) Rāmeśvara: . . . culture Prabhupāda: Yes. Attentive. Reporter: You don't see any slowing down of the impact of . . . Prabhupāda: No. It can be slowed down unless we spoil it. Reporter: Is there anyone who is designated to succeed you as the primary teacher of the movement? Prabhupāda: I am training some, I mean to say, advanced students so that they may be very easily take up the charge. I have made them GBC. They are under my direct training, and I think they will be able to conduct this movement. Reporter: Do you expect to name one person as your successor, or have you already? Prabhupāda: That I am not contemplating now. But there is no need of one person. As other things are managed, but by committee, so this can also be managed, and the committee may elect one person as chief. As, just like in the democracy there are senators and there is president, so it may be I may nominate or they can nominate. Reporter: Do you feel are you in good health now? You look it. Prabhupāda: Yes. After all, of course I am eighty, eighty years old. And I complete eighty years next September. So the age is there, although I am feeling not aged by . . . the effect of age must be there. Reporter: I didn't understand that. Rāmeśvara: He says although . . . Prabhupāda says although he's not feeling aged, the effect of age is there. Reporter: When I interviewed you perhaps five or six years ago, it was before there were reports of the astronauts landing on the moon, and I asked you at that time if you thought . . . what you thought about it, and you said that, as I recall, that they would not be able to land or explore, because spirits or creatures that lived on the moon would not allow it. The reports of course said that indeed people did land and explore and return safely. I understand you have further thoughts about that (laughter) and you've even written a lot about it. I wonder if you could tell me, not at great length perhaps, but what your belief about those events is. *Prabhupāda: Yes. From the . . . that question I was discussing the other day. In the common sense, question, that all over the world, they accept Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, in this way Saturday last. So why these arrangement, Sunday first and Monday second? And nobody could reply it. But as a layman I can conclude that sun planet is first and the moon planet is next. So if you cannot go to the sun planet, which is ninety*-three million miles away, how you can go to the moon planet within four days? Nobody could answer me. Can you answer? Reporter: Well, I don't think it's worth the answer now, but I'm wondering what your response is. *Prabhupāda: But this is the arrangement all over the world. Sunday first, Monday second, then Tuesday. So sun, moon, Mars, Jupiter, in this way. Last Saturn. This is the arrangement of the planets. So if this is the arrangement of the planets, moon*-day next to . . . moon next to sun, and if you cannot go to the sun, how can you go to the moon? Reporter: Do you, in other words, do you believe that astronauts landed somewhere? *Prabhupāda: That is next question. First of all, whether you actually went to the moon, that is the first question. You have to conclude that you did not, because the sun planet is first, the moon planet is second. You cannot go to the sun planet, ninety*-three millions of miles, how can you go to the moon planet? Reporter: Well, except that . . . Prabhupāda: According to our śāstra , the moon planet is above the sun planet, and the distance is 1,600,000 miles. So accepting that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away, then you add another 1,600,000, almost 2,000,000, it becomes 15,000,000 miles away. So if you go at the speed of 18,000 miles per hour, it takes more than 6 months. So how you go there in 4 days? And you advertise in the paper: "Now they have reached," after 4 days. Rāmeśvara: They don't accept that the moon is further away. Prabhupāda: They don't accept, that is another thing, but we have got this information. How we can accept it? Reporter: I didn't understand that last. Rāmeśvara: I said to Prabhupāda that the modern man believes that the moon is closer, but Prabhupāda said: "But our ancient literatures teach that the moon is further away. So since we have that information, how can we accept the version of the modern scientists?" Reporter: Hmm. Hmm. Rāmeśvara: We've got . . . Prabhupāda: Not only that. Why this arrangement that Monday and . . . Sunday first, Monday second? Reporter: Well, that doesn't necessarily speak of distance. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Reporter: It doesn't necessarily speak of distance. Prabhupāda: That . . . distance may not be, but you have to accept the sun planet first, moon planet next. Reporter: Er . . . Prabhupāda: Distance is not the question. Reporter: Okay. Prabhupāda: Why this arrangement: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday? There is some system. The system is, just like first, second, third, fourth. So it is naturally concluded the moon planet is next to the sun planet. Reporter: Do you feel—maybe you answered this, but I didn't understand the answer—do you feel that astronauts did land somewhere, but it was some other planet? Prabhupāda: That may be. Or it may not be also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about that sometimes people ask us what about the pictures of man on the moon? Rāmeśvara: They show man in a spacesuit walking on some other planet. Prabhupāda: That is also, what is called, argumentative. Somebody says it is laboratory arrangement. Reporter: Hmm. Laboratory. Prabhupāda: Of course, we do not go into the details of this. My question is that why Sunday first and Monday second? Nobody can apli . . . replies. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda once also argued that the dust, the dirt that they brought back, it did not reflect any light, but the moon is always reflecting light. So it was a different substance than what must be on the moon surface. Prabhupāda: Now, according to our Vedic scripture, moon is one of the heavenly planets. Reporter: Are there any other Vedic scriptures that you believe speak to a situation that is greatly misunderstood today besides this? Prabhupāda: No. Vedic understanding means there is no different Vedic version. Reporter: But do people . . . say another example where what you hold is very different from what the rest of society holds, is there something else that would be . . . Prabhupāda: No. Why . . . Rāmeśvara: No, he means, Prabhupāda, that just like modern man is thinking that they went to the moon, and our Vedic scripture says they didn't, so he's asking are there any other controversies, just like reincarnation, transmigration . . . Prabhupāda: No, so far Vedic students are concerned, there are no controversies. Rāmeśvara: But from what the modern man believes there may be some differences. Prabhupāda: Modern man believes, that's all right, but . . . Rāmeśvara: That's what his question is. *Prabhupāda: Our, our basic knowledge is on the Vedic principle, that whatever . . . just like we are explaining now, veda*-vihito dharmaḥ . We have to understand everything from the Vedas , from this Vedic knowledge. So anything which does not speak accor . . . in terms of the Vedic formula, we do not accept such knowledge as valid. Reporter: Okay. Prabhupāda: But practically you are seeing that. But . . . Reporter: Would you accept conclusions from science that . . . only if it agreed with the Vedic scriptures? Prabhupāda: First of all is that . . . as you say science, what do you mean by science? Can you explain? Reporter: Well, what the . . . the best conclusions of the best people in science. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right, but what is the best conclusion? Reporter: Well, rely on their opinions. Prabhupāda: That is opinion. The opinion is changing. How you can rely? That is not fixed up. So what is this opinion? What is the value of this opinion? Reporter: Well . . . Prabhupāda: You give some opinion, and after some years you change it. So what is the . . . how can I rely on your opinion? Reporter: Would Darwin's theory of evolution and other evolutionary theories . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, if it is being changed every year or every ten years, then what is the value of this opinion? There is no value. Reporter: Well, but religious thought in India has changed over the years too. Prabhupāda: No. Nothing. We do not change. Just like your Bhagav . . . Reporter: Well, others . . . Prabhupāda: Bhagav . . . Reporter: Others change. *Prabhupāda: Ah, others may deviate, that is another thing. But the system is not that. You cannot deviate from the Vedic injunction, that if you have to follow the ācāryas , just like India is obeying. The mass population or the sane population, they are following the ācāryas . ācāryas means great teachers, bona fide teachers—perhaps you have heard their name—just like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. So they are followed, and they are of the same opinion. Millions of years ago, what was the opinion, and that opinion is still there. Ācchā , take for Bhagavad*-gītā . And that is . . . not a single Indian who does not accept Bhagavad-gītā as authority. This is besides the foreigners who also take interest so much in Bhagavad-gītā . So far Indians are concerned, even some of the Muhammadans. So apart from Muhammadans, those who are claiming as Hindu, they all accept the authority of Bhagavad-gītā . So this Bhagavad-gītā , they might have changed, but that is not acceptable. Reporter: I think I covered most questions that I wanted to in the interview. Did you say that somebody would be transcribing? Rāmeśvara: Yes, I'm going to arrange to have it transcribed. Reporter: Because there are a lot of things that I couldn't catch, just because I'm not atuned to hearing you, so a lot of words I did not understand. But . . . Rāmeśvara: I'll arrange for that. Reporter: Okay. Rāmeśvara: You'll get it tomorrow. Reporter: Oh, I enjoyed it very much. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (break) Rāmeśvara: Just like there is this one point that the scientists say something which everyone in the world believes, but you are saying something different. So he was very interested . . . Prabhupāda: No. I . . . I . . . Reporter: Well the Vedic scriptures say that. Rāmeśvara: Yes, the Vedic scriptures . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: . . . say something different. Prabhupāda: The thing is, that is practical. That scientifics statement given today, and after few days it is changed. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then if I say: "What is the value of such statement if you change it?" That is my point. And so far Vedic injunctions are there, you don't change. What was given millions of years ago, that we carry. Reporter: Thank you very much. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . just like you are also following the instructions, spiritual instructions. So we see those disciples who observe these four regulative principles, they become . . . (indistinct) . . . according to the advice from the brāhmaṇas . It is very good, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas ( BG 3.21). If the leaders of the society accept something, then the followers, they also accept. So that brainwork must be there. Just like in the whole body, the brain is the most important part. If one of your arms is cut off, you do not die; but if the head is cut off, you will die. So the brāhmaṇa community of the society must be maintained, otherwise who will guide? Without brain, who will guide the arms and the legs and the head? So at the present moment that is lacking. The brain society is practically nil, and they are not eager to establish or to educate a section of people to become perfect brāhmin . There is no such arrangement. There is engineering college, medical college—so many different departments are there, educational institutions—but there is no institution throughout the whole world how to train a class of men to become perfect brāhmaṇas , or intelligent class. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are just trying to set up a section of the people to become very, very intelligent. And who is very, very intelligent? One who knows God. He is intelligent. That is the end of knowledge. As any educational program it has got an end, so we are getting knowledge in so many ways, but end of knowledge is to know God. That is called Vedānta . Vedā means "knowledge"; anta means "end." Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). That is the end of knowledge. Simply by knowing God, you know everything. So that knowledge is lacking and being covered. So we are trying to give this knowledge to human society. Anyone helps this movement, he also becomes recognized by God. (indistinct aside to devotee about light) Therefore they have got Vedic process. Brain must be maintained. Just like if somebody is coming to attack you, you first of all try to protect your brain, head. Is it not? And his hands, not his legs. So the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. Brāhmaṇa is the brain, and the hands are the kṣatriyas . The brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya , and everyone is maintained by food, digestion—that is belly. Unless you digest nicely, then the brain will not act, and legs . . . hands will not act. Devotee: And then the legs, śūdras ? Prabhupāda: All of them required. They have got different functions. That is scientific division of human society. Somebody must work as brain, somebody works as hand, somebody works as belly, and somebody must work as legs. That is complete body. So other things are taken care of, but the government, the . . . (indistinct) . . . they are neglectful about this brain, brāhmaṇa . That is the defect of modern civilization. Therefore the human society is in more or less chaotic condition. There are so many educated leaders, so many universities, but still the society is not working. They are trying to adjust things in the United Nations. That is also not doing, because there is no brain, no brāhmaṇa . That is a fact. They do not know how to act. Everybody is whimsically saying something: "I think," "I believe." "You believe," "I believe," "He believes." Everyone believes. Who we should accept? What is the standard? From the present civilization everyone is coming forward: "I believe." You believe; I also believe. You don't accept my belief; I don't accept your belief. Finished. Whole adjustment is wrong. So there must be standard belief. If everyone puts forward his own belief, then which one will be the standard? So we are taking the Kṛṣṇa's instructions as standard. And that is the fact. There must be something standard. In the society, in such condition that "I believe," "You believe," "He believes," what is the standard? Devotee: Chaos. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the present condition. They are manufacturing their own ideas. They cannot accept the standard idea. If the whole human society in the United Nations passes a resolution that "The standard ideas advocated by the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we shall accept," immediately all problems solved. That is a fact. *Devotee: Prabhupāda, we have very strict standards. There is no second chance. We have a no smoking, no drinking, no drugs or anything. Just one offence, they are released for a lifetime—they can never return. So it's a very strict standard. We are the only corporate structure in North America. We have a very intelligent lawyer to put it into corporate rules, because sometimes people say that it is taking away their freedom of choice. After working hours you can have it legally on your papers that they cannot drink while working, but we have it even while on off*-hours. Our people work pretty hard. One question I wanted to ask you—I talked to Guru dāsa about it quite a bit—was as far as chanting rounds were concerned. Our people do work often sixteen, seventeen, eighteen hours a day, because we want to make this thing work. And sometimes we find that sixteen rounds, they don't do any, because in the end, it is not possible; they just don't have time, because of the work. Is there some kind of standard that we could set that would be . . . *Prabhupāda: General regulation is, suppose today you could not complete sixteen rounds—say you have completed twelve rounds—so the next day you complete four rounds. That means twenty rounds. Next day regular sixteen rounds, plus yesterday's. That is the rule. Anyway, something is better than nothing. (laughter) But the rule, regulation is, just like the Gosvāmīs, they, if they missed chanting rounds, they would not sleep, completely. That is vow, dṛḍha*-vrata . In Sanskrit it is called dṛḍha-vrata. That makes very strong spiritual strength. Devotee: Part of the problem from our point is that we hide our bead bags, because people think we'd be very ridiculous to be carrying a bead bag around. Prabhupāda: That is . . . (indistinct) . . . convince them. They can carry, what is called? Trans . . . transistor. Devotee: Transistor radio. Prabhupāda: Like a log. (laughter) And if you cannot carry it always . . . so it is very big social problem. Devotee: So we have to be careful of our position, because some people they have told me that, "I would be walking down the street sometime, and we passed the devotees . . ." Prabhupāda: No. You can say that, "I have got some defect in my hand. I have got some defect for chanting. Therefore I have covered it." (laughter) Hari Śauri: Sometime I have had people ask me why my hand is bandaged up. Devotee (2): This idea of teaching tennis is actually a good platform for preaching, because the people in America are so eager to learn how to play tennis. If they can tell all their customers, "Now if you want to play tennis very good—you have to follow these four rules, that will help you play tennis." *Prabhupāda: No, this tennis—not exactly like this—but this ball*-throwing, you see in the Bhāgavata , the queens of Kṛṣṇa on the roof, they are playing ball, throwing ball. That was a form of exercise—of course for the high-class kings and queens. Ordinary man, he is working all the day; *he hasn't got time to take to sporting. But queens, they have nothing to work. So on the roof of the palace they are playing this ball, this kind of tennis. I think that tennis is also meant for very high*-class society, eh? Devotee (2): Formerly it was just very exclusive. But now it is becoming the most popular sport in America. *Devotee: Thirty*-seven million people out of two hundred and twenty million people are now playing tennis. So it is the most popular sport. It is just a catalyst for media. Prabhupāda: I have seen in that park. Devotee: Yes, Rancho Park. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Rancho Park. Prabhupāda: What it's called? Devotee: Yes, where they . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Early in the morning they are playing tennis. Devotee: Right. We went for a walk one time, when I went out on a walk with you, and we were passing by the tennis courts, and all my friends were coaching friends, so I kind of hid in the middle of the group, because they would think I was a little bit crazy to be a devotee. And so I've had a lot of disguise. We are just using tennis as a medium. If the company fails tomorrow, then we know that we will always go straight to the temple. But right now it is a tremendous opportunity for us, because they become attracted to us, because we don't have shaved heads, because we aren't carrying bead bags externally. So they like us, and they become our friends. *Prabhupāda: In the . . . (indistinct) . . . yena tena prakāreṇa mana kṛṣṇe niveśayet : somehow or other draw the attention to Kṛṣṇa. So if the tennis player somehow or other comes to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he gets . . . (indistinct) . . . not that one has to live in the temple. Somehow or the other, if he chants Kṛṣṇa's name, he's a devotee. Yena tena prakāreṇa mana kṛṣṇe niveśayet. There is a verse. Somehow or other if somebody comes to the light, he takes, he sees sense—like that. So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Somehow or the other be conscious of Kṛṣṇa. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65). *Man*-manā means "think of Me." In another place: *"Of all , one who is thinking particularly of Me . . . (indistinct) . . . is considered the best." So somehow or the other if people are educated to think of Kṛṣṇa, that will be a great benefit in his life. Simply thinking. Other things you may do or may not do, but thinking of Kṛṣṇa is very, very important. That is education, first*-class education. Somehow or other. *So thinking of Kṛṣṇa means he is becoming purified. Material life is impure. Due to our impurity, we are attached to this material body. So the more you purify, then you come to your spiritual body. And when you are completely purified, no more restriction. No more . . . (indistinct) . . . the example given is the iron rod. You put it in the fire so it becomes warmer, gradually it becomes red*-hot. When it is red-hot it is no more iron rod; it is fire. Is it not? So if you always think of Kṛṣṇa, then you become gradually spiritualized, and then perfected in your spiritual life. You don't have any more material body in this life, and next life there is no restraint, simply . . . (indistinct) *Material body is the source of all tribulation. We have got suffering and so*-called enjoyment of life. This is due to this body. So as soon as we accept this material body, the material sufferings must be there. The chief material suffering is death. You have no . . . (indistinct) . . . birth, death, old age, disease—these are the highest, topmost material sufferings. Nobody wants to die, but death is come upon you. Nobody wants to take birth, but there is . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody wants old age, but there is . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody wants disease, but there is suffering. So either you live in America or in India or in heaven or hell, these material sufferings accompany you. But you do not want them. You are all sportsmen, young men, but you cannot expect that there will be no old age . . . (indistinct) . . . sportsman . . . (indistinct) . . . you cannot be . . . (indistinct) . . . there are so many young men, they are running in the morning, but if I run like that a few steps . . . (laughter) (laughs) So even I want it, I cannot do it, because I am old man. But this is compulsory. Because nobody wants to become old man and suffer. The science continues. They are defying God. So-called scientists say there is no need of God; you can solve all problems by science. Is it possible? But you cannot solve these four unwanted things—birth, death, old age and disease. It is impossible to check it. The devas , they are . . . (indistinct) . . . they control. That is the proof of existence. They deny the existence of God: "God is dead," "There is no God," "There is no need of God." But God is there. Simply worship. You are small. God will come at death, and everything will be taken away. *That is mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gītā : mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34) *"I come as death to take away all his assets, his health, his money, his assets, his education—everything." Sarva*-haraś. Sarva-haraś means "taking away." Therefore His name is Hari. Hari means "who can take away everything." So He takes away of the atheists all his possessions, and He takes away all discomforts of the devotees. Therefore His name is Hari; *He takes away. He takes away of the nondevotees all his so*-called possessions, of which he is very, very proud; and He takes away all the troubles of the devotee. This is going on. The devotee becomes very, very happy when all his material conditions are taken away by Kṛṣṇa: . . . (indistinct) . . . no more birth, death, old age and disease. He takes away all the disadvantages. And for the materialistic person, he is thinking, "All these my possessions: my wife, children, my house, my nation, my position, my bank balance and so on, so on, so on." He takes away. Forcefully it is taken away. We are thinking, "My strong body," deha , "my good children—very qualified, educated, well placed," dehāpatya; *kalatra , "my good wife, faithful wife—very pleasing, enchanting." Dehāpatya*-kalatrādiṣu . This is a struggle for existence, and we take these things as our soldiers. Just like a king fights with his soldiers, similarly, we fight, struggle for existence, that we have got a very comfortable home. We think that we are secured, but we are not secure. All these soldiers will be finished. He is a madman. He is thinking that his things will be safe. They will be finished with you—everyone. Then another chapter begins. From your good work in this life you can remain as a statue in the park. (laughter) You have to accept another body . . . (indistinct) . . . again. (pause) So in your job, do you read our books sometimes? *Devotee: Oh, more than sometimes. When we travel, I tell them . . . because we have to deal with the so*-called karmi world on our . . . I tell all of our professionals to do as much as they can, like they should always sleep with the bead bag in our hand, so that if you wake up at night we can chant ourselves back to sleep. And always read a book on Kṛṣṇa before you got to sleep, because our mind becomes agitated occasionally because of the dealings with the karmi world. So we have to do as much as we can to checkpoint any problems that may exist, so . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, the whole science of reading from the book, the situation is that you can dream of it. That is very good. Devotee: A couple of us are like life members. And every . . . most of the sincere . . . only the very intimate people within our organization really know about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They . . . we talk about karma , and whenever anyone falls down on the court and gets hurt, I tell them, "Don't worry, because you are not your body." And gradually, gradually it's starting to . . . you can see how they react, and if they react positively, then we introduce Kṛṣṇa consciousness to them. But if they are not, then we just, we don't . . . we leave them. Prabhupāda: By these activities you become recognized very nicely by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says: Anyone who does like this, he becomes very, very dear to Kṛṣṇa. That is our business, how to become dear to Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa says only, "Yes, you are all right," then your life is a success. Recognization by Kṛṣṇa! That is the success for us. This whole movement is how to be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Only Kṛṣṇa has to confirm, "Yes, you're doing . . . (indistinct) . . ." That is our aim; *that is our ambition—how Kṛṣṇa will recognize our service. And once recognized, then your life becomes successful. But He recognizes even slight service to Him. He is so kind. There are so many histories where He recognizes even slight service, insignificant. That is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā : Even slight service can save him from the greatest danger. *So try to do some service for Kṛṣṇa, and you can say you are recognized. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that we should not be very much anxious to see Kṛṣṇa, but we should work in such a way that Kṛṣṇa will see us. We should not try to see Kṛṣṇa. Many people are very anxious to see God. They say: "Can you show me God?" That is not the question of devotees. Devotees will say: "I may see or not see God, but if I can give Him service, then He will see me." Why shall I call God to see me, unnecessarily giving Him trouble? He is busy in so many ways, so why shall I divert His attention to see me? No. That is not what we do. Kṛṣṇa is giving me chance to serve Him, so let me serve Him sincerely, so that He will see me. He has His eyes everywhere, His hands, legs, everywhere. So if we do some service for Kṛṣṇa, He will see you, personally . . . (indistinct) . . . dadāmi buddhi*-yogaṁ taṁ (BG 10.10). *He will give intelligence how to come to Him. He is all*-pervading; everywhere He is present. And you can see Him also everywhere, if you develop such love for Him. So, give them some prasādam . Devotee: Thank you very much. (break) Devotee (3): In all of our decisions, when we have a meeting, if we don't know what to decide, we always say: "What would Prabhupāda think," or "What would Kṛṣṇa think?" And that's sometimes a . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . just like you are also following the instructions, spiritual instructions. So we see those disciples who observe these four regulative principles, they become . . . (indistinct) . . . according to the advice from the brāhmaṇas . It is very good, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas ( BG 3.21). If the leaders of the society accept something, then the followers, they also accept. So that brainwork must be there. Just like in the whole body, the brain is the most important part. If one of your arms is cut off, you do not die; but if the head is cut off, you will die. So the brāhmaṇa community of the society must be maintained, otherwise who will guide? Without brain, who will guide the arms and the legs and the head? So at the present moment that is lacking. The brain society is practically nil, and they are not eager to establish or to educate a section of people to become perfect brāhmin . There is no such arrangement. There is engineering college, medical college—so many different departments are there, educational institutions—but there is no institution throughout the whole world how to train a class of men to become perfect brāhmaṇas , or intelligent class. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are just trying to set up a section of the people to become very, very intelligent. And who is very, very intelligent? One who knows God. He is intelligent. That is the end of knowledge. As any educational program it has got an end, so we are getting knowledge in so many ways, but end of knowledge is to know God. That is called Vedānta . Vedā means "knowledge"; anta means "end." Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). That is the end of knowledge. Simply by knowing God, you know everything. So that knowledge is lacking and being covered. So we are trying to give this knowledge to human society. Anyone helps this movement, he also becomes recognized by God. (indistinct aside to devotee about light) Therefore they have got Vedic process. Brain must be maintained. Just like if somebody is coming to attack you, you first of all try to protect your brain, head. Is it not? And his hands, not his legs. So the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. Brāhmaṇa is the brain, and the hands are the kṣatriyas . The brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya , and everyone is maintained by food, digestion—that is belly. Unless you digest nicely, then the brain will not act, and legs . . . hands will not act. Devotee: And then the legs, śūdras ? Prabhupāda: All of them required. They have got different functions. That is scientific division of human society. Somebody must work as brain, somebody works as hand, somebody works as belly, and somebody must work as legs. That is complete body. So other things are taken care of, but the government, the . . . (indistinct) . . . they are neglectful about this brain, brāhmaṇa . That is the defect of modern civilization. Therefore the human society is in more or less chaotic condition. There are so many educated leaders, so many universities, but still the society is not working. They are trying to adjust things in the United Nations. That is also not doing, because there is no brain, no brāhmaṇa . That is a fact. They do not know how to act. Everybody is whimsically saying something: "I think," "I believe." "You believe," "I believe," "He believes." Everyone believes. Who we should accept? What is the standard? From the present civilization everyone is coming forward: "I believe." You believe; I also believe. You don't accept my belief; I don't accept your belief. Finished. Whole adjustment is wrong. So there must be standard belief. If everyone puts forward his own belief, then which one will be the standard? So we are taking the Kṛṣṇa's instructions as standard. And that is the fact. There must be something standard. In the society, in such condition that "I believe," "You believe," "He believes," what is the standard? Devotee: Chaos. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the present condition. They are manufacturing their own ideas. They cannot accept the standard idea. If the whole human society in the United Nations passes a resolution that "The standard ideas advocated by the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we shall accept," immediately all problems solved. That is a fact. *Devotee: Prabhupāda, we have very strict standards. There is no second chance. We have a no smoking, no drinking, no drugs or anything. Just one offence, they are released for a lifetime—they can never return. So it's a very strict standard. We are the only corporate structure in North America. We have a very intelligent lawyer to put it into corporate rules, because sometimes people say that it is taking away their freedom of choice. After working hours you can have it legally on your papers that they cannot drink while working, but we have it even while on off*-hours. Our people work pretty hard. One question I wanted to ask you—I talked to Guru dāsa about it quite a bit—was as far as chanting rounds were concerned. Our people do work often sixteen, seventeen, eighteen hours a day, because we want to make this thing work. And sometimes we find that sixteen rounds, they don't do any, because in the end, it is not possible; they just don't have time, because of the work. Is there some kind of standard that we could set that would be . . . *Prabhupāda: General regulation is, suppose today you could not complete sixteen rounds—say you have completed twelve rounds—so the next day you complete four rounds. That means twenty rounds. Next day regular sixteen rounds, plus yesterday's. That is the rule. Anyway, something is better than nothing. (laughter) But the rule, regulation is, just like the Gosvāmīs, they, if they missed chanting rounds, they would not sleep, completely. That is vow, dṛḍha*-vrata . In Sanskrit it is called dṛḍha-vrata. That makes very strong spiritual strength. Devotee: Part of the problem from our point is that we hide our bead bags, because people think we'd be very ridiculous to be carrying a bead bag around. Prabhupāda: That is . . . (indistinct) . . . convince them. They can carry, what is called? Trans . . . transistor. Devotee: Transistor radio. Prabhupāda: Like a log. (laughter) And if you cannot carry it always . . . so it is very big social problem. Devotee: So we have to be careful of our position, because some people they have told me that, "I would be walking down the street sometime, and we passed the devotees . . ." Prabhupāda: No. You can say that, "I have got some defect in my hand. I have got some defect for chanting. Therefore I have covered it." (laughter) Hari Śauri: Sometime I have had people ask me why my hand is bandaged up. Devotee (2): This idea of teaching tennis is actually a good platform for preaching, because the people in America are so eager to learn how to play tennis. If they can tell all their customers, "Now if you want to play tennis very good—you have to follow these four rules, that will help you play tennis." *Prabhupāda: No, this tennis—not exactly like this—but this ball*-throwing, you see in the Bhāgavata , the queens of Kṛṣṇa on the roof, they are playing ball, throwing ball. That was a form of exercise—of course for the high-class kings and queens. Ordinary man, he is working all the day; *he hasn't got time to take to sporting. But queens, they have nothing to work. So on the roof of the palace they are playing this ball, this kind of tennis. I think that tennis is also meant for very high*-class society, eh? Devotee (2): Formerly it was just very exclusive. But now it is becoming the most popular sport in America. *Devotee: Thirty*-seven million people out of two hundred and twenty million people are now playing tennis. So it is the most popular sport. It is just a catalyst for media. Prabhupāda: I have seen in that park. Devotee: Yes, Rancho Park. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Rancho Park. Prabhupāda: What it's called? Devotee: Yes, where they . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Early in the morning they are playing tennis. Devotee: Right. We went for a walk one time, when I went out on a walk with you, and we were passing by the tennis courts, and all my friends were coaching friends, so I kind of hid in the middle of the group, because they would think I was a little bit crazy to be a devotee. And so I've had a lot of disguise. We are just using tennis as a medium. If the company fails tomorrow, then we know that we will always go straight to the temple. But right now it is a tremendous opportunity for us, because they become attracted to us, because we don't have shaved heads, because we aren't carrying bead bags externally. So they like us, and they become our friends. *Prabhupāda: In the . . . (indistinct) . . . yena tena prakāreṇa mana kṛṣṇe niveśayet : somehow or other draw the attention to Kṛṣṇa. So if the tennis player somehow or other comes to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he gets . . . (indistinct) . . . not that one has to live in the temple. Somehow or the other, if he chants Kṛṣṇa's name, he's a devotee. Yena tena prakāreṇa mana kṛṣṇe niveśayet. There is a verse. Somehow or other if somebody comes to the light, he takes, he sees sense—like that. So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Somehow or the other be conscious of Kṛṣṇa. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65). *Man*-manā means "think of Me." In another place: *"Of all , one who is thinking particularly of Me . . . (indistinct) . . . is considered the best." So somehow or the other if people are educated to think of Kṛṣṇa, that will be a great benefit in his life. Simply thinking. Other things you may do or may not do, but thinking of Kṛṣṇa is very, very important. That is education, first*-class education. Somehow or other. *So thinking of Kṛṣṇa means he is becoming purified. Material life is impure. Due to our impurity, we are attached to this material body. So the more you purify, then you come to your spiritual body. And when you are completely purified, no more restriction. No more . . . (indistinct) . . . the example given is the iron rod. You put it in the fire so it becomes warmer, gradually it becomes red*-hot. When it is red-hot it is no more iron rod; it is fire. Is it not? So if you always think of Kṛṣṇa, then you become gradually spiritualized, and then perfected in your spiritual life. You don't have any more material body in this life, and next life there is no restraint, simply . . . (indistinct) *Material body is the source of all tribulation. We have got suffering and so*-called enjoyment of life. This is due to this body. So as soon as we accept this material body, the material sufferings must be there. The chief material suffering is death. You have no . . . (indistinct) . . . birth, death, old age, disease—these are the highest, topmost material sufferings. Nobody wants to die, but death is come upon you. Nobody wants to take birth, but there is . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody wants old age, but there is . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody wants disease, but there is suffering. So either you live in America or in India or in heaven or hell, these material sufferings accompany you. But you do not want them. You are all sportsmen, young men, but you cannot expect that there will be no old age . . . (indistinct) . . . sportsman . . . (indistinct) . . . you cannot be . . . (indistinct) . . . there are so many young men, they are running in the morning, but if I run like that a few steps . . . (laughter) (laughs) So even I want it, I cannot do it, because I am old man. But this is compulsory. Because nobody wants to become old man and suffer. The science continues. They are defying God. So-called scientists say there is no need of God; you can solve all problems by science. Is it possible? But you cannot solve these four unwanted things—birth, death, old age and disease. It is impossible to check it. The devas , they are . . . (indistinct) . . . they control. That is the proof of existence. They deny the existence of God: "God is dead," "There is no God," "There is no need of God." But God is there. Simply worship. You are small. God will come at death, and everything will be taken away. *That is mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gītā : mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34) *"I come as death to take away all his assets, his health, his money, his assets, his education—everything." Sarva*-haraś. Sarva-haraś means "taking away." Therefore His name is Hari. Hari means "who can take away everything." So He takes away of the atheists all his possessions, and He takes away all discomforts of the devotees. Therefore His name is Hari; *He takes away. He takes away of the nondevotees all his so*-called possessions, of which he is very, very proud; and He takes away all the troubles of the devotee. This is going on. The devotee becomes very, very happy when all his material conditions are taken away by Kṛṣṇa: . . . (indistinct) . . . no more birth, death, old age and disease. He takes away all the disadvantages. And for the materialistic person, he is thinking, "All these my possessions: my wife, children, my house, my nation, my position, my bank balance and so on, so on, so on." He takes away. Forcefully it is taken away. We are thinking, "My strong body," deha , "my good children—very qualified, educated, well placed," dehāpatya; *kalatra , "my good wife, faithful wife—very pleasing, enchanting." Dehāpatya*-kalatrādiṣu . This is a struggle for existence, and we take these things as our soldiers. Just like a king fights with his soldiers, similarly, we fight, struggle for existence, that we have got a very comfortable home. We think that we are secured, but we are not secure. All these soldiers will be finished. He is a madman. He is thinking that his things will be safe. They will be finished with you—everyone. Then another chapter begins. From your good work in this life you can remain as a statue in the park. (laughter) You have to accept another body . . . (indistinct) . . . again. (pause) So in your job, do you read our books sometimes? *Devotee: Oh, more than sometimes. When we travel, I tell them . . . because we have to deal with the so*-called karmi world on our . . . I tell all of our professionals to do as much as they can, like they should always sleep with the bead bag in our hand, so that if you wake up at night we can chant ourselves back to sleep. And always read a book on Kṛṣṇa before you got to sleep, because our mind becomes agitated occasionally because of the dealings with the karmi world. So we have to do as much as we can to checkpoint any problems that may exist, so . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, the whole science of reading from the book, the situation is that you can dream of it. That is very good. Devotee: A couple of us are like life members. And every . . . most of the sincere . . . only the very intimate people within our organization really know about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They . . . we talk about karma , and whenever anyone falls down on the court and gets hurt, I tell them, "Don't worry, because you are not your body." And gradually, gradually it's starting to . . . you can see how they react, and if they react positively, then we introduce Kṛṣṇa consciousness to them. But if they are not, then we just, we don't . . . we leave them. Prabhupāda: By these activities you become recognized very nicely by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says: Anyone who does like this, he becomes very, very dear to Kṛṣṇa. That is our business, how to become dear to Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa says only, "Yes, you are all right," then your life is a success. Recognization by Kṛṣṇa! That is the success for us. This whole movement is how to be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Only Kṛṣṇa has to confirm, "Yes, you're doing . . . (indistinct) . . ." That is our aim; *that is our ambition—how Kṛṣṇa will recognize our service. And once recognized, then your life becomes successful. But He recognizes even slight service to Him. He is so kind. There are so many histories where He recognizes even slight service, insignificant. That is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā : Even slight service can save him from the greatest danger. *So try to do some service for Kṛṣṇa, and you can say you are recognized. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that we should not be very much anxious to see Kṛṣṇa, but we should work in such a way that Kṛṣṇa will see us. We should not try to see Kṛṣṇa. Many people are very anxious to see God. They say: "Can you show me God?" That is not the question of devotees. Devotees will say: "I may see or not see God, but if I can give Him service, then He will see me." Why shall I call God to see me, unnecessarily giving Him trouble? He is busy in so many ways, so why shall I divert His attention to see me? No. That is not what we do. Kṛṣṇa is giving me chance to serve Him, so let me serve Him sincerely, so that He will see me. He has His eyes everywhere, His hands, legs, everywhere. So if we do some service for Kṛṣṇa, He will see you, personally . . . (indistinct) . . . dadāmi buddhi*-yogaṁ taṁ (BG 10.10). *He will give intelligence how to come to Him. He is all*-pervading; everywhere He is present. And you can see Him also everywhere, if you develop such love for Him. So, give them some prasādam . Devotee: Thank you very much. (break) Devotee (3): In all of our decisions, when we have a meeting, if we don't know what to decide, we always say: "What would Prabhupāda think," or "What would Kṛṣṇa think?" And that's sometimes a . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Prabhupāda: Hitler one side, fought with the Britishers, smashed them. This is one cause. Another cause: Hitler helped Subhas Chandra Bose to organize I.N.A. Two causes, the Britishers to go away. Otherwise, Gandhi's noncooperation movement was started in 1917, and we got our independence in 1947. Indian man: Thirty years. Prabhupāda: Thirty years he could not do anything. And Subhas Chandra Bose in 1940 or '42, he went out of India and organized this I.N.A with the help of Hitler, and the Britishers were obliged to leave India. What do you think? That is my estimation. Indian man: Yes, I think so too. Yes, and he is also . . . Prabhupāda: And Hitler not only helped Subhas Chandra Bose to organize this I.N.A. organization, but by fighting with the Britishers, he smashed . . . the British lion was bandaged. There was a cartoon picture. I've seen in that way. The lion is lying down and bandaged, (makes some gestures) here and here and here, there, patched, British lion. (laughter) That's a fact. Indian man: Subhas Chandra Bose, he was in, I think he was . . . Prabhupāda: He was my college friend. We studied in the same college. Indian man: Is that right? Prabhupāda: He was one year senior to me. He appeared from the year 1919, I appeared in 1920. Indian man: Yes. And then he was in a plane crash? Or . . .? Prabhupāda: There is a great history. Indian man: Yes. I don't know if it is true. (break) . . . he has taken sannyāsa , and just gone out somewhere. Prabhupāda: So anyway, although you have got independence, India, oh, what is the profit? Hari-śauri: The independence is just about to come, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you start preaching there. (Trivikrama enters and pays obeisances) *Prabhupāda: The real sva*-raja is go back to home, back to Godhead. Trivikrama: Śrīla Prabhupāda, today I made arrangements for my tickets. I'll be leaving Saturday. So you're leaving Friday, so it's just nice. Prabhupāda: You're going to . . .? Trivikrama: Hong Kong first, make sure Dai Nippon gets printed nicely. Prabhupāda: They have got a press in Hong Kong? Trivikrama: Yes. At least an office. I'm not . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa said there was a press, but I'm not sure. Prabhupāda: (Hari-śauri is looking at something) What is this? Hari-śauri: It says here that this is possibly the very first newspaper article of your arrival in the West. This is, er, this was written at the time that you . . . the very first month you were there. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Butler. Trivikrama: It says you may stay for one month. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Hari-śauri: It says you have come for one month as a commissioner to preach bhakti*-yoga in the West. Prabhupāda: Called me "Ambassador." It is a very old article. Where you got it? Trivikrama: From one . . . Candanācārya had a copy. Prabhupāda: Oh. It was in Butler in 19 . . . Devotee: You were staying in the YMCA. *Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) So I did not say anything seriously, but perhaps he took it very seriously, Gopal's father. So he might have written to Gopal that, "Swami Bhaktivedanta wants to go to America. If you sponsor, then he can go." So whatever the correspondence was there between the father and son, I did not know. I simply asked him, "Why don't you ask your son Gopal to sponsor so that I can go there? I want to preach there." So after some months, three, four months, the No*-Objection Certificate from the Indian embassy in New York, Gopal sent to me, yes, that he had already sponsored my arrival there for one month. So all of a sudden I got the paper, No-Objection Certificate, by the Indian embassy. After so much inquiry, I learned that so much inquiry was done and so on, so on. Then I tried to take a passport and paper process. So I got the passport. Then I approached that Sumati Morarji. She once gave me five hundred rupees in exchange of my Bhāgavata book, so I approached her that, "Give me one ticket." They have got their shipping company, Scindia Navigation. So she said: "Swāmījī, you are so old, you are taking this so responsibility. Do you think it is right?" "No, it is all right." (laughs) At that time, I was seventy years old. So all the secretary, they thought that, "Swāmījī is going to die there." Anyway, they gave me the ticket, one return free ticket by their ship. Then arrangement was going on. So there is another process to get a P-form. You know. *Indian man: P*-form. *Prabhupāda: P*-form sanctioned by the state government, yes, state government. So it was applied for. It was . . . no sanction was coming. Then I went to the State Bank of India, the officer Mr. Bhattacari. So he told me: "Swāmījī, you are sponsored by private man, so we cannot accept it. If you are invited by some institution, then we could consider, but you are invited by a private man for one month, and, after one month, if you are in difficulty, and there will be so much obstacles and so on." "Well, I have already prepared everything to go." So I said that, "You . . . what you have done?" "No, I have decided not to sanction your P-form." "No, no, don't do this. You better send to your superior. It should not be done like that." So he took my request, and he sent the file to Chief Officer of Foreign Exchange, something like that. Anyway, he is the supreme man in the State Bank of India. So I went to see him. So I asked his secretary that, "You have got such file? You kindly put to Mr . . ."—his name was Mr. Rao—"I want to see him." So the secretary agreed, and he put the file and put my slip that I wanted to see him. I was waiting. So Mr. Rao came personally. He said: "Swāmījī, I have passed your case. Don't worry." (laughs) In this way. Hari-śauri: He knew you from before, or . . .? Prabhupāda: No. He did not know me. So somebody saw him in Bombay, so he reminded that, "I know Swāmījī when he went to USA." Somebody was telling me. Hari-śauri: He remembered. Prabhupāda: Hmm. The name is there, he remembered. After all, he is officer. He knows so many things. So it is a great history. (laughs) There was two days I was attacked in heart on the ship. So hardship. Trivikrama: Then you had a dream? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: What was that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That is . . . (laughs) The dream was I must come here. Hari-śauri: It was some instruction that you got? Prabhupāda: The dream was that Kṛṣṇa in His many forms was bowing the row . . . what is called? Hari-śauri: Rowing the boat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Trivikrama: Jaya . Prabhupāda: And when I arrived in Boston I wrote that poetry. Hari-śauri: If you were only sponsored for one month, how is it that you were able to extend your visa all the time? Prabhupāda: I was extending. The immigration officer came in Boston in my boat. He inquired about this. So he asked me, "Sir, Swāmījī, how long you want to stay?" So I thought that I have no shelter, I have no money, but I have got the return ticket. So I did not know how long I . . . (laughs) He asked me, "How long you want to stay?" So I thought, "In these circumstances, I can stay at most two months, because I have no means where to stay, how to eat, and where shall I go. So I may struggle for two months." So I told him, "I may stay at most two months." He immediately, two months, sanctioned immediately. I could not think that I shall be able to . . . (laughs) That one month were there, sponsoring. So I thought, "Another one month, that's all," that "This gentleman has sponsored for one month. So that is guaranteed. Then I can stay another one month. That's all." So after that, so I was staying here and there without any fixity. So I was extending the visa. Each time, I was paying ten dollars. Another three months, another three months, like that. And when one year was finished, they refused: "No extension." Hari-śauri: But by that time you had some kind of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: . . . organization going? Prabhupāda: Yes, hmm, at that time I was at Second Avenue. So then Raya Rāma took the help of a lawyer. He took the case, that he'll give me permanent residence. So he was extending only, and each time he was taking hundred and fifty dollars. So in this way, I entered in 1965, September, up to July—no, up to May—and in the May, month of May, there was heart stroke. Hari-śauri: That was when, '67? *Trivikrama: Sixty*-six. *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-six. Yes. '66. Yes, after one and a half year. Hari-śauri: No. That was '67 then. Prabhupāda: Because the time was taken, extension. Then, 1967, in July, I thought, "Now the health is broken." I was very sick after heart stroke. So I thought, "Now I shall not exist. So let me go to Vṛndāvana and die there." So I came back in July 1967. So this Brahmānanda and others, they were crying when I got on the boat. Hmm? The heart was so weak . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You went back to India by boat? Prabhupāda: No, by plane. I think . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From San Francisco. Prabhupāda: Hmm. At that time, I got some money. Five thousand was given by Jayānanda. He gave me five thousand, and Brahmānanda also gave me. So I spent some money for acquiring some . . . I had about six thousand. So then I purchased ticket coming back with Kīrtanānanda. In this way, came back to India. Hari-śauri: You were just saying . . . Prabhupāda: And again I paid five thousand rupees to Kīrtanānanda to come back. (aside) What is that? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Kirtirāja Prabhu bought this for your rocking chair. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Should I put it on? Prabhupāda: Rock and roll. (laughter) Hari-śauri: So when did you come back again? Prabhupāda: I came back in 1968, no, '67, December. Hari-śauri: Oh, you weren't gone long then. Trivikrama: Six months. Prabhupāda: Yes, July to December. Trivikrama: And your health was better? *Prabhupāda: Not very good. So many troubles. When I came back there's always a bad sound going on, gong*-gong-gong , in my brain. Very disturbing, in this Los Angeles. I was staying in some . . . I forgot. Trivikrama: La Cienega? Prabhupāda: Yes, huh? Trivikrama: In La Cienega? Prabhupāda: No, no, La Cienega, later on. I was staying near Pico. Is that Pico? There was a . . . I think Washington Boulevard? Near there. I forgot that quarter. It is black quarter. And this boy—who is he now? Aniruddha? What is his name? Devotee: Gurukṛpā? Prabhupāda: No, no. Aniruddha. Devotee: Gaurasundara? Prabhupāda: No, no. Aniruddha. Devotee: Oh, Aniruddha. Prabhupāda: Yes, he was taking care of me here in Los Angeles. And they used to come from San Francisco. First of all I came to San Francisco from India. Then I came to Los Angeles, to start a center here. I think Dayānanda took charge of this center. Devotee: I was at the Press building, and I saw a devotee had some stationery. Dayānanda was the . . . (indistinct) . . . and Gargamuni was the secretary. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: So Los Angeles center was opened on your arrival back from India. And up to that time there was New York and . . .? Prabhupāda: San Francisco. Devotee: And Montreal? Prabhupāda: No, Montreal later. I think, maybe, Montreal first. (end) Prabhupāda: Hitler one side, fought with the Britishers, smashed them. This is one cause. Another cause: Hitler helped Subhas Chandra Bose to organize I.N.A. Two causes, the Britishers to go away. Otherwise, Gandhi's noncooperation movement was started in 1917, and we got our independence in 1947. Indian man: Thirty years. Prabhupāda: Thirty years he could not do anything. And Subhas Chandra Bose in 1940 or '42, he went out of India and organized this I.N.A with the help of Hitler, and the Britishers were obliged to leave India. What do you think? That is my estimation. Indian man: Yes, I think so too. Yes, and he is also . . . Prabhupāda: And Hitler not only helped Subhas Chandra Bose to organize this I.N.A. organization, but by fighting with the Britishers, he smashed . . . the British lion was bandaged. There was a cartoon picture. I've seen in that way. The lion is lying down and bandaged, (makes some gestures) here and here and here, there, patched, British lion. (laughter) That's a fact. Indian man: Subhas Chandra Bose, he was in, I think he was . . . Prabhupāda: He was my college friend. We studied in the same college. Indian man: Is that right? Prabhupāda: He was one year senior to me. He appeared from the year 1919, I appeared in 1920. Indian man: Yes. And then he was in a plane crash? Or . . .? Prabhupāda: There is a great history. Indian man: Yes. I don't know if it is true. (break) . . . he has taken sannyāsa , and just gone out somewhere. Prabhupāda: So anyway, although you have got independence, India, oh, what is the profit? Hari-śauri: The independence is just about to come, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you start preaching there. (Trivikrama enters and pays obeisances) *Prabhupāda: The real sva*-raja is go back to home, back to Godhead. Trivikrama: Śrīla Prabhupāda, today I made arrangements for my tickets. I'll be leaving Saturday. So you're leaving Friday, so it's just nice. Prabhupāda: You're going to . . .? Trivikrama: Hong Kong first, make sure Dai Nippon gets printed nicely. Prabhupāda: They have got a press in Hong Kong? Trivikrama: Yes. At least an office. I'm not . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa said there was a press, but I'm not sure. Prabhupāda: (Hari-śauri is looking at something) What is this? Hari-śauri: It says here that this is possibly the very first newspaper article of your arrival in the West. This is, er, this was written at the time that you . . . the very first month you were there. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Butler. Trivikrama: It says you may stay for one month. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Hari-śauri: It says you have come for one month as a commissioner to preach bhakti*-yoga in the West. Prabhupāda: Called me "Ambassador." It is a very old article. Where you got it? Trivikrama: From one . . . Candanācārya had a copy. Prabhupāda: Oh. It was in Butler in 19 . . . Devotee: You were staying in the YMCA. *Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) So I did not say anything seriously, but perhaps he took it very seriously, Gopal's father. So he might have written to Gopal that, "Swami Bhaktivedanta wants to go to America. If you sponsor, then he can go." So whatever the correspondence was there between the father and son, I did not know. I simply asked him, "Why don't you ask your son Gopal to sponsor so that I can go there? I want to preach there." So after some months, three, four months, the No*-Objection Certificate from the Indian embassy in New York, Gopal sent to me, yes, that he had already sponsored my arrival there for one month. So all of a sudden I got the paper, No-Objection Certificate, by the Indian embassy. After so much inquiry, I learned that so much inquiry was done and so on, so on. Then I tried to take a passport and paper process. So I got the passport. Then I approached that Sumati Morarji. She once gave me five hundred rupees in exchange of my Bhāgavata book, so I approached her that, "Give me one ticket." They have got their shipping company, Scindia Navigation. So she said: "Swāmījī, you are so old, you are taking this so responsibility. Do you think it is right?" "No, it is all right." (laughs) At that time, I was seventy years old. So all the secretary, they thought that, "Swāmījī is going to die there." Anyway, they gave me the ticket, one return free ticket by their ship. Then arrangement was going on. So there is another process to get a P-form. You know. *Indian man: P*-form. *Prabhupāda: P*-form sanctioned by the state government, yes, state government. So it was applied for. It was . . . no sanction was coming. Then I went to the State Bank of India, the officer Mr. Bhattacari. So he told me: "Swāmījī, you are sponsored by private man, so we cannot accept it. If you are invited by some institution, then we could consider, but you are invited by a private man for one month, and, after one month, if you are in difficulty, and there will be so much obstacles and so on." "Well, I have already prepared everything to go." So I said that, "You . . . what you have done?" "No, I have decided not to sanction your P-form." "No, no, don't do this. You better send to your superior. It should not be done like that." So he took my request, and he sent the file to Chief Officer of Foreign Exchange, something like that. Anyway, he is the supreme man in the State Bank of India. So I went to see him. So I asked his secretary that, "You have got such file? You kindly put to Mr . . ."—his name was Mr. Rao—"I want to see him." So the secretary agreed, and he put the file and put my slip that I wanted to see him. I was waiting. So Mr. Rao came personally. He said: "Swāmījī, I have passed your case. Don't worry." (laughs) In this way. Hari-śauri: He knew you from before, or . . .? Prabhupāda: No. He did not know me. So somebody saw him in Bombay, so he reminded that, "I know Swāmījī when he went to USA." Somebody was telling me. Hari-śauri: He remembered. Prabhupāda: Hmm. The name is there, he remembered. After all, he is officer. He knows so many things. So it is a great history. (laughs) There was two days I was attacked in heart on the ship. So hardship. Trivikrama: Then you had a dream? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: What was that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That is . . . (laughs) The dream was I must come here. Hari-śauri: It was some instruction that you got? Prabhupāda: The dream was that Kṛṣṇa in His many forms was bowing the row . . . what is called? Hari-śauri: Rowing the boat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Trivikrama: Jaya . Prabhupāda: And when I arrived in Boston I wrote that poetry. Hari-śauri: If you were only sponsored for one month, how is it that you were able to extend your visa all the time? Prabhupāda: I was extending. The immigration officer came in Boston in my boat. He inquired about this. So he asked me, "Sir, Swāmījī, how long you want to stay?" So I thought that I have no shelter, I have no money, but I have got the return ticket. So I did not know how long I . . . (laughs) He asked me, "How long you want to stay?" So I thought, "In these circumstances, I can stay at most two months, because I have no means where to stay, how to eat, and where shall I go. So I may struggle for two months." So I told him, "I may stay at most two months." He immediately, two months, sanctioned immediately. I could not think that I shall be able to . . . (laughs) That one month were there, sponsoring. So I thought, "Another one month, that's all," that "This gentleman has sponsored for one month. So that is guaranteed. Then I can stay another one month. That's all." So after that, so I was staying here and there without any fixity. So I was extending the visa. Each time, I was paying ten dollars. Another three months, another three months, like that. And when one year was finished, they refused: "No extension." Hari-śauri: But by that time you had some kind of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: . . . organization going? Prabhupāda: Yes, hmm, at that time I was at Second Avenue. So then Raya Rāma took the help of a lawyer. He took the case, that he'll give me permanent residence. So he was extending only, and each time he was taking hundred and fifty dollars. So in this way, I entered in 1965, September, up to July—no, up to May—and in the May, month of May, there was heart stroke. Hari-śauri: That was when, '67? *Trivikrama: Sixty*-six. *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-six. Yes. '66. Yes, after one and a half year. Hari-śauri: No. That was '67 then. Prabhupāda: Because the time was taken, extension. Then, 1967, in July, I thought, "Now the health is broken." I was very sick after heart stroke. So I thought, "Now I shall not exist. So let me go to Vṛndāvana and die there." So I came back in July 1967. So this Brahmānanda and others, they were crying when I got on the boat. Hmm? The heart was so weak . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You went back to India by boat? Prabhupāda: No, by plane. I think . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From San Francisco. Prabhupāda: Hmm. At that time, I got some money. Five thousand was given by Jayānanda. He gave me five thousand, and Brahmānanda also gave me. So I spent some money for acquiring some . . . I had about six thousand. So then I purchased ticket coming back with Kīrtanānanda. In this way, came back to India. Hari-śauri: You were just saying . . . Prabhupāda: And again I paid five thousand rupees to Kīrtanānanda to come back. (aside) What is that? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Kirtirāja Prabhu bought this for your rocking chair. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Should I put it on? Prabhupāda: Rock and roll. (laughter) Hari-śauri: So when did you come back again? Prabhupāda: I came back in 1968, no, '67, December. Hari-śauri: Oh, you weren't gone long then. Trivikrama: Six months. Prabhupāda: Yes, July to December. Trivikrama: And your health was better? *Prabhupāda: Not very good. So many troubles. When I came back there's always a bad sound going on, gong*-gong-gong , in my brain. Very disturbing, in this Los Angeles. I was staying in some . . . I forgot. Trivikrama: La Cienega? Prabhupāda: Yes, huh? Trivikrama: In La Cienega? Prabhupāda: No, no, La Cienega, later on. I was staying near Pico. Is that Pico? There was a . . . I think Washington Boulevard? Near there. I forgot that quarter. It is black quarter. And this boy—who is he now? Aniruddha? What is his name? Devotee: Gurukṛpā? Prabhupāda: No, no. Aniruddha. Devotee: Gaurasundara? Prabhupāda: No, no. Aniruddha. Devotee: Oh, Aniruddha. Prabhupāda: Yes, he was taking care of me here in Los Angeles. And they used to come from San Francisco. First of all I came to San Francisco from India. Then I came to Los Angeles, to start a center here. I think Dayānanda took charge of this center. Devotee: I was at the Press building, and I saw a devotee had some stationery. Dayānanda was the . . . (indistinct) . . . and Gargamuni was the secretary. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: So Los Angeles center was opened on your arrival back from India. And up to that time there was New York and . . .? Prabhupāda: San Francisco. Devotee: And Montreal? Prabhupāda: No, Montreal later. I think, maybe, Montreal first. (end) Prabhupāda: ". . . afraid of me, what kind of child? (laughs) Where you got so much strength?" And the answer here: "Prahlāda Mahārāja said: 'My dear King, the source of my strength, of which you are asking, is also the source of yours, by which you are challenging. Indeed, the original source of all kinds of strength is one. He is not only your strength or mine, but the only strength for everyone. Without Him, no one can get any strength, whether moving or not moving, superior or inferior. Everyone, including Lord Brahmā, is controlled by the strength of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.' " "All right, let me see how your strength is coming. Now I shall kill you. Come on. Let me see (laughs) how your God is coming to save you." This is atheism, challenging. And when He appeared, the Hiraṇyakaśipu became a fly (laughs) in front of . . . eh? Where is such language? Even there are many Sanskrit scholars now, they cannot produce such language. That is not possible. And five thousand years before, Vyāsadeva presented this unique language. *Rāmeśvara: This is the twentieth volume of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam now printed. Twentieth volume. Prabhupāda: Number twenty. *Rāmeśvara: Of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam series. Prabhupāda: Out of sixty. Still forty. Rāmeśvara: So you have already finished two more volumes at least. Prabhupāda: So, say . . . Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda says out of sixty volumes, twenty are already printed, and . . . Prabhupāda: Twenty already printed, and two or three ready for being printed. Hayagrīva: But this is the bulk of the cantos, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Rāmeśvara: No, Tenth Canto will be very long. Hayagrīva: The Tenth . . . *Prabhupāda: Tenth Canto will be like Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , fifteen volumes, Tenth Canto. Generally six chapters a volume, eh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Depending on the size. Prabhupāda: No, generally. So there are ninety chapters. That means minimum fifteen volumes, and maybe more. We have presented Kṛṣṇa book, just a summary study, not explained. But when it will be explained, with each and every śloka , purport, then it will be not less than fifteen volumes. Tenth Chapter is the face of the Lord. We have described the legs, hands, belly, that's all, and Tenth Chapter is the face, smiling face. Therefore we should not jump over the face all at once. It must go from the legs, gradually, and then face, then forehead, then hair. Eleventh, Twelfth, Twelfth Chapter, finished, the whole body of Kṛṣṇa. Hmm. So thank you very much. Devotees: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We'd like to put . . . we have got in some other copies, and we would like to put them on the altar tonight for sandhyā ārati . These two are your copies. Prabhupāda: Ah yes, take it. Rāmeśvara: But those two are for Your Divine Grace. We have others to show the Deities. Prabhupāda: All right. All right, do it. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, how you are keeping your health? Kīrtanānanda: Pretty good. Prabhupāda: That's . . . and things are going nice? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Devotees are all anxious for you, to see. Prabhupāda: Yes. And Hayagrīva Mahārāja is being forced? (laughs) Hayagrīva: You should cane me more, Śrīla Prabhupāda Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is very cunning. Hayagrīva: I know. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: (still laughing) One may try to leave Him, but He is not going to leave you. Once come, "No, sir, you cannot go out." Just like our Ajāmila. He was devotee in the beginning, and later on, by bad association of prostitute, he fell. But Kṛṣṇa took him at the end. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). Kṛṣṇa gave him chance to give him a son. He kept the son's name Nārāyaṇa. So on account of affection of the son, he was chanting, "Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa." Just Kṛṣṇa is so kind that (laughs) "All right, this rascal is going out of My hand. All right, give him a child, Nārāyaṇa. He will chant, 'Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa,' and that will be his credit." Ajñāta*-sukṛti. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate (CC Madhya 8.70). Sukṛti , pious activities, of many millions of birth is not equal to love of Godhead. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. Tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyaṁ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā-matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate (Padyavali 14): "Purchase Kṛṣṇa consciousness anywhere it is available." What is the price? Tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam : "Only greediness, hankering. That is the price." "Oh, that I have got." "No, no. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. You cannot obtain this price even after millions of births' pious activities." All right. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Prabhupāda: ". . . afraid of me, what kind of child? (laughs) Where you got so much strength?" And the answer here: "Prahlāda Mahārāja said: 'My dear King, the source of my strength, of which you are asking, is also the source of yours, by which you are challenging. Indeed, the original source of all kinds of strength is one. He is not only your strength or mine, but the only strength for everyone. Without Him, no one can get any strength, whether moving or not moving, superior or inferior. Everyone, including Lord Brahmā, is controlled by the strength of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.' " "All right, let me see how your strength is coming. Now I shall kill you. Come on. Let me see (laughs) how your God is coming to save you." This is atheism, challenging. And when He appeared, the Hiraṇyakaśipu became a fly (laughs) in front of . . . eh? Where is such language? Even there are many Sanskrit scholars now, they cannot produce such language. That is not possible. And five thousand years before, Vyāsadeva presented this unique language. *Rāmeśvara: This is the twentieth volume of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam now printed. Twentieth volume. Prabhupāda: Number twenty. *Rāmeśvara: Of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam series. Prabhupāda: Out of sixty. Still forty. Rāmeśvara: So you have already finished two more volumes at least. Prabhupāda: So, say . . . Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda says out of sixty volumes, twenty are already printed, and . . . Prabhupāda: Twenty already printed, and two or three ready for being printed. Hayagrīva: But this is the bulk of the cantos, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Rāmeśvara: No, Tenth Canto will be very long. Hayagrīva: The Tenth . . . *Prabhupāda: Tenth Canto will be like Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , fifteen volumes, Tenth Canto. Generally six chapters a volume, eh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Depending on the size. Prabhupāda: No, generally. So there are ninety chapters. That means minimum fifteen volumes, and maybe more. We have presented Kṛṣṇa book, just a summary study, not explained. But when it will be explained, with each and every śloka , purport, then it will be not less than fifteen volumes. Tenth Chapter is the face of the Lord. We have described the legs, hands, belly, that's all, and Tenth Chapter is the face, smiling face. Therefore we should not jump over the face all at once. It must go from the legs, gradually, and then face, then forehead, then hair. Eleventh, Twelfth, Twelfth Chapter, finished, the whole body of Kṛṣṇa. Hmm. So thank you very much. Devotees: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We'd like to put . . . we have got in some other copies, and we would like to put them on the altar tonight for sandhyā ārati . These two are your copies. Prabhupāda: Ah yes, take it. Rāmeśvara: But those two are for Your Divine Grace. We have others to show the Deities. Prabhupāda: All right. All right, do it. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, how you are keeping your health? Kīrtanānanda: Pretty good. Prabhupāda: That's . . . and things are going nice? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Devotees are all anxious for you, to see. Prabhupāda: Yes. And Hayagrīva Mahārāja is being forced? (laughs) Hayagrīva: You should cane me more, Śrīla Prabhupāda Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is very cunning. Hayagrīva: I know. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: (still laughing) One may try to leave Him, but He is not going to leave you. Once come, "No, sir, you cannot go out." Just like our Ajāmila. He was devotee in the beginning, and later on, by bad association of prostitute, he fell. But Kṛṣṇa took him at the end. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). Kṛṣṇa gave him chance to give him a son. He kept the son's name Nārāyaṇa. So on account of affection of the son, he was chanting, "Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa." Just Kṛṣṇa is so kind that (laughs) "All right, this rascal is going out of My hand. All right, give him a child, Nārāyaṇa. He will chant, 'Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa,' and that will be his credit." Ajñāta*-sukṛti. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate (CC Madhya 8.70). Sukṛti , pious activities, of many millions of birth is not equal to love of Godhead. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. Tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyaṁ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā-matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate (Padyavali 14): "Purchase Kṛṣṇa consciousness anywhere it is available." What is the price? Tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam : "Only greediness, hankering. That is the price." "Oh, that I have got." "No, no. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. You cannot obtain this price even after millions of births' pious activities." All right. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Prabhupāda: This is one . . . (indistinct) Baradrāj: No, just a sample. (pause) Baradrāj: The total height is forty inches. Kṛṣṇa is twenty and Kāliya is another twenty inches. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Baradrāj: So I think we could try casting it in bronze. Prabhupāda: Bronze. Bronze will not be polished? *Baradrāj: It is the American or the Western version of the aṣṭa*-dhātu . Prabhupāda: Oh, that is all right. *Baradrāj: Or, not aṣṭa*-dhātu , but bell metal. Prabhupāda: It will be polished? Baradrāj: Yes, you can polish very nicely. Kīrtanānanda: I've never seen bronze polished. Baradrāj: It depends on the quality, grade. Generally they don't use a very high percentage of brass. Kīrtanānanda: You think it's better than brass? Baradrāj: It's a little cheaper. Prabhupāda: Bronze is very good. Kīrtanānanda: I've never seen it polished. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: I've never seen it highly polished. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the problem. Why not make brass? Baradrāj: Out of brass? Bronze is harder. Bronze is harder. Prabhupāda: No, why harder? You can make softer. Metal . . . Kīrtanānanda: Gold is softer still. It will be much more brilliant, more beautiful in brass than bronze. Baradrāj: Generally . . . *Prabhupāda: Brass, just like our Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity in Māyāpur, how dazzling. Here also, in Boston. Baradrāj: I think Kṛṣṇa is German silver. Prabhupāda: No. Maybe. Baradrāj: Not so much brass casting going on in this country. Mostly bronze casting. Prabhupāda: Bronze, but it will not be polished. We want polished. Baradrāj: I have to investigate it. Prabhupāda: Bright face. *Hari-śauri: There's a boy that was in New York who cast some brass Gaura*-Nitāi Deities in Australia. They came out very nice. You could talk to him. He might give you some good information. His name is Bhāskara. Prabhupāda: Brass is best, next to gold or silver. *Baradrāj: But I think the other deities we shall just do in concrete, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and Lalitā, Viśākhā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Baradrāj: Either concrete or hard plaster. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Baradrāj: Hard plaster, tempered plaster, hydrostone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Baradrāj: They will pay for the casting in Fiji? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Baradrāj: The Indians in Fiji will pay for the casting if we decide to cast in brass here? Prabhupāda: Anyone will pay. (laughs) Kṛṣṇa will pay. What will be the cost, let me know. It will be paid by somebody. Baradrāj: I will have to investigate. Kīrtanānanda: You will have it cast or you will cast it? Baradrāj: We'll have it cast here. Actually, one boy is working with me now from Hawaii . . . Prabhupāda: But one thing, you can send one copy of this to Vṛndāvana to take casting cost there. They're also doing. Baradrāj: Estimate. Perhaps they'll be able to do it cheaper in India. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Baradrāj: They'll definitely be able to do it cheaper in India. Prabhupāda: Then if they can do cheaper, why not cast there? Baradrāj: The transport. Prabhupāda: Transport is the same. You have to transport from here, they will have to transport from . . . *Baradrāj: Hmm. Nanda*-kiśora, or someone else? Prabhupāda: You send to Akṣayānanda. Baradrāj: Akṣayānanda. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja said there is no necessity for endeavoring for economic development. Very difficult to understand this philosophy. Hari-śauri: People don't know how they'll survive if they don't get money. Prabhupāda: No. We are actual examples. We are not after economic development, but we are after following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. Nalinīkaṇṭha: People criticize us sometimes because they always see . . . Prabhupāda: No, what do we care for them? We go on with our own business. Baradrāj: Actually, they are all envious because they see that without working we are getting such nice facility. Prabhupāda: No, we are working, but working for Kṛṣṇa. Baradrāj: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is the difference. *Rādhā*-vallabha: I went to the bank the other day to take out some money for the Press, and I took out a few thousand dollars. I had to take it in small bills. And there were karmīs there, and they were yelling, "They should be thrown out of town!" Prabhupāda: They said? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes, they were very angry, because they don't make that much money in over two months. Prabhupāda: The Communists also, they are envious of these capitalists. Hari-śauri: The rich. "Make the rich pay," that's their slogan. *Rādhā*-vallabha: But the leaders of the Communists are rich. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: The leaders of the Communists are all rich, and the people don't notice. Hari-śauri: Andha , blind. Prabhupāda: That Russia, that, what is that, Communist leader? Nikolien? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Nikolien? Lenin? Breshnev? Hṛdayānanda: Kruschev? *Prabhupāda: Kruschev. Kruschev. He was making money, therefore he was driven out. His son*-in-law, his sons, were being employed, neopolism, what is called? Kīrtanānanda: Nepotism. Prabhupāda: Nepotism. That is human nature. Hari-śauri: They said he was becoming too friendly with the West, getting too many Western ideas. Prabhupāda: Who? Hari-śauri: Kruschev. So they kicked him out. (knock at the door) Prabhupāda: Yes? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Answer the door. Hari-śauri: In England, their whole difficulty with the labor . . . (door is opened) Prabhupāda: Let him in. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It's Govinda dāsī. Tell her to come in. Hari-śauri: But the union problem they have in England, that's why the whole country now is in disruption, because the labor is always on strike. They did a survey, and they found out that all the major union leaders are Communists. Prabhupāda: And they're making money. Hari-śauri: When I was there I remember every month there would be a major strike in the car industry, in the shipping industry. All the major industries there was always a major strike every . . . and it would completely devastate the economy. Hṛdayānanda: The foreign businesses no longer have confidence in England, because if they make some order maybe it will not be fulfilled. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hṛdayānanda: The foreign business no longer has confidence. I heard that England had sold military weapons to Israel, and when Israel was fighting the war they called England, "Immediately send replacements for the weapons." "No, I'm sorry, we are on strike, there's no . . . we cannot send replacements." So in this way there is no longer confidence in England for business, international business. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Now in South America it has become fashionable . . . there are many, many wealthy businessmen living there. So terrorists will kidnap a businessman and then send a letter to the company in the United States or in that country, stating that, "If you do not send us such and such million dollars, we will kill him." So in this way the terrorists are getting millions of dollars by kidnapping big men. Hṛdayānanda: Businessmen. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It's happening quite often in South America now. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's going on everywhere. There was a . . . John Paul Getty's nephew in Italy, he was taken by kidnappers, and they petitioned Getty, "Give us so many millions of dollars, otherwise we'll kill your nephew." So he refused. So after a long, long time the nephew was returned somehow or other, and one of the times when they demanded a ransom, they chopped off his right ear and put it in an envelope and sent it through the post, "This is proof that we have your nephew. Now give us money." And still he refused. And then eventually the boy was returned, minus his ear. Hṛdayānanda: As you were saying, you were just saying Prabhupāda, that even when they have so much money they want more. This man is one of the richest men in the world, and for his own family member he would not pay some money to save him. Prabhupāda: Who is that man? Hari-śauri: Getty. He just died. Hṛdayānanda: Just a few days ago he died. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In England. One of the richest men in the world. Hṛdayānanda: Two of the richest Americans have just died. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Howard Hughes. Howard Hughes was considered the richest man in the country, and they found him dying in a hotel room of malnutrition. Hṛdayānanda: He had become so afraid of death that he would wear a mask over his face to avoid germs, and he would be changing his clothes constantly, and he was living terrified of dying and losing his money. So in this way, in his last several years he became mad, just with fear that he was going to die. (pause) Prabhupāda: What is your next publication? Hṛdayānanda: Mine? Prabhupāda: Portuguese and Spanish? *Hṛdayānanda: In a few days we will be sending to the printer a complete Portuguese Bhagavad*-gītā and Spanish Kṛṣṇa Book . I think within one week perhaps we will have. After one or two weeks, we will send both to the printer. Prabhupāda: Where is the editorial department? Hṛdayānanda: Here. That's why I'm here. For Spanish and also Portuguese. I just received information that in Caracas they were selling every day one thousand Bhāgavatams . Devotees: Wow! Prabhupāda: What is the price? Hṛdayānanda: Each book about two and a half dollars. Prabhupāda: That means about three thousand dollars daily? *Rādhā*-vallabha: That's very big. Hṛdayānanda: And they have been defeated by Mexico. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Mexico is selling more? *Hṛdayānanda: Yes. This month . . . last month in Mexico they sent in for the month $23,000, for a month. Now the . . . all of South America combined this month has almost defeated Rādhā*-Dāmodara. (Prabhupāda laughs) Almost on the same level now, South America. Prabhupāda: (chuckling) This competition must go on. (laughter) That is tangible. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: That is a fulfil . . . (break) (end) Prabhupāda: This is one . . . (indistinct) Baradrāj: No, just a sample. (pause) Baradrāj: The total height is forty inches. Kṛṣṇa is twenty and Kāliya is another twenty inches. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Baradrāj: So I think we could try casting it in bronze. Prabhupāda: Bronze. Bronze will not be polished? *Baradrāj: It is the American or the Western version of the aṣṭa*-dhātu . Prabhupāda: Oh, that is all right. *Baradrāj: Or, not aṣṭa*-dhātu , but bell metal. Prabhupāda: It will be polished? Baradrāj: Yes, you can polish very nicely. Kīrtanānanda: I've never seen bronze polished. Baradrāj: It depends on the quality, grade. Generally they don't use a very high percentage of brass. Kīrtanānanda: You think it's better than brass? Baradrāj: It's a little cheaper. Prabhupāda: Bronze is very good. Kīrtanānanda: I've never seen it polished. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: I've never seen it highly polished. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the problem. Why not make brass? Baradrāj: Out of brass? Bronze is harder. Bronze is harder. Prabhupāda: No, why harder? You can make softer. Metal . . . Kīrtanānanda: Gold is softer still. It will be much more brilliant, more beautiful in brass than bronze. Baradrāj: Generally . . . *Prabhupāda: Brass, just like our Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity in Māyāpur, how dazzling. Here also, in Boston. Baradrāj: I think Kṛṣṇa is German silver. Prabhupāda: No. Maybe. Baradrāj: Not so much brass casting going on in this country. Mostly bronze casting. Prabhupāda: Bronze, but it will not be polished. We want polished. Baradrāj: I have to investigate it. Prabhupāda: Bright face. *Hari-śauri: There's a boy that was in New York who cast some brass Gaura*-Nitāi Deities in Australia. They came out very nice. You could talk to him. He might give you some good information. His name is Bhāskara. Prabhupāda: Brass is best, next to gold or silver. *Baradrāj: But I think the other deities we shall just do in concrete, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and Lalitā, Viśākhā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Baradrāj: Either concrete or hard plaster. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Baradrāj: Hard plaster, tempered plaster, hydrostone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Baradrāj: They will pay for the casting in Fiji? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Baradrāj: The Indians in Fiji will pay for the casting if we decide to cast in brass here? Prabhupāda: Anyone will pay. (laughs) Kṛṣṇa will pay. What will be the cost, let me know. It will be paid by somebody. Baradrāj: I will have to investigate. Kīrtanānanda: You will have it cast or you will cast it? Baradrāj: We'll have it cast here. Actually, one boy is working with me now from Hawaii . . . Prabhupāda: But one thing, you can send one copy of this to Vṛndāvana to take casting cost there. They're also doing. Baradrāj: Estimate. Perhaps they'll be able to do it cheaper in India. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Baradrāj: They'll definitely be able to do it cheaper in India. Prabhupāda: Then if they can do cheaper, why not cast there? Baradrāj: The transport. Prabhupāda: Transport is the same. You have to transport from here, they will have to transport from . . . *Baradrāj: Hmm. Nanda*-kiśora, or someone else? Prabhupāda: You send to Akṣayānanda. Baradrāj: Akṣayānanda. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja said there is no necessity for endeavoring for economic development. Very difficult to understand this philosophy. Hari-śauri: People don't know how they'll survive if they don't get money. Prabhupāda: No. We are actual examples. We are not after economic development, but we are after following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. Nalinīkaṇṭha: People criticize us sometimes because they always see . . . Prabhupāda: No, what do we care for them? We go on with our own business. Baradrāj: Actually, they are all envious because they see that without working we are getting such nice facility. Prabhupāda: No, we are working, but working for Kṛṣṇa. Baradrāj: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is the difference. *Rādhā*-vallabha: I went to the bank the other day to take out some money for the Press, and I took out a few thousand dollars. I had to take it in small bills. And there were karmīs there, and they were yelling, "They should be thrown out of town!" Prabhupāda: They said? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes, they were very angry, because they don't make that much money in over two months. Prabhupāda: The Communists also, they are envious of these capitalists. Hari-śauri: The rich. "Make the rich pay," that's their slogan. *Rādhā*-vallabha: But the leaders of the Communists are rich. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: The leaders of the Communists are all rich, and the people don't notice. Hari-śauri: Andha , blind. Prabhupāda: That Russia, that, what is that, Communist leader? Nikolien? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Nikolien? Lenin? Breshnev? Hṛdayānanda: Kruschev? *Prabhupāda: Kruschev. Kruschev. He was making money, therefore he was driven out. His son*-in-law, his sons, were being employed, neopolism, what is called? Kīrtanānanda: Nepotism. Prabhupāda: Nepotism. That is human nature. Hari-śauri: They said he was becoming too friendly with the West, getting too many Western ideas. Prabhupāda: Who? Hari-śauri: Kruschev. So they kicked him out. (knock at the door) Prabhupāda: Yes? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Answer the door. Hari-śauri: In England, their whole difficulty with the labor . . . (door is opened) Prabhupāda: Let him in. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It's Govinda dāsī. Tell her to come in. Hari-śauri: But the union problem they have in England, that's why the whole country now is in disruption, because the labor is always on strike. They did a survey, and they found out that all the major union leaders are Communists. Prabhupāda: And they're making money. Hari-śauri: When I was there I remember every month there would be a major strike in the car industry, in the shipping industry. All the major industries there was always a major strike every . . . and it would completely devastate the economy. Hṛdayānanda: The foreign businesses no longer have confidence in England, because if they make some order maybe it will not be fulfilled. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hṛdayānanda: The foreign business no longer has confidence. I heard that England had sold military weapons to Israel, and when Israel was fighting the war they called England, "Immediately send replacements for the weapons." "No, I'm sorry, we are on strike, there's no . . . we cannot send replacements." So in this way there is no longer confidence in England for business, international business. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Now in South America it has become fashionable . . . there are many, many wealthy businessmen living there. So terrorists will kidnap a businessman and then send a letter to the company in the United States or in that country, stating that, "If you do not send us such and such million dollars, we will kill him." So in this way the terrorists are getting millions of dollars by kidnapping big men. Hṛdayānanda: Businessmen. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It's happening quite often in South America now. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's going on everywhere. There was a . . . John Paul Getty's nephew in Italy, he was taken by kidnappers, and they petitioned Getty, "Give us so many millions of dollars, otherwise we'll kill your nephew." So he refused. So after a long, long time the nephew was returned somehow or other, and one of the times when they demanded a ransom, they chopped off his right ear and put it in an envelope and sent it through the post, "This is proof that we have your nephew. Now give us money." And still he refused. And then eventually the boy was returned, minus his ear. Hṛdayānanda: As you were saying, you were just saying Prabhupāda, that even when they have so much money they want more. This man is one of the richest men in the world, and for his own family member he would not pay some money to save him. Prabhupāda: Who is that man? Hari-śauri: Getty. He just died. Hṛdayānanda: Just a few days ago he died. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In England. One of the richest men in the world. Hṛdayānanda: Two of the richest Americans have just died. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Howard Hughes. Howard Hughes was considered the richest man in the country, and they found him dying in a hotel room of malnutrition. Hṛdayānanda: He had become so afraid of death that he would wear a mask over his face to avoid germs, and he would be changing his clothes constantly, and he was living terrified of dying and losing his money. So in this way, in his last several years he became mad, just with fear that he was going to die. (pause) Prabhupāda: What is your next publication? Hṛdayānanda: Mine? Prabhupāda: Portuguese and Spanish? *Hṛdayānanda: In a few days we will be sending to the printer a complete Portuguese Bhagavad*-gītā and Spanish Kṛṣṇa Book . I think within one week perhaps we will have. After one or two weeks, we will send both to the printer. Prabhupāda: Where is the editorial department? Hṛdayānanda: Here. That's why I'm here. For Spanish and also Portuguese. I just received information that in Caracas they were selling every day one thousand Bhāgavatams . Devotees: Wow! Prabhupāda: What is the price? Hṛdayānanda: Each book about two and a half dollars. Prabhupāda: That means about three thousand dollars daily? *Rādhā*-vallabha: That's very big. Hṛdayānanda: And they have been defeated by Mexico. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Mexico is selling more? *Hṛdayānanda: Yes. This month . . . last month in Mexico they sent in for the month $23,000, for a month. Now the . . . all of South America combined this month has almost defeated Rādhā*-Dāmodara. (Prabhupāda laughs) Almost on the same level now, South America. Prabhupāda: (chuckling) This competition must go on. (laughter) That is tangible. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: That is a fulfil . . . (break) (end) (Jackie Vaughn - Black Congressman) Lekhaśravantī (Walter Reuther's daughter): This is Jackie Vaughn. He's a member of the House of Representatives of Michigan. He's come to speak to you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Lekhaśravantī: He came also last year. He's very impressed by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is black, and we worship Him. (laughter) You have seen our Deity? Yes. Kṛṣṇa is from your community. (Prabhupāda laughs) There is no question of black and white. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above the skin—the soul which is there. Either he's black or white or yellow, it doesn't matter. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). This is the first education, that do not take the body, but the living force within the body. That is important; we have to understand that. We are talking from that platform. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult, because people are very much absorbed with bodily concept of life. But our philosophy begins from that platform where there is no more bodily concept of life. Therefore it is little difficult. (pause) Prabhupāda: So any question also? Śrutakīrti: You've been reading from Prabhupāda's books? Jackie Vaughn: Yes. I continue to search. Śrutakīrti: If you have any questions, you can ask him. Jackie Vaughn: The last time I was here you were kind enough to address to the basic point—we're in the world, and yet how can we not be a part of the world. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: He says we're in the world, but how can we be aloof from it? How can we not be a part of it? Prabhupāda: It is knowledge. Just like we are moving with this body, but still we know perfectly well that we are not this body. Just like you may move in your car, but you are perfectly aware that you are not the car. When you drive on your car, do you not know that you are not the car, car is different from you? Huh? Don't you know that? Jackie Vaughn: Right. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, by cultivation of knowledge one can remain in the car and still he can know that he is not the car. The example is given: just like coconut. Coconut, within the shell, green shell, there is coconut. And when it is dry, if you move you'll understand that the coconut is now separate—(makes sound) cut*-cut-cut-cut. At that time it is taken away for extracting oil. So this is practical. In the beginning, green coconut, nobody can perceive that there is coconut within the shell and it can be separated. But at a time it can be known that the coconut is separated from the shell, and if you move it, it will make cut-cut-cut. That is the process. It is by action. When after hearing theoretical that you are separate from this body, if you cultivate that knowledge, then time will come when you'll perceive practically that we are not this body. That means in higher stage of spiritual consciousness the bodily activities, material bodily activities, will stop. Only Kṛṣṇa activities will go on. So that just like the coconut fruit is separate from the shell, similarly, even living within this body he will be separated from the body. Jīvan mukta sa ucyate. The Sanskrit word is he's liberated even in this life, while living in this body. That requires cultivation of the knowledge and practical activities. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not all of a sudden, but there is stage when it will be experienced that he is not this body, he is separate from the body. Jackie Vaughn: My work, I try to do more for people, especially poor people. Prabhupāda: Everyone tries. That is not a particular job for you. Everyone is trying; the cats and dogs, they are also trying. The cat also very much anxious to give protection to the cubs, innocent, helpless. The dog also giving. The birds, they're bringing food for the offspring, and as soon as the mother comes, they become very much engladdened, "Oh, here is food, here is food." And they, with the mouth, they . . . so this kind of sentiment is there even in the cats, dogs, animals, birds, beasts. That is natural. But we do not know how to do actual welfare activity. Somebody's engaged with his family. Somebody is engaged with his own body. Somebody . . . this is only development of consciousness. The animal, they are interested with the body, himself. The human being, they are interested with the extension of the body. Just like I am alone now. Now when I become, you young men, then I have got my wife, then my interest is also for my wife. The wife's interest is for the husband. In this way, children; *then interest extended: husband, wife, children. Then, this is family*-wise. Then little advancement, for the society. Little advancement, community. Just like in your country, the sense of black community, white community. Then, above that, for the nation. When there is war between America and other nation, then you black and white people forget the small interest for national interest. You advance to fight, to lay down your life. So in this way we can make progress, but such progress is not perfection. Such progress is not perfection. The example is given, just like there is tree, and the whole tree is full of branches, twigs and leaves and flowers and fruits. So somebody is watering the fruit, somebody is watering the leaf, somebody is watering the branches, somebody the twigs, but everyone is improper. One who is watering the root, he's perfect. He knows how to do things. If you water the root of the tree, it will go to the twigs, it will go to the leaves, it will go to the fruit, it will go to the flower. One who does not know the root, however he might be working very diligently for the poor humanity or community or society, they will never be successful to gain the result—peace and prosperity. They are forgetting the root. And root is God. So they must put water into the root. Then it will be all right. Otherwise, it will be all failure. The history of the world is like that. They are trying for the nation, for the society, for the community and for the family, but everything has become unsuccessful. Jackie Vaughn: I suppose we could use the same analogy for black and white getting together. Ofttimes, we all become impatient because of the progress appears to be so very, very slow. Prabhupāda: Slow, but sure, that is wanted. If you are slow, it is not bad, but it must be sure. But if you become very busy without any surety, then what is this? Simply waste of time. Slow . . . there is English word, "Slow but sure." Jackie Vaughn: Slow but sure. Prabhupāda: Sure. So what we are proposing, that is sure success. And all other things, they are very busy but no success. This is the difference. So what is the use of that business if you are going to be failure? So we see from the history these attempts have always been failure. Now this man who constructed this house, he never thought that I shall come here to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So his attempt is failure. Jackie Vaughn: Neither did he envision I would come here to hear you. Prabhupāda: (laughs) So these small affairs, they'll be failure. Whatever they are busy now in the material world, everything will be failure. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if you execute a little bit of it, it can save you from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. (to devotee) Find out this verse. Devotee: 2.40. Hari-śauri: "In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear." Prabhupāda: Purport. Hari-śauri: Purport: "Activity in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or acting for the benefit of Kṛṣṇa without expectation of sense gratification, is the highest transcendental quality of work. Even a small beginning of such activity finds no impediment, nor can that small beginning be lost at any stage. Any work begun on the material plane has to be completed, otherwise the whole attempt becomes a failure. But any work begun in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has a permanent effect, even though not finished. The performer of such work is therefore not at a loss even if his work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is incomplete. One percent done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness bears permanent results, so that the next beginning is from the point of two percent; *whereas, in material activity, without one*-hundred-percent success, there is no profit. Ajāmila performed his duty in some percentage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but the result he enjoyed at the end was one hundred percent, by the grace of the Lord. There is a nice verse in this connection in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: 'If someone gives up sense-gratificatory pursuits and works in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part? And, what gain if one performs his material activities perfectly?' (SB 1.5.17) Or, as the Christians say, 'What profiteth a man if he gains the whole world yet suffers the loss of his eternal soul?' Material activities and their results end with the body. But work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness carries the person again to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even after the loss of the body. At least one is sure to have a chance in the next life of being born again as a human being, either in the family of a great cultured brāhmaṇa or in a rich aristocratic family, that will give one a further chance for elevation. That is the unique quality of work done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Prabhupāda: So everyone should join this movement and be sure of his activity, result, good result. That is real United Nation—to work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Every, any department, if we work for Kṛṣṇa, then it is perfect. That is sure. And it is open to everyone. Now this American government is giving so much welfare contribution, but still they are not happy. Hmm? Huge amount is spent in welfare activities, but still they are dissatisfied. Then how you can make them satisfied? The American government is practically giving money to the sufferers, and why they are still suffering? What is the answer? Jackie Vaughn: It's not clear. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda is saying that even though the American government is giving so much money to suffering people, still the suffering is there, there's no improvement in the condition. So why? What is the cause? What is the answer? Jackie Vaughn: I think it's all in the theory. We are not making first things first. Prabhupāda: That means whatever we do, we do in ignorance. You do not know what is the first thing or what to do first. That we are correcting. Here is the first thing: pour water in the root. Jackie Vaughn: Right. Prabhupāda: We are correcting—Kṛṣṇa, or God, then everything will be all right. Otherwise failure. Now you American people, you write, "In God We Trust." Huh? But if I ask you "What is God?" you cannot reply. Then how do you trust in God? Blindly. If we trust in God, we must know that God is actually the only trustworthy person. Then if I put my trust in Him, that is sensible. But if I do not know what is God, no idea, and if we simply write, "In God We Trust," what is this? This is slogan. But actually people are becoming godless. In school, colleges, they are prohibiting, "Don't talk of God." Do they not? Jayatīrtha: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. And in the bills they are writing the . . . why this hypocrisy? Why this hypocrisy? In the school, colleges, you are forbidding, "Don't talk of God," and on the bills you are writing, "In God We Trust." That means if the bill is not paid, don't be dissatisfied; you trust in God. (laughs) Although I'm giving you a piece of paper, don't hesitate to take it. Trust in God, it will be paid. They write, "I promise to pay," but people may not have faith in this word. Actually, I'm paying you hundred rupees or a thousand rupees' worth currency note, but actually it is paper. But only on faith and trust I'm accepting it, it is one thousand dollars. That much. In last war, the Germany, marks note were thrown in the street. And the bunch of note, taken to the confectioner, "Give me a piece of bread," there is no bread; they throw away. It happened, actually. So these notes are accepted on the understanding that the government will pay. But time may be there when government may be not able to pay. And it has become practically experienced in the last war. So everything should be done scientifically. If we say that in God we trust, then we must know what is God, whether actually we can put our faith and trust in Him, whether He is trustworthy, what is that God. This science should be introduced. There is a science; we are preaching that science. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to teach Kṛṣṇa science, science of Kṛṣṇa, science of God. So the government should take up, American government, and cooperate with us, teach the people the science of God. Then it will be a great, benevolent welfare activity. Simply giving their money to the poor, to the needy, will not help them. Jackie Vaughn: That's an immediate need, and . . . Prabhupāda: Immediate, you can think like that, but there is no benefit, immediate or belated. There is no actual benefit. The unmarried girls are given this welfare . . . what is called? Jackie Vaughn: Welfare check. Prabhupāda: But still they are killing their children, becoming more and more involved in sinful activities. Jackie Vaughn: As a lawmaker, I'd like to change that whole, what we call, vicious cycle. *Prabhupāda: You can change, but if you do not change for the real good, then time will come, another change, another change. That is going on. Just like in Russia they wanted to change. They brought in revolution. But what is changed? They are still begging grains from America. So what is the use of that change? If you have to beg from other country for your food, then what is the benefit of such change? So this is going on: one thing established, and again it is changed. That is described in the śāstra: punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Chewing the chewed. Just like sugarcane. One has taken the juice by chewing and thrown it in the street, and somebody again takes it and chew it, what he will get it? It is already chewed. Experiment. So all, everything has been experimented. Big, big empires, big, big society, big, big nation. That Hitler, he wanted to make something big. Napoleon wanted to make something big. Nothing big has been done. Where is Napoleon? Where is Hitler? So these are all temporary attempts. It is sure to be failure. Because they do not know how to do things. That is the defect. They are simply imagining, concoction. Here is a practical and sure proposal in the Bhagavad-gītā. God comes, and He's giving personal instruction, that "Do things like this." Your economic problem, your political problem, your social problem, everything, you ask any question, any problem, the answer is there, perfect. All problems. So why people should not take this perfect answer to all problems? That is intelligence. Experiment we have made so many, materially. They have all failed. We were under British rule. So where is that British rule now? And before that, there was Roman Empire, Carthagian Empire, Egyptian Empire—so many—Mogul Empire, then British Empire, now your American Empire. But these things will not help. Jackie Vaughn: Every one of our presidential candidates is continuing to talk in the same vein, promising and promising all of a temporary nature of solution to our problems. Prabhupāda: No. Solution is here, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You take this movement after studying it scrutinizingly. You'll find, "Yes, this is the only movement for solution of all problems." Jackie Vaughn: I think we go back to what you said at the beginning: we trust primarily in the dollar, "In God We Trust." Prabhupāda: That is only slogan . . . Jackie Vaughn: Yeah, right. Prabhupāda: . . . but if we trust somebody when we know, "Yes, he is trustworthy," that is better. Blindly trusting may not endure. But knowingly trust, that will be beneficial. Jackie Vaughn: As a lawmaker for the State of Michigan, every day I'm struggling. I know what you're saying. I would like to. And then my surrounding is what they call much more practical. Prabhupāda: No, it is also practical. We do not propose anything which is impractical. Jackie Vaughn: But it's so . . . Prabhupāda: What do you think in our movement is impractical? I have given you a practical example, that you are paying so much money to the suffering women, especially who have got children but no husband. So, but what is the result? They're not satisfied. They're still committing sinful activity. So the money, giving money, we're giving, is no solution. That is practical. And here, the same girl, I do not give any money, but by Kṛṣṇa consciousness they're satisfied. It is practical. So therefore people should be enlightened with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then problems will be solved. Otherwise, immediately you give him some money, that money will be spent and no satisfaction. This is failure. Our monetary problem . . . actually, we have no monetary problem. Kṛṣṇa has given us money. Our expenditure is more than, I think, two hundred thousand dollars daily. Hmm? What is our total expenditure, can anyone say? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, with all the construction, perhaps it's very high. *Prabhupāda: But we are getting money. We have no money, but still we can sit down in such a nice palace. This is practical. So money is not problem. The problem is godlessness. So as soon as there is godlessness, there will be suffering, different types of suffering. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā: Problem—māyā is problem. Hari-śauri: "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Hari-śauri: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead has innumerable energies, and all of these energies are divine. Although the living entities are part of His energies, and are therefore divine, due to contact with material energy their original superior power is covered. Being thus covered by material energy, one cannot possibly overcome its influence. As previously stated, both the material and spiritual natures, being emanations from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are eternal. The living entities belong to the eternal superior nature of the Lord, but due to contamination by the inferior nature, matter, their illusion is also eternal. The conditioned soul is therefore called nitya*-baddha, or eternally conditioned. No one can trace out the history of his becoming conditioned at a certain date in material history. Consequently, his release from the clutches of material nature is very difficult, even though that material nature is an inferior energy, because material energy is ultimately conducted by the Supreme Will, which the living entity cannot overcome. Inferior material nature is defined herein as divine nature due to its divine connection and movement by the divine will. Being conducted by the divine will, material nature, although inferior, acts so wonderfully in the construction and destruction of the cosmic manifestation that the Vedas confirm this as follows: māyāṁ tu prakṛtiṁ vidyān māyinaṁ tu maheśvaram (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 4.10). Although māyā is false and temporary, the background of māyā is the supreme magician, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is Maheśvara, the supreme controller. "Another meaning of guṇa is 'rope.' It is to be understood that the conditioned soul is tightly bound by the ropes of illusion. A man bound by the hands and feet cannot free himself. He must be helped by a person who is unbound, because the bound cannot help the bound; the rescuer must be liberated. Therefore only Lord Kṛṣṇa or His bona fide representative the spiritual master can release the conditioned soul. Without such superior help, one cannot be freed from the bondage of material nature. Devotional service, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can help one gain such release. Kṛṣṇa, being the Lord of the illusory energy, can order this insurmountable energy to release the conditioned soul. He orders this release out of His causeless mercy on the surrendered soul and out of His paternal affection for the living entity, who is originally a beloved son of the Lord. Therefore surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord is the only means to get free from the clutches of the stringent material nature. *"The words mām eva are also significant. Mām means unto Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, only, and not Brahmā or Śiva. Although Brahmā and Śiva are greatly elevated and are almost on the level of Viṣṇu, it is not possible for such incarnations of rajo*-guṇa (passion) and tamo-guṇa (ignorance) to release the conditioned soul from the clutches of māyā. In other words, both Brahmā and Śiva are also under the influence of māyā. Only Viṣṇu is the master of māyā. Therefore He alone can give release to the conditioned soul. The Vedas confirm this in the phrase tvam eva viditvā, or 'Freedom is possible only by understanding Kṛṣṇa.' Even Lord Śiva affirms that liberation can be achieved only by the mercy of Viṣṇu. Lord Śiva says, mukti-pradātā sarveṣāṁ viṣṇur eva na saṁśayaḥ: 'There is no doubt that Viṣṇu is the deliverer of liberation for everyone.' " Prabhupāda: Let start some . . . the institution is already there. We are conducting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if the government cooperates that a certain number of students must be trained up scientifically what is the meaning of God, that will be very much beneficial to the state or to the country. We can give solution for any problem. "We" means Kṛṣṇa. We are simply preaching Kṛṣṇa's message. Kṛṣṇa means God. Kṛṣṇa means "black" also. Kṛṣṇa, this word, (chuckles) means "black" also. You are following? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another meaning of kṛṣṇa is blackish. Jackie Vaughn: Black is beautiful? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said, "Black is beautiful?" *Prabhupāda: Why not? He's the most beautiful. Otherwise, why people are attracted? There is a verse in Brahma*-saṁhitā: kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobham; *barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda*-sundarāṅgam (BS 5.30). He has got one peacock feather on His head, and He's blackish, but wonderfully beautiful. These words are used. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya. He's so beautiful that thousands of Cupids cannot be compared with His beauty. Cupid is understood to be the most beautiful person within this universe. You know Cupid? Yes. He enchants by beauty. But Kṛṣṇa's beauty is so great that millions of beauty, kandarpa, or Cupid, cannot be compared with Him. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi (BS 5.30). It is a question of attraction. It is not a question of black and white. Attraction. So unless Kṛṣṇa is beautiful, why He has got so many millions of devotees? This very word is kandarpa-koṭi. Barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam. His blackness is compared with the black cloud. Asita-ambuda. Ambuda means the cloud. The black cloud is full of water. When there is black cloud in the sky, you can be sure that the rain is going to fall down. Not the white cloud. White cloud means no water. Is it not? (chuckles) *So you understand this philosophy and add water to the suffering humanity. They are suffering in the burning, blazing fire of material existence. So blazing fire can be extinguished when the water falls from the sky, not by your fire brigade. When there is blazing fire in the forest, it is beyond your control. You cannot get there fire brigade. So these small attempts of fire brigade is useless to extinguish the blazing fire of this material existence. The water must come from the cloud. That is by Kṛṣṇa's grace. You have no control over the cloud. But that water wanted. Not your fire brigade water, when there is all around blazing fire. The small fire brigade—(imitates bell) dung*-dung-dung-dung-dung. It can vibrate very loudly—dung-dung-dung—"I'm going to, going to," but they'll go when everything finished. That is practical. I have seen in India. There was a fire in a house, and they came late, when the business is finished. And still they're insisting, "We shall pour some water." (laughter) Everyone asked them that "What is the use of?" "No, this is our system." (laughter) The house is burnt into ashes, and they are looking the formality, "Yes, we must put some water," so that they can write in their books, "Here we attended the fire and we have . . ." (laughter) This cheating is going on. In every problem, this kind of cheating is going on. Official, that's all. The same example: you ask to the charity-taker of welfare activities. The fire is going on, but officially the government satisfied, "Yes, we are after all pouring water." So what is the use of pouring water if the fire is going on? But officially, that's all. We must see that the purpose is being carried. No. The house is burnt into ashes, but we are satisfied that our fire brigade man has poured some water, that's all. They do not know that they cannot do any benefit to anyone by this imperfect process. If the whole money of the government is given to us, we can show result within six months how it is beneficial. Will the government give us money? (pause) Prabhupāda: Actually, people do not want to trust in God. That is the real fact. But this writing of slogan is a formal . . . (indistinct) . . . at the present moment, nobody has got any idea of God nor faith in God. What do you think? Hari-śauri: Nobody's got any . . .? Prabhupāda: Idea of God, and what to speak of faith in God, or trust in God. Jackie Vaughn: It's true. Very little faith. "In God We Trust," no. Your original statement. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda wrote one letter to the secretary of the President explaining that "You write on your bills 'In God We Trust,' but who is it that knows about God?" So he was asking if it was possible for the government, they could give us some aid and we would educate. We can educate the people. Prabhupāda: No, I did not ask for any aid. Hari-śauri: Oh. If they would . . . Prabhupāda: You can get the copy. I never asked for any aid. Hari-śauri: No, I didn't mean monetary or anything like that. (pause) (Hari-śauri goes to get letter) Prabhupāda: Read it. *Mādhavānanda: "Personal Secretary to the President, Office of the President of the United States, White House, Washington, D.C. Dear Sir: On your new two*-dollar note it is stated 'In God We Trust,' and directly beneath, 'Declaration of Independence, 1776.' On the two-hundredth anniversary of this occasion, why not begin teaching the science of God as described in the Vedic literatures, like the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is authorized and appreciated by all learned professors in the universities throughout the whole world? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on since 1966 throughout the whole world, especially in the United States of America. It is a great fortune for the American people that they trust in God. Why shouldn't this spiritual education be given to the American people in an organized way? The whole world is going down and becoming godless. If the American people, who trust in God constitutionally, take this movement seriously, it will be a great service to the human society. We are prepared to cooperate in this connection if the American government takes it very seriously. Awaiting your reply with interest. Yours sincerely, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami." Dated May 9th. Jackie Vaughn: Any answer? Mādhavānanda: No reply. Hari-śauri: That was three weeks back. Mādhavānanda: Four weeks; over a month. Hari-śauri: May 19th? Mādhavānanda: May 9th. Hari-śauri: Oh. (pause) Prabhupāda: Why they have not replied? Jackie Vaughn: I suppose you were asking too much. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Too much? So am I wrong? Jackie Vaughn: No, not at all. Prabhupāda: I'm not asking for money. Jackie Vaughn: I know. But you are doing away with our approach to dealing with problems. As you pointed out so well, it's always piecemeal, of a temporary nature. I do it in Lansing. We have a problem, we patch it up, of a temporary nature. We talk to do this, as a quick answer, solution, and we go away feeling better, that we have at least made, as we say, a step in the right direction. Next year, we'll be back with the same problem. I have this problem. Prabhupāda: Everyone. Jackie Vaughn: Everyone. Monday I'll go back to the State Capitol . . . *Prabhupāda: That is explained, daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). We think, "Now this problem is solved," but actually it is not solved; *it has created another problem. Therefore this word is used, daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā. You . . . the problems are so great that you cannot solve it. Jackie Vaughn: Each year it mounts. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jackie Vaughn: It's getting larger and larger, almost impossible to solve. Prabhupāda: Exactly, yes. Jackie Vaughn: Each year we say, "This year is worse than any year in the history." Prabhupāda: See, this is the experienced government officer's statement. Therefore the word is used, duratyayā. What is the meaning of duratyayā? Hari-śauri: "Very difficult to overcome." Jackie Vaughn: I submit, I contribute to that delinquency. I help every day, trying to find answers, always of a temporary nature. Prabhupāda: So you kindly give little attention to this movement. It will solve all the problems. You have read some of our books? No. Jackie Vaughn: Yes. *Prabhupāda: We have all answers to the problems in the Bhagavad*-gītā, but who is hearing us? The problems and the solutions, they are all mentioned. They are given very nicely. But we do not take it. We create our own solution, imperfect solution. Jackie Vaughn: I'm struggling. Prabhupāda: Everyone is struggling. Just like you pour water on the leaf of the tree, and still it will fall down. He's perplexed, that "I am giving water to the leaf every day. How it is that it is dying?" But he never thinks that "I have not done properly; therefore the leaf is dying." He does not know what is the proper way. So things, if they are not done properly, it will not produce the desired result. That is going on. (pause) Prabhupāda: (very loud kīrtana in background) You have seen our Deities? Our Deity, Kṛṣṇa? Hari-śauri: Have you seen the Deities in the temple? Jackie Vaughn: Yes. I am very fortunate. Twice I've been before you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Oh, that's nice. Jackie Vaughn: I'm very grateful. Prabhupāda: Whenever you find time, please come. Jackie Vaughn: I will. Prabhupāda: Yes. You'll get so many inspiration. (pause) Prabhupāda: The pathways in the garden, if they are occasionally washed, as far as possible, grow . . . (break) *Mādhavānanda: . . . yātrā. Today is celebration of snāna*-yātrā, so . . . (break) Hari-śauri: July 18th. *Mādhavānanda: Today is snāna*-yātrā, disappearance of Mukunda Datta and Śrīdhara Paṇḍita and full moon. Tomorrow is disappearance of Śyāmānanda Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) (Jackie Vaughn - Black Congressman) Lekhaśravantī (Walter Reuther's daughter): This is Jackie Vaughn. He's a member of the House of Representatives of Michigan. He's come to speak to you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Lekhaśravantī: He came also last year. He's very impressed by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is black, and we worship Him. (laughter) You have seen our Deity? Yes. Kṛṣṇa is from your community. (Prabhupāda laughs) There is no question of black and white. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above the skin—the soul which is there. Either he's black or white or yellow, it doesn't matter. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). This is the first education, that do not take the body, but the living force within the body. That is important; we have to understand that. We are talking from that platform. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult, because people are very much absorbed with bodily concept of life. But our philosophy begins from that platform where there is no more bodily concept of life. Therefore it is little difficult. (pause) Prabhupāda: So any question also? Śrutakīrti: You've been reading from Prabhupāda's books? Jackie Vaughn: Yes. I continue to search. Śrutakīrti: If you have any questions, you can ask him. Jackie Vaughn: The last time I was here you were kind enough to address to the basic point—we're in the world, and yet how can we not be a part of the world. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: He says we're in the world, but how can we be aloof from it? How can we not be a part of it? Prabhupāda: It is knowledge. Just like we are moving with this body, but still we know perfectly well that we are not this body. Just like you may move in your car, but you are perfectly aware that you are not the car. When you drive on your car, do you not know that you are not the car, car is different from you? Huh? Don't you know that? Jackie Vaughn: Right. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, by cultivation of knowledge one can remain in the car and still he can know that he is not the car. The example is given: just like coconut. Coconut, within the shell, green shell, there is coconut. And when it is dry, if you move you'll understand that the coconut is now separate—(makes sound) cut*-cut-cut-cut. At that time it is taken away for extracting oil. So this is practical. In the beginning, green coconut, nobody can perceive that there is coconut within the shell and it can be separated. But at a time it can be known that the coconut is separated from the shell, and if you move it, it will make cut-cut-cut. That is the process. It is by action. When after hearing theoretical that you are separate from this body, if you cultivate that knowledge, then time will come when you'll perceive practically that we are not this body. That means in higher stage of spiritual consciousness the bodily activities, material bodily activities, will stop. Only Kṛṣṇa activities will go on. So that just like the coconut fruit is separate from the shell, similarly, even living within this body he will be separated from the body. Jīvan mukta sa ucyate. The Sanskrit word is he's liberated even in this life, while living in this body. That requires cultivation of the knowledge and practical activities. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not all of a sudden, but there is stage when it will be experienced that he is not this body, he is separate from the body. Jackie Vaughn: My work, I try to do more for people, especially poor people. Prabhupāda: Everyone tries. That is not a particular job for you. Everyone is trying; the cats and dogs, they are also trying. The cat also very much anxious to give protection to the cubs, innocent, helpless. The dog also giving. The birds, they're bringing food for the offspring, and as soon as the mother comes, they become very much engladdened, "Oh, here is food, here is food." And they, with the mouth, they . . . so this kind of sentiment is there even in the cats, dogs, animals, birds, beasts. That is natural. But we do not know how to do actual welfare activity. Somebody's engaged with his family. Somebody is engaged with his own body. Somebody . . . this is only development of consciousness. The animal, they are interested with the body, himself. The human being, they are interested with the extension of the body. Just like I am alone now. Now when I become, you young men, then I have got my wife, then my interest is also for my wife. The wife's interest is for the husband. In this way, children; *then interest extended: husband, wife, children. Then, this is family*-wise. Then little advancement, for the society. Little advancement, community. Just like in your country, the sense of black community, white community. Then, above that, for the nation. When there is war between America and other nation, then you black and white people forget the small interest for national interest. You advance to fight, to lay down your life. So in this way we can make progress, but such progress is not perfection. Such progress is not perfection. The example is given, just like there is tree, and the whole tree is full of branches, twigs and leaves and flowers and fruits. So somebody is watering the fruit, somebody is watering the leaf, somebody is watering the branches, somebody the twigs, but everyone is improper. One who is watering the root, he's perfect. He knows how to do things. If you water the root of the tree, it will go to the twigs, it will go to the leaves, it will go to the fruit, it will go to the flower. One who does not know the root, however he might be working very diligently for the poor humanity or community or society, they will never be successful to gain the result—peace and prosperity. They are forgetting the root. And root is God. So they must put water into the root. Then it will be all right. Otherwise, it will be all failure. The history of the world is like that. They are trying for the nation, for the society, for the community and for the family, but everything has become unsuccessful. Jackie Vaughn: I suppose we could use the same analogy for black and white getting together. Ofttimes, we all become impatient because of the progress appears to be so very, very slow. Prabhupāda: Slow, but sure, that is wanted. If you are slow, it is not bad, but it must be sure. But if you become very busy without any surety, then what is this? Simply waste of time. Slow . . . there is English word, "Slow but sure." Jackie Vaughn: Slow but sure. Prabhupāda: Sure. So what we are proposing, that is sure success. And all other things, they are very busy but no success. This is the difference. So what is the use of that business if you are going to be failure? So we see from the history these attempts have always been failure. Now this man who constructed this house, he never thought that I shall come here to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So his attempt is failure. Jackie Vaughn: Neither did he envision I would come here to hear you. Prabhupāda: (laughs) So these small affairs, they'll be failure. Whatever they are busy now in the material world, everything will be failure. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if you execute a little bit of it, it can save you from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. (to devotee) Find out this verse. Devotee: 2.40. Hari-śauri: "In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear." Prabhupāda: Purport. Hari-śauri: Purport: "Activity in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or acting for the benefit of Kṛṣṇa without expectation of sense gratification, is the highest transcendental quality of work. Even a small beginning of such activity finds no impediment, nor can that small beginning be lost at any stage. Any work begun on the material plane has to be completed, otherwise the whole attempt becomes a failure. But any work begun in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has a permanent effect, even though not finished. The performer of such work is therefore not at a loss even if his work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is incomplete. One percent done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness bears permanent results, so that the next beginning is from the point of two percent; *whereas, in material activity, without one*-hundred-percent success, there is no profit. Ajāmila performed his duty in some percentage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but the result he enjoyed at the end was one hundred percent, by the grace of the Lord. There is a nice verse in this connection in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: 'If someone gives up sense-gratificatory pursuits and works in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part? And, what gain if one performs his material activities perfectly?' (SB 1.5.17) Or, as the Christians say, 'What profiteth a man if he gains the whole world yet suffers the loss of his eternal soul?' Material activities and their results end with the body. But work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness carries the person again to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even after the loss of the body. At least one is sure to have a chance in the next life of being born again as a human being, either in the family of a great cultured brāhmaṇa or in a rich aristocratic family, that will give one a further chance for elevation. That is the unique quality of work done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Prabhupāda: So everyone should join this movement and be sure of his activity, result, good result. That is real United Nation—to work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Every, any department, if we work for Kṛṣṇa, then it is perfect. That is sure. And it is open to everyone. Now this American government is giving so much welfare contribution, but still they are not happy. Hmm? Huge amount is spent in welfare activities, but still they are dissatisfied. Then how you can make them satisfied? The American government is practically giving money to the sufferers, and why they are still suffering? What is the answer? Jackie Vaughn: It's not clear. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda is saying that even though the American government is giving so much money to suffering people, still the suffering is there, there's no improvement in the condition. So why? What is the cause? What is the answer? Jackie Vaughn: I think it's all in the theory. We are not making first things first. Prabhupāda: That means whatever we do, we do in ignorance. You do not know what is the first thing or what to do first. That we are correcting. Here is the first thing: pour water in the root. Jackie Vaughn: Right. Prabhupāda: We are correcting—Kṛṣṇa, or God, then everything will be all right. Otherwise failure. Now you American people, you write, "In God We Trust." Huh? But if I ask you "What is God?" you cannot reply. Then how do you trust in God? Blindly. If we trust in God, we must know that God is actually the only trustworthy person. Then if I put my trust in Him, that is sensible. But if I do not know what is God, no idea, and if we simply write, "In God We Trust," what is this? This is slogan. But actually people are becoming godless. In school, colleges, they are prohibiting, "Don't talk of God." Do they not? Jayatīrtha: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. And in the bills they are writing the . . . why this hypocrisy? Why this hypocrisy? In the school, colleges, you are forbidding, "Don't talk of God," and on the bills you are writing, "In God We Trust." That means if the bill is not paid, don't be dissatisfied; you trust in God. (laughs) Although I'm giving you a piece of paper, don't hesitate to take it. Trust in God, it will be paid. They write, "I promise to pay," but people may not have faith in this word. Actually, I'm paying you hundred rupees or a thousand rupees' worth currency note, but actually it is paper. But only on faith and trust I'm accepting it, it is one thousand dollars. That much. In last war, the Germany, marks note were thrown in the street. And the bunch of note, taken to the confectioner, "Give me a piece of bread," there is no bread; they throw away. It happened, actually. So these notes are accepted on the understanding that the government will pay. But time may be there when government may be not able to pay. And it has become practically experienced in the last war. So everything should be done scientifically. If we say that in God we trust, then we must know what is God, whether actually we can put our faith and trust in Him, whether He is trustworthy, what is that God. This science should be introduced. There is a science; we are preaching that science. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to teach Kṛṣṇa science, science of Kṛṣṇa, science of God. So the government should take up, American government, and cooperate with us, teach the people the science of God. Then it will be a great, benevolent welfare activity. Simply giving their money to the poor, to the needy, will not help them. Jackie Vaughn: That's an immediate need, and . . . Prabhupāda: Immediate, you can think like that, but there is no benefit, immediate or belated. There is no actual benefit. The unmarried girls are given this welfare . . . what is called? Jackie Vaughn: Welfare check. Prabhupāda: But still they are killing their children, becoming more and more involved in sinful activities. Jackie Vaughn: As a lawmaker, I'd like to change that whole, what we call, vicious cycle. *Prabhupāda: You can change, but if you do not change for the real good, then time will come, another change, another change. That is going on. Just like in Russia they wanted to change. They brought in revolution. But what is changed? They are still begging grains from America. So what is the use of that change? If you have to beg from other country for your food, then what is the benefit of such change? So this is going on: one thing established, and again it is changed. That is described in the śāstra: punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Chewing the chewed. Just like sugarcane. One has taken the juice by chewing and thrown it in the street, and somebody again takes it and chew it, what he will get it? It is already chewed. Experiment. So all, everything has been experimented. Big, big empires, big, big society, big, big nation. That Hitler, he wanted to make something big. Napoleon wanted to make something big. Nothing big has been done. Where is Napoleon? Where is Hitler? So these are all temporary attempts. It is sure to be failure. Because they do not know how to do things. That is the defect. They are simply imagining, concoction. Here is a practical and sure proposal in the Bhagavad-gītā. God comes, and He's giving personal instruction, that "Do things like this." Your economic problem, your political problem, your social problem, everything, you ask any question, any problem, the answer is there, perfect. All problems. So why people should not take this perfect answer to all problems? That is intelligence. Experiment we have made so many, materially. They have all failed. We were under British rule. So where is that British rule now? And before that, there was Roman Empire, Carthagian Empire, Egyptian Empire—so many—Mogul Empire, then British Empire, now your American Empire. But these things will not help. Jackie Vaughn: Every one of our presidential candidates is continuing to talk in the same vein, promising and promising all of a temporary nature of solution to our problems. Prabhupāda: No. Solution is here, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You take this movement after studying it scrutinizingly. You'll find, "Yes, this is the only movement for solution of all problems." Jackie Vaughn: I think we go back to what you said at the beginning: we trust primarily in the dollar, "In God We Trust." Prabhupāda: That is only slogan . . . Jackie Vaughn: Yeah, right. Prabhupāda: . . . but if we trust somebody when we know, "Yes, he is trustworthy," that is better. Blindly trusting may not endure. But knowingly trust, that will be beneficial. Jackie Vaughn: As a lawmaker for the State of Michigan, every day I'm struggling. I know what you're saying. I would like to. And then my surrounding is what they call much more practical. Prabhupāda: No, it is also practical. We do not propose anything which is impractical. Jackie Vaughn: But it's so . . . Prabhupāda: What do you think in our movement is impractical? I have given you a practical example, that you are paying so much money to the suffering women, especially who have got children but no husband. So, but what is the result? They're not satisfied. They're still committing sinful activity. So the money, giving money, we're giving, is no solution. That is practical. And here, the same girl, I do not give any money, but by Kṛṣṇa consciousness they're satisfied. It is practical. So therefore people should be enlightened with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then problems will be solved. Otherwise, immediately you give him some money, that money will be spent and no satisfaction. This is failure. Our monetary problem . . . actually, we have no monetary problem. Kṛṣṇa has given us money. Our expenditure is more than, I think, two hundred thousand dollars daily. Hmm? What is our total expenditure, can anyone say? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, with all the construction, perhaps it's very high. *Prabhupāda: But we are getting money. We have no money, but still we can sit down in such a nice palace. This is practical. So money is not problem. The problem is godlessness. So as soon as there is godlessness, there will be suffering, different types of suffering. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā: Problem—māyā is problem. Hari-śauri: "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Hari-śauri: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead has innumerable energies, and all of these energies are divine. Although the living entities are part of His energies, and are therefore divine, due to contact with material energy their original superior power is covered. Being thus covered by material energy, one cannot possibly overcome its influence. As previously stated, both the material and spiritual natures, being emanations from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are eternal. The living entities belong to the eternal superior nature of the Lord, but due to contamination by the inferior nature, matter, their illusion is also eternal. The conditioned soul is therefore called nitya*-baddha, or eternally conditioned. No one can trace out the history of his becoming conditioned at a certain date in material history. Consequently, his release from the clutches of material nature is very difficult, even though that material nature is an inferior energy, because material energy is ultimately conducted by the Supreme Will, which the living entity cannot overcome. Inferior material nature is defined herein as divine nature due to its divine connection and movement by the divine will. Being conducted by the divine will, material nature, although inferior, acts so wonderfully in the construction and destruction of the cosmic manifestation that the Vedas confirm this as follows: māyāṁ tu prakṛtiṁ vidyān māyinaṁ tu maheśvaram (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 4.10). Although māyā is false and temporary, the background of māyā is the supreme magician, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is Maheśvara, the supreme controller. "Another meaning of guṇa is 'rope.' It is to be understood that the conditioned soul is tightly bound by the ropes of illusion. A man bound by the hands and feet cannot free himself. He must be helped by a person who is unbound, because the bound cannot help the bound; the rescuer must be liberated. Therefore only Lord Kṛṣṇa or His bona fide representative the spiritual master can release the conditioned soul. Without such superior help, one cannot be freed from the bondage of material nature. Devotional service, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can help one gain such release. Kṛṣṇa, being the Lord of the illusory energy, can order this insurmountable energy to release the conditioned soul. He orders this release out of His causeless mercy on the surrendered soul and out of His paternal affection for the living entity, who is originally a beloved son of the Lord. Therefore surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord is the only means to get free from the clutches of the stringent material nature. *"The words mām eva are also significant. Mām means unto Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, only, and not Brahmā or Śiva. Although Brahmā and Śiva are greatly elevated and are almost on the level of Viṣṇu, it is not possible for such incarnations of rajo*-guṇa (passion) and tamo-guṇa (ignorance) to release the conditioned soul from the clutches of māyā. In other words, both Brahmā and Śiva are also under the influence of māyā. Only Viṣṇu is the master of māyā. Therefore He alone can give release to the conditioned soul. The Vedas confirm this in the phrase tvam eva viditvā, or 'Freedom is possible only by understanding Kṛṣṇa.' Even Lord Śiva affirms that liberation can be achieved only by the mercy of Viṣṇu. Lord Śiva says, mukti-pradātā sarveṣāṁ viṣṇur eva na saṁśayaḥ: 'There is no doubt that Viṣṇu is the deliverer of liberation for everyone.' " Prabhupāda: Let start some . . . the institution is already there. We are conducting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if the government cooperates that a certain number of students must be trained up scientifically what is the meaning of God, that will be very much beneficial to the state or to the country. We can give solution for any problem. "We" means Kṛṣṇa. We are simply preaching Kṛṣṇa's message. Kṛṣṇa means God. Kṛṣṇa means "black" also. Kṛṣṇa, this word, (chuckles) means "black" also. You are following? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another meaning of kṛṣṇa is blackish. Jackie Vaughn: Black is beautiful? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said, "Black is beautiful?" *Prabhupāda: Why not? He's the most beautiful. Otherwise, why people are attracted? There is a verse in Brahma*-saṁhitā: kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobham; *barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda*-sundarāṅgam (BS 5.30). He has got one peacock feather on His head, and He's blackish, but wonderfully beautiful. These words are used. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya. He's so beautiful that thousands of Cupids cannot be compared with His beauty. Cupid is understood to be the most beautiful person within this universe. You know Cupid? Yes. He enchants by beauty. But Kṛṣṇa's beauty is so great that millions of beauty, kandarpa, or Cupid, cannot be compared with Him. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi (BS 5.30). It is a question of attraction. It is not a question of black and white. Attraction. So unless Kṛṣṇa is beautiful, why He has got so many millions of devotees? This very word is kandarpa-koṭi. Barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam. His blackness is compared with the black cloud. Asita-ambuda. Ambuda means the cloud. The black cloud is full of water. When there is black cloud in the sky, you can be sure that the rain is going to fall down. Not the white cloud. White cloud means no water. Is it not? (chuckles) *So you understand this philosophy and add water to the suffering humanity. They are suffering in the burning, blazing fire of material existence. So blazing fire can be extinguished when the water falls from the sky, not by your fire brigade. When there is blazing fire in the forest, it is beyond your control. You cannot get there fire brigade. So these small attempts of fire brigade is useless to extinguish the blazing fire of this material existence. The water must come from the cloud. That is by Kṛṣṇa's grace. You have no control over the cloud. But that water wanted. Not your fire brigade water, when there is all around blazing fire. The small fire brigade—(imitates bell) dung*-dung-dung-dung-dung. It can vibrate very loudly—dung-dung-dung—"I'm going to, going to," but they'll go when everything finished. That is practical. I have seen in India. There was a fire in a house, and they came late, when the business is finished. And still they're insisting, "We shall pour some water." (laughter) Everyone asked them that "What is the use of?" "No, this is our system." (laughter) The house is burnt into ashes, and they are looking the formality, "Yes, we must put some water," so that they can write in their books, "Here we attended the fire and we have . . ." (laughter) This cheating is going on. In every problem, this kind of cheating is going on. Official, that's all. The same example: you ask to the charity-taker of welfare activities. The fire is going on, but officially the government satisfied, "Yes, we are after all pouring water." So what is the use of pouring water if the fire is going on? But officially, that's all. We must see that the purpose is being carried. No. The house is burnt into ashes, but we are satisfied that our fire brigade man has poured some water, that's all. They do not know that they cannot do any benefit to anyone by this imperfect process. If the whole money of the government is given to us, we can show result within six months how it is beneficial. Will the government give us money? (pause) Prabhupāda: Actually, people do not want to trust in God. That is the real fact. But this writing of slogan is a formal . . . (indistinct) . . . at the present moment, nobody has got any idea of God nor faith in God. What do you think? Hari-śauri: Nobody's got any . . .? Prabhupāda: Idea of God, and what to speak of faith in God, or trust in God. Jackie Vaughn: It's true. Very little faith. "In God We Trust," no. Your original statement. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda wrote one letter to the secretary of the President explaining that "You write on your bills 'In God We Trust,' but who is it that knows about God?" So he was asking if it was possible for the government, they could give us some aid and we would educate. We can educate the people. Prabhupāda: No, I did not ask for any aid. Hari-śauri: Oh. If they would . . . Prabhupāda: You can get the copy. I never asked for any aid. Hari-śauri: No, I didn't mean monetary or anything like that. (pause) (Hari-śauri goes to get letter) Prabhupāda: Read it. *Mādhavānanda: "Personal Secretary to the President, Office of the President of the United States, White House, Washington, D.C. Dear Sir: On your new two*-dollar note it is stated 'In God We Trust,' and directly beneath, 'Declaration of Independence, 1776.' On the two-hundredth anniversary of this occasion, why not begin teaching the science of God as described in the Vedic literatures, like the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is authorized and appreciated by all learned professors in the universities throughout the whole world? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on since 1966 throughout the whole world, especially in the United States of America. It is a great fortune for the American people that they trust in God. Why shouldn't this spiritual education be given to the American people in an organized way? The whole world is going down and becoming godless. If the American people, who trust in God constitutionally, take this movement seriously, it will be a great service to the human society. We are prepared to cooperate in this connection if the American government takes it very seriously. Awaiting your reply with interest. Yours sincerely, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami." Dated May 9th. Jackie Vaughn: Any answer? Mādhavānanda: No reply. Hari-śauri: That was three weeks back. Mādhavānanda: Four weeks; over a month. Hari-śauri: May 19th? Mādhavānanda: May 9th. Hari-śauri: Oh. (pause) Prabhupāda: Why they have not replied? Jackie Vaughn: I suppose you were asking too much. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Too much? So am I wrong? Jackie Vaughn: No, not at all. Prabhupāda: I'm not asking for money. Jackie Vaughn: I know. But you are doing away with our approach to dealing with problems. As you pointed out so well, it's always piecemeal, of a temporary nature. I do it in Lansing. We have a problem, we patch it up, of a temporary nature. We talk to do this, as a quick answer, solution, and we go away feeling better, that we have at least made, as we say, a step in the right direction. Next year, we'll be back with the same problem. I have this problem. Prabhupāda: Everyone. Jackie Vaughn: Everyone. Monday I'll go back to the State Capitol . . . *Prabhupāda: That is explained, daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). We think, "Now this problem is solved," but actually it is not solved; *it has created another problem. Therefore this word is used, daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā. You . . . the problems are so great that you cannot solve it. Jackie Vaughn: Each year it mounts. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jackie Vaughn: It's getting larger and larger, almost impossible to solve. Prabhupāda: Exactly, yes. Jackie Vaughn: Each year we say, "This year is worse than any year in the history." Prabhupāda: See, this is the experienced government officer's statement. Therefore the word is used, duratyayā. What is the meaning of duratyayā? Hari-śauri: "Very difficult to overcome." Jackie Vaughn: I submit, I contribute to that delinquency. I help every day, trying to find answers, always of a temporary nature. Prabhupāda: So you kindly give little attention to this movement. It will solve all the problems. You have read some of our books? No. Jackie Vaughn: Yes. *Prabhupāda: We have all answers to the problems in the Bhagavad*-gītā, but who is hearing us? The problems and the solutions, they are all mentioned. They are given very nicely. But we do not take it. We create our own solution, imperfect solution. Jackie Vaughn: I'm struggling. Prabhupāda: Everyone is struggling. Just like you pour water on the leaf of the tree, and still it will fall down. He's perplexed, that "I am giving water to the leaf every day. How it is that it is dying?" But he never thinks that "I have not done properly; therefore the leaf is dying." He does not know what is the proper way. So things, if they are not done properly, it will not produce the desired result. That is going on. (pause) Prabhupāda: (very loud kīrtana in background) You have seen our Deities? Our Deity, Kṛṣṇa? Hari-śauri: Have you seen the Deities in the temple? Jackie Vaughn: Yes. I am very fortunate. Twice I've been before you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Oh, that's nice. Jackie Vaughn: I'm very grateful. Prabhupāda: Whenever you find time, please come. Jackie Vaughn: I will. Prabhupāda: Yes. You'll get so many inspiration. (pause) Prabhupāda: The pathways in the garden, if they are occasionally washed, as far as possible, grow . . . (break) *Mādhavānanda: . . . yātrā. Today is celebration of snāna*-yātrā, so . . . (break) Hari-śauri: July 18th. *Mādhavānanda: Today is snāna*-yātrā, disappearance of Mukunda Datta and Śrīdhara Paṇḍita and full moon. Tomorrow is disappearance of Śyāmānanda Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) (Conversation with Mother and Sons) Mādhavānanda: Have you read the other cantos also? You read all the way up to the Fifth Canto? Mother: I read so much, you know, and I have four children . . . (indistinct) . . . doesn't live at home—and I read so much that people probably wonder how I get my work done. But it gets done. (Prabhupāda chuckles) And it's like I'm in another world. It's really great. I had a dream about you, Prabhupāda. And I dreamed . . . this is a dream that's coming true. But you didn't acknowledge me because I didn't say "Kṛṣṇa." (Prabhupāda laughs) And then when I did, then you did, and you asked me what I knew about Kṛṣṇa, and I didn't answer you because I didn't want to display my ignorance. Prabhupāda: Very good. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and be one of our members. Your son is also very good. Mother good, son good. According to our Indian estimate, son acquires the quality of mother and the daughter acquires the quality of the father. Mother: I didn't understand. Pradyumna: You didn't understand? The son acquires the quality of the mother and the daughter acquires the quality of the father. So like mother, like son. Mother: When . . . (indistinct) . . . was living in the temple, I didn't tell Kim this, but he looked ten years younger than he does right now, so . . . Mādhavānanda: When he was living in the temple he looked ten years younger. I was thinking he should live in the temple again. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. One clergyman, he asked me, "Swāmījī, why your disciples look so bright?" So that's a fact. Mother: All the devotees. Prabhupāda: Because they are spiritually enlightened. That is the cause of brightness. And materially involved—moroseness. Because it is ignorance. Material life means life of ignorance, and spiritual life means life of enlightenment. That is the difference. Material life is called tama. Tama means darkness. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya . This is the Vedic mantra . "Don't remain in darkness." But people cannot understand that, "I am living in the light. Why I'm darkness?" So darkness means without any spiritual enlightenment. That is darkness. So the Vedic injunction is "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light." The light is my spiritual life, and material life means darkness. Because he does not know what is going to happen next. You are under the laws of material nature. The nature will act according to the association you make, exactly. You do not know that you are infecting some contagious disease. You may not know it, but it will act. In due course of time, you'll develop that disease and suffer. Similarly, without knowledge, in ignorance, imperceptibly we are associating with a certain law of nature, and we shall be victimized. We may not know it, but we shall be victimized. That is the life of ignorance. A child does not know that if he touches the fire it will burn and it will cause some disease, some sore. He does not know. But he, somehow or other, if he touches fire, these things will come. This is the life of ignorance. You do something, you do not know what is the effect. But the effect will come, and you'll have to suffer. You know or not know, it doesn't matter. That is ignorance. Life of darkness. The Christian theologicians, they say that, "Why shall I suffer for my . . .?" They do not believe in the karma , fruitive activity. But that means ignorance. They have no sufficient knowledge. Karma is there and effect is there, but they do not know it. Poor fund of knowledge. Therefore it is failing. They have failed, these Christian priest, to explain everything philosophically. *So advanced Westerners, they are now educated in science philosophy, they are not attracted with these dogmatic views. So to remain in ignorance is animal life. To be enlightened is human life. And the topmost enlightenment is to understand God and to love Him. That is topmost enlightenment. Unfortunately, there is no education to know what is God, and what to speak of loving Him. This is modern civilization—ignorance. A civilization of ignorance. They do not know what is what. Simply speculating, wasting time, talking all nonsense. This is going on in the name of education. But actually they are in ignorance. They do not know what is what. They are reading so many philosophical speculation, horrible condition of the so*-called philosopher, scientist. Simply "I believe," "In this believe, that believe." You believe . . . I believe something. That is your . . . (indistinct) . . . your belief is not final. That is creating chaotic condition. You believe some way, I believe something, he believes something. What is the profit? Chaos. *So all these philosophers, scientists, they believe, "I believe," as if his belief will be a doctrine. Why he believes like that? People also accept like that. Nobody questions that a person says: "I believe," that means he is not in perfect knowledge. But in Vedic śāstra , there is no question of belief. This is the fact. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). It never says that, "I believe there are so many aquatics." No. Clear declaration, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi : there are nine hundred thousand different forms of life in the water. Bās . This is Vedic knowledge. It never says: "I believe." What is the meaning of belief? You must know definitely and declare it. That is Vedic knowledge. Speculation is not allowed. Truth must be declared as it is. (aside) That Bengali woman wanted to see me? Mrs. Dasgupta. Mādhavānanda: I sent someone to find her. Prabhupāda: So here is definitive knowledge in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There's no question "I believe" or "You believe." No. What you are, your belief? You may believe wrongly. You are not perfect. They do not accept this, that every one of the conditioned souls is imperfect, with four defects: illusion, committing mistake, cheating and imperfectness of senses. Who will say it is not? It is. If you have got imperfect senses, then what is the use of your belief? If the child says, "Oh, there is no father. I have never seen my father," does it mean there is no father? Because you are child, because you have got mother, there must be father, you believe or not believe. So these rascals say, "I don't believe in God." Why? As it is inevitable—the mother is there, the child is there—there must be father. You may not know him, but you can know him through your mother. But must be father. There is no question of "I don't believe there is father." No, that cannot be . . . (indistinct) . . . it is like that, everything fact. No question of belief. You believe or not believe, there is father. Similarly, these rascals nowadays, they say: "We don't believe in God." So you believe or not believe, God is there. Who cares for your believe or not believe? The same way: the mother is there, the child is there—there must be father. There is no argument. Is it not? Can anyone say: "Yes, my mother is there, I am there; *I don't believe there is father"? Is it feasible? No. Common sense. So these rascals who do not believe in God, they're simply rascals. Mūḍha, narādhama , that is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Anyone who has no understanding of God, he's lowest of the mankind and rascal number one. Hmm? What do you think? Satsvarūpa: Sometimes there's a question that I'm asked, that we say we're imperfect so we have to receive perfect knowledge. But they say if you're always imperfect, then how can you know that it's perfect, what you're hearing? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Just like a child does not believe. A boy, he has not seen his father. He does not believe that there is father. But if the mother says: "Yes, my dear child, there is father," so then his knowledge is perfect. With his imperfect knowledge, he was disbelieving that there is father, but when the mother says, he has to accept it. Then his knowledge becomes perfect. He has not seen who is father. That's a fact, maybe. And . . . but the mother is authority. She says: "Here, my dear child. There is father." Then his knowledge his perfect. So we may be imperfect, the child is imperfect, but when he gets the knowledge from the perfect source, mother, then it is perfect. Similarly, we, we never say that we are perfect. If you are perfect, then why you are learning? We are trying to become perfect. So our process is that we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Therefore whatever we say, it is perfect. A child does not know, "What is this, father?" The father says: "My dear child, it is called microphone." So after that, if he takes it and declares to anyone, "This is microphone," that is perfect, although he's a child—because he's learned it from the perfect father. This is our process. We don't speculate. We don't speculate whether there is father or not. That is not our process. We ask from the mother, "Mother, they say I have got father. I have never seen." So mother says: "Yes, my dear child, you have got a father." Then finish. Knowledge is perfect. And the child cannot challenge, "I have never seen my father. How can I believe you?" This is nonsense. Your mother says, that is fact. That's all. Finished. You cannot challenge mother: "Mother, I have never seen my father. How can I believe?" That is nonsense! This is going on. "I have never seen God. Can you show me God?" This rascaldom is going on . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all you must know you are rascal. How can you see God? You hear from the authority who knows God. That is the injunction. *You have to approach tattva*-darśī , who has seen God through spiritual eyes. *So one has to approach such a person who actually knows God, seen God, and approach him, praṇipātena . Not like that childish challenge. By surrender: praṇipātena . Then question. First of all surrender. Praṇipātena, paripraśnena . Not by challenging. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore one has to go to guru , where there is no challenge. There is no question of challenging. You can make question. That is another thing. But not challenge. Then you'll be deceived. Therefore first condition is praṇipātena . Without praṇipāta , you cannot make advancement. *So this philosophy, our philosophy . . . our or anyone's philosophy. Philosophy is not for our or yours. Philosophy is philosophy. That is a science. Philosophy is the science of sciences. That is the description of philosophy. In our college days we were philosophy student of Professor, Dr. W. S. Urquhart. He defined that, "Philosophy is the science of sciences." There are different departments of scientific knowledge. When they are taken together, the original science is philosophy. Philosophy is the science. Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam etad jñānam. Tad ajñānaṁ yad anyathā. Is it not stated in the Bhagavad-gītā ? Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. To know the Absolute Truth, that is philosophy. So the simple philosophy is there in the Bhagavad-gītā , that: *To understand God, a simple method. Simple method to . . . just like the earth is there, everybody knows. And from the earth different varieties of living entities are coming. The grass is coming, the plant is coming, then insects are coming, flies are coming, then by eating the grass or flies, the bigger animals are coming or they're existing. Take for four*-legged animals, they are eating the grass, the plants. So they are living, their generation is going on. Then the human being is coming by evolution. So anyway, ultimately they are coming from the earth. Is it not? Is there any difficulty? So we are coming from the earth or water or air, fire—the five elements. Therefore on the total material elements is our mother. The mother means wherefrom one comes. He's your child because his body has come from your body. Everyone knows it. So every living being is coming out of this earth in different forms. Now if it is established, the mother is the earth and everything that is coming out of mother, they are children, then where is father? Is it not the next inquiry? Mādhavānanda: Is that not the next inquiry? *Prabhupāda: The mother is there, the children are there. The next inquiry is . . . suppose unknown man comes to him, "Where is your father?" So who is the father? And father says, ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am father." Finished. Father is God. God has created this earth. He has impregnated the earth with the living entities, and they are coming out. Where is the difficulty? But because they are in ignorance, rascals, it takes long, long time to understand this simple truth. So dull-headed. The children are there and mother is there, and why father . . . there should be no father? What is the answer? Satsvarūpa: That the mother is just some symbolic idea. There is no . . . *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, mother exists. Mother means who begets, who gives birth. You practically see, grass to the highest form of life, they are coming from earth, living at the cost of the earth. The earth is supplying food, food grains, vegetables. So mother . . . as child is growing by sucking the mother's breast, so we are living at the cost of mother. She is giving us milk, she is giving us everything. That is mother. And śāstra , the earth is considered mother. Ātma*-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī . . . but they have no knowledge. Mother means who creates my body, who gives me feeding in the beginning, gives me strength. That is mother. How you can understand mother otherwise? So mother is there: earth. Dhenur dhātrī tathā pṛthvī. Pṛthvī is mother. And practically we see. She is giving, the mother earth, is giving birth to so many varieties of children—8,400,000. Then the next inquiry should be: the mother is there, the children are there, then where is the father? That answer is given by Kṛṣṇa: ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4), "I am the father." So where is the difficulty to understand Supreme Lord? But they are so dull-headed that they have no even common sense, and they're passing as philosopher, politician and scientist, big leader, big rascal. This is going on. This is going on. All big, big rascals, they have taken the leadership of the world, and the world is in chaos, chaotic condition; everyone is unhappy, suffering. Son: My heart has been captivated by person first introduced me to you, George Harrison, and . . . Prabhupāda: George Harrison? Oh. You came with him? Son: I first became interested several years back in what you were writing when I . . . especially when I began to see the tie with what he was singing. And now, it's like, the music he's doing right now reflects what I am looking for myself. Satsvarūpa: He's more following George Harrison than following you. Son: I see the two of you as not . . . Prabhupāda: What is George Harrison's? What is the idea? He is . . . Son: I see both of you standing together. I don't see you apart. That's why I'm here right now. Prabhupāda: Thank you. This boy is also nice. He comes to me. He offers me. He has given one great big estate in London. He financed my first *Kṛṣṇa Book* . It required nineteen thousand dollars. So I asked him that, "I have no money. If you can pay, I can print." So he gave immediately. I have admitted. You have seen my *Kṛṣṇa Book* ? Show him. Mādhavānanda: George Harrison's Introduction? Son: Oh, yes. I feel that I am personally in debt to him as well as being in debt to you at this point in my life. Prabhupāda: He's a good boy. Mādhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? There are many, many guests coming, Indian people coming today. We have not seen so many coming for a long time, and I think it is because they know you are here. (break) *Prabhupāda: One or two words, that is enough. Godless civilization. Everything, there is proof: there is father, the supreme father. And still they do not believe in God. He says ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā , "I am the seed-giving father." We have got experience that father gives the seed in the womb of the mother and then the child takes body from the mother and comes out. Everyone knows it. Hari-śauri: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Prabhupāda: Purport. Hari-śauri: "In this verse it is clearly explained that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is the original father of all living entities. The living entities are combinations of the material nature and the spiritual nature. Such living entities are seen not only on this planet but in every planet, even in the highest, where Brahmā is situated. Everywhere there are living entities; within the earth there are living entities, even within water and within fire. All these appearances are due to the mother . . ." Prabhupāda: And these rascals say in other planet there is no life. And we have to believe that. This is going on. Why other planet there is no life? Only this planet? These rascal things are going on. *Hari-śauri: "All these appearances are due to the mother, material nature, and Kṛṣṇa's seed*-giving process. The purport is that the living entities, being impregnated in the material world, come out and form at the time of creation according to their past deeds." *Prabhupāda: Now if the child is . . . if the father puts the seed in the black wife, the child may come in black body. In the white body, the child may come in white body. So the body is different according to the mother, but the soul is the same. One gets the body according to the body of the mother. But either in the black body or in the white body the soul is the same. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). This simple truth they cannot understand, common sense. In one minute it can be understood. The father . . . mother is there and the child is there. So there must be father. How one can deny? Son: Do we have any other goal in life than this . . . Prabhupāda: No, the first thing is that you must know what you are. You should know that the mother is nature and the father is God. I am the child. Then you try to understand the father, and the son, obedience to father. Then you have to learn how to become obedient to the father. Then father will be pleased. And this father is not a poor father. He has created the whole material world. So if you become good son, then naturally you enjoy the property of the father. Everything will be solved simply by understanding the father. And it is natural the son inherits the property of the father. The father is so rich, God, that how much property you can enjoy? What is the use of your endeavoring differently? You have got your father's property. Why you are wasting your time to become happy separately from the father? You just become obedient son of your father—naturally, you will inherit the father's property and be happy. Why you are endeavoring separately, without father? That is your mistake. You want to happy. So happiness is already there. You are such a rich man's son, God. God is the proprietor of everything. So instead of becoming a very dear child to the father, why you are endeavoring separately to become happy? Just become a very dear child to the father. Then everything is there. Son: How to become dear? *Prabhupāda: You recognize, "God is my father, and I shall be obedient son." That's all. You do what father says, then you become obedient son. The father says: "Always think of Me," man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), you can think of the father always. Where is the difficulty? Just like we're . . . Kṛṣṇa is the father. You see Kṛṣṇa daily. And if you think of Kṛṣṇa, where is the difficulty? If you see within your heart the Deity, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, you don't require to pass M.A., Ph.D. examination. You can do it. And He asks, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ . That's all. Simple thing. You come to the temple, offer obeisances. Everyone is offering. Where is the difficulty? What you lost? Where is your loss anything? If you come to the temple and offer your respectful obeisances, "Father, please accept my obeisances," where is the difficulty? And father is so kind: "Oh, My dear son, you have come. Very good. Thank you." Immediately you become recognized: "Oh, you are a good son." Where is the difficulty? You don't require the so-called meditation. Meditation is good if you think of your father. If you meditate on something nonsense, what is the use? This is going on. "Real father don't recognize; we are meditating." Misleading. Real meditation is to think of God. But if you do not know God, what is God, and when we present, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa," you don't accept, then what can be done? Everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, God. But if somebody says: "No, I do not accept," that is his business. If he wants to be misled, let him do. What can we do? But here is God. Thing is very simple. There is no difficulty. But we are so obstinate, lowest of the mankind, we would not accept simple things. We will make it complicated and be frustrated. That is our disease. Unnecessarily we make things complicated. Otherwise, father is there, father's instruction is there, father's favor is there. Everything is there. Mādhavānanda: The program's starting downstairs now. Hari-śauri: So I think they're going for the feast now? Mādhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Go. Take prasādam . Son: I don't understand you, but accept my humble obeisances please, anyway. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Thank you. Mother: Thank you, Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests leave) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Both of them are good, mother and son. What happened to that machine? (break) . . . say there is no father, and there is no God. A man who is speaking nonsense like this, he is born by a father. And where he gets the idea that without father the child is born? Hari-śauri: Doctor Frog. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. He's born by a father. So where he gets the idea a child is there without father? "There was chemical, there was this, there was . . ." Chemical is there in the semina. It is a chemical combination. But that chemical combination is not living entity. This body is chemical composition, but why don't you manufacture a living being with these chemicals? Hari-śauri: Even for a chemical reaction, the chemicals have to be brought together. Prabhupāda: No, suppose he's able to bring together, put together. But where is the life? Hari-śauri: But even accepting their idea that things are produced from chemical reactions, who is creating the chemical reactions? Prabhupāda: Yes, put this chemical together and bring life. Where is the life? We ask, prepare one egg. You can analyze the white part and the yellow part of the eggs, and you find some chemical properties. You bring them together and put in the same layer and everything. Now produce life. Where is that science? Simply talking, "Yes, we shall do. We are trying." Nonsense, trying. What is the use of trying? It is already there. God sent egg through the chicken; it will produce life. So why you are wasting your time in this way? Rather, try to understand the person who has got such a brain that within this chemical composition there is life. You cannot do it, therefore you are inferior. Somebody has done it. Even if you say: "Nature has done it," nature is then powerful. You are not even to the level of nature, what to speak of God. Nature is only one of the energies of God. You cannot understand even the energy. How you will understand the energetic? Hari-śauri: It's difficult to understand how they could possibly say that there's no intelligence. Prabhupāda: That is their . . . therefore we say these are all rascals. Therefore generally I say this very strong word, but that is the only word to be used for them: rascals, simply rascals. We have no business with them that we have to flatter. "No, no, sir," you have to be saying, "a great scientist." We say you are rascals. That's all. Straight, blunt. Four annas worth. (break) Hari-śauri: I saw a lot of Indians walking around this morning even. Prabhupāda: In our garden? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have found a good place, temple. Hari-śauri: It's a fact. This is the best place in all of Detroit. Prabhupāda: And if you purchase that land, it will be very beautiful. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: I have advised them to advertise books on the riverside. People will see. Hari-śauri: Hmm. That's a very good idea. Prabhupāda: Therefore, on the first day of seeing, I closed the transaction: "Now agreed, I will give you cash, three hundred thousand." He immediately agreed. Verbally, your transaction was finished on my first meeting. Then it was done. It was kept for us by Kṛṣṇa, otherwise, you could not touch this property, it is so valuable property. Hari-śauri: Seems Kṛṣṇa arranges things very nicely sometimes. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa arranges things very nicely sometimes. Prabhupāda: Everything is done just like it is temple. The Deity hall. Hari-śauri: It's a perfect place. Couldn't be better. (end) (Conversation with Mother and Sons) Mādhavānanda: Have you read the other cantos also? You read all the way up to the Fifth Canto? Mother: I read so much, you know, and I have four children . . . (indistinct) . . . doesn't live at home—and I read so much that people probably wonder how I get my work done. But it gets done. (Prabhupāda chuckles) And it's like I'm in another world. It's really great. I had a dream about you, Prabhupāda. And I dreamed . . . this is a dream that's coming true. But you didn't acknowledge me because I didn't say "Kṛṣṇa." (Prabhupāda laughs) And then when I did, then you did, and you asked me what I knew about Kṛṣṇa, and I didn't answer you because I didn't want to display my ignorance. Prabhupāda: Very good. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and be one of our members. Your son is also very good. Mother good, son good. According to our Indian estimate, son acquires the quality of mother and the daughter acquires the quality of the father. Mother: I didn't understand. Pradyumna: You didn't understand? The son acquires the quality of the mother and the daughter acquires the quality of the father. So like mother, like son. Mother: When . . . (indistinct) . . . was living in the temple, I didn't tell Kim this, but he looked ten years younger than he does right now, so . . . Mādhavānanda: When he was living in the temple he looked ten years younger. I was thinking he should live in the temple again. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. One clergyman, he asked me, "Swāmījī, why your disciples look so bright?" So that's a fact. Mother: All the devotees. Prabhupāda: Because they are spiritually enlightened. That is the cause of brightness. And materially involved—moroseness. Because it is ignorance. Material life means life of ignorance, and spiritual life means life of enlightenment. That is the difference. Material life is called tama. Tama means darkness. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya . This is the Vedic mantra . "Don't remain in darkness." But people cannot understand that, "I am living in the light. Why I'm darkness?" So darkness means without any spiritual enlightenment. That is darkness. So the Vedic injunction is "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light." The light is my spiritual life, and material life means darkness. Because he does not know what is going to happen next. You are under the laws of material nature. The nature will act according to the association you make, exactly. You do not know that you are infecting some contagious disease. You may not know it, but it will act. In due course of time, you'll develop that disease and suffer. Similarly, without knowledge, in ignorance, imperceptibly we are associating with a certain law of nature, and we shall be victimized. We may not know it, but we shall be victimized. That is the life of ignorance. A child does not know that if he touches the fire it will burn and it will cause some disease, some sore. He does not know. But he, somehow or other, if he touches fire, these things will come. This is the life of ignorance. You do something, you do not know what is the effect. But the effect will come, and you'll have to suffer. You know or not know, it doesn't matter. That is ignorance. Life of darkness. The Christian theologicians, they say that, "Why shall I suffer for my . . .?" They do not believe in the karma , fruitive activity. But that means ignorance. They have no sufficient knowledge. Karma is there and effect is there, but they do not know it. Poor fund of knowledge. Therefore it is failing. They have failed, these Christian priest, to explain everything philosophically. *So advanced Westerners, they are now educated in science philosophy, they are not attracted with these dogmatic views. So to remain in ignorance is animal life. To be enlightened is human life. And the topmost enlightenment is to understand God and to love Him. That is topmost enlightenment. Unfortunately, there is no education to know what is God, and what to speak of loving Him. This is modern civilization—ignorance. A civilization of ignorance. They do not know what is what. Simply speculating, wasting time, talking all nonsense. This is going on in the name of education. But actually they are in ignorance. They do not know what is what. They are reading so many philosophical speculation, horrible condition of the so*-called philosopher, scientist. Simply "I believe," "In this believe, that believe." You believe . . . I believe something. That is your . . . (indistinct) . . . your belief is not final. That is creating chaotic condition. You believe some way, I believe something, he believes something. What is the profit? Chaos. *So all these philosophers, scientists, they believe, "I believe," as if his belief will be a doctrine. Why he believes like that? People also accept like that. Nobody questions that a person says: "I believe," that means he is not in perfect knowledge. But in Vedic śāstra , there is no question of belief. This is the fact. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). It never says that, "I believe there are so many aquatics." No. Clear declaration, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi : there are nine hundred thousand different forms of life in the water. Bās . This is Vedic knowledge. It never says: "I believe." What is the meaning of belief? You must know definitely and declare it. That is Vedic knowledge. Speculation is not allowed. Truth must be declared as it is. (aside) That Bengali woman wanted to see me? Mrs. Dasgupta. Mādhavānanda: I sent someone to find her. Prabhupāda: So here is definitive knowledge in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There's no question "I believe" or "You believe." No. What you are, your belief? You may believe wrongly. You are not perfect. They do not accept this, that every one of the conditioned souls is imperfect, with four defects: illusion, committing mistake, cheating and imperfectness of senses. Who will say it is not? It is. If you have got imperfect senses, then what is the use of your belief? If the child says, "Oh, there is no father. I have never seen my father," does it mean there is no father? Because you are child, because you have got mother, there must be father, you believe or not believe. So these rascals say, "I don't believe in God." Why? As it is inevitable—the mother is there, the child is there—there must be father. You may not know him, but you can know him through your mother. But must be father. There is no question of "I don't believe there is father." No, that cannot be . . . (indistinct) . . . it is like that, everything fact. No question of belief. You believe or not believe, there is father. Similarly, these rascals nowadays, they say: "We don't believe in God." So you believe or not believe, God is there. Who cares for your believe or not believe? The same way: the mother is there, the child is there—there must be father. There is no argument. Is it not? Can anyone say: "Yes, my mother is there, I am there; *I don't believe there is father"? Is it feasible? No. Common sense. So these rascals who do not believe in God, they're simply rascals. Mūḍha, narādhama , that is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Anyone who has no understanding of God, he's lowest of the mankind and rascal number one. Hmm? What do you think? Satsvarūpa: Sometimes there's a question that I'm asked, that we say we're imperfect so we have to receive perfect knowledge. But they say if you're always imperfect, then how can you know that it's perfect, what you're hearing? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Just like a child does not believe. A boy, he has not seen his father. He does not believe that there is father. But if the mother says: "Yes, my dear child, there is father," so then his knowledge is perfect. With his imperfect knowledge, he was disbelieving that there is father, but when the mother says, he has to accept it. Then his knowledge becomes perfect. He has not seen who is father. That's a fact, maybe. And . . . but the mother is authority. She says: "Here, my dear child. There is father." Then his knowledge his perfect. So we may be imperfect, the child is imperfect, but when he gets the knowledge from the perfect source, mother, then it is perfect. Similarly, we, we never say that we are perfect. If you are perfect, then why you are learning? We are trying to become perfect. So our process is that we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Therefore whatever we say, it is perfect. A child does not know, "What is this, father?" The father says: "My dear child, it is called microphone." So after that, if he takes it and declares to anyone, "This is microphone," that is perfect, although he's a child—because he's learned it from the perfect father. This is our process. We don't speculate. We don't speculate whether there is father or not. That is not our process. We ask from the mother, "Mother, they say I have got father. I have never seen." So mother says: "Yes, my dear child, you have got a father." Then finish. Knowledge is perfect. And the child cannot challenge, "I have never seen my father. How can I believe you?" This is nonsense. Your mother says, that is fact. That's all. Finished. You cannot challenge mother: "Mother, I have never seen my father. How can I believe?" That is nonsense! This is going on. "I have never seen God. Can you show me God?" This rascaldom is going on . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all you must know you are rascal. How can you see God? You hear from the authority who knows God. That is the injunction. *You have to approach tattva*-darśī , who has seen God through spiritual eyes. *So one has to approach such a person who actually knows God, seen God, and approach him, praṇipātena . Not like that childish challenge. By surrender: praṇipātena . Then question. First of all surrender. Praṇipātena, paripraśnena . Not by challenging. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore one has to go to guru , where there is no challenge. There is no question of challenging. You can make question. That is another thing. But not challenge. Then you'll be deceived. Therefore first condition is praṇipātena . Without praṇipāta , you cannot make advancement. *So this philosophy, our philosophy . . . our or anyone's philosophy. Philosophy is not for our or yours. Philosophy is philosophy. That is a science. Philosophy is the science of sciences. That is the description of philosophy. In our college days we were philosophy student of Professor, Dr. W. S. Urquhart. He defined that, "Philosophy is the science of sciences." There are different departments of scientific knowledge. When they are taken together, the original science is philosophy. Philosophy is the science. Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam etad jñānam. Tad ajñānaṁ yad anyathā. Is it not stated in the Bhagavad-gītā ? Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. To know the Absolute Truth, that is philosophy. So the simple philosophy is there in the Bhagavad-gītā , that: *To understand God, a simple method. Simple method to . . . just like the earth is there, everybody knows. And from the earth different varieties of living entities are coming. The grass is coming, the plant is coming, then insects are coming, flies are coming, then by eating the grass or flies, the bigger animals are coming or they're existing. Take for four*-legged animals, they are eating the grass, the plants. So they are living, their generation is going on. Then the human being is coming by evolution. So anyway, ultimately they are coming from the earth. Is it not? Is there any difficulty? So we are coming from the earth or water or air, fire—the five elements. Therefore on the total material elements is our mother. The mother means wherefrom one comes. He's your child because his body has come from your body. Everyone knows it. So every living being is coming out of this earth in different forms. Now if it is established, the mother is the earth and everything that is coming out of mother, they are children, then where is father? Is it not the next inquiry? Mādhavānanda: Is that not the next inquiry? *Prabhupāda: The mother is there, the children are there. The next inquiry is . . . suppose unknown man comes to him, "Where is your father?" So who is the father? And father says, ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am father." Finished. Father is God. God has created this earth. He has impregnated the earth with the living entities, and they are coming out. Where is the difficulty? But because they are in ignorance, rascals, it takes long, long time to understand this simple truth. So dull-headed. The children are there and mother is there, and why father . . . there should be no father? What is the answer? Satsvarūpa: That the mother is just some symbolic idea. There is no . . . *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, mother exists. Mother means who begets, who gives birth. You practically see, grass to the highest form of life, they are coming from earth, living at the cost of the earth. The earth is supplying food, food grains, vegetables. So mother . . . as child is growing by sucking the mother's breast, so we are living at the cost of mother. She is giving us milk, she is giving us everything. That is mother. And śāstra , the earth is considered mother. Ātma*-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī . . . but they have no knowledge. Mother means who creates my body, who gives me feeding in the beginning, gives me strength. That is mother. How you can understand mother otherwise? So mother is there: earth. Dhenur dhātrī tathā pṛthvī. Pṛthvī is mother. And practically we see. She is giving, the mother earth, is giving birth to so many varieties of children—8,400,000. Then the next inquiry should be: the mother is there, the children are there, then where is the father? That answer is given by Kṛṣṇa: ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4), "I am the father." So where is the difficulty to understand Supreme Lord? But they are so dull-headed that they have no even common sense, and they're passing as philosopher, politician and scientist, big leader, big rascal. This is going on. This is going on. All big, big rascals, they have taken the leadership of the world, and the world is in chaos, chaotic condition; everyone is unhappy, suffering. Son: My heart has been captivated by person first introduced me to you, George Harrison, and . . . Prabhupāda: George Harrison? Oh. You came with him? Son: I first became interested several years back in what you were writing when I . . . especially when I began to see the tie with what he was singing. And now, it's like, the music he's doing right now reflects what I am looking for myself. Satsvarūpa: He's more following George Harrison than following you. Son: I see the two of you as not . . . Prabhupāda: What is George Harrison's? What is the idea? He is . . . Son: I see both of you standing together. I don't see you apart. That's why I'm here right now. Prabhupāda: Thank you. This boy is also nice. He comes to me. He offers me. He has given one great big estate in London. He financed my first *Kṛṣṇa Book* . It required nineteen thousand dollars. So I asked him that, "I have no money. If you can pay, I can print." So he gave immediately. I have admitted. You have seen my *Kṛṣṇa Book* ? Show him. Mādhavānanda: George Harrison's Introduction? Son: Oh, yes. I feel that I am personally in debt to him as well as being in debt to you at this point in my life. Prabhupāda: He's a good boy. Mādhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? There are many, many guests coming, Indian people coming today. We have not seen so many coming for a long time, and I think it is because they know you are here. (break) *Prabhupāda: One or two words, that is enough. Godless civilization. Everything, there is proof: there is father, the supreme father. And still they do not believe in God. He says ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā , "I am the seed-giving father." We have got experience that father gives the seed in the womb of the mother and then the child takes body from the mother and comes out. Everyone knows it. Hari-śauri: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Prabhupāda: Purport. Hari-śauri: "In this verse it is clearly explained that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is the original father of all living entities. The living entities are combinations of the material nature and the spiritual nature. Such living entities are seen not only on this planet but in every planet, even in the highest, where Brahmā is situated. Everywhere there are living entities; within the earth there are living entities, even within water and within fire. All these appearances are due to the mother . . ." Prabhupāda: And these rascals say in other planet there is no life. And we have to believe that. This is going on. Why other planet there is no life? Only this planet? These rascal things are going on. *Hari-śauri: "All these appearances are due to the mother, material nature, and Kṛṣṇa's seed*-giving process. The purport is that the living entities, being impregnated in the material world, come out and form at the time of creation according to their past deeds." *Prabhupāda: Now if the child is . . . if the father puts the seed in the black wife, the child may come in black body. In the white body, the child may come in white body. So the body is different according to the mother, but the soul is the same. One gets the body according to the body of the mother. But either in the black body or in the white body the soul is the same. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). This simple truth they cannot understand, common sense. In one minute it can be understood. The father . . . mother is there and the child is there. So there must be father. How one can deny? Son: Do we have any other goal in life than this . . . Prabhupāda: No, the first thing is that you must know what you are. You should know that the mother is nature and the father is God. I am the child. Then you try to understand the father, and the son, obedience to father. Then you have to learn how to become obedient to the father. Then father will be pleased. And this father is not a poor father. He has created the whole material world. So if you become good son, then naturally you enjoy the property of the father. Everything will be solved simply by understanding the father. And it is natural the son inherits the property of the father. The father is so rich, God, that how much property you can enjoy? What is the use of your endeavoring differently? You have got your father's property. Why you are wasting your time to become happy separately from the father? You just become obedient son of your father—naturally, you will inherit the father's property and be happy. Why you are endeavoring separately, without father? That is your mistake. You want to happy. So happiness is already there. You are such a rich man's son, God. God is the proprietor of everything. So instead of becoming a very dear child to the father, why you are endeavoring separately to become happy? Just become a very dear child to the father. Then everything is there. Son: How to become dear? *Prabhupāda: You recognize, "God is my father, and I shall be obedient son." That's all. You do what father says, then you become obedient son. The father says: "Always think of Me," man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), you can think of the father always. Where is the difficulty? Just like we're . . . Kṛṣṇa is the father. You see Kṛṣṇa daily. And if you think of Kṛṣṇa, where is the difficulty? If you see within your heart the Deity, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, you don't require to pass M.A., Ph.D. examination. You can do it. And He asks, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ . That's all. Simple thing. You come to the temple, offer obeisances. Everyone is offering. Where is the difficulty? What you lost? Where is your loss anything? If you come to the temple and offer your respectful obeisances, "Father, please accept my obeisances," where is the difficulty? And father is so kind: "Oh, My dear son, you have come. Very good. Thank you." Immediately you become recognized: "Oh, you are a good son." Where is the difficulty? You don't require the so-called meditation. Meditation is good if you think of your father. If you meditate on something nonsense, what is the use? This is going on. "Real father don't recognize; we are meditating." Misleading. Real meditation is to think of God. But if you do not know God, what is God, and when we present, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa," you don't accept, then what can be done? Everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, God. But if somebody says: "No, I do not accept," that is his business. If he wants to be misled, let him do. What can we do? But here is God. Thing is very simple. There is no difficulty. But we are so obstinate, lowest of the mankind, we would not accept simple things. We will make it complicated and be frustrated. That is our disease. Unnecessarily we make things complicated. Otherwise, father is there, father's instruction is there, father's favor is there. Everything is there. Mādhavānanda: The program's starting downstairs now. Hari-śauri: So I think they're going for the feast now? Mādhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Go. Take prasādam . Son: I don't understand you, but accept my humble obeisances please, anyway. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Thank you. Mother: Thank you, Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests leave) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Both of them are good, mother and son. What happened to that machine? (break) . . . say there is no father, and there is no God. A man who is speaking nonsense like this, he is born by a father. And where he gets the idea that without father the child is born? Hari-śauri: Doctor Frog. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. He's born by a father. So where he gets the idea a child is there without father? "There was chemical, there was this, there was . . ." Chemical is there in the semina. It is a chemical combination. But that chemical combination is not living entity. This body is chemical composition, but why don't you manufacture a living being with these chemicals? Hari-śauri: Even for a chemical reaction, the chemicals have to be brought together. Prabhupāda: No, suppose he's able to bring together, put together. But where is the life? Hari-śauri: But even accepting their idea that things are produced from chemical reactions, who is creating the chemical reactions? Prabhupāda: Yes, put this chemical together and bring life. Where is the life? We ask, prepare one egg. You can analyze the white part and the yellow part of the eggs, and you find some chemical properties. You bring them together and put in the same layer and everything. Now produce life. Where is that science? Simply talking, "Yes, we shall do. We are trying." Nonsense, trying. What is the use of trying? It is already there. God sent egg through the chicken; it will produce life. So why you are wasting your time in this way? Rather, try to understand the person who has got such a brain that within this chemical composition there is life. You cannot do it, therefore you are inferior. Somebody has done it. Even if you say: "Nature has done it," nature is then powerful. You are not even to the level of nature, what to speak of God. Nature is only one of the energies of God. You cannot understand even the energy. How you will understand the energetic? Hari-śauri: It's difficult to understand how they could possibly say that there's no intelligence. Prabhupāda: That is their . . . therefore we say these are all rascals. Therefore generally I say this very strong word, but that is the only word to be used for them: rascals, simply rascals. We have no business with them that we have to flatter. "No, no, sir," you have to be saying, "a great scientist." We say you are rascals. That's all. Straight, blunt. Four annas worth. (break) Hari-śauri: I saw a lot of Indians walking around this morning even. Prabhupāda: In our garden? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have found a good place, temple. Hari-śauri: It's a fact. This is the best place in all of Detroit. Prabhupāda: And if you purchase that land, it will be very beautiful. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: I have advised them to advertise books on the riverside. People will see. Hari-śauri: Hmm. That's a very good idea. Prabhupāda: Therefore, on the first day of seeing, I closed the transaction: "Now agreed, I will give you cash, three hundred thousand." He immediately agreed. Verbally, your transaction was finished on my first meeting. Then it was done. It was kept for us by Kṛṣṇa, otherwise, you could not touch this property, it is so valuable property. Hari-śauri: Seems Kṛṣṇa arranges things very nicely sometimes. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa arranges things very nicely sometimes. Prabhupāda: Everything is done just like it is temple. The Deity hall. Hari-śauri: It's a perfect place. Couldn't be better. (end) (Conversation with Ambarisa and Catholic Priest) *Śrutikīrti: We took a few pictures that you could see. We took some pictures for you to look at of the restaurant. It's still being built, so there's not actually that much to see. (break) This street that it's on is very heavily traveled all day. This is taken at about five o'clock in the morning, so there's no one there. It's still under construction, you can see all the cinderblocks inside. But it's all*-glass building. Prabhupāda: It is being rented or purchased? Śrutikīrti: That's still being worked out. I think . . . Ambarīṣa: I think we're going to purchase. Śrutikīrti: . . . Ambarīṣa is purchasing. Prabhupāda: The back building? That is a different building? Śrutikīrti: No, yeah. This is condominiums, houses, for people living above, so the restaurant is just that one floor. That's what we would be purchasing, not the whole building. Ambarīṣa: The kitchen is inside the big building. *Śrutikīrti: But it's very choice space. It's just two blocks from what's called the Ritz Hotel, which is most famous hotel in the country, they have in every large city. These pictures, that glassed*-in area, that would all be just the serving area. Then the kitchen is behind the wall. There would be a large kitchen facility, where all the devotees would be cooking. Prabhupāda: Kitchen is within the building? Śrutikīrti and Ambarīṣa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So one*-story building also included? *Ambarīṣa: Yes, there's a kitchen and dish*-washing room and office, storage . . . Śrutikīrti: Storage space, office. All inside. Prabhupāda: Nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Did you explain that it was being built for someone who was going to start a restaurant, but they didn't? Śrutikīrti: Yes. They ran out of money, these people, and there were so many restrictions at this location because of these buildings here. People live there, and they didn't want anyone in there who was going to cook meat. And they didn't want anyone who was going to serve intoxication. So practically we're the only people that don't serve meat and intoxication. So it's actually . . . they are very glad. Ambarīṣa: The man who owns it says he gets fifty phone calls every day of people who want that space. It's such a good space that fifty people a day call. Prabhupāda: Fifty? Śrutikīrti: People are very interested. The location is excellent. It's on one of the most important streets in all of Boston. Ambarīṣa: Once we get open we'll be able to serve a thousand people a day. Prabhupāda: Oh. And what you are charging? Ambarīṣa: We're charging anywhere between three and eight dollars. Eight dollars for a very big plate, many preparations and different nectars and very sumptuous feast for eight dollars. And then if you just want a sandwich or something a little smaller, you can pay just three dollars. We think we'll be making about . . . how much? About half a million dollars a year, which will all go to you, Prabhupāda. (laughter) So we couldn't call the restaurant the "Hare Kṛṣṇa Restaurant" because there were some restrictions in the block, so we were thinking we'd call it "Saṅkīrtana." That's okay? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They are Hare Kṛṣṇa phobia. They are afraid. Śrutikīrti and Ambarīṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have suggested "Saṅkīrtana"? Ambarīṣa: Yes, they think that is nice. They do not know what that means. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Just like our Haridāsa. You know Haridāsa? Bombay? *Ambarīṣa: Yes, uh*-huh. Prabhupāda: He, Moscow, he was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa on the street, and when people asked, "What is this?" "This is cinema song." Ambarīṣa: Sometimes as devotees we have to be a little bit crooked. Prabhupāda: (indistinct Hindi) . . . we shall do everything as the material person does, karmīs do, but we have to do everything for Kṛṣṇa, not person. Then it is all right. So? Śrutikīrti: There's one thing. Our best hours, some of the best business in the restaurant, would be very late at night, like between nine to eleven o'clock at night. So is that all right as long as we can arrange . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Śrutikīrti: . . . everyone's following the program? People are up 'til midnight? Ambarīṣa: Still they will come to the morning program. Prabhupāda: But there will be picture of Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Ambarīṣa: Yes. *Śrutikīrti: We should have a nice altar, small altar, Pañca*-tattva. Ambarīṣa: The temple is only one block away. We were wondering, should we offer the food to the Deities in the temple or should we offer it in the restaurant? Prabhupāda: Better in the restaurant. Ambarīṣa: Better in the restaurant. Yes, that is a little easier also. Prabhupāda: They must know that they're eating prasādam . Ambarīṣa: Yes, yes. Śrutikīrti: There was one other thing. Mānasvī, he is outside of New York, and I don't know very much what his position is. I talked to him once. He wanted to see you in New York, I don't know if you know that, because he says that all these things are not true. No. *Prabhupāda: He's a thief. He has taken about twenty*-five thousand dollars. He's a thief from the very beginning. What he is doing now? Śrutikīrti: He's working two jobs. They won't allow him in the temple. I think you sent one letter or something. Prabhupāda: No, he should not be admitted. *Ambarīṣa: Also in Boston there's a lady who may be donating a million*-dollar farm to the Boston temple. This is just a project that's a little bit . . . that's just started, and she wants to donate her farm. So that is also going on, and also the temple is purchasing the building next door. I gave them some money for a down payment on it so they could buy the building next door to use it to house the people that are living in the restaurant and also for the Bhaktivedanta Institute, because I think the Bhaktivedanta Institute is going to be in Boston. Mādhava is there. Prabhupāda: Yes, Boston is nice place for the Institute. Śrutikīrti: Best place for it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's the educational center of America. Ambarīṣa: Academic center of the United States. So now we are fixing up the temple very nicely. We've spent about fifty thousand dollars putting in all new tile floor and a beautiful new onyx altar. Very, very gorgeous. Prabhupāda: So it is framework or solid building? Ambarīṣa: The building? It's stone, brownstone. Prabhupāda: Oh, then it's nice. Ambarīṣa: Very sound. Śrutikīrti: It's in a very nice area in Boston. Commonwealth Avenue was the most aristocratic street in Boston. The temple is right there, just one block from downtown. Prabhupāda: Near Commonwealth Pier? Śrutikīrti: Near Boston Commons. Boston Commons? The big park. Prabhupāda: Not park, there is a pier, pier, (pronounces "pire") what do you call? Ambarīṣa: Oh, pier, pier. Oh, yes, it is near there, Prabhupāda. That's where you landed. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) *Ambarīṣa: Yes, it is not far. We're having Ratha*-yātrā in Boston for the first time this year, and we're going to take the Ratha carts down to Commonwealth Pier in honor of your arrival. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) There is one A.P. store? Ambarīṣa: A.P.? *Prabhupāda: A*-P, A-P store. Ambarīṣa: Market? Yes, it's still there. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I saw first. (laughter) I remember. Ambarīṣa: So there are many nice projects going on in Boston. We are hoping that maybe sometime you can come. That would be very nice. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. From New York it is not . . . *Ambarīṣa: No, it is very close to New York, half*-hour airplane ride. Prabhupāda: So it is ready? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We were talking about different names for the restaurant yesterday. Śrutikīrti: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja did not care for "Saṅkīrtana Restaurant." (laughs) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I thought that there might be a name of Kṛṣṇa, like they were using "Govinda," but that's obviously a name for Kṛṣṇa. Because people don't . . . we wanted to camouflage. *Ambarīṣa: We wanted to have a name that was Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, just exclusively Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So we thought "Saṅkīrtana." No other movement . . . we're the saṅkīrtana movement. So we thought that name would show that it was exclusively Hare Kṛṣṇa, whereas many other Indians they have named their store "Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Store," stuff like this. So we thought . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Something perhaps more exotic. I was just thinking as a restaurant. Ambarīṣa: We wanted something that was exclusively . . . Prabhupāda: They have started "Govinda's"? Ambarīṣa: Yes, that is in Hawaii. Yes. Prabhupāda: Govinda's name is nice. Śrutikīrti: Yes, I always liked. Now Laguna Beach, they are also calling it "Govinda's." Prabhupāda: Yes, so why not continue this "Govinda's"? Ambarīṣa: Yes, we could. Okay. Śrutikīrti: It's very good publicity. If many are started, they are all "Govinda's," then everyone will recognize it. Ambarīṣa: Okay, there is no difficulty. *Prabhupāda: Govindam ādi*-puruṣam . So that's all right, "Govinda's." Ambarīṣa: Okay. (pause) Śrutikīrti: Hari-śauri looks like he can give a very good massage. He looks like he can give a very good massage. Prabhupāda: Mmm. Hari-śauri's one defect is he cannot cook. (laughter) Otherwise he is duplicate. Except cooking. He knows very good cooking. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He can eat though. He can eat prasāda . Śrutikīrti: So I can travel and cook? Prabhupāda: He can . . . a young man must eat. Why one should be like me? Ambarīṣa: Śrutikīrti and Jaya. Jaya , Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (tape continues after entrance of Eugene Stansky, or Stowsky, a Catholic priest who had met Prabhupāda and the devotees in L.A. and was now traveling with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja) Eugene: . . . the very best. Prabhupāda: Yes. Eugene: I'm very, very pleased. I feel very blessed by being with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: So just work cooperatively for the benefit of human society. We were just discussing our so many things. (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa) You can explain what I was talking. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How the present civilization is . . . just like here in Detroit, producing so many cars. Prabhupāda: Kalke teen char baar apnar bishoye khoj korechilam. Apni chilen na. (I inquired about you three or four times yesterday. You were not there.) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how long can this civilization go on, simply producing automobiles, like this? So the situation is that the people are always in a state of poverty. Just like the black people here in Detroit, even they are making sufficient money, still they are always in a state of poverty because they don't know how to live. Prabhupāda related one story that the capitalist and the worker, both of them, they went to the goddess of fortune appealing for a benediction. So the capitalist asked: "Give me such money that I will be able to work one day and it will last me for six months." And then the worker, he went and he said, "Give me one thousand dollars I have every day to spend." Prabhupāda: No, he said that, "Give me the same money as the capitalist will spend in six months. I shall spend every day. I shall get that money every day and I shall spend it." So this worker class, there is no culture. You may pay them heavy amount of money, but they will spend it and remain a poor man, because he has no culture. Eugene: This is true. *Prabhupāda: You see these black men. They earn sufficient money, but see their home. See their home. You America, you have given them equal rights, they are getting money, but they have no culture. Therefore you may pay them as much as you like, but still poverty*-stricken. In Africa also I have seen that they have got their own kingdom, independence, but if we go to the African slums, they are poverty-stricken, wretched. So this civilization will not endure. If there is no culture, simply by money you cannot maintain a standard of civilization. That is not possible. Now the American leaders, they are thinking, "Let us have money, then everything . . ." Of course, by money you are covering all the defects of the social culture. But this will not endure. Day will come when everything will be exposed. Therefore culture required. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda was explaining how in India even the poorest people, they live—husband, wife, family, like this—in very . . . Prabhupāda: Happy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . simple quarters. Prabhupāda: Happily they live. As soon as there is no quarrel between the husband and wife, the home will be happy. And as soon as there is misunderstanding between husband, wife, it will be hell. So the principle is the husband honestly tries to earn livelihood, and at home the wife should be so intelligent that whatever money the husband has earned, she'll manage. She'll not demand, "Bring money, bring money, bring money. Otherwise it cannot be . . ." Then the home will be happy. So where is that training? Hari-śauri: (explaining) Where is that training? Eugene: Well, there is no training here. There is no culture, as you pointed out. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say culture, not training. Eugene: As a matter of fact, even among the educated classes in the United States, there is no culture. There are no cultural roots. *Prabhupāda: No, no culture. There is no culture. There is no standard social life. Simply hodgepodge. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to bring everything in proper order. Everything is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . So America is the leading nation of the world. If you work on the principle of Bhagavad-gītā and train up your people, it will be ideal state and example for the whole world. At least a certain section of the American population should be ideal. That will also do. Not that . . . we cannot expect cent percent will take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not needed. But if there is one section of the people ideal, that will be followed. But we want to create that section, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Eugene: May I pose a question, Your Grace? It's less than two weeks that I'm asking you for the second time to instruct me. You gave me some very general instructions in my last audience, and I'm very grateful. Many things have transpired since then. I'm now here in Detroit; we'll be going on to Toronto very shortly. From Toronto to Chicago, and then I'm not sure what the agenda is. I'm tremendously pleased, because it's giving me an opportunity to work in the area that you said I should be working in. In addition to which I have ample time to study. And I have the assistance of Satsvarūpa with my studies. Now I have a question. I would like very much to keep a log of my daily activities and start preparing an outline of a book. Now the book very basically won't . . . I won't be starting on the book for at least a year, but I would like to start keeping a log. Prabhupāda: You can keep record. Eugene: Yes. Now the reason I would like to keep a log and prepare an outline and start a book, say a year from now, it would show a transition from Roman priesthood to Hare Kṛṣṇa devotee. I think this would open up the door to all of the colleges and universities across the country. Prabhupāda: Very good idea, yes. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). The nature is, if we get better engagement, we give up inferior engagement. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. So this will be an example. You are a Roman priest. You are educated, learned scholar also. So when you come to this movement, you do not come here by sentiment or by whims. You consider, then you have come. Eugene: This is what I wanted to say, that I'm not here because of sentiment. I'm here for very, very sound reasons, and I want to explain the reasons. *Prabhupāda: Therefore we are presenting these books, that we are not a so*-called sect of whimsical faith. It is based on science and authorities. Recently we have got report that our books have been taken in Hamburg University. You know Hamburg University? Eugene: Yes. Hari-śauri: East Germany. Prabhupāda: As their textbook for Sanskrit class. They found it so wonderful. Because for Sanskrit scholar it is good opportunity to learn Sanskrit, because each word we have given in English and German synonyms. Eugene: I want very much to learn basic Sanskrit, but I have so much to learn right now that, ah . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is not necessary. But those who are interested in studying Sanskrit literature, for them it is very good help. And at the same time they get sublime knowledge. Eugene: Indeed. Prabhupāda: They study Sanskrit and get knowledge. So you have kindly come to join us. You study our philosophy very minutely, and then try to do something for the suffering humanity. The saintly persons, at least in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement, they are not meant for idle life. They are always busy for the welfare of the whole human society. This is the sign of saintly person. They are misguided and they are suffering, and it is the duty of the saintly person to give them instruction, education, how they can become really happy and make their life successful. This is saintly person. A saintly person doesn't mean to live at other's expenditure and do all nonsense things. This is not saintly person. Hmm. Ki kotha bolben . . . (What were you saying . . .) (break) You asked me some question? Eugene: Well, I wanted to know whether it would be all right to keep the log and to write at the . . . work out the outline for the book. You told me to go ahead. So I will do that. Basically, this is what I wanted to do. I would like to continue with the group. I would like to travel with the group and keep an accurate log and start an outline and see, possibly within a year's time, I will have sufficient material to start the book. Prabhupāda: That's nice, huh? You like this idea? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ajke ingreji koto tarik? Ingreji? (What is the date today according to the English calendar?) These boys who are working for this movement? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How do you like our men, the devotees? Eugene: Oh, I'm very, very impressed. This impressed me to begin with—their enthusiasm, their joy, and their complete surrender. This is what . . . Prabhupāda: That is the qualification. Eugene: This is the qualification. *Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). That is the secret of success. If one has got unflinching faith in his spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, then he's successful. Two things. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā-pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). So if the guru is false, then how they can keep their faith? That will be broken. Our process is very simple. There is no difficulty. You have seen our Los Angeles temple? Eugene: Yes. Prabhupāda: When we purchased, it was a church, perhaps you know. Nobody was coming, so that they were obliged to sell. They started this Sunday class, this, that, so many things. In Melbourne also we have seen a big . . . what was that? Hari-śauri: It used to be what they call a Christian Brothers school. Prabhupāda: That we wanted to purchase? Hari-śauri: Oh, that nunnery. Prabhupāda: Nunnery. So they wanted to maintain themselves by becoming washermen. Still, they could not maintain. They eventually became washermen . . . washerwoman, to maintain. Huge establishment. So I wanted, negotiation was there. They persisted that the church should not be broken. No? To be broken. Hari-śauri: Yes, there were different sections. They had a school there and . . . Prabhupāda: So we thought that we shall use it as temple. That they disagreed. "No, you cannot keep it. You have to break it, then we can sell to you." Then why shall I break it? We shall pay for it and break it? No. Then the negotiation failed. But a huge land, and we are prepared to purchase. In England, in London, I was . . . one, two churches I was negotiating, and one church, that man, he said, "I'll burn into ashes. I'll not sell it to Bhaktivedanta." (laughs) Recently we wanted to purchase in St. James Park one nice house. So they did not give us. They . . . we offered better price; still they did not give us. Eugene: Your Grace, the thing that impressed me the very most at the temple in Los Angeles . . . now you must bear in mind that I am very, very steeped in Catholicism, I'm very steeped in the New Testament. So when I observed what was happening at the temple in Los Angeles, I was seeing the Book of Acts coming to life—something that died three hundred years ago in the Roman church. In 300 A.D. it died. Since then there's been no such example. And I was just amazed, wandering around, because there I saw the exact book, the Book of Acts. And I was impressed. Indian girl: Humne aaj subah me record kiya tha. (I recorded it in the morning.) Prabhupāda: That's alright. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) (Conversation with Ambarisa and Catholic Priest) *Śrutikīrti: We took a few pictures that you could see. We took some pictures for you to look at of the restaurant. It's still being built, so there's not actually that much to see. (break) This street that it's on is very heavily traveled all day. This is taken at about five o'clock in the morning, so there's no one there. It's still under construction, you can see all the cinderblocks inside. But it's all*-glass building. Prabhupāda: It is being rented or purchased? Śrutikīrti: That's still being worked out. I think . . . Ambarīṣa: I think we're going to purchase. Śrutikīrti: . . . Ambarīṣa is purchasing. Prabhupāda: The back building? That is a different building? Śrutikīrti: No, yeah. This is condominiums, houses, for people living above, so the restaurant is just that one floor. That's what we would be purchasing, not the whole building. Ambarīṣa: The kitchen is inside the big building. *Śrutikīrti: But it's very choice space. It's just two blocks from what's called the Ritz Hotel, which is most famous hotel in the country, they have in every large city. These pictures, that glassed*-in area, that would all be just the serving area. Then the kitchen is behind the wall. There would be a large kitchen facility, where all the devotees would be cooking. Prabhupāda: Kitchen is within the building? Śrutikīrti and Ambarīṣa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So one*-story building also included? *Ambarīṣa: Yes, there's a kitchen and dish*-washing room and office, storage . . . Śrutikīrti: Storage space, office. All inside. Prabhupāda: Nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Did you explain that it was being built for someone who was going to start a restaurant, but they didn't? Śrutikīrti: Yes. They ran out of money, these people, and there were so many restrictions at this location because of these buildings here. People live there, and they didn't want anyone in there who was going to cook meat. And they didn't want anyone who was going to serve intoxication. So practically we're the only people that don't serve meat and intoxication. So it's actually . . . they are very glad. Ambarīṣa: The man who owns it says he gets fifty phone calls every day of people who want that space. It's such a good space that fifty people a day call. Prabhupāda: Fifty? Śrutikīrti: People are very interested. The location is excellent. It's on one of the most important streets in all of Boston. Ambarīṣa: Once we get open we'll be able to serve a thousand people a day. Prabhupāda: Oh. And what you are charging? Ambarīṣa: We're charging anywhere between three and eight dollars. Eight dollars for a very big plate, many preparations and different nectars and very sumptuous feast for eight dollars. And then if you just want a sandwich or something a little smaller, you can pay just three dollars. We think we'll be making about . . . how much? About half a million dollars a year, which will all go to you, Prabhupāda. (laughter) So we couldn't call the restaurant the "Hare Kṛṣṇa Restaurant" because there were some restrictions in the block, so we were thinking we'd call it "Saṅkīrtana." That's okay? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They are Hare Kṛṣṇa phobia. They are afraid. Śrutikīrti and Ambarīṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have suggested "Saṅkīrtana"? Ambarīṣa: Yes, they think that is nice. They do not know what that means. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Just like our Haridāsa. You know Haridāsa? Bombay? *Ambarīṣa: Yes, uh*-huh. Prabhupāda: He, Moscow, he was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa on the street, and when people asked, "What is this?" "This is cinema song." Ambarīṣa: Sometimes as devotees we have to be a little bit crooked. Prabhupāda: (indistinct Hindi) . . . we shall do everything as the material person does, karmīs do, but we have to do everything for Kṛṣṇa, not person. Then it is all right. So? Śrutikīrti: There's one thing. Our best hours, some of the best business in the restaurant, would be very late at night, like between nine to eleven o'clock at night. So is that all right as long as we can arrange . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Śrutikīrti: . . . everyone's following the program? People are up 'til midnight? Ambarīṣa: Still they will come to the morning program. Prabhupāda: But there will be picture of Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Ambarīṣa: Yes. *Śrutikīrti: We should have a nice altar, small altar, Pañca*-tattva. Ambarīṣa: The temple is only one block away. We were wondering, should we offer the food to the Deities in the temple or should we offer it in the restaurant? Prabhupāda: Better in the restaurant. Ambarīṣa: Better in the restaurant. Yes, that is a little easier also. Prabhupāda: They must know that they're eating prasādam . Ambarīṣa: Yes, yes. Śrutikīrti: There was one other thing. Mānasvī, he is outside of New York, and I don't know very much what his position is. I talked to him once. He wanted to see you in New York, I don't know if you know that, because he says that all these things are not true. No. *Prabhupāda: He's a thief. He has taken about twenty*-five thousand dollars. He's a thief from the very beginning. What he is doing now? Śrutikīrti: He's working two jobs. They won't allow him in the temple. I think you sent one letter or something. Prabhupāda: No, he should not be admitted. *Ambarīṣa: Also in Boston there's a lady who may be donating a million*-dollar farm to the Boston temple. This is just a project that's a little bit . . . that's just started, and she wants to donate her farm. So that is also going on, and also the temple is purchasing the building next door. I gave them some money for a down payment on it so they could buy the building next door to use it to house the people that are living in the restaurant and also for the Bhaktivedanta Institute, because I think the Bhaktivedanta Institute is going to be in Boston. Mādhava is there. Prabhupāda: Yes, Boston is nice place for the Institute. Śrutikīrti: Best place for it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's the educational center of America. Ambarīṣa: Academic center of the United States. So now we are fixing up the temple very nicely. We've spent about fifty thousand dollars putting in all new tile floor and a beautiful new onyx altar. Very, very gorgeous. Prabhupāda: So it is framework or solid building? Ambarīṣa: The building? It's stone, brownstone. Prabhupāda: Oh, then it's nice. Ambarīṣa: Very sound. Śrutikīrti: It's in a very nice area in Boston. Commonwealth Avenue was the most aristocratic street in Boston. The temple is right there, just one block from downtown. Prabhupāda: Near Commonwealth Pier? Śrutikīrti: Near Boston Commons. Boston Commons? The big park. Prabhupāda: Not park, there is a pier, pier, (pronounces "pire") what do you call? Ambarīṣa: Oh, pier, pier. Oh, yes, it is near there, Prabhupāda. That's where you landed. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) *Ambarīṣa: Yes, it is not far. We're having Ratha*-yātrā in Boston for the first time this year, and we're going to take the Ratha carts down to Commonwealth Pier in honor of your arrival. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) There is one A.P. store? Ambarīṣa: A.P.? *Prabhupāda: A*-P, A-P store. Ambarīṣa: Market? Yes, it's still there. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I saw first. (laughter) I remember. Ambarīṣa: So there are many nice projects going on in Boston. We are hoping that maybe sometime you can come. That would be very nice. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. From New York it is not . . . *Ambarīṣa: No, it is very close to New York, half*-hour airplane ride. Prabhupāda: So it is ready? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We were talking about different names for the restaurant yesterday. Śrutikīrti: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja did not care for "Saṅkīrtana Restaurant." (laughs) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I thought that there might be a name of Kṛṣṇa, like they were using "Govinda," but that's obviously a name for Kṛṣṇa. Because people don't . . . we wanted to camouflage. *Ambarīṣa: We wanted to have a name that was Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, just exclusively Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So we thought "Saṅkīrtana." No other movement . . . we're the saṅkīrtana movement. So we thought that name would show that it was exclusively Hare Kṛṣṇa, whereas many other Indians they have named their store "Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Store," stuff like this. So we thought . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Something perhaps more exotic. I was just thinking as a restaurant. Ambarīṣa: We wanted something that was exclusively . . . Prabhupāda: They have started "Govinda's"? Ambarīṣa: Yes, that is in Hawaii. Yes. Prabhupāda: Govinda's name is nice. Śrutikīrti: Yes, I always liked. Now Laguna Beach, they are also calling it "Govinda's." Prabhupāda: Yes, so why not continue this "Govinda's"? Ambarīṣa: Yes, we could. Okay. Śrutikīrti: It's very good publicity. If many are started, they are all "Govinda's," then everyone will recognize it. Ambarīṣa: Okay, there is no difficulty. *Prabhupāda: Govindam ādi*-puruṣam . So that's all right, "Govinda's." Ambarīṣa: Okay. (pause) Śrutikīrti: Hari-śauri looks like he can give a very good massage. He looks like he can give a very good massage. Prabhupāda: Mmm. Hari-śauri's one defect is he cannot cook. (laughter) Otherwise he is duplicate. Except cooking. He knows very good cooking. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He can eat though. He can eat prasāda . Śrutikīrti: So I can travel and cook? Prabhupāda: He can . . . a young man must eat. Why one should be like me? Ambarīṣa: Śrutikīrti and Jaya. Jaya , Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (tape continues after entrance of Eugene Stansky, or Stowsky, a Catholic priest who had met Prabhupāda and the devotees in L.A. and was now traveling with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja) Eugene: . . . the very best. Prabhupāda: Yes. Eugene: I'm very, very pleased. I feel very blessed by being with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: So just work cooperatively for the benefit of human society. We were just discussing our so many things. (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa) You can explain what I was talking. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How the present civilization is . . . just like here in Detroit, producing so many cars. Prabhupāda: Kalke teen char baar apnar bishoye khoj korechilam. Apni chilen na. (I inquired about you three or four times yesterday. You were not there.) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how long can this civilization go on, simply producing automobiles, like this? So the situation is that the people are always in a state of poverty. Just like the black people here in Detroit, even they are making sufficient money, still they are always in a state of poverty because they don't know how to live. Prabhupāda related one story that the capitalist and the worker, both of them, they went to the goddess of fortune appealing for a benediction. So the capitalist asked: "Give me such money that I will be able to work one day and it will last me for six months." And then the worker, he went and he said, "Give me one thousand dollars I have every day to spend." Prabhupāda: No, he said that, "Give me the same money as the capitalist will spend in six months. I shall spend every day. I shall get that money every day and I shall spend it." So this worker class, there is no culture. You may pay them heavy amount of money, but they will spend it and remain a poor man, because he has no culture. Eugene: This is true. *Prabhupāda: You see these black men. They earn sufficient money, but see their home. See their home. You America, you have given them equal rights, they are getting money, but they have no culture. Therefore you may pay them as much as you like, but still poverty*-stricken. In Africa also I have seen that they have got their own kingdom, independence, but if we go to the African slums, they are poverty-stricken, wretched. So this civilization will not endure. If there is no culture, simply by money you cannot maintain a standard of civilization. That is not possible. Now the American leaders, they are thinking, "Let us have money, then everything . . ." Of course, by money you are covering all the defects of the social culture. But this will not endure. Day will come when everything will be exposed. Therefore culture required. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda was explaining how in India even the poorest people, they live—husband, wife, family, like this—in very . . . Prabhupāda: Happy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . simple quarters. Prabhupāda: Happily they live. As soon as there is no quarrel between the husband and wife, the home will be happy. And as soon as there is misunderstanding between husband, wife, it will be hell. So the principle is the husband honestly tries to earn livelihood, and at home the wife should be so intelligent that whatever money the husband has earned, she'll manage. She'll not demand, "Bring money, bring money, bring money. Otherwise it cannot be . . ." Then the home will be happy. So where is that training? Hari-śauri: (explaining) Where is that training? Eugene: Well, there is no training here. There is no culture, as you pointed out. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say culture, not training. Eugene: As a matter of fact, even among the educated classes in the United States, there is no culture. There are no cultural roots. *Prabhupāda: No, no culture. There is no culture. There is no standard social life. Simply hodgepodge. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to bring everything in proper order. Everything is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . So America is the leading nation of the world. If you work on the principle of Bhagavad-gītā and train up your people, it will be ideal state and example for the whole world. At least a certain section of the American population should be ideal. That will also do. Not that . . . we cannot expect cent percent will take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not needed. But if there is one section of the people ideal, that will be followed. But we want to create that section, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Eugene: May I pose a question, Your Grace? It's less than two weeks that I'm asking you for the second time to instruct me. You gave me some very general instructions in my last audience, and I'm very grateful. Many things have transpired since then. I'm now here in Detroit; we'll be going on to Toronto very shortly. From Toronto to Chicago, and then I'm not sure what the agenda is. I'm tremendously pleased, because it's giving me an opportunity to work in the area that you said I should be working in. In addition to which I have ample time to study. And I have the assistance of Satsvarūpa with my studies. Now I have a question. I would like very much to keep a log of my daily activities and start preparing an outline of a book. Now the book very basically won't . . . I won't be starting on the book for at least a year, but I would like to start keeping a log. Prabhupāda: You can keep record. Eugene: Yes. Now the reason I would like to keep a log and prepare an outline and start a book, say a year from now, it would show a transition from Roman priesthood to Hare Kṛṣṇa devotee. I think this would open up the door to all of the colleges and universities across the country. Prabhupāda: Very good idea, yes. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). The nature is, if we get better engagement, we give up inferior engagement. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. So this will be an example. You are a Roman priest. You are educated, learned scholar also. So when you come to this movement, you do not come here by sentiment or by whims. You consider, then you have come. Eugene: This is what I wanted to say, that I'm not here because of sentiment. I'm here for very, very sound reasons, and I want to explain the reasons. *Prabhupāda: Therefore we are presenting these books, that we are not a so*-called sect of whimsical faith. It is based on science and authorities. Recently we have got report that our books have been taken in Hamburg University. You know Hamburg University? Eugene: Yes. Hari-śauri: East Germany. Prabhupāda: As their textbook for Sanskrit class. They found it so wonderful. Because for Sanskrit scholar it is good opportunity to learn Sanskrit, because each word we have given in English and German synonyms. Eugene: I want very much to learn basic Sanskrit, but I have so much to learn right now that, ah . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is not necessary. But those who are interested in studying Sanskrit literature, for them it is very good help. And at the same time they get sublime knowledge. Eugene: Indeed. Prabhupāda: They study Sanskrit and get knowledge. So you have kindly come to join us. You study our philosophy very minutely, and then try to do something for the suffering humanity. The saintly persons, at least in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement, they are not meant for idle life. They are always busy for the welfare of the whole human society. This is the sign of saintly person. They are misguided and they are suffering, and it is the duty of the saintly person to give them instruction, education, how they can become really happy and make their life successful. This is saintly person. A saintly person doesn't mean to live at other's expenditure and do all nonsense things. This is not saintly person. Hmm. Ki kotha bolben . . . (What were you saying . . .) (break) You asked me some question? Eugene: Well, I wanted to know whether it would be all right to keep the log and to write at the . . . work out the outline for the book. You told me to go ahead. So I will do that. Basically, this is what I wanted to do. I would like to continue with the group. I would like to travel with the group and keep an accurate log and start an outline and see, possibly within a year's time, I will have sufficient material to start the book. Prabhupāda: That's nice, huh? You like this idea? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ajke ingreji koto tarik? Ingreji? (What is the date today according to the English calendar?) These boys who are working for this movement? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How do you like our men, the devotees? Eugene: Oh, I'm very, very impressed. This impressed me to begin with—their enthusiasm, their joy, and their complete surrender. This is what . . . Prabhupāda: That is the qualification. Eugene: This is the qualification. *Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). That is the secret of success. If one has got unflinching faith in his spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, then he's successful. Two things. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā-pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). So if the guru is false, then how they can keep their faith? That will be broken. Our process is very simple. There is no difficulty. You have seen our Los Angeles temple? Eugene: Yes. Prabhupāda: When we purchased, it was a church, perhaps you know. Nobody was coming, so that they were obliged to sell. They started this Sunday class, this, that, so many things. In Melbourne also we have seen a big . . . what was that? Hari-śauri: It used to be what they call a Christian Brothers school. Prabhupāda: That we wanted to purchase? Hari-śauri: Oh, that nunnery. Prabhupāda: Nunnery. So they wanted to maintain themselves by becoming washermen. Still, they could not maintain. They eventually became washermen . . . washerwoman, to maintain. Huge establishment. So I wanted, negotiation was there. They persisted that the church should not be broken. No? To be broken. Hari-śauri: Yes, there were different sections. They had a school there and . . . Prabhupāda: So we thought that we shall use it as temple. That they disagreed. "No, you cannot keep it. You have to break it, then we can sell to you." Then why shall I break it? We shall pay for it and break it? No. Then the negotiation failed. But a huge land, and we are prepared to purchase. In England, in London, I was . . . one, two churches I was negotiating, and one church, that man, he said, "I'll burn into ashes. I'll not sell it to Bhaktivedanta." (laughs) Recently we wanted to purchase in St. James Park one nice house. So they did not give us. They . . . we offered better price; still they did not give us. Eugene: Your Grace, the thing that impressed me the very most at the temple in Los Angeles . . . now you must bear in mind that I am very, very steeped in Catholicism, I'm very steeped in the New Testament. So when I observed what was happening at the temple in Los Angeles, I was seeing the Book of Acts coming to life—something that died three hundred years ago in the Roman church. In 300 A.D. it died. Since then there's been no such example. And I was just amazed, wandering around, because there I saw the exact book, the Book of Acts. And I was impressed. Indian girl: Humne aaj subah me record kiya tha. (I recorded it in the morning.) Prabhupāda: That's alright. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) (Conversation with George Gullen, President of Wayne State University) George Gullen: . . . I'm the president of Wayne State University. I'm very pleased to be asked to come and visit with you. (break) Prabhupāda: You have studied something about our philosophy? George Gullen: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: I am asking, you have studied something about our philosophy? George Gullen: A little. Not very much. I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be, I'm certain. Prabhupāda: It is not a sectarian movement. (to someone else) Why you stop? Yes. (to Gullen) It is essential knowledge for the whole human society. There are two things: matter and spirit. We can understand, every one of us, we are combination of two things: matter and spirit. The matter is the body, and the spirit is the moving force. *George Gullen: Um*-hm, I hear what you're saying, yes. Prabhupāda: But the modern civilization, throughout the whole world, they are very serious about the matter, but they are completely in ignorance about the spirit. What is your opinion about these things? George Gullen: I understand that very clearly, and I think we're caught up terribly in matters that are not of the spirit. We're terribly caught up in materialistic things. Prabhupāda: But material, that is temporary. This body—your body, my body, anyone's body—that is temporary. It will not stay. It has taken birth at a certain date, it will endure for certain years, and then it will be finished. But the spirit, that will continue. It will accept another body. Just like we are accepting . . . we are giving up our body, childhood body, accepting the body of a boy, then giving up the boyhood body, accepting the body of a young man. Similarly, this body . . . just like I am an old man. This will be finished, and I will accept another body. So the spirit soul is eternal, and the body is temporary. So we are taking care of the body very much. That is also required. But what about the spirit soul? This education is lacking. George Gullen: Yes, this is true. My father was a Christian minister all of his life, and he had very deep beliefs about the spiritual matters. He felt very strongly, as you do, that the body was temporal, temporary, and that his spirit would find its way into some other form of life, and he believed very strongly in life after human death, very much so. He believed in a matter he called cosmic consciousness, in which the spirit had far greater powers than physical powers. He had similar kinds, I believe, of beliefs that you do. I have some beliefs myself that the human body being quite temporary, that years are not long for it, that there must be more to life than just the physical side. Prabhupāda: Everyone's body is temporary, either human body or cat's body, dog's body. But the human body is important because in the human body we have developed consciousness by which we can understand what is God. The cats and dogs, they cannot. They haven't got that developed consciousness. Therefore if we do not use this developed consciousness for understanding God and our relationship with Him, then we are no better than cats and dogs. Cats and dogs cannot be educated about God, but a human being can be educated. That is the distinction between animals and man. But modern education is keeping them in ignorance about God, so they are no better than cats and dogs. And how can bring peace among cats and dogs? Can you bring in peace calling all the dogs of your city and sit down peacefully? No, that is not possible. So if we keep our citizens like cats and dogs, then how we can expect peace? George Gullen: We are much in ignorance about those matters, I understand that, and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Complete ignorance, like animals. So the leaders of the society, if they are serious about advancement of human civilization, they must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness; otherwise, they'll be baffled. George Gullen: Well, we do not teach about these things . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the defect. George Gullen: . . . in public schools because we do not know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now whether still we shall remain in ignorance or we shall learn this science and teach? That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a sectarian religious movement. No, it is not that. This is science, scientific movement. So leading personalities like you, teachers, professors and other leading men, they should try to understand what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, and join. It is for the human society, it is not for a certain section. George Gullen: I would like very much to know more about these matters myself, personally. Prabhupāda: So kindly do that. You are little interested. So we are receiving orders from all universities, colleges, of our books. You have seen our books? These are our books. Satsvarūpa: Wayne State University, where he is president, they have standing orders. Prabhupāda: Ah, we have also given. That is very nice. So every person, responsible person, he should learn this science and introduce, so that the opportunity a human being has got, that must be utilized. George Gullen: I'm sure there are many interpretations of what you say. I have an interest in these matters, and I want to know more about yours, very much so. I will see that I get your literature and read it. *Prabhupāda: Your father was also interested. That means naturally you have got some instinct from father, hereditary instinct. That is natural. So we want that . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā there is a verse. (aside) Find out: Hari-śauri: 3.21. "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues." Prabhupāda: Purport? *Hari-śauri: Purport: "People in general always require a leader who can teach the public by practical behavior. A leader cannot teach the public to stop smoking if he himself smokes. Lord Caitanya said that a teacher should behave properly even before he begins teaching. One who teaches in that way is called ācārya , or the ideal teacher. Therefore, a teacher must follow the principles of śāstra , scripture, to reach the common man. The teacher cannot manufacture rules against the principles of revealed scriptures. The revealed scriptures, like Manu*-saṁhitā and others, are considered the standard books to be followed by human society. Thus the leader's teaching should be based on the principles of the standard rules as they are practiced by the great teachers. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also affirms that one should follow in the footsteps of great devotees, and this is the way of progress on the path of spiritual realization. The king or the executive head of a state, the father and the schoolteacher are all considered to be natural leaders of the innocent people in general. All such natural leaders have a great responsibility to their dependents; therefore they must be conversant with standard books of moral and spiritual codes." George Gullen: Very good, very good. I believe all that. Every word. The people need leadership, inspiration, that they can follow with their whole heart. They cannot follow . . . *Prabhupāda: There must be practice. That we are teaching. That simply not theoretical, but practical. Here in our institute, we teach all the students practically how to become God conscious. Theoretical knowledge will not help us. There must be practical behavior. They are rising early in the morning, attending maṅgala-ārati , then having class, Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , chanting. In this way, twenty-four hours engaged. It is not fifteen minutes' recreation. No. Twenty-four hours' program. George Gullen: I think this is good for the world. I think the world needs it, very much so. Prabhupāda: So we are trying, although we are not supported by any government, we are trying in our own way. Own way . . . the way is standard, but unfortunately people have lost interest in these things. Animal life. As soon as we forget our interest in spiritual life, then immediately we're animals. George Gullen: We're very much creatures of habit, and it's difficult for us to give up our habits. *Prabhupāda: Habit can be changed. Habit can be changed by practice. Just like we advise no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat*-eating. So all these Europeans, Americans, they were habituated to all these habits, but now they have stopped. It can be, by practice, bad habits can be changed. George Gullen: You appear to have a program of great discipline, and I think that discipline is necessary for people who want to feel and learn and understand. I'm an admirer of discipline of that kind. But it's hard for one to bring oneself to do that out of a world that's strange, a strange world—our world is strange—try to bring myself out of that to other things. But I'm pleased to have this opportunity to hear you and to think about it, talk about it. I'd like to read more about it. Prabhupāda: One priest has joined us. What is his name? Satsvarūpa: Eugene Stowsky. Prabhupāda: He's Ph.D. He has recently joined us. He likes this movement. George Gullen: I'm sure it satisfies a deep need. I'm sure that's true. *Prabhupāda: No, it is the need of the human society. There is no alternative. In the Vedic mantra it is said, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). One must accept this. Otherwise, his human life is spoiled. If you simply trained up to live like an animal, then it is a great harm to the human society. George Gullen: I think our educational program at our university is very important to people if it helps them think and understand and begin to feel. We don't educate the heart, and I think there's something wrong about that. I think that the heart needs an education. There's some feelings one has to understand and some responses. We're inadequate in this respect, I . . . Prabhupāda: No, the thing is . . . suppose a person, by his right, has to get so much money from his father's property. If somebody does not give him that money or somehow or other checks him to get the money, so that's a very heinous act. If he is actually inheritor of the father's property, he must get it. That is justice. Similarly, in the human form of life, one can get this education. If this education is lacking, that means we are envious; *we're not giving the opportunity of fulfilling the right. And without this education, there is chance of falling down. Just like tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Another body you have to accept. If you do not give proper education, then next body may be lower than human being. There are so many different types of bodies, 8,400,000. So according to our mentality, we get another body. Nature's law. Nobody can check it. This life I may be very satisfied that, "I have got this body. Let me enjoy without any responsibility and become an animal." That's not very good civilization. They do not believe in the next life. Big, big educated men, they have no brain even to understand that we are changing every moment the body, and they don't believe that body changes and the soul continues. Dhīras tatra na muhyati . (aside) Find out this verse. Hari-śauri: *"As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." George Gullen: These are difficult words to understand, but I appreciate them. Prabhupāda: Therefore dhīra . . . dhīras tatra. Dhīra means sober gentleman. Dhīra. Dhīra means gentleman. So if one does not understand this simple truth, he's not even a gentleman, what to speak of learned scholar. Dhīras tatra na muhyati . That means every gentleman must have this education. And what is the use? What is the meaning of dhīra ? Hari-śauri: Sober. Satsvarūpa: Learned. Prabhupāda: That is gentleman. So one who does not understand this philosophy of life is not fit to be addressed as gentleman. It is commonsense knowledge. George Gullen: My father used to speak of the Oversoul, that I think had some similarity to these words that we just read, that the soul that is above . . . *Prabhupāda: We call Supersoul, that is God. The idea is in Christianity also, "Holy Ghost" like that. Supersoul and the ordinary soul. We living entities, we are ordinary souls, and God in His all*-pervading feature, He is Supersoul. (aside) Find out this verse: kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: Kṣetra*-kṣetrajñayor jñānaṁ yat taj jñānaṁ yat anyatā. English? Hari-śauri: "O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its owner is called knowledge. That is My opinion." *Prabhupāda: First of all knowledge means kṣetra*-kṣetrajña. The body is the field of activity. You are acting, I am also acting, everyone is acting—according to the body. But the actor is called kṣetrajña . Just like a cultivator is tilling the land, his own, and the tiller is cultivator. Similarly, this body is an analogy of this field, and we are tilling. So Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am also one of the tillers." Just like the tenant and the landlord. In an apartment house, the tenant is occupier of a certain house, certain apartment, but the landlord is the owner of the whole house. So God says: "I am also kṣetrajña —but for all the building," everything that is there, all planets, all, everywhere. That is His all-pervasiveness. I am the proprietor of this body, owner of this body, but God is proprietor of all the bodies. In this way that is explained. (aside) Purport? Hari-śauri: Purport: "While discussing the subject of this body and the owner of the body, the soul and the Supersoul, we shall find three different topics of study—the Lord, the living entity and matter. In every field of activities, in every body, there are two souls—the individual soul and the Supersoul. Because the Supersoul is the plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says: 'I am also the knower, but I am not the individual owner of the body. I am the superknower. I am present in every body as the Paramātmā, or Supersoul.' " *"One who studies the subject matter of the field of activity and the knower of the field very minutely, in terms of this Bhagavad*-gītā , can attain to knowledge. The Lord says, 'I am the knower of the field of activities in every individual body.' The individual may be the knower of his own body, but he is not in knowledge of other bodies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is present as the Supersoul in all bodies, knows everything about all bodies. He knows all the different bodies of all the various species of life. A citizen may know everything about his patch of land, but the king knows not only his palace but all the properties possessed by the individual citizens. Similarly, one may be the proprietor of the body individually, but the Supreme Lord is the proprietor of all bodies. The king is the original proprietor of the kingdom, and the citizen is the secondary proprietor. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the supreme proprietor of all bodies." "The body consists of the senses. The Supreme Lord is Hṛṣīkeśa, which means controller of the senses. He is the original controller of the senses, just as the king is the original controller of all activities within the state, and the citizens are secondary controllers. The Lord also says: 'I am also the knower.' This means that He is the superknower; the individual soul knows only his particular body. In Vedic literature, it is also stated . . ." Prabhupāda: Just like pains and pleasure. You know your bodily pains and pleasure, I know my body. But I do not know your bodily pains, neither you know mine. But God knows everyone's pains and pleasures. That is the difference between God and individual soul. *Hari-śauri: "This body is called kṣetra , and within it dwells the owner of the body and the Supreme Lord, who knows both the body and the owner of the body. Therefore He is called the knower of all fields. The distinction between the field of activities, the owner of activities and the supreme owner of activities is described as follows. Perfect knowledge of the constitution of the body, the constitution of the individual soul and the constitution of the Supersoul is known in terms of Vedic literature as jñānam . That is the opinion of Kṛṣṇa. To understand both the soul and the Supersoul as one yet distinct is knowledge. One who does not understand the field of activity and the knower of activity is not in perfect knowledge. One has to understand the position of prakṛti , nature, and puruṣa , the enjoyer of the nature, and īśvara , the knower who dominates or controls nature and the individual soul. One should not confuse the three in their different capacities. One should not confuse the painter, the painting and the easel. This material world, which is the field of activities, is nature, and the enjoyer of nature is the living entity, and above them both is the supreme controller, the Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the Vedic language: bhoktā bhogyaṁ preritāraṁ ca matvā / sarvaṁ proktaṁ tri*-vidhaṁ brahmam etat (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 1.12). There are three Brahman conceptions: prakṛti is Brahman as the field of activities, and the jīva (individual soul) is also Brahman and is trying to control the material nature, and the controller of both of them is also Brahman, but He is the factual controller." "In this chapter it will be also explained that out of the two knowers, one is fallible and the other is infallible. One is superior and the other is subordinate. One who understands the two knowers of the field to be one and the same contradicts the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who states here very clearly that 'I am also the knower of the field of activity.' One who misunderstands a rope to be a serpent is not in knowledge. There are different kinds of bodies, and there are different owners of the bodies. Because each individual soul has his individual capacity of lording it over material nature, there are different bodies. But the Supreme also is present in them as the controller. The word ca is significant, for it indicates the total number of bodies. That is the opinion of Śrīla Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa: Kṛṣṇa is the Supersoul present in each and every body apart from the individual soul. And Kṛṣṇa explicitly says here that the Supersoul is the controller of both the field of activities and the finite enjoyer." George Gullen: Thank you for reading this to me. I'm afraid I must be discourteous and leave you at the moment. I am speaking at a dinner meeting for my university. Prabhupāda: All right. George Gullen: I was delighted with Miss Reuther's call, for the chance to come and for this opportunity to listen to you, and I'm very grateful to her for calling. Prabhupāda: Give him some prasādam . Lekhaśravantī: Here's some prasādam . George Gullen: Oh, thank you very much. (end) (Conversation with George Gullen, President of Wayne State University) George Gullen: . . . I'm the president of Wayne State University. I'm very pleased to be asked to come and visit with you. (break) Prabhupāda: You have studied something about our philosophy? George Gullen: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: I am asking, you have studied something about our philosophy? George Gullen: A little. Not very much. I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be, I'm certain. Prabhupāda: It is not a sectarian movement. (to someone else) Why you stop? Yes. (to Gullen) It is essential knowledge for the whole human society. There are two things: matter and spirit. We can understand, every one of us, we are combination of two things: matter and spirit. The matter is the body, and the spirit is the moving force. *George Gullen: Um*-hm, I hear what you're saying, yes. Prabhupāda: But the modern civilization, throughout the whole world, they are very serious about the matter, but they are completely in ignorance about the spirit. What is your opinion about these things? George Gullen: I understand that very clearly, and I think we're caught up terribly in matters that are not of the spirit. We're terribly caught up in materialistic things. Prabhupāda: But material, that is temporary. This body—your body, my body, anyone's body—that is temporary. It will not stay. It has taken birth at a certain date, it will endure for certain years, and then it will be finished. But the spirit, that will continue. It will accept another body. Just like we are accepting . . . we are giving up our body, childhood body, accepting the body of a boy, then giving up the boyhood body, accepting the body of a young man. Similarly, this body . . . just like I am an old man. This will be finished, and I will accept another body. So the spirit soul is eternal, and the body is temporary. So we are taking care of the body very much. That is also required. But what about the spirit soul? This education is lacking. George Gullen: Yes, this is true. My father was a Christian minister all of his life, and he had very deep beliefs about the spiritual matters. He felt very strongly, as you do, that the body was temporal, temporary, and that his spirit would find its way into some other form of life, and he believed very strongly in life after human death, very much so. He believed in a matter he called cosmic consciousness, in which the spirit had far greater powers than physical powers. He had similar kinds, I believe, of beliefs that you do. I have some beliefs myself that the human body being quite temporary, that years are not long for it, that there must be more to life than just the physical side. Prabhupāda: Everyone's body is temporary, either human body or cat's body, dog's body. But the human body is important because in the human body we have developed consciousness by which we can understand what is God. The cats and dogs, they cannot. They haven't got that developed consciousness. Therefore if we do not use this developed consciousness for understanding God and our relationship with Him, then we are no better than cats and dogs. Cats and dogs cannot be educated about God, but a human being can be educated. That is the distinction between animals and man. But modern education is keeping them in ignorance about God, so they are no better than cats and dogs. And how can bring peace among cats and dogs? Can you bring in peace calling all the dogs of your city and sit down peacefully? No, that is not possible. So if we keep our citizens like cats and dogs, then how we can expect peace? George Gullen: We are much in ignorance about those matters, I understand that, and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Complete ignorance, like animals. So the leaders of the society, if they are serious about advancement of human civilization, they must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness; otherwise, they'll be baffled. George Gullen: Well, we do not teach about these things . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the defect. George Gullen: . . . in public schools because we do not know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now whether still we shall remain in ignorance or we shall learn this science and teach? That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a sectarian religious movement. No, it is not that. This is science, scientific movement. So leading personalities like you, teachers, professors and other leading men, they should try to understand what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, and join. It is for the human society, it is not for a certain section. George Gullen: I would like very much to know more about these matters myself, personally. Prabhupāda: So kindly do that. You are little interested. So we are receiving orders from all universities, colleges, of our books. You have seen our books? These are our books. Satsvarūpa: Wayne State University, where he is president, they have standing orders. Prabhupāda: Ah, we have also given. That is very nice. So every person, responsible person, he should learn this science and introduce, so that the opportunity a human being has got, that must be utilized. George Gullen: I'm sure there are many interpretations of what you say. I have an interest in these matters, and I want to know more about yours, very much so. I will see that I get your literature and read it. *Prabhupāda: Your father was also interested. That means naturally you have got some instinct from father, hereditary instinct. That is natural. So we want that . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā there is a verse. (aside) Find out: Hari-śauri: 3.21. "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues." Prabhupāda: Purport? *Hari-śauri: Purport: "People in general always require a leader who can teach the public by practical behavior. A leader cannot teach the public to stop smoking if he himself smokes. Lord Caitanya said that a teacher should behave properly even before he begins teaching. One who teaches in that way is called ācārya , or the ideal teacher. Therefore, a teacher must follow the principles of śāstra , scripture, to reach the common man. The teacher cannot manufacture rules against the principles of revealed scriptures. The revealed scriptures, like Manu*-saṁhitā and others, are considered the standard books to be followed by human society. Thus the leader's teaching should be based on the principles of the standard rules as they are practiced by the great teachers. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also affirms that one should follow in the footsteps of great devotees, and this is the way of progress on the path of spiritual realization. The king or the executive head of a state, the father and the schoolteacher are all considered to be natural leaders of the innocent people in general. All such natural leaders have a great responsibility to their dependents; therefore they must be conversant with standard books of moral and spiritual codes." George Gullen: Very good, very good. I believe all that. Every word. The people need leadership, inspiration, that they can follow with their whole heart. They cannot follow . . . *Prabhupāda: There must be practice. That we are teaching. That simply not theoretical, but practical. Here in our institute, we teach all the students practically how to become God conscious. Theoretical knowledge will not help us. There must be practical behavior. They are rising early in the morning, attending maṅgala-ārati , then having class, Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , chanting. In this way, twenty-four hours engaged. It is not fifteen minutes' recreation. No. Twenty-four hours' program. George Gullen: I think this is good for the world. I think the world needs it, very much so. Prabhupāda: So we are trying, although we are not supported by any government, we are trying in our own way. Own way . . . the way is standard, but unfortunately people have lost interest in these things. Animal life. As soon as we forget our interest in spiritual life, then immediately we're animals. George Gullen: We're very much creatures of habit, and it's difficult for us to give up our habits. *Prabhupāda: Habit can be changed. Habit can be changed by practice. Just like we advise no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat*-eating. So all these Europeans, Americans, they were habituated to all these habits, but now they have stopped. It can be, by practice, bad habits can be changed. George Gullen: You appear to have a program of great discipline, and I think that discipline is necessary for people who want to feel and learn and understand. I'm an admirer of discipline of that kind. But it's hard for one to bring oneself to do that out of a world that's strange, a strange world—our world is strange—try to bring myself out of that to other things. But I'm pleased to have this opportunity to hear you and to think about it, talk about it. I'd like to read more about it. Prabhupāda: One priest has joined us. What is his name? Satsvarūpa: Eugene Stowsky. Prabhupāda: He's Ph.D. He has recently joined us. He likes this movement. George Gullen: I'm sure it satisfies a deep need. I'm sure that's true. *Prabhupāda: No, it is the need of the human society. There is no alternative. In the Vedic mantra it is said, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). One must accept this. Otherwise, his human life is spoiled. If you simply trained up to live like an animal, then it is a great harm to the human society. George Gullen: I think our educational program at our university is very important to people if it helps them think and understand and begin to feel. We don't educate the heart, and I think there's something wrong about that. I think that the heart needs an education. There's some feelings one has to understand and some responses. We're inadequate in this respect, I . . . Prabhupāda: No, the thing is . . . suppose a person, by his right, has to get so much money from his father's property. If somebody does not give him that money or somehow or other checks him to get the money, so that's a very heinous act. If he is actually inheritor of the father's property, he must get it. That is justice. Similarly, in the human form of life, one can get this education. If this education is lacking, that means we are envious; *we're not giving the opportunity of fulfilling the right. And without this education, there is chance of falling down. Just like tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Another body you have to accept. If you do not give proper education, then next body may be lower than human being. There are so many different types of bodies, 8,400,000. So according to our mentality, we get another body. Nature's law. Nobody can check it. This life I may be very satisfied that, "I have got this body. Let me enjoy without any responsibility and become an animal." That's not very good civilization. They do not believe in the next life. Big, big educated men, they have no brain even to understand that we are changing every moment the body, and they don't believe that body changes and the soul continues. Dhīras tatra na muhyati . (aside) Find out this verse. Hari-śauri: *"As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." George Gullen: These are difficult words to understand, but I appreciate them. Prabhupāda: Therefore dhīra . . . dhīras tatra. Dhīra means sober gentleman. Dhīra. Dhīra means gentleman. So if one does not understand this simple truth, he's not even a gentleman, what to speak of learned scholar. Dhīras tatra na muhyati . That means every gentleman must have this education. And what is the use? What is the meaning of dhīra ? Hari-śauri: Sober. Satsvarūpa: Learned. Prabhupāda: That is gentleman. So one who does not understand this philosophy of life is not fit to be addressed as gentleman. It is commonsense knowledge. George Gullen: My father used to speak of the Oversoul, that I think had some similarity to these words that we just read, that the soul that is above . . . *Prabhupāda: We call Supersoul, that is God. The idea is in Christianity also, "Holy Ghost" like that. Supersoul and the ordinary soul. We living entities, we are ordinary souls, and God in His all*-pervading feature, He is Supersoul. (aside) Find out this verse: kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: Kṣetra*-kṣetrajñayor jñānaṁ yat taj jñānaṁ yat anyatā. English? Hari-śauri: "O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its owner is called knowledge. That is My opinion." *Prabhupāda: First of all knowledge means kṣetra*-kṣetrajña. The body is the field of activity. You are acting, I am also acting, everyone is acting—according to the body. But the actor is called kṣetrajña . Just like a cultivator is tilling the land, his own, and the tiller is cultivator. Similarly, this body is an analogy of this field, and we are tilling. So Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am also one of the tillers." Just like the tenant and the landlord. In an apartment house, the tenant is occupier of a certain house, certain apartment, but the landlord is the owner of the whole house. So God says: "I am also kṣetrajña —but for all the building," everything that is there, all planets, all, everywhere. That is His all-pervasiveness. I am the proprietor of this body, owner of this body, but God is proprietor of all the bodies. In this way that is explained. (aside) Purport? Hari-śauri: Purport: "While discussing the subject of this body and the owner of the body, the soul and the Supersoul, we shall find three different topics of study—the Lord, the living entity and matter. In every field of activities, in every body, there are two souls—the individual soul and the Supersoul. Because the Supersoul is the plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says: 'I am also the knower, but I am not the individual owner of the body. I am the superknower. I am present in every body as the Paramātmā, or Supersoul.' " *"One who studies the subject matter of the field of activity and the knower of the field very minutely, in terms of this Bhagavad*-gītā , can attain to knowledge. The Lord says, 'I am the knower of the field of activities in every individual body.' The individual may be the knower of his own body, but he is not in knowledge of other bodies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is present as the Supersoul in all bodies, knows everything about all bodies. He knows all the different bodies of all the various species of life. A citizen may know everything about his patch of land, but the king knows not only his palace but all the properties possessed by the individual citizens. Similarly, one may be the proprietor of the body individually, but the Supreme Lord is the proprietor of all bodies. The king is the original proprietor of the kingdom, and the citizen is the secondary proprietor. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the supreme proprietor of all bodies." "The body consists of the senses. The Supreme Lord is Hṛṣīkeśa, which means controller of the senses. He is the original controller of the senses, just as the king is the original controller of all activities within the state, and the citizens are secondary controllers. The Lord also says: 'I am also the knower.' This means that He is the superknower; the individual soul knows only his particular body. In Vedic literature, it is also stated . . ." Prabhupāda: Just like pains and pleasure. You know your bodily pains and pleasure, I know my body. But I do not know your bodily pains, neither you know mine. But God knows everyone's pains and pleasures. That is the difference between God and individual soul. *Hari-śauri: "This body is called kṣetra , and within it dwells the owner of the body and the Supreme Lord, who knows both the body and the owner of the body. Therefore He is called the knower of all fields. The distinction between the field of activities, the owner of activities and the supreme owner of activities is described as follows. Perfect knowledge of the constitution of the body, the constitution of the individual soul and the constitution of the Supersoul is known in terms of Vedic literature as jñānam . That is the opinion of Kṛṣṇa. To understand both the soul and the Supersoul as one yet distinct is knowledge. One who does not understand the field of activity and the knower of activity is not in perfect knowledge. One has to understand the position of prakṛti , nature, and puruṣa , the enjoyer of the nature, and īśvara , the knower who dominates or controls nature and the individual soul. One should not confuse the three in their different capacities. One should not confuse the painter, the painting and the easel. This material world, which is the field of activities, is nature, and the enjoyer of nature is the living entity, and above them both is the supreme controller, the Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the Vedic language: bhoktā bhogyaṁ preritāraṁ ca matvā / sarvaṁ proktaṁ tri*-vidhaṁ brahmam etat (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 1.12). There are three Brahman conceptions: prakṛti is Brahman as the field of activities, and the jīva (individual soul) is also Brahman and is trying to control the material nature, and the controller of both of them is also Brahman, but He is the factual controller." "In this chapter it will be also explained that out of the two knowers, one is fallible and the other is infallible. One is superior and the other is subordinate. One who understands the two knowers of the field to be one and the same contradicts the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who states here very clearly that 'I am also the knower of the field of activity.' One who misunderstands a rope to be a serpent is not in knowledge. There are different kinds of bodies, and there are different owners of the bodies. Because each individual soul has his individual capacity of lording it over material nature, there are different bodies. But the Supreme also is present in them as the controller. The word ca is significant, for it indicates the total number of bodies. That is the opinion of Śrīla Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa: Kṛṣṇa is the Supersoul present in each and every body apart from the individual soul. And Kṛṣṇa explicitly says here that the Supersoul is the controller of both the field of activities and the finite enjoyer." George Gullen: Thank you for reading this to me. I'm afraid I must be discourteous and leave you at the moment. I am speaking at a dinner meeting for my university. Prabhupāda: All right. George Gullen: I was delighted with Miss Reuther's call, for the chance to come and for this opportunity to listen to you, and I'm very grateful to her for calling. Prabhupāda: Give him some prasādam . Lekhaśravantī: Here's some prasādam . George Gullen: Oh, thank you very much. (end) (several devotees conversing about doctors and hepatitis) (Prabhupāda enters, offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: You can make little chewra . Pālikā: Same way Hari-śauri is making? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Pālikā: Same. Turn it off? Or on? Hari-śauri: It's on now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's on. Prabhupāda: On. Hari-śauri: That priest was very responsive. It's very nice. Prabhupāda: He wanted to become student. Hari-śauri: (laughs) He was becoming very enthusiastic. He was very enlivened. Anyone with a little intelligence, as soon as you begin to speak to them, they, immediately, they become so much enlivened. He's obviously . . . he's had some idea about organization and whatever, but he's never seen it practiced. And now he's come here and seen it practical. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is practical training. That is wanted. Simply theoretical knowledge . . . that is helpful, but training, that is the greatest need, that we have to create a set of first*-class men. Then the world will be all right. That is an attempt of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to make first class, ideal. Why they'll be attracted? They are seeing that "The priests are doing the same thing as we are doing." So how they will be attracted? Therefore Christianity is failing. They are also having the meat, illicit sex, drunkard—and they're priest. Hari-śauri: They've watered down so much, there's no value left to what they're doing. They're exactly the same as a man in the street, except he says he believes in God and the man on the street says he doesn't believe. And they have no ability to convince a man that God exists. They have no scientific knowledge or whatever. Prabhupāda: Simply by the position—"I am Cardinal," "I am Pope," "I am priest," "I am that." How long it will go on? Hari-śauri: It's not going on very much longer anyway, there's so many . . . it's falling apart. There's so many branches. Just the fact that there's so many divisions now of Christianity, that this man was speaking about this charismatic movement. Now this is the young people. They're feeling a need for God, so they're trying to express it through another concocted form of Christianity. But that will also be a failure. Prabhupāda: Let us try honestly, that's all. Hari-śauri: As long as we can preach very purely, then the effect will be there. Prabhupāda: So by this time, we shall be in Toronto tomorrow. Hari-śauri: Yes. Three quarter . . . 5:45 the plane leaves. So we'll be there by 6:00, 6:40, something like that. They don't have a garden there, though. Prabhupāda: Time difference the same? No time difference? Hari-śauri: I don't think so. Oh, we'll have to go through Customs though. It's Canada, so we have to travel through Customs, what have you. Prabhupāda: We require passport? Visa? You've got? Hari-śauri: I think so. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja already has it sorted out. My U.S. visa allows me to travel outside the country and come back in unlimited amount of times. I don't . . . (laughs) In Toronto also, one boy there was telling us that the priest that was selling that church, he said that he would rather burn it down than sell it to us. But because this Indian man bought it for us, then we were able to get it. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. It was sold to somebody else. But because it is an old church, the government municipality would not allow to break it. Then the man who purchased, he was obliged to sell to us. Hari-śauri: That's an exact duplicate of the situation that happened in Melbourne. That place was sold to a property developer, and then the National Trust put a classification on it, so he was not able to break it down, and neither could he utilize the extra space in the yard for building flats, because the Council would not allow him. So then we . . . they wouldn't . . . originally they would not sell to us. Prabhupāda: Same thing here. Nobody would purchase it on account of this black quarter. Nobody was purchasing, ready to purchase. Hari-śauri: So Kṛṣṇa is saving some very nice places for us. Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's trick. (chuckles) Everyone talks of this, "We Eastern, we believe in this," and "We Western, we believe in this." You remain peaceful, everyone. Everyone is thinking like this. We have no such thing, Eastern, Western. It is fact. For everyone, it is good. Eastern, Western, we don't take. Several times, this question . . . I talk . . . I spoke in the American Embassy in Calcutta. They gave me the subject matter, "East and West." So I, in the beginning, I began to speak that we have no such dual, East and West. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Needs a higher consciousness. Prabhupāda: If she can make samosā . . . Hari-śauri: With the chewra . Prabhupāda: No, chewra may be avoided. Samosā . One will be enough. Hari-śauri: Either chewra or samosā , or both? Prabhupāda: No. Either of them. Hari-śauri: One or the other. Prabhupāda: Yes. But I shall prefer samosā . Hari-śauri: Oh, I'd better go down before she starts, then. (end) (several devotees conversing about doctors and hepatitis) (Prabhupāda enters, offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: You can make little chewra . Pālikā: Same way Hari-śauri is making? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Pālikā: Same. Turn it off? Or on? Hari-śauri: It's on now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's on. Prabhupāda: On. Hari-śauri: That priest was very responsive. It's very nice. Prabhupāda: He wanted to become student. Hari-śauri: (laughs) He was becoming very enthusiastic. He was very enlivened. Anyone with a little intelligence, as soon as you begin to speak to them, they, immediately, they become so much enlivened. He's obviously . . . he's had some idea about organization and whatever, but he's never seen it practiced. And now he's come here and seen it practical. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is practical training. That is wanted. Simply theoretical knowledge . . . that is helpful, but training, that is the greatest need, that we have to create a set of first*-class men. Then the world will be all right. That is an attempt of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to make first class, ideal. Why they'll be attracted? They are seeing that "The priests are doing the same thing as we are doing." So how they will be attracted? Therefore Christianity is failing. They are also having the meat, illicit sex, drunkard—and they're priest. Hari-śauri: They've watered down so much, there's no value left to what they're doing. They're exactly the same as a man in the street, except he says he believes in God and the man on the street says he doesn't believe. And they have no ability to convince a man that God exists. They have no scientific knowledge or whatever. Prabhupāda: Simply by the position—"I am Cardinal," "I am Pope," "I am priest," "I am that." How long it will go on? Hari-śauri: It's not going on very much longer anyway, there's so many . . . it's falling apart. There's so many branches. Just the fact that there's so many divisions now of Christianity, that this man was speaking about this charismatic movement. Now this is the young people. They're feeling a need for God, so they're trying to express it through another concocted form of Christianity. But that will also be a failure. Prabhupāda: Let us try honestly, that's all. Hari-śauri: As long as we can preach very purely, then the effect will be there. Prabhupāda: So by this time, we shall be in Toronto tomorrow. Hari-śauri: Yes. Three quarter . . . 5:45 the plane leaves. So we'll be there by 6:00, 6:40, something like that. They don't have a garden there, though. Prabhupāda: Time difference the same? No time difference? Hari-śauri: I don't think so. Oh, we'll have to go through Customs though. It's Canada, so we have to travel through Customs, what have you. Prabhupāda: We require passport? Visa? You've got? Hari-śauri: I think so. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja already has it sorted out. My U.S. visa allows me to travel outside the country and come back in unlimited amount of times. I don't . . . (laughs) In Toronto also, one boy there was telling us that the priest that was selling that church, he said that he would rather burn it down than sell it to us. But because this Indian man bought it for us, then we were able to get it. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. It was sold to somebody else. But because it is an old church, the government municipality would not allow to break it. Then the man who purchased, he was obliged to sell to us. Hari-śauri: That's an exact duplicate of the situation that happened in Melbourne. That place was sold to a property developer, and then the National Trust put a classification on it, so he was not able to break it down, and neither could he utilize the extra space in the yard for building flats, because the Council would not allow him. So then we . . . they wouldn't . . . originally they would not sell to us. Prabhupāda: Same thing here. Nobody would purchase it on account of this black quarter. Nobody was purchasing, ready to purchase. Hari-śauri: So Kṛṣṇa is saving some very nice places for us. Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's trick. (chuckles) Everyone talks of this, "We Eastern, we believe in this," and "We Western, we believe in this." You remain peaceful, everyone. Everyone is thinking like this. We have no such thing, Eastern, Western. It is fact. For everyone, it is good. Eastern, Western, we don't take. Several times, this question . . . I talk . . . I spoke in the American Embassy in Calcutta. They gave me the subject matter, "East and West." So I, in the beginning, I began to speak that we have no such dual, East and West. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Needs a higher consciousness. Prabhupāda: If she can make samosā . . . Hari-śauri: With the chewra . Prabhupāda: No, chewra may be avoided. Samosā . One will be enough. Hari-śauri: Either chewra or samosā , or both? Prabhupāda: No. Either of them. Hari-śauri: One or the other. Prabhupāda: Yes. But I shall prefer samosā . Hari-śauri: Oh, I'd better go down before she starts, then. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . except London. Haṁsadūta, when he was GBC . . . he's still GBC? Jagadīśa: Haṁsadūta? Prabhupāda: That part? No. Jagadīśa: No, Jayatīrtha is. Prabhupāda: So there was some complaint against him. Jagadīśa: Against Mādhavānanda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. The complaint is that he spent money on his own account lavishly. Jagadīśa: Hmm. I don't know about that. Prabhupāda: Some of the Life Members complained. I received several complaints. The other day I asked: "You collected some money for constructing temple, so where is that money?" So he gave explanation. So thirty . . . fifteen thousand pounds were collected by him. Jagadīśa: From Ambarīṣa? Hari-śauri: No, this was in England. Jagadīśa: Oh, in England. Oh. Prabhupāda: But there is only balance two thousand five hundred. Hari-śauri: Yes, just two or three thousand that's left. Prabhupāda: All the money, he said, spent. Now they are asking for loan for purchasing one house. This money was collected for temple construction. We were awaiting opportunity. In the meantime, money spent. Jagadīśa: Have there been any complaints from Detroit? Have there been any similar complaints from Detroit? Prabhupāda: In Detroit I have received complaint that . . . many . . . Govardhana was popular president. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Popular. Everyone liked him. Jagadīśa: Yes, very gentle soul. Prabhupāda: Ah. So this is complaint I received. Jagadīśa: They don't like Mādhavānanda? Prabhupāda: Some of them say. Hari-śauri: He's forceful. He's quite a forceful person. Prabhupāda: What is this forceful? Hari-śauri: Well, if someone is very active, then it's only natural that some people will not be very keen on him, because he likes to get things done. Those that are a little slow, sometimes they complain. Maybe just that he's only been there a month or so. He's only been there not too long, so it's natural that it will take some time for the devotees to adapt to doing the things according to his direction rather than the way that they've been used to doing it. There's always some transition. Prabhupāda: You can know more about him from Haṁsadūta. As well Bhagavān. Jagadīśa: Bhagavān recommended him. He had been in Paris before coming to America. But his complaint was that he didn't speak French, so he didn't like to stay in France. Then he came to America, and he was distributing books with Tripurāri Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Oh, he is very intelligent, there is no doubt, intelligent. And for preaching work he is good. But for becoming the manager in London, there were . . . what is that boy in Bombay? Hari-śauri: Oh, Prabhaviṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Prabhaviṣṇu. So, who would become president, there was war. (laughter) Haṁsadūta wanted Prabhaviṣṇu, and Mādhavānanda wanted that he would become president. In this way there was great faction. So the management was being done nicely. He was attracting Indians, faithful—they were following. But there were several complaints that he spent very lavishly on his personal account. Purchasing sārī . . . Jagadīśa: What do you think we should do, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? No, I do not wish to interfere. You manage now. I want to see that you are managing without my interference. Now practically I want to concentrate more, or absolutely I want to do that. But sometimes this mismanagement gives me too much anxiety. I do not wish to see that somehow or other we have built up a nice institution, on account of lack of management it may be hampered. That is my only anxiety. Now what is the position of the gurukula in Texas? Our gurukula , I have repeatedly said that we want simply to know English nicely—English is international language—and Sanskrit just to read and understand our literature. But we don't find any progress in that way. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you say that we don't find any progress, do you mean just on account of Pradyumna's testimony? Or do you see beyond that, also, that there's no progress. Prabhupāda: No. Pradyumna, of course, personally saw. But when I was in Dallas I could not find any good progress. Jagadīśa: How do you judge that progress? Prabhupāda: The chanting of the Sanskrit verses. Not all of them could do it very nicely. It is only practice, and . . . apart from Pradyumna. So his complaint is that he cannot write even 1, 2, 3, 4, up to ten. Jagadīśa: I know we have some good people. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jagadīśa: We have some good, qualified people, and I'm organizing . . . Prabhupāda: I saw some machine purchased, some, for publishing, some . . . Jagadīśa: Printing machine. Prabhupāda: Printing. Why this is going on? Jagadīśa: Those were purchased before I got involved. Prabhupāda: Just see. That means money was spent unnecessarily, without any tangible result. So Dayānanda left. He was there . . . without any consultation, he left. So what to do with all these things? Jagadīśa: I think I have it under control. I have plans . . . *Prabhupāda: You see these two things especially, that they . . . English is their mother tongue, mother language. They can easily become English scholar very easily. And Sanskrit language is no difficulty. Read and write, read and write, then he will learn. Our education in Sanskrit was in college. Of course, I was the best student in my class of Sanskrit. I was standing first. But we are not like the so*-called Sanskrit scholars. But for our purpose we can read and write, that's all. Similarly, we don't want any very learned scholars, Sanskrit grammarian, to manufacture jugglery of words, meanings. No, we don't want that. Simply we can conduct our business, that's all. Just like Marwaris, they, their education is up to their business understanding, that's all. They don't want to be scholars or technologists. You won't find in big, big Marwari families they have become a doctor, engineer or technologist. No. But in business dealings they are first class. (laughs) That they train. I had one Marwari friend in Calcutta. He was a very rich businessman and has got several mills. So sometimes I went to his house. I saw that he had engaged a Sanskrit paṇḍita and an English teacher, that's all. So I asked him, "You don't send your children to school?" "No, no, no, no. I . . . if we require some technologist, we can purchase. You pay some money, so many technologists you will get, M.A., Ph.D., D.H.C., C.H.C. 'All right, take payment and do business.' " They employ very, very, very large salary. But on the head, management, their own sons, grandsons. Jagadīśa: You've explained this to me a number of times, and I think I'm beginning to understand. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge is spiritual knowledge. Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Now, of course, social condition have changed. There are so many factories, and they require technical knowledge. But we are not going to the factories. That is sure and certain. Neither we are going to start any factory. That is not our business. Our factory at most, cut-cut, hut-hut , that's all. We don't want to start . . . (indistinct) . . . factory or Ford factory and make a hell out of life, the hell. Hari-śauri: I used to work in a steelworks. It's worse than hell. Prabhupāda: It is more than hell. There is no life. I have been in Tata steel, iron factory. Oh, I saw it is a hell. One melting pot just like a skyscraper building. You have seen? Hari-śauri: I used to work on them, same thing. I was working where they pour the metal into ingots, into casings, and then when it solidifies they take a chunk of iron out, it's still white hot, and then they put it in ovens. And then after a while, when they need them, they take them out with big cranes and they put them on a series of rollers, and then it goes through a mill, what they call a mill. It's like a big mangling machine, and it crushes the steel ingot into plates, big plates. Then it goes along and it's cut and sent out. It cools down on big banks and it's sent out. So my job was . . . I was doing maintenance fitting on all those machines—on the rollers and on the cranes and on the big mills, like that. It was terrible. We used to work from two o'clock in the afternoon until ten o'clock at night, one shift, then from ten until six, and then from six until two. Prabhupāda: Eight hours. Without any recreation? Hari-śauri: Well, one break, one break, for lunch. It was just indescribable. There's so much heat and fumes, and always covered in oil and grease, crawling around on your hands and knees to fix some machine, or . . . Jagadīśa: All for the advantage of some wealthy man. Prabhupāda: And after this hard labor, his only recreation is wine. Did you drink? Hari-śauri: (laughs) Yes, we used to go straight from the steelworks to the pub, public house. Jagadīśa: I also worked in a factory for a while. Same thing. And people were always getting hurt. Prabhupāda: You are not meant for that. (laughs) Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: I thought you joined from college? Jagadīśa: Yes, but during the summer I had a job in a factory. Prabhupāda: Oh, to get some money. Jagadīśa: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: This girl Elizabeth paid so much money, it is due to Govardhana. Jagadīśa: Due to . . .? Prabhupāda: Govardhana. Jagadīśa: Yes, Ambarīṣa also. Ambarīṣa also has given money due to Govardhana. He's a very gentle soul. Prabhupāda: His behavior is well enough. His background is good service. Therefore I'm asking why he should be changed. Hari-śauri: But if he's not very fixed up, then . . . Prabhupāda: That can be . . . Jagadīśa: One thing, if I had not been tied up in Dallas with gurukula , I could have spent more time in Detroit, and I think that would have helped the situation. Because he was alone, working alone . . . Prabhupāda: Now one thing is that he has given service for the benefit of the Society. Very tangible service. He can be in charge of book distribution. Jagadīśa: Mādhavānanda. *Hari-śauri: Yes, that would be good, if they were co*-managers or something like that. Jagadīśa: Govardhana president? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? You should recognize his service. Hari-śauri: Otherwise he may be dis . . . Prabhupāda: He induced persons to do some . . . that you cannot neglect. (break) Paper men coming? Hari-śauri: Yes, Jayādvaita's going to talk to them a little first, give them prasāda , just explain the basics of the movement so that they, you know, they may be a little favorable. Prabhupāda: . . . they'll understand Hari-śauri: Otherwise, if they just come and go . . . Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to understand that our movement is spiritual movement, and they do not understand what is spiritual, the whole world. That is the defect. But still we are going on. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise, (chuckling) nobody understands what is the aim or what is the platform. (children outside yell "Hare Kṛṣṇa") (laughter) Hari-śauri: It's amazing when you think how we're expanding all the time. It's really amazing. Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Therefore they take us as one of these Gurujī and Bābājī, like this, like that. But when they read our books, higher class, they understand the seriousness of it. They admit that this is India's original, traditional knowledge. Higher, higher circle, they don't want any imitation. Hari-śauri: No. Someone with a little intelligence, he's not befooled by . . . Prabhupāda: No. During British period, high British officers, big, big managers, they liked Indians with original culture. They did not like any Indian with European imitation—pants, coats. They did not like these imitations. My Godbrother, that German, Sadānanda . . . you have heard his name or you have seen him? Jagadīśa: No. Prabhupāda: When he came to India, he was my intimate friend. So he was telling me that, "In our country, when some Indian student comes, especially while returning home after their education, they stop for some time in Germany. We used to inquire from him how much he is aware of his Indian original culture." Because they have got very good respect. All over the world they have got. Even Russia, they have got good respect for Indian culture. They have liked our books only on account of the . . . because the Sanskrit verses are there. They took it, "Oh, it is original." Scholarly people like our book on that account, that we explain original Sanskrit verse. That they have got very good regard, that there is knowledge. They're impressed. And Britishers made propaganda only that India had no culture, almost uncivilized: they push women forcibly in the fire after the death of her husband, and in the temple, the priests, they make all nonsense with women, and so on. This was their . . . just to prove that, "India was uncivilized, and we are making them civilized. By our compassion for the uncivilized persons, we are occupying." Hari-śauri: (laughs) They used to call that the "White man's burden." Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So these English people, they were very expert in making propaganda. They killed Hitler by propaganda. I don't think Hitler was so bad man. What do you think? (laughs) You are Englishman. (laughter) Hari-śauri: I can . . . (laughs) Just from hearing you speak in the last few months I can understand that the whole history that I was ever presented in school is completely warped around to the way that the English saw it, especially the last two centuries, when the British Empire was on the move. It's completely . . . Prabhupāda: But actually, the war was between Germany and England. Others joined, some interest or something. Actually, the war was to be fought between England and Germany. Jagadīśa: There's one devotee who joined in Toronto, Frenchman, and he was in France at the time of the war. He's an older man. And he told me also . . . his father was French, but he was sympathetic to the Nazis, and that it was actually Maxmillian or one of the Frenchmen who sided with the British, but the majority of the French people didn't mind the German occupation. It was due to one of the political factions siding with the British that there was a French underground and . . . Prabhupāda: France, they are always enemy of Englishmen. There is is old history—Hundred Years War, Seven Years War. Napoleon also wanted to cut down the Britishers. France is dead enemy of England, and there is always competition. Hari-śauri: Even just with de Gaulle also. Prabhupāda: France is not friendly to India, uh, England. Hari-śauri: England has always been inimical with the rest of Europe—with Germany, France, Spain, everyone. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they thought, "This is a third*-class nation, a small island, fishermen, and they have . . . (indistinct) . . .?" That is natural. (laughs) Whole world. In our childhood, we used to see map, almost whole world red—red means British. (laughter) They said that there was no sunset in the British Empire. Jagadīśa: This Frenchman also says that he . . . Prabhupāda: German people still hate England. They do not like to speak in English; *that I have seen. In the bank they know English, but they won't speak it. (laughs) English everyone knows. That Kaiser was against. They said that Kaiser is the grandson of Queen Victoria, from daughter's side. And King George from the son's side—Edward's seventh's son. They were cousin*-brothers. So this Kaiser, when he was young boy, went to paternal uncle's house, when he was a young boy. So there was some playing, cut with a knife. So royal family, so many doctors came. So the boy was saying: "Why you are trying to cure it? Let the English blood go away." (laughs) So from the childhood he was so inimical that, "I have got some English blood in my body—my mother is English, father German—so let the English blood go away." I do not know if that is fact; I heard it. (laughs) Maybe. It is joking also and serious. *In our childhood, in the school, a book was there, England's Work in India . One Mr. M. Ghosh, he wrote this book just to flatter the Englishmen. This, that "White man's burden." And it was the impression in those days: just to become like Englishmen, that is civilization. The Parsis in Bombay, they were the first*-class flatterer, imitation, how to become like English lords, barons. This Tata factory was started by such ambition. They wanted to be English baron, lord, industrialist. In Calcutta also. Where our temple is, that is called sāhīb quarter. In our childhood we used to say sāhīb quarter. Sāhīb quarter means European neighborhood. They say our temple is sāhīb mandira in Māyāpur. And in Vṛndāvana, aṇgrejī mandira . The same impression. To become sāhīb , that was great prestigious. Yes. (laughs) Hari-śauri: They actually had no resources whatsoever, the British. They had no resources whatsoever. *Prabhupāda: That was the mission of Hitler that, "These people are shopkeepers' nation, fisherman's nation. How they have become so big? This must be finished." Because their business was being hampered by the Britishers. In India we have seen. German and Japan, very cheap and first*-class goods they will supply. The Britishers would not allow. Hari-śauri: Yes, at that time, anything that was made in England automatically was considered first class. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, any rascal thing. They made a good market. And British Empire means to sell their goods. And they, for that purpose, they became rich. Money was drawn from all parts, especially from India. Everything. Later on, gradually we came to understand. In Lucknow, because I was in medical business, so I saw one Japanese salesman was selling one medicine, one or two items, potassiodide. Do you know? No. Potassium iodide. And another, iodine. He was selling at four rupees, eight annas a pound. But we were accustomed to purchase English potassiodide and iodine, thirteen rupees a pound. That Howard's. Very famous, Howard's Chemicals, like that. They were selling. So I doubted that "How so much cheap this Japanese firm can supply?" And they used to advertise that all these Japanese goods are third class. Hari-śauri: There was big propaganda. Prabhupāda: Yes, "German goods are second class. Our goods, first class." So I inquired from the salesman, "How is it that you are supplying so cheap?" "They're supplying . . . the price is the real price." "Now, why they charge more?" "They purchase from us and pack and sell." There are many big chemical concerns in Germany. Germans are very good manufacturers, especially of chemicals, iron, machine. Still you find, all this Uher and, what is called, Gundsag? Hari-śauri: Grundig. *Prabhupāda: They're all German. All first*-class machine you'll find. This Mercedes motorcar, they're all German. They don't manufacture third-class thing. Everything they manufacture first class. Still, the Germans suffered so much, but when I was in Germany I saw they are very prosperous. (pause) Hari-śauri: Now we have to get them interested in your books. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Germans. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: I don't think we have any reviews from any big German scholars yet. Prabhupāda: But if they have ordered for their textbook, that order will be . . . Hari-śauri: East Germany, yes. Prabhupāda: Their order itself will be a testimony, if they order in their own form, "Supply this." Max Mueller was German. So long we are in this material world, this competition, animosity . . . even in the higher planetary system, there is no peaceful condition. (pause) Jagadīśa: You're feeling headache? (Prabhupāda has very bad toothache) Prabhupāda: No, there is some pain. My teeth are now useless. So it is all rotten now. Sometimes it becomes acute. There is no strength in the teeth. Some of them, fifty percent, have already fallen, therefore I cannot eat. Jagadīśa: I think that a very nutritious diet can be made just from liquids. Prabhupāda: Liquids, yes. Milk is the best food. Children, when there is no teeth, milk is the food. In Western country also, I think old men, they take milk and puffed rice. Is it? Hari-śauri: Yes. Soft foods, anyway. Prabhupāda: In India, especially in Bengal, there is a preparation, it is softer than the puffed rice— khai , fused rice. That is very good. Light, at the same time soft purgative. That milk mixed with is a very good food for old men. Hari-śauri: In that newspaper article in the Butler Eagle , that very first article when you just arrived that we saw? They showed that copy in Los Angeles. It mentioned, the reporter there, he quoted you as saying that—you were telling him about milk, how good it was—and he quoted you as saying that milk is the miracle food for babies and old men. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. No, it may be there are so many other food, but cent percent of the human society, everyone has some way or other taken milk. So morally, cow is our mother. How these mothers are being killed? That is the question. Where is morality? Where is . . .? And they are drawing last drop of the milk. And there is necessity of milk. "After taking whatever money you have got . . . take, and I shall kill you." What is this? Horrible society. If I take from you whatever you have got in your pocket and then I kill you, what is this society? Jagadīśa: The only thing that stops them from killing each other is that there are certain laws. Otherwise, I'm sure that the human beings are so barbaric that they would kill each other. Hari-śauri: Actually, they are making adjustments to the law so that they can do that. *Prabhupāda: Yes, in India, in Vṛndāvana, they are killing now for a little money. They are so poverty*-stricken. They have got a clique. Because in Vṛndāvana there are many retired men; they get some money from bank or some saving bank in post office. And they have got clique with this post office man and the bank clerk who has taken money. Bon Mahārāja was attacked. He brought some one lakh rupees, one and a half lakh rupees for some . . . he was recognized by the . . . so as soon, at night—he was living in the Institute—attacked, in the presence of police. Police was guarding that others may not come to help. Hari-śauri: The police were helping the thieves? Prabhupāda: Yes. I think the magistrate even was complicated. And when it was complained, the magistrate said: "Better not to take it seriously; it will be your . . . I'll give you some guard." That's all. Hari-śauri: They'll do anything for money. *Prabhupāda: Now, in the Kali*-yuga, things will degrade so low that if I see I have no money and if you have got some few cents with you, I shall kill you and take it. That day will come. Very dangerous condition is coming forward. Yes, if things go on like this . . . just like we saw in Detroit, the whole city is dangerously situated. Therefore nobody purchased that house. Jagadīśa: Eighty percent of the people in the city are black. Prabhupāda: And the white men, they are very much afraid of these black men. They have to be afraid. Jagadīśa: They've taken over the city. *Prabhupāda: Without them, the factories cannot go on. That's all. The white men cannot work so hard. How they . . .? No gentleman can do that. This kind of work is meant for the fourth*-class, fifth-class men. Therefore they cannot say anything. They require. And they know that their money will be taken away again by supplying them wine. They'll pay, and next moment, the wine merchant will take away. And the government will get huge profit without doing anything. And excise tax. Excise tax, government hasn't got to invest or do anything—simply take the tax. Hari-śauri: Every time they put a tax increase, it's always on beer and cigarettes. Always, every time. And motorcars. Because they know the people are so much addicted that even if they squeeze and squeeze and squeeze, they will still get more, and the people will still pay. Prabhupāda: And addicted people, they, they're after the . . . get money some way or other, beg, borrow or steal. So these black men especially, they are expert. They are not expert in begging, but borrowing and stealing. Jagadīśa: Is it possible, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will, in the future, turn the tide and gain predominating influence? Change . . . Prabhupāda: Thing is that if the leaders of the society, they come to their consciousness, that this way the society cannot be peaceful, the way they are now conducting . . . if they have brain . . . just like the other day, the Christian priest, he was speaking of disabled men. You were present? "I challenge you, what do you mean by disabled man? If one man has lost his arm, can you supply it?" Then he stopped. Hari-śauri: He was finished when you told him it was all imaginary. Prabhupāda: Yes, actually. What you can do? Jagadīśa: Other than yourself, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no one in the world has a vision how to save the world. Prabhupāda: Because I honestly think of it. Maybe others are also honest, but they do not know the right way. How they can be honest? Just like this Communist movement, now they are favoring the labor class and rejecting the capitalist class altogether. They cannot make any adjustment. Jagadīśa: I've understood that communism is presented by the administrative class when there is a condition of scarcity. When there is opulence, then there is room for personal, individual enterprise, but when there is scarcity, that cannot be encouraged, and the common people have to be subjugated. So capitalism and communism are both simply philosophies how to keep the common man satisfied. So it's simply another means of exploitation. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is exploitation, and actually they have done it. Hari-śauri: There is still one class of men living at the expense of another, whether it's Communist or capitalist . . . (end) Prabhupāda: . . . except London. Haṁsadūta, when he was GBC . . . he's still GBC? Jagadīśa: Haṁsadūta? Prabhupāda: That part? No. Jagadīśa: No, Jayatīrtha is. Prabhupāda: So there was some complaint against him. Jagadīśa: Against Mādhavānanda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. The complaint is that he spent money on his own account lavishly. Jagadīśa: Hmm. I don't know about that. Prabhupāda: Some of the Life Members complained. I received several complaints. The other day I asked: "You collected some money for constructing temple, so where is that money?" So he gave explanation. So thirty . . . fifteen thousand pounds were collected by him. Jagadīśa: From Ambarīṣa? Hari-śauri: No, this was in England. Jagadīśa: Oh, in England. Oh. Prabhupāda: But there is only balance two thousand five hundred. Hari-śauri: Yes, just two or three thousand that's left. Prabhupāda: All the money, he said, spent. Now they are asking for loan for purchasing one house. This money was collected for temple construction. We were awaiting opportunity. In the meantime, money spent. Jagadīśa: Have there been any complaints from Detroit? Have there been any similar complaints from Detroit? Prabhupāda: In Detroit I have received complaint that . . . many . . . Govardhana was popular president. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Popular. Everyone liked him. Jagadīśa: Yes, very gentle soul. Prabhupāda: Ah. So this is complaint I received. Jagadīśa: They don't like Mādhavānanda? Prabhupāda: Some of them say. Hari-śauri: He's forceful. He's quite a forceful person. Prabhupāda: What is this forceful? Hari-śauri: Well, if someone is very active, then it's only natural that some people will not be very keen on him, because he likes to get things done. Those that are a little slow, sometimes they complain. Maybe just that he's only been there a month or so. He's only been there not too long, so it's natural that it will take some time for the devotees to adapt to doing the things according to his direction rather than the way that they've been used to doing it. There's always some transition. Prabhupāda: You can know more about him from Haṁsadūta. As well Bhagavān. Jagadīśa: Bhagavān recommended him. He had been in Paris before coming to America. But his complaint was that he didn't speak French, so he didn't like to stay in France. Then he came to America, and he was distributing books with Tripurāri Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Oh, he is very intelligent, there is no doubt, intelligent. And for preaching work he is good. But for becoming the manager in London, there were . . . what is that boy in Bombay? Hari-śauri: Oh, Prabhaviṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Prabhaviṣṇu. So, who would become president, there was war. (laughter) Haṁsadūta wanted Prabhaviṣṇu, and Mādhavānanda wanted that he would become president. In this way there was great faction. So the management was being done nicely. He was attracting Indians, faithful—they were following. But there were several complaints that he spent very lavishly on his personal account. Purchasing sārī . . . Jagadīśa: What do you think we should do, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? No, I do not wish to interfere. You manage now. I want to see that you are managing without my interference. Now practically I want to concentrate more, or absolutely I want to do that. But sometimes this mismanagement gives me too much anxiety. I do not wish to see that somehow or other we have built up a nice institution, on account of lack of management it may be hampered. That is my only anxiety. Now what is the position of the gurukula in Texas? Our gurukula , I have repeatedly said that we want simply to know English nicely—English is international language—and Sanskrit just to read and understand our literature. But we don't find any progress in that way. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you say that we don't find any progress, do you mean just on account of Pradyumna's testimony? Or do you see beyond that, also, that there's no progress. Prabhupāda: No. Pradyumna, of course, personally saw. But when I was in Dallas I could not find any good progress. Jagadīśa: How do you judge that progress? Prabhupāda: The chanting of the Sanskrit verses. Not all of them could do it very nicely. It is only practice, and . . . apart from Pradyumna. So his complaint is that he cannot write even 1, 2, 3, 4, up to ten. Jagadīśa: I know we have some good people. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jagadīśa: We have some good, qualified people, and I'm organizing . . . Prabhupāda: I saw some machine purchased, some, for publishing, some . . . Jagadīśa: Printing machine. Prabhupāda: Printing. Why this is going on? Jagadīśa: Those were purchased before I got involved. Prabhupāda: Just see. That means money was spent unnecessarily, without any tangible result. So Dayānanda left. He was there . . . without any consultation, he left. So what to do with all these things? Jagadīśa: I think I have it under control. I have plans . . . *Prabhupāda: You see these two things especially, that they . . . English is their mother tongue, mother language. They can easily become English scholar very easily. And Sanskrit language is no difficulty. Read and write, read and write, then he will learn. Our education in Sanskrit was in college. Of course, I was the best student in my class of Sanskrit. I was standing first. But we are not like the so*-called Sanskrit scholars. But for our purpose we can read and write, that's all. Similarly, we don't want any very learned scholars, Sanskrit grammarian, to manufacture jugglery of words, meanings. No, we don't want that. Simply we can conduct our business, that's all. Just like Marwaris, they, their education is up to their business understanding, that's all. They don't want to be scholars or technologists. You won't find in big, big Marwari families they have become a doctor, engineer or technologist. No. But in business dealings they are first class. (laughs) That they train. I had one Marwari friend in Calcutta. He was a very rich businessman and has got several mills. So sometimes I went to his house. I saw that he had engaged a Sanskrit paṇḍita and an English teacher, that's all. So I asked him, "You don't send your children to school?" "No, no, no, no. I . . . if we require some technologist, we can purchase. You pay some money, so many technologists you will get, M.A., Ph.D., D.H.C., C.H.C. 'All right, take payment and do business.' " They employ very, very, very large salary. But on the head, management, their own sons, grandsons. Jagadīśa: You've explained this to me a number of times, and I think I'm beginning to understand. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge is spiritual knowledge. Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Now, of course, social condition have changed. There are so many factories, and they require technical knowledge. But we are not going to the factories. That is sure and certain. Neither we are going to start any factory. That is not our business. Our factory at most, cut-cut, hut-hut , that's all. We don't want to start . . . (indistinct) . . . factory or Ford factory and make a hell out of life, the hell. Hari-śauri: I used to work in a steelworks. It's worse than hell. Prabhupāda: It is more than hell. There is no life. I have been in Tata steel, iron factory. Oh, I saw it is a hell. One melting pot just like a skyscraper building. You have seen? Hari-śauri: I used to work on them, same thing. I was working where they pour the metal into ingots, into casings, and then when it solidifies they take a chunk of iron out, it's still white hot, and then they put it in ovens. And then after a while, when they need them, they take them out with big cranes and they put them on a series of rollers, and then it goes through a mill, what they call a mill. It's like a big mangling machine, and it crushes the steel ingot into plates, big plates. Then it goes along and it's cut and sent out. It cools down on big banks and it's sent out. So my job was . . . I was doing maintenance fitting on all those machines—on the rollers and on the cranes and on the big mills, like that. It was terrible. We used to work from two o'clock in the afternoon until ten o'clock at night, one shift, then from ten until six, and then from six until two. Prabhupāda: Eight hours. Without any recreation? Hari-śauri: Well, one break, one break, for lunch. It was just indescribable. There's so much heat and fumes, and always covered in oil and grease, crawling around on your hands and knees to fix some machine, or . . . Jagadīśa: All for the advantage of some wealthy man. Prabhupāda: And after this hard labor, his only recreation is wine. Did you drink? Hari-śauri: (laughs) Yes, we used to go straight from the steelworks to the pub, public house. Jagadīśa: I also worked in a factory for a while. Same thing. And people were always getting hurt. Prabhupāda: You are not meant for that. (laughs) Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: I thought you joined from college? Jagadīśa: Yes, but during the summer I had a job in a factory. Prabhupāda: Oh, to get some money. Jagadīśa: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: This girl Elizabeth paid so much money, it is due to Govardhana. Jagadīśa: Due to . . .? Prabhupāda: Govardhana. Jagadīśa: Yes, Ambarīṣa also. Ambarīṣa also has given money due to Govardhana. He's a very gentle soul. Prabhupāda: His behavior is well enough. His background is good service. Therefore I'm asking why he should be changed. Hari-śauri: But if he's not very fixed up, then . . . Prabhupāda: That can be . . . Jagadīśa: One thing, if I had not been tied up in Dallas with gurukula , I could have spent more time in Detroit, and I think that would have helped the situation. Because he was alone, working alone . . . Prabhupāda: Now one thing is that he has given service for the benefit of the Society. Very tangible service. He can be in charge of book distribution. Jagadīśa: Mādhavānanda. *Hari-śauri: Yes, that would be good, if they were co*-managers or something like that. Jagadīśa: Govardhana president? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? You should recognize his service. Hari-śauri: Otherwise he may be dis . . . Prabhupāda: He induced persons to do some . . . that you cannot neglect. (break) Paper men coming? Hari-śauri: Yes, Jayādvaita's going to talk to them a little first, give them prasāda , just explain the basics of the movement so that they, you know, they may be a little favorable. Prabhupāda: . . . they'll understand Hari-śauri: Otherwise, if they just come and go . . . Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to understand that our movement is spiritual movement, and they do not understand what is spiritual, the whole world. That is the defect. But still we are going on. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise, (chuckling) nobody understands what is the aim or what is the platform. (children outside yell "Hare Kṛṣṇa") (laughter) Hari-śauri: It's amazing when you think how we're expanding all the time. It's really amazing. Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Therefore they take us as one of these Gurujī and Bābājī, like this, like that. But when they read our books, higher class, they understand the seriousness of it. They admit that this is India's original, traditional knowledge. Higher, higher circle, they don't want any imitation. Hari-śauri: No. Someone with a little intelligence, he's not befooled by . . . Prabhupāda: No. During British period, high British officers, big, big managers, they liked Indians with original culture. They did not like any Indian with European imitation—pants, coats. They did not like these imitations. My Godbrother, that German, Sadānanda . . . you have heard his name or you have seen him? Jagadīśa: No. Prabhupāda: When he came to India, he was my intimate friend. So he was telling me that, "In our country, when some Indian student comes, especially while returning home after their education, they stop for some time in Germany. We used to inquire from him how much he is aware of his Indian original culture." Because they have got very good respect. All over the world they have got. Even Russia, they have got good respect for Indian culture. They have liked our books only on account of the . . . because the Sanskrit verses are there. They took it, "Oh, it is original." Scholarly people like our book on that account, that we explain original Sanskrit verse. That they have got very good regard, that there is knowledge. They're impressed. And Britishers made propaganda only that India had no culture, almost uncivilized: they push women forcibly in the fire after the death of her husband, and in the temple, the priests, they make all nonsense with women, and so on. This was their . . . just to prove that, "India was uncivilized, and we are making them civilized. By our compassion for the uncivilized persons, we are occupying." Hari-śauri: (laughs) They used to call that the "White man's burden." Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So these English people, they were very expert in making propaganda. They killed Hitler by propaganda. I don't think Hitler was so bad man. What do you think? (laughs) You are Englishman. (laughter) Hari-śauri: I can . . . (laughs) Just from hearing you speak in the last few months I can understand that the whole history that I was ever presented in school is completely warped around to the way that the English saw it, especially the last two centuries, when the British Empire was on the move. It's completely . . . Prabhupāda: But actually, the war was between Germany and England. Others joined, some interest or something. Actually, the war was to be fought between England and Germany. Jagadīśa: There's one devotee who joined in Toronto, Frenchman, and he was in France at the time of the war. He's an older man. And he told me also . . . his father was French, but he was sympathetic to the Nazis, and that it was actually Maxmillian or one of the Frenchmen who sided with the British, but the majority of the French people didn't mind the German occupation. It was due to one of the political factions siding with the British that there was a French underground and . . . Prabhupāda: France, they are always enemy of Englishmen. There is is old history—Hundred Years War, Seven Years War. Napoleon also wanted to cut down the Britishers. France is dead enemy of England, and there is always competition. Hari-śauri: Even just with de Gaulle also. Prabhupāda: France is not friendly to India, uh, England. Hari-śauri: England has always been inimical with the rest of Europe—with Germany, France, Spain, everyone. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they thought, "This is a third*-class nation, a small island, fishermen, and they have . . . (indistinct) . . .?" That is natural. (laughs) Whole world. In our childhood, we used to see map, almost whole world red—red means British. (laughter) They said that there was no sunset in the British Empire. Jagadīśa: This Frenchman also says that he . . . Prabhupāda: German people still hate England. They do not like to speak in English; *that I have seen. In the bank they know English, but they won't speak it. (laughs) English everyone knows. That Kaiser was against. They said that Kaiser is the grandson of Queen Victoria, from daughter's side. And King George from the son's side—Edward's seventh's son. They were cousin*-brothers. So this Kaiser, when he was young boy, went to paternal uncle's house, when he was a young boy. So there was some playing, cut with a knife. So royal family, so many doctors came. So the boy was saying: "Why you are trying to cure it? Let the English blood go away." (laughs) So from the childhood he was so inimical that, "I have got some English blood in my body—my mother is English, father German—so let the English blood go away." I do not know if that is fact; I heard it. (laughs) Maybe. It is joking also and serious. *In our childhood, in the school, a book was there, England's Work in India . One Mr. M. Ghosh, he wrote this book just to flatter the Englishmen. This, that "White man's burden." And it was the impression in those days: just to become like Englishmen, that is civilization. The Parsis in Bombay, they were the first*-class flatterer, imitation, how to become like English lords, barons. This Tata factory was started by such ambition. They wanted to be English baron, lord, industrialist. In Calcutta also. Where our temple is, that is called sāhīb quarter. In our childhood we used to say sāhīb quarter. Sāhīb quarter means European neighborhood. They say our temple is sāhīb mandira in Māyāpur. And in Vṛndāvana, aṇgrejī mandira . The same impression. To become sāhīb , that was great prestigious. Yes. (laughs) Hari-śauri: They actually had no resources whatsoever, the British. They had no resources whatsoever. *Prabhupāda: That was the mission of Hitler that, "These people are shopkeepers' nation, fisherman's nation. How they have become so big? This must be finished." Because their business was being hampered by the Britishers. In India we have seen. German and Japan, very cheap and first*-class goods they will supply. The Britishers would not allow. Hari-śauri: Yes, at that time, anything that was made in England automatically was considered first class. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, any rascal thing. They made a good market. And British Empire means to sell their goods. And they, for that purpose, they became rich. Money was drawn from all parts, especially from India. Everything. Later on, gradually we came to understand. In Lucknow, because I was in medical business, so I saw one Japanese salesman was selling one medicine, one or two items, potassiodide. Do you know? No. Potassium iodide. And another, iodine. He was selling at four rupees, eight annas a pound. But we were accustomed to purchase English potassiodide and iodine, thirteen rupees a pound. That Howard's. Very famous, Howard's Chemicals, like that. They were selling. So I doubted that "How so much cheap this Japanese firm can supply?" And they used to advertise that all these Japanese goods are third class. Hari-śauri: There was big propaganda. Prabhupāda: Yes, "German goods are second class. Our goods, first class." So I inquired from the salesman, "How is it that you are supplying so cheap?" "They're supplying . . . the price is the real price." "Now, why they charge more?" "They purchase from us and pack and sell." There are many big chemical concerns in Germany. Germans are very good manufacturers, especially of chemicals, iron, machine. Still you find, all this Uher and, what is called, Gundsag? Hari-śauri: Grundig. *Prabhupāda: They're all German. All first*-class machine you'll find. This Mercedes motorcar, they're all German. They don't manufacture third-class thing. Everything they manufacture first class. Still, the Germans suffered so much, but when I was in Germany I saw they are very prosperous. (pause) Hari-śauri: Now we have to get them interested in your books. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Germans. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: I don't think we have any reviews from any big German scholars yet. Prabhupāda: But if they have ordered for their textbook, that order will be . . . Hari-śauri: East Germany, yes. Prabhupāda: Their order itself will be a testimony, if they order in their own form, "Supply this." Max Mueller was German. So long we are in this material world, this competition, animosity . . . even in the higher planetary system, there is no peaceful condition. (pause) Jagadīśa: You're feeling headache? (Prabhupāda has very bad toothache) Prabhupāda: No, there is some pain. My teeth are now useless. So it is all rotten now. Sometimes it becomes acute. There is no strength in the teeth. Some of them, fifty percent, have already fallen, therefore I cannot eat. Jagadīśa: I think that a very nutritious diet can be made just from liquids. Prabhupāda: Liquids, yes. Milk is the best food. Children, when there is no teeth, milk is the food. In Western country also, I think old men, they take milk and puffed rice. Is it? Hari-śauri: Yes. Soft foods, anyway. Prabhupāda: In India, especially in Bengal, there is a preparation, it is softer than the puffed rice— khai , fused rice. That is very good. Light, at the same time soft purgative. That milk mixed with is a very good food for old men. Hari-śauri: In that newspaper article in the Butler Eagle , that very first article when you just arrived that we saw? They showed that copy in Los Angeles. It mentioned, the reporter there, he quoted you as saying that—you were telling him about milk, how good it was—and he quoted you as saying that milk is the miracle food for babies and old men. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. No, it may be there are so many other food, but cent percent of the human society, everyone has some way or other taken milk. So morally, cow is our mother. How these mothers are being killed? That is the question. Where is morality? Where is . . .? And they are drawing last drop of the milk. And there is necessity of milk. "After taking whatever money you have got . . . take, and I shall kill you." What is this? Horrible society. If I take from you whatever you have got in your pocket and then I kill you, what is this society? Jagadīśa: The only thing that stops them from killing each other is that there are certain laws. Otherwise, I'm sure that the human beings are so barbaric that they would kill each other. Hari-śauri: Actually, they are making adjustments to the law so that they can do that. *Prabhupāda: Yes, in India, in Vṛndāvana, they are killing now for a little money. They are so poverty*-stricken. They have got a clique. Because in Vṛndāvana there are many retired men; they get some money from bank or some saving bank in post office. And they have got clique with this post office man and the bank clerk who has taken money. Bon Mahārāja was attacked. He brought some one lakh rupees, one and a half lakh rupees for some . . . he was recognized by the . . . so as soon, at night—he was living in the Institute—attacked, in the presence of police. Police was guarding that others may not come to help. Hari-śauri: The police were helping the thieves? Prabhupāda: Yes. I think the magistrate even was complicated. And when it was complained, the magistrate said: "Better not to take it seriously; it will be your . . . I'll give you some guard." That's all. Hari-śauri: They'll do anything for money. *Prabhupāda: Now, in the Kali*-yuga, things will degrade so low that if I see I have no money and if you have got some few cents with you, I shall kill you and take it. That day will come. Very dangerous condition is coming forward. Yes, if things go on like this . . . just like we saw in Detroit, the whole city is dangerously situated. Therefore nobody purchased that house. Jagadīśa: Eighty percent of the people in the city are black. Prabhupāda: And the white men, they are very much afraid of these black men. They have to be afraid. Jagadīśa: They've taken over the city. *Prabhupāda: Without them, the factories cannot go on. That's all. The white men cannot work so hard. How they . . .? No gentleman can do that. This kind of work is meant for the fourth*-class, fifth-class men. Therefore they cannot say anything. They require. And they know that their money will be taken away again by supplying them wine. They'll pay, and next moment, the wine merchant will take away. And the government will get huge profit without doing anything. And excise tax. Excise tax, government hasn't got to invest or do anything—simply take the tax. Hari-śauri: Every time they put a tax increase, it's always on beer and cigarettes. Always, every time. And motorcars. Because they know the people are so much addicted that even if they squeeze and squeeze and squeeze, they will still get more, and the people will still pay. Prabhupāda: And addicted people, they, they're after the . . . get money some way or other, beg, borrow or steal. So these black men especially, they are expert. They are not expert in begging, but borrowing and stealing. Jagadīśa: Is it possible, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will, in the future, turn the tide and gain predominating influence? Change . . . Prabhupāda: Thing is that if the leaders of the society, they come to their consciousness, that this way the society cannot be peaceful, the way they are now conducting . . . if they have brain . . . just like the other day, the Christian priest, he was speaking of disabled men. You were present? "I challenge you, what do you mean by disabled man? If one man has lost his arm, can you supply it?" Then he stopped. Hari-śauri: He was finished when you told him it was all imaginary. Prabhupāda: Yes, actually. What you can do? Jagadīśa: Other than yourself, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no one in the world has a vision how to save the world. Prabhupāda: Because I honestly think of it. Maybe others are also honest, but they do not know the right way. How they can be honest? Just like this Communist movement, now they are favoring the labor class and rejecting the capitalist class altogether. They cannot make any adjustment. Jagadīśa: I've understood that communism is presented by the administrative class when there is a condition of scarcity. When there is opulence, then there is room for personal, individual enterprise, but when there is scarcity, that cannot be encouraged, and the common people have to be subjugated. So capitalism and communism are both simply philosophies how to keep the common man satisfied. So it's simply another means of exploitation. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is exploitation, and actually they have done it. Hari-śauri: There is still one class of men living at the expense of another, whether it's Communist or capitalist . . . (end) Prabhupāda: If we say all these things, they will cut my head. (laughs) Therefore I don't say in the public meeting all these things. But it is actually dog's race. No value. Actually, no value. We cannot give any value to this type of civilization, running like dog with car. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember in South Africa, though, Prabhupāda, you called them, (laughs) at every meeting, dogs and cats. And afterward they were always applauding. (claps) Hari-śauri: He did that. (laughing) You did that in South India as well. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think that if . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, when I come in emotion, I cannot check to speak the truth. But actually it is the fact. I cannot give any credit to these rascals (laughs) who are running at high speed, big, big car. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What did we read? There was an article about Mars today. Hari-śauri: Oh. Nonsense. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The scientists, again . . . *Hari-śauri: They were speculating about . . . they sent this spaceship to Mars, and they were speculating that maybe now the so*-called smog that covers the surface of the planet, it could be fog. It could be made of ice and water particles. So now they . . . so they were speculating like that. And then they said they were going to land the spaceship in a valley at a certain point that is four miles deep and that may . . . it may have been filled with water fifty thousand years ago, and it could have fossils in it from the type of life that existed there, if it existed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fifty thousand years ago. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Scientist rascal. How ludicrous. Simply "maybe," "if it was" and "it will be." That's all. Simply "maybe." Hari-śauri: Yes. They were speculating about, even they didn't know what the atmosphere was, and yet they know . . . yet they were stating that they were going to land this spaceship at a certain point just below the Martian equator in a valley which is just at the mouth of the valley, which is four miles deep. Prabhupāda: And people are taking, "Oh, it is scientific research." Hari-śauri: They are such rascals. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This cheating has to stop. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This cheating has to be stopped. Hari-śauri: And actually, on the same page, what was that, the percentage of scientists who are engaged in warfare? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Forty percent of all the scientists in the world, the estimate is, are engaged in making weapons. And it said that since the end of World War II, six trillion dollars, which is six thousand billion dollars, have been spent on armament in the world. Hari-śauri: In the West. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The West, did it say? *Prabhupāda: In India have no money. They can't get. (laughs) They have no sufficient money to eat even. Still they are spending more than fifty percent, fifty*-four percent. *Hari-śauri: They estimate there's four hundred thousand so*-called scientists working on armament. Prabhupāda: Working on? Hari-śauri: Armament. Weapons. Weapon development. Defense. They call it defense measures. Prabhupāda: Just see. Why defense? Man to man. That means they are dogs. The dogs defend from another dog. Is it not? As soon as they see another dog, " Yow, yow, yow. " So then where is the defense between man to man? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're worried now that they won't be able to disarm, the article was saying, because, somehow or another, there's going to be a disaster unless there is immediate disarmament. But they don't think it's possible. Prabhupāda: No. How they can disarm? They have been trained up like dogs to bark and fight. How there can be disarmament? Hari-śauri: They've been talking about disarmament for who knows how long. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: They've been talking about disarmament for years and years together. But they're simply increasing. There's no disarmament. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even within the different religions they are fighting amongst each other. Prabhupāda: No, no. This religion is also bogus. How the dogs can understand religion? It is simply woax. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Simply? Prabhupāda: Woax, woax. What is called? Woax? Hari-śauri: Wasp? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like a bee? *Prabhupāda: No, no. Colossal woax. H*-o-a-x. Find out this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: H? *Prabhupāda: H*-o-a-x. Hari-śauri: Hoax. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hoax! Joke. Hari-śauri: Everything's just a bluff. Just a show. Prabhupāda: Hoax, yes. *Hari-śauri: Rubber*-stamping. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (reading from dictionary) Hoax means "To deceive, take in, sometimes by way of joke, humorous or mischievous deception." *Prabhupāda: Vibhrama . The Sanskrit is vibhrama*-milita-kriyā. The ārambha, ārambha means endeavor, very gorgeous. The result is sand and rocks. Going to the moon planet, the ārambha was so much expensive. And the result is to bring some sand and rocks. This is hoax. And another: parvatān muṣika bhavaḥ . Hoax . . . (indistinct) . . . like that. There was a great advertisement that the Himalayan mountain is going to deliver a child. So people gathered on, to see, "Oh, such a big mountain. The child must be a very big child." So they went to see there, and they saw one rat is coming from the hole of . . . a rat is coming. They expected another Himalayan mountain, and they saw from the holes, one rat is coming. This is going on. And they are satisfied: "Now the Himalaya has delivered the child." One rat. (laughs) This attempt is like Himalaya begetting a child. If some elephant would have come, it would have saved the . . . not even elephant; one rat. And in English, another is, "Much ado about nothing." Hari-śauri: Shakespeare. Prabhupāda: Yes. The result is nothing. What is the meaning of "ado"? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Endeavor. Prabhupāda: Endeavor. Yes. So these things are like that. Not sober. Dhīras tatra na muhyati ( BG 2.13). They are not sober. Adhīra . Therefore they meet with so many accidents. (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa) You also. As soon as one is in the car, he wants to drive at a hundred miles speed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think it was token punishment, but I'm sorry that you were in the car. Prabhupāda: (laughs) What is the use? You are not going to serve anyone that we have to go high speed. We can go comfortably. Hari-śauri: We can make our own pace. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara also. When he was driving seventy miles. And what you are doing? What is that? This country, Portland. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oregon? From Eugene to Oregon. Prabhupāda: Oregon, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I was in the car with you in the back seat. Prabhupāda: Oh, you were in the car? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They all fell asleep. I was chanting. You were sitting. You didn't even go to sleep that night. (laughs) Even though it was late at night, it was about eleven, twelve, one o'clock at night, you didn't want to stay at that bhogī yogī house. I remember that. And he drove very, very fast back to Portland. That was a very nice engagement. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That was Śyāmasundara's father's car. So he's a good driver, (laughter) but very dangerous driver. I do not know. Śyāmasundara, his father is a rich man, lawyer, got good estate, and he's the only son. He did not like to stay with father. Hari-śauri: No one in the West likes to stay with their parents. Prabhupāda: Two sisters, very beautiful girls. They're unhappy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're unhappy? Prabhupāda: Yes. His two sisters. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember he was preaching to them. At least one of them that came to the temple that time. She came to that program. Prabhupāda: She first of all came in London. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: She was piano player. Prabhupāda: Anyway, they're artists. They're artists. They're not happy. Divorced. His mother is very gentle, I have seen. Father is also respectable man. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Family life in the West is disastrous. Prabhupāda: The father wants to get them back at home, but they don't . . . the father is also taking pills for sleeping. (laughs) Father is also not happy. Hari-śauri: That's the thing. In the West, even though the opulence is there, the children can see the parents are not happy. The parents are always full of anxiety. So even though the parents want the children to stay at home, the children, they resent that, because they can see that, "You have nothing to offer. It's just a facade." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't want to become like their parents. They don't see that their parents are a desirable example to follow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Wine and sex. They see from childhood. One boy, our Rancor, so his father and mother divorced, and he was young child. He was the first child of his mother. And the mother, he said, would daily bring new friend. So he could understand. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A new woman. Prabhupāda: Not new woman. His mother, he was under the care of mother. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, mother had new husbands, new boyfriends. Prabhupāda: Daily, night. And he was shocked. One of my Gauḍīya Maṭha Godbrothers, big, he became the head of this Bhag Bazaar Gauḍīya Maṭha. So his wife was debauched, and she was bringing new paramour, and the child protested. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: New? Prabhupāda: Paramour. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Paramour. Prabhupāda: Yes and the boy, he was ten years or twelve years old, he could understand, "Who is this man?" So he protested and said: "I shall tell all these things to my father." And he was killed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The boy was killed? Prabhupāda: By the mother. Hari-śauri: She murdered him? Prabhupāda: Yes. Killed means given poison. And the father, that is, my Godbrother, seeing this, he also took poison. This is the end of Gauḍīya Maṭha scandal. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He also . . . he was also one of the trustees. This Tīrtha Mahārāja was a trustee, and another Godbrother and this man. In the beginning, they were made trustees. In the beginning, Prabhupāda was to undergo surgical operation. So he was a little nervous, that "I may die." So he made a scrap paper, that "In case I die, these three disciples will be trustees of the Gauḍīya Maṭha Institute." That's all. So this Kuñja Bābu kept this. There are many long histories. So one of the so*-called trustees was this Vāsudeva. So he died. His end was like this. His son was killed, isn't it? Prabhupāda: His wife was a regular prostitute, and she killed her child, and on this shock, he took poison and died. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He killed himself. Oh. Prabhupāda: Naturally he became shocked that, "This is my family life—the wife is prostitute and son is killed. What is the value of my life?" This was his spiritual realization. Just see. (laughs) And he was made the chief, and one of the supporter was Śrīdhara Mahārāja. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vāsudeva Śrīdhara? Prabhupāda: No, no. He was made chief. Guru Mahārāja did not make him chief. But after his passing away, some of our Godbrothers voted him chief. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Am I mis . . .? You had told me once—I'm not certain; maybe I made a mistake—you said that Vāsudeva, it was known fact that he was homosex? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vāsudeva. Prabhupāda: He was homosex and sex, everything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in this city . . . I haven't been back in so many years to America. Things have become more degraded. I'm watching women and women walking arm around each other. And I asked: "What is this?" "Oh," he says: "They are lesbians." Women together, girlfriends. They don't mix with men. Prabhupāda: This is now very much prevalent in America. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No higher consciousness. Prabhupāda: I had one disciple, she was for that purpose. Just see. Satsvarūpa: So one professor is already here. Prabhupāda: Let him come. Satsvarūpa: This is Shivaram. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Should I turn this light on? Prabhupāda: Yes. You also sit down. Note down. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I want to get the newspapers that you wanted. (break) Prabhupāda: So what can I do? (laughs) Jayādvaita: I'll speak to Rāmeśvara and see if we can do something to publish it. (break) Prabhupāda: I began with these men are running on car and the dog is running on leg, where is the difference? His running by car is his advancement of civilization. They are taking running by car, never mind the passenger is a dog. (laughter) But the passenger is running on car, a dog, therefore he's a dog. Jayādvaita: They use these cars for running after women. Prabhupāda: That is the same thing. Just like dog runs after. Hari-śauri: What will the program be? Won't Prabhupāda speak down there also? Prabhupāda: What is speaking? Hari-śauri: I'll just see if everything is ready. (break) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Prabhupāda: If we say all these things, they will cut my head. (laughs) Therefore I don't say in the public meeting all these things. But it is actually dog's race. No value. Actually, no value. We cannot give any value to this type of civilization, running like dog with car. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember in South Africa, though, Prabhupāda, you called them, (laughs) at every meeting, dogs and cats. And afterward they were always applauding. (claps) Hari-śauri: He did that. (laughing) You did that in South India as well. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think that if . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, when I come in emotion, I cannot check to speak the truth. But actually it is the fact. I cannot give any credit to these rascals (laughs) who are running at high speed, big, big car. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What did we read? There was an article about Mars today. Hari-śauri: Oh. Nonsense. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The scientists, again . . . *Hari-śauri: They were speculating about . . . they sent this spaceship to Mars, and they were speculating that maybe now the so*-called smog that covers the surface of the planet, it could be fog. It could be made of ice and water particles. So now they . . . so they were speculating like that. And then they said they were going to land the spaceship in a valley at a certain point that is four miles deep and that may . . . it may have been filled with water fifty thousand years ago, and it could have fossils in it from the type of life that existed there, if it existed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fifty thousand years ago. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Scientist rascal. How ludicrous. Simply "maybe," "if it was" and "it will be." That's all. Simply "maybe." Hari-śauri: Yes. They were speculating about, even they didn't know what the atmosphere was, and yet they know . . . yet they were stating that they were going to land this spaceship at a certain point just below the Martian equator in a valley which is just at the mouth of the valley, which is four miles deep. Prabhupāda: And people are taking, "Oh, it is scientific research." Hari-śauri: They are such rascals. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This cheating has to stop. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This cheating has to be stopped. Hari-śauri: And actually, on the same page, what was that, the percentage of scientists who are engaged in warfare? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Forty percent of all the scientists in the world, the estimate is, are engaged in making weapons. And it said that since the end of World War II, six trillion dollars, which is six thousand billion dollars, have been spent on armament in the world. Hari-śauri: In the West. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The West, did it say? *Prabhupāda: In India have no money. They can't get. (laughs) They have no sufficient money to eat even. Still they are spending more than fifty percent, fifty*-four percent. *Hari-śauri: They estimate there's four hundred thousand so*-called scientists working on armament. Prabhupāda: Working on? Hari-śauri: Armament. Weapons. Weapon development. Defense. They call it defense measures. Prabhupāda: Just see. Why defense? Man to man. That means they are dogs. The dogs defend from another dog. Is it not? As soon as they see another dog, " Yow, yow, yow. " So then where is the defense between man to man? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're worried now that they won't be able to disarm, the article was saying, because, somehow or another, there's going to be a disaster unless there is immediate disarmament. But they don't think it's possible. Prabhupāda: No. How they can disarm? They have been trained up like dogs to bark and fight. How there can be disarmament? Hari-śauri: They've been talking about disarmament for who knows how long. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: They've been talking about disarmament for years and years together. But they're simply increasing. There's no disarmament. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even within the different religions they are fighting amongst each other. Prabhupāda: No, no. This religion is also bogus. How the dogs can understand religion? It is simply woax. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Simply? Prabhupāda: Woax, woax. What is called? Woax? Hari-śauri: Wasp? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like a bee? *Prabhupāda: No, no. Colossal woax. H*-o-a-x. Find out this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: H? *Prabhupāda: H*-o-a-x. Hari-śauri: Hoax. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hoax! Joke. Hari-śauri: Everything's just a bluff. Just a show. Prabhupāda: Hoax, yes. *Hari-śauri: Rubber*-stamping. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (reading from dictionary) Hoax means "To deceive, take in, sometimes by way of joke, humorous or mischievous deception." *Prabhupāda: Vibhrama . The Sanskrit is vibhrama*-milita-kriyā. The ārambha, ārambha means endeavor, very gorgeous. The result is sand and rocks. Going to the moon planet, the ārambha was so much expensive. And the result is to bring some sand and rocks. This is hoax. And another: parvatān muṣika bhavaḥ . Hoax . . . (indistinct) . . . like that. There was a great advertisement that the Himalayan mountain is going to deliver a child. So people gathered on, to see, "Oh, such a big mountain. The child must be a very big child." So they went to see there, and they saw one rat is coming from the hole of . . . a rat is coming. They expected another Himalayan mountain, and they saw from the holes, one rat is coming. This is going on. And they are satisfied: "Now the Himalaya has delivered the child." One rat. (laughs) This attempt is like Himalaya begetting a child. If some elephant would have come, it would have saved the . . . not even elephant; one rat. And in English, another is, "Much ado about nothing." Hari-śauri: Shakespeare. Prabhupāda: Yes. The result is nothing. What is the meaning of "ado"? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Endeavor. Prabhupāda: Endeavor. Yes. So these things are like that. Not sober. Dhīras tatra na muhyati ( BG 2.13). They are not sober. Adhīra . Therefore they meet with so many accidents. (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa) You also. As soon as one is in the car, he wants to drive at a hundred miles speed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think it was token punishment, but I'm sorry that you were in the car. Prabhupāda: (laughs) What is the use? You are not going to serve anyone that we have to go high speed. We can go comfortably. Hari-śauri: We can make our own pace. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara also. When he was driving seventy miles. And what you are doing? What is that? This country, Portland. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oregon? From Eugene to Oregon. Prabhupāda: Oregon, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I was in the car with you in the back seat. Prabhupāda: Oh, you were in the car? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They all fell asleep. I was chanting. You were sitting. You didn't even go to sleep that night. (laughs) Even though it was late at night, it was about eleven, twelve, one o'clock at night, you didn't want to stay at that bhogī yogī house. I remember that. And he drove very, very fast back to Portland. That was a very nice engagement. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That was Śyāmasundara's father's car. So he's a good driver, (laughter) but very dangerous driver. I do not know. Śyāmasundara, his father is a rich man, lawyer, got good estate, and he's the only son. He did not like to stay with father. Hari-śauri: No one in the West likes to stay with their parents. Prabhupāda: Two sisters, very beautiful girls. They're unhappy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're unhappy? Prabhupāda: Yes. His two sisters. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember he was preaching to them. At least one of them that came to the temple that time. She came to that program. Prabhupāda: She first of all came in London. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: She was piano player. Prabhupāda: Anyway, they're artists. They're artists. They're not happy. Divorced. His mother is very gentle, I have seen. Father is also respectable man. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Family life in the West is disastrous. Prabhupāda: The father wants to get them back at home, but they don't . . . the father is also taking pills for sleeping. (laughs) Father is also not happy. Hari-śauri: That's the thing. In the West, even though the opulence is there, the children can see the parents are not happy. The parents are always full of anxiety. So even though the parents want the children to stay at home, the children, they resent that, because they can see that, "You have nothing to offer. It's just a facade." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't want to become like their parents. They don't see that their parents are a desirable example to follow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Wine and sex. They see from childhood. One boy, our Rancor, so his father and mother divorced, and he was young child. He was the first child of his mother. And the mother, he said, would daily bring new friend. So he could understand. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A new woman. Prabhupāda: Not new woman. His mother, he was under the care of mother. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, mother had new husbands, new boyfriends. Prabhupāda: Daily, night. And he was shocked. One of my Gauḍīya Maṭha Godbrothers, big, he became the head of this Bhag Bazaar Gauḍīya Maṭha. So his wife was debauched, and she was bringing new paramour, and the child protested. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: New? Prabhupāda: Paramour. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Paramour. Prabhupāda: Yes and the boy, he was ten years or twelve years old, he could understand, "Who is this man?" So he protested and said: "I shall tell all these things to my father." And he was killed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The boy was killed? Prabhupāda: By the mother. Hari-śauri: She murdered him? Prabhupāda: Yes. Killed means given poison. And the father, that is, my Godbrother, seeing this, he also took poison. This is the end of Gauḍīya Maṭha scandal. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He also . . . he was also one of the trustees. This Tīrtha Mahārāja was a trustee, and another Godbrother and this man. In the beginning, they were made trustees. In the beginning, Prabhupāda was to undergo surgical operation. So he was a little nervous, that "I may die." So he made a scrap paper, that "In case I die, these three disciples will be trustees of the Gauḍīya Maṭha Institute." That's all. So this Kuñja Bābu kept this. There are many long histories. So one of the so*-called trustees was this Vāsudeva. So he died. His end was like this. His son was killed, isn't it? Prabhupāda: His wife was a regular prostitute, and she killed her child, and on this shock, he took poison and died. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He killed himself. Oh. Prabhupāda: Naturally he became shocked that, "This is my family life—the wife is prostitute and son is killed. What is the value of my life?" This was his spiritual realization. Just see. (laughs) And he was made the chief, and one of the supporter was Śrīdhara Mahārāja. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vāsudeva Śrīdhara? Prabhupāda: No, no. He was made chief. Guru Mahārāja did not make him chief. But after his passing away, some of our Godbrothers voted him chief. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Am I mis . . .? You had told me once—I'm not certain; maybe I made a mistake—you said that Vāsudeva, it was known fact that he was homosex? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vāsudeva. Prabhupāda: He was homosex and sex, everything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in this city . . . I haven't been back in so many years to America. Things have become more degraded. I'm watching women and women walking arm around each other. And I asked: "What is this?" "Oh," he says: "They are lesbians." Women together, girlfriends. They don't mix with men. Prabhupāda: This is now very much prevalent in America. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No higher consciousness. Prabhupāda: I had one disciple, she was for that purpose. Just see. Satsvarūpa: So one professor is already here. Prabhupāda: Let him come. Satsvarūpa: This is Shivaram. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Should I turn this light on? Prabhupāda: Yes. You also sit down. Note down. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I want to get the newspapers that you wanted. (break) Prabhupāda: So what can I do? (laughs) Jayādvaita: I'll speak to Rāmeśvara and see if we can do something to publish it. (break) Prabhupāda: I began with these men are running on car and the dog is running on leg, where is the difference? His running by car is his advancement of civilization. They are taking running by car, never mind the passenger is a dog. (laughter) But the passenger is running on car, a dog, therefore he's a dog. Jayādvaita: They use these cars for running after women. Prabhupāda: That is the same thing. Just like dog runs after. Hari-śauri: What will the program be? Won't Prabhupāda speak down there also? Prabhupāda: What is speaking? Hari-śauri: I'll just see if everything is ready. (break) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Prabhupāda: Who will talk? You can speak. Satsvarūpa: So last year, at this time, a year ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda came to Śubhavilāsa's house as part of his visit to Toronto. At that time Toronto ISKCON had only a small temple which they'd had for years, on Gerrard Street. All the devotees were very enthusiastic, but their place was not such a nice facility. So Śrīla Prabhupāda visited and came here, and many members of the Indian community and other members of the Toronto community came, and Śrīla Prabhupāda spoke here. At the end of his talk, one man asked Śrīla Prabhupāda that, "We are very glad that you have come. Now you please come back again. When will you return again?" Śrīla Prabhupāda said: "I will return when you get a big temple for this center." He had seen different temples, including this big church, so Śrīla Prabhupāda's invitation to them was that they should make collection to purchase this temple. So Śubhavilāsa and Viśvakarma and all the devotees actually worked so hard, and by Kṛṣṇa's grace they were able to purchase this temple. So we can see that it is the desire of the pure devotee. Whatever Kṛṣṇa wants, He does not have to work at all. His desires are immediately fulfilled simply by His desiring. Everything is fulfilled. By Kṛṣṇa's finger signal the whole material creation is created, brought about, and it's maintained by His separate energies. And everything is annihilated by Kṛṣṇa's will and created again. So . . . and Kṛṣṇa, He is fulfilling all His infinite desires in the spiritual world also. So as Kṛṣṇa's desires are immediately fulfilled, the pure devotee's desires are also fulfilled. That's because he is one with the Lord. His interests are the same are Kṛṣṇa's. This is the oneness, that the pure devotee has no desire but to see that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And so by Śrīla Prabhupāda's desiring this to come about, praying to Kṛṣṇa, therefore the devotees also praying and endeavoring have brought about that now Toronto is situated in such a nice temple, and just since opening that temple now so many new devotees have come and joined. So it's now very firmly situated in this big North American city to go on spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *So we should be always so grateful to Śrīla Prabhupāda, not only for coming and visiting us in our temples, whereby we can actually see in this instance how by his visit this came about, that a year later now such a big, big temple is there . . . that anyone can plainly see. It is phenomenal. It can be seen. But also we should be grateful that by his instructions . . . because the physical presence is not always appreciable. Sometimes he is here and some, then he is not here. But always Śrīla Prabhupāda is with us by our following his instructions. We simply have to be obedient to these instructions. As Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying last night in the initiation lecture, that human life is meant to follow these instructions of tapo*-divyam ( SB 5.5.1), going to the difficulty of giving up sinful habits, meat-eating, illicit sex, intoxication, gambling, and engaging in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we do these things very sincerely, then we shall always have Śrīla Prabhupāda guiding us. Kṛṣṇa is in the heart, and when Kṛṣṇa in the heart sees that we are trying to follow the instructions of the pure devotee, who's also a manifestation of Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa within is the Supersoul. Kṛṣṇa manifested before us is the spiritual master. So the Lord within the heart will see that we are trying to follow the instructions of the spiritual master and will enlighten us how to always stay strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, how to always feel the direct association and direction of the spiritual master by obedience to his instructions. So all these things we'll realize more and more if we simply faithfully stick to Prabhupāda's instruction, and his main instruction is that we simply all be happy and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: You can . . . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can appreciate the temples that Śrīla Prabhupāda has established all over the world when we compare the material life, as going on today, with the life we live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Presently in this world, the Kali*-yuga is so much manifest. We can see that year by year things are becoming more and more degraded, not in arithmetic proportion but even in geometric proportions. So rapidly everywhere society is decaying and people are becoming more and more just like animals, exactly like animals—simply interested in eating, simply interested in sex life, simply interested in trying somehow or another to find some object to gratify the senses. But in the temple we can practically experience a different quality of life altogether. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is establishing the internal potency of the Lord within this material world in the form of his temples. Kṛṣṇa says, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13), that persons who are always glorifying Kṛṣṇa, they live in the internal potency of the Lord. And practically in our temples, glorification of Kṛṣṇa, by the order of our spiritual master, is going on. We can understand practically that to live in the temple is to live in the internal potency of the Lord—is very rare opportunity. We can see practically that there are so many billions and billions of people in the world suffering without any opportunity even of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *So just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even at this advanced age, in spite of so many difficulties . . . just like I'm somehow or another Śrīla Prabhupāda's secretary, and I'm always trying to arrange for his physical comforts. But he's always saying: "To preach means to accept discomfort," that for an older person to travel on airplanes and to always move about and to go here and there for the service of the Lord is naturally more difficult than for a very young person. But Prabhupāda is accepting this uncomfortable situation simply to establish Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout the world, at least to give people the opportunity that, "Choose, if you like, between the internal potency and the external potency." The external potency means that you're forced. We have no choice. We're forced to undergo repetition of birth and death. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Nobody likes to grow old, but this youthful age, soon it will become old age. And nobody likes to die. So present-day civilization is blindly going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās: (SB 7.5.31) the blind leading the blind. People are thinking that, "My parents did it. Their parents did it. Generations have done it. So also we engage blindly in materialistic way of life and everything will be okay." But the result is that everyone is simply suffering, and after this lifetime they also have to suffer the consequences of this present life's activities blindly, not knowing that they're responsible for their activities. *So we have a choice now whether to follow a representative of God, Kṛṣṇa, who can bring us to the internal potency of the Lord. This internal potency is not dry. It is the origin of bliss, sac*-cid-ānanda-vigraha (BS 5.1). It is not impersonal, void, lifeless, without any happiness. It is what everyone is actually looking for, simply pervertedly within this material world. So this opportunity is here. Before Prabhupāda came to the Western countries, actually there was no hope. There was no hope at all. There was no such knowledge, there was no such opportunity to choose between material life and something else. There was no reality other than this body, and for everyone it was simply a very hopeless, distressful situation. But Prabhupāda personally, even at advanced age, he's coming simply to give this opportunity to the Westerners and to everyone throughout the world, that besides this material life, there is another, eternal life, and if you utilize your independence very carefully to transfer your attachment to this internal potency of devotional service and service to the Vaiṣṇavas and to Kṛṣṇa, then you can become free forever from the encumbrance of repeated birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the great fortune that has come upon us in the form of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, in the form of association with the pure devotee, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and in the form of chanting the holy name. In so many ways we are being benedicted, and if we can simply remain fixed in the pure knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and we don't become illusioned by this material energy, thinking just like the animal that there's some happiness there . . . the animal is running after the mirage, but there's no water there. Similarly the foolish human beings, as Prabhupāda aptly mentioned the other day to these professors who came to visit him, the dog is running with four legs, here and there, very, very busy, and the human being also he's running, but he's running in an automobile with four wheels. But he's thinking that his running is superior to the dog's running. Why? He's very busy running here and there for the same activities, and the dog is running with four legs. The activities are the same. So without culture the running in the car and the running of the dog is the same. So this Kṛṣṇa culture is now being spread all throughout the world. It's giving people to see how actually human life should be lived. And the temple is a place where practically we can set an ideal example of human life for the whole of human society. Therefore we're greatly indebted to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Jagadīśa, you can. Jagadīśa: *In the world, in the material world, there are two kinds of persons: devotees and the demons. Devotees are those who have understood the existence of the Supreme Lord and are engaged somehow or other in His service, and the demons are those who reject the service of the Lord. In the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad*-gītā this is described: catur-vidhā bhajante mām (BG 7.16). There are four types of people who surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So those who are in distress, those who are in search of money, those who are inquisitive and those who are searching after the Absolute Truth, so these four kinds of persons, when given the opportunity, will take shelter of the Supreme Lord. And the other four kinds of persons are called, are described in Bhagavad-gītā . . . Prabhupāda: Duṣkṛtina . Jagadīśa: Duṣkṛtina. *Hari-śauri: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. Jagadīśa: What's the first? Those who are mūḍha , foolish, grossly foolish; those who are narādhama , those who are lowest of mankind; *those who are māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā , those whose knowledge is stolen by illusion; *those, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ , those who are of the atheistic nature of demons. These four kinds of persons do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. In the purport in Bhagavad*-gītā Śrīla Prabhupāda has explained that practically 99.9% of the human population fits in these categories, will not surrender unto the Supreme Lord. Therefore the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is formed to give opportunity to those who choose to surrender to the Lord to associate with one another, to cooperate together in serving the mission of the Lord. *The material world is created for a specific purpose by the Supreme Lord. That purpose is to give a chance to the forgetful living beings who have tried to exercise independence from Kṛṣṇa to once again understand their position. They're put into various conditions of material existence in order to learn that they are not the enjoyers and controllers. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer. Param īśvara. He's the supreme controller. Everything is meant for His satisfaction. In Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa is described, describes Himself, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8) that, "All material and spiritual worlds are created by Me. Everything is emanating from Me." So created by Kṛṣṇa for His pleasure, just as a father or a man takes a wife and has children and gets a house, and he expands himself in this way for enjoyment. He tries to enjoy by expanding his influence in the material world. So this is because he's part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and he has the same tendency as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer, and He has expanded Himself in multi-energies to enjoy Himself, and the conditioned souls are also part of that multifarious energy. They are called marginal, jīva-śakti , and that means they can go one way or the other. They can choose to use their independence to please Kṛṣṇa or they can choose to use their independence otherwise. That otherwise means that they must come to the material world. That is Kṛṣṇa's purpose in creating the material world—to give a chance to these foolish living entities to revive their eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. *So within human society . . . this is also stated in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā , manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3): "Out of many thousands of men, one may endeavor for perfection. And of many such perfected men, hardly one knows Me in truth." So the material world is a very dangerous place. The living beings within the material world are kṣatram . They do not know the purpose of life. They are simply interested in their own advancement, somehow or other. So they engage in all kinds of destructive activities which cause harm to themselves and to others. So this is the condition of the material world. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda has stated that this is no place for a gentleman. In the material world everyone is, just as we are observing . . . I was visiting the Kṛṣṇa consciousness farm in British Columbia, and on the road we were passing large herds of beef cows. We were discussing that the farmer thinks of these cows not as spirit souls but as commodities. He simply puts them in a field to eat, and when they get big enough, kills them and takes the money for his enjoyment. He doesn't see that these are living entities, spirit souls. So this activity of the human beings, killing the cows, helpless cows by the thousands daily, is causing the . . . or is an indication that there is no merciful quality in the human beings. They are simply interested in their own aggrandizement and welfare. If they don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the only alternative. Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes and canvasses, and He tells the conditioned souls, "You must surrender to Me." And if one chooses not to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that means that he himself wants to become Kṛṣṇa—without any qualification. The spirit soul is infinitesimal spark of Kṛṣṇa. And that spark, when not in touch with Kṛṣṇa, the fire, becomes like the sparks of the fire not in contact with the fire: extinguished. So there is no good qualities for the living beings who are outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So the four types of men who surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they're doing so with some selfish interest. All of the conditioned souls are acting for their own selfish interest. They do not know otherwise. But somehow or other, if one of the conditioned souls will surrender to Kṛṣṇa by the grace of a pure devotee, then that immediately puts him into a situation of becoming purified. The greatest purification is to come in touch with a pure devotee of the Lord. There are many, many ritualistic activities prescribed in the Vedic literatures for gradual purification. But, as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī points out in his Upadeśāmṛta , what is the good of undergoing so much atonement and pious activity if the heart remains contaminated and the living entity remains sinful, ready to . . . just acting for his own benefit? Therefore the greatest opportunity for the conditioned soul is when he gets the chance to associate with a pure devotee of the Lord. *The pure devotee of the Lord instructs the conditioned soul to engage in activities just to please Kṛṣṇa, as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī explains. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11), without any separate interest, no mixture of jñāna or karma , no desire for sense gratification or acquisition of knowledge, just to engage in activities for the pleasure of the Supreme. This is the perfection. Otherwise, without coming in touch with a pure devotee of the Lord no one could understand this. And especially in this age of Kali, when the human society is so degraded that if it weren't for some laws prohibiting, and even despite those laws, the human beings are engaged in cut-throat activities, killing one another. Just like this abortion. Now they've passed some law which allows killing. So now it is going on, wholesale slaughtering, by mothers of their own children. This is the condition of human society. *So the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is specifically formed by Śrīla Prabhupāda to help those of us who are lost and entangled in this material condition to associate with one another under his guidance and achieve, by this process recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, chanting the holy name, we can achieve rapid purification, and in this one lifetime, Śrīla Prabhupāda has promised that we can go back to home, back to Godhead. So we should try to cooperate together. There is no other purpose. Once one comes in touch with the pure devotee and understands his message, and there's no other purpose for living in this material world than to serve the mission of the Lord. And that mission of the Lord, as already explained, is to reclaim the conditioned souls who have fallen into the material world and are lost, helplessly entrapped. So we should try and cooperate together. Learn Śrīla Prabhupāda's instructions very perfectly and try to carry them out, following the four regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds and working together to spread the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world so that its influence can affect all the living beings who are living on the face of the earth. Actually in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī has stated that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will spread all over the universe. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is undoubtedly empowered by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He's doing such wonderful service, spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over this globe, and we should pray that we can help in some small way. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya . *Prabhupāda: So I have heard that there are about fifty thousand Indians in Toronto. So why they are not coming? They want to become bara*-sāhīb only? Śubhavilāsa: Yes, they are here to make the money, that's all they are doing. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) They have no other purpose? So this is not good. What is their objection? They don't want their own culture? This is Indian culture. They should be proud that Indian culture is being accepted by the foreigners. And they are living, they are becoming bara*-sāhīb ? What is this? Now it is your duty to deliver these bara-sāhībs , that they are not taking interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hmm? No, so is there any other outsider Indian present? Indian devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Come here. But you have already joined. (laughter) Devotee: He's . . . (indistinct) . . . from Montreal. Prabhupāda: Your trick. Your trademark is there. ( tilak ) *Indian devotee: Nama oṁ viṣṇu*-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhūtale . . . Devotee: There's Gururaj. They are also chanting sixteen rounds a day now, and he's staying at the temple. Prabhupāda: So he has already joined. I mean those who have not joined. I think this gentleman? I saw him in the morning. So, Kya karan hai je hamara bhartiya log nahi aate hain. (What is the reason that our Indians are not coming?) Indian man (1): This is a very good question. Apne jo pucha . . . kyun nahi aate hain? (The question you have asked . . . why don't they come?) Prabhupāda: Ye to thik nahi hai kyunki . . . (This is not proper because . . .) this is the sign of degradation. So Indians have become so degraded, shall I take it like that? Indian man (1): No, it's not that, but there must be some other reason why they're not coming. *Prabhupāda: What is other reason? There cannot be any reason. Here is temple of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa, and the Bhagavad-gītā is being preached, Bhāgavata is being preached. Why they do not take interest? Indian man (1): I've been coming to temple for six years now here in Toronto. Prabhupāda: Well, you are coming, all right. But I have heard that there are fifty thousand Indians. So why they do not come? Indian man (1): Maybe it's catching up now, more. Prabhupāda: Is there any special reason, they can discuss with me, if one is interested. Indian man (1): Mujhe lagta hai, jaise ho sakta hai ki, jaisa hamara tarika hai ki sadkon pe jake . . ., log isse thoda ghabra jate hain. Kyunki wo sochte hain hamare upare discrimination aayegi. (I feel, it might be possible that, the system which we have of going out on the streets, people might get little nervous. They think that they might receive discrimination upon themselves.) The society here to accept this kind of thing, and people maybe don't want to align themselves with this kind of thing so that they are not ridiculed by others. This could be one of the reasons. Because, you know . . . Prabhupāda: Ridicule? Indian man (1): The method may be, they may think, maybe that it is too strong for people here to accept. Prabhupāda: No, strong, disease bhi to strong hai na. Jaisa disease vaisa davai hona chahiye. Ye jo bhagavan ko bhool jana aur sharab pina maas khana ye disease to he bhari gambhir hai.. (The disease is also strong is it not? According to the disease, the right medicine must be used. This forgetfulness of God and taking intoxicants, eating meat - this disease is very serious.) Jaya , Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): Many of them think we're fanatical, from Western countries. Prabhupāda: Many? jaya Kya karan hai bhartiya log . . . (What is the reason the Indians . . .) Indian man (2): I don't speak Hindi. I'm from South America, British Guinea. Prabhupāda: So what is the reason the Indians are not coming in large numbers? They are coming, some. Indian man (1): I think they are too much in māyā . (laughter) Indian man (2): They want to be Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (1): Everybody wants to be Kṛṣṇa themselves. Prabhupāda: Rascal. (laughter) Everyone wants to become a rascal. Don't be that. Indian man (1): Ve to inse bhi aage badh gaye hain, Americans se, unse bhi jyada khana pina shuru kar diye hain. (They have even gone ahead than the Americans, they have started to eat meat and consume alcohol more than these Americans.) Prabhupāda: Ye sab mayavadi ye log ko sikha diya sab jahanoom me jane ke liye. (All these Mayavadis have taught them to go to hell.) This is not good. Everyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa. Śubhavilāsa: Or they're seeking for Kṛṣṇa in the material world. Prabhupāda: Wo pahad utha sakta hai kya Krishna jaisa? (Can he lift the mountain like Kṛṣṇa?) As Kṛṣṇa lifted the Govardhana Hill at seven years old, so can he do that? Then how he'll become Kṛṣṇa? Simply by imagination. Kuch kar ke to dikhao. Ye sab badmaashi kharab kar diya hai Hindu society ko. (Show me by doing something. All this bullying has ruined the Hindu society. Indian man (1): There are too many sections of religion, Hindu religion. *Prabhupāda: There cannot be any section. There are two section, demons and the demigods. That is the statement in the śāstra . Dvau bhūta*-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca (BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva and āsura . Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ . So if they want to remain demons, that is their choice. But that will not help them. Indian man (1): Most fortunate men try to follow Kṛṣṇa. The unfortunate try to follow . . . Prabhupāda: So anyway, now it is Śubhavilāsa Prabhu's duty to bring these imitation Kṛṣṇas. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (3): : Many, many good bhaktas are being spoiled by impersonalists nowadays . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. You are personalist or impersonalist? He is personalist. (laughter) Hari*-nāma karo mala hai to japo. (Do harinam , if you have beads then chant.) So, another kīrtana ? (end) Prabhupāda: Who will talk? You can speak. Satsvarūpa: So last year, at this time, a year ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda came to Śubhavilāsa's house as part of his visit to Toronto. At that time Toronto ISKCON had only a small temple which they'd had for years, on Gerrard Street. All the devotees were very enthusiastic, but their place was not such a nice facility. So Śrīla Prabhupāda visited and came here, and many members of the Indian community and other members of the Toronto community came, and Śrīla Prabhupāda spoke here. At the end of his talk, one man asked Śrīla Prabhupāda that, "We are very glad that you have come. Now you please come back again. When will you return again?" Śrīla Prabhupāda said: "I will return when you get a big temple for this center." He had seen different temples, including this big church, so Śrīla Prabhupāda's invitation to them was that they should make collection to purchase this temple. So Śubhavilāsa and Viśvakarma and all the devotees actually worked so hard, and by Kṛṣṇa's grace they were able to purchase this temple. So we can see that it is the desire of the pure devotee. Whatever Kṛṣṇa wants, He does not have to work at all. His desires are immediately fulfilled simply by His desiring. Everything is fulfilled. By Kṛṣṇa's finger signal the whole material creation is created, brought about, and it's maintained by His separate energies. And everything is annihilated by Kṛṣṇa's will and created again. So . . . and Kṛṣṇa, He is fulfilling all His infinite desires in the spiritual world also. So as Kṛṣṇa's desires are immediately fulfilled, the pure devotee's desires are also fulfilled. That's because he is one with the Lord. His interests are the same are Kṛṣṇa's. This is the oneness, that the pure devotee has no desire but to see that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And so by Śrīla Prabhupāda's desiring this to come about, praying to Kṛṣṇa, therefore the devotees also praying and endeavoring have brought about that now Toronto is situated in such a nice temple, and just since opening that temple now so many new devotees have come and joined. So it's now very firmly situated in this big North American city to go on spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *So we should be always so grateful to Śrīla Prabhupāda, not only for coming and visiting us in our temples, whereby we can actually see in this instance how by his visit this came about, that a year later now such a big, big temple is there . . . that anyone can plainly see. It is phenomenal. It can be seen. But also we should be grateful that by his instructions . . . because the physical presence is not always appreciable. Sometimes he is here and some, then he is not here. But always Śrīla Prabhupāda is with us by our following his instructions. We simply have to be obedient to these instructions. As Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying last night in the initiation lecture, that human life is meant to follow these instructions of tapo*-divyam ( SB 5.5.1), going to the difficulty of giving up sinful habits, meat-eating, illicit sex, intoxication, gambling, and engaging in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we do these things very sincerely, then we shall always have Śrīla Prabhupāda guiding us. Kṛṣṇa is in the heart, and when Kṛṣṇa in the heart sees that we are trying to follow the instructions of the pure devotee, who's also a manifestation of Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa within is the Supersoul. Kṛṣṇa manifested before us is the spiritual master. So the Lord within the heart will see that we are trying to follow the instructions of the spiritual master and will enlighten us how to always stay strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, how to always feel the direct association and direction of the spiritual master by obedience to his instructions. So all these things we'll realize more and more if we simply faithfully stick to Prabhupāda's instruction, and his main instruction is that we simply all be happy and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: You can . . . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can appreciate the temples that Śrīla Prabhupāda has established all over the world when we compare the material life, as going on today, with the life we live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Presently in this world, the Kali*-yuga is so much manifest. We can see that year by year things are becoming more and more degraded, not in arithmetic proportion but even in geometric proportions. So rapidly everywhere society is decaying and people are becoming more and more just like animals, exactly like animals—simply interested in eating, simply interested in sex life, simply interested in trying somehow or another to find some object to gratify the senses. But in the temple we can practically experience a different quality of life altogether. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is establishing the internal potency of the Lord within this material world in the form of his temples. Kṛṣṇa says, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13), that persons who are always glorifying Kṛṣṇa, they live in the internal potency of the Lord. And practically in our temples, glorification of Kṛṣṇa, by the order of our spiritual master, is going on. We can understand practically that to live in the temple is to live in the internal potency of the Lord—is very rare opportunity. We can see practically that there are so many billions and billions of people in the world suffering without any opportunity even of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *So just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even at this advanced age, in spite of so many difficulties . . . just like I'm somehow or another Śrīla Prabhupāda's secretary, and I'm always trying to arrange for his physical comforts. But he's always saying: "To preach means to accept discomfort," that for an older person to travel on airplanes and to always move about and to go here and there for the service of the Lord is naturally more difficult than for a very young person. But Prabhupāda is accepting this uncomfortable situation simply to establish Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout the world, at least to give people the opportunity that, "Choose, if you like, between the internal potency and the external potency." The external potency means that you're forced. We have no choice. We're forced to undergo repetition of birth and death. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Nobody likes to grow old, but this youthful age, soon it will become old age. And nobody likes to die. So present-day civilization is blindly going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās: (SB 7.5.31) the blind leading the blind. People are thinking that, "My parents did it. Their parents did it. Generations have done it. So also we engage blindly in materialistic way of life and everything will be okay." But the result is that everyone is simply suffering, and after this lifetime they also have to suffer the consequences of this present life's activities blindly, not knowing that they're responsible for their activities. *So we have a choice now whether to follow a representative of God, Kṛṣṇa, who can bring us to the internal potency of the Lord. This internal potency is not dry. It is the origin of bliss, sac*-cid-ānanda-vigraha (BS 5.1). It is not impersonal, void, lifeless, without any happiness. It is what everyone is actually looking for, simply pervertedly within this material world. So this opportunity is here. Before Prabhupāda came to the Western countries, actually there was no hope. There was no hope at all. There was no such knowledge, there was no such opportunity to choose between material life and something else. There was no reality other than this body, and for everyone it was simply a very hopeless, distressful situation. But Prabhupāda personally, even at advanced age, he's coming simply to give this opportunity to the Westerners and to everyone throughout the world, that besides this material life, there is another, eternal life, and if you utilize your independence very carefully to transfer your attachment to this internal potency of devotional service and service to the Vaiṣṇavas and to Kṛṣṇa, then you can become free forever from the encumbrance of repeated birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the great fortune that has come upon us in the form of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, in the form of association with the pure devotee, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and in the form of chanting the holy name. In so many ways we are being benedicted, and if we can simply remain fixed in the pure knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and we don't become illusioned by this material energy, thinking just like the animal that there's some happiness there . . . the animal is running after the mirage, but there's no water there. Similarly the foolish human beings, as Prabhupāda aptly mentioned the other day to these professors who came to visit him, the dog is running with four legs, here and there, very, very busy, and the human being also he's running, but he's running in an automobile with four wheels. But he's thinking that his running is superior to the dog's running. Why? He's very busy running here and there for the same activities, and the dog is running with four legs. The activities are the same. So without culture the running in the car and the running of the dog is the same. So this Kṛṣṇa culture is now being spread all throughout the world. It's giving people to see how actually human life should be lived. And the temple is a place where practically we can set an ideal example of human life for the whole of human society. Therefore we're greatly indebted to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Jagadīśa, you can. Jagadīśa: *In the world, in the material world, there are two kinds of persons: devotees and the demons. Devotees are those who have understood the existence of the Supreme Lord and are engaged somehow or other in His service, and the demons are those who reject the service of the Lord. In the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad*-gītā this is described: catur-vidhā bhajante mām (BG 7.16). There are four types of people who surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So those who are in distress, those who are in search of money, those who are inquisitive and those who are searching after the Absolute Truth, so these four kinds of persons, when given the opportunity, will take shelter of the Supreme Lord. And the other four kinds of persons are called, are described in Bhagavad-gītā . . . Prabhupāda: Duṣkṛtina . Jagadīśa: Duṣkṛtina. *Hari-śauri: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. Jagadīśa: What's the first? Those who are mūḍha , foolish, grossly foolish; those who are narādhama , those who are lowest of mankind; *those who are māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā , those whose knowledge is stolen by illusion; *those, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ , those who are of the atheistic nature of demons. These four kinds of persons do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. In the purport in Bhagavad*-gītā Śrīla Prabhupāda has explained that practically 99.9% of the human population fits in these categories, will not surrender unto the Supreme Lord. Therefore the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is formed to give opportunity to those who choose to surrender to the Lord to associate with one another, to cooperate together in serving the mission of the Lord. *The material world is created for a specific purpose by the Supreme Lord. That purpose is to give a chance to the forgetful living beings who have tried to exercise independence from Kṛṣṇa to once again understand their position. They're put into various conditions of material existence in order to learn that they are not the enjoyers and controllers. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer. Param īśvara. He's the supreme controller. Everything is meant for His satisfaction. In Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa is described, describes Himself, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8) that, "All material and spiritual worlds are created by Me. Everything is emanating from Me." So created by Kṛṣṇa for His pleasure, just as a father or a man takes a wife and has children and gets a house, and he expands himself in this way for enjoyment. He tries to enjoy by expanding his influence in the material world. So this is because he's part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and he has the same tendency as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer, and He has expanded Himself in multi-energies to enjoy Himself, and the conditioned souls are also part of that multifarious energy. They are called marginal, jīva-śakti , and that means they can go one way or the other. They can choose to use their independence to please Kṛṣṇa or they can choose to use their independence otherwise. That otherwise means that they must come to the material world. That is Kṛṣṇa's purpose in creating the material world—to give a chance to these foolish living entities to revive their eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. *So within human society . . . this is also stated in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā , manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3): "Out of many thousands of men, one may endeavor for perfection. And of many such perfected men, hardly one knows Me in truth." So the material world is a very dangerous place. The living beings within the material world are kṣatram . They do not know the purpose of life. They are simply interested in their own advancement, somehow or other. So they engage in all kinds of destructive activities which cause harm to themselves and to others. So this is the condition of the material world. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda has stated that this is no place for a gentleman. In the material world everyone is, just as we are observing . . . I was visiting the Kṛṣṇa consciousness farm in British Columbia, and on the road we were passing large herds of beef cows. We were discussing that the farmer thinks of these cows not as spirit souls but as commodities. He simply puts them in a field to eat, and when they get big enough, kills them and takes the money for his enjoyment. He doesn't see that these are living entities, spirit souls. So this activity of the human beings, killing the cows, helpless cows by the thousands daily, is causing the . . . or is an indication that there is no merciful quality in the human beings. They are simply interested in their own aggrandizement and welfare. If they don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the only alternative. Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes and canvasses, and He tells the conditioned souls, "You must surrender to Me." And if one chooses not to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that means that he himself wants to become Kṛṣṇa—without any qualification. The spirit soul is infinitesimal spark of Kṛṣṇa. And that spark, when not in touch with Kṛṣṇa, the fire, becomes like the sparks of the fire not in contact with the fire: extinguished. So there is no good qualities for the living beings who are outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So the four types of men who surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they're doing so with some selfish interest. All of the conditioned souls are acting for their own selfish interest. They do not know otherwise. But somehow or other, if one of the conditioned souls will surrender to Kṛṣṇa by the grace of a pure devotee, then that immediately puts him into a situation of becoming purified. The greatest purification is to come in touch with a pure devotee of the Lord. There are many, many ritualistic activities prescribed in the Vedic literatures for gradual purification. But, as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī points out in his Upadeśāmṛta , what is the good of undergoing so much atonement and pious activity if the heart remains contaminated and the living entity remains sinful, ready to . . . just acting for his own benefit? Therefore the greatest opportunity for the conditioned soul is when he gets the chance to associate with a pure devotee of the Lord. *The pure devotee of the Lord instructs the conditioned soul to engage in activities just to please Kṛṣṇa, as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī explains. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11), without any separate interest, no mixture of jñāna or karma , no desire for sense gratification or acquisition of knowledge, just to engage in activities for the pleasure of the Supreme. This is the perfection. Otherwise, without coming in touch with a pure devotee of the Lord no one could understand this. And especially in this age of Kali, when the human society is so degraded that if it weren't for some laws prohibiting, and even despite those laws, the human beings are engaged in cut-throat activities, killing one another. Just like this abortion. Now they've passed some law which allows killing. So now it is going on, wholesale slaughtering, by mothers of their own children. This is the condition of human society. *So the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is specifically formed by Śrīla Prabhupāda to help those of us who are lost and entangled in this material condition to associate with one another under his guidance and achieve, by this process recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, chanting the holy name, we can achieve rapid purification, and in this one lifetime, Śrīla Prabhupāda has promised that we can go back to home, back to Godhead. So we should try to cooperate together. There is no other purpose. Once one comes in touch with the pure devotee and understands his message, and there's no other purpose for living in this material world than to serve the mission of the Lord. And that mission of the Lord, as already explained, is to reclaim the conditioned souls who have fallen into the material world and are lost, helplessly entrapped. So we should try and cooperate together. Learn Śrīla Prabhupāda's instructions very perfectly and try to carry them out, following the four regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds and working together to spread the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world so that its influence can affect all the living beings who are living on the face of the earth. Actually in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī has stated that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will spread all over the universe. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is undoubtedly empowered by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He's doing such wonderful service, spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over this globe, and we should pray that we can help in some small way. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya . *Prabhupāda: So I have heard that there are about fifty thousand Indians in Toronto. So why they are not coming? They want to become bara*-sāhīb only? Śubhavilāsa: Yes, they are here to make the money, that's all they are doing. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) They have no other purpose? So this is not good. What is their objection? They don't want their own culture? This is Indian culture. They should be proud that Indian culture is being accepted by the foreigners. And they are living, they are becoming bara*-sāhīb ? What is this? Now it is your duty to deliver these bara-sāhībs , that they are not taking interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hmm? No, so is there any other outsider Indian present? Indian devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Come here. But you have already joined. (laughter) Devotee: He's . . . (indistinct) . . . from Montreal. Prabhupāda: Your trick. Your trademark is there. ( tilak ) *Indian devotee: Nama oṁ viṣṇu*-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhūtale . . . Devotee: There's Gururaj. They are also chanting sixteen rounds a day now, and he's staying at the temple. Prabhupāda: So he has already joined. I mean those who have not joined. I think this gentleman? I saw him in the morning. So, Kya karan hai je hamara bhartiya log nahi aate hain. (What is the reason that our Indians are not coming?) Indian man (1): This is a very good question. Apne jo pucha . . . kyun nahi aate hain? (The question you have asked . . . why don't they come?) Prabhupāda: Ye to thik nahi hai kyunki . . . (This is not proper because . . .) this is the sign of degradation. So Indians have become so degraded, shall I take it like that? Indian man (1): No, it's not that, but there must be some other reason why they're not coming. *Prabhupāda: What is other reason? There cannot be any reason. Here is temple of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa, and the Bhagavad-gītā is being preached, Bhāgavata is being preached. Why they do not take interest? Indian man (1): I've been coming to temple for six years now here in Toronto. Prabhupāda: Well, you are coming, all right. But I have heard that there are fifty thousand Indians. So why they do not come? Indian man (1): Maybe it's catching up now, more. Prabhupāda: Is there any special reason, they can discuss with me, if one is interested. Indian man (1): Mujhe lagta hai, jaise ho sakta hai ki, jaisa hamara tarika hai ki sadkon pe jake . . ., log isse thoda ghabra jate hain. Kyunki wo sochte hain hamare upare discrimination aayegi. (I feel, it might be possible that, the system which we have of going out on the streets, people might get little nervous. They think that they might receive discrimination upon themselves.) The society here to accept this kind of thing, and people maybe don't want to align themselves with this kind of thing so that they are not ridiculed by others. This could be one of the reasons. Because, you know . . . Prabhupāda: Ridicule? Indian man (1): The method may be, they may think, maybe that it is too strong for people here to accept. Prabhupāda: No, strong, disease bhi to strong hai na. Jaisa disease vaisa davai hona chahiye. Ye jo bhagavan ko bhool jana aur sharab pina maas khana ye disease to he bhari gambhir hai.. (The disease is also strong is it not? According to the disease, the right medicine must be used. This forgetfulness of God and taking intoxicants, eating meat - this disease is very serious.) Jaya , Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): Many of them think we're fanatical, from Western countries. Prabhupāda: Many? jaya Kya karan hai bhartiya log . . . (What is the reason the Indians . . .) Indian man (2): I don't speak Hindi. I'm from South America, British Guinea. Prabhupāda: So what is the reason the Indians are not coming in large numbers? They are coming, some. Indian man (1): I think they are too much in māyā . (laughter) Indian man (2): They want to be Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (1): Everybody wants to be Kṛṣṇa themselves. Prabhupāda: Rascal. (laughter) Everyone wants to become a rascal. Don't be that. Indian man (1): Ve to inse bhi aage badh gaye hain, Americans se, unse bhi jyada khana pina shuru kar diye hain. (They have even gone ahead than the Americans, they have started to eat meat and consume alcohol more than these Americans.) Prabhupāda: Ye sab mayavadi ye log ko sikha diya sab jahanoom me jane ke liye. (All these Mayavadis have taught them to go to hell.) This is not good. Everyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa. Śubhavilāsa: Or they're seeking for Kṛṣṇa in the material world. Prabhupāda: Wo pahad utha sakta hai kya Krishna jaisa? (Can he lift the mountain like Kṛṣṇa?) As Kṛṣṇa lifted the Govardhana Hill at seven years old, so can he do that? Then how he'll become Kṛṣṇa? Simply by imagination. Kuch kar ke to dikhao. Ye sab badmaashi kharab kar diya hai Hindu society ko. (Show me by doing something. All this bullying has ruined the Hindu society. Indian man (1): There are too many sections of religion, Hindu religion. *Prabhupāda: There cannot be any section. There are two section, demons and the demigods. That is the statement in the śāstra . Dvau bhūta*-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca (BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva and āsura . Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ . So if they want to remain demons, that is their choice. But that will not help them. Indian man (1): Most fortunate men try to follow Kṛṣṇa. The unfortunate try to follow . . . Prabhupāda: So anyway, now it is Śubhavilāsa Prabhu's duty to bring these imitation Kṛṣṇas. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (3): : Many, many good bhaktas are being spoiled by impersonalists nowadays . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. You are personalist or impersonalist? He is personalist. (laughter) Hari*-nāma karo mala hai to japo. (Do harinam , if you have beads then chant.) So, another kīrtana ? (end) (Conversation in Airport and Car) (at airport; noise of airport announcements throughout) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . Chapter: *This is the dharma , and Kṛṣṇa comes personally to establish it. And He makes distinction in the Fourth Chapter, dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, abhyutthānam adharmasya (BG 4.7). He distinguishes between adharma and dharma . And He's establishing at the end of Ninth Chapter that the dharma is to become His devotee, to think of Him, to worship Him and to offer all obeisances to Him. And that persons who reject this dharma or who have no information of this dharma , they have to revolve in the cycle of birth and death, not achieving Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: The beginning is to understand this transmigration. But actually people do not understand. Cycle of birth and death . . . if one does not understand what is birth and death, what he'll understand of cycle of birth and death? Mostly because they do not understand what is birth and what is death, they are mostly going on on the bodily concept of life. That is animal life. Ask anybody. Bodily concept. And everything is going on. We pass through Canada to USA. Why Canada? Why USA? This bodily concept. It is meant for the Canadians, it is meant for USA, Americans. Immigration, customs—the same mentality as a dog coming from other neighborhood. The other dogs, they all come together, " Yow, yow! Why you have come? Why you have come?" In civilized dress only. This is the position. What is the difference between the dog's mentality . . . when another dog comes to another neighborhood, these neighborhood dogs, you know that? All animals, " Yow! Why you have come?" So this department, "Why you have come here?" dogs barking, and this immigration, what is the difference? Is there any difference? Devotee: There is no difference. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) This is our policy. Very difficult. (break) . . . they will understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Their mentality is not better than the animals. Hari-śauri: It's probably a lot worse. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Worse, because animal has got some limit, but a human being who has developed consciousness, it is unlimited. Just like a thief is thief, but when an attorney*-in-law is a thief, he's a very big thief. Huh? (airport announcement) Hari-śauri: When a man's educated to know the difference . . . Prabhupāda: Ordinary thief and a educated thief. In your country there are many lawyers. Their only business is how to cheat. Hari-śauri: Every lawyer. Because they're trying to make money as well, only they're in a better position. Prabhupāda: Big, big lawyers, through this real estatement. I have got bitter experience. People go to real estate man, he has got, say, five thousand dollars, and he wants to purchase one hundred thousand worth property. And they'll say: "Yes. We shall arrange." He will, in such a way, implicate, that he will take this five thousand dollars, and it will be divided amongst them. He will not give anything. Hari-śauri: We lost quite a bit of property in Detroit because of that lawyer of Ambarīṣa's. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: That lawyer of Ambarīṣa's, when they did the Detroit deal, they said they lost quite a bit of movable property because the lawyer did a deal with the real estate agent to take it away for himself. He got that boat very cheap, and other things also. Prabhupāda: Lawyer is thief, medical man is thief. Hari-śauri: All thieves. They're all thieves. Prabhupāda: Then whom to believe? Whom to believe, this is the question. Hari-śauri: The general public, they are becoming very bitter, very frustrated, because they can't turn to anyone for protection anymore. The government is the biggest thief. *Prabhupāda: Dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ . It is stated that all government men will be rogues and thieves. Rājanyair dasyu-dharmabhiḥ (SB 12.2.8). Rājanyaiḥ means government men, and dasyu-dharma means practiced to roguery, thieves. Hari-śauri: In America police are well known for being corrupt. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. In India. Police means everyone takes, first of all . . . (indistinct) Viśvakarmā: They can be saved only by your mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and the mercy of Lord Caitanya. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa only you are saved. Otherwise, our Bombay construction was rejected by the police constable that, " Kīrtana is nuisance." Public servant, he can say, blaspheme a religious system, Bhagavad*-gītā , in the same country, Bhagavad-gītā . And India is condemning now, government men, " Kīrtana is nuisance." Hari-śauri: Temporarily, at least, it seems the demons are very powerful. Prabhupāda: They will become powerful. And people will be less intelligent—means less God conscious. Just like when the king is weak, thieves and rogues, they flourish. Hari-śauri: So we just have to be very strong and uncompromising. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: We just have to be very strong and uncompromising. Prabhupāda: How you can compromise with thieves and rogues? (pause) Prabhupāda: Boarding time? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The flight leaves at 5:05. They'll call. They'll call when it's time. The plane doesn't appear to be here just yet. Devotee: 4.45 it's due in. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . pieces cloth. Although they are poor, still they can understand it very easily, very easily, that you are not this body; there is God; if you don't become devotee, you'll remain in this material . . . these things they will immediately understand. Hari-śauri: How is it that, say . . . obviously they must be backed by very great pious activity, but somehow or other, they . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore they have taken birth in India. Hari-śauri: Is that special mercy, that they seem to be impoverished? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Is that special arrangement that they seem to be impoverished? Say like the villagers, they're not very wealthy, or, uh . . . Prabhupāda: That is due to misgovernment. There is no king; all rogues and thieves are in the government. Mismanagement. It is the government duty to see that everyone is doing nicely so that they can live peacefully, happily. There must be direction. Just like parentless children. Nobody is to take care; they'll be wretched. So India's position is like that—the parentless children. There is no good government. And they supply this control wheat that is not even touchable. Unfit for human consumption. There is a worm . . . Hari-śauri: Control wheat? Prabhupāda: Yes. They purchase from here and there all rejected wheat, and they supply it. There is no ghee, no milk, no proper food grain. Everything black market. Any necessary commodity you cannot have in the open market; you have to purchase in black market. Just like for the building purpose, cement. In your country you can purchase any amount of it. You cannot purchase. You have to purchase black market, and that cement also mixed with some . . . what is that? Hari-śauri: Mixed with . . . (indistinct) . . . or something. Prabhupāda: And unless you give some bribe, it is not possible. (break) Viśvakarmā: . . . for the balcony in the church in the other room? The vyāsāsana . (indistinct—announcement being made) Prabhupāda: . . . fit for sitting. That is very nice. And next time when I come the seat should be just Deity altar, so that all balcony can see. Viśvakarmā: Seat should be . . .? Prabhupāda: My seat should be near the altar of the Deity. *Hari-śauri: The vyāsāsana . Like in Los Angeles, at the side? On the left*-hand side? *Prabhupāda: Not left*-hand side. Just like you are facing Deity and there are spaces here. Viśvakarmā: Between the doors. Prabhupāda: Yes. Viśvakarmā: Which side, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Viśvakarmā: Which side . . . on the left*-hand side or the right-hand side of the Deity, facing towards the altar? Prabhupāda: Any side. Viśvakarmā: Any side? How far away from the front? In the middle, so that they can see from the balcony as well. Prabhupāda: Yes. (child calls out) "Prabhupāda"? No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sounded like it. Hari-śauri: Sounded like it. I don't think it could have been, though. Not a devotee. Prabhupāda: Child is . . . Devotee: Could be Buffalo. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, it's not. I see the child. Devotee: He'll have the same benediction as Ajāmila. (child calls out "Prabhupāda") Prabhupāda: He knows me. (laughs) (break) Devotee: Should there be a canopy over top of the vyāsāsana ? Prabhupāda: No, no canopy. (break) . . . to fly to our New Vrindavan? How long it takes? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I asked Kīrtanānanda. He said about one hour, twenty, twenty*-five minutes. (break) (in car after arrival) Prabhupāda: Let us see what is the reception. (break) We have come from a different way. From Buffalo. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, you had to come from Buffalo. (break) . . . take to get to Buffalo? Prabhupāda: Three hours. Hari-śauri: No, only about an hour and a half. Prabhupāda: Hour and half? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, no, from . . . Kīrtanānanda: To the airport from Toronto? Hari-śauri: From leaving Toronto, we left one o'clock, and we arrived at . . . it was about two hours. We arrived just after three. Kīrtanānanda: Some devotees were there from Buffalo? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . had a very nice place for you. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (break) People are being kept in such an ignorant way that they do not care about sinful activities. They can do anything for sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Actually, there is no advancement of civilization. They are thinking they are running on four*-wheel motorcar, and the dog is running on four legs. What is the quality change? This is going on in the name of civilization, and people are kept in ignorance. Where is the advancement? Running by motorcar is advancement? They have no knowledge that there is next life, and "Today I am running on Ford car, tomorrow I may have to run like dog on four legs." Kīrtanānanda: They do not think like that. *Prabhupāda: So this is ignorance, this is ignorance. And they are kept, the whole world—the state, the father, the guardian, everyone, the priest . . . (indistinct) . . . knowledge. Dull*-headed, ignorant. And they are passing on as philosopher, scientist, religious leader. (break) . . . hard to bring them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Taking these few years, fifty years or sixty years living here, and dance like dog and finish. There is no life. You die peacefully or . . . (indistinct) . . . and not dying peacefully, they cry. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: How to save them is very difficult. Prabhupāda: Simply chant. This is the only. Give them chance to come and chant with us, take prasādam . Then after few days or few months, let them understand the philosophy. Kīrtanānanda: We have all got this experience. Prabhupāda: You have all got this experience. This is the only way. I started this movement on this determination that, "They have nothing to give. Simply by propaganda they are exacting so many people and befooling them. And I'll give them prasādam , nice chanting, and they will not come? They must come." This was my determination. And I began with this. Kīrtanānanda: I remember. *Prabhupāda: So this is the only way. Give them chance, "No talk, please come. Chant and dance with us and take kṛṣṇa*-prasāda and go home." Kīrtanānanda: I think it was just ten years ago when I first met you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: This month. *Prabhupāda: I never said that "You have to give up this, you have to do this, you have to . . ." Never said it. Then gradually, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). When the heart becomes cleansed, then little . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no hopelessness. Because so many people have come, and they are coming. Both black, white, everyone is coming. There is no question of . . . (indistinct) . . . but you cannot expect that cent percent people will come. That is not possible. But even, even one-fourth percent people will come to this, then it will be successful. Compared to the American population, what percentage we have got? Still we have made some impression, the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Literatures are selling, they are appreciating, learned circle. Takes some time, but if we stick to our principles and do not make any compromise and push on—in this way, as I have given you instruction—it will never stop; *it will go on. It will never stop. At least for ten thousand years it will go on. That is in your . . . (indistinct) . . . and this movement is meant for these fourth*-class, fifth-class, tenth-class men. Not this movement is fourth class, fifth class. They are so fallen that they cannot be counted even third class, fourth class—tenth class of men. Deliver them. Patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's incarnation is for delivering these classes of men. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never meant to start this movement for high-class brāhmaṇas , sages, saintly persons—no. This class of men. For the all fallen. Kali-yuga, all fallen. Don't be disappointed. Go on, go on. Stick to the principles. When there was no response, I did not know where to live, where to eat. Sometimes with Dr. Mishra, sometimes with some friend somewhere. Where to live? And I was going to inquire the shipping company when the next ship returning to India. Still I was renewing my visa, "Let us hope. Let us hope." In this way, we started Second Avenue in month of July, I think? Kīrtanānanda: June or July. June or July, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, June or July. Yes, June. Kīrtanānanda: I think it was June. Prabhupāda: Then Hayagrīva and Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, they came first. Before that, Mukunda came. Hari-śauri: He's the oldest devotee? Mukunda? He's the oldest devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. There were others; they have left. That Mr. Green. Kīrtanānanda: Jagannātha dāsa. I think you named him Jagannātha. *Prabhupāda: And Ravīndra*-svarūpa. Kīrtanānanda: Another one, Carl, Carl. Prabhupāda: Carl, yes. He has left. To Washington directly? This road? Kīrtanānanda: Not Washington, D.C. This is Washington, Pennsylvania. Prabhupāda: This is Pennsylvania state? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. The girls were saying that today at the airport was the most demoniac day they ever had. Prabhupāda: Eh? Kīrtanānanda: Today was the most demoniac day at the airport they've ever had. They're getting very, very nasty. Every time they talked to someone, they come up and they say: "Don't take it. Don't take it. They're ripping you off. They're 'Moon' people," like that. Prabhupāda: "Moon people"? What is that? *Kīrtanānanda: You know there's a lot of publicity right now about this Korean so*-called spiritual master, Moon. Hari-śauri: We just read one article in the U.S. News , shows a picture, that man it describes. Kīrtanānanda: It is causing a big stir, these "Moon" people. He has just bought the hotel in New York for five million dollars. Prabhupāda: He is also against our movement? Kīrtanānanda: Well, I wouldn't say . . . he never says anything about our movement . . . (indistinct) . . . but they are equating us with him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ah. Kīrtanānanda: The public is sometimes equating us with him and these other rascals. He claims that Jesus Christ never lived to fulfill his mission, which was to establish the perfect family. They killed him before he got married. So he has come, and he has all these wives. At least, he used to . . . always, whenever any of his disciples would get married, first he would have their wife. Prabhupāda: And they're doing that? (laughs) Kīrtanānanda: People cannot distinguish between what is true and what is bogus. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . sophistication. (break) . . . reminds me of a place in Germany. Heidelberg. Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like New Vrindavan? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, you'll find so many places in this country named . . . this probably was originally a settlement of German people from Heidelburg. (break) I don't know. It was a chemical plant. *Prabhupāda: Oh. These things are not required at all, but they have created. They are called anartha , unnecessarily diverting valuable attention of the human being to waste their time and energy and next life become a dog. That they do not know. This science is unknown to them. They'll believe, "This life finished, everything finished." That's all. (break) . . . is working. That they do not know. Life is eternal, and how we are under this cycle of birth and death, nothing. Yāvad jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet . Cārvāka Muni's philosophy. "So long you live, live happily." But actually they are not living happily. To work in this factory is not happy. He has got suffering. But they are thinking they are happy. Just like the hog eating stool, he is happy. This is gross ignorance. Actually, therefore, there is revolt against these capitalist. There is another unhappiness. Now there is strike. So where is happiness? If there is happiness, why there is strike? Why there is so many strikes? Why there is protest? There is no happiness, but they are thinking it is happiness. Whole thing is based on ignorance, māyā . Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje. And the direct method for subduing these anarthas, unnecessary troubles— bhakti-yoga . There is no other way. Only bhakti-yoga . Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasya ajānataḥ (SB 1.7.6). People do not know it. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Therefore Vyāsadeva, most learned scholar, he has made this Bhāgavatam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣāt. (break) I was translating the Bhāgavatam , Eighth Canto, Twelfth Chapter. Hari-śauri: How many chapters is there? *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-four. Twenty-four. Half finished. Half finished, Eighth Canto. Kīrtanānanda: What is Eighth Canto like? What does Eighth Canto contain? Prabhupāda: Eighth Canto? There is churning of the ocean and producing nectar, and the demons, they did not receive the nectar. There was fight. Hari-śauri: And the story of Gajendra, as well? Prabhupāda: Gajendra, that is I think Seventh Canto, no? Hari-śauri: Beginning of the Eighth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gajendra also. Hari-śauri: That means four parts. That means four books for the Eighth Canto. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: Each volume is more wonderful. Each volume . . . Prabhupāda: Ah? Oh, yes. There is no comparison of this literature. Kīrtanānanda: I think before you came, *Bhāgavatam* was unknown. Prabhupāda: Unknown, yes. The Ramakrishna Mission published one *Bhāgavatam* commentary. You know that? Farce. They, these Ramakrishna Mission people, have done the greatest harm to the Vedic culture . . . (indistinct) . . . of course, it is not taken very seriously, Ramakrishna Mission. Hari-śauri: Not in the West. Prabhupāda: But they publicized in India that they have all, everyone, become . . . (indistinct) . . . in India they were doing like that, "Vivekananda Road," "Vivekananda Square," and rascals, they do not inquire even what is Vivekananda's contribution. Pradulika prabhāva. Hari-śauri: You made a good point about why, although now thousands of American boys and girls are coming to India, no one is going to the Ramakrishna Mission, so what kind of impact has he had? Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana they have got hospital and Ramakrishna temple. Who is going there? This is practical example. In our temple, thousands and thousands of the foreign boys and girls are coming, and who is going there? If it was actually they did something, they should at least have gone there out of inquisitiveness: "Oh, where is Vivekananda?" Nobody goes there. Not even to pass urine there. (laughter) (break) Kīrtanānanda: That Japanese tape recorder. Prabhupāda: And Hichai is . . . this is called hitchhike? Hari-śauri: Hitchhike. *Prabhupāda: That is "hitchhike," and this is Hitch*-hi. Hari-śauri: Hitachi. Prabhupāda: Hitachi, yes. This is a church? Kīrtanānanda: No, this is an institution, state institution for old people or mental home. I forget. "Western State School." (break) Prabhupāda: . . . Hayagrīva. Kīrtanānanda: I think he's in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Kīrtanānanda: I'm trying to get him to bring his boy to New Vrindavan. He's down there with those meat*-eaters. Prabhupāda: She is not agreeable? I think that she is not very well treated by her husband. Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Therefore . . . otherwise, she is a good girl. Kīrtanānanda: Hayagrīva's very . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I know she is good girl. He has disrupted his family also. Kīrtanānanda: If a devotee doesn't follow the principles, then he is sure to suffer. Nothing can be good in his family life. Prabhupāda: I thought that he is happy in family life. His father and mother came to congratulate him. Kīrtanānanda: He was better shape when I saw him last week than I've seen him in a long time. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: He was better in Los Angeles when I saw him last week than I've seen him in a long time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: He never lost his sentiment for you. Prabhupāda: No, that I know. Therefore I like. Kīrtanānanda: But he's addicted to his bad habits. Prabhupāda: He'll be corrected. There is no hopelessness. Kīrtanānanda: I've always felt that, but it makes it difficult to live with him in the meantime. (Prabhupāda laughs) Prabhupāda: Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). Is that railway line? No. (break) There are some roads, large size roads, Los Angeles. That is America everywhere. Kīrtanānanda: Big cars and big roads. Prabhupāda: Opulence. Hari-śauri: America seems to be one big highway. Prabhupāda: They have got cars and they have got roads also. Very good. That's all right. But why they should give up the real business of life? Hari-śauri: I don't think it's so much that they gave it up, they didn't ever know what it was. Prabhupāda: There was no preaching. There was no education on this subject. The Christian priests, they are unable to . . . Kīrtanānanda: They have no knowledge themselves. How they can teach? Hari-śauri: They are all giving up out of hopelessness themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are now asking . . . in Melbourne the priest asked me, "Swāmījī, why Christian religion is dwindling? What we have done?" I told them, "What you have not done?" (laughs) They were little insulted. Hari-śauri: That first time you visited that monastery, the man that was in charge, the head monk there, after you had visited, a short while later he left and he went to India, looking for enlightenment. Prabhupāda: Perhaps he got some shock when I said that, "What you have not done?" They received me very well. (break) *Kīrtanānanda: Altogether about an hour and half. About forty*-five minutes more. Prabhupāda: What is being done with Hayagrīva's house? Kīrtanānanda: I bought that from him. There are a few devotees there right now. Prabhupāda: No, the other house. Kīrtanānanda: Which one? Up at the original farm? Prabhupāda: No, not original. Kīrtanānanda: That's the one I'm talking about. Prabhupāda: Tulasī ? Kīrtanānanda: No, they're just wild flowers. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Hari-śauri: Very fragrant. Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) (break) Kīrtanānanda: (Prabhupāda is taking prasādam ) There's plenty of milk and ghee. Prabhupāda: This is human food. They do not know how to eat, the Westerners. (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . ever eat these nice foods they give up so much sinful activity, very easily. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: By just eating nice foods they can give up so much sinful activity. Prabhupāda: Who has made them? Kīrtanānanda: Different devotees—mother Lakhimā, mother . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Combined effort. Kīrtanānanda: Tamāla said this is the only place in the US now they have Vedic cooking. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . facility to get enough ghee. They have got the chance. Hari-śauri: Fresh vegetables, everything. (break) Kīrtanānanda: Feast? Yes. Prabhupāda: What did they say after eating these things? (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . Indians come and they always say, "Who has taught you to cook like this?" We tell them, "Śrīla Prabhupāda has taught us everything." Prabhupāda: At this 26 Second Avenue, Acyutānanda Mahārāja . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Many Indians come? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. (break) . . . membership program now. Hari-śauri: There were about three or four hundred Indians came to the feast yesterday. No, not yesterday; on Sunday. Prabhupāda: Six hundred. Hari-śauri: Six hundred. Kīrtanānanda: In Toronto? Hari-śauri: Yes, very big turnout. Big turnout also in Detroit. Same in Detroit. I never realized there were so many Indians all over the world. Prabhupāda: Generally, they are engaged in education. Hari-śauri: I know in England they all have responsible jobs. Doctors and like that. Prabhupāda: There are many medical practitioners, Indians. I have . . . I learned that British people, they like Indian physicians. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, they're very popular. Prabhupāda: They have got faith that these people treat carefully. One civil surgeon is a Bengali in London. Civil surgeon. You have heard this Aurobindo? His father was a medical practitioner in England, and he was born there. Hari-śauri: His mother was Indian also or . . .? No. (break) Prabhupāda: Indian families, they are living for two, three generation. (break) . . . teaching them how to make home comfortable, they'll be trained up to become prostitutes. How to kill time. (break) Hari-śauri: I think Tamāla was saying in New York they need good cooks there. Tamāla was saying that in New York they don't have very good cooks there. Prabhupāda: Nowhere there is good cook except here. (laughter) Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is good cook. Hari-śauri: He's trained everybody up very nicely. Kīrtanānanda: Prabhupāda knows how to flatter. Well, I think even we could not cook so good in Boston or New York. Without being in Vrindaban and the natural ingredients, it is not so . . . Prabhupāda: You can supply them ghee. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, we can do that. (break) Prabhupāda: You grow podina ? Podina ? Mint? Mint? Kīrtanānanda: Mint? Yes. Prabhupāda: Chutney. Kīrtanānanda: Mint chutney. How do you make mint chutney? Prabhupāda: I'll teach you. You have got mango? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: I'll teach you. Chili? Kīrtanānanda: They are not ripe yet. The plants are still too small for this year. Prabhupāda: They are not giving chili? Kīrtanānanda: Not yet. It is too early. In August. But I can get. I can get green chili. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . something to drink? Kīrtanānanda: No. Hari-śauri: I don't know what happened to that orange juice. Someone else was carrying it. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . because it is so nice. Kīrtanānanda: That is your mercy. Prabhupāda: So this was my dream, that a place should be there where we can get all nice foods, best foods, of milk. Kṛṣṇa is fulfilling that desire. Everything's there. Simply these rascals, they do not know how to live or to eat. Everything there. Intelligence is there, everything is there. Simply for want of training they have become rogues. Make them human beings, your countrymen. Everyone should follow the duty, materially and spiritually. Anyway . . . here is very nice here, this climate. It is a winter season of . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) These months, June, July, August, up to September? Kīrtanānanda: No, actually up to November. The devotees like the winter, though. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kīrtanānanda: It is even more conducive to think of Kṛṣṇa in the winter. Prabhupāda: So the neighborers, they like it? Neighborhood men? Kīrtanānanda: Most of them like us. There are a few that don't like us. But they are not violent. They are a little nasty. Prabhupāda: Nasty they have been trained up to be. (Sanskrit) Once trained up nastily, it is very difficult to . . . Kīrtanānanda: The state police in this local area has become very favorable to us. During that quarantine the state police had to stay there. So they even began to come to ārati . They took our books; they were reading but there's been a lot of change in some of the government. Some of the government men are now much favorable, more understanding. Prabhupāda: Whatever was there, it was due to misunderstanding. Kīrtanānanda: The sheriff is very favorable to us. Prabhupāda: Eh? Kīrtanānanda: The sheriff is very favorable, the judge. That judge that came to see you last time you were here, he still keeps a picture of you in his desk. Prabhupāda: Oh. Kīrtanānanda: When the palace is finished we will have nice ceremonies, and many of the local dignitaries will come. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . begins? Kīrtanānanda: Moundsville is that way about five miles. We are almost to New Vrindavan now. Two miles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Our post office is Moundsville. Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Do you want to go directly to your quarters, or do you want to stop by the temple? Prabhupāda: Yes, temple. Deities open? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then . . . (break) Actually it is gradually expanding in these quarters. (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . be on local television soon. That will be very good propaganda for us. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is shown? Or no, not yet. Kīrtanānanda: Not yet. Prabhupāda: One thing you have missed: how we are preparing all these foodstuff. Kīrtanānanda: It was too short. In the movie? It was too short how to prepare it? Prabhupāda: Yes. How from milk in different stages you get this foodstuff, kachorīs, siṅgāra, sandeśa, rābṛi . And this chānā , if fried, if you prepare nicely with little hing and ginger, then it will exactly taste like meat. They'll forget. If you give them without telling them, they will think that they're eating meat. Kīrtanānanda: Hing and what? Prepare with hing and . . .? Prabhupāda: Ginger. Kīrtanānanda: Ginger. Prabhupāda: They prepare the semiliquid meat like that. You give them little piece and they will not understand that it is not meat. (laughs) Hari-śauri: When we were in Los Angeles, Pālikā made some barā and it tasted . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja wouldn't eat it. He said it tasted too much like fish. Prabhupāda: With urad ḍāl , you can prepare fishy taste. Hari-śauri: Someone told me that your Guru Mahārāja said that . . . Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Anyone who is not taking urad ḍāl , he must be taking fish silently, secretly. (break) Kīrtanānanda: Not on this side, other side. I want to buy that farm there. Prabhupāda: This barn, Vrindaban. What is this building? Kīrtanānanda: They are constructing a . . . I have a big carpenter shop, a construction shop, a printing shop. And upstairs there will be a big hall for Janmāṣṭamī that holds seven, eight hundred people. There is another . . . that's our guesthouse building we're building there. You can see the top two floors, with the arches. Prabhupāda: What is this? Another barn? Kīrtanānanda: This is an ox barn here. Prabhupāda: No, this. Kīrtanānanda: That tank? That tank we are making for grain storage. Prabhupāda: Oh, much improvement. (end) (Conversation in Airport and Car) (at airport; noise of airport announcements throughout) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . Chapter: *This is the dharma , and Kṛṣṇa comes personally to establish it. And He makes distinction in the Fourth Chapter, dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, abhyutthānam adharmasya (BG 4.7). He distinguishes between adharma and dharma . And He's establishing at the end of Ninth Chapter that the dharma is to become His devotee, to think of Him, to worship Him and to offer all obeisances to Him. And that persons who reject this dharma or who have no information of this dharma , they have to revolve in the cycle of birth and death, not achieving Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: The beginning is to understand this transmigration. But actually people do not understand. Cycle of birth and death . . . if one does not understand what is birth and death, what he'll understand of cycle of birth and death? Mostly because they do not understand what is birth and what is death, they are mostly going on on the bodily concept of life. That is animal life. Ask anybody. Bodily concept. And everything is going on. We pass through Canada to USA. Why Canada? Why USA? This bodily concept. It is meant for the Canadians, it is meant for USA, Americans. Immigration, customs—the same mentality as a dog coming from other neighborhood. The other dogs, they all come together, " Yow, yow! Why you have come? Why you have come?" In civilized dress only. This is the position. What is the difference between the dog's mentality . . . when another dog comes to another neighborhood, these neighborhood dogs, you know that? All animals, " Yow! Why you have come?" So this department, "Why you have come here?" dogs barking, and this immigration, what is the difference? Is there any difference? Devotee: There is no difference. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) This is our policy. Very difficult. (break) . . . they will understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Their mentality is not better than the animals. Hari-śauri: It's probably a lot worse. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Worse, because animal has got some limit, but a human being who has developed consciousness, it is unlimited. Just like a thief is thief, but when an attorney*-in-law is a thief, he's a very big thief. Huh? (airport announcement) Hari-śauri: When a man's educated to know the difference . . . Prabhupāda: Ordinary thief and a educated thief. In your country there are many lawyers. Their only business is how to cheat. Hari-śauri: Every lawyer. Because they're trying to make money as well, only they're in a better position. Prabhupāda: Big, big lawyers, through this real estatement. I have got bitter experience. People go to real estate man, he has got, say, five thousand dollars, and he wants to purchase one hundred thousand worth property. And they'll say: "Yes. We shall arrange." He will, in such a way, implicate, that he will take this five thousand dollars, and it will be divided amongst them. He will not give anything. Hari-śauri: We lost quite a bit of property in Detroit because of that lawyer of Ambarīṣa's. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: That lawyer of Ambarīṣa's, when they did the Detroit deal, they said they lost quite a bit of movable property because the lawyer did a deal with the real estate agent to take it away for himself. He got that boat very cheap, and other things also. Prabhupāda: Lawyer is thief, medical man is thief. Hari-śauri: All thieves. They're all thieves. Prabhupāda: Then whom to believe? Whom to believe, this is the question. Hari-śauri: The general public, they are becoming very bitter, very frustrated, because they can't turn to anyone for protection anymore. The government is the biggest thief. *Prabhupāda: Dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ . It is stated that all government men will be rogues and thieves. Rājanyair dasyu-dharmabhiḥ (SB 12.2.8). Rājanyaiḥ means government men, and dasyu-dharma means practiced to roguery, thieves. Hari-śauri: In America police are well known for being corrupt. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. In India. Police means everyone takes, first of all . . . (indistinct) Viśvakarmā: They can be saved only by your mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and the mercy of Lord Caitanya. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa only you are saved. Otherwise, our Bombay construction was rejected by the police constable that, " Kīrtana is nuisance." Public servant, he can say, blaspheme a religious system, Bhagavad*-gītā , in the same country, Bhagavad-gītā . And India is condemning now, government men, " Kīrtana is nuisance." Hari-śauri: Temporarily, at least, it seems the demons are very powerful. Prabhupāda: They will become powerful. And people will be less intelligent—means less God conscious. Just like when the king is weak, thieves and rogues, they flourish. Hari-śauri: So we just have to be very strong and uncompromising. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: We just have to be very strong and uncompromising. Prabhupāda: How you can compromise with thieves and rogues? (pause) Prabhupāda: Boarding time? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The flight leaves at 5:05. They'll call. They'll call when it's time. The plane doesn't appear to be here just yet. Devotee: 4.45 it's due in. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . pieces cloth. Although they are poor, still they can understand it very easily, very easily, that you are not this body; there is God; if you don't become devotee, you'll remain in this material . . . these things they will immediately understand. Hari-śauri: How is it that, say . . . obviously they must be backed by very great pious activity, but somehow or other, they . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore they have taken birth in India. Hari-śauri: Is that special mercy, that they seem to be impoverished? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Is that special arrangement that they seem to be impoverished? Say like the villagers, they're not very wealthy, or, uh . . . Prabhupāda: That is due to misgovernment. There is no king; all rogues and thieves are in the government. Mismanagement. It is the government duty to see that everyone is doing nicely so that they can live peacefully, happily. There must be direction. Just like parentless children. Nobody is to take care; they'll be wretched. So India's position is like that—the parentless children. There is no good government. And they supply this control wheat that is not even touchable. Unfit for human consumption. There is a worm . . . Hari-śauri: Control wheat? Prabhupāda: Yes. They purchase from here and there all rejected wheat, and they supply it. There is no ghee, no milk, no proper food grain. Everything black market. Any necessary commodity you cannot have in the open market; you have to purchase in black market. Just like for the building purpose, cement. In your country you can purchase any amount of it. You cannot purchase. You have to purchase black market, and that cement also mixed with some . . . what is that? Hari-śauri: Mixed with . . . (indistinct) . . . or something. Prabhupāda: And unless you give some bribe, it is not possible. (break) Viśvakarmā: . . . for the balcony in the church in the other room? The vyāsāsana . (indistinct—announcement being made) Prabhupāda: . . . fit for sitting. That is very nice. And next time when I come the seat should be just Deity altar, so that all balcony can see. Viśvakarmā: Seat should be . . .? Prabhupāda: My seat should be near the altar of the Deity. *Hari-śauri: The vyāsāsana . Like in Los Angeles, at the side? On the left*-hand side? *Prabhupāda: Not left*-hand side. Just like you are facing Deity and there are spaces here. Viśvakarmā: Between the doors. Prabhupāda: Yes. Viśvakarmā: Which side, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Viśvakarmā: Which side . . . on the left*-hand side or the right-hand side of the Deity, facing towards the altar? Prabhupāda: Any side. Viśvakarmā: Any side? How far away from the front? In the middle, so that they can see from the balcony as well. Prabhupāda: Yes. (child calls out) "Prabhupāda"? No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sounded like it. Hari-śauri: Sounded like it. I don't think it could have been, though. Not a devotee. Prabhupāda: Child is . . . Devotee: Could be Buffalo. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, it's not. I see the child. Devotee: He'll have the same benediction as Ajāmila. (child calls out "Prabhupāda") Prabhupāda: He knows me. (laughs) (break) Devotee: Should there be a canopy over top of the vyāsāsana ? Prabhupāda: No, no canopy. (break) . . . to fly to our New Vrindavan? How long it takes? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I asked Kīrtanānanda. He said about one hour, twenty, twenty*-five minutes. (break) (in car after arrival) Prabhupāda: Let us see what is the reception. (break) We have come from a different way. From Buffalo. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, you had to come from Buffalo. (break) . . . take to get to Buffalo? Prabhupāda: Three hours. Hari-śauri: No, only about an hour and a half. Prabhupāda: Hour and half? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, no, from . . . Kīrtanānanda: To the airport from Toronto? Hari-śauri: From leaving Toronto, we left one o'clock, and we arrived at . . . it was about two hours. We arrived just after three. Kīrtanānanda: Some devotees were there from Buffalo? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . had a very nice place for you. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (break) People are being kept in such an ignorant way that they do not care about sinful activities. They can do anything for sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Actually, there is no advancement of civilization. They are thinking they are running on four*-wheel motorcar, and the dog is running on four legs. What is the quality change? This is going on in the name of civilization, and people are kept in ignorance. Where is the advancement? Running by motorcar is advancement? They have no knowledge that there is next life, and "Today I am running on Ford car, tomorrow I may have to run like dog on four legs." Kīrtanānanda: They do not think like that. *Prabhupāda: So this is ignorance, this is ignorance. And they are kept, the whole world—the state, the father, the guardian, everyone, the priest . . . (indistinct) . . . knowledge. Dull*-headed, ignorant. And they are passing on as philosopher, scientist, religious leader. (break) . . . hard to bring them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Taking these few years, fifty years or sixty years living here, and dance like dog and finish. There is no life. You die peacefully or . . . (indistinct) . . . and not dying peacefully, they cry. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: How to save them is very difficult. Prabhupāda: Simply chant. This is the only. Give them chance to come and chant with us, take prasādam . Then after few days or few months, let them understand the philosophy. Kīrtanānanda: We have all got this experience. Prabhupāda: You have all got this experience. This is the only way. I started this movement on this determination that, "They have nothing to give. Simply by propaganda they are exacting so many people and befooling them. And I'll give them prasādam , nice chanting, and they will not come? They must come." This was my determination. And I began with this. Kīrtanānanda: I remember. *Prabhupāda: So this is the only way. Give them chance, "No talk, please come. Chant and dance with us and take kṛṣṇa*-prasāda and go home." Kīrtanānanda: I think it was just ten years ago when I first met you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: This month. *Prabhupāda: I never said that "You have to give up this, you have to do this, you have to . . ." Never said it. Then gradually, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). When the heart becomes cleansed, then little . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no hopelessness. Because so many people have come, and they are coming. Both black, white, everyone is coming. There is no question of . . . (indistinct) . . . but you cannot expect that cent percent people will come. That is not possible. But even, even one-fourth percent people will come to this, then it will be successful. Compared to the American population, what percentage we have got? Still we have made some impression, the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Literatures are selling, they are appreciating, learned circle. Takes some time, but if we stick to our principles and do not make any compromise and push on—in this way, as I have given you instruction—it will never stop; *it will go on. It will never stop. At least for ten thousand years it will go on. That is in your . . . (indistinct) . . . and this movement is meant for these fourth*-class, fifth-class, tenth-class men. Not this movement is fourth class, fifth class. They are so fallen that they cannot be counted even third class, fourth class—tenth class of men. Deliver them. Patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's incarnation is for delivering these classes of men. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never meant to start this movement for high-class brāhmaṇas , sages, saintly persons—no. This class of men. For the all fallen. Kali-yuga, all fallen. Don't be disappointed. Go on, go on. Stick to the principles. When there was no response, I did not know where to live, where to eat. Sometimes with Dr. Mishra, sometimes with some friend somewhere. Where to live? And I was going to inquire the shipping company when the next ship returning to India. Still I was renewing my visa, "Let us hope. Let us hope." In this way, we started Second Avenue in month of July, I think? Kīrtanānanda: June or July. June or July, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, June or July. Yes, June. Kīrtanānanda: I think it was June. Prabhupāda: Then Hayagrīva and Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, they came first. Before that, Mukunda came. Hari-śauri: He's the oldest devotee? Mukunda? He's the oldest devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. There were others; they have left. That Mr. Green. Kīrtanānanda: Jagannātha dāsa. I think you named him Jagannātha. *Prabhupāda: And Ravīndra*-svarūpa. Kīrtanānanda: Another one, Carl, Carl. Prabhupāda: Carl, yes. He has left. To Washington directly? This road? Kīrtanānanda: Not Washington, D.C. This is Washington, Pennsylvania. Prabhupāda: This is Pennsylvania state? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. The girls were saying that today at the airport was the most demoniac day they ever had. Prabhupāda: Eh? Kīrtanānanda: Today was the most demoniac day at the airport they've ever had. They're getting very, very nasty. Every time they talked to someone, they come up and they say: "Don't take it. Don't take it. They're ripping you off. They're 'Moon' people," like that. Prabhupāda: "Moon people"? What is that? *Kīrtanānanda: You know there's a lot of publicity right now about this Korean so*-called spiritual master, Moon. Hari-śauri: We just read one article in the U.S. News , shows a picture, that man it describes. Kīrtanānanda: It is causing a big stir, these "Moon" people. He has just bought the hotel in New York for five million dollars. Prabhupāda: He is also against our movement? Kīrtanānanda: Well, I wouldn't say . . . he never says anything about our movement . . . (indistinct) . . . but they are equating us with him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ah. Kīrtanānanda: The public is sometimes equating us with him and these other rascals. He claims that Jesus Christ never lived to fulfill his mission, which was to establish the perfect family. They killed him before he got married. So he has come, and he has all these wives. At least, he used to . . . always, whenever any of his disciples would get married, first he would have their wife. Prabhupāda: And they're doing that? (laughs) Kīrtanānanda: People cannot distinguish between what is true and what is bogus. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . sophistication. (break) . . . reminds me of a place in Germany. Heidelberg. Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like New Vrindavan? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, you'll find so many places in this country named . . . this probably was originally a settlement of German people from Heidelburg. (break) I don't know. It was a chemical plant. *Prabhupāda: Oh. These things are not required at all, but they have created. They are called anartha , unnecessarily diverting valuable attention of the human being to waste their time and energy and next life become a dog. That they do not know. This science is unknown to them. They'll believe, "This life finished, everything finished." That's all. (break) . . . is working. That they do not know. Life is eternal, and how we are under this cycle of birth and death, nothing. Yāvad jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet . Cārvāka Muni's philosophy. "So long you live, live happily." But actually they are not living happily. To work in this factory is not happy. He has got suffering. But they are thinking they are happy. Just like the hog eating stool, he is happy. This is gross ignorance. Actually, therefore, there is revolt against these capitalist. There is another unhappiness. Now there is strike. So where is happiness? If there is happiness, why there is strike? Why there is so many strikes? Why there is protest? There is no happiness, but they are thinking it is happiness. Whole thing is based on ignorance, māyā . Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje. And the direct method for subduing these anarthas, unnecessary troubles— bhakti-yoga . There is no other way. Only bhakti-yoga . Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasya ajānataḥ (SB 1.7.6). People do not know it. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Therefore Vyāsadeva, most learned scholar, he has made this Bhāgavatam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣāt. (break) I was translating the Bhāgavatam , Eighth Canto, Twelfth Chapter. Hari-śauri: How many chapters is there? *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-four. Twenty-four. Half finished. Half finished, Eighth Canto. Kīrtanānanda: What is Eighth Canto like? What does Eighth Canto contain? Prabhupāda: Eighth Canto? There is churning of the ocean and producing nectar, and the demons, they did not receive the nectar. There was fight. Hari-śauri: And the story of Gajendra, as well? Prabhupāda: Gajendra, that is I think Seventh Canto, no? Hari-śauri: Beginning of the Eighth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gajendra also. Hari-śauri: That means four parts. That means four books for the Eighth Canto. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: Each volume is more wonderful. Each volume . . . Prabhupāda: Ah? Oh, yes. There is no comparison of this literature. Kīrtanānanda: I think before you came, *Bhāgavatam* was unknown. Prabhupāda: Unknown, yes. The Ramakrishna Mission published one *Bhāgavatam* commentary. You know that? Farce. They, these Ramakrishna Mission people, have done the greatest harm to the Vedic culture . . . (indistinct) . . . of course, it is not taken very seriously, Ramakrishna Mission. Hari-śauri: Not in the West. Prabhupāda: But they publicized in India that they have all, everyone, become . . . (indistinct) . . . in India they were doing like that, "Vivekananda Road," "Vivekananda Square," and rascals, they do not inquire even what is Vivekananda's contribution. Pradulika prabhāva. Hari-śauri: You made a good point about why, although now thousands of American boys and girls are coming to India, no one is going to the Ramakrishna Mission, so what kind of impact has he had? Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana they have got hospital and Ramakrishna temple. Who is going there? This is practical example. In our temple, thousands and thousands of the foreign boys and girls are coming, and who is going there? If it was actually they did something, they should at least have gone there out of inquisitiveness: "Oh, where is Vivekananda?" Nobody goes there. Not even to pass urine there. (laughter) (break) Kīrtanānanda: That Japanese tape recorder. Prabhupāda: And Hichai is . . . this is called hitchhike? Hari-śauri: Hitchhike. *Prabhupāda: That is "hitchhike," and this is Hitch*-hi. Hari-śauri: Hitachi. Prabhupāda: Hitachi, yes. This is a church? Kīrtanānanda: No, this is an institution, state institution for old people or mental home. I forget. "Western State School." (break) Prabhupāda: . . . Hayagrīva. Kīrtanānanda: I think he's in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Kīrtanānanda: I'm trying to get him to bring his boy to New Vrindavan. He's down there with those meat*-eaters. Prabhupāda: She is not agreeable? I think that she is not very well treated by her husband. Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Therefore . . . otherwise, she is a good girl. Kīrtanānanda: Hayagrīva's very . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I know she is good girl. He has disrupted his family also. Kīrtanānanda: If a devotee doesn't follow the principles, then he is sure to suffer. Nothing can be good in his family life. Prabhupāda: I thought that he is happy in family life. His father and mother came to congratulate him. Kīrtanānanda: He was better shape when I saw him last week than I've seen him in a long time. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: He was better in Los Angeles when I saw him last week than I've seen him in a long time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: He never lost his sentiment for you. Prabhupāda: No, that I know. Therefore I like. Kīrtanānanda: But he's addicted to his bad habits. Prabhupāda: He'll be corrected. There is no hopelessness. Kīrtanānanda: I've always felt that, but it makes it difficult to live with him in the meantime. (Prabhupāda laughs) Prabhupāda: Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). Is that railway line? No. (break) There are some roads, large size roads, Los Angeles. That is America everywhere. Kīrtanānanda: Big cars and big roads. Prabhupāda: Opulence. Hari-śauri: America seems to be one big highway. Prabhupāda: They have got cars and they have got roads also. Very good. That's all right. But why they should give up the real business of life? Hari-śauri: I don't think it's so much that they gave it up, they didn't ever know what it was. Prabhupāda: There was no preaching. There was no education on this subject. The Christian priests, they are unable to . . . Kīrtanānanda: They have no knowledge themselves. How they can teach? Hari-śauri: They are all giving up out of hopelessness themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are now asking . . . in Melbourne the priest asked me, "Swāmījī, why Christian religion is dwindling? What we have done?" I told them, "What you have not done?" (laughs) They were little insulted. Hari-śauri: That first time you visited that monastery, the man that was in charge, the head monk there, after you had visited, a short while later he left and he went to India, looking for enlightenment. Prabhupāda: Perhaps he got some shock when I said that, "What you have not done?" They received me very well. (break) *Kīrtanānanda: Altogether about an hour and half. About forty*-five minutes more. Prabhupāda: What is being done with Hayagrīva's house? Kīrtanānanda: I bought that from him. There are a few devotees there right now. Prabhupāda: No, the other house. Kīrtanānanda: Which one? Up at the original farm? Prabhupāda: No, not original. Kīrtanānanda: That's the one I'm talking about. Prabhupāda: Tulasī ? Kīrtanānanda: No, they're just wild flowers. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Hari-śauri: Very fragrant. Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) (break) Kīrtanānanda: (Prabhupāda is taking prasādam ) There's plenty of milk and ghee. Prabhupāda: This is human food. They do not know how to eat, the Westerners. (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . ever eat these nice foods they give up so much sinful activity, very easily. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: By just eating nice foods they can give up so much sinful activity. Prabhupāda: Who has made them? Kīrtanānanda: Different devotees—mother Lakhimā, mother . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Combined effort. Kīrtanānanda: Tamāla said this is the only place in the US now they have Vedic cooking. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . facility to get enough ghee. They have got the chance. Hari-śauri: Fresh vegetables, everything. (break) Kīrtanānanda: Feast? Yes. Prabhupāda: What did they say after eating these things? (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . Indians come and they always say, "Who has taught you to cook like this?" We tell them, "Śrīla Prabhupāda has taught us everything." Prabhupāda: At this 26 Second Avenue, Acyutānanda Mahārāja . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Many Indians come? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. (break) . . . membership program now. Hari-śauri: There were about three or four hundred Indians came to the feast yesterday. No, not yesterday; on Sunday. Prabhupāda: Six hundred. Hari-śauri: Six hundred. Kīrtanānanda: In Toronto? Hari-śauri: Yes, very big turnout. Big turnout also in Detroit. Same in Detroit. I never realized there were so many Indians all over the world. Prabhupāda: Generally, they are engaged in education. Hari-śauri: I know in England they all have responsible jobs. Doctors and like that. Prabhupāda: There are many medical practitioners, Indians. I have . . . I learned that British people, they like Indian physicians. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, they're very popular. Prabhupāda: They have got faith that these people treat carefully. One civil surgeon is a Bengali in London. Civil surgeon. You have heard this Aurobindo? His father was a medical practitioner in England, and he was born there. Hari-śauri: His mother was Indian also or . . .? No. (break) Prabhupāda: Indian families, they are living for two, three generation. (break) . . . teaching them how to make home comfortable, they'll be trained up to become prostitutes. How to kill time. (break) Hari-śauri: I think Tamāla was saying in New York they need good cooks there. Tamāla was saying that in New York they don't have very good cooks there. Prabhupāda: Nowhere there is good cook except here. (laughter) Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is good cook. Hari-śauri: He's trained everybody up very nicely. Kīrtanānanda: Prabhupāda knows how to flatter. Well, I think even we could not cook so good in Boston or New York. Without being in Vrindaban and the natural ingredients, it is not so . . . Prabhupāda: You can supply them ghee. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, we can do that. (break) Prabhupāda: You grow podina ? Podina ? Mint? Mint? Kīrtanānanda: Mint? Yes. Prabhupāda: Chutney. Kīrtanānanda: Mint chutney. How do you make mint chutney? Prabhupāda: I'll teach you. You have got mango? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: I'll teach you. Chili? Kīrtanānanda: They are not ripe yet. The plants are still too small for this year. Prabhupāda: They are not giving chili? Kīrtanānanda: Not yet. It is too early. In August. But I can get. I can get green chili. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . something to drink? Kīrtanānanda: No. Hari-śauri: I don't know what happened to that orange juice. Someone else was carrying it. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . because it is so nice. Kīrtanānanda: That is your mercy. Prabhupāda: So this was my dream, that a place should be there where we can get all nice foods, best foods, of milk. Kṛṣṇa is fulfilling that desire. Everything's there. Simply these rascals, they do not know how to live or to eat. Everything there. Intelligence is there, everything is there. Simply for want of training they have become rogues. Make them human beings, your countrymen. Everyone should follow the duty, materially and spiritually. Anyway . . . here is very nice here, this climate. It is a winter season of . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) These months, June, July, August, up to September? Kīrtanānanda: No, actually up to November. The devotees like the winter, though. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kīrtanānanda: It is even more conducive to think of Kṛṣṇa in the winter. Prabhupāda: So the neighborers, they like it? Neighborhood men? Kīrtanānanda: Most of them like us. There are a few that don't like us. But they are not violent. They are a little nasty. Prabhupāda: Nasty they have been trained up to be. (Sanskrit) Once trained up nastily, it is very difficult to . . . Kīrtanānanda: The state police in this local area has become very favorable to us. During that quarantine the state police had to stay there. So they even began to come to ārati . They took our books; they were reading but there's been a lot of change in some of the government. Some of the government men are now much favorable, more understanding. Prabhupāda: Whatever was there, it was due to misunderstanding. Kīrtanānanda: The sheriff is very favorable to us. Prabhupāda: Eh? Kīrtanānanda: The sheriff is very favorable, the judge. That judge that came to see you last time you were here, he still keeps a picture of you in his desk. Prabhupāda: Oh. Kīrtanānanda: When the palace is finished we will have nice ceremonies, and many of the local dignitaries will come. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . begins? Kīrtanānanda: Moundsville is that way about five miles. We are almost to New Vrindavan now. Two miles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Our post office is Moundsville. Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Do you want to go directly to your quarters, or do you want to stop by the temple? Prabhupāda: Yes, temple. Deities open? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then . . . (break) Actually it is gradually expanding in these quarters. (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . be on local television soon. That will be very good propaganda for us. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is shown? Or no, not yet. Kīrtanānanda: Not yet. Prabhupāda: One thing you have missed: how we are preparing all these foodstuff. Kīrtanānanda: It was too short. In the movie? It was too short how to prepare it? Prabhupāda: Yes. How from milk in different stages you get this foodstuff, kachorīs, siṅgāra, sandeśa, rābṛi . And this chānā , if fried, if you prepare nicely with little hing and ginger, then it will exactly taste like meat. They'll forget. If you give them without telling them, they will think that they're eating meat. Kīrtanānanda: Hing and what? Prepare with hing and . . .? Prabhupāda: Ginger. Kīrtanānanda: Ginger. Prabhupāda: They prepare the semiliquid meat like that. You give them little piece and they will not understand that it is not meat. (laughs) Hari-śauri: When we were in Los Angeles, Pālikā made some barā and it tasted . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja wouldn't eat it. He said it tasted too much like fish. Prabhupāda: With urad ḍāl , you can prepare fishy taste. Hari-śauri: Someone told me that your Guru Mahārāja said that . . . Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Anyone who is not taking urad ḍāl , he must be taking fish silently, secretly. (break) Kīrtanānanda: Not on this side, other side. I want to buy that farm there. Prabhupāda: This barn, Vrindaban. What is this building? Kīrtanānanda: They are constructing a . . . I have a big carpenter shop, a construction shop, a printing shop. And upstairs there will be a big hall for Janmāṣṭamī that holds seven, eight hundred people. There is another . . . that's our guesthouse building we're building there. You can see the top two floors, with the arches. Prabhupāda: What is this? Another barn? Kīrtanānanda: This is an ox barn here. Prabhupāda: No, this. Kīrtanānanda: That tank? That tank we are making for grain storage. Prabhupāda: Oh, much improvement. (end) (Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden) Prabhupāda: Thank you. Kīrtanānanda: In . . . (indistinct) . . . this is your palace. Prabhupāda: Oh! So many . . . (indistinct) Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: There is no such building in America. (break) These are our workers? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, these are your builders here. Bhāgavatānanda Prabhu has done the design. Prabhupāda: Oh. Very nice. Kīrtanānanda: And Ātmabhū Prabhu is the chief construction man. Ātmabhū. Prabhupāda: Oh, all our men. Kīrtanānanda: All our men. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. Kīrtanānanda: Your car will come in here, and you get out and you come right in. Prabhupāda: And this is the hall? Kīrtanānanda: This will be a little hall, and that is the worship room, where we can put your vyāsāsana in there, and you can lecture there, or . . . and we can worship you always there. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: But this dome will go up another twelve feet, and four feet from the top there is . . . this lotus flower starts, and this is just one little sample of the kind of casting that will finish it. It will all be done now with smooth plaster. This dome here is being done like this dome, covered with cement. And then where you see these arches are being poured, there will be colored glass windows, stained glass windows. Prabhupāda: To enter that temple you have to go through here? Kīrtanānanda: To enter the Deity room you go through the kitchen. Prabhupāda: No, generally people will go from this side to see the Deity? Kīrtanānanda: No, they will see just from out here. Prabhupāda: All these walls closed, there is no window. Kīrtanānanda: There is no window. Prabhupāda: Only one window. Kīrtanānanda: Four windows on the up. Prabhupāda: Ventilation. Kīrtanānanda: Ventilation? Prabhupāda: No ventilation. Kīrtanānanda: There will be artificial ventilation, fan. Prabhupāda: Oh. Natural ventilation is prohibited. (laughs) Kīrtanānanda: No, these windows can open—air that way. Prabhupāda: Nice veranda. This will be open like this? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: These are rooms? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, these will be servants' quarters on this side. Prabhupāda: This will be window? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. This will be a kitchen. Prabhupāda: Nice, very nice. And there will be garden here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. We are gradually clearing all this land. This was all wooded last year, and we're clearing now. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Kīrtanānanda: This is a very good view, all over our land. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kīrtanānanda: These are your quarters here. This will be your study room, and there will be a wall there. This is your bedroom. Prabhupāda: These are all marbles? No. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, this is all marble. The devotees—you see how the marble is all inlaid on the pieces there—they've done that. Then there will be a dressing room and a bath. Prabhupāda: Dressing room? Kīrtanānanda: Dressing room and bath. Prabhupāda: Oh. That side? Kīrtanānanda: That side. Prabhupāda: These framework will remain? Kīrtanānanda: No, it will be covered with plaster. Prabhupāda: Then it will be taken away? No. Kīrtanānanda: No, no, it remains. Prabhupāda: It will continue. Kīrtanānanda: You have some question about this? Prabhupāda: This iron is corroding. If it will not hamper. Kīrtanānanda: It will be covered. Prabhupāda: Covered, but now it is corroding. Kīrtanānanda: I see what you are saying. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Kīrtanānanda: There will also be . . . there is another door that goes in that wall there, like this, for access to that side. Prabhupāda: Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt ( BG 2.40). Little service in this connection, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can protect one from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya . Kīrtanānanda: You are so kind to let us do it. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's desire. White sand, wherefrom you secure? Kīrtanānanda: In Ohio, about sixty miles from here. Prabhupāda: From the seaside? Sea beach? No. Kīrtanānanda: No, they call it silica sand. I think it's made from glass. Prabhupāda: Not glass, it is a kind of stone made powder. Silica sand. They are like sandstone. Kīrtanānanda: This is just the first cut, not polished. Now, in this dome you see this is a . . . Prabhupāda: No, while constructing, filling up this, what is called, column, in Bombay they're putting air so that they become solid stone. You have seen in Bombay? Big engineer, they are giving some pumping air so that while the cement is filled up, it becomes solid. Hari-śauri: Oh, vibrators. Kīrtanānanda: We do that here. We also do that. Prabhupāda: You have got some machine? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: That makes solidified. Kīrtanānanda: No voids. Prabhupāda: Ah, no. Yes. I see, but . . . it appears there is no vacancy. But everything is there, engineering. Engineering process is . . . (indistinct) Kīrtanānanda: Yes. And we'll take you down to the gray house down here, we'll show you a few more things, how it's being finished. It is just rough here. Prabhupāda: What are these pipes? Kīrtanānanda: That's for drainage. For when the water goes out in the sewer, and goes out into the field and drains. Prabhupāda: You can utilize this water for fertilizing, drain water. Kīrtanānanda: Well, first of all we have to satisfy the health department. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . wood as fuel so that gradually this jungle will be clear. Thank you very much. Devotees: Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya ! Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya ! Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! (devotees offer obeisances) (break) (in car) Prabhupāda: This is sand. Kīrtanānanda: It's sand, yes. It's not from our property, but it's gotten locally. It comes out of the river. Prabhupāda: Everything you had to purchase? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: It will be required. Kīrtanānanda: For some time, anyway. While we are building so much we need some help. We do not have sufficient manpower. No one is idle. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, you like this? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's very wonderful. (out of car, entering workroom) Hari-śauri: We have to take our shoes off? Kīrtanānanda: It's okay. Prabhupāda: These are specially made? Kulādri: Yes, special for you, in New York City, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Kīrtanānanda: And this is the kind of doors and the stained glass work is being done like this. The marble is being worked like this. Prabhupāda: This is lead? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like in the church. Who has done this painting? Kīrtanānanda: That is, I think, from India. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Kīrtanānanda: These pictures are rose quartz. This is rose quartz and twenty*-four-carat gold. Prabhupāda: Gold? (laughter) *Kulādri: Twenty*-four carat. Prabhupāda: In that Detroit house, so much gold. That is also like this. What are these? Kīrtanānanda: This is a sample of the handles. Prabhupāda: Plumbing? Kīrtanānanda: Like those on the doors. Hari-śauri: Is this gold as well? Kulādri: Brass. Prabhupāda: Everything special. Kīrtanānanda: But we are just śūdras , we don't know how to do anything else. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What for these marbles? Kīrtanānanda: That will go on the wall in the bathroom, Italian cremo marble. Here's a picture of how the windows are being done in jāli work. This is being cast out of white cement. Prabhupāda: Doing here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. This is some of the castings they've done. This goes up on the ceiling. Prabhupāda: Cornice. Kīrtanānanda: Cornice, yes. Then around the top of the building on the outside, there's a railing with these balusters. Prabhupāda: This is made of cement? Kīrtanānanda: No, this one is plaster. This was our first model. But the ones that will be used will be done out of cement. This is very light. Do you have your drawing of the outside? Prabhupāda: Somebody's staying here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, Bhāgavatānanda and a couple of the other construction members stay here. (break) This is the way it will look when it's finished—the balusters and the brackets supporting the sunshade. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . when God is there, within the heart, He'll give you, "Do like this." Buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te (BG 10.10). If one is sincere to serve the Lord, the Lord is situated in everyone's heart, He'll give him, "Do like this." Teṣām evānukampārtham aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ (BG 10.11). It is special favor of God. Even if he's not aware of anything he deviated, He'll give instruction, "Do like this." So there is no scarcity of instruction if one is sincere. Thank you very much. (leaves workshop) (break) . . . I came to your country for preaching this, I had no idea how to do it. (laughs) But things are being model. People are surprised how within a short, so many short years, this world movement has sprung. But I had no idea how to do it. (laughter) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Seeing your palace here is almost like seeing the Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple for the first time. *Prabhupāda: Yes. In Ramaṇ*-reti there was no temple. Similarly, in this quarter there was no such building. Many people will come to see it. Kīrtanānanda: They already do, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, I can understand. Kīrtanānanda: Many people come by every week to see what progress has been made. And everybody who drives by, they stop. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is something wonderful in this quarter. Kīrtanānanda: You can drive fifty miles away around here, and they'll stop and ask you about how's the palace coming. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Changing New Vrindavan. It is already organized, New Vrindavan? Jaya . (break) (in car) Prabhupāda: . . . little further, I think. Kīrtanānanda: We're trying to clear all this now, too. Prabhupāda: This is ours? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Kīrtanānanda: It takes a long time to clear it, though. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Do slowly, that is pleasure. Kīrtanānanda: Well, we could do it much faster if we didn't try to utilize the wood, but we want to utilize. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Unnecessarily you should not cut. When it is necessary for Kṛṣṇa, then you cut. This is also living entity. We cannot kill them without any sufficient reason. (sings) Śrī*-kṛṣṇa-caitanya . This is our property? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. This side also. Kīrtanānanda: This side. Goes down to that road there. Prabhupāda: All this land can be utilized, planting. There is some graveyard? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. You want to ride any further? Prabhupāda: No. Harer nāma harer nāma harer (CC Adi 17.21). (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . can be seen in one direction at least a couple of miles away, several, no, three directions. This is the capital that will go in the courtyard here in the main temple . . . the assembly area. On those columns, this will go at the top. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Thank you. This is plastic? Kīrtanānanda: This is what they make the mold from. This one is in plaster. Now they will cast more. Below that they'll be faced with marble. Prabhupāda: They can do Deity also, they can. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, after they've done with your palace they're going to start on some Deities. I think they would like permission to first start with your deity. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Kulaśekhara: (shouting as they pass by) Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Kulaśekhara is here? Kīrtanānanda: Kulaśekhara, yes, he is editing Brijabasi Spirit now. We will put a wall around, and then all nice gardens inside. Prabhupāda: Cement wall or wooden? Kīrtanānanda: No, a combination of masonry and fancy iron so that people can see through. Prabhupāda: Reinforced. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, but also so they can see through at certain points. *Prabhupāda: Jaya . With sunshine this wood becomes very, very beautiful. Tapo*-vana . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . in this house. Who is staying now? Kīrtanānanda: Usually there are devotees that stay there. Right now we are not having anybody stay there. Lord Jagannātha stays there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Here, in this house? No. Kīrtanānanda: What is that? No, Jagannātha stays in that house. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . are grown here or brought from somewhere else? Kīrtanānanda: This was brought from somewhere else because there was nothing here in which to grow it. We can grow it . . . (indistinct) . . . that's why it's so wet right now, very wet. (break) Prabhupāda: They will do it like this, now it is very nice. Kīrtanānanda: Very beautiful. Prabhupāda: That one girl is taking care, she's doing very nice. We can sit down here? Kīrtanānanda: Kulādri, find some more things. Come up this side. As soon as you sit down, everything looks complete. Prabhupāda: Hmm? (laughs) Where is Pradyumna Mahārāja? Kīrtanānanda: He's just inside the house. You'd like him to come out? Prabhupāda: No. Pālikā, you came before here? Pālikā: Six years ago. There was just that one small, original farm. *Prabhupāda: Now it is a big property. And when the palace will be ready, many people will . . . you simply advertise, "Come and see palaces in New Vrindavan." It will be a combination of Western and Eastern culture, for the profit of the whole human society. So Vṛndāvana*-candra will come here? No. Vṛndāvana-candra Deity? Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: His palace will be different. *Kīrtanānanda: His palace will be where the building is now. We're planning to move Him into the new building next to the present temple, the four*-story building. He will occupy the fourth floor for now. Then we will take down that old building and put up a nice big temple. Prabhupāda: So why you dismantle, construct another? Kīrtanānanda: The building is not in such good condition. Prabhupāda: That's all right. As soon as the new temple is, move it. Or you want to dismantle it? Kīrtanānanda: The site is good. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, site is good. Kīrtanānanda: It will make a nice complex in relationship with the other buildings. Prabhupāda: That will . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare . Kīrtanānanda: We are about to install your mūrti in that temple. Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). The Vedic secret is that parā bhaktir , yasya deve , unto the Lord, similarly, to the guru , they, to them, the whole thing becomes revealed automatically. Vedic knowledge is grasped not by erudite scholarship. Mundane scholarship has nothing to do with. The secret is, yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau . My Guru Mahārāja wanted that some books should be published. So I tried my best, and he's giving success more than expectation. In the history nobody has sold religion, philosophical books, in such large quantity. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Or quality. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is all Guru Mahārāja's blessings. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is stressing on this point, guru*-mukha-padma-vākya , cittete kariyā aikya , āra nā koriha mane āśā . Simply execute that. Kṛṣṇa bhakti . . . kṛṣṇa prāpti haya yāhā haite . You'll get Kṛṣṇa. (long pause) (break) *Prabhupāda: Govinda, Gopīnātha, Madana Mohana, Śyāmasundara, Rādhā*-Dāmodara, Gokulānanda and . . .? Rādhā-Ramaṇa. These seven temples, Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇava. Then other Vaiṣṇavas came, Raṅganātha, Rāmānuja. (break) . . . devotees from India, we import to develop these quarters, will government allow? Kīrtanānanda: I don't think there's as much problem from our government as from the Indian government. Our problem so far has been Indian government. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? If somebody wants to go, migrate in America, what Indian government will do? Kīrtanānanda: They won't give them passport. Prabhupāda: No, no, passport means coming back. But if he's going to domicile, Indian government cannot check. If I want to go somewhere and live there . . . Kīrtanānanda: You have to have passport. As far as I know. Prabhupāda: But passport means if he wants to return. Kīrtanānanda: No, in other words, in order to get visa from US, you have to present your passport. Prabhupāda: Well there are different kinds of visa. Immigration visa. Suppose if anyone wants to migrate in America, our Society here, we give guarantee. I think there will be no . . . Kīrtanānanda: No difficulty. We can try. Prabhupāda: Our Society is here, and we give this man our guarantee for maintenance. So what is the objection? By law there is no objection. And if the Immigration Department allows, "Yes, you can come and live," then where will be . . .? Immigration means that here government should be satisfied that this man is coming, he will have no difficulty; government gives permit. Kīrtanānanda: Should be like that, anyway. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . similarly, you can bring some men from India. Kīrtanānanda: We would like that. Prabhupāda: And they also will be very pleased. In India is now so congested. If they get good . . . especially many East Bengalis who migrate in West Bengal for the troublesome conditions there, they'll be very happy here. You can write to Gopāla to inquire that we require here some Indians to come to help us. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mistris for construction? Prabhupāda: Mistri or anyone, to develop this Kṛṣṇa culture, so the Society will give guarantee. Why not take permission? And they may not come back. They may reside. Kīrtanānanda: I don't understand. That seems to be the government's . . . the Indian government's objection was that they wouldn't come back. Prabhupāda: So they are disturbed with overpopulation. Kīrtanānanda: It doesn't make any sense. But their objection was that they might not come back. Prabhupāda: But that is good for you, because you are harassed by overpopulation. You cannot feed them even. Why you object? Let them go and live somewhere else peacefully. Just like the Europeans came here. Originally, in America, Europeans came. Because it was overcongested and they got . . . Columbus found this land, enough, and they migrated. So still there is so much land. The Indians are hard workers; *they will develop very nicely. Just like this quarter. If Indians would be allowed, they'll come and make it very nice. In South America they have done. Many Indian cultivators, they have come in remote villages. This cooperation should be. Everything belongs to God. Why a class or community should be congested? Just like China, Japan, India, so much congested. What is this nonsense United Nation doing? What they have done for the last thirty years? No liberal*-minded. Let them propose that wherever there is enough land and wherever there is overpopulation, let them go, and the government give them simply land and let them work and be happy. Why not arrange, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, arrange between these two, United Nation? Why a section of people is rotting in a place and devising some means how to fight with the others and get land? Why? There is no meaning. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). This is our philosophy: Everything belongs to God, and everyone is a son of God; therefore the son of God has the right. Why they should be thrown together and live compulsorily in that rotten place, that in China they are living on the sea? You know that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Taiwan. Kīrtanānanda: Thailand, yes. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. They have no place to live on the land. Kīrtanānanda: They build boats and live in the water. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially if people are coming for agriculture. Prabhupāda: Agriculture is the noblest profession. Give him some land, he cuts the wood, makes cottages. The land is clear, now till it, keep cows and grow food grains. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Doesn't put any local men out of work, also. Prabhupāda: Simple thing. And then live comfortably, eat comfortably, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. "Comfortably" does not mean satisfaction of the senses. Comfortably means we require primary necessities: to eat something, to sleep somewhere or have some sex—this is also bodily need—and to defend, that's all. These are the primary necessities. That can be arranged anywhere. God has given all facilities. Grow your own food, eat, and live anywhere. Just this place was rough like that, now it is handled nicely, it is very attractive. Bikale cukale ghar, sajale gochale bor. (If you clean a bad place it will become a home, and if you decorate a dirty person he will become a groom.) Any damn place, you cleanse it, it becomes home. And any nasty man, you decorate him, he becomes a bridegroom. (laughs) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Becomes a . . .? Hari-śauri: Bridegroom. *Prabhupāda: Bikale cukale ghar, sajale gochale bor. (If you clean a bad place it will become a home, and if you decorate a dirty person he will become a groom.) ( japa ) Let Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement give this sense to these rascals. They do not know how to adjust things. They simply plan their United Nation, but they do not know what is that plan. Yes. United Nation should be . . . first of all, why nation? Why manufacture nation and create trouble and again united? Nation—this word is not there in the Vedic language. There's no conception of nation. There is conception of varṇāśrama , everywhere. Not for any particular nation or any particular country, but everyone, according to quality—first*-class men, second-class men, third-class men. That is there everywhere. Everywhere you go, you find some people first-class intelligent, some people less than him, some people less than him, up to fourth class, that's all. And then fifth class. So everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . Now you try to implement. Perfect human life. Let any sociologist, politician come forward. We shall convince them that this is the only way. Why you are wasting time and barking dogs in the United Nation for the last forty years and doing nothing? What I have said, barking dogs? You have read it? I accused them as barking dogs . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Melbourne. Prabhupāda: . . . Melbourne, and they published in the paper. Actually, this is fact. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Barking for the last thirty years. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody has criticized them. They have taken it seriously; otherwise, why they have published? Yes, that's right. What they have done except barking? "I am American," "I am Russian," "I am this," "I am that," that's all. If you keep them dogs and hogs and, nicely dressed, they go to United Nation and talk of unity, is it possible? Can the dogs and hogs can unite? Common sense. You bring all the dogs of this neighborhood and ask them, "Don't bark now. Live peacefully," (laughter) will they be able? (laughs) The United Nation is like that. They're kept as dogs, and they're advised, "Now keep peacefully." Is it possible? They have no common sense even. First of all, let them become human beings. Conference is going on, big conference, and our Jawaharlal Nehru has imitated, that in the conference there are different languages, different . . . but if somebody is speaking in any language you'll hear it in your own language. Remember? In New Delhi he has done that. This rascal thought, "Now I am finished, I have done my duty." All rascals. ( japa ) Thus our definition, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's either in these four groups, bās , final. You just try to prove it. Hmm? Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? You have any doubt about it? Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Anyone? Do it very nicely. Push Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement vigorously. ( japa ) If you keep the people in ignorance like dogs and hogs, what is the value of advancement of knowledge? So many universities? ( japa ) But discuss this point, our charge; explain to them, and let someone defend them, someone talking for, and let him decide. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ ? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Whether this is fact. It is fact, but even if we do not accept it, what is the wrong there, find out. We don't find any wrong, everything. Because Kṛṣṇa said it, then it's all right. Because they will say it is too sectarian, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's the most miscreant, sinful and ass and lowest of the mankind—he has lost his all knowledge. This is our accusation. Now defend. Any gentleman will protest, that "I am such a respectable gentleman, and because I do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then I'll fall among these groups? What is this?" They will say. Now you'll have to prove that, "You are not a gentleman." Kīrtanānanda: Gentleman means one who is cultured. So culture is not of the body but of knowledge. Prabhupāda: But what do you mean by culture? First of all, the question will be, "What do you mean by culture?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's some idea of progress involved, advancement of life. Otherwise, there's no need for any kind of progress. One remains as a child. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that? Culture means advancement in knowledge. We say: "You're a gentleman of culture." That means he's advanced in knowledge. So what is the advancement of knowledge, next question will be. Rakṣaṇa: Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna that that was to know that he was factually not his body. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is advancement of knowledge. Otherwise, what is the difference between this bird and the human being? He's also dancing very jolly, but he has no knowledge that he's not this body. So if the human being also remains falsely jolly, without any knowledge of his existence, then what is the difference between the birds, dogs and human beings? Why we say low grade, animals? He's living in his own way. He has got all the facilities of eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Just you have all the same things. Where is the difference between you and him? Why you say advanced in knowledge? Rakṣaṇa: Nowadays they say that they're advanced in knowledge even without any sophistication at all, while Arjuna, when he was giving his arguments to Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: No, don't bring Arjuna now. Just speak on commonsense platform. As soon as we bring Arjuna, they'll think it is sectarian. We are talking on human common sense. What is advancement of knowledge? Devotee: They say if it's advancement of knowledge, if they are advanced, why do they have to die? The animals are dying, and they're accepting that, and the human beings also die. But why does he have to die if he's advanced in knowledge? Rakṣaṇa: Even if you are advanced in knowledge, you still have to die. Kīrtanānanda: Advancement of knowledge is to distinguish between what is temporary and what is eternal. Prabhupāda: Discuss amongst yourselves. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They may say, though, that even the human beings, the necessities are there—eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Prabhupāda: Everyone is doing. What is your advancement of knowledge? The bird is chirping, dancing, they're living, they are sleeping, they have got sex. So everyone is doing. What is your advancement of knowledge? Kīrtanānanda: We carry out these activities in relationship with the eternal soul. So that by performing the activities one is gaining knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Provided you have got the knowledge of the soul, then you are advanced than the birds and beasts. Otherwise, where is the advancement? Athāto brahma jijñāsā . The human being, they can inquire about the spirit soul. These birds, beasts, they cannot. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Then we find so many purported religious people, just like Christians, they may say: "Well, I believe in the soul," but nonetheless they are going on with their materialistic civilization. Prabhupāda: That means you do not know seriously what is soul. You have simply an idea, but you do not know in detail. Just like they say, the Christians, "God is great." But they do not know who is God and what is the meaning of greatness. That they do not know. They accept this theoretically or religious sentimentally, "God is great." Just like your state says: "In God We Trust." As soon as I inquire what kind of trust and to whom, there is no reply. That means they do not know what is God, what is trust. As a matter of slogan they write, that's all—even the state heads, and what to speak of the nonsense ordinary citizens. Seriously taking, it is very important question. They should have replied. But they do not know how to reply. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With all of the situations that take place in the material world, they may not be able to see how God is actually active in the material world, that whether there's a war or whether . . . Prabhupāda: Well, that you should . . . why you should remain in ignorance how God is acting? If you are serious about God, that you must know. Just like a statesman, he knows how government is acting. Ordinary man, he knows government is acting, but he does not know how government is acting. But advanced in knowledge, they know what is the constitution, how the government is acting. That is the difference. Therefore lawyer is appointed when there is some trouble. He can find out where is the defect. That is advancement of . . . (break) (end) (Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden) Prabhupāda: Thank you. Kīrtanānanda: In . . . (indistinct) . . . this is your palace. Prabhupāda: Oh! So many . . . (indistinct) Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: There is no such building in America. (break) These are our workers? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, these are your builders here. Bhāgavatānanda Prabhu has done the design. Prabhupāda: Oh. Very nice. Kīrtanānanda: And Ātmabhū Prabhu is the chief construction man. Ātmabhū. Prabhupāda: Oh, all our men. Kīrtanānanda: All our men. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. Kīrtanānanda: Your car will come in here, and you get out and you come right in. Prabhupāda: And this is the hall? Kīrtanānanda: This will be a little hall, and that is the worship room, where we can put your vyāsāsana in there, and you can lecture there, or . . . and we can worship you always there. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: But this dome will go up another twelve feet, and four feet from the top there is . . . this lotus flower starts, and this is just one little sample of the kind of casting that will finish it. It will all be done now with smooth plaster. This dome here is being done like this dome, covered with cement. And then where you see these arches are being poured, there will be colored glass windows, stained glass windows. Prabhupāda: To enter that temple you have to go through here? Kīrtanānanda: To enter the Deity room you go through the kitchen. Prabhupāda: No, generally people will go from this side to see the Deity? Kīrtanānanda: No, they will see just from out here. Prabhupāda: All these walls closed, there is no window. Kīrtanānanda: There is no window. Prabhupāda: Only one window. Kīrtanānanda: Four windows on the up. Prabhupāda: Ventilation. Kīrtanānanda: Ventilation? Prabhupāda: No ventilation. Kīrtanānanda: There will be artificial ventilation, fan. Prabhupāda: Oh. Natural ventilation is prohibited. (laughs) Kīrtanānanda: No, these windows can open—air that way. Prabhupāda: Nice veranda. This will be open like this? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: These are rooms? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, these will be servants' quarters on this side. Prabhupāda: This will be window? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. This will be a kitchen. Prabhupāda: Nice, very nice. And there will be garden here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. We are gradually clearing all this land. This was all wooded last year, and we're clearing now. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Kīrtanānanda: This is a very good view, all over our land. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kīrtanānanda: These are your quarters here. This will be your study room, and there will be a wall there. This is your bedroom. Prabhupāda: These are all marbles? No. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, this is all marble. The devotees—you see how the marble is all inlaid on the pieces there—they've done that. Then there will be a dressing room and a bath. Prabhupāda: Dressing room? Kīrtanānanda: Dressing room and bath. Prabhupāda: Oh. That side? Kīrtanānanda: That side. Prabhupāda: These framework will remain? Kīrtanānanda: No, it will be covered with plaster. Prabhupāda: Then it will be taken away? No. Kīrtanānanda: No, no, it remains. Prabhupāda: It will continue. Kīrtanānanda: You have some question about this? Prabhupāda: This iron is corroding. If it will not hamper. Kīrtanānanda: It will be covered. Prabhupāda: Covered, but now it is corroding. Kīrtanānanda: I see what you are saying. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Kīrtanānanda: There will also be . . . there is another door that goes in that wall there, like this, for access to that side. Prabhupāda: Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt ( BG 2.40). Little service in this connection, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can protect one from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya . Kīrtanānanda: You are so kind to let us do it. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's desire. White sand, wherefrom you secure? Kīrtanānanda: In Ohio, about sixty miles from here. Prabhupāda: From the seaside? Sea beach? No. Kīrtanānanda: No, they call it silica sand. I think it's made from glass. Prabhupāda: Not glass, it is a kind of stone made powder. Silica sand. They are like sandstone. Kīrtanānanda: This is just the first cut, not polished. Now, in this dome you see this is a . . . Prabhupāda: No, while constructing, filling up this, what is called, column, in Bombay they're putting air so that they become solid stone. You have seen in Bombay? Big engineer, they are giving some pumping air so that while the cement is filled up, it becomes solid. Hari-śauri: Oh, vibrators. Kīrtanānanda: We do that here. We also do that. Prabhupāda: You have got some machine? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: That makes solidified. Kīrtanānanda: No voids. Prabhupāda: Ah, no. Yes. I see, but . . . it appears there is no vacancy. But everything is there, engineering. Engineering process is . . . (indistinct) Kīrtanānanda: Yes. And we'll take you down to the gray house down here, we'll show you a few more things, how it's being finished. It is just rough here. Prabhupāda: What are these pipes? Kīrtanānanda: That's for drainage. For when the water goes out in the sewer, and goes out into the field and drains. Prabhupāda: You can utilize this water for fertilizing, drain water. Kīrtanānanda: Well, first of all we have to satisfy the health department. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . wood as fuel so that gradually this jungle will be clear. Thank you very much. Devotees: Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya ! Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya ! Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! (devotees offer obeisances) (break) (in car) Prabhupāda: This is sand. Kīrtanānanda: It's sand, yes. It's not from our property, but it's gotten locally. It comes out of the river. Prabhupāda: Everything you had to purchase? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: It will be required. Kīrtanānanda: For some time, anyway. While we are building so much we need some help. We do not have sufficient manpower. No one is idle. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, you like this? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's very wonderful. (out of car, entering workroom) Hari-śauri: We have to take our shoes off? Kīrtanānanda: It's okay. Prabhupāda: These are specially made? Kulādri: Yes, special for you, in New York City, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Kīrtanānanda: And this is the kind of doors and the stained glass work is being done like this. The marble is being worked like this. Prabhupāda: This is lead? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like in the church. Who has done this painting? Kīrtanānanda: That is, I think, from India. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Kīrtanānanda: These pictures are rose quartz. This is rose quartz and twenty*-four-carat gold. Prabhupāda: Gold? (laughter) *Kulādri: Twenty*-four carat. Prabhupāda: In that Detroit house, so much gold. That is also like this. What are these? Kīrtanānanda: This is a sample of the handles. Prabhupāda: Plumbing? Kīrtanānanda: Like those on the doors. Hari-śauri: Is this gold as well? Kulādri: Brass. Prabhupāda: Everything special. Kīrtanānanda: But we are just śūdras , we don't know how to do anything else. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What for these marbles? Kīrtanānanda: That will go on the wall in the bathroom, Italian cremo marble. Here's a picture of how the windows are being done in jāli work. This is being cast out of white cement. Prabhupāda: Doing here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. This is some of the castings they've done. This goes up on the ceiling. Prabhupāda: Cornice. Kīrtanānanda: Cornice, yes. Then around the top of the building on the outside, there's a railing with these balusters. Prabhupāda: This is made of cement? Kīrtanānanda: No, this one is plaster. This was our first model. But the ones that will be used will be done out of cement. This is very light. Do you have your drawing of the outside? Prabhupāda: Somebody's staying here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, Bhāgavatānanda and a couple of the other construction members stay here. (break) This is the way it will look when it's finished—the balusters and the brackets supporting the sunshade. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . when God is there, within the heart, He'll give you, "Do like this." Buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te (BG 10.10). If one is sincere to serve the Lord, the Lord is situated in everyone's heart, He'll give him, "Do like this." Teṣām evānukampārtham aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ (BG 10.11). It is special favor of God. Even if he's not aware of anything he deviated, He'll give instruction, "Do like this." So there is no scarcity of instruction if one is sincere. Thank you very much. (leaves workshop) (break) . . . I came to your country for preaching this, I had no idea how to do it. (laughs) But things are being model. People are surprised how within a short, so many short years, this world movement has sprung. But I had no idea how to do it. (laughter) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Seeing your palace here is almost like seeing the Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple for the first time. *Prabhupāda: Yes. In Ramaṇ*-reti there was no temple. Similarly, in this quarter there was no such building. Many people will come to see it. Kīrtanānanda: They already do, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, I can understand. Kīrtanānanda: Many people come by every week to see what progress has been made. And everybody who drives by, they stop. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is something wonderful in this quarter. Kīrtanānanda: You can drive fifty miles away around here, and they'll stop and ask you about how's the palace coming. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Changing New Vrindavan. It is already organized, New Vrindavan? Jaya . (break) (in car) Prabhupāda: . . . little further, I think. Kīrtanānanda: We're trying to clear all this now, too. Prabhupāda: This is ours? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Kīrtanānanda: It takes a long time to clear it, though. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Do slowly, that is pleasure. Kīrtanānanda: Well, we could do it much faster if we didn't try to utilize the wood, but we want to utilize. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Unnecessarily you should not cut. When it is necessary for Kṛṣṇa, then you cut. This is also living entity. We cannot kill them without any sufficient reason. (sings) Śrī*-kṛṣṇa-caitanya . This is our property? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. This side also. Kīrtanānanda: This side. Goes down to that road there. Prabhupāda: All this land can be utilized, planting. There is some graveyard? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. You want to ride any further? Prabhupāda: No. Harer nāma harer nāma harer (CC Adi 17.21). (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . can be seen in one direction at least a couple of miles away, several, no, three directions. This is the capital that will go in the courtyard here in the main temple . . . the assembly area. On those columns, this will go at the top. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Thank you. This is plastic? Kīrtanānanda: This is what they make the mold from. This one is in plaster. Now they will cast more. Below that they'll be faced with marble. Prabhupāda: They can do Deity also, they can. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, after they've done with your palace they're going to start on some Deities. I think they would like permission to first start with your deity. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Kulaśekhara: (shouting as they pass by) Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Kulaśekhara is here? Kīrtanānanda: Kulaśekhara, yes, he is editing Brijabasi Spirit now. We will put a wall around, and then all nice gardens inside. Prabhupāda: Cement wall or wooden? Kīrtanānanda: No, a combination of masonry and fancy iron so that people can see through. Prabhupāda: Reinforced. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, but also so they can see through at certain points. *Prabhupāda: Jaya . With sunshine this wood becomes very, very beautiful. Tapo*-vana . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . in this house. Who is staying now? Kīrtanānanda: Usually there are devotees that stay there. Right now we are not having anybody stay there. Lord Jagannātha stays there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Here, in this house? No. Kīrtanānanda: What is that? No, Jagannātha stays in that house. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . are grown here or brought from somewhere else? Kīrtanānanda: This was brought from somewhere else because there was nothing here in which to grow it. We can grow it . . . (indistinct) . . . that's why it's so wet right now, very wet. (break) Prabhupāda: They will do it like this, now it is very nice. Kīrtanānanda: Very beautiful. Prabhupāda: That one girl is taking care, she's doing very nice. We can sit down here? Kīrtanānanda: Kulādri, find some more things. Come up this side. As soon as you sit down, everything looks complete. Prabhupāda: Hmm? (laughs) Where is Pradyumna Mahārāja? Kīrtanānanda: He's just inside the house. You'd like him to come out? Prabhupāda: No. Pālikā, you came before here? Pālikā: Six years ago. There was just that one small, original farm. *Prabhupāda: Now it is a big property. And when the palace will be ready, many people will . . . you simply advertise, "Come and see palaces in New Vrindavan." It will be a combination of Western and Eastern culture, for the profit of the whole human society. So Vṛndāvana*-candra will come here? No. Vṛndāvana-candra Deity? Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: His palace will be different. *Kīrtanānanda: His palace will be where the building is now. We're planning to move Him into the new building next to the present temple, the four*-story building. He will occupy the fourth floor for now. Then we will take down that old building and put up a nice big temple. Prabhupāda: So why you dismantle, construct another? Kīrtanānanda: The building is not in such good condition. Prabhupāda: That's all right. As soon as the new temple is, move it. Or you want to dismantle it? Kīrtanānanda: The site is good. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, site is good. Kīrtanānanda: It will make a nice complex in relationship with the other buildings. Prabhupāda: That will . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare . Kīrtanānanda: We are about to install your mūrti in that temple. Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). The Vedic secret is that parā bhaktir , yasya deve , unto the Lord, similarly, to the guru , they, to them, the whole thing becomes revealed automatically. Vedic knowledge is grasped not by erudite scholarship. Mundane scholarship has nothing to do with. The secret is, yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau . My Guru Mahārāja wanted that some books should be published. So I tried my best, and he's giving success more than expectation. In the history nobody has sold religion, philosophical books, in such large quantity. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Or quality. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is all Guru Mahārāja's blessings. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is stressing on this point, guru*-mukha-padma-vākya , cittete kariyā aikya , āra nā koriha mane āśā . Simply execute that. Kṛṣṇa bhakti . . . kṛṣṇa prāpti haya yāhā haite . You'll get Kṛṣṇa. (long pause) (break) *Prabhupāda: Govinda, Gopīnātha, Madana Mohana, Śyāmasundara, Rādhā*-Dāmodara, Gokulānanda and . . .? Rādhā-Ramaṇa. These seven temples, Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇava. Then other Vaiṣṇavas came, Raṅganātha, Rāmānuja. (break) . . . devotees from India, we import to develop these quarters, will government allow? Kīrtanānanda: I don't think there's as much problem from our government as from the Indian government. Our problem so far has been Indian government. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? If somebody wants to go, migrate in America, what Indian government will do? Kīrtanānanda: They won't give them passport. Prabhupāda: No, no, passport means coming back. But if he's going to domicile, Indian government cannot check. If I want to go somewhere and live there . . . Kīrtanānanda: You have to have passport. As far as I know. Prabhupāda: But passport means if he wants to return. Kīrtanānanda: No, in other words, in order to get visa from US, you have to present your passport. Prabhupāda: Well there are different kinds of visa. Immigration visa. Suppose if anyone wants to migrate in America, our Society here, we give guarantee. I think there will be no . . . Kīrtanānanda: No difficulty. We can try. Prabhupāda: Our Society is here, and we give this man our guarantee for maintenance. So what is the objection? By law there is no objection. And if the Immigration Department allows, "Yes, you can come and live," then where will be . . .? Immigration means that here government should be satisfied that this man is coming, he will have no difficulty; government gives permit. Kīrtanānanda: Should be like that, anyway. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . similarly, you can bring some men from India. Kīrtanānanda: We would like that. Prabhupāda: And they also will be very pleased. In India is now so congested. If they get good . . . especially many East Bengalis who migrate in West Bengal for the troublesome conditions there, they'll be very happy here. You can write to Gopāla to inquire that we require here some Indians to come to help us. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mistris for construction? Prabhupāda: Mistri or anyone, to develop this Kṛṣṇa culture, so the Society will give guarantee. Why not take permission? And they may not come back. They may reside. Kīrtanānanda: I don't understand. That seems to be the government's . . . the Indian government's objection was that they wouldn't come back. Prabhupāda: So they are disturbed with overpopulation. Kīrtanānanda: It doesn't make any sense. But their objection was that they might not come back. Prabhupāda: But that is good for you, because you are harassed by overpopulation. You cannot feed them even. Why you object? Let them go and live somewhere else peacefully. Just like the Europeans came here. Originally, in America, Europeans came. Because it was overcongested and they got . . . Columbus found this land, enough, and they migrated. So still there is so much land. The Indians are hard workers; *they will develop very nicely. Just like this quarter. If Indians would be allowed, they'll come and make it very nice. In South America they have done. Many Indian cultivators, they have come in remote villages. This cooperation should be. Everything belongs to God. Why a class or community should be congested? Just like China, Japan, India, so much congested. What is this nonsense United Nation doing? What they have done for the last thirty years? No liberal*-minded. Let them propose that wherever there is enough land and wherever there is overpopulation, let them go, and the government give them simply land and let them work and be happy. Why not arrange, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, arrange between these two, United Nation? Why a section of people is rotting in a place and devising some means how to fight with the others and get land? Why? There is no meaning. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). This is our philosophy: Everything belongs to God, and everyone is a son of God; therefore the son of God has the right. Why they should be thrown together and live compulsorily in that rotten place, that in China they are living on the sea? You know that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Taiwan. Kīrtanānanda: Thailand, yes. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. They have no place to live on the land. Kīrtanānanda: They build boats and live in the water. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially if people are coming for agriculture. Prabhupāda: Agriculture is the noblest profession. Give him some land, he cuts the wood, makes cottages. The land is clear, now till it, keep cows and grow food grains. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Doesn't put any local men out of work, also. Prabhupāda: Simple thing. And then live comfortably, eat comfortably, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. "Comfortably" does not mean satisfaction of the senses. Comfortably means we require primary necessities: to eat something, to sleep somewhere or have some sex—this is also bodily need—and to defend, that's all. These are the primary necessities. That can be arranged anywhere. God has given all facilities. Grow your own food, eat, and live anywhere. Just this place was rough like that, now it is handled nicely, it is very attractive. Bikale cukale ghar, sajale gochale bor. (If you clean a bad place it will become a home, and if you decorate a dirty person he will become a groom.) Any damn place, you cleanse it, it becomes home. And any nasty man, you decorate him, he becomes a bridegroom. (laughs) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Becomes a . . .? Hari-śauri: Bridegroom. *Prabhupāda: Bikale cukale ghar, sajale gochale bor. (If you clean a bad place it will become a home, and if you decorate a dirty person he will become a groom.) ( japa ) Let Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement give this sense to these rascals. They do not know how to adjust things. They simply plan their United Nation, but they do not know what is that plan. Yes. United Nation should be . . . first of all, why nation? Why manufacture nation and create trouble and again united? Nation—this word is not there in the Vedic language. There's no conception of nation. There is conception of varṇāśrama , everywhere. Not for any particular nation or any particular country, but everyone, according to quality—first*-class men, second-class men, third-class men. That is there everywhere. Everywhere you go, you find some people first-class intelligent, some people less than him, some people less than him, up to fourth class, that's all. And then fifth class. So everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . Now you try to implement. Perfect human life. Let any sociologist, politician come forward. We shall convince them that this is the only way. Why you are wasting time and barking dogs in the United Nation for the last forty years and doing nothing? What I have said, barking dogs? You have read it? I accused them as barking dogs . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Melbourne. Prabhupāda: . . . Melbourne, and they published in the paper. Actually, this is fact. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Barking for the last thirty years. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody has criticized them. They have taken it seriously; otherwise, why they have published? Yes, that's right. What they have done except barking? "I am American," "I am Russian," "I am this," "I am that," that's all. If you keep them dogs and hogs and, nicely dressed, they go to United Nation and talk of unity, is it possible? Can the dogs and hogs can unite? Common sense. You bring all the dogs of this neighborhood and ask them, "Don't bark now. Live peacefully," (laughter) will they be able? (laughs) The United Nation is like that. They're kept as dogs, and they're advised, "Now keep peacefully." Is it possible? They have no common sense even. First of all, let them become human beings. Conference is going on, big conference, and our Jawaharlal Nehru has imitated, that in the conference there are different languages, different . . . but if somebody is speaking in any language you'll hear it in your own language. Remember? In New Delhi he has done that. This rascal thought, "Now I am finished, I have done my duty." All rascals. ( japa ) Thus our definition, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's either in these four groups, bās , final. You just try to prove it. Hmm? Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? You have any doubt about it? Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Anyone? Do it very nicely. Push Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement vigorously. ( japa ) If you keep the people in ignorance like dogs and hogs, what is the value of advancement of knowledge? So many universities? ( japa ) But discuss this point, our charge; explain to them, and let someone defend them, someone talking for, and let him decide. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ ? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Whether this is fact. It is fact, but even if we do not accept it, what is the wrong there, find out. We don't find any wrong, everything. Because Kṛṣṇa said it, then it's all right. Because they will say it is too sectarian, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's the most miscreant, sinful and ass and lowest of the mankind—he has lost his all knowledge. This is our accusation. Now defend. Any gentleman will protest, that "I am such a respectable gentleman, and because I do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then I'll fall among these groups? What is this?" They will say. Now you'll have to prove that, "You are not a gentleman." Kīrtanānanda: Gentleman means one who is cultured. So culture is not of the body but of knowledge. Prabhupāda: But what do you mean by culture? First of all, the question will be, "What do you mean by culture?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's some idea of progress involved, advancement of life. Otherwise, there's no need for any kind of progress. One remains as a child. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that? Culture means advancement in knowledge. We say: "You're a gentleman of culture." That means he's advanced in knowledge. So what is the advancement of knowledge, next question will be. Rakṣaṇa: Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna that that was to know that he was factually not his body. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is advancement of knowledge. Otherwise, what is the difference between this bird and the human being? He's also dancing very jolly, but he has no knowledge that he's not this body. So if the human being also remains falsely jolly, without any knowledge of his existence, then what is the difference between the birds, dogs and human beings? Why we say low grade, animals? He's living in his own way. He has got all the facilities of eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Just you have all the same things. Where is the difference between you and him? Why you say advanced in knowledge? Rakṣaṇa: Nowadays they say that they're advanced in knowledge even without any sophistication at all, while Arjuna, when he was giving his arguments to Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: No, don't bring Arjuna now. Just speak on commonsense platform. As soon as we bring Arjuna, they'll think it is sectarian. We are talking on human common sense. What is advancement of knowledge? Devotee: They say if it's advancement of knowledge, if they are advanced, why do they have to die? The animals are dying, and they're accepting that, and the human beings also die. But why does he have to die if he's advanced in knowledge? Rakṣaṇa: Even if you are advanced in knowledge, you still have to die. Kīrtanānanda: Advancement of knowledge is to distinguish between what is temporary and what is eternal. Prabhupāda: Discuss amongst yourselves. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They may say, though, that even the human beings, the necessities are there—eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Prabhupāda: Everyone is doing. What is your advancement of knowledge? The bird is chirping, dancing, they're living, they are sleeping, they have got sex. So everyone is doing. What is your advancement of knowledge? Kīrtanānanda: We carry out these activities in relationship with the eternal soul. So that by performing the activities one is gaining knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Provided you have got the knowledge of the soul, then you are advanced than the birds and beasts. Otherwise, where is the advancement? Athāto brahma jijñāsā . The human being, they can inquire about the spirit soul. These birds, beasts, they cannot. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Then we find so many purported religious people, just like Christians, they may say: "Well, I believe in the soul," but nonetheless they are going on with their materialistic civilization. Prabhupāda: That means you do not know seriously what is soul. You have simply an idea, but you do not know in detail. Just like they say, the Christians, "God is great." But they do not know who is God and what is the meaning of greatness. That they do not know. They accept this theoretically or religious sentimentally, "God is great." Just like your state says: "In God We Trust." As soon as I inquire what kind of trust and to whom, there is no reply. That means they do not know what is God, what is trust. As a matter of slogan they write, that's all—even the state heads, and what to speak of the nonsense ordinary citizens. Seriously taking, it is very important question. They should have replied. But they do not know how to reply. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With all of the situations that take place in the material world, they may not be able to see how God is actually active in the material world, that whether there's a war or whether . . . Prabhupāda: Well, that you should . . . why you should remain in ignorance how God is acting? If you are serious about God, that you must know. Just like a statesman, he knows how government is acting. Ordinary man, he knows government is acting, but he does not know how government is acting. But advanced in knowledge, they know what is the constitution, how the government is acting. That is the difference. Therefore lawyer is appointed when there is some trouble. He can find out where is the defect. That is advancement of . . . (break) (end) (Garden Conversation) *Prabhupāda: . . .production of it's external. Bahir*-aṅga-śakti. But the śakti, the energy, is coming from the Supreme. Just like here we find this place is shadow and that place is sunshine. Both these places are due to the sun. When there is no sun, there is no such distinction that "This is shining, sunny, and this is shadow." So this distinction is there so long we do not know the real source. But if we know the real source, we can understand that this distinction is temporary. Actually the energy is coming from the Supreme. So shadow has come from Supreme, and light has also come from the Supreme. So there is no distinction, ultimately. Just like earring, golden, manufactured from gold, and the gold which is not manufactured. So this distinction—manufactured or not manufactured, secondary. But really the earring is also gold, and the lump of gold is also gold. So why should we say that earring is false? It is also gold. In relationship with the supreme source, janmādy asya yataḥ ( SB 1.1.1), there is no such distinction. *In another place, while Vyāsadeva was instructed by Nārada, he said, idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaro (SB 1.5.20). This viśva, the virāṭ*-rūpa, is also Bhagavān, but it appears different from Him. Just like the shadow appears different from the sunshine, but actually, taking the central point of emanation, it is different manifestation. That's all. Tree—there are so many varieties. One is trunk, one is branch, one is twig, one is leaf, one is . . . So the varieties are there, but the tree is one, the root. So ultimately there is no variety; *only one. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). The difference is the Māyāvādīs, they abruptly say everything is one. Not everything is one. The trunk is not one with the leaf, but ultimately, because the root is the cause, so there is no difference between the trunk and the leaf. This is acintya*-bhedābheda philosophy, simultaneously one and different. On the whole, everything is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why should we think this world is mithyā when it is created by God? Does God create anything false? No. When it is created by God . . . When we think that "I create some business, some factory, that is my pleasure," but if somebody else thinks it, it is for his pleasure, that is māyā. The world is created by God, He has got some motive, so if the world, cosmic manifestation, is utilized for His purpose, then it is spiritual. Otherwise, it is material. *Devotee (1): In the Seventh Canto, the second volume, the first chapter in that volume, Prahlāda Mahārāja is talking how the studying of the three Vedas is external and it includes knowledge, though, of education and self*-realization, but he considers it material because it is external study of the Vedas. I don't understand that. Prabhupāda: Anything external is material. *Devotee (1): Self*-realization is included in that list of education and self-realization and other items. *Prabhupāda: Yes, self*-realization, simply understanding "I am not this matter," is also external because there is chance of falldown. But when you are actually engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is positive platform of self-realization. Devotee (2): Just like the brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Brahmeti. *Prabhupāda: Different stages of self*-realization. (pause) Prabhupāda: Today there is no wind at all. Kulādri: Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we explain that our activity is spiritual, what we are doing is spiritual . . . Just like we say the quality of the tape recorder becomes spiritualized when it's used in Kṛṣṇa's service. So the materialists, they don't understand. They say, "Well, the tape recorder will also break, the tapes will also be burned up sometimes." Prabhupāda: That's all right. It will go to Kṛṣṇa. Breaking, where it will go? Hmm? Kulādri: Well they say the chemicals again become . . . Prabhupāda: That chemical, where it will go? Yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante yasmin saṁviśanti (Taittirīya Upaniṣad 3.1). Everything is created from Kṛṣṇa, again it returns to Kṛṣṇa. Kulādri: Then they say then we needn't play Kṛṣṇa conscious music. We might as well play rock and roll if it is going back to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: That is māyā. This is meant for Kṛṣṇa's service. As soon as you do anything else, then it is māyā. Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā (BG 7.14). Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's. But under māyā we suffer; under Kṛṣṇa we enjoy. Kulādri: So if we engage everything here in Kṛṣṇa's service, then the atmosphere will change. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kulādri: They can notice the change in the atmosphere. *Prabhupāda: That is real atmosphere. Sva*-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). Mukti means to stay in the original form. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've heard that you use the example that spirit has form and therefore the body also has similar form, just as a hand has a form in a glove, it's the hand's similar form. So how can we understand that the trees have a certain form? That . . . is there spirit in the form of a tree? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Then how do we explain the transmigration of the soul? Prabhupāda: This outward is a form. What is the difficulty? (to devotees) Discuss. Pradyumna: Just as this human body has a human form, we say that because this body has a form, the soul also must have form. Prabhupāda: So? Devotee (1): Talking about the transmigration, then. Pradyumna: Just as the glove has a certain form because the hand is shaped like that, the material body of a human has that form because the spirit is in that form? And the tree has that form because the spirit is in that form? Prabhupāda: Here difficulty is that the form is fixed up. That is not . . . Just like Kṛṣṇa appears in so many forms; everything is spiritual. So what do you think? Devotee (2): So the form in the spiritual sky is not absolute either? We can take different forms in the spiritual sky? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are also many forms, but all of them are spiritual, the Vṛndāvana. There is tree, there is Yamunā water, there is land, there is cow, there is calf, there is gopas, gopīs—they are all spiritual. Just like from earth you make many forms, but they are earth. You make pots, you make dolls, but they are all earth. Similarly, spiritual world, there are many forms, they are all spiritual. What is the difficulty? Pradyumna: Does that form ever change? That form changes also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Kṛṣṇa is young, and then He's a little older. Prabhupāda: Generally, it does not change, if one likes this type of form. Śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vātsalya, mādhurya. Kulādri: That change is available to anyone to progress from śānta to dāsya? Prabhupāda: That change is not material change. The spiritual bliss is there, either in this form or that form. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that if we serve Kṛṣṇa we will enjoy, and if we serve māyā then we suffer. How can we get over our desire to serve māyā and enjoy separately from Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pradyumna: Says in the material world when we try to enjoy, we suffer. When we try to enjoy we suffer? Then how will we get over our desire? And when we serve Kṛṣṇa, we become happy. But how will we get over our desire to serve māyā? The attachment is strong. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pradyumna: He says how will we get over the desire to serve māyā, to try to enjoy ourselves in this material world? Prabhupāda: Serve Kṛṣṇa. *Pradyumna: It says here that yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). One obtaining this actual service of Kṛṣṇa, when one tastes the service of Kṛṣṇa, then he sees any other gain, he does not consider anything else. "Established thus, one never departs from the truth, and upon gaining this he thinks there is no greater gain." So when you actually taste the service of Kṛṣṇa, then you won't consider anything else to be worthy of your effort. But when we do think something else to be worthy of our effort then it means that we haven't . . . we're not really becoming advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We're not developing. We should try to develop to that point. We have to develop. Prabhupāda says this is the test of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you will not want to depart from Kṛṣṇa consciousness to enjoy himself in material nature. And when one still wants to do that, that means he hasn't advanced to that point of stability in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dṛḍha*-vrata, who's completely fixed in his service. Avasthitiḥ. Yatra sthito na calati. When one is situated there, he doesn't depart from there, he doesn't want to go out from there. So we have to reach that point. Devotee (3): So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if at this platform we are not yet . . . we are still desiring to depart from Kṛṣṇa's service and enjoy, then we are not . . . we have not yet tasted devotional service, what is it that we have tasted that is keeping us temporarily connected to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic injunction: You keep yourself connected with Kṛṣṇa, then you will develop the taste. Just like a jaundice patient does not taste sugar as sweet, but if he continues to take sugar candy, then he will have the real taste for sugar candy—sweet, not bitter. So he has to continue to eat sugar candy continually. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam. Then he'll have the taste. Kulādri: But the patient must be intelligent to keep . . . Even though he does not want . . . Prabhupāda: Patient is always rascal, fool. You cannot expect him to be intelligent. He must agree to the physician's direction. That is intelligence. He must know that he's diseased, he must follow the instruction of the physician. That much will help him. Unless one is rascal, he does not fall sick. As soon as you violate the hygienic principles, you become sick. All commit sinful activities on account of ignorance. So therefore the best advancement of civilization is not to open hospitals, but to give them a lesson that they may not fall sick and go to hospital. That is real . . . But they do not know. They keep the mass of people in ignorance, they fall sick and they come to hospital, and number of hospitals increase—they think it is advancement. This is their idea. So even the Christian, religious persons, they also open hospital to give relief to the patient. So that is not the program. The program is why he should fall sick and come to the hospital? Precaution is better than cure. One comes to the hospital for cure, but why not take the precaution so that he may not have to come to the hospital for cure? That is Vedic civilization. They have different prescribed rules and regulations so that a person may not fall sick. The modern idea is that "Let them fall sick; *we have got hospitals and treat him, and he'll be cured." But he is cured, again he falls sick. That is going on. They have no program for precaution. They have program for cure. But actually, precaution is better than cure. We are taking precaution. So other fools, rascals, they are thinking, "What these people are doing? They have no hospital, they have no this program, that," according to them. Just like our Vivekananda, he prescribed daridra*-nārāyaṇa-sevā. The same thing—hospital. We kill all animals, and the hospital patient is given the meat for improvement of the health. But he does not know that this is not curing; *he is become implicated in his karma. He has to be killed again, and eaten by the other animals. That he does not know. They do not accept karma*-phala. Hmm? The result of fruitive activities, they do not accept. But you have to accept. There is no excuse. If you contaminate some disease, you must suffer from that disease. There is no excuse. *So kriyā*-karma, you have to enjoy or suffer the result of karma. Karma-bandhana. But when you act for Kṛṣṇa, then you are mukta. Yajñārthāt karma anyatra karma (BG 3.9). Karma must be there. If you act for Kṛṣṇa, then it is all right, and if you act for your sense gratification, then there is bondage. If you do not take education, if you remain fools and rascals, then you will suffer and create disturbance for others also. Therefore everyone must be educated, good citizens. It is good for him, good for others. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So you go on reading. Pradyumna: Translation: "One should engage oneself in the practice of yoga with undeviating determination and faith. One should abandon, without exception, all material desires born of false ego and thus control all the senses on all sides by the mind." *Purport: "The yoga practitioner should be determined and should patiently prosecute the practice without deviation. One should be sure of success at the end and pursue this course with great perseverance, not becoming discouraged if there is any delay in the attainment of success. Success is sure for the rigid practitioner. Regarding bhakti*-yoga, Rūpa Gosvāmī says: *'The process of bhakti*-yoga can be executed successfully with full-hearted enthusiasm, perseverance and determination by following the prescribed duties in the association of devotees and by engaging completely in activities of goodness.' As for determination, one should follow the example of the sparrow who lost her eggs in the waves of the ocean. A sparrow laid her eggs on the shore of the ocean, but the big ocean carried away the eggs on its waves. The sparrow became very upset and asked the ocean to return her eggs. The ocean did not even consider her appeal. So the sparrow decided to dry up the ocean. She began to pick out the water in her small beak, and everyone laughed at her for her impossible determination. The news of her activity spread, and at last Garuḍa, the gigantic bird carrier of Lord Viṣṇu, heard it. He became compassionate toward his small sister bird, and so he came to see the sparrow. Garuḍa was very pleased by the determination of the small sparrow, and he promised to help. Thus Garuḍa at once asked the ocean to return her eggs lest he himself take up the work of the sparrow. The ocean was frightened at this, and returned the eggs. Thus the sparrow became happy by the grace of Garuḍa. Similarly, the practice of yoga, especially bhakti-yoga in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, may appear to be a very difficult job, but if anyone follows the principles with great determination, the Lord will surely help, for God helps those who help themselves." Prabhupāda: Now, questions? Pradyumna: Any questions? Devotee (1): So is there ever, for someone whose determination wavers and slackens here and there, is there ever a point where the neophyte devotee is in danger of just forgetting everything and falling, tumbling completely backwards? *Prabhupāda: Everyone is neophyte. He should practice determination, that's all. If he cannot practice, then why should he enter into this association? Let him remain aloof. One who has entered with the determination that "I must practice," so if he cannot practice, then why this make*-show that "I belong to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. I am initiated." Why this farce? He must practice with determination, that "By practicing I'll be success." That is wanted. He has no determination, why should he make a show? Dṛḍha-vrata. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28). Dṛḍha-vrata, that is wanted, determination. Hmm, go on. When one is determined, his success is assured. If he's not determined, then success or failure. Devotee (2): Can one develop determination gradually? *Prabhupāda: Why gradually? When you promise before your spiritual master that no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating, why should you fall down? If you have no determination, why should you promise in presence of the Deity, fire, spiritual master, Vaiṣṇava? Why do you make this farce, if you have no determination? If you want to make it a farce, that depends on you. But you should not. Devotee (2): When we make that promise . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, you should not fall down. That is determination. That is gentleman's determination, that "I have given my promise. Why shall I fall down?" That is determination. "I must respect promise." That is called dṛḍha*-vrata. So he'll success. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we want to cheat, that is another thing. If we have no determination, we should not take up this life. Therefore, chance is given that "Stay with us for six months or one year, be determined. Then be initiated." If you are not determined, what is the use of false initiation? Devotee (2): Sometimes this weakness seems to be . . . Prabhupāda: Weakness there . . . You should rectify weakness. Why you should give any importance to weakness? Weakness is weakness. Rectify it. Kulādri: This promise is the minimum determination. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kulādri: This promise of following four regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds daily, that is the minimum determination. Then, from there, he must increase. *Prabhupāda: Initiation means minimum, just beginning. That is the dictionary meaning, initiation. In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta there is a verse, *(to Pradyumna) Explain it. You understand? Śraddhā, śabde, viśvāsa, sudṛḍha, niścaya. Kṛṣṇe, bhakti, kaile, sarva*-karma, kṛta, haya. Pradyumna: The word śraddhā means faith. So by the word faith, we need firm determination or conviction, śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya. Viśvāsa means faith which is sudṛḍha, very . . . sudṛḍha, dṛḍha means firm, and sudṛḍha means very firmly. Niścaya. Niścaya is used here also, sa niścayena yoktavyaḥ. Yoga is to be engaged in, applied with firm . . . Prabhupāda: Faith. Niścaya means conviction. Pradyumna: Conviction. Kṛṣṇe . . . Prabhupāda: Bhakti kaile. *Pradyumna: Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva kṛta*-karma. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-karma kṛta haya. *Pradyumna: Sarva*-karma kṛta haya. And if one engages, if one performs service to Kṛṣṇa, then everything else becomes accomplished? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Everything else becomes accomplished. If one renders service to Kṛṣṇa, then automatically everything else . . . one has no obligations to the material world. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa will say, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66)? Because by that action everything will be done. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. That means He is cheating? There are so many other occupations, say, veda-dharma, samāja-dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, medical dharma, lawyer dharma. You can manufacture so many occupations. Dharma means occupational duties. But if you take only one occupational duty—to serve Kṛṣṇa—all things will be included. Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is instruction. So to accept this principle means firm determination, firm conviction: "Yes, if I serve Kṛṣṇa, then all my other duties will be automatically done." This is firm conviction. "By one stroke, I'll kill so many birds." *Kulādri: Anartha*-nivṛtti? Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Kulādri: Rūpa Gosvāmī says bhajana*-kriyā and then anārtha-nivṛtti. Then all the unwanted things go away. *Prabhupāda: First of all, beginning with kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva*-karma kṛta haya. So bhakti, beginning is ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅga bhajana-kriyā anartha-nivṛttiḥ (CC Madhya 23.14). The material world means simply creating unnecessary duties. Simply anartha. Any material activities, you take, analyze, it is simply useless. Therefore they are called anartha. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Take for example we say no meat-eating. So what is the difficulty there? I have seen in the airplane, they eat meat, a little piece, not a lump. But because everyone is eating little, little, we require huge number of slaughterhouses. But if one decides, "I have got so many preparations to eat, so why shall I eat little meat? . . . (indistinct) . . . I shall forego," immediately he is saved from so many sinful activities. It is not that he will die if he does not eat a little piece of meat, he will die. He'll not die. We are not dying, and we don't take. So similarly everyone, without eating meat, he can live very nicely. In the whole principle, there is no difficulty. *So on this whole principle this whole world is merged into sinful activities. That is called unnecessary. That is material position—unnecessarily creating trouble. There is no necessity. But on account of ignorance, foolish association, sinful life, more and more and more and more going on. Andhā yathāndhair upagīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And the leaders encouraging: "Yes, you do this. Enjoy life." What is his enjoyment? If anyone sees slaughterhouse, will he enjoy? Hmm? What is . . .? He visits a slaughterhouse, is it enjoyment? But he takes as enjoyment. This is anartha: unnecessary, without any meaning. Mad, just like a madman acts, without any meaning. The monkey acts without any meaning. This is called anartha: unnecessarily creating disturbance. Anartha. . . . anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). If you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all anartha will be finished. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. We are no more interested in unnecessary things. Illicit sex—one side they are encouraging contraceptive method. So why they'll not stop illicit sex, then automatically there is contraceptive method? So one side there is encouraged, contraceptive method, another, unlimited, unrestricted sex. This is their civilization. Why not teach him not to practice illicit sex? Then everything is done automatically. There's no need of contraceptive method. If one is trained up to indulge in sex only for begetting nice children, there is already contraceptive method. There is no necessity of unnecessarily producing cats and dogs children. *So that requires training, determination. So śāstra says you should not become father if you cannot train up your children to save him from death. Who is the father who's training? To save him from the cycle of birth and death means to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if you are not yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, how you can train up your children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? This is determination, that "If I cannot train my children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and thus avoid the botheration of birth and death, I shall not have sex." That determination will save so many troubles. That can be done by practice. By engaging the mind in Kṛṣṇa, it is possible. The more you advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll lose interest in this sex life. In Vaikuṇṭha there is no sex life because the sex pleasure is not the foremost pleasure in the Vaikuṇṭhaloka. The sex pleasure is foremost here in this material world. They have got so much transcendental spiritual pleasure, this sex pleasure—they are astonished: is that pleasure? Phu! (makes spitting sound) Yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāma . . . (Yāmunācārya). That stage is possible. Still there are so many brahmacārīs. So everything depends on practice. Abhyāsa yoga-yuktena (BG 8.8). That requires determination. (aside) Where did you go, to take bath? Pālikā: This house just across. Prabhupāda: There is water? Well? No. Pālikā: There are barrels there, filling them daily. Prabhupāda: Oh. Why not well? Have a big well? Kulādri: They are getting water also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from this well. Your well is also going to that side. Prabhupāda: Yes. Have several wells in all places. That is nice. Is it very expensive? Kulādri: It's expensive. *Prabhupāda: It is more expensive than carrying water and consume petrol? That is laziness. Once you have a well, then you save so much trouble. Get one well in each, our house. It is here very deep, uh? To get well? Tube*-well? But there are so many creeks. Kulādri: We have what is called a spring house. It's pure spring water. It's caught in reservoir. Prabhupāda: Where is it? *Kulādri: At the other farm we have, as well as tube*-well. Prabhupāda: Water must be. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if in the spiritual sky there is no sex life . . . Prabhupāda: You can store the snow. Yes. Big, big hole, and collect the snow, and put it here and cover it, it will stay. Is it not? Kulādri: We have so much water, though, running off the hill, we can make lakes. We have three lakes now. Prabhupāda: Then? Why don't you do it? *Kulādri: You saw the Rādhā*-kuṇḍa in the movie, in the film. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one returns to his svarūpa, his natural form, how does . . . *Prabhupāda: First of all, anartha*-nivṛtti. You are accustomed to so many bad habits. First of all try to rectify it, then talk of svarūpa. Where is your svarūpa? Simply wasting time. A man is diseased, he's thinking, "When I shall be cured I shall eat, go to this hotel, I shall eat like this." First of all cure, then talk of eating this and that. Svarūpa . . . when you are cured, that is svarūpa. So long you are not cured, what is the use of talking svarūpa? First business is cure yourself. Anartha-nivṛtti. That is anartha-nivṛtti. Then svarūpa will come. That is the bābājīs. In Vṛndāvana, you have seen? Siddha-praṇālī. *Pradyumna: Ah, siddha*-praṇālī, siddha-deha. Prabhupāda: They are smoking and having illicit sex with one dozen women—svarūpa. Rascal. This is called sahajiyā, a rascal. Condemned. Where is your svarūpa? Don't talk unnecessarily. First of all come to svarūpa, then talk of svarūpa. Devotee (1): So our motivation should be to get free from birth, disease, old age and death. *Prabhupāda: That is already explained. But you must be determined how to execute devotional service. Without determined devotional service, how we can attain that position? So what is the use of talking, utopian? First business is anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Ādau śraddhā tathaḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15). You adopt this means that you have got full faith that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness will save me." Then you live with devotees who are similarly determined. Then you execute devotional service. Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, you'll be free from all these . . . these are the stages. There is . . . up to anartha-nivṛtti, you have to struggle very hard with determination, and then automatically everything will come. Tato niṣṭhā tato rucis tataḥ, athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ. So before svarūpa, anartha-nivṛtti, don't expect all these. (pause) Prabhupāda: Read. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: This is practice. Pradyumna: "Gradually, step by step, with full conviction, one should become situated in trance by means of intelligence, and thus the mind should be fixed on the self alone and should think of nothing else." Purport: "By proper conviction and intelligence one should gradually cease sense activities. This is called pratyāhāra. The mind, being controlled by conviction, meditation and cessation of the senses, should be situated in trance, or samādhi. At that time there is no longer any danger of becoming engaged in the material conception of life. In other words, although one is involved with matter, as long as the material body exists, one should not think about sense gratification. One should think of no pleasure aside from the pleasure of the Supreme Self. This state is easily attained by directly practicing Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Kulādri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, before you said the patient has no intelligence. Prabhupāda: Therefore he requires spiritual master's guidance. Because he is rascal. What is the use of accepting a spiritual master? If you want to be cured independently, what is the use of calling a physician, consulting a physician? You do it yourself. (pause) Prabhupāda: Whether our cows are left now? We don't find cows. *Kulādri: They are at Govindajī temple. They are at the . . . where we will build Govindajī, at the main farm, Bahulāvana, for Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra, and some at Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana they are kept free to roam around, but at our farm in Bahulāvana they have to be in pastures. Prabhupāda: Last time I saw some cows here. Kulādri: Yes, this pasture. Prabhupāda: Still there? Kulādri: No. Devotee (4): This pasture is through now, is it not? For a while. This pasture is through for a while. It must grow back. They are on another pasture. Kulādri: Today we had three calves born, all female heifers. (pause) Prabhupāda: Yes, go on. Devotee (4): The difficulty is that we cannot understand . . . we cannot feel what pleases Kṛṣṇa now, yet we can feel what pleases us, and that is the difficulty? Prabhupāda: You have no feeling; that everyone knows. Therefore you have to carry out the order of spiritual master, that's all. Devotee (1): If we try to please Kṛṣṇa with all of our service and activities, that automatically brings pleasure to the self? *Prabhupāda: You cannot please Kṛṣṇa directly. You please your spiritual master, Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. If you want to please directly Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. That is concoction. You cannot please. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ. You have to please your spiritual master, then Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Don't jump. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya. What is that song you daily sing? What is that? Pradyumna: "By the words of the spiritual master our mind becomes conclusive from . . ." Prabhupāda: Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't concoct. Don't you sing daily? Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't manufacture ideas. That is dangerous. Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches by His example. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karilā śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī that "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one, so he has chastised Me, that 'Don't try to read Vedānta; chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing." (pause) Prabhupāda: (loud motorcycle in background) Just hear. He has come to this turn. This sound is purposefully created? (motorbike going back and forth through much of the tape) Kulādri: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Just to show that he has a motorcycle? Or what is purpose? Kulādri: They have given us trouble sometimes. Prabhupāda: Demons. Kulādri: When your palace is on the other side, they won't disturb. And we will have walls. Prabhupāda: No. They don't like us. Kulādri: They are doing better than before, but still they are somewhat envious. *Prabhupāda: Everywhere this world is like that. Even the father will give trouble, Prahlāda Mahārāja, what to speak of others. Demon father is giving trouble to a Vaiṣṇava son. And not grown*-up son—five years old, innocent—but he's giving trouble. Devotee (3): When we had sickness, the state police became very interested in us, and today a state policeman stopped me and asked if you were here. So he seems to be paying special attention that you are here now, and he's very interested. Prabhupāda: However demon may be, they can appreciate that these are ideal characters. *Devotee (4): All these state police, they purchased Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee (4): All these state police, they purchased Bhagavad*-gītā. (sound of motorcycles) Prabhupāda: Oh. (end) (Garden Conversation) *Prabhupāda: . . .production of it's external. Bahir*-aṅga-śakti. But the śakti, the energy, is coming from the Supreme. Just like here we find this place is shadow and that place is sunshine. Both these places are due to the sun. When there is no sun, there is no such distinction that "This is shining, sunny, and this is shadow." So this distinction is there so long we do not know the real source. But if we know the real source, we can understand that this distinction is temporary. Actually the energy is coming from the Supreme. So shadow has come from Supreme, and light has also come from the Supreme. So there is no distinction, ultimately. Just like earring, golden, manufactured from gold, and the gold which is not manufactured. So this distinction—manufactured or not manufactured, secondary. But really the earring is also gold, and the lump of gold is also gold. So why should we say that earring is false? It is also gold. In relationship with the supreme source, janmādy asya yataḥ ( SB 1.1.1), there is no such distinction. *In another place, while Vyāsadeva was instructed by Nārada, he said, idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaro (SB 1.5.20). This viśva, the virāṭ*-rūpa, is also Bhagavān, but it appears different from Him. Just like the shadow appears different from the sunshine, but actually, taking the central point of emanation, it is different manifestation. That's all. Tree—there are so many varieties. One is trunk, one is branch, one is twig, one is leaf, one is . . . So the varieties are there, but the tree is one, the root. So ultimately there is no variety; *only one. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). The difference is the Māyāvādīs, they abruptly say everything is one. Not everything is one. The trunk is not one with the leaf, but ultimately, because the root is the cause, so there is no difference between the trunk and the leaf. This is acintya*-bhedābheda philosophy, simultaneously one and different. On the whole, everything is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why should we think this world is mithyā when it is created by God? Does God create anything false? No. When it is created by God . . . When we think that "I create some business, some factory, that is my pleasure," but if somebody else thinks it, it is for his pleasure, that is māyā. The world is created by God, He has got some motive, so if the world, cosmic manifestation, is utilized for His purpose, then it is spiritual. Otherwise, it is material. *Devotee (1): In the Seventh Canto, the second volume, the first chapter in that volume, Prahlāda Mahārāja is talking how the studying of the three Vedas is external and it includes knowledge, though, of education and self*-realization, but he considers it material because it is external study of the Vedas. I don't understand that. Prabhupāda: Anything external is material. *Devotee (1): Self*-realization is included in that list of education and self-realization and other items. *Prabhupāda: Yes, self*-realization, simply understanding "I am not this matter," is also external because there is chance of falldown. But when you are actually engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is positive platform of self-realization. Devotee (2): Just like the brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Brahmeti. *Prabhupāda: Different stages of self*-realization. (pause) Prabhupāda: Today there is no wind at all. Kulādri: Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we explain that our activity is spiritual, what we are doing is spiritual . . . Just like we say the quality of the tape recorder becomes spiritualized when it's used in Kṛṣṇa's service. So the materialists, they don't understand. They say, "Well, the tape recorder will also break, the tapes will also be burned up sometimes." Prabhupāda: That's all right. It will go to Kṛṣṇa. Breaking, where it will go? Hmm? Kulādri: Well they say the chemicals again become . . . Prabhupāda: That chemical, where it will go? Yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante yasmin saṁviśanti (Taittirīya Upaniṣad 3.1). Everything is created from Kṛṣṇa, again it returns to Kṛṣṇa. Kulādri: Then they say then we needn't play Kṛṣṇa conscious music. We might as well play rock and roll if it is going back to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: That is māyā. This is meant for Kṛṣṇa's service. As soon as you do anything else, then it is māyā. Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā (BG 7.14). Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's. But under māyā we suffer; under Kṛṣṇa we enjoy. Kulādri: So if we engage everything here in Kṛṣṇa's service, then the atmosphere will change. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kulādri: They can notice the change in the atmosphere. *Prabhupāda: That is real atmosphere. Sva*-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). Mukti means to stay in the original form. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've heard that you use the example that spirit has form and therefore the body also has similar form, just as a hand has a form in a glove, it's the hand's similar form. So how can we understand that the trees have a certain form? That . . . is there spirit in the form of a tree? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Then how do we explain the transmigration of the soul? Prabhupāda: This outward is a form. What is the difficulty? (to devotees) Discuss. Pradyumna: Just as this human body has a human form, we say that because this body has a form, the soul also must have form. Prabhupāda: So? Devotee (1): Talking about the transmigration, then. Pradyumna: Just as the glove has a certain form because the hand is shaped like that, the material body of a human has that form because the spirit is in that form? And the tree has that form because the spirit is in that form? Prabhupāda: Here difficulty is that the form is fixed up. That is not . . . Just like Kṛṣṇa appears in so many forms; everything is spiritual. So what do you think? Devotee (2): So the form in the spiritual sky is not absolute either? We can take different forms in the spiritual sky? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are also many forms, but all of them are spiritual, the Vṛndāvana. There is tree, there is Yamunā water, there is land, there is cow, there is calf, there is gopas, gopīs—they are all spiritual. Just like from earth you make many forms, but they are earth. You make pots, you make dolls, but they are all earth. Similarly, spiritual world, there are many forms, they are all spiritual. What is the difficulty? Pradyumna: Does that form ever change? That form changes also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Kṛṣṇa is young, and then He's a little older. Prabhupāda: Generally, it does not change, if one likes this type of form. Śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vātsalya, mādhurya. Kulādri: That change is available to anyone to progress from śānta to dāsya? Prabhupāda: That change is not material change. The spiritual bliss is there, either in this form or that form. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that if we serve Kṛṣṇa we will enjoy, and if we serve māyā then we suffer. How can we get over our desire to serve māyā and enjoy separately from Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pradyumna: Says in the material world when we try to enjoy, we suffer. When we try to enjoy we suffer? Then how will we get over our desire? And when we serve Kṛṣṇa, we become happy. But how will we get over our desire to serve māyā? The attachment is strong. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pradyumna: He says how will we get over the desire to serve māyā, to try to enjoy ourselves in this material world? Prabhupāda: Serve Kṛṣṇa. *Pradyumna: It says here that yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). One obtaining this actual service of Kṛṣṇa, when one tastes the service of Kṛṣṇa, then he sees any other gain, he does not consider anything else. "Established thus, one never departs from the truth, and upon gaining this he thinks there is no greater gain." So when you actually taste the service of Kṛṣṇa, then you won't consider anything else to be worthy of your effort. But when we do think something else to be worthy of our effort then it means that we haven't . . . we're not really becoming advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We're not developing. We should try to develop to that point. We have to develop. Prabhupāda says this is the test of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you will not want to depart from Kṛṣṇa consciousness to enjoy himself in material nature. And when one still wants to do that, that means he hasn't advanced to that point of stability in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dṛḍha*-vrata, who's completely fixed in his service. Avasthitiḥ. Yatra sthito na calati. When one is situated there, he doesn't depart from there, he doesn't want to go out from there. So we have to reach that point. Devotee (3): So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if at this platform we are not yet . . . we are still desiring to depart from Kṛṣṇa's service and enjoy, then we are not . . . we have not yet tasted devotional service, what is it that we have tasted that is keeping us temporarily connected to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic injunction: You keep yourself connected with Kṛṣṇa, then you will develop the taste. Just like a jaundice patient does not taste sugar as sweet, but if he continues to take sugar candy, then he will have the real taste for sugar candy—sweet, not bitter. So he has to continue to eat sugar candy continually. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam. Then he'll have the taste. Kulādri: But the patient must be intelligent to keep . . . Even though he does not want . . . Prabhupāda: Patient is always rascal, fool. You cannot expect him to be intelligent. He must agree to the physician's direction. That is intelligence. He must know that he's diseased, he must follow the instruction of the physician. That much will help him. Unless one is rascal, he does not fall sick. As soon as you violate the hygienic principles, you become sick. All commit sinful activities on account of ignorance. So therefore the best advancement of civilization is not to open hospitals, but to give them a lesson that they may not fall sick and go to hospital. That is real . . . But they do not know. They keep the mass of people in ignorance, they fall sick and they come to hospital, and number of hospitals increase—they think it is advancement. This is their idea. So even the Christian, religious persons, they also open hospital to give relief to the patient. So that is not the program. The program is why he should fall sick and come to the hospital? Precaution is better than cure. One comes to the hospital for cure, but why not take the precaution so that he may not have to come to the hospital for cure? That is Vedic civilization. They have different prescribed rules and regulations so that a person may not fall sick. The modern idea is that "Let them fall sick; *we have got hospitals and treat him, and he'll be cured." But he is cured, again he falls sick. That is going on. They have no program for precaution. They have program for cure. But actually, precaution is better than cure. We are taking precaution. So other fools, rascals, they are thinking, "What these people are doing? They have no hospital, they have no this program, that," according to them. Just like our Vivekananda, he prescribed daridra*-nārāyaṇa-sevā. The same thing—hospital. We kill all animals, and the hospital patient is given the meat for improvement of the health. But he does not know that this is not curing; *he is become implicated in his karma. He has to be killed again, and eaten by the other animals. That he does not know. They do not accept karma*-phala. Hmm? The result of fruitive activities, they do not accept. But you have to accept. There is no excuse. If you contaminate some disease, you must suffer from that disease. There is no excuse. *So kriyā*-karma, you have to enjoy or suffer the result of karma. Karma-bandhana. But when you act for Kṛṣṇa, then you are mukta. Yajñārthāt karma anyatra karma (BG 3.9). Karma must be there. If you act for Kṛṣṇa, then it is all right, and if you act for your sense gratification, then there is bondage. If you do not take education, if you remain fools and rascals, then you will suffer and create disturbance for others also. Therefore everyone must be educated, good citizens. It is good for him, good for others. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So you go on reading. Pradyumna: Translation: "One should engage oneself in the practice of yoga with undeviating determination and faith. One should abandon, without exception, all material desires born of false ego and thus control all the senses on all sides by the mind." *Purport: "The yoga practitioner should be determined and should patiently prosecute the practice without deviation. One should be sure of success at the end and pursue this course with great perseverance, not becoming discouraged if there is any delay in the attainment of success. Success is sure for the rigid practitioner. Regarding bhakti*-yoga, Rūpa Gosvāmī says: *'The process of bhakti*-yoga can be executed successfully with full-hearted enthusiasm, perseverance and determination by following the prescribed duties in the association of devotees and by engaging completely in activities of goodness.' As for determination, one should follow the example of the sparrow who lost her eggs in the waves of the ocean. A sparrow laid her eggs on the shore of the ocean, but the big ocean carried away the eggs on its waves. The sparrow became very upset and asked the ocean to return her eggs. The ocean did not even consider her appeal. So the sparrow decided to dry up the ocean. She began to pick out the water in her small beak, and everyone laughed at her for her impossible determination. The news of her activity spread, and at last Garuḍa, the gigantic bird carrier of Lord Viṣṇu, heard it. He became compassionate toward his small sister bird, and so he came to see the sparrow. Garuḍa was very pleased by the determination of the small sparrow, and he promised to help. Thus Garuḍa at once asked the ocean to return her eggs lest he himself take up the work of the sparrow. The ocean was frightened at this, and returned the eggs. Thus the sparrow became happy by the grace of Garuḍa. Similarly, the practice of yoga, especially bhakti-yoga in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, may appear to be a very difficult job, but if anyone follows the principles with great determination, the Lord will surely help, for God helps those who help themselves." Prabhupāda: Now, questions? Pradyumna: Any questions? Devotee (1): So is there ever, for someone whose determination wavers and slackens here and there, is there ever a point where the neophyte devotee is in danger of just forgetting everything and falling, tumbling completely backwards? *Prabhupāda: Everyone is neophyte. He should practice determination, that's all. If he cannot practice, then why should he enter into this association? Let him remain aloof. One who has entered with the determination that "I must practice," so if he cannot practice, then why this make*-show that "I belong to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. I am initiated." Why this farce? He must practice with determination, that "By practicing I'll be success." That is wanted. He has no determination, why should he make a show? Dṛḍha-vrata. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28). Dṛḍha-vrata, that is wanted, determination. Hmm, go on. When one is determined, his success is assured. If he's not determined, then success or failure. Devotee (2): Can one develop determination gradually? *Prabhupāda: Why gradually? When you promise before your spiritual master that no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating, why should you fall down? If you have no determination, why should you promise in presence of the Deity, fire, spiritual master, Vaiṣṇava? Why do you make this farce, if you have no determination? If you want to make it a farce, that depends on you. But you should not. Devotee (2): When we make that promise . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, you should not fall down. That is determination. That is gentleman's determination, that "I have given my promise. Why shall I fall down?" That is determination. "I must respect promise." That is called dṛḍha*-vrata. So he'll success. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we want to cheat, that is another thing. If we have no determination, we should not take up this life. Therefore, chance is given that "Stay with us for six months or one year, be determined. Then be initiated." If you are not determined, what is the use of false initiation? Devotee (2): Sometimes this weakness seems to be . . . Prabhupāda: Weakness there . . . You should rectify weakness. Why you should give any importance to weakness? Weakness is weakness. Rectify it. Kulādri: This promise is the minimum determination. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kulādri: This promise of following four regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds daily, that is the minimum determination. Then, from there, he must increase. *Prabhupāda: Initiation means minimum, just beginning. That is the dictionary meaning, initiation. In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta there is a verse, *(to Pradyumna) Explain it. You understand? Śraddhā, śabde, viśvāsa, sudṛḍha, niścaya. Kṛṣṇe, bhakti, kaile, sarva*-karma, kṛta, haya. Pradyumna: The word śraddhā means faith. So by the word faith, we need firm determination or conviction, śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya. Viśvāsa means faith which is sudṛḍha, very . . . sudṛḍha, dṛḍha means firm, and sudṛḍha means very firmly. Niścaya. Niścaya is used here also, sa niścayena yoktavyaḥ. Yoga is to be engaged in, applied with firm . . . Prabhupāda: Faith. Niścaya means conviction. Pradyumna: Conviction. Kṛṣṇe . . . Prabhupāda: Bhakti kaile. *Pradyumna: Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva kṛta*-karma. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-karma kṛta haya. *Pradyumna: Sarva*-karma kṛta haya. And if one engages, if one performs service to Kṛṣṇa, then everything else becomes accomplished? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Everything else becomes accomplished. If one renders service to Kṛṣṇa, then automatically everything else . . . one has no obligations to the material world. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa will say, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66)? Because by that action everything will be done. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. That means He is cheating? There are so many other occupations, say, veda-dharma, samāja-dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, medical dharma, lawyer dharma. You can manufacture so many occupations. Dharma means occupational duties. But if you take only one occupational duty—to serve Kṛṣṇa—all things will be included. Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is instruction. So to accept this principle means firm determination, firm conviction: "Yes, if I serve Kṛṣṇa, then all my other duties will be automatically done." This is firm conviction. "By one stroke, I'll kill so many birds." *Kulādri: Anartha*-nivṛtti? Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Kulādri: Rūpa Gosvāmī says bhajana*-kriyā and then anārtha-nivṛtti. Then all the unwanted things go away. *Prabhupāda: First of all, beginning with kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva*-karma kṛta haya. So bhakti, beginning is ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅga bhajana-kriyā anartha-nivṛttiḥ (CC Madhya 23.14). The material world means simply creating unnecessary duties. Simply anartha. Any material activities, you take, analyze, it is simply useless. Therefore they are called anartha. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Take for example we say no meat-eating. So what is the difficulty there? I have seen in the airplane, they eat meat, a little piece, not a lump. But because everyone is eating little, little, we require huge number of slaughterhouses. But if one decides, "I have got so many preparations to eat, so why shall I eat little meat? . . . (indistinct) . . . I shall forego," immediately he is saved from so many sinful activities. It is not that he will die if he does not eat a little piece of meat, he will die. He'll not die. We are not dying, and we don't take. So similarly everyone, without eating meat, he can live very nicely. In the whole principle, there is no difficulty. *So on this whole principle this whole world is merged into sinful activities. That is called unnecessary. That is material position—unnecessarily creating trouble. There is no necessity. But on account of ignorance, foolish association, sinful life, more and more and more and more going on. Andhā yathāndhair upagīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And the leaders encouraging: "Yes, you do this. Enjoy life." What is his enjoyment? If anyone sees slaughterhouse, will he enjoy? Hmm? What is . . .? He visits a slaughterhouse, is it enjoyment? But he takes as enjoyment. This is anartha: unnecessary, without any meaning. Mad, just like a madman acts, without any meaning. The monkey acts without any meaning. This is called anartha: unnecessarily creating disturbance. Anartha. . . . anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). If you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all anartha will be finished. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. We are no more interested in unnecessary things. Illicit sex—one side they are encouraging contraceptive method. So why they'll not stop illicit sex, then automatically there is contraceptive method? So one side there is encouraged, contraceptive method, another, unlimited, unrestricted sex. This is their civilization. Why not teach him not to practice illicit sex? Then everything is done automatically. There's no need of contraceptive method. If one is trained up to indulge in sex only for begetting nice children, there is already contraceptive method. There is no necessity of unnecessarily producing cats and dogs children. *So that requires training, determination. So śāstra says you should not become father if you cannot train up your children to save him from death. Who is the father who's training? To save him from the cycle of birth and death means to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if you are not yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, how you can train up your children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? This is determination, that "If I cannot train my children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and thus avoid the botheration of birth and death, I shall not have sex." That determination will save so many troubles. That can be done by practice. By engaging the mind in Kṛṣṇa, it is possible. The more you advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll lose interest in this sex life. In Vaikuṇṭha there is no sex life because the sex pleasure is not the foremost pleasure in the Vaikuṇṭhaloka. The sex pleasure is foremost here in this material world. They have got so much transcendental spiritual pleasure, this sex pleasure—they are astonished: is that pleasure? Phu! (makes spitting sound) Yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāma . . . (Yāmunācārya). That stage is possible. Still there are so many brahmacārīs. So everything depends on practice. Abhyāsa yoga-yuktena (BG 8.8). That requires determination. (aside) Where did you go, to take bath? Pālikā: This house just across. Prabhupāda: There is water? Well? No. Pālikā: There are barrels there, filling them daily. Prabhupāda: Oh. Why not well? Have a big well? Kulādri: They are getting water also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from this well. Your well is also going to that side. Prabhupāda: Yes. Have several wells in all places. That is nice. Is it very expensive? Kulādri: It's expensive. *Prabhupāda: It is more expensive than carrying water and consume petrol? That is laziness. Once you have a well, then you save so much trouble. Get one well in each, our house. It is here very deep, uh? To get well? Tube*-well? But there are so many creeks. Kulādri: We have what is called a spring house. It's pure spring water. It's caught in reservoir. Prabhupāda: Where is it? *Kulādri: At the other farm we have, as well as tube*-well. Prabhupāda: Water must be. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if in the spiritual sky there is no sex life . . . Prabhupāda: You can store the snow. Yes. Big, big hole, and collect the snow, and put it here and cover it, it will stay. Is it not? Kulādri: We have so much water, though, running off the hill, we can make lakes. We have three lakes now. Prabhupāda: Then? Why don't you do it? *Kulādri: You saw the Rādhā*-kuṇḍa in the movie, in the film. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one returns to his svarūpa, his natural form, how does . . . *Prabhupāda: First of all, anartha*-nivṛtti. You are accustomed to so many bad habits. First of all try to rectify it, then talk of svarūpa. Where is your svarūpa? Simply wasting time. A man is diseased, he's thinking, "When I shall be cured I shall eat, go to this hotel, I shall eat like this." First of all cure, then talk of eating this and that. Svarūpa . . . when you are cured, that is svarūpa. So long you are not cured, what is the use of talking svarūpa? First business is cure yourself. Anartha-nivṛtti. That is anartha-nivṛtti. Then svarūpa will come. That is the bābājīs. In Vṛndāvana, you have seen? Siddha-praṇālī. *Pradyumna: Ah, siddha*-praṇālī, siddha-deha. Prabhupāda: They are smoking and having illicit sex with one dozen women—svarūpa. Rascal. This is called sahajiyā, a rascal. Condemned. Where is your svarūpa? Don't talk unnecessarily. First of all come to svarūpa, then talk of svarūpa. Devotee (1): So our motivation should be to get free from birth, disease, old age and death. *Prabhupāda: That is already explained. But you must be determined how to execute devotional service. Without determined devotional service, how we can attain that position? So what is the use of talking, utopian? First business is anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Ādau śraddhā tathaḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15). You adopt this means that you have got full faith that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness will save me." Then you live with devotees who are similarly determined. Then you execute devotional service. Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, you'll be free from all these . . . these are the stages. There is . . . up to anartha-nivṛtti, you have to struggle very hard with determination, and then automatically everything will come. Tato niṣṭhā tato rucis tataḥ, athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ. So before svarūpa, anartha-nivṛtti, don't expect all these. (pause) Prabhupāda: Read. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: This is practice. Pradyumna: "Gradually, step by step, with full conviction, one should become situated in trance by means of intelligence, and thus the mind should be fixed on the self alone and should think of nothing else." Purport: "By proper conviction and intelligence one should gradually cease sense activities. This is called pratyāhāra. The mind, being controlled by conviction, meditation and cessation of the senses, should be situated in trance, or samādhi. At that time there is no longer any danger of becoming engaged in the material conception of life. In other words, although one is involved with matter, as long as the material body exists, one should not think about sense gratification. One should think of no pleasure aside from the pleasure of the Supreme Self. This state is easily attained by directly practicing Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Kulādri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, before you said the patient has no intelligence. Prabhupāda: Therefore he requires spiritual master's guidance. Because he is rascal. What is the use of accepting a spiritual master? If you want to be cured independently, what is the use of calling a physician, consulting a physician? You do it yourself. (pause) Prabhupāda: Whether our cows are left now? We don't find cows. *Kulādri: They are at Govindajī temple. They are at the . . . where we will build Govindajī, at the main farm, Bahulāvana, for Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra, and some at Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana they are kept free to roam around, but at our farm in Bahulāvana they have to be in pastures. Prabhupāda: Last time I saw some cows here. Kulādri: Yes, this pasture. Prabhupāda: Still there? Kulādri: No. Devotee (4): This pasture is through now, is it not? For a while. This pasture is through for a while. It must grow back. They are on another pasture. Kulādri: Today we had three calves born, all female heifers. (pause) Prabhupāda: Yes, go on. Devotee (4): The difficulty is that we cannot understand . . . we cannot feel what pleases Kṛṣṇa now, yet we can feel what pleases us, and that is the difficulty? Prabhupāda: You have no feeling; that everyone knows. Therefore you have to carry out the order of spiritual master, that's all. Devotee (1): If we try to please Kṛṣṇa with all of our service and activities, that automatically brings pleasure to the self? *Prabhupāda: You cannot please Kṛṣṇa directly. You please your spiritual master, Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. If you want to please directly Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. That is concoction. You cannot please. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ. You have to please your spiritual master, then Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Don't jump. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya. What is that song you daily sing? What is that? Pradyumna: "By the words of the spiritual master our mind becomes conclusive from . . ." Prabhupāda: Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't concoct. Don't you sing daily? Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't manufacture ideas. That is dangerous. Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches by His example. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karilā śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī that "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one, so he has chastised Me, that 'Don't try to read Vedānta; chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing." (pause) Prabhupāda: (loud motorcycle in background) Just hear. He has come to this turn. This sound is purposefully created? (motorbike going back and forth through much of the tape) Kulādri: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Just to show that he has a motorcycle? Or what is purpose? Kulādri: They have given us trouble sometimes. Prabhupāda: Demons. Kulādri: When your palace is on the other side, they won't disturb. And we will have walls. Prabhupāda: No. They don't like us. Kulādri: They are doing better than before, but still they are somewhat envious. *Prabhupāda: Everywhere this world is like that. Even the father will give trouble, Prahlāda Mahārāja, what to speak of others. Demon father is giving trouble to a Vaiṣṇava son. And not grown*-up son—five years old, innocent—but he's giving trouble. Devotee (3): When we had sickness, the state police became very interested in us, and today a state policeman stopped me and asked if you were here. So he seems to be paying special attention that you are here now, and he's very interested. Prabhupāda: However demon may be, they can appreciate that these are ideal characters. *Devotee (4): All these state police, they purchased Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee (4): All these state police, they purchased Bhagavad*-gītā. (sound of motorcycles) Prabhupāda: Oh. (end) Prabhupāda: So, what news? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we've distributed about 70,000 magazines so far this month. So I think we'll reach 100,000 in this month. Even though we are getting much harassment from the police, still we are going on. Prabhupāda: Why harassment? What is the fault? (break) Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They are mostly godless, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They see us as a nuisance to the public. We are threatening their sense gratification. Kīrtanānanda: What fault did Prahlāda have? Prabhupāda: Sense gratification, we are refusing them? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We are threatening their sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So it is bad? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: It is bad for their way of life. Just like Prahlāda was preaching to his school friends. And I think almost 20,000 big books so far. Prabhupāda: "So far" means? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Up to this month, for the first three weeks. Hari-śauri: Means there's one more, one more week. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Nine days left. Prabhupāda: What is your party doing? Kīrtanānanda: What is what? Prabhupāda: Your party, selling books? Kīrtanānanda: I don't know what the figures are. Prabhupāda: No, your line is this farming. Kīrtanānanda: Per capita, we distribute more books. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: Per man, we distribute more books than they do. I think per man we distribute more than anybody in ISKCON. Prabhupāda: And still they are maintaining this farm. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And building very nice buildings. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Very nice projects they are building. Prabhupāda: This project should be advanced—plain living, high thinking. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I think we'll take around that film of New Vrindavan to all the colleges this year when we are preaching, and show it to the students as our practical example. Prabhupāda: This is nasty civilization, unnecessarily increasing necessities of life. Anartha. Kīrtanānanda: We would not have understood you if you had said that eight, ten years ago. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: Ten years ago I know I could not have understood you if you had said that. Now I understand a little bit. *Prabhupāda: Now suppose these electric light. So, crude form of light, we grow some castor seed, everything from the earth. This also you are getting from earth, petroleum, and running on machine, and electricity is generated. But really you are getting the impetus from the earth. As soon as the petroleum supply is stopped, everything stopped. But for this purpose you have to search out petroleum from the middle of ocean, boring. Therefore it is ugra*-karma. The purpose is that you grow some castor seed, press it, get oil, put in any pot, and one wick, the light is there. Light is there. So even understanding that you have improved the lighting system, but that is not the only necessity of my life. But to improve from the castor seed lamp, castor oil lamp, to this electricity, you have to work so hard. You have to go to the middle of ocean and drill it and get out petroleum and . . . in this way your real business of life is finished. The energy and the intelligence you got for your self-realization or your, this precarious position, constantly dying and taking birth in various species of life, this is your problem, and this was to be solved in human life, you have got advanced intelligence. But that intelligence is utilized from castor seed lamp to the electric lamp. That's all. Just try to understand. What is that improvement? And for this improving from castor seed oil lamp to electricity lamp, you forget your real business. You lost yourself. This civilization is going on. This is called māyā. For some fictitious happiness you lose your whole purpose of life. It is difficult to understand, but the fact is there. But you are under the control of nature; you have to give up this body. All right, you make very nice arrangement to live here, nature will not allow you to live. You must die. And after death you are going to get another body. So in this body, working for high grade electricity lamp, you work so hard, have got your own business, and next life, by the laws of nature if you get the body of a dog, then what is the benefit? That you cannot check. What is the answer? Hmm? Kulādri: Simple living, high thinking. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kulādri: Simple living. Prabhupāda: No, here is the charge. Now what is your answer? In this life you are living very comfortably, next life if I'm going to be a dog, then this is the charge. Now how this class of men will answer it? Can he deny that he's not going to be a dog? Kīrtanānanda: He says he doesn't believe it. *Prabhupāda: You believe or not believe. Just like this child, it is boy, he does not know anything. But I know, his mother knows, his father knows that he's going to be young man. If he says, "No, I am not going to be young man," that is childish. That is childish. But the father, mother, friends know that the boy is going to grow a young man, so he should be educated and he should be properly situated. That is the guardian's business. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. So that he doesn't know, that does not mean it is not fact. So similarly, if rascals say, "I don't believe it," that's not a fact. He is a rascal, mad, he may say so, but that is not the fact. Karaṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgasya ( BG 13.22). Real fact is that he'll have to accept a body according to the quality of development. Kīrtanānanda: But what if they say that "Actually, this life of growing the castor seed is very difficult, farming is very difficult. It is easier to go to the factory for eight hours, and then I come home with my money and I enjoy." Prabhupāda: No, you enjoy, but by enjoying, if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Your real business is that you have got this human form of body to improve your next life. You are going to have a next life. Suppose you are going to be a dog. Is that success? So you must know the science that instead of becoming dog, how shall you become God. That is intelligence. Kīrtanānanda: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to dig a well? Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to . . . *Prabhupāda: No, you require lamp. So you finish that lamping business as simply as possible. In the balance time you save, you improve your self*-realization. That is the life. Just like this child, he wants to play. He does not go to school, does not take an education, and he improves type of toils, toys, he's engaged in improved type of football playing, and . . . then is that very good intelligence? Kīrtanānanda: But nobody works longer hours than the farmer. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: No one works harder than the farmer. The farmer has to work very hard. Prabhupāda: No, our point is that if you think that electricity improvement is better than farming, we have no objection. But if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Kīrtanānanda: No, of course not. *Prabhupāda: That is our point. Our real business is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So simply for improving the condition of life, the necessities of life, if I forget my real business, is that intelligent? Therefore it is said duṣkṛtinaḥ. Kṛti means merit. But merit is being utilized for sinful activities. Take for example the meat*-eaters. When man was . . . the uncivilized man is still there. In the uncivilized way they are living in the jungle. They require to eat something. So they stone over an animal going, and the animal dies, and then they eat. Now instead of killing the animal by stoning, if you have discovered scientific machine in the slaughterhouse to kill the animal, is that improvement? If you think this is advancement, "Now we have discovered very technical machine. Instead of stoning one animal, killing, it takes so much time, hundreds and thousands of animals you can kill in one hour," do you think that is improvement? That is going on. They think this is improvement. When we were uncivilized, we were stoning some animal and killing and eating, now we are . . . business is the same—animal killing and eating—but we have improved the machine how to kill. This is going on. This is going on as advancement of civilization. Hmm? What is your answer? Is that advancement of civilization? Now you are civilized, instead of killing the animal, you just take milk from it without killing and make so many nice preparations, and that is civilization. But killing is sinful. You have no right to kill any animal, even an ant, because you cannot give life to anyone. It is nature's law, God's law. So infringement on the laws of nature or God, it is sinful activities. So you are utilizing your merit for this sinful activity. Therefore it is called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Merit is there, but it is utilized for sinful activities. That is defect of the modern civilization. Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember once you said . . . Prabhupāda: These questions that "I believe," "I don't believe," you are rascal; *what is the meaning of your believe or not believing? You are, after all, a rascal. Just like a child will say something, "I don't believe." The mother will say, "You are rascal. You must go to school." So rascals believe or not believe, what is the meaning? Mūḍha. It is the law of nature. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). The example is given that this boy will change his body, dehāntara-prāptir. He'll become a young boy, young man. This body will not remain. What is the difficulty to understand, "Yes, this body will not remain"? While he came out of the womb of the mother, that was another body. But these rascals, they do not understand it. It is very difficult to deal with the rascals, that's a fact, but . . . whatever they are doing is all rascaldom, that's all. And forgetting their real business. So your son, does he believe that he's going to be a young man? (asks child) You believe? (laughs) Huh? What is your . . . Kulaśekhara: I remember once when we were staying at John Lennon's estate, you said to me . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Kulaśekhara: At John Lennon's estate, remember? In London. You said to me, the tractor, you said, this is the cause of all the trouble. That it took all the work from the young men, and they went to the city and became entangled in the sense gratification in the cities. So I've noticed in the city there's much more passion, but living in the country is simpler. Prabhupāda: Yes. Passion there must be. When you have got the facility, naturally we are lusty, and we have got the facility, then we take to it. Kulaśekhara: The country is more peaceful. It's easier to think of spiritual life. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Less disease. Less brain*-taxing. Everything is less. So balance time, utilize for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if you have got temple, it is very happy life. Just for your food work little, and balance time engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is ideal life. (pause) Prabhupāda: Just see minute fibers on the flower. Can anyone manufacture this? So small fibers. And how brilliant it is. If you study only one flower, you become God conscious. There is a machine which we call nature. From that machine, everything is coming. But how machine is perfect? And who has discovered this machine? Kulaśekhara: In London you said they do not know that the butterflies and flowers are painted, but Kṛṣṇa paints them with thought. *Prabhupāda: Yes. How you can expect without painting it has come so beautiful? This is foolishness, "nature." What is this nature? Everything is being done by the machine of Kṛṣṇa. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (CC Madhya 13.65, purport). Anyway, improve this mode of life. Live in open place, produce your food grain, produce your milk, save time, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Plain living, high thinking—ideal life. Artificial necessities of life do increase your so*-called comfort, but if you forget your real business, that is suicidal. We want to stop this suicidal policy. We don't want to stop the modern advancement of technology, although the so-called advancement technology is suicidal. But we don't talk of this. (laughter) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore given a simple formula—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even in your technological factories, you can chant. What is the wrong there? You go on pulling on with your machine and chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: They know that if people take up the chanting, gradually they will give up this technology. Prabhupāda: That is, of course. Kīrtanānanda: You are actually putting the seeds of their destruction. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, what is destruction? It is, rather, construction. (laughter) He'll live. He'll live forever. This is destruction. You have to change body. But our method, this tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9): you don't get anymore material body. So that is saving. And without this? Tathā dehāntara*-praptir. Then you have to accept another body. So which is better: to accept another material body or no more accepting material body? Which is better? But as soon as you accept material body, you have to suffer. Material body means suffering. So that requires knowledge. If we finish our suffering up to this body, that is intelligent. And if we create another body for suffering, is that intelligent? That you have to . . . unless you understand Kṛṣṇa, you have to accept. There is no alternative. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They are so dull they cannot understand this simple truth, that as the child, boy, is accepting another body, we have to accept another body. They cannot understand. So dull brain. It will take five hundred years to teach them this very simple fact. Huh? Their education is so advanced. (laughter) Therefore mūḍha, the word is used. So-called education keeps them as an ass. Cannot understand the simple truth. (pause) Prabhupāda: So everyone is getting milk? How much? Kīrtanānanda: As much as they want. Prabhupāda: As much as they want, then jaundice. (laughter) Too much is not good. They may take minimum half pound per head. Kīrtanānanda: Minimum. Prabhupāda: Minimum. And maximum one pound. Not more than that. But "Because there is enough, let us eat," no. That is not good. But children must get at least one pound milk. If they drink more milk they become stout and strong. Kīrtanānanda: They get more than one pound. They get at least two pounds. Prabhupāda: Then their life is built up strong, and nice brain to understand. Do they not see the benefit of the society, that we are not killing children, we are maintaining them with sufficient milk? Is it not better civilization? And they are, for fear of overpopulation, they are killing. The mother is killing the child. Is that civilization? *Kīrtanānanda: But in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that those in the mode of ignorance, they take irreligion to be religion and religion to be irreligion. *Prabhupāda: No, religion . . . there is no religion for them, but there is no morality even. Here we are having so many children. We don't brag that "We cannot maintain these children. Kill them." We never say that. Never mind. Let them be trained up as Kṛṣṇa conscious, live comfortably, take milk. So which is better civilization? Running with motorcar, put*-put-put-put-put-put-put-put and killing child? Is that civilization? Kīrtanānanda: Most of these children are not even our own. They have been taken in from . . . Prabhupāda: Just see, that means we welcome. Kīrtanānanda: . . . mothers without fathers, and . . . Prabhupāda: That means we welcome and they kill. So why do they not find the distinction between this civilization, that civilization? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have no arguments against this, except that they want to be free. In colleges . . . Prabhupāda: But they are not free. That means they are fools. They are not free, still they are thinking "free." That is foolishness. If you are actually free, that is another thing, (laughs) but you are not free. You are responsible for even a minute work or misdeed, you are responsible. Where is your freedom? That freedom means ahaṅkāra vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). The rascal, foolish, bewildered, he's thinking that he's free. Where is your freedom? Nature is working. If you are free, then why you are dying? If you are free, then do not die. Nobody wants to die. What is the answer? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will give some nonsense answer. Prabhupāda: What is that nonsense? In nonsense there must be some sense also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they would like both. Like the Christians, they would like to enjoy sinful life and at the same time live forever. Prabhupāda: No, we don't talk of any sect; we are talking of the general principles. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Their tendency is . . . Prabhupāda: Now the people's tendency, general tendency is, unless he's a madman, nobody is prepared to die. But he has to die. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "But I accept death as part of life." Prabhupāda: Part of life? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Yes, it's natural. So I don't . . . I'm not afraid." Prabhupāda: Then when there is some sign of death, why do you go away? Sit down and die. (laughter) You don't accept that. You are talking foolishly. You don't want to die. That is a fact. You are talking foolishly, that "I accept it," but you don't accept it. That is the fact. But because you have no other way, then you say, "I accept it." The real fact is this, that you do not wish to die, but you find that there is no other alternative, "Then I accept it. All right." So you can talk like that, foolishly, but intelligent man, you do not want to die. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One time, one boy said that. So as soon as he said it, I picked up a stick and went like that: "Oh!" and said "See, you are afraid." And he said, "No, I'm not afraid." So I went—and he was showing fear. Prabhupāda: Even dog is afraid, what to speak of man. The animals, when they are taken to be slaughtered, they cry. So animal is afraid of death, why not man? Everyone is afraid. Kulādri: Prabhupāda? They say, "Why you worry so much about death? We are living. We are enjoying life. Why do you worry about death?" Prabhupāda: Because we are intelligent. I love you. Therefore you'll die and you'll become a dog, so I am taking sympathy on you, that "Don't become a dog." Every human being is anxious. The example is given just like a child flying kite and is going this way, this way, on the roof. Now on the edge of the roof, so one gentleman standing, "Hey, you'll fall down." That is his duty. He says, "Why you are checking me?" (laughter) "Why you are checking me?" "Because I am human being. You are foolish boy. Therefore I am checking you." That is natural. Even a child is . . . or the boy is not his son, but because he is a gentleman, he wants to give him some protection. It is the duty of gentleman. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to the Indians that "You become perfect and go and give this knowledge to the rest of the world. They are all rascals." *It is para*-upakāra, humanitarian. You may say, "Why do you bother?" But as a human being, I bother. Every human being will do that. Kṛṣṇa comes, bothering Himself. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). "When these have become rascals, fools, I come, again advise them." So those who are servants of God, they are also doing the same thing, on behalf of God. Their position is therefore exalted. They should be worshiped as God because they are doing the work of God. They are not cheating public. (pause) Prabhupāda: So improve this farming very nicely. So the cows, they should be given as much as possible pasturing. If you simply drink little milk, and little vegetables, that will supply all vitamins. You do not require to take vitamin pills. No, there is no need. It has got all the vitamins. That is admitted. Vitamin A, D, in milk, they say so. And fruits, vitamin C. In this way, in fruits, vegetables, grains, milk, all vitamins are there. Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if you take milk in other forms, like if you eat cheese, if you take curd or cheese, is it the same as drinking milk or . . . ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Any milk preparation. And if you have got enough milk, then keep it as ghee and open restaurant in the city. Give them nice samosā, kachorī. So in exchange you get money. You require little money, so that money will help you. Actually, in India before these British, the poorer class of men, they were simply keeping say a dozen of cows, and that was their means of livelihood, that's all. From the milk they'll eat the, that, little milk, then yogurt, then . . . what is called? It is another milk? Devotees: Casein? Curd? Cheese? Viśākhā: Buttermilk. Prabhupāda: Buttermilk, yes. And in this way, after drinking and eating so many things, whatever balance is there, churn it and they get ghee, and that ghee is kept in stock. On the market day, they go to the city and sell it. You'll find in Vṛndāvana, so many cultivators, they have brought ghee. So the inhabitants of the city, town, they require ghee, they purchase, and with that money they get some necessities, just like some oil or some spices, salt, like this, which is not available. In this way . . . Hari-śauri: How is it they are so keen on buffalo milk in India? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: The Indians, they seem to prefer buffalo milk to cow milk. Prabhupāda: No, cow milk is not available, therefore buffalo milk contains more fat. But milk means cow's milk. What is the daily milk? Kīrtanānanda: About a thousand pounds. *Prabhupāda: Those who are meat*-eaters, why don't you inform them, when a cow dies, that "You can take it." Kīrtanānanda: That would be illegal. Prabhupāda: Why? Legal, illegal, that is their whims. Devotee: Hmm. That's a fact. Kīrtanānanda: But that will get us in trouble. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is, they can give us. They are in power, they can do that. But legally . . . Kīrtanānanda: Yes, you are right. If they want to eat, let them take the dead cow. Prabhupāda: They take it. Free, they get without any price. They get the skin, they get flesh. Let them eat. We are not going to charge for the . . . You take it. Why maintain slaughterhouse? Take this. Kīrtanānanda: They even object if you let the animals, wild animals, eat the dead cow. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: They even object if you let the wild animals eat. They want it buried. Prabhupāda: Oh, jackals or fox, if they come, they don't like it. Kīrtanānanda: The jackals like it. Prabhupāda: No, jackals like it, (laughter) but government . . . Kīrtanānanda: Government doesn't like it. *Prabhupāda: Government will like when the jackal takes your animal. They will eat it, they will not attack somebody else, because if they are not hungry they don't attack. Even tiger or any ferocious animal, if they are satisfied in hunger, no hunger, they don't attack. In the jungle, tiger and other animals, they live together. When they are hungry, they attack. So at least you can advertise that here is a cow, available free. Take it, those who are meat*-eaters. Take free without any price. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most meat*-eaters would consider it disgusting. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most meat*-eaters would consider it disgusting to have to cut cow open. Prabhupāda: Disgusting? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. If they had to do it themselves they would consider it abominable. Prabhupāda: No, some of them can do it, make business. As there are butchers, as they are selling meat, they can take it, they'll make more profit. From slaughterhouse, if they purchase, they have to pay, but here they get free. The hotel man, they can get free. The tannery expert, he'll get this skin free. (break) I have seen they are eating the lobster, it is so decomposed it has become exactly like pus and they are eating. That argument is not valid. Kīrtanānanda: They cannot even eat the animal when it is fresh. They never eat beef fresh. It must age for at least three weeks, otherwise it is not tasty. (laughter) *Hari-śauri: I remember once there was one man, he was advertising himself . . . he was touring from one country to another, and he was advertising himself as being an expert meat*-eater. And he said . . . one of his statements was you couldn't eat a beefsteak until it had little white spots all over it; then it was ready to eat. Prabhupāda: White spot means decomposed. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Bacteria. Prabhupāda: Fungus. Nānā yoni brāhmaṇa kare kadārya bhakṣaṇa kari' tāra janma adho pate yāya. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can point out all the defects in their system, but then they say, "But there is no proof that such a perfect society has ever existed as you speak of. We have no evidence that such a perfect society exists." Prabhupāda: You can see, come and see with us. Kīrtanānanda: Show them our movie. Prabhupāda: Live in our New Vrindavan, you'll see. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Then they say, "Well, that is all right for you, but that is not practical for everyone." Kīrtanānanda: Why not? We are human beings, you are human being. Prabhupāda: So what is not practical for you, our system, your system is also not practical for us. We cannot live in this way. Anyway, if you can maintain a perfect community of plain living, high thinking, that is sufficient. We do not canvass, but naturally they will see that this is convenient. After all, they are human beings. They are learning. So that is part of our business to preach, but to practice personally, that is our main business. To practice personally, that is our main business. Not that everyone will be preacher, but at least his own life be perfect. (looking at Brijbasi Spirit magazine?)What is this kijariya? Kulaśekhara: I don't know if it's spelled right, Prabhupāda. Hari-śauri: Kī jaya. Kulaśekhara: Kī jaya Prabhupāda: Kī jaya. Oh. Kulaśekhara: It is misspelled? I'm no Sanskrit scholar, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Guruban dhāma kī, that kī should be different. *Kulaśekhara: K*-i? Prabhupāda: No, not kijaya. Kī one word, jaya one word. Just like Guruban one word, dhāma one word. Similarly kī one word, and jaya one. Kulaśekhara: The spelling is correct though? *Prabhupāda: Spelling? Yes, but generally k*-i. Kulaśekhara: I couldn't find it. I looked in many books, but I couldn't find kī jaya. Prabhupāda: Jaya is all right. Devotee: What does kī mean? Prabhupāda: Kī means possessive, "of." Kulaśekhara: Have you been receiving the past copies of the magazine, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kulaśekhara: Have you been receiving the past issues? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda read the last issue in Hawaii. I remember you read through the last issue with a brown cover, in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: So how you make this double color? Twice printed? Kulaśekhara: Three times. Red, black and yellow. *Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana*-candra? No. *Kīrtanānanda: Vṛndāvana*-natha. Prabhupāda: Where? Kīrtanānanda: He is at the original farm where you stayed. This is the pūjārī. Very, very nice boy. He also makes that nice sandeśa. Rādhānatha. Prabhupāda: And who makes the siṅgāra? Kīrtanānanda: Kuladri. Hari-śauri: Kuladri makes those. He's doing some special thing to them. Prabhupāda: They are not giving me. (laughter) Hari-śauri: He's doing it tonight. Kīrtanānanda: He's doing it right now. You'll have it tonight. Hari-śauri: He's doing it now. Prabhupāda: Not night. Kīrtanānanda: They said you want it at night. When would you like it? Noon? Prabhupāda: Morning. Kīrtanānanda: Breakfast. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very nice. You decorate Kṛṣṇa very nicely, then you'll forget the business of decorating your person. This is the effect. Because people are busy how to decorate himself. They are spending so much money. Huh? But if you decorate Kṛṣṇa nicely, you'll forget this propensity. This is the process. Kulaśekhara: You also said if you decorate Kṛṣṇa, make Kṛṣṇa beautiful, your heart will become beautiful. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not fashion; it is for our benefit. By seeing Kṛṣṇa beautifully decorated, he'll be satisfied. He'll have no more propensity, "Let me go to the market and find out some nice . . . (indistinct) . . . and decorate myself." Finished. So hundreds and thousands of people in the temple, by seeing Kṛṣṇa nicely decorated, he's satisfied. Everyone is satisfied. *Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra are more beautiful than the Deities in London. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (laughter) London differently. *Kulaśekhara: They are very beautiful, but Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra . . . *Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana*-candra is village beauty, and He is London beauty. He's town beauty. *Kulaśekhara: I have not seen more beautiful anywhere than Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra. The jewelry . . . Prabhupāda: No. Every one is beautiful, but everyone praise our London Deity. *Kīrtanānanda: They have not seen Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra yet. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Kīrtanānanda: They have not seen yet Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra. Prabhupāda: No, they have seen the picture. (pause) Prabhupāda: So how we can go there? Kīrtanānanda: I can take you. Prabhupāda: By car? Kīrtanānanda: By truck. Prabhupāda: By truck? (laughter) Cannot go by car? Difficult. Kīrtanānanda: I wouldn't want to try it in a car. Might get . . . the road is not bad, but it is not quite good enough for a car. Prabhupāda: The same way we have to go? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, but the road has been improved. Prabhupāda: So one day we can go. Kīrtanānanda: When it dries up. (pause) Prabhupāda: Your father is an architect, I see. Kulaśekhara: No, he's working in the docks. Prabhupāda: Oh. His father came to see me in London. Kulaśekhara: He used to chauffeur you in his car. He would drive you in his car from the airport. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kulaśekhara: He is a good man, but he's not intelligent. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, he'll profit by your activities. Kṛṣṇa will give concession to your family. Because you are Vaiṣṇava, everyone will get the profit. Kulaśekhara: In London you said thirteen generations. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is special concession. Hiraṇyakaśipu was given, such a demon. But your father is not a demon. He may be less intelligent, that is another thing. So Kṛṣṇa is prepared to give facility to a demon father of a devotee. Kulaśekhara: Anyone who gets to render you personal service, Prabhupāda, they are most blessed, they are most fortunate. Prabhupāda: Anyway, you have got this jewel. Utilize it properly, make your life perfect. But we don't say that you starve, you unnecessarily give trouble to your body. No. Eat nicely but simply, and save time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our program. Nanda Mahārāja was a village man. Kṛṣṇa was a village boy. Kṛṣṇa could live in New Delhi, but He did not like that. He lived in Vṛndāvana, a village. But one difficulty is that it is not plain land. Little troublesome, but not very much troublesome. So is there any difficulty of not being a plain land? Kīrtanānanda: It makes farming more difficult on the hill. It takes more time, more work. Prabhupāda: Hard work. Kīrtanānanda: That is good. Prabhupāda: For cows there is no difficulty. Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: In India, they call pahārhī when they are accustomed to hard work. Those who live on the Himalayan side, they have to work little hard, therefore they are pahārhī. You have accepted others' children also? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Well, especially girls who have no husbands. There are quite a few here. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, you are so kind you don't refuse anybody. That is . . . who is so kind unless one is a Vaiṣṇava? Nobody is kind. Kṛpā*-sindhubhya eva ca (Śrī Vaiṣṇava Praṇāma). Kṛpā-sindhu, ocean of mercy, that is Vaiṣṇava. Never mind what you are; come here, stay, drink milk, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: The children are doing very nicely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: And they will be our future community. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kīrtanānanda: Practically it is impossible to teach these older boys how to use bulls and how to . . . it is very difficult. They cannot do it. But I think if we train the children. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa Himself did it. He was king's son, Nanda Mahārāja. In the childhood, He was taking care of the calves, and when He was grown up, little, He was taking care of the cows. Kṛṣṇa personally showed it. His father could have avoided, "No, no, You don't go. The servants will go." No. "You also go." Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma, both. Balarāma has got the plow, tilling ground, and Kṛṣṇa has got the flute to enchant the cows, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. They were not sitting idly, although Nanda Mahārāja could keep Them without any work. No. They worked, from the beginning of childhood. They would come in the evening and mother would take care of bathing Them, changing dress, and then give nice food, and after taking food They would go to rest. Whole day They worked. Kṛṣṇa never taught that you sit idly. No. Personally He did not do so, neither He taught anyone. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find, Find out this. Hari-śauri: What was that again, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Niyataḥ. You should read Bhagavad*-gītā so thoroughly for everything. That is good lawyer. Good lawyer means in the court, immediately give reference to the judge, "My Lordship, such and such law, under section . . . this is there." He's a good lawyer. Good lawyer means he immediately gives reference to the section on which he's talking. Immediately judgment is there. If there is previous authority and it is recorded in the lawbook, then he doesn't require to argue anymore; the evidence is there. Even in other court, if some judgment is there, they'll be accepted. This is the law. So a good lawyer means he gives references from different courts, the judgment makes easier. Instead of proceeding for a long time, he gives reference—"Here is the judgment, you see," and immediately . . . Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean to keep a set of men lazy, who cannot work. That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone must work to his capacity, prescribed duties. They accuse us that we are escaping. Huh? What is that? We do not escape. We are always busy. Devotee: Recently I had an opportunity to see a . . . (indistinct) . . . farm commune, and I was talking to one of the boys there about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they said, "You are under Swami Prabhupāda?" They said, "We have never seen Prabhupāda smile." I told them that "Yes, birth, death, disease and old age are nothing to smile about." Prabhupāda: There are so many pictures, smiling. (laughter) Devotee: Actually, when you smile it's always beautiful. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have not read your Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are smiling here. Prabhupāda: No. There are so many. Hmm. What is that? *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Purport? "There are many pseudo meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set forth for kṣatriyas. Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart of a mundane man and free him from material contamination. So*-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others." *Prabhupāda: That is not the right way. Kṛṣṇa never said to Arjuna that "You haven't got to fight. You sit down, I shall do everything." He never said that. "You have to fight." Nimitta*-mātraṁ bhava savyaśacin (BG 11.33). "And the result is already created by Me, but you have to make a manifestation of fighting." Just like our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Within eight or ten years we have developed so much. Is it humanly possible? It is Kṛṣṇa's plan. But Kṛṣṇa says that "You go and preach. Take the credit." Yes. It is His plan. Actually everything is done by Kṛṣṇa. He gives the credit to His devotee, that's all. You know the history of the Detroit temple? (laughs) Kīrtanānanda: A little bit. Not too much. Prabhupāda: Detroit temple, it was, that building was constructed at a cost of two million dollars, say some fifty years, sixty years ago. And we purchased it at three hundred thousand dollars. So when they said that there is a nice house, so I told, "Let me go immediately." So I went there and talked with the proprietor. So I liked it very much; it is a wonderful palace. So he asked $350,000. So I talked with him and asked some concession. Then I last bid again, "I'll give you cash, three hundred thousand." So he said, "Yes, I accept." (chuckling) There was no money. (laughter) So the Bombay purchase, you know, it was simply speculation. So Kṛṣṇa is giving us. For a karmī, it is not possible, but Kṛṣṇa gives us all facilities. You have been in that palace, Detroit? Very, very nice. Perhaps the best in our Society, huh? Hari-śauri: Without a doubt. Prabhupāda: London, that is also nice, but not as nice. The building is so strong, and the rooms are so palatial, big, big rooms. One room of this size of the whole . . . Kīrtanānanda: How big is the temple room? Hari-śauri: The temple room is not so big—fifty feet long and about thirty feet wide. Prabhupāda: Bigger than here, double. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Very nice garden. Prabhupāda: Very nice garden, and on the riverside. Kīrtanānanda: Can you bathe in the river? Hari-śauri: Sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes, if you like, you can bathe. Hari-śauri: You can drive a boat in it underneath the house. There's a dock. It's like a garage. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: All the rich people come by in their yachts all day long and wave, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Śrīla Prabhupāda said we should put a sign up on the boat, that they can drive their boat in and take prasādam and read the books. Prabhupāda: Yes. And invite them, give that signboard: "Please come, read our books and take prasādam." Gradually, they will come. Very big garden. Hari-śauri: Seven peacocks. Kīrtanānanda: Is it stone? Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: What is it, the building is stone or . . .? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Stone, marble. With golden work. Hari-śauri: The bathrooms, even the soap dishes are gold. The soap dishes, the toilet roll holder, everything is gold. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Gold wallpaper. Prabhupāda: One floor is like this. Very costly house. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They told me that the prasādam room floor alone, three hundred thousand dollars to build. And you have gotten the whole thing. Prabhupāda: Everywhere it is so beautiful, nice, strong, and quite suitable for our purpose. Everyone is living. Still, big, big three, four rooms, not yet utilized. And climate also is nice, at the present moment, huh? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: I think the same climate here. Hari-śauri: Yes, same as here. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: There was a large swimming pool. Every afternoon all the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, besides that, there is a swimming pool. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We would go out and have water fights. Prabhupāda: And they have kept five peacocks. Hari-śauri: Seven. Prabhupāda: Seven. They are very free moving, here and there, and chanting. Kīrtanānanda: They stay in the grounds? Hari-śauri: They never leave the grounds. They sleep up in one tree. Prabhupāda: They are free to move from one tree to another, but they don't go outside. Only complaint, they are eating flowers. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, they eat all the flowers. Prabhupāda: They are also trained; they are not afraid. They are sitting, you go, they are not afraid. They have been trained up that "We are at home." That animals and any birds can be trained. Just like these cows, they know that all of you are friends. Animals can understand. Even if you can make friends with the tigers and lions. Yes. I have seen it. In that New York exhibition, one man was showing me. He was embracing the lion and playing like dog. I've seen it. Hari-śauri: That used to be a circus trick as well. They used to put their heads in the lion's mouth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They keep them well fed. As long as the lion is well fed, you can put your head in his mouth, but if you don't feed him, then it is dangerous. Prabhupāda: Yes, that comes, if he's animal. (laughter) They can understand that he's giving you food, he's my friend. The love, friendship, everything is there, even in the animals. Devotee: Except God consciousness. Prabhupāda: That is possible in human life. But animal also can become God conscious by association. Kīrtanānanda: Sometimes I've heard you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that love only exists between similar categories. Prabhupāda: Similar categories, the love is very conducive. Otherwise, love is possible with any living entity. The central object of love is Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. The animals love Kṛṣṇa, the human being love Kṛṣṇa, the trees love Kṛṣṇa, the water love Kṛṣṇa—everyone love Kṛṣṇa: central point. That is the perfection of love. The Deity is kept in the same house? Original, that . . . Kīrtanānanda: But it is changed. The house is changed since you were there. Prabhupāda: Oh. "Changed" means? Kīrtanānanda: The whole downstairs has been made into a big area. Prabhupāda: But I see the marble pillar? Kīrtanānanda: Yeah, it has a marble altar. Prabhupāda: Oh. The same altar? Kīrtanānanda: No, no. Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of New Vrindavan. Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: Hmm. All right. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end) Prabhupāda: So, what news? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we've distributed about 70,000 magazines so far this month. So I think we'll reach 100,000 in this month. Even though we are getting much harassment from the police, still we are going on. Prabhupāda: Why harassment? What is the fault? (break) Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They are mostly godless, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They see us as a nuisance to the public. We are threatening their sense gratification. Kīrtanānanda: What fault did Prahlāda have? Prabhupāda: Sense gratification, we are refusing them? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We are threatening their sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So it is bad? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: It is bad for their way of life. Just like Prahlāda was preaching to his school friends. And I think almost 20,000 big books so far. Prabhupāda: "So far" means? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Up to this month, for the first three weeks. Hari-śauri: Means there's one more, one more week. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Nine days left. Prabhupāda: What is your party doing? Kīrtanānanda: What is what? Prabhupāda: Your party, selling books? Kīrtanānanda: I don't know what the figures are. Prabhupāda: No, your line is this farming. Kīrtanānanda: Per capita, we distribute more books. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: Per man, we distribute more books than they do. I think per man we distribute more than anybody in ISKCON. Prabhupāda: And still they are maintaining this farm. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And building very nice buildings. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Very nice projects they are building. Prabhupāda: This project should be advanced—plain living, high thinking. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I think we'll take around that film of New Vrindavan to all the colleges this year when we are preaching, and show it to the students as our practical example. Prabhupāda: This is nasty civilization, unnecessarily increasing necessities of life. Anartha. Kīrtanānanda: We would not have understood you if you had said that eight, ten years ago. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: Ten years ago I know I could not have understood you if you had said that. Now I understand a little bit. *Prabhupāda: Now suppose these electric light. So, crude form of light, we grow some castor seed, everything from the earth. This also you are getting from earth, petroleum, and running on machine, and electricity is generated. But really you are getting the impetus from the earth. As soon as the petroleum supply is stopped, everything stopped. But for this purpose you have to search out petroleum from the middle of ocean, boring. Therefore it is ugra*-karma. The purpose is that you grow some castor seed, press it, get oil, put in any pot, and one wick, the light is there. Light is there. So even understanding that you have improved the lighting system, but that is not the only necessity of my life. But to improve from the castor seed lamp, castor oil lamp, to this electricity, you have to work so hard. You have to go to the middle of ocean and drill it and get out petroleum and . . . in this way your real business of life is finished. The energy and the intelligence you got for your self-realization or your, this precarious position, constantly dying and taking birth in various species of life, this is your problem, and this was to be solved in human life, you have got advanced intelligence. But that intelligence is utilized from castor seed lamp to the electric lamp. That's all. Just try to understand. What is that improvement? And for this improving from castor seed oil lamp to electricity lamp, you forget your real business. You lost yourself. This civilization is going on. This is called māyā. For some fictitious happiness you lose your whole purpose of life. It is difficult to understand, but the fact is there. But you are under the control of nature; you have to give up this body. All right, you make very nice arrangement to live here, nature will not allow you to live. You must die. And after death you are going to get another body. So in this body, working for high grade electricity lamp, you work so hard, have got your own business, and next life, by the laws of nature if you get the body of a dog, then what is the benefit? That you cannot check. What is the answer? Hmm? Kulādri: Simple living, high thinking. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kulādri: Simple living. Prabhupāda: No, here is the charge. Now what is your answer? In this life you are living very comfortably, next life if I'm going to be a dog, then this is the charge. Now how this class of men will answer it? Can he deny that he's not going to be a dog? Kīrtanānanda: He says he doesn't believe it. *Prabhupāda: You believe or not believe. Just like this child, it is boy, he does not know anything. But I know, his mother knows, his father knows that he's going to be young man. If he says, "No, I am not going to be young man," that is childish. That is childish. But the father, mother, friends know that the boy is going to grow a young man, so he should be educated and he should be properly situated. That is the guardian's business. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. So that he doesn't know, that does not mean it is not fact. So similarly, if rascals say, "I don't believe it," that's not a fact. He is a rascal, mad, he may say so, but that is not the fact. Karaṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgasya ( BG 13.22). Real fact is that he'll have to accept a body according to the quality of development. Kīrtanānanda: But what if they say that "Actually, this life of growing the castor seed is very difficult, farming is very difficult. It is easier to go to the factory for eight hours, and then I come home with my money and I enjoy." Prabhupāda: No, you enjoy, but by enjoying, if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Your real business is that you have got this human form of body to improve your next life. You are going to have a next life. Suppose you are going to be a dog. Is that success? So you must know the science that instead of becoming dog, how shall you become God. That is intelligence. Kīrtanānanda: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to dig a well? Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to . . . *Prabhupāda: No, you require lamp. So you finish that lamping business as simply as possible. In the balance time you save, you improve your self*-realization. That is the life. Just like this child, he wants to play. He does not go to school, does not take an education, and he improves type of toils, toys, he's engaged in improved type of football playing, and . . . then is that very good intelligence? Kīrtanānanda: But nobody works longer hours than the farmer. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: No one works harder than the farmer. The farmer has to work very hard. Prabhupāda: No, our point is that if you think that electricity improvement is better than farming, we have no objection. But if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Kīrtanānanda: No, of course not. *Prabhupāda: That is our point. Our real business is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So simply for improving the condition of life, the necessities of life, if I forget my real business, is that intelligent? Therefore it is said duṣkṛtinaḥ. Kṛti means merit. But merit is being utilized for sinful activities. Take for example the meat*-eaters. When man was . . . the uncivilized man is still there. In the uncivilized way they are living in the jungle. They require to eat something. So they stone over an animal going, and the animal dies, and then they eat. Now instead of killing the animal by stoning, if you have discovered scientific machine in the slaughterhouse to kill the animal, is that improvement? If you think this is advancement, "Now we have discovered very technical machine. Instead of stoning one animal, killing, it takes so much time, hundreds and thousands of animals you can kill in one hour," do you think that is improvement? That is going on. They think this is improvement. When we were uncivilized, we were stoning some animal and killing and eating, now we are . . . business is the same—animal killing and eating—but we have improved the machine how to kill. This is going on. This is going on as advancement of civilization. Hmm? What is your answer? Is that advancement of civilization? Now you are civilized, instead of killing the animal, you just take milk from it without killing and make so many nice preparations, and that is civilization. But killing is sinful. You have no right to kill any animal, even an ant, because you cannot give life to anyone. It is nature's law, God's law. So infringement on the laws of nature or God, it is sinful activities. So you are utilizing your merit for this sinful activity. Therefore it is called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Merit is there, but it is utilized for sinful activities. That is defect of the modern civilization. Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember once you said . . . Prabhupāda: These questions that "I believe," "I don't believe," you are rascal; *what is the meaning of your believe or not believing? You are, after all, a rascal. Just like a child will say something, "I don't believe." The mother will say, "You are rascal. You must go to school." So rascals believe or not believe, what is the meaning? Mūḍha. It is the law of nature. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). The example is given that this boy will change his body, dehāntara-prāptir. He'll become a young boy, young man. This body will not remain. What is the difficulty to understand, "Yes, this body will not remain"? While he came out of the womb of the mother, that was another body. But these rascals, they do not understand it. It is very difficult to deal with the rascals, that's a fact, but . . . whatever they are doing is all rascaldom, that's all. And forgetting their real business. So your son, does he believe that he's going to be a young man? (asks child) You believe? (laughs) Huh? What is your . . . Kulaśekhara: I remember once when we were staying at John Lennon's estate, you said to me . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Kulaśekhara: At John Lennon's estate, remember? In London. You said to me, the tractor, you said, this is the cause of all the trouble. That it took all the work from the young men, and they went to the city and became entangled in the sense gratification in the cities. So I've noticed in the city there's much more passion, but living in the country is simpler. Prabhupāda: Yes. Passion there must be. When you have got the facility, naturally we are lusty, and we have got the facility, then we take to it. Kulaśekhara: The country is more peaceful. It's easier to think of spiritual life. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Less disease. Less brain*-taxing. Everything is less. So balance time, utilize for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if you have got temple, it is very happy life. Just for your food work little, and balance time engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is ideal life. (pause) Prabhupāda: Just see minute fibers on the flower. Can anyone manufacture this? So small fibers. And how brilliant it is. If you study only one flower, you become God conscious. There is a machine which we call nature. From that machine, everything is coming. But how machine is perfect? And who has discovered this machine? Kulaśekhara: In London you said they do not know that the butterflies and flowers are painted, but Kṛṣṇa paints them with thought. *Prabhupāda: Yes. How you can expect without painting it has come so beautiful? This is foolishness, "nature." What is this nature? Everything is being done by the machine of Kṛṣṇa. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (CC Madhya 13.65, purport). Anyway, improve this mode of life. Live in open place, produce your food grain, produce your milk, save time, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Plain living, high thinking—ideal life. Artificial necessities of life do increase your so*-called comfort, but if you forget your real business, that is suicidal. We want to stop this suicidal policy. We don't want to stop the modern advancement of technology, although the so-called advancement technology is suicidal. But we don't talk of this. (laughter) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore given a simple formula—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even in your technological factories, you can chant. What is the wrong there? You go on pulling on with your machine and chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: They know that if people take up the chanting, gradually they will give up this technology. Prabhupāda: That is, of course. Kīrtanānanda: You are actually putting the seeds of their destruction. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, what is destruction? It is, rather, construction. (laughter) He'll live. He'll live forever. This is destruction. You have to change body. But our method, this tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9): you don't get anymore material body. So that is saving. And without this? Tathā dehāntara*-praptir. Then you have to accept another body. So which is better: to accept another material body or no more accepting material body? Which is better? But as soon as you accept material body, you have to suffer. Material body means suffering. So that requires knowledge. If we finish our suffering up to this body, that is intelligent. And if we create another body for suffering, is that intelligent? That you have to . . . unless you understand Kṛṣṇa, you have to accept. There is no alternative. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They are so dull they cannot understand this simple truth, that as the child, boy, is accepting another body, we have to accept another body. They cannot understand. So dull brain. It will take five hundred years to teach them this very simple fact. Huh? Their education is so advanced. (laughter) Therefore mūḍha, the word is used. So-called education keeps them as an ass. Cannot understand the simple truth. (pause) Prabhupāda: So everyone is getting milk? How much? Kīrtanānanda: As much as they want. Prabhupāda: As much as they want, then jaundice. (laughter) Too much is not good. They may take minimum half pound per head. Kīrtanānanda: Minimum. Prabhupāda: Minimum. And maximum one pound. Not more than that. But "Because there is enough, let us eat," no. That is not good. But children must get at least one pound milk. If they drink more milk they become stout and strong. Kīrtanānanda: They get more than one pound. They get at least two pounds. Prabhupāda: Then their life is built up strong, and nice brain to understand. Do they not see the benefit of the society, that we are not killing children, we are maintaining them with sufficient milk? Is it not better civilization? And they are, for fear of overpopulation, they are killing. The mother is killing the child. Is that civilization? *Kīrtanānanda: But in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that those in the mode of ignorance, they take irreligion to be religion and religion to be irreligion. *Prabhupāda: No, religion . . . there is no religion for them, but there is no morality even. Here we are having so many children. We don't brag that "We cannot maintain these children. Kill them." We never say that. Never mind. Let them be trained up as Kṛṣṇa conscious, live comfortably, take milk. So which is better civilization? Running with motorcar, put*-put-put-put-put-put-put-put and killing child? Is that civilization? Kīrtanānanda: Most of these children are not even our own. They have been taken in from . . . Prabhupāda: Just see, that means we welcome. Kīrtanānanda: . . . mothers without fathers, and . . . Prabhupāda: That means we welcome and they kill. So why do they not find the distinction between this civilization, that civilization? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have no arguments against this, except that they want to be free. In colleges . . . Prabhupāda: But they are not free. That means they are fools. They are not free, still they are thinking "free." That is foolishness. If you are actually free, that is another thing, (laughs) but you are not free. You are responsible for even a minute work or misdeed, you are responsible. Where is your freedom? That freedom means ahaṅkāra vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). The rascal, foolish, bewildered, he's thinking that he's free. Where is your freedom? Nature is working. If you are free, then why you are dying? If you are free, then do not die. Nobody wants to die. What is the answer? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will give some nonsense answer. Prabhupāda: What is that nonsense? In nonsense there must be some sense also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they would like both. Like the Christians, they would like to enjoy sinful life and at the same time live forever. Prabhupāda: No, we don't talk of any sect; we are talking of the general principles. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Their tendency is . . . Prabhupāda: Now the people's tendency, general tendency is, unless he's a madman, nobody is prepared to die. But he has to die. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "But I accept death as part of life." Prabhupāda: Part of life? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Yes, it's natural. So I don't . . . I'm not afraid." Prabhupāda: Then when there is some sign of death, why do you go away? Sit down and die. (laughter) You don't accept that. You are talking foolishly. You don't want to die. That is a fact. You are talking foolishly, that "I accept it," but you don't accept it. That is the fact. But because you have no other way, then you say, "I accept it." The real fact is this, that you do not wish to die, but you find that there is no other alternative, "Then I accept it. All right." So you can talk like that, foolishly, but intelligent man, you do not want to die. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One time, one boy said that. So as soon as he said it, I picked up a stick and went like that: "Oh!" and said "See, you are afraid." And he said, "No, I'm not afraid." So I went—and he was showing fear. Prabhupāda: Even dog is afraid, what to speak of man. The animals, when they are taken to be slaughtered, they cry. So animal is afraid of death, why not man? Everyone is afraid. Kulādri: Prabhupāda? They say, "Why you worry so much about death? We are living. We are enjoying life. Why do you worry about death?" Prabhupāda: Because we are intelligent. I love you. Therefore you'll die and you'll become a dog, so I am taking sympathy on you, that "Don't become a dog." Every human being is anxious. The example is given just like a child flying kite and is going this way, this way, on the roof. Now on the edge of the roof, so one gentleman standing, "Hey, you'll fall down." That is his duty. He says, "Why you are checking me?" (laughter) "Why you are checking me?" "Because I am human being. You are foolish boy. Therefore I am checking you." That is natural. Even a child is . . . or the boy is not his son, but because he is a gentleman, he wants to give him some protection. It is the duty of gentleman. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to the Indians that "You become perfect and go and give this knowledge to the rest of the world. They are all rascals." *It is para*-upakāra, humanitarian. You may say, "Why do you bother?" But as a human being, I bother. Every human being will do that. Kṛṣṇa comes, bothering Himself. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). "When these have become rascals, fools, I come, again advise them." So those who are servants of God, they are also doing the same thing, on behalf of God. Their position is therefore exalted. They should be worshiped as God because they are doing the work of God. They are not cheating public. (pause) Prabhupāda: So improve this farming very nicely. So the cows, they should be given as much as possible pasturing. If you simply drink little milk, and little vegetables, that will supply all vitamins. You do not require to take vitamin pills. No, there is no need. It has got all the vitamins. That is admitted. Vitamin A, D, in milk, they say so. And fruits, vitamin C. In this way, in fruits, vegetables, grains, milk, all vitamins are there. Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if you take milk in other forms, like if you eat cheese, if you take curd or cheese, is it the same as drinking milk or . . . ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Any milk preparation. And if you have got enough milk, then keep it as ghee and open restaurant in the city. Give them nice samosā, kachorī. So in exchange you get money. You require little money, so that money will help you. Actually, in India before these British, the poorer class of men, they were simply keeping say a dozen of cows, and that was their means of livelihood, that's all. From the milk they'll eat the, that, little milk, then yogurt, then . . . what is called? It is another milk? Devotees: Casein? Curd? Cheese? Viśākhā: Buttermilk. Prabhupāda: Buttermilk, yes. And in this way, after drinking and eating so many things, whatever balance is there, churn it and they get ghee, and that ghee is kept in stock. On the market day, they go to the city and sell it. You'll find in Vṛndāvana, so many cultivators, they have brought ghee. So the inhabitants of the city, town, they require ghee, they purchase, and with that money they get some necessities, just like some oil or some spices, salt, like this, which is not available. In this way . . . Hari-śauri: How is it they are so keen on buffalo milk in India? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: The Indians, they seem to prefer buffalo milk to cow milk. Prabhupāda: No, cow milk is not available, therefore buffalo milk contains more fat. But milk means cow's milk. What is the daily milk? Kīrtanānanda: About a thousand pounds. *Prabhupāda: Those who are meat*-eaters, why don't you inform them, when a cow dies, that "You can take it." Kīrtanānanda: That would be illegal. Prabhupāda: Why? Legal, illegal, that is their whims. Devotee: Hmm. That's a fact. Kīrtanānanda: But that will get us in trouble. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is, they can give us. They are in power, they can do that. But legally . . . Kīrtanānanda: Yes, you are right. If they want to eat, let them take the dead cow. Prabhupāda: They take it. Free, they get without any price. They get the skin, they get flesh. Let them eat. We are not going to charge for the . . . You take it. Why maintain slaughterhouse? Take this. Kīrtanānanda: They even object if you let the animals, wild animals, eat the dead cow. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: They even object if you let the wild animals eat. They want it buried. Prabhupāda: Oh, jackals or fox, if they come, they don't like it. Kīrtanānanda: The jackals like it. Prabhupāda: No, jackals like it, (laughter) but government . . . Kīrtanānanda: Government doesn't like it. *Prabhupāda: Government will like when the jackal takes your animal. They will eat it, they will not attack somebody else, because if they are not hungry they don't attack. Even tiger or any ferocious animal, if they are satisfied in hunger, no hunger, they don't attack. In the jungle, tiger and other animals, they live together. When they are hungry, they attack. So at least you can advertise that here is a cow, available free. Take it, those who are meat*-eaters. Take free without any price. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most meat*-eaters would consider it disgusting. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most meat*-eaters would consider it disgusting to have to cut cow open. Prabhupāda: Disgusting? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. If they had to do it themselves they would consider it abominable. Prabhupāda: No, some of them can do it, make business. As there are butchers, as they are selling meat, they can take it, they'll make more profit. From slaughterhouse, if they purchase, they have to pay, but here they get free. The hotel man, they can get free. The tannery expert, he'll get this skin free. (break) I have seen they are eating the lobster, it is so decomposed it has become exactly like pus and they are eating. That argument is not valid. Kīrtanānanda: They cannot even eat the animal when it is fresh. They never eat beef fresh. It must age for at least three weeks, otherwise it is not tasty. (laughter) *Hari-śauri: I remember once there was one man, he was advertising himself . . . he was touring from one country to another, and he was advertising himself as being an expert meat*-eater. And he said . . . one of his statements was you couldn't eat a beefsteak until it had little white spots all over it; then it was ready to eat. Prabhupāda: White spot means decomposed. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Bacteria. Prabhupāda: Fungus. Nānā yoni brāhmaṇa kare kadārya bhakṣaṇa kari' tāra janma adho pate yāya. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can point out all the defects in their system, but then they say, "But there is no proof that such a perfect society has ever existed as you speak of. We have no evidence that such a perfect society exists." Prabhupāda: You can see, come and see with us. Kīrtanānanda: Show them our movie. Prabhupāda: Live in our New Vrindavan, you'll see. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Then they say, "Well, that is all right for you, but that is not practical for everyone." Kīrtanānanda: Why not? We are human beings, you are human being. Prabhupāda: So what is not practical for you, our system, your system is also not practical for us. We cannot live in this way. Anyway, if you can maintain a perfect community of plain living, high thinking, that is sufficient. We do not canvass, but naturally they will see that this is convenient. After all, they are human beings. They are learning. So that is part of our business to preach, but to practice personally, that is our main business. To practice personally, that is our main business. Not that everyone will be preacher, but at least his own life be perfect. (looking at Brijbasi Spirit magazine?)What is this kijariya? Kulaśekhara: I don't know if it's spelled right, Prabhupāda. Hari-śauri: Kī jaya. Kulaśekhara: Kī jaya Prabhupāda: Kī jaya. Oh. Kulaśekhara: It is misspelled? I'm no Sanskrit scholar, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Guruban dhāma kī, that kī should be different. *Kulaśekhara: K*-i? Prabhupāda: No, not kijaya. Kī one word, jaya one word. Just like Guruban one word, dhāma one word. Similarly kī one word, and jaya one. Kulaśekhara: The spelling is correct though? *Prabhupāda: Spelling? Yes, but generally k*-i. Kulaśekhara: I couldn't find it. I looked in many books, but I couldn't find kī jaya. Prabhupāda: Jaya is all right. Devotee: What does kī mean? Prabhupāda: Kī means possessive, "of." Kulaśekhara: Have you been receiving the past copies of the magazine, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kulaśekhara: Have you been receiving the past issues? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda read the last issue in Hawaii. I remember you read through the last issue with a brown cover, in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: So how you make this double color? Twice printed? Kulaśekhara: Three times. Red, black and yellow. *Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana*-candra? No. *Kīrtanānanda: Vṛndāvana*-natha. Prabhupāda: Where? Kīrtanānanda: He is at the original farm where you stayed. This is the pūjārī. Very, very nice boy. He also makes that nice sandeśa. Rādhānatha. Prabhupāda: And who makes the siṅgāra? Kīrtanānanda: Kuladri. Hari-śauri: Kuladri makes those. He's doing some special thing to them. Prabhupāda: They are not giving me. (laughter) Hari-śauri: He's doing it tonight. Kīrtanānanda: He's doing it right now. You'll have it tonight. Hari-śauri: He's doing it now. Prabhupāda: Not night. Kīrtanānanda: They said you want it at night. When would you like it? Noon? Prabhupāda: Morning. Kīrtanānanda: Breakfast. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very nice. You decorate Kṛṣṇa very nicely, then you'll forget the business of decorating your person. This is the effect. Because people are busy how to decorate himself. They are spending so much money. Huh? But if you decorate Kṛṣṇa nicely, you'll forget this propensity. This is the process. Kulaśekhara: You also said if you decorate Kṛṣṇa, make Kṛṣṇa beautiful, your heart will become beautiful. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not fashion; it is for our benefit. By seeing Kṛṣṇa beautifully decorated, he'll be satisfied. He'll have no more propensity, "Let me go to the market and find out some nice . . . (indistinct) . . . and decorate myself." Finished. So hundreds and thousands of people in the temple, by seeing Kṛṣṇa nicely decorated, he's satisfied. Everyone is satisfied. *Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra are more beautiful than the Deities in London. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (laughter) London differently. *Kulaśekhara: They are very beautiful, but Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra . . . *Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana*-candra is village beauty, and He is London beauty. He's town beauty. *Kulaśekhara: I have not seen more beautiful anywhere than Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra. The jewelry . . . Prabhupāda: No. Every one is beautiful, but everyone praise our London Deity. *Kīrtanānanda: They have not seen Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra yet. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Kīrtanānanda: They have not seen yet Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra. Prabhupāda: No, they have seen the picture. (pause) Prabhupāda: So how we can go there? Kīrtanānanda: I can take you. Prabhupāda: By car? Kīrtanānanda: By truck. Prabhupāda: By truck? (laughter) Cannot go by car? Difficult. Kīrtanānanda: I wouldn't want to try it in a car. Might get . . . the road is not bad, but it is not quite good enough for a car. Prabhupāda: The same way we have to go? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, but the road has been improved. Prabhupāda: So one day we can go. Kīrtanānanda: When it dries up. (pause) Prabhupāda: Your father is an architect, I see. Kulaśekhara: No, he's working in the docks. Prabhupāda: Oh. His father came to see me in London. Kulaśekhara: He used to chauffeur you in his car. He would drive you in his car from the airport. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kulaśekhara: He is a good man, but he's not intelligent. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, he'll profit by your activities. Kṛṣṇa will give concession to your family. Because you are Vaiṣṇava, everyone will get the profit. Kulaśekhara: In London you said thirteen generations. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is special concession. Hiraṇyakaśipu was given, such a demon. But your father is not a demon. He may be less intelligent, that is another thing. So Kṛṣṇa is prepared to give facility to a demon father of a devotee. Kulaśekhara: Anyone who gets to render you personal service, Prabhupāda, they are most blessed, they are most fortunate. Prabhupāda: Anyway, you have got this jewel. Utilize it properly, make your life perfect. But we don't say that you starve, you unnecessarily give trouble to your body. No. Eat nicely but simply, and save time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our program. Nanda Mahārāja was a village man. Kṛṣṇa was a village boy. Kṛṣṇa could live in New Delhi, but He did not like that. He lived in Vṛndāvana, a village. But one difficulty is that it is not plain land. Little troublesome, but not very much troublesome. So is there any difficulty of not being a plain land? Kīrtanānanda: It makes farming more difficult on the hill. It takes more time, more work. Prabhupāda: Hard work. Kīrtanānanda: That is good. Prabhupāda: For cows there is no difficulty. Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: In India, they call pahārhī when they are accustomed to hard work. Those who live on the Himalayan side, they have to work little hard, therefore they are pahārhī. You have accepted others' children also? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Well, especially girls who have no husbands. There are quite a few here. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, you are so kind you don't refuse anybody. That is . . . who is so kind unless one is a Vaiṣṇava? Nobody is kind. Kṛpā*-sindhubhya eva ca (Śrī Vaiṣṇava Praṇāma). Kṛpā-sindhu, ocean of mercy, that is Vaiṣṇava. Never mind what you are; come here, stay, drink milk, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: The children are doing very nicely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: And they will be our future community. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kīrtanānanda: Practically it is impossible to teach these older boys how to use bulls and how to . . . it is very difficult. They cannot do it. But I think if we train the children. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa Himself did it. He was king's son, Nanda Mahārāja. In the childhood, He was taking care of the calves, and when He was grown up, little, He was taking care of the cows. Kṛṣṇa personally showed it. His father could have avoided, "No, no, You don't go. The servants will go." No. "You also go." Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma, both. Balarāma has got the plow, tilling ground, and Kṛṣṇa has got the flute to enchant the cows, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. They were not sitting idly, although Nanda Mahārāja could keep Them without any work. No. They worked, from the beginning of childhood. They would come in the evening and mother would take care of bathing Them, changing dress, and then give nice food, and after taking food They would go to rest. Whole day They worked. Kṛṣṇa never taught that you sit idly. No. Personally He did not do so, neither He taught anyone. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find, Find out this. Hari-śauri: What was that again, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Niyataḥ. You should read Bhagavad*-gītā so thoroughly for everything. That is good lawyer. Good lawyer means in the court, immediately give reference to the judge, "My Lordship, such and such law, under section . . . this is there." He's a good lawyer. Good lawyer means he immediately gives reference to the section on which he's talking. Immediately judgment is there. If there is previous authority and it is recorded in the lawbook, then he doesn't require to argue anymore; the evidence is there. Even in other court, if some judgment is there, they'll be accepted. This is the law. So a good lawyer means he gives references from different courts, the judgment makes easier. Instead of proceeding for a long time, he gives reference—"Here is the judgment, you see," and immediately . . . Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean to keep a set of men lazy, who cannot work. That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone must work to his capacity, prescribed duties. They accuse us that we are escaping. Huh? What is that? We do not escape. We are always busy. Devotee: Recently I had an opportunity to see a . . . (indistinct) . . . farm commune, and I was talking to one of the boys there about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they said, "You are under Swami Prabhupāda?" They said, "We have never seen Prabhupāda smile." I told them that "Yes, birth, death, disease and old age are nothing to smile about." Prabhupāda: There are so many pictures, smiling. (laughter) Devotee: Actually, when you smile it's always beautiful. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have not read your Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are smiling here. Prabhupāda: No. There are so many. Hmm. What is that? *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Purport? "There are many pseudo meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set forth for kṣatriyas. Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart of a mundane man and free him from material contamination. So*-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others." *Prabhupāda: That is not the right way. Kṛṣṇa never said to Arjuna that "You haven't got to fight. You sit down, I shall do everything." He never said that. "You have to fight." Nimitta*-mātraṁ bhava savyaśacin (BG 11.33). "And the result is already created by Me, but you have to make a manifestation of fighting." Just like our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Within eight or ten years we have developed so much. Is it humanly possible? It is Kṛṣṇa's plan. But Kṛṣṇa says that "You go and preach. Take the credit." Yes. It is His plan. Actually everything is done by Kṛṣṇa. He gives the credit to His devotee, that's all. You know the history of the Detroit temple? (laughs) Kīrtanānanda: A little bit. Not too much. Prabhupāda: Detroit temple, it was, that building was constructed at a cost of two million dollars, say some fifty years, sixty years ago. And we purchased it at three hundred thousand dollars. So when they said that there is a nice house, so I told, "Let me go immediately." So I went there and talked with the proprietor. So I liked it very much; it is a wonderful palace. So he asked $350,000. So I talked with him and asked some concession. Then I last bid again, "I'll give you cash, three hundred thousand." So he said, "Yes, I accept." (chuckling) There was no money. (laughter) So the Bombay purchase, you know, it was simply speculation. So Kṛṣṇa is giving us. For a karmī, it is not possible, but Kṛṣṇa gives us all facilities. You have been in that palace, Detroit? Very, very nice. Perhaps the best in our Society, huh? Hari-śauri: Without a doubt. Prabhupāda: London, that is also nice, but not as nice. The building is so strong, and the rooms are so palatial, big, big rooms. One room of this size of the whole . . . Kīrtanānanda: How big is the temple room? Hari-śauri: The temple room is not so big—fifty feet long and about thirty feet wide. Prabhupāda: Bigger than here, double. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Very nice garden. Prabhupāda: Very nice garden, and on the riverside. Kīrtanānanda: Can you bathe in the river? Hari-śauri: Sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes, if you like, you can bathe. Hari-śauri: You can drive a boat in it underneath the house. There's a dock. It's like a garage. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: All the rich people come by in their yachts all day long and wave, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Śrīla Prabhupāda said we should put a sign up on the boat, that they can drive their boat in and take prasādam and read the books. Prabhupāda: Yes. And invite them, give that signboard: "Please come, read our books and take prasādam." Gradually, they will come. Very big garden. Hari-śauri: Seven peacocks. Kīrtanānanda: Is it stone? Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: What is it, the building is stone or . . .? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Stone, marble. With golden work. Hari-śauri: The bathrooms, even the soap dishes are gold. The soap dishes, the toilet roll holder, everything is gold. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Gold wallpaper. Prabhupāda: One floor is like this. Very costly house. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They told me that the prasādam room floor alone, three hundred thousand dollars to build. And you have gotten the whole thing. Prabhupāda: Everywhere it is so beautiful, nice, strong, and quite suitable for our purpose. Everyone is living. Still, big, big three, four rooms, not yet utilized. And climate also is nice, at the present moment, huh? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: I think the same climate here. Hari-śauri: Yes, same as here. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: There was a large swimming pool. Every afternoon all the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, besides that, there is a swimming pool. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We would go out and have water fights. Prabhupāda: And they have kept five peacocks. Hari-śauri: Seven. Prabhupāda: Seven. They are very free moving, here and there, and chanting. Kīrtanānanda: They stay in the grounds? Hari-śauri: They never leave the grounds. They sleep up in one tree. Prabhupāda: They are free to move from one tree to another, but they don't go outside. Only complaint, they are eating flowers. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, they eat all the flowers. Prabhupāda: They are also trained; they are not afraid. They are sitting, you go, they are not afraid. They have been trained up that "We are at home." That animals and any birds can be trained. Just like these cows, they know that all of you are friends. Animals can understand. Even if you can make friends with the tigers and lions. Yes. I have seen it. In that New York exhibition, one man was showing me. He was embracing the lion and playing like dog. I've seen it. Hari-śauri: That used to be a circus trick as well. They used to put their heads in the lion's mouth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They keep them well fed. As long as the lion is well fed, you can put your head in his mouth, but if you don't feed him, then it is dangerous. Prabhupāda: Yes, that comes, if he's animal. (laughter) They can understand that he's giving you food, he's my friend. The love, friendship, everything is there, even in the animals. Devotee: Except God consciousness. Prabhupāda: That is possible in human life. But animal also can become God conscious by association. Kīrtanānanda: Sometimes I've heard you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that love only exists between similar categories. Prabhupāda: Similar categories, the love is very conducive. Otherwise, love is possible with any living entity. The central object of love is Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. The animals love Kṛṣṇa, the human being love Kṛṣṇa, the trees love Kṛṣṇa, the water love Kṛṣṇa—everyone love Kṛṣṇa: central point. That is the perfection of love. The Deity is kept in the same house? Original, that . . . Kīrtanānanda: But it is changed. The house is changed since you were there. Prabhupāda: Oh. "Changed" means? Kīrtanānanda: The whole downstairs has been made into a big area. Prabhupāda: But I see the marble pillar? Kīrtanānanda: Yeah, it has a marble altar. Prabhupāda: Oh. The same altar? Kīrtanānanda: No, no. Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of New Vrindavan. Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: Hmm. All right. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end) *(Conversation and Reading from Srimad*-Bhagavatam Canto 1 and 12) *Devotee (1): These are publicity for the Ratha*-yātrā. This is the article about the building, how it's the most attractive real estate near Cleveland. It's in the paint and flowers and gardens. Prabhupāda: This year's? Devotee (1): Yes. People would drive by the temple, Prabhupāda, and just look. They would drive by and look once, drive a little further and look twice and three times. Prabhupāda: But San Francisco we haven't got our temple. Devotee (1): What's that? Prabhupāda: We haven't got any temple. Devotee (1): No. We used the photograph. We made a publicity notice, a news release, and they printed it directly. It was easier for them. The picture is of San Francisco, but the festival was in Cleveland. Prabhupāda: There is no date? Hmm? Devotee (1): Maybe not in that one article. Other articles, there are dates. Prabhupāda: Is this Cleveland? *Devotee (1): Yes. There are many skyscrapers, tall buildings. There are many tall buildings, and people were looking out at the Ratha*-yātrā cart and at Lord Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: (looking through articles) Here, the date, time is. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We have found, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the buses are going to many of these cities, they have never seen our devotees, because when we go, we are dressed like they are, for distributing the books. So now the boys are going again in the streets with a kīrtana party once a week downtown, and they have all done front*-page newspaper articles, because although they have been reading the books, they have never seen the devotees in many years. I think festivals like this . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: . . . in all these cities would be very advantageous, and all the book distribution . . . *Prabhupāda: And therefore I said that introduce Ratha*-yātrā in every city. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Every city. Prabhupāda: At least wherever we have got our centers. Bring Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. They have received some testimonial from Indian . . . Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. Indian reviews? Prabhupāda: You can open this fan. (fan turned on) I don't want, but . . . *Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, how should we have these Ratha*-yātrā festivals? Should they be big? Should they be big festivals? Should I plan on having three carts next year, or just one, or a small cart? *Prabhupāda: As you can afford. Minimum one cart. Otherwise, three carts. In India the Ratha*-yātrā festival is going on, according to rough estimate, for the last two thousand years, and the crowd never diminishes. One secretary of Parliament or something like that . . . *Hari-śauri: Śrī R. Subramanian, M.A., Deputy Director Research, Lok Sabha Secretariat, National Parliament, New Delhi. Should I read it? "A strange feature of the modern world is that in spite of vast advances in science and technology and the establishment of a good number of institutions for human welfare, mankind has not found true peace and happiness. Knowledge of material sciences and arts has increased tremendously in recent times, and millions of volumes on each fill the libraries the world over. People and leaders in every country are generally well versed in these arts and sciences, but despite their efforts, human society everywhere continues to be in turmoil and distress. The reason is not far to see. It is that they have not learned the science of God, the most fundamental of every other art and science, and fail to apply it to the facts of life. The need of the hour is, therefore, to do it if mankind is not only to survive but flower into a glorious existence. To teach this science of God to people everywhere and to aid them in their progress and development towards the real goal of life, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the most eminently fitted. In fact, this great ancient work of Vyāsa will fill this need of the modern times, for it is a cultural presentation for the respiritualization of the entire human society. His Divine Grace Śrīla A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the founder-ācārya of the ISKCON movement, has taken it upon himself, in addition to his ceaseless travels and other multifarious activities in the service of the Lord, the stupendous task of translating this Sanskrit work into English in about sixty volumes for the welfare and happiness of mankind. It is really astonishing how he is able to do this single-handed, and when one comes to think of this, apart from his other great literary works, one is tempted to wonder if he is not the same Vyāsa Muni reborn today to adapt his own old work (devotees respond enthusiatically) into a universal language of this age for the spiritual upliftment of the modern man. *"So far eight volumes . . ." this should be "eighteen volumes," I think, "eighteen volumes of this most beautiful literature on God have been brought out by ISKCON, and the rest are under preparation. Needless to say that in keeping with the excellence of their other publications, the publishers have seen to it that the printing, get*-up and pictures in these volumes are also of the highest quality, as though to serve as an ornament to the divine contents of the books. This is a rare opportunity to people and leaders of every country, race and community in the world to know and understand the glorious science of God and work for their perfection. I would say that this encyclopedia of spiritual knowledge is more important and fundamental than the encyclopedia of any other branch of knowledge and should, therefore, find a rightful place not only in the public and private libraries, big and small, of educational and other institutions, as also of every household, but above all in the hearts and minds of every man and woman." That seems to be it. Prabhupāda: Now read. Pradyumna: First Canto, Chapter Five. Prabhupāda: You can keep it here. Pradyumna: Synonyms also? Read synonyms also? Prabhupāda: No, just text. Pradyumna: "Sūta Gosvāmī said: Thus the sage among the gods, Nārada . . ." Prabhupāda: Where is your son? Devotee (2): He is at Pennsylvania, the gurukula , for now. Prabhupāda: Your wife? Devotee (2): She is here. She wanted to see you. Prabhupāda: Yes? Devotee (2): She can come in? She can come in for a minute; she has the baby with her. Prabhupāda: All right, let her in. Devotee (2): This is made with wheat from the farm. Pradyumna: He's on the Pennsylvania farm, with Paramānanda. Prabhupāda: Paramānanda is there? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: They are doing well? Devotee (2): Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hear, now. Pradyumna: "Thus the sage among the gods, Nārada, comfortably seated and apparently smiling, addressed the ṛṣi amongst the brāhmaṇas , Vedavyāsa." Purport: "Nārada was smiling because he well knew the great sage Vedavyāsa and the cause of his disappointment. As he will explain gradually, Vyāsadeva's disappointment was due to insufficiency in presenting the science of devotional service. Nārada knew the defect, and it was confirmed by the position of Vyāsa." Text number two. *Translation. "Addressing Vyāsadeva, the son of Parāśara , Nārada inquired: Are you satisfied by identifying with the body or the mind as the objects of self*-realization?" *Purport: "This was a hint by Nārada to Vyāsadeva regarding the cause of his despondency. Vyāsadeva, as the descendant of Parāśara, a greatly powerful sage, had the privilege of having a great parentage, which should not have given Vyāsadeva cause for despondency. Being a great son of a great father, he should not have identified the self with the body or the mind. Ordinary men with a poor fund of knowledge can identify the body as self or the mind as self, but Vyāsadeva should not have done so. One cannot be cheerful by nature unless one is factually seated in self*-realization, which is transcendental to the material body and mind." "Your inquiries were full and your studies were also well fulfilled, and there is no doubt that you have prepared a great and wonderful work, the *Mahābhārata* , which is full of all kinds of Vedic sequences elaborately explained." Purport: "The despondency of Vyāsadeva was certainly not due to his lack of sufficient knowledge, because as a student he had fully inquired about the Vedic literatures, as a result of which the *Mahābhārata* is compiled with full explanation of the *Vedas* ." "You have fully delineated the subject of impersonal Brahman, as well as the knowledge derived therefrom. In spite of all this, why should you be despondent, thinking that you are undone, my dear prabhu ?" *Purport: "The Vedānta*-sūtra or Brahma-sūtra compiled by Śrī Vyāsadeva is the full deliberation of the impersonal absolute feature, and it is accepted as the most exalted philosophical exposition in the world. It covers the subject of eternity, and the methods are scholarly. So there cannot be any doubt about the transcendental scholarship of Vyāsadeva. So why should he lament?" *"Śrī Vyāsadeva said: All you have said about me is perfectly correct. Despite all this, I am not pacified. I therefore question you about the root cause of my dissatisfaction, for you are a man of unlimited knowledge due to your being the offspring of one, Brahmā, who is self*-born, without mundane mother and father." Purport. "In the material world everyone is engrossed with the idea of identifying the body or mind with the self. As such, all knowledge disseminated in the material world is related either with the body or with the mind, and that is the root cause of all despondencies. This is not always detected, even though one may be the greatest erudite scholar in materialistic knowledge. It is good, therefore, to approach a personality like Nārada to solve the root cause of all despondencies. Why Nārada should be approached is explained below." "My lord! Everything that is mysterious is known to you because you worship the creator and destroyer of the material world and the maintainer of the spiritual world, the original Personality of Godhead, who is transcendental to the three modes of material nature." *Purport: "A person who is cent percent engaged in the service of the Lord is the emblem of all knowledge. Such a devotee of the Lord in full perfection of devotional service is also perfect by the qualification of the Personality of Godhead. As such, the eightfold perfections of mystic power, aṣṭa*-siddhi , constitute very little of his godly opulence. A devotee like Nārada can act wonderfully by his spiritual perfection, which every individual is trying to attain. Śrīla Nārada is a cent percent perfect living being, although not equal to the Personality of Godhead." *"Like the sun, Your Goodness can travel everywhere in the three worlds, and like the air you can penetrate the internal region of everyone. As such, you are as good as the all*-pervasive Supersoul. Please, therefore, find out the deficiency in me, despite my being absorbed in transcendence under disciplinary regulations and vows." Purport: "Transcendental realization, pious activities, worshiping the Deities, charity, mercifulness, nonviolence and studying the scriptures under strict disciplinary regulations are always helpful." Text 8. "Śrī Nārada said: You have not actually broadcast the sublime and spotless glories of the Personality of Godhead. That philosophy which does not satisfy the transcendental senses of the Lord is considered worthless." *Purport: "The eternal relation of an individual soul with the Supreme Soul Personality of Godhead is constitutionally one of being the eternal servitor of the eternal master. The Lord has expanded Himself as living beings in order to accept loving service from them, and this alone can satisfy both the Lord and the living beings. A scholar like Vyāsadeva has completed many expansions of the Vedic literatures, ending with the Vedānta philosophy, but none of them have been written directly glorifying the Personality of Godhead. Dry philosophical speculations even on the transcendental subject of the Absolute have very little attraction without directly dealing with the glorification of the Lord. The Personality of Godhead is the last word in transcendental realization. The Absolute realized as impersonal Brahman or localized Supersoul, Paramātmā, is less productive of transcendental bliss than the supreme personal realization of His glories. The compiler of the Vedānta*-darśana is Vyāsadeva himself. Yet he is troubled, although he is the author. So what sort of transcendental bliss can be derived by the readers and listeners of Vedānta , which is not explained directly by Vyāsadeva the author? Herein arises the necessity of explaining Vedānta-sūtra in the form of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by the self-same author." If it hasn't been ex . . . if he has not said it, so how can they know it from Vedānta-sūtra? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pradyumna: If he has not said it, so how can they know it? "Although, great sage, you have very broadly described the four principles, beginning with religious performances, you have not described the glories of the Supreme Personality, Vāsudeva." Purport: "The prompt diagnosis of Śrī Nārada is at once declared. The root cause of the despondency of Vyāsadeva was his deliberate avoidance of glorifying the Lord in his various editions of the *Purāṇas* . He has certainly, as a matter of course, given descriptions of the glories of the Lord (Śrī Kṛṣṇa), but not as many as given to religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and salvation. These four items are by far inferior to engagement in the devotional service of the Lord. Śrī Vyāsadeva, as the authorized scholar, knew very well this difference. And still, instead of giving more importance to the better type of engagement, namely . . ." Prabhupāda: Why not go there? You can go there. Hari-śauri: In the big room? Yes. It's better. It's too crowded here. Prabhupāda: Let us go there. (break) Devotee (1): . . . trying to retire here in one year when he's through with his duties as a director of a mental hospital. Prabhupāda: Which community? Devotee (1): He plans to come here to retire in one year. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes, everyone should retire and join us. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: At least those who are above fifty years old. That is Vedic civilization. Pañcasordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet . One who is over fifty years of age, vanaṁ vrajet . So vanaṁ vrajet means completely retired from family responsibilities and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is compulsory according to Vedic civilization. Hmm. *Pradyumna: "These four items are by far inferior to engagement in the devotional service of the Lord. Śrī Vyāsadeva, as the authorized scholar, knew very well this difference, and still, instead of giving more importance to the better type of engagement, namely the devotional service of the Lord, he had more or less improperly used his valuable time, and thus he was despondent. From this it is clearly indicated that no one can be pleased substantially without being engaged in the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad*-gītā this fact is clearly mentioned. After liberation, which is the last item in the line of performing religiosity, etcetera, one is engaged in pure devotional service. This is called the stage of self-realization, or brahma-bhūta stage. After attainment of this brahma-bhūta stage one is satisfied, but satisfaction is the beginning of transcendental bliss. One should progress by attaining neutrality and equality in the relative world. In passing this stage of equanimity, one is fixed up in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. This is the instruction of the Personality of Godhead in the Bhagavad-gītā . The conclusion is that in order to maintain the status quo of the brahma-bhūta stage, as also to increase the degree of transcendental realization, it is recommended by Nārada to Vyāsadeva that he, Vyāsadeva, should now eagerly and repeatedly describe the path of devotional service. This would cure him from gross despondency." "Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows." Prabhupāda: Just like the modern newspaper. Huge bundle of newspaper every morning, huh? So it is, as it is said here, the place of enjoyment for the crows. Hmm? What is that? Pradyumna: Vāyasaṁ tīrtham . *Prabhupāda: Vāyasaṁ . Vāyasaṁ means crows. The crows, they take pleasure in a place where all rubbish and refuses are thrown. They take pleasure. So what is this newspaper? All rubbish things, they are collected together. Nobody likes it to read. They just glance over for a few minutes, and then it is thrown away, rubbish. And even it is thrown there, nobody touches it. So they are spending huge, so many newspapers. Each newspaper several editions in a day, huge establishment, but there is no substance of life. That is being described. Na yad vacaś citra*-padaṁ harer yaśo . Read it. Pradyumna: *"Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows. Since the all*-perfect persons are inhabitants of the transcendental abode, they do not derive any pleasure there." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Pradyumna: "Crows and swans are not birds of the same feather because of their different mental attitudes. The fruitive workers or passionate men are compared to the crows, whereas the all*-perfect saintly persons are compared to the swans. Crows take pleasure in a place where garbage is thrown out, just as the passionate fruitive workers take pleasure in wine and women and places for gross sense pleasure. The swans do not take pleasure in the places where crows are assembled for conferences and meetings. They are instead seen in the atmosphere of natural scenic beauty, where there are transparent reservoirs of water nicely decorated with stems of lotus flowers in variegated colors of natural beauty. That is the difference between the two classes of birds. "Nature has influenced different species of life with different mentalities, and it is not possible to bring them up into the same rank and file. Similarly, there are different kinds of literature for different types of men of different mentality. Mostly the market literatures which attract men of the crow's categories are literatures containing refuse remnants of sensuous topics. They are generally known as mundane talks in relation with the gross body and subtle mind. They are full of subject matter described in decorative language full of mundane similies and metaphorical arrangements. Yet with all that, they do not glorify the Lord. Such poetry and prose on any subject matter is considered decoration of a dead body. Spiritually advanced men, who are compared with the swans, do not take pleasure in such dead literatures, which are sources of pleasure for men who are spiritually dead. These literatures in the modes of passion and ignorance are distributed under different labels, but they can hardly help the spiritual urge of the human being, and thus the swanlike spiritually advanced men have nothing to do with them. "Such spiritually advanced men are called also mānasa , because they always keep up the standard of transcendental voluntary service to the Lord on the spiritual plane. This completely forbids fruitive activities for gross bodily sense satisfaction or subtle speculation of the material egoistic mind. Social literary men, scientists, mundane poets, theoretical philosophers and politicians who are completely absorbed in the material advancement of sense pleasure are all dolls of the material energy. They take pleasure in a place where rejected subject matters are thrown. According to Śrīdhara Swami, this is the pleasure of the prostitute hunters. But literatures which describe the glories of the Lord are enjoyed by the paramahaṁsas who have grasped the essence of human activities." When you said that transcendentally spiritually advanced men are called mānasa , that means "with the mind," because they are always thinking of? Prabhupāda: Yes, always. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa padāravindayoḥ (SB 9.4.18). They are thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Pradyumna: "On the other hand, that literature which is full of pastimes of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etcetera, of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest." *Purport: "It is a qualification of the great thinkers to pick up the best even from the worst. It is said that the intelligent man should pick up nectar from a stock of poison, should accept gold even from a filthy place, should accept a good and qualified wife even from an obscure family, and should accept a good lesson even from a man or from a teacher who comes from the untouchables. These are some of the ethical instructions for everyone in every place without exception. But a saint is far above the level of an ordinary man, and he is always absorbed in glorifying the Supreme Lord, because by broadcasting the holy name and fame of the Supreme Lord the polluted atmosphere of the world will change, and as a result of propagating the transcendental literatures like Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , people will become sane in their transactions. *"While preparing this commentation on this particular stanza of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam we have a crisis before us. Our neighboring friend China has attacked the border of India with a militaristic spirit. We have practically no business in the political field, yet we see that previously there were both China and India, and they both lived peacefully for centuries without ill feeling. The reason is that they lived those days in an atmosphere of God consciousness, and every country over the surface of the world was God-fearing, pure-hearted and simple, and there was no question of political diplomacy. There was no cause of quarrel between the two countries of China and India over land which is not very suitable for habitation, and certainly there was no cause for fighting on this issue. But due to the age of quarrel, Kali, which we have discussed, there is always a chance of quarrel on slight provocation. This is due not to the issue in question but to the polluted atmosphere of this age. Systematically there is propaganda by a section of people to stop glorification of the name and fame of the Supreme Lord. Therefore there is great need for disseminating the message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam all over the world. It is the duty of every responsible Indian to broadcast the transcendental message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam throughout the world to do all the supermost good, as well as to bring about the desired peace in the world. Because India has failed in her duty by neglecting this responsible work, there is so much quarrel and trouble all over the world. We are confident that if the transcendental message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is received only by the leading men of the world, certainly there will be a change of heart, and naturally the people in general will follow them. The mass of people in general are tools in the hands of modern politicians and leaders of the people. If there is a change of heart of the leaders only, certainly there will be a radical change in the atmosphere of the world. We know that our honest attempt to present this great literature conveying transcendental messages for reviving the God consciousness of the people in general and respiritualizing the world atmosphere is fraught with many difficulties. Our presenting this matter in adequate language, especially a foreign language, will certainly fail, and there will be so many literary discrepancies despite our honest attempt to present it in the proper way. But we are sure that with all our faults in this connection, the seriousness of the subject matter will be taken into consideration, and the leaders of society will still accept this, due to its being an honest attempt to glorify the almighty God. When there is fire in a house, the inmates of the house go out to get help from the neighbors, who may be foreigners, and yet without knowing the language, the victims of the fire express themselves and the neighbors understand the need, even though not expressed in the same language. The same spirit of cooperation is needed to broadcast this transcendental message of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam throughout the polluted atmosphere of the world. After all, it is a technical science of spiritual values, and thus we are concerned with the techniques and not with the language. If the techniques of this great literature are understood by the people of the world, there will be success. *"When there are too many materialistic activities by the people in general all over the world, there is no wonder that a person or nation attacks another person or nation on slight provocation. That is the rule of this age of Kali, or quarrel. The atmosphere is already polluted with corruption of all description, and everyone knows it well. There are so many unwanted literatures full of materialistic ideas of sense gratification. The people in general want to read. That is a natural instinct. But because their minds are polluted, they want such literatures. Under the circumstances, transcendental literature like Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam will not only diminish the activities of the corrupt minds of the people in general, but also it will supply food for their hankering after reading some interesting literature. In the beginning they may not like it, because one suffering from jaundice is reluctant to take sugar candy, but we should know that sugar candy is the only remedy for the jaundice. Similarly, let there be systematic propaganda for popularizing reading of the Bhagavad-gītā and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which will act like sugar candy for the jaundicelike condition of sense gratification. When men have a taste for this literature, the other literatures, which are catering poison to society, will then automatically cease. We are sure therefore that everyone in the human society will welcome Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , even though it is now presented with so many faults, for it is recommended by Śrī Nārada, who has very kindly appeared in this chapter." Prabhupāda: So what other literatures say? There is not one. In our Society we do not read even newspaper, is it not? Do we? Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only in context to our preaching work. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But generally . . . we do not derive any benefit from those. People read it, especially in the Western county. If there is no newspaper it is hell. I told you this story? Yes. You can repeat that. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The preacher was preaching to the coal miners that if they were not good, they would go to hell, and in hell it was very cold. So they were thinking, "So it is very cold in the mine." Then he was saying that it is very dark in hell. "But it is very dark in the mine." Then he said, "And there are no newspapers." "Oh, how horrible! What a horrible place that must be." Prabhupāda: When they heard in the hell there is no newspaper, then came to the idea, "Oh, it is horrible." Otherwise, cold, dark, "Oh, this is our custom. We are already accustomed to these habits, we are working in the mine. So don't make any distinction between hell and our present residential quarters. But if there is no newspaper, certainly that is hell." Pradyumna: *"Knowledge of self*-realization, even though freed from all material affinity, does not look well if devoid of a conception of the infallible God. What then is the use of fruitive activities, which are naturally painful from the very beginning and transient by nature, if they are not utilized for the devotional service of the Lord?" *Purport: "As referred to above, not only ordinary literatures devoid of the transcendental glorification of the Lord are condemned, but also Vedic literatures and speculation on the subject of impersonal Brahman when they are devoid of devotional service. When speculation on the impersonal Brahman is condemned on the above ground, then what to speak of ordinary fruitive work, which is not meant to fulfill the aim of devotional service. Such speculative knowledge and fruitive work cannot lead one to the goal of perfection. Fruitive work, in which almost all people in general are engaged, is always painful, either in the beginning or at the end. It can only be fruitful when made subservient to the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad*-gītā also it is confirmed that the result of such fruitive work may be offered for the service of the Lord, otherwise it leads to material bondage. The bona fide enjoyer of the fruitive work is the Personality of Godhead. And thus when it is engaged for the sense gratification of the living entities, it becomes an acute source of trouble." "O Vyāsadeva, your vision is completely perfect. Your good fame is spotless, you are firm in vow and situated in truthfulness, and thus you can think of the pastimes of the Lord in trance for the liberation of the people in general from all material bondage." Purport: "People in general have a taste for literature by instinct. They want to hear and read from the authorities something about the unknown, but their taste is exploited by unfortunate literatures, which are full of subject matter for satisfaction of the material senses. Such literatures contain different kinds of mundane poems and philosophical speculations more or less under the influence of māyā , ending in sense gratification. These literatures, although worthless in the true sense of the term, are variously decorated to attract the attention of the less intelligent men. Thus the attracted living entities are more and more entangled in material bondage without hope of liberation for thousands and thousands of generations. "Śrī Nārada Ṛṣi, being the best among the Vaiṣṇavas, is compassionate on such unfortunate victims of worthless literatures, and thus he advises Śrī Vyāsadeva to compose transcendental literature which is not only attractive but can also actually bring liberation from all kinds of bondage. Śrīla Vyāsadeva or his representatives are qualified because they are rightly trained to see things in true perspective. Śrīla Vyāsadeva and his representatives are pure in thought due to their spiritual enlightenment; fixed in their vows, due to their devotional service; *and determined to deliver the fallen souls rotting in material activities. The fallen souls are very eager to receive novel informations every day, and the transcendentalists like Vyāsadeva or Nārada can supply such eager people in general with unlimited news from the spiritual world. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that the material world is only a part of the whole creation, and that this earth is only a fragment of the whole material world. *"There are thousands and thousands of literary men all over the world, and they have created many, many thousands of literary works for the information of the people in general for thousands and thousands of years. Unfortunately . . . (break) . . . effect of liberation from the pangs of material civilization, which is eating the vital parts of the human energy. The Bhagavad*-gītā , which is the spoken message of the Lord Himself recorded by Vyāsadeva, and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which is the transcendental narration of the activities of the same Lord Kṛṣṇa, which alone can satisfy the hankering desires of the living being for eternal peace and liberation from miseries. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is, therefore, meant for all the living beings all over the universe for total liberation from all kinds of material bondage. Such transcendental narrations of the pastimes of the Lord can only be described by liberated souls like Vyāsadeva and his bona fide representatives, who are completely merged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. Only to such devotees do the pastimes of the Lord and their transcendental nature become automatically manifest by dint of devotional service. No one else can either know or describe the acts of the Lord, even if they speculate on the subject for many, many years. The descriptions of the Bhāgavatam are so precise and accurate that whatever has been predicted in this great literature about five thousand years before is now exactly happening. Therefore the vision of the author comprehends past, present and future. Such liberated persons like Vyāsadeva are not only perfect by the power of vision and wisdom but also in aural reception, in thinking, feeling and all other sense activities. A liberated person possesses perfect senses, and with perfect senses only can one serve the sense proprietor, Hṛṣīkeśa, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is therefore the perfect description of the all-perfect Personality of Godhead by the all-perfect personality, Śrī Vyāsadeva, the compiler of the Vedas ." Hari-śauri: Bring that chair forward. Prabhupāda: No, that's . . . (indistinct) Pradyumna: "Whatever you desire to describe which is separate in vision from the Lord simply reacts with different forms, names and results to agitate the mind, as the wind agitates a boat which has no resting place." *Purport: "Śrī Vyāsadeva is the editor of all descriptions of the Vedic literatures, and thus he has described transcendental realization in different ways, namely by fruitive activities, speculative knowledge, mystic power and devotional service. Besides that, in his various Purāṇas he has recommended the worship of so many demigods in different forms and names. The result is that people in general are puzzled how to fix up their minds in the service of the Lord. They are always disturbed to find out the real path of self*-realization. Śrīla Nāradadeva is stressing this particular defect in the Vedic literatures compiled by Vyāsadeva, and thus he is trying to emphasize describing everything in relation with the Supreme Lord and no one else. In fact there is nothing existent except the Lord. The Lord is manifested in different expansions. He is the root of the complete tree. He is the stomach of the complete body. As such, pouring water on the root is the right process to water the tree, as much as feeding the stomach supplies energy to all parts of the body. *"Śrīla Vyāsadeva should not have compiled any Purāṇas other than the Bhāgavata Purāṇa , because a slight deviation from that may create havoc for self*-realization. If a slight deviation can create such havoc, then what to speak of deliberate expansion of the separatist idea from the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead? The most defective part of worshiping demigods is that it creates a definite conception of pantheism, ending disastrously in many religious sects detrimental to the progress of the principles of the Bhāgavatam , which alone can give the accurate direction for self-realization in eternal relation with the Personality of Godhead by devotional service in transcendental love. The example of the boat disturbed by whirling wind is suitable in this respect. The diverted mind of the pantheist can never reach to the perfection of self-realization, due to the disturbed condition of the selections of object." "The people in general are naturally inclined to enjoy, and you have encouraged them in that way in the name of religion. This is verily condemned and is quite unreasonable. Because they are guided under your instructions, they will accept such activities in the name of religion and will hardly care for prohibitions." *Purport: "Śrīla Vyāsadeva's compilation of various Vedic literatures on the basis of regulated performances of fruitive activities as depicted in the Mahābhārata and other literature is condemned herewith by Śrīla Nārada. The human beings, by long material association life after life, have a natural inclination by practice to endeavor to lord it over material energy. They have no sense of the responsibility of human life. This human form of life is a chance to get out of the clutches of illusory matter. The Vedas are meant for going back to Godhead, going back home. To revolve in the cycle of transmigration in a series of lives numbering 8,400,000 is an imprisoned life for the condemned conditioned souls. The human form of life is a chance to get out of this imprisoned life, and as such the only occupation of the human being is to reestablish his lost relationship with God. Under the circumstances, one should never be encouraged in making a plan for sense enjoyment in the name of religious functions. Such diversion of the human energy results in a misguided civilization. Śrīla Vyāsadeva is the authority in Vedic explanations and the Mahābhārata , etcetera, and his encouragement in sense enjoyment in some form or other is a great barrier for spiritual advancement, because the people in general will not agree to renounce material activities, which hold them in material bondage. At a certain stage of human civilization such material activities in the name of religion, as sacrificing animals in the name of yajña , were too much rampant. The Lord incarnated Himself as Buddha and decried the authority of the Vedas to stop animal sacrifice in the name of religion. This was foreseen by Nārada, and therefore he condemned such literatures. The flesh*-eaters still continue to perform animal sacrifice before some demigod or goddess in the name of religion, because in some of the Vedic literatures such regulated sacrifice is recommended. They are so recommended to discourage flesh eating, but gradually the purpose of such religious activities is forgotten and the slaughterhouse becomes prominent. This is because foolish materialistic men do not care to listen to others who are actually in a position to explain the Vedic rites. *"In the Vedas it is distinctly said that the perfection of life is never to be attained either by voluminous work or by accumulation of wealth or even by increasing the number of population, but it is so attained only by renunciation. The materialistic men do not care to listen to such injunctions. According to them, the so*-called renounced order of life is meant for those who are unable to earn their livelihood because of some corporeal defects or for persons who have failed to achieve prosperity in family life. In histories like the Mahābhārata , of course, there are topics on transcendental subjects along with material topics. The Bhagavad-gītā is there in the Mahābhārata . The whole idea of the Mahābhārata is culminated in the ultimate instructions of the Bhagavad-gītā , that one should relinquish all other engagements and should engage oneself solely and fully in surrendering unto the lotus feet of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. But men with materialistic tendencies are more attracted to politics, economics and philanthropic activities mentioned in the Mahābhārata than to the principal topic, namely the Bhagavad-gītā . This compromising spirit of Vyāsadeva is directly condemned by Nārada, who advises him to directly proclaim that the prime necessity of human life is to realize one's eternal relation with the Lord and thus surrender unto Him without delay. A patient suffering from a particular type of malady is almost always inclined to accept eatables which are forbidden for him. The expert physician does not make any compromise with the patient by allowing him to take partially what he should not take at all. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said that a man attached to fruitive work should not be discouraged from his occupation, for gradually he may be elevated to the position of self-realization. This is sometimes applicable for those who are only dry empiric philosophers without spiritual realization, but those who are in the devotional line need not be always so advised." "The Supreme Lord is unlimited. Only a very expert personality retired from the activities of material happiness deserves to understand this knowledge of spiritual values. Therefore those who are not so well situated due to material attachment should be shown the ways of transcendental realization by Your Goodness through descriptions of the transcendental activities of the Supreme Lord." *Purport: "Theological science is a difficult subject, especially when it deals with the transcendental nature of God. It is not a subject matter to be understood by persons who are too much attached to material activities. Only the very expert, who have almost retired from materialistic activities, by culture of spiritual knowledge can be admitted to the study of this great science. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is clearly stated that out of many hundreds and thousands of men, only one person deserves to enter into transcendental realization, and out of many thousands of such transcendentally realized persons, only a few can understand the theological science specifically dealing with God as a person. Śrī Vyāsadeva is therefore advised by Nārada to describe the science of God directly by relating His transcendental activities. Vyāsadeva is himself a personality expert in this science, and he is unattached to material enjoyment; therefore he is the right person to describe it. And Sukadeva Gosvāmī, the son of Vyāsadeva, is the right person to receive it. *" Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, and therefore it can react on the layman as medicinal doses. Because it contains the transcendental activities of the Lord, there is no difference between the Lord and the literature. The literature is the factual literary incarnation of the Lord so the laymen can hear the narration of the activities of the Lord. Thereby they are able to associate with the Lord and thus gradually become purified from material diseases. The expert devotees also can discover novel ways and means to convert the nondevotee in terms of particular time and circumstance. Devotional service is dynamic activities, and the expert devotees can find out competent means to inject it into the dull brains of the materialistic population. Such transcendental activities of the devotees for the service of the Lord can bring a new order of life to the foolish society of materialistic men. Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His subsequent followers exhibited expert dexterity in this connection. By following the same method one can bring the materialistic men of this age of quarrel into order for peaceful life and transcendental realization." Prabhupāda: What is the time now? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: About 7:20, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Should we take your leave? Prabhupāda: Any question regarding this? *Pradyumna: Says " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, therefore it can react on the layman as medicinal doses"? Prabhupāda: If they simply hear, it will act as medicine. *Devotee (1): Vyāsadeva is called tri*-kala-jñā —he sees past, present and future. How is it that he sees the future, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (indistinct—microphone rattling) Just like common business. Bring that black Bhāgavata . Five thousand years before *Bhāgavatam* was written, and so many foretelling are there, and they are arguing (microphone rattling—indistinct). If you like, you can keep it open. (referring to door) Devotee (2): I was looking just now to see if my wife had . . . (indistinct) . . . can come in . . . (indistinct) . . . thought to open the door. Prabhupāda: Twelfth Canto, Third Chapter. *Pradyumna: Tataś cānu*-dinaṁ dharmaḥ ? Prabhupāda: Hmm, before that. Pradyumna: That is first chapter. *Prabhupāda: Read it, tataś cānu*-dinam , it is third chapter. Pradyumna: This is second. Prabhupāda: First chapter, by the end, what it is written? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: (microphone rattling—indistinct) What is the last verse you read? Pradyumna: Yes, this is the last verse. It says everyone is rājabhiś ca kṣayaṁ yāsyanti pīḍitāḥ . Prabhupāda: What is the note? *Pradyumna: (Śrīdhara Svāmī's commentary) kiṁ ca , tan nāthas te nātha yeṣaṁ te jana*-pada deśa-vartino manuṣyas tac-chīlācārādinas teṣam iva śrīlamācāro . . . *Prabhupāda: The purport is that in the Kali*-yuga, the government men, they will be all rogues and thieves. So the citizens also follow them. Tan-natha , śīlācārya . Śīlācārya is their behavior. If the politicians, secretaries and big, big officers going to the brothels and drinking wine and enjoying, then what others will not? They will . . . (indistinct) . . . that's all. Go on, second chapter. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Note? *Pradyumna: Says that, er, kali*-dharmān prapañcayati-tataś cetyādinā . Prabhupāda: That's all? Pradyumna: Yes. He doesn't say. *Prabhupāda: How things will deteriorate, that is explained here. Tataś cānu*-dinam ? Pradyumna: Dharmaḥ satyaṁ śaucam . . . *Prabhupāda: With the progress of the Kali*-yuga . . . the Kali-yuga has begun from the . . . after the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra. So five thousand years ago. The whole duration of life of Kali-yuga is thirty-two hundred thousands of years. Thirty-two hundred thousands of years, out of which we have passed only five thousand years. Still, the balance is twenty-seven hundred thousands of years. So with the progress of this age, these things will happen. What is that? Tataś cānu-dinam ? Pradyumna: Dharmaḥ satyam . Prabhupāda: Dharmaḥ . People will gradually decrease in their sense of religiosity, dharmaḥ . Then? Pradyumna: Satyam . *Prabhupāda: They will be untruthful, hardly, because there is no training of brahminical culture how to become truthful. People think that "What is the wrong there, I shall speak something untruth?" So that means the value of truthfulness will decrease. And the importance of religion will decrease. This is the symptoms of Kali*-yuga. Then? Pradyumna: Śaucam . Prabhupāda: Śaucam , cleanliness. People will become unclean more and more. Then? Pradyumna: Kṣamā . Prabhupāda: Kṣamā . Formerly saintly persons and leaders, they used to excuse. Now that, the sense of excusing, "All right, this man has done something, excuse him," that will decrease. The sense of religiosity, truthfulness, and . . .? Pradyumna: Truthfulness, cleanliness, śaucam . Prabhupāda: Cleanliness. Pradyumna: Kṣamā . Prabhupāda: And kṣamā , kṣamā means pardon. Then? Pradyumna: Dayā . Prabhupāda: Dayā , mercifulness. People will have no mercy. It has already begun. If somebody is attacked, being killed, nobody takes care; he goes in his own way. There is no mercy. There is no mercy to the animals. Now there is no mercy even to one's child; *one's own child, they are killing. Just see how degraded, dayā . What to speak of no dayā , no mercy for the animals—all right, you are not so advanced—but the mother's mercy to the child will be diminished. This is foretelling. This is called tri*-kala-jñā . Who expected that mother will kill the child? But Vyāsadeva, five thousand years ago, said, "Yes, mercy will be reduced." Then? Pradyumna: Āyur . *Prabhupāda: Āyur , duration of life. The maximum duration of life in Kali*-yuga is hundred years, but who is living hundred years? It is being reduced, and it will be so reduced that if a man would live twenty years, he is an old man. It will come to that stage. Now it is reducing, from hundred years to ninety years to eighty years. *Hari-śauri: The average is seventy*-three years now. Prabhupāda: Seventy, then sixty then fifty. In this way, if a man lives from twenty to thirty years he will be considered grand old man. (laughter) These are the symptoms, āyur . Then? Pradyumna: Balam . Prabhupāda: And bodily strength. Bodily strength . . . in India we, in our childhood, I have seen when British rule was there, all the Europeans were coming, very strong and stout and strong. Now such Europeans are not coming. Even bodily strength reduced. Then? Pradyumna: Smṛtiḥ . *Prabhupāda: And memory. It will reduce. Just see, compare everything—religiosity and the power of mercifulness, pardoning, truthfulness, cleanliness, bodily strength, duration of life—they're all reduced. Now who can say it is not reduced? Can you say? This is called tri*-kala-jñā . Tatas , what is that? Cānu-dinaṁ rājan ? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Kālena , in due course of time, all these items—there are eight items—it will be reducing, reducing, reducing. Reducing, reducing so much. So what is that? Devotee (3): They say that men are living longer now compared to five hundred or six hundred years ago. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (3): They say that men are living longer now. The scientists, they say that there's less disease. They say that a hundred years ago people had more disease than . . . now they live longer. *Prabhupāda: That these rascals say. We do not say. We have seen in our childhood that my grandmother, she died at the age of ninety*-six years. There was no disease. The scientists say that there was disease, now there is no disease? Devotee (3): They say there is less disease now. They say that . . . Prabhupāda: Less disease—everyone suffering from cancer. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They are building more hospitals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Not less. Prabhupāda: Just see. They're increasing number of hospitals, and there is no disease? Devotee (3): They say that a child has more of a chance of living now than . . . Prabhupāda: "They say," but what is the practical? They say all, as I repeatedly, pagale ki na bole chakole ki na khaya . A madman, what does he not say, and a goat, what does he not eat? So they are all madmen. (laughter) They can say all everything. Devotee (1): They are experimenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with genes now. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (1): You say that we are losing the qualities of memory, strength, but they are experimenting where they can isolate genes of persons who have those qualities and then put on . . . Prabhupāda: But we have to see actually what is happening. Devotee (4): They are also transplanting livers and hearts, increasing the duration of life. Prabhupāda: So whatever they may do, things will happen like this. This is a fact. Can they increase the duration of life? People, can they make any scientific discovery that no man will die less than hundred years? Is there any such discovery? Hari-śauri: The only discoveries they have made so far are how to kill people quicker. Prabhupāda: Yes. Is there any discovery that here is a pill, you go on taking it, you'll not die before hundred years? Is there any discovery? Then what is the use of talking nonsense? They are reducing their life, that's a fact. And so far as mercy is concerned, we see how much it is reduced. The mother is killing child. Where is mercy now? So they may say anything like madman, but we see practically what is happening. Then? Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: So vittam , money. Money is the criterion, not family. Formerly, there was family, respectable family, aristocratic family, brāhmaṇa family, kṣatriya family. All these things are gone now. If you accumulate some money some way or other, then you are respectable, never mind what you are. That is Kali*-yuga symptom: their position in society, if you want to be respectable man, you somehow or other gather money. Never mind how we have gathered, what is the method. It doesn't matter. Get some money and you become respectable. Vittam eva hi . *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . Prabhupāda: Ah, janmācāra . First of all, janma , the family, heredity, was taken into consideration, but that is now forgotten. Get money. Just like in England that the British Empire policy was that you bring money from outside and deposit in the government treasury and you become lord. Is it not? Bring money, some way or other. So that was going on, exploiting. They used to go to the foreign countries and somehow or other accumulate money. Just like Lord Clive. He was a street boy, but he made some policy. In this way, diplomacy, he entered into Bengal and got some money, and Lord Clive, he became Lord Clive. So money is the criterion. Some way or other, bring money, that's all. That's a fact. These are the symptoms. Just try to understand. *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . Prabhupāda: If you have money, then you are aristocratic; then whatever you do, it is all right. Janmācāra , then? Pradyumna: Guṇa . Prabhupāda: Guṇa . You are most qualified man. You may be a drunkard, you may be a prostitute hunter, whatever you may be, but because you have money you are a qualified man. Then? *Pradyumna: Janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . Prabhupāda: Go on. *Pradyumna: Dharma*-nyāya-vyavasthāyāṁ kāraṇaṁ balam eva hi . *Prabhupāda: Dharma*-nyāya . Now, if you want justice, you can get it according to your desire, justice, if you have got money. That is going on, that if you bribe to the court's men and even to the judge or magistrate, you get justice accordingly. That is going on. Dharma ācāra . Then? Pradyumna: Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dāmpatye ? Pradyumna: Dāmpatye abhirucir , hetur . . . *Prabhupāda: Abhirucir , yes. Now formerly marriage was a religious ceremony. Marriage was, this boy and this girl should be married, it is a religious function where the father and mother will see their horoscope and see if they are compatible, they will agree, they will live peacefully. So many things are there. Still, in India such things are calculated by the parents of the boy and the girl. Now, in this Kali*-yuga, you see, dāmpatye abhirucir . Abhirucir means the boy and the girl, if he likes, if he says, that's all. No other calculation. And then, after three days after marriage, they will divorce. (laughter) Because abhirucir , abhirucir : "I like, I don't like," that's all. Now I like, and after three days don't like, finished, business. In Chicago I saw a newspaper. One girl, within three weeks she has divorced two husbands. (laughter) Yes, I saw it in the newspaper. So this . . . formerly the father, mother used to see that this boy and girl is going to be married. So by horoscope, by other circumstances, by family, cultural . . . (indistinct) . . . by education, so many things, whether they will live peacefully. That was the understanding. Husband-wife means, a man requires a woman, a woman requires a man. They should be combined in such a way that they can live peacefully. If there is no disturbance of the mind, then they can make further progress in spiritual life. Therefore marriage is also necessary, and that must be properly done. This was the . . . now there is no such consideration. The boys and girls are free, and if one likes the other . . . dāmpatye . . . what is that? Pradyumna: Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Ruci . Ruci means liking. Then? Pradyumna: I think it is māyaiva vyāvahārike . *Prabhupāda: Ah, māyaiva vyāvahārike . In ordinary dealings there is cheating. This is Kali*-yuga. Ordinarily, even when gentleman-gentleman, so-called gentlemen talking, he's trying to cheat him, he's trying to cheat him. By talking. And ordinarily. Māyaiva vyāvahārike . To talk with gentleman-gentleman, it is ordinary thing, but still there will be so many untruthfulness. Māyaiva vyāvahārike . Then? Pradyumna: Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir vipratve sūtram eva hi . Prabhupāda: Hmm. And woman is nice, man is nice, this should be considered by sex power. Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir . Then? Pradyumna: Vipratve sūtram eva hi . Prabhupāda: Vipratve sūtram eva hi . And there is a brāhmaṇa —what is the proof that he is a brāhmaṇa ? He has got a sacred thread, that's all. Or thread. It may not be sacred; *purchased from the market. So at least we try to give a sacred thread by ceremony. But anyone can purchase a thread from the market, two*-paisa worth or one-cent worth, and become a brāhmaṇa . "You are a brāhmaṇa ?" "Yes, you see my sacred thread?" (laughter) Finished. "What you are doing?" "Never mind." Don't be such brāhmaṇas , at least in our camp. You must follow the rules and regulations. Don't show that "I am now doubly initiated, sacred thread." Don't cheat in that way. Vipratve sūtram eva hi . Then? *Pradyumna: Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv . *Prabhupāda: Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv . There are āśramas—brahmacārī , sannyāsī , gṛhastha . So they have got different dresses. So Kali-yuga, simply by dress he becomes a brahmacārī , he become a gṛhastha , he becomes a sannyāsī . Simply by dress. What he is acting, nobody cares, that's all. Then? Pradyumna: Liṅgam , eva . Prabhupāda: Liṅgam means the external feature. This is the dress of a sannyāsī , this is the dress of a gṛhastha . Just like daṇḍa . Daṇḍa is the symptom that he is a sannyāsī . Then? *Pradyumna: Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv anyonyāpatti-kāraṇam . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then? *Pradyumna: Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . *Prabhupāda: Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . If you have no money, then you cannot get justice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cannot get . . .? *Prabhupāda: Justice. First of all you have to pay government so many percentage of money. Suppose somebody owes to you some money and he's not giving you. So if you want to go to the court, first of all you have to spend so much money. And if you have no money, then you cannot get your justice, money back. You have to pay this lawyer's fee, the stand duty, and so on, so on. But if you say, "I have no money," then forget justice. That's all. Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . Pradyumna: Pāṇḍitye cāpalaṁ vacaḥ . Prabhupāda: Paṇḍita: if you can speak very vehemently any subject matter, people may or may not understand, and they will certify you, "Oh, this man is very learned." "What you have learned from him?" "Oh, I could not understand, but he spoke very nicely. He spoke very nicely." What is that nicely? That cāpala . (Prabhupāda speaks some gibberish) You go on speaking like that, (devotees laugh) and people will appreciate, "Oh, he's a big speaker!" What have you learned from him? Then? Pradyumna: Then anadhyataivasādhutve sādhutve dambha eva tu . Prabhupāda: And if you are poor man, then you are not honest. That is the criterion. "Oh, here is a . . ." When the poor man comes, you'll not give place at your place. If he wants to stay, you'll refuse: "No." Because he's poor, he's immediately accepted as dishonest. He may be honest or dishonest, but poverty is a sign for accepting a man as dishonest. Then? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hmm. Svīkāra eva codvāhe . Marriage will go on simply by agreement, not by qualification. Svīkāra eva codvāhe . Snānam eva prasādhanam . And if you take bath, then all bodily cleanliness is finished, that's all. Then? *Pradyumna: Dūre vāry*-ay . . . *Prabhupāda: Vāry*-ayanam . Pradyumna: Oh. Dūre . . . *Prabhupāda: Dūre vāry*-ayanaṁ tīrtham . Tīrtham . If you go . . . Just like there is Vṛndāvana and here is New Vrindavan. But if you spend ten thousand dollars and go to Vṛndāvana, then it is pilgrimage. And here is Vṛndāvana-candra—so that is not very important. Dūre vāry-ayanam . You have to go far, far away, (laughter) then it will be pilgrimage. In India, there is Ganges in Calcutta. But they go to Hardwar. Then it is pilgrimage. (laughter) The same Ganges, coming from Hardwar. Then? *Pradyumna: Dūre vāry*-ayanaṁ tīrthaṁ lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam . *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lāvaṇyam , now you know very well in the Western country. Beauty increases by having long hair. (laughter) I was just trying to recite this verse only, and now see how it is current. Who expected that this foretelling is there in the Bhāgavatam ? To increase beauty, have long hair. Is it not? Now just see. How five thousand years this thing was foretold? That is the proof. There was no hippie movement then. (laughs) But Vyāsadeva foretold that in the Kali*-yuga, if one keeps long hair he will think himself as very beautiful. There are so many things. *So ultimately, with the advancement of Kali*-yuga you'll have no food. Food means there will be no food grains, there will be no milk, there will be no sugar—like that. No fruits. If you get fruits, there will be no pulp; it is simply seeds. These things are there. You get a mango, but a mango means simply the big seed, that's all. So how can you check it? If nature's way things are going to happen like that, what the scientists will do? If there is no rice, no wheat, will the scientists . . .? They can say replace with a pill, but they cannot produce wheat or rice or ḍāl or milk, sugar. That is not possible. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? They have fashioned a way for the spacemen that they can drink their own urine and eat their own stool. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the most scientific improvement. (laughter) Yes. That they can do. (laughter) By scientific improvement, they can drink their own urine, very tasty. That is possible. Devotee (1): With all these disqualifications, how can the general mass of people take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only remedy. That is stated there. You'll find this verse, *It is, the Kali*-yuga, it is an ocean of faults. How . . .? Suppose all over your body there are boils. So where you will apply ointment? You just dip down. (laughter) (end) *(Conversation and Reading from Srimad*-Bhagavatam Canto 1 and 12) *Devotee (1): These are publicity for the Ratha*-yātrā. This is the article about the building, how it's the most attractive real estate near Cleveland. It's in the paint and flowers and gardens. Prabhupāda: This year's? Devotee (1): Yes. People would drive by the temple, Prabhupāda, and just look. They would drive by and look once, drive a little further and look twice and three times. Prabhupāda: But San Francisco we haven't got our temple. Devotee (1): What's that? Prabhupāda: We haven't got any temple. Devotee (1): No. We used the photograph. We made a publicity notice, a news release, and they printed it directly. It was easier for them. The picture is of San Francisco, but the festival was in Cleveland. Prabhupāda: There is no date? Hmm? Devotee (1): Maybe not in that one article. Other articles, there are dates. Prabhupāda: Is this Cleveland? *Devotee (1): Yes. There are many skyscrapers, tall buildings. There are many tall buildings, and people were looking out at the Ratha*-yātrā cart and at Lord Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: (looking through articles) Here, the date, time is. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We have found, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the buses are going to many of these cities, they have never seen our devotees, because when we go, we are dressed like they are, for distributing the books. So now the boys are going again in the streets with a kīrtana party once a week downtown, and they have all done front*-page newspaper articles, because although they have been reading the books, they have never seen the devotees in many years. I think festivals like this . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: . . . in all these cities would be very advantageous, and all the book distribution . . . *Prabhupāda: And therefore I said that introduce Ratha*-yātrā in every city. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Every city. Prabhupāda: At least wherever we have got our centers. Bring Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. They have received some testimonial from Indian . . . Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. Indian reviews? Prabhupāda: You can open this fan. (fan turned on) I don't want, but . . . *Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, how should we have these Ratha*-yātrā festivals? Should they be big? Should they be big festivals? Should I plan on having three carts next year, or just one, or a small cart? *Prabhupāda: As you can afford. Minimum one cart. Otherwise, three carts. In India the Ratha*-yātrā festival is going on, according to rough estimate, for the last two thousand years, and the crowd never diminishes. One secretary of Parliament or something like that . . . *Hari-śauri: Śrī R. Subramanian, M.A., Deputy Director Research, Lok Sabha Secretariat, National Parliament, New Delhi. Should I read it? "A strange feature of the modern world is that in spite of vast advances in science and technology and the establishment of a good number of institutions for human welfare, mankind has not found true peace and happiness. Knowledge of material sciences and arts has increased tremendously in recent times, and millions of volumes on each fill the libraries the world over. People and leaders in every country are generally well versed in these arts and sciences, but despite their efforts, human society everywhere continues to be in turmoil and distress. The reason is not far to see. It is that they have not learned the science of God, the most fundamental of every other art and science, and fail to apply it to the facts of life. The need of the hour is, therefore, to do it if mankind is not only to survive but flower into a glorious existence. To teach this science of God to people everywhere and to aid them in their progress and development towards the real goal of life, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the most eminently fitted. In fact, this great ancient work of Vyāsa will fill this need of the modern times, for it is a cultural presentation for the respiritualization of the entire human society. His Divine Grace Śrīla A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the founder-ācārya of the ISKCON movement, has taken it upon himself, in addition to his ceaseless travels and other multifarious activities in the service of the Lord, the stupendous task of translating this Sanskrit work into English in about sixty volumes for the welfare and happiness of mankind. It is really astonishing how he is able to do this single-handed, and when one comes to think of this, apart from his other great literary works, one is tempted to wonder if he is not the same Vyāsa Muni reborn today to adapt his own old work (devotees respond enthusiatically) into a universal language of this age for the spiritual upliftment of the modern man. *"So far eight volumes . . ." this should be "eighteen volumes," I think, "eighteen volumes of this most beautiful literature on God have been brought out by ISKCON, and the rest are under preparation. Needless to say that in keeping with the excellence of their other publications, the publishers have seen to it that the printing, get*-up and pictures in these volumes are also of the highest quality, as though to serve as an ornament to the divine contents of the books. This is a rare opportunity to people and leaders of every country, race and community in the world to know and understand the glorious science of God and work for their perfection. I would say that this encyclopedia of spiritual knowledge is more important and fundamental than the encyclopedia of any other branch of knowledge and should, therefore, find a rightful place not only in the public and private libraries, big and small, of educational and other institutions, as also of every household, but above all in the hearts and minds of every man and woman." That seems to be it. Prabhupāda: Now read. Pradyumna: First Canto, Chapter Five. Prabhupāda: You can keep it here. Pradyumna: Synonyms also? Read synonyms also? Prabhupāda: No, just text. Pradyumna: "Sūta Gosvāmī said: Thus the sage among the gods, Nārada . . ." Prabhupāda: Where is your son? Devotee (2): He is at Pennsylvania, the gurukula , for now. Prabhupāda: Your wife? Devotee (2): She is here. She wanted to see you. Prabhupāda: Yes? Devotee (2): She can come in? She can come in for a minute; she has the baby with her. Prabhupāda: All right, let her in. Devotee (2): This is made with wheat from the farm. Pradyumna: He's on the Pennsylvania farm, with Paramānanda. Prabhupāda: Paramānanda is there? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: They are doing well? Devotee (2): Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hear, now. Pradyumna: "Thus the sage among the gods, Nārada, comfortably seated and apparently smiling, addressed the ṛṣi amongst the brāhmaṇas , Vedavyāsa." Purport: "Nārada was smiling because he well knew the great sage Vedavyāsa and the cause of his disappointment. As he will explain gradually, Vyāsadeva's disappointment was due to insufficiency in presenting the science of devotional service. Nārada knew the defect, and it was confirmed by the position of Vyāsa." Text number two. *Translation. "Addressing Vyāsadeva, the son of Parāśara , Nārada inquired: Are you satisfied by identifying with the body or the mind as the objects of self*-realization?" *Purport: "This was a hint by Nārada to Vyāsadeva regarding the cause of his despondency. Vyāsadeva, as the descendant of Parāśara, a greatly powerful sage, had the privilege of having a great parentage, which should not have given Vyāsadeva cause for despondency. Being a great son of a great father, he should not have identified the self with the body or the mind. Ordinary men with a poor fund of knowledge can identify the body as self or the mind as self, but Vyāsadeva should not have done so. One cannot be cheerful by nature unless one is factually seated in self*-realization, which is transcendental to the material body and mind." "Your inquiries were full and your studies were also well fulfilled, and there is no doubt that you have prepared a great and wonderful work, the *Mahābhārata* , which is full of all kinds of Vedic sequences elaborately explained." Purport: "The despondency of Vyāsadeva was certainly not due to his lack of sufficient knowledge, because as a student he had fully inquired about the Vedic literatures, as a result of which the *Mahābhārata* is compiled with full explanation of the *Vedas* ." "You have fully delineated the subject of impersonal Brahman, as well as the knowledge derived therefrom. In spite of all this, why should you be despondent, thinking that you are undone, my dear prabhu ?" *Purport: "The Vedānta*-sūtra or Brahma-sūtra compiled by Śrī Vyāsadeva is the full deliberation of the impersonal absolute feature, and it is accepted as the most exalted philosophical exposition in the world. It covers the subject of eternity, and the methods are scholarly. So there cannot be any doubt about the transcendental scholarship of Vyāsadeva. So why should he lament?" *"Śrī Vyāsadeva said: All you have said about me is perfectly correct. Despite all this, I am not pacified. I therefore question you about the root cause of my dissatisfaction, for you are a man of unlimited knowledge due to your being the offspring of one, Brahmā, who is self*-born, without mundane mother and father." Purport. "In the material world everyone is engrossed with the idea of identifying the body or mind with the self. As such, all knowledge disseminated in the material world is related either with the body or with the mind, and that is the root cause of all despondencies. This is not always detected, even though one may be the greatest erudite scholar in materialistic knowledge. It is good, therefore, to approach a personality like Nārada to solve the root cause of all despondencies. Why Nārada should be approached is explained below." "My lord! Everything that is mysterious is known to you because you worship the creator and destroyer of the material world and the maintainer of the spiritual world, the original Personality of Godhead, who is transcendental to the three modes of material nature." *Purport: "A person who is cent percent engaged in the service of the Lord is the emblem of all knowledge. Such a devotee of the Lord in full perfection of devotional service is also perfect by the qualification of the Personality of Godhead. As such, the eightfold perfections of mystic power, aṣṭa*-siddhi , constitute very little of his godly opulence. A devotee like Nārada can act wonderfully by his spiritual perfection, which every individual is trying to attain. Śrīla Nārada is a cent percent perfect living being, although not equal to the Personality of Godhead." *"Like the sun, Your Goodness can travel everywhere in the three worlds, and like the air you can penetrate the internal region of everyone. As such, you are as good as the all*-pervasive Supersoul. Please, therefore, find out the deficiency in me, despite my being absorbed in transcendence under disciplinary regulations and vows." Purport: "Transcendental realization, pious activities, worshiping the Deities, charity, mercifulness, nonviolence and studying the scriptures under strict disciplinary regulations are always helpful." Text 8. "Śrī Nārada said: You have not actually broadcast the sublime and spotless glories of the Personality of Godhead. That philosophy which does not satisfy the transcendental senses of the Lord is considered worthless." *Purport: "The eternal relation of an individual soul with the Supreme Soul Personality of Godhead is constitutionally one of being the eternal servitor of the eternal master. The Lord has expanded Himself as living beings in order to accept loving service from them, and this alone can satisfy both the Lord and the living beings. A scholar like Vyāsadeva has completed many expansions of the Vedic literatures, ending with the Vedānta philosophy, but none of them have been written directly glorifying the Personality of Godhead. Dry philosophical speculations even on the transcendental subject of the Absolute have very little attraction without directly dealing with the glorification of the Lord. The Personality of Godhead is the last word in transcendental realization. The Absolute realized as impersonal Brahman or localized Supersoul, Paramātmā, is less productive of transcendental bliss than the supreme personal realization of His glories. The compiler of the Vedānta*-darśana is Vyāsadeva himself. Yet he is troubled, although he is the author. So what sort of transcendental bliss can be derived by the readers and listeners of Vedānta , which is not explained directly by Vyāsadeva the author? Herein arises the necessity of explaining Vedānta-sūtra in the form of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by the self-same author." If it hasn't been ex . . . if he has not said it, so how can they know it from Vedānta-sūtra? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pradyumna: If he has not said it, so how can they know it? "Although, great sage, you have very broadly described the four principles, beginning with religious performances, you have not described the glories of the Supreme Personality, Vāsudeva." Purport: "The prompt diagnosis of Śrī Nārada is at once declared. The root cause of the despondency of Vyāsadeva was his deliberate avoidance of glorifying the Lord in his various editions of the *Purāṇas* . He has certainly, as a matter of course, given descriptions of the glories of the Lord (Śrī Kṛṣṇa), but not as many as given to religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and salvation. These four items are by far inferior to engagement in the devotional service of the Lord. Śrī Vyāsadeva, as the authorized scholar, knew very well this difference. And still, instead of giving more importance to the better type of engagement, namely . . ." Prabhupāda: Why not go there? You can go there. Hari-śauri: In the big room? Yes. It's better. It's too crowded here. Prabhupāda: Let us go there. (break) Devotee (1): . . . trying to retire here in one year when he's through with his duties as a director of a mental hospital. Prabhupāda: Which community? Devotee (1): He plans to come here to retire in one year. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes, everyone should retire and join us. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: At least those who are above fifty years old. That is Vedic civilization. Pañcasordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet . One who is over fifty years of age, vanaṁ vrajet . So vanaṁ vrajet means completely retired from family responsibilities and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is compulsory according to Vedic civilization. Hmm. *Pradyumna: "These four items are by far inferior to engagement in the devotional service of the Lord. Śrī Vyāsadeva, as the authorized scholar, knew very well this difference, and still, instead of giving more importance to the better type of engagement, namely the devotional service of the Lord, he had more or less improperly used his valuable time, and thus he was despondent. From this it is clearly indicated that no one can be pleased substantially without being engaged in the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad*-gītā this fact is clearly mentioned. After liberation, which is the last item in the line of performing religiosity, etcetera, one is engaged in pure devotional service. This is called the stage of self-realization, or brahma-bhūta stage. After attainment of this brahma-bhūta stage one is satisfied, but satisfaction is the beginning of transcendental bliss. One should progress by attaining neutrality and equality in the relative world. In passing this stage of equanimity, one is fixed up in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. This is the instruction of the Personality of Godhead in the Bhagavad-gītā . The conclusion is that in order to maintain the status quo of the brahma-bhūta stage, as also to increase the degree of transcendental realization, it is recommended by Nārada to Vyāsadeva that he, Vyāsadeva, should now eagerly and repeatedly describe the path of devotional service. This would cure him from gross despondency." "Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows." Prabhupāda: Just like the modern newspaper. Huge bundle of newspaper every morning, huh? So it is, as it is said here, the place of enjoyment for the crows. Hmm? What is that? Pradyumna: Vāyasaṁ tīrtham . *Prabhupāda: Vāyasaṁ . Vāyasaṁ means crows. The crows, they take pleasure in a place where all rubbish and refuses are thrown. They take pleasure. So what is this newspaper? All rubbish things, they are collected together. Nobody likes it to read. They just glance over for a few minutes, and then it is thrown away, rubbish. And even it is thrown there, nobody touches it. So they are spending huge, so many newspapers. Each newspaper several editions in a day, huge establishment, but there is no substance of life. That is being described. Na yad vacaś citra*-padaṁ harer yaśo . Read it. Pradyumna: *"Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows. Since the all*-perfect persons are inhabitants of the transcendental abode, they do not derive any pleasure there." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Pradyumna: "Crows and swans are not birds of the same feather because of their different mental attitudes. The fruitive workers or passionate men are compared to the crows, whereas the all*-perfect saintly persons are compared to the swans. Crows take pleasure in a place where garbage is thrown out, just as the passionate fruitive workers take pleasure in wine and women and places for gross sense pleasure. The swans do not take pleasure in the places where crows are assembled for conferences and meetings. They are instead seen in the atmosphere of natural scenic beauty, where there are transparent reservoirs of water nicely decorated with stems of lotus flowers in variegated colors of natural beauty. That is the difference between the two classes of birds. "Nature has influenced different species of life with different mentalities, and it is not possible to bring them up into the same rank and file. Similarly, there are different kinds of literature for different types of men of different mentality. Mostly the market literatures which attract men of the crow's categories are literatures containing refuse remnants of sensuous topics. They are generally known as mundane talks in relation with the gross body and subtle mind. They are full of subject matter described in decorative language full of mundane similies and metaphorical arrangements. Yet with all that, they do not glorify the Lord. Such poetry and prose on any subject matter is considered decoration of a dead body. Spiritually advanced men, who are compared with the swans, do not take pleasure in such dead literatures, which are sources of pleasure for men who are spiritually dead. These literatures in the modes of passion and ignorance are distributed under different labels, but they can hardly help the spiritual urge of the human being, and thus the swanlike spiritually advanced men have nothing to do with them. "Such spiritually advanced men are called also mānasa , because they always keep up the standard of transcendental voluntary service to the Lord on the spiritual plane. This completely forbids fruitive activities for gross bodily sense satisfaction or subtle speculation of the material egoistic mind. Social literary men, scientists, mundane poets, theoretical philosophers and politicians who are completely absorbed in the material advancement of sense pleasure are all dolls of the material energy. They take pleasure in a place where rejected subject matters are thrown. According to Śrīdhara Swami, this is the pleasure of the prostitute hunters. But literatures which describe the glories of the Lord are enjoyed by the paramahaṁsas who have grasped the essence of human activities." When you said that transcendentally spiritually advanced men are called mānasa , that means "with the mind," because they are always thinking of? Prabhupāda: Yes, always. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa padāravindayoḥ (SB 9.4.18). They are thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Pradyumna: "On the other hand, that literature which is full of pastimes of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etcetera, of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest." *Purport: "It is a qualification of the great thinkers to pick up the best even from the worst. It is said that the intelligent man should pick up nectar from a stock of poison, should accept gold even from a filthy place, should accept a good and qualified wife even from an obscure family, and should accept a good lesson even from a man or from a teacher who comes from the untouchables. These are some of the ethical instructions for everyone in every place without exception. But a saint is far above the level of an ordinary man, and he is always absorbed in glorifying the Supreme Lord, because by broadcasting the holy name and fame of the Supreme Lord the polluted atmosphere of the world will change, and as a result of propagating the transcendental literatures like Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , people will become sane in their transactions. *"While preparing this commentation on this particular stanza of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam we have a crisis before us. Our neighboring friend China has attacked the border of India with a militaristic spirit. We have practically no business in the political field, yet we see that previously there were both China and India, and they both lived peacefully for centuries without ill feeling. The reason is that they lived those days in an atmosphere of God consciousness, and every country over the surface of the world was God-fearing, pure-hearted and simple, and there was no question of political diplomacy. There was no cause of quarrel between the two countries of China and India over land which is not very suitable for habitation, and certainly there was no cause for fighting on this issue. But due to the age of quarrel, Kali, which we have discussed, there is always a chance of quarrel on slight provocation. This is due not to the issue in question but to the polluted atmosphere of this age. Systematically there is propaganda by a section of people to stop glorification of the name and fame of the Supreme Lord. Therefore there is great need for disseminating the message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam all over the world. It is the duty of every responsible Indian to broadcast the transcendental message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam throughout the world to do all the supermost good, as well as to bring about the desired peace in the world. Because India has failed in her duty by neglecting this responsible work, there is so much quarrel and trouble all over the world. We are confident that if the transcendental message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is received only by the leading men of the world, certainly there will be a change of heart, and naturally the people in general will follow them. The mass of people in general are tools in the hands of modern politicians and leaders of the people. If there is a change of heart of the leaders only, certainly there will be a radical change in the atmosphere of the world. We know that our honest attempt to present this great literature conveying transcendental messages for reviving the God consciousness of the people in general and respiritualizing the world atmosphere is fraught with many difficulties. Our presenting this matter in adequate language, especially a foreign language, will certainly fail, and there will be so many literary discrepancies despite our honest attempt to present it in the proper way. But we are sure that with all our faults in this connection, the seriousness of the subject matter will be taken into consideration, and the leaders of society will still accept this, due to its being an honest attempt to glorify the almighty God. When there is fire in a house, the inmates of the house go out to get help from the neighbors, who may be foreigners, and yet without knowing the language, the victims of the fire express themselves and the neighbors understand the need, even though not expressed in the same language. The same spirit of cooperation is needed to broadcast this transcendental message of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam throughout the polluted atmosphere of the world. After all, it is a technical science of spiritual values, and thus we are concerned with the techniques and not with the language. If the techniques of this great literature are understood by the people of the world, there will be success. *"When there are too many materialistic activities by the people in general all over the world, there is no wonder that a person or nation attacks another person or nation on slight provocation. That is the rule of this age of Kali, or quarrel. The atmosphere is already polluted with corruption of all description, and everyone knows it well. There are so many unwanted literatures full of materialistic ideas of sense gratification. The people in general want to read. That is a natural instinct. But because their minds are polluted, they want such literatures. Under the circumstances, transcendental literature like Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam will not only diminish the activities of the corrupt minds of the people in general, but also it will supply food for their hankering after reading some interesting literature. In the beginning they may not like it, because one suffering from jaundice is reluctant to take sugar candy, but we should know that sugar candy is the only remedy for the jaundice. Similarly, let there be systematic propaganda for popularizing reading of the Bhagavad-gītā and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which will act like sugar candy for the jaundicelike condition of sense gratification. When men have a taste for this literature, the other literatures, which are catering poison to society, will then automatically cease. We are sure therefore that everyone in the human society will welcome Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , even though it is now presented with so many faults, for it is recommended by Śrī Nārada, who has very kindly appeared in this chapter." Prabhupāda: So what other literatures say? There is not one. In our Society we do not read even newspaper, is it not? Do we? Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only in context to our preaching work. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But generally . . . we do not derive any benefit from those. People read it, especially in the Western county. If there is no newspaper it is hell. I told you this story? Yes. You can repeat that. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The preacher was preaching to the coal miners that if they were not good, they would go to hell, and in hell it was very cold. So they were thinking, "So it is very cold in the mine." Then he was saying that it is very dark in hell. "But it is very dark in the mine." Then he said, "And there are no newspapers." "Oh, how horrible! What a horrible place that must be." Prabhupāda: When they heard in the hell there is no newspaper, then came to the idea, "Oh, it is horrible." Otherwise, cold, dark, "Oh, this is our custom. We are already accustomed to these habits, we are working in the mine. So don't make any distinction between hell and our present residential quarters. But if there is no newspaper, certainly that is hell." Pradyumna: *"Knowledge of self*-realization, even though freed from all material affinity, does not look well if devoid of a conception of the infallible God. What then is the use of fruitive activities, which are naturally painful from the very beginning and transient by nature, if they are not utilized for the devotional service of the Lord?" *Purport: "As referred to above, not only ordinary literatures devoid of the transcendental glorification of the Lord are condemned, but also Vedic literatures and speculation on the subject of impersonal Brahman when they are devoid of devotional service. When speculation on the impersonal Brahman is condemned on the above ground, then what to speak of ordinary fruitive work, which is not meant to fulfill the aim of devotional service. Such speculative knowledge and fruitive work cannot lead one to the goal of perfection. Fruitive work, in which almost all people in general are engaged, is always painful, either in the beginning or at the end. It can only be fruitful when made subservient to the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad*-gītā also it is confirmed that the result of such fruitive work may be offered for the service of the Lord, otherwise it leads to material bondage. The bona fide enjoyer of the fruitive work is the Personality of Godhead. And thus when it is engaged for the sense gratification of the living entities, it becomes an acute source of trouble." "O Vyāsadeva, your vision is completely perfect. Your good fame is spotless, you are firm in vow and situated in truthfulness, and thus you can think of the pastimes of the Lord in trance for the liberation of the people in general from all material bondage." Purport: "People in general have a taste for literature by instinct. They want to hear and read from the authorities something about the unknown, but their taste is exploited by unfortunate literatures, which are full of subject matter for satisfaction of the material senses. Such literatures contain different kinds of mundane poems and philosophical speculations more or less under the influence of māyā , ending in sense gratification. These literatures, although worthless in the true sense of the term, are variously decorated to attract the attention of the less intelligent men. Thus the attracted living entities are more and more entangled in material bondage without hope of liberation for thousands and thousands of generations. "Śrī Nārada Ṛṣi, being the best among the Vaiṣṇavas, is compassionate on such unfortunate victims of worthless literatures, and thus he advises Śrī Vyāsadeva to compose transcendental literature which is not only attractive but can also actually bring liberation from all kinds of bondage. Śrīla Vyāsadeva or his representatives are qualified because they are rightly trained to see things in true perspective. Śrīla Vyāsadeva and his representatives are pure in thought due to their spiritual enlightenment; fixed in their vows, due to their devotional service; *and determined to deliver the fallen souls rotting in material activities. The fallen souls are very eager to receive novel informations every day, and the transcendentalists like Vyāsadeva or Nārada can supply such eager people in general with unlimited news from the spiritual world. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that the material world is only a part of the whole creation, and that this earth is only a fragment of the whole material world. *"There are thousands and thousands of literary men all over the world, and they have created many, many thousands of literary works for the information of the people in general for thousands and thousands of years. Unfortunately . . . (break) . . . effect of liberation from the pangs of material civilization, which is eating the vital parts of the human energy. The Bhagavad*-gītā , which is the spoken message of the Lord Himself recorded by Vyāsadeva, and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which is the transcendental narration of the activities of the same Lord Kṛṣṇa, which alone can satisfy the hankering desires of the living being for eternal peace and liberation from miseries. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is, therefore, meant for all the living beings all over the universe for total liberation from all kinds of material bondage. Such transcendental narrations of the pastimes of the Lord can only be described by liberated souls like Vyāsadeva and his bona fide representatives, who are completely merged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. Only to such devotees do the pastimes of the Lord and their transcendental nature become automatically manifest by dint of devotional service. No one else can either know or describe the acts of the Lord, even if they speculate on the subject for many, many years. The descriptions of the Bhāgavatam are so precise and accurate that whatever has been predicted in this great literature about five thousand years before is now exactly happening. Therefore the vision of the author comprehends past, present and future. Such liberated persons like Vyāsadeva are not only perfect by the power of vision and wisdom but also in aural reception, in thinking, feeling and all other sense activities. A liberated person possesses perfect senses, and with perfect senses only can one serve the sense proprietor, Hṛṣīkeśa, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is therefore the perfect description of the all-perfect Personality of Godhead by the all-perfect personality, Śrī Vyāsadeva, the compiler of the Vedas ." Hari-śauri: Bring that chair forward. Prabhupāda: No, that's . . . (indistinct) Pradyumna: "Whatever you desire to describe which is separate in vision from the Lord simply reacts with different forms, names and results to agitate the mind, as the wind agitates a boat which has no resting place." *Purport: "Śrī Vyāsadeva is the editor of all descriptions of the Vedic literatures, and thus he has described transcendental realization in different ways, namely by fruitive activities, speculative knowledge, mystic power and devotional service. Besides that, in his various Purāṇas he has recommended the worship of so many demigods in different forms and names. The result is that people in general are puzzled how to fix up their minds in the service of the Lord. They are always disturbed to find out the real path of self*-realization. Śrīla Nāradadeva is stressing this particular defect in the Vedic literatures compiled by Vyāsadeva, and thus he is trying to emphasize describing everything in relation with the Supreme Lord and no one else. In fact there is nothing existent except the Lord. The Lord is manifested in different expansions. He is the root of the complete tree. He is the stomach of the complete body. As such, pouring water on the root is the right process to water the tree, as much as feeding the stomach supplies energy to all parts of the body. *"Śrīla Vyāsadeva should not have compiled any Purāṇas other than the Bhāgavata Purāṇa , because a slight deviation from that may create havoc for self*-realization. If a slight deviation can create such havoc, then what to speak of deliberate expansion of the separatist idea from the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead? The most defective part of worshiping demigods is that it creates a definite conception of pantheism, ending disastrously in many religious sects detrimental to the progress of the principles of the Bhāgavatam , which alone can give the accurate direction for self-realization in eternal relation with the Personality of Godhead by devotional service in transcendental love. The example of the boat disturbed by whirling wind is suitable in this respect. The diverted mind of the pantheist can never reach to the perfection of self-realization, due to the disturbed condition of the selections of object." "The people in general are naturally inclined to enjoy, and you have encouraged them in that way in the name of religion. This is verily condemned and is quite unreasonable. Because they are guided under your instructions, they will accept such activities in the name of religion and will hardly care for prohibitions." *Purport: "Śrīla Vyāsadeva's compilation of various Vedic literatures on the basis of regulated performances of fruitive activities as depicted in the Mahābhārata and other literature is condemned herewith by Śrīla Nārada. The human beings, by long material association life after life, have a natural inclination by practice to endeavor to lord it over material energy. They have no sense of the responsibility of human life. This human form of life is a chance to get out of the clutches of illusory matter. The Vedas are meant for going back to Godhead, going back home. To revolve in the cycle of transmigration in a series of lives numbering 8,400,000 is an imprisoned life for the condemned conditioned souls. The human form of life is a chance to get out of this imprisoned life, and as such the only occupation of the human being is to reestablish his lost relationship with God. Under the circumstances, one should never be encouraged in making a plan for sense enjoyment in the name of religious functions. Such diversion of the human energy results in a misguided civilization. Śrīla Vyāsadeva is the authority in Vedic explanations and the Mahābhārata , etcetera, and his encouragement in sense enjoyment in some form or other is a great barrier for spiritual advancement, because the people in general will not agree to renounce material activities, which hold them in material bondage. At a certain stage of human civilization such material activities in the name of religion, as sacrificing animals in the name of yajña , were too much rampant. The Lord incarnated Himself as Buddha and decried the authority of the Vedas to stop animal sacrifice in the name of religion. This was foreseen by Nārada, and therefore he condemned such literatures. The flesh*-eaters still continue to perform animal sacrifice before some demigod or goddess in the name of religion, because in some of the Vedic literatures such regulated sacrifice is recommended. They are so recommended to discourage flesh eating, but gradually the purpose of such religious activities is forgotten and the slaughterhouse becomes prominent. This is because foolish materialistic men do not care to listen to others who are actually in a position to explain the Vedic rites. *"In the Vedas it is distinctly said that the perfection of life is never to be attained either by voluminous work or by accumulation of wealth or even by increasing the number of population, but it is so attained only by renunciation. The materialistic men do not care to listen to such injunctions. According to them, the so*-called renounced order of life is meant for those who are unable to earn their livelihood because of some corporeal defects or for persons who have failed to achieve prosperity in family life. In histories like the Mahābhārata , of course, there are topics on transcendental subjects along with material topics. The Bhagavad-gītā is there in the Mahābhārata . The whole idea of the Mahābhārata is culminated in the ultimate instructions of the Bhagavad-gītā , that one should relinquish all other engagements and should engage oneself solely and fully in surrendering unto the lotus feet of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. But men with materialistic tendencies are more attracted to politics, economics and philanthropic activities mentioned in the Mahābhārata than to the principal topic, namely the Bhagavad-gītā . This compromising spirit of Vyāsadeva is directly condemned by Nārada, who advises him to directly proclaim that the prime necessity of human life is to realize one's eternal relation with the Lord and thus surrender unto Him without delay. A patient suffering from a particular type of malady is almost always inclined to accept eatables which are forbidden for him. The expert physician does not make any compromise with the patient by allowing him to take partially what he should not take at all. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said that a man attached to fruitive work should not be discouraged from his occupation, for gradually he may be elevated to the position of self-realization. This is sometimes applicable for those who are only dry empiric philosophers without spiritual realization, but those who are in the devotional line need not be always so advised." "The Supreme Lord is unlimited. Only a very expert personality retired from the activities of material happiness deserves to understand this knowledge of spiritual values. Therefore those who are not so well situated due to material attachment should be shown the ways of transcendental realization by Your Goodness through descriptions of the transcendental activities of the Supreme Lord." *Purport: "Theological science is a difficult subject, especially when it deals with the transcendental nature of God. It is not a subject matter to be understood by persons who are too much attached to material activities. Only the very expert, who have almost retired from materialistic activities, by culture of spiritual knowledge can be admitted to the study of this great science. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is clearly stated that out of many hundreds and thousands of men, only one person deserves to enter into transcendental realization, and out of many thousands of such transcendentally realized persons, only a few can understand the theological science specifically dealing with God as a person. Śrī Vyāsadeva is therefore advised by Nārada to describe the science of God directly by relating His transcendental activities. Vyāsadeva is himself a personality expert in this science, and he is unattached to material enjoyment; therefore he is the right person to describe it. And Sukadeva Gosvāmī, the son of Vyāsadeva, is the right person to receive it. *" Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, and therefore it can react on the layman as medicinal doses. Because it contains the transcendental activities of the Lord, there is no difference between the Lord and the literature. The literature is the factual literary incarnation of the Lord so the laymen can hear the narration of the activities of the Lord. Thereby they are able to associate with the Lord and thus gradually become purified from material diseases. The expert devotees also can discover novel ways and means to convert the nondevotee in terms of particular time and circumstance. Devotional service is dynamic activities, and the expert devotees can find out competent means to inject it into the dull brains of the materialistic population. Such transcendental activities of the devotees for the service of the Lord can bring a new order of life to the foolish society of materialistic men. Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His subsequent followers exhibited expert dexterity in this connection. By following the same method one can bring the materialistic men of this age of quarrel into order for peaceful life and transcendental realization." Prabhupāda: What is the time now? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: About 7:20, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Should we take your leave? Prabhupāda: Any question regarding this? *Pradyumna: Says " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, therefore it can react on the layman as medicinal doses"? Prabhupāda: If they simply hear, it will act as medicine. *Devotee (1): Vyāsadeva is called tri*-kala-jñā —he sees past, present and future. How is it that he sees the future, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (indistinct—microphone rattling) Just like common business. Bring that black Bhāgavata . Five thousand years before *Bhāgavatam* was written, and so many foretelling are there, and they are arguing (microphone rattling—indistinct). If you like, you can keep it open. (referring to door) Devotee (2): I was looking just now to see if my wife had . . . (indistinct) . . . can come in . . . (indistinct) . . . thought to open the door. Prabhupāda: Twelfth Canto, Third Chapter. *Pradyumna: Tataś cānu*-dinaṁ dharmaḥ ? Prabhupāda: Hmm, before that. Pradyumna: That is first chapter. *Prabhupāda: Read it, tataś cānu*-dinam , it is third chapter. Pradyumna: This is second. Prabhupāda: First chapter, by the end, what it is written? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: (microphone rattling—indistinct) What is the last verse you read? Pradyumna: Yes, this is the last verse. It says everyone is rājabhiś ca kṣayaṁ yāsyanti pīḍitāḥ . Prabhupāda: What is the note? *Pradyumna: (Śrīdhara Svāmī's commentary) kiṁ ca , tan nāthas te nātha yeṣaṁ te jana*-pada deśa-vartino manuṣyas tac-chīlācārādinas teṣam iva śrīlamācāro . . . *Prabhupāda: The purport is that in the Kali*-yuga, the government men, they will be all rogues and thieves. So the citizens also follow them. Tan-natha , śīlācārya . Śīlācārya is their behavior. If the politicians, secretaries and big, big officers going to the brothels and drinking wine and enjoying, then what others will not? They will . . . (indistinct) . . . that's all. Go on, second chapter. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Note? *Pradyumna: Says that, er, kali*-dharmān prapañcayati-tataś cetyādinā . Prabhupāda: That's all? Pradyumna: Yes. He doesn't say. *Prabhupāda: How things will deteriorate, that is explained here. Tataś cānu*-dinam ? Pradyumna: Dharmaḥ satyaṁ śaucam . . . *Prabhupāda: With the progress of the Kali*-yuga . . . the Kali-yuga has begun from the . . . after the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra. So five thousand years ago. The whole duration of life of Kali-yuga is thirty-two hundred thousands of years. Thirty-two hundred thousands of years, out of which we have passed only five thousand years. Still, the balance is twenty-seven hundred thousands of years. So with the progress of this age, these things will happen. What is that? Tataś cānu-dinam ? Pradyumna: Dharmaḥ satyam . Prabhupāda: Dharmaḥ . People will gradually decrease in their sense of religiosity, dharmaḥ . Then? Pradyumna: Satyam . *Prabhupāda: They will be untruthful, hardly, because there is no training of brahminical culture how to become truthful. People think that "What is the wrong there, I shall speak something untruth?" So that means the value of truthfulness will decrease. And the importance of religion will decrease. This is the symptoms of Kali*-yuga. Then? Pradyumna: Śaucam . Prabhupāda: Śaucam , cleanliness. People will become unclean more and more. Then? Pradyumna: Kṣamā . Prabhupāda: Kṣamā . Formerly saintly persons and leaders, they used to excuse. Now that, the sense of excusing, "All right, this man has done something, excuse him," that will decrease. The sense of religiosity, truthfulness, and . . .? Pradyumna: Truthfulness, cleanliness, śaucam . Prabhupāda: Cleanliness. Pradyumna: Kṣamā . Prabhupāda: And kṣamā , kṣamā means pardon. Then? Pradyumna: Dayā . Prabhupāda: Dayā , mercifulness. People will have no mercy. It has already begun. If somebody is attacked, being killed, nobody takes care; he goes in his own way. There is no mercy. There is no mercy to the animals. Now there is no mercy even to one's child; *one's own child, they are killing. Just see how degraded, dayā . What to speak of no dayā , no mercy for the animals—all right, you are not so advanced—but the mother's mercy to the child will be diminished. This is foretelling. This is called tri*-kala-jñā . Who expected that mother will kill the child? But Vyāsadeva, five thousand years ago, said, "Yes, mercy will be reduced." Then? Pradyumna: Āyur . *Prabhupāda: Āyur , duration of life. The maximum duration of life in Kali*-yuga is hundred years, but who is living hundred years? It is being reduced, and it will be so reduced that if a man would live twenty years, he is an old man. It will come to that stage. Now it is reducing, from hundred years to ninety years to eighty years. *Hari-śauri: The average is seventy*-three years now. Prabhupāda: Seventy, then sixty then fifty. In this way, if a man lives from twenty to thirty years he will be considered grand old man. (laughter) These are the symptoms, āyur . Then? Pradyumna: Balam . Prabhupāda: And bodily strength. Bodily strength . . . in India we, in our childhood, I have seen when British rule was there, all the Europeans were coming, very strong and stout and strong. Now such Europeans are not coming. Even bodily strength reduced. Then? Pradyumna: Smṛtiḥ . *Prabhupāda: And memory. It will reduce. Just see, compare everything—religiosity and the power of mercifulness, pardoning, truthfulness, cleanliness, bodily strength, duration of life—they're all reduced. Now who can say it is not reduced? Can you say? This is called tri*-kala-jñā . Tatas , what is that? Cānu-dinaṁ rājan ? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Kālena , in due course of time, all these items—there are eight items—it will be reducing, reducing, reducing. Reducing, reducing so much. So what is that? Devotee (3): They say that men are living longer now compared to five hundred or six hundred years ago. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (3): They say that men are living longer now. The scientists, they say that there's less disease. They say that a hundred years ago people had more disease than . . . now they live longer. *Prabhupāda: That these rascals say. We do not say. We have seen in our childhood that my grandmother, she died at the age of ninety*-six years. There was no disease. The scientists say that there was disease, now there is no disease? Devotee (3): They say there is less disease now. They say that . . . Prabhupāda: Less disease—everyone suffering from cancer. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They are building more hospitals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Not less. Prabhupāda: Just see. They're increasing number of hospitals, and there is no disease? Devotee (3): They say that a child has more of a chance of living now than . . . Prabhupāda: "They say," but what is the practical? They say all, as I repeatedly, pagale ki na bole chakole ki na khaya . A madman, what does he not say, and a goat, what does he not eat? So they are all madmen. (laughter) They can say all everything. Devotee (1): They are experimenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with genes now. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (1): You say that we are losing the qualities of memory, strength, but they are experimenting where they can isolate genes of persons who have those qualities and then put on . . . Prabhupāda: But we have to see actually what is happening. Devotee (4): They are also transplanting livers and hearts, increasing the duration of life. Prabhupāda: So whatever they may do, things will happen like this. This is a fact. Can they increase the duration of life? People, can they make any scientific discovery that no man will die less than hundred years? Is there any such discovery? Hari-śauri: The only discoveries they have made so far are how to kill people quicker. Prabhupāda: Yes. Is there any discovery that here is a pill, you go on taking it, you'll not die before hundred years? Is there any discovery? Then what is the use of talking nonsense? They are reducing their life, that's a fact. And so far as mercy is concerned, we see how much it is reduced. The mother is killing child. Where is mercy now? So they may say anything like madman, but we see practically what is happening. Then? Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: So vittam , money. Money is the criterion, not family. Formerly, there was family, respectable family, aristocratic family, brāhmaṇa family, kṣatriya family. All these things are gone now. If you accumulate some money some way or other, then you are respectable, never mind what you are. That is Kali*-yuga symptom: their position in society, if you want to be respectable man, you somehow or other gather money. Never mind how we have gathered, what is the method. It doesn't matter. Get some money and you become respectable. Vittam eva hi . *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . Prabhupāda: Ah, janmācāra . First of all, janma , the family, heredity, was taken into consideration, but that is now forgotten. Get money. Just like in England that the British Empire policy was that you bring money from outside and deposit in the government treasury and you become lord. Is it not? Bring money, some way or other. So that was going on, exploiting. They used to go to the foreign countries and somehow or other accumulate money. Just like Lord Clive. He was a street boy, but he made some policy. In this way, diplomacy, he entered into Bengal and got some money, and Lord Clive, he became Lord Clive. So money is the criterion. Some way or other, bring money, that's all. That's a fact. These are the symptoms. Just try to understand. *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . Prabhupāda: If you have money, then you are aristocratic; then whatever you do, it is all right. Janmācāra , then? Pradyumna: Guṇa . Prabhupāda: Guṇa . You are most qualified man. You may be a drunkard, you may be a prostitute hunter, whatever you may be, but because you have money you are a qualified man. Then? *Pradyumna: Janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . Prabhupāda: Go on. *Pradyumna: Dharma*-nyāya-vyavasthāyāṁ kāraṇaṁ balam eva hi . *Prabhupāda: Dharma*-nyāya . Now, if you want justice, you can get it according to your desire, justice, if you have got money. That is going on, that if you bribe to the court's men and even to the judge or magistrate, you get justice accordingly. That is going on. Dharma ācāra . Then? Pradyumna: Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dāmpatye ? Pradyumna: Dāmpatye abhirucir , hetur . . . *Prabhupāda: Abhirucir , yes. Now formerly marriage was a religious ceremony. Marriage was, this boy and this girl should be married, it is a religious function where the father and mother will see their horoscope and see if they are compatible, they will agree, they will live peacefully. So many things are there. Still, in India such things are calculated by the parents of the boy and the girl. Now, in this Kali*-yuga, you see, dāmpatye abhirucir . Abhirucir means the boy and the girl, if he likes, if he says, that's all. No other calculation. And then, after three days after marriage, they will divorce. (laughter) Because abhirucir , abhirucir : "I like, I don't like," that's all. Now I like, and after three days don't like, finished, business. In Chicago I saw a newspaper. One girl, within three weeks she has divorced two husbands. (laughter) Yes, I saw it in the newspaper. So this . . . formerly the father, mother used to see that this boy and girl is going to be married. So by horoscope, by other circumstances, by family, cultural . . . (indistinct) . . . by education, so many things, whether they will live peacefully. That was the understanding. Husband-wife means, a man requires a woman, a woman requires a man. They should be combined in such a way that they can live peacefully. If there is no disturbance of the mind, then they can make further progress in spiritual life. Therefore marriage is also necessary, and that must be properly done. This was the . . . now there is no such consideration. The boys and girls are free, and if one likes the other . . . dāmpatye . . . what is that? Pradyumna: Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Ruci . Ruci means liking. Then? Pradyumna: I think it is māyaiva vyāvahārike . *Prabhupāda: Ah, māyaiva vyāvahārike . In ordinary dealings there is cheating. This is Kali*-yuga. Ordinarily, even when gentleman-gentleman, so-called gentlemen talking, he's trying to cheat him, he's trying to cheat him. By talking. And ordinarily. Māyaiva vyāvahārike . To talk with gentleman-gentleman, it is ordinary thing, but still there will be so many untruthfulness. Māyaiva vyāvahārike . Then? Pradyumna: Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir vipratve sūtram eva hi . Prabhupāda: Hmm. And woman is nice, man is nice, this should be considered by sex power. Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir . Then? Pradyumna: Vipratve sūtram eva hi . Prabhupāda: Vipratve sūtram eva hi . And there is a brāhmaṇa —what is the proof that he is a brāhmaṇa ? He has got a sacred thread, that's all. Or thread. It may not be sacred; *purchased from the market. So at least we try to give a sacred thread by ceremony. But anyone can purchase a thread from the market, two*-paisa worth or one-cent worth, and become a brāhmaṇa . "You are a brāhmaṇa ?" "Yes, you see my sacred thread?" (laughter) Finished. "What you are doing?" "Never mind." Don't be such brāhmaṇas , at least in our camp. You must follow the rules and regulations. Don't show that "I am now doubly initiated, sacred thread." Don't cheat in that way. Vipratve sūtram eva hi . Then? *Pradyumna: Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv . *Prabhupāda: Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv . There are āśramas—brahmacārī , sannyāsī , gṛhastha . So they have got different dresses. So Kali-yuga, simply by dress he becomes a brahmacārī , he become a gṛhastha , he becomes a sannyāsī . Simply by dress. What he is acting, nobody cares, that's all. Then? Pradyumna: Liṅgam , eva . Prabhupāda: Liṅgam means the external feature. This is the dress of a sannyāsī , this is the dress of a gṛhastha . Just like daṇḍa . Daṇḍa is the symptom that he is a sannyāsī . Then? *Pradyumna: Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv anyonyāpatti-kāraṇam . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then? *Pradyumna: Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . *Prabhupāda: Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . If you have no money, then you cannot get justice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cannot get . . .? *Prabhupāda: Justice. First of all you have to pay government so many percentage of money. Suppose somebody owes to you some money and he's not giving you. So if you want to go to the court, first of all you have to spend so much money. And if you have no money, then you cannot get your justice, money back. You have to pay this lawyer's fee, the stand duty, and so on, so on. But if you say, "I have no money," then forget justice. That's all. Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . Pradyumna: Pāṇḍitye cāpalaṁ vacaḥ . Prabhupāda: Paṇḍita: if you can speak very vehemently any subject matter, people may or may not understand, and they will certify you, "Oh, this man is very learned." "What you have learned from him?" "Oh, I could not understand, but he spoke very nicely. He spoke very nicely." What is that nicely? That cāpala . (Prabhupāda speaks some gibberish) You go on speaking like that, (devotees laugh) and people will appreciate, "Oh, he's a big speaker!" What have you learned from him? Then? Pradyumna: Then anadhyataivasādhutve sādhutve dambha eva tu . Prabhupāda: And if you are poor man, then you are not honest. That is the criterion. "Oh, here is a . . ." When the poor man comes, you'll not give place at your place. If he wants to stay, you'll refuse: "No." Because he's poor, he's immediately accepted as dishonest. He may be honest or dishonest, but poverty is a sign for accepting a man as dishonest. Then? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hmm. Svīkāra eva codvāhe . Marriage will go on simply by agreement, not by qualification. Svīkāra eva codvāhe . Snānam eva prasādhanam . And if you take bath, then all bodily cleanliness is finished, that's all. Then? *Pradyumna: Dūre vāry*-ay . . . *Prabhupāda: Vāry*-ayanam . Pradyumna: Oh. Dūre . . . *Prabhupāda: Dūre vāry*-ayanaṁ tīrtham . Tīrtham . If you go . . . Just like there is Vṛndāvana and here is New Vrindavan. But if you spend ten thousand dollars and go to Vṛndāvana, then it is pilgrimage. And here is Vṛndāvana-candra—so that is not very important. Dūre vāry-ayanam . You have to go far, far away, (laughter) then it will be pilgrimage. In India, there is Ganges in Calcutta. But they go to Hardwar. Then it is pilgrimage. (laughter) The same Ganges, coming from Hardwar. Then? *Pradyumna: Dūre vāry*-ayanaṁ tīrthaṁ lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam . *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lāvaṇyam , now you know very well in the Western country. Beauty increases by having long hair. (laughter) I was just trying to recite this verse only, and now see how it is current. Who expected that this foretelling is there in the Bhāgavatam ? To increase beauty, have long hair. Is it not? Now just see. How five thousand years this thing was foretold? That is the proof. There was no hippie movement then. (laughs) But Vyāsadeva foretold that in the Kali*-yuga, if one keeps long hair he will think himself as very beautiful. There are so many things. *So ultimately, with the advancement of Kali*-yuga you'll have no food. Food means there will be no food grains, there will be no milk, there will be no sugar—like that. No fruits. If you get fruits, there will be no pulp; it is simply seeds. These things are there. You get a mango, but a mango means simply the big seed, that's all. So how can you check it? If nature's way things are going to happen like that, what the scientists will do? If there is no rice, no wheat, will the scientists . . .? They can say replace with a pill, but they cannot produce wheat or rice or ḍāl or milk, sugar. That is not possible. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? They have fashioned a way for the spacemen that they can drink their own urine and eat their own stool. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the most scientific improvement. (laughter) Yes. That they can do. (laughter) By scientific improvement, they can drink their own urine, very tasty. That is possible. Devotee (1): With all these disqualifications, how can the general mass of people take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only remedy. That is stated there. You'll find this verse, *It is, the Kali*-yuga, it is an ocean of faults. How . . .? Suppose all over your body there are boils. So where you will apply ointment? You just dip down. (laughter) (end) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . the pilot for 747, paying him a large sum of money. And here is airplane, everything complete with a pilot. Create by your scientific brain. Rascal, you are so proud of your scientific . . . Hari-śauri: In Māyāpur, you said that the mosquito's body is so perfect that although with one slap it's finished, still it has a syringe so strong that it immediately, upon landing on the skin, it can penetrate and extract blood. *Prabhupāda: Immediately, just see. And if you allow one second, he'll fill the whole body up by sucking the . . . just see what is that nozzle, and how quickly they can . . . there is no intelligence? The mosquito has better intelligence than any human being about his business. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said, sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām ( SB 7.6.3). That particular body, he is destined to enjoy a certain amount of sense gratification according to his body. Like that. Sarvatra labhyate daivād . God's arrangement is nice. He can get it. The mosquito is getting. He wanted to suck blood, so he has been given a teeny body, he can suck blood, very little quantity. So arrangement is there. He's satisfying his senses, daivād , by arrangement of God. So why you are endeavoring? Even it is there in the mosquito, even it is there in the tiger or any animal or man, it is already arranged. Why you are wasting time in that way? Simply sense gratification. Who will understand this philosophy? The fact is explained. That gentleman, Subramanian, is very much appreciative. Hari-śauri: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Those who are sane men, they are appreciating that here is a movement actually for the benefit . . . it is not sentimental, cheating, bluffing, economic development. Do economic development. Why you forget your real business? Tat*-prayāso na kartavyo yena āyur . . . what is that? Vyayaḥ param , simply wasting the valuable time of our life. If you want to suck blood, just become a mosquito. (laughs) Pray to God: "Give me the body of a mosquito." Quickly you will get. Yānti deva-vratā devān , bhūtejyaḥ yānti bhūtāni (BG 9.25). You'll get it. Pradyumna: Kīrtanānanda is here with the car. (microphone rattling) (outside) *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simply expand this idea. Kṛṣī*-go-rakṣya-vāṇījyam (BG 18.44). (end) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . the pilot for 747, paying him a large sum of money. And here is airplane, everything complete with a pilot. Create by your scientific brain. Rascal, you are so proud of your scientific . . . Hari-śauri: In Māyāpur, you said that the mosquito's body is so perfect that although with one slap it's finished, still it has a syringe so strong that it immediately, upon landing on the skin, it can penetrate and extract blood. *Prabhupāda: Immediately, just see. And if you allow one second, he'll fill the whole body up by sucking the . . . just see what is that nozzle, and how quickly they can . . . there is no intelligence? The mosquito has better intelligence than any human being about his business. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said, sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām ( SB 7.6.3). That particular body, he is destined to enjoy a certain amount of sense gratification according to his body. Like that. Sarvatra labhyate daivād . God's arrangement is nice. He can get it. The mosquito is getting. He wanted to suck blood, so he has been given a teeny body, he can suck blood, very little quantity. So arrangement is there. He's satisfying his senses, daivād , by arrangement of God. So why you are endeavoring? Even it is there in the mosquito, even it is there in the tiger or any animal or man, it is already arranged. Why you are wasting time in that way? Simply sense gratification. Who will understand this philosophy? The fact is explained. That gentleman, Subramanian, is very much appreciative. Hari-śauri: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Those who are sane men, they are appreciating that here is a movement actually for the benefit . . . it is not sentimental, cheating, bluffing, economic development. Do economic development. Why you forget your real business? Tat*-prayāso na kartavyo yena āyur . . . what is that? Vyayaḥ param , simply wasting the valuable time of our life. If you want to suck blood, just become a mosquito. (laughs) Pray to God: "Give me the body of a mosquito." Quickly you will get. Yānti deva-vratā devān , bhūtejyaḥ yānti bhūtāni (BG 9.25). You'll get it. Pradyumna: Kīrtanānanda is here with the car. (microphone rattling) (outside) *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simply expand this idea. Kṛṣī*-go-rakṣya-vāṇījyam (BG 18.44). (end) (Garden Conversation) Prabhupāda: So, any question from the newcomers? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This gentleman, he owns this house, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He mentions that he met you way back in 1966, in Tompkins Square Park. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) (break) Prabhupāda: If you go somewhere, you must know first of all why you have gone there. That is the first question. If you go to a store, the first business is that you have gone to purchase some particular thing from the store. That is understood. Similarly, why one should go to a spiritual master? What is the purpose? Answer, any one of you. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One is . . . when one is confused and frustrated by this material existence, he wants to find an answer to his problems. So there are different authorities in the world offering solutions, but one has to find the actual authority. Prabhupāda: That is the purport. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsu śreya uttamam ( SB 11.3.21). One has to go to guru when one is inquisitive. Jijñāsu . Jijñāsu means we want to know so many things; that is our nature. Child also wants to know. He asks his parents, "What is this, father? What is this, mother?" That inquisitiveness is there in everyone. So when one wants to know about the Supreme, then he requires a guru , or spiritual master. It is not a fashion, that "Everyone keeps a guru; *let me also have a guru ." Not like that. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12): "In order to understand the transcendental science, one has to go to guru ." Jijñāsu śreya uttamam . After artha . . . just like generally, naturally, one goes to temple, church, four classes of men. One is needy: "O God, give us our daily bread." One thinks . . . actually, that is the fact. God gives us bread. So traditionally we are trained up. So we go to God, "Give us our daily bread." Similarly, one who wants to know what is God. Just like in our society, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they see that these boys, young boys, they have given up everything, they are after Kṛṣṇa. What is this Kṛṣṇa? That is intelligent. Why they are after this Kṛṣṇa? Then he has to go to a person, guru . In this way, there are many circumstances. But the real purpose is to know the Supreme. One who is inquisitive or anxious to know about the Supreme, then there is necessity of guru . Otherwise, what is the use of it? One who is not inquisitive to understand the Supreme, he has no business for a guru . *But everyone has necessity to understand the Supreme. That is human life. A dog cannot inquire what is God, because he is dog. But a man can do that. He has got that developed intelligence. So if a man does not inquire about the Supreme Truth, he is no better than a dog. If one does not seek after spiritual master, he's a dog. He's in the standard of dog. Because that inquiry is the particular business of human being, to inquire about the Supreme. If he does not inquire, that still he's on the platform of dog. First of all, you have understood it or not? So any human being with developed intelligence must go to a spiritual master. If he does not go, then he's still in the animal platform. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means he must. If he does not, then he is in the animal platform. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? So if one is looking for a guru , but there are many people they are proclaiming themselves guru , and they are speaking "Supreme," "God," how may one tell the actual guru ? Prabhupāda: That is, if you want to purchase something, you must know where to purchase. Otherwise, you may be cheated. You, generally, you ask your friend that "I want to purchase some diamond, so can you give me some reliable address where I can go and purchase?" Generally, people do that. So you have to do that. If you want to purchase, you must know the preliminary understanding where diamond can be purchased. And if you are not aware of it, you may be cheated. That preliminary knowledge you must have. That means best thing is, those who are dealing with diamonds, you go there. Just like if anyone is inquisitive to understand God, so best thing is those who are dealing with God only, they have no other business. Then you go there. That is the intelligent. Why should you go to a cheater? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is especially distributing knowledge about God. So why do they not come here and inquire? First thing is, unless one is inquisitive to understand God, or Absolute Truth, he has no necessity of guru . But if he is actually serious, then he must go to a person where the dealing is only God. That's all. Just like ordinarily, if anyone wants to purchase some share of company, he goes to the share market and he sees the price of different shares, and he selects. So everything requires little intelligence, then it is all right. Otherwise, you may be cheated. Whatever business you do, you must do it intelligently. But if you are foolishly doing something, you may be cheated. Why we are opening so many centers all over the world? We are giving opportunity, people, to come and understand about God. Why do they not come here? Then he can make his judgment that "Here is the genuine party." And if one accepts some cheap God, that means he has no understanding about God. He's a rascal. If I say I'm God and somebody accepts me as God, then he's a foolish man. They do not know what is meaning of God. If one wants God, he must know at least what is meant by God. Every scripture, just like in Bible it is said, "God has created this universe." So if you come to me and accept me as God, why don't you test whether I have created another universe like this? Why you accept a cheap God who hasn't done anything? Simply he's bluff, and he says that "I am God." So why do you accept as God? Hmm? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I was going to get you a fan, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for the flies. That would be nice. Hari-śauri: There's no fan here. Prabhupāda: Why should we accept a cheap God? Everything requires intelligence. If you are not intelligent, then every transaction you may be cheated. Everyone has heard "God is great." So great means there should be nobody equal to Him and nobody greater than Him. That is greatness. So test that man whether he has no competitor, another God. Nowadays there are so many Gods. So God is great, why there is another competitor? This is intelligence. Devotee (1): Prabhupāda? Can one make progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, whatever we are talking you should understand, then bring another question. Don't puzzle. One question decide. Don't make it whimsical dictionary. Then it is not good. First of all decide one question clearly. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: So the bona fide guru does not claim to be God, but he gives knowledge of God, and he only deals with God. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is bona fide guru . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A very common occurrence in the Western countries, they say that anyone can be guru . In fact, one Westerner who went to India and came back—he's very popular in the United States today—he says that everyone is guru and everyone is God. Prabhupāda: And people accept that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. People are accepting. Prabhupāda: Now you discuss this point. Discuss this point. *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Prabhupāda: No, first of all, you discuss this point, everyone is God and everyone is guru . Devotee (2): Only if one hears from the right authority can one be guru. Has to be . . . spiritual knowledge is descending. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The premise of the *Vedas* is that there's a creator of everything. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a creator of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Origin of everything. The premise of these so*-called spiritual masters . . . Prabhupāda: No, this is a common sense. If everyone is God, then what is the necessity of finding out a guru ? Guru means who explains about God. Everyone is God, then what is the use of explanation? There is no need of guru . Devotee (2): How can God be controlled by His own energy, illusory energy? Prabhupāda: So many things. Foolish men can accept that "Everyone is God, everyone is guru ." That is foolish man's proposition and accepted by fools. Devotee (2): It is explained in Back to Godhead magazine that a person who teaches how to serve Kṛṣṇa, how to serve God, is guru . Someone tells you that he is guru . . . (indistinct) . . . a dog. Back to Godhead magazine explains. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So to accept a spiritual master must mean that one is in ignorance and one is enlightened. Prabhupāda: For ignorance there is no need of guru . An ignorance cannot inquire about God. Intelligent man can inquire about God. Guest: We have to pick up our children . . . (indistinct) . . . thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Pick up children from a school? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From somewhere. Prabhupāda: Do you know him? Devotee (2): They're from Wheeling. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Once you said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, "If you are God, what will you do when I kick on your face?" Because if God is creating the sun, such a great planet in the sky, thousands of tons of energy, so if they are the source of the sun, but "What can they do if I kick in their face? Nothing. So how is that God?" Kṛṣṇa, when . . . someone was . . . Paundraka, he was saying he was God. He said, "All right, hold My cakra." And He took off his head. So to these false Gods we can say, "What will you do if we kick you in the face? You cannot save yourself." Prabhupāda: That is the proper treatment. (laughter) *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is one common philosophy also held by a lot of religious groups that God can be understood directly from within, and that no guru or spiritual master is necessary. That if I desire to approach God, and if He's all*-powerful, He can instruct me from within. They feel like this. Therefore they dispute our claim that we understand God in a different way, that you need a genuine spiritual master. And yet when we approach them, one man will say he has God within his heart and he understands God in this way, and another man is receiving instruction from God from within the heart, and yet he's saying another thing. Prabhupāda: So? Devotee (2): Yet they continue to claim like that, so . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, when God teaches Arjuna . . . his realization from within should be the same as Kṛṣṇa is teaching to Arjuna. It should be confirmed by śāstra. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He was saying that these people say, "God is instructing me from within," but they all have different philosophies. Prabhupāda: But he's a rascal, and who accepts him, he's a rascal. How do you think that God is speaking to him? How do you accept it? How do you accept that God is speaking to him? Devotee (2): Well, I don't accept it. Prabhupāda: But you are advocating. Why do you accept this? Devotee (2): He would say that he has turned his . . . Prabhupāda: He would say, but you must know that he's talking foolish. How God can talk with him? What is the condition? Therefore you have to read books. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). *Prabhupāda: No. God talks with whom? That is said. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānaṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10). Those who have already become devotee of God and engaged in His service, He talks with him. Not he's a third-class fool. He doesn't talk with him. It is clearly stated, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām , one who is twenty-four-hours engaged in the service of the Lord, with love and faith, God talks with him. That is clearly stated. How do you understand that God is talking with him, a rascal fool, who has no business with God? God talks with devotee, very sincere devotee who is already engaged in God's service. He talks with him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But then he might say, "But I love God." *Prabhupāda: He might say, that is another thing. The standard is this. He may say—he's a rascal, he can say so many nonsense things. That is not the standard. He says that "God is talking with me." So I have to see whether he's a candidate with whom God can talk. The formula is teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10): "One who is twenty-four-hours engaged in My service with love and faith," God talks with him. So first of all see whether he's twenty-four-hours engaged in God's service with love and faith. Then you can understand, "Yes, God is talking with him." But he has no preliminary qualification, if he says, "I can talk with God," he's a nonsense. That means because you are a nonsense, you are talking about him that God talks with him. You do not know with whom God talks. So you are nonsense also. You accept him, "Yes, he may be talking with God." How he can talk? That means you are also nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks. Why do you accept such proposition? If some storekeeper says that "I have passed M.A., L.L.D.," and I have to accept that? You must know with whom God talks. That means you are nonsense. You are accepting nonsensically. And a person who is constantly engaged in God's service, unless he's trained up by a spiritual master, how can he be engaged? So without spiritual master, one cannot be engaged in devotional service; and without devotional service, nobody's eligible to talk with God. So that nonsense talking, that without spiritual master God talking, and he has become perfect, this is all nonsense. One who believes, he is also nonsense. He does not know God. To raise such question means nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks; therefore you have brought this question. Otherwise, you would have kicked immediately. It is impossible. What do you think? Devotee (2): I understand what you are saying. Prabhupāda: Then why do you raise this question? Devotee (2): It's a matter of argument also. Prabhupāda: Argument? Why do you bring such nonsense argument, waste time? Don't waste time. You are ignorant, you are accepting. Don't remain ignorant. It is common sense. Is it so easy that one can talk with God? If some common man says, "Just now I went to Mr. Ford and talked with him. I'm coming back from him," so any gentleman will believe that? So these are our insufficiency, that we believe such thing. We are not properly trained up. Simply waste time. That's not good. He may talk nonsense; why I shall accept nonsense? The same example: If somebody comes, "Now I'm just coming from talking with Mr. Ford, the President," shall I have to believe? If he's a common man, how he can talk with President Ford? If I believe, then I am also nonsense. Where is that? Hari-śauri: We don't have a fan in here . . . I have go somewhere else. I have to bring a fan from somewhere else. *Prabhupāda: No, no, bring, you can bring some soft cloth. Why this is? You bring some soft cloth. So don't indulge such nonsense question. You must personally understand. That is knowledge. If you are reading Bhagavad*-gītā , how you can accept nonsense, he says that "I can talk with Kṛṣṇa without spiritual master"? It is absurd proposition. So why you should accept such absurd proposition unless you are also another absurd? If you knew that it is not possible, you, "You rascal." Don't talk with him. Don't waste time. But you also do not know with whom God talks. Clearly stated. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ (BG 10.10). Teṣām evānukampārtham (BG 10.11). Why don't you read all these proposals? With whom God talks? Hmm? Why did you not? Devotee (2): I'm familiar with those verses. *Prabhupāda: Then why did you not say that "God talks with such*-and-such person, but you are not such and such. Why you are talking nonsense? That means you are cheating. But you cannot cheat me. I know." So you must know. You must know with whom God talks. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, does this mean that we should not speak with those who ask such questions? Prabhupāda: But you must know how to answer it! Otherwise, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why there are so many books? You do not read it; you do not know how to answer it even. That means you do not read. If you knew that God does not speak with rascals or anyone ordinary, then you would have immediately replied, "God does not speak to you. It is not possible. It requires qualification." Why should you believe it and waste your time? Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu prays that one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige. How do we lose that desire for false prestige? Prabhupāda: Answer him. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Desire for false prestige? First of all, ceto*-darpana-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). The heart is full of so many dirty things, and basically all of these revolve around the bodily concept of life—I think I'm this body. Therefore we're desiring honor, we don't like to be dishonored; and looking for so many gains, we don't like to lose something. So there are so many dualities that exist: respect and disrespect, honor and dishonor. So when you become purified, freed from the bodily concept of life by chanting, then naturally honor and dishonor, they are not very important; they are only in relationship to the body. Prabhupāda: (aside) Come nearer. Yes. Now argue, whether you are satisfied with his answer. If not, say it. In this way, discuss. Are you satisfied with his answer? Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it says that the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta is the postgraduate study for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Hmm, hear him. What does he say? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the postgraduate study . . . *Devotees: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , postgraduate study. *Kulaśekhara: So if we're very attracted to reading Caitanya*-caritāmṛta now, but we haven't finished Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , is that good? Or should we wait until we have studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam thoroughly? *Prabhupāda: It does not mean that one who is not postgraduate, he cannot read other books. Spiritual life is not a stereotype like that. But one who is not postgraduate, it is little difficult for him to understand the statement of . . . just like in the beginning of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said, na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāj jagati para-tattvaṁ param iha (CC Adi 1.3), that there is no superior truth than Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So if you have not studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , you'll not understand this statement. If you understand, "Yes, Caitanya is the Supreme Truth," then it is to be understood that you have graduated. And if you are not, then it will be difficult for you to understand. *Kulaśekhara: Then the more we understand Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , the more we'll understand the Caitanya-caritāmṛta . *Prabhupāda: Yes, and if you understood Bhāgavatam thoroughly, then you can understand Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . But if you have not understood Bhāgavatam , then you cannot understand Caitanya-caritāmṛta . The simple statement, na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāt para-tattvaṁ param iha . Where is Caitanya-caritāmṛta ? Bring. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Which volume, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: First volume. That means you are not reading, you simply are referring. This is the difficulty. Without thoroughly reading something, we bring so many questions. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore forbidden, bahu śāstra nā pore . Don't bother yourself reading so many books at a time. You'll be puzzled. Find out this verse, yad advaitaṁ brahmopaniṣadi tad apy asya tanu*-bhā . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't believe there's an index in this first volume. Prabhupāda: In the first chapter you'll find. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: In the first seventeen verses, "What is described in the *Upaniṣads* . . ." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yad advaita . . . *Prabhupāda: Yad advaitaṁ brahma*-upaniṣadi . Go, find out. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "What the *Upaniṣads* describe as the impersonal Brahman is but the effulgence of His body, and the Lord known as the Supersoul is but His localized plenary portion. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa Himself, full with six opulences. He is the Absolute Truth, and no other truth is greater than or equal to Him." *Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . So will anyone be able to understand this verse? Hmm? Everything is stated there, what is Caitanya. Will everyone be able to understand it? That is the proof that he's not graduate. If he is graduate, then he should understand. Therefore it is postgraduate. *Kulādri: One must understand Bhagavad*-gītā before Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam ? *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is stated there, yad advaitaṁ brahma upaniṣadi . That means he must understand the Upaniṣads . He must understand what is Brahman. So without understanding this, how he can understand Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ? It will be explained there, but the fact is this. What is that? Is there any explanation? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, no purport to this verse. Prabhupāda: So further on there is explanation. Find out that. *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? How does one know when he has the understanding of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: What does he say? Answer him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What did you say? *Devotee (2): How does one know when he has the understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One has understood Bhagavad*-gītā who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, because Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), that "The essence of all knowledge is to surrender unto Me, to give up all other duties." So one who takes that instruction as life and soul, he has understood Bhagavad-gītā . Is that all right? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same verse again in the Second Chapter. (break) "The *Upaniṣads* , which are considered the most elevated portion of the Vedic literatures, are meant for persons who desire to get free from material association and who therefore approach a bona fide spiritual master for enlightenment. The prefix upa indicates that one must receive knowledge about the Absolute Truth from a spiritual master. One who has faith in his spiritual master actually receives transcendental instruction, and as his attachment for material life slackens, he is able to advance on the spiritual path. Knowledge of the transcendental science of the *Upaniṣads* . . ." Prabhupāda: Where is that boy? You are hearing? Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Knowledge of the transcendental science of the *Upaniṣads* can free one from the entanglement of existence in the material world, and when thus liberated, one can be elevated to the spiritual kingdom of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by advancement in spiritual life. *"The beginning of spiritual enlightenment is realization of impersonal Brahman. Such realization is effected by gradual negation of material variegatedness. Impersonal Brahman realization is the partial, distant experience of the Absolute Truth that one achieves through the rational approach. It is compared to one's seeing a hill from a distance and taking it to be a smoky cloud. A hill is not a smoky cloud, but it appears to be one from a distance because of our imperfect vision. In imperfect or smoky realization of the Absolute Truth, spiritual variegatedness is conspicuous by its absence. This experience is therefore called advaita*-vāda , or realization of the oneness of the Absolute. *"The impersonal glowing effulgence of Brahman consists only of the personal bodily rays of the Supreme Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Since Śrī Gaurasundara, or Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, is identical with Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself, the Brahman effulgence consists of the rays of His transcendental body. Similarly, the Supersoul, which is called the Paramātmā, is a plenary representation of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The antaryāmi , the Supersoul in everyone's heart, is the controller of all living entities. This is confirmed in Bhagavad*-gītā , wherein Lord Kṛṣṇa says, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ : "I am situated in everyone's heart." (BG 15.15) Bhagavad-gītā also states, Fifth Chapter, twenty-ninth verse, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29), indicating that the Supreme Lord, acting in His expansion as the Supersoul, is the proprietor of everything. Similarly, the Brahma-saṁhitā states, aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35): the Lord is present everywhere, within the heart of every living entity and within each and every atom as well. Thus by this Supersoul feature the Lord is all-pervading. "Furthermore, Lord Caitanya is also the master of all wealth, strength, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation because He is Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself. He is described as pūrṇa , or complete. In the feature of Lord Caitanya, the Lord is an ideal renouncer, just as Śrī Rāma was an ideal king. He accepted the order of sannyāsa and exemplified exceedingly wonderful principles in His own life. No one can compare to Him in the order of sannyāsa ." Prabhupāda: (aside) Not like that. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Although in Kali*-yuga acceptance of the sannyāsa order is generally forbidden, Lord Caitanya accepted it . . ." Prabhupāda: (aside) On the head. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ". . . because He is complete in renunciation. Others cannot imitate Him but can only follow in His footsteps as far as possible. Those who are unfit for this order of life are strictly forbidden by the injunctions of the śāstras to accept it. Lord Caitanya, however, is complete in renunciation as well as all other opulences. He is therefore the highest principle of the Absolute Truth. By an analytical study of the truth of Lord Caitanya, one will find that He is not different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. No one is greater than or even equal to Him. In Bhagavad*-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): 'O conqueror of wealth (Arjuna), there is no truth superior to Me.' Thus it is here confirmed that there is no truth higher than Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. *"The impersonal Brahman is the goal of those who cultivate the study of books of transcendental knowledge, and the Supersoul is the goal of those who perform the yoga practices. One who knows the Supreme Personality of Godhead surpasses realization of both Brahman and Paramātmā, because Bhagavān is the ultimate platform of absolute knowledge. The Personality of Godhead is the complete form of sac*-cidananda (full life, knowledge and bliss). By realization of the sat portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited existence), one realizes the impersonal Brahman of the Lord. By realization of the cit portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited knowledge), one can realize the localized aspect of the Lord, Paramātmā. But neither of these partial realizations of the Complete Whole can help one realize ānanda , or complete bliss. Without such realization of ānanda , knowledge of the Absolute Truth is incomplete. *"This verse of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta by Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī is confirmed by a parallel statement in the Tattva-sandarbha by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī. In the Eighth Part of Tattva-sandarbha it is said that the Absolute Truth is sometimes approached as impersonal Brahman, which, although spiritual, is only a partial representation of the Absolute Truth. Nārāyaṇa, the predominating Deity in Vaikuṇṭha, is to be known as an expansion of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, but Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Absolute Truth, the object of the transcendental love of all living entities." Prabhupāda: So is it clear? (laughs) It is not so easy. (laughter) Therefore it is postgraduate. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can these things be understood theoretically, Śrīla Prabhupāda, or is realization required? Prabhupāda: Realization required. What is the use of theoretical knowledge? Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, can realization be had through service without theoretical understanding? *Prabhupāda: This whole science is understood through service only. Everything becomes revealed. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). Revelation. Everything is revelation. Unless one is very sincere servant, there is no revelation. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it described a gradual process of realizing Kṛṣṇa, but does the devotee go through these levels of understanding Brahman then Paramātmā then Bhagavān? Prabhupāda: Hmm? (microphone moving) Dhṛṣṭadyumna: It was described how the levels of understanding the Absolute—Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Does the devotee gradually go through these levels, or does he immediately realize Brahman when his service is perfect? Prabhupāda: That depends on his capacity. (aside) Just on the head do it. Devotee (2): Mahārāja Kīrtanānanda said that our actual realization comes through our actions. So we are, in building this New Vrindavan, we are actually . . . this is taken to be our preaching, or our life and soul. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: What is your question? Devotee (2): My question is how do we . . . Devotee (3): Prabhupāda, his question is will one become realized by continually engaging in devotional service under the direction of a bona fide representative of the spiritual master? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The question is that his service is here in New Vrindavan under Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Will serving the representative of the spiritual master . . . is that as good as serving the spiritual master? Will it get the same result? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that was the question. No? At least, I understand the question to be: Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: That is the Absolute Truth. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Absolute means there is no difference. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's service, the same. So discuss it further. Devotee: Is that to say that if one— brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11)—that if one simply goes on serving, engaging in all sorts of different activities for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, but he never, in this lifetime at least, has realization of Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān . . .? *Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Everything is explained. By seeing the sun one can understand the sunshine, the sun globe and the sun*-god. There are three things. Within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke to Vivasvata." So there is a person Vivasvata, and the globe is there, we see, and the sunshine is there. So what is the difficulty to understand? Hmm? Three things are there. The person within the sun globe, Vivasvata, is there; *otherwise how Kṛṣṇa could speak with him? He says, imaṁ vivasvate yogam : "Unto Vivasvata I spoke." So there is a person. And we can see the globe, and we can see the sunshine. Is there any difficulty? So similarly, the Brahman is the sunshine, light, and Paramātmā is the sun globe, and Bhagavān is the sun*-god. This is . . . the sun is one example. From this example we can understand the Absolute. Where is the difficulty? (aside) Sit down properly. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). As heat and light, all of them are the same . . . in the sunshine there is heat and light, in the sun globe there is heat and light, and within the sun globe there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. You can tolerate the heat and light of the sunshine, but if you go to the sun globe you'll be finished. Temperature's so high, it requires a special qualification. Similarly, from heat and light point of view, Brahman, Paramātmā, Bhagavān, the same. Everywhere there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. So one who understands Brahman, he cannot understand Paramātmā. He understands, but not as thoroughly. Similarly, one who understands Paramātmā, he can understand Bhagavān. But if you understand Bhagavān, then you understand Paramātmā, Brahman, everything. Kulaśekhara: So we should simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Try to understand everything, but understanding Kṛṣṇa, you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam eva vijñātaṁ bhavanti (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). And because you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore you do not understand Brahman, you do not understand Paramātmā. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then it is automatically understood. We have not understood Brahman, Paramātmā, because we have not understood Kṛṣṇa properly. Kṛṣṇa says, aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "I am the source of everything." So Brahman is also from Kṛṣṇa, Paramātmā is also from Kṛṣṇa. And so other Bhagavāns—there are so many Bhagavāns also—they are from Kṛṣṇa. *So if you understand Kṛṣṇa you can understand everything. And as soon as you say that you have not understood it, therefore you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. They cannot understand. Just like Māyāvādīs, they do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore they do not understand Brahman also. And therefore they fall down, because they have not understood either Brahman or Kṛṣṇa. Patanty adhaḥ . This is stated in the śāstra . Anādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32), because they have not understood Kṛṣṇa, even they have gone up to the Brahman, they cannot stand there; they fall down. Again they come to the material world. The Māyāvādīs, they say, brahma satyma jagan mithyā : "Brahman is truth, and this material world is false." They take sannyāsa , but after some time they fall down, again take to other businesses than Brahman in the material world. Just like our Vivekananda. He came to the Western countries to preach Vedānta , and he has advertised that "Whole America has become Vedāntist ." The proof of Vedānta is when he returned to India he became very enthusiastic to open hospitals, like the Christian missionaries. So if the material world is false, so why he's trying to open hospital? Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . Jagat is mithyā . So why in the mithyā platform he's taking credit by opening hospital? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, as long as people are suffering, they can't realize that they are God. Prabhupāda: So you cannot stop the suffering. You are unable. You are also suffering from the same disease. So don't say that jagat mithyā . If they are suffering, that's a fact. Then how do you say it is mithyā , it is false? If it is mithyā , then why you are affected by the suffering? There are so many questions. That means not realization. Contradictory. If you feel the suffering, then why you call it mithyā ? It is fact. Why do you say it is mithyā ? That means you have no realization. You are accepting suffering as mithyā . We say suffering is not mithyā; it is fact. But if you want to save from suffering, then you get out of this material world. We don't say that, that suffering is mithyā or this world is mithyā . We don't say that. We are offering this flower to Kṛṣṇa, not as mithyā; *it is a means of service. Why shall I say it is mithyā ? By offering . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26): by offering a little flower. How can I say this is mithyā ? Māyāvādīs' philosophy, it is mithyā . With mithyā we can approach the satya ? By hundreds of false we can make one truth? Kṛṣṇa says that "If you offer Me a little flower," so how can I say this is mithyā ? It is not mithyā . It is satya . When it is satya ? When it is offered to Kṛṣṇa. And when you take it for your sense gratification, that is mithyā . That is mithyā . You cannot enjoy it. If you enjoy it, then go to hell. If you offer it to Kṛṣṇa, you go to Him. So how can I say it is mithyā ? You cannot approach Kṛṣṇa with something mithyā . Then Kṛṣṇa becomes mithyā . There are so many things to be studied. We don't say like that. We find there is relationship of Kṛṣṇa with everything. When we find this beautiful rose, we find the intelligence of Kṛṣṇa. By Kṛṣṇa's intelligence it has come out so nice, fragrant, beautiful. They say it is made by nature. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). So under Kṛṣṇa's direction nature has made it so beautiful. That is a fact. Therefore I find there is hand of Kṛṣṇa in this flower. So Kṛṣṇa has made this; this is Kṛṣṇa's property; it should be offered to Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti. We are not offering something mithyā to Kṛṣṇa. It is fact. It is made by Kṛṣṇa. If you say, "No, no, I don't touch this flower," so what is credit there? You have not prepared it. You touch or not touch, it doesn't matter. If you say, "No, no, it is material. I don't touch it," you may not touch it, but you do not know it is not material, it is spiritual, it is made by Kṛṣṇa. So you have to study deeply. Everything is . . . ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the source of everything." So the flower is also from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), from whom everything is emanating. The flower is also within the everything. How can I say it is false? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kulādri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said we can't understand Brahman unless we understand Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real understanding. And without Kṛṣṇa, if you understand brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , then you fall down. Kulādri: But it seems, then, you have to come to the full understanding before it does any good. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means those who are simply trying to understand Brahman, they are not understanding. Kulādri: Then what does it mean, gradual process, gradual advancement in transcendental realization? Prabhupāda: Gradual process, just like you are here in the sunshine. So if you are intelligent, you'll understand that the temperature in the sunshine and the temperature in the sun globe is different. So Brahman understanding is the lowest stage. Paramātmā understanding little higher. And Bhagavān understanding is complete. That is gradual. And these Māyāvādīs, they do not try to understand Kṛṣṇa. They are satisfied only with understanding Brahman. Therefore they fall down. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta (SB 10.2.32). Because there is no standing. The impersonal feature, that the sky . . . go very high in the sky, you do not see anymore this planet earth, neither you see anything, you'll be mad. Then you will find out how to go back again. You cannot stay there in that condition. Although they say " so'ham ," no, you cannot stay there. Just imagine, if you go very high and you do not see any other thing, only sky, will you be able to stay in that condition? You go in the sea. When you do not find anything, all water, you become very much anxious, "Where is land? Where is land?" And as soon as you have a glimpse of land, island, you become very, "Oh, there is land." So this is impersonal understanding. It is simply imagination, that simply by Brahman understanding he'll be happy. No, that is not possible. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, then even Brahman has to be understood in relationship to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (1): Even Brahman has to be understood . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real understanding. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham (BG 14.27). Prabhupāda: Hmm. Now wherefrom this fragrance have come? Devotees: From the earth. Prabhupāda: Get out this fragrance from earth, you scientist. By Kṛṣṇa's manipulation here is fragrance. Everyone knows it has come from earth. If there is, in the earth, there is no such fragrance, wherefrom it came? So therefore it is there, it is understood, but you get it out. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, we can take the chemicals and mix them, produce fragrance. Prabhupāda: Take the chemicals? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. We can analyze the chemical structure and make . . . *Prabhupāda: No, the flower has taken directly, without any chemical addition. You do that. It is a fact, the flavor is there within the earth. You take the flavor, extract the flavor. Not only this flavor, there are different flavors, all, everything there. There are so many flowers coming out. Huh? Sarva*-kāma dugha-mahī (SB 1.10.4). Mahī means earth. Everything's coming out from the earth. But not in your attempt. It is Kṛṣṇa's attempt that He can take out. Out of so many different flavors, everything is there within the earth, but Kṛṣṇa's manipulation takes the different colors, different flavors, different bodies, everything. That is Kṛṣṇa's manipulation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10). Just like in our kitchen we have got the ingredients, rice, ḍāl , āṭṭā , ghee . But the expert can prepare hundreds of preparations. That expert is Kṛṣṇa. And if one is not expert, even the ingredients are there, he'll spoil everything. He'll mix the āṭṭā with water then put ghee and then put rice. (laughter) This is the . . . we have to become expert. If you become expert, then you'll do very nice purī , ḍāl , rice . . . (indistinct) . . . there are so many varieties. You enjoy. And if you are not expert, you'll spoil. So Kṛṣṇa is expert and Kṛṣṇa bhakta is expert, because he takes lesson from Kṛṣṇa. So for them this is not mithyā . Rascals who spoil it, they think it is mithyā . He could not do anything. He mix with a conglomeration, and because he could not get any result, he said mithyā . Disappointment. And one who knows, he knows how to utilize it. Just like we are utilizing the cows in so many nice preparations, and these rascal killing them. Finished. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And then they want to say that this is mithyā , that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is mithyā . Prabhupāda: Whatever they say, practically see. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. They do not know how to use the cow, only kill. Devotee (4): You said that is the sour grape philosophy. Prabhupāda: Grape philosophy? What is that? Hari-śauri: Sour grapes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The fox . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: . . . wanted to taste the grapes, but he couldn't, so he said they are no good. *Prabhupāda: You do not know expert. So if we remain under the guidance of Kṛṣṇa, then we also become expert to some extent. And Kṛṣṇa's expertly service or intelligence we can see in the flower, so many flowers. So why shall I not take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66)? That is intelligence. That is intelligence. We see Kṛṣṇa's expertly manipulation. So if we take Kṛṣṇa's shelter, at least we shall get little intelligence. Dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam (BG 10.10): "He gets the intelligence directly from Me." And that is wanted. Why it is foolishly dealing with this rice, ḍāl , and make spoil everything? Be little expert from Kṛṣṇa's instructions and make everything nice. Kṛṣṇa personally teaches how to deal with cows. He never showed the example of killing the cows. He maintained the cows, the calf. He was distributing butter even to the monkeys. And the pasturing ground became muddy on account of milk dropping from the bags. This is Kṛṣṇa. And He is personally taking care. So why the Kṛṣṇa's devotees should not do it? Give protection to the cows and utilize the milk. That is one of the item of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not keeping hogs and dogs; we are keeping cows, because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa did not keep so many dogs, as nowadays so many big, big men, they are keeping dogs. Kṛṣṇa did not do so. If we follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then we are perfect. Practical example. We have not invent. If we simply follow what Kṛṣṇa has instructed us, then we become perfect. Devotee (5): How can we perfectly follow only what Kṛṣṇa has said? The other evening you said that the patient, he is always a fool and a rascal. Prabhupāda: Answer him. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But one should not remain a fool and a rascal. If the doctor has given the formula, you have to follow it. He says "Don't eat this but stay in bed, sleep so much," you have to do it, otherwise you will stay sick. Prabhupāda: You'll remain a rascal if you don't follow the instruction. So what do you want? You remain a rascal or make advance? What you want? Huh? Devotee (5): To become advanced. Prabhupāda: Then follow. If you willfully remain a rascal, that is the difference. Otherwise, if you follow you'll become advanced. Everywhere you'll find Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. He says mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10). They explain, "Nature." But they cannot explain what is nature. We can explain. Nature is a system which is being handled by Kṛṣṇa. That is real understanding. Nature, we can see that from nature this flower is coming, this flower is coming. But why not . . .? They say accidentally. If it is accident, why in the plant of this flower sometimes rose is not coming accidentally? And why from the rose plant not accidentally this flower is coming? So where is the question of accident? You have never experienced such accident. The same plant, the same flower is coming. Where is a proof by accident another flower has come? Where is the proof? So why do they say like that, "accident"? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Because they don't want to accept God. Prabhupāda: No, no, accept God or not, where the accident theory comes? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well if they don't give some explanation, then they'll be considered fools. *Prabhupāda: Some explanation, they have to give you something foolish explanation? So foolish man will accept that, not a sane man. If you say "by accident," then I'll say why not accident in the history of the world there is a rose plant some other flower has come out? If man has come from monkey, why not coming now? So they give so many foolish propositions, only fools will accept. Anyone who has a little reasoning power they will not . . . they'll understand that these are all crazy fellows, talking all nonsense. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ (SB 5.18.12). We have got little formula to understand that if one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious he has no good qualifications. He cannot say anything as a qualified person. That is the test. Mūḍha . Immediately take: a mūḍha . Let the mūḍhas speak all nonsense. Why should we waste our time? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As soon as we find somebody not Kṛṣṇa conscious, not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, we take, reject. He's a rascal, that's all. And he is rascal. Not only blindly we are rejecting, but with reason. (break) So one learned brāhmaṇa , he said, "All right sir, namaskār your Kṛṣṇa. I cannot believe all these things." And the cobbler, he began to cry: "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is so great, He can do anything." So he, Nārada Muni asked, he saw the learned brāhmaṇa refused to accept, and this cobbler is so absorbed that he's crying, "Ah, Kṛṣṇa can do anything." So he asked him, "Do you believe this?" "Yes, why not?" "So how do you believe it?" "Now I'm sitting under this banyan tree, and so many banyan fruits are falling down, and I can see there are hundreds and thousands of seeds within the fig, and each seed contains a banyan tree. So why can I not believe? If within this seed a big banyan tree can be kept, what is the difficulty for Kṛṣṇa to pull the elephant through the hole of a needle?" He has got reason. He is not blindly believing. How the scientist, who does not believe in God, he can explain that within the small seed there is a big banyan tree? Let them do that. By chemical composition make little seed. As I told, make little egg. They cannot do anything. Still they are so proud. *Dhrstadyumna: Yesterday we read, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that these are the qualities of the demon, that arrogance and pride, and their philosophy is there is no God in control. Kṛṣṇa said in Bhagavad*-gītā . *Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in that story, the cobbler actually was more advanced than the brāhmaṇa , and yet in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that "Anyone can approach Me, even the strī śūdra dvija-bandhu ," they can all approach the supreme destination. Then in the next verse He says, "How much greater, then, are the brāhmaṇas , the righteous, the devotees, the saintly kings." I was wondering how are they greater? Prabhupāda: You do not understand it? Devotee (1): I do not understand how they are greater than the lower person who surrenders. Prabhupāda: Suppose you have got your spiritual master and you, if somebody says that you can come into the . . . any one of you can come in this car. So spiritual master goes, you also go. Does it mean that spiritual master is not greater than you? Do you think like that? Devotee (1): No. Prabhupāda: Then? It is the same thing. Suppose Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja has brought this car, so he says, "All of you can come." So I go, you go. Does it mean that you and your spiritual master is equal? Do you think like that? It is same thing. Everyone can go to Godhead, there is no doubt, but still there is difference between brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , śūdra . So far going into the car, the equal right is there, but it does not mean that your spiritual master or the next group, they are not greater than you. Don't think like that. The same car, so Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is driving, I am also there, you are also there. Does it mean that we are all equal? There must be gradation. The right is given to everyone. It does not mean that immediately they become all one. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He accepted everyone, "Come on." But the distinction is there. We are inviting everyone to partake Kṛṣṇa prasādam . That does not mean that immediately all of them have become of the equal rank. (pause) Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was so kind, but still there was distinction. When He was taking prasādam , personal associates, they were sitting with Him. Is it not? So this is called maryādā . Maryādā means "honor." That must . . . that varieties must be there. Otherwise we become Māyāvādīs—everything is equal, all one. This is Māyāvāda philosophy. No varieties. There must be variety. That is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And as soon as you make it varietyless, all equal, that is Māyāvāda . Just see even in this flower. This is also flower and this is also flower. Does it mean they are of the same rank? This is understanding. Together they look very beautiful, but if you take separate value, then it is valuable than this flower. That distinction must be there. If somebody says, "I am accepting even the leaf in this garland," then what to speak of rose? It is like that. Kṛṣṇa says that. That does not mean leaf and rose have the same value. One is making a beautiful garland: I am accepting everything. Mixed together it looks very nice, but individually the leaf has value, the rose has value, the flower has value. Not that because they are put together they have equal value. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Kulādri: In a democracy they say everyone is . . . Prabhupāda: Nonsense democracy. What is . . .? Don't talk of this nonsense talk. (laughter) Democracy, communism, still there are varieties. But you make a president. Let everyone become president. Kulādri: That's what they've done, now the śūdras . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: They have not done. Has everyone got the president's power? How do they say that you have done? Everyone equal? That is not possible. These are imagination. Mano*-rathenasato dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). Everything is there in the Bhāgavatam . Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ (SB 5.18.12). These rascals who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they have no value. They are simply speculating within the mind, mano-rathena, and they'll act all abominable, because they are on the mental platform. I'll say, "I think like this," you'll say, "I think like this." And nobody, none of us perfect. Then what is the use of your thinking like this or thinking like that? Both of them are imperfect. So if so many rascals sit together, or dogs, they simply bark, that's all. It has no value. So our propaganda is that "Don't remain in the dog platform. Come to the human platform." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There you will get, "If we all dogs meet together and pass a resolution, then it will be organized." That is democracy. Democracy means like that. The dog is kept as dog, and they are assembled together to take their votes. What is the value of their vote? They are dogs. I've publicly said this. Where? Devotees: Melbourne. Prabhupāda: Melbourne. The United Nation is an assembly of barking dogs, I've said that, (laughs) and they published it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "His Divine Grace has come to hound us." *Devotee (2): There is a so*-called spiritual master, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who is giving meditation courses to them. Prabhupāda: That is another cheating. In meditation,whatever nonsense they are doing, you don't know, nobody knows. That's all. Bhava satrugna . "If you become dumb, you have no enemy." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate . "A rascal is beautiful so long he does not speak." So better meditation; don't speak. Nobody will detect you. This is going on. If you speak, then you'll be detected what you are. And if you sleep by posing meditation, then nobody will ask, "What you are doing, nonsense?" This is meditation. Meditation is another cheating. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja has detected. Hmm? Find out this verse, Seventh Canto. Hari-śauri: This Śrī Chinmoy is supposed to be this resident guru at the United Nations . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever he may be, but we have got our own formula to understand. *Hari-śauri: He did a practical demonstration of what he said a person who is in touch with God can be capable of doing if he allows himself to become an instrument of God. So for eight months he painted continually, and he produced 27,000 paintings, and he said that this was proof that he was God*-realized. Prabhupāda: Mauna . The word begins with mauna . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maunam , like in "silence." Mauna*-vrata-śruta-tapo-adhyayana ? *"O Supreme Personality of Godhead, there are ten prescribed methods on the path to liberation—to remain silent, not to speak to anyone, to observe vows, to amass all kinds of Vedic knowledge, to undergo austerities, to study the Vedas and other Vedic literatures, to execute the duties of varṇāśrama*-dharma , to explain the śāstras , to stay in a solitary place, to chant mantras silently and to be absorbed in trance. These different methods for liberation are generally only a professional practice and means of livelihood . . ." Prabhupāda: Means of livelihood. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ". . . means of livelihood for those who have not conquered their senses. Because such persons are falsely proud, these procedures may not be successful." Prabhupāda: You can get some prestigious position from another rascal, but that will not solve the problem. What is the purport there? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: "As stated in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam (SB 6.1.15): *"Only a rare person who has adopted complete, unalloyed devotional service to Kṛṣṇa can uproot the weeds of sinful actions with no possibility that they will revive. He can do this simply by discharging devotional service, just as the sun can immediately dissipate fog by its rays." The real purpose of human life is to attain liberation from material entanglement. Such liberation may be achieved by many methods - tapasa brahmacāryeṇa śamena ca damena ca (SB 6.1.13) - but all of them more or less depend on tapasya , austerity, which begins with celibacy. Śukadeva Gosvāmī says that those who are vāsudeva*-parāyaṇa , who have fully surrendered to the lotus feet of Lord Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, automatically achieve the results of mauna (silence), vrata (vows), and other such methods, simply by discharging devotional service." *Prabhupāda: Take, for example, mauna . Mauna means don't talk rubbish. It is better not to talk than to talk foolish. So mauna is meant for them who cannot talk about Kṛṣṇa. Better stop talking. Mauna*-vrata . Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa, he'll talk all nonsense. So sometimes the spiritual master says that "You remain silent for twelve years." So (laughter) instead of talking nonsense, you remain silent for twelve years. That is mauna . Because as soon as you'll talk, you'll be captured where you are. Better not to talk. This is mauna-vrata . But one who is devotee, why he'll not . . .? He'll talk about Kṛṣṇa. Vācāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane (SB 9.4.18). Always talking about Kṛṣṇa. Why he should be silent? If he remains silent, then people will not get the benefit. Let him speak always of Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that. Y āre dekha , tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): whomever you meet, you simply talk about Kṛṣṇa, what He has taught in the Bhagavad-gītā , you become guru. So why guru will stop? Guru will speak. But what kind of speaking? What Kṛṣṇa has spoken. Not nonsense. Not like that: "I have painted so many pictures, therefore I have become God-realized." Where Bhagavān says "By painting pictures one may . . ." He does not say. Kṛṣṇa does not say. He has invented this. So therefore our test is, whether he's a bona fide guru , whether he's talking what Kṛṣṇa has said. Then he's guru . Otherwise a rascal. That's all, finished. Why should we bother? This is the test. If he's speaking, repeating the same thing, what Kṛṣṇa said, then he's guru . If he's talking something else, then he's rascal. Immediately take it. If you know this art, how to detect the rascal and guru , the test is already there. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So guru will say, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." He'll never say that "I have become Kṛṣṇa. You simply surrender to me." To surrender to Kṛṣṇa means surrender to guru also. You'll learn it. So "Kṛṣṇa is now dead; now I have become Kṛṣṇa," this is rascal, immediately. *So to test a guru and a rascal, there is no difficulty if you are well conversant with the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . There is no question. Kṛṣṇa says, ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). This confidential knowledge, what is that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66), one who is teaching this confidential knowledge—"Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa"—Kṛṣṇa says, "Ah, he is My dearmost friend." So you become dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa. Simply say what Kṛṣṇa says. Why do you speak all other nonsense things? You immediately become the dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa. And if you manufacture, then you are a rascal. Why shall I accept a rascal? We shall accept the dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa as guru . That is wanted. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, when He was asked by a gṛhastha devotee what should be the behavior of a Vaiṣṇava, He immediately said, asat-saṅga tyāga, ei vaiṣṇava ācāra (CC Madhya 22.87): "Give up the company of all rascals, asat ." Asat means those who are rascals. That is Vaiṣṇava. Do not mix with all rascals, asat . Now how shall I know who is rascal and who is not a . . .? Asat eka 'strī-saṅgī kṛṣṇa-bhakta āra . One who is too much attached with woman, he is rascal. Another rascal: who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. *So we have got everything test tube. Put the test tube and you understand. If one is strī*-saṅgī . . . strī-saṅgī means not only the man. The man or woman, one who are very much sexually attached, he is a rascal. One should give up his company. And another rascal: who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. So if you want to be a Vaiṣṇava, you must give up the company of these two rascals. Then your progress is guaranteed. Everything is there. There is no difficulty to distinguish between rascals and intelligent, guru and bluffer. Everything is there. And to become a perfect Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, asat-saṅga tyāga ei vaiṣṇava : don't talk even with these rascals. But sometimes in the preaching work we have to talk with such rascals, but not to take their theory but to teach them our theory. If you become defeated by their theory, then you are not a preacher. Don't preach; *chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You are not fit for teaching. If you become overcome by their teaching, then you are finished. A preacher is madhyama*-adhikārī , advanced devotee. He can preach. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī should be engaged in temple worship very nicely, then gradually he'll come to the madhyama-adhikārī . *So the preacher is madhyama*-adhikārī . A kaniṣṭha-adhikārī cannot become preacher. Who is in the lowest stage of devotional service, he cannot become preacher. He'll be conquered by the asat . And madhyama-adhikārī , he knows how to deal with asat . At least he does not mix with them. That's all. If he cannot defeat them, he should avoid them, because that valuable time can be utilized for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness to a person who is inquisitive to hear. Bāliśya . Bāliśya means innocent. He wants to know something about Kṛṣṇa. Better deal with him than with the rascals and waste time. Better avoid the rascals. Just like in hospital, emergency cases, the doctors, when they see that this patient hopeless, he does not take care anymore. But when there is hope, they give medicine and try to . . . the hopeless condition, better not. Don't talk with them. That's all. That is vaiṣṇava-ācāra . Then he'll remain safe. Hopeless person, don't waste your time talking with them. Īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca . Four observations. Bhagavān—īśvara; prema —love; *and prema*-maitrī , friendship with devotees; and kṛpa , mercy to the innocent person; *and upekṣā , no more talking. Don't waste time talking with all these nonsense. Better utilize, properly utilize the time by instructing a person who is innocent and eager to hear. Like that. So this mauna*-vrata-tapas-śruti . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Prabhupāda: These things are meant for ajitendriyānām , who could not control the senses. Ajitendriyānām . And who has engaged his senses in the service of the Lord, they are not ajitendriya . If you have engaged your mind in Kṛṣṇa—the mind is the king of senses—then your senses cannot be misled. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha (SB 9.4.18). Then if your mind is always in Kṛṣṇa, man-mana bhava mad bhakto , then what you'll speak except Kṛṣṇa? If you speak nonsense, that means your mind is not engaged in Kṛṣṇa. The mind is the center of all sensual activities. So if your mind is always in Kṛṣṇa, how we can talk nonsense? Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane . He'll be always engaged in talking about Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. So if we keep our mind always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there is no question of mauna , because we'll have to talk about Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I remain mauna ? If we talk about Kṛṣṇa, or what Kṛṣṇa has said, then I am benefited, and the audience, he is also benefited. Take Bhagavad-gītā and talk. So those who are Kṛṣṇa devotees, they will gladly hear. Those who are inquisitive, innocent, they'll also hear. And the dviṣāt , those who are envious, they'll go away. That's good, clear. Talk about Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. Don't talk anything else. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can we give up our enviousness and reluctance to serve the spiritual master and the other devotees? Prabhupāda: Answer him. Dhrstadyumna: One can free himself from envy by serving. You serve the devotees and follow the instruction of the spiritual master. In this way the mind becomes your best friend. *Prabhupāda: A devotee is never envious of another devotee. He is not a devotee. Tad*-adhīneṣu maitrī (SB 11.2.46). One who is devotee, we have to make friendship with them. How we can hate them? Hm. Devotees: Jaya , all glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya , haribol . (offer obeisances) ( kirtan ) (end) (Garden Conversation) Prabhupāda: So, any question from the newcomers? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This gentleman, he owns this house, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He mentions that he met you way back in 1966, in Tompkins Square Park. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) (break) Prabhupāda: If you go somewhere, you must know first of all why you have gone there. That is the first question. If you go to a store, the first business is that you have gone to purchase some particular thing from the store. That is understood. Similarly, why one should go to a spiritual master? What is the purpose? Answer, any one of you. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One is . . . when one is confused and frustrated by this material existence, he wants to find an answer to his problems. So there are different authorities in the world offering solutions, but one has to find the actual authority. Prabhupāda: That is the purport. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsu śreya uttamam ( SB 11.3.21). One has to go to guru when one is inquisitive. Jijñāsu . Jijñāsu means we want to know so many things; that is our nature. Child also wants to know. He asks his parents, "What is this, father? What is this, mother?" That inquisitiveness is there in everyone. So when one wants to know about the Supreme, then he requires a guru , or spiritual master. It is not a fashion, that "Everyone keeps a guru; *let me also have a guru ." Not like that. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12): "In order to understand the transcendental science, one has to go to guru ." Jijñāsu śreya uttamam . After artha . . . just like generally, naturally, one goes to temple, church, four classes of men. One is needy: "O God, give us our daily bread." One thinks . . . actually, that is the fact. God gives us bread. So traditionally we are trained up. So we go to God, "Give us our daily bread." Similarly, one who wants to know what is God. Just like in our society, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they see that these boys, young boys, they have given up everything, they are after Kṛṣṇa. What is this Kṛṣṇa? That is intelligent. Why they are after this Kṛṣṇa? Then he has to go to a person, guru . In this way, there are many circumstances. But the real purpose is to know the Supreme. One who is inquisitive or anxious to know about the Supreme, then there is necessity of guru . Otherwise, what is the use of it? One who is not inquisitive to understand the Supreme, he has no business for a guru . *But everyone has necessity to understand the Supreme. That is human life. A dog cannot inquire what is God, because he is dog. But a man can do that. He has got that developed intelligence. So if a man does not inquire about the Supreme Truth, he is no better than a dog. If one does not seek after spiritual master, he's a dog. He's in the standard of dog. Because that inquiry is the particular business of human being, to inquire about the Supreme. If he does not inquire, that still he's on the platform of dog. First of all, you have understood it or not? So any human being with developed intelligence must go to a spiritual master. If he does not go, then he's still in the animal platform. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means he must. If he does not, then he is in the animal platform. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? So if one is looking for a guru , but there are many people they are proclaiming themselves guru , and they are speaking "Supreme," "God," how may one tell the actual guru ? Prabhupāda: That is, if you want to purchase something, you must know where to purchase. Otherwise, you may be cheated. You, generally, you ask your friend that "I want to purchase some diamond, so can you give me some reliable address where I can go and purchase?" Generally, people do that. So you have to do that. If you want to purchase, you must know the preliminary understanding where diamond can be purchased. And if you are not aware of it, you may be cheated. That preliminary knowledge you must have. That means best thing is, those who are dealing with diamonds, you go there. Just like if anyone is inquisitive to understand God, so best thing is those who are dealing with God only, they have no other business. Then you go there. That is the intelligent. Why should you go to a cheater? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is especially distributing knowledge about God. So why do they not come here and inquire? First thing is, unless one is inquisitive to understand God, or Absolute Truth, he has no necessity of guru . But if he is actually serious, then he must go to a person where the dealing is only God. That's all. Just like ordinarily, if anyone wants to purchase some share of company, he goes to the share market and he sees the price of different shares, and he selects. So everything requires little intelligence, then it is all right. Otherwise, you may be cheated. Whatever business you do, you must do it intelligently. But if you are foolishly doing something, you may be cheated. Why we are opening so many centers all over the world? We are giving opportunity, people, to come and understand about God. Why do they not come here? Then he can make his judgment that "Here is the genuine party." And if one accepts some cheap God, that means he has no understanding about God. He's a rascal. If I say I'm God and somebody accepts me as God, then he's a foolish man. They do not know what is meaning of God. If one wants God, he must know at least what is meant by God. Every scripture, just like in Bible it is said, "God has created this universe." So if you come to me and accept me as God, why don't you test whether I have created another universe like this? Why you accept a cheap God who hasn't done anything? Simply he's bluff, and he says that "I am God." So why do you accept as God? Hmm? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I was going to get you a fan, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for the flies. That would be nice. Hari-śauri: There's no fan here. Prabhupāda: Why should we accept a cheap God? Everything requires intelligence. If you are not intelligent, then every transaction you may be cheated. Everyone has heard "God is great." So great means there should be nobody equal to Him and nobody greater than Him. That is greatness. So test that man whether he has no competitor, another God. Nowadays there are so many Gods. So God is great, why there is another competitor? This is intelligence. Devotee (1): Prabhupāda? Can one make progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, whatever we are talking you should understand, then bring another question. Don't puzzle. One question decide. Don't make it whimsical dictionary. Then it is not good. First of all decide one question clearly. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: So the bona fide guru does not claim to be God, but he gives knowledge of God, and he only deals with God. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is bona fide guru . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A very common occurrence in the Western countries, they say that anyone can be guru . In fact, one Westerner who went to India and came back—he's very popular in the United States today—he says that everyone is guru and everyone is God. Prabhupāda: And people accept that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. People are accepting. Prabhupāda: Now you discuss this point. Discuss this point. *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Prabhupāda: No, first of all, you discuss this point, everyone is God and everyone is guru . Devotee (2): Only if one hears from the right authority can one be guru. Has to be . . . spiritual knowledge is descending. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The premise of the *Vedas* is that there's a creator of everything. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a creator of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Origin of everything. The premise of these so*-called spiritual masters . . . Prabhupāda: No, this is a common sense. If everyone is God, then what is the necessity of finding out a guru ? Guru means who explains about God. Everyone is God, then what is the use of explanation? There is no need of guru . Devotee (2): How can God be controlled by His own energy, illusory energy? Prabhupāda: So many things. Foolish men can accept that "Everyone is God, everyone is guru ." That is foolish man's proposition and accepted by fools. Devotee (2): It is explained in Back to Godhead magazine that a person who teaches how to serve Kṛṣṇa, how to serve God, is guru . Someone tells you that he is guru . . . (indistinct) . . . a dog. Back to Godhead magazine explains. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So to accept a spiritual master must mean that one is in ignorance and one is enlightened. Prabhupāda: For ignorance there is no need of guru . An ignorance cannot inquire about God. Intelligent man can inquire about God. Guest: We have to pick up our children . . . (indistinct) . . . thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Pick up children from a school? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From somewhere. Prabhupāda: Do you know him? Devotee (2): They're from Wheeling. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Once you said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, "If you are God, what will you do when I kick on your face?" Because if God is creating the sun, such a great planet in the sky, thousands of tons of energy, so if they are the source of the sun, but "What can they do if I kick in their face? Nothing. So how is that God?" Kṛṣṇa, when . . . someone was . . . Paundraka, he was saying he was God. He said, "All right, hold My cakra." And He took off his head. So to these false Gods we can say, "What will you do if we kick you in the face? You cannot save yourself." Prabhupāda: That is the proper treatment. (laughter) *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is one common philosophy also held by a lot of religious groups that God can be understood directly from within, and that no guru or spiritual master is necessary. That if I desire to approach God, and if He's all*-powerful, He can instruct me from within. They feel like this. Therefore they dispute our claim that we understand God in a different way, that you need a genuine spiritual master. And yet when we approach them, one man will say he has God within his heart and he understands God in this way, and another man is receiving instruction from God from within the heart, and yet he's saying another thing. Prabhupāda: So? Devotee (2): Yet they continue to claim like that, so . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, when God teaches Arjuna . . . his realization from within should be the same as Kṛṣṇa is teaching to Arjuna. It should be confirmed by śāstra. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He was saying that these people say, "God is instructing me from within," but they all have different philosophies. Prabhupāda: But he's a rascal, and who accepts him, he's a rascal. How do you think that God is speaking to him? How do you accept it? How do you accept that God is speaking to him? Devotee (2): Well, I don't accept it. Prabhupāda: But you are advocating. Why do you accept this? Devotee (2): He would say that he has turned his . . . Prabhupāda: He would say, but you must know that he's talking foolish. How God can talk with him? What is the condition? Therefore you have to read books. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). *Prabhupāda: No. God talks with whom? That is said. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānaṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10). Those who have already become devotee of God and engaged in His service, He talks with him. Not he's a third-class fool. He doesn't talk with him. It is clearly stated, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām , one who is twenty-four-hours engaged in the service of the Lord, with love and faith, God talks with him. That is clearly stated. How do you understand that God is talking with him, a rascal fool, who has no business with God? God talks with devotee, very sincere devotee who is already engaged in God's service. He talks with him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But then he might say, "But I love God." *Prabhupāda: He might say, that is another thing. The standard is this. He may say—he's a rascal, he can say so many nonsense things. That is not the standard. He says that "God is talking with me." So I have to see whether he's a candidate with whom God can talk. The formula is teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10): "One who is twenty-four-hours engaged in My service with love and faith," God talks with him. So first of all see whether he's twenty-four-hours engaged in God's service with love and faith. Then you can understand, "Yes, God is talking with him." But he has no preliminary qualification, if he says, "I can talk with God," he's a nonsense. That means because you are a nonsense, you are talking about him that God talks with him. You do not know with whom God talks. So you are nonsense also. You accept him, "Yes, he may be talking with God." How he can talk? That means you are also nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks. Why do you accept such proposition? If some storekeeper says that "I have passed M.A., L.L.D.," and I have to accept that? You must know with whom God talks. That means you are nonsense. You are accepting nonsensically. And a person who is constantly engaged in God's service, unless he's trained up by a spiritual master, how can he be engaged? So without spiritual master, one cannot be engaged in devotional service; and without devotional service, nobody's eligible to talk with God. So that nonsense talking, that without spiritual master God talking, and he has become perfect, this is all nonsense. One who believes, he is also nonsense. He does not know God. To raise such question means nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks; therefore you have brought this question. Otherwise, you would have kicked immediately. It is impossible. What do you think? Devotee (2): I understand what you are saying. Prabhupāda: Then why do you raise this question? Devotee (2): It's a matter of argument also. Prabhupāda: Argument? Why do you bring such nonsense argument, waste time? Don't waste time. You are ignorant, you are accepting. Don't remain ignorant. It is common sense. Is it so easy that one can talk with God? If some common man says, "Just now I went to Mr. Ford and talked with him. I'm coming back from him," so any gentleman will believe that? So these are our insufficiency, that we believe such thing. We are not properly trained up. Simply waste time. That's not good. He may talk nonsense; why I shall accept nonsense? The same example: If somebody comes, "Now I'm just coming from talking with Mr. Ford, the President," shall I have to believe? If he's a common man, how he can talk with President Ford? If I believe, then I am also nonsense. Where is that? Hari-śauri: We don't have a fan in here . . . I have go somewhere else. I have to bring a fan from somewhere else. *Prabhupāda: No, no, bring, you can bring some soft cloth. Why this is? You bring some soft cloth. So don't indulge such nonsense question. You must personally understand. That is knowledge. If you are reading Bhagavad*-gītā , how you can accept nonsense, he says that "I can talk with Kṛṣṇa without spiritual master"? It is absurd proposition. So why you should accept such absurd proposition unless you are also another absurd? If you knew that it is not possible, you, "You rascal." Don't talk with him. Don't waste time. But you also do not know with whom God talks. Clearly stated. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ (BG 10.10). Teṣām evānukampārtham (BG 10.11). Why don't you read all these proposals? With whom God talks? Hmm? Why did you not? Devotee (2): I'm familiar with those verses. *Prabhupāda: Then why did you not say that "God talks with such*-and-such person, but you are not such and such. Why you are talking nonsense? That means you are cheating. But you cannot cheat me. I know." So you must know. You must know with whom God talks. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, does this mean that we should not speak with those who ask such questions? Prabhupāda: But you must know how to answer it! Otherwise, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why there are so many books? You do not read it; you do not know how to answer it even. That means you do not read. If you knew that God does not speak with rascals or anyone ordinary, then you would have immediately replied, "God does not speak to you. It is not possible. It requires qualification." Why should you believe it and waste your time? Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu prays that one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige. How do we lose that desire for false prestige? Prabhupāda: Answer him. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Desire for false prestige? First of all, ceto*-darpana-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). The heart is full of so many dirty things, and basically all of these revolve around the bodily concept of life—I think I'm this body. Therefore we're desiring honor, we don't like to be dishonored; and looking for so many gains, we don't like to lose something. So there are so many dualities that exist: respect and disrespect, honor and dishonor. So when you become purified, freed from the bodily concept of life by chanting, then naturally honor and dishonor, they are not very important; they are only in relationship to the body. Prabhupāda: (aside) Come nearer. Yes. Now argue, whether you are satisfied with his answer. If not, say it. In this way, discuss. Are you satisfied with his answer? Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it says that the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta is the postgraduate study for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Hmm, hear him. What does he say? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the postgraduate study . . . *Devotees: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , postgraduate study. *Kulaśekhara: So if we're very attracted to reading Caitanya*-caritāmṛta now, but we haven't finished Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , is that good? Or should we wait until we have studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam thoroughly? *Prabhupāda: It does not mean that one who is not postgraduate, he cannot read other books. Spiritual life is not a stereotype like that. But one who is not postgraduate, it is little difficult for him to understand the statement of . . . just like in the beginning of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said, na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāj jagati para-tattvaṁ param iha (CC Adi 1.3), that there is no superior truth than Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So if you have not studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , you'll not understand this statement. If you understand, "Yes, Caitanya is the Supreme Truth," then it is to be understood that you have graduated. And if you are not, then it will be difficult for you to understand. *Kulaśekhara: Then the more we understand Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , the more we'll understand the Caitanya-caritāmṛta . *Prabhupāda: Yes, and if you understood Bhāgavatam thoroughly, then you can understand Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . But if you have not understood Bhāgavatam , then you cannot understand Caitanya-caritāmṛta . The simple statement, na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāt para-tattvaṁ param iha . Where is Caitanya-caritāmṛta ? Bring. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Which volume, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: First volume. That means you are not reading, you simply are referring. This is the difficulty. Without thoroughly reading something, we bring so many questions. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore forbidden, bahu śāstra nā pore . Don't bother yourself reading so many books at a time. You'll be puzzled. Find out this verse, yad advaitaṁ brahmopaniṣadi tad apy asya tanu*-bhā . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't believe there's an index in this first volume. Prabhupāda: In the first chapter you'll find. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: In the first seventeen verses, "What is described in the *Upaniṣads* . . ." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yad advaita . . . *Prabhupāda: Yad advaitaṁ brahma*-upaniṣadi . Go, find out. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "What the *Upaniṣads* describe as the impersonal Brahman is but the effulgence of His body, and the Lord known as the Supersoul is but His localized plenary portion. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa Himself, full with six opulences. He is the Absolute Truth, and no other truth is greater than or equal to Him." *Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . So will anyone be able to understand this verse? Hmm? Everything is stated there, what is Caitanya. Will everyone be able to understand it? That is the proof that he's not graduate. If he is graduate, then he should understand. Therefore it is postgraduate. *Kulādri: One must understand Bhagavad*-gītā before Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam ? *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is stated there, yad advaitaṁ brahma upaniṣadi . That means he must understand the Upaniṣads . He must understand what is Brahman. So without understanding this, how he can understand Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ? It will be explained there, but the fact is this. What is that? Is there any explanation? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, no purport to this verse. Prabhupāda: So further on there is explanation. Find out that. *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? How does one know when he has the understanding of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: What does he say? Answer him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What did you say? *Devotee (2): How does one know when he has the understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One has understood Bhagavad*-gītā who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, because Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), that "The essence of all knowledge is to surrender unto Me, to give up all other duties." So one who takes that instruction as life and soul, he has understood Bhagavad-gītā . Is that all right? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same verse again in the Second Chapter. (break) "The *Upaniṣads* , which are considered the most elevated portion of the Vedic literatures, are meant for persons who desire to get free from material association and who therefore approach a bona fide spiritual master for enlightenment. The prefix upa indicates that one must receive knowledge about the Absolute Truth from a spiritual master. One who has faith in his spiritual master actually receives transcendental instruction, and as his attachment for material life slackens, he is able to advance on the spiritual path. Knowledge of the transcendental science of the *Upaniṣads* . . ." Prabhupāda: Where is that boy? You are hearing? Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Knowledge of the transcendental science of the *Upaniṣads* can free one from the entanglement of existence in the material world, and when thus liberated, one can be elevated to the spiritual kingdom of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by advancement in spiritual life. *"The beginning of spiritual enlightenment is realization of impersonal Brahman. Such realization is effected by gradual negation of material variegatedness. Impersonal Brahman realization is the partial, distant experience of the Absolute Truth that one achieves through the rational approach. It is compared to one's seeing a hill from a distance and taking it to be a smoky cloud. A hill is not a smoky cloud, but it appears to be one from a distance because of our imperfect vision. In imperfect or smoky realization of the Absolute Truth, spiritual variegatedness is conspicuous by its absence. This experience is therefore called advaita*-vāda , or realization of the oneness of the Absolute. *"The impersonal glowing effulgence of Brahman consists only of the personal bodily rays of the Supreme Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Since Śrī Gaurasundara, or Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, is identical with Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself, the Brahman effulgence consists of the rays of His transcendental body. Similarly, the Supersoul, which is called the Paramātmā, is a plenary representation of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The antaryāmi , the Supersoul in everyone's heart, is the controller of all living entities. This is confirmed in Bhagavad*-gītā , wherein Lord Kṛṣṇa says, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ : "I am situated in everyone's heart." (BG 15.15) Bhagavad-gītā also states, Fifth Chapter, twenty-ninth verse, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29), indicating that the Supreme Lord, acting in His expansion as the Supersoul, is the proprietor of everything. Similarly, the Brahma-saṁhitā states, aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35): the Lord is present everywhere, within the heart of every living entity and within each and every atom as well. Thus by this Supersoul feature the Lord is all-pervading. "Furthermore, Lord Caitanya is also the master of all wealth, strength, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation because He is Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself. He is described as pūrṇa , or complete. In the feature of Lord Caitanya, the Lord is an ideal renouncer, just as Śrī Rāma was an ideal king. He accepted the order of sannyāsa and exemplified exceedingly wonderful principles in His own life. No one can compare to Him in the order of sannyāsa ." Prabhupāda: (aside) Not like that. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Although in Kali*-yuga acceptance of the sannyāsa order is generally forbidden, Lord Caitanya accepted it . . ." Prabhupāda: (aside) On the head. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ". . . because He is complete in renunciation. Others cannot imitate Him but can only follow in His footsteps as far as possible. Those who are unfit for this order of life are strictly forbidden by the injunctions of the śāstras to accept it. Lord Caitanya, however, is complete in renunciation as well as all other opulences. He is therefore the highest principle of the Absolute Truth. By an analytical study of the truth of Lord Caitanya, one will find that He is not different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. No one is greater than or even equal to Him. In Bhagavad*-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): 'O conqueror of wealth (Arjuna), there is no truth superior to Me.' Thus it is here confirmed that there is no truth higher than Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. *"The impersonal Brahman is the goal of those who cultivate the study of books of transcendental knowledge, and the Supersoul is the goal of those who perform the yoga practices. One who knows the Supreme Personality of Godhead surpasses realization of both Brahman and Paramātmā, because Bhagavān is the ultimate platform of absolute knowledge. The Personality of Godhead is the complete form of sac*-cidananda (full life, knowledge and bliss). By realization of the sat portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited existence), one realizes the impersonal Brahman of the Lord. By realization of the cit portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited knowledge), one can realize the localized aspect of the Lord, Paramātmā. But neither of these partial realizations of the Complete Whole can help one realize ānanda , or complete bliss. Without such realization of ānanda , knowledge of the Absolute Truth is incomplete. *"This verse of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta by Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī is confirmed by a parallel statement in the Tattva-sandarbha by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī. In the Eighth Part of Tattva-sandarbha it is said that the Absolute Truth is sometimes approached as impersonal Brahman, which, although spiritual, is only a partial representation of the Absolute Truth. Nārāyaṇa, the predominating Deity in Vaikuṇṭha, is to be known as an expansion of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, but Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Absolute Truth, the object of the transcendental love of all living entities." Prabhupāda: So is it clear? (laughs) It is not so easy. (laughter) Therefore it is postgraduate. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can these things be understood theoretically, Śrīla Prabhupāda, or is realization required? Prabhupāda: Realization required. What is the use of theoretical knowledge? Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, can realization be had through service without theoretical understanding? *Prabhupāda: This whole science is understood through service only. Everything becomes revealed. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). Revelation. Everything is revelation. Unless one is very sincere servant, there is no revelation. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it described a gradual process of realizing Kṛṣṇa, but does the devotee go through these levels of understanding Brahman then Paramātmā then Bhagavān? Prabhupāda: Hmm? (microphone moving) Dhṛṣṭadyumna: It was described how the levels of understanding the Absolute—Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Does the devotee gradually go through these levels, or does he immediately realize Brahman when his service is perfect? Prabhupāda: That depends on his capacity. (aside) Just on the head do it. Devotee (2): Mahārāja Kīrtanānanda said that our actual realization comes through our actions. So we are, in building this New Vrindavan, we are actually . . . this is taken to be our preaching, or our life and soul. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: What is your question? Devotee (2): My question is how do we . . . Devotee (3): Prabhupāda, his question is will one become realized by continually engaging in devotional service under the direction of a bona fide representative of the spiritual master? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The question is that his service is here in New Vrindavan under Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Will serving the representative of the spiritual master . . . is that as good as serving the spiritual master? Will it get the same result? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that was the question. No? At least, I understand the question to be: Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: That is the Absolute Truth. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Absolute means there is no difference. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's service, the same. So discuss it further. Devotee: Is that to say that if one— brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11)—that if one simply goes on serving, engaging in all sorts of different activities for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, but he never, in this lifetime at least, has realization of Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān . . .? *Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Everything is explained. By seeing the sun one can understand the sunshine, the sun globe and the sun*-god. There are three things. Within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke to Vivasvata." So there is a person Vivasvata, and the globe is there, we see, and the sunshine is there. So what is the difficulty to understand? Hmm? Three things are there. The person within the sun globe, Vivasvata, is there; *otherwise how Kṛṣṇa could speak with him? He says, imaṁ vivasvate yogam : "Unto Vivasvata I spoke." So there is a person. And we can see the globe, and we can see the sunshine. Is there any difficulty? So similarly, the Brahman is the sunshine, light, and Paramātmā is the sun globe, and Bhagavān is the sun*-god. This is . . . the sun is one example. From this example we can understand the Absolute. Where is the difficulty? (aside) Sit down properly. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). As heat and light, all of them are the same . . . in the sunshine there is heat and light, in the sun globe there is heat and light, and within the sun globe there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. You can tolerate the heat and light of the sunshine, but if you go to the sun globe you'll be finished. Temperature's so high, it requires a special qualification. Similarly, from heat and light point of view, Brahman, Paramātmā, Bhagavān, the same. Everywhere there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. So one who understands Brahman, he cannot understand Paramātmā. He understands, but not as thoroughly. Similarly, one who understands Paramātmā, he can understand Bhagavān. But if you understand Bhagavān, then you understand Paramātmā, Brahman, everything. Kulaśekhara: So we should simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Try to understand everything, but understanding Kṛṣṇa, you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam eva vijñātaṁ bhavanti (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). And because you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore you do not understand Brahman, you do not understand Paramātmā. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then it is automatically understood. We have not understood Brahman, Paramātmā, because we have not understood Kṛṣṇa properly. Kṛṣṇa says, aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "I am the source of everything." So Brahman is also from Kṛṣṇa, Paramātmā is also from Kṛṣṇa. And so other Bhagavāns—there are so many Bhagavāns also—they are from Kṛṣṇa. *So if you understand Kṛṣṇa you can understand everything. And as soon as you say that you have not understood it, therefore you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. They cannot understand. Just like Māyāvādīs, they do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore they do not understand Brahman also. And therefore they fall down, because they have not understood either Brahman or Kṛṣṇa. Patanty adhaḥ . This is stated in the śāstra . Anādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32), because they have not understood Kṛṣṇa, even they have gone up to the Brahman, they cannot stand there; they fall down. Again they come to the material world. The Māyāvādīs, they say, brahma satyma jagan mithyā : "Brahman is truth, and this material world is false." They take sannyāsa , but after some time they fall down, again take to other businesses than Brahman in the material world. Just like our Vivekananda. He came to the Western countries to preach Vedānta , and he has advertised that "Whole America has become Vedāntist ." The proof of Vedānta is when he returned to India he became very enthusiastic to open hospitals, like the Christian missionaries. So if the material world is false, so why he's trying to open hospital? Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . Jagat is mithyā . So why in the mithyā platform he's taking credit by opening hospital? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, as long as people are suffering, they can't realize that they are God. Prabhupāda: So you cannot stop the suffering. You are unable. You are also suffering from the same disease. So don't say that jagat mithyā . If they are suffering, that's a fact. Then how do you say it is mithyā , it is false? If it is mithyā , then why you are affected by the suffering? There are so many questions. That means not realization. Contradictory. If you feel the suffering, then why you call it mithyā ? It is fact. Why do you say it is mithyā ? That means you have no realization. You are accepting suffering as mithyā . We say suffering is not mithyā; it is fact. But if you want to save from suffering, then you get out of this material world. We don't say that, that suffering is mithyā or this world is mithyā . We don't say that. We are offering this flower to Kṛṣṇa, not as mithyā; *it is a means of service. Why shall I say it is mithyā ? By offering . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26): by offering a little flower. How can I say this is mithyā ? Māyāvādīs' philosophy, it is mithyā . With mithyā we can approach the satya ? By hundreds of false we can make one truth? Kṛṣṇa says that "If you offer Me a little flower," so how can I say this is mithyā ? It is not mithyā . It is satya . When it is satya ? When it is offered to Kṛṣṇa. And when you take it for your sense gratification, that is mithyā . That is mithyā . You cannot enjoy it. If you enjoy it, then go to hell. If you offer it to Kṛṣṇa, you go to Him. So how can I say it is mithyā ? You cannot approach Kṛṣṇa with something mithyā . Then Kṛṣṇa becomes mithyā . There are so many things to be studied. We don't say like that. We find there is relationship of Kṛṣṇa with everything. When we find this beautiful rose, we find the intelligence of Kṛṣṇa. By Kṛṣṇa's intelligence it has come out so nice, fragrant, beautiful. They say it is made by nature. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). So under Kṛṣṇa's direction nature has made it so beautiful. That is a fact. Therefore I find there is hand of Kṛṣṇa in this flower. So Kṛṣṇa has made this; this is Kṛṣṇa's property; it should be offered to Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti. We are not offering something mithyā to Kṛṣṇa. It is fact. It is made by Kṛṣṇa. If you say, "No, no, I don't touch this flower," so what is credit there? You have not prepared it. You touch or not touch, it doesn't matter. If you say, "No, no, it is material. I don't touch it," you may not touch it, but you do not know it is not material, it is spiritual, it is made by Kṛṣṇa. So you have to study deeply. Everything is . . . ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the source of everything." So the flower is also from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), from whom everything is emanating. The flower is also within the everything. How can I say it is false? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kulādri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said we can't understand Brahman unless we understand Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real understanding. And without Kṛṣṇa, if you understand brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , then you fall down. Kulādri: But it seems, then, you have to come to the full understanding before it does any good. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means those who are simply trying to understand Brahman, they are not understanding. Kulādri: Then what does it mean, gradual process, gradual advancement in transcendental realization? Prabhupāda: Gradual process, just like you are here in the sunshine. So if you are intelligent, you'll understand that the temperature in the sunshine and the temperature in the sun globe is different. So Brahman understanding is the lowest stage. Paramātmā understanding little higher. And Bhagavān understanding is complete. That is gradual. And these Māyāvādīs, they do not try to understand Kṛṣṇa. They are satisfied only with understanding Brahman. Therefore they fall down. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta (SB 10.2.32). Because there is no standing. The impersonal feature, that the sky . . . go very high in the sky, you do not see anymore this planet earth, neither you see anything, you'll be mad. Then you will find out how to go back again. You cannot stay there in that condition. Although they say " so'ham ," no, you cannot stay there. Just imagine, if you go very high and you do not see any other thing, only sky, will you be able to stay in that condition? You go in the sea. When you do not find anything, all water, you become very much anxious, "Where is land? Where is land?" And as soon as you have a glimpse of land, island, you become very, "Oh, there is land." So this is impersonal understanding. It is simply imagination, that simply by Brahman understanding he'll be happy. No, that is not possible. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, then even Brahman has to be understood in relationship to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (1): Even Brahman has to be understood . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real understanding. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham (BG 14.27). Prabhupāda: Hmm. Now wherefrom this fragrance have come? Devotees: From the earth. Prabhupāda: Get out this fragrance from earth, you scientist. By Kṛṣṇa's manipulation here is fragrance. Everyone knows it has come from earth. If there is, in the earth, there is no such fragrance, wherefrom it came? So therefore it is there, it is understood, but you get it out. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, we can take the chemicals and mix them, produce fragrance. Prabhupāda: Take the chemicals? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. We can analyze the chemical structure and make . . . *Prabhupāda: No, the flower has taken directly, without any chemical addition. You do that. It is a fact, the flavor is there within the earth. You take the flavor, extract the flavor. Not only this flavor, there are different flavors, all, everything there. There are so many flowers coming out. Huh? Sarva*-kāma dugha-mahī (SB 1.10.4). Mahī means earth. Everything's coming out from the earth. But not in your attempt. It is Kṛṣṇa's attempt that He can take out. Out of so many different flavors, everything is there within the earth, but Kṛṣṇa's manipulation takes the different colors, different flavors, different bodies, everything. That is Kṛṣṇa's manipulation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10). Just like in our kitchen we have got the ingredients, rice, ḍāl , āṭṭā , ghee . But the expert can prepare hundreds of preparations. That expert is Kṛṣṇa. And if one is not expert, even the ingredients are there, he'll spoil everything. He'll mix the āṭṭā with water then put ghee and then put rice. (laughter) This is the . . . we have to become expert. If you become expert, then you'll do very nice purī , ḍāl , rice . . . (indistinct) . . . there are so many varieties. You enjoy. And if you are not expert, you'll spoil. So Kṛṣṇa is expert and Kṛṣṇa bhakta is expert, because he takes lesson from Kṛṣṇa. So for them this is not mithyā . Rascals who spoil it, they think it is mithyā . He could not do anything. He mix with a conglomeration, and because he could not get any result, he said mithyā . Disappointment. And one who knows, he knows how to utilize it. Just like we are utilizing the cows in so many nice preparations, and these rascal killing them. Finished. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And then they want to say that this is mithyā , that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is mithyā . Prabhupāda: Whatever they say, practically see. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. They do not know how to use the cow, only kill. Devotee (4): You said that is the sour grape philosophy. Prabhupāda: Grape philosophy? What is that? Hari-śauri: Sour grapes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The fox . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: . . . wanted to taste the grapes, but he couldn't, so he said they are no good. *Prabhupāda: You do not know expert. So if we remain under the guidance of Kṛṣṇa, then we also become expert to some extent. And Kṛṣṇa's expertly service or intelligence we can see in the flower, so many flowers. So why shall I not take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66)? That is intelligence. That is intelligence. We see Kṛṣṇa's expertly manipulation. So if we take Kṛṣṇa's shelter, at least we shall get little intelligence. Dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam (BG 10.10): "He gets the intelligence directly from Me." And that is wanted. Why it is foolishly dealing with this rice, ḍāl , and make spoil everything? Be little expert from Kṛṣṇa's instructions and make everything nice. Kṛṣṇa personally teaches how to deal with cows. He never showed the example of killing the cows. He maintained the cows, the calf. He was distributing butter even to the monkeys. And the pasturing ground became muddy on account of milk dropping from the bags. This is Kṛṣṇa. And He is personally taking care. So why the Kṛṣṇa's devotees should not do it? Give protection to the cows and utilize the milk. That is one of the item of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not keeping hogs and dogs; we are keeping cows, because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa did not keep so many dogs, as nowadays so many big, big men, they are keeping dogs. Kṛṣṇa did not do so. If we follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then we are perfect. Practical example. We have not invent. If we simply follow what Kṛṣṇa has instructed us, then we become perfect. Devotee (5): How can we perfectly follow only what Kṛṣṇa has said? The other evening you said that the patient, he is always a fool and a rascal. Prabhupāda: Answer him. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But one should not remain a fool and a rascal. If the doctor has given the formula, you have to follow it. He says "Don't eat this but stay in bed, sleep so much," you have to do it, otherwise you will stay sick. Prabhupāda: You'll remain a rascal if you don't follow the instruction. So what do you want? You remain a rascal or make advance? What you want? Huh? Devotee (5): To become advanced. Prabhupāda: Then follow. If you willfully remain a rascal, that is the difference. Otherwise, if you follow you'll become advanced. Everywhere you'll find Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. He says mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10). They explain, "Nature." But they cannot explain what is nature. We can explain. Nature is a system which is being handled by Kṛṣṇa. That is real understanding. Nature, we can see that from nature this flower is coming, this flower is coming. But why not . . .? They say accidentally. If it is accident, why in the plant of this flower sometimes rose is not coming accidentally? And why from the rose plant not accidentally this flower is coming? So where is the question of accident? You have never experienced such accident. The same plant, the same flower is coming. Where is a proof by accident another flower has come? Where is the proof? So why do they say like that, "accident"? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Because they don't want to accept God. Prabhupāda: No, no, accept God or not, where the accident theory comes? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well if they don't give some explanation, then they'll be considered fools. *Prabhupāda: Some explanation, they have to give you something foolish explanation? So foolish man will accept that, not a sane man. If you say "by accident," then I'll say why not accident in the history of the world there is a rose plant some other flower has come out? If man has come from monkey, why not coming now? So they give so many foolish propositions, only fools will accept. Anyone who has a little reasoning power they will not . . . they'll understand that these are all crazy fellows, talking all nonsense. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ (SB 5.18.12). We have got little formula to understand that if one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious he has no good qualifications. He cannot say anything as a qualified person. That is the test. Mūḍha . Immediately take: a mūḍha . Let the mūḍhas speak all nonsense. Why should we waste our time? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As soon as we find somebody not Kṛṣṇa conscious, not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, we take, reject. He's a rascal, that's all. And he is rascal. Not only blindly we are rejecting, but with reason. (break) So one learned brāhmaṇa , he said, "All right sir, namaskār your Kṛṣṇa. I cannot believe all these things." And the cobbler, he began to cry: "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is so great, He can do anything." So he, Nārada Muni asked, he saw the learned brāhmaṇa refused to accept, and this cobbler is so absorbed that he's crying, "Ah, Kṛṣṇa can do anything." So he asked him, "Do you believe this?" "Yes, why not?" "So how do you believe it?" "Now I'm sitting under this banyan tree, and so many banyan fruits are falling down, and I can see there are hundreds and thousands of seeds within the fig, and each seed contains a banyan tree. So why can I not believe? If within this seed a big banyan tree can be kept, what is the difficulty for Kṛṣṇa to pull the elephant through the hole of a needle?" He has got reason. He is not blindly believing. How the scientist, who does not believe in God, he can explain that within the small seed there is a big banyan tree? Let them do that. By chemical composition make little seed. As I told, make little egg. They cannot do anything. Still they are so proud. *Dhrstadyumna: Yesterday we read, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that these are the qualities of the demon, that arrogance and pride, and their philosophy is there is no God in control. Kṛṣṇa said in Bhagavad*-gītā . *Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in that story, the cobbler actually was more advanced than the brāhmaṇa , and yet in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that "Anyone can approach Me, even the strī śūdra dvija-bandhu ," they can all approach the supreme destination. Then in the next verse He says, "How much greater, then, are the brāhmaṇas , the righteous, the devotees, the saintly kings." I was wondering how are they greater? Prabhupāda: You do not understand it? Devotee (1): I do not understand how they are greater than the lower person who surrenders. Prabhupāda: Suppose you have got your spiritual master and you, if somebody says that you can come into the . . . any one of you can come in this car. So spiritual master goes, you also go. Does it mean that spiritual master is not greater than you? Do you think like that? Devotee (1): No. Prabhupāda: Then? It is the same thing. Suppose Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja has brought this car, so he says, "All of you can come." So I go, you go. Does it mean that you and your spiritual master is equal? Do you think like that? It is same thing. Everyone can go to Godhead, there is no doubt, but still there is difference between brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , śūdra . So far going into the car, the equal right is there, but it does not mean that your spiritual master or the next group, they are not greater than you. Don't think like that. The same car, so Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is driving, I am also there, you are also there. Does it mean that we are all equal? There must be gradation. The right is given to everyone. It does not mean that immediately they become all one. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He accepted everyone, "Come on." But the distinction is there. We are inviting everyone to partake Kṛṣṇa prasādam . That does not mean that immediately all of them have become of the equal rank. (pause) Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was so kind, but still there was distinction. When He was taking prasādam , personal associates, they were sitting with Him. Is it not? So this is called maryādā . Maryādā means "honor." That must . . . that varieties must be there. Otherwise we become Māyāvādīs—everything is equal, all one. This is Māyāvāda philosophy. No varieties. There must be variety. That is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And as soon as you make it varietyless, all equal, that is Māyāvāda . Just see even in this flower. This is also flower and this is also flower. Does it mean they are of the same rank? This is understanding. Together they look very beautiful, but if you take separate value, then it is valuable than this flower. That distinction must be there. If somebody says, "I am accepting even the leaf in this garland," then what to speak of rose? It is like that. Kṛṣṇa says that. That does not mean leaf and rose have the same value. One is making a beautiful garland: I am accepting everything. Mixed together it looks very nice, but individually the leaf has value, the rose has value, the flower has value. Not that because they are put together they have equal value. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Kulādri: In a democracy they say everyone is . . . Prabhupāda: Nonsense democracy. What is . . .? Don't talk of this nonsense talk. (laughter) Democracy, communism, still there are varieties. But you make a president. Let everyone become president. Kulādri: That's what they've done, now the śūdras . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: They have not done. Has everyone got the president's power? How do they say that you have done? Everyone equal? That is not possible. These are imagination. Mano*-rathenasato dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). Everything is there in the Bhāgavatam . Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ (SB 5.18.12). These rascals who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they have no value. They are simply speculating within the mind, mano-rathena, and they'll act all abominable, because they are on the mental platform. I'll say, "I think like this," you'll say, "I think like this." And nobody, none of us perfect. Then what is the use of your thinking like this or thinking like that? Both of them are imperfect. So if so many rascals sit together, or dogs, they simply bark, that's all. It has no value. So our propaganda is that "Don't remain in the dog platform. Come to the human platform." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There you will get, "If we all dogs meet together and pass a resolution, then it will be organized." That is democracy. Democracy means like that. The dog is kept as dog, and they are assembled together to take their votes. What is the value of their vote? They are dogs. I've publicly said this. Where? Devotees: Melbourne. Prabhupāda: Melbourne. The United Nation is an assembly of barking dogs, I've said that, (laughs) and they published it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "His Divine Grace has come to hound us." *Devotee (2): There is a so*-called spiritual master, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who is giving meditation courses to them. Prabhupāda: That is another cheating. In meditation,whatever nonsense they are doing, you don't know, nobody knows. That's all. Bhava satrugna . "If you become dumb, you have no enemy." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate . "A rascal is beautiful so long he does not speak." So better meditation; don't speak. Nobody will detect you. This is going on. If you speak, then you'll be detected what you are. And if you sleep by posing meditation, then nobody will ask, "What you are doing, nonsense?" This is meditation. Meditation is another cheating. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja has detected. Hmm? Find out this verse, Seventh Canto. Hari-śauri: This Śrī Chinmoy is supposed to be this resident guru at the United Nations . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever he may be, but we have got our own formula to understand. *Hari-śauri: He did a practical demonstration of what he said a person who is in touch with God can be capable of doing if he allows himself to become an instrument of God. So for eight months he painted continually, and he produced 27,000 paintings, and he said that this was proof that he was God*-realized. Prabhupāda: Mauna . The word begins with mauna . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maunam , like in "silence." Mauna*-vrata-śruta-tapo-adhyayana ? *"O Supreme Personality of Godhead, there are ten prescribed methods on the path to liberation—to remain silent, not to speak to anyone, to observe vows, to amass all kinds of Vedic knowledge, to undergo austerities, to study the Vedas and other Vedic literatures, to execute the duties of varṇāśrama*-dharma , to explain the śāstras , to stay in a solitary place, to chant mantras silently and to be absorbed in trance. These different methods for liberation are generally only a professional practice and means of livelihood . . ." Prabhupāda: Means of livelihood. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ". . . means of livelihood for those who have not conquered their senses. Because such persons are falsely proud, these procedures may not be successful." Prabhupāda: You can get some prestigious position from another rascal, but that will not solve the problem. What is the purport there? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: "As stated in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam (SB 6.1.15): *"Only a rare person who has adopted complete, unalloyed devotional service to Kṛṣṇa can uproot the weeds of sinful actions with no possibility that they will revive. He can do this simply by discharging devotional service, just as the sun can immediately dissipate fog by its rays." The real purpose of human life is to attain liberation from material entanglement. Such liberation may be achieved by many methods - tapasa brahmacāryeṇa śamena ca damena ca (SB 6.1.13) - but all of them more or less depend on tapasya , austerity, which begins with celibacy. Śukadeva Gosvāmī says that those who are vāsudeva*-parāyaṇa , who have fully surrendered to the lotus feet of Lord Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, automatically achieve the results of mauna (silence), vrata (vows), and other such methods, simply by discharging devotional service." *Prabhupāda: Take, for example, mauna . Mauna means don't talk rubbish. It is better not to talk than to talk foolish. So mauna is meant for them who cannot talk about Kṛṣṇa. Better stop talking. Mauna*-vrata . Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa, he'll talk all nonsense. So sometimes the spiritual master says that "You remain silent for twelve years." So (laughter) instead of talking nonsense, you remain silent for twelve years. That is mauna . Because as soon as you'll talk, you'll be captured where you are. Better not to talk. This is mauna-vrata . But one who is devotee, why he'll not . . .? He'll talk about Kṛṣṇa. Vācāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane (SB 9.4.18). Always talking about Kṛṣṇa. Why he should be silent? If he remains silent, then people will not get the benefit. Let him speak always of Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that. Y āre dekha , tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): whomever you meet, you simply talk about Kṛṣṇa, what He has taught in the Bhagavad-gītā , you become guru. So why guru will stop? Guru will speak. But what kind of speaking? What Kṛṣṇa has spoken. Not nonsense. Not like that: "I have painted so many pictures, therefore I have become God-realized." Where Bhagavān says "By painting pictures one may . . ." He does not say. Kṛṣṇa does not say. He has invented this. So therefore our test is, whether he's a bona fide guru , whether he's talking what Kṛṣṇa has said. Then he's guru . Otherwise a rascal. That's all, finished. Why should we bother? This is the test. If he's speaking, repeating the same thing, what Kṛṣṇa said, then he's guru . If he's talking something else, then he's rascal. Immediately take it. If you know this art, how to detect the rascal and guru , the test is already there. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So guru will say, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." He'll never say that "I have become Kṛṣṇa. You simply surrender to me." To surrender to Kṛṣṇa means surrender to guru also. You'll learn it. So "Kṛṣṇa is now dead; now I have become Kṛṣṇa," this is rascal, immediately. *So to test a guru and a rascal, there is no difficulty if you are well conversant with the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . There is no question. Kṛṣṇa says, ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). This confidential knowledge, what is that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66), one who is teaching this confidential knowledge—"Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa"—Kṛṣṇa says, "Ah, he is My dearmost friend." So you become dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa. Simply say what Kṛṣṇa says. Why do you speak all other nonsense things? You immediately become the dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa. And if you manufacture, then you are a rascal. Why shall I accept a rascal? We shall accept the dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa as guru . That is wanted. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, when He was asked by a gṛhastha devotee what should be the behavior of a Vaiṣṇava, He immediately said, asat-saṅga tyāga, ei vaiṣṇava ācāra (CC Madhya 22.87): "Give up the company of all rascals, asat ." Asat means those who are rascals. That is Vaiṣṇava. Do not mix with all rascals, asat . Now how shall I know who is rascal and who is not a . . .? Asat eka 'strī-saṅgī kṛṣṇa-bhakta āra . One who is too much attached with woman, he is rascal. Another rascal: who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. *So we have got everything test tube. Put the test tube and you understand. If one is strī*-saṅgī . . . strī-saṅgī means not only the man. The man or woman, one who are very much sexually attached, he is a rascal. One should give up his company. And another rascal: who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. So if you want to be a Vaiṣṇava, you must give up the company of these two rascals. Then your progress is guaranteed. Everything is there. There is no difficulty to distinguish between rascals and intelligent, guru and bluffer. Everything is there. And to become a perfect Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, asat-saṅga tyāga ei vaiṣṇava : don't talk even with these rascals. But sometimes in the preaching work we have to talk with such rascals, but not to take their theory but to teach them our theory. If you become defeated by their theory, then you are not a preacher. Don't preach; *chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You are not fit for teaching. If you become overcome by their teaching, then you are finished. A preacher is madhyama*-adhikārī , advanced devotee. He can preach. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī should be engaged in temple worship very nicely, then gradually he'll come to the madhyama-adhikārī . *So the preacher is madhyama*-adhikārī . A kaniṣṭha-adhikārī cannot become preacher. Who is in the lowest stage of devotional service, he cannot become preacher. He'll be conquered by the asat . And madhyama-adhikārī , he knows how to deal with asat . At least he does not mix with them. That's all. If he cannot defeat them, he should avoid them, because that valuable time can be utilized for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness to a person who is inquisitive to hear. Bāliśya . Bāliśya means innocent. He wants to know something about Kṛṣṇa. Better deal with him than with the rascals and waste time. Better avoid the rascals. Just like in hospital, emergency cases, the doctors, when they see that this patient hopeless, he does not take care anymore. But when there is hope, they give medicine and try to . . . the hopeless condition, better not. Don't talk with them. That's all. That is vaiṣṇava-ācāra . Then he'll remain safe. Hopeless person, don't waste your time talking with them. Īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca . Four observations. Bhagavān—īśvara; prema —love; *and prema*-maitrī , friendship with devotees; and kṛpa , mercy to the innocent person; *and upekṣā , no more talking. Don't waste time talking with all these nonsense. Better utilize, properly utilize the time by instructing a person who is innocent and eager to hear. Like that. So this mauna*-vrata-tapas-śruti . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Prabhupāda: These things are meant for ajitendriyānām , who could not control the senses. Ajitendriyānām . And who has engaged his senses in the service of the Lord, they are not ajitendriya . If you have engaged your mind in Kṛṣṇa—the mind is the king of senses—then your senses cannot be misled. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha (SB 9.4.18). Then if your mind is always in Kṛṣṇa, man-mana bhava mad bhakto , then what you'll speak except Kṛṣṇa? If you speak nonsense, that means your mind is not engaged in Kṛṣṇa. The mind is the center of all sensual activities. So if your mind is always in Kṛṣṇa, how we can talk nonsense? Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane . He'll be always engaged in talking about Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. So if we keep our mind always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there is no question of mauna , because we'll have to talk about Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I remain mauna ? If we talk about Kṛṣṇa, or what Kṛṣṇa has said, then I am benefited, and the audience, he is also benefited. Take Bhagavad-gītā and talk. So those who are Kṛṣṇa devotees, they will gladly hear. Those who are inquisitive, innocent, they'll also hear. And the dviṣāt , those who are envious, they'll go away. That's good, clear. Talk about Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. Don't talk anything else. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can we give up our enviousness and reluctance to serve the spiritual master and the other devotees? Prabhupāda: Answer him. Dhrstadyumna: One can free himself from envy by serving. You serve the devotees and follow the instruction of the spiritual master. In this way the mind becomes your best friend. *Prabhupāda: A devotee is never envious of another devotee. He is not a devotee. Tad*-adhīneṣu maitrī (SB 11.2.46). One who is devotee, we have to make friendship with them. How we can hate them? Hm. Devotees: Jaya , all glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya , haribol . (offer obeisances) ( kirtan ) (end) (Conversation After Film) Ṛṣi Kumāra: It was very beautiful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ṛṣi Kumāra: Very nice film. Very pleasing. Prabhupāda: Now make Indian Bengali edition. It will be very much appreciated in India. Yes. Is it not? Ṛṣi Kumāra: Yes, everything looks so pleasing. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will very much like this movement. Make some Hindi version, Bengali. Kīrtanānanda: I think it will be a great success in India. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kumbha*-melā we can show. You had been in Kumbha-melā? *Ṛṣi Kumāra: No, I haven't. Last time it was Kumbha*-melā, I was in Bombay. I had to do some business with books and stuff. Prabhupāda: So you begin this preaching work in India with this film. With few assistants go village to village. They'll appreciate very much. Here also they will appreciate. Hmm? What do you think? School, college, university. They'll get an idea of new life. *Kīrtanānanda: Yes. There are many colleges that give courses now in alternate life*-styles. Prabhupāda: Yes, this a . . . Kīrtanānanda: This film, they will love to show this in class. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the alternative life*-style. It is not that . . . this is the only. The other thing is fictitious. That's nice. Keep it. Any other film? No. Make similar films. And I was anxious about food preparation. That is there, already there. Kīrtanānanda: Could have been a little more, but . . . *Prabhupāda: No, it is . . . in nutshell everything is there. Our agriculture, our temple, and food growing, and everything is there. Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship. The sum and substance, everything. And you are living practically for the last . . . eight years? Here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have no difficulty. You are happy more and more. Immense land. You can come, hundreds. We can provide. There is food. There is shelter. Kīrtanānanda: They are worried that by protecting the cow it would not be economic, that they would lose. But actually we have proof—the more we protect cows, the more we gain in opulence. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: Our community is gaining in opulence. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhānyena dhanavān . If you have got grain, then you are rich. And if you have got cows, then you are rich. This is the standard of Vedic richness. Dhānyena dhanavān gavayo dhanavān . They don't say, "Keep some papers and you become rich." All rascal, one thousand dollar I promise to pay, a piece of paper. Practical. We have got enough food grain, we have got enough . . . that is richness. What is use of paper? Even gold you have got, you have to exchange. And if you have grain, immediate food. Just boil with milk, and it is nectarean, paramānna, immediately. Take some wood collected from the wood and have fire, put the milk and the grains—oh, you'll get so nice food, nutritious, full of vitamin, and so easily made. It is practical. So tasteful, so nutritious, and don't require . . . if you simply boil little milk and little grain, whole day, so much sweet rice, you take— bās . You don't require any more. And if you add little apples and fruits, oh, it is heavenly. Your whole day free from any food anxiety, and you can work. And you can work. You can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make this ideal life here. America has got good potency. We have got so much land here. We can have hundreds of New Vrindabans or farms like that. And people will be happy. And invite all the world, "Please come and live with us. Why you are suffering congestion, overpopulation? Welcome here. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Make that. Indian culture and American strength make the whole world happy. That logic even I have given? Andha*-paṅgu? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Blind and lame. *Prabhupāda: India could not improve on account of poverty—lame. And America? Blind for want of culture. So let the blind man carry the lame man on the head, and the lame man give direction that "Go this way," and he walks. So both men's work is done. There is no hampering because one is blind and one is lame. Combined together, they get the benefit. Andha*-paṅgor nyāya . *Rādhā*-vallabha: The book distributors use that example sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It works, too. Prabhupāda: Do it very sincerely. Don't spoil life. Be very sober and do this work. Whole world will be happy. After all, they are seeking after happiness. So there is happiness here. So our Ṛṣi Kumāra is very intelligent boy. He can do so many things. Don't spoil him. Whatever is done is done. Sometimes māyā is strong. He bewilders even Lord Śiva. That is . . . but Śiva immediately came to his senses—"What I am doing?" So things are going on nice. Continue this program. People will be happy. And I think America is the only place who can spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement happily for the benefit of the whole world. You have got everything sufficiently. Now get the Kṛṣṇa intelligence. Now here, in this quarter, sun also rising very nicely nowadays. Formerly it was not so bright. Due to this Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting, sun is giving light. Is it not? Kīrtanānanda: It is a fact, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: The more people will be sinful, the place will be dark with cloudy. Nature will always disturb. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān ( BG 16.19). They will not be happy. It is not possible. This is the only way to become happy. So, so far as possible, I have given you some framework. Now you fill up. Make it a nice building. Yes. All right. (devotees offer obeisances) (break) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Viśākhā was wondering who . . . if you have any idea or choice who should do the Hindi translation or Bengali translation and speaking for the film like this. Did you have anyone in particular in mind? Or inquiry should be made? Prabhupāda: It requires some professional man. Laymen cannot go with the film. Hari-śauri: It needs a trained speaker. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Needs someone who's trained to speak nicely. Prabhupāda: Anyone can do. We can do also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But it may not come out so nice. Prabhupāda: But it may not be perfect. (break) Ṛṣi Kumāra: Prabhupāda, is it all right if I remain a sannyāsī ? Prabhupāda: Stay for some time. You'll get sannyāsa . Stay for some time. Ṛṣi Kumāra: Okay. I don't want to get married. It's just being kicked by māyā . I can see that. Prabhupāda: At least you have got already experience. (laughs) Don't be misled. Stay for sometimes. You will be given sannyāsa . And now Mr. Punja, has he written any letter? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Punjasai? He wrote a letter recently. He mentioned the business about the books, that Gurukṛpā said he was supposed to some give books from Australia, and he wasn't getting them. Prabhupāda: So you can write him—note down—that "We are managing our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by GBC. We have got about twenty GBCs for looking after the whole world affair, and above the GBC, I am there, and under the GBCs there are president, treasurer, secretary in each and every center. So the president is responsible to the GBC. GBC is responsible to me. In this way we are managing. But why you are proposing a separate trustee for Fiji? We have no separate trustee till now, but if for security, if it is required, you can adopt it. So this is our management going on. Now, if you have got some new idea, so please explain to me how you want to manage. But I think Fiji temple cannot be managed in a separate idea. But still, I shall entertain if you have got some idea to manage. The deed should be given to the founder-ācārya, in the name of founder-ācārya, like 'A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Founder-Ācārya, International Society.'" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The deed? Prabhupāda: The deed, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Should be . . .? *Prabhupāda: "It cannot be dedicated to any of the office*-bearers." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's one thing . . . I wanted to ask . . . Hari-śauri: Should be in there, "Founder-Ācārya." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The deed should be . . .? I wanted to clarify that earlier this afternoon . . . *Prabhupāda: "Deed should be made in favor of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, Founder-Ācārya, International Society. But it cannot be dedicated to any office*-bearer. So I suggest that you become the president of the temple and Upendra become the secretary, and either your brother or your wife can become the treasurer. There is no need of trustees. But in any circumstances, the temple cannot be a private property in the name of ISKCON. That is not possible." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "A private property in the name of ISKCON." Prabhupāda: "If you want to keep it a private property, then the ISKCON name should not be utilized." Here you have understood that he's trying to utilize ISKCON's name . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: To collect. Prabhupāda: . . . to collect, and he'll be keeper. That should be frankly disclosed, that "This is not possible." So we shall write our Upendra? No, I have already written that he should be the secretary. No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You mentioned earlier today that he was supposed to be one of the trustees, but now this is different, so . . . Prabhupāda: So we are not going to make any trustee. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, no trustee. Prabhupāda: That is wrong. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. So in this way write him, "I am very much anxious to get your clear reply to this thing." Is that all right? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: All right. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can I . . . *Prabhupāda: So many things, " push*-push-push-push ," is going on. Let it be clear. If he wants to keep it private property, then we shall withdraw ISKCON name. Let him do it privately. Hari-śauri: And he should send copies of the deeds also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Because he has not yet produced the deeds. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's what I wanted to ask, request a copy of the deed. Prabhupāda: You understand Hindi? Ṛṣi Kumāra: Not really. A little bit, but I can't follow it. Do you want me to go to India, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Wherever you find suitable. Ṛṣi Kumāra: I was thinking about going back to Los Angeles for a while, because there's good preaching to be done in Los Angeles and Laguna Beach, too. I know a lot of people there. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles or New York. New York is your old place. But you don't want to go there? Ṛṣi Kumāra: New York? I can go there, I guess, but . . . Prabhupāda: No, you can remain in Los Angeles for the time being. Ṛṣi Kumāra: Because I know a lot of people in Laguna Beach who can be preached to. I think they'd be receptive, people who are . . . Prabhupāda: Reception is everywhere if we manage nice. Ṛṣi Kumāra: And there are a lot of artists and people who have everything, and they're living in the nicest . . . that's about the nicest place to live, and they're all unhappy. My brother's living there. He's a psychiatrist, and he's beginning to understand that the more he thinks, the more confused he gets. And I've been preaching to him, and he understands. There are also a lot of devotees who aren't in the temple now. They like Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but they also could be preached to, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, preaching constantly required to keep them in balance. As soon as the balance is overloaded on the māyā side, then everything is finished. Hari-śauri: They get a bit overwhelmed sometimes. *Prabhupāda: That is possible. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very strong. But if we also become equally strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no . . . that . . . just like in the beginning, a seed sown, it requires very careful attention. Then it grows up. And when one grows a tree, then that is all right. But so long it is not a tree—it is a plant—one has to take . . . and the watering is śravaṇa*-kīrtana . Śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana . That is required. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare āropaṇa , śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana . I think, Nineteenth Chapter of Madhya-līlā . Hari-śauri: It's a very good description how the bhakti tree grows, the creeper of bhakti . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śravaṇa*-kīrtana-jale karaye secana ? Nineteenth Chapter, Madhya-līlā . "When a person receives the seed of devotional service, he should take care of it by becoming a gardener and sowing the seed in his heart. If he waters the seed gradually by the process of śravaṇa and kīrtana , hearing and chanting, the seed will begin to sprout." Prabhupāda: Is there any purport? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "To live with devotees or to live in a temple means to associate with the śravaṇa*-kīrtana process. Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution of śravaṇa-kīrtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who engaged in the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity. However, one should not falsely imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura and abandon Deity worship just to try to engage in śravaṇa-kīrtana . This is not possible for neophyte devotees. The word guru-prasāda indicates that the spiritual master is very merciful in bestowing the boon of devotional service upon the disciple. That is the best possible gift the spiritual master has to offer. Those with a background of pious life are eligible to receive life's supreme benefit, and to bestow this benefit, the Supreme Personality of Godhead sends His representative to impart His mercy. Endowed with the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the spiritual master distributes the mercy to those who are elevated and pious. Thus the spiritual master trains his disciples to render devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called gurukṛpā . It is kṛṣṇa-prasāda, Kṛṣṇa's mercy, that He sends a bona fide spiritual master to the deserving disciple. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, one meets the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of the spiritual master, the disciple is fully trained in the devotional service of the Lord. *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja means 'the seed of devotional service.' Everything has an original cause, or seed. For any idea, program, plan or device, there is first of all the contemplation of the plan, and that is called bīja , or the seed. The methods, rules and regulations by which one is perfectly trained in devotional service constitute the bhakti-latā-bīja , or seed of devotional service. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received from the spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Other seeds are called anyabhilāṣita-bīja , karma-bīja and jñāna-bīja . If one is not fortunate enough to receive the bhakti-latā-bīja from the spiritual master, he instead cultivates the seeds of karma-bīja , jñāna-bīja , or political and social or philanthropic bīja . However, bhakti-latā-bīja is different from these other bījas . Bhakti-latā-bīja can be received only through the mercy of the spiritual master. Therefore one has to satisfy the spiritual master to get bhakti-latā-bīja : yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . Bhakti-latā-bīja is the origin of devotional service. Unless one satisfies the spiritual master, he gets the bīja , or root cause, of karma , jñāna or yoga without the benefit of devotional service. However, one who is faithful to his spiritual master gets the bhakti-latā-bīja . *"This bhakti*-latā-bīja is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master. After receiving the spiritual master's mercy, one must repeat his instructions, and this is called śravaṇa-kīrtana —hearing and chanting. One who has not properly heard from the spiritual master or who does not follow the regulative principles is not fit for chanting, kīrtana . This is explained in Bhagavad-gītā : vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana (BG 2.41). One who has not listened carefully to the instructions of the spiritual master is unfit to chant or preach the cult of devotional service. One has to water the bhakti-latā-bīja after receiving instructions from the spiritual master." Prabhupāda: Jaya . Hari-śauri: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (offers obeisances) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . there were a funny man. Name was Gopal Bhan. So formerly kings, they used to keep some funny men because they are always full of anxiety, and one funny man would give them joke. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They call them jesters, court jesters. Prabhupāda: Jester. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Court jester. Prabhupāda: Yes. Court jesters, yes. So there was a man, court jesters, in Bengal. So the Muhammadan governor asked one Gopal Bhan, jester . . . he was jester in the court of Raja Krishnachandra. So he asked him, nawab, that "Gopal Bhan, I have heard that you are very expert. Can you write a similar book, *Mahābhārata*, about my kingdom?" (laughter) "Oh, yes. Why not? That is not . . ." So he took some hundred thousands of rupees and again come: "Give me another ten thousand," "Another ten," in this way. "When the book will be finished? You have taken so much money." "It is just on the verge of being finished." Then, when he saw that no more money can be taken—"I have taken so much money"—then he one day said that "Now, sir, one information is very essential. That is wanted. You give me, and the *Mahābhārata* will be finished. Everything is there." "What is that information?" "Now, your wife, how many husband she has got?" "This is nonsense!" "Eh? Well, that is the main subject matter of *Mahābhārata* . Draupadī had five husbands, so you are such a great person, your wife must have at least one dozen. Otherwise, how *Mahābhārata* will be . . .?" "It is the subject matter of?" "Yes, that is the only subject matter, that Draupadī had five husbands. So you are such a big nawab, your wife must at least have one dozen. So give me their names." So he became very angry: "Don't talk all this nonsense." "Then I cannot finish your *Mahābhārata* ." "I have already invested . . ." So he took another ten thousand rupees, and he said, "Stop all this nonsense. That's all right." So these rascals, they are writing Gopal Bhan's *Mahābhārata* , and the rascal government is paying them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are not producing anything. Prabhupāda: They'll never be able. Challenge. "That we cannot say." As soon as you say, "Make an egg," "That we cannot say." And they'll chant, "Chemical evolution, chemical evolution" and get Nobel Prize. Rascals. But how the people are so foolish that they believe in this? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oṁ ajñāna*-timirāndhasya . Without spiritual master there is nothing they can say. Prabhupāda: This is very simple. You see everything, white and yellow. Produce. Chemicals are white. Some chemicals are yellow also. Just like hydroform, it is yellow. And soda bicarb, white, or potash cyanide is white. So you have got so many chemicals. Combine and pack it in a cell, and put underneath the incubator. Why rascal do not do this? Beat them with shoes. "Rascal, you are cheating in this way." Beat them with shoes. That's all. That is the only punishment. Hari-śauri: Yeah, that's too good. Prabhupāda: Hundreds of men demand them, that "Do it; otherwise don't talk nonsense. If you talk nonsense, then we will beat you with all our shoes." Then they'll stop all this nonsense talk. There is no punishment for their cheating and taking money. Hari-śauri: That's a fact. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Your Back to Godhead article in this last magazine, "They can make a 747 jet, but not a tiny mosquito." Very thought*-provoking. *Prabhupāda: With pilot. 747, you have to pay expert pilot, but here with pilot. Make this. Simply talking. Not only mosquito: at night we see so many, just like full stop, the same mechanical, flying from here, there, from here moving. Aeroplane, exactly in the form of . . . similarly standing and . . . that is our challenge. Challenge this. Go in public meeting. Bring these so*-called scientists, "Why don't you make any . . .? Why do you talk all this nonsense and cheat people?" Simple. Why first of all Sunday? There is no Monday first. I think never this question's raised, anybody. Fool's paradise. The Western world is fool's paradise. Actually this is the time they are getting enlightenment. Otherwise they are all fool's paradise. No social life, no religious life, simply get money somehow or other and enjoy wine, women, meat. That's all. This is their civilization. Do live comfortably; there is no harm. But why misconception? Hari-śauri: At least be honest. Prabhupāda: Yes. How can you deny God? All the scientists, they deny God. This simple fact that there is . . . (break) . . . is mother, and beginning from grass to the highest form of human being there are children. The mother is there; the children are there. Who is the father? How you can say there is no father? If the mother is there, then child is there, there must be father. I do not know how they can deny a supreme father. Anyway, this New Vrindavan life will attract people gradually, this peaceful life. They are searching after alternative. Hari-śauri: Oh, yeah. In the Vedic culture did they have sheep? Sheep herds? Did they keep sheep? Prabhupāda: Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For making, you know, the wool, woolen garments like the cap and cādara. Sometimes it's made out of wool. They would get from sheep? *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, the meat*-eaters cannot be stopped. They will eat meat. So they can kill the small animals, unimportant, not cow. Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . He never said lamb- rakṣya or hog- rakṣya . (laughs) You can eat hog. If it is decided that you must eat meat, then you can eat a nonimportant animal. We have no objection. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Or at least, as you said this morning, wait until the cow dies naturally. Prabhupāda: That is another. Otherwise, if you want to kill, you kill less important animal. Hari-śauri: Chickens and rabbits. Like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. But give protection to the cow, the source of milk. Hari-śauri: In most rural districts formerly, even just sixty or seventy years ago, they used to do that. The used to keep a hog or some animals for killing. They would fatten them up and kill them. Prabhupāda: Still in India, the low class, they keep hogs for killing. And they publicly kill the hog by burning outside the village skirt. Hari-śauri: I can remember when I was a child that my grandfather, he had one pigsty. And the house that we were living in, that also had a pigsty at the back. There were no pigs by the time I came, but only just a few years before they were doing that. Prabhupāda: Why the government should keep slaughterhouse? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You asked them that in Mauritius, I remember. The government started a chicken slaughterhouse. You said, "Why the government should have slaughterhouse?" And they replied, "They will kill them anyway. There are so many Muslims." Prabhupāda said, "Let them kill, but why the government should support this slaughter?" Prabhupāda: Let them kill at their house. Especially chicken, anyone can kill. Hari-śauri: The government's idea is that "The people are going to do these activities, so we may as well cash in, make money." Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: The government, their idea is that "If they are going to do this activity, then let us make money." Prabhupāda: And as soon as I heard that prime minister went to open this, I immediately . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda didn't want to meet him. Prabhupāda: "Oh, he's a rascal." Hari-śauri: In Mauritius the prime minister opened a chicken factory. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's a Hindu, too. Prabhupāda: Immediately I gave up the idea of meeting this rascal. (break) Hari-śauri: Well, of course, they'll always try to claim . . . Prabhupāda: From our estimation it is failure. They have not gone there. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: But what is their standard of failure and success? Hari-śauri: Well, they don't . . . they're establishing a standard now. They don't have a standard. They are always going to try to claim that it is beneficial. Otherwise, if it's judged a failure, then they won't get any money. Prabhupāda: That way they are successful—in getting money. Hari-śauri: So they have to say it's a success. Just like this Mars thing. If they can land a spaceship that takes a few photographs, supposedly of Mars, then that's considered a success. Prabhupāda: Photograph you can take anywhere. Hari-śauri: Yes. Could they actually send . . .? Are they actually sending these spaceships to another planet, or . . .? Prabhupāda: That they know. According to our calculations, they have not gone. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: It is false propaganda. They cannot go. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can go on a morning walk now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can go now, if you like. (end) (Conversation After Film) Ṛṣi Kumāra: It was very beautiful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ṛṣi Kumāra: Very nice film. Very pleasing. Prabhupāda: Now make Indian Bengali edition. It will be very much appreciated in India. Yes. Is it not? Ṛṣi Kumāra: Yes, everything looks so pleasing. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will very much like this movement. Make some Hindi version, Bengali. Kīrtanānanda: I think it will be a great success in India. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kumbha*-melā we can show. You had been in Kumbha-melā? *Ṛṣi Kumāra: No, I haven't. Last time it was Kumbha*-melā, I was in Bombay. I had to do some business with books and stuff. Prabhupāda: So you begin this preaching work in India with this film. With few assistants go village to village. They'll appreciate very much. Here also they will appreciate. Hmm? What do you think? School, college, university. They'll get an idea of new life. *Kīrtanānanda: Yes. There are many colleges that give courses now in alternate life*-styles. Prabhupāda: Yes, this a . . . Kīrtanānanda: This film, they will love to show this in class. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the alternative life*-style. It is not that . . . this is the only. The other thing is fictitious. That's nice. Keep it. Any other film? No. Make similar films. And I was anxious about food preparation. That is there, already there. Kīrtanānanda: Could have been a little more, but . . . *Prabhupāda: No, it is . . . in nutshell everything is there. Our agriculture, our temple, and food growing, and everything is there. Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship. The sum and substance, everything. And you are living practically for the last . . . eight years? Here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have no difficulty. You are happy more and more. Immense land. You can come, hundreds. We can provide. There is food. There is shelter. Kīrtanānanda: They are worried that by protecting the cow it would not be economic, that they would lose. But actually we have proof—the more we protect cows, the more we gain in opulence. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: Our community is gaining in opulence. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhānyena dhanavān . If you have got grain, then you are rich. And if you have got cows, then you are rich. This is the standard of Vedic richness. Dhānyena dhanavān gavayo dhanavān . They don't say, "Keep some papers and you become rich." All rascal, one thousand dollar I promise to pay, a piece of paper. Practical. We have got enough food grain, we have got enough . . . that is richness. What is use of paper? Even gold you have got, you have to exchange. And if you have grain, immediate food. Just boil with milk, and it is nectarean, paramānna, immediately. Take some wood collected from the wood and have fire, put the milk and the grains—oh, you'll get so nice food, nutritious, full of vitamin, and so easily made. It is practical. So tasteful, so nutritious, and don't require . . . if you simply boil little milk and little grain, whole day, so much sweet rice, you take— bās . You don't require any more. And if you add little apples and fruits, oh, it is heavenly. Your whole day free from any food anxiety, and you can work. And you can work. You can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make this ideal life here. America has got good potency. We have got so much land here. We can have hundreds of New Vrindabans or farms like that. And people will be happy. And invite all the world, "Please come and live with us. Why you are suffering congestion, overpopulation? Welcome here. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Make that. Indian culture and American strength make the whole world happy. That logic even I have given? Andha*-paṅgu? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Blind and lame. *Prabhupāda: India could not improve on account of poverty—lame. And America? Blind for want of culture. So let the blind man carry the lame man on the head, and the lame man give direction that "Go this way," and he walks. So both men's work is done. There is no hampering because one is blind and one is lame. Combined together, they get the benefit. Andha*-paṅgor nyāya . *Rādhā*-vallabha: The book distributors use that example sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It works, too. Prabhupāda: Do it very sincerely. Don't spoil life. Be very sober and do this work. Whole world will be happy. After all, they are seeking after happiness. So there is happiness here. So our Ṛṣi Kumāra is very intelligent boy. He can do so many things. Don't spoil him. Whatever is done is done. Sometimes māyā is strong. He bewilders even Lord Śiva. That is . . . but Śiva immediately came to his senses—"What I am doing?" So things are going on nice. Continue this program. People will be happy. And I think America is the only place who can spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement happily for the benefit of the whole world. You have got everything sufficiently. Now get the Kṛṣṇa intelligence. Now here, in this quarter, sun also rising very nicely nowadays. Formerly it was not so bright. Due to this Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting, sun is giving light. Is it not? Kīrtanānanda: It is a fact, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: The more people will be sinful, the place will be dark with cloudy. Nature will always disturb. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān ( BG 16.19). They will not be happy. It is not possible. This is the only way to become happy. So, so far as possible, I have given you some framework. Now you fill up. Make it a nice building. Yes. All right. (devotees offer obeisances) (break) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Viśākhā was wondering who . . . if you have any idea or choice who should do the Hindi translation or Bengali translation and speaking for the film like this. Did you have anyone in particular in mind? Or inquiry should be made? Prabhupāda: It requires some professional man. Laymen cannot go with the film. Hari-śauri: It needs a trained speaker. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Needs someone who's trained to speak nicely. Prabhupāda: Anyone can do. We can do also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But it may not come out so nice. Prabhupāda: But it may not be perfect. (break) Ṛṣi Kumāra: Prabhupāda, is it all right if I remain a sannyāsī ? Prabhupāda: Stay for some time. You'll get sannyāsa . Stay for some time. Ṛṣi Kumāra: Okay. I don't want to get married. It's just being kicked by māyā . I can see that. Prabhupāda: At least you have got already experience. (laughs) Don't be misled. Stay for sometimes. You will be given sannyāsa . And now Mr. Punja, has he written any letter? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Punjasai? He wrote a letter recently. He mentioned the business about the books, that Gurukṛpā said he was supposed to some give books from Australia, and he wasn't getting them. Prabhupāda: So you can write him—note down—that "We are managing our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by GBC. We have got about twenty GBCs for looking after the whole world affair, and above the GBC, I am there, and under the GBCs there are president, treasurer, secretary in each and every center. So the president is responsible to the GBC. GBC is responsible to me. In this way we are managing. But why you are proposing a separate trustee for Fiji? We have no separate trustee till now, but if for security, if it is required, you can adopt it. So this is our management going on. Now, if you have got some new idea, so please explain to me how you want to manage. But I think Fiji temple cannot be managed in a separate idea. But still, I shall entertain if you have got some idea to manage. The deed should be given to the founder-ācārya, in the name of founder-ācārya, like 'A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Founder-Ācārya, International Society.'" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The deed? Prabhupāda: The deed, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Should be . . .? *Prabhupāda: "It cannot be dedicated to any of the office*-bearers." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's one thing . . . I wanted to ask . . . Hari-śauri: Should be in there, "Founder-Ācārya." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The deed should be . . .? I wanted to clarify that earlier this afternoon . . . *Prabhupāda: "Deed should be made in favor of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, Founder-Ācārya, International Society. But it cannot be dedicated to any office*-bearer. So I suggest that you become the president of the temple and Upendra become the secretary, and either your brother or your wife can become the treasurer. There is no need of trustees. But in any circumstances, the temple cannot be a private property in the name of ISKCON. That is not possible." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "A private property in the name of ISKCON." Prabhupāda: "If you want to keep it a private property, then the ISKCON name should not be utilized." Here you have understood that he's trying to utilize ISKCON's name . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: To collect. Prabhupāda: . . . to collect, and he'll be keeper. That should be frankly disclosed, that "This is not possible." So we shall write our Upendra? No, I have already written that he should be the secretary. No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You mentioned earlier today that he was supposed to be one of the trustees, but now this is different, so . . . Prabhupāda: So we are not going to make any trustee. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, no trustee. Prabhupāda: That is wrong. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. So in this way write him, "I am very much anxious to get your clear reply to this thing." Is that all right? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: All right. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can I . . . *Prabhupāda: So many things, " push*-push-push-push ," is going on. Let it be clear. If he wants to keep it private property, then we shall withdraw ISKCON name. Let him do it privately. Hari-śauri: And he should send copies of the deeds also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Because he has not yet produced the deeds. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's what I wanted to ask, request a copy of the deed. Prabhupāda: You understand Hindi? Ṛṣi Kumāra: Not really. A little bit, but I can't follow it. Do you want me to go to India, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Wherever you find suitable. Ṛṣi Kumāra: I was thinking about going back to Los Angeles for a while, because there's good preaching to be done in Los Angeles and Laguna Beach, too. I know a lot of people there. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles or New York. New York is your old place. But you don't want to go there? Ṛṣi Kumāra: New York? I can go there, I guess, but . . . Prabhupāda: No, you can remain in Los Angeles for the time being. Ṛṣi Kumāra: Because I know a lot of people in Laguna Beach who can be preached to. I think they'd be receptive, people who are . . . Prabhupāda: Reception is everywhere if we manage nice. Ṛṣi Kumāra: And there are a lot of artists and people who have everything, and they're living in the nicest . . . that's about the nicest place to live, and they're all unhappy. My brother's living there. He's a psychiatrist, and he's beginning to understand that the more he thinks, the more confused he gets. And I've been preaching to him, and he understands. There are also a lot of devotees who aren't in the temple now. They like Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but they also could be preached to, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, preaching constantly required to keep them in balance. As soon as the balance is overloaded on the māyā side, then everything is finished. Hari-śauri: They get a bit overwhelmed sometimes. *Prabhupāda: That is possible. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very strong. But if we also become equally strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no . . . that . . . just like in the beginning, a seed sown, it requires very careful attention. Then it grows up. And when one grows a tree, then that is all right. But so long it is not a tree—it is a plant—one has to take . . . and the watering is śravaṇa*-kīrtana . Śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana . That is required. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare āropaṇa , śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana . I think, Nineteenth Chapter of Madhya-līlā . Hari-śauri: It's a very good description how the bhakti tree grows, the creeper of bhakti . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śravaṇa*-kīrtana-jale karaye secana ? Nineteenth Chapter, Madhya-līlā . "When a person receives the seed of devotional service, he should take care of it by becoming a gardener and sowing the seed in his heart. If he waters the seed gradually by the process of śravaṇa and kīrtana , hearing and chanting, the seed will begin to sprout." Prabhupāda: Is there any purport? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "To live with devotees or to live in a temple means to associate with the śravaṇa*-kīrtana process. Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution of śravaṇa-kīrtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who engaged in the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity. However, one should not falsely imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura and abandon Deity worship just to try to engage in śravaṇa-kīrtana . This is not possible for neophyte devotees. The word guru-prasāda indicates that the spiritual master is very merciful in bestowing the boon of devotional service upon the disciple. That is the best possible gift the spiritual master has to offer. Those with a background of pious life are eligible to receive life's supreme benefit, and to bestow this benefit, the Supreme Personality of Godhead sends His representative to impart His mercy. Endowed with the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the spiritual master distributes the mercy to those who are elevated and pious. Thus the spiritual master trains his disciples to render devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called gurukṛpā . It is kṛṣṇa-prasāda, Kṛṣṇa's mercy, that He sends a bona fide spiritual master to the deserving disciple. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, one meets the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of the spiritual master, the disciple is fully trained in the devotional service of the Lord. *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja means 'the seed of devotional service.' Everything has an original cause, or seed. For any idea, program, plan or device, there is first of all the contemplation of the plan, and that is called bīja , or the seed. The methods, rules and regulations by which one is perfectly trained in devotional service constitute the bhakti-latā-bīja , or seed of devotional service. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received from the spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Other seeds are called anyabhilāṣita-bīja , karma-bīja and jñāna-bīja . If one is not fortunate enough to receive the bhakti-latā-bīja from the spiritual master, he instead cultivates the seeds of karma-bīja , jñāna-bīja , or political and social or philanthropic bīja . However, bhakti-latā-bīja is different from these other bījas . Bhakti-latā-bīja can be received only through the mercy of the spiritual master. Therefore one has to satisfy the spiritual master to get bhakti-latā-bīja : yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . Bhakti-latā-bīja is the origin of devotional service. Unless one satisfies the spiritual master, he gets the bīja , or root cause, of karma , jñāna or yoga without the benefit of devotional service. However, one who is faithful to his spiritual master gets the bhakti-latā-bīja . *"This bhakti*-latā-bīja is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master. After receiving the spiritual master's mercy, one must repeat his instructions, and this is called śravaṇa-kīrtana —hearing and chanting. One who has not properly heard from the spiritual master or who does not follow the regulative principles is not fit for chanting, kīrtana . This is explained in Bhagavad-gītā : vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana (BG 2.41). One who has not listened carefully to the instructions of the spiritual master is unfit to chant or preach the cult of devotional service. One has to water the bhakti-latā-bīja after receiving instructions from the spiritual master." Prabhupāda: Jaya . Hari-śauri: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (offers obeisances) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . there were a funny man. Name was Gopal Bhan. So formerly kings, they used to keep some funny men because they are always full of anxiety, and one funny man would give them joke. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They call them jesters, court jesters. Prabhupāda: Jester. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Court jester. Prabhupāda: Yes. Court jesters, yes. So there was a man, court jesters, in Bengal. So the Muhammadan governor asked one Gopal Bhan, jester . . . he was jester in the court of Raja Krishnachandra. So he asked him, nawab, that "Gopal Bhan, I have heard that you are very expert. Can you write a similar book, *Mahābhārata*, about my kingdom?" (laughter) "Oh, yes. Why not? That is not . . ." So he took some hundred thousands of rupees and again come: "Give me another ten thousand," "Another ten," in this way. "When the book will be finished? You have taken so much money." "It is just on the verge of being finished." Then, when he saw that no more money can be taken—"I have taken so much money"—then he one day said that "Now, sir, one information is very essential. That is wanted. You give me, and the *Mahābhārata* will be finished. Everything is there." "What is that information?" "Now, your wife, how many husband she has got?" "This is nonsense!" "Eh? Well, that is the main subject matter of *Mahābhārata* . Draupadī had five husbands, so you are such a great person, your wife must have at least one dozen. Otherwise, how *Mahābhārata* will be . . .?" "It is the subject matter of?" "Yes, that is the only subject matter, that Draupadī had five husbands. So you are such a big nawab, your wife must at least have one dozen. So give me their names." So he became very angry: "Don't talk all this nonsense." "Then I cannot finish your *Mahābhārata* ." "I have already invested . . ." So he took another ten thousand rupees, and he said, "Stop all this nonsense. That's all right." So these rascals, they are writing Gopal Bhan's *Mahābhārata* , and the rascal government is paying them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are not producing anything. Prabhupāda: They'll never be able. Challenge. "That we cannot say." As soon as you say, "Make an egg," "That we cannot say." And they'll chant, "Chemical evolution, chemical evolution" and get Nobel Prize. Rascals. But how the people are so foolish that they believe in this? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oṁ ajñāna*-timirāndhasya . Without spiritual master there is nothing they can say. Prabhupāda: This is very simple. You see everything, white and yellow. Produce. Chemicals are white. Some chemicals are yellow also. Just like hydroform, it is yellow. And soda bicarb, white, or potash cyanide is white. So you have got so many chemicals. Combine and pack it in a cell, and put underneath the incubator. Why rascal do not do this? Beat them with shoes. "Rascal, you are cheating in this way." Beat them with shoes. That's all. That is the only punishment. Hari-śauri: Yeah, that's too good. Prabhupāda: Hundreds of men demand them, that "Do it; otherwise don't talk nonsense. If you talk nonsense, then we will beat you with all our shoes." Then they'll stop all this nonsense talk. There is no punishment for their cheating and taking money. Hari-śauri: That's a fact. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Your Back to Godhead article in this last magazine, "They can make a 747 jet, but not a tiny mosquito." Very thought*-provoking. *Prabhupāda: With pilot. 747, you have to pay expert pilot, but here with pilot. Make this. Simply talking. Not only mosquito: at night we see so many, just like full stop, the same mechanical, flying from here, there, from here moving. Aeroplane, exactly in the form of . . . similarly standing and . . . that is our challenge. Challenge this. Go in public meeting. Bring these so*-called scientists, "Why don't you make any . . .? Why do you talk all this nonsense and cheat people?" Simple. Why first of all Sunday? There is no Monday first. I think never this question's raised, anybody. Fool's paradise. The Western world is fool's paradise. Actually this is the time they are getting enlightenment. Otherwise they are all fool's paradise. No social life, no religious life, simply get money somehow or other and enjoy wine, women, meat. That's all. This is their civilization. Do live comfortably; there is no harm. But why misconception? Hari-śauri: At least be honest. Prabhupāda: Yes. How can you deny God? All the scientists, they deny God. This simple fact that there is . . . (break) . . . is mother, and beginning from grass to the highest form of human being there are children. The mother is there; the children are there. Who is the father? How you can say there is no father? If the mother is there, then child is there, there must be father. I do not know how they can deny a supreme father. Anyway, this New Vrindavan life will attract people gradually, this peaceful life. They are searching after alternative. Hari-śauri: Oh, yeah. In the Vedic culture did they have sheep? Sheep herds? Did they keep sheep? Prabhupāda: Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For making, you know, the wool, woolen garments like the cap and cādara. Sometimes it's made out of wool. They would get from sheep? *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, the meat*-eaters cannot be stopped. They will eat meat. So they can kill the small animals, unimportant, not cow. Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . He never said lamb- rakṣya or hog- rakṣya . (laughs) You can eat hog. If it is decided that you must eat meat, then you can eat a nonimportant animal. We have no objection. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Or at least, as you said this morning, wait until the cow dies naturally. Prabhupāda: That is another. Otherwise, if you want to kill, you kill less important animal. Hari-śauri: Chickens and rabbits. Like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. But give protection to the cow, the source of milk. Hari-śauri: In most rural districts formerly, even just sixty or seventy years ago, they used to do that. The used to keep a hog or some animals for killing. They would fatten them up and kill them. Prabhupāda: Still in India, the low class, they keep hogs for killing. And they publicly kill the hog by burning outside the village skirt. Hari-śauri: I can remember when I was a child that my grandfather, he had one pigsty. And the house that we were living in, that also had a pigsty at the back. There were no pigs by the time I came, but only just a few years before they were doing that. Prabhupāda: Why the government should keep slaughterhouse? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You asked them that in Mauritius, I remember. The government started a chicken slaughterhouse. You said, "Why the government should have slaughterhouse?" And they replied, "They will kill them anyway. There are so many Muslims." Prabhupāda said, "Let them kill, but why the government should support this slaughter?" Prabhupāda: Let them kill at their house. Especially chicken, anyone can kill. Hari-śauri: The government's idea is that "The people are going to do these activities, so we may as well cash in, make money." Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: The government, their idea is that "If they are going to do this activity, then let us make money." Prabhupāda: And as soon as I heard that prime minister went to open this, I immediately . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda didn't want to meet him. Prabhupāda: "Oh, he's a rascal." Hari-śauri: In Mauritius the prime minister opened a chicken factory. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's a Hindu, too. Prabhupāda: Immediately I gave up the idea of meeting this rascal. (break) Hari-śauri: Well, of course, they'll always try to claim . . . Prabhupāda: From our estimation it is failure. They have not gone there. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: But what is their standard of failure and success? Hari-śauri: Well, they don't . . . they're establishing a standard now. They don't have a standard. They are always going to try to claim that it is beneficial. Otherwise, if it's judged a failure, then they won't get any money. Prabhupāda: That way they are successful—in getting money. Hari-śauri: So they have to say it's a success. Just like this Mars thing. If they can land a spaceship that takes a few photographs, supposedly of Mars, then that's considered a success. Prabhupāda: Photograph you can take anywhere. Hari-śauri: Yes. Could they actually send . . .? Are they actually sending these spaceships to another planet, or . . .? Prabhupāda: That they know. According to our calculations, they have not gone. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: It is false propaganda. They cannot go. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can go on a morning walk now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can go now, if you like. (end) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now what we've been doing with the dead cows is burying them. There's no . . . everything's wasted. Śrīla Prabhupāda is proposing that why not the butcher take, we give free, he simply returns us the skin of the cow, and with the cowhide we properly tan it, we can make mṛdaṅga heads for the khol , and shoes, straps, whatever may be needed. The idea being that in the Western countries especially, people are accustomed to eating animals, animal flesh. So we have no objection. Prabhupāda: Beef, especially beef. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially cows and beef. So we have no objection, but they should at least wait until it dies naturally. What is the harm? They still get the same thing, and one devotee, Kīrtanānanda, I think, was saying that when they slaughter an animal even in the slaughterhouse, it has to sit some time, some number of days before they distribute it. So I proposed that the Westerners, they consider that this is superstitious, this protection of the cow. Prabhupāda said, "Why superstitious?" The cow is providing milk. Every child knows that he's getting milk from the cow; the cow is mother. So why in the old age we should slaughter mother? Is this a good argument that like, for example, they say in India how so many people are starving, why don't they eat the cows? So Prabhupāda proposed that "So if you're starving, does it mean that you eat your mother and father?" Prabhupāda: If you want to eat, let the father and mother die, then eat. (laughter) Who has objection? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's so reasonable. It's so reasonable. At least, Prabhupāda says, for the saner section, they will accept. Hari-śauri: The thing is, people are mad after meat. Prabhupāda: Madman . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they still get it. Prabhupāda: But he'll get meat. Hari-śauri: But then their argument is that if we don't have big, big slaughterhouses, then there won't be enough supply. Prabhupāda: No why should . . .? After all, the animal is going to die. It is not for . . . he's permanently. Why should you kill? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they kill the animal first in the slaughterhouse and then do whatever they have to do. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But we are killing when they are young, when their meat is fresh. When the body is old, the meat is . . . Prabhupāda: That you have to change. Fresh or dead, you're eating flesh, that's all. You wait till the death. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But the old flesh is not . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, you do not . . . you do whatever you like. So at least you can take free of charges a dead cow from us, and you can give us only the skin, and you eat. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: This should be the system. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's so reasonable. Prabhupāda: We don't want anything from you; you take it, the whole flesh. You take free. You simply give us the skin; we can utilize it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even if people would do this, it would be such an advancement. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because a class of men will demand to eat the flesh. You cannot stop it. So we are giving free: you eat. And from economic point of view, we require the skin for our mṛdaṅga making. So give us the skin. That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda says the butcher, even, he can sell the meat cheaply, make profit. He's getting it free of charge. Hari-śauri: Maybe some time in the future this could happen when Kṛṣṇa consciousness becomes very powerful influence in the country, but unless we could actually close the slaughterhouse . . . Prabhupāda: No, but now by imploring, we are requesting him that "You can take this cow and sell in your shop, butcher shop; you give us the skin. And you can tell the customer that it is as good, it is cheaper. So whatever money you get, that is your profit. You haven't got to invest anything." Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Do you propose that we should do this now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, no, this is . . . think over. Hari-śauri: Yes, the proposition is very good, that's a fact. Prabhupāda: First of all, you try one butcher, that "Why not make this advantage?" How does he react, see. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, that he will not pay anything . . . Prabhupāda: He's not going to pay us. Simply take it and sell it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They sell meat . . . for one pound of meat, they can get sometimes two dollars, three dollars, four dollars. So much money, big cow. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But the government has inspectors, a team of inspectors. No meat can be sold unless it is inspected, and then they want to examine the condition. Prabhupāda: So let them inspect. What is the wrong there? It should be open. If the inspection, there is nothing wrong, then they can do this business. Hari-śauri: Generally, though, their inspection is when the animal is alive, they check to see that he has no disease. Then they can be killed. But if an animal dies naturally, then generally it is to be supposed that it dies from some malfunction within the body, that there may be some diseases or whatever. So then . . . Prabhupāda: That is artificial. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have so many rules. Hari-śauri: But that is their rules and regulations they have. Prabhupāda: They'll change. When they, by chemical analysis, they don't find any fault, then they can change. Devotee: They have no substance. Prabhupāda: From economic point of view, why this body should be wasted? Let it be utilized. Those that are eating, let them eat. And economic point of view, we save the skin. We require it for our purpose. That is the idea. After all, we require the skin for our khol making. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And for the farm straps? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Shoes, slippers, so many things. I think Kīrtanānanda Swami has done that with some of the cows. They have taken the hide for making the straps and the leather . . . Hari-śauri: They're not doing it now, though. Prabhupāda: But we should not do it ourselves. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, that's for the mucis. Prabhupāda: That is not our business. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Give it to the butcher. He will get the skin and give it to us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not that everything we have to do. No. That will deteriorate. Those who are doing, let it be done by them. Hari-śauri: It seems like it will be a long time before we can implement something like that. Prabhupāda: I am proposing; *think over. Because it is a fact that in spite our vigorous propaganda, we cannot stop meat*-eating. That is not possible. People will eat. So those who are eating, let us make some arrangement that "You take it free of charges." From economic point of view, they get it free. They can make good profit. And we are interested with the skin. So why not make some arrangement? It is practical. Hari-śauri: That's very good. Prabhupāda: Instead of the thing being wasted for nothing, let us devise some means, that "You are eating, you can eat." And we want the skin, let us give it. What is the wrong there? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Perfect economics. Prabhupāda: Yes. We require the skin, that's a fact. And you want to eat, all right, eat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Could such a thing be done in India today also? Prabhupāda: No, why it will be done? Everywhere it should be done. Who does not eat meat? That is the . . . first of all, you try this. From economic point of view, why one thing should be wasted? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Practical preaching. *Hari-śauri: We can't stop meat*-eating, but we can stop the unnecessary slaughter of animals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would be a great step forward. *Prabhupāda: So our business is to stop slaughter. Meat*-eating we cannot stop. Certain persons, they must eat. They are fourth-class and then fifth-class men. There are four classifications— brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra and caṇḍāla . Caṇḍālas , they will remain, and they are eating. So let them eat meat. That is the system in India still. It is not that in India nobody's eating meat. The cobbler class, they eat; the caṇḍāla class, they eat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even cows, cow flesh. Prabhupāda: Dead. This cow killing has been introduced by these Britishers. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Christian philosophy. Prabhupāda: Christians. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I saw in Juhu the Christians. Hari-śauri: Now even they're exporting beef from India. Prabhupāda: Yes. They can do anything, take the dead cows. I do not know if there is any chemical composition change. They are eating so many dead animals. Take for fish. The fish is never killed alive, because as soon as you take it out from water, it is dead, after few minutes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And they don't consider if it's a young fish or an old fish. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: If that was the system, people will not get sick. They will not get sick from eating old animals. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is all wrong conception. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will say . . . simply think the taste there is too tough, the skin may be older. Prabhupāda: They are eating so many rotten things. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. And they are burning it, cooking it. Prabhupāda: Lobster, it is simply pus. They eat. I've seen it. From whiteness it has become yellow, puslike. They eat it, what is called that soup? Lobster soup? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Clam chowder. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: So many things. Prabhupāda: But they like very much that lobster soup. In the plane, one Englishman was doing, "What is this? I asked after lobster soup." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In England? Oysters? Prabhupāda: No, lobsters. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With the big pinchers. Hari-śauri: They have big, long feelers. They get the lobsters sometimes alive, and they throw them in boiling water, and they can hear them screaming. But now they're speculating whether it's actually the lobsters screaming because it's being boiled alive or whether it's just air that's coming out from its body and making a squeaking noise. Prabhupāda: No, that is, apart from that, they import lobster from India, Cochin. They are exporting lobster alive. I have seen. The same ship, they load it with lobster, fatty, and black creeper, and cashew, they exported. The big, big business firms for exporting. So these lobster, although they are kept in ice and so on, so on, they become decomposed. I've seen in the port, that Commonwealth Pier. There is store of lobster, and the lobster has become yellow and almost melted by decomposing. They are selling that. Hari-śauri: When it starts to fall apart, that's when they consider it's the best. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: When it starts to fall apart, that's when they think it's the best. I think I mentioned before, in England, the gentry, the British gentry, when they used to go hunting, shooting pheasants and partridges, afterwards they would get the dead birds and hang them in a shed outside, and then after some days, when all the skin and the feathers were literally falling off, that's when they would eat it. That's when it was considered rich. Prabhupāda: There are so many kadarya things. In Burma, they have got a system, Burmese family. In the door, there is a pot, a big pot. So whatever animal dies, put it there and cover it. So in this way, after some years, they're decomposed, and it becomes liquid, and then it is so decomposed that if you open it, even three miles they smell. So that is mature. Then they take out the liquid and keep it in bottle. That is called naphi . And they stock it, and when there is some feast at home they'll give little that naphi and they'll relish it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Barbers? Prabhupāda: Burma. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Burma. That's the most . . . Prabhupāda: And when you fry lucī , all the other tenants will come, "What you are cooking?" This is practical because we opened . . . my Guru Mahārāja opened a branch in Burma in an apartment. So that Gaurāṅga who was my servant in family life, he was there. He said like this, that "When I fry purī , the ghee smell is there, so many people will come from other apartments, (whispers) 'Oh, what you are cooking? What you are cooking?' " And the naphi , they relish it in feast. So it is a question of taste. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's the ultimate. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I remember as a child in Hong Kong, in the village they would keep big glass jars with snakes, they would put the snakes in jars. And after they were many times soaking in liquid, then they would eat it. Hari-śauri: Pickled snakes. Prabhupāda: Snake. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, keep it in a jar in liquid. Prabhupāda: They put in the jar alive? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No, they catch it, kill it, put it in the jar. Hari-śauri: It's like a pickle. They pickle it. And when they want to eat it, they take. Prabhupāda: So there is poison in the mouth, they cut it? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They cut off the head. Flesh. Prabhupāda: Snake they eat. Even in India there is a class, they eat snake . . . (indistinct) . . . Chinese, they eat. They are Chinese? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. Hong Kong. Prabhupāda: They eat anything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So many abominable things. Hari-śauri: Someone was telling me in Mexico they have a sandwich called tortilla. It has live cockroaches. And as they're eating, the cockroaches are running to get out of the sandwich, and they are pushing them back in and eating it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Africa also they eat live bugs. Cockroaches, dead or alive, anything. Once when we were in Zambia, there was this one African who was cleaning around the house, his name was David. He was about twenty years old. So we swept up his room because it was so filthy—I was there at the time. And there were all these cockroaches in a pile, and we were about to throw them out and he said, "What? You're throwing them out? You mean you're not going to eat them?" (laughter) Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Even . . . (indistinct) . . . there was one big, big professor we met in the college . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's hard to understand that prasādam is . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Not only the Africans, but this big, big professor, she is advocating that people should eat the bugs because they are good protein. She is experimenting different bugs to eat—the worm, the cockroach, the beetle—and she's making a big study, being paid money, how to feed people by eating insects. *Hari-śauri: They're already doing that. In France, you can buy cans of chocolate*-coated ants. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Grasshoppers too. Hari-śauri: Grasshoppers, frog's legs, bumblebees, fried bumblebees you can get. The French eat the most abominable foodstuff. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The English think that way, anyway. Hari-śauri: They all do. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The English think the French eat abominable foods. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: This is the modes of nature, Śrīla Prabhupāda, acting. Prabhupāda: Kadarya bhakṣaṇa . Hari-śauri: It's difficult to imagine what kind of fate we would have had if you hadn't come and started this movement. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everything is so scientific. We've seen practically that as people take up this chanting, that gradually they lose their taste for every other kind of eating. It's a fact. (devotees offer obeisances and prepare to leave) (pause) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I should inform Kīrtanānanda Swami about some of these ideas? Prabhupāda: Yes, if you can arrange with the butcher. Hari-śauri: One thing, the other day they were saying that sometimes when they have this skim milk, and there's some excess after they've fed it to the cows, they throw it away, they use it for fertilizer. Should they do that? Is that all right to use that? Prabhupāda: No. Oh, no. We can use it. Hari-śauri: The skim milk, after they've . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? Explain. Hari-śauri: They have some skim milk. So when they've finished giving it to the devotees and they've finished giving it to the cows, then if there's any extra, they throw it away. Prabhupāda: How give it to the cows? Hari-śauri: They feed it to the cows. Prabhupāda: They eat? Hari-śauri: They drink it. They put it in their feed, whatever. But then if there's any extra, they throw it away, they put on the . . . mix it with fertilizer or whatever for the land. Prabhupāda: It should not be given to the cows. It should be kept, and when it is broken, you get the chānā . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Curd, is it? Hari-śauri: It should be made into curd and yogurt, things like that. Prabhupāda: Yes, not yogurt; chānā , what you call, curd? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like cheese, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Cheese, yes? But it should not be thrown. From cheese you can make so many preparations. Hari-śauri: I'll mention it to Kulādri then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned also about the whey that you get. Prabhupāda: Everything should be utilized. Instead of drinking water, you can drink whey. It is very good for digesting. Whey, put little salt and black pepper, it is good digestant. You can avoid water, drink whey. You can use it for cāpāṭi . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Making dough? Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi , just like you dip the cāpāṭi in ḍāl , you can dip whey. You can save ḍāl preparing expenditure. Nothing of milk product can be wasted. You should learn it. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's what I thought. That's why I was asking. Prabhupāda: Up to the last drop, it can be utilized. Hari-śauri: Everything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Skim milk should not be given to the calves? The calves should get? Prabhupāda: They don't require it. They don't require it. The cow is especially meant for the human being. They can utilize in so many ways, and they should give protection, such an important animal. This is human being. (end) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now what we've been doing with the dead cows is burying them. There's no . . . everything's wasted. Śrīla Prabhupāda is proposing that why not the butcher take, we give free, he simply returns us the skin of the cow, and with the cowhide we properly tan it, we can make mṛdaṅga heads for the khol , and shoes, straps, whatever may be needed. The idea being that in the Western countries especially, people are accustomed to eating animals, animal flesh. So we have no objection. Prabhupāda: Beef, especially beef. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially cows and beef. So we have no objection, but they should at least wait until it dies naturally. What is the harm? They still get the same thing, and one devotee, Kīrtanānanda, I think, was saying that when they slaughter an animal even in the slaughterhouse, it has to sit some time, some number of days before they distribute it. So I proposed that the Westerners, they consider that this is superstitious, this protection of the cow. Prabhupāda said, "Why superstitious?" The cow is providing milk. Every child knows that he's getting milk from the cow; the cow is mother. So why in the old age we should slaughter mother? Is this a good argument that like, for example, they say in India how so many people are starving, why don't they eat the cows? So Prabhupāda proposed that "So if you're starving, does it mean that you eat your mother and father?" Prabhupāda: If you want to eat, let the father and mother die, then eat. (laughter) Who has objection? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's so reasonable. It's so reasonable. At least, Prabhupāda says, for the saner section, they will accept. Hari-śauri: The thing is, people are mad after meat. Prabhupāda: Madman . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they still get it. Prabhupāda: But he'll get meat. Hari-śauri: But then their argument is that if we don't have big, big slaughterhouses, then there won't be enough supply. Prabhupāda: No why should . . .? After all, the animal is going to die. It is not for . . . he's permanently. Why should you kill? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they kill the animal first in the slaughterhouse and then do whatever they have to do. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But we are killing when they are young, when their meat is fresh. When the body is old, the meat is . . . Prabhupāda: That you have to change. Fresh or dead, you're eating flesh, that's all. You wait till the death. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But the old flesh is not . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, you do not . . . you do whatever you like. So at least you can take free of charges a dead cow from us, and you can give us only the skin, and you eat. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: This should be the system. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's so reasonable. Prabhupāda: We don't want anything from you; you take it, the whole flesh. You take free. You simply give us the skin; we can utilize it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even if people would do this, it would be such an advancement. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because a class of men will demand to eat the flesh. You cannot stop it. So we are giving free: you eat. And from economic point of view, we require the skin for our mṛdaṅga making. So give us the skin. That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda says the butcher, even, he can sell the meat cheaply, make profit. He's getting it free of charge. Hari-śauri: Maybe some time in the future this could happen when Kṛṣṇa consciousness becomes very powerful influence in the country, but unless we could actually close the slaughterhouse . . . Prabhupāda: No, but now by imploring, we are requesting him that "You can take this cow and sell in your shop, butcher shop; you give us the skin. And you can tell the customer that it is as good, it is cheaper. So whatever money you get, that is your profit. You haven't got to invest anything." Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Do you propose that we should do this now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, no, this is . . . think over. Hari-śauri: Yes, the proposition is very good, that's a fact. Prabhupāda: First of all, you try one butcher, that "Why not make this advantage?" How does he react, see. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, that he will not pay anything . . . Prabhupāda: He's not going to pay us. Simply take it and sell it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They sell meat . . . for one pound of meat, they can get sometimes two dollars, three dollars, four dollars. So much money, big cow. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But the government has inspectors, a team of inspectors. No meat can be sold unless it is inspected, and then they want to examine the condition. Prabhupāda: So let them inspect. What is the wrong there? It should be open. If the inspection, there is nothing wrong, then they can do this business. Hari-śauri: Generally, though, their inspection is when the animal is alive, they check to see that he has no disease. Then they can be killed. But if an animal dies naturally, then generally it is to be supposed that it dies from some malfunction within the body, that there may be some diseases or whatever. So then . . . Prabhupāda: That is artificial. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have so many rules. Hari-śauri: But that is their rules and regulations they have. Prabhupāda: They'll change. When they, by chemical analysis, they don't find any fault, then they can change. Devotee: They have no substance. Prabhupāda: From economic point of view, why this body should be wasted? Let it be utilized. Those that are eating, let them eat. And economic point of view, we save the skin. We require it for our purpose. That is the idea. After all, we require the skin for our khol making. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And for the farm straps? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Shoes, slippers, so many things. I think Kīrtanānanda Swami has done that with some of the cows. They have taken the hide for making the straps and the leather . . . Hari-śauri: They're not doing it now, though. Prabhupāda: But we should not do it ourselves. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, that's for the mucis. Prabhupāda: That is not our business. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Give it to the butcher. He will get the skin and give it to us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not that everything we have to do. No. That will deteriorate. Those who are doing, let it be done by them. Hari-śauri: It seems like it will be a long time before we can implement something like that. Prabhupāda: I am proposing; *think over. Because it is a fact that in spite our vigorous propaganda, we cannot stop meat*-eating. That is not possible. People will eat. So those who are eating, let us make some arrangement that "You take it free of charges." From economic point of view, they get it free. They can make good profit. And we are interested with the skin. So why not make some arrangement? It is practical. Hari-śauri: That's very good. Prabhupāda: Instead of the thing being wasted for nothing, let us devise some means, that "You are eating, you can eat." And we want the skin, let us give it. What is the wrong there? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Perfect economics. Prabhupāda: Yes. We require the skin, that's a fact. And you want to eat, all right, eat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Could such a thing be done in India today also? Prabhupāda: No, why it will be done? Everywhere it should be done. Who does not eat meat? That is the . . . first of all, you try this. From economic point of view, why one thing should be wasted? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Practical preaching. *Hari-śauri: We can't stop meat*-eating, but we can stop the unnecessary slaughter of animals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would be a great step forward. *Prabhupāda: So our business is to stop slaughter. Meat*-eating we cannot stop. Certain persons, they must eat. They are fourth-class and then fifth-class men. There are four classifications— brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra and caṇḍāla . Caṇḍālas , they will remain, and they are eating. So let them eat meat. That is the system in India still. It is not that in India nobody's eating meat. The cobbler class, they eat; the caṇḍāla class, they eat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even cows, cow flesh. Prabhupāda: Dead. This cow killing has been introduced by these Britishers. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Christian philosophy. Prabhupāda: Christians. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I saw in Juhu the Christians. Hari-śauri: Now even they're exporting beef from India. Prabhupāda: Yes. They can do anything, take the dead cows. I do not know if there is any chemical composition change. They are eating so many dead animals. Take for fish. The fish is never killed alive, because as soon as you take it out from water, it is dead, after few minutes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And they don't consider if it's a young fish or an old fish. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: If that was the system, people will not get sick. They will not get sick from eating old animals. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is all wrong conception. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will say . . . simply think the taste there is too tough, the skin may be older. Prabhupāda: They are eating so many rotten things. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. And they are burning it, cooking it. Prabhupāda: Lobster, it is simply pus. They eat. I've seen it. From whiteness it has become yellow, puslike. They eat it, what is called that soup? Lobster soup? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Clam chowder. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: So many things. Prabhupāda: But they like very much that lobster soup. In the plane, one Englishman was doing, "What is this? I asked after lobster soup." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In England? Oysters? Prabhupāda: No, lobsters. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With the big pinchers. Hari-śauri: They have big, long feelers. They get the lobsters sometimes alive, and they throw them in boiling water, and they can hear them screaming. But now they're speculating whether it's actually the lobsters screaming because it's being boiled alive or whether it's just air that's coming out from its body and making a squeaking noise. Prabhupāda: No, that is, apart from that, they import lobster from India, Cochin. They are exporting lobster alive. I have seen. The same ship, they load it with lobster, fatty, and black creeper, and cashew, they exported. The big, big business firms for exporting. So these lobster, although they are kept in ice and so on, so on, they become decomposed. I've seen in the port, that Commonwealth Pier. There is store of lobster, and the lobster has become yellow and almost melted by decomposing. They are selling that. Hari-śauri: When it starts to fall apart, that's when they consider it's the best. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: When it starts to fall apart, that's when they think it's the best. I think I mentioned before, in England, the gentry, the British gentry, when they used to go hunting, shooting pheasants and partridges, afterwards they would get the dead birds and hang them in a shed outside, and then after some days, when all the skin and the feathers were literally falling off, that's when they would eat it. That's when it was considered rich. Prabhupāda: There are so many kadarya things. In Burma, they have got a system, Burmese family. In the door, there is a pot, a big pot. So whatever animal dies, put it there and cover it. So in this way, after some years, they're decomposed, and it becomes liquid, and then it is so decomposed that if you open it, even three miles they smell. So that is mature. Then they take out the liquid and keep it in bottle. That is called naphi . And they stock it, and when there is some feast at home they'll give little that naphi and they'll relish it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Barbers? Prabhupāda: Burma. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Burma. That's the most . . . Prabhupāda: And when you fry lucī , all the other tenants will come, "What you are cooking?" This is practical because we opened . . . my Guru Mahārāja opened a branch in Burma in an apartment. So that Gaurāṅga who was my servant in family life, he was there. He said like this, that "When I fry purī , the ghee smell is there, so many people will come from other apartments, (whispers) 'Oh, what you are cooking? What you are cooking?' " And the naphi , they relish it in feast. So it is a question of taste. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's the ultimate. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I remember as a child in Hong Kong, in the village they would keep big glass jars with snakes, they would put the snakes in jars. And after they were many times soaking in liquid, then they would eat it. Hari-śauri: Pickled snakes. Prabhupāda: Snake. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, keep it in a jar in liquid. Prabhupāda: They put in the jar alive? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No, they catch it, kill it, put it in the jar. Hari-śauri: It's like a pickle. They pickle it. And when they want to eat it, they take. Prabhupāda: So there is poison in the mouth, they cut it? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They cut off the head. Flesh. Prabhupāda: Snake they eat. Even in India there is a class, they eat snake . . . (indistinct) . . . Chinese, they eat. They are Chinese? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. Hong Kong. Prabhupāda: They eat anything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So many abominable things. Hari-śauri: Someone was telling me in Mexico they have a sandwich called tortilla. It has live cockroaches. And as they're eating, the cockroaches are running to get out of the sandwich, and they are pushing them back in and eating it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Africa also they eat live bugs. Cockroaches, dead or alive, anything. Once when we were in Zambia, there was this one African who was cleaning around the house, his name was David. He was about twenty years old. So we swept up his room because it was so filthy—I was there at the time. And there were all these cockroaches in a pile, and we were about to throw them out and he said, "What? You're throwing them out? You mean you're not going to eat them?" (laughter) Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Even . . . (indistinct) . . . there was one big, big professor we met in the college . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's hard to understand that prasādam is . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Not only the Africans, but this big, big professor, she is advocating that people should eat the bugs because they are good protein. She is experimenting different bugs to eat—the worm, the cockroach, the beetle—and she's making a big study, being paid money, how to feed people by eating insects. *Hari-śauri: They're already doing that. In France, you can buy cans of chocolate*-coated ants. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Grasshoppers too. Hari-śauri: Grasshoppers, frog's legs, bumblebees, fried bumblebees you can get. The French eat the most abominable foodstuff. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The English think that way, anyway. Hari-śauri: They all do. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The English think the French eat abominable foods. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: This is the modes of nature, Śrīla Prabhupāda, acting. Prabhupāda: Kadarya bhakṣaṇa . Hari-śauri: It's difficult to imagine what kind of fate we would have had if you hadn't come and started this movement. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everything is so scientific. We've seen practically that as people take up this chanting, that gradually they lose their taste for every other kind of eating. It's a fact. (devotees offer obeisances and prepare to leave) (pause) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I should inform Kīrtanānanda Swami about some of these ideas? Prabhupāda: Yes, if you can arrange with the butcher. Hari-śauri: One thing, the other day they were saying that sometimes when they have this skim milk, and there's some excess after they've fed it to the cows, they throw it away, they use it for fertilizer. Should they do that? Is that all right to use that? Prabhupāda: No. Oh, no. We can use it. Hari-śauri: The skim milk, after they've . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? Explain. Hari-śauri: They have some skim milk. So when they've finished giving it to the devotees and they've finished giving it to the cows, then if there's any extra, they throw it away. Prabhupāda: How give it to the cows? Hari-śauri: They feed it to the cows. Prabhupāda: They eat? Hari-śauri: They drink it. They put it in their feed, whatever. But then if there's any extra, they throw it away, they put on the . . . mix it with fertilizer or whatever for the land. Prabhupāda: It should not be given to the cows. It should be kept, and when it is broken, you get the chānā . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Curd, is it? Hari-śauri: It should be made into curd and yogurt, things like that. Prabhupāda: Yes, not yogurt; chānā , what you call, curd? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like cheese, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Cheese, yes? But it should not be thrown. From cheese you can make so many preparations. Hari-śauri: I'll mention it to Kulādri then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned also about the whey that you get. Prabhupāda: Everything should be utilized. Instead of drinking water, you can drink whey. It is very good for digesting. Whey, put little salt and black pepper, it is good digestant. You can avoid water, drink whey. You can use it for cāpāṭi . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Making dough? Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi , just like you dip the cāpāṭi in ḍāl , you can dip whey. You can save ḍāl preparing expenditure. Nothing of milk product can be wasted. You should learn it. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's what I thought. That's why I was asking. Prabhupāda: Up to the last drop, it can be utilized. Hari-śauri: Everything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Skim milk should not be given to the calves? The calves should get? Prabhupāda: They don't require it. They don't require it. The cow is especially meant for the human being. They can utilize in so many ways, and they should give protection, such an important animal. This is human being. (end) *(Mike Darby was a long*-time admirer of Prabhupāda and was well-informed about Kṛṣṇa consciousness) Mike Darby: . . . don't need education, then, to . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. We are coming from Detroit? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Detroit, Toronto. *Prabhupāda: There are so many factories for four*-wheel vehicles, and there is no factory to educate man to the right path. Perhaps . . . this is our little attempt, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to educate to the right path. We are not getting any help, either from the authority . . . in our own way, as far as possible, we are doing. When people will be educated they will be able to understand who is guru , who is not guru . We can say, but who is going to accept? We say always that they are all rascals, but who will accept our statement? And the state, there had been a department to see what is the qualification of guru , then immediately they would have taken steps. Just like in Kṛṣṇa's time one man falsely presented himself as God, immediately his head was cut off. Pauṇḍraka. So the state must be very strong to punish the miscreant. But there is no such state. Mike Darby: This man, Sun Myung Moon, claims to be the Messiaḥ, the Jesus Christ revived. *Prabhupāda: So it is the duty of the Christians. But they are also . . . what can I say? They are passing resolution according to the time, changing the instruction of Bible. How they can be fixed*-up? Our standard is Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . We accept guru as representative of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he speaks what Kṛṣṇa has spoken, then he is guru . Similarly in Christianity, if they actually take care that whether one is speaking according to the Ten Commandments, if he is living according to the rules and regulations of the Ten Commandments, then he is guru . Now why people accept them? Because they are in ignorance; they do not know who is real and who is fake. But the standard is there. Take for example in the Bible, it is said: "Thou shall not kill." But everyone is killing. Killing is the business of the Christians. They are maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. We are maintaining cows here, and there are others, they are maintaining cows for slaughtering. Why? In these Commandments it is clearly said that "Thou shall not kill." How they will detect? If they are violating themselves the law one, how they will punish the lawbreaker? "Physician, heal thyself." The physician himself is diseased, and he's going to treat other patients. Mike Darby: So they all just continue in a circle to break their own laws. Prabhupāda: What can be done? Mike Darby: Would it help if someone took the Bible and wrote a Vaiṣṇava purport, or tried to simplify it so that people could understand it? The language is difficult for the common man now to understand. *Prabhupāda: That we are spreading. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that you act what Kṛṣṇa, or God, says, that's all. In our Bhagavad*-gītā the guru's description is there, who is guru . Read the Fourth Chapter. Our this all literature, simply guru and disciple: one is instructing, and one is hearing. Hari-śauri: From 4.1? *"The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun*-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu, in turn, instructed it to Ikṣvāku." *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa instructed first to the sun-god. Sun*-god instructed his son, Manu; he instructed his son, Ikṣvāku. In this way things are coming. Then read second verse. Hari-śauri: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost." Prabhupāda: The succession was broken. So similarly, Christ says something. So if that commandment is received by succession, then it goes nicely. But if you break it according to your necessity, then where is the authority? Mike Darby: None. No use if you have the rules there, the law is there, to be passed, and someone forgets them. This is sinful. Prabhupāda: No, they are passing resolution. Suppose there is a law of the state, ordinary, say: "Keep to the right," and in this village all members, they assemble together and pass a resolution that, "No, keep to the left." Will it be accepted? Even they pass resolution, the state will not accept it. Unless it is . . . of course, there should be no change. By anything spoken by God or His son or His representative, that cannot be changed. It is not that Christ said two thousand years ago, "Thou shall not kill," now it can be changed. That is rascaldom. They are doing that. If you do that, then, as it is said here, then it becomes lost. Then there is no meaning. If we take the instruction of God and His representative as temporary, then he is not representative, He is not God. Whatever is spoken by God and His representative, that is eternal. You cannot change by your whims. But that is going on. We . . . I do not wish to discuss very much, but that is actually going on. As people they, by votes in the Parliament, they pass any nonsense thing, so they want to do that in the case of Bible also. Then where is the authority of Bible? If Christ says that, "Thou shall not kill," and if people, say ten thousand people in a meeting, pass resolution, "No, this is wrong," then where is the authority of Bible? Then you become authority. Mike Darby: I see. Then in the Bible, the beginning of it says that God created the heaven and the earth, and yet they say, give the description in Genesis, as the way God created the heaven and the earth. Does this not conform with Brahmā's work? *Prabhupāda: Yes. God has created everything. Just like father, son and the mother. Mother gives birth to the son when the mother is impregnated by the father. This is the law, everyone knows. Now you can see that so many trees are coming from earth. Is it not? Trees and plants and grass. And we eat them, we live. Therefore the earth is mother, and the children are so many. The plants are about two million types of plants. Jalajā nava lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa*-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). Then there are insects, reptiles, then beasts, then man. In this way there are so many living entities. The living entities are produced from the earth. The earth is the mother and the living entities are the sons. Then where is the father? This simple thing, why do they not inquire, "Who is the father?" Mike Darby: Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa, God, or whatever you speak, there must be father. You cannot say that these children, the offsprings, are coming automatically. Then you are a fool if you say like that. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this verse: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fourteenth Chapter. Hari-śauri: Yeah, I've got it. *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Prabhupāda: So how can I deny God? How can you deny your father? If you say: "I've not seen my father," that does not mean that you have no father. Ask your mother, she will reply, "Yes, you have your father." So the argument is forwarded that, "We cannot see God, therefore there is no God." This rascal argument is being forwarded. Because you are speaking, you are existing, there must be father. That is conclusion. Without father, there would have been no possibility of your existence. You are speaking, talking so loudly, "There is no God." This is going on. "Because I do not see God, therefore there is no God." Mike Darby: So many people call themselves Christians, they still try to deny God. *Prabhupāda: Not only Christians, the whole world is now like that. Religion has become a subject matter of laughing. If one is God conscious, religious, he is considered fool number one, not very much advanced. Especially the scientists, the rascal scientists. And they'll bluff you in so many ways that, "Life is produced from chemical." And when we challenge them that, "You make a little egg with chemicals and put it in the incubator and let life come," what will be the answer? The so*-called scientist who says that life is made by combination of chemicals? Anyone can see the composition of egg—a little white and yellow substance. There are many chemicals, they are all white, and there are many chemicals yellow also. Combine together and put it in the incubator and see whether chicken is coming or not. And still they will assert, write big, big books that, "Life is coming out of chemicals." And people are accepting this bluff. So it is very precarious condition of the present world. People want to be bluffed, and there are many bluffers. And they are satisfied that, "I am bluffed by a big bluffer." That's all. This is going on. Mike Darby: These scientists speak about making life with chemicals, yet none of them have even been able to begin their experiments. They can . . . Prabhupāda: I have therefore said: "Make a small egg, then talk of big, big things." Mike Darby: They can make one chemical which leaves the life. But not more. Prabhupāda: Not only that. If you are a sane man, you analyze your body. Now find out where is life. Beginning analysis is the breathing. You take . . . now a man is dead. Somebody says: "Now, because his breathing is stopped, therefore he is dead." So what is this breathing? It is simply a little air. So put some machine, and the air may come and go and give him life. Take anything, breathing, then you take blood, then you take skin, then you take muscle, then you take bone, then take your stool, urine, find out life. Is it possible? Then why do you say that life is combination of chemical? You take this blood, urine and stool, what is called, bone and muscle and air, what is combination, and produce another man. So they are talking this nonsense, and nonsense people are accepting. And they are being paid for, high salary, for talking this nonsense at the cost of the taxpayer. Mike Darby: They get big profit, and no one else does. Prabhupāda: And they are going to the moon planet, Mars planet, and bringing some dust. Mike Darby: They try to keep the people busy by showing them other planets. Prabhupāda: Yes. But busy means they can show all these bluff busy program to the rascals, not to the sane man. Mike Darby: Could you tell us a little about your spiritual master's life? I've never heard anything. Prabhupāda: This is spiritual master—one who is representative of God. And one who speaks what God has said, then he's spiritual master. Mike Darby: But I have never heard anything of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta, and I wondered if you would tell me a little bit about him, if you would. Prabhupāda: What shall I say? He was my spiritual master, and whatever he taught, we are speaking, that's all. We don't talk any nonsense. Mike Darby: Then that's all I have to ask you. Thank you for allowing me your time. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mike Darby: I've waited very long to see you. Prabhupāda: Thank you for your coming. (end) *(Mike Darby was a long*-time admirer of Prabhupāda and was well-informed about Kṛṣṇa consciousness) Mike Darby: . . . don't need education, then, to . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. We are coming from Detroit? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Detroit, Toronto. *Prabhupāda: There are so many factories for four*-wheel vehicles, and there is no factory to educate man to the right path. Perhaps . . . this is our little attempt, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to educate to the right path. We are not getting any help, either from the authority . . . in our own way, as far as possible, we are doing. When people will be educated they will be able to understand who is guru , who is not guru . We can say, but who is going to accept? We say always that they are all rascals, but who will accept our statement? And the state, there had been a department to see what is the qualification of guru , then immediately they would have taken steps. Just like in Kṛṣṇa's time one man falsely presented himself as God, immediately his head was cut off. Pauṇḍraka. So the state must be very strong to punish the miscreant. But there is no such state. Mike Darby: This man, Sun Myung Moon, claims to be the Messiaḥ, the Jesus Christ revived. *Prabhupāda: So it is the duty of the Christians. But they are also . . . what can I say? They are passing resolution according to the time, changing the instruction of Bible. How they can be fixed*-up? Our standard is Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . We accept guru as representative of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he speaks what Kṛṣṇa has spoken, then he is guru . Similarly in Christianity, if they actually take care that whether one is speaking according to the Ten Commandments, if he is living according to the rules and regulations of the Ten Commandments, then he is guru . Now why people accept them? Because they are in ignorance; they do not know who is real and who is fake. But the standard is there. Take for example in the Bible, it is said: "Thou shall not kill." But everyone is killing. Killing is the business of the Christians. They are maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. We are maintaining cows here, and there are others, they are maintaining cows for slaughtering. Why? In these Commandments it is clearly said that "Thou shall not kill." How they will detect? If they are violating themselves the law one, how they will punish the lawbreaker? "Physician, heal thyself." The physician himself is diseased, and he's going to treat other patients. Mike Darby: So they all just continue in a circle to break their own laws. Prabhupāda: What can be done? Mike Darby: Would it help if someone took the Bible and wrote a Vaiṣṇava purport, or tried to simplify it so that people could understand it? The language is difficult for the common man now to understand. *Prabhupāda: That we are spreading. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that you act what Kṛṣṇa, or God, says, that's all. In our Bhagavad*-gītā the guru's description is there, who is guru . Read the Fourth Chapter. Our this all literature, simply guru and disciple: one is instructing, and one is hearing. Hari-śauri: From 4.1? *"The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun*-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu, in turn, instructed it to Ikṣvāku." *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa instructed first to the sun-god. Sun*-god instructed his son, Manu; he instructed his son, Ikṣvāku. In this way things are coming. Then read second verse. Hari-śauri: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost." Prabhupāda: The succession was broken. So similarly, Christ says something. So if that commandment is received by succession, then it goes nicely. But if you break it according to your necessity, then where is the authority? Mike Darby: None. No use if you have the rules there, the law is there, to be passed, and someone forgets them. This is sinful. Prabhupāda: No, they are passing resolution. Suppose there is a law of the state, ordinary, say: "Keep to the right," and in this village all members, they assemble together and pass a resolution that, "No, keep to the left." Will it be accepted? Even they pass resolution, the state will not accept it. Unless it is . . . of course, there should be no change. By anything spoken by God or His son or His representative, that cannot be changed. It is not that Christ said two thousand years ago, "Thou shall not kill," now it can be changed. That is rascaldom. They are doing that. If you do that, then, as it is said here, then it becomes lost. Then there is no meaning. If we take the instruction of God and His representative as temporary, then he is not representative, He is not God. Whatever is spoken by God and His representative, that is eternal. You cannot change by your whims. But that is going on. We . . . I do not wish to discuss very much, but that is actually going on. As people they, by votes in the Parliament, they pass any nonsense thing, so they want to do that in the case of Bible also. Then where is the authority of Bible? If Christ says that, "Thou shall not kill," and if people, say ten thousand people in a meeting, pass resolution, "No, this is wrong," then where is the authority of Bible? Then you become authority. Mike Darby: I see. Then in the Bible, the beginning of it says that God created the heaven and the earth, and yet they say, give the description in Genesis, as the way God created the heaven and the earth. Does this not conform with Brahmā's work? *Prabhupāda: Yes. God has created everything. Just like father, son and the mother. Mother gives birth to the son when the mother is impregnated by the father. This is the law, everyone knows. Now you can see that so many trees are coming from earth. Is it not? Trees and plants and grass. And we eat them, we live. Therefore the earth is mother, and the children are so many. The plants are about two million types of plants. Jalajā nava lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa*-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). Then there are insects, reptiles, then beasts, then man. In this way there are so many living entities. The living entities are produced from the earth. The earth is the mother and the living entities are the sons. Then where is the father? This simple thing, why do they not inquire, "Who is the father?" Mike Darby: Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa, God, or whatever you speak, there must be father. You cannot say that these children, the offsprings, are coming automatically. Then you are a fool if you say like that. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this verse: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fourteenth Chapter. Hari-śauri: Yeah, I've got it. *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Prabhupāda: So how can I deny God? How can you deny your father? If you say: "I've not seen my father," that does not mean that you have no father. Ask your mother, she will reply, "Yes, you have your father." So the argument is forwarded that, "We cannot see God, therefore there is no God." This rascal argument is being forwarded. Because you are speaking, you are existing, there must be father. That is conclusion. Without father, there would have been no possibility of your existence. You are speaking, talking so loudly, "There is no God." This is going on. "Because I do not see God, therefore there is no God." Mike Darby: So many people call themselves Christians, they still try to deny God. *Prabhupāda: Not only Christians, the whole world is now like that. Religion has become a subject matter of laughing. If one is God conscious, religious, he is considered fool number one, not very much advanced. Especially the scientists, the rascal scientists. And they'll bluff you in so many ways that, "Life is produced from chemical." And when we challenge them that, "You make a little egg with chemicals and put it in the incubator and let life come," what will be the answer? The so*-called scientist who says that life is made by combination of chemicals? Anyone can see the composition of egg—a little white and yellow substance. There are many chemicals, they are all white, and there are many chemicals yellow also. Combine together and put it in the incubator and see whether chicken is coming or not. And still they will assert, write big, big books that, "Life is coming out of chemicals." And people are accepting this bluff. So it is very precarious condition of the present world. People want to be bluffed, and there are many bluffers. And they are satisfied that, "I am bluffed by a big bluffer." That's all. This is going on. Mike Darby: These scientists speak about making life with chemicals, yet none of them have even been able to begin their experiments. They can . . . Prabhupāda: I have therefore said: "Make a small egg, then talk of big, big things." Mike Darby: They can make one chemical which leaves the life. But not more. Prabhupāda: Not only that. If you are a sane man, you analyze your body. Now find out where is life. Beginning analysis is the breathing. You take . . . now a man is dead. Somebody says: "Now, because his breathing is stopped, therefore he is dead." So what is this breathing? It is simply a little air. So put some machine, and the air may come and go and give him life. Take anything, breathing, then you take blood, then you take skin, then you take muscle, then you take bone, then take your stool, urine, find out life. Is it possible? Then why do you say that life is combination of chemical? You take this blood, urine and stool, what is called, bone and muscle and air, what is combination, and produce another man. So they are talking this nonsense, and nonsense people are accepting. And they are being paid for, high salary, for talking this nonsense at the cost of the taxpayer. Mike Darby: They get big profit, and no one else does. Prabhupāda: And they are going to the moon planet, Mars planet, and bringing some dust. Mike Darby: They try to keep the people busy by showing them other planets. Prabhupāda: Yes. But busy means they can show all these bluff busy program to the rascals, not to the sane man. Mike Darby: Could you tell us a little about your spiritual master's life? I've never heard anything. Prabhupāda: This is spiritual master—one who is representative of God. And one who speaks what God has said, then he's spiritual master. Mike Darby: But I have never heard anything of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta, and I wondered if you would tell me a little bit about him, if you would. Prabhupāda: What shall I say? He was my spiritual master, and whatever he taught, we are speaking, that's all. We don't talk any nonsense. Mike Darby: Then that's all I have to ask you. Thank you for allowing me your time. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mike Darby: I've waited very long to see you. Prabhupāda: Thank you for your coming. (end) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His last questions are like this. He's asking about proselytizing in the Western countries, preaching. Is there any hope for preaching? He says Hindu dharma, like this. I think everything is arising because of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement and Your Divine Grace's preaching work. Otherwise, they were all sleeping. Hari-śauri: Ten years ago, if they'd have asked these questions before you came to the West, they wouldn't even have thought about going to the West. They are only asking that now because they can see in the last ten years we've been so much successful. *Prabhupāda: They do not know what is bhakti, what is Vedānta. They do not know. Simply aspiring, all after women and money, that's all. First*-class rogues. I know all of them, all first-class rogues, after money and women, beginning from Vivekananda. But they are so popular, if you say openly . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Satyaṁ brūyāt priyaṁ brūyāt mā brūyāt satyam apriyam (Sanskrit Proverb). "You can speak truth, but don't speak which is unpalatable." But we speak in a different way. And directly we don't speak. People will be angry. They're already fools and rascals. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of the others are trying to make some compromise. Prabhupāda: That is also bad. How we can make compromise? Here is gold, here is iron. How you can compromise? Can we accept iron as gold? "All right, let us accept." (laughs) Where is the possibility? Hari-śauri: They don't see that clearly. They are looking at their iron and thinking it's gold. *Prabhupāda: They are seeing . . . they're tested. I don't make any compromise. All my speaking is also no compromise. Here is guru , here is Kṛṣṇa, here is God, here is Vedānta. Real version they neglect, and they stick to the rascal's version, Śaṅkara's version, Śārīraka*-bhāṣya . All over India, they are reading Śārīraka-bhāṣya . Hari-śauri: Rāmānujācārya is very well known in India, so why don't they read his commentary? Prabhupāda: They hate Rāmānujācārya, because he's Vaiṣṇava. Hari-śauri: Because he doesn't allow them to speculate. *Prabhupāda: He is very strict. He is a stubborn enemy of Śaṅkarācārya. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas . Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, declare it: māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa ( CC Madhya 6.169). "If you hear the interpretation of Māyāvādīs, then you are doomed. You have no hope for spiritual advancement." This is the statement. Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa . Finished. Your spiritual life is finished. You can write this also, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction is strictly to avoid the so-called Vedāntists. (indistinct background discussion as devotees look for pen) Hari-śauri: All these impersonalists, they always represent themselves as being big Vedāntists. They don't know anything. That, erm . . . Prabhupāda: And people, leaders of India, they are thinking, "Where is this Vedāntist?" In foreign countries, what is their position? *Hari-śauri: Somehow or another, they seem to think that the Vedānta is something better than any of the other śāstra . Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam doesn't seem to be so popular in India as Vedānta or something like that. *Prabhupāda: It is very popular amongst the Māyāvāda people. You speak also . . . now the so*-called Vedāntists, they are speaking on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , distorting. Akhoyananda . . . Akandananda, Karpatri, the rascals. Because they have no subject matter to speak, they are distorting the meaning of Bhāgavata . (pause) Prabhupāda: This boy (referring to Mike Darby) appears to be nice, this fat boy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kīrtanānanda said he's the only local boy that has taken interest. He's from hereabouts. Prabhupāda: He said that "I've wanted to see you since a long time." So, keep friendship with. Giving them prasādam ? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he took. They distributed . . . Kīrtanānanda Swami cut up some watermelon, and we distributed it to the guests. (pause) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, shall I lock this up? Prabhupāda: Hmm. (end) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His last questions are like this. He's asking about proselytizing in the Western countries, preaching. Is there any hope for preaching? He says Hindu dharma, like this. I think everything is arising because of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement and Your Divine Grace's preaching work. Otherwise, they were all sleeping. Hari-śauri: Ten years ago, if they'd have asked these questions before you came to the West, they wouldn't even have thought about going to the West. They are only asking that now because they can see in the last ten years we've been so much successful. *Prabhupāda: They do not know what is bhakti, what is Vedānta. They do not know. Simply aspiring, all after women and money, that's all. First*-class rogues. I know all of them, all first-class rogues, after money and women, beginning from Vivekananda. But they are so popular, if you say openly . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Satyaṁ brūyāt priyaṁ brūyāt mā brūyāt satyam apriyam (Sanskrit Proverb). "You can speak truth, but don't speak which is unpalatable." But we speak in a different way. And directly we don't speak. People will be angry. They're already fools and rascals. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of the others are trying to make some compromise. Prabhupāda: That is also bad. How we can make compromise? Here is gold, here is iron. How you can compromise? Can we accept iron as gold? "All right, let us accept." (laughs) Where is the possibility? Hari-śauri: They don't see that clearly. They are looking at their iron and thinking it's gold. *Prabhupāda: They are seeing . . . they're tested. I don't make any compromise. All my speaking is also no compromise. Here is guru , here is Kṛṣṇa, here is God, here is Vedānta. Real version they neglect, and they stick to the rascal's version, Śaṅkara's version, Śārīraka*-bhāṣya . All over India, they are reading Śārīraka-bhāṣya . Hari-śauri: Rāmānujācārya is very well known in India, so why don't they read his commentary? Prabhupāda: They hate Rāmānujācārya, because he's Vaiṣṇava. Hari-śauri: Because he doesn't allow them to speculate. *Prabhupāda: He is very strict. He is a stubborn enemy of Śaṅkarācārya. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas . Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, declare it: māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa ( CC Madhya 6.169). "If you hear the interpretation of Māyāvādīs, then you are doomed. You have no hope for spiritual advancement." This is the statement. Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa . Finished. Your spiritual life is finished. You can write this also, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction is strictly to avoid the so-called Vedāntists. (indistinct background discussion as devotees look for pen) Hari-śauri: All these impersonalists, they always represent themselves as being big Vedāntists. They don't know anything. That, erm . . . Prabhupāda: And people, leaders of India, they are thinking, "Where is this Vedāntist?" In foreign countries, what is their position? *Hari-śauri: Somehow or another, they seem to think that the Vedānta is something better than any of the other śāstra . Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam doesn't seem to be so popular in India as Vedānta or something like that. *Prabhupāda: It is very popular amongst the Māyāvāda people. You speak also . . . now the so*-called Vedāntists, they are speaking on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , distorting. Akhoyananda . . . Akandananda, Karpatri, the rascals. Because they have no subject matter to speak, they are distorting the meaning of Bhāgavata . (pause) Prabhupāda: This boy (referring to Mike Darby) appears to be nice, this fat boy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kīrtanānanda said he's the only local boy that has taken interest. He's from hereabouts. Prabhupāda: He said that "I've wanted to see you since a long time." So, keep friendship with. Giving them prasādam ? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he took. They distributed . . . Kīrtanānanda Swami cut up some watermelon, and we distributed it to the guests. (pause) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, shall I lock this up? Prabhupāda: Hmm. (end) (in car from airport) Prabhupāda: . . . live? Is he finished, or if somewhere he is still living, nobody knows. You are keeping his memorial, but where is the actual person, they do not know. Suppose I have come here, and all of a sudden I go away, keeping my shirt and coat. And if you worship my shirt and coat and do not take care where I have gone, is that very good intelligence? Bṛṣākapi: No, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: This is going on. Bṛṣākapi: We will worship your shirt and coat, though. Prabhupāda: Lincoln, if you worship . . . where is Lincoln's temple? In Paris, I saw one park, Napoleon Bonaparte. You have been there? Rūpānuga: Yes, Paris. Prabhupāda: They identified "Napoleon is France." France is there, but where is Napoleon? They do not consider like this. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ ( SB 7.5.31). Blind man be happy that Lincoln was here, that's all. Where he is now? Or he's finished. If he's finished, why you are worshiping his shirt and coat? What is the answer? What is their answer? If he's finished, what is the use of worshiping his shirt and coat? Vipina: They say that what he accomplished, although it may not be the final answer, it was a step forward, and therefore he should be worshiped. *Prabhupāda: Then his worship must be . . . that means after furnishing he is also finished? That is ignorance. That is not the fact. If he's finished, then what was the purpose of furnishing? There are so many questions in this connection, but they cannot understand. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). This is ignorance. This kind of civilization is civilization of darkness. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. Rūpānuga: It looks like the devotees are the only people who are enlightened in this dark world. By your mercy, only the devotees can actually see anything properly and understand the condition. Prabhupāda: In Russia, that Kruschev, he was . . . now, where he has gone, nobody knows. Finished. Nobody knows. Hari-śauri: They retired him. They gave him a small place just outside Moscow. Prabhupāda: You know that? Hari-śauri: Yes, there was a story about five years after he got kicked out of office. He was just doing nothing, living by himself. Prabhupāda: And what he has done? (laughter) Nothing, and what he has done? Bṛṣākapi: They want to worship Kṛṣṇa, but they don't know how. *Prabhupāda: They don't want to worship anyone. They want to worship their senses, that's all. Sense gratification. What is dictated by the senses, they agree, that's all. Servant of the senses. In the material world nobody worships nobody. Everyone serves his own senses, "I like it." That's all. There is a Bengali song, cokhe yadi lage bhalo keno dekhbo na "If it satisfies my eyes, why shall I not see? I shall see." This is the sum*-substance of . . . cokhe yadi lage bhalo keno dekhbo na. Everyone wants sense gratification, to be servant of the senses. If the senses want "Do this," he will do it. And our Movement is that we shall not hear the dictation of the senses, we shall do what Kṛṣṇa says. That is just opposite. So long I am carrying out the orders of the senses, then I am involved in this material birth, death, transmigration. Today I am running on this nice car. Next I can stand up here as a tree. Who can check it? After death you are completely under the . . . your life also completely under the laws of nature. So there is no discussion, no understanding, no knowledge about this. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to change our body. What kind of body we are going to get, nobody knows. "This life is everything. This body is everything." Very risky. They do not inquire even wherefrom this body has come. They are also coming. They are also living. They are also eating. The trees, they are also eating water. Vipina: Our distributors were in the airport not long ago, and they distributed a book to a man who has just recently written a book called The Fourth Kingdom . And he stopped off to visit our temple and talk with us, because he was impressed with the devotees and the literature, and he would like to come and speak to you. Prabhupāda: You have arranged some engagement? *Vipina: Yes. If it's all right with you, he'll come. He's very nice, but he has some mixed*-up ideas. *Prabhupāda: Everyone has mixed*-up ideas because nobody is properly trained up. Some ideas they have got, inquiries they have got. But unless one comes to the right person, he cannot be enlightened. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore one must approach the proper guru . Rūpānuga: Everyone has accepted the wrong authority. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rūpānuga: Everyone has accepted the wrong authority. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he's misled by sense gratification, so even he approaches a guru , if the guru cannot satisfy his senses, he doesn't like. Because he's under the subjugation of senses, he expects that guru also will satisfy his senses, then he is guru . If guru says something against his sense gratification, "Ah, he is not guru ." (laughs) Guru also must be a person who can satisfy your senses. The disease is sense gratification. Vipina: After he took those books home and he read them, he wrote us a letter, and he said he thought you were very intelligent man and would like to speak to you. So we'll see. Maybe he can hear. Prabhupāda: Yes, we are speaking something not of this world, but we are pointing out the defects of this world. "This world" means the world of sense gratification. Bṛṣākapi: The karmīs , they say: "What is the matter with sense gratification?" They say they like sense gratification; it's very good. Prabhupāda: Very good, but if you can continue it. But you rascal, you cannot continue it. "Very good, I am now president," but why you are kicked out? Huh? Now, what about the Nixon? Very good, he was president, now he's kicked out, what is his position? He doesn't think that, that "I may be kicked out from my position at any moment. So what is the value of my sense gratification?" He was gratifying his senses. As he liked, he was doing. But now he's kicked out, what he can do now? Why does he not think that? Take the, I mean, living example. Who wants to be kicked out from the presidency? But now he's kicked out. He's living also. He's not in that position. That Kruschev, he's not in that position. Why does he not think that, "Any moment I'll be kicked out." And what is that enforcement that kicks out? Bṛṣākapi: Why don't they think like that, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Hari-śauri: That's due to too much sinful activity? Too much sinful activity, that they can't think that there's some divine influence? *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no education. Fools. They're childish. A child is playing, he's enjoying, but he does not know that he has to take education, he has to grow up, he'll become a young man. Sometimes, if he's not educated, he'll suffer. He doesn't know. He's playing, that's all. The father says: "My dear child, you read." "No, I like playing." "All right." Similarly, they are childish, foolish, without any responsibility. The animals are doing like that. Ṛṣabhadeva says: "No, no, no. This life is not for this purpose." Nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). Simply for sense gratification so much trouble, like hogs and dogs—this is not life. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvam . Just practice austerity to purify your existence. Your existence is not purified. You are put in a position. If you like, that's all right. But because you are not in a purified position, you'll be kicked out at any moment. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). You are very proud to have your position, but nature will kick you out at any moment. But you cannot do anything. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate. He's foolish. He's thinking, "I have everything. I can remain in this presidential position as I like." That is not the position. That is foolishness; that is childish. He does not know what is his position. But he wants position. That means there is a good position for him, but not here. That he does not know. Everyone is hankering after good position, but where is that good position, that he does not know. Everyone is hankering after water, but he is going after water in the desert. That is animalism. The animal runs after the water in the desert, and a human being, he knows, "No, this is not water; this is reflection." The water is there, that's a fact, but not here. That is human . . . it is reflection of water. Reflection water means the water is there, but it is not here. Similarly, good position is there, but not here. Here it is simply a reflection of that position. That he does not understand. Where is the actual water, wherefrom the reflection comes, that he does not know. Falsely thinking that, "Here is everything." Very big, big scientists, they are thinking only on this planet there is life, and all planets are vacant. Too lazy, late. Bṛṣākapi: They all think like that, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: They are such rascals. They have no common sense that this is also one of the planets, it is filled up with life and everything, and why the other planets should be vacant? If there is rock and sand, then why not other things? Here is also rock and sand and other things also. But these rascals, they think there is simply rock and sand, nothing else. And they are misleading. What is the reason? This planet is filled up with life, and other planets vacant. All right, they can go and colonize there. They say it is not possible. Then why do you go there, spend money? This is going on. Vipina: Prabhupāda, these . . . nobody wants to do the wrong thing. Nobody wants to go up . . . Prabhupāda: They are doing wrong thing every moment. Vipina: Yes, but I mean no one works to do the wrong thing; they work to do the right thing. Prabhupāda: But they'll not take the right thing. If you say the right thing, they will come to beat you with shoes, run away. Hari-śauri: They don't have any idea what the right thing is. Everything they're doing is wrong. Prabhupāda: They want right thing, but they have no idea of right thing. And if you say the right thing, they will not accept it. This is their disease. Rūpānuga: That is more than māyā ; that is their heart. Prabhupāda: That is called māyā . Rūpānuga: That is māyā . Prabhupāda: Yes. They are suffering, and if you give him the remedy that he'll not have to suffer, he'll not take it. Rūpānuga: But that rejection, that is their choice of the heart, isn't it? I mean, they have a choice to make? Prabhupāda: No, no. That is the same thing. Just the child is playing, but if you say: "My dear child, you please take education, otherwise you'll suffer," "Oh, I don't . . ." Child does not like. He wants to play. That is childish, or foolish. Rūpānuga: He doesn't want to be educated. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This human life is meant for becoming educated about Brahman. They will not take it. They want to remain animals, eating and sleeping. This animal life, that's all. Eat nicely, sleep nicely, have sex life nicely, defend nicely, that's all. Nicely, according to the standard of the body. Here in America, to have a conveyance nicely like a car like this, but in Indian village, a bullock cart is nicely. So this nicely and that nicely, according to the body. You have got this American body, this is nicely. He has got Indian body, that is nicely. But the feeling of niceness is there and here. We are having sex in a very nice apartment, decorated and so on, so on, and a dog is having sex on the street. But the pleasure of sex life is both the same. But we are thinking this is nice. But that is not the fact. The niceness, the feelings of niceness, is there and here. Vipina: And so much suffering. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply you have to take so much trouble. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja's instruction. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām (SB 7.6.3). The sense gratification, the standard of sense gratification, is deha-yogena dehinām , according to the body. The pig is eating very nicely stool because he has got a body like that. A human being will not take that. But the pleasure of eating, either stool or rasagullā , the same. Rūpānuga: You gave the example of a gold pot and an iron pot and a diamond pot. A diamond pot was a demigod, and the gold pot was a human being, and the iron pot the animal. But they are thinking that the food is more palatable in a different pot. But it is still the same food. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: But they are simply interested with the pots. External. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye . . . (SB 7.5.31). They are thinking by changing the pot the advancement of civilization will increase. And that is going on. Just like the America. You have got very big, big roads, nice cars, everything. You are changing the pot, but the eatable is the same. Vipina: I heard a nice example given the other day about how the living entities are suffering. A black widow, male and female black widow spiders, have sex life. After the sex life the female spider consumes the male spider, eats him alive. Prabhupāda: What's that? Spider. Vipina: Black widow. She will eat him after sex, kill him. Prabhupāda: (laughs) So we are also killing by and by, and she kills immediately. That is the difference. Vipina: Yes, little by little. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Tulasī dāsa has said that. Din kā dakinī rāt kā bāghinī pālak pālak rahu cuṣe, duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhagilipu sei , that there is an animal who is at daytime a witch and at nighttime she's tigress. So her only business is to suck the blood. But people are so mad that everyone keeping that tigress. Duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhagini . Every home, there is a tigress like that. Hari-śauri: That's their wife. Rūpānuga: Their best friend. Prabhupāda: (laughs) At daytime, witch, and nighttime, tigress. This is her picture. But people know it, and still, they keep one tigress at home. Duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhag . . . so that lady spider and lord spider, that is everywhere. But here gradually, and they are immediately. That is the difference. The process is the same. People want to enjoy by sex, by seminal discharge, but what is this? His blood. By fifteen drops of blood, or something like that, one drop of semina is created. Rūpānuga: Forty drops of blood, one drop of semina. *Prabhupāda: Forty drops. Yes. So one ounce of semina discharge means forty ounce of blood sucked. This is a fact. So he is enjoying his own blood, and he's thinking, "I am enjoying." Therefore he's compared with the camel. Śva*-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Camel eats the thorny twigs, and the thorns pricks the tongue and blood comes out. So after twig is mixed with blood, it becomes tasteful, and he thinks thorn is very nice. (laughs) So thorn is not nice; nice is his blood, own blood. But he, because he's animal, he's thinking it is very nice. Vipina: So many people that run their life that way, they realize that, "This woman is not making me happy. She's making me work, and I'm miserable, and I don't like it," but they keep on. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore he's described as mad, bhora. Bhora means mad. Duniya sab bhorakhobe gare gare bhagini . Vipina: We're almost there, Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: In the heavenly planets the woman is described that during summer they are very warm, the body is very warm, and during winter . . . er . . . summer the body is very cool of the woman, and during summer the body is cool and during winter the body is very warm. That is the nature of the woman in heavenly planets. And their breast is very, very tight and strongly built. And their youthfulness never diminishes. These are the description of the heavenly woman. Bhāgavata , everything is there. Mohinī*-mūrti began to play on the balls, and the description of the breast is there and . . . what is called this portion? Hari-śauri: Armpit. Prabhupāda: Armpit. Yes. So she was playing ball one hand, and one hand a bunch of hair would become, immediately she was taking care. So with this beauty Lord Śiva become mad. As soon as one man sees the breast and this armpit of young woman, then he is finished. (laughs) Vipina: So what happens to us? Prabhupāda: It is every man that this is the position. This is the position. And so long we will be charmed with these things, he has to take birth again and again. Viṣayināṁ saṁdarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca. Vipina: This is the property, Prabhupāda. Excuse me. This is your home, and the devotees are here for you. Hari-śauri: I can lock it now if you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Bṛṣākapi: Would you like some warm milk, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. Rūpānuga: This is for your servants. Push the button, they hear in the back. Vipina: Cold water for you, here, Prabhupāda. Cold water here if you want some. Prabhupāda: Cold water. Hari-śauri: They are bringing some hot milk, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Vipina: Also something interesting about this water, Prabhupāda. It's all natural spring water, it's not city water. Underground water, fresh water. Rūpānuga: It's quiet here. Prabhupāda: It is nice. Bṛṣākapi: There's a swimming pool here, Prabhupāda. You have a garden by the pool, you can take your massage there. Prabhupāda: This is your own house? What you have paid for it? *Rūpānuga: Well, now we are leasing with option to buy. We have ten*-year lease. We can purchase anytime before ten years. Prabhupāda: Price is fixed? Rūpānuga: Six hundred fifty thousand. But all money paid for rent goes toward purchase. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Rūpānuga: How much a month? *Vipina: Right around now, it's about twenty*-five hundred, and it will average that for ten years. At the end of ten years, it will drop to like twenty-two, twenty-one, which is . . . it will be worth much more in ten years. It's very good. And he also is responsible . . . the owner is responsible for any major malfunctions in any equipment on the property. We just had your water pump replaced for six hundred dollars, and he had to pay because of our contract. Rūpānuga: It is an exceptional arrangement. Bṛṣākapi: No interest. Prabhupāda: How many rooms? Bṛṣākapi: Several buildings, Prabhupāda. We have one big temple building down there, very gorgeous, with big kitchen. Prabhupāda: I may see now? Rūpānuga: If you like. Prabhupāda: Or it is closed. Rūpānuga: Deities are resting. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Rūpānuga: In the morning I think it would be better to see things. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bṛṣākapi: We can walk on the property. Prabhupāda: Morning walk. Rūpānuga: Jaya . Vipina: The kitchen is governmentally approved, so that if we decide to have a big festival, we can cook and distribute publicly without any problems. Prabhupāda: These furnitures were there? Rūpānuga: No, this is all we have purchased. Bṛṣākapi: For you, Prabhupāda. Rūpānuga: The doors also, lights—everything we have purchased. Prabhupāda: Oh. You had to utilize so much money. Rūpānuga: But this is Washington, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Everything . . . this neighborhood is one of the most wealthy neighborhoods in the country. It is very big. We did not think we would be able to get in so easy. But now the people are appreciating how we have fixed up the property, so they have accepted us into the community. But it is very wealthy. You will see some of the new houses being built. Prabhupāda: They have seen our books? Rūpānuga: I don't know. Have you made some . . .? Well, basically we've been just getting them used to us. We have not approached them so much, because we've only been here a short time. How long have we been here altogether? Bṛṣākapi: Four months. Three to four months. Rūpānuga: In four months, they have transformed this. Prabhupāda: That's good. This wooden wall was there? Vipina: Yes. We refinished them. Bṛṣākapi: It was all dirty. Prabhupāda: It was not used. Rūpānuga: It was simply for office, like that. And the temple building was a gymnasium. It used to be a gymnasium, and we have converted the whole thing. Vipina: That was one reason that we were very much attracted to the property. The property itself was not very beautiful when we came, but the gym was built, and we saw it as an immediate temple where we could hold kīrtana and preach. So we then made a contract, and the fish bit. Prabhupāda: Nobody was taking it. Vipina: No one was taking it. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Our Detroit property is like that. Rūpānuga: White elephant. Prabhupāda: Nobody was taking, but it was quite suitable for us. And that is the finest property. You have seen it? Rūpānuga: I have not been there. I have seen photographs. Bṛṣākapi: I have seen it. Prabhupāda: Is it not? Bṛṣākapi: It is the finest, the finest. Prabhupāda: And we have got very cheap. One room will cost three hundred thousand, it is so costly. They said they spent about two millions dollars fifty years ago. Vipina: Fifty years ago. That's ten, twenty million now. Prabhupāda: But nobody was taking. Vipina: Haribol Narottama. Narottama: Hot milk. And there is fruit, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There is fruit also. (devotee enters; offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: Come on. Jaya . (pause) Prabhupāda: You take. That's all. What is this? Devotee: Kiwi from New Zealand. (Prabhupāda is eating during the conversation) Vipina: Those are Narottama's rasagullās over there, Prabhupāda. Narottama's rasagullā . Hari-śauri: He's learned how to make Indian sweets very expertly. He was making them in Detroit. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Bṛṣākapi: Jaya , Prabhupāda. That's wonderful, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where he is going now? Hari-śauri: Ready to arrange the luggage. Vipina: This is real prasādam distribution. Prabhupāda: Very nice. (Prabhupāda continues to eat) Vipina: Those are melons, Prabhupāda. Watermelons, sweet melons. They are the best. Prabhupāda: I take America as my fatherland. India is motherland, and here is fatherland. (laughs) So many fathers. My father was very affectionate to me. He would do everything for me. I lost one father, I have got so many fathers. Vipina: Jaya . We'd like to keep it that way, Prabhupāda. If you'd let us, we'd like to keep it that way. Bṛṣākapi: We want to take care of you forever, Prabhupāda. Vipina: What do you say, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That . . . everyone appreciated that in India, that the American fathers keeping him. Just like keeping him in cotton. (laughs) They admit that. Where is salt? There are many flies here? Vipina: Not many, and we have screens also in the windows, so there shouldn't be too much disturbance from them. Prabhupāda: Fruits are so nice. Kṛṣṇa has given fruit. They are locally grown? Bṛṣākapi: No, Prabhupāda. Not too many. They all come from other parts of the country. Prabhupāda: Your country? Bṛṣākapi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not outside. Not like England, they have to import from . . . this is a very good example. Just like salt, we require. A little salt will increase the taste. But because it is absolutely necessary for eating, salt—everyone eats salt; *nobody can avoid salt—it does not mean I shall eat too much. If I take this whole salt pot and put into . . . because "It is very good," that is foolishness. Similarly, sense gratification, so long we have got this material body, we require little. But because it is tasty, "Let us take it, whole pot," that is mistake. This is going on. This foolishness is going on. Sex life is good, simply take sex life, go on, and spoil your whole life. That is going on. If everything is accepted in regulative principle—little salt, that's all—that's very nice. But as soon as you think "It is very nice. Let me take simply this," then it is spoiled. That is wanted. We don't reject anything, but accept in a regular way. Flesh eaters? All right, you want flesh? "No, I want flesh, but I want this big cow." Why not less important animal? There are so many other animals. The goats are there, the lambs are there, the hogs are there. Take them. Why Kṛṣṇa says go*-rakṣya ? It is a very important animal. It will give you brain substance, this rasagullā . Therefore Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . But this rascal has no knowledge. The cows gives us milk, very nutritious. "No, eat the whole cow. Then all nutrition will come." This is their intelligence. Rubbish civilization. Why Kṛṣṇa has recommended go-rakṣya ? He never said that other animal. If you are fond of eating flesh, you take other animals, not the cow. Give protection, take milk from it, and prepare nice preparation, that will be good for brain, for your mind. Apart from . . . there is no question of religious sentiment. From practical. Rūpānuga: Just the medical point of view, it is right. Prabhupāda: You see. But they are so fools, rascals, they'll not accept it. And they'll give example, "Christ ate fish" somewhere. "Therefore we have to maintain the slaughterhouse." Because Christ ate fish, therefore we have to maintain slaughterhouse. Give the dog a bad name and hang it. Huh? This is going on. So we have to make vigorous propaganda for all this foolishness. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. So we are giving the best civilization, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. With little patience and perseverance you work on it, people will take it. Because there is nothing adulteration; it is pure. Rest assured, if you follow the principles and push on according to the prescription I have given, it will be accepted. May take some time. Rūpānuga: But they will appreciate the purity. Prabhupāda: It is pure. Actually, these fruits and some milk preparation are sufficient. You don't require any flesh. Is the flesh comparable with this nice fruit? (pause) Prabhupāda: Come on. Sit down. (distributing prasādam ) Devotee: Is there one for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, I am not so fool that I shall give everything. (laughter) (end) (in car from airport) Prabhupāda: . . . live? Is he finished, or if somewhere he is still living, nobody knows. You are keeping his memorial, but where is the actual person, they do not know. Suppose I have come here, and all of a sudden I go away, keeping my shirt and coat. And if you worship my shirt and coat and do not take care where I have gone, is that very good intelligence? Bṛṣākapi: No, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: This is going on. Bṛṣākapi: We will worship your shirt and coat, though. Prabhupāda: Lincoln, if you worship . . . where is Lincoln's temple? In Paris, I saw one park, Napoleon Bonaparte. You have been there? Rūpānuga: Yes, Paris. Prabhupāda: They identified "Napoleon is France." France is there, but where is Napoleon? They do not consider like this. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ ( SB 7.5.31). Blind man be happy that Lincoln was here, that's all. Where he is now? Or he's finished. If he's finished, why you are worshiping his shirt and coat? What is the answer? What is their answer? If he's finished, what is the use of worshiping his shirt and coat? Vipina: They say that what he accomplished, although it may not be the final answer, it was a step forward, and therefore he should be worshiped. *Prabhupāda: Then his worship must be . . . that means after furnishing he is also finished? That is ignorance. That is not the fact. If he's finished, then what was the purpose of furnishing? There are so many questions in this connection, but they cannot understand. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). This is ignorance. This kind of civilization is civilization of darkness. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. Rūpānuga: It looks like the devotees are the only people who are enlightened in this dark world. By your mercy, only the devotees can actually see anything properly and understand the condition. Prabhupāda: In Russia, that Kruschev, he was . . . now, where he has gone, nobody knows. Finished. Nobody knows. Hari-śauri: They retired him. They gave him a small place just outside Moscow. Prabhupāda: You know that? Hari-śauri: Yes, there was a story about five years after he got kicked out of office. He was just doing nothing, living by himself. Prabhupāda: And what he has done? (laughter) Nothing, and what he has done? Bṛṣākapi: They want to worship Kṛṣṇa, but they don't know how. *Prabhupāda: They don't want to worship anyone. They want to worship their senses, that's all. Sense gratification. What is dictated by the senses, they agree, that's all. Servant of the senses. In the material world nobody worships nobody. Everyone serves his own senses, "I like it." That's all. There is a Bengali song, cokhe yadi lage bhalo keno dekhbo na "If it satisfies my eyes, why shall I not see? I shall see." This is the sum*-substance of . . . cokhe yadi lage bhalo keno dekhbo na. Everyone wants sense gratification, to be servant of the senses. If the senses want "Do this," he will do it. And our Movement is that we shall not hear the dictation of the senses, we shall do what Kṛṣṇa says. That is just opposite. So long I am carrying out the orders of the senses, then I am involved in this material birth, death, transmigration. Today I am running on this nice car. Next I can stand up here as a tree. Who can check it? After death you are completely under the . . . your life also completely under the laws of nature. So there is no discussion, no understanding, no knowledge about this. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to change our body. What kind of body we are going to get, nobody knows. "This life is everything. This body is everything." Very risky. They do not inquire even wherefrom this body has come. They are also coming. They are also living. They are also eating. The trees, they are also eating water. Vipina: Our distributors were in the airport not long ago, and they distributed a book to a man who has just recently written a book called The Fourth Kingdom . And he stopped off to visit our temple and talk with us, because he was impressed with the devotees and the literature, and he would like to come and speak to you. Prabhupāda: You have arranged some engagement? *Vipina: Yes. If it's all right with you, he'll come. He's very nice, but he has some mixed*-up ideas. *Prabhupāda: Everyone has mixed*-up ideas because nobody is properly trained up. Some ideas they have got, inquiries they have got. But unless one comes to the right person, he cannot be enlightened. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore one must approach the proper guru . Rūpānuga: Everyone has accepted the wrong authority. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rūpānuga: Everyone has accepted the wrong authority. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he's misled by sense gratification, so even he approaches a guru , if the guru cannot satisfy his senses, he doesn't like. Because he's under the subjugation of senses, he expects that guru also will satisfy his senses, then he is guru . If guru says something against his sense gratification, "Ah, he is not guru ." (laughs) Guru also must be a person who can satisfy your senses. The disease is sense gratification. Vipina: After he took those books home and he read them, he wrote us a letter, and he said he thought you were very intelligent man and would like to speak to you. So we'll see. Maybe he can hear. Prabhupāda: Yes, we are speaking something not of this world, but we are pointing out the defects of this world. "This world" means the world of sense gratification. Bṛṣākapi: The karmīs , they say: "What is the matter with sense gratification?" They say they like sense gratification; it's very good. Prabhupāda: Very good, but if you can continue it. But you rascal, you cannot continue it. "Very good, I am now president," but why you are kicked out? Huh? Now, what about the Nixon? Very good, he was president, now he's kicked out, what is his position? He doesn't think that, that "I may be kicked out from my position at any moment. So what is the value of my sense gratification?" He was gratifying his senses. As he liked, he was doing. But now he's kicked out, what he can do now? Why does he not think that? Take the, I mean, living example. Who wants to be kicked out from the presidency? But now he's kicked out. He's living also. He's not in that position. That Kruschev, he's not in that position. Why does he not think that, "Any moment I'll be kicked out." And what is that enforcement that kicks out? Bṛṣākapi: Why don't they think like that, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Hari-śauri: That's due to too much sinful activity? Too much sinful activity, that they can't think that there's some divine influence? *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no education. Fools. They're childish. A child is playing, he's enjoying, but he does not know that he has to take education, he has to grow up, he'll become a young man. Sometimes, if he's not educated, he'll suffer. He doesn't know. He's playing, that's all. The father says: "My dear child, you read." "No, I like playing." "All right." Similarly, they are childish, foolish, without any responsibility. The animals are doing like that. Ṛṣabhadeva says: "No, no, no. This life is not for this purpose." Nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). Simply for sense gratification so much trouble, like hogs and dogs—this is not life. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvam . Just practice austerity to purify your existence. Your existence is not purified. You are put in a position. If you like, that's all right. But because you are not in a purified position, you'll be kicked out at any moment. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). You are very proud to have your position, but nature will kick you out at any moment. But you cannot do anything. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate. He's foolish. He's thinking, "I have everything. I can remain in this presidential position as I like." That is not the position. That is foolishness; that is childish. He does not know what is his position. But he wants position. That means there is a good position for him, but not here. That he does not know. Everyone is hankering after good position, but where is that good position, that he does not know. Everyone is hankering after water, but he is going after water in the desert. That is animalism. The animal runs after the water in the desert, and a human being, he knows, "No, this is not water; this is reflection." The water is there, that's a fact, but not here. That is human . . . it is reflection of water. Reflection water means the water is there, but it is not here. Similarly, good position is there, but not here. Here it is simply a reflection of that position. That he does not understand. Where is the actual water, wherefrom the reflection comes, that he does not know. Falsely thinking that, "Here is everything." Very big, big scientists, they are thinking only on this planet there is life, and all planets are vacant. Too lazy, late. Bṛṣākapi: They all think like that, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: They are such rascals. They have no common sense that this is also one of the planets, it is filled up with life and everything, and why the other planets should be vacant? If there is rock and sand, then why not other things? Here is also rock and sand and other things also. But these rascals, they think there is simply rock and sand, nothing else. And they are misleading. What is the reason? This planet is filled up with life, and other planets vacant. All right, they can go and colonize there. They say it is not possible. Then why do you go there, spend money? This is going on. Vipina: Prabhupāda, these . . . nobody wants to do the wrong thing. Nobody wants to go up . . . Prabhupāda: They are doing wrong thing every moment. Vipina: Yes, but I mean no one works to do the wrong thing; they work to do the right thing. Prabhupāda: But they'll not take the right thing. If you say the right thing, they will come to beat you with shoes, run away. Hari-śauri: They don't have any idea what the right thing is. Everything they're doing is wrong. Prabhupāda: They want right thing, but they have no idea of right thing. And if you say the right thing, they will not accept it. This is their disease. Rūpānuga: That is more than māyā ; that is their heart. Prabhupāda: That is called māyā . Rūpānuga: That is māyā . Prabhupāda: Yes. They are suffering, and if you give him the remedy that he'll not have to suffer, he'll not take it. Rūpānuga: But that rejection, that is their choice of the heart, isn't it? I mean, they have a choice to make? Prabhupāda: No, no. That is the same thing. Just the child is playing, but if you say: "My dear child, you please take education, otherwise you'll suffer," "Oh, I don't . . ." Child does not like. He wants to play. That is childish, or foolish. Rūpānuga: He doesn't want to be educated. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This human life is meant for becoming educated about Brahman. They will not take it. They want to remain animals, eating and sleeping. This animal life, that's all. Eat nicely, sleep nicely, have sex life nicely, defend nicely, that's all. Nicely, according to the standard of the body. Here in America, to have a conveyance nicely like a car like this, but in Indian village, a bullock cart is nicely. So this nicely and that nicely, according to the body. You have got this American body, this is nicely. He has got Indian body, that is nicely. But the feeling of niceness is there and here. We are having sex in a very nice apartment, decorated and so on, so on, and a dog is having sex on the street. But the pleasure of sex life is both the same. But we are thinking this is nice. But that is not the fact. The niceness, the feelings of niceness, is there and here. Vipina: And so much suffering. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply you have to take so much trouble. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja's instruction. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām (SB 7.6.3). The sense gratification, the standard of sense gratification, is deha-yogena dehinām , according to the body. The pig is eating very nicely stool because he has got a body like that. A human being will not take that. But the pleasure of eating, either stool or rasagullā , the same. Rūpānuga: You gave the example of a gold pot and an iron pot and a diamond pot. A diamond pot was a demigod, and the gold pot was a human being, and the iron pot the animal. But they are thinking that the food is more palatable in a different pot. But it is still the same food. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: But they are simply interested with the pots. External. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye . . . (SB 7.5.31). They are thinking by changing the pot the advancement of civilization will increase. And that is going on. Just like the America. You have got very big, big roads, nice cars, everything. You are changing the pot, but the eatable is the same. Vipina: I heard a nice example given the other day about how the living entities are suffering. A black widow, male and female black widow spiders, have sex life. After the sex life the female spider consumes the male spider, eats him alive. Prabhupāda: What's that? Spider. Vipina: Black widow. She will eat him after sex, kill him. Prabhupāda: (laughs) So we are also killing by and by, and she kills immediately. That is the difference. Vipina: Yes, little by little. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Tulasī dāsa has said that. Din kā dakinī rāt kā bāghinī pālak pālak rahu cuṣe, duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhagilipu sei , that there is an animal who is at daytime a witch and at nighttime she's tigress. So her only business is to suck the blood. But people are so mad that everyone keeping that tigress. Duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhagini . Every home, there is a tigress like that. Hari-śauri: That's their wife. Rūpānuga: Their best friend. Prabhupāda: (laughs) At daytime, witch, and nighttime, tigress. This is her picture. But people know it, and still, they keep one tigress at home. Duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhag . . . so that lady spider and lord spider, that is everywhere. But here gradually, and they are immediately. That is the difference. The process is the same. People want to enjoy by sex, by seminal discharge, but what is this? His blood. By fifteen drops of blood, or something like that, one drop of semina is created. Rūpānuga: Forty drops of blood, one drop of semina. *Prabhupāda: Forty drops. Yes. So one ounce of semina discharge means forty ounce of blood sucked. This is a fact. So he is enjoying his own blood, and he's thinking, "I am enjoying." Therefore he's compared with the camel. Śva*-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Camel eats the thorny twigs, and the thorns pricks the tongue and blood comes out. So after twig is mixed with blood, it becomes tasteful, and he thinks thorn is very nice. (laughs) So thorn is not nice; nice is his blood, own blood. But he, because he's animal, he's thinking it is very nice. Vipina: So many people that run their life that way, they realize that, "This woman is not making me happy. She's making me work, and I'm miserable, and I don't like it," but they keep on. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore he's described as mad, bhora. Bhora means mad. Duniya sab bhorakhobe gare gare bhagini . Vipina: We're almost there, Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: In the heavenly planets the woman is described that during summer they are very warm, the body is very warm, and during winter . . . er . . . summer the body is very cool of the woman, and during summer the body is cool and during winter the body is very warm. That is the nature of the woman in heavenly planets. And their breast is very, very tight and strongly built. And their youthfulness never diminishes. These are the description of the heavenly woman. Bhāgavata , everything is there. Mohinī*-mūrti began to play on the balls, and the description of the breast is there and . . . what is called this portion? Hari-śauri: Armpit. Prabhupāda: Armpit. Yes. So she was playing ball one hand, and one hand a bunch of hair would become, immediately she was taking care. So with this beauty Lord Śiva become mad. As soon as one man sees the breast and this armpit of young woman, then he is finished. (laughs) Vipina: So what happens to us? Prabhupāda: It is every man that this is the position. This is the position. And so long we will be charmed with these things, he has to take birth again and again. Viṣayināṁ saṁdarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca. Vipina: This is the property, Prabhupāda. Excuse me. This is your home, and the devotees are here for you. Hari-śauri: I can lock it now if you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Bṛṣākapi: Would you like some warm milk, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. Rūpānuga: This is for your servants. Push the button, they hear in the back. Vipina: Cold water for you, here, Prabhupāda. Cold water here if you want some. Prabhupāda: Cold water. Hari-śauri: They are bringing some hot milk, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Vipina: Also something interesting about this water, Prabhupāda. It's all natural spring water, it's not city water. Underground water, fresh water. Rūpānuga: It's quiet here. Prabhupāda: It is nice. Bṛṣākapi: There's a swimming pool here, Prabhupāda. You have a garden by the pool, you can take your massage there. Prabhupāda: This is your own house? What you have paid for it? *Rūpānuga: Well, now we are leasing with option to buy. We have ten*-year lease. We can purchase anytime before ten years. Prabhupāda: Price is fixed? Rūpānuga: Six hundred fifty thousand. But all money paid for rent goes toward purchase. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Rūpānuga: How much a month? *Vipina: Right around now, it's about twenty*-five hundred, and it will average that for ten years. At the end of ten years, it will drop to like twenty-two, twenty-one, which is . . . it will be worth much more in ten years. It's very good. And he also is responsible . . . the owner is responsible for any major malfunctions in any equipment on the property. We just had your water pump replaced for six hundred dollars, and he had to pay because of our contract. Rūpānuga: It is an exceptional arrangement. Bṛṣākapi: No interest. Prabhupāda: How many rooms? Bṛṣākapi: Several buildings, Prabhupāda. We have one big temple building down there, very gorgeous, with big kitchen. Prabhupāda: I may see now? Rūpānuga: If you like. Prabhupāda: Or it is closed. Rūpānuga: Deities are resting. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Rūpānuga: In the morning I think it would be better to see things. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bṛṣākapi: We can walk on the property. Prabhupāda: Morning walk. Rūpānuga: Jaya . Vipina: The kitchen is governmentally approved, so that if we decide to have a big festival, we can cook and distribute publicly without any problems. Prabhupāda: These furnitures were there? Rūpānuga: No, this is all we have purchased. Bṛṣākapi: For you, Prabhupāda. Rūpānuga: The doors also, lights—everything we have purchased. Prabhupāda: Oh. You had to utilize so much money. Rūpānuga: But this is Washington, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Everything . . . this neighborhood is one of the most wealthy neighborhoods in the country. It is very big. We did not think we would be able to get in so easy. But now the people are appreciating how we have fixed up the property, so they have accepted us into the community. But it is very wealthy. You will see some of the new houses being built. Prabhupāda: They have seen our books? Rūpānuga: I don't know. Have you made some . . .? Well, basically we've been just getting them used to us. We have not approached them so much, because we've only been here a short time. How long have we been here altogether? Bṛṣākapi: Four months. Three to four months. Rūpānuga: In four months, they have transformed this. Prabhupāda: That's good. This wooden wall was there? Vipina: Yes. We refinished them. Bṛṣākapi: It was all dirty. Prabhupāda: It was not used. Rūpānuga: It was simply for office, like that. And the temple building was a gymnasium. It used to be a gymnasium, and we have converted the whole thing. Vipina: That was one reason that we were very much attracted to the property. The property itself was not very beautiful when we came, but the gym was built, and we saw it as an immediate temple where we could hold kīrtana and preach. So we then made a contract, and the fish bit. Prabhupāda: Nobody was taking it. Vipina: No one was taking it. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Our Detroit property is like that. Rūpānuga: White elephant. Prabhupāda: Nobody was taking, but it was quite suitable for us. And that is the finest property. You have seen it? Rūpānuga: I have not been there. I have seen photographs. Bṛṣākapi: I have seen it. Prabhupāda: Is it not? Bṛṣākapi: It is the finest, the finest. Prabhupāda: And we have got very cheap. One room will cost three hundred thousand, it is so costly. They said they spent about two millions dollars fifty years ago. Vipina: Fifty years ago. That's ten, twenty million now. Prabhupāda: But nobody was taking. Vipina: Haribol Narottama. Narottama: Hot milk. And there is fruit, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There is fruit also. (devotee enters; offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: Come on. Jaya . (pause) Prabhupāda: You take. That's all. What is this? Devotee: Kiwi from New Zealand. (Prabhupāda is eating during the conversation) Vipina: Those are Narottama's rasagullās over there, Prabhupāda. Narottama's rasagullā . Hari-śauri: He's learned how to make Indian sweets very expertly. He was making them in Detroit. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Bṛṣākapi: Jaya , Prabhupāda. That's wonderful, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where he is going now? Hari-śauri: Ready to arrange the luggage. Vipina: This is real prasādam distribution. Prabhupāda: Very nice. (Prabhupāda continues to eat) Vipina: Those are melons, Prabhupāda. Watermelons, sweet melons. They are the best. Prabhupāda: I take America as my fatherland. India is motherland, and here is fatherland. (laughs) So many fathers. My father was very affectionate to me. He would do everything for me. I lost one father, I have got so many fathers. Vipina: Jaya . We'd like to keep it that way, Prabhupāda. If you'd let us, we'd like to keep it that way. Bṛṣākapi: We want to take care of you forever, Prabhupāda. Vipina: What do you say, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That . . . everyone appreciated that in India, that the American fathers keeping him. Just like keeping him in cotton. (laughs) They admit that. Where is salt? There are many flies here? Vipina: Not many, and we have screens also in the windows, so there shouldn't be too much disturbance from them. Prabhupāda: Fruits are so nice. Kṛṣṇa has given fruit. They are locally grown? Bṛṣākapi: No, Prabhupāda. Not too many. They all come from other parts of the country. Prabhupāda: Your country? Bṛṣākapi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not outside. Not like England, they have to import from . . . this is a very good example. Just like salt, we require. A little salt will increase the taste. But because it is absolutely necessary for eating, salt—everyone eats salt; *nobody can avoid salt—it does not mean I shall eat too much. If I take this whole salt pot and put into . . . because "It is very good," that is foolishness. Similarly, sense gratification, so long we have got this material body, we require little. But because it is tasty, "Let us take it, whole pot," that is mistake. This is going on. This foolishness is going on. Sex life is good, simply take sex life, go on, and spoil your whole life. That is going on. If everything is accepted in regulative principle—little salt, that's all—that's very nice. But as soon as you think "It is very nice. Let me take simply this," then it is spoiled. That is wanted. We don't reject anything, but accept in a regular way. Flesh eaters? All right, you want flesh? "No, I want flesh, but I want this big cow." Why not less important animal? There are so many other animals. The goats are there, the lambs are there, the hogs are there. Take them. Why Kṛṣṇa says go*-rakṣya ? It is a very important animal. It will give you brain substance, this rasagullā . Therefore Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . But this rascal has no knowledge. The cows gives us milk, very nutritious. "No, eat the whole cow. Then all nutrition will come." This is their intelligence. Rubbish civilization. Why Kṛṣṇa has recommended go-rakṣya ? He never said that other animal. If you are fond of eating flesh, you take other animals, not the cow. Give protection, take milk from it, and prepare nice preparation, that will be good for brain, for your mind. Apart from . . . there is no question of religious sentiment. From practical. Rūpānuga: Just the medical point of view, it is right. Prabhupāda: You see. But they are so fools, rascals, they'll not accept it. And they'll give example, "Christ ate fish" somewhere. "Therefore we have to maintain the slaughterhouse." Because Christ ate fish, therefore we have to maintain slaughterhouse. Give the dog a bad name and hang it. Huh? This is going on. So we have to make vigorous propaganda for all this foolishness. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. So we are giving the best civilization, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. With little patience and perseverance you work on it, people will take it. Because there is nothing adulteration; it is pure. Rest assured, if you follow the principles and push on according to the prescription I have given, it will be accepted. May take some time. Rūpānuga: But they will appreciate the purity. Prabhupāda: It is pure. Actually, these fruits and some milk preparation are sufficient. You don't require any flesh. Is the flesh comparable with this nice fruit? (pause) Prabhupāda: Come on. Sit down. (distributing prasādam ) Devotee: Is there one for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, I am not so fool that I shall give everything. (laughter) (end) *Bṛṣākapi: . . . we have ordered. They will be arriving in two months. Also we have Prabhupāda*-Bhaktisiddhānta deities. They will be coming also. We will be the first in America to have Prabhupāda, Bhaktisiddhānta and Sītā-Rāma. Prabhupāda: Here? Bṛṣākapi: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Very good. This rasagullā is nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not as good as Keśī dāsa. Prabhupāda: They make it like Keśī dāsa, in New Vrindavan . . . (indistinct) (long pause) (indistinct background whispering) Prabhupāda: There is water? Bṛṣākapi: (indistinct) . . . here, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . to purchase it? And he has to sell to us. Nobody will purchase. Rūpānuga: No. And we have the option secured with a deposit. Otherwise, we would not spend so much money. Prabhupāda: Now, as soon as possible, you purchase it. Six hundred thousand? *Rūpānuga: Six*-fifty. Bṛṣākapi: We have purchased. In effect, we have already purchased, Prabhupāda. It is ours. Rūpānuga: It is just that we have ten years to get more money. Bṛṣākapi: It's cheaper to make the payments than to try and buy. Prabhupāda: But Rāmeśvara has not agreed to pay? Rūpānuga: No, we do not have to get money from BBT this way. This way we do not have to take loan. It is good, because BBT does not have that much money. Prabhupāda: No, we need supply money to India. Depend on Kṛṣṇa; Kṛṣṇa will supply. Vipina: Jaya . That happened just about less than a month ago. Some gentleman who was a Seventh Day Adventist, he became interested and started to call and come by, and listened to the philosophy, and even listened to your tapes. And then shortly after that he gave a donation of five thousand dollars. We bought with it some chandeliers for Kṛṣṇa's temple for you to see tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Five thousand dollars? Vipina: Yes. Prabhupāda: Don't misspend. Vipina: Not all on chandeliers. Just part of it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You have a bell system? Rūpānuga: Yes, it rings, but you can't hear it in here. It rings in the back quarters. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I'll just go in there. Prabhupāda: The doors you have purchased? Rūpānuga: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is costly? Vipina: Yes. Rūpānuga: The other doors were not . . . they could not even be locked nicely. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Vipina: We got matching doors all the way through your quarters. Bṛṣākapi: We are hoping if you like it, you will stay here, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I want to stay, but . . . Rūpānuga: . . . cannot. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Where's the bell? I want to test the buzzer. Rūpānuga: On the other side, underneath, it works. This Washington temple actually is one of your oldest centers, but this is the first time you have been able to come when facilities were proper. So we have . . . Prabhupāda: Indians are coming? Rūpānuga: Yes. Prabhupāda: They come on the Love Feast? Rūpānuga: They come to the Sunday feast. Vipina: They are starting to come more now. With the changes we made in the temple, and they are being very much impressed that we are doing nicely, and they want to become a part. Prabhupāda: I heard that Ambassador, you have made some engagement? Vipina: Prabhupāda, he . . . I got a call from his secretary, and I've been working on it, and I've been to his house once. He has a very nice, stately house. He had requested that maybe you could come there to his home, and your servant and Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa were thinking it might be hard for you to travel there. So we're trying to convince him to come here. Prabhupāda: Ah. There is no question of insisting. They cannot help us in any way. Vipina: No, not at all. Prabhupāda: I have tried all these. They are useless. Bṛṣākapi: We have written all the Parliament, and we have asked them to come, but they are too busy. Prabhupāda: So you go and take rest. Devotees: Jaya. Haribol . Prabhupāda: There is much time difference from . . .? Vipina: From . . .? *Bṛṣākapi: Ten*-thirty. It's ten-thirty now. Prabhupāda: No, New Vrindavan and . . .? Devotees: Same time, New Vrindavan. Rūpānuga: Should I close this, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I'm going to the bedroom. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like a fan that doesn't make so much noise, perhaps? A fan in here? Prabhupāda: May be required. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. (end) *Bṛṣākapi: . . . we have ordered. They will be arriving in two months. Also we have Prabhupāda*-Bhaktisiddhānta deities. They will be coming also. We will be the first in America to have Prabhupāda, Bhaktisiddhānta and Sītā-Rāma. Prabhupāda: Here? Bṛṣākapi: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Very good. This rasagullā is nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not as good as Keśī dāsa. Prabhupāda: They make it like Keśī dāsa, in New Vrindavan . . . (indistinct) (long pause) (indistinct background whispering) Prabhupāda: There is water? Bṛṣākapi: (indistinct) . . . here, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . to purchase it? And he has to sell to us. Nobody will purchase. Rūpānuga: No. And we have the option secured with a deposit. Otherwise, we would not spend so much money. Prabhupāda: Now, as soon as possible, you purchase it. Six hundred thousand? *Rūpānuga: Six*-fifty. Bṛṣākapi: We have purchased. In effect, we have already purchased, Prabhupāda. It is ours. Rūpānuga: It is just that we have ten years to get more money. Bṛṣākapi: It's cheaper to make the payments than to try and buy. Prabhupāda: But Rāmeśvara has not agreed to pay? Rūpānuga: No, we do not have to get money from BBT this way. This way we do not have to take loan. It is good, because BBT does not have that much money. Prabhupāda: No, we need supply money to India. Depend on Kṛṣṇa; Kṛṣṇa will supply. Vipina: Jaya . That happened just about less than a month ago. Some gentleman who was a Seventh Day Adventist, he became interested and started to call and come by, and listened to the philosophy, and even listened to your tapes. And then shortly after that he gave a donation of five thousand dollars. We bought with it some chandeliers for Kṛṣṇa's temple for you to see tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Five thousand dollars? Vipina: Yes. Prabhupāda: Don't misspend. Vipina: Not all on chandeliers. Just part of it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You have a bell system? Rūpānuga: Yes, it rings, but you can't hear it in here. It rings in the back quarters. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I'll just go in there. Prabhupāda: The doors you have purchased? Rūpānuga: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is costly? Vipina: Yes. Rūpānuga: The other doors were not . . . they could not even be locked nicely. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Vipina: We got matching doors all the way through your quarters. Bṛṣākapi: We are hoping if you like it, you will stay here, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I want to stay, but . . . Rūpānuga: . . . cannot. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Where's the bell? I want to test the buzzer. Rūpānuga: On the other side, underneath, it works. This Washington temple actually is one of your oldest centers, but this is the first time you have been able to come when facilities were proper. So we have . . . Prabhupāda: Indians are coming? Rūpānuga: Yes. Prabhupāda: They come on the Love Feast? Rūpānuga: They come to the Sunday feast. Vipina: They are starting to come more now. With the changes we made in the temple, and they are being very much impressed that we are doing nicely, and they want to become a part. Prabhupāda: I heard that Ambassador, you have made some engagement? Vipina: Prabhupāda, he . . . I got a call from his secretary, and I've been working on it, and I've been to his house once. He has a very nice, stately house. He had requested that maybe you could come there to his home, and your servant and Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa were thinking it might be hard for you to travel there. So we're trying to convince him to come here. Prabhupāda: Ah. There is no question of insisting. They cannot help us in any way. Vipina: No, not at all. Prabhupāda: I have tried all these. They are useless. Bṛṣākapi: We have written all the Parliament, and we have asked them to come, but they are too busy. Prabhupāda: So you go and take rest. Devotees: Jaya. Haribol . Prabhupāda: There is much time difference from . . .? Vipina: From . . .? *Bṛṣākapi: Ten*-thirty. It's ten-thirty now. Prabhupāda: No, New Vrindavan and . . .? Devotees: Same time, New Vrindavan. Rūpānuga: Should I close this, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I'm going to the bedroom. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like a fan that doesn't make so much noise, perhaps? A fan in here? Prabhupāda: May be required. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . punaḥ punaś carvita carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30), again spend millions of dollars. And our rascal Indian leaders, they are also. What is that here, she has remarked, "Hare Kṛṣṇa cult." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah, that Indian cultural organization. Rūpānuga: Who said that? Prabhupāda: One . . . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have one cultural organization, they want to export yogīs and teachers who they approve of, the Indian government approves of as being bona fide. Because the American government, so many people are complaining about misrepresentation by these Indian svāmīs and so*-called yogīs that are coming over. So they put Guru . . . the Divine Light Society . . . Hari-śauri: They said that once this is established there will be no room for the Divine Lighters, the Hare Kṛṣṇa cultists, like this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: T.M., like that. Hari-śauri: Transcendental Meditation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Label, put us all together. Rūpānuga: Really. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Foolish woman. Prabhupāda: And they're spending . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A hundred and sixty nine lakhs or something. Prabhupāda: A hundred and sixty nine lakhs per year, inviting foreign cultures to lecture. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And only a handful came. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only a handful they had; something like sixty people. They spent two . . . Prabhupāda: And what culture they'll speak? . . . (indistinct Hindi) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Culural exchange. Prabhupāda: They can speak, "Milk is dangerous and meat is very nutritious. Kill all the cows." Oh, yes, it's very scientific. This is the cult. "Milk is dangerous." Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they're saying that, the doctors nowadays. Rūpānuga: It's true. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember one day you retorted that. You said that, "Milk is nothing but the blood of the cow transformed. And the milk is bad but the blood is good?" Rūpānuga: They scare people by saying that milk helps to create heart disease and artery disease, like that. They frighten people with that propaganda, the doctors. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Meat creates cancer of the intestines. Rūpānuga: Actually, there have been some articles in papers lately about meat and cancer, linking meat and cancer. Prominent, prominently displayed articles. Prabhupāda: Then why do you give milk to the children? Give him blood. Rūpānuga: They say past a certain age . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, this propaganda—milk is bad—so why from the very beginning you give milk to the children? Rūpānuga: Actually, in America they do not feed the children by the breast. They use cow's milk practically from birth. Prabhupāda: Therefore I say. Rūpānuga: It's true. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There was an article in the newspaper about that today. It said in the newspaper that if women stop breast feeding their children they will have to increase the population of dairy cows tremendously. A very small percentage do now. Prabhupāda: They have to increase? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: More and more cows to produce enough milk to feed children. Prabhupāda: And therefore we are killing children. There is no problem, we shall kill our . . . why do you call? We shall kill, wholesale. And go to ball dance. Hari-śauri: The whole civilization is completely crazy. Prabhupāda: Kārtikeya told me. After many years he went to see his mother, and mother was going to ball dance. And mother said: "Wait, I am coming back." And he was surprised. He told me. Son has come at home after many years, and she could not talk with him. She was going to ball dance. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's actually that way. It actually goes on that way. Prabhupāda: This is the mother. Hari-śauri: Completely callous. Rūpānuga: Not even mother love anymore. Prabhupāda: Mother killing. He was about to be killed. He admits. His grandmother advised the mother. Yes. Kṛṣṇa saved him. Because he is devotee, some way or other, he was saved. Your grandmother still living? Hari-śauri: Just. Prabhupāda: Why don't you say, (laughs) "You wanted to kill me, just see, I'm chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." Hari-śauri: I don't think it would go down very well if I mentioned it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: I don't think it would be received very well. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: She might say: "See, I was right." Prabhupāda: Mother advising young daughter to kill her child. Rūpānuga: Actually there was a statement in the national magazine, the President's wife was advising her own daughter to the reporters that she should have illicit sex. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, this President's wife, this present First Lady, is very abominable. She actually came out and said: "If I were young I would also experiment with drugs." So many things. Prabhupāda: No, why here? In India, in India, in a office, I was going there for my Back to Godhead , so the clerk had one girl, they were intimately related, and the girl's father, mother allowed. The boy was coming. And when the girl wanted to marry him, the father refused: "No, no, you cannot marry. Let him come as friend, but there is no question of marriage." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What was their purpose? Prabhupāda: Purpose is that, "You are young girl, you can have a young boy as friend and have your sex, but don't talk of marriage." This is the plain fact. "You need sex? All right, keep him as friend. Marriage, that I will select, or a better boy. When we find, then there is question of marriage. He's a clerk, how you can be married with him? He's coming as friend. You enjoy sex, that's all." This is the . . . first of all, he was ordered not to come. Then the girl began to cry. Then he allowed, "All right let him come, but there is no question of marriage." Why he? Our, that (name withheld). You know? He was Ambassador in Germany. His daughter is a devotee. That boy who was selling books? (name withheld). Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (name withheld) is the girl's name. Prabhupāda: Ah. Her father said: "Yes, you keep as friend, don't marry." The (name withheld), Mr . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said that concerning (name withheld) and her? Prabhupāda: Yes. (name withheld) is living with her at her father's house. So he did not object but he objected marriage. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I heard that she became like a witch. (name withheld) left her. He couldn't bear associating with her. Now he's brahmacārī again. (laughter) That was one of Bhagavān's marriages that didn't work out. Rūpānuga: We were thinking that just like when you were in Moscow, a picture was taken . . . some pictures were taken that were used for Back to Godhead , very good propaganda. We were thinking maybe when we go on this tour that in front of the White House maybe we could take a picture and use it in Back to Godhead in an article like that. That might be good propaganda. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do. Rūpānuga: So we were thinking we would go there to the White House on the first part, then to Capitol, second part, then around to Lincoln Memorial, then Monument for fireworks ceremony. Prabhupāda: I will go to the fireworks. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . punaḥ punaś carvita carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30), again spend millions of dollars. And our rascal Indian leaders, they are also. What is that here, she has remarked, "Hare Kṛṣṇa cult." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah, that Indian cultural organization. Rūpānuga: Who said that? Prabhupāda: One . . . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have one cultural organization, they want to export yogīs and teachers who they approve of, the Indian government approves of as being bona fide. Because the American government, so many people are complaining about misrepresentation by these Indian svāmīs and so*-called yogīs that are coming over. So they put Guru . . . the Divine Light Society . . . Hari-śauri: They said that once this is established there will be no room for the Divine Lighters, the Hare Kṛṣṇa cultists, like this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: T.M., like that. Hari-śauri: Transcendental Meditation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Label, put us all together. Rūpānuga: Really. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Foolish woman. Prabhupāda: And they're spending . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A hundred and sixty nine lakhs or something. Prabhupāda: A hundred and sixty nine lakhs per year, inviting foreign cultures to lecture. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And only a handful came. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only a handful they had; something like sixty people. They spent two . . . Prabhupāda: And what culture they'll speak? . . . (indistinct Hindi) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Culural exchange. Prabhupāda: They can speak, "Milk is dangerous and meat is very nutritious. Kill all the cows." Oh, yes, it's very scientific. This is the cult. "Milk is dangerous." Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they're saying that, the doctors nowadays. Rūpānuga: It's true. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember one day you retorted that. You said that, "Milk is nothing but the blood of the cow transformed. And the milk is bad but the blood is good?" Rūpānuga: They scare people by saying that milk helps to create heart disease and artery disease, like that. They frighten people with that propaganda, the doctors. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Meat creates cancer of the intestines. Rūpānuga: Actually, there have been some articles in papers lately about meat and cancer, linking meat and cancer. Prominent, prominently displayed articles. Prabhupāda: Then why do you give milk to the children? Give him blood. Rūpānuga: They say past a certain age . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, this propaganda—milk is bad—so why from the very beginning you give milk to the children? Rūpānuga: Actually, in America they do not feed the children by the breast. They use cow's milk practically from birth. Prabhupāda: Therefore I say. Rūpānuga: It's true. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There was an article in the newspaper about that today. It said in the newspaper that if women stop breast feeding their children they will have to increase the population of dairy cows tremendously. A very small percentage do now. Prabhupāda: They have to increase? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: More and more cows to produce enough milk to feed children. Prabhupāda: And therefore we are killing children. There is no problem, we shall kill our . . . why do you call? We shall kill, wholesale. And go to ball dance. Hari-śauri: The whole civilization is completely crazy. Prabhupāda: Kārtikeya told me. After many years he went to see his mother, and mother was going to ball dance. And mother said: "Wait, I am coming back." And he was surprised. He told me. Son has come at home after many years, and she could not talk with him. She was going to ball dance. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's actually that way. It actually goes on that way. Prabhupāda: This is the mother. Hari-śauri: Completely callous. Rūpānuga: Not even mother love anymore. Prabhupāda: Mother killing. He was about to be killed. He admits. His grandmother advised the mother. Yes. Kṛṣṇa saved him. Because he is devotee, some way or other, he was saved. Your grandmother still living? Hari-śauri: Just. Prabhupāda: Why don't you say, (laughs) "You wanted to kill me, just see, I'm chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." Hari-śauri: I don't think it would go down very well if I mentioned it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: I don't think it would be received very well. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: She might say: "See, I was right." Prabhupāda: Mother advising young daughter to kill her child. Rūpānuga: Actually there was a statement in the national magazine, the President's wife was advising her own daughter to the reporters that she should have illicit sex. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, this President's wife, this present First Lady, is very abominable. She actually came out and said: "If I were young I would also experiment with drugs." So many things. Prabhupāda: No, why here? In India, in India, in a office, I was going there for my Back to Godhead , so the clerk had one girl, they were intimately related, and the girl's father, mother allowed. The boy was coming. And when the girl wanted to marry him, the father refused: "No, no, you cannot marry. Let him come as friend, but there is no question of marriage." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What was their purpose? Prabhupāda: Purpose is that, "You are young girl, you can have a young boy as friend and have your sex, but don't talk of marriage." This is the plain fact. "You need sex? All right, keep him as friend. Marriage, that I will select, or a better boy. When we find, then there is question of marriage. He's a clerk, how you can be married with him? He's coming as friend. You enjoy sex, that's all." This is the . . . first of all, he was ordered not to come. Then the girl began to cry. Then he allowed, "All right let him come, but there is no question of marriage." Why he? Our, that (name withheld). You know? He was Ambassador in Germany. His daughter is a devotee. That boy who was selling books? (name withheld). Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (name withheld) is the girl's name. Prabhupāda: Ah. Her father said: "Yes, you keep as friend, don't marry." The (name withheld), Mr . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said that concerning (name withheld) and her? Prabhupāda: Yes. (name withheld) is living with her at her father's house. So he did not object but he objected marriage. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I heard that she became like a witch. (name withheld) left her. He couldn't bear associating with her. Now he's brahmacārī again. (laughter) That was one of Bhagavān's marriages that didn't work out. Rūpānuga: We were thinking that just like when you were in Moscow, a picture was taken . . . some pictures were taken that were used for Back to Godhead , very good propaganda. We were thinking maybe when we go on this tour that in front of the White House maybe we could take a picture and use it in Back to Godhead in an article like that. That might be good propaganda. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do. Rūpānuga: So we were thinking we would go there to the White House on the first part, then to Capitol, second part, then around to Lincoln Memorial, then Monument for fireworks ceremony. Prabhupāda: I will go to the fireworks. (end) (Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla) Prabhupāda: Everyone is engaged in the business of sense gratification. Just like last night millions of men went to see the firework. So the firework, as well as the people went to see there, the expenditure was very heavy, I think, total? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned that with all of the cars going and what not, it probably amounted to about ten million dollars. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that petrol. But what was the purpose? The purpose was little sense gratification, "I shall see something illuminating." What was other purpose? No purpose. Simply to satisfy the eyes, to see something illuminating. That is one sense, eyes. Then there are other senses. They also want satisfaction. There are hands, there are legs, there are tongue, eyes, ears, nose. So every one, every one of these senses, they are engaged for sense satisfaction. So this is the life. But that sense satisfaction is differently exhibited for different bodies. Just like this firework, it was interesting to the human being. Human being has got a particular type of body, so it is interested to see the firework. But the cats and dogs, they are not interested. They do not know what is fireworks. They, while we are interested to see the firework, a hog may be interested to eat stool. If he gets some stool somewhere, he'll be interested than to see the firework. So because he has got a different body, he's interested differently. We are human beings, we are interested differently. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja rightly said, deha*-yogena dehinām ( SB 7.6.3). This sense gratification, varieties, according to the varieties of the body. Deha-yogena dehinām. *But this is arranged, this different process of sense gratification is arranged daivāt , by the superior arrangement. Daivāt. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām, sarvatra labhyate daivāt (SB 7.6.3). By the superior arrangement everywhere it is available. Either you become Lord Brahmā or you become a small ant, the process of sense gratification, arrangement is there. (aside) You can come in front. Rūpānuga: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Professor Dr. Sukla. He has written a very favorable review on your books. *Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (laughs) Yes, I've seen you. Thank you very much. I'm just explaining that sense gratification, different types of bodies differently . . . so that is arranged by the superior arrangement. Sarvatra labhyate daivāt . So it is available everywhere according to the body arrangement. Prahlāda Mahārāja says . . . where is that book, Prahlāda Mahārāja, Seventh Canto? Tat*-prayāso na kartavyo , don't waste your time for that purpose. Tat-prayāso na kartavyo. Why not? Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param . Simply wasting the valuable duration of life. Yata āyur-vyayaḥ. But practically we see that the whole world is spoiling the life simply for sense gratification, especially at the present moment. Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param. You can read. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Translation: "Endeavors merely for sense gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual profit. If one's endeavors are directed towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can surely attain the spiritual platform of self*-realization. There is no such benefit from engaging oneself in economic development." *Prabhupāda: This is our philosophy, and the whole world is engaged in economic development. So which is better? (laughs) Here it is said tat*-prayāso na kartavyo . We see, especially in the Western country, they are very busy for economic development, and unless one is engaged . . . I think that Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they questioned that in India, people being fatalist . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They questioned, many people think this is a hindrance to progress. *Prabhupāda: So what is progress? In India still, in so fallen condition, we have got practical experience. If there is some arrangement . . . sometimes we arrange Hare Kṛṣṇa festival. Each day not less than twenty thousand, thirty thousand, forty thousand people come. Although these, mostly these foreigners, they are chanting, and we are speaking in English, still, to hear the kīrtana , they come from remote villages. In Calcutta I have seen. That is natural tendency of Indians. Bhārata*-bhūmi , anyone who has taken birth in India, naturally Kṛṣṇa conscious. By artificial means, they are being suppressed. Just like this Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have questioned that . . . what they have said? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They said that there are many thinkers in India who consider that the Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore it doesn't encourage people to make material progress. *Prabhupāda: That economic development. Our ācāryas , practically in Indian civilization, there are so many books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big factories for economic development. You'll find Vyāsadeva has written so many books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned. Dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41,CC Adi 1.90), he dealt with these four subject matter, but not bhakti . Therefore Nārada Muni chastised him that, "You have wasted your time, simply writing on the subject matter of dharma , artha, kāma, mokṣa, catur varga ." Then, under his instruction, he wrote Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam simply on the glories of the Supreme Lord, without any attempt to write anything about dharma artha kāma mokṣa . In the beginning he introduces, gives introduction to his book, dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavo 'tra śrīmad-bhāgavate (SB 1.1.2), in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , dharma , artha , kāma , mokṣa , they are all kaitavas , cheating. These things are thrown away. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). So this kaitava , Śrīdhara Swami gives his commentary, atra mokṣa-vāñchan paryantaṁ nirastam . The desire for liberation is also rejected. Simply devotional service to the Lord. That is only business. So our, this propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is on the basis . . . it is called bhāgavata-dharma . Prahlāda Mahārāja begins his teaching that this bhāgavata-dharma should be imparted from the very beginning of life. And people are missing this opportunity. They are being allured by other business. The main business they are forgetting, neglecting, and they are being drawn, their attention is drawn, so many sporting, so many economic development, then other anarthas , drinking, gambling, slaughterhouse, so on, so on. So this is against human civilization. Therefore if you will give us some chance . . . just like you have given. What is that? Mr. Loomis: Could I ask a question? I look at this room and my senses are gratified by this room, by that painting, by beautiful flowers, by the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is pleasing to my ear, and I have to feel that my senses are able to help my spirit, or else there will not be this beauty in this room. But I don't understand very well when sense gratification is helpful and when it is not. *Prabhupāda: Sense gratification is never helpful. That is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that kāmasya nendriya-prītir (SB 1.2.10). Sense gratification is required as far as . . . as little as possible. Otherwise, not for sense gratification. Just like sleeping. Sleeping is required because this material body requires some rest. But not that we shall sleep twenty-four hours or twenty hours and enjoy, as in this country sometimes they enjoy sleeping. But sleeping is wasting time. So long we shall sleep we cannot do anything good work. Therefore it should be minimized. You cannot avoid sleeping altogether. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is called tapasya , or advancement of spiritual life. Eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna . They're required. So long we have got this body, we require to eat something, we require to sleep sometimes, we require a little sense gratification, and we require defense. But it should be minimized, not increased. That is tapasya . In the human life this is possible, this is possible. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. One can conquer over these things, by practice. The more we minimize this āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna , this means we are advanced in spiritual taste. It is practice. My, my personal life, I don't sleep at night. And nowadays, at most, one hour. Yes. But I take rest in the daytime, at least two to three hours. So it is not that I am sleeping one hour. I sleep three to four hours total. But if practiced, it can be reduced, practiced. We see in the life of Gosvāmīs. About them, it is said: nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. They conquered over sleeping, eating. If we conquer over eating, then we can conquer over sleeping and other things also. If we can control over this tongue, then we can control over the other senses very easily. That is a fact. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung, tar madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati, tā 'ke jetā koṭhina saṁsāre. Of all our senses the tongue is very, very prominent. So the first thing in spiritual advancement, the first thing is to control the tongue. In the śāstra also it is said sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). Our present senses are unable to understand sri kṛṣṇa nāmādi , the holy name of the Lord. Ādi , beginning from His name, nāma , then guṇa , qualities, then pastimes, then form. So people cannot understand the form of the Lord because they are not practiced to devotional service. They are more or less impersonalists. They cannot imagine that God has His form like us, because they are not sevonmukha. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi. Not to speak of the form, they cannot understand what is the holy name of the Lord, why they are chanting, what is the benefit. They cannot understand. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). The present senses cannot appreciate. It has to be purified. That purification begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Then God reveals. When we chant the holy name of the Lord, purified, that is bhakti. Bhakti means to become purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Nirmalam means completely cleansed of all dirty things. That is bhakti . Bhakti means to engage the senses, purified senses, in the service of the Lord. At the present moment, in conditioned stage, our senses are not purified. Therefore we are very, very anxious to engage the senses for sense gratification. And when they will be purified, then these senses will be engaged for the service of Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣikeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam. God's another name is Hṛṣīkeśa, master of the senses. Actually, we have got these senses. Suppose this hand is also one of the senses, to touch. We are claiming it is my hand, but it is not my hand. It is Kṛṣṇa's hand. Kṛṣṇa has given us to use it. Just like this room is not my room. They have given me for my use. Similarly, this body, actually, it is made by Kṛṣṇa. It is a machine manufactured by the material nature under the order of Kṛṣṇa. So actually it is not my body, it is Kṛṣṇa's body. Kṛṣṇa has given us. He has given you a particular type of body, He has given me a particular type of body, so many. Yantra , machine. Just like on a machine, motorcar, we sit down and travel here and there. So we wanted to travel in a certain way so we require some machine, and Kṛṣṇa has given us this machine manufactured by material nature. *Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). So Kṛṣṇa is within the core of heart of everyone. He knows what I want. He's giving us facilities. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and He's still giving direction, "All right, you want to get this facility, sit down on it and travel as you like." So we are getting different machines. Sometimes the human body machine, sometimes dog machine, sometimes cat machine, sometimes demigod machine. We are desiring all these things. American machine, Indian machine. When you are in Indian machine you are thinking, "I am Indian. My business is to satisfy Indian interests." You Americans are thinking, "This is American machine, it should be used for America's benefit." These are upādhi. Upādhi means designation. Neither I am Indian nor American nor cat nor dog. But as soon as I get a particular type of body, I think that I am cat, I am dog, I am Indian, I am America, I am black, I am white, this. This is our position. And people are struggling on this understanding, "I am this body." So long we think like that, "I am this body," we are no better than cats and dogs. He is also thinking "I am this body." Is it not? What do you think, Mr. Sukla? If I think I am this body, the dog is also thinking "I am this body," then where is the difference between the dog and me? What do you think, Mr . . . how shall I address you? Devotees: Loomis. Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Devotees: L*-o-o-m . . . Prabhupāda: So, what is the difference if a dog is thinking that, "I am dog," on account of his body, and if I am thinking I'm an Indian on account of this body. Then where is the difference between this dog and me? He is working under the impression that he's dog, and I am working under the impression I am Indian or American. Then where is difference? Yesterday you observed this great festival under this impression that, "I am American. I must observe this independence." Is it not? What was the meaning of this festival? It was interesting to the Americans. Other nations, they are not interested. They are not observing this independence festival. But the Americans are observing. Why? Under this impression that, "I am American." This yesterday . . . Mr. Loomis: Under the impression that what? Prabhupāda: Everyone is thinking that, "I am American." So if a human being is thinking "I am American," "Indian," or something like that, and if a dog is thinking "I am dog," then where is the difference between the mentalities? Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Of course, both, perhaps, are victim of some kind of illusion. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is illusion. That we are trying to describe. But this is going on. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," the human being is also thinking that "I am American," "I am Indian," or . . . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Then, perhaps, there is no difference. *Prabhupāda: No difference. That is described in the śāstra. Yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). This body is made of . . . everyone knows what is the composition: the bones, the flesh, the blood, the urine, the stool and so on, so on. The body, what is the composition? This is the composition. So if I identify with these bones, flesh, blood, muscle, veins, and stool, urine, so I am a living entity, I am all these bones and flesh and blood? Mr. Loomis: Is it better to have a human body as a machine to use than a cat's body? *Prabhupāda: Certainly, in the sense that you can utilize for higher purposes. Just like you have got this human form of body. Therefore you are sitting here to hear me. The dog has no such facility. The dog has got the same legs, hands or mouth and tongue, and so on, so on, in a different way. But it has no capacity to hear about spiritual advancement of life. Therefore the human body should be engaged not simply for sense gratification. Kāmasya nendriya*-prītir (SB 1.2.10). Find out this verse. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā . This is the business, tattva-jijñāsā. Tattva-jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is the only business. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kāmasya nendriya*-prītir labho jīveta yāvatā (SB 1.2.10). *Prabhupāda: Labho jīveta yāvatā . You can satisfy senses as far as it is required to live. That's all. Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā . The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . That is the only business. Mr. Loomis: For this machine? *Prabhupāda: All other business subordinate. That is only, because you have got this body, material body, it requires little rest, little sense gratification, little eating, little sleeping. We don't say stop it completely. That is not possible. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya , as far as it is required. As little as possible. That is spiritual advancement. If we make our progressive life engaged in understanding Kṛṣṇa instead of devoting in these unnecessary things, that is real life. That is real human life. The Vedic civilization is that. We find Vyāsadeva writing so exalted books, but life was very simple. People are, now in the modern civilization, people are accustomed only to the comforts of the body. Not for spiritual advance. That is the defect of modern civilization. (break) Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, no matter what material body you have, by material nature given you, one of the most predominating features of material life is pain. I want to address myself to this question, because in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we frequently face this problem. We have the pain of, for example, if you do tapasya , that's a pain to deprive your body of sense gratification. If you don't have sleep, you have to force yourself. If you have sickness, mental disturbances, so many things, then there's the other kind of pain. *Prabhupāda: That is being explained, that we don't want to stop sleeping, but minimize it. That is being already explained. We don't say complete negation. No. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya. Simply sleep as little as possible. Not that to take, just like in the Western countries, they take sleeping as enjoyment. Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They call it beauty rest. In Hawaii we went by a Beautyrest Mattress store. They call it beauty rest. Prabhupāda: Not for beauty rest. (laughter) Devotee (4): There's a kind of pain also, like when your false ego, when somebody tells you to do something or yells at you or gives you instruction. We all have this propensity to try and lord it over. When that's being denied, we feel a sense of pain, we feel like something, you know, be dejected in our service. The tendency is to want to be angry . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to be trained up under proper spiritual master. You cannot work whimsically. Then it will not help. Devotee (4): Should we always endeavor in spite of pain to push ourselves in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *Prabhupāda: There is no pain. It is painful in the beginning, but . . . everything. If you take some medicine, it is bitter, it is painful, but if it helps to cure disease, we must take it. "Because the medicine is bitter, I'll not take it." That is not sense. If you want to be cured from the disease, even the medicine is bitter, you must take. That is tapasya. Tapasya means things we are going to accept may be not very pleasing, but still we have to do it. That is tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We take bitter medicine just to cure our existence. Similarly, at the present moment, our existence is impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old age and disease on account of impure existence. Otherwise, we are spirit soul, we are eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So we are not in eternal existence, we are temporary existence. We have got this body, it will be finished. Then we have to accept another body, tatha dehāntara praptir . Then again you live in that body for some time, and again the body is finished. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). So this is going on. This is impure stage of our existence. So we have to purify it. Therefore to purify it tapasya required. Tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). The tapasya required. That tapasya has to be given lesson, trained up. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). That is brahmacārī system, to understand the value of life. These things are lacking in the present civilization, but it is essential. Without this, there is no meaning of human life. Then it is cats' and dogs' life. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). *So just we are trying to save men from this go*-kharaḥ civilization. Therefore it is not very appealing to the general mass of people. But still we have seen yesterday that as soon as we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone is attracted, everyone. You have seen yesterday? The drunkard, he was also attracted, and the child was attracted, the gray gentleman, he was also attracted, within the park. The child was dancing and the drunkard was dancing. Therefore this is the only means to elevate the modern men to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Have the writings of Vidyāpati come to attention, and if they have . . . Prabhupāda: That is very higher, not for ordinary persons. Vidyāpati's writing is meant for realized souls, not ordinary. Ordinary, they will take as love affairs between girls and boys. Therefore it is not for them. Those who are already advanced, liberated, then these love affairs of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, they will be discussed. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Is there any plan of bringing those things out, publishing them, his poems and translations? Prabhupāda: It is not for ordinary. Cāṇḍīdāsa, Vidyāpati. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to discuss Jayadeva's books, Vidyāpati's books, very confidentially amongst a few devotees. Not publicly. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: So you think they might be misused. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they are being misused. They take Kṛṣṇa as debauch. They do not understand. Therefore the Kṛṣṇa's līlā with the gopīs, they are described in the Tenth Canto. That is also middle of Tenth Canto, and nine cantos required to understand Kṛṣṇa, beginning with janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So that is the Absolute Truth. These things should be discussed in the beginning. Then when one is fully convinced that Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with this material world, as Śaṅkarācārya said, nārāyaṇaḥ para avyaktāt, avyaktāt anna sambhava. This material world is a production . . . (break) It has to be purified. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When it is nirmalam , then it is first-class. The first process is nirmalam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam (SB 7.5.23). This process is first-class. Not all of a sudden jump over. This literature, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . that should be kept in reserve for persons who are already liberated. Otherwise it will be misunderstood. Indian man: Going back to this sense question, where do you think the scheme of art fits into Kṛṣṇa conscious life? Prabhupāda: Art? *Indian man: Yes, like painting, or music, or literature, poetry, like that. Because the problem is that they, if one devotes oneself to these things, they are full*-time things, they take all your energy and time. And so . . . *Prabhupāda: Devotion means to engage your energy and time for Kṛṣṇa. Anyway you do that, that is utilized. Sarvopādhi*-vinir . . . tat-paratvena. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). So if you can serve Kṛṣṇa by your hand, by painting about Kṛṣṇa, that is service. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, if you hear the chanting, that is also service. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu , about Lord Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning. Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of pleasure, ānandamayo 'byāsāt . So these things are producing ānanda . If it is in connection with Kṛṣṇa, then it is service. (aside) So, Pālikā, you can take these fruits, cut into pieces and distribute it. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what if, ah, for instance, I'm too fallen to closely follow the regulative principles and I find myself in that way . . . Prabhupāda: Just explain. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Too fallen to follow the regulative principles is like saying a diseased man is too diseased to take medicine. So it's actually in our own self interest. We have to become enlightened, to understand what our real interest is. Yajña vai viṣṇu . Now we are thinking that our real interest is to gratify the senses. This is perishable. When we come to the understanding of ātmā, ahaṁ brahmāsmi , then we understand that our real self interest is to follow these regulative principles. As Prabhupāda said, in the beginning it may be painful, undoubtedly, because we are, for so many lifetimes addicted to sense gratification, but gradually more and more ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), when the heart becomes cleansed from the dirty misidentification with this gross and subtle material body, gradually more and more it becomes favorable . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa says: "Be happy by this sacrifice." Therefore the sacrifice must be joy-producing, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Simply that because we're presently in diseased condition, it may appear to be displeasing. Prabhupāda gives the example of someone who has jaundice. In the jaundice state, when you take sugar it appears very bitter. The perception is very bitter. But everyone knows that sugar is sweet. So in the same way, the regulative principles are naturally painful for someone who is irregular. For . . . engaged in bodily identification of life. But gradually it becomes more and more pleasing. Prabhupāda: Practical. Devotee: When we have Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (indistinct) . . . struggling for . . . (indistinct) . . . it has to be a struggle. Prabhupāda: What is struggle? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance and take prasādam . (devotee cheers) Prabhupāda: Is that struggle? You don't want to take it. Say that. Where is struggle? To take prasādam , nice prasādam , is struggle? (laughs) Devotee: No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You simply take prasādam , you haven't got to struggle. (laughter) But don't take anything else. Then it will be . . . (indistinct) Devotee: He's not struggling, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: At all. Devotee: He's not struggling taking prasādam . *Prabhupāda: Su*-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam. Rāja-vidyā rāja-guhyaṁ pavitram paramam idam. Su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam . Find out this verse. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the only way back to Godhead is to to attain the causeless mercy of the spiritual master. So . . . Prabhupāda: And he'll sleep. Just as your spiritual master will do for . . . (indistinct) . . . everything . . . (indistinct) . . . it is not magic. Kṛṣṇa, when He advised Arjuna, He never said that, "Arjuna, I'm your friend, God, I shall do everything . . . (indistinct) . . . you don't fight." Did He say? "You have to fight!" That's Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Not that by spiritual master's mercy . . . (indistinct) . . . you have to struggle. You have to follow the rules and regulations. Yes, what does He say? Devotee (3): "This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed." Devotee (3): So by struggling to overcome our senses, we can please you and obtain your mercy? Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) *Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda mentions in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , in the Third Canto, that a yogi is recommended to take foodstuffs, half as much as he desires, one quarter water, one quarter air, one quarter foodstuff. Is that fully recommended for a person in the the Kṛṣṇa consciousness society? If so, how can you be . . . (indistinct) . . .? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The basic principle is that—Prabhupāda mentioned earlier in this afternoon's talk—that if you can control the tongue, especially eating habits, then you'll be able to conquer other things such as sleep. Not only sleep, but also overeating produces other problems like sex desire. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha*-vegaṁ jihvā-vegam udaropastha-vegam . So jihva , the tongue and the belly, udara, upastha , genital, one straight line, like this. So there's a correlation. If one overindulges in eating, then it becomes very difficult also to conquer sex desire, which is the main attraction, or bondage within this material world, not only for the human being but for every living entity. So the principle is that if you don't overeat it will become easier for you to conquer all the senses, as Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, tongue is the most formidable of all the senses. Tāra madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudur . . . always lusting after more and more. Never satisfied. So we have to become sufficiently enlightened to regulate eating habits. This is done by taking prasādam at regular times, and gradually, intelligently you can see what you actually require. Not that everyone will require the same amount. Just like there's a plate of food so one person is big or one person is small. An elephant and an ant, both of them have different quotas. So everyone has a particular quota of prasādam they should take. Gradually by practice apart from this . . . (indistinct) . . . is required. It's common sense. Guest: There are two, two functions in the tongue, one is . . . (indistinct) . . . and one is . . . (indistinct) . . .? So which one . . . (indistinct) . . . preaching is a form of tapasya ? . . . (indistinct) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , the different austerities. The austerity of the tongue, the austerity of the mind, the austerity of the body. It is described in the Seventeenth Chapter and the, and the austerity of the tongue, of speech: It's an austerity, tapa . Austerity of speech consists of speaking truthfully, and beneficially, and then avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the *Vedas* regularly. So preaching is also control of the tongue. So our philosophy is that control doesn't mean that you stop. It's not possible. Can you stop eating? Can you stop sleeping? Can you stop different activities of going here and going there? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . everyone . . . (indistinct) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But that everything should be done in relationship to Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will become purified. Hṛṣīkeśa hṛṣīkeṇa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate . When the senses are engaged for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then they're no longer . . . the senses are compared to the sharp teeth of serpents, serpents' . . . (indistinct) . . . sharp teeth are naturally very dangerous. But when engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, the shark teeth, they're broken. So they can't feel any trouble. Although we are using the senses which is the cause of bondage, these senses employed in Kṛṣṇa's service, they no longer become a source of bondage, but of liberation. Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) Serpent is dangerous, so long he has got the fangs . . . (indistinct) . . . if the fang is taken away that means he's no more dangerous. So . . . (indistinct) . . . but if I am sure that his fangs are taken away . . . (indistinct) . . . senses are dangerous, it is compared with the serpent. (Sanskrit) But if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that (Sanskrit) the fangs are no more existing therefore it is no more dangerous. Devotee: Is it true or not true that Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta said that failure is the pillar of success and if it is true, what success . . . (indistinct) . . .? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know exactly if Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda has used this saying . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Failure is the pillar of success. But generally speaking, to paraphrase it, it means that we should learn from our mistakes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is success. If we learn our failure and try to rectify it, that is . . . (indistinct) *Devotee (3): I asked Prabhupāda the other day, because Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says: "Forget the past, it sleeps and never the future dream at all. Live with times that are of thee, and progress thee shall call." So I asked Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it possible to forget the past? Śrīla Prabhupāda said: "No, that would not be possible, but we can think like this, that 'I have done so many foolish things,' and rectify it. Not that we should remain fools. Then what would be the value of our experience? Just like a child, he can put his finger in the fan and it hurts. So then he learns not to do it again. But if he's so dull*-headed that again and again he puts his finger in the fan . . . basically our experience from the material world should be duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). That the material world is simply a place of misery. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhī-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). That we should perceive the miseries of birth and death, disease and old age. That should be our experience in the material world. From this we should aspire for real happiness . . . (indistinct) Devotee: So this . . . it explains also in the *Nectar of Instruction* that the man who may see others stealing and see others also put in jail and punished for stealing, he may have been caught himself and punished for stealing but yet he goes out and steals again. That this sticking his finger in the fan . . . again and again. Is this a symptom of the cause . . . (indistinct) . . .? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's called durācara , misbehavior. So atonement, according to Śukadeva Gosvāmī, is not simply repenting and saying, "Oh, I'm sorry." But becoming intelligent. Atonement means coming to the platform of real intelligence. That intelligence is that, "Why I am becoming implicated in this material world, in so many ways which will simply produce more and more suffering for myself?" Just like if he steals, he knows he goes to prison, so he knows it beforehand, he's not ignorant of the fact. In this instance, one . . . he knows that if he steals, he goes to prison. So in the same way we should become intelligent and should understand the laws of nature, the laws of God. That's athāto brahma jijñāsā. Inquiry what is the real nature, what is the real nature of Brahman, how Brahman has manifested this material world and how it's going on. Then become intelligent, act for your own self*-interest, become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Devotee: It is explained that the intelligence is the next door neighbor of the soul, can you explain exactly what that means, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: So what is his question? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His question is that the intelligence, sometimes you've gone like this, I've seen, you say that the soul and the intelligence are like that, that the intelligence is very close to the soul. Guest: (indistinct) . . . the relationship between the intelligence, working in the soul. Prabhupāda: Soul is above intelligence. This is the relationship. Intelligence is above the mind, and soul is above the intelligence. Senses, then mind, then intelligence, then the soul. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . matter. Prabhupāda: Yeah, subtle matter . . . (indistinct) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur (BG 3.42). Prabhupāda: Oh, indriyāṇi parāny āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42). Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ. *Prabhupāda: So when you engage yourself in soul's activities, then gradually your intelligence, mind, senses, become spiritualized, or original. Then material activities stop. At the present moment without being . . . (indistinct) . . . spiritually initiated . . . (indistinct) . . . we are acting on the platform of gross senses. But if we begin our activities from the opposite side, from soul side, then everything becomes spiritualized. But the question of giving up the senses, no, it has to be purified. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Senses . . . (indistinct) . . . it should be purified. At the present moment, on account of material conception of life everything is polluted with material ideas. So when it will be spiritualised, that is perfect. But instead of working uselessly, if we use our legs for going to the temple then it is spiritualized work. And instead of going to the cinema, if we go and see Deity then it is spiritual eyes. Instead of going to the restaurant, hotel, if we take prasādam , so then you spiritualize your tongue. Instead of talking nonsense, if you talk about Kṛṣṇa, then it is properly utilizing the tongue. In this way we have to practice. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Somebody is trying to stop sense activity. That is not possible. The sense activity should be cleansed. That is wanted. Otherwise how would he say hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). If you completely reject your senses then how we can serve Kṛṣṇa? It has to be purified. That is devotional service. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarnane (SB 9.4.18). Manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ , fix up your mind in Kṛṣṇa, then your talking will be purified, your walking will be purified, your handling will be purified, your hearing will be purified, everything will be purified. You cannot be desireless. But if we simply desire Kṛṣṇa, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Anyābhilāśitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). Our activities are going on on the platform of karma and jñāna . Or little more on yoga . Karma, jñāna and yoga . So one has to give up all these, karma , jñāna . The karmīs are working for sense gratification. The jñānīs are working for being liberated. The yogis are working for some magical power. Aṣṭa-siddhi . So one has to become free from all these desires. Anyābhilāsa-śūnyam, anyābhilāsa-śūnyam, jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Simply you should be prepared to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. . . (indistinct). If you are trying in different way, for sense gratification, karmīs are grossly, they want something for sense gratification . . . (indistinct) . . . they want nice car, wife, house, nice wife, nice . . . (indistinct) . . . so many things. That is karmī life. Jñānī , as they are baffled, they say, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , this endeavor for all mithyā . They take sannyasa , but after few days, again they take to the karmī's life. So that is also not good. Restless, so long you remain karmī, jñāni, yogi , restless. But when you become devotee you have no such desires, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). And then you become happy. Simply ready . . . (indistinct) . . . to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna, he after hearing Bhagavad-gītā , what was his position? His position was, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . Yes. Yes, I am now ready to do whatever You say." That is . . . (indistinct) . . . he did not become a karmī, jñāni, yogi . Simply . . . (indistinct) . . . to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat-prasādān madhusūdana. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Prabhupāda: This is wanted. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says: "You fight." He hesitated. "How can I fight? To kill my grandfather, my teacher? To kill my brother? My nephew? And so on, so on, so on. What You are advising, Kṛṣṇa, I cannot do." Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā was talked, and after learning he says: "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava ." . . . (indistinct) . . . this is perfection. He remained the same soldier. In the beginning, he was declining to fight, but at the end, he has agreed, "Yes." In the beginning it was "No." And when he was perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is "Yes." The materialist person, they are accustomed to say: "No." "No, God." When you become "Yes, God," then you are perfect. Jñānīs are "No, God." The karmīs are "No, God," yogis are "No, God," everyone, "No, God." Only the bhaktas , "Yes, God!" Yes. So that is perfect. This morning one Indian gentleman was talking about this impersonal, what was his question? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, some gentleman was asking the question in the morning? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . interpretation, that one person is interpreting in this way and another in that way, so they're saying they feel like if . . . Prabhupāda: So why they should interpret different way? Guest: What was the question? Prabhupāda: Just . . . explain to him. Devotee: There was an Indian man there and he was saying that, you were presenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the philosophy very nicely, but there are others who are presenting it in an impersonal way. And they are able through the scripture to support what they say. Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . now in our . . . (indistinct) . . . you can't actually substantiate that God is impersonal, because Kṛṣṇa is a person speaking to Arjuna, so where is the question of impersonal? . . . (indistinct) . . . so Prabhupāda said it's because they're speculating and cheating, that they're interpreting it in some devious manner, rather than taking what Kṛṣṇa said, literally, as it is . . . (indistinct) Guest: Well, I have given some thought to that. I found that whenever you take an impersonal view, it becomes a pure intellectual exercise, devoid of any feeling. And if you bring feeling into that, it becomes personal. Like, I don't believe that anything can survive without feeling. So . . . *Prabhupāda: It is in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it is clearly said, bhagavān uvāca . It is never said Brahman uvāca . (laughter) People have no eyes to see. The absolute truth is realized brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). But in the Bhagavad-gītā it is never said Paramātmā uvāca . (laughter) Or Brahman uvāca. Bhagavān uvāca! Vyāsadeva, He does not say kṛṣṇa uvāca , because Kṛṣṇa will be taken, misunderstood. Therefore (Vyāsadeva) directly says, śrī bhagavān uvāca. So where is impersonal? There is no question of impersonal. He clearly says bhagavān. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Bhagavān says, "I am everything." So where is imperson? How they can bring in impersonal at all? It is simply dragging the matter. This impersonal has killed India's Vedic culture. Guest: Well, the example is that Śaṅkarācārya, who was of course . . . Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya, he advised bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam , "Hey you rascal, whatever I have said, you just . . ." Guest: On the one hand he reached the height of that intellectual exercise, at the same time he realized that bhaja govindam. Prabhupāda: No. He is correct in the study. Because his mission was to stop atheism. At that time India was full of Buddhistic philosophy. Atheism. So his preaching was to stop Buddhism. Therefore, the Buddhists are śūnyavādis . So he said, "No, it is not śūnya . That is Brahman. This material world is false, . . . (indistinct) . . ." Lord Buddha said everything is false. He said: "No, the material world is false, Brahman is false, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. But he did not give any further information of Brahman. But at last he said brahma me govindaṁ brahmate bhaja govindam. Guest: There's a very nice story about this illusion. That once he was walking and someone who knew that Śaṅkarācārya preached this illusion business, was riding on an elephant, so he asked his driver, "Chase Śaṅkarācārya." And of course he did and Śaṅkarācārya started running. So this man said: "Why are you running, since this is illusion?" And he said: "So is my running." (laughter) He said: "So is my running, that's also an illusion." *Rūpānuga: But sometimes the impersonalists, they say, Prabhupāda, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is just the beginning platform, that after Kṛṣṇa consciousness then one can come to impersonal realization. They say that in the scriptures only Bhagavad*-gītā and a few scriptures teach about Kṛṣṇa but the rest of the Vedas don't even talk about Kṛṣṇa's name. So, therefore, this impersonalism is higher realization, but one comes to it, after bhakti . Prabhupāda: No. There are *Vedas* , there are so many names described. Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa by studying *Vedas* , then he has not studied *Vedas* . It is very confidential. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam ? If one has studied Veda , but has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then his labor is useless. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). If one is actually jñānavān, then he . . . (indistinct) . . . Śaṅkarācārya said bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam. That is real knowledge. But if one says that in the *Vedas* , you don't find Kṛṣṇa's name, then he has not studied Veda . Because Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). The actual purpose of studying *Vedas* means to understand Kṛṣṇa. If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). They have simply labored for nothing. Guest: Also this, another aspect was answered, the Vedic literature, all that we have today, is not a complete literature. We assume that perhaps some part of the literature has never been copied and was probably lost. So if His name doesn't occur in certain portion of *Vedas* , it doesn't mean that the name didn't occur in the *Vedas* . This is something that people have . . . Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa's name is very confidential. In the Atharva Veda , there is name, there is . . . Jīva Gosvāmī has quoted from Atharva Veda . There is Kṛṣṇa's name. And this, the best scholar of *Vedas* . . . (indistinct) . . . he says, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇa, Śaṅkarācārya. Then other ācāryas they have supported Kṛṣṇa's teachings, just like Rāmānujācārya, and . . . (indistinct) . . . he has quoted Vedic quotation, every śloka . So one has to learn the real *Vedas* , then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned," (Sanskrit). Everywhere is Kṛṣṇa's name. But one must be actually scholar in *Vedas* , then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the beginning, in the middle, and at the end." Devotee (2): In the glorifications of Ṛg Veda . . . (indistinct) . . . example of glorifications of Kṛṣṇa there? Prabhupāda: Everything is glorification of Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (3): Whenever Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the *Vedas* , He's mentioned as the Supreme. Some people, some scholars say: "Well, so many other demigods are mentioned far more often than Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa's mentioned to be the supermost. From the Atharva Veda , (Sanskrit). "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme." Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Either you accept this Kṛṣṇa's statement, or you reject Kṛṣṇa. But He says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat . What do you want more? Guest: Well, Prabhupādajī, if anyone has gone to *Gītā* and if he is still bothered by the historical evidence, I don't think he has read *Gītā* . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: So we should never really be bothered by this question of historical . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we have concentrated on *Gītā* . This movement—when I registered this association, so when I wrote "Kṛṣṇa consciousness," some friend said: "Why don't you write 'God consciousness'?" But no, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are particularly preaching Kṛṣṇa's teaching. Kṛṣṇa is God, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But if you think that there is another God then you may do your business. We are concerned with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We cannot allow any interpretation of Kṛṣṇa. That is our propaganda . . . (indistinct) . . . (aside) Yes? Guest (2): There is a Swami, Gangesvaranandaji . . . (indistinct) . . . *Vedas* . . . (indistinct) . . . books that Kṛṣṇa's name in the *Vedas* is mentioned. Prabhupāda: Ah? Devotee: Kṛṣṇa's name in the *Vedas* is already there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: He has clearly . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15)? Guest (3): The Māyāvādīs say that Vedānta is impersonal, and . . . (indistinct) . . . Vedānta . . . *Prabhupāda: You do not know what is Vedānta . . . (indistinct) . . . in the beginning of Vedānta , athāto brahma jijñāsā . "Now try to inquire about this Supreme . . . (indistinct) . . . Brahman." The next verse is janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), Brahman is there, from whom everything emanates. So now, what is that thing from which everything emanates? What is the nature of that thing? That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Bhāgavatam is the real explanation of Veda . Brahma-sūtra . . . (indistinct) . . . mahasyam brahma-sūtrānāṁ Vedasya parividyatam , this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Vedasya parividyatam . . . (indistinct) . . . avyayam, brahma-sūtrasya uvaca , by Vyāsadeva himself. Vyāsadeva is the writer of Vedānta -sūtra, so he's writing himself under the instruction of Nārada. So to understand Vedānta , you have to study Bhāgavatam . He's explained janmādy asya (SB 1.1.1). Brahman is the original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ. So what is the nature? Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca . . . (end) (Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla) Prabhupāda: Everyone is engaged in the business of sense gratification. Just like last night millions of men went to see the firework. So the firework, as well as the people went to see there, the expenditure was very heavy, I think, total? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned that with all of the cars going and what not, it probably amounted to about ten million dollars. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that petrol. But what was the purpose? The purpose was little sense gratification, "I shall see something illuminating." What was other purpose? No purpose. Simply to satisfy the eyes, to see something illuminating. That is one sense, eyes. Then there are other senses. They also want satisfaction. There are hands, there are legs, there are tongue, eyes, ears, nose. So every one, every one of these senses, they are engaged for sense satisfaction. So this is the life. But that sense satisfaction is differently exhibited for different bodies. Just like this firework, it was interesting to the human being. Human being has got a particular type of body, so it is interested to see the firework. But the cats and dogs, they are not interested. They do not know what is fireworks. They, while we are interested to see the firework, a hog may be interested to eat stool. If he gets some stool somewhere, he'll be interested than to see the firework. So because he has got a different body, he's interested differently. We are human beings, we are interested differently. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja rightly said, deha*-yogena dehinām ( SB 7.6.3). This sense gratification, varieties, according to the varieties of the body. Deha-yogena dehinām. *But this is arranged, this different process of sense gratification is arranged daivāt , by the superior arrangement. Daivāt. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām, sarvatra labhyate daivāt (SB 7.6.3). By the superior arrangement everywhere it is available. Either you become Lord Brahmā or you become a small ant, the process of sense gratification, arrangement is there. (aside) You can come in front. Rūpānuga: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Professor Dr. Sukla. He has written a very favorable review on your books. *Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (laughs) Yes, I've seen you. Thank you very much. I'm just explaining that sense gratification, different types of bodies differently . . . so that is arranged by the superior arrangement. Sarvatra labhyate daivāt . So it is available everywhere according to the body arrangement. Prahlāda Mahārāja says . . . where is that book, Prahlāda Mahārāja, Seventh Canto? Tat*-prayāso na kartavyo , don't waste your time for that purpose. Tat-prayāso na kartavyo. Why not? Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param . Simply wasting the valuable duration of life. Yata āyur-vyayaḥ. But practically we see that the whole world is spoiling the life simply for sense gratification, especially at the present moment. Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param. You can read. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Translation: "Endeavors merely for sense gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual profit. If one's endeavors are directed towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can surely attain the spiritual platform of self*-realization. There is no such benefit from engaging oneself in economic development." *Prabhupāda: This is our philosophy, and the whole world is engaged in economic development. So which is better? (laughs) Here it is said tat*-prayāso na kartavyo . We see, especially in the Western country, they are very busy for economic development, and unless one is engaged . . . I think that Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they questioned that in India, people being fatalist . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They questioned, many people think this is a hindrance to progress. *Prabhupāda: So what is progress? In India still, in so fallen condition, we have got practical experience. If there is some arrangement . . . sometimes we arrange Hare Kṛṣṇa festival. Each day not less than twenty thousand, thirty thousand, forty thousand people come. Although these, mostly these foreigners, they are chanting, and we are speaking in English, still, to hear the kīrtana , they come from remote villages. In Calcutta I have seen. That is natural tendency of Indians. Bhārata*-bhūmi , anyone who has taken birth in India, naturally Kṛṣṇa conscious. By artificial means, they are being suppressed. Just like this Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have questioned that . . . what they have said? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They said that there are many thinkers in India who consider that the Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore it doesn't encourage people to make material progress. *Prabhupāda: That economic development. Our ācāryas , practically in Indian civilization, there are so many books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big factories for economic development. You'll find Vyāsadeva has written so many books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned. Dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41,CC Adi 1.90), he dealt with these four subject matter, but not bhakti . Therefore Nārada Muni chastised him that, "You have wasted your time, simply writing on the subject matter of dharma , artha, kāma, mokṣa, catur varga ." Then, under his instruction, he wrote Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam simply on the glories of the Supreme Lord, without any attempt to write anything about dharma artha kāma mokṣa . In the beginning he introduces, gives introduction to his book, dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavo 'tra śrīmad-bhāgavate (SB 1.1.2), in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , dharma , artha , kāma , mokṣa , they are all kaitavas , cheating. These things are thrown away. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). So this kaitava , Śrīdhara Swami gives his commentary, atra mokṣa-vāñchan paryantaṁ nirastam . The desire for liberation is also rejected. Simply devotional service to the Lord. That is only business. So our, this propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is on the basis . . . it is called bhāgavata-dharma . Prahlāda Mahārāja begins his teaching that this bhāgavata-dharma should be imparted from the very beginning of life. And people are missing this opportunity. They are being allured by other business. The main business they are forgetting, neglecting, and they are being drawn, their attention is drawn, so many sporting, so many economic development, then other anarthas , drinking, gambling, slaughterhouse, so on, so on. So this is against human civilization. Therefore if you will give us some chance . . . just like you have given. What is that? Mr. Loomis: Could I ask a question? I look at this room and my senses are gratified by this room, by that painting, by beautiful flowers, by the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is pleasing to my ear, and I have to feel that my senses are able to help my spirit, or else there will not be this beauty in this room. But I don't understand very well when sense gratification is helpful and when it is not. *Prabhupāda: Sense gratification is never helpful. That is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that kāmasya nendriya-prītir (SB 1.2.10). Sense gratification is required as far as . . . as little as possible. Otherwise, not for sense gratification. Just like sleeping. Sleeping is required because this material body requires some rest. But not that we shall sleep twenty-four hours or twenty hours and enjoy, as in this country sometimes they enjoy sleeping. But sleeping is wasting time. So long we shall sleep we cannot do anything good work. Therefore it should be minimized. You cannot avoid sleeping altogether. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is called tapasya , or advancement of spiritual life. Eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna . They're required. So long we have got this body, we require to eat something, we require to sleep sometimes, we require a little sense gratification, and we require defense. But it should be minimized, not increased. That is tapasya . In the human life this is possible, this is possible. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. One can conquer over these things, by practice. The more we minimize this āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna , this means we are advanced in spiritual taste. It is practice. My, my personal life, I don't sleep at night. And nowadays, at most, one hour. Yes. But I take rest in the daytime, at least two to three hours. So it is not that I am sleeping one hour. I sleep three to four hours total. But if practiced, it can be reduced, practiced. We see in the life of Gosvāmīs. About them, it is said: nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. They conquered over sleeping, eating. If we conquer over eating, then we can conquer over sleeping and other things also. If we can control over this tongue, then we can control over the other senses very easily. That is a fact. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung, tar madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati, tā 'ke jetā koṭhina saṁsāre. Of all our senses the tongue is very, very prominent. So the first thing in spiritual advancement, the first thing is to control the tongue. In the śāstra also it is said sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). Our present senses are unable to understand sri kṛṣṇa nāmādi , the holy name of the Lord. Ādi , beginning from His name, nāma , then guṇa , qualities, then pastimes, then form. So people cannot understand the form of the Lord because they are not practiced to devotional service. They are more or less impersonalists. They cannot imagine that God has His form like us, because they are not sevonmukha. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi. Not to speak of the form, they cannot understand what is the holy name of the Lord, why they are chanting, what is the benefit. They cannot understand. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). The present senses cannot appreciate. It has to be purified. That purification begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Then God reveals. When we chant the holy name of the Lord, purified, that is bhakti. Bhakti means to become purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Nirmalam means completely cleansed of all dirty things. That is bhakti . Bhakti means to engage the senses, purified senses, in the service of the Lord. At the present moment, in conditioned stage, our senses are not purified. Therefore we are very, very anxious to engage the senses for sense gratification. And when they will be purified, then these senses will be engaged for the service of Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣikeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam. God's another name is Hṛṣīkeśa, master of the senses. Actually, we have got these senses. Suppose this hand is also one of the senses, to touch. We are claiming it is my hand, but it is not my hand. It is Kṛṣṇa's hand. Kṛṣṇa has given us to use it. Just like this room is not my room. They have given me for my use. Similarly, this body, actually, it is made by Kṛṣṇa. It is a machine manufactured by the material nature under the order of Kṛṣṇa. So actually it is not my body, it is Kṛṣṇa's body. Kṛṣṇa has given us. He has given you a particular type of body, He has given me a particular type of body, so many. Yantra , machine. Just like on a machine, motorcar, we sit down and travel here and there. So we wanted to travel in a certain way so we require some machine, and Kṛṣṇa has given us this machine manufactured by material nature. *Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). So Kṛṣṇa is within the core of heart of everyone. He knows what I want. He's giving us facilities. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and He's still giving direction, "All right, you want to get this facility, sit down on it and travel as you like." So we are getting different machines. Sometimes the human body machine, sometimes dog machine, sometimes cat machine, sometimes demigod machine. We are desiring all these things. American machine, Indian machine. When you are in Indian machine you are thinking, "I am Indian. My business is to satisfy Indian interests." You Americans are thinking, "This is American machine, it should be used for America's benefit." These are upādhi. Upādhi means designation. Neither I am Indian nor American nor cat nor dog. But as soon as I get a particular type of body, I think that I am cat, I am dog, I am Indian, I am America, I am black, I am white, this. This is our position. And people are struggling on this understanding, "I am this body." So long we think like that, "I am this body," we are no better than cats and dogs. He is also thinking "I am this body." Is it not? What do you think, Mr. Sukla? If I think I am this body, the dog is also thinking "I am this body," then where is the difference between the dog and me? What do you think, Mr . . . how shall I address you? Devotees: Loomis. Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Devotees: L*-o-o-m . . . Prabhupāda: So, what is the difference if a dog is thinking that, "I am dog," on account of his body, and if I am thinking I'm an Indian on account of this body. Then where is the difference between this dog and me? He is working under the impression that he's dog, and I am working under the impression I am Indian or American. Then where is difference? Yesterday you observed this great festival under this impression that, "I am American. I must observe this independence." Is it not? What was the meaning of this festival? It was interesting to the Americans. Other nations, they are not interested. They are not observing this independence festival. But the Americans are observing. Why? Under this impression that, "I am American." This yesterday . . . Mr. Loomis: Under the impression that what? Prabhupāda: Everyone is thinking that, "I am American." So if a human being is thinking "I am American," "Indian," or something like that, and if a dog is thinking "I am dog," then where is the difference between the mentalities? Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Of course, both, perhaps, are victim of some kind of illusion. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is illusion. That we are trying to describe. But this is going on. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," the human being is also thinking that "I am American," "I am Indian," or . . . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Then, perhaps, there is no difference. *Prabhupāda: No difference. That is described in the śāstra. Yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). This body is made of . . . everyone knows what is the composition: the bones, the flesh, the blood, the urine, the stool and so on, so on. The body, what is the composition? This is the composition. So if I identify with these bones, flesh, blood, muscle, veins, and stool, urine, so I am a living entity, I am all these bones and flesh and blood? Mr. Loomis: Is it better to have a human body as a machine to use than a cat's body? *Prabhupāda: Certainly, in the sense that you can utilize for higher purposes. Just like you have got this human form of body. Therefore you are sitting here to hear me. The dog has no such facility. The dog has got the same legs, hands or mouth and tongue, and so on, so on, in a different way. But it has no capacity to hear about spiritual advancement of life. Therefore the human body should be engaged not simply for sense gratification. Kāmasya nendriya*-prītir (SB 1.2.10). Find out this verse. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā . This is the business, tattva-jijñāsā. Tattva-jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is the only business. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kāmasya nendriya*-prītir labho jīveta yāvatā (SB 1.2.10). *Prabhupāda: Labho jīveta yāvatā . You can satisfy senses as far as it is required to live. That's all. Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā . The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . That is the only business. Mr. Loomis: For this machine? *Prabhupāda: All other business subordinate. That is only, because you have got this body, material body, it requires little rest, little sense gratification, little eating, little sleeping. We don't say stop it completely. That is not possible. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya , as far as it is required. As little as possible. That is spiritual advancement. If we make our progressive life engaged in understanding Kṛṣṇa instead of devoting in these unnecessary things, that is real life. That is real human life. The Vedic civilization is that. We find Vyāsadeva writing so exalted books, but life was very simple. People are, now in the modern civilization, people are accustomed only to the comforts of the body. Not for spiritual advance. That is the defect of modern civilization. (break) Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, no matter what material body you have, by material nature given you, one of the most predominating features of material life is pain. I want to address myself to this question, because in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we frequently face this problem. We have the pain of, for example, if you do tapasya , that's a pain to deprive your body of sense gratification. If you don't have sleep, you have to force yourself. If you have sickness, mental disturbances, so many things, then there's the other kind of pain. *Prabhupāda: That is being explained, that we don't want to stop sleeping, but minimize it. That is being already explained. We don't say complete negation. No. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya. Simply sleep as little as possible. Not that to take, just like in the Western countries, they take sleeping as enjoyment. Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They call it beauty rest. In Hawaii we went by a Beautyrest Mattress store. They call it beauty rest. Prabhupāda: Not for beauty rest. (laughter) Devotee (4): There's a kind of pain also, like when your false ego, when somebody tells you to do something or yells at you or gives you instruction. We all have this propensity to try and lord it over. When that's being denied, we feel a sense of pain, we feel like something, you know, be dejected in our service. The tendency is to want to be angry . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to be trained up under proper spiritual master. You cannot work whimsically. Then it will not help. Devotee (4): Should we always endeavor in spite of pain to push ourselves in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *Prabhupāda: There is no pain. It is painful in the beginning, but . . . everything. If you take some medicine, it is bitter, it is painful, but if it helps to cure disease, we must take it. "Because the medicine is bitter, I'll not take it." That is not sense. If you want to be cured from the disease, even the medicine is bitter, you must take. That is tapasya. Tapasya means things we are going to accept may be not very pleasing, but still we have to do it. That is tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We take bitter medicine just to cure our existence. Similarly, at the present moment, our existence is impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old age and disease on account of impure existence. Otherwise, we are spirit soul, we are eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So we are not in eternal existence, we are temporary existence. We have got this body, it will be finished. Then we have to accept another body, tatha dehāntara praptir . Then again you live in that body for some time, and again the body is finished. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). So this is going on. This is impure stage of our existence. So we have to purify it. Therefore to purify it tapasya required. Tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). The tapasya required. That tapasya has to be given lesson, trained up. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). That is brahmacārī system, to understand the value of life. These things are lacking in the present civilization, but it is essential. Without this, there is no meaning of human life. Then it is cats' and dogs' life. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). *So just we are trying to save men from this go*-kharaḥ civilization. Therefore it is not very appealing to the general mass of people. But still we have seen yesterday that as soon as we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone is attracted, everyone. You have seen yesterday? The drunkard, he was also attracted, and the child was attracted, the gray gentleman, he was also attracted, within the park. The child was dancing and the drunkard was dancing. Therefore this is the only means to elevate the modern men to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Have the writings of Vidyāpati come to attention, and if they have . . . Prabhupāda: That is very higher, not for ordinary persons. Vidyāpati's writing is meant for realized souls, not ordinary. Ordinary, they will take as love affairs between girls and boys. Therefore it is not for them. Those who are already advanced, liberated, then these love affairs of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, they will be discussed. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Is there any plan of bringing those things out, publishing them, his poems and translations? Prabhupāda: It is not for ordinary. Cāṇḍīdāsa, Vidyāpati. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to discuss Jayadeva's books, Vidyāpati's books, very confidentially amongst a few devotees. Not publicly. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: So you think they might be misused. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they are being misused. They take Kṛṣṇa as debauch. They do not understand. Therefore the Kṛṣṇa's līlā with the gopīs, they are described in the Tenth Canto. That is also middle of Tenth Canto, and nine cantos required to understand Kṛṣṇa, beginning with janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So that is the Absolute Truth. These things should be discussed in the beginning. Then when one is fully convinced that Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with this material world, as Śaṅkarācārya said, nārāyaṇaḥ para avyaktāt, avyaktāt anna sambhava. This material world is a production . . . (break) It has to be purified. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When it is nirmalam , then it is first-class. The first process is nirmalam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam (SB 7.5.23). This process is first-class. Not all of a sudden jump over. This literature, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . that should be kept in reserve for persons who are already liberated. Otherwise it will be misunderstood. Indian man: Going back to this sense question, where do you think the scheme of art fits into Kṛṣṇa conscious life? Prabhupāda: Art? *Indian man: Yes, like painting, or music, or literature, poetry, like that. Because the problem is that they, if one devotes oneself to these things, they are full*-time things, they take all your energy and time. And so . . . *Prabhupāda: Devotion means to engage your energy and time for Kṛṣṇa. Anyway you do that, that is utilized. Sarvopādhi*-vinir . . . tat-paratvena. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). So if you can serve Kṛṣṇa by your hand, by painting about Kṛṣṇa, that is service. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, if you hear the chanting, that is also service. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu , about Lord Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning. Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of pleasure, ānandamayo 'byāsāt . So these things are producing ānanda . If it is in connection with Kṛṣṇa, then it is service. (aside) So, Pālikā, you can take these fruits, cut into pieces and distribute it. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what if, ah, for instance, I'm too fallen to closely follow the regulative principles and I find myself in that way . . . Prabhupāda: Just explain. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Too fallen to follow the regulative principles is like saying a diseased man is too diseased to take medicine. So it's actually in our own self interest. We have to become enlightened, to understand what our real interest is. Yajña vai viṣṇu . Now we are thinking that our real interest is to gratify the senses. This is perishable. When we come to the understanding of ātmā, ahaṁ brahmāsmi , then we understand that our real self interest is to follow these regulative principles. As Prabhupāda said, in the beginning it may be painful, undoubtedly, because we are, for so many lifetimes addicted to sense gratification, but gradually more and more ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), when the heart becomes cleansed from the dirty misidentification with this gross and subtle material body, gradually more and more it becomes favorable . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa says: "Be happy by this sacrifice." Therefore the sacrifice must be joy-producing, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Simply that because we're presently in diseased condition, it may appear to be displeasing. Prabhupāda gives the example of someone who has jaundice. In the jaundice state, when you take sugar it appears very bitter. The perception is very bitter. But everyone knows that sugar is sweet. So in the same way, the regulative principles are naturally painful for someone who is irregular. For . . . engaged in bodily identification of life. But gradually it becomes more and more pleasing. Prabhupāda: Practical. Devotee: When we have Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (indistinct) . . . struggling for . . . (indistinct) . . . it has to be a struggle. Prabhupāda: What is struggle? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance and take prasādam . (devotee cheers) Prabhupāda: Is that struggle? You don't want to take it. Say that. Where is struggle? To take prasādam , nice prasādam , is struggle? (laughs) Devotee: No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You simply take prasādam , you haven't got to struggle. (laughter) But don't take anything else. Then it will be . . . (indistinct) Devotee: He's not struggling, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: At all. Devotee: He's not struggling taking prasādam . *Prabhupāda: Su*-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam. Rāja-vidyā rāja-guhyaṁ pavitram paramam idam. Su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam . Find out this verse. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the only way back to Godhead is to to attain the causeless mercy of the spiritual master. So . . . Prabhupāda: And he'll sleep. Just as your spiritual master will do for . . . (indistinct) . . . everything . . . (indistinct) . . . it is not magic. Kṛṣṇa, when He advised Arjuna, He never said that, "Arjuna, I'm your friend, God, I shall do everything . . . (indistinct) . . . you don't fight." Did He say? "You have to fight!" That's Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Not that by spiritual master's mercy . . . (indistinct) . . . you have to struggle. You have to follow the rules and regulations. Yes, what does He say? Devotee (3): "This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed." Devotee (3): So by struggling to overcome our senses, we can please you and obtain your mercy? Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) *Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda mentions in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , in the Third Canto, that a yogi is recommended to take foodstuffs, half as much as he desires, one quarter water, one quarter air, one quarter foodstuff. Is that fully recommended for a person in the the Kṛṣṇa consciousness society? If so, how can you be . . . (indistinct) . . .? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The basic principle is that—Prabhupāda mentioned earlier in this afternoon's talk—that if you can control the tongue, especially eating habits, then you'll be able to conquer other things such as sleep. Not only sleep, but also overeating produces other problems like sex desire. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha*-vegaṁ jihvā-vegam udaropastha-vegam . So jihva , the tongue and the belly, udara, upastha , genital, one straight line, like this. So there's a correlation. If one overindulges in eating, then it becomes very difficult also to conquer sex desire, which is the main attraction, or bondage within this material world, not only for the human being but for every living entity. So the principle is that if you don't overeat it will become easier for you to conquer all the senses, as Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, tongue is the most formidable of all the senses. Tāra madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudur . . . always lusting after more and more. Never satisfied. So we have to become sufficiently enlightened to regulate eating habits. This is done by taking prasādam at regular times, and gradually, intelligently you can see what you actually require. Not that everyone will require the same amount. Just like there's a plate of food so one person is big or one person is small. An elephant and an ant, both of them have different quotas. So everyone has a particular quota of prasādam they should take. Gradually by practice apart from this . . . (indistinct) . . . is required. It's common sense. Guest: There are two, two functions in the tongue, one is . . . (indistinct) . . . and one is . . . (indistinct) . . .? So which one . . . (indistinct) . . . preaching is a form of tapasya ? . . . (indistinct) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , the different austerities. The austerity of the tongue, the austerity of the mind, the austerity of the body. It is described in the Seventeenth Chapter and the, and the austerity of the tongue, of speech: It's an austerity, tapa . Austerity of speech consists of speaking truthfully, and beneficially, and then avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the *Vedas* regularly. So preaching is also control of the tongue. So our philosophy is that control doesn't mean that you stop. It's not possible. Can you stop eating? Can you stop sleeping? Can you stop different activities of going here and going there? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . everyone . . . (indistinct) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But that everything should be done in relationship to Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will become purified. Hṛṣīkeśa hṛṣīkeṇa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate . When the senses are engaged for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then they're no longer . . . the senses are compared to the sharp teeth of serpents, serpents' . . . (indistinct) . . . sharp teeth are naturally very dangerous. But when engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, the shark teeth, they're broken. So they can't feel any trouble. Although we are using the senses which is the cause of bondage, these senses employed in Kṛṣṇa's service, they no longer become a source of bondage, but of liberation. Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) Serpent is dangerous, so long he has got the fangs . . . (indistinct) . . . if the fang is taken away that means he's no more dangerous. So . . . (indistinct) . . . but if I am sure that his fangs are taken away . . . (indistinct) . . . senses are dangerous, it is compared with the serpent. (Sanskrit) But if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that (Sanskrit) the fangs are no more existing therefore it is no more dangerous. Devotee: Is it true or not true that Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta said that failure is the pillar of success and if it is true, what success . . . (indistinct) . . .? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know exactly if Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda has used this saying . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Failure is the pillar of success. But generally speaking, to paraphrase it, it means that we should learn from our mistakes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is success. If we learn our failure and try to rectify it, that is . . . (indistinct) *Devotee (3): I asked Prabhupāda the other day, because Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says: "Forget the past, it sleeps and never the future dream at all. Live with times that are of thee, and progress thee shall call." So I asked Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it possible to forget the past? Śrīla Prabhupāda said: "No, that would not be possible, but we can think like this, that 'I have done so many foolish things,' and rectify it. Not that we should remain fools. Then what would be the value of our experience? Just like a child, he can put his finger in the fan and it hurts. So then he learns not to do it again. But if he's so dull*-headed that again and again he puts his finger in the fan . . . basically our experience from the material world should be duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). That the material world is simply a place of misery. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhī-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). That we should perceive the miseries of birth and death, disease and old age. That should be our experience in the material world. From this we should aspire for real happiness . . . (indistinct) Devotee: So this . . . it explains also in the *Nectar of Instruction* that the man who may see others stealing and see others also put in jail and punished for stealing, he may have been caught himself and punished for stealing but yet he goes out and steals again. That this sticking his finger in the fan . . . again and again. Is this a symptom of the cause . . . (indistinct) . . .? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's called durācara , misbehavior. So atonement, according to Śukadeva Gosvāmī, is not simply repenting and saying, "Oh, I'm sorry." But becoming intelligent. Atonement means coming to the platform of real intelligence. That intelligence is that, "Why I am becoming implicated in this material world, in so many ways which will simply produce more and more suffering for myself?" Just like if he steals, he knows he goes to prison, so he knows it beforehand, he's not ignorant of the fact. In this instance, one . . . he knows that if he steals, he goes to prison. So in the same way we should become intelligent and should understand the laws of nature, the laws of God. That's athāto brahma jijñāsā. Inquiry what is the real nature, what is the real nature of Brahman, how Brahman has manifested this material world and how it's going on. Then become intelligent, act for your own self*-interest, become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Devotee: It is explained that the intelligence is the next door neighbor of the soul, can you explain exactly what that means, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: So what is his question? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His question is that the intelligence, sometimes you've gone like this, I've seen, you say that the soul and the intelligence are like that, that the intelligence is very close to the soul. Guest: (indistinct) . . . the relationship between the intelligence, working in the soul. Prabhupāda: Soul is above intelligence. This is the relationship. Intelligence is above the mind, and soul is above the intelligence. Senses, then mind, then intelligence, then the soul. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . matter. Prabhupāda: Yeah, subtle matter . . . (indistinct) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur (BG 3.42). Prabhupāda: Oh, indriyāṇi parāny āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42). Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ. *Prabhupāda: So when you engage yourself in soul's activities, then gradually your intelligence, mind, senses, become spiritualized, or original. Then material activities stop. At the present moment without being . . . (indistinct) . . . spiritually initiated . . . (indistinct) . . . we are acting on the platform of gross senses. But if we begin our activities from the opposite side, from soul side, then everything becomes spiritualized. But the question of giving up the senses, no, it has to be purified. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Senses . . . (indistinct) . . . it should be purified. At the present moment, on account of material conception of life everything is polluted with material ideas. So when it will be spiritualised, that is perfect. But instead of working uselessly, if we use our legs for going to the temple then it is spiritualized work. And instead of going to the cinema, if we go and see Deity then it is spiritual eyes. Instead of going to the restaurant, hotel, if we take prasādam , so then you spiritualize your tongue. Instead of talking nonsense, if you talk about Kṛṣṇa, then it is properly utilizing the tongue. In this way we have to practice. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Somebody is trying to stop sense activity. That is not possible. The sense activity should be cleansed. That is wanted. Otherwise how would he say hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). If you completely reject your senses then how we can serve Kṛṣṇa? It has to be purified. That is devotional service. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarnane (SB 9.4.18). Manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ , fix up your mind in Kṛṣṇa, then your talking will be purified, your walking will be purified, your handling will be purified, your hearing will be purified, everything will be purified. You cannot be desireless. But if we simply desire Kṛṣṇa, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Anyābhilāśitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). Our activities are going on on the platform of karma and jñāna . Or little more on yoga . Karma, jñāna and yoga . So one has to give up all these, karma , jñāna . The karmīs are working for sense gratification. The jñānīs are working for being liberated. The yogis are working for some magical power. Aṣṭa-siddhi . So one has to become free from all these desires. Anyābhilāsa-śūnyam, anyābhilāsa-śūnyam, jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Simply you should be prepared to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. . . (indistinct). If you are trying in different way, for sense gratification, karmīs are grossly, they want something for sense gratification . . . (indistinct) . . . they want nice car, wife, house, nice wife, nice . . . (indistinct) . . . so many things. That is karmī life. Jñānī , as they are baffled, they say, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , this endeavor for all mithyā . They take sannyasa , but after few days, again they take to the karmī's life. So that is also not good. Restless, so long you remain karmī, jñāni, yogi , restless. But when you become devotee you have no such desires, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). And then you become happy. Simply ready . . . (indistinct) . . . to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna, he after hearing Bhagavad-gītā , what was his position? His position was, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . Yes. Yes, I am now ready to do whatever You say." That is . . . (indistinct) . . . he did not become a karmī, jñāni, yogi . Simply . . . (indistinct) . . . to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat-prasādān madhusūdana. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Prabhupāda: This is wanted. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says: "You fight." He hesitated. "How can I fight? To kill my grandfather, my teacher? To kill my brother? My nephew? And so on, so on, so on. What You are advising, Kṛṣṇa, I cannot do." Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā was talked, and after learning he says: "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava ." . . . (indistinct) . . . this is perfection. He remained the same soldier. In the beginning, he was declining to fight, but at the end, he has agreed, "Yes." In the beginning it was "No." And when he was perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is "Yes." The materialist person, they are accustomed to say: "No." "No, God." When you become "Yes, God," then you are perfect. Jñānīs are "No, God." The karmīs are "No, God," yogis are "No, God," everyone, "No, God." Only the bhaktas , "Yes, God!" Yes. So that is perfect. This morning one Indian gentleman was talking about this impersonal, what was his question? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, some gentleman was asking the question in the morning? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . interpretation, that one person is interpreting in this way and another in that way, so they're saying they feel like if . . . Prabhupāda: So why they should interpret different way? Guest: What was the question? Prabhupāda: Just . . . explain to him. Devotee: There was an Indian man there and he was saying that, you were presenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the philosophy very nicely, but there are others who are presenting it in an impersonal way. And they are able through the scripture to support what they say. Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . now in our . . . (indistinct) . . . you can't actually substantiate that God is impersonal, because Kṛṣṇa is a person speaking to Arjuna, so where is the question of impersonal? . . . (indistinct) . . . so Prabhupāda said it's because they're speculating and cheating, that they're interpreting it in some devious manner, rather than taking what Kṛṣṇa said, literally, as it is . . . (indistinct) Guest: Well, I have given some thought to that. I found that whenever you take an impersonal view, it becomes a pure intellectual exercise, devoid of any feeling. And if you bring feeling into that, it becomes personal. Like, I don't believe that anything can survive without feeling. So . . . *Prabhupāda: It is in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it is clearly said, bhagavān uvāca . It is never said Brahman uvāca . (laughter) People have no eyes to see. The absolute truth is realized brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). But in the Bhagavad-gītā it is never said Paramātmā uvāca . (laughter) Or Brahman uvāca. Bhagavān uvāca! Vyāsadeva, He does not say kṛṣṇa uvāca , because Kṛṣṇa will be taken, misunderstood. Therefore (Vyāsadeva) directly says, śrī bhagavān uvāca. So where is impersonal? There is no question of impersonal. He clearly says bhagavān. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Bhagavān says, "I am everything." So where is imperson? How they can bring in impersonal at all? It is simply dragging the matter. This impersonal has killed India's Vedic culture. Guest: Well, the example is that Śaṅkarācārya, who was of course . . . Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya, he advised bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam , "Hey you rascal, whatever I have said, you just . . ." Guest: On the one hand he reached the height of that intellectual exercise, at the same time he realized that bhaja govindam. Prabhupāda: No. He is correct in the study. Because his mission was to stop atheism. At that time India was full of Buddhistic philosophy. Atheism. So his preaching was to stop Buddhism. Therefore, the Buddhists are śūnyavādis . So he said, "No, it is not śūnya . That is Brahman. This material world is false, . . . (indistinct) . . ." Lord Buddha said everything is false. He said: "No, the material world is false, Brahman is false, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. But he did not give any further information of Brahman. But at last he said brahma me govindaṁ brahmate bhaja govindam. Guest: There's a very nice story about this illusion. That once he was walking and someone who knew that Śaṅkarācārya preached this illusion business, was riding on an elephant, so he asked his driver, "Chase Śaṅkarācārya." And of course he did and Śaṅkarācārya started running. So this man said: "Why are you running, since this is illusion?" And he said: "So is my running." (laughter) He said: "So is my running, that's also an illusion." *Rūpānuga: But sometimes the impersonalists, they say, Prabhupāda, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is just the beginning platform, that after Kṛṣṇa consciousness then one can come to impersonal realization. They say that in the scriptures only Bhagavad*-gītā and a few scriptures teach about Kṛṣṇa but the rest of the Vedas don't even talk about Kṛṣṇa's name. So, therefore, this impersonalism is higher realization, but one comes to it, after bhakti . Prabhupāda: No. There are *Vedas* , there are so many names described. Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa by studying *Vedas* , then he has not studied *Vedas* . It is very confidential. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam ? If one has studied Veda , but has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then his labor is useless. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). If one is actually jñānavān, then he . . . (indistinct) . . . Śaṅkarācārya said bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam. That is real knowledge. But if one says that in the *Vedas* , you don't find Kṛṣṇa's name, then he has not studied Veda . Because Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). The actual purpose of studying *Vedas* means to understand Kṛṣṇa. If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). They have simply labored for nothing. Guest: Also this, another aspect was answered, the Vedic literature, all that we have today, is not a complete literature. We assume that perhaps some part of the literature has never been copied and was probably lost. So if His name doesn't occur in certain portion of *Vedas* , it doesn't mean that the name didn't occur in the *Vedas* . This is something that people have . . . Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa's name is very confidential. In the Atharva Veda , there is name, there is . . . Jīva Gosvāmī has quoted from Atharva Veda . There is Kṛṣṇa's name. And this, the best scholar of *Vedas* . . . (indistinct) . . . he says, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇa, Śaṅkarācārya. Then other ācāryas they have supported Kṛṣṇa's teachings, just like Rāmānujācārya, and . . . (indistinct) . . . he has quoted Vedic quotation, every śloka . So one has to learn the real *Vedas* , then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned," (Sanskrit). Everywhere is Kṛṣṇa's name. But one must be actually scholar in *Vedas* , then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the beginning, in the middle, and at the end." Devotee (2): In the glorifications of Ṛg Veda . . . (indistinct) . . . example of glorifications of Kṛṣṇa there? Prabhupāda: Everything is glorification of Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (3): Whenever Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the *Vedas* , He's mentioned as the Supreme. Some people, some scholars say: "Well, so many other demigods are mentioned far more often than Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa's mentioned to be the supermost. From the Atharva Veda , (Sanskrit). "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme." Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Either you accept this Kṛṣṇa's statement, or you reject Kṛṣṇa. But He says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat . What do you want more? Guest: Well, Prabhupādajī, if anyone has gone to *Gītā* and if he is still bothered by the historical evidence, I don't think he has read *Gītā* . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: So we should never really be bothered by this question of historical . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we have concentrated on *Gītā* . This movement—when I registered this association, so when I wrote "Kṛṣṇa consciousness," some friend said: "Why don't you write 'God consciousness'?" But no, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are particularly preaching Kṛṣṇa's teaching. Kṛṣṇa is God, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But if you think that there is another God then you may do your business. We are concerned with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We cannot allow any interpretation of Kṛṣṇa. That is our propaganda . . . (indistinct) . . . (aside) Yes? Guest (2): There is a Swami, Gangesvaranandaji . . . (indistinct) . . . *Vedas* . . . (indistinct) . . . books that Kṛṣṇa's name in the *Vedas* is mentioned. Prabhupāda: Ah? Devotee: Kṛṣṇa's name in the *Vedas* is already there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: He has clearly . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15)? Guest (3): The Māyāvādīs say that Vedānta is impersonal, and . . . (indistinct) . . . Vedānta . . . *Prabhupāda: You do not know what is Vedānta . . . (indistinct) . . . in the beginning of Vedānta , athāto brahma jijñāsā . "Now try to inquire about this Supreme . . . (indistinct) . . . Brahman." The next verse is janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), Brahman is there, from whom everything emanates. So now, what is that thing from which everything emanates? What is the nature of that thing? That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Bhāgavatam is the real explanation of Veda . Brahma-sūtra . . . (indistinct) . . . mahasyam brahma-sūtrānāṁ Vedasya parividyatam , this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Vedasya parividyatam . . . (indistinct) . . . avyayam, brahma-sūtrasya uvaca , by Vyāsadeva himself. Vyāsadeva is the writer of Vedānta -sūtra, so he's writing himself under the instruction of Nārada. So to understand Vedānta , you have to study Bhāgavatam . He's explained janmādy asya (SB 1.1.1). Brahman is the original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ. So what is the nature? Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca . . . (end) Prabhupāda: You economically prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is simple and inexpensive life. Devotees: Yes, jaya . Mercy. Prabhupāda: Food, diet, living condition, healthy, hygienic, everything. You prove that this is the best way of life. That's a fact. From all sides, prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential for the human society, to make them happy in this life and next life. And that is a fact. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda? Today I want to discuss about the manifestation of matter from pradhāna . Now Lord Kapiladeva describes that pradhāna is the undifferentiated sum total of all material elements. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mahat*-tattva ? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, pradhāna . Then from pradhāna , by the action of time this mahat*-tattva is generated. Now we were a little confused about that. He said by the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency there is hiraṇmaya, hiraṇmaya is produced within mahat-tattva , and this hiraṇmaya is self-effulgent. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's effulgent. Prabhupāda: Hiraṇmaya ? Hari-śauri: Effulgent. Prabhupāda: Oh, effulgent, yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now our point is whether this hiraṇmaya . . . in the mahat*-tattva , the relationship between these two and pradhāna , how does that relate each other? It's not very clear in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . We're not very clear, this point. It said from pradhāna , by the impregnation with the Lord's internal potency, the hiraṇmaya is produced. That's actually the beginning of the injection of jīvas within these material modes. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is little complicated. So is it not clear from the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is little difficult to understand the phenomenal descriptions. *Prabhupāda: In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, nityānanda-tattva ? You can read it, you'll get some clue. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: We also get some clue from First Canto, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , in the puruṣa incarnations, where it explains about tattva . But there is a difference between . . . now our understanding is this: pradhāna , both pradhāna and mahat-tattva , they are eternal, though they are material manifestations. Prabhupāda: Everything eternal. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, eternal in the sense that it's different from prakṛti . Now prakṛti is, when it is completely manifested . . . Prabhupāda: Prakṛti, pradhāna, puruṣa, these things are little complicated. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we wanted to clarify this, because this is the nice thing that we can show that matter comes from life. This is the source. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sa īkṣata, sa asṛjata , by the glance of Mahā*-Viṣṇu . . . eko nārāyaṇa āsīt. In the beginning, Nārāyaṇa was there. There was no Lord Śiva, no neither Brahmā. This mantra was there. So originally, by the glance . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: By the glance of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: We can prove it that how by the sunshine everything is growing, how it is. Your molecule and so on, so on, you can describe. Actually, from the sunshine the trees are growing, leaves are coming. As soon as there is no sunshine, immediately they fall down, the leaves, and the tree becomes without any leaves. How this happens? The same process. The sunshine produces so many things. Similarly, by the glance of the Supreme, the material nature becomes agitated and the three guṇas become manifest. In this way these are described there. The same process. How from the sunshine the leaves are coming out, what are the molecular changes, if you can study the same process. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) . . . with this hiraṇmaya , the relationship between mahat*-tattva and the hiraṇmaya is clear, then I think at least we can have some idea. So we are little confused on this very point, that it is also said pradhāna is the twenty-four elements that doesn't contain time. Prabhupāda: Pradhāna is the ingredient. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is the sum total of the unmanifested material elements. Now from pradhāna actually mahat*-tattva is manifested. In mahat-tattva there is a basic difference that there is some . . . already some manifestations in mahat-tattva . Rūpānuga: Categories. *Prabhupāda: Total material elements, mahat*-tattva . Rūpānuga: Is that differentiated? *Prabhupāda: Mahat*-tattva is differentiated. Rūpānuga: Different categories? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, the time element is there in mahat*-tattva , so it is already twenty-five elements there including time. At this stage also, the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency means that the jīvas are already impregnated here from pradhāna . So here the living entities are in pure goodness. *Prabhupāda: The living entities are always in pure goodness. This material covering is separated. The living entities can be freed from material covering at any moment. Just like water and oil, it is always separated—it does not mix. The Vedic mantra also says, asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. Actually, it is not mixed, but it is covered. Such covering can be taken away at any moment simply by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate ( BG 14.26). I think in First Canto, that description you try to understand, you'll get. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now in the First Canto in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam also it is not very clear. *Prabhupāda: Then Second Canto, the development of sṛṣṭi*-tattva , there you'll get. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think there is also reference in the Bhagavad*-gītā , this Hiraṇmaya, because sometimes it's also called Brahman. Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti . What? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Brahman. *Prabhupāda: Brahman, yes. He's called Hiraṇya*-garbha, Brahmā. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hiraṇya*-garbha. It's also said in this state, pradhāna state, the cause and effect are not clearly manifested. *Prabhupāda: Caitanya caritāmṛta , did you refer nityānanda*-tattva ? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I haven't studied that yet. Prabhupāda: Read it, you'll get clue there. Maybe in the Third Chapter. Bring up here. We shall . . . first part, take it. *Rūpānuga: Ādi*-līlā ? Prabhupāda: First part, take it. Bṛṣākapi: Chapter Three? Prabhupāda: In Muslim country, Christians, or the Americans preaching Hindu religion, it has been taken very seriously in Iran. Three different elements: preaching center is Muhammadan, and the preacher an American, and the cult Hindu. (laughs) So the princess of Iran and her husband, they are, up to date, they are very much appreciating. The daughter of Shah. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, you read the Contents. Rūpānuga: Or the index maybe. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: No, the Summary. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Chapter Three. "In this chapter the author has fully discussed the reason for the descent of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, after displaying His pastimes as Lord Kṛṣṇa, thought it wise to make His advent in the form of a devotee to explain personally the transcendental mellow reciprocations of service and the love between Himself and His servants, friends, parents and fiancees. According to the Vedic literature, the foremost occupational duty for humanity in this age of Kali is nāma*-saṅkīrtana , or congregational chanting of the holy name of the Lord. The incarnation for this age especially preaches this process, but only Kṛṣṇa Himself can explain the confidential loving service performed in the four principal varieties of loving affairs between the Supreme Lord and His devotees. Lord Kṛṣṇa therefore personally appeared, with His plenary portions, as Lord Caitanya. As stated in this chapter, only for that purpose did Lord Kṛṣṇa appear personally in Navadvīpa in the form of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja has herein presented much authentic evidence from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and other scriptures to substantiate the identity of . . ." *Prabhupāda: You are reading Caitanya Mahāprabhu. About Nityānanda, see the Contents? No, in the beginning. Chapter where is Contents. Nityānanda*-tattva . *Rūpānuga: "The Glories of Lord Nityānanda*-Balarāma." Prabhupāda: Fifth Chapter? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. "This chapter is chiefly devoted to describing the essential nature and the glories of Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the Absolute Personality of Godhead, and His first expansion in a form for pastimes is Śrī Balarāma. Beyond the limitation of this material world is the spiritual sky, paravyoma , which has many spiritual planets, the supreme of which is called Kṛṣṇaloka. Kṛṣṇaloka, the abode of Kṛṣṇa, has three divisions, which are known as Dvārakā, Mathurā and Gokula. In that abode that Personality of Godhead expands Himself into four plenary portions—Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma, Pradyumna (the transcendental Cupid) and Aniruddha. They are known as the original quadruple forms. In Kṛṣṇaloka is a transcendental place known as Śvetadvīpa, or Vṛndāvana. Below Kṛṣṇaloka, in the spiritual sky, are the Vaikuṇṭha planets. On each Vaikuṇṭha planet a four*-handed Nārāyaṇa, expanded from the first quadruple manifestation, is present. The Personality of Godhead known as Śrī Balarāma in Kṛṣṇaloka is the original Saṅkarṣaṇa (attracting Deity), and from this Saṅkarṣaṇa expands another Saṅkarṣaṇa, called Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa, who resides in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. By His internal potency, Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa maintains the transcendental existence of all the planets in the spiritual sky, where all the living beings are eternally liberated souls. The influence of the material energy is conspicuous there by its absence. On those planets the second quadruple manifestation is present. Outside of the Vaikuṇṭha planets is the impersonal manifestation of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, which is known as the Brahmaloka. On the other side of the Brahmaloka is the spiritual kāraṇa-samudra , or Causal Ocean. The material energy exists on the other side of the Causal Ocean, without touching it. In the Causal Ocean is Mahā-Viṣṇu, the original puruṣa expansion from Saṅkarṣaṇa. This Mahā-Viṣṇu places His glance over the material energy, and by a reflection of His transcendental body He amalgamates Himself within the material elements. As the source of the material elements, the material energy is known as pradhāna , and as the source of the manifestations of the material energy it is known as māyā . But material nature is inert in that she has no independent power to do anything. She is empowered to make the cosmic manifestation by the glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Therefore the material energy is not the original cause of the material manifestation. Rather, the transcendental glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu over the material nature produces that cosmic manifestation." Prabhupāda: So you try to understand this, everything will be clear. Material energy has no power to create. It is this glance that makes material energy energetic. Chemical combination, that alkaline and acid, they create some agitation, effervescence, but it is done by the chemist. He mixes the two liquids, and there is effervescence. It is like that. So you read that chapter carefully, you'll solve your problem. (pause) *Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's said in the mahat*-tattva when the Lord glances or impregnates, that the glancing . . . Prabhupāda: That is spiritual. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it's still spiritual. *Prabhupāda: That glancing is spiritual. So matter itself cannot do anything. Aja*-jala-stana , it has been given. Aja-jala-stana , the nipples in the throat, neck. As there are some nipples, nipples useless, that is not milk-giving nipples. So nature is creating. They, generally, they say: "By nature," but nature has no power. It is matter. When there is glance of Saṅkarṣaṇa or Viṣṇu, that will do. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In that state, when a living entity's impregnated in this state, it is also said that it is in pure goodness. Prabhupāda: Pure goodness always. It is simply covered. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is not the completely manifested yet, but then it says by the contamination of pure goodness by ahaṅkāra , then starts material ego. From there, everything is going to manifest. So once we come to material ego then it seems clear. *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out, puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: "The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species." (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: How does the contaminated ego or contaminated consciousness differ from false ego? Prabhupāda: Hmm? That is contaminated ego, false ego. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we have a subdivision in the Third Canto for internal subtle senses. It is said mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness, and this ego is false ego, and another division is contaminated consciousness. Prabhupāda: This is false ego, "I am this matter. I am this body." This is false ego. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but why it is . . . Prabhupāda: Ego is there, but this is false ego. Rūpānuga: Then by association with the modes there is contaminated consciousness. Prabhupāda: This false ego develops. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: But still in this verse on Chapter Twenty*-six, verse fourteen, it says there are four internal subtle senses. Now these four senses are mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness. Devotee: Is that real ego, the soul? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But how can it be the senses? Rūpānuga: Here we are. "The internal subtle senses are experienced as having four aspects in the shape of mind, intelligence, ego and contaminated consciousness. Distinctions between them can be made only by different functions, since they represent different characteristics." Purport: "The four internal senses or subtle senses described herein are defined by different characteristics. When pure consciousness is polluted by material contamination, and identification with the body becomes predominant, this is called false ego. Consciousness is the function of the soul, and therefore behind consciousness there is soul. When consciousness is polluted by material contamination, this is called ahaṅkāra ." *Prabhupāda: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . The same thing. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-sthaḥ bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is this ego mentioned here, is it a false ego? That's what I understand. Prabhupāda: Not real. Real ego is "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Rūpānuga: Is there false ego in different modes? Like false ego in the mode of ignorance, false in the mode of passion or goodness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: So the consciousness can be contaminated according to the mode in which it's associating. *Prabhupāda: Yes, prakṛti*-jān guṇān. Rūpānuga: Yes. So I am identifying with my body in any mode, that is false ego. But my consciousness is contaminated by a particular mode—may be passion, may be ignorance, may be goodness. So then my consciousness is contaminated. So false ego is the base of all material activities, but I may be acting in a certain mode, contaminated in a certain way. Is that right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: That is what it means. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everything clear, these four internal subtle senses? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: What else you got? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, consciousness is a symptom of life, so when we say contaminated consciousness, the quality of life is there, but somehow that . . . Prabhupāda: That is mixed with material modes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Rūpānuga: Originally it is goodness. Very . . . pure goodness, you say. Originally in the beginning is . . . Prabhupāda: I give the example, just like water falling from the sky. It is crystal clear, distilled water. But as soon as touches the earth, it becomes muddy. But that muddiness can be filtered. Rūpānuga: Plus muddiness is the character of the mud, not the consciousness. And it can be cleansed, filtered out. Prabhupāda: Yes, that filtering process is devotional service. So unless the water is different from the precipitated matter, how it can be filtered? Svarūpa Dāmodara: So far we are concerned, prakṛti is clear, but the source of prakṛti is little, ah . . . so we'll try to . . . we want to show this, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our chapter on some sort of creation, creation of material manifestation. Prabhupāda: You'll get this from Second Canto. *Rūpānuga: Second Canto. That's that "First Step in Self*-Realization" chapter? Sadāpūta: Fifth chapter, sixth chapter—two chapters. Prabhupāda: Atra sargo visargaś ca (SB 2.10.1), that verse, Second Canto, you find out. Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is matter generated within a given body, like the body of a human being? While it's living, is matter generated and annihilated within that body during the time of life? Prabhupāda: Body is matter. Whole body is combination of matter. Sadāpūta: Right. But does the living entity within, or the Supersoul . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, within. Sadāpūta: Does it generate matter, so say the body could get heavier or lighter because of that? Prabhupāda: Because the living entity is there, matter is generated. Just like a tree, living entity is there, and big log, wood, is generated. Rūpānuga: Like that stone. That stone is increasing its weight, so when someone goes to see the stone he sees, ah, the stone is bigger and heavier also. So that increased material or matter that makes up the bigger size of the stone, is that matter being generated from the soul? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: From the spirit soul. So spirit soul has power . . . Prabhupāda: Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Rūpānuga: Ah! Prabhupāda: Similarly, from the spirit soul everything has come out. Rūpānuga: So spirit soul can create matter. Prabhupāda: Actually, from life matter is generated. Rūpānuga: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Not from matter life is generated. That is wrong. Sadāpūta: There are some people who have done measurements and . . . Prabhupāda: Measurement is there in the Vedic literature, Upaniṣad, Purāṇa . Rūpānuga: Is it that the living entity, when he creates this matter to expand, like the stone is growing, does he manufacture this material from the etheric platform, or does he . . . Prabhupāda: According to his desire he can. Rūpānuga: Simply by desiring. Prabhupāda: What is that one verse? Icchā dveṣaḥ samutthena sarge yānti . . . *Rūpānuga: There have been some . . . modern scientists have done some experiments showing that in the soil there are organisms, micro*-organisms and earthworms, that can produce chemicals, increasing just simply by their presence. Prabhupāda: Yes. I have given that example; already he has mentioned. Rūpānuga: Pasteur? Prabhupāda: No, no, this lemon. Rūpānuga: A lemon tree. Prabhupāda: A lemon tree is producing chemicals. Sadāpūta: Some people would say the lemon tree was simply taking food and rearranging it to produce the lemon juice. Prabhupāda: Yes. But the tree is the source, but everything is there in the earth. But God's creation is so nice that through the tree the chemical is coming. The chemical is there in the earth, but the seed of the lemon tree, when it grows, it extracts the particular type of chemical. Sadāpūta: We were wondering then if also it could produce matter, instead of taking from the earth and rearranging it. *Prabhupāda: No, earth is the source of everything. Sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī (SB 1.10.4), you get from . . . actually you are getting all chemicals from the earth. Rūpānuga: So they are already there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: Created by Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. The . . . (indistinct) . . . is there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's trying to mention an experiment in science. There's a man called . . . Prabhupāda: That is your duty, to mention . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: He tries to show that the living system . . . *Prabhupāda: No, if we can see practically different seeds are exacting different color, different flavor, different chemicals. Everything is coming from the earth, sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī . Everything is coming. Rūpānuga: So the plant . . . Prabhupāda: Simply outside arrangement, how to take it. Rūpānuga: So in other words, the tree or the plant in agriculture takes the chemicals from the soil and . . . Prabhupāda: The seed, as soon as come in touch with the earth, the seed exacts particular chemical and everything from there. This is the arrangement. Rūpānuga: So that spirit soul in the seed, he is not creating anything; he is taking. Prabhupāda: Spirit soul, according to his karma , takes shelter of the situation. But the seed, the chemical composition, exacts the desired. Rūpānuga: It's all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Can the seed do that without the spirit soul being present within the seed? Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Can the seed extract anything without the spirit soul being present there? *Prabhupāda: No. Seed is instrumental. Just like you have to do something, you require an instrument. Actually, according to the desires of the living entity, he's given instrument, bhrāmayan sarva*-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). Yantra . You require something, you require a particular yantra or machine. So seed is practically the machine, and the living entity is using it to satisfy his desires. Hari-śauri: So that growth of matter, that's the matter is coming from outside, and the spirit soul is simply taking it and expanding his body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sadāpūta: Is earth still being manifested from ether? Like the description in *Bhāgavatam* is from sound, and then through different elements finally down to earth. Is that still happening today? Prabhupāda: Every . . . always happening. Nature's law is going on. Sadāpūta: Yes. So what I was wondering, is like earth still being manifested in living bodies from sound and so on, like the chemists . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. The process is going on. I've described. That is going on. Rūpānuga: So the spirit soul is in the seed, and the seed interacts with the other chemicals to make growth. So if the chemicals are not there in the earth, then that seed cannot make those chemicals. Prabhupāda: No, chemical is there in the earth. According to the seed it is exacted. Just like a chemist will analyze or they separate the ingredient, so much this percentage, so much that percentage, so much that. Everything is there. Similarly, within the earth everything is there. The seed is the instrument and the living entity is the exactor—what is that? Exactor? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. He's executor. Rūpānuga: He takes, utilizes. *Prabhupāda: Utilizer. Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). Svarūpa Dāmodara: Extracts. Rūpānuga: Extracts from. Prabhupāda: Extracts. Rūpānuga: Suppose like now, just like this Vedic injunction against artificial fertilizers in the soil, suppose, as modern farmers are doing, they use this artificial fertilizer and the soil becomes depleted in certain minerals. Prabhupāda: That means artificial is the same principle. You are living entity; by artificial fertilizer you are exacting something from the earth, the same principle. Rūpānuga: Now suppose we take so many chemicals from the earth and they may become a little depleted. Can those chemicals be replaced by the earth itself as the ongoing process of nature? Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from the earth. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is . . . Sadāpūta has an interesting point in science itself, that somebody tried to show that in the living body, when the life is within matter, the, ah, it doesn't follow the conservation of matter. Science, one of the basic principles of science, is that . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. All the living conditions are there in the matter, provided there is the living being, that's all. Just like a dead body, it is not that the living condition is finished. No. The living conditions are there. That particular soul has left that body, but the dead body is also full of ingredients of living condition. So many germs are coming out when the body is decomposed. You say decomposition, but even in that decomposed condition there is living condition. So the living conditions are already there, matter in any form. So how these rascals say there is no life in the moon planet? That is not possible. The living conditions are always there in the matter. This is the example. Now, a decomposed body, the living being has left, now it is dead matter, but still, the living beings are coming out. How it is? That means matter has always the potency to give shelter to the living entity. So it is impossible that there is no living being in the moon planet. It is bogus. We cannot accept it. Any condition there is provision for the living beings. We see actually, in the earth, in the air, in the water, in the fire, these five elements. Whatever you take, these five elements in different proportions. So the living . . . just like from perspiration living entities come out. It is impossible there is no living entities. That is bogus complete. You can challenge like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The living entities that they are familiar with. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Kūpa*-māṇḍūkya-nyāya, again. They know some certain type of living entities, that's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they think that all the living entities would be like that. *Prabhupāda: That is their kūpa*-māṇḍūkya-nyāya , Dr. Frog. But the fact is, any condition of material existence, there is possibility of living entity there. Sarva-ga, sthāṇur, acalo'yaṁ sarva-ga. Everywhere there is living entity. It is impossible to conclude that on other planets there is no living entity. It is not possible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it possible to do some experiments? Prabhupāda: You experiment. You see a dead body. It is obnoxious smelling, but living entities coming. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, to show that matter is generated by life, we want to do some experiment. Prabhupāda: That is there. Every day we are experiencing, huh? Just the same seed, and a living entity comes and it becomes a tree and it grows, big tree, huge body. And as soon as it is dead, the body is not increasing. This is experiment. (break) Rūpānuga: You mean two things. You mean that . . . *Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from life. Kṛṣṇa says—He's the supreme life—He says, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva*-samanvitāḥ (BG 10.8). He's the origin of everything, both matter and life, everything. So matter also coming from life, life is also coming from life. Therefore life is the original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So janmādy asya yataḥ is life. That is explained in the Bhāgavata. Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ. That source of everything is life and is fully conscious of everything what is happening. Anvayāt , indirectly and directly, fully conscious. That is life. Rūpānuga: So that matter is coming from Kṛṣṇa originally. Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from Him. Rūpānuga: Then the spirit soul, he has his activities, and he's active and the matter . . . Prabhupāda: He may be inactive, but his subtle desires is active. That is creating. Matter is supplying, that is pradhāna of life. Rūpānuga: So he creates the situation for the matter, but he doesn't create the matter itself. Prabhupāda: Yes. He wants, "I want this," and God is there, He asks material energy to supply the ingredients, and he creates the different situation. (break) That's all. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you very much, Prabhupāda. (indistinct comments) (end) Prabhupāda: You economically prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is simple and inexpensive life. Devotees: Yes, jaya . Mercy. Prabhupāda: Food, diet, living condition, healthy, hygienic, everything. You prove that this is the best way of life. That's a fact. From all sides, prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential for the human society, to make them happy in this life and next life. And that is a fact. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda? Today I want to discuss about the manifestation of matter from pradhāna . Now Lord Kapiladeva describes that pradhāna is the undifferentiated sum total of all material elements. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mahat*-tattva ? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, pradhāna . Then from pradhāna , by the action of time this mahat*-tattva is generated. Now we were a little confused about that. He said by the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency there is hiraṇmaya, hiraṇmaya is produced within mahat-tattva , and this hiraṇmaya is self-effulgent. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's effulgent. Prabhupāda: Hiraṇmaya ? Hari-śauri: Effulgent. Prabhupāda: Oh, effulgent, yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now our point is whether this hiraṇmaya . . . in the mahat*-tattva , the relationship between these two and pradhāna , how does that relate each other? It's not very clear in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . We're not very clear, this point. It said from pradhāna , by the impregnation with the Lord's internal potency, the hiraṇmaya is produced. That's actually the beginning of the injection of jīvas within these material modes. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is little complicated. So is it not clear from the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is little difficult to understand the phenomenal descriptions. *Prabhupāda: In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, nityānanda-tattva ? You can read it, you'll get some clue. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: We also get some clue from First Canto, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , in the puruṣa incarnations, where it explains about tattva . But there is a difference between . . . now our understanding is this: pradhāna , both pradhāna and mahat-tattva , they are eternal, though they are material manifestations. Prabhupāda: Everything eternal. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, eternal in the sense that it's different from prakṛti . Now prakṛti is, when it is completely manifested . . . Prabhupāda: Prakṛti, pradhāna, puruṣa, these things are little complicated. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we wanted to clarify this, because this is the nice thing that we can show that matter comes from life. This is the source. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sa īkṣata, sa asṛjata , by the glance of Mahā*-Viṣṇu . . . eko nārāyaṇa āsīt. In the beginning, Nārāyaṇa was there. There was no Lord Śiva, no neither Brahmā. This mantra was there. So originally, by the glance . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: By the glance of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: We can prove it that how by the sunshine everything is growing, how it is. Your molecule and so on, so on, you can describe. Actually, from the sunshine the trees are growing, leaves are coming. As soon as there is no sunshine, immediately they fall down, the leaves, and the tree becomes without any leaves. How this happens? The same process. The sunshine produces so many things. Similarly, by the glance of the Supreme, the material nature becomes agitated and the three guṇas become manifest. In this way these are described there. The same process. How from the sunshine the leaves are coming out, what are the molecular changes, if you can study the same process. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) . . . with this hiraṇmaya , the relationship between mahat*-tattva and the hiraṇmaya is clear, then I think at least we can have some idea. So we are little confused on this very point, that it is also said pradhāna is the twenty-four elements that doesn't contain time. Prabhupāda: Pradhāna is the ingredient. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is the sum total of the unmanifested material elements. Now from pradhāna actually mahat*-tattva is manifested. In mahat-tattva there is a basic difference that there is some . . . already some manifestations in mahat-tattva . Rūpānuga: Categories. *Prabhupāda: Total material elements, mahat*-tattva . Rūpānuga: Is that differentiated? *Prabhupāda: Mahat*-tattva is differentiated. Rūpānuga: Different categories? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, the time element is there in mahat*-tattva , so it is already twenty-five elements there including time. At this stage also, the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency means that the jīvas are already impregnated here from pradhāna . So here the living entities are in pure goodness. *Prabhupāda: The living entities are always in pure goodness. This material covering is separated. The living entities can be freed from material covering at any moment. Just like water and oil, it is always separated—it does not mix. The Vedic mantra also says, asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. Actually, it is not mixed, but it is covered. Such covering can be taken away at any moment simply by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate ( BG 14.26). I think in First Canto, that description you try to understand, you'll get. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now in the First Canto in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam also it is not very clear. *Prabhupāda: Then Second Canto, the development of sṛṣṭi*-tattva , there you'll get. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think there is also reference in the Bhagavad*-gītā , this Hiraṇmaya, because sometimes it's also called Brahman. Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti . What? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Brahman. *Prabhupāda: Brahman, yes. He's called Hiraṇya*-garbha, Brahmā. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hiraṇya*-garbha. It's also said in this state, pradhāna state, the cause and effect are not clearly manifested. *Prabhupāda: Caitanya caritāmṛta , did you refer nityānanda*-tattva ? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I haven't studied that yet. Prabhupāda: Read it, you'll get clue there. Maybe in the Third Chapter. Bring up here. We shall . . . first part, take it. *Rūpānuga: Ādi*-līlā ? Prabhupāda: First part, take it. Bṛṣākapi: Chapter Three? Prabhupāda: In Muslim country, Christians, or the Americans preaching Hindu religion, it has been taken very seriously in Iran. Three different elements: preaching center is Muhammadan, and the preacher an American, and the cult Hindu. (laughs) So the princess of Iran and her husband, they are, up to date, they are very much appreciating. The daughter of Shah. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, you read the Contents. Rūpānuga: Or the index maybe. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: No, the Summary. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Chapter Three. "In this chapter the author has fully discussed the reason for the descent of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, after displaying His pastimes as Lord Kṛṣṇa, thought it wise to make His advent in the form of a devotee to explain personally the transcendental mellow reciprocations of service and the love between Himself and His servants, friends, parents and fiancees. According to the Vedic literature, the foremost occupational duty for humanity in this age of Kali is nāma*-saṅkīrtana , or congregational chanting of the holy name of the Lord. The incarnation for this age especially preaches this process, but only Kṛṣṇa Himself can explain the confidential loving service performed in the four principal varieties of loving affairs between the Supreme Lord and His devotees. Lord Kṛṣṇa therefore personally appeared, with His plenary portions, as Lord Caitanya. As stated in this chapter, only for that purpose did Lord Kṛṣṇa appear personally in Navadvīpa in the form of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja has herein presented much authentic evidence from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and other scriptures to substantiate the identity of . . ." *Prabhupāda: You are reading Caitanya Mahāprabhu. About Nityānanda, see the Contents? No, in the beginning. Chapter where is Contents. Nityānanda*-tattva . *Rūpānuga: "The Glories of Lord Nityānanda*-Balarāma." Prabhupāda: Fifth Chapter? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. "This chapter is chiefly devoted to describing the essential nature and the glories of Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the Absolute Personality of Godhead, and His first expansion in a form for pastimes is Śrī Balarāma. Beyond the limitation of this material world is the spiritual sky, paravyoma , which has many spiritual planets, the supreme of which is called Kṛṣṇaloka. Kṛṣṇaloka, the abode of Kṛṣṇa, has three divisions, which are known as Dvārakā, Mathurā and Gokula. In that abode that Personality of Godhead expands Himself into four plenary portions—Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma, Pradyumna (the transcendental Cupid) and Aniruddha. They are known as the original quadruple forms. In Kṛṣṇaloka is a transcendental place known as Śvetadvīpa, or Vṛndāvana. Below Kṛṣṇaloka, in the spiritual sky, are the Vaikuṇṭha planets. On each Vaikuṇṭha planet a four*-handed Nārāyaṇa, expanded from the first quadruple manifestation, is present. The Personality of Godhead known as Śrī Balarāma in Kṛṣṇaloka is the original Saṅkarṣaṇa (attracting Deity), and from this Saṅkarṣaṇa expands another Saṅkarṣaṇa, called Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa, who resides in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. By His internal potency, Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa maintains the transcendental existence of all the planets in the spiritual sky, where all the living beings are eternally liberated souls. The influence of the material energy is conspicuous there by its absence. On those planets the second quadruple manifestation is present. Outside of the Vaikuṇṭha planets is the impersonal manifestation of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, which is known as the Brahmaloka. On the other side of the Brahmaloka is the spiritual kāraṇa-samudra , or Causal Ocean. The material energy exists on the other side of the Causal Ocean, without touching it. In the Causal Ocean is Mahā-Viṣṇu, the original puruṣa expansion from Saṅkarṣaṇa. This Mahā-Viṣṇu places His glance over the material energy, and by a reflection of His transcendental body He amalgamates Himself within the material elements. As the source of the material elements, the material energy is known as pradhāna , and as the source of the manifestations of the material energy it is known as māyā . But material nature is inert in that she has no independent power to do anything. She is empowered to make the cosmic manifestation by the glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Therefore the material energy is not the original cause of the material manifestation. Rather, the transcendental glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu over the material nature produces that cosmic manifestation." Prabhupāda: So you try to understand this, everything will be clear. Material energy has no power to create. It is this glance that makes material energy energetic. Chemical combination, that alkaline and acid, they create some agitation, effervescence, but it is done by the chemist. He mixes the two liquids, and there is effervescence. It is like that. So you read that chapter carefully, you'll solve your problem. (pause) *Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's said in the mahat*-tattva when the Lord glances or impregnates, that the glancing . . . Prabhupāda: That is spiritual. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it's still spiritual. *Prabhupāda: That glancing is spiritual. So matter itself cannot do anything. Aja*-jala-stana , it has been given. Aja-jala-stana , the nipples in the throat, neck. As there are some nipples, nipples useless, that is not milk-giving nipples. So nature is creating. They, generally, they say: "By nature," but nature has no power. It is matter. When there is glance of Saṅkarṣaṇa or Viṣṇu, that will do. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In that state, when a living entity's impregnated in this state, it is also said that it is in pure goodness. Prabhupāda: Pure goodness always. It is simply covered. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is not the completely manifested yet, but then it says by the contamination of pure goodness by ahaṅkāra , then starts material ego. From there, everything is going to manifest. So once we come to material ego then it seems clear. *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out, puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: "The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species." (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: How does the contaminated ego or contaminated consciousness differ from false ego? Prabhupāda: Hmm? That is contaminated ego, false ego. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we have a subdivision in the Third Canto for internal subtle senses. It is said mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness, and this ego is false ego, and another division is contaminated consciousness. Prabhupāda: This is false ego, "I am this matter. I am this body." This is false ego. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but why it is . . . Prabhupāda: Ego is there, but this is false ego. Rūpānuga: Then by association with the modes there is contaminated consciousness. Prabhupāda: This false ego develops. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: But still in this verse on Chapter Twenty*-six, verse fourteen, it says there are four internal subtle senses. Now these four senses are mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness. Devotee: Is that real ego, the soul? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But how can it be the senses? Rūpānuga: Here we are. "The internal subtle senses are experienced as having four aspects in the shape of mind, intelligence, ego and contaminated consciousness. Distinctions between them can be made only by different functions, since they represent different characteristics." Purport: "The four internal senses or subtle senses described herein are defined by different characteristics. When pure consciousness is polluted by material contamination, and identification with the body becomes predominant, this is called false ego. Consciousness is the function of the soul, and therefore behind consciousness there is soul. When consciousness is polluted by material contamination, this is called ahaṅkāra ." *Prabhupāda: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . The same thing. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-sthaḥ bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is this ego mentioned here, is it a false ego? That's what I understand. Prabhupāda: Not real. Real ego is "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Rūpānuga: Is there false ego in different modes? Like false ego in the mode of ignorance, false in the mode of passion or goodness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: So the consciousness can be contaminated according to the mode in which it's associating. *Prabhupāda: Yes, prakṛti*-jān guṇān. Rūpānuga: Yes. So I am identifying with my body in any mode, that is false ego. But my consciousness is contaminated by a particular mode—may be passion, may be ignorance, may be goodness. So then my consciousness is contaminated. So false ego is the base of all material activities, but I may be acting in a certain mode, contaminated in a certain way. Is that right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: That is what it means. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everything clear, these four internal subtle senses? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: What else you got? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, consciousness is a symptom of life, so when we say contaminated consciousness, the quality of life is there, but somehow that . . . Prabhupāda: That is mixed with material modes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Rūpānuga: Originally it is goodness. Very . . . pure goodness, you say. Originally in the beginning is . . . Prabhupāda: I give the example, just like water falling from the sky. It is crystal clear, distilled water. But as soon as touches the earth, it becomes muddy. But that muddiness can be filtered. Rūpānuga: Plus muddiness is the character of the mud, not the consciousness. And it can be cleansed, filtered out. Prabhupāda: Yes, that filtering process is devotional service. So unless the water is different from the precipitated matter, how it can be filtered? Svarūpa Dāmodara: So far we are concerned, prakṛti is clear, but the source of prakṛti is little, ah . . . so we'll try to . . . we want to show this, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our chapter on some sort of creation, creation of material manifestation. Prabhupāda: You'll get this from Second Canto. *Rūpānuga: Second Canto. That's that "First Step in Self*-Realization" chapter? Sadāpūta: Fifth chapter, sixth chapter—two chapters. Prabhupāda: Atra sargo visargaś ca (SB 2.10.1), that verse, Second Canto, you find out. Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is matter generated within a given body, like the body of a human being? While it's living, is matter generated and annihilated within that body during the time of life? Prabhupāda: Body is matter. Whole body is combination of matter. Sadāpūta: Right. But does the living entity within, or the Supersoul . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, within. Sadāpūta: Does it generate matter, so say the body could get heavier or lighter because of that? Prabhupāda: Because the living entity is there, matter is generated. Just like a tree, living entity is there, and big log, wood, is generated. Rūpānuga: Like that stone. That stone is increasing its weight, so when someone goes to see the stone he sees, ah, the stone is bigger and heavier also. So that increased material or matter that makes up the bigger size of the stone, is that matter being generated from the soul? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: From the spirit soul. So spirit soul has power . . . Prabhupāda: Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Rūpānuga: Ah! Prabhupāda: Similarly, from the spirit soul everything has come out. Rūpānuga: So spirit soul can create matter. Prabhupāda: Actually, from life matter is generated. Rūpānuga: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Not from matter life is generated. That is wrong. Sadāpūta: There are some people who have done measurements and . . . Prabhupāda: Measurement is there in the Vedic literature, Upaniṣad, Purāṇa . Rūpānuga: Is it that the living entity, when he creates this matter to expand, like the stone is growing, does he manufacture this material from the etheric platform, or does he . . . Prabhupāda: According to his desire he can. Rūpānuga: Simply by desiring. Prabhupāda: What is that one verse? Icchā dveṣaḥ samutthena sarge yānti . . . *Rūpānuga: There have been some . . . modern scientists have done some experiments showing that in the soil there are organisms, micro*-organisms and earthworms, that can produce chemicals, increasing just simply by their presence. Prabhupāda: Yes. I have given that example; already he has mentioned. Rūpānuga: Pasteur? Prabhupāda: No, no, this lemon. Rūpānuga: A lemon tree. Prabhupāda: A lemon tree is producing chemicals. Sadāpūta: Some people would say the lemon tree was simply taking food and rearranging it to produce the lemon juice. Prabhupāda: Yes. But the tree is the source, but everything is there in the earth. But God's creation is so nice that through the tree the chemical is coming. The chemical is there in the earth, but the seed of the lemon tree, when it grows, it extracts the particular type of chemical. Sadāpūta: We were wondering then if also it could produce matter, instead of taking from the earth and rearranging it. *Prabhupāda: No, earth is the source of everything. Sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī (SB 1.10.4), you get from . . . actually you are getting all chemicals from the earth. Rūpānuga: So they are already there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: Created by Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. The . . . (indistinct) . . . is there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's trying to mention an experiment in science. There's a man called . . . Prabhupāda: That is your duty, to mention . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: He tries to show that the living system . . . *Prabhupāda: No, if we can see practically different seeds are exacting different color, different flavor, different chemicals. Everything is coming from the earth, sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī . Everything is coming. Rūpānuga: So the plant . . . Prabhupāda: Simply outside arrangement, how to take it. Rūpānuga: So in other words, the tree or the plant in agriculture takes the chemicals from the soil and . . . Prabhupāda: The seed, as soon as come in touch with the earth, the seed exacts particular chemical and everything from there. This is the arrangement. Rūpānuga: So that spirit soul in the seed, he is not creating anything; he is taking. Prabhupāda: Spirit soul, according to his karma , takes shelter of the situation. But the seed, the chemical composition, exacts the desired. Rūpānuga: It's all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Can the seed do that without the spirit soul being present within the seed? Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Can the seed extract anything without the spirit soul being present there? *Prabhupāda: No. Seed is instrumental. Just like you have to do something, you require an instrument. Actually, according to the desires of the living entity, he's given instrument, bhrāmayan sarva*-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). Yantra . You require something, you require a particular yantra or machine. So seed is practically the machine, and the living entity is using it to satisfy his desires. Hari-śauri: So that growth of matter, that's the matter is coming from outside, and the spirit soul is simply taking it and expanding his body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sadāpūta: Is earth still being manifested from ether? Like the description in *Bhāgavatam* is from sound, and then through different elements finally down to earth. Is that still happening today? Prabhupāda: Every . . . always happening. Nature's law is going on. Sadāpūta: Yes. So what I was wondering, is like earth still being manifested in living bodies from sound and so on, like the chemists . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. The process is going on. I've described. That is going on. Rūpānuga: So the spirit soul is in the seed, and the seed interacts with the other chemicals to make growth. So if the chemicals are not there in the earth, then that seed cannot make those chemicals. Prabhupāda: No, chemical is there in the earth. According to the seed it is exacted. Just like a chemist will analyze or they separate the ingredient, so much this percentage, so much that percentage, so much that. Everything is there. Similarly, within the earth everything is there. The seed is the instrument and the living entity is the exactor—what is that? Exactor? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. He's executor. Rūpānuga: He takes, utilizes. *Prabhupāda: Utilizer. Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). Svarūpa Dāmodara: Extracts. Rūpānuga: Extracts from. Prabhupāda: Extracts. Rūpānuga: Suppose like now, just like this Vedic injunction against artificial fertilizers in the soil, suppose, as modern farmers are doing, they use this artificial fertilizer and the soil becomes depleted in certain minerals. Prabhupāda: That means artificial is the same principle. You are living entity; by artificial fertilizer you are exacting something from the earth, the same principle. Rūpānuga: Now suppose we take so many chemicals from the earth and they may become a little depleted. Can those chemicals be replaced by the earth itself as the ongoing process of nature? Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from the earth. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is . . . Sadāpūta has an interesting point in science itself, that somebody tried to show that in the living body, when the life is within matter, the, ah, it doesn't follow the conservation of matter. Science, one of the basic principles of science, is that . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. All the living conditions are there in the matter, provided there is the living being, that's all. Just like a dead body, it is not that the living condition is finished. No. The living conditions are there. That particular soul has left that body, but the dead body is also full of ingredients of living condition. So many germs are coming out when the body is decomposed. You say decomposition, but even in that decomposed condition there is living condition. So the living conditions are already there, matter in any form. So how these rascals say there is no life in the moon planet? That is not possible. The living conditions are always there in the matter. This is the example. Now, a decomposed body, the living being has left, now it is dead matter, but still, the living beings are coming out. How it is? That means matter has always the potency to give shelter to the living entity. So it is impossible that there is no living being in the moon planet. It is bogus. We cannot accept it. Any condition there is provision for the living beings. We see actually, in the earth, in the air, in the water, in the fire, these five elements. Whatever you take, these five elements in different proportions. So the living . . . just like from perspiration living entities come out. It is impossible there is no living entities. That is bogus complete. You can challenge like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The living entities that they are familiar with. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Kūpa*-māṇḍūkya-nyāya, again. They know some certain type of living entities, that's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they think that all the living entities would be like that. *Prabhupāda: That is their kūpa*-māṇḍūkya-nyāya , Dr. Frog. But the fact is, any condition of material existence, there is possibility of living entity there. Sarva-ga, sthāṇur, acalo'yaṁ sarva-ga. Everywhere there is living entity. It is impossible to conclude that on other planets there is no living entity. It is not possible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it possible to do some experiments? Prabhupāda: You experiment. You see a dead body. It is obnoxious smelling, but living entities coming. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, to show that matter is generated by life, we want to do some experiment. Prabhupāda: That is there. Every day we are experiencing, huh? Just the same seed, and a living entity comes and it becomes a tree and it grows, big tree, huge body. And as soon as it is dead, the body is not increasing. This is experiment. (break) Rūpānuga: You mean two things. You mean that . . . *Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from life. Kṛṣṇa says—He's the supreme life—He says, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva*-samanvitāḥ (BG 10.8). He's the origin of everything, both matter and life, everything. So matter also coming from life, life is also coming from life. Therefore life is the original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So janmādy asya yataḥ is life. That is explained in the Bhāgavata. Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ. That source of everything is life and is fully conscious of everything what is happening. Anvayāt , indirectly and directly, fully conscious. That is life. Rūpānuga: So that matter is coming from Kṛṣṇa originally. Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from Him. Rūpānuga: Then the spirit soul, he has his activities, and he's active and the matter . . . Prabhupāda: He may be inactive, but his subtle desires is active. That is creating. Matter is supplying, that is pradhāna of life. Rūpānuga: So he creates the situation for the matter, but he doesn't create the matter itself. Prabhupāda: Yes. He wants, "I want this," and God is there, He asks material energy to supply the ingredients, and he creates the different situation. (break) That's all. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you very much, Prabhupāda. (indistinct comments) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . bora bora phet, lanka dinga ke matta kare het It was translated by a Mr. Row, a professor in the Presidency College, he translated, "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." When the problems of life is read, then they are melancholy, all these big, big scientists. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Hanumān, one monkey, he jumped over the Ceylon. So other monkeys also, they were very much proud that a monkey jumped over the ocean. And as soon as he was challenged, "Can you jump over?" melancholy. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Big, big monkey, big, big belly. These are the translation by Mr. Row, a professor of English in Presidency College. So what is the proposal now? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We want to discuss about the journal that we are proposing to have from the Institute. *Rūpānuga: So Ravīndra*-svarūpa Prabhu is going to be the editor, you approved in Māyāpur. We were thinking if you could give us some idea for a title. Because we were thinking so far that we would have a subtitle, like we have "Back to Godhead" then we have "the Magazine of the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement." So we would have the subtitle, "Bhaktivedanta Institute" or "Journal of the Bhaktivedanta Institute," but maybe you would like to have a title of the journal. So we wanted to know if you had some hint. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You can title, entitle, Sa*-vijñāna . *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sa*-vijñāna ? Devotees: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Jñānaṁ me paramaṁ guhyaṁ yad vijñāna*-samanvitam. What is that Bhagavad-gītā verse? Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ pravakṣyāmi tad vijñānam . . . Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Seventh Chapter. Rūpānuga: That is good, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That is a very nice title. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What about a subtitle? Pradyumna: "I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge, both phenomenal and noumenal, by knowing which there shall remain nothing further to be known." Prabhupāda: Yes. Nothing further to be known. *Pradyumna: Sa*-vijñānam *Rūpānuga: Sa*-vijñānam . So we can say " Sa-vijñānam , Journal of the Bhaktivedanta Institute." Is that all right? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sa*-vijñānam. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Do we need some sort of translation maybe? Devotee: On the inside cover we can have this verse . . . Prabhupāda: You can give this verse. Devotee: Give the verse on the inside. That can be the motto. Prabhupāda: Is that nice title? Pradyumna: Scientific. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, sound very . . . Rūpānuga: It's a very good title. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in this journal we can publish from different disciplines of knowledge, from any branch of knowledge and principle. Devotee: Science, philosophy, economics, sociology. For the scholarly, academic community. *Prabhupāda: Yes, socially you can preach how this cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), how it is scientific. In the society, if there is . . . actually we have. Just like why these, maybe so-called scientists, but why the scientists are given so much importance? Because there is a brain. So if you make everyone equal, all śūdras , then who will be the brain? The brain is required. That is brāhmaṇa . So this, not this brain; *this brain is śūdra brain for everyone. But when the . . . but just like here is Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, or you are here. So you are not scientist from the very birth. You have been trained up how to become a scientist. Similarly, the birth is there. Whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. But you have to be trained up how to become first*-class brain. That is brāhmaṇa . You have to become truthful, you have to become controller of the senses, you have to become fully aware of things, of God, everything, full knowledge, then you become brain. People give scientists so much importance because there is brain. Brain, in the society, there must be brain. So without brain, how the society can go on? If you simply produce motor mechanic, then? *Brain must be there. Just like this is brain: Sanātana Gosvāmī is asking, ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa*-traya . This is brain. "I don't want some uncomfortable situation, but why it is enforced?" So when you make research into that, that is brain. And if we remain like animal, "All right, they are dragging me to the slaughterhouse, that's all right, let me go," that is not brain. Brain means that I am seeking after perfect happiness; *why I am not allowed to have this perfect happiness? That is brain. The question, if there is any remedy. They are doing this. Scientific brain means there are so many problems, they are trying to solve it. That requires brain. But because they are fool scientists, they do not know how to make a solution of the ultimate problem. They are making tiny problems, that's all. There is power shortage: all right, let us invent some substitute of petroleum. Brain is being taxed. Again it is finished, again another. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). But they are so dull brain, they do not raise the question that we are making solution of one problem, another problem is ready. That brain they have not. So how long we shall go on solving the problems, another problem, another problem? Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). He does not know that nature will not allow me to live peacefully. So we bring problems after problems. That is material life. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī . Everything is there. You discuss only Bhagavad-gītā , you'll get so many subject matter to think and write. This is brain. We are solving one problem; another problem is there. So why this is happening? If there is any situation without any problem? That is brain. Rūpānuga: We had another practical consideration. We were thinking that could BBT publish the journal? BBT would publish the journal? Prabhupāda: But whether you'll be able to publish regularly. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Quarterly, at the beginning. Rūpānuga: Four times a year. Every three months. *Prabhupāda: Because it must be very . . . sa*-vijñānam, it must be very scientific. Rūpānuga: Oh, yes. Without defect. Prabhupāda: That's all right, BBT will publish. Why not? Rūpānuga: We can provide the copying work and all the graphs and things, and then they would lay it out and do everything, like with your books. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just like other things. And it will be BBT property. That's all. Rūpānuga: Your property. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can also do it for the books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't it? It will be published by BBT, but coming out from Bhaktivedanta Institute. Devotee: That will be good for the Institute if the name is on that book. Prabhupāda: That's all right. From Bhaktivedanta publisher. Yes, that's all right. You can do something like that, there is no harm. But this world is a problem, but we want solution of the problem but we do not know how to solve it. Is it not? Do the scientists know? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are trying. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Not a single problem they have solved. Can you cite that this big problem they have solved? Rūpānuga: In fact you have said that they are creating a new problem each time. Prabhupāda: That is the nature. You cannot solve the problem. You will create problem. If you don't live natural life, then you will create problem. Just like the other than . . . creatures, other than human beings, they have no problem, because they are living naturally. So our human beings should also live natural life. Then his only problem is this birth, death, old age, and . . . that he will be able to solve. That is the difference. The birds and beasts, they are living natural life, but they have no capacity to solve the problem. They are living a natural life. But the human being has the capacity to solve the problem. Real problem is birth, death, old age and disease. But they do not touch the real problem. Hmm? They avoid it because they cannot solve it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They keep it for the future. They postpone. Prabhupāda: That is postdated check. "You take this million dollar check." "When shall I use it?" "After millions year you can cash it." This kind of propaganda no sane man will accept. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's like chemical evolution. Million years it will happen. Prabhupāda: Billion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, in a million years. *Prabhupāda: Then the answer is the chicken is better than you. He can give you life within seven days. Dr. Chicken is better. They are shameless. Not ordinary, because ordinary human being will become shameful to speak something nonsense. But they are shameless. In that Bengali, duḥkhānkata . One man, one ear was cut off. So in order to hide his cut*-off ear he was keeping this side to the river side and this side to the habitation side and then again his two ears were cut out. Then there is no question of hiding. Both of them were cut out. So these people are duḥkhānkata . When both the ears cut out, there is no shame. They will go on talking all nonsense. Because they accept, they are accepted. So many millions of years have passed in the history, nobody could do that, and they are giving hope that life will come after millions of years. Why million? Here is a chicken, he can give life within five days. What credit you'll get after millions of years? But they are duḥkhānkata , so shameless they can speak such nonsense and still pass on as scientists. Tibocham , I think. Duḥkhānkata . No shame. You do not feel that why you are talking nonsense. Am I right or wrong? Here is a chicken, insignificant animal, he is giving life within five days, and we are talking of millions of years, and still we are scientist, Dr. Frog. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are going to use that example in our preaching. Prabhupāda: And the thing is that these person, they are holding the . . . andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). A blind man, he has no eyes, and still, he's leader of other blind men. Is it possible? A blind man, he is blind man, he has no knowledge, and still, he's leading other blind men. This is a very dangerous position. He has no actually knowledge, simply speculating, putting theories and formulas, and they are leaders of the society. Rūpānuga: We have to stop this. Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise people are misled. It is not the duty of education to mislead people. The real knowledge should be given. They should know that. To become a great misleader and take some title, that is not good. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The other morning you were . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda was mentioning about the Institute, the Bhaktivedanta Institute. So is there anything else that Your Divine Grace wants to . . .? Prabhupāda: Institute, you have got sufficient subject matter as I was describing, this original source of life and the planetary system, as you are going to make planetarium. Who can say about so many planets in the sky? Who has got sufficient knowledge? They cannot even give . . . they think that moon is the nearest planet, but we do not think like that. But still they are unable to give sufficient knowledge about the moon. It is not vacant. It cannot be vacant. We don't find any part of the world vacant. There is living entities. This earth planet is part of the universe, and the moon is also part of the universe. If it is not vacant, how that can be vacant? You have got dust there, here we have got dust—you have got rocks there, here we have got rocks. And why it is vacant? We find in the dust also there is life. When we walk on the beach, it is simply sand, there are so many crabs. They are immediately flying, running, "Oh, here is a man coming. Enter into the hole." So even the dust, in the sand, there is life. So why not there? In the water there is life, within the sand there is life, in the air there is life—everywhere there is life. Why it should be vacant? Hmm? What is the opinion of the scientists? How . . .? We are layman, talking like layman, but why there should not be life? And in the śāstra we get there is life. Not only moon; *every planet is full of living entities. Jagat*-kīrṇa . There is human being, there is animal, everything. How it can be vacant, God's creation? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they cannot see, so . . . Prabhupāda: See . . . you cannot see your father; that does not means there is no father who begot you. That is no . . . they cannot see . . . do they say like that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They cannot see that, so they cannot prove by experiment, so . . . Prabhupāda: What experiment? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just from experience also. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: They go and look, and that's all they can do. They want to go and see for themselves, so they say they have gone to the moon planet, and they say: "We have not found life." Prabhupāda: We say you have not gone. I have not seen you, that you have gone there; you say only. How can I believe? Vipina: They show you pictures, and it was on the TV. Prabhupāda: That is also, you have made picture. I have not gone and seen that. How can I believe you? The same argument. You say that you have gone to moon planet, but I have not seen that you have gone there. How can I believe you? Vipina: Is there some other way we can argue with them, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, no, that's . . . answer this question, that you say you have not seen. I say yes, that's all right, because you did not see, therefore you don't believe. But I did not see you also that you have gone to moon planet. How can I believe you? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: How is it possible to deceive so many people? Prabhupāda: Whether it is not possible or possible, but if you put this argument, that I have not seen, that I can say that I have . . . (end) Prabhupāda: . . . bora bora phet, lanka dinga ke matta kare het It was translated by a Mr. Row, a professor in the Presidency College, he translated, "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." When the problems of life is read, then they are melancholy, all these big, big scientists. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Hanumān, one monkey, he jumped over the Ceylon. So other monkeys also, they were very much proud that a monkey jumped over the ocean. And as soon as he was challenged, "Can you jump over?" melancholy. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Big, big monkey, big, big belly. These are the translation by Mr. Row, a professor of English in Presidency College. So what is the proposal now? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We want to discuss about the journal that we are proposing to have from the Institute. *Rūpānuga: So Ravīndra*-svarūpa Prabhu is going to be the editor, you approved in Māyāpur. We were thinking if you could give us some idea for a title. Because we were thinking so far that we would have a subtitle, like we have "Back to Godhead" then we have "the Magazine of the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement." So we would have the subtitle, "Bhaktivedanta Institute" or "Journal of the Bhaktivedanta Institute," but maybe you would like to have a title of the journal. So we wanted to know if you had some hint. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You can title, entitle, Sa*-vijñāna . *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sa*-vijñāna ? Devotees: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Jñānaṁ me paramaṁ guhyaṁ yad vijñāna*-samanvitam. What is that Bhagavad-gītā verse? Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ pravakṣyāmi tad vijñānam . . . Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Seventh Chapter. Rūpānuga: That is good, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That is a very nice title. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What about a subtitle? Pradyumna: "I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge, both phenomenal and noumenal, by knowing which there shall remain nothing further to be known." Prabhupāda: Yes. Nothing further to be known. *Pradyumna: Sa*-vijñānam *Rūpānuga: Sa*-vijñānam . So we can say " Sa-vijñānam , Journal of the Bhaktivedanta Institute." Is that all right? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sa*-vijñānam. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Do we need some sort of translation maybe? Devotee: On the inside cover we can have this verse . . . Prabhupāda: You can give this verse. Devotee: Give the verse on the inside. That can be the motto. Prabhupāda: Is that nice title? Pradyumna: Scientific. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, sound very . . . Rūpānuga: It's a very good title. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in this journal we can publish from different disciplines of knowledge, from any branch of knowledge and principle. Devotee: Science, philosophy, economics, sociology. For the scholarly, academic community. *Prabhupāda: Yes, socially you can preach how this cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), how it is scientific. In the society, if there is . . . actually we have. Just like why these, maybe so-called scientists, but why the scientists are given so much importance? Because there is a brain. So if you make everyone equal, all śūdras , then who will be the brain? The brain is required. That is brāhmaṇa . So this, not this brain; *this brain is śūdra brain for everyone. But when the . . . but just like here is Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, or you are here. So you are not scientist from the very birth. You have been trained up how to become a scientist. Similarly, the birth is there. Whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. But you have to be trained up how to become first*-class brain. That is brāhmaṇa . You have to become truthful, you have to become controller of the senses, you have to become fully aware of things, of God, everything, full knowledge, then you become brain. People give scientists so much importance because there is brain. Brain, in the society, there must be brain. So without brain, how the society can go on? If you simply produce motor mechanic, then? *Brain must be there. Just like this is brain: Sanātana Gosvāmī is asking, ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa*-traya . This is brain. "I don't want some uncomfortable situation, but why it is enforced?" So when you make research into that, that is brain. And if we remain like animal, "All right, they are dragging me to the slaughterhouse, that's all right, let me go," that is not brain. Brain means that I am seeking after perfect happiness; *why I am not allowed to have this perfect happiness? That is brain. The question, if there is any remedy. They are doing this. Scientific brain means there are so many problems, they are trying to solve it. That requires brain. But because they are fool scientists, they do not know how to make a solution of the ultimate problem. They are making tiny problems, that's all. There is power shortage: all right, let us invent some substitute of petroleum. Brain is being taxed. Again it is finished, again another. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). But they are so dull brain, they do not raise the question that we are making solution of one problem, another problem is ready. That brain they have not. So how long we shall go on solving the problems, another problem, another problem? Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). He does not know that nature will not allow me to live peacefully. So we bring problems after problems. That is material life. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī . Everything is there. You discuss only Bhagavad-gītā , you'll get so many subject matter to think and write. This is brain. We are solving one problem; another problem is there. So why this is happening? If there is any situation without any problem? That is brain. Rūpānuga: We had another practical consideration. We were thinking that could BBT publish the journal? BBT would publish the journal? Prabhupāda: But whether you'll be able to publish regularly. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Quarterly, at the beginning. Rūpānuga: Four times a year. Every three months. *Prabhupāda: Because it must be very . . . sa*-vijñānam, it must be very scientific. Rūpānuga: Oh, yes. Without defect. Prabhupāda: That's all right, BBT will publish. Why not? Rūpānuga: We can provide the copying work and all the graphs and things, and then they would lay it out and do everything, like with your books. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just like other things. And it will be BBT property. That's all. Rūpānuga: Your property. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can also do it for the books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't it? It will be published by BBT, but coming out from Bhaktivedanta Institute. Devotee: That will be good for the Institute if the name is on that book. Prabhupāda: That's all right. From Bhaktivedanta publisher. Yes, that's all right. You can do something like that, there is no harm. But this world is a problem, but we want solution of the problem but we do not know how to solve it. Is it not? Do the scientists know? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are trying. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Not a single problem they have solved. Can you cite that this big problem they have solved? Rūpānuga: In fact you have said that they are creating a new problem each time. Prabhupāda: That is the nature. You cannot solve the problem. You will create problem. If you don't live natural life, then you will create problem. Just like the other than . . . creatures, other than human beings, they have no problem, because they are living naturally. So our human beings should also live natural life. Then his only problem is this birth, death, old age, and . . . that he will be able to solve. That is the difference. The birds and beasts, they are living natural life, but they have no capacity to solve the problem. They are living a natural life. But the human being has the capacity to solve the problem. Real problem is birth, death, old age and disease. But they do not touch the real problem. Hmm? They avoid it because they cannot solve it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They keep it for the future. They postpone. Prabhupāda: That is postdated check. "You take this million dollar check." "When shall I use it?" "After millions year you can cash it." This kind of propaganda no sane man will accept. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's like chemical evolution. Million years it will happen. Prabhupāda: Billion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, in a million years. *Prabhupāda: Then the answer is the chicken is better than you. He can give you life within seven days. Dr. Chicken is better. They are shameless. Not ordinary, because ordinary human being will become shameful to speak something nonsense. But they are shameless. In that Bengali, duḥkhānkata . One man, one ear was cut off. So in order to hide his cut*-off ear he was keeping this side to the river side and this side to the habitation side and then again his two ears were cut out. Then there is no question of hiding. Both of them were cut out. So these people are duḥkhānkata . When both the ears cut out, there is no shame. They will go on talking all nonsense. Because they accept, they are accepted. So many millions of years have passed in the history, nobody could do that, and they are giving hope that life will come after millions of years. Why million? Here is a chicken, he can give life within five days. What credit you'll get after millions of years? But they are duḥkhānkata , so shameless they can speak such nonsense and still pass on as scientists. Tibocham , I think. Duḥkhānkata . No shame. You do not feel that why you are talking nonsense. Am I right or wrong? Here is a chicken, insignificant animal, he is giving life within five days, and we are talking of millions of years, and still we are scientist, Dr. Frog. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are going to use that example in our preaching. Prabhupāda: And the thing is that these person, they are holding the . . . andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). A blind man, he has no eyes, and still, he's leader of other blind men. Is it possible? A blind man, he is blind man, he has no knowledge, and still, he's leading other blind men. This is a very dangerous position. He has no actually knowledge, simply speculating, putting theories and formulas, and they are leaders of the society. Rūpānuga: We have to stop this. Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise people are misled. It is not the duty of education to mislead people. The real knowledge should be given. They should know that. To become a great misleader and take some title, that is not good. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The other morning you were . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda was mentioning about the Institute, the Bhaktivedanta Institute. So is there anything else that Your Divine Grace wants to . . .? Prabhupāda: Institute, you have got sufficient subject matter as I was describing, this original source of life and the planetary system, as you are going to make planetarium. Who can say about so many planets in the sky? Who has got sufficient knowledge? They cannot even give . . . they think that moon is the nearest planet, but we do not think like that. But still they are unable to give sufficient knowledge about the moon. It is not vacant. It cannot be vacant. We don't find any part of the world vacant. There is living entities. This earth planet is part of the universe, and the moon is also part of the universe. If it is not vacant, how that can be vacant? You have got dust there, here we have got dust—you have got rocks there, here we have got rocks. And why it is vacant? We find in the dust also there is life. When we walk on the beach, it is simply sand, there are so many crabs. They are immediately flying, running, "Oh, here is a man coming. Enter into the hole." So even the dust, in the sand, there is life. So why not there? In the water there is life, within the sand there is life, in the air there is life—everywhere there is life. Why it should be vacant? Hmm? What is the opinion of the scientists? How . . .? We are layman, talking like layman, but why there should not be life? And in the śāstra we get there is life. Not only moon; *every planet is full of living entities. Jagat*-kīrṇa . There is human being, there is animal, everything. How it can be vacant, God's creation? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they cannot see, so . . . Prabhupāda: See . . . you cannot see your father; that does not means there is no father who begot you. That is no . . . they cannot see . . . do they say like that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They cannot see that, so they cannot prove by experiment, so . . . Prabhupāda: What experiment? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just from experience also. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: They go and look, and that's all they can do. They want to go and see for themselves, so they say they have gone to the moon planet, and they say: "We have not found life." Prabhupāda: We say you have not gone. I have not seen you, that you have gone there; you say only. How can I believe? Vipina: They show you pictures, and it was on the TV. Prabhupāda: That is also, you have made picture. I have not gone and seen that. How can I believe you? The same argument. You say that you have gone to moon planet, but I have not seen that you have gone there. How can I believe you? Vipina: Is there some other way we can argue with them, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, no, that's . . . answer this question, that you say you have not seen. I say yes, that's all right, because you did not see, therefore you don't believe. But I did not see you also that you have gone to moon planet. How can I believe you? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: How is it possible to deceive so many people? Prabhupāda: Whether it is not possible or possible, but if you put this argument, that I have not seen, that I can say that I have . . . (end) (Conversation with Dr. Sharma) Prabhupāda: Give little, a small pot. Hari-śauri: Some prasādam ? Dr. Sharma: Prabhupāda, you have given such beautiful temples, so many devotees, now to have a point of jump so that all India and all the world and other people can join in this. Your answers today were very penetrating. That can help a lot, saying that people can work outside but still be devotees, and if they can chant, if they can devote work, and if they can submit all the fruits of their action, if this can be somehow made available, this particular . . . Prabhupāda: It is available. Dr. Sharma: Yes, but these few questions only, the answers, that these are from you and these are there, then it will be a point of jump in the movement. It will be a big jump in the movement. And what can we do . . .? Prabhupāda: So come and join us and help us. Dr. Sharma: I would be most honored to do it, and I am trying from the outside. Prabhupāda: No, you are in Washington? Dr. Sharma: Yes, I am in Washington. Prabhupāda: So organize here. Dr. Sharma: I certainly will be. Prabhupāda: Talk with the scientists and everyone here. Dr. Sharma: I come two or three times a week for the temple, and I will be coming more. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: Your idea of the Institute is possibly the most magnificent idea, because that will bring all the scientists . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, actually it is. At least those who are Indians, let them join. It is Indian culture. *Dr. Sharma: Yes, it is such a wonderful thing. I was a hard*-core Vedāntist before I came, and I was not satisfied. I feel that by chanting one really changes. Yes, one changes. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Sharma: I bring all the Indian people I can, because I know, I am a scientist, I still believe in God. Prabhupāda: What is your subject matter? Dr. Sharma: I have four doctorates in four different areas. Prabhupāda: Oh? Dr. Sharma: I have a Ph.D. in chemistry, a Ph.D. in biochemistry, a Doctor of Science in clinical endocrinology. I have a Fellow of the Royal Institute of Chemistry of London, which is a higher Ph.D. I am in computer information and control engineering . . . Prabhupāda: Royal College of . . . that . . . what is is called? Dr. Sharma: Royal Institute of Chemistry, London. And I have a law degree. And I am in computer information and control engineering. Prabhupāda: (laughing) You are such a big man. Kindly join us and help us. Dr. Sharma: I would be most honored, and I'm slowly trying to work it out in such a way that I can . . . *Prabhupāda: No, the formula is all given in this Bhagavad*-gītā . *Dr. Sharma: I find your Bhagavad*-gītā most illuminating as compared to other Gītās I have read, the translations. *Prabhupāda: We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, that's all. Dr. Sharma: How can we best serve the movement? By joining it? I have joined it in a . . . Prabhupāda: Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā ( SB 10.22.35): "By life, by money, by intelligence, by words." Either four or three or two—at least one. Then it will be all right. Dr. Sharma: I'll be writing . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: . . . about the movement in scientific journals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: That I'll be writing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: And I'll be writing . . . Prabhupāda: That is dhiyā . Dr. Sharma: And I'll be writing . . . Prabhupāda: Vācaiḥ . Dr. Sharma: I'll also be writing, in scientific way, books about it. Prabhupāda: You write in our . . . we are going to publish one magazine. Dr. Sharma: 'Cause I think the movement is very scientific. Prabhupāda: Yes. (rings bell) (aside) So, call Svarūpa Dāmodara. Dr. Sharma: I shall write in books and give it to the editors here to use it the way they best can. I'll write it . . . I normally publish . . . I only last month got a medical prize, a large prize, for medicine. My name is known internationally, medical journals. So I'll submit it to the Book Trust and let them publish it. Prabhupāda: So, you are qualified medical man? Dr. Sharma: No, I am only in research. I am not qualified to practice medicine, but in clinical medical practice and clinical journals I am qualified. I used to be a full professor. Prabhupāda: From chemical point. Dr. Sharma: No, from medicine point of view. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Dr. Sharma: From medicine point. In physics and mathematics I'll write in those ways, and I'll submit it and let them use it the way they feel like it. Previously I was with the āśrama , and I was . . . Prabhupāda: Which āśrama ? Dr. Sharma: Kohasat. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Dr. Sharma: And before that with the Swami Rama Tirtha Mission in New York. I was a follower of Vivekananda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Sharma: And at the Belur Math in Belur Math Dakshineswar in Calcutta. But I find that by really chanting . . . I was crying to God, literally, at night, that "Find me the path again," and then I found your movement. And I find it, yes, it does make a difference. I was also amazed that evening when the first two days ago I was thinking I will ask you five ślokas of *Gītā* to give me. Out of that, you discussed four. And I was meditating on Haridwar, where I was born. All the time your face was appearing behind Ganges, and it was very strange phenomena. I do not know when I will be fortunate enough to have your darśana again, but in the meantime, I'm slowly . . . I feel that this movement you have done supernatural thing. Now, somehow . . . Prabhupāda: That's a great certificate, because it is coming from you. Dr. Sharma: It's a supernatural thing. I do not believe that it is natural. It is in the world again to be done. I have been here . . . to be able to convert these people, to be able to make devotees, is unusual. Prabhupāda: (aside) Where is Svarūpa Dāmodara? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That indemnity bond? I think I can pack it away until New York City. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I could take care of that and pack it away until we get to New York. Prabhupāda: Who will pack it? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think I put it on your desk in there. Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indemnity bond. But the letter has to be written also. Dr. Sharma: Today's discussion was possibly the most magnificent, and very clearly given, about people can be in work as well as . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Sharma: . . . devotees. This, today's discussion, if that is available in some publication form, just that much, then I shall be most happy to distribute it among all the Indians. Prabhupāda: Yes, do it. Dr. Sharma: I will do that among all the . . . *Prabhupāda: Sthāne sthitāḥ . . . that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's recommendation. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). You remain your place, but engage your body, tanu; vāk , your words; *and mind. Tanu*-vāṅ-manobhiḥ . Engage all these things for Kṛṣṇa. So tanu means senses. You hear about Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa. Then vān , automatically, words, and mind also. If you hear of Kṛṣṇa, you'll think of Him. In this way there is no need of changing the place. Sthāne sthitāḥ. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi : "My Lord, You are Ajita; *nobody can conquer You. But this person who has engaged his body, mind and words for Your service, he can conquer You." Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. This was spoken by Lord Brahmā, that is . . . there is no question of changing the position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never says so, neither śāstras . But in a regulative way there are steps: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. But on the transcendental platform these things are useless. Simply engage in the service of the Lord. That is mukti . Dr. Sharma: I am thinking that when the Institute is formed, I shall perform all the services, whatever are needed to help. Prabhupāda: Kindly do that. Dr. Sharma: I'll be doing that. I'll be writing now, and . . . Prabhupāda: Your family is also here? Dr. Sharma: Yes, I will be married very soon, in about a month. Hari-śauri: They said Svarūpa Dāmodara went down to the prasādam pavilion, so we sent someone down to find him. Prabhupāda: Oh. Good. Now here is . . . (Svarūpa Dāmodara enters) All right. Dr. Sharma: Yes, we think that you have done supernatural things. We can do at least just a little bit, just a little bit. Prabhupāda: Finishing touch. Dr. Sharma: Well, no, just a little bit. We may not be able to finish it, but we will be able to . . . Prabhupāda: No, the student does roughly, and the master gives the finishing touch, painting. Dr. Sharma: You are very kind. But we will try. It is supernatural. To me it is . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Now here is Dr. Sharma. He is Ph.D. in four subject matters, and besides that he is a lawyer, so he's very highly qualified man, and he wants to give his all aid so that . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we need his help. Prabhupāda: Yes. And he is convinced about our bonafideness of this movement. So by his example many other qualified Indians . . . and it is the business of the Indian. It is Indian culture. They are accepting. Present them most scientifically, and it will be a glory of India. Dr. Sharma: It is up to us to bring Kṛṣṇa's words now . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dr. Sharma: . . . to the world. He wanted us to do it. Prabhupāda: Yes, kindly do that. So you talk with him in detail how to. If you . . . whether our, this branch will be situated. They say here it is good? Svarūpa Dāmodara: For Institute? Yes. I am also going to Boston to see the facilities there. Prabhupāda: But he can write. He give you. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes, he can furnish it in so many ways, and we are going to need Sharma's help, because he's in the government agency in the scientific field, so . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. If he wants to help us, he can help us in so many ways. Dr. Sharma: Yes, I'll be very much honored to help. Prabhupāda: And he's convinced. He's not an ordinary person. He's convinced. So let us take his help and . . . Dr. Sharma: I'll see what the government and the foundations . . . I can go to the foundation to help it. Once the Institute is formed, I can go to the foundations to get the money from them both to support the movement, for the Institute, for education. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dr. Sharma: Once we get started on that . . . you must be very tired now. You have a . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Today is Ekādaśī also. Dr. Sharma: I do not know when I will be fortunate to have your darśana again, but I certainly think God will be again give me the blessing to have your darśana . India is fortunate to have . . . Prabhupāda: We shall see every moment, every day with our work. If the work is going on, then I see you, you see me. (laughs) Dr. Sharma: And I think that Vivekananda came here before. He brought some things. After that, it was nothing was brought out. The only thing which has been brought out which is genuine, which is really in the benefit of Indian . . . Prabhupāda: Indian culture, it is really a fact. Dr. Sharma: These are the only two things which I have seen. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you very much. Jaya . Take this. Dr. Sharma: I will remember you always out of seeing you in this. Prabhupāda: Your full name? Dr. Sharma: Dinesh. Prabhupāda: Very nice name. Dr. Sharma: Dinesh Sharma. Prabhupāda: Dīna bandhu, dīneśa . (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. All right. Dr. Sharma: God's kindness has brought me to your feet. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (Conversation with Dr. Sharma) Prabhupāda: Give little, a small pot. Hari-śauri: Some prasādam ? Dr. Sharma: Prabhupāda, you have given such beautiful temples, so many devotees, now to have a point of jump so that all India and all the world and other people can join in this. Your answers today were very penetrating. That can help a lot, saying that people can work outside but still be devotees, and if they can chant, if they can devote work, and if they can submit all the fruits of their action, if this can be somehow made available, this particular . . . Prabhupāda: It is available. Dr. Sharma: Yes, but these few questions only, the answers, that these are from you and these are there, then it will be a point of jump in the movement. It will be a big jump in the movement. And what can we do . . .? Prabhupāda: So come and join us and help us. Dr. Sharma: I would be most honored to do it, and I am trying from the outside. Prabhupāda: No, you are in Washington? Dr. Sharma: Yes, I am in Washington. Prabhupāda: So organize here. Dr. Sharma: I certainly will be. Prabhupāda: Talk with the scientists and everyone here. Dr. Sharma: I come two or three times a week for the temple, and I will be coming more. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: Your idea of the Institute is possibly the most magnificent idea, because that will bring all the scientists . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, actually it is. At least those who are Indians, let them join. It is Indian culture. *Dr. Sharma: Yes, it is such a wonderful thing. I was a hard*-core Vedāntist before I came, and I was not satisfied. I feel that by chanting one really changes. Yes, one changes. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Sharma: I bring all the Indian people I can, because I know, I am a scientist, I still believe in God. Prabhupāda: What is your subject matter? Dr. Sharma: I have four doctorates in four different areas. Prabhupāda: Oh? Dr. Sharma: I have a Ph.D. in chemistry, a Ph.D. in biochemistry, a Doctor of Science in clinical endocrinology. I have a Fellow of the Royal Institute of Chemistry of London, which is a higher Ph.D. I am in computer information and control engineering . . . Prabhupāda: Royal College of . . . that . . . what is is called? Dr. Sharma: Royal Institute of Chemistry, London. And I have a law degree. And I am in computer information and control engineering. Prabhupāda: (laughing) You are such a big man. Kindly join us and help us. Dr. Sharma: I would be most honored, and I'm slowly trying to work it out in such a way that I can . . . *Prabhupāda: No, the formula is all given in this Bhagavad*-gītā . *Dr. Sharma: I find your Bhagavad*-gītā most illuminating as compared to other Gītās I have read, the translations. *Prabhupāda: We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, that's all. Dr. Sharma: How can we best serve the movement? By joining it? I have joined it in a . . . Prabhupāda: Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā ( SB 10.22.35): "By life, by money, by intelligence, by words." Either four or three or two—at least one. Then it will be all right. Dr. Sharma: I'll be writing . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: . . . about the movement in scientific journals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: That I'll be writing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: And I'll be writing . . . Prabhupāda: That is dhiyā . Dr. Sharma: And I'll be writing . . . Prabhupāda: Vācaiḥ . Dr. Sharma: I'll also be writing, in scientific way, books about it. Prabhupāda: You write in our . . . we are going to publish one magazine. Dr. Sharma: 'Cause I think the movement is very scientific. Prabhupāda: Yes. (rings bell) (aside) So, call Svarūpa Dāmodara. Dr. Sharma: I shall write in books and give it to the editors here to use it the way they best can. I'll write it . . . I normally publish . . . I only last month got a medical prize, a large prize, for medicine. My name is known internationally, medical journals. So I'll submit it to the Book Trust and let them publish it. Prabhupāda: So, you are qualified medical man? Dr. Sharma: No, I am only in research. I am not qualified to practice medicine, but in clinical medical practice and clinical journals I am qualified. I used to be a full professor. Prabhupāda: From chemical point. Dr. Sharma: No, from medicine point of view. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Dr. Sharma: From medicine point. In physics and mathematics I'll write in those ways, and I'll submit it and let them use it the way they feel like it. Previously I was with the āśrama , and I was . . . Prabhupāda: Which āśrama ? Dr. Sharma: Kohasat. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Dr. Sharma: And before that with the Swami Rama Tirtha Mission in New York. I was a follower of Vivekananda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Sharma: And at the Belur Math in Belur Math Dakshineswar in Calcutta. But I find that by really chanting . . . I was crying to God, literally, at night, that "Find me the path again," and then I found your movement. And I find it, yes, it does make a difference. I was also amazed that evening when the first two days ago I was thinking I will ask you five ślokas of *Gītā* to give me. Out of that, you discussed four. And I was meditating on Haridwar, where I was born. All the time your face was appearing behind Ganges, and it was very strange phenomena. I do not know when I will be fortunate enough to have your darśana again, but in the meantime, I'm slowly . . . I feel that this movement you have done supernatural thing. Now, somehow . . . Prabhupāda: That's a great certificate, because it is coming from you. Dr. Sharma: It's a supernatural thing. I do not believe that it is natural. It is in the world again to be done. I have been here . . . to be able to convert these people, to be able to make devotees, is unusual. Prabhupāda: (aside) Where is Svarūpa Dāmodara? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That indemnity bond? I think I can pack it away until New York City. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I could take care of that and pack it away until we get to New York. Prabhupāda: Who will pack it? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think I put it on your desk in there. Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indemnity bond. But the letter has to be written also. Dr. Sharma: Today's discussion was possibly the most magnificent, and very clearly given, about people can be in work as well as . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Sharma: . . . devotees. This, today's discussion, if that is available in some publication form, just that much, then I shall be most happy to distribute it among all the Indians. Prabhupāda: Yes, do it. Dr. Sharma: I will do that among all the . . . *Prabhupāda: Sthāne sthitāḥ . . . that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's recommendation. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). You remain your place, but engage your body, tanu; vāk , your words; *and mind. Tanu*-vāṅ-manobhiḥ . Engage all these things for Kṛṣṇa. So tanu means senses. You hear about Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa. Then vān , automatically, words, and mind also. If you hear of Kṛṣṇa, you'll think of Him. In this way there is no need of changing the place. Sthāne sthitāḥ. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi : "My Lord, You are Ajita; *nobody can conquer You. But this person who has engaged his body, mind and words for Your service, he can conquer You." Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. This was spoken by Lord Brahmā, that is . . . there is no question of changing the position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never says so, neither śāstras . But in a regulative way there are steps: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. But on the transcendental platform these things are useless. Simply engage in the service of the Lord. That is mukti . Dr. Sharma: I am thinking that when the Institute is formed, I shall perform all the services, whatever are needed to help. Prabhupāda: Kindly do that. Dr. Sharma: I'll be doing that. I'll be writing now, and . . . Prabhupāda: Your family is also here? Dr. Sharma: Yes, I will be married very soon, in about a month. Hari-śauri: They said Svarūpa Dāmodara went down to the prasādam pavilion, so we sent someone down to find him. Prabhupāda: Oh. Good. Now here is . . . (Svarūpa Dāmodara enters) All right. Dr. Sharma: Yes, we think that you have done supernatural things. We can do at least just a little bit, just a little bit. Prabhupāda: Finishing touch. Dr. Sharma: Well, no, just a little bit. We may not be able to finish it, but we will be able to . . . Prabhupāda: No, the student does roughly, and the master gives the finishing touch, painting. Dr. Sharma: You are very kind. But we will try. It is supernatural. To me it is . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Now here is Dr. Sharma. He is Ph.D. in four subject matters, and besides that he is a lawyer, so he's very highly qualified man, and he wants to give his all aid so that . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we need his help. Prabhupāda: Yes. And he is convinced about our bonafideness of this movement. So by his example many other qualified Indians . . . and it is the business of the Indian. It is Indian culture. They are accepting. Present them most scientifically, and it will be a glory of India. Dr. Sharma: It is up to us to bring Kṛṣṇa's words now . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dr. Sharma: . . . to the world. He wanted us to do it. Prabhupāda: Yes, kindly do that. So you talk with him in detail how to. If you . . . whether our, this branch will be situated. They say here it is good? Svarūpa Dāmodara: For Institute? Yes. I am also going to Boston to see the facilities there. Prabhupāda: But he can write. He give you. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes, he can furnish it in so many ways, and we are going to need Sharma's help, because he's in the government agency in the scientific field, so . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. If he wants to help us, he can help us in so many ways. Dr. Sharma: Yes, I'll be very much honored to help. Prabhupāda: And he's convinced. He's not an ordinary person. He's convinced. So let us take his help and . . . Dr. Sharma: I'll see what the government and the foundations . . . I can go to the foundation to help it. Once the Institute is formed, I can go to the foundations to get the money from them both to support the movement, for the Institute, for education. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dr. Sharma: Once we get started on that . . . you must be very tired now. You have a . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Today is Ekādaśī also. Dr. Sharma: I do not know when I will be fortunate to have your darśana again, but I certainly think God will be again give me the blessing to have your darśana . India is fortunate to have . . . Prabhupāda: We shall see every moment, every day with our work. If the work is going on, then I see you, you see me. (laughs) Dr. Sharma: And I think that Vivekananda came here before. He brought some things. After that, it was nothing was brought out. The only thing which has been brought out which is genuine, which is really in the benefit of Indian . . . Prabhupāda: Indian culture, it is really a fact. Dr. Sharma: These are the only two things which I have seen. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you very much. Jaya . Take this. Dr. Sharma: I will remember you always out of seeing you in this. Prabhupāda: Your full name? Dr. Sharma: Dinesh. Prabhupāda: Very nice name. Dr. Sharma: Dinesh Sharma. Prabhupāda: Dīna bandhu, dīneśa . (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. All right. Dr. Sharma: God's kindness has brought me to your feet. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do they own it or lease it? Rāmeśvara: They lease. The city builds it, and they lease it from the city. Prabhupāda: What is the name of this airport? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: La Guardia. Prabhupāda: La Guardia, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are three airports. Prabhupāda: I think these buildings are not ten years ago. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. New York has three airports. Rāmeśvara: This is the oldest airport. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kennedy, La Guardia, and there's one just across the river, Newark. It's in New Jersey, but it's considered part of the Port Authority. Prabhupāda: I hear, Māyāpur Project, you have not been sending money? Rāmeśvara: Not yet. Prabhupāda: They want money. Gargamuni has written. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they've been calling for money regularly, but we have not been able to send them any. Rāmeśvara: I met with Gurukṛpā Swami, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he has just transferred from the Japanese collections 125,000 dollars. He is writing one letter. Prabhupāda: Better . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ten thousand a month. Prabhupāda: Not all at a time. Management is not very good. So . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Little by little. Prabhupāda: One lakh will be sufficient. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For carrying on the work. Prabhupāda: Things are going on here nice? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're gradually improving. Actually, everything has just begun here; it's by no means complete. You'll see that all of the work is just in progress. It's not . . . it will take a while to make it very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Manage nicely. Kṛṣṇa is giving us everything; there is no scarcity. If we simply sincerely work, Kṛṣṇa will give us intelligence, everything. By His mercy everything is available. That is Kṛṣṇa—He can give you anything. (pause) Prabhupāda: That Brooklyn Bridge, I think? That iron bridge? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there is a Brooklyn Bridge, but we're not going over it. Prabhupāda: Sometimes I was coming there and sitting down near the bridge. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Near the water? You were sitting near the water part? Prabhupāda: Yes, that river. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a famous bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge. It's the biggest expansion*-type bridge. Prabhupāda: Because I was on that Bowery Street; it is not very far away. So I was coming, walking there, and sitting under the bridge. And thinking, "Whether I shall return to India?" (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said you were always inquiring when the boat was returning. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is one sub*-railway station . . . beginning with F? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fulton Street? Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fulton Street. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Sometimes I am going there. Fulton. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's very well known. Rāmeśvara: It's in the Village. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This bridge we're going on is called the Triborough Bridge. Prabhupāda: Oh. This is over New York? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it goes over the East River. Prabhupāda: That Hudson Street? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hudson River is on the other side. This is going on the east side of the city. Prabhupāda: That subway that goes to the city office? There are so many bridges. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many, yes, many, many bridges. Every day about seven million people come into this island of Manhattan from the other boroughs, and they go back. From your room . . . our building is very close to the Empire State Building, so from your room you have a very nice view of it. Prabhupāda: Oh. So Los Angeles everything is going nice? Rāmeśvara: Everything is very nice. We just had a big saṅkīrtana marathon for this Fourth of July, and they distributed up to thirty thousand Back to Godheads in just a few days. Prabhupāda: (referring to garland) Make it smaller. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it's all one garland, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You can make smaller. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Rāmeśvara: We had a good success because we sent out all the householders to the parks. During that holiday everyone goes to the parks. So the householders took their children and they set up a tent, and one of them stayed there babysitting, and all the others went out distributing your books. So in that way they went out on traveling saṅkīrtana . *Prabhupāda: What is the name of that boy? He sold one Caitanya*-caritāmṛta to a chemist. Rāmeśvara: Praghoṣa? *Hari-śauri: No, not Praghoṣa. He's originally from New York, big, heavy, thick*-set boy. Prominent features. Begins with J. *Prabhupāda: One chemist of Karanpur, he sold one book, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , then he talked with me. He's pleased. Rāmeśvara: The chemist? *Hari-śauri: Yes. He sold him a Caitanya*-caritāmṛta and then he brought him over and Prabhupāda spoke to him. Prabhupāda: New York climate is very nice? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice. Like Calcutta. Hari-śauri: On July the Fourth Prabhupāda went and drove into Washington to see the fireworks. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Hari-śauri: In the evening. We had traveling kīrtana all around the city. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think this is enough, Prabhupāda? I'll tie it together now. Prabhupāda: No, no. Hari-śauri: We didn't see much of the firework display, but he liked the kīrtana . It was amazing. The reaction was just amazing. People were dancing and chanting and waving when we went past. Prabhupāda was in ecstasy. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: New York climate is very nice. Sometimes now it rains a little bit, then shining. So just like Bengal. Rāmeśvara: I observed that these devotees at New York, they've practically given up sleeping this past week to prepare everything for your arrival. Prabhupāda: (laughs) They are so kind to me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they worked very hard. *Rāmeśvara: It reminded me that time when the Press devotees stayed up all the time to get those Caitanya*-caritāmṛta volumes. The same spirit. They just stopped eating and sleeping. Prabhupāda: That is love. These things can be done only out of love. Rāmeśvara: There were some hired carpenters and painters, and their last day of working was, I think, Wednesday. So yesterday and this morning they came in voluntarily. They stayed up the whole night without sleep, and they continued working. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They worked now from eight o'clock yesterday, and they just finished this morning. Straight through the night. Prabhupāda: They are professional? Rāmeśvara: Professional, but by the association of the devotees . . . Prabhupāda: They become . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of them now says that he wants to rent a room for the whole year in our building. Rāmeśvara: He loves the prasādam . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says he likes the prasādam . Prabhupāda: Why don't you stay here? No rent; you stay here. You are devotee, you stay here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a celibate right now. He's not married, bachelor. Prabhupāda: Take prasādam , stay here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what he wants, and let him give part of his income. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because of this rain the atmosphere is actually very clean now. You notice that. It's not very much smog, compared to usual. This is the FDR Drive. Prabhupāda: These are cooperative buildings? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda. These are lower*-middle class cooperative buildings. This is the East Side. Prabhupāda: I selected one cooperative apartment, they wanted five thousand dollars. (laughs) I had no money. Very nice apartment, near city office. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Downtown. This is First Avenue here, at about 116th Street, where we are now. *Prabhupāda: Our building is on the Fifty*-fourth? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty*-fifth Street. Just near Broadway, one block from Broadway. Prabhupāda: Broadway is important place. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very important. Our building is right in the midst of the theater, restaurant and entertainment section of the city. Prabhupāda: In New York I feel little homely, because first I came here. I was loitering on the street here and there. From 1965 September to '67 July, continually I stayed in New York. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two years. Rāmeśvara: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja gave one class this morning. So he was explaining that we cannot understand the good fortune of this city that you have come here. We cannot begin to estimate how fortunate this city is. Prabhupāda: Yes, I, when I decided I shall go foreign country, I never thought of going to London; I thought of coming here. Generally they go to London, but I thought, "No, I shall go to New York." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very progressive. Prabhupāda: (laughs) I do not know. It is Kṛṣṇa's dictation. I could have gone. London was nearer. But I thought, "No, I shall go to New York." Sometimes, I think, I was coming this part. Aimlessly . . . I think the United Nation building is somewhere here? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's a little further down. It's on this avenue, it's on Forty*-fourth Street, and we are on Ninety-sixth Street. We are a little bit uptown. *Prabhupāda: And Ninety . . . yes. That Indian Consulate office is Sixty*-fourth. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sixty*-fourth Street, and just off Central Park. Prabhupāda: I was coming there sometime, talking with the officers. One Mr. Malhotra was there, he was showing me, very friendly. He arranged some meeting in Consulate office. They had some organization, Tagore Organization. Second Avenue we'll come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is First Avenue, then comes Second. Prabhupāda: Yes, sometimes walking on the Second Avenue. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're going to go up to Central Park and then go along the Park. *Prabhupāda: This is Ninety*-sixth? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Ninety*-sixth Street. Prabhupāda: There was fire in this building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are many fires in this city, I notice. Prabhupāda: It is due to the warm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, due to the warm, and also the buildings, some of them are old, and they are not built properly. Prabhupāda: Not taken care of. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Our building is also an old building. It's seventy years old. But it's made of solid stone and concrete, brick. Prabhupāda: Then it will never get old. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's extremely . . . Prabhupāda: You have to simply change the plastering. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, painting, plastering. Prabhupāda: Then it will continue new for hundreds of years. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's built like that. It's all steel reinforced everywhere. Prabhupāda: Ah, then it is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's rated . . . it has the top fire rating in the city. Prabhupāda: After three years it will require little repairing, then it will keep new always. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right now we're in the process of simply repainting it, giving it a fresh coat of paint to make it new, because they had not painted it for about ten years, former owners. Prabhupāda: It should be painted every three years, then it will be all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Rāmeśvara: On the outside as well. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything. Then the building will keep very fresh always. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is Second Avenue? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is I think Third Avenue. Next comes Lexington Avenue. Prabhupāda: This is black area? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Puerto Rican and black. This city has as many, Puerto Ricans as Puerto Rico does. So many Puerto Rican people come here, because it's part of . . . it's a possession of the United States. So the East Side is Puerto Ricans and the West Side . . . Prabhupāda: Generally they are worker class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. This is Park Avenue. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: Some of the billboard signs are even Portuguese also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spanish. Prabhupāda: They speak Spanish? Rāmeśvara: Puerto Ricans speak Spanish. Prabhupāda: Why don't you sell Spanish books to them? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We do. We distribute here Spanish books from New York. *Rāmeśvara: Today Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja is sending to the printer the last volume of the First Canto in Spanish, another volume of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam in Spanish. And before you leave New York he will give you . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll give him . . . Rāmeśvara: . . . a new book in Spanish, the *Kṛṣṇa Book*, Volume One. Prabhupāda: Oh. Rāmeśvara: That is coming in a few days. *Prabhupāda: You have seen Chinese Bhagavad*-gītā ? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we have seen that. Prabhupāda: You have got it? Hari-śauri: Yes, in the back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have it also. I sent a copy to Peking. Prabhupāda: He has done very nice. First six chapters. So in three books it will be finished. Hari-śauri: The next six chapters are coming out soon. Prabhupāda: That boy is doing very nice. Yaśomatī? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sūta. Prabhupāda: Sūta, yes, very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Madison Avenue. Here is Fifth Avenue. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Central Park. I was coming to Central Park from the other side, Seventy*-second Street. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our temple is four blocks from Central Park. Just walking distance. The mothers and children go there. Prabhupāda: Central Park? Very nice. So you have advantage of the park. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. And on Sundays we put on saṅkīrtana in the park, and then the people are invited to come to the temple for the feast. Now, because of the good weather, many people leave the city on the weekend, so the numbers of people who are coming on the Love Feast days is not as much as before the summer and after the summer. Now they like to go to the beaches and resort areas, where it's cool and there's water. Prabhupāda: The zoo is here also here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jewish people? Prabhupāda: No, zoo, zoology. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Zoo, zoology. Yes, Central Park Zoo is on about Sixty*-fourth Street, Sixty-fifth Street, just off of the east. Prabhupāda: All big, big buildings. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's New York. The population now of the greater New York area is eighteen million. Prabhupāda: Eighteen million? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: It was ten million. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it has very much increased now. That includes the outlying . . . Prabhupāda: How it is increased? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it includes the outlying suburbs, which have become very developed. Rāmeśvara: Long Island. It includes Long Island. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just as many people are living here now, and many, many more people are living on the outskirts. Rāmeśvara: And Queens. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Queens and Brooklyn, much more people are living there than before. Queens and Long Island especially. *Prabhupāda: So Bali*-mardana is doing all right? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he and I stay together. We get up at two*-thirty in the morning, chant sixteen rounds before ārati , saying Gāyatrī strictly on time, eating very little, and he reads a great deal of the day, two or three hours he reads, and he's also preaching, giving classes. Prabhupāda: His wife? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She's engaged in taking care of the Life Members, Indian Life Members who come, and the guest rooms. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. She is expert. (chuckles) She's very expert. She can do nicely. And during winter here it will be so cold you cannot stand even. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, after I left Hawaii, I went to see you in Hawaii, all of the work that we did in this building began from when I returned here. So it's been a great push for the last month or month and a half, I think. They did not do much improvement on the temple the first five or six months they were here. They were just adjusting, I guess. Prabhupāda: Not proper leader. What is this building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the, ah . . . Rāmeśvara: Metropolitan Museum of Art. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Metropolitan Museum of Art. Very famous art museum. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . saw fireworks in Washington. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's the Empire State Building, Prabhupāda, straight ahead. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: I think one day our art paintings will also be in these museums, because our artists are becoming as expert as anyone. Prabhupāda: Must be. Rāmeśvara: Already people are coming and offering minimum one thousand dollars to buy a painting. In Los Angeles, I have sold some paintings for a thousand dollars each. Prabhupāda: Originals. Rāmeśvara: Original and some copies (laughter) also. Prabhupāda: Copy, how do you make copy? Rāmeśvara: We have some artists practicing. So he makes a copy of the original, and I sell it for five hundred dollars. Half the price of the original. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good business. Rāmeśvara: But that will increase. You can get ten thousand, twenty thousand dollars for one painting in the future, because they are paying that much now for inferior work. Prabhupāda: Who is painting nice? Muralī? Rāmeśvara: Muralīdhara, Jadurāṇī, Parīkṣit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Parīkṣit is wonderful. Prabhupāda: Parīkṣit, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He's expert. We have one boy in the temple here who has been doing murals on the walls in the temple room, and he's done it very quickly with a technique called airbrush. Instead of using a brush, you use a spray gun, and you spray the paint on. It's a modern technique. It's especially good in murals and things. Prabhupāda: First of all they draw in lines? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And then they spray on the paint. He finishes a painting in two or three days, big murals. (laughs) He's expert. He's known as the human camera. He can copy any picture onto a wall. His name is Viṣṇu dāsa. *Prabhupāda: Expert. So why does he not go to Māyāpur*-candrodaya . . .? (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's meant to go, after he finishes the temple. You already told him to go last time. Rāmeśvara: We knew you would say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were talking this morning how as soon as you see his work, you'll say he should go to Māyāpur. He paints very quickly. We could actually send him with that spray gun. Prabhupāda: Electric spray? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I don't know if they use electricity, or do you use gas? The thing is that he can paint directly, just as fast. Rāmeśvara: Yes, I had him in L.A. painting with a brush. (indistinct background conversation about painting) Prabhupāda: What is this building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't recognize it. Oh, the Frith Collection, it's an art museum. This whole street is full of art museums. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's one gentleman named Frith. Rāmeśvara: This taxi driver is saying Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Our Jayānanda was driving taxi and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and one day (laughter) he brought to me five thousand dollars. Rāmeśvara: And you used it to print *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* . Prabhupāda: Huh? Rāmeśvara: Was that the time? Prabhupāda: I think, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You kept it then. *Prabhupāda: I kept it. It was given for publishing Bhagavad*-gītā , but I think Macmillan took it. So I spent it for . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then you put him in charge to sell all the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*, I remember. (Prabhupāda laughs) Jayānanda: Didn't sell too many books, though. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I thought he was the best, most appropriate person to drive you. Prabhupāda: He was chanting and driving. Very good boy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cyavana has been here also. Prabhupāda: Just train him. He is good boy. He has fallen down, just take care of him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, actually the work here needs, you'll see, this building, it actually requires four or five big leaders. Prabhupāda: One may fall down, but you have to take care. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's much better now. Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll do. He's good worker, if you can train him, he's a good worker. He can do very nice. He has fallen in māyā , just take care of him. What can be done? He's good worker, very good worker. He can do intelligent service. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very intelligent, very high class, nice devotee. Prabhupāda: He knows accounting. There was no guide, he became alone . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's exactly what he said. Prabhupāda: . . . and became spoiled. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said there was just too much for himself alone. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difficulty. As soon as there is lack of good association, one falls a victim. What about that boy, Ṛṣi Kumāra? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he's doing great. He's taken up joint charge of the restaurant. Prabhupāda: He's also very good boy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All day long he cooks, and after he cooks, then the people take the prasādam in the restaurant, he goes out and preaches to them. Prabhupāda: He's an able worker. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he goes out and he leads a hari*-nāma party on the street. He's very enthusiastic to make this restaurant very successful. Prabhupāda: But keep watch on him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For the women. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He gets deluded. Well, you know what we've done with all of these people, Prabhupāda, we've . . . Prabhupāda: If they are disturbed, let them marry. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He doesn't want. He says he knows it's a waste of time, marriage. What we have done with Ṛṣi Kumāra and Bali*-mardana is that we are living with them. Like Ṛṣi Kumāra lives with Ādi-keśava Swami. Prabhupāda: Somebody must be with him. Then it is all right. Not alone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've put them with the senior . . . Prabhupāda: Either Cyavana or him, some experienced devotee must be with him. Then they . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do nicely. Prabhupāda: And I think Ṛṣi Kumāra is a good cook also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: My personal opinion he's the best cook that I've so far seen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Since he has come here, the prasādam in the restaurant has at least doubled in the quality. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Completely different prasādam . He's learned the Gujarati style. Kachorīs , samosā , every kind of special prep. When we stayed in Kailash Shiksharya's house when we were first in Bombay, the things that those cooks were cooking, he knows how to cook. Very high class Marwari and Gujarati cooking. Prabhupāda: He's very intelligent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Maṇibandha, he's another one. He's cooking with Ṛṣi Kumāra. Prabhupāda: He's also very intelligent boy, but sometimes spoiled. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a lot of them here. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, we have to take care of so many souls. (taxi*-driver yells) What does he say? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said you have a nice car. That's good they like the car. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Ask "Why don't you come here?" (laughter) "Why you are driving taxi? Come here." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's amazing how everybody is looking at us. *Prabhupāda: Now, formerly it was thirty*-five, now it is sixty-five? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda. Everything has doubled in price. This car is very ordinary, but it is because you are in it, Prabhupāda, that they are looking. Ordinarily it is not such a special car. Prabhupāda: What is the maker? Hari-śauri: LTD. What is it? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's the same, more or less the same car that you had when you were driving in Los Angeles. Hari-śauri: The same as what you had in Melbourne also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a Ford. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles, this was Mercedes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Mercury. Right? Mercury? Prabhupāda: No, this is nice car. Rāmeśvara: It's their version of Cadillac, Mercury's version of Cadillac. They cannot understand. Because we say we are not after material opulence for ourselves, they cannot understand that we drive in these cars. *Prabhupāda: They think that we unnecessarily criticize. But we require everything. But just like a man, when he's alive his decoration, his nice dress, everything is very good. But if he's dead, then it is useless. Similarly, without spiritual consciousness we are dead, because the body is dead. Because the spirit soul is there, therefore it is moving. The important point is the spirit soul. So if you are simply taking care of the body very nicely, that means you are decorating the dead body. What is the value of it? It is clear? The body is important because the soul is there. So long the life is there, if you decorate the body everyone will appreciate. But if you decorate the dead body, people will say: "What a fool he is!" Aprāṇasyaiva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka*-rañjanam (Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya 3.11). That is simply a popular applause, "Ah, the dead body is decorated." But what is the value of it? Similarly, without spiritual knowledge, this dead civilization simply on the bodily concept of life, it is ludicrous. That we have to condemn. Take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then everything is . . . just like one, if there is zero, then it is ten. Another zero, hundred. But without one, simply zero, it is only useless. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That one is Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: And Kṛṣṇa's representative. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya . Prabhupāda: One, if there is one, then zero has value. If there is no one, then simply increasing zeroes, what do we get for that? That is the position. There is no spiritual understanding; they are simply after material advancement. Therefore despite all advancement materially, they are not happy. You cannot be. Now they are trying to bring life by material combination. It is all impossible, childish. Our scientists, they have come? No. Hari-śauri: Yes. Sadāpūta. Yes, they are all here, aren't they? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara here? Hari-śauri: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah. Prabhupāda: Mādhava and Svarūpa. Hari-śauri: Three of them, Mādhava, Svarūpa and Sadāpūta also. Rāmeśvara: Ever since we published that article that they wrote in Back to Godhead , many people have been impressed that, "Oh, Ph.D's, they are accepting this movement." Many Indian guests in Los Angeles, they all comment that they have read this article, and now they are taking our movement ser . . . Prabhupāda: Now I have collected one Indian, four items he is Ph.D. He is Ph.D. in chemistry, Ph.D. in engineering . . . Hari-śauri: Dr. Sharma? Prabhupāda: Yes. And Ph.D. in pathology. Four. And he's lawyer also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is he going to do? Prabhupāda: He's going to help our, this . . . (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are bookstalls. Look at that. Barnes and Noble, they are putting up bookstalls here. Rāmeśvara: Another Ph.D. from India has joined our movement in Denver. He's just moved into the temple. He has a Ph.D. in psychology. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are horse carriages here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just there. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is Fifty*-seventh? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty*-ninth. You don't want to turn here, huh, Jayānanda? Do you? Go up Fifty-ninth, it would be nicer. This is where the parade begins. From here down, straight. All the way down Fifth Avenue. *Prabhupāda: The Ratha*-yātrā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. From here all the way down, we go all the way down to the park. You know that park? Washington Square Park. All the way down, three rathas . It's the biggest avenue. Prabhupāda: Is there any hour limit? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Two or three hours it will take. You've got to get on the right side, Jayānanda. Prabhupāda: It appears more congested than before. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, business is increasing. Prabhupāda: Population are increased. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had a festival to celebrate the Fourth of July in the Battery, down at Battery Park. Four million people attended. We sold prasādam there. Over one thousand dollars of prasādam (laughs) was sold from our prasādam cart. Prabhupāda: They liked? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. They were selling kachorīs , sandwiches. Prabhupāda: This Doubleday Company, they take our books? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah . . . Rāmeśvara: I don't know. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm not sure. Rāmeśvara: I don't know. Generally the bookstores, they don't take our books because our distributors are distributing on the street in front of the bookstore; *they say it is competition. But the college bookstores, they all take our books. We just got a report from Satsvarūpa Mahārāja that this past month of June in America they sold seventy*-five standing orders. And that is remarkable, because all the schools are closed in June, and still they sold them books. They closed for the summer, and still they are ordering your books. Prabhupāda: In this street I think there is one library office . . . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's Fifty . . . it's either Fifty*-fifth or Fifty-third, and it's called . . . it's one of main sub-branches. Yes, it's a very well known one. Prabhupāda: "Free rent"? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Free rent. Rent a safe deposit box for one year and we'll give you an extra six months free." But first you have to pay for one year. Chemical Bank. Huge buildings now everywhere. Prabhupāda: This is Rockefeller? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda. Now everything looks like the Rockefeller Plaza. All of the buildings are built in that same style. Very opulent. Now every day I look out the window of our building and I think when it will come that we will have one of these buildings. It won't be long. You can see how big these are, Prabhupāda. This is Sixth Avenue. Prabhupāda: So we are between Sixth Avenue and . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're between Eighth Avenue and Ninth. Actually, our building can be seen from here. Hare Kṛṣṇa is on the outside of it. Hari-śauri: I can see it, just on the left. Rāmeśvara: Straight ahead. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's on the left straight ahead. It's a brown building on the left side. Hari-śauri: There's a tree on the top. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has gold letters going down the side of it saying Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Hari-śauri: It's the brownish one with the white . . . little white cabin*-type thing on the top of it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're very lucky. We rented a garage one block away which can house four buses and twenty vans. Only one block away from it. It's very unusual. Otherwise . . . Prabhupāda: You have taken the whole garage? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, otherwise it's not possible to get parking space in New York. See the "Hare Kṛṣṇa" now, Prabhupāda, on the side of the building? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayānanda, maybe you should park on the right side. We can walk across the street rather than getting out . . . Rāmeśvara: Yes, good idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pull over if you can on the right side, then Prabhupāda can see the building from across the street. (break) Yes, at least for the next five or ten years. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Then you'll have to change again. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then we want the Empire State Building. (laughter) We have a nice banner which flies in front of the building also. I think you should park on the right side, Jayānanda, unless . . . (indistinct discussion on where to park) All right, park on the left. See the banner? Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do they own it or lease it? Rāmeśvara: They lease. The city builds it, and they lease it from the city. Prabhupāda: What is the name of this airport? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: La Guardia. Prabhupāda: La Guardia, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are three airports. Prabhupāda: I think these buildings are not ten years ago. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. New York has three airports. Rāmeśvara: This is the oldest airport. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kennedy, La Guardia, and there's one just across the river, Newark. It's in New Jersey, but it's considered part of the Port Authority. Prabhupāda: I hear, Māyāpur Project, you have not been sending money? Rāmeśvara: Not yet. Prabhupāda: They want money. Gargamuni has written. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they've been calling for money regularly, but we have not been able to send them any. Rāmeśvara: I met with Gurukṛpā Swami, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he has just transferred from the Japanese collections 125,000 dollars. He is writing one letter. Prabhupāda: Better . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ten thousand a month. Prabhupāda: Not all at a time. Management is not very good. So . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Little by little. Prabhupāda: One lakh will be sufficient. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For carrying on the work. Prabhupāda: Things are going on here nice? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're gradually improving. Actually, everything has just begun here; it's by no means complete. You'll see that all of the work is just in progress. It's not . . . it will take a while to make it very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Manage nicely. Kṛṣṇa is giving us everything; there is no scarcity. If we simply sincerely work, Kṛṣṇa will give us intelligence, everything. By His mercy everything is available. That is Kṛṣṇa—He can give you anything. (pause) Prabhupāda: That Brooklyn Bridge, I think? That iron bridge? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there is a Brooklyn Bridge, but we're not going over it. Prabhupāda: Sometimes I was coming there and sitting down near the bridge. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Near the water? You were sitting near the water part? Prabhupāda: Yes, that river. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a famous bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge. It's the biggest expansion*-type bridge. Prabhupāda: Because I was on that Bowery Street; it is not very far away. So I was coming, walking there, and sitting under the bridge. And thinking, "Whether I shall return to India?" (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said you were always inquiring when the boat was returning. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is one sub*-railway station . . . beginning with F? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fulton Street? Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fulton Street. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Sometimes I am going there. Fulton. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's very well known. Rāmeśvara: It's in the Village. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This bridge we're going on is called the Triborough Bridge. Prabhupāda: Oh. This is over New York? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it goes over the East River. Prabhupāda: That Hudson Street? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hudson River is on the other side. This is going on the east side of the city. Prabhupāda: That subway that goes to the city office? There are so many bridges. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many, yes, many, many bridges. Every day about seven million people come into this island of Manhattan from the other boroughs, and they go back. From your room . . . our building is very close to the Empire State Building, so from your room you have a very nice view of it. Prabhupāda: Oh. So Los Angeles everything is going nice? Rāmeśvara: Everything is very nice. We just had a big saṅkīrtana marathon for this Fourth of July, and they distributed up to thirty thousand Back to Godheads in just a few days. Prabhupāda: (referring to garland) Make it smaller. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it's all one garland, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You can make smaller. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Rāmeśvara: We had a good success because we sent out all the householders to the parks. During that holiday everyone goes to the parks. So the householders took their children and they set up a tent, and one of them stayed there babysitting, and all the others went out distributing your books. So in that way they went out on traveling saṅkīrtana . *Prabhupāda: What is the name of that boy? He sold one Caitanya*-caritāmṛta to a chemist. Rāmeśvara: Praghoṣa? *Hari-śauri: No, not Praghoṣa. He's originally from New York, big, heavy, thick*-set boy. Prominent features. Begins with J. *Prabhupāda: One chemist of Karanpur, he sold one book, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , then he talked with me. He's pleased. Rāmeśvara: The chemist? *Hari-śauri: Yes. He sold him a Caitanya*-caritāmṛta and then he brought him over and Prabhupāda spoke to him. Prabhupāda: New York climate is very nice? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice. Like Calcutta. Hari-śauri: On July the Fourth Prabhupāda went and drove into Washington to see the fireworks. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Hari-śauri: In the evening. We had traveling kīrtana all around the city. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think this is enough, Prabhupāda? I'll tie it together now. Prabhupāda: No, no. Hari-śauri: We didn't see much of the firework display, but he liked the kīrtana . It was amazing. The reaction was just amazing. People were dancing and chanting and waving when we went past. Prabhupāda was in ecstasy. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: New York climate is very nice. Sometimes now it rains a little bit, then shining. So just like Bengal. Rāmeśvara: I observed that these devotees at New York, they've practically given up sleeping this past week to prepare everything for your arrival. Prabhupāda: (laughs) They are so kind to me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they worked very hard. *Rāmeśvara: It reminded me that time when the Press devotees stayed up all the time to get those Caitanya*-caritāmṛta volumes. The same spirit. They just stopped eating and sleeping. Prabhupāda: That is love. These things can be done only out of love. Rāmeśvara: There were some hired carpenters and painters, and their last day of working was, I think, Wednesday. So yesterday and this morning they came in voluntarily. They stayed up the whole night without sleep, and they continued working. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They worked now from eight o'clock yesterday, and they just finished this morning. Straight through the night. Prabhupāda: They are professional? Rāmeśvara: Professional, but by the association of the devotees . . . Prabhupāda: They become . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of them now says that he wants to rent a room for the whole year in our building. Rāmeśvara: He loves the prasādam . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says he likes the prasādam . Prabhupāda: Why don't you stay here? No rent; you stay here. You are devotee, you stay here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a celibate right now. He's not married, bachelor. Prabhupāda: Take prasādam , stay here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what he wants, and let him give part of his income. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because of this rain the atmosphere is actually very clean now. You notice that. It's not very much smog, compared to usual. This is the FDR Drive. Prabhupāda: These are cooperative buildings? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda. These are lower*-middle class cooperative buildings. This is the East Side. Prabhupāda: I selected one cooperative apartment, they wanted five thousand dollars. (laughs) I had no money. Very nice apartment, near city office. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Downtown. This is First Avenue here, at about 116th Street, where we are now. *Prabhupāda: Our building is on the Fifty*-fourth? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty*-fifth Street. Just near Broadway, one block from Broadway. Prabhupāda: Broadway is important place. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very important. Our building is right in the midst of the theater, restaurant and entertainment section of the city. Prabhupāda: In New York I feel little homely, because first I came here. I was loitering on the street here and there. From 1965 September to '67 July, continually I stayed in New York. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two years. Rāmeśvara: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja gave one class this morning. So he was explaining that we cannot understand the good fortune of this city that you have come here. We cannot begin to estimate how fortunate this city is. Prabhupāda: Yes, I, when I decided I shall go foreign country, I never thought of going to London; I thought of coming here. Generally they go to London, but I thought, "No, I shall go to New York." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very progressive. Prabhupāda: (laughs) I do not know. It is Kṛṣṇa's dictation. I could have gone. London was nearer. But I thought, "No, I shall go to New York." Sometimes, I think, I was coming this part. Aimlessly . . . I think the United Nation building is somewhere here? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's a little further down. It's on this avenue, it's on Forty*-fourth Street, and we are on Ninety-sixth Street. We are a little bit uptown. *Prabhupāda: And Ninety . . . yes. That Indian Consulate office is Sixty*-fourth. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sixty*-fourth Street, and just off Central Park. Prabhupāda: I was coming there sometime, talking with the officers. One Mr. Malhotra was there, he was showing me, very friendly. He arranged some meeting in Consulate office. They had some organization, Tagore Organization. Second Avenue we'll come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is First Avenue, then comes Second. Prabhupāda: Yes, sometimes walking on the Second Avenue. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're going to go up to Central Park and then go along the Park. *Prabhupāda: This is Ninety*-sixth? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Ninety*-sixth Street. Prabhupāda: There was fire in this building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are many fires in this city, I notice. Prabhupāda: It is due to the warm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, due to the warm, and also the buildings, some of them are old, and they are not built properly. Prabhupāda: Not taken care of. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Our building is also an old building. It's seventy years old. But it's made of solid stone and concrete, brick. Prabhupāda: Then it will never get old. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's extremely . . . Prabhupāda: You have to simply change the plastering. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, painting, plastering. Prabhupāda: Then it will continue new for hundreds of years. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's built like that. It's all steel reinforced everywhere. Prabhupāda: Ah, then it is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's rated . . . it has the top fire rating in the city. Prabhupāda: After three years it will require little repairing, then it will keep new always. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right now we're in the process of simply repainting it, giving it a fresh coat of paint to make it new, because they had not painted it for about ten years, former owners. Prabhupāda: It should be painted every three years, then it will be all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Rāmeśvara: On the outside as well. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything. Then the building will keep very fresh always. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is Second Avenue? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is I think Third Avenue. Next comes Lexington Avenue. Prabhupāda: This is black area? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Puerto Rican and black. This city has as many, Puerto Ricans as Puerto Rico does. So many Puerto Rican people come here, because it's part of . . . it's a possession of the United States. So the East Side is Puerto Ricans and the West Side . . . Prabhupāda: Generally they are worker class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. This is Park Avenue. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: Some of the billboard signs are even Portuguese also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spanish. Prabhupāda: They speak Spanish? Rāmeśvara: Puerto Ricans speak Spanish. Prabhupāda: Why don't you sell Spanish books to them? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We do. We distribute here Spanish books from New York. *Rāmeśvara: Today Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja is sending to the printer the last volume of the First Canto in Spanish, another volume of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam in Spanish. And before you leave New York he will give you . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll give him . . . Rāmeśvara: . . . a new book in Spanish, the *Kṛṣṇa Book*, Volume One. Prabhupāda: Oh. Rāmeśvara: That is coming in a few days. *Prabhupāda: You have seen Chinese Bhagavad*-gītā ? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we have seen that. Prabhupāda: You have got it? Hari-śauri: Yes, in the back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have it also. I sent a copy to Peking. Prabhupāda: He has done very nice. First six chapters. So in three books it will be finished. Hari-śauri: The next six chapters are coming out soon. Prabhupāda: That boy is doing very nice. Yaśomatī? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sūta. Prabhupāda: Sūta, yes, very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Madison Avenue. Here is Fifth Avenue. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Central Park. I was coming to Central Park from the other side, Seventy*-second Street. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our temple is four blocks from Central Park. Just walking distance. The mothers and children go there. Prabhupāda: Central Park? Very nice. So you have advantage of the park. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. And on Sundays we put on saṅkīrtana in the park, and then the people are invited to come to the temple for the feast. Now, because of the good weather, many people leave the city on the weekend, so the numbers of people who are coming on the Love Feast days is not as much as before the summer and after the summer. Now they like to go to the beaches and resort areas, where it's cool and there's water. Prabhupāda: The zoo is here also here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jewish people? Prabhupāda: No, zoo, zoology. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Zoo, zoology. Yes, Central Park Zoo is on about Sixty*-fourth Street, Sixty-fifth Street, just off of the east. Prabhupāda: All big, big buildings. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's New York. The population now of the greater New York area is eighteen million. Prabhupāda: Eighteen million? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: It was ten million. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it has very much increased now. That includes the outlying . . . Prabhupāda: How it is increased? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it includes the outlying suburbs, which have become very developed. Rāmeśvara: Long Island. It includes Long Island. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just as many people are living here now, and many, many more people are living on the outskirts. Rāmeśvara: And Queens. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Queens and Brooklyn, much more people are living there than before. Queens and Long Island especially. *Prabhupāda: So Bali*-mardana is doing all right? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he and I stay together. We get up at two*-thirty in the morning, chant sixteen rounds before ārati , saying Gāyatrī strictly on time, eating very little, and he reads a great deal of the day, two or three hours he reads, and he's also preaching, giving classes. Prabhupāda: His wife? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She's engaged in taking care of the Life Members, Indian Life Members who come, and the guest rooms. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. She is expert. (chuckles) She's very expert. She can do nicely. And during winter here it will be so cold you cannot stand even. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, after I left Hawaii, I went to see you in Hawaii, all of the work that we did in this building began from when I returned here. So it's been a great push for the last month or month and a half, I think. They did not do much improvement on the temple the first five or six months they were here. They were just adjusting, I guess. Prabhupāda: Not proper leader. What is this building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the, ah . . . Rāmeśvara: Metropolitan Museum of Art. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Metropolitan Museum of Art. Very famous art museum. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . saw fireworks in Washington. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's the Empire State Building, Prabhupāda, straight ahead. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: I think one day our art paintings will also be in these museums, because our artists are becoming as expert as anyone. Prabhupāda: Must be. Rāmeśvara: Already people are coming and offering minimum one thousand dollars to buy a painting. In Los Angeles, I have sold some paintings for a thousand dollars each. Prabhupāda: Originals. Rāmeśvara: Original and some copies (laughter) also. Prabhupāda: Copy, how do you make copy? Rāmeśvara: We have some artists practicing. So he makes a copy of the original, and I sell it for five hundred dollars. Half the price of the original. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good business. Rāmeśvara: But that will increase. You can get ten thousand, twenty thousand dollars for one painting in the future, because they are paying that much now for inferior work. Prabhupāda: Who is painting nice? Muralī? Rāmeśvara: Muralīdhara, Jadurāṇī, Parīkṣit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Parīkṣit is wonderful. Prabhupāda: Parīkṣit, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He's expert. We have one boy in the temple here who has been doing murals on the walls in the temple room, and he's done it very quickly with a technique called airbrush. Instead of using a brush, you use a spray gun, and you spray the paint on. It's a modern technique. It's especially good in murals and things. Prabhupāda: First of all they draw in lines? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And then they spray on the paint. He finishes a painting in two or three days, big murals. (laughs) He's expert. He's known as the human camera. He can copy any picture onto a wall. His name is Viṣṇu dāsa. *Prabhupāda: Expert. So why does he not go to Māyāpur*-candrodaya . . .? (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's meant to go, after he finishes the temple. You already told him to go last time. Rāmeśvara: We knew you would say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were talking this morning how as soon as you see his work, you'll say he should go to Māyāpur. He paints very quickly. We could actually send him with that spray gun. Prabhupāda: Electric spray? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I don't know if they use electricity, or do you use gas? The thing is that he can paint directly, just as fast. Rāmeśvara: Yes, I had him in L.A. painting with a brush. (indistinct background conversation about painting) Prabhupāda: What is this building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't recognize it. Oh, the Frith Collection, it's an art museum. This whole street is full of art museums. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's one gentleman named Frith. Rāmeśvara: This taxi driver is saying Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Our Jayānanda was driving taxi and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and one day (laughter) he brought to me five thousand dollars. Rāmeśvara: And you used it to print *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* . Prabhupāda: Huh? Rāmeśvara: Was that the time? Prabhupāda: I think, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You kept it then. *Prabhupāda: I kept it. It was given for publishing Bhagavad*-gītā , but I think Macmillan took it. So I spent it for . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then you put him in charge to sell all the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*, I remember. (Prabhupāda laughs) Jayānanda: Didn't sell too many books, though. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I thought he was the best, most appropriate person to drive you. Prabhupāda: He was chanting and driving. Very good boy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cyavana has been here also. Prabhupāda: Just train him. He is good boy. He has fallen down, just take care of him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, actually the work here needs, you'll see, this building, it actually requires four or five big leaders. Prabhupāda: One may fall down, but you have to take care. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's much better now. Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll do. He's good worker, if you can train him, he's a good worker. He can do very nice. He has fallen in māyā , just take care of him. What can be done? He's good worker, very good worker. He can do intelligent service. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very intelligent, very high class, nice devotee. Prabhupāda: He knows accounting. There was no guide, he became alone . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's exactly what he said. Prabhupāda: . . . and became spoiled. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said there was just too much for himself alone. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difficulty. As soon as there is lack of good association, one falls a victim. What about that boy, Ṛṣi Kumāra? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he's doing great. He's taken up joint charge of the restaurant. Prabhupāda: He's also very good boy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All day long he cooks, and after he cooks, then the people take the prasādam in the restaurant, he goes out and preaches to them. Prabhupāda: He's an able worker. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he goes out and he leads a hari*-nāma party on the street. He's very enthusiastic to make this restaurant very successful. Prabhupāda: But keep watch on him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For the women. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He gets deluded. Well, you know what we've done with all of these people, Prabhupāda, we've . . . Prabhupāda: If they are disturbed, let them marry. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He doesn't want. He says he knows it's a waste of time, marriage. What we have done with Ṛṣi Kumāra and Bali*-mardana is that we are living with them. Like Ṛṣi Kumāra lives with Ādi-keśava Swami. Prabhupāda: Somebody must be with him. Then it is all right. Not alone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've put them with the senior . . . Prabhupāda: Either Cyavana or him, some experienced devotee must be with him. Then they . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do nicely. Prabhupāda: And I think Ṛṣi Kumāra is a good cook also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: My personal opinion he's the best cook that I've so far seen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Since he has come here, the prasādam in the restaurant has at least doubled in the quality. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Completely different prasādam . He's learned the Gujarati style. Kachorīs , samosā , every kind of special prep. When we stayed in Kailash Shiksharya's house when we were first in Bombay, the things that those cooks were cooking, he knows how to cook. Very high class Marwari and Gujarati cooking. Prabhupāda: He's very intelligent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Maṇibandha, he's another one. He's cooking with Ṛṣi Kumāra. Prabhupāda: He's also very intelligent boy, but sometimes spoiled. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a lot of them here. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, we have to take care of so many souls. (taxi*-driver yells) What does he say? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said you have a nice car. That's good they like the car. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Ask "Why don't you come here?" (laughter) "Why you are driving taxi? Come here." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's amazing how everybody is looking at us. *Prabhupāda: Now, formerly it was thirty*-five, now it is sixty-five? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda. Everything has doubled in price. This car is very ordinary, but it is because you are in it, Prabhupāda, that they are looking. Ordinarily it is not such a special car. Prabhupāda: What is the maker? Hari-śauri: LTD. What is it? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's the same, more or less the same car that you had when you were driving in Los Angeles. Hari-śauri: The same as what you had in Melbourne also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a Ford. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles, this was Mercedes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Mercury. Right? Mercury? Prabhupāda: No, this is nice car. Rāmeśvara: It's their version of Cadillac, Mercury's version of Cadillac. They cannot understand. Because we say we are not after material opulence for ourselves, they cannot understand that we drive in these cars. *Prabhupāda: They think that we unnecessarily criticize. But we require everything. But just like a man, when he's alive his decoration, his nice dress, everything is very good. But if he's dead, then it is useless. Similarly, without spiritual consciousness we are dead, because the body is dead. Because the spirit soul is there, therefore it is moving. The important point is the spirit soul. So if you are simply taking care of the body very nicely, that means you are decorating the dead body. What is the value of it? It is clear? The body is important because the soul is there. So long the life is there, if you decorate the body everyone will appreciate. But if you decorate the dead body, people will say: "What a fool he is!" Aprāṇasyaiva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka*-rañjanam (Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya 3.11). That is simply a popular applause, "Ah, the dead body is decorated." But what is the value of it? Similarly, without spiritual knowledge, this dead civilization simply on the bodily concept of life, it is ludicrous. That we have to condemn. Take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then everything is . . . just like one, if there is zero, then it is ten. Another zero, hundred. But without one, simply zero, it is only useless. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That one is Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: And Kṛṣṇa's representative. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya . Prabhupāda: One, if there is one, then zero has value. If there is no one, then simply increasing zeroes, what do we get for that? That is the position. There is no spiritual understanding; they are simply after material advancement. Therefore despite all advancement materially, they are not happy. You cannot be. Now they are trying to bring life by material combination. It is all impossible, childish. Our scientists, they have come? No. Hari-śauri: Yes. Sadāpūta. Yes, they are all here, aren't they? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara here? Hari-śauri: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah. Prabhupāda: Mādhava and Svarūpa. Hari-śauri: Three of them, Mādhava, Svarūpa and Sadāpūta also. Rāmeśvara: Ever since we published that article that they wrote in Back to Godhead , many people have been impressed that, "Oh, Ph.D's, they are accepting this movement." Many Indian guests in Los Angeles, they all comment that they have read this article, and now they are taking our movement ser . . . Prabhupāda: Now I have collected one Indian, four items he is Ph.D. He is Ph.D. in chemistry, Ph.D. in engineering . . . Hari-śauri: Dr. Sharma? Prabhupāda: Yes. And Ph.D. in pathology. Four. And he's lawyer also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is he going to do? Prabhupāda: He's going to help our, this . . . (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are bookstalls. Look at that. Barnes and Noble, they are putting up bookstalls here. Rāmeśvara: Another Ph.D. from India has joined our movement in Denver. He's just moved into the temple. He has a Ph.D. in psychology. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are horse carriages here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just there. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is Fifty*-seventh? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty*-ninth. You don't want to turn here, huh, Jayānanda? Do you? Go up Fifty-ninth, it would be nicer. This is where the parade begins. From here down, straight. All the way down Fifth Avenue. *Prabhupāda: The Ratha*-yātrā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. From here all the way down, we go all the way down to the park. You know that park? Washington Square Park. All the way down, three rathas . It's the biggest avenue. Prabhupāda: Is there any hour limit? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Two or three hours it will take. You've got to get on the right side, Jayānanda. Prabhupāda: It appears more congested than before. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, business is increasing. Prabhupāda: Population are increased. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had a festival to celebrate the Fourth of July in the Battery, down at Battery Park. Four million people attended. We sold prasādam there. Over one thousand dollars of prasādam (laughs) was sold from our prasādam cart. Prabhupāda: They liked? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. They were selling kachorīs , sandwiches. Prabhupāda: This Doubleday Company, they take our books? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah . . . Rāmeśvara: I don't know. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm not sure. Rāmeśvara: I don't know. Generally the bookstores, they don't take our books because our distributors are distributing on the street in front of the bookstore; *they say it is competition. But the college bookstores, they all take our books. We just got a report from Satsvarūpa Mahārāja that this past month of June in America they sold seventy*-five standing orders. And that is remarkable, because all the schools are closed in June, and still they sold them books. They closed for the summer, and still they are ordering your books. Prabhupāda: In this street I think there is one library office . . . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's Fifty . . . it's either Fifty*-fifth or Fifty-third, and it's called . . . it's one of main sub-branches. Yes, it's a very well known one. Prabhupāda: "Free rent"? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Free rent. Rent a safe deposit box for one year and we'll give you an extra six months free." But first you have to pay for one year. Chemical Bank. Huge buildings now everywhere. Prabhupāda: This is Rockefeller? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda. Now everything looks like the Rockefeller Plaza. All of the buildings are built in that same style. Very opulent. Now every day I look out the window of our building and I think when it will come that we will have one of these buildings. It won't be long. You can see how big these are, Prabhupāda. This is Sixth Avenue. Prabhupāda: So we are between Sixth Avenue and . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're between Eighth Avenue and Ninth. Actually, our building can be seen from here. Hare Kṛṣṇa is on the outside of it. Hari-śauri: I can see it, just on the left. Rāmeśvara: Straight ahead. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's on the left straight ahead. It's a brown building on the left side. Hari-śauri: There's a tree on the top. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has gold letters going down the side of it saying Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Hari-śauri: It's the brownish one with the white . . . little white cabin*-type thing on the top of it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're very lucky. We rented a garage one block away which can house four buses and twenty vans. Only one block away from it. It's very unusual. Otherwise . . . Prabhupāda: You have taken the whole garage? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, otherwise it's not possible to get parking space in New York. See the "Hare Kṛṣṇa" now, Prabhupāda, on the side of the building? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayānanda, maybe you should park on the right side. We can walk across the street rather than getting out . . . Rāmeśvara: Yes, good idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pull over if you can on the right side, then Prabhupāda can see the building from across the street. (break) Yes, at least for the next five or ten years. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Then you'll have to change again. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then we want the Empire State Building. (laughter) We have a nice banner which flies in front of the building also. I think you should park on the right side, Jayānanda, unless . . . (indistinct discussion on where to park) All right, park on the left. See the banner? Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Prabhupāda: So one thing is that when they are so much careful, that means the book is reacting. Otherwise why they are so careful that they may not come? What do you think? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, sometimes they specifically say: "The others may come, but that one man, we don't want him here." (laughs) He gets out twice as many books as anybody else. Prabhupāda: So, many books or not many books, why they are so much afraid of distributing these books? Devotee (1): It means that the book is potent. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (1): It means that the books are potent. We are affecting the material energy. Prabhupāda: Everywhere in government, India especially, they do not want this movement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the general tendency is . . . Prabhupāda: But people are appreciating, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness catches." Hari-śauri: Catches on. Prabhupāda: They're now appreciating. Devotee (1): Was that a recent article? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the general people are taking it up more and more. I mean there is a growing number of interested persons. Prabhupāda: That he has written. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not only are there numbers of us increasing, but there are many people who come once a week, once every month, who get magazine regularly. That number is increasing beyond what we can imagine, because it's due to the book distribution, Prabhupāda. We're coming due to two things—first the books, and second the association of devotees. But there's a general mass of people that are coming who are just getting the book, and they are beginning to follow simply on account of reading your books. Devotee (1): This is a big article. Wow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's another magazine article like that. *Hari-śauri: Rādhā*-vallabha's got it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is he? Hari-śauri: I don't know. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I asked . . . there's another very special magazine came out, and I asked Rādhā*-vallabha to bring it and present it to you. It's from New York, but I wanted him to read some of the things. He read the whole thing. It's a whole magazine devoted to meditation groups, and they have featured our society as the best. It's clear . . . Prabhupāda: By our features. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our Society was featured more than any others. They mentioned Maharishi and so many others, but they gave . . . Prabhupāda: We are also mentioned. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They gave us the most space in the magazine. Hari-śauri: They did it in sections. There was a bit about kīrtana , there was a section about shaving the head, there's a whole section about Kṛṣṇa prasādam , how to offer it and cook it and everything. It was very nice. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's getting it ready. He wants to read you certain things in the magazine. He likes to prepare things to discuss with you, Rādhā*-vallabha, controversial topics. Prabhupāda: What is that controversial? (laughter) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's so nice. He reads things so on the walks, he can throw out scientific arguments and other things. He likes to do that. It's really funny, there's one article, one advertisement in the back of this magazine, meditation magazine. It says: "Special offer: Send in twenty*-five dollars and you will learn how to do transcendental meditation in one evening. And if you are not satisfied, you get your money back, but you get to keep your own private mantra ." This book is a real . . . it really shows you what the whole scene on spiritual groups is, how phony they are, except ours. Ours appears very legitimate from the magazine. But these others are complete hypocrisy. Hari-śauri: He especially canes Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he hates him. Hari-śauri: They did an experiment, and they tried out . . . if one chants . . . he claims that you have to have a special mantra that comes from him, and that will give you the bliss from transcendental meditation. But they did experiments where they just made up any mantra , just a few words, and concentrated on that, and the effect was exactly the same—sleep. They enter into a . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Semiconscious. Hari-śauri: Yes, a very low conscious level. The metabolism is very much slowed down. The breathing and heart rate and everything goes right down, and they stay like that, completely relaxed, for twenty minutes, and then for a few minutes they come out. That is the . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can also do that; we'll hit them with our shoes. (laughter) For twenty minutes they can go unconscious. Free. We don't charge. Hari-śauri: This opening comment in this magazine is very good. It says: "What is surprising about the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is not its conquest of the West, the USA in particular. The cultural impact of this institution, borne on the shoulders of Westerners in the main, has already reached amazing proportions in India." Prabhupāda: That is my policy. Devotee (1): That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew. That's why they are afraid of you in India, Prabhupāda. The government is very much afraid. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Government is alarmed. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well how will they try to stop us? Prabhupāda: Through restrictive government. (door opens) Who is . . .? Let him come. Devotee (1): Here he comes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct discussion) Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu? Prabhupāda wanted to see that boy, Arjuna Mallik? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I went to find him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I sent someone to look for him, they haven't come back. You haven't seen him? It would be nice, because Prabhupāda wanted to see him. Prabhupāda: You know him? Arjuna Mallik? Hari-śauri: I only saw him just this morning. Prabhupāda: Just find him. Hari-śauri: But I have no idea where he's staying. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 703 is the room number. Prabhupāda: All right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara is looking. Hari-śauri: This first paragraph recognizes how in the last two years especially our esteem has improved. It says: "One has to see for oneself . . ." Prabhupāda: Ah, that Sadajivitlal you know. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, very well. Prabhupāda: He says about me that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has smeared the black carbon of all other svāmīs ." (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Black carbon. You know Sadajivitlal from Bombay. Devotee: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He used to get very angry. He said: "I like your Prabhupāda very much, but why does he have to criticize all of our gurus ?" Prabhupāda: Now he is realizing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because at Cross Maidan you were speaking very boldly that all these others are cheating. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are cheating. Is there any meaning that you pay so many dollars and take the mantra ? Mantra is such a thing for business? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In this meditation magazine one of the things that they sell, the special techniques is you take a ping*-pong ball, ping-pong, you know, that table tennis? And you cut it in half and you place the two halves on your eyes, and then that is called samādhi . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Who has said? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll show you the picture when he brings the magazine. They show a person very seriously meditating on two halves of a ping*-pong ball. You have to pay for it. (laughter) Devotee (1): Would you like to go up on the roof today, Prabhupāda? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda said the sun is too much. Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa, he's been doing all of our . . . he's practically done the whole arrangement for the Ratha*-yātrā. Jayānanda is building, and he has done all of the permits, advertising, publicity, the posters—working at least fifteen hours a day for the last month very hard, to make it a very successful festival. I was thinking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that Haṁsadūta was telling me that he is planning to make . . . Prabhupāda: I think this article was dictated by Haṁsadūta. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah. Prabhupāda: Our interviewer came. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was telling me that he was planning to make thousands of men, convert thousands of Indians. I was wondering, if thousands of Indians join us, how will the government feel? Prabhupāda: They cannot check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really. They won't stop us. Prabhupāda: If they want to stop it, it will increase. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, right. Especially in Bengal, as soon as the Bengalis know that something is against the government, then they get very vehement. Devotee: It's encouraging when they try to resist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They call us sāhībs . It says: "What urges the sāhībs and memsāhībs ?" That's how they refer to us. Prabhupāda: Our Māyāpur temple is known as sāhīb mandira . In Vṛndāvana, English, angrezi . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gopāla told me that the guesthouse is doing better. He said that only that eleven rooms right now are occupied by non paying guests, and out of the overall forty*-four rooms, only four rooms are occupied by devotees. The devotees have been shifted elsewhere. And Guṇārṇava has been managing. Prabhupāda: That Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa boy was in Vṛndāvana? Hari-śauri: Stoka Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Stoka. He has left. Hari-śauri: He's back in Los Angeles now. Prabhupāda: He does not stick anywhere. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. (looking at magazine) Whew! This picture of Ratha*-yātrā in London is very impressive. Prabhupāda: With smaller rathas . Hari-śauri: Yes, palanquins. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the crowd is bigger than ever. Devotee: Yes, huge crowd. *Ādi*-keśava: That's when we, ah . . . Toṣaṇa, isn't that the picture that you showed them to show what our carts look like? He told the police, to get our permit, that our carts were like those little small rathas , so that we could get the permit. He said that we were having a parade with hand-pulled floats. When they thought of hand-pulled floats, they thought of little wagons. Hari-śauri: They're going to get a shock. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's breaking the news to them slowly. Hari-śauri: We did that in Melbourne. But then gradually we let them see. Then they took us out for a trial run and everything. (break) Prabhupāda: Note down in the account book. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . presents us as a bona fide Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Vaiṣṇava cult. Says that the ISKCON center, the Māyāpur . . . "ISKCON plans to build in Māyāpur a world center for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will comprise an enormous temple . . ." Prabhupāda: This news has been very much advertised. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When will we begin? Prabhupāda: As soon as we get the land. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The land is coming along? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The land is coming along? Prabhupāda: Yes, government . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are going ahead with it. Prabhupāda: Two officials are in great favor: one Mr. Choudhuri, one Mr. Ganguli. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says that the temple will be so big that India has never seen such a huge temple. Prabhupāda: Choudhuri's wife has challenged that "If you are Hindu, then you will do it." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To her husband. Oh. (laughter) It tells about . . . it quotes you as saying that how you began this movement. Two boys joined you, Chuck and Bruce—Brahmānanda and Acyutānanda, Charles Barnett and Bruce Scharf. Prabhupāda: Charles is called Chuck? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (referring to prasādam ) What is that? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: (indistinct) . . . it's called rājkachorī . (laughter) *Bali*-mardana: Stuffed with dāl , potato, tamarind sauce and sour cream. Devotee (1): Ṛṣi's making up for lost time. Prabhupāda: Where you learned this? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: In Kailash Shaksharya's. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: From Kailash Shaksharya's cook. At least I learned something there. Prabhupāda: From that cook, Kailash's cook? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: Yes. *Prabhupāda: He was very expert. In India, a girl, if she could cook nicely, then she is perfect. There is a ceremony, it is called bahubhat . After marriage the girl comes to her father*-in-law's house and there is a ceremony called bahubhat . In that bahubhat , the girl is to cook and distribute this food to all the relatives of her husband. If they say it is excellent, then she is accepted in this family. *Bali*-mardana: What if they say it is not excellent? Prabhupāda: Nobody says. (laughter) But the ceremony is made. The social system in India is that, "If I do not accept your food, then I do not take you within my inner circle. You remain outside." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a great offense if you offer someone prasādam and they refuse. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means I am not accepting you as intimate. And if he accepts, then you cannot deny his friendship. About one hundred years ago in Bengal, in the aristocratic circle, the guests invited and very sumptuously food distributed, and then the gentlemen, guests, they come and see only, they will simply say: "Oh, it is very nicely done." They'll not eat, and go away. Then the foodstuff will be distributed among the servants. This was aristocracy. They'll not eat, they will simply see and appreciate, "Oh, you have so many varieties, very nice." Then they'll go. And the household servants and others, they eat it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why didn't they eat it? Prabhupāda: That was the custom. *Bali*-mardana: That is a dry philosophy. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You have seen this article? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: Other news, after Mars? No? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I haven't seen the newspapers yet. Might have some more . . . been taking pictures, photographs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda explained that the picture they took of Mars, they now say that there's . . . they pointed out that there's a similar canyon, the Grand Canyon, in Arizona. So they were reporting like this, and Prabhupāda said this is an indication that actually it is a picture of . . . they have unintentionally they have let out the information that actually the photo is simply a photograph of the Grand Canyon. Hari-śauri: He gave an example. There's a man in his room at night, and he hears a noise. So he says: "Oh, what's that sound?" And then back comes the reply, "I am not stealing." So no one asked the man to say what he was doing, but he unintentionally let it out what he was actually doing there. He just asked what the noise was, but he said: "I am not stealing." So in the same way, no one asked them to say anything about Arizona, but they let it out. Prabhupāda: They have disclosed unintentionally. That is going on. It is beyond their dream to go either to the moon planet or Mars planet. It is not possible. Not nowadays I say—I said it ten years ago. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're going to have a difficult time, with the scientists, about this moon. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're going to have a difficult time about this moon and the sun relationship. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sunday, Monday. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is a lifelong project. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Nobody could answer, a simple question. (Hari-śauri explains "Sunday, Monday" question in background) According to Vedic astronomical calculations, sun is first. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But does it have to do anything with distance, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Does it have to do anything with the distance? As the sun is recorded first? *Prabhupāda: No, according to them if sun is first, then it will be ninety*-three millions miles. And if the moon is still away, one million six hundred thousand miles, it becomes ninety-five million miles. How they are going ninety-five millions of miles in four days? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, on that ground it is reasonable to know that they couldn't go there, but . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I say they couldn't go there. Their asset is Arizona, that's all. All this propaganda has gone, and at last they wanted to satisfy by delivering some sand and rock, that's all. Actually the business was not done. Hari-śauri: They say even if there's life on another planet, at most it could be bacteria. Prabhupāda: Nonsense. If bacteria is there, why not others? Hari-śauri: Well the thing is that if they say that there's other life, then they'd have to show it. But they don't know what's there 'cause they've never been. So they have to show either there's no life and here's some rocks, which they got from this planet, or at most there's only bacteria, which they can also produce here and say it's there. But they can't show any advanced life because they don't know. Prabhupāda: They have never gone. Simply bluff. That is my point. *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: Whenever they don't know something, they say it doesn't exist. Prabhupāda: I have got evidence, our Vedic literature. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have other informations other than Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ? Prabhupāda: Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have other evidences? Prabhupāda: We have evidence from astronomy, Jyoti-śāstra. Jyoti-śāstra . *Rādhā*-vallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Manasvī is here. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Manasvī. Shall I tell him to come in? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sit down. Wherefrom you are coming? Manasvī: New Jersey, Hoboken. Prabhupāda: Where is your child? Manasvī: She's downstairs. Prabhupāda: With whom he is there? Manasvī: With her brother. Prabhupāda: So? What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the magazine I was telling you about, Transcendental Meditation Today . Prabhupāda: That is the name of the magazine? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The feature article is . . . Prabhupāda: This is our? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Big article all about our Society. Prabhupāda: Oh, my picture also. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Prabhupāda, ācārya *-founder." Tells all about you and your books. Hari-śauri: It especially mentions your books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a whole page devoted about your books. Hari-śauri: This is the dome downstairs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Hare Kṛṣṇa Meditation. Who is Kṛṣṇa?" (laughs) "The Kṛṣṇa Cut." It tells about the haircut, śikhā . (laughter) Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa cut." (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then in the back there's more articles about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There's the . . . here, "Food for the gods, prasādam ." Hari-śauri: Describes what standard we have for making the prasādam , how you can't taste it, you have to be very clean. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's that . . . remember I was telling you about that meditation on the ping*-pong balls? Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughter) Devotee: "Ganzfeld effect." They give it a name and make it sound very important, and then sell it for a thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: Who's name? Devotee (1): Ganzfeld. They say the Ganzfeld effect. Prabhupāda: Who is Ganzfeld? Somebody know? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's an article about Maharishi. (aside) You want to read it? There's some points in here, it says: "Profit without honor." This man hates Maharishi, says he's completely bogus. Prabhupāda: His picture is hateful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "Profit without any honor." He quotes you in here. Prabhupāda: What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "Swami Prabhupāda, spiritual leader of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and Bill Faill, Durban, South Africa, of the Natal Mercury Reporter , had the following dialogue—Bill Faill: Do you think that Transcendental Meditation is helping people? *Prabhupāda: They do not know what real meditation is. Their meditation is simply a farce, another cheating process by the so*-called svāmīs and yogīs . So everyone is talking about meditation, but no one knows what meditation really is. These bluffers use the word meditation, but they do not know the proper subject for meditation. They are simply talking bogus propaganda. Bill Faill: But isn't meditation helpful in getting people to think straight? Prabhupāda: No. Real meditation means to achieve a state in which the mind is saturated by God consciousness." *Prabhupāda: Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ ( SB 12.13.1). This is the Vedic version. When one man's mind is fully absorbed in the Supersoul, Viṣṇu, that is called meditation. And Bhagavad-gītā confirms: These are the Vedic version. These rascals—some light, some this, some that. *Rādhā*-vallabha: There are some quotes here from people describing Maharishi's meditation. It says: "A Denver housewife said: 'I turned off when I found that TM' " that's what they call Transcendental Meditation, " 'I turned off when I found that TM is trying to sell me meditation the same way Proctor and Gamble sells me soap.' " Prabhupāda: Gamble? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Big soap company. Hari-śauri: Proctor and Gamble manufacture all kinds of soaps and detergents, so she's saying that the way they sell Transcendental Meditation is the same as the way they sell soap. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very commercialized. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They have here proof that his mantra is no different than any ordinary sound. It says: "In a Stanford Research Institute experiment, a group of TM trainees was compared to a control group who had been taught a fake mantra that they believed would be effective. In both groups some subjects were able to bring unpleasant psychosomatic symptoms under control. Three of these dropped out of the TM training group. Their symptoms returned. Two dropped out of the control group, their symptoms came back too. Evidence like that suggests that whatever works in the TM system, it does not depend upon the mystical mantra ." Prabhupāda: Let their men come and talk with our men in a public meeting. Then people will understand what is the difference. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have a catalog, Transcendental Meditation University. It's very well done, nice colors and anything, first class. They spend a lot of money and a lot of thoughts how to bring . . . how to attract the students. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says their University's just closed down. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, the one at Iowa? Hari-śauri: No, the one in Majorca, in Spain. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is the headquarters, Iowa, the main University. We saw the catalog. It contains everything, all sciences. Hari-śauri: This article explains that when he first appeared in public, he presented himself as a Hindu representative of Śaṅkarācārya's cult, but then later on he concocted this Transcendental Meditation, and then he presented it as a science so that he could get government grants to teach it in schools and things like this. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They have another guru here, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. Prabhupāda: He has also come? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His group is big here. He's very popular in America. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Eighteen thousand disciples. He says: "It does not matter to whom one surrenders. The relevance is in the act of surrendering. But because the human mind sees things in terms of relationships, surrender to a guru is often useful. The guru is a step toward the impersonal divine, a step toward surrender to the existence." Hari-śauri: He makes a comment about sannyāsa as well, I think. *Rādhā*-vallabha: He initiates sannyāsa , they call themselves neo- sannyāsa . "At initiation a sannyāsī receives a new name, an ochre robe and a mālā , a string of beads holding a locket that frames a photograph of Bhagwan." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhagwan Rajneesh, not Bhagavān. *Rādhā*-vallabha: The one who says it's not necessary to have a spiritual master. He says: "The picture is not mine. Had it been mine I would have hesitated to put it there. The picture only appears as mine." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's word jugglery. (laughter) The picture is of himself, he says: "It is not me. If it was me I would not have put it there. It only appears to be me." Devotee (1): They want something very cheap and easy to attain. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Here's his method. First they engage in breathing. It says: "The really successful meditator sounds like an exhausted sea lion." He says: "If you feel like dancing, dance, laugh, scream, sing, express your love, your hate, your anger, your jealousy. Do not condemn what happens; do not condone it. Just go mad. Express whatever is within you totally, intensely." And here's his mantra , " Hoo hoo hoo. " That's his mantra . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were doing this in Bhopal. In Bhopal, we were there when we had our Jeeps. So in the same place we were staying they let this group Rajneesh do it. So they were going with that mantra , " Hoo hoo ." So we were standing out from the balcony shouting, "Kṛṣṇa, that's who." Every morning they would do that meditation, and we would answer "Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) Hari-śauri: They call his method "chaotic meditation." Prabhupāda: They say? Hari-śauri: That's the heading, it says "Chaotic Meditation." *Rādhā*-vallabha: That's the name of it. After they go " Hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo . . ." Prabhupāda: What about . . . what they have written about us? *Rādhā*-vallabha: About us? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A big article. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Everything is favorable. They didn't say one bad thing about us. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. The group above are performing a kīrtana , the chanting of the names of Kṛṣṇa, the Vedic Deity they believe to be the supreme personification of Godhead. They are shown before the doorway of 1 Astor Plaza in Manhattan's Times Square area. Their chant, increasingly familiar on street corners in all large cities across the country, runs, 'Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.' These Kṛṣṇa devotees belong to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, less formally known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement and still less formally to the man in the street as the Harry Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Actually, Prabhupāda, one . . . Prabhupāda: Harry Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They think that we're worshiping a person, some material man, by the name of Harry Kṛṣṇa. They think that your name is Harry Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) *Ādi*-keśava: In Boston they once wrote an article in the newspaper, the Boston Globe , they said: "I walked into the temple room and there he was, a big picture of Harry Kṛṣṇa sitting on a big throne." (laughter) On the vyāsāsana . Hari-śauri: Harry is an English . . . Prabhupāda: Harry, Harrison, like that. Devotee (1): They are saying Kṛṣṇa's name. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I read more? "There are several hundred thousand members of the movement . . . several hundred thousand members of the movement throughout the world. Ten thousand in New York City alone." Actually, there are at least ten thousand followers. "Of these, about a hundred and fifty are full*-time students and live at 340 West Fifty-fifth Street, an eleven-story former Josephine Baird Home of the Roman Catholic Carmelite Nuns." This was a nunnery, Carmelite nuns. "The Hare Kṛṣṇa center on West Fifty-fifth Street draws about five hundred lay devotees and curiosity-seekers from the metropolitan area every Sunday. Open house begins at five p.m. A great drawing card is the serving of prasādam , food specially prepared for and offered to Lord Kṛṣṇa before being distributed to the public. The eating of prasādam (see the article 'Food of the Gods' on a later page), is believed by members of the movement to convey important spiritual benefits—for example, the cleansing of karma due to past sins. Movement members are not unaware of the more immediate and mundane effect. Prasādam is our secret weapon,' said Alaṅkāra dāsa, spokesman for the center. 'It gets them in here, and then they can get the message.' Les Tursley, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, India-based senior member of the movement, has said of prasādam in his country . . ." *Rādhā*-vallabha: They think you're an Indian. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They think I'm an Indian. " 'If anyone comes around to our prasādam distribution program, that means he is hungry. If he is hungry, that means he cannot listen to our philosophy. If his hunger is not satisfied, he'll never become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the point. If we just went around with a program of speaking and kīrtana , they would come once or twice but they wouldn't see its practical value. But if you give them prasādam daily with kīrtana and speaking, eventually you can convince them, "Look, this is our most practical way of life. Why don't you come and live with us completely and work with us?" That's a quote from an article in Back to Godhead . "Though food is far more plentiful in the United States than in India, prasādam appeal seems to work its magic here just as well. The entire movement began only ten years ago in a storefront temple in Manhattan's Lower East Side. Today it owns the largest publishing house of Hindu classics, many in demand for leading university courses. The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust in Los Angeles, the world's largest, last year's gross of one million dollars; *incense*-producing Spiritual Sky Scented Products Company; *and Kṛṣṇa Fashions Incorporated, a wholesale clothing manufacturer. An important portion of the movement's income comes from the contributions of lay devotees, who are successful businessmen. More comes from street*-corner solicitation of alms by devotees during kīrtana . How significant the last is was shown recently by the closing down of elevator service in the New York center. 'A lot of us are going on pilgrimage to India,' said Alaṅkāra dāsa. 'There won't be many around to beg. These elevators cost us $2,200 a month to run. So we're cutting down except for essential services.' " We don't do that anymore. That was the previous mismanagement. Someone had the idea that if you turn off the elevator, that's very good. But I told him if you're not going to run the elevator, then why did you move here? They had people walking up eleven stories, and it was crazy, just to save . . . anyway, "These include moving foodstuffs and milk into the building. Much of the food comes from a 350-acre ISKCON-owned dairy farm in Academia, Pennsylvania, one of the six similar facilities in this country and Canada." They show pictures of devotees in the temple, devotees taking prasādam and two lady devotees. "The yoga ," it says under the captions, "monks take breakfast by hand in rows on the dining area floor." Here it says, "Saried women devotees dwell in cloister atmosphere of the center." Then "The yoga of devotion: Tilaka of clay paste marks the devotee as a member of ISKCON sect. Central shrine in the temple is the focal point of twice a day services." A picture of Rādhā-Govinda. " 'Our life is our meditation' said a śikhā -ed, saffron-clad monk in the Hare Kṛṣṇa center. 'Everything we do is offered to Śrī Kṛṣṇa, but in addition to that there is the personal chanting, most . . .' " (break) ". . . slung from the devotee's neck. He often counts the beads without taking his hand from the pouch. In the early hours the Hare Kṛṣṇa center buzzes with a droning sound, difficult to identify by the stranger who does not know that it comes from the monks, who are beginning their required sixteen rounds." They have given everything very detailed. "The personal chanting sometimes occurs in unusual situations—while escorting a visitor to the center, while waiting to complete a phone call, or even during pauses in a conversation." (laughter) Devotees are always chanting. " 'The mahāmantra is the only mantra needed' the devotee says. Besides the sixteen rounds, devotees are expected to observe four rules. They must abstain from meat-eating, intoxication, gambling and illicit sex. Illicit sex is defined as any sexual act other than that intended for procreation. Sex outside of marriage is forbidden. Married, full-time devotees may have sexual relationship once a month at a time propitious for procreation. All the devotee's activities are regarded as bhakti-yoga , the yoga of devotion. He regards everything he does as service to God. The name he is given at initiation is followed by the word dāsa , 'a servant.' Full-time ISKCON devotees adopt Vedic dress, one objective being to keep others aware of Kṛṣṇa. Women wear sārīs , the men dhotīs; *both may wear shawls. The men shave their heads except for a single lock of hair at the back. (See the article 'The Kṛṣṇa Cut.') The lock, called a śikhā , identifies the followers of Kṛṣṇa." Actually, no one can imitate us because no one wants to give up their hair, so no one will try to make believe they are devotees. "Shaving the head announces renunciation of material pleasures. The tilaka is a mark made with clay—two narrow vertical stripes on the forehead meeting in a triangular swatch on the bridge of the nose. It identifies the body as a temple to be used only in the service of God. Full*-time students follow a rigorously monastic life. They arise at four a.m. in the morning, begin four hours of prayer and chanting. At nine o'clock they have breakfast, seated cross-legged on mats on the floor. The men eat apart from the women. During the day devotees work at various preaching programs or at regular jobs. At seven p.m. devotional services are held in the center's temple. In Manhattan this features an ornate shrine including representations of Kṛṣṇa and His consort, Rādhe. Both are costumed sumptuously with elaborate care; *both wear festoons of flowers. Visitors are cautioned, 'When you go in the temple remember that these statues you see are not representations of the Deities, they are the Deities. Kṛṣṇa is in everything. Kṛṣṇa is everywhere.' Temple kīrtana ." There's a picture. "Eleven*-story New York sect's center is former Carmelite Baird home." Picture of the temple. "Services in the temple are attended by about five hundred every Sunday. Many of these are from New York's Hindu population. Frequently husbands bring their pregnant wives, dedicating their unborn child to Kṛṣṇa. The kīrtana begins with the chanting of the mahā-mantra , slowly at first and melodiously. Later the chant will speed up as the spirit of the devotion spreads. Often the most rapid and intense chanting is done by a hard-core knot of dhotī -ed men before the curtains of the shrine." The devotees get in one group and start . . . (laughter) Hard-core devotees. "The rhythm approaches that of an express train, and the atmosphere is apt to remind a lay visitor of an old-fashioned football rally. Some of the onlookers try to keep up with the central group, clapping their hands, swaying their bodies, throwing arms upwards and, among the younger, adapting modern dance steps to the rhythm. When the shrine curtains are drawn back, devotees kneel and press their foreheads . . ." Prabhupāda: Who has introduced this peculiar dancing? Hari-śauri: It just evolved. (laughs) Rūpānuga: We were speaking about that the other day. It's changed from the original dancing that you showed us to something else. Too much like the modern dancing. Prabhupāda: Hmm. I think this is not good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shall I read on, Prabhupāda? "The service has become . . ." What way should we dance, Śrīla Prabhupāda? With our hands outstretched? Sometimes the devotees like to jump around. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: In ecstasy one can do anything, that is another . . . but artificially to do something is not good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But if one feels like jumping, it is all right? Prabhupāda: Anything artificial is not required. Rūpānuga: So running back and forth is not . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, that should not be an artificial. Hari-śauri: We don't dance for show; we dance for the pleasure of the Deities. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're not professional dancers. "The service has become so frenetic that the almost folksy, matter of fact preaching of the Swami makes a stark contrast. 'Some people are against us because they say we teach children to smile. Well isn't that too bad. We make children smile—we are bad. We try to teach them that life should be a joyful thing—we're evil. Well that's too bad, isn't it? ' " Devotees: Who's that? That's crazy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is theory. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So he has not returned with the key? Hari-śauri: Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Still more? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "After the sermon, more chanting. Now it really becomes frantic, and even compelling. Many curious first*-time visitors begin to take up the mahā-mantra chant. The hard-core group at the shrine seems to be completely carried away. The terrazo floor literally vibrates. Gradually the crowd begins to thin. Other things are happening in the center. On the third floor there is a traditional Vedic play in costume, acted with enthusiasm." (sound of kīrtana ) Hari-śauri: It's going downstairs somewhere, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Ādi*-keśava: They're getting everybody together to go out on saṅkīrtana party. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "On the second floor there is a store which attracts many visitors who want to buy Indian costumes, jewelry and the movement's books. Prasādam is served in the basement restaurant. Visitors eat at tables in the same area where monks had breakfast on the floor. The prasādam features Hindu dishes served in the compartments of plasticized paper mess trays." Then it goes on. Now there's another article about you. (aside) Why are they holding a kīrtana now? *Ādi*-keśava: They're getting a kīrtana party together to go out on hari-nāma down at Times Square. (indistinct conversation among devotees) Prabhupāda: Hmm. What does he say? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Prabhupāda, ācārya -founder, born Abhay Charan De in India in 1895, the founder . . . future founder- ācārya , spiritual leader of ISKCON, came under the spiritual direction of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja, ascetic scholar and preacher who had devoted his life to the spread of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Three years later, shortly before he died, Bhaktisiddhānta ordered Abhay to spread the Kṛṣṇa faith in the English language. One of the ways that Abhay, now known as Prabhupāda—'one at whose feet masters sit'—did that was to begin to translate the classic Vedic literature, but it was not until thirty years after he was charged by his spiritual mentor that he was able to make a trip to the United States. He arrived in Boston in September 1965, a spry but grim-faced passenger of seventy years on the steamer Jaladuta . He had forty rupees in his pocket and a metal suitcase full of his books and translations. Finding his way to New York City, he set up a storefront temple at 26 Second Avenue in the East Village section. Gradually he drew a small coterie of students around him, mostly through his preaching in Tompkinson Park. As his movement grew, he found backers among his converts. Hare Kṛṣṇa centers were established in Boston, Buffalo and San Francisco, and an appreciation of Prabhupāda's Vedic translations by American university authorities, Columbia, Princeton, Yale professors among others, permitted the establishment of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust in Los Angeles. The Trust launched a promotion of Prabhupāda's translations and original works under the logo of the Living Library of Transcendental Knowledge. Remarkably, in the face of a worldwide economic recession, the Trust's book and magazine sales reached nine million in 1975, up 34.5 percent over 1974. Some of this was due to the determined promotion of groups such as the hundred-man Rādhā-Dāmodara group, which criss-crosses the country in six Greyhound-type buses and ten vans giving lectures and kīrtanas at college university campuses. Now eighty*-one years old, Prabhupāda still works at his writings and the spiritual direction of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. His translation of Bhagavad-gītā , the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is , the most widely used in the Western world, is in great demand by professors of Indology and Vedic literature." Prabhupāda: He has given advertisement for our books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Very favorable. *Rādhā*-vallabha: The amazing thing is that he's an impersonalist. Prabhupāda: Impersonalist? *Rādhā*-vallabha: The man who wrote all of these articles, he's an impersonalist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's a picture of him. Prabhupāda: Oh, he's American? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Tripurāri: He thinks there are different types of meditation that all work, and ours is one type, bona fide, that works. There are also other types. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The article goes on—I don't know if you want to hear it all. You want to hear it? Okay. Here's this thing called "Who is Kṛṣṇa?" "Kṛṣṇa, viewed by ISKCON as the supreme personification of Godhead, is said to have many pastimes in which He assumes different appearances. One such is that of Gopālajī, the cowherd boy (see picture, 'Cowherd Boy') He can appear in other forms such as four*-armed Nārāyaṇa. Most often Kṛṣṇa is portrayed as having light blue skin and, by Western standards, a soft and effeminate physique. He is said to be full in the six opulences: beauty, strength, fame, wealth, knowledge and renunciation. He is said to be all-attractive. Kṛṣṇa incarnates on one planet after another in infinite universes. The last time He appeared on earth as Kṛṣṇa was five thousand years ago. He will not return in that form for another four hundred thousand years. But five hundred years ago He appeared in His incarnation of Lord Caitanya, who taught people of the mahā-mantra and started the Kṛṣṇa consciousness in its present state. According to the Bhagavad-gītā , Kṛṣṇa hungers for the devotion of His followers." Very nicely put. "This devotion in its pure sense takes the form of bhakti-yoga , the dedication of one's every action to Kṛṣṇa. Thus to use one's sense for one's own pleasure is to deny Kṛṣṇa devotion and accumulate negative karma . Kṛṣṇa has a consort, Rādhe, but She is considered only as an extension of His own pleasure principle, since He is all things. It is through Her intercession that devotees seek favors from Kṛṣṇa. According to ISKCON, Kṛṣṇa is the same God worshiped as Jehovah, Allah and so on." That is the explanation of who Kṛṣṇa is. *Rādhā*-vallabha: He could write for Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He could write for Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: Yes, it is good. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. Then there is a part called "Hare Kṛṣṇa Meditation." "The Hare Kṛṣṇas practice bhakti , the yoga of devotion. They have their mahā*-mantra , continual recitation of which will have a meditative effect. By integrating recitation of the mantra with a life of rigidly formulated devotional activities, it would seem that devotees actually live their meditation. Such a life of living meditation is not without parallel in secular fields. It is believed that the spiritual form of alchemy served this purpose; that is, an alchemist repeated the same experimental routine over and over until it became automatized, though still requiring some slight personal involvement." He's getting a little far out here. "It was expected that the result . . ." This is material. Anyway, ". . . practitioners of Western magical disciplines sought for similar results. Meditation takes effect in terms of the ambiance in which it is practiced. In the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement there are certain to be transcendental experiences. They would be in accord with Vedic teachings, but their exact nature has not proven easy of discovery, since devotees insist that their sole aim in life is to be of service to Kṛṣṇa." We're not interested in experiencing all of these special things. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice point. Then there's a part about the Kṛṣṇa cut. Says here, "Badge. The badge of the monks is a single lock that hangs from a rear of shaven head. As a precisely trimmed śikhā is a matter of pride, monks often cooperate in shaving one another. Hair is buzzed off by clipper (left side), leaving a bristly surface (center)"—shows the bristly surface. Prabhupāda: He has taken photograph of it? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughter) Yes. ". . . which is lathered up and shaved with a safety razor (right side). Even more striking than their saffron dhotīs and shawls is the ISKCON men's practice of shaving their heads with the exception of one long lock in the rear, known as the śikhā . The first reaction of the layman is "Why do they do it?" The next is "How do they do it?" The Hare Kṛṣṇas themselves advance three different answers to the first question. Some say that in countries that have hot climates, the religious have always shaved their heads to ensure cleanliness. A clean body reflects a pure spirit." Prabhupāda: One letter should be written to him that, "You have taken so much trouble to describe Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, so thank you for your patience. Now we shall request you to read our books and review it. That will be real presentation of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Now you have studied superficially, and if you seriously study our books, you'll get more knowledge and you'll be able to give description of the movement more definitely." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to hear about what else he has to say? *Prabhupāda: Um*-hmm. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Others insist that the style of shaving the head identifies devotees of various spiritual orders. The long śikhās marks a man as a follower of Kṛṣṇa. Still another group says that the head*-shaving simply stands for renunciation of the material world, its values and its pleasures. One or more of those reasons may be the true one. Possibly all of them have a multi-determined . . . have multi-determined the Kṛṣṇa cut. The 'how' of the cut is simplicity itself. Commonly two men cut each others' hair. Our pictures show how. Phase one of the cutting, known as the buzz-off, is done with ordinary . . ." (laughter) Prabhupāda: Buzz off? (laughter) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. ". . . is done with ordinary hair clipper. The post buzz*-off effect . . ." (laughter) Rūpānuga: This guy's made a science out of it. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ". . . shown in the second picture. Next, the prickly sconce." Prabhupāda: What is that meaning? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prickly sconce. Prickly means short*-haired, and sconce means . . .? Hari-śauri: Look it up in the dictionary. (laughter) *Rādhā*-vallabha: People like to think they are scientific like this. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "The prickly sconce is lathered up with an old*-fashioned mug and brush and shaved with a safety razor. It is considered of paramount importance that the base of the śikhā be shaved round evenly. The shavee sometimes shows some nervousness about this." He gets nervous that they'll cut his śikhā off. This man has caught every detail. Prabhupāda: Good writer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's a good one. Hari-śauri: It says "Sconce: crown of head." It's an old term for the crown of the head. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a special article about prasādam , Prabhupāda, called "Food for the Gods." "Of all the ways of getting to heaven, or nirvāṇa , or whatever your ideal place may be, the Hare Kṛṣṇa way is one of the most pleasant. Believers of this faith are convinced that you can eat your way into higher spiritual realms. Of course, this doesn't mean that food itself is sacred and the more you eat the holier you are. To begin with, there is a strict prohibition against the killing of animals, so meat, fish and eggs are not included in the diet at all of the Kṛṣṇa devotees. Furthermore, there are many special rules for preparing the food which may be offered to Kṛṣṇa to be blessed by Him and therefore to bring blessings to anyone who partakes of it." Should I read this whole article? *Prabhupāda: Um*-hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "The recipes given below, taken from the Hare Kṛṣṇa Cookbook"—another good advertisement, and they give you at least three or four recipes in here. They give recipes for, the recipes are for . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, he has given more pages for our movement. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, he's given us three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve pages. And the whole magazine, including many advertisements . . . actually the nonadvertised part is about fifty*-five pages, of which we have twelve. At least one fifth of the book is for Hare Kṛṣṇa. The other groups only have three pages, four pages. And he blasts them mostly. Some of them are really nonsense. Here's one called the Deichmann Experiment. You stare at a vase . . . Prabhupāda: Another meditation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, this is another one, Deichmann Experiment. Then they have one about Zen Buddhism, it shows Zen meditation. Here's a Zen master sitting in front of a basketball. I don't know why. *Ādi*-keśava: They have a meditation they call Zen basketball. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Ādi*-keśava: We went to one seminar once when they were teaching Zen basketball. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's another one, "Hypnotism or Meditation?" "A hypnotist discusses a question that many face." Because they accuse that we're hypnotizing, so they're trying to distinguish in this article what is hypnotism, what is meditation. Then here's another one, "The Art of Awareness." This woman is supposed to be a great transcendental artist. You can see some of her famous pictures. Here's a picture called "Congregations of Souls." And here's another picture called "Temple Stones." Then this is the Ganzfeld Effect. (laughter) Ping*-pong balls. Says here, "The apparently pop-eyed lady is not a visitor from another dimension nor the victim of a sudden surprise. She is the subject of an experiment into the nature of meditation and some of the effects of the processes. The ping-pong ball halves present a completely continuous visual field. There's no object in it that can hold her attention. After staring at the insides of the ping-pong balls for a while, she will begin to feel peaceful and . . ." Prabhupāda: Actually she does? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, that's the meditation. They put the ping*-pong ball, and then it describes, "She will feel peaceful and serene. At the same time she may not be able to tell whether her eyes are open or closed. She will see neither white nor black nor any shade in between. She will have the experience of not seeing. At that point, which the subject in this kind . . ." Prabhupāda: With the eyes closed, then not seeing is there already. (laughter) What is the use of meditating? *Hari-śauri: You aren't going to see very much with two ping*-pong balls over your eyes, are you? (laughter) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "The white hemispheres covering her eyes are halves of ping*-pong balls. The wires lead off to an electroencephalograph, E.E.G. It keeps a record of changes in her brainwave output. At that point when she is not seeing, which subjects in this kind of experiment call 'blanking out,' the electroencephalograph will record a brainwave output well into the alpha range." They also tell you how to make the Ganzfeld, how to cut the . . . it shows a ping-pong ball and a knife. (laughter) This guy is weird. Hari-śauri: This thing about alpha range, this is becoming a big thing. They think that if a person gets into this alpha range of brain stimulation, then his meditation is successful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're trying to figure it all out scientifically. *Ādi*-keśava: They're trying to use all kinds of machines and wires to measure consciousness. They have one group that has tin cans attached to wires, and they hold them in their hand, and then they measure it on the machine as they meditate. And when they meditate right, the needle on the machine goes right in the middle, and they think they have achieved perfection. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here is an article called "Travels Beyond the Body: What is it that travels, and what is it that's seen?" They're talking about traveling beyond your body. Here's an advertisement, "Because I have taken the mystery out of transcendental meditation, I will teach you to master transcendental meditation in a single evening." "About the author." Then it says: "Free private mantra based on your own name, selected by the great Norbell, translated by his special Sanskrit system, so that no one else in America has the same mantra twice. No other system of transcendental meditation . . ." Prabhupāda: What is this? Maharishi? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Maharishi Yogi? Hari-śauri: No, this is competition. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, this isn't . . . Hari-śauri: This is the competition. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This man says: "Norbell, for over thirty years his unrelenting thirst for spiritual fulfillment has taken him to the most remote corners of the globe to finally become one of the few Westerners in our time who has ever gained acceptance as an equal among the holy masters of both India and Tibet. He has also mastered the scientific secrets of Western knowledge in America's most highly regarded universities. In America alone over the past decades, tens of thousands have come to Carnegie Hall in New York and dozens of other centers of public hearing all to hear him." He says: "Meditation can make this claim alone, and it's yours to keep. Your own mantra free, even if you return the report itself. Mail this coupon at no risk today. 'Gentlemen, please rush me a copy of Norbell's five minute de*-mystified transcendental meditation.' " (laughter) De-mystified, taking the mystery out. "Confidential report. 'I enclose nine dollars and ninety-eight cents in full payment. I understand that I may examine this confidential report for thirty days at your risk or money back. Also send me my own private mantra , specially selected for me by Master Norbell and mine absolutely free, even if I return the report, with every cent of my money back.' " It says here—these are the benefits of the mantra —one of the benefits is, it says here, one of the benefits, "and as an extra benefit of such heightened personal magnetism, a simple shift in the focus of your daily meditations can give you great new sexual and romantic powers, new joys in love." Devotee (1): They're all cheaters. It's just another con. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's another group called Arika. This Arika costs three thousand dollars, this process. They charge three thousand dollars for a ninety*-day course. *Ādi*-keśava: Part of their whole meditation is they have cocktail parties. They drink liquor and they meet and they have these therapy, and they charge him money to go to a cocktail party and call it yoga . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, it's got a good article about us. You want to keep it to show guests who come, the article? Prabhupāda: No. (laughter) Hari-śauri: Anyone who reads that magazine will immediately become attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there's no comparison. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's got the best article I've ever seen, though, about us, in great detail. It really reports the details. Prabhupāda: Hmm. This is also good article. (break) Hmm! Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa, where is the key? Key? Distribute this prasādam . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can see how he's cooking very . . . he's the most expert I've ever seen, and he knows these special preparations. He can cook many varieties of kachorī . (end) Prabhupāda: So one thing is that when they are so much careful, that means the book is reacting. Otherwise why they are so careful that they may not come? What do you think? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, sometimes they specifically say: "The others may come, but that one man, we don't want him here." (laughs) He gets out twice as many books as anybody else. Prabhupāda: So, many books or not many books, why they are so much afraid of distributing these books? Devotee (1): It means that the book is potent. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (1): It means that the books are potent. We are affecting the material energy. Prabhupāda: Everywhere in government, India especially, they do not want this movement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the general tendency is . . . Prabhupāda: But people are appreciating, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness catches." Hari-śauri: Catches on. Prabhupāda: They're now appreciating. Devotee (1): Was that a recent article? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the general people are taking it up more and more. I mean there is a growing number of interested persons. Prabhupāda: That he has written. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not only are there numbers of us increasing, but there are many people who come once a week, once every month, who get magazine regularly. That number is increasing beyond what we can imagine, because it's due to the book distribution, Prabhupāda. We're coming due to two things—first the books, and second the association of devotees. But there's a general mass of people that are coming who are just getting the book, and they are beginning to follow simply on account of reading your books. Devotee (1): This is a big article. Wow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's another magazine article like that. *Hari-śauri: Rādhā*-vallabha's got it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is he? Hari-śauri: I don't know. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I asked . . . there's another very special magazine came out, and I asked Rādhā*-vallabha to bring it and present it to you. It's from New York, but I wanted him to read some of the things. He read the whole thing. It's a whole magazine devoted to meditation groups, and they have featured our society as the best. It's clear . . . Prabhupāda: By our features. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our Society was featured more than any others. They mentioned Maharishi and so many others, but they gave . . . Prabhupāda: We are also mentioned. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They gave us the most space in the magazine. Hari-śauri: They did it in sections. There was a bit about kīrtana , there was a section about shaving the head, there's a whole section about Kṛṣṇa prasādam , how to offer it and cook it and everything. It was very nice. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's getting it ready. He wants to read you certain things in the magazine. He likes to prepare things to discuss with you, Rādhā*-vallabha, controversial topics. Prabhupāda: What is that controversial? (laughter) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's so nice. He reads things so on the walks, he can throw out scientific arguments and other things. He likes to do that. It's really funny, there's one article, one advertisement in the back of this magazine, meditation magazine. It says: "Special offer: Send in twenty*-five dollars and you will learn how to do transcendental meditation in one evening. And if you are not satisfied, you get your money back, but you get to keep your own private mantra ." This book is a real . . . it really shows you what the whole scene on spiritual groups is, how phony they are, except ours. Ours appears very legitimate from the magazine. But these others are complete hypocrisy. Hari-śauri: He especially canes Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he hates him. Hari-śauri: They did an experiment, and they tried out . . . if one chants . . . he claims that you have to have a special mantra that comes from him, and that will give you the bliss from transcendental meditation. But they did experiments where they just made up any mantra , just a few words, and concentrated on that, and the effect was exactly the same—sleep. They enter into a . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Semiconscious. Hari-śauri: Yes, a very low conscious level. The metabolism is very much slowed down. The breathing and heart rate and everything goes right down, and they stay like that, completely relaxed, for twenty minutes, and then for a few minutes they come out. That is the . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can also do that; we'll hit them with our shoes. (laughter) For twenty minutes they can go unconscious. Free. We don't charge. Hari-śauri: This opening comment in this magazine is very good. It says: "What is surprising about the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is not its conquest of the West, the USA in particular. The cultural impact of this institution, borne on the shoulders of Westerners in the main, has already reached amazing proportions in India." Prabhupāda: That is my policy. Devotee (1): That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew. That's why they are afraid of you in India, Prabhupāda. The government is very much afraid. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Government is alarmed. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well how will they try to stop us? Prabhupāda: Through restrictive government. (door opens) Who is . . .? Let him come. Devotee (1): Here he comes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct discussion) Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu? Prabhupāda wanted to see that boy, Arjuna Mallik? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I went to find him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I sent someone to look for him, they haven't come back. You haven't seen him? It would be nice, because Prabhupāda wanted to see him. Prabhupāda: You know him? Arjuna Mallik? Hari-śauri: I only saw him just this morning. Prabhupāda: Just find him. Hari-śauri: But I have no idea where he's staying. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 703 is the room number. Prabhupāda: All right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara is looking. Hari-śauri: This first paragraph recognizes how in the last two years especially our esteem has improved. It says: "One has to see for oneself . . ." Prabhupāda: Ah, that Sadajivitlal you know. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, very well. Prabhupāda: He says about me that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has smeared the black carbon of all other svāmīs ." (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Black carbon. You know Sadajivitlal from Bombay. Devotee: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He used to get very angry. He said: "I like your Prabhupāda very much, but why does he have to criticize all of our gurus ?" Prabhupāda: Now he is realizing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because at Cross Maidan you were speaking very boldly that all these others are cheating. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are cheating. Is there any meaning that you pay so many dollars and take the mantra ? Mantra is such a thing for business? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In this meditation magazine one of the things that they sell, the special techniques is you take a ping*-pong ball, ping-pong, you know, that table tennis? And you cut it in half and you place the two halves on your eyes, and then that is called samādhi . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Who has said? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll show you the picture when he brings the magazine. They show a person very seriously meditating on two halves of a ping*-pong ball. You have to pay for it. (laughter) Devotee (1): Would you like to go up on the roof today, Prabhupāda? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda said the sun is too much. Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa, he's been doing all of our . . . he's practically done the whole arrangement for the Ratha*-yātrā. Jayānanda is building, and he has done all of the permits, advertising, publicity, the posters—working at least fifteen hours a day for the last month very hard, to make it a very successful festival. I was thinking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that Haṁsadūta was telling me that he is planning to make . . . Prabhupāda: I think this article was dictated by Haṁsadūta. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah. Prabhupāda: Our interviewer came. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was telling me that he was planning to make thousands of men, convert thousands of Indians. I was wondering, if thousands of Indians join us, how will the government feel? Prabhupāda: They cannot check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really. They won't stop us. Prabhupāda: If they want to stop it, it will increase. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, right. Especially in Bengal, as soon as the Bengalis know that something is against the government, then they get very vehement. Devotee: It's encouraging when they try to resist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They call us sāhībs . It says: "What urges the sāhībs and memsāhībs ?" That's how they refer to us. Prabhupāda: Our Māyāpur temple is known as sāhīb mandira . In Vṛndāvana, English, angrezi . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gopāla told me that the guesthouse is doing better. He said that only that eleven rooms right now are occupied by non paying guests, and out of the overall forty*-four rooms, only four rooms are occupied by devotees. The devotees have been shifted elsewhere. And Guṇārṇava has been managing. Prabhupāda: That Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa boy was in Vṛndāvana? Hari-śauri: Stoka Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Stoka. He has left. Hari-śauri: He's back in Los Angeles now. Prabhupāda: He does not stick anywhere. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. (looking at magazine) Whew! This picture of Ratha*-yātrā in London is very impressive. Prabhupāda: With smaller rathas . Hari-śauri: Yes, palanquins. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the crowd is bigger than ever. Devotee: Yes, huge crowd. *Ādi*-keśava: That's when we, ah . . . Toṣaṇa, isn't that the picture that you showed them to show what our carts look like? He told the police, to get our permit, that our carts were like those little small rathas , so that we could get the permit. He said that we were having a parade with hand-pulled floats. When they thought of hand-pulled floats, they thought of little wagons. Hari-śauri: They're going to get a shock. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's breaking the news to them slowly. Hari-śauri: We did that in Melbourne. But then gradually we let them see. Then they took us out for a trial run and everything. (break) Prabhupāda: Note down in the account book. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . presents us as a bona fide Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Vaiṣṇava cult. Says that the ISKCON center, the Māyāpur . . . "ISKCON plans to build in Māyāpur a world center for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will comprise an enormous temple . . ." Prabhupāda: This news has been very much advertised. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When will we begin? Prabhupāda: As soon as we get the land. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The land is coming along? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The land is coming along? Prabhupāda: Yes, government . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are going ahead with it. Prabhupāda: Two officials are in great favor: one Mr. Choudhuri, one Mr. Ganguli. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says that the temple will be so big that India has never seen such a huge temple. Prabhupāda: Choudhuri's wife has challenged that "If you are Hindu, then you will do it." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To her husband. Oh. (laughter) It tells about . . . it quotes you as saying that how you began this movement. Two boys joined you, Chuck and Bruce—Brahmānanda and Acyutānanda, Charles Barnett and Bruce Scharf. Prabhupāda: Charles is called Chuck? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (referring to prasādam ) What is that? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: (indistinct) . . . it's called rājkachorī . (laughter) *Bali*-mardana: Stuffed with dāl , potato, tamarind sauce and sour cream. Devotee (1): Ṛṣi's making up for lost time. Prabhupāda: Where you learned this? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: In Kailash Shaksharya's. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: From Kailash Shaksharya's cook. At least I learned something there. Prabhupāda: From that cook, Kailash's cook? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: Yes. *Prabhupāda: He was very expert. In India, a girl, if she could cook nicely, then she is perfect. There is a ceremony, it is called bahubhat . After marriage the girl comes to her father*-in-law's house and there is a ceremony called bahubhat . In that bahubhat , the girl is to cook and distribute this food to all the relatives of her husband. If they say it is excellent, then she is accepted in this family. *Bali*-mardana: What if they say it is not excellent? Prabhupāda: Nobody says. (laughter) But the ceremony is made. The social system in India is that, "If I do not accept your food, then I do not take you within my inner circle. You remain outside." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a great offense if you offer someone prasādam and they refuse. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means I am not accepting you as intimate. And if he accepts, then you cannot deny his friendship. About one hundred years ago in Bengal, in the aristocratic circle, the guests invited and very sumptuously food distributed, and then the gentlemen, guests, they come and see only, they will simply say: "Oh, it is very nicely done." They'll not eat, and go away. Then the foodstuff will be distributed among the servants. This was aristocracy. They'll not eat, they will simply see and appreciate, "Oh, you have so many varieties, very nice." Then they'll go. And the household servants and others, they eat it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why didn't they eat it? Prabhupāda: That was the custom. *Bali*-mardana: That is a dry philosophy. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You have seen this article? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: Other news, after Mars? No? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I haven't seen the newspapers yet. Might have some more . . . been taking pictures, photographs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda explained that the picture they took of Mars, they now say that there's . . . they pointed out that there's a similar canyon, the Grand Canyon, in Arizona. So they were reporting like this, and Prabhupāda said this is an indication that actually it is a picture of . . . they have unintentionally they have let out the information that actually the photo is simply a photograph of the Grand Canyon. Hari-śauri: He gave an example. There's a man in his room at night, and he hears a noise. So he says: "Oh, what's that sound?" And then back comes the reply, "I am not stealing." So no one asked the man to say what he was doing, but he unintentionally let it out what he was actually doing there. He just asked what the noise was, but he said: "I am not stealing." So in the same way, no one asked them to say anything about Arizona, but they let it out. Prabhupāda: They have disclosed unintentionally. That is going on. It is beyond their dream to go either to the moon planet or Mars planet. It is not possible. Not nowadays I say—I said it ten years ago. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're going to have a difficult time, with the scientists, about this moon. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're going to have a difficult time about this moon and the sun relationship. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sunday, Monday. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is a lifelong project. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Nobody could answer, a simple question. (Hari-śauri explains "Sunday, Monday" question in background) According to Vedic astronomical calculations, sun is first. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But does it have to do anything with distance, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Does it have to do anything with the distance? As the sun is recorded first? *Prabhupāda: No, according to them if sun is first, then it will be ninety*-three millions miles. And if the moon is still away, one million six hundred thousand miles, it becomes ninety-five million miles. How they are going ninety-five millions of miles in four days? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, on that ground it is reasonable to know that they couldn't go there, but . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I say they couldn't go there. Their asset is Arizona, that's all. All this propaganda has gone, and at last they wanted to satisfy by delivering some sand and rock, that's all. Actually the business was not done. Hari-śauri: They say even if there's life on another planet, at most it could be bacteria. Prabhupāda: Nonsense. If bacteria is there, why not others? Hari-śauri: Well the thing is that if they say that there's other life, then they'd have to show it. But they don't know what's there 'cause they've never been. So they have to show either there's no life and here's some rocks, which they got from this planet, or at most there's only bacteria, which they can also produce here and say it's there. But they can't show any advanced life because they don't know. Prabhupāda: They have never gone. Simply bluff. That is my point. *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: Whenever they don't know something, they say it doesn't exist. Prabhupāda: I have got evidence, our Vedic literature. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have other informations other than Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ? Prabhupāda: Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have other evidences? Prabhupāda: We have evidence from astronomy, Jyoti-śāstra. Jyoti-śāstra . *Rādhā*-vallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Manasvī is here. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Manasvī. Shall I tell him to come in? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sit down. Wherefrom you are coming? Manasvī: New Jersey, Hoboken. Prabhupāda: Where is your child? Manasvī: She's downstairs. Prabhupāda: With whom he is there? Manasvī: With her brother. Prabhupāda: So? What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the magazine I was telling you about, Transcendental Meditation Today . Prabhupāda: That is the name of the magazine? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The feature article is . . . Prabhupāda: This is our? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Big article all about our Society. Prabhupāda: Oh, my picture also. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Prabhupāda, ācārya *-founder." Tells all about you and your books. Hari-śauri: It especially mentions your books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a whole page devoted about your books. Hari-śauri: This is the dome downstairs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Hare Kṛṣṇa Meditation. Who is Kṛṣṇa?" (laughs) "The Kṛṣṇa Cut." It tells about the haircut, śikhā . (laughter) Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa cut." (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then in the back there's more articles about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There's the . . . here, "Food for the gods, prasādam ." Hari-śauri: Describes what standard we have for making the prasādam , how you can't taste it, you have to be very clean. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's that . . . remember I was telling you about that meditation on the ping*-pong balls? Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughter) Devotee: "Ganzfeld effect." They give it a name and make it sound very important, and then sell it for a thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: Who's name? Devotee (1): Ganzfeld. They say the Ganzfeld effect. Prabhupāda: Who is Ganzfeld? Somebody know? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's an article about Maharishi. (aside) You want to read it? There's some points in here, it says: "Profit without honor." This man hates Maharishi, says he's completely bogus. Prabhupāda: His picture is hateful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "Profit without any honor." He quotes you in here. Prabhupāda: What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "Swami Prabhupāda, spiritual leader of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and Bill Faill, Durban, South Africa, of the Natal Mercury Reporter , had the following dialogue—Bill Faill: Do you think that Transcendental Meditation is helping people? *Prabhupāda: They do not know what real meditation is. Their meditation is simply a farce, another cheating process by the so*-called svāmīs and yogīs . So everyone is talking about meditation, but no one knows what meditation really is. These bluffers use the word meditation, but they do not know the proper subject for meditation. They are simply talking bogus propaganda. Bill Faill: But isn't meditation helpful in getting people to think straight? Prabhupāda: No. Real meditation means to achieve a state in which the mind is saturated by God consciousness." *Prabhupāda: Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ ( SB 12.13.1). This is the Vedic version. When one man's mind is fully absorbed in the Supersoul, Viṣṇu, that is called meditation. And Bhagavad-gītā confirms: These are the Vedic version. These rascals—some light, some this, some that. *Rādhā*-vallabha: There are some quotes here from people describing Maharishi's meditation. It says: "A Denver housewife said: 'I turned off when I found that TM' " that's what they call Transcendental Meditation, " 'I turned off when I found that TM is trying to sell me meditation the same way Proctor and Gamble sells me soap.' " Prabhupāda: Gamble? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Big soap company. Hari-śauri: Proctor and Gamble manufacture all kinds of soaps and detergents, so she's saying that the way they sell Transcendental Meditation is the same as the way they sell soap. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very commercialized. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They have here proof that his mantra is no different than any ordinary sound. It says: "In a Stanford Research Institute experiment, a group of TM trainees was compared to a control group who had been taught a fake mantra that they believed would be effective. In both groups some subjects were able to bring unpleasant psychosomatic symptoms under control. Three of these dropped out of the TM training group. Their symptoms returned. Two dropped out of the control group, their symptoms came back too. Evidence like that suggests that whatever works in the TM system, it does not depend upon the mystical mantra ." Prabhupāda: Let their men come and talk with our men in a public meeting. Then people will understand what is the difference. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have a catalog, Transcendental Meditation University. It's very well done, nice colors and anything, first class. They spend a lot of money and a lot of thoughts how to bring . . . how to attract the students. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says their University's just closed down. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, the one at Iowa? Hari-śauri: No, the one in Majorca, in Spain. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is the headquarters, Iowa, the main University. We saw the catalog. It contains everything, all sciences. Hari-śauri: This article explains that when he first appeared in public, he presented himself as a Hindu representative of Śaṅkarācārya's cult, but then later on he concocted this Transcendental Meditation, and then he presented it as a science so that he could get government grants to teach it in schools and things like this. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They have another guru here, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. Prabhupāda: He has also come? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His group is big here. He's very popular in America. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Eighteen thousand disciples. He says: "It does not matter to whom one surrenders. The relevance is in the act of surrendering. But because the human mind sees things in terms of relationships, surrender to a guru is often useful. The guru is a step toward the impersonal divine, a step toward surrender to the existence." Hari-śauri: He makes a comment about sannyāsa as well, I think. *Rādhā*-vallabha: He initiates sannyāsa , they call themselves neo- sannyāsa . "At initiation a sannyāsī receives a new name, an ochre robe and a mālā , a string of beads holding a locket that frames a photograph of Bhagwan." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhagwan Rajneesh, not Bhagavān. *Rādhā*-vallabha: The one who says it's not necessary to have a spiritual master. He says: "The picture is not mine. Had it been mine I would have hesitated to put it there. The picture only appears as mine." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's word jugglery. (laughter) The picture is of himself, he says: "It is not me. If it was me I would not have put it there. It only appears to be me." Devotee (1): They want something very cheap and easy to attain. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Here's his method. First they engage in breathing. It says: "The really successful meditator sounds like an exhausted sea lion." He says: "If you feel like dancing, dance, laugh, scream, sing, express your love, your hate, your anger, your jealousy. Do not condemn what happens; do not condone it. Just go mad. Express whatever is within you totally, intensely." And here's his mantra , " Hoo hoo hoo. " That's his mantra . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were doing this in Bhopal. In Bhopal, we were there when we had our Jeeps. So in the same place we were staying they let this group Rajneesh do it. So they were going with that mantra , " Hoo hoo ." So we were standing out from the balcony shouting, "Kṛṣṇa, that's who." Every morning they would do that meditation, and we would answer "Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) Hari-śauri: They call his method "chaotic meditation." Prabhupāda: They say? Hari-śauri: That's the heading, it says "Chaotic Meditation." *Rādhā*-vallabha: That's the name of it. After they go " Hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo . . ." Prabhupāda: What about . . . what they have written about us? *Rādhā*-vallabha: About us? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A big article. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Everything is favorable. They didn't say one bad thing about us. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. The group above are performing a kīrtana , the chanting of the names of Kṛṣṇa, the Vedic Deity they believe to be the supreme personification of Godhead. They are shown before the doorway of 1 Astor Plaza in Manhattan's Times Square area. Their chant, increasingly familiar on street corners in all large cities across the country, runs, 'Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.' These Kṛṣṇa devotees belong to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, less formally known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement and still less formally to the man in the street as the Harry Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Actually, Prabhupāda, one . . . Prabhupāda: Harry Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They think that we're worshiping a person, some material man, by the name of Harry Kṛṣṇa. They think that your name is Harry Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) *Ādi*-keśava: In Boston they once wrote an article in the newspaper, the Boston Globe , they said: "I walked into the temple room and there he was, a big picture of Harry Kṛṣṇa sitting on a big throne." (laughter) On the vyāsāsana . Hari-śauri: Harry is an English . . . Prabhupāda: Harry, Harrison, like that. Devotee (1): They are saying Kṛṣṇa's name. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I read more? "There are several hundred thousand members of the movement . . . several hundred thousand members of the movement throughout the world. Ten thousand in New York City alone." Actually, there are at least ten thousand followers. "Of these, about a hundred and fifty are full*-time students and live at 340 West Fifty-fifth Street, an eleven-story former Josephine Baird Home of the Roman Catholic Carmelite Nuns." This was a nunnery, Carmelite nuns. "The Hare Kṛṣṇa center on West Fifty-fifth Street draws about five hundred lay devotees and curiosity-seekers from the metropolitan area every Sunday. Open house begins at five p.m. A great drawing card is the serving of prasādam , food specially prepared for and offered to Lord Kṛṣṇa before being distributed to the public. The eating of prasādam (see the article 'Food of the Gods' on a later page), is believed by members of the movement to convey important spiritual benefits—for example, the cleansing of karma due to past sins. Movement members are not unaware of the more immediate and mundane effect. Prasādam is our secret weapon,' said Alaṅkāra dāsa, spokesman for the center. 'It gets them in here, and then they can get the message.' Les Tursley, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, India-based senior member of the movement, has said of prasādam in his country . . ." *Rādhā*-vallabha: They think you're an Indian. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They think I'm an Indian. " 'If anyone comes around to our prasādam distribution program, that means he is hungry. If he is hungry, that means he cannot listen to our philosophy. If his hunger is not satisfied, he'll never become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the point. If we just went around with a program of speaking and kīrtana , they would come once or twice but they wouldn't see its practical value. But if you give them prasādam daily with kīrtana and speaking, eventually you can convince them, "Look, this is our most practical way of life. Why don't you come and live with us completely and work with us?" That's a quote from an article in Back to Godhead . "Though food is far more plentiful in the United States than in India, prasādam appeal seems to work its magic here just as well. The entire movement began only ten years ago in a storefront temple in Manhattan's Lower East Side. Today it owns the largest publishing house of Hindu classics, many in demand for leading university courses. The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust in Los Angeles, the world's largest, last year's gross of one million dollars; *incense*-producing Spiritual Sky Scented Products Company; *and Kṛṣṇa Fashions Incorporated, a wholesale clothing manufacturer. An important portion of the movement's income comes from the contributions of lay devotees, who are successful businessmen. More comes from street*-corner solicitation of alms by devotees during kīrtana . How significant the last is was shown recently by the closing down of elevator service in the New York center. 'A lot of us are going on pilgrimage to India,' said Alaṅkāra dāsa. 'There won't be many around to beg. These elevators cost us $2,200 a month to run. So we're cutting down except for essential services.' " We don't do that anymore. That was the previous mismanagement. Someone had the idea that if you turn off the elevator, that's very good. But I told him if you're not going to run the elevator, then why did you move here? They had people walking up eleven stories, and it was crazy, just to save . . . anyway, "These include moving foodstuffs and milk into the building. Much of the food comes from a 350-acre ISKCON-owned dairy farm in Academia, Pennsylvania, one of the six similar facilities in this country and Canada." They show pictures of devotees in the temple, devotees taking prasādam and two lady devotees. "The yoga ," it says under the captions, "monks take breakfast by hand in rows on the dining area floor." Here it says, "Saried women devotees dwell in cloister atmosphere of the center." Then "The yoga of devotion: Tilaka of clay paste marks the devotee as a member of ISKCON sect. Central shrine in the temple is the focal point of twice a day services." A picture of Rādhā-Govinda. " 'Our life is our meditation' said a śikhā -ed, saffron-clad monk in the Hare Kṛṣṇa center. 'Everything we do is offered to Śrī Kṛṣṇa, but in addition to that there is the personal chanting, most . . .' " (break) ". . . slung from the devotee's neck. He often counts the beads without taking his hand from the pouch. In the early hours the Hare Kṛṣṇa center buzzes with a droning sound, difficult to identify by the stranger who does not know that it comes from the monks, who are beginning their required sixteen rounds." They have given everything very detailed. "The personal chanting sometimes occurs in unusual situations—while escorting a visitor to the center, while waiting to complete a phone call, or even during pauses in a conversation." (laughter) Devotees are always chanting. " 'The mahāmantra is the only mantra needed' the devotee says. Besides the sixteen rounds, devotees are expected to observe four rules. They must abstain from meat-eating, intoxication, gambling and illicit sex. Illicit sex is defined as any sexual act other than that intended for procreation. Sex outside of marriage is forbidden. Married, full-time devotees may have sexual relationship once a month at a time propitious for procreation. All the devotee's activities are regarded as bhakti-yoga , the yoga of devotion. He regards everything he does as service to God. The name he is given at initiation is followed by the word dāsa , 'a servant.' Full-time ISKCON devotees adopt Vedic dress, one objective being to keep others aware of Kṛṣṇa. Women wear sārīs , the men dhotīs; *both may wear shawls. The men shave their heads except for a single lock of hair at the back. (See the article 'The Kṛṣṇa Cut.') The lock, called a śikhā , identifies the followers of Kṛṣṇa." Actually, no one can imitate us because no one wants to give up their hair, so no one will try to make believe they are devotees. "Shaving the head announces renunciation of material pleasures. The tilaka is a mark made with clay—two narrow vertical stripes on the forehead meeting in a triangular swatch on the bridge of the nose. It identifies the body as a temple to be used only in the service of God. Full*-time students follow a rigorously monastic life. They arise at four a.m. in the morning, begin four hours of prayer and chanting. At nine o'clock they have breakfast, seated cross-legged on mats on the floor. The men eat apart from the women. During the day devotees work at various preaching programs or at regular jobs. At seven p.m. devotional services are held in the center's temple. In Manhattan this features an ornate shrine including representations of Kṛṣṇa and His consort, Rādhe. Both are costumed sumptuously with elaborate care; *both wear festoons of flowers. Visitors are cautioned, 'When you go in the temple remember that these statues you see are not representations of the Deities, they are the Deities. Kṛṣṇa is in everything. Kṛṣṇa is everywhere.' Temple kīrtana ." There's a picture. "Eleven*-story New York sect's center is former Carmelite Baird home." Picture of the temple. "Services in the temple are attended by about five hundred every Sunday. Many of these are from New York's Hindu population. Frequently husbands bring their pregnant wives, dedicating their unborn child to Kṛṣṇa. The kīrtana begins with the chanting of the mahā-mantra , slowly at first and melodiously. Later the chant will speed up as the spirit of the devotion spreads. Often the most rapid and intense chanting is done by a hard-core knot of dhotī -ed men before the curtains of the shrine." The devotees get in one group and start . . . (laughter) Hard-core devotees. "The rhythm approaches that of an express train, and the atmosphere is apt to remind a lay visitor of an old-fashioned football rally. Some of the onlookers try to keep up with the central group, clapping their hands, swaying their bodies, throwing arms upwards and, among the younger, adapting modern dance steps to the rhythm. When the shrine curtains are drawn back, devotees kneel and press their foreheads . . ." Prabhupāda: Who has introduced this peculiar dancing? Hari-śauri: It just evolved. (laughs) Rūpānuga: We were speaking about that the other day. It's changed from the original dancing that you showed us to something else. Too much like the modern dancing. Prabhupāda: Hmm. I think this is not good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shall I read on, Prabhupāda? "The service has become . . ." What way should we dance, Śrīla Prabhupāda? With our hands outstretched? Sometimes the devotees like to jump around. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: In ecstasy one can do anything, that is another . . . but artificially to do something is not good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But if one feels like jumping, it is all right? Prabhupāda: Anything artificial is not required. Rūpānuga: So running back and forth is not . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, that should not be an artificial. Hari-śauri: We don't dance for show; we dance for the pleasure of the Deities. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're not professional dancers. "The service has become so frenetic that the almost folksy, matter of fact preaching of the Swami makes a stark contrast. 'Some people are against us because they say we teach children to smile. Well isn't that too bad. We make children smile—we are bad. We try to teach them that life should be a joyful thing—we're evil. Well that's too bad, isn't it? ' " Devotees: Who's that? That's crazy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is theory. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So he has not returned with the key? Hari-śauri: Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Still more? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "After the sermon, more chanting. Now it really becomes frantic, and even compelling. Many curious first*-time visitors begin to take up the mahā-mantra chant. The hard-core group at the shrine seems to be completely carried away. The terrazo floor literally vibrates. Gradually the crowd begins to thin. Other things are happening in the center. On the third floor there is a traditional Vedic play in costume, acted with enthusiasm." (sound of kīrtana ) Hari-śauri: It's going downstairs somewhere, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Ādi*-keśava: They're getting everybody together to go out on saṅkīrtana party. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "On the second floor there is a store which attracts many visitors who want to buy Indian costumes, jewelry and the movement's books. Prasādam is served in the basement restaurant. Visitors eat at tables in the same area where monks had breakfast on the floor. The prasādam features Hindu dishes served in the compartments of plasticized paper mess trays." Then it goes on. Now there's another article about you. (aside) Why are they holding a kīrtana now? *Ādi*-keśava: They're getting a kīrtana party together to go out on hari-nāma down at Times Square. (indistinct conversation among devotees) Prabhupāda: Hmm. What does he say? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Prabhupāda, ācārya -founder, born Abhay Charan De in India in 1895, the founder . . . future founder- ācārya , spiritual leader of ISKCON, came under the spiritual direction of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja, ascetic scholar and preacher who had devoted his life to the spread of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Three years later, shortly before he died, Bhaktisiddhānta ordered Abhay to spread the Kṛṣṇa faith in the English language. One of the ways that Abhay, now known as Prabhupāda—'one at whose feet masters sit'—did that was to begin to translate the classic Vedic literature, but it was not until thirty years after he was charged by his spiritual mentor that he was able to make a trip to the United States. He arrived in Boston in September 1965, a spry but grim-faced passenger of seventy years on the steamer Jaladuta . He had forty rupees in his pocket and a metal suitcase full of his books and translations. Finding his way to New York City, he set up a storefront temple at 26 Second Avenue in the East Village section. Gradually he drew a small coterie of students around him, mostly through his preaching in Tompkinson Park. As his movement grew, he found backers among his converts. Hare Kṛṣṇa centers were established in Boston, Buffalo and San Francisco, and an appreciation of Prabhupāda's Vedic translations by American university authorities, Columbia, Princeton, Yale professors among others, permitted the establishment of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust in Los Angeles. The Trust launched a promotion of Prabhupāda's translations and original works under the logo of the Living Library of Transcendental Knowledge. Remarkably, in the face of a worldwide economic recession, the Trust's book and magazine sales reached nine million in 1975, up 34.5 percent over 1974. Some of this was due to the determined promotion of groups such as the hundred-man Rādhā-Dāmodara group, which criss-crosses the country in six Greyhound-type buses and ten vans giving lectures and kīrtanas at college university campuses. Now eighty*-one years old, Prabhupāda still works at his writings and the spiritual direction of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. His translation of Bhagavad-gītā , the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is , the most widely used in the Western world, is in great demand by professors of Indology and Vedic literature." Prabhupāda: He has given advertisement for our books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Very favorable. *Rādhā*-vallabha: The amazing thing is that he's an impersonalist. Prabhupāda: Impersonalist? *Rādhā*-vallabha: The man who wrote all of these articles, he's an impersonalist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's a picture of him. Prabhupāda: Oh, he's American? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Tripurāri: He thinks there are different types of meditation that all work, and ours is one type, bona fide, that works. There are also other types. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The article goes on—I don't know if you want to hear it all. You want to hear it? Okay. Here's this thing called "Who is Kṛṣṇa?" "Kṛṣṇa, viewed by ISKCON as the supreme personification of Godhead, is said to have many pastimes in which He assumes different appearances. One such is that of Gopālajī, the cowherd boy (see picture, 'Cowherd Boy') He can appear in other forms such as four*-armed Nārāyaṇa. Most often Kṛṣṇa is portrayed as having light blue skin and, by Western standards, a soft and effeminate physique. He is said to be full in the six opulences: beauty, strength, fame, wealth, knowledge and renunciation. He is said to be all-attractive. Kṛṣṇa incarnates on one planet after another in infinite universes. The last time He appeared on earth as Kṛṣṇa was five thousand years ago. He will not return in that form for another four hundred thousand years. But five hundred years ago He appeared in His incarnation of Lord Caitanya, who taught people of the mahā-mantra and started the Kṛṣṇa consciousness in its present state. According to the Bhagavad-gītā , Kṛṣṇa hungers for the devotion of His followers." Very nicely put. "This devotion in its pure sense takes the form of bhakti-yoga , the dedication of one's every action to Kṛṣṇa. Thus to use one's sense for one's own pleasure is to deny Kṛṣṇa devotion and accumulate negative karma . Kṛṣṇa has a consort, Rādhe, but She is considered only as an extension of His own pleasure principle, since He is all things. It is through Her intercession that devotees seek favors from Kṛṣṇa. According to ISKCON, Kṛṣṇa is the same God worshiped as Jehovah, Allah and so on." That is the explanation of who Kṛṣṇa is. *Rādhā*-vallabha: He could write for Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He could write for Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: Yes, it is good. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. Then there is a part called "Hare Kṛṣṇa Meditation." "The Hare Kṛṣṇas practice bhakti , the yoga of devotion. They have their mahā*-mantra , continual recitation of which will have a meditative effect. By integrating recitation of the mantra with a life of rigidly formulated devotional activities, it would seem that devotees actually live their meditation. Such a life of living meditation is not without parallel in secular fields. It is believed that the spiritual form of alchemy served this purpose; that is, an alchemist repeated the same experimental routine over and over until it became automatized, though still requiring some slight personal involvement." He's getting a little far out here. "It was expected that the result . . ." This is material. Anyway, ". . . practitioners of Western magical disciplines sought for similar results. Meditation takes effect in terms of the ambiance in which it is practiced. In the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement there are certain to be transcendental experiences. They would be in accord with Vedic teachings, but their exact nature has not proven easy of discovery, since devotees insist that their sole aim in life is to be of service to Kṛṣṇa." We're not interested in experiencing all of these special things. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice point. Then there's a part about the Kṛṣṇa cut. Says here, "Badge. The badge of the monks is a single lock that hangs from a rear of shaven head. As a precisely trimmed śikhā is a matter of pride, monks often cooperate in shaving one another. Hair is buzzed off by clipper (left side), leaving a bristly surface (center)"—shows the bristly surface. Prabhupāda: He has taken photograph of it? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughter) Yes. ". . . which is lathered up and shaved with a safety razor (right side). Even more striking than their saffron dhotīs and shawls is the ISKCON men's practice of shaving their heads with the exception of one long lock in the rear, known as the śikhā . The first reaction of the layman is "Why do they do it?" The next is "How do they do it?" The Hare Kṛṣṇas themselves advance three different answers to the first question. Some say that in countries that have hot climates, the religious have always shaved their heads to ensure cleanliness. A clean body reflects a pure spirit." Prabhupāda: One letter should be written to him that, "You have taken so much trouble to describe Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, so thank you for your patience. Now we shall request you to read our books and review it. That will be real presentation of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Now you have studied superficially, and if you seriously study our books, you'll get more knowledge and you'll be able to give description of the movement more definitely." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to hear about what else he has to say? *Prabhupāda: Um*-hmm. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Others insist that the style of shaving the head identifies devotees of various spiritual orders. The long śikhās marks a man as a follower of Kṛṣṇa. Still another group says that the head*-shaving simply stands for renunciation of the material world, its values and its pleasures. One or more of those reasons may be the true one. Possibly all of them have a multi-determined . . . have multi-determined the Kṛṣṇa cut. The 'how' of the cut is simplicity itself. Commonly two men cut each others' hair. Our pictures show how. Phase one of the cutting, known as the buzz-off, is done with ordinary . . ." (laughter) Prabhupāda: Buzz off? (laughter) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. ". . . is done with ordinary hair clipper. The post buzz*-off effect . . ." (laughter) Rūpānuga: This guy's made a science out of it. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ". . . shown in the second picture. Next, the prickly sconce." Prabhupāda: What is that meaning? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prickly sconce. Prickly means short*-haired, and sconce means . . .? Hari-śauri: Look it up in the dictionary. (laughter) *Rādhā*-vallabha: People like to think they are scientific like this. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "The prickly sconce is lathered up with an old*-fashioned mug and brush and shaved with a safety razor. It is considered of paramount importance that the base of the śikhā be shaved round evenly. The shavee sometimes shows some nervousness about this." He gets nervous that they'll cut his śikhā off. This man has caught every detail. Prabhupāda: Good writer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's a good one. Hari-śauri: It says "Sconce: crown of head." It's an old term for the crown of the head. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a special article about prasādam , Prabhupāda, called "Food for the Gods." "Of all the ways of getting to heaven, or nirvāṇa , or whatever your ideal place may be, the Hare Kṛṣṇa way is one of the most pleasant. Believers of this faith are convinced that you can eat your way into higher spiritual realms. Of course, this doesn't mean that food itself is sacred and the more you eat the holier you are. To begin with, there is a strict prohibition against the killing of animals, so meat, fish and eggs are not included in the diet at all of the Kṛṣṇa devotees. Furthermore, there are many special rules for preparing the food which may be offered to Kṛṣṇa to be blessed by Him and therefore to bring blessings to anyone who partakes of it." Should I read this whole article? *Prabhupāda: Um*-hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "The recipes given below, taken from the Hare Kṛṣṇa Cookbook"—another good advertisement, and they give you at least three or four recipes in here. They give recipes for, the recipes are for . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, he has given more pages for our movement. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, he's given us three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve pages. And the whole magazine, including many advertisements . . . actually the nonadvertised part is about fifty*-five pages, of which we have twelve. At least one fifth of the book is for Hare Kṛṣṇa. The other groups only have three pages, four pages. And he blasts them mostly. Some of them are really nonsense. Here's one called the Deichmann Experiment. You stare at a vase . . . Prabhupāda: Another meditation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, this is another one, Deichmann Experiment. Then they have one about Zen Buddhism, it shows Zen meditation. Here's a Zen master sitting in front of a basketball. I don't know why. *Ādi*-keśava: They have a meditation they call Zen basketball. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Ādi*-keśava: We went to one seminar once when they were teaching Zen basketball. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's another one, "Hypnotism or Meditation?" "A hypnotist discusses a question that many face." Because they accuse that we're hypnotizing, so they're trying to distinguish in this article what is hypnotism, what is meditation. Then here's another one, "The Art of Awareness." This woman is supposed to be a great transcendental artist. You can see some of her famous pictures. Here's a picture called "Congregations of Souls." And here's another picture called "Temple Stones." Then this is the Ganzfeld Effect. (laughter) Ping*-pong balls. Says here, "The apparently pop-eyed lady is not a visitor from another dimension nor the victim of a sudden surprise. She is the subject of an experiment into the nature of meditation and some of the effects of the processes. The ping-pong ball halves present a completely continuous visual field. There's no object in it that can hold her attention. After staring at the insides of the ping-pong balls for a while, she will begin to feel peaceful and . . ." Prabhupāda: Actually she does? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, that's the meditation. They put the ping*-pong ball, and then it describes, "She will feel peaceful and serene. At the same time she may not be able to tell whether her eyes are open or closed. She will see neither white nor black nor any shade in between. She will have the experience of not seeing. At that point, which the subject in this kind . . ." Prabhupāda: With the eyes closed, then not seeing is there already. (laughter) What is the use of meditating? *Hari-śauri: You aren't going to see very much with two ping*-pong balls over your eyes, are you? (laughter) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "The white hemispheres covering her eyes are halves of ping*-pong balls. The wires lead off to an electroencephalograph, E.E.G. It keeps a record of changes in her brainwave output. At that point when she is not seeing, which subjects in this kind of experiment call 'blanking out,' the electroencephalograph will record a brainwave output well into the alpha range." They also tell you how to make the Ganzfeld, how to cut the . . . it shows a ping-pong ball and a knife. (laughter) This guy is weird. Hari-śauri: This thing about alpha range, this is becoming a big thing. They think that if a person gets into this alpha range of brain stimulation, then his meditation is successful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're trying to figure it all out scientifically. *Ādi*-keśava: They're trying to use all kinds of machines and wires to measure consciousness. They have one group that has tin cans attached to wires, and they hold them in their hand, and then they measure it on the machine as they meditate. And when they meditate right, the needle on the machine goes right in the middle, and they think they have achieved perfection. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here is an article called "Travels Beyond the Body: What is it that travels, and what is it that's seen?" They're talking about traveling beyond your body. Here's an advertisement, "Because I have taken the mystery out of transcendental meditation, I will teach you to master transcendental meditation in a single evening." "About the author." Then it says: "Free private mantra based on your own name, selected by the great Norbell, translated by his special Sanskrit system, so that no one else in America has the same mantra twice. No other system of transcendental meditation . . ." Prabhupāda: What is this? Maharishi? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Maharishi Yogi? Hari-śauri: No, this is competition. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, this isn't . . . Hari-śauri: This is the competition. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This man says: "Norbell, for over thirty years his unrelenting thirst for spiritual fulfillment has taken him to the most remote corners of the globe to finally become one of the few Westerners in our time who has ever gained acceptance as an equal among the holy masters of both India and Tibet. He has also mastered the scientific secrets of Western knowledge in America's most highly regarded universities. In America alone over the past decades, tens of thousands have come to Carnegie Hall in New York and dozens of other centers of public hearing all to hear him." He says: "Meditation can make this claim alone, and it's yours to keep. Your own mantra free, even if you return the report itself. Mail this coupon at no risk today. 'Gentlemen, please rush me a copy of Norbell's five minute de*-mystified transcendental meditation.' " (laughter) De-mystified, taking the mystery out. "Confidential report. 'I enclose nine dollars and ninety-eight cents in full payment. I understand that I may examine this confidential report for thirty days at your risk or money back. Also send me my own private mantra , specially selected for me by Master Norbell and mine absolutely free, even if I return the report, with every cent of my money back.' " It says here—these are the benefits of the mantra —one of the benefits is, it says here, one of the benefits, "and as an extra benefit of such heightened personal magnetism, a simple shift in the focus of your daily meditations can give you great new sexual and romantic powers, new joys in love." Devotee (1): They're all cheaters. It's just another con. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's another group called Arika. This Arika costs three thousand dollars, this process. They charge three thousand dollars for a ninety*-day course. *Ādi*-keśava: Part of their whole meditation is they have cocktail parties. They drink liquor and they meet and they have these therapy, and they charge him money to go to a cocktail party and call it yoga . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, it's got a good article about us. You want to keep it to show guests who come, the article? Prabhupāda: No. (laughter) Hari-śauri: Anyone who reads that magazine will immediately become attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there's no comparison. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's got the best article I've ever seen, though, about us, in great detail. It really reports the details. Prabhupāda: Hmm. This is also good article. (break) Hmm! Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa, where is the key? Key? Distribute this prasādam . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can see how he's cooking very . . . he's the most expert I've ever seen, and he knows these special preparations. He can cook many varieties of kachorī . (end) (Evening Darsana) Prabhupāda: "I take away as death." Whatever they are accumulating, everything will be taken away at the time of death . . . (indistinct) . . . they are simply collecting, accumulating, discovering—forgetting that everything will be taken away at the time of death. Discover something which can check death, there will be no more death. That is real discovery. What do you think? Indian man (1): Well, it's a question to think about. Prabhupāda: Because whatever we are discovering, it will be taken away by death. So discover something which will stop death. And that is real discovery. Indian man (1): But don't you think it will be a bad thing, because there are some bad people in the world like, let's say, Hitler and Stalin and others, they may be the first people to use the technology to prolong their life? Prabhupāda: The thing is, bad or good, everyone will be taken away by death. Is it not a fact? Hitler is no longer existing, neither Stalin nor Gandhi. Gandhi was supposed to be very good man. He's also taken by death, and Hitler is also taken by death. And Stalin also taken. And I'll also, you will be also. So death will take away everyone. There is no doubt about it. Therefore discover something which will stop death. That is real discovery. *Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Which is the most important chapter of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: Every word is important. Guest (1): Every word. Devotee: Jaya . *Prabhupāda: Every word. Beginning from dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ ( BG 1.1), every word. Guest (1): Every one. *Bali*-mardana: Every word. Guest (1): Every word. *Prabhupāda: And that will give you guidance. Read Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, word for word. But don't misinterpret and spoil. The rascals misinterpret and spoil the whole Bhagavad-gītā . That is the difficulty. You cannot misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā . Then it will be spoiled. If you take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, you are benefited. And if you misinterpret, then you spoil. So generally they misinterpret. Everyone speaks on Bhagavad-gītā , but he misinterprets. Guest (1): You've made it very clear, Prabhupāda. I want to thank you for that. I like your purports as much as Kṛṣṇa's actual words, because now I can understand it. *Prabhupāda: Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . Otherwise, for the last so many years—I am speaking in Western countries—so many svāmīs , so many yogīs come, they speak on Bhagavad-gītā but misinterpret. So not a single devotee was there. And now Bhagavad-gītā is presented as it is, and so many devotees are coming. Guest (1): Now we can understand it. *Prabhupāda: You could understand long ago, but difficulty is we accept this misinterpretation, spoiled understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . Just like this gentleman was speaking he did not like Kṛṣṇa, he told me. He told me just now. *Bali*-mardana: He did not like Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: They'll read Bhagavad*-gītā , and they'll not like Kṛṣṇa. This is their reading of Bhagavad-gītā . Indian man (2): They don't want to read it yet. *Prabhupāda: Aiyee, idhar aiyee. (Come, come here.) Now all Indians, they should take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and make their life fruitful. The Europeans and Americans, they are taking. Why Indians are not taking? *Indian lady: Is it because the Indians think that they know much about Bhagavad*-gītā ? Being born a Hindu, they might think they know the religion, but not very much. They are not Kṛṣṇa conscious at all. Prabhupāda: Just see. He knows everything, he does not know Kṛṣṇa? How he knows everything if he does not know Kṛṣṇa? If you think that you know everything, then you must know Kṛṣṇa. But if you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then what do you know? Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply know Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything. And if you know everything and you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then you are rascal, that's all. Mūḍha . That is the test. If you know everything but do not know Kṛṣṇa, then you are a rascal. And if you know Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything automatically. Indian lady: I think they think they know it, but I'm sure they are not aware of it. Prabhupāda: If they know Kṛṣṇa, why they do not come to the Kṛṣṇa's temple? Indian man (2): Quite a number of them come here. I remember the days when I used to be the only Indian in the temple, seven, eight years ago. Prabhupāda: Even though they are not coming, they should now come, and we can open many other temples if you come. We can maintain many other temples. You come and take advantage of it. Why you are losing your own culture? That is foolishness. You are Indians, and you do not know Kṛṣṇa. That is not a very good credit. Indian man (2): Remember when we were building our altar? Remember last year when I talked to you? We were building altar, and virtually I went to every Indian, and myself and the president of that temple, we begged everything we can do possible. And we wanted to collect almost ten thousand dollars. We couldn't even collect five thousand dollars, and most of them were making between fifteen and twenty thousand dollars. Some of them in fact gave us pennies. Prabhupāda: Just see. *Indian man (2): And they took us one Bhagavad*-gītā . We gave them Bhagavad-gītā and they gave us some pennies. *Bali*-mardana: Not a very good trade. (laughter) Prabhupāda: This is not good report. *Bali*-mardana: Praghoṣa, he gets at least ten dollars in lakṣmī . Indian man (2): It's difficult to collect money from the Indians. That is my experience, and I . . . *Bali*-mardana: Because they are thinking of rupees, not dollars. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That means they do not like Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (2): I don't know. Somehow or other, I myself am totally confused about Indian community in this country. I have no comments to make, but I found out that they are the least charitable community among all communities. I lived in Canada almost ten years, and I found out other communities are very charitable. Even if you go to other community, at least they will give something, but Indians, no. Prabhupāda: Aiye na. Please come. Every Indian should come to the temple and become a devotee. Indian man (1): I think more and more people are really coming to the temple and becoming part of it, as I think most of the devotees around here know, in the last few years. Everybody I know of . . . Prabhupāda: "More and more coming" means not all are coming. (laughter) Indian man (1): All of them would be the most desirable thing. Prabhupāda: What is the objection? Indian man (1): There are so many other temples. Hindu temple, Sindhu temple . . . there's organization of community of Indians, they are trying to develop their own. *Prabhupāda: There is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity? Indian lady: Yes. Indian man (1): There is *Gītā* temple, there's a Sindhi temple. Prabhupāda: Without Kṛṣṇa? *Gītā* without Kṛṣṇa? Indian man (1): It is a temple, everybody facing their back towards Kṛṣṇa and chanting about what was happening in the town. *Bali*-mardana: They have Kṛṣṇa mūrti , but when he went there everyone had their back to the mūrti . Indian man (1): And they were chanting . . . not chanting, talking about what was going on in the town. *Bali*-mardana: Social. For social reasons. Prabhupāda: That means they do not know Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (1): But here you can only talk about Kṛṣṇa, so they don't want to come. Indian man (2): If you want to talk to them about Kṛṣṇa you'll lose a friend. Right away. So either make friends with Kṛṣṇa, or make friends with that guy. Prabhupāda: That is not very good. That means they have fallen from their culture. They have lost their culture. Indian man (1): Some of them in fact enjoy eating hot dogs and hamburgers. They said: "Oh, I have been eating vegetables for ages. Now I have come here to eat hot dogs and hamburgers." That is their comment. They have done totally . . . Prabhupāda: What is this hot dog? Hari-śauri: It's meat, sausage. Guest: Together with other poisons. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Made from cows. (break) Prabhupāda: (referring to guests leaving) Some prasādam? Oh, they have taken prasādam . Indian man (2): Want something to eat? Hari-śauri: Feast prasādam . *Bali*-mardana: Someone is making them some little prasāda ? Hari-śauri: There is some prasādam to distribute. *Prabhupāda: Khoob khaiye aur aap log ko to chahiye Kṛṣṇa prasadam sikhana, ye bechare to jante hi nahin, Krishna ko chod diya to kaun sikhayega. Kyon aplog Kṛṣṇa ko chod diya. (Have lots of prasadam and you must learn how to prepare Kṛṣṇa prasadam , these people don't know — they have forgotten Kṛṣṇa so who will teach them. Why did you people leave Kṛṣṇa?) And they talk of Bhagavad*-gītā and keeping Kṛṣṇa background? Somebody says? *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Mostly they don't even talk of Bhagavad-gītā , they talk about social, but Kṛṣṇa they keep to your back. They have named the place Gītā Mandira, Gītā Temple. But they do not discuss Gītā . Just for show. *Prabhupāda: That is the disease. Even Mahatma Gandhi, he was talking of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad*-gītā , but throughout his whole life he never established a temple of Kṛṣṇa, although his photograph you'll find with Bhagavad-gītā . This is the calamity. *Indian man (1): In the last days Mahatma Gandhi kept saying rāma rāma, rāma*-nāma is the only way chanting . . . one of his article he says: "There is no other cure but to chant the name of the Lord." *Prabhupāda: Mahatma Gandhi would have preached Bhagavad*-gītā , the world would have taken very seriously, because he was respectable. *Bali*-mardana: You wrote him to preach Bhagavad-gītā . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Jo kuch ho gaya ho gaya ab to aap sab pardesh me hain khoob Bhagavat*-Gita ka prachar kijiye aur samajhiye sab kuch hai. (Whatever has happened is past now. You all are in a foreign land. Do extensive preaching and publicity of Bhagavad-gītā and understand everything is there.) The four things Kṛṣṇa wants, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). He charges four thing: to think of Kṛṣṇa, to become His devotee, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, mad-yājī . . . find out this verse. Here is Bhagavad-gītā . Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru . Hari-śauri: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." *Prabhupāda: Charges four things, He wants: to always think of Him, become His devotee, worship Him, mad*-yājī , and offer obeisances unto Him. Therefore this temple is there. These four things can be done even by the child. So why don't you do it? And the guarantee is that if anyone does like that, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Every one of you should come to the temple, always think of the Deity, and if possible chant His holy name and offer Him some worship and obeisances. That will make you perfect. New York is such a big city, there are so many Indians, they should come. Where is the difficulty, to become a thinker of Kṛṣṇa, always thinking, man-manā ? The Deity is there. As soon as you come, you get some impression of the Deity. So if you think of the Deity, where is the difficulty? Koi difficulty hai. (Is there any difficulty?) Can anyone say that there is difficulty in thinking of Kṛṣṇa? And as soon as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become a devotee—immediately. And as soon as you become a devotee, you'll offer something for worship. And at the end of worship, you offer your obeisances. There is no need of education or Vedānta knowledge. Vedānta knowledge means this: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. Anyone can do. And practically see, these foreigners, ten years, five years ago they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and because they are following this man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ , they are now advanced devotees. So why Indians are lacking? Hmm? What is the objection? Guest (1): Simply our hearts are caked with dust. Prabhupāda: Therefore we shall keep it dusty. If our heart is full of dust, cleanse it. That is intelligence. What is this, "My heart is dirty. Let it be kept as dirty"? No, if it is dirty, cleanse it. It is the duty of every Indian to understand Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to others. That is real Indian business. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that every one of you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to others who are unaware of Kṛṣṇa. That is the injunction; *that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said, bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41): "Anyone who has taken birth in India as a human being"—not as dogs; *manuṣya, manuṣya means human—"his duty is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach to the other people for welfare activities." Bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra . We should mark this point, manuṣya-janma . He's not requesting the cats and dogs. So in other words, that those who are not taking, Indians . . . Bhagavad-gītā is known to everyone; *every Indian knows. But if he does not preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he is not to be counted as human being. Because He says, manuṣya*-janma haila yāra . If we claim to be human being, born in India, it is our duty to understand the value of life from Bhagavad-gītā and preach this cult to others to do real welfare activities. This is the duty of every Indian. Why Indians are lacking in their duty? They do not understand Kṛṣṇa and they do not understand how to do good to others. Now whatever is done is done. It is time, now that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is here, the temple is here, you come, you understand the whole philosophy and distribute. That is your duty. In New York City we can open many temples, provided you come. Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how does it feel to be back in New York again? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest (1): How does it feel to be back in New York? Prabhupāda: Yes, I feel very much pleased, because I came here alone, without any shelter. I was loitering on the street. Guest (1): Ten years ago, wasn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes, 1965. Then in 1966 I established this institution in a storefront on the Second Avenue. That is the beginning. I never thought we shall be able to possess such a big building. Guest (1): You've done so much in that short time. Prabhupāda: I have not done, Kṛṣṇa has done. Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has helped you to do it. *Prabhupāda: That I was speaking, that if we become sincere to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa can give us all opportunities. He's all*-powerful; *He can do that. (aside) Those who are going, give them. Those who are going, you can give one. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. Do you read all these verses, those who are reading Bhagavad*-gītā ? Guest (1): Just in progress. Prabhupāda: This verse is very important. *Every one of you is reading our Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is ? Guests: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is there any question about? *Guest (1): Is there any question about Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: No, as you are reading Bhagavad*-gītā , is there any doubt, question? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to know if anyone has questions. *Prabhupāda: There is nothing doubtful, everything is very plain. But we, by our rascaldom, we make it doubt, by our rascal interpretation. Everyone can understand. Just like dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). The Kurukṣetra is dharma-kṣetra . Still Kurukṣetra is there in India, and it is dharma-kṣetre . People go there for performing religious ritualistic ceremonies. So where is the difficulty to understand? And five thousand years ago the Kurus and Pāṇḍavas, they assembled there for fighting—that is clearly stated, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Who were they? Māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva: "My sons and the sons of Pāṇḍu," Kuru-Pāṇḍava. So where is the difficulty to understand? But by misinterpretation they'll write volumes of books and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. This business should be stopped. Then we will be benefited. Everyone is misinterpreting. Is it not a fact they are misinterpreting? What do you think? Devotee (1): So many intelligent people, they are going to Transcendental Meditation simply because it's costing money. They want to pay. My sister, her husband, they are intelligent people, but they are simply being misled . . . *Prabhupāda: So intelligent that they cannot understand Bhagavad*-gītā . What kind of intelligence is that, the plain thing in the Bhagavad-gītā , they cannot understand? Devotee (1): Very bad intelligence. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). *Prabhupāda: Yes. So*-called intelligent, they are not intelligent. They have lost their sense by the influence of māyā . Even big, big men, they say that Kṛṣṇa, this Kṛṣṇa is not God. "The God Kṛṣṇa is different" and so on, so on. Hmm? Do they not say like that? *Indian man (3): : I wanted to ask you a question. While talking to some of the European people, when we say that Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that asked him to fight, kill his own relatives and friends and not to bother about the consequences of the action. Now this statement sometimes is difficult for people of the West to understand, where they say before you do any action you should know the consequences and then only take action . . . *Prabhupāda: That is the only statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? There is no other statement? Indian man (3): : There is, but . . . Prabhupāda: So you have captured that only. Indian man (3): : Not I . . . Prabhupāda: You're talking of that. Indian man (3): : I'm talking discussion. In a discussion it's difficult to convince people of the West what is the answer to that. *Prabhupāda: But if you know Kṛṣṇa, that He is God, then whatever He speaks, it is all right. Just like Arjuna, he accepted Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). So he said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). Find out this verse. So "Whatever You say, I accept it as truth." That is understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . If you have understood Bhagavad-gītā , then you should have understood that whatever Kṛṣṇa has said, that is truth. Read that. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Translation. Hari-śauri: "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me." *Prabhupāda: That's all. That is understanding. Arjuna is not a fool. He said: "Whatever You have said, I accept them as truth." That is real understanding. And as soon as you make amendment, that you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan vadasi keśava . There are so many rascals, they think, "I don't believe in this, I don't believe in that." That is not understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . Indian man (3): : Does it mean that before we, or anybody, before he at all . . . *Prabhupāda: Before he, if . . . first of all he must know what is Kṛṣṇa. Then he will understand. That what is Kṛṣṇa, that he will understand from Bhagavad*-gītā by this beginning. And at the end Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Lord. So if you know that Kṛṣṇa is Supreme Lord, then whatever He says is correct. Indian man (3): : That means the first thing is to accept Kṛṣṇa as God, and then . . . Prabhupāda: Not blindly. Indian man (3): : Not blindly. Prabhupāda: Not blindly. But you must know . . . just like if you accept the government, and the government orders, "This man should be hanged," you have to accept it. You cannot protest that, "The government has ordered this man should be hanged. It should be protested." And who will care for your protest? Government is government. You cannot criticize. You may criticize on account of your less intelligence, but government order is all. Is it not? If government orders that, "This man should be hanged," can you say anything against it? It will not be accepted. Similarly, if you know that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, then as Arjuna said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram (BG 10.12). Unless you understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's personality, you will try to weight the strength of His words, the value of His words. But if you understand other statement . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "I am the supreme authority." So if He is the supreme authority, then whatever He has said, it is all right. But if you have doubt about His supreme authority, then you will find out His fault. That is the defect. So if Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the supreme authority . . ." If you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority, then you will understand that whatever He has said, that is absolute. Now if we become doubtful, that is on account of our less intelligence. Why you are questioning this, that Kṛṣṇa . . . what you are question? Indian man (3): : I said that, as an Indian, suppose I try to speak about *Gītā* or philosophy of Hinduism to people in the neighborhood, either in the office or elsewhere, especially with the Europeans, it becomes a point for discussion where it becomes difficult to convince as to why a person should take action without knowing the consequences or even with knowing that the consequences are going to be bad. For instance, Arjuna had to kill his relatives. If he knows that he's going to do it, or if somebody, for instance, in a war, he knows that his friends are on the other side, he may find it hard to shoot at them . . . Prabhupāda: So why Arjuna did later on? Indian man (3): : Because I think he took God's . . . *Prabhupāda: Because he was fool in the beginning, and after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā he became intelligent. Why don't you take in that way? In the beginning, he was rascal. Therefore he needed instruction of Bhagavad-gītā . And when he understood Bhagavad-gītā , what did he say? Hmm? Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā . (aside) Find out this verse. Naṣṭo mohaḥ , "Now my illusion is over." Smṛtir labdhā tvat prasādān madhusūdana . Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: Sthito 'smi gata*-sandehaḥ : "Now all my doubts are over. Now I shall kill." Why did you not say this to your European audience? Indian man (3): : Because I don't know the *Gītā* myself that good. *Prabhupāda: Then why do you preach? Then first of all know, then preach. If you did not know, you should not preach. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). First of all make your life perfect, then try to make others perfect. Don't cheat others. So when Arjuna actually became intelligent, he said, sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . This is understanding. "Yes, now I am situated in my proper understanding, I shall carry out Your order." Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard on one lecture tape, you mentioned your Guru Mahārāja has said that in the morning he had to beat the mind into submission. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): How can we do this? Prabhupāda: Practice this. Your mind, when he says something hodgepodge, just beat him with shoes, just to bring him in order. Here is the real understanding, that: *This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Whether you are prepared to act according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, then your life is successful. Otherwise you are in darkness. So as Arjuna, he was in the darkness . . . he's kṣatriya . The fight was arranged between the two sections of the family, Pāṇḍavas and Kurus, and when he was to fight actually with his family members, he became bewildered that, "Kṛṣṇa, what is this? I'll have to kill my family members." So then he became His disciple that, "I am kṣatriya , it is my duty to fight. Now I am hesitating." Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ (BG 2.7). "I'm just deviating from my duty, so Kṛṣṇa, I accept You as my guru; *kindly give me instruction." So that Bhagavad*-gītā was given instruction . . . (break) He agreed, "Yes, now my illusion is over, I shall fight." This is understanding of Bhagavad-gītā . If you follow Arjuna as he understood, then your understanding of Bhagavad-gītā is perfect. If you do not understand, then you have not understood what is Kṛṣṇa's speaking and what is Bhagavad-gītā . Yes? *Indian man (4): Swāmījī, in Bhagavad*-gītā we can see that Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna that, "I will not fight for you, but I'll only drive your chariot." Why He refused to fight? Why He didn't fight? Prabhupāda: That is, because it was fight amongst the family members. So He was also related with the Kuru family. His aunt, Kuntī . . . Kuntī was married to the Pāṇḍavas. So the family members may not think that He's partial, so He divided Himself into two: His soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. And Arjuna and Duryodhana were present, requesting Him to take their side. So Kṛṣṇa said that, "We are all family members, so I divide Myself into two—My soldiers and Myself. So if you want, you take Me or My soldiers, as you like, but if you take Me, I say I'll not fight." So Duryodhana thought that, "Kṛṣṇa will not fight, and He's prepared to give me soldiers," he took the soldiers, and Arjuna said: "No, I want You." So this was the division. So in the beginning He said that, "Even if I go to one side, I'll not fight." So how He could fight? Not that He was not a fighter, but because He promised that, "The side which will accept, I'll not fight." But He did not say that, "I'll not give you instruction of fighting." That is Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Indian man (3): : He took the chariot wheel when Bhīṣma pitāmaha was coming to Arjuna. Is that a fight? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another instance, that for His devotee He can break His promise also. That is Kṛṣṇa. Arjuna . . . Duryodhana complained to Bhīṣmadeva that, "My dear grandfather, because you have affection for Arjuna and others, you are not fighting properly according to your strength." So at that time Bhīṣma saw that, "This man is doubting about my sincerity." So he wanted to show his power, so he said: "All right." He knew everything—he was a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa—so he promised to Duryodhana that "Tomorrow I shall fight in such a way that either Arjuna will die or Kṛṣṇa will have to break His promise." So he fought in such a way that Arjuna was practically vanquished. At that time, Kṛṣṇa took the wheel of the chariot and came before him that, "Bhīṣma, you stop this fight, otherwise I'll kill you." So Bhīṣma said: "Yes, I am stopping my fight, because You have broken Your promise, that's all." This is the dealing between God and His devotee. There is competition of devotional service. There are so many things. But on the whole, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, the supreme authority. His instruction is final, and anyone who can understand this, his life is successful. Therefore our request is that don't make unnecessary useless interpretation. You take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and act accordingly, your life will be successful. This is our mission. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But if you cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā , we can try to explain before you what it is. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (2): There are many svāmīs coming from India nowadays, and they are trying to establish, some of them like Gaṇapati temples or the Lord Śiva temples and so forth, and trying to confuse Westerners, especially Americans, because most of them, they do come to America. Being Indian, how we can help about this confusion? *Prabhupāda: You take Bhagavad*-gītā as standard. Who is the Hindu or Indian there who can refuse the authority of Bhagavad-gītā ? So you present them Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then it will not happen. I don't think any Indian or any Hindu can deny the authority of Bhagavad-gītā . Is there anyone? Devotee: No. *Prabhupāda: Then you present them. That is, I have taken, that this is the summum bonum of Indian culture, Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā is accepted all over the world as the greatest book of knowledge, so take this standard and preach, and people will be enlightened, without misinterpretation. *Guest: Here's a svāmī, Swami Krishna*-prema Idavatakar from Gorakhpur Vinodiya from Calcutta. Indian lady: Swāmījī, I made this for you. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. Very nice. He has come here? Let him come. Indian lady: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Indian man (5): Swāmī? I have one question which is widely discussed everywhere, that eating of meat is sin. Now we see that while for our survival, while walking, while working we kill so many things, knowingly or unknowingly, is it not sin, that? Prabhupāda: (to Svāmī guest) Aiye, aiye swami. (Come, come Swamiji.) Give him an āsana . Aiye. (Come.) Jaya . Kab aye idhar aap. Idhar hi rehte hain kya? (When did you come here? You are staying here only?) What is that question? Just try to understand. *Devotee (2): Why is meat*-eating sin? *Hari-śauri: He said he can understand meat*-eating is sin, but when we are doing our ordinary work and normal functions, aren't we killing so many other things? So is that sin or not? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also sin. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that whatever you eat, bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). Anyone who is cooking something, meat or vegetables, for his own eating, he is eating only sin. It is not that the vegetarians are not sinful and the meat-eaters are sinful. Everyone is sinful if it is not cooked for Kṛṣṇa. It is not that we are propagating that you become vegetarian. We are propagating that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our propaganda. But because we are trying to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, we offer something to Kṛṣṇa. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So not patraṁ puṣpam , whatever within this group available—fruits, flowers, grains, milk—so we offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña . Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). If you do not perform yajña , then you will be bound up by the resultant action. So this is yajña , to offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña means to satisfy Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-ārādhyate . Yajña means satisfy Kṛṣṇa. But if you don't Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , then you are sinful. Not that if you become vegetarian, then you are not sinful. Not that. Because you have to eat something. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam . Either you eat vegetable or meat, you have to eat something. So somebody prefers eating animals and somebody prefers eating vegetables, but all of them have got life. Therefore you cannot kill any life. So if you eat for yourself, then you are simply eating sin. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt . But if you take Kṛṣṇa prasādam , then if there is any sin, it goes to Kṛṣṇa, you take pure prasādam . And Kṛṣṇa is apāpa-vidham . So our duty is to worship Kṛṣṇa and offer Him so many nice things—fruits, flowers, grains, milk, milk preparation. We are doing that. You are taking prasādam . So that is our business. Is it clear, your answer? Indian man (5): Yes. *Prabhupāda: We are interested in eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam . If Kṛṣṇa says: "Give Me meat," we shall give Him. But He does not say. He says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Meat*-eating is sinful, that's a fact, amedha, tāmasika , but if you remain in the darkness of ignorance, you cannot improve your spiritual life. Tāmasika . It is described in the Bhagavad-gītā , rājasika, tāmasika, sāttvika . Therefore we should eat sāttvika , and that is also after offering to Kṛṣṇa. Then we are free from all sinful reactions. And if you want to implicate yourself in sinful activities, then you can eat whatever you like. But either you eat meat or vegetables, if it is eaten for my satisfaction of the tongue, you become implicated in sinful activities, and you have to suffer the reaction. The animal you are killing, he'll kill also you next life. Then you become bound up. Indian man (6): I have one question. Though there is mention, in earlier times, we see also used to eat meat. Prabhupāda: When? *Indian man (6): Aśvamedha*-yajña , all these things, and before that . . . Prabhupāda: That is now prohibited. *If you refer to śāstra , the śāstra says in Kali*-yuga these should be avoided. Guest: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I believe that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. *Prabhupāda: At that time, when there was aśvamedha*-yajña, gomedha-yajña , that was not for eating. That was to prove the strength of Vedic mantra , how the animal was put in the fire and again gave him a new life. So where is that Vedic chanter, Vedic brāhmaṇa, yajñika brāhmaṇa ? There is no such things, powerful brāhmaṇa . Therefore it is to be avoided. And that was not for eating purpose. To put one old animal in the fire and again he comes back with new life, that was the purpose. This question was raised by Chand Kazi to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu challenged him that, "What is this your religion, you are killing your father and mother?" So he referred to this, that in . . . "Formerly they were sacrificing cows in Your śāstra ." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained that sacrifice was not meant for eating. That was meant for renovating new life. That is not for eating. Indian man (6): Another question comes. Why . . . how the caste system has crippled our society so much, was accepted by . . . *Prabhupāda: Wrongly, wrongly. Kṛṣṇa says, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So according to quality and work. That is fact. If you have got engineering qualification and if you can work as engineer, people will call you engineer- sāhīb . Is it not? So there may be a class of engineer, but that depends on quality and work. But if you have no quality, no work, how you become engineer? If you have no qualification of becoming an engineer, and you do not work, you work as a clerk, and if somebody addresses you "Engineer- sāhīb ," he is a fool, you are a fool. (laughter) So if he's not a brāhmaṇa , if you call him a brāhmaṇa , then you are fool and he is also fool. So that is going on, fool's paradise. A rascal who is not in qualification in brāhmaṇa , if he's addressed and given honor of a brāhmaṇa , he sees, "Oh, for nothing I am getting this honor, that's right, very nice." And who is giving him honor as brāhmaṇa , he's also rascal. But it is not that. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth. One must acquire the quality of a brāhmaṇa : satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42) He must be truthful, he must be self-restrained, self-controlled, full of knowledge, very simple. All these qualifications, when he acquires, then he becomes a brāhmaṇa . Indian man (6): No, even in *Rāmāyaṇa* and *Mahābhārata* we find this kind of . . . Ekalavya was discriminated, Karṇa was discriminated . . . Prabhupāda: Because he was not accustomed to the practice of brāhmaṇa . One must be brāhmaṇa by practice. That is wanted. Indian man (6): This is kind of discrimination though. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man (6): This is kind of discrimination though. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Never mind if he's born in low-grade family, but he's eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . Do you mean to say unless one becomes a first-class brāhmaṇa he can go back to home, back to Godhead? No, that is not possible. So, kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ śudhyanti (SB 2.4.18). The purificatory process . . . just like these Europeans, Americans, they are being recognized as brāhmaṇas because they are pure devotees. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He says, kṛṣṇa-bhajane nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra (CC Antya 4.67). Kṛṣṇa-bhajane , if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no such discrimination, even if you make that. Because as soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become the best Brāhmiṇ . That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He immediately becomes on the brahmam platform. And brāhmaṇa means one who knows Brahman . Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇa . So every devotee, if he's purely engaged in devotional service, he's more than brāhmaṇa . And so-called brāhmaṇa , without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is not recognized. Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syād vaiṣṇavaḥ śva-paco guruḥ (Padma Purāṇa). If a dog-eater, caṇḍāla , he has become a Vaiṣṇava, he can be guru . But a brāhmaṇa , ṣaṭ-karma-nipuṇo vipro mantra-tantra-viśāradaḥ, avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt . If he's expert, Vedic chanting and everything, mantra-tantra-viśārada , but if he's not a Vaiṣṇava, he cannot become guru . So according to our Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . that is actually according to Vedic injunction. If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you become more than a brāhmaṇa . Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and then your life is successful. And Kṛṣṇa is being distributed by Lord Kṛṣṇa. Not only He's giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema , kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ (CC Madhya 19.53). Caitanya Mahāprabhu is so kind, merciful, He's not only giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema , which is very, very rare. Aap idhar kahan tehre hain? udhar koi mandir hai? Chaliye kuch prachar to ho raha hai. Kṛṣṇa bhakti Gītā Press vishesh prachar kar rahi hai. To kaise kam chal raha hai. Teen-char mahine rahiyega idhar. Hamara jo program hai vo to aplog manenge nahi. Dekhiye na ye sab angrez log mast mundan kiya, tilak lagaya. Ye hum apko bolenge to aap bigad jayenge. Ye to hamara padatti ipehle hai mast mundan karo, tilak lagao. (Where are you staying here? Is there any temple there? Okay, at least some preaching is going on. Kṛṣṇa devotion, Gītā Press is doing special publicity. So how is the work going on? Will you stay for 3 to 4 months here? The program, what we have is not agreeable to you? Look at these foreigners, they are so happy with shaved heads, applying tilak on their forehead. If I tell you this you will get upset. This is our practice, to become shaved head and apply tilak .) Indian man (4): Prabhupāda? Buddha was the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, right? Then why he has preached the impersonal form of God? *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . (aside) You have got Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam here? Yes. Find out that, when Lord Buddha appeared, that verse. Sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). His propaganda was to cheat the atheist class of men. Atheist class of men, they did not recognize existence of God, so He became one of them. Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam . This atheist class, they were killing animals in the name of yajña like anything. So yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7), so He came as Buddha to stop this animal killing. His real business was stop the animal killing, that these rascals are going to hell in the name of religion, so at least stop their activities of animal killing. So therefore he started the mission, ahiṁsā paramo dharma , "Don't kill animals." But in the Vedas there is recommendation, in the yajña , as you were saying, that there is . . . animal killing is recommended. So people presented that, "Here is animal killing recommended in the yajña ." Therefore he denied the authority of Vedas . Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam . So this Buddha incarnation is cheating the atheist class of men. He said that, "Don't kill animals. If you are killed you feel pain. Why you should kill animals?" That was his mission, to stop animal killing, sinful activities. So what was your question? Indian man (4): I just asked why he has preached impersonal form of God. Prabhupāda: Yes, because they were all godless, so he said: "There is no God, but you stop this animal killing." That was his mission. And he said, "There is no God, but whatever I say, you accept." So they agreed. But he is God. That is cheating. (laughter) Superficially he said there is no God, but he is God. Somehow or other, if people stop animal killing and accept Lord Buddha, then he becomes at least one step forward to God realization. So in a cheating process he made good to others. Yes? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Prabhupāda: Translation. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Then in the beginning of Kali*-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Añjanā, in the province of Gayā, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theists." Prabhupāda: To delude them. Read the purport. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, appeared in the province of Gayā (Bihar) as the son of Añjanā, and he preached his own conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned in the Vedas . At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and animal killing was indulged in unrestrictedly. Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse psychological effects incurred by animal killing. Less intelligent men of the age of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time being they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps for proceeding further on the path of God realization. He deluded the atheists because such atheists who followed his principles did not believe in God, but they kept their absolute faith in Lord Buddha, who himself was the incarnation of God. Thus the faithless people were made to believe in God in the form of Lord Buddha. That was the mercy of Lord Buddha: he made the faithless faithful to him. Killing of animals before the advent of Lord Buddha was the most prominent feature of the society. They claimed that these were Vedic sacrifices. When the Vedas were not accepted through the authoritative disciplic succession, the casual readers of the Vedas are misled by the flowery language of that system of knowledge. In the Bhagavad*-gītā a comment has been made on such foolish scholars. The foolish scholars of Vedic literature who do not care to receive the transcendental message through the transcendental realized sources of disciplic succession are sure to be bewildered. To them, the ritualistic ceremonies are considered to be all in all. They have no depth of knowledge. *"According to the Bhagavad*-gītā , the whole system of the Vedas is to lead one gradually to the path of the Supreme Lord. The whole theme of Vedic literature is to know the Supreme Lord, the individual soul, the cosmic situation and the relations between all these items. When the relation is known, the relative function begins, and as a result of such a function the ultimate goal of life of going back to Godhead takes place in the easiest manner. Unfortunately, unauthorized scholars of the Vedas become captivated by the purificatory ceremonies only, and natural progress is checked thereby. To such bewildered persons of atheistic propensity, Lord Buddha is the emblem of theism. He therefore first of all wanted to check the habit of animal killing. The animal killers are dangerous elements on the path of going back to Godhead. There are two types of animal killers. The soul is also sometimes called the animal, or the living being. Therefore both the slaughterers of animals as well as those who have lost their identity of the soul are animal killers. Mahārāja Parīkṣit said that only the animal killer cannot relish the transcendental message of the Supreme Lord. Therefore if people are to be educated on the path of Godhead, they must be taught first and foremost to stop the process of animal killing as above mentioned. It is nonsensical to say that animal killing has nothing to do with spiritual realization. By this dangerous theory many so-called sannyāsīs have sprung up by the grace of Kali-yuga to preach animal killing under the garb of the Vedas ." Prabhupāda: Now there are so many rascals in this dress of sannyāsī , they are eating meat. That is going on. They say: "What is the wrong of eating meat? We can eat." They eat meat. Then? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "The subject matter has already been discussed in the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Maulana Chand Kazi Saheb. The animal sacrifice as stated in the *Vedas* is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse." Prabhupāda: There, your question. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Because the asuras , or the so*-called scholars of Vedic . . ." *Prabhupāda: Now you were referring to the Vedic principle, but that does not mean you have to open slaughterhouse. But these rascals are opening slaughterhouse. Do you think it is Vedic principle? Suppose it is recommended that animals should be sacrificed in the Vedic ritualistic ceremony. Does it mean that you shall open regular slaughterhouse? Just as the Christians say that Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they are right in opening big, big slaughterhouse? Maybe Lord Jesus Christ ate fish in some awkward circumstances, but that does not mean that he is recommending to open slaughterhouse. In the Ten Commandments he says: "Thou shall not kill." When there is absolute necessity, there is no other food, that is another thing, but if there is sufficient other foodstuff, why should you kill? They are not even human being, those who are animal killers. Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Those who are animal killers, they are not even human being, what to speak of religious system. Nivṛtta*-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt ka uttamaśloka . . . (SB 10.1.4). If you are animal killer, your God consciousness is finished. You'll never be able to understand what is God. Then your life is finished. This life is meant for understanding God, and if you are animal killer, then your God understanding is finished. Guest (1): May I ask a question, Prabhupāda? Something that I've wondered about, perhaps you could explain it briefly. I believe that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme God, so don't get me wrong, but since you mentioned Christ, was he an incarnation of Kṛṣṇa? Was Jesus Christ sent here by Kṛṣṇa from . . . Prabhupāda: No, he says that he is son of God—that is accepted. Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa was Christ's father then. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is father, and Christ is the son. Guest (1): I understand it now. I just wondered. I wanted to hear . . . Prabhupāda: He came, "I am son of God." Yes. Guest (1): And when he spoke of his father in heaven, he was speaking of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is. Yes. Guest (1): I understand. It all fits together now. Indian man (7): Swāmījī, how could you convince then these Christian people that Christ was the son of God, or Kṛṣṇa was the . . . Prabhupāda: Christ says himself that "I am the son of God." (laughter) Indian man (7): Many Christians, they do not . . . Prabhupāda: Many Christians also . . . there are so many Christian editions. That is another thing. *Bali*-mardana: We have accepted. Prabhupāda: But all these Christians, they all my students, they are coming from Christian. How they accept Kṛṣṇa as the father? Guest (1): Prabhupāda, did Christ return to the spiritual planets then, when he left the earth, to be with Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: He is coming from spiritual planets. He is authorized representative of Kṛṣṇa. We accept him as śaktyāveśa*-avatāra . So I was invited in some priestly meeting in Melbourne, they asked me the question, "What is your opinion of Christ?" So I said: "He's our guru ." (laughter) Actually, we accept him as our guru . He's preaching God's message, he's Vaiṣṇava. Anyone who accepts God, he's Vaiṣṇava. He was explaining kingdom of God, God. So according to time, circumstances, audience . . . now we can just imagine what kind of people he had to deal with, that his commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." Then understand how much they were accustomed to killing. So what kind of men they were? And not only that, in spite of hearing his instruction, "Thou shall not kill," they killed him first. So what kind of men they were, just imagine. He said: "Thou shall not kill," and they decided, "We shall kill you first." So this class of men he had to deal with. Guest (1): What would happen to the people that killed Christ on the cross? Very bad, it seems. Prabhupāda: Christ cannot be killed, but they killed themselves. Devotee (3): So we read that Christ said: "I and my father are one," so they say therefore Christ is Kṛṣṇa, so therefore Kṛṣṇa can't be God. *Prabhupāda: "One" means in quality. And in the Vedic literature we say ahaṁ brahmāsmi . That means we are one in quality. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā . So now we are material bhūtaḥ, jīva-bhūtaḥ . When we realize that, "I am not this body. I am spirit soul, I am part and parcel of God," that is brahma-bhūtaḥ . Then bhakti begins. Then he enters into Vaikuṇṭha, after Brahman realization. So Lord Buddha's finished? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No. Prabhupāda: Go on, finish it. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse. Because the asuras or the so*-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward the evidence of animal killing in the Vedas , Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas . This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted in order . . ." *Prabhupāda: Just like you said that in the Vedas there is animal killing, therefore . . . (break) That was not killing. So instead of wasting his time, he said: "I don't care for your Vedas . It is my order that you stop if you love me." Here is the same . . . you cannot open slaughterhouse giving reference to the Vedas , or any sacrifice either. The Jews and everyone, the Muhammadans, they also make sacrifice. One day in the year they sacrifice. It's not that they recommend open a slaughterhouse. This is all nonsense, rākṣasa . That sacrifice also recommended in this sense, that you cannot stop animal killing. There will be a class of men who will eat meat—to give them some concession. So this is recommended, "All right, if you want to eat meat, you sacrifice." Amongst the Hindus, just like Kālī*-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā, the animal eaters, they are given this concession that, "If you want to eat meat, you just worship Goddess Kālī," and this Goddess Kālī–worshiping is recommended on the amāvasyā , the dark moon night, one day in a month, at the dead of night. So if one goes on eating meat in this way, one day in a month and dead of night, then he'll automatically give it up, "So much botheration, better give it up." Actually deny. "Yes, you can eat once in a month at the dead of night, when everyone will sleep, nobody can hear the screaming of the animal . . ." These are the recommendations. That is indirectly denying. If one is intelligent, he'll accept it, "Why so much botheration for eating meat? Better give it up." Indian man (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are so many gurus preaching Buddhism . . . Prabhupāda: We are not talking of so many gurus; *we are talking of real guru , that's all, real guru . Real guru is he who talks in disciplic succession of Kṛṣṇa. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). That is guru . The bhumi-phala guru is no guru . Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt . Anyone who is not Vaiṣṇava, he's not guru . First, He says in the Bhagavad-gītā , Bhagavān, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Find out this. He is guru who is preaching what Kṛṣṇa has taught. He's guru . Not that anyone and everyone becomes a guru . No. If you want to be cheated by such rascal guru , that is your business, but who is guru , that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . Anyone who preaches the teachings of Kṛṣṇa, he is guru . Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "You become a guru on My order." "How shall I become guru ? I have no knowledge." Oh, you don't require any knowledge to manufacture. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, you become guru ." Everyone can become. The instruction is there. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). We say the same thing. Not that "I have become Kṛṣṇa, not . . ." We say: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Then you become guru . Kṛṣṇa's instruction; *not to become Kṛṣṇa. If you want to become Kṛṣṇa, then you are not guru , you are cheater. Suppose you are working for master. If you say: "My master has fixed up this price, you cannot change it," then you are honest salesman. And if you place yourself that, "I am the master," then you are cheater. The cheater cannot be teacher. Teacher is he who simply teaches what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. He is teacher. That is not difficult. Anyone can do it. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Whomever you meet, you simply speak to him the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Then you become guru ." And if you don't say that, if you manufacture your own words, then you are cheater, you are not teacher. The so-called gurus , they're cheater. They want to become Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are cheater. And it is very easy thing if you cheat people, that "You take this mantra and you become God." Is God so easy thing to become God? But they want to be cheated. "Purchasing mantra , I shall become God." They want to be cheated. They do not think that, "Whether I can actually become God?" They do not take the weight of His existence. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . So, what is the time now? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eight o'clock, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Prasādam . (to Swāmī) What is that book? *Swami Krishna*-prema: (indistinct) . . . '67 . . . (indistinct) . . . with three disciples, Prabhupāda: Ācchā . *Swami Krishna*-prema: . . . Bombay to Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Ah. (end) (Evening Darsana) Prabhupāda: "I take away as death." Whatever they are accumulating, everything will be taken away at the time of death . . . (indistinct) . . . they are simply collecting, accumulating, discovering—forgetting that everything will be taken away at the time of death. Discover something which can check death, there will be no more death. That is real discovery. What do you think? Indian man (1): Well, it's a question to think about. Prabhupāda: Because whatever we are discovering, it will be taken away by death. So discover something which will stop death. And that is real discovery. Indian man (1): But don't you think it will be a bad thing, because there are some bad people in the world like, let's say, Hitler and Stalin and others, they may be the first people to use the technology to prolong their life? Prabhupāda: The thing is, bad or good, everyone will be taken away by death. Is it not a fact? Hitler is no longer existing, neither Stalin nor Gandhi. Gandhi was supposed to be very good man. He's also taken by death, and Hitler is also taken by death. And Stalin also taken. And I'll also, you will be also. So death will take away everyone. There is no doubt about it. Therefore discover something which will stop death. That is real discovery. *Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Which is the most important chapter of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: Every word is important. Guest (1): Every word. Devotee: Jaya . *Prabhupāda: Every word. Beginning from dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ ( BG 1.1), every word. Guest (1): Every one. *Bali*-mardana: Every word. Guest (1): Every word. *Prabhupāda: And that will give you guidance. Read Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, word for word. But don't misinterpret and spoil. The rascals misinterpret and spoil the whole Bhagavad-gītā . That is the difficulty. You cannot misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā . Then it will be spoiled. If you take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, you are benefited. And if you misinterpret, then you spoil. So generally they misinterpret. Everyone speaks on Bhagavad-gītā , but he misinterprets. Guest (1): You've made it very clear, Prabhupāda. I want to thank you for that. I like your purports as much as Kṛṣṇa's actual words, because now I can understand it. *Prabhupāda: Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . Otherwise, for the last so many years—I am speaking in Western countries—so many svāmīs , so many yogīs come, they speak on Bhagavad-gītā but misinterpret. So not a single devotee was there. And now Bhagavad-gītā is presented as it is, and so many devotees are coming. Guest (1): Now we can understand it. *Prabhupāda: You could understand long ago, but difficulty is we accept this misinterpretation, spoiled understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . Just like this gentleman was speaking he did not like Kṛṣṇa, he told me. He told me just now. *Bali*-mardana: He did not like Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: They'll read Bhagavad*-gītā , and they'll not like Kṛṣṇa. This is their reading of Bhagavad-gītā . Indian man (2): They don't want to read it yet. *Prabhupāda: Aiyee, idhar aiyee. (Come, come here.) Now all Indians, they should take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and make their life fruitful. The Europeans and Americans, they are taking. Why Indians are not taking? *Indian lady: Is it because the Indians think that they know much about Bhagavad*-gītā ? Being born a Hindu, they might think they know the religion, but not very much. They are not Kṛṣṇa conscious at all. Prabhupāda: Just see. He knows everything, he does not know Kṛṣṇa? How he knows everything if he does not know Kṛṣṇa? If you think that you know everything, then you must know Kṛṣṇa. But if you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then what do you know? Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply know Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything. And if you know everything and you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then you are rascal, that's all. Mūḍha . That is the test. If you know everything but do not know Kṛṣṇa, then you are a rascal. And if you know Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything automatically. Indian lady: I think they think they know it, but I'm sure they are not aware of it. Prabhupāda: If they know Kṛṣṇa, why they do not come to the Kṛṣṇa's temple? Indian man (2): Quite a number of them come here. I remember the days when I used to be the only Indian in the temple, seven, eight years ago. Prabhupāda: Even though they are not coming, they should now come, and we can open many other temples if you come. We can maintain many other temples. You come and take advantage of it. Why you are losing your own culture? That is foolishness. You are Indians, and you do not know Kṛṣṇa. That is not a very good credit. Indian man (2): Remember when we were building our altar? Remember last year when I talked to you? We were building altar, and virtually I went to every Indian, and myself and the president of that temple, we begged everything we can do possible. And we wanted to collect almost ten thousand dollars. We couldn't even collect five thousand dollars, and most of them were making between fifteen and twenty thousand dollars. Some of them in fact gave us pennies. Prabhupāda: Just see. *Indian man (2): And they took us one Bhagavad*-gītā . We gave them Bhagavad-gītā and they gave us some pennies. *Bali*-mardana: Not a very good trade. (laughter) Prabhupāda: This is not good report. *Bali*-mardana: Praghoṣa, he gets at least ten dollars in lakṣmī . Indian man (2): It's difficult to collect money from the Indians. That is my experience, and I . . . *Bali*-mardana: Because they are thinking of rupees, not dollars. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That means they do not like Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (2): I don't know. Somehow or other, I myself am totally confused about Indian community in this country. I have no comments to make, but I found out that they are the least charitable community among all communities. I lived in Canada almost ten years, and I found out other communities are very charitable. Even if you go to other community, at least they will give something, but Indians, no. Prabhupāda: Aiye na. Please come. Every Indian should come to the temple and become a devotee. Indian man (1): I think more and more people are really coming to the temple and becoming part of it, as I think most of the devotees around here know, in the last few years. Everybody I know of . . . Prabhupāda: "More and more coming" means not all are coming. (laughter) Indian man (1): All of them would be the most desirable thing. Prabhupāda: What is the objection? Indian man (1): There are so many other temples. Hindu temple, Sindhu temple . . . there's organization of community of Indians, they are trying to develop their own. *Prabhupāda: There is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity? Indian lady: Yes. Indian man (1): There is *Gītā* temple, there's a Sindhi temple. Prabhupāda: Without Kṛṣṇa? *Gītā* without Kṛṣṇa? Indian man (1): It is a temple, everybody facing their back towards Kṛṣṇa and chanting about what was happening in the town. *Bali*-mardana: They have Kṛṣṇa mūrti , but when he went there everyone had their back to the mūrti . Indian man (1): And they were chanting . . . not chanting, talking about what was going on in the town. *Bali*-mardana: Social. For social reasons. Prabhupāda: That means they do not know Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (1): But here you can only talk about Kṛṣṇa, so they don't want to come. Indian man (2): If you want to talk to them about Kṛṣṇa you'll lose a friend. Right away. So either make friends with Kṛṣṇa, or make friends with that guy. Prabhupāda: That is not very good. That means they have fallen from their culture. They have lost their culture. Indian man (1): Some of them in fact enjoy eating hot dogs and hamburgers. They said: "Oh, I have been eating vegetables for ages. Now I have come here to eat hot dogs and hamburgers." That is their comment. They have done totally . . . Prabhupāda: What is this hot dog? Hari-śauri: It's meat, sausage. Guest: Together with other poisons. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Made from cows. (break) Prabhupāda: (referring to guests leaving) Some prasādam? Oh, they have taken prasādam . Indian man (2): Want something to eat? Hari-śauri: Feast prasādam . *Bali*-mardana: Someone is making them some little prasāda ? Hari-śauri: There is some prasādam to distribute. *Prabhupāda: Khoob khaiye aur aap log ko to chahiye Kṛṣṇa prasadam sikhana, ye bechare to jante hi nahin, Krishna ko chod diya to kaun sikhayega. Kyon aplog Kṛṣṇa ko chod diya. (Have lots of prasadam and you must learn how to prepare Kṛṣṇa prasadam , these people don't know — they have forgotten Kṛṣṇa so who will teach them. Why did you people leave Kṛṣṇa?) And they talk of Bhagavad*-gītā and keeping Kṛṣṇa background? Somebody says? *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Mostly they don't even talk of Bhagavad-gītā , they talk about social, but Kṛṣṇa they keep to your back. They have named the place Gītā Mandira, Gītā Temple. But they do not discuss Gītā . Just for show. *Prabhupāda: That is the disease. Even Mahatma Gandhi, he was talking of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad*-gītā , but throughout his whole life he never established a temple of Kṛṣṇa, although his photograph you'll find with Bhagavad-gītā . This is the calamity. *Indian man (1): In the last days Mahatma Gandhi kept saying rāma rāma, rāma*-nāma is the only way chanting . . . one of his article he says: "There is no other cure but to chant the name of the Lord." *Prabhupāda: Mahatma Gandhi would have preached Bhagavad*-gītā , the world would have taken very seriously, because he was respectable. *Bali*-mardana: You wrote him to preach Bhagavad-gītā . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Jo kuch ho gaya ho gaya ab to aap sab pardesh me hain khoob Bhagavat*-Gita ka prachar kijiye aur samajhiye sab kuch hai. (Whatever has happened is past now. You all are in a foreign land. Do extensive preaching and publicity of Bhagavad-gītā and understand everything is there.) The four things Kṛṣṇa wants, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). He charges four thing: to think of Kṛṣṇa, to become His devotee, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, mad-yājī . . . find out this verse. Here is Bhagavad-gītā . Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru . Hari-śauri: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." *Prabhupāda: Charges four things, He wants: to always think of Him, become His devotee, worship Him, mad*-yājī , and offer obeisances unto Him. Therefore this temple is there. These four things can be done even by the child. So why don't you do it? And the guarantee is that if anyone does like that, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Every one of you should come to the temple, always think of the Deity, and if possible chant His holy name and offer Him some worship and obeisances. That will make you perfect. New York is such a big city, there are so many Indians, they should come. Where is the difficulty, to become a thinker of Kṛṣṇa, always thinking, man-manā ? The Deity is there. As soon as you come, you get some impression of the Deity. So if you think of the Deity, where is the difficulty? Koi difficulty hai. (Is there any difficulty?) Can anyone say that there is difficulty in thinking of Kṛṣṇa? And as soon as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become a devotee—immediately. And as soon as you become a devotee, you'll offer something for worship. And at the end of worship, you offer your obeisances. There is no need of education or Vedānta knowledge. Vedānta knowledge means this: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. Anyone can do. And practically see, these foreigners, ten years, five years ago they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and because they are following this man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ , they are now advanced devotees. So why Indians are lacking? Hmm? What is the objection? Guest (1): Simply our hearts are caked with dust. Prabhupāda: Therefore we shall keep it dusty. If our heart is full of dust, cleanse it. That is intelligence. What is this, "My heart is dirty. Let it be kept as dirty"? No, if it is dirty, cleanse it. It is the duty of every Indian to understand Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to others. That is real Indian business. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that every one of you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to others who are unaware of Kṛṣṇa. That is the injunction; *that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said, bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41): "Anyone who has taken birth in India as a human being"—not as dogs; *manuṣya, manuṣya means human—"his duty is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach to the other people for welfare activities." Bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra . We should mark this point, manuṣya-janma . He's not requesting the cats and dogs. So in other words, that those who are not taking, Indians . . . Bhagavad-gītā is known to everyone; *every Indian knows. But if he does not preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he is not to be counted as human being. Because He says, manuṣya*-janma haila yāra . If we claim to be human being, born in India, it is our duty to understand the value of life from Bhagavad-gītā and preach this cult to others to do real welfare activities. This is the duty of every Indian. Why Indians are lacking in their duty? They do not understand Kṛṣṇa and they do not understand how to do good to others. Now whatever is done is done. It is time, now that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is here, the temple is here, you come, you understand the whole philosophy and distribute. That is your duty. In New York City we can open many temples, provided you come. Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how does it feel to be back in New York again? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest (1): How does it feel to be back in New York? Prabhupāda: Yes, I feel very much pleased, because I came here alone, without any shelter. I was loitering on the street. Guest (1): Ten years ago, wasn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes, 1965. Then in 1966 I established this institution in a storefront on the Second Avenue. That is the beginning. I never thought we shall be able to possess such a big building. Guest (1): You've done so much in that short time. Prabhupāda: I have not done, Kṛṣṇa has done. Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has helped you to do it. *Prabhupāda: That I was speaking, that if we become sincere to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa can give us all opportunities. He's all*-powerful; *He can do that. (aside) Those who are going, give them. Those who are going, you can give one. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. Do you read all these verses, those who are reading Bhagavad*-gītā ? Guest (1): Just in progress. Prabhupāda: This verse is very important. *Every one of you is reading our Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is ? Guests: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is there any question about? *Guest (1): Is there any question about Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: No, as you are reading Bhagavad*-gītā , is there any doubt, question? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to know if anyone has questions. *Prabhupāda: There is nothing doubtful, everything is very plain. But we, by our rascaldom, we make it doubt, by our rascal interpretation. Everyone can understand. Just like dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). The Kurukṣetra is dharma-kṣetra . Still Kurukṣetra is there in India, and it is dharma-kṣetre . People go there for performing religious ritualistic ceremonies. So where is the difficulty to understand? And five thousand years ago the Kurus and Pāṇḍavas, they assembled there for fighting—that is clearly stated, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Who were they? Māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva: "My sons and the sons of Pāṇḍu," Kuru-Pāṇḍava. So where is the difficulty to understand? But by misinterpretation they'll write volumes of books and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. This business should be stopped. Then we will be benefited. Everyone is misinterpreting. Is it not a fact they are misinterpreting? What do you think? Devotee (1): So many intelligent people, they are going to Transcendental Meditation simply because it's costing money. They want to pay. My sister, her husband, they are intelligent people, but they are simply being misled . . . *Prabhupāda: So intelligent that they cannot understand Bhagavad*-gītā . What kind of intelligence is that, the plain thing in the Bhagavad-gītā , they cannot understand? Devotee (1): Very bad intelligence. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). *Prabhupāda: Yes. So*-called intelligent, they are not intelligent. They have lost their sense by the influence of māyā . Even big, big men, they say that Kṛṣṇa, this Kṛṣṇa is not God. "The God Kṛṣṇa is different" and so on, so on. Hmm? Do they not say like that? *Indian man (3): : I wanted to ask you a question. While talking to some of the European people, when we say that Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that asked him to fight, kill his own relatives and friends and not to bother about the consequences of the action. Now this statement sometimes is difficult for people of the West to understand, where they say before you do any action you should know the consequences and then only take action . . . *Prabhupāda: That is the only statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? There is no other statement? Indian man (3): : There is, but . . . Prabhupāda: So you have captured that only. Indian man (3): : Not I . . . Prabhupāda: You're talking of that. Indian man (3): : I'm talking discussion. In a discussion it's difficult to convince people of the West what is the answer to that. *Prabhupāda: But if you know Kṛṣṇa, that He is God, then whatever He speaks, it is all right. Just like Arjuna, he accepted Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). So he said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). Find out this verse. So "Whatever You say, I accept it as truth." That is understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . If you have understood Bhagavad-gītā , then you should have understood that whatever Kṛṣṇa has said, that is truth. Read that. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Translation. Hari-śauri: "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me." *Prabhupāda: That's all. That is understanding. Arjuna is not a fool. He said: "Whatever You have said, I accept them as truth." That is real understanding. And as soon as you make amendment, that you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan vadasi keśava . There are so many rascals, they think, "I don't believe in this, I don't believe in that." That is not understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . Indian man (3): : Does it mean that before we, or anybody, before he at all . . . *Prabhupāda: Before he, if . . . first of all he must know what is Kṛṣṇa. Then he will understand. That what is Kṛṣṇa, that he will understand from Bhagavad*-gītā by this beginning. And at the end Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Lord. So if you know that Kṛṣṇa is Supreme Lord, then whatever He says is correct. Indian man (3): : That means the first thing is to accept Kṛṣṇa as God, and then . . . Prabhupāda: Not blindly. Indian man (3): : Not blindly. Prabhupāda: Not blindly. But you must know . . . just like if you accept the government, and the government orders, "This man should be hanged," you have to accept it. You cannot protest that, "The government has ordered this man should be hanged. It should be protested." And who will care for your protest? Government is government. You cannot criticize. You may criticize on account of your less intelligence, but government order is all. Is it not? If government orders that, "This man should be hanged," can you say anything against it? It will not be accepted. Similarly, if you know that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, then as Arjuna said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram (BG 10.12). Unless you understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's personality, you will try to weight the strength of His words, the value of His words. But if you understand other statement . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "I am the supreme authority." So if He is the supreme authority, then whatever He has said, it is all right. But if you have doubt about His supreme authority, then you will find out His fault. That is the defect. So if Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the supreme authority . . ." If you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority, then you will understand that whatever He has said, that is absolute. Now if we become doubtful, that is on account of our less intelligence. Why you are questioning this, that Kṛṣṇa . . . what you are question? Indian man (3): : I said that, as an Indian, suppose I try to speak about *Gītā* or philosophy of Hinduism to people in the neighborhood, either in the office or elsewhere, especially with the Europeans, it becomes a point for discussion where it becomes difficult to convince as to why a person should take action without knowing the consequences or even with knowing that the consequences are going to be bad. For instance, Arjuna had to kill his relatives. If he knows that he's going to do it, or if somebody, for instance, in a war, he knows that his friends are on the other side, he may find it hard to shoot at them . . . Prabhupāda: So why Arjuna did later on? Indian man (3): : Because I think he took God's . . . *Prabhupāda: Because he was fool in the beginning, and after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā he became intelligent. Why don't you take in that way? In the beginning, he was rascal. Therefore he needed instruction of Bhagavad-gītā . And when he understood Bhagavad-gītā , what did he say? Hmm? Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā . (aside) Find out this verse. Naṣṭo mohaḥ , "Now my illusion is over." Smṛtir labdhā tvat prasādān madhusūdana . Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: Sthito 'smi gata*-sandehaḥ : "Now all my doubts are over. Now I shall kill." Why did you not say this to your European audience? Indian man (3): : Because I don't know the *Gītā* myself that good. *Prabhupāda: Then why do you preach? Then first of all know, then preach. If you did not know, you should not preach. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). First of all make your life perfect, then try to make others perfect. Don't cheat others. So when Arjuna actually became intelligent, he said, sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . This is understanding. "Yes, now I am situated in my proper understanding, I shall carry out Your order." Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard on one lecture tape, you mentioned your Guru Mahārāja has said that in the morning he had to beat the mind into submission. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): How can we do this? Prabhupāda: Practice this. Your mind, when he says something hodgepodge, just beat him with shoes, just to bring him in order. Here is the real understanding, that: *This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Whether you are prepared to act according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, then your life is successful. Otherwise you are in darkness. So as Arjuna, he was in the darkness . . . he's kṣatriya . The fight was arranged between the two sections of the family, Pāṇḍavas and Kurus, and when he was to fight actually with his family members, he became bewildered that, "Kṛṣṇa, what is this? I'll have to kill my family members." So then he became His disciple that, "I am kṣatriya , it is my duty to fight. Now I am hesitating." Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ (BG 2.7). "I'm just deviating from my duty, so Kṛṣṇa, I accept You as my guru; *kindly give me instruction." So that Bhagavad*-gītā was given instruction . . . (break) He agreed, "Yes, now my illusion is over, I shall fight." This is understanding of Bhagavad-gītā . If you follow Arjuna as he understood, then your understanding of Bhagavad-gītā is perfect. If you do not understand, then you have not understood what is Kṛṣṇa's speaking and what is Bhagavad-gītā . Yes? *Indian man (4): Swāmījī, in Bhagavad*-gītā we can see that Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna that, "I will not fight for you, but I'll only drive your chariot." Why He refused to fight? Why He didn't fight? Prabhupāda: That is, because it was fight amongst the family members. So He was also related with the Kuru family. His aunt, Kuntī . . . Kuntī was married to the Pāṇḍavas. So the family members may not think that He's partial, so He divided Himself into two: His soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. And Arjuna and Duryodhana were present, requesting Him to take their side. So Kṛṣṇa said that, "We are all family members, so I divide Myself into two—My soldiers and Myself. So if you want, you take Me or My soldiers, as you like, but if you take Me, I say I'll not fight." So Duryodhana thought that, "Kṛṣṇa will not fight, and He's prepared to give me soldiers," he took the soldiers, and Arjuna said: "No, I want You." So this was the division. So in the beginning He said that, "Even if I go to one side, I'll not fight." So how He could fight? Not that He was not a fighter, but because He promised that, "The side which will accept, I'll not fight." But He did not say that, "I'll not give you instruction of fighting." That is Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Indian man (3): : He took the chariot wheel when Bhīṣma pitāmaha was coming to Arjuna. Is that a fight? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another instance, that for His devotee He can break His promise also. That is Kṛṣṇa. Arjuna . . . Duryodhana complained to Bhīṣmadeva that, "My dear grandfather, because you have affection for Arjuna and others, you are not fighting properly according to your strength." So at that time Bhīṣma saw that, "This man is doubting about my sincerity." So he wanted to show his power, so he said: "All right." He knew everything—he was a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa—so he promised to Duryodhana that "Tomorrow I shall fight in such a way that either Arjuna will die or Kṛṣṇa will have to break His promise." So he fought in such a way that Arjuna was practically vanquished. At that time, Kṛṣṇa took the wheel of the chariot and came before him that, "Bhīṣma, you stop this fight, otherwise I'll kill you." So Bhīṣma said: "Yes, I am stopping my fight, because You have broken Your promise, that's all." This is the dealing between God and His devotee. There is competition of devotional service. There are so many things. But on the whole, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, the supreme authority. His instruction is final, and anyone who can understand this, his life is successful. Therefore our request is that don't make unnecessary useless interpretation. You take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and act accordingly, your life will be successful. This is our mission. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But if you cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā , we can try to explain before you what it is. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (2): There are many svāmīs coming from India nowadays, and they are trying to establish, some of them like Gaṇapati temples or the Lord Śiva temples and so forth, and trying to confuse Westerners, especially Americans, because most of them, they do come to America. Being Indian, how we can help about this confusion? *Prabhupāda: You take Bhagavad*-gītā as standard. Who is the Hindu or Indian there who can refuse the authority of Bhagavad-gītā ? So you present them Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then it will not happen. I don't think any Indian or any Hindu can deny the authority of Bhagavad-gītā . Is there anyone? Devotee: No. *Prabhupāda: Then you present them. That is, I have taken, that this is the summum bonum of Indian culture, Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā is accepted all over the world as the greatest book of knowledge, so take this standard and preach, and people will be enlightened, without misinterpretation. *Guest: Here's a svāmī, Swami Krishna*-prema Idavatakar from Gorakhpur Vinodiya from Calcutta. Indian lady: Swāmījī, I made this for you. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. Very nice. He has come here? Let him come. Indian lady: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Indian man (5): Swāmī? I have one question which is widely discussed everywhere, that eating of meat is sin. Now we see that while for our survival, while walking, while working we kill so many things, knowingly or unknowingly, is it not sin, that? Prabhupāda: (to Svāmī guest) Aiye, aiye swami. (Come, come Swamiji.) Give him an āsana . Aiye. (Come.) Jaya . Kab aye idhar aap. Idhar hi rehte hain kya? (When did you come here? You are staying here only?) What is that question? Just try to understand. *Devotee (2): Why is meat*-eating sin? *Hari-śauri: He said he can understand meat*-eating is sin, but when we are doing our ordinary work and normal functions, aren't we killing so many other things? So is that sin or not? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also sin. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that whatever you eat, bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). Anyone who is cooking something, meat or vegetables, for his own eating, he is eating only sin. It is not that the vegetarians are not sinful and the meat-eaters are sinful. Everyone is sinful if it is not cooked for Kṛṣṇa. It is not that we are propagating that you become vegetarian. We are propagating that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our propaganda. But because we are trying to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, we offer something to Kṛṣṇa. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So not patraṁ puṣpam , whatever within this group available—fruits, flowers, grains, milk—so we offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña . Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). If you do not perform yajña , then you will be bound up by the resultant action. So this is yajña , to offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña means to satisfy Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-ārādhyate . Yajña means satisfy Kṛṣṇa. But if you don't Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , then you are sinful. Not that if you become vegetarian, then you are not sinful. Not that. Because you have to eat something. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam . Either you eat vegetable or meat, you have to eat something. So somebody prefers eating animals and somebody prefers eating vegetables, but all of them have got life. Therefore you cannot kill any life. So if you eat for yourself, then you are simply eating sin. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt . But if you take Kṛṣṇa prasādam , then if there is any sin, it goes to Kṛṣṇa, you take pure prasādam . And Kṛṣṇa is apāpa-vidham . So our duty is to worship Kṛṣṇa and offer Him so many nice things—fruits, flowers, grains, milk, milk preparation. We are doing that. You are taking prasādam . So that is our business. Is it clear, your answer? Indian man (5): Yes. *Prabhupāda: We are interested in eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam . If Kṛṣṇa says: "Give Me meat," we shall give Him. But He does not say. He says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Meat*-eating is sinful, that's a fact, amedha, tāmasika , but if you remain in the darkness of ignorance, you cannot improve your spiritual life. Tāmasika . It is described in the Bhagavad-gītā , rājasika, tāmasika, sāttvika . Therefore we should eat sāttvika , and that is also after offering to Kṛṣṇa. Then we are free from all sinful reactions. And if you want to implicate yourself in sinful activities, then you can eat whatever you like. But either you eat meat or vegetables, if it is eaten for my satisfaction of the tongue, you become implicated in sinful activities, and you have to suffer the reaction. The animal you are killing, he'll kill also you next life. Then you become bound up. Indian man (6): I have one question. Though there is mention, in earlier times, we see also used to eat meat. Prabhupāda: When? *Indian man (6): Aśvamedha*-yajña , all these things, and before that . . . Prabhupāda: That is now prohibited. *If you refer to śāstra , the śāstra says in Kali*-yuga these should be avoided. Guest: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I believe that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. *Prabhupāda: At that time, when there was aśvamedha*-yajña, gomedha-yajña , that was not for eating. That was to prove the strength of Vedic mantra , how the animal was put in the fire and again gave him a new life. So where is that Vedic chanter, Vedic brāhmaṇa, yajñika brāhmaṇa ? There is no such things, powerful brāhmaṇa . Therefore it is to be avoided. And that was not for eating purpose. To put one old animal in the fire and again he comes back with new life, that was the purpose. This question was raised by Chand Kazi to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu challenged him that, "What is this your religion, you are killing your father and mother?" So he referred to this, that in . . . "Formerly they were sacrificing cows in Your śāstra ." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained that sacrifice was not meant for eating. That was meant for renovating new life. That is not for eating. Indian man (6): Another question comes. Why . . . how the caste system has crippled our society so much, was accepted by . . . *Prabhupāda: Wrongly, wrongly. Kṛṣṇa says, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So according to quality and work. That is fact. If you have got engineering qualification and if you can work as engineer, people will call you engineer- sāhīb . Is it not? So there may be a class of engineer, but that depends on quality and work. But if you have no quality, no work, how you become engineer? If you have no qualification of becoming an engineer, and you do not work, you work as a clerk, and if somebody addresses you "Engineer- sāhīb ," he is a fool, you are a fool. (laughter) So if he's not a brāhmaṇa , if you call him a brāhmaṇa , then you are fool and he is also fool. So that is going on, fool's paradise. A rascal who is not in qualification in brāhmaṇa , if he's addressed and given honor of a brāhmaṇa , he sees, "Oh, for nothing I am getting this honor, that's right, very nice." And who is giving him honor as brāhmaṇa , he's also rascal. But it is not that. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth. One must acquire the quality of a brāhmaṇa : satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42) He must be truthful, he must be self-restrained, self-controlled, full of knowledge, very simple. All these qualifications, when he acquires, then he becomes a brāhmaṇa . Indian man (6): No, even in *Rāmāyaṇa* and *Mahābhārata* we find this kind of . . . Ekalavya was discriminated, Karṇa was discriminated . . . Prabhupāda: Because he was not accustomed to the practice of brāhmaṇa . One must be brāhmaṇa by practice. That is wanted. Indian man (6): This is kind of discrimination though. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man (6): This is kind of discrimination though. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Never mind if he's born in low-grade family, but he's eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . Do you mean to say unless one becomes a first-class brāhmaṇa he can go back to home, back to Godhead? No, that is not possible. So, kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ śudhyanti (SB 2.4.18). The purificatory process . . . just like these Europeans, Americans, they are being recognized as brāhmaṇas because they are pure devotees. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He says, kṛṣṇa-bhajane nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra (CC Antya 4.67). Kṛṣṇa-bhajane , if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no such discrimination, even if you make that. Because as soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become the best Brāhmiṇ . That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He immediately becomes on the brahmam platform. And brāhmaṇa means one who knows Brahman . Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇa . So every devotee, if he's purely engaged in devotional service, he's more than brāhmaṇa . And so-called brāhmaṇa , without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is not recognized. Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syād vaiṣṇavaḥ śva-paco guruḥ (Padma Purāṇa). If a dog-eater, caṇḍāla , he has become a Vaiṣṇava, he can be guru . But a brāhmaṇa , ṣaṭ-karma-nipuṇo vipro mantra-tantra-viśāradaḥ, avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt . If he's expert, Vedic chanting and everything, mantra-tantra-viśārada , but if he's not a Vaiṣṇava, he cannot become guru . So according to our Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . that is actually according to Vedic injunction. If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you become more than a brāhmaṇa . Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and then your life is successful. And Kṛṣṇa is being distributed by Lord Kṛṣṇa. Not only He's giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema , kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ (CC Madhya 19.53). Caitanya Mahāprabhu is so kind, merciful, He's not only giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema , which is very, very rare. Aap idhar kahan tehre hain? udhar koi mandir hai? Chaliye kuch prachar to ho raha hai. Kṛṣṇa bhakti Gītā Press vishesh prachar kar rahi hai. To kaise kam chal raha hai. Teen-char mahine rahiyega idhar. Hamara jo program hai vo to aplog manenge nahi. Dekhiye na ye sab angrez log mast mundan kiya, tilak lagaya. Ye hum apko bolenge to aap bigad jayenge. Ye to hamara padatti ipehle hai mast mundan karo, tilak lagao. (Where are you staying here? Is there any temple there? Okay, at least some preaching is going on. Kṛṣṇa devotion, Gītā Press is doing special publicity. So how is the work going on? Will you stay for 3 to 4 months here? The program, what we have is not agreeable to you? Look at these foreigners, they are so happy with shaved heads, applying tilak on their forehead. If I tell you this you will get upset. This is our practice, to become shaved head and apply tilak .) Indian man (4): Prabhupāda? Buddha was the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, right? Then why he has preached the impersonal form of God? *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . (aside) You have got Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam here? Yes. Find out that, when Lord Buddha appeared, that verse. Sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). His propaganda was to cheat the atheist class of men. Atheist class of men, they did not recognize existence of God, so He became one of them. Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam . This atheist class, they were killing animals in the name of yajña like anything. So yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7), so He came as Buddha to stop this animal killing. His real business was stop the animal killing, that these rascals are going to hell in the name of religion, so at least stop their activities of animal killing. So therefore he started the mission, ahiṁsā paramo dharma , "Don't kill animals." But in the Vedas there is recommendation, in the yajña , as you were saying, that there is . . . animal killing is recommended. So people presented that, "Here is animal killing recommended in the yajña ." Therefore he denied the authority of Vedas . Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam . So this Buddha incarnation is cheating the atheist class of men. He said that, "Don't kill animals. If you are killed you feel pain. Why you should kill animals?" That was his mission, to stop animal killing, sinful activities. So what was your question? Indian man (4): I just asked why he has preached impersonal form of God. Prabhupāda: Yes, because they were all godless, so he said: "There is no God, but you stop this animal killing." That was his mission. And he said, "There is no God, but whatever I say, you accept." So they agreed. But he is God. That is cheating. (laughter) Superficially he said there is no God, but he is God. Somehow or other, if people stop animal killing and accept Lord Buddha, then he becomes at least one step forward to God realization. So in a cheating process he made good to others. Yes? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Prabhupāda: Translation. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Then in the beginning of Kali*-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Añjanā, in the province of Gayā, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theists." Prabhupāda: To delude them. Read the purport. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, appeared in the province of Gayā (Bihar) as the son of Añjanā, and he preached his own conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned in the Vedas . At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and animal killing was indulged in unrestrictedly. Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse psychological effects incurred by animal killing. Less intelligent men of the age of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time being they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps for proceeding further on the path of God realization. He deluded the atheists because such atheists who followed his principles did not believe in God, but they kept their absolute faith in Lord Buddha, who himself was the incarnation of God. Thus the faithless people were made to believe in God in the form of Lord Buddha. That was the mercy of Lord Buddha: he made the faithless faithful to him. Killing of animals before the advent of Lord Buddha was the most prominent feature of the society. They claimed that these were Vedic sacrifices. When the Vedas were not accepted through the authoritative disciplic succession, the casual readers of the Vedas are misled by the flowery language of that system of knowledge. In the Bhagavad*-gītā a comment has been made on such foolish scholars. The foolish scholars of Vedic literature who do not care to receive the transcendental message through the transcendental realized sources of disciplic succession are sure to be bewildered. To them, the ritualistic ceremonies are considered to be all in all. They have no depth of knowledge. *"According to the Bhagavad*-gītā , the whole system of the Vedas is to lead one gradually to the path of the Supreme Lord. The whole theme of Vedic literature is to know the Supreme Lord, the individual soul, the cosmic situation and the relations between all these items. When the relation is known, the relative function begins, and as a result of such a function the ultimate goal of life of going back to Godhead takes place in the easiest manner. Unfortunately, unauthorized scholars of the Vedas become captivated by the purificatory ceremonies only, and natural progress is checked thereby. To such bewildered persons of atheistic propensity, Lord Buddha is the emblem of theism. He therefore first of all wanted to check the habit of animal killing. The animal killers are dangerous elements on the path of going back to Godhead. There are two types of animal killers. The soul is also sometimes called the animal, or the living being. Therefore both the slaughterers of animals as well as those who have lost their identity of the soul are animal killers. Mahārāja Parīkṣit said that only the animal killer cannot relish the transcendental message of the Supreme Lord. Therefore if people are to be educated on the path of Godhead, they must be taught first and foremost to stop the process of animal killing as above mentioned. It is nonsensical to say that animal killing has nothing to do with spiritual realization. By this dangerous theory many so-called sannyāsīs have sprung up by the grace of Kali-yuga to preach animal killing under the garb of the Vedas ." Prabhupāda: Now there are so many rascals in this dress of sannyāsī , they are eating meat. That is going on. They say: "What is the wrong of eating meat? We can eat." They eat meat. Then? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "The subject matter has already been discussed in the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Maulana Chand Kazi Saheb. The animal sacrifice as stated in the *Vedas* is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse." Prabhupāda: There, your question. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Because the asuras , or the so*-called scholars of Vedic . . ." *Prabhupāda: Now you were referring to the Vedic principle, but that does not mean you have to open slaughterhouse. But these rascals are opening slaughterhouse. Do you think it is Vedic principle? Suppose it is recommended that animals should be sacrificed in the Vedic ritualistic ceremony. Does it mean that you shall open regular slaughterhouse? Just as the Christians say that Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they are right in opening big, big slaughterhouse? Maybe Lord Jesus Christ ate fish in some awkward circumstances, but that does not mean that he is recommending to open slaughterhouse. In the Ten Commandments he says: "Thou shall not kill." When there is absolute necessity, there is no other food, that is another thing, but if there is sufficient other foodstuff, why should you kill? They are not even human being, those who are animal killers. Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Those who are animal killers, they are not even human being, what to speak of religious system. Nivṛtta*-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt ka uttamaśloka . . . (SB 10.1.4). If you are animal killer, your God consciousness is finished. You'll never be able to understand what is God. Then your life is finished. This life is meant for understanding God, and if you are animal killer, then your God understanding is finished. Guest (1): May I ask a question, Prabhupāda? Something that I've wondered about, perhaps you could explain it briefly. I believe that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme God, so don't get me wrong, but since you mentioned Christ, was he an incarnation of Kṛṣṇa? Was Jesus Christ sent here by Kṛṣṇa from . . . Prabhupāda: No, he says that he is son of God—that is accepted. Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa was Christ's father then. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is father, and Christ is the son. Guest (1): I understand it now. I just wondered. I wanted to hear . . . Prabhupāda: He came, "I am son of God." Yes. Guest (1): And when he spoke of his father in heaven, he was speaking of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is. Yes. Guest (1): I understand. It all fits together now. Indian man (7): Swāmījī, how could you convince then these Christian people that Christ was the son of God, or Kṛṣṇa was the . . . Prabhupāda: Christ says himself that "I am the son of God." (laughter) Indian man (7): Many Christians, they do not . . . Prabhupāda: Many Christians also . . . there are so many Christian editions. That is another thing. *Bali*-mardana: We have accepted. Prabhupāda: But all these Christians, they all my students, they are coming from Christian. How they accept Kṛṣṇa as the father? Guest (1): Prabhupāda, did Christ return to the spiritual planets then, when he left the earth, to be with Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: He is coming from spiritual planets. He is authorized representative of Kṛṣṇa. We accept him as śaktyāveśa*-avatāra . So I was invited in some priestly meeting in Melbourne, they asked me the question, "What is your opinion of Christ?" So I said: "He's our guru ." (laughter) Actually, we accept him as our guru . He's preaching God's message, he's Vaiṣṇava. Anyone who accepts God, he's Vaiṣṇava. He was explaining kingdom of God, God. So according to time, circumstances, audience . . . now we can just imagine what kind of people he had to deal with, that his commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." Then understand how much they were accustomed to killing. So what kind of men they were? And not only that, in spite of hearing his instruction, "Thou shall not kill," they killed him first. So what kind of men they were, just imagine. He said: "Thou shall not kill," and they decided, "We shall kill you first." So this class of men he had to deal with. Guest (1): What would happen to the people that killed Christ on the cross? Very bad, it seems. Prabhupāda: Christ cannot be killed, but they killed themselves. Devotee (3): So we read that Christ said: "I and my father are one," so they say therefore Christ is Kṛṣṇa, so therefore Kṛṣṇa can't be God. *Prabhupāda: "One" means in quality. And in the Vedic literature we say ahaṁ brahmāsmi . That means we are one in quality. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā . So now we are material bhūtaḥ, jīva-bhūtaḥ . When we realize that, "I am not this body. I am spirit soul, I am part and parcel of God," that is brahma-bhūtaḥ . Then bhakti begins. Then he enters into Vaikuṇṭha, after Brahman realization. So Lord Buddha's finished? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No. Prabhupāda: Go on, finish it. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse. Because the asuras or the so*-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward the evidence of animal killing in the Vedas , Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas . This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted in order . . ." *Prabhupāda: Just like you said that in the Vedas there is animal killing, therefore . . . (break) That was not killing. So instead of wasting his time, he said: "I don't care for your Vedas . It is my order that you stop if you love me." Here is the same . . . you cannot open slaughterhouse giving reference to the Vedas , or any sacrifice either. The Jews and everyone, the Muhammadans, they also make sacrifice. One day in the year they sacrifice. It's not that they recommend open a slaughterhouse. This is all nonsense, rākṣasa . That sacrifice also recommended in this sense, that you cannot stop animal killing. There will be a class of men who will eat meat—to give them some concession. So this is recommended, "All right, if you want to eat meat, you sacrifice." Amongst the Hindus, just like Kālī*-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā, the animal eaters, they are given this concession that, "If you want to eat meat, you just worship Goddess Kālī," and this Goddess Kālī–worshiping is recommended on the amāvasyā , the dark moon night, one day in a month, at the dead of night. So if one goes on eating meat in this way, one day in a month and dead of night, then he'll automatically give it up, "So much botheration, better give it up." Actually deny. "Yes, you can eat once in a month at the dead of night, when everyone will sleep, nobody can hear the screaming of the animal . . ." These are the recommendations. That is indirectly denying. If one is intelligent, he'll accept it, "Why so much botheration for eating meat? Better give it up." Indian man (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are so many gurus preaching Buddhism . . . Prabhupāda: We are not talking of so many gurus; *we are talking of real guru , that's all, real guru . Real guru is he who talks in disciplic succession of Kṛṣṇa. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). That is guru . The bhumi-phala guru is no guru . Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt . Anyone who is not Vaiṣṇava, he's not guru . First, He says in the Bhagavad-gītā , Bhagavān, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Find out this. He is guru who is preaching what Kṛṣṇa has taught. He's guru . Not that anyone and everyone becomes a guru . No. If you want to be cheated by such rascal guru , that is your business, but who is guru , that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . Anyone who preaches the teachings of Kṛṣṇa, he is guru . Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "You become a guru on My order." "How shall I become guru ? I have no knowledge." Oh, you don't require any knowledge to manufacture. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, you become guru ." Everyone can become. The instruction is there. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). We say the same thing. Not that "I have become Kṛṣṇa, not . . ." We say: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Then you become guru . Kṛṣṇa's instruction; *not to become Kṛṣṇa. If you want to become Kṛṣṇa, then you are not guru , you are cheater. Suppose you are working for master. If you say: "My master has fixed up this price, you cannot change it," then you are honest salesman. And if you place yourself that, "I am the master," then you are cheater. The cheater cannot be teacher. Teacher is he who simply teaches what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. He is teacher. That is not difficult. Anyone can do it. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Whomever you meet, you simply speak to him the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Then you become guru ." And if you don't say that, if you manufacture your own words, then you are cheater, you are not teacher. The so-called gurus , they're cheater. They want to become Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are cheater. And it is very easy thing if you cheat people, that "You take this mantra and you become God." Is God so easy thing to become God? But they want to be cheated. "Purchasing mantra , I shall become God." They want to be cheated. They do not think that, "Whether I can actually become God?" They do not take the weight of His existence. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . So, what is the time now? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eight o'clock, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Prasādam . (to Swāmī) What is that book? *Swami Krishna*-prema: (indistinct) . . . '67 . . . (indistinct) . . . with three disciples, Prabhupāda: Ācchā . *Swami Krishna*-prema: . . . Bombay to Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Ah. (end) *(Comments on Bhagavad*-gita Play) *Prabhupāda: . . . of this human being, people do not know how they are kept in ignorance. And . . . (break) . . . because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, out of His causeless mercy He comes to deliver us from this ignorance. Unfortunately, they are so much engrossed by the illusory energy, they do not take advantage of the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. So therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is being propagated that these dull*-headed mūḍha—they are being described as mūḍha, dull-headed—they do not know actual interest of life. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum ( SB 7.5.31). These dull-headed conditioned souls, they do not know their real self-interest, being influenced by māyā. Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's energy, so it is her duty to punish the conditioned soul because they have decided to forget Kṛṣṇa. Still, Kṛṣṇa is so merciful, He comes personally, He authorizes His devotee, servant, to enlighten these conditioned souls. Now our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an humble attempt to raise the standard of these conditioned souls to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Those who are engaged in this business, they should personally behave as devotee, and by their example they should teach others and elevate them from this gross ignorance of materialistic life. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya! (break) Rāmeśvara: Either by your books, by the dioramas and by the dancing. Devotees: Jaya. Haribol Prabhupāda! (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what was your opinion, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes, is nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They also have a performance to show you of Satish Chandra Ghosh's play. Satish Chandra Ghosh, remember that play that we received in Māyāpur, that Nitāi had translated? "Lust and Envy." You gave it to Madhudviṣa, myself and Sudāmā, and you were saying, "Just think how to perform this." Prabhupāda: Satish Chandra? Sudāmā: Ghosh. He's a playwrite. In Māyāpur we received two scenes that Nitāi had entire translated in Vṛndāvana—in January when we were there together. Prabhupāda: Satish Chandra or Girish Chandra? Devotees: Girish Chandra. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Girish Chandra. Prabhupāda: Girish Chandra Ghosh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they've prepared one of his dramas also. We wanted to show you on Friday. Actually, we can show you Wednesday now. We'll only be leaving Thursday. Wednesday night. *Sudāmā: It is incomplete. It is only the first two scenes, and the rest of the drama is four acts of Caitanya*-līlā. So we are waiting anxiously for the rest of the drama to come. Presently it is incomplete. Prabhupāda: So how'll you show the incomplete? Sudāmā: In Māyāpur you were interested to see the first . . . or see the scene of the enemies—anger, lust, greed, envy—so we have worked on it. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Kali, Kali*-yuga. Sudāmā: Yes, Kali. So as the scenes come, we are planning to work on them in that succession. Prabhupāda: So you have already worked? Sudāmā: Yes, on the first two scenes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have made a very accurate portrayal of the material world. Actually, the guests who come on Sundays, they very much appreciate these performances. I've seen myself sometimes at the end of the performance, they will give a very big ovation of applause. For even one, two minutes in a row, they continue to applaud. They very much appreciate it. People are fond of seeing things enacted in theater and dance. Prabhupāda: Generally attended by Indians? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, all the guests come. No, actually this kind of performance will be more appreciated even . . . I mean the ordinary American people will very much appreciate it. Prabhupāda: Do they come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Usually at least half or more of our attendance on a Sunday is from the Americans. Prabhupāda: Americans. *Sudāmā: And here in New York is very much a theatrical city, entertainment, Broadway and . . . this theater we have here in our temple is situated in off*-Broadway. Our theater downstairs is as high a standard in its interior as any other off-Broadway theater house. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's two classes: Broadway and off*-Broadway theater. Two different classifications. Broadway is very costly, big productions, very elaborate, and off-Broadway is more simple, but also very often there are good plays there. So this particular temple is located in an off-Broadway location. And actually it's very prestigious. We can advertise, and people will attend. They will definitely attend, and they'll even pay for the performances. We don't feel that we should charge yet, until the caliber of the performance is first class and until they have some full program. Because right now, just like this play only took about . . . the dance only took about twenty-five minutes. Prabhupāda: Altogether. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Unless they have something that is at least two hours, one and half, two hours, you cannot charge for. People will definitely pay. Prabhupāda: Pay or not pay, doesn't matter. They should understand the meaning. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you feel that the message of the *Gītā* came through? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Sudāmā: The precedence of our work, Śrīla Prabhupāda, should definitely be that the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is clearly understood by all, is that correct? Prabhupāda: Along with it, if you, the same thing, more demonstrative, if you put some movies . . . *Bali*-mardana: Slides. Prabhupāda: Slide or movie, that will be more impressive. Sudāmā: Mixed media. That is also very much appealing to the public. Our future projection plan is to work on the advent of Lord Kṛṣṇa for Janmāṣṭamī, which is about an hour production to an hour and a half. And then we were planning to work on the *Rāmāyaṇa*, if it was suiting or agreeable by Your Divine Grace. *Prabhupāda: The whole basic principle is this, that people should understand that, as I was explaining this morning, the sat and asat. So at the present moment we are living in the way that is asat. But there is another life, sat. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to raise the person from the asat platform to the sat. Under illusion they are, what is called, amock? What is called? Amock? They (laughs) have gone amock. They have gone amock. So it is a humble attempt to stop their this suicidal policy. They are practically committing suicide. They do not know what is the value of life and how they are spoiling it, this valuable life. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are trying to adjust things by the arrangement of external energy. That is not possible. Whatever adjustment they are making, so many big, big leaders, politicians, they came, Napoleon, Hitler, Gandhi, this, that. By the waves of material nature everything is driven away. In that way there is no possibility of adjustment. It is not . . . kathacaturānanam mali mali javanam. How many, caturānana. Caturānana means Brahmā. They come and go, come and go. And there is no permanent life; it is all asat. So they should come to the sat platform, that is perfect. The more you remain strong in your spiritual life, then more it will be impressed, it will act. And if it actually is not spiritual life but theatrical performance, then it will not help. *Bali*-mardana: Hmm. Very important. In your book you say that when it is acted by pure devotees, then it is powerful. Prabhupāda: So do your best, try your best. That is very good. Sudāmā: Thank you, Prabhupāda. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Devotee: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) *(Comments on Bhagavad*-gita Play) *Prabhupāda: . . . of this human being, people do not know how they are kept in ignorance. And . . . (break) . . . because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, out of His causeless mercy He comes to deliver us from this ignorance. Unfortunately, they are so much engrossed by the illusory energy, they do not take advantage of the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. So therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is being propagated that these dull*-headed mūḍha—they are being described as mūḍha, dull-headed—they do not know actual interest of life. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum ( SB 7.5.31). These dull-headed conditioned souls, they do not know their real self-interest, being influenced by māyā. Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's energy, so it is her duty to punish the conditioned soul because they have decided to forget Kṛṣṇa. Still, Kṛṣṇa is so merciful, He comes personally, He authorizes His devotee, servant, to enlighten these conditioned souls. Now our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an humble attempt to raise the standard of these conditioned souls to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Those who are engaged in this business, they should personally behave as devotee, and by their example they should teach others and elevate them from this gross ignorance of materialistic life. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya! (break) Rāmeśvara: Either by your books, by the dioramas and by the dancing. Devotees: Jaya. Haribol Prabhupāda! (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what was your opinion, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes, is nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They also have a performance to show you of Satish Chandra Ghosh's play. Satish Chandra Ghosh, remember that play that we received in Māyāpur, that Nitāi had translated? "Lust and Envy." You gave it to Madhudviṣa, myself and Sudāmā, and you were saying, "Just think how to perform this." Prabhupāda: Satish Chandra? Sudāmā: Ghosh. He's a playwrite. In Māyāpur we received two scenes that Nitāi had entire translated in Vṛndāvana—in January when we were there together. Prabhupāda: Satish Chandra or Girish Chandra? Devotees: Girish Chandra. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Girish Chandra. Prabhupāda: Girish Chandra Ghosh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they've prepared one of his dramas also. We wanted to show you on Friday. Actually, we can show you Wednesday now. We'll only be leaving Thursday. Wednesday night. *Sudāmā: It is incomplete. It is only the first two scenes, and the rest of the drama is four acts of Caitanya*-līlā. So we are waiting anxiously for the rest of the drama to come. Presently it is incomplete. Prabhupāda: So how'll you show the incomplete? Sudāmā: In Māyāpur you were interested to see the first . . . or see the scene of the enemies—anger, lust, greed, envy—so we have worked on it. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Kali, Kali*-yuga. Sudāmā: Yes, Kali. So as the scenes come, we are planning to work on them in that succession. Prabhupāda: So you have already worked? Sudāmā: Yes, on the first two scenes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have made a very accurate portrayal of the material world. Actually, the guests who come on Sundays, they very much appreciate these performances. I've seen myself sometimes at the end of the performance, they will give a very big ovation of applause. For even one, two minutes in a row, they continue to applaud. They very much appreciate it. People are fond of seeing things enacted in theater and dance. Prabhupāda: Generally attended by Indians? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, all the guests come. No, actually this kind of performance will be more appreciated even . . . I mean the ordinary American people will very much appreciate it. Prabhupāda: Do they come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Usually at least half or more of our attendance on a Sunday is from the Americans. Prabhupāda: Americans. *Sudāmā: And here in New York is very much a theatrical city, entertainment, Broadway and . . . this theater we have here in our temple is situated in off*-Broadway. Our theater downstairs is as high a standard in its interior as any other off-Broadway theater house. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's two classes: Broadway and off*-Broadway theater. Two different classifications. Broadway is very costly, big productions, very elaborate, and off-Broadway is more simple, but also very often there are good plays there. So this particular temple is located in an off-Broadway location. And actually it's very prestigious. We can advertise, and people will attend. They will definitely attend, and they'll even pay for the performances. We don't feel that we should charge yet, until the caliber of the performance is first class and until they have some full program. Because right now, just like this play only took about . . . the dance only took about twenty-five minutes. Prabhupāda: Altogether. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Unless they have something that is at least two hours, one and half, two hours, you cannot charge for. People will definitely pay. Prabhupāda: Pay or not pay, doesn't matter. They should understand the meaning. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you feel that the message of the *Gītā* came through? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Sudāmā: The precedence of our work, Śrīla Prabhupāda, should definitely be that the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is clearly understood by all, is that correct? Prabhupāda: Along with it, if you, the same thing, more demonstrative, if you put some movies . . . *Bali*-mardana: Slides. Prabhupāda: Slide or movie, that will be more impressive. Sudāmā: Mixed media. That is also very much appealing to the public. Our future projection plan is to work on the advent of Lord Kṛṣṇa for Janmāṣṭamī, which is about an hour production to an hour and a half. And then we were planning to work on the *Rāmāyaṇa*, if it was suiting or agreeable by Your Divine Grace. *Prabhupāda: The whole basic principle is this, that people should understand that, as I was explaining this morning, the sat and asat. So at the present moment we are living in the way that is asat. But there is another life, sat. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to raise the person from the asat platform to the sat. Under illusion they are, what is called, amock? What is called? Amock? They (laughs) have gone amock. They have gone amock. So it is a humble attempt to stop their this suicidal policy. They are practically committing suicide. They do not know what is the value of life and how they are spoiling it, this valuable life. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are trying to adjust things by the arrangement of external energy. That is not possible. Whatever adjustment they are making, so many big, big leaders, politicians, they came, Napoleon, Hitler, Gandhi, this, that. By the waves of material nature everything is driven away. In that way there is no possibility of adjustment. It is not . . . kathacaturānanam mali mali javanam. How many, caturānana. Caturānana means Brahmā. They come and go, come and go. And there is no permanent life; it is all asat. So they should come to the sat platform, that is perfect. The more you remain strong in your spiritual life, then more it will be impressed, it will act. And if it actually is not spiritual life but theatrical performance, then it will not help. *Bali*-mardana: Hmm. Very important. In your book you say that when it is acted by pure devotees, then it is powerful. Prabhupāda: So do your best, try your best. That is very good. Sudāmā: Thank you, Prabhupāda. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Devotee: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) (Evening darsana) Guest (1): . . . what thought there is in bringing the temple and the farm closer together as one entity rather than two? Prabhupāda: Wherever we have got farm, we construct a temple also. (aside) Just explain. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The . . . just like we have so many farming communities. Prabhupāda has mentioned that wherever our farm is . . . actually we're not farmers. Guest (1): No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is trying to create a class of intelligent men, brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa is the head . . . Prabhupāda: First class. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . of the human society. So actually it's one body, one entity already, simply that with different activities that we have to perform. The example is given, mukhe bāhūru pāda*-ja , that there is the head; there's the arms; there's the belly, the abdomen; *and then there is the legs. And all of them are part of the same body. So you might say that the legs are removed from the head, or that the head is removed from the stomach, but actually it's all one body and it works together. But the head gives direction to the whole body how to act properly, so that the benefit is there to be derived. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is creating a class of brāhmaṇas , or heads of human society, who can give direction to the whole sphere of human activities so that they can become successful in human life. So in reality, we're not trying to create farmers, we're trying to create brāhmaṇas . But our farming communities are, so to speak, an example, an ideal example how human society can live: some people in the capacity of preachers, some people in the capacity of farmers, how so many activities can go on—various occupations—but all of them can be God*-centered. So in reality, these people, they're farmers, they're out there on their tractor, they can jump off their tractor at any moment and preach the highest philosophy, because actually they're brāhmaṇas . They're intelligent class of men. So it's one entity. The basic principle is that modern society is neglecting to train up, especially young men. You can see that in spite of so many universities throughout the world, these young men are being trained up how to become women-hunters and debauchers, going to the bars, going to the gambling houses, and they are supposed to be educated people. So real education is how to train up one to have ideal character, to become a brāhmaṇa . Guest (1): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Our means productive. There must be food production, otherwise how the society will live? That is also a requisition. Good direction required, good government required, good production required, and good worker required. (aside) You can explain that there is no understanding of spiritual life; that they are missing the opportunity of human life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual culture, and basically speaking the human society begins from dharma , or accepting the principle of God. Dharma begins with this acceptance of the principle of God, that human beings, their activities, have to be regulated. Just like in human society there is marriage. This is according to scripture. Every scripture regulates there must be marriage. This is dharma . It regulates certain activities that should be done, certain activities that should not be done. And basically speaking this is the beginning of human civilization; *otherwise, we're simply living in a civilization of gross sense gratification which is in reality no different or no better than the society of animals. So from dharma , human society begins, and generally . . . you can see practically that dharma generally focuses . . . people are taking that dharma is for the basis of economic development. This is proven practically because in pioneer times in America, for example, people, they were simply going to churches and synagogues and temples and all kinds of things, what have you, and economic development was going on very nicely. In fact, economic development could not have gone on unless there was this principle of religion. People were very, practically speaking . . . in a pioneer situation people are very barbaric, struggle for existence—you know, you're in the country, there is no road, there's no cities—everyone is very . . . simply interested to maintain themselves. But by churches and things of this nature, people saw the need for a civilized give*-and-take way of living—economic development. Then gradually the ideas developed further and further. But in modern days we can see that people are having economic development and there's no need for God. They think, at least. In other words, people are no longer attending churches, synagogues, things of this nature, because they are making sufficient money without the need of religion. Therefore the basic principle is being missed, that human life is not simply meant for economic development. Human life—we analyze, we can say that . . . Prabhupāda: Human life is meant for making a solution of all material problems. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That they do not know. That point is missing, that there is another life which is eternal, blissful life of knowledge. But they have no idea that we can eternally live without birth, death, old age and disease. There is no information, neither education. But there is a life very . . . if you get eternal life, then the tribulations of material life no longer are there: birth, death, old age and disease. But they have no idea or information because there is no intelligent man to understand that there is another life which is eternal life of bliss and knowledge. There is no information. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They are living like animals, no intelligence. So actually human life is meant for purifying our existential condition so that we may not be subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. That they are missing. They do not know, neither there is any education nor university. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to educate people on that line. It is not a sentimental religious system, it is an educational system, how one can transfer himself to eternal blissful life. (aside) Satsvarūpa is there? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Let him come in. When you have come? Satsvarūpa: A few hours ago. Prabhupāda: So, everything's all right? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Explain to them about eternal life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eternal life? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eternal life is described by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad*-gītā : ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇaḥ. "Eternal" means without a beginning and without an end. So this body, this human form of life or tree form of life or animal form of life, aquatic form of life, it has a beginning and it has an end. But the person, the soul, has no beginning or end. This is described by Kṛṣṇa, that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). We've experienced in our practical lifetime that we were very tiny, youth; we had a small body, child's body: kaumāraṁ yauvanam . Then youthful body, then we're having old man, old woman's body, like this. So practically speaking, this body is constantly changing. Although Kṛṣṇa gives this example because He is trying to explain a very fine point of understanding, namely transmigration of the soul: that in reality the body that we have is changing at every moment, at every instant. But we cannot see that because our consciousness is not so sharp to pick up when there's change of body. But Kṛṣṇa explains, "You can see that you had a small body, now you have a youthful body, now you have an old man's body." Actually there is a continuum of change at every moment. So this is the changing material body, and the mind likewise is changing. But the soul, the living entity, is not changing, and this is experienced practically by the fact that in spite of so many changes of body that we had, we're still the same person. Just like we can remember when we were young children playing in the park or at the streets, and then older, older, older; going to school; older, family life; older, now retired; now like this . . . (indistinct) . . . so like this the body is changing in so many ways, but still I'm the same person. This can be practically experienced. Everyone has this understanding: different bodies, but you're still the same person. *So this spiritual identity should be the real concern. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This should be the real concern of the human society, not this temporary, changing body. The whole human society is presently geared how to satisfy the demands of this temporary body. So we can see practically that this is fruitless. Ultimately we have to give up this body. Ultimately we have to give up our connection with society, with family, with everything. So everything should have its proper place naturally, but the real focus of human life should be on the soul. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness—not only the soul, but the relationship of the soul with God. So practically speaking, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual movement. We're trying to come to the platform, as Prabhupāda has been speaking in class in the mornings about sat*-dharma : eternal religion or eternal activity of the soul. Sat means eternal. Here in this material world everything is temporary. By accident you may be born in America or in India or in Japan or in a human form or in a cat form, but it's temporary. But the soul is eternal, and there is also a place, paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ (BG 8.20), another place, beyond this material world, which is called the spiritual world. And that place is sanātana, that place is eternal, and Kṛṣṇa also is eternal. So, sat, sat-dharma or eternal occupation of the soul, eternal religion, is that the living entity should be in this place, this eternal place where there's no change of body—that you have to take a body and then give it up, and then according to your work, take another body and then give it up, revolve in the cycle of birth and death unnecessarily. Go to the sanātana atmosphere, and there the sanātana Lord is there, and there the soul is in its natural environment, and the exchange of love that takes place in this spiritual world, this is sat-dharma . So this temporary world of birth and death, this is asat . Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). It's asat , it's a temporary place. We're taking it to be real just like in a dream we take that the dream is all in all. But by chanting this mantra we will awaken from this maddening materialistic way of life which is simply binding us up more and more to this false conception of attachment for this body. Practically we know that we have to give up this body, but still, because everyone in the material world, Prabhupāda explained this morning, is just like a madman. People are attached . . . just like if you are attached to your clothes and you're thinking that if my clothes are finished, I am finished. So this is a mad proposition. You can always get another set of clothes. Similarly, we are different from this body. So to be overly attached with this body or even attached at all is a form of madness. That's a fact. We analyze this soberly. Guest (1): You mentioned an exchange of love in the spiritual world. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Guest (1): Could you explain that more? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is exchanging love in this world, we see that practically, that husband and wife are exchanging love, children and parents are exchanging love, friend and friend are exchanging love. There are so many different relationships in which we exchange love. Even animals like a dog, a pet dog, is exchanging love. It's been analyzed, experiments have been done that even a plant is more productive when he knows that the person who is taking care of the plant is a friend. They speak about the green thumb. So even plants respond. They are sensitive. In a sense they are also exchanging love in a simple way. So this loving propensity is natural. The difficulty is that due to ignorance, we're exchanging love on the bodily platform, which is asat , temporary. And therefore everyone is frustrated. Everyone is frustrated. It's a false platform of love. So the real platform of love is when we come to the soul platform. Kṛṣṇa speaks about this in the Bhagavad*-gītā : *That when you come to the soul platform—it's also called brahma*-bhūta stage, or platform of the soul—then mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām : that bhakti, bhakti means transcendental love and service to God. Prabhupāda: Bhakti means, yes, exchange of love between God and the individual soul. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This becomes awaking of the spiritual platform. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is gradually to purify one, because that natural loving propensity is there. Our contention, and practically we are experiencing it, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is natural way of life. It's not artificial imposition. Rather, in this present materialistic way of life, so many artificial standards and impositions have been put upon us. We can see that because culture is always changing. One year this is right to do, the next year that's right. Everything is simply mental concoction. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is eternal; *it's never changed. We have history from the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . For millions and millions of years people have been engaged in the very same process that we're following: of chanting the holy names, worshiping the Deity in the temple, taking prasādam , association with saintly persons, like this. The very same process, it hasn't changed. And the very same sentiment of love of God is being awakened naturally. So our contention is that the love is simply misdirected. It simply has to be redirected towards Kṛṣṇa, and the spiritual master, he does this. He takes our energy, our love, our intelligence, our everything and directs it towards Kṛṣṇa. And as a result, you become purified. A very natural process. Just like we have a propensity to love, so rather than waste our love on the temporary forms of the material world, because they're all perishable . . . dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api (SB 2.1.4). First of all we love the body, deha . And apatya , we love the family members, the sons; kalatra , we love our wife; ādiṣu , we like our community, nation, so many things. But all of these things, they're temporary. They won't last; they can't endure. So all of our love practically is being wasted. It's stolen. *Prabhupāda: There is an example. In a water tank you throw one stone. It becomes a circle. And the circle expands, expands, expands unless the circle comes to the shore. Similarly, our loving affair begins from personal self to family, from family to society, community, nation, international. But still, it is imperfect unless the circle reaches to the lotus feet of God. Then it is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). Here, any loving affairs, that is more or less lusty. A man or woman love each other with some desire, not without desire. That desire is sense gratification. But actually that is lust, not love. Pure love can be exchanged in relationship with God. Here there are temporary . . . a boy, a girl, or a man, a woman in relationship of love, but it breaks as soon as the lusty desire is not fulfilled. So here there is no question of love. It is all lusty desire. Real love can be achieved when it is exchanged with Kṛṣṇa, or God. Premā pum*-artho mahān (Caitanya-mañjuṣa), that is the recommendation given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is the highest achievement, when we come on the loving platform with God. Then we are satisfied. Big, big political leaders in our country like Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country so much. But the reward was that he was killed by his own men, by his countrymen. But this is not possible when the love is exchanged between God. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). A little love for God can save you from the greatest danger of life. That is real love. *And if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you can love with everyone. Just like we are spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is out of love for Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we would have sat down at home and loved Kṛṣṇa. Why you are trying to spread this love exchange to others? Because I know or we know that here in this material world, the so*-called love exchange is frustrating, and people are being frustrated. So let him love Kṛṣṇa, then we'll be successful. This is our mission. Everyone has got loving propensity. So this child has now love for his mother, or the mother has got . . . but as soon as the child will grow, the love will finish; *he will love somebody else. When he becomes young man, his love is transferred to somebody else. So here the so*-called love is not permanent, but when you love Kṛṣṇa it is permanent exchange of loving humor or mellow. So that is required. Sai . It is called sai-bhava. Sai means permanent; it will never vanquish. You'll relish loving mellows eternally. Explain this verse. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The eighth verse of Caitanya Mahāprabhu Śikṣāṣṭaka . Prabhupāda: Śikṣāṣṭaka . Satsvarūpa: "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord." Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: This is Lord Caitanya. He wrote only eight verses about all this literature. Then there is files and volumes and volumes about love of God. So in this Śikṣāṣṭakam , eight verses, the last verse is translated as, He prays: "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He will always remain as such, even if He handles me roughly in His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, and He will remain my worshipable Lord unconditionally." So this is just the opposite. This is pure love, just the opposite of the . . . what Śrīla Prabhupāda is explaining that in this material world love is based on some desire that actually becomes a kind of business, that "I love you if you will respond in this way." What to speak of someone saying that "I love you, even if you act as a debauch. You don't have to be faithful," that's . . . "You can do as you like in your own way, but my declaration is that I simply want to serve You and You'll always be my worshipable object." So love should be like that, otherwise it is simply business, that I will give you the product if you give me the money. But the lover is the living being . . . *Prabhupāda: You shall not expect anything in return. That is real love. Just like this mother is loving child, expecting anything—no, not expecting any return. But she still she gives service. So that is as a little sample of pure love. But here also some . . . when the child is grown up, if the child is not obedient, the mother practically withdraws love. But in the spiritual world, unconditionally love is there. As it is explained, āśliṣya vā pāda*-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām. Marma-hatām (CC Antya 20.47): whatever You do, I don't mind that, but still I love You. That's all. That is pure love. Guest (1): As a mother loves the child in pure love, does that help her to also find the pure love in the spiritual world? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just like Mother Yaśodā is loving Kṛṣṇa. Nanda Mahārāja is loving Kṛṣṇa. That is pure love. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: This, this loving affair between mother and the son is a perverted reflection of that pure love. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think he's asking a question also that sometimes comes up, that if one loves in this material love, for example one loves a child or loves humanity, does this help to develop love of God? Prabhupāda: No. But if you love God, it helps to love the human beings. Guest (1): I see. It's the other way. Prabhupāda: Just like if you supply food to the stomach, it helps the eyesight, but if you supply food to the eyes, then you become blind. (laughter) Guest (1): Thank you. Devotee: Is it important for . . . like we have our children here. As we come to this movement we're like children, it's important how we are molded, we are molded into the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as for example a child, it's important how the mother molds her activities, the child's activities, mold the child's life so that as the child grows up, acts towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's asking a question Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't it important to mold the activities of ourselves and also the children who come into this movement; to mold them so that we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our gurukula is there. Now these children are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (indistinct) . . . we see how they are learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are doing the same thing: offering obeisances to the Deities, taking prasādam , chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , in the same way as his father is doing. So automatically he's being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Good association, that is required. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvidaḥ (SB 3.25.25). We are keeping this house why? For association of devotees, so that automatically they become Kṛṣṇa conscious by association. The most unfortunate position is that there is no education about future life, or the perfection of life. The education is the animal education—the animal eating, we are eating. If we are eating on table, or nice place, nice chair, then we think we are advanced. But the business is the eating. Similarly sleeping. The dog is sleeping on the street—we are sleeping in good apartment, skyscraper building. They are thinking this is advancement of civilization. But actually the business is sleeping. Similarly sex life. The dog is having sex life on the street, we are having in a very nice apartment. The business is sex. In this way our modern activities are animal activities, but in a polished way. But that does not make any difference between the animal propensities and so-called civilized life. Civilized life is there when we understand what is God, our relationship with God. That is civilized life. But that is lacking. There is no such education. The education is only the same animal life in a polished way, that's all. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, could it be said that in a society where stress is placed on developing this understanding of God, people would naturally become disinclined for these so*-called modern activities of sense gratification? *Prabhupāda: That is the best qualification. If he becomes disinterested with these so*-called modern civilized activities, that is the perfection of life. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Bhakti means the more you become God conscious, you become disinterested with these material activities. And that is needed, because material activities means you are wasting our time. What is the value of animal life? It is risky. If we become like animals, then we'll become animal next birth. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). At the time of death, the mind's position will give me another body. That is nature's law. That we do not know. There is no education how the body is being transferred, how the soul is transferred to a different body. And there are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and at the time of death, according to our mentality, we have to accept by nature's law a type of body which may not be human body. That we do not know. There is no education. The people are kept in darkness about the laws of nature. That is a very risky civilization. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes they . . . *Prabhupāda: Just like a . . . without any knowledge if we infect some disease, it will manifest in due course of time, and you'll have to suffer. Similarly, without any knowledge we are infecting the modes of material nature, and according to that modes of material nature, you have to accept a type of body which may not be very comfortable. Of course, there is no comfort when there is death. We don't want death, but there is compulsory death. There is no comfort at all. But still, the short duration of life, if we have little comfort . . . but again if we have discomfortable life, then what is the benefit of this comfort? That material laws of nature we do not know, neither any education about it. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving that education. Therefore it is not a sentimental so*-called religious movement, it is a scientific movement of real education, to solve the problems of life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think human society has been educated to even understand the problem, what to speak of a cure. Prabhupāda: Problem there is, but he's a fool. Who wants to die? Why this fire brigade is running here and there? To save life. He doesn't want to die. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They will say, though, that everyone has to die. Prabhupāda: They will say, that is . . . whatever they . . . foolishly whatever they may say, then let them say. Actually he doesn't like to die. Otherwise let there be fire. Why you call fire brigade? Let me die peacefully in the fire. (laughter) Nonsense, he's suffering, but still he says there is no suffering. That is nonsense. That is ignorance. He's suffering every moment, but he does not know why he's suffering. That is ignorance. Just like an animal you are taking into the slaughterhouse. He's suffering, he's screaming, but he does not know, "Why you have taken to slaughterhouse, and I am . . . (indistinct) . . .?" And that is animal life. And when there will be question of "Why I am suffering? I did not want this fire; why there is fire?" that is perfect . . . (indistinct) . . . is there any solution? Then there is human life. And if he remains like animal, and simply try to make some remedial measures . . . he's suffering, undoubtedly, but because he does not take it seriously, therefore he's animal. Animal does not take seriously why he's suffering. That is the distinction between human life and animal life. Suffering is there, but the animal does not take it seriously. But human life must take it seriously, otherwise he's an animal. There are so many sufferings. This is adhibhau . . . adhidaivika. Adhidaivika : by—you say accident—by nature, by superior power, some miserable condition is enforced upon us. Suppose if there is an earthquake, that is not in your hand, but it may cause some havoc. This is adhidaivika . Similarly, adhibhautika : suffering caused by other living entities. And adhyātmika , suffering caused by this body and mind. So suffering is always there, but we are suffering, we have been accustomed to suffer. But when the question is that, "Why I am suffering? Whether there is any remedy?" that is human life. Otherwise, the animal life. That is the distinction between animal and human life. If there is fire, and there are animals only, dogs and cats, they cannot call fire brigade. They'll die, because they do not know how to take measures. But human being immediately calls fire brigade just to try to save himself. But the suffering is there, either he's animal or human being. But the distinction is the human being tries to counteract it; the animal cannot. So if you simply become subject to this suffering without any remedial measure, then you are animal. And you are suffering and you try for the remedial measure, that is human life. This is plain thing. You cannot say there is no suffering. Suffering is there both for the animal and for the man. The man tries for the remedial measure; the animal cannot. Hmm, what is that? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of the modern*-day cults in America, different philosophies, they say that all of the suffering is experienced within the mind. So they try by meditation to ignore the suffering. Prabhupāda: That's all right. When there is fire you meditate. Why do you call fire brigade? If you are so great meditator, then you go on meditating. Why you call for fire brigade? Nonsense. All rascals, that's all. (laughter) Simply rascals. Mūḍha . They have been described as mūḍha . Rascals, that's all. Devotee: Sometimes they say it's just a dream, and they say if you are bothering me, and you are just my dream, I don't have to worry about it. I'll have another dream and you'll go away. Prabhupāda: No, but dream is . . . it may be, but when there is fire, you call it dream, but why do you call fire brigade? When you are diseased, why you go to physician? Dream it. (laughter) (break) The major problem is birth, death and old age and disease. We do not want that. You must seek the measures. That is human life. Whether birth, death, old age, disease can be stopped? If there is any such life that there is no more birth, death, that is human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is the Vedānta philosophy: "Now the human life is meant for enquiring about these things." If you don't enquire, then you remain animal. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save the human society from this animal life, to bring him to the real human life. Animal life means there is suffering—go on suffering. Human life means there is suffering—how to get . . . how to counteract. That is human life. Suffering . . . so long you have got this body, there must be suffering. *The karmīs . . . Ṛṣabhadeva is warning that nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma : these rascals, being mad after sense gratification, they are doing everything and anything irresponsibly. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ. Pramattaḥ means mad. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma : things which you should not have done, but he's doing it. Why? Yad indriya*-prītaya : simply for sense gratification. Therefore, He advises , na sādhu ayam : this is not good. So why it is not good? Yata , he has already got a body, material body for which he's suffering, and he's again creating the circumstance by which he'll again get a material body and will suffer. Therefore, one should act very responsibly. Not like madmen. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). *Then Ṛṣabhadeva instructs, nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This body, although I have got this body, and the dog has got the body or the hog has got the body, but these bodies are not meant for being spoiled like the dogs and hogs. The hog is also whole day working to find out where is stool. So if you also work whole day and night for our sense gratification, then where is the difference between the hog's life and my life? The human life, human brain should be sober to understand what is the problem of life, why I'm subjected to so many tribulations, how to remedy, how to find out the remedy, and that requires tapasya. Tapo divyam (SB 5.5.1). In order to create that brain, it requires a little tapasya . Therefore we are recommending no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Because we are already mad by material existence, and again we are . . . if you are forced to become more and more mad by intoxication, by meat-eating, by this . . . then where is your life? Your life is finished. Because to understand these problems of life requires a little brain. So to create that brain, this little tapasya is required. He's already puzzled, and if you make him more and more puzzled by supplying him intoxication and this gross eating of meat, then he remains in the grossest platform of ignorance. That is not human activity. The brain must be little clear to understand what is the value of life, why I am suffering, if there is any remedial measure, how can I take it. That is brain. And if the brain is used only to find out where is sense gratification, where is sex, where is food, where is shelter, where is money, then, that is, that business is being done by the hogs and dogs. *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save people from this dogs' and hogs' life and to come to the real platform of understanding the value of life. They do not know it. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They do not know what is the aim of life. Simply by false hopes they are trying to adjust things with material effects. That will never be done. Durāśayā. Durāśayā means it is useless hope. It cannot be. Just like we practically see that the here in New York City, American people are very rich and intelligent, but they cannot stop this fire, which is unwanted. They cannot stop it. That is not possible. Because they are living very high, 300 feet high or more than that, you are not safe still. You are still in the same danger. Because you are living in big, big skyscraper building, it does not mean that you will not die. Death is there also—birth, death, old age, disease, the real problems of life. It does not mean that because we have advanced in so-called material civilization, you have avoided birth, death. Even big, big scientists who gave us so many big, big inventions, but still they died. They could not invent something which will protect them from death, that "At the time of death, give me this pill so that I will not die, and I'll go on giving you more scientific advance." That is not possible. What is your question? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That some people think that by meditating they can somehow or another ignore . . . Prabhupāda: Meditating means this subject matter: that I don't want death; why death comes upon me? That is real meditation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then the problems of life are more than simply those which we perceive? Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, what is the meditation? Think about something seriously. That is meditation. But if you have no important serious thinking, simply some imagination, how it will help you? *Ādi*-keśava: Excuse me, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This evening they are having one convention here, the Democratic National Convention. One of the two big political parties in the city, at one place called Madison Square Garden. And all the television and newspaper people in the whole country will be there. They're beginning at 8 o'clock this evening. So we want to send all the devotees in the temple on saṅkīrtana party there, because we feel that not only will the atmosphere become purified, but also all the television cameras and all the newspaper people will interview our devotees and take their pictures, and they will be on television all over the country, simply because . . . Prabhupāda: That is good cause. *Ādi*-keśava: So we are requesting if all the devotees can possibly go. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Ādi*-keśava: In that way they can all attend, if we have a big force . . . Prabhupāda: At least, let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. *Ādi*-keśava: I have a feeling it could be just like with the Chand Kazi. When he was . . . Lord Caitanya made a civil disobedience mood. Perhaps if we chant loudly enough . . . Prabhupāda: No, by hearing this transcendental vibration they will benefited. *Rādhā*-vallabha: The actual presidential candidates will be there. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Presidential candidates, the candidates for the president of the United States, they'll be there. Satsvarūpa: They'll all be there tonight. Prabhupāda: All right. Go ahead, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: Thank you Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees pay obeisances) Give them prasādam . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Both of you were in India? Satsvarūpa: No, only Mahābuddhi and Bhūgarbha, who is not here right now. Prabhupāda: Oh. So? Satsvarūpa: So they were very successful. Now we're thinking we'd like to take this party all over the world if we could. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Do. Satsvarūpa: Not . . . so far we've had our scope, the United States. We wanted to make it the whole world. Prabhupāda: Why not? Books are being appreciated even by Russia. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, so the scope is everywhere. What is your experience? Devotee (2): India, Prabhupāda. It was very, very large, and I wrote you some letters, but the experience is even greater . . . Prabhupāda: (guests come in) Oh! Mr . . . come on. So Mrs. Kallman is going to become a sannyāsī . . . (indistinct) . . . gradually you have to become. Mrs. Kallman: Must. Prabhupāda: So if you feel uncomfortable, you can sit on this. Mr. Kallman: No, no. The cushion . . . Prabhupāda: You are already accustomed Mr. Kallman: I'm always accustomed. Prabhupāda: So, how are you? Mr. Kallman: Very good, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You are now in New York? Mr. Kallman: I live here. Prabhupāda: Oh. No, you live, I know. Sometimes you go out. Mr. Kallman: Much traveling, but we've come for the parade. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mr. Kallman: Down Fifth Avenue. Prabhupāda: So you often you come to the temple? Mr. Kallman: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Hmm. So? Good . . . (break) Devotee (2): Two hundreds places—universities, schools, government institutions, big ministers, temple managements for all . . . Prabhupāda: They have given all orders? *Devotee (2): Yes, most of them gave orders to our . . . even unlike, some like United States some place, they would order all seventeen Caitanya*-caritāmṛtas , and all the volumes of Bhāgavatam out, and place an order for the rest to come, plus other books. And we lowered the price to about 45 rupees, which was . . . which was right where they can afford to pay for the volumes and immediately take them. Prabhupāda: What is the usual price? Devotee (2): $7.95, which would be like too many . . . eighty rupees or something like that. It would be very expensive for India for one volume. Prabhupāda: So you have reduced the price? *Devotee (2): To forty*-five rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa made it very, very reasonable for them that they can partake. Prabhupāda: That's all right. They are taking the book. That is wanted. We don't want much profit. Devotee (2): Many, many reviewers also. Big Sanskrit . . . it's the largest in the world . . . (indistinct) . . . many professors here they also read the reviews and very much appreciate the books. All the different parts of India we visited, from north to south, east to west. Prabhupāda: They're welcome. That's nice. So make world party. Satsvarūpa: Yes, we're very excited to do that. We're going to present it to the GBC . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Satsvarūpa: . . . what our practical plan is. Take this same party everywhere—Europe and then India and then other places too. Prabhupāda: We are getting good response for our books all over the world. Mr. Kallman: Constantly growing. Any new volumes coming out? Devotee (1): We're becoming so enthused when we hear you're translating so much, because now we're getting lots of text book orders, large orders, seventy, ninety, hundred books for one class, so they . . . that's when the students are waiting for more books. They're constantly saying more and more. Prabhupāda: So, you'll get it. You'll get it. (laughs) Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, give prasādam to Mr. Kallman. Mr. Kallman: Prabhupāda, could you please accept this small donation. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Give this garland. Mr. Kallman: It's heavy! (laughs) We are still building the fund, left over from Gaurahari's work. So we're constantly putting more money into the fund, for your use, whatever. Prabhupāda: Yes, my funds are being utilized in printing books and expanding centers. My Book Trust is divided into two: fifty percent for the printing the books and fifty percent for expanding centers. Mr. Kallman: Any way I can help, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Kallman: You're going to have a big parade. My favorite. Prabhupāda: You have got that store? Mr. Kallman: Well, we're doing well wholesaling now, Prabhupāda. We sell to stores, department stores across the United States. We had to give up the store because we couldn't have, you know, timewise. Prabhupāda: Hmm. You are now making wholesale business. Mr. Kallman: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mrs. Kallman: More volume. Prabhupāda: Wholesale business is better than retail business. My father was a wholesale cloth seller, cloth merchant. So he liked wholesale business, not retail. Mr. Kallman: The wholesale is much better. It's more financial . . . Prabhupāda: A little profit, but aggregate is better. Mr. Kallman: The volume is more. Prabhupāda: Yes, volume is more. In those days, he was making cloth business, he was making profit one anna or two paise per piece. Mr. Kallman: Very small profit. Prabhupāda: Yes. The Marwari businessmen, they want to sell for . . . suppose one lakh of worth goods, if there is customer to pay him immediately one lakh ten rupees, he'll sell, immediately sell. He thinks, "I've got that ten rupees," that's all. Again for sale. That is their way of doing it. They are not calculating that, "I have invested one lakh of rupees, I must get at least ten percent profit." No. Not at loss. A little profit. "Never mind, give me cash." That is Marwari business. And he, when he goes to purchase from his supplier, he sees that this man is purchasing at a time one lakh , two lakh . So he gives him all credit. Mr. Kallman: Works on the credit. Prabhupāda: So later on, he establishes his credit; without any payment he gets supplies. And they keep their credit. On the day of payment, they must pay. Mr. Kallman: Yes, exactly. Prabhupāda: Therefore the Marwaris, they become very big businessmen. Mr. Kallman: Very powerful. Prabhupāda: Yes. These Birlas, they have become so big, they have so much credit in the market that by telephone they will ask any gold merchant that "You purchase one thousand tolās of gold for me," he'll immediately purchase, because he has got credit. Mr. Kallman: Sure, many years. Prabhupāda: And next moment he phones another gold merchant, "What is the price?" he says. Say one anna less . . . "I'll sell one hundred tolās ." So he'll purchase without any investment and sells immediately and makes one hundred tolās , one anna profit, some . . . (indistinct) Mr. Kallman: Sure. Prabhupāda: By telephone. Mr. Kallman: Very quick. Prabhupāda: In this way, they become very, very big. They know how to use this art, these Marwaris. If you are going in India, you'll see Marwaris are very quickly they will come. They know how to do business. Mr. Kallman: Volume. Prabhupāda: Volume. Volume of the . . . of course, volume of business can be done which is easily selling. Mr. Kallman: It's a very good market, the United States, for clothing. Prabhupāda: Clothing. Mr. Kallman: Yes, constantly growing. Prabhupāda: You are purchasing from Ahmedabad? Mr. Kallman: We purchase from Bombay, out of Bombay. Prabhupāda: Aḥ, Bombay. Bombay is the center. So now we are having our temple. Whenever you go, you can stay with us. Mr. Kallman: Yes, we've been out there many times. Prabhupāda: Hmm, hmm. Mrs. Kallman: In Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, Bombay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bombay also. Mr. Kallman: That's Juhu. Prabhupāda: And Māy . . . you have been in Māyāpur also? Mr. Kallman: No, we haven't ever been to Māyāpur. We keep . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm, Māyāpur also. Mrs. Kallman: How is the school in Vṛndāvana? The school? Prabhupāda: That is still building is going on. Mrs. Kallman: Have they started? Prabhupāda: After the building is finished. Mr. Kallman: Well, we know you must be very busy, Prabhupāda, with your writings and your books. Prabhupāda: Yes, at night. At daytime I don't find time. Mr. Kallman: Hmm, hmm. Prabhupāda: But at night, I write. Mr. Kallman: So, we just came to say hello. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mr. Kallman: To see you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Mr. Kallman: We'll see you at the parade. Prabhupāda: Give this to Mrs. Kallman. Yes. Mr. Kallman: Very, very much. Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Rāmeśvara: We've been talking: if these management questions come, then it is a distraction, but also . . . even if the devotees are here and it is preachings, even then it's . . . so much time is taken. So we want to do the thing which is most pleasing. So we were thinking to arrange a little less darśana with the devotees. Prabhupāda: But outsider, if they refuse, they may be sorry. Rāmeśvara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is . . . Satsvarūpa: No outsiders be refused. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Satsvarūpa: No outsiders be refused. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Ādi*-keśava: We are arranging . . . I have arranged that each time in the morning when we go for a walk, we are taking all the devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Only for outsider you keep, say, from 5 to 6, and . . . Rāmeśvara: Important men. Prabhupāda: Hah. Rāmeśvara: If they are important. Prabhupāda: Let them come one by one. If they come one at a time, they will sit down. They'll not try to go away. But if they come, sit for two minutes and go away, then another comes . . . then it will be nice interview. Rāmeśvara: I see. There must be management. Hari-śauri: And the devotees can come in the morning for class. Prabhupāda: That's right. Try this experiment. Rāmeśvara: Anything that we can do to assist you in the translating work is the best service. Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) *Rādhā*-vallabha: It's mustard oil. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: It's mustard oil with spices, and I am not sure what the fruit is. It may be mango, I'm not sure. Hari-śauri: It's some kind of crude mango pickle. Prabhupāda: Why not take little? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Do you want me to try it to see what it is? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: You have taken? What is that? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I can't tell. Prabhupāda: No taste? *Rādhā*-vallabha: It tastes like mustard oil and spices. I think it's mango. Rāmeśvara: Yes, that may be it. *Rādhā*-vallabha: I think it's green mango. Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Rādhā*-vallabha: What do you think? Hari-śauri: Yes, it's mango. Prabhupāda: It's mango? That's nice. Hari-śauri: Tastes like pickled onions. (break) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This verse that we were studying yesterday: "You are fit to propagate the cult of devotional service. Therefore gradually hear all the truths about it from Me. I shall tell you about them." Prabhupāda: This is the . . . (break) . . . to see the newest sanitary condition. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Such an important country. So nasty everywhere, park, street. What is there? This is not good sign. In other cities, you see so neat and clean. Washington, even that parkway, so neat and clean. Why this city is neglected? Los Angeles also, neat and clean. Which other cities we went? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Detroit. Prabhupāda: Detroit is . . . Detroit is also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That park was a little dirty also. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Beer cans and . . . Prabhupāda: This is national degradation. Every state full of garbage, litters. Not only now, I was living here . . . (indistinct) . . . the last ten years. At least I have seen. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of the parents of the devotees who came the other day, they said they went to Vṛndāvana, and the gentleman who brought those pictures, photographs in Washington . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . he said he was surprised how clean Vṛndāvana was. Prabhupāda: Mean, even the poorest man's house you go in the village, you'll find everything neat and clean. At least the kitchen and eating, very neat and clean. Climatic condition is also nice. Almost all the year there is sunshine. Only during rainy season the sun is . . . that is also cooling effect. After summer season, the rainy season covering, there is enjoyable cooling. Now everywhere . . . (end) (Evening darsana) Guest (1): . . . what thought there is in bringing the temple and the farm closer together as one entity rather than two? Prabhupāda: Wherever we have got farm, we construct a temple also. (aside) Just explain. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The . . . just like we have so many farming communities. Prabhupāda has mentioned that wherever our farm is . . . actually we're not farmers. Guest (1): No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is trying to create a class of intelligent men, brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa is the head . . . Prabhupāda: First class. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . of the human society. So actually it's one body, one entity already, simply that with different activities that we have to perform. The example is given, mukhe bāhūru pāda*-ja , that there is the head; there's the arms; there's the belly, the abdomen; *and then there is the legs. And all of them are part of the same body. So you might say that the legs are removed from the head, or that the head is removed from the stomach, but actually it's all one body and it works together. But the head gives direction to the whole body how to act properly, so that the benefit is there to be derived. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is creating a class of brāhmaṇas , or heads of human society, who can give direction to the whole sphere of human activities so that they can become successful in human life. So in reality, we're not trying to create farmers, we're trying to create brāhmaṇas . But our farming communities are, so to speak, an example, an ideal example how human society can live: some people in the capacity of preachers, some people in the capacity of farmers, how so many activities can go on—various occupations—but all of them can be God*-centered. So in reality, these people, they're farmers, they're out there on their tractor, they can jump off their tractor at any moment and preach the highest philosophy, because actually they're brāhmaṇas . They're intelligent class of men. So it's one entity. The basic principle is that modern society is neglecting to train up, especially young men. You can see that in spite of so many universities throughout the world, these young men are being trained up how to become women-hunters and debauchers, going to the bars, going to the gambling houses, and they are supposed to be educated people. So real education is how to train up one to have ideal character, to become a brāhmaṇa . Guest (1): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Our means productive. There must be food production, otherwise how the society will live? That is also a requisition. Good direction required, good government required, good production required, and good worker required. (aside) You can explain that there is no understanding of spiritual life; that they are missing the opportunity of human life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual culture, and basically speaking the human society begins from dharma , or accepting the principle of God. Dharma begins with this acceptance of the principle of God, that human beings, their activities, have to be regulated. Just like in human society there is marriage. This is according to scripture. Every scripture regulates there must be marriage. This is dharma . It regulates certain activities that should be done, certain activities that should not be done. And basically speaking this is the beginning of human civilization; *otherwise, we're simply living in a civilization of gross sense gratification which is in reality no different or no better than the society of animals. So from dharma , human society begins, and generally . . . you can see practically that dharma generally focuses . . . people are taking that dharma is for the basis of economic development. This is proven practically because in pioneer times in America, for example, people, they were simply going to churches and synagogues and temples and all kinds of things, what have you, and economic development was going on very nicely. In fact, economic development could not have gone on unless there was this principle of religion. People were very, practically speaking . . . in a pioneer situation people are very barbaric, struggle for existence—you know, you're in the country, there is no road, there's no cities—everyone is very . . . simply interested to maintain themselves. But by churches and things of this nature, people saw the need for a civilized give*-and-take way of living—economic development. Then gradually the ideas developed further and further. But in modern days we can see that people are having economic development and there's no need for God. They think, at least. In other words, people are no longer attending churches, synagogues, things of this nature, because they are making sufficient money without the need of religion. Therefore the basic principle is being missed, that human life is not simply meant for economic development. Human life—we analyze, we can say that . . . Prabhupāda: Human life is meant for making a solution of all material problems. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That they do not know. That point is missing, that there is another life which is eternal, blissful life of knowledge. But they have no idea that we can eternally live without birth, death, old age and disease. There is no information, neither education. But there is a life very . . . if you get eternal life, then the tribulations of material life no longer are there: birth, death, old age and disease. But they have no idea or information because there is no intelligent man to understand that there is another life which is eternal life of bliss and knowledge. There is no information. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They are living like animals, no intelligence. So actually human life is meant for purifying our existential condition so that we may not be subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. That they are missing. They do not know, neither there is any education nor university. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to educate people on that line. It is not a sentimental religious system, it is an educational system, how one can transfer himself to eternal blissful life. (aside) Satsvarūpa is there? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Let him come in. When you have come? Satsvarūpa: A few hours ago. Prabhupāda: So, everything's all right? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Explain to them about eternal life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eternal life? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eternal life is described by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad*-gītā : ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇaḥ. "Eternal" means without a beginning and without an end. So this body, this human form of life or tree form of life or animal form of life, aquatic form of life, it has a beginning and it has an end. But the person, the soul, has no beginning or end. This is described by Kṛṣṇa, that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). We've experienced in our practical lifetime that we were very tiny, youth; we had a small body, child's body: kaumāraṁ yauvanam . Then youthful body, then we're having old man, old woman's body, like this. So practically speaking, this body is constantly changing. Although Kṛṣṇa gives this example because He is trying to explain a very fine point of understanding, namely transmigration of the soul: that in reality the body that we have is changing at every moment, at every instant. But we cannot see that because our consciousness is not so sharp to pick up when there's change of body. But Kṛṣṇa explains, "You can see that you had a small body, now you have a youthful body, now you have an old man's body." Actually there is a continuum of change at every moment. So this is the changing material body, and the mind likewise is changing. But the soul, the living entity, is not changing, and this is experienced practically by the fact that in spite of so many changes of body that we had, we're still the same person. Just like we can remember when we were young children playing in the park or at the streets, and then older, older, older; going to school; older, family life; older, now retired; now like this . . . (indistinct) . . . so like this the body is changing in so many ways, but still I'm the same person. This can be practically experienced. Everyone has this understanding: different bodies, but you're still the same person. *So this spiritual identity should be the real concern. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This should be the real concern of the human society, not this temporary, changing body. The whole human society is presently geared how to satisfy the demands of this temporary body. So we can see practically that this is fruitless. Ultimately we have to give up this body. Ultimately we have to give up our connection with society, with family, with everything. So everything should have its proper place naturally, but the real focus of human life should be on the soul. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness—not only the soul, but the relationship of the soul with God. So practically speaking, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual movement. We're trying to come to the platform, as Prabhupāda has been speaking in class in the mornings about sat*-dharma : eternal religion or eternal activity of the soul. Sat means eternal. Here in this material world everything is temporary. By accident you may be born in America or in India or in Japan or in a human form or in a cat form, but it's temporary. But the soul is eternal, and there is also a place, paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ (BG 8.20), another place, beyond this material world, which is called the spiritual world. And that place is sanātana, that place is eternal, and Kṛṣṇa also is eternal. So, sat, sat-dharma or eternal occupation of the soul, eternal religion, is that the living entity should be in this place, this eternal place where there's no change of body—that you have to take a body and then give it up, and then according to your work, take another body and then give it up, revolve in the cycle of birth and death unnecessarily. Go to the sanātana atmosphere, and there the sanātana Lord is there, and there the soul is in its natural environment, and the exchange of love that takes place in this spiritual world, this is sat-dharma . So this temporary world of birth and death, this is asat . Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). It's asat , it's a temporary place. We're taking it to be real just like in a dream we take that the dream is all in all. But by chanting this mantra we will awaken from this maddening materialistic way of life which is simply binding us up more and more to this false conception of attachment for this body. Practically we know that we have to give up this body, but still, because everyone in the material world, Prabhupāda explained this morning, is just like a madman. People are attached . . . just like if you are attached to your clothes and you're thinking that if my clothes are finished, I am finished. So this is a mad proposition. You can always get another set of clothes. Similarly, we are different from this body. So to be overly attached with this body or even attached at all is a form of madness. That's a fact. We analyze this soberly. Guest (1): You mentioned an exchange of love in the spiritual world. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Guest (1): Could you explain that more? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is exchanging love in this world, we see that practically, that husband and wife are exchanging love, children and parents are exchanging love, friend and friend are exchanging love. There are so many different relationships in which we exchange love. Even animals like a dog, a pet dog, is exchanging love. It's been analyzed, experiments have been done that even a plant is more productive when he knows that the person who is taking care of the plant is a friend. They speak about the green thumb. So even plants respond. They are sensitive. In a sense they are also exchanging love in a simple way. So this loving propensity is natural. The difficulty is that due to ignorance, we're exchanging love on the bodily platform, which is asat , temporary. And therefore everyone is frustrated. Everyone is frustrated. It's a false platform of love. So the real platform of love is when we come to the soul platform. Kṛṣṇa speaks about this in the Bhagavad*-gītā : *That when you come to the soul platform—it's also called brahma*-bhūta stage, or platform of the soul—then mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām : that bhakti, bhakti means transcendental love and service to God. Prabhupāda: Bhakti means, yes, exchange of love between God and the individual soul. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This becomes awaking of the spiritual platform. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is gradually to purify one, because that natural loving propensity is there. Our contention, and practically we are experiencing it, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is natural way of life. It's not artificial imposition. Rather, in this present materialistic way of life, so many artificial standards and impositions have been put upon us. We can see that because culture is always changing. One year this is right to do, the next year that's right. Everything is simply mental concoction. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is eternal; *it's never changed. We have history from the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . For millions and millions of years people have been engaged in the very same process that we're following: of chanting the holy names, worshiping the Deity in the temple, taking prasādam , association with saintly persons, like this. The very same process, it hasn't changed. And the very same sentiment of love of God is being awakened naturally. So our contention is that the love is simply misdirected. It simply has to be redirected towards Kṛṣṇa, and the spiritual master, he does this. He takes our energy, our love, our intelligence, our everything and directs it towards Kṛṣṇa. And as a result, you become purified. A very natural process. Just like we have a propensity to love, so rather than waste our love on the temporary forms of the material world, because they're all perishable . . . dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api (SB 2.1.4). First of all we love the body, deha . And apatya , we love the family members, the sons; kalatra , we love our wife; ādiṣu , we like our community, nation, so many things. But all of these things, they're temporary. They won't last; they can't endure. So all of our love practically is being wasted. It's stolen. *Prabhupāda: There is an example. In a water tank you throw one stone. It becomes a circle. And the circle expands, expands, expands unless the circle comes to the shore. Similarly, our loving affair begins from personal self to family, from family to society, community, nation, international. But still, it is imperfect unless the circle reaches to the lotus feet of God. Then it is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). Here, any loving affairs, that is more or less lusty. A man or woman love each other with some desire, not without desire. That desire is sense gratification. But actually that is lust, not love. Pure love can be exchanged in relationship with God. Here there are temporary . . . a boy, a girl, or a man, a woman in relationship of love, but it breaks as soon as the lusty desire is not fulfilled. So here there is no question of love. It is all lusty desire. Real love can be achieved when it is exchanged with Kṛṣṇa, or God. Premā pum*-artho mahān (Caitanya-mañjuṣa), that is the recommendation given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is the highest achievement, when we come on the loving platform with God. Then we are satisfied. Big, big political leaders in our country like Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country so much. But the reward was that he was killed by his own men, by his countrymen. But this is not possible when the love is exchanged between God. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). A little love for God can save you from the greatest danger of life. That is real love. *And if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you can love with everyone. Just like we are spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is out of love for Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we would have sat down at home and loved Kṛṣṇa. Why you are trying to spread this love exchange to others? Because I know or we know that here in this material world, the so*-called love exchange is frustrating, and people are being frustrated. So let him love Kṛṣṇa, then we'll be successful. This is our mission. Everyone has got loving propensity. So this child has now love for his mother, or the mother has got . . . but as soon as the child will grow, the love will finish; *he will love somebody else. When he becomes young man, his love is transferred to somebody else. So here the so*-called love is not permanent, but when you love Kṛṣṇa it is permanent exchange of loving humor or mellow. So that is required. Sai . It is called sai-bhava. Sai means permanent; it will never vanquish. You'll relish loving mellows eternally. Explain this verse. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The eighth verse of Caitanya Mahāprabhu Śikṣāṣṭaka . Prabhupāda: Śikṣāṣṭaka . Satsvarūpa: "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord." Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: This is Lord Caitanya. He wrote only eight verses about all this literature. Then there is files and volumes and volumes about love of God. So in this Śikṣāṣṭakam , eight verses, the last verse is translated as, He prays: "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He will always remain as such, even if He handles me roughly in His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, and He will remain my worshipable Lord unconditionally." So this is just the opposite. This is pure love, just the opposite of the . . . what Śrīla Prabhupāda is explaining that in this material world love is based on some desire that actually becomes a kind of business, that "I love you if you will respond in this way." What to speak of someone saying that "I love you, even if you act as a debauch. You don't have to be faithful," that's . . . "You can do as you like in your own way, but my declaration is that I simply want to serve You and You'll always be my worshipable object." So love should be like that, otherwise it is simply business, that I will give you the product if you give me the money. But the lover is the living being . . . *Prabhupāda: You shall not expect anything in return. That is real love. Just like this mother is loving child, expecting anything—no, not expecting any return. But she still she gives service. So that is as a little sample of pure love. But here also some . . . when the child is grown up, if the child is not obedient, the mother practically withdraws love. But in the spiritual world, unconditionally love is there. As it is explained, āśliṣya vā pāda*-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām. Marma-hatām (CC Antya 20.47): whatever You do, I don't mind that, but still I love You. That's all. That is pure love. Guest (1): As a mother loves the child in pure love, does that help her to also find the pure love in the spiritual world? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just like Mother Yaśodā is loving Kṛṣṇa. Nanda Mahārāja is loving Kṛṣṇa. That is pure love. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: This, this loving affair between mother and the son is a perverted reflection of that pure love. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think he's asking a question also that sometimes comes up, that if one loves in this material love, for example one loves a child or loves humanity, does this help to develop love of God? Prabhupāda: No. But if you love God, it helps to love the human beings. Guest (1): I see. It's the other way. Prabhupāda: Just like if you supply food to the stomach, it helps the eyesight, but if you supply food to the eyes, then you become blind. (laughter) Guest (1): Thank you. Devotee: Is it important for . . . like we have our children here. As we come to this movement we're like children, it's important how we are molded, we are molded into the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as for example a child, it's important how the mother molds her activities, the child's activities, mold the child's life so that as the child grows up, acts towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's asking a question Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't it important to mold the activities of ourselves and also the children who come into this movement; to mold them so that we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our gurukula is there. Now these children are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (indistinct) . . . we see how they are learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are doing the same thing: offering obeisances to the Deities, taking prasādam , chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , in the same way as his father is doing. So automatically he's being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Good association, that is required. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvidaḥ (SB 3.25.25). We are keeping this house why? For association of devotees, so that automatically they become Kṛṣṇa conscious by association. The most unfortunate position is that there is no education about future life, or the perfection of life. The education is the animal education—the animal eating, we are eating. If we are eating on table, or nice place, nice chair, then we think we are advanced. But the business is the eating. Similarly sleeping. The dog is sleeping on the street—we are sleeping in good apartment, skyscraper building. They are thinking this is advancement of civilization. But actually the business is sleeping. Similarly sex life. The dog is having sex life on the street, we are having in a very nice apartment. The business is sex. In this way our modern activities are animal activities, but in a polished way. But that does not make any difference between the animal propensities and so-called civilized life. Civilized life is there when we understand what is God, our relationship with God. That is civilized life. But that is lacking. There is no such education. The education is only the same animal life in a polished way, that's all. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, could it be said that in a society where stress is placed on developing this understanding of God, people would naturally become disinclined for these so*-called modern activities of sense gratification? *Prabhupāda: That is the best qualification. If he becomes disinterested with these so*-called modern civilized activities, that is the perfection of life. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Bhakti means the more you become God conscious, you become disinterested with these material activities. And that is needed, because material activities means you are wasting our time. What is the value of animal life? It is risky. If we become like animals, then we'll become animal next birth. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). At the time of death, the mind's position will give me another body. That is nature's law. That we do not know. There is no education how the body is being transferred, how the soul is transferred to a different body. And there are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and at the time of death, according to our mentality, we have to accept by nature's law a type of body which may not be human body. That we do not know. There is no education. The people are kept in darkness about the laws of nature. That is a very risky civilization. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes they . . . *Prabhupāda: Just like a . . . without any knowledge if we infect some disease, it will manifest in due course of time, and you'll have to suffer. Similarly, without any knowledge we are infecting the modes of material nature, and according to that modes of material nature, you have to accept a type of body which may not be very comfortable. Of course, there is no comfort when there is death. We don't want death, but there is compulsory death. There is no comfort at all. But still, the short duration of life, if we have little comfort . . . but again if we have discomfortable life, then what is the benefit of this comfort? That material laws of nature we do not know, neither any education about it. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving that education. Therefore it is not a sentimental so*-called religious movement, it is a scientific movement of real education, to solve the problems of life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think human society has been educated to even understand the problem, what to speak of a cure. Prabhupāda: Problem there is, but he's a fool. Who wants to die? Why this fire brigade is running here and there? To save life. He doesn't want to die. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They will say, though, that everyone has to die. Prabhupāda: They will say, that is . . . whatever they . . . foolishly whatever they may say, then let them say. Actually he doesn't like to die. Otherwise let there be fire. Why you call fire brigade? Let me die peacefully in the fire. (laughter) Nonsense, he's suffering, but still he says there is no suffering. That is nonsense. That is ignorance. He's suffering every moment, but he does not know why he's suffering. That is ignorance. Just like an animal you are taking into the slaughterhouse. He's suffering, he's screaming, but he does not know, "Why you have taken to slaughterhouse, and I am . . . (indistinct) . . .?" And that is animal life. And when there will be question of "Why I am suffering? I did not want this fire; why there is fire?" that is perfect . . . (indistinct) . . . is there any solution? Then there is human life. And if he remains like animal, and simply try to make some remedial measures . . . he's suffering, undoubtedly, but because he does not take it seriously, therefore he's animal. Animal does not take seriously why he's suffering. That is the distinction between human life and animal life. Suffering is there, but the animal does not take it seriously. But human life must take it seriously, otherwise he's an animal. There are so many sufferings. This is adhibhau . . . adhidaivika. Adhidaivika : by—you say accident—by nature, by superior power, some miserable condition is enforced upon us. Suppose if there is an earthquake, that is not in your hand, but it may cause some havoc. This is adhidaivika . Similarly, adhibhautika : suffering caused by other living entities. And adhyātmika , suffering caused by this body and mind. So suffering is always there, but we are suffering, we have been accustomed to suffer. But when the question is that, "Why I am suffering? Whether there is any remedy?" that is human life. Otherwise, the animal life. That is the distinction between animal and human life. If there is fire, and there are animals only, dogs and cats, they cannot call fire brigade. They'll die, because they do not know how to take measures. But human being immediately calls fire brigade just to try to save himself. But the suffering is there, either he's animal or human being. But the distinction is the human being tries to counteract it; the animal cannot. So if you simply become subject to this suffering without any remedial measure, then you are animal. And you are suffering and you try for the remedial measure, that is human life. This is plain thing. You cannot say there is no suffering. Suffering is there both for the animal and for the man. The man tries for the remedial measure; the animal cannot. Hmm, what is that? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of the modern*-day cults in America, different philosophies, they say that all of the suffering is experienced within the mind. So they try by meditation to ignore the suffering. Prabhupāda: That's all right. When there is fire you meditate. Why do you call fire brigade? If you are so great meditator, then you go on meditating. Why you call for fire brigade? Nonsense. All rascals, that's all. (laughter) Simply rascals. Mūḍha . They have been described as mūḍha . Rascals, that's all. Devotee: Sometimes they say it's just a dream, and they say if you are bothering me, and you are just my dream, I don't have to worry about it. I'll have another dream and you'll go away. Prabhupāda: No, but dream is . . . it may be, but when there is fire, you call it dream, but why do you call fire brigade? When you are diseased, why you go to physician? Dream it. (laughter) (break) The major problem is birth, death and old age and disease. We do not want that. You must seek the measures. That is human life. Whether birth, death, old age, disease can be stopped? If there is any such life that there is no more birth, death, that is human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is the Vedānta philosophy: "Now the human life is meant for enquiring about these things." If you don't enquire, then you remain animal. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save the human society from this animal life, to bring him to the real human life. Animal life means there is suffering—go on suffering. Human life means there is suffering—how to get . . . how to counteract. That is human life. Suffering . . . so long you have got this body, there must be suffering. *The karmīs . . . Ṛṣabhadeva is warning that nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma : these rascals, being mad after sense gratification, they are doing everything and anything irresponsibly. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ. Pramattaḥ means mad. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma : things which you should not have done, but he's doing it. Why? Yad indriya*-prītaya : simply for sense gratification. Therefore, He advises , na sādhu ayam : this is not good. So why it is not good? Yata , he has already got a body, material body for which he's suffering, and he's again creating the circumstance by which he'll again get a material body and will suffer. Therefore, one should act very responsibly. Not like madmen. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). *Then Ṛṣabhadeva instructs, nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This body, although I have got this body, and the dog has got the body or the hog has got the body, but these bodies are not meant for being spoiled like the dogs and hogs. The hog is also whole day working to find out where is stool. So if you also work whole day and night for our sense gratification, then where is the difference between the hog's life and my life? The human life, human brain should be sober to understand what is the problem of life, why I'm subjected to so many tribulations, how to remedy, how to find out the remedy, and that requires tapasya. Tapo divyam (SB 5.5.1). In order to create that brain, it requires a little tapasya . Therefore we are recommending no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Because we are already mad by material existence, and again we are . . . if you are forced to become more and more mad by intoxication, by meat-eating, by this . . . then where is your life? Your life is finished. Because to understand these problems of life requires a little brain. So to create that brain, this little tapasya is required. He's already puzzled, and if you make him more and more puzzled by supplying him intoxication and this gross eating of meat, then he remains in the grossest platform of ignorance. That is not human activity. The brain must be little clear to understand what is the value of life, why I am suffering, if there is any remedial measure, how can I take it. That is brain. And if the brain is used only to find out where is sense gratification, where is sex, where is food, where is shelter, where is money, then, that is, that business is being done by the hogs and dogs. *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save people from this dogs' and hogs' life and to come to the real platform of understanding the value of life. They do not know it. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They do not know what is the aim of life. Simply by false hopes they are trying to adjust things with material effects. That will never be done. Durāśayā. Durāśayā means it is useless hope. It cannot be. Just like we practically see that the here in New York City, American people are very rich and intelligent, but they cannot stop this fire, which is unwanted. They cannot stop it. That is not possible. Because they are living very high, 300 feet high or more than that, you are not safe still. You are still in the same danger. Because you are living in big, big skyscraper building, it does not mean that you will not die. Death is there also—birth, death, old age, disease, the real problems of life. It does not mean that because we have advanced in so-called material civilization, you have avoided birth, death. Even big, big scientists who gave us so many big, big inventions, but still they died. They could not invent something which will protect them from death, that "At the time of death, give me this pill so that I will not die, and I'll go on giving you more scientific advance." That is not possible. What is your question? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That some people think that by meditating they can somehow or another ignore . . . Prabhupāda: Meditating means this subject matter: that I don't want death; why death comes upon me? That is real meditation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then the problems of life are more than simply those which we perceive? Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, what is the meditation? Think about something seriously. That is meditation. But if you have no important serious thinking, simply some imagination, how it will help you? *Ādi*-keśava: Excuse me, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This evening they are having one convention here, the Democratic National Convention. One of the two big political parties in the city, at one place called Madison Square Garden. And all the television and newspaper people in the whole country will be there. They're beginning at 8 o'clock this evening. So we want to send all the devotees in the temple on saṅkīrtana party there, because we feel that not only will the atmosphere become purified, but also all the television cameras and all the newspaper people will interview our devotees and take their pictures, and they will be on television all over the country, simply because . . . Prabhupāda: That is good cause. *Ādi*-keśava: So we are requesting if all the devotees can possibly go. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Ādi*-keśava: In that way they can all attend, if we have a big force . . . Prabhupāda: At least, let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. *Ādi*-keśava: I have a feeling it could be just like with the Chand Kazi. When he was . . . Lord Caitanya made a civil disobedience mood. Perhaps if we chant loudly enough . . . Prabhupāda: No, by hearing this transcendental vibration they will benefited. *Rādhā*-vallabha: The actual presidential candidates will be there. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Presidential candidates, the candidates for the president of the United States, they'll be there. Satsvarūpa: They'll all be there tonight. Prabhupāda: All right. Go ahead, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: Thank you Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees pay obeisances) Give them prasādam . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Both of you were in India? Satsvarūpa: No, only Mahābuddhi and Bhūgarbha, who is not here right now. Prabhupāda: Oh. So? Satsvarūpa: So they were very successful. Now we're thinking we'd like to take this party all over the world if we could. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Do. Satsvarūpa: Not . . . so far we've had our scope, the United States. We wanted to make it the whole world. Prabhupāda: Why not? Books are being appreciated even by Russia. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, so the scope is everywhere. What is your experience? Devotee (2): India, Prabhupāda. It was very, very large, and I wrote you some letters, but the experience is even greater . . . Prabhupāda: (guests come in) Oh! Mr . . . come on. So Mrs. Kallman is going to become a sannyāsī . . . (indistinct) . . . gradually you have to become. Mrs. Kallman: Must. Prabhupāda: So if you feel uncomfortable, you can sit on this. Mr. Kallman: No, no. The cushion . . . Prabhupāda: You are already accustomed Mr. Kallman: I'm always accustomed. Prabhupāda: So, how are you? Mr. Kallman: Very good, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You are now in New York? Mr. Kallman: I live here. Prabhupāda: Oh. No, you live, I know. Sometimes you go out. Mr. Kallman: Much traveling, but we've come for the parade. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mr. Kallman: Down Fifth Avenue. Prabhupāda: So you often you come to the temple? Mr. Kallman: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Hmm. So? Good . . . (break) Devotee (2): Two hundreds places—universities, schools, government institutions, big ministers, temple managements for all . . . Prabhupāda: They have given all orders? *Devotee (2): Yes, most of them gave orders to our . . . even unlike, some like United States some place, they would order all seventeen Caitanya*-caritāmṛtas , and all the volumes of Bhāgavatam out, and place an order for the rest to come, plus other books. And we lowered the price to about 45 rupees, which was . . . which was right where they can afford to pay for the volumes and immediately take them. Prabhupāda: What is the usual price? Devotee (2): $7.95, which would be like too many . . . eighty rupees or something like that. It would be very expensive for India for one volume. Prabhupāda: So you have reduced the price? *Devotee (2): To forty*-five rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa made it very, very reasonable for them that they can partake. Prabhupāda: That's all right. They are taking the book. That is wanted. We don't want much profit. Devotee (2): Many, many reviewers also. Big Sanskrit . . . it's the largest in the world . . . (indistinct) . . . many professors here they also read the reviews and very much appreciate the books. All the different parts of India we visited, from north to south, east to west. Prabhupāda: They're welcome. That's nice. So make world party. Satsvarūpa: Yes, we're very excited to do that. We're going to present it to the GBC . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Satsvarūpa: . . . what our practical plan is. Take this same party everywhere—Europe and then India and then other places too. Prabhupāda: We are getting good response for our books all over the world. Mr. Kallman: Constantly growing. Any new volumes coming out? Devotee (1): We're becoming so enthused when we hear you're translating so much, because now we're getting lots of text book orders, large orders, seventy, ninety, hundred books for one class, so they . . . that's when the students are waiting for more books. They're constantly saying more and more. Prabhupāda: So, you'll get it. You'll get it. (laughs) Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, give prasādam to Mr. Kallman. Mr. Kallman: Prabhupāda, could you please accept this small donation. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Give this garland. Mr. Kallman: It's heavy! (laughs) We are still building the fund, left over from Gaurahari's work. So we're constantly putting more money into the fund, for your use, whatever. Prabhupāda: Yes, my funds are being utilized in printing books and expanding centers. My Book Trust is divided into two: fifty percent for the printing the books and fifty percent for expanding centers. Mr. Kallman: Any way I can help, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Kallman: You're going to have a big parade. My favorite. Prabhupāda: You have got that store? Mr. Kallman: Well, we're doing well wholesaling now, Prabhupāda. We sell to stores, department stores across the United States. We had to give up the store because we couldn't have, you know, timewise. Prabhupāda: Hmm. You are now making wholesale business. Mr. Kallman: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mrs. Kallman: More volume. Prabhupāda: Wholesale business is better than retail business. My father was a wholesale cloth seller, cloth merchant. So he liked wholesale business, not retail. Mr. Kallman: The wholesale is much better. It's more financial . . . Prabhupāda: A little profit, but aggregate is better. Mr. Kallman: The volume is more. Prabhupāda: Yes, volume is more. In those days, he was making cloth business, he was making profit one anna or two paise per piece. Mr. Kallman: Very small profit. Prabhupāda: Yes. The Marwari businessmen, they want to sell for . . . suppose one lakh of worth goods, if there is customer to pay him immediately one lakh ten rupees, he'll sell, immediately sell. He thinks, "I've got that ten rupees," that's all. Again for sale. That is their way of doing it. They are not calculating that, "I have invested one lakh of rupees, I must get at least ten percent profit." No. Not at loss. A little profit. "Never mind, give me cash." That is Marwari business. And he, when he goes to purchase from his supplier, he sees that this man is purchasing at a time one lakh , two lakh . So he gives him all credit. Mr. Kallman: Works on the credit. Prabhupāda: So later on, he establishes his credit; without any payment he gets supplies. And they keep their credit. On the day of payment, they must pay. Mr. Kallman: Yes, exactly. Prabhupāda: Therefore the Marwaris, they become very big businessmen. Mr. Kallman: Very powerful. Prabhupāda: Yes. These Birlas, they have become so big, they have so much credit in the market that by telephone they will ask any gold merchant that "You purchase one thousand tolās of gold for me," he'll immediately purchase, because he has got credit. Mr. Kallman: Sure, many years. Prabhupāda: And next moment he phones another gold merchant, "What is the price?" he says. Say one anna less . . . "I'll sell one hundred tolās ." So he'll purchase without any investment and sells immediately and makes one hundred tolās , one anna profit, some . . . (indistinct) Mr. Kallman: Sure. Prabhupāda: By telephone. Mr. Kallman: Very quick. Prabhupāda: In this way, they become very, very big. They know how to use this art, these Marwaris. If you are going in India, you'll see Marwaris are very quickly they will come. They know how to do business. Mr. Kallman: Volume. Prabhupāda: Volume. Volume of the . . . of course, volume of business can be done which is easily selling. Mr. Kallman: It's a very good market, the United States, for clothing. Prabhupāda: Clothing. Mr. Kallman: Yes, constantly growing. Prabhupāda: You are purchasing from Ahmedabad? Mr. Kallman: We purchase from Bombay, out of Bombay. Prabhupāda: Aḥ, Bombay. Bombay is the center. So now we are having our temple. Whenever you go, you can stay with us. Mr. Kallman: Yes, we've been out there many times. Prabhupāda: Hmm, hmm. Mrs. Kallman: In Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, Bombay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bombay also. Mr. Kallman: That's Juhu. Prabhupāda: And Māy . . . you have been in Māyāpur also? Mr. Kallman: No, we haven't ever been to Māyāpur. We keep . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm, Māyāpur also. Mrs. Kallman: How is the school in Vṛndāvana? The school? Prabhupāda: That is still building is going on. Mrs. Kallman: Have they started? Prabhupāda: After the building is finished. Mr. Kallman: Well, we know you must be very busy, Prabhupāda, with your writings and your books. Prabhupāda: Yes, at night. At daytime I don't find time. Mr. Kallman: Hmm, hmm. Prabhupāda: But at night, I write. Mr. Kallman: So, we just came to say hello. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mr. Kallman: To see you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Mr. Kallman: We'll see you at the parade. Prabhupāda: Give this to Mrs. Kallman. Yes. Mr. Kallman: Very, very much. Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Rāmeśvara: We've been talking: if these management questions come, then it is a distraction, but also . . . even if the devotees are here and it is preachings, even then it's . . . so much time is taken. So we want to do the thing which is most pleasing. So we were thinking to arrange a little less darśana with the devotees. Prabhupāda: But outsider, if they refuse, they may be sorry. Rāmeśvara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is . . . Satsvarūpa: No outsiders be refused. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Satsvarūpa: No outsiders be refused. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Ādi*-keśava: We are arranging . . . I have arranged that each time in the morning when we go for a walk, we are taking all the devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Only for outsider you keep, say, from 5 to 6, and . . . Rāmeśvara: Important men. Prabhupāda: Hah. Rāmeśvara: If they are important. Prabhupāda: Let them come one by one. If they come one at a time, they will sit down. They'll not try to go away. But if they come, sit for two minutes and go away, then another comes . . . then it will be nice interview. Rāmeśvara: I see. There must be management. Hari-śauri: And the devotees can come in the morning for class. Prabhupāda: That's right. Try this experiment. Rāmeśvara: Anything that we can do to assist you in the translating work is the best service. Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) *Rādhā*-vallabha: It's mustard oil. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: It's mustard oil with spices, and I am not sure what the fruit is. It may be mango, I'm not sure. Hari-śauri: It's some kind of crude mango pickle. Prabhupāda: Why not take little? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Do you want me to try it to see what it is? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: You have taken? What is that? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I can't tell. Prabhupāda: No taste? *Rādhā*-vallabha: It tastes like mustard oil and spices. I think it's mango. Rāmeśvara: Yes, that may be it. *Rādhā*-vallabha: I think it's green mango. Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Rādhā*-vallabha: What do you think? Hari-śauri: Yes, it's mango. Prabhupāda: It's mango? That's nice. Hari-śauri: Tastes like pickled onions. (break) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This verse that we were studying yesterday: "You are fit to propagate the cult of devotional service. Therefore gradually hear all the truths about it from Me. I shall tell you about them." Prabhupāda: This is the . . . (break) . . . to see the newest sanitary condition. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Such an important country. So nasty everywhere, park, street. What is there? This is not good sign. In other cities, you see so neat and clean. Washington, even that parkway, so neat and clean. Why this city is neglected? Los Angeles also, neat and clean. Which other cities we went? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Detroit. Prabhupāda: Detroit is . . . Detroit is also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That park was a little dirty also. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Beer cans and . . . Prabhupāda: This is national degradation. Every state full of garbage, litters. Not only now, I was living here . . . (indistinct) . . . the last ten years. At least I have seen. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of the parents of the devotees who came the other day, they said they went to Vṛndāvana, and the gentleman who brought those pictures, photographs in Washington . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . he said he was surprised how clean Vṛndāvana was. Prabhupāda: Mean, even the poorest man's house you go in the village, you'll find everything neat and clean. At least the kitchen and eating, very neat and clean. Climatic condition is also nice. Almost all the year there is sunshine. Only during rainy season the sun is . . . that is also cooling effect. After summer season, the rainy season covering, there is enjoyable cooling. Now everywhere . . . (end) (Conversation with Drstadyumna's Parents) Rāmeśvara: If we have any qualification, it is from you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: *It is bhagavad*-bhakti which makes one qualified. Rāmeśvara: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-bhakti is so nice that one becomes qualified. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now, things are becoming graver. Very soberly consider, and do the needful. It may not be broken. Always keep in mind. We are growing; There will be so many troubles, that's a fact, that it must be very gravely think also. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So the main editor is impressed? Rāmeśvara: Yes. We took him to the restaurant, and he ate the prasādam; *he liked it. And he asked some very good questions also of myself and Bali*-mardana. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Rāmeśvara: I think he has taken so many notes. He was . . . he knows the system of shorthand, so he was writing everything you said. Prabhupāda: Hah. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every word. Prabhupāda: Expert at everything. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Journalist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's a journalist. Prabhupāda: Unless one is expert journalist, he cannot . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . be editor. Prabhupāda: Be editor. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (referring to a reporter who had interviewed Śrīla Prabhupāda previously) That girl, she was not so . . . Hari-śauri: She wasn't even good for a neophyte. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking that you might talk about the thirty*-four-ounce brain. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Rāmeśvara: That is the biggest controversy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you had said that, it would have created a controversy in the room. Satsvarūpa: They think that is very unscientific statement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And very unfair. Prabhupāda: No, just see. One who says unfair, all right, let me cut your brain and we'll see. (laughter) I will show you. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the experiment—we will cut your head. Rāmeśvara: He asked me about, um . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should go. Prabhupāda, he's holding up the . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? All right. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause) Devotee (4): Two different types of paper, Śrīla Prabhupāda. For our printing the books in . . . (Dṛṣṭadyumna arrives with his parents) Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mrs. McDonough: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mr. McDonough: Your Divine Grace. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is my father and my mother, and this is Māyeśvara's father and mother. Prabhupāda: (laughing) So you are fortunate, you have got such devotee son. Mrs. McDonough: Thank you. Prabhupāda: They . . . he'll do the best service to the family by becoming devotee. By his activities you will also be delivered. Mr. McDonough: Yes. Prabhupāda: God is so kind that he delivers the father and mother, his father, mother, even though they have not done any . . . it is special concession. Just like the government, if a soldier dies in the battlefield, the government takes care of the whole family. Is it not? Similarly, anyone who has become a devotee, Kṛṣṇa takes care of the whole family. Mr. McDonough: That's reassuring. I think I need help, sir. (laughter) Well, we feel our son is very fortunate to be so active and involved here. Prabhupāda: Unless you are fortunate, how you can get such fortunate son? You are also fortunate. Mrs. McDonough: How long are you going to be in New York City? Prabhupāda: About a week more. *Mrs. McDonough: Uh*-huh. And where will you go from here? Prabhupāda: London. Mrs. McDonough: London. Are you traveling all the time? Prabhupāda: Yes, practically. *Dṛṣṭadyumna: And although he's traveling constantly and giving so much advice, he's written all these books. Śrīla Prabhupāda, our parents have read your Bhagavad*-gītā . My mother especially, she makes many notes and underlines. Prabhupāda: How do you like it? Mrs. McDonough: I like it very . . . it gives me a great deal to think about, and, ah, some I don't quite understand, because I think you need instructions, you need someone . . . Prabhupāda: What is that point? Mrs. McDonough: . . . and they can explain . . . Prabhupāda: Just take the point from the book. What is that point? Hari-śauri: If you like, if there is any question you can remember now, you can ask Prabhupāda. Mrs. McDonough: Well, right at this moment I can't . . . I read it every, about once every month I'll pick it up and read, and . . . you can't . . . I read just a little at a time. And I try to understand. I get sometimes confused, over the Arjuna and the fighting and justifying war. That seems to conflict with your principle of peace. And that confuses me, because there's a great deal of fighting and interplay among the Deity, and yet in the end they're forgiven by Kṛṣṇa. And I wonder what did they do to deserve forgiveness. That confuses me. Prabhupāda: I claim forgiveness? Hari-śauri: She can't underst . . . our Kṛṣṇa consciousness policy is live peaceful life, so she cannot understand how Arjuna could be considered a devotee and be favored by Kṛṣṇa when he's fighting on the battlefield, when he has to fight his relatives. Prabhupāda: No. He, as devotee, he did not like to fight with his relatives. Mrs. McDonough: Aha. Prabhupāda: Do you remember that point? (to devotee) Find out. Hari-śauri: Hmm. There's this section here: "Sin will overcome us if we slay such aggressors. Therefore it is not proper for us to kill the sons of Dhṛtarāṣṭra and our friends. What should we gain, O Kṛṣṇa, husband of the goddess of fortune, and how could we be happy by killing our own kinsmen?" Mrs. McDonough: So that was the point. Hari-śauri: Hmm. It is Arjuna had that doubt himself. Prabhupāda: So, so your point, that how a devotee can be engaged . . . he was not willing to engage in fighting. Devotee is always very kind and merciful. The devotee does not like to fight. But when there is need of fighting, one has to, even though one does not like. Just like the government wants somebody to be hanged. That does not mean that government is unkind to that person, is it? When a man is ordered by the government that, "This man should be hanged," does it mean the government is unkind to him? Dṛṣṭadyumna: You follow? Mrs. McDonough: No, I don't quite understand. Dṛṣṭadyumna: In other words, if government orders a man to be hanged . . . Mrs. McDonough: Hmm. Dṛṣṭadyumna: . . . does that mean that the government is unkind to that man? Mrs. McDonough: Well, it depends on what he ordered him to be hanged for. Why was he ordered? What was the reason for him being ordered? Dṛṣṭadyumna: So their question is . . . Prabhupāda: So anyway, government is authority. There must be sufficient reason; otherwise why government should order some of the citizens to be hanged? Government is not partial—the government is very kind to somebody and rude to some other. That is not government's policy. But still, government orders that, "This man should be hanged." Why? Mr. McDonough: Well, obviously for something he did. Prabhupāda: Hah? Yes. That is justice. The high court judge, he gives decree to somebody that, "This man must get one million dollars." And he gives another judgment that "This man should be hanged." Is the high court judge prejudiced? Mr. McDonough: No, but it has some responsibility. Prabhupāda: It is justice. It is justice. When you understand this point, that this high court judge is distributing justice, then he's above criticism. Mr. McDonough: For the common good. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. McDonough: For the common good. Prabhupāda: Common good. So we should not study simply by the external feature; we must know what is behind this judgment. High court judge does not require to be unjust to somebody—otherwise his name, "Justice," is useless. So God's business is: Any government, either you take this little government or this big government, there are two things: to give protection to the honest and to give punishment to the dishonest. That is required for the matter of justice. (aside) Go on. Hari-śauri: "In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Hari-śauri: "According to the Bhagavad*-gītā , a sādhu , or holy man, is a man in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. A person may appear to be irreligious, but if he has the qualifications of Kṛṣṇa consciousness wholly and fully, he is to be understood to be a sādhu . And duṣkṛtām applies to one who does not care for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Such miscreants, or duṣkṛtām , are described as foolish and the lowest of mankind, even though they may be decorated with mundane education, whereas another person who is one hundred percent engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is accepted as a sādhu , even though such a person may neither be learned nor well cultured. As far as the atheistic are concerned, it is not necessary for the Supreme Lord to appear as He is to destroy them, as He did with the demons Rāvaṇa and Kaṁsa. The Lord has many agents who are quite competent to vanquish demons. But the Lord especially descends to appease His unalloyed devotees, who are always harassed by the demoniac. The demon harasses the devotee, even though the latter may happen to be his kin. Although Prahlāda Mahārāja was the son of Hiraṇyakaśipu, he was nonetheless persecuted by his father; although Devakī, the mother of Kṛṣṇa, was the sister of Kaṁsa, she and her husband Vasudeva were persecuted only because Kṛṣṇa was to be born of them. So Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared primarily to deliver Devakī rather than to kill Kaṁsa, but both were performed simultaneously. Therefore it is said here that to deliver the devotee and vanquish the demon miscreants, the Lord appears in different incarnations. *"In Caitanya*-caritāmṛta of Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, the following verses summarize these principles of incarnation: "The avatāra , or incarnation of God, descends from the kingdom of God for material manifestation. And the particular form of the Personality of Godhead who so descends is called an incarnation, or avatāra . Such incarnations are situated in the spiritual world, the kingdom of God. When they descend to the material creation, they assume the name avatāra . "There are different kinds of avatāras , such as puruṣāvatāras . . ." Prabhupāda: Avatāra means "One who comes down." Go on. *Hari-śauri: "There are various kinds of avatāras , such as puruṣāvatāra, guṇāvatāra, līlāvatāra, śakty-āveśa avatāra, manvantara*-avatāra and yugāvatāra —all appearing on schedule all over the universe. But Lord Kṛṣṇa is the primeval Lord, the fountainhead of all avatāras . Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa descends for the specific purpose of mitigating the anxieties of the pure devotees, who are very anxious to see Him in His original Vṛndāvana pastimes. Therefore, the prime purpose of the Kṛṣṇa avatāra is to satisfy His unalloyed devotees. *"The Lord says that He incarnates Himself in every millennium. This indicates that He incarnates also in the Age of Kali. As stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , the incarnation in the age of Kali is Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who spread the worship of Kṛṣṇa by the saṅkīrtana movement (congregational chanting of the holy names) and spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout India. He predicted that this culture of saṅkīrtana would be broadcast all over the world, from town to town and village to village. Lord Caitanya, as the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, is described secretly but not directly in the confidential parts of the revealed scriptures, such as the Upaniṣads, Mahābhārata, Bhāgavatam , etc. The devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa are much attracted by the saṅkīrtana movement of Lord Caitanya. This avatāra of the Lord does not kill the miscreants, but He delivers them by the causeless mercy of the Lord." Mrs. McDonough: I have a question. Why was the school that you had in Texas moved to India? Prabhupāda: It is not. It is there. Mrs. McDonough: It is still in Texas? Hari-śauri: Yes. It's just that rather than have one central school, now we have more regional schools in various parts of the world as well as America. Mrs. McDonough: Oh. So the school is still in Texas, then? Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Small scale. Mrs. McDonough: I see. Oh, was it originally a big school here in the United States? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Right. There was one school for all the children. Mrs. McDonough: Oh, I see. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Now we have schools on our farms. Mrs. McDonough: So the children of the . . . Prabhupāda: Big, big scale, the government imposes so many rules and regulations that perhaps it is impossible. Therefore we are keeping small scale. Mrs. McDonough: So about how many students would you have in Texas now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Students are there; they are distributed now. And Texas is also going on. Because American government, they, for schools . . . these . . . what is it called? Dormitory? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, they require dormitory standards. Prabhupāda: Yes, they prescribe that, "It should be like this, it should be like this . . ." This way . . . so many standards. Therefore we have reduced the scale. Not large scale, but small scale. Mrs. McDonough: Must be . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You have been in Texas? Mr. McDonough: Yes, Dallas. Prabhupāda: You have been there? No? Mrs. McDonough: No, I haven't been. I was just wondering how many students you have. Hari-śauri: Twenty; twenty or thirty. Something like that. Dṛṣṭadyumna: We are operating a school on our farm in Pennsylvania. There is also one on the farm in West Virginia. Mr. McDonough: I was wondering why . . . I know you sent people down to Madison Square Garden last night, and they're going down there again tonight, and they're up there at the Yankee Stadium . . . and in this morning's paper I thought you got a very bad press, because they lumped you in with hippies and lippies and everything else. And what is your purpose in sending devotees to rallies? Prabhupāda: Which paper? Dṛṣṭadyumna: I don't know. I never saw it. Hari-śauri: Which paper is that? Mr. McDonough: In the Times this morning. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Oh. Mr. McDonough: The Times this morning. They said that the lippies and the hippies and the Hare Kṛṣṇas were down there yelling obscenities and everything else now. Dṛṣṭadyumna: We weren't yelling obscenities. Mr. McDonough: No, I'm saying. But this is, this is the kind of press you got. I was wondering what you are trying to accomplish by sending the devotees . . . Dṛṣṭadyumna: Well, I think that it will change tonight, because we actually had a very good interview on the TV, with one of our leading devotees. And tonight they've invited us to come back, and all three networks are going to perform . . . are going to film our chanting. Mr. McDonough: Yes. Mrs. McDonough: Tonight? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. Mrs. McDonough: On TV tonight? What time? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yeah, well I don't know for sure what time it will be shown. On all three stations. *Mr. McDonough: And it will probably be re*-broadcast. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yeah, sometimes they lump us in with all the other groups. Mr. McDonough: That's what I say. You get a very bad press that way. Dṛṣṭadyumna: But those who are actually sincere will understand that this is just bad press. *Mr. McDonough: Mm*-hmm. I've got a copy of the paper downstairs. You'd better get the article, find out who has the byline, get a hold of them and get a little instruction . . . Hari-śauri: This is the becoming our policy now, because sometimes the press are not very fair to us. Mrs. McDonough: Well, I would say that is a very good example. Hari-śauri: So we'd like to write back and explain what we're actually doing. It's very difficult, because of the spiritual nature of the movement, it's very difficult for a materialist to understand what we're actually doing. So sometimes they put us contained within another movement. Mr. McDonough: Well, I would like to understand. What is your purpose for going to rallies like that? Dṛṣṭadyumna: We are going there to perform this saṅkīrtana , distributing free food that's offered in the temple to the Deity, because there is spiritual benefit derived from eating this food. And also . . . Mr. McDonough: To the people who are there. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, the cookies and sweets. *Mr. McDonough: Mm*-hmm. Dṛṣṭadyumna: . . . and also performing this chanting, which actually, if one listens, is very beautifully done with cymbals and drums and many voices. Its like in a church choir, very beautiful chanting the names of God. Because if anyone hears these names of God it will cleanse the heart, and also this, we are giving to all the Democrat delegates and all the people there literatures that explain our movement. Mr. McDonough: Well, I think you write them, and get back to the paper. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Actually, in New York City I think is the most favorable place in the world for us. We just received from the police a letter wishing to reprint an article with His Divine Grace and an interview with the police chief in Chicago. *Mr. McDonough: Mm*-hmm. Dṛṣṭadyumna: They want to now print this in their police journal for all the New York policemen, because the comments His Divine Grace made on how the policemen could stop crime in society were very much appreciated by the police. So we are . . . Prabhupāda: They have published that? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, they will publish that article, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where is that? Hari-śauri: I think once . . . I think you saw that before. They asked for permission to reprint that article. Maybe in Hawaii. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja had . . . Dṛṣṭadyumna: Mostly in Chicago. Mr. McDonough: It was in Back to Godhead. I think I read it. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yeah, you read the article. So the local policemen here, the editor of the policemen's paper, he has read that article, and he wants to print it now in his journal for all the policemen in New York. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Dṛṣṭadyumna: And actually the policemen here, they like the devotees. They never harass us, and even though sometimes we hand out food without permit, they don't bother us. They are very friendly towards us. Mrs. McDonough: Is there any way that you can get on good terms with a reporter so that whenever you have publicity, you can go straight to this person, not that you are going to get . . . Dṛṣṭadyumna: We have hired a public relations firm, which is . . . just like there is a Newsweek reporter coming . . . or came? Hari-śauri: Came today, and Newsday also. Mrs. McDonough: And he is going to cover your parade? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Right. Oh, the parade will be covered by all the TV stations and newspapers. So I think by this counterpropaganda, that will minimize the effect of these little . . . Mr. McDonough: Yes. You have to combat the tendency for people who lump the Moonies and the this and the that together, you know. Everybody asks me how does the Kṛṣṇa movement feel about the Moonie movement. *Hari-śauri: Yes. At the moment they're thinking we are some cult, they don't understand the spiritual value. This is not some concoction. Just like Śrīla Prabhupāda always quotes from Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . And he's not translating these books as a pastime; the purports there are very serious. If anyone reads them, then they will understand that this is very serious and that actually there is some real spiritual benefit. *Dṛṣṭadyumna: You saw that book, "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is an Authorized Movement"—I just gave my parents a pamphlet—and you saw all the recommendations from all the professors, for these books. So that immediately separates us from all these other groups which have no substantial philosophy or any type of authority or historical cultural reference. They are just modern*-day creations of some . . . who knows what their motivations are, these men. *Mrs. McDonough: Well, there was an article in Readers Digest within the last eighteen months or so, and I'm not sure, but I believe they listed four counter*-cultures. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Four groups, right. Mrs. McDonough: . . . and I believe that the Hare Kṛṣṇas were listed with the Moonies. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yeah, we were listed with the four. But I think as these groups drop by the way . . . Prabhupāda: We have got standing orders for our books from so many libraries. Hari-śauri: This is the one thing about our movement that is different from everyone else, that every leading professor in every top university in the world is accepting standing orders of Śrīla Prabhupāda's books, because they very much appreciate the scholarship and the learning and the wisdom and the practical value of these books. Mrs. McDonough: But these books are all different translations, aren't they? *Hari-śauri: Hmm. Just like this is the Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . You can also get many other versions of Bhagavad-gītā , but Śrīla Prabhupāda's called it Bhagavad-gītā As It Is because he's a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, so he can actually explain what Kṛṣṇa's intentions are in the Bhagavad-gītā when He speaks it. Whereas a person who has his own ulterior motives, he simply changes everything that Kṛṣṇa says to prepare his own philosophy. He utilizes the fame of the Bhagavad-gītā as a philosophical text so that he can become a famous philosopher or a politician or whatever, like this. But Prabhupāda's presenting the Gītā as it is. It means that if you read it, you will become a devotee, and that's practical, 'cause before Prabhupāda came there were no devotees. Six hundred editions of Bhagavad-gītā in the West, and not one single devotee ever came from any of them. But as soon as Prabhupāda started to speak what it actually was, immediately so many hundreds of devotees are coming, and like that. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Also, there is a difference in the quality of these disciples. These other groups, they don't have any kind of structure or discipline, whereas Śrīla Prabhupāda has given us four regulative principles to follow, rising early in the morning . . . they . . . none of these groups have the strength to follow any type of discipline. So gradually we see they're falling by the wayside more and more. And we have practical experience when we are traveling on the buses distributing books, we are going to distribute now one million magazines in the coming six months, and about over three hundred thousand big books—just a hundred men. So the people are well receiving this literature. The other groups, when they approach, they are simply taking from the people some money. But we're giving literature, valuable literatures, at almost at cost, and people actually appreciate the difference between our presentation and others simply with materialistic motivation. Prabhupāda: Our mission we are presenting in writing, not that we are saying some superfluous that is entering this ear and going out that ear. No. Our proposition is recorded; you can talk on that basis of that recording. Hari-śauri: Even in India, one of the criticisms used to be that we weren't . . . we were established in the West but we weren't there in India, which is our roots. But just in the last three months over two hundred standing orders have been taken in all the Indian universities. So this is substantial evidence that even the Indian scholars are appreciating. Actually, we found in the last two years that the whole Indian population is becoming very appreciative of the activities of ISKCON. And they're accepting Śrīla Prabhupāda as being an actual spiritual master, not a cheater, not a fake guru . So we . . . as far as ourselves are concerned, we know that in the coming years, as Dṛṣṭadyumna was saying, gradually we'll be separated from everyone else, because everyone will understand this is actual . . . this is actual benefit here; it is not some cheating bogus religion or some cult, like that. It is practical benefit. Mr. McDonough: Time is on your side. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. *Mr. McDonough: It's a long*-cycle product life. (laughter) Well, I know His Divine Grace is very busy . . . (indistinct) . . . and I hope you enjoy your stay in our country, and I'm glad that our sons are associated with you. And I hope they follow you and emulate you as they go through life. *Prabhupāda: I am much obliged to the American boys for their co*-operation. Mrs. McDonough: I thank you for being . . . Dṛṣṭadyumna: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mr. McDonough: Goodbye, sir. Prabhupāda: Give this garland, one garland, to your father. Mr. McDonough: Oh, reminds me of when I was in India. (laughter) Hari-śauri: Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mr. McDonough: . . . (indistinct) Dṛṣṭadyumna: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: I'll do it. You go down . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, go with your father. A good father. *Hari-śauri: Very nice. He's very favorable. I think all the parents, when they actually see their sons, they're becoming purified, they can understand that . . . especially someone like Dṛṣṭadyumna's father, he's such a very important . . . considered very important man in society. That Seagram's wine and whiskey company—very, very big, biggest in the world. And he also is the president of some big business organization which stretches out all over the world. He's very influential man. It's very . . . (laughs) As soon as we quote the Bhagavad*-gītā or the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , then immediately everyone has to listen. Even they may have some objection or some doubt, as soon as we quote the books, then everything is finished, our position is established. (pause) Hari-śauri: Now we have to make strong propaganda against the press. Prabhupāda: You cannot make propaganda against the press. Hari-śauri: Well, not against them, but to correct them. (end) (Conversation with Drstadyumna's Parents) Rāmeśvara: If we have any qualification, it is from you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: *It is bhagavad*-bhakti which makes one qualified. Rāmeśvara: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-bhakti is so nice that one becomes qualified. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now, things are becoming graver. Very soberly consider, and do the needful. It may not be broken. Always keep in mind. We are growing; There will be so many troubles, that's a fact, that it must be very gravely think also. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So the main editor is impressed? Rāmeśvara: Yes. We took him to the restaurant, and he ate the prasādam; *he liked it. And he asked some very good questions also of myself and Bali*-mardana. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Rāmeśvara: I think he has taken so many notes. He was . . . he knows the system of shorthand, so he was writing everything you said. Prabhupāda: Hah. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every word. Prabhupāda: Expert at everything. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Journalist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's a journalist. Prabhupāda: Unless one is expert journalist, he cannot . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . be editor. Prabhupāda: Be editor. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (referring to a reporter who had interviewed Śrīla Prabhupāda previously) That girl, she was not so . . . Hari-śauri: She wasn't even good for a neophyte. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking that you might talk about the thirty*-four-ounce brain. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Rāmeśvara: That is the biggest controversy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you had said that, it would have created a controversy in the room. Satsvarūpa: They think that is very unscientific statement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And very unfair. Prabhupāda: No, just see. One who says unfair, all right, let me cut your brain and we'll see. (laughter) I will show you. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the experiment—we will cut your head. Rāmeśvara: He asked me about, um . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should go. Prabhupāda, he's holding up the . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? All right. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause) Devotee (4): Two different types of paper, Śrīla Prabhupāda. For our printing the books in . . . (Dṛṣṭadyumna arrives with his parents) Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mrs. McDonough: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mr. McDonough: Your Divine Grace. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is my father and my mother, and this is Māyeśvara's father and mother. Prabhupāda: (laughing) So you are fortunate, you have got such devotee son. Mrs. McDonough: Thank you. Prabhupāda: They . . . he'll do the best service to the family by becoming devotee. By his activities you will also be delivered. Mr. McDonough: Yes. Prabhupāda: God is so kind that he delivers the father and mother, his father, mother, even though they have not done any . . . it is special concession. Just like the government, if a soldier dies in the battlefield, the government takes care of the whole family. Is it not? Similarly, anyone who has become a devotee, Kṛṣṇa takes care of the whole family. Mr. McDonough: That's reassuring. I think I need help, sir. (laughter) Well, we feel our son is very fortunate to be so active and involved here. Prabhupāda: Unless you are fortunate, how you can get such fortunate son? You are also fortunate. Mrs. McDonough: How long are you going to be in New York City? Prabhupāda: About a week more. *Mrs. McDonough: Uh*-huh. And where will you go from here? Prabhupāda: London. Mrs. McDonough: London. Are you traveling all the time? Prabhupāda: Yes, practically. *Dṛṣṭadyumna: And although he's traveling constantly and giving so much advice, he's written all these books. Śrīla Prabhupāda, our parents have read your Bhagavad*-gītā . My mother especially, she makes many notes and underlines. Prabhupāda: How do you like it? Mrs. McDonough: I like it very . . . it gives me a great deal to think about, and, ah, some I don't quite understand, because I think you need instructions, you need someone . . . Prabhupāda: What is that point? Mrs. McDonough: . . . and they can explain . . . Prabhupāda: Just take the point from the book. What is that point? Hari-śauri: If you like, if there is any question you can remember now, you can ask Prabhupāda. Mrs. McDonough: Well, right at this moment I can't . . . I read it every, about once every month I'll pick it up and read, and . . . you can't . . . I read just a little at a time. And I try to understand. I get sometimes confused, over the Arjuna and the fighting and justifying war. That seems to conflict with your principle of peace. And that confuses me, because there's a great deal of fighting and interplay among the Deity, and yet in the end they're forgiven by Kṛṣṇa. And I wonder what did they do to deserve forgiveness. That confuses me. Prabhupāda: I claim forgiveness? Hari-śauri: She can't underst . . . our Kṛṣṇa consciousness policy is live peaceful life, so she cannot understand how Arjuna could be considered a devotee and be favored by Kṛṣṇa when he's fighting on the battlefield, when he has to fight his relatives. Prabhupāda: No. He, as devotee, he did not like to fight with his relatives. Mrs. McDonough: Aha. Prabhupāda: Do you remember that point? (to devotee) Find out. Hari-śauri: Hmm. There's this section here: "Sin will overcome us if we slay such aggressors. Therefore it is not proper for us to kill the sons of Dhṛtarāṣṭra and our friends. What should we gain, O Kṛṣṇa, husband of the goddess of fortune, and how could we be happy by killing our own kinsmen?" Mrs. McDonough: So that was the point. Hari-śauri: Hmm. It is Arjuna had that doubt himself. Prabhupāda: So, so your point, that how a devotee can be engaged . . . he was not willing to engage in fighting. Devotee is always very kind and merciful. The devotee does not like to fight. But when there is need of fighting, one has to, even though one does not like. Just like the government wants somebody to be hanged. That does not mean that government is unkind to that person, is it? When a man is ordered by the government that, "This man should be hanged," does it mean the government is unkind to him? Dṛṣṭadyumna: You follow? Mrs. McDonough: No, I don't quite understand. Dṛṣṭadyumna: In other words, if government orders a man to be hanged . . . Mrs. McDonough: Hmm. Dṛṣṭadyumna: . . . does that mean that the government is unkind to that man? Mrs. McDonough: Well, it depends on what he ordered him to be hanged for. Why was he ordered? What was the reason for him being ordered? Dṛṣṭadyumna: So their question is . . . Prabhupāda: So anyway, government is authority. There must be sufficient reason; otherwise why government should order some of the citizens to be hanged? Government is not partial—the government is very kind to somebody and rude to some other. That is not government's policy. But still, government orders that, "This man should be hanged." Why? Mr. McDonough: Well, obviously for something he did. Prabhupāda: Hah? Yes. That is justice. The high court judge, he gives decree to somebody that, "This man must get one million dollars." And he gives another judgment that "This man should be hanged." Is the high court judge prejudiced? Mr. McDonough: No, but it has some responsibility. Prabhupāda: It is justice. It is justice. When you understand this point, that this high court judge is distributing justice, then he's above criticism. Mr. McDonough: For the common good. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. McDonough: For the common good. Prabhupāda: Common good. So we should not study simply by the external feature; we must know what is behind this judgment. High court judge does not require to be unjust to somebody—otherwise his name, "Justice," is useless. So God's business is: Any government, either you take this little government or this big government, there are two things: to give protection to the honest and to give punishment to the dishonest. That is required for the matter of justice. (aside) Go on. Hari-śauri: "In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Hari-śauri: "According to the Bhagavad*-gītā , a sādhu , or holy man, is a man in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. A person may appear to be irreligious, but if he has the qualifications of Kṛṣṇa consciousness wholly and fully, he is to be understood to be a sādhu . And duṣkṛtām applies to one who does not care for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Such miscreants, or duṣkṛtām , are described as foolish and the lowest of mankind, even though they may be decorated with mundane education, whereas another person who is one hundred percent engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is accepted as a sādhu , even though such a person may neither be learned nor well cultured. As far as the atheistic are concerned, it is not necessary for the Supreme Lord to appear as He is to destroy them, as He did with the demons Rāvaṇa and Kaṁsa. The Lord has many agents who are quite competent to vanquish demons. But the Lord especially descends to appease His unalloyed devotees, who are always harassed by the demoniac. The demon harasses the devotee, even though the latter may happen to be his kin. Although Prahlāda Mahārāja was the son of Hiraṇyakaśipu, he was nonetheless persecuted by his father; although Devakī, the mother of Kṛṣṇa, was the sister of Kaṁsa, she and her husband Vasudeva were persecuted only because Kṛṣṇa was to be born of them. So Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared primarily to deliver Devakī rather than to kill Kaṁsa, but both were performed simultaneously. Therefore it is said here that to deliver the devotee and vanquish the demon miscreants, the Lord appears in different incarnations. *"In Caitanya*-caritāmṛta of Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, the following verses summarize these principles of incarnation: "The avatāra , or incarnation of God, descends from the kingdom of God for material manifestation. And the particular form of the Personality of Godhead who so descends is called an incarnation, or avatāra . Such incarnations are situated in the spiritual world, the kingdom of God. When they descend to the material creation, they assume the name avatāra . "There are different kinds of avatāras , such as puruṣāvatāras . . ." Prabhupāda: Avatāra means "One who comes down." Go on. *Hari-śauri: "There are various kinds of avatāras , such as puruṣāvatāra, guṇāvatāra, līlāvatāra, śakty-āveśa avatāra, manvantara*-avatāra and yugāvatāra —all appearing on schedule all over the universe. But Lord Kṛṣṇa is the primeval Lord, the fountainhead of all avatāras . Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa descends for the specific purpose of mitigating the anxieties of the pure devotees, who are very anxious to see Him in His original Vṛndāvana pastimes. Therefore, the prime purpose of the Kṛṣṇa avatāra is to satisfy His unalloyed devotees. *"The Lord says that He incarnates Himself in every millennium. This indicates that He incarnates also in the Age of Kali. As stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , the incarnation in the age of Kali is Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who spread the worship of Kṛṣṇa by the saṅkīrtana movement (congregational chanting of the holy names) and spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout India. He predicted that this culture of saṅkīrtana would be broadcast all over the world, from town to town and village to village. Lord Caitanya, as the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, is described secretly but not directly in the confidential parts of the revealed scriptures, such as the Upaniṣads, Mahābhārata, Bhāgavatam , etc. The devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa are much attracted by the saṅkīrtana movement of Lord Caitanya. This avatāra of the Lord does not kill the miscreants, but He delivers them by the causeless mercy of the Lord." Mrs. McDonough: I have a question. Why was the school that you had in Texas moved to India? Prabhupāda: It is not. It is there. Mrs. McDonough: It is still in Texas? Hari-śauri: Yes. It's just that rather than have one central school, now we have more regional schools in various parts of the world as well as America. Mrs. McDonough: Oh. So the school is still in Texas, then? Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Small scale. Mrs. McDonough: I see. Oh, was it originally a big school here in the United States? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Right. There was one school for all the children. Mrs. McDonough: Oh, I see. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Now we have schools on our farms. Mrs. McDonough: So the children of the . . . Prabhupāda: Big, big scale, the government imposes so many rules and regulations that perhaps it is impossible. Therefore we are keeping small scale. Mrs. McDonough: So about how many students would you have in Texas now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Students are there; they are distributed now. And Texas is also going on. Because American government, they, for schools . . . these . . . what is it called? Dormitory? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, they require dormitory standards. Prabhupāda: Yes, they prescribe that, "It should be like this, it should be like this . . ." This way . . . so many standards. Therefore we have reduced the scale. Not large scale, but small scale. Mrs. McDonough: Must be . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You have been in Texas? Mr. McDonough: Yes, Dallas. Prabhupāda: You have been there? No? Mrs. McDonough: No, I haven't been. I was just wondering how many students you have. Hari-śauri: Twenty; twenty or thirty. Something like that. Dṛṣṭadyumna: We are operating a school on our farm in Pennsylvania. There is also one on the farm in West Virginia. Mr. McDonough: I was wondering why . . . I know you sent people down to Madison Square Garden last night, and they're going down there again tonight, and they're up there at the Yankee Stadium . . . and in this morning's paper I thought you got a very bad press, because they lumped you in with hippies and lippies and everything else. And what is your purpose in sending devotees to rallies? Prabhupāda: Which paper? Dṛṣṭadyumna: I don't know. I never saw it. Hari-śauri: Which paper is that? Mr. McDonough: In the Times this morning. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Oh. Mr. McDonough: The Times this morning. They said that the lippies and the hippies and the Hare Kṛṣṇas were down there yelling obscenities and everything else now. Dṛṣṭadyumna: We weren't yelling obscenities. Mr. McDonough: No, I'm saying. But this is, this is the kind of press you got. I was wondering what you are trying to accomplish by sending the devotees . . . Dṛṣṭadyumna: Well, I think that it will change tonight, because we actually had a very good interview on the TV, with one of our leading devotees. And tonight they've invited us to come back, and all three networks are going to perform . . . are going to film our chanting. Mr. McDonough: Yes. Mrs. McDonough: Tonight? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. Mrs. McDonough: On TV tonight? What time? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yeah, well I don't know for sure what time it will be shown. On all three stations. *Mr. McDonough: And it will probably be re*-broadcast. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yeah, sometimes they lump us in with all the other groups. Mr. McDonough: That's what I say. You get a very bad press that way. Dṛṣṭadyumna: But those who are actually sincere will understand that this is just bad press. *Mr. McDonough: Mm*-hmm. I've got a copy of the paper downstairs. You'd better get the article, find out who has the byline, get a hold of them and get a little instruction . . . Hari-śauri: This is the becoming our policy now, because sometimes the press are not very fair to us. Mrs. McDonough: Well, I would say that is a very good example. Hari-śauri: So we'd like to write back and explain what we're actually doing. It's very difficult, because of the spiritual nature of the movement, it's very difficult for a materialist to understand what we're actually doing. So sometimes they put us contained within another movement. Mr. McDonough: Well, I would like to understand. What is your purpose for going to rallies like that? Dṛṣṭadyumna: We are going there to perform this saṅkīrtana , distributing free food that's offered in the temple to the Deity, because there is spiritual benefit derived from eating this food. And also . . . Mr. McDonough: To the people who are there. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, the cookies and sweets. *Mr. McDonough: Mm*-hmm. Dṛṣṭadyumna: . . . and also performing this chanting, which actually, if one listens, is very beautifully done with cymbals and drums and many voices. Its like in a church choir, very beautiful chanting the names of God. Because if anyone hears these names of God it will cleanse the heart, and also this, we are giving to all the Democrat delegates and all the people there literatures that explain our movement. Mr. McDonough: Well, I think you write them, and get back to the paper. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Actually, in New York City I think is the most favorable place in the world for us. We just received from the police a letter wishing to reprint an article with His Divine Grace and an interview with the police chief in Chicago. *Mr. McDonough: Mm*-hmm. Dṛṣṭadyumna: They want to now print this in their police journal for all the New York policemen, because the comments His Divine Grace made on how the policemen could stop crime in society were very much appreciated by the police. So we are . . . Prabhupāda: They have published that? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, they will publish that article, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where is that? Hari-śauri: I think once . . . I think you saw that before. They asked for permission to reprint that article. Maybe in Hawaii. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja had . . . Dṛṣṭadyumna: Mostly in Chicago. Mr. McDonough: It was in Back to Godhead. I think I read it. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yeah, you read the article. So the local policemen here, the editor of the policemen's paper, he has read that article, and he wants to print it now in his journal for all the policemen in New York. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Dṛṣṭadyumna: And actually the policemen here, they like the devotees. They never harass us, and even though sometimes we hand out food without permit, they don't bother us. They are very friendly towards us. Mrs. McDonough: Is there any way that you can get on good terms with a reporter so that whenever you have publicity, you can go straight to this person, not that you are going to get . . . Dṛṣṭadyumna: We have hired a public relations firm, which is . . . just like there is a Newsweek reporter coming . . . or came? Hari-śauri: Came today, and Newsday also. Mrs. McDonough: And he is going to cover your parade? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Right. Oh, the parade will be covered by all the TV stations and newspapers. So I think by this counterpropaganda, that will minimize the effect of these little . . . Mr. McDonough: Yes. You have to combat the tendency for people who lump the Moonies and the this and the that together, you know. Everybody asks me how does the Kṛṣṇa movement feel about the Moonie movement. *Hari-śauri: Yes. At the moment they're thinking we are some cult, they don't understand the spiritual value. This is not some concoction. Just like Śrīla Prabhupāda always quotes from Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . And he's not translating these books as a pastime; the purports there are very serious. If anyone reads them, then they will understand that this is very serious and that actually there is some real spiritual benefit. *Dṛṣṭadyumna: You saw that book, "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is an Authorized Movement"—I just gave my parents a pamphlet—and you saw all the recommendations from all the professors, for these books. So that immediately separates us from all these other groups which have no substantial philosophy or any type of authority or historical cultural reference. They are just modern*-day creations of some . . . who knows what their motivations are, these men. *Mrs. McDonough: Well, there was an article in Readers Digest within the last eighteen months or so, and I'm not sure, but I believe they listed four counter*-cultures. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Four groups, right. Mrs. McDonough: . . . and I believe that the Hare Kṛṣṇas were listed with the Moonies. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yeah, we were listed with the four. But I think as these groups drop by the way . . . Prabhupāda: We have got standing orders for our books from so many libraries. Hari-śauri: This is the one thing about our movement that is different from everyone else, that every leading professor in every top university in the world is accepting standing orders of Śrīla Prabhupāda's books, because they very much appreciate the scholarship and the learning and the wisdom and the practical value of these books. Mrs. McDonough: But these books are all different translations, aren't they? *Hari-śauri: Hmm. Just like this is the Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . You can also get many other versions of Bhagavad-gītā , but Śrīla Prabhupāda's called it Bhagavad-gītā As It Is because he's a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, so he can actually explain what Kṛṣṇa's intentions are in the Bhagavad-gītā when He speaks it. Whereas a person who has his own ulterior motives, he simply changes everything that Kṛṣṇa says to prepare his own philosophy. He utilizes the fame of the Bhagavad-gītā as a philosophical text so that he can become a famous philosopher or a politician or whatever, like this. But Prabhupāda's presenting the Gītā as it is. It means that if you read it, you will become a devotee, and that's practical, 'cause before Prabhupāda came there were no devotees. Six hundred editions of Bhagavad-gītā in the West, and not one single devotee ever came from any of them. But as soon as Prabhupāda started to speak what it actually was, immediately so many hundreds of devotees are coming, and like that. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Also, there is a difference in the quality of these disciples. These other groups, they don't have any kind of structure or discipline, whereas Śrīla Prabhupāda has given us four regulative principles to follow, rising early in the morning . . . they . . . none of these groups have the strength to follow any type of discipline. So gradually we see they're falling by the wayside more and more. And we have practical experience when we are traveling on the buses distributing books, we are going to distribute now one million magazines in the coming six months, and about over three hundred thousand big books—just a hundred men. So the people are well receiving this literature. The other groups, when they approach, they are simply taking from the people some money. But we're giving literature, valuable literatures, at almost at cost, and people actually appreciate the difference between our presentation and others simply with materialistic motivation. Prabhupāda: Our mission we are presenting in writing, not that we are saying some superfluous that is entering this ear and going out that ear. No. Our proposition is recorded; you can talk on that basis of that recording. Hari-śauri: Even in India, one of the criticisms used to be that we weren't . . . we were established in the West but we weren't there in India, which is our roots. But just in the last three months over two hundred standing orders have been taken in all the Indian universities. So this is substantial evidence that even the Indian scholars are appreciating. Actually, we found in the last two years that the whole Indian population is becoming very appreciative of the activities of ISKCON. And they're accepting Śrīla Prabhupāda as being an actual spiritual master, not a cheater, not a fake guru . So we . . . as far as ourselves are concerned, we know that in the coming years, as Dṛṣṭadyumna was saying, gradually we'll be separated from everyone else, because everyone will understand this is actual . . . this is actual benefit here; it is not some cheating bogus religion or some cult, like that. It is practical benefit. Mr. McDonough: Time is on your side. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. *Mr. McDonough: It's a long*-cycle product life. (laughter) Well, I know His Divine Grace is very busy . . . (indistinct) . . . and I hope you enjoy your stay in our country, and I'm glad that our sons are associated with you. And I hope they follow you and emulate you as they go through life. *Prabhupāda: I am much obliged to the American boys for their co*-operation. Mrs. McDonough: I thank you for being . . . Dṛṣṭadyumna: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mr. McDonough: Goodbye, sir. Prabhupāda: Give this garland, one garland, to your father. Mr. McDonough: Oh, reminds me of when I was in India. (laughter) Hari-śauri: Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mr. McDonough: . . . (indistinct) Dṛṣṭadyumna: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: I'll do it. You go down . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, go with your father. A good father. *Hari-śauri: Very nice. He's very favorable. I think all the parents, when they actually see their sons, they're becoming purified, they can understand that . . . especially someone like Dṛṣṭadyumna's father, he's such a very important . . . considered very important man in society. That Seagram's wine and whiskey company—very, very big, biggest in the world. And he also is the president of some big business organization which stretches out all over the world. He's very influential man. It's very . . . (laughs) As soon as we quote the Bhagavad*-gītā or the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , then immediately everyone has to listen. Even they may have some objection or some doubt, as soon as we quote the books, then everything is finished, our position is established. (pause) Hari-śauri: Now we have to make strong propaganda against the press. Prabhupāda: You cannot make propaganda against the press. Hari-śauri: Well, not against them, but to correct them. (end) *(Radha*-Damodara bus to Gita-nagari farm) Prabhupāda: You can keep in that room? Hari-śauri: Yes, if there are any visitors that come, we'll play them. The small ones? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: So tomorrow we'll be traveling to the farm and then coming . . . returning Friday morning. And then I think in the afternoon, Friday afternoon, there's the Associated Press are coming, and also this lady from the magazine wanted to come. Prabhupāda: Which lady? Hari-śauri: From this India magazine? This one I just showed. The thing is, Rāmeśvara was thinking it might be too much if you did two interviews straight after each other. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Yes. So we should arrange for her to come another day. Prabhupāda: Where is that magazine? Hari-śauri: Well, they took it out. Prabhupāda: India ? Hari-śauri: You would like to . . .? I'll bring one so you can read. (break) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There is no other seat? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we have another seat for you. Prabhupāda: Only one bus is going? (break) (on bus) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . going about 55 miles an hour. Hari-śauri: (to devotee) If you hold this microphone next to your mouth—don't press that trigger, though—and then I'll put it onto the speaker . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I don't think so. He's just going to read. Devotee: I don't have the . . . (break) Devotee: (testing microphone) Jaya , all glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! All glories to Śrī Guru, Śrī Gaurāṅga! (break) Prabhupāda: . . . what is sun. Sun is situated in one place, everyone can see. But the heat and light, it expands. The heat and light is impersonal, but the sun is personal. Now one can imagine which is important—the heat and light or the sun? Which is important? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The sun is the most important. *Prabhupāda: So why do people give importance to imperson, less important? What is the meaning? The meaning is the fiery place is situated in one place, everyone can see. But the heat, ninety*-three million miles from earth, expands. Because the sunshine is so widely expanded, it does not mean that it is more important than the sun. Go on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (reading) "Lord Kṛṣṇa naturally has three energetic transformations, and these are known as the spiritual potency, the living entity potency and the illusory potency." Viṣṇu-śaktiḥ . . . (break) *"Originally Kṛṣṇa's energy is spiritual and the energy known as the living entity is also spiritual. However, there is another energy called illusion, which consists of fruitive activity. That is the Lord's third potency. For further explanation of this verse, refer to the Ādi*-līlā, Chapter 7, verse 119." "All the creative energies, which are inconceivable to a common man, exists in the Supreme Absolute Truth. These inconceivable energies act in the process of creation, maintenance and annihilation. O chief of the ascetics, just as there are two energies possessed by fire, namely heat and light, these inconceivable creative energies are the natural characteristics of the Absolute Truth." "This is a quotation from the *Viṣṇu Purāṇa*. " "O King, the kṣetrajña-śakti is the living entity. Although he has the facility to live in either the material or spiritual world, he suffers the threefold miseries of material existence because he is influenced by the avidya (nescience) potency, which covers his constitutional position." "This and the following verse are also quoted from the *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* ." Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . tāratamyena vartate . "This living entity covered by the influence of nescience exists in different forms in the material condition. O King, he is thus proportionately freed from the influence of material energy to greater or lesser degrees." Prabhupāda: Inconceivable. That portion reads, what is that written? You read from "inconceivable"? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "All the creative energies which are inconceivable to a common man exist in the Supreme Absolute Truth. These inconceivable energies act in the process of creation, maintenance and annihilation. O chief of the ascetics, just as there are two energies possessed by fire, namely heat and light, these inconceivable creative energies are the natural characteristics of the Absolute Truth." Prabhupāda: That inconceivable energy, the scientists they are trying to conceive. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they can't. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Everyone knows that due to sunshine there are leaves in the trees, green and different colors. Everyone knows, due to the sunshine. But how this sunshine, this heat and light, these things are coming into existence? They are studying, what is called, molecules? Molecules. Hari-śauri: Yes, molecular structure. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Polygons. Prabhupāda: So many things. But they cannot make it. Although they are seeing due to the sunshine these colors are there . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot explain. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (bus now stationary) This electrical system, this one works when you plug the bus in. Like if you are at a campground, then these go on, and these are very bright, fluorescent. And then when traveling, this system works. Therefore we have two separate light switch panels. One is for when we plug into the regular current, and the other one is on the road. The kitchen is very nice. I wanted to show you the kitchen, Prabhupāda. It's a very different kitchen than the one that you saw originally. This is a very big kitchen. Five men can stand there. Very big. Cooking, very convenient. We've improved the buses since the last time you were here. Prabhupāda: Hmm. These scientists, they will not admit that Kṛṣṇa is the original cause . . . (indistinct) . . . they are trying to invent so many things and pacifying their followers, "Wait for millions of years. We will give you all solution." That millions of years will never be fulfilled, and their suffering will never go. That they do not know. Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra (CC Madhya 20.117). This life they make researches, and when they are failure they give bluff, "Wait millions of years." In the meantime he becomes a grub. He has to wait millions and trillions of . . . that's all. Again begin transmigration from grub to plant, plant to this, that, this, that. Stand up for thousands of years as a tree. Then another tree, another thousand, millions. You wanted to wait for millions, then you wait for millions. How long can you wait for . . . in this way, by transmigration. This is their destiny. And in this very life that I am prepared to go back to home, back to Godhead, that path they will not. They will wait millions of years to see their success. This is rascaldom. Wait millions of years. They do not know how they will wait. They will wait this way, again become grub. Then gradual evolution. It will take millions and trillions of years. Then again he will come to human form of life, and again he will say: "Millions of years." This is their intelligence. Hmm? What do you say? Hari-śauri: Why wait? *Bali*-mardana: Kṛṣṇa fulfills everyone's desires. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not wait. Prabhupāda: This is their intelligence, these rascal scientists. Their intelligence is they admit they will wait. But he is eternal, so eternally he must get some body to wait. And if he says that after this life everything finished, then what is the meaning of wait millions of years? If I am going to be finished, you are going to be finished after this life, then there is no question of waiting for millions of years. Who will wait? You are finished, I am finished, then who will wait? Devotee (2): They say they're working for the children in the future, make a better future. Prabhupāda: But you are not going to wait. You are finished. And I am here, I am finished. And the children who will come, they will be finished. Who will wait? Who will wait? Devotee (2): No one. (break) Prabhupāda: Rascals wait for millions of years. So who will wait? Devotee (2): They think in terms of past generations. They see the progress of society from two thousand years or four thousand years, and they think of themselves as a part of that generation, that in the future, "Just see how far we have come from a hundred years." *Prabhupāda: Part of a generation, that's all right. But a generation, so*-called generation, you and me, everything will be finished. So who will wait? That is my point. Devotee (3): What are they waiting for? Prabhupāda: Hmm? You wait or not, you will be finished. Devotee (4): They are thinking that this is pursuit of the truth, that they are trying to theorize. Prabhupāda: Fools will follow you. And wherefrom he is coming with so much intelligence that the truth which you have discovered, somebody will come and catch up. His life, there is no continuation. Then there is no question of accepting your truth. We may not accept your truth. So many questions are there, but they are bluffing. Mūḍha nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). What is going on there? Devotee: We're trying to fix this . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is the science, they will have to wait millions of . . . that is a fact. But how they will have to wait, that these rascals they do not know. They will have to wait in this lower grade of life. Devotee (2): Can a living entity have realization of transmigration without being Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: Hmm? It is very easy, but you are so fool, you cannot understand it. Kṛṣṇa is giving immediately. The child is transmigrating to the boy's body. The soul is from boy's body is going to youthful body. Very plain explanation. But because the brain is so dull, they cannot understand. Under their scientific brain, they have become so rascal that the simple truth they cannot understand. This is their scientific advancement. Hmm? (pause) Prabhupāda: Why we are checked? Stopped? Devotee (2): They are shifting some equipment for cooking. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They consider, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this is the same . . . they have a sense of not changing. That's there because the soul is not changing. Everyone has a sense that they are not changing because the soul is always there. But because they have no information of the soul, sometimes they think that because I have this body as a youth, I have this body as an old man or youthful person, the point is that they consider that it's the same person, the body, it hasn't changed. They stay the same person, simply it has grown, because they have the sense of the same identity. But can it be said . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Grown means the original form is changed. You can call it in a different name, but grown means the original form has changed. We are also changed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So can it be said that one has the same body, or is it a different body? Prabhupāda: Hmm? It is different body. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is different. Prabhupāda: Otherwise why more species coming? It is a different body. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the energy by which one conceives that it's the same body? Is that the false ego, by which he thinks that this is . . . Prabhupāda: No, dull brain. That Darwin's theory is that. Just like we are coming from apartment to this bus. This rascal says that apartment has become bus. That is his foolishness. I am the person from that apartment, I have come to this bus, it is a fact. But he is such a rascal, he says that apartment has become bus. That is the foolishness. How the apartment can become bus? You can say the person who was in the apartment, he has come into this bus. That is a reasonable understanding. But these rascals says that apartment has become bus. The monkey has become man. Devotee (2): Like people sometimes go into a theater and they identify themselves with a motion picture. The movie that's on a screen, they become so emotionally involved, they cry and they laugh and they become completely involved with the picture. Prabhupāda: That is feeling. That is not identity. Devotee (2): (to another devotee) Want me to pull it while you hold it up? Prabhupāda: There are many buses standing? Devotee (2): This is a parking area for trucks. It's a rest area. We're just shifting some cooking equipment so they can prepare something. Hari-śauri: We're going now. They just fixed that window. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A wonderful philosophy. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is a wonderful philosophy. It never becomes boring. Never. Prabhupāda: So this wonderful philosophy you have to present. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's going to be nice and much quieter now, Prabhupāda, with this window closed. Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . without this way of life that you've given us, life would be intolerable in the material world for one who is thoughtful. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is discussed (indistinct Bengali) Unless one understands this philosophy, he simply suffers. And because they are suffering, their only solace is this wine. They cannot find out any other. The more dull*-headed, this liquor is solace for the śūdra class. In India, the liquor is taken by the lowest class, not intelligent class—the washerman, the cobbler, the butcher, like that. Most less, degraded. (bus restarts) Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra-duḥkha . You continue to suffer. They are missing the point, struggling for existence. They have created this civilization, material civilization, full of factories. It is simply suffering, nothing but suffering. Maybe the factory proprietor may get some profit, but actually it is a place of suffering. Those who are working in the factory, they are simply suffering. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is mentioned here. Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra*-duḥkha. *Prabhupāda: Saṁsāra*-duḥkha . Create suffering, one after another. Suffering. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "When the living entity forgets his constitutional position as an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, he is immediately entrapped by the illusory external energy." Prabhupāda: Become a servant of . . . (indistinct) . . . we are servant of Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) We are not going to be servant of . . . (indistinct) . . . unless I give up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no scope for being . . . to become servant. Just like this Subala, he is now washing dishes in a hotel. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And I heard that Madhudviṣa is now sweeping a floor in a restaurant. Prabhupāda: What do you think? (laughs) And what you were doing? Devotee: Me, I was selling jewelry. Prabhupāda: I heard that you are driving car, you are a taxi driver. Devotee: I tried it for a few weeks. For a couple of weeks. Prabhupāda: We have to do this. As soon as we give up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, these things are ready, "Come on." Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare. "Yes, please come." There is no other alternative. Either serve Kṛṣṇa or serve māyā , that's all. So unless one is rascal, how he will accept māyā's service? Māyā's service is not very palatable. But māyā is ready. As soon as you give up Kṛṣṇa's service . . . (break) (end) *(Radha*-Damodara bus to Gita-nagari farm) Prabhupāda: You can keep in that room? Hari-śauri: Yes, if there are any visitors that come, we'll play them. The small ones? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: So tomorrow we'll be traveling to the farm and then coming . . . returning Friday morning. And then I think in the afternoon, Friday afternoon, there's the Associated Press are coming, and also this lady from the magazine wanted to come. Prabhupāda: Which lady? Hari-śauri: From this India magazine? This one I just showed. The thing is, Rāmeśvara was thinking it might be too much if you did two interviews straight after each other. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Yes. So we should arrange for her to come another day. Prabhupāda: Where is that magazine? Hari-śauri: Well, they took it out. Prabhupāda: India ? Hari-śauri: You would like to . . .? I'll bring one so you can read. (break) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There is no other seat? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we have another seat for you. Prabhupāda: Only one bus is going? (break) (on bus) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . going about 55 miles an hour. Hari-śauri: (to devotee) If you hold this microphone next to your mouth—don't press that trigger, though—and then I'll put it onto the speaker . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I don't think so. He's just going to read. Devotee: I don't have the . . . (break) Devotee: (testing microphone) Jaya , all glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! All glories to Śrī Guru, Śrī Gaurāṅga! (break) Prabhupāda: . . . what is sun. Sun is situated in one place, everyone can see. But the heat and light, it expands. The heat and light is impersonal, but the sun is personal. Now one can imagine which is important—the heat and light or the sun? Which is important? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The sun is the most important. *Prabhupāda: So why do people give importance to imperson, less important? What is the meaning? The meaning is the fiery place is situated in one place, everyone can see. But the heat, ninety*-three million miles from earth, expands. Because the sunshine is so widely expanded, it does not mean that it is more important than the sun. Go on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (reading) "Lord Kṛṣṇa naturally has three energetic transformations, and these are known as the spiritual potency, the living entity potency and the illusory potency." Viṣṇu-śaktiḥ . . . (break) *"Originally Kṛṣṇa's energy is spiritual and the energy known as the living entity is also spiritual. However, there is another energy called illusion, which consists of fruitive activity. That is the Lord's third potency. For further explanation of this verse, refer to the Ādi*-līlā, Chapter 7, verse 119." "All the creative energies, which are inconceivable to a common man, exists in the Supreme Absolute Truth. These inconceivable energies act in the process of creation, maintenance and annihilation. O chief of the ascetics, just as there are two energies possessed by fire, namely heat and light, these inconceivable creative energies are the natural characteristics of the Absolute Truth." "This is a quotation from the *Viṣṇu Purāṇa*. " "O King, the kṣetrajña-śakti is the living entity. Although he has the facility to live in either the material or spiritual world, he suffers the threefold miseries of material existence because he is influenced by the avidya (nescience) potency, which covers his constitutional position." "This and the following verse are also quoted from the *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* ." Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . tāratamyena vartate . "This living entity covered by the influence of nescience exists in different forms in the material condition. O King, he is thus proportionately freed from the influence of material energy to greater or lesser degrees." Prabhupāda: Inconceivable. That portion reads, what is that written? You read from "inconceivable"? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "All the creative energies which are inconceivable to a common man exist in the Supreme Absolute Truth. These inconceivable energies act in the process of creation, maintenance and annihilation. O chief of the ascetics, just as there are two energies possessed by fire, namely heat and light, these inconceivable creative energies are the natural characteristics of the Absolute Truth." Prabhupāda: That inconceivable energy, the scientists they are trying to conceive. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they can't. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Everyone knows that due to sunshine there are leaves in the trees, green and different colors. Everyone knows, due to the sunshine. But how this sunshine, this heat and light, these things are coming into existence? They are studying, what is called, molecules? Molecules. Hari-śauri: Yes, molecular structure. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Polygons. Prabhupāda: So many things. But they cannot make it. Although they are seeing due to the sunshine these colors are there . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot explain. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (bus now stationary) This electrical system, this one works when you plug the bus in. Like if you are at a campground, then these go on, and these are very bright, fluorescent. And then when traveling, this system works. Therefore we have two separate light switch panels. One is for when we plug into the regular current, and the other one is on the road. The kitchen is very nice. I wanted to show you the kitchen, Prabhupāda. It's a very different kitchen than the one that you saw originally. This is a very big kitchen. Five men can stand there. Very big. Cooking, very convenient. We've improved the buses since the last time you were here. Prabhupāda: Hmm. These scientists, they will not admit that Kṛṣṇa is the original cause . . . (indistinct) . . . they are trying to invent so many things and pacifying their followers, "Wait for millions of years. We will give you all solution." That millions of years will never be fulfilled, and their suffering will never go. That they do not know. Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra (CC Madhya 20.117). This life they make researches, and when they are failure they give bluff, "Wait millions of years." In the meantime he becomes a grub. He has to wait millions and trillions of . . . that's all. Again begin transmigration from grub to plant, plant to this, that, this, that. Stand up for thousands of years as a tree. Then another tree, another thousand, millions. You wanted to wait for millions, then you wait for millions. How long can you wait for . . . in this way, by transmigration. This is their destiny. And in this very life that I am prepared to go back to home, back to Godhead, that path they will not. They will wait millions of years to see their success. This is rascaldom. Wait millions of years. They do not know how they will wait. They will wait this way, again become grub. Then gradual evolution. It will take millions and trillions of years. Then again he will come to human form of life, and again he will say: "Millions of years." This is their intelligence. Hmm? What do you say? Hari-śauri: Why wait? *Bali*-mardana: Kṛṣṇa fulfills everyone's desires. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not wait. Prabhupāda: This is their intelligence, these rascal scientists. Their intelligence is they admit they will wait. But he is eternal, so eternally he must get some body to wait. And if he says that after this life everything finished, then what is the meaning of wait millions of years? If I am going to be finished, you are going to be finished after this life, then there is no question of waiting for millions of years. Who will wait? You are finished, I am finished, then who will wait? Devotee (2): They say they're working for the children in the future, make a better future. Prabhupāda: But you are not going to wait. You are finished. And I am here, I am finished. And the children who will come, they will be finished. Who will wait? Who will wait? Devotee (2): No one. (break) Prabhupāda: Rascals wait for millions of years. So who will wait? Devotee (2): They think in terms of past generations. They see the progress of society from two thousand years or four thousand years, and they think of themselves as a part of that generation, that in the future, "Just see how far we have come from a hundred years." *Prabhupāda: Part of a generation, that's all right. But a generation, so*-called generation, you and me, everything will be finished. So who will wait? That is my point. Devotee (3): What are they waiting for? Prabhupāda: Hmm? You wait or not, you will be finished. Devotee (4): They are thinking that this is pursuit of the truth, that they are trying to theorize. Prabhupāda: Fools will follow you. And wherefrom he is coming with so much intelligence that the truth which you have discovered, somebody will come and catch up. His life, there is no continuation. Then there is no question of accepting your truth. We may not accept your truth. So many questions are there, but they are bluffing. Mūḍha nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). What is going on there? Devotee: We're trying to fix this . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is the science, they will have to wait millions of . . . that is a fact. But how they will have to wait, that these rascals they do not know. They will have to wait in this lower grade of life. Devotee (2): Can a living entity have realization of transmigration without being Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: Hmm? It is very easy, but you are so fool, you cannot understand it. Kṛṣṇa is giving immediately. The child is transmigrating to the boy's body. The soul is from boy's body is going to youthful body. Very plain explanation. But because the brain is so dull, they cannot understand. Under their scientific brain, they have become so rascal that the simple truth they cannot understand. This is their scientific advancement. Hmm? (pause) Prabhupāda: Why we are checked? Stopped? Devotee (2): They are shifting some equipment for cooking. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They consider, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this is the same . . . they have a sense of not changing. That's there because the soul is not changing. Everyone has a sense that they are not changing because the soul is always there. But because they have no information of the soul, sometimes they think that because I have this body as a youth, I have this body as an old man or youthful person, the point is that they consider that it's the same person, the body, it hasn't changed. They stay the same person, simply it has grown, because they have the sense of the same identity. But can it be said . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Grown means the original form is changed. You can call it in a different name, but grown means the original form has changed. We are also changed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So can it be said that one has the same body, or is it a different body? Prabhupāda: Hmm? It is different body. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is different. Prabhupāda: Otherwise why more species coming? It is a different body. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the energy by which one conceives that it's the same body? Is that the false ego, by which he thinks that this is . . . Prabhupāda: No, dull brain. That Darwin's theory is that. Just like we are coming from apartment to this bus. This rascal says that apartment has become bus. That is his foolishness. I am the person from that apartment, I have come to this bus, it is a fact. But he is such a rascal, he says that apartment has become bus. That is the foolishness. How the apartment can become bus? You can say the person who was in the apartment, he has come into this bus. That is a reasonable understanding. But these rascals says that apartment has become bus. The monkey has become man. Devotee (2): Like people sometimes go into a theater and they identify themselves with a motion picture. The movie that's on a screen, they become so emotionally involved, they cry and they laugh and they become completely involved with the picture. Prabhupāda: That is feeling. That is not identity. Devotee (2): (to another devotee) Want me to pull it while you hold it up? Prabhupāda: There are many buses standing? Devotee (2): This is a parking area for trucks. It's a rest area. We're just shifting some cooking equipment so they can prepare something. Hari-śauri: We're going now. They just fixed that window. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A wonderful philosophy. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is a wonderful philosophy. It never becomes boring. Never. Prabhupāda: So this wonderful philosophy you have to present. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's going to be nice and much quieter now, Prabhupāda, with this window closed. Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . without this way of life that you've given us, life would be intolerable in the material world for one who is thoughtful. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is discussed (indistinct Bengali) Unless one understands this philosophy, he simply suffers. And because they are suffering, their only solace is this wine. They cannot find out any other. The more dull*-headed, this liquor is solace for the śūdra class. In India, the liquor is taken by the lowest class, not intelligent class—the washerman, the cobbler, the butcher, like that. Most less, degraded. (bus restarts) Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra-duḥkha . You continue to suffer. They are missing the point, struggling for existence. They have created this civilization, material civilization, full of factories. It is simply suffering, nothing but suffering. Maybe the factory proprietor may get some profit, but actually it is a place of suffering. Those who are working in the factory, they are simply suffering. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is mentioned here. Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra*-duḥkha. *Prabhupāda: Saṁsāra*-duḥkha . Create suffering, one after another. Suffering. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "When the living entity forgets his constitutional position as an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, he is immediately entrapped by the illusory external energy." Prabhupāda: Become a servant of . . . (indistinct) . . . we are servant of Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) We are not going to be servant of . . . (indistinct) . . . unless I give up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no scope for being . . . to become servant. Just like this Subala, he is now washing dishes in a hotel. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And I heard that Madhudviṣa is now sweeping a floor in a restaurant. Prabhupāda: What do you think? (laughs) And what you were doing? Devotee: Me, I was selling jewelry. Prabhupāda: I heard that you are driving car, you are a taxi driver. Devotee: I tried it for a few weeks. For a couple of weeks. Prabhupāda: We have to do this. As soon as we give up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, these things are ready, "Come on." Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare. "Yes, please come." There is no other alternative. Either serve Kṛṣṇa or serve māyā , that's all. So unless one is rascal, how he will accept māyā's service? Māyā's service is not very palatable. But māyā is ready. As soon as you give up Kṛṣṇa's service . . . (break) (end) (Conversation After Interview with Religious Editor, Associated Press) Prabhupāda: Because they are accustomed to the business of hammering the bricks from time immemorial, they think, "This is the business. How is that this man is not engaged in this business?" Hari-śauri: Even after he'd understood the analogy that the man was in the prison and hammering bricks, he was still thinking that, "Well, shouldn't he still be hammering bricks?" He was asking that. He was still thinking like that. It's amazing. *Rādhā*-vallabha: He couldn't understand any of the analogies. Prabhupāda: That is the karmīs . Even the Orissa politicians, they accused Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Because the Orissa politician . . . it is a fact the Mahārāja Pratāparudra, the King of Orissa during the time of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he was politically very strong. At that time the Muhammadans were conquering different parts of India, but they could not enter Orissa or the southern India. They were very strong. So this Mahārāja Pratāparudra politically was very strong. So the modern politicians of Orissa, they accuse Caitanya Mahāprabhu that, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to Orissa and Mahārāja Pratāparudra became influenced by Him, Orissa fell down. They accuse sometimes that Orissa's political position became weakened on account of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's influence on Mahārāja Pratāparudra. They say. The modern politicians of Orissa, they also do not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. *Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? There's this editor from that Trans*-India magazine downstairs, but also that . . . the doctor is there as well. So would you like to see the doctor, or would you like to do another interview, or . . .? They tried to . . . they were trying to contact the Trans-India to have him come another day, but apparently it doesn't seem as though they did it. So they've come hoping to get an interview. Prabhupāda: So that you decide, which is important. Hari-śauri: No, I . . . we'll see if we can arrange it. Would you like to see the doctor? *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, the Trans*-India if he wants. Hari-śauri: I'll see. Whatever I can . . . Prabhupāda: They can wait, or one of them may come. (aside) So what is the news? Ātreya Ṛṣi: The karmīs decided they want to have a meeting. Prabhupāda: Oh, that GBC meeting. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, no. My karmī friends, on the 19th in New York. Prabhupāda: Oh, your business. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They always decide on perfect timing. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: That's nice. I shall prefer to see the Trans*-India first, because they will give some publicity to our movement. *Rādhā*-vallabha: So we'll tell the doctor to please wait? Prabhupāda: Yes. All right, he has gone to where? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He may bring the doctor up first. Prabhupāda: All right, let him come. So who is the chief man dealing with this? Who is the chief secretary, all these visitors? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Bali-mardana has been greeting them, because Rāmeśvara is involved in the GBC meeting. Prabhupāda: So you have been in the GBC meeting? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, I was earlier. Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter? Ātreya Ṛṣi: We discussed Jagadīśa Prabhu's request to primarily attend his engagement with gurukula , and we also discussed Satsvarūpa Gosvāmī's desire to attend primarily Library Party. Prabhupāda: It is good proposal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We discussed various difficulties that have been happening in Australia, and that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa should go there and help for . . . just for a visit, just to help. And then they will report to you. Prabhupāda: What is Iran's business? Going on? I got some good report from Nandarāṇī that she is in contact with the Shah's daughter, princess. Is that a fact? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, Nandarāṇī Prabhu is doing very well. She's got a gurukula , a school for the Indian children—they are being well attended. Also Mahārāja, Parivrājakācārya Swāmī, he has been in touch with the Shah's daughter, and he's been preaching to them. *Prabhupāda: Shah's son*-in-law is interested, I have heard. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, he is interested. *Prabhupāda: That's good. They are enlightened, the daughter and the son*-in-law both? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, they are both interested, but they are also very much . . . Prabhupāda: Biased. They are also biased. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is natural. *Hari-śauri: The Trans*-India people, they'll come tomorrow at four-thirty, if that's all right. Prabhupāda: Yeah. Hari-śauri: And the doctor's on his way up now. He'll be here in five minutes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Dayānanda Prabhu is doing very nicely. Prabhupāda: Very nicely. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very, very first class. Prabhupāda: What he's doing now? Ātreya Ṛṣi: First of all, he's helping in every program we have. He's very cooperative, very intelligent boy. Prabhupāda: Yes, he's very good boy. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And he's also working as a computer man, very good job. Prabhupāda: Oh, a good salary? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, very good salary. Prabhupāda: He knows computer? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Yes, he's good electrician. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So where he is employed? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He's employed with one of my clients. Prabhupāda: Oh. So what salary? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Sperry, Sperry Univac. Prabhupāda: What salary he is getting? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Ah, he's getting about twelve, thirteen hundred dollars now. Prabhupāda: Salary? Yes. He was getting in America six hundred. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Getting double. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And he will get a lot more and more. He will get a lot more. And he is . . . we have our regular programs, he brings people from business, we all bring people, and the prasādam and chanting and lecture. It's very nice. Prabhupāda: And so Nandarāṇī is also working? Ātreya Ṛṣi: She is happy. She, for a while she taught at a karmī school. From that school . . . Prabhupāda: She has got experience. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, she's very good. Very first class. Prabhupāda: Both of them are very intelligent. And Nandarāṇī is more intelligent than her husband. (laughs) I know that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I find that he is very intelligent, Śrīla Prabhupāda, really. Prabhupāda: Ah, Dayānanda. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: He is intelligent, but Nandarāṇī is still more intelligent. (laughs) I know that. Both of them are intelligent, but this girl appears to be more intelligent. That's all right. What about their daughters? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They are there. They're very happy. Prabhupāda: Where? Ātreya Ṛṣi: In Tehran. Prabhupāda: They have gone there? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They have come. Prabhupāda: Oh, when? Ātreya Ṛṣi: About two months ago, a month. Prabhupāda: I saw them in Los Angeles. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, they left. Hari-śauri: Must have been just after we left there. Ātreya Ṛṣi: A month ago, five, six weeks ago. Prabhupāda: They have got two daughters. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. They are there. They also attend gurukula . They have it regularly now. (indistinct background comments among devotees) *Bali*-mardana: So that reporter was very impressed. He's a very big reporter. He works for the API, the Associated Press. They give their news to papers all over the world, the news. Prabhupāda: So let him represent properly. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. You have given him a very unique interview, I think, with your analogies. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is there. Why they think Eastern, Western, Jewish and . . .? We are talking of the human being. That is the misunderstanding going on, that this is Hindu religion, Eastern religion. Kṛṣṇa begins from the word dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). Find out this. The rascals are taking Hindu, Muslim, Christian. Dehe , the body, and the inner force of the body, He's beginning His teaching. Where is the question of Hindu, Muslim, Christian and Jewish? Still they are misunderstanding, "This is Hindu." *Bali*-mardana: It is very hard for them to understand. Prabhupāda: This is science. Read that. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Now, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā , boyhood, childhood, youthhood, old age, is it for the Hindus? The Christian do not become child, do not become youth? (guests enter) Aiye. Aiye baithiye. (Come, come sit.) Hari-śauri: This is Dr. Bhagat. Prabhupāda: Bhagat. You are from Gujarat? Dr. Bhagat: Gujarat, yes. Hari-śauri: He's one of our Life Members also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: She's your wife? Child? How many children you have got? How many children you have got? Dr. Bhagat: One. Prabhupāda: Only one? *There is no need of hundreds of rascal child, children. One is sufficient. Varam eka. Varaṁ guṇī*-putra , he must be qualified. And who is guṇī ? Who is a devotee and learned scholar. Ko'ta putreṇa jātena, yo na vidyā na bhaktimān . What is the use of such rascal child if he's not a devotee, neither learned? Khanena cakṣuṣā kiṁ cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam . What is the use of blind eyes? It is simply troublesome. So let there be one child, but he must be like Prahlāda, like Dhruva Mahārāja, and then child production is beneficial. Otherwise, if we beget children like cats and dogs, what is the use? That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. Another example is given: ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā-sahasrasaḥ . If there is one moon in the sky, it is sufficient to give light to the whole sky. What is the use of millions of stars? So, it is very good that you can take care of one child and make him a great devotee and learned scholar. Then it is successful. So Dr. Bhagat, I get some pain. It is . . . (break) (end) (Conversation After Interview with Religious Editor, Associated Press) Prabhupāda: Because they are accustomed to the business of hammering the bricks from time immemorial, they think, "This is the business. How is that this man is not engaged in this business?" Hari-śauri: Even after he'd understood the analogy that the man was in the prison and hammering bricks, he was still thinking that, "Well, shouldn't he still be hammering bricks?" He was asking that. He was still thinking like that. It's amazing. *Rādhā*-vallabha: He couldn't understand any of the analogies. Prabhupāda: That is the karmīs . Even the Orissa politicians, they accused Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Because the Orissa politician . . . it is a fact the Mahārāja Pratāparudra, the King of Orissa during the time of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he was politically very strong. At that time the Muhammadans were conquering different parts of India, but they could not enter Orissa or the southern India. They were very strong. So this Mahārāja Pratāparudra politically was very strong. So the modern politicians of Orissa, they accuse Caitanya Mahāprabhu that, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to Orissa and Mahārāja Pratāparudra became influenced by Him, Orissa fell down. They accuse sometimes that Orissa's political position became weakened on account of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's influence on Mahārāja Pratāparudra. They say. The modern politicians of Orissa, they also do not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. *Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? There's this editor from that Trans*-India magazine downstairs, but also that . . . the doctor is there as well. So would you like to see the doctor, or would you like to do another interview, or . . .? They tried to . . . they were trying to contact the Trans-India to have him come another day, but apparently it doesn't seem as though they did it. So they've come hoping to get an interview. Prabhupāda: So that you decide, which is important. Hari-śauri: No, I . . . we'll see if we can arrange it. Would you like to see the doctor? *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, the Trans*-India if he wants. Hari-śauri: I'll see. Whatever I can . . . Prabhupāda: They can wait, or one of them may come. (aside) So what is the news? Ātreya Ṛṣi: The karmīs decided they want to have a meeting. Prabhupāda: Oh, that GBC meeting. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, no. My karmī friends, on the 19th in New York. Prabhupāda: Oh, your business. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They always decide on perfect timing. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: That's nice. I shall prefer to see the Trans*-India first, because they will give some publicity to our movement. *Rādhā*-vallabha: So we'll tell the doctor to please wait? Prabhupāda: Yes. All right, he has gone to where? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He may bring the doctor up first. Prabhupāda: All right, let him come. So who is the chief man dealing with this? Who is the chief secretary, all these visitors? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Bali-mardana has been greeting them, because Rāmeśvara is involved in the GBC meeting. Prabhupāda: So you have been in the GBC meeting? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, I was earlier. Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter? Ātreya Ṛṣi: We discussed Jagadīśa Prabhu's request to primarily attend his engagement with gurukula , and we also discussed Satsvarūpa Gosvāmī's desire to attend primarily Library Party. Prabhupāda: It is good proposal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We discussed various difficulties that have been happening in Australia, and that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa should go there and help for . . . just for a visit, just to help. And then they will report to you. Prabhupāda: What is Iran's business? Going on? I got some good report from Nandarāṇī that she is in contact with the Shah's daughter, princess. Is that a fact? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, Nandarāṇī Prabhu is doing very well. She's got a gurukula , a school for the Indian children—they are being well attended. Also Mahārāja, Parivrājakācārya Swāmī, he has been in touch with the Shah's daughter, and he's been preaching to them. *Prabhupāda: Shah's son*-in-law is interested, I have heard. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, he is interested. *Prabhupāda: That's good. They are enlightened, the daughter and the son*-in-law both? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, they are both interested, but they are also very much . . . Prabhupāda: Biased. They are also biased. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is natural. *Hari-śauri: The Trans*-India people, they'll come tomorrow at four-thirty, if that's all right. Prabhupāda: Yeah. Hari-śauri: And the doctor's on his way up now. He'll be here in five minutes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Dayānanda Prabhu is doing very nicely. Prabhupāda: Very nicely. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very, very first class. Prabhupāda: What he's doing now? Ātreya Ṛṣi: First of all, he's helping in every program we have. He's very cooperative, very intelligent boy. Prabhupāda: Yes, he's very good boy. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And he's also working as a computer man, very good job. Prabhupāda: Oh, a good salary? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, very good salary. Prabhupāda: He knows computer? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Yes, he's good electrician. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So where he is employed? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He's employed with one of my clients. Prabhupāda: Oh. So what salary? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Sperry, Sperry Univac. Prabhupāda: What salary he is getting? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Ah, he's getting about twelve, thirteen hundred dollars now. Prabhupāda: Salary? Yes. He was getting in America six hundred. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Getting double. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And he will get a lot more and more. He will get a lot more. And he is . . . we have our regular programs, he brings people from business, we all bring people, and the prasādam and chanting and lecture. It's very nice. Prabhupāda: And so Nandarāṇī is also working? Ātreya Ṛṣi: She is happy. She, for a while she taught at a karmī school. From that school . . . Prabhupāda: She has got experience. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, she's very good. Very first class. Prabhupāda: Both of them are very intelligent. And Nandarāṇī is more intelligent than her husband. (laughs) I know that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I find that he is very intelligent, Śrīla Prabhupāda, really. Prabhupāda: Ah, Dayānanda. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: He is intelligent, but Nandarāṇī is still more intelligent. (laughs) I know that. Both of them are intelligent, but this girl appears to be more intelligent. That's all right. What about their daughters? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They are there. They're very happy. Prabhupāda: Where? Ātreya Ṛṣi: In Tehran. Prabhupāda: They have gone there? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They have come. Prabhupāda: Oh, when? Ātreya Ṛṣi: About two months ago, a month. Prabhupāda: I saw them in Los Angeles. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, they left. Hari-śauri: Must have been just after we left there. Ātreya Ṛṣi: A month ago, five, six weeks ago. Prabhupāda: They have got two daughters. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. They are there. They also attend gurukula . They have it regularly now. (indistinct background comments among devotees) *Bali*-mardana: So that reporter was very impressed. He's a very big reporter. He works for the API, the Associated Press. They give their news to papers all over the world, the news. Prabhupāda: So let him represent properly. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. You have given him a very unique interview, I think, with your analogies. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is there. Why they think Eastern, Western, Jewish and . . .? We are talking of the human being. That is the misunderstanding going on, that this is Hindu religion, Eastern religion. Kṛṣṇa begins from the word dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). Find out this. The rascals are taking Hindu, Muslim, Christian. Dehe , the body, and the inner force of the body, He's beginning His teaching. Where is the question of Hindu, Muslim, Christian and Jewish? Still they are misunderstanding, "This is Hindu." *Bali*-mardana: It is very hard for them to understand. Prabhupāda: This is science. Read that. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Now, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā , boyhood, childhood, youthhood, old age, is it for the Hindus? The Christian do not become child, do not become youth? (guests enter) Aiye. Aiye baithiye. (Come, come sit.) Hari-śauri: This is Dr. Bhagat. Prabhupāda: Bhagat. You are from Gujarat? Dr. Bhagat: Gujarat, yes. Hari-śauri: He's one of our Life Members also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: She's your wife? Child? How many children you have got? How many children you have got? Dr. Bhagat: One. Prabhupāda: Only one? *There is no need of hundreds of rascal child, children. One is sufficient. Varam eka. Varaṁ guṇī*-putra , he must be qualified. And who is guṇī ? Who is a devotee and learned scholar. Ko'ta putreṇa jātena, yo na vidyā na bhaktimān . What is the use of such rascal child if he's not a devotee, neither learned? Khanena cakṣuṣā kiṁ cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam . What is the use of blind eyes? It is simply troublesome. So let there be one child, but he must be like Prahlāda, like Dhruva Mahārāja, and then child production is beneficial. Otherwise, if we beget children like cats and dogs, what is the use? That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. Another example is given: ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā-sahasrasaḥ . If there is one moon in the sky, it is sufficient to give light to the whole sky. What is the use of millions of stars? So, it is very good that you can take care of one child and make him a great devotee and learned scholar. Then it is successful. So Dr. Bhagat, I get some pain. It is . . . (break) (end) Indian man: I came to offer my obeisances to you. I became a Life Member as a result of Gopāla Kṛṣṇa's talking to me. Prabhupāda: In Bombay? Indian man: No, sir, here. I came to offer you obeisances in Brooklyn temple, and I asked you a special permission as my Gurudeva, which you gladly gave me, to teach *Gītā* in Poughkeepsie, where I am. And since then I have been trying to do your work sincerely in Poughkeepsie. Prabhupāda: Poughkeepsie. Indian man: Yes, sir. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Indian man: It is hundred miles north of New York. I work there. I am an engineer, and I have been trying to spread Kṛṣṇa conscious movement of yours, trying to teach from your *Gītā* to the Indian community, and I have been slowly trying to get American people also involved. And, as I see, more and more American people are now coming in. And in fact, those people who are very steadfast, who come to attend my class, are the American people. I am very glad to see that they are taking very great interest. And . . . Prabhupāda: Indians are not taking so much. Indian man: No, sir, I'm . . . Prabhupāda: Indians are bara sāhīb . (laughs) Indian man: Ah. You see they have been going to . . . Prabhupāda: Ready? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I wanted to just finalize when you would join the festival tomorrow. I wanted to fix that up, so I could, you know, just do that. We're leaving Fifty*-ninth Street at two o'clock, and we're reaching downtown, the park, at four o'clock. In other words, it takes two hours, the route. At four o'clock we're going to have a Winnebago. Winnebago is like a small bus which has a . . . it has a lavatory in it. Hari-śauri: Like Satsvarūpa Mahārāja's traveling bus. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. It has a bathroom in it. That's going to accompany the parade in case at any time you require it, that will be right there. So it can pull alongside the cart. At four o'clock we'll arrive, and at about four*-thirty Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja will give a short introduction for you, and at four forty-five you'll speak. So at four forty-five you're expected to give the lecture. It begins at two o'clock at Fifty-ninth Street for two hours. Then by five, five-fifteen, the whole thing will be over. So I wanted to know what time you would like to join the parade. Prabhupāda: So you suggest. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it depends on a number of things. One thing is that your rest. After taking massage you take prasādam , and then your resting period. Another thing is how long you want to ride along on the cart. It depends on . . . I think it should depend on . . . I can't . . . no*-one can make that decision. We're agreeable to anything that you suggest. Devotees are enlivened simply that you're here in New York with us. Prabhupāda: So at two o'clock you start? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Prabhupāda: You want me at the starting point? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We want you to do simply what you feel would be best. Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the best? Starting point, my presence required? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it's not a question of required. I mean that's a very exciting time, you know, but I don't know if it's . . . I wouldn't say it's required. We're going to start. One way or the other, we have to start the parade. It's exciting at that time, probably, but you could also join midway. Suppose you could also join at Thirty*-fourth Street instead of Fifty-ninth Street. Halfway is about Thirty-fourth Street. So you could join there. Prabhupāda: That will be better. Hari-śauri: That would be about three o'clock. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That would be at about three o'clock. It depends upon your resting period also. Prabhupāda: No, that I will adjust. That is not the thing. I want to know when my joining will be very good. That I want to know. In the beginning or the middle, in the last, that you have to decide. Then I shall adjust. In London, I think . . . of course, the whole route I was present, but that was little troublesome because sometimes I am called by nature. But you say there will be a car. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, which is equipped . . . Prabhupāda: So under the circumstances, which time will be good? That you say. Then I shall adjust. That you consult, which time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, if I can have about five minutes, I'll ask a few people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then I'll adjust. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you're agreeable at any time as long as that convenience . . . that's a good convenience, I think, that we'll have that vehicle. Prabhupāda: That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I'll just inquire. This is a general idea of what's going on the whole day tomorrow. I'll leave it with Hari-śauri. Prabhupāda: The preaching is going on. Nobody has become our student? Indian man: Among the Indian people . . . Prabhupāda: Indian or European or American, it doesn't matter. Since you are preaching there, has anybody joined this movement? Indian man: No, sir. I have been begging. I've been begging people. Now I know that two American people will become steadfast, and I will make them . . . sure that they join the movement, but among the Indian people, this is the problem. Prabhupāda: Whether you have joined? *Indian man: I have joined. I'm a Life Member. I come to the temple. I study your books all the time. I have your photo. I do your ārati every day without fail. Without fail. Nayanābhirāma came to my house two weeks ago, and I showed him everything, Kṛṣṇa and your photo next to it, and I every day do pūjā . Complete vegetarian, and we are doing ārati every day, first obeisances to you, my father*-mother, and Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Your father*-mother here? *Indian man: No, sir. They are dead now. They have expired. But I still offer my obeisances to them. First obeisances to you, then to Kṛṣṇa, then to my father*-mother, and then I start my pūjā . Prabhupāda: That's . . . Indian man: And I do complete ārati and everything, because I want your blessings. I wish that I have a guru like you every birth after birth. But one of the problem, Prabhupāda, personally, I have found among the Indian people is that because we are used to so many demigods, they still don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are so many arguments I get that like . . . Prabhupāda: There is no question of argument. Indian man: No no. *Prabhupāda: It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Indian man: Yes sir. *Prabhupāda: But if they do not accept Bhagavad*-gītā as the authority, then they are fools. Indian man: Yes, they are. Prabhupāda: So fools cannot be enlightened. That is the difficulty. Indian man: And this is one of the biggest problems. Prabhupāda: If they do not accept the authority, then they are fools. Indian man: Yes. After I teach *Gītā* and I try to tell them to please sing bhajan . . . *Prabhupāda: That is not their fault. Even the big, big leaders of India, even Gandhi, they do not know actually. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. The Bhagavad-gītā has been misinterpreted, misused by the leaders, by the politicians, by the so-called philosophers. Everyone has misused Bhagavad-gītā . Indian man: I'll tell you one thing, that Swami Chinmayananda . . . Prabhupāda: He's a great . . . Indian man: He's great, but I'll tell you what happened. Prabhupāda: "Great" means great fool. Indian man: Yes. In Third Chapter where Kṛṣṇa is saying: "Renounce your everything to Me." Okay? And the word matam is used, matam . Now Swami Chinmayananda is saying: "That's My opinion," that's what Kṛṣṇa is telling, and they will be freed of all the work. And you have written matam means scriptural injunctions. And I tried to show the students who come to the class that "This is the difference. Look at this, very big difference," because if Kṛṣṇa is only giving His opinion, then He's talking like a diplomat, not talking like God. But if He says: "This is the law . . ." And I explained to them that like Bible has got ten commandments . . . *Prabhupāda: And another thing, even Kṛṣṇa says, giving His opinion—that's taking it as it is—Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat ( BG 7.7). So He's the supreme authority. So supreme authority's matam is a high court judgment. There is no argument anyone. The judgment is given by the high court. Final decision. So if Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, then who can give him better opinion than Him? For argument's sake, even if He says . . . any gentleman will say like that, that . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "You do it." He is Supreme Lord, He can force you, but He does not do that. So although His matam is the Supreme, but as a gentle preacher, He says: "That is My matam ." But if you are sane, if you know that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority, then His matam is final. *Indian man: Right. And that's why I try to show the difference to people, that "Please follow Prabhupāda's Gītā . And please make sure that when you read, you read Gītā As It Is." This is why I'm trying to show the differences to people. Personally there is only one question I have, and that is, throughout all the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatams that you have translated so far, I see all the time any, like Kardama Muni or other, all other great sages, whenever they do tapasya , every time Mahā-Viṣṇu comes down. Now I know that throughout other . . . even Back to Godhead , you have considered Mahā-Viṣṇu as an expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yet Mahā-Viṣṇu is coming every time as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So what is the subtle position here? *Prabhupāda: There is no difference between . . . just like . . . it has been explained in the Brahma*-saṁhitā . Just like one candle, then you kindle another candle, then you kindle another, another, another, another. So you say: "This is first, this is second, this is third, this is fourth." But so far candlepower is concerned, they are all the same. Either you take first or the second or the third, so far the candlepower is concerned, that is all the same. Still, you have to say: "This is first, this is second, that is third, this is fourth, this is . . ." Indian man: I was trying to . . . I was trying . . . *Prabhupāda: So God and His different expansions, they are of same power. Rāmādi*-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu, kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo . . . *Indian man: . . . govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . *Prabhupāda: So He is existing with all the incarnations, rāmādi*-mūrtiṣu . Indian man: Yes, even Rāmacandra is . . . Prabhupāda: So Rāma is not less than Kṛṣṇa, but He is incarnation. This is the conclusion. *Indian man: Because I was trying to refer to Govindāṣṭakam , where it says (sings) śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā āra gokuleśa gopāla govardhana*-nātha viṣṇu, jīveti amṛtamedhadevo govindaṁ dāmodaram ada vetti . He's saying, śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā āra gokuleśa gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu . That is what I was trying to see that is really . . . I know that Kṛṣṇa's expansion is Mahā-Viṣṇu, but still, why do they say govardhana-nātha viṣṇu ? That's what I was trying to understand. Please don't misunderstand me. I am trying to understand from you. *Prabhupāda: No, no, Govardhana . . . everyone is viṣṇu*-tattva. Viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva , like that. So all of them on the Viṣṇu category. That's all. Viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti. Viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti (BS 5.46). These things are there. So Godhead is viṣṇu-tattva . So sometimes Viṣṇu, sometimes Nārāyaṇa, sometimes Govinda, sometimes Kṛṣṇa, like that. *Indian man: That's very nice, because one can understand very well. Because I always took Mahā*-Viṣṇu as the expansion of Kṛṣṇa, but still, when I went to Govindāṣṭakam and then also like Brahma-saṁhitā says, yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā . . . (BS 5.48). *Prabhupāda: . . . loma*-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ . *Indian man: . . . jagad*-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya (Prabhupāda quotes same verse simultaneously) kalā-viśeṣo govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . So he says Mahā-Viṣṇu is even one expansion of Kṛṣṇa, yet in Govindāṣṭakam they say, govardhana . . . gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu, śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā gokuleśa, gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu . *Prabhupāda: They're all viṣṇu*-tattva. Viṣṇu-sahasra-nāma-stotra . *Indian man: Because many people in . . . at least, among the Indians I get very big argument about it, that it is Mahā*-Viṣṇu who is Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Kṛṣṇa is only one avatāra of His. And I try to . . . *Prabhupāda: That argument is discussed in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Hari-śauri: First volume? Prabhupāda: Yes, first volume you see. See the contents. You can't find it? When he is discussing, somebody, says Viṣṇu is the origin? So children, how many? Indian man: No children. Prabhupāda: No children. Indian man: No children Prabhupāda: That is good than another. (laughs) No responsibility. Indian man: I have decided that in about five, ten years, I'll work that much only. Afterwards I'm going to go to work for you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Indian man: Because I don't find any more pleasures, you know, in anything. As I go on chanting and chanting and chanting, sometime, Prabhupāda . . . oh, my first dream that came when I joined your movement . . . first dream that I came . . . and I told my wife about it in the morning. I said, first I saw a moon, and then I saw another large planet coming up, and then on the top of it I saw the lotus feet of the Lord. And when I saw the lotus feet of the Lord, I saw you coming on a swan and doing His pūjā . And I kept on shouting to my wife that, "Please see, Prabhupāda is here. Please see. He is doing pūjā of lotus feet of the Lord." And that was my first dream that came. Sometimes after chanting all the time I feel as if He is walking next to me. I can feel as if His bluish body is right next to me, and all the time I have a feeling that somebody is next to me, you know. I don't know whether I'm going crazy or I'm . . . *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is already there. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). (Tamāla Kṛṣṇa enters) So? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I asked, I took a poll, census poll of about six or seven GBC men, including Kīrtanānanda, Rāmeśvara, Bali*-mardana, so many men who know New York, and they all thought that if you join the parade at Twenty-third Street . . . *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-third. At what time? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah, it'll be . . . it should be at about 3:15, like that. Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then it will be nice. Because the whole parade is about fifty*-four blocks, and you'll be riding for about nineteen blocks. It means your ride will take about forty-five minutes. Prabhupāda: So what time I'll have to start? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From here? Prabhupāda: Somebody will come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think I will probably come. Kīrtanānanda will also . . . Prabhupāda: At what time? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think, say, it's going to be either 2:45 or 3:00. Tomorrow morning I'll let you know. Prabhupāda: So at 3:00 I shall be ready. You can come and take me. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I think at 3:00 . . . but then by the time we get in the car . . . I think it will work, 3:00 o'clock. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Three o'clock, I'll be ready. You come and take. In the meantime, I shall finish my . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that will leave a little time for resting. The whole program should be over by about . . . Prabhupāda: So tomorrow I shall take lunch at 1:00. Hari-śauri: One o'clock. Prabhupāda: That's all. Then, by 3:00 o'clock, I shall be ready. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Thik hai. (Okay then.) Kṛṣṇa is preparing you to join this movement wholeheartedly. It is very nice. (to devotee) Now you have got it? *Jayādvaita: Yes. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja quotes, ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28): "All these incarnations of Godhead are either plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras , but Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself." Then he says: "The Bhāgavatam describes the symptoms and deeds of the incarnations in general and counts Śrī Kṛṣṇa among them. This made Sūta Gosvāmī greatly apprehensive. Therefore he distinguished each incarnation by its specific symptom. All the incarnations of Godhead are plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras , but the primeval Lord is Śrī Kṛṣṇa. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the fountainhead of all incarnations. An opponent may say: 'This is your interpretation, but actually the Supreme Lord is Nārāyaṇa, who is in the transcendental realm. He, Nārāyaṇa, incarnates as Lord Kṛṣṇa. This is the meaning of the verse as I see it. There is no need for further consideration.' To such a misguided interpreter we may reply, 'Why should you suggest such fallacious logic? An interpretation is never accepted as evidence if it opposes the principle of scripture. One should not state a predicate before its subject, for it cannot thus stand without proper support.' If I do not state a subject, I do not state a predicate. First I speak the former and then the latter. The predicate of a sentence is what is unknown to the reader, whereas the subject is what is known to him. For example, we may say: 'This vipra is a greatly learned man.' In this sentence, the vipra is the subject, and the predicate is his erudition. The man's being a vipra is known, but his erudition is unknown. Therefore the person is identified first and his erudition later. In the same way, all these incarnations were known, but whose incarnations they are was unknown. First the word ete , 'these,' establishes the subject, the incarnations. Then 'plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras' follows as the predicate. In the same way, when Kṛṣṇa was first counted among the incarnations, specific knowledge about Him was still unknown. Therefore the word Kṛṣṇa appears as the subject, followed by the predicate, describing Him as the original Personality of Godhead. This establishes that Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead. The original Personality of Godhead is therefore necessarily Kṛṣṇa. Had Kṛṣṇa been the plenary portion and Nārāyaṇa the primeval Lord, the statement of Sūta Gosvāmī would have been reversed. Thus he would have said: 'Nārāyaṇa, the source of all incarnations, is the original Personality of Godhead. He has appeared as Śrī Kṛṣṇa.' " *Prabhupāda: So everything is given with logic and argument. Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). First of all He's grouped among the incarnations, but Kṛṣṇa is not incarnation. He's bhagavān svayam . Indian man: He comes original. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you argue against the authority of *Bhāgavatam* , then that argument has no value. *Indian man: That's where the problem in India occuring. Everyone is saying God is Mahā*-Viṣṇu, and Kṛṣṇa and Rāma are only avatāras , and that's where the big argument came in. In fact, I talked to so many . . . *Prabhupāda: Otherwise why Sūta Gosvāmī, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28)? And Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). So how one can say like that? That means less intelligent. If Kṛṣṇa . . . if one accepts the authority of Bhagavad*-gītā , Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Then how they falsely say? Aham ādir hi devānām . Find out this verse. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Sarvaśaḥ . Kṛṣṇa jhoot bol rahe hain kya? (Is Kṛṣṇa telling lies?) Indian man: No. Never. He has no reason to cheat us. He has no reason to lie. Hari-śauri: Shall I read the . . .? Prabhupāda: Um hmm. Hari-śauri: "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for, in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." Purport? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: "As stated in Brahma*-saṁhitā , Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. No one is greater than Him; *He is the cause of all causes. Here it is also stated by the Lord personally that He is the cause of all the demigods and the sages. Even the demigods and great sages cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. They can neither understand His name nor His personality, so what is the position of the so*-called scholars of this tiny planet? No one can understand why the Supreme God comes to earth as an ordinary human being and executes such commonplace and yet wonderful activities. One should know, then, that scholarship is not the qualification necessary to understand Kṛṣṇa. Even the demigods and the great sages have tried to understand Kṛṣṇa by their mental speculation, and they have failed to do so. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is stated clearly that even the great demigods are not able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They can speculate to the limits of their imperfect senses and can reach the opposite conclusion of impersonalism, of something not manifested by the three qualities of material nature. Or they can imagine something by mental speculation. But it is not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa by such foolish speculation." *"Here the Lord indirectly says that if anyone wants to know the Absolute Truth, 'Here I am, present as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I am the Supreme.' One should know this. Although one cannot understand the inconceivable Lord who is personally present, He nonetheless exists. We can actually understand Kṛṣṇa, who is eternal, full of bliss and knowledge, simply by studying His words in Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . The impersonal Brahman can be conceived by persons who are already in the inferior energy of the Lord, but the Personality of Godhead cannot be conceived unless one is in the transcendental position. Because most men cannot understand Kṛṣṇa in His actual situation, out of His causeless mercy He descends to show favor to such speculators. Yet despite the Supreme Lord's uncommon activities, these speculators, due to contamination in the material energy, still think that the impersonal Brahman is the Supreme. Only the devotees, who are fully surrendered unto the Supreme Lord, can understand, by the grace of the Lord, that He is Kṛṣṇa. The devotees of the Lord do not bother about the impersonal Brahman conception of God. Their faith and devotion bring them to surrender immediately unto the Supreme Lord, and out of the causeless mercy of Kṛṣṇa, they can understand Kṛṣṇa. No one else can understand Him. So even great sages agree, 'What is ātmā ? What is the Supreme? It is He whom we have to worship.' " Indian man: In my class I run into lot of arguments, especially from our Indian people, and this is one of the biggest arguments that people pose. They say: "Why are you calling yourselves Vaiṣṇavas and not Kṛṣṇayas?" Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: If I call Kṛṣṇa . . . I accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme Personality of Godhead, then the question comes to me, "Why are you calling yourself Vaiṣṇavas? Why not Kṛṣṇayas?" *Prabhupāda: That already is explained, that Kṛṣṇa or Rāma, Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa, They are all viṣṇu*-tattva . Therefore Viṣṇu is the common word for everyone. Just like candle. Everyone is candle, but still, this is first candle, this is second candle, this is third candle, like that. So Godhead means all viṣṇu-tattva . They are not jīva-tattva . So therefore those who are devotee of God, they are called Vaiṣṇava. Hari-śauri: This specific word Vaiṣṇava, that refers to Viṣṇu? Worshipers of Viṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇu asyra devataḥ iti vaiṣṇavaḥ . Indian man: Throughout *Vedas* also, Viṣṇu is the yajñeśvara . Prabhupāda: The supreme, yes. Indian man: Yajño vai viṣṇuḥ . *Prabhupāda: Viṣṇur ārādhyate. Viṣṇur ārādhyate, nānyat tat*-toṣa-kāraṇam. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). Viṣṇor ārādhanam. Ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param . These are the śāstric . . . that viṣṇor ārādhana . Kṛṣṇa-ārādhana is also viṣṇu-ārādhana .' *Indian man: In fact, even Brahma*-saṁhitā , Brahmājī says, *So "Viṣṇu is creating all the planetary systems. He's in His yoga*-nidrā . He is the original Govinda, and I worship Him." So that is why both names are used so synonymously. And that is why people are questioning me, and I have difficulty to answer them. Although I accept Kṛṣṇa as original Personality of Godhead, but how to explain to them? Prabhupāda: No, these are the references. *Jayādvaita: In here also. Should I read the verse? "All other incarnations are potentially situated in the original body of the primeval Lord. Thus, according to one's opinion, one may address Him as any one of the incarnations." Purport: "It is not contradictory for a devotee to call the Supreme Lord by any one of the various names of His plenary expansions, because the original Personality of Godhead includes all such categories. Since the plenary expansions exist within the original person, one may call Him by any of these names. In Śrī Caitanya*-bhāgavata Lord Caitanya says: 'I was lying asleep in the ocean of milk, but I was wakened by the call of Nāḍā, Śrī Advaita Prabhu.' Here the Lord refers to His form as Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu." *Translation: "Some say that Śrī Kṛṣṇa is directly Nara*-Nārāyaṇa, others say that He is directly Vāmana. Some say that Kṛṣṇa is the incarnation of Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. None of these statements is impossible. Each of them is as correct as the others. Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta states," Purport: 'According to the intimate relationships between Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the primeval Lord, and His devotees, the *Purāṇas* describe Him by various names. Sometimes He is called Nārāyaṇa, sometimes Upendra (Vāmana), the younger brother of Indra, King of heaven; and sometimes Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Sometimes He is called . . .' " *Prabhupāda: They are all viṣṇu*-tattva . *Indian man: In fact, I remember very vividly that in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you wrote that it was Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu who came down to bless Dhruva Mahārāja when the planetary system started trembling due to his tapasya . Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. This is why people are questioning me continuously that, "How can you call Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead and not Viṣṇu?" And I say: "All are viṣṇu-tattva ." But it is very difficult to explain to them the actual position of Kṛṣṇa, because only through chanting . . . *Prabhupāda: That is decided by Bhāgavatam , ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). That tu , the name Kṛṣṇa, in the incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa is also included, but this Kṛṣṇa is the origin. Indian man: Prabhupāda: So we have to take the direction. So that is also explained. Even if you say: "Kṛṣṇa is Vāmana," there is nothing wrong. If you believe that Kṛṣṇa is incarnation of Viṣṇu, there is nothing wrong. Indian man: I don't believe that. Prabhupāda: No, no, others. Others . . . Indian man: I believe Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Prabhupāda: Others. We simply accept, "Yes, it is all right." That's all. So that's a fact, because when Kṛṣṇa comes, He comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Indian man: I ask them then that, "Explain the three Viṣṇus—Mahā Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu and Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Even Viṣṇu Himself has expanded, what to talk of Kṛṣṇa." And then I ask them that "Kṛṣṇa came from which Viṣṇu? You tell me. If you can tell me that, then I will accept that Kṛṣṇa came from Viṣṇu. But if not, you have to accept my statement that Kṛṣṇa is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead. And you will not know Him unless you chant. Unless you chant." *Prabhupāda: Sometimes Mahā*-Viṣṇu wanted to see Kṛṣṇa. That is mentioned in the Bhāgavata , Indian man: Yes Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: And He took Arjuna with Him. *Indian man: That's right. That's right. My father*-mother did their entire lifetime pūjā of Śrīnāthajī, Śrīnāthajī. Prabhupāda: Śrīnāthajī is Gopāla. Indian man: Śrīnāthajī, we consider Him as Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, He is Kṛṣṇa. He's our Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. It is decided by the court. Śrīnāthajī, there are . . . Mādhavendra Purī's worshipable Gopāla . . . he discovered Gopāla in Govardhana. That Gopāla was delivered to . . . who is the ācārya ? Vallabhācārya. And it is decided by the court that Śrīnāthajī originally belongs to Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. By the court. This Mādhavendra Purī is the spiritual master of Īśvara Purī. And Īśvara Purī is the spiritual master of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So from Mādhavendra Purī is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. So his Deity is Gopāla. That Gopāla is Śrīnāthajī. *Indian man: When I was a young boy, eight years old, I went to Śrīnāthajī with my father*-mother, and there I had to take the brahma-samāna, brahma-smārana , which is the oath, taking of the oath in front of the Mahārāja and the priest of the Śrīnāthajī temple. And is that equal unto initiation, or is that just a ceremony by itself? Prabhupāda: No, initiation is another ceremony. Indian man: What are the qualifications required for a person in working life like me, household like me, like myself, to get initiated? Prabhupāda: No, you can be initiated. There is no . . . because you are following the rules and regulations. Indian man: Yes. Yes I am following. Prabhupāda: That's it. We initiate a person who follows the rules and regulations. Indian man: I am following all your rules and regulations. Prabhupāda: Then you can be initiated. Indian man: Yes. I think we have taken enough of your time, Prabhupāda. I would love to stay with you, and I would like to invite you to . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you stay here in our temple? Indian man: Probably I might. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got ladies' department and gentleman's department. You can stay. Indian man and wife: I would like to invite you to Poughkeepsie and stay with us if it is possible. Prabhupāda: Yes. How long it is? Indian man: Hundred miles north from here. Prabhupāda: So by car? Indian man: Yes, by car. Prabhupāda: It will take about four, five hours. Indian man: No, two and a half hours. Two and a half hours. Prabhupāda: Traveling is little difficult for me. So there are many Indians? *Indian man: There are about hundred and fifty Indian people. Thirty percent of them are Ārya*-samājīsts. They don't believe in anyone except doing havanas . Prabhupāda: Second edition of Muhammadans. Indian man: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Ārya*-samājī means another edition of the Muhammadans. Indian man: Some are Śiva followers, Śaivaites, of South India. *Prabhupāda: The Ārya*-samājīs, they do not believe in God, so how they are Śiva followers? Hodgepodge. No sāmajīs , but hodgepodge. Indian man: Yes, it is. They don't know what is Personality of Godhead. Prabhupāda: Opportunity followers. Indian man: Hodgepodge, that's right. Prabhupāda: Opportunists. Useless. They have no value. *Indian man: Thirty percent of the Indian families, they are Ārya*-samājīsts, and twenty percent are South Indian Śaivaites. I get a lot of argument that, "Rāmacandrajī did the pūjā of Śivajī at Rāmeśvaram, so Śiva is greater than Rāma." I said: "Consider this, that Rāma was so humble to do the pūjā of Śivajī, but in Rāmastotrāṇi it says, rāma rāmeti rāmeti rāmerāma manorāne, śāstranāma tat tulyam śrī-rāma-nāma rāmarāme . That is what Śivajī is telling Pārvatī. Śivajī is telling Pārvatī in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19)." I say: "Why does Śivajī say that? Why is Śivajī sitting in samādhi ? Why not Kṛṣṇa sitting in samādhi ? Why not Rāma sitting in samādhi ? Why not Mahā-Viṣṇu sitting in samādhi ? Because Śivajī's position is to serve Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa as Rāma is so humble that He came and even did His devotee's pūjā ." Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa is afraid of mother Yaśodā's rope. But that does not mean He is no longer the Supreme Lord. Indian man: Exactly, exactly, exactly. Prabhupāda: He's afraid of "Mother, don't bind Me." So everyone is afraid of Kṛṣṇa, and He is afraid of His mother's rope. Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: So does it mean Kṛṣṇa has become no more the Supreme? Indian man: In fact, you might have heard of Satya Sai Baba in India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Now there are some people in our community there at Poughkeepsie, they are all followers of Satya Sai Baba, and they've been telling me that "Anyone you pray, Kṛṣṇa, Rāma, Viṣṇu, it comes to Satya Sai Baba." I said: "Don't tell me that nonsense," I said. (laughter) "Satya Sai Baba is not Kṛṣṇa, and don't tell me that." In fact for Guru Pūrṇimā they invited me to Satya Sai Baba's bhajanas . I said: "No, I have my guru . I'm very happy. Don't disturb me. I have Kṛṣṇa, I have my guru , and I have my path. I don't have to go to anybody's guru , and I don't have to take anyone's teachings." I say: "My *Gītā* is here, written by Prabhupāda. I follow it, and that's it. I don't have to have extraordinary brains to follow everyone's *Gītā* or everything else. Here is my path." Prabhupāda: In South America there was a great criticism? Hari-śauri: South Africa. Prabhupāda: South Africa. Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Of Satya Sai. Hari-śauri: One man, he challenged that he could prove that Sai Baba is a fake. So he's written so many letters to Sai Baba to challenge him, but he's never received a reply. So that paper gave this article criticizing Sai Baba like that, and other gurus , and then in the same paper there was a very nice article concerning our Jagannātha Cart Festival. So practically they were appreciating that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is bona fide and these other people are nonsense. Indian man: Right. In fact, several people, even in our community in Poughkeepsie, received letters from Satya Sai Baba's followers that, "Here is a letter. Make ten copies and send the ten copies to ten different people. If you don't, Satya Sai Baba's thunderbolt will come and strike your family, and they'll be destroyed." Now no guru ever puts a thunderbolt on his devotee, and I said: "If that is a guru , I'll stay ten thousand miles away from him, because my guru is very kind and he'll bless me." I said: "No guru should ever put a thunderbolt on his devotee." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (aside) You can turn towards this. *Indian man: At Monticello in Catskill . . . I don't know if you know it. Monticello in Catskill Mountains here? Just about fifty*-sixty miles north, there is Muktananda. Hari-śauri: Muktananda. Indian man: Muktananda. And he has got his retreat, and some of our people go there. And I heard from them that he is teaching . . . he is quoting *Gītā* . But if you go to his room, oṁ namaḥ śivāya . I said: "This is contradiction." I said: "If he is a Śiva follower, he should teach Śiva Purāṇa and not *Gītā* ." I said this is . . . Prabhupāda: But they are actually impersonalists. They neither follow Śiva nor Kṛṣṇa. They are impersonalists. Indian man: Hypocrites. Prabhupāda: Their idea is the Absolute Truth is imperson. You can worship Him either as Śiva or as Kṛṣṇa, as you like. That is their philosophy. Yes. Indian man: Yes. But this is the height of hypocrisy, to teach *Gītā* and to chant oṁ namaḥ śivāya . *Prabhupāda: No, because they say: "Either way, you become impersonal at the end. You brahma*-liṅ . You become one with Brahma. But before you become brahma-liṅ , you can imagine some form, either Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu or Śiva or Durgā, the same thing." That is their . . . Indian man: In fact some of the arguments that I received were . . . "If you go to heaven, let's say, Vaikuṇṭha, then you become . . . you join the impersonal Brahman. Then you have nothing else to do." He says: "In material world we have family. We have something to do." I said: "If you believe in impersonalism, you have nothing to do. If you believe in personalism, you will serve the Lord there." Prabhupāda: Impersonal means if you have nothing to do, then you'll become mad. Indian man: Exactly. Prabhupāda: And again you come back to this material world. Indian man: Exactly. Now, Prabhupāda, I have taken too much of your time. I want to thank you very much. I humbly offer my obeisances. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Indian man: I wish that I can continue your work. Prabhupāda: Please do. You'll be happy. Kṛṣṇa will make you happy. Indian man: And huh . . . Prabhupāda: Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kas . . . (BG 18.69). (break) (end) Indian man: I came to offer my obeisances to you. I became a Life Member as a result of Gopāla Kṛṣṇa's talking to me. Prabhupāda: In Bombay? Indian man: No, sir, here. I came to offer you obeisances in Brooklyn temple, and I asked you a special permission as my Gurudeva, which you gladly gave me, to teach *Gītā* in Poughkeepsie, where I am. And since then I have been trying to do your work sincerely in Poughkeepsie. Prabhupāda: Poughkeepsie. Indian man: Yes, sir. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Indian man: It is hundred miles north of New York. I work there. I am an engineer, and I have been trying to spread Kṛṣṇa conscious movement of yours, trying to teach from your *Gītā* to the Indian community, and I have been slowly trying to get American people also involved. And, as I see, more and more American people are now coming in. And in fact, those people who are very steadfast, who come to attend my class, are the American people. I am very glad to see that they are taking very great interest. And . . . Prabhupāda: Indians are not taking so much. Indian man: No, sir, I'm . . . Prabhupāda: Indians are bara sāhīb . (laughs) Indian man: Ah. You see they have been going to . . . Prabhupāda: Ready? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I wanted to just finalize when you would join the festival tomorrow. I wanted to fix that up, so I could, you know, just do that. We're leaving Fifty*-ninth Street at two o'clock, and we're reaching downtown, the park, at four o'clock. In other words, it takes two hours, the route. At four o'clock we're going to have a Winnebago. Winnebago is like a small bus which has a . . . it has a lavatory in it. Hari-śauri: Like Satsvarūpa Mahārāja's traveling bus. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. It has a bathroom in it. That's going to accompany the parade in case at any time you require it, that will be right there. So it can pull alongside the cart. At four o'clock we'll arrive, and at about four*-thirty Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja will give a short introduction for you, and at four forty-five you'll speak. So at four forty-five you're expected to give the lecture. It begins at two o'clock at Fifty-ninth Street for two hours. Then by five, five-fifteen, the whole thing will be over. So I wanted to know what time you would like to join the parade. Prabhupāda: So you suggest. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it depends on a number of things. One thing is that your rest. After taking massage you take prasādam , and then your resting period. Another thing is how long you want to ride along on the cart. It depends on . . . I think it should depend on . . . I can't . . . no*-one can make that decision. We're agreeable to anything that you suggest. Devotees are enlivened simply that you're here in New York with us. Prabhupāda: So at two o'clock you start? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Prabhupāda: You want me at the starting point? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We want you to do simply what you feel would be best. Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the best? Starting point, my presence required? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it's not a question of required. I mean that's a very exciting time, you know, but I don't know if it's . . . I wouldn't say it's required. We're going to start. One way or the other, we have to start the parade. It's exciting at that time, probably, but you could also join midway. Suppose you could also join at Thirty*-fourth Street instead of Fifty-ninth Street. Halfway is about Thirty-fourth Street. So you could join there. Prabhupāda: That will be better. Hari-śauri: That would be about three o'clock. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That would be at about three o'clock. It depends upon your resting period also. Prabhupāda: No, that I will adjust. That is not the thing. I want to know when my joining will be very good. That I want to know. In the beginning or the middle, in the last, that you have to decide. Then I shall adjust. In London, I think . . . of course, the whole route I was present, but that was little troublesome because sometimes I am called by nature. But you say there will be a car. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, which is equipped . . . Prabhupāda: So under the circumstances, which time will be good? That you say. Then I shall adjust. That you consult, which time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, if I can have about five minutes, I'll ask a few people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then I'll adjust. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you're agreeable at any time as long as that convenience . . . that's a good convenience, I think, that we'll have that vehicle. Prabhupāda: That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I'll just inquire. This is a general idea of what's going on the whole day tomorrow. I'll leave it with Hari-śauri. Prabhupāda: The preaching is going on. Nobody has become our student? Indian man: Among the Indian people . . . Prabhupāda: Indian or European or American, it doesn't matter. Since you are preaching there, has anybody joined this movement? Indian man: No, sir. I have been begging. I've been begging people. Now I know that two American people will become steadfast, and I will make them . . . sure that they join the movement, but among the Indian people, this is the problem. Prabhupāda: Whether you have joined? *Indian man: I have joined. I'm a Life Member. I come to the temple. I study your books all the time. I have your photo. I do your ārati every day without fail. Without fail. Nayanābhirāma came to my house two weeks ago, and I showed him everything, Kṛṣṇa and your photo next to it, and I every day do pūjā . Complete vegetarian, and we are doing ārati every day, first obeisances to you, my father*-mother, and Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Your father*-mother here? *Indian man: No, sir. They are dead now. They have expired. But I still offer my obeisances to them. First obeisances to you, then to Kṛṣṇa, then to my father*-mother, and then I start my pūjā . Prabhupāda: That's . . . Indian man: And I do complete ārati and everything, because I want your blessings. I wish that I have a guru like you every birth after birth. But one of the problem, Prabhupāda, personally, I have found among the Indian people is that because we are used to so many demigods, they still don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are so many arguments I get that like . . . Prabhupāda: There is no question of argument. Indian man: No no. *Prabhupāda: It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Indian man: Yes sir. *Prabhupāda: But if they do not accept Bhagavad*-gītā as the authority, then they are fools. Indian man: Yes, they are. Prabhupāda: So fools cannot be enlightened. That is the difficulty. Indian man: And this is one of the biggest problems. Prabhupāda: If they do not accept the authority, then they are fools. Indian man: Yes. After I teach *Gītā* and I try to tell them to please sing bhajan . . . *Prabhupāda: That is not their fault. Even the big, big leaders of India, even Gandhi, they do not know actually. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. The Bhagavad-gītā has been misinterpreted, misused by the leaders, by the politicians, by the so-called philosophers. Everyone has misused Bhagavad-gītā . Indian man: I'll tell you one thing, that Swami Chinmayananda . . . Prabhupāda: He's a great . . . Indian man: He's great, but I'll tell you what happened. Prabhupāda: "Great" means great fool. Indian man: Yes. In Third Chapter where Kṛṣṇa is saying: "Renounce your everything to Me." Okay? And the word matam is used, matam . Now Swami Chinmayananda is saying: "That's My opinion," that's what Kṛṣṇa is telling, and they will be freed of all the work. And you have written matam means scriptural injunctions. And I tried to show the students who come to the class that "This is the difference. Look at this, very big difference," because if Kṛṣṇa is only giving His opinion, then He's talking like a diplomat, not talking like God. But if He says: "This is the law . . ." And I explained to them that like Bible has got ten commandments . . . *Prabhupāda: And another thing, even Kṛṣṇa says, giving His opinion—that's taking it as it is—Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat ( BG 7.7). So He's the supreme authority. So supreme authority's matam is a high court judgment. There is no argument anyone. The judgment is given by the high court. Final decision. So if Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, then who can give him better opinion than Him? For argument's sake, even if He says . . . any gentleman will say like that, that . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "You do it." He is Supreme Lord, He can force you, but He does not do that. So although His matam is the Supreme, but as a gentle preacher, He says: "That is My matam ." But if you are sane, if you know that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority, then His matam is final. *Indian man: Right. And that's why I try to show the difference to people, that "Please follow Prabhupāda's Gītā . And please make sure that when you read, you read Gītā As It Is." This is why I'm trying to show the differences to people. Personally there is only one question I have, and that is, throughout all the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatams that you have translated so far, I see all the time any, like Kardama Muni or other, all other great sages, whenever they do tapasya , every time Mahā-Viṣṇu comes down. Now I know that throughout other . . . even Back to Godhead , you have considered Mahā-Viṣṇu as an expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yet Mahā-Viṣṇu is coming every time as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So what is the subtle position here? *Prabhupāda: There is no difference between . . . just like . . . it has been explained in the Brahma*-saṁhitā . Just like one candle, then you kindle another candle, then you kindle another, another, another, another. So you say: "This is first, this is second, this is third, this is fourth." But so far candlepower is concerned, they are all the same. Either you take first or the second or the third, so far the candlepower is concerned, that is all the same. Still, you have to say: "This is first, this is second, that is third, this is fourth, this is . . ." Indian man: I was trying to . . . I was trying . . . *Prabhupāda: So God and His different expansions, they are of same power. Rāmādi*-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu, kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo . . . *Indian man: . . . govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . *Prabhupāda: So He is existing with all the incarnations, rāmādi*-mūrtiṣu . Indian man: Yes, even Rāmacandra is . . . Prabhupāda: So Rāma is not less than Kṛṣṇa, but He is incarnation. This is the conclusion. *Indian man: Because I was trying to refer to Govindāṣṭakam , where it says (sings) śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā āra gokuleśa gopāla govardhana*-nātha viṣṇu, jīveti amṛtamedhadevo govindaṁ dāmodaram ada vetti . He's saying, śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā āra gokuleśa gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu . That is what I was trying to see that is really . . . I know that Kṛṣṇa's expansion is Mahā-Viṣṇu, but still, why do they say govardhana-nātha viṣṇu ? That's what I was trying to understand. Please don't misunderstand me. I am trying to understand from you. *Prabhupāda: No, no, Govardhana . . . everyone is viṣṇu*-tattva. Viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva , like that. So all of them on the Viṣṇu category. That's all. Viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti. Viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti (BS 5.46). These things are there. So Godhead is viṣṇu-tattva . So sometimes Viṣṇu, sometimes Nārāyaṇa, sometimes Govinda, sometimes Kṛṣṇa, like that. *Indian man: That's very nice, because one can understand very well. Because I always took Mahā*-Viṣṇu as the expansion of Kṛṣṇa, but still, when I went to Govindāṣṭakam and then also like Brahma-saṁhitā says, yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā . . . (BS 5.48). *Prabhupāda: . . . loma*-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ . *Indian man: . . . jagad*-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya (Prabhupāda quotes same verse simultaneously) kalā-viśeṣo govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . So he says Mahā-Viṣṇu is even one expansion of Kṛṣṇa, yet in Govindāṣṭakam they say, govardhana . . . gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu, śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā gokuleśa, gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu . *Prabhupāda: They're all viṣṇu*-tattva. Viṣṇu-sahasra-nāma-stotra . *Indian man: Because many people in . . . at least, among the Indians I get very big argument about it, that it is Mahā*-Viṣṇu who is Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Kṛṣṇa is only one avatāra of His. And I try to . . . *Prabhupāda: That argument is discussed in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Hari-śauri: First volume? Prabhupāda: Yes, first volume you see. See the contents. You can't find it? When he is discussing, somebody, says Viṣṇu is the origin? So children, how many? Indian man: No children. Prabhupāda: No children. Indian man: No children Prabhupāda: That is good than another. (laughs) No responsibility. Indian man: I have decided that in about five, ten years, I'll work that much only. Afterwards I'm going to go to work for you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Indian man: Because I don't find any more pleasures, you know, in anything. As I go on chanting and chanting and chanting, sometime, Prabhupāda . . . oh, my first dream that came when I joined your movement . . . first dream that I came . . . and I told my wife about it in the morning. I said, first I saw a moon, and then I saw another large planet coming up, and then on the top of it I saw the lotus feet of the Lord. And when I saw the lotus feet of the Lord, I saw you coming on a swan and doing His pūjā . And I kept on shouting to my wife that, "Please see, Prabhupāda is here. Please see. He is doing pūjā of lotus feet of the Lord." And that was my first dream that came. Sometimes after chanting all the time I feel as if He is walking next to me. I can feel as if His bluish body is right next to me, and all the time I have a feeling that somebody is next to me, you know. I don't know whether I'm going crazy or I'm . . . *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is already there. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). (Tamāla Kṛṣṇa enters) So? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I asked, I took a poll, census poll of about six or seven GBC men, including Kīrtanānanda, Rāmeśvara, Bali*-mardana, so many men who know New York, and they all thought that if you join the parade at Twenty-third Street . . . *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-third. At what time? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah, it'll be . . . it should be at about 3:15, like that. Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then it will be nice. Because the whole parade is about fifty*-four blocks, and you'll be riding for about nineteen blocks. It means your ride will take about forty-five minutes. Prabhupāda: So what time I'll have to start? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From here? Prabhupāda: Somebody will come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think I will probably come. Kīrtanānanda will also . . . Prabhupāda: At what time? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think, say, it's going to be either 2:45 or 3:00. Tomorrow morning I'll let you know. Prabhupāda: So at 3:00 I shall be ready. You can come and take me. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I think at 3:00 . . . but then by the time we get in the car . . . I think it will work, 3:00 o'clock. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Three o'clock, I'll be ready. You come and take. In the meantime, I shall finish my . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that will leave a little time for resting. The whole program should be over by about . . . Prabhupāda: So tomorrow I shall take lunch at 1:00. Hari-śauri: One o'clock. Prabhupāda: That's all. Then, by 3:00 o'clock, I shall be ready. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Thik hai. (Okay then.) Kṛṣṇa is preparing you to join this movement wholeheartedly. It is very nice. (to devotee) Now you have got it? *Jayādvaita: Yes. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja quotes, ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28): "All these incarnations of Godhead are either plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras , but Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself." Then he says: "The Bhāgavatam describes the symptoms and deeds of the incarnations in general and counts Śrī Kṛṣṇa among them. This made Sūta Gosvāmī greatly apprehensive. Therefore he distinguished each incarnation by its specific symptom. All the incarnations of Godhead are plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras , but the primeval Lord is Śrī Kṛṣṇa. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the fountainhead of all incarnations. An opponent may say: 'This is your interpretation, but actually the Supreme Lord is Nārāyaṇa, who is in the transcendental realm. He, Nārāyaṇa, incarnates as Lord Kṛṣṇa. This is the meaning of the verse as I see it. There is no need for further consideration.' To such a misguided interpreter we may reply, 'Why should you suggest such fallacious logic? An interpretation is never accepted as evidence if it opposes the principle of scripture. One should not state a predicate before its subject, for it cannot thus stand without proper support.' If I do not state a subject, I do not state a predicate. First I speak the former and then the latter. The predicate of a sentence is what is unknown to the reader, whereas the subject is what is known to him. For example, we may say: 'This vipra is a greatly learned man.' In this sentence, the vipra is the subject, and the predicate is his erudition. The man's being a vipra is known, but his erudition is unknown. Therefore the person is identified first and his erudition later. In the same way, all these incarnations were known, but whose incarnations they are was unknown. First the word ete , 'these,' establishes the subject, the incarnations. Then 'plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras' follows as the predicate. In the same way, when Kṛṣṇa was first counted among the incarnations, specific knowledge about Him was still unknown. Therefore the word Kṛṣṇa appears as the subject, followed by the predicate, describing Him as the original Personality of Godhead. This establishes that Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead. The original Personality of Godhead is therefore necessarily Kṛṣṇa. Had Kṛṣṇa been the plenary portion and Nārāyaṇa the primeval Lord, the statement of Sūta Gosvāmī would have been reversed. Thus he would have said: 'Nārāyaṇa, the source of all incarnations, is the original Personality of Godhead. He has appeared as Śrī Kṛṣṇa.' " *Prabhupāda: So everything is given with logic and argument. Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). First of all He's grouped among the incarnations, but Kṛṣṇa is not incarnation. He's bhagavān svayam . Indian man: He comes original. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you argue against the authority of *Bhāgavatam* , then that argument has no value. *Indian man: That's where the problem in India occuring. Everyone is saying God is Mahā*-Viṣṇu, and Kṛṣṇa and Rāma are only avatāras , and that's where the big argument came in. In fact, I talked to so many . . . *Prabhupāda: Otherwise why Sūta Gosvāmī, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28)? And Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). So how one can say like that? That means less intelligent. If Kṛṣṇa . . . if one accepts the authority of Bhagavad*-gītā , Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Then how they falsely say? Aham ādir hi devānām . Find out this verse. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Sarvaśaḥ . Kṛṣṇa jhoot bol rahe hain kya? (Is Kṛṣṇa telling lies?) Indian man: No. Never. He has no reason to cheat us. He has no reason to lie. Hari-śauri: Shall I read the . . .? Prabhupāda: Um hmm. Hari-śauri: "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for, in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." Purport? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: "As stated in Brahma*-saṁhitā , Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. No one is greater than Him; *He is the cause of all causes. Here it is also stated by the Lord personally that He is the cause of all the demigods and the sages. Even the demigods and great sages cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. They can neither understand His name nor His personality, so what is the position of the so*-called scholars of this tiny planet? No one can understand why the Supreme God comes to earth as an ordinary human being and executes such commonplace and yet wonderful activities. One should know, then, that scholarship is not the qualification necessary to understand Kṛṣṇa. Even the demigods and the great sages have tried to understand Kṛṣṇa by their mental speculation, and they have failed to do so. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is stated clearly that even the great demigods are not able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They can speculate to the limits of their imperfect senses and can reach the opposite conclusion of impersonalism, of something not manifested by the three qualities of material nature. Or they can imagine something by mental speculation. But it is not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa by such foolish speculation." *"Here the Lord indirectly says that if anyone wants to know the Absolute Truth, 'Here I am, present as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I am the Supreme.' One should know this. Although one cannot understand the inconceivable Lord who is personally present, He nonetheless exists. We can actually understand Kṛṣṇa, who is eternal, full of bliss and knowledge, simply by studying His words in Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . The impersonal Brahman can be conceived by persons who are already in the inferior energy of the Lord, but the Personality of Godhead cannot be conceived unless one is in the transcendental position. Because most men cannot understand Kṛṣṇa in His actual situation, out of His causeless mercy He descends to show favor to such speculators. Yet despite the Supreme Lord's uncommon activities, these speculators, due to contamination in the material energy, still think that the impersonal Brahman is the Supreme. Only the devotees, who are fully surrendered unto the Supreme Lord, can understand, by the grace of the Lord, that He is Kṛṣṇa. The devotees of the Lord do not bother about the impersonal Brahman conception of God. Their faith and devotion bring them to surrender immediately unto the Supreme Lord, and out of the causeless mercy of Kṛṣṇa, they can understand Kṛṣṇa. No one else can understand Him. So even great sages agree, 'What is ātmā ? What is the Supreme? It is He whom we have to worship.' " Indian man: In my class I run into lot of arguments, especially from our Indian people, and this is one of the biggest arguments that people pose. They say: "Why are you calling yourselves Vaiṣṇavas and not Kṛṣṇayas?" Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: If I call Kṛṣṇa . . . I accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme Personality of Godhead, then the question comes to me, "Why are you calling yourself Vaiṣṇavas? Why not Kṛṣṇayas?" *Prabhupāda: That already is explained, that Kṛṣṇa or Rāma, Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa, They are all viṣṇu*-tattva . Therefore Viṣṇu is the common word for everyone. Just like candle. Everyone is candle, but still, this is first candle, this is second candle, this is third candle, like that. So Godhead means all viṣṇu-tattva . They are not jīva-tattva . So therefore those who are devotee of God, they are called Vaiṣṇava. Hari-śauri: This specific word Vaiṣṇava, that refers to Viṣṇu? Worshipers of Viṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇu asyra devataḥ iti vaiṣṇavaḥ . Indian man: Throughout *Vedas* also, Viṣṇu is the yajñeśvara . Prabhupāda: The supreme, yes. Indian man: Yajño vai viṣṇuḥ . *Prabhupāda: Viṣṇur ārādhyate. Viṣṇur ārādhyate, nānyat tat*-toṣa-kāraṇam. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). Viṣṇor ārādhanam. Ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param . These are the śāstric . . . that viṣṇor ārādhana . Kṛṣṇa-ārādhana is also viṣṇu-ārādhana .' *Indian man: In fact, even Brahma*-saṁhitā , Brahmājī says, *So "Viṣṇu is creating all the planetary systems. He's in His yoga*-nidrā . He is the original Govinda, and I worship Him." So that is why both names are used so synonymously. And that is why people are questioning me, and I have difficulty to answer them. Although I accept Kṛṣṇa as original Personality of Godhead, but how to explain to them? Prabhupāda: No, these are the references. *Jayādvaita: In here also. Should I read the verse? "All other incarnations are potentially situated in the original body of the primeval Lord. Thus, according to one's opinion, one may address Him as any one of the incarnations." Purport: "It is not contradictory for a devotee to call the Supreme Lord by any one of the various names of His plenary expansions, because the original Personality of Godhead includes all such categories. Since the plenary expansions exist within the original person, one may call Him by any of these names. In Śrī Caitanya*-bhāgavata Lord Caitanya says: 'I was lying asleep in the ocean of milk, but I was wakened by the call of Nāḍā, Śrī Advaita Prabhu.' Here the Lord refers to His form as Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu." *Translation: "Some say that Śrī Kṛṣṇa is directly Nara*-Nārāyaṇa, others say that He is directly Vāmana. Some say that Kṛṣṇa is the incarnation of Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. None of these statements is impossible. Each of them is as correct as the others. Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta states," Purport: 'According to the intimate relationships between Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the primeval Lord, and His devotees, the *Purāṇas* describe Him by various names. Sometimes He is called Nārāyaṇa, sometimes Upendra (Vāmana), the younger brother of Indra, King of heaven; and sometimes Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Sometimes He is called . . .' " *Prabhupāda: They are all viṣṇu*-tattva . *Indian man: In fact, I remember very vividly that in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you wrote that it was Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu who came down to bless Dhruva Mahārāja when the planetary system started trembling due to his tapasya . Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. This is why people are questioning me continuously that, "How can you call Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead and not Viṣṇu?" And I say: "All are viṣṇu-tattva ." But it is very difficult to explain to them the actual position of Kṛṣṇa, because only through chanting . . . *Prabhupāda: That is decided by Bhāgavatam , ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). That tu , the name Kṛṣṇa, in the incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa is also included, but this Kṛṣṇa is the origin. Indian man: Prabhupāda: So we have to take the direction. So that is also explained. Even if you say: "Kṛṣṇa is Vāmana," there is nothing wrong. If you believe that Kṛṣṇa is incarnation of Viṣṇu, there is nothing wrong. Indian man: I don't believe that. Prabhupāda: No, no, others. Others . . . Indian man: I believe Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Prabhupāda: Others. We simply accept, "Yes, it is all right." That's all. So that's a fact, because when Kṛṣṇa comes, He comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Indian man: I ask them then that, "Explain the three Viṣṇus—Mahā Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu and Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Even Viṣṇu Himself has expanded, what to talk of Kṛṣṇa." And then I ask them that "Kṛṣṇa came from which Viṣṇu? You tell me. If you can tell me that, then I will accept that Kṛṣṇa came from Viṣṇu. But if not, you have to accept my statement that Kṛṣṇa is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead. And you will not know Him unless you chant. Unless you chant." *Prabhupāda: Sometimes Mahā*-Viṣṇu wanted to see Kṛṣṇa. That is mentioned in the Bhāgavata , Indian man: Yes Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: And He took Arjuna with Him. *Indian man: That's right. That's right. My father*-mother did their entire lifetime pūjā of Śrīnāthajī, Śrīnāthajī. Prabhupāda: Śrīnāthajī is Gopāla. Indian man: Śrīnāthajī, we consider Him as Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, He is Kṛṣṇa. He's our Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. It is decided by the court. Śrīnāthajī, there are . . . Mādhavendra Purī's worshipable Gopāla . . . he discovered Gopāla in Govardhana. That Gopāla was delivered to . . . who is the ācārya ? Vallabhācārya. And it is decided by the court that Śrīnāthajī originally belongs to Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. By the court. This Mādhavendra Purī is the spiritual master of Īśvara Purī. And Īśvara Purī is the spiritual master of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So from Mādhavendra Purī is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. So his Deity is Gopāla. That Gopāla is Śrīnāthajī. *Indian man: When I was a young boy, eight years old, I went to Śrīnāthajī with my father*-mother, and there I had to take the brahma-samāna, brahma-smārana , which is the oath, taking of the oath in front of the Mahārāja and the priest of the Śrīnāthajī temple. And is that equal unto initiation, or is that just a ceremony by itself? Prabhupāda: No, initiation is another ceremony. Indian man: What are the qualifications required for a person in working life like me, household like me, like myself, to get initiated? Prabhupāda: No, you can be initiated. There is no . . . because you are following the rules and regulations. Indian man: Yes. Yes I am following. Prabhupāda: That's it. We initiate a person who follows the rules and regulations. Indian man: I am following all your rules and regulations. Prabhupāda: Then you can be initiated. Indian man: Yes. I think we have taken enough of your time, Prabhupāda. I would love to stay with you, and I would like to invite you to . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you stay here in our temple? Indian man: Probably I might. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got ladies' department and gentleman's department. You can stay. Indian man and wife: I would like to invite you to Poughkeepsie and stay with us if it is possible. Prabhupāda: Yes. How long it is? Indian man: Hundred miles north from here. Prabhupāda: So by car? Indian man: Yes, by car. Prabhupāda: It will take about four, five hours. Indian man: No, two and a half hours. Two and a half hours. Prabhupāda: Traveling is little difficult for me. So there are many Indians? *Indian man: There are about hundred and fifty Indian people. Thirty percent of them are Ārya*-samājīsts. They don't believe in anyone except doing havanas . Prabhupāda: Second edition of Muhammadans. Indian man: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Ārya*-samājī means another edition of the Muhammadans. Indian man: Some are Śiva followers, Śaivaites, of South India. *Prabhupāda: The Ārya*-samājīs, they do not believe in God, so how they are Śiva followers? Hodgepodge. No sāmajīs , but hodgepodge. Indian man: Yes, it is. They don't know what is Personality of Godhead. Prabhupāda: Opportunity followers. Indian man: Hodgepodge, that's right. Prabhupāda: Opportunists. Useless. They have no value. *Indian man: Thirty percent of the Indian families, they are Ārya*-samājīsts, and twenty percent are South Indian Śaivaites. I get a lot of argument that, "Rāmacandrajī did the pūjā of Śivajī at Rāmeśvaram, so Śiva is greater than Rāma." I said: "Consider this, that Rāma was so humble to do the pūjā of Śivajī, but in Rāmastotrāṇi it says, rāma rāmeti rāmeti rāmerāma manorāne, śāstranāma tat tulyam śrī-rāma-nāma rāmarāme . That is what Śivajī is telling Pārvatī. Śivajī is telling Pārvatī in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19)." I say: "Why does Śivajī say that? Why is Śivajī sitting in samādhi ? Why not Kṛṣṇa sitting in samādhi ? Why not Rāma sitting in samādhi ? Why not Mahā-Viṣṇu sitting in samādhi ? Because Śivajī's position is to serve Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa as Rāma is so humble that He came and even did His devotee's pūjā ." Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa is afraid of mother Yaśodā's rope. But that does not mean He is no longer the Supreme Lord. Indian man: Exactly, exactly, exactly. Prabhupāda: He's afraid of "Mother, don't bind Me." So everyone is afraid of Kṛṣṇa, and He is afraid of His mother's rope. Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: So does it mean Kṛṣṇa has become no more the Supreme? Indian man: In fact, you might have heard of Satya Sai Baba in India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Now there are some people in our community there at Poughkeepsie, they are all followers of Satya Sai Baba, and they've been telling me that "Anyone you pray, Kṛṣṇa, Rāma, Viṣṇu, it comes to Satya Sai Baba." I said: "Don't tell me that nonsense," I said. (laughter) "Satya Sai Baba is not Kṛṣṇa, and don't tell me that." In fact for Guru Pūrṇimā they invited me to Satya Sai Baba's bhajanas . I said: "No, I have my guru . I'm very happy. Don't disturb me. I have Kṛṣṇa, I have my guru , and I have my path. I don't have to go to anybody's guru , and I don't have to take anyone's teachings." I say: "My *Gītā* is here, written by Prabhupāda. I follow it, and that's it. I don't have to have extraordinary brains to follow everyone's *Gītā* or everything else. Here is my path." Prabhupāda: In South America there was a great criticism? Hari-śauri: South Africa. Prabhupāda: South Africa. Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Of Satya Sai. Hari-śauri: One man, he challenged that he could prove that Sai Baba is a fake. So he's written so many letters to Sai Baba to challenge him, but he's never received a reply. So that paper gave this article criticizing Sai Baba like that, and other gurus , and then in the same paper there was a very nice article concerning our Jagannātha Cart Festival. So practically they were appreciating that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is bona fide and these other people are nonsense. Indian man: Right. In fact, several people, even in our community in Poughkeepsie, received letters from Satya Sai Baba's followers that, "Here is a letter. Make ten copies and send the ten copies to ten different people. If you don't, Satya Sai Baba's thunderbolt will come and strike your family, and they'll be destroyed." Now no guru ever puts a thunderbolt on his devotee, and I said: "If that is a guru , I'll stay ten thousand miles away from him, because my guru is very kind and he'll bless me." I said: "No guru should ever put a thunderbolt on his devotee." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (aside) You can turn towards this. *Indian man: At Monticello in Catskill . . . I don't know if you know it. Monticello in Catskill Mountains here? Just about fifty*-sixty miles north, there is Muktananda. Hari-śauri: Muktananda. Indian man: Muktananda. And he has got his retreat, and some of our people go there. And I heard from them that he is teaching . . . he is quoting *Gītā* . But if you go to his room, oṁ namaḥ śivāya . I said: "This is contradiction." I said: "If he is a Śiva follower, he should teach Śiva Purāṇa and not *Gītā* ." I said this is . . . Prabhupāda: But they are actually impersonalists. They neither follow Śiva nor Kṛṣṇa. They are impersonalists. Indian man: Hypocrites. Prabhupāda: Their idea is the Absolute Truth is imperson. You can worship Him either as Śiva or as Kṛṣṇa, as you like. That is their philosophy. Yes. Indian man: Yes. But this is the height of hypocrisy, to teach *Gītā* and to chant oṁ namaḥ śivāya . *Prabhupāda: No, because they say: "Either way, you become impersonal at the end. You brahma*-liṅ . You become one with Brahma. But before you become brahma-liṅ , you can imagine some form, either Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu or Śiva or Durgā, the same thing." That is their . . . Indian man: In fact some of the arguments that I received were . . . "If you go to heaven, let's say, Vaikuṇṭha, then you become . . . you join the impersonal Brahman. Then you have nothing else to do." He says: "In material world we have family. We have something to do." I said: "If you believe in impersonalism, you have nothing to do. If you believe in personalism, you will serve the Lord there." Prabhupāda: Impersonal means if you have nothing to do, then you'll become mad. Indian man: Exactly. Prabhupāda: And again you come back to this material world. Indian man: Exactly. Now, Prabhupāda, I have taken too much of your time. I want to thank you very much. I humbly offer my obeisances. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Indian man: I wish that I can continue your work. Prabhupāda: Please do. You'll be happy. Kṛṣṇa will make you happy. Indian man: And huh . . . Prabhupāda: Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kas . . . (BG 18.69). (break) (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . 7*-UP with ice. *Hari-śauri: 7*-UP? We'll have to send someone out for it. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rādhā*-vallabha should go. Prabhupāda: So, so far I was there, it was successful. What was the next? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we were selling prasādam . I think we must have made somewhere between five and ten thousand dollars so far from prasādam sales. That's in addition to the free feast. We served a free feast to five thousand people when I left. Prabhupāda: Oh, you did not stay there? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, still . . . it's so big. I estimated that through three to four hours there were thirty to forty thousand people that went in and out of that park. Prabhupāda: Still they are eating? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're still eating. Every piece of burfī we sold cost one dollar. Prabhupāda: What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just a piece of burfī . . . Prabhupāda: Burfī ? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they were charging one dollar for one square. Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they were paying. Watermelon, for one slice, half a dollar. Prabhupāda: Fifty cents. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty cents. The whole watermelon only cost one dollar. We got about thirty slices out of it. And books . . . Prabhupāda: People, they are simple here. They are not, about money matters, so much anxiety. They have got enough money that they don't care. They want, it is good taste, that's all. And why they did not give prasādam to that boy who was crazy . . . (indistinct) . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He got. I'm sure he must have gotten. Everybody was given free feast. Feast was very good. I tasted it. It was nicely prepared. Prabhupāda: How many preparations were there? *Bali*-mardana: Very hard to estimate. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many preparations in the feast? There was halavā, sabjī , very good sabjī by Ṛṣi Kumāra, rice, sweet, lemonade, popper—six preps. And purī , seven preps. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Very good preps, sumptuous. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes. Besides that, we had booths with watermelon, lassī and burfī . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lassī was selling very big. We could not supply it fast enough. *Bali*-mardana: We could not . . . all the time, those booths, there was a line. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because this was our first year, we were not expecting such a big turnout, so we did not have sufficient stands to meet everybody's needs. Prabhupāda: And the police officer has approved. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the policemen sat down at the end of the park later on. Prabhupāda: You gave them prasādam ? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Why? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm not sure. I didn't deal with them. They were dealt with by Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa. We'll bring them some present tomorrow. But they made the statement that, "If every parade was so beautiful and so nicely orderly, we would be very happy." Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They said it was very orderly. Prabhupāda: And that cannot be expected from any other group, only in this group. Such a huge crowd, and there was not a single instance of violence. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Except that one time. One boy was punched out. *Hari-śauri: (referring to 7*-UP) I sent someone out. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The procession was very well attended. Prabhupāda: Television. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes. ABC, CBS and Channel Five. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All of the GBC men said it was the biggest single festival ever held in ISKCON's history. They all admitted that there was no festival ever held anywhere, even in India, no single festival in India. There was not any one day at any paṇḍāl where there was that many people who took prasādam and who attended such a long procession for two hours. Prabhupāda: I think in the beginning . . . (indistinct) . . . you were there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was there. Yeah, that was pretty big, in 1969. That was gigantic. Prabhupāda: That was also very big. And there was also a crazy man. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's right. We didn't give any invitation cards to our temple here, but we were making announcements. But I think people will come, anyway. They'll find out where our Hare Kṛṣṇa center is. *Bali*-mardana: They were distributing books, magazines. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Books and magazines were given, but we didn't give any free cards. Usually we give free cards, but there was so much . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? They'll come and take. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll come here, anyway. We didn't give any address card. Do you think people will come anyway? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even without getting a card. Prabhupāda: No, this is better, to give a card. Many Indians were standing when I came. *Bali*-mardana: Did you see the Indians? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think at least three thousand Indians attended, minimum. A huge crowd of Indians. But the big thing was not the Indians, it was the American people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a good location for the festival, very important place, Washington Square Park. It's the center. Prabhupāda: Best thing would have been to keep the deities for a week there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That would not have been permitted. They only permitted us legally two hours for everything. That's why we were rushing everything. We only had two hours legally for the whole program. Prabhupāda: Yes, then there is no need. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I heard people say: "We've never seen such a festival, never seen such a parade." I heard these comments. One man said . . . someone said: "What's going on?" and he said: "Oh, they have so many things going on here." They were very appreciative. And actually we could not put our full energy into it this year because we were so busy preparing the building simultaneously. Prabhupāda: And above all, the atmosphere, the weather, was very nice. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes, Kṛṣṇa has blessed us. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) The breeze was there. We did not feel any . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No discomfort. Prabhupāda: . . . fatigue. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And there was nearly four hundred to five hundred devotees there. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will stay in the temple? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they've been staying here. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no difficulty to accommodate them. Prabhupāda: Yes, Nārāyaṇa told me also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know, Prabhupāda, I really feel like I should concentrate a lot of my preaching here in New York. Prabhupāda: Do that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What do you think? You told me . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Preaching is required, here or there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You once said: "A good businessman, if he knows how to do it, he can make more money sitting in one place . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Money is not our aim. Our aim is how people will understand Kṛṣṇa. *Bali*-mardana: He is just using that as an analogy for preaching. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That if you have a good place, many people can be attracted, as many as moving around to many places. Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja was in favor of preaching in the city because you can get many men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But do you think I should travel a lot, or what is the best thing? Prabhupāda: Both things should be done. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Both. So if you . . . we will try to, er . . . we were hoping that you could give us another chance by coming back next year. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I'll come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you do say that to a lot of different temples. But we will try to make this doubly big. Prabhupāda: Normal, so long I live, I must come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we get on Fifth Avenue, you'll come again? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we will double the amount of people, promise. *Bali*-mardana: And double the prasādam . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We will double everything if you are here, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. I can stay here also. I like especially New York, because I started the movement here. And because there are so many branches, if I go they'll become enlivened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, right, just like we are enlivened. Prabhupāda: Everyone wants. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone wants you to come. Prabhupāda: That is natural. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Question of love. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: New York was your second home after India. Prabhupāda: Yes, I say fatherland. India, motherland; this is fatherland. *Bali*-mardana: It is so nice that now in New York they are receiving you so nicely, this parade. Everyone is turning out to greet you. You are like the local boy who made good. So now they are receiving you very grandly. Prabhupāda: Yes, continue this program. People will be appreciative. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking that we could make a point to have many big festivals here each year, not just this one, but many. Prabhupāda: Yes, at least three, four you can do. On Janmāṣṭamī, one; Gaura Pūrṇimā; *for Śrī Rāma*-navamī; *and one, Ratha*-yātrā. *Bali*-mardana: We can do New York for the spring, summer and fall. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: Because the weather is nice. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That coincides. Rāma*-navamī is spring, Ratha-yātrā is summer, and Janmāṣṭamī is fall. Hari-śauri: Gaura Pūrṇimā would be a bit difficult, though. Everybody is in India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's not possible. *Bali*-mardana: We could do that inside. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But those three . . . *Prabhupāda: Janmāṣṭamī, take Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa procession. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On carts? Prabhupāda: No, on siṁhāsana , carried by hand. *Bali*-mardana: Palanquin. Prabhupāda: Palanquin, yes; no, the siṁhāsana as it is. Just like this is siṁhāsana , two big poles down, and tie it with . . . cut it with legs and carry, four men or eight men change. Change the soldiers. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not on carts, not on big chariot. *Prabhupāda: No. Chariot, only Ratha*-yātrā. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll make a big advertisement. We'll call it "Fall Festival." This festival, we called it "Summer Festival." See, people respond to that. If you say Ratha*-yātrā, they can't even pronounce the word. So we call it "Summer Festival," and they came. Hari-śauri: "Summer Festival" sounds very attractive. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone was saying: "Oh, that means for me, Summer Festival." Hari-śauri: "Ecstasy Outdoors." Prabhupāda: And Jayānanda should be congratulated. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. You should give one letter, written. I . . . *Bali*-mardana: The carts looked magnificent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two people worked the hardest, Prabhupāda . . . Jayānanda and all of his assistants, and Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa. He did all of the publicity and advertising. Prabhupāda: They should be congratulated. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These two men, they worked the hardest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They worked for two months in a row, solid. The carts were very good, I think. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very nice, very strong. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Big. Strong. Because you gave him that warning. When he heard that, oh, he became very . . . "I must do it right." We told him, "Now you will have to be replaced. Prabhupāda has said that 'Jayānanda's wheels will never hold up.' So we have to find a replacement for you." (Prabhupāda chuckles) So he took no chances. Prabhupāda: In San Francisco it also happened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seems to me that he must be a great devotee of Lord Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: Same thing happened in London also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? The legs, wheels. Hari-śauri: That's why they gave difficulty, the authorities, because the wheels broke? Prabhupāda: No, that is wrong idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that happened, though. I remember hearing about it. This Jayānanda, it seems, must be a very faithful devotee of Lord Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: Now, where these things will be kept? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our garage. No problem. That's one of the advantages of our garage. It's one block away and it has ten thousand square foot area, so we can store all the carts easily. Hari-śauri: Good storage is very important. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And one block away in Manhattan is very unusual. Prabhupāda: Be careful that termite may not attack. *Bali*-mardana: Termites. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. I'll make a note. *Bali*-mardana: There are not many termites in New York. We are fortunate. In Hawaii there are many termites. But here you don't have to usually protect wood against termites. Here the wintertime kills them, it gets so cold. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very cold. Hari-śauri: That kills them. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There were devotees from Miami, Gainesville, Atlanta, Washington, Baltimore, Boston, Detroit, Toronto, Montreal, Los Angeles, Vancouver . . . Hari-śauri: South America Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: South America—all over South America, they came from. Prabhupāda: Ah. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A gigantic turnout of devotees. Very international group. *Bali*-mardana: This could be like Lord Caitanya used to invite all His devotees to come and see Him at Ratha-yātrā . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: Similarly, if you come here, we can invite . . . Prabhupāda: I'll come. *Bali*-mardana: . . . from all the temples. Prabhupāda: I'll come. *Bali*-mardana: Then you do not have to travel so much. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we will make all arrangements. This year is nothing. Next year we will make ten times more arrangements if you come, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: From anywhere, I will come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We will make all arrangements for you. Prabhupāda: Yes. That you do. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This was only a trial. *Bali*-mardana: We have to perfect it now. We have learned that many . . . certain things did not go as perfectly as they could have, so now we are going to repair and make it perfect. Prabhupāda: Now, by this, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is advertised. Apart from all over the world, at least in New York it is that, "There is some movement." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prominent movement. Fifth Avenue. We were in charge of Fifth Avenue for one day. Practically we were controlling the Fifth Avenue today. Hari-śauri: Lord Jagannātha was. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: If that side we get some small house, so that after going, eight days Jagannātha can remain there and festival going on, and then in the next week return . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How small a house? Prabhupāda: Just to keep Jagannātha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, there's your old storefront. Prabhupāda: What? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about your old storefront, 26 Second Avenue? Prabhupāda: That is too small. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Too small. I'll immediately get a house. Prabhupāda: And then you can utilize it for other purposes during the whole year. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we can keep a downtown center. *Bali*-mardana: West Village. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a first*-class place for a center, the West Village. We can make many devotees there. We'll keep a small preaching center, maybe a restaurant, prasādam distribution. *Bali*-mardana: We'll call it the Guṇḍicā center. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Guṇḍicā. We will call it Guṇḍicā. Prabhupāda: Yes, Guṇḍicā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, that's a second restaurant. I think we should have a restaurant there, because a restaurant brings in a lot of people. No Deities. We won't install any Deities, just a preaching center, book distribution . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, book distribution, restaurant, pictures . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, lectures three times a week. Prabhupāda: Records, pictures, yes, like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew! I wish that you could stay here all the time, Prabhupāda, because you could give us so many ideas, and we would simply act on them. If somehow we could convince you to stay here . . . I wish there was a way. There is no way to keep you here. Prabhupāda: No, I have no objection, but the other people . . . (laughter) *Bali*-mardana: Just like the Marwaris say: "Oh, I have no objection, but my brother, he may have objection." Prabhupāda: They . . . nobody has objection. Simply I am thinking that if I stay in one place and do not see the others . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But this is a very central location. Prabhupāda: That I shall consider. *Bali*-mardana: They may come here. We will make . . . we have guest rooms. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can make an airline office by which they'll get a reduced rate, and they can travel here—travel agency—and they can come here very inexpensively to visit you, and we can give full accommodation. If somehow we can keep you here, we will do anything required. *Bali*-mardana: At least for a few months. That is all. Prabhupāda: Which month? *Bali*-mardana: During the summertime. Prabhupāda: July? *Bali*-mardana: July, August. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because now it is the rainy season in India. *Bali*-mardana: Because we do not want to inconvenience you as far as the weather goes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I know now, June, even July, August, September now in India is not so good. October is very good in India. *Bali*-mardana: September is very pleasant in New York. I think you remember. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These months are very nice. Somehow, if there was some way . . . I mean, we would preach so hard. At least sixteen hours a day we could work to serve you. I know I would not want to rest even. There must be some way that we can convince you to stay here. *Bali*-mardana: Because actually when you come here, you are preaching to millions. These reporters that have come, through them you have been preaching to millions. Prabhupāda: What about the reporters? They have published something? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it'll come. *Bali*-mardana: The transcripts have been sent to them, so within the next week they should be coming. *Hari-śauri: I think one or two were waiting until after Ratha*-yātrā, to give a report on the festival as well. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There were a lot of reporters, and they said that next year . . . they told us next year they're going to have full television cameras. We're going to have to erect a news, er . . . what is that called? Press, not a table, but a platform where they're going to put their cameras, and their reporters will sit above the whole crowd. They want to cover it, full. They were very amazed to see such a gigantic festival in New York itself. They never imagined such a thing in New York. Prabhupāda: The Christian cannot organize. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You saw them. The only thing they were carrying was one sign like this. The sign said: "Turn or Burn." It means turn to Jesus or burn. Turn or burn, burn in hell. That's their conception of God. Either God or burn in hell. We could give you a good rest here, also, Prabhupāda, because it's very easy to not . . . if the devotees could see you on Sunday, just like in the old days in Los Angeles . . . I mean everything could be very nicely done, and you could still visit the European centers when you finally return to India. I mean they are not making such a big thing that you couldn't come later on. Oh, boy. Prabhupāda: (laughing) A good canvasser. *Bali*-mardana: They say that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa is very convincing. When he wants to persuade someone, the person must do it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, just it would give . . . there are so many good . . . of course, everywhere there are good devotees, but here there are so many strong preachers that if you stay here on the basis that they had to increase their preaching, we would double and triple our preaching. There's no question. We would throw out all considerations of inconvenience to ourselves and simply preach day and night. *Bali*-mardana: Especially New York, the people are ready for it. Like today, they have taken part very nicely. Even the policemen. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, they're so favorable. Rāmeśvara was commenting. He said he never saw . . . the climate of the people of New York is unique in America. They are very favorable. *Prabhupāda: So where is that man? Where he has gone? 7*-UP can be had anywhere. Hari-śauri: Well, it's Sunday evening. It's a bit difficult. He has to drive around in a car till he finds somewhere. *Bali*-mardana: 7-UP? You want 7-UP? I can get it. Hari-śauri: I sent Śravaṇānanda out to get it. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At the Bloopie's they can get it. Rādhā*-vallabha got it. *Bali*-mardana: Not a can, though, just in a cup. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But how do they get it into the cup? Buy the whole bottle. Prabhupāda: Bottle or . . . bottle or can. *Bali*-mardana: This store has it . . . they have the machine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about Ninth Avenue? There's all those shops. *(whispering in background about 7*-UP) *Bali*-mardana: He already went to get it? Prabhupāda: If the government is going against our movement, then I'll have to stay. There is no alternative. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In India. Prabhupāda: Because in that case I'll be hampered in India. *Bali*-mardana: He'll be what? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hampered. *Bali*-mardana: Yes, now the government has a policy that anyone they do not like, they put him in jail. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In India. *Bali*-mardana: In India. Even that elderly gentleman, Narayan . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prakash Narayan. *Bali*-mardana: . . . put him in jail. He's so old. Prabhupāda: The result is that the Congress Party and Indira Gandhi will never be elected anymore. That is sure. Therefore he's postponing election. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's sure. Prabhupāda: Now they have lost all their credit. They will never be elected. Congress Party and Indira Gandhi finished. (break) *Bali*-mardana: They have lost all respectability. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that your preaching here in New York . . . the thing is the preaching . . . Prabhupāda: More important. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's more important. Prabhupāda: I know that. *Bali*-mardana: In India they pay more attention to the building than to the person. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Bali*-mardana: Our building can go on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know, Prabhupāda, we have never . . . I mean, you started this movement here in New York, but this is the first time that we have a proper facility. Prabhupāda: Yes, in the last ten years there was no facility. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda. That's why if you concentrated here, just by your presence, even if you only spoke to a few important gentlemen . . . we have so many senior men here. We could do wonderful things. Within two or three months we could expand our movement so broadly here in New York, I think the whole country would take note. I really feel that there is a great potential. Prabhupāda: That is right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why I'm not very eager to . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, this is fact. Let me see what Kṛṣṇa desires. The roof is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: For open air. Hari-śauri: It's very good for massage. Prabhupāda: And the view of the river is very healthy. If you can see the river from your house, it is to be understood that quarter is very nice. If you can see sky from your room, then it is to be understood the room is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, all these things are here. Prabhupāda: We can see from the room the river. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise from the roof. So it is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think also that right now there's a lot of devotees here, so it's a little taxing, but once the festival's over, they will all be returning to their respective centers. It will be much calmer. (break) In the night? Prabhupāda: I do not take anything at night. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Morning, you are drinking milk? Is it . . .? Prabhupāda: Very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those cows are unique, that a cow can give her own weight in milk in eleven days. Prabhupāda: They are selling milk also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our farm? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we make fifteen hundred to two thousand dollars a month. Prabhupāda: So if there is more milk, you can sell more, get money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we're getting nearly two thousand dollars a month. *Hari-śauri: (7*-Up arrives) Is there ice? He was supposed to get some ice from the kitchen downstairs. *Bali*-mardana: It's cold. Prabhupāda: Who will open? You open it. *Bali*-mardana: I have just opened it. Is it cold enough? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: We call it, in India, lemonade. Hari-śauri: That was the original name, lemonade. And then all these new things, they changed all the names. *Bali*-mardana: It's good for bringing up gas. Prabhupāda: From my childhood I liked this lemonade. I think it was cost, in our childhood, three paisa . Hari-śauri: Three paisa! *Bali*-mardana: Now I think in India it costs one rupee. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One rupee, twenty paisa . Hari-śauri: For Limka. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, you get forty paisa back for the bottle, but it's between sixty*-five and eighty paisa after you get your money back. When we were travelling in Bhopal, we traveled there in the months of May and June. It was very hot. We were drinking seven bottles a day. Every hour. Every hour. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Lemonade. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gargamuni and I, we had to stop. We'd call it Limka. In India it is called Limka. *Bali*-mardana: When Westerners go to India, it is so hot the water just comes out, you know, sweat, all the time. Become dehydrated. Hari-śauri: Apart from that, you can't drink the water in India, so you have to drink Limka or something. It's safer to drink the lemonade . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: . . . than it is to drink the water. (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . 7*-UP with ice. *Hari-śauri: 7*-UP? We'll have to send someone out for it. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rādhā*-vallabha should go. Prabhupāda: So, so far I was there, it was successful. What was the next? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we were selling prasādam . I think we must have made somewhere between five and ten thousand dollars so far from prasādam sales. That's in addition to the free feast. We served a free feast to five thousand people when I left. Prabhupāda: Oh, you did not stay there? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, still . . . it's so big. I estimated that through three to four hours there were thirty to forty thousand people that went in and out of that park. Prabhupāda: Still they are eating? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're still eating. Every piece of burfī we sold cost one dollar. Prabhupāda: What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just a piece of burfī . . . Prabhupāda: Burfī ? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they were charging one dollar for one square. Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they were paying. Watermelon, for one slice, half a dollar. Prabhupāda: Fifty cents. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty cents. The whole watermelon only cost one dollar. We got about thirty slices out of it. And books . . . Prabhupāda: People, they are simple here. They are not, about money matters, so much anxiety. They have got enough money that they don't care. They want, it is good taste, that's all. And why they did not give prasādam to that boy who was crazy . . . (indistinct) . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He got. I'm sure he must have gotten. Everybody was given free feast. Feast was very good. I tasted it. It was nicely prepared. Prabhupāda: How many preparations were there? *Bali*-mardana: Very hard to estimate. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many preparations in the feast? There was halavā, sabjī , very good sabjī by Ṛṣi Kumāra, rice, sweet, lemonade, popper—six preps. And purī , seven preps. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Very good preps, sumptuous. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes. Besides that, we had booths with watermelon, lassī and burfī . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lassī was selling very big. We could not supply it fast enough. *Bali*-mardana: We could not . . . all the time, those booths, there was a line. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because this was our first year, we were not expecting such a big turnout, so we did not have sufficient stands to meet everybody's needs. Prabhupāda: And the police officer has approved. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the policemen sat down at the end of the park later on. Prabhupāda: You gave them prasādam ? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Why? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm not sure. I didn't deal with them. They were dealt with by Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa. We'll bring them some present tomorrow. But they made the statement that, "If every parade was so beautiful and so nicely orderly, we would be very happy." Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They said it was very orderly. Prabhupāda: And that cannot be expected from any other group, only in this group. Such a huge crowd, and there was not a single instance of violence. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Except that one time. One boy was punched out. *Hari-śauri: (referring to 7*-UP) I sent someone out. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The procession was very well attended. Prabhupāda: Television. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes. ABC, CBS and Channel Five. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All of the GBC men said it was the biggest single festival ever held in ISKCON's history. They all admitted that there was no festival ever held anywhere, even in India, no single festival in India. There was not any one day at any paṇḍāl where there was that many people who took prasādam and who attended such a long procession for two hours. Prabhupāda: I think in the beginning . . . (indistinct) . . . you were there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was there. Yeah, that was pretty big, in 1969. That was gigantic. Prabhupāda: That was also very big. And there was also a crazy man. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's right. We didn't give any invitation cards to our temple here, but we were making announcements. But I think people will come, anyway. They'll find out where our Hare Kṛṣṇa center is. *Bali*-mardana: They were distributing books, magazines. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Books and magazines were given, but we didn't give any free cards. Usually we give free cards, but there was so much . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? They'll come and take. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll come here, anyway. We didn't give any address card. Do you think people will come anyway? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even without getting a card. Prabhupāda: No, this is better, to give a card. Many Indians were standing when I came. *Bali*-mardana: Did you see the Indians? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think at least three thousand Indians attended, minimum. A huge crowd of Indians. But the big thing was not the Indians, it was the American people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a good location for the festival, very important place, Washington Square Park. It's the center. Prabhupāda: Best thing would have been to keep the deities for a week there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That would not have been permitted. They only permitted us legally two hours for everything. That's why we were rushing everything. We only had two hours legally for the whole program. Prabhupāda: Yes, then there is no need. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I heard people say: "We've never seen such a festival, never seen such a parade." I heard these comments. One man said . . . someone said: "What's going on?" and he said: "Oh, they have so many things going on here." They were very appreciative. And actually we could not put our full energy into it this year because we were so busy preparing the building simultaneously. Prabhupāda: And above all, the atmosphere, the weather, was very nice. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes, Kṛṣṇa has blessed us. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) The breeze was there. We did not feel any . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No discomfort. Prabhupāda: . . . fatigue. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And there was nearly four hundred to five hundred devotees there. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will stay in the temple? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they've been staying here. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no difficulty to accommodate them. Prabhupāda: Yes, Nārāyaṇa told me also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know, Prabhupāda, I really feel like I should concentrate a lot of my preaching here in New York. Prabhupāda: Do that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What do you think? You told me . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Preaching is required, here or there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You once said: "A good businessman, if he knows how to do it, he can make more money sitting in one place . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Money is not our aim. Our aim is how people will understand Kṛṣṇa. *Bali*-mardana: He is just using that as an analogy for preaching. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That if you have a good place, many people can be attracted, as many as moving around to many places. Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja was in favor of preaching in the city because you can get many men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But do you think I should travel a lot, or what is the best thing? Prabhupāda: Both things should be done. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Both. So if you . . . we will try to, er . . . we were hoping that you could give us another chance by coming back next year. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I'll come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you do say that to a lot of different temples. But we will try to make this doubly big. Prabhupāda: Normal, so long I live, I must come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we get on Fifth Avenue, you'll come again? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we will double the amount of people, promise. *Bali*-mardana: And double the prasādam . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We will double everything if you are here, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. I can stay here also. I like especially New York, because I started the movement here. And because there are so many branches, if I go they'll become enlivened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, right, just like we are enlivened. Prabhupāda: Everyone wants. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone wants you to come. Prabhupāda: That is natural. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Question of love. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: New York was your second home after India. Prabhupāda: Yes, I say fatherland. India, motherland; this is fatherland. *Bali*-mardana: It is so nice that now in New York they are receiving you so nicely, this parade. Everyone is turning out to greet you. You are like the local boy who made good. So now they are receiving you very grandly. Prabhupāda: Yes, continue this program. People will be appreciative. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking that we could make a point to have many big festivals here each year, not just this one, but many. Prabhupāda: Yes, at least three, four you can do. On Janmāṣṭamī, one; Gaura Pūrṇimā; *for Śrī Rāma*-navamī; *and one, Ratha*-yātrā. *Bali*-mardana: We can do New York for the spring, summer and fall. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: Because the weather is nice. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That coincides. Rāma*-navamī is spring, Ratha-yātrā is summer, and Janmāṣṭamī is fall. Hari-śauri: Gaura Pūrṇimā would be a bit difficult, though. Everybody is in India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's not possible. *Bali*-mardana: We could do that inside. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But those three . . . *Prabhupāda: Janmāṣṭamī, take Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa procession. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On carts? Prabhupāda: No, on siṁhāsana , carried by hand. *Bali*-mardana: Palanquin. Prabhupāda: Palanquin, yes; no, the siṁhāsana as it is. Just like this is siṁhāsana , two big poles down, and tie it with . . . cut it with legs and carry, four men or eight men change. Change the soldiers. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not on carts, not on big chariot. *Prabhupāda: No. Chariot, only Ratha*-yātrā. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll make a big advertisement. We'll call it "Fall Festival." This festival, we called it "Summer Festival." See, people respond to that. If you say Ratha*-yātrā, they can't even pronounce the word. So we call it "Summer Festival," and they came. Hari-śauri: "Summer Festival" sounds very attractive. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone was saying: "Oh, that means for me, Summer Festival." Hari-śauri: "Ecstasy Outdoors." Prabhupāda: And Jayānanda should be congratulated. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. You should give one letter, written. I . . . *Bali*-mardana: The carts looked magnificent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two people worked the hardest, Prabhupāda . . . Jayānanda and all of his assistants, and Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa. He did all of the publicity and advertising. Prabhupāda: They should be congratulated. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These two men, they worked the hardest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They worked for two months in a row, solid. The carts were very good, I think. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very nice, very strong. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Big. Strong. Because you gave him that warning. When he heard that, oh, he became very . . . "I must do it right." We told him, "Now you will have to be replaced. Prabhupāda has said that 'Jayānanda's wheels will never hold up.' So we have to find a replacement for you." (Prabhupāda chuckles) So he took no chances. Prabhupāda: In San Francisco it also happened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seems to me that he must be a great devotee of Lord Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: Same thing happened in London also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? The legs, wheels. Hari-śauri: That's why they gave difficulty, the authorities, because the wheels broke? Prabhupāda: No, that is wrong idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that happened, though. I remember hearing about it. This Jayānanda, it seems, must be a very faithful devotee of Lord Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: Now, where these things will be kept? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our garage. No problem. That's one of the advantages of our garage. It's one block away and it has ten thousand square foot area, so we can store all the carts easily. Hari-śauri: Good storage is very important. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And one block away in Manhattan is very unusual. Prabhupāda: Be careful that termite may not attack. *Bali*-mardana: Termites. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. I'll make a note. *Bali*-mardana: There are not many termites in New York. We are fortunate. In Hawaii there are many termites. But here you don't have to usually protect wood against termites. Here the wintertime kills them, it gets so cold. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very cold. Hari-śauri: That kills them. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There were devotees from Miami, Gainesville, Atlanta, Washington, Baltimore, Boston, Detroit, Toronto, Montreal, Los Angeles, Vancouver . . . Hari-śauri: South America Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: South America—all over South America, they came from. Prabhupāda: Ah. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A gigantic turnout of devotees. Very international group. *Bali*-mardana: This could be like Lord Caitanya used to invite all His devotees to come and see Him at Ratha-yātrā . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: Similarly, if you come here, we can invite . . . Prabhupāda: I'll come. *Bali*-mardana: . . . from all the temples. Prabhupāda: I'll come. *Bali*-mardana: Then you do not have to travel so much. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we will make all arrangements. This year is nothing. Next year we will make ten times more arrangements if you come, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: From anywhere, I will come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We will make all arrangements for you. Prabhupāda: Yes. That you do. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This was only a trial. *Bali*-mardana: We have to perfect it now. We have learned that many . . . certain things did not go as perfectly as they could have, so now we are going to repair and make it perfect. Prabhupāda: Now, by this, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is advertised. Apart from all over the world, at least in New York it is that, "There is some movement." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prominent movement. Fifth Avenue. We were in charge of Fifth Avenue for one day. Practically we were controlling the Fifth Avenue today. Hari-śauri: Lord Jagannātha was. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: If that side we get some small house, so that after going, eight days Jagannātha can remain there and festival going on, and then in the next week return . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How small a house? Prabhupāda: Just to keep Jagannātha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, there's your old storefront. Prabhupāda: What? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about your old storefront, 26 Second Avenue? Prabhupāda: That is too small. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Too small. I'll immediately get a house. Prabhupāda: And then you can utilize it for other purposes during the whole year. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we can keep a downtown center. *Bali*-mardana: West Village. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a first*-class place for a center, the West Village. We can make many devotees there. We'll keep a small preaching center, maybe a restaurant, prasādam distribution. *Bali*-mardana: We'll call it the Guṇḍicā center. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Guṇḍicā. We will call it Guṇḍicā. Prabhupāda: Yes, Guṇḍicā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, that's a second restaurant. I think we should have a restaurant there, because a restaurant brings in a lot of people. No Deities. We won't install any Deities, just a preaching center, book distribution . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, book distribution, restaurant, pictures . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, lectures three times a week. Prabhupāda: Records, pictures, yes, like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew! I wish that you could stay here all the time, Prabhupāda, because you could give us so many ideas, and we would simply act on them. If somehow we could convince you to stay here . . . I wish there was a way. There is no way to keep you here. Prabhupāda: No, I have no objection, but the other people . . . (laughter) *Bali*-mardana: Just like the Marwaris say: "Oh, I have no objection, but my brother, he may have objection." Prabhupāda: They . . . nobody has objection. Simply I am thinking that if I stay in one place and do not see the others . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But this is a very central location. Prabhupāda: That I shall consider. *Bali*-mardana: They may come here. We will make . . . we have guest rooms. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can make an airline office by which they'll get a reduced rate, and they can travel here—travel agency—and they can come here very inexpensively to visit you, and we can give full accommodation. If somehow we can keep you here, we will do anything required. *Bali*-mardana: At least for a few months. That is all. Prabhupāda: Which month? *Bali*-mardana: During the summertime. Prabhupāda: July? *Bali*-mardana: July, August. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because now it is the rainy season in India. *Bali*-mardana: Because we do not want to inconvenience you as far as the weather goes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I know now, June, even July, August, September now in India is not so good. October is very good in India. *Bali*-mardana: September is very pleasant in New York. I think you remember. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These months are very nice. Somehow, if there was some way . . . I mean, we would preach so hard. At least sixteen hours a day we could work to serve you. I know I would not want to rest even. There must be some way that we can convince you to stay here. *Bali*-mardana: Because actually when you come here, you are preaching to millions. These reporters that have come, through them you have been preaching to millions. Prabhupāda: What about the reporters? They have published something? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it'll come. *Bali*-mardana: The transcripts have been sent to them, so within the next week they should be coming. *Hari-śauri: I think one or two were waiting until after Ratha*-yātrā, to give a report on the festival as well. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There were a lot of reporters, and they said that next year . . . they told us next year they're going to have full television cameras. We're going to have to erect a news, er . . . what is that called? Press, not a table, but a platform where they're going to put their cameras, and their reporters will sit above the whole crowd. They want to cover it, full. They were very amazed to see such a gigantic festival in New York itself. They never imagined such a thing in New York. Prabhupāda: The Christian cannot organize. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You saw them. The only thing they were carrying was one sign like this. The sign said: "Turn or Burn." It means turn to Jesus or burn. Turn or burn, burn in hell. That's their conception of God. Either God or burn in hell. We could give you a good rest here, also, Prabhupāda, because it's very easy to not . . . if the devotees could see you on Sunday, just like in the old days in Los Angeles . . . I mean everything could be very nicely done, and you could still visit the European centers when you finally return to India. I mean they are not making such a big thing that you couldn't come later on. Oh, boy. Prabhupāda: (laughing) A good canvasser. *Bali*-mardana: They say that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa is very convincing. When he wants to persuade someone, the person must do it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, just it would give . . . there are so many good . . . of course, everywhere there are good devotees, but here there are so many strong preachers that if you stay here on the basis that they had to increase their preaching, we would double and triple our preaching. There's no question. We would throw out all considerations of inconvenience to ourselves and simply preach day and night. *Bali*-mardana: Especially New York, the people are ready for it. Like today, they have taken part very nicely. Even the policemen. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, they're so favorable. Rāmeśvara was commenting. He said he never saw . . . the climate of the people of New York is unique in America. They are very favorable. *Prabhupāda: So where is that man? Where he has gone? 7*-UP can be had anywhere. Hari-śauri: Well, it's Sunday evening. It's a bit difficult. He has to drive around in a car till he finds somewhere. *Bali*-mardana: 7-UP? You want 7-UP? I can get it. Hari-śauri: I sent Śravaṇānanda out to get it. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At the Bloopie's they can get it. Rādhā*-vallabha got it. *Bali*-mardana: Not a can, though, just in a cup. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But how do they get it into the cup? Buy the whole bottle. Prabhupāda: Bottle or . . . bottle or can. *Bali*-mardana: This store has it . . . they have the machine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about Ninth Avenue? There's all those shops. *(whispering in background about 7*-UP) *Bali*-mardana: He already went to get it? Prabhupāda: If the government is going against our movement, then I'll have to stay. There is no alternative. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In India. Prabhupāda: Because in that case I'll be hampered in India. *Bali*-mardana: He'll be what? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hampered. *Bali*-mardana: Yes, now the government has a policy that anyone they do not like, they put him in jail. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In India. *Bali*-mardana: In India. Even that elderly gentleman, Narayan . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prakash Narayan. *Bali*-mardana: . . . put him in jail. He's so old. Prabhupāda: The result is that the Congress Party and Indira Gandhi will never be elected anymore. That is sure. Therefore he's postponing election. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's sure. Prabhupāda: Now they have lost all their credit. They will never be elected. Congress Party and Indira Gandhi finished. (break) *Bali*-mardana: They have lost all respectability. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that your preaching here in New York . . . the thing is the preaching . . . Prabhupāda: More important. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's more important. Prabhupāda: I know that. *Bali*-mardana: In India they pay more attention to the building than to the person. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Bali*-mardana: Our building can go on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know, Prabhupāda, we have never . . . I mean, you started this movement here in New York, but this is the first time that we have a proper facility. Prabhupāda: Yes, in the last ten years there was no facility. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda. That's why if you concentrated here, just by your presence, even if you only spoke to a few important gentlemen . . . we have so many senior men here. We could do wonderful things. Within two or three months we could expand our movement so broadly here in New York, I think the whole country would take note. I really feel that there is a great potential. Prabhupāda: That is right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why I'm not very eager to . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, this is fact. Let me see what Kṛṣṇa desires. The roof is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: For open air. Hari-śauri: It's very good for massage. Prabhupāda: And the view of the river is very healthy. If you can see the river from your house, it is to be understood that quarter is very nice. If you can see sky from your room, then it is to be understood the room is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, all these things are here. Prabhupāda: We can see from the room the river. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise from the roof. So it is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think also that right now there's a lot of devotees here, so it's a little taxing, but once the festival's over, they will all be returning to their respective centers. It will be much calmer. (break) In the night? Prabhupāda: I do not take anything at night. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Morning, you are drinking milk? Is it . . .? Prabhupāda: Very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those cows are unique, that a cow can give her own weight in milk in eleven days. Prabhupāda: They are selling milk also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our farm? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we make fifteen hundred to two thousand dollars a month. Prabhupāda: So if there is more milk, you can sell more, get money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we're getting nearly two thousand dollars a month. *Hari-śauri: (7*-Up arrives) Is there ice? He was supposed to get some ice from the kitchen downstairs. *Bali*-mardana: It's cold. Prabhupāda: Who will open? You open it. *Bali*-mardana: I have just opened it. Is it cold enough? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: We call it, in India, lemonade. Hari-śauri: That was the original name, lemonade. And then all these new things, they changed all the names. *Bali*-mardana: It's good for bringing up gas. Prabhupāda: From my childhood I liked this lemonade. I think it was cost, in our childhood, three paisa . Hari-śauri: Three paisa! *Bali*-mardana: Now I think in India it costs one rupee. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One rupee, twenty paisa . Hari-śauri: For Limka. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, you get forty paisa back for the bottle, but it's between sixty*-five and eighty paisa after you get your money back. When we were travelling in Bhopal, we traveled there in the months of May and June. It was very hot. We were drinking seven bottles a day. Every hour. Every hour. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Lemonade. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gargamuni and I, we had to stop. We'd call it Limka. In India it is called Limka. *Bali*-mardana: When Westerners go to India, it is so hot the water just comes out, you know, sweat, all the time. Become dehydrated. Hari-śauri: Apart from that, you can't drink the water in India, so you have to drink Limka or something. It's safer to drink the lemonade . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: . . . than it is to drink the water. (end) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We haven't gotten all of the newspapers yet, but we did get some of them. This is the very popular Daily News . What is the circulation of the Daily News ? Few million, isn't it? *Bali*-mardana: Millions. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in the millions. It's the largest in New York. *Bali*-mardana: Largest circulation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they gave us the center section. *Bali*-mardana: That's the big . . . the most popular section. This side. Prabhupāda: Oh. "Fifth Avenue, Where East Meets West." Very good idea. Very good idea. Very nice. The . . . (indistinct) . . . selected. *Bali*-mardana: The other pictures, I think some are from the Olympics. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very prominent. The center section is . . . next to the front page, the center section is very . . . the most popular page in the paper, because it has interesting pictures. Prabhupāda: You can send one, this cutting, to Mr. Bhajaj, "Fifth Avenue, Where East Meets West." Very good. Hari-śauri: Send one to Māyāpur as well? Prabhupāda: Huh? You can send to many place, but this title is very nice. This is the point. This is the point. East, as I say always, the lame man meets the blind man. Together they'll do wonderful. And different they cannot do anything. He is blind; he is lame. But they join together, Indian culture and American money, they will save the whole world. Here is the . . . money required. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to hear what they wrote? Should I read to you what they said? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nicely written. "With everybody pulling together and everybody puffing together, a huge float is tugged down Fifth Avenue yesterday during the first Ratha*-yātrā Parade of International Society for Krishna Consciousness. The parade moved south from Central Park to Washington Square Park, where a free feast, music, art, dance and theater festival was held. According to a spokesperson, 'Ratha-yātrā is a time when people come to dance, sing and feast amidst a sublime atmosphere of bright flags, festoons, banners, garlands, flowers and incense, simply to feel the poetry and blissful nature of life.' " Prabhupāda: Very good. This is blissful nature. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you can see the devotees pulling the float. *Bali*-mardana: Read the caption in the middle. Prabhupāda: And they have created a civilization: wine, woman, gambling and meat. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's what it said: "The multicolored floats contrast with Fifth Avenue's concrete canyon as parade passes Thirty*-fourth Street yesterday." Here it says: "An idyllic mood in saffron robes." Prabhupāda: Everything is approved. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, highly approved. Then there's another, New York Times. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is one very important. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Beautiful photograph. *Bali*-mardana: "East Meets West in Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Feat." *Bali*-mardana: ". . . feat." Hari-śauri: Fete. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fete. Prabhupāda: You must purchase some copies. We shall send to India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at that picture, it's very clear. Should I read you this article? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one is not . . . it's not bad, but it's not so accurate. "In size it was dwarfed by 'Operation Sale.' In popular concern it was outweighed by the Democratic National Convention. But for hundreds of Hare Kṛṣṇa followers, including many Indian immigrants to New York, yesterday's Ratha*-yātrā festival was by far the most important event in an eventful month. Pulling three brightly-colored chariots down Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, the religious group's adherents were celebrating one of the oldest holy days of the Indian calendar, the feast of Jagannātha, the Lord of the Universe, according to Kṛṣṇa doctrine. Most of the participants in the parade were young Westerners, followers from as far away as Caracas and Montreal. But the crowd included hundreds of Indians, who brought the basic Kṛṣṇa faith with them from Bombay and Calcutta." Prabhupāda: That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's nice. "Like many other immigrant groups who preserved their forms of worship once they came to America, the Indians who watched or participated in the parade were pleased to see that they could keep the faith even in New York City." (laughter) Prabhupāda: These rascals, let them come, they become bara sāhīb. *Bali*-mardana: Become what? Prabhupāda: Bara sāhīb. Hari-śauri: Bara sāhīb , big Westerner. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "While Hare Kṛṣṇa propounds doctrines of world renunciation common to other varieties of the Hindu faith, the sect, officially known as the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, was founded in 1965 by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, whose fame as a guru came only after he arrived in the United States in the same year. For most of the Indians watching the parade, however, Hare Kṛṣṇa was close enough to their brand of Hinduism to make them feel at home." Gurudāsa: That's good. It means that we're not a light cult. It means we have a great tradition. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's actually good. Gurudāsa: They're recognizing that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: " 'It's surprising that you find this right in New York City. It's our way of life,' said Nagan Patel, a civil engineer from Jersey City, who emmigrated from Bombay. 'We love New York City and America. It's the most beautiful place in the world. No other country will give such freedom for our own ceremony.' " Prabhupāda: That's a fact. That I say always. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "But the Kṛṣṇa people were not entirely free of harassment. Along the parade route three men, including one who said he was an Evangelical Christian minister, jeered at the parade and called on parade watchers to become Christians. 'Idol worship. This is absolutely ridiculous. Read the Bible,' cried one man, who would identify himself only as a normal Christian. There was a brief scuffle when an Indian immigrant tried to tear a large placard out of the hands of another heckler. The placard read 'Turn or Burn.' The police broke things up but made no arrests. 'They are insulting us,' said the Kṛṣṇa follower who declined to identify himself. 'I'm a devotee of Kṛṣṇa and Christ. These people who are doing this in the name of Christ are criminals.' " Very strong statement. "Except for the hecklers, however, the parade was generally very well received by passersby, who enjoyed the three multi*-hued floats, the sun, and the chanting and dancing of the young Kṛṣṇa marchers. 'I think it's great,' said Tyrone Adams of Philadelphia, who was paying a visit to his home town of Englewood, New Jersey. 'I'm not religious, but they're all happy and dancing, and that is what life is all about.' " Even a nonreligious person said that. "In Washington Square a crowd of about three thousand, many of whom were there as part of the normal Sunday afternoon activities, heard Swami Prabhupāda deliver a lecture. Later, the crowd was served a free vegetarian feast. Along the side, Kṛṣṇa followers sold Indian sweets, Kṛṣṇa scriptures, and what one speaker described as 'transcendental paraphernalia.' " Prabhupāda: Very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's a good article. For the Times especially it's good, because they are very conservative. Prabhupāda: The Times first published about my activities from Tompkinson Square. They first published. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now over the television last night there was gigantic coverage. CBS, which is the most important station, gave two and a half minutes' coverage. *Bali*-mardana: Wow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have very big program, and the reporters—Dhṛṣṭadyumna was watching—he said that the reporters through the whole news, they were very grim, and then they, because they read what they're saying, and suddenly their faces lit up, and they said: "And Hare Kṛṣṇa had a parade today!" And then they described the whole parade. And they loved it. They said it was very well received. CBS reported, ABC reported, NBC reported, Channel Five gave big coverage—all the television networks gave a big coverage. It was very well publicized, with a lot of coverage and photos. They were showing movies of the parade, of you lecturing, of the crowds that were gathered taking prasādam . Prabhupāda: Somebody should send this clippings, not our men, to . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To your Godbrothers. Prabhupāda: To Indira Gandhi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some Indian people. Prabhupāda: She is little anxious to cooperate with Americans, because the most criticism for his (her) present act . . . and everyone will criticize. The Americans have criticized like anything. And they are thinking that the American people are capturing that . . . actually, the nation is under danger. (break) (end) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We haven't gotten all of the newspapers yet, but we did get some of them. This is the very popular Daily News . What is the circulation of the Daily News ? Few million, isn't it? *Bali*-mardana: Millions. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in the millions. It's the largest in New York. *Bali*-mardana: Largest circulation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they gave us the center section. *Bali*-mardana: That's the big . . . the most popular section. This side. Prabhupāda: Oh. "Fifth Avenue, Where East Meets West." Very good idea. Very good idea. Very nice. The . . . (indistinct) . . . selected. *Bali*-mardana: The other pictures, I think some are from the Olympics. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very prominent. The center section is . . . next to the front page, the center section is very . . . the most popular page in the paper, because it has interesting pictures. Prabhupāda: You can send one, this cutting, to Mr. Bhajaj, "Fifth Avenue, Where East Meets West." Very good. Hari-śauri: Send one to Māyāpur as well? Prabhupāda: Huh? You can send to many place, but this title is very nice. This is the point. This is the point. East, as I say always, the lame man meets the blind man. Together they'll do wonderful. And different they cannot do anything. He is blind; he is lame. But they join together, Indian culture and American money, they will save the whole world. Here is the . . . money required. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to hear what they wrote? Should I read to you what they said? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nicely written. "With everybody pulling together and everybody puffing together, a huge float is tugged down Fifth Avenue yesterday during the first Ratha*-yātrā Parade of International Society for Krishna Consciousness. The parade moved south from Central Park to Washington Square Park, where a free feast, music, art, dance and theater festival was held. According to a spokesperson, 'Ratha-yātrā is a time when people come to dance, sing and feast amidst a sublime atmosphere of bright flags, festoons, banners, garlands, flowers and incense, simply to feel the poetry and blissful nature of life.' " Prabhupāda: Very good. This is blissful nature. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you can see the devotees pulling the float. *Bali*-mardana: Read the caption in the middle. Prabhupāda: And they have created a civilization: wine, woman, gambling and meat. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's what it said: "The multicolored floats contrast with Fifth Avenue's concrete canyon as parade passes Thirty*-fourth Street yesterday." Here it says: "An idyllic mood in saffron robes." Prabhupāda: Everything is approved. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, highly approved. Then there's another, New York Times. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is one very important. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Beautiful photograph. *Bali*-mardana: "East Meets West in Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Feat." *Bali*-mardana: ". . . feat." Hari-śauri: Fete. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fete. Prabhupāda: You must purchase some copies. We shall send to India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at that picture, it's very clear. Should I read you this article? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one is not . . . it's not bad, but it's not so accurate. "In size it was dwarfed by 'Operation Sale.' In popular concern it was outweighed by the Democratic National Convention. But for hundreds of Hare Kṛṣṇa followers, including many Indian immigrants to New York, yesterday's Ratha*-yātrā festival was by far the most important event in an eventful month. Pulling three brightly-colored chariots down Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, the religious group's adherents were celebrating one of the oldest holy days of the Indian calendar, the feast of Jagannātha, the Lord of the Universe, according to Kṛṣṇa doctrine. Most of the participants in the parade were young Westerners, followers from as far away as Caracas and Montreal. But the crowd included hundreds of Indians, who brought the basic Kṛṣṇa faith with them from Bombay and Calcutta." Prabhupāda: That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's nice. "Like many other immigrant groups who preserved their forms of worship once they came to America, the Indians who watched or participated in the parade were pleased to see that they could keep the faith even in New York City." (laughter) Prabhupāda: These rascals, let them come, they become bara sāhīb. *Bali*-mardana: Become what? Prabhupāda: Bara sāhīb. Hari-śauri: Bara sāhīb , big Westerner. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "While Hare Kṛṣṇa propounds doctrines of world renunciation common to other varieties of the Hindu faith, the sect, officially known as the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, was founded in 1965 by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, whose fame as a guru came only after he arrived in the United States in the same year. For most of the Indians watching the parade, however, Hare Kṛṣṇa was close enough to their brand of Hinduism to make them feel at home." Gurudāsa: That's good. It means that we're not a light cult. It means we have a great tradition. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's actually good. Gurudāsa: They're recognizing that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: " 'It's surprising that you find this right in New York City. It's our way of life,' said Nagan Patel, a civil engineer from Jersey City, who emmigrated from Bombay. 'We love New York City and America. It's the most beautiful place in the world. No other country will give such freedom for our own ceremony.' " Prabhupāda: That's a fact. That I say always. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "But the Kṛṣṇa people were not entirely free of harassment. Along the parade route three men, including one who said he was an Evangelical Christian minister, jeered at the parade and called on parade watchers to become Christians. 'Idol worship. This is absolutely ridiculous. Read the Bible,' cried one man, who would identify himself only as a normal Christian. There was a brief scuffle when an Indian immigrant tried to tear a large placard out of the hands of another heckler. The placard read 'Turn or Burn.' The police broke things up but made no arrests. 'They are insulting us,' said the Kṛṣṇa follower who declined to identify himself. 'I'm a devotee of Kṛṣṇa and Christ. These people who are doing this in the name of Christ are criminals.' " Very strong statement. "Except for the hecklers, however, the parade was generally very well received by passersby, who enjoyed the three multi*-hued floats, the sun, and the chanting and dancing of the young Kṛṣṇa marchers. 'I think it's great,' said Tyrone Adams of Philadelphia, who was paying a visit to his home town of Englewood, New Jersey. 'I'm not religious, but they're all happy and dancing, and that is what life is all about.' " Even a nonreligious person said that. "In Washington Square a crowd of about three thousand, many of whom were there as part of the normal Sunday afternoon activities, heard Swami Prabhupāda deliver a lecture. Later, the crowd was served a free vegetarian feast. Along the side, Kṛṣṇa followers sold Indian sweets, Kṛṣṇa scriptures, and what one speaker described as 'transcendental paraphernalia.' " Prabhupāda: Very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's a good article. For the Times especially it's good, because they are very conservative. Prabhupāda: The Times first published about my activities from Tompkinson Square. They first published. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now over the television last night there was gigantic coverage. CBS, which is the most important station, gave two and a half minutes' coverage. *Bali*-mardana: Wow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have very big program, and the reporters—Dhṛṣṭadyumna was watching—he said that the reporters through the whole news, they were very grim, and then they, because they read what they're saying, and suddenly their faces lit up, and they said: "And Hare Kṛṣṇa had a parade today!" And then they described the whole parade. And they loved it. They said it was very well received. CBS reported, ABC reported, NBC reported, Channel Five gave big coverage—all the television networks gave a big coverage. It was very well publicized, with a lot of coverage and photos. They were showing movies of the parade, of you lecturing, of the crowds that were gathered taking prasādam . Prabhupāda: Somebody should send this clippings, not our men, to . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To your Godbrothers. Prabhupāda: To Indira Gandhi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some Indian people. Prabhupāda: She is little anxious to cooperate with Americans, because the most criticism for his (her) present act . . . and everyone will criticize. The Americans have criticized like anything. And they are thinking that the American people are capturing that . . . actually, the nation is under danger. (break) (end) (in car) Prabhupāda: Appreciating. Rāmeśvara: They have so many different groups, religious groups and minority groups from other parts of the world, they call it a melting pot. So they accept us because they've accepted so many others, the Puerto Ricans, the blacks, so similarly they are accepting us. Prabhupāda: Who? Rāmeśvara: This city, the people of this city. Prabhupāda: America. Rāmeśvara: New York. Prabhupāda: New York. Rāmeśvara: In other places they consider us to be very foreign, alien. But here there are so many foreigners, so it fits right in. Prabhupāda: This is the Tenth Street? No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Amsterdam Avenue. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ninth Avenue turns into Amsterdam Avenue. *Rāmeśvara: Next year at the Ratha*-yātrā they are planning to have a press box, so that the newspapermen and the television cameras can come and film the activities on stage also. They can film your lecture, they can film the play. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're also thinking to have a press box along the parade route, so that they can stay in an elevated position and take photos. We collected a total of about seven thousand dollars, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: And what you spent? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spent ten thousand. But we also collected another fifteen thousand in advertisements. So total collection was about twenty, over twenty thousand, and expenditure was under ten. Prabhupāda: Good business. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And that was the first year. Rāmeśvara: (chants japa ) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next year we will collect sixty to seventy thousand dollars . . . Devotee: Whew! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . easily, I'm sure, with advertisements. Prabhupāda: So where the profit is going? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is the profit? Into distributing more books. Prabhupāda: That's nice, very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is our only business. (break) . . . completely cleansed all of the grounds throughout the night, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last night all night long we were cleaning up the grounds. Rāmeśvara: At the park. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At the park. One woman who lives next to the park said: "In all my years of living here I've never seen such a wonderful festival held." Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And one . . . the official of the park, who's in charge of the park, was on CBS television, and he said that, "You see? Spiritual life is still present in Washington Square Park." He made that comment. He said: "We are very proud to be able to say that in our . . . this park was founded hundreds of years ago, when America was religious." And he said, "Spiritual life is still present in Washington Square Park." Prabhupāda: So why not ask the mayor to construct a temple there? (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think they'd agree. Prabhupāda: People will come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe, but, ah, I don't think they will agree to that. They're not that spiritual. Rāmeśvara: No, in America you have to raise your own money for temples. You cannot get the city to build it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you can't get their land either, not for a building like that. You can put up a hospital maybe. Thing is, park space is so short in that area of the city that they . . . I don't think they'd give it up for a building. Prabhupāda told us yesterday that we should rent a small building downtown in that area and call it Guṇḍicā, so that Lord Jagannātha will stay down there. Prabhupāda: For one week. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For one week. And we'll keep a restaurant there. Prabhupāda: And then they'll again come in procession. Rāmeśvara: Wow! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, two festivals. Gurudāsa: I was told that there was another procession last night bringing the car back, and all the night persons—there's a different whole segment of the city, people who come at night . . . Devotee: Bums. Gurudāsa: . . . who stay up all night. And they were there, hundreds of people following the car back in the nighttime. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It took about seven hours to bring the carts back. All night they worked. Jayānanda was slaving out there, and Ādi*-keśa Swami. Ādi-keśa finally got back at five in the morning, collapsed on the carts. He was exhausted. Prabhupāda: They should be given some recommendations in writing. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Give Ādi*-keśa a recommendation. This will be gigantic, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'll tell you one thing, that the first way we go, next year when we go one way, it will get huge publicity, and that will be the publicity for the going return trip. Because it will be so publicized, even more people will come on the return ride. Rāmeśvara: On the return you simply go to the temple and drop the Deities off? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We'll go to Fifty*-ninth Street and have another feast at the park. Rāmeśvara: Yes, there has to be another feast. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll have the feast. We may have buses, we'll have all our buses, and we'll bus the people to the temple. We could rent buses, Rāmeśvara. *Prabhupāda: Return Ratha*-yātrā. Ulṭā-ratha . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is it called? *Prabhupāda: Ulṭā*-ratha . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ulṭā*-ratha. Rāmeśvara: Should the actors perform the Herā Pañcamī ceremony? Prabhupāda: That is in the middle. Rāmeśvara: In the middle. Prabhupāda: Do that. Rāmeśvara: So they can do that? (break) . . . pañcamī , where they carry the goddess of fortune on an opulent palanquin. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, New York doesn't have a name. We have to give it some name. We call Los Angeles as New Dvārakā. Here it's just New York. (break) *Rāmeśvara: (whispering) . . . Rādhā*-vallabha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh? *Rāmeśvara: Rādhā*-vallabha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . monkey. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Rāmeśvara: Rādhā*-vallabha is your faithful servant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Guarding you. (break) (walking) Ghanaśyāma: We were talking about the pictures, the paintings in the books. We were mentioning how professors liked the paintings and how sometimes they actually buy the books because of the nice paintings. Sometimes when we go back to see a professor or librarian a year later, we'll notice that they'll have a catalogue up on the bulletin board. Sometimes they'll take the cover of the jacket of the book and they'll put it on display. And now we're getting recognized when we go to some of the colleges. They say: "Oh, you're the man with the nice colorful books. We've seen your catalogue, we got one in the mail. We've seen your books, and they're very attractive books." And our men are getting known now that because we've been to most of the schools in America once, and they say: "You're the men who don't leave until your books are in the library." Even if the school is closed, our men, now, they'll go to the professor's home and they'll get him out of bed to come to see the librarian or to write a notice or to call the librarian. So even if the school is closed, the books are still being placed, and when the students come the books are in the library. (break) (in car) Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Is that what you want? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa Mahārāja can speak very nice. Satsvarūpa: The speaking starts in the fall, especially. That's when we could work together. Prabhupāda: No, in our temple. Satsvarūpa: In the temples also. Gurudāsa: Should I not go to the London zone at this time? I've been invited. They say they need a sannyāsī in that zone, for years, so I've been invited. Do you think I should go now with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja, or go to London? Prabhupāda: That you decide among, among all of you. Gurudāsa: All right. Very good. (break) *Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ ( SB 5.18.12). As soon as one becomes devotee, all the good qualification immediately manifest. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct background comments) . . . all these people hanging out and making noise. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (in car) Prabhupāda: Appreciating. Rāmeśvara: They have so many different groups, religious groups and minority groups from other parts of the world, they call it a melting pot. So they accept us because they've accepted so many others, the Puerto Ricans, the blacks, so similarly they are accepting us. Prabhupāda: Who? Rāmeśvara: This city, the people of this city. Prabhupāda: America. Rāmeśvara: New York. Prabhupāda: New York. Rāmeśvara: In other places they consider us to be very foreign, alien. But here there are so many foreigners, so it fits right in. Prabhupāda: This is the Tenth Street? No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Amsterdam Avenue. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ninth Avenue turns into Amsterdam Avenue. *Rāmeśvara: Next year at the Ratha*-yātrā they are planning to have a press box, so that the newspapermen and the television cameras can come and film the activities on stage also. They can film your lecture, they can film the play. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're also thinking to have a press box along the parade route, so that they can stay in an elevated position and take photos. We collected a total of about seven thousand dollars, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: And what you spent? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spent ten thousand. But we also collected another fifteen thousand in advertisements. So total collection was about twenty, over twenty thousand, and expenditure was under ten. Prabhupāda: Good business. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And that was the first year. Rāmeśvara: (chants japa ) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next year we will collect sixty to seventy thousand dollars . . . Devotee: Whew! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . easily, I'm sure, with advertisements. Prabhupāda: So where the profit is going? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is the profit? Into distributing more books. Prabhupāda: That's nice, very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is our only business. (break) . . . completely cleansed all of the grounds throughout the night, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last night all night long we were cleaning up the grounds. Rāmeśvara: At the park. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At the park. One woman who lives next to the park said: "In all my years of living here I've never seen such a wonderful festival held." Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And one . . . the official of the park, who's in charge of the park, was on CBS television, and he said that, "You see? Spiritual life is still present in Washington Square Park." He made that comment. He said: "We are very proud to be able to say that in our . . . this park was founded hundreds of years ago, when America was religious." And he said, "Spiritual life is still present in Washington Square Park." Prabhupāda: So why not ask the mayor to construct a temple there? (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think they'd agree. Prabhupāda: People will come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe, but, ah, I don't think they will agree to that. They're not that spiritual. Rāmeśvara: No, in America you have to raise your own money for temples. You cannot get the city to build it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you can't get their land either, not for a building like that. You can put up a hospital maybe. Thing is, park space is so short in that area of the city that they . . . I don't think they'd give it up for a building. Prabhupāda told us yesterday that we should rent a small building downtown in that area and call it Guṇḍicā, so that Lord Jagannātha will stay down there. Prabhupāda: For one week. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For one week. And we'll keep a restaurant there. Prabhupāda: And then they'll again come in procession. Rāmeśvara: Wow! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, two festivals. Gurudāsa: I was told that there was another procession last night bringing the car back, and all the night persons—there's a different whole segment of the city, people who come at night . . . Devotee: Bums. Gurudāsa: . . . who stay up all night. And they were there, hundreds of people following the car back in the nighttime. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It took about seven hours to bring the carts back. All night they worked. Jayānanda was slaving out there, and Ādi*-keśa Swami. Ādi-keśa finally got back at five in the morning, collapsed on the carts. He was exhausted. Prabhupāda: They should be given some recommendations in writing. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Give Ādi*-keśa a recommendation. This will be gigantic, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'll tell you one thing, that the first way we go, next year when we go one way, it will get huge publicity, and that will be the publicity for the going return trip. Because it will be so publicized, even more people will come on the return ride. Rāmeśvara: On the return you simply go to the temple and drop the Deities off? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We'll go to Fifty*-ninth Street and have another feast at the park. Rāmeśvara: Yes, there has to be another feast. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll have the feast. We may have buses, we'll have all our buses, and we'll bus the people to the temple. We could rent buses, Rāmeśvara. *Prabhupāda: Return Ratha*-yātrā. Ulṭā-ratha . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is it called? *Prabhupāda: Ulṭā*-ratha . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ulṭā*-ratha. Rāmeśvara: Should the actors perform the Herā Pañcamī ceremony? Prabhupāda: That is in the middle. Rāmeśvara: In the middle. Prabhupāda: Do that. Rāmeśvara: So they can do that? (break) . . . pañcamī , where they carry the goddess of fortune on an opulent palanquin. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, New York doesn't have a name. We have to give it some name. We call Los Angeles as New Dvārakā. Here it's just New York. (break) *Rāmeśvara: (whispering) . . . Rādhā*-vallabha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh? *Rāmeśvara: Rādhā*-vallabha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . monkey. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Rāmeśvara: Rādhā*-vallabha is your faithful servant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Guarding you. (break) (walking) Ghanaśyāma: We were talking about the pictures, the paintings in the books. We were mentioning how professors liked the paintings and how sometimes they actually buy the books because of the nice paintings. Sometimes when we go back to see a professor or librarian a year later, we'll notice that they'll have a catalogue up on the bulletin board. Sometimes they'll take the cover of the jacket of the book and they'll put it on display. And now we're getting recognized when we go to some of the colleges. They say: "Oh, you're the man with the nice colorful books. We've seen your catalogue, we got one in the mail. We've seen your books, and they're very attractive books." And our men are getting known now that because we've been to most of the schools in America once, and they say: "You're the men who don't leave until your books are in the library." Even if the school is closed, our men, now, they'll go to the professor's home and they'll get him out of bed to come to see the librarian or to write a notice or to call the librarian. So even if the school is closed, the books are still being placed, and when the students come the books are in the library. (break) (in car) Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Is that what you want? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa Mahārāja can speak very nice. Satsvarūpa: The speaking starts in the fall, especially. That's when we could work together. Prabhupāda: No, in our temple. Satsvarūpa: In the temples also. Gurudāsa: Should I not go to the London zone at this time? I've been invited. They say they need a sannyāsī in that zone, for years, so I've been invited. Do you think I should go now with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja, or go to London? Prabhupāda: That you decide among, among all of you. Gurudāsa: All right. Very good. (break) *Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ ( SB 5.18.12). As soon as one becomes devotee, all the good qualification immediately manifest. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct background comments) . . . all these people hanging out and making noise. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (in car) *Rāmeśvara: And I've been told that all the TV stations showed our Ratha*-yātrā. That means millions of people saw the ratha cart. And everyone has seen it in the newspapers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: That Newsday also had coverage. We didn't get that paper for Prabhupāda, but they also . . . this is even before their article, interview. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. What about Newsweek and . . .? Rāmeśvara: When those interviews that those reporters took are published, we'll send them to you immediately. (aside) Newsday , Associated Press and Newsweek . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . higher to temple. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not exactly. We'll go, probably, over the Fifty*-ninth Street bridge, right? *Ādi*-keśava: I think it would be better now to go through the tunnel. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tunnel? *Ādi*-keśava: Little easier ride. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're going over the tunnel, into the tunnel. What street is that? Fifty . . .? *Ādi*-keśava: About Thirtieth Street. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You think that's faster? *Ādi*-keśava: Yes, it goes right under . . . (indistinct discussion about route) (break) Rāmeśvara: . . . people of New York are appreciating, Prabhupāda, how you came here alone and now you have a big building with many followers. Actually the people are aware, very much aware of how you started this movement in New York. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And were struggling personally. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . life there is struggle. Without struggling there is no . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not be . . . try to avoid struggle. Prabhupāda: No. Because we have got preaching point of view. Preaching means struggling. If it was simply bhajana , you can sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "There's one credit that I have. I was never a lazy fellow." Prabhupāda: Yes, throughout my life. (end) (in car) *Rāmeśvara: And I've been told that all the TV stations showed our Ratha*-yātrā. That means millions of people saw the ratha cart. And everyone has seen it in the newspapers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: That Newsday also had coverage. We didn't get that paper for Prabhupāda, but they also . . . this is even before their article, interview. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. What about Newsweek and . . .? Rāmeśvara: When those interviews that those reporters took are published, we'll send them to you immediately. (aside) Newsday , Associated Press and Newsweek . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . higher to temple. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not exactly. We'll go, probably, over the Fifty*-ninth Street bridge, right? *Ādi*-keśava: I think it would be better now to go through the tunnel. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tunnel? *Ādi*-keśava: Little easier ride. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're going over the tunnel, into the tunnel. What street is that? Fifty . . .? *Ādi*-keśava: About Thirtieth Street. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You think that's faster? *Ādi*-keśava: Yes, it goes right under . . . (indistinct discussion about route) (break) Rāmeśvara: . . . people of New York are appreciating, Prabhupāda, how you came here alone and now you have a big building with many followers. Actually the people are aware, very much aware of how you started this movement in New York. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And were struggling personally. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . life there is struggle. Without struggling there is no . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not be . . . try to avoid struggle. Prabhupāda: No. Because we have got preaching point of view. Preaching means struggling. If it was simply bhajana , you can sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "There's one credit that I have. I was never a lazy fellow." Prabhupāda: Yes, throughout my life. (end) (Interview with religion editor of The Observer) Prabhupāda: I think I saw you before? No. Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Colin Cross, who is the religious correspondent for The Observer . This is His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. And this is Tony McGraw, who is a photographer. Jayatīrtha: The Observer is one of the most respected newspapers. Prabhupāda: You can give chair. Colin Cross: No, I'll sit on the floor. Jayatīrtha: You sure you're comfortable this way? We can have them bring a chair. There's no problem. Colin Cross: Yes, I can . . . no, a chair would give the wrong atmosphere. Prabhupāda: So you are observing our movement? Colin Cross: Yes, really for the first time at close quarters. Prabhupāda: First time? We are here for the last seven years. Colin Cross: Yes, I know a little about you, but it's only in the last hour that I've really begun to learn. Jayatīrtha: We showed him the movie. Prabhupāda: Your paper is Observer . Why did you not observe for the last seven years? (laughter) Mukunda: We just showed him our film. Prabhupāda: How did you like? Colin Cross: Oh, it was very interesting. Again, it taught me a lot that I did not previously know. Prabhupāda: We are trying to give real life. The present civilization is . . . (to someone else) Hare Kṛṣṇa. How are you? (converses in Hindi) You are religious observer. What is your idea of religion? Colin Cross: I would say much the same as yours, from what I've seen in your writings—that there's an underlying truth behind all religion. Would you agree with that? Prabhupāda: Religion, as it is explained in the dictionary, "Accepting a supreme controller." Is it not? Colin Cross: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So do the people accept a supreme controller? Do they accept? There are so many system of religions, but do they actually know who is the supreme controller? That is my question. What do you think? Just like this is British government, and we know that the Queen is the supreme controller. Similarly, of all creation, cosmic manifestation, there is a supreme controller. And who is that supreme controller? Do they know it? That is my question. Colin Cross: I mean, what is your attitude towards Christianity? Prabhupāda: Don't come to Christianity. I'm talking on religion, the science of religion. The religion . . . when we speak of religion, there is no question of Christianity or Muslim or Hindu. Just like when they speak of gold, gold is gold everywhere. Gold cannot be Muslim gold or Hindu gold or Christian gold. First try . . . we are concerned with gold, not the country where the gold is produced. That is not very important thing. Whether it is gold, that is our business. Colin Cross: I mean, would you count Jesus Christ as gold? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? He's speaking about the supreme controller, God, so why should we not? Anyone who is speaking about God . . . (break) Colin Cross: You don't accept it as mere sentiment. Prabhupāda: No. Religion without science or philosophy is sentiment. And philosophy without religion is mental speculation. So they must be combined together. So far the controller is concerned, this is scientific understanding. Just like the father . . . we consider . . . why we? Everyone. Either he is Christian or Muhammadan or Hindu, the conception of God is generally accepted as the supreme father. Colin Cross: I mean, it is a fact. Prabhupāda: It is fact. Colin Cross: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because, just like anything, creation means the mother, the father and the children. That is our practical experience. Without mother, we are nowhere. We are given birth by the mother. So the material nature is the mother. From the material nature, material elements, everything is coming. From the water the fishes are coming, from the land the grass, the worms, and then human being, they are coming. From the air also living entities are coming. So therefore material nature is the mother, and we have come out of the material nature, therefore we are children. Then there must be father, because without father, simply mother cannot give birth. This is science. You cannot deny the existence of God simply by a false argument. This is real argument. The mother is there, material nature, and we are children there. There must be father. Colin Cross: In England, the Christian Church in recent years or recent decades has been doing very badly and losing support. Your teaching could perhaps provide a substitute for the more traditional type of Christian teaching. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is science. Therefore I say religion without scientific idea, that is sentiment. It has no value. This is basic principle of religion, that the mother is there, the children are there—there must be father. If you say: "I do not see what is God," it doesn't matter. Sometimes the child after birth does not see his father. But that does not mean that he has no father, because without father there is no possibility of his existence. Colin Cross: What impelled you personally, when you, at a fairly late stage in life, to come to the West and teach? *Prabhupāda: I must be prepared to teach. Teaching is not so easy thing. I was ordered to teach at the age of twenty*-five years by my Guru Mahārāja. But I was finding out the opportunity how to take up the work. So it took me so many years, so that at seventy years I came out for teaching. Colin Cross: Why particularly in the West? Prabhupāda: Because my Guru Mahārāja ordered that, "You go and teach this gospel in the Western world." Jayatīrtha: His teacher instructed him to do this. Colin Cross: Yes. And are you surprised at the great success you've had? Prabhupāda: That is my Guru Mahārāja's blessings. He ordered me, I tried my best, so there is little success. When I see so many boys and hundreds of centers, they are living very peacefully in a nice house, getting good prasādam , having good knowledge in the books, and reforming their character and getting some good home, that is my success. Otherwise, they are loitering—no home, no character, no peace of mind. So at least this is my success. I have given so many boys a life. That is my success. Colin Cross: Well, I'm very honored to have met you. I've read some of your work. I intend to read more. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are trying to give the best service to the humanity, human society, and this is the only service. People should come forward and cooperate with us. It is not a sectarian, sentimental religious system. It is a scientific understanding of the value of life. Colin Cross: Well, thank you very much indeed, sir. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (end) (Interview with religion editor of The Observer) Prabhupāda: I think I saw you before? No. Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Colin Cross, who is the religious correspondent for The Observer . This is His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. And this is Tony McGraw, who is a photographer. Jayatīrtha: The Observer is one of the most respected newspapers. Prabhupāda: You can give chair. Colin Cross: No, I'll sit on the floor. Jayatīrtha: You sure you're comfortable this way? We can have them bring a chair. There's no problem. Colin Cross: Yes, I can . . . no, a chair would give the wrong atmosphere. Prabhupāda: So you are observing our movement? Colin Cross: Yes, really for the first time at close quarters. Prabhupāda: First time? We are here for the last seven years. Colin Cross: Yes, I know a little about you, but it's only in the last hour that I've really begun to learn. Jayatīrtha: We showed him the movie. Prabhupāda: Your paper is Observer . Why did you not observe for the last seven years? (laughter) Mukunda: We just showed him our film. Prabhupāda: How did you like? Colin Cross: Oh, it was very interesting. Again, it taught me a lot that I did not previously know. Prabhupāda: We are trying to give real life. The present civilization is . . . (to someone else) Hare Kṛṣṇa. How are you? (converses in Hindi) You are religious observer. What is your idea of religion? Colin Cross: I would say much the same as yours, from what I've seen in your writings—that there's an underlying truth behind all religion. Would you agree with that? Prabhupāda: Religion, as it is explained in the dictionary, "Accepting a supreme controller." Is it not? Colin Cross: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So do the people accept a supreme controller? Do they accept? There are so many system of religions, but do they actually know who is the supreme controller? That is my question. What do you think? Just like this is British government, and we know that the Queen is the supreme controller. Similarly, of all creation, cosmic manifestation, there is a supreme controller. And who is that supreme controller? Do they know it? That is my question. Colin Cross: I mean, what is your attitude towards Christianity? Prabhupāda: Don't come to Christianity. I'm talking on religion, the science of religion. The religion . . . when we speak of religion, there is no question of Christianity or Muslim or Hindu. Just like when they speak of gold, gold is gold everywhere. Gold cannot be Muslim gold or Hindu gold or Christian gold. First try . . . we are concerned with gold, not the country where the gold is produced. That is not very important thing. Whether it is gold, that is our business. Colin Cross: I mean, would you count Jesus Christ as gold? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? He's speaking about the supreme controller, God, so why should we not? Anyone who is speaking about God . . . (break) Colin Cross: You don't accept it as mere sentiment. Prabhupāda: No. Religion without science or philosophy is sentiment. And philosophy without religion is mental speculation. So they must be combined together. So far the controller is concerned, this is scientific understanding. Just like the father . . . we consider . . . why we? Everyone. Either he is Christian or Muhammadan or Hindu, the conception of God is generally accepted as the supreme father. Colin Cross: I mean, it is a fact. Prabhupāda: It is fact. Colin Cross: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because, just like anything, creation means the mother, the father and the children. That is our practical experience. Without mother, we are nowhere. We are given birth by the mother. So the material nature is the mother. From the material nature, material elements, everything is coming. From the water the fishes are coming, from the land the grass, the worms, and then human being, they are coming. From the air also living entities are coming. So therefore material nature is the mother, and we have come out of the material nature, therefore we are children. Then there must be father, because without father, simply mother cannot give birth. This is science. You cannot deny the existence of God simply by a false argument. This is real argument. The mother is there, material nature, and we are children there. There must be father. Colin Cross: In England, the Christian Church in recent years or recent decades has been doing very badly and losing support. Your teaching could perhaps provide a substitute for the more traditional type of Christian teaching. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is science. Therefore I say religion without scientific idea, that is sentiment. It has no value. This is basic principle of religion, that the mother is there, the children are there—there must be father. If you say: "I do not see what is God," it doesn't matter. Sometimes the child after birth does not see his father. But that does not mean that he has no father, because without father there is no possibility of his existence. Colin Cross: What impelled you personally, when you, at a fairly late stage in life, to come to the West and teach? *Prabhupāda: I must be prepared to teach. Teaching is not so easy thing. I was ordered to teach at the age of twenty*-five years by my Guru Mahārāja. But I was finding out the opportunity how to take up the work. So it took me so many years, so that at seventy years I came out for teaching. Colin Cross: Why particularly in the West? Prabhupāda: Because my Guru Mahārāja ordered that, "You go and teach this gospel in the Western world." Jayatīrtha: His teacher instructed him to do this. Colin Cross: Yes. And are you surprised at the great success you've had? Prabhupāda: That is my Guru Mahārāja's blessings. He ordered me, I tried my best, so there is little success. When I see so many boys and hundreds of centers, they are living very peacefully in a nice house, getting good prasādam , having good knowledge in the books, and reforming their character and getting some good home, that is my success. Otherwise, they are loitering—no home, no character, no peace of mind. So at least this is my success. I have given so many boys a life. That is my success. Colin Cross: Well, I'm very honored to have met you. I've read some of your work. I intend to read more. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are trying to give the best service to the humanity, human society, and this is the only service. People should come forward and cooperate with us. It is not a sectarian, sentimental religious system. It is a scientific understanding of the value of life. Colin Cross: Well, thank you very much indeed, sir. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (end) (at Bhaktivedanta Manor) Viśāla: I have understood from other devotees that you said that anyone who has taken birth in India is in the mode of goodness, but anyone who has taken birth in the United States is in the mode of passion. And yet everyone is born śūdra . So could you make it clear to me? I don't understand. If we're all born śūdra , how are the people born in the mode of goodness in India and the people in the United States are born in the mode of passion? Prabhupāda: Same thing: that if you are born in a rich family, but you can squander away your money and become a poor man. Viśāla: Ah. Ah. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: (laughs) To born in a rich family is not a guarantee that you will continue to be rich. (laughs) (break) Viśāla: . . . how do you achieve the transcendental blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa, but better still, how do you achieve the transcendental blessings of the spiritual master? Prabhupāda: (to Gurudāsa) Answer him. Gurudāsa: By carrying out the orders of the spiritual master, cent percent. Prabhupāda: Answer him explaining. What is his question? Viśāla: How does one achieve the mercy of the spiritual master, the real mercy of the spiritual master, in order to achieve full Kṛṣṇa consciousness? (break) Gurudāsa: The spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa, so by serving the spiritual master, then we know how to serve Kṛṣṇa, and in that way we're serving . . . we are receiving the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. So this process is descending process, that we're receiving the benediction moon of Lord Kṛṣṇa's mercy through the spiritual master, and Lord Kṛṣṇa is saying: "Surrender to Me," but the question is how to surrender. So the spiritual master is there to explain how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So by doing what the spiritual master wishes, that is what Kṛṣṇa wishes. Just like a representative of an industrialist or the head of a university or any big, big man, his representative can distribute how best to serve in that way. And when that is being carried out, then the mercy is distributed. (break) Devotee (3): . . . simply, you know, following out your orders and instruction, then this will destroy all material desires that we have? We have no real desire to serve Lord Kṛṣṇa. We would rather be in His place. That's why we're here. And similarly, with the spiritual master, we don't really know how to serve him. We can say, "I surrender to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda," but that doesn't mean very much. But from simply by following your instructions you have set down, will this be enough to destroy all material desires we have? Prabhupāda: What do you mean by material desires? Devotee (3): Even within spiritual life, I may . . . Prabhupāda: No. Define material desires. Devotee (3): Material desires? To enjoy the senses and the body. To desire . . . Prabhupāda: Sense gratification. Devotee (3): Yes, sensual gratification. Prabhupāda: Then? Devotee (3): Even within spiritual life one can desire to be a great spiritualist, or one can desire to be a best devotee or best at doing this or being closest to the spiritual master, and things like that. Prabhupāda: That is not material desire. Devotee (3): That is not material desire? Prabhupāda: No. Material desire means sense gratification: I shall eat more, I shall sleep more, I shall have sex life more, I shall defend more—these are material desires. I shall serve more Kṛṣṇa—that is not material. I shall try my best for serving Kṛṣṇa—these are not material desires. These are spiritual desires. Desire you cannot stop. That is not possible. So long you are, your desires are there. Desire should be purified. When I desire to gratify my senses, that is material. When I desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. The desire is there. Not to stop desire. But desire for some personal sense gratification, that is material. And desire for satisfying Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. So you have to understand how you are desiring. Are you desiring for your personal gratification, or you are desiring to satisfy Kṛṣṇa? That anyone can understand. If you are in doubt, then ask your spiritual master that, "I am desiring like this. Whether it is material or spiritual?" That's all. General definition is, desiring for personal gratification is material; desiring for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction is spiritual. Now, because we are not experienced, we may commit mistake, one for the other. Therefore, whenever there is doubt, refer the matter to your spiritual master. So Māyāvādī philosopher says that, "Don't desire." That is not possible. "Don't desire" is not possible. Desire must be there, but I have to see whether I am desiring for my personal gratification or I am desiring for Kṛṣṇa. That is to be seen. And if you are in doubt, then ask your spiritual master. Is it clear? Devotee (3): Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) Devotee: . . . is that in our neophyte stage, how can we have actual desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to refer to the spiritual master. Devotee: You have to what to the spir . . .? Prabhupāda: Refer the matter to your spiritual master. If he says yes, it is all right. If he says no, then it is not right. (break) In primary school, the small child is writing and showing to the teacher, "Sir, it is all right?" and he says: "Yes, it is all right." That's all. If he says: "No," then you have to write again. (break) . . . candlestick? Woman devotee: Candles? Prabhupāda: These, candles. Woman devotee: In your room? Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman devotee: Your light is on. Prabhupāda: Huh? (break) That means, according to their system, sun is 93 million miles away. And if the moon is above that, 1,600,000, so it is almost 95 million. So after 95 million miles, how they can go in moon? Jayatīrtha: Of course, they say that the moon's only 263,000 miles away. Prabhupāda: That is wrong. Wrong means according to Bhāgavata , the moon is above. Harikeśa: It says: "The *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* describes that the covering of the universe is 200 . . ." uh, wait a minute now, "260 . . ." Prabhupāda: Billion Harikeśa: "260 million yojanas , and 2 billion", that's 2,080,000,000—miles away from the sun. "The distance from the sun to the earth is a hundred thousand yojanas ." Prabhupāda: That's all right. Yes. Harikeśa: So I took this reference, and I added it to the reference on 22.8. 22.8 says that, "Above the rays of the sunshine, by a distance of a hundred thousand yojanas , is the moon." Then it says: "When we take into account that the moon is a hundred thousand yojanas above the rays of the sunshine . . ." Prabhupāda: Above the rays of the sunshine. Harikeśa: Hmm. So the . . . Prabhupāda: Above. So the sun is far away from the earth. Harikeśa: But "The sun only goes as far as the rays of the . . ." (trying to calculate) Prabhupāda: That's all right, you can calculate . . . (indistinct) . . . now. I want just a rough estimate that if moon is accepted above the sun, it is their calculation the sun is from the earth at a distance of 93 million. So 93 million miles and 1,600,000 is about 95 million miles. So 95 million miles, even at the speed of 25,000 per hour, how they can they go in four days? When there is argument, I shall take your words in my favor. (laughter) That is the way. Whatever is in my favor, I shall take as good. And Mars is beyond that. So the other may be calculated. At the rate of 18,000 miles per hour, it takes about seven months to go to the moon planet. And above that, another 1,600,000 miles above, will be Mars. So it will take about nine months for that. Devotee (6): Actually, that's how long it took. Hari-śauri: Well, they say it's 208 million miles from earth. Devotee (6): This spaceship to Mars was supposed to have been launched almost a year ago. Hari-śauri: No. Their calculation to Mars is over 200 million miles. Prabhupāda: 200 million miles. Hari-śauri: Over. More than that. I can't remember the exact figure, but it was more than 200 million. Prabhupāda: But the sun is 93 million miles. So above that? Jayatīrtha: It's the other direction. The sun's that way, and Mars is the other way. Hari-śauri: It's away from the sun. Prabhupāda: That, what is called, solar system, eh? The sun is fixed up, and there are circle. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is not calculated above. What is there above? How they calculate the seven stars? Or the polestar? What is their calculation? Jayatīrtha: They say that it's hundreds of light years away. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: They say that the North Star is hundreds of light years away. Prabhupāda: Now, what does it mean, north? Jayatīrtha: It's always . . . because it's . . . Prabhupāda: Up. *Jayatīrtha: Umm*-hmm. Prabhupāda: So where is up? Gurudāsa: Isn't it fixed star? It's the one star that doesn't move, the North Star. The other stars move; this one doesn't. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Polestar. Gurudāsa: The North Star doesn't move, while all the others move; so therefore they call it the fixed point of north. Prabhupāda: No, no. Jayatīrtha: The sailors always used to point to it, towards north. Prabhupāda: Where is the North Star? Where solar system is, here is sun, and the circle, different types of other planets. So where is this North Star? Where it is situated in the solar system? Jayatīrtha: It's a long ways away from their solar system, they say. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: They say it's many billions of miles away from their solar system. Prabhupāda: So away, which side? Up? Down? North? South? You have to know the direction. Jayatīrtha: Must be up. Prabhupāda: And then what is that "up"? Why do they take "up," north? When we see the map, why do we take north as the up and south as the down? Why they take direction like that? So north means up? Jayatīrtha: Can you see the North Star from Australia? Hari-śauri: I don't think so. Jayatīrtha: There's different stars that are visible in Australia. Prabhupāda: How it must be visible? Gurudāsa: They do all navigation . . . Prabhupāda: Australia is . . . (indistinct) . . . place on this planet. If North Star is visible from here, it can be visible from there. Hari-śauri: No. I think they say that it's only visible from the northern hemisphere. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: That in the southern hemisphere, it's a completely different set of stars. You can't see the same set of stars from the southern hemisphere that you can from the northern hemisphere. In the southern hemisphere, they take their navigational readings from what's called the Southern Cross. It's a group of stars, and they take it from them. Prabhupāda: The seven stars are not visible? Hari-śauri: I don't know about the seven stars. I don't think the North Star is visible. Prabhupāda: If the North Star is not visible, the seven stars also you will not see. Hari-śauri: No. Other stars are visible. Prabhupāda: How it is visible? Because the seven stars are attached with the North Star. Hari-śauri: Alright I don't know about the seven stars, but there's some stars. Some stars are visible. Jayatīrtha: It's called the Big Dipper. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: In the West they call the seven stars the Big Dipper. Hari-śauri: Big Dipper. Jayatīrtha: And the North Star is one end of that. Hari-śauri: That's the Plow, right? It looks like that. Gurudāsa: It is like a ladle. Hari-śauri: No. You can't see that in the south. Prabhupāda: Saptarṣi . We call saptarṣi . Gurudāsa: Saptarṣi . Hari-śauri: That's not visible in the south. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: That is not visible in the southern hemisphere. Prabhupāda: I do not believe. Gurudāsa: In India it's visible. Hari-śauri: That's northern hemisphere. Jayatīrtha: North of the equator. Hari Śauri: It's not visible in Australia. Prabhupada: Srila . . . not fact. Jayatīrtha: It makes sense. Prabhupāda: What? Jayatīrtha: It makes sense, though. Prabhupāda: What is that? Jayatīrtha: That you couldn't see it, because the earth, they go like this, and the sun also, and the stars are up there. Prabhupāda: Then you cannot see sun also. Devotee (6): The sun is above the earth. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Earth. Hari-śauri: They can see the sun, because the sun is going around and moving up and down. Jayatīrtha: They say the sun is here, the earth is here, so that the earth is turning around like this. Therefore, sometimes you can see the sun and sometimes you can't. Devotee: And the seven stars . . . (indistinct) Jayatīrtha: In the nighttime you cannot see it; in the daytime you can. Because the earth is turning around and going like this. Prabhupāda: You know the seven stars are not visible from there? Hari-śauri: Yeah, I looked. I'm sure they're not visible. In the northern hemisphere they're always visible, but in the southern hemisphere they're not. I can check on it, but I'm . . . Prabhupāda: You can ask anyone from Australia whether the seven stars are visible there. Jayatīrtha: Yeah. Okay. Prabhupāda: Or you can ask any mathematicians or . . . (indistinct) . . . men. Hari-śauri: This is very confusing, this . . . Harikeśa: No, this chart was very carefully done. This chart was very carefully done. I appreciated it after I studied it for about a week. Very carefully done. Jayatīrtha: Yeah, I know what you mean. Hari-śauri: It's . . . there's only . . . Prabhupāda: It . . . (indistinct) . . . be it will be right. Devotee: But otherwise it was pretty good. Prabhupāda: It requires a little mathematical astronomy knowledge to translate this very difficult subject in Sanskrit language. I have done as far as possible, but when we make our planetarium, we have to consult the Indian astronomers or mathematicians. In this way, we have to correct if there is . . . (indistinct) Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa wouldn't let me find any. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: Every time I tried, it was a failure. I couldn't find anybody who knew. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . that is just like this chandelier. The North Star is up, and it is hanging, and the whole . . . (indistinct) . . . moon. Harikeśa: You should take your camera one day, put it on the roof, and point it at the polestar, and you'll see everything going like this. You put it on that beam where it's open all the time. Gurudāsa: Yes, open all the time. Harikeśa: You should do that, and you'll see everything going like that. It'll prove it. It'll knock out the whole scientific world. Hari-śauri: They've already done that, though, but they say it's for a different reason, don't they? Harikeśa: Well, that's what they say, but we've got the proof. Gurudāsa: But they agree on that, that it doesn't work. Harikeśa: Yeah, but then why everything's going around it? You can see it. Everything goes like that around the polestar. The whole thing. You can see little circles all around the polestar. That proves it. They can't deny it. (laughs) Gurudāsa: You can leave the camera lens open. Prabhupāda: If, when our night is, Australia is day? Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Huh? Is that the fact? Harikeśa: No, not necessarily. Hari-śauri: Partially. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: When it's nighttime in England, then it's daytime in Australia. Hari-śauri: Yeah, just like it's midsummer here now, and in Australia it's midwinter. Prabhupāda: That I know. Harikeśa: Day and night goes by the way it's situated around the earth, like India is nighttime now, and here is . . . Jayatīrtha: When it's daytime in Alaska, it's also daytime in Australia, because they're more or less on the same . . . Harikeśa: It goes by the . . . Jayatīrtha: It's on the same side. Harikeśa: Longitude. Hari-śauri: It's opposite. England and Australia are opposite on the globe. It's nighttime there as well. Jayatīrtha: Therefore they used to say that the sun never sets on the British Empire. Because when it was daytime in Australia, it was nighttime in Britain. (laughter) Gurudāsa: They say the sun never sets in the British Empire because the sun never shines on them . . . (indistinct) . . . the set. Jayatīrtha: (laughs) Nowadays that's true. Prabhupāda: (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . better now it is morning. So he says what is for me morning, evening. It is all dark. There are many millions of universes. So that is not visible. That is beyond the visible. Jayatīrtha: Yes. They would dispute that, but they have no proof. Prabhupāda: They have nothing proof. We have got proof. Their brain developed two hundred years ago, and this brain . . . they cannot calculate when it was developed. That is the difference. They were microbes at that time. While they were microbes, still development took place. In the beginning they were microbes? Jayatīrtha: That's what they say, yes. (laughs) Again you're using their argument against them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: Again you're using their argument against them. Prabhupāda: Yes. They were microbes. What can you say . . . (indistinct) . . .? So when you were microbes, the Vedic civilization was there. They have to admit. We speak of millions and trillions of years, and they speak of some thousands of years. They say the, what is called, human brain, the technical, 40,000 years ago . . . (indistinct) Jayatīrtha: Forty thousand? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: They say? Prabhupāda: Forty thousands or something, forty. Jayatīrtha: Oh, but it wasn't civilized. Gurudāsa: It wasn't developed. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: It wasn't civilized. Gurudāsa: The Pleistocene is one million, Pleistocene. But the brain developed 40,000. Prabhupāda: Because the life was beginning from microbic. But ours is in the beginning there was Brahmās brain, who is in charge of creating this universal affair. Gurudāsa: How many years is that calculated? Prabhupāda: That you cannot calculate. Jayatīrtha: It's logical that things were originally very big or very developed and then became degraded, and it isn't logical that things were originally small and became developed, because everything we see in the material world becomes eroded or becomes degraded over a period of time. A big stone gets washed down. Gurudāsa: From nature we see that things start nice and decay. Therefore this supports our facts also, that there was high civilization, not a civilization that's lower. It supports that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called Kali*-yuga. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Everything is degraded. Gurudāsa: Some people ask why there are no signs of dinosaurs at the time of Rāmacandra. Sometimes they ask that. Prabhupāda: So who knows? Who says there was no dinosaur? Gurudāsa: Because it's not . . . Prabhupāda: And what is that nonsense, dinosaur? That is manufactured by Darwin. Jayatīrtha: They put together the bones. Gurudāsa: Big bones. Jayatīrtha: Big bones. Prabhupāda: Big bones can be had still. Timiṅgala . Devotee (7): Also people were bigger at that time, so the little animals might have been bigger. Prabhupāda: No. Apart from that, the timiṅgala is there. It is about maybe two miles, three miles long. What is that? In the Pacific Ocean, if there is a fish two miles long, what is that? Jayatīrtha: Oh, the timiṅgila fish. They swallow whales. Gurudāsa: In the *Rāmāyaṇa* it talks about large birds, but it doesn't mention dinosaur. Prabhupāda: But dinosaur, it is English word. There may be some Sanskrit. Just like timiṅgala. Timiṅgala you will not find in the English dictionary, but this word is there. In the Bhāgavata there is timiṅgala . We haven't got to tax our brain so much for these thing, but we can have an idea of the whole universe through the knowledge given by Bhāgavata . That is all. We are not concerned where is the sun, where is the Mars. We kick all these things. We go to Vaikuṇṭha. Jayatīrtha: (laughter) Right. Prabhupāda: Even there are such things—there are undoubtedly—we don't care for these billion planets. We don't care. Jayatīrtha: Like the scientists were arguing. Recently they made a big campaign against astrology because they said that the stars and the planets have no influence on human behavior or human life; therefore astrology is useless. So I was saying to one man that the scientists say here that the planets and the stars have no influence on human life; therefore why are they spending so much time studying them and trying to go to them, if they have no influence? Waste of time. Prabhupāda: Then how long they will study? Even they study . . . Jayatīrtha: As long as they can get money from the government, they'll study. Prabhupāda: . . . what they will study? Their lifetime will be finished, and they are going to be a dog. Then instead of studying, they will bark. What they are going to do then? Gurudāsa: It's nonsense. There are so many people who just do nonsense in the name of science because they are weakened. They don't have an idea of the meaning of life, so they say: "The quest for new worlds." They don't even know what they're questing for. Nonsense. Prabhupāda: And what benefit they will get? Gurudāsa: No benefit, except money. Jayatīrtha: I read in the paper . . . Prabhupāda: From an economic point of view, it is simply waste of money. But they will do it. Jayatīrtha: One scientist did research in Texas . . . Prabhupāda: For knowledge sake, we have got this Bhāgavata. Bhāgavata says it is like this. That's all. Why shall I go to research unless I have got some business? Gurudāsa: Because they are not satisfied. They want to see something new. We are satisfied with the nectar of the Bhāgavata . They want something new because they're dissatisfied. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudāsa: They're dissatisfied, so they want something new. *Prabhupāda: Dissatisfied is the material life. Nobody is satisfied with any position. That is material world. If you have got one thousand rupees, you are not satisfied. If you have got one million rupees, you are not satisfied. If you have got many millions of rupees, you are not . . . Birla, ask them: "Are you satisfied? Why you are doing business? Go on." Nobody is satisfied. Indra is not satisfied, Candra is not satisfied. There is fight between the demons and devotees. This is material world—nobody can be satisfied. Therefore Vāmanadeva says that it is not possible to be satisfied. When Bali Mahārāja said that, "You are so learned*-speaking that Your instruction are to be accepted by the greatest learned man, but still You are so childish that You are asking me three feet of land. This is Your childish innocence. So why not ask more?" But He said: "No. Why shall I ask more? If I ask more, that will not satisfy Me. If I ask more, that will not satisfy Me. It will never satisfy Me. The best thing is, now whatever I need at the present moment, that much I want." And He is giving reason that, "A beggar should not ask from the giver more than what is absolutely necessary. So why shall I ask more?" Bali Mahārāja was inducing it that, "He is a child, so what three feet will do of this beggar?" He did not know that two feet is sufficient to cover up and down. So for argument's sake, that "You are asking me just like a . . . exactly as You are small boy." Gurudāsa: It also states in the *Bhāgavatam* that a beggar should not ask something that someone cannot give. Prabhupāda: No. Beggar, they should ask alms, little—not big amount from one person. The brahmacārī was sent house to house. Begging means alms, muṣṭi , for muṣṭi . So any family, one palmful of rice to give anyone in those days, practically. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So, where I have to go now? Jayatīrtha: We were thinking that it would be good if you rested for today. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: We were thinking that it would be good if you rested for the day and didn't go down, because yesterday you were quite tired after you went down. Hari-śauri: If you have to go out tomorrow morning, better thing is to rest completely today, and not strain yourself. Have at least one more day full rest. Because yesterday was the first time that you've had a full meal also. (end) (at Bhaktivedanta Manor) Viśāla: I have understood from other devotees that you said that anyone who has taken birth in India is in the mode of goodness, but anyone who has taken birth in the United States is in the mode of passion. And yet everyone is born śūdra . So could you make it clear to me? I don't understand. If we're all born śūdra , how are the people born in the mode of goodness in India and the people in the United States are born in the mode of passion? Prabhupāda: Same thing: that if you are born in a rich family, but you can squander away your money and become a poor man. Viśāla: Ah. Ah. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: (laughs) To born in a rich family is not a guarantee that you will continue to be rich. (laughs) (break) Viśāla: . . . how do you achieve the transcendental blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa, but better still, how do you achieve the transcendental blessings of the spiritual master? Prabhupāda: (to Gurudāsa) Answer him. Gurudāsa: By carrying out the orders of the spiritual master, cent percent. Prabhupāda: Answer him explaining. What is his question? Viśāla: How does one achieve the mercy of the spiritual master, the real mercy of the spiritual master, in order to achieve full Kṛṣṇa consciousness? (break) Gurudāsa: The spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa, so by serving the spiritual master, then we know how to serve Kṛṣṇa, and in that way we're serving . . . we are receiving the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. So this process is descending process, that we're receiving the benediction moon of Lord Kṛṣṇa's mercy through the spiritual master, and Lord Kṛṣṇa is saying: "Surrender to Me," but the question is how to surrender. So the spiritual master is there to explain how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So by doing what the spiritual master wishes, that is what Kṛṣṇa wishes. Just like a representative of an industrialist or the head of a university or any big, big man, his representative can distribute how best to serve in that way. And when that is being carried out, then the mercy is distributed. (break) Devotee (3): . . . simply, you know, following out your orders and instruction, then this will destroy all material desires that we have? We have no real desire to serve Lord Kṛṣṇa. We would rather be in His place. That's why we're here. And similarly, with the spiritual master, we don't really know how to serve him. We can say, "I surrender to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda," but that doesn't mean very much. But from simply by following your instructions you have set down, will this be enough to destroy all material desires we have? Prabhupāda: What do you mean by material desires? Devotee (3): Even within spiritual life, I may . . . Prabhupāda: No. Define material desires. Devotee (3): Material desires? To enjoy the senses and the body. To desire . . . Prabhupāda: Sense gratification. Devotee (3): Yes, sensual gratification. Prabhupāda: Then? Devotee (3): Even within spiritual life one can desire to be a great spiritualist, or one can desire to be a best devotee or best at doing this or being closest to the spiritual master, and things like that. Prabhupāda: That is not material desire. Devotee (3): That is not material desire? Prabhupāda: No. Material desire means sense gratification: I shall eat more, I shall sleep more, I shall have sex life more, I shall defend more—these are material desires. I shall serve more Kṛṣṇa—that is not material. I shall try my best for serving Kṛṣṇa—these are not material desires. These are spiritual desires. Desire you cannot stop. That is not possible. So long you are, your desires are there. Desire should be purified. When I desire to gratify my senses, that is material. When I desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. The desire is there. Not to stop desire. But desire for some personal sense gratification, that is material. And desire for satisfying Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. So you have to understand how you are desiring. Are you desiring for your personal gratification, or you are desiring to satisfy Kṛṣṇa? That anyone can understand. If you are in doubt, then ask your spiritual master that, "I am desiring like this. Whether it is material or spiritual?" That's all. General definition is, desiring for personal gratification is material; desiring for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction is spiritual. Now, because we are not experienced, we may commit mistake, one for the other. Therefore, whenever there is doubt, refer the matter to your spiritual master. So Māyāvādī philosopher says that, "Don't desire." That is not possible. "Don't desire" is not possible. Desire must be there, but I have to see whether I am desiring for my personal gratification or I am desiring for Kṛṣṇa. That is to be seen. And if you are in doubt, then ask your spiritual master. Is it clear? Devotee (3): Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) Devotee: . . . is that in our neophyte stage, how can we have actual desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to refer to the spiritual master. Devotee: You have to what to the spir . . .? Prabhupāda: Refer the matter to your spiritual master. If he says yes, it is all right. If he says no, then it is not right. (break) In primary school, the small child is writing and showing to the teacher, "Sir, it is all right?" and he says: "Yes, it is all right." That's all. If he says: "No," then you have to write again. (break) . . . candlestick? Woman devotee: Candles? Prabhupāda: These, candles. Woman devotee: In your room? Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman devotee: Your light is on. Prabhupāda: Huh? (break) That means, according to their system, sun is 93 million miles away. And if the moon is above that, 1,600,000, so it is almost 95 million. So after 95 million miles, how they can go in moon? Jayatīrtha: Of course, they say that the moon's only 263,000 miles away. Prabhupāda: That is wrong. Wrong means according to Bhāgavata , the moon is above. Harikeśa: It says: "The *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* describes that the covering of the universe is 200 . . ." uh, wait a minute now, "260 . . ." Prabhupāda: Billion Harikeśa: "260 million yojanas , and 2 billion", that's 2,080,000,000—miles away from the sun. "The distance from the sun to the earth is a hundred thousand yojanas ." Prabhupāda: That's all right. Yes. Harikeśa: So I took this reference, and I added it to the reference on 22.8. 22.8 says that, "Above the rays of the sunshine, by a distance of a hundred thousand yojanas , is the moon." Then it says: "When we take into account that the moon is a hundred thousand yojanas above the rays of the sunshine . . ." Prabhupāda: Above the rays of the sunshine. Harikeśa: Hmm. So the . . . Prabhupāda: Above. So the sun is far away from the earth. Harikeśa: But "The sun only goes as far as the rays of the . . ." (trying to calculate) Prabhupāda: That's all right, you can calculate . . . (indistinct) . . . now. I want just a rough estimate that if moon is accepted above the sun, it is their calculation the sun is from the earth at a distance of 93 million. So 93 million miles and 1,600,000 is about 95 million miles. So 95 million miles, even at the speed of 25,000 per hour, how they can they go in four days? When there is argument, I shall take your words in my favor. (laughter) That is the way. Whatever is in my favor, I shall take as good. And Mars is beyond that. So the other may be calculated. At the rate of 18,000 miles per hour, it takes about seven months to go to the moon planet. And above that, another 1,600,000 miles above, will be Mars. So it will take about nine months for that. Devotee (6): Actually, that's how long it took. Hari-śauri: Well, they say it's 208 million miles from earth. Devotee (6): This spaceship to Mars was supposed to have been launched almost a year ago. Hari-śauri: No. Their calculation to Mars is over 200 million miles. Prabhupāda: 200 million miles. Hari-śauri: Over. More than that. I can't remember the exact figure, but it was more than 200 million. Prabhupāda: But the sun is 93 million miles. So above that? Jayatīrtha: It's the other direction. The sun's that way, and Mars is the other way. Hari-śauri: It's away from the sun. Prabhupāda: That, what is called, solar system, eh? The sun is fixed up, and there are circle. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is not calculated above. What is there above? How they calculate the seven stars? Or the polestar? What is their calculation? Jayatīrtha: They say that it's hundreds of light years away. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: They say that the North Star is hundreds of light years away. Prabhupāda: Now, what does it mean, north? Jayatīrtha: It's always . . . because it's . . . Prabhupāda: Up. *Jayatīrtha: Umm*-hmm. Prabhupāda: So where is up? Gurudāsa: Isn't it fixed star? It's the one star that doesn't move, the North Star. The other stars move; this one doesn't. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Polestar. Gurudāsa: The North Star doesn't move, while all the others move; so therefore they call it the fixed point of north. Prabhupāda: No, no. Jayatīrtha: The sailors always used to point to it, towards north. Prabhupāda: Where is the North Star? Where solar system is, here is sun, and the circle, different types of other planets. So where is this North Star? Where it is situated in the solar system? Jayatīrtha: It's a long ways away from their solar system, they say. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: They say it's many billions of miles away from their solar system. Prabhupāda: So away, which side? Up? Down? North? South? You have to know the direction. Jayatīrtha: Must be up. Prabhupāda: And then what is that "up"? Why do they take "up," north? When we see the map, why do we take north as the up and south as the down? Why they take direction like that? So north means up? Jayatīrtha: Can you see the North Star from Australia? Hari-śauri: I don't think so. Jayatīrtha: There's different stars that are visible in Australia. Prabhupāda: How it must be visible? Gurudāsa: They do all navigation . . . Prabhupāda: Australia is . . . (indistinct) . . . place on this planet. If North Star is visible from here, it can be visible from there. Hari-śauri: No. I think they say that it's only visible from the northern hemisphere. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: That in the southern hemisphere, it's a completely different set of stars. You can't see the same set of stars from the southern hemisphere that you can from the northern hemisphere. In the southern hemisphere, they take their navigational readings from what's called the Southern Cross. It's a group of stars, and they take it from them. Prabhupāda: The seven stars are not visible? Hari-śauri: I don't know about the seven stars. I don't think the North Star is visible. Prabhupāda: If the North Star is not visible, the seven stars also you will not see. Hari-śauri: No. Other stars are visible. Prabhupāda: How it is visible? Because the seven stars are attached with the North Star. Hari-śauri: Alright I don't know about the seven stars, but there's some stars. Some stars are visible. Jayatīrtha: It's called the Big Dipper. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: In the West they call the seven stars the Big Dipper. Hari-śauri: Big Dipper. Jayatīrtha: And the North Star is one end of that. Hari-śauri: That's the Plow, right? It looks like that. Gurudāsa: It is like a ladle. Hari-śauri: No. You can't see that in the south. Prabhupāda: Saptarṣi . We call saptarṣi . Gurudāsa: Saptarṣi . Hari-śauri: That's not visible in the south. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: That is not visible in the southern hemisphere. Prabhupāda: I do not believe. Gurudāsa: In India it's visible. Hari-śauri: That's northern hemisphere. Jayatīrtha: North of the equator. Hari Śauri: It's not visible in Australia. Prabhupada: Srila . . . not fact. Jayatīrtha: It makes sense. Prabhupāda: What? Jayatīrtha: It makes sense, though. Prabhupāda: What is that? Jayatīrtha: That you couldn't see it, because the earth, they go like this, and the sun also, and the stars are up there. Prabhupāda: Then you cannot see sun also. Devotee (6): The sun is above the earth. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Earth. Hari-śauri: They can see the sun, because the sun is going around and moving up and down. Jayatīrtha: They say the sun is here, the earth is here, so that the earth is turning around like this. Therefore, sometimes you can see the sun and sometimes you can't. Devotee: And the seven stars . . . (indistinct) Jayatīrtha: In the nighttime you cannot see it; in the daytime you can. Because the earth is turning around and going like this. Prabhupāda: You know the seven stars are not visible from there? Hari-śauri: Yeah, I looked. I'm sure they're not visible. In the northern hemisphere they're always visible, but in the southern hemisphere they're not. I can check on it, but I'm . . . Prabhupāda: You can ask anyone from Australia whether the seven stars are visible there. Jayatīrtha: Yeah. Okay. Prabhupāda: Or you can ask any mathematicians or . . . (indistinct) . . . men. Hari-śauri: This is very confusing, this . . . Harikeśa: No, this chart was very carefully done. This chart was very carefully done. I appreciated it after I studied it for about a week. Very carefully done. Jayatīrtha: Yeah, I know what you mean. Hari-śauri: It's . . . there's only . . . Prabhupāda: It . . . (indistinct) . . . be it will be right. Devotee: But otherwise it was pretty good. Prabhupāda: It requires a little mathematical astronomy knowledge to translate this very difficult subject in Sanskrit language. I have done as far as possible, but when we make our planetarium, we have to consult the Indian astronomers or mathematicians. In this way, we have to correct if there is . . . (indistinct) Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa wouldn't let me find any. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: Every time I tried, it was a failure. I couldn't find anybody who knew. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . that is just like this chandelier. The North Star is up, and it is hanging, and the whole . . . (indistinct) . . . moon. Harikeśa: You should take your camera one day, put it on the roof, and point it at the polestar, and you'll see everything going like this. You put it on that beam where it's open all the time. Gurudāsa: Yes, open all the time. Harikeśa: You should do that, and you'll see everything going like that. It'll prove it. It'll knock out the whole scientific world. Hari-śauri: They've already done that, though, but they say it's for a different reason, don't they? Harikeśa: Well, that's what they say, but we've got the proof. Gurudāsa: But they agree on that, that it doesn't work. Harikeśa: Yeah, but then why everything's going around it? You can see it. Everything goes like that around the polestar. The whole thing. You can see little circles all around the polestar. That proves it. They can't deny it. (laughs) Gurudāsa: You can leave the camera lens open. Prabhupāda: If, when our night is, Australia is day? Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Huh? Is that the fact? Harikeśa: No, not necessarily. Hari-śauri: Partially. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: When it's nighttime in England, then it's daytime in Australia. Hari-śauri: Yeah, just like it's midsummer here now, and in Australia it's midwinter. Prabhupāda: That I know. Harikeśa: Day and night goes by the way it's situated around the earth, like India is nighttime now, and here is . . . Jayatīrtha: When it's daytime in Alaska, it's also daytime in Australia, because they're more or less on the same . . . Harikeśa: It goes by the . . . Jayatīrtha: It's on the same side. Harikeśa: Longitude. Hari-śauri: It's opposite. England and Australia are opposite on the globe. It's nighttime there as well. Jayatīrtha: Therefore they used to say that the sun never sets on the British Empire. Because when it was daytime in Australia, it was nighttime in Britain. (laughter) Gurudāsa: They say the sun never sets in the British Empire because the sun never shines on them . . . (indistinct) . . . the set. Jayatīrtha: (laughs) Nowadays that's true. Prabhupāda: (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . better now it is morning. So he says what is for me morning, evening. It is all dark. There are many millions of universes. So that is not visible. That is beyond the visible. Jayatīrtha: Yes. They would dispute that, but they have no proof. Prabhupāda: They have nothing proof. We have got proof. Their brain developed two hundred years ago, and this brain . . . they cannot calculate when it was developed. That is the difference. They were microbes at that time. While they were microbes, still development took place. In the beginning they were microbes? Jayatīrtha: That's what they say, yes. (laughs) Again you're using their argument against them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: Again you're using their argument against them. Prabhupāda: Yes. They were microbes. What can you say . . . (indistinct) . . .? So when you were microbes, the Vedic civilization was there. They have to admit. We speak of millions and trillions of years, and they speak of some thousands of years. They say the, what is called, human brain, the technical, 40,000 years ago . . . (indistinct) Jayatīrtha: Forty thousand? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: They say? Prabhupāda: Forty thousands or something, forty. Jayatīrtha: Oh, but it wasn't civilized. Gurudāsa: It wasn't developed. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: It wasn't civilized. Gurudāsa: The Pleistocene is one million, Pleistocene. But the brain developed 40,000. Prabhupāda: Because the life was beginning from microbic. But ours is in the beginning there was Brahmās brain, who is in charge of creating this universal affair. Gurudāsa: How many years is that calculated? Prabhupāda: That you cannot calculate. Jayatīrtha: It's logical that things were originally very big or very developed and then became degraded, and it isn't logical that things were originally small and became developed, because everything we see in the material world becomes eroded or becomes degraded over a period of time. A big stone gets washed down. Gurudāsa: From nature we see that things start nice and decay. Therefore this supports our facts also, that there was high civilization, not a civilization that's lower. It supports that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called Kali*-yuga. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Everything is degraded. Gurudāsa: Some people ask why there are no signs of dinosaurs at the time of Rāmacandra. Sometimes they ask that. Prabhupāda: So who knows? Who says there was no dinosaur? Gurudāsa: Because it's not . . . Prabhupāda: And what is that nonsense, dinosaur? That is manufactured by Darwin. Jayatīrtha: They put together the bones. Gurudāsa: Big bones. Jayatīrtha: Big bones. Prabhupāda: Big bones can be had still. Timiṅgala . Devotee (7): Also people were bigger at that time, so the little animals might have been bigger. Prabhupāda: No. Apart from that, the timiṅgala is there. It is about maybe two miles, three miles long. What is that? In the Pacific Ocean, if there is a fish two miles long, what is that? Jayatīrtha: Oh, the timiṅgila fish. They swallow whales. Gurudāsa: In the *Rāmāyaṇa* it talks about large birds, but it doesn't mention dinosaur. Prabhupāda: But dinosaur, it is English word. There may be some Sanskrit. Just like timiṅgala. Timiṅgala you will not find in the English dictionary, but this word is there. In the Bhāgavata there is timiṅgala . We haven't got to tax our brain so much for these thing, but we can have an idea of the whole universe through the knowledge given by Bhāgavata . That is all. We are not concerned where is the sun, where is the Mars. We kick all these things. We go to Vaikuṇṭha. Jayatīrtha: (laughter) Right. Prabhupāda: Even there are such things—there are undoubtedly—we don't care for these billion planets. We don't care. Jayatīrtha: Like the scientists were arguing. Recently they made a big campaign against astrology because they said that the stars and the planets have no influence on human behavior or human life; therefore astrology is useless. So I was saying to one man that the scientists say here that the planets and the stars have no influence on human life; therefore why are they spending so much time studying them and trying to go to them, if they have no influence? Waste of time. Prabhupāda: Then how long they will study? Even they study . . . Jayatīrtha: As long as they can get money from the government, they'll study. Prabhupāda: . . . what they will study? Their lifetime will be finished, and they are going to be a dog. Then instead of studying, they will bark. What they are going to do then? Gurudāsa: It's nonsense. There are so many people who just do nonsense in the name of science because they are weakened. They don't have an idea of the meaning of life, so they say: "The quest for new worlds." They don't even know what they're questing for. Nonsense. Prabhupāda: And what benefit they will get? Gurudāsa: No benefit, except money. Jayatīrtha: I read in the paper . . . Prabhupāda: From an economic point of view, it is simply waste of money. But they will do it. Jayatīrtha: One scientist did research in Texas . . . Prabhupāda: For knowledge sake, we have got this Bhāgavata. Bhāgavata says it is like this. That's all. Why shall I go to research unless I have got some business? Gurudāsa: Because they are not satisfied. They want to see something new. We are satisfied with the nectar of the Bhāgavata . They want something new because they're dissatisfied. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudāsa: They're dissatisfied, so they want something new. *Prabhupāda: Dissatisfied is the material life. Nobody is satisfied with any position. That is material world. If you have got one thousand rupees, you are not satisfied. If you have got one million rupees, you are not satisfied. If you have got many millions of rupees, you are not . . . Birla, ask them: "Are you satisfied? Why you are doing business? Go on." Nobody is satisfied. Indra is not satisfied, Candra is not satisfied. There is fight between the demons and devotees. This is material world—nobody can be satisfied. Therefore Vāmanadeva says that it is not possible to be satisfied. When Bali Mahārāja said that, "You are so learned*-speaking that Your instruction are to be accepted by the greatest learned man, but still You are so childish that You are asking me three feet of land. This is Your childish innocence. So why not ask more?" But He said: "No. Why shall I ask more? If I ask more, that will not satisfy Me. If I ask more, that will not satisfy Me. It will never satisfy Me. The best thing is, now whatever I need at the present moment, that much I want." And He is giving reason that, "A beggar should not ask from the giver more than what is absolutely necessary. So why shall I ask more?" Bali Mahārāja was inducing it that, "He is a child, so what three feet will do of this beggar?" He did not know that two feet is sufficient to cover up and down. So for argument's sake, that "You are asking me just like a . . . exactly as You are small boy." Gurudāsa: It also states in the *Bhāgavatam* that a beggar should not ask something that someone cannot give. Prabhupāda: No. Beggar, they should ask alms, little—not big amount from one person. The brahmacārī was sent house to house. Begging means alms, muṣṭi , for muṣṭi . So any family, one palmful of rice to give anyone in those days, practically. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So, where I have to go now? Jayatīrtha: We were thinking that it would be good if you rested for today. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: We were thinking that it would be good if you rested for the day and didn't go down, because yesterday you were quite tired after you went down. Hari-śauri: If you have to go out tomorrow morning, better thing is to rest completely today, and not strain yourself. Have at least one more day full rest. Because yesterday was the first time that you've had a full meal also. (end) (at the house of Ksirodakasayi dasa) (kīrtana in background) *Jayatīrtha: . . . was sitting previously, which was being worshiped, Sanātana was being worshiped at this place. So he sat down because he was thinking that he was good as standing up, same as standing up. So one Vaiṣṇava priest who was taking care of the place, he threw him out. So in the book they complained that the Vaiṣṇavas are considered to be very narrow*-minded. (laughter) Now I can understand . . . Prabhupāda: Here. He was kicked out. Jayatīrtha: Yes, the boy threw him out. So they were complaining about this. Prabhupāda: Just see. How bogus he was. No, when I go to met in . . . (indistinct) . . . that, in the beginning that Prabhavananda, the rascal said that, "RamaKṛṣṇa was formerly Caitanya Mahāprabhu." He began like that. Then I could understand, "What a rascal he is, and I have to waste my time." So I did not answer anything. I said: "Thank you very much for your meeting," and I went out. This rascal's first proposal was that RamaKṛṣṇa Thakur was formerly Caitanya. This is the beginning. He was so rascal. (pause) Prabhupāda: This is framework house. Hare Kṛṣṇa. If some of the svāmīs may have said, they say that, "Why you call us rascal and so many things?" So you say that, "We are not calling you; Kṛṣṇa says. So we are pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have to repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's it. We cannot help it. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ ( BG 7.15). So you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore you must be mūḍha ." Kṣīrodakaśāyī: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Jayatīrtha: The best thing Kṛṣṇa has to say about them is that they are abuddhayaḥ . The best thing Kṛṣṇa says about them is they are unintelligent. Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ (BG 7.24). *Prabhupāda: Abuddhayaḥ , no intelligence. And similarly, those who are demigod*-worshiper, they have been described naṣṭa-buddhayaḥ , "Lost of intelligence." These are statements in the Bhagavad-gītā . We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness; we have to say. How we can avoid this? It may be displeasing to you, but we are not sorry. (laughter) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We are not sorry. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say the other party. But we have to say it. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No, they all very pleased. They are all very pleased there. I say, when you can get off and Prabhupāda again comes, take prasādam , you can get off on that. They are waiting, but they will not take prasāda unless Prabhupāda's . . . they are about . . . over about two hundred people now. This temple here, all garden full. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they liked. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, they liked very much. Prabhupāda: But I spoke very strong thing against RamaKṛṣṇa. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Because you spoke the truth, facts. Prabhupāda: And I challenged that, "Any question? Please come." Indian man: (indistinct) . . . couldn't say anything. Prabhupāda: Dr. Kapoor says that . . . Indian man: O.B.L. Kapoor? Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, yes. That, "Bhaktivedanta Swami speaks as strongly as Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī was speaking." You know that? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Oh, yes. I met so many times. I understand also. Prabhupāda: He said that. Jayatīrtha: Very nice compliment. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: He also said that, "Śrīla Prabhupāda is only one who has really taken the . . . his mission seriously." Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Of course, I don't say myself. That will not look good. But there is other . . . (indistinct conversation in background) They, all my Godbrothers, realize it. "But he is the only representative." Somebody, they frankly admit, and somebody do not. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I met . . . some, they are starting coming here to see how the things are. (laughs) They all came. Still they are coming. I think . . . somebody said that Bon Mahārāja came. Prabhupāda: He came here? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Pardon? Not here. I mean in London. Not here. I never invite anybody, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, no. London he came? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, I heard. I don't know. Somebody was telling. And then so many svāmīs , so many, from Vṛndāvana they are coming. Because many, many guests come, Prabhupāda, in the week or during the day. They tell me that "Would you like to go? Some svāmī has come, some . . ." "Our svāmī is already here." (laughs) Prabhupāda: That's it. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: They invite some invitation. They have had a big international religious conference in Millford a few weeks back, and all the professors, universities and big, big shark . . . I have got not got the English . . . Prabhupāda: Mūḍhas . Kṣīrodakaśāyī: (laughs) Mūḍhas , yes. So I understand . . . some of the friends he said it was a big feast and all that, but there was nothing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They never talk about the Lord. They were simply arguing each other, "I think so." (laughs) Prabhupāda: This is their business. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Big, big professor from the university, from Glasgow, so many professors. Big pamphlet came to me. They all send it . . . at least, they send it to this place here. I know from where they get the address or the name all that, and they send, many, many of these new societies. Jayatīrtha: You're becoming famous. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: (laughs) No, no. Guru Mahārāja becomes. Prabhupāda: Keep our standard. Then everyone will give assistance. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We got many times, many very distinguished . . . one time that church vicar has come here to see how things are. Chinese people came, Englishmen. One of the lady, not very far from here, she came one morning, said: "My brother is in the hospital, and he is very sick. I know you are a pious people. Can you pray for him?" And "You never . . . you pray the Lord. You come here. Lord is here." And . . . Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not very far from here. Said: "We hear the noise in the morning, and we have got these feelings that these are very good thing." An English lady. Jayatīrtha: Oh, this was an English person who came. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: English, yes. She is feeling in the heart. Prabhupāda: To jo wo laundry ka business tha. So that laundry business that was there.) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Poocha tha Prabhupad. (I enquired Prabhupāda.) Prabhupāda: Wo makan me abhi koi hai? (Does anyone live in that house?) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Wo laundry ka dekhbal karta hai. (He looks after the laundry.) Prabhupāda: Wo laundry ka businesss achha chal raha hai. (The laundry business is doing well.) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: . . . bus bhagvan ki seva ho jaye to sab accha hai nahi to kuch accha nahi hai. Apna to yehi kaam hai ki. (If we are able to serve the Lord then everything is good, otherwise nothing is good. That is our work if we can do it.) By your grace, Kṛṣṇa is here, and we have no intention to come from there. I had intention that let the children go back home. And we fight, all this stuff. I say, "All right, we must start to fully educate him." Full education is that he become advanced in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: So I said: "We haven't got any education." Under the law of this country, if they have to remain here, they have to go up to sixteen years to the school. And if they're qualified, then they . . . Prabhupāda: No, education is good, but the association is . . . Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No, they don't have any asso . . . they don't go anywhere. They don't eat anywhere. Even so many invitation comes, either they go to the library or they go to the temple or this place. They have no friends, nothing else. No friends. They don't even take the water anywhere, even to my brother's house. They don't take anywhere. Prabhupāda: Your brother is also here? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, he's here now. And he was not very good terms last eight years with me. But when I established this temple, by your grace, Prabhupāda, he has also realized it now that this is good. And my difference with him was that, "You should give up this nonsense of drinking this, all these things." That was only . . . nothing else, about money or anything. I say, "I cannot eat at your place unless you give up these things." I go there, don't eat anything. Prabhupāda: Still, he drinks. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Still he drinks. That is the fact. He doesn't eat meat, of course, but he says . . . he has got business, good business, plenty of money. I am poor materially, but Prabhupāda, my father, spiritual father, is so rich that I am getting money every day. Materially, I am poor, but I am so richer, you are giving so treasure . . . you see in our library there, we have so many nice library of each and every of your book downstairs, and more we read, we say, well plenty money is coming. (break) . . . from the temple. Life Member comes there. We sell the Gujarati magazine. I brought all magazines from Gujarati. Now second issue has not come. The same problem. I don't . . . Prabhupāda: This is . . . have printed. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: But whatever I brought, it went within two, three weeks. Prabhupāda: So Yaśomatīnandana? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Ha uske letter aya hai ki: (Yes, his letter has come that:) "The next issue is in the press, and I'll soon send." And Gopāla dāsa I also written. Because there are many Gujaratis here, and they are becoming Life Members. They have been very much in the temple. Anybody comes here, we send out to the Manor. I say: "Here Kṛṣṇa is . . . here we are. Here we have got everything by Kṛṣṇa's grace, and all the help should go to this center." Prabhupāda: You are preparing something of bitter melon? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Bitter? You mean the . . . Prabhupāda: Karelās , yes. *Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Brinjal also. Brinjal . Brinjal I have got. To Prabhupada wo Bhagavad*-gītā ka ye hai Gopal das ne kaha ki translation karo to 2 to 4 chapter humne kiya hai . . . karte raho. waise accha hai 3 to 4 aadmi ko . . . aisa kiya hai to jo bhi hain devotee hain, professional hain ya educated hain. (So Prabhupada, the Bhagavad-gītā Gopal dasa told me to translate, so I translated 2 to 4 chapters . . . keep doing . . . but it is nice 3 to 4 people . . . we have done like this. So whatever it is they are devotees, they are professionals or they are educated.) (break) Prabhupāda: Theek hai sab Vaikunth chale jayenge. (All right, everyone will go to the Vaikuntha planets.) *Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Hindi me Bhagavad*-gītā chapne chahiye bahut jaldi. (The Bhagavad-gītā should be printed in Hindi as soon as possible.) Harikeśa: How much is left? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No, no, we just starting it. Prabhupāda approved that, starting, starting with two chapters three times. *Prabhupāda: No, you can do one thing. Part by part, you publish in the Bhāgavata*-darśana so that he can . . . everyone can see how it is. Then it will be good. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Oh, yes. No, I showed to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu when he came here. He also came here when he came to London. He came one day here, so I showed all these and I read little bit. Prabhupāda: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa himself is not very expert. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No. So he said that, "Śrīla Prabhupāda is coming now," so if you get a chance . . . Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that whatever you have written, let it be published in the . . . Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, I understand Prabhupāda: . . . so that everyone can see. Then we can understand. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I see. So I will send to India chapter by chapter, and they can publish . . . *Prabhupāda: With a letter that, "Prabhupāda says like this, that you print in the Hindi edition of Bhāgavata*-darśana so that everyone will see, and they will judge how it is done nicely." Harikeśa: Should I make this? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I'll send the first chapter complete. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Duplicate it and keep one copy with me here and one copy send off, and they can publish in the Back to Godhead here. Prabhupāda: The difficulty is that in India, in different parts of India different standard. Somebody says: "This standard is good", somebody says: "This standard is good." Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Well, we are not worried about the criticism. Prabhupāda: Eh? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We are not worried about the criticism, anybody say. What you say, we'll take that one line, the guideline. Prabhupāda: No, I am not authority in Hindi, but this Hindi, different parts of India, a different standard. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, that's true. That is why I had not depend on myself. It going there from the four people different, one after another, and they are qualified Sanskrit and Hindi scholars. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let it be published. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Complete corrections also. It's not going by . . . Prabhupāda: So you can show me some samples which you have completed. Yes, you can show me some. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: (Indian man enters and speaks with Kṣīrodakaśāyī) Śrīla Prabhupāda, devotees are asking can you take prasāda and go to Manor? There's some press coming, but without you they're . . . is it all right? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All right. I will take some time. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Is it all right? Prabhupāda: I ordered . . . Harikeśa: Others, they are also waiting. The Indians, they are . . . Prabhupāda: So let them all take. You can also go down. (break) (Prabhupāda moves outside) Hari-śauri: If you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Harikeśa: Now it's recording. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . word by word. Kīrtimā: And translate into English. Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to do it. Give him the book. Simply book. Why you are taking this? Here? Yes. *Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Ye Bhagavad*-gītā ka tervan adhyay hai prakriti aur anand bhogta ka chetna. (This is the 13th chapter of Bhagavad-gītā , "Nature, the Enjoyer and Consciousness".) Uske pehle ye do slok hain. (There are two verses before that.) Indian man (2): Should I read the translation in Hindi? Prabhupāda: Yes, so that . . . Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Arjuna said: O my dear Kṛṣṇa, I wish to know about prakṛti [nature], puruṣa [the enjoyer], and the field and the knower of the field, and of knowledge and the object of knowledge. The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: This body, O son of Kuntī, is called the field, and one who knows this body is called the knower of the field. Prabhupāda: Thoda explain karo. (Explain a little more.) *Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Arjun jo hai vo bhagavan sri Kṛṣṇa se jijnasa kar rahe hain prakriti ke vishay mein. Hum log sab jante hain ke prakriti kya hai. aap inse poochiye koi kehta hai ki supreme nature hai magar vo ye nahi janta ki supreme nature kiska nature hai. Aap jante hain ki apka prakriti mai prakriti se alag hai. Jahan prakriti hai waha kehte hain supreme nature wo sabse badi cheez hai. To humlog ko poochna chahiye kiska nature, kiski prakriti. Bhagavad*-gītā me phir kehte hain " mayadhyaksena prakritih suyate sa-caracaram " mere nirdeshan me ye prakriti jo hai karya kar rahi hai. To jaha prakriti hai vahan purush bhi hai. (Arjuna is enquiring from Kṛṣṇa about nature. We all know what is material. You ask them, some say it is supreme nature but they don’t know whom this supreme nature belongs to. You know that . . . nature is different from your nature. Where there is nature, it is said that supreme nature is the biggest asset. So we must ask whose nature.) Bhagavan Sri Kṛṣṇa jo hai vo param purush. Is tarah se jo apne sharir ko janta hai sharir ko shetra kaha gaya hai aur sharir ke andar jo atma hai use kshetragnya mana gaya hai. To Arjun jo hai vo bhagavan se jijnasa kar rahe hain ki prakriti kise kehte hain, purush kaun hai ye kshetra kya cheez hai aur kshetragnya kyunki hamare sri Kṛṣṇa bhavanamrit andolan ka moolbhoot siddhant ye hai ki humlog ye sharir nahi hain. Aap coat kameez pehne hue hain hum apse baat kar rahe hain apke kameez ya coat ko hum nahi dekhte usi tarah humlog ka ye jo sri Kṛṣṇa bhavanamrit ka andolan hai humlog ye kehte hain ki sab jeev, manushya hi nahi sab jeev bhagavan ke ansh hain kyunki unme atma hai. Bhagavan ka ek naam paramatma kaha jata hai, param atma vo sab ke atma hain aur humlog unke chote se ansh hain. Is tarah se hum sab chahe vo american ho ya african ho chahe bhartiya ho chahe german ho koi bhi ho usko hum ye prachar karte hain ki tum ye sharir nahi ho bhagavan ke ansh ho bhagavan ke das ho bhagvan ke sevak ho aur tumhara ye kartavya hai ki tum bhagavan ki seva karo. *(In Bhagavad*-gītā it is said " Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥsūyate sa-carācaram ", this nature is working under my direction, so where there is nature there is enjoyer also. Bhagavan Sri Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer. In this way one who knows his body, the body is called a field and the soul, which is inside the body is called the knower of the field. So Arjuna is enquiring from Sri Kṛṣṇa that, "What is nature? Who is enjoyer? What is this field and knower of the field?" Because the basic philosophy of our Kṛṣṇa Consciousness movement is, "We are not this body". You are wearing this coat-shirt and I am talking to you but I am not looking at your dress. Just like that, this Kṛṣṇa Consciousness movement that we have—that all entities, not only humans. All living entities are part and parcel of the Lord because everyone has a soul. One of the names of God is Paramātmā param ātmā—He is seated in everyone’s heart as Paramātmā and we are his tiny parts. In this way all of us—whether he is American, African, Indian, German—whoever it is, we preach to them that, "You are not this body, you are part of God, his servant, his follower and it is your duty that you serve God.") *Haat jo hai wo apke sharir ka ang hai, yadi haat khush hona chahta hai to jab vo bhojan utha ke moo me dalega aur pet me jab bhojan pahunchega to haat apne*-aap khush ho jayega kyunki haat jo hai wo sharir ka hissa hai. To humlog jo hain bhagavan ka hissa hain yadi hum bhagavan ka seva karenge apne-aap hum khush ho jayenge nahi to haat bine pet me bhojan diye khush hona chahta hoon khush nahi ho payega chahe gulab-jamoon rakha ho haat use choota rahe magar haat jab tak moo me nahi dalega tab tak wo khush nahi hoga. Is tarah humlog jo jeev-matr hain jab tak bhagavan ke seva nahi karenge khush nahi ho sakte. Ye machli hai usko aap pani se nikal dijiye. (This hand is part of your body and if your hand wants to be happy. Then when he picks up food and puts it in his mouth, and when the food reaches the stomach, then the hand becomes happy automatically because the hand is part of the body. Similarly we are part of God, and if we serve Him then automatically we become happy. Without offering food to the stomach, the hand will not be happy. If sweet meat balls are kept in front of you, unless you take if and put it into your mouth, the hand will not be happy—we will not be happy. Similarly, we who are living entities — unless we offer service to the Lord, we will not be happy. This fish, if you remove it from the water, it will not be happy.) *Aur chahe bahut bade bhavan me rakh dijiye, usko TV, sofa*-set sab de dijiye, machli mar jayegi pani se bahar nikalte hi. Wohi dasha hamari hai, humlog tadap rahe hain kyunki bhagavan ko bhool gaye hain. To bhagavan ko yaad karne ke liye phir se vapas janm me chale jayenge to khush ho jayenge. (Whether you keep it in a big mansion, give it a TV, give a sofa — give everything — the fish will die as soon as you take it out of water. Similarly, in our condition we are restless because we have forgotten God. So to remember God, we should again take birth — then we will be happy.) Jab arjun ne in sab vishayon ke bare me Sri Kṛṣṇa se poocha, to bhagavan ne kaha ki is sharir ko hum kshetra kehte hain aur jo is sharir ko janta hai use kshetrgna ya knower of the field kaha jata hai. Ye sharir jo hai, ye badh atma jo humlog hain unke liye atma kriya kshetra hai. Atma jaroor hai hum me par atma sharir ke madhyam se kaam karti hai. Atma jab sharir se chali jati hai to hai to hai wohi sharir haat na dekh sakta hai, na aap naak se soongh sakte hain, usi sharir ko jala diya jata hai. Aap jinda sharir ko jalaiye koi soch bhi nahi sakta, lekin atma chali jati hai. To atma jab tak thi uske madhyam se hum dekh rahe hain, bol rahe hain, sun rahe hain. (And then Arjuna enquired about all this from Sri Kṛṣṇa, then God said that we call this body the field. The one who knows this body is called the knower of the field. We have this body, we are conditioned souls. For them the soul is the field of action. We definitely have a soul, but it is working through the medium of this body. When the soul leaves the body then with the same body the hand cannot be seen, the eyes cannot see, the nose cannot smell and we burn the same body. Nobody can think of burning a live body, but when the soul leaves the body — unless the soul was there in the body we could see, speak or hear.) Sri Kṛṣṇa samjha rahe hain ki ye sharir jo hai wo karya kshetra hai, atma to mukhya cheez hai, atma sharir ke madhyam se karya karti hai. Jo humlog ye badh jeev hain . . . (Sri Kṛṣṇa is explaining this body is a field of action, the soul is an important fact — the soul does the work through the body. We are conditioned souls . . .) Prabhupāda: Jaise ye chashma hai ye chashma dekhta nahi aankh dekhta hai chashma ka through se. Agar koi kehta hai ki chashma dekhta hai to vo murkh hai. chashma nahi dekhta hai. Usi prakar atma jo hai use khestrgna kaha jata hai. Jo kshetragna asal cheez hai, yeh kshetra, sharir asal cheez nahi hai, ye madhyam hai. jaise udharan diya gaya to chashma se dekhte hain, chashma nahi dekhta hai, usko samajhna chahiye. (Like these specks are there but the specks do not see, the eyes see through the specks. If someone says that the specks see, then he is a fool. The specks do not see. Similarly, the soul is called the knower of the field — this is the real fact but the body is not real. It is a medium, the example is given that the specks do not see, the eyes see through specks — we must understand this.) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: To is tarah se hum jo baddh jeev jo hai maya ke chakkar me pade hain aur humlog bhautik prakriti ke swami banane ki koshish kar rahe hain. Bhagvan koi nahi hai, hum hain, hum khush ho jaye. Hum apni shakti ke anusar is prakriti pe kabja karne ki koshish karte hain, adhikar jamane ki koshish karte hain chahe wo aadmi bada ho, chota ho, janwar ho sab yahi sochte hain ki main iska malik hoon. (So like this, we who are conditioned souls, we are under the spell of maya . We are trying to lord it over nature, "There is no God, we are God, we must be happy. According to our strength, we try to capture nature, establish our authority over nature." Whether he is a big or small man or animal — everyone thinks that I am the owner of this nature.) Chota sa chuha hai apne samarth ke anusar chura layega, aadmi bada hai wo badi chori karta hai ye sab chori kar rahe hain bhagvan ka bina bhagvan ko malik samjhe. Isopanishad me ek sloka aata hai . . . (Even a small rat, according to its strength, steals something from somewhere—a big man steals big things. Everyone is stealing from God without accepting God as the owner. In the Sri Isopanisad , there is a verse . . .) Prabhupāda: Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Ye bhagavan jo hai unka hi sab kuch hai. To jitna apko jaroorat hai aap le lijiye aur baki doosro ke upayog ke liye chod de. Srila Prabhupad udharan dete hain ki ek bag chawal ka ya gehoon ka raaste me pada ho ek chidiya ayegi do dane kha legi aur chali jayegi. Aadmi ayega pehle pet bhar khayega phir jhola uthakar apne ghar me rakh lega. To isi ke karan pure sansar me log jo kasht paa rahe hain khane ki kami hai, anaz ki kami hai, is liye ki anaz hai par usko log chura rahe hain. Ye hamari sampatti hai bina bhagvan ko jane. To hamara jo sharir hai car ka kriya kshetra hai aur sharir kya hai wo indriyon se bana hua hai. (This God everything belongs to Him. So how much you want you take and leave the rest for the benefit of others. Srila Prabhupāda gives an example that a bag of rice or wheat is lying on the street. One bird comes and eats a few grains and flies away but a man comes and first fills his belly and then carries the bag of wheat home. So as a result people are suffering in this world, shortage of food grains, food. Not because food is not there but people are stealing thinking this belongs to me wihtout knowing god. So our body is action field of car and what is body, it is made up of senses.) *Humlog ki panch gyanendriya hoti hai aur paanch karmendiya hoti hai aur ek man aur ahankar. Isliye humlog bhagvan ki bhakti kyunki humlog maya me hain, apne sharir se shoru kar sakte hain. Abhi hum log apna indriya bhog, kewal apne sukh ke liye karya karna chahte hain. shari wohi hai, indriya wohi, jaise aankh, aap aankh se cinema dekh sakte hain aur aap aankh se bhagvan ki murti Sri Radha*-Gokulanada yahan par hain unke darshan kar sakte hain. (We have 5 knowledge-acquiring senses and 5 working senses and one mind and ego. That is why we cannot do devotion to the Lord because we are in illusion. We can start devotion with our body. Now we want to work only for sense gratification, only for our pleasure. The body is the same, the senses are the same. Like our eyes, we can watch movies with our eyes or see the Deities of Sri Radha-Gokulananda which are here, have His darshan .) Indriya wohi hain yadi aap unko bhagavan ke darshan me lagate hain to bhakti ho jati hai nahi to vishay bhog hai. Usme apko kewal . . . sabhi log aajkal bajaye aatma ko samajhne ke apne sharir ko hi khud mante hain. Agar poochiye aap kaun hain, hum bhartiya hain, pacchees saal ke hain, tees saal ke hain, ye sharir, main kaun hoon. aap jante hain apka sharir chota sa tha, main chota tha ab main bada ho gay, main boodha ho jaoonga, to main wohi hoon, vo chota sharir kahan chala gaya, wo bade sharir me ho gaya, isi tarah se jab aap boodhe ho jate hain to atma wohi rehti hai, atma sharir chod kar ke doosre sharir me chali jati hai. (The senses are the same but if you engage them in the service of the Lord then it becomes devotion otherwise it becomes sense gratification. In it you will . . . everyone nowadays, instead of understanding the soul, think that I am this body. If you ask them, they say I am indian, 25 to 30 years old. Who is there in this body? You know that this body was small—I was young, now I have grown up, now I will become old. So I am the same, where is the small boy, it has grown into a big boy. Similarly when you grow old the soul remains the same. The soul leaves the body and enters another body. *Apka jab kameez purana ho jata hai to aap usko chod kar ke nayi kameez le lete hain. Isi tarah atma ka kabhi naash nahi hota. To wo vyakti jo apne ko sharir na mane par atma mane use kshetragnya kehte he knower of the field. Ye ab koi bahut mushkil nahi hai atma me aur sharir me antar samajhna. Srila Prabhupad ne wohi udharan diya jo maine kuch der pehle kaha, humlog bacche the boodha ho gaya, sharir badal raha hai 24 ghante. Vigyan ke anusar bhi apke sharir me kriyayen*-pratikriyayen ho rahin hain, 24 ghante apka sharir badal raha hai, har shan, har pratipal magar atma apki wohi hai. sharir me baithi hui atma jo ki ek vyakti hai wo ek hai, deh badal raha hai. (When your shirt becomes old then you give it up and buy a new shirt. Similarly the soul is never destroyed. So that person who does not think that he is this body but is spirit soul, is called knower of the field. So now it is not difficult to understand the difference between body and soul. Srila Prabhupāda has given the same example which i mentioned before. We were children, then became old. The body is continuously undergoing changes every 24 hours. According to science also, action—reactions are going on in your body, in 24 hours your body is changing, every minute, every second but sould is the same, the soul inside the body which is our identity, body is changing. Yehi antar hai jo deh ke karya ko janta hai aur jo vastvik roop se atma ka Swaroop pehchanta hai usko kshetragya kehte hain. Iccha se hum baddh jeev samajh sakte hain ki hum is sharir se alag hain. Ek chota sa udharan aur de sakte hain; *aap kehte hain mera kaan, mera nak, mera aankh, aap ye bahi kehte mai aankh, mai kaan, iska matlab ki apka kaan apse alag hai. To iska matlab hua ki apka sharir atma se alag hai. Bhagavad*-gītā ke doosre adhyay ka tehravan slok " dehino asmin yatha dehi kaumaram yauvanam zara, tatha dehantram prapatir dhiras tatra na muhyati " jis tarah se dehi is deh me baitha hua hai. Bacche se javaan hota hai phir boodha isi tarah se mrtyu ke samay atma ek sharir ko chod ke doosre sharir me chali jati hai. (This is the difference of one who knows the work of the body and one who actually recognises the existence of the soul, he is known as knower of the field. By our desire, we conditioned souls can understand that we are different from the body. One more example we can give; *you say my ear, my nose, my eyes. You don't say I eyes, I nose, I hand. This means that your eyes are different from you. So this means that your body is sepearte from the soul. In the 13 verse of the 2 chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā " dehino asmin yatha dehi kaumaram yauvanam zara, tatha dehantram prapatir dhiras tatra na muhyati ". Like how the resident is sitting inside the body, from child to youth to old man, the soul leaves the body and enters into another body.) *To jo dhir log hain, gyani log hain, woh ye soch kar dukh nahi karte, log rote hain 'are wo mar gaya'. Kaun mar gaya jisko aap apna samjhte the wo to leta hua hai aur cheez chali gayi uska naash nahi hota hai. Bhagavad*-gītā me adhyay do me, jo ki Gītā ka sar hai usme ye samajhaya gaya hai. Is prakar se jab vyakti ye janta hai uska sharir haemsha badal raha hai wo ye samajhta hai wo kshetragy hai. Kabhi-kabhi humlog samajhte hain ke hum bahut kush hain, main pagal hoon, main aurat hoon, mai kutta hoon, billi hoon to ye main jo hai wo kshetragya hai, kutta billi aurat ye sab sharir aur mai jo atma, jo bhagavan ka ansh hai usko humlog kshetragya kehte hain. (So those who are 'dhira', educated, they are not sad when they think about this. People cry, "Oh, that person died." Who died? The one who you considered your own is lying here and the one that left the body is not perishable. In Bhagavad-gītā in chapter 2, which is the essence of the Gītā , this has been explained. In this way when a peprson knows that his body is ever—changing, he is called a knower of the field. Sometimes we feel that we are very happy, I'm mad, I'm woman, I'm dog, I'm cat—so I'm only knower of the field. The dog, cat—others are all bodies and I'm the soul, part and parcel of God, is the knower of the field.) Prabhupāda: *Kṛṣṇa has spoken about the kṣetrajña . Kṣetrajña means the knower of the body, as He has already explained that, "I know that this is my finger." I never say: "I finger." So this body is kṣetrajña , the field of activities, and the soul is the proprietor or worker within the body. That is called kṣetrajña . This is already explained. He tried to explain . . . because there are many ladies, so he tried to explain in Hindi. So here in the next verse Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi : "I am also kṣetrajña . I am also one of the knower of the body." So what is the difference between the one kṣetrajña already explained, the soul, and this kṣetrajña , Kṛṣṇa? What is the difference between the two? That is explained here. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am also kṣetrajña ." Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata : "But the distinction is that the individual soul is situated in that particular body, but I am situated in every body, all-pervading." Sometimes they commit mistake that ātmā and Paramātmā, they are the same, but that is not the fact. Here Kṛṣṇa explains very distinctly that, "I am also ātmā , but I am Paramātmā." That is the distinction between God and us. *When Arjuna understood Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Paraṁ brahma. They are anxious to realize Brahman, that I . . . ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi does not mean that, "I am Paraṁ Brahman." I am individual part and parcel of Brahman. Similarly, ātmā , Paramātmā; īśvara , Parameśvara. We should understand this distinction between ātmā , Paramātmā; *Brahman, Para*-brahman; īśvara , Parameśvara. So in the Vedic literature it is said, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1). Īśvara. Īśvara means controller. Every one of us, we are controller, either I control over my family or in my office or in my country. In this way everyone is a controller. I may be a controller. Not may be; in my limited jurisdiction I am also controller. You are also controller. So I may be a little greater controller, you may be smaller controller and somebody may be greater than me. So in this way, if you study controllers, different types of controller, you'll find there is junior and senior. The same person is senior controller in the family, but in the office he's the junior controller. The same person is junior and senior at the same time. Somewhere he is junior, somewhere he is senior. In this way, if you study all different types of controller, you'll see there is duality of controls. But when you approach somebody that He's simply controller—He's not by controlled by others—that is Kṛṣṇa. This is analytical study of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. *So they have studied, all these Vedic scholars, especially Lord Brahmā. This is the statement of Lord Brahmā. Not only Lord Brahmā—Vyāsadeva, Nārada and recently big, big ācāryas , Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, even Śaṅkarācārya, and latest, five hundred years ago, Lord Caitanya—everyone has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme controller. And in the dictionary you'll find what is religion. Religion means to accept a supreme controller. That is religion. So in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam also it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Dharma means the controlling laws given by God. That is called dharma . So real dharma . . . from all Vedic scriptures, from the version of all authorities, it is confirmed that īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1): "Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Every religion has conception of God, but no religious system in this world has got any clear conception of God. But in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is not actually a so*-called religious movement, but it is an educational movement to give information to the human society about God that, "Here is God." You are searching after God, and somebody, in disappointment, saying that, "God is dead." God is neither dead, nor it is fictitious, but it is factual, and here is this God, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). This is the verdict of the Vedic literature. There are may be many other gods. They are expansion of the original Personality of Godhead. If anyone is interested to study the science of God, you'll find it in the Vedic literature, how Kṛṣṇa expands by His plenary portion in different names of God. It is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (BS 5.33). That Absolute Truth is advaita , without any duality; acyuta , infallible. Advaita, acyuta, anādi . Everything has got its beginning, anything you . . . that is our material conception, because we have got the experience—anything we take, it has got a beginning. But Kṛṣṇa, He is described, advaita, acyuta, anādi: "He has no beginning." And in another place it is also said: Kāraṇam is the beginning. So just like my father is the cause of my personality; father, his father is the cause of his personality; *in this way you try to find out the cause of the cause. You'll find Kṛṣṇa as the cause of all causes. Sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam . Everything must be caused by something. Cause and effect. So the śāstra gives the verdict that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes. *So this institution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we have started. Now we have opened this center. I am very glad that you are coming here, but study the science of Kṛṣṇa. Don't remain blind. The science of Kṛṣṇa means science of God. The human life is meant for understanding the science of God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This is the Vedānta*-sūtra . "This human form of life is meant for inquiring about the Absolute Truth—Brahman." That Brahman, Para-brahman, is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, when Arjuna studied Bhagavad-gītā , his conclusion was . . . he addressed immediately, Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Bhavān: "Yourself . . ." So don't waste your time even by a minute. Try to understand the science of Kṛṣṇa. That is the only business. Other business, they are subsidiary. They are not very important business. Why Kṛṣṇa understanding is important business? Because it will give you liberation from this material conditional life. We are foolishly thinking we are very independent, we can do whatever we like. But that is not the fact. The fact is we are completely dependent on the laws of material nature. Even if you defy a little bit, immediately you'll be punished. That is the strict laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). *So we do not understand. There is no education throughout the whole world how we are being controlled by the material nature and why we are being controlled. Why we are put into this position of being controlled? These questions should be raised. That is human life. Otherwise it is animal life. The cats and dogs, they cannot inquire, "Why I am being controlled?" But they agree to be controlled. But human life there is struggle. They are called struggle for existence. They are trying to overcome the control of material nature by so*-called scientific method, but that is not the way. You cannot do that. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. Just like their so-called scientific way they are trying to go to the moon planet or Mars planet. Why they are trying to go? Because they are controlled. They have got their flying machine. They can to go any planet, but they cannot, because they are being controlled. So we should come to our senses that we cannot bring the laws of material nature under our control. We are already under the control of the laws of material nature, and that is our conditional life. Actually, we require freedom from conditional life, but that freedom can be achieved when we surrender to Kṛṣṇa. If you actually want to be . . . not to be controlled by the laws of material nature, that you can do. That is possible. And that is possible simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa. *So we are presenting this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not a manufactured thing. We are quoting from Bhagavad*-gītā the same thing. We are not presenting something manufactured. There is no need, because things in perfection is already there in the Bhagavad-gītā . There is no need of manufacturing by fools and rascals. There is no need. Everything is there in perfection. Simply we have to accept it and apply it in practical life. Then our life will be successful. Simply we have to understand it. Kṛṣṇa says that janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). Simply to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is . . . then jānāti tattvataḥ , anyone who is able to understand Kṛṣṇa in truth, then what is the result? The result is tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9): "Such person, after giving up this body, he does not accept another material body." At the present moment we are giving up one material body and accepting another material body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). This is our conditional life, but we are kept in such dense darkness of knowledge that we are thinking that, "We are free. We can do whatever we like." This is very dangerous civilization—no knowledge of the spiritual life, no knowledge how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another, no knowledge what is the future, no knowledge what is the goal of life. Simply like cats and dogs you dance, eat, drink, be merry and die, that's all. This is not good life. You must be very serious, especially those who are Indians. They should take it very seriously. Because this Kṛṣṇa culture, Bhagavad-gītā , was spoken in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra in India, and if we Indians, we do not take full advantage of this great transcendental knowledge, then you are committing suicide. *So my request is, all the Indians who are here in this foreign country, keep your own original culture. Don't forget. Don't be bewildered. Be in your position. Try to under . . . it is very easy. Bhagavad*-gītā is not at all difficult to understand, and we have tried to explain as easy as possible, not that we have deviated from the original verse, just like others do it. We do not do that; *there is no need. That is another blunder. We keep Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and we still try to explain it. So I am very glad that you are all coming regularly, but take it. At least one day, this Sunday, you devote, seriously studying Bhagavad-gītā , and discuss amongst you whenever there is any doubt. There cannot be any doubt. The Bhagavad-gītā verses are so plainly explained, and . . . just like here is one verse we are trying to read, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "My dear Arjuna . . ." Arjuna is addressed as Bhārata. Because he belongs to the dynasty of Bharata, sometimes he's addressed as Bhārata. So, very easy that, "I am also one of the souls. There are two souls. One, you are, and another, I am. So what is the difference between you and Me? That you know simply everything—not everything, but to some extent—about your body, but I know everything of everyone's body." That is the difference. I know the pleasure and pains of my body, you know the pleasure and pains of your body, but Kṛṣṇa knows the pleasure and pains of your body and pleasure and pains of my body. That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and ourself. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is situated . . . Kṛṣṇa is not stereotyped in one place. Kṛṣṇa, He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana: goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ (BS 5.37). That is Kṛṣṇa. I am sitting here; *you are sitting here. I am not in my apartment, but Kṛṣṇa, although He is sitting in this temple, He is present everywhere: aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35). *In this way we have to study Kṛṣṇa very scientifically, and the books are there, we have tried to explain as far as possible. Take advantage of this institution. Don't waste a moment of your life. Take it very seriously. Āyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi na labhyaḥ svarṇa*-koṭibhiḥ (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). This seriousness . . . especially those who are educated, they should take serious consideration of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Try to understand each and every verse of Bhagavad-gītā , especially, and if possible Bhāgavatam . There are so many books. We have got program to publish at least eighty-four books like this, four hundred pages each. So we have already published fifty-four books. So if you want to understand Kṛṣṇa through science and philosophy, read these books. Otherwise—very easy method—come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. There is no difficulty. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya! (end) (at the house of Ksirodakasayi dasa) (kīrtana in background) *Jayatīrtha: . . . was sitting previously, which was being worshiped, Sanātana was being worshiped at this place. So he sat down because he was thinking that he was good as standing up, same as standing up. So one Vaiṣṇava priest who was taking care of the place, he threw him out. So in the book they complained that the Vaiṣṇavas are considered to be very narrow*-minded. (laughter) Now I can understand . . . Prabhupāda: Here. He was kicked out. Jayatīrtha: Yes, the boy threw him out. So they were complaining about this. Prabhupāda: Just see. How bogus he was. No, when I go to met in . . . (indistinct) . . . that, in the beginning that Prabhavananda, the rascal said that, "RamaKṛṣṇa was formerly Caitanya Mahāprabhu." He began like that. Then I could understand, "What a rascal he is, and I have to waste my time." So I did not answer anything. I said: "Thank you very much for your meeting," and I went out. This rascal's first proposal was that RamaKṛṣṇa Thakur was formerly Caitanya. This is the beginning. He was so rascal. (pause) Prabhupāda: This is framework house. Hare Kṛṣṇa. If some of the svāmīs may have said, they say that, "Why you call us rascal and so many things?" So you say that, "We are not calling you; Kṛṣṇa says. So we are pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have to repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's it. We cannot help it. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ ( BG 7.15). So you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore you must be mūḍha ." Kṣīrodakaśāyī: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Jayatīrtha: The best thing Kṛṣṇa has to say about them is that they are abuddhayaḥ . The best thing Kṛṣṇa says about them is they are unintelligent. Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ (BG 7.24). *Prabhupāda: Abuddhayaḥ , no intelligence. And similarly, those who are demigod*-worshiper, they have been described naṣṭa-buddhayaḥ , "Lost of intelligence." These are statements in the Bhagavad-gītā . We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness; we have to say. How we can avoid this? It may be displeasing to you, but we are not sorry. (laughter) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We are not sorry. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say the other party. But we have to say it. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No, they all very pleased. They are all very pleased there. I say, when you can get off and Prabhupāda again comes, take prasādam , you can get off on that. They are waiting, but they will not take prasāda unless Prabhupāda's . . . they are about . . . over about two hundred people now. This temple here, all garden full. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they liked. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, they liked very much. Prabhupāda: But I spoke very strong thing against RamaKṛṣṇa. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Because you spoke the truth, facts. Prabhupāda: And I challenged that, "Any question? Please come." Indian man: (indistinct) . . . couldn't say anything. Prabhupāda: Dr. Kapoor says that . . . Indian man: O.B.L. Kapoor? Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, yes. That, "Bhaktivedanta Swami speaks as strongly as Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī was speaking." You know that? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Oh, yes. I met so many times. I understand also. Prabhupāda: He said that. Jayatīrtha: Very nice compliment. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: He also said that, "Śrīla Prabhupāda is only one who has really taken the . . . his mission seriously." Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Of course, I don't say myself. That will not look good. But there is other . . . (indistinct conversation in background) They, all my Godbrothers, realize it. "But he is the only representative." Somebody, they frankly admit, and somebody do not. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I met . . . some, they are starting coming here to see how the things are. (laughs) They all came. Still they are coming. I think . . . somebody said that Bon Mahārāja came. Prabhupāda: He came here? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Pardon? Not here. I mean in London. Not here. I never invite anybody, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, no. London he came? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, I heard. I don't know. Somebody was telling. And then so many svāmīs , so many, from Vṛndāvana they are coming. Because many, many guests come, Prabhupāda, in the week or during the day. They tell me that "Would you like to go? Some svāmī has come, some . . ." "Our svāmī is already here." (laughs) Prabhupāda: That's it. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: They invite some invitation. They have had a big international religious conference in Millford a few weeks back, and all the professors, universities and big, big shark . . . I have got not got the English . . . Prabhupāda: Mūḍhas . Kṣīrodakaśāyī: (laughs) Mūḍhas , yes. So I understand . . . some of the friends he said it was a big feast and all that, but there was nothing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They never talk about the Lord. They were simply arguing each other, "I think so." (laughs) Prabhupāda: This is their business. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Big, big professor from the university, from Glasgow, so many professors. Big pamphlet came to me. They all send it . . . at least, they send it to this place here. I know from where they get the address or the name all that, and they send, many, many of these new societies. Jayatīrtha: You're becoming famous. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: (laughs) No, no. Guru Mahārāja becomes. Prabhupāda: Keep our standard. Then everyone will give assistance. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We got many times, many very distinguished . . . one time that church vicar has come here to see how things are. Chinese people came, Englishmen. One of the lady, not very far from here, she came one morning, said: "My brother is in the hospital, and he is very sick. I know you are a pious people. Can you pray for him?" And "You never . . . you pray the Lord. You come here. Lord is here." And . . . Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not very far from here. Said: "We hear the noise in the morning, and we have got these feelings that these are very good thing." An English lady. Jayatīrtha: Oh, this was an English person who came. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: English, yes. She is feeling in the heart. Prabhupāda: To jo wo laundry ka business tha. So that laundry business that was there.) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Poocha tha Prabhupad. (I enquired Prabhupāda.) Prabhupāda: Wo makan me abhi koi hai? (Does anyone live in that house?) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Wo laundry ka dekhbal karta hai. (He looks after the laundry.) Prabhupāda: Wo laundry ka businesss achha chal raha hai. (The laundry business is doing well.) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: . . . bus bhagvan ki seva ho jaye to sab accha hai nahi to kuch accha nahi hai. Apna to yehi kaam hai ki. (If we are able to serve the Lord then everything is good, otherwise nothing is good. That is our work if we can do it.) By your grace, Kṛṣṇa is here, and we have no intention to come from there. I had intention that let the children go back home. And we fight, all this stuff. I say, "All right, we must start to fully educate him." Full education is that he become advanced in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: So I said: "We haven't got any education." Under the law of this country, if they have to remain here, they have to go up to sixteen years to the school. And if they're qualified, then they . . . Prabhupāda: No, education is good, but the association is . . . Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No, they don't have any asso . . . they don't go anywhere. They don't eat anywhere. Even so many invitation comes, either they go to the library or they go to the temple or this place. They have no friends, nothing else. No friends. They don't even take the water anywhere, even to my brother's house. They don't take anywhere. Prabhupāda: Your brother is also here? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, he's here now. And he was not very good terms last eight years with me. But when I established this temple, by your grace, Prabhupāda, he has also realized it now that this is good. And my difference with him was that, "You should give up this nonsense of drinking this, all these things." That was only . . . nothing else, about money or anything. I say, "I cannot eat at your place unless you give up these things." I go there, don't eat anything. Prabhupāda: Still, he drinks. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Still he drinks. That is the fact. He doesn't eat meat, of course, but he says . . . he has got business, good business, plenty of money. I am poor materially, but Prabhupāda, my father, spiritual father, is so rich that I am getting money every day. Materially, I am poor, but I am so richer, you are giving so treasure . . . you see in our library there, we have so many nice library of each and every of your book downstairs, and more we read, we say, well plenty money is coming. (break) . . . from the temple. Life Member comes there. We sell the Gujarati magazine. I brought all magazines from Gujarati. Now second issue has not come. The same problem. I don't . . . Prabhupāda: This is . . . have printed. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: But whatever I brought, it went within two, three weeks. Prabhupāda: So Yaśomatīnandana? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Ha uske letter aya hai ki: (Yes, his letter has come that:) "The next issue is in the press, and I'll soon send." And Gopāla dāsa I also written. Because there are many Gujaratis here, and they are becoming Life Members. They have been very much in the temple. Anybody comes here, we send out to the Manor. I say: "Here Kṛṣṇa is . . . here we are. Here we have got everything by Kṛṣṇa's grace, and all the help should go to this center." Prabhupāda: You are preparing something of bitter melon? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Bitter? You mean the . . . Prabhupāda: Karelās , yes. *Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Brinjal also. Brinjal . Brinjal I have got. To Prabhupada wo Bhagavad*-gītā ka ye hai Gopal das ne kaha ki translation karo to 2 to 4 chapter humne kiya hai . . . karte raho. waise accha hai 3 to 4 aadmi ko . . . aisa kiya hai to jo bhi hain devotee hain, professional hain ya educated hain. (So Prabhupada, the Bhagavad-gītā Gopal dasa told me to translate, so I translated 2 to 4 chapters . . . keep doing . . . but it is nice 3 to 4 people . . . we have done like this. So whatever it is they are devotees, they are professionals or they are educated.) (break) Prabhupāda: Theek hai sab Vaikunth chale jayenge. (All right, everyone will go to the Vaikuntha planets.) *Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Hindi me Bhagavad*-gītā chapne chahiye bahut jaldi. (The Bhagavad-gītā should be printed in Hindi as soon as possible.) Harikeśa: How much is left? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No, no, we just starting it. Prabhupāda approved that, starting, starting with two chapters three times. *Prabhupāda: No, you can do one thing. Part by part, you publish in the Bhāgavata*-darśana so that he can . . . everyone can see how it is. Then it will be good. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Oh, yes. No, I showed to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu when he came here. He also came here when he came to London. He came one day here, so I showed all these and I read little bit. Prabhupāda: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa himself is not very expert. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No. So he said that, "Śrīla Prabhupāda is coming now," so if you get a chance . . . Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that whatever you have written, let it be published in the . . . Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, I understand Prabhupāda: . . . so that everyone can see. Then we can understand. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I see. So I will send to India chapter by chapter, and they can publish . . . *Prabhupāda: With a letter that, "Prabhupāda says like this, that you print in the Hindi edition of Bhāgavata*-darśana so that everyone will see, and they will judge how it is done nicely." Harikeśa: Should I make this? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I'll send the first chapter complete. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Duplicate it and keep one copy with me here and one copy send off, and they can publish in the Back to Godhead here. Prabhupāda: The difficulty is that in India, in different parts of India different standard. Somebody says: "This standard is good", somebody says: "This standard is good." Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Well, we are not worried about the criticism. Prabhupāda: Eh? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We are not worried about the criticism, anybody say. What you say, we'll take that one line, the guideline. Prabhupāda: No, I am not authority in Hindi, but this Hindi, different parts of India, a different standard. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, that's true. That is why I had not depend on myself. It going there from the four people different, one after another, and they are qualified Sanskrit and Hindi scholars. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let it be published. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Complete corrections also. It's not going by . . . Prabhupāda: So you can show me some samples which you have completed. Yes, you can show me some. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: (Indian man enters and speaks with Kṣīrodakaśāyī) Śrīla Prabhupāda, devotees are asking can you take prasāda and go to Manor? There's some press coming, but without you they're . . . is it all right? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All right. I will take some time. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Is it all right? Prabhupāda: I ordered . . . Harikeśa: Others, they are also waiting. The Indians, they are . . . Prabhupāda: So let them all take. You can also go down. (break) (Prabhupāda moves outside) Hari-śauri: If you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Harikeśa: Now it's recording. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . word by word. Kīrtimā: And translate into English. Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to do it. Give him the book. Simply book. Why you are taking this? Here? Yes. *Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Ye Bhagavad*-gītā ka tervan adhyay hai prakriti aur anand bhogta ka chetna. (This is the 13th chapter of Bhagavad-gītā , "Nature, the Enjoyer and Consciousness".) Uske pehle ye do slok hain. (There are two verses before that.) Indian man (2): Should I read the translation in Hindi? Prabhupāda: Yes, so that . . . Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Arjuna said: O my dear Kṛṣṇa, I wish to know about prakṛti [nature], puruṣa [the enjoyer], and the field and the knower of the field, and of knowledge and the object of knowledge. The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: This body, O son of Kuntī, is called the field, and one who knows this body is called the knower of the field. Prabhupāda: Thoda explain karo. (Explain a little more.) *Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Arjun jo hai vo bhagavan sri Kṛṣṇa se jijnasa kar rahe hain prakriti ke vishay mein. Hum log sab jante hain ke prakriti kya hai. aap inse poochiye koi kehta hai ki supreme nature hai magar vo ye nahi janta ki supreme nature kiska nature hai. Aap jante hain ki apka prakriti mai prakriti se alag hai. Jahan prakriti hai waha kehte hain supreme nature wo sabse badi cheez hai. To humlog ko poochna chahiye kiska nature, kiski prakriti. Bhagavad*-gītā me phir kehte hain " mayadhyaksena prakritih suyate sa-caracaram " mere nirdeshan me ye prakriti jo hai karya kar rahi hai. To jaha prakriti hai vahan purush bhi hai. (Arjuna is enquiring from Kṛṣṇa about nature. We all know what is material. You ask them, some say it is supreme nature but they don’t know whom this supreme nature belongs to. You know that . . . nature is different from your nature. Where there is nature, it is said that supreme nature is the biggest asset. So we must ask whose nature.) Bhagavan Sri Kṛṣṇa jo hai vo param purush. Is tarah se jo apne sharir ko janta hai sharir ko shetra kaha gaya hai aur sharir ke andar jo atma hai use kshetragnya mana gaya hai. To Arjun jo hai vo bhagavan se jijnasa kar rahe hain ki prakriti kise kehte hain, purush kaun hai ye kshetra kya cheez hai aur kshetragnya kyunki hamare sri Kṛṣṇa bhavanamrit andolan ka moolbhoot siddhant ye hai ki humlog ye sharir nahi hain. Aap coat kameez pehne hue hain hum apse baat kar rahe hain apke kameez ya coat ko hum nahi dekhte usi tarah humlog ka ye jo sri Kṛṣṇa bhavanamrit ka andolan hai humlog ye kehte hain ki sab jeev, manushya hi nahi sab jeev bhagavan ke ansh hain kyunki unme atma hai. Bhagavan ka ek naam paramatma kaha jata hai, param atma vo sab ke atma hain aur humlog unke chote se ansh hain. Is tarah se hum sab chahe vo american ho ya african ho chahe bhartiya ho chahe german ho koi bhi ho usko hum ye prachar karte hain ki tum ye sharir nahi ho bhagavan ke ansh ho bhagavan ke das ho bhagvan ke sevak ho aur tumhara ye kartavya hai ki tum bhagavan ki seva karo. *(In Bhagavad*-gītā it is said " Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥsūyate sa-carācaram ", this nature is working under my direction, so where there is nature there is enjoyer also. Bhagavan Sri Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer. In this way one who knows his body, the body is called a field and the soul, which is inside the body is called the knower of the field. So Arjuna is enquiring from Sri Kṛṣṇa that, "What is nature? Who is enjoyer? What is this field and knower of the field?" Because the basic philosophy of our Kṛṣṇa Consciousness movement is, "We are not this body". You are wearing this coat-shirt and I am talking to you but I am not looking at your dress. Just like that, this Kṛṣṇa Consciousness movement that we have—that all entities, not only humans. All living entities are part and parcel of the Lord because everyone has a soul. One of the names of God is Paramātmā param ātmā—He is seated in everyone’s heart as Paramātmā and we are his tiny parts. In this way all of us—whether he is American, African, Indian, German—whoever it is, we preach to them that, "You are not this body, you are part of God, his servant, his follower and it is your duty that you serve God.") *Haat jo hai wo apke sharir ka ang hai, yadi haat khush hona chahta hai to jab vo bhojan utha ke moo me dalega aur pet me jab bhojan pahunchega to haat apne*-aap khush ho jayega kyunki haat jo hai wo sharir ka hissa hai. To humlog jo hain bhagavan ka hissa hain yadi hum bhagavan ka seva karenge apne-aap hum khush ho jayenge nahi to haat bine pet me bhojan diye khush hona chahta hoon khush nahi ho payega chahe gulab-jamoon rakha ho haat use choota rahe magar haat jab tak moo me nahi dalega tab tak wo khush nahi hoga. Is tarah humlog jo jeev-matr hain jab tak bhagavan ke seva nahi karenge khush nahi ho sakte. Ye machli hai usko aap pani se nikal dijiye. (This hand is part of your body and if your hand wants to be happy. Then when he picks up food and puts it in his mouth, and when the food reaches the stomach, then the hand becomes happy automatically because the hand is part of the body. Similarly we are part of God, and if we serve Him then automatically we become happy. Without offering food to the stomach, the hand will not be happy. If sweet meat balls are kept in front of you, unless you take if and put it into your mouth, the hand will not be happy—we will not be happy. Similarly, we who are living entities — unless we offer service to the Lord, we will not be happy. This fish, if you remove it from the water, it will not be happy.) *Aur chahe bahut bade bhavan me rakh dijiye, usko TV, sofa*-set sab de dijiye, machli mar jayegi pani se bahar nikalte hi. Wohi dasha hamari hai, humlog tadap rahe hain kyunki bhagavan ko bhool gaye hain. To bhagavan ko yaad karne ke liye phir se vapas janm me chale jayenge to khush ho jayenge. (Whether you keep it in a big mansion, give it a TV, give a sofa — give everything — the fish will die as soon as you take it out of water. Similarly, in our condition we are restless because we have forgotten God. So to remember God, we should again take birth — then we will be happy.) Jab arjun ne in sab vishayon ke bare me Sri Kṛṣṇa se poocha, to bhagavan ne kaha ki is sharir ko hum kshetra kehte hain aur jo is sharir ko janta hai use kshetrgna ya knower of the field kaha jata hai. Ye sharir jo hai, ye badh atma jo humlog hain unke liye atma kriya kshetra hai. Atma jaroor hai hum me par atma sharir ke madhyam se kaam karti hai. Atma jab sharir se chali jati hai to hai to hai wohi sharir haat na dekh sakta hai, na aap naak se soongh sakte hain, usi sharir ko jala diya jata hai. Aap jinda sharir ko jalaiye koi soch bhi nahi sakta, lekin atma chali jati hai. To atma jab tak thi uske madhyam se hum dekh rahe hain, bol rahe hain, sun rahe hain. (And then Arjuna enquired about all this from Sri Kṛṣṇa, then God said that we call this body the field. The one who knows this body is called the knower of the field. We have this body, we are conditioned souls. For them the soul is the field of action. We definitely have a soul, but it is working through the medium of this body. When the soul leaves the body then with the same body the hand cannot be seen, the eyes cannot see, the nose cannot smell and we burn the same body. Nobody can think of burning a live body, but when the soul leaves the body — unless the soul was there in the body we could see, speak or hear.) Sri Kṛṣṇa samjha rahe hain ki ye sharir jo hai wo karya kshetra hai, atma to mukhya cheez hai, atma sharir ke madhyam se karya karti hai. Jo humlog ye badh jeev hain . . . (Sri Kṛṣṇa is explaining this body is a field of action, the soul is an important fact — the soul does the work through the body. We are conditioned souls . . .) Prabhupāda: Jaise ye chashma hai ye chashma dekhta nahi aankh dekhta hai chashma ka through se. Agar koi kehta hai ki chashma dekhta hai to vo murkh hai. chashma nahi dekhta hai. Usi prakar atma jo hai use khestrgna kaha jata hai. Jo kshetragna asal cheez hai, yeh kshetra, sharir asal cheez nahi hai, ye madhyam hai. jaise udharan diya gaya to chashma se dekhte hain, chashma nahi dekhta hai, usko samajhna chahiye. (Like these specks are there but the specks do not see, the eyes see through the specks. If someone says that the specks see, then he is a fool. The specks do not see. Similarly, the soul is called the knower of the field — this is the real fact but the body is not real. It is a medium, the example is given that the specks do not see, the eyes see through specks — we must understand this.) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: To is tarah se hum jo baddh jeev jo hai maya ke chakkar me pade hain aur humlog bhautik prakriti ke swami banane ki koshish kar rahe hain. Bhagvan koi nahi hai, hum hain, hum khush ho jaye. Hum apni shakti ke anusar is prakriti pe kabja karne ki koshish karte hain, adhikar jamane ki koshish karte hain chahe wo aadmi bada ho, chota ho, janwar ho sab yahi sochte hain ki main iska malik hoon. (So like this, we who are conditioned souls, we are under the spell of maya . We are trying to lord it over nature, "There is no God, we are God, we must be happy. According to our strength, we try to capture nature, establish our authority over nature." Whether he is a big or small man or animal — everyone thinks that I am the owner of this nature.) Chota sa chuha hai apne samarth ke anusar chura layega, aadmi bada hai wo badi chori karta hai ye sab chori kar rahe hain bhagvan ka bina bhagvan ko malik samjhe. Isopanishad me ek sloka aata hai . . . (Even a small rat, according to its strength, steals something from somewhere—a big man steals big things. Everyone is stealing from God without accepting God as the owner. In the Sri Isopanisad , there is a verse . . .) Prabhupāda: Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Ye bhagavan jo hai unka hi sab kuch hai. To jitna apko jaroorat hai aap le lijiye aur baki doosro ke upayog ke liye chod de. Srila Prabhupad udharan dete hain ki ek bag chawal ka ya gehoon ka raaste me pada ho ek chidiya ayegi do dane kha legi aur chali jayegi. Aadmi ayega pehle pet bhar khayega phir jhola uthakar apne ghar me rakh lega. To isi ke karan pure sansar me log jo kasht paa rahe hain khane ki kami hai, anaz ki kami hai, is liye ki anaz hai par usko log chura rahe hain. Ye hamari sampatti hai bina bhagvan ko jane. To hamara jo sharir hai car ka kriya kshetra hai aur sharir kya hai wo indriyon se bana hua hai. (This God everything belongs to Him. So how much you want you take and leave the rest for the benefit of others. Srila Prabhupāda gives an example that a bag of rice or wheat is lying on the street. One bird comes and eats a few grains and flies away but a man comes and first fills his belly and then carries the bag of wheat home. So as a result people are suffering in this world, shortage of food grains, food. Not because food is not there but people are stealing thinking this belongs to me wihtout knowing god. So our body is action field of car and what is body, it is made up of senses.) *Humlog ki panch gyanendriya hoti hai aur paanch karmendiya hoti hai aur ek man aur ahankar. Isliye humlog bhagvan ki bhakti kyunki humlog maya me hain, apne sharir se shoru kar sakte hain. Abhi hum log apna indriya bhog, kewal apne sukh ke liye karya karna chahte hain. shari wohi hai, indriya wohi, jaise aankh, aap aankh se cinema dekh sakte hain aur aap aankh se bhagvan ki murti Sri Radha*-Gokulanada yahan par hain unke darshan kar sakte hain. (We have 5 knowledge-acquiring senses and 5 working senses and one mind and ego. That is why we cannot do devotion to the Lord because we are in illusion. We can start devotion with our body. Now we want to work only for sense gratification, only for our pleasure. The body is the same, the senses are the same. Like our eyes, we can watch movies with our eyes or see the Deities of Sri Radha-Gokulananda which are here, have His darshan .) Indriya wohi hain yadi aap unko bhagavan ke darshan me lagate hain to bhakti ho jati hai nahi to vishay bhog hai. Usme apko kewal . . . sabhi log aajkal bajaye aatma ko samajhne ke apne sharir ko hi khud mante hain. Agar poochiye aap kaun hain, hum bhartiya hain, pacchees saal ke hain, tees saal ke hain, ye sharir, main kaun hoon. aap jante hain apka sharir chota sa tha, main chota tha ab main bada ho gay, main boodha ho jaoonga, to main wohi hoon, vo chota sharir kahan chala gaya, wo bade sharir me ho gaya, isi tarah se jab aap boodhe ho jate hain to atma wohi rehti hai, atma sharir chod kar ke doosre sharir me chali jati hai. (The senses are the same but if you engage them in the service of the Lord then it becomes devotion otherwise it becomes sense gratification. In it you will . . . everyone nowadays, instead of understanding the soul, think that I am this body. If you ask them, they say I am indian, 25 to 30 years old. Who is there in this body? You know that this body was small—I was young, now I have grown up, now I will become old. So I am the same, where is the small boy, it has grown into a big boy. Similarly when you grow old the soul remains the same. The soul leaves the body and enters another body. *Apka jab kameez purana ho jata hai to aap usko chod kar ke nayi kameez le lete hain. Isi tarah atma ka kabhi naash nahi hota. To wo vyakti jo apne ko sharir na mane par atma mane use kshetragnya kehte he knower of the field. Ye ab koi bahut mushkil nahi hai atma me aur sharir me antar samajhna. Srila Prabhupad ne wohi udharan diya jo maine kuch der pehle kaha, humlog bacche the boodha ho gaya, sharir badal raha hai 24 ghante. Vigyan ke anusar bhi apke sharir me kriyayen*-pratikriyayen ho rahin hain, 24 ghante apka sharir badal raha hai, har shan, har pratipal magar atma apki wohi hai. sharir me baithi hui atma jo ki ek vyakti hai wo ek hai, deh badal raha hai. (When your shirt becomes old then you give it up and buy a new shirt. Similarly the soul is never destroyed. So that person who does not think that he is this body but is spirit soul, is called knower of the field. So now it is not difficult to understand the difference between body and soul. Srila Prabhupāda has given the same example which i mentioned before. We were children, then became old. The body is continuously undergoing changes every 24 hours. According to science also, action—reactions are going on in your body, in 24 hours your body is changing, every minute, every second but sould is the same, the soul inside the body which is our identity, body is changing. Yehi antar hai jo deh ke karya ko janta hai aur jo vastvik roop se atma ka Swaroop pehchanta hai usko kshetragya kehte hain. Iccha se hum baddh jeev samajh sakte hain ki hum is sharir se alag hain. Ek chota sa udharan aur de sakte hain; *aap kehte hain mera kaan, mera nak, mera aankh, aap ye bahi kehte mai aankh, mai kaan, iska matlab ki apka kaan apse alag hai. To iska matlab hua ki apka sharir atma se alag hai. Bhagavad*-gītā ke doosre adhyay ka tehravan slok " dehino asmin yatha dehi kaumaram yauvanam zara, tatha dehantram prapatir dhiras tatra na muhyati " jis tarah se dehi is deh me baitha hua hai. Bacche se javaan hota hai phir boodha isi tarah se mrtyu ke samay atma ek sharir ko chod ke doosre sharir me chali jati hai. (This is the difference of one who knows the work of the body and one who actually recognises the existence of the soul, he is known as knower of the field. By our desire, we conditioned souls can understand that we are different from the body. One more example we can give; *you say my ear, my nose, my eyes. You don't say I eyes, I nose, I hand. This means that your eyes are different from you. So this means that your body is sepearte from the soul. In the 13 verse of the 2 chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā " dehino asmin yatha dehi kaumaram yauvanam zara, tatha dehantram prapatir dhiras tatra na muhyati ". Like how the resident is sitting inside the body, from child to youth to old man, the soul leaves the body and enters into another body.) *To jo dhir log hain, gyani log hain, woh ye soch kar dukh nahi karte, log rote hain 'are wo mar gaya'. Kaun mar gaya jisko aap apna samjhte the wo to leta hua hai aur cheez chali gayi uska naash nahi hota hai. Bhagavad*-gītā me adhyay do me, jo ki Gītā ka sar hai usme ye samajhaya gaya hai. Is prakar se jab vyakti ye janta hai uska sharir haemsha badal raha hai wo ye samajhta hai wo kshetragy hai. Kabhi-kabhi humlog samajhte hain ke hum bahut kush hain, main pagal hoon, main aurat hoon, mai kutta hoon, billi hoon to ye main jo hai wo kshetragya hai, kutta billi aurat ye sab sharir aur mai jo atma, jo bhagavan ka ansh hai usko humlog kshetragya kehte hain. (So those who are 'dhira', educated, they are not sad when they think about this. People cry, "Oh, that person died." Who died? The one who you considered your own is lying here and the one that left the body is not perishable. In Bhagavad-gītā in chapter 2, which is the essence of the Gītā , this has been explained. In this way when a peprson knows that his body is ever—changing, he is called a knower of the field. Sometimes we feel that we are very happy, I'm mad, I'm woman, I'm dog, I'm cat—so I'm only knower of the field. The dog, cat—others are all bodies and I'm the soul, part and parcel of God, is the knower of the field.) Prabhupāda: *Kṛṣṇa has spoken about the kṣetrajña . Kṣetrajña means the knower of the body, as He has already explained that, "I know that this is my finger." I never say: "I finger." So this body is kṣetrajña , the field of activities, and the soul is the proprietor or worker within the body. That is called kṣetrajña . This is already explained. He tried to explain . . . because there are many ladies, so he tried to explain in Hindi. So here in the next verse Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi : "I am also kṣetrajña . I am also one of the knower of the body." So what is the difference between the one kṣetrajña already explained, the soul, and this kṣetrajña , Kṛṣṇa? What is the difference between the two? That is explained here. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am also kṣetrajña ." Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata : "But the distinction is that the individual soul is situated in that particular body, but I am situated in every body, all-pervading." Sometimes they commit mistake that ātmā and Paramātmā, they are the same, but that is not the fact. Here Kṛṣṇa explains very distinctly that, "I am also ātmā , but I am Paramātmā." That is the distinction between God and us. *When Arjuna understood Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Paraṁ brahma. They are anxious to realize Brahman, that I . . . ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi does not mean that, "I am Paraṁ Brahman." I am individual part and parcel of Brahman. Similarly, ātmā , Paramātmā; īśvara , Parameśvara. We should understand this distinction between ātmā , Paramātmā; *Brahman, Para*-brahman; īśvara , Parameśvara. So in the Vedic literature it is said, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1). Īśvara. Īśvara means controller. Every one of us, we are controller, either I control over my family or in my office or in my country. In this way everyone is a controller. I may be a controller. Not may be; in my limited jurisdiction I am also controller. You are also controller. So I may be a little greater controller, you may be smaller controller and somebody may be greater than me. So in this way, if you study controllers, different types of controller, you'll find there is junior and senior. The same person is senior controller in the family, but in the office he's the junior controller. The same person is junior and senior at the same time. Somewhere he is junior, somewhere he is senior. In this way, if you study all different types of controller, you'll see there is duality of controls. But when you approach somebody that He's simply controller—He's not by controlled by others—that is Kṛṣṇa. This is analytical study of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. *So they have studied, all these Vedic scholars, especially Lord Brahmā. This is the statement of Lord Brahmā. Not only Lord Brahmā—Vyāsadeva, Nārada and recently big, big ācāryas , Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, even Śaṅkarācārya, and latest, five hundred years ago, Lord Caitanya—everyone has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme controller. And in the dictionary you'll find what is religion. Religion means to accept a supreme controller. That is religion. So in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam also it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Dharma means the controlling laws given by God. That is called dharma . So real dharma . . . from all Vedic scriptures, from the version of all authorities, it is confirmed that īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1): "Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Every religion has conception of God, but no religious system in this world has got any clear conception of God. But in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is not actually a so*-called religious movement, but it is an educational movement to give information to the human society about God that, "Here is God." You are searching after God, and somebody, in disappointment, saying that, "God is dead." God is neither dead, nor it is fictitious, but it is factual, and here is this God, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). This is the verdict of the Vedic literature. There are may be many other gods. They are expansion of the original Personality of Godhead. If anyone is interested to study the science of God, you'll find it in the Vedic literature, how Kṛṣṇa expands by His plenary portion in different names of God. It is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (BS 5.33). That Absolute Truth is advaita , without any duality; acyuta , infallible. Advaita, acyuta, anādi . Everything has got its beginning, anything you . . . that is our material conception, because we have got the experience—anything we take, it has got a beginning. But Kṛṣṇa, He is described, advaita, acyuta, anādi: "He has no beginning." And in another place it is also said: Kāraṇam is the beginning. So just like my father is the cause of my personality; father, his father is the cause of his personality; *in this way you try to find out the cause of the cause. You'll find Kṛṣṇa as the cause of all causes. Sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam . Everything must be caused by something. Cause and effect. So the śāstra gives the verdict that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes. *So this institution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we have started. Now we have opened this center. I am very glad that you are coming here, but study the science of Kṛṣṇa. Don't remain blind. The science of Kṛṣṇa means science of God. The human life is meant for understanding the science of God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This is the Vedānta*-sūtra . "This human form of life is meant for inquiring about the Absolute Truth—Brahman." That Brahman, Para-brahman, is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, when Arjuna studied Bhagavad-gītā , his conclusion was . . . he addressed immediately, Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Bhavān: "Yourself . . ." So don't waste your time even by a minute. Try to understand the science of Kṛṣṇa. That is the only business. Other business, they are subsidiary. They are not very important business. Why Kṛṣṇa understanding is important business? Because it will give you liberation from this material conditional life. We are foolishly thinking we are very independent, we can do whatever we like. But that is not the fact. The fact is we are completely dependent on the laws of material nature. Even if you defy a little bit, immediately you'll be punished. That is the strict laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). *So we do not understand. There is no education throughout the whole world how we are being controlled by the material nature and why we are being controlled. Why we are put into this position of being controlled? These questions should be raised. That is human life. Otherwise it is animal life. The cats and dogs, they cannot inquire, "Why I am being controlled?" But they agree to be controlled. But human life there is struggle. They are called struggle for existence. They are trying to overcome the control of material nature by so*-called scientific method, but that is not the way. You cannot do that. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. Just like their so-called scientific way they are trying to go to the moon planet or Mars planet. Why they are trying to go? Because they are controlled. They have got their flying machine. They can to go any planet, but they cannot, because they are being controlled. So we should come to our senses that we cannot bring the laws of material nature under our control. We are already under the control of the laws of material nature, and that is our conditional life. Actually, we require freedom from conditional life, but that freedom can be achieved when we surrender to Kṛṣṇa. If you actually want to be . . . not to be controlled by the laws of material nature, that you can do. That is possible. And that is possible simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa. *So we are presenting this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not a manufactured thing. We are quoting from Bhagavad*-gītā the same thing. We are not presenting something manufactured. There is no need, because things in perfection is already there in the Bhagavad-gītā . There is no need of manufacturing by fools and rascals. There is no need. Everything is there in perfection. Simply we have to accept it and apply it in practical life. Then our life will be successful. Simply we have to understand it. Kṛṣṇa says that janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). Simply to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is . . . then jānāti tattvataḥ , anyone who is able to understand Kṛṣṇa in truth, then what is the result? The result is tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9): "Such person, after giving up this body, he does not accept another material body." At the present moment we are giving up one material body and accepting another material body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). This is our conditional life, but we are kept in such dense darkness of knowledge that we are thinking that, "We are free. We can do whatever we like." This is very dangerous civilization—no knowledge of the spiritual life, no knowledge how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another, no knowledge what is the future, no knowledge what is the goal of life. Simply like cats and dogs you dance, eat, drink, be merry and die, that's all. This is not good life. You must be very serious, especially those who are Indians. They should take it very seriously. Because this Kṛṣṇa culture, Bhagavad-gītā , was spoken in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra in India, and if we Indians, we do not take full advantage of this great transcendental knowledge, then you are committing suicide. *So my request is, all the Indians who are here in this foreign country, keep your own original culture. Don't forget. Don't be bewildered. Be in your position. Try to under . . . it is very easy. Bhagavad*-gītā is not at all difficult to understand, and we have tried to explain as easy as possible, not that we have deviated from the original verse, just like others do it. We do not do that; *there is no need. That is another blunder. We keep Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and we still try to explain it. So I am very glad that you are all coming regularly, but take it. At least one day, this Sunday, you devote, seriously studying Bhagavad-gītā , and discuss amongst you whenever there is any doubt. There cannot be any doubt. The Bhagavad-gītā verses are so plainly explained, and . . . just like here is one verse we are trying to read, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "My dear Arjuna . . ." Arjuna is addressed as Bhārata. Because he belongs to the dynasty of Bharata, sometimes he's addressed as Bhārata. So, very easy that, "I am also one of the souls. There are two souls. One, you are, and another, I am. So what is the difference between you and Me? That you know simply everything—not everything, but to some extent—about your body, but I know everything of everyone's body." That is the difference. I know the pleasure and pains of my body, you know the pleasure and pains of your body, but Kṛṣṇa knows the pleasure and pains of your body and pleasure and pains of my body. That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and ourself. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is situated . . . Kṛṣṇa is not stereotyped in one place. Kṛṣṇa, He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana: goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ (BS 5.37). That is Kṛṣṇa. I am sitting here; *you are sitting here. I am not in my apartment, but Kṛṣṇa, although He is sitting in this temple, He is present everywhere: aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35). *In this way we have to study Kṛṣṇa very scientifically, and the books are there, we have tried to explain as far as possible. Take advantage of this institution. Don't waste a moment of your life. Take it very seriously. Āyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi na labhyaḥ svarṇa*-koṭibhiḥ (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). This seriousness . . . especially those who are educated, they should take serious consideration of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Try to understand each and every verse of Bhagavad-gītā , especially, and if possible Bhāgavatam . There are so many books. We have got program to publish at least eighty-four books like this, four hundred pages each. So we have already published fifty-four books. So if you want to understand Kṛṣṇa through science and philosophy, read these books. Otherwise—very easy method—come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. There is no difficulty. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya! (end) (Conversation with George Harrison) George Harrison: How are you feeling? *Prabhupāda: I have old man's disease, cough and cold, so coughing. But still, work is going on, and I shall complete eighty years this month. September, eighty*-one. So now, due to age, it is becoming little difficult. George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Anyway, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. So how are you? George Harrison: Quite good. Prabhupāda: Chanting is going on? George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Thank you. That is our life and soul. Gṛhe vā vanete thāke, 'hā gaurāṅga' bole ḍāke. Wherever you live, it doesn't matter—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is our only support. (aside) So bring food here. Jayatīrtha: We should . . . have the lunch here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bring. George Harrison: All the devotees are looking really good. Prabhupāda: Eh? George Harrison: The devotees are looking great. Strong. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Phalena paricīyate. By the result, one has to study. Yesterday, one devotee's father and mother came, Hari-śauri. She and his father were very pleased to see him healthy, bright. Mukunda: They hadn't seen him for six years. Prabhupāda: Six years, yes. So we are inviting everyone, "Come here. Such a nice house given by George. (laughs) You live here comfortably, eat nicely, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." We don't want any factory work. George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Simply kartāla and mṛdaṅga . Still, people do not come. They'll prefer to go the factory, whole day work in the hell. (laughs) They prefer. George Harrison: I suppose some day the whole of the world will just be chanting in the country. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. But if some of the leading men, they take it seriously, then others will follow. Just like in our book, your signature is there, "Oh, George Harrison. Yes." They take it, without any consideration, *Kṛṣṇa Book* . Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ ( BG 3.21). If the leading man does something, then his followers also do. This is the way. So if some of the leading men of the world, they take this movement seriously, then people will be happy. There's no doubt about it. You have come alone, without any associate? George Harrison: Just on my own. Prabhupāda: That's all right. George Harrison: It took me a while to find it. They're always building new roads everywhere and change the whole countryside. So I got a little lost. Prabhupāda: You came here twice, right? George Harrison: Yes, I've been here three times. Where will you be in India when you go back to India? Prabhupāda: Most probably in Bombay. George Harrison: Bombay. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have been in my Bombay? George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay. Yes, Bombay and Vṛndāvana when they were just building. George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. You have been in my Bombay? George Harrison : Yes, Bombay and Vṛndāvana when they were just building. Prabhupāda: Oh, Vṛndāvana, if you come there, stay for some time. George Harrison: Yes, well, ah, this December . . . Prabhupāda: We have got very nice houses, both in Bombay and Vṛndāvana. And Māyāpur also. Wherever you like. You will not be very uncomfortable. George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay for a wedding. Some friends are getting married. Prabhupāda: When? George Harrison: December the fifth, I think. Prabhupāda: Very nice season in Bombay. Best time. George Harrison: You know, I think you met Lakshmi Shankar, this lady singer? Her daughter, who is also a singer, Viji, Viji Shri Shankar, and she's marrying a South Indian violin player, L. Shankar. Prabhupāda: He's also Shankar? George Harrison: Well, he's called L. Shankar. You know that South India they have a funny way around them. They have like a surname. He's just called L. Shankar. His brother is called L. Subhramanyam. Prabhupāda: Bring small tables to George. George Harrison: (indistinct comments about names) So you never know what the other name is. Gurudāsa: George says he wants to spend some time in Vṛndāvana. *George Harrison: I was only there for about thirty*-six hours last time. Prabhupāda: We have got now very good centers. Another gentleman, he's offering us a very good place at Mahābaleśvara. That's one of the famous hillier stations. A very nice climate. So you can come and stay there. We have got now many good centers. George Harrison: Yes. I'll come and see if you're in Bombay, because I'll be near where the temple is. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bombay is just like garden. Yes. As good as your place here. No. Not so big. It is seventeen acres, and Bombay is five. ( prasādam being served) So, just go on. Give him whatever you have got, give. But don't give much. When he wants something more . . . "Waste not, want not." Give more. That preparation, you can give more. (laughter) George Harrison: Is that cauliflower? Prabhupāda: No. That is called . . . (indistinct) . . . you can bring it, prasāda . George Harrison: I'll just wash my hands. Prabhupāda: You can wash here. The sink is there. Here is also water. So you can put the bowls outside, yes, so that there will be sufficient place. Our Indian system is like that. That's all right. You sit down. You also sit down. Mukunda: You get a towel? George Harrison: Yes, thanks. Prabhupāda: Give him. George Harrison: I see you've done new books. You've been so busy, this is, so many books. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are already fifty*-four, and another at least thirty books I have to finish before my death. (laughs) That I am . . . (aside) Give him purī . Where is Ravi Shankar? George Harrison: He's in . . . I think he's in New York. He'll be here the first of August, and then I think he's . . . Prabhupāda: He has got his house there? In New York? George Harrison: No, just a house in Benares. Benares. He doesn't have anything. He just stays in hotels. Prabhupāda: I thought in Washington somebody told me that George Washing . . . George Harrison has got his house here. George Harrison: Yes, he had a little house here, but he . . . Prabhupāda: No, you have got your house in Washington? George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: No. (referring to prasādam ) Now we can begin. George Harrison: Okay, Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Gurudāsa: Nimbu*-pāni ? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. You give him two more samosās . He likes it. So now you can begin also. Yes. (background comments while prasādam served) All the boys and girls are so nicely qualified for Kṛṣṇa's service. George Harrison: They are looking better and better all the time. It's nice for me to see Gurudāsa. He's turning into a mountain. (laughter) Prabhupāda: His wife has also sannyāsī . . . (indistinct) . . . renounced. Have you seen her latest? George Harrison: No. *Prabhupāda: She has cut hair and white dress, living alone in the temple. Vairagya*-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam (CC Madhya 6.254). This bhakti-yoga means vairagya-vidyā , means detachment. That is the perfection of life. If we remain attached, that is conditional. Māyā has made so many things attractive so that we have to remain attached, and to come out of this attachment is called bhakti . (aside) So one man, you can sit down, you can eat. Pradyumna, you can eat. Pradyumna: I've taken some milk before, so . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, you don't require. Now you can eat, go on. Prasāda prapti mātrena. Our Jayatīrtha Prabhu is good manager. Management, looking after. Yes, he's very good manager, experienced. George Harrison: Hmm? Prabhupāda: He's experienced manager. Jayatīrtha: Not very good managing this place now. George Harrison: Well, it seems okay. Seems to be ticking over pretty good, peacefully. Prabhupāda: He was also managing Los Angeles. Yes. Now we have brought him here to see things nicely managed. George Harrison: It feels good, nice vibrations. Prabhupāda: Yes. One thing, Jayatīrtha, why don't you sprinkle this water in this ground? Jayatīrtha: Well, we do sprinkle it. Prabhupāda: Just have an ordinary pumping, and then it will be green. Jayatīrtha: There's a kind of a limit on the amount of water pressure you can get these days. Prabhupāda: Limit? George Harrison: It's been a drought in England. There's no . . . very little water. Prabhupāda: It is very dangerous. Everything is now yellow. Jayatīrtha: It's greener here than most places around, but . . . George Harrison: Everything's so dry this year, lot of trees and things dying without water. *Prabhupāda: That will be the punishment for this age. It is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . There will be scarcity of rain, and there will be scarcity of food, and heavy taxation by government. And people will become mad on account of these three things. Anāvṛṣṭi, durbhikṣa, kara-pīḍitāḥ (SB 12.2.9). George Harrison: It's getting dryer in England each year. It's like . . . it's probably going to end up as a desert in another hundred years. Prabhupāda: They expect like that? George Harrison: Well, I don't know. I think the whole world's changing. Somebody said it's the pollution, leave such . . . there's so much of the oceans now with polluted and with oil on the top, there's not so much evaporation anymore. Prabhupāda: Not in the ocean. It is the sinful activities of the populace. That is real problem. They are all engaged in sinful activities. Especially this innocent animal killing. These are the all reactions. Gurudāsa: In New York they had one island of refuse floated in to shore. Prabhupāda: Give him more samosās . Gurudāsa: For years they were building up island of refuse, and it floated in, and now no one can go to the beaches. Prabhupāda: Samosā . Where is samosā ? There is only one more left? George Harrison: I'm okay, actually. Devotee (2): There is sour cream. George Harrison: I've got plenty, thanks. Prabhupāda: Prasāda , we can eat up to the neck. (laughter) There is no harm. You'll never get indigestion. You have got some fruits? George Harrison: Yes. Mukunda: There's a very nice mango preparation there. Did you taste? George Harrison: Which one? Mukunda: The chilled mango. Looks like . . . (indistinct) George Harrison: Oh, this one. Prabhupāda: One German girl has prepared. We are introducing restaurant like this, and people are liking very much. We have got one restaurant in Hawaii, another restaurant we are organizing in Boston. That is being directly done by Alfred. You have met Alfred? Gurudāsa: Alfred Ford, the grandson of Henry Ford. George Harrison: No, I've never met him. *Prabhupāda: Oh. He is also very nice boy. Of course, younger than you. He's only twenty*-four years. What is your age now? *George Harrison: Thirty*-three. *Prabhupāda: Thirty*-three. That boy is also very nice young boy. Give Jayatīrtha? Huh? No? George Harrison: Do you feed everybody who comes Sunday? Gurudāsa: Hundreds. Prabhupāda: Sunday we have about five hundred to one thousand. Yes. George Harrison: So they must cook for days to feed all those people. Gurudāsa: No, day before, night before. George Harrison: Do they bring food as well? Gurudāsa: They bring grains or something like that, in bulk. *Prabhupāda: We had very gorgeous Ratha*-yātrā ceremony in New York last Sunday. George Harrison: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Sunday, eighteenth. Pusta Kṛṣṇa: A week ago yesterday. Gurudāsa: Last Sunday. Prabhupāda: Give . . . Gurudāsa: We fed about ten thousand that day. Prabhupāda: Cauliflower. Take little. George Harrison: I can't finish. (laughter) I'm trying to finish one so I can start on the next. I was sick also, lately. I had something, I went yellow. I had jaundice. Prabhupāda: Jaundice? George Harrison: Hmm. I don't know why. Just had food poisoning or something, and it affected my liver. Prabhupāda: Who cooks for you? George Harrison: Sometimes me, sometimes, ah . . . I don't know, I think we'd had some Chinese food. Prabhupāda: Oh, you should not take. George Harrison: But I was working as well, so I, you know, I think I was pretty tired. Prabhupāda: Better you cook simple food yourself and take it. George Harrison: The only thing I could eat was papaya. Prabhupāda: Papaya is very good, yes. (to prasādam servers) Give him, give him, give him. George Harrison: I still have . . . Prabhupāda: No, that is the different. Oh, all right. We are just attempting a big planetarium in Māyāpur. We have asked government to acquire land, 350 acres. That is negotiation are going on. We shall give a Vedic planetarium. George Harrison: Is that the one you were talking about? With all the . . . Prabhupāda: In the Fifth Canto. Gurudāsa: The planetarium will be 350 feet high and show the cosmology of the spiritual world and the material world. Prabhupāda: The construction will be like your Washington Capitol, like that. George Harrison: A big dome. Prabhupāda: Yes. Estimated eight crores of rupees. (pause) Prabhupāda: Is there any dahī preparation? Devotee (2): There's only one. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. Now, there is fruit. You . . . George Harrison: Very good. Fantastic. Hari-śauri: What would you like? Something of everything? Prabhupāda: Two pieces . . . George Harrison: Maybe just a little bit of, but now I'm not . . . thanks. That's fine. No, okay. Thanks, fine. That's enough, that's fine. Prabhupāda: That watermelon, you can give more. It is water. George Harrison: Now let me finish all of this. Prabhupāda: This is that mango preparation. George Harrison: Okay. Devotee (2): It's coming. Prabhupāda: You like that preparation? Yes. George Harrison: We used to have this with milk at Rishikesh. Every day they'd leave outside of the door. It's good. (pause) George Harrison: Do you, Mukunda, do you break even with all the costs, running cost? Do you do okay with all this food and fruit and stuff? Mukunda: Oh, yes. More than even. We have about thirteen hundred Life Members in the Indian community. And then when they come on the weekends they bring food, they bring these hundred pound donations, put money in the box. George Harrison: At one time you just had the Godhead and incense. Mukunda: Yes, now it's all public support. Jayatīrtha: We don't sell incense anymore. Mukunda: And the books we just sell for very little; we hardly make any money on them at all. Prabhupāda: Are you reading sometimes my books? Which one? George Harrison: Mainly Kṛṣṇa . Prabhupāda: That is the main book. (laughs) George Harrison: Mukunda gave me the new books, but there's so much in . . . ah, there's just so much to read. Prabhupāda: Philosophy. George Harrison: I don't know how anybody could have written it, it's difficult enough to read all that amount. Prabhupāda: Sometimes they are surprised how one man can write so many books, but it is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise is not possible. Humanly it is not possible. *Mukunda: That one series of books I brought you, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hari-śauri? There is no sweet melon. Mukunda: And every single word is written by hand, five hundred years ago. Prabhupāda: No sweet melon? (background comments about melon) You are in the same house? Hmm? George Harrison: Henley. Prabhupāda: Henley, yes. Very nice house. George Harrison: Hmm, very nice. I work from the house. I have a studio, recording studio in the house. So I don't have to go to London anymore. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have all arrangement there. That's very nice. How many acres? *George Harrison: It's about thirty*-five. Prabhupāda: Oh, very good area. Devotee (2): Did you get that other land? Mukunda: Yes, only five hundred pounds. Devotee (2): Really? Amazing. George Harrison: Five hundred pounds! Mukunda: Yes, for four acres. George Harrison: That's quite cheap. Mukunda: Yes, we were really surprised. But if it hadn't been for that, we'd have had no cow pasture. Cows are out there. Prabhupāda: We have got one cow—many cows in Philadelphia—the milk bags, she gives hundred and two pounds daily. George Harrison: Of milk? Who owns this? Who milks the cows? Gurudāsa: Some of the devotees. Prabhupāda: We have got tanks for storing milk. Tanks. George Harrison: Yes? *Prabhupāda: Yes. All up*-to-date refrigerator and everything. That extra milk they are selling. Similarly, in New Vrindavan we are getting one thousand pounds milk daily. One thousand pounds. Mukunda: That's our place in Virginia. George Harrison: How many cows? Must be hundreds of them. Prabhupāda: But the Philadelphia is more organized. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Through the nozzles, milk carrying, always hot water is washing it. Jayatīrtha: There's much better facility in that Pennsylvania place. New Vrindavan's kind of a . . . they built up from scratch by themselves. Gurudāsa: Rustic. Jayatīrtha: Yes, rustic is the word. (laughter) Pennsylvania, they bought this fabulous farm all made up. Prabhupāda: Pradyumna, give him little, this one here. George Harrison: Oh, no, no. Please, no more. I'm really full. I won't have to eat for a few days. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Sweets. George Harrison: Very well. Prabhupāda: Sweet will help you digest. Don't give three—at least four. George Harrison: I won't be able to eat much more. Prabhupāda: Three is given to the enemy. According to our Indian system, if you give somebody three, that means he is enemy. George Harrison: Oh, really? I always liked the number three. Prabhupāda: (laughs) You must give at least four. George Harrison: I like three, five, seven, nine. Those numbers. Prabhupāda: Tri-śatru What are the three enemies? Kāma, krodha . . . Pradyumna: Lobha . Gurudāsa: Lust, anger, greed. Three enemies Prabhupāda: Three enemies—lusty desire, anger and greediness. George Harrison: Yes. But there's a lot of nice threes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. Three. Three worlds: Svarga, Martya, Pātāla. Trinity. These are nice things. *George Harrison: Tri*-guṇa. *Prabhupāda: Tri*-guṇa , yes. Jayatīrtha: The three modes, they're not so nice. George Harrison: Well, they're all necessary. Jayatīrtha: Yes. George Harrison: I met, I think, one of your master's other devotees. I forget his name. Gosvāmī, big, in Vṛndāvana. Big, tall, with a staff, bald hair. Said you knew his name? Gurudāsa: Puruṣottama? George Harrison: Puruṣottama? Yes. Mukunda: In Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: He's not a sannyāsī . George Harrison: Pardon? Prabhupāda: He's not sannyāsī . George Harrison: Oh, well, the one I met had a staff. Maybe it was a different one. Gurudāsa: Mādhava Mahārāja maybe. Prabhupāda: Maybe Mādhava Mahārāja. Jayatīrtha: He's big. Prabhupāda: He's my Godbrother. George Harrison: Yes, but he didn't talk English. But all the people I was with said he spoke very good Sanskrit, had a good understanding of Sanskrit. But I couldn't understand anything that he . . . you know . . . I just watched him. Pradyumna: I think Puruṣottama Gosāi. Prabhupāda: He's talking of Puruṣottama. Pradyumna: Gosāi. Prabhupāda: He's blackish? George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: Not fair complexion. Puruṣottama. George Harrison: I think he was fair, but he was very tall, very big, and you know, like this, huge size. Well, he had a place where I stayed the night. Pradyumna: That's his place, Puruṣottama Gosāi. Gurudāsa: He's not a sannyāsī . Prabhupāda: He's not sannyāsī , he is householder. Jayatīrtha: He's married man. George Harrison: Yes, he had . . . his son lived there. Jayatīrtha: Yes. George Harrison: But maybe he's taken, I don't know. I thought he had a daṇḍa , one of those staffs. I saw the little temple in the garden, had the Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, where they stay in bed. It's like a bed like this. You know the one? Pradyumna: Nidhuvana Mandir. Prabhupāda: Nidhuvana. Gurudāsa: Nidhuvana Mandir. George Harrison: I saw that, where He's been out all night so He doesn't get up until ten o'clock in the morning. Prabhupāda: You have not seen our temple since it is inaugurated? No. George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: This time you come. Many thousand people come to see Deity. George Harrison: I saw the photograph, looks really nice. It's big. Gurudāsa: Now they say it's the most beautiful modern temple in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: You have seen our . . . there is any film of the temple? Gurudāsa: No, but there's photographs. Jayatīrtha: We have a nice photograph in the reception room downstairs. George Harrison: Actually it was half built. Gurudāsa: Yes. Even the building you went into, there's more, up, the roof. Prabhupāda: That courtyard is very beautiful. There is a tāmala tree. That is a very valuable tree. The Bisanchand Seth asked me to cut. Gurudāsa: Yes, I remember. Prabhupāda: What a nonsense, such a . . . Gurudāsa: I remember that. Prabhupāda: He has no idea. Now, on account of that tree, it looks so beautiful. Hari-śauri: Yes. It's very wonderful. The whole tree has flourished since the temple began. Gurudāsa: We planned the whole temple around that tree. The whole plans. George Harrison: It's a big old tree? Pradyumna: Tree's just in the courtyard of the temple, so we left it there. Gurudāsa: Tāmala tree is the same color as Kṛṣṇa, śyāma . Like a fresh rain cloud color. So when Rādhārāṇī sees the tree, She thinks of Kṛṣṇa. So when we see the tree we think of Kṛṣṇa. And Śrīla Prabhupāda sits underneath the tree and watches. Prabhupāda: Rādhārāṇī in separation was embracing that tree, tāmala tree. And they say that in Vṛndāvana, only there are four tāmala trees left. Gurudāsa: Yes, they've said four or six. Very few. George Harrison: Is this tree still living? Devotees: Yes, it's alive. George Harrison: (finishes prasādam ) My compliments to the chef. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is this water? Hari-śauri: Lemonade. Prabhupāda: Is there any more? Hari-śauri: I just took it out. I can get some. Prabhupāda: Bring little. George Harrison: I'll wash my hands. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: So I am very much pleased that you take so much trouble to come here. George Harrison: It's my pleasure. Prabhupāda: (to Hari-śauri) Yes, give me little for drinking. You want little more? George Harrison: Are you ever going to stop traveling? Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. I don't want, personally, but if Kṛṣṇa wants, that is everything. We have got now hundred and two centers, different parts of the world. George Harrison: Still six more to go. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) We have got a very nice house in Detroit. If you sometimes go there you'll see. George Harrison: Whereabouts? Prabhupāda: Detroit. George Harrison: Ah, Detroit. They need one there. Crazy place. Jayatīrtha: Heavy place. Prabhupāda: That house was constructed fifty years ago at the cost of six million dollar, and we have got it very cheap. Three hundred thousand dollars. George Harrison: Was it a big house? Hari-śauri: A very big mansion on the riverside. George Harrison: Colonial house? Prabhupāda: Not as big—four acres of land—but the building is very costly. One room will cost now three hundred thousand dollars. So nicely made. Hari-śauri: They estimated it would cost about fifteen million to build such a house now. George Harrison: Yes, they probably wouldn't even bother or be able to, at least. Is it an old house? Hari-śauri: Fifty years old. It's very solid though, very good condition as well. Prabhupāda: And on the house on bottom, there is river. Not directly, but an offshoot of river. People come, rowing. A very nice situation. And because it is black quarter, nobody was purchasing. So I said that "For us, what is black and white? Purchase it." So we got very cheap. At that time I paid them hundred and fifty thousand, and . . . (indistinct) . . . Elizabeth. We purchased. George Harrison: Did they have a temple in Hamburg? In Hamburg. I was there once, but they just had a little tiny house, and they were trying to get another. Prabhupāda: Hamburg, I think closed? Jayatīrtha: They have a place in Frankfurt, where the devotees are . . . just outside of Frankfurt. George Harrison: So they haven't got a place in Hamburg. Jayatīrtha: No, it's a heavy city. George Harrison: I was there one year when they were having fights. It's . . . Jayatīrtha: Rockers. It's a heavy place. Mukunda: Rockers. George Harrison: It is full of gangs. Prabhupāda: And we have got another palace . . . what is that village? Jayatīrtha: South of Paris? That one? Prabhupāda: No, France. Jayatīrtha: Yes, south of Paris. It's near a place called Valencay. Very nice place. Pradyumna: French chateau. Mukunda: It's on about 250 acres. George Harrison: Really? Mukunda: Huge fields, beautiful place. I'll show you a picture of it. George Harrison: Yes. So that was the goal, isn't it? One hundred and eight temples. Jayatīrtha: Should be able to do it this year, I think. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: We should have a hundred and eight this year, I think. Hari-śauri: Centers. One hundred and eight centers. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: Temples and farms. Prabhupāda: But we want worker. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is giving us so many centers. Yes. In India I can get so many places, but how to manage? Simply taking from persons, and if I cannot manage nicely, that does not look well. Therefore I say first of all get men, then take donation, there is no harm. How many devotees were living here? Jayatīrtha: There's about a hundred, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, then it is all right. And if there was no devotees, ten devotees, then how could we manage? Jayatīrtha: We have about fifteen devotees that work full time on the grounds. Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty sprinkling water that quarter? It is costly? Jayatīrtha: We'll try to sprinkle more, but there's a lack of water pressure. Prabhupāda: No, pressure, by pump. George Harrison: That's what we have. We had a little Honda pump, but you had to start it off. It's a gasoline engine, I think. And put one pipe into the lake and just pump out of the lake, and then you have a sprinkler on the other side. Makes a noise, though, that's the only thing. Makes a noise and gives off an exhaust. Prabhupāda: A pump for, say, one hour, two hour. George Harrison: You could use the water out of the lake, then nobody could really complain about that. Jayatīrtha: That's how we'd have to do it, I think. George Harrison: That probably wouldn't be enough . . . it wouldn't take the level down too much. How do you fill that up? Mukunda: That's a natural watershed. This is the lowest place in the area in about four miles every direction. So we have all those underground water tables feeding it. Prabhupāda: If there is rain then there is no scarcity of water. The water comes here. Yes. George Harrison: But how, when you drain it, then how did you stop it from filling up? Mukunda: Well, it did fill up in the winter quite a bit, but then in the summer it went back down. It's filled up now—we had to use city water to get it started. But as soon as it rains it goes up about this far. Jayatīrtha: It's evaporated about six inches since. Mukunda: You don't have a well in your place? George Harrison: No, just, well, that bore pond. Originally the lakes all were filled just like this as well as flooding the drains, and when it rained off the house everything would go. And we have a big storage tank, and then there's ballcocks, and underneath that big bank of rhododendrons was like a room built there, which was a storage tank. Then any other water he must have used just from the mains. But these days, you know, they have meters on the mains, so you have to pay for every gallon. Mukunda: What about getting those water diviners to come and find water? George Harrison: Well, you can find it I think anywhere if you just bore a hole. So what we did was just bore at the end of the lake. But you have to go down to the depth of the riverbed, and there there's not much water because the rain. It's all chalk and limestone, so the rain . . . that's the problem with watering in the summer, if you put water . . . Prabhupāda: From your house the river is near? George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Thames? George Harrison: Yes. But then the Thames is here, and we're up on the hill, so we bored a hole right down to the three hundred feet, I think, three hundred and fifty feet, to the level of the river, and then a pump, we can pump that. But when it does rain or if you do water the ground, it's all so chalky that it runs right through it. So it's hard to keep a lot of moisture in the water. But also at the same time all the rain water runs through. When it hits the rock level of the riverbed, there must be tons of water down there. We can pump out of there all day long for months on end, and nothing seems to dry up. Jayatīrtha: Fantastic. Mukunda: You could even do it by hand if you were out of electricity. George Harrison: I mean the hole is . . . the bore hole is actually only about this wide. You can have a little bucket. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: You have to apply for permission, actually, to dig a well, but around here at least you have to get permission. George Harrison: You have to. We did too. You have to put your name on a list, on a public notice in the local papers, and if somebody wants to complain about it, then they have a chance to. And once it's been up there for a few days or a week or something, and if nobody's made any formal complaint for any reason, like maybe they've got one, a bore hole, and you may be tampering there, so then you just go ahead. You know it's all approved, and then your name goes on the list someplace in the county surveyor's office. So you do have to go through a, you know, a couple of months of waiting. Just to, say, bore a hole to replenish, Jayatīrtha: Costs a lot of money for water around here. George Harrison: And you have to just pay for the cost of the bore hole and the pump, to lay out electricity to where the pump is. The pump is, you know, just in the ground. You can't even see it. You know, by that weeping willow tree? Prabhupāda: So if you want to take little rest, we can arrange for that. Resting. George Harrison: Rest? Prabhupāda: Yes, for you. George Harrison: No, no. Jayatīrtha: I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you want to rest. Prabhupāda: No. George Harrison: You take a rest. *Prabhupāda: I am taking rest now these twenty*-four hours. Now I have no other business than to take rest. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: Always resting at the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is real rest. *The Mukunda*-māla-stotra . . . there was a big emperor . . . (indistinct) . . . Kulaśekhara, Emperor Kulaśekhara, he was a great devotee. So he wrote some poetry. Formerly, kings were so advanced, rajarṣi . They are king, at the same time, saintly persons. In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2): this science of Bhagavad-gītā was learned by the rājarṣis . People were happy therefore. The head, or the executive, they were all saintly persons. So this Kulaśekhara, he writes in the beginning of his poetry, "Kṛṣṇa, O Kṛṣṇa . . ." Kṛṣṇa tvādīya-pada-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam . The paṅkaja means lotus flower. So Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet is just like lotus flower. The lotus flower has stem down, and the swans, they take pleasure to go down the water and entangled by the stem. Have you seen their pleasure? Yes. That is their great sporting, to be entangled by the stem and come out, in this way, go deep. This is their sporting. *So this Kulaśekhara is praying, "My Lord Kṛṣṇa, let my swan of mind be entangled with the stem of Your lotus feet." Kṛṣṇa tvādīya*-pada-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam adyaiva : "immediately"— viśatu —"let enter." Who? Adyaiva viśatu me , "my," mānasa-rāja-haṁsaḥ , "my mind, which is just like a swan." So why adyaiva , immediately? He says that prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye, "At the time of death," prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye kapha-vāta-pittaiḥ , "when the physical condition of the body will be in disorder," kapha, pitta, vayu will be not in order . . . prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye kapha-vāta-pittaiḥ kaṇṭhāvarodha , "At that time I shall not be able to speak. I'll ahn, ahn, but that's all. So I may not be able to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Better I am now in good health, so let my mind be entangled in the stem of Your lotus feet." Very nice poetry. *"At that time I may be not able to utter 'Kṛṣṇa' or think of You, and now I am healthy, let me finish this business." That means "Let me die immediately. Now I'm healthy, I'm quite fit." This is the ideal. Ante nārāyaṇa*-smṛtiḥ (SB 2.1.6). At the time of death, if one remembers Kṛṣṇa, then his life is successful. Immediately he goes to Kṛṣṇa. Just like Ajāmila. He chanted "Nārāyaṇa," and immediately his path to Vaikuṇṭha become clear. So this practice means, whatever we practice all through life, there is chance of coming that remembrance at the time of death, and then it is successful, life is success. If at the time of death one can remember Kṛṣṇa, then his whole life is successful. Our one student, Kārtikeya, his mother was very fortunate. So his mother had nothing to do with this Society, but the boy was attached, and she heard several times "Kṛṣṇa," that this boy is attached to Kṛṣṇa. At the time of her death, she asked her son, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" and died. Just see how fortunate she is. She simply uttered this word, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" then she died. Very fortunate. So on account of her son she got salvation. Yes. Otherwise, Kārtikeya told me that he went to see his mother, and the mother was going to ball dance, and the mother did not receive him well. "All right, you sit down. I'll come again." She was such lady. But by Kṛṣṇa's grace, at the time of death, she inquired her son, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" That's . . . (indistinct) . . . very fortunate. George Harrison: When my mother died I had to send my sister and father out of the room, because they were getting emotional, and I just chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: She chanted. George Harrison: I did. Prabhupāda: Oh, very nice. So she could hear? George Harrison: I don't know, I don't know. She was in like a coma or something. It was the only thing I could think of. Prabhupāda: When it happened? George Harrison: In 1970. It was the only thing I could think of that may be of value, you know. Prabhupāda: Anyway, if she has heard Hare Kṛṣṇa, she'll get benefitted. Either she chants or somebody chanting, if she hears, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam, both the same thing. Little chance. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). So let us practice in such a way that at the time of death we may remember. That is success. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). So you are reading Kṛṣṇa repeatedly? *Kṛṣṇa Book* you are reading repeatedly? George Harrison: Well, you know, I read it every so often. I always take the *Gītā* with me wherever I go. I mean that's the one I just keep all the time. But you know, I'll just sometimes read a little of something, a little bit of something else. I've never been a great reader. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, you have got chance here to think soberly. But on account of your chanting "Kṛṣṇa," so many people are chanting. George Harrison: I don't think it's on my account. Prabhupāda: No, they say: "George chants Hare Kṛṣṇa." They say. Do they not? Mukunda: Yes. Prabhupāda: And you have got many thousand followers. George Harrison: Well It's nice, but I think we all . . . *Prabhupāda: Anyway, you go on chanting. That will influence. There is a poetry written by, I think in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , where the Rupa Gosvāmī is wondering, "I do not know what sweetness there in these two words, Kṛṣ-ṇa ." Gurudāsa: The verse starts with priyo , "dear." *Prabhupāda: Varna*-dvayī. You remember this verse? No, jane . "What kind of nectar it is there in these two words, Kṛṣ-ṇa ?" You have seen Deity today? No, it was closed. George Harrison: It was closed. Jayatīrtha: It's open again now. Prabhupāda: When it is open? Jayatīrtha: It's open now. The ārati is going on, the afternoon ārati . Prabhupāda: Oh. Sometimes you can come and stay here, see the ārati , at least one day, whole program, how they are doing. What is the program whole day? *Jayatīrtha: It starts at four*-fifteen, here. Prabhupāda: Morning. *Jayatīrtha: Yes, with the ārati , and then we worship Tulasī*-devī, chant japa and then have class, and then prasādam , eight-fifteen. Then during the day we all work, and in the evening again, seven o'clock, everyone comes together for the ārati , class. George Harrison: How is that school in Texas, you know, with all the children? Hari-śauri: That's gurukula . Jayatīrtha: They have about six schools now. One's at this place in France, they have a school there, this farm. And Dallas, and Los Angeles, Pennsylvania, Māyāpur. Hari-śauri: Vṛndāvana gurukula also was started. George Harrison: There's all kinds of strange things written in those newspapers, Dallas, strange things. Particularly about the little children's school. Hari-śauri: It's because they don't bother to find out before they write things. Gurudāsa: Just like they said that the children sleep in the basement. That's because it was in the hot summer. Everyone goes to the basement in the summer in Dallas. Mukunda: The kids don't feel any difficulty at all sleeping on the floor. Children are naturally austere. It's just after you get to a certain age the conditioning affects you. Devotee: They said they live without furniture. (laughter) Gurudāsa: They're prejudiced about those things. Jayatīrtha: They have to eat with their hands. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You have got the last copy of Seventh Canto? Hari-śauri: Seven, Three? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mukunda: There's some books that came out since I brought those last books. George Harrison: There's also somebody, I think it was a guy who was trying to get his wife back or something. (laughs) I know it was in California . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was saying, "They've stolen my wife." These stories kill me. I mean, it's so funny because the way (indistinct conversation with devotees). Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, brahmacārī gurukule . Hari-śauri: I think that's in Seven, Two. Seven, One or Seven, Two. Harikeśa: Sixteenth Chapter, first verse, I think. It's the first verse, brahmacārī gurukule. Jayatīrtha: One man came to the temple, he heard that his daughter had participated in one of our fire sacrifices, and he was afraid that . . . George Harrison: Fire sacrifices? Jayatīrtha: When we have initiations we have a fire sacrifice. He was afraid that she had been sacrificed. (laughter) Hari-śauri: "Nārada Muni said, A student should practice completely controlling his senses. He should be submissive and should have an attitude of firm friendship for the spiritual master. With a great vow, the brahmacārī should live in the gurukula , only for the benefit of the guru ." Prabhupāda: Next. Pradyumna: "At both junctions of day, namely, in the early morning and in the evening, he should be fully absorbed in thoughts of the spiritual master, fire, the sun god and Lord Viṣṇu, and by chanting the Gāyatrī mantra he should worship them." Prabhupāda: Go on reading. Pradyumna: "Being called by the spiritual master, the student should study the Vedic mantras regularly. Every day, before beginning his studies and at the end of his studies, the disciple should respectfully offer obeisances unto the spiritual master." "Carrying pure kuṣa grass in his hand, the brahmacārī should dress regularly with a belt of straw and with deerskin garments. He should wear matted hair, carry a rod and waterpot, and be decorated with a sacred thread, as recommended in the śāstras ." "The brahmacārī should go out morning and evening to collect alms, and he should offer all that he collects to the spiritual master. He should eat only if ordered to take food by the spiritual master; otherwise, if the spiritual master does not give this order, he may sometimes have to fast." "A brahmacārī should be quite well behaved and gentle and should not eat or collect more than necessary. He must always be active and expert, fully believing in the instructions of the spiritual master and the sastra . Fully controlling his senses, he should associate only as much as necessary with women or those controlled by women." "A brahmacārī , or one who has not accepted the grhastha āśrama , or family life, must rigidly avoid talking with women or about women, for the senses are so powerful that they may agitate even the mind of a sannyāsī , a member of the renounced order of life." "If the wife of the spiritual master is young, a young brahmacārī should not allow her to care for his hair, massage his body with oil, or bathe him with affection like a mother." "Woman is compared to fire, and man is compared to a butter pot. Therefore a man should avoid associating even with his own daughter in a secluded place. Similarly, he should also avoid association with other women. One should associate with women only for important business and not otherwise." *"As long as a living entity is not completely self*-realized—as long as he is not independent of the misconception of identifying with his body, which is nothing but a reflection of the original body and senses—he cannot be relieved of the conception of duality, which is epitomized by the duality between a man and woman. Thus there is every chance that he will fall down because his intelligence is bewildered." "All the rules and regulations apply equally to the householder and the sannyāsī , the member of the renounced order of life. The grhastha , however, is given permission by the spiritual master to indulge in sex during the period favorable for procreation." " Brahmacārīs or grhasthas who have taken the vow of celibacy as described above should not indulge in the following: applying powder or ointment to the eyes, massaging the head with oil, massaging the body with the hands, seeing a woman or painting a woman's picture, eating meat, drinking wine, decorating the body with flower garlands, smearing scented ointment on the body, or decorating the body with ornaments. These they should give up." *"According to the rules and regulations mentioned above, one who is twice*-born, namely a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya or vaiśya , should reside in the gurukula under the care of the spiritual master. There he should study and learn all the Vedic literatures along with their supplements and the Upaniṣads , according to his ability and power to study. If possible, the student or disciple should reward the spiritual master with the remuneration the spiritual master requests, and then, following the master's order, the disciple should leave and accept one of the other āśramas , namely the gṛhastha āśrama, vānaprastha āśrama or sannyāsa āśrama, as he desires." Prabhupāda: So this is my copy? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: You can give. Hari-śauri: This is Prabhupāda's latest book just came out. George Harrison: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What was it he was saying? I thought you were going to read out of here something about Kṛṣ-ṇa , the two . . . Pradyumna: This was about the brahmacārī in the gurukula , in the school, what a young child should learn to practice. George Harrison: Yes. But I thought you were saying something about the sound of the two sounds of Kṛṣ and ṇa . *Prabhupāda: Ah, kṛṣṇeti varṇa*-dvayī (CC Antya 1.99). Gurudāsa: Ah, yes. "I wish I had ten thousand ears to hear the sweet sound of Kṛṣṇa, and ten thousand tongues to say it." George Harrison: So this isn't . . . I didn't get this one? Mukunda: Not yet, no. That's latest. It just came out. George Harrison: Seventh Canto, Part Three. Hari-śauri: They bring the first two copies to Śrīla Prabhupāda wherever he is. So this we got in New York just before we left. Gurudāsa: It's right off the press. Mukunda: Look at the pictures in the . . . Prabhupāda: These pictures are made by our boys. George Harrison: Yes, beautiful. Prabhupāda: They are learning more and more. Hari-śauri: This one is very good because it explains the breakdown of the social positions. George Harrison: Hmm? Hari-śauri: The varṇāśrama system. It's very good. *Prabhupāda: This instruction of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam was never given before in the Western countries. This is the first time. George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore they're appreciating. We are selling our book daily sixty thousand dollars. George Harrison: Really? Prabhupāda: Yes. All over the world. Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you're going to outdo Shakespeare soon. You'll have written more English words than William Shakespeare. (Prabhupāda laughs) Maybe you already have. *Hari-śauri: I don't think Shakespeare's brought out fifty*-six books. Mukunda: The Encyclopaedia Britannica wrote to us asking for . . . Prabhupāda: They have said . . . George Harrison: These books are such a lot of work. I don't know how he did it all. Gurudāsa: While everyone else sleeps, Prabhupāda's . . . George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: At night I don't sleep. Not that because I am nowadays sick. But generally I don't sleep. Utmost two hours. Utmost. Hari-śauri: I think it's a long time since you've taken any rest at night. Prabhupāda: I take little rest during daytime. So on the whole, three to four hours. But actually I do not like to sleep. George Harrison: No, it's a waste of time. Prabhupāda: I think it is, when I go to sleep, I think that now I'm going to waste my time. I actually think like that. George Harrison: What's the word for . . . the call it the little . . . little death. Sleep is the little death. Prabhupāda: The śāstra also, Prahlāda Mahārāja describe the sleeping is waste of time. (aside) You find out that verse. Hari-śauri: It's in Seven, Two? Prabhupāda: Seventh Canto. He's estimating you have got hundred years age, utmost. Out of that, fifty years lost, sleep. And then twenty years playing as child, a boy. And in old age, another . . . Hari-śauri: "Every human being has a maximum duration of life of one hundred years, but for one who cannot control his senses, half of those years are completely lost because at night he sleeps twelve hours, being covered by ignorance. Therefore such a person has a lifetime of only fifty years." Prabhupāda: Fifty years immediately minus. Then out of the fifty years? Hari-śauri: "In the tender age of childhood, when everyone is bewildered, one passes ten years. Similarly, in boyhood, engaged in sporting and playing, one passes another ten years. In this way, twenty years are wasted. Similarly, in old age, when one is an invalid, unable to perform even material activities, one passes another twenty years wastefully." "One whose mind and senses are uncontrolled becomes increasingly attached to family life because of insatiable lusty desires and very strong illusion. In such a madman's life the remaining years are also wasted, because even during those years he cannot engage himself in devotional service." Prabhupāda: So hundred years finished. (laughs) Fifty years, twenty years, twenty years and ten years. George Harrison: Which volume is that? Hari-śauri: This is the one before that one. George Harrison: Part Two. Hari-śauri: Yes. This is Prahlāda Mahārāja's instructions. Prabhupāda: You can give that volume also. George Harrison: Did you . . . do you . . . I'm not too sure which ones I've got up to. Mukunda: He's got up to . . . you've got about two more coming before that. I'll give them to you before you go, to make sure. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa varṇa*-dvayī , you have got that? *Jayatīrtha: I found that verse. Actually, Rañcor found it. Tuṇḍe tāṇḍavinī ratim vitanute tuṇḍāvalī*-ladbhaye. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna? You just note down this verse and give him. Jayatīrtha: And the translation is "I do not know how much nectar the two syllables kṛṣ-ṇa have produced. When the holy name of Kṛṣṇa is chanted, it appears to dance within the mouth. We then desire many, many mouths. When that name enters the holes of the ears, we desire many millions of ears. And when the holy name dances in the courtyard of the heart, it conquers the activities of the mind, and therefore all the senses become inert." That was Rupa Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: That is very nice poetry. Read it again. Tuṇḍe tāṇḍavinī . . . Jayatīrtha: The English? I don't chant very well. Harikeśa Mahārāja chants nicely. Prabhupāda: Yes, you first of all recite. Very nice. (background talking) Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: One thing, you can record and give him. Hari-śauri: I'll make a copy of this tape and give it to him. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, you should recite very properly, and then it will recorded. Then it will be right. Pradyumna: This is Sanskrit. Jayatīrtha: That's Sanskrit? It's written in Bengali characters. I see. Prabhupāda: In India, all different states they have got different alphabets, but the Sanskrit is the same. There is no change in Sanskrit. India's culture, all the provinces, they talk a little . . . (indistinct) . . . if you chant this mantra according to the Sanskrit tune, oh, your admirers will take it very nicely. (laughter) And that will be a great benefit to the mass of people. George Harrison: I don't know if they'd like it. Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll like. (laughs) George Harrison: They don't understand. Already they don't understand such a lot. Even if you say it in English. Even when you say things to them in English, they don't understand. Prabhupāda: That word Kṛṣṇa, if they hear, that will be sufficient. George Harrison: (indistinct comments with devotees) We were in Vṛndāvana, somebody, we were singing in the morning, singing this " Jaya Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. George Harrison: And he asked, this person said to me, "You should make it into a song in English." So I wrote English verses, and in each chorus it has " jaya kṛṣṇa, jaya kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa, jaya kṛṣṇa, jaya śrī kṛṣṇa; jaya rādhe, jaya rādhe, rādhe, jaya rādhe, jaya śrī rādhe ." I don't know, did you . . . if you heard that song. It was on that "Extra Texture"—you know that one? "He who . . ." I wrote the English words. "He whose eyes have seen what our lives have been, and who we really are—it is He, jaya śrī kṛṣṇa. " And then it has a chorus. "He whose sweetness flows to any one of those that cares to look His way, see His smile, jaya śrī rādhe, " then the chorus again. Mukunda: This is on George's new record. George Harrison: No, it was last year. And "He who is complete, three worlds at His feet, cause of every star, it is He, jaya Śrī Kṛṣṇa ." It's a nice song. But I took the old, the tune that we sang in Vṛndāvana, and just made slightly different, you know, with chords, chord patterns. Prabhupāda: So in your next record, you can give this. (laughter) George Harrison: (break) . . . this little girl, he had a baby girl and was trying to think of a name, so I told him to call it Dhara, you know? 'Cause from Rādhā— rādhārādhārādhā —it becomes dhārā. So he called his girl that name. Jayatīrtha: There's a story of Vālmīki. You know that story? Gurudāsa: Mārāmārāmārāmārāmārāmārā . Jayatīrtha: Vālmīki was a murderer, or a dacoit, thief. So he was met by Nārada Muni, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, Vālmīki. Jayatīrtha: And he was advised by Nārada Muni to please chant the holy name of the Lord and give up this thievery. So he wouldn't. So instead Nārada Muni said: "You chant mārā ." Mārā means death. So he agreed. Prabhupāda: Mārāmārā—rāma. Jayatīrtha: Later on, this Vālmīki he wrote the *Rāmāyaṇa* after having chanting rāma . . . mārā , he became purified. Hari-śauri: Transcendental trickery. Jayatīrtha: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Long live. (everyone leaves) (end) (Conversation with George Harrison) George Harrison: How are you feeling? *Prabhupāda: I have old man's disease, cough and cold, so coughing. But still, work is going on, and I shall complete eighty years this month. September, eighty*-one. So now, due to age, it is becoming little difficult. George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Anyway, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. So how are you? George Harrison: Quite good. Prabhupāda: Chanting is going on? George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Thank you. That is our life and soul. Gṛhe vā vanete thāke, 'hā gaurāṅga' bole ḍāke. Wherever you live, it doesn't matter—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is our only support. (aside) So bring food here. Jayatīrtha: We should . . . have the lunch here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bring. George Harrison: All the devotees are looking really good. Prabhupāda: Eh? George Harrison: The devotees are looking great. Strong. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Phalena paricīyate. By the result, one has to study. Yesterday, one devotee's father and mother came, Hari-śauri. She and his father were very pleased to see him healthy, bright. Mukunda: They hadn't seen him for six years. Prabhupāda: Six years, yes. So we are inviting everyone, "Come here. Such a nice house given by George. (laughs) You live here comfortably, eat nicely, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." We don't want any factory work. George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Simply kartāla and mṛdaṅga . Still, people do not come. They'll prefer to go the factory, whole day work in the hell. (laughs) They prefer. George Harrison: I suppose some day the whole of the world will just be chanting in the country. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. But if some of the leading men, they take it seriously, then others will follow. Just like in our book, your signature is there, "Oh, George Harrison. Yes." They take it, without any consideration, *Kṛṣṇa Book* . Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ ( BG 3.21). If the leading man does something, then his followers also do. This is the way. So if some of the leading men of the world, they take this movement seriously, then people will be happy. There's no doubt about it. You have come alone, without any associate? George Harrison: Just on my own. Prabhupāda: That's all right. George Harrison: It took me a while to find it. They're always building new roads everywhere and change the whole countryside. So I got a little lost. Prabhupāda: You came here twice, right? George Harrison: Yes, I've been here three times. Where will you be in India when you go back to India? Prabhupāda: Most probably in Bombay. George Harrison: Bombay. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have been in my Bombay? George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay. Yes, Bombay and Vṛndāvana when they were just building. George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. You have been in my Bombay? George Harrison : Yes, Bombay and Vṛndāvana when they were just building. Prabhupāda: Oh, Vṛndāvana, if you come there, stay for some time. George Harrison: Yes, well, ah, this December . . . Prabhupāda: We have got very nice houses, both in Bombay and Vṛndāvana. And Māyāpur also. Wherever you like. You will not be very uncomfortable. George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay for a wedding. Some friends are getting married. Prabhupāda: When? George Harrison: December the fifth, I think. Prabhupāda: Very nice season in Bombay. Best time. George Harrison: You know, I think you met Lakshmi Shankar, this lady singer? Her daughter, who is also a singer, Viji, Viji Shri Shankar, and she's marrying a South Indian violin player, L. Shankar. Prabhupāda: He's also Shankar? George Harrison: Well, he's called L. Shankar. You know that South India they have a funny way around them. They have like a surname. He's just called L. Shankar. His brother is called L. Subhramanyam. Prabhupāda: Bring small tables to George. George Harrison: (indistinct comments about names) So you never know what the other name is. Gurudāsa: George says he wants to spend some time in Vṛndāvana. *George Harrison: I was only there for about thirty*-six hours last time. Prabhupāda: We have got now very good centers. Another gentleman, he's offering us a very good place at Mahābaleśvara. That's one of the famous hillier stations. A very nice climate. So you can come and stay there. We have got now many good centers. George Harrison: Yes. I'll come and see if you're in Bombay, because I'll be near where the temple is. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bombay is just like garden. Yes. As good as your place here. No. Not so big. It is seventeen acres, and Bombay is five. ( prasādam being served) So, just go on. Give him whatever you have got, give. But don't give much. When he wants something more . . . "Waste not, want not." Give more. That preparation, you can give more. (laughter) George Harrison: Is that cauliflower? Prabhupāda: No. That is called . . . (indistinct) . . . you can bring it, prasāda . George Harrison: I'll just wash my hands. Prabhupāda: You can wash here. The sink is there. Here is also water. So you can put the bowls outside, yes, so that there will be sufficient place. Our Indian system is like that. That's all right. You sit down. You also sit down. Mukunda: You get a towel? George Harrison: Yes, thanks. Prabhupāda: Give him. George Harrison: I see you've done new books. You've been so busy, this is, so many books. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are already fifty*-four, and another at least thirty books I have to finish before my death. (laughs) That I am . . . (aside) Give him purī . Where is Ravi Shankar? George Harrison: He's in . . . I think he's in New York. He'll be here the first of August, and then I think he's . . . Prabhupāda: He has got his house there? In New York? George Harrison: No, just a house in Benares. Benares. He doesn't have anything. He just stays in hotels. Prabhupāda: I thought in Washington somebody told me that George Washing . . . George Harrison has got his house here. George Harrison: Yes, he had a little house here, but he . . . Prabhupāda: No, you have got your house in Washington? George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: No. (referring to prasādam ) Now we can begin. George Harrison: Okay, Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Gurudāsa: Nimbu*-pāni ? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. You give him two more samosās . He likes it. So now you can begin also. Yes. (background comments while prasādam served) All the boys and girls are so nicely qualified for Kṛṣṇa's service. George Harrison: They are looking better and better all the time. It's nice for me to see Gurudāsa. He's turning into a mountain. (laughter) Prabhupāda: His wife has also sannyāsī . . . (indistinct) . . . renounced. Have you seen her latest? George Harrison: No. *Prabhupāda: She has cut hair and white dress, living alone in the temple. Vairagya*-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam (CC Madhya 6.254). This bhakti-yoga means vairagya-vidyā , means detachment. That is the perfection of life. If we remain attached, that is conditional. Māyā has made so many things attractive so that we have to remain attached, and to come out of this attachment is called bhakti . (aside) So one man, you can sit down, you can eat. Pradyumna, you can eat. Pradyumna: I've taken some milk before, so . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, you don't require. Now you can eat, go on. Prasāda prapti mātrena. Our Jayatīrtha Prabhu is good manager. Management, looking after. Yes, he's very good manager, experienced. George Harrison: Hmm? Prabhupāda: He's experienced manager. Jayatīrtha: Not very good managing this place now. George Harrison: Well, it seems okay. Seems to be ticking over pretty good, peacefully. Prabhupāda: He was also managing Los Angeles. Yes. Now we have brought him here to see things nicely managed. George Harrison: It feels good, nice vibrations. Prabhupāda: Yes. One thing, Jayatīrtha, why don't you sprinkle this water in this ground? Jayatīrtha: Well, we do sprinkle it. Prabhupāda: Just have an ordinary pumping, and then it will be green. Jayatīrtha: There's a kind of a limit on the amount of water pressure you can get these days. Prabhupāda: Limit? George Harrison: It's been a drought in England. There's no . . . very little water. Prabhupāda: It is very dangerous. Everything is now yellow. Jayatīrtha: It's greener here than most places around, but . . . George Harrison: Everything's so dry this year, lot of trees and things dying without water. *Prabhupāda: That will be the punishment for this age. It is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . There will be scarcity of rain, and there will be scarcity of food, and heavy taxation by government. And people will become mad on account of these three things. Anāvṛṣṭi, durbhikṣa, kara-pīḍitāḥ (SB 12.2.9). George Harrison: It's getting dryer in England each year. It's like . . . it's probably going to end up as a desert in another hundred years. Prabhupāda: They expect like that? George Harrison: Well, I don't know. I think the whole world's changing. Somebody said it's the pollution, leave such . . . there's so much of the oceans now with polluted and with oil on the top, there's not so much evaporation anymore. Prabhupāda: Not in the ocean. It is the sinful activities of the populace. That is real problem. They are all engaged in sinful activities. Especially this innocent animal killing. These are the all reactions. Gurudāsa: In New York they had one island of refuse floated in to shore. Prabhupāda: Give him more samosās . Gurudāsa: For years they were building up island of refuse, and it floated in, and now no one can go to the beaches. Prabhupāda: Samosā . Where is samosā ? There is only one more left? George Harrison: I'm okay, actually. Devotee (2): There is sour cream. George Harrison: I've got plenty, thanks. Prabhupāda: Prasāda , we can eat up to the neck. (laughter) There is no harm. You'll never get indigestion. You have got some fruits? George Harrison: Yes. Mukunda: There's a very nice mango preparation there. Did you taste? George Harrison: Which one? Mukunda: The chilled mango. Looks like . . . (indistinct) George Harrison: Oh, this one. Prabhupāda: One German girl has prepared. We are introducing restaurant like this, and people are liking very much. We have got one restaurant in Hawaii, another restaurant we are organizing in Boston. That is being directly done by Alfred. You have met Alfred? Gurudāsa: Alfred Ford, the grandson of Henry Ford. George Harrison: No, I've never met him. *Prabhupāda: Oh. He is also very nice boy. Of course, younger than you. He's only twenty*-four years. What is your age now? *George Harrison: Thirty*-three. *Prabhupāda: Thirty*-three. That boy is also very nice young boy. Give Jayatīrtha? Huh? No? George Harrison: Do you feed everybody who comes Sunday? Gurudāsa: Hundreds. Prabhupāda: Sunday we have about five hundred to one thousand. Yes. George Harrison: So they must cook for days to feed all those people. Gurudāsa: No, day before, night before. George Harrison: Do they bring food as well? Gurudāsa: They bring grains or something like that, in bulk. *Prabhupāda: We had very gorgeous Ratha*-yātrā ceremony in New York last Sunday. George Harrison: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Sunday, eighteenth. Pusta Kṛṣṇa: A week ago yesterday. Gurudāsa: Last Sunday. Prabhupāda: Give . . . Gurudāsa: We fed about ten thousand that day. Prabhupāda: Cauliflower. Take little. George Harrison: I can't finish. (laughter) I'm trying to finish one so I can start on the next. I was sick also, lately. I had something, I went yellow. I had jaundice. Prabhupāda: Jaundice? George Harrison: Hmm. I don't know why. Just had food poisoning or something, and it affected my liver. Prabhupāda: Who cooks for you? George Harrison: Sometimes me, sometimes, ah . . . I don't know, I think we'd had some Chinese food. Prabhupāda: Oh, you should not take. George Harrison: But I was working as well, so I, you know, I think I was pretty tired. Prabhupāda: Better you cook simple food yourself and take it. George Harrison: The only thing I could eat was papaya. Prabhupāda: Papaya is very good, yes. (to prasādam servers) Give him, give him, give him. George Harrison: I still have . . . Prabhupāda: No, that is the different. Oh, all right. We are just attempting a big planetarium in Māyāpur. We have asked government to acquire land, 350 acres. That is negotiation are going on. We shall give a Vedic planetarium. George Harrison: Is that the one you were talking about? With all the . . . Prabhupāda: In the Fifth Canto. Gurudāsa: The planetarium will be 350 feet high and show the cosmology of the spiritual world and the material world. Prabhupāda: The construction will be like your Washington Capitol, like that. George Harrison: A big dome. Prabhupāda: Yes. Estimated eight crores of rupees. (pause) Prabhupāda: Is there any dahī preparation? Devotee (2): There's only one. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. Now, there is fruit. You . . . George Harrison: Very good. Fantastic. Hari-śauri: What would you like? Something of everything? Prabhupāda: Two pieces . . . George Harrison: Maybe just a little bit of, but now I'm not . . . thanks. That's fine. No, okay. Thanks, fine. That's enough, that's fine. Prabhupāda: That watermelon, you can give more. It is water. George Harrison: Now let me finish all of this. Prabhupāda: This is that mango preparation. George Harrison: Okay. Devotee (2): It's coming. Prabhupāda: You like that preparation? Yes. George Harrison: We used to have this with milk at Rishikesh. Every day they'd leave outside of the door. It's good. (pause) George Harrison: Do you, Mukunda, do you break even with all the costs, running cost? Do you do okay with all this food and fruit and stuff? Mukunda: Oh, yes. More than even. We have about thirteen hundred Life Members in the Indian community. And then when they come on the weekends they bring food, they bring these hundred pound donations, put money in the box. George Harrison: At one time you just had the Godhead and incense. Mukunda: Yes, now it's all public support. Jayatīrtha: We don't sell incense anymore. Mukunda: And the books we just sell for very little; we hardly make any money on them at all. Prabhupāda: Are you reading sometimes my books? Which one? George Harrison: Mainly Kṛṣṇa . Prabhupāda: That is the main book. (laughs) George Harrison: Mukunda gave me the new books, but there's so much in . . . ah, there's just so much to read. Prabhupāda: Philosophy. George Harrison: I don't know how anybody could have written it, it's difficult enough to read all that amount. Prabhupāda: Sometimes they are surprised how one man can write so many books, but it is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise is not possible. Humanly it is not possible. *Mukunda: That one series of books I brought you, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hari-śauri? There is no sweet melon. Mukunda: And every single word is written by hand, five hundred years ago. Prabhupāda: No sweet melon? (background comments about melon) You are in the same house? Hmm? George Harrison: Henley. Prabhupāda: Henley, yes. Very nice house. George Harrison: Hmm, very nice. I work from the house. I have a studio, recording studio in the house. So I don't have to go to London anymore. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have all arrangement there. That's very nice. How many acres? *George Harrison: It's about thirty*-five. Prabhupāda: Oh, very good area. Devotee (2): Did you get that other land? Mukunda: Yes, only five hundred pounds. Devotee (2): Really? Amazing. George Harrison: Five hundred pounds! Mukunda: Yes, for four acres. George Harrison: That's quite cheap. Mukunda: Yes, we were really surprised. But if it hadn't been for that, we'd have had no cow pasture. Cows are out there. Prabhupāda: We have got one cow—many cows in Philadelphia—the milk bags, she gives hundred and two pounds daily. George Harrison: Of milk? Who owns this? Who milks the cows? Gurudāsa: Some of the devotees. Prabhupāda: We have got tanks for storing milk. Tanks. George Harrison: Yes? *Prabhupāda: Yes. All up*-to-date refrigerator and everything. That extra milk they are selling. Similarly, in New Vrindavan we are getting one thousand pounds milk daily. One thousand pounds. Mukunda: That's our place in Virginia. George Harrison: How many cows? Must be hundreds of them. Prabhupāda: But the Philadelphia is more organized. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Through the nozzles, milk carrying, always hot water is washing it. Jayatīrtha: There's much better facility in that Pennsylvania place. New Vrindavan's kind of a . . . they built up from scratch by themselves. Gurudāsa: Rustic. Jayatīrtha: Yes, rustic is the word. (laughter) Pennsylvania, they bought this fabulous farm all made up. Prabhupāda: Pradyumna, give him little, this one here. George Harrison: Oh, no, no. Please, no more. I'm really full. I won't have to eat for a few days. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Sweets. George Harrison: Very well. Prabhupāda: Sweet will help you digest. Don't give three—at least four. George Harrison: I won't be able to eat much more. Prabhupāda: Three is given to the enemy. According to our Indian system, if you give somebody three, that means he is enemy. George Harrison: Oh, really? I always liked the number three. Prabhupāda: (laughs) You must give at least four. George Harrison: I like three, five, seven, nine. Those numbers. Prabhupāda: Tri-śatru What are the three enemies? Kāma, krodha . . . Pradyumna: Lobha . Gurudāsa: Lust, anger, greed. Three enemies Prabhupāda: Three enemies—lusty desire, anger and greediness. George Harrison: Yes. But there's a lot of nice threes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. Three. Three worlds: Svarga, Martya, Pātāla. Trinity. These are nice things. *George Harrison: Tri*-guṇa. *Prabhupāda: Tri*-guṇa , yes. Jayatīrtha: The three modes, they're not so nice. George Harrison: Well, they're all necessary. Jayatīrtha: Yes. George Harrison: I met, I think, one of your master's other devotees. I forget his name. Gosvāmī, big, in Vṛndāvana. Big, tall, with a staff, bald hair. Said you knew his name? Gurudāsa: Puruṣottama? George Harrison: Puruṣottama? Yes. Mukunda: In Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: He's not a sannyāsī . George Harrison: Pardon? Prabhupāda: He's not sannyāsī . George Harrison: Oh, well, the one I met had a staff. Maybe it was a different one. Gurudāsa: Mādhava Mahārāja maybe. Prabhupāda: Maybe Mādhava Mahārāja. Jayatīrtha: He's big. Prabhupāda: He's my Godbrother. George Harrison: Yes, but he didn't talk English. But all the people I was with said he spoke very good Sanskrit, had a good understanding of Sanskrit. But I couldn't understand anything that he . . . you know . . . I just watched him. Pradyumna: I think Puruṣottama Gosāi. Prabhupāda: He's talking of Puruṣottama. Pradyumna: Gosāi. Prabhupāda: He's blackish? George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: Not fair complexion. Puruṣottama. George Harrison: I think he was fair, but he was very tall, very big, and you know, like this, huge size. Well, he had a place where I stayed the night. Pradyumna: That's his place, Puruṣottama Gosāi. Gurudāsa: He's not a sannyāsī . Prabhupāda: He's not sannyāsī , he is householder. Jayatīrtha: He's married man. George Harrison: Yes, he had . . . his son lived there. Jayatīrtha: Yes. George Harrison: But maybe he's taken, I don't know. I thought he had a daṇḍa , one of those staffs. I saw the little temple in the garden, had the Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, where they stay in bed. It's like a bed like this. You know the one? Pradyumna: Nidhuvana Mandir. Prabhupāda: Nidhuvana. Gurudāsa: Nidhuvana Mandir. George Harrison: I saw that, where He's been out all night so He doesn't get up until ten o'clock in the morning. Prabhupāda: You have not seen our temple since it is inaugurated? No. George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: This time you come. Many thousand people come to see Deity. George Harrison: I saw the photograph, looks really nice. It's big. Gurudāsa: Now they say it's the most beautiful modern temple in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: You have seen our . . . there is any film of the temple? Gurudāsa: No, but there's photographs. Jayatīrtha: We have a nice photograph in the reception room downstairs. George Harrison: Actually it was half built. Gurudāsa: Yes. Even the building you went into, there's more, up, the roof. Prabhupāda: That courtyard is very beautiful. There is a tāmala tree. That is a very valuable tree. The Bisanchand Seth asked me to cut. Gurudāsa: Yes, I remember. Prabhupāda: What a nonsense, such a . . . Gurudāsa: I remember that. Prabhupāda: He has no idea. Now, on account of that tree, it looks so beautiful. Hari-śauri: Yes. It's very wonderful. The whole tree has flourished since the temple began. Gurudāsa: We planned the whole temple around that tree. The whole plans. George Harrison: It's a big old tree? Pradyumna: Tree's just in the courtyard of the temple, so we left it there. Gurudāsa: Tāmala tree is the same color as Kṛṣṇa, śyāma . Like a fresh rain cloud color. So when Rādhārāṇī sees the tree, She thinks of Kṛṣṇa. So when we see the tree we think of Kṛṣṇa. And Śrīla Prabhupāda sits underneath the tree and watches. Prabhupāda: Rādhārāṇī in separation was embracing that tree, tāmala tree. And they say that in Vṛndāvana, only there are four tāmala trees left. Gurudāsa: Yes, they've said four or six. Very few. George Harrison: Is this tree still living? Devotees: Yes, it's alive. George Harrison: (finishes prasādam ) My compliments to the chef. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is this water? Hari-śauri: Lemonade. Prabhupāda: Is there any more? Hari-śauri: I just took it out. I can get some. Prabhupāda: Bring little. George Harrison: I'll wash my hands. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: So I am very much pleased that you take so much trouble to come here. George Harrison: It's my pleasure. Prabhupāda: (to Hari-śauri) Yes, give me little for drinking. You want little more? George Harrison: Are you ever going to stop traveling? Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. I don't want, personally, but if Kṛṣṇa wants, that is everything. We have got now hundred and two centers, different parts of the world. George Harrison: Still six more to go. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) We have got a very nice house in Detroit. If you sometimes go there you'll see. George Harrison: Whereabouts? Prabhupāda: Detroit. George Harrison: Ah, Detroit. They need one there. Crazy place. Jayatīrtha: Heavy place. Prabhupāda: That house was constructed fifty years ago at the cost of six million dollar, and we have got it very cheap. Three hundred thousand dollars. George Harrison: Was it a big house? Hari-śauri: A very big mansion on the riverside. George Harrison: Colonial house? Prabhupāda: Not as big—four acres of land—but the building is very costly. One room will cost now three hundred thousand dollars. So nicely made. Hari-śauri: They estimated it would cost about fifteen million to build such a house now. George Harrison: Yes, they probably wouldn't even bother or be able to, at least. Is it an old house? Hari-śauri: Fifty years old. It's very solid though, very good condition as well. Prabhupāda: And on the house on bottom, there is river. Not directly, but an offshoot of river. People come, rowing. A very nice situation. And because it is black quarter, nobody was purchasing. So I said that "For us, what is black and white? Purchase it." So we got very cheap. At that time I paid them hundred and fifty thousand, and . . . (indistinct) . . . Elizabeth. We purchased. George Harrison: Did they have a temple in Hamburg? In Hamburg. I was there once, but they just had a little tiny house, and they were trying to get another. Prabhupāda: Hamburg, I think closed? Jayatīrtha: They have a place in Frankfurt, where the devotees are . . . just outside of Frankfurt. George Harrison: So they haven't got a place in Hamburg. Jayatīrtha: No, it's a heavy city. George Harrison: I was there one year when they were having fights. It's . . . Jayatīrtha: Rockers. It's a heavy place. Mukunda: Rockers. George Harrison: It is full of gangs. Prabhupāda: And we have got another palace . . . what is that village? Jayatīrtha: South of Paris? That one? Prabhupāda: No, France. Jayatīrtha: Yes, south of Paris. It's near a place called Valencay. Very nice place. Pradyumna: French chateau. Mukunda: It's on about 250 acres. George Harrison: Really? Mukunda: Huge fields, beautiful place. I'll show you a picture of it. George Harrison: Yes. So that was the goal, isn't it? One hundred and eight temples. Jayatīrtha: Should be able to do it this year, I think. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: We should have a hundred and eight this year, I think. Hari-śauri: Centers. One hundred and eight centers. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: Temples and farms. Prabhupāda: But we want worker. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is giving us so many centers. Yes. In India I can get so many places, but how to manage? Simply taking from persons, and if I cannot manage nicely, that does not look well. Therefore I say first of all get men, then take donation, there is no harm. How many devotees were living here? Jayatīrtha: There's about a hundred, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, then it is all right. And if there was no devotees, ten devotees, then how could we manage? Jayatīrtha: We have about fifteen devotees that work full time on the grounds. Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty sprinkling water that quarter? It is costly? Jayatīrtha: We'll try to sprinkle more, but there's a lack of water pressure. Prabhupāda: No, pressure, by pump. George Harrison: That's what we have. We had a little Honda pump, but you had to start it off. It's a gasoline engine, I think. And put one pipe into the lake and just pump out of the lake, and then you have a sprinkler on the other side. Makes a noise, though, that's the only thing. Makes a noise and gives off an exhaust. Prabhupāda: A pump for, say, one hour, two hour. George Harrison: You could use the water out of the lake, then nobody could really complain about that. Jayatīrtha: That's how we'd have to do it, I think. George Harrison: That probably wouldn't be enough . . . it wouldn't take the level down too much. How do you fill that up? Mukunda: That's a natural watershed. This is the lowest place in the area in about four miles every direction. So we have all those underground water tables feeding it. Prabhupāda: If there is rain then there is no scarcity of water. The water comes here. Yes. George Harrison: But how, when you drain it, then how did you stop it from filling up? Mukunda: Well, it did fill up in the winter quite a bit, but then in the summer it went back down. It's filled up now—we had to use city water to get it started. But as soon as it rains it goes up about this far. Jayatīrtha: It's evaporated about six inches since. Mukunda: You don't have a well in your place? George Harrison: No, just, well, that bore pond. Originally the lakes all were filled just like this as well as flooding the drains, and when it rained off the house everything would go. And we have a big storage tank, and then there's ballcocks, and underneath that big bank of rhododendrons was like a room built there, which was a storage tank. Then any other water he must have used just from the mains. But these days, you know, they have meters on the mains, so you have to pay for every gallon. Mukunda: What about getting those water diviners to come and find water? George Harrison: Well, you can find it I think anywhere if you just bore a hole. So what we did was just bore at the end of the lake. But you have to go down to the depth of the riverbed, and there there's not much water because the rain. It's all chalk and limestone, so the rain . . . that's the problem with watering in the summer, if you put water . . . Prabhupāda: From your house the river is near? George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Thames? George Harrison: Yes. But then the Thames is here, and we're up on the hill, so we bored a hole right down to the three hundred feet, I think, three hundred and fifty feet, to the level of the river, and then a pump, we can pump that. But when it does rain or if you do water the ground, it's all so chalky that it runs right through it. So it's hard to keep a lot of moisture in the water. But also at the same time all the rain water runs through. When it hits the rock level of the riverbed, there must be tons of water down there. We can pump out of there all day long for months on end, and nothing seems to dry up. Jayatīrtha: Fantastic. Mukunda: You could even do it by hand if you were out of electricity. George Harrison: I mean the hole is . . . the bore hole is actually only about this wide. You can have a little bucket. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: You have to apply for permission, actually, to dig a well, but around here at least you have to get permission. George Harrison: You have to. We did too. You have to put your name on a list, on a public notice in the local papers, and if somebody wants to complain about it, then they have a chance to. And once it's been up there for a few days or a week or something, and if nobody's made any formal complaint for any reason, like maybe they've got one, a bore hole, and you may be tampering there, so then you just go ahead. You know it's all approved, and then your name goes on the list someplace in the county surveyor's office. So you do have to go through a, you know, a couple of months of waiting. Just to, say, bore a hole to replenish, Jayatīrtha: Costs a lot of money for water around here. George Harrison: And you have to just pay for the cost of the bore hole and the pump, to lay out electricity to where the pump is. The pump is, you know, just in the ground. You can't even see it. You know, by that weeping willow tree? Prabhupāda: So if you want to take little rest, we can arrange for that. Resting. George Harrison: Rest? Prabhupāda: Yes, for you. George Harrison: No, no. Jayatīrtha: I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you want to rest. Prabhupāda: No. George Harrison: You take a rest. *Prabhupāda: I am taking rest now these twenty*-four hours. Now I have no other business than to take rest. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: Always resting at the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is real rest. *The Mukunda*-māla-stotra . . . there was a big emperor . . . (indistinct) . . . Kulaśekhara, Emperor Kulaśekhara, he was a great devotee. So he wrote some poetry. Formerly, kings were so advanced, rajarṣi . They are king, at the same time, saintly persons. In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2): this science of Bhagavad-gītā was learned by the rājarṣis . People were happy therefore. The head, or the executive, they were all saintly persons. So this Kulaśekhara, he writes in the beginning of his poetry, "Kṛṣṇa, O Kṛṣṇa . . ." Kṛṣṇa tvādīya-pada-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam . The paṅkaja means lotus flower. So Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet is just like lotus flower. The lotus flower has stem down, and the swans, they take pleasure to go down the water and entangled by the stem. Have you seen their pleasure? Yes. That is their great sporting, to be entangled by the stem and come out, in this way, go deep. This is their sporting. *So this Kulaśekhara is praying, "My Lord Kṛṣṇa, let my swan of mind be entangled with the stem of Your lotus feet." Kṛṣṇa tvādīya*-pada-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam adyaiva : "immediately"— viśatu —"let enter." Who? Adyaiva viśatu me , "my," mānasa-rāja-haṁsaḥ , "my mind, which is just like a swan." So why adyaiva , immediately? He says that prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye, "At the time of death," prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye kapha-vāta-pittaiḥ , "when the physical condition of the body will be in disorder," kapha, pitta, vayu will be not in order . . . prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye kapha-vāta-pittaiḥ kaṇṭhāvarodha , "At that time I shall not be able to speak. I'll ahn, ahn, but that's all. So I may not be able to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Better I am now in good health, so let my mind be entangled in the stem of Your lotus feet." Very nice poetry. *"At that time I may be not able to utter 'Kṛṣṇa' or think of You, and now I am healthy, let me finish this business." That means "Let me die immediately. Now I'm healthy, I'm quite fit." This is the ideal. Ante nārāyaṇa*-smṛtiḥ (SB 2.1.6). At the time of death, if one remembers Kṛṣṇa, then his life is successful. Immediately he goes to Kṛṣṇa. Just like Ajāmila. He chanted "Nārāyaṇa," and immediately his path to Vaikuṇṭha become clear. So this practice means, whatever we practice all through life, there is chance of coming that remembrance at the time of death, and then it is successful, life is success. If at the time of death one can remember Kṛṣṇa, then his whole life is successful. Our one student, Kārtikeya, his mother was very fortunate. So his mother had nothing to do with this Society, but the boy was attached, and she heard several times "Kṛṣṇa," that this boy is attached to Kṛṣṇa. At the time of her death, she asked her son, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" and died. Just see how fortunate she is. She simply uttered this word, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" then she died. Very fortunate. So on account of her son she got salvation. Yes. Otherwise, Kārtikeya told me that he went to see his mother, and the mother was going to ball dance, and the mother did not receive him well. "All right, you sit down. I'll come again." She was such lady. But by Kṛṣṇa's grace, at the time of death, she inquired her son, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" That's . . . (indistinct) . . . very fortunate. George Harrison: When my mother died I had to send my sister and father out of the room, because they were getting emotional, and I just chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: She chanted. George Harrison: I did. Prabhupāda: Oh, very nice. So she could hear? George Harrison: I don't know, I don't know. She was in like a coma or something. It was the only thing I could think of. Prabhupāda: When it happened? George Harrison: In 1970. It was the only thing I could think of that may be of value, you know. Prabhupāda: Anyway, if she has heard Hare Kṛṣṇa, she'll get benefitted. Either she chants or somebody chanting, if she hears, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam, both the same thing. Little chance. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). So let us practice in such a way that at the time of death we may remember. That is success. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). So you are reading Kṛṣṇa repeatedly? *Kṛṣṇa Book* you are reading repeatedly? George Harrison: Well, you know, I read it every so often. I always take the *Gītā* with me wherever I go. I mean that's the one I just keep all the time. But you know, I'll just sometimes read a little of something, a little bit of something else. I've never been a great reader. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, you have got chance here to think soberly. But on account of your chanting "Kṛṣṇa," so many people are chanting. George Harrison: I don't think it's on my account. Prabhupāda: No, they say: "George chants Hare Kṛṣṇa." They say. Do they not? Mukunda: Yes. Prabhupāda: And you have got many thousand followers. George Harrison: Well It's nice, but I think we all . . . *Prabhupāda: Anyway, you go on chanting. That will influence. There is a poetry written by, I think in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , where the Rupa Gosvāmī is wondering, "I do not know what sweetness there in these two words, Kṛṣ-ṇa ." Gurudāsa: The verse starts with priyo , "dear." *Prabhupāda: Varna*-dvayī. You remember this verse? No, jane . "What kind of nectar it is there in these two words, Kṛṣ-ṇa ?" You have seen Deity today? No, it was closed. George Harrison: It was closed. Jayatīrtha: It's open again now. Prabhupāda: When it is open? Jayatīrtha: It's open now. The ārati is going on, the afternoon ārati . Prabhupāda: Oh. Sometimes you can come and stay here, see the ārati , at least one day, whole program, how they are doing. What is the program whole day? *Jayatīrtha: It starts at four*-fifteen, here. Prabhupāda: Morning. *Jayatīrtha: Yes, with the ārati , and then we worship Tulasī*-devī, chant japa and then have class, and then prasādam , eight-fifteen. Then during the day we all work, and in the evening again, seven o'clock, everyone comes together for the ārati , class. George Harrison: How is that school in Texas, you know, with all the children? Hari-śauri: That's gurukula . Jayatīrtha: They have about six schools now. One's at this place in France, they have a school there, this farm. And Dallas, and Los Angeles, Pennsylvania, Māyāpur. Hari-śauri: Vṛndāvana gurukula also was started. George Harrison: There's all kinds of strange things written in those newspapers, Dallas, strange things. Particularly about the little children's school. Hari-śauri: It's because they don't bother to find out before they write things. Gurudāsa: Just like they said that the children sleep in the basement. That's because it was in the hot summer. Everyone goes to the basement in the summer in Dallas. Mukunda: The kids don't feel any difficulty at all sleeping on the floor. Children are naturally austere. It's just after you get to a certain age the conditioning affects you. Devotee: They said they live without furniture. (laughter) Gurudāsa: They're prejudiced about those things. Jayatīrtha: They have to eat with their hands. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You have got the last copy of Seventh Canto? Hari-śauri: Seven, Three? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mukunda: There's some books that came out since I brought those last books. George Harrison: There's also somebody, I think it was a guy who was trying to get his wife back or something. (laughs) I know it was in California . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was saying, "They've stolen my wife." These stories kill me. I mean, it's so funny because the way (indistinct conversation with devotees). Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, brahmacārī gurukule . Hari-śauri: I think that's in Seven, Two. Seven, One or Seven, Two. Harikeśa: Sixteenth Chapter, first verse, I think. It's the first verse, brahmacārī gurukule. Jayatīrtha: One man came to the temple, he heard that his daughter had participated in one of our fire sacrifices, and he was afraid that . . . George Harrison: Fire sacrifices? Jayatīrtha: When we have initiations we have a fire sacrifice. He was afraid that she had been sacrificed. (laughter) Hari-śauri: "Nārada Muni said, A student should practice completely controlling his senses. He should be submissive and should have an attitude of firm friendship for the spiritual master. With a great vow, the brahmacārī should live in the gurukula , only for the benefit of the guru ." Prabhupāda: Next. Pradyumna: "At both junctions of day, namely, in the early morning and in the evening, he should be fully absorbed in thoughts of the spiritual master, fire, the sun god and Lord Viṣṇu, and by chanting the Gāyatrī mantra he should worship them." Prabhupāda: Go on reading. Pradyumna: "Being called by the spiritual master, the student should study the Vedic mantras regularly. Every day, before beginning his studies and at the end of his studies, the disciple should respectfully offer obeisances unto the spiritual master." "Carrying pure kuṣa grass in his hand, the brahmacārī should dress regularly with a belt of straw and with deerskin garments. He should wear matted hair, carry a rod and waterpot, and be decorated with a sacred thread, as recommended in the śāstras ." "The brahmacārī should go out morning and evening to collect alms, and he should offer all that he collects to the spiritual master. He should eat only if ordered to take food by the spiritual master; otherwise, if the spiritual master does not give this order, he may sometimes have to fast." "A brahmacārī should be quite well behaved and gentle and should not eat or collect more than necessary. He must always be active and expert, fully believing in the instructions of the spiritual master and the sastra . Fully controlling his senses, he should associate only as much as necessary with women or those controlled by women." "A brahmacārī , or one who has not accepted the grhastha āśrama , or family life, must rigidly avoid talking with women or about women, for the senses are so powerful that they may agitate even the mind of a sannyāsī , a member of the renounced order of life." "If the wife of the spiritual master is young, a young brahmacārī should not allow her to care for his hair, massage his body with oil, or bathe him with affection like a mother." "Woman is compared to fire, and man is compared to a butter pot. Therefore a man should avoid associating even with his own daughter in a secluded place. Similarly, he should also avoid association with other women. One should associate with women only for important business and not otherwise." *"As long as a living entity is not completely self*-realized—as long as he is not independent of the misconception of identifying with his body, which is nothing but a reflection of the original body and senses—he cannot be relieved of the conception of duality, which is epitomized by the duality between a man and woman. Thus there is every chance that he will fall down because his intelligence is bewildered." "All the rules and regulations apply equally to the householder and the sannyāsī , the member of the renounced order of life. The grhastha , however, is given permission by the spiritual master to indulge in sex during the period favorable for procreation." " Brahmacārīs or grhasthas who have taken the vow of celibacy as described above should not indulge in the following: applying powder or ointment to the eyes, massaging the head with oil, massaging the body with the hands, seeing a woman or painting a woman's picture, eating meat, drinking wine, decorating the body with flower garlands, smearing scented ointment on the body, or decorating the body with ornaments. These they should give up." *"According to the rules and regulations mentioned above, one who is twice*-born, namely a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya or vaiśya , should reside in the gurukula under the care of the spiritual master. There he should study and learn all the Vedic literatures along with their supplements and the Upaniṣads , according to his ability and power to study. If possible, the student or disciple should reward the spiritual master with the remuneration the spiritual master requests, and then, following the master's order, the disciple should leave and accept one of the other āśramas , namely the gṛhastha āśrama, vānaprastha āśrama or sannyāsa āśrama, as he desires." Prabhupāda: So this is my copy? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: You can give. Hari-śauri: This is Prabhupāda's latest book just came out. George Harrison: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What was it he was saying? I thought you were going to read out of here something about Kṛṣ-ṇa , the two . . . Pradyumna: This was about the brahmacārī in the gurukula , in the school, what a young child should learn to practice. George Harrison: Yes. But I thought you were saying something about the sound of the two sounds of Kṛṣ and ṇa . *Prabhupāda: Ah, kṛṣṇeti varṇa*-dvayī (CC Antya 1.99). Gurudāsa: Ah, yes. "I wish I had ten thousand ears to hear the sweet sound of Kṛṣṇa, and ten thousand tongues to say it." George Harrison: So this isn't . . . I didn't get this one? Mukunda: Not yet, no. That's latest. It just came out. George Harrison: Seventh Canto, Part Three. Hari-śauri: They bring the first two copies to Śrīla Prabhupāda wherever he is. So this we got in New York just before we left. Gurudāsa: It's right off the press. Mukunda: Look at the pictures in the . . . Prabhupāda: These pictures are made by our boys. George Harrison: Yes, beautiful. Prabhupāda: They are learning more and more. Hari-śauri: This one is very good because it explains the breakdown of the social positions. George Harrison: Hmm? Hari-śauri: The varṇāśrama system. It's very good. *Prabhupāda: This instruction of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam was never given before in the Western countries. This is the first time. George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore they're appreciating. We are selling our book daily sixty thousand dollars. George Harrison: Really? Prabhupāda: Yes. All over the world. Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you're going to outdo Shakespeare soon. You'll have written more English words than William Shakespeare. (Prabhupāda laughs) Maybe you already have. *Hari-śauri: I don't think Shakespeare's brought out fifty*-six books. Mukunda: The Encyclopaedia Britannica wrote to us asking for . . . Prabhupāda: They have said . . . George Harrison: These books are such a lot of work. I don't know how he did it all. Gurudāsa: While everyone else sleeps, Prabhupāda's . . . George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: At night I don't sleep. Not that because I am nowadays sick. But generally I don't sleep. Utmost two hours. Utmost. Hari-śauri: I think it's a long time since you've taken any rest at night. Prabhupāda: I take little rest during daytime. So on the whole, three to four hours. But actually I do not like to sleep. George Harrison: No, it's a waste of time. Prabhupāda: I think it is, when I go to sleep, I think that now I'm going to waste my time. I actually think like that. George Harrison: What's the word for . . . the call it the little . . . little death. Sleep is the little death. Prabhupāda: The śāstra also, Prahlāda Mahārāja describe the sleeping is waste of time. (aside) You find out that verse. Hari-śauri: It's in Seven, Two? Prabhupāda: Seventh Canto. He's estimating you have got hundred years age, utmost. Out of that, fifty years lost, sleep. And then twenty years playing as child, a boy. And in old age, another . . . Hari-śauri: "Every human being has a maximum duration of life of one hundred years, but for one who cannot control his senses, half of those years are completely lost because at night he sleeps twelve hours, being covered by ignorance. Therefore such a person has a lifetime of only fifty years." Prabhupāda: Fifty years immediately minus. Then out of the fifty years? Hari-śauri: "In the tender age of childhood, when everyone is bewildered, one passes ten years. Similarly, in boyhood, engaged in sporting and playing, one passes another ten years. In this way, twenty years are wasted. Similarly, in old age, when one is an invalid, unable to perform even material activities, one passes another twenty years wastefully." "One whose mind and senses are uncontrolled becomes increasingly attached to family life because of insatiable lusty desires and very strong illusion. In such a madman's life the remaining years are also wasted, because even during those years he cannot engage himself in devotional service." Prabhupāda: So hundred years finished. (laughs) Fifty years, twenty years, twenty years and ten years. George Harrison: Which volume is that? Hari-śauri: This is the one before that one. George Harrison: Part Two. Hari-śauri: Yes. This is Prahlāda Mahārāja's instructions. Prabhupāda: You can give that volume also. George Harrison: Did you . . . do you . . . I'm not too sure which ones I've got up to. Mukunda: He's got up to . . . you've got about two more coming before that. I'll give them to you before you go, to make sure. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa varṇa*-dvayī , you have got that? *Jayatīrtha: I found that verse. Actually, Rañcor found it. Tuṇḍe tāṇḍavinī ratim vitanute tuṇḍāvalī*-ladbhaye. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna? You just note down this verse and give him. Jayatīrtha: And the translation is "I do not know how much nectar the two syllables kṛṣ-ṇa have produced. When the holy name of Kṛṣṇa is chanted, it appears to dance within the mouth. We then desire many, many mouths. When that name enters the holes of the ears, we desire many millions of ears. And when the holy name dances in the courtyard of the heart, it conquers the activities of the mind, and therefore all the senses become inert." That was Rupa Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: That is very nice poetry. Read it again. Tuṇḍe tāṇḍavinī . . . Jayatīrtha: The English? I don't chant very well. Harikeśa Mahārāja chants nicely. Prabhupāda: Yes, you first of all recite. Very nice. (background talking) Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: One thing, you can record and give him. Hari-śauri: I'll make a copy of this tape and give it to him. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, you should recite very properly, and then it will recorded. Then it will be right. Pradyumna: This is Sanskrit. Jayatīrtha: That's Sanskrit? It's written in Bengali characters. I see. Prabhupāda: In India, all different states they have got different alphabets, but the Sanskrit is the same. There is no change in Sanskrit. India's culture, all the provinces, they talk a little . . . (indistinct) . . . if you chant this mantra according to the Sanskrit tune, oh, your admirers will take it very nicely. (laughter) And that will be a great benefit to the mass of people. George Harrison: I don't know if they'd like it. Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll like. (laughs) George Harrison: They don't understand. Already they don't understand such a lot. Even if you say it in English. Even when you say things to them in English, they don't understand. Prabhupāda: That word Kṛṣṇa, if they hear, that will be sufficient. George Harrison: (indistinct comments with devotees) We were in Vṛndāvana, somebody, we were singing in the morning, singing this " Jaya Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. George Harrison: And he asked, this person said to me, "You should make it into a song in English." So I wrote English verses, and in each chorus it has " jaya kṛṣṇa, jaya kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa, jaya kṛṣṇa, jaya śrī kṛṣṇa; jaya rādhe, jaya rādhe, rādhe, jaya rādhe, jaya śrī rādhe ." I don't know, did you . . . if you heard that song. It was on that "Extra Texture"—you know that one? "He who . . ." I wrote the English words. "He whose eyes have seen what our lives have been, and who we really are—it is He, jaya śrī kṛṣṇa. " And then it has a chorus. "He whose sweetness flows to any one of those that cares to look His way, see His smile, jaya śrī rādhe, " then the chorus again. Mukunda: This is on George's new record. George Harrison: No, it was last year. And "He who is complete, three worlds at His feet, cause of every star, it is He, jaya Śrī Kṛṣṇa ." It's a nice song. But I took the old, the tune that we sang in Vṛndāvana, and just made slightly different, you know, with chords, chord patterns. Prabhupāda: So in your next record, you can give this. (laughter) George Harrison: (break) . . . this little girl, he had a baby girl and was trying to think of a name, so I told him to call it Dhara, you know? 'Cause from Rādhā— rādhārādhārādhā —it becomes dhārā. So he called his girl that name. Jayatīrtha: There's a story of Vālmīki. You know that story? Gurudāsa: Mārāmārāmārāmārāmārāmārā . Jayatīrtha: Vālmīki was a murderer, or a dacoit, thief. So he was met by Nārada Muni, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, Vālmīki. Jayatīrtha: And he was advised by Nārada Muni to please chant the holy name of the Lord and give up this thievery. So he wouldn't. So instead Nārada Muni said: "You chant mārā ." Mārā means death. So he agreed. Prabhupāda: Mārāmārā—rāma. Jayatīrtha: Later on, this Vālmīki he wrote the *Rāmāyaṇa* after having chanting rāma . . . mārā , he became purified. Hari-śauri: Transcendental trickery. Jayatīrtha: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Long live. (everyone leaves) (end) Prabhupāda: He is so monied man. He cannot get nice food even, the primary necessities. And getting jaundice. Hari-śauri: He had jaundice? Jayatīrtha: Yes, he just recovered from jaundice. Thinks he was poisoned by something he ate. The main reason why he doesn't . . . he got jaundice because, he admitted this that he had Ravi Shankar's brother cooking for him. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: He had one Kumar Shankar, the brother of Ravi Shankar, is cooking for him. So this man is a demon; therefore he is becoming sick. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they are all drunkards, all third*-class men, fourth-class men, low-class men. In India, this naṭas , they are third class, fourth class. Naṭas means the artist—singer, dancers. They are meant for the fourth-class, fifth-class men. It was never taken by the . . . they are called, and they will expertly sing, dance, in some festival. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas , they were not doing that. Still in India there is a class, very expert in dancing, singing. Low class. Their hereditary business is like that. Bhagavān: So you have given everything. You have given all the structure. We have to present it rightly. *Prabhupāda: Even, say, hundred years ago, that Girish Chandra Ghosh, he wanted to introduce theatrical performances, imitating the European theatrical performances, man and woman taking part. So he wanted to invite woman artist. Not a single woman joined. Who will go to public stage to dance, respectable girl? They'll never. That is hundred years. I am speaking, say, about forty years ago. In one of our community, the girl was to be married, and it is the custom in India, the bridegroom's party comes to see the girl, whether she is right. Similarly, the girl's party goes to see the . . . so they came to see one of my friend's daughter. The daughter is very beautiful, rich man's daughter. So one of the bridegroom party questioned, "You know how to dance?" That was his question to the girl: "You have learned something about dancing and singing?" So she was my friend's daughter, my, that friend, Mukunda Mullik. His elder brother was there. He became very angry that, "This rascal is asking our daughter whether she knows dancing and singing." She took it as . . . he took it as insult that, "Respectable family, daughter should learn how to dance, and sing?" So immediately he protested, "No, no, no, she does not know how to dance, how to sing. She's not meant for that purpose. We like, of course, a young girl dancing and singing, but we cannot teach our family members. We spend for that outside. You cannot expect our Mullik's family daughter dancing and singing. No." He is very persistent. Actually that is . . . dancing? Singing? What is this nonsense? For a respectable family? It is meant for the low*-class professional. Pay them, they will dance. Or go to some prostitute. She will dance. So he said that "We have got some taste for dancing, but not that our family members should do that. We pay for that outside." So this art . . . and among the theatrical, Girish Chandra Ghosh could not get a single response from any respectable family. Then he had to seek some young girls from the prostitute class. They became later on famous artists, Kusumkamali Dasi, this Dasi . . . nowadays it has become a fashion that aristocratic family should join this cinema and spoil their character. Otherwise it was meant for the . . . no respectable man. You find the Bhāgavata description, especially for these professional who would come. They'll take their reward. Bhagavān: This class is very influential today, this cinema artist, performer. Whenever there's a Presidential race . . . Prabhupāda: Just like George. What is his value? He's artist, that's all. From educational point of view, from other things view, he does not know anything. But he has got some money on account of his artistic payment, and he's big man, that's all. Somehow or other get money, you become a big man. There is no question of culture or anything. That is stated in the Bhāgavata . The money will be the criterion—no family, culture, education. These things will not be taken into account. If you have got money, then you are big man. Never mind what you are. Therefore people are after money. Who is going to be Brahmin ? If you become a perfect Brahmin , who will care for you? Nobody is interested to become a Brahmin . "Why we shall become Brahmin , starve? For starvation?" Nowadays in the college, they're not interested in art, philosophy, English literature. No, they . . . nobody. They go for technical, how they will get more money. They do not want. Some of the doctor, professor, they came to request us to give our student. They are not getting student. And after few years they'll be all dismissed. Who will pay them? Hayagrīva told me, he's not getting any job. There is another, Mr. . . . Dr. Henderson. He's also not getting any job. He's selling incense. And Bon Mahārāja, his institute is suffering from the very beginning till now, simply begging, begging and paying, paying the professor. No student. First of all he started Vaiṣṇava philosophy, so doctorate, Ph.D. So especially in India, who is going to take Ph.D. in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and starve? So this is failure. It is already failure, but he is persistent. Bhagavān: Therefore people are very surprised we are not starving. Prabhupāda: Why we shall starve? Bhagavān: We are not starving. Prabhupāda: We are, rather, inviting, "Come here, live comfortably, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then what is the difference between Kṛṣṇa's state and ordinary state? When I see so many young boys are taking prasādam , I become so happy that they are having prasādam and good chance for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. They are living in the best house. Bhagavān: Even the churches, they are not feeding people like this. They have so much money. *Prabhupāda: They do not know whose money, how to spend it. Bokā*-loka. (pause) Prabhupāda: In the evening I took that watermelon juice? That created havoc whole night. I think so. So for breakfast you can prepare that soup, the little. Just put vegetable soup. Jayatīrtha: Vegetable soup. Prabhupāda: That's all. Hari-śauri: Nothing else? No fruits? Prabhupāda: You can keep; if I like I can take. But the vegetable soup. Hari-śauri: What time would you like breakfast? Prabhupāda: Half past seven, eight. We are publishing one book, Dialectic Spiritualism. What is that? Jayatīrtha: Harikeśa Mahārāja's book. Bhagavān: No, no. Another one Prabhupāda's spoke. Hari-śauri: The philosophy book. Jayatīrtha: Oh, the philosophy book will be called Dialectic Spiritualism ? Ah, very good title. Hari-śauri: A Vedic View of Western Philosophy . Jayatīrtha: Very good title. *Prabhupāda: That's a fact. If one actually interested in real philosophy, they must come to spiritualism. Ātma*-tattvam. That is ātma-tattvam. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam ( SB 5.5.5). So long they do not come to this platform of understanding ātma-tattva , whatever rascal they are doing, simply defeat, that's all. Parābhava . Simply frustration and defeat. This very word, parābhava , means defeat. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ . Why he's defeated? Abodha-jātaḥ. Because by birth he's a rascal. Abodha-jātaḥ . And this will continue, yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam . So long he's not enlightened to inquire about spirit and the science of spirit, he'll remain in that, that, what is called, defeat position or conquered position. So we have to now increase our scope. Everything we have got. If you don't come to this platform, ātma-tattva , then your all attempt will be defeat. You are already defeated, frustrated. Simply struggling, that's all. Either take the capitalist or Communist, who has conquered? Everyone is defeated. One party may be proud that, "We have been victorious." What victory you have got? What is the victory? Not that the Communist countries, they are all happy. This is not the fact. Then where is your victory? Simply beating the drum that they have got victory, victory? "We have gone to moon planet. We have gone to Mars." Cheating innocent public. Is that victory? (pause) Prabhupāda: The girls are working that side? No. Hari-śauri: No, they won't come for another half hour yet. Jayatīrtha: They can come earlier if you like. They can come any time you like. Prabhupāda: No. No, I have no objection. What is that? They'll work that side, I'll sit down here. Jayatīrtha: They should come now. (leaves room) Prabhupāda: Yes. Our program is solid, but if we have to argue with animals, that is a different thing. Otherwise any human being, they will accept. But the modern civilization means to keep the people in general in animal platform, that's all, and cheat them. (pause) Bhagavān: Most of the people who . . . they are becoming attracted to this Communist philosophy, they have no idea how to practically apply it. All they are seeing is "It is an opportunity to take from the rich and give me to enjoy." But they are not seeing any scope of community cooperation. This is all impractical. They are seeing, "I will get money from my boss. I will take his wealth and distribute." They are simply materialists. Prabhupāda: That also "Distribute for me. More share for me." (laughs) Now there is drought; there is no rain. What the capitalists or Communists can do in this connection? If they are able to present any program how to counteract? Then where is your progress? When there is some calamity, you both of you are simply looking. That's all. You cannot do anything. Then where is your progress? Hari-śauri: The reason why the Russians were buying wheat from America . . . Prabhupāda: Yes? Hari-śauri: . . . because they had no rain. All their crops failed. Jayatīrtha: Not only that, people aren't inclined to work very hard. The farmers are not very enthusiastic to work very hard, because they work very hard, but they have to give all the fruit away. So because they are karmīs , they want the fruit. The state is taking the fruit, therefore they don't want to work. Prabhupāda: Why they shall work? Jayatīrtha: They have no incentive. Prabhupāda: "I'll work and you'll enjoy. Why shall we work?" That is natural tendency. This can be possible only for Kṛṣṇa. "I'll work; Kṛṣṇa will enjoy." That's all. That is only possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jayatīrtha: That's a fact. Therefore it's the only practical communism. *Prabhupāda: "I shall fight, give my all best, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied." . . . (indistinct) . . . Arjuna for his personal, he did not . . . decline, but when he saw that, "Kṛṣṇa wants it? All right." That is kṛṣṇa*-prema. "Never mind I shall be aggrieved by killing my kinsmen, but Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. That's all right." This is Kṛṣṇa philosophy. We cannot find this philosophy in the material world that, "I shall work, and so many will be satisfied." That is not possible. "If I work, I must be satisfied." So these Communists, they will work according to . . . everyone will show that "I have no capacity." So the production will reduce, and they'll have to beg. *Jayatīrtha: They've had to introduce capitalistic*-type incentives in many of the Communist countries in order to induce the people to work. Prabhupāda: Not capitalistic. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. They'll have to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa, and for Kṛṣṇa, they are prepared to do anything. That is philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first class, Vaiṣṇava. Yenātmā suprasīdati . Who knows this verse? Find out this verse. *Bhagavān: Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo ? First Canto. "The first*-class occupation is that which brings love of God. When uninterested, unmotivated, it brings satisfaction." Prabhupāda: Yes. Who will understand this philosophy? Harikeśa: "The supreme occupation, dharma' , for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self." Prabhupāda: So the Communist teaching that, "You love Lenin," and the capitalist teaching that, "You love Washington," so nobody's satisfied. Unless the love comes to Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of satisfied. Jayatīrtha: There's no reciprocation. Prabhupāda: Anyway, there must be defect because the love is reposed in some defective or imperfect personality. It may be Lenin or it may be Washington, it doesn't matter. He's imperfect. (bell rings) Harikeśa: Who's that? Hari-śauri: They're cleaning. Harikeśa: By accident they must have pushed it. Prabhupāda: Love is there. Otherwise why so many people are working? But because it is misplaced, they are not satisfied. Therefore it is stated, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Adhokṣaje , this word, is used. God . . . they may say that, "Where is God?" And therefore the word is used, adhokṣaje : "beyond your sense perception." Everything is within sense perception. So therefore this very word is used that, "You cannot see, you cannot perceive, but still you have to love Him." Adhokṣaje . They say, therefore, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is some ideal, imagination, Kṛṣṇa. They think . . . they say: "They have an imaginary form of Kṛṣṇa, a stone, and unnecessarily they are wasting their time, loving Kṛṣṇa." What is their theory? You know that? Harikeśa: Some people think. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are some. They are not all. Even they criticize that, "You cannot see Kṛṣṇa," so similar argument can be, "You do not see Lenin. Why you are worshiping?" That's it. "Is Lenin present before you? So why you are worshiping?" You'll see. You have got, in Moscow got, every street corner a big picture. Harikeśa: They're trying to replace everybody's desire to worship some greater authority. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, but if you or somebody argues, "Where is Lenin? You are . . . why you are worshiping? You cannot see Lenin." Because they say, "Where is your Kṛṣṇa? You are worshiping a statue," so we can say the same thing, "Where is your Lenin? The statue, it is?" In the airport station, street crossing and everywhere there is picture. And they go to worship Lenin's tomb every day. Many other fools also go there, tourists, that Red Square. They tried in India for Jawaharlal's tomb, for Gandhi's tomb. So in the beginning there was little crowd. Now nobody goes. But Vṛndāvana, Govindajī's temple, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple? Without invitation—crowd. This is culture. (loud chanting begins in background as curtains open in temple room) Bhagavān: Marx, he has written only little book, and you have written so many books. Prabhupāda: What does he know, he'll write? What does he know that he will write? He can bluff people for . . . that's all. Here is Vyāsadeva, vidvān . So: You have found? Read it. Harikeśa: "The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned Vyāsadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth." Prabhupāda: So here is vidvān , and there is a rascal. He does not know how people will be helped. (pause) Prabhupāda: Where you got these beads? Bhagavān: Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Purchased? Bhagavān: Someone gave them as gift, a devotee. Tulasī . Prabhupāda: In Hawaii there are so many tulasīs , dry wood. We can make those. (pause) Bhagavān: In our preaching this is good point, that we do not alienate the Communist and stress on the differences between us and them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: That can come later. *Prabhupāda: But they see practically that, "We are theorizing while they're practically doing." So expand this farming project, self*-help and peaceful life for spiritual culture. I saw that Philadelphia farming is better organized than all others. Jayatīrtha: Yes, in Pennsylvania they have the best farm. It is the best farm. They bought it, it already had all this equipment and best flat farmland, whereas New Vrindavan, they have such a . . . Prabhupāda: Hilly. Jayatīrtha: Hilly, and the place was originally not very nice. Everything they had to build from scratch. Hari-śauri: The management in New Vrindavan is a lot more difficult as well, because they've tried to avoid machinery, so the whole concept of farming without any complicated machinery . . . Prabhupāda: But they have got so many machine. In New Vrindavan there are so many machinery. Hari-śauri: Not so much tractors and things, though. They've been trying to concentrate with just oxen and things like that, so it's taken a while to develop the whole concept, whereas in Pennsylvania they're using so many machines. Prabhupāda: No, we are not . . . (indistinct) . . . various things. Jayatīrtha: In our Vancouver farm, because we had machinery, we were able to put more land under cultivation in the first year than they had in New Vrindavan after so many years. Seemed very efficient. Bhagavān: Thing is, we should not become dependent on machine. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: This unemployment is to their discredit. In the karmis society the unemployment is a great discredit. Now people sitting idle. Prabhupāda: There will be great catastrophe. The unemployment will increase, and people will be very much dissatisfied, especially the black. They will create havoc. This is artificial. They are increasing the production of tire tube and . . . (indistinct) . . . then who will purchase? Nobody lives in tire tube. Therefore unemployment. So therefore reduce production. You cannot go on increasing. You very much trade this tire tube and so many artificial . . . it is very artificial civilization. (break) Here, so far milk and food grains are concerned, whatever sumptuously you want to eat, eat. Balance you can keep stock. The milk can be converted into ghee , then keep stock, and the grains can be stocked. Whenever you like, you just grind the grains and have to eat, halavā . Bhagavān: It's very ecstatic. Prabhupāda: If you have got excess, you can distribute free prasādam , "Come on." You make friends. *Bhagavān: You gave one argument before about this meat*-eating. You say: "If you want to eat meat, that is all right. Why you don't wait until the animal dies naturally?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: "He's going to die one day. So you wait. Now, in the meantime, you can eat cats and dogs." Jayatīrtha: While waiting for the cows to die. Prabhupāda: Yes, cats and dogs they are eating. Yes. Hong Kong, they are eating. Who said that one gentleman came to Hong Kong hotel? Eh? Hari-śauri: One of the devotees in America. Some man came with his pet dog. So in America they tie up the dogs outside the restaurant, so he did that and he went in. And then he pointed, he showed the doorman his dog, meaning that he was liable to look after him. So after he'd eaten his meal he went out and his dog was gone. So after some inquiry they found out that when he showed the doorman the dog, he misunderstood and thought that he wanted to eat it, that he was bringing his lunch with him, so he took the dog and killed it and served him. He ate his dog. Jayatīrtha: A local policeman here said that in England there are more laws protecting the dogs than there are protecting the children. If you beat your children, there is no problem. If you beat your dog, immediately they'll come arrest you. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Jayatīrtha: Yes. Bhagavān: I've seen in India, they are bringing foreign dogs. Jayatīrtha: Even that one gosvāmī in Vṛndāvana, he has got French dogs. Prabhupāda: That poodles. Jayatīrtha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: He's rascal. " Jagat*-guru ." (pause) Prabhupāda: So you can go. Jayatīrtha: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . (end) Prabhupāda: He is so monied man. He cannot get nice food even, the primary necessities. And getting jaundice. Hari-śauri: He had jaundice? Jayatīrtha: Yes, he just recovered from jaundice. Thinks he was poisoned by something he ate. The main reason why he doesn't . . . he got jaundice because, he admitted this that he had Ravi Shankar's brother cooking for him. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: He had one Kumar Shankar, the brother of Ravi Shankar, is cooking for him. So this man is a demon; therefore he is becoming sick. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they are all drunkards, all third*-class men, fourth-class men, low-class men. In India, this naṭas , they are third class, fourth class. Naṭas means the artist—singer, dancers. They are meant for the fourth-class, fifth-class men. It was never taken by the . . . they are called, and they will expertly sing, dance, in some festival. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas , they were not doing that. Still in India there is a class, very expert in dancing, singing. Low class. Their hereditary business is like that. Bhagavān: So you have given everything. You have given all the structure. We have to present it rightly. *Prabhupāda: Even, say, hundred years ago, that Girish Chandra Ghosh, he wanted to introduce theatrical performances, imitating the European theatrical performances, man and woman taking part. So he wanted to invite woman artist. Not a single woman joined. Who will go to public stage to dance, respectable girl? They'll never. That is hundred years. I am speaking, say, about forty years ago. In one of our community, the girl was to be married, and it is the custom in India, the bridegroom's party comes to see the girl, whether she is right. Similarly, the girl's party goes to see the . . . so they came to see one of my friend's daughter. The daughter is very beautiful, rich man's daughter. So one of the bridegroom party questioned, "You know how to dance?" That was his question to the girl: "You have learned something about dancing and singing?" So she was my friend's daughter, my, that friend, Mukunda Mullik. His elder brother was there. He became very angry that, "This rascal is asking our daughter whether she knows dancing and singing." She took it as . . . he took it as insult that, "Respectable family, daughter should learn how to dance, and sing?" So immediately he protested, "No, no, no, she does not know how to dance, how to sing. She's not meant for that purpose. We like, of course, a young girl dancing and singing, but we cannot teach our family members. We spend for that outside. You cannot expect our Mullik's family daughter dancing and singing. No." He is very persistent. Actually that is . . . dancing? Singing? What is this nonsense? For a respectable family? It is meant for the low*-class professional. Pay them, they will dance. Or go to some prostitute. She will dance. So he said that "We have got some taste for dancing, but not that our family members should do that. We pay for that outside." So this art . . . and among the theatrical, Girish Chandra Ghosh could not get a single response from any respectable family. Then he had to seek some young girls from the prostitute class. They became later on famous artists, Kusumkamali Dasi, this Dasi . . . nowadays it has become a fashion that aristocratic family should join this cinema and spoil their character. Otherwise it was meant for the . . . no respectable man. You find the Bhāgavata description, especially for these professional who would come. They'll take their reward. Bhagavān: This class is very influential today, this cinema artist, performer. Whenever there's a Presidential race . . . Prabhupāda: Just like George. What is his value? He's artist, that's all. From educational point of view, from other things view, he does not know anything. But he has got some money on account of his artistic payment, and he's big man, that's all. Somehow or other get money, you become a big man. There is no question of culture or anything. That is stated in the Bhāgavata . The money will be the criterion—no family, culture, education. These things will not be taken into account. If you have got money, then you are big man. Never mind what you are. Therefore people are after money. Who is going to be Brahmin ? If you become a perfect Brahmin , who will care for you? Nobody is interested to become a Brahmin . "Why we shall become Brahmin , starve? For starvation?" Nowadays in the college, they're not interested in art, philosophy, English literature. No, they . . . nobody. They go for technical, how they will get more money. They do not want. Some of the doctor, professor, they came to request us to give our student. They are not getting student. And after few years they'll be all dismissed. Who will pay them? Hayagrīva told me, he's not getting any job. There is another, Mr. . . . Dr. Henderson. He's also not getting any job. He's selling incense. And Bon Mahārāja, his institute is suffering from the very beginning till now, simply begging, begging and paying, paying the professor. No student. First of all he started Vaiṣṇava philosophy, so doctorate, Ph.D. So especially in India, who is going to take Ph.D. in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and starve? So this is failure. It is already failure, but he is persistent. Bhagavān: Therefore people are very surprised we are not starving. Prabhupāda: Why we shall starve? Bhagavān: We are not starving. Prabhupāda: We are, rather, inviting, "Come here, live comfortably, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then what is the difference between Kṛṣṇa's state and ordinary state? When I see so many young boys are taking prasādam , I become so happy that they are having prasādam and good chance for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. They are living in the best house. Bhagavān: Even the churches, they are not feeding people like this. They have so much money. *Prabhupāda: They do not know whose money, how to spend it. Bokā*-loka. (pause) Prabhupāda: In the evening I took that watermelon juice? That created havoc whole night. I think so. So for breakfast you can prepare that soup, the little. Just put vegetable soup. Jayatīrtha: Vegetable soup. Prabhupāda: That's all. Hari-śauri: Nothing else? No fruits? Prabhupāda: You can keep; if I like I can take. But the vegetable soup. Hari-śauri: What time would you like breakfast? Prabhupāda: Half past seven, eight. We are publishing one book, Dialectic Spiritualism. What is that? Jayatīrtha: Harikeśa Mahārāja's book. Bhagavān: No, no. Another one Prabhupāda's spoke. Hari-śauri: The philosophy book. Jayatīrtha: Oh, the philosophy book will be called Dialectic Spiritualism ? Ah, very good title. Hari-śauri: A Vedic View of Western Philosophy . Jayatīrtha: Very good title. *Prabhupāda: That's a fact. If one actually interested in real philosophy, they must come to spiritualism. Ātma*-tattvam. That is ātma-tattvam. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam ( SB 5.5.5). So long they do not come to this platform of understanding ātma-tattva , whatever rascal they are doing, simply defeat, that's all. Parābhava . Simply frustration and defeat. This very word, parābhava , means defeat. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ . Why he's defeated? Abodha-jātaḥ. Because by birth he's a rascal. Abodha-jātaḥ . And this will continue, yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam . So long he's not enlightened to inquire about spirit and the science of spirit, he'll remain in that, that, what is called, defeat position or conquered position. So we have to now increase our scope. Everything we have got. If you don't come to this platform, ātma-tattva , then your all attempt will be defeat. You are already defeated, frustrated. Simply struggling, that's all. Either take the capitalist or Communist, who has conquered? Everyone is defeated. One party may be proud that, "We have been victorious." What victory you have got? What is the victory? Not that the Communist countries, they are all happy. This is not the fact. Then where is your victory? Simply beating the drum that they have got victory, victory? "We have gone to moon planet. We have gone to Mars." Cheating innocent public. Is that victory? (pause) Prabhupāda: The girls are working that side? No. Hari-śauri: No, they won't come for another half hour yet. Jayatīrtha: They can come earlier if you like. They can come any time you like. Prabhupāda: No. No, I have no objection. What is that? They'll work that side, I'll sit down here. Jayatīrtha: They should come now. (leaves room) Prabhupāda: Yes. Our program is solid, but if we have to argue with animals, that is a different thing. Otherwise any human being, they will accept. But the modern civilization means to keep the people in general in animal platform, that's all, and cheat them. (pause) Bhagavān: Most of the people who . . . they are becoming attracted to this Communist philosophy, they have no idea how to practically apply it. All they are seeing is "It is an opportunity to take from the rich and give me to enjoy." But they are not seeing any scope of community cooperation. This is all impractical. They are seeing, "I will get money from my boss. I will take his wealth and distribute." They are simply materialists. Prabhupāda: That also "Distribute for me. More share for me." (laughs) Now there is drought; there is no rain. What the capitalists or Communists can do in this connection? If they are able to present any program how to counteract? Then where is your progress? When there is some calamity, you both of you are simply looking. That's all. You cannot do anything. Then where is your progress? Hari-śauri: The reason why the Russians were buying wheat from America . . . Prabhupāda: Yes? Hari-śauri: . . . because they had no rain. All their crops failed. Jayatīrtha: Not only that, people aren't inclined to work very hard. The farmers are not very enthusiastic to work very hard, because they work very hard, but they have to give all the fruit away. So because they are karmīs , they want the fruit. The state is taking the fruit, therefore they don't want to work. Prabhupāda: Why they shall work? Jayatīrtha: They have no incentive. Prabhupāda: "I'll work and you'll enjoy. Why shall we work?" That is natural tendency. This can be possible only for Kṛṣṇa. "I'll work; Kṛṣṇa will enjoy." That's all. That is only possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jayatīrtha: That's a fact. Therefore it's the only practical communism. *Prabhupāda: "I shall fight, give my all best, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied." . . . (indistinct) . . . Arjuna for his personal, he did not . . . decline, but when he saw that, "Kṛṣṇa wants it? All right." That is kṛṣṇa*-prema. "Never mind I shall be aggrieved by killing my kinsmen, but Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. That's all right." This is Kṛṣṇa philosophy. We cannot find this philosophy in the material world that, "I shall work, and so many will be satisfied." That is not possible. "If I work, I must be satisfied." So these Communists, they will work according to . . . everyone will show that "I have no capacity." So the production will reduce, and they'll have to beg. *Jayatīrtha: They've had to introduce capitalistic*-type incentives in many of the Communist countries in order to induce the people to work. Prabhupāda: Not capitalistic. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. They'll have to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa, and for Kṛṣṇa, they are prepared to do anything. That is philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first class, Vaiṣṇava. Yenātmā suprasīdati . Who knows this verse? Find out this verse. *Bhagavān: Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo ? First Canto. "The first*-class occupation is that which brings love of God. When uninterested, unmotivated, it brings satisfaction." Prabhupāda: Yes. Who will understand this philosophy? Harikeśa: "The supreme occupation, dharma' , for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self." Prabhupāda: So the Communist teaching that, "You love Lenin," and the capitalist teaching that, "You love Washington," so nobody's satisfied. Unless the love comes to Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of satisfied. Jayatīrtha: There's no reciprocation. Prabhupāda: Anyway, there must be defect because the love is reposed in some defective or imperfect personality. It may be Lenin or it may be Washington, it doesn't matter. He's imperfect. (bell rings) Harikeśa: Who's that? Hari-śauri: They're cleaning. Harikeśa: By accident they must have pushed it. Prabhupāda: Love is there. Otherwise why so many people are working? But because it is misplaced, they are not satisfied. Therefore it is stated, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Adhokṣaje , this word, is used. God . . . they may say that, "Where is God?" And therefore the word is used, adhokṣaje : "beyond your sense perception." Everything is within sense perception. So therefore this very word is used that, "You cannot see, you cannot perceive, but still you have to love Him." Adhokṣaje . They say, therefore, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is some ideal, imagination, Kṛṣṇa. They think . . . they say: "They have an imaginary form of Kṛṣṇa, a stone, and unnecessarily they are wasting their time, loving Kṛṣṇa." What is their theory? You know that? Harikeśa: Some people think. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are some. They are not all. Even they criticize that, "You cannot see Kṛṣṇa," so similar argument can be, "You do not see Lenin. Why you are worshiping?" That's it. "Is Lenin present before you? So why you are worshiping?" You'll see. You have got, in Moscow got, every street corner a big picture. Harikeśa: They're trying to replace everybody's desire to worship some greater authority. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, but if you or somebody argues, "Where is Lenin? You are . . . why you are worshiping? You cannot see Lenin." Because they say, "Where is your Kṛṣṇa? You are worshiping a statue," so we can say the same thing, "Where is your Lenin? The statue, it is?" In the airport station, street crossing and everywhere there is picture. And they go to worship Lenin's tomb every day. Many other fools also go there, tourists, that Red Square. They tried in India for Jawaharlal's tomb, for Gandhi's tomb. So in the beginning there was little crowd. Now nobody goes. But Vṛndāvana, Govindajī's temple, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple? Without invitation—crowd. This is culture. (loud chanting begins in background as curtains open in temple room) Bhagavān: Marx, he has written only little book, and you have written so many books. Prabhupāda: What does he know, he'll write? What does he know that he will write? He can bluff people for . . . that's all. Here is Vyāsadeva, vidvān . So: You have found? Read it. Harikeśa: "The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned Vyāsadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth." Prabhupāda: So here is vidvān , and there is a rascal. He does not know how people will be helped. (pause) Prabhupāda: Where you got these beads? Bhagavān: Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Purchased? Bhagavān: Someone gave them as gift, a devotee. Tulasī . Prabhupāda: In Hawaii there are so many tulasīs , dry wood. We can make those. (pause) Bhagavān: In our preaching this is good point, that we do not alienate the Communist and stress on the differences between us and them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: That can come later. *Prabhupāda: But they see practically that, "We are theorizing while they're practically doing." So expand this farming project, self*-help and peaceful life for spiritual culture. I saw that Philadelphia farming is better organized than all others. Jayatīrtha: Yes, in Pennsylvania they have the best farm. It is the best farm. They bought it, it already had all this equipment and best flat farmland, whereas New Vrindavan, they have such a . . . Prabhupāda: Hilly. Jayatīrtha: Hilly, and the place was originally not very nice. Everything they had to build from scratch. Hari-śauri: The management in New Vrindavan is a lot more difficult as well, because they've tried to avoid machinery, so the whole concept of farming without any complicated machinery . . . Prabhupāda: But they have got so many machine. In New Vrindavan there are so many machinery. Hari-śauri: Not so much tractors and things, though. They've been trying to concentrate with just oxen and things like that, so it's taken a while to develop the whole concept, whereas in Pennsylvania they're using so many machines. Prabhupāda: No, we are not . . . (indistinct) . . . various things. Jayatīrtha: In our Vancouver farm, because we had machinery, we were able to put more land under cultivation in the first year than they had in New Vrindavan after so many years. Seemed very efficient. Bhagavān: Thing is, we should not become dependent on machine. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: This unemployment is to their discredit. In the karmis society the unemployment is a great discredit. Now people sitting idle. Prabhupāda: There will be great catastrophe. The unemployment will increase, and people will be very much dissatisfied, especially the black. They will create havoc. This is artificial. They are increasing the production of tire tube and . . . (indistinct) . . . then who will purchase? Nobody lives in tire tube. Therefore unemployment. So therefore reduce production. You cannot go on increasing. You very much trade this tire tube and so many artificial . . . it is very artificial civilization. (break) Here, so far milk and food grains are concerned, whatever sumptuously you want to eat, eat. Balance you can keep stock. The milk can be converted into ghee , then keep stock, and the grains can be stocked. Whenever you like, you just grind the grains and have to eat, halavā . Bhagavān: It's very ecstatic. Prabhupāda: If you have got excess, you can distribute free prasādam , "Come on." You make friends. *Bhagavān: You gave one argument before about this meat*-eating. You say: "If you want to eat meat, that is all right. Why you don't wait until the animal dies naturally?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: "He's going to die one day. So you wait. Now, in the meantime, you can eat cats and dogs." Jayatīrtha: While waiting for the cows to die. Prabhupāda: Yes, cats and dogs they are eating. Yes. Hong Kong, they are eating. Who said that one gentleman came to Hong Kong hotel? Eh? Hari-śauri: One of the devotees in America. Some man came with his pet dog. So in America they tie up the dogs outside the restaurant, so he did that and he went in. And then he pointed, he showed the doorman his dog, meaning that he was liable to look after him. So after he'd eaten his meal he went out and his dog was gone. So after some inquiry they found out that when he showed the doorman the dog, he misunderstood and thought that he wanted to eat it, that he was bringing his lunch with him, so he took the dog and killed it and served him. He ate his dog. Jayatīrtha: A local policeman here said that in England there are more laws protecting the dogs than there are protecting the children. If you beat your children, there is no problem. If you beat your dog, immediately they'll come arrest you. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Jayatīrtha: Yes. Bhagavān: I've seen in India, they are bringing foreign dogs. Jayatīrtha: Even that one gosvāmī in Vṛndāvana, he has got French dogs. Prabhupāda: That poodles. Jayatīrtha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: He's rascal. " Jagat*-guru ." (pause) Prabhupāda: So you can go. Jayatīrtha: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . (end) *Bhūgarbha: Many scholars are appreciating more and more. And on the University of Edmonton, in Alberta, Canada, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he was a linguist, professor of linguistics. He's a very pious man, and he is writing a book with some other professor in the Religion department on the comparative study of bhakti in the Indian tradition and the Hebrew tradition. And he's using your books as his only source for the Indian tradition. So he ordered not only one set of all the books, but two sets of all your books. Three sets actually. He ordered one set of Bhāgavatams for his own personal library, then he ordered two sets for the University library—one for the reference section and one for the general section. So he ordered three sets. And when his book comes out, in the back they have a bibliography section, references, and he will give reference to all your books. He was wondering . . . he's writing this book about bhakti , and he said: "What is a good definition of bhakti for the Indian tradition?" So I showed him Nectar of Devotion , anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). He said that is very good, and he wrote it down and put it in his book. Prabhupāda: Till now, they took bhakti as a matter of sentiment. Religious science they did not know, all over the world. Bhūgarbha: He said he's trying to show that by studying bhakti in Indian tradition and also in Hebrew tradition, he's . . . Prabhupāda: Bhakti is not achieved by studying. Bhakti stage is achieved by practice. That is the special significance of our institution, that we are engaging our men in practicing. Therefore they are getting knowledge—not by reading. Bhūgarbha: He was saying there are certain social and economic conditions that need to be present before bhakti can come about. Prabhupāda: Bhakti can solve everything—social, economical, cultural, religious, everything. (coughing heavily) So Dr. Joseph saw all my books? *Bhūgarbha: Every one he saw. We showed him some . . . he was very happy to see the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Yes, I offered him the post of editing. Bhūgarbha: Now he's sorry. Now he's simply sitting in debt. (means: he feels he can't repay his debt to you) Prabhupāda: But he did not say no. He wanted to do conveniently. Then I thought, it will not be . . . (coughs) "When he will return, he'll do it." That is not possible. Bhūgarbha: He gave me some of his books that he wrote. He gave me some to read. And actually the English in your books is much better than his books, so better he's not editing. It's coming out better. Prabhupāda: No, he's not a good English scholar. Bhūgarbha: Actually, he speaks perfect French also. And he got his Ph.D. from the University of Paris. Prabhupāda: Paris or Dutch as well. Bhūgarbha: He's been every place. He went to . . . in Paris he got in the Sorbonne, and also in Pondicherry they have one French Institute, and there he got his Ph.D. And also in Holland there is one very important man. So by his letters we can . . . many people will take our books. Prabhupāda: No, he's undoubtedly very great Sanskrit scholar. He had written some book how to make the sacred thread, like that. How many knots should be there, how many . . . (laughter) Smārta Brahmin. *Bhūgarbha: Now he's written another book to show how his life is changing. His latest book was about the five chapters of the Dasama*-skanda , which is the rasa-līlā. That is his book now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhūgarbha: So he's changing smārta , now he's turning different. Prabhupāda: No, he has no training in bhakti . *Bhūgarbha: He said one nice thing. He said that without Jīva Gosvāmī's Ṣaṭ*-sandarbhas there's no question of understanding Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhūgarbha: He made that statement. Prabhupāda: (coughing) I met him when he was in Delhi once. Bhūgarbha: We were very inspired, in Delhi, that almost every college we went to, they already had your three books, and the librarians, they would remember. We would ask them, "When did you get these books?" They'd think, "Well, about ten, twelve years ago, some sannyāsī came. We purchased." Prabhupāda: So they remembered. Bhūgarbha: They were . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So now they took others? Bhūgarbha: Now . . . we said that, "You've begun, this is only the beginning. You cannot have incomplete set." They said: "Yes, we cannot have incomplete," so they took the rest. And also that man, that Shastri, the Ministry of Education? That man Mr. Shastri, in the Ministry of Education, the Rātrī of Sanskrit- samsad , he bought fifty copies? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhūgarbha: He's also, I think, taken fifty standing orders now to complete wherever he is. Prabhupāda: He is still there? Bhūgarbha: No, he has shifted now. He's in Darbhanga. But his successor, he's taken. We just made copy, it is printed in your *Bhāgavatam* . So he made true copy on some paper, and he has two copies of the last order, and this is the balance of his subscription, so now he should take. Prabhupāda: That is Education Ministry. Bhūgarbha: They're only giving the Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: They can take at least fifty copies of each. Bhūgarbha: Yes. So he's doing that now. Prabhupāda: They gave me order, I dispatched by post, and if the acknowledgement received, I submitted my bill, they paid. Bhūgarbha: We're going to find the list of which universities you sent to, because we only found . . . not that many. Prabhupāda: That will be a waste of time. (laughter) So many things I did not keep record. Bhūgarbha: Even in Poona, they had, the Deccan College in Poona. They also had. We sent to them also. They also ordered balance. Prabhupāda: In Bombay also I supplied to so many colleges. And the Public Library. Bhūgarbha: That Royal Asiatic Society. Prabhupāda: Ah. Bhūgarbha: In Bombay they purchase all the books. We had to do a little negotiation with them, but they purchased everything. Then the Calcutta Royal Asiatic Society, they wrote us a letter, they said that, "These books are the best," the letter came like that, but that "we have no funds to purchase, so can you please send us free of charge?" Prabhupāda: They have no funds? Asiatic? Bhūgarbha: They said like that. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Nowadays people are not interested in cultural societies. They are simply for belly. How to earn money, that's all. Śūdra mentality. The brāhmaṇa mentality is gone. In America also, people are not joining cultural classes of philosophy. Hayagrīva said that he has no job because nobody is taking English as literary study. Nobody's interested. They are taking to technology. Bhūgarbha: Science. Prabhupāda: Science means how to make the motorcar wheel, that's all. This is their science. Bhūgarbha: In America, the professors complain to us. When we try to sell them personal books, they should take books themselves, they say that the salary of a college professor in America is the same as the salary of a waiter in some hotel. That is the respect they are given. Prabhupāda: Sometimes they are called church mouse. Church mouse. A mouse in the church, what he'll eat? He's in a householder's place, a mouse is there, he can eat something. But church, nobody's eating there. Simply dust, that's all. (laughter) Church mouse. Any new mail? Harikeśa: Stacks of it. Quite a lot. Prabhupāda: Oh. Where from? Harikeśa: Want to go over it now? Shall we go over everything now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Jyotirmāyī is outside, and Yogeśvara. We can have them come in? Prabhupāda: Just fix on the light. Bhagavān: Is now the right time to ask? She has some questions on gurukula . Is now okay? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . has not come? Harikeśa: They haven't come as yet. Bhagavān: Yogeśvara has just come back from Italy. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the news, Italy? *Yogeśvara: They've finished the preparation for the printing of the French edition of Kṛṣṇa Book and Śrī Upadeśāmṛta and the Italian Bhagavad*-gītā , and they should be ready within the next ten days. Prabhupāda: French language. *Bhagavān: And Italian Bhagavad*-gītā is done. Prabhupāda: What is the political position of the Fascist and Communist? Yogeśvara: Very mixed up. Bhagavān: They are called Christian Democrats. (laughs) Prabhupāda: They can manufacture so many. Fertile brain in the tract of deserted world. This world is desert, and they have got fertile brain. They call? The fertile land in the deserted land, in the desert, is called oasis. So similarly, these rascals, they have got fertile brain in the world of desert, but there is no happiness. But they have got fertile brain how to manufacture happiness. And māyā kicks on their face and baffles everything. This is the illusion. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā ( BG 7.14). They, the world is desert, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), but they have got fertile brain, how to become happy. And as soon as they make some arrangement, kicks on his face and broken. That's all. What do you think? Is it right? Sometimes you have got fertile brain. (laughter) This fertile brain, he will not accept. He'll be kicked out. Everything will be finished. If you want to be happy, then you have to go back home, back to Kṛṣṇa. That is the only way. Otherwise, your fertile brain will not help. What do you think, Jyotirmāyī? You are intelligent. Jyotirmāyī: I came to ask you some questions about the gurukula , because now if I don't ask them today . . . Prabhupāda: So gurukula means . . . find out that chapter, brahmacārī gurukule. Hari-śauri: 7.10 (background discussion about which verse) Prabhupāda: Vasan dānto guror hitam. (SB 7.12.1) The beginning of life is how to become cent percent obedient to guru . That is gurukula . That training should be given. The whole process is that our life will be successful when we strictly follow guru and Kṛṣṇa. Guru means Kṛṣṇa; *Kṛṣṇa means guru . Not Māyāvāda, but guru means one who follows Kṛṣṇa, he is guru . Sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ . So guru is directly God, sākṣād-hari. Sākṣād means "directly." So sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas , in every śāstra it is said the guru is God, Kṛṣṇa. So it is stated in the śāstra and it is accepted by authorities. Not that it is simply stated. Samasta-śāstrair, ukta . You understand little Sanskrit? *Jyotirmāyī: Some verses from Bhagavad*-gītā . *Prabhupāda: Huh? Ukta, ukta means "said." And sadbhiḥ , "by great personalities." Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas, tathā, and "accordingly"— tathā means "accordingly". Bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ , those who are actually in transcendental platform, they should accept it. So why? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva . . . it does not mean Māyāvādī, that he has become God. But kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya , he is the most confidential servant. He's therefore servant-God. He's God—servant-God. God is master-God. Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. So why he has become priya ? That is, Kṛṣṇa says personally, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69): nobody is dearer than him in the whole world. Why? Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidā . . . (BG 18.68), "who preaches this gospel of Bhagavad-gītā amongst My devotees." So the guru has got two business, he has to make devotee and teach them the principles of Bhagavad-gītā . Therefore he's so dear. Not that he has become God, not Māyāvādī philosophy. He's living entity, but because he acts very confidentially on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, therefore he's as good as God. This is going on. Not the Māyāvādī philosophy, that guru has become God. Guru is God, not become. He's servant-God. And Kṛṣṇa is master-God. So the success is that both the Gods, when one is accepted by both the Gods, then his life is success. Guru*-kṛṣṇa kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Therefore one has to fix his faith staunchly in the bona fide guru . So if one has got bona fide guru , and if he follows that bona fide guru , then his life is success. This is the process. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair . So gurukula means to teach how to become very, very faithful, cent percent faithful, to the bona fide guru . That is guru . So you have to teach like that—by behavior, by life, by action. That is gurukula . This sum and substance of . . . brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānto guror hitam. Where is that? Harikeśa: We don't have the book. Prabhupāda: What you have got? Simply your face, that's all. I'll have to see your face. Why this book is not there? Hari-śauri: It's 7.3. There was only your copies are available at the moment, and we gave it to George Harrison. Prabhupāda: And you could not secure any more. Hari-śauri: The only other copy is in New York. Prabhupāda: Any other Bhāgavata ? Just see. Reference book must be always there. This is the principle of gurukula . Now from this platform, on this understanding, you have to organize. *Jyotirmāyī: You were saying that there are mainly three principles to learn: how to be obedient, how to know, read your books and be self*-controlled. So that's what I explained to the teacher, that they should keep that. *Prabhupāda: Guru says there are four principles to be followed. They should be taught in that way. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating, no intoxication. Guru says that you chant at least sixteen . . . that should be taught, learning, rise early in the morning, that should be taught. So whatever guru say, you have to teach them perfectly, from childhood—then there will be no deviation when they are grown-up. Jyotirmāyī: We have them chant now down there. When they chant japa , they chant very enthusiastically. So the teacher himself chants . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. According to age, according to . . . but this is the principle. Gurukula means to learn how to become obedient, self*-controlled and act on behalf of guru . This is gurukula . Not to learn grammar very scholarly, grammarian. No, that is not gurukula . There are many thousand scholar —who cares for them? Put in the life. That is important. Our movement has drawn the attention of the world on account of life and the knowledge. They are finding the knowledge in the book and they are finding the practical application in life. That is the important thing. Books there are many, but the books as they are described, they are being followed. That is gurukula . Find out. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: Yes? Prabhupāda: Guror hitam . So brahmacārī , a brahmacārī should live in the gurukula for the following purposes. The first is that he should be trained up how to control the senses. So that, if you teach any child from the childhood, he'll be trained up. In that case, that female children should be separated. Jyotirmāyī: I wanted to know also what should we do once they are sixteen, because you said they should be trained in a gurukula until they are sixteen. So once they are sixteen . . . *Prabhupāda: Once Sarasvatī said that, "We have no sex with woman." (laughter) So, innocent, she does not know. So that is, if they are kept separate, they remain innocent. And they are taught that all women should be addressed as mother. Whatever you get it, self*-control. And female children should be taught how to become faithful to the husband and to learn the arts of cooking, arts of painting—that should be their subject matter. Jyotirmāyī: Painting? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sixty*-four arts, Rādhārāṇī did. Then She could control Kṛṣṇa. Jyotirmāyī: So after they have learned all the academics—reading, writing, all these . . . *Prabhupāda: Academic is ordinary, A*-B-C-D, that's all. Not very much. But these arts. They should learn how to cook nicely. Jyotirmāyī: And what should the boys be taught from ten to sixteen? *Prabhupāda: The principle is same, that when they grow up they learn the śāstra . The more they read, the more they learn. Then they become preacher, teacher. The grown*-up children, those who are fifteen, sixteen, they can teach five, six years old. Jyotirmāyī: Then they can take responsibility themselves. Prabhupāda: In this way. Elderly student . . . that is the way of Indian teaching, that there is one teacher, and how he's managing hundreds? That means there are groups. One who is elderly student, he's taking some beginners: "Write a or A like this." That he can teach. What he has learned, he can teach. Similarly, next group, next group. So in this way, one teacher can manage hundreds of students of different categories. This is organization. Not that "Everything I have to do. I cannot teach anybody to do it," that is not intelligence. Intelligence is that employ other to help you. That is intelligence. Not that "Oh, I was busy, I could not do it." Why? What about your assistant? Train assistant so that in your absence things can be done. So the elderly students, they should be . . . just Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He used to do that. When He was sixteen years old He could argue with Keśava Kāśmīrī, because He was practiced. Jyotirmāyī: And you explained that they should be . . . Prabhupāda: In this way, stage after stage, everyone should be expert. Everyone should be teacher and student. Bhagavān: The boys, they should learn how also to cook? *Prabhupāda: Huh? I never said that. Why you are bringing that question? I said the girls should be. Cooking is not boy's business. But cooking is not very difficult art. If they want, the boys can . . . (coughs) There are so many. In the Bhakti*-rasāmṛta sindhu it is stated how Rādhārāṇī was qualified. So these things should be taught to the girls. If the girls are taught to give service to the husband to the greatest satisfaction, there will be no disagreement. Yogeśvara: Can the older boys be trained in a particular kind of devotional service? For example, Press work? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Everything is devotional. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). There are varieties. We are not Māyāvādī, impersonalist, " Aham brahmasmi —finished, all business." It is not like that. So whatever business is going on in our movement, everything should be taught according to the capacity, boy or girls, it doesn't matter. Some department is suitable for the boy, some department are suitable for the girl. In this way, they should be trained up. But everyone should be trained up to give service. That is gurukula . (coughing) And brahmacārī , this sex impulse should be controlled. That ruins the whole character. Our big, big sannyāsīs are becoming victimized. So that is the danger. Woman is good, man is good; when they combine together, bad. This is the material world. Both of them are good, but when they combine together, they are bad. This is material world. In the spiritual world, there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore it is always good. Everyone is part and parcel of God, so they are good. In the spiritual world, they combine together, it becomes bad . . . in the material world. In the spiritual world there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore they are always good. So you have to train like that. In the spiritual world there are very, very beautiful woman, thousand, thousands times. Here, in the heavenly planets, they are calculated the best perfectional body of the woman. But in the spiritual world, still further. But there is no attraction of sex. They are working together, serving together, everything. But the sex attraction, there is no. They are elevated so much in the service of the Lord . . . sex attraction is a kind of pleasure. *So there are different types of pleasure. Here, if somebody, good foodstuff is there, and—that is also another sense pleasure—and by the time one beautiful woman is canvassing, "Now, come and let us enjoy," he will give up this good food. He'll go for sex, because he will think this is better than that. So one pleasure is rejected if one is engaged in better pleasure. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). So in the spiritual world the service of the Lord is so pleasing that they can neglect this sex pleasure. That is spiritual world. They have no attachment for sex pleasure. Yadāvadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāmānudyata bata nārī-saṅgame bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭu (Yāmunācārya). That is spiritual world. When one spits on the sex pleasure, that means he is elevated in spiritual life. So in the material world that is not possible. But by training, by knowledge, one can be elevated. That is gurukula . So these are the general principles. Now arrange. Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking about that, that because the girls are trained like brahmacārīnis also in the gurukula , they should be also kept very, very simple, just like the little boys, brahmacārīs . Prabhupāda: No, our life is simple. We don't want luxury. We don't want luxury, but as we are accustomed in so many ways, as far as possible. But life should be very simple. To increase unnecessary things unnecessarily, that is material life. Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking in that way—simple clothes, no jewels, just like the boys, simple . . . *Prabhupāda: Don't say "no." But give a taste for the good, then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," then he'll . . . they will rebel. The four "no's," that is very difficult. Still they are breaking. No illicit sex, they are breaking. But if they develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this will be automatically "no." So don't bring many "no's," but give them positive life. Then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," that will be a struggle. This is the psychology. (coughing) Positive engagement is devotional service. So if they are attracted by devotional service, other things will be automatically "no." Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Just like Ekādaśī day. Ekādaśī day, we observe fasting. And there are many patients in the hospital, they are also fasting, but there is no "No." They'll, within heart, "If I get, I shall eat, I shall eat." But those who are devotee, they are voluntarily "no." The same fasting is going on for the devotees and the hospital patient. And that "no" and this "no," there is difference. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. It is not meant for the mass of people, but at least if we keep a section of people ideal to the human society, they will be guided. At the present moment, there is no ideal section. Everyone is rascal, demons, rogue, everything. There is no ideal character. All politician, scientist, leader they are all drunkards and woman*-hunters. So what they can lead? There is no ideal man in the society. The politicians are giving big, big speech in the United Nation. They'll go to the same hotel where another debauchee is dancing and drinking. That's all. That is his character. Is it not? So what he will do? He can give very big speech, that's all. What is his character? There is no ideal character in the present human society. Do they appreciate our these restriction? Bhagavān: Our restrictions? Yes, they are impressed. They sometimes write about the gurukula that we are treating roughly the children by making them so austere. But every time they show the picture, the children are always happy. *Prabhupāda: (coughing) They have standardized their happiness on this principle—illicit sex, meat*-eating, gambling. That is the standard. And if you deny that, they say: "Oh, it is impossible. This is the primary principles of life." Yes. Such a big man like Ronaldsay, he said: "Oh, it is impossible." He was a big man, philosopher, very nice gentleman—still he said: "Oh, it is impossible." Bhagavān: (to Jyotirmāyī) You have any . . . Jyotirmāyī: Yes. You were saying that the children should learn these three, geography and these things, and I wanted to know if they should also learn what they call biology, that is how the body is working, what are the bones and blood and . . . Prabhupāda: What is the use? What is the use? Jyotirmāyī: Just to have some general knowledge . . . Prabhupāda: Simply waste of time. Simply waste of time. Jyotirmāyī: Even the basic of this? Prabhupāda: What is the basic? What you will know by that? Biology is going on, you study or not study. You are eating, it is transforming into blood, everyone knows. And how he's transforming into blood, what is the use? Jyotirmāyī: You were saying they should learn geography and history, just for general knowledge. Prabhupāda: That is because you have to go from America to India. You must know. (laughter) You have to calculate "Two plus two equal to four," a little mathematics. But this biology and this "logy," they are useless. There is no necessity. What you'll gain by understanding biology? Even one who knows biology, the medical man, he gives a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." "Perhaps." He's not sure. So what is the use? First of all he'll take one ounce blood from you, and they send, this station, that station, now making a chart, then he'll give a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." And this is going on. Even the biggest pathologist, medical man, cannot guarantee that whatever medicine he is giving is you . . . (break) We are not independent. Yogeśvara: Some group doctors? Some portion of the devotees, medicals knowledge? Prabhupāda: There is no harm. But when medical men are available by paying something, why should you waste your time? There are so many things we purchase, you pay for them. Not that we have to learn everything. So many things we have to do. Does it mean that you have to learn everything? Hari-śauri: There's lots of doctors, but there's no Brahmins , devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the principle is, no, don't waste time. If one has already learned medical science, all right, bring him to some service. But not that our men has to go to the medical college to learn medical science. That is not the point. Jyotirmāyī: So because we're in the country, I was taking the children in the land here and teaching them how to recognize the different plants. Is that useful, or should I not do that? Prabhupāda: Different plants? Jyotirmāyī: Plants, yes. Here we have so many different plants growing, some medical plants, some that can be eaten. Is there any use? Prabhupāda: No. Different plants, that is botanical study; *that has also no utilization. But you can teach them, "Just see, this plant is coming from earth. The earth is the mother of this plant." These things you can convince them. Is it not a fact? The grass is coming, the tree is coming, and the animal eating grass. Then the animal is coming. The man is eating food grains, then man is coming. So originally the earth is the mother, feeding everyone. Is there any denial? What do you think? So earth is the mother of all living entities, convince them. So all living entities are children. Mother earth is the mother. The father? Where is father, find out. Everyone has got idea, father, mother and children. Children are there. The mother is there. Where is the father? If somebody says: "I have not seen the father. How can I recognize father?" that does not mean . . . because the mother is there, because the children are there, there must be father. If you do not know, try to know it from your mother, from your superior—from Veda*-mātā . You have to know from the Vedas . Bhagavān: So at that young age they can very easily develop faith in Kṛṣṇa and guru . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā. *That's all. That study will be nice. Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ. Just like father gives the seed, similarly, Kṛṣṇa give the seed. The seed, when pushed into the womb of the mother and properly nourished, a rose plant comes out. This plant comes out. The seed is there. It is very easy. The father injects the seed within the womb of the mother, and the childs come out. Similarly, whatever is coming out from the earth, the seed-giving father is Kṛṣṇa. And when the seed is pushed within the womb of the mother, then the plant is coming, and everything. This nature's law is going on. Where is the necessity of understanding more than this? We understand the mother is pregnant. Now how she has been, how the child is growing, that is not under your control. It is going on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27), immediately it is in hand of the nature. Even if you study, you cannot understand how things are arranged—the intestine is joined to the navel of the child and the food is supplied, how it is mechanical . . . do you know everything? Can anyone do? Can anyone understand? But things are there. That is being done by prakṛtiḥ . Even if you study, you cannot understand. So best thing is to understand that it is being done by nature under the instruction of Supreme Lord. Let us chant Hare Kṛṣṇa instead of studying these . . . there are many students, many botanists, many . . . they, vaguely they are studying, and they have no understanding of Kṛṣṇa. They're denying, rather, the father. The child has come into existence without father. This is their knowledge. So instead of becoming such a fool and rascal, it is better not to study. Jyotirmāyī: I also thought of a way to help the children remember the *Kṛṣṇa Book* stories easier. It was . . . you started that long time ago with Madhupuri, you asked her to make the *Kṛṣṇa Book* into poem. That was long time ago in New York. Then she didn't do it . . . Prabhupāda: *Kṛṣṇa Book* is not difficult to be understood by . . . Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking if we make into poem and put music and they sing it, then they sing it they can remember . . . Prabhupāda: That you can do, to make it understandable easily. It is already easy. If you want to make more easy, then do that. Jyotirmāyī: Okay. You also allowed . . . you said that some parents can keep their children with them and teach themselves. *Prabhupāda: You follow that, brahmacārī guru*-kule vasan, that I've already explained. That should be done. Don't bring any new thing, imported ideas. That will not be helpful. It will be encumbrance. "My experiment with truth"—Gandhi's movement. Truth is truth. "Experiment" means you do not know what is truth. It is a way of life. Everything is stated there, try to train them. Simple thing. We are not going to teach biology or chemistry. They are not going to . . . our students are not going to. Our students should be fit for teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By their character, by their behavior, by their knowledge, that is wanted. Biologists, chemists, physicists and mathematicians there are hundreds and thousands. We are not going to waste our time that gurukula should produce a great grammarian, a great geologist, biologist. Don't want that. There are many other educational institutes. If you can get a good driver of your car, so what is the use of waste your time to learn driving? Is it not? If you have got important business, you can do that. Why should you waste your time to learn driving? Better employ one driver, pay him some fare. Harikeśa: You once said in Vṛndāvana that the Marwaris, they don't bother going to school because they can make a lot of money by sitting by the phone and just pay a few rupees a day and any educated fool can do the work. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they do that. They are employing in their factories big, big chemist, big, big physicist, engineer and so on, but they do not bother. They are paying thirty thousand rupees per month salary, Birla. Expert, imported from foreign countries. But their sons are never troubled. (coughing) They know how to utilize that worker of thirty thousand rupees per month and to earn thirty lakhs from him. Why shall he waste his time? He knows how to . . . they earn. They pay a man thirty thousand and through him earn thirty lakhs . Actually, in order to make a balanced society, the varṇāśrama*-dharma is very important, cooperation. So these things are meant for the śūdras. Brāhmaṇas are not meant for this. Yogeśvara: You once told me that a brāhmaṇa must know how to do everything perfectly so that he can teach others. Prabhupāda: That may be, you may be a teacher, but you'll remain only a worker. That is another thing. Just like Dronācārya, he taught, he remained a teacher. So we can become a teacher of a particular subject matter, but that does not mean you should be worker. Still, there are many professors, they are teacher; *they are not worker. But if the teachers are available, why you should become a teacher? Let them teach. We have to save our time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. After all, this, in the modern world they have invented so many varieties of occupation unnecessarily, to develop economic condition. Is it not? But our philosophy is that you cannot develop your economic condition, then you are destined to suffer or enjoy. So one should not waste his time for so*-called development of economic condition. He should utilize his time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which was not possible in any other form of life. When we had cat's and dog's life, tree's life, we could not do that, development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now we have got human form of life, we should fully utilize it for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why should we waste our time for economic development? Economic development is not possible. Then every work, every city, they are trying to develop this economic condition, but they're simply struggling. Why they word it of "Struggle for existence" is there? It is not possible. Why there are varieties of social position? Everyone could come on the same standard. That is not possible. Anywhere you go, the three classes of men—upper class, middle class and lower class—is there. Is there any country where there is no these three classes, only the upper class? Is there any country? Yogeśvara: No. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use? (coughing) Anywhere you'll go, you'll find this upper class, (coughing) middle class and lower class. When I . . . in the beginning, I thought that America, everyone is richer class. So when I came, I saw the three classes are already there. The lower class, although the country has good facilities not to become lower class, still, voluntarily they are hippies, lower class. They are lying on the street. Although he has got very good opportunity to become first class, but he is lying on the street. Why? What is the answer? British Empire, London, the one is lying on the bench. New York, lying on the bench. There is no sufficient clothing. Why? Actually, he can live very comfortably, but why he's living in that condition? What is the answer? Harikeśa: It's his nature. *Prabhupāda: No, he has to live in that way. That is his destiny. You cannot change it by artificial ways. Even if he has got all the facilities, he will have to live like that. That is nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅgo 'sya sad*-asad janma yoniṣu (BG 13.22). This is . . . so therefore there is no use of so-called improvement. And you cannot do it. This is a fact. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovido. Find out this verse. Na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ . Your standard of happiness and distress must be there, because you are destined by the laws of nature. You have to suffer although you are born in America. In New York you can get very comfortable life there; *still, you have lie down on bench, "Lie down." Although you are born of a rich man's family, you have to become hippies: "Lie down here." Who can check this? What is that law. Do they know it? But there is a law. There will be a first class, second class, third class, fourth class. You cannot check it. Huh? That New York City, so cared for. Nasty road, streets. And always, every moment— dung*-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung, gu-gu-gu-gu-gu-gu-gu —fire. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka . Fire is blazing. Despite all arrangement, fire is blazing. How can you stop it? Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, saṁsāra-biṣānale, dibaniśi hiya jvale (Hari Hari Biphale 2). The blazing fire of poison is always going on. Taribāre nā kāinu upāya. And one has to make ways how to get out of this fire. That is intelligence. Read that. Harikeśa: "Persons who are actually intelligent and philosophically inclined should endeavor only for that purposeful end which is not obtainable even by wandering from the topmost planet (Brahmaloka) down to the lowest planet (Pātāla). As far as happiness derived from sense enjoyment is concerned, it can be obtained automatically in course of time, just as in course of time we obtain miseries, even though we do not desire them." Prabhupāda: This is philosophy. What is the purport? *Harikeśa: "Every man everywhere is trying to obtain the greatest amount of sense enjoyment for various endeavors. Some of them are busy engaged in trade, industry, economic development, political supremacy, etc., and some of them are engaged in fruitive work to become happy in the next life by attaining higher planets. It is said that in the moon the inhabitants are fit for greater sense enjoyment by drinking soma*-rasa , and the Pitrloka is obtained by good charitable work. So there are various programs for sense enjoyment, either during this life or in the life after death." *Prabhupāda: Such a pleasing planet, and these rascals say there is no life. The moon is described everywhere, the most pleasing planet. Actually, when there is moon in the sky, how it is pleasing. So that planet is meant for the high*-class pious persons, and they get their life for ten thousands of years. They live very comfortably, drink soma-rasa. These are the description we get from śāstra . And these rascals say it is desert. And we have to believe them. And practically we see how pleasing it is. As soon as the moon planet is there, the whole atmosphere becomes pleasing. And it is desert. And we have to believe these rascal scientists and disregard the description of the śāstra . What do you think? Is that very good intelligence? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: We disregard the statement of Vyāsadeva, and we have to accept the statement of a rascal drunkard. (laughter) We are not so unfortunate. So unfortunate, they can believe that. We cannot believe. Yogeśvara: Now they have published pictures of Mars. Prabhupāda: Let them do that, befool others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). Because others, they are blind, this blind man, whatever he says, they believe. They will say, "Perhaps ten millions of years ago there was life, perhaps." These things are going on. But we know every planet is full of living entity. There is regular life and there are streets. The streets are paved with pearls, corals, in Svargaloka. We have got information. And what is their information? Scratching some sand and bring it, that's all. As if sand is not available. But we give information there are planets where the pavements are with pearls. Go and bring some pearls. There is the ocean of milk. Bring some milk from there. And then we shall understand that you are making some research. Simply all over the universe dry sand? And here the population is increasing. Just see. We have to believe all this. Everything is by nature vacant, and all people and animals are here. And we have to believe that. Hmm. Read it. They are exposing more and more about their nonsensical scientific inquiry. Harikeśa: "Some are trying to reach the moon or other planets by some mechanical arrangement, for they are very anxious to get into such planets without doing good work. But it is not to happen. By the law of the Supreme, different places are meant for different grades of living beings according to the work they might have performed. By good work only, as prescribed in the scriptures, one can obtain birth in a good family, opulence, good education and good bodily features. We see also that even in this life one obtains a good education or money or bodily beauty. Similarly, in our next birth we get such desirable positions only by good work. Otherwise it would not so happen that two persons born in the same place at the same time are seen differently placed according to the previous work. But all such material positions are not permanent. The positions in the topmost Brahmaloka and in the lowest Pātāla are also changeable according to our own work. The philosophically inclined person must not be tempted by such changeable positions. He should try to get into the permanent life of bliss and knowledge where he will not be forced to come back again to the miserable material world, either in this or that planet. Miseries and mixed happiness are two features of material life, and they are obtained in Brahmaloka and in other lokas also. They are obtained in the life of the demigods and also in the life of the dogs and hogs. The miseries and mixed happiness of all living beings are only of different degree in quality, but no one is free from the miseries of birth, death, old age and disease. Similarly, everyone has his destined happiness also. No one can get more or less of these things simply by personal endeavors. Even if they are obtained, they can be lost again. One should not, therefore, waste time with these flimsy things, but one should only endeavor to go back to Godhead. That should be the mission of everyone's life." *Prabhupāda: That is our position. We should not waste a single moment for so*-called material things, happiness. Best save time and utilize it for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all right? Yogeśvara: Any more? Jyotirmāyī: Yes, and just one more. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jyotirmāyī: Because you were saying that the parents can keep their children and teach them themselves, like Arundhatī is teaching Aniruddha. So does it mean that the parents can . . . Prabhupāda: He complained that, "My boy is not being properly . . ." So I said that, "You teach your son." Jyotirmāyī: And she can keep him and teach him all the time? Until he's older and so on? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. That is the duty of the father and mother. Along with that, he can teach others also. (coughing) These things are to be organized. But some way or other, our students should be given education and spiritual life, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Individually, collectively, somehow or other. The principle is laid down there, brahmacārī guru*-kule vasan dānto guror-hitam . That's the beginning. Everything is there, we have to simply follow. We haven't got to manufacture anything. That is waste of time. Whatever is there, you follow. Is that all right? Devotees: Yes. Thank you. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) *Yogeśvara: . . . hand*-loomed silk. Prabhupāda: Thailand silk. (coughing) Yogeśvara: Yes. He has invited me to go to Thailand to meet the Prime Minister in October. Prabhupāda: Oh, if there is interview, you must go. Yogeśvara: Yes. Perhaps you would like to tell me on what level I should present our movement. *Prabhupāda: On the level of Bhagavad*-gītā . God is the supreme controller, and we have to learn how to remain peacefully under the supreme controller. Just like citizens and the government. Good citizenship means one who lives under the control of the government. Similarly, good person means one is God conscious and lives according to the instruction of God. So there is instruction of God, (coughing) we are presenting this all over the world. Yogeśvara: And they should give us some facilities? Prabhupāda: Yes. "We want to preach. Here also, if you give us facility, we can preach. That is after your interest." Yogeśvara: This one gentleman has already offered one house in Bangkok. He's put at our disposal, in the middle of the city, a very beautiful house. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is very nice. Yogeśvara: But now I'm wondering how should this should be managed, who should take charge of this project. Prabhupāda: No, we can send some men from India. Bangkok is not far away from India. If we get a living place, then we can find out. When there are rice thrown, the crows will come. If there is no rice, how the crows will come? This is the philosophy. (laughter) If there is living place, then many crows will come. Yogeśvara: So we can first go and see the situation and then contact our men in India. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Men will be supplied from India. What is his name? Send him some thanks. Yogeśvara: Yes, Mr. Boonsoong. I'll give it to you now. Jaya , very nice. Prabhupāda: He's a Hong Kong man? Yogeśvara: No, he is from Thailand. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Bangkok. Yogeśvara: And he's a multimillionaire. He owns approximately one third of all the land in Thailand. Prabhupāda: Oh! Hari-śauri: Very important man. Yogeśvara: Chairman of many big businesses. Prabhupāda: You have given books? Yogeśvara: He has received books. Prabhupāda: Where you met him? Yogeśvara: His former secretary is now a devotee in this temple. She is from Thailand. And when he came to visit her in Paris, she introduced me to him, and since then he has spoken about us to his family, to businessmen. Many big people in Thailand. Hari-śauri: People in Thailand are quite pious. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are Indian culture. Their original culture is Indian. It is called Siam (pronounces like Śyām ), Kṛṣṇa's name. And they have got the airplane, Garuda. Hari-śauri: Yes. Garuda Airlines. Prabhupāda: So they are devotees originally, all Kṛṣṇa devotees. Yogeśvara: The king is speaking Sanskrit. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It was known. It has been changed now. Formerly, (coughing) it was known as Syam state, Siam. Syam is the name of Kṛṣṇa. Whole state was named under Kṛṣṇa. So, and they manufacture very nice idol of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. They're accustomed. Hari-śauri: They have a very strong Buddhist influence there now. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Buddhist. Prabhupāda: Later on, they became Buddhist, but originally they were Vaiṣṇava. Yogeśvara: So they will not make some objection if they are thinking we have come to preach Hinduism in a Buddhist country? Prabhupāda: It is not . . . don't establish Deity. Talk on philosophy. Yogeśvara: "God is the supreme controller." Prabhupāda: Yes. We accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God. Show in our books that we have got all respect for Buddha. We do not disrespect Lord Buddha, neither go against him. (coughing) Anyway, if we get one house to live and a supporter, a big supporter, then our position will be secure. And if our cause is honest, then nobody can check. Yogeśvara: He has said that first I should come and speak to the Prime Minister and then speak at the University, and then see the reaction, and then we can go to see the king and say that this has been the reaction at the universities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it organizedly. They understand French language? Yogeśvara: Yes, English and French. They are very close to Vietnam. They speak French. Prabhupāda: Very good. Take this opportunity. (coughing) Yogeśvara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (end) *Bhūgarbha: Many scholars are appreciating more and more. And on the University of Edmonton, in Alberta, Canada, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he was a linguist, professor of linguistics. He's a very pious man, and he is writing a book with some other professor in the Religion department on the comparative study of bhakti in the Indian tradition and the Hebrew tradition. And he's using your books as his only source for the Indian tradition. So he ordered not only one set of all the books, but two sets of all your books. Three sets actually. He ordered one set of Bhāgavatams for his own personal library, then he ordered two sets for the University library—one for the reference section and one for the general section. So he ordered three sets. And when his book comes out, in the back they have a bibliography section, references, and he will give reference to all your books. He was wondering . . . he's writing this book about bhakti , and he said: "What is a good definition of bhakti for the Indian tradition?" So I showed him Nectar of Devotion , anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). He said that is very good, and he wrote it down and put it in his book. Prabhupāda: Till now, they took bhakti as a matter of sentiment. Religious science they did not know, all over the world. Bhūgarbha: He said he's trying to show that by studying bhakti in Indian tradition and also in Hebrew tradition, he's . . . Prabhupāda: Bhakti is not achieved by studying. Bhakti stage is achieved by practice. That is the special significance of our institution, that we are engaging our men in practicing. Therefore they are getting knowledge—not by reading. Bhūgarbha: He was saying there are certain social and economic conditions that need to be present before bhakti can come about. Prabhupāda: Bhakti can solve everything—social, economical, cultural, religious, everything. (coughing heavily) So Dr. Joseph saw all my books? *Bhūgarbha: Every one he saw. We showed him some . . . he was very happy to see the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Yes, I offered him the post of editing. Bhūgarbha: Now he's sorry. Now he's simply sitting in debt. (means: he feels he can't repay his debt to you) Prabhupāda: But he did not say no. He wanted to do conveniently. Then I thought, it will not be . . . (coughs) "When he will return, he'll do it." That is not possible. Bhūgarbha: He gave me some of his books that he wrote. He gave me some to read. And actually the English in your books is much better than his books, so better he's not editing. It's coming out better. Prabhupāda: No, he's not a good English scholar. Bhūgarbha: Actually, he speaks perfect French also. And he got his Ph.D. from the University of Paris. Prabhupāda: Paris or Dutch as well. Bhūgarbha: He's been every place. He went to . . . in Paris he got in the Sorbonne, and also in Pondicherry they have one French Institute, and there he got his Ph.D. And also in Holland there is one very important man. So by his letters we can . . . many people will take our books. Prabhupāda: No, he's undoubtedly very great Sanskrit scholar. He had written some book how to make the sacred thread, like that. How many knots should be there, how many . . . (laughter) Smārta Brahmin. *Bhūgarbha: Now he's written another book to show how his life is changing. His latest book was about the five chapters of the Dasama*-skanda , which is the rasa-līlā. That is his book now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhūgarbha: So he's changing smārta , now he's turning different. Prabhupāda: No, he has no training in bhakti . *Bhūgarbha: He said one nice thing. He said that without Jīva Gosvāmī's Ṣaṭ*-sandarbhas there's no question of understanding Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhūgarbha: He made that statement. Prabhupāda: (coughing) I met him when he was in Delhi once. Bhūgarbha: We were very inspired, in Delhi, that almost every college we went to, they already had your three books, and the librarians, they would remember. We would ask them, "When did you get these books?" They'd think, "Well, about ten, twelve years ago, some sannyāsī came. We purchased." Prabhupāda: So they remembered. Bhūgarbha: They were . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So now they took others? Bhūgarbha: Now . . . we said that, "You've begun, this is only the beginning. You cannot have incomplete set." They said: "Yes, we cannot have incomplete," so they took the rest. And also that man, that Shastri, the Ministry of Education? That man Mr. Shastri, in the Ministry of Education, the Rātrī of Sanskrit- samsad , he bought fifty copies? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhūgarbha: He's also, I think, taken fifty standing orders now to complete wherever he is. Prabhupāda: He is still there? Bhūgarbha: No, he has shifted now. He's in Darbhanga. But his successor, he's taken. We just made copy, it is printed in your *Bhāgavatam* . So he made true copy on some paper, and he has two copies of the last order, and this is the balance of his subscription, so now he should take. Prabhupāda: That is Education Ministry. Bhūgarbha: They're only giving the Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: They can take at least fifty copies of each. Bhūgarbha: Yes. So he's doing that now. Prabhupāda: They gave me order, I dispatched by post, and if the acknowledgement received, I submitted my bill, they paid. Bhūgarbha: We're going to find the list of which universities you sent to, because we only found . . . not that many. Prabhupāda: That will be a waste of time. (laughter) So many things I did not keep record. Bhūgarbha: Even in Poona, they had, the Deccan College in Poona. They also had. We sent to them also. They also ordered balance. Prabhupāda: In Bombay also I supplied to so many colleges. And the Public Library. Bhūgarbha: That Royal Asiatic Society. Prabhupāda: Ah. Bhūgarbha: In Bombay they purchase all the books. We had to do a little negotiation with them, but they purchased everything. Then the Calcutta Royal Asiatic Society, they wrote us a letter, they said that, "These books are the best," the letter came like that, but that "we have no funds to purchase, so can you please send us free of charge?" Prabhupāda: They have no funds? Asiatic? Bhūgarbha: They said like that. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Nowadays people are not interested in cultural societies. They are simply for belly. How to earn money, that's all. Śūdra mentality. The brāhmaṇa mentality is gone. In America also, people are not joining cultural classes of philosophy. Hayagrīva said that he has no job because nobody is taking English as literary study. Nobody's interested. They are taking to technology. Bhūgarbha: Science. Prabhupāda: Science means how to make the motorcar wheel, that's all. This is their science. Bhūgarbha: In America, the professors complain to us. When we try to sell them personal books, they should take books themselves, they say that the salary of a college professor in America is the same as the salary of a waiter in some hotel. That is the respect they are given. Prabhupāda: Sometimes they are called church mouse. Church mouse. A mouse in the church, what he'll eat? He's in a householder's place, a mouse is there, he can eat something. But church, nobody's eating there. Simply dust, that's all. (laughter) Church mouse. Any new mail? Harikeśa: Stacks of it. Quite a lot. Prabhupāda: Oh. Where from? Harikeśa: Want to go over it now? Shall we go over everything now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Jyotirmāyī is outside, and Yogeśvara. We can have them come in? Prabhupāda: Just fix on the light. Bhagavān: Is now the right time to ask? She has some questions on gurukula . Is now okay? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . has not come? Harikeśa: They haven't come as yet. Bhagavān: Yogeśvara has just come back from Italy. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the news, Italy? *Yogeśvara: They've finished the preparation for the printing of the French edition of Kṛṣṇa Book and Śrī Upadeśāmṛta and the Italian Bhagavad*-gītā , and they should be ready within the next ten days. Prabhupāda: French language. *Bhagavān: And Italian Bhagavad*-gītā is done. Prabhupāda: What is the political position of the Fascist and Communist? Yogeśvara: Very mixed up. Bhagavān: They are called Christian Democrats. (laughs) Prabhupāda: They can manufacture so many. Fertile brain in the tract of deserted world. This world is desert, and they have got fertile brain. They call? The fertile land in the deserted land, in the desert, is called oasis. So similarly, these rascals, they have got fertile brain in the world of desert, but there is no happiness. But they have got fertile brain how to manufacture happiness. And māyā kicks on their face and baffles everything. This is the illusion. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā ( BG 7.14). They, the world is desert, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), but they have got fertile brain, how to become happy. And as soon as they make some arrangement, kicks on his face and broken. That's all. What do you think? Is it right? Sometimes you have got fertile brain. (laughter) This fertile brain, he will not accept. He'll be kicked out. Everything will be finished. If you want to be happy, then you have to go back home, back to Kṛṣṇa. That is the only way. Otherwise, your fertile brain will not help. What do you think, Jyotirmāyī? You are intelligent. Jyotirmāyī: I came to ask you some questions about the gurukula , because now if I don't ask them today . . . Prabhupāda: So gurukula means . . . find out that chapter, brahmacārī gurukule. Hari-śauri: 7.10 (background discussion about which verse) Prabhupāda: Vasan dānto guror hitam. (SB 7.12.1) The beginning of life is how to become cent percent obedient to guru . That is gurukula . That training should be given. The whole process is that our life will be successful when we strictly follow guru and Kṛṣṇa. Guru means Kṛṣṇa; *Kṛṣṇa means guru . Not Māyāvāda, but guru means one who follows Kṛṣṇa, he is guru . Sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ . So guru is directly God, sākṣād-hari. Sākṣād means "directly." So sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas , in every śāstra it is said the guru is God, Kṛṣṇa. So it is stated in the śāstra and it is accepted by authorities. Not that it is simply stated. Samasta-śāstrair, ukta . You understand little Sanskrit? *Jyotirmāyī: Some verses from Bhagavad*-gītā . *Prabhupāda: Huh? Ukta, ukta means "said." And sadbhiḥ , "by great personalities." Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas, tathā, and "accordingly"— tathā means "accordingly". Bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ , those who are actually in transcendental platform, they should accept it. So why? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva . . . it does not mean Māyāvādī, that he has become God. But kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya , he is the most confidential servant. He's therefore servant-God. He's God—servant-God. God is master-God. Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. So why he has become priya ? That is, Kṛṣṇa says personally, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69): nobody is dearer than him in the whole world. Why? Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidā . . . (BG 18.68), "who preaches this gospel of Bhagavad-gītā amongst My devotees." So the guru has got two business, he has to make devotee and teach them the principles of Bhagavad-gītā . Therefore he's so dear. Not that he has become God, not Māyāvādī philosophy. He's living entity, but because he acts very confidentially on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, therefore he's as good as God. This is going on. Not the Māyāvādī philosophy, that guru has become God. Guru is God, not become. He's servant-God. And Kṛṣṇa is master-God. So the success is that both the Gods, when one is accepted by both the Gods, then his life is success. Guru*-kṛṣṇa kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Therefore one has to fix his faith staunchly in the bona fide guru . So if one has got bona fide guru , and if he follows that bona fide guru , then his life is success. This is the process. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair . So gurukula means to teach how to become very, very faithful, cent percent faithful, to the bona fide guru . That is guru . So you have to teach like that—by behavior, by life, by action. That is gurukula . This sum and substance of . . . brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānto guror hitam. Where is that? Harikeśa: We don't have the book. Prabhupāda: What you have got? Simply your face, that's all. I'll have to see your face. Why this book is not there? Hari-śauri: It's 7.3. There was only your copies are available at the moment, and we gave it to George Harrison. Prabhupāda: And you could not secure any more. Hari-śauri: The only other copy is in New York. Prabhupāda: Any other Bhāgavata ? Just see. Reference book must be always there. This is the principle of gurukula . Now from this platform, on this understanding, you have to organize. *Jyotirmāyī: You were saying that there are mainly three principles to learn: how to be obedient, how to know, read your books and be self*-controlled. So that's what I explained to the teacher, that they should keep that. *Prabhupāda: Guru says there are four principles to be followed. They should be taught in that way. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating, no intoxication. Guru says that you chant at least sixteen . . . that should be taught, learning, rise early in the morning, that should be taught. So whatever guru say, you have to teach them perfectly, from childhood—then there will be no deviation when they are grown-up. Jyotirmāyī: We have them chant now down there. When they chant japa , they chant very enthusiastically. So the teacher himself chants . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. According to age, according to . . . but this is the principle. Gurukula means to learn how to become obedient, self*-controlled and act on behalf of guru . This is gurukula . Not to learn grammar very scholarly, grammarian. No, that is not gurukula . There are many thousand scholar —who cares for them? Put in the life. That is important. Our movement has drawn the attention of the world on account of life and the knowledge. They are finding the knowledge in the book and they are finding the practical application in life. That is the important thing. Books there are many, but the books as they are described, they are being followed. That is gurukula . Find out. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: Yes? Prabhupāda: Guror hitam . So brahmacārī , a brahmacārī should live in the gurukula for the following purposes. The first is that he should be trained up how to control the senses. So that, if you teach any child from the childhood, he'll be trained up. In that case, that female children should be separated. Jyotirmāyī: I wanted to know also what should we do once they are sixteen, because you said they should be trained in a gurukula until they are sixteen. So once they are sixteen . . . *Prabhupāda: Once Sarasvatī said that, "We have no sex with woman." (laughter) So, innocent, she does not know. So that is, if they are kept separate, they remain innocent. And they are taught that all women should be addressed as mother. Whatever you get it, self*-control. And female children should be taught how to become faithful to the husband and to learn the arts of cooking, arts of painting—that should be their subject matter. Jyotirmāyī: Painting? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sixty*-four arts, Rādhārāṇī did. Then She could control Kṛṣṇa. Jyotirmāyī: So after they have learned all the academics—reading, writing, all these . . . *Prabhupāda: Academic is ordinary, A*-B-C-D, that's all. Not very much. But these arts. They should learn how to cook nicely. Jyotirmāyī: And what should the boys be taught from ten to sixteen? *Prabhupāda: The principle is same, that when they grow up they learn the śāstra . The more they read, the more they learn. Then they become preacher, teacher. The grown*-up children, those who are fifteen, sixteen, they can teach five, six years old. Jyotirmāyī: Then they can take responsibility themselves. Prabhupāda: In this way. Elderly student . . . that is the way of Indian teaching, that there is one teacher, and how he's managing hundreds? That means there are groups. One who is elderly student, he's taking some beginners: "Write a or A like this." That he can teach. What he has learned, he can teach. Similarly, next group, next group. So in this way, one teacher can manage hundreds of students of different categories. This is organization. Not that "Everything I have to do. I cannot teach anybody to do it," that is not intelligence. Intelligence is that employ other to help you. That is intelligence. Not that "Oh, I was busy, I could not do it." Why? What about your assistant? Train assistant so that in your absence things can be done. So the elderly students, they should be . . . just Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He used to do that. When He was sixteen years old He could argue with Keśava Kāśmīrī, because He was practiced. Jyotirmāyī: And you explained that they should be . . . Prabhupāda: In this way, stage after stage, everyone should be expert. Everyone should be teacher and student. Bhagavān: The boys, they should learn how also to cook? *Prabhupāda: Huh? I never said that. Why you are bringing that question? I said the girls should be. Cooking is not boy's business. But cooking is not very difficult art. If they want, the boys can . . . (coughs) There are so many. In the Bhakti*-rasāmṛta sindhu it is stated how Rādhārāṇī was qualified. So these things should be taught to the girls. If the girls are taught to give service to the husband to the greatest satisfaction, there will be no disagreement. Yogeśvara: Can the older boys be trained in a particular kind of devotional service? For example, Press work? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Everything is devotional. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). There are varieties. We are not Māyāvādī, impersonalist, " Aham brahmasmi —finished, all business." It is not like that. So whatever business is going on in our movement, everything should be taught according to the capacity, boy or girls, it doesn't matter. Some department is suitable for the boy, some department are suitable for the girl. In this way, they should be trained up. But everyone should be trained up to give service. That is gurukula . (coughing) And brahmacārī , this sex impulse should be controlled. That ruins the whole character. Our big, big sannyāsīs are becoming victimized. So that is the danger. Woman is good, man is good; when they combine together, bad. This is the material world. Both of them are good, but when they combine together, they are bad. This is material world. In the spiritual world, there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore it is always good. Everyone is part and parcel of God, so they are good. In the spiritual world, they combine together, it becomes bad . . . in the material world. In the spiritual world there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore they are always good. So you have to train like that. In the spiritual world there are very, very beautiful woman, thousand, thousands times. Here, in the heavenly planets, they are calculated the best perfectional body of the woman. But in the spiritual world, still further. But there is no attraction of sex. They are working together, serving together, everything. But the sex attraction, there is no. They are elevated so much in the service of the Lord . . . sex attraction is a kind of pleasure. *So there are different types of pleasure. Here, if somebody, good foodstuff is there, and—that is also another sense pleasure—and by the time one beautiful woman is canvassing, "Now, come and let us enjoy," he will give up this good food. He'll go for sex, because he will think this is better than that. So one pleasure is rejected if one is engaged in better pleasure. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). So in the spiritual world the service of the Lord is so pleasing that they can neglect this sex pleasure. That is spiritual world. They have no attachment for sex pleasure. Yadāvadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāmānudyata bata nārī-saṅgame bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭu (Yāmunācārya). That is spiritual world. When one spits on the sex pleasure, that means he is elevated in spiritual life. So in the material world that is not possible. But by training, by knowledge, one can be elevated. That is gurukula . So these are the general principles. Now arrange. Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking about that, that because the girls are trained like brahmacārīnis also in the gurukula , they should be also kept very, very simple, just like the little boys, brahmacārīs . Prabhupāda: No, our life is simple. We don't want luxury. We don't want luxury, but as we are accustomed in so many ways, as far as possible. But life should be very simple. To increase unnecessary things unnecessarily, that is material life. Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking in that way—simple clothes, no jewels, just like the boys, simple . . . *Prabhupāda: Don't say "no." But give a taste for the good, then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," then he'll . . . they will rebel. The four "no's," that is very difficult. Still they are breaking. No illicit sex, they are breaking. But if they develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this will be automatically "no." So don't bring many "no's," but give them positive life. Then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," that will be a struggle. This is the psychology. (coughing) Positive engagement is devotional service. So if they are attracted by devotional service, other things will be automatically "no." Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Just like Ekādaśī day. Ekādaśī day, we observe fasting. And there are many patients in the hospital, they are also fasting, but there is no "No." They'll, within heart, "If I get, I shall eat, I shall eat." But those who are devotee, they are voluntarily "no." The same fasting is going on for the devotees and the hospital patient. And that "no" and this "no," there is difference. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. It is not meant for the mass of people, but at least if we keep a section of people ideal to the human society, they will be guided. At the present moment, there is no ideal section. Everyone is rascal, demons, rogue, everything. There is no ideal character. All politician, scientist, leader they are all drunkards and woman*-hunters. So what they can lead? There is no ideal man in the society. The politicians are giving big, big speech in the United Nation. They'll go to the same hotel where another debauchee is dancing and drinking. That's all. That is his character. Is it not? So what he will do? He can give very big speech, that's all. What is his character? There is no ideal character in the present human society. Do they appreciate our these restriction? Bhagavān: Our restrictions? Yes, they are impressed. They sometimes write about the gurukula that we are treating roughly the children by making them so austere. But every time they show the picture, the children are always happy. *Prabhupāda: (coughing) They have standardized their happiness on this principle—illicit sex, meat*-eating, gambling. That is the standard. And if you deny that, they say: "Oh, it is impossible. This is the primary principles of life." Yes. Such a big man like Ronaldsay, he said: "Oh, it is impossible." He was a big man, philosopher, very nice gentleman—still he said: "Oh, it is impossible." Bhagavān: (to Jyotirmāyī) You have any . . . Jyotirmāyī: Yes. You were saying that the children should learn these three, geography and these things, and I wanted to know if they should also learn what they call biology, that is how the body is working, what are the bones and blood and . . . Prabhupāda: What is the use? What is the use? Jyotirmāyī: Just to have some general knowledge . . . Prabhupāda: Simply waste of time. Simply waste of time. Jyotirmāyī: Even the basic of this? Prabhupāda: What is the basic? What you will know by that? Biology is going on, you study or not study. You are eating, it is transforming into blood, everyone knows. And how he's transforming into blood, what is the use? Jyotirmāyī: You were saying they should learn geography and history, just for general knowledge. Prabhupāda: That is because you have to go from America to India. You must know. (laughter) You have to calculate "Two plus two equal to four," a little mathematics. But this biology and this "logy," they are useless. There is no necessity. What you'll gain by understanding biology? Even one who knows biology, the medical man, he gives a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." "Perhaps." He's not sure. So what is the use? First of all he'll take one ounce blood from you, and they send, this station, that station, now making a chart, then he'll give a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." And this is going on. Even the biggest pathologist, medical man, cannot guarantee that whatever medicine he is giving is you . . . (break) We are not independent. Yogeśvara: Some group doctors? Some portion of the devotees, medicals knowledge? Prabhupāda: There is no harm. But when medical men are available by paying something, why should you waste your time? There are so many things we purchase, you pay for them. Not that we have to learn everything. So many things we have to do. Does it mean that you have to learn everything? Hari-śauri: There's lots of doctors, but there's no Brahmins , devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the principle is, no, don't waste time. If one has already learned medical science, all right, bring him to some service. But not that our men has to go to the medical college to learn medical science. That is not the point. Jyotirmāyī: So because we're in the country, I was taking the children in the land here and teaching them how to recognize the different plants. Is that useful, or should I not do that? Prabhupāda: Different plants? Jyotirmāyī: Plants, yes. Here we have so many different plants growing, some medical plants, some that can be eaten. Is there any use? Prabhupāda: No. Different plants, that is botanical study; *that has also no utilization. But you can teach them, "Just see, this plant is coming from earth. The earth is the mother of this plant." These things you can convince them. Is it not a fact? The grass is coming, the tree is coming, and the animal eating grass. Then the animal is coming. The man is eating food grains, then man is coming. So originally the earth is the mother, feeding everyone. Is there any denial? What do you think? So earth is the mother of all living entities, convince them. So all living entities are children. Mother earth is the mother. The father? Where is father, find out. Everyone has got idea, father, mother and children. Children are there. The mother is there. Where is the father? If somebody says: "I have not seen the father. How can I recognize father?" that does not mean . . . because the mother is there, because the children are there, there must be father. If you do not know, try to know it from your mother, from your superior—from Veda*-mātā . You have to know from the Vedas . Bhagavān: So at that young age they can very easily develop faith in Kṛṣṇa and guru . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā. *That's all. That study will be nice. Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ. Just like father gives the seed, similarly, Kṛṣṇa give the seed. The seed, when pushed into the womb of the mother and properly nourished, a rose plant comes out. This plant comes out. The seed is there. It is very easy. The father injects the seed within the womb of the mother, and the childs come out. Similarly, whatever is coming out from the earth, the seed-giving father is Kṛṣṇa. And when the seed is pushed within the womb of the mother, then the plant is coming, and everything. This nature's law is going on. Where is the necessity of understanding more than this? We understand the mother is pregnant. Now how she has been, how the child is growing, that is not under your control. It is going on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27), immediately it is in hand of the nature. Even if you study, you cannot understand how things are arranged—the intestine is joined to the navel of the child and the food is supplied, how it is mechanical . . . do you know everything? Can anyone do? Can anyone understand? But things are there. That is being done by prakṛtiḥ . Even if you study, you cannot understand. So best thing is to understand that it is being done by nature under the instruction of Supreme Lord. Let us chant Hare Kṛṣṇa instead of studying these . . . there are many students, many botanists, many . . . they, vaguely they are studying, and they have no understanding of Kṛṣṇa. They're denying, rather, the father. The child has come into existence without father. This is their knowledge. So instead of becoming such a fool and rascal, it is better not to study. Jyotirmāyī: I also thought of a way to help the children remember the *Kṛṣṇa Book* stories easier. It was . . . you started that long time ago with Madhupuri, you asked her to make the *Kṛṣṇa Book* into poem. That was long time ago in New York. Then she didn't do it . . . Prabhupāda: *Kṛṣṇa Book* is not difficult to be understood by . . . Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking if we make into poem and put music and they sing it, then they sing it they can remember . . . Prabhupāda: That you can do, to make it understandable easily. It is already easy. If you want to make more easy, then do that. Jyotirmāyī: Okay. You also allowed . . . you said that some parents can keep their children with them and teach themselves. *Prabhupāda: You follow that, brahmacārī guru*-kule vasan, that I've already explained. That should be done. Don't bring any new thing, imported ideas. That will not be helpful. It will be encumbrance. "My experiment with truth"—Gandhi's movement. Truth is truth. "Experiment" means you do not know what is truth. It is a way of life. Everything is stated there, try to train them. Simple thing. We are not going to teach biology or chemistry. They are not going to . . . our students are not going to. Our students should be fit for teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By their character, by their behavior, by their knowledge, that is wanted. Biologists, chemists, physicists and mathematicians there are hundreds and thousands. We are not going to waste our time that gurukula should produce a great grammarian, a great geologist, biologist. Don't want that. There are many other educational institutes. If you can get a good driver of your car, so what is the use of waste your time to learn driving? Is it not? If you have got important business, you can do that. Why should you waste your time to learn driving? Better employ one driver, pay him some fare. Harikeśa: You once said in Vṛndāvana that the Marwaris, they don't bother going to school because they can make a lot of money by sitting by the phone and just pay a few rupees a day and any educated fool can do the work. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they do that. They are employing in their factories big, big chemist, big, big physicist, engineer and so on, but they do not bother. They are paying thirty thousand rupees per month salary, Birla. Expert, imported from foreign countries. But their sons are never troubled. (coughing) They know how to utilize that worker of thirty thousand rupees per month and to earn thirty lakhs from him. Why shall he waste his time? He knows how to . . . they earn. They pay a man thirty thousand and through him earn thirty lakhs . Actually, in order to make a balanced society, the varṇāśrama*-dharma is very important, cooperation. So these things are meant for the śūdras. Brāhmaṇas are not meant for this. Yogeśvara: You once told me that a brāhmaṇa must know how to do everything perfectly so that he can teach others. Prabhupāda: That may be, you may be a teacher, but you'll remain only a worker. That is another thing. Just like Dronācārya, he taught, he remained a teacher. So we can become a teacher of a particular subject matter, but that does not mean you should be worker. Still, there are many professors, they are teacher; *they are not worker. But if the teachers are available, why you should become a teacher? Let them teach. We have to save our time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. After all, this, in the modern world they have invented so many varieties of occupation unnecessarily, to develop economic condition. Is it not? But our philosophy is that you cannot develop your economic condition, then you are destined to suffer or enjoy. So one should not waste his time for so*-called development of economic condition. He should utilize his time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which was not possible in any other form of life. When we had cat's and dog's life, tree's life, we could not do that, development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now we have got human form of life, we should fully utilize it for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why should we waste our time for economic development? Economic development is not possible. Then every work, every city, they are trying to develop this economic condition, but they're simply struggling. Why they word it of "Struggle for existence" is there? It is not possible. Why there are varieties of social position? Everyone could come on the same standard. That is not possible. Anywhere you go, the three classes of men—upper class, middle class and lower class—is there. Is there any country where there is no these three classes, only the upper class? Is there any country? Yogeśvara: No. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use? (coughing) Anywhere you'll go, you'll find this upper class, (coughing) middle class and lower class. When I . . . in the beginning, I thought that America, everyone is richer class. So when I came, I saw the three classes are already there. The lower class, although the country has good facilities not to become lower class, still, voluntarily they are hippies, lower class. They are lying on the street. Although he has got very good opportunity to become first class, but he is lying on the street. Why? What is the answer? British Empire, London, the one is lying on the bench. New York, lying on the bench. There is no sufficient clothing. Why? Actually, he can live very comfortably, but why he's living in that condition? What is the answer? Harikeśa: It's his nature. *Prabhupāda: No, he has to live in that way. That is his destiny. You cannot change it by artificial ways. Even if he has got all the facilities, he will have to live like that. That is nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅgo 'sya sad*-asad janma yoniṣu (BG 13.22). This is . . . so therefore there is no use of so-called improvement. And you cannot do it. This is a fact. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovido. Find out this verse. Na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ . Your standard of happiness and distress must be there, because you are destined by the laws of nature. You have to suffer although you are born in America. In New York you can get very comfortable life there; *still, you have lie down on bench, "Lie down." Although you are born of a rich man's family, you have to become hippies: "Lie down here." Who can check this? What is that law. Do they know it? But there is a law. There will be a first class, second class, third class, fourth class. You cannot check it. Huh? That New York City, so cared for. Nasty road, streets. And always, every moment— dung*-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung, gu-gu-gu-gu-gu-gu-gu —fire. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka . Fire is blazing. Despite all arrangement, fire is blazing. How can you stop it? Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, saṁsāra-biṣānale, dibaniśi hiya jvale (Hari Hari Biphale 2). The blazing fire of poison is always going on. Taribāre nā kāinu upāya. And one has to make ways how to get out of this fire. That is intelligence. Read that. Harikeśa: "Persons who are actually intelligent and philosophically inclined should endeavor only for that purposeful end which is not obtainable even by wandering from the topmost planet (Brahmaloka) down to the lowest planet (Pātāla). As far as happiness derived from sense enjoyment is concerned, it can be obtained automatically in course of time, just as in course of time we obtain miseries, even though we do not desire them." Prabhupāda: This is philosophy. What is the purport? *Harikeśa: "Every man everywhere is trying to obtain the greatest amount of sense enjoyment for various endeavors. Some of them are busy engaged in trade, industry, economic development, political supremacy, etc., and some of them are engaged in fruitive work to become happy in the next life by attaining higher planets. It is said that in the moon the inhabitants are fit for greater sense enjoyment by drinking soma*-rasa , and the Pitrloka is obtained by good charitable work. So there are various programs for sense enjoyment, either during this life or in the life after death." *Prabhupāda: Such a pleasing planet, and these rascals say there is no life. The moon is described everywhere, the most pleasing planet. Actually, when there is moon in the sky, how it is pleasing. So that planet is meant for the high*-class pious persons, and they get their life for ten thousands of years. They live very comfortably, drink soma-rasa. These are the description we get from śāstra . And these rascals say it is desert. And we have to believe them. And practically we see how pleasing it is. As soon as the moon planet is there, the whole atmosphere becomes pleasing. And it is desert. And we have to believe these rascal scientists and disregard the description of the śāstra . What do you think? Is that very good intelligence? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: We disregard the statement of Vyāsadeva, and we have to accept the statement of a rascal drunkard. (laughter) We are not so unfortunate. So unfortunate, they can believe that. We cannot believe. Yogeśvara: Now they have published pictures of Mars. Prabhupāda: Let them do that, befool others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). Because others, they are blind, this blind man, whatever he says, they believe. They will say, "Perhaps ten millions of years ago there was life, perhaps." These things are going on. But we know every planet is full of living entity. There is regular life and there are streets. The streets are paved with pearls, corals, in Svargaloka. We have got information. And what is their information? Scratching some sand and bring it, that's all. As if sand is not available. But we give information there are planets where the pavements are with pearls. Go and bring some pearls. There is the ocean of milk. Bring some milk from there. And then we shall understand that you are making some research. Simply all over the universe dry sand? And here the population is increasing. Just see. We have to believe all this. Everything is by nature vacant, and all people and animals are here. And we have to believe that. Hmm. Read it. They are exposing more and more about their nonsensical scientific inquiry. Harikeśa: "Some are trying to reach the moon or other planets by some mechanical arrangement, for they are very anxious to get into such planets without doing good work. But it is not to happen. By the law of the Supreme, different places are meant for different grades of living beings according to the work they might have performed. By good work only, as prescribed in the scriptures, one can obtain birth in a good family, opulence, good education and good bodily features. We see also that even in this life one obtains a good education or money or bodily beauty. Similarly, in our next birth we get such desirable positions only by good work. Otherwise it would not so happen that two persons born in the same place at the same time are seen differently placed according to the previous work. But all such material positions are not permanent. The positions in the topmost Brahmaloka and in the lowest Pātāla are also changeable according to our own work. The philosophically inclined person must not be tempted by such changeable positions. He should try to get into the permanent life of bliss and knowledge where he will not be forced to come back again to the miserable material world, either in this or that planet. Miseries and mixed happiness are two features of material life, and they are obtained in Brahmaloka and in other lokas also. They are obtained in the life of the demigods and also in the life of the dogs and hogs. The miseries and mixed happiness of all living beings are only of different degree in quality, but no one is free from the miseries of birth, death, old age and disease. Similarly, everyone has his destined happiness also. No one can get more or less of these things simply by personal endeavors. Even if they are obtained, they can be lost again. One should not, therefore, waste time with these flimsy things, but one should only endeavor to go back to Godhead. That should be the mission of everyone's life." *Prabhupāda: That is our position. We should not waste a single moment for so*-called material things, happiness. Best save time and utilize it for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all right? Yogeśvara: Any more? Jyotirmāyī: Yes, and just one more. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jyotirmāyī: Because you were saying that the parents can keep their children and teach them themselves, like Arundhatī is teaching Aniruddha. So does it mean that the parents can . . . Prabhupāda: He complained that, "My boy is not being properly . . ." So I said that, "You teach your son." Jyotirmāyī: And she can keep him and teach him all the time? Until he's older and so on? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. That is the duty of the father and mother. Along with that, he can teach others also. (coughing) These things are to be organized. But some way or other, our students should be given education and spiritual life, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Individually, collectively, somehow or other. The principle is laid down there, brahmacārī guru*-kule vasan dānto guror-hitam . That's the beginning. Everything is there, we have to simply follow. We haven't got to manufacture anything. That is waste of time. Whatever is there, you follow. Is that all right? Devotees: Yes. Thank you. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) *Yogeśvara: . . . hand*-loomed silk. Prabhupāda: Thailand silk. (coughing) Yogeśvara: Yes. He has invited me to go to Thailand to meet the Prime Minister in October. Prabhupāda: Oh, if there is interview, you must go. Yogeśvara: Yes. Perhaps you would like to tell me on what level I should present our movement. *Prabhupāda: On the level of Bhagavad*-gītā . God is the supreme controller, and we have to learn how to remain peacefully under the supreme controller. Just like citizens and the government. Good citizenship means one who lives under the control of the government. Similarly, good person means one is God conscious and lives according to the instruction of God. So there is instruction of God, (coughing) we are presenting this all over the world. Yogeśvara: And they should give us some facilities? Prabhupāda: Yes. "We want to preach. Here also, if you give us facility, we can preach. That is after your interest." Yogeśvara: This one gentleman has already offered one house in Bangkok. He's put at our disposal, in the middle of the city, a very beautiful house. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is very nice. Yogeśvara: But now I'm wondering how should this should be managed, who should take charge of this project. Prabhupāda: No, we can send some men from India. Bangkok is not far away from India. If we get a living place, then we can find out. When there are rice thrown, the crows will come. If there is no rice, how the crows will come? This is the philosophy. (laughter) If there is living place, then many crows will come. Yogeśvara: So we can first go and see the situation and then contact our men in India. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Men will be supplied from India. What is his name? Send him some thanks. Yogeśvara: Yes, Mr. Boonsoong. I'll give it to you now. Jaya , very nice. Prabhupāda: He's a Hong Kong man? Yogeśvara: No, he is from Thailand. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Bangkok. Yogeśvara: And he's a multimillionaire. He owns approximately one third of all the land in Thailand. Prabhupāda: Oh! Hari-śauri: Very important man. Yogeśvara: Chairman of many big businesses. Prabhupāda: You have given books? Yogeśvara: He has received books. Prabhupāda: Where you met him? Yogeśvara: His former secretary is now a devotee in this temple. She is from Thailand. And when he came to visit her in Paris, she introduced me to him, and since then he has spoken about us to his family, to businessmen. Many big people in Thailand. Hari-śauri: People in Thailand are quite pious. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are Indian culture. Their original culture is Indian. It is called Siam (pronounces like Śyām ), Kṛṣṇa's name. And they have got the airplane, Garuda. Hari-śauri: Yes. Garuda Airlines. Prabhupāda: So they are devotees originally, all Kṛṣṇa devotees. Yogeśvara: The king is speaking Sanskrit. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It was known. It has been changed now. Formerly, (coughing) it was known as Syam state, Siam. Syam is the name of Kṛṣṇa. Whole state was named under Kṛṣṇa. So, and they manufacture very nice idol of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. They're accustomed. Hari-śauri: They have a very strong Buddhist influence there now. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Buddhist. Prabhupāda: Later on, they became Buddhist, but originally they were Vaiṣṇava. Yogeśvara: So they will not make some objection if they are thinking we have come to preach Hinduism in a Buddhist country? Prabhupāda: It is not . . . don't establish Deity. Talk on philosophy. Yogeśvara: "God is the supreme controller." Prabhupāda: Yes. We accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God. Show in our books that we have got all respect for Buddha. We do not disrespect Lord Buddha, neither go against him. (coughing) Anyway, if we get one house to live and a supporter, a big supporter, then our position will be secure. And if our cause is honest, then nobody can check. Yogeśvara: He has said that first I should come and speak to the Prime Minister and then speak at the University, and then see the reaction, and then we can go to see the king and say that this has been the reaction at the universities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it organizedly. They understand French language? Yogeśvara: Yes, English and French. They are very close to Vietnam. They speak French. Prabhupāda: Very good. Take this opportunity. (coughing) Yogeśvara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (end) Hari-śauri: The whole country could be like this if everybody was Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Prabhupāda: Very peacefully you can live. In the city you go, thousands of cars are running— ror*-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror. What is called? Flyway, expressway, downway. Every ten yards stop for the light. (laughter) How artificial life. And with all these things, if people would have been happy, all right. But they're not happy, in spite of all this advancement. Hari-śauri: Yes. Simply increasing their miseries. Prabhupāda: That's all. Problems. Hari-śauri: The bigger the buildings, the more anxiety they're in. Prabhupāda: Not only many cars, they new construct, new roads, new . . . increasing business, in the hope of happiness. But there is no happiness. Hari-śauri: Happiness is the last consideration. Prabhupāda: They are thinking that, "In this way we shall be happy." Hari-śauri: Get more money. *Prabhupāda: First of all, paved way, then flyway, then another flyway, then another flyway. In this way. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ ( SB 7.5.31). Hari-śauri: They're always striving for happiness, that's all. They never achieve it, they never get there. Prabhupāda: No. That is called māyā . Just like the animal is running after the mirage, water, but there is no water. Hari-śauri: He simply runs until he dies. Prabhupāda: That's all. This is going on. *Hari-śauri: Dogs on four wheels. (laughs) It was so nice sitting underneath the tree there, chanting. I was thinking this is what we could do forever, twenty*-four hours. No need to do anything else. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: Prospective place, this. Very future prospect. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. We're buying these big properties now. We don't have so many devotees, but we know just even in five years they're going to be packed. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Hari-śauri: Maybe now we don't have so many devotees for all these big places we're buying, but even just in five years or ten years they'll be full up. We'll have to expand more and more. Your idea for fifty percent for books, fifty percent for buildings, it's very wonderful. I remember in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta you said that the book distribution and the establishment of temples should go parallel lines, side by side. Prabhupāda: Going on. Up to date, to my satisfaction, it is going on. Hari-śauri: If you're satisfied, then we know it's going to be successful. Prabhupāda: But they fight amongst themselves, the GBCs. Hari-śauri: Hmm, that's the problem. Prabhupāda: I did not see Harikeśa. Hari-śauri: He was there. Prabhupāda: Oh, he was there? Hari-śauri: Yes. He's been feeling a bit ill today. Prabhupāda: Oh. This is thyme herbs? No. This is the seed. Hari-śauri: Oh, them. They grow it in the garden. The first, what you got, that was grown here. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Those twigs? They were grown here in the garden. Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) Hari-śauri: Would you like anything tonight? A piece of Chyavana Prash ? (Harikeśa enters) Prabhupāda: What is that? Harikeśa: This boy brought this. I wanted to just ask you if this was any good or not. This is nutmeg oil. Hari-śauri: This is the oil I was telling you about. *Harikeśa: And this is All*-Brand . . . Axe Brand Universal Oil, supposed to be for massages or something. Prabhupāda: Chinese? Harikeśa: (indistinct) . . . this is Chinese. Hari-śauri: It's got different . . . says menthol crystal, peppermint oil, eucalyptol oil, menthol salicilate, oil of lavender, chloroform BP, camphor powder and white oil. Prabhupāda: What is for? Harikeśa: Supposed to be for massaging. Hari-śauri: It's supposed to help the muscles. Prabhupāda: And what is this? Harikeśa: It's got the cap on it. Hari-śauri: Nutmeg oil. This is the one I was telling you about. Harikeśa: Take the cap off. Prabhupāda: They're all selling all this? Hari-śauri: No, this is not ours. Harikeśa: Rādhe-Śyāma dāsa brought this. Hari-śauri: It was brought by one of the devotees from . . . Thailand, was it? *Harikeśa: He was in Kuala*-Lumpur. Hari-śauri: He says he bought it from a Buddhist temple, big Buddhist temple. *Prabhupāda: Kuala*-Lumpur? There is a big Buddhist temple I know, I went there. Harikeśa: He said in a letter, he just wrote a little letter to you, that . . . you laid a cornerstone on some temple? About three, four years ago? *Prabhupāda: Kuala*-Lumpur? Yes. Harikeśa: It's finished. It cost a million dollars. And he says this man wants to give it to us. Prabhupāda: Oh, something, that gentleman . . . Harikeśa: It's a rather nice letter. Prabhupāda: Written by him? Harikeśa: No, this boy who was there. I'll bring him tomorrow. Prabhupāda: So we can take it. Yes. This is nice idea he has got. He has spent millions of dollars? Harikeśa: One million on the temple. Prabhupāda: Oh? How he got the money? Harikeśa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Maybe he was rich man. Hari-śauri: This was made in Penang. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Penang. Prabhupāda: Penang? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Penang also I visited. I stayed with one Indian gentleman. His wife made very nice kachorī . Hari-śauri: It doesn't matter wherever you go around the world . . . *Prabhupāda: They asked: "What you want to eat?" "If you can, you make first*-class kachorī ." That is from my childhood. My friends also did it. They'd make the first-class kachorīs in my youthhood. I am fond of kachorī. Kachorī is made first class in Mathurā, Agra and Mathurā. Very, very nice. The kachorī is being made, hundreds of customers waiting. At shops, there was many shops, waiting for purchasing. And as soon as it comes out of the pan, immediately sold. There is no question of waiting. They make so spices. That is India's craftmanship. Nobody will starve. If you have no business, he'll prepare something palatable and people will purchase, all over India. Hari-śauri: There's so many people on the railway station selling. Prabhupāda: There's no question of starvation for want of money. Anywhere sit down and do something palatable, and people will purchase. So your livelihood will go on. Pakorā, kachorī, jalebī , anything. You make some palatable, people are fond of eating some palatable things. That is their hobby. In Allahabad, there was a brāhmaṇa . I had my business, and he was neighborhood, he was living. So in the morning, the husband and wife would go to take bath in the Ganges. They would very nicely take bath, and while coming they will purchase some ingredients and then come home. The husband will perform pūjā , etcetera, and the wife will prepare many nice preparations— barā, pakorī, puchka (Indian snack), this, that. Then he'll take his meals, rest awhile, and in the evening he will sit down—he was sitting just in front of my shop—about four or five o'clock. All the preparations his wife had made whole day, and the small shop. And the university students will come up to night. Ten o'clock, he'll finish. Nothing will remain. Everything will be . . . and he'll make at least ten rupees' profit, minimum. In those days, 1925, in those days ten rupees means nowadays quite . . . at least fifty rupees. So, and living very happily. Living humbly as a brāhmaṇa , he was having his pūjā , going to the Ganges, taking bath, husband and wife, in the morning, and the wife's business is to prepare and his business was to sell. So they'll make at least ten, fifteen rupees' profit daily, very prosperous, living peacefully, husband and wife. There are many such family. The . . . if wife is very good, then his home is very nice. They cannot be unhappy at any circumstances. Dampatyoḥ kalaho nāsti tatra śrīḥ svayam āgataḥ. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. When there is full agreement between husband and wife, cooperation, then the goddess of fortune comes there without application. You haven't got to ask goddess of fortune, "Please come and help me." She'll come automatically. This is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. There are so many things in India culture for becoming happy and advancing towards the goal of life. Now I am appreciating for more and more, seeing the whole world, what is India's culture. Formerly I was thinking, "It is custom. To become faithful wife, this is custom." But when I come outside I see what is wife and what is faithful wife. In India, still, in the village, even there is fight between husband, wife, the wife is faithful. Still. Completely dependent on husband. The husband also, in spite of fighting, he is always careful that the wife does not get any inconvenience. It was the culture; now it is breaking. You can close that. In material world, for peaceful life there must be peaceful condition between the husband and wife. Everyone requires wife, everyone requires husband. (aside) Inside also do. Sex is necessary, so make the condition of sex very peacefully. Why disturbed? Make the condition that there will be . . . it is necessary. As eating is necessary, sleeping is necessary, for ordinary man, so sex is also necessary. So make a condition so that nothing will be disturbed, and in undisturbed condition of mind execute spiritual advancement. This is Indian civilization. Aim is spiritual advancement. And to make condition favorable, there are so many things. So unless we get favorable condition . . . here in the Western countries there is no favorable condition. First of all, they have no idea of spiritual life, the goal of life, neither there is favorable condition. And gradually things are becoming degrading. On my last tour in Chicago I saw. In three weeks she has twice divorced, one lady advertised. You remember it? Hari-śauri: I wasn't there that time. Harikeśa: I remember. Prabhupāda: You were there, yes. Is that life? How they can be happy if this is the condition? (pause) Prabhupāda: So what further advancement? Harikeśa: In reference? Hari-śauri: Tehran. Harikeśa: Oh, your tickets are definitely booked on the nonstop flight. I finally managed to . . . Prabhupāda: . . . take the ticket. Oh, we have got ticket. Harikeśa: The reservation, I mean . . . and if for some reason we can't get on that flight, we have reservations on another flight that arrives at . . . arrives four hours later. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Harikeśa: It changes. It leaves earlier and gets there four hours later. Was lunch all right today? Lunch? Your lunch was all right? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Was lunch all right? Prasādam ? Prabhupāda: The potatoes and karelā , it should be fried. Harikeśa: Yes, it was fried. I fried it with the cover on. Prabhupāda: No, not in the beginning. Fry it, and if it is still hard, then . . . Harikeśa: Then put the cover on. Oh, all right. Prabhupāda: Yes, not from beginning. Harikeśa: Oh, I made a mistake. Prabhupāda: If you cover from the beginning, the water which is already there, they will be coming out. And the idea is the water should be taken away. Then it will be tasteful. Still, it was good. Harikeśa: Should I cook if I still have this fever tomorrow? Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: Right now I have a fever. Prabhupāda: No, don't cook. Harikeśa: So if I have a fever I shouldn't cook for you? It's unhealthy for you, or . . .? Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: It won't bother me so much, but if it's unhealthy for you . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, I have no objection. But if you have got fever, why shall you? There are so many others. They can cook. Harikeśa: I cannot tolerate being sick any more. Prabhupāda: The body means sickness. The body itself is sickness. Harikeśa: In illusion I think I come back here, I get healthy. In illusion I think if I leave India and come here I will get healthy. But I come here, I also get sick. I go there, I also get sick. (laughs) You seem to be much better now. Prabhupāda: Yes, little better. (pause) (devotees leave) *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . thinking of how to utilize the whole land. The situation is very good, good prospect. I want that self*-independent here, as far as possible. But you have got enough materials. With woods you can make cottages. Then land becomes clear, then utilize it. Bhagavān: Cows. Prabhupāda: Cows, so many things. Free from all anxieties, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Life is meant for simply chanting. This should be the motto. But because we have got this body, we have to maintain it. That much. Otherwise, we have no ambition to become a very big man in this material world, enjoy it. This is all false, useless. He'll become a big man, and one day death comes and kicks him out. Just see. So these are all false attempts. It has no meaning. The meaningful life is, so long we live, become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. And tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). That is wanted. Give facility to the people. Here is very nice arrangement. Now make plan how to utilize. You have got enough land. You can utilize for supplying the necessities of life. Bhagavān: Yes. It's a very wonderful place. Prabhupāda: Yes. We can get many wonderful places like this all over the world. But they have not been taught how to utilize them. Bhagavān: I think in one year they have done nicely. They have built a greenhouse and planted all the cultivated land. Prabhupāda: No, they are working hard, there is no doubt about it. Bhagavān: And the temple also, Deity worship and everything. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Things are going nicely. There is no doubt about it. And children should be given that much education—to read and write and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Bhagavān: The devotees are talking how nice it was to sit outside with you and chant and hear you speak tonight. I remember the last time I was in New Vrindavan many years ago, when I first became a devotee. You were sitting outside, giving some lecture, series of lectures on Vyāsadeva and the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I like this life, from my very childhood. And on our roof there were trees, er, plants, flower plants, and . . . my grandmother, she . . . we, all grandchildren used to water it. So downstairs we took water in, what is called? A jhāri ? Bhagavān: Sprinkling can? Prabhupāda: Ah, sprinkling can. We all grandchildren, we were about half a dozen. So we took very much pleasure in watering. But my special tendency was that along with the plants, I, with the bushes, I'll sit down. My tendency. And I'll sit down for hours. I liked that, in my childhood. In my maternal uncle's house also, I was doing that. As soon as I find some bush, I make a sitting place. Bhagavān: It's hard to see how people could not be attracted to such a nice life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: And more and more people are coming. Prabhupāda: They'll come. First of all, this life is not for every man. Most fortunate man. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. Kona. Kona means someone; *it is not for everyone. Kona bhāgyavān . Find out this verse, Nineteenth Chapter, Madhya*-līlā. Bhagavān: (devotees look for verse) Brahmāṇḍa bhramite ? *Prabhupāda: Brahmāṇḍa bhramite. Guru*-kṛṣṇa. Find out. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā pāya. *Hari-śauri: Guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja . Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: "According to their karma , all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service." Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not for everyone. *Hari-śauri: There's a nice purport. Should I do the purport? "When we speak of brahmāṇḍa , we refer to the whole universe, or to the cluster of many millions of universes. In all universes, there are innumerable planets and innumerable living entities upon those planets in the air and in the water. There are millions and trillions of living entities everywhere, and they are engaged by māyā in suffering and enjoying the results of their fruitive activity life after life. This is the position of the materially conditioned living entities. Out of many of these living entities, if one is actually fortunate, he comes in contact with a bona fide spiritual master by Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart, and if one desires something, Kṛṣṇa fulfills one's desire. If the living entity by chance or fortune comes in contact with the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and wishes to associate with that movement, Kṛṣṇa, who is situated in everyone's heart, gives him the chance to meet a bona fide spiritual master. This is called guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāda . Kṛṣṇa is prepared to bestow His mercy upon all living entities, and as soon as a living entity desires the Lord's mercy, the Lord immediately gives him an opportunity to meet a bona fide spiritual master. Such a person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master. He is helped from within by Kṛṣṇa and from without by the spiritual master. Both are prepared to help the sincere living being become free from this material bondage." *"How one can become this fortunate can be seen in the life of Nārada Muni. In his previous life he was born of a maidservant. Although he was not born into a prestigious position, his mother was fortunately engaged in rendering service to some Vaiṣṇavas. When these Vaiṣṇavas were resting during the cāturmāsya period, the boy Nārada took the opportunity to engage in their service. Taking compassion upon the boy, the Vaiṣṇavas offered him the remnants of their food. By serving them and obeying their orders, the boy became the object of sympathy for the Vaiṣṇavas, and, by the Vaiṣṇavas' unknown mercy, he gradually became a pure devotee. In the next life he was Nārada Muni, the most exalted of Vaiṣṇavas and the most important guru and ācārya of Vaiṣṇavas. Following in the footsteps of Nārada Muni, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is rendering service to humanity by giving everyone a chance to come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. If one is fortunate, he becomes intimately related with this movement. Then, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one's life becomes successful. Everyone has dormant kṛṣṇa*-bhakti, love for Kṛṣṇa, and in the association of good devotees that love is revealed. As stated in Caitanya-caritāmṛta :" *"Dormant devotional service to Kṛṣṇa is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , dormant love for Kṛṣṇa is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151)." Prabhupāda: Then? Then? No, it is not finished? Hari-śauri: No, this is finished. Prabhupāda: Next verse? Hari-śauri: "When a person receives the seed of devotional service, he should take care of it by becoming a gardener and sowing the seed in his heart. If he waters the seed gradually by the process of śravaṇa and kīrtana (hearing and chanting), the seed will begin to sprout." *Purport: "To live with devotees or to live in a temple means to associate with the śravaṇa*-kīrtana process. Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution of śravaṇa-kīrtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who engaged in the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity. However, one should not falsely imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura and abandon Deity worship just to try to engage in śravaṇa-kīrtana . This is not possible for neophyte devotees." *"The word guru*-prasāda indicates that the spiritual master is very merciful in bestowing the boon of devotional service upon the disciple. That is the best possible gift the spiritual master has to offer. Those with a background of pious life are eligible to receive life's supreme benefit, and to bestow this benefit, the Supreme Personality of Godhead sends His representative to impart His mercy. Endowed with the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the spiritual master distributes the mercy to those who are elevated and pious. Thus the spiritual master trains his disciples to render devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called gurukṛpā . It is kṛṣṇa-prasāda , Kṛṣṇa's mercy, that He sends a bona fide spiritual master to the deserving disciple. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, one meets the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of the spiritual master, the disciple is fully trained in the devotional service of the Lord." *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja means 'the seed of devotional service.' Everything has an original cause, or seed. For any idea, program, plan or device, there is first of all the contemplation of the plan, and that is called bīja , or the seed. The methods, rules and regulations by which one is perfectly trained in devotional service constitute the bhakti-latā-bīja, or the seed of devotional service. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received from the spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Other seeds are called anyābhilāṣa-bīja, karma-bīja and jñāna-bīja . If one is not fortunate enough to receive the bhakti-latā-bīja from the spiritual master, he instead cultivates the seeds of karma-bīja, jñāna-bīja or political and social or philanthropic bīja . However, bhakti-latā-bīja is different from these other bījas. Bhakti-latā-bīja can be received only through the mercy of the spiritual master. Therefore one has to satisfy the spiritual master to get bhakti-latā-bīja ( yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ )." *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja is the origin of devotional service. Unless one satisfies the spiritual master, he gets the bīja , or root cause, of karma , jñāna and yoga without the benefit of devotional service. However, one who is faithful to his spiritual master gets the bhakti-latā-bīja. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master. After receiving the spiritual master's mercy, one must repeat his instructions, and this is called śravaṇa-kīrtana —hearing and chanting. One who has not properly heard from the spiritual master or who does not follow the regulative principles is not fit for chanting ( kīrtana ). This is explained in Bhagavad-gītā : vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana (BG 2.41). One who has not listened carefully to the instructions of the spiritual master is unfit to chant or preach the cult of devotional service. One has to water the bhakti-latā-bīja after receiving instructions from the spiritual master." I remember in Hawaii, this section here, it says a person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, and you said that Kṛṣṇa gives you the weapon and the spiritual master sharpens it, the weapon of knowledge, and in that way we can cut free from material bondage. Prabhupāda: The classes should be regularly held. Those who are engaged in the field work, then let them work, but woman or others, they should hear in the class. They should attend. Bhagavān: There is regular class for everyone in the afternoon, after prasādam . Prabhupāda: That's nice. ( kīrtana heard from downstairs) What they are saying now? Bhagavān: Downstairs? " Haribol ." People cannot understand how just by chanting enthusiastic kīrtana so many problems can be solved. Prabhupāda: Yes. What they understand, all rascals? Wasting time. Going to the moon planet, going to the Mars planet. Why? What you will gain? Still they are going. Simply spending money. In Bengal it is called ostrādi. Ostrādi , in English? One who places himself as very intelligent leader. What is called in one word? Bhagavān: Presumptuous? Prabhupāda: Presumptuous? Bhagavān: Presumes he's something that he's . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is a very nice word. Hari-śauri: An imposter? Prabhupāda: Imposter is falsely. It is not exactly falsely. Beginning with "p." (Hari-śauri looking in dictionary) Do you find there teacher ? Teachers , other things? Hari-śauri: Teacher? Prabhupāda: Teacher, and other synonyms. Find out the teacher . They have got so many synonyms. Hari-śauri: Teacher: "Educator, instructor, preceptor, master, tutor, coach, schoolmaster, schoolmistress, schoolmarm, pedagogue." Prabhupāda: Pedagogue, yes, this word. Hari-śauri: Pedagogy . . . how do you pronounce this word? Prabhupāda: Pedagogue. Hari-śauri: Yes. Pedagogue. Prabhupāda: This word, now you see what is the pedagogue in dictionary. Pedigree. Pedagogue—pedagogue or predagogue? Hari-śauri: Pedagogue. Here we are. "Pedagogue: schoolmaster, teacher." That's all it gives. "Pedagogy, science of teaching." Bhagavān: "Implying pedagy." Look up pedagy . "Implying pedagy." It says: "Usually derogatory." *Hari-śauri: Oh, "Pedant—one who overrates or parades book*-learning or technical knowledge or insists on strict adherence to formal rules. One always possessed by theory doctrinaire." Prabhupāda: Yes, this word. Hari-śauri: Pedant. Prabhupāda: Pedagogue? Bhagavān: Pedagogue is the first, yes. Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Hari-śauri: P*-e-d-a-g-o-g-u-e. *Prabhupāda: Peda. Peda. P-e-d*-a . *Hari-śauri: Yeah. P*-e-d-a-g-o-g-u-e. Pedagogue. Prabhupāda: Oh. Pedagogue. Not pedi , but peda . Hari-śauri: Pedagogue. Prabhupāda: Pedagogue. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: So they are going on, pedagogue. *Hari-śauri: And the other one is pedant. Pedant, "One who overrates or parades book*-learning." Prabhupāda: Pedantry, there is a word. Our Harikeśa was speaking that if they do not say there is life in Mars, then their whole propaganda will fail. Hari-śauri: Yes, I was saying that this morning. Prabhupāda: This time, if they say that there is no life in the Mars, they'll never get next chance, he said. I think it is meaningful. Bhagavān: It will substantiate our claim. Prabhupāda: No, our claim intelligent. They are loitering. Our claim is that they do not know anything about that. All foolish propaganda. But their position is that unless they say that there is life, then their this false propaganda will no longer run on. We are certain that they cannot go there, neither is it possible to understand what is there. Simply imagination. We do not give any credit. (pause) Hari-śauri: You said you had some plan? For the land here? When we came in, you were saying you had some plan for the land. Prabhupāda: Plan is that we have got woods. Cut the woods, make small cottages, and engage them for growing fruits, flowers, grains, and make the complete arrangement nicely. Water . . . Hari-śauri: Irrigation. Prabhupāda: In this way make it evergreen. Bhagavān: There was a question about the cows, that at what point should the calf be separated from the mother. Because sometimes when the calf is separated, the mother, she cries. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why separation? They should be given chance to drink milk. Bhagavān: But isn't there a point? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhagavān: There is a point when the calf is taken away from the mother? Prabhupāda: No, they should not be taken away. Bhagavān: Shouldn't be. Hari-śauri: I think in all our farms they do that. Bhagavān: I heard in New Vrindavan they took them away very early. Hari-śauri: The problem is that the calves drink so much milk that they become very sick, so they have to separate. Prabhupāda: Therefore they should not be allowed always. Once in a day, that's all. Hari-śauri: Oh. Prabhupāda: Not too much allowed, but once. At least when milking they should be allowed to drink little milk, and that will encourage the mother to deliver more milk. Hari-śauri: Oh. At the same time they're milking the cow, the calf can come. Prabhupāda: Yes. They can bring it, milk. And while milking, the calf may be standing before the mother. Hari-śauri: They do that in India. Prabhupāda: So she will not be sorry. Bhagavān: That's nice. Prabhupāda: Completely separation is not good. And after birth, at least for one week the calf should be allowed. Because after this giving birth, the milk is not fit for human consumption. The calf should not be allowed to eat more, but at the same time the mother must see once, twice. Then it will be all right. Of course, we are born in big, big towns; we do not know. But I know this is the process. In Allahabad I was keeping cow. There was facility. Bhagavān: I don't think our farms are doing like that. In New Vrindavan they do? Hari-śauri: What, letting the calves come? I don't think so. You can write a letter to them. The whole system's so perfect. It's completely satisfying in every respect. Prabhupāda: And if you make others dissatisfied for your pleasure, that is sinful. You should act in such a way that nobody is dissatisfied. Then there is balance. Hari-śauri: Expert management. Prabhupāda: You have got puffed rice? Hari-śauri: They may have some in the kitchen. I can check. They have flat rice. Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: Puffed rice. This Chyavana Prash , it says five to ten grams every morning with milk. Prabhupāda: With milk. Five to ten grams. Hari-śauri: Yes, that's like a spoonful. That's like a heaped spoonful. I think that's about what you're getting there. Prabhupāda: What we take, that is five to ten grams? Hari-śauri: Approximately. Maybe a little more. Prabhupāda: How much milk it is? Hari-śauri: Doesn't say, it just says with milk. So according to taste. Do you like to take . . . Prabhupāda: So in the morning. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: I'll go and find out about this . . . Prabhupāda: Puffed rice. (break) Bhagavān: (background discussion with devotees) Where is your husband? (devotees bring in vegetables) Zucchini? Hari-śauri: This is zucchini? This? Bhagavān: Yes. We should show Prabhupāda each thing that we're doing. (break) Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Everything's grown on the farm, he said. Devotee (1): These are flowers which decorate the vases. They are very tall. They put in the vases every day on the altar, Kṛṣṇa. And this morning . . . you have been there? Taking garlands made out of this. It smells very nice. And that's the carnation. It was the one I gave you yesterday on your walk. It has a very nice scent. Prabhupāda: No, you have got this cucumber? Devotee (1): Yes, there is cucumber. Prabhupāda: So if fresh, why not eat? Hari-śauri: We have fresh cucumber every day. Prabhupāda: But when I take it, it does not appear to be fresh. Devotee (1): These are bulk cucumbers. Devotee (2): This is fresh cucumber from the garden. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Tomorrow. Prabhupāda: The cucumber which is supplied to me, that is not fresh. Devotee (1): It is from the market. We were not aware that they had cucumber in the garden, because I asked . . . Prabhupāda: You are not aware? Why not? Devotee (1): I was not aware. Hari-śauri: He's our supplier. Prabhupāda: At least one cucumber, and this chili, you can make a nice salad. You say that there's no peas? Hari-śauri: There's no peas in the garden. Devotee (1): They are just ready actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They're just ready for picking now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (1): Beans you have had every day from the garden. Hari-śauri: Beans are very stringy. Devotee (1): Grapes. Prabhupāda: Oh, so many fresh things. Devotee (1): From the greenhouse they are, actually. Hari-śauri: What is this? Devotee (1): That is zucchini, only very small. (laughter) We let them get big to feed so many devotees. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Very nice, very fresh. So many things can be done. Hari-śauri: This is zucchini? Devotee (1): This is the same thing. Devotee (2): They call it marrow. Prabhupāda: This called, this is . . . I do not know what you call. It is called komura . It is very nice. Hari-śauri: We used to call them marrows. Zucchinis are small. Devotee (1): Tomato. It's an Italian type of tomato, and there's another one. Prabhupāda: This is apple? Devotee (1): Yes, that's for cooking. Hari-śauri: Cabbage. Devotee (1): Pears. Bhagavān: They're growing chickpeas. Devotee (1): Oh, chickpeas also, yes. Bhagavān: They're not ripe yet. Devotee (1): You can see inside, inside the pod, one chickpea. They have to go yellow on the plant, and then we pick them and then put them in sacks for the winter. Bhagavān: We have a whole field planted of chickpea. They're very expensive here, so it's nice. Prabhupāda: So you have got immediately some pods? Devotee (1): And also you have been taking the fresh coriander, dhaniya . Prabhupāda: Oh, nice. So, this pod? Devotee (1): Peas, beans. Prabhupāda: You have got some? Devotee (1): Yes, plenty, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (2): For tomorrow? Prabhupāda: Bring all them. (laughter) Hari-śauri: He supplies us every day. What's this? Woman devotee: This is lemon spinach. Devotee (1): A type of sour spinach. Tasty. Bhagavān: Tastes like a lemon. Prabhupāda: Yes. (tries it) Very good. Bhagavān: Anything else hidden in here? This is our apple? Devotee (1): Yes. They are our apples from the garden. Woman devotee: Sweet peas. Devotee (1): There's many varieties of flowers for the garlands and the vases, for almost the next two months. Prabhupāda: Grow more, more, all these fruits, flowers. Bhagavān: This is from ours? Woman devotee: Yes. Devotee (1): Rose. We are growing 2,500 . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Go and live happily. This is a . . . Devotee (1): Pear. Devotee (2): It's not yet ripe. Prabhupāda: You have got puffed rice? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So bring some this pod. Devotee (1): Tomorrow. Prabhupāda: I shall, with puffed rice, I shall take this. Hari-śauri: How do you want them cooking? Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll tell you. Let them bring. Hari-śauri: Bring some now? (laughter) Bhagavān: Glories to Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Give Mandākinī these peas. She'll . . . Hari-śauri: Now? Prabhupāda: Yes. She can . . . tomorrow she can utilize it for kachorī . I've asked her to make kachorī . Let them use this. Hari-śauri: They must have only just come ripe just this last week. Prabhupāda: So many things are growing. Puffed rice, you simply make it hot, dry, take it away, and then take some of the peas, put very little ghee and masālā and some peas, fry it nicely. Then put little water and cover it. When it is soft, you can add with it little these green chilis. Hari-śauri: These big ones? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not very much, but little. Hari-śauri: These are not very hot, the big ones. The small ones are the hot ones, but we don't have any of those left. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: And then mix them, or keep them separate? Prabhupāda: No, keep separately. They should be very soft. And the puffed rice, hot. Then mix with little ghee and masālā . Then, I'll take little. Hari-śauri: Jaya . (end) Hari-śauri: The whole country could be like this if everybody was Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Prabhupāda: Very peacefully you can live. In the city you go, thousands of cars are running— ror*-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror. What is called? Flyway, expressway, downway. Every ten yards stop for the light. (laughter) How artificial life. And with all these things, if people would have been happy, all right. But they're not happy, in spite of all this advancement. Hari-śauri: Yes. Simply increasing their miseries. Prabhupāda: That's all. Problems. Hari-śauri: The bigger the buildings, the more anxiety they're in. Prabhupāda: Not only many cars, they new construct, new roads, new . . . increasing business, in the hope of happiness. But there is no happiness. Hari-śauri: Happiness is the last consideration. Prabhupāda: They are thinking that, "In this way we shall be happy." Hari-śauri: Get more money. *Prabhupāda: First of all, paved way, then flyway, then another flyway, then another flyway. In this way. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ ( SB 7.5.31). Hari-śauri: They're always striving for happiness, that's all. They never achieve it, they never get there. Prabhupāda: No. That is called māyā . Just like the animal is running after the mirage, water, but there is no water. Hari-śauri: He simply runs until he dies. Prabhupāda: That's all. This is going on. *Hari-śauri: Dogs on four wheels. (laughs) It was so nice sitting underneath the tree there, chanting. I was thinking this is what we could do forever, twenty*-four hours. No need to do anything else. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: Prospective place, this. Very future prospect. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. We're buying these big properties now. We don't have so many devotees, but we know just even in five years they're going to be packed. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Hari-śauri: Maybe now we don't have so many devotees for all these big places we're buying, but even just in five years or ten years they'll be full up. We'll have to expand more and more. Your idea for fifty percent for books, fifty percent for buildings, it's very wonderful. I remember in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta you said that the book distribution and the establishment of temples should go parallel lines, side by side. Prabhupāda: Going on. Up to date, to my satisfaction, it is going on. Hari-śauri: If you're satisfied, then we know it's going to be successful. Prabhupāda: But they fight amongst themselves, the GBCs. Hari-śauri: Hmm, that's the problem. Prabhupāda: I did not see Harikeśa. Hari-śauri: He was there. Prabhupāda: Oh, he was there? Hari-śauri: Yes. He's been feeling a bit ill today. Prabhupāda: Oh. This is thyme herbs? No. This is the seed. Hari-śauri: Oh, them. They grow it in the garden. The first, what you got, that was grown here. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Those twigs? They were grown here in the garden. Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) Hari-śauri: Would you like anything tonight? A piece of Chyavana Prash ? (Harikeśa enters) Prabhupāda: What is that? Harikeśa: This boy brought this. I wanted to just ask you if this was any good or not. This is nutmeg oil. Hari-śauri: This is the oil I was telling you about. *Harikeśa: And this is All*-Brand . . . Axe Brand Universal Oil, supposed to be for massages or something. Prabhupāda: Chinese? Harikeśa: (indistinct) . . . this is Chinese. Hari-śauri: It's got different . . . says menthol crystal, peppermint oil, eucalyptol oil, menthol salicilate, oil of lavender, chloroform BP, camphor powder and white oil. Prabhupāda: What is for? Harikeśa: Supposed to be for massaging. Hari-śauri: It's supposed to help the muscles. Prabhupāda: And what is this? Harikeśa: It's got the cap on it. Hari-śauri: Nutmeg oil. This is the one I was telling you about. Harikeśa: Take the cap off. Prabhupāda: They're all selling all this? Hari-śauri: No, this is not ours. Harikeśa: Rādhe-Śyāma dāsa brought this. Hari-śauri: It was brought by one of the devotees from . . . Thailand, was it? *Harikeśa: He was in Kuala*-Lumpur. Hari-śauri: He says he bought it from a Buddhist temple, big Buddhist temple. *Prabhupāda: Kuala*-Lumpur? There is a big Buddhist temple I know, I went there. Harikeśa: He said in a letter, he just wrote a little letter to you, that . . . you laid a cornerstone on some temple? About three, four years ago? *Prabhupāda: Kuala*-Lumpur? Yes. Harikeśa: It's finished. It cost a million dollars. And he says this man wants to give it to us. Prabhupāda: Oh, something, that gentleman . . . Harikeśa: It's a rather nice letter. Prabhupāda: Written by him? Harikeśa: No, this boy who was there. I'll bring him tomorrow. Prabhupāda: So we can take it. Yes. This is nice idea he has got. He has spent millions of dollars? Harikeśa: One million on the temple. Prabhupāda: Oh? How he got the money? Harikeśa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Maybe he was rich man. Hari-śauri: This was made in Penang. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Penang. Prabhupāda: Penang? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Penang also I visited. I stayed with one Indian gentleman. His wife made very nice kachorī . Hari-śauri: It doesn't matter wherever you go around the world . . . *Prabhupāda: They asked: "What you want to eat?" "If you can, you make first*-class kachorī ." That is from my childhood. My friends also did it. They'd make the first-class kachorīs in my youthhood. I am fond of kachorī. Kachorī is made first class in Mathurā, Agra and Mathurā. Very, very nice. The kachorī is being made, hundreds of customers waiting. At shops, there was many shops, waiting for purchasing. And as soon as it comes out of the pan, immediately sold. There is no question of waiting. They make so spices. That is India's craftmanship. Nobody will starve. If you have no business, he'll prepare something palatable and people will purchase, all over India. Hari-śauri: There's so many people on the railway station selling. Prabhupāda: There's no question of starvation for want of money. Anywhere sit down and do something palatable, and people will purchase. So your livelihood will go on. Pakorā, kachorī, jalebī , anything. You make some palatable, people are fond of eating some palatable things. That is their hobby. In Allahabad, there was a brāhmaṇa . I had my business, and he was neighborhood, he was living. So in the morning, the husband and wife would go to take bath in the Ganges. They would very nicely take bath, and while coming they will purchase some ingredients and then come home. The husband will perform pūjā , etcetera, and the wife will prepare many nice preparations— barā, pakorī, puchka (Indian snack), this, that. Then he'll take his meals, rest awhile, and in the evening he will sit down—he was sitting just in front of my shop—about four or five o'clock. All the preparations his wife had made whole day, and the small shop. And the university students will come up to night. Ten o'clock, he'll finish. Nothing will remain. Everything will be . . . and he'll make at least ten rupees' profit, minimum. In those days, 1925, in those days ten rupees means nowadays quite . . . at least fifty rupees. So, and living very happily. Living humbly as a brāhmaṇa , he was having his pūjā , going to the Ganges, taking bath, husband and wife, in the morning, and the wife's business is to prepare and his business was to sell. So they'll make at least ten, fifteen rupees' profit daily, very prosperous, living peacefully, husband and wife. There are many such family. The . . . if wife is very good, then his home is very nice. They cannot be unhappy at any circumstances. Dampatyoḥ kalaho nāsti tatra śrīḥ svayam āgataḥ. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. When there is full agreement between husband and wife, cooperation, then the goddess of fortune comes there without application. You haven't got to ask goddess of fortune, "Please come and help me." She'll come automatically. This is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. There are so many things in India culture for becoming happy and advancing towards the goal of life. Now I am appreciating for more and more, seeing the whole world, what is India's culture. Formerly I was thinking, "It is custom. To become faithful wife, this is custom." But when I come outside I see what is wife and what is faithful wife. In India, still, in the village, even there is fight between husband, wife, the wife is faithful. Still. Completely dependent on husband. The husband also, in spite of fighting, he is always careful that the wife does not get any inconvenience. It was the culture; now it is breaking. You can close that. In material world, for peaceful life there must be peaceful condition between the husband and wife. Everyone requires wife, everyone requires husband. (aside) Inside also do. Sex is necessary, so make the condition of sex very peacefully. Why disturbed? Make the condition that there will be . . . it is necessary. As eating is necessary, sleeping is necessary, for ordinary man, so sex is also necessary. So make a condition so that nothing will be disturbed, and in undisturbed condition of mind execute spiritual advancement. This is Indian civilization. Aim is spiritual advancement. And to make condition favorable, there are so many things. So unless we get favorable condition . . . here in the Western countries there is no favorable condition. First of all, they have no idea of spiritual life, the goal of life, neither there is favorable condition. And gradually things are becoming degrading. On my last tour in Chicago I saw. In three weeks she has twice divorced, one lady advertised. You remember it? Hari-śauri: I wasn't there that time. Harikeśa: I remember. Prabhupāda: You were there, yes. Is that life? How they can be happy if this is the condition? (pause) Prabhupāda: So what further advancement? Harikeśa: In reference? Hari-śauri: Tehran. Harikeśa: Oh, your tickets are definitely booked on the nonstop flight. I finally managed to . . . Prabhupāda: . . . take the ticket. Oh, we have got ticket. Harikeśa: The reservation, I mean . . . and if for some reason we can't get on that flight, we have reservations on another flight that arrives at . . . arrives four hours later. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Harikeśa: It changes. It leaves earlier and gets there four hours later. Was lunch all right today? Lunch? Your lunch was all right? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Was lunch all right? Prasādam ? Prabhupāda: The potatoes and karelā , it should be fried. Harikeśa: Yes, it was fried. I fried it with the cover on. Prabhupāda: No, not in the beginning. Fry it, and if it is still hard, then . . . Harikeśa: Then put the cover on. Oh, all right. Prabhupāda: Yes, not from beginning. Harikeśa: Oh, I made a mistake. Prabhupāda: If you cover from the beginning, the water which is already there, they will be coming out. And the idea is the water should be taken away. Then it will be tasteful. Still, it was good. Harikeśa: Should I cook if I still have this fever tomorrow? Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: Right now I have a fever. Prabhupāda: No, don't cook. Harikeśa: So if I have a fever I shouldn't cook for you? It's unhealthy for you, or . . .? Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: It won't bother me so much, but if it's unhealthy for you . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, I have no objection. But if you have got fever, why shall you? There are so many others. They can cook. Harikeśa: I cannot tolerate being sick any more. Prabhupāda: The body means sickness. The body itself is sickness. Harikeśa: In illusion I think I come back here, I get healthy. In illusion I think if I leave India and come here I will get healthy. But I come here, I also get sick. I go there, I also get sick. (laughs) You seem to be much better now. Prabhupāda: Yes, little better. (pause) (devotees leave) *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . thinking of how to utilize the whole land. The situation is very good, good prospect. I want that self*-independent here, as far as possible. But you have got enough materials. With woods you can make cottages. Then land becomes clear, then utilize it. Bhagavān: Cows. Prabhupāda: Cows, so many things. Free from all anxieties, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Life is meant for simply chanting. This should be the motto. But because we have got this body, we have to maintain it. That much. Otherwise, we have no ambition to become a very big man in this material world, enjoy it. This is all false, useless. He'll become a big man, and one day death comes and kicks him out. Just see. So these are all false attempts. It has no meaning. The meaningful life is, so long we live, become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. And tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). That is wanted. Give facility to the people. Here is very nice arrangement. Now make plan how to utilize. You have got enough land. You can utilize for supplying the necessities of life. Bhagavān: Yes. It's a very wonderful place. Prabhupāda: Yes. We can get many wonderful places like this all over the world. But they have not been taught how to utilize them. Bhagavān: I think in one year they have done nicely. They have built a greenhouse and planted all the cultivated land. Prabhupāda: No, they are working hard, there is no doubt about it. Bhagavān: And the temple also, Deity worship and everything. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Things are going nicely. There is no doubt about it. And children should be given that much education—to read and write and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Bhagavān: The devotees are talking how nice it was to sit outside with you and chant and hear you speak tonight. I remember the last time I was in New Vrindavan many years ago, when I first became a devotee. You were sitting outside, giving some lecture, series of lectures on Vyāsadeva and the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I like this life, from my very childhood. And on our roof there were trees, er, plants, flower plants, and . . . my grandmother, she . . . we, all grandchildren used to water it. So downstairs we took water in, what is called? A jhāri ? Bhagavān: Sprinkling can? Prabhupāda: Ah, sprinkling can. We all grandchildren, we were about half a dozen. So we took very much pleasure in watering. But my special tendency was that along with the plants, I, with the bushes, I'll sit down. My tendency. And I'll sit down for hours. I liked that, in my childhood. In my maternal uncle's house also, I was doing that. As soon as I find some bush, I make a sitting place. Bhagavān: It's hard to see how people could not be attracted to such a nice life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: And more and more people are coming. Prabhupāda: They'll come. First of all, this life is not for every man. Most fortunate man. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. Kona. Kona means someone; *it is not for everyone. Kona bhāgyavān . Find out this verse, Nineteenth Chapter, Madhya*-līlā. Bhagavān: (devotees look for verse) Brahmāṇḍa bhramite ? *Prabhupāda: Brahmāṇḍa bhramite. Guru*-kṛṣṇa. Find out. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā pāya. *Hari-śauri: Guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja . Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: "According to their karma , all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service." Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not for everyone. *Hari-śauri: There's a nice purport. Should I do the purport? "When we speak of brahmāṇḍa , we refer to the whole universe, or to the cluster of many millions of universes. In all universes, there are innumerable planets and innumerable living entities upon those planets in the air and in the water. There are millions and trillions of living entities everywhere, and they are engaged by māyā in suffering and enjoying the results of their fruitive activity life after life. This is the position of the materially conditioned living entities. Out of many of these living entities, if one is actually fortunate, he comes in contact with a bona fide spiritual master by Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart, and if one desires something, Kṛṣṇa fulfills one's desire. If the living entity by chance or fortune comes in contact with the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and wishes to associate with that movement, Kṛṣṇa, who is situated in everyone's heart, gives him the chance to meet a bona fide spiritual master. This is called guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāda . Kṛṣṇa is prepared to bestow His mercy upon all living entities, and as soon as a living entity desires the Lord's mercy, the Lord immediately gives him an opportunity to meet a bona fide spiritual master. Such a person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master. He is helped from within by Kṛṣṇa and from without by the spiritual master. Both are prepared to help the sincere living being become free from this material bondage." *"How one can become this fortunate can be seen in the life of Nārada Muni. In his previous life he was born of a maidservant. Although he was not born into a prestigious position, his mother was fortunately engaged in rendering service to some Vaiṣṇavas. When these Vaiṣṇavas were resting during the cāturmāsya period, the boy Nārada took the opportunity to engage in their service. Taking compassion upon the boy, the Vaiṣṇavas offered him the remnants of their food. By serving them and obeying their orders, the boy became the object of sympathy for the Vaiṣṇavas, and, by the Vaiṣṇavas' unknown mercy, he gradually became a pure devotee. In the next life he was Nārada Muni, the most exalted of Vaiṣṇavas and the most important guru and ācārya of Vaiṣṇavas. Following in the footsteps of Nārada Muni, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is rendering service to humanity by giving everyone a chance to come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. If one is fortunate, he becomes intimately related with this movement. Then, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one's life becomes successful. Everyone has dormant kṛṣṇa*-bhakti, love for Kṛṣṇa, and in the association of good devotees that love is revealed. As stated in Caitanya-caritāmṛta :" *"Dormant devotional service to Kṛṣṇa is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , dormant love for Kṛṣṇa is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151)." Prabhupāda: Then? Then? No, it is not finished? Hari-śauri: No, this is finished. Prabhupāda: Next verse? Hari-śauri: "When a person receives the seed of devotional service, he should take care of it by becoming a gardener and sowing the seed in his heart. If he waters the seed gradually by the process of śravaṇa and kīrtana (hearing and chanting), the seed will begin to sprout." *Purport: "To live with devotees or to live in a temple means to associate with the śravaṇa*-kīrtana process. Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution of śravaṇa-kīrtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who engaged in the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity. However, one should not falsely imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura and abandon Deity worship just to try to engage in śravaṇa-kīrtana . This is not possible for neophyte devotees." *"The word guru*-prasāda indicates that the spiritual master is very merciful in bestowing the boon of devotional service upon the disciple. That is the best possible gift the spiritual master has to offer. Those with a background of pious life are eligible to receive life's supreme benefit, and to bestow this benefit, the Supreme Personality of Godhead sends His representative to impart His mercy. Endowed with the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the spiritual master distributes the mercy to those who are elevated and pious. Thus the spiritual master trains his disciples to render devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called gurukṛpā . It is kṛṣṇa-prasāda , Kṛṣṇa's mercy, that He sends a bona fide spiritual master to the deserving disciple. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, one meets the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of the spiritual master, the disciple is fully trained in the devotional service of the Lord." *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja means 'the seed of devotional service.' Everything has an original cause, or seed. For any idea, program, plan or device, there is first of all the contemplation of the plan, and that is called bīja , or the seed. The methods, rules and regulations by which one is perfectly trained in devotional service constitute the bhakti-latā-bīja, or the seed of devotional service. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received from the spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Other seeds are called anyābhilāṣa-bīja, karma-bīja and jñāna-bīja . If one is not fortunate enough to receive the bhakti-latā-bīja from the spiritual master, he instead cultivates the seeds of karma-bīja, jñāna-bīja or political and social or philanthropic bīja . However, bhakti-latā-bīja is different from these other bījas. Bhakti-latā-bīja can be received only through the mercy of the spiritual master. Therefore one has to satisfy the spiritual master to get bhakti-latā-bīja ( yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ )." *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja is the origin of devotional service. Unless one satisfies the spiritual master, he gets the bīja , or root cause, of karma , jñāna and yoga without the benefit of devotional service. However, one who is faithful to his spiritual master gets the bhakti-latā-bīja. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master. After receiving the spiritual master's mercy, one must repeat his instructions, and this is called śravaṇa-kīrtana —hearing and chanting. One who has not properly heard from the spiritual master or who does not follow the regulative principles is not fit for chanting ( kīrtana ). This is explained in Bhagavad-gītā : vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana (BG 2.41). One who has not listened carefully to the instructions of the spiritual master is unfit to chant or preach the cult of devotional service. One has to water the bhakti-latā-bīja after receiving instructions from the spiritual master." I remember in Hawaii, this section here, it says a person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, and you said that Kṛṣṇa gives you the weapon and the spiritual master sharpens it, the weapon of knowledge, and in that way we can cut free from material bondage. Prabhupāda: The classes should be regularly held. Those who are engaged in the field work, then let them work, but woman or others, they should hear in the class. They should attend. Bhagavān: There is regular class for everyone in the afternoon, after prasādam . Prabhupāda: That's nice. ( kīrtana heard from downstairs) What they are saying now? Bhagavān: Downstairs? " Haribol ." People cannot understand how just by chanting enthusiastic kīrtana so many problems can be solved. Prabhupāda: Yes. What they understand, all rascals? Wasting time. Going to the moon planet, going to the Mars planet. Why? What you will gain? Still they are going. Simply spending money. In Bengal it is called ostrādi. Ostrādi , in English? One who places himself as very intelligent leader. What is called in one word? Bhagavān: Presumptuous? Prabhupāda: Presumptuous? Bhagavān: Presumes he's something that he's . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is a very nice word. Hari-śauri: An imposter? Prabhupāda: Imposter is falsely. It is not exactly falsely. Beginning with "p." (Hari-śauri looking in dictionary) Do you find there teacher ? Teachers , other things? Hari-śauri: Teacher? Prabhupāda: Teacher, and other synonyms. Find out the teacher . They have got so many synonyms. Hari-śauri: Teacher: "Educator, instructor, preceptor, master, tutor, coach, schoolmaster, schoolmistress, schoolmarm, pedagogue." Prabhupāda: Pedagogue, yes, this word. Hari-śauri: Pedagogy . . . how do you pronounce this word? Prabhupāda: Pedagogue. Hari-śauri: Yes. Pedagogue. Prabhupāda: This word, now you see what is the pedagogue in dictionary. Pedigree. Pedagogue—pedagogue or predagogue? Hari-śauri: Pedagogue. Here we are. "Pedagogue: schoolmaster, teacher." That's all it gives. "Pedagogy, science of teaching." Bhagavān: "Implying pedagy." Look up pedagy . "Implying pedagy." It says: "Usually derogatory." *Hari-śauri: Oh, "Pedant—one who overrates or parades book*-learning or technical knowledge or insists on strict adherence to formal rules. One always possessed by theory doctrinaire." Prabhupāda: Yes, this word. Hari-śauri: Pedant. Prabhupāda: Pedagogue? Bhagavān: Pedagogue is the first, yes. Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Hari-śauri: P*-e-d-a-g-o-g-u-e. *Prabhupāda: Peda. Peda. P-e-d*-a . *Hari-śauri: Yeah. P*-e-d-a-g-o-g-u-e. Pedagogue. Prabhupāda: Oh. Pedagogue. Not pedi , but peda . Hari-śauri: Pedagogue. Prabhupāda: Pedagogue. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: So they are going on, pedagogue. *Hari-śauri: And the other one is pedant. Pedant, "One who overrates or parades book*-learning." Prabhupāda: Pedantry, there is a word. Our Harikeśa was speaking that if they do not say there is life in Mars, then their whole propaganda will fail. Hari-śauri: Yes, I was saying that this morning. Prabhupāda: This time, if they say that there is no life in the Mars, they'll never get next chance, he said. I think it is meaningful. Bhagavān: It will substantiate our claim. Prabhupāda: No, our claim intelligent. They are loitering. Our claim is that they do not know anything about that. All foolish propaganda. But their position is that unless they say that there is life, then their this false propaganda will no longer run on. We are certain that they cannot go there, neither is it possible to understand what is there. Simply imagination. We do not give any credit. (pause) Hari-śauri: You said you had some plan? For the land here? When we came in, you were saying you had some plan for the land. Prabhupāda: Plan is that we have got woods. Cut the woods, make small cottages, and engage them for growing fruits, flowers, grains, and make the complete arrangement nicely. Water . . . Hari-śauri: Irrigation. Prabhupāda: In this way make it evergreen. Bhagavān: There was a question about the cows, that at what point should the calf be separated from the mother. Because sometimes when the calf is separated, the mother, she cries. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why separation? They should be given chance to drink milk. Bhagavān: But isn't there a point? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhagavān: There is a point when the calf is taken away from the mother? Prabhupāda: No, they should not be taken away. Bhagavān: Shouldn't be. Hari-śauri: I think in all our farms they do that. Bhagavān: I heard in New Vrindavan they took them away very early. Hari-śauri: The problem is that the calves drink so much milk that they become very sick, so they have to separate. Prabhupāda: Therefore they should not be allowed always. Once in a day, that's all. Hari-śauri: Oh. Prabhupāda: Not too much allowed, but once. At least when milking they should be allowed to drink little milk, and that will encourage the mother to deliver more milk. Hari-śauri: Oh. At the same time they're milking the cow, the calf can come. Prabhupāda: Yes. They can bring it, milk. And while milking, the calf may be standing before the mother. Hari-śauri: They do that in India. Prabhupāda: So she will not be sorry. Bhagavān: That's nice. Prabhupāda: Completely separation is not good. And after birth, at least for one week the calf should be allowed. Because after this giving birth, the milk is not fit for human consumption. The calf should not be allowed to eat more, but at the same time the mother must see once, twice. Then it will be all right. Of course, we are born in big, big towns; we do not know. But I know this is the process. In Allahabad I was keeping cow. There was facility. Bhagavān: I don't think our farms are doing like that. In New Vrindavan they do? Hari-śauri: What, letting the calves come? I don't think so. You can write a letter to them. The whole system's so perfect. It's completely satisfying in every respect. Prabhupāda: And if you make others dissatisfied for your pleasure, that is sinful. You should act in such a way that nobody is dissatisfied. Then there is balance. Hari-śauri: Expert management. Prabhupāda: You have got puffed rice? Hari-śauri: They may have some in the kitchen. I can check. They have flat rice. Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: Puffed rice. This Chyavana Prash , it says five to ten grams every morning with milk. Prabhupāda: With milk. Five to ten grams. Hari-śauri: Yes, that's like a spoonful. That's like a heaped spoonful. I think that's about what you're getting there. Prabhupāda: What we take, that is five to ten grams? Hari-śauri: Approximately. Maybe a little more. Prabhupāda: How much milk it is? Hari-śauri: Doesn't say, it just says with milk. So according to taste. Do you like to take . . . Prabhupāda: So in the morning. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: I'll go and find out about this . . . Prabhupāda: Puffed rice. (break) Bhagavān: (background discussion with devotees) Where is your husband? (devotees bring in vegetables) Zucchini? Hari-śauri: This is zucchini? This? Bhagavān: Yes. We should show Prabhupāda each thing that we're doing. (break) Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Everything's grown on the farm, he said. Devotee (1): These are flowers which decorate the vases. They are very tall. They put in the vases every day on the altar, Kṛṣṇa. And this morning . . . you have been there? Taking garlands made out of this. It smells very nice. And that's the carnation. It was the one I gave you yesterday on your walk. It has a very nice scent. Prabhupāda: No, you have got this cucumber? Devotee (1): Yes, there is cucumber. Prabhupāda: So if fresh, why not eat? Hari-śauri: We have fresh cucumber every day. Prabhupāda: But when I take it, it does not appear to be fresh. Devotee (1): These are bulk cucumbers. Devotee (2): This is fresh cucumber from the garden. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Tomorrow. Prabhupāda: The cucumber which is supplied to me, that is not fresh. Devotee (1): It is from the market. We were not aware that they had cucumber in the garden, because I asked . . . Prabhupāda: You are not aware? Why not? Devotee (1): I was not aware. Hari-śauri: He's our supplier. Prabhupāda: At least one cucumber, and this chili, you can make a nice salad. You say that there's no peas? Hari-śauri: There's no peas in the garden. Devotee (1): They are just ready actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They're just ready for picking now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (1): Beans you have had every day from the garden. Hari-śauri: Beans are very stringy. Devotee (1): Grapes. Prabhupāda: Oh, so many fresh things. Devotee (1): From the greenhouse they are, actually. Hari-śauri: What is this? Devotee (1): That is zucchini, only very small. (laughter) We let them get big to feed so many devotees. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Very nice, very fresh. So many things can be done. Hari-śauri: This is zucchini? Devotee (1): This is the same thing. Devotee (2): They call it marrow. Prabhupāda: This called, this is . . . I do not know what you call. It is called komura . It is very nice. Hari-śauri: We used to call them marrows. Zucchinis are small. Devotee (1): Tomato. It's an Italian type of tomato, and there's another one. Prabhupāda: This is apple? Devotee (1): Yes, that's for cooking. Hari-śauri: Cabbage. Devotee (1): Pears. Bhagavān: They're growing chickpeas. Devotee (1): Oh, chickpeas also, yes. Bhagavān: They're not ripe yet. Devotee (1): You can see inside, inside the pod, one chickpea. They have to go yellow on the plant, and then we pick them and then put them in sacks for the winter. Bhagavān: We have a whole field planted of chickpea. They're very expensive here, so it's nice. Prabhupāda: So you have got immediately some pods? Devotee (1): And also you have been taking the fresh coriander, dhaniya . Prabhupāda: Oh, nice. So, this pod? Devotee (1): Peas, beans. Prabhupāda: You have got some? Devotee (1): Yes, plenty, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (2): For tomorrow? Prabhupāda: Bring all them. (laughter) Hari-śauri: He supplies us every day. What's this? Woman devotee: This is lemon spinach. Devotee (1): A type of sour spinach. Tasty. Bhagavān: Tastes like a lemon. Prabhupāda: Yes. (tries it) Very good. Bhagavān: Anything else hidden in here? This is our apple? Devotee (1): Yes. They are our apples from the garden. Woman devotee: Sweet peas. Devotee (1): There's many varieties of flowers for the garlands and the vases, for almost the next two months. Prabhupāda: Grow more, more, all these fruits, flowers. Bhagavān: This is from ours? Woman devotee: Yes. Devotee (1): Rose. We are growing 2,500 . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Go and live happily. This is a . . . Devotee (1): Pear. Devotee (2): It's not yet ripe. Prabhupāda: You have got puffed rice? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So bring some this pod. Devotee (1): Tomorrow. Prabhupāda: I shall, with puffed rice, I shall take this. Hari-śauri: How do you want them cooking? Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll tell you. Let them bring. Hari-śauri: Bring some now? (laughter) Bhagavān: Glories to Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Give Mandākinī these peas. She'll . . . Hari-śauri: Now? Prabhupāda: Yes. She can . . . tomorrow she can utilize it for kachorī . I've asked her to make kachorī . Let them use this. Hari-śauri: They must have only just come ripe just this last week. Prabhupāda: So many things are growing. Puffed rice, you simply make it hot, dry, take it away, and then take some of the peas, put very little ghee and masālā and some peas, fry it nicely. Then put little water and cover it. When it is soft, you can add with it little these green chilis. Hari-śauri: These big ones? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not very much, but little. Hari-śauri: These are not very hot, the big ones. The small ones are the hot ones, but we don't have any of those left. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: And then mix them, or keep them separate? Prabhupāda: No, keep separately. They should be very soft. And the puffed rice, hot. Then mix with little ghee and masālā . Then, I'll take little. Hari-śauri: Jaya . (end) Prabhupāda: . . . any expert in your country who can fry food grains in hot sand. Bhagavān: Like they make puffed rice, I think, like that. I don't think so. They do it by machine. Prabhupāda: Puffed rice? How? What is that machine? Bhagavān: When they make a thatcher, they use some kind of machine. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Must do. Prabhupāda: But we can do it very easily. Sand should be very hot. Then make hot sand; *it is not very difficult. Any fire. And then take the grains in some . . . another pot, and put the hot sand under it and then agitate. And it will putt*-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt , they'll be finished. Bhagavān: Put the hot sand where? Prabhupāda: Sand is being heated in fire, so you put the grains in another pot and put the hot sand there. Hari-śauri: Underneath the pot? Prabhupāda: Why underneath? I said another pot. You are so dull brain. Here is hot sand. I bring in another pot the grains, and the hot sand I pour on it. Hari-śauri: Pour on it, on top of the grains. Oh. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And then agitate and then put the whole thing on a mesh and make it like this, again put the hot sand there. Is it clear? Then you get the puffed*-up grains. That is very good food. Hari-śauri: Devotees make popcorn. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: They make popcorn. Bhagavān: That's another thing. Prabhupāda: Popcorn, they fry it in ghee , hot ghee . Hari-śauri: Not much though, just a little. Prabhupāda: No, I've seen it. They do it. But that is not very digestive. If you make this sand, hot sand . . . Bhagavān: It's light. *Prabhupāda: Very light. So in the morning you can give them this puffed grains, then fruits and milk—very good breakfast. I mean to say all self*-dependent. Yes. We should save time, as much for this purpose, for chanting, discussing grantha . Not for any personal so-called comforts. We can sit down anywhere on the grass here, and whatever available we make our food. This is the idea. Life will be sublime. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām ( BG 18.65). That is real business. Bhagavān: They are spending so much money for entertainment in material life, but no one is becoming enlivened. But this kind of discussion is so fresh. For a show they pay five dollars, to go to one movie for one hour, two hours. *Prabhupāda: That is another artificial agitation of the mind. It has . . . there is no practical benefit. Just see how many varieties of flowers, colorful. Can they make such colorful? "Yes, we're trying to overcome nature. Wait millions of years." And what about not? "Now you sleep." (laughter) These rascals are misleading other rascals. And they are, "Oh, a scientist!" Very misleading civilization. We shall appreciate in every flower the craftsmanship of Kṛṣṇa, how He has done nicely. Unnecessarily puffed up by so*-called advancement of knowledge, misleading themselves and misleading others. Who is that old man comes? Bhagavān: Which one? Prabhupāda: Some old man? Bhagavān: Oh, he's a Life Member from Belgium. Prabhupāda: Oh. He has come from Belgium? In the last German war, the first attempt of attack was on Belgium. And within few hours, Belgium finished, conquered over. (pause) Bhagavān: It's a very nice part of the day. It's warm . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: It's a nice part of the day. It's very comfortable. Prabhupāda: I think this part is better situated than New Vrindavan, eh? What do you think? Hari-śauri: This is a lot nicer. Prabhupāda: New Vrindavan is on the rocks and hills, and this is plain. Therefore situation is better here. That New Orleans is also plain land. You have been there? And Pennsylvania is also. Hari-śauri: Pennsylvania is very good. Prabhupāda: But it doesn't matter. Our purpose will be served anywhere. So try to concentrate in this village organization life. Full of anxieties, city life. The houses already there, if you repair them nicely then it is a very nice place. They're gradually being repaired. Bhagavān: Yes. No one is getting any salary here. They are just working and taking what they . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Why salary? Kṛṣṇa's servant. We are eternal servant. That is the beauty of our institution. We have no hired men. Unless one is sincere, why he'll work? What is the time now? *Bhagavān: Eight*-thirty. *Prabhupāda: (referring to clock) I think it is stopped. Just see how beautifully it is colored. This sense, aesthetic sense. Kṛṣṇa knows how it will become beautiful. Svā*-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (CC Madhya 13.65, purport). Construction—eh?—of the flower. And there is no intelligence. Hari-śauri: Chance. Prabhupāda: So beat them with shoes, and when they protest, "Oh, it is chance, don't mind. It is by chance I am beating." (laughter) Bhagavān: It seems they are struggling so hard for existence they do not have time to contemplate these simple things, working so hard. Prabhupāda: Yes. So show the example that how by simple living and thinking of Kṛṣṇa, one can become perfect and happy. Hari-śauri: People's minds are so much agitated by false desire that they can't appreciate anything. Real beauty they overlook, searching for something else. (pause) *Prabhupāda: My mother used to make puffed rice at home. So there is special rice available for making puffed rice. Either you can prepare at home or you can purchase in the market, special rice. So she was preparing nice puffed rice, very, very nice. In a sand pot. My mother was always engaged in making some food preparation—some pickle, some chutney, and this puffed rice, or something else, something else, something else. Besides cooking for the family, she was being assisted by my sisters. Always palatable foodstuff. So many guests were there, and if son*-in-law would come, they would specially prepare food for him. To receive guests, give them nice food to eat, prepare nice food for the family, this is the Indian pleasure. They are not very much—nowadays a little different—for upkeep of the home, very . . . that, in their own way, they keep it very nicely. Every utensils, very cleansed, they are kept ready for use, some cloth. If you go in a poor man's home, but you'll find everything very neat and clean. Ask these gṛhasthas to keep their home very neat and clean. Are they keeping? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: What are the general program for eating? Bhagavān: For eating? Every morning everyone has a nice glass of yogurt, chickpeas and apple, orange and banana. Prabhupāda: Chickpeas fried? No. Bhagavān: Boiled chickpeas. Prabhupāda: Oh, boiled. Bhagavān: And apple, orange and banana. And in the afternoon they have rice, dāl, cāpāṭi and salad, and in the evening they have a glass of milk and a little bread. Prabhupāda: That's nice. (sound of engine running) What is that machine? Bhagavān: I think it's a truck. Hari-śauri: One of the vans. Prabhupāda: Vans. (child crying outside) "Prabhupāda"? (laughs) *Bhagavān: We brought the Jagannātha Deity here from Paris for Ratha*-yātrā, and He stayed here for eight days and then went back. And when He went back all the gurukula children, they were all crying and running after the truck. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . (laughs) So . . . this is natural affection. Bhagavān: The little boys also, they were crying, little girls. *Prabhupāda: So Ratha*-yātrā was functioned here? Bhagavān: Oh, yes, very big—two hundred devotees here. It was very ecstatic. Nice prasādam and nice procession. When He came, all the cows came up and they were looking. (laughs) Prabhupāda: The villagers joined? Bhagavān: Yes. They were there. Prabhupāda: They are finding something new. *Hari-śauri: The Times of India gave a very good report of New York Ratha*-yātrā. Prabhupāda: You have got it? Hari-śauri: It's in the room. I thought you'd seen it. (leaves to get clipping) Bhagavān: They cannot publish anything bad about us. They try to find, sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: (returns with clipping) Seems they're always carrying little snippets of information about what we're doing. Before there was a report about the restaurants, and here there's two reports about . . . one about the Jagannātha festival in New York and one about the proposed Vedic university in Kurukṣetra. These were on consecutive days. The one about New York, it says: "Washington, July the 19th." That's where it's reported from. It says: "New York saw on Sunday an unusual spectacle of three brightly colored chariots being pulled along the city's prestigious Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, a distance of about five kilometers, by members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa group. The rathas , built in Orissa style with giant wooden wheels, attracted large crowds of spectators all along the route. It was a novel experience for the New Yorkers. Many resident Indians who are not members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement enthusiastically gave a hand in the pulling. The Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees were celebrating the feast of Jagannātha in the traditional Indian way. The police and the city administration readily cooperated. In a city that is coming to be known for its tolerance of diverse cultures, chariot processions promise to be an annual event. While a few citizens booed and some altercations were reported, the spectacle was well received by the New Yorkers. 'I think it is great,' the New York Times quoted a man as saying. The person, who identified himself as a visitor to New York and was not a Hare Kṛṣṇa fan, referring to the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, added, 'They are all happy and dancing, and that's what life's all about.' Later a vegetarian feast was served to the admirers." Prabhupāda: Very good. Hari-śauri: It's very good. There's just a real short one about the university in Kurukṣetra. It says: "Vedic Varsity for Kurukṣetra Soon." "The first Vedic university will come up soon at Kurukṣetra and will be affiliated to V. N. Chakravarty University. The proposed university is being set up by the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, and will cost rupees two crore . Most of the funds will be provided by Mr. Alfred Ford, the nephew of the auto magnate Henry Ford. Mr. Ford, on becoming a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder of ISKCON, changed his name to Ambarīṣa dāsa. The Vedic university will offer courses leading to bhakti-śāstrī and sarvabhauma. " (break) Prabhupāda: . . . new devotees joining? Bhagavān: Yes. The last month we have about five new devotees. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhagavān: Including children, there are about hundred and ninety altogether. Prabhupāda: Hundred and ninety, two hundred. Bhagavān: Almost two hundred. One family has joined yesterday. Prabhupāda: Family? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: Husband, wife and children? Bhagavān: Two children. He's a builder and plumber. Prabhupāda: Oh, you'll get help for construction work. He can teach others also. Live peacefully, happily, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Bhagavān: The garden crew, when they go out in the afternoon, they have kīrtana out to the field with mṛdaṅga and karatālas where they work. Prabhupāda: You have to arrange for little more water. So you can . . . the pump is not in order. You can arrange for that. Bhagavān: Yes. That's not so difficult. Your water supply has been all right? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhagavān: This, in July . . . this is normal weather now, in August and July. But generally in July it has some rain. Prabhupāda: This year . . . Bhagavān: Yes. And it was the hottest weather in a hundred years. Prabhupāda: Now. Bhagavān: It was, in July. Extremely hot. And actually our well was one of the only ones functioning in the whole area, and we were watering the crops and everything. Our corn is very nice, very high, and our tomatoes are very good. The barley harvest was five tons. Prabhupāda: Five times more? Bhagavān: Five tons of barley we got, from our harvest. It was very nice. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhagavān: Did you get some barley flour? Prabhupāda: I don't have any. Hari-śauri: (laughs) We can't make. It's not finely ground enough. We can't make it into cāpāṭis . It's just too coarse. Prabhupāda: You could do one thing. You just smash that and boil with milk. Hari-śauri: You mean a mortar and pestle? Prabhupāda: Smash and boil with milk. Don't put sugar. Then I shall put sugar according to my taste. Hari-śauri: You want that this evening? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: No. Tomorrow morning. Bhagavān: We are the only farm in the whole area that is growing chickpeas. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Bhagavān: The man said he did not think they can grow, but we have a whole field of chickpeas. They'll be coming up ripe for harvest in about three weeks. Prabhupāda: Chickpeas very nutritious. If you simply boil soft, oh, it is very nutritious. A little, so much, is as good as full meal. Next time, if possible, I shall come in June—June, July, August. Bhagavān: Yes, these are nice months, best months. Prabhupāda: It is not difficult. To come to Paris it takes eight or nine hours from Bombay. Hari-śauri: But you might already be in America at that time. (laughs) You're always in America at that time. Prabhupāda: No, this place is very nice. The outside, so pleasing, the outdoors. Bhagavān: I think you are feeling a little better? Prabhupāda: Yes, little. This facility is nowhere in America, outdoors. Hari-śauri: Well, we have one or two places that are just developing, like Miami. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: That's fifteen . . . fifteen acres? Something like that. No, more. Prabhupāda: Miami climate is like this. Hari-śauri: Oh, very nice. They have a mango orchard. Prabhupāda: Oh. Also coconut. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, very good ḍābs there. Detroit was also very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes, Detroit. (break) . . . Mālatī? Bhagavān: Mālatī? She was there. Hari-śauri: All those boys are coming tomorrow or the day after from Germany. Harikeśa was in touch with them. Bhagavān: We have a nice program on saṅkīrtana where at least twice a week they go to a house and give a class at someone's home. Prabhupāda: Where? Bhagavān: Wherever they are. They meet some interested person, and they go and they have a class in their home. Prabhupāda: And he invites friends. Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Bhagavān: And one man, after the devotee was there, the next week he sent two thousand dollars in the mail. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Bhagavān: And then he came to the Paris temple and he gave another thousand dollars. And then two weeks later he sent again two thousand dollars, and then he moved in with his whole family. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . (laughs) Bhagavān: They are here now. He had his own business and everything, very successful. His children are in the gurukula and he is doing saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: His wife is also? Bhagavān: She is the secretary now. Very nice. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom they came? Bhagavān: South of France. Prabhupāda: South of France. Hari-śauri: If we had a big farm in the south it would be very nice. In the south of France the weather is always very good. Yes? Prabhupāda: South of France is near Mediterranean. Marseilles is south? Bhagavān: Marseilles is right on the Mediterranean. We have very big saṅkīrtana there. Prabhupāda: Marseilles? Oh. Bhagavān: Many books distributed. Prabhupāda: How far it is from . . .? Bhagavān: From here? About six hours. Prabhupāda: On the whole, they are appreciating. Bhagavān: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: This man has come means after appreciating. Everything surrendered—money, family, everything. Bhagavān: Of all the different groups in this country, we have the best reputation. They hardly ever write any bad thing about us. Prabhupāda: French people are, I think, cultured than other states. *Bhagavān: They like to read. When they distribute the hard*-cover books door to door, many people always look at the binding, how the book is made, and they like the pictures. Prabhupāda: We have got our own mung dāl ? Bhagavān: Mung dāl ? This is the first year we're growing. We have a large patch. Prabhupāda: Not yet harvested. Bhagavān: Not yet harvested. But the plants are all very healthy, strong. Prabhupāda: So in the morning you can give. We have got other mung dāl ? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Soak it, soak it, and raw mung dāl also. Ginger and this cucumber. *Bhagavān: When we installed the Gaura*-Nitāi Deity last January, many villagers came, and they all came, they were touching the floor. They have never seen such a nice floor, how smooth it was. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Such marble floor they never saw. (break) . . . who has paid you more than five thousand dollars and he has joined, that does not mean that he's a foolish man. He's a businessman. So what about his business? Leased to somebody else? He leased out to somebody else? Bhagavān: He's finished. Prabhupāda: Oh, stopped that business? Bhagavān: Yes. He's full time here. He had plumbing business, so he does all the plumbing here. And he meets all the officials, the police, and they like him. He is older man. He has a very nice way of presenting himself. Hari-śauri: He's been here over a year now. Bhagavān: Several months ago we had a parents' meeting. Because on account of this man Moon, there was much agitation about groups taking young children away. So we had a very nice meeting with prasādam and slides, and one of the parents was saying that, "We want to be angry at you, but the problem is that you are all so nice that we cannot be angry." Prabhupāda: One gentleman has joined, he has paid five thousand dollars. His whole family has joined. Harikeśa: Just now? That's nice. Bhagavān: His wife's the same, too. Harikeśa: Oh? (break) *Bhagavān: I wanted to get Kṛṣṇa Book published while you are here. So I really pushed our printer to work very hard. I told him, "But the thing is, I have no money to pay you right now," because we had just printed Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . He said: "You try to give me five percent down and I'll give you eight months' credit." Prabhupāda: Ācchā . (laughs) Bhagavān: So I didn't have the money because we were fixing up. So one girl joined, and she gave eight thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: And what is the whole bill? *Bhagavān: That was . . . the whole bill was about forty*-five thousand dollars. So that was sufficient for the down payment. Prabhupāda: It is about more than ten percent. He wants five percent. Bhagavān: But I gave him. Prabhupāda: Hah. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . any expert in your country who can fry food grains in hot sand. Bhagavān: Like they make puffed rice, I think, like that. I don't think so. They do it by machine. Prabhupāda: Puffed rice? How? What is that machine? Bhagavān: When they make a thatcher, they use some kind of machine. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Must do. Prabhupāda: But we can do it very easily. Sand should be very hot. Then make hot sand; *it is not very difficult. Any fire. And then take the grains in some . . . another pot, and put the hot sand under it and then agitate. And it will putt*-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt , they'll be finished. Bhagavān: Put the hot sand where? Prabhupāda: Sand is being heated in fire, so you put the grains in another pot and put the hot sand there. Hari-śauri: Underneath the pot? Prabhupāda: Why underneath? I said another pot. You are so dull brain. Here is hot sand. I bring in another pot the grains, and the hot sand I pour on it. Hari-śauri: Pour on it, on top of the grains. Oh. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And then agitate and then put the whole thing on a mesh and make it like this, again put the hot sand there. Is it clear? Then you get the puffed*-up grains. That is very good food. Hari-śauri: Devotees make popcorn. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: They make popcorn. Bhagavān: That's another thing. Prabhupāda: Popcorn, they fry it in ghee , hot ghee . Hari-śauri: Not much though, just a little. Prabhupāda: No, I've seen it. They do it. But that is not very digestive. If you make this sand, hot sand . . . Bhagavān: It's light. *Prabhupāda: Very light. So in the morning you can give them this puffed grains, then fruits and milk—very good breakfast. I mean to say all self*-dependent. Yes. We should save time, as much for this purpose, for chanting, discussing grantha . Not for any personal so-called comforts. We can sit down anywhere on the grass here, and whatever available we make our food. This is the idea. Life will be sublime. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām ( BG 18.65). That is real business. Bhagavān: They are spending so much money for entertainment in material life, but no one is becoming enlivened. But this kind of discussion is so fresh. For a show they pay five dollars, to go to one movie for one hour, two hours. *Prabhupāda: That is another artificial agitation of the mind. It has . . . there is no practical benefit. Just see how many varieties of flowers, colorful. Can they make such colorful? "Yes, we're trying to overcome nature. Wait millions of years." And what about not? "Now you sleep." (laughter) These rascals are misleading other rascals. And they are, "Oh, a scientist!" Very misleading civilization. We shall appreciate in every flower the craftsmanship of Kṛṣṇa, how He has done nicely. Unnecessarily puffed up by so*-called advancement of knowledge, misleading themselves and misleading others. Who is that old man comes? Bhagavān: Which one? Prabhupāda: Some old man? Bhagavān: Oh, he's a Life Member from Belgium. Prabhupāda: Oh. He has come from Belgium? In the last German war, the first attempt of attack was on Belgium. And within few hours, Belgium finished, conquered over. (pause) Bhagavān: It's a very nice part of the day. It's warm . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: It's a nice part of the day. It's very comfortable. Prabhupāda: I think this part is better situated than New Vrindavan, eh? What do you think? Hari-śauri: This is a lot nicer. Prabhupāda: New Vrindavan is on the rocks and hills, and this is plain. Therefore situation is better here. That New Orleans is also plain land. You have been there? And Pennsylvania is also. Hari-śauri: Pennsylvania is very good. Prabhupāda: But it doesn't matter. Our purpose will be served anywhere. So try to concentrate in this village organization life. Full of anxieties, city life. The houses already there, if you repair them nicely then it is a very nice place. They're gradually being repaired. Bhagavān: Yes. No one is getting any salary here. They are just working and taking what they . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Why salary? Kṛṣṇa's servant. We are eternal servant. That is the beauty of our institution. We have no hired men. Unless one is sincere, why he'll work? What is the time now? *Bhagavān: Eight*-thirty. *Prabhupāda: (referring to clock) I think it is stopped. Just see how beautifully it is colored. This sense, aesthetic sense. Kṛṣṇa knows how it will become beautiful. Svā*-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (CC Madhya 13.65, purport). Construction—eh?—of the flower. And there is no intelligence. Hari-śauri: Chance. Prabhupāda: So beat them with shoes, and when they protest, "Oh, it is chance, don't mind. It is by chance I am beating." (laughter) Bhagavān: It seems they are struggling so hard for existence they do not have time to contemplate these simple things, working so hard. Prabhupāda: Yes. So show the example that how by simple living and thinking of Kṛṣṇa, one can become perfect and happy. Hari-śauri: People's minds are so much agitated by false desire that they can't appreciate anything. Real beauty they overlook, searching for something else. (pause) *Prabhupāda: My mother used to make puffed rice at home. So there is special rice available for making puffed rice. Either you can prepare at home or you can purchase in the market, special rice. So she was preparing nice puffed rice, very, very nice. In a sand pot. My mother was always engaged in making some food preparation—some pickle, some chutney, and this puffed rice, or something else, something else, something else. Besides cooking for the family, she was being assisted by my sisters. Always palatable foodstuff. So many guests were there, and if son*-in-law would come, they would specially prepare food for him. To receive guests, give them nice food to eat, prepare nice food for the family, this is the Indian pleasure. They are not very much—nowadays a little different—for upkeep of the home, very . . . that, in their own way, they keep it very nicely. Every utensils, very cleansed, they are kept ready for use, some cloth. If you go in a poor man's home, but you'll find everything very neat and clean. Ask these gṛhasthas to keep their home very neat and clean. Are they keeping? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: What are the general program for eating? Bhagavān: For eating? Every morning everyone has a nice glass of yogurt, chickpeas and apple, orange and banana. Prabhupāda: Chickpeas fried? No. Bhagavān: Boiled chickpeas. Prabhupāda: Oh, boiled. Bhagavān: And apple, orange and banana. And in the afternoon they have rice, dāl, cāpāṭi and salad, and in the evening they have a glass of milk and a little bread. Prabhupāda: That's nice. (sound of engine running) What is that machine? Bhagavān: I think it's a truck. Hari-śauri: One of the vans. Prabhupāda: Vans. (child crying outside) "Prabhupāda"? (laughs) *Bhagavān: We brought the Jagannātha Deity here from Paris for Ratha*-yātrā, and He stayed here for eight days and then went back. And when He went back all the gurukula children, they were all crying and running after the truck. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . (laughs) So . . . this is natural affection. Bhagavān: The little boys also, they were crying, little girls. *Prabhupāda: So Ratha*-yātrā was functioned here? Bhagavān: Oh, yes, very big—two hundred devotees here. It was very ecstatic. Nice prasādam and nice procession. When He came, all the cows came up and they were looking. (laughs) Prabhupāda: The villagers joined? Bhagavān: Yes. They were there. Prabhupāda: They are finding something new. *Hari-śauri: The Times of India gave a very good report of New York Ratha*-yātrā. Prabhupāda: You have got it? Hari-śauri: It's in the room. I thought you'd seen it. (leaves to get clipping) Bhagavān: They cannot publish anything bad about us. They try to find, sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: (returns with clipping) Seems they're always carrying little snippets of information about what we're doing. Before there was a report about the restaurants, and here there's two reports about . . . one about the Jagannātha festival in New York and one about the proposed Vedic university in Kurukṣetra. These were on consecutive days. The one about New York, it says: "Washington, July the 19th." That's where it's reported from. It says: "New York saw on Sunday an unusual spectacle of three brightly colored chariots being pulled along the city's prestigious Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, a distance of about five kilometers, by members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa group. The rathas , built in Orissa style with giant wooden wheels, attracted large crowds of spectators all along the route. It was a novel experience for the New Yorkers. Many resident Indians who are not members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement enthusiastically gave a hand in the pulling. The Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees were celebrating the feast of Jagannātha in the traditional Indian way. The police and the city administration readily cooperated. In a city that is coming to be known for its tolerance of diverse cultures, chariot processions promise to be an annual event. While a few citizens booed and some altercations were reported, the spectacle was well received by the New Yorkers. 'I think it is great,' the New York Times quoted a man as saying. The person, who identified himself as a visitor to New York and was not a Hare Kṛṣṇa fan, referring to the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, added, 'They are all happy and dancing, and that's what life's all about.' Later a vegetarian feast was served to the admirers." Prabhupāda: Very good. Hari-śauri: It's very good. There's just a real short one about the university in Kurukṣetra. It says: "Vedic Varsity for Kurukṣetra Soon." "The first Vedic university will come up soon at Kurukṣetra and will be affiliated to V. N. Chakravarty University. The proposed university is being set up by the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, and will cost rupees two crore . Most of the funds will be provided by Mr. Alfred Ford, the nephew of the auto magnate Henry Ford. Mr. Ford, on becoming a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder of ISKCON, changed his name to Ambarīṣa dāsa. The Vedic university will offer courses leading to bhakti-śāstrī and sarvabhauma. " (break) Prabhupāda: . . . new devotees joining? Bhagavān: Yes. The last month we have about five new devotees. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhagavān: Including children, there are about hundred and ninety altogether. Prabhupāda: Hundred and ninety, two hundred. Bhagavān: Almost two hundred. One family has joined yesterday. Prabhupāda: Family? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: Husband, wife and children? Bhagavān: Two children. He's a builder and plumber. Prabhupāda: Oh, you'll get help for construction work. He can teach others also. Live peacefully, happily, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Bhagavān: The garden crew, when they go out in the afternoon, they have kīrtana out to the field with mṛdaṅga and karatālas where they work. Prabhupāda: You have to arrange for little more water. So you can . . . the pump is not in order. You can arrange for that. Bhagavān: Yes. That's not so difficult. Your water supply has been all right? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhagavān: This, in July . . . this is normal weather now, in August and July. But generally in July it has some rain. Prabhupāda: This year . . . Bhagavān: Yes. And it was the hottest weather in a hundred years. Prabhupāda: Now. Bhagavān: It was, in July. Extremely hot. And actually our well was one of the only ones functioning in the whole area, and we were watering the crops and everything. Our corn is very nice, very high, and our tomatoes are very good. The barley harvest was five tons. Prabhupāda: Five times more? Bhagavān: Five tons of barley we got, from our harvest. It was very nice. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhagavān: Did you get some barley flour? Prabhupāda: I don't have any. Hari-śauri: (laughs) We can't make. It's not finely ground enough. We can't make it into cāpāṭis . It's just too coarse. Prabhupāda: You could do one thing. You just smash that and boil with milk. Hari-śauri: You mean a mortar and pestle? Prabhupāda: Smash and boil with milk. Don't put sugar. Then I shall put sugar according to my taste. Hari-śauri: You want that this evening? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: No. Tomorrow morning. Bhagavān: We are the only farm in the whole area that is growing chickpeas. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Bhagavān: The man said he did not think they can grow, but we have a whole field of chickpeas. They'll be coming up ripe for harvest in about three weeks. Prabhupāda: Chickpeas very nutritious. If you simply boil soft, oh, it is very nutritious. A little, so much, is as good as full meal. Next time, if possible, I shall come in June—June, July, August. Bhagavān: Yes, these are nice months, best months. Prabhupāda: It is not difficult. To come to Paris it takes eight or nine hours from Bombay. Hari-śauri: But you might already be in America at that time. (laughs) You're always in America at that time. Prabhupāda: No, this place is very nice. The outside, so pleasing, the outdoors. Bhagavān: I think you are feeling a little better? Prabhupāda: Yes, little. This facility is nowhere in America, outdoors. Hari-śauri: Well, we have one or two places that are just developing, like Miami. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: That's fifteen . . . fifteen acres? Something like that. No, more. Prabhupāda: Miami climate is like this. Hari-śauri: Oh, very nice. They have a mango orchard. Prabhupāda: Oh. Also coconut. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, very good ḍābs there. Detroit was also very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes, Detroit. (break) . . . Mālatī? Bhagavān: Mālatī? She was there. Hari-śauri: All those boys are coming tomorrow or the day after from Germany. Harikeśa was in touch with them. Bhagavān: We have a nice program on saṅkīrtana where at least twice a week they go to a house and give a class at someone's home. Prabhupāda: Where? Bhagavān: Wherever they are. They meet some interested person, and they go and they have a class in their home. Prabhupāda: And he invites friends. Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Bhagavān: And one man, after the devotee was there, the next week he sent two thousand dollars in the mail. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Bhagavān: And then he came to the Paris temple and he gave another thousand dollars. And then two weeks later he sent again two thousand dollars, and then he moved in with his whole family. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . (laughs) Bhagavān: They are here now. He had his own business and everything, very successful. His children are in the gurukula and he is doing saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: His wife is also? Bhagavān: She is the secretary now. Very nice. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom they came? Bhagavān: South of France. Prabhupāda: South of France. Hari-śauri: If we had a big farm in the south it would be very nice. In the south of France the weather is always very good. Yes? Prabhupāda: South of France is near Mediterranean. Marseilles is south? Bhagavān: Marseilles is right on the Mediterranean. We have very big saṅkīrtana there. Prabhupāda: Marseilles? Oh. Bhagavān: Many books distributed. Prabhupāda: How far it is from . . .? Bhagavān: From here? About six hours. Prabhupāda: On the whole, they are appreciating. Bhagavān: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: This man has come means after appreciating. Everything surrendered—money, family, everything. Bhagavān: Of all the different groups in this country, we have the best reputation. They hardly ever write any bad thing about us. Prabhupāda: French people are, I think, cultured than other states. *Bhagavān: They like to read. When they distribute the hard*-cover books door to door, many people always look at the binding, how the book is made, and they like the pictures. Prabhupāda: We have got our own mung dāl ? Bhagavān: Mung dāl ? This is the first year we're growing. We have a large patch. Prabhupāda: Not yet harvested. Bhagavān: Not yet harvested. But the plants are all very healthy, strong. Prabhupāda: So in the morning you can give. We have got other mung dāl ? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Soak it, soak it, and raw mung dāl also. Ginger and this cucumber. *Bhagavān: When we installed the Gaura*-Nitāi Deity last January, many villagers came, and they all came, they were touching the floor. They have never seen such a nice floor, how smooth it was. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Such marble floor they never saw. (break) . . . who has paid you more than five thousand dollars and he has joined, that does not mean that he's a foolish man. He's a businessman. So what about his business? Leased to somebody else? He leased out to somebody else? Bhagavān: He's finished. Prabhupāda: Oh, stopped that business? Bhagavān: Yes. He's full time here. He had plumbing business, so he does all the plumbing here. And he meets all the officials, the police, and they like him. He is older man. He has a very nice way of presenting himself. Hari-śauri: He's been here over a year now. Bhagavān: Several months ago we had a parents' meeting. Because on account of this man Moon, there was much agitation about groups taking young children away. So we had a very nice meeting with prasādam and slides, and one of the parents was saying that, "We want to be angry at you, but the problem is that you are all so nice that we cannot be angry." Prabhupāda: One gentleman has joined, he has paid five thousand dollars. His whole family has joined. Harikeśa: Just now? That's nice. Bhagavān: His wife's the same, too. Harikeśa: Oh? (break) *Bhagavān: I wanted to get Kṛṣṇa Book published while you are here. So I really pushed our printer to work very hard. I told him, "But the thing is, I have no money to pay you right now," because we had just printed Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . He said: "You try to give me five percent down and I'll give you eight months' credit." Prabhupāda: Ācchā . (laughs) Bhagavān: So I didn't have the money because we were fixing up. So one girl joined, and she gave eight thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: And what is the whole bill? *Bhagavān: That was . . . the whole bill was about forty*-five thousand dollars. So that was sufficient for the down payment. Prabhupāda: It is about more than ten percent. He wants five percent. Bhagavān: But I gave him. Prabhupāda: Hah. (end) Prabhupāda: So what happened to the tickets? Harikeśa: The tickets are being locked up in the safe right now. They're going to . . . they're going to bring the tickets tomorrow to this city called Tours, which is very nearby. They have an Air France office, and we can have it converted there. So everything's all right for Saturday. Prabhupāda: So we shall go by the same plane? Harikeśa: Yes, everybody goes in the same plane. Prabhupāda: That's all right. (devotees offer obeisances and leave) Jayatīrtha: Jaya . (break) Hari-śauri: This is the first pamphlet that you ever printed? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: I mean in the West? Prabhupāda: No, before coming here. Hari-śauri: Oh, and then you brought it with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: Says: " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , India's message of peace and good will. Sixty volumes of elaborate English version by Tridandi Goswami A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. Carried by the Scindia Steam Navigation Company Ltd., Bombay, all over the world for scientific knowledge of God." Then it says: "The sufferings of the entire human society can at once be brought under control simply by individual practice of bhakti-yoga , a simple and easy process of chanting the holy name of God. Every country, every nation and every community throughout the world has some conception of the holy name of God, and as such either the Hindus or the Muhammadans or the Christians, everyone can easily chant the holy name of God in a meditative mood, and that will bring about the required peace and good will in the present problematic human society. Any inquiry in this connection will be gladly answered by Śrī Swamiji. The Hindus generally chant the holy name of God in sixteen chain of transcendental sound composed of thirty-two alphabets as Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. The Vedic literatures like the Upaniṣads and the Purāṇas do recommend chanting of the above-mentioned sixteen holy names at a stretch, and Lord Śrī Caitanya, whose cult of chanting the holy name of God gave special importance on these transcendental sounds. In this age of Kali, or the age of hate, hypocrisy, corruption and quarrel, the only remedial measure is that every man should chant the holy name of the Lord, both individually and collectively." *"The glories of the holy name have been described by Śrī Caitanya in His eight verses of Sikṣāṣṭaka , which run as follows: 1) Glory to the Śrī Kṛṣṇa saṅkīrtana , which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years together, and thus the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death, is extinguished. Such saṅkīrtana movement is the prime benediction for the humanity at large because it spreads rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of transcendental knowledge, it increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it helps to have a taste of the full nectarine for which always anxious we are. 2) O my Lord, Your holy name can render all benediction upon the living being, and therefore You have hundreds and millions of names, like Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, etc. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental potencies, and there is no hard*-and-fast rules for chanting these holy names. O my Lord, You have so kindly made easy approach to You by Your holy names, but unfortunate as I am, I have no attraction for them. 3) One can chant the holy names of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking himself as lower than the straw in the streets, tolerant more than the tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and being ready to offer all kinds of respects to others. 4) O almighty Lord, I have no desire for accumulating wealth, nor I have any desire to enjoy beautiful women, neither I want any number of followers of mine. What I want only is that I may have Your causeless devotional service in my life, birth after birth. 5) O the son of Mahārāja Nanda, I am Your eternal servitor, and although I am so, somehow or another I have fallen in the ocean of birth and death. Please therefore pick me up from the ocean of death and fix me up as one of the atoms of Your lotus feet. 6) O my Lord, when shall my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing incessantly by chanting Your holy name, and when all the holes of hairs on my body will have eruptions by the recitation of Your name? 7) O Govinda, feeling Your separation I am considering a moment as twelve years or more than that, and tears flowing down my cheeks like the torrents of rain. I am feeling all vacant in the world without Your presence. 8) I do not know anyone except Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He shall remain as such even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or He may make me broken-hearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything, but He is always my worshipful Lord, unconditionally." *"Chanting of the holy name of God is recommended for everyone, both for the mass of people and the class of people. Those who are scholars, philosophers, scientists, religionists and educated may read the English version of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami with particular attention to the purports appended with each and every verse. They have appreciated the publication as follows: 'At a time when not only the people of India but those of the West need the chastening quality of love and truth in a corrupting atmosphere of hate and hypocrisy, a work like this will have uplifting and corrective influence. What is God? He is truth, He is Love. Even an atheist must accept the supremacy of these qualities, and how much they are needed by the people of the world who have been taught to deny God, and these qualities do not require much emphasis. The author has attempted a tremendous task, the perusal will give us in the sample measure a knowledge of the original. The essence of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the exposition of the Absolute Truth. We would recommend this book.' " Then another one. " 'The editor's vast and deep study of . . ." Prabhupāda: Whose? *Hari-śauri: It doesn't give who is speaking, just the quotes. " 'The editor's vast and deep study of the subject and critical insight are reflected in these notes. We have no doubt that with the publication of these volumes of the rightful interpretations of the Bhāgavatam , which has been the gift of Śrī Caitanya and His Gosvāmī followers, has now been available to the English*-knowing world for the first time. The elaborate method is very helpful to the ardent student of Bhāgavatam , who lack in Sanskrit language. It is admitted in all hands that Bhāgavatam is the most difficult text amongst the Purāṇas . The author richly deserves the gratitude of the devotees for his pious learned labor of love.' " And another one: " 'These volumes speak very highly of Swāmījī's scholarship, and especially of his love of cultural pursuits when we look into the enormous labor of sacrifice in producing them single-handed, and that too at a ripe old age of sixty-eight. We honestly pray to the Almighty that He may spare Swāmījī for all the years he may require to finish the magnum opus of sixty volumes and earn the love and gratitude of his fellow men in pursuit of divine love and grace, nay of the entire humanity. You have done a first-class work, and you deserve the hearty commendation of every Indian, every Hindu. Your deep and penetrating study of the subject and your philosophic insight are reflected in this book.' " etcetera, etcetera. That's the whole pamphlet. Prabhupāda: Complete? Hari-śauri: Yes. You used to give this pamphlet when you first came? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: There's a very nice picture. Prabhupāda: Oh. Before coming here. *Hari-śauri: So you would be sixty*-nine then? *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-nine or seventy. (pause) Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, this picture is nice. Hari-śauri: Taken in Germany, I think. Prabhupāda: Who is behind? Hari-śauri: There's, er, this is Haṁsadūta, Vedavyāsa, and then some of the devotees, saṅkīrtana devotees. You were making a joke. (laughs) (break) (during massage) But you were preaching before that, in India, though. Prabhupāda: Not very much. Oh, yes, that Back to Godhead. Hari-śauri: In Vṛndāvana you were just translating? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: But the library party said that everywhere in Delhi they went, they found that you had already placed your three volumes of Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Yes. In American also. The Congress Library purchased nineteen sets. Hari-śauri: Which library? Prabhupāda: Congress Library. Hari-śauri: Oh, Congress. The one in Washington? The Library of Congress? Prabhupāda: Or there is a branch in India. Hari-śauri: Oh. That is where they have your original Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Hari-śauri: The first copy, they have it in Washington there. Prabhupāda: American government is good organization. (pause) Prabhupāda: From 1954 to '66 I struggled very hard. Alone. Hari-śauri: Twelve years. Prabhupāda: Yes. Twelve years means one yuga . Hari-śauri: One . . . Prabhupāda: Roughly one yuga . And big yuga , another. Hari-śauri: One yuga ? Prabhupāda: Yes. In the ordinary sense. Hari-śauri: Oh, the term is used differently? It can be used in different ways? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: We always think of one yuga as being like Kali*-yuga, or . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a big yuga , this is small yuga . Hari-śauri: It's very fortunate for us that you were so determined. (long pause) Prabhupāda: They have got so many cars. Hari-śauri: Here? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Actually, I think most of our centers have got many, many vans and cars. Prabhupāda: That means they are rich. Hari-śauri: Just like in India they used to measure wealth by how many cows, (laughs) in the West they measure wealth by how many cars. Prabhupāda: And we have both. Cows and cars, both. Hari-śauri: Yes. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So the devotees like this evening class? Hari-śauri: They like . . .? Prabhupāda: Evening class. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, it's a very enlivening program. In the evening it's very nice out of doors. It's warm from the day. No one falls asleep, except for the children, and that's very good because then they're quiet. Prabhupāda: Small children, they also clap . . . Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . and dance on the lap of the mother. They are smiling. Fortunate children, from the birth, associating with devotees. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Nowadays cheating is a good qualification, huh? Hari-śauri: Yes. It's their only qualification. Prabhupāda: If I cheat somebody and get some money, you are very expert. *Hari-śauri: Top*-class businessman. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: First*-class scientist. And the best politician. Just like in America, once they'd found Nixon was cheating, now they're investigating one man after another, and every one, they're finding all the same. Prabhupāda: America, cheating is a policy. How a real estate man, lawyer, they're simply planning how to cheat. Hari-śauri: Hmm. The lawyers are the worst, because they know the law. So they know how to cheat in such a way that they can stay within the law. They said Ambarīṣa's lawyer cheated us out of so many things when we got that Detroit property. (end) Prabhupāda: So what happened to the tickets? Harikeśa: The tickets are being locked up in the safe right now. They're going to . . . they're going to bring the tickets tomorrow to this city called Tours, which is very nearby. They have an Air France office, and we can have it converted there. So everything's all right for Saturday. Prabhupāda: So we shall go by the same plane? Harikeśa: Yes, everybody goes in the same plane. Prabhupāda: That's all right. (devotees offer obeisances and leave) Jayatīrtha: Jaya . (break) Hari-śauri: This is the first pamphlet that you ever printed? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: I mean in the West? Prabhupāda: No, before coming here. Hari-śauri: Oh, and then you brought it with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: Says: " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , India's message of peace and good will. Sixty volumes of elaborate English version by Tridandi Goswami A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. Carried by the Scindia Steam Navigation Company Ltd., Bombay, all over the world for scientific knowledge of God." Then it says: "The sufferings of the entire human society can at once be brought under control simply by individual practice of bhakti-yoga , a simple and easy process of chanting the holy name of God. Every country, every nation and every community throughout the world has some conception of the holy name of God, and as such either the Hindus or the Muhammadans or the Christians, everyone can easily chant the holy name of God in a meditative mood, and that will bring about the required peace and good will in the present problematic human society. Any inquiry in this connection will be gladly answered by Śrī Swamiji. The Hindus generally chant the holy name of God in sixteen chain of transcendental sound composed of thirty-two alphabets as Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. The Vedic literatures like the Upaniṣads and the Purāṇas do recommend chanting of the above-mentioned sixteen holy names at a stretch, and Lord Śrī Caitanya, whose cult of chanting the holy name of God gave special importance on these transcendental sounds. In this age of Kali, or the age of hate, hypocrisy, corruption and quarrel, the only remedial measure is that every man should chant the holy name of the Lord, both individually and collectively." *"The glories of the holy name have been described by Śrī Caitanya in His eight verses of Sikṣāṣṭaka , which run as follows: 1) Glory to the Śrī Kṛṣṇa saṅkīrtana , which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years together, and thus the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death, is extinguished. Such saṅkīrtana movement is the prime benediction for the humanity at large because it spreads rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of transcendental knowledge, it increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it helps to have a taste of the full nectarine for which always anxious we are. 2) O my Lord, Your holy name can render all benediction upon the living being, and therefore You have hundreds and millions of names, like Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, etc. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental potencies, and there is no hard*-and-fast rules for chanting these holy names. O my Lord, You have so kindly made easy approach to You by Your holy names, but unfortunate as I am, I have no attraction for them. 3) One can chant the holy names of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking himself as lower than the straw in the streets, tolerant more than the tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and being ready to offer all kinds of respects to others. 4) O almighty Lord, I have no desire for accumulating wealth, nor I have any desire to enjoy beautiful women, neither I want any number of followers of mine. What I want only is that I may have Your causeless devotional service in my life, birth after birth. 5) O the son of Mahārāja Nanda, I am Your eternal servitor, and although I am so, somehow or another I have fallen in the ocean of birth and death. Please therefore pick me up from the ocean of death and fix me up as one of the atoms of Your lotus feet. 6) O my Lord, when shall my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing incessantly by chanting Your holy name, and when all the holes of hairs on my body will have eruptions by the recitation of Your name? 7) O Govinda, feeling Your separation I am considering a moment as twelve years or more than that, and tears flowing down my cheeks like the torrents of rain. I am feeling all vacant in the world without Your presence. 8) I do not know anyone except Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He shall remain as such even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or He may make me broken-hearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything, but He is always my worshipful Lord, unconditionally." *"Chanting of the holy name of God is recommended for everyone, both for the mass of people and the class of people. Those who are scholars, philosophers, scientists, religionists and educated may read the English version of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami with particular attention to the purports appended with each and every verse. They have appreciated the publication as follows: 'At a time when not only the people of India but those of the West need the chastening quality of love and truth in a corrupting atmosphere of hate and hypocrisy, a work like this will have uplifting and corrective influence. What is God? He is truth, He is Love. Even an atheist must accept the supremacy of these qualities, and how much they are needed by the people of the world who have been taught to deny God, and these qualities do not require much emphasis. The author has attempted a tremendous task, the perusal will give us in the sample measure a knowledge of the original. The essence of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the exposition of the Absolute Truth. We would recommend this book.' " Then another one. " 'The editor's vast and deep study of . . ." Prabhupāda: Whose? *Hari-śauri: It doesn't give who is speaking, just the quotes. " 'The editor's vast and deep study of the subject and critical insight are reflected in these notes. We have no doubt that with the publication of these volumes of the rightful interpretations of the Bhāgavatam , which has been the gift of Śrī Caitanya and His Gosvāmī followers, has now been available to the English*-knowing world for the first time. The elaborate method is very helpful to the ardent student of Bhāgavatam , who lack in Sanskrit language. It is admitted in all hands that Bhāgavatam is the most difficult text amongst the Purāṇas . The author richly deserves the gratitude of the devotees for his pious learned labor of love.' " And another one: " 'These volumes speak very highly of Swāmījī's scholarship, and especially of his love of cultural pursuits when we look into the enormous labor of sacrifice in producing them single-handed, and that too at a ripe old age of sixty-eight. We honestly pray to the Almighty that He may spare Swāmījī for all the years he may require to finish the magnum opus of sixty volumes and earn the love and gratitude of his fellow men in pursuit of divine love and grace, nay of the entire humanity. You have done a first-class work, and you deserve the hearty commendation of every Indian, every Hindu. Your deep and penetrating study of the subject and your philosophic insight are reflected in this book.' " etcetera, etcetera. That's the whole pamphlet. Prabhupāda: Complete? Hari-śauri: Yes. You used to give this pamphlet when you first came? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: There's a very nice picture. Prabhupāda: Oh. Before coming here. *Hari-śauri: So you would be sixty*-nine then? *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-nine or seventy. (pause) Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, this picture is nice. Hari-śauri: Taken in Germany, I think. Prabhupāda: Who is behind? Hari-śauri: There's, er, this is Haṁsadūta, Vedavyāsa, and then some of the devotees, saṅkīrtana devotees. You were making a joke. (laughs) (break) (during massage) But you were preaching before that, in India, though. Prabhupāda: Not very much. Oh, yes, that Back to Godhead. Hari-śauri: In Vṛndāvana you were just translating? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: But the library party said that everywhere in Delhi they went, they found that you had already placed your three volumes of Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Yes. In American also. The Congress Library purchased nineteen sets. Hari-śauri: Which library? Prabhupāda: Congress Library. Hari-śauri: Oh, Congress. The one in Washington? The Library of Congress? Prabhupāda: Or there is a branch in India. Hari-śauri: Oh. That is where they have your original Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Hari-śauri: The first copy, they have it in Washington there. Prabhupāda: American government is good organization. (pause) Prabhupāda: From 1954 to '66 I struggled very hard. Alone. Hari-śauri: Twelve years. Prabhupāda: Yes. Twelve years means one yuga . Hari-śauri: One . . . Prabhupāda: Roughly one yuga . And big yuga , another. Hari-śauri: One yuga ? Prabhupāda: Yes. In the ordinary sense. Hari-śauri: Oh, the term is used differently? It can be used in different ways? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: We always think of one yuga as being like Kali*-yuga, or . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a big yuga , this is small yuga . Hari-śauri: It's very fortunate for us that you were so determined. (long pause) Prabhupāda: They have got so many cars. Hari-śauri: Here? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Actually, I think most of our centers have got many, many vans and cars. Prabhupāda: That means they are rich. Hari-śauri: Just like in India they used to measure wealth by how many cows, (laughs) in the West they measure wealth by how many cars. Prabhupāda: And we have both. Cows and cars, both. Hari-śauri: Yes. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So the devotees like this evening class? Hari-śauri: They like . . .? Prabhupāda: Evening class. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, it's a very enlivening program. In the evening it's very nice out of doors. It's warm from the day. No one falls asleep, except for the children, and that's very good because then they're quiet. Prabhupāda: Small children, they also clap . . . Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . and dance on the lap of the mother. They are smiling. Fortunate children, from the birth, associating with devotees. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Nowadays cheating is a good qualification, huh? Hari-śauri: Yes. It's their only qualification. Prabhupāda: If I cheat somebody and get some money, you are very expert. *Hari-śauri: Top*-class businessman. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: First*-class scientist. And the best politician. Just like in America, once they'd found Nixon was cheating, now they're investigating one man after another, and every one, they're finding all the same. Prabhupāda: America, cheating is a policy. How a real estate man, lawyer, they're simply planning how to cheat. Hari-śauri: Hmm. The lawyers are the worst, because they know the law. So they know how to cheat in such a way that they can stay within the law. They said Ambarīṣa's lawyer cheated us out of so many things when we got that Detroit property. (end) (Conversation with Professor Francois Chenique) Prabhupāda: How are you? Hari-śauri: No, this is not him. This is a devotee. Yogeśvara: Professor's upstairs putting on a dhotī . He brought his daughter. Prabhupāda: Oh? *Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique teaches a course in Bhagavad*-gītā at the University, and he is also doing translations of Śaṅkarācārya and teaches for the Federation of yoga . He considers himself a Christian Advaitist. (break) . . . some questions regarding the publications in French. For example, on the front of Back to Godhead magazine, in the English edition and other language editions, they have kept the phrase "Godhead is light, darkness is nescience. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience." Now in French it is difficult to translate that. There is no word Godhead . And if you say "God is light," in French it sounds very impersonalist. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yogeśvara: In French, Dieu est lumiere , "God is light." Many groups say like that. We use the word Godhead, and that distinguishes us from the other groups. Now, is the phrase very important, and do you want us to keep it on the front of the magazine? It should be there. Prabhupāda: There is little difference between "God" and "Godhead." Yogeśvara: So then we will have to try to find . . . Prabhupāda: Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ. Īśvara, more or less everyone, but īśvaraḥ paramaḥ , that is Godhead. The Māyāvādīs, they do not distinguish between one īśvara to another īśvara . That may be on the ordinary level, but there is parama īśvara. Yogeśvara: One possibility would be to say, "God the Supreme Person is light." That we can translate. Prabhupāda: God means Supreme Person. But these advaitavādī , Māyāvādīs, they have made God everyone. God means Supreme Person, that is the dictionary word. "Supreme Being." That is the dictionary meaning. God does not mean ordinary, but they have made ordinary, anyone God: "I am God, you are God, he is God." Then what is meaning of God? Yogeśvara: Therefore we say Godhead . Prabhupāda: Yes. Head man. There are many men; He is head man. Godhead word is also there in the dictionary. You find out. Yogeśvara: "Godhead—being God or a God, divine nature, Deity, the Godhead, God." The word is there, but the definition they've given is not very . . . Prabhupāda: They do not know. (laughs) They do not know what is God, what is Godhead. They think all these are fictitious. Throughout the whole world they do not know what is God. Simply they know the word, that's all. What it means they do not know. That we are giving. Here is God, Godhead. Nobody knows, nobody cares to know. That is nescience. They think it is an idea, that's all. Actually there is God, there is kingdom of God, one can go and speak with Him, dance with Him. They cannot believe there is a . . . it is beyond their poor fund of knowledge. Therefore they do not accept Kṛṣṇa as God. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ ( BG 9.11). God is the Supreme Person, Supreme Being. Actually there is place where God lives. They do not know. This is the first time, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are giving these ideas; otherwise, who knows it? Nobody knows it. The Christian or Muhammadan is . . . nobody knows. And religion means to accept God as the Supreme Person. They do not know God. Then what is meaning of religion? Religion means to accept a Supreme Person as the supreme controller. That is religion. How the Supreme Person is working in manufacturing this flower, let the scientists explain. But there is no brain? Just nicely painted, symmetrically, each flower of the same class, another class, another class, another class. (guests enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yogeśvara: This is Professor Francois Chenique and his daughter. They drove from Paris this morning to see you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. You can come forward. I have read your review of our book. It is very nice. (Bhūgarbha translates from this point onward) Prabhupāda: Very nice. Your study about this tradition, Indian tradition, I think he has mentioned. Indian tradition, the whole Vedic literature . . . he understands English? Yogeśvara: Yes, but I should translate. He's asked me to translate. Prabhupāda: . . . is to approach God. This is the Indian tradition. But, as you have mentioned Aurobindo's name, Aurobindo's idea was to make a better situation of this world. He wanted, by yoga practice, a better situation of the world. But our tradition says that is not possible. Bhūgarbha translating: He asks what is meant by the situation in this world. *Prabhupāda: The situation is you have to suffer. Situation is you have to suffer. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). This is a place for suffering, and that also you cannot stay here. Even if you make compromise, "All right, I shall suffer and stay," Kṛṣṇa says no. You suffer, and after you make adjustment, you will be kicked out. Bhūgarbha: He said so do we have to completely leave the world? We cannot stay within the world and sanctify ourselves? Prabhupāda: You have to leave. You cannot stay. You do not want to leave, that's a fact, but you'll be kicked out. When Napoleon fought for France, he did not like to leave, but he was kicked out. I have seen in one park, there is a Napoleon Bonaparte is there—France and Napoleon identified. But France is there, Napoleon is kicked out. (laughter) Bhūgarbha: He's asking that, in view of that, is it impossible to live a household life and at the same time a spiritual life? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhūgarbha: You can do. Professor Chenique: I hope so, yes. Prabhupāda: Arjuna, Arjuna is a householder, he's a military man, but the greatest devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Bhūgarbha: He wants you to mention something about the translations. He wants to express his opinion about the translations that the French translators are doing of your books. Prabhupāda: He is doing? Bhūgarbha He wants to give his opinion. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhūgarbha: He's asking permission to give his opinion. Prabhupāda: It would be very nice. *Bhūgarbha: He says it is very interesting, very important that Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam be translated in the same way as the Gītā . The Bhagavad-gītā has been translated many times into French, but the Bhāgavatam was only translated once, and that also in the last century. Prabhupāda: This is our translation? Bhūgarbha: No, it's another one. In the 1800 it was translated. Prabhupāda: And they simply translation, or elaborately like we are doing? Bhūgarbha: Just translation. *Yogeśvara: Sanskrit on the left*-hand page, French on the right-hand page, but no commentaries. Prabhupāda: That is difficult to understand. Yogeśvara: Yes, no one has read. It was the full twelve cantos, but a very limited edition, and only available in library archives. No one has . . . very few people have seen it. Bhūgarbha: He says he feels that the French public is very demanding in questions of editing and writing, and he feels that the French that's used in our translations should not have a smell of English. Sometimes French translations seem like English written in French. He said they should be in perfect French, and that in the French language there's a need to make things more compact and condensed. He's wondering if we can condense them more than in English. Prabhupāda: So one of us who knows French nicely, he can do that. But there is no difference. They are taking the ideas from English and translating. Yogeśvara: He says, Professor Chenique wishes to know, would it not be more valuable if our men spoke Sanskrit and could translate directly from the Sanskrit into French? *Prabhupāda: There is no much difference. Sanskrit is there and the Sanskrit translation is there. Where is the difference? We are giving the Sanskrit and then word*-to-word translation. Bhūgarbha: He says that when one translates from Sanskrit into English and from English into French, that it's not exactly the same thing in French that it was in Sanskrit. He feels that it would be more . . . Prabhupāda: No, if from Sanskrit to French can be translated, I have no objection. But we have no such arrangement. Yogeśvara: We have no Sanskrit scholars in French yet, no. Prabhupāda: Not only scholar. Not only scholar, he must be a realized soul. Simply scholarship will not help. Simply scholarship will not help. There are many Sanskrit scholars in India. There are many Sanskrit scholars, original Sanskrit scholars in India—they cannot understand Bhāgavata . Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique's point is that we are seeking to introduce these books on a university level, and there's a certain standard that must be met. Prabhupāda: What is that standard? Bhūgarbha: He's just saying that the style of French, he feels that it's too many words. Prabhupāda: French . . . he must be French, expert in language, at the same time, a devotee. Then he can express. Otherwise not. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's secretary, Svarūpa Dāmodara, he asked that Brahmin, bhāgavata paḍā giyā bhāgavata sthāne : "Go and study Bhāgavata from bhāgavata ." I have discussed this in the beginning of translation of Bhāgavata . So Bhāgavata , that is the limit of education. Vidyā bhāgavata vadhiḥ . One has to study and take education up to *Bhāgavatam* . That is, if one understands *Bhāgavatam* , he's finished his education. Bhūgarbha: He agrees. He's just saying that he wishes—he's not criticizing in any way—but he wants that your books have a better audience, then more people will accept them. And he feels that if the French, the way that the French has been written, is changed, we'll have a better audience, it will reach higher. *Prabhupāda: But that is from scholarship point of view. But our point is this Bhāgavata must be presented by bhāgavata . And there is no much scholarship required. Just like Bhāgavata begins with the words janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). This Sanskrit word means the Absolute Truth is that from where everything emanates. Now, that Absolute Truth further explained: anvayād itarataś ca abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). That Absolute Truth is aware of everything, directly and indirectly, of all this creation. In this way, if you step*-by-step study, it is not very difficult so far the word meanings are concerned, but it is a question of realization. Unless one is realized, he cannot explain properly. That is the secret. Therefore we have given the life of Caitanya Mahāprabhu in our Bhāgavatam because He's living Bhāgavatam . Janadrādhi: His point Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that your purports—you are repeating teachings, but this is wanted. His point is that in the French language, the French language cannot accept such repetitions. So he's asking if you could compact more of your purports. But we want to translate your purports with the repetitions, because we know they are wanted. *Yogeśvara: The English comment*-purport that you give very often will repeat one point for a clear understanding to the reader. Stylistically, in French, this is difficult. It is not the accepted standard. French is generally more compact, something is said only one time. So Professor Chenique is hoping that he will see our future translations a better French style in the translation. And Janadrādhi, who is the translator, one of our translators, explains that our point is we wish to keep your intention by repeating the point so that the reader will understand, because it is being said several times. *Prabhupāda: That is the system in Vedic ways. Just like you see Bhagavad*-gītā , in different way Kṛṣṇa has explained the immortality of the soul. You take Bhagavad-gītā , that portion. Find out that. What is that verse? Bhūgarbha: Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit ? Hari-śauri: Before that. Describes negatively in different ways of understanding the soul. Prabhupāda: Yes, positively, negatively. Bhūgarbha: (French translation) Prabhupāda: The same thing is being explained in a different way. Bhūgarbha: The question seems to be a very technical one of just French language. He's not objecting to the . . . Prabhupāda: I've no experience of the French language. I am talking of the Sanskrit language. (laughter) Bhūgarbha: If we give him one purport and see how he would change it. Prabhupāda: There are so many purports you can. (professor reads one purport in French) Bhūgarbha: He said that that one was all right. (laughter) *Professor Chenique: I was, up to recent time, I was commenting the Bhagavad*-gītā in the camping. For eleven years every summer I am commenting the Gītā in the camping. And I commend very warmly this edition of the Bhagavad-gītā . I think it's the best that you may find in France. But when I'm reading the commentary for my students, I find some sentences which are not good French, I think because it is not a very good style, and I hope it won't be that matter with . . . (French) Bhūgarbha: Perhaps Professor Chenique could go over our translations and make any suggestions. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. *Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique is offering to re*-read our publications, to read them, and when he sees something he thinks can be corrected, he will make some indication. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. It is welcome. *Yogeśvara: (devotee enters) This is Hayeśvara, Hayeśvara dāsa, in charge of the Dutch publications, Dutch translator. He has done the Bhagavad*-gītā , this edition, in Dutch. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Thank you very much. Bhūgarbha: This is the Dutch translation. Professor Chenique made the comment . . . Prabhupāda: The idea is, suppose I am in France. I do not know French language, but there is fire in my room, and I have to call my neighbors. So somehow or other I call and take their help. (laughter) *Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique wishes to know whether we cannot do one very small pocketbook edition (of Bhagavad*-gītā ) that will sell very inexpensively. Something like I think in India they have done. Hari-śauri: Like the abridged version in America they did? Yogeśvara: No, something like this, very small. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. It is nice proposal. Hari-śauri: Like that Chinese one? First six chapters. Like that? Prabhupāda: Where is that Chinese? Bhūgarbha: He feels that if we bring out a very small, compact edition, it will sell very nicely. (devotee leaves to find book) Hari-śauri: First six chapters. Professor Chenique: Wonderful. I am . . . (indistinct) . . . Chinese, but I am not able to read. Prabhupāda: First of all, we printed seven hundred copies. And now we are going to print five thousand. Bhūgarbha: He said we're making the highest record of distribution. Professor Chenique: Oh, yes, for this kind of book. Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission: He has to preach in every village and every town on the surface of the globe about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So our business is . . . just the example I have given, that there is fire; I do not know the language. Still, I have to call and take help. So I am doing like that. There is a story. In Calcutta when the Britishers were establishing themselves, so one clerk was working in the office and some monkey came and scattered the office files and everything. So his boss came, he asked him, "What is this? Why you . . .?" So he cannot explain, so he began to jump like monkey, that on account of the monkey coming within the room. So when the language is unknown, we have to jump and show that the monkey came. Yogeśvara: (asks professor if he has any philosophical questions) Professor Chenique thanks you very much for receiving him, and he says that he is . . . Prabhupāda: Many thanks for his coming. Yogeśvara: . . . he is very happy to see you, and that he does not have any questions. He appreciates very much the Vaiṣṇava point of view . . . Prabhupāda: Take this to the daughter. Yogeśvara: And he thinks that seeing the decline of religion in the West, he says it is very important that we are pushing on this mission as we are doing. Bhūgarbha: He doesn't think that he'll be able to follow the life of the Vaiṣṇavas, because our life is too difficult. Prabhupāda: That attitude will help him. That humbleness that, "I cannot follow," that will help. Bhūgarbha: He says that he has a tendency more of a jñānī , and his training has been according to Śaṅkarite and also Buddhist lines. But still he appreciates very much bhakti , and he is very happy to meet the devotees, at the same time he's very depressed to meet all these intellectuals who know so many things but cannot understand anything. *Prabhupāda: Without becoming jñānī , nobody can become bhakta . Without knowledge, if one has become bhakta , he's sentimentalist. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out this verse: samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). (French translation read by the professor) So without becoming fully in knowledge, nobody can become devotee. Bhūgarbha: He asks, What about the opposite—people who become devotees without knowing anything? He's asking . . . Prabhupāda: No, devotee cannot be without knowing, knowledge. A devotee means . . . a devotee means he knows everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). This is Vedic injunction. One who knows the Absolute, he knows everything. Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? That verse, does that mean that one who is neophyte . . . *Prabhupāda: Neophyte is neophyte. Why do you bring him to become a devotee? A devotee is different. A "One plus one equal to two," he's not mathematician. He's learning. There is hope one day he'll be a big mathematician. There are three stages, kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī, uttama-adhikārī. So when you speak of "devotee," that is this uttama-adhikārī. So he knows everything. Rather, the so-called jñānī , he does not know, because he does not know Kṛṣṇa. The so-called jñānī , he does not know what is Personality of Godhead. He's impersonalist. Therefore he is still unaware of the Absolute Truth. Therefore he's not jñānī . His jñāna , his knowledge, is lacking. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said: If one jñānī is impersonalist, he's not jñānī . He is still unaware of the Absolute Truth. He does not know. Therefore it will take many, many births to come to the understanding of the Personality of Godhead. Therefore he's not jñānī; *he's claiming to be jñānī . Such jñānī will take many hundreds of births to come to the position of real jñānī . Find out this bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). (devotee reads in French) So*-called jñānī , after many, many births, when he understands Kṛṣṇa and surrenders to Him, then he's jñānī. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . That kind of jñānī is very, very rare. The impersonalist means ajñānī . Yes. Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa, the person. *There is another verse in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam : āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Āruhya kṛcchreṇa , by the jñāna process, is undergoing austerities and penances, one comes to the platform of paraṁ padam , monism, or platform of oneness. But because he has no shelter, he patanty adhaḥ , again comes to the material. Just like so many sannyāsīs in India, they are very learned, they have come to the platform of Brahman realization, but after some time they come to the material field for political work, for social work. They give up this world, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . If jagat is mithyā , is false, why does he come for social work? Just like these people going to the moon planet, but because they do not get any shelter, they take some sand and come back again. So what is the use of going there and spending so much money and come back with little sand, and satisfied, "Now we have studied"? Because they have no shelter. So the jñānīs , they have no shelter. Yes. They may go very high in the sky, but because they have no shelter they come back again. Punar muṣaka bhava : again became a mouse. So that is not jñānī; *that is ajñānī. Jñānī is described here, mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). Brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20) is jñānī, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā , "I have nothing to do with material world." Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54), there is no lamentation, there is no hankering. When he has attained that stage, brahma-bhūta stage, reality, then he is entrance in the bhakti . Otherwise a neophyte. Bhūgarbha: He says that any person on the path of knowledge who rejects the Personality of Godhead, his knowledge is finished. Prabhupāda: That is sublime knowledge. When you talk with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, dance with Him, that is sublime perfection. Otherwise, you will have to dance with the dog. Bhūgarbha: He's asking that since he first read the *Gītā* when he was very young, since that time he's been trying to compact paths of jñāna and bhakti and follow the teachings of all the great religions. And he's wondering if he should continue on that same path. *Prabhupāda: No, jñāna means that to understand the Absolute Truth. If you do not understand the Absolute Truth, what is the meaning of this jñāna ? That means knowledge is imperfect. So, but if you want to know the Absolute Truth, ultimately, then bhakti is required. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). If you want to know the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Being, then you have to go through bhakti. Jñāna, so-called jñāna, bhakti includes. Just like bhakti includes everything, but jñāna does not include bhakti . It is imperfect. In jñāna there is little touch of bhakti , but in bhakti there is full jñāna . Because unless you . . . absolute Truth is realized in three stages, brahmeti, paramātmeti, bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). So those who are on the stage of Brahman and Paramātmā, they're not in the Absolute Truth. Part of it. But when one understands Bhagavān, then he understands Paramātmā and Brahman. That is full knowledge. There are three things— sat, cit, ānanda . So Brahman realization is sat . Paramātmā realization is cit. But ānanda is not there. But if he does not get ānanda , then falls down. Bhūgarbha: He says Christianity says the same thing. Not Christianity of today, but original Christianity said the same thing. *Prabhupāda: Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). This is the Vedānta . We are, as spirit soul, being part and parcel of the Supreme, ānanda is our goal, ānanda , blissfulness. But that blissfulness you cannot get simply by understanding sat-cit. You must come to the platform ānanda . That is Kṛṣṇa. So because these so-called jñānīs , they do not get ānanda , they do not have the entrance into the ānanda platform, they come to this material ānanda , this material pleasure. Therefore they take to this hospitality or opening a school or philanthropic work—another type of this material pleasure. Therefore Śaṅkarācārya recommended: *Your simply this grammatical jugglery of words will not help you. Bhaja govindam. Therefore we, govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . We, our principle, is to worship Govinda, the ādi-puruṣa, tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . *So without coming to that stage, perfection is not complete. Partial, the sac*-cid-ānanda , the brahma-anubhūti is partial, sat . "I am not matter. I am not destructible. I am eternal." This is sat . And cit , knowledge, full knowledge about spiritual . . . but ānanda you have to come to the third stage, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate . So we have to come to the stage of understanding Bhagavān; *otherwise knowledge is imperfect. Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Bhakti is defined by Rūpa Gosvāmī, jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛta , above jñāna stage. Jñāna , karma , karma stage, jñāna stage, above them. Untouched by jñāna. Karma is material, and jñāna is marginal, between material and spiritual. So you have to go above that, karma jñāna , then it is bhakti stage. Yogeśvara: Also that verse in *Bhāgavatam* : *Prabhupāda: Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti*-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ. Find out this verse. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. I don't see Bhagavān dāsa. Why? Bhūgarbha: He's organizing the ceremony for tomorrow. Prabhupāda: The difference is, a bhakta , pure bhakta , he has jñāna . But a jñānī may not have bhakti . Yogeśvara: Once Professor Chenique asked me whether we thought it was possible for a Christian like himself to also realize the perfection of Vaiṣṇavism. Prabhupāda: Why not? Christianism is also Vaiṣṇavism. Christianism is Vaiṣṇavism. Anyone who accepts the supremacy of God, he's a Vaiṣṇava. So Christian, Christianity, "God is great," they say. So that is Vaiṣṇavism, "God is great." Professor Chenique: Oui, but now they say God is dead. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhūgarbha: Now the Christians say that God is dead. *Prabhupāda: Now, that is not Christianity. If you can change, there is no religion. That is mental concoction. As soon as you make change, we reject immediately, useless. Religion: the word of God. Religion means the word of God. You cannot change the word of God. If you change the word of God—that is material, that is not religion. You cannot change the word of God by your votes. That is useless. If you say that religion . . . religion means the dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Find out this verse, Sixth Canto. There is no Sixth Canto there? Hari-śauri: We have one volume, but it's the wrong volume. We have Volume Two. Bhūgarbha: I think he's bringing. *Prabhupāda: Oh. The definition of religion is just like law. Law can be given by the government. You cannot make law. If you make at home some law, nobody will touch it. It is not obligatory. But if government says, "Keep to the right," it is obligatory. This is law. So religion, you cannot manufacture religion. Religion means the word of God. And if yearly or quarterly you change the words, that is not religion. That is not religion. That is mental concoction. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. No change. Others, they are interpreting in their own way. That is not Bhagavad-gītā . That is something else. (to devotee) Keep it there. He will take. In the words of God there is no question of changing. You cannot change. As soon as you make a change, immediately it is material—it has nothing to do with spiritual world. The same example: the law of government is one, and if you make change, that is not law. Government says, "Keep to the right," you have to keep to the right. You cannot make "Keep to the left," no. So that is nowadays happening—which edition of Christianity? There are so many. Therefore it is the purport of Christianity is lost. That is lost. You have, what that verse I wanted? Hari-śauri: They couldn't find the book. *Prabhupāda: Oh, they couldn't. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). This is the verse. Religion means the words given by God. But they have no idea what is God, whether He can speak or He's a dull, dumb. That is the difficulty. The Māyāvādīs, they say God has no mouth. So how He will speak? He has no eyes, He has no ear. Then who will hear my prayer? That is Māyāvādī definition. But Vedas say apāni-pāda javana gṛhīta , that both things, that He has no leg, but he can walk faster than anyone. He has no ear, but He can hear everything. Just like we have got this ear, but I cannot hear what is going on next room. But God has no ear, but He can hear here, there, everywhere. This is Vedic definition. This is Vedic definition. Śṛṇoti akarṇa . He has no ears, but He hears everything. That means that it is not the fact that He has no ear, but He has no limited ear like me. And therefore described sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1). You cannot compare with this body, because sat means eternal. So this body is not eternal. So when God has no body means He hasn't got a body like this. He is sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1). His body is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge. But He has body. You cannot say imperson. But His body is of different quality. Just like you have got body, but you cannot swim in the . . . or you cannot remain within the water. Similarly, He has got body, but not the body like this, perishable. Sac-cid-ānanda. This body is perishable. But He has got imperishable. Avyayātmā . We have to understand in that way. Not that because it is stated He has no body that means He is zero. No, He has got body, but not a body not like this. Bhūgarbha: Professor Chenique's suggesting that in the Middle Ages there were many philosophers who also were researching the same questions of the body of God and how His body is different from ours, and they came to exactly the same conclusions as are mentioned in the *Bhāgavatam* . So he's suggesting that some of our devotees should read some of these books so we'll be able to in our preaching show the French people these conceptions that God has a body are not foreign conceptions, and actually even the European philosophers in the Middle Ages were saying the same things. Prabhupāda: No, you can convince by your words. It is not necessary that you have to read so many other words. If you are yourself convinced, then you can convince others by your words. The fact. The same example, when there is fire actually you can express it by any word. *Bhūgarbha: He says that . . . he feels that it's because he has read all of these books during his youth, now he's able to appreciate Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Bhūgarbha: He feels that because he read all of these other books during his youth that now he's come to the point that he can appreciate Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who is after truth, he'll appreciate truth. That's a fact. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1). That is the Bhāgavata beginning. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. If one is after truth, he'll appreciate truth wherever it is. Every point, from any angle of vision, those who are searching after truth, everything is explained—primarily in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and elaborately in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So about the Christian religion, what is the conception of God? *Bhūgarbha: He said: "If I speak in English then I'll say that God is the father, the son and the Holy Ghost—not one person, but three persons. But if I want to say the same thing in Sanskrit, then I'll say sac*-cid-ānanda ." Prabhupāda: Three persons? God is three persons? *Bhūgarbha: Father, the son and the Holy Spirit. But he says that that means the same thing, as far as he's concerned, as sac*-cid-ānanda . Prabhupāda: So why three person? God is one. Expansion, you can say expansion. Just like brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti (SB 1.2.11). The person is one. In the dictionary it is said: "God, the Supreme Being," is it not? Person is one. So person is one, now His expansion, His son, His spirit . . . what is that? Holy Spirit. That is another thing. But the person is one, the Supreme. What is the definition of God? Just see. Bhūgarbha: He said that in Christianity it's more complicated than that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Person is one, but they have no idea the Supreme Person can expand. What is that? Hari-śauri: (reading from dictionary) It says: "Superhuman being, worshiped as having power over nature and human fortunes; Deity." Prabhupāda: God? Hari-śauri: Yes, this is the definition of God. "Superhuman being." Prabhupāda: Human being? Hari-śauri: "Superhuman being. Worshiped as having power over nature and over human fortunes." Bhūgarbha: Demigods. Prabhupāda: No other definition? God Supreme Being is not there? Hari-śauri: "Supreme Being, creator and ruler of the universe." Prabhupāda: Yes, Supreme Being. Supreme Being means one. There cannot be many Supreme. But He can expand. Bhūgarbha: That's the point. (translates for professor) *Prabhupāda: This is defined in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (BS 5.33). Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam. Ananta-rūpam : many millions of expansion. Ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam, but He's the original person. So the Supreme Being is one, but He has got multi-expansion. That is another thing. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca. Bhūgarbha: He says Christianity is actually coherent, but one has to study it very deeply to understand. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhūgarbha: He says just like Vaiṣṇavism is also coherent, but one has to study very deeply. Otherwise, one cannot see it. He said if we examine all the religions and find out the axiomatic truths of every religion, we'll see how they are all coherent. Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that religion means to understand God. If one does not understand God, then his religion is still defective. Religion means to understand God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). Just when you understand God and your relationship with God, then it is perfection of religion. Hari-śauri: Verse 6. Bhūgarbha: He said that he feels very thankful that you've given him such a long darśana . He feels very happy that you've given so much enlightenment in many subjects. He's just passing through with his daughter. He'd like to stay tomorrow to see the installation of the Deities, but he has to go to a Tibetan temple in the south of France. On Saturday he has to be there, so he has to drive, and he said that he's found the Tibetans are also very good devotees. Prabhupāda: Very good. Jaya . (end) (Conversation with Professor Francois Chenique) Prabhupāda: How are you? Hari-śauri: No, this is not him. This is a devotee. Yogeśvara: Professor's upstairs putting on a dhotī . He brought his daughter. Prabhupāda: Oh? *Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique teaches a course in Bhagavad*-gītā at the University, and he is also doing translations of Śaṅkarācārya and teaches for the Federation of yoga . He considers himself a Christian Advaitist. (break) . . . some questions regarding the publications in French. For example, on the front of Back to Godhead magazine, in the English edition and other language editions, they have kept the phrase "Godhead is light, darkness is nescience. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience." Now in French it is difficult to translate that. There is no word Godhead . And if you say "God is light," in French it sounds very impersonalist. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yogeśvara: In French, Dieu est lumiere , "God is light." Many groups say like that. We use the word Godhead, and that distinguishes us from the other groups. Now, is the phrase very important, and do you want us to keep it on the front of the magazine? It should be there. Prabhupāda: There is little difference between "God" and "Godhead." Yogeśvara: So then we will have to try to find . . . Prabhupāda: Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ. Īśvara, more or less everyone, but īśvaraḥ paramaḥ , that is Godhead. The Māyāvādīs, they do not distinguish between one īśvara to another īśvara . That may be on the ordinary level, but there is parama īśvara. Yogeśvara: One possibility would be to say, "God the Supreme Person is light." That we can translate. Prabhupāda: God means Supreme Person. But these advaitavādī , Māyāvādīs, they have made God everyone. God means Supreme Person, that is the dictionary word. "Supreme Being." That is the dictionary meaning. God does not mean ordinary, but they have made ordinary, anyone God: "I am God, you are God, he is God." Then what is meaning of God? Yogeśvara: Therefore we say Godhead . Prabhupāda: Yes. Head man. There are many men; He is head man. Godhead word is also there in the dictionary. You find out. Yogeśvara: "Godhead—being God or a God, divine nature, Deity, the Godhead, God." The word is there, but the definition they've given is not very . . . Prabhupāda: They do not know. (laughs) They do not know what is God, what is Godhead. They think all these are fictitious. Throughout the whole world they do not know what is God. Simply they know the word, that's all. What it means they do not know. That we are giving. Here is God, Godhead. Nobody knows, nobody cares to know. That is nescience. They think it is an idea, that's all. Actually there is God, there is kingdom of God, one can go and speak with Him, dance with Him. They cannot believe there is a . . . it is beyond their poor fund of knowledge. Therefore they do not accept Kṛṣṇa as God. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ ( BG 9.11). God is the Supreme Person, Supreme Being. Actually there is place where God lives. They do not know. This is the first time, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are giving these ideas; otherwise, who knows it? Nobody knows it. The Christian or Muhammadan is . . . nobody knows. And religion means to accept God as the Supreme Person. They do not know God. Then what is meaning of religion? Religion means to accept a Supreme Person as the supreme controller. That is religion. How the Supreme Person is working in manufacturing this flower, let the scientists explain. But there is no brain? Just nicely painted, symmetrically, each flower of the same class, another class, another class, another class. (guests enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yogeśvara: This is Professor Francois Chenique and his daughter. They drove from Paris this morning to see you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. You can come forward. I have read your review of our book. It is very nice. (Bhūgarbha translates from this point onward) Prabhupāda: Very nice. Your study about this tradition, Indian tradition, I think he has mentioned. Indian tradition, the whole Vedic literature . . . he understands English? Yogeśvara: Yes, but I should translate. He's asked me to translate. Prabhupāda: . . . is to approach God. This is the Indian tradition. But, as you have mentioned Aurobindo's name, Aurobindo's idea was to make a better situation of this world. He wanted, by yoga practice, a better situation of the world. But our tradition says that is not possible. Bhūgarbha translating: He asks what is meant by the situation in this world. *Prabhupāda: The situation is you have to suffer. Situation is you have to suffer. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). This is a place for suffering, and that also you cannot stay here. Even if you make compromise, "All right, I shall suffer and stay," Kṛṣṇa says no. You suffer, and after you make adjustment, you will be kicked out. Bhūgarbha: He said so do we have to completely leave the world? We cannot stay within the world and sanctify ourselves? Prabhupāda: You have to leave. You cannot stay. You do not want to leave, that's a fact, but you'll be kicked out. When Napoleon fought for France, he did not like to leave, but he was kicked out. I have seen in one park, there is a Napoleon Bonaparte is there—France and Napoleon identified. But France is there, Napoleon is kicked out. (laughter) Bhūgarbha: He's asking that, in view of that, is it impossible to live a household life and at the same time a spiritual life? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhūgarbha: You can do. Professor Chenique: I hope so, yes. Prabhupāda: Arjuna, Arjuna is a householder, he's a military man, but the greatest devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Bhūgarbha: He wants you to mention something about the translations. He wants to express his opinion about the translations that the French translators are doing of your books. Prabhupāda: He is doing? Bhūgarbha He wants to give his opinion. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhūgarbha: He's asking permission to give his opinion. Prabhupāda: It would be very nice. *Bhūgarbha: He says it is very interesting, very important that Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam be translated in the same way as the Gītā . The Bhagavad-gītā has been translated many times into French, but the Bhāgavatam was only translated once, and that also in the last century. Prabhupāda: This is our translation? Bhūgarbha: No, it's another one. In the 1800 it was translated. Prabhupāda: And they simply translation, or elaborately like we are doing? Bhūgarbha: Just translation. *Yogeśvara: Sanskrit on the left*-hand page, French on the right-hand page, but no commentaries. Prabhupāda: That is difficult to understand. Yogeśvara: Yes, no one has read. It was the full twelve cantos, but a very limited edition, and only available in library archives. No one has . . . very few people have seen it. Bhūgarbha: He says he feels that the French public is very demanding in questions of editing and writing, and he feels that the French that's used in our translations should not have a smell of English. Sometimes French translations seem like English written in French. He said they should be in perfect French, and that in the French language there's a need to make things more compact and condensed. He's wondering if we can condense them more than in English. Prabhupāda: So one of us who knows French nicely, he can do that. But there is no difference. They are taking the ideas from English and translating. Yogeśvara: He says, Professor Chenique wishes to know, would it not be more valuable if our men spoke Sanskrit and could translate directly from the Sanskrit into French? *Prabhupāda: There is no much difference. Sanskrit is there and the Sanskrit translation is there. Where is the difference? We are giving the Sanskrit and then word*-to-word translation. Bhūgarbha: He says that when one translates from Sanskrit into English and from English into French, that it's not exactly the same thing in French that it was in Sanskrit. He feels that it would be more . . . Prabhupāda: No, if from Sanskrit to French can be translated, I have no objection. But we have no such arrangement. Yogeśvara: We have no Sanskrit scholars in French yet, no. Prabhupāda: Not only scholar. Not only scholar, he must be a realized soul. Simply scholarship will not help. Simply scholarship will not help. There are many Sanskrit scholars in India. There are many Sanskrit scholars, original Sanskrit scholars in India—they cannot understand Bhāgavata . Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique's point is that we are seeking to introduce these books on a university level, and there's a certain standard that must be met. Prabhupāda: What is that standard? Bhūgarbha: He's just saying that the style of French, he feels that it's too many words. Prabhupāda: French . . . he must be French, expert in language, at the same time, a devotee. Then he can express. Otherwise not. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's secretary, Svarūpa Dāmodara, he asked that Brahmin, bhāgavata paḍā giyā bhāgavata sthāne : "Go and study Bhāgavata from bhāgavata ." I have discussed this in the beginning of translation of Bhāgavata . So Bhāgavata , that is the limit of education. Vidyā bhāgavata vadhiḥ . One has to study and take education up to *Bhāgavatam* . That is, if one understands *Bhāgavatam* , he's finished his education. Bhūgarbha: He agrees. He's just saying that he wishes—he's not criticizing in any way—but he wants that your books have a better audience, then more people will accept them. And he feels that if the French, the way that the French has been written, is changed, we'll have a better audience, it will reach higher. *Prabhupāda: But that is from scholarship point of view. But our point is this Bhāgavata must be presented by bhāgavata . And there is no much scholarship required. Just like Bhāgavata begins with the words janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). This Sanskrit word means the Absolute Truth is that from where everything emanates. Now, that Absolute Truth further explained: anvayād itarataś ca abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). That Absolute Truth is aware of everything, directly and indirectly, of all this creation. In this way, if you step*-by-step study, it is not very difficult so far the word meanings are concerned, but it is a question of realization. Unless one is realized, he cannot explain properly. That is the secret. Therefore we have given the life of Caitanya Mahāprabhu in our Bhāgavatam because He's living Bhāgavatam . Janadrādhi: His point Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that your purports—you are repeating teachings, but this is wanted. His point is that in the French language, the French language cannot accept such repetitions. So he's asking if you could compact more of your purports. But we want to translate your purports with the repetitions, because we know they are wanted. *Yogeśvara: The English comment*-purport that you give very often will repeat one point for a clear understanding to the reader. Stylistically, in French, this is difficult. It is not the accepted standard. French is generally more compact, something is said only one time. So Professor Chenique is hoping that he will see our future translations a better French style in the translation. And Janadrādhi, who is the translator, one of our translators, explains that our point is we wish to keep your intention by repeating the point so that the reader will understand, because it is being said several times. *Prabhupāda: That is the system in Vedic ways. Just like you see Bhagavad*-gītā , in different way Kṛṣṇa has explained the immortality of the soul. You take Bhagavad-gītā , that portion. Find out that. What is that verse? Bhūgarbha: Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit ? Hari-śauri: Before that. Describes negatively in different ways of understanding the soul. Prabhupāda: Yes, positively, negatively. Bhūgarbha: (French translation) Prabhupāda: The same thing is being explained in a different way. Bhūgarbha: The question seems to be a very technical one of just French language. He's not objecting to the . . . Prabhupāda: I've no experience of the French language. I am talking of the Sanskrit language. (laughter) Bhūgarbha: If we give him one purport and see how he would change it. Prabhupāda: There are so many purports you can. (professor reads one purport in French) Bhūgarbha: He said that that one was all right. (laughter) *Professor Chenique: I was, up to recent time, I was commenting the Bhagavad*-gītā in the camping. For eleven years every summer I am commenting the Gītā in the camping. And I commend very warmly this edition of the Bhagavad-gītā . I think it's the best that you may find in France. But when I'm reading the commentary for my students, I find some sentences which are not good French, I think because it is not a very good style, and I hope it won't be that matter with . . . (French) Bhūgarbha: Perhaps Professor Chenique could go over our translations and make any suggestions. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. *Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique is offering to re*-read our publications, to read them, and when he sees something he thinks can be corrected, he will make some indication. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. It is welcome. *Yogeśvara: (devotee enters) This is Hayeśvara, Hayeśvara dāsa, in charge of the Dutch publications, Dutch translator. He has done the Bhagavad*-gītā , this edition, in Dutch. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Thank you very much. Bhūgarbha: This is the Dutch translation. Professor Chenique made the comment . . . Prabhupāda: The idea is, suppose I am in France. I do not know French language, but there is fire in my room, and I have to call my neighbors. So somehow or other I call and take their help. (laughter) *Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique wishes to know whether we cannot do one very small pocketbook edition (of Bhagavad*-gītā ) that will sell very inexpensively. Something like I think in India they have done. Hari-śauri: Like the abridged version in America they did? Yogeśvara: No, something like this, very small. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. It is nice proposal. Hari-śauri: Like that Chinese one? First six chapters. Like that? Prabhupāda: Where is that Chinese? Bhūgarbha: He feels that if we bring out a very small, compact edition, it will sell very nicely. (devotee leaves to find book) Hari-śauri: First six chapters. Professor Chenique: Wonderful. I am . . . (indistinct) . . . Chinese, but I am not able to read. Prabhupāda: First of all, we printed seven hundred copies. And now we are going to print five thousand. Bhūgarbha: He said we're making the highest record of distribution. Professor Chenique: Oh, yes, for this kind of book. Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission: He has to preach in every village and every town on the surface of the globe about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So our business is . . . just the example I have given, that there is fire; I do not know the language. Still, I have to call and take help. So I am doing like that. There is a story. In Calcutta when the Britishers were establishing themselves, so one clerk was working in the office and some monkey came and scattered the office files and everything. So his boss came, he asked him, "What is this? Why you . . .?" So he cannot explain, so he began to jump like monkey, that on account of the monkey coming within the room. So when the language is unknown, we have to jump and show that the monkey came. Yogeśvara: (asks professor if he has any philosophical questions) Professor Chenique thanks you very much for receiving him, and he says that he is . . . Prabhupāda: Many thanks for his coming. Yogeśvara: . . . he is very happy to see you, and that he does not have any questions. He appreciates very much the Vaiṣṇava point of view . . . Prabhupāda: Take this to the daughter. Yogeśvara: And he thinks that seeing the decline of religion in the West, he says it is very important that we are pushing on this mission as we are doing. Bhūgarbha: He doesn't think that he'll be able to follow the life of the Vaiṣṇavas, because our life is too difficult. Prabhupāda: That attitude will help him. That humbleness that, "I cannot follow," that will help. Bhūgarbha: He says that he has a tendency more of a jñānī , and his training has been according to Śaṅkarite and also Buddhist lines. But still he appreciates very much bhakti , and he is very happy to meet the devotees, at the same time he's very depressed to meet all these intellectuals who know so many things but cannot understand anything. *Prabhupāda: Without becoming jñānī , nobody can become bhakta . Without knowledge, if one has become bhakta , he's sentimentalist. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out this verse: samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). (French translation read by the professor) So without becoming fully in knowledge, nobody can become devotee. Bhūgarbha: He asks, What about the opposite—people who become devotees without knowing anything? He's asking . . . Prabhupāda: No, devotee cannot be without knowing, knowledge. A devotee means . . . a devotee means he knows everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). This is Vedic injunction. One who knows the Absolute, he knows everything. Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? That verse, does that mean that one who is neophyte . . . *Prabhupāda: Neophyte is neophyte. Why do you bring him to become a devotee? A devotee is different. A "One plus one equal to two," he's not mathematician. He's learning. There is hope one day he'll be a big mathematician. There are three stages, kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī, uttama-adhikārī. So when you speak of "devotee," that is this uttama-adhikārī. So he knows everything. Rather, the so-called jñānī , he does not know, because he does not know Kṛṣṇa. The so-called jñānī , he does not know what is Personality of Godhead. He's impersonalist. Therefore he is still unaware of the Absolute Truth. Therefore he's not jñānī . His jñāna , his knowledge, is lacking. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said: If one jñānī is impersonalist, he's not jñānī . He is still unaware of the Absolute Truth. He does not know. Therefore it will take many, many births to come to the understanding of the Personality of Godhead. Therefore he's not jñānī; *he's claiming to be jñānī . Such jñānī will take many hundreds of births to come to the position of real jñānī . Find out this bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). (devotee reads in French) So*-called jñānī , after many, many births, when he understands Kṛṣṇa and surrenders to Him, then he's jñānī. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . That kind of jñānī is very, very rare. The impersonalist means ajñānī . Yes. Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa, the person. *There is another verse in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam : āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Āruhya kṛcchreṇa , by the jñāna process, is undergoing austerities and penances, one comes to the platform of paraṁ padam , monism, or platform of oneness. But because he has no shelter, he patanty adhaḥ , again comes to the material. Just like so many sannyāsīs in India, they are very learned, they have come to the platform of Brahman realization, but after some time they come to the material field for political work, for social work. They give up this world, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . If jagat is mithyā , is false, why does he come for social work? Just like these people going to the moon planet, but because they do not get any shelter, they take some sand and come back again. So what is the use of going there and spending so much money and come back with little sand, and satisfied, "Now we have studied"? Because they have no shelter. So the jñānīs , they have no shelter. Yes. They may go very high in the sky, but because they have no shelter they come back again. Punar muṣaka bhava : again became a mouse. So that is not jñānī; *that is ajñānī. Jñānī is described here, mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). Brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20) is jñānī, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā , "I have nothing to do with material world." Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54), there is no lamentation, there is no hankering. When he has attained that stage, brahma-bhūta stage, reality, then he is entrance in the bhakti . Otherwise a neophyte. Bhūgarbha: He says that any person on the path of knowledge who rejects the Personality of Godhead, his knowledge is finished. Prabhupāda: That is sublime knowledge. When you talk with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, dance with Him, that is sublime perfection. Otherwise, you will have to dance with the dog. Bhūgarbha: He's asking that since he first read the *Gītā* when he was very young, since that time he's been trying to compact paths of jñāna and bhakti and follow the teachings of all the great religions. And he's wondering if he should continue on that same path. *Prabhupāda: No, jñāna means that to understand the Absolute Truth. If you do not understand the Absolute Truth, what is the meaning of this jñāna ? That means knowledge is imperfect. So, but if you want to know the Absolute Truth, ultimately, then bhakti is required. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). If you want to know the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Being, then you have to go through bhakti. Jñāna, so-called jñāna, bhakti includes. Just like bhakti includes everything, but jñāna does not include bhakti . It is imperfect. In jñāna there is little touch of bhakti , but in bhakti there is full jñāna . Because unless you . . . absolute Truth is realized in three stages, brahmeti, paramātmeti, bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). So those who are on the stage of Brahman and Paramātmā, they're not in the Absolute Truth. Part of it. But when one understands Bhagavān, then he understands Paramātmā and Brahman. That is full knowledge. There are three things— sat, cit, ānanda . So Brahman realization is sat . Paramātmā realization is cit. But ānanda is not there. But if he does not get ānanda , then falls down. Bhūgarbha: He says Christianity says the same thing. Not Christianity of today, but original Christianity said the same thing. *Prabhupāda: Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). This is the Vedānta . We are, as spirit soul, being part and parcel of the Supreme, ānanda is our goal, ānanda , blissfulness. But that blissfulness you cannot get simply by understanding sat-cit. You must come to the platform ānanda . That is Kṛṣṇa. So because these so-called jñānīs , they do not get ānanda , they do not have the entrance into the ānanda platform, they come to this material ānanda , this material pleasure. Therefore they take to this hospitality or opening a school or philanthropic work—another type of this material pleasure. Therefore Śaṅkarācārya recommended: *Your simply this grammatical jugglery of words will not help you. Bhaja govindam. Therefore we, govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . We, our principle, is to worship Govinda, the ādi-puruṣa, tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . *So without coming to that stage, perfection is not complete. Partial, the sac*-cid-ānanda , the brahma-anubhūti is partial, sat . "I am not matter. I am not destructible. I am eternal." This is sat . And cit , knowledge, full knowledge about spiritual . . . but ānanda you have to come to the third stage, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate . So we have to come to the stage of understanding Bhagavān; *otherwise knowledge is imperfect. Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Bhakti is defined by Rūpa Gosvāmī, jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛta , above jñāna stage. Jñāna , karma , karma stage, jñāna stage, above them. Untouched by jñāna. Karma is material, and jñāna is marginal, between material and spiritual. So you have to go above that, karma jñāna , then it is bhakti stage. Yogeśvara: Also that verse in *Bhāgavatam* : *Prabhupāda: Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti*-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ. Find out this verse. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. I don't see Bhagavān dāsa. Why? Bhūgarbha: He's organizing the ceremony for tomorrow. Prabhupāda: The difference is, a bhakta , pure bhakta , he has jñāna . But a jñānī may not have bhakti . Yogeśvara: Once Professor Chenique asked me whether we thought it was possible for a Christian like himself to also realize the perfection of Vaiṣṇavism. Prabhupāda: Why not? Christianism is also Vaiṣṇavism. Christianism is Vaiṣṇavism. Anyone who accepts the supremacy of God, he's a Vaiṣṇava. So Christian, Christianity, "God is great," they say. So that is Vaiṣṇavism, "God is great." Professor Chenique: Oui, but now they say God is dead. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhūgarbha: Now the Christians say that God is dead. *Prabhupāda: Now, that is not Christianity. If you can change, there is no religion. That is mental concoction. As soon as you make change, we reject immediately, useless. Religion: the word of God. Religion means the word of God. You cannot change the word of God. If you change the word of God—that is material, that is not religion. You cannot change the word of God by your votes. That is useless. If you say that religion . . . religion means the dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Find out this verse, Sixth Canto. There is no Sixth Canto there? Hari-śauri: We have one volume, but it's the wrong volume. We have Volume Two. Bhūgarbha: I think he's bringing. *Prabhupāda: Oh. The definition of religion is just like law. Law can be given by the government. You cannot make law. If you make at home some law, nobody will touch it. It is not obligatory. But if government says, "Keep to the right," it is obligatory. This is law. So religion, you cannot manufacture religion. Religion means the word of God. And if yearly or quarterly you change the words, that is not religion. That is not religion. That is mental concoction. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. No change. Others, they are interpreting in their own way. That is not Bhagavad-gītā . That is something else. (to devotee) Keep it there. He will take. In the words of God there is no question of changing. You cannot change. As soon as you make a change, immediately it is material—it has nothing to do with spiritual world. The same example: the law of government is one, and if you make change, that is not law. Government says, "Keep to the right," you have to keep to the right. You cannot make "Keep to the left," no. So that is nowadays happening—which edition of Christianity? There are so many. Therefore it is the purport of Christianity is lost. That is lost. You have, what that verse I wanted? Hari-śauri: They couldn't find the book. *Prabhupāda: Oh, they couldn't. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). This is the verse. Religion means the words given by God. But they have no idea what is God, whether He can speak or He's a dull, dumb. That is the difficulty. The Māyāvādīs, they say God has no mouth. So how He will speak? He has no eyes, He has no ear. Then who will hear my prayer? That is Māyāvādī definition. But Vedas say apāni-pāda javana gṛhīta , that both things, that He has no leg, but he can walk faster than anyone. He has no ear, but He can hear everything. Just like we have got this ear, but I cannot hear what is going on next room. But God has no ear, but He can hear here, there, everywhere. This is Vedic definition. This is Vedic definition. Śṛṇoti akarṇa . He has no ears, but He hears everything. That means that it is not the fact that He has no ear, but He has no limited ear like me. And therefore described sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1). You cannot compare with this body, because sat means eternal. So this body is not eternal. So when God has no body means He hasn't got a body like this. He is sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1). His body is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge. But He has body. You cannot say imperson. But His body is of different quality. Just like you have got body, but you cannot swim in the . . . or you cannot remain within the water. Similarly, He has got body, but not the body like this, perishable. Sac-cid-ānanda. This body is perishable. But He has got imperishable. Avyayātmā . We have to understand in that way. Not that because it is stated He has no body that means He is zero. No, He has got body, but not a body not like this. Bhūgarbha: Professor Chenique's suggesting that in the Middle Ages there were many philosophers who also were researching the same questions of the body of God and how His body is different from ours, and they came to exactly the same conclusions as are mentioned in the *Bhāgavatam* . So he's suggesting that some of our devotees should read some of these books so we'll be able to in our preaching show the French people these conceptions that God has a body are not foreign conceptions, and actually even the European philosophers in the Middle Ages were saying the same things. Prabhupāda: No, you can convince by your words. It is not necessary that you have to read so many other words. If you are yourself convinced, then you can convince others by your words. The fact. The same example, when there is fire actually you can express it by any word. *Bhūgarbha: He says that . . . he feels that it's because he has read all of these books during his youth, now he's able to appreciate Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Bhūgarbha: He feels that because he read all of these other books during his youth that now he's come to the point that he can appreciate Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who is after truth, he'll appreciate truth. That's a fact. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1). That is the Bhāgavata beginning. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. If one is after truth, he'll appreciate truth wherever it is. Every point, from any angle of vision, those who are searching after truth, everything is explained—primarily in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and elaborately in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So about the Christian religion, what is the conception of God? *Bhūgarbha: He said: "If I speak in English then I'll say that God is the father, the son and the Holy Ghost—not one person, but three persons. But if I want to say the same thing in Sanskrit, then I'll say sac*-cid-ānanda ." Prabhupāda: Three persons? God is three persons? *Bhūgarbha: Father, the son and the Holy Spirit. But he says that that means the same thing, as far as he's concerned, as sac*-cid-ānanda . Prabhupāda: So why three person? God is one. Expansion, you can say expansion. Just like brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti (SB 1.2.11). The person is one. In the dictionary it is said: "God, the Supreme Being," is it not? Person is one. So person is one, now His expansion, His son, His spirit . . . what is that? Holy Spirit. That is another thing. But the person is one, the Supreme. What is the definition of God? Just see. Bhūgarbha: He said that in Christianity it's more complicated than that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Person is one, but they have no idea the Supreme Person can expand. What is that? Hari-śauri: (reading from dictionary) It says: "Superhuman being, worshiped as having power over nature and human fortunes; Deity." Prabhupāda: God? Hari-śauri: Yes, this is the definition of God. "Superhuman being." Prabhupāda: Human being? Hari-śauri: "Superhuman being. Worshiped as having power over nature and over human fortunes." Bhūgarbha: Demigods. Prabhupāda: No other definition? God Supreme Being is not there? Hari-śauri: "Supreme Being, creator and ruler of the universe." Prabhupāda: Yes, Supreme Being. Supreme Being means one. There cannot be many Supreme. But He can expand. Bhūgarbha: That's the point. (translates for professor) *Prabhupāda: This is defined in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (BS 5.33). Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam. Ananta-rūpam : many millions of expansion. Ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam, but He's the original person. So the Supreme Being is one, but He has got multi-expansion. That is another thing. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca. Bhūgarbha: He says Christianity is actually coherent, but one has to study it very deeply to understand. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhūgarbha: He says just like Vaiṣṇavism is also coherent, but one has to study very deeply. Otherwise, one cannot see it. He said if we examine all the religions and find out the axiomatic truths of every religion, we'll see how they are all coherent. Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that religion means to understand God. If one does not understand God, then his religion is still defective. Religion means to understand God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). Just when you understand God and your relationship with God, then it is perfection of religion. Hari-śauri: Verse 6. Bhūgarbha: He said that he feels very thankful that you've given him such a long darśana . He feels very happy that you've given so much enlightenment in many subjects. He's just passing through with his daughter. He'd like to stay tomorrow to see the installation of the Deities, but he has to go to a Tibetan temple in the south of France. On Saturday he has to be there, so he has to drive, and he said that he's found the Tibetans are also very good devotees. Prabhupāda: Very good. Jaya . (end) Prabhupāda: These are all local fruits? Or imported? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Mostly local. Now we have a lot of local fruits. Prabhupāda: You grow banana also? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, the banana is imported. Parivrājakācārya: From South America, they bring bananas . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Grapes? Grapes you have got. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Grapes, apple. Where is your eldest child? Nandarāṇī: This is Candramukhī. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, I saw you in Los Angeles? Nandarāṇī: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have got two or three girls? Nandarāṇī: Just two. Prabhupāda: Two. Is there arrangement for preparing khicuṛi with green peas? Nandarāṇī: Mung . With mung ? Hari-śauri: No, green peas. Ātreya Ṛṣi: With green peas. Nandarāṇī: With green peas. Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. So make little khicuṛi and curry and okra vegetable. Nandarāṇī: All right. We have chaturi and paratha . Do you want that also? Prabhupāda: Oh, you have already made? Nandarāṇī: But I can make khicuṛi , that's all right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, we can make some khicuṛi . Hari-śauri: Make some khicuṛi , and then whenever you can. Prabhupāda: Oh. I'll take also little paratha . Where is bathroom? Dayānanda: There's another room, for resting. Prabhupāda: For resting. Dayānanda: And you can go out this door, just there and bathroom is on the other side of this resting room. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Let me show you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: This is the key to this cabinet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I put the bag in it. (break) . . . very expensive. Prabhupāda: This is a rented house? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What is the rent? Ātreya Ṛṣi: The rent now it is twelve hundred dollars. But of course everything is now much more expensive. So I was negotiating in New York for better arrangements, because in Iran price is going up and up and up. And I told my company that they should buy one house. Prabhupāda: Here. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. And they have agreed. So there will be, be that house. We will buy something like this for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: This is very nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And also we have also saved some money, we'll buy a temple also in addition to that. Prabhupāda: No, this is very nice. Dayānanda, do you like it? Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is very nice place, private. Everything is so nice. In the winter, what is the temperature? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very cold. Prabhupāda: Very cold. Parivrājakācārya: Yes, it snows. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Like Vṛndāvana. Isn't it like? Parivrājakācārya: It's colder than Vṛndāvana. Hari-śauri: It don't snow in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, I don't think less than fifty. Hari-śauri: It sometimes gets colder, I think. Nowadays anyway. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Here it gets ten, fifteen. Prabhupāda: But there is no snow in Vṛndāvana. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have plenty of snow here. Parivrājakācārya: We're very high. We're six thousand feet above sea level. Pradyumna: We've got everything. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Has it come in? Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: Who has come? Pradyumna: Just Harikeśa and myself. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So everything is clear? Hari-śauri: The luggage and everything is here. I'll go now and see to it. Prabhupāda: Jaya . So I am also very happy. Dayānanda, you are here, and you can have more facilities. You family men, you require some money also. So your present situation is very nice? Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: What they are paying you? Dayānanda: They are paying . . . I bring home about one thousand dollars per month. Prabhupāda: After deducting. Dayānanda: After deducting taxes. Prabhupāda: It is better than USA. You were getting six hundred there? Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are getting more? Why Gargamuni advised you to give up? I chastised him, "Why you have given him such advice? He's a gṛhastha , he must have some money. He has to take care of the children." Anyway, you have got better job now and better service also. Kṛṣṇa has rewarded you for your service. Stick to it. Don't . . . if you like to serve here, you can be permanently settled. No, what is their rules? Dayānanda: It is quite easy, because they need . . . Prabhupāda: Service. Dayānanda: . . . foreigners to come and work here. Prabhupāda: So that is very good. Dayānanda: So they give visas very easily for working. Prabhupāda: Oh. Especially to Americans? Dayānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That's very good opportunity. Bring more Americans and start this movement nicely. Not necessarily that we have to establish a temple. We want to preach our philosophy. That is most important. Bhāgavata*-mārga. There are two ways: bhāgavata-mārga and pāñcarātriki. The bhāgavata-mārga is more important than pāñcarātriki. Pāñcarātriki is Deity worship. So do you meet many intelligent men here? No. Not very many. Dayānanda: Some intelligent. People are working very hard for money, and they're very materialistic. Prabhupāda: That is everywhere in the eastern part of the world. They are after money. Dayānanda: Yes and the foreigners who come here also, they are materialistic also. Prabhupāda: Everywhere materialistic. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye ( BG 7.3). Spiritualistic means siddhi , perfection. Who cares for perfection? Bring money and enjoy. That's all. Who cares for perfection? They do not know what is perfection. They think that you get money, you live comfortably as far as possible, and after death, everything's finished. Is it not? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: This is the philosophy. Who cares to know that there is life after death and better life, better planet, better world? This is not at all good; it is full of miseries. They are driving all day, car, but they do not think it is tiresome. They think it is pleasure. To have a car and drive whole day, they do not feel that it is tiresome. They think, "I have got a car. I'm driving, people are seeing. It is pleasure." Parivrājakācārya: It is madness, how they can enjoy a city like that. *Prabhupāda: But we do not deprecate. We simply say that do whatever you like, but do not forget your real business, self*-realization, ātma-tattvam. Self-realization, that is required. And if we live like cats and dogs and again become cats and dogs and pigs, that is not success. But there is chance if one does not know ātma-tattva. Nature's law will work. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). (background discussion about moving furniture) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So, your son is sleeping? Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is not my son. Prabhupāda: Oh. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is salt, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is watermelon. This is a different kind of melon. You prefer it here? Prabhupāda: This is local product? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Take some? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, please, please, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If you like little salt on it? Harikeśa: Can I have the key? To lock up the passports and . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is a drink, Śrīla Prabhupāda, made of some melon, different melon. Prabhupāda: This is also local? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, that is very local. Is that sweet, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, it is nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It can become very sweet. Sometimes it is very, very sweet. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: (aside to Nandarāṇī's daughters) Candramukhī? Vilāsinī? Prabhupāda: So, very nice. Like bael . In India, like bael . So nice fruits. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can I serve the devotees, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is so nice. You can distribute this also. All the devotees. Do they eat meat very much? Parivrājakācārya: Yes, they are learning. Before ten years ago, they were . . . everyone was very good Muslim, and they would eat a little bit of sheep. But today they are learning the . . . Prabhupāda: Beef. Parivrājakācārya: Beef. Because they think the more they are like Americans, the better they are. But they have so many fruits and vegetables here, the land gives them so many wonderful things, but they think that they must eat meat. Dayānanda: There is an old poem, an old epic poem that we were told about that states that many thousands of years ago the Iranians were all vegetarian. Prabhupāda: It is Āryan culture. Iranian means Āryan. It is a apabhraṁśa of Ārya, Irāya . And they are called Parsis. Parsis still, those who fled away from this place, they are just like Hindu . They have got sacred thread. In India. Parivrājakācārya: They keep a sacred fire. Prabhupāda: Still there are, here? Parivrājakācārya: A few, a few temples here. Prabhupāda: They are fire worshipers, Sūrya . . . (indistinct) . . . out of them. Their marriage ceremony is just like Hindus. (to guests entering) Namaskāra , Hare Kṛṣṇa. Parivrājakācārya: The language is very . . . Prabhupāda: You have taken prasādam ? Ātreya Ṛṣi: You have food? Prasādam ? Mustafa: Yes. Parivrājakācārya: Their whole language here is very similar to Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You can read this also. This is in Sanskrit. (to Iranian student) You understand English? Mustafa: English. Prabhupāda: Very good. Your country is very nice. So nice food, fruits. Mustafa: Yes. Nice to meet you. *Prabhupāda: Formerly, from Kashmir to central Asia, it was known as Bhū*-svarga, especially Kashmir. Bhū-svarga. Dayānanda: Heaven on earth. Prabhupāda: Yes, heaven on the earthly planet. *Parivrājakācārya: We noticed that in one of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam s you mentioned that Kardama Muni had his āśrama . . . Kaśyapa Muni I mean, on the shore of the Caspian Sea, which is just an hour from here by plane—it's ninety kilometers. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, Caspian Sea. (drinking juice) This is made from a kind of fruit. *Nava*-yauvana: Yes, a kind of melon. Prabhupāda: They are saying that the moon is full of dust. And dust is so brilliant? We have to believe this? The rascals, they are making this proposal. Huh? What do you think? Dayānanda: I don't think they know actually what they are talking about, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, actually that is fact. It is similar planet like the sun, but it is surrounded by cold atmosphere, therefore it is so pleasing. And because it is far away from the sun—the distance between moon and earth is more than the distance between the sun and the earth—therefore sun looks bigger and it looks smaller. We are contemplating having a planetarium with electric arrangement. You'll have to work. The whole planetary system is moving from east to west, and the sun, moon and the seven . . . (indistinct) . . . they are up and down. (to child) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. He can speak? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, just a few words. Prabhupāda: Two years? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Almost. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have got any fruit tree in the garden? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Some pear trees, some apple. Prabhupāda: Peach? No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No peach. We used to have a cherry tree, but it died. We also have a pomegranate tree. Prabhupāda: Good pomegranate? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Not very good. Prabhupāda: These boys, do they inquire about something? (coughing heavily) Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Hussein Prabhu has been coming here for . . . Prabhupāda: Bring some spittoon. You can keep it here. They understand English? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They understand English, yes, some English. Hussein Prabhu has been coming here for a few months. He's chanting. He's a very, very pious boy. Before he came here, he was chanting names of God and following the four regulations. Prabhupāda: Very good. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very nice. And he is coming recently. He's also interested. He is a vegetarian, does not eat meat, and he's following the four regulations, and he's starting to chant now. Prabhupāda: And he . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: He's been coming for two, three months. He's chanting sixteen rounds, and as I said, before he came here, he was chanting various names of God as they are prescribed in Koran. And when he saw that we were chanting names of God, he immediately became attracted. He said: "This is right." Because he knows also that from Koran he should chant the names of God. Prabhupāda: Oh. In the Koran chanting is recommended? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, definitely. *Prabhupāda: The more you chant God's name, your heart becomes cleansed. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates as Prabhupāda speaks) Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). So God has many names. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended God's name must be . . . it doesn't matter the language is different. Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktiḥ (CC Antya 20.16). In each name the full power of God is there. Hussein: (speaks in Arabic) *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hussein Prabhu says that his goal in life is to translate your Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, this is Hussein. He's a very, very sincere boy. Prabhupāda: So do it immediately. Somebody, some Arabian student made some translation? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, there was some translations of *Īśopaniṣad* . . . Prabhupāda: Where he is, that boy? Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . into Arabic. He's in Europe. He is Palestinian boy. He is asking how should this translation be done? What is your recommendation, if you have any suggestion? Prabhupāda: Of course, I am not well versed in your language, but you simply, if you understand that English and translate it into Parsi, that will do. As it is, you translate. Don't make any change. Then it will be all right. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates) And when there is difficulty, you can ask Ātreya Ṛṣi. Harikeśa. (pause) Prabhupāda: Where is Harikeśa? Harikeśa? (Ātreya Ṛṣi leaves to find him) Where he is? *Nava*-yauvana: Mustafa asked a question: How to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness in this country? It seems difficult to him, because the people's reaction . . . it's very foreign. The outward appearance of devotees is very strange to them. He wants to know how this philosophy can be spread here. Prabhupāda: The first thing is that what do you mean by Kṛṣṇa. That is to be understood. "Kṛṣṇa" means God. So if you have no objection to chant the name of God, then there is no difference of opinion. Now first of all I may ask you, "What do you mean by God?" You are chanting the holy name of God, and people may ask you, "What do you mean by God?" Because especially nowadays . . . (aside) No, there is matches? Give this. (devotees lighting incense) Come near. So first question will be, "What do you mean by God?" If I, I or anybody, ask you, "What do you mean by God?" Mustafa: I cannot explain, because now . . . Prabhupāda: But that you must explain. If you are chanting the name of God, then you must know what do you mean by God. Mustafa: Mean, when I feel, I will get spiritual, my feeling Prabhupāda: No, no the spiritual, what do you mean by spiritual? Mustafa: Means I put everything is bad and dirty inside, and I feel it's dirty really, and I make it out, all of them. Prabhupāda: What is inside and what is outside? Mustafa: Outside? I don't know what is inside. Prabhupāda: Then you do not know. You do not know outside, inside? Mustafa: When I do wrong, for example. When I do lie, when I do something, when I see wrong. Prabhupāda: Wrong . . . one thing is wrong in my country, and that is right in your country. Just like animal slaughter is wrong according to our Vedic civilization. Unnecessary animal slaughter is forbidden. But in your country or in other Western countries, they kill so many animals. So what is wrong, what is right? Who will decide? Mustafa: That's the reason I don't kill animals and I don't eat meat, for three years now. Prabhupāda: That's very good, very good idea. (Ātreya Ṛṣi explains what Prabhupāda is asking to Mustafa in Persian) When we want God, to understand, we must try to understand what is God, what do you mean by God. The God definition is given in the dictionary . . . what is that? "Supreme being." Ātreya Ṛṣi: Supreme controller? Prabhupāda: "Supreme controller." So how do you understand that supreme controller? What do you mean by supreme controller? In this way we should try to understand what is the idea carried by the word "God." We have got . . . in our Vedic language, we have got definition of God, that, "God" means He must possess all the wealth. Just like in Persia you have got so many wealthy persons, but nobody can claim, even the Shah cannot claim, that he possesses the all the wealth. That is not possible, Persia. Do you follow what I say? (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates throughout) So this is one of the items, that God is the richest, or He possesses all the wealth. Similarly, He possesses all the strength, He possesses all the beauty, He possesses all knowledge, and He is the renouncer also, the most exalted renouncer. Although He possesses so many things, He is renounced. Just like this universe is the property of God, but He has given to you, all the living entity, "Now you wanted to enjoy, enjoy it to your best capacity." He doesn't interfere. "All right, you go on." And we are trying to enjoy this material world to our best capacity. Just like in Iran, you are trying to enjoy by exploiting the oil. Similarly, somebody is exploiting. It is all God's property. He doesn't interfere. "All right, enjoy." This is renouncement. His property, He does not come to interfere. God knows how this universe is made. So many big, big scientists, they are trying to understand what is the constitution, how this universe is made, how it is created. Nobody knows, but He knows. Just like you have got this body, I have got this body, but we do not know everything of this body. I do not know how many hairs are there. Is it not? So, so many things. I am eating, and it is transformed into blood, and it is directed towards brain, towards other parts of the body, and we are working very strong. But we do not know how things are happening, although I am claiming I am this body, "I am my body." But God knows every particular, any . . . anvayād itarataḥ (SB 1.1.1). How the stone is made, He knows. How this flower is colored, He knows. That is called wise, wisdom. Vedāhaṁ sarvam . . . saramam etam. He knows. That is God. He is the possessor of all wealth, all knowledge, all beauty, all strength, all influence. In this way you have to understand God. Hari-śauri: They've brought the prasādam up now or? Prabhupāda: You can bring here. Who is there in the bathroom? Hari-śauri: They're just cleaning it out. They're giving you the big bathroom because it has a Western toilet and a nice shower and separate everything. It's very nice. And we'll use the small one. They're just cleaning it now. If you want, you can use. Prabhupāda: Close this door; otherwise if you come there, it will be disturbance. Harikeśa: Nandarāṇī's making khicuṛi with the peas and okra. Prabhupāda: Okra could be done separately. Let her do independently. Ātreya Ṛṣi: She's doing both. She first mixed it, now she's also making separate. Prabhupāda: Oh. Anyway, let her do it. She was cooking for me in Māyāpur. Harikeśa: I heard you liked it very much. Prabhupāda: Yes. The more you become eager to know God, God will reveal Himself. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates as Prabhupāda speaks) From our side, we should not be stereotyped. People in different sects of religion, they say: "We believe." But they do not want to go further than they believe. That is very difficult. You must be dynamic and progressive, then you will have. I have talked with many sects, especially Christian priests. They will say: "We believe"—no more further than that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Prabhupāda: So knowledge is not like that. Knowledge must be progressive. "We believe there is no soul of the animal"—bās, fixed up. You believe like a rascal, so I shall remain rascal. What is this? We should be progressive. That is wanted. Of course, in the lower stage one may have a type of belief, but if you want more clearly, you must be progressive. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates) According to Vedānta system, the life, human life, is only for inquiring about Brahman: athāto brahma jijñāsā. We shall talk again. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Prabhupāda: These are all local fruits? Or imported? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Mostly local. Now we have a lot of local fruits. Prabhupāda: You grow banana also? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, the banana is imported. Parivrājakācārya: From South America, they bring bananas . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Grapes? Grapes you have got. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Grapes, apple. Where is your eldest child? Nandarāṇī: This is Candramukhī. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, I saw you in Los Angeles? Nandarāṇī: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have got two or three girls? Nandarāṇī: Just two. Prabhupāda: Two. Is there arrangement for preparing khicuṛi with green peas? Nandarāṇī: Mung . With mung ? Hari-śauri: No, green peas. Ātreya Ṛṣi: With green peas. Nandarāṇī: With green peas. Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. So make little khicuṛi and curry and okra vegetable. Nandarāṇī: All right. We have chaturi and paratha . Do you want that also? Prabhupāda: Oh, you have already made? Nandarāṇī: But I can make khicuṛi , that's all right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, we can make some khicuṛi . Hari-śauri: Make some khicuṛi , and then whenever you can. Prabhupāda: Oh. I'll take also little paratha . Where is bathroom? Dayānanda: There's another room, for resting. Prabhupāda: For resting. Dayānanda: And you can go out this door, just there and bathroom is on the other side of this resting room. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Let me show you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: This is the key to this cabinet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I put the bag in it. (break) . . . very expensive. Prabhupāda: This is a rented house? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What is the rent? Ātreya Ṛṣi: The rent now it is twelve hundred dollars. But of course everything is now much more expensive. So I was negotiating in New York for better arrangements, because in Iran price is going up and up and up. And I told my company that they should buy one house. Prabhupāda: Here. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. And they have agreed. So there will be, be that house. We will buy something like this for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: This is very nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And also we have also saved some money, we'll buy a temple also in addition to that. Prabhupāda: No, this is very nice. Dayānanda, do you like it? Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is very nice place, private. Everything is so nice. In the winter, what is the temperature? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very cold. Prabhupāda: Very cold. Parivrājakācārya: Yes, it snows. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Like Vṛndāvana. Isn't it like? Parivrājakācārya: It's colder than Vṛndāvana. Hari-śauri: It don't snow in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, I don't think less than fifty. Hari-śauri: It sometimes gets colder, I think. Nowadays anyway. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Here it gets ten, fifteen. Prabhupāda: But there is no snow in Vṛndāvana. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have plenty of snow here. Parivrājakācārya: We're very high. We're six thousand feet above sea level. Pradyumna: We've got everything. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Has it come in? Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: Who has come? Pradyumna: Just Harikeśa and myself. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So everything is clear? Hari-śauri: The luggage and everything is here. I'll go now and see to it. Prabhupāda: Jaya . So I am also very happy. Dayānanda, you are here, and you can have more facilities. You family men, you require some money also. So your present situation is very nice? Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: What they are paying you? Dayānanda: They are paying . . . I bring home about one thousand dollars per month. Prabhupāda: After deducting. Dayānanda: After deducting taxes. Prabhupāda: It is better than USA. You were getting six hundred there? Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are getting more? Why Gargamuni advised you to give up? I chastised him, "Why you have given him such advice? He's a gṛhastha , he must have some money. He has to take care of the children." Anyway, you have got better job now and better service also. Kṛṣṇa has rewarded you for your service. Stick to it. Don't . . . if you like to serve here, you can be permanently settled. No, what is their rules? Dayānanda: It is quite easy, because they need . . . Prabhupāda: Service. Dayānanda: . . . foreigners to come and work here. Prabhupāda: So that is very good. Dayānanda: So they give visas very easily for working. Prabhupāda: Oh. Especially to Americans? Dayānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That's very good opportunity. Bring more Americans and start this movement nicely. Not necessarily that we have to establish a temple. We want to preach our philosophy. That is most important. Bhāgavata*-mārga. There are two ways: bhāgavata-mārga and pāñcarātriki. The bhāgavata-mārga is more important than pāñcarātriki. Pāñcarātriki is Deity worship. So do you meet many intelligent men here? No. Not very many. Dayānanda: Some intelligent. People are working very hard for money, and they're very materialistic. Prabhupāda: That is everywhere in the eastern part of the world. They are after money. Dayānanda: Yes and the foreigners who come here also, they are materialistic also. Prabhupāda: Everywhere materialistic. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye ( BG 7.3). Spiritualistic means siddhi , perfection. Who cares for perfection? Bring money and enjoy. That's all. Who cares for perfection? They do not know what is perfection. They think that you get money, you live comfortably as far as possible, and after death, everything's finished. Is it not? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: This is the philosophy. Who cares to know that there is life after death and better life, better planet, better world? This is not at all good; it is full of miseries. They are driving all day, car, but they do not think it is tiresome. They think it is pleasure. To have a car and drive whole day, they do not feel that it is tiresome. They think, "I have got a car. I'm driving, people are seeing. It is pleasure." Parivrājakācārya: It is madness, how they can enjoy a city like that. *Prabhupāda: But we do not deprecate. We simply say that do whatever you like, but do not forget your real business, self*-realization, ātma-tattvam. Self-realization, that is required. And if we live like cats and dogs and again become cats and dogs and pigs, that is not success. But there is chance if one does not know ātma-tattva. Nature's law will work. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). (background discussion about moving furniture) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So, your son is sleeping? Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is not my son. Prabhupāda: Oh. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is salt, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is watermelon. This is a different kind of melon. You prefer it here? Prabhupāda: This is local product? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Take some? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, please, please, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If you like little salt on it? Harikeśa: Can I have the key? To lock up the passports and . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is a drink, Śrīla Prabhupāda, made of some melon, different melon. Prabhupāda: This is also local? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, that is very local. Is that sweet, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, it is nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It can become very sweet. Sometimes it is very, very sweet. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: (aside to Nandarāṇī's daughters) Candramukhī? Vilāsinī? Prabhupāda: So, very nice. Like bael . In India, like bael . So nice fruits. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can I serve the devotees, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is so nice. You can distribute this also. All the devotees. Do they eat meat very much? Parivrājakācārya: Yes, they are learning. Before ten years ago, they were . . . everyone was very good Muslim, and they would eat a little bit of sheep. But today they are learning the . . . Prabhupāda: Beef. Parivrājakācārya: Beef. Because they think the more they are like Americans, the better they are. But they have so many fruits and vegetables here, the land gives them so many wonderful things, but they think that they must eat meat. Dayānanda: There is an old poem, an old epic poem that we were told about that states that many thousands of years ago the Iranians were all vegetarian. Prabhupāda: It is Āryan culture. Iranian means Āryan. It is a apabhraṁśa of Ārya, Irāya . And they are called Parsis. Parsis still, those who fled away from this place, they are just like Hindu . They have got sacred thread. In India. Parivrājakācārya: They keep a sacred fire. Prabhupāda: Still there are, here? Parivrājakācārya: A few, a few temples here. Prabhupāda: They are fire worshipers, Sūrya . . . (indistinct) . . . out of them. Their marriage ceremony is just like Hindus. (to guests entering) Namaskāra , Hare Kṛṣṇa. Parivrājakācārya: The language is very . . . Prabhupāda: You have taken prasādam ? Ātreya Ṛṣi: You have food? Prasādam ? Mustafa: Yes. Parivrājakācārya: Their whole language here is very similar to Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You can read this also. This is in Sanskrit. (to Iranian student) You understand English? Mustafa: English. Prabhupāda: Very good. Your country is very nice. So nice food, fruits. Mustafa: Yes. Nice to meet you. *Prabhupāda: Formerly, from Kashmir to central Asia, it was known as Bhū*-svarga, especially Kashmir. Bhū-svarga. Dayānanda: Heaven on earth. Prabhupāda: Yes, heaven on the earthly planet. *Parivrājakācārya: We noticed that in one of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam s you mentioned that Kardama Muni had his āśrama . . . Kaśyapa Muni I mean, on the shore of the Caspian Sea, which is just an hour from here by plane—it's ninety kilometers. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, Caspian Sea. (drinking juice) This is made from a kind of fruit. *Nava*-yauvana: Yes, a kind of melon. Prabhupāda: They are saying that the moon is full of dust. And dust is so brilliant? We have to believe this? The rascals, they are making this proposal. Huh? What do you think? Dayānanda: I don't think they know actually what they are talking about, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, actually that is fact. It is similar planet like the sun, but it is surrounded by cold atmosphere, therefore it is so pleasing. And because it is far away from the sun—the distance between moon and earth is more than the distance between the sun and the earth—therefore sun looks bigger and it looks smaller. We are contemplating having a planetarium with electric arrangement. You'll have to work. The whole planetary system is moving from east to west, and the sun, moon and the seven . . . (indistinct) . . . they are up and down. (to child) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. He can speak? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, just a few words. Prabhupāda: Two years? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Almost. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have got any fruit tree in the garden? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Some pear trees, some apple. Prabhupāda: Peach? No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No peach. We used to have a cherry tree, but it died. We also have a pomegranate tree. Prabhupāda: Good pomegranate? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Not very good. Prabhupāda: These boys, do they inquire about something? (coughing heavily) Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Hussein Prabhu has been coming here for . . . Prabhupāda: Bring some spittoon. You can keep it here. They understand English? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They understand English, yes, some English. Hussein Prabhu has been coming here for a few months. He's chanting. He's a very, very pious boy. Before he came here, he was chanting names of God and following the four regulations. Prabhupāda: Very good. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very nice. And he is coming recently. He's also interested. He is a vegetarian, does not eat meat, and he's following the four regulations, and he's starting to chant now. Prabhupāda: And he . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: He's been coming for two, three months. He's chanting sixteen rounds, and as I said, before he came here, he was chanting various names of God as they are prescribed in Koran. And when he saw that we were chanting names of God, he immediately became attracted. He said: "This is right." Because he knows also that from Koran he should chant the names of God. Prabhupāda: Oh. In the Koran chanting is recommended? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, definitely. *Prabhupāda: The more you chant God's name, your heart becomes cleansed. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates as Prabhupāda speaks) Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). So God has many names. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended God's name must be . . . it doesn't matter the language is different. Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktiḥ (CC Antya 20.16). In each name the full power of God is there. Hussein: (speaks in Arabic) *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hussein Prabhu says that his goal in life is to translate your Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, this is Hussein. He's a very, very sincere boy. Prabhupāda: So do it immediately. Somebody, some Arabian student made some translation? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, there was some translations of *Īśopaniṣad* . . . Prabhupāda: Where he is, that boy? Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . into Arabic. He's in Europe. He is Palestinian boy. He is asking how should this translation be done? What is your recommendation, if you have any suggestion? Prabhupāda: Of course, I am not well versed in your language, but you simply, if you understand that English and translate it into Parsi, that will do. As it is, you translate. Don't make any change. Then it will be all right. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates) And when there is difficulty, you can ask Ātreya Ṛṣi. Harikeśa. (pause) Prabhupāda: Where is Harikeśa? Harikeśa? (Ātreya Ṛṣi leaves to find him) Where he is? *Nava*-yauvana: Mustafa asked a question: How to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness in this country? It seems difficult to him, because the people's reaction . . . it's very foreign. The outward appearance of devotees is very strange to them. He wants to know how this philosophy can be spread here. Prabhupāda: The first thing is that what do you mean by Kṛṣṇa. That is to be understood. "Kṛṣṇa" means God. So if you have no objection to chant the name of God, then there is no difference of opinion. Now first of all I may ask you, "What do you mean by God?" You are chanting the holy name of God, and people may ask you, "What do you mean by God?" Because especially nowadays . . . (aside) No, there is matches? Give this. (devotees lighting incense) Come near. So first question will be, "What do you mean by God?" If I, I or anybody, ask you, "What do you mean by God?" Mustafa: I cannot explain, because now . . . Prabhupāda: But that you must explain. If you are chanting the name of God, then you must know what do you mean by God. Mustafa: Mean, when I feel, I will get spiritual, my feeling Prabhupāda: No, no the spiritual, what do you mean by spiritual? Mustafa: Means I put everything is bad and dirty inside, and I feel it's dirty really, and I make it out, all of them. Prabhupāda: What is inside and what is outside? Mustafa: Outside? I don't know what is inside. Prabhupāda: Then you do not know. You do not know outside, inside? Mustafa: When I do wrong, for example. When I do lie, when I do something, when I see wrong. Prabhupāda: Wrong . . . one thing is wrong in my country, and that is right in your country. Just like animal slaughter is wrong according to our Vedic civilization. Unnecessary animal slaughter is forbidden. But in your country or in other Western countries, they kill so many animals. So what is wrong, what is right? Who will decide? Mustafa: That's the reason I don't kill animals and I don't eat meat, for three years now. Prabhupāda: That's very good, very good idea. (Ātreya Ṛṣi explains what Prabhupāda is asking to Mustafa in Persian) When we want God, to understand, we must try to understand what is God, what do you mean by God. The God definition is given in the dictionary . . . what is that? "Supreme being." Ātreya Ṛṣi: Supreme controller? Prabhupāda: "Supreme controller." So how do you understand that supreme controller? What do you mean by supreme controller? In this way we should try to understand what is the idea carried by the word "God." We have got . . . in our Vedic language, we have got definition of God, that, "God" means He must possess all the wealth. Just like in Persia you have got so many wealthy persons, but nobody can claim, even the Shah cannot claim, that he possesses the all the wealth. That is not possible, Persia. Do you follow what I say? (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates throughout) So this is one of the items, that God is the richest, or He possesses all the wealth. Similarly, He possesses all the strength, He possesses all the beauty, He possesses all knowledge, and He is the renouncer also, the most exalted renouncer. Although He possesses so many things, He is renounced. Just like this universe is the property of God, but He has given to you, all the living entity, "Now you wanted to enjoy, enjoy it to your best capacity." He doesn't interfere. "All right, you go on." And we are trying to enjoy this material world to our best capacity. Just like in Iran, you are trying to enjoy by exploiting the oil. Similarly, somebody is exploiting. It is all God's property. He doesn't interfere. "All right, enjoy." This is renouncement. His property, He does not come to interfere. God knows how this universe is made. So many big, big scientists, they are trying to understand what is the constitution, how this universe is made, how it is created. Nobody knows, but He knows. Just like you have got this body, I have got this body, but we do not know everything of this body. I do not know how many hairs are there. Is it not? So, so many things. I am eating, and it is transformed into blood, and it is directed towards brain, towards other parts of the body, and we are working very strong. But we do not know how things are happening, although I am claiming I am this body, "I am my body." But God knows every particular, any . . . anvayād itarataḥ (SB 1.1.1). How the stone is made, He knows. How this flower is colored, He knows. That is called wise, wisdom. Vedāhaṁ sarvam . . . saramam etam. He knows. That is God. He is the possessor of all wealth, all knowledge, all beauty, all strength, all influence. In this way you have to understand God. Hari-śauri: They've brought the prasādam up now or? Prabhupāda: You can bring here. Who is there in the bathroom? Hari-śauri: They're just cleaning it out. They're giving you the big bathroom because it has a Western toilet and a nice shower and separate everything. It's very nice. And we'll use the small one. They're just cleaning it now. If you want, you can use. Prabhupāda: Close this door; otherwise if you come there, it will be disturbance. Harikeśa: Nandarāṇī's making khicuṛi with the peas and okra. Prabhupāda: Okra could be done separately. Let her do independently. Ātreya Ṛṣi: She's doing both. She first mixed it, now she's also making separate. Prabhupāda: Oh. Anyway, let her do it. She was cooking for me in Māyāpur. Harikeśa: I heard you liked it very much. Prabhupāda: Yes. The more you become eager to know God, God will reveal Himself. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates as Prabhupāda speaks) From our side, we should not be stereotyped. People in different sects of religion, they say: "We believe." But they do not want to go further than they believe. That is very difficult. You must be dynamic and progressive, then you will have. I have talked with many sects, especially Christian priests. They will say: "We believe"—no more further than that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Prabhupāda: So knowledge is not like that. Knowledge must be progressive. "We believe there is no soul of the animal"—bās, fixed up. You believe like a rascal, so I shall remain rascal. What is this? We should be progressive. That is wanted. Of course, in the lower stage one may have a type of belief, but if you want more clearly, you must be progressive. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates) According to Vedānta system, the life, human life, is only for inquiring about Brahman: athāto brahma jijñāsā. We shall talk again. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Ātreya Ṛṣi: If there are planets, Śrīla Prabhupāda, like the sun planet, where . . . Prabhupāda: We get information from the śāstra , every planet is full of life. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, that there is life in um, some planets. *Prabhupāda: Jana*-kīrṇa , this very word is used, jana-kīrṇa , "congested with life." And we have got description, this loka , this loka , this loka is fighting sometimes with other loka , or that . . . everything is description there. There is milk ocean, there is this ocean, that ocean, varieties of. So if we have to take these rascals' version—they're simply rogues—then the whole śāstra becomes false. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The point in the śāstra is that every . . . Prabhupāda: And they will advertise that these description in the śāstras , they are all mythology. Of course, this kind of bluffing cannot go, because suppose this Mars expedition becomes a failure, like that, the same . . . it will be failure. So next time, if they propose, I think people will be hesitant to go. Simply bringing people rocks and sands, without any utility, after spending so much money. How long they can repeat this, "Yes, we went to this planet, rocks. We went to this—rocks." So we see variety. If you . . . the so many luminaries, simply rocks and sands? The moon is full of rocks, and it's so illuminating? Whole universe is illuminated so nice, moonshine. So many stars illuminating, and they're rocks and sand? We have to believe it? Jñānagamya: They are saying there is life on Mars. They are seeing microbes, small little living entities. They are detecting these with their machines. So they are seeing, there is some life. Prabhupāda: Microbes? Jñānagamya: Microbe, you know, like microscopic . . . *Prabhupāda: Why they can see only microbes, not a fully grown*-up human being? Jñānagamya: No, they are detecting through gas. They feed the microbes, and then microbes give off evacuation . . . Prabhupāda: How they can see? Suppose you see from a distant place, this planet. So how you can see within water? You can take photograph of the water, but how you can take photograph within the water? So what is the value of their taking photograph? Does the photograph takes the picture within the water? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of such photograph? Jñānagamya: But they are not detecting with photographs, they are detecting with chemicals. Prabhupāda: What . . . (indistinct) . . . chemical? Jñānagamya: They say the chemicals are giving off gases when they are feeding the earth. They take the ground from Mars . . . Prabhupāda: Just see so many bogus words they manufacture to make believe. Because they are scientist, they'll talk all big, big words which we cannot understand. So you cannot argue. (talks gibberish) Like that. By common sense question, that they are simply finding out rocks and sand, and again they are saying somebody has bombed. The first . . . (coughing) If there is bomb, then there is fight; so if there is fight, there must be human being. *Harikeśa: He was the one that told me about that, about the canyon and the bombed*-out place. Jñānagamya: Yes, I was working for USIS, US Information Service, and I had a commission to paint a large picture of this Mars landing ship, and they had information coming back that they were finding a long blockhouse with a big crater in the center, like a building that had been bombed. Fourteen kilometer crater. They had a picture like that. It appeared to be a building. But they are all cheaters. I used to live in Florida where they send up these . . . they are all drunkards. They drink alcohol, very unserious. Prabhupāda: Oh, then they can manufacture. All drunkards, they are in charge of this fighting. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, if there are some visitors, can they come up? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Will we have readings, or would you like to talk with them? Prabhupāda: Let them come, we shall see. My point is, why they do not see any other spot? Only these spots are visible, where there are rocks. They say Howrah station is closed. No sane man will believe that, that Howrah station is closed. Jñānagamya: They do not want to upset the illusion that they are God, that they are the only ones in the universe. So if they find out there is life on another planet, they will not like it. If there is higher life somewhere else, they will not like that. They are always in competition. Prabhupāda: And all the higher lives are in Europe and America. Especially in America, eh? That is their mania. They do not like that there may be higher lives, you said. They like it that there may not be any higher life. That is their preconception. Jñānagamya: Yes. This is the highest here, cannot be any higher. They will not accept. Prabhupāda: Just see how much biased they are. *Jñānagamya: They cannot accept another philosophy. They will not accept philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā because it is from another country. They do not like that. Prabhupāda: Ah, now you can see their attitude. *Jñānagamya: So it is very good. On the abridged Bhagavad*-gītā we have Americans, Emerson and Thoreau, saying this is a wonderful book. That is very good, that is very impressive to Americans. They will accept if some great Americans have said. *Prabhupāda: That was my policy from the very beginning, that if the Americans accept, then my mission will be successful. And that is being done gradually, and I am insisting that preach in America vigorously. If America accept, then whole world will accept. That's a fact. Anywhere, although America may be fallen, the ideal is American, everywhere. Because they have got money. Kali*-yuga means money. If you have got money, then you have got culture, you have got education, you have got everything. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Formerly, they were attached, family, aristocracy, culture, education. Nowadays there is no such thing. Get money and you get everything. It is not? Somehow or other, if you have got control over money then you have got everything. Bring that black Bhāgavata . What is that sound coming? There is goat? Parivrājakācārya: I think a lamb, sheep. Prabhupāda: Lamb. Parivrājakācārya: Yes. Prabhupāda: They keep lambs for . . .? Parivrājakācārya: For sacrificing. Prabhupāda: They sacrifice at home? Parivrājakācārya: The Koran says that you should sacrifice the animal at home, with his head pointing toward Mecca. Prabhupāda: Huh? Parivrājakācārya: With the head of the animal towards Mecca. Prabhupāda: Mecca, oh. Parivrājakācārya: And you let the blood of the animal flow toward Mecca, and then you can eat an animal. So they keep many sheep here just for that purpose. Prabhupāda: Oh. So at least they do not recommend to purchase from the slaughterhouse. That is also good. Jñānagamya: But they have slaughterhouse. *Parivrājakācārya: But the Koran restricts meat*-eating. Prabhupāda: It is restriction. Parivrājakācārya: Yes. So this is what we explain—we say if it is good, then why is it restricted? Prabhupāda: That is good explanation. What do they say? Parivrājakācārya: They say, well, Muhammad did it. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But this is restriction. There is light in the veranda? Jñānagamya: Yes, there is light. Yes. Prabhupāda: So let us go so that you can sit comfortably. You can take this little pillow. Parivrājakācārya: Would you like a glass of water, Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That janma*-acarana , that Twelfth Canto, Third Chapter. I shall like to sit down . . . (indistinct) Parivrājakācārya: Is that cushion all right? Prabhupāda: Now in the beginning . . . Pradyumna: The beginning of Third Chapter? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: The Third Chapter begins, dṛṣṭvātmani jaye vyagrān . That's Third Chapter. Prabhupāda: Second Chapter. *Pradyumna: Second Chapter, tataś cānu*-dinaṁ dharmaḥ. Prabhupāda: Ah. Pradyumna: It says carma ? Cara ? Prabhupāda: Dharmaḥ cara . Pradyumna: Oh. Prabhupāda: Now you begin that. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Vittam eva , that's it. Vittam eva ? *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ Prabhupāda: Ah. Vittam means money. So if you have got money, then you are coming from high family. There is no consideration of Brahmin, kṣatriya. If you have got money, then you are everything. Vittam eva hi ? *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . *Prabhupāda: Ah. Janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ. That is practical, we see. If you have got money, then people will come to you, "Oh, you are so learned, you are so qualified." Just like George, or John Lennon. What qualification they have got? But people will go there and take them as very highly learned and scholar and everything. The press reporters take their opinion. But what is their qualification? The qualification, by selling some records they have got money, that's all. What is that qualification? Now of course, they are coming to—George at least—coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, from qualification point of view, they are not learned, educated in university, or they have got any spiritual asset, born Brahmin family, nothing. Simply money. We also go and flatter them to get some money. (laughs) So this is Kali-yuga. Vittam eva. If you have got money, then you have got everything. Therefore people are after so much money, after money. Vittam eva , hmm? Read that? Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: dharma*-nyāya . In India we have seen that you bribe the brāhmaṇas and they'll give decision in your favor. And it is experienced by everyone. In the law court you bribe even the high-court judge, he'll give judgment in your . . . that is proven. One big judge—not now, at least fifty years ago, or more than that—his business was to take bribe, high-court judge, very learned judge. He was asked. He'll give judgement if you give him ten thousand rupees. So other brother high-court judges, they knew it. So in one case he was just arranging for this, and the chief justice called him that, "You immediately resign and go home, otherwise this arrangement you have made, it will be exposed." So he had no other alternative. He immediately resigned, and on some plea like "My heart is palpitating," so in this way he left the court, and then he was never allowed again. And when his friends asked him that "Why you are doing this?" so he said, "What can I do? I have got at least ten thousand rupees' expenditure per month and I get only four thousand." That was his . . . he was very able lawyer. By private practice he was earning more, but this practice . . . and nowadays it has come to, at least in India, anywhere you go, and bribe, and you get a favorable decision. (guests arrive) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall be sitting inside or here? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Wherever you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I can like anywhere. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is good, this is good. Prabhupāda: But these gentlemen? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They will be . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Sit down. So let them come near; our men may go there. You can sit down. Let them come forward. (discussion as guests change places) Take, give them. Yes. You can give room light also. Jñānagamya: Inside. Inside the room. Prabhupāda: That's it. So, there is introduction? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Hamidi. He's a friend of mine at work, and he's very much is interested in both Indian and Iranian spiritual life, in culture as it is. And this is Peter. He has been coming here on Fridays. Prabhupāda: He's American? Peter: English. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. And he's come and taken prasādam , and we talk to him sometimes. Jñānagamya: He offers pūjā to Lord Buddha. He's worshiping Lord Buddha. He has an altar. Prabhupāda: The other boy? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Siva, Mr. Siva from Malaysia. He's Hindu, I believe. And he's recently come to visit us. Next is Dr. Rulf, he is from Holland. He is an economist, and he is working here, and we have . . . I've been acquainted with him through business. And that is Reza. He has been coming here for a long time, he's been chanting. Prabhupāda: He's trying to be . . . (indistinct) . . . both? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So Iranian spiritual culture and Indian spiritual culture, you told me? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So first of all, what is spiritual culture? Mr. Hamidi: Sufism. Prabhupāda: No, not . . . just like gold. Mr. Hamidi: Oh, the gold . . . Prabhupāda: I'll explain. Gold, either in Iran or in India, gold is gold. You cannot say "Iranian gold" or "Indian gold." That is not possible. Similarly, when you says: "Iranian spiritual culture" and "Indian spiritual culture," the common point is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture is one. It cannot be Iranian, Indian, or anywhere belonging to some sycophant. Just like this moon. This moon is now on Iran. But that does not mean it's Iranian moon. Or the sun, it does not mean Iranian sun. Moon is one. Either in India or in Iran, the moon is moon. You cannot say "Iranian moon" or "Indian moon." So spiritual culture is one, and material culture is one. Therefore I'm asking, "What do you mean by spiritual culture?" That is my question. Then we shall consider whether it is Iranian or Indian or . . . what is your idea of spiritual culture? Mr. Hamidi: Of course, I believe that they're all the same, but . . . Prabhupāda: No, same . . . but you must explain at least. I want to know that how far you have understood spiritual culture as it is. That is my question. Mr. Hamidi: Well, of course, it is very difficult to differentiate. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is difficult. Practically you do not know what is spiritual culture. That is a fact. So first of all, you must try to understand what is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture means . . . there are two things within our experience: matter and spirit. So matter is this body, and spirit is the soul within the body. Without spirit, this material body has no value. That we experience every day. When a man is dead, we take it, "Now the body is useless. Throw it away." Therefore the body is important so long the spirit soul is there. And that is spirit. And when we study that spirit soul, that is the beginning of spiritual culture. If you have no idea of what is that spirit, then there is no question of spiritual culture. With this body we cannot make any progress of spiritual culture. That is not possible. The body is matter. They're explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , antavanta ime dehā . Bring Bhagavad-gītā . Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ . So try to understand what is spirit, what is matter. Pradyumna: Translation: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction; therefore, fight, O descendant of Bharata." Prabhupāda: Only the material body is subject to destruction. Eh? Pradyumna: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction." Prabhupāda: Yes, the body's destructible, but the spirit soul is not destructible. When you understand this point, then we understand what is spirit, and then spiritual culture begins. Without being convinced of this spirit soul, there is no question of spiritual culture. So the spirit soul is described as eternal. And the proof is given, eternity. Just like there are so many children. They'll grow up from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood. The body is changing. This is very practical. But the spirit soul is there, the same spirit soul which was within the womb of the mother in a small body, then coming out of the mother's womb. The same spirit soul is there, but the body is different. In this way, the body is being situated in different status, but we know that the proprietor of the body is the same. Is there any difficulty to understand? Anyone? The body is changing, that's a fact. You are young man. You'll have to become an old man like me. That means body will change. But so far you are concerned, you are the same. So, the body changes and the spirit soul remains the same. This is to be understood first of all. What is the difficulty? First of all, you must distinguish what is spirit, what is matter. Material culture means this body is there, it requires some necessities. The body must be given something to eat. Is it not? Eating? Then the body must be given some rest, sleeping, for which we require some apartment, some place. Not we, but also even the animals, birds, they have got their nest, or the animal has got some hole or something. So eating, sleeping, and some sense gratification, sex. These are bodily necessities. But when you understand what is spirit, then we must try to find out what is spiritual necessities. That is spiritual culture. You cannot go on with the bodily culture as spiritual culture. That is a mistake. Spiritual culture is different from the bodily culture. And when we understand it, then there is no question of "Iranian spiritual culture" or "Indian spiritual culture." Spiritual culture is one, as bodily culture is also one. It does not mean that only Indians eat and the Iranians do not eat. The Iranians also eat, because they're bodily necessities. Similarly, spiritual culture also, there is some necessities which is equally needed by the Iranians, by Americans, by Indians. It is not . . . just like when we say that the child grows to become a boy. This is not applicable only to the Indians or Iranians. It is applicable to everyone. Child grows everywhere. You cannot say this is Indian or Iranian. It everywhere. So if we understand what is spiritual culture what is material culture, then there is no question of Iranian or Indian or English or American. Spiritual culture is the same everywhere. So any question on this point? Any difficulty to understand? (pause) Prabhupāda: Spiritual culture or material culture, it is one and the same everywhere. There cannot be any difference. Materially, we want to cover this body, some dress. Everyone has got dress. You cannot say this is Iranian dress or it is Indian dress. Dress is dress, that's all. So any question on this point? Mr. Hamidi: Isn't it the approach which makes it different? Prabhupāda: This is the approach, that first of all you distinguish what is matter, what is spirit. This is the approach. Mr. Hamidi: Well, perhaps, the spiritual culture, what we mean by that, all the rituals, all the different approach . . . Prabhupāda: No, rituals, we shall come later on. First of all, let us understand what is matter, what is spirit. Unless we understand what is matter and what is spirit, there is no question of spiritual culture. Then you'll be misguided. By material culture, you will pass on as spiritual culture. And that is going on. (pause) Jñānagamya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the goal once one understands what is spirit and what is matter? What is the goal past that? Prabhupāda: Goal is there, because spirit is important. Without spirit, matter has no value. This is a material box, but because it has no spirit, it has no value. It has value, comparatively, but not as valuable as a human being because there is no spirit. You can move, if you like; you can go immediately. But this, for many thousands of years it will lie down here. It cannot move, because there is no spirit. Therefore spirit is important. So this distinction is possible to understand in the human form of body. What is the distinction between a human being or a living man and this box? The distinction is that the living being has the spirit soul within and the box has no spirit soul within. Now if we take care of this box outwardly, that we should take; similarly if you take care of the body only, then where is spiritual culture? If you take care of the four principles of bodily necessities—eating, sleeping and sex and defense—then where is spiritual culture? The aim should be spiritual culture, at least for human being. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand what is the distinction between spirit and soul, er, spirit and matter, but a human being can understand that, "This is spiritual side; this is material side. The spiritual side is important." Therefore the goal is how to understand the spiritual side. (break) That is the goal. If we don't cultivate the spiritual side, simply we take care of the bodily side, then we remain animals. And because people are taking only care for the body, this is animal civilization. Human civilization means to take care of the spiritual side. If there is no such attempt to take care of the spiritual side, simply for the material side, then we are no better than the animals. Because they cannot take any care of the spiritual side; they can take care of the material side. Peter: Is the soul dependent upon the body for its existence? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Soul is dependent? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Upon the body for existence. Prabhupāda: Yes. At the present moment, the soul is dependent on the material body because he has no spiritual culture. Just like we Indians, we were under the British rule. So long there was no national movement, they remained dependent on the Britishers. But as soon as there was national movement, they became independent. This is a crude example. Similarly, because we have no spiritual cultivation, we are dependent on this material body. Actually, the soul is not dependent on the body. It has become so under certain condition: because he's thinking that he is this body. They have been described as mūḍha. Mūḍha is an ass. Mūḍha means ass. So I do not know what it is here. In India the asses are kept by the washerman. The washerman loads tons of cloth on the back of the ass to take it to the waterside, and again he brings back to the washerman shop, and the washerman gives a morsel of grass, little, and he eats the grass and stands there to carry the tons of load, thinking that he's dependent on the washerman. He has no intelligence that, "The grass can be had anywhere. Why I am dependent on this washerman to carry so much load?" Lack of knowledge. Similarly, we are dependent on this body for lack of spiritual knowledge. As soon as he'll be enlightened by spiritual knowledge, then no more dependence. Therefore it is needed. Otherwise, he'll remain like an ass, perpetually dependent on the washerman. Mūḍha . We are thinking that without this body we cannot live. No. That is not the fact. We can live independently of this body. But our present position, because we have no spiritual culture, we are thinking that we are dependent on this body. Actually, we are not dependent. That will be revealed the more you advance in spiritual culture. What was his question before? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is your question satisfied? Peter: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: (referring to something in room) It is something like gum? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Does it require change? No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Change? Yes. Prabhupāda: No, I have got it filled in my . . . (indistinct) Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, it's finished after a while. Just twenty minutes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Then I shall put another? Dependence for twenty minutes. That is my dependence, for twenty minutes or twenty years or twenty millions of years. There are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty minutes. And there are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty years. And there are many animals who depend on the body for twenty millions of years. It is a question of proportion. But actually the spirit soul is not dependent on any type of body twenty minutes or twenty years and twenty millions of years. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Find out this. Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendent nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: Somebody else? Ātreya Ṛṣi: There are some guests coming. (background discussion as guests move around) Prabhupāda: Come forward. No, let them come in. So whether these gentlemen's questions are answered? If they have got any doubt, we can . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Through association they will ask more questions. Prabhupāda: What is that verse? Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: So this is the process of becoming independent of the material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is the process. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to make one independent of this material body. Any other questions? Then bring my beads. (long pause) Prabhupāda: My question is whether you like to remain dependent on this material body. Hmm? If you can live spiritually independent, whether you should remain dependent on this material body, and whether to remain dependent on this material body is happy or it is distress? What is your realization? To remain dependent on this material body, is it very good or is it troublesome, huh? Peter: Suffering. Prabhupāda: Suffering, very good. If you remain dependent on this material body, then suffering. So why don't you become independent? That is the next question. Peter: Attachment. Prabhupāda: Attachment, maybe. That is not a very important thing. But if there is a process, how to become independent of this body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. Just like a man suffering from illness—attachment or no attachment, he's now suffering from that illness—but he has put himself into hospitalization under some physician. So that process will cure him, and he'll not suffer from this disease. That is the hope. Or that is the fact. Similarly, circumstantially, we may be dependent on this material body, but if there is a process how we can become independent of the body, why should we not take it? The same example: If a man is diseased, he's captured by the disease. Attachment or no attachment, it is difficult. But he must put himself under treatment so that he can be detached from it. That is intelligence. "I am caught by the disease. So let me suffer without any treatment," that is not intelligence. I must take the process of treatment by which . . . that is explained there, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Take this treatment so that after giving up this body you'll not have any more material body. And as soon as you become free from this material body, there is no suffering. But as soon as you get material body, you must suffer. So if there is way and means to avoid this material body, and remain in our original, spiritual body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. And is very simple thing. (aside) Read it again. Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities, does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: Purport? *Pradyumna: "The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the sixth verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage, and therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body. Such liberation of the living entity from material bondage is not at all easy. The impersonalists and the yogīs attain liberation only after much trouble and many, many births. Even then, the liberation they achieve, merging into the impersonal brahma*-jyotir of the Lord, is only partial, and there's the risk of returning again to this material world. But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning again to this material world. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated that the Lord has many, many forms and incarnations: advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (BS 5.33). Although there are many transcendental forms of the Lord, they are still one and the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. One has to understand this fact with conviction, although it is incomprehensible to mundane scholars and empiric philosophers. As stated in the Vedas :" "The one Supreme Personality of Godhead is eternally engaged in many, many transcendental forms in relationships with His unalloyed devotees.' This Vedic version is confirmed in this verse of the *Gītā* personally by the Lord. He who accepts this truth on the strength of the authority of the *Vedas* and of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and who does not waste time in philosophical speculations, attains the highest perfectional stage of liberation. Simply by accepting this truth on faith, one can, without a doubt, attain liberation. The Vedic version, tat tvam asi , is actually applied in this case. Anyone who understands Lord Kṛṣṇa to be the Supreme, or who says unto the Lord, 'You are the Supreme Brahman, the Personality of Godhead,' is certainly liberated instantly, and consequently his entrance into the transcendental association of the Lord is guaranteed. In other words, such a faithful devotee of the Lord attains perfection, and this is confirmed by the following Vedic assertion:" *"One can attain the perfect stage of liberation from birth and death simply by knowing the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no alternative, because anyone who does not understand Lord Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is surely in the mode of ignorance. Consequently he will not attain salvation simply, so to speak, by licking the outer surface of the bottle of honey, or by interpreting the Bhagavad*-gītā according to mundane scholarship. Such empiric philosophers may assume many important roles in the material world, but they are not necessarily eligible for liberation. Such puffed-up mundane scholars have to wait for the causeless mercy of the devotee of the Lord. One should therefore cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness with faith and knowledge, and in this way attain perfection." Prabhupāda: So if there is some process to become independent of this material body, why should we not accept? What is the objection? (doorbell sounds) If somebody's suffering from some disease and if there is process of curing it, why one should not take it? (long pause) Prabhupāda: So your friends' questions and answers are welcome. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They just came to listen, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, they must be satisfied. (break) Ātreya Ṛṣi: The young man who just came is Terry Graham. He'd come to see you two years ago when you were here. Prabhupāda: Oh, jaya . Ātreya Ṛṣi: He's a journalist. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I remember. So he has got any question? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Terry, do you have any questions? Terry: No. (long pause) *Terry: I have a question about this particular age. Where the world seems to be dividing itself between two kinds of materialists: the one which pays lip service to spiritual precedents but really devotes itself to self*-aggrandizement, and the other, which establishes an atheistic doctrine in the name of moral struggle with that greedy self-aggrandizement. In fact, this atheistic moral doctrine has now taken over virtually the entire Sinic world—China, Tibet, Indochina. Is there some way that . . . the question is, what is the cosmic purpose for this, and how should one come to terms with this prevailing . . . this increasingly prevailing notion that justice can be established in a material state or a material dimension? Prabhupāda: In the material world there cannot be any peace, justice, morality. It is not possible. You may try to make some adjustment, but it will never be possible. So, by their concocted imagination, they are thinking, "This way will be beneficial," but unless they come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of peace, prosperity, justice. It is not possible. Unless we come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of justice, morality, peace. It is not possible. They may attempt in different ways, by their mental speculative process, but actually it will never come to be true. They are all trying—the scientists, philosophers, politicians, religionists—to make some adjustment, but that is not possible. We must understand the material platform, these threefold miserable conditions. Just like we are trying to avoid some miserable condition, very insignificant—to get out of the disturbance created by the mosquitoes and the flies. We are trying our best, but still they are disturbing. Is it not? Still they find out some loopholes and go into the room and disturb you. So you cannot avoid. Similarly, the disturbances of nature—the severe cold, scorching heat—how you can counteract it? Is it possible? Not possible. Ādhyātmika , you may keep your body quite fit to your best knowledge, but still there will be some trouble, sometimes coughing, sometimes mental equilibrium is lost, you don't feel nice. So these things will go on. Because we have got this material body, the material conditions must work. You cannot make any adjustments. That's not possible. You have come to the spiritual platform independent of this material body, then there will be everything solved, on every purpose. They can waste their time for making an adjustment, but that is not possible. I have given some example, that everyone is trying to become free from the material disturbances, but it is not possible. Nobody is free from material disturbance. That is not possible. So if you actually want freedom from material disturbances, you have to come to the spiritual platform and cultivate spiritual knowledge and be fixed up. Then your life is successful. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is there a relationship, he's asking, between these disturbances and this age, that this time that we are living in . . . Prabhupāda: It is more or less. Sometimes you have got 110° temperature and sometimes you have got 70° temperature. But the disturbance is there. Either 110° or 70° or 30°, you'll have to feel the disturbance. You cannot stop it. So either you take the cause this age, or this country, or this atmosphere, we can say so, but it will continue. That is the nature of the material world. If you think that 110° is too much, "Let it be 100° . . ." That you concoct like that. In fact any such temperature will disturb you. That's a fact. You can think that if it would have been 100°, it would have been very nice. But that's not the fact. Either 110° or 100°, it is disturbing. That is a fact. Then how can you stop it? Anyone who wants to stop it, he's intelligent. And that is described here, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mam eti (BG 4.9). One has to understand this fundamentally, that so long I'll get this material body, I'll have to suffer. Maybe differences of degrees, but I will have to suffer. So my endeavor should be how to become independent of this material body. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Not to make a distinction of different degrees. Different degrees . . . one position . . . "One man's food, another man's poison," the same degree. If you think that it is nice, another man will suffer. So suffering will continue. That is not possible to . . . (indistinct) . . . it is the nature of material world, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). (aside) Find out this verse. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. This material world is full of miseries. That they do not understand. Miserable condition they are accepting as pleasing. That is called ignorance. Pradyumna: "After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection." *Prabhupāda: The material world is full of miseries. It may be of different degrees, but it is full of miseries. You cannot avoid by adjustment. That is not possible. Therefore the materialist, they are trying. Just like in this country, Iran, now the Iranians are trying to become as opulent as the Americans are. They are trying to build up similar cities and industries. But do you think they will be happy then? No. Are the Americans happy by having big, big cities? No. That is not possible. Now they are trying to imitate, but that is a false attempt. That is not the life. They can see that Americans have got big, big cities, they have big, big organizations, but are they happy actually or not? From practical example. Then why you are attempting again to imitate them? That intelligence is lacking. How they will be happy, they do not know it. They are trying to imitate somebody else who is already on the standard, so*-called, but still they are not happy. The Communists, they're trying for the last fifty years to become happy, but are they happy actually? No. The Russians and the Chinese, they are now differing, "No, this is not the standard. This is standard." So the same thing is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). It is like chewing the chewed, that's all. Somebody has chewed the sugarcane and it's thrown away. Another man comes, "Let me taste it." And what you'll taste? It is already finished. *So all these "isms," they are all finished. All the scientific discoveries, they are all finished. And where is happiness? This is not the way. That is the . . . mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). You have to attempt in such a way that after giving up this body, you go back home, back to Godhead, never come back again here. This is the way. Otherwise, there is no happiness. Go on struggling, that is your choice. Make new attempts. Just like this moon excursion. Ten years ago in one small book, Easy Journey to Other Planets , we predicted that this moon*-going attempt is childish and waste of time. We are not expert scientist, but from the śāstra we can understand. Now such a brilliant planet, pleasing, and they have discovered there rocks and sand. Just see their intelligence. Do you think rocks and sand is so brilliant? What do you think? This bluff is going on. People are feeling under the moonshine is so pleasing, and it is full of rocks and sand. We have to accept that. Rocks and sand, throughout the whole day by scorching heat, they also become heated. So at night it is suffering. So if it is rocks and sand, so whole day it was heated by the sunshine, how it is pleasing? . . . but if there is no material activities, then you are not affected. This is possible. Just like an iron rod, you put into the fire. Gradually, it becomes warmer, warmer, and at last, when it is red hot, it is fire, no more iron. Similarly, even though we have got this material body, if we cultivate spiritual life, then the activities of the material body will stop automatically. Therefore it is no more material body. The same example, the iron rod has become already fire. So you put it in the fire, and continue it, then you'll understand that it is no more iron rod, it is fire. Touch anywhere, it will burn. You cannot say it is iron bar. Similarly, if you become spiritually enlightened, then the material activities will stop, and then you'll be happy. (break) You'll feel, "Yes, I have got some . . . (indistinct) . . ." Peter: In the last chapter which he read, he was . . . I think you read about the yogīs who can get to this high level of consciousness and then they can still fall back. That's like, my question: what was the cause for this? *Prabhupāda: If you do not come to the point of fulfillment of your appetite—you are eating, but if you have not sufficiently eaten, then you want more to eat. But if you have sufficiently eaten, then you will say: "No, no, no. No more I want." Even if you are offered, "Take more food." You'll say: "No, I have enough." It is a question of sufficiency and insufficiency. If you are insufficiently spiritually advanced, you'll feel vacancy so much. But if you are sufficiently advanced, then you'll say: "It is all right now." It is a question of sufficiency, insufficiency. So other method, jñāna , yoga , they are insufficient. And bhakti*-yoga is sufficient. Therefore you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). (aside) Find out this verse. He never recommends jñāna , yoga , karma . Bhakti . So if you take the path of bhakti , then you'll feel sufficiency. Otherwise, you'll feel insufficient. To some extent, although it is perfect, but it is not completely perfect. Pradyumna: "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." Prabhupāda: That's it. Unless you enter into the kingdom of God, you'll not feel full satisfaction. Even if you go to the moon planet or Mars planet, there is no question of satisfaction. Ātreya Ṛṣi: (to guest) So your question is whether one can enter this kingdom of God with this body. *Prabhupāda: No, that is already explained— tyaktvā dehaṁ . Giving up this body, one can enter in spiritual world. Viśate tad*-anantaram —after death. By bhakti , when he's mature and he gives up this body, then he enters into the spiritual world. Tyaktvā deham, giving up this body. You cannot enter; *although by devotional service the material activities of the body will stop, but you have to wait for the moment when this material body is no more existing, then with spiritual body you can enter. Tyaktvā deham, mām eti. Viśate tad*-anantaram. Tad-anantaram : after death. And if you have got little pinch of material attachment, then you'll have to accept another material body. So we have come to the point that no more I want anything material. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). I am no more anyone's servant. I am neither American nor Iranian nor Indian nor Hindu nor Muslim, not this, not that; I'm simply servant of . . . that is my position. And so long I shall keep attachment for this designation, temporary . . . what is this "Iranian," "American," "Indian"? Say for few years. Because you have to change this body. Tyaktvā deham. Tathā dehāntaram . So after giving up this body, you have to accept another body. If I am in the next body I become a sparrow, then where is my conception of Iranian, Indian and Hindu, and Muslim? I am sparrow, jumping like sparrow, that's all. So these are designations, temporary designations. One has to become free from these temporary designations. Then he's liberated. That is bhakti . So this life should be utilized for purifying ourself from this designation. If you keep the designation, then there is no possibility of purification. You'll get another designation. Now we are Indian or Iranian, next a sparrow or a crow or a tree or a demigod—another designation. Just like the same: the child, a baby, on the lap of the mother, a baby; and another designation, boy; another designation, young man; another designation, old man. But the spirit soul is the same. He's simply changing designation. So freedom means freedom from these all these designations. I am spirit, ahaṁ brahmāsmi . I am spirit soul, my business is spiritual activity. So long we want to keep designation, you'll have to accept material body and suffer. *So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to educate people how to become free from designations. Therefore we accept from any group. He might think that he is under designation . . . but our business is to make him free from the designation. We therefore welcome anyone. He may come with designation, but if he lives with us, he follows our rules and regulations, he become free from designation. And this so*-called designated religious system will not help us. If we keep ourself on the designated platform—"I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Iranian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am Buddhist"—then we have to continue in that designation. There is no question of freedom. That requires tapasya . That designationless status is called brahma-bhūtaḥ . And the opposite of brahma-bhūtaḥ is jīva-bhutaḥ. Jīva-bhutaḥ . . . there are so many jīvas , living entities. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." And the bird is thinking, "I am bird." The man is thinking, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." So this designation, you may be a dog designation or Hindu designation or Muslim, they are the same. There is no difference. Maybe some degrees. But one has to become designationless. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Then bhakti , when one is designationless. If he wants to keep his designation, then there is no question of bhakti . The bhakti line is so nice that if you take to bhakti line, automatically you'll be designationless. (pause) Prabhupāda: Now you have to decide whether you want to keep designation or become free from designation. (pause) Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, thank you very much. (guests leave) (break) Pradyumna: . . . activity, but he still has designation and he comes to the temple and he chants, but he still thinks . . . Prabhupāda: That is an attempt to become designationless. But one has to become free from designation. The same example: If the rod is put in the fire, it is becoming warm, warmer, warmer, and when it is red hot it is no more rod, it is fire. So beginning of life, neophyte stage, is the beginning. When he actually becomes advanced in devotional service, that is designationless. Pradyumna: But we still call that, when a person first comes and he still has that designation stage, but we still call that bhakti ? Prabhupāda: No, he's on the platform. Just like the same example. The iron rod is put in the fire. So it is fiery condition. Similarly, one who has given to devotional service, he is in the designationless condition, but it requires time to make the iron rod exactly fire. Pradyumna: Same thing as that pulling the plug out of the fan. Prabhupāda: Huh? Pradyumna: Same example, pulling the plug out and fan keeps going for some . . . *Prabhupāda: There are so many examples. There are so many examples. The beginning stage and the perfect stage. Perfect stage, designationless. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, in the beginning, api cet su*-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30): even he's not completely a devotee, still, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ , you must accept him as a devotee. Why? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. He has taken to the process completely. So there may be some designations of his on account of past habit, but because he has taken to the process of becoming designationless, he is sādhu . If he sticks to the principle, kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati (BG 9.31), he'll very soon he'll become a perfect devotee and he'll get peace— śaśvac-chānti-kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati . These things are there. So one has to take the line of Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, then everything automatically will appear. There is no . . . that is called utsāhān dhairyāt. Dhairyāt , patience. Niścayād : "I have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness exactly as Kṛṣṇa wants, then I'll surely be perfect." That is niścayād . There is no doubt about it. If I am following the direction of Kṛṣṇa under the guidance of spiritual master, be sure that you'll be successful. There is no question of becoming unsuccessful. Niścayād . But if I am deviating, that is my . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you follow, then you'll be sure to be successful. Jñānagamya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that what Lord Caitanya is trying to teach Haridāsa Ṭhākura when he says, "Put away your excess humility"? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jñānagamya: Haridāsa Ṭhākura is following all the principles, but he's always feeling so fallen. So Lord Caitanya tells him, "Put away your excess humility." Is this what He is trying to teach him? That we should have assurance? *Prabhupāda: Assurance is there. Kṛṣṇa says, kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhakta . . . (BG 9.31). If you remain pure devotee, you'll never fall down. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). These are assurances. If you simply try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, why does He come, what are His activities, janma karma ca me divyam , simply . . . this is cultivation, to understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa consciousness cultivation. And Kṛṣṇa assures, tyaktvā dehaṁ : you have to give up this body. But for a devotee giving up this body means no more accepting another body. And nondevotees giving up this body, tathā dehāntara prāptir : another body. That is the difference between devotee and nondevotee. One may say both of them are dying. Yes, they are dying, that's all right. They are not dying—nobody is dying—but changing the body. But a devotee's changing not to accept any more material body. The nondevotees changing to accept another. That is the difference. And if you accept another body you will suffer, more or less, degrees. And if you don't accept material body, then you become spiritually situated. Sac*-cid-ānanda vigraha (BS 5.1), simply ānanda , eternally blissful. Very easy. *So we should be intelligent enough that if by practicing in this one life I can get next eternal, blissful life of knowledge, why shall I deviate? Even if there is some difficulty, let me tolerate. What is the difficulty? Caitanya Mahāprabhu given so easy, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and everything will be done perfectly. So where is the difficulty? No difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has not bluffed. He said kalau nāsty eva : in Kali*-yuga you cannot do anything more. You do, simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty now? A boy can chant. It is simply practice, association. Your son, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. *So these chances should be given to everyone, then everything will be all right. Let him be practiced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then everything will go on. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Where is the difficulty, unless we make it difficult? Otherwise there is no difficulty. Otherwise suffering. Just like this lamb. It has got the Iranian body, but he's kept there for being killed. So what is the benefit of this Iranian body? But people are very much enthusiastic to remain nationalists, "I am Iranian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that." So, but he has worked in a different way, so he has got attachment for becoming American and Iranian, "All right you become." And according to work you have to become a lamb, and other Iranians eat you. That's all. This is designation. They do not understand, or they are not educated that what he will get by these designations. Big, big movement is going on on this designation platform. In our country, Mahatma Gandhi, he supposed to be a great personality, but what is his teaching? He remained in designation, that's all. "Feel like Indian and drive away the English." By one designation, you drive away another designation. This is going on. And he took Bhagavad*-gītā and never said: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." This is going on. Karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa sakale viṣera bandha (Prema-bhakti-candrikā). This is karma-kāṇḍa . Designation means this. And higher than this karma-kāṇḍa , the mental speculators, jñāna-kāṇḍa . So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, both of them viṣera bandha , pot of poison. If you waste your time in this way, then they will get another body, that's all. Nana yoni bhraman kare kadārya bhakṣana kare, tara janma adha pate yaya . These are simple words, but it contains very, very grave meaning from the Vaiṣṇava ācārya . Where is Ātreya Ṛṣi? Jñānagamya: Ātreya Ṛṣi? I'll get him. *Pradyumna: If we take that analogy, karma*-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa , then . . . *Prabhupāda: Everything is going on, karma*-kāṇḍa . Whole world acting fruitive activities: "Let me work and get the result." This is karma-kāṇḍa . Pradyumna: And it is like poison. From poison we suffer and die. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is . . . die means spiritual death. No spiritual idea. Otherwise, we have no death, nitya . But spiritual death is there. (Ātreya Ṛṣi enters, offers obeisances) So your friends are satisfied or not? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They said they were. Prabhupāda: This is scientific truth. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I have noticed that people who are materially contaminated, when they hear spiritual preaching, they can always look at it from material point of view. For example, when you speak of designation, one boy was asking how come we are also having shaved heads and dressing like devotees. In other words, the emphasis on their minds is more on what is everybody else thinking, while the emphasis in your teaching is how you yourself can become free, not what everybody else is thinking. While our shaving of our head and dressing as devotee is a means to become free from all designation, he may be seeing other designations. Prabhupāda: No, it does not depend on shaving head. But this is in the process. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is in the process. *Prabhupāda: Yes. By shaving . . . there are so many shaven*-headed. Does it means that he's in the process? Just like a doctor carries one stethoscope. But if somebody thinks, "Let me carry a stethoscope, I'll become a doctor." (break) But for a doctor the stethoscope is required. But if a false man takes a stethoscope and declares himself a doctor, medical man, then he is cheating. (pause) Prabhupāda: You get here puffed rice? No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Get? Ātreya Ṛṣi: We . . . let me ask. We may have little bit. Prabhupāda: No, here they prepare puffed rice? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. From India or from America. We don't have. Prabhupāda: You get imported. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Would you like me to ask? Prabhupāda: Yes, few grains. Hari-śauri: We have some flat rice with us, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We brought some flat rice, cheera . Prabhupāda: No, don't . . . (indistinct) . . . I shall not take it. Jñānagamya: Did he see that in the store now? I'm asking if he saw it in the store. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, it is not here, we got it. Prabhupāda: What is that? No. Don't take trouble. I'll not take. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No trouble. Jñānagamya: I have some friends in American commissary, friends like that. They could possibly get it. I'll call them. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You get some tomorrow. Can I see if we can fix you some, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Puffed rice? No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What would you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, doesn't matter. *Nava*-yauvana: Someone has given us some from India. Prabhupāda: Puffed rice? *Nava*-yauvana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Bring it, let me see. (pause) Prabhupāda: I think today is cooler, so I don't require to lie down outside. Hari-śauri: Sleep inside? Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Sleep inside? Pradyumna: It's coming to pūrṇimā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Moon is cooling effect. Desert will make a cooling effect. (laughter) Just see. At least I shall not believe that this is desert and rock. I am not so fool. The desert and rock is giving so nice brilliant shining, everyone is feeling comfortable. Just see. We have to believe it. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because Kṛṣṇa is missing. They don't accept Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, they should have at least common sense. But they have no common sense. Kṛṣṇa is far away from here, for these rascals, but at least they should have common sense. But that also they have not. Even they have not common sense. Pradyumna: Children are always asking . . . it is a folk thing that children ask, "What is the moon made of? Mother, father, what is the moon made of?" Prabhupāda: They ask? Pradyumna: Generally, when they young, "What is the moon?" "What is the moon made of?" So they used to answer, "It's made of green cheese." (laughter) *Prabhupāda: You believe that it is desert and rock and giving so nice shining, cooling effect? In Vedic literature there is always comparison, analogy, with moon, moon*-faced, candra-mukhi . There are so many. Best thing is compared with the moon. We have named Māyāpur-candra. Māyāpur-candrodaya Mandira. Do you mean that a desert is coming out from Māyāpur? (pause) Prabhupāda: You have got rock candy? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Give me little. Jñānagamya: Prabhupāda, your temples are the real spaceships. We can go to the other planets and to Kṛṣṇaloka from your temples. Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore I've given you *Easy Journey to Other Planets* . (devotee brings in puffed rice) It is from India? *Nava*-yauvana: It is from India. Prabhupāda: Fresh. Atreya Ṛṣi: Would you like it fried a little? Prabhupāda: Little make it hot. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hot. We can little heat it. Prabhupāda: That's all. After heating, put little ghee, very little, and mix it with black pepper and salt. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We mix it or you mix it? Prabhupāda: I can mix. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We'll bring it separately. Prabhupāda: But this is good. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And also we can bring some fruit? Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) . . . keep it there. So this is nice. Hari-śauri: Shall I put some on this lid, or . . .? Prabhupāda: Hmm. (background discussion as devotees arrange things) Some Indian gentleman has given? Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is Mrs. Patel. We asked. Prabhupāda: She has prepared or . . .? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, from India. Prabhupāda: Persian rice is famous. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. It is prepared in a different way. It is prepared differently. Prabhupāda: Persian rice? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, we prepare it also differently. Prabhupāda: How? Ātreya Ṛṣi: We first boil it and then take the water out and then steam it, steam it with ghee . Prabhupāda: So first of all you boil? Ātreya Ṛṣi: And take the water out. Prabhupāda: Paddy? Paddy? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, boil for two three minutes and then steam. Prabhupāda: Rice? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes then steam. And it makes very long, individual . . . Prabhupāda: And then you dry? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. We eat it like that. Prabhupāda: For two, three days? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. Pradyumna: No. They eat it immediately after cooking. Prabhupāda: Oh. Pradyumna: Was that the rice she made? She prepared it that way last night? This afternoon? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. This rice isn't even Persian; it's American rice. Persian rice is too expensive, even in Persia. (indistinct background conversation) (break) Prabhupāda: They make very nice puffed rice in Bengal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: How do they make it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Not difficult. The paddy, they are boiled. And then again baked in the sunshine. Again boil, then again baked in the sunshine. Then the skin is taken out by that ḍheṅki , what is called? That rice . . . Pradyumna: Thresher? *Prabhupāda: That is that ḍheṅki , husking machine, the skin is taken away. Then mixed with salt and make it heated. Then when it is prepared, then they heat sand, and in that heated sand they put the rice, and immediately putt*-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt . Like that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They also make it like that in America? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Ātreya Ṛṣi: In America they probably have a short*-cut process. Prabhupāda: Maybe. What method? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Industrial. Machines. (laughs) Pradyumna: We used to have for breakfast. (end) Ātreya Ṛṣi: If there are planets, Śrīla Prabhupāda, like the sun planet, where . . . Prabhupāda: We get information from the śāstra , every planet is full of life. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, that there is life in um, some planets. *Prabhupāda: Jana*-kīrṇa , this very word is used, jana-kīrṇa , "congested with life." And we have got description, this loka , this loka , this loka is fighting sometimes with other loka , or that . . . everything is description there. There is milk ocean, there is this ocean, that ocean, varieties of. So if we have to take these rascals' version—they're simply rogues—then the whole śāstra becomes false. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The point in the śāstra is that every . . . Prabhupāda: And they will advertise that these description in the śāstras , they are all mythology. Of course, this kind of bluffing cannot go, because suppose this Mars expedition becomes a failure, like that, the same . . . it will be failure. So next time, if they propose, I think people will be hesitant to go. Simply bringing people rocks and sands, without any utility, after spending so much money. How long they can repeat this, "Yes, we went to this planet, rocks. We went to this—rocks." So we see variety. If you . . . the so many luminaries, simply rocks and sands? The moon is full of rocks, and it's so illuminating? Whole universe is illuminated so nice, moonshine. So many stars illuminating, and they're rocks and sand? We have to believe it? Jñānagamya: They are saying there is life on Mars. They are seeing microbes, small little living entities. They are detecting these with their machines. So they are seeing, there is some life. Prabhupāda: Microbes? Jñānagamya: Microbe, you know, like microscopic . . . *Prabhupāda: Why they can see only microbes, not a fully grown*-up human being? Jñānagamya: No, they are detecting through gas. They feed the microbes, and then microbes give off evacuation . . . Prabhupāda: How they can see? Suppose you see from a distant place, this planet. So how you can see within water? You can take photograph of the water, but how you can take photograph within the water? So what is the value of their taking photograph? Does the photograph takes the picture within the water? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of such photograph? Jñānagamya: But they are not detecting with photographs, they are detecting with chemicals. Prabhupāda: What . . . (indistinct) . . . chemical? Jñānagamya: They say the chemicals are giving off gases when they are feeding the earth. They take the ground from Mars . . . Prabhupāda: Just see so many bogus words they manufacture to make believe. Because they are scientist, they'll talk all big, big words which we cannot understand. So you cannot argue. (talks gibberish) Like that. By common sense question, that they are simply finding out rocks and sand, and again they are saying somebody has bombed. The first . . . (coughing) If there is bomb, then there is fight; so if there is fight, there must be human being. *Harikeśa: He was the one that told me about that, about the canyon and the bombed*-out place. Jñānagamya: Yes, I was working for USIS, US Information Service, and I had a commission to paint a large picture of this Mars landing ship, and they had information coming back that they were finding a long blockhouse with a big crater in the center, like a building that had been bombed. Fourteen kilometer crater. They had a picture like that. It appeared to be a building. But they are all cheaters. I used to live in Florida where they send up these . . . they are all drunkards. They drink alcohol, very unserious. Prabhupāda: Oh, then they can manufacture. All drunkards, they are in charge of this fighting. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, if there are some visitors, can they come up? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Will we have readings, or would you like to talk with them? Prabhupāda: Let them come, we shall see. My point is, why they do not see any other spot? Only these spots are visible, where there are rocks. They say Howrah station is closed. No sane man will believe that, that Howrah station is closed. Jñānagamya: They do not want to upset the illusion that they are God, that they are the only ones in the universe. So if they find out there is life on another planet, they will not like it. If there is higher life somewhere else, they will not like that. They are always in competition. Prabhupāda: And all the higher lives are in Europe and America. Especially in America, eh? That is their mania. They do not like that there may be higher lives, you said. They like it that there may not be any higher life. That is their preconception. Jñānagamya: Yes. This is the highest here, cannot be any higher. They will not accept. Prabhupāda: Just see how much biased they are. *Jñānagamya: They cannot accept another philosophy. They will not accept philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā because it is from another country. They do not like that. Prabhupāda: Ah, now you can see their attitude. *Jñānagamya: So it is very good. On the abridged Bhagavad*-gītā we have Americans, Emerson and Thoreau, saying this is a wonderful book. That is very good, that is very impressive to Americans. They will accept if some great Americans have said. *Prabhupāda: That was my policy from the very beginning, that if the Americans accept, then my mission will be successful. And that is being done gradually, and I am insisting that preach in America vigorously. If America accept, then whole world will accept. That's a fact. Anywhere, although America may be fallen, the ideal is American, everywhere. Because they have got money. Kali*-yuga means money. If you have got money, then you have got culture, you have got education, you have got everything. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Formerly, they were attached, family, aristocracy, culture, education. Nowadays there is no such thing. Get money and you get everything. It is not? Somehow or other, if you have got control over money then you have got everything. Bring that black Bhāgavata . What is that sound coming? There is goat? Parivrājakācārya: I think a lamb, sheep. Prabhupāda: Lamb. Parivrājakācārya: Yes. Prabhupāda: They keep lambs for . . .? Parivrājakācārya: For sacrificing. Prabhupāda: They sacrifice at home? Parivrājakācārya: The Koran says that you should sacrifice the animal at home, with his head pointing toward Mecca. Prabhupāda: Huh? Parivrājakācārya: With the head of the animal towards Mecca. Prabhupāda: Mecca, oh. Parivrājakācārya: And you let the blood of the animal flow toward Mecca, and then you can eat an animal. So they keep many sheep here just for that purpose. Prabhupāda: Oh. So at least they do not recommend to purchase from the slaughterhouse. That is also good. Jñānagamya: But they have slaughterhouse. *Parivrājakācārya: But the Koran restricts meat*-eating. Prabhupāda: It is restriction. Parivrājakācārya: Yes. So this is what we explain—we say if it is good, then why is it restricted? Prabhupāda: That is good explanation. What do they say? Parivrājakācārya: They say, well, Muhammad did it. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But this is restriction. There is light in the veranda? Jñānagamya: Yes, there is light. Yes. Prabhupāda: So let us go so that you can sit comfortably. You can take this little pillow. Parivrājakācārya: Would you like a glass of water, Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That janma*-acarana , that Twelfth Canto, Third Chapter. I shall like to sit down . . . (indistinct) Parivrājakācārya: Is that cushion all right? Prabhupāda: Now in the beginning . . . Pradyumna: The beginning of Third Chapter? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: The Third Chapter begins, dṛṣṭvātmani jaye vyagrān . That's Third Chapter. Prabhupāda: Second Chapter. *Pradyumna: Second Chapter, tataś cānu*-dinaṁ dharmaḥ. Prabhupāda: Ah. Pradyumna: It says carma ? Cara ? Prabhupāda: Dharmaḥ cara . Pradyumna: Oh. Prabhupāda: Now you begin that. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Vittam eva , that's it. Vittam eva ? *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ Prabhupāda: Ah. Vittam means money. So if you have got money, then you are coming from high family. There is no consideration of Brahmin, kṣatriya. If you have got money, then you are everything. Vittam eva hi ? *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . *Prabhupāda: Ah. Janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ. That is practical, we see. If you have got money, then people will come to you, "Oh, you are so learned, you are so qualified." Just like George, or John Lennon. What qualification they have got? But people will go there and take them as very highly learned and scholar and everything. The press reporters take their opinion. But what is their qualification? The qualification, by selling some records they have got money, that's all. What is that qualification? Now of course, they are coming to—George at least—coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, from qualification point of view, they are not learned, educated in university, or they have got any spiritual asset, born Brahmin family, nothing. Simply money. We also go and flatter them to get some money. (laughs) So this is Kali-yuga. Vittam eva. If you have got money, then you have got everything. Therefore people are after so much money, after money. Vittam eva , hmm? Read that? Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: dharma*-nyāya . In India we have seen that you bribe the brāhmaṇas and they'll give decision in your favor. And it is experienced by everyone. In the law court you bribe even the high-court judge, he'll give judgment in your . . . that is proven. One big judge—not now, at least fifty years ago, or more than that—his business was to take bribe, high-court judge, very learned judge. He was asked. He'll give judgement if you give him ten thousand rupees. So other brother high-court judges, they knew it. So in one case he was just arranging for this, and the chief justice called him that, "You immediately resign and go home, otherwise this arrangement you have made, it will be exposed." So he had no other alternative. He immediately resigned, and on some plea like "My heart is palpitating," so in this way he left the court, and then he was never allowed again. And when his friends asked him that "Why you are doing this?" so he said, "What can I do? I have got at least ten thousand rupees' expenditure per month and I get only four thousand." That was his . . . he was very able lawyer. By private practice he was earning more, but this practice . . . and nowadays it has come to, at least in India, anywhere you go, and bribe, and you get a favorable decision. (guests arrive) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall be sitting inside or here? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Wherever you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I can like anywhere. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is good, this is good. Prabhupāda: But these gentlemen? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They will be . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Sit down. So let them come near; our men may go there. You can sit down. Let them come forward. (discussion as guests change places) Take, give them. Yes. You can give room light also. Jñānagamya: Inside. Inside the room. Prabhupāda: That's it. So, there is introduction? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Hamidi. He's a friend of mine at work, and he's very much is interested in both Indian and Iranian spiritual life, in culture as it is. And this is Peter. He has been coming here on Fridays. Prabhupāda: He's American? Peter: English. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. And he's come and taken prasādam , and we talk to him sometimes. Jñānagamya: He offers pūjā to Lord Buddha. He's worshiping Lord Buddha. He has an altar. Prabhupāda: The other boy? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Siva, Mr. Siva from Malaysia. He's Hindu, I believe. And he's recently come to visit us. Next is Dr. Rulf, he is from Holland. He is an economist, and he is working here, and we have . . . I've been acquainted with him through business. And that is Reza. He has been coming here for a long time, he's been chanting. Prabhupāda: He's trying to be . . . (indistinct) . . . both? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So Iranian spiritual culture and Indian spiritual culture, you told me? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So first of all, what is spiritual culture? Mr. Hamidi: Sufism. Prabhupāda: No, not . . . just like gold. Mr. Hamidi: Oh, the gold . . . Prabhupāda: I'll explain. Gold, either in Iran or in India, gold is gold. You cannot say "Iranian gold" or "Indian gold." That is not possible. Similarly, when you says: "Iranian spiritual culture" and "Indian spiritual culture," the common point is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture is one. It cannot be Iranian, Indian, or anywhere belonging to some sycophant. Just like this moon. This moon is now on Iran. But that does not mean it's Iranian moon. Or the sun, it does not mean Iranian sun. Moon is one. Either in India or in Iran, the moon is moon. You cannot say "Iranian moon" or "Indian moon." So spiritual culture is one, and material culture is one. Therefore I'm asking, "What do you mean by spiritual culture?" That is my question. Then we shall consider whether it is Iranian or Indian or . . . what is your idea of spiritual culture? Mr. Hamidi: Of course, I believe that they're all the same, but . . . Prabhupāda: No, same . . . but you must explain at least. I want to know that how far you have understood spiritual culture as it is. That is my question. Mr. Hamidi: Well, of course, it is very difficult to differentiate. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is difficult. Practically you do not know what is spiritual culture. That is a fact. So first of all, you must try to understand what is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture means . . . there are two things within our experience: matter and spirit. So matter is this body, and spirit is the soul within the body. Without spirit, this material body has no value. That we experience every day. When a man is dead, we take it, "Now the body is useless. Throw it away." Therefore the body is important so long the spirit soul is there. And that is spirit. And when we study that spirit soul, that is the beginning of spiritual culture. If you have no idea of what is that spirit, then there is no question of spiritual culture. With this body we cannot make any progress of spiritual culture. That is not possible. The body is matter. They're explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , antavanta ime dehā . Bring Bhagavad-gītā . Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ . So try to understand what is spirit, what is matter. Pradyumna: Translation: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction; therefore, fight, O descendant of Bharata." Prabhupāda: Only the material body is subject to destruction. Eh? Pradyumna: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction." Prabhupāda: Yes, the body's destructible, but the spirit soul is not destructible. When you understand this point, then we understand what is spirit, and then spiritual culture begins. Without being convinced of this spirit soul, there is no question of spiritual culture. So the spirit soul is described as eternal. And the proof is given, eternity. Just like there are so many children. They'll grow up from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood. The body is changing. This is very practical. But the spirit soul is there, the same spirit soul which was within the womb of the mother in a small body, then coming out of the mother's womb. The same spirit soul is there, but the body is different. In this way, the body is being situated in different status, but we know that the proprietor of the body is the same. Is there any difficulty to understand? Anyone? The body is changing, that's a fact. You are young man. You'll have to become an old man like me. That means body will change. But so far you are concerned, you are the same. So, the body changes and the spirit soul remains the same. This is to be understood first of all. What is the difficulty? First of all, you must distinguish what is spirit, what is matter. Material culture means this body is there, it requires some necessities. The body must be given something to eat. Is it not? Eating? Then the body must be given some rest, sleeping, for which we require some apartment, some place. Not we, but also even the animals, birds, they have got their nest, or the animal has got some hole or something. So eating, sleeping, and some sense gratification, sex. These are bodily necessities. But when you understand what is spirit, then we must try to find out what is spiritual necessities. That is spiritual culture. You cannot go on with the bodily culture as spiritual culture. That is a mistake. Spiritual culture is different from the bodily culture. And when we understand it, then there is no question of "Iranian spiritual culture" or "Indian spiritual culture." Spiritual culture is one, as bodily culture is also one. It does not mean that only Indians eat and the Iranians do not eat. The Iranians also eat, because they're bodily necessities. Similarly, spiritual culture also, there is some necessities which is equally needed by the Iranians, by Americans, by Indians. It is not . . . just like when we say that the child grows to become a boy. This is not applicable only to the Indians or Iranians. It is applicable to everyone. Child grows everywhere. You cannot say this is Indian or Iranian. It everywhere. So if we understand what is spiritual culture what is material culture, then there is no question of Iranian or Indian or English or American. Spiritual culture is the same everywhere. So any question on this point? Any difficulty to understand? (pause) Prabhupāda: Spiritual culture or material culture, it is one and the same everywhere. There cannot be any difference. Materially, we want to cover this body, some dress. Everyone has got dress. You cannot say this is Iranian dress or it is Indian dress. Dress is dress, that's all. So any question on this point? Mr. Hamidi: Isn't it the approach which makes it different? Prabhupāda: This is the approach, that first of all you distinguish what is matter, what is spirit. This is the approach. Mr. Hamidi: Well, perhaps, the spiritual culture, what we mean by that, all the rituals, all the different approach . . . Prabhupāda: No, rituals, we shall come later on. First of all, let us understand what is matter, what is spirit. Unless we understand what is matter and what is spirit, there is no question of spiritual culture. Then you'll be misguided. By material culture, you will pass on as spiritual culture. And that is going on. (pause) Jñānagamya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the goal once one understands what is spirit and what is matter? What is the goal past that? Prabhupāda: Goal is there, because spirit is important. Without spirit, matter has no value. This is a material box, but because it has no spirit, it has no value. It has value, comparatively, but not as valuable as a human being because there is no spirit. You can move, if you like; you can go immediately. But this, for many thousands of years it will lie down here. It cannot move, because there is no spirit. Therefore spirit is important. So this distinction is possible to understand in the human form of body. What is the distinction between a human being or a living man and this box? The distinction is that the living being has the spirit soul within and the box has no spirit soul within. Now if we take care of this box outwardly, that we should take; similarly if you take care of the body only, then where is spiritual culture? If you take care of the four principles of bodily necessities—eating, sleeping and sex and defense—then where is spiritual culture? The aim should be spiritual culture, at least for human being. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand what is the distinction between spirit and soul, er, spirit and matter, but a human being can understand that, "This is spiritual side; this is material side. The spiritual side is important." Therefore the goal is how to understand the spiritual side. (break) That is the goal. If we don't cultivate the spiritual side, simply we take care of the bodily side, then we remain animals. And because people are taking only care for the body, this is animal civilization. Human civilization means to take care of the spiritual side. If there is no such attempt to take care of the spiritual side, simply for the material side, then we are no better than the animals. Because they cannot take any care of the spiritual side; they can take care of the material side. Peter: Is the soul dependent upon the body for its existence? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Soul is dependent? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Upon the body for existence. Prabhupāda: Yes. At the present moment, the soul is dependent on the material body because he has no spiritual culture. Just like we Indians, we were under the British rule. So long there was no national movement, they remained dependent on the Britishers. But as soon as there was national movement, they became independent. This is a crude example. Similarly, because we have no spiritual cultivation, we are dependent on this material body. Actually, the soul is not dependent on the body. It has become so under certain condition: because he's thinking that he is this body. They have been described as mūḍha. Mūḍha is an ass. Mūḍha means ass. So I do not know what it is here. In India the asses are kept by the washerman. The washerman loads tons of cloth on the back of the ass to take it to the waterside, and again he brings back to the washerman shop, and the washerman gives a morsel of grass, little, and he eats the grass and stands there to carry the tons of load, thinking that he's dependent on the washerman. He has no intelligence that, "The grass can be had anywhere. Why I am dependent on this washerman to carry so much load?" Lack of knowledge. Similarly, we are dependent on this body for lack of spiritual knowledge. As soon as he'll be enlightened by spiritual knowledge, then no more dependence. Therefore it is needed. Otherwise, he'll remain like an ass, perpetually dependent on the washerman. Mūḍha . We are thinking that without this body we cannot live. No. That is not the fact. We can live independently of this body. But our present position, because we have no spiritual culture, we are thinking that we are dependent on this body. Actually, we are not dependent. That will be revealed the more you advance in spiritual culture. What was his question before? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is your question satisfied? Peter: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: (referring to something in room) It is something like gum? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Does it require change? No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Change? Yes. Prabhupāda: No, I have got it filled in my . . . (indistinct) Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, it's finished after a while. Just twenty minutes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Then I shall put another? Dependence for twenty minutes. That is my dependence, for twenty minutes or twenty years or twenty millions of years. There are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty minutes. And there are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty years. And there are many animals who depend on the body for twenty millions of years. It is a question of proportion. But actually the spirit soul is not dependent on any type of body twenty minutes or twenty years and twenty millions of years. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Find out this. Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendent nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: Somebody else? Ātreya Ṛṣi: There are some guests coming. (background discussion as guests move around) Prabhupāda: Come forward. No, let them come in. So whether these gentlemen's questions are answered? If they have got any doubt, we can . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Through association they will ask more questions. Prabhupāda: What is that verse? Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: So this is the process of becoming independent of the material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is the process. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to make one independent of this material body. Any other questions? Then bring my beads. (long pause) Prabhupāda: My question is whether you like to remain dependent on this material body. Hmm? If you can live spiritually independent, whether you should remain dependent on this material body, and whether to remain dependent on this material body is happy or it is distress? What is your realization? To remain dependent on this material body, is it very good or is it troublesome, huh? Peter: Suffering. Prabhupāda: Suffering, very good. If you remain dependent on this material body, then suffering. So why don't you become independent? That is the next question. Peter: Attachment. Prabhupāda: Attachment, maybe. That is not a very important thing. But if there is a process, how to become independent of this body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. Just like a man suffering from illness—attachment or no attachment, he's now suffering from that illness—but he has put himself into hospitalization under some physician. So that process will cure him, and he'll not suffer from this disease. That is the hope. Or that is the fact. Similarly, circumstantially, we may be dependent on this material body, but if there is a process how we can become independent of the body, why should we not take it? The same example: If a man is diseased, he's captured by the disease. Attachment or no attachment, it is difficult. But he must put himself under treatment so that he can be detached from it. That is intelligence. "I am caught by the disease. So let me suffer without any treatment," that is not intelligence. I must take the process of treatment by which . . . that is explained there, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Take this treatment so that after giving up this body you'll not have any more material body. And as soon as you become free from this material body, there is no suffering. But as soon as you get material body, you must suffer. So if there is way and means to avoid this material body, and remain in our original, spiritual body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. And is very simple thing. (aside) Read it again. Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities, does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: Purport? *Pradyumna: "The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the sixth verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage, and therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body. Such liberation of the living entity from material bondage is not at all easy. The impersonalists and the yogīs attain liberation only after much trouble and many, many births. Even then, the liberation they achieve, merging into the impersonal brahma*-jyotir of the Lord, is only partial, and there's the risk of returning again to this material world. But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning again to this material world. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated that the Lord has many, many forms and incarnations: advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (BS 5.33). Although there are many transcendental forms of the Lord, they are still one and the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. One has to understand this fact with conviction, although it is incomprehensible to mundane scholars and empiric philosophers. As stated in the Vedas :" "The one Supreme Personality of Godhead is eternally engaged in many, many transcendental forms in relationships with His unalloyed devotees.' This Vedic version is confirmed in this verse of the *Gītā* personally by the Lord. He who accepts this truth on the strength of the authority of the *Vedas* and of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and who does not waste time in philosophical speculations, attains the highest perfectional stage of liberation. Simply by accepting this truth on faith, one can, without a doubt, attain liberation. The Vedic version, tat tvam asi , is actually applied in this case. Anyone who understands Lord Kṛṣṇa to be the Supreme, or who says unto the Lord, 'You are the Supreme Brahman, the Personality of Godhead,' is certainly liberated instantly, and consequently his entrance into the transcendental association of the Lord is guaranteed. In other words, such a faithful devotee of the Lord attains perfection, and this is confirmed by the following Vedic assertion:" *"One can attain the perfect stage of liberation from birth and death simply by knowing the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no alternative, because anyone who does not understand Lord Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is surely in the mode of ignorance. Consequently he will not attain salvation simply, so to speak, by licking the outer surface of the bottle of honey, or by interpreting the Bhagavad*-gītā according to mundane scholarship. Such empiric philosophers may assume many important roles in the material world, but they are not necessarily eligible for liberation. Such puffed-up mundane scholars have to wait for the causeless mercy of the devotee of the Lord. One should therefore cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness with faith and knowledge, and in this way attain perfection." Prabhupāda: So if there is some process to become independent of this material body, why should we not accept? What is the objection? (doorbell sounds) If somebody's suffering from some disease and if there is process of curing it, why one should not take it? (long pause) Prabhupāda: So your friends' questions and answers are welcome. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They just came to listen, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, they must be satisfied. (break) Ātreya Ṛṣi: The young man who just came is Terry Graham. He'd come to see you two years ago when you were here. Prabhupāda: Oh, jaya . Ātreya Ṛṣi: He's a journalist. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I remember. So he has got any question? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Terry, do you have any questions? Terry: No. (long pause) *Terry: I have a question about this particular age. Where the world seems to be dividing itself between two kinds of materialists: the one which pays lip service to spiritual precedents but really devotes itself to self*-aggrandizement, and the other, which establishes an atheistic doctrine in the name of moral struggle with that greedy self-aggrandizement. In fact, this atheistic moral doctrine has now taken over virtually the entire Sinic world—China, Tibet, Indochina. Is there some way that . . . the question is, what is the cosmic purpose for this, and how should one come to terms with this prevailing . . . this increasingly prevailing notion that justice can be established in a material state or a material dimension? Prabhupāda: In the material world there cannot be any peace, justice, morality. It is not possible. You may try to make some adjustment, but it will never be possible. So, by their concocted imagination, they are thinking, "This way will be beneficial," but unless they come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of peace, prosperity, justice. It is not possible. Unless we come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of justice, morality, peace. It is not possible. They may attempt in different ways, by their mental speculative process, but actually it will never come to be true. They are all trying—the scientists, philosophers, politicians, religionists—to make some adjustment, but that is not possible. We must understand the material platform, these threefold miserable conditions. Just like we are trying to avoid some miserable condition, very insignificant—to get out of the disturbance created by the mosquitoes and the flies. We are trying our best, but still they are disturbing. Is it not? Still they find out some loopholes and go into the room and disturb you. So you cannot avoid. Similarly, the disturbances of nature—the severe cold, scorching heat—how you can counteract it? Is it possible? Not possible. Ādhyātmika , you may keep your body quite fit to your best knowledge, but still there will be some trouble, sometimes coughing, sometimes mental equilibrium is lost, you don't feel nice. So these things will go on. Because we have got this material body, the material conditions must work. You cannot make any adjustments. That's not possible. You have come to the spiritual platform independent of this material body, then there will be everything solved, on every purpose. They can waste their time for making an adjustment, but that is not possible. I have given some example, that everyone is trying to become free from the material disturbances, but it is not possible. Nobody is free from material disturbance. That is not possible. So if you actually want freedom from material disturbances, you have to come to the spiritual platform and cultivate spiritual knowledge and be fixed up. Then your life is successful. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is there a relationship, he's asking, between these disturbances and this age, that this time that we are living in . . . Prabhupāda: It is more or less. Sometimes you have got 110° temperature and sometimes you have got 70° temperature. But the disturbance is there. Either 110° or 70° or 30°, you'll have to feel the disturbance. You cannot stop it. So either you take the cause this age, or this country, or this atmosphere, we can say so, but it will continue. That is the nature of the material world. If you think that 110° is too much, "Let it be 100° . . ." That you concoct like that. In fact any such temperature will disturb you. That's a fact. You can think that if it would have been 100°, it would have been very nice. But that's not the fact. Either 110° or 100°, it is disturbing. That is a fact. Then how can you stop it? Anyone who wants to stop it, he's intelligent. And that is described here, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mam eti (BG 4.9). One has to understand this fundamentally, that so long I'll get this material body, I'll have to suffer. Maybe differences of degrees, but I will have to suffer. So my endeavor should be how to become independent of this material body. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Not to make a distinction of different degrees. Different degrees . . . one position . . . "One man's food, another man's poison," the same degree. If you think that it is nice, another man will suffer. So suffering will continue. That is not possible to . . . (indistinct) . . . it is the nature of material world, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). (aside) Find out this verse. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. This material world is full of miseries. That they do not understand. Miserable condition they are accepting as pleasing. That is called ignorance. Pradyumna: "After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection." *Prabhupāda: The material world is full of miseries. It may be of different degrees, but it is full of miseries. You cannot avoid by adjustment. That is not possible. Therefore the materialist, they are trying. Just like in this country, Iran, now the Iranians are trying to become as opulent as the Americans are. They are trying to build up similar cities and industries. But do you think they will be happy then? No. Are the Americans happy by having big, big cities? No. That is not possible. Now they are trying to imitate, but that is a false attempt. That is not the life. They can see that Americans have got big, big cities, they have big, big organizations, but are they happy actually or not? From practical example. Then why you are attempting again to imitate them? That intelligence is lacking. How they will be happy, they do not know it. They are trying to imitate somebody else who is already on the standard, so*-called, but still they are not happy. The Communists, they're trying for the last fifty years to become happy, but are they happy actually? No. The Russians and the Chinese, they are now differing, "No, this is not the standard. This is standard." So the same thing is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). It is like chewing the chewed, that's all. Somebody has chewed the sugarcane and it's thrown away. Another man comes, "Let me taste it." And what you'll taste? It is already finished. *So all these "isms," they are all finished. All the scientific discoveries, they are all finished. And where is happiness? This is not the way. That is the . . . mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). You have to attempt in such a way that after giving up this body, you go back home, back to Godhead, never come back again here. This is the way. Otherwise, there is no happiness. Go on struggling, that is your choice. Make new attempts. Just like this moon excursion. Ten years ago in one small book, Easy Journey to Other Planets , we predicted that this moon*-going attempt is childish and waste of time. We are not expert scientist, but from the śāstra we can understand. Now such a brilliant planet, pleasing, and they have discovered there rocks and sand. Just see their intelligence. Do you think rocks and sand is so brilliant? What do you think? This bluff is going on. People are feeling under the moonshine is so pleasing, and it is full of rocks and sand. We have to accept that. Rocks and sand, throughout the whole day by scorching heat, they also become heated. So at night it is suffering. So if it is rocks and sand, so whole day it was heated by the sunshine, how it is pleasing? . . . but if there is no material activities, then you are not affected. This is possible. Just like an iron rod, you put into the fire. Gradually, it becomes warmer, warmer, and at last, when it is red hot, it is fire, no more iron. Similarly, even though we have got this material body, if we cultivate spiritual life, then the activities of the material body will stop automatically. Therefore it is no more material body. The same example, the iron rod has become already fire. So you put it in the fire, and continue it, then you'll understand that it is no more iron rod, it is fire. Touch anywhere, it will burn. You cannot say it is iron bar. Similarly, if you become spiritually enlightened, then the material activities will stop, and then you'll be happy. (break) You'll feel, "Yes, I have got some . . . (indistinct) . . ." Peter: In the last chapter which he read, he was . . . I think you read about the yogīs who can get to this high level of consciousness and then they can still fall back. That's like, my question: what was the cause for this? *Prabhupāda: If you do not come to the point of fulfillment of your appetite—you are eating, but if you have not sufficiently eaten, then you want more to eat. But if you have sufficiently eaten, then you will say: "No, no, no. No more I want." Even if you are offered, "Take more food." You'll say: "No, I have enough." It is a question of sufficiency and insufficiency. If you are insufficiently spiritually advanced, you'll feel vacancy so much. But if you are sufficiently advanced, then you'll say: "It is all right now." It is a question of sufficiency, insufficiency. So other method, jñāna , yoga , they are insufficient. And bhakti*-yoga is sufficient. Therefore you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). (aside) Find out this verse. He never recommends jñāna , yoga , karma . Bhakti . So if you take the path of bhakti , then you'll feel sufficiency. Otherwise, you'll feel insufficient. To some extent, although it is perfect, but it is not completely perfect. Pradyumna: "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." Prabhupāda: That's it. Unless you enter into the kingdom of God, you'll not feel full satisfaction. Even if you go to the moon planet or Mars planet, there is no question of satisfaction. Ātreya Ṛṣi: (to guest) So your question is whether one can enter this kingdom of God with this body. *Prabhupāda: No, that is already explained— tyaktvā dehaṁ . Giving up this body, one can enter in spiritual world. Viśate tad*-anantaram —after death. By bhakti , when he's mature and he gives up this body, then he enters into the spiritual world. Tyaktvā deham, giving up this body. You cannot enter; *although by devotional service the material activities of the body will stop, but you have to wait for the moment when this material body is no more existing, then with spiritual body you can enter. Tyaktvā deham, mām eti. Viśate tad*-anantaram. Tad-anantaram : after death. And if you have got little pinch of material attachment, then you'll have to accept another material body. So we have come to the point that no more I want anything material. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). I am no more anyone's servant. I am neither American nor Iranian nor Indian nor Hindu nor Muslim, not this, not that; I'm simply servant of . . . that is my position. And so long I shall keep attachment for this designation, temporary . . . what is this "Iranian," "American," "Indian"? Say for few years. Because you have to change this body. Tyaktvā deham. Tathā dehāntaram . So after giving up this body, you have to accept another body. If I am in the next body I become a sparrow, then where is my conception of Iranian, Indian and Hindu, and Muslim? I am sparrow, jumping like sparrow, that's all. So these are designations, temporary designations. One has to become free from these temporary designations. Then he's liberated. That is bhakti . So this life should be utilized for purifying ourself from this designation. If you keep the designation, then there is no possibility of purification. You'll get another designation. Now we are Indian or Iranian, next a sparrow or a crow or a tree or a demigod—another designation. Just like the same: the child, a baby, on the lap of the mother, a baby; and another designation, boy; another designation, young man; another designation, old man. But the spirit soul is the same. He's simply changing designation. So freedom means freedom from these all these designations. I am spirit, ahaṁ brahmāsmi . I am spirit soul, my business is spiritual activity. So long we want to keep designation, you'll have to accept material body and suffer. *So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to educate people how to become free from designations. Therefore we accept from any group. He might think that he is under designation . . . but our business is to make him free from the designation. We therefore welcome anyone. He may come with designation, but if he lives with us, he follows our rules and regulations, he become free from designation. And this so*-called designated religious system will not help us. If we keep ourself on the designated platform—"I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Iranian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am Buddhist"—then we have to continue in that designation. There is no question of freedom. That requires tapasya . That designationless status is called brahma-bhūtaḥ . And the opposite of brahma-bhūtaḥ is jīva-bhutaḥ. Jīva-bhutaḥ . . . there are so many jīvas , living entities. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." And the bird is thinking, "I am bird." The man is thinking, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." So this designation, you may be a dog designation or Hindu designation or Muslim, they are the same. There is no difference. Maybe some degrees. But one has to become designationless. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Then bhakti , when one is designationless. If he wants to keep his designation, then there is no question of bhakti . The bhakti line is so nice that if you take to bhakti line, automatically you'll be designationless. (pause) Prabhupāda: Now you have to decide whether you want to keep designation or become free from designation. (pause) Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, thank you very much. (guests leave) (break) Pradyumna: . . . activity, but he still has designation and he comes to the temple and he chants, but he still thinks . . . Prabhupāda: That is an attempt to become designationless. But one has to become free from designation. The same example: If the rod is put in the fire, it is becoming warm, warmer, warmer, and when it is red hot it is no more rod, it is fire. So beginning of life, neophyte stage, is the beginning. When he actually becomes advanced in devotional service, that is designationless. Pradyumna: But we still call that, when a person first comes and he still has that designation stage, but we still call that bhakti ? Prabhupāda: No, he's on the platform. Just like the same example. The iron rod is put in the fire. So it is fiery condition. Similarly, one who has given to devotional service, he is in the designationless condition, but it requires time to make the iron rod exactly fire. Pradyumna: Same thing as that pulling the plug out of the fan. Prabhupāda: Huh? Pradyumna: Same example, pulling the plug out and fan keeps going for some . . . *Prabhupāda: There are so many examples. There are so many examples. The beginning stage and the perfect stage. Perfect stage, designationless. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, in the beginning, api cet su*-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30): even he's not completely a devotee, still, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ , you must accept him as a devotee. Why? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. He has taken to the process completely. So there may be some designations of his on account of past habit, but because he has taken to the process of becoming designationless, he is sādhu . If he sticks to the principle, kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati (BG 9.31), he'll very soon he'll become a perfect devotee and he'll get peace— śaśvac-chānti-kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati . These things are there. So one has to take the line of Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, then everything automatically will appear. There is no . . . that is called utsāhān dhairyāt. Dhairyāt , patience. Niścayād : "I have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness exactly as Kṛṣṇa wants, then I'll surely be perfect." That is niścayād . There is no doubt about it. If I am following the direction of Kṛṣṇa under the guidance of spiritual master, be sure that you'll be successful. There is no question of becoming unsuccessful. Niścayād . But if I am deviating, that is my . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you follow, then you'll be sure to be successful. Jñānagamya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that what Lord Caitanya is trying to teach Haridāsa Ṭhākura when he says, "Put away your excess humility"? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jñānagamya: Haridāsa Ṭhākura is following all the principles, but he's always feeling so fallen. So Lord Caitanya tells him, "Put away your excess humility." Is this what He is trying to teach him? That we should have assurance? *Prabhupāda: Assurance is there. Kṛṣṇa says, kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhakta . . . (BG 9.31). If you remain pure devotee, you'll never fall down. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). These are assurances. If you simply try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, why does He come, what are His activities, janma karma ca me divyam , simply . . . this is cultivation, to understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa consciousness cultivation. And Kṛṣṇa assures, tyaktvā dehaṁ : you have to give up this body. But for a devotee giving up this body means no more accepting another body. And nondevotees giving up this body, tathā dehāntara prāptir : another body. That is the difference between devotee and nondevotee. One may say both of them are dying. Yes, they are dying, that's all right. They are not dying—nobody is dying—but changing the body. But a devotee's changing not to accept any more material body. The nondevotees changing to accept another. That is the difference. And if you accept another body you will suffer, more or less, degrees. And if you don't accept material body, then you become spiritually situated. Sac*-cid-ānanda vigraha (BS 5.1), simply ānanda , eternally blissful. Very easy. *So we should be intelligent enough that if by practicing in this one life I can get next eternal, blissful life of knowledge, why shall I deviate? Even if there is some difficulty, let me tolerate. What is the difficulty? Caitanya Mahāprabhu given so easy, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and everything will be done perfectly. So where is the difficulty? No difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has not bluffed. He said kalau nāsty eva : in Kali*-yuga you cannot do anything more. You do, simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty now? A boy can chant. It is simply practice, association. Your son, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. *So these chances should be given to everyone, then everything will be all right. Let him be practiced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then everything will go on. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Where is the difficulty, unless we make it difficult? Otherwise there is no difficulty. Otherwise suffering. Just like this lamb. It has got the Iranian body, but he's kept there for being killed. So what is the benefit of this Iranian body? But people are very much enthusiastic to remain nationalists, "I am Iranian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that." So, but he has worked in a different way, so he has got attachment for becoming American and Iranian, "All right you become." And according to work you have to become a lamb, and other Iranians eat you. That's all. This is designation. They do not understand, or they are not educated that what he will get by these designations. Big, big movement is going on on this designation platform. In our country, Mahatma Gandhi, he supposed to be a great personality, but what is his teaching? He remained in designation, that's all. "Feel like Indian and drive away the English." By one designation, you drive away another designation. This is going on. And he took Bhagavad*-gītā and never said: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." This is going on. Karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa sakale viṣera bandha (Prema-bhakti-candrikā). This is karma-kāṇḍa . Designation means this. And higher than this karma-kāṇḍa , the mental speculators, jñāna-kāṇḍa . So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, both of them viṣera bandha , pot of poison. If you waste your time in this way, then they will get another body, that's all. Nana yoni bhraman kare kadārya bhakṣana kare, tara janma adha pate yaya . These are simple words, but it contains very, very grave meaning from the Vaiṣṇava ācārya . Where is Ātreya Ṛṣi? Jñānagamya: Ātreya Ṛṣi? I'll get him. *Pradyumna: If we take that analogy, karma*-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa , then . . . *Prabhupāda: Everything is going on, karma*-kāṇḍa . Whole world acting fruitive activities: "Let me work and get the result." This is karma-kāṇḍa . Pradyumna: And it is like poison. From poison we suffer and die. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is . . . die means spiritual death. No spiritual idea. Otherwise, we have no death, nitya . But spiritual death is there. (Ātreya Ṛṣi enters, offers obeisances) So your friends are satisfied or not? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They said they were. Prabhupāda: This is scientific truth. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I have noticed that people who are materially contaminated, when they hear spiritual preaching, they can always look at it from material point of view. For example, when you speak of designation, one boy was asking how come we are also having shaved heads and dressing like devotees. In other words, the emphasis on their minds is more on what is everybody else thinking, while the emphasis in your teaching is how you yourself can become free, not what everybody else is thinking. While our shaving of our head and dressing as devotee is a means to become free from all designation, he may be seeing other designations. Prabhupāda: No, it does not depend on shaving head. But this is in the process. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is in the process. *Prabhupāda: Yes. By shaving . . . there are so many shaven*-headed. Does it means that he's in the process? Just like a doctor carries one stethoscope. But if somebody thinks, "Let me carry a stethoscope, I'll become a doctor." (break) But for a doctor the stethoscope is required. But if a false man takes a stethoscope and declares himself a doctor, medical man, then he is cheating. (pause) Prabhupāda: You get here puffed rice? No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Get? Ātreya Ṛṣi: We . . . let me ask. We may have little bit. Prabhupāda: No, here they prepare puffed rice? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. From India or from America. We don't have. Prabhupāda: You get imported. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Would you like me to ask? Prabhupāda: Yes, few grains. Hari-śauri: We have some flat rice with us, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We brought some flat rice, cheera . Prabhupāda: No, don't . . . (indistinct) . . . I shall not take it. Jñānagamya: Did he see that in the store now? I'm asking if he saw it in the store. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, it is not here, we got it. Prabhupāda: What is that? No. Don't take trouble. I'll not take. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No trouble. Jñānagamya: I have some friends in American commissary, friends like that. They could possibly get it. I'll call them. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You get some tomorrow. Can I see if we can fix you some, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Puffed rice? No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What would you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, doesn't matter. *Nava*-yauvana: Someone has given us some from India. Prabhupāda: Puffed rice? *Nava*-yauvana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Bring it, let me see. (pause) Prabhupāda: I think today is cooler, so I don't require to lie down outside. Hari-śauri: Sleep inside? Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Sleep inside? Pradyumna: It's coming to pūrṇimā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Moon is cooling effect. Desert will make a cooling effect. (laughter) Just see. At least I shall not believe that this is desert and rock. I am not so fool. The desert and rock is giving so nice brilliant shining, everyone is feeling comfortable. Just see. We have to believe it. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because Kṛṣṇa is missing. They don't accept Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, they should have at least common sense. But they have no common sense. Kṛṣṇa is far away from here, for these rascals, but at least they should have common sense. But that also they have not. Even they have not common sense. Pradyumna: Children are always asking . . . it is a folk thing that children ask, "What is the moon made of? Mother, father, what is the moon made of?" Prabhupāda: They ask? Pradyumna: Generally, when they young, "What is the moon?" "What is the moon made of?" So they used to answer, "It's made of green cheese." (laughter) *Prabhupāda: You believe that it is desert and rock and giving so nice shining, cooling effect? In Vedic literature there is always comparison, analogy, with moon, moon*-faced, candra-mukhi . There are so many. Best thing is compared with the moon. We have named Māyāpur-candra. Māyāpur-candrodaya Mandira. Do you mean that a desert is coming out from Māyāpur? (pause) Prabhupāda: You have got rock candy? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Give me little. Jñānagamya: Prabhupāda, your temples are the real spaceships. We can go to the other planets and to Kṛṣṇaloka from your temples. Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore I've given you *Easy Journey to Other Planets* . (devotee brings in puffed rice) It is from India? *Nava*-yauvana: It is from India. Prabhupāda: Fresh. Atreya Ṛṣi: Would you like it fried a little? Prabhupāda: Little make it hot. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hot. We can little heat it. Prabhupāda: That's all. After heating, put little ghee, very little, and mix it with black pepper and salt. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We mix it or you mix it? Prabhupāda: I can mix. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We'll bring it separately. Prabhupāda: But this is good. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And also we can bring some fruit? Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) . . . keep it there. So this is nice. Hari-śauri: Shall I put some on this lid, or . . .? Prabhupāda: Hmm. (background discussion as devotees arrange things) Some Indian gentleman has given? Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is Mrs. Patel. We asked. Prabhupāda: She has prepared or . . .? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, from India. Prabhupāda: Persian rice is famous. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. It is prepared in a different way. It is prepared differently. Prabhupāda: Persian rice? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, we prepare it also differently. Prabhupāda: How? Ātreya Ṛṣi: We first boil it and then take the water out and then steam it, steam it with ghee . Prabhupāda: So first of all you boil? Ātreya Ṛṣi: And take the water out. Prabhupāda: Paddy? Paddy? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, boil for two three minutes and then steam. Prabhupāda: Rice? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes then steam. And it makes very long, individual . . . Prabhupāda: And then you dry? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. We eat it like that. Prabhupāda: For two, three days? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. Pradyumna: No. They eat it immediately after cooking. Prabhupāda: Oh. Pradyumna: Was that the rice she made? She prepared it that way last night? This afternoon? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. This rice isn't even Persian; it's American rice. Persian rice is too expensive, even in Persia. (indistinct background conversation) (break) Prabhupāda: They make very nice puffed rice in Bengal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: How do they make it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Not difficult. The paddy, they are boiled. And then again baked in the sunshine. Again boil, then again baked in the sunshine. Then the skin is taken out by that ḍheṅki , what is called? That rice . . . Pradyumna: Thresher? *Prabhupāda: That is that ḍheṅki , husking machine, the skin is taken away. Then mixed with salt and make it heated. Then when it is prepared, then they heat sand, and in that heated sand they put the rice, and immediately putt*-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt . Like that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They also make it like that in America? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Ātreya Ṛṣi: In America they probably have a short*-cut process. Prabhupāda: Maybe. What method? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Industrial. Machines. (laughs) Pradyumna: We used to have for breakfast. (end) Prabhupāda: If you find out sand and rocks, you must also . . . (indistinct) . . . there was water. And from water, vegetation comes. From vegetation, other life comes. What we speak, we don't speak unscientifically. It is scientific. How this rascal says all of a sudden in the sky there is rock? Where from the rock came? Hari-śauri: Well, they say originally from gas. Prabhupāda: Gas? Hari-śauri: Gas. Prabhupāda: So gas . . . without water, there cannot be gas. Hari-śauri: Gas, and then it liquifies and then it solidifies. Prabhupāda: Liquid means water. So as soon as there is water, there is vegetation. You'll find everywhere. Water dries up, vegetable comes. Parivrājakācārya: Today they are exploring Mars, and they are saying that they're finding water on Mars. *Prabhupāda: Water's there. Everything must be there. Pañca*-bhūta, mahā-bhūta. Ether, then fire, then water, then land. Everything is described in the Bhāgavatam . They cannot speak nonsense. They can speak nonsense through the other literatures, but we cannot speak. Without water, how there is possibility of sand? Sand means it is salt. Parivrājakācārya: If you go out here, there is a big desert. Prabhupāda: That means there was water. Parivrājakācārya: Yes, and under the desert always. I took a trip a few weeks ago, all over Iran, through the deserts, to villages, and always just forty feet, forty meters under the desert, lots of water. They would bring the water up and then there would be green, they would grow vegetables. So even here there's water. Prabhupāda: The water, sea, as it becomes solidified, the outer surface, by sunshine they become, it is called sodium silicate. Salt is sodium chloride. So from sodium chloride, the sodium silicate. So cover of the sea they can solidify by the sodium silicate. But underneath there is water. Just like our this skin, bone, coming from where? We are eating liquid and . . . or some vegetables or some whatever, they are becoming liquidified. And first transformation is blood. Blood is liquid, and from blood everything is coming. The muscle is coming, the bone is coming. The more the liquid portion becomes solidified by air, gas, then these things coming. The formation of this body beginning the liquid semina, liquid ovum, mix together. From liquid. Then they form pea like solid thing, from that liquid. And then the body forms. Where from the solid body forms? The man injects liquid. Liquid inject, everything is coming. So where from the solid body comes? By chemical composition the body forms, from liquid to solid. So as soon as you see some solid thing, you must know that it has come from liquid. Parivrājakācārya: It got its form from liquid. The form, it had to come from liquid somehow. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Yes, liquid. The discharge of semina is liquid. It is not solid. So how this body comes? You cannot bluff that a solid has come all of a sudden. There was liquid, or there is liquid. Hari-śauri: Well, they'll accept that there was liquid. Prabhupāda: Yes, then there must have been vegetable. As soon as there is liquid there is vegetation. Hari-śauri: Their argument is that because there's no atmosphere, then there's no vegetation. *Prabhupāda: Oh, that is . . . that is another bogus. The atmosphere is the same everywhere. Little more. Just like in . . . (break) . . . say in the sun planet there is living entity, that is fire. So what do you mean by atmosphere, if even in fire there is life? Dahati pāvakaḥ . Bhagavad*-gītā . Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ ( BG 2.23). Pāvakaḥ means fire. Does not burn the soul. So where there is fire only, he develops fiery body. Not that by the fire it is finished. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . Where there is gas, air, nainam . . . find out this verse. Acchedyo' yam adāhyo' yam . Hari-śauri: Gītā ? *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. You do not read even. You should have reference immediately. (devotees search for verse) Parivrājakācārya: Even here on the earth, even ice in the South Pole of the earth, they find much life inside the ice. Prabhupāda: Just see. Here inside the ice there are life. Parivrājakācārya: They are very surprised. They said, "How is this happening?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Life is everywhere. This bogus theory there is no life, the atmosphere is different, it is bogus, simply bogus. Because spirit soul is never affected by any material atmosphere. That is the distinction between matter and spirit. It has nothing to do with 19:00 19:01 material atmosphere. They don't have knowledge, they are baffled. And those who have no knowledge, they are accepting. Hari-śauri: "The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind." *Prabhupāda: So where is question of atmosphere influence? Suppose there is rock and sand and always hot weather. That does not mean there cannot be any life. The life is never affected by all these things. Make propaganda about this knowledge. People will understand that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not joking, it is something serious. That boy was saying that these scientist, they know me. What is this boy's name, this boy said about the so*-called astronomer, scientist? Who was this boy? Pradyumna: Who came last night? Hari-śauri: One of our boys, American boy, that tall boy. Parivrājakācārya: Jñānagamya. Pradyumna: Here in this temple? Hari-śauri: Yes. Jñānagamya. He used to work with some science research as well. (indistinct comments about Jñānagamya) Parivrājakācārya: The scientists are like all materialists. They think if we have not seen it . . . Prabhupāda: (coughing heavily) You have to see from the book. Seeing from the book is real seeing. What you can see with these blunt eyes? I have seen in these navigators. They see in the different plans and books, and they direct their ship or airplane accordingly. How can he see where we are going? Hari-śauri: Just like they land an aeroplane. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got all plans and direction, and altitude, latitude and everything, which direction is going on in front of the pilot. So everything is there. In what position the plane is there, how high it is and how low it will be, where it is—everything. On that direction they can fly. Otherwise, what they can see with the eyes? Utmost ten miles, and it is running at six hundred miles? What ten miles will do them? So śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. Authoritative literature should be the eyes, not these blunt eyes. What is the value of these eyes? Now here is authority: nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . You should go to the school, colleges, and from Bhagavad-gītā give them real knowledge. The whole world is in darkness, and these rascals are guiding them. (pause) Prabhupāda: You have tasted the barā ? Nim barā ? Pradyumna: This morning. Prabhupāda: Huh? Did you like it? Parivrājakācārya: It tasted very healthy. Prabhupāda: Healthy? Parivrājakācārya: Healthy. Prabhupāda: Healthy? What is that? Parivrājakācārya: It tasted like it was good for me. Hari-śauri: That means it didn't taste very nice, but we accepted it was good. Parivrājakācārya: I know by my intelligence that it is good to keep eating, even though my tongue was saying "Stop." Prabhupāda: No, this neem is good. They say that if you eat at least two leaves of neem daily, you'll never lose your appetite. Appetite will be continuing. Hari-śauri: Who can eat two leaves of neem? (laughing) Prabhupāda: No, if you practice, it is not impossible. Pradyumna: I ate them one time. Remember in Bombay, I thought I had worms? You told me to eat nim? Prabhupāda: Effective? What happened? Pradyumna: Well, I didn't notice anything happened, but it was very, very bitter, so bitter. Prabhupāda: So that worms cured or not? Pradyumna: I don't know. Sometimes I think I have worms. Prabhupāda: You should not eat sweet. Parivrājakācārya: You cannot get neem in Iran. I have never seen a neem tree in Iran. Prabhupāda: No tree, simply desert. Where is tree? All desert. All this Middle East, desert. So they can be allowed to eat meat. Otherwise, how for they'll eat? Everyone must eat something. So if there is no vegetation, if there is no sufficient, they can be allowed. Parivrājakācārya: I visited some of these small villages in the south of Iran, and the tents of nomads who kept sheep, that was their life. They had a tent and they had hundreds of sheep, and they would move the tent every month. They would take the tent, for one month they would live here, and next month they would move. Prabhupāda: Why they're changing? Parivrājakācārya: Because they're desert people. The sheep eat all the little green, and then they have to move on. Pradyumna: Same thing as the Bible. When the sheep eat up all the green in that place, then they have to go to another place with their sheep. In the Bible the same thing. All that Abraham, Joseph . . . Prabhupāda: Bible was produced here, in this desert land. Jerusalem is not far away. Mecca, Medina . . . (indistinct) . . . Arabia. Parivrājakācārya: All they had to eat was the milk of sheep and goats, and sometimes when they would camp near a farm they would have vegetables. Sometimes. And then the meat of the sheep. Prabhupāda: And these dates. In the desert the date tree grows. Sometimes they eat camel also. Is it not? Parivrājakācārya: Yes. But I don't think if they . . . Prabhupāda: They cannot be strictly vegetarian; it is not possible. Parivrājakācārya: It is difficult. Prabhupāda: But even they eat meat, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no harm. Parivrājakācārya: But now they are farming in the desert. The Iranian government has started farms. They are irrigating the land with water, and when they put water on the desert they get all kinds of vegetables and grains very easily. So if they do that then they can become vegetarian, they have no excuse. The excuse of the people is that, "We have to eat meat." Prabhupāda: They can have rains from the sky by chanting. The rain will fall from the sky. Who can check it? (coughs heavily) Kṛṣṇa gives the water from the sky. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). Parivrājakācārya: They say in their books that this area used to be all forest with many, many trees about two to three thousand years ago. It was a very thick forest. But since then it has become desert; the rain has stopped since then. Prabhupāda: Because the yajña stopped. Pradyumna: That Sahara Desert used to be all trees, very fertile. Sahara Desert in Africa, it is the biggest desert in the world. Nothing . . . Prabhupāda: Sahara, Sahara. Pradyumna: Sahara Desert. It used to be very rich thousands of years ago, but then became desert. Hari-śauri: It's supposed to increase its size by ten miles every year. Pradyumna: Desert growth. Formerly, that city Carthage used to be there. Carthage was fighting Rome. Carthage was very rich, all farms. Prabhupāda: Cartharian civilization was very big civilization. The thing is that the more people become sinful, they'll be disturbed by this natural atmosphere. Therefore I'm surprised that moon planet is inhabited by pious inhabitants, how there can be desert? Pradyumna: But does moon planet have something to do with pitṛs ? Does the Pitṛ . . . Pitṛloka is different? Prabhupāda: Pitṛ ? Pradyumna: Pitā, Pitṛ ? Prabhupāda: No, Pitṛloka is different. That is downwards. Hari-śauri: Does that pitṛ , does that refer to the original progenitors? Pradyumna: No, forefathers. Prabhupāda: Latest development they are finding water in Mars? Parivrājakācārya: They find . . . it is very difficult for them, because they are using their eyes and other instruments. They have found places where there were rivers, and they are finding ice and other things. So I don't know the latest developments. It is obvious to them there is life, different kinds of life. Hari-śauri: The way of testing for life . . . Prabhupāda: Why you are spoiling your nails? It may come to a boil, and then you'll understand. It is very dangerous habit. If there is little . . . (indistinct) . . . then it will become a boil. *Pradyumna: Jñānagamya said that on Mars they found something like a crater with a house. Looked like a . . . or a bombed*-out thing. This Jñānagamya was working with a . . . he works with some information service, U.S. Information Service. So he was in charge of designing something here for Fourth of July, some program. So he got this information from this U.S. Information Service which generally . . . sometimes it isn't made public. It's just in their U.S. service. They'd seen some kind of a crater with . . . Parivrājakācārya: Roads in it as well. Pradyumna: Yes, something with roads in it or something, they'd seen Hari-śauri: The way they test for life is they take some soil and they mix certain things with it, and then they wait and see if there is some life development from that. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Hari-śauri: Yes. They mix ammonia and . . . Prabhupāda: Same chemical theory. Why do they not in the end mix something and see if life is coming? They are all rascals, speaking one after another. Hari-śauri: That's their whole thing, that if . . . Prabhupāda: If by mixing something they can bring life, why not in the egg? Hari-śauri: Yes, they can't even do it here, where there's so much life. Prabhupāda: Simply for . . . but you rascals, you cannot understand how they are speaking rascaldom. Hari-śauri: No, I can see now. I've been with you so long I can understand now. Parivrājakācārya: They have sent this one ship to Mars at a cost of one billion dollars. They are making these tests. Hari-śauri: Now they've got a second one going around as well. That's Viking 1 that's on there now, and they have another one, Viking 2, that's designed to orbit. Pradyumna: Vikings were names of pirates. Viking means pirates. Pirate's a thief. Vikings, they used to be thieves. They've named their spaceship Viking. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . main idea going to the other planets? Colonization, or what? Pradyumna: One thing, they say, is security, that America and Russia are fighting. So it was a race to get to the moon because they think that from other planets that they can control conditions on the earth. From another planet they can control weather or they can control different things. Prabhupāda: Just see how bogus. Pradyumna: That is one thing they say, they must get to the moon first, for security. Prabhupāda: That is now failure. Now they'll do it from Mars. Hari-śauri: Not so much from there for security. It's just . . . Parivrājakācārya: Their pride. One country, just like children playing, one can say: "I can fly higher than you," and so "We can go to the moon before you can." For no reason than just to show they can do it. Hari-śauri: It's an excuse to spend money. It's for fun. Prabhupāda: They cannot settle up their misunderstanding here. By going to the moon planet, they'll do it. Hari-śauri: That's one thing that they said they were going to do, actually. They had some Russian astronauts and some American astronauts, and they had them meet in space, and then they joined their spaceships together, and then they had a meal together and did some experiments, and then they left again. So that was very much acclaimed as bringing the two nations closer together. Prabhupāda: We are afraid of these two classes of rascals. "Afraid of" means we don't want their association. It is very dangerous. Pradyumna: You said in the *Bhāgavatam* , just now, that we are afraid of the materialistic men. Prabhupāda: Yes. Personally I feel, I have several times told. For a devotee to live with nondevotees is so obnoxious and troublesome, it is sometimes mentioned, better to remain within a cage surrounded by fire, and still, don't remain with nondevotees. You prefer to live within a cage surrounded by fire. That living is preferable than to live with this nondevotee class. Hari-śauri: A lot of the devotees had that experience living with their parents before they joined the movement. It was so hellish they had to get out. Then they, some way or other, met . . . Prabhupāda: *Bhakta*-sane bās , that is the essential part of progressing. (pause) Prabhupāda: Dayānanda's daughter came, in my lavatory. Hari-śauri: When you were in? Prabhupāda: Yes, I was going . . . Hari-śauri: In? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Generally, this barā are made with paṭola leaves, paṭola leaves mashed and mixed with this dahī . Hari-śauri: Is that just as healthy as neem leaves? Paṭola leaves? Just the same. Prabhupāda: It is better. (break) . . . the influence of the moon planet, the vegetation grows. Do they accept, the modern botanists, influence of moon planet? Parivrājakācārya: All the farmers, they . . . Prabhupāda: They do believe? Parivrājakācārya: They believe that. They plant certain seeds according to the moon. Prabhupāda: Just see. *Pradyumna: Even in the West they only plant certain things on the waxing moon, not on the waning moon. On śukla*-pakṣa. Prabhupāda: And moon is vacant. By the influence of moon, other vegetation growing, and it cannot grow itself. Hari-śauri: They admit that the moon rays have some kind of potency. They know that. Prabhupāda: No, it is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* . Pradyumna: In the Jyotiṣa it has . . . it controls liquids. And I think even in hospitals here, near Pūrṇimā, where some of the times they don't like to do the operations because there will be more . . . the blood will run more. Something, they have some . . . someone had told me. The tides are also going according to the moon. The rivers are running according to the moon. In the Ganges, one time we went, swimming in Calcutta . . . Prabhupāda: The ebb tide, flow tide, according to the moon. Pradyumna: Something like that. One day the Ganges was very peaceful, and then we went again and it was rushing. If you went in you would just be carried away. You could only . . . (break) Prabhupāda: You can do it here. (referring to massage) Hari-śauri: You don't want to go outside today? Prabhupāda: Sunshine is bright. (end) Prabhupāda: If you find out sand and rocks, you must also . . . (indistinct) . . . there was water. And from water, vegetation comes. From vegetation, other life comes. What we speak, we don't speak unscientifically. It is scientific. How this rascal says all of a sudden in the sky there is rock? Where from the rock came? Hari-śauri: Well, they say originally from gas. Prabhupāda: Gas? Hari-śauri: Gas. Prabhupāda: So gas . . . without water, there cannot be gas. Hari-śauri: Gas, and then it liquifies and then it solidifies. Prabhupāda: Liquid means water. So as soon as there is water, there is vegetation. You'll find everywhere. Water dries up, vegetable comes. Parivrājakācārya: Today they are exploring Mars, and they are saying that they're finding water on Mars. *Prabhupāda: Water's there. Everything must be there. Pañca*-bhūta, mahā-bhūta. Ether, then fire, then water, then land. Everything is described in the Bhāgavatam . They cannot speak nonsense. They can speak nonsense through the other literatures, but we cannot speak. Without water, how there is possibility of sand? Sand means it is salt. Parivrājakācārya: If you go out here, there is a big desert. Prabhupāda: That means there was water. Parivrājakācārya: Yes, and under the desert always. I took a trip a few weeks ago, all over Iran, through the deserts, to villages, and always just forty feet, forty meters under the desert, lots of water. They would bring the water up and then there would be green, they would grow vegetables. So even here there's water. Prabhupāda: The water, sea, as it becomes solidified, the outer surface, by sunshine they become, it is called sodium silicate. Salt is sodium chloride. So from sodium chloride, the sodium silicate. So cover of the sea they can solidify by the sodium silicate. But underneath there is water. Just like our this skin, bone, coming from where? We are eating liquid and . . . or some vegetables or some whatever, they are becoming liquidified. And first transformation is blood. Blood is liquid, and from blood everything is coming. The muscle is coming, the bone is coming. The more the liquid portion becomes solidified by air, gas, then these things coming. The formation of this body beginning the liquid semina, liquid ovum, mix together. From liquid. Then they form pea like solid thing, from that liquid. And then the body forms. Where from the solid body forms? The man injects liquid. Liquid inject, everything is coming. So where from the solid body comes? By chemical composition the body forms, from liquid to solid. So as soon as you see some solid thing, you must know that it has come from liquid. Parivrājakācārya: It got its form from liquid. The form, it had to come from liquid somehow. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Yes, liquid. The discharge of semina is liquid. It is not solid. So how this body comes? You cannot bluff that a solid has come all of a sudden. There was liquid, or there is liquid. Hari-śauri: Well, they'll accept that there was liquid. Prabhupāda: Yes, then there must have been vegetable. As soon as there is liquid there is vegetation. Hari-śauri: Their argument is that because there's no atmosphere, then there's no vegetation. *Prabhupāda: Oh, that is . . . that is another bogus. The atmosphere is the same everywhere. Little more. Just like in . . . (break) . . . say in the sun planet there is living entity, that is fire. So what do you mean by atmosphere, if even in fire there is life? Dahati pāvakaḥ . Bhagavad*-gītā . Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ ( BG 2.23). Pāvakaḥ means fire. Does not burn the soul. So where there is fire only, he develops fiery body. Not that by the fire it is finished. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . Where there is gas, air, nainam . . . find out this verse. Acchedyo' yam adāhyo' yam . Hari-śauri: Gītā ? *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. You do not read even. You should have reference immediately. (devotees search for verse) Parivrājakācārya: Even here on the earth, even ice in the South Pole of the earth, they find much life inside the ice. Prabhupāda: Just see. Here inside the ice there are life. Parivrājakācārya: They are very surprised. They said, "How is this happening?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Life is everywhere. This bogus theory there is no life, the atmosphere is different, it is bogus, simply bogus. Because spirit soul is never affected by any material atmosphere. That is the distinction between matter and spirit. It has nothing to do with 19:00 19:01 material atmosphere. They don't have knowledge, they are baffled. And those who have no knowledge, they are accepting. Hari-śauri: "The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind." *Prabhupāda: So where is question of atmosphere influence? Suppose there is rock and sand and always hot weather. That does not mean there cannot be any life. The life is never affected by all these things. Make propaganda about this knowledge. People will understand that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not joking, it is something serious. That boy was saying that these scientist, they know me. What is this boy's name, this boy said about the so*-called astronomer, scientist? Who was this boy? Pradyumna: Who came last night? Hari-śauri: One of our boys, American boy, that tall boy. Parivrājakācārya: Jñānagamya. Pradyumna: Here in this temple? Hari-śauri: Yes. Jñānagamya. He used to work with some science research as well. (indistinct comments about Jñānagamya) Parivrājakācārya: The scientists are like all materialists. They think if we have not seen it . . . Prabhupāda: (coughing heavily) You have to see from the book. Seeing from the book is real seeing. What you can see with these blunt eyes? I have seen in these navigators. They see in the different plans and books, and they direct their ship or airplane accordingly. How can he see where we are going? Hari-śauri: Just like they land an aeroplane. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got all plans and direction, and altitude, latitude and everything, which direction is going on in front of the pilot. So everything is there. In what position the plane is there, how high it is and how low it will be, where it is—everything. On that direction they can fly. Otherwise, what they can see with the eyes? Utmost ten miles, and it is running at six hundred miles? What ten miles will do them? So śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. Authoritative literature should be the eyes, not these blunt eyes. What is the value of these eyes? Now here is authority: nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . You should go to the school, colleges, and from Bhagavad-gītā give them real knowledge. The whole world is in darkness, and these rascals are guiding them. (pause) Prabhupāda: You have tasted the barā ? Nim barā ? Pradyumna: This morning. Prabhupāda: Huh? Did you like it? Parivrājakācārya: It tasted very healthy. Prabhupāda: Healthy? Parivrājakācārya: Healthy. Prabhupāda: Healthy? What is that? Parivrājakācārya: It tasted like it was good for me. Hari-śauri: That means it didn't taste very nice, but we accepted it was good. Parivrājakācārya: I know by my intelligence that it is good to keep eating, even though my tongue was saying "Stop." Prabhupāda: No, this neem is good. They say that if you eat at least two leaves of neem daily, you'll never lose your appetite. Appetite will be continuing. Hari-śauri: Who can eat two leaves of neem? (laughing) Prabhupāda: No, if you practice, it is not impossible. Pradyumna: I ate them one time. Remember in Bombay, I thought I had worms? You told me to eat nim? Prabhupāda: Effective? What happened? Pradyumna: Well, I didn't notice anything happened, but it was very, very bitter, so bitter. Prabhupāda: So that worms cured or not? Pradyumna: I don't know. Sometimes I think I have worms. Prabhupāda: You should not eat sweet. Parivrājakācārya: You cannot get neem in Iran. I have never seen a neem tree in Iran. Prabhupāda: No tree, simply desert. Where is tree? All desert. All this Middle East, desert. So they can be allowed to eat meat. Otherwise, how for they'll eat? Everyone must eat something. So if there is no vegetation, if there is no sufficient, they can be allowed. Parivrājakācārya: I visited some of these small villages in the south of Iran, and the tents of nomads who kept sheep, that was their life. They had a tent and they had hundreds of sheep, and they would move the tent every month. They would take the tent, for one month they would live here, and next month they would move. Prabhupāda: Why they're changing? Parivrājakācārya: Because they're desert people. The sheep eat all the little green, and then they have to move on. Pradyumna: Same thing as the Bible. When the sheep eat up all the green in that place, then they have to go to another place with their sheep. In the Bible the same thing. All that Abraham, Joseph . . . Prabhupāda: Bible was produced here, in this desert land. Jerusalem is not far away. Mecca, Medina . . . (indistinct) . . . Arabia. Parivrājakācārya: All they had to eat was the milk of sheep and goats, and sometimes when they would camp near a farm they would have vegetables. Sometimes. And then the meat of the sheep. Prabhupāda: And these dates. In the desert the date tree grows. Sometimes they eat camel also. Is it not? Parivrājakācārya: Yes. But I don't think if they . . . Prabhupāda: They cannot be strictly vegetarian; it is not possible. Parivrājakācārya: It is difficult. Prabhupāda: But even they eat meat, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no harm. Parivrājakācārya: But now they are farming in the desert. The Iranian government has started farms. They are irrigating the land with water, and when they put water on the desert they get all kinds of vegetables and grains very easily. So if they do that then they can become vegetarian, they have no excuse. The excuse of the people is that, "We have to eat meat." Prabhupāda: They can have rains from the sky by chanting. The rain will fall from the sky. Who can check it? (coughs heavily) Kṛṣṇa gives the water from the sky. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). Parivrājakācārya: They say in their books that this area used to be all forest with many, many trees about two to three thousand years ago. It was a very thick forest. But since then it has become desert; the rain has stopped since then. Prabhupāda: Because the yajña stopped. Pradyumna: That Sahara Desert used to be all trees, very fertile. Sahara Desert in Africa, it is the biggest desert in the world. Nothing . . . Prabhupāda: Sahara, Sahara. Pradyumna: Sahara Desert. It used to be very rich thousands of years ago, but then became desert. Hari-śauri: It's supposed to increase its size by ten miles every year. Pradyumna: Desert growth. Formerly, that city Carthage used to be there. Carthage was fighting Rome. Carthage was very rich, all farms. Prabhupāda: Cartharian civilization was very big civilization. The thing is that the more people become sinful, they'll be disturbed by this natural atmosphere. Therefore I'm surprised that moon planet is inhabited by pious inhabitants, how there can be desert? Pradyumna: But does moon planet have something to do with pitṛs ? Does the Pitṛ . . . Pitṛloka is different? Prabhupāda: Pitṛ ? Pradyumna: Pitā, Pitṛ ? Prabhupāda: No, Pitṛloka is different. That is downwards. Hari-śauri: Does that pitṛ , does that refer to the original progenitors? Pradyumna: No, forefathers. Prabhupāda: Latest development they are finding water in Mars? Parivrājakācārya: They find . . . it is very difficult for them, because they are using their eyes and other instruments. They have found places where there were rivers, and they are finding ice and other things. So I don't know the latest developments. It is obvious to them there is life, different kinds of life. Hari-śauri: The way of testing for life . . . Prabhupāda: Why you are spoiling your nails? It may come to a boil, and then you'll understand. It is very dangerous habit. If there is little . . . (indistinct) . . . then it will become a boil. *Pradyumna: Jñānagamya said that on Mars they found something like a crater with a house. Looked like a . . . or a bombed*-out thing. This Jñānagamya was working with a . . . he works with some information service, U.S. Information Service. So he was in charge of designing something here for Fourth of July, some program. So he got this information from this U.S. Information Service which generally . . . sometimes it isn't made public. It's just in their U.S. service. They'd seen some kind of a crater with . . . Parivrājakācārya: Roads in it as well. Pradyumna: Yes, something with roads in it or something, they'd seen Hari-śauri: The way they test for life is they take some soil and they mix certain things with it, and then they wait and see if there is some life development from that. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Hari-śauri: Yes. They mix ammonia and . . . Prabhupāda: Same chemical theory. Why do they not in the end mix something and see if life is coming? They are all rascals, speaking one after another. Hari-śauri: That's their whole thing, that if . . . Prabhupāda: If by mixing something they can bring life, why not in the egg? Hari-śauri: Yes, they can't even do it here, where there's so much life. Prabhupāda: Simply for . . . but you rascals, you cannot understand how they are speaking rascaldom. Hari-śauri: No, I can see now. I've been with you so long I can understand now. Parivrājakācārya: They have sent this one ship to Mars at a cost of one billion dollars. They are making these tests. Hari-śauri: Now they've got a second one going around as well. That's Viking 1 that's on there now, and they have another one, Viking 2, that's designed to orbit. Pradyumna: Vikings were names of pirates. Viking means pirates. Pirate's a thief. Vikings, they used to be thieves. They've named their spaceship Viking. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . main idea going to the other planets? Colonization, or what? Pradyumna: One thing, they say, is security, that America and Russia are fighting. So it was a race to get to the moon because they think that from other planets that they can control conditions on the earth. From another planet they can control weather or they can control different things. Prabhupāda: Just see how bogus. Pradyumna: That is one thing they say, they must get to the moon first, for security. Prabhupāda: That is now failure. Now they'll do it from Mars. Hari-śauri: Not so much from there for security. It's just . . . Parivrājakācārya: Their pride. One country, just like children playing, one can say: "I can fly higher than you," and so "We can go to the moon before you can." For no reason than just to show they can do it. Hari-śauri: It's an excuse to spend money. It's for fun. Prabhupāda: They cannot settle up their misunderstanding here. By going to the moon planet, they'll do it. Hari-śauri: That's one thing that they said they were going to do, actually. They had some Russian astronauts and some American astronauts, and they had them meet in space, and then they joined their spaceships together, and then they had a meal together and did some experiments, and then they left again. So that was very much acclaimed as bringing the two nations closer together. Prabhupāda: We are afraid of these two classes of rascals. "Afraid of" means we don't want their association. It is very dangerous. Pradyumna: You said in the *Bhāgavatam* , just now, that we are afraid of the materialistic men. Prabhupāda: Yes. Personally I feel, I have several times told. For a devotee to live with nondevotees is so obnoxious and troublesome, it is sometimes mentioned, better to remain within a cage surrounded by fire, and still, don't remain with nondevotees. You prefer to live within a cage surrounded by fire. That living is preferable than to live with this nondevotee class. Hari-śauri: A lot of the devotees had that experience living with their parents before they joined the movement. It was so hellish they had to get out. Then they, some way or other, met . . . Prabhupāda: *Bhakta*-sane bās , that is the essential part of progressing. (pause) Prabhupāda: Dayānanda's daughter came, in my lavatory. Hari-śauri: When you were in? Prabhupāda: Yes, I was going . . . Hari-śauri: In? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Generally, this barā are made with paṭola leaves, paṭola leaves mashed and mixed with this dahī . Hari-śauri: Is that just as healthy as neem leaves? Paṭola leaves? Just the same. Prabhupāda: It is better. (break) . . . the influence of the moon planet, the vegetation grows. Do they accept, the modern botanists, influence of moon planet? Parivrājakācārya: All the farmers, they . . . Prabhupāda: They do believe? Parivrājakācārya: They believe that. They plant certain seeds according to the moon. Prabhupāda: Just see. *Pradyumna: Even in the West they only plant certain things on the waxing moon, not on the waning moon. On śukla*-pakṣa. Prabhupāda: And moon is vacant. By the influence of moon, other vegetation growing, and it cannot grow itself. Hari-śauri: They admit that the moon rays have some kind of potency. They know that. Prabhupāda: No, it is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* . Pradyumna: In the Jyotiṣa it has . . . it controls liquids. And I think even in hospitals here, near Pūrṇimā, where some of the times they don't like to do the operations because there will be more . . . the blood will run more. Something, they have some . . . someone had told me. The tides are also going according to the moon. The rivers are running according to the moon. In the Ganges, one time we went, swimming in Calcutta . . . Prabhupāda: The ebb tide, flow tide, according to the moon. Pradyumna: Something like that. One day the Ganges was very peaceful, and then we went again and it was rushing. If you went in you would just be carried away. You could only . . . (break) Prabhupāda: You can do it here. (referring to massage) Hari-śauri: You don't want to go outside today? Prabhupāda: Sunshine is bright. (end) *Nava*-yauvana: Many people, when they see the devotees, they are confused, and they think that the devotees are engaged in some kind of ritualistic activity, that the chanting and practices of devotees are ritualistic, and they compare it to their own rituals and they don't see any distinction. So they see it as sectarian. Prabhupāda: What they want? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Some of them are not sincere, so they simply want to find fault. But those who are sincere can be encouraged to . . . *Nava*-yauvana: They are all wanting material things. Like in Bhagavad-gītā , there is the verse, traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ ( BG 2.45). Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna to rise above the scriptures, the flowery words of the Vedas . *Prabhupāda: Well, they are not concerned with the Bhagavad*-gītā . You cannot quote from Bhagavad-gītā to instruct these rascals. You have to talk with them with common sense. Their charge is . . . what is their charge? That you are engaged in ritualistic ceremonies? *Nava*-yauvana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what they want us to do? If you don't want me to do this, then you must say what you want me to do. Is it not right? Suppose I am chanting. If you don't want me to chant, then what do you want me to do, the next question will be. Jñānagamya: They want us to engage in sense gratification like they are engaged. That is what they want. Prabhupāda: Want . . . we want that, if you want me to do like you, then I want you to do like me. If you want me to accept your proposal, why you'll not accept my proposal? Jñānagamya: Because if I think that sense gratification is better, then I want . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. You think sense gratification is better, I think sense gratification is bad. Jñānagamya: How can we tell the difference? How can we know which is better? Prabhupāda: No, there is difference. Why you want me to do like you? Then I shall want you to do like me. Jñānagamya: I say it because I want you to enjoy sense gratification. Prabhupāda: No, I am not going to accept you. Because you are not accepting my principles, so why shall I accept your principles? Jñānagamya: But your principle is austere, it's not nice. Prabhupāda: So that you say. Jñānagamya: That's what they say. Prabhupāda: They say, but we say you are bad, that you are enjoying simply sense gratification. Jñānagamya: They say what is wrong? Prabhupāda: No, what is wrong to us? It is your judgment that we are wrong. So my judgment you are wrong. Who will decide who is right? Eh? Ātreya Ṛṣi? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: If you judge me I am wrong, I am judging you are wrong. So if you don't want me to do like this, I also don't want you. Then where is the decision? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Actually, these people mentally understand that sense gratification is wrong, but they are so polluted that they are on the . . . Prabhupāda: No, for argument's sake. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . mental platform. Prabhupāda: If you want me to do like you, I also want you to do like me. You cannot find fault with me by saying that I am not acting like you, sense gratification. If you are acting in your way, I am acting in my way. Jñānagamya: It's relative on that platform. Prabhupāda: But if you want philosophy, the aim of life, the destination of life, then we can talk, what is the destination of life, what is required. If you criticize me, then I can criticize you also. Jñānagamya: Then we must take it to the absolute platform in order to actually have a sincere argument, to make a sincere decision. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no end of such things. Therefore unless one accepts a person guru , there is no need of talking. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Unless one accepts somebody as guru , the instruction will not be fruitful. Just like Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa as guru . So long he was talking as friend, it was not effective. Arjuna therefore decided . . . find out that verse, kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ . Harikeśa: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me." Prabhupāda: This is the position. Unless one feels like that and asks somebody, a superior, accepts him as guru , there is no use talking. It will not be useful. Jñānagamya: That's what you say in the purport. Prabhupāda: This is the position. If the injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12), if anyone is interested to know about the transcendental subject matter, he must approach a guru . And unless one approaches a guru , he cannot understand. And if by force I become guru , he may not be interested. This is the position. But still, for a preacher, he has to do something against all odds. That is preaching. You cannot expect favorable position. Your question was that we go and they say like this, but you cannot expect that wherever you are going you'll find favorable situation to talk. That you must understand. But you'll have to preach; you have to create favorable situation. That is your duty. You cannot expect, if they are not prepared to take good instruction. Where is that fan? Hari-śauri: He's bringing it. *Prabhupāda: You cannot expect favorable situation. It is not possible. When I came in America, I never expected any favorable situation. I wrote that poetry in disappointment that, "Who will accept this?" That is the position. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, gradually it will become a favorable situation, but don't expect any favorable situation. You have to handle unfavorable situation and make favorable situation to preach. That is preaching. Any business. (to devotee fanning) Just on the head. Just see, there is flies. So Nityānanda Prabhu, He went to preach to Jagāi*-Mādhāi. There was no favorable situation. They were drunkards. They caused injury on the body of Nityānanda Prabhu. So this is preaching with only unfavorable situation. You cannot expect favorable situation. And still you have to preach. That is preaching. They will speak like madman, so many things. They are mad, after all. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). They have no sense. All materialistic persons are madmen. Still, by the order of superior, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we have to do this preaching work. Actually, the American boys are fighting against so many unfavorable situations. They are sometimes beaten in the airport, you know that? Still they are preaching. That is preaching. That is preaching. "The unfavorable situation, so let me give it up," that is not preaching. Yes, we must know that there is unfavorable situation, still I have to do. That depends on your brain, how to tackle. You cannot expect favorable situation. Jñānagamya: Is it good to publicize these situations, Prabhupāda, that we are encountering so much difficulty? Is it good to publicize that, in a film, say? Prabhupāda: Film? Jñānagamya: In a film can we talk about these things that we . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't talk of film. You are very much in favor of film. You'd better stop that idea. Jñānagamya: It is very potent, though, for preaching. No? Prabhupāda: Some of them may be preaching. In documentary. What favorable film will do? We can show our activities; that film may be for our advertisement. Otherwise, in which way by showing film you'll make . . . (indistinct) . . .? There are so many films. They see, they see. Jñānagamya: Devotees are interested. Prabhupāda: Devotees are devotees. If you want to preach to the public, what impression they'll have? Some of our documentary film, just like we are feeding the poor, or we are working, making such things, that may be favorable. Say for we're doing something in America, the Indians may appreciate, or we are doing something in India. That's all right. There is little effect, of course, but not very much. Jñānagamya: But if we make a film to go in the movie houses all over the world, the big movie houses, not just for little schools or little groups, not just for the temple. Prabhupāda: What kind of film? Jñānagamya: A film that would show activities of devotees. And have some story . . . Prabhupāda: But you said they do not like it. Jñānagamya: No, I never said they do not like it. Prabhupāda: You said that sense gratification. How they'll appreciate? Jñānagamya: They will appreciate. It is something new, it is very different, it is very beautiful and attractive. Prabhupāda: Of course, I cannot understand. But you . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the favorable condition of film? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jñānagamya Prabhu is interested in making a very big film. Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter? Ātreya Ṛṣi: The subject matter is devotees in Kṛṣṇa consciousness: how they learn, how they study, how they go on saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: They are seeing already. Jñānagamya: They are seeing in real life, but so many people, they do not know of devotees, and films would go to every little town and village. And there would be chanting in the film, and there would be interest in what the devotees are doing. Prabhupāda: But their opinion is not in favor, as you said. Jñānagamya: (laughs) But the film can change the opinion. Many times . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . how they can change? Jñānagamya: Great books have done this. Uncle Tom's Cabin started a whole war against slavery in the United States. Books and films are very potent. They can make public opinion. Prabhupāda: Books are different thing. We are publishing. Jñānagamya: In America the Negro situation was very bad, and they made many films showing heroic Negroes, and now the situation is much better. The people are not so much agitated by seeing Negroes. They think, "Oh, now a Negro has some good qualities." Because of these films they have come to appreciate. So like that, if a devotee is a hero they will also appreciate. Prabhupāda: You judge. I don't appreciate. I don't think the Negro question is solved. Jñānagamya: No, it's not, but it is making steps to that end. Prabhupāda: The whites, they do not like the Negroes still. Wherever there are Negroes, in that quarter the whites do not go in. Is it not? They do not go. Although they have been given equal right, but at heart the whites, they do not like it. Is there any improvement? I don't think. So officially, "Yes, yes, you are good, I am good." *Nava*-yauvana: Because people are still on the bodily conception of life, so they are threatened. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real disease. So long one is situated in the bodily concept of life, he is animal. First of all, you have to educate them. That is the difficulty. Jñānagamya: But we are not Negroes. We are actually devotees, and we are very attractive, and we have all good qualities. And people do not have to be afraid to come into our section of town; we will not kill them. That is why they are afraid of the Negroes. So we actually have good things to offer. Prabhupāda: That is by your behavior, not by showing the film. Ātreya Ṛṣi: One of the points, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you're making, if I understand correctly, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is like gold, like diamond. If someone is sincere, they will come. When they are selling cigarettes or Negroes or cars, they make films. But with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have the books, which are paramparā . And we have ourselves as example. If we can be paramparā and we can be good example . . . Prabhupāda: That is my opinion, that instead of spending so much money for films, if you spend some money for propagation of book distribution . . . any advertisement is good, it never goes in vain, but the film advertisement is very expensive. Very, very expensive. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya . It is very true. Very expensive and very much endeavor. Prabhupāda: Advertisement never goes in vain, that's a fact. But if it is too much expensive, it touches our financial position. Hari-śauri: And then there's no certainty that it will be a success anyway. Jñānagamya: There is a method. There is a method . . . *Prabhupāda: Suppose there is little success, but in comparison to the money expended, that success is little. Just like I, in the beginning, I advertised my books in the Times of New York Times. They charged me sixty*-three dollars, a small space. So there was inquiry, not order. Three inquiries, not even order. I have got this experience. For me, at that time, sixty-three dollars were too much. So I did not get any response. That is my practical experience. I got three inquiries, not even order. But the Times, New York Times , they have got millions of customers and millions of readers, but I got three inquiries only. Ātreya Ṛṣi: To find those few potential devotees that are in . . . let us assume, in New York, big city, there were a few potential devotees, and materially speaking, it may be very difficult to find them. But when the devotee is sincere, Kṛṣṇa will give opportunity that those people will be found, even if they are one in that big city. Kṛṣṇa will arrange that they will find a pure devotee if they are sincere. So no material advertising will accomplish the task. Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that it is only for the fortunate persons. But we must present. Only the fortunate will come forward. We cannot expect that everyone will come. That is not possible. Jñānagamya: But you said to make everyone fortunate. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is by your preaching. That we have to do. We are doing that. That I have given the example, Nityānanda Prabhu. He faced rebellion, and by His power converted the Jagāi*-Mādhāi, by chanting. They injured, Jagāi-Mādhāi injured, and Nityānanda Prabhu said: "Never mind you have injured Me, please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not advertisement, that is personal behavior. Jñānagamya: In Dallas where I was there's a town next door, there are many rich Baptists, Fort Worth. They have big studio for producing many different films, television shows about Christian . . . Prabhupāda: These Christian people, they have got money, and still the churches are being closed. What is the effect? Jñānagamya: They have no potency to their message. It's not the medium, it's their message. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, by their advertisement, the effect is the churches are being closed. Eh? Is it not? Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is correct. Jñānagamya: But there is also a movement in America, in Christianity, but they do not want to go to church. They want to be Christians, but not go to church. Prabhupāda: That means it has no effect. (pause) Prabhupāda: Now talk about something substantial. Yesterday we were talking about the proprietorship of God. So if people are interested to talk like gentlemen, how they can refute the proprietorship of God of everything? Talk on this point. Jñānagamya: They say God has given us everything for our pleasure, that God is not worried about whether He owns it or not, He simply wants to give to us. Prabhupāda: That is your idea. But if I am proprietor of something, I must keep my right. It is not that . . . suppose I am proprietor of this house, and there is a nice garden. I allow my friends and relatives or family to use it. But when they misuse it, shall I remain silent? If I am proprietor, when things are being misused, shall I remain silent? When you misuse it and if I chastise you, how you can say that, "You have given to us. Whatever we like we can do. Why you are protesting?" Can they say like that? Jñānagamya: No. Prabhupāda: You say that God has given us, so therefore we can do. There is no need of God. That is your argument, is it not? What that argument? *Nava*-yauvana: God has given all these things. Prabhupāda: God has given us all these things, but does it mean that if you misuse it and God will see only silently? Does it mean that? *Nava*-yauvana: No. Prabhupāda: Then how you can say that you can do it as you like? God has given us? Jñānagamya: They don't understand how God chastises when they misuse. They don't understand karma . Prabhupāda: That means shameless. They are being chastised at every step, and they don't think it is chastisement. They are shameless fools. *Nava*-yauvana: And also they blame God. They say God is injust. Then they say God is injust. Prabhupāda: And when they are chastised, then God is injust. This is their position. You cannot deny the proprietorship of God. That is not possible. If you misuse it, then you'll be chastised. You'll be chastised. Even in that park, the park is owned by the government. You cannot pluck any flower without the permission. You can use it. You can go there and sit there, enjoy it, but if it is prohibited that nobody can pluck flower, if you do it, then it is criminal. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God, so you can utilize it, God's favor, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā , according to His instruction. Suppose there are many persons coming in the park. You cannot prohibit anyone to come into the park. As you have entered, "Yes." But you have made laws like that. What is this immigration? Artificial prohibition. Everything is God's property. Anyone can go anywhere. Why you have made this immigration department, "Don't come here"? Jñānagamya: They say it is to protect the people who are here. Prabhupāda: Then why you came here? The Americans, why they went to America and killed the Indians? And now they have become proprietor, "Don't come here." Jñānagamya: They allow some, and then they differentiate, they try to see who is going to be a . . . Prabhupāda: That means you are violating the laws of God. Every place is God's place, so you're all God's sons. You can go anywhere. Unless I do something, harm you, you cannot check me. In the airport, everyone is checked. That means everyone is dishonest. Nowadays everyone is checked. So in the airport, the passengers are . . . at least it is to be supposed they are paying so much, the airport authorities accept you as you are dishonest, checking, be checked. This is the effect of your education: everyone is dishonest. (lamb bleating in background) Why the lamb is crying? Eh? The lamb? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they have lamb. Prabhupāda: So they do not give the lamb to eat something? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They . . . I don't know. Maybe they took the mother away or something. Prabhupāda: No, I hear this sound always somewhere. No, they keep the lambs for killing, eh? But before killing, do they not supply any food? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They're very cruel. Prabhupāda: They starve? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They don't have any human qualification. Prabhupāda: Human qualification there is not, otherwise how they are killing? Killing means they have no human qualification. Animal qualification. "I want you to eat," huh? You know that Aesop's Fable story? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Which story? Prabhupāda: There was a lake. So one small lamb was drinking water on the other side, and this side another tiger. So the tiger challenged that, "Why you are muddying the water." So he said, "Sir, I am here, long away. I am not muddying." So anyway, he picked up some quarrel and killed him. So the idea was to kill him, but he picked up some . . . find out some fault. So anyone finding out. This man who wants to kill somebody else, he's not man, he's animal. "Give the dog a bad name and hang it." That English proverb? You try to discuss on this point, how people can refuse the proprietorship of God. That is a very good point for preaching. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Everything belongs to God. That's a fact. (pause) Prabhupāda: (to Hari-śauri) Sleeping? Meditating? Either sleeping or meditating, what is the real fact? Meditating or sleeping? Hari-śauri: I'm not feeling sleepy, anyway. Prabhupāda: Meditating. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hari-śauri Prabhu works very hard, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He's a very first class servant. Prabhupāda: Yes. ( japa ) Dayānanda: Prabhupāda, they say that the problem is that, the problem of the world is that humanity should be one, everyone should think of things as belonging to humanity, and that religion and different governments have made humanity sectarian and divided up, and people think in terms of . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. We are not such kind of religionist. We say that everything belongs to God and everyone is son of God. We don't say like that. Dayānanda: But they say: "We don't believe in God, we believe in humanity." Prabhupāda: What is the difference? Dayānanda: The difference is that humanity is tangible, it's something we can understand, but God we cannot understand. Prabhupāda: So we are also tangible, but we are more advanced. How you can . . . wherefrom the humanity came, the next question will be. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Wherefrom the human being came? Hmm? (about fanning) Do little. Hari-śauri: Just a little? Prabhupāda: Yes, not little; so that the flies may not come. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Stronger, stronger. Dayānanda: But they say we don't care about where humanity came, it's just that we are here and we have to deal practically with this worldly situation. Prabhupāda: What you are doing practically? You are fighting only. Every ten years after you are fighting. What you have done? Dayānanda: The fighting, they say, comes because humanity is divided into sectarian groups. Prabhupāda: That is your . . . you have done it. You are also one of the members of the . . . how you can check it? It is your fault. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They want brotherhood amongst men. There is no way . . . Prabhupāda: But without father. Brotherhood without father. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Impractical. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? You don't accept father, where is the question of brotherhood? If there is father, and we are sons, we are brothers. If there is no father, then where is the question of brotherhood? Hari-śauri: Even the Communists are fighting amongst themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you accept the father, where is the question of brother? Artificial brotherhood. *Nava*-yauvana: Just look at the United Nations, how they are brothers. Prabhupāda: You think they're united? *Nava*-yauvana: No, they . . . Prabhupāda: They are all dogs barking, that's all. I said in the public. Some dogs are brought together, and they are barking. That's all. Where is the unity? That is the fact. If you bring some dogs of this quarter and ask them, "Please live peacefully," will they do that? Why they cannot do it? You bring some dogs, neighborhood, and ask them, "Don't bark. Live together peacefully." Will they be able to do that? What do you think? Dayānanda: No, it is their nature. *Prabhupāda: So if you keep them dog there cannot be any peace. You make them human being actually, then there will be peace. So they are keeping them as dogs. So they will go on barking. That's all. All these members of the United Nations, everyone is thinking in the bodily concept, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Chinese." So how there will be unity? There cannot be. That is we are proposing, that don't think in the bodily concept of life. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati (BG 18.54): that we are teaching. But they are thinking they have gone to the United Nation, but they are keeping themselves as dogs. There cannot be any peace. They must go on barking against one another. That's all. *Nava*-yauvana: They are thinking that they have to protect their so-called interest. Prabhupāda: So the dog is also thinking. From three miles he begins to bark, "Why you are coming here? Don't come. I am protecting my interest." That mentality is there in the dog; so how you are greater than the dog? *Nava*-yauvana: But the devotee, he is thinking that the proprietor is protecting his interest. Prabhupāda: Anyway, that kind of interest is felt by the dog. It is not very astonishing thing. In that mentality you cannot bring in unity. That is not possible. Dayānanda: But they accept that there is some good quality in humanity. They say that that is inherent in humanity, that we need to worship . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that good quality is God consciousness. So unless humanity comes to the position of God consciousness, unless he thinks that everything belongs to God, there is no question of humanity. That is "doganity," doggish mentality. Humanity means that he understands that "Everything belongs to God. I am servant of God." That is humanity. Otherwise, there is no question of humanity. If you think like dog, where is humanity? Dayānanda: They think that everything belongs to humanity as a group. Prabhupāda: But that is not practical. Everything belonging to the humanity, then why you are making divisions of nations? Dayānanda: That's what they say, that that is the problem, the divisions of nations. *Prabhupāda: And the problem will continue, because you are taking account a section of living entity. You, because you have no idea of dog and other animals, what they are, they are also sons of God. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ . Unless you come to this understanding, there is no question of humanity. This is the humanity understanding. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ . Harikeśa: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." *Prabhupāda: That's all. You are trying to unify the so*-called human beings, but you are keeping the poor animals for cutting their throat. This is your humanity. Because these poor animals cannot protest, so you are strong. And this is your humanity—you cut their throat and eat. But that is not humanity. Humanity is here mentioned: God is the seed-giving father all living entities. That is the fact. That is humanity. They do not know what is meaning by humanity. Here is the explanation, humanity. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Unless you come to that stage, there is no question of humanity. Artificially, you manufacture something and you think humanity. According to your convenience, "Let us combine together and exploit other living entities for our benefit." That is not humanity. They do not know what is humanity. Here is the explanation. How humanity can be established unless there is the understanding of the supreme father, how there is question of . . . how this question of brotherhood can come in? Here Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the seed-giving father." So you try to understand this, then humanity. You cannot manufacture some ideas of humanity, imperfect, because you are imperfect. Here is perfect idea. Dayānanda: So how can we be convinced that this is perfect or that it's practical? Because both ideas seem to us to be theoretical. This idea of humanity as . . . *Prabhupāda: Theoretical? How it is theoretical? It is practical. You have no intelligence. Your . . . you say this is also theoretical. Did you not say? I say it is practical. It is practical. From that verse, if you have got brain, you study, you'll see that it is practical if you are intelligent. But if you are dull, then you'll not understand. How it is practical? Here Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the seed-giving father." So do you think it is theoretical? Do you think? Dayānanda: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I don't . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, for argument's sake. Dayānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Unless there is a seed*-giving father, how it is possible of a child simply by the mother? Is there any practical example? If one girl has given birth to a child, do you think the child is born without father? Eh? Is it possible? Dayānanda: No. *Prabhupāda: Therefore when Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the seed*-giving father," what is the wrong there? No living entity can take birth without being seed-given by the father. Everywhere you see that without seed-giving father how a child can take birth? Dayānanda: But how can we accept that situation? Perhaps the creation is a special circumstance? Prabhupāda: No, no. No special. "Perhaps," this is impractical. Why do you say "perhaps"? That is nonsense. As soon as you say "perhaps," then you are rascal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You'll have to show a practical example. *Prabhupāda: Yes, when you talking of practical things and you bring argument, "perhaps," then you are rascal, immediately. Give practical example, no "perhaps," "maybe." No. That argument will not do. These rascals are giving that argument, "perhaps," "maybe." That is not argument. Be practical when you talk of practical things. Practically you do not see that without father there is any child born. No. Either in the animals or in the human beings or in the birds—everywhere, seed*-giving father is there. Hari-śauri: Freud's idea . . . Freud admitted that, that we are all like children, but his philosophy was that the children have to grow up and go out and look after themselves. They can't remain dependent on the father forever, so they have to grow up and face the world. Prabhupāda: That is another rascal. Because everyone, every living entity is dependent on the father's arrangement. God is the supreme father. He was a Christian or not, Freud? Hari-śauri: I don't know what he was. Prabhupāda: What he was? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He was mainly Freudian. He believed in himself. Hari-śauri: He had his own philosophy. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He was Christian, yes . . . Prabhupāda: Christian. So why the Christian go and . . . go to the father, "Give us our daily bread"? That means that you are dependent on father. How you can say independent? Hari-śauri: But that's the point, that we have to grow up and become dependent on our own work. Prabhupāda: No. The Vedic injunction is eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God means He's supplying the necessities of all His sons. That is God. And that is practical. You are dependent. The animals, they are dependent on grass. So wherefrom the grass is coming? Why that land is deserted and this land is green place? Can you change it? Why you don't change the desert to be green? So if you think that, "I'm living on animal. I don't care for grass," but the animal depending on grass, and the grass is depending on God's mercy. So how you can say you are not dependent on God? You are dependent. But because you are a rascal fraud, you want to cheat and become a Freud, that's all. You are a great fraud, therefore you're talking like that. You are dependent on God in every step. You cannot be independent. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra . Find out this verse. That is fraud. He's thinking independently. He's not independent. Harikeśa: "The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities which are in actuality carried out by nature." *Prabhupāda: So how we are independent? Did Mr. Freud not die? When prakṛti , nature, kicked on his face, he immediately died. So how he's independent? These rascals have created all troubles. The so*-called rascal philosophers, scientists, politicians, they have created all troubles. He's completely dependent on nature, on the laws of nature, and still he says: "I am independent. I have grown up." What you have grown up? You have grown up as a great fool, that's all. You have not grown up to be intelligent. You have grown up a great rascal, that's all. So refute them in this way, then you'll be preacher. So what is your argument about humanity? Dayānanda: Well, if God is, as you say . . . Prabhupāda: God is the father. Dayānanda: If God is meant to be propitiated, then why is it that we have so many things for our enjoyment? You say that everything is for God's enjoyment. *Prabhupāda: Yes, God has given you enjoyment, but you cannot enjoy yourself, alone. There are other sons, they will also enjoy. If you interfere with other sons, then you'll be punished. God's son is the lamb, and you let him enjoy, you also enjoy. But if you interfere with his right, then you'll be punished. That is God's law. Sarva*-yoniṣu , God is not only your father, he's father of the lamb also. So if by your brute force you want to kill the poor lamb, then you'll be punished. This is natural. You have got your food; you produce your foodgrain and you eat. Why should you eat another animal? God says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), you must eat to become strong. But that does not mean you'll eat another brother. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1): whatever He has designated, you eat like that. You are human being, you can produce food. You grow foodstuffs, rice, wheat, fruit, flowers, vegetables. That is allowed. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . You produce anna; why should you kill an animal? And offer it to Kṛṣṇa, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). He never says that, "You give Me an animal." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam . So you produce patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam , and offer to Kṛṣṇa, and then take. Dayānanda: In our experience we have no understanding how this can be practical, because we think that meat is good for our strength. How can we be strong? Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are not human being; you are animal. If you cannot produce your food . . . uncivilized animals, they cannot produce their food. But you are given the chance of becoming human being. If you cannot produce your food, if you do not know how to cook food, how to offer it, then you are not human being; you are animal. When the uncivilized man in the jungle, they did not know how to produce food, they used to kill animals. So if you want to remain in the same uncivilized status of life, then where you are human being? You have got greater intelligence. You produce your food. Why should you kill animal like the uncivilized jungle men? Your action is just like jungle man, and you are claiming to be civilized man. *Nava*-yauvana: Because they are thinking that they are the proprietor. Prabhupāda: That is their folly. They are not proprietor. They are not proprietor. That is already discussed. Proprietor is the Supreme Lord; you are not proprietor. That is another point. Falsely you are claiming proprietor. How you are proprietor? Everyone can claim proprietor, and that is going on. Everyone is claiming proprietor and they are fighting. That is going on. And if you accept God is proprietor and we are dependent on Him, then there is no fight. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā . This īśa, Īśopanisad verse is perfectly describing, tena tyaktena : you are not proprietor. You accept things what the proprietor has given you, allotted for you. You are not proprietor. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā . Do not encroach upon others. Then how you become proprietor? We are falsely claiming proprietorship; we are encroaching upon others' independence. This is our business. How there can be peace? It is not possible. This property is walled, that property is walled. You cannot encroach on the other side of the wall. Then it is criminal, trespassing. The government's duty is to see that nobody's encroaching on others. Similarly, God's duty is that, that everyone is God's son, you don't encroach upon other son's right, then you'll be punished. You have got right to live and the lamb has got right to live. Why should you encroach upon his living right? Because you are strong? That is not humanity. The animal is there for benefit. Let him live, and you take the fur. You can use it for your coat. But why should you kill it? The cow is giving milk like mother, why should you kill it? This is humanity, to kill the mother? So in this way we are encroaching the rights of others, and we are becoming subject to be punished by God. This is going on. You may say there is no God, but God is there; you'll be punished. The outlaws, they will say: "We don't care for government." You may say so, but government will take action. You cannot avoid it. This is humanity. Good citizenship means one who knows the laws of the state. That is good citizen. If one does not know the laws of the state, he's a fool; he's not a good citizen. One who knows the law, he keeps right and left, he knows this is the order of the government, cars should be driven on the right side or left side, he is good citizen. One who does not know the law of the state, he's not a good citizen. He's a fool, rascal, what to speak of humanity. Dayānanda: Some people say . . . so we will even say, "I don't care for your rational arguments." Some people say, "I don't care for your . . ." Prabhupāda: Then you are animal, because animal has no rationality. Then you are animal. Better not to talk with you. What is the use of talking with you? You are animal. You have no rationality. Man is rational animal, this is the definition. You have no rationality, therefore you are animal. What is the use of talking with you? Waste time. If you have no rationality, then you are animal. That is the difficulty. People are kept in the status of animal, and they are expected human behavior. How it is possible? It is not possible. So therefore our endeavor is to bring them to the standard of humanity, real humanity. Then there will be peace, prosperity, everything all right. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You don't care for rationality, that means you are animal. Man is rational animal. That is the definition. If you have no rationality . . . dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ . . . this is Vedic injunction. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samāna (Hitopadeśa). Anyone who has no religious principle, he's animal. Therefore you'll find in human society, it doesn't matter whether it is Iran or India or Europe, there is some religion. Because without religion they are animals. Animal has no religion. The animal is . . . dog is dog. It is not a Christian dog or a Hindu dog. Hindu, Christian comes when they are human being. So a civilized society must have the rationality, religion. Religion is rationality, to accept God. What is religion? Religion means to accept God. Dayānanda: They say that, "You may have so many wonderful philosophies, but our desire is just to enjoy life." Prabhupāda: That means animal. That means animal. Animal has no philosophy. *Nava*-yauvana: Also they say that religions are the causes of war. In Lebanon now the Christians are killing the Muslims and the Muslims are killing the Christians, in the name of . . . Prabhupāda: And the Communists are killing capitalists and capitalists are killing Communists. What is that? Is that religion? Then? So how you can stop war? Because you are animal, you fight, you can give some name, either on religious ground or this philosophical ground. But because you are animal you will fight. You can give a different name. That is different thing. But because you are dogs, you'll fight. The real religion is why they will fight? Religion means to accept God. So if you are Muslim, I am Hindu, if I accept God, if you accept God, then where is fight? If we accept that God is the proprietor, God is the father, then where is the question of fight? Because we are not religious, therefore fight. Otherwise, if you accept God is the supreme father, if I accept God is the supreme, why fight? (pause) Prabhupāda: So we have to go down? *Nava*-yauvana: Everything you say, Prabhupāda, makes sense. Everything you say makes sense. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our preaching should be sensible, then people will accept. After all, they are human being. There is sense, but by force they are covering the sense. So we have to awaken them by handling carefully, that's all. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo gauracānda bole. Who are . . . uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpya varan nibodhata (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.3.14). They are sleeping. We have awaken them, that's it. That is preaching. Even the animal*-killing, where it is absolutely necessary . . . so according to any religious principle, there is God. Just like who was telling me? You were telling me about the lamb killing? The injunction is that the mouth should be toward Mecca. Is it like that? *Nava*-yauvana: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So because there is no other way . . . suppose in the desert, what they'll do? They must eat something. But still there is sense of God, there is some regulative principle. Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is also principle of sacrifice with very strict regulations. Prabhupāda: So in this way God consciousness must be there. That is civilization. Hari-śauri: You want to go down, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) (end) *Nava*-yauvana: Many people, when they see the devotees, they are confused, and they think that the devotees are engaged in some kind of ritualistic activity, that the chanting and practices of devotees are ritualistic, and they compare it to their own rituals and they don't see any distinction. So they see it as sectarian. Prabhupāda: What they want? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Some of them are not sincere, so they simply want to find fault. But those who are sincere can be encouraged to . . . *Nava*-yauvana: They are all wanting material things. Like in Bhagavad-gītā , there is the verse, traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ ( BG 2.45). Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna to rise above the scriptures, the flowery words of the Vedas . *Prabhupāda: Well, they are not concerned with the Bhagavad*-gītā . You cannot quote from Bhagavad-gītā to instruct these rascals. You have to talk with them with common sense. Their charge is . . . what is their charge? That you are engaged in ritualistic ceremonies? *Nava*-yauvana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what they want us to do? If you don't want me to do this, then you must say what you want me to do. Is it not right? Suppose I am chanting. If you don't want me to chant, then what do you want me to do, the next question will be. Jñānagamya: They want us to engage in sense gratification like they are engaged. That is what they want. Prabhupāda: Want . . . we want that, if you want me to do like you, then I want you to do like me. If you want me to accept your proposal, why you'll not accept my proposal? Jñānagamya: Because if I think that sense gratification is better, then I want . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. You think sense gratification is better, I think sense gratification is bad. Jñānagamya: How can we tell the difference? How can we know which is better? Prabhupāda: No, there is difference. Why you want me to do like you? Then I shall want you to do like me. Jñānagamya: I say it because I want you to enjoy sense gratification. Prabhupāda: No, I am not going to accept you. Because you are not accepting my principles, so why shall I accept your principles? Jñānagamya: But your principle is austere, it's not nice. Prabhupāda: So that you say. Jñānagamya: That's what they say. Prabhupāda: They say, but we say you are bad, that you are enjoying simply sense gratification. Jñānagamya: They say what is wrong? Prabhupāda: No, what is wrong to us? It is your judgment that we are wrong. So my judgment you are wrong. Who will decide who is right? Eh? Ātreya Ṛṣi? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: If you judge me I am wrong, I am judging you are wrong. So if you don't want me to do like this, I also don't want you. Then where is the decision? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Actually, these people mentally understand that sense gratification is wrong, but they are so polluted that they are on the . . . Prabhupāda: No, for argument's sake. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . mental platform. Prabhupāda: If you want me to do like you, I also want you to do like me. You cannot find fault with me by saying that I am not acting like you, sense gratification. If you are acting in your way, I am acting in my way. Jñānagamya: It's relative on that platform. Prabhupāda: But if you want philosophy, the aim of life, the destination of life, then we can talk, what is the destination of life, what is required. If you criticize me, then I can criticize you also. Jñānagamya: Then we must take it to the absolute platform in order to actually have a sincere argument, to make a sincere decision. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no end of such things. Therefore unless one accepts a person guru , there is no need of talking. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Unless one accepts somebody as guru , the instruction will not be fruitful. Just like Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa as guru . So long he was talking as friend, it was not effective. Arjuna therefore decided . . . find out that verse, kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ . Harikeśa: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me." Prabhupāda: This is the position. Unless one feels like that and asks somebody, a superior, accepts him as guru , there is no use talking. It will not be useful. Jñānagamya: That's what you say in the purport. Prabhupāda: This is the position. If the injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12), if anyone is interested to know about the transcendental subject matter, he must approach a guru . And unless one approaches a guru , he cannot understand. And if by force I become guru , he may not be interested. This is the position. But still, for a preacher, he has to do something against all odds. That is preaching. You cannot expect favorable position. Your question was that we go and they say like this, but you cannot expect that wherever you are going you'll find favorable situation to talk. That you must understand. But you'll have to preach; you have to create favorable situation. That is your duty. You cannot expect, if they are not prepared to take good instruction. Where is that fan? Hari-śauri: He's bringing it. *Prabhupāda: You cannot expect favorable situation. It is not possible. When I came in America, I never expected any favorable situation. I wrote that poetry in disappointment that, "Who will accept this?" That is the position. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, gradually it will become a favorable situation, but don't expect any favorable situation. You have to handle unfavorable situation and make favorable situation to preach. That is preaching. Any business. (to devotee fanning) Just on the head. Just see, there is flies. So Nityānanda Prabhu, He went to preach to Jagāi*-Mādhāi. There was no favorable situation. They were drunkards. They caused injury on the body of Nityānanda Prabhu. So this is preaching with only unfavorable situation. You cannot expect favorable situation. And still you have to preach. That is preaching. They will speak like madman, so many things. They are mad, after all. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). They have no sense. All materialistic persons are madmen. Still, by the order of superior, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we have to do this preaching work. Actually, the American boys are fighting against so many unfavorable situations. They are sometimes beaten in the airport, you know that? Still they are preaching. That is preaching. That is preaching. "The unfavorable situation, so let me give it up," that is not preaching. Yes, we must know that there is unfavorable situation, still I have to do. That depends on your brain, how to tackle. You cannot expect favorable situation. Jñānagamya: Is it good to publicize these situations, Prabhupāda, that we are encountering so much difficulty? Is it good to publicize that, in a film, say? Prabhupāda: Film? Jñānagamya: In a film can we talk about these things that we . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't talk of film. You are very much in favor of film. You'd better stop that idea. Jñānagamya: It is very potent, though, for preaching. No? Prabhupāda: Some of them may be preaching. In documentary. What favorable film will do? We can show our activities; that film may be for our advertisement. Otherwise, in which way by showing film you'll make . . . (indistinct) . . .? There are so many films. They see, they see. Jñānagamya: Devotees are interested. Prabhupāda: Devotees are devotees. If you want to preach to the public, what impression they'll have? Some of our documentary film, just like we are feeding the poor, or we are working, making such things, that may be favorable. Say for we're doing something in America, the Indians may appreciate, or we are doing something in India. That's all right. There is little effect, of course, but not very much. Jñānagamya: But if we make a film to go in the movie houses all over the world, the big movie houses, not just for little schools or little groups, not just for the temple. Prabhupāda: What kind of film? Jñānagamya: A film that would show activities of devotees. And have some story . . . Prabhupāda: But you said they do not like it. Jñānagamya: No, I never said they do not like it. Prabhupāda: You said that sense gratification. How they'll appreciate? Jñānagamya: They will appreciate. It is something new, it is very different, it is very beautiful and attractive. Prabhupāda: Of course, I cannot understand. But you . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the favorable condition of film? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jñānagamya Prabhu is interested in making a very big film. Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter? Ātreya Ṛṣi: The subject matter is devotees in Kṛṣṇa consciousness: how they learn, how they study, how they go on saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: They are seeing already. Jñānagamya: They are seeing in real life, but so many people, they do not know of devotees, and films would go to every little town and village. And there would be chanting in the film, and there would be interest in what the devotees are doing. Prabhupāda: But their opinion is not in favor, as you said. Jñānagamya: (laughs) But the film can change the opinion. Many times . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . how they can change? Jñānagamya: Great books have done this. Uncle Tom's Cabin started a whole war against slavery in the United States. Books and films are very potent. They can make public opinion. Prabhupāda: Books are different thing. We are publishing. Jñānagamya: In America the Negro situation was very bad, and they made many films showing heroic Negroes, and now the situation is much better. The people are not so much agitated by seeing Negroes. They think, "Oh, now a Negro has some good qualities." Because of these films they have come to appreciate. So like that, if a devotee is a hero they will also appreciate. Prabhupāda: You judge. I don't appreciate. I don't think the Negro question is solved. Jñānagamya: No, it's not, but it is making steps to that end. Prabhupāda: The whites, they do not like the Negroes still. Wherever there are Negroes, in that quarter the whites do not go in. Is it not? They do not go. Although they have been given equal right, but at heart the whites, they do not like it. Is there any improvement? I don't think. So officially, "Yes, yes, you are good, I am good." *Nava*-yauvana: Because people are still on the bodily conception of life, so they are threatened. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real disease. So long one is situated in the bodily concept of life, he is animal. First of all, you have to educate them. That is the difficulty. Jñānagamya: But we are not Negroes. We are actually devotees, and we are very attractive, and we have all good qualities. And people do not have to be afraid to come into our section of town; we will not kill them. That is why they are afraid of the Negroes. So we actually have good things to offer. Prabhupāda: That is by your behavior, not by showing the film. Ātreya Ṛṣi: One of the points, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you're making, if I understand correctly, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is like gold, like diamond. If someone is sincere, they will come. When they are selling cigarettes or Negroes or cars, they make films. But with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have the books, which are paramparā . And we have ourselves as example. If we can be paramparā and we can be good example . . . Prabhupāda: That is my opinion, that instead of spending so much money for films, if you spend some money for propagation of book distribution . . . any advertisement is good, it never goes in vain, but the film advertisement is very expensive. Very, very expensive. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya . It is very true. Very expensive and very much endeavor. Prabhupāda: Advertisement never goes in vain, that's a fact. But if it is too much expensive, it touches our financial position. Hari-śauri: And then there's no certainty that it will be a success anyway. Jñānagamya: There is a method. There is a method . . . *Prabhupāda: Suppose there is little success, but in comparison to the money expended, that success is little. Just like I, in the beginning, I advertised my books in the Times of New York Times. They charged me sixty*-three dollars, a small space. So there was inquiry, not order. Three inquiries, not even order. I have got this experience. For me, at that time, sixty-three dollars were too much. So I did not get any response. That is my practical experience. I got three inquiries, not even order. But the Times, New York Times , they have got millions of customers and millions of readers, but I got three inquiries only. Ātreya Ṛṣi: To find those few potential devotees that are in . . . let us assume, in New York, big city, there were a few potential devotees, and materially speaking, it may be very difficult to find them. But when the devotee is sincere, Kṛṣṇa will give opportunity that those people will be found, even if they are one in that big city. Kṛṣṇa will arrange that they will find a pure devotee if they are sincere. So no material advertising will accomplish the task. Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that it is only for the fortunate persons. But we must present. Only the fortunate will come forward. We cannot expect that everyone will come. That is not possible. Jñānagamya: But you said to make everyone fortunate. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is by your preaching. That we have to do. We are doing that. That I have given the example, Nityānanda Prabhu. He faced rebellion, and by His power converted the Jagāi*-Mādhāi, by chanting. They injured, Jagāi-Mādhāi injured, and Nityānanda Prabhu said: "Never mind you have injured Me, please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not advertisement, that is personal behavior. Jñānagamya: In Dallas where I was there's a town next door, there are many rich Baptists, Fort Worth. They have big studio for producing many different films, television shows about Christian . . . Prabhupāda: These Christian people, they have got money, and still the churches are being closed. What is the effect? Jñānagamya: They have no potency to their message. It's not the medium, it's their message. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, by their advertisement, the effect is the churches are being closed. Eh? Is it not? Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is correct. Jñānagamya: But there is also a movement in America, in Christianity, but they do not want to go to church. They want to be Christians, but not go to church. Prabhupāda: That means it has no effect. (pause) Prabhupāda: Now talk about something substantial. Yesterday we were talking about the proprietorship of God. So if people are interested to talk like gentlemen, how they can refute the proprietorship of God of everything? Talk on this point. Jñānagamya: They say God has given us everything for our pleasure, that God is not worried about whether He owns it or not, He simply wants to give to us. Prabhupāda: That is your idea. But if I am proprietor of something, I must keep my right. It is not that . . . suppose I am proprietor of this house, and there is a nice garden. I allow my friends and relatives or family to use it. But when they misuse it, shall I remain silent? If I am proprietor, when things are being misused, shall I remain silent? When you misuse it and if I chastise you, how you can say that, "You have given to us. Whatever we like we can do. Why you are protesting?" Can they say like that? Jñānagamya: No. Prabhupāda: You say that God has given us, so therefore we can do. There is no need of God. That is your argument, is it not? What that argument? *Nava*-yauvana: God has given all these things. Prabhupāda: God has given us all these things, but does it mean that if you misuse it and God will see only silently? Does it mean that? *Nava*-yauvana: No. Prabhupāda: Then how you can say that you can do it as you like? God has given us? Jñānagamya: They don't understand how God chastises when they misuse. They don't understand karma . Prabhupāda: That means shameless. They are being chastised at every step, and they don't think it is chastisement. They are shameless fools. *Nava*-yauvana: And also they blame God. They say God is injust. Then they say God is injust. Prabhupāda: And when they are chastised, then God is injust. This is their position. You cannot deny the proprietorship of God. That is not possible. If you misuse it, then you'll be chastised. You'll be chastised. Even in that park, the park is owned by the government. You cannot pluck any flower without the permission. You can use it. You can go there and sit there, enjoy it, but if it is prohibited that nobody can pluck flower, if you do it, then it is criminal. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God, so you can utilize it, God's favor, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā , according to His instruction. Suppose there are many persons coming in the park. You cannot prohibit anyone to come into the park. As you have entered, "Yes." But you have made laws like that. What is this immigration? Artificial prohibition. Everything is God's property. Anyone can go anywhere. Why you have made this immigration department, "Don't come here"? Jñānagamya: They say it is to protect the people who are here. Prabhupāda: Then why you came here? The Americans, why they went to America and killed the Indians? And now they have become proprietor, "Don't come here." Jñānagamya: They allow some, and then they differentiate, they try to see who is going to be a . . . Prabhupāda: That means you are violating the laws of God. Every place is God's place, so you're all God's sons. You can go anywhere. Unless I do something, harm you, you cannot check me. In the airport, everyone is checked. That means everyone is dishonest. Nowadays everyone is checked. So in the airport, the passengers are . . . at least it is to be supposed they are paying so much, the airport authorities accept you as you are dishonest, checking, be checked. This is the effect of your education: everyone is dishonest. (lamb bleating in background) Why the lamb is crying? Eh? The lamb? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they have lamb. Prabhupāda: So they do not give the lamb to eat something? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They . . . I don't know. Maybe they took the mother away or something. Prabhupāda: No, I hear this sound always somewhere. No, they keep the lambs for killing, eh? But before killing, do they not supply any food? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They're very cruel. Prabhupāda: They starve? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They don't have any human qualification. Prabhupāda: Human qualification there is not, otherwise how they are killing? Killing means they have no human qualification. Animal qualification. "I want you to eat," huh? You know that Aesop's Fable story? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Which story? Prabhupāda: There was a lake. So one small lamb was drinking water on the other side, and this side another tiger. So the tiger challenged that, "Why you are muddying the water." So he said, "Sir, I am here, long away. I am not muddying." So anyway, he picked up some quarrel and killed him. So the idea was to kill him, but he picked up some . . . find out some fault. So anyone finding out. This man who wants to kill somebody else, he's not man, he's animal. "Give the dog a bad name and hang it." That English proverb? You try to discuss on this point, how people can refuse the proprietorship of God. That is a very good point for preaching. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Everything belongs to God. That's a fact. (pause) Prabhupāda: (to Hari-śauri) Sleeping? Meditating? Either sleeping or meditating, what is the real fact? Meditating or sleeping? Hari-śauri: I'm not feeling sleepy, anyway. Prabhupāda: Meditating. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hari-śauri Prabhu works very hard, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He's a very first class servant. Prabhupāda: Yes. ( japa ) Dayānanda: Prabhupāda, they say that the problem is that, the problem of the world is that humanity should be one, everyone should think of things as belonging to humanity, and that religion and different governments have made humanity sectarian and divided up, and people think in terms of . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. We are not such kind of religionist. We say that everything belongs to God and everyone is son of God. We don't say like that. Dayānanda: But they say: "We don't believe in God, we believe in humanity." Prabhupāda: What is the difference? Dayānanda: The difference is that humanity is tangible, it's something we can understand, but God we cannot understand. Prabhupāda: So we are also tangible, but we are more advanced. How you can . . . wherefrom the humanity came, the next question will be. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Wherefrom the human being came? Hmm? (about fanning) Do little. Hari-śauri: Just a little? Prabhupāda: Yes, not little; so that the flies may not come. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Stronger, stronger. Dayānanda: But they say we don't care about where humanity came, it's just that we are here and we have to deal practically with this worldly situation. Prabhupāda: What you are doing practically? You are fighting only. Every ten years after you are fighting. What you have done? Dayānanda: The fighting, they say, comes because humanity is divided into sectarian groups. Prabhupāda: That is your . . . you have done it. You are also one of the members of the . . . how you can check it? It is your fault. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They want brotherhood amongst men. There is no way . . . Prabhupāda: But without father. Brotherhood without father. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Impractical. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? You don't accept father, where is the question of brotherhood? If there is father, and we are sons, we are brothers. If there is no father, then where is the question of brotherhood? Hari-śauri: Even the Communists are fighting amongst themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you accept the father, where is the question of brother? Artificial brotherhood. *Nava*-yauvana: Just look at the United Nations, how they are brothers. Prabhupāda: You think they're united? *Nava*-yauvana: No, they . . . Prabhupāda: They are all dogs barking, that's all. I said in the public. Some dogs are brought together, and they are barking. That's all. Where is the unity? That is the fact. If you bring some dogs of this quarter and ask them, "Please live peacefully," will they do that? Why they cannot do it? You bring some dogs, neighborhood, and ask them, "Don't bark. Live together peacefully." Will they be able to do that? What do you think? Dayānanda: No, it is their nature. *Prabhupāda: So if you keep them dog there cannot be any peace. You make them human being actually, then there will be peace. So they are keeping them as dogs. So they will go on barking. That's all. All these members of the United Nations, everyone is thinking in the bodily concept, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Chinese." So how there will be unity? There cannot be. That is we are proposing, that don't think in the bodily concept of life. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati (BG 18.54): that we are teaching. But they are thinking they have gone to the United Nation, but they are keeping themselves as dogs. There cannot be any peace. They must go on barking against one another. That's all. *Nava*-yauvana: They are thinking that they have to protect their so-called interest. Prabhupāda: So the dog is also thinking. From three miles he begins to bark, "Why you are coming here? Don't come. I am protecting my interest." That mentality is there in the dog; so how you are greater than the dog? *Nava*-yauvana: But the devotee, he is thinking that the proprietor is protecting his interest. Prabhupāda: Anyway, that kind of interest is felt by the dog. It is not very astonishing thing. In that mentality you cannot bring in unity. That is not possible. Dayānanda: But they accept that there is some good quality in humanity. They say that that is inherent in humanity, that we need to worship . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that good quality is God consciousness. So unless humanity comes to the position of God consciousness, unless he thinks that everything belongs to God, there is no question of humanity. That is "doganity," doggish mentality. Humanity means that he understands that "Everything belongs to God. I am servant of God." That is humanity. Otherwise, there is no question of humanity. If you think like dog, where is humanity? Dayānanda: They think that everything belongs to humanity as a group. Prabhupāda: But that is not practical. Everything belonging to the humanity, then why you are making divisions of nations? Dayānanda: That's what they say, that that is the problem, the divisions of nations. *Prabhupāda: And the problem will continue, because you are taking account a section of living entity. You, because you have no idea of dog and other animals, what they are, they are also sons of God. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ . Unless you come to this understanding, there is no question of humanity. This is the humanity understanding. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ . Harikeśa: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." *Prabhupāda: That's all. You are trying to unify the so*-called human beings, but you are keeping the poor animals for cutting their throat. This is your humanity. Because these poor animals cannot protest, so you are strong. And this is your humanity—you cut their throat and eat. But that is not humanity. Humanity is here mentioned: God is the seed-giving father all living entities. That is the fact. That is humanity. They do not know what is meaning by humanity. Here is the explanation, humanity. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Unless you come to that stage, there is no question of humanity. Artificially, you manufacture something and you think humanity. According to your convenience, "Let us combine together and exploit other living entities for our benefit." That is not humanity. They do not know what is humanity. Here is the explanation. How humanity can be established unless there is the understanding of the supreme father, how there is question of . . . how this question of brotherhood can come in? Here Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the seed-giving father." So you try to understand this, then humanity. You cannot manufacture some ideas of humanity, imperfect, because you are imperfect. Here is perfect idea. Dayānanda: So how can we be convinced that this is perfect or that it's practical? Because both ideas seem to us to be theoretical. This idea of humanity as . . . *Prabhupāda: Theoretical? How it is theoretical? It is practical. You have no intelligence. Your . . . you say this is also theoretical. Did you not say? I say it is practical. It is practical. From that verse, if you have got brain, you study, you'll see that it is practical if you are intelligent. But if you are dull, then you'll not understand. How it is practical? Here Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the seed-giving father." So do you think it is theoretical? Do you think? Dayānanda: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I don't . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, for argument's sake. Dayānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Unless there is a seed*-giving father, how it is possible of a child simply by the mother? Is there any practical example? If one girl has given birth to a child, do you think the child is born without father? Eh? Is it possible? Dayānanda: No. *Prabhupāda: Therefore when Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the seed*-giving father," what is the wrong there? No living entity can take birth without being seed-given by the father. Everywhere you see that without seed-giving father how a child can take birth? Dayānanda: But how can we accept that situation? Perhaps the creation is a special circumstance? Prabhupāda: No, no. No special. "Perhaps," this is impractical. Why do you say "perhaps"? That is nonsense. As soon as you say "perhaps," then you are rascal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You'll have to show a practical example. *Prabhupāda: Yes, when you talking of practical things and you bring argument, "perhaps," then you are rascal, immediately. Give practical example, no "perhaps," "maybe." No. That argument will not do. These rascals are giving that argument, "perhaps," "maybe." That is not argument. Be practical when you talk of practical things. Practically you do not see that without father there is any child born. No. Either in the animals or in the human beings or in the birds—everywhere, seed*-giving father is there. Hari-śauri: Freud's idea . . . Freud admitted that, that we are all like children, but his philosophy was that the children have to grow up and go out and look after themselves. They can't remain dependent on the father forever, so they have to grow up and face the world. Prabhupāda: That is another rascal. Because everyone, every living entity is dependent on the father's arrangement. God is the supreme father. He was a Christian or not, Freud? Hari-śauri: I don't know what he was. Prabhupāda: What he was? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He was mainly Freudian. He believed in himself. Hari-śauri: He had his own philosophy. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He was Christian, yes . . . Prabhupāda: Christian. So why the Christian go and . . . go to the father, "Give us our daily bread"? That means that you are dependent on father. How you can say independent? Hari-śauri: But that's the point, that we have to grow up and become dependent on our own work. Prabhupāda: No. The Vedic injunction is eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God means He's supplying the necessities of all His sons. That is God. And that is practical. You are dependent. The animals, they are dependent on grass. So wherefrom the grass is coming? Why that land is deserted and this land is green place? Can you change it? Why you don't change the desert to be green? So if you think that, "I'm living on animal. I don't care for grass," but the animal depending on grass, and the grass is depending on God's mercy. So how you can say you are not dependent on God? You are dependent. But because you are a rascal fraud, you want to cheat and become a Freud, that's all. You are a great fraud, therefore you're talking like that. You are dependent on God in every step. You cannot be independent. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra . Find out this verse. That is fraud. He's thinking independently. He's not independent. Harikeśa: "The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities which are in actuality carried out by nature." *Prabhupāda: So how we are independent? Did Mr. Freud not die? When prakṛti , nature, kicked on his face, he immediately died. So how he's independent? These rascals have created all troubles. The so*-called rascal philosophers, scientists, politicians, they have created all troubles. He's completely dependent on nature, on the laws of nature, and still he says: "I am independent. I have grown up." What you have grown up? You have grown up as a great fool, that's all. You have not grown up to be intelligent. You have grown up a great rascal, that's all. So refute them in this way, then you'll be preacher. So what is your argument about humanity? Dayānanda: Well, if God is, as you say . . . Prabhupāda: God is the father. Dayānanda: If God is meant to be propitiated, then why is it that we have so many things for our enjoyment? You say that everything is for God's enjoyment. *Prabhupāda: Yes, God has given you enjoyment, but you cannot enjoy yourself, alone. There are other sons, they will also enjoy. If you interfere with other sons, then you'll be punished. God's son is the lamb, and you let him enjoy, you also enjoy. But if you interfere with his right, then you'll be punished. That is God's law. Sarva*-yoniṣu , God is not only your father, he's father of the lamb also. So if by your brute force you want to kill the poor lamb, then you'll be punished. This is natural. You have got your food; you produce your foodgrain and you eat. Why should you eat another animal? God says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), you must eat to become strong. But that does not mean you'll eat another brother. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1): whatever He has designated, you eat like that. You are human being, you can produce food. You grow foodstuffs, rice, wheat, fruit, flowers, vegetables. That is allowed. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . You produce anna; why should you kill an animal? And offer it to Kṛṣṇa, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). He never says that, "You give Me an animal." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam . So you produce patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam , and offer to Kṛṣṇa, and then take. Dayānanda: In our experience we have no understanding how this can be practical, because we think that meat is good for our strength. How can we be strong? Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are not human being; you are animal. If you cannot produce your food . . . uncivilized animals, they cannot produce their food. But you are given the chance of becoming human being. If you cannot produce your food, if you do not know how to cook food, how to offer it, then you are not human being; you are animal. When the uncivilized man in the jungle, they did not know how to produce food, they used to kill animals. So if you want to remain in the same uncivilized status of life, then where you are human being? You have got greater intelligence. You produce your food. Why should you kill animal like the uncivilized jungle men? Your action is just like jungle man, and you are claiming to be civilized man. *Nava*-yauvana: Because they are thinking that they are the proprietor. Prabhupāda: That is their folly. They are not proprietor. They are not proprietor. That is already discussed. Proprietor is the Supreme Lord; you are not proprietor. That is another point. Falsely you are claiming proprietor. How you are proprietor? Everyone can claim proprietor, and that is going on. Everyone is claiming proprietor and they are fighting. That is going on. And if you accept God is proprietor and we are dependent on Him, then there is no fight. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā . This īśa, Īśopanisad verse is perfectly describing, tena tyaktena : you are not proprietor. You accept things what the proprietor has given you, allotted for you. You are not proprietor. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā . Do not encroach upon others. Then how you become proprietor? We are falsely claiming proprietorship; we are encroaching upon others' independence. This is our business. How there can be peace? It is not possible. This property is walled, that property is walled. You cannot encroach on the other side of the wall. Then it is criminal, trespassing. The government's duty is to see that nobody's encroaching on others. Similarly, God's duty is that, that everyone is God's son, you don't encroach upon other son's right, then you'll be punished. You have got right to live and the lamb has got right to live. Why should you encroach upon his living right? Because you are strong? That is not humanity. The animal is there for benefit. Let him live, and you take the fur. You can use it for your coat. But why should you kill it? The cow is giving milk like mother, why should you kill it? This is humanity, to kill the mother? So in this way we are encroaching the rights of others, and we are becoming subject to be punished by God. This is going on. You may say there is no God, but God is there; you'll be punished. The outlaws, they will say: "We don't care for government." You may say so, but government will take action. You cannot avoid it. This is humanity. Good citizenship means one who knows the laws of the state. That is good citizen. If one does not know the laws of the state, he's a fool; he's not a good citizen. One who knows the law, he keeps right and left, he knows this is the order of the government, cars should be driven on the right side or left side, he is good citizen. One who does not know the law of the state, he's not a good citizen. He's a fool, rascal, what to speak of humanity. Dayānanda: Some people say . . . so we will even say, "I don't care for your rational arguments." Some people say, "I don't care for your . . ." Prabhupāda: Then you are animal, because animal has no rationality. Then you are animal. Better not to talk with you. What is the use of talking with you? You are animal. You have no rationality. Man is rational animal, this is the definition. You have no rationality, therefore you are animal. What is the use of talking with you? Waste time. If you have no rationality, then you are animal. That is the difficulty. People are kept in the status of animal, and they are expected human behavior. How it is possible? It is not possible. So therefore our endeavor is to bring them to the standard of humanity, real humanity. Then there will be peace, prosperity, everything all right. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You don't care for rationality, that means you are animal. Man is rational animal. That is the definition. If you have no rationality . . . dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ . . . this is Vedic injunction. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samāna (Hitopadeśa). Anyone who has no religious principle, he's animal. Therefore you'll find in human society, it doesn't matter whether it is Iran or India or Europe, there is some religion. Because without religion they are animals. Animal has no religion. The animal is . . . dog is dog. It is not a Christian dog or a Hindu dog. Hindu, Christian comes when they are human being. So a civilized society must have the rationality, religion. Religion is rationality, to accept God. What is religion? Religion means to accept God. Dayānanda: They say that, "You may have so many wonderful philosophies, but our desire is just to enjoy life." Prabhupāda: That means animal. That means animal. Animal has no philosophy. *Nava*-yauvana: Also they say that religions are the causes of war. In Lebanon now the Christians are killing the Muslims and the Muslims are killing the Christians, in the name of . . . Prabhupāda: And the Communists are killing capitalists and capitalists are killing Communists. What is that? Is that religion? Then? So how you can stop war? Because you are animal, you fight, you can give some name, either on religious ground or this philosophical ground. But because you are animal you will fight. You can give a different name. That is different thing. But because you are dogs, you'll fight. The real religion is why they will fight? Religion means to accept God. So if you are Muslim, I am Hindu, if I accept God, if you accept God, then where is fight? If we accept that God is the proprietor, God is the father, then where is the question of fight? Because we are not religious, therefore fight. Otherwise, if you accept God is the supreme father, if I accept God is the supreme, why fight? (pause) Prabhupāda: So we have to go down? *Nava*-yauvana: Everything you say, Prabhupāda, makes sense. Everything you say makes sense. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our preaching should be sensible, then people will accept. After all, they are human being. There is sense, but by force they are covering the sense. So we have to awaken them by handling carefully, that's all. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo gauracānda bole. Who are . . . uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpya varan nibodhata (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.3.14). They are sleeping. We have awaken them, that's it. That is preaching. Even the animal*-killing, where it is absolutely necessary . . . so according to any religious principle, there is God. Just like who was telling me? You were telling me about the lamb killing? The injunction is that the mouth should be toward Mecca. Is it like that? *Nava*-yauvana: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So because there is no other way . . . suppose in the desert, what they'll do? They must eat something. But still there is sense of God, there is some regulative principle. Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is also principle of sacrifice with very strict regulations. Prabhupāda: So in this way God consciousness must be there. That is civilization. Hari-śauri: You want to go down, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . strongly by chance? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: How do they support? In other words, they cannot give explanation, and like a foolish man says, "Chance." You cannot give proper explanation how things are happening. Like a foolish rascal: "Chance." Dayānanda: Because they see according to their intelligence that things are happening according to chance. According to their understanding, sometimes things happen . . . Prabhupāda: So what is this understanding? The chance? Dayānanda: In their experience, or in our experience, we see things are happening . . . Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of the scientists? Things will take place by chance. What is the use of them? Dayānanda: By chance there may be an accident, or by chance there may be . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, things will happen by chance, accident. So why they're bothering about things and taking the credit of becoming scientist? Dayānanda: It's not completely chance. There are certain laws which they try to find, which act whenever these elements . . . Prabhupāda: So in other words, that they are not yet conversant with the things, and still they are claiming to be scientist. That is the point. They do not know thoroughly how things are happening, and still they are taking the credit of becoming scientist. Dayānanda: They have developed a branch of mathematics that deals with chance, things happening with chance. Prabhupāda: Yes, that mathematics department is now being closed. You know that? Nobody cares to attend that mathematic. People are becoming disinterested with these chance theories. There is one Dr. Henderson, you know? He became doctor in that field. He's not getting job, now he's manufacturing incense. Dayānanda: Oh, George Henderson? Prabhupāda: George Henderson. He has no job here. All these theoretical doctors are no longer required by university. *Nava*-yauvana: I was reading the other day that they are doing some experiments on Mars. They have twenty-two different theories about this one idea. Just this one little idea, twenty-two different theories. Prabhupāda: Theory means they are not certain. *Nava*-yauvana: The misfortunate thing is that people in general have faith in the scientists. Prabhupāda: So you have to create people to have faith in Kṛṣṇa. If people are going by faith, so you have to create this faith that Kṛṣṇa, that's all. They can create, you can create. And they criticize our destiny theory, believe in the destiny. They criticize it. So why they'll depend on chance theory? What is the difference, destiny and chance? *Nava*-yauvana: Destiny means there is controller. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Nava*-yauvana: Destiny means there is a controller. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but they cannot explain what is that controller; *therefore they disbelieve. Just like yesterday we were discussing that atheist class, they are by chance there was lusty desires and there was pregnancy and there will be child. So we say: "No. Daiva*-netreṇa . These things have been arranged by superior authorities." This is destiny, that what is already arranged by superior authority, that is destiny. You cannot change it. A man is ordered to be hanged by the court justice, you cannot change it. He is to be hanged. And they will say, "By chance he will be hanged." Jñānagamya: Sometimes something happens to interfere with that. He gets a reprieve from the governor, or the rope breaks, and they only hang him once, like that. Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but first thing is that if one is ordered to be hanged, he has to be hanged. Destined. But these people, they do not see who has ordered because they do not accept authority. They will say: "It is by chance." They have not seen who has ordered, who is that authority. They cannot explain, therefore they say "chance." Jñānagamya: They have no science of astrology, so they cannot understand the universe and how it's working. Prabhupāda: Astrology . . . I don't think they believe in astrology. There is no question of astrology. We practically we see that one man ordered to be hanged by the justice, he has to be hanged. That is destiny. One has not seen who has ordered, but he sees that, "This man is being hanged." He cannot explain; he says: "By chance." So whose explanation is right? The chance explanation or the destiny explanation—which is right? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Actually, logically, I cannot see how there is any chance, not a single. When I was a child I used to give an argument to my friend, and he used to say: "A chance. Everything is chance. It is like a lottery ticket." I said to him, "If you don't buy the lottery ticket and win $50,000, then that is chance. But if you buy the lottery ticket . . ." Prabhupāda: How it is chance? Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is no chance, because you bought the lottery ticket, so . . . Prabhupāda: Your destiny. Then your destiny. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They miss the order and the controller and the organizer. Prabhupāda: That is whole purpose—how to defy God. That is their whole plan. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, the mind is attracted to that. Prabhupāda: No, there are always two classes of men: devatā and demons. Demon class will always say like that, "There is no God. We are everything." Devatā class, they will always believe in. That is the difference, devatā class. This struggle will always be there. *There are two classes of men throughout the whole universe. One is called daiva and the other is called asura . The viṣṇu*-bhaktaḥ bhaved daivaḥ , those who are devotees of the Lord, they are daiva . And āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ, and those who are not devotees, they are just the opposite number, they are asura . So asura class will always say like that. And there is always fight between the two, even in higher planetary systems. Only Brahmaloka, Satyaloka, there are no more asuras . So asura class will always fight like that, and devatā class will always defy. But for God everyone is equal, because all of them are sons of God. Therefore an attempt is always going on to turn the asuras to become devotees. For this purpose God Himself comes, He sends His representative, how these rascal asuras can be turned into devotees. Otherwise, the asura class is always be there. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's the business of the representative. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because God is equal to everyone. He sees that these rascal asuras are misguided, so He sends His representative, He comes Himself, there is śāstras , guidance, and everything. The whole propaganda is how these rascal asuras can be turned into devatā . This is equality in the eyes of God. Very simple thing. Just like government puts a person into prison house. The idea is to correct him. Not that government is enemy of a class of men, they are put into the prison house. Government is equal. But there is department of punishing this . . . (aside) Don't show . . . (indistinct) . . . Government is equal to everyone, but there is the department of reformation which is called jail department. He's punished so that he may come to his senses that, "I have done wrong." But unfortunately there are stubborn criminals, they are not corrected. They go and again come, go and again come. One term finished; another term. One term finished . . . that is transmigration. One term finished, punishment, and another term begins. He creates another term. So that is daiva netreṇa. That is superior arrangement. Now this rascal has finished his human life, now again he has committed so many sins, let him become a dog. Again comes to the human form of life; again one chance is given. This not good. But he does not accept, so again he becomes a tree—stand up for ten thousand years. Nothing is a chance. Everything is under supreme control. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ( BG 3.27). But he is a rascal. He simply defies and suffers. One man is being slapped with shoes, so he is shameless, he says: "Oh, you have beaten me with shoes. All right, if you touch my wife, I'll sue you." Then the wife is beaten with shoes, then he says: "Oh, you have beaten my wife. All right, touch my son, I will sue you." In this way every member is being beaten with shoes, and he is simply challenging that, "I'll sue, I'll sue." This is going on. He's punished one after another, but he is so shameless that still he defies the authority. That is called asura . They're not very intelligent. "Next time I will see it. Wait millions of years, I shall see." This is going on. So we have to deal with asuras . This is the position. Devotee: That's why it's so difficult. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: That's why it's so difficult. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is a devotee's business. *Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. That is devotee. Because God wants it that these rascals may be turned into sane man. That is God's plan. Otherwise why does He comes? Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Huh? Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8)—two class, sādhu and duṣkṛtinaḥ . So to punish these duṣkṛtinaḥ , that is reformation. That is not God's envy, reformation. As the father gives slap to rogue child, that is also kindness, so these two processes are going on, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya . Then what is that dharma ? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). That is dharma . So to deal with the asuras is not so easy job, but we have to do that. You should not be discouraged. So asuras may be reformed or not be reformed, but because you are trying this job on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, He will recognize you. Your service will be recognized. Not that you attempted, therefore you must be successful. You may be unsuccessful. It doesn't matter. But you have tried your best, and that will be recognized. (pause) *Prabhupāda: And these asuras are trying to become happy by material advancement of knowledge. They're not happy—struggling—but this is called will*-o'-the-wisp, phantasmagoria. Actually, they are not happy, they cannot be happy, but they are trying. How they can be happy? Nature is there. *Nava*-yauvana: They are falsely proud of their achievements. *Prabhupāda: That is asura . That is, that means asura . They have already tried the moon excursion, failure—again do it. This will be a failure—again do it. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), repeatedly chewing the chewed. That is their business. One excursion—failure. It is already chewed. Whatever possibility finished—again chewing, "Let me see if there is any juice." Because they have no other business. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā . They are already discussed. This is their business. Failure; again. Failure; again. One war started, all the city bombarded, finished—again start, again reconstruct. And when the reconstruct finished, again war. Again bomb it, again reconstruct. Jñānagamya: Sometimes boys come here and they are involved in impersonal meditation. They want liberation . . . Prabhupāda: Well, that is their business. Let them do. You try to understand the position. Meditation is also something. Asuras , they do not take to meditation. Meditation is something beginning to the path of devatā. Dhyānāvasthita . If they are actually serious, then they can profit. Meditation is not always bad, if they are properly guided. But that is not the business of the asuras . They say: "On whom I shall meditate?" The asuras do not do that. Devotee: They have special meditation for asuras these days. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: They have special classes in meditation for asuras . They give them some meaningless word to meditate upon. Prabhupāda: So what is the purpose of this meditation? Devotee: To make . . . to relax the mind. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another thing. Material. That is that Transcendental Meditation. (long pause) Jñānagamya: How can we convince them? Prabhupāda: Hmm? How can you convince? They are asuras . Jñānagamya: No, those who doing some meditation that are Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Prabhupāda: No, they are also asuras . They do not know what is the meaning of meditation. That is psychology; it is not meditation. Or some medical treatment. Meditation is different, real meditation. Devotee: What is . . . what is real meditation? *Prabhupāda: Real meditation is to find out the Supersoul within the core of the heart. That is real meditation. God is situated in everyone's heart, so the yogīs , they try to find out Supersoul within the heart. That is real yogī. Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginam (SB 12.13.1). This is real yogī , trying to contact the Supersoul. They are searching after the God in His all-pervading feature. But, ah, some of them, they want to become one. That is asuric. One with God, that is asuric. Because they are being defeated by God, so therefore they want to become God to stop this defeat. That is asuric. Therefore they will never be able to be, but they are trying for it. Jñānagamya: It is the highest blasphemy. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jñānagamya: It is the highest blasphemy, isn't it? If one says: "I am God." *Prabhupāda: No, highest ignorance, highest rascaldom. (laughter) Yes. How one can become God? If one can become God, that means the such*-and-such, he was God. Then how he has become dog? That is another rascaldom, ambition. Jñānagamya: A devotee is only supposed to want service, and sometimes he very much wants to be liberated to be finished with all this difficulty, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jñānagamya: Is it very contaminating? Prabhupāda: Not contaminating, not in the highest stage. That is not contaminating. If the devotee wants liberation, then they're in the lower stage. Actually, a devotee, he is already liberated. Why he shall aspire after liberation? Jñānagamya: Pure devotee's liberated. *Prabhupāda: Therefore when he's purified, he's already liberated. There is no question of his aspiring after liberation. He's already liberated. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). Ātreya Ṛṣi: If the devotee's purified, he's convinced that if he becomes purified he will be free. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole devotional process is purificatory process. The more he is purified, he becomes high*-class devotee. But the process is the path of liberation. Just like mango. The green mango, this green mango will be ripe mango. The same mango. You cannot say that the ripe mango is different from the green mango. It is a process. By the process the same green mango becomes yellow; then it is perfect. (long pause; devotees chant japa in background) Prabhupāda: What is that point, there are thirty theories or something, about this Mars planet? *Devotee: Twenty*-two theories. Prabhupāda: You just told? Devotee: They are trying to understand the geology of the planet and how the surface of the planet was formed, and what . . . Prabhupāda: They have different . . . (break) *Nava*-yauvana: They are so foolish that they say that these experiments are very wonderful. They are very proud of these experiments . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Because they do not know. *Nava*-yauvana: Yes, the result is . . . Prabhupāda: Wonderful. Do not know. Wonderfully do not know. The platform is, "Do not know"; it is still wonderful. Wonderful foolish, like that. The platform remains "Do not know," but still it is wonderful. Jñānagamya: Their most intelligent philosophers and thinkers, they always say the more we know . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jñānagamya: Their most intelligent philosophers and thinkers, they say that the more that we know, the more that we understand that we do not know . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And that is wonderful. The more they become convinced that, "I do not know," that is wonderful. When they'll know? Devotee: And then they make these statements that, "The earth is this old . . ." They make statements like "The earth is this many years," without any factual basis. Prabhupāda: They are wonderful rascals. Just see. Shameless. Wonderful shameless rascals. They say that the moon planet is desert, vacant, no living entities. And we say that it is the planet for the pious men to live there very opulently for ten thousand . . . of these two classes of knowledge, which is better? We have got some evidence in the śāstra , but they have no evidence—they are simply speculating. Now this moon . . . er, Mars, they'll find the same result. Then how long they will go on like this? Ātreya Ṛṣi: As long as the society is godless . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: As long as the society's godless, then . . . Prabhupāda: So how long they will present the same theory over and over again? They're already putting the same thing. They have concluded in the moon there is rocks and sand, nobody can live. The same thing they are saying in a different way, and at the end they will have to say like that. Because they have no knowledge, it is simply theoretical. And they have no other alternative than to say the same thing again and again. What they will say? Jñānagamya: They say on Mars there can be life because the conditions are a little bit like earth. Prabhupāda: Suppose there is life, then what you gain? Devotee: They say that our knowledge now is not mere theoretical because now we have gone there. Prabhupāda: But what profit you have gained? You have spent some millions of dollars, that's all. Devotee: More theories. Prabhupāda: ( japa ) Devotee: The government encourages this spending of money while the citizens are unhappy and cannot be safe in their own city. *Prabhupāda: Yes, you must have such government. Dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ. They will snatch your money by force. You cannot say anything. That is punishment. Godless civilization, that is punishment, that your own government will snatch, by force, take away all your hard labor accumulation, by taxation. That is written in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . You cannot fight. You will be harassed in so many ways you will become mad. Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā yāsyanti giri-kānanam (SB 12.2.8). Hopelessly they will leave hearth and home and go to the forest. This godless civilization will be punished like that. That day is coming like that. Nobody will be peaceful. They will be mad. Just like when a man becomes mad, he commits suicide, he blows off his head. This will be done. There will be no rain—this is one punishment—and scarcity of food and heavy taxation by government. They are all mentioned. What more suffering you want? But still they are advancing, scientists. Devotee: One of the most practical things that people give credit to the scientists for is that they have invented these insecticides, these things that kill insects. But now they find that after they spray, after a few generations, the insects become immune to this, and they become stronger. Prabhupāda: Yes. The antibiotics medicine, at a certain stage it does not work. If too much antibiotic injection is given, then the . . . (indistinct) . . . does not work. Jñānagamya: It is like that with this syphilis disease, this venereal disease. Now they cannot kill certain strains of it. They cannot do anything about it. It becomes immune to penicillin. That is a big disease in United States. A big disease. *Prabhupāda: This is always, Western disease. It is a Western disease. Vairanga*-roga . In the Āyur-veda it is called vairanga-roga. Fairanga, farangi, farangi . The Westerners are called farangi , the vairanga-roga. So this syphilis disease was imported in India by these Europeans. Before, it was not there. There is a medicine called . . . (indistinct) . . . injection. Fifty years ago it was one rupee, four annas , price. But during the wartime the same medicine was selling at nineteen. In black market. Jñānagamya: That is their nature—everyone wants to exploit. Prabhupāda: Hmm. I have seen it, one rupee, four annas, the price goes nineteen. Jñānagamya: There is a story about a man who made some perfect cloth that would never get dirty, never get torn. So he made a suit out of it, and he was trying to market it. So he went to the capitalists, "Now I have made some perfect cloth." And they did not like it because they could not sell more cloth after they sold this. No one would want anything else. And the workers, they did not like it either, because they would lose their jobs. No one would buy this cloth. Prabhupāda: What is that? Jñānagamya: They tried to kill him. Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: He's telling a story. Prabhupāda: A story. Jñānagamya: The story is about perfect cloth. Prabhupāda: Perfect? Devotee: Perfect cloth. Prabhupāda: Cloth. Jñānagamya: So everyone was trying to kill him because he had this perfect cloth and it would put everybody out of business, because their business was based on exploitation, on the things wearing out, getting old, having to be renewed. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So we shall go now. This sun . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . strongly by chance? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: How do they support? In other words, they cannot give explanation, and like a foolish man says, "Chance." You cannot give proper explanation how things are happening. Like a foolish rascal: "Chance." Dayānanda: Because they see according to their intelligence that things are happening according to chance. According to their understanding, sometimes things happen . . . Prabhupāda: So what is this understanding? The chance? Dayānanda: In their experience, or in our experience, we see things are happening . . . Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of the scientists? Things will take place by chance. What is the use of them? Dayānanda: By chance there may be an accident, or by chance there may be . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, things will happen by chance, accident. So why they're bothering about things and taking the credit of becoming scientist? Dayānanda: It's not completely chance. There are certain laws which they try to find, which act whenever these elements . . . Prabhupāda: So in other words, that they are not yet conversant with the things, and still they are claiming to be scientist. That is the point. They do not know thoroughly how things are happening, and still they are taking the credit of becoming scientist. Dayānanda: They have developed a branch of mathematics that deals with chance, things happening with chance. Prabhupāda: Yes, that mathematics department is now being closed. You know that? Nobody cares to attend that mathematic. People are becoming disinterested with these chance theories. There is one Dr. Henderson, you know? He became doctor in that field. He's not getting job, now he's manufacturing incense. Dayānanda: Oh, George Henderson? Prabhupāda: George Henderson. He has no job here. All these theoretical doctors are no longer required by university. *Nava*-yauvana: I was reading the other day that they are doing some experiments on Mars. They have twenty-two different theories about this one idea. Just this one little idea, twenty-two different theories. Prabhupāda: Theory means they are not certain. *Nava*-yauvana: The misfortunate thing is that people in general have faith in the scientists. Prabhupāda: So you have to create people to have faith in Kṛṣṇa. If people are going by faith, so you have to create this faith that Kṛṣṇa, that's all. They can create, you can create. And they criticize our destiny theory, believe in the destiny. They criticize it. So why they'll depend on chance theory? What is the difference, destiny and chance? *Nava*-yauvana: Destiny means there is controller. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Nava*-yauvana: Destiny means there is a controller. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but they cannot explain what is that controller; *therefore they disbelieve. Just like yesterday we were discussing that atheist class, they are by chance there was lusty desires and there was pregnancy and there will be child. So we say: "No. Daiva*-netreṇa . These things have been arranged by superior authorities." This is destiny, that what is already arranged by superior authority, that is destiny. You cannot change it. A man is ordered to be hanged by the court justice, you cannot change it. He is to be hanged. And they will say, "By chance he will be hanged." Jñānagamya: Sometimes something happens to interfere with that. He gets a reprieve from the governor, or the rope breaks, and they only hang him once, like that. Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but first thing is that if one is ordered to be hanged, he has to be hanged. Destined. But these people, they do not see who has ordered because they do not accept authority. They will say: "It is by chance." They have not seen who has ordered, who is that authority. They cannot explain, therefore they say "chance." Jñānagamya: They have no science of astrology, so they cannot understand the universe and how it's working. Prabhupāda: Astrology . . . I don't think they believe in astrology. There is no question of astrology. We practically we see that one man ordered to be hanged by the justice, he has to be hanged. That is destiny. One has not seen who has ordered, but he sees that, "This man is being hanged." He cannot explain; he says: "By chance." So whose explanation is right? The chance explanation or the destiny explanation—which is right? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Actually, logically, I cannot see how there is any chance, not a single. When I was a child I used to give an argument to my friend, and he used to say: "A chance. Everything is chance. It is like a lottery ticket." I said to him, "If you don't buy the lottery ticket and win $50,000, then that is chance. But if you buy the lottery ticket . . ." Prabhupāda: How it is chance? Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is no chance, because you bought the lottery ticket, so . . . Prabhupāda: Your destiny. Then your destiny. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They miss the order and the controller and the organizer. Prabhupāda: That is whole purpose—how to defy God. That is their whole plan. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, the mind is attracted to that. Prabhupāda: No, there are always two classes of men: devatā and demons. Demon class will always say like that, "There is no God. We are everything." Devatā class, they will always believe in. That is the difference, devatā class. This struggle will always be there. *There are two classes of men throughout the whole universe. One is called daiva and the other is called asura . The viṣṇu*-bhaktaḥ bhaved daivaḥ , those who are devotees of the Lord, they are daiva . And āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ, and those who are not devotees, they are just the opposite number, they are asura . So asura class will always say like that. And there is always fight between the two, even in higher planetary systems. Only Brahmaloka, Satyaloka, there are no more asuras . So asura class will always fight like that, and devatā class will always defy. But for God everyone is equal, because all of them are sons of God. Therefore an attempt is always going on to turn the asuras to become devotees. For this purpose God Himself comes, He sends His representative, how these rascal asuras can be turned into devotees. Otherwise, the asura class is always be there. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's the business of the representative. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because God is equal to everyone. He sees that these rascal asuras are misguided, so He sends His representative, He comes Himself, there is śāstras , guidance, and everything. The whole propaganda is how these rascal asuras can be turned into devatā . This is equality in the eyes of God. Very simple thing. Just like government puts a person into prison house. The idea is to correct him. Not that government is enemy of a class of men, they are put into the prison house. Government is equal. But there is department of punishing this . . . (aside) Don't show . . . (indistinct) . . . Government is equal to everyone, but there is the department of reformation which is called jail department. He's punished so that he may come to his senses that, "I have done wrong." But unfortunately there are stubborn criminals, they are not corrected. They go and again come, go and again come. One term finished; another term. One term finished . . . that is transmigration. One term finished, punishment, and another term begins. He creates another term. So that is daiva netreṇa. That is superior arrangement. Now this rascal has finished his human life, now again he has committed so many sins, let him become a dog. Again comes to the human form of life; again one chance is given. This not good. But he does not accept, so again he becomes a tree—stand up for ten thousand years. Nothing is a chance. Everything is under supreme control. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ( BG 3.27). But he is a rascal. He simply defies and suffers. One man is being slapped with shoes, so he is shameless, he says: "Oh, you have beaten me with shoes. All right, if you touch my wife, I'll sue you." Then the wife is beaten with shoes, then he says: "Oh, you have beaten my wife. All right, touch my son, I will sue you." In this way every member is being beaten with shoes, and he is simply challenging that, "I'll sue, I'll sue." This is going on. He's punished one after another, but he is so shameless that still he defies the authority. That is called asura . They're not very intelligent. "Next time I will see it. Wait millions of years, I shall see." This is going on. So we have to deal with asuras . This is the position. Devotee: That's why it's so difficult. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: That's why it's so difficult. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is a devotee's business. *Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. That is devotee. Because God wants it that these rascals may be turned into sane man. That is God's plan. Otherwise why does He comes? Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Huh? Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8)—two class, sādhu and duṣkṛtinaḥ . So to punish these duṣkṛtinaḥ , that is reformation. That is not God's envy, reformation. As the father gives slap to rogue child, that is also kindness, so these two processes are going on, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya . Then what is that dharma ? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). That is dharma . So to deal with the asuras is not so easy job, but we have to do that. You should not be discouraged. So asuras may be reformed or not be reformed, but because you are trying this job on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, He will recognize you. Your service will be recognized. Not that you attempted, therefore you must be successful. You may be unsuccessful. It doesn't matter. But you have tried your best, and that will be recognized. (pause) *Prabhupāda: And these asuras are trying to become happy by material advancement of knowledge. They're not happy—struggling—but this is called will*-o'-the-wisp, phantasmagoria. Actually, they are not happy, they cannot be happy, but they are trying. How they can be happy? Nature is there. *Nava*-yauvana: They are falsely proud of their achievements. *Prabhupāda: That is asura . That is, that means asura . They have already tried the moon excursion, failure—again do it. This will be a failure—again do it. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), repeatedly chewing the chewed. That is their business. One excursion—failure. It is already chewed. Whatever possibility finished—again chewing, "Let me see if there is any juice." Because they have no other business. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā . They are already discussed. This is their business. Failure; again. Failure; again. One war started, all the city bombarded, finished—again start, again reconstruct. And when the reconstruct finished, again war. Again bomb it, again reconstruct. Jñānagamya: Sometimes boys come here and they are involved in impersonal meditation. They want liberation . . . Prabhupāda: Well, that is their business. Let them do. You try to understand the position. Meditation is also something. Asuras , they do not take to meditation. Meditation is something beginning to the path of devatā. Dhyānāvasthita . If they are actually serious, then they can profit. Meditation is not always bad, if they are properly guided. But that is not the business of the asuras . They say: "On whom I shall meditate?" The asuras do not do that. Devotee: They have special meditation for asuras these days. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: They have special classes in meditation for asuras . They give them some meaningless word to meditate upon. Prabhupāda: So what is the purpose of this meditation? Devotee: To make . . . to relax the mind. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another thing. Material. That is that Transcendental Meditation. (long pause) Jñānagamya: How can we convince them? Prabhupāda: Hmm? How can you convince? They are asuras . Jñānagamya: No, those who doing some meditation that are Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Prabhupāda: No, they are also asuras . They do not know what is the meaning of meditation. That is psychology; it is not meditation. Or some medical treatment. Meditation is different, real meditation. Devotee: What is . . . what is real meditation? *Prabhupāda: Real meditation is to find out the Supersoul within the core of the heart. That is real meditation. God is situated in everyone's heart, so the yogīs , they try to find out Supersoul within the heart. That is real yogī. Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginam (SB 12.13.1). This is real yogī , trying to contact the Supersoul. They are searching after the God in His all-pervading feature. But, ah, some of them, they want to become one. That is asuric. One with God, that is asuric. Because they are being defeated by God, so therefore they want to become God to stop this defeat. That is asuric. Therefore they will never be able to be, but they are trying for it. Jñānagamya: It is the highest blasphemy. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jñānagamya: It is the highest blasphemy, isn't it? If one says: "I am God." *Prabhupāda: No, highest ignorance, highest rascaldom. (laughter) Yes. How one can become God? If one can become God, that means the such*-and-such, he was God. Then how he has become dog? That is another rascaldom, ambition. Jñānagamya: A devotee is only supposed to want service, and sometimes he very much wants to be liberated to be finished with all this difficulty, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jñānagamya: Is it very contaminating? Prabhupāda: Not contaminating, not in the highest stage. That is not contaminating. If the devotee wants liberation, then they're in the lower stage. Actually, a devotee, he is already liberated. Why he shall aspire after liberation? Jñānagamya: Pure devotee's liberated. *Prabhupāda: Therefore when he's purified, he's already liberated. There is no question of his aspiring after liberation. He's already liberated. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). Ātreya Ṛṣi: If the devotee's purified, he's convinced that if he becomes purified he will be free. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole devotional process is purificatory process. The more he is purified, he becomes high*-class devotee. But the process is the path of liberation. Just like mango. The green mango, this green mango will be ripe mango. The same mango. You cannot say that the ripe mango is different from the green mango. It is a process. By the process the same green mango becomes yellow; then it is perfect. (long pause; devotees chant japa in background) Prabhupāda: What is that point, there are thirty theories or something, about this Mars planet? *Devotee: Twenty*-two theories. Prabhupāda: You just told? Devotee: They are trying to understand the geology of the planet and how the surface of the planet was formed, and what . . . Prabhupāda: They have different . . . (break) *Nava*-yauvana: They are so foolish that they say that these experiments are very wonderful. They are very proud of these experiments . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Because they do not know. *Nava*-yauvana: Yes, the result is . . . Prabhupāda: Wonderful. Do not know. Wonderfully do not know. The platform is, "Do not know"; it is still wonderful. Wonderful foolish, like that. The platform remains "Do not know," but still it is wonderful. Jñānagamya: Their most intelligent philosophers and thinkers, they always say the more we know . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jñānagamya: Their most intelligent philosophers and thinkers, they say that the more that we know, the more that we understand that we do not know . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And that is wonderful. The more they become convinced that, "I do not know," that is wonderful. When they'll know? Devotee: And then they make these statements that, "The earth is this old . . ." They make statements like "The earth is this many years," without any factual basis. Prabhupāda: They are wonderful rascals. Just see. Shameless. Wonderful shameless rascals. They say that the moon planet is desert, vacant, no living entities. And we say that it is the planet for the pious men to live there very opulently for ten thousand . . . of these two classes of knowledge, which is better? We have got some evidence in the śāstra , but they have no evidence—they are simply speculating. Now this moon . . . er, Mars, they'll find the same result. Then how long they will go on like this? Ātreya Ṛṣi: As long as the society is godless . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: As long as the society's godless, then . . . Prabhupāda: So how long they will present the same theory over and over again? They're already putting the same thing. They have concluded in the moon there is rocks and sand, nobody can live. The same thing they are saying in a different way, and at the end they will have to say like that. Because they have no knowledge, it is simply theoretical. And they have no other alternative than to say the same thing again and again. What they will say? Jñānagamya: They say on Mars there can be life because the conditions are a little bit like earth. Prabhupāda: Suppose there is life, then what you gain? Devotee: They say that our knowledge now is not mere theoretical because now we have gone there. Prabhupāda: But what profit you have gained? You have spent some millions of dollars, that's all. Devotee: More theories. Prabhupāda: ( japa ) Devotee: The government encourages this spending of money while the citizens are unhappy and cannot be safe in their own city. *Prabhupāda: Yes, you must have such government. Dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ. They will snatch your money by force. You cannot say anything. That is punishment. Godless civilization, that is punishment, that your own government will snatch, by force, take away all your hard labor accumulation, by taxation. That is written in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . You cannot fight. You will be harassed in so many ways you will become mad. Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā yāsyanti giri-kānanam (SB 12.2.8). Hopelessly they will leave hearth and home and go to the forest. This godless civilization will be punished like that. That day is coming like that. Nobody will be peaceful. They will be mad. Just like when a man becomes mad, he commits suicide, he blows off his head. This will be done. There will be no rain—this is one punishment—and scarcity of food and heavy taxation by government. They are all mentioned. What more suffering you want? But still they are advancing, scientists. Devotee: One of the most practical things that people give credit to the scientists for is that they have invented these insecticides, these things that kill insects. But now they find that after they spray, after a few generations, the insects become immune to this, and they become stronger. Prabhupāda: Yes. The antibiotics medicine, at a certain stage it does not work. If too much antibiotic injection is given, then the . . . (indistinct) . . . does not work. Jñānagamya: It is like that with this syphilis disease, this venereal disease. Now they cannot kill certain strains of it. They cannot do anything about it. It becomes immune to penicillin. That is a big disease in United States. A big disease. *Prabhupāda: This is always, Western disease. It is a Western disease. Vairanga*-roga . In the Āyur-veda it is called vairanga-roga. Fairanga, farangi, farangi . The Westerners are called farangi , the vairanga-roga. So this syphilis disease was imported in India by these Europeans. Before, it was not there. There is a medicine called . . . (indistinct) . . . injection. Fifty years ago it was one rupee, four annas , price. But during the wartime the same medicine was selling at nineteen. In black market. Jñānagamya: That is their nature—everyone wants to exploit. Prabhupāda: Hmm. I have seen it, one rupee, four annas, the price goes nineteen. Jñānagamya: There is a story about a man who made some perfect cloth that would never get dirty, never get torn. So he made a suit out of it, and he was trying to market it. So he went to the capitalists, "Now I have made some perfect cloth." And they did not like it because they could not sell more cloth after they sold this. No one would want anything else. And the workers, they did not like it either, because they would lose their jobs. No one would buy this cloth. Prabhupāda: What is that? Jñānagamya: They tried to kill him. Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: He's telling a story. Prabhupāda: A story. Jñānagamya: The story is about perfect cloth. Prabhupāda: Perfect? Devotee: Perfect cloth. Prabhupāda: Cloth. Jñānagamya: So everyone was trying to kill him because he had this perfect cloth and it would put everybody out of business, because their business was based on exploitation, on the things wearing out, getting old, having to be renewed. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So we shall go now. This sun . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Prabhupāda: I can give you formula. That toothpaste formula, that is my invention. It's working very nicely. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can we have it? What if we can't find neem leaves here? Prabhupāda: No, we can supply neem leaves from India, any amount, from Vṛndāvana. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Neem leaves from Vṛndāvana is unique. Nobody can imitate us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Neem leaves we can export from India. In the United Provinces there is ample neem trees. That I shall give you instruction also. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will start, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is better than . . . this is easier than restaurant. Prabhupāda: Now you consider amongst yourselves. I have no difficulty. I have given direction, "Do like that." Now what you'll do, that is up to you. So far giving help and directions, that you will get perfect, there is no doubt about it. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya, jaya . It is perfect. Prabhupāda: That you will get. Yes. How to manage, how to get ingredients, everything you'll get. Because I have to say only; you have to do. That's all. So that will be all right. Now decide. That will be very nice or very effective. Whatever we shall prepare, it will be very effective. So if there is market, why not introduce? I think there will be market, because this country is undeveloped. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will manage it, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There will be plenty of market. Prabhupāda: It is undeveloped.We require all these things. The more they become civilized, the more they require medicine and all these things. So you decide. I am so far giving instruction and help, and that will be available. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have been, Śrīla Prabhupāda, talking and thinking about it amongst ourselves, that now that we have this propensity to be in business, instead of working for karmīs we should have our own business. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So it's much better . . . if devotees are in charge, then the karmīs can work for us, and they can become devotees. But if the karmīs are in charge . . . Prabhupāda: We are. Our Society, it is not that we are simply sannyāsīs . We have got brahmacārīs , we have got gṛhasthas . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. We want to set example. Prabhupāda: So gṛhasthas should be provided with some profession, business, so that they can earn very nicely. That is good idea. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He has so much propensity to become engaged in these things. I have the propensity, all the devotees have the propensity. We can . . . Prabhupāda: So you make your formula, I mean to say, plan and scheme. So far how to do it, that instruction I give. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now in this house you will see, this house, the plan is that the house, the first floor will be kitchen, restaurant and a store, a little section for store. Store will have Your Divine Grace's books, records, tapes, japa*-mālā and some sweets, prasādam that is made to go, to sell. Prabhupāda: Who made sandeśa ? It was very nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Who made the sandeśa ? *Hari-śauri: Nava*-yauvana's wife. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Mañjarī. Yes, she can make sandeśa . Prabhupāda: Very nice preparation. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And some of these products also can be stocked there. Once we start and it is successful, then we can grow. Prabhupāda: (referring to Harikeśa) He knows how to make kachorī . Ātreya Ṛṣi: You like him to stay here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, I don't say, but he can give you instruction. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So if you will give us the formulas, we can learn from him the formulas for toothpaste? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: For toothpaste and what else? Prabhupāda: You remember it? Harikeśa: Hmm . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, exactly? Prabhupāda: But toothpaste, you require collapsible tube. Harikeśa: Got to be in tubes? It was better in the bottles. In a tube it just doesn't come out. Prabhupāda: No, that will come out. The powder must be made very fine. Otherwise, it will not come out. Hari-śauri: If it's pulverized with a machine it comes out. Harikeśa: Yes, if there's a machine it would be nice. Prabhupāda: Very fine powder. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What about if we served it in a different shape. Tube is common. If we make it a little different it would be more attractive. Prabhupāda: That you have to think, how it will be attractive here. Otherwise paste, put into the collapsible tube, then it becomes complete. The formula is there with everything. Simply it has to be made very fine pulverized. Harikeśa: And it lasts for a long time, because the toothpaste Prabhupāda is using now I made in last December. Last December. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Are you happy with it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is it good? He made it good? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, it was not made good because . . . it is not his fault. The powder was not very fine. But it will be better, nice, when the powders are very, very finely pulverized. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What other products do you recommend? Prabhupāda: That you want me, I shall give you. Harikeśa: The one on leg that you put that neem oil. That cleared up that cut in two days. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is that neem ointment? Harikeśa: He was in a car accident in Mauritius, and he got a big cut on his leg, big cut, and then Prabhupāda invented this medicine, cured it in two days. Prabhupāda: Any cut, any ulcer, it is very . . . (indistinct) Ātreya Ṛṣi: You can use for ulcer? Prabhupāda: No, any . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Oh, cut, ulceration, cut. How much royalty do we pay you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (laughs) Hari-śauri: It's gone a bit moldy on the top again. Prabhupāda: Fifty percent. Hari-śauri: It's gone a little moldy on the top again, Underneath it's all right, though. Prabhupāda: No, we shall do it nicely. Harikeśa: This looks different. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What is this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Salt? Prabhupāda: No, it is simply neem leaf. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Just neem leaf. Hari-śauri: Neem leaf boiled in ghee. Harikeśa: This is not the same. Prabhupāda: It was not properly done. Harikeśa: No. Prabhupāda: I asked Pālikā. Harikeśa: It was very good that other time. It was completely merged in the ghee, and it was very nice. I cooked it for three hours. Prabhupāda: The water portion should be abolished. Then it will not go, not bad. Ātreya Ṛṣi: If the water portion is . . .? Hari-śauri: Abolished. Harikeśa: The secret is cooking it for a long time. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, yes, of course, it should be dry. Then it won't go bad. Harikeśa: Three hours. Prabhupāda: If the water portion remains, it will decompose. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Do you have to use ghee? Can't we use some oil? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you can use vaseline. Ghee is better, but vaseline you can use. Vaseline is available. I think you are not manufacturing vaseline? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Iran. *Prabhupāda: Because vaseline is one of the by*-product of petrol. Harikeśa: They have olive oil and that here. Prabhupāda: No olive oil. Vaseline will be very cheap here. And you can, if you want to engage him, if he wants to do something, that Praṇava, let him supply neem leaves, dry, from Vṛndāvana. If he actually wants some money, let him do some business. Let him collect all neem leaves and give him twenty percent profit. Suppose he collects neem, collects and dry it, and then packs it and dispatch. The cost of . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Shipping and dipatching. The cost of dispatching, we give him twenty percent for him. Prabhupāda: Some arrangement he may make some profit. Honest business. Not that by cheating get something. That is not good. If he wants money, let him take. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Have you had your massage, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, I'll come back and do. Hari-śauri: We have to leave soon. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have to leave soon, in fifteen minutes. Prabhupāda: Yes, I can go. I can . . . give me ten minutes. I am prepared. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Ten minutes. So we can get ready to go. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And we can get these formulas from you later. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Many things toilet and medicines and . . . we can give. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will like that very much. Prabhupāda: Let them be engaged in different ways and earn some money. This incense I taught Gargamuni first. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. This is better than incense. You teach us the incense also, everything. We will do it. Prabhupāda: Incense, I first of all taught Gargamuni. The starting was there in New York. Do you know that? And now it has developed very nice. Pradyumna: The largest in the world. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like us to . . . we have . . . this temple has some dakṣiṇā for you. How would you like me to do it? Give you . . . I mean today is Thursday. Would you like it in what form? Would you like us to invest it for you here, or give you the cash? *Prabhupāda: If you give me interest, eighteen percent, I'll utilize it for Māyāpur*-Vṛndāvana. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I shall . . . yes, that's fine. So we can . . . Prabhupāda: No, purchase one small book, like passbook. So you become my banker; I deposit with you. You receive it and send the interest, that's all. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I will be glad to . . . fine. Prabhupāda: I make you banker. That's all. There is no botheration. You become banker, you send the interest. Now how you are utilizing, you know; I don't bother. But if I get the interest, then I think it is all right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya . Eighteen percent you'll have. Prabhupāda: What is it? Is it all right? Simple? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So just purchase one small passbook. And . . . you have got that passbook? Or you . . .? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, I know. I shall do it. I will do it. We will put in this bank book, your account, two thousand dollars now, today. Prabhupāda: And I'll give you some foreign exchange. Give him. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Whatever you give, I will put in that account. Prabhupāda: Give that cash money. Hari-śauri: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And you will get eighteen percent interest. You want it on a monthly? Yearly? How do you like? Prabhupāda: Monthly, no yearly. Harikeśa: Those Travelers Cheques there? Prabhupāda: Travelers Cheques I'll keep now. It may be required. (indistinct background conversation between devotees about packing and money throughout) Ātreya Ṛṣi: And monthly to India or to America? Prabhupāda: India, or America. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because America is cheaper. Because if I send it to India, if small amounts go . . . Prabhupāda: So you send to America. Ātreya Ṛṣi: To America is all right? I send it every month to Rāmeśvara. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles, yes. For deposited in account number I will give you. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will go and we will take care of all this this afternoon. *Prabhupāda: All right. Keep it now. We are going. We shall come back, and then later on. After coming back we shall give him. (noise of packing) Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yat dadāsi tat kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam ( BG 9.27). (break) Harikeśa: It took two weeks to make. Prabhupāda: Two weeks? Why? Because the ingredients were not . . .? Harikeśa: No, because your mustard oil, no one liked to taste it. And then you changed it to mustard seeds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: And then glycerin. Prabhupāda: Mustard seed also can be exported from India. In the Mathurā district there is sufficient mustard seed. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Those yellow mustard seeds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mustard seeds and instead of chalk powder we mix neem powder. Mustard seed, neem powder. Harikeśa: Calcium carbonate. Prabhupāda: And salt. Calcium carbonate means . . .? Oh, calcium . . . instead of calcium carbonate, let it be neem. It will be very effective. Harikeśa: I think the taste will be horrible. Prabhupāda: Yes, taste will be . . . (laughter) Harikeśa: No one will use it. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also . . . Harikeśa: I saw they make this other toothpaste with sucrose. The second biggest ingredient is sucrose on the karmī toothpaste. Prabhupāda: Sucrose? What is that sucrose? Harikeśa: Sucrose, you know, sucrose and glucose and lactose, those sugars. They use sugar powder, sucrose. Prabhupāda: Oh, sacrose. Sacrose, yes. Saccharin and sacrose. Saccharin is sugar product. Hari-śauri: It's like a sweetener but not . . . Harikeśa: We tried that, too, the first time, with those saccharin. Prabhupāda: No, that is no good. Harikeśa: That was not good. Prabhupāda: Salt is available very easily. Harikeśa: And they use hard soap powder in these powdered ones. We tried that first with the hard soap powder? They use that also. Prabhupāda: No, in this latest we shouldn't do it. Latest only simple three things, that's all. That is good. That has come out nice. Harikeśa: Menthol, pine oil, camphor, oil of wintergreen, glycerin, mustard powder, powdered salt and calcium carbonate. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Good memory, yes. These are the things. Hari-śauri: You put all that in the last batch? Harikeśa: Yep. Prabhupāda: In Durban, I think. Hari-śauri: In Bombay we made this last one. Harikeśa: No, that big batch last I made in Sanand. When you went to that Sanand, above Ahmedabad, where that king had his palace, we stayed in that palace. That's when I made that big batch. But first it was developed in Durban. Prabhupāda: Durban, yes. Because there was no possibility of using datur . My teeth broken, and it became painful, it was not working. Therefore I invented. But it is effective. Harikeśa: You said on account of this toothpaste . . . your teeth were so rotten they want to fall out, but the toothpaste won't allow 'em. *Prabhupāda: Yes, actually my teeth have gone all bad. It is useless. But on account of this toothpaste it is still working. (laughs) Otherwise, according to dental science, it has to be extracted. It is no other remedy. If you go to a dentist, immediately he will say: "Extract all this and have a new set, artificial." That is, I know that. But I don't want to extract. As far as possible, use them and let them fall down automatically, as they have already fallen down so many. Fifty percent already fallen down, and twenty*-five percent are shaking, and still I am eating. Otherwise, according to the dental science, I should not eat any solid food. In Bengal there is a word that when the teeth is gone, then your eating is gone. You cannot digest, you cannot eat. It is not . . . if the foodstuff is not properly chewed, it causes digestive disturbance. Hari-śauri: Indigestion. Prabhupāda: Indigestion. And digestive disturbance means so many diseases. And this coughing is due to digestive disturbance. I know that. Hari-śauri: That's because liver's not working, or . . .? *Prabhupāda: No. Yes. It is old man's disease. Liver does not work nicely, teeth does not work nicely, there is susceptibility to cold. Old age. All my young friends, they have all died. Nobody's living. One or two still. You know that Dinanath came? I think you know. He's living. He's seventy*-five, seventy-six. Little younger than me. Hari-śauri: Who's that? Harikeśa: Dinanath Mishra in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: One man, a case pleader. Hari-śauri: That very thin man? Oh, I know. Yes. He was very sick, actually, when we were there. Prabhupāda: Yes, he was sick. He was half dead. Hari-śauri: What about those people when we went back to where you used to live? When we came back from Māyāpur and we went out that night to . . . what do you call? Your old friend's house? Prabhupāda: Oh, Mulliks. Hari-śauri: Mulliks. Prabhupāda: They are just like my younger brothers. Their elder brothers were contemporaries. They are all died. Hari-śauri: Finished. *Prabhupāda: They are younger. They are all my childhood playmates. Their older brothers, the eldest one was my very, very intimate friend, Siddhesvar Mullik. We used to ride on the same perambulator when we were three, four years old. And Ratha*-yātrā ceremony was performed with all these guests. They were about, in our neighborhood, there were four, five houses. So all the children of the same age, I was the leader. (laughs) Yes. I organized this Ratha-yātrā. I was performing Rādhāṣṭamī, Janmāṣṭamī, and I was learning how to dress the Rādhā-Govinda. Yes. Hari-śauri: You used to go in and dress Them? Prabhupāda: It is, actually, it was our house. Just three, four house after. *Hari-śauri: Rādhā*-Govinda were the only Deities in the neighborhood, or . . .? *Prabhupāda: No, only Deity, yes. And Rādhā*-Govinda has big property. In front of the Deity house there is a very big building. Hari-śauri: Just across the road? That one? Prabhupāda: Yes, just opposite. That is His building. Very good income. Besides that, He has many other lands. They have got very good income. Hari-śauri: They're very well looked after. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: They're very nicely looked after. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are one of the oldest aristocratic families of Calcutta, Mulliks. The whole, from Howrah Bridge up to that street, all belongs to their property. Very rich men. Hari-śauri: Now they don't own so much. Prabhupāda: No, the Deity has got income. So they have got terms for worshiping the Deity. So one who gets the term for worshiping, he takes the income. Hari-śauri: Oh, in the family members. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But practically that is now their income. The more one gets the worshiping term longer, he gets more income. (laughs) The Deity has got very, very good income. All the temples in India . . . just like I am trying to make some fund for Vṛndāvana and Māyāpur. Even no contribution comes, it will go on. The sevā*-pūjā will not stop for want of money. So there will be no want of money. Still, I must make some provision, by the income the sevā-pūjā will go on. Contribution may come or not. That provision should be made. Now in Vṛndāvana Akṣayānanda is collecting and so many ways. Suppose nobody collects. That does not mean this temple will be closed. It must go on. So I am trying to make some provision from that bank interest, at least five to ten thousand rupees so that the Deity worship will not be stopped. That is the system in all Indian temples. It must go on. Nitya-sevā . It must go on. These big, big temple in Vṛndāvana, they have got such arrangement. Otherwise how it is going on for five hundred, six hundred years? They have very good income. Govindajī has got eighteen thousand rupees monthly income. That is . . . He's the richest Deity in Vṛndāvana. And Raṅganātha is tenant of Govindajī. Land is taken from Govindajī, and Raṅganātha's temple is constructed. The Raṅganātha's temple management pays the rent. So Govindajī is the landlord and Raṅganāthajī is tenant. (laughter) Raṅganāthajī is Rāmānuja-sampradāya, Govindajī is Gauḍīya-sampradāya. (laughter) So Rāmānuja-sampradāya is the tenant of Gauḍīya-sampradāya. (break) . . . government is looting? Hari-śauri: You want to come . . . (indistinct) . . .? Harikeśa: Everybody's coming? Hari-śauri: I guess so. Prabhupāda: No, as many as we want. Why? (end) Prabhupāda: I can give you formula. That toothpaste formula, that is my invention. It's working very nicely. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can we have it? What if we can't find neem leaves here? Prabhupāda: No, we can supply neem leaves from India, any amount, from Vṛndāvana. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Neem leaves from Vṛndāvana is unique. Nobody can imitate us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Neem leaves we can export from India. In the United Provinces there is ample neem trees. That I shall give you instruction also. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will start, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is better than . . . this is easier than restaurant. Prabhupāda: Now you consider amongst yourselves. I have no difficulty. I have given direction, "Do like that." Now what you'll do, that is up to you. So far giving help and directions, that you will get perfect, there is no doubt about it. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya, jaya . It is perfect. Prabhupāda: That you will get. Yes. How to manage, how to get ingredients, everything you'll get. Because I have to say only; you have to do. That's all. So that will be all right. Now decide. That will be very nice or very effective. Whatever we shall prepare, it will be very effective. So if there is market, why not introduce? I think there will be market, because this country is undeveloped. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will manage it, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There will be plenty of market. Prabhupāda: It is undeveloped.We require all these things. The more they become civilized, the more they require medicine and all these things. So you decide. I am so far giving instruction and help, and that will be available. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have been, Śrīla Prabhupāda, talking and thinking about it amongst ourselves, that now that we have this propensity to be in business, instead of working for karmīs we should have our own business. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So it's much better . . . if devotees are in charge, then the karmīs can work for us, and they can become devotees. But if the karmīs are in charge . . . Prabhupāda: We are. Our Society, it is not that we are simply sannyāsīs . We have got brahmacārīs , we have got gṛhasthas . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. We want to set example. Prabhupāda: So gṛhasthas should be provided with some profession, business, so that they can earn very nicely. That is good idea. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He has so much propensity to become engaged in these things. I have the propensity, all the devotees have the propensity. We can . . . Prabhupāda: So you make your formula, I mean to say, plan and scheme. So far how to do it, that instruction I give. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now in this house you will see, this house, the plan is that the house, the first floor will be kitchen, restaurant and a store, a little section for store. Store will have Your Divine Grace's books, records, tapes, japa*-mālā and some sweets, prasādam that is made to go, to sell. Prabhupāda: Who made sandeśa ? It was very nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Who made the sandeśa ? *Hari-śauri: Nava*-yauvana's wife. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Mañjarī. Yes, she can make sandeśa . Prabhupāda: Very nice preparation. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And some of these products also can be stocked there. Once we start and it is successful, then we can grow. Prabhupāda: (referring to Harikeśa) He knows how to make kachorī . Ātreya Ṛṣi: You like him to stay here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, I don't say, but he can give you instruction. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So if you will give us the formulas, we can learn from him the formulas for toothpaste? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: For toothpaste and what else? Prabhupāda: You remember it? Harikeśa: Hmm . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, exactly? Prabhupāda: But toothpaste, you require collapsible tube. Harikeśa: Got to be in tubes? It was better in the bottles. In a tube it just doesn't come out. Prabhupāda: No, that will come out. The powder must be made very fine. Otherwise, it will not come out. Hari-śauri: If it's pulverized with a machine it comes out. Harikeśa: Yes, if there's a machine it would be nice. Prabhupāda: Very fine powder. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What about if we served it in a different shape. Tube is common. If we make it a little different it would be more attractive. Prabhupāda: That you have to think, how it will be attractive here. Otherwise paste, put into the collapsible tube, then it becomes complete. The formula is there with everything. Simply it has to be made very fine pulverized. Harikeśa: And it lasts for a long time, because the toothpaste Prabhupāda is using now I made in last December. Last December. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Are you happy with it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is it good? He made it good? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, it was not made good because . . . it is not his fault. The powder was not very fine. But it will be better, nice, when the powders are very, very finely pulverized. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What other products do you recommend? Prabhupāda: That you want me, I shall give you. Harikeśa: The one on leg that you put that neem oil. That cleared up that cut in two days. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is that neem ointment? Harikeśa: He was in a car accident in Mauritius, and he got a big cut on his leg, big cut, and then Prabhupāda invented this medicine, cured it in two days. Prabhupāda: Any cut, any ulcer, it is very . . . (indistinct) Ātreya Ṛṣi: You can use for ulcer? Prabhupāda: No, any . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Oh, cut, ulceration, cut. How much royalty do we pay you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (laughs) Hari-śauri: It's gone a bit moldy on the top again. Prabhupāda: Fifty percent. Hari-śauri: It's gone a little moldy on the top again, Underneath it's all right, though. Prabhupāda: No, we shall do it nicely. Harikeśa: This looks different. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What is this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Salt? Prabhupāda: No, it is simply neem leaf. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Just neem leaf. Hari-śauri: Neem leaf boiled in ghee. Harikeśa: This is not the same. Prabhupāda: It was not properly done. Harikeśa: No. Prabhupāda: I asked Pālikā. Harikeśa: It was very good that other time. It was completely merged in the ghee, and it was very nice. I cooked it for three hours. Prabhupāda: The water portion should be abolished. Then it will not go, not bad. Ātreya Ṛṣi: If the water portion is . . .? Hari-śauri: Abolished. Harikeśa: The secret is cooking it for a long time. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, yes, of course, it should be dry. Then it won't go bad. Harikeśa: Three hours. Prabhupāda: If the water portion remains, it will decompose. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Do you have to use ghee? Can't we use some oil? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you can use vaseline. Ghee is better, but vaseline you can use. Vaseline is available. I think you are not manufacturing vaseline? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Iran. *Prabhupāda: Because vaseline is one of the by*-product of petrol. Harikeśa: They have olive oil and that here. Prabhupāda: No olive oil. Vaseline will be very cheap here. And you can, if you want to engage him, if he wants to do something, that Praṇava, let him supply neem leaves, dry, from Vṛndāvana. If he actually wants some money, let him do some business. Let him collect all neem leaves and give him twenty percent profit. Suppose he collects neem, collects and dry it, and then packs it and dispatch. The cost of . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Shipping and dipatching. The cost of dispatching, we give him twenty percent for him. Prabhupāda: Some arrangement he may make some profit. Honest business. Not that by cheating get something. That is not good. If he wants money, let him take. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Have you had your massage, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, I'll come back and do. Hari-śauri: We have to leave soon. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have to leave soon, in fifteen minutes. Prabhupāda: Yes, I can go. I can . . . give me ten minutes. I am prepared. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Ten minutes. So we can get ready to go. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And we can get these formulas from you later. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Many things toilet and medicines and . . . we can give. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will like that very much. Prabhupāda: Let them be engaged in different ways and earn some money. This incense I taught Gargamuni first. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. This is better than incense. You teach us the incense also, everything. We will do it. Prabhupāda: Incense, I first of all taught Gargamuni. The starting was there in New York. Do you know that? And now it has developed very nice. Pradyumna: The largest in the world. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like us to . . . we have . . . this temple has some dakṣiṇā for you. How would you like me to do it? Give you . . . I mean today is Thursday. Would you like it in what form? Would you like us to invest it for you here, or give you the cash? *Prabhupāda: If you give me interest, eighteen percent, I'll utilize it for Māyāpur*-Vṛndāvana. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I shall . . . yes, that's fine. So we can . . . Prabhupāda: No, purchase one small book, like passbook. So you become my banker; I deposit with you. You receive it and send the interest, that's all. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I will be glad to . . . fine. Prabhupāda: I make you banker. That's all. There is no botheration. You become banker, you send the interest. Now how you are utilizing, you know; I don't bother. But if I get the interest, then I think it is all right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya . Eighteen percent you'll have. Prabhupāda: What is it? Is it all right? Simple? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So just purchase one small passbook. And . . . you have got that passbook? Or you . . .? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, I know. I shall do it. I will do it. We will put in this bank book, your account, two thousand dollars now, today. Prabhupāda: And I'll give you some foreign exchange. Give him. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Whatever you give, I will put in that account. Prabhupāda: Give that cash money. Hari-śauri: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And you will get eighteen percent interest. You want it on a monthly? Yearly? How do you like? Prabhupāda: Monthly, no yearly. Harikeśa: Those Travelers Cheques there? Prabhupāda: Travelers Cheques I'll keep now. It may be required. (indistinct background conversation between devotees about packing and money throughout) Ātreya Ṛṣi: And monthly to India or to America? Prabhupāda: India, or America. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because America is cheaper. Because if I send it to India, if small amounts go . . . Prabhupāda: So you send to America. Ātreya Ṛṣi: To America is all right? I send it every month to Rāmeśvara. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles, yes. For deposited in account number I will give you. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will go and we will take care of all this this afternoon. *Prabhupāda: All right. Keep it now. We are going. We shall come back, and then later on. After coming back we shall give him. (noise of packing) Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yat dadāsi tat kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam ( BG 9.27). (break) Harikeśa: It took two weeks to make. Prabhupāda: Two weeks? Why? Because the ingredients were not . . .? Harikeśa: No, because your mustard oil, no one liked to taste it. And then you changed it to mustard seeds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: And then glycerin. Prabhupāda: Mustard seed also can be exported from India. In the Mathurā district there is sufficient mustard seed. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Those yellow mustard seeds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mustard seeds and instead of chalk powder we mix neem powder. Mustard seed, neem powder. Harikeśa: Calcium carbonate. Prabhupāda: And salt. Calcium carbonate means . . .? Oh, calcium . . . instead of calcium carbonate, let it be neem. It will be very effective. Harikeśa: I think the taste will be horrible. Prabhupāda: Yes, taste will be . . . (laughter) Harikeśa: No one will use it. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also . . . Harikeśa: I saw they make this other toothpaste with sucrose. The second biggest ingredient is sucrose on the karmī toothpaste. Prabhupāda: Sucrose? What is that sucrose? Harikeśa: Sucrose, you know, sucrose and glucose and lactose, those sugars. They use sugar powder, sucrose. Prabhupāda: Oh, sacrose. Sacrose, yes. Saccharin and sacrose. Saccharin is sugar product. Hari-śauri: It's like a sweetener but not . . . Harikeśa: We tried that, too, the first time, with those saccharin. Prabhupāda: No, that is no good. Harikeśa: That was not good. Prabhupāda: Salt is available very easily. Harikeśa: And they use hard soap powder in these powdered ones. We tried that first with the hard soap powder? They use that also. Prabhupāda: No, in this latest we shouldn't do it. Latest only simple three things, that's all. That is good. That has come out nice. Harikeśa: Menthol, pine oil, camphor, oil of wintergreen, glycerin, mustard powder, powdered salt and calcium carbonate. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Good memory, yes. These are the things. Hari-śauri: You put all that in the last batch? Harikeśa: Yep. Prabhupāda: In Durban, I think. Hari-śauri: In Bombay we made this last one. Harikeśa: No, that big batch last I made in Sanand. When you went to that Sanand, above Ahmedabad, where that king had his palace, we stayed in that palace. That's when I made that big batch. But first it was developed in Durban. Prabhupāda: Durban, yes. Because there was no possibility of using datur . My teeth broken, and it became painful, it was not working. Therefore I invented. But it is effective. Harikeśa: You said on account of this toothpaste . . . your teeth were so rotten they want to fall out, but the toothpaste won't allow 'em. *Prabhupāda: Yes, actually my teeth have gone all bad. It is useless. But on account of this toothpaste it is still working. (laughs) Otherwise, according to dental science, it has to be extracted. It is no other remedy. If you go to a dentist, immediately he will say: "Extract all this and have a new set, artificial." That is, I know that. But I don't want to extract. As far as possible, use them and let them fall down automatically, as they have already fallen down so many. Fifty percent already fallen down, and twenty*-five percent are shaking, and still I am eating. Otherwise, according to the dental science, I should not eat any solid food. In Bengal there is a word that when the teeth is gone, then your eating is gone. You cannot digest, you cannot eat. It is not . . . if the foodstuff is not properly chewed, it causes digestive disturbance. Hari-śauri: Indigestion. Prabhupāda: Indigestion. And digestive disturbance means so many diseases. And this coughing is due to digestive disturbance. I know that. Hari-śauri: That's because liver's not working, or . . .? *Prabhupāda: No. Yes. It is old man's disease. Liver does not work nicely, teeth does not work nicely, there is susceptibility to cold. Old age. All my young friends, they have all died. Nobody's living. One or two still. You know that Dinanath came? I think you know. He's living. He's seventy*-five, seventy-six. Little younger than me. Hari-śauri: Who's that? Harikeśa: Dinanath Mishra in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: One man, a case pleader. Hari-śauri: That very thin man? Oh, I know. Yes. He was very sick, actually, when we were there. Prabhupāda: Yes, he was sick. He was half dead. Hari-śauri: What about those people when we went back to where you used to live? When we came back from Māyāpur and we went out that night to . . . what do you call? Your old friend's house? Prabhupāda: Oh, Mulliks. Hari-śauri: Mulliks. Prabhupāda: They are just like my younger brothers. Their elder brothers were contemporaries. They are all died. Hari-śauri: Finished. *Prabhupāda: They are younger. They are all my childhood playmates. Their older brothers, the eldest one was my very, very intimate friend, Siddhesvar Mullik. We used to ride on the same perambulator when we were three, four years old. And Ratha*-yātrā ceremony was performed with all these guests. They were about, in our neighborhood, there were four, five houses. So all the children of the same age, I was the leader. (laughs) Yes. I organized this Ratha-yātrā. I was performing Rādhāṣṭamī, Janmāṣṭamī, and I was learning how to dress the Rādhā-Govinda. Yes. Hari-śauri: You used to go in and dress Them? Prabhupāda: It is, actually, it was our house. Just three, four house after. *Hari-śauri: Rādhā*-Govinda were the only Deities in the neighborhood, or . . .? *Prabhupāda: No, only Deity, yes. And Rādhā*-Govinda has big property. In front of the Deity house there is a very big building. Hari-śauri: Just across the road? That one? Prabhupāda: Yes, just opposite. That is His building. Very good income. Besides that, He has many other lands. They have got very good income. Hari-śauri: They're very well looked after. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: They're very nicely looked after. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are one of the oldest aristocratic families of Calcutta, Mulliks. The whole, from Howrah Bridge up to that street, all belongs to their property. Very rich men. Hari-śauri: Now they don't own so much. Prabhupāda: No, the Deity has got income. So they have got terms for worshiping the Deity. So one who gets the term for worshiping, he takes the income. Hari-śauri: Oh, in the family members. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But practically that is now their income. The more one gets the worshiping term longer, he gets more income. (laughs) The Deity has got very, very good income. All the temples in India . . . just like I am trying to make some fund for Vṛndāvana and Māyāpur. Even no contribution comes, it will go on. The sevā*-pūjā will not stop for want of money. So there will be no want of money. Still, I must make some provision, by the income the sevā-pūjā will go on. Contribution may come or not. That provision should be made. Now in Vṛndāvana Akṣayānanda is collecting and so many ways. Suppose nobody collects. That does not mean this temple will be closed. It must go on. So I am trying to make some provision from that bank interest, at least five to ten thousand rupees so that the Deity worship will not be stopped. That is the system in all Indian temples. It must go on. Nitya-sevā . It must go on. These big, big temple in Vṛndāvana, they have got such arrangement. Otherwise how it is going on for five hundred, six hundred years? They have very good income. Govindajī has got eighteen thousand rupees monthly income. That is . . . He's the richest Deity in Vṛndāvana. And Raṅganātha is tenant of Govindajī. Land is taken from Govindajī, and Raṅganātha's temple is constructed. The Raṅganātha's temple management pays the rent. So Govindajī is the landlord and Raṅganāthajī is tenant. (laughter) Raṅganāthajī is Rāmānuja-sampradāya, Govindajī is Gauḍīya-sampradāya. (laughter) So Rāmānuja-sampradāya is the tenant of Gauḍīya-sampradāya. (break) . . . government is looting? Hari-śauri: You want to come . . . (indistinct) . . .? Harikeśa: Everybody's coming? Hari-śauri: I guess so. Prabhupāda: No, as many as we want. Why? (end) (in car and at temple) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole thing is being done in one week. I just got the whole text from Nirañjana on Sunday from England. We've got it composed, it is going into printing tomorrow. it will be ready by Vyāsa*-Pūjā. It's a Hindi Back to Godhead on Janmāṣṭamī . . . Prabhupāda: Nirañjana is helping to translate it? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, and he's the most reliable. The others I find are not reliable. Even with Yaśomatīnandana, I give him a book, it gets stuck for three months. But now we are moving very fast. The first Hindi Back to Godhead we printed up forty*-five thousand; *it is sold. So I'm reprinting thirty thousand more in Delhi, and in Bombay we are producing a new Back to Godhead with thirty thousand first print. Forty*-five thousand of first printing is almost sold. People can't believe it. Even Hitsaran Sharma couldn't believe it that we distributed forty-five thousand Hindi magazines in two months. Prabhupāda: We are distributing millions in English. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We got a new import permit to import books worth five lakhs . I think I wrote that to you. And also the government is going to let us . . . Prabhupāda: I saw your wife in New York. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. She's in Dallas now. Also the government's going to give us permission to import paper now, and I have already arranged to get samples of Japanese paper. So this will make our quality very good. The government likes our printing in India. So that's why they gave me this new license. Because I said: "As we import and sell, we print more in India," so they like that. Prabhupāda: What is the temperature here? Hari-śauri: Temperature? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (to driver) What's the temperature, about? *Kartikeya Mahadevia (driving): Outside? Twenty*-nine degrees. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty*-nine degrees. Hari-śauri: What? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty*-nine degrees. Hari-śauri: What's that? Kartikeya Mahadevia: Centigrade. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Centigrade. *Kartikeya Mahadevia: It is about ninety*-five. Ninety, ninety-five. *Hari-śauri: Ninety*-five! *Kartikeya Mahadevia: Ninety, ninety*-five. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: How was it in Iran? Hari-śauri: Nice. Prabhupāda: Iran night, very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was there a year ago. I've gone to Tehran. Prabhupāda: In the morning also it is very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you go on the morning walk now, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard? Prabhupāda: No, not . . . Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda can't climb up stairs. Once he goes upstairs then he'll stay. Prabhupāda: What about the lift here? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The lift will not be ready till . . . your apartment will not be ready till December or January. They can't do it any sooner. Kartikeya Mahadevia: If Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to stay somewhere else, we can find out from people where, who have got lift. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise, I was thinking we have vacant that old flat of Menon on the ground floor. I discussed it with Girirāja, and I just wanted to . . . I was waiting for you. If you like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can convert. That is construction office. We can move the construction office somewhere else, and we can give you that whole flat on the ground floor. Girirāja and I both thought it was a good idea, but I just wanted your approval. We can do that in half a day. It is right on the ground floor. Hari-śauri: That would be very nice. Prabhupāda: Small. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but it is on the ground floor. That's the only advantage. In Vṛndāvana the guesthouse is all completely renovated. S. K. Samani came from Bombay, I showed him around Vṛndāvana, and he booked thirty rooms for ten days in September and October. Oh, it's first class. Prabhupāda: Mr. S. K. Samani? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: S. K. Samani, yes, Shri Krishna Samani. He liked it very much. Now the government has kept two policemen outside our Vṛndāvana temple to control the traffic, there is so much traffic. The policemen told me that we get even more people than Bankibihārī. But I don't think it's a fact, but the policemen say the crowd is bigger than Bankibihārī. Kartikeya Mahadevia: Should I take it around the gate? (indistinct conversation in Hindi)(sounds of traffic) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also a lot of people are coming to the Delhi temple. The Maharani of Jaipur comes every second day. She is the daughter*-in-law of the Maharani Gayatridevi. Everyone, lot of these . . . many people are coming every day to our temple in Delhi. Prabhupāda: What about Hyderabad? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hyderabad will be ready. I was there last week. It will be ready in time. The chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is coming as the chief guest on the day the temple will be opened. Kartikeya Mahadevia: We are getting very good bungalow in Ahmedabad. Six bedroom with six baths, all marble. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we don't have any devotees there. What will we do? Kartikeya Mahadevia: There are eight devotees at least. They have to vacate in any case. They have to go. (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . news stands also. Yaśomatīnandana has made some arrangement with some distributor. Prabhupāda: Newsstand? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, through news, where they sell newspapers and all. *Kartikeya Mahadevia: They distribute about fifteen hundred on Ratha*-yātrā day. Prabhupāda: Fifteen hundred on . . .? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ratha*-yātrā in Ahmedabad. Now we are distributing these books for one rupee each or 1.50 in Vṛndāvana, because now we've got the cost of printing down to sixty paisa . . . *Prabhupāda: Our Ratha*-yātrā in New York was very successful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I saw in the New York Times. I went to the American Embassy in Delhi, and I saw "East Meets West," that was the heading, and there were picture, and Daily News had it on the first page. Hari-śauri: Middle page. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: First page. Hari-śauri: Center pages. Prabhupāda: Three chariots, very gorgeous. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's due to your causeless mercy this is spreading everywhere. There were hundreds of orders from libraries. Actually, we cannot even keep up, there are so many orders coming. Every order has been dispatched, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There's not one order outstanding, but we are getting lot of correspondence, everything. That's why . . . and I spoke to Rāmeśvara two nights ago, he's shipping the books right away. Because we only got the sea. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, first our application for import of books was rejected. Then I went and met this very big man and preached to him. So now he's become a devotee and he said: "You just come to me. I'll give you in one day whatever you want." Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So he gave the import license for five lakhs in one day, he gave, and he also told me how to import paper. Kartikeya Mahadevia: From the other side? Port number five? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, doesn't matter. Anywhere. He also told us how to import paper. Prabhupāda: Gave some hint. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I gave him some books. I meet him regularly now, when I meet him. He'll come to see you in Delhi he said. He's the Joint Chief Controller of Imports and Exports, very high position. So he has the final authority for giving licenses up to one lakh . He said he could give it to us. Prabhupāda: What is the political position here? (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . big celebration here starting tomorrow to the 18th. P. K. Savant—he came to see you last year, the president of Maharashtra Pradesh Congress Committee—he is the chief guest. Mr. Pagay, another, he is the minister from Maharashtra, he's also coming. Very big program. It's being advertised all over Bombay. Prabhupāda: So raining stopped here? Kartikeya Mahadevia: For three days stopped, sir. Otherwise, it was very heavy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's monsoon, it will still rain. Prabhupāda: Throughout whole Europe there is not a drop of water. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They're getting suffering now. Prabhupāda: All, no cloud. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In France I read in the paper that the river was the lowest . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: (at temple) . . . (prema*-dhvani prayers) Thank you very much. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So when you have come? Everything all right? Devotee: Hyderabad will be complete. Prabhupāda: If there is any prasāda for distribution? Hari-śauri: Is there any prasādam for distribution? Devotee: It's coming. Prabhupāda: You are taking so much trouble. Mr. Ashnani: It's a pleasure Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ashnanijī's helping us a lot now. Prabhupāda: He is the cause of this site. Unless he would not help, it was practically lost. I know that. Two, three hours how we finished that sales agreement. Mr. Ashnani: Customs did not open that day anyway. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's right. We are always traveling. They should give us some concession. Every time we get checked. Actually, the government should have given us the best facilities because I am distributing India's culture all over the world. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, I am not receiving encouragement from the leaders and the authorities. This is India's glory. History will say. ( prasādam arrives) Give it. Yes, you can . . . Hari-śauri: Pass it out. Prabhupāda: All people are responding all over the world. They . . . money, men, strength, everything they are supplying. But we are not getting very good encouragement from India. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that every Indian should become guru and preach the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. *This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . and people are hankering after receiving this instruction. Unfortunately, the so*-called svāmīs, yogīs , they are going . . . or even politicians, they are not presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Anyway, so long I live I shall go on struggling like this. That's all. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Nitāi, when you are coming? Nitāi: I came just two days ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Everything is all right? Nitāi: Yes, everything is fine. Prabhupāda: So, now you can disperse. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Take prasādam and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. And we have now nice buildings. Live here peacefully, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās . This is my success. If I see that you are living very nicely, chanting very nicely, then all my labor is successful. Hari-śauri: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So if all the devotees would like to leave now, then Prabhupāda can rest a little bit from traveling. Harikeśa: You can distribute prasādam in the hall. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are older than me. Indian man: Older Your blessings . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Live peacefully, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is for you, so many buildings. Let devotees come, live here peacefully, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That I want. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a lot of devotees visiting Bombay. Prabhupāda: How many devotees? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: On a permanent basis about forty, but there are a few from different centers. *Prabhupāda: (referring to Vyāsa*-pūjā book) Where you have received this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ṛṣabhadeva, president of Spiritual Sky Products. Prabhupāda: President of . . .? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Spiritual Sky in Los Angeles. He has come on a business trip. They were trying to negotiate buying incense sticks from Mysore, sandalwood, and Bangalore. So they are . . . did you get those color proofs I sent you of Bhāgavata ? Did you like? It's coming out quite nicely. Prabhupāda: Not as good as . . . not as good as foreign. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not as good as foreign? That is . . . Prabhupāda: I replied you. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we are going to be printing the softbound book for seven rupees. Prabhupāda: All right, we shall talk later on. Now let me . . . Hari-śauri: Maybe somebody could take these flowers and put them in vases. (indistinct talking in background) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All the pictures have a garland. Prabhupāda: Still you . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Distribute it? Prabhupāda: (chuckling) So you have come. It is good. Pālikā: Would you like to take some fruit now? Prabhupāda: I'll tell you. Not now. Harikeśa: Haribol . (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: Everything came in and nothing is on any passport. Prabhupāda: All right, that's all right. Harikeśa: Oh, you had the key. Does the Dictaphone work? All right, you take the keys back. The Dictaphone. Hari-śauri: . . . (indistinct) Harikeśa: Just one second. If you can open it I can . . . or just pass it to me and I'll open it. Prabhupāda: That projector also there? Harikeśa: Projector? Prabhupāda: No, there was no projector. Hari-śauri: No, no. That was Ātreya Ṛṣi's. Harikeśa: Yes, we should have many of those in India. Hari-śauri: First class. Harikeśa: They're so marvelous. Hari-śauri: This is a desk. Harikeśa: Do you have the almirah key? Hari-śauri: This is almirah . Harikeśa: Prabhupāda's bedroom almirah somehow got out here, or is that the office almirah ? Prabhupāda: Which almirah ? Which almirah ? Hari-śauri: The sitting room, it says. This one, I think. Maybe it's not. Harikeśa: I can go check on that. Hari-śauri: They weren't labeled when we were here, they were labeled a long time afterwards. Harikeśa: This is not for this. Hari-śauri: This is the cash box. Harikeśa: This one has two keys, Hari-śauri. They say "one" and "two." This is not it. This is the key for the inside. This is not this key. Hari-śauri: It's this one. This is it. They all fell off the hoop. Harikeśa: Oh. Do you have the key to these two almirahs out here? Hari-śauri: There's some keys that we didn't know where they fitted. Prabhupāda: So, how are you? Girirāja: Fine. Prabhupāda: Everything is going? Girirāja: Yes, very nicely. Prabhupāda: And the lift is . . . oh! Hare Kṛṣṇa. Lift is not available. Hari-śauri: They're all here now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There was one key that dropped off the hoop. There's one, two, and the small cash box inside. Harikeśa: This is the cash box key. For this box. Hari-śauri: What are these keys? This, this . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, how he can know? Harikeśa: He had one key, I think, for one of these. Girirāja: I don't have. Prabhupāda: Keep in the bag everything. Hari-śauri: Yes, they're all in the bag there somewhere. A couple weren't labeled. This is here. Prabhupāda: Everything all right? Indian man: Very comfortable journey? There was weather? Prabhupāda: (chuckles) There was no water. All over Europe there is no cloud, no water. Girirāja: No water? Prabhupāda: No water. Harikeśa: Big drought. They just had to close the factories in Wales because there's no water now. Girirāja: It's a reaction to their sinful activities. Prabhupāda: It will be increasing throughout the whole world. Anāvṛṣṭi . Hari-śauri: They think it's just happening by chance. *Prabhupāda: Godless civilization. Sinful activities. The reaction will increase—no rainfall, scarcity of food grains, and government taxes. These are written in Bhāgavata. Anāvṛṣṭi*-durbhikṣa kara-pīḍitāḥ (SB 12.2.9). Government will exact tax more and more. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a scientific study done by the CIA in America, this study done by the CIA on world weather conditions. And they concluded that the world weather conditions will only get worse and worse. There's going to be drought every three, four years, and so there will not be food production. Prabhupāda: It is predicted in the Bhāgavata five thousand years ago. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They're having earthquakes in China now. Hari-śauri: Yes, big ones. They say a million people died in the last one. Prabhupāda: You have got the keys for that? Hari-śauri: I think they're . . . that last set that I gave you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? These, yes. Prabhupāda: Now print books many, as good as possible, and distribute. Let us do our duty. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have three small Hindi books in production, plus as I said, Hindi Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: Oh. This silver loṭā has become very black. You can get it polished. Prabhupāda: See if there is . . . Hari-śauri: If there's . . .? Prabhupāda: If there is worms. Hari-śauri: I was just looking in the corners. There's some spiders, I think, and there's some signs again of worms. Some powdered remains and things like that. Prabhupāda: So we shall . . . Hari-śauri: So I think if we do it once more then it should be finished. *Indian boy: I come from Tanzania, Dar*-es-Salaam. Hari-śauri: That's in Africa. Indian boy: Yes. And we are the Life Member of ISKCON. You know Navayogendra dāsa of Nairobi? Now he is transferred in Mombassa. Prabhupāda: Navayogendra, yes. Indian boy: Yes, he came there between 1975 or 1974 and he made us the member. He's now in Mombassa. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . So when you have come here? Hari-śauri: When have you come here? Indian boy: Here? We just came for a holiday trip. Prabhupāda: Where you are staying? Indian boy: In Malad. Prabhupāda: So come tomorrow at five. Indian boy: At five. Do you have the Hare Kṛṣṇa Cookbook ? Prabhupāda: Ask him . . . Hari-śauri: If you like, go out there now and see Girirāja. He's the president. He'll fix you up. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian boy: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: Get some prasādam when you go. Indian boy: Yes. Prabhupāda: So cleanse this. Hari-śauri: This spittoon? They . . . oh. They've put one here, actually. This is the bathing loṭā , but there's one here also. Oh, they used this for bathing your feet. This is a new loṭā for drinking until . . . I'll clean this silver one. (long pause) Prabhupāda: This is spittoon? Hari-śauri: Yes. (break) Prabhupāda: So? What fruit you have got? Hari-śauri: I'll go and check. Prabhupāda: Ask somebody to call Saurabha. Pālikā: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is this? Pālikā: Some sweet one girl has made here. Prabhupāda: Not everyone should make. She is initiated? Pālikā: Yes. I will generally make, but I just arrived today, so there was not time. (pause) (end) (in car and at temple) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole thing is being done in one week. I just got the whole text from Nirañjana on Sunday from England. We've got it composed, it is going into printing tomorrow. it will be ready by Vyāsa*-Pūjā. It's a Hindi Back to Godhead on Janmāṣṭamī . . . Prabhupāda: Nirañjana is helping to translate it? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, and he's the most reliable. The others I find are not reliable. Even with Yaśomatīnandana, I give him a book, it gets stuck for three months. But now we are moving very fast. The first Hindi Back to Godhead we printed up forty*-five thousand; *it is sold. So I'm reprinting thirty thousand more in Delhi, and in Bombay we are producing a new Back to Godhead with thirty thousand first print. Forty*-five thousand of first printing is almost sold. People can't believe it. Even Hitsaran Sharma couldn't believe it that we distributed forty-five thousand Hindi magazines in two months. Prabhupāda: We are distributing millions in English. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We got a new import permit to import books worth five lakhs . I think I wrote that to you. And also the government is going to let us . . . Prabhupāda: I saw your wife in New York. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. She's in Dallas now. Also the government's going to give us permission to import paper now, and I have already arranged to get samples of Japanese paper. So this will make our quality very good. The government likes our printing in India. So that's why they gave me this new license. Because I said: "As we import and sell, we print more in India," so they like that. Prabhupāda: What is the temperature here? Hari-śauri: Temperature? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (to driver) What's the temperature, about? *Kartikeya Mahadevia (driving): Outside? Twenty*-nine degrees. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty*-nine degrees. Hari-śauri: What? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty*-nine degrees. Hari-śauri: What's that? Kartikeya Mahadevia: Centigrade. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Centigrade. *Kartikeya Mahadevia: It is about ninety*-five. Ninety, ninety-five. *Hari-śauri: Ninety*-five! *Kartikeya Mahadevia: Ninety, ninety*-five. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: How was it in Iran? Hari-śauri: Nice. Prabhupāda: Iran night, very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was there a year ago. I've gone to Tehran. Prabhupāda: In the morning also it is very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you go on the morning walk now, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard? Prabhupāda: No, not . . . Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda can't climb up stairs. Once he goes upstairs then he'll stay. Prabhupāda: What about the lift here? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The lift will not be ready till . . . your apartment will not be ready till December or January. They can't do it any sooner. Kartikeya Mahadevia: If Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to stay somewhere else, we can find out from people where, who have got lift. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise, I was thinking we have vacant that old flat of Menon on the ground floor. I discussed it with Girirāja, and I just wanted to . . . I was waiting for you. If you like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can convert. That is construction office. We can move the construction office somewhere else, and we can give you that whole flat on the ground floor. Girirāja and I both thought it was a good idea, but I just wanted your approval. We can do that in half a day. It is right on the ground floor. Hari-śauri: That would be very nice. Prabhupāda: Small. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but it is on the ground floor. That's the only advantage. In Vṛndāvana the guesthouse is all completely renovated. S. K. Samani came from Bombay, I showed him around Vṛndāvana, and he booked thirty rooms for ten days in September and October. Oh, it's first class. Prabhupāda: Mr. S. K. Samani? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: S. K. Samani, yes, Shri Krishna Samani. He liked it very much. Now the government has kept two policemen outside our Vṛndāvana temple to control the traffic, there is so much traffic. The policemen told me that we get even more people than Bankibihārī. But I don't think it's a fact, but the policemen say the crowd is bigger than Bankibihārī. Kartikeya Mahadevia: Should I take it around the gate? (indistinct conversation in Hindi)(sounds of traffic) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also a lot of people are coming to the Delhi temple. The Maharani of Jaipur comes every second day. She is the daughter*-in-law of the Maharani Gayatridevi. Everyone, lot of these . . . many people are coming every day to our temple in Delhi. Prabhupāda: What about Hyderabad? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hyderabad will be ready. I was there last week. It will be ready in time. The chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is coming as the chief guest on the day the temple will be opened. Kartikeya Mahadevia: We are getting very good bungalow in Ahmedabad. Six bedroom with six baths, all marble. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we don't have any devotees there. What will we do? Kartikeya Mahadevia: There are eight devotees at least. They have to vacate in any case. They have to go. (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . news stands also. Yaśomatīnandana has made some arrangement with some distributor. Prabhupāda: Newsstand? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, through news, where they sell newspapers and all. *Kartikeya Mahadevia: They distribute about fifteen hundred on Ratha*-yātrā day. Prabhupāda: Fifteen hundred on . . .? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ratha*-yātrā in Ahmedabad. Now we are distributing these books for one rupee each or 1.50 in Vṛndāvana, because now we've got the cost of printing down to sixty paisa . . . *Prabhupāda: Our Ratha*-yātrā in New York was very successful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I saw in the New York Times. I went to the American Embassy in Delhi, and I saw "East Meets West," that was the heading, and there were picture, and Daily News had it on the first page. Hari-śauri: Middle page. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: First page. Hari-śauri: Center pages. Prabhupāda: Three chariots, very gorgeous. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's due to your causeless mercy this is spreading everywhere. There were hundreds of orders from libraries. Actually, we cannot even keep up, there are so many orders coming. Every order has been dispatched, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There's not one order outstanding, but we are getting lot of correspondence, everything. That's why . . . and I spoke to Rāmeśvara two nights ago, he's shipping the books right away. Because we only got the sea. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, first our application for import of books was rejected. Then I went and met this very big man and preached to him. So now he's become a devotee and he said: "You just come to me. I'll give you in one day whatever you want." Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So he gave the import license for five lakhs in one day, he gave, and he also told me how to import paper. Kartikeya Mahadevia: From the other side? Port number five? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, doesn't matter. Anywhere. He also told us how to import paper. Prabhupāda: Gave some hint. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I gave him some books. I meet him regularly now, when I meet him. He'll come to see you in Delhi he said. He's the Joint Chief Controller of Imports and Exports, very high position. So he has the final authority for giving licenses up to one lakh . He said he could give it to us. Prabhupāda: What is the political position here? (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . big celebration here starting tomorrow to the 18th. P. K. Savant—he came to see you last year, the president of Maharashtra Pradesh Congress Committee—he is the chief guest. Mr. Pagay, another, he is the minister from Maharashtra, he's also coming. Very big program. It's being advertised all over Bombay. Prabhupāda: So raining stopped here? Kartikeya Mahadevia: For three days stopped, sir. Otherwise, it was very heavy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's monsoon, it will still rain. Prabhupāda: Throughout whole Europe there is not a drop of water. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They're getting suffering now. Prabhupāda: All, no cloud. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In France I read in the paper that the river was the lowest . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: (at temple) . . . (prema*-dhvani prayers) Thank you very much. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So when you have come? Everything all right? Devotee: Hyderabad will be complete. Prabhupāda: If there is any prasāda for distribution? Hari-śauri: Is there any prasādam for distribution? Devotee: It's coming. Prabhupāda: You are taking so much trouble. Mr. Ashnani: It's a pleasure Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ashnanijī's helping us a lot now. Prabhupāda: He is the cause of this site. Unless he would not help, it was practically lost. I know that. Two, three hours how we finished that sales agreement. Mr. Ashnani: Customs did not open that day anyway. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's right. We are always traveling. They should give us some concession. Every time we get checked. Actually, the government should have given us the best facilities because I am distributing India's culture all over the world. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, I am not receiving encouragement from the leaders and the authorities. This is India's glory. History will say. ( prasādam arrives) Give it. Yes, you can . . . Hari-śauri: Pass it out. Prabhupāda: All people are responding all over the world. They . . . money, men, strength, everything they are supplying. But we are not getting very good encouragement from India. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that every Indian should become guru and preach the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. *This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . and people are hankering after receiving this instruction. Unfortunately, the so*-called svāmīs, yogīs , they are going . . . or even politicians, they are not presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Anyway, so long I live I shall go on struggling like this. That's all. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Nitāi, when you are coming? Nitāi: I came just two days ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Everything is all right? Nitāi: Yes, everything is fine. Prabhupāda: So, now you can disperse. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Take prasādam and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. And we have now nice buildings. Live here peacefully, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās . This is my success. If I see that you are living very nicely, chanting very nicely, then all my labor is successful. Hari-śauri: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So if all the devotees would like to leave now, then Prabhupāda can rest a little bit from traveling. Harikeśa: You can distribute prasādam in the hall. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are older than me. Indian man: Older Your blessings . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Live peacefully, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is for you, so many buildings. Let devotees come, live here peacefully, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That I want. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a lot of devotees visiting Bombay. Prabhupāda: How many devotees? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: On a permanent basis about forty, but there are a few from different centers. *Prabhupāda: (referring to Vyāsa*-pūjā book) Where you have received this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ṛṣabhadeva, president of Spiritual Sky Products. Prabhupāda: President of . . .? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Spiritual Sky in Los Angeles. He has come on a business trip. They were trying to negotiate buying incense sticks from Mysore, sandalwood, and Bangalore. So they are . . . did you get those color proofs I sent you of Bhāgavata ? Did you like? It's coming out quite nicely. Prabhupāda: Not as good as . . . not as good as foreign. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not as good as foreign? That is . . . Prabhupāda: I replied you. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we are going to be printing the softbound book for seven rupees. Prabhupāda: All right, we shall talk later on. Now let me . . . Hari-śauri: Maybe somebody could take these flowers and put them in vases. (indistinct talking in background) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All the pictures have a garland. Prabhupāda: Still you . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Distribute it? Prabhupāda: (chuckling) So you have come. It is good. Pālikā: Would you like to take some fruit now? Prabhupāda: I'll tell you. Not now. Harikeśa: Haribol . (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: Everything came in and nothing is on any passport. Prabhupāda: All right, that's all right. Harikeśa: Oh, you had the key. Does the Dictaphone work? All right, you take the keys back. The Dictaphone. Hari-śauri: . . . (indistinct) Harikeśa: Just one second. If you can open it I can . . . or just pass it to me and I'll open it. Prabhupāda: That projector also there? Harikeśa: Projector? Prabhupāda: No, there was no projector. Hari-śauri: No, no. That was Ātreya Ṛṣi's. Harikeśa: Yes, we should have many of those in India. Hari-śauri: First class. Harikeśa: They're so marvelous. Hari-śauri: This is a desk. Harikeśa: Do you have the almirah key? Hari-śauri: This is almirah . Harikeśa: Prabhupāda's bedroom almirah somehow got out here, or is that the office almirah ? Prabhupāda: Which almirah ? Which almirah ? Hari-śauri: The sitting room, it says. This one, I think. Maybe it's not. Harikeśa: I can go check on that. Hari-śauri: They weren't labeled when we were here, they were labeled a long time afterwards. Harikeśa: This is not for this. Hari-śauri: This is the cash box. Harikeśa: This one has two keys, Hari-śauri. They say "one" and "two." This is not it. This is the key for the inside. This is not this key. Hari-śauri: It's this one. This is it. They all fell off the hoop. Harikeśa: Oh. Do you have the key to these two almirahs out here? Hari-śauri: There's some keys that we didn't know where they fitted. Prabhupāda: So, how are you? Girirāja: Fine. Prabhupāda: Everything is going? Girirāja: Yes, very nicely. Prabhupāda: And the lift is . . . oh! Hare Kṛṣṇa. Lift is not available. Hari-śauri: They're all here now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There was one key that dropped off the hoop. There's one, two, and the small cash box inside. Harikeśa: This is the cash box key. For this box. Hari-śauri: What are these keys? This, this . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, how he can know? Harikeśa: He had one key, I think, for one of these. Girirāja: I don't have. Prabhupāda: Keep in the bag everything. Hari-śauri: Yes, they're all in the bag there somewhere. A couple weren't labeled. This is here. Prabhupāda: Everything all right? Indian man: Very comfortable journey? There was weather? Prabhupāda: (chuckles) There was no water. All over Europe there is no cloud, no water. Girirāja: No water? Prabhupāda: No water. Harikeśa: Big drought. They just had to close the factories in Wales because there's no water now. Girirāja: It's a reaction to their sinful activities. Prabhupāda: It will be increasing throughout the whole world. Anāvṛṣṭi . Hari-śauri: They think it's just happening by chance. *Prabhupāda: Godless civilization. Sinful activities. The reaction will increase—no rainfall, scarcity of food grains, and government taxes. These are written in Bhāgavata. Anāvṛṣṭi*-durbhikṣa kara-pīḍitāḥ (SB 12.2.9). Government will exact tax more and more. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a scientific study done by the CIA in America, this study done by the CIA on world weather conditions. And they concluded that the world weather conditions will only get worse and worse. There's going to be drought every three, four years, and so there will not be food production. Prabhupāda: It is predicted in the Bhāgavata five thousand years ago. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They're having earthquakes in China now. Hari-śauri: Yes, big ones. They say a million people died in the last one. Prabhupāda: You have got the keys for that? Hari-śauri: I think they're . . . that last set that I gave you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? These, yes. Prabhupāda: Now print books many, as good as possible, and distribute. Let us do our duty. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have three small Hindi books in production, plus as I said, Hindi Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: Oh. This silver loṭā has become very black. You can get it polished. Prabhupāda: See if there is . . . Hari-śauri: If there's . . .? Prabhupāda: If there is worms. Hari-śauri: I was just looking in the corners. There's some spiders, I think, and there's some signs again of worms. Some powdered remains and things like that. Prabhupāda: So we shall . . . Hari-śauri: So I think if we do it once more then it should be finished. *Indian boy: I come from Tanzania, Dar*-es-Salaam. Hari-śauri: That's in Africa. Indian boy: Yes. And we are the Life Member of ISKCON. You know Navayogendra dāsa of Nairobi? Now he is transferred in Mombassa. Prabhupāda: Navayogendra, yes. Indian boy: Yes, he came there between 1975 or 1974 and he made us the member. He's now in Mombassa. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . So when you have come here? Hari-śauri: When have you come here? Indian boy: Here? We just came for a holiday trip. Prabhupāda: Where you are staying? Indian boy: In Malad. Prabhupāda: So come tomorrow at five. Indian boy: At five. Do you have the Hare Kṛṣṇa Cookbook ? Prabhupāda: Ask him . . . Hari-śauri: If you like, go out there now and see Girirāja. He's the president. He'll fix you up. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian boy: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: Get some prasādam when you go. Indian boy: Yes. Prabhupāda: So cleanse this. Hari-śauri: This spittoon? They . . . oh. They've put one here, actually. This is the bathing loṭā , but there's one here also. Oh, they used this for bathing your feet. This is a new loṭā for drinking until . . . I'll clean this silver one. (long pause) Prabhupāda: This is spittoon? Hari-śauri: Yes. (break) Prabhupāda: So? What fruit you have got? Hari-śauri: I'll go and check. Prabhupāda: Ask somebody to call Saurabha. Pālikā: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is this? Pālikā: Some sweet one girl has made here. Prabhupāda: Not everyone should make. She is initiated? Pālikā: Yes. I will generally make, but I just arrived today, so there was not time. (pause) (end) Prabhupāda: So they were not crying very loudly, but the grandfather inquired, "So why there is . . . it appears there is some great suffering?" So my father's eldest brother, he inquired, "Is your mother dead?" I consider like that. No, no . . . (indistinct) . . . "So I am also dead." He died later on. Dr. Patel: Next day. Prabhupāda: Hmm. He simply inquired, "I think your mother is dead." They said: "No, no." "No, I am also going to," and he died. Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: These things are not very wonderful. From spiritual point of view this has no meaning. This is worldly affection. It is worldly affection. That is not very good asset for spiritual life. Āsakti . One has to give up āsakti . That is the process, renouncement. Voluntarily. *Dr. Patel: Anāsakta*-manaḥ . Prabhupāda: Yes. Our Vedic process is that at a certain age you must retire from family life. Voluntary, forceful, giving up association. Dr. Patel: Even there is worship . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. So these are āsaktis . This husband and wife dying together, it is . . . (indistinct) . . . because āsakti is there. That āsakti will help him, that the wife will become a husband next life, and the husband will become wife next. And in that way they'll have to take birth again. Dr. Patel: Soul has got no sex. *Prabhupāda: Karma*-bandha . *Dr. Patel: Karma*-bandha and jīva . Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, Fifth Canto, Fifth Chapter. Harikeśa: Karmātmakaṁ yena ? *Prabhupāda: Ah, śarīra*-bandha. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam, yāvat mano vai karma . . .? Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Bandha . Harikeśa: "As long as one does not inquire about the spiritual values of life, one is defeated and subjected to miseries arising from ignorance. Be it sinful or pious, karma has its resultant actions. If a person is engaged in any kind of karma , his mind is called karmātmaka: colored with fruitive activity. As long as the mind is impure, consciousness is unclear. And as long as one is absorbed in fruitive activity, he has to accept a material body." Prabhupāda: That's all. Lābh wahi hogā. (That is the only result.) The woman will become man and the man will become woman. Dr. Patel: So long you are taking birth . . . Prabhupāda: What action you have got? Before that the verse is, So this body is temporary, but it is very miserable. That they do not understand. *Dr. Patel: Kuṇape tri*-dhātuke . Prabhupāda: That they do not understand. That as soon as you accept a material body, either a very rich man's body or poor man's body or any body, either brahmin's body or śūdra's body, to accept material body means undergo miseries. Dr. Patel: But you have no choice to accept. By the will of God . . . Prabhupāda: No, you have got . . . you can become free. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . . . *Dr. Patel: Bhakti*-avyabhicāriṇī . I have got that tendency, bhakti , avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti . *Prabhupāda: No, no, simply to know Kṛṣṇa. Māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena ya . . . so you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa without bhakti . Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). So without bhakti-yoga there is no possibility to understand Kṛṣṇa. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you'll become free from this process of accepting material body. *Dr. Patel: Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the only business, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and avoid this botheration of repeating body, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is there. If you want to stop dehāntara-prāptiḥ , then you have to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no other way. But if you think that it is very pleasure to enter within the womb of mother and accept one body, and again come out and again work, and again die and again enter, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19) . . . if you want this business, that is your choice. You can do it. But if you want to stop it, then this is the only way. Therefore śāstra says na sādhu manye . It is not good. Nūnam . Read that verse. Harikeśa: *Prabhupāda: Kleśada āsa dehaḥ. Kleśada , as soon as you get a body, kleśada . May have good doctor friend, but I'll have to suffer. (Dr. Patel laughs) We can get some relief, but suffering is there. Therefore na sādhu manye . It is not good. So people are being trained up to become mad, pramattaḥ . And do anything, bring money. This is the modern civilization. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma . Things which are forbidden, they are doing that. Why? Indriya*-prītaya āpṛṇoti, only for sense gratification. They have no other ambition. Bring money and gratify senses. This is modern civilization. This is the exact explanation— nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Black money, white money, this money, that . . . never mind, bring money. Dr. Patel: (laughter) By any way. *Prabhupāda: Yes, this is modern civilization. Big man, big rich man, means bring money some way or other. This is big man. This is Kali*-yuga. Because if you have got money, you have got respect, you have got honor, you have got . . . you are recognized. So therefore they are after money. Bring money, that's all right. When I shall get money, I may have done black money, force money, this money, nobody will remember it. Bās . This is modern civilization. Bring money and enjoy sense. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). What for it is, struggle so much working hard? Yad indriya-prītaya : only for the satisfaction of the senses. They have no other ambition. Because most of them, they do not believe there is next life. Most of them, 99.9 percent, they do not believe. Big, big professor . . . I have talked with so many big, big men in Europe. They have no faith . . . our leaders also. The Munshi, he did not believe in the next life. Dr. Patel: There is research in parapsychology in certain municipality of India, they have proved that there is rebirth. *Prabhupāda: That they may do, a very great service, but we know it without going to through psychological process. We believe Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), bās , finished. What is the use of going to the psychology and . . .? Dr. Patel: But those . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, those who are fools, they may waste their time in that way. (laughter) But we are not so fool. Dr. Patel: They are fools to not to think that they'll become . . . *Prabhupāda: They are rascal fools because they do not take Kṛṣṇa's word. Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Why should we bother? Our mission is simply to propagate Kṛṣṇa's instructions. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't manufacture anything. So-called yoga , so-called meditation, so-called this and . . . we don't care for all this nonsense. Our only business is how to implement the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, the rascals may understand and be happy. That is our mission. We haven't got to manufacture anything. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bās . You simply carry the message of Kṛṣṇa and try to deliver it to anyone you meet. This is our . . . we haven't got to manufacture anything. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Take it. No interpretation. Don't spoil the whole thing. Interpretation means spoiling. Whole thing spoiled. Dr. Patel: Each man understands according to his own level of understanding. Prabhupāda: No. Suppose, just like you are medical man, you are giving somebody medicine, you are giving the direction. If he wants to be cured, he must take your direction. Not that somebody comes, "No, no, you can take it this way, you can do this." That is nonsense. That is nonsense. This nonsense we want to stop. Kṛṣṇa is giving the instruction, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12), the Supreme Personality of Godhead. What business you have got to poke your nose and give interpretation? Are you bigger than Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa left it for you? This nonsense going on. Big, big svāmīs , big, big yogīs , big, big politicians, simply misinterpreting, he's spoiling his own life and he's spoiling others. Bās . This is going on. Very serious condition. Dr. Patel: You are not going to go down now? Prabhupāda: No. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to go on the terrace, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: If I like, I can . . . Dr. Patel: Abhi upar chalne ka muskil hota hai. (Now it is difficult to walk up.) Prabhupāda: Chalne ka nahi muskil hota hai . . . (It is not difficult to walk . . .) (indistinct) . . . why I have taken so much trouble? Dr. Patel: They are already traced out. So we come here. *Prabhupāda: No, you come and preach. The country is going to hell, the human society is going to hell for misguidance. These rascal leaders, they're going to hell themselves and they're leading others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). These fools and rascals are leading, they are going to hell, and they are taking the followers to the hell. This is going on. Stop this. At least in India. Save. That is real para-upakāra . That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. *Para*-upakāra . Our India is not meant for exploiting others. Doing good to others, that is India's mission. Our teachers, our ācāryas , do not teach us, "Go and exploit others and bring money"—British Empire. This is not India. Dr. Patel: Even Jesus never taught that. These are the wrong followers. Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ is different thing than that. I mean to say generally, generally the people, they want to exploit others. Dr. Patel: It is the greed of the human being. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but the mission should be, human being should be meant for doing good to others. Para*-upakāra . That para-upakāra spirit is gone on account of losing our own culture. Otherwise, India's culture is para-upakāra . India was open, "Come everyone, learn." Lord Jesus Christ also came here. All the Chinese, learned scholars, they used to come. The history is there. And India was open. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam . This is Indian culture. Even the enemy comes, "Yes, please come, you stay." But later on, they took advantage, "Oh, they are very liberal. Enter there." And still we are liberal, "Please come here, stay here and take prasādam free, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Open to everyone. I shall manage anyway. I shall travel, still I shall lay down my life and bring money. "Come here, stay." Still we are liberal. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). First of all, make your life successful by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then do good to others. *Yesterday, I think, in Tehran, one boy came. He proposed that is it not good to help others? I immediately challenged, "What you have got you can help? What is your asset?" You cannot help. It is simply bogus proposition. If you can help, you can simply help by spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "Sir, I have come to you." "Why?" "To request you that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious." "How?" Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ , "Always think of Me, just become My devotee, offer little obeisances." Anyone can do. A child can do. You cannot do? What is the difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Is there any difficulty? You haven't got to practice any yoga process, pressing your nose or keeping your head or this or that. No. Nothing. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68): "Without any doubt you are coming back to Me." And that is the highest perfection, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). There is no difficulty in preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no difficulty to accept it. And the result is the supreme. Dr. Patel: These are the people who have no faith. Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to canvass. They have no faith, I know that. Then why there is necessity of preaching all over the world? They have no faith, it is a fact. And you have to create faith. That is preaching. Padayor nipatya. That Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī: This is preaching. Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, what is that? Kāku-śataṁ padayor nipatya , kāku-śatam kṛtvā, śatam , "I fall down on your feet, and I am flattering you with folded hands." "Why? Why? What do you want to say?" "Yes, I have to say something." "What is that? Say it! Why you are becoming so humble?" "Yes, I have to say." "What? Say it!" He sādhavaḥ , "You are a very nice sādhu . But you forget all nonsense." Dr. Patel: That's kāku-śatam. *Prabhupāda: He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya , "Whatever nonsense you have learned, forget." Then what to do? Kāku-śataṁ bravīmi sakalam eva vihāya dūrād caitanya*-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam . "You just become devotee of Lord Caitanya. I am flattering you, I am falling down on your feet"—this is preaching. And what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . .? Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). And if you do that, then what is the result? Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). If one is doing like that, Kṛṣṇa immediately recognizes, "Oh, you are the best friend of Mine." So if you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, then what you want more? You are undergoing so much austerities and . . . to be recognized by God. And God says that "Immediately I recognize you." Whom? One who is doing this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). Immediately. You may be a fool, you may be rascal, you may be illiterate. But if you do this, immediately Kṛṣṇa recognizes. Kṛṣṇa never said that unless one is a big grammarian, big scientist, big politician, big engineer, big doctor, then I recognize. No. Simply one who does this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam . What is that paramaṁ guhyam? Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66): "Give up all nonsense. Surrender to Me." This is paramaṁ guhyam . And they are simply manufacturing nonsense. *So the time is very bad, but nature's law is very strict. We may defy it, "There is no God, there is no next birth, there is no nothing." We may say like that, but when death will come, you cannot say anything. Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). Bās , all your talkings, all your intelligence taken away. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Immediately transferred to another body. Daiva-netreṇa. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). "No, no, I am Prime Minister!" "No, you must become a dog." (laughter) Immediately. How can you protest? You cannot protest. You have acted like dog; *just become a dog. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya. Just like your medical science: you have infected the disease, you must suffer it. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ. Guṇa-saṅgaḥ . There's infection. Dr. Patel: Only in nirguṇa , a man can become nirguṇa by . . . Prabhupāda: Eh, don't talk of nirguṇa . First of all (laughter) become a dog. Dr. Patel: Because the only thing that can bring nirguṇa , then you may stop from getting a dog, if you do the bhakti . That is what I mean. Prabhupāda: Nirguṇa means bhakti . Nirguṇa means bhakti . Sa guṇān samatītyaitān (BG 14.26). That is nirguṇa . When you are untouched by the three guṇas , then you are nirguṇa . That is not very easy job. Dr. Patel: Very difficult. Prabhupāda: That is not easy. *Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati (BG 18.54). Nirguṇa is not so easy thing. This is nirguṇa . Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66). This is nirguṇa . Otherwise, everything sa guṇān , everything sa guṇān . Only fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, nirguṇa. This is . . . so . . . Humara desh me Bhagavad-gītā hai ispar instructions hai, ise cchor chaar karte hai. (There is Bhagavad-gītā in our country. The instructions are all there but they are giving up everything.) They are talking, "Yes, you take Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa." They say it. And they are doing that. Dr. Patel: Who? *Prabhupāda: Anyone. Take Mahatma Gandhi. He was so great student of Bhagavad*-gītā . Did he preach kṛṣṇa-bhakti? Bhagavad-gītā minus Kṛṣṇa, this is going on. Yes. Kaṁsa. Kill Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. What is the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? And everyone is preaching like that. Very worse condition of the world, godlessness, and they'll suffer, there is no doubt. Prakṛti is very strong. You can do whatever you like, but kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya , that will act. You may be very proud of your so-called prestigious position, but the kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya . . . puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi . . . (BG 13.22). Find out. *Guest: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . *Prabhupāda: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . He has to. He has to. Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān . So we are now put into the material prakṛti , and prakṛti-jān guṇān , we have to accept another body. This is the rascaldom. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Prasādam , you have got? (devotees offer obeisances) What is the report? Yaśomatīnandana: We are publishing monthly magazine every month now. One is coming out in a few days for Janmāṣṭamī. And we have changed new house, very good house . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is the rent? Yaśomatīnandana: Land also . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, rent. Yaśomatīnandana: Rent is thousand rupees. One thousand rupees, plus tax for government. Prabhupāda: Plus twelve hundred? Yaśomatīnandana: No, plus two hundred tax. They are Life Members from Ahmedabad. They came to see Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. So give them place to stay. So . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) Prabhupāda: So they were not crying very loudly, but the grandfather inquired, "So why there is . . . it appears there is some great suffering?" So my father's eldest brother, he inquired, "Is your mother dead?" I consider like that. No, no . . . (indistinct) . . . "So I am also dead." He died later on. Dr. Patel: Next day. Prabhupāda: Hmm. He simply inquired, "I think your mother is dead." They said: "No, no." "No, I am also going to," and he died. Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: These things are not very wonderful. From spiritual point of view this has no meaning. This is worldly affection. It is worldly affection. That is not very good asset for spiritual life. Āsakti . One has to give up āsakti . That is the process, renouncement. Voluntarily. *Dr. Patel: Anāsakta*-manaḥ . Prabhupāda: Yes. Our Vedic process is that at a certain age you must retire from family life. Voluntary, forceful, giving up association. Dr. Patel: Even there is worship . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. So these are āsaktis . This husband and wife dying together, it is . . . (indistinct) . . . because āsakti is there. That āsakti will help him, that the wife will become a husband next life, and the husband will become wife next. And in that way they'll have to take birth again. Dr. Patel: Soul has got no sex. *Prabhupāda: Karma*-bandha . *Dr. Patel: Karma*-bandha and jīva . Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, Fifth Canto, Fifth Chapter. Harikeśa: Karmātmakaṁ yena ? *Prabhupāda: Ah, śarīra*-bandha. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam, yāvat mano vai karma . . .? Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Bandha . Harikeśa: "As long as one does not inquire about the spiritual values of life, one is defeated and subjected to miseries arising from ignorance. Be it sinful or pious, karma has its resultant actions. If a person is engaged in any kind of karma , his mind is called karmātmaka: colored with fruitive activity. As long as the mind is impure, consciousness is unclear. And as long as one is absorbed in fruitive activity, he has to accept a material body." Prabhupāda: That's all. Lābh wahi hogā. (That is the only result.) The woman will become man and the man will become woman. Dr. Patel: So long you are taking birth . . . Prabhupāda: What action you have got? Before that the verse is, So this body is temporary, but it is very miserable. That they do not understand. *Dr. Patel: Kuṇape tri*-dhātuke . Prabhupāda: That they do not understand. That as soon as you accept a material body, either a very rich man's body or poor man's body or any body, either brahmin's body or śūdra's body, to accept material body means undergo miseries. Dr. Patel: But you have no choice to accept. By the will of God . . . Prabhupāda: No, you have got . . . you can become free. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . . . *Dr. Patel: Bhakti*-avyabhicāriṇī . I have got that tendency, bhakti , avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti . *Prabhupāda: No, no, simply to know Kṛṣṇa. Māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena ya . . . so you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa without bhakti . Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). So without bhakti-yoga there is no possibility to understand Kṛṣṇa. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you'll become free from this process of accepting material body. *Dr. Patel: Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the only business, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and avoid this botheration of repeating body, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is there. If you want to stop dehāntara-prāptiḥ , then you have to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no other way. But if you think that it is very pleasure to enter within the womb of mother and accept one body, and again come out and again work, and again die and again enter, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19) . . . if you want this business, that is your choice. You can do it. But if you want to stop it, then this is the only way. Therefore śāstra says na sādhu manye . It is not good. Nūnam . Read that verse. Harikeśa: *Prabhupāda: Kleśada āsa dehaḥ. Kleśada , as soon as you get a body, kleśada . May have good doctor friend, but I'll have to suffer. (Dr. Patel laughs) We can get some relief, but suffering is there. Therefore na sādhu manye . It is not good. So people are being trained up to become mad, pramattaḥ . And do anything, bring money. This is the modern civilization. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma . Things which are forbidden, they are doing that. Why? Indriya*-prītaya āpṛṇoti, only for sense gratification. They have no other ambition. Bring money and gratify senses. This is modern civilization. This is the exact explanation— nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Black money, white money, this money, that . . . never mind, bring money. Dr. Patel: (laughter) By any way. *Prabhupāda: Yes, this is modern civilization. Big man, big rich man, means bring money some way or other. This is big man. This is Kali*-yuga. Because if you have got money, you have got respect, you have got honor, you have got . . . you are recognized. So therefore they are after money. Bring money, that's all right. When I shall get money, I may have done black money, force money, this money, nobody will remember it. Bās . This is modern civilization. Bring money and enjoy sense. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). What for it is, struggle so much working hard? Yad indriya-prītaya : only for the satisfaction of the senses. They have no other ambition. Because most of them, they do not believe there is next life. Most of them, 99.9 percent, they do not believe. Big, big professor . . . I have talked with so many big, big men in Europe. They have no faith . . . our leaders also. The Munshi, he did not believe in the next life. Dr. Patel: There is research in parapsychology in certain municipality of India, they have proved that there is rebirth. *Prabhupāda: That they may do, a very great service, but we know it without going to through psychological process. We believe Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), bās , finished. What is the use of going to the psychology and . . .? Dr. Patel: But those . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, those who are fools, they may waste their time in that way. (laughter) But we are not so fool. Dr. Patel: They are fools to not to think that they'll become . . . *Prabhupāda: They are rascal fools because they do not take Kṛṣṇa's word. Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Why should we bother? Our mission is simply to propagate Kṛṣṇa's instructions. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't manufacture anything. So-called yoga , so-called meditation, so-called this and . . . we don't care for all this nonsense. Our only business is how to implement the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, the rascals may understand and be happy. That is our mission. We haven't got to manufacture anything. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bās . You simply carry the message of Kṛṣṇa and try to deliver it to anyone you meet. This is our . . . we haven't got to manufacture anything. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Take it. No interpretation. Don't spoil the whole thing. Interpretation means spoiling. Whole thing spoiled. Dr. Patel: Each man understands according to his own level of understanding. Prabhupāda: No. Suppose, just like you are medical man, you are giving somebody medicine, you are giving the direction. If he wants to be cured, he must take your direction. Not that somebody comes, "No, no, you can take it this way, you can do this." That is nonsense. That is nonsense. This nonsense we want to stop. Kṛṣṇa is giving the instruction, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12), the Supreme Personality of Godhead. What business you have got to poke your nose and give interpretation? Are you bigger than Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa left it for you? This nonsense going on. Big, big svāmīs , big, big yogīs , big, big politicians, simply misinterpreting, he's spoiling his own life and he's spoiling others. Bās . This is going on. Very serious condition. Dr. Patel: You are not going to go down now? Prabhupāda: No. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to go on the terrace, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: If I like, I can . . . Dr. Patel: Abhi upar chalne ka muskil hota hai. (Now it is difficult to walk up.) Prabhupāda: Chalne ka nahi muskil hota hai . . . (It is not difficult to walk . . .) (indistinct) . . . why I have taken so much trouble? Dr. Patel: They are already traced out. So we come here. *Prabhupāda: No, you come and preach. The country is going to hell, the human society is going to hell for misguidance. These rascal leaders, they're going to hell themselves and they're leading others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). These fools and rascals are leading, they are going to hell, and they are taking the followers to the hell. This is going on. Stop this. At least in India. Save. That is real para-upakāra . That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. *Para*-upakāra . Our India is not meant for exploiting others. Doing good to others, that is India's mission. Our teachers, our ācāryas , do not teach us, "Go and exploit others and bring money"—British Empire. This is not India. Dr. Patel: Even Jesus never taught that. These are the wrong followers. Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ is different thing than that. I mean to say generally, generally the people, they want to exploit others. Dr. Patel: It is the greed of the human being. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but the mission should be, human being should be meant for doing good to others. Para*-upakāra . That para-upakāra spirit is gone on account of losing our own culture. Otherwise, India's culture is para-upakāra . India was open, "Come everyone, learn." Lord Jesus Christ also came here. All the Chinese, learned scholars, they used to come. The history is there. And India was open. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam . This is Indian culture. Even the enemy comes, "Yes, please come, you stay." But later on, they took advantage, "Oh, they are very liberal. Enter there." And still we are liberal, "Please come here, stay here and take prasādam free, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Open to everyone. I shall manage anyway. I shall travel, still I shall lay down my life and bring money. "Come here, stay." Still we are liberal. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). First of all, make your life successful by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then do good to others. *Yesterday, I think, in Tehran, one boy came. He proposed that is it not good to help others? I immediately challenged, "What you have got you can help? What is your asset?" You cannot help. It is simply bogus proposition. If you can help, you can simply help by spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "Sir, I have come to you." "Why?" "To request you that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious." "How?" Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ , "Always think of Me, just become My devotee, offer little obeisances." Anyone can do. A child can do. You cannot do? What is the difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Is there any difficulty? You haven't got to practice any yoga process, pressing your nose or keeping your head or this or that. No. Nothing. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68): "Without any doubt you are coming back to Me." And that is the highest perfection, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). There is no difficulty in preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no difficulty to accept it. And the result is the supreme. Dr. Patel: These are the people who have no faith. Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to canvass. They have no faith, I know that. Then why there is necessity of preaching all over the world? They have no faith, it is a fact. And you have to create faith. That is preaching. Padayor nipatya. That Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī: This is preaching. Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, what is that? Kāku-śataṁ padayor nipatya , kāku-śatam kṛtvā, śatam , "I fall down on your feet, and I am flattering you with folded hands." "Why? Why? What do you want to say?" "Yes, I have to say something." "What is that? Say it! Why you are becoming so humble?" "Yes, I have to say." "What? Say it!" He sādhavaḥ , "You are a very nice sādhu . But you forget all nonsense." Dr. Patel: That's kāku-śatam. *Prabhupāda: He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya , "Whatever nonsense you have learned, forget." Then what to do? Kāku-śataṁ bravīmi sakalam eva vihāya dūrād caitanya*-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam . "You just become devotee of Lord Caitanya. I am flattering you, I am falling down on your feet"—this is preaching. And what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . .? Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). And if you do that, then what is the result? Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). If one is doing like that, Kṛṣṇa immediately recognizes, "Oh, you are the best friend of Mine." So if you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, then what you want more? You are undergoing so much austerities and . . . to be recognized by God. And God says that "Immediately I recognize you." Whom? One who is doing this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). Immediately. You may be a fool, you may be rascal, you may be illiterate. But if you do this, immediately Kṛṣṇa recognizes. Kṛṣṇa never said that unless one is a big grammarian, big scientist, big politician, big engineer, big doctor, then I recognize. No. Simply one who does this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam . What is that paramaṁ guhyam? Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66): "Give up all nonsense. Surrender to Me." This is paramaṁ guhyam . And they are simply manufacturing nonsense. *So the time is very bad, but nature's law is very strict. We may defy it, "There is no God, there is no next birth, there is no nothing." We may say like that, but when death will come, you cannot say anything. Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). Bās , all your talkings, all your intelligence taken away. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Immediately transferred to another body. Daiva-netreṇa. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). "No, no, I am Prime Minister!" "No, you must become a dog." (laughter) Immediately. How can you protest? You cannot protest. You have acted like dog; *just become a dog. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya. Just like your medical science: you have infected the disease, you must suffer it. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ. Guṇa-saṅgaḥ . There's infection. Dr. Patel: Only in nirguṇa , a man can become nirguṇa by . . . Prabhupāda: Eh, don't talk of nirguṇa . First of all (laughter) become a dog. Dr. Patel: Because the only thing that can bring nirguṇa , then you may stop from getting a dog, if you do the bhakti . That is what I mean. Prabhupāda: Nirguṇa means bhakti . Nirguṇa means bhakti . Sa guṇān samatītyaitān (BG 14.26). That is nirguṇa . When you are untouched by the three guṇas , then you are nirguṇa . That is not very easy job. Dr. Patel: Very difficult. Prabhupāda: That is not easy. *Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati (BG 18.54). Nirguṇa is not so easy thing. This is nirguṇa . Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66). This is nirguṇa . Otherwise, everything sa guṇān , everything sa guṇān . Only fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, nirguṇa. This is . . . so . . . Humara desh me Bhagavad-gītā hai ispar instructions hai, ise cchor chaar karte hai. (There is Bhagavad-gītā in our country. The instructions are all there but they are giving up everything.) They are talking, "Yes, you take Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa." They say it. And they are doing that. Dr. Patel: Who? *Prabhupāda: Anyone. Take Mahatma Gandhi. He was so great student of Bhagavad*-gītā . Did he preach kṛṣṇa-bhakti? Bhagavad-gītā minus Kṛṣṇa, this is going on. Yes. Kaṁsa. Kill Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. What is the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? And everyone is preaching like that. Very worse condition of the world, godlessness, and they'll suffer, there is no doubt. Prakṛti is very strong. You can do whatever you like, but kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya , that will act. You may be very proud of your so-called prestigious position, but the kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya . . . puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi . . . (BG 13.22). Find out. *Guest: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . *Prabhupāda: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . He has to. He has to. Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān . So we are now put into the material prakṛti , and prakṛti-jān guṇān , we have to accept another body. This is the rascaldom. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Prasādam , you have got? (devotees offer obeisances) What is the report? Yaśomatīnandana: We are publishing monthly magazine every month now. One is coming out in a few days for Janmāṣṭamī. And we have changed new house, very good house . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is the rent? Yaśomatīnandana: Land also . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, rent. Yaśomatīnandana: Rent is thousand rupees. One thousand rupees, plus tax for government. Prabhupāda: Plus twelve hundred? Yaśomatīnandana: No, plus two hundred tax. They are Life Members from Ahmedabad. They came to see Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. So give them place to stay. So . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) Prabhupāda: That's all. Devotee: Thank you. *Prabhupāda: So mind, his business is to think something. But ordinarily the thinking is we accept something and reject something. Or accept the same thing and again reject the same thing. This business is going on. But if you think of question, there is no question of rejecting. Simply accepting. Then it is fixed up. Other things you accept and reject. Something we accept as "Oh, it is very good." Again, "No, no, it is not good." Accepting. Childish. Child is playing, one type of playing, "No, no, another one." That is material. And when you fix up—no rejection, simply accept it—that is Kṛṣṇa . . . so if you think of Kṛṣṇa . . . just like here is temple. If you come and, as other devotees are doing, if you do, if you attend maṅgala-ārati , if you attend bhoga-ārati , always see, then offer obeisances, then naturally you will think of Kṛṣṇa always. Then as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become purified. Just like if you touch with fire you remain always warm. Similarly, man*-manā , if you always think of Kṛṣṇa, you gradually become fully Kṛṣṇa-ized, Kṛṣṇa's devotee, Kṛṣṇa's servant. That is perfection. There is no difficulty. People will not do that. That is the difficulty. "Why shall I think of Kṛṣṇa? I shall think of this, I shall think of that." This is the difficulty. Otherwise not difficulty. You have to think something, think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. Guest: Ye sanskar se hi nahi hota hai. (Does this not come with cultural values.) *Prabhupada: Sanskar nahi ye hamara zid hai nahi karte, ye badmashi. (Not cultural values, this is our obstinacy, this is foolishness.) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ ( BG 7.15). Duṣkṛtinaḥ . Badmash, rascal, karega. Jaise child hota hai, koi baat sunega hi nahi, itna accha baat hai, nahi sunega, badmash hai, usko joota se theek karna hai, maya joota se theek karna hai, koi mushkil nahi hai, kahega nahi to mar do, joota se theek karo. (Rascal, he will do it. Just like a child, he does not listen to anyone. Such a fact, he will not listen, he is foolish rascal. He has to be beaten with the shoes to make him understand, illusion can be driven away by beating him with shoes. It is not very difficult.) Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Joota khate*-khate phir theek ho jayega. (Beating with shoes by māyā , that's all.) Kaam bhi hai, maya ki kaam hi hai. (If he is stubborn and refuses then beat him with shoes. By being hit with shoes a number of times, he will understand. This is the work of illusion.) (someone enters) Oh, when you have come? Woman: This morning. Prabhupāda: I was thinking of you. Woman: Oh, yes? Prabhupāda: So did you go to Bangkok? Woman: No, I'm going very soon. Prabhupāda: Maar khane me hi hai, wo bolta hai nahi . . . (It is in the beating, he refuses . . .) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Jab tak criminal rahega pitega police se khoob aur udhar badmashi chod dega police se bachne ke liye. (As long as he is a criminal, he will be beaten by the police and if he transforms to escape the police.) " mam eva parapadyante mayam etam taranti te ", pehle to police se mar khao. (first you are beaten by the police.) Guest: Mayavadi to ye . . . me zyada tha. Idhar zyada hai ki udhar? Indian side me ki west me? (The impersonalists . . . was more. Is it more here in India or there? On the Indian side or the western?) *Prabhupada: Hum to Indian ya wo sub jante nahin. sides nahi kahin bhi hoye. Indian Māyāvādīs are more dangerous. Udhar Māyāvādī kuch nahi hai, sab materialist hain. yehi to sub india ko kharab kar diya hai. (I don't know, Indian or others, there are no sides, wherever they are. There are no impersonalists, only materialists. They only have spoiled the name of India.) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). Anyone who is influenced by Māyāvādī, he's doomed. Indian man: He's doomed. Prabhupāda: He's finished. No more spiritual knowledge. He's doomed. Indian man: How far the study of the scriptures helps us in being Kṛṣṇa conscious? *Prabhupāda: You read Bhagavad*-gītā . That is the essence of all scriptures. And follow it. It is, from the very beginning to the end, it is simply helping you. You haven't got to read many literatures. Just like these American, European boys, they are with me for the last, utmost seven, eight years. Otherwise, three years, four years. So how are they becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious? It is not at all difficult. They are accepting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and becoming perfect. But in India, "Why shall I worship Kṛṣṇa? I have got this, I have got that." He'll bring thousands of Kṛṣṇa competitors, and he'll himself, he has become Kṛṣṇa, "I am God." You see? He's so shameless that he says that, "I am God." God is so cheap. He's shameless. He has no shame even, how he says that he is God? Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . So-called jñānī means māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . Indian man: Māyāvādī? *Prabhupāda: Māyayā apahṛta*-jñāna . Māyā . Maya uska gyan cheen liya aur wo samajhta hai hum bada gyani hai. Hai to wo moorkh No 1 aur wo samajhta hai hum gyani. Uska naam hai 'maya apahṛta-jñāna' apahrta mane cheen liya, wo mayavadi. (Illusion has taken away his knowledge and he is thinking that he is very intelligent, actually he is fool No. 1 and he understands that he is highly intelligent. His name is " māyayāpahṛta-jñāna " apahrta means taken away, he is an impersonalist. Who is very very much under the influence of māyā , he is Māyāvādī.) Unless he is too much under the influence of māyā , how can he say that, "I am God"? Which is impossible? Samjh lijiye koi baccha bol diya mai raja, ab bol dene se ho gaya raja. Itna saral se raja ho gaya. Rajya chahiye, praja chahiye, ministers chahiye. (Just think some child simply said that I am king, will he become king just by saying, is it so easy to become king, there should be a kingdom, there should be subjects, there should be ministers.) So many things which make one rāja , and if you simply imagine, "I am rāja ," so how much rascal he is, just see. Mūḍha . Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Isliye Chaitanya Mahaprabhu kehte hai, (That is why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,) Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). If one follow the Māyāvādīs and thinks that, "I am God," then he is finished. His future is finished. Guest: Wo to gyan cheen liya isse wo is stage par aagaya. (Because his knowledge was taken away, so he has come to this stage.) *Prabhupada: . . . agyan ho gaya pagal nahi. Jaise aadmi koi pagal ho jaye to phir uska diagnosis hoga. jivan*-mrtya, pran rehte hue bhi mrtyu. Ek pagal wo hai aur ek pagal karmi. "Nunam pravatta kurute vikarma" karmi zyada hai. Ek factory ko samajhta hai hum khoob parishram karke khoob rapay-paisa kama ke sukhi ho jayenge. Ye ek pagal hai. Aur ek pagal hai humne parishram to bahut kiya par sukhi to nahi ho saka. Ab bhagavan . . . (. . . he has become ignorant not mad. Like if some person becomes mad then he is diagnosed. Life and death, even though alive, is as good as dead. He is mad and another mad man is a fruitive worker, more number of fruitive workers. He considers that he will work very hard, earn a lot of money and be happy. This is one mad man and another mad man. I worked hard but could not become happy. Now God . . .) Guest: Wo kya sochta hai? (What does he think?) *Prabhupada: To sochta hai ye jhoot hai, jagat mithya hai uske peeche nahi jana chahiye, hum bhagavan hain. Uske baad ye satya, bhagvan bola hai satya. Ye sab chal raha hai, isliye bhagvan kehta hai "sarva dharman parityajya" kuch vyakti to ye samajh lete hain ki hum karmi hokarke, parishram karke, rupaiya*-paisa kamake, sarvatah raja ho karke, ye sab hkarke hum sukhi honge. Samajhta nahi ki isme sukh nahi. Ye ek pagal, ye ek pagal. (So he thinks that this is false, the world is an illusion; we must not run behind it. I am God, after this truth, God has revealed the truth. This is going on. That is why God says: " sarva dharman parityajya ". Some people think that by being a fruitive worker, working hard, earning lots of money, becoming a king, doing all this I will become happy but he does not understand that this is not happiness. So this is one mad man and that is another mad man.) Aur real sanity is jo bhagvan ka das ho jaye. bus. Wo din kab ayega jab hum sochenge ki hamara prabhu hai wo hamara sar chipakar raksha karta hai. is tarah se main . . . hounga. Jaise koi vyakti nisahay aur ek admi janta hai ki hamara pitaji hai, hamara matron hai, wo hamara raksha karega. Aiye baithiye. (And real sanity is to become the servant of God, that's all. When will that day come when I will understand that I have a Lord, He will give shelter and protect me. This way I will become . . . like a person who is helpless and another person knows that I have a father. I have a matron, they will protect me. Come, sit. That is very nice that, "I have got a protector.") Indian man: Ek sanath. Mane ek nath hai, sanath. Anath and sanath. (One can be fearless, free. One with a protector, means one Lord, protector and orphan.) *Prabhupāda: Aur jo . . . wo anath hai. Jaise anth children hota hai bechare rasta me ghoomta phirta hai. Wo sanath jo janta hai ki hamare pitaji. Ye Natural hai (And one who has no one is an orphan. Like the orphans who roam around in the streets. That is one who knows that I have a father. Oh, yes. He's fearless. This is natural.) I have seen in my practical life. Long ago I was going in a tram car. So my son, he was two years old. The conductor said "Paisa lao, to bolta "paisa nahi." To conductor bolta hai utar jaiye. "Hah! Hamara pitājī he!" hum kaise utar jaye. Ye sanath. (The conductor said: "Give money" so he said: "I don't have money." The conductor said: "Then get down" He said: "Why, my father is there, how can I get down?" This is protected. He's confident, "My father is there. How can you get me down?" This is natural.) Sanātha*-jīvitam. Kadāham aikāntika-nitya-kiṅkaraḥ praharṣayiṣyāmi . That is ānanda, that "I have no fear. I have got my father here. I have got my protector." Sanātha-jīvitam. That is a fact. Aur ek anath jeev, koi tumko keh . . . ki parishram karo aur maro. Ye sab anath hai. (And one orphan, someone tells him . . . that work hard and dies. All these are orphans.) *Anath hone se asanti, kya hoga. Pita nahi hai hamara kya galti. Jo bolenge wo hum kar lenge. kya sharm, jo hukm karega kar lenge. Aur bhukti mukti apne account se kam karenge, apna plan banayenge. Jo karmi hai wo apna plan bana raha hai, itna rupaya kama lenge,to wo usi koshish me asanth aur mukti kami jo bhagvan ho jaye wo bhi asanth hai. Aur siddhi*-yogi wo sab yog-siddhi chahte hain jaise pani ke upar chal jate hain, dikhane ke liye sona lana phir magic bante-banate . . . usme to karigari lagta hai aap ek jewellery dikha ke thug le to uske liye parishram karna padega. Aur bhakt ko kuch karna nahi hai, jo bhagvan bol denge usko kar denge. Uska apna account se kuch karna nahi, na to magic dikhana hai, nahi to swarg-lok me jana hai, nahi to bhagavan hona hai, na to jail me jana hai, na to aur kuch karna hai. Caitanya-caritamrita me hai 'bhukti-mukti siddhi kali sakali asat'. Ye jitna hai sab asat. wo krishna bhakti me kuch-na-kuch chahiye, bhagavan se ek hone hai na to uska magic dikhana hai, na to swarg-lok jana hai, usme kya hai. 'narayan para sakti na kutascan bibhyati' jo Narayan ke hukm ka palan karta hai usko kuch karna hi nahi hai.' . . . bhagavan bolta hai tum nark me jayega theek hai jayega, bhagavan to humko hukm karega. (If one is an orphan then no peace, what will happen, if father is not there what is my fault? What they say I will do, what shame, what they say I will do. And from the account of bhukti-mukti we will work, we will plan. Those who are fruitive workers, they are making plans, we will make so much money, they are busy in that effort. Those workers, materialists who try to become God are always disturbed. And the yogis are busy with their jugglery like walking on the water, on the fire, producing gold, in doing this . . . but skill is required in this. If they produce gold and show you that requires effort. But the devotees don't have to do anything. They don't have to show magic, they don't have to become God, they don't have to go to heaven, they don't have to go to the police station, nor do they have to do anything. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is stated " bhukti-mukti siddhi kali sakali asat ". Whatever there is in this material world is false, illusion. In Kṛṣṇa devotion something is required, either merge into effulgence, or show magic, or go to heaven, what is there in this. " Narayana para sakti na kutascan bibhyati ". One who follows the instructions of Narayana he does not have to do anything. If God says you must go to hell then accept, God gives orders.) Humko to bhagavan ka hukm manana hai. To aap agar nark me hukm manana to bhagvan ko jana padega. To hamare saath bhagavan hai to nark kya hai. jaise Narad Muni jate hain vaikunth me. To Narad prachar karne ko gaya to nark me thode hi gaya. (We have to just follow God's orders. So if you have to go to hell to obey His orders then He will be there and if He is there then it is not hell. Just like how Narada Muni goes to the heavenly planet. He does not go to hell to preach.) Jaya . (end) Prabhupāda: That's all. Devotee: Thank you. *Prabhupāda: So mind, his business is to think something. But ordinarily the thinking is we accept something and reject something. Or accept the same thing and again reject the same thing. This business is going on. But if you think of question, there is no question of rejecting. Simply accepting. Then it is fixed up. Other things you accept and reject. Something we accept as "Oh, it is very good." Again, "No, no, it is not good." Accepting. Childish. Child is playing, one type of playing, "No, no, another one." That is material. And when you fix up—no rejection, simply accept it—that is Kṛṣṇa . . . so if you think of Kṛṣṇa . . . just like here is temple. If you come and, as other devotees are doing, if you do, if you attend maṅgala-ārati , if you attend bhoga-ārati , always see, then offer obeisances, then naturally you will think of Kṛṣṇa always. Then as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become purified. Just like if you touch with fire you remain always warm. Similarly, man*-manā , if you always think of Kṛṣṇa, you gradually become fully Kṛṣṇa-ized, Kṛṣṇa's devotee, Kṛṣṇa's servant. That is perfection. There is no difficulty. People will not do that. That is the difficulty. "Why shall I think of Kṛṣṇa? I shall think of this, I shall think of that." This is the difficulty. Otherwise not difficulty. You have to think something, think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. Guest: Ye sanskar se hi nahi hota hai. (Does this not come with cultural values.) *Prabhupada: Sanskar nahi ye hamara zid hai nahi karte, ye badmashi. (Not cultural values, this is our obstinacy, this is foolishness.) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ ( BG 7.15). Duṣkṛtinaḥ . Badmash, rascal, karega. Jaise child hota hai, koi baat sunega hi nahi, itna accha baat hai, nahi sunega, badmash hai, usko joota se theek karna hai, maya joota se theek karna hai, koi mushkil nahi hai, kahega nahi to mar do, joota se theek karo. (Rascal, he will do it. Just like a child, he does not listen to anyone. Such a fact, he will not listen, he is foolish rascal. He has to be beaten with the shoes to make him understand, illusion can be driven away by beating him with shoes. It is not very difficult.) Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Joota khate*-khate phir theek ho jayega. (Beating with shoes by māyā , that's all.) Kaam bhi hai, maya ki kaam hi hai. (If he is stubborn and refuses then beat him with shoes. By being hit with shoes a number of times, he will understand. This is the work of illusion.) (someone enters) Oh, when you have come? Woman: This morning. Prabhupāda: I was thinking of you. Woman: Oh, yes? Prabhupāda: So did you go to Bangkok? Woman: No, I'm going very soon. Prabhupāda: Maar khane me hi hai, wo bolta hai nahi . . . (It is in the beating, he refuses . . .) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Jab tak criminal rahega pitega police se khoob aur udhar badmashi chod dega police se bachne ke liye. (As long as he is a criminal, he will be beaten by the police and if he transforms to escape the police.) " mam eva parapadyante mayam etam taranti te ", pehle to police se mar khao. (first you are beaten by the police.) Guest: Mayavadi to ye . . . me zyada tha. Idhar zyada hai ki udhar? Indian side me ki west me? (The impersonalists . . . was more. Is it more here in India or there? On the Indian side or the western?) *Prabhupada: Hum to Indian ya wo sub jante nahin. sides nahi kahin bhi hoye. Indian Māyāvādīs are more dangerous. Udhar Māyāvādī kuch nahi hai, sab materialist hain. yehi to sub india ko kharab kar diya hai. (I don't know, Indian or others, there are no sides, wherever they are. There are no impersonalists, only materialists. They only have spoiled the name of India.) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). Anyone who is influenced by Māyāvādī, he's doomed. Indian man: He's doomed. Prabhupāda: He's finished. No more spiritual knowledge. He's doomed. Indian man: How far the study of the scriptures helps us in being Kṛṣṇa conscious? *Prabhupāda: You read Bhagavad*-gītā . That is the essence of all scriptures. And follow it. It is, from the very beginning to the end, it is simply helping you. You haven't got to read many literatures. Just like these American, European boys, they are with me for the last, utmost seven, eight years. Otherwise, three years, four years. So how are they becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious? It is not at all difficult. They are accepting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and becoming perfect. But in India, "Why shall I worship Kṛṣṇa? I have got this, I have got that." He'll bring thousands of Kṛṣṇa competitors, and he'll himself, he has become Kṛṣṇa, "I am God." You see? He's so shameless that he says that, "I am God." God is so cheap. He's shameless. He has no shame even, how he says that he is God? Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . So-called jñānī means māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . Indian man: Māyāvādī? *Prabhupāda: Māyayā apahṛta*-jñāna . Māyā . Maya uska gyan cheen liya aur wo samajhta hai hum bada gyani hai. Hai to wo moorkh No 1 aur wo samajhta hai hum gyani. Uska naam hai 'maya apahṛta-jñāna' apahrta mane cheen liya, wo mayavadi. (Illusion has taken away his knowledge and he is thinking that he is very intelligent, actually he is fool No. 1 and he understands that he is highly intelligent. His name is " māyayāpahṛta-jñāna " apahrta means taken away, he is an impersonalist. Who is very very much under the influence of māyā , he is Māyāvādī.) Unless he is too much under the influence of māyā , how can he say that, "I am God"? Which is impossible? Samjh lijiye koi baccha bol diya mai raja, ab bol dene se ho gaya raja. Itna saral se raja ho gaya. Rajya chahiye, praja chahiye, ministers chahiye. (Just think some child simply said that I am king, will he become king just by saying, is it so easy to become king, there should be a kingdom, there should be subjects, there should be ministers.) So many things which make one rāja , and if you simply imagine, "I am rāja ," so how much rascal he is, just see. Mūḍha . Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Isliye Chaitanya Mahaprabhu kehte hai, (That is why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,) Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). If one follow the Māyāvādīs and thinks that, "I am God," then he is finished. His future is finished. Guest: Wo to gyan cheen liya isse wo is stage par aagaya. (Because his knowledge was taken away, so he has come to this stage.) *Prabhupada: . . . agyan ho gaya pagal nahi. Jaise aadmi koi pagal ho jaye to phir uska diagnosis hoga. jivan*-mrtya, pran rehte hue bhi mrtyu. Ek pagal wo hai aur ek pagal karmi. "Nunam pravatta kurute vikarma" karmi zyada hai. Ek factory ko samajhta hai hum khoob parishram karke khoob rapay-paisa kama ke sukhi ho jayenge. Ye ek pagal hai. Aur ek pagal hai humne parishram to bahut kiya par sukhi to nahi ho saka. Ab bhagavan . . . (. . . he has become ignorant not mad. Like if some person becomes mad then he is diagnosed. Life and death, even though alive, is as good as dead. He is mad and another mad man is a fruitive worker, more number of fruitive workers. He considers that he will work very hard, earn a lot of money and be happy. This is one mad man and another mad man. I worked hard but could not become happy. Now God . . .) Guest: Wo kya sochta hai? (What does he think?) *Prabhupada: To sochta hai ye jhoot hai, jagat mithya hai uske peeche nahi jana chahiye, hum bhagavan hain. Uske baad ye satya, bhagvan bola hai satya. Ye sab chal raha hai, isliye bhagvan kehta hai "sarva dharman parityajya" kuch vyakti to ye samajh lete hain ki hum karmi hokarke, parishram karke, rupaiya*-paisa kamake, sarvatah raja ho karke, ye sab hkarke hum sukhi honge. Samajhta nahi ki isme sukh nahi. Ye ek pagal, ye ek pagal. (So he thinks that this is false, the world is an illusion; we must not run behind it. I am God, after this truth, God has revealed the truth. This is going on. That is why God says: " sarva dharman parityajya ". Some people think that by being a fruitive worker, working hard, earning lots of money, becoming a king, doing all this I will become happy but he does not understand that this is not happiness. So this is one mad man and that is another mad man.) Aur real sanity is jo bhagvan ka das ho jaye. bus. Wo din kab ayega jab hum sochenge ki hamara prabhu hai wo hamara sar chipakar raksha karta hai. is tarah se main . . . hounga. Jaise koi vyakti nisahay aur ek admi janta hai ki hamara pitaji hai, hamara matron hai, wo hamara raksha karega. Aiye baithiye. (And real sanity is to become the servant of God, that's all. When will that day come when I will understand that I have a Lord, He will give shelter and protect me. This way I will become . . . like a person who is helpless and another person knows that I have a father. I have a matron, they will protect me. Come, sit. That is very nice that, "I have got a protector.") Indian man: Ek sanath. Mane ek nath hai, sanath. Anath and sanath. (One can be fearless, free. One with a protector, means one Lord, protector and orphan.) *Prabhupāda: Aur jo . . . wo anath hai. Jaise anth children hota hai bechare rasta me ghoomta phirta hai. Wo sanath jo janta hai ki hamare pitaji. Ye Natural hai (And one who has no one is an orphan. Like the orphans who roam around in the streets. That is one who knows that I have a father. Oh, yes. He's fearless. This is natural.) I have seen in my practical life. Long ago I was going in a tram car. So my son, he was two years old. The conductor said "Paisa lao, to bolta "paisa nahi." To conductor bolta hai utar jaiye. "Hah! Hamara pitājī he!" hum kaise utar jaye. Ye sanath. (The conductor said: "Give money" so he said: "I don't have money." The conductor said: "Then get down" He said: "Why, my father is there, how can I get down?" This is protected. He's confident, "My father is there. How can you get me down?" This is natural.) Sanātha*-jīvitam. Kadāham aikāntika-nitya-kiṅkaraḥ praharṣayiṣyāmi . That is ānanda, that "I have no fear. I have got my father here. I have got my protector." Sanātha-jīvitam. That is a fact. Aur ek anath jeev, koi tumko keh . . . ki parishram karo aur maro. Ye sab anath hai. (And one orphan, someone tells him . . . that work hard and dies. All these are orphans.) *Anath hone se asanti, kya hoga. Pita nahi hai hamara kya galti. Jo bolenge wo hum kar lenge. kya sharm, jo hukm karega kar lenge. Aur bhukti mukti apne account se kam karenge, apna plan banayenge. Jo karmi hai wo apna plan bana raha hai, itna rupaya kama lenge,to wo usi koshish me asanth aur mukti kami jo bhagvan ho jaye wo bhi asanth hai. Aur siddhi*-yogi wo sab yog-siddhi chahte hain jaise pani ke upar chal jate hain, dikhane ke liye sona lana phir magic bante-banate . . . usme to karigari lagta hai aap ek jewellery dikha ke thug le to uske liye parishram karna padega. Aur bhakt ko kuch karna nahi hai, jo bhagvan bol denge usko kar denge. Uska apna account se kuch karna nahi, na to magic dikhana hai, nahi to swarg-lok me jana hai, nahi to bhagavan hona hai, na to jail me jana hai, na to aur kuch karna hai. Caitanya-caritamrita me hai 'bhukti-mukti siddhi kali sakali asat'. Ye jitna hai sab asat. wo krishna bhakti me kuch-na-kuch chahiye, bhagavan se ek hone hai na to uska magic dikhana hai, na to swarg-lok jana hai, usme kya hai. 'narayan para sakti na kutascan bibhyati' jo Narayan ke hukm ka palan karta hai usko kuch karna hi nahi hai.' . . . bhagavan bolta hai tum nark me jayega theek hai jayega, bhagavan to humko hukm karega. (If one is an orphan then no peace, what will happen, if father is not there what is my fault? What they say I will do, what shame, what they say I will do. And from the account of bhukti-mukti we will work, we will plan. Those who are fruitive workers, they are making plans, we will make so much money, they are busy in that effort. Those workers, materialists who try to become God are always disturbed. And the yogis are busy with their jugglery like walking on the water, on the fire, producing gold, in doing this . . . but skill is required in this. If they produce gold and show you that requires effort. But the devotees don't have to do anything. They don't have to show magic, they don't have to become God, they don't have to go to heaven, they don't have to go to the police station, nor do they have to do anything. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is stated " bhukti-mukti siddhi kali sakali asat ". Whatever there is in this material world is false, illusion. In Kṛṣṇa devotion something is required, either merge into effulgence, or show magic, or go to heaven, what is there in this. " Narayana para sakti na kutascan bibhyati ". One who follows the instructions of Narayana he does not have to do anything. If God says you must go to hell then accept, God gives orders.) Humko to bhagavan ka hukm manana hai. To aap agar nark me hukm manana to bhagvan ko jana padega. To hamare saath bhagavan hai to nark kya hai. jaise Narad Muni jate hain vaikunth me. To Narad prachar karne ko gaya to nark me thode hi gaya. (We have to just follow God's orders. So if you have to go to hell to obey His orders then He will be there and if He is there then it is not hell. Just like how Narada Muni goes to the heavenly planet. He does not go to hell to preach.) Jaya . (end) Prabhupāda: Vairāgya is there. Dr. Patel: Sir, shall I say, vairāgyaṁ jñeyam . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt ( SB 11.2.42). This is vairāgya . So unless he has attained this stage, virakti , then where is bhakti ? Bhakti is so powerful that it brings automatically vairāgya . But if there is no vairāgya , where is bhakti ? Understand it now? Yes. It does not depend that you have to practice vairāgya separately. But if you are actually bhakta , then vairāgya is there. If there is no vairāgya , there is no bhakti; *it is sahajiyā*-bhāva. *Yaśomatīnandana: In other words, vairāgya is a by*-product of bhakti . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated: *Vairāgya is to be practiced, but bhakti is so strong, kecit kevalayā bhaktyā , simply by bhakti, vāsudeva*-parāyaṇa. Vairāgya immediately comes. Aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ . If actually one is pure bhakta , then everything material, finished. That is real bhakta . Now I have got some bhakti and some material desire also, that is not bhakti . That is markaṭa-vairāgya. That does not mean that I shall stop bhakti . No. You take bhakti to the principle, to the regulative principle, then automatically vairāgya will come. The vairāgya is not coming, that means you have not been a pure bhakta . That is adulteration. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). That is bhakti . And because there is not anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167), it is adulterated. *Dr. Patel: Bhakti*-avyabhicāriṇī . *Prabhupāda: Avyabhicāriṇī , yes. Māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena yah sevate. Avyabhicāreṇa. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He is above three guṇas . So if I am still under the modes of material nature, that means I'm not in avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti . This is the warning. Therefore Lord Buddha rejected Vedas . Dr. Patel: Because, sir, in the name of Veda people were misbehaving. Prabhupāda: *Vedas* , when Lord Buddha wanted stop animal killing, these rascals came with *Vedas* : " *Vedas* there is sacrifice, there is animal killing." So he thought that these rascals will create botheration. By bringing *Vedas* , there is . . . he said: "I don't care for it." Veda māniyā . *Similarly, these rascals are giving evidence of Rūpa Gosvāmī's advice that, "Here is Rādhā*-kuṇḍa mentioned." But whether you have followed other things. Yaśomatīnandana: Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha*-vegaṁ, pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. Etān vegān yo viṣa . . . you are manipulated by the udara-vegam, upastha-vegam . But first there is test: etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ (NOI 1). Then for him Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). He has got three dozen sevā-dāsī , and living in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. My Guru Mahārāja wanted to publish Govinda-līlāmṛta . He asked permission of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So first of all Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, "I'll tell you some day." And when he reminded, he said: "Yes, you can print one copy. If you are so much anxious to print it, print one copy. You'll read and you will see that you have printed. Not for distribution." So we are printing all these books for understanding properly. Not that "Here is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Let us go." Jump over like monkey. "Here is rāsa-līlā . Immediately . . ." *Acyutānanda: Even in Kṛṣṇa book, rāsa*-līlā should not be told in public. Prabhupāda: No, why? Kṛṣṇa book must be there. In the book must be there. Acyutānanda: But in public . . . *Prabhupāda: But you should go gradually. You should go gradually. You first of all understand Kṛṣṇa, then kṛṣṇa*-līlā. If you have not understood Kṛṣṇa, then you'll think Kṛṣṇa's rāsa-līlā is just like we mix with young women. And that becomes as polluted. Because they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Kṛṣṇa understanding so easy? If you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, how can you go to the Kṛṣṇa's confidential activities? Acyutānanda: Some of the devotees, they said that it is for liberated souls. So they said, "Well, we are all liberated." Prabhupāda: Yes. Liberated for going to hell. Devotee: In your Kṛṣṇa book, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've given such clear explanations along with the stories of Kṛṣṇa that it's very difficult to misinterpret them, because you use such clear explanation. Prabhupāda: No, you read all the books first of all. Then you'll be able to understand. Yaśomatīnandana: Even theoretical understanding that Kṛṣṇa is transcendental will not help unless one . . . Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa is giving . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa lifted the hill. Now how you can become equal with Kṛṣṇa? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about if some devotees, I know they want to come to Vṛndāvana . . . Prabhupāda: Every devotee, they must follow the rules and regulations, that's all. Devotee: And engage in practical service to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane āśā . Has he taken order from Guru Mahārāja that "I am going to jump over Rādhā-kuṇḍa"? Why does he go? Daily singing, guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete, āra nā kariha . Why should he desire like that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are some devotees who always want to . . . *Prabhupāda: They are not devotees. Rascals. Don't say "some devotees." Devotees will hear: guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane. *Acyutānanda: They also wear the Rādhā*-kuṇḍa māṭi, tilaka . *Prabhupāda: There is no harm, but they should understand what is Rādhā*-kuṇḍa and how to deal with Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī showed how to live in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau . He was circumambulating Rādhā-kuṇḍa, falling down, making a mark. That is Rādhā-kuṇḍa vāsī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Not only counted holy names, but offering obeisances so many hundred times in . . . (indistinct) . . . that is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. He, so much vairāgya he showed. He can take bath in the Rādhā-kuṇḍa. First of all, do this like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca yau. *Yaśomatīnandana: In other words, first one should understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then gradually the First Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , then ultimately Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Without that, simply taking Caitanya-caritāmṛta . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavad*-gītā is the entrance. Then Bhāgavata is graduate, and Caitanya-caritāmṛta . . . this is the step by step. But if one is sincere, everything becomes revealed to him. He does not commit mistake. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Some devotees, especially in Vṛndāvana, who will always try to run to Hardwar, Jagannātha Purī, always parikramā of holy places. Prabhupāda: It is good to go to holy places. Acyutānanda: They go independently. Yaśomatīnandana: Unauthorized. Acyutānanda: They go more to avoid service than to become purified. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But there's no harm if they just . . . *Prabhupāda: (coughing) You see you can become independent, nobody can check you. Everyone is independent. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). But one who wants to be regulated, he has to surrender. That is voluntary. Otherwise, everyone is free to do whatever he likes. And those who are surrendered souls, they will wait for the instruction of guru and do accordingly. That is the proper. Guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha. That is wanted. Otherwise, everyone can remain independent. All living beings are independent. Even if I say that you do not do it, you are independent, you can do it. Even Kṛṣṇa gives independence to Arjuna. Yathecchasi tathā kuru : "I have told you everything. Now you do whatever you like." So that depends on the candidate. Everyone is free to do anything, but if he's actually serious, then he has to do guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete āra nā kariha . This is . . . Acyutānanda: What prompts the soul to misuse his independence or improperly use? Prabhupāda: Because he has got little independence. Yathecchasi tathā , he has got this. Acyutānanda: Why do some misuse it and some never misuse it? Prabhupāda: That depends on him. If one is determined that, "I shall only act according to the advice of my Guru Mahārāja," then he's perfect. One has to submit like Arjuna said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). Otherwise he'll argue. *Devotee: Even nitya*-siddha has guru in the spiritual . . . *Yaśomatīnandana: Even the liberated soul, nitya*-siddha. *Prabhupāda: Liberated soul never says that, "I am liberated." As soon as he says "liberated," he's a rascal. A liberated soul will never say that "I am liberated." That is liberation. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is God— guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan (CC Adi 7.71): "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me fool number one, and he has chastised Me." He's God. This is the example. If one remains always a servant ever*-lastingly of guru , then he is liberated. And as soon as he thinks that he is liberated, he's a rascal. That is the teaching of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Guru more mūrkha dekhi . Caitanya Mahāprabhu is mūrkha ? Why He's posing Himself that mūrkha , "I am fool number one"? That means that is liberation. You must be ready always to be chastised by guru . Then he's liberated. And as soon as he thinks that, "I am beyond this chastisement. I am liberated," he's a rascal. Why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan ? This is sahajiyā-vāda. He is thinking, "Oh I have become liberated. I don't require any direction of my guru . I'm liberated." Then he's rascal. Why this Gauḍīya Maṭha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru . He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that, "This man should be the next ācārya ." But these people, just after his passing away, they began to fight, who shall be ācārya . That is the failure. They never thought, "Why Guru Mahārāja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be ācārya ?" They wanted to create artificially somebody ācārya , and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Mahārāja wanted to appoint somebody as ācārya , why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insisted on it. They declared some unfit person to become ācārya . Then another man came, then another ācārya , another ācārya . So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Mahārāja. That is perfection. And as soon as he learns the Guru Mahārāja is dead, "Now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and I become." Then he's finished. Yaśomatīnandana: They kept fighting, and when the real ācārya emerged they all became wonderstruck. They all became baffled. Now they all know in their hearts. They all know it. I can see. They all know that who is the real ācārya . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The real ācārya emerges by his own preaching? Devotee: Yes. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Prabhupāda: Vairāgya is there. Dr. Patel: Sir, shall I say, vairāgyaṁ jñeyam . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt ( SB 11.2.42). This is vairāgya . So unless he has attained this stage, virakti , then where is bhakti ? Bhakti is so powerful that it brings automatically vairāgya . But if there is no vairāgya , where is bhakti ? Understand it now? Yes. It does not depend that you have to practice vairāgya separately. But if you are actually bhakta , then vairāgya is there. If there is no vairāgya , there is no bhakti; *it is sahajiyā*-bhāva. *Yaśomatīnandana: In other words, vairāgya is a by*-product of bhakti . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated: *Vairāgya is to be practiced, but bhakti is so strong, kecit kevalayā bhaktyā , simply by bhakti, vāsudeva*-parāyaṇa. Vairāgya immediately comes. Aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ . If actually one is pure bhakta , then everything material, finished. That is real bhakta . Now I have got some bhakti and some material desire also, that is not bhakti . That is markaṭa-vairāgya. That does not mean that I shall stop bhakti . No. You take bhakti to the principle, to the regulative principle, then automatically vairāgya will come. The vairāgya is not coming, that means you have not been a pure bhakta . That is adulteration. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). That is bhakti . And because there is not anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167), it is adulterated. *Dr. Patel: Bhakti*-avyabhicāriṇī . *Prabhupāda: Avyabhicāriṇī , yes. Māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena yah sevate. Avyabhicāreṇa. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He is above three guṇas . So if I am still under the modes of material nature, that means I'm not in avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti . This is the warning. Therefore Lord Buddha rejected Vedas . Dr. Patel: Because, sir, in the name of Veda people were misbehaving. Prabhupāda: *Vedas* , when Lord Buddha wanted stop animal killing, these rascals came with *Vedas* : " *Vedas* there is sacrifice, there is animal killing." So he thought that these rascals will create botheration. By bringing *Vedas* , there is . . . he said: "I don't care for it." Veda māniyā . *Similarly, these rascals are giving evidence of Rūpa Gosvāmī's advice that, "Here is Rādhā*-kuṇḍa mentioned." But whether you have followed other things. Yaśomatīnandana: Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha*-vegaṁ, pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. Etān vegān yo viṣa . . . you are manipulated by the udara-vegam, upastha-vegam . But first there is test: etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ (NOI 1). Then for him Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). He has got three dozen sevā-dāsī , and living in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. My Guru Mahārāja wanted to publish Govinda-līlāmṛta . He asked permission of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So first of all Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, "I'll tell you some day." And when he reminded, he said: "Yes, you can print one copy. If you are so much anxious to print it, print one copy. You'll read and you will see that you have printed. Not for distribution." So we are printing all these books for understanding properly. Not that "Here is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Let us go." Jump over like monkey. "Here is rāsa-līlā . Immediately . . ." *Acyutānanda: Even in Kṛṣṇa book, rāsa*-līlā should not be told in public. Prabhupāda: No, why? Kṛṣṇa book must be there. In the book must be there. Acyutānanda: But in public . . . *Prabhupāda: But you should go gradually. You should go gradually. You first of all understand Kṛṣṇa, then kṛṣṇa*-līlā. If you have not understood Kṛṣṇa, then you'll think Kṛṣṇa's rāsa-līlā is just like we mix with young women. And that becomes as polluted. Because they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Kṛṣṇa understanding so easy? If you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, how can you go to the Kṛṣṇa's confidential activities? Acyutānanda: Some of the devotees, they said that it is for liberated souls. So they said, "Well, we are all liberated." Prabhupāda: Yes. Liberated for going to hell. Devotee: In your Kṛṣṇa book, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've given such clear explanations along with the stories of Kṛṣṇa that it's very difficult to misinterpret them, because you use such clear explanation. Prabhupāda: No, you read all the books first of all. Then you'll be able to understand. Yaśomatīnandana: Even theoretical understanding that Kṛṣṇa is transcendental will not help unless one . . . Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa is giving . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa lifted the hill. Now how you can become equal with Kṛṣṇa? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about if some devotees, I know they want to come to Vṛndāvana . . . Prabhupāda: Every devotee, they must follow the rules and regulations, that's all. Devotee: And engage in practical service to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane āśā . Has he taken order from Guru Mahārāja that "I am going to jump over Rādhā-kuṇḍa"? Why does he go? Daily singing, guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete, āra nā kariha . Why should he desire like that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are some devotees who always want to . . . *Prabhupāda: They are not devotees. Rascals. Don't say "some devotees." Devotees will hear: guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane. *Acyutānanda: They also wear the Rādhā*-kuṇḍa māṭi, tilaka . *Prabhupāda: There is no harm, but they should understand what is Rādhā*-kuṇḍa and how to deal with Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī showed how to live in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau . He was circumambulating Rādhā-kuṇḍa, falling down, making a mark. That is Rādhā-kuṇḍa vāsī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Not only counted holy names, but offering obeisances so many hundred times in . . . (indistinct) . . . that is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. He, so much vairāgya he showed. He can take bath in the Rādhā-kuṇḍa. First of all, do this like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca yau. *Yaśomatīnandana: In other words, first one should understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then gradually the First Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , then ultimately Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Without that, simply taking Caitanya-caritāmṛta . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavad*-gītā is the entrance. Then Bhāgavata is graduate, and Caitanya-caritāmṛta . . . this is the step by step. But if one is sincere, everything becomes revealed to him. He does not commit mistake. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Some devotees, especially in Vṛndāvana, who will always try to run to Hardwar, Jagannātha Purī, always parikramā of holy places. Prabhupāda: It is good to go to holy places. Acyutānanda: They go independently. Yaśomatīnandana: Unauthorized. Acyutānanda: They go more to avoid service than to become purified. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But there's no harm if they just . . . *Prabhupāda: (coughing) You see you can become independent, nobody can check you. Everyone is independent. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). But one who wants to be regulated, he has to surrender. That is voluntary. Otherwise, everyone is free to do whatever he likes. And those who are surrendered souls, they will wait for the instruction of guru and do accordingly. That is the proper. Guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha. That is wanted. Otherwise, everyone can remain independent. All living beings are independent. Even if I say that you do not do it, you are independent, you can do it. Even Kṛṣṇa gives independence to Arjuna. Yathecchasi tathā kuru : "I have told you everything. Now you do whatever you like." So that depends on the candidate. Everyone is free to do anything, but if he's actually serious, then he has to do guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete āra nā kariha . This is . . . Acyutānanda: What prompts the soul to misuse his independence or improperly use? Prabhupāda: Because he has got little independence. Yathecchasi tathā , he has got this. Acyutānanda: Why do some misuse it and some never misuse it? Prabhupāda: That depends on him. If one is determined that, "I shall only act according to the advice of my Guru Mahārāja," then he's perfect. One has to submit like Arjuna said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). Otherwise he'll argue. *Devotee: Even nitya*-siddha has guru in the spiritual . . . *Yaśomatīnandana: Even the liberated soul, nitya*-siddha. *Prabhupāda: Liberated soul never says that, "I am liberated." As soon as he says "liberated," he's a rascal. A liberated soul will never say that "I am liberated." That is liberation. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is God— guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan (CC Adi 7.71): "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me fool number one, and he has chastised Me." He's God. This is the example. If one remains always a servant ever*-lastingly of guru , then he is liberated. And as soon as he thinks that he is liberated, he's a rascal. That is the teaching of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Guru more mūrkha dekhi . Caitanya Mahāprabhu is mūrkha ? Why He's posing Himself that mūrkha , "I am fool number one"? That means that is liberation. You must be ready always to be chastised by guru . Then he's liberated. And as soon as he thinks that, "I am beyond this chastisement. I am liberated," he's a rascal. Why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan ? This is sahajiyā-vāda. He is thinking, "Oh I have become liberated. I don't require any direction of my guru . I'm liberated." Then he's rascal. Why this Gauḍīya Maṭha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru . He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that, "This man should be the next ācārya ." But these people, just after his passing away, they began to fight, who shall be ācārya . That is the failure. They never thought, "Why Guru Mahārāja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be ācārya ?" They wanted to create artificially somebody ācārya , and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Mahārāja wanted to appoint somebody as ācārya , why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insisted on it. They declared some unfit person to become ācārya . Then another man came, then another ācārya , another ācārya . So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Mahārāja. That is perfection. And as soon as he learns the Guru Mahārāja is dead, "Now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and I become." Then he's finished. Yaśomatīnandana: They kept fighting, and when the real ācārya emerged they all became wonderstruck. They all became baffled. Now they all know in their hearts. They all know it. I can see. They all know that who is the real ācārya . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The real ācārya emerges by his own preaching? Devotee: Yes. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Harikeśa: Speak loudly. Hari-śauri: It's very noisy. Mahāṁśa: This is Dr. Ghosh. This is Visukeran Agarwal, one of our very close friends in Hyderabad. He's a very close friend in Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: I think I have seen you. Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Apni Dr. Ghosh? (Are you Dr. Ghosh?) Dr. Ghosh: Ami Dr. Ghosh, bohudin Europe chilam. Tarpore Gurur adeshe amra jongole ekta gram sristi korechi paharer upore. Sekhane athash bochor achi. Ta apnar somosto je byapar amar jana ache. To apnader upolokkhe ekta prokando jaiga okhane, aaj mane chomotkar paharer upore, khub nam kora, eni janen, Kodaikanal. Kodaikanal er kache. Okhane sob jaiga dhore . . . (indistinct) . . . ponchas, ponchas kilometer er modhhe. Khub boro jongoler modhhe amra somosto gram toiri korchi. Sekhane amader upasonar dorkar, apni jodi ektu pododhuli den tahole amader dos hazar loker upokar hoye jai. (Yes I am Dr. Ghosh. I stayed in Europe for many days. Then by the order of my guru we made a village in the forest at the top of the hill. Staying there for twenty eight years. I am aware of all your activities. For your sake I have selected a big place there, at the top of the hill, very beautiful. It's a famous spot, he knows, Kodaikanal. It's near to Kodaikanal. There holding the lands . . . (indistinct) . . . fifty, within fifty kilometers. We have made villages within a very big forest. We need to do some activity of worship there, if we can get the dust of your feet there then it will be of great benefit for the ten thousand people who are residing at that place.) Prabhupāda: Nischoi jabo. (Surely I will go.) Dr. Ghosh: Apni ese . . . apnader ei sob lok joner jonne ami ekta jaiga toiri korechi. Jara, era ja kaaj korche, boddo gorom. Sekhane chomotkar thanda, chiro bosonto. Kak nei, sap nei. (Once you go . . . I have made a place there for all of your people. These people, the work that they are doing, here it is too hot. The climate there is very cool, eternal spring. No crows, no snakes even.) Prabhupāda: Ekhan theke koto dur? (How far it is from here?) Dr. Ghosh: Kachei ekhan theke. Ami to ekhane aat din apnar jonne bose achi. (It's not very far. I am waiting here for you for eight days.) Prabhupāda: Oh! Besh korechen. (Oh, you have done it good.) Dr. Ghosh: (laughing) Ha ha . . . aat din, eni janen. Aat din bose achi, apnar ektu . . . amar naam ache prithibite. Ami mane Paris theke amar . . . (Ha ha . . . eight days, he knows. For eight days I am staying here, just for your little . . . I have a good reputation all over the world, from Paris mine . . .) Prabhupāda: Puro naam ki? (What's your full name?) Dr. Ghosh: Hiranmoy Ghosh Singho. Amra Jessore er lok. Amader pitamoho ra sob Jessore er raja chilo. Sei sob gachhe . . . Singha, sei jonne amader boro cheler naam er pichone ekta Singha thake, kenona amra khotriyo. Ta ami bohu kal bilete chilam. Amar satero bochor bilete theke. Desh swadhin hobar pore amra asi. (Hiranmoy Ghosh Singho. We are from Jessore. Our ancestors were the kings of Jessore. All those are gone now . . . Singha, for that reason the eldest son in our family carries the title "Singha" (Lion), because we are ksatriya . But I stayed overseas for many years. I stayed in foreign countries for seventeen years. After India got independence we came back.) Prabhupāda: Kothai chilen? (Where did you stay?) Dr. Ghosh: Besirbhag somoi France e chilam. Ami daktari MD France theke ni ebong Vienar theke ni. Nea amar Europe e khub boro posar chilo. Jokhon desh swadhin holo, tokhon Sri Aurobindo amader guide chilen. To Jawaharlal Nehru amake deke anen. To dekhlam sob pagoler byapar. Aurobindo bollen, tumi o sober modhhe miso na. Tomar ja kaj seta jongol, gorib lokder songe. To khuje khuje ekta jongol ber kore sekhanei bose achhi athash bochor. Amar boyesh satattor. (Most of the time I stayed in France. I took my MD in Medical from France and Vienna. After that I had a very good practice in Europe. When India got independence, at that time Sri Aurobindo was our guide. Jawaharlal Nehru then called me here. After coming I realized that these were all insanity. Aurobindo told us not to get involved with those people. He said that your job will be in the forest, with poor people. After searching a lot we found out a forest and stationed there for twenty eight years. Now I am seventy seven years old.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . jokhon Gandhir assistant ra sob jail e jai . . . (. . . (indistinct) . . . when all the assistants of Gandhi were going to jail . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Ha. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Onek bar approach korechilo, apni asun. I refused, na na. (They approached me many times, please come and join us. But I refused, no no.) Dr. Ghosh: Sunun amar okhane khub Hari sankirtan hoi, aar amra Joidev, amar stri khub boro songit, khub namkora, biswo bikhyato. Ta amra sob bose achi apnar pododhulir jonne. (Listen, we perform regular Hari sankirtana there at my place and we also recite Jaydeva (a poet), my wife is a big singer, very reputed, famous all over the world. So we all are waiting there for the dust of your feet.) Jokhon e bolben jabo. (I will go whenever you ask me to go.): Prabhupāda: Dr. Ghosh: Ami toiri, apnake ghare, mane Honumaner moton apnake nea jete raji achhi, ek jhape. (laughter) (I am ready, like Hanuman I will carry you in my shoulder and reach there with a big leap.) (laughter)) Prabhupāda: Ekhane 5- 7 din . . . (indistinct) (Here 5 to 7 days . . . (indistinct)) Dr. Ghosh: Ekhan theke kache. Apni . . . apni jedin . . . sunun apnar jonne ami ekhane, eni janen dos din bose achi. Kal rattir bela apnaked dekhlam boro bhir. (It's not far from this place. When you . . . when you . . . see he knows I am sitting here for ten days. I saw you yesterday night but it was heavily crowded.) Prabhupāda: After this function we can go there. Dr. Ghosh: And he knows about Kodaikanal. It's a very wonderful place. Prabhupāda: I shall go there. Mahāṁśa: There are very, very big schools there. Dr. Ghosh: Tahole ki hobe janen, apnar modhhe theke ekta hole por amar mone hoi je sob neche jabe. Aar amader barite to nach gan cholchei saradin. Apni dekhun ekbar. Amra boro gorib, ei . . . (indistinct) . . . ese jan. Amra chaoar, matir ghore thaki. (You know what will happen then, if one program can be done there then I think everyone will take part in dancing. And in our home there are singing and dancing going on throughout the day. You please consider my request once. We are very poor . . . (indistinct) . . . please come, we stay in thatched mud hut.) Prabhupāda: Amar cheye adham ke, ami ei movement start korechilam challish taka dea. (Who is poorer than me, I began this movement with just forty rupees.) Dr. Ghosh: Ta to jani. Sob amar . . . apnake ami onusoron korchi onek bochor dhore. 1966 sal thekei amar mon apnar payer upore. Ta apni se jonne bhabben na. Se sob ja bolbar . . . ami je , apni janen je ami apnar khub boro bhokto. (I know that. Everything I . . . I have been following you for many years now, from 1966 only my mind is residing on your feet. You please don't worry about that. Whatever is to be said . . . I am, you please know that I am a big devotee of you.) *Prabhupāda: Ei jinish tar secret hochhe, yea (The secret of this thing is that,) tesam satata*-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam ( BG 10.10)) Dr. Ghosh: Amar kan ta ektu kala hoye gachhe. Satattor bochor boyesh amaro. Apnar theke ami matro char bochorer . . . (I am becoming little deaf, my age is seventy seven now, I am only four years . . . than you.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ghosh: Ta apnake seba korbar jonne bose achi. Keno amar jonne apni . . . (So I am waiting here just to serve you. Why for me you . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ghosh: Amake sokkole jane. India te ami, amar . . . (Everyone knows me. In India, my . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Mahāṁśa: Ha ha ha, I told . . . Dr. Ghosh: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Amar haat khub bhalo. Onek, enara sob jane. Mane ektu seba kore gele, mane boro boro byadhi sob, amar okhane bhir hoye jai loker. Ta apnake pabo bole, ami kothao jai na. Jei sunlam je apni aschen , ami tara tari ekhane ese bose achi. Apnar kacha kachi e bose thaki. (I am, mine . . . I am expert in that. All these people knows. Means I try to serve, all chronic diseases, people gathers in great number at my place. But only to see you I came. I don't go anywhere. The moment I heard that you are coming, I came hurriedly here and was waiting for you. I remain seated near you only.) Prabhupāda: Apnar . . . (Your . . .) Dr. Ghosh: E sob amar patient, era sokole amake chene. Ta ami bollam, baba amake, ekhan theke nore ami, jotokhhon na Prabhupāda aschen totokkhon. Sei jonne 29 tarikhe. Ta apni jedin jaben, oder sob bondobosto kore bolun. Sei din aponar jonne ami niche . . . (All these people are my patients, they all know me. I said to them, let me, I am not going to move anywhere till the time Prabhupāda is coming. For that reason since 29th. So when you are planning to go, tell them (your disciples) to make arrangements. That day I will be there below . . .) Prabhupāda: Ora je dine bolbe, ami se dine jabo. (When they (my disciples) will select a date, I will go that day.) Dr. Ghosh: Santite cholun. Ta apko to malum hai ke e sob jaiga . . . (indistinct) . . . apnar Gokuler moton lagbe. Okhane amra dos hazar gorib lok achi. Apni jodi ektu pododhuli den tahole amader oi nach gan bhalo . . . (Plan peacefully and come. You know very well about all these places . . . (indistinct) . . . you will feel like you have come to Gokula. We, about ten thousand poor people are staying there. If you kindly visit then our singing and dancing will be very good . . .) Prabhupāda: Mohaprabhu hochhen patita pabon. (Mahāprabhu is the deliverer of fallen souls.) Dr. Ghosh: Patita pabon. (Deliverer of fallen souls.) *Prabhupāda: Narottam Das Thakurer gan, patita*-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . . . (Narottama Das Thakura sang patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Achha, patita pavana. Amra sei upokar, apni kale je bollen upokar karna. Oi tai amader mane aaj athash bochor dhore cholche. (Well, deliverer of fallen souls. You were telling about doing benevolent activity yesterday. We are doing that for twenty eight years.) *Prabhupāda: Mo*-sama patita prabhu nā pāibe āra (Prārthanā 39). This is the appeal made by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, "My Lord, Your incarnation is for very, very fallen souls, and You'll not find anyone who is more fallen than me. Therefore my claim is first." Dr. Ghosh: Ami jokhon gelam aj, bhasa jani na sokole jongli lok. Ora abar, British ra bolche tribe, criminal tribe era. Karon ora goru toru uthie nea jai, dekhche badorer moto fol dekhle jhulche khai. Oder okhane gele, amar athash bochor. Amar pach ta school ache. High school ekhon ekta. Oder mane employment er boddo kosto. Sejonne khete khute okhane ekta . . . (When I first went there, I didn't know their language, all were forest dwellers. Britishers told that these tribe, they are criminally inclined. They used to steal cows etc. and if they saw some fruits hanging in the tree, they will eat it. In that tribal's place I am staying for twenty eight years. I have five schools there. High school is only one now. Getting employment from them is very difficult. That's why after hard work, there one . . .) Prabhupāda: Na na, okhane te sob jaiga royeche, ora sob . . . (No no, there are enough place available, they all . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Jaiga to ami kinichi aste aste. (Gradually I have purchased land there.) Prabhupāda: Ami bolchi, sekhane sob nijeder kheti, nijeder kapor, nijeder . . . (What I want to mean, there they can have their own agricultural activities, own clothes, own . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Sob, tai to bolchi, apni ekbar padadhuli din, apnake dekhabo. (Everything. That's what I am saying, you just come once, I will show you.) Prabhupāda: Ha? (Yes?) Dr. Ghosh: Apni obak, apnar khub anondo hobe. Apni jeta korte bolchen amra seta korchi. (You will be astonished, you will become joyful. What you are telling to do, we are already doing that.) Prabhupāda: Besh. (Very nice.) Dr. Ghosh: Apni ekbar ese jan. Amader ekhane pododhuli din. Amra boddo gorib. Apnake nebar moton shokti amader nei. Ta holeo amra ghare kore apnake nea jabo. (You just come once. You put the dust of your feet there. We are very poor. We don't have enough capacity to take you. Still we will carry you on our shoulder and take you there.) Prabhupāda: Jar Bhogoban sohai ache se abar gorib kothai. (Whom Lord is favouring how can he be poor.) Dr. Ghosh: Ta to ache. Ta na hole apnar songe dekha hoto na. Ami morbar age, ek e , bollam je amake Bhakti . . . Prabhupādaer songe ekbar dekha korie dao. Kal ratti bela, sara din apnar chinta, sondhe bela chinta. Ekhane ese dekhlam. Eikhanei bose achi, oke jiggesh korun. Ami eikhanei bose achi. Apnake ektu seba korbo, ei amar sokh. Sei jonne bhalo tel thel baby oil sob rekhechi. Apnake ektukhani mane changa . . . dekhun amar shokti jothesto ache, apnar theke. (Yes the Lord's favour is there or else I would not be able to see you. Before I die, I told him to fulfil my one wish, let me just once grant a meeting with bhakti . . . Prabhupāda. Yesterday night and all the day, in the evening I was only thinking about you. After coming here I saw you. Since then I am sitting here, ask him I am sitting here since then. Just wanted to give you a little service, that is my wish. For that I have kept good quality oil, baby oil with me. I want to make you little rejuvenated . . . see I am having enough strength, stronger than you.) Prabhupāda: Ha apnar to built well. (Yes you are well built.) Dr. Ghosh: Khub bhalo, keno. (Yes I am well built, because . . .) Prabhupāda: You are healthy . . . Dr. Ghosh: Era sob jane, how I revived them. Ekhankar sob lok amake chene. Ami bollam je Prabhupāda asbe, ora amar okhane ase. Ami bollam Prabhupāda asbe ami okhane gea bosbo. Keno apnar kotha ami dekhun dosh bochor dhore moner moddhe ache. Apni ja ja korchen, somosto tarikh by tarikh apnar somosto bole debo. Amar tin jon ache jara apnar somosto boi, amar okhane tin copy kore ase. Amader librery ta khub boro hoye gachhe, okhane mane, apni okhane ese ekbar amader ektu upodesh din. (They know everything, how I revived them. All people here knows me. I told them Prabhupāda will come, they all come to my place. So I told them Prabhupāda will come, I will go there and wait for him. See for ten years I was thinking about you. Whatever you are doing, I can tell you date by date all the events. We have three persons who reads all your books. Three copies of all your books comes to my place. Our library has become very big. You please come there and give us some advice.) Prabhupāda: Ha ha, ami jabo. (Yes yes, I will go.) Dr. Ghosh: Jongoler moddhe ele dekhun jongoler mongol hoye jabe. (You come to the forest and see that there will be auspiciousness in the forest.) Prabhupāda: Aar apnar, sune ja ekhon bujhechi . . . (So your, what I have understood by hearing from you . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Are, apni obak, apni gea dekhen jodi. Tar moddhe jodi apni Bhagobot sonen aar amader somosto Joydev songskrito, apnar khub anondo hobe. Apnar ekhane ache songskrito, recording tape ta ana hoi ni. To apni okhane cholun, apnake sara din amra nachie debo. Apni dekhbo, amader nach e dekhben sudhu. Amader okhane dance school royechhe.Chaitanya Mohaprabhu e to prothome dance arombho koran. Chaitanya Mohaprabhur age keu dance koran ni. (You will become amazed, If you go there and see. Moreover if you hear *Bhāgavatam* there and all our Jayadev's sangskrit, you will be very pleased. We have Sanskrit here, but the recording tape I couldn't bring. You simply go there, we will make you dance the whole day. You will see, you will see our dance only. We have a dance school there. It was Caitanya Mahāprabhu who first inaugurated the dancing. Before him on one performed dancing.) Prabhupāda: Drama also. Dr. Ghosh: Ei jonne amra sob . . . (That's why we all . . .) Prabhupāda: He is the first beginner of . . . (indistinct) . . . Uni goverment scholar chilen. Russia tasia somosto jaigai, khub, mane govt pathai oke. (She was a government scholar. The Government sends him to Russia and many other places.) Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Ghosh: Ei jokhon khub boro boro lok, boigganik . . . (indistinct) . . . rani, queen Elizabeth. To oi ekmatro ache je gea bujhie dei, je nacher . . . saradin to amader okhane oi nacer e chorcha, ganer chorcha, sob bhorti. Apni amar okhane ja songskrito sunben, apni kokhhono eto bhalo songskrito sonen ni. Eto poriskar. Amar Europe Amerikar jonne kori. Ora onek ase , amader chatrora sob bohu dur theke ase. Germany theke, Sweden theke. To apni ekbar gea pododhuli dea amader bachan. Ta apnar oi ek pododhulite amra aro lafie cholbo. Apni onumoti kore din, apni bole din. (When some big personalities, scientists . . . (indistinct) . . . queens, Queen Elizabeth. So she is the only one who goes and make them understand, this dancing . . . at our place throughout the day there are the practice of singing and dancing, all occupied. The Sanskrit that you will listen at my place, you haven't heard such Sanskrit pronunciation ever. So clear. We do this for Europe and America. Many from those places comes, many of our students comes from very far away places. From Germany, Sweden. You kindly come once and save us by putting the dust of your feet there. By just your one visit we will be highly encouraged. You grant your permission, you instruct them.) Prabhupāda: Apnar chele pule? (Do you have any children?) Dr. Ghosh: Amar ek chele bilete. Se BBC te kaj kore. Broadcasting. Or ekta nijer feature program ache - Question of faith. Se o khub bhokto. Se BBC te robibar 10:30 er somoi or ekta TV program thake. To okhane, okhane thake. Se sonnasi. Se bea tha kore ni. . . . (indistinct) . . . aar ei stri, amar jokhon haat pa bhenge jai. Amar ekta boro acciodent hoi. Amar haat pa nei. Sob lohar tukro tukro bose achhe. Aar ami ekta patient jokhon haspatale jachhilam, ekta gari dhakka mere fele dei . . . (indistinct) . . . to sei somoi uni Germanyr theke asen. Uni German noi, uni Bharotio. Germany te Indian government pathai, sekhanor jonno, amader Bharat natyam jake bole. Tarpore uni ese amar okhane, bolche tomar kach charbo na, tomar haat pa nei. To amake nea okhane gea amake chalie talie thik rakhe se. Aar amar to sara din kaj, gorib lokder kaj. Amra ekso teish jon lok nea arombho kori, 1948 sale. Ekhon amra dosh hazarer er besi lok, pach ta school. Or nijer o school achhe. Tateo ponchanno jon student, somosto bideshi. Tale ki hoi jibon amader bhoyanok kaje thakte hoi. (One of my son is staying overseas. He works in BBC. Broadcasting. He has his own feature program there, "Question of Faith". He is also a very good devotee. In BBC on Sunday 10:30 he has one TV program. So he stays there. He is a renunciate. He is not married . . . (indistinct) . . . and my wife, when I broke my hand and leg. I met with a big accident. I don't have my original hands and legs. Some iron pieces are inserted there. When I was going to a hospital with one of my patient, then one car hit me and threw me in the ground . . . (indistinct) . . . so at that time she came from Germany. She is not a German, she is Indian. Actually Indian government sent her to Germany, to teach dancing, what we call here Bharat natyam. After returning she came to my place. She said that she will not let me stay alone as I didn't have functional hands and legs. Then she took care of me and made me fit. I am to work for whole day, for poor people. We began with hundred and twenty three people in 1948. Now we are more than ten thousand people, five schools are there. She has one of her own school, there are fifty five student's in her school. All are foreigner. So in our life we are to remain busy with heavy workload.) Prabhupāda: Ha ha ha. (Yes, yes, yes.) *Dr. Ghosh: Aar amar boyesh to hoyei jachhe . . . (indistinct) . . . . tokhon jokhon sunlam je baba Prabhupāda aschen, tokhon mane no body can stop me now. Ta okeo likhechi Prabhupāda asben. To ekhane je apnader golmal. Ami oke nea aschilam apnake sonanor jonne. Somosto ostopate amader ekbar chomotkar, ostopath, puro Joydev songskrito, apni ekhane ese ekbar sonen. Amader e doya apnake kortei hobe. Amra jokhon eto seba korchi apnar jonne, apni ekbar payer dhulo din. Ekhon din thik kore din, ami sob bondo, je kore hok . . . (indistinct) . . . aar apnar sunun, ami to sob Jawaharlal Nehru bolun, somosto boro boro lok ami seba koerechi sob. Amar baritei sob ase. Indira Gandhi porjonto amar barite ese . . . aar apnar ekhane pododhulir jonne ami sob toiri kore bose achi, amake apnar payer dhulo ektu. Ami apnake, apni obak hoye jaben. Apni dekhben je apnar amader . . . ha ami to chole jabo porshu din sokalbela kalke Jonmastami kore. Amake adghonta ekdin, apnar somosto deho, ei Rolls-Royce gari apnar atto din choleche, oke ektu servicing dorkar. Apnar to dorkar nei, kintu apnake amader dorkar.To dekhun jodi Bhogoban kauke amar kache gari den, take jodi ami service na kori setao ekta pap. To apni jodi onumoti den, kichhu na, apni sudhu ektu suye thakben. Apni dekhun je Bhogoban kirokom chomotkar . . . (indistinct) . . . ami to ponchas bochor ei kaj korchi. Ponchas bochor. Ami . . . (indistinct) . . . 1947, 1927 e prothom MD, 2nd MD 31 e, Vienna. Tarpore dhorun ei ponchas sal dhore ei kaj e hochhe. Amar okhane sob, even Indira Gandhi thandi, ami jai na, ora amar okhane ese. Keno amar har, amra boli ostio pack. Har, muscle, ogulo, jegulo nurve gulo hochhe jhalie dei. Tate hoi ki dekhben apnar blood pressure thad presure sob sere jabe. (And my age is also increasing . . . (indistinct) . . . when I heard that Prabhupāda is coming, then you know no*-one can stop me now. I have written her also that Prabhupāda will come. But here in your place it's too disturbing. I was about to bring her so that you can hear. All our narration of Astapath, excellently done by us, Astapath, all Jayadev's Sanskrit, you go there are hear it once please. You must have to grant us this mercy. When we are serving you so much, you please visit there once. Now you schedule a date, I will arrange, by hook or by crook . . . (indistinct) . . . listen please, I have served all the big big personalities, like Jawharlal Nehru and others. They all come to my home. Even Indira Gandhi also came to my house . . . and for your visit I have made all arrangements, you please give us the dust of your feet there. I will show, you will be surprised. You will see that for you we . . . I will be leaving day after tomorrow morning after attending Janmastami festival tomorrow. Give me half an hour one day, all your body, your this body is like a Rolls-Royce car, it's running for so long, it needs little servicing. We know that you don't need that but we need you. So if God gives me someone's car and if I do not service it, that too is a sin. So if you kindly grant permission, it's nothing, you just have to lay down. You will see that how wonderfully God has . . . (indistinct) . . . I am doing this job for fifty years. Fifty years. I . . . (indistinct) . . . in 1947, no 1927 I got my first MD and second in 1931 at Vienna. Since then for last fifty years I am doing this job only. In my place everyone, even Indira Gandhi, I don't go to anybody's place, they come to me. Because on bone, we say ostio pack. Bone, muscle, all these and the nerves, I do rejuvenate them. As a result you will see, your blood pressure etc. all will be cured.) Prabhupāda: Ha apnar . . . (indistinct) . . . amar ei whole institute e ami ja bolbo ta hobe. Ami jodi morte boli, morbe. Ei je dictetorship, eta keno ora swikar korche? . . . (indistinct) . . . Uni ja bolchen eitai thik.Seta jodi hoi . . . (indistinct) (Yes your . . . (indistinct) . . . in my institute whatever I will say that is final. If I ask them to die, they will die. So this dictatorship, why are they accepting this? . . . (indistinct) . . . whatever he is saying that's actually correct. If that is the case . . . (indistinct) . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Amar o tai, apni ja bolchen tai thik. (Me too, whatever you are telling that's correct for me as well.) Prabhupāda: Seta jodi hoi, tahole to success hoye gelo. Ta na hole ekta . . . (indistinct) . . . Seta korte hole, . . . (indistinct) . . . yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā (SB 5.18.12) . . . (indistinct) . . . sudhu boktrita dea gele bipod . . . (indistinct) . . . Ta na hole loke dumre dumre dumre . . . (It it's so then success is achieved. Else some . . . (indistinct) . . . to do that . . . (indistinct) . . . Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā (SB 5.18.12) . . . (indistinct) . . . only to give lecture is dangerous . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise people will distort distort distort . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Amar o, ami jani seta. Amar opor apni dekhben bhoktir, nahole por oi jongoler moddhe jekhane athash sal thakchi. Nana rokom jongli, boro boro Ajogor sap nea amra bose achi. Kono bhoi nei. Kauke chini na. Sudhu gurur adesh. Jao tumi gea dekho, ora atto gorib amader. Ta apni dekhben je amader koto boro boro industry amra korchi. Hate toiri kora sob, amader oi jongoler lok sob toiri . . . (Mine also, I know that. You will see, devotion is on me, else in that forest I am staying for twenty eight years. There we are living with varities of forest dewellers, huge Pythons. We don't have any fear. We don't know anybody. Only the order of my guru —you go and stay there, they are so poor. You will be happy to see that we have made big big industries. All hand made things, those forest dewellers, they make all . . .) Prabhupāda: Hater e toiri, beshi kol kobjai na. (Handmade is good, don't use machines much.) Dr. Ghosh: Na na kolkobja noi. Ta holeo dekhun emon ekta somoi ese gache. (No no, not much machinery. Still you see such a time has come.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ghosh: Kol kobjar moddhe nei. Ta hole dekhun power na hole por chorka chole na. Tahole power station, nijeder station korte hoi ekta. Khub, apni dekhle, oi gobor dea e amra kori. (We are not into machines. Still you see without power the wheels don't move. In that case power station, we are to make our own power station then. Good if you see, we do it by using cow dung.) Prabhupāda: Self help. Dr. Ghosh: Ha? Gobor deai kori. Cow dung gas fas sob royeche . . . (indistinct) . . . aste aste. Emon kichu ekta birat byapar noi. Houar upai o nei. (What? We do it by cow dung. Cow dung gas is there . . . (indistinct) . . . gradually. It's not such a big thing. There is no scope also to make it big.) Prabhupāda: Na na, jinish ta hochhe, our life should be simplified. (No no, actually the thing is that our life should be simplified.) Dr. Ghosh: Absolutely. Prabhupāda: We shall not unnecessarily complication na. Dr. Ghosh: Amader to ekebare simple. Amra je bari ghor dor kori, sob chomotkar. Sokole bole khub bhalo, ekebare simple. Aar amra ekta gram korchi ekhon. (Ours are totally simple. The house that we make, all are wonderful. Everyone says those are very good, totally simple. Now we have made a village.) *Prabhupāda: Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya (BG 6.17). Dr. Ghosh: Minimum. Dignity bujhechen. (Minimun. Just a matter of dignity you see.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . find out this verse. *Devotee: Yukta*-ceṣṭasya karmaṇā ? *Prabhupāda: Where is Bhagavad*-gītā ? Dr. Ghosh: Apnar sob amar okhane ache. Ta apni ekdin kaj korun, ami ekhane apnar payer dhare bose thakbo, ami to norchi na. Ete ki ache. Apnar jodi ek ghonta somoi thake. Ami apnar jonne mane Amerika theke je, ekebare pobitro tel jeta hoi, mane jol, baby oil, baby der newborn baby der, rekhechi. Apnii ,amake ektu khani jodi . . . apni dekhben, amar tahole khub bhalo, amar khub bhalo haat. Apni bujhte parben. Aar apnar seba ami ektu korte chai morbar age. Dekhun parshod na thakle por, apnader ke bachie rakhbar moto lok nei. Amra sob apnar parshod sob. (All your books are there with me. You please do one thing, I will just sit beside your feet, I am not going to move anywhere. It's very simple. If you have one hour free time. From America I have arranged, totally sanctified oil and water, means water, baby oil, oil for newborn baby, I have kept with me. If you please just a little . . . you will see, I will feel good, my hands are very expert on this. You will realise. And before I die I wish to render some little service to you. See if associates are not there, no one is here to keep you alive. We all are your associates only.) Prabhupāda: Kripa kore amake rakhun.Din kotok kaj kori. (Please do protect me. Let me work for few more day's.) Dr. Ghosh: Dekhun parshod na thakle, Mohaprabhu Chaitanya sob, ora oke to, apnader sob rakhbar jonne prarthona korte hoi Bhogobaner kache. Dekhun apnar hochhe dos inchi pipe, amra hochhi one eighth inch pipe. Apnar je, je Bhogoban apnake or moddhe dea thele pathachhen, jara parshod tara to thik regulate kore rakhte hoi . . . (indistinct) . . . sei apni bhabun. Apni, ami jani, apnar kono chinta nei. (See, if associates are not there, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's all, for Him they, to keep you people alive prayrs are to be offered to the Lord. You are having a ten inch pipe, we are one eighth inch pipe. What your, what God is giving you, through you what God is pushing down, those who are the associates, they need to regulate the force . . . (indistinct) . . . so you please think over it. You, I know, you have nothing to worry about.) *Prabhupāda: Apni bolun, parshod bolte gele, kṛṣṇa*-varṇaṁ viṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam (SB 11.5.32), Parshadoi. (You say, to say about associates, kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam . Parshadoi , associates.) Dr. Ghosh: Eita eita eita amar khub bhalo lage. (This one I like very much.) *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa*-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgo upāṅgā pārṣadam yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Amra to parshoder upasona koe thaki. (We are the worshipper of the associates.) (chuckles) Dr. Ghosh: Na na, apni apni apni nijeke nije apni dekhen e ni, bhaben e ni. Amra jani apni ke. Parshoderai jane. Apni je bollen biswas koro. Ami jodi matha khureo jodi mori , ke aar biswas korbe? Apni bollen biswas koro, moro, more jabe. Era sob parshod. Apni jodi amake bolen, tumi more jao ekhane, ami more jabo. Sudhu apnar kothar jonne noi, kenona apni amra apnar parshod, apnake jibon dea apnake rakhte hoi. Ta na hole por monusso jatir upor kono . . . upai nei. Jekhan je Bhogobaner bikash, sekhane dekhben sob lok take bachie rakhbar jonne. (No no, you have not seen yourself, have not thought about it. We know who you are. Only associates knows. You told us to believe. If I, even if I try hard, who will believe me? You said—please keep faith. If you tell them to die, they will die. They are all associates. If you tell me, you die here, I will die. Not only for your words but because we are your associates, by sacrificing life you have to be protected. Otherwise on the human race nothing . . . no way. Were there is the manifestation of God, you will see many people sacrificing there to keep him alive.) *Prabhupāda: Bhagavaner upasona hoi sa*-parshod. (God's worship is done along with His associates.) Dr. Ghosh: Edike amar kan bhoyanok kala, tobuo apnar sob kotha ami sunchi. (Just see my ear is almost deaf and still I am able to hear all your words.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . Gopal. Go paal. (. . . (indistinct) . . . Gopal. Maintainer of the cow's.) Dr. Ghosh: Gopal oh. (Oh Gopal.) Prabhupāda: Mane jini Go ke palon koren. Tar parshod. Bhogobaner goru houa, o parshod chara hote pare na. Ei je Bhogoban emni kore alingon korche, e sadharon bachur? Do you think they are ordinary calves? (Means who maintains the cows. His associates. To become a cow of the Lord, without being an associate it's not possible. Here see how Lord is embracing, is it an ordinary calf? Do you think they are ordinary calves?) Mahāṁśa: To be embraced by Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: They are associates. They are associating with Lord as calf, as cow. Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ (BS 5.37). Nija-rūpa . Dr. Ghosh: Amar nijer rup dekheo bolben, Janama abadhi hamo rupo niharenu nayana na tiropito. Ei je ruper ekta khela cholche, lakho lakho yuga . . . (indistinct) . . . nu, tobu hiye juralu nayanu. Ei dekhun apnake dekhchi, aar kono dekhbar nei amar. Sob pash. Amra sob durer theke , kacher theke sob pash. Jonom jonom dhore dekhchi. (You are saying to see my own form, since birth I am seeing different forms but still my eyes are not satiated. That this game of form is going on, for millions of years . . . (indistinct) . . . by seeing you my eyes are satisfied.) *Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana, the calves, the cows, the trees, the land, the water—everyone, ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ . That is expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Cit-śakti . There are three energies: spiritual, material and marginal. So Vṛndāvana affairs means expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa . Sac-cid-ānanda. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Rasa , mellow. Everyone is trying to relish some mellow. Here in this material world we get family to taste some mellows. One kind of mellow is wife, one kind of mellow are children, one kind of mellow is the servants, one kind of mellow is the friends, one kind of mellow is the properties. They are all mellows, rasa . Unless there is some taste, why one should be hankering after all these things? Why one is hankering after some woman or some man or some friends or for children? One who has got no children, he's hankering after some child. He's expecting, "When I shall get a child?" The rasa . There is husband-wife rasa , but there is no rasa of the child. Therefore they are praying, "When we shall get a child?" So there is another rasa . So raso vai saḥ . He is the reservoir of rasas . So if we derive all the rasas from the Supreme, because He is the reservoir of rasas . . . *Mahāṁśa: Akhila*-rasāmṛta-sindhu . *Prabhupāda: Akhila*-rasāmṛta , yes. Akhila-rasāmṛta-sindhu . So you can have all the rasas , and that is the origin of bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu . In bhakti , that rasa , you become in the ocean of rasa . You're hankering after rasa . There is a Vedic injunction, raso vai saḥ labdhvānandi ānand ī. One who has got the rasa , labdhvānandi , then he gets the real ānanda . That ānanda-cinmaya-rasa expansion is Kṛṣṇa's calves, cows, gopī friends, cowherd boy friends, Nanda, Yaśodāmāyi, so many. So to be Kṛṣṇa conscious means to participate with these rasas. It is not dry. It is not dry, like, simply so 'ham , so'ham , finished. So 'ham , they do not know the meaning. So 'ham means I belong to the same rasa . I also eligible to enjoy the same rasa . But Kṛṣṇa is . . . (break) . . . and the calves, the cows are enjoying the rasa as predominated. Just like husband and wife, they are enjoying, both. But one is enjoying as the husband, predominator. The husband is forcefully dragging the wife. She's also . . . while she is dragged by force, she enjoys. That is another rasa. But there is rasa . Combined together it becomes rasa . Similarly, Kṛṣṇa does not enjoy this material. This material rasa is the perverted reflection of that cinmaya-rasa . So we have to get ourselves nil of all these material rasas , and we have to be situated in the cinmaya . Then our . . . ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Then our life is perfect. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Rasa is there. Here perverted reflection. The perverted reflection . . . my Guru Mahārāja used to say to taste milk in white, what is called, lime water. White lime water, it looks like milk. But it is not milk. It is different thing. Similarly, we are trying to taste the rasa of milk in lime water. Therefore we are baffled. Dr. Ghosh: That is true. Whole universe is rasa . Even in Mars they're trying to find humidity. What is humidity, rasa . Everything is moving on the rasa only. We are floating on rasa . Prabhupāda: Our aim of understanding this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not a sentiment. It is a great science, great science. Otherwise how we are writing so many books? If it was a dry . . . Dr. Ghosh: Nothing happens in dryness. *Prabhupāda: Why people are accepting our books? You'll be surprised, we are selling book to the extent of six lakhs of rupees per day. Daily. Daily we are selling six lakhs of rupees' worth all over the world. So people think philosophy, religion, dry subject matter. If it was dry subject matter, how they could purchase so many books? It is ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa . They are getting for the first time, here is real ānanda . Therefore they are appreciating. Everyone, learned circle, they are giving appreciation. In . . . (indistinct) . . . foreign circles. So, there was no such literature. It is the first time. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇaṁ vaiṣṇavānām . . . (SB 12.13.18). So unless they're really relishing some rasa, how they are purchasing? This is the first distribution of ānanda-cinmaya-rasa throughout the whole world, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So I am very happy that you are also very . . . (indistinct) . . . let us join together, we shall raise . . . Dr. Ghosh: We can consult and fix a date, what suits Prabhupāda best, then I will arrange for the rest at that end. Mahāṁśa: When are you leaving Hyderabad? Dr. Ghosh: I'm leaving just after . . . you see, I was leaving long ago, but he was coming. So I will leave 19th morning plane. That is the day after the Janmāṣṭamī tomorrow. Night, whatever festivity, I'll be here. I think there will be some saṅkīrtana also. After that, early morning, I'll catch the plane and go up to Madras, and there I shall fly again to my tila (my small hill top place). It is not very far, as you are thinking, but you know Kodaikanal is the, prithibir moddhe naki sobcheye bhalo jaiga, climatologically. Amar ichhe je amar ja kichu achhe apnar possessione dea, okhane era je kaj kormo korche gorome, majhe majhe gea ektu recharge. (Kodaikanal, supposedly it's the best place in the whole world, climatologically. I wish that whatever I have I will give those unto your possession, what these people are working here in such hot environment, they can visit there sometime to recharge.) Because they are recharging the battery of the urban line. But they also will be recharging that battery in a nice cosmic place. And that . . . Prabhupāda: Amader je rasa, our rasa, it can be tasted by the topmost intellectual man. (The rasa that we have, our rasa , it can be tasted by the topmost intellectual man.) Dr. Ghosh: Of course. Prabhupāda: And it can be tasted by the lowest . . . Dr. Ghosh: No intellect at all. I know that. *Prabhupāda: But why? Because this intellect, highest or lowest, that is in relationship with the body. But it is beyond the body. It is not . . . sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya (BG 14.26). It is beyond the three guṇas . The body is of the material guṇas—sattva , rajas , tamas . One man is good man, one man is passionate, one is foolish. Guṇa . Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo'sya . Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhunjante guṇān (BG 13.22)? (aside) Find out this. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhunjante . . . beginning with puruṣaḥ . Everything is explained, Bhagavad-gītā . *Dr. Ghosh: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is matchless. We are reading and re-reading, and every time we find much more, you see? Terrific. And you have put the simplest method—"As it is," as you say. Why complicate, tika this . . . that is why . . . you know, we can be safely called intellectuals. But, you know, we are tired of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ghosh: Tired. We cannot find anything. Neti neti vicāra te patra patra (sangskrit) . . . impossible. Then what do you get out of the life? The joy, rasa, apni je bollen, (The joy which you just have mentioned), that is the main substance. To get it you cannot get neti neti, Mohaprabhur ja hoyechilo . . . (indistinct) . . . (To get it you cannot get neti neti , what Mohaprabhu experienced . . . (indistinct) . . .) *Prabhupāda: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi (BG 13.22). (aside) Find out. Puruṣaḥ . Why you cannot find this verse? What you are . . . Mahāṁśa: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti , bhuñjante . . . *Prabhupāda: Tad guṇān. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi . You did not find? Dr. Ghosh: Eta apnar *Bhāgavatam* series na tinte volume? (Is this your *Bhāgavatam* series or just three volume?) *Prabhupāda: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Seventeen volumes. Seventeen. Dr. Ghosh: I have only two. Can I . . . is there any set available? I would like to buy the rest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: *Prabhupāda: Puruṣa , the living entity, he is now within the material energy. Prakṛti*-sthaḥ . Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho . . . *Mahāṁśa: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi . Prabhupāda: Stho hi . *Mahāṁśa: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . Prabhupāda: On account of his being in touch with the material energy, he has to suffer or enjoy the modes of material nature. Modes of material nature, and because, just like in your medical science one is suffering from a certain type of disease on account of his being infected by the similar virus or . . . what is called? Mahāṁśa: Virus. Prabhupāda: Ha? Mahāṁśa: Virus. Prabhupāda: Virus. Dr. Ghosh: Virus. Animate in, apnader theory ami porechi. (Virus. Animate in, I have read your theory.) Now we know even the inanimate is animate, but by virology only it is changing. All the unanimate subject is slowly being transformed into animate. We are all convinced the whole process is the same. It's a terrific science now, virology. Latest, we have discovered. I am also working on virology quite a bit for all the virus disease and all. And we can eliminate them by only vacuum. My whole cure, they call it miracle and all this nonsense, it is only creating a vacuum which automatically takes away. Prabhupāda: This virology will be complete . . . Dr. Ghosh: When we accept this. Prabhupāda: . . . when you accept this. Dr. Ghosh: I know. (laughs) And I have accepted long ago. Because I felt, as a sincere worker, medicine doesn't interest me. What interests me is the cure. My profession is to cure, not to study the medicines. That is the cure. *Prabhupāda: Here it is very clearly stated that kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). The virology, infection, kāraṇam , that is the kāraṇam . Kāraṇam guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu . Why there are varieties of life? One is very intelligent . . . Dr. Ghosh: You know also in Vedic sangit , Tamasa bahurupena bestitaha karma hetu na . . . (indistinct) . . . sukha dukhha samanwita (Sanskrit). Prabhupāda: Same thing. Dr. Ghosh: Same thing, no? Everything has light. Only it is in transformation by that formula, it is inanimate to animate. That is what is happening all around us. *Prabhupāda: So, if from . . . just like medical science . . . it is also a medical science. Bhavauṣadhi. It is . . . auṣadhi means medical science. This is bhavauṣadhi . By this treatment one becomes relieved from the material disease. Bhavauṣadhi . Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra*-mano-'bhirāmāt . But the medicine is so nice that it is pleasing to the ear and to the heart. The medicine pleasing to the ear? What is that. *Mahāṁśa: Hari*-nāma . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Ghosh: Apni amader okhane cholun, amader o khub bhalo naam . . . (indistinct) . . . amader Bangali dhoroner sob amra korechi, amader recording e ache sob. Apnake sonabo. Apni khub anando paben. Amader ek family ache Mohana Nanda, tini Deoghar e thaken, tini ekhane ese amader record korie jan. Aar amar stri to saradin naach neai ache, Bhogobaner nach. Apnar khub bhalo lagbe, apni ektu. Aram noi, ekebare somadhir moddhe apni ese jaben. Cholun na, oder hukum kor din. (You please come to our place, we also have very good nama . . . (indistinct) . . . we have made it in Bengali style, in our recording everything is there. We will play for you. You will be very happy. We have one family named Mohana Nanda, he stays in Deoghar, he comes here and makes the recording. And my wife is busy all day with her dancing, for God. You will feel very happy, you please. Not only feel comfort, you will reach samadhi stage there. Please instruct them, let's go.) Prabhupāda: Jedin ora fix up korbe. (When they will fix up the date?) Dr. Ghosh: Ha? (What?) Prabhupāda: Ora jedin fix up korbe. (When they will fix up the date?) Dr. Ghosh: Ha oi je hukum. (Yes that is called order.) We decide a date, and take . . . not too . . . we have no means for having too many people, but about dozen people, or ten people can come. And they will have all facility. We can arrange a station wagon and everything there. You have to come up to Kodaikanal Road Station. And if you like we shall arrange for your departure from Madras . . . (indistinct) . . . Ami sathe. (I will be with you.) We will come with you. Apni . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda ke rekhe asben. We will accompany you all the way. Aapko aur Surana shab ko bol denge, aap dono . . . (indistinct) . . . le jayenge. Tahole choli. Apnake aar, apnake aar . . . apni ekdin hukum korun, apnar seba tahole okhanei apnake korbo. (I will accompany you. We will come with you. You . . . (indistinct) . . . take Prabhupāda to stay there. We will accompany you all the way. I will intimate you and Mr. Surana, you two . . . (indistinct) . . . will take you. Goodbye then. Your, your . . . you just order one day. Your service, I will serve you there then.) Prabhupāda: Ha ha. (Yes yes.) Dr. Ghosh: When you come there. Ekhane boddo golmal. (It's very noisy here.) I'll get everything ready. It is settled you are coming at there earliest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ghosh: Apni bole din kobe. (You tell me the date.) Prabhupāda: When they'll make a program, conveniently, I shall go. Dr. Ghosh: Ami, dekhiye. (I, you see.) I'm leaving on 29th morning. If you can give me a word by tomorrow evening. Not 29th; 19th. Today is 17th. Prabhupāda: They cannot decide so soon. Dr. Ghosh: : Janmāṣṭamīr pore? (After Janmāṣṭamī?) Prabhupāda: Janmāṣṭamī pore. (Yes after Janmāṣṭamī.) Dr. Ghosh: Apnar vyas pujar . . . (Your vyasa puja's . . .) Prabhupāda: Another program is that we are going that side during . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ghosh: Kanyakumari te jaben naki? Odike jaben naki? (Will you go to Kanyakumari? Will you go in that direction?) Prabhupāda: Ha. (Yes.) Dr. Ghosh: To cholun amra songe jabo. Amader barir kachei to. Palni te asun. Palni, Kentur khub bhalo area. Kumar. (Well we will also go with you then. It's near to our home. You go to Palni. Palni, Kentur, very good places, Kumar also.) So we have to see . . . (indistinct) . . . (background comments by devotees) You also send this. Mahāṁśa: Yes, I have to take little time. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Please come in. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda ki jaya . Prabhupāda: Give them little prasādam . Dr. Ghosh: Oder ekta din thik korte bole din. (Please tell them to fix a date.) Prabhupāda: Ha ora korlei ami chole jabo. (Yes once they fix a date I will go.) Gurukṛpā: He's a life member from Bangalore. He was one of our first members in South India. Prabhupāda: I saw you? Give them prasādam . Indian man: Last night at the airport. Prabhupāda: Give them prasādam . Devotee: They had prasādam . Prabhupāda: Aap idhar ka hi rehne wale hai? From Bangalore? (Do you stay here? Or from Bangalore?) Indian man (2): Hum Bangalore rehne wale hai. Aap bahut uttam kar rahe hai. Bhagawan ka prachar kar rahe hai. (I stay at Bangalore. You are doing a very noble job. You are preaching about God.) Prabhupāda: Iske bina to kuch janna nahi hai. (I don't know anything else than this.) Indian man (2): Ji Maharaj? (Yes Mahārāja?) Prabhupāda: *Without bhagavad*-bhakti , this so-called advancement of civilization is simply decorating the dead body. Indian man (2): Correct. Cent percent correct. Prabhupāda: What is the use of decorating the dead body? Indian man (2): Correct. Yes. We must decorate real . . . *Prabhupāda: And this body is . . . either dead or alive, Bhagavad*-gītā condemns: gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ (BG 2.11). So these rascals are interested with this body, and they're proud of their advancement of education. And Bhagavad-gītā says nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . So they are passing as great scientists, philosophers, politicians, philanthropists, but all apaṇḍitāḥ. Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . That means apaṇḍita . Indian man (3): : Apnar doya na hole ki kore hobe mosai? (Unless your mercy is there how can it be?) Prabhupāda: Ami to doya korbar jonne to sara duniya ghure berachi. (I am travelling all over the world to give mercy.) Indian man (3): : Ei to bolchi dhonnobad dilum apnake, khub beshi. (That's what I am saying, I am thanking you for that, a lot of thanks.) (laughter) *Prabhupāda: And the first thing of Bhagavad*-gītā lesson is that aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān (BG 2.11): "You are talking like a learned man, but you are rascal." Apaṇḍitaḥ . One who is not educated, he's a rascal. So He's indirectly saying: "This kind of lamentation is not for the paṇḍita . It is for the rascal." So whole world is interested with this body, and Bhagavad-gītā's teaching begins condemning the concept of body. Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Nobody knows this. And they are very learned scholars in Bhagavad-gītā . Indian man (3): : Ha ha, apnar doya holei to learned bola jai, nahole ki kore bola jai? (When you shower your mercy then one can become learned, otherwise how can one be said as learned?) *Prabhupāda: All these rascals, they're claiming to be learned scholar of Bhagavad*-gītā . Indian man (2): Anyhow, humlog, We are lucky souls, that we are surrendered souls. (Anyhow, we, we are lucky souls, that we are surrendered souls.) Prabhupāda: Ha, humko sab miljhul karke, ye jo andolon hai isko achhi tara se samhalna. (Yes, we all will come together and this movement that is going on, we have to maintain it nicely.) Indian man (2): Correct. Prabhupāda: Yeh to akele . . . (I am alone . . .) Indian man (2): Nahi nahi Bhagwan ka ichha hai , sab ka duty hai . . . (No no, It's the Lord's will, all of us have responsibility . . .) Prabhupāda: Whatever is done, it is by single man's effort. If all our actually leaders, they take up, then India will be glorified. They'll feel . . . yes, they're expecting. Outside India, people, they expect that there is something better knowledge in India. Therefore as soon as some svāmīs or yogī goes there, they come. But they cheat. Indian man (2): Many have come to cheat. Prabhupāda: These rascals, I shall say that, sir, they do not know anything, and they go there for teaching yoga . And they are bogus. Indian man (2): Bogus, bogus. So many bogus people are going. Prabhupāda: They do not know what is yoga . Indian man (2): They do not know what is what. What that is truth. They don't know. Prabhupāda: And they get cheap money and women and that's all. That is their business. Indian man (2): Aap Bharat ko ashirbad kariye. Iha Bhagabat dharma, Sanatan dharma ka prachar khub beshi hoye. (You shower your blessings upon India. Let the Bhagavad dharma , Sanatan dharma be spread extensively here.) Prabhupāda: Aap log sab . . . (indistinct) . . . join kijiye, dekhye na abhi Bharat ka chehara badal jayega. (You all . . . (indistinct) . . . you join this movement, just see the face of India will change.) Indian man (2): Badal jaye to achhi bat hai. Abhi to . . . (If it get's changed then it will be very good. But now . . .) Prabhupāda: Jaroor jayega. (Surely it will change.) Indian man (2): Ha, jaroor jayega. (Yes, it will surely change.) Prabhupāda: Kyun ki Bharat abhi bhoola nahi. (Because India still haven't forgotten.) Indian man (2): Nahi. Yeh to Bhagawan ka bhoomi hai. (Yes. This is the land of the Lord.) Prabhupāda: Yeh jabardasti isko bhulaya ja raha hai. (Now people are made to forget forcibly.) Indian man (2): Haan, Bhagwan ka bhumi hai. Yeh to politician log ghuma rahe hai isko. (laughs) Bhagwan ka bhumi hai ye. (Yes, this is the land of the Lord. Only these politician's are making things distorted. (laughs) This is the land of the Lord.) Prabhupāda: To ab ek. . . (indistinct) . . . karke Hari kirtna kijiye. Gao gao me. (So you do one thing . . . (indistinct) . . . perform Hari kirtana . Village to village.) Indian man (2): Apne paas bhi Thakur bari hai, swami Yashonand dekha hai . . . (indistinct) . . . kuch dharam hai. (At my place also there is a temple, Swami Yashonand have seen . . . (indistinct) . . . we are also religious.) *Gurukṛpā: He has a temple. The whole third floor of his house is a temple. He has Sītā*-Rāma, Kṛṣṇa, Gopāla. He has big temple. They have saṅkīrtana every night. Every morning and night. Indian man (2): Hamare Guruji to Vrindaban ke, aap jante hai. Rang Ji ke bari bagiche me rehte the. Jagad Guru swami Raghunath acharya. Aap to jante hai, Vrindaban gaye hai aap bhi. (My guru is from Vṛndāvana, you might be knowing. He stays in the big garden of Rang Ji. His name is Jagad Guru Swami Raghunath Acarya.) Prabhupāda: Mai to Vrindaban me hi raha. Abhi Radharani humko bhagaya. (I was staying in Vṛndāvana only. Then Radharani made me run.) Indian man (2): Bhaga diya! Radharani ka prachar karna hai to bhagayega ji. (Oh she made you run! Of course Radharani will make you run to preach about her.) (laughter) Prabhupāda: Ho giya. (Now it's done.) Indian man (2): Bhag giya tab hi to achha hua. Aab to lakho ka uddhar hoga, lakho ka. Uha baithe rehte tab to lakho ka nahi hota. Yaha to lakho ka uddhar hoga. Sare dunia ka ho raha hai. (You ran away then only such a good thing have happened. Now millions will be saved, millions. Had you been sitting there then millions could not have been saved. Now millions will be saved. It's happening all over the world.) Prabhupāda: Isiliye to, uo Radharani bhaga bhi deta hai. (That's why I am saying, sometime Radharani can make you run also.) Indian man (2): Bilkul bilkul. Mahatma ka shrap bhi asirvad hota hai. Radharani to prem hai. Uo to Ma hai. Ma to bete ko achha ke liye bhejta hai. Bahut sundar karya ho raha hai. Humko to bahut santosh hai, bara anand hai. (Of course, of course. The curse of a saintly person is actually a blessing. Radharani is love. She is the mother. For the benefit of the son, the mother sends her son away. Now such wonderful activities are going on. I am highly satisfied, very happy.) Gurukṛpā: That Raṅganātha temple is that temple where they do not allow us in. So Sampat Kumar and all of these paṇḍitas , they will sign one letter trying to request them, also with the Purī people, to request them to let us in. While they are all here they will do that. Also Sampat Kumar was thinking that in November and December in South India the weather is nice because the rainy season is finished, and it would be a very good time to go and visit many of the temples. He personally knows many people in all the big temples: Shri Rangam, Kañcipuram, Mahabalipuram, Tirupati. They could arrange for receptions and programs. *Prabhupāda: Hum abhi tak Bharat varsh ka divya bhumi ka dekha nahi. Hum ghar chor kar ke Vrindavan me ake baith gaya. Fir Vrindavan se Amerika chala gaya. (Until now I haven't totally seen the divine land of Bhārata*-varṣa. After leaving home I went to Vṛndāvana and was sitting there. Then from Vṛndāvana I went to America.) Indian man (2): Amerika chala gaya. (He went to America.) Indian man (3): : Vrindavan me to . . . (indistinct) . . . (In Vrindavan . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian man (2): Amerika jana nahi to agga hua, yea sab jaga prachar karne ke liye bhej diya . . . (There was order to go to America, he was sent to preach all over the world . . .) Indian man (3): : . . . (indistinct) sanskrit . . . Indian man (2): Amrit hai Bhagwan, amrit . . . (God is nectar, nectar . . .) Indian man (3): : . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): Yeh to zahar hai dunia . . . (indistinct) . . . dunia is a poison. God is amritam.. . . (indistinct) . . . Just opposite na. Das koti ashirbad kariye aap ke charno ki . . . (This world is poison . . . (indistinct) . . . world is poison. God is nectar . . . (indistinct) . . . they are just opposite. Please bless me ten million times with the dust of your feet . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . iska bandobast karie. (. . . (indistinct) . . . please arrange for this.) Indian man (2): Ji. Oh to ho raha hai. Yes sab keya ho raha hai Maharaj? Ye to sab bandobast ho raha hai, nahi. (Yes sir. That is already happening. What all this activities are meant for Mahārāja? All these are that arrangement only.) Prabhupāda: Lekin yeh to mushkil hai, to iha do char mahina lega na, Government . . . (But there is difficulty, if it takes few months here then government . . .) Indian man (2): Government ka thoda abhi policy, aap ashirbad karie to . . . (The policy of the government now somewhat unfavorable, if you shower your blessings then . . .) Prabhupāda: Is waje se, isliye, jab tak Bharat ke log . . . (indistinct) . . . (That's why, until the people of India . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian man (2): Politics nahi, government jo hai na, bhakt bane hai, tab tak. (Not about politics, the government that is here, let them become devotee, till then . . .) Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi, government ka baat nahi hai. Bolta hai ki yeh jo prachar karjo, jabtak Indian log, samajh rahe hai na. Yeh mushkil se bahar se ate hai . . . (indistinct) . . . (No no, it's not about government. I am saying that this preaching activity, until Indian people, are you getting my point. These people comes from outside with difficulty . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian man (2): Nahi, karenge. Aap ke ashirbad hai inke upar haat hai to sab kam hoga. (Yes, we will do. Your blessings are there, you have kept your hand upon him, so everything will happen.) Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi aap sunie na. (No no, you please listen.) Indian man (2): Ji ji. (Yes sir.) Prabhupāda: Jaise yeh log sahajog karte hai. (The way these people (foreigners) are cooperating.) Indian man (2): Ha, sab log karenge. (Yes, all will do.) Prabhupāda: Indian log karte . . . (Had Indian people also . . .) Indian man (2): Karenge, milke karenge. (They will also do, we will do it together.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Indians, they are not coming. Intelligent, educated Indians, they are not coming . . . (indistinct) . . . Boliye sabko, aap log milke samjhaie. (You tell everyone, convince them together.) Indian man (2): Swamiji bolte hai ki sabko samjhaiye, jab Bharat me baithe hai . . . (Swamiji is telling that we should tell everyone, when we are sitting in India itself . . .) Prabhupāda: Ha, especially South Indians. (Yes, especially South Indians.) Indian man (2): Ha, inko samjhake . . . (Yes, to make them understand . . .) Prabhupāda: South Indian. Indian man (3): : Jo bhi inke sath milke kam hi hai. (Whatever it may be, the job has to be done with them together.) Prabhupāda: There, still their Indian original culture is still there in South India. Other parts of India, they are not now . . . (indistinct) Indian man (3): : Correct. South India . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): Swamiji bolte hai iha ka bhi aap prachar kariye. Sabko pakarke inke sath milake is karya ko badhana chahiye . . . (indistinct) . . . yeh iha ka sabse bara . . . (indistinct) . . . south India ka. To yeh , agar isme bhag liya to sab kam ho jayega. (Swamiji is saying that you people also began preaching here. Get everyone and bring them together and spread the preaching activity . . . (indistinct) . . . he is the biggest . . . (indistinct) . . . of south India. If he takes part in this then all the job will be accomplished.) Prabhupāda: Isliye to aapko bol raha hu. Indian our American milkar kam karenge. (That's why I am telling you people. Both Indian and American will have to work together.) Indian man (2): Milkar kam karenge. (We will work together.) Prabhupāda: To isse bada asar parega, prabhab parega. (Then there will be great effect, good influence will be there.) Indian man (2): Jaroor prabhab parega. (Of course it will have influence.) Prabhupāda: Yeh to hai, aap Indian ko bulaiye. Sab mil kar ke gao gao me jaye.Ye jo bus hai hum log ka . . . (indistinct) . . . kahi bhi gao me giya, baith giya. Bhagawan ka murti hai, seba puja hoga, uha prasad bitaran hua . . . (indistinct) . . . (These people (foreigners) are here, you bring the Indians. Let them go villege after villege together. We have bus with us . . . (indistinct) . . . any time visit a villege and sit there. God's Deity is present, so worship and service will happen, then prasadam serving also will be done . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian man (3): : Har gao me jayega? (Will they go to every village?) Indian man (2): Ha, nahi bus me baithke sab le jayenge, prachar karenge. (No, they will take everyone by bus and will be preaching there.) Prabhupāda: Ha. Yeh to mazood hai . . . (indistinct) . . . jada nahi, ek dafa inka , ek dafa unka. Abhi arrangement kijiye. Ye log ko bhi mazood hai. Abhi kuch din me aa jenge. Achha sikshit. (Yes. These people are here . . . (indistinct) . . . not too much, once their turn then next time others. Please make the arrangements now only. These people are present here. Within few days they will come. Well educated.) Indian man (2): Ji ji. (Yes, yes.) Prabhupāda: Jo samajh sake. (Who will be able to make them understand.) Indian man (2): Bilkul. (Very true.) Prabhupāda: To, dekhiye abhi to hum . . . (So you see, now we . . .) We have got buses. We have got buses—two, three. Any number of. It is very simple method, that we combine together, Indian and foreigners. Go in buses. Kahi bhi baithe. Kahi bhi baithe. (You may sit anywhere. You may sit anywhere.) Indian man (2): Bhagawan sarbatra hai, sab uska hi seba karna hai. (God is present everywhere, we all are supposed to serve Him.) Prabhupāda: Bhagwan ka murti hai. Seva puja hua, bhog hua, sabko prasad dijiye. Bas dekhiye keya hua. Yeh log to majood hai, aap log kuch le aiye, abhi kam suru hoga. (We have a Diety of the Lord. Worship and service will happen, bhoga offering will be done, distribute prasada to all. Then you see what happens. These people are already present here, you bring some people, we will begin the work now.) Indian man (2): Karenge maharaj. (We will do it Mahārāja.) Prabhupāda: Koi mushkil nahi. (It's not at all difficult.) Indian man (2): Nahi karte hai. Bangalore ate hai, jitna ho sakte hai, hum log bhi karte hai. (Yes let's do it. Let's go to Bangalore, as much as possible, we will also try to do.) Prabhupāda: Now it should be organized movement. This is simply . . . Indian man (2): Aap bhi ek dafa Bangalore ane ki kripa kariye. (You also please visit Bangalore once.) Prabhupāda: Ha, jaroor jayenge. (Of course, I will go.) Indian man (2): You must also come in Bangalore once. Then it will be all . . . Prabhupāda: Iska. (Regarding this issue) Immediately think over that these Europeans, Americans are there. Now take up the association of another, at least one dozen . . . (indistinct) . . . Indians, and let us go together, gao to gao (village to village) . . . what do you think about it? Indian man (2): Bas achha hi hoga, Bhagwan ka prachar hoga. Sab jaga nam kirtan hoga. (It will be good, God's preaching will happen. Everywhere there will be nama kirtana .) Yaśodānandana: We could go from Madras . . . Prabhupāda: Anywhere. Indian man (2): Anywhere. Any village. All the villages . . . Prabhupāda: You start from anywhere and go anywhere and sit down and chant. Indian man (2): Sab bhoomi ko . . . (All the land . . .) *Prabhupāda: In India, Bhārata*-bhūmi jaha hari-kīrtana sunega, (In India, land of Bharata, whenever people will here hari kirtana ,) thousands will come. That is India. You won't have to advertise that, Indian man (2): No, rom rom me hai. (No, it's in every pore.) *Prabhupāda: "There is hari*-kīrtana . Come." No. As soon as you begin, immediately thousands. As soon as there will be sugar grain, immediately ants will come. Indian man (2): Ants will come. Prabhupāda: It is like that. This is a fact. Indian man (3): : Correct, correct. Hundred per cent correct. Bas jaha mridang baja sab log aa jayenge kirtan karte. (As soon as the sound of mrdanga will be heard, all the people will come to take part in kirtana .) Prabhupāda: Ye jo Bharat bhumi me janma hota hai. (When one takes birth in the land of Bharata.) Indian man (2): Bilkul. (Very true.) Prabhupāda: Ye Bhagawat me hai aap to jante hai, Debta log prarthana karte ki kuch humara punna agar rahe geya to humko Bharat me janme. (This is in Bhagavat , you might be knowing, demigods are praying that if we have some pious credit left then let us take birth in the land of Bharata.) Indian man (2): Bharat me janma de. Bharat ke to rom rom me Bhagwan hai, usme keya. (Let us take birth in Bharata. In every particle of Bharata, God consciousness is there—there's nothing strange in it.) Indian man (3): : Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā . Prabhupāda: Iska bandobast kijiye. (Please make arrangements for this.) Immediately. Just get one dozen good—I mean, good or bad, it doesn't matter—who is ready to work for this purpose. And our men are ready. Our buses are ready. So let us go. There is no question of selecting place. Anywhere. Anywhere. Indian man (3): : Any place, anywhere, all the places. Prabhupāda: You go and find out some good place for camping and begin kīrtana . Get down from the bus and begin kīrtana . Then all friends will come immediately. They will offer shelter, they will offer food—everything. Indian man (2): Ha yeh to Bharat ki parampara, chali ati hai sadi se. (Yes this is the tradition of Bharata, going on for ages.) Prabhupāda: One thing is that their difficulty is language. Indians are there, they can speak on the local language. Indian man (2): They can explain everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore wanted. Indian man (2): Swamiji Bhagwan ki seba ke liye to hum log aye hai chinta nahi. (Swamiji, we have come for the service of the Lord, you please don't worry.) Indian man (3): : Chinta kahe ko hai? (Why there will be worry?) Indian man (2): Swamiji to sabka leader hai. (Swamiji will be the leader for all.) Indian man (3): : (indistinct) . . . Tirupati me jake, Tirupati me Balaji ka darshan, Padmavati ka darshan, oha sare jake, Bhagwan ka darshan le karke, oha bhi bhajan our kirtan karke . . . (. . . (indistinct) . . . going to Tirupati, taking darshan of Balaji there and taking darshan of Padmavati, going there and taking darshan of their Lordships, doing bhajan and kirtan there . . .) Yaśomatīnandana: In Vaikuṇṭha Ekādaśī. In Shri Rangam they have this giant festival every year, the biggest festival in India. It's Vaikuṇṭha ekādaśī in December. Indian man (2): Last December we went there. *Yaśomatīnandana: Very big. November*-December is a very good time. Indian man (2): Apni Ranga Ji dekhechen? (Have you taken darshan of Ranganath?) Prabhapuda: Na. (No.) *Yaśomatīnandana: Kanchi*-puram. Baradrāj. Indian man (2): From here. Sidha south pura. (Straight to all in the South) . . . (indistinct) . . . up to Cape Comorin. Yaśomatīnandana: Ahobila, Tirupati Indian man (3): : Yes, all of them, all of them. Yaśomatīnandana: He knows all the places . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): This is the original birth, Shri Rangam. Prabhupāda: Now with Suraji's cooperation make a program. *Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, we will do like that. November*-December will be very suitable time. Then in January, the Kumbha-melā, we will try to organize something big there also. January, Allahabad, Kumbha-melā Prabhupāda: 26 aadmi . . . (26 people) . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): Hum log gaye the pura south India . . . (We had gone to the whole south India . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): Inko bhi le jayenge sab. Karenge , prachar. (Will take him also with us. Will preach.) (pause) Indian man (2): Bas aap ki ashirbad hum log leke chalenge. Sab achha hoga. (We will go ahead with your blessings, Everything will be good.) (pause) Prabhupāda: That's all. Stop now. Harikeśa: I was just going to say you should take massage now. Prabhupāda: Ha? Harikeśa: I was just going to say it's time for massage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Can I tell you about the bank? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Punjab National Bank is down the street, and we have our temple account there. Prabhupāda: Oh, Punjab National Bank is there. That's all right. Harikeśa: So how much do you want to deposit? Prabhupāda: That I have to count. Harikeśa: So we can do it any time. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Harikeśa: And before you arrange this Kumbha*-melā—it's very cold there. Prabhupāda: Don't talk now. Harikeśa: Okay. (long pause) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Everything is going on. Wood carving, cement lay, painting, marble polishing. The yajña . Prabhupāda: If we would have remained there . . . these people are coming. How they could see? . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Still, it would have been very quiet. Prabhupāda: We are not . . . (indistinct) . . . besides that, we don't want quietness. We want how many are . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Jaya . If you wanted quietness, you could have stayed in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Harikeśa: Speak loudly. Hari-śauri: It's very noisy. Mahāṁśa: This is Dr. Ghosh. This is Visukeran Agarwal, one of our very close friends in Hyderabad. He's a very close friend in Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: I think I have seen you. Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Apni Dr. Ghosh? (Are you Dr. Ghosh?) Dr. Ghosh: Ami Dr. Ghosh, bohudin Europe chilam. Tarpore Gurur adeshe amra jongole ekta gram sristi korechi paharer upore. Sekhane athash bochor achi. Ta apnar somosto je byapar amar jana ache. To apnader upolokkhe ekta prokando jaiga okhane, aaj mane chomotkar paharer upore, khub nam kora, eni janen, Kodaikanal. Kodaikanal er kache. Okhane sob jaiga dhore . . . (indistinct) . . . ponchas, ponchas kilometer er modhhe. Khub boro jongoler modhhe amra somosto gram toiri korchi. Sekhane amader upasonar dorkar, apni jodi ektu pododhuli den tahole amader dos hazar loker upokar hoye jai. (Yes I am Dr. Ghosh. I stayed in Europe for many days. Then by the order of my guru we made a village in the forest at the top of the hill. Staying there for twenty eight years. I am aware of all your activities. For your sake I have selected a big place there, at the top of the hill, very beautiful. It's a famous spot, he knows, Kodaikanal. It's near to Kodaikanal. There holding the lands . . . (indistinct) . . . fifty, within fifty kilometers. We have made villages within a very big forest. We need to do some activity of worship there, if we can get the dust of your feet there then it will be of great benefit for the ten thousand people who are residing at that place.) Prabhupāda: Nischoi jabo. (Surely I will go.) Dr. Ghosh: Apni ese . . . apnader ei sob lok joner jonne ami ekta jaiga toiri korechi. Jara, era ja kaaj korche, boddo gorom. Sekhane chomotkar thanda, chiro bosonto. Kak nei, sap nei. (Once you go . . . I have made a place there for all of your people. These people, the work that they are doing, here it is too hot. The climate there is very cool, eternal spring. No crows, no snakes even.) Prabhupāda: Ekhan theke koto dur? (How far it is from here?) Dr. Ghosh: Kachei ekhan theke. Ami to ekhane aat din apnar jonne bose achi. (It's not very far. I am waiting here for you for eight days.) Prabhupāda: Oh! Besh korechen. (Oh, you have done it good.) Dr. Ghosh: (laughing) Ha ha . . . aat din, eni janen. Aat din bose achi, apnar ektu . . . amar naam ache prithibite. Ami mane Paris theke amar . . . (Ha ha . . . eight days, he knows. For eight days I am staying here, just for your little . . . I have a good reputation all over the world, from Paris mine . . .) Prabhupāda: Puro naam ki? (What's your full name?) Dr. Ghosh: Hiranmoy Ghosh Singho. Amra Jessore er lok. Amader pitamoho ra sob Jessore er raja chilo. Sei sob gachhe . . . Singha, sei jonne amader boro cheler naam er pichone ekta Singha thake, kenona amra khotriyo. Ta ami bohu kal bilete chilam. Amar satero bochor bilete theke. Desh swadhin hobar pore amra asi. (Hiranmoy Ghosh Singho. We are from Jessore. Our ancestors were the kings of Jessore. All those are gone now . . . Singha, for that reason the eldest son in our family carries the title "Singha" (Lion), because we are ksatriya . But I stayed overseas for many years. I stayed in foreign countries for seventeen years. After India got independence we came back.) Prabhupāda: Kothai chilen? (Where did you stay?) Dr. Ghosh: Besirbhag somoi France e chilam. Ami daktari MD France theke ni ebong Vienar theke ni. Nea amar Europe e khub boro posar chilo. Jokhon desh swadhin holo, tokhon Sri Aurobindo amader guide chilen. To Jawaharlal Nehru amake deke anen. To dekhlam sob pagoler byapar. Aurobindo bollen, tumi o sober modhhe miso na. Tomar ja kaj seta jongol, gorib lokder songe. To khuje khuje ekta jongol ber kore sekhanei bose achhi athash bochor. Amar boyesh satattor. (Most of the time I stayed in France. I took my MD in Medical from France and Vienna. After that I had a very good practice in Europe. When India got independence, at that time Sri Aurobindo was our guide. Jawaharlal Nehru then called me here. After coming I realized that these were all insanity. Aurobindo told us not to get involved with those people. He said that your job will be in the forest, with poor people. After searching a lot we found out a forest and stationed there for twenty eight years. Now I am seventy seven years old.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . jokhon Gandhir assistant ra sob jail e jai . . . (. . . (indistinct) . . . when all the assistants of Gandhi were going to jail . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Ha. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Onek bar approach korechilo, apni asun. I refused, na na. (They approached me many times, please come and join us. But I refused, no no.) Dr. Ghosh: Sunun amar okhane khub Hari sankirtan hoi, aar amra Joidev, amar stri khub boro songit, khub namkora, biswo bikhyato. Ta amra sob bose achi apnar pododhulir jonne. (Listen, we perform regular Hari sankirtana there at my place and we also recite Jaydeva (a poet), my wife is a big singer, very reputed, famous all over the world. So we all are waiting there for the dust of your feet.) Jokhon e bolben jabo. (I will go whenever you ask me to go.): Prabhupāda: Dr. Ghosh: Ami toiri, apnake ghare, mane Honumaner moton apnake nea jete raji achhi, ek jhape. (laughter) (I am ready, like Hanuman I will carry you in my shoulder and reach there with a big leap.) (laughter)) Prabhupāda: Ekhane 5- 7 din . . . (indistinct) (Here 5 to 7 days . . . (indistinct)) Dr. Ghosh: Ekhan theke kache. Apni . . . apni jedin . . . sunun apnar jonne ami ekhane, eni janen dos din bose achi. Kal rattir bela apnaked dekhlam boro bhir. (It's not far from this place. When you . . . when you . . . see he knows I am sitting here for ten days. I saw you yesterday night but it was heavily crowded.) Prabhupāda: After this function we can go there. Dr. Ghosh: And he knows about Kodaikanal. It's a very wonderful place. Prabhupāda: I shall go there. Mahāṁśa: There are very, very big schools there. Dr. Ghosh: Tahole ki hobe janen, apnar modhhe theke ekta hole por amar mone hoi je sob neche jabe. Aar amader barite to nach gan cholchei saradin. Apni dekhun ekbar. Amra boro gorib, ei . . . (indistinct) . . . ese jan. Amra chaoar, matir ghore thaki. (You know what will happen then, if one program can be done there then I think everyone will take part in dancing. And in our home there are singing and dancing going on throughout the day. You please consider my request once. We are very poor . . . (indistinct) . . . please come, we stay in thatched mud hut.) Prabhupāda: Amar cheye adham ke, ami ei movement start korechilam challish taka dea. (Who is poorer than me, I began this movement with just forty rupees.) Dr. Ghosh: Ta to jani. Sob amar . . . apnake ami onusoron korchi onek bochor dhore. 1966 sal thekei amar mon apnar payer upore. Ta apni se jonne bhabben na. Se sob ja bolbar . . . ami je , apni janen je ami apnar khub boro bhokto. (I know that. Everything I . . . I have been following you for many years now, from 1966 only my mind is residing on your feet. You please don't worry about that. Whatever is to be said . . . I am, you please know that I am a big devotee of you.) *Prabhupāda: Ei jinish tar secret hochhe, yea (The secret of this thing is that,) tesam satata*-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam ( BG 10.10)) Dr. Ghosh: Amar kan ta ektu kala hoye gachhe. Satattor bochor boyesh amaro. Apnar theke ami matro char bochorer . . . (I am becoming little deaf, my age is seventy seven now, I am only four years . . . than you.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ghosh: Ta apnake seba korbar jonne bose achi. Keno amar jonne apni . . . (So I am waiting here just to serve you. Why for me you . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ghosh: Amake sokkole jane. India te ami, amar . . . (Everyone knows me. In India, my . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Mahāṁśa: Ha ha ha, I told . . . Dr. Ghosh: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Amar haat khub bhalo. Onek, enara sob jane. Mane ektu seba kore gele, mane boro boro byadhi sob, amar okhane bhir hoye jai loker. Ta apnake pabo bole, ami kothao jai na. Jei sunlam je apni aschen , ami tara tari ekhane ese bose achi. Apnar kacha kachi e bose thaki. (I am, mine . . . I am expert in that. All these people knows. Means I try to serve, all chronic diseases, people gathers in great number at my place. But only to see you I came. I don't go anywhere. The moment I heard that you are coming, I came hurriedly here and was waiting for you. I remain seated near you only.) Prabhupāda: Apnar . . . (Your . . .) Dr. Ghosh: E sob amar patient, era sokole amake chene. Ta ami bollam, baba amake, ekhan theke nore ami, jotokhhon na Prabhupāda aschen totokkhon. Sei jonne 29 tarikhe. Ta apni jedin jaben, oder sob bondobosto kore bolun. Sei din aponar jonne ami niche . . . (All these people are my patients, they all know me. I said to them, let me, I am not going to move anywhere till the time Prabhupāda is coming. For that reason since 29th. So when you are planning to go, tell them (your disciples) to make arrangements. That day I will be there below . . .) Prabhupāda: Ora je dine bolbe, ami se dine jabo. (When they (my disciples) will select a date, I will go that day.) Dr. Ghosh: Santite cholun. Ta apko to malum hai ke e sob jaiga . . . (indistinct) . . . apnar Gokuler moton lagbe. Okhane amra dos hazar gorib lok achi. Apni jodi ektu pododhuli den tahole amader oi nach gan bhalo . . . (Plan peacefully and come. You know very well about all these places . . . (indistinct) . . . you will feel like you have come to Gokula. We, about ten thousand poor people are staying there. If you kindly visit then our singing and dancing will be very good . . .) Prabhupāda: Mohaprabhu hochhen patita pabon. (Mahāprabhu is the deliverer of fallen souls.) Dr. Ghosh: Patita pabon. (Deliverer of fallen souls.) *Prabhupāda: Narottam Das Thakurer gan, patita*-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . . . (Narottama Das Thakura sang patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Achha, patita pavana. Amra sei upokar, apni kale je bollen upokar karna. Oi tai amader mane aaj athash bochor dhore cholche. (Well, deliverer of fallen souls. You were telling about doing benevolent activity yesterday. We are doing that for twenty eight years.) *Prabhupāda: Mo*-sama patita prabhu nā pāibe āra (Prārthanā 39). This is the appeal made by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, "My Lord, Your incarnation is for very, very fallen souls, and You'll not find anyone who is more fallen than me. Therefore my claim is first." Dr. Ghosh: Ami jokhon gelam aj, bhasa jani na sokole jongli lok. Ora abar, British ra bolche tribe, criminal tribe era. Karon ora goru toru uthie nea jai, dekhche badorer moto fol dekhle jhulche khai. Oder okhane gele, amar athash bochor. Amar pach ta school ache. High school ekhon ekta. Oder mane employment er boddo kosto. Sejonne khete khute okhane ekta . . . (When I first went there, I didn't know their language, all were forest dwellers. Britishers told that these tribe, they are criminally inclined. They used to steal cows etc. and if they saw some fruits hanging in the tree, they will eat it. In that tribal's place I am staying for twenty eight years. I have five schools there. High school is only one now. Getting employment from them is very difficult. That's why after hard work, there one . . .) Prabhupāda: Na na, okhane te sob jaiga royeche, ora sob . . . (No no, there are enough place available, they all . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Jaiga to ami kinichi aste aste. (Gradually I have purchased land there.) Prabhupāda: Ami bolchi, sekhane sob nijeder kheti, nijeder kapor, nijeder . . . (What I want to mean, there they can have their own agricultural activities, own clothes, own . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Sob, tai to bolchi, apni ekbar padadhuli din, apnake dekhabo. (Everything. That's what I am saying, you just come once, I will show you.) Prabhupāda: Ha? (Yes?) Dr. Ghosh: Apni obak, apnar khub anondo hobe. Apni jeta korte bolchen amra seta korchi. (You will be astonished, you will become joyful. What you are telling to do, we are already doing that.) Prabhupāda: Besh. (Very nice.) Dr. Ghosh: Apni ekbar ese jan. Amader ekhane pododhuli din. Amra boddo gorib. Apnake nebar moton shokti amader nei. Ta holeo amra ghare kore apnake nea jabo. (You just come once. You put the dust of your feet there. We are very poor. We don't have enough capacity to take you. Still we will carry you on our shoulder and take you there.) Prabhupāda: Jar Bhogoban sohai ache se abar gorib kothai. (Whom Lord is favouring how can he be poor.) Dr. Ghosh: Ta to ache. Ta na hole apnar songe dekha hoto na. Ami morbar age, ek e , bollam je amake Bhakti . . . Prabhupādaer songe ekbar dekha korie dao. Kal ratti bela, sara din apnar chinta, sondhe bela chinta. Ekhane ese dekhlam. Eikhanei bose achi, oke jiggesh korun. Ami eikhanei bose achi. Apnake ektu seba korbo, ei amar sokh. Sei jonne bhalo tel thel baby oil sob rekhechi. Apnake ektukhani mane changa . . . dekhun amar shokti jothesto ache, apnar theke. (Yes the Lord's favour is there or else I would not be able to see you. Before I die, I told him to fulfil my one wish, let me just once grant a meeting with bhakti . . . Prabhupāda. Yesterday night and all the day, in the evening I was only thinking about you. After coming here I saw you. Since then I am sitting here, ask him I am sitting here since then. Just wanted to give you a little service, that is my wish. For that I have kept good quality oil, baby oil with me. I want to make you little rejuvenated . . . see I am having enough strength, stronger than you.) Prabhupāda: Ha apnar to built well. (Yes you are well built.) Dr. Ghosh: Khub bhalo, keno. (Yes I am well built, because . . .) Prabhupāda: You are healthy . . . Dr. Ghosh: Era sob jane, how I revived them. Ekhankar sob lok amake chene. Ami bollam je Prabhupāda asbe, ora amar okhane ase. Ami bollam Prabhupāda asbe ami okhane gea bosbo. Keno apnar kotha ami dekhun dosh bochor dhore moner moddhe ache. Apni ja ja korchen, somosto tarikh by tarikh apnar somosto bole debo. Amar tin jon ache jara apnar somosto boi, amar okhane tin copy kore ase. Amader librery ta khub boro hoye gachhe, okhane mane, apni okhane ese ekbar amader ektu upodesh din. (They know everything, how I revived them. All people here knows me. I told them Prabhupāda will come, they all come to my place. So I told them Prabhupāda will come, I will go there and wait for him. See for ten years I was thinking about you. Whatever you are doing, I can tell you date by date all the events. We have three persons who reads all your books. Three copies of all your books comes to my place. Our library has become very big. You please come there and give us some advice.) Prabhupāda: Ha ha, ami jabo. (Yes yes, I will go.) Dr. Ghosh: Jongoler moddhe ele dekhun jongoler mongol hoye jabe. (You come to the forest and see that there will be auspiciousness in the forest.) Prabhupāda: Aar apnar, sune ja ekhon bujhechi . . . (So your, what I have understood by hearing from you . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Are, apni obak, apni gea dekhen jodi. Tar moddhe jodi apni Bhagobot sonen aar amader somosto Joydev songskrito, apnar khub anondo hobe. Apnar ekhane ache songskrito, recording tape ta ana hoi ni. To apni okhane cholun, apnake sara din amra nachie debo. Apni dekhbo, amader nach e dekhben sudhu. Amader okhane dance school royechhe.Chaitanya Mohaprabhu e to prothome dance arombho koran. Chaitanya Mohaprabhur age keu dance koran ni. (You will become amazed, If you go there and see. Moreover if you hear *Bhāgavatam* there and all our Jayadev's sangskrit, you will be very pleased. We have Sanskrit here, but the recording tape I couldn't bring. You simply go there, we will make you dance the whole day. You will see, you will see our dance only. We have a dance school there. It was Caitanya Mahāprabhu who first inaugurated the dancing. Before him on one performed dancing.) Prabhupāda: Drama also. Dr. Ghosh: Ei jonne amra sob . . . (That's why we all . . .) Prabhupāda: He is the first beginner of . . . (indistinct) . . . Uni goverment scholar chilen. Russia tasia somosto jaigai, khub, mane govt pathai oke. (She was a government scholar. The Government sends him to Russia and many other places.) Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Ghosh: Ei jokhon khub boro boro lok, boigganik . . . (indistinct) . . . rani, queen Elizabeth. To oi ekmatro ache je gea bujhie dei, je nacher . . . saradin to amader okhane oi nacer e chorcha, ganer chorcha, sob bhorti. Apni amar okhane ja songskrito sunben, apni kokhhono eto bhalo songskrito sonen ni. Eto poriskar. Amar Europe Amerikar jonne kori. Ora onek ase , amader chatrora sob bohu dur theke ase. Germany theke, Sweden theke. To apni ekbar gea pododhuli dea amader bachan. Ta apnar oi ek pododhulite amra aro lafie cholbo. Apni onumoti kore din, apni bole din. (When some big personalities, scientists . . . (indistinct) . . . queens, Queen Elizabeth. So she is the only one who goes and make them understand, this dancing . . . at our place throughout the day there are the practice of singing and dancing, all occupied. The Sanskrit that you will listen at my place, you haven't heard such Sanskrit pronunciation ever. So clear. We do this for Europe and America. Many from those places comes, many of our students comes from very far away places. From Germany, Sweden. You kindly come once and save us by putting the dust of your feet there. By just your one visit we will be highly encouraged. You grant your permission, you instruct them.) Prabhupāda: Apnar chele pule? (Do you have any children?) Dr. Ghosh: Amar ek chele bilete. Se BBC te kaj kore. Broadcasting. Or ekta nijer feature program ache - Question of faith. Se o khub bhokto. Se BBC te robibar 10:30 er somoi or ekta TV program thake. To okhane, okhane thake. Se sonnasi. Se bea tha kore ni. . . . (indistinct) . . . aar ei stri, amar jokhon haat pa bhenge jai. Amar ekta boro acciodent hoi. Amar haat pa nei. Sob lohar tukro tukro bose achhe. Aar ami ekta patient jokhon haspatale jachhilam, ekta gari dhakka mere fele dei . . . (indistinct) . . . to sei somoi uni Germanyr theke asen. Uni German noi, uni Bharotio. Germany te Indian government pathai, sekhanor jonno, amader Bharat natyam jake bole. Tarpore uni ese amar okhane, bolche tomar kach charbo na, tomar haat pa nei. To amake nea okhane gea amake chalie talie thik rakhe se. Aar amar to sara din kaj, gorib lokder kaj. Amra ekso teish jon lok nea arombho kori, 1948 sale. Ekhon amra dosh hazarer er besi lok, pach ta school. Or nijer o school achhe. Tateo ponchanno jon student, somosto bideshi. Tale ki hoi jibon amader bhoyanok kaje thakte hoi. (One of my son is staying overseas. He works in BBC. Broadcasting. He has his own feature program there, "Question of Faith". He is also a very good devotee. In BBC on Sunday 10:30 he has one TV program. So he stays there. He is a renunciate. He is not married . . . (indistinct) . . . and my wife, when I broke my hand and leg. I met with a big accident. I don't have my original hands and legs. Some iron pieces are inserted there. When I was going to a hospital with one of my patient, then one car hit me and threw me in the ground . . . (indistinct) . . . so at that time she came from Germany. She is not a German, she is Indian. Actually Indian government sent her to Germany, to teach dancing, what we call here Bharat natyam. After returning she came to my place. She said that she will not let me stay alone as I didn't have functional hands and legs. Then she took care of me and made me fit. I am to work for whole day, for poor people. We began with hundred and twenty three people in 1948. Now we are more than ten thousand people, five schools are there. She has one of her own school, there are fifty five student's in her school. All are foreigner. So in our life we are to remain busy with heavy workload.) Prabhupāda: Ha ha ha. (Yes, yes, yes.) *Dr. Ghosh: Aar amar boyesh to hoyei jachhe . . . (indistinct) . . . . tokhon jokhon sunlam je baba Prabhupāda aschen, tokhon mane no body can stop me now. Ta okeo likhechi Prabhupāda asben. To ekhane je apnader golmal. Ami oke nea aschilam apnake sonanor jonne. Somosto ostopate amader ekbar chomotkar, ostopath, puro Joydev songskrito, apni ekhane ese ekbar sonen. Amader e doya apnake kortei hobe. Amra jokhon eto seba korchi apnar jonne, apni ekbar payer dhulo din. Ekhon din thik kore din, ami sob bondo, je kore hok . . . (indistinct) . . . aar apnar sunun, ami to sob Jawaharlal Nehru bolun, somosto boro boro lok ami seba koerechi sob. Amar baritei sob ase. Indira Gandhi porjonto amar barite ese . . . aar apnar ekhane pododhulir jonne ami sob toiri kore bose achi, amake apnar payer dhulo ektu. Ami apnake, apni obak hoye jaben. Apni dekhben je apnar amader . . . ha ami to chole jabo porshu din sokalbela kalke Jonmastami kore. Amake adghonta ekdin, apnar somosto deho, ei Rolls-Royce gari apnar atto din choleche, oke ektu servicing dorkar. Apnar to dorkar nei, kintu apnake amader dorkar.To dekhun jodi Bhogoban kauke amar kache gari den, take jodi ami service na kori setao ekta pap. To apni jodi onumoti den, kichhu na, apni sudhu ektu suye thakben. Apni dekhun je Bhogoban kirokom chomotkar . . . (indistinct) . . . ami to ponchas bochor ei kaj korchi. Ponchas bochor. Ami . . . (indistinct) . . . 1947, 1927 e prothom MD, 2nd MD 31 e, Vienna. Tarpore dhorun ei ponchas sal dhore ei kaj e hochhe. Amar okhane sob, even Indira Gandhi thandi, ami jai na, ora amar okhane ese. Keno amar har, amra boli ostio pack. Har, muscle, ogulo, jegulo nurve gulo hochhe jhalie dei. Tate hoi ki dekhben apnar blood pressure thad presure sob sere jabe. (And my age is also increasing . . . (indistinct) . . . when I heard that Prabhupāda is coming, then you know no*-one can stop me now. I have written her also that Prabhupāda will come. But here in your place it's too disturbing. I was about to bring her so that you can hear. All our narration of Astapath, excellently done by us, Astapath, all Jayadev's Sanskrit, you go there are hear it once please. You must have to grant us this mercy. When we are serving you so much, you please visit there once. Now you schedule a date, I will arrange, by hook or by crook . . . (indistinct) . . . listen please, I have served all the big big personalities, like Jawharlal Nehru and others. They all come to my home. Even Indira Gandhi also came to my house . . . and for your visit I have made all arrangements, you please give us the dust of your feet there. I will show, you will be surprised. You will see that for you we . . . I will be leaving day after tomorrow morning after attending Janmastami festival tomorrow. Give me half an hour one day, all your body, your this body is like a Rolls-Royce car, it's running for so long, it needs little servicing. We know that you don't need that but we need you. So if God gives me someone's car and if I do not service it, that too is a sin. So if you kindly grant permission, it's nothing, you just have to lay down. You will see that how wonderfully God has . . . (indistinct) . . . I am doing this job for fifty years. Fifty years. I . . . (indistinct) . . . in 1947, no 1927 I got my first MD and second in 1931 at Vienna. Since then for last fifty years I am doing this job only. In my place everyone, even Indira Gandhi, I don't go to anybody's place, they come to me. Because on bone, we say ostio pack. Bone, muscle, all these and the nerves, I do rejuvenate them. As a result you will see, your blood pressure etc. all will be cured.) Prabhupāda: Ha apnar . . . (indistinct) . . . amar ei whole institute e ami ja bolbo ta hobe. Ami jodi morte boli, morbe. Ei je dictetorship, eta keno ora swikar korche? . . . (indistinct) . . . Uni ja bolchen eitai thik.Seta jodi hoi . . . (indistinct) (Yes your . . . (indistinct) . . . in my institute whatever I will say that is final. If I ask them to die, they will die. So this dictatorship, why are they accepting this? . . . (indistinct) . . . whatever he is saying that's actually correct. If that is the case . . . (indistinct) . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Amar o tai, apni ja bolchen tai thik. (Me too, whatever you are telling that's correct for me as well.) Prabhupāda: Seta jodi hoi, tahole to success hoye gelo. Ta na hole ekta . . . (indistinct) . . . Seta korte hole, . . . (indistinct) . . . yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā (SB 5.18.12) . . . (indistinct) . . . sudhu boktrita dea gele bipod . . . (indistinct) . . . Ta na hole loke dumre dumre dumre . . . (It it's so then success is achieved. Else some . . . (indistinct) . . . to do that . . . (indistinct) . . . Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā (SB 5.18.12) . . . (indistinct) . . . only to give lecture is dangerous . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise people will distort distort distort . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Amar o, ami jani seta. Amar opor apni dekhben bhoktir, nahole por oi jongoler moddhe jekhane athash sal thakchi. Nana rokom jongli, boro boro Ajogor sap nea amra bose achi. Kono bhoi nei. Kauke chini na. Sudhu gurur adesh. Jao tumi gea dekho, ora atto gorib amader. Ta apni dekhben je amader koto boro boro industry amra korchi. Hate toiri kora sob, amader oi jongoler lok sob toiri . . . (Mine also, I know that. You will see, devotion is on me, else in that forest I am staying for twenty eight years. There we are living with varities of forest dewellers, huge Pythons. We don't have any fear. We don't know anybody. Only the order of my guru —you go and stay there, they are so poor. You will be happy to see that we have made big big industries. All hand made things, those forest dewellers, they make all . . .) Prabhupāda: Hater e toiri, beshi kol kobjai na. (Handmade is good, don't use machines much.) Dr. Ghosh: Na na kolkobja noi. Ta holeo dekhun emon ekta somoi ese gache. (No no, not much machinery. Still you see such a time has come.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ghosh: Kol kobjar moddhe nei. Ta hole dekhun power na hole por chorka chole na. Tahole power station, nijeder station korte hoi ekta. Khub, apni dekhle, oi gobor dea e amra kori. (We are not into machines. Still you see without power the wheels don't move. In that case power station, we are to make our own power station then. Good if you see, we do it by using cow dung.) Prabhupāda: Self help. Dr. Ghosh: Ha? Gobor deai kori. Cow dung gas fas sob royeche . . . (indistinct) . . . aste aste. Emon kichu ekta birat byapar noi. Houar upai o nei. (What? We do it by cow dung. Cow dung gas is there . . . (indistinct) . . . gradually. It's not such a big thing. There is no scope also to make it big.) Prabhupāda: Na na, jinish ta hochhe, our life should be simplified. (No no, actually the thing is that our life should be simplified.) Dr. Ghosh: Absolutely. Prabhupāda: We shall not unnecessarily complication na. Dr. Ghosh: Amader to ekebare simple. Amra je bari ghor dor kori, sob chomotkar. Sokole bole khub bhalo, ekebare simple. Aar amra ekta gram korchi ekhon. (Ours are totally simple. The house that we make, all are wonderful. Everyone says those are very good, totally simple. Now we have made a village.) *Prabhupāda: Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya (BG 6.17). Dr. Ghosh: Minimum. Dignity bujhechen. (Minimun. Just a matter of dignity you see.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . find out this verse. *Devotee: Yukta*-ceṣṭasya karmaṇā ? *Prabhupāda: Where is Bhagavad*-gītā ? Dr. Ghosh: Apnar sob amar okhane ache. Ta apni ekdin kaj korun, ami ekhane apnar payer dhare bose thakbo, ami to norchi na. Ete ki ache. Apnar jodi ek ghonta somoi thake. Ami apnar jonne mane Amerika theke je, ekebare pobitro tel jeta hoi, mane jol, baby oil, baby der newborn baby der, rekhechi. Apnii ,amake ektu khani jodi . . . apni dekhben, amar tahole khub bhalo, amar khub bhalo haat. Apni bujhte parben. Aar apnar seba ami ektu korte chai morbar age. Dekhun parshod na thakle por, apnader ke bachie rakhbar moto lok nei. Amra sob apnar parshod sob. (All your books are there with me. You please do one thing, I will just sit beside your feet, I am not going to move anywhere. It's very simple. If you have one hour free time. From America I have arranged, totally sanctified oil and water, means water, baby oil, oil for newborn baby, I have kept with me. If you please just a little . . . you will see, I will feel good, my hands are very expert on this. You will realise. And before I die I wish to render some little service to you. See if associates are not there, no one is here to keep you alive. We all are your associates only.) Prabhupāda: Kripa kore amake rakhun.Din kotok kaj kori. (Please do protect me. Let me work for few more day's.) Dr. Ghosh: Dekhun parshod na thakle, Mohaprabhu Chaitanya sob, ora oke to, apnader sob rakhbar jonne prarthona korte hoi Bhogobaner kache. Dekhun apnar hochhe dos inchi pipe, amra hochhi one eighth inch pipe. Apnar je, je Bhogoban apnake or moddhe dea thele pathachhen, jara parshod tara to thik regulate kore rakhte hoi . . . (indistinct) . . . sei apni bhabun. Apni, ami jani, apnar kono chinta nei. (See, if associates are not there, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's all, for Him they, to keep you people alive prayrs are to be offered to the Lord. You are having a ten inch pipe, we are one eighth inch pipe. What your, what God is giving you, through you what God is pushing down, those who are the associates, they need to regulate the force . . . (indistinct) . . . so you please think over it. You, I know, you have nothing to worry about.) *Prabhupāda: Apni bolun, parshod bolte gele, kṛṣṇa*-varṇaṁ viṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam (SB 11.5.32), Parshadoi. (You say, to say about associates, kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam . Parshadoi , associates.) Dr. Ghosh: Eita eita eita amar khub bhalo lage. (This one I like very much.) *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa*-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgo upāṅgā pārṣadam yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Amra to parshoder upasona koe thaki. (We are the worshipper of the associates.) (chuckles) Dr. Ghosh: Na na, apni apni apni nijeke nije apni dekhen e ni, bhaben e ni. Amra jani apni ke. Parshoderai jane. Apni je bollen biswas koro. Ami jodi matha khureo jodi mori , ke aar biswas korbe? Apni bollen biswas koro, moro, more jabe. Era sob parshod. Apni jodi amake bolen, tumi more jao ekhane, ami more jabo. Sudhu apnar kothar jonne noi, kenona apni amra apnar parshod, apnake jibon dea apnake rakhte hoi. Ta na hole por monusso jatir upor kono . . . upai nei. Jekhan je Bhogobaner bikash, sekhane dekhben sob lok take bachie rakhbar jonne. (No no, you have not seen yourself, have not thought about it. We know who you are. Only associates knows. You told us to believe. If I, even if I try hard, who will believe me? You said—please keep faith. If you tell them to die, they will die. They are all associates. If you tell me, you die here, I will die. Not only for your words but because we are your associates, by sacrificing life you have to be protected. Otherwise on the human race nothing . . . no way. Were there is the manifestation of God, you will see many people sacrificing there to keep him alive.) *Prabhupāda: Bhagavaner upasona hoi sa*-parshod. (God's worship is done along with His associates.) Dr. Ghosh: Edike amar kan bhoyanok kala, tobuo apnar sob kotha ami sunchi. (Just see my ear is almost deaf and still I am able to hear all your words.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . Gopal. Go paal. (. . . (indistinct) . . . Gopal. Maintainer of the cow's.) Dr. Ghosh: Gopal oh. (Oh Gopal.) Prabhupāda: Mane jini Go ke palon koren. Tar parshod. Bhogobaner goru houa, o parshod chara hote pare na. Ei je Bhogoban emni kore alingon korche, e sadharon bachur? Do you think they are ordinary calves? (Means who maintains the cows. His associates. To become a cow of the Lord, without being an associate it's not possible. Here see how Lord is embracing, is it an ordinary calf? Do you think they are ordinary calves?) Mahāṁśa: To be embraced by Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: They are associates. They are associating with Lord as calf, as cow. Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ (BS 5.37). Nija-rūpa . Dr. Ghosh: Amar nijer rup dekheo bolben, Janama abadhi hamo rupo niharenu nayana na tiropito. Ei je ruper ekta khela cholche, lakho lakho yuga . . . (indistinct) . . . nu, tobu hiye juralu nayanu. Ei dekhun apnake dekhchi, aar kono dekhbar nei amar. Sob pash. Amra sob durer theke , kacher theke sob pash. Jonom jonom dhore dekhchi. (You are saying to see my own form, since birth I am seeing different forms but still my eyes are not satiated. That this game of form is going on, for millions of years . . . (indistinct) . . . by seeing you my eyes are satisfied.) *Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana, the calves, the cows, the trees, the land, the water—everyone, ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ . That is expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Cit-śakti . There are three energies: spiritual, material and marginal. So Vṛndāvana affairs means expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa . Sac-cid-ānanda. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Rasa , mellow. Everyone is trying to relish some mellow. Here in this material world we get family to taste some mellows. One kind of mellow is wife, one kind of mellow are children, one kind of mellow is the servants, one kind of mellow is the friends, one kind of mellow is the properties. They are all mellows, rasa . Unless there is some taste, why one should be hankering after all these things? Why one is hankering after some woman or some man or some friends or for children? One who has got no children, he's hankering after some child. He's expecting, "When I shall get a child?" The rasa . There is husband-wife rasa , but there is no rasa of the child. Therefore they are praying, "When we shall get a child?" So there is another rasa . So raso vai saḥ . He is the reservoir of rasas . So if we derive all the rasas from the Supreme, because He is the reservoir of rasas . . . *Mahāṁśa: Akhila*-rasāmṛta-sindhu . *Prabhupāda: Akhila*-rasāmṛta , yes. Akhila-rasāmṛta-sindhu . So you can have all the rasas , and that is the origin of bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu . In bhakti , that rasa , you become in the ocean of rasa . You're hankering after rasa . There is a Vedic injunction, raso vai saḥ labdhvānandi ānand ī. One who has got the rasa , labdhvānandi , then he gets the real ānanda . That ānanda-cinmaya-rasa expansion is Kṛṣṇa's calves, cows, gopī friends, cowherd boy friends, Nanda, Yaśodāmāyi, so many. So to be Kṛṣṇa conscious means to participate with these rasas. It is not dry. It is not dry, like, simply so 'ham , so'ham , finished. So 'ham , they do not know the meaning. So 'ham means I belong to the same rasa . I also eligible to enjoy the same rasa . But Kṛṣṇa is . . . (break) . . . and the calves, the cows are enjoying the rasa as predominated. Just like husband and wife, they are enjoying, both. But one is enjoying as the husband, predominator. The husband is forcefully dragging the wife. She's also . . . while she is dragged by force, she enjoys. That is another rasa. But there is rasa . Combined together it becomes rasa . Similarly, Kṛṣṇa does not enjoy this material. This material rasa is the perverted reflection of that cinmaya-rasa . So we have to get ourselves nil of all these material rasas , and we have to be situated in the cinmaya . Then our . . . ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Then our life is perfect. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Rasa is there. Here perverted reflection. The perverted reflection . . . my Guru Mahārāja used to say to taste milk in white, what is called, lime water. White lime water, it looks like milk. But it is not milk. It is different thing. Similarly, we are trying to taste the rasa of milk in lime water. Therefore we are baffled. Dr. Ghosh: That is true. Whole universe is rasa . Even in Mars they're trying to find humidity. What is humidity, rasa . Everything is moving on the rasa only. We are floating on rasa . Prabhupāda: Our aim of understanding this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not a sentiment. It is a great science, great science. Otherwise how we are writing so many books? If it was a dry . . . Dr. Ghosh: Nothing happens in dryness. *Prabhupāda: Why people are accepting our books? You'll be surprised, we are selling book to the extent of six lakhs of rupees per day. Daily. Daily we are selling six lakhs of rupees' worth all over the world. So people think philosophy, religion, dry subject matter. If it was dry subject matter, how they could purchase so many books? It is ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa . They are getting for the first time, here is real ānanda . Therefore they are appreciating. Everyone, learned circle, they are giving appreciation. In . . . (indistinct) . . . foreign circles. So, there was no such literature. It is the first time. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇaṁ vaiṣṇavānām . . . (SB 12.13.18). So unless they're really relishing some rasa, how they are purchasing? This is the first distribution of ānanda-cinmaya-rasa throughout the whole world, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So I am very happy that you are also very . . . (indistinct) . . . let us join together, we shall raise . . . Dr. Ghosh: We can consult and fix a date, what suits Prabhupāda best, then I will arrange for the rest at that end. Mahāṁśa: When are you leaving Hyderabad? Dr. Ghosh: I'm leaving just after . . . you see, I was leaving long ago, but he was coming. So I will leave 19th morning plane. That is the day after the Janmāṣṭamī tomorrow. Night, whatever festivity, I'll be here. I think there will be some saṅkīrtana also. After that, early morning, I'll catch the plane and go up to Madras, and there I shall fly again to my tila (my small hill top place). It is not very far, as you are thinking, but you know Kodaikanal is the, prithibir moddhe naki sobcheye bhalo jaiga, climatologically. Amar ichhe je amar ja kichu achhe apnar possessione dea, okhane era je kaj kormo korche gorome, majhe majhe gea ektu recharge. (Kodaikanal, supposedly it's the best place in the whole world, climatologically. I wish that whatever I have I will give those unto your possession, what these people are working here in such hot environment, they can visit there sometime to recharge.) Because they are recharging the battery of the urban line. But they also will be recharging that battery in a nice cosmic place. And that . . . Prabhupāda: Amader je rasa, our rasa, it can be tasted by the topmost intellectual man. (The rasa that we have, our rasa , it can be tasted by the topmost intellectual man.) Dr. Ghosh: Of course. Prabhupāda: And it can be tasted by the lowest . . . Dr. Ghosh: No intellect at all. I know that. *Prabhupāda: But why? Because this intellect, highest or lowest, that is in relationship with the body. But it is beyond the body. It is not . . . sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya (BG 14.26). It is beyond the three guṇas . The body is of the material guṇas—sattva , rajas , tamas . One man is good man, one man is passionate, one is foolish. Guṇa . Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo'sya . Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhunjante guṇān (BG 13.22)? (aside) Find out this. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhunjante . . . beginning with puruṣaḥ . Everything is explained, Bhagavad-gītā . *Dr. Ghosh: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is matchless. We are reading and re-reading, and every time we find much more, you see? Terrific. And you have put the simplest method—"As it is," as you say. Why complicate, tika this . . . that is why . . . you know, we can be safely called intellectuals. But, you know, we are tired of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ghosh: Tired. We cannot find anything. Neti neti vicāra te patra patra (sangskrit) . . . impossible. Then what do you get out of the life? The joy, rasa, apni je bollen, (The joy which you just have mentioned), that is the main substance. To get it you cannot get neti neti, Mohaprabhur ja hoyechilo . . . (indistinct) . . . (To get it you cannot get neti neti , what Mohaprabhu experienced . . . (indistinct) . . .) *Prabhupāda: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi (BG 13.22). (aside) Find out. Puruṣaḥ . Why you cannot find this verse? What you are . . . Mahāṁśa: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti , bhuñjante . . . *Prabhupāda: Tad guṇān. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi . You did not find? Dr. Ghosh: Eta apnar *Bhāgavatam* series na tinte volume? (Is this your *Bhāgavatam* series or just three volume?) *Prabhupāda: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Seventeen volumes. Seventeen. Dr. Ghosh: I have only two. Can I . . . is there any set available? I would like to buy the rest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: *Prabhupāda: Puruṣa , the living entity, he is now within the material energy. Prakṛti*-sthaḥ . Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho . . . *Mahāṁśa: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi . Prabhupāda: Stho hi . *Mahāṁśa: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . Prabhupāda: On account of his being in touch with the material energy, he has to suffer or enjoy the modes of material nature. Modes of material nature, and because, just like in your medical science one is suffering from a certain type of disease on account of his being infected by the similar virus or . . . what is called? Mahāṁśa: Virus. Prabhupāda: Ha? Mahāṁśa: Virus. Prabhupāda: Virus. Dr. Ghosh: Virus. Animate in, apnader theory ami porechi. (Virus. Animate in, I have read your theory.) Now we know even the inanimate is animate, but by virology only it is changing. All the unanimate subject is slowly being transformed into animate. We are all convinced the whole process is the same. It's a terrific science now, virology. Latest, we have discovered. I am also working on virology quite a bit for all the virus disease and all. And we can eliminate them by only vacuum. My whole cure, they call it miracle and all this nonsense, it is only creating a vacuum which automatically takes away. Prabhupāda: This virology will be complete . . . Dr. Ghosh: When we accept this. Prabhupāda: . . . when you accept this. Dr. Ghosh: I know. (laughs) And I have accepted long ago. Because I felt, as a sincere worker, medicine doesn't interest me. What interests me is the cure. My profession is to cure, not to study the medicines. That is the cure. *Prabhupāda: Here it is very clearly stated that kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). The virology, infection, kāraṇam , that is the kāraṇam . Kāraṇam guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu . Why there are varieties of life? One is very intelligent . . . Dr. Ghosh: You know also in Vedic sangit , Tamasa bahurupena bestitaha karma hetu na . . . (indistinct) . . . sukha dukhha samanwita (Sanskrit). Prabhupāda: Same thing. Dr. Ghosh: Same thing, no? Everything has light. Only it is in transformation by that formula, it is inanimate to animate. That is what is happening all around us. *Prabhupāda: So, if from . . . just like medical science . . . it is also a medical science. Bhavauṣadhi. It is . . . auṣadhi means medical science. This is bhavauṣadhi . By this treatment one becomes relieved from the material disease. Bhavauṣadhi . Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra*-mano-'bhirāmāt . But the medicine is so nice that it is pleasing to the ear and to the heart. The medicine pleasing to the ear? What is that. *Mahāṁśa: Hari*-nāma . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Ghosh: Apni amader okhane cholun, amader o khub bhalo naam . . . (indistinct) . . . amader Bangali dhoroner sob amra korechi, amader recording e ache sob. Apnake sonabo. Apni khub anando paben. Amader ek family ache Mohana Nanda, tini Deoghar e thaken, tini ekhane ese amader record korie jan. Aar amar stri to saradin naach neai ache, Bhogobaner nach. Apnar khub bhalo lagbe, apni ektu. Aram noi, ekebare somadhir moddhe apni ese jaben. Cholun na, oder hukum kor din. (You please come to our place, we also have very good nama . . . (indistinct) . . . we have made it in Bengali style, in our recording everything is there. We will play for you. You will be very happy. We have one family named Mohana Nanda, he stays in Deoghar, he comes here and makes the recording. And my wife is busy all day with her dancing, for God. You will feel very happy, you please. Not only feel comfort, you will reach samadhi stage there. Please instruct them, let's go.) Prabhupāda: Jedin ora fix up korbe. (When they will fix up the date?) Dr. Ghosh: Ha? (What?) Prabhupāda: Ora jedin fix up korbe. (When they will fix up the date?) Dr. Ghosh: Ha oi je hukum. (Yes that is called order.) We decide a date, and take . . . not too . . . we have no means for having too many people, but about dozen people, or ten people can come. And they will have all facility. We can arrange a station wagon and everything there. You have to come up to Kodaikanal Road Station. And if you like we shall arrange for your departure from Madras . . . (indistinct) . . . Ami sathe. (I will be with you.) We will come with you. Apni . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda ke rekhe asben. We will accompany you all the way. Aapko aur Surana shab ko bol denge, aap dono . . . (indistinct) . . . le jayenge. Tahole choli. Apnake aar, apnake aar . . . apni ekdin hukum korun, apnar seba tahole okhanei apnake korbo. (I will accompany you. We will come with you. You . . . (indistinct) . . . take Prabhupāda to stay there. We will accompany you all the way. I will intimate you and Mr. Surana, you two . . . (indistinct) . . . will take you. Goodbye then. Your, your . . . you just order one day. Your service, I will serve you there then.) Prabhupāda: Ha ha. (Yes yes.) Dr. Ghosh: When you come there. Ekhane boddo golmal. (It's very noisy here.) I'll get everything ready. It is settled you are coming at there earliest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ghosh: Apni bole din kobe. (You tell me the date.) Prabhupāda: When they'll make a program, conveniently, I shall go. Dr. Ghosh: Ami, dekhiye. (I, you see.) I'm leaving on 29th morning. If you can give me a word by tomorrow evening. Not 29th; 19th. Today is 17th. Prabhupāda: They cannot decide so soon. Dr. Ghosh: : Janmāṣṭamīr pore? (After Janmāṣṭamī?) Prabhupāda: Janmāṣṭamī pore. (Yes after Janmāṣṭamī.) Dr. Ghosh: Apnar vyas pujar . . . (Your vyasa puja's . . .) Prabhupāda: Another program is that we are going that side during . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ghosh: Kanyakumari te jaben naki? Odike jaben naki? (Will you go to Kanyakumari? Will you go in that direction?) Prabhupāda: Ha. (Yes.) Dr. Ghosh: To cholun amra songe jabo. Amader barir kachei to. Palni te asun. Palni, Kentur khub bhalo area. Kumar. (Well we will also go with you then. It's near to our home. You go to Palni. Palni, Kentur, very good places, Kumar also.) So we have to see . . . (indistinct) . . . (background comments by devotees) You also send this. Mahāṁśa: Yes, I have to take little time. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Please come in. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda ki jaya . Prabhupāda: Give them little prasādam . Dr. Ghosh: Oder ekta din thik korte bole din. (Please tell them to fix a date.) Prabhupāda: Ha ora korlei ami chole jabo. (Yes once they fix a date I will go.) Gurukṛpā: He's a life member from Bangalore. He was one of our first members in South India. Prabhupāda: I saw you? Give them prasādam . Indian man: Last night at the airport. Prabhupāda: Give them prasādam . Devotee: They had prasādam . Prabhupāda: Aap idhar ka hi rehne wale hai? From Bangalore? (Do you stay here? Or from Bangalore?) Indian man (2): Hum Bangalore rehne wale hai. Aap bahut uttam kar rahe hai. Bhagawan ka prachar kar rahe hai. (I stay at Bangalore. You are doing a very noble job. You are preaching about God.) Prabhupāda: Iske bina to kuch janna nahi hai. (I don't know anything else than this.) Indian man (2): Ji Maharaj? (Yes Mahārāja?) Prabhupāda: *Without bhagavad*-bhakti , this so-called advancement of civilization is simply decorating the dead body. Indian man (2): Correct. Cent percent correct. Prabhupāda: What is the use of decorating the dead body? Indian man (2): Correct. Yes. We must decorate real . . . *Prabhupāda: And this body is . . . either dead or alive, Bhagavad*-gītā condemns: gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ (BG 2.11). So these rascals are interested with this body, and they're proud of their advancement of education. And Bhagavad-gītā says nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . So they are passing as great scientists, philosophers, politicians, philanthropists, but all apaṇḍitāḥ. Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . That means apaṇḍita . Indian man (3): : Apnar doya na hole ki kore hobe mosai? (Unless your mercy is there how can it be?) Prabhupāda: Ami to doya korbar jonne to sara duniya ghure berachi. (I am travelling all over the world to give mercy.) Indian man (3): : Ei to bolchi dhonnobad dilum apnake, khub beshi. (That's what I am saying, I am thanking you for that, a lot of thanks.) (laughter) *Prabhupāda: And the first thing of Bhagavad*-gītā lesson is that aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān (BG 2.11): "You are talking like a learned man, but you are rascal." Apaṇḍitaḥ . One who is not educated, he's a rascal. So He's indirectly saying: "This kind of lamentation is not for the paṇḍita . It is for the rascal." So whole world is interested with this body, and Bhagavad-gītā's teaching begins condemning the concept of body. Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Nobody knows this. And they are very learned scholars in Bhagavad-gītā . Indian man (3): : Ha ha, apnar doya holei to learned bola jai, nahole ki kore bola jai? (When you shower your mercy then one can become learned, otherwise how can one be said as learned?) *Prabhupāda: All these rascals, they're claiming to be learned scholar of Bhagavad*-gītā . Indian man (2): Anyhow, humlog, We are lucky souls, that we are surrendered souls. (Anyhow, we, we are lucky souls, that we are surrendered souls.) Prabhupāda: Ha, humko sab miljhul karke, ye jo andolon hai isko achhi tara se samhalna. (Yes, we all will come together and this movement that is going on, we have to maintain it nicely.) Indian man (2): Correct. Prabhupāda: Yeh to akele . . . (I am alone . . .) Indian man (2): Nahi nahi Bhagwan ka ichha hai , sab ka duty hai . . . (No no, It's the Lord's will, all of us have responsibility . . .) Prabhupāda: Whatever is done, it is by single man's effort. If all our actually leaders, they take up, then India will be glorified. They'll feel . . . yes, they're expecting. Outside India, people, they expect that there is something better knowledge in India. Therefore as soon as some svāmīs or yogī goes there, they come. But they cheat. Indian man (2): Many have come to cheat. Prabhupāda: These rascals, I shall say that, sir, they do not know anything, and they go there for teaching yoga . And they are bogus. Indian man (2): Bogus, bogus. So many bogus people are going. Prabhupāda: They do not know what is yoga . Indian man (2): They do not know what is what. What that is truth. They don't know. Prabhupāda: And they get cheap money and women and that's all. That is their business. Indian man (2): Aap Bharat ko ashirbad kariye. Iha Bhagabat dharma, Sanatan dharma ka prachar khub beshi hoye. (You shower your blessings upon India. Let the Bhagavad dharma , Sanatan dharma be spread extensively here.) Prabhupāda: Aap log sab . . . (indistinct) . . . join kijiye, dekhye na abhi Bharat ka chehara badal jayega. (You all . . . (indistinct) . . . you join this movement, just see the face of India will change.) Indian man (2): Badal jaye to achhi bat hai. Abhi to . . . (If it get's changed then it will be very good. But now . . .) Prabhupāda: Jaroor jayega. (Surely it will change.) Indian man (2): Ha, jaroor jayega. (Yes, it will surely change.) Prabhupāda: Kyun ki Bharat abhi bhoola nahi. (Because India still haven't forgotten.) Indian man (2): Nahi. Yeh to Bhagawan ka bhoomi hai. (Yes. This is the land of the Lord.) Prabhupāda: Yeh jabardasti isko bhulaya ja raha hai. (Now people are made to forget forcibly.) Indian man (2): Haan, Bhagwan ka bhumi hai. Yeh to politician log ghuma rahe hai isko. (laughs) Bhagwan ka bhumi hai ye. (Yes, this is the land of the Lord. Only these politician's are making things distorted. (laughs) This is the land of the Lord.) Prabhupāda: To ab ek. . . (indistinct) . . . karke Hari kirtna kijiye. Gao gao me. (So you do one thing . . . (indistinct) . . . perform Hari kirtana . Village to village.) Indian man (2): Apne paas bhi Thakur bari hai, swami Yashonand dekha hai . . . (indistinct) . . . kuch dharam hai. (At my place also there is a temple, Swami Yashonand have seen . . . (indistinct) . . . we are also religious.) *Gurukṛpā: He has a temple. The whole third floor of his house is a temple. He has Sītā*-Rāma, Kṛṣṇa, Gopāla. He has big temple. They have saṅkīrtana every night. Every morning and night. Indian man (2): Hamare Guruji to Vrindaban ke, aap jante hai. Rang Ji ke bari bagiche me rehte the. Jagad Guru swami Raghunath acharya. Aap to jante hai, Vrindaban gaye hai aap bhi. (My guru is from Vṛndāvana, you might be knowing. He stays in the big garden of Rang Ji. His name is Jagad Guru Swami Raghunath Acarya.) Prabhupāda: Mai to Vrindaban me hi raha. Abhi Radharani humko bhagaya. (I was staying in Vṛndāvana only. Then Radharani made me run.) Indian man (2): Bhaga diya! Radharani ka prachar karna hai to bhagayega ji. (Oh she made you run! Of course Radharani will make you run to preach about her.) (laughter) Prabhupāda: Ho giya. (Now it's done.) Indian man (2): Bhag giya tab hi to achha hua. Aab to lakho ka uddhar hoga, lakho ka. Uha baithe rehte tab to lakho ka nahi hota. Yaha to lakho ka uddhar hoga. Sare dunia ka ho raha hai. (You ran away then only such a good thing have happened. Now millions will be saved, millions. Had you been sitting there then millions could not have been saved. Now millions will be saved. It's happening all over the world.) Prabhupāda: Isiliye to, uo Radharani bhaga bhi deta hai. (That's why I am saying, sometime Radharani can make you run also.) Indian man (2): Bilkul bilkul. Mahatma ka shrap bhi asirvad hota hai. Radharani to prem hai. Uo to Ma hai. Ma to bete ko achha ke liye bhejta hai. Bahut sundar karya ho raha hai. Humko to bahut santosh hai, bara anand hai. (Of course, of course. The curse of a saintly person is actually a blessing. Radharani is love. She is the mother. For the benefit of the son, the mother sends her son away. Now such wonderful activities are going on. I am highly satisfied, very happy.) Gurukṛpā: That Raṅganātha temple is that temple where they do not allow us in. So Sampat Kumar and all of these paṇḍitas , they will sign one letter trying to request them, also with the Purī people, to request them to let us in. While they are all here they will do that. Also Sampat Kumar was thinking that in November and December in South India the weather is nice because the rainy season is finished, and it would be a very good time to go and visit many of the temples. He personally knows many people in all the big temples: Shri Rangam, Kañcipuram, Mahabalipuram, Tirupati. They could arrange for receptions and programs. *Prabhupāda: Hum abhi tak Bharat varsh ka divya bhumi ka dekha nahi. Hum ghar chor kar ke Vrindavan me ake baith gaya. Fir Vrindavan se Amerika chala gaya. (Until now I haven't totally seen the divine land of Bhārata*-varṣa. After leaving home I went to Vṛndāvana and was sitting there. Then from Vṛndāvana I went to America.) Indian man (2): Amerika chala gaya. (He went to America.) Indian man (3): : Vrindavan me to . . . (indistinct) . . . (In Vrindavan . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian man (2): Amerika jana nahi to agga hua, yea sab jaga prachar karne ke liye bhej diya . . . (There was order to go to America, he was sent to preach all over the world . . .) Indian man (3): : . . . (indistinct) sanskrit . . . Indian man (2): Amrit hai Bhagwan, amrit . . . (God is nectar, nectar . . .) Indian man (3): : . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): Yeh to zahar hai dunia . . . (indistinct) . . . dunia is a poison. God is amritam.. . . (indistinct) . . . Just opposite na. Das koti ashirbad kariye aap ke charno ki . . . (This world is poison . . . (indistinct) . . . world is poison. God is nectar . . . (indistinct) . . . they are just opposite. Please bless me ten million times with the dust of your feet . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . iska bandobast karie. (. . . (indistinct) . . . please arrange for this.) Indian man (2): Ji. Oh to ho raha hai. Yes sab keya ho raha hai Maharaj? Ye to sab bandobast ho raha hai, nahi. (Yes sir. That is already happening. What all this activities are meant for Mahārāja? All these are that arrangement only.) Prabhupāda: Lekin yeh to mushkil hai, to iha do char mahina lega na, Government . . . (But there is difficulty, if it takes few months here then government . . .) Indian man (2): Government ka thoda abhi policy, aap ashirbad karie to . . . (The policy of the government now somewhat unfavorable, if you shower your blessings then . . .) Prabhupāda: Is waje se, isliye, jab tak Bharat ke log . . . (indistinct) . . . (That's why, until the people of India . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian man (2): Politics nahi, government jo hai na, bhakt bane hai, tab tak. (Not about politics, the government that is here, let them become devotee, till then . . .) Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi, government ka baat nahi hai. Bolta hai ki yeh jo prachar karjo, jabtak Indian log, samajh rahe hai na. Yeh mushkil se bahar se ate hai . . . (indistinct) . . . (No no, it's not about government. I am saying that this preaching activity, until Indian people, are you getting my point. These people comes from outside with difficulty . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian man (2): Nahi, karenge. Aap ke ashirbad hai inke upar haat hai to sab kam hoga. (Yes, we will do. Your blessings are there, you have kept your hand upon him, so everything will happen.) Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi aap sunie na. (No no, you please listen.) Indian man (2): Ji ji. (Yes sir.) Prabhupāda: Jaise yeh log sahajog karte hai. (The way these people (foreigners) are cooperating.) Indian man (2): Ha, sab log karenge. (Yes, all will do.) Prabhupāda: Indian log karte . . . (Had Indian people also . . .) Indian man (2): Karenge, milke karenge. (They will also do, we will do it together.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Indians, they are not coming. Intelligent, educated Indians, they are not coming . . . (indistinct) . . . Boliye sabko, aap log milke samjhaie. (You tell everyone, convince them together.) Indian man (2): Swamiji bolte hai ki sabko samjhaiye, jab Bharat me baithe hai . . . (Swamiji is telling that we should tell everyone, when we are sitting in India itself . . .) Prabhupāda: Ha, especially South Indians. (Yes, especially South Indians.) Indian man (2): Ha, inko samjhake . . . (Yes, to make them understand . . .) Prabhupāda: South Indian. Indian man (3): : Jo bhi inke sath milke kam hi hai. (Whatever it may be, the job has to be done with them together.) Prabhupāda: There, still their Indian original culture is still there in South India. Other parts of India, they are not now . . . (indistinct) Indian man (3): : Correct. South India . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): Swamiji bolte hai iha ka bhi aap prachar kariye. Sabko pakarke inke sath milake is karya ko badhana chahiye . . . (indistinct) . . . yeh iha ka sabse bara . . . (indistinct) . . . south India ka. To yeh , agar isme bhag liya to sab kam ho jayega. (Swamiji is saying that you people also began preaching here. Get everyone and bring them together and spread the preaching activity . . . (indistinct) . . . he is the biggest . . . (indistinct) . . . of south India. If he takes part in this then all the job will be accomplished.) Prabhupāda: Isliye to aapko bol raha hu. Indian our American milkar kam karenge. (That's why I am telling you people. Both Indian and American will have to work together.) Indian man (2): Milkar kam karenge. (We will work together.) Prabhupāda: To isse bada asar parega, prabhab parega. (Then there will be great effect, good influence will be there.) Indian man (2): Jaroor prabhab parega. (Of course it will have influence.) Prabhupāda: Yeh to hai, aap Indian ko bulaiye. Sab mil kar ke gao gao me jaye.Ye jo bus hai hum log ka . . . (indistinct) . . . kahi bhi gao me giya, baith giya. Bhagawan ka murti hai, seba puja hoga, uha prasad bitaran hua . . . (indistinct) . . . (These people (foreigners) are here, you bring the Indians. Let them go villege after villege together. We have bus with us . . . (indistinct) . . . any time visit a villege and sit there. God's Deity is present, so worship and service will happen, then prasadam serving also will be done . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian man (3): : Har gao me jayega? (Will they go to every village?) Indian man (2): Ha, nahi bus me baithke sab le jayenge, prachar karenge. (No, they will take everyone by bus and will be preaching there.) Prabhupāda: Ha. Yeh to mazood hai . . . (indistinct) . . . jada nahi, ek dafa inka , ek dafa unka. Abhi arrangement kijiye. Ye log ko bhi mazood hai. Abhi kuch din me aa jenge. Achha sikshit. (Yes. These people are here . . . (indistinct) . . . not too much, once their turn then next time others. Please make the arrangements now only. These people are present here. Within few days they will come. Well educated.) Indian man (2): Ji ji. (Yes, yes.) Prabhupāda: Jo samajh sake. (Who will be able to make them understand.) Indian man (2): Bilkul. (Very true.) Prabhupāda: To, dekhiye abhi to hum . . . (So you see, now we . . .) We have got buses. We have got buses—two, three. Any number of. It is very simple method, that we combine together, Indian and foreigners. Go in buses. Kahi bhi baithe. Kahi bhi baithe. (You may sit anywhere. You may sit anywhere.) Indian man (2): Bhagawan sarbatra hai, sab uska hi seba karna hai. (God is present everywhere, we all are supposed to serve Him.) Prabhupāda: Bhagwan ka murti hai. Seva puja hua, bhog hua, sabko prasad dijiye. Bas dekhiye keya hua. Yeh log to majood hai, aap log kuch le aiye, abhi kam suru hoga. (We have a Diety of the Lord. Worship and service will happen, bhoga offering will be done, distribute prasada to all. Then you see what happens. These people are already present here, you bring some people, we will begin the work now.) Indian man (2): Karenge maharaj. (We will do it Mahārāja.) Prabhupāda: Koi mushkil nahi. (It's not at all difficult.) Indian man (2): Nahi karte hai. Bangalore ate hai, jitna ho sakte hai, hum log bhi karte hai. (Yes let's do it. Let's go to Bangalore, as much as possible, we will also try to do.) Prabhupāda: Now it should be organized movement. This is simply . . . Indian man (2): Aap bhi ek dafa Bangalore ane ki kripa kariye. (You also please visit Bangalore once.) Prabhupāda: Ha, jaroor jayenge. (Of course, I will go.) Indian man (2): You must also come in Bangalore once. Then it will be all . . . Prabhupāda: Iska. (Regarding this issue) Immediately think over that these Europeans, Americans are there. Now take up the association of another, at least one dozen . . . (indistinct) . . . Indians, and let us go together, gao to gao (village to village) . . . what do you think about it? Indian man (2): Bas achha hi hoga, Bhagwan ka prachar hoga. Sab jaga nam kirtan hoga. (It will be good, God's preaching will happen. Everywhere there will be nama kirtana .) Yaśodānandana: We could go from Madras . . . Prabhupāda: Anywhere. Indian man (2): Anywhere. Any village. All the villages . . . Prabhupāda: You start from anywhere and go anywhere and sit down and chant. Indian man (2): Sab bhoomi ko . . . (All the land . . .) *Prabhupāda: In India, Bhārata*-bhūmi jaha hari-kīrtana sunega, (In India, land of Bharata, whenever people will here hari kirtana ,) thousands will come. That is India. You won't have to advertise that, Indian man (2): No, rom rom me hai. (No, it's in every pore.) *Prabhupāda: "There is hari*-kīrtana . Come." No. As soon as you begin, immediately thousands. As soon as there will be sugar grain, immediately ants will come. Indian man (2): Ants will come. Prabhupāda: It is like that. This is a fact. Indian man (3): : Correct, correct. Hundred per cent correct. Bas jaha mridang baja sab log aa jayenge kirtan karte. (As soon as the sound of mrdanga will be heard, all the people will come to take part in kirtana .) Prabhupāda: Ye jo Bharat bhumi me janma hota hai. (When one takes birth in the land of Bharata.) Indian man (2): Bilkul. (Very true.) Prabhupāda: Ye Bhagawat me hai aap to jante hai, Debta log prarthana karte ki kuch humara punna agar rahe geya to humko Bharat me janme. (This is in Bhagavat , you might be knowing, demigods are praying that if we have some pious credit left then let us take birth in the land of Bharata.) Indian man (2): Bharat me janma de. Bharat ke to rom rom me Bhagwan hai, usme keya. (Let us take birth in Bharata. In every particle of Bharata, God consciousness is there—there's nothing strange in it.) Indian man (3): : Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā . Prabhupāda: Iska bandobast kijiye. (Please make arrangements for this.) Immediately. Just get one dozen good—I mean, good or bad, it doesn't matter—who is ready to work for this purpose. And our men are ready. Our buses are ready. So let us go. There is no question of selecting place. Anywhere. Anywhere. Indian man (3): : Any place, anywhere, all the places. Prabhupāda: You go and find out some good place for camping and begin kīrtana . Get down from the bus and begin kīrtana . Then all friends will come immediately. They will offer shelter, they will offer food—everything. Indian man (2): Ha yeh to Bharat ki parampara, chali ati hai sadi se. (Yes this is the tradition of Bharata, going on for ages.) Prabhupāda: One thing is that their difficulty is language. Indians are there, they can speak on the local language. Indian man (2): They can explain everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore wanted. Indian man (2): Swamiji Bhagwan ki seba ke liye to hum log aye hai chinta nahi. (Swamiji, we have come for the service of the Lord, you please don't worry.) Indian man (3): : Chinta kahe ko hai? (Why there will be worry?) Indian man (2): Swamiji to sabka leader hai. (Swamiji will be the leader for all.) Indian man (3): : (indistinct) . . . Tirupati me jake, Tirupati me Balaji ka darshan, Padmavati ka darshan, oha sare jake, Bhagwan ka darshan le karke, oha bhi bhajan our kirtan karke . . . (. . . (indistinct) . . . going to Tirupati, taking darshan of Balaji there and taking darshan of Padmavati, going there and taking darshan of their Lordships, doing bhajan and kirtan there . . .) Yaśomatīnandana: In Vaikuṇṭha Ekādaśī. In Shri Rangam they have this giant festival every year, the biggest festival in India. It's Vaikuṇṭha ekādaśī in December. Indian man (2): Last December we went there. *Yaśomatīnandana: Very big. November*-December is a very good time. Indian man (2): Apni Ranga Ji dekhechen? (Have you taken darshan of Ranganath?) Prabhapuda: Na. (No.) *Yaśomatīnandana: Kanchi*-puram. Baradrāj. Indian man (2): From here. Sidha south pura. (Straight to all in the South) . . . (indistinct) . . . up to Cape Comorin. Yaśomatīnandana: Ahobila, Tirupati Indian man (3): : Yes, all of them, all of them. Yaśomatīnandana: He knows all the places . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): This is the original birth, Shri Rangam. Prabhupāda: Now with Suraji's cooperation make a program. *Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, we will do like that. November*-December will be very suitable time. Then in January, the Kumbha-melā, we will try to organize something big there also. January, Allahabad, Kumbha-melā Prabhupāda: 26 aadmi . . . (26 people) . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): Hum log gaye the pura south India . . . (We had gone to the whole south India . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): Inko bhi le jayenge sab. Karenge , prachar. (Will take him also with us. Will preach.) (pause) Indian man (2): Bas aap ki ashirbad hum log leke chalenge. Sab achha hoga. (We will go ahead with your blessings, Everything will be good.) (pause) Prabhupāda: That's all. Stop now. Harikeśa: I was just going to say you should take massage now. Prabhupāda: Ha? Harikeśa: I was just going to say it's time for massage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Can I tell you about the bank? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Punjab National Bank is down the street, and we have our temple account there. Prabhupāda: Oh, Punjab National Bank is there. That's all right. Harikeśa: So how much do you want to deposit? Prabhupāda: That I have to count. Harikeśa: So we can do it any time. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Harikeśa: And before you arrange this Kumbha*-melā—it's very cold there. Prabhupāda: Don't talk now. Harikeśa: Okay. (long pause) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Everything is going on. Wood carving, cement lay, painting, marble polishing. The yajña . Prabhupāda: If we would have remained there . . . these people are coming. How they could see? . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Still, it would have been very quiet. Prabhupāda: We are not . . . (indistinct) . . . besides that, we don't want quietness. We want how many are . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Jaya . If you wanted quietness, you could have stayed in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) (Conversation About Mayapura Construction) Gargamuni: . . . to keep it going we took a minimum amount of ten thousand a month. We were getting ten thousand a month. But to finish the building we require more, more per month, because ten thousand is just the most minimum amount just to keep it going. Prabhupāda: So you are collecting? Gargamuni: Yes, but that is going for maintenance. I give twenty thousand a month now. Prabhupāda: Maintenance, twenty thousand? Gargamuni: Well, that includes agriculture, the gurukula —everything. It includes everything. Jayapatākā: Actual maintenance, about eight or ten thousand. Other things, landscaping and other things . . . Gargamuni: Landscaping . . . we built you a very wonderful park, very nice park. We've also put a walkway around the ghāṭa with stairs. Prabhupāda: Now, what is the position of our big project? Jayapatākā: That's what I was going to tell you first. So what happened was that the application we had given to the Chief Secretary and the Board of Revenue, that had gone from them to Mr. Choudhuri, who in turn had sent it on to the Commissioner. The Commissioner sent to District Magistrate. The Commissioner sent to the District Magistrate. So District Magistrate, he gave a favorable reply. Prabhupāda: He has given? Jayapatākā: Favorable reply. He said that, "This is a good project. It will help the district." He only said that they should maybe get 300 acres instead of 350, or like that. He reduced something. Then it went back again to the Commissioner, who was a Christian. He's the one I mentioned. He wrote bad report. Then when Choudhuri got it, he wrote a very good report. He wrote a very good report. He said that there's no question of Hindu or Muslim. Just like in Bangkok they have that one big Viṣṇu Temple. That is a . . . or the Taj Mahal. This is no longer any type of religious . . . this is for all mankind. Similarly, this Māyāpur will be a monument for the whole mankind. Prabhupāda: For the whole world. Jayapatākā: For the whole world. So in this way he gave a very good, very good statement. Then that went to the Chief Secretary again, who had to give it to the Chief Minister. So the Chief Minister, he does not have a good opinion. He did not have a good opinion of our Society. Prabhupāda: Who is the Chief Minister? Jayapatākā: Siddhanta Shankaraya. Prabhupāda: He is very expert man. *Jayapatākā: He's a very expert . . . he's one of their chief politicians from India. He used to be Education Minister of Indira Gandhi. He's one of her right*-hand men. Gargamuni: Very important for Bengal. Bengal is the most important state, and he has very prominent position to the Prime Minister as advisor. Jayapatākā: So at that time, I couldn't write him a letter. He had written that . . . something which made Mr. Choudhuri very angry. He wrote something which made Mr. Choudhuri very angry. Made also the Chief Secretary angry. He wrote . . . Gargamuni: No, who wrote? Jayapatākā: The Chief Minister wrote. He said, "Because of the impassioned . . ." He said: "I would have refused this application except for the impassioned appeal of one of my senior officers, namely Mr. Choudhuri. They are asking for three hundred acres of land, but the East India Company, they asked only twenty acres of land, and they have conquered the whole of India." (loud kīrtana in background) Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: "East India Company, they have asked only twenty acres of land, but they have conquered the whole of India." Gargamuni: "They ruled India for two hundred years." Jayapatākā: Oh. "Ruled India for two hundred years." Prabhupāda: Who said? Chief Minister? Gargamuni: The Chief Minister wrote that the East India Company purchased twenty acres of land and ruled India for two hundred years. That was his reply to our application. Prabhupāda: Chief Minister said? Gargamuni: Yes. They're afraid that by taking this, we will rule India. Jayapatākā: Anyway, that's a very frivolous statement. That was a frivolous statement. Prabhupāda: No, that, ruling over India, they politically ruled. Jayapatākā: But we're not politicians. Prabhupāda: Even if we are rule, we shall rule spiritually. We have nothing to do with politics. Jayapatākā: That's the point. That's why even the Chief Secretary, he became . . . Gargamuni: They didn't take it seriously. The Chief Secretary and Mr. Choudhuri did not take that very seriously, that comment. Jayapatākā: It didn't end there. Gargamuni: It's a frivolous comment. Jayapatākā: It's progressed. That's one month ago. Since then it's progressed. Then he said, "Let there be more inquiry on the nature of the Society and its source of funds, etc . . ." In the meantime, many people had come and inquired about our Society—CID, CI . . . Gargamuni: Also the industrial . . . one industrial from the . . . they want to know how we will arrange for so many work for so many people. I met them there. They want to know, "How will you get everyone to work?" They sent . . . many, from many different governmental departments, came, inquiring, "How you will do this?" And they all went away satisfied. We showed them the handloom; we showed them the gośālā , we showed them the children. Even Tarun Kanti Ghosh, he came, and we lined up fifty children, and they read the Gītār Gān , and he almost started crying. He liked it so much. He said: "Oh, you have done so nicely with the children." So they were impressed with the work. Jayapatākā: So at that time Mr. Choudhuri, he was put down. But he said: "I have not yet lost hope." He said, but he was put down a bit. That night personally talked to the Minister of Nadia, Anandamoy Visvas, who I personally met last year. And he was telling him that for Nadia he should sponsor this. Even the negative political issue with the Chief Minister, he should push it through. In the meantime, I wrote an application to Tarun Kanti Ghosh, who up to now we hadn't asked. Because it had already passed all the preliminaries. And I went and spoke to him. I told him that, "It has already passed all the government stages. Now simply the Chief Minister has to be convinced." He said: "No, no. You are of good integrity. There is no doubt about ISKCON. I will immediately tell him." He called up the Chief Secretary. The Chief Minister was out then. Later on he talked to Chief Minister. The next time I saw Mr. Choudhuri . . . before that, he told me . . . that's when he told me that, "Maybe Prabhupāda should see the Chief Minister." Now he said it's not necessary. He liked your reply to them. After that, I saw Mr. Tarun Kanti Ghosh. Then I saw Choudhuri again a week later. At that time he said: "Now everything is changed." He said: "Now the Chief Minister, that problem is solved." He has written that, "Let Mr. Choudhuri take the decision. Let him take the decision. But I cannot simply take the decision. They'll say I am biased. I must work in the ordinary ways of the government. But there is no trouble now. You have waited so long. You wait another thirty or sixty days." He said: "Wait another sixty days, and then you'll get it." Prabhupāda: When he wrote? When he wrote this? Jayapatākā: He spoke to me just two weeks ago. Two weeks ago. Then, last week, again I saw him just before Janmāṣṭamī. I asked him . . . then I gave him invitation to Janmāṣṭamī. At that time he told me that . . . after was this bad publicity. He told me, "Now this bad publicity, I think it has given us some benefit." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, could you give darśana over here later? They've all been waiting for your darśana . Gargamuni: Hey, wait a minute. We're talking about Māyāpur. We're talking about Māyāpur. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: Is there . . .? Is there necessity? Gargamuni: There's no necessary. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. But we had you down on schedule for a lecture. So I said that you're not lecturing, but they just wanted to have a look at you. Later we can have . . . Prabhupāda: Tomorrow I shall. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Tomorrow. Okay. Prabhupāda: Tomorrow I shall lecture. Gargamuni: Go ahead. *Jayapatākā: Now, just a few days ago, when I invited him for Janmāṣṭamī, then I asked him what the . . . he told me at that time, he said: "Now . . ." He had recently received a phone call from the Chief Secretary. "You see? Now your favorite project is going to be spoiled." Then he went over to see the Chief Secretary. He showed him an article from the Rāja*-Sabhā , how the member of Parliament had given this challenge that, "Are these people CIA or this or that?" Then Mr. Choudhuri said: "Sir, I am not afraid." He said: "Why not?" "Because I have you, don't I?" Then the Chief said: "Yes. You have won me over. I believe in this project." Then he said that now the Chief Minister has agreed that the project be sanctioned. But he said that, "I don't want to take the full brunt of the decision. Let the Nadia District Planning Committee take the decision." Prabhupāda: Nadia? Jayapatākā: District Planning Committee. So the head of the Nadia District Planning Committee is that minister, Anandamoy Visvas. So I went to him, and I gave him an invitation for the Janmāṣṭamī. When I saw him, then . . . you gave me that letter. So I showed him that letter where you have said that, "Every day we're selling sixty thousand dollars' of books, and I thank you for helping me." I said: "Sir, we are simply doing Prabhupāda's order. This is not our work. It is not a foreign work. It is his work; we are simply doing it. He is selling so many books that he wants to invest some of the money to develop Mahāprabhu's birth site. That is all. He has got the money. Why he should not invest it?" He said: "I am going to have a meeting of the committee next week, and I'm going to push your project through. We're going to pass it." That is the last word I heard. So it looks that everything is very good right now . . . but we have to keep our Society very pure, because they're investigating us very strong. All the time they're having people watching us. Gargamuni: There is now in Māyāpur . . . the talk is, there's some special advisors to the Prime Minister are in Māyāpur now investigating to make sure. *Jayapatākā: Some of the local people that were working with me, getting petitions, they came and told me that some people from Delhi or outside were inquiring about us, about Bhavānanda Goswami, about Jayapatākā, about this project, about how the devotees are dealing with the public, whether we are doing any anti*-Indian work. All sorts of questions they are asking. So it's very important that we keep very up-and-up right now. All the time. But otherwise the government, they are happy with our work. And so far, Mr. Choudhuri said, other people have indicated that they have found no bad report about our Society, although they are looking so hard. Therefore they are passing. Gargamuni: The State government is very favorable. But the doubt, of course, is coming from the central government because they don't know us. But the state government, they are very favorable. Everyone we've met within the State, they like us very much. They like the Society, they like your work, and, of course, they like your books. Jayapatākā: The local police intelligence officer in Krishnagar, when I went to see him, he told me, Ami tomake bharatiya nagarik kore dicchi. Ami kore dicchi. (I am making you an Indian citizen. I am making you.) Like that, he told me. "Definitely I make you an Indian citizen." So they are favorable. I don't know how much they can do, but locally they are favorable. Gargamuni: Now on the weekend we have tours of the building. Many groups of people come. Fifty in a group sometimes, to come and visit. Prabhupāda: Tourists. Gargamuni: Yes, tourists, and we take them on tour of the building. That's Subhaga. He takes them on tour and he gives some preaching. So many people are coming. Prabhupāda: Subhaga is in charge of that? Gargamuni: Yes, he does. Jayapatākā: Others are there also. One new boy is very good. He's . . . Gargamuni: Kiśora. Jayapatākā: Kiśora dāsa. He's also translating. He's a little more strong than Subhaga, although new. Very good boy, very humble. He's from a good family also. Prabhupāda: What is the flood situation? Jayapatākā: Flood situation . . . Gargamuni: Very mild monsoon this year. Almost drought. Almost. Very mild. Very little rain. Prabhupāda: Rain is not very strong. Gargamuni: No. The monsoon is not strong. Jayapatākā: Our aus (a type of rice) crop has been hampered because of lack of rain and early monsoon. Only in the past week there's been a little rain. Otherwise, before, there was very little rain. Not fully drought . . . Gargamuni: But less rain than previous years. Jayapatākā: Everything is very green and nice, but so far as agriculture is concerned . . . Prabhupāda: It requires more rain. Jayapatākā: It requires more rain and early tide. Right now the river is full, but it is not flooding. It is full. See, Mr. Choudhuri, he was interested. At that time when the Chief Minister wrote that, then he wrote this, that "If you were to see the Chief Minister, then this type of letter could be submitted and he would definitely see you," although it is not necessary to see him. Prabhupāda: Do you think it is? Jayapatākā: No, it's not necessary to personally see him. You might write . . . when you come to Māyāpur we'll write him invitation that he can come and see and visit you there. That was better. Mr. Choudhuri said that, "Your Guru Mahārāja, he has also got the Vaiṣṇava pride not to see the politicians." He said: "This is a good stand. I respect this very much." Actually he mentioned once to Abhirāma confidentially that, "If this project comes through, then you'll be requiring some liaison officer, because there will be so many government things. At that time I can work for you as your permanent advisor and go to Delhi and here and there and do all the work." I think he wants a job. Prabhupāda: I thought that Mr. Choudhuri would do everything, but that is not the position. Jayapatākā: Almost he is doing everything. Actually he's trying to say that he did everything. But I think that when we saw Tarun Kanti Ghosh, that cleared up . . . that matter with Chief Minister, that cleared that up. As far as the other lower secretary men are . . . Mr. Choudhuri did everything. The Chief Minister doubt, I think Tarun helped clear that up. That's the only thing that he couldn't change the mind of is the Chief Minister. Otherwise he did everything else, almost, you can say. Gargamuni: He came on the last ekādaśī . Just last ekādaśī , what, ten days ago? Seven days ago he came for the ekādaśī to Māyāpur just to see. Prabhupāda: Who? Gargamuni: Tarun Kanti Ghosh. He took prasādam , he took the ekādaśī , and he liked it very much. *Jayapatākā: I just saw him also just before Janmāṣṭamī, and he was still very favorable then. We talked for about an hour and a half. He introduced me to all the MLAs of the twenty*-four paraganās . Prabhupāda: Tarun Kanti? Jayapatākā: When I go preaching, then I go, and the government MLA and Congress people, they also help me. They arrange sometimes places for me to stay and big program. And they protect that no people cause us any disturbances. Although we don't . . . Prabhupāda: What about our Godbrothers? Jayapatākā: The Godbrothers . . . Prabhupāda: They are also opposing? Jayapatākā: Subhaga made a very bad . . . Bhavānanda sent him over to invite Śrīdhara Swami for Janmāṣṭamī, as a show of respect. When he went there, and Śrīdhara Swami . . . he's not so clever boy. So Śrīdhara Swami asked him that, "Oh, what about your land acquisition?" What does he know about land acquisition? We never discussed anything with him. He can only know by hearsay or any . . . so then Subhaga said: "Oh, it's in the hands of the Chief Minister," for which I reprimanded him. He should have denied any knowledge of the matter at all. "Why you have given any information?" But they are very interested in these things, and maybe they are still trying to stop it, but I don't think they have the power. Prabhupāda: They have no power. Jayapatākā: They are the ones who have raised up that first petition, that Surendra dāsa, I think, and others. They are behind that. They themselves were in the market trying to get petition against, but no one would sign for them. We made a little of political . . . because in Māyāpur now we have got seventy percent of the people are . . . Prabhupāda: In our favor. Jayapatākā: In our favor strongly. And only a minority are actively opposed, one percent even. And thirty per cent are in doubt. So, so much so that even I saw recently the MLA who was previously against us. And when I saw him I invited him for Janmāṣṭamī, and he said what about our program for a bridge? I said: "Oh, yes, I discussed with Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he suggested having a floating bridge to Navadvīpa. That will be very short, very easily done, with least expense." He said: "Anyway, next time you come to Navadvīpa you can discuss with me. I am ready to help you in all ways." So he has turned his mind around. Prabhupāda: Who? Jayapatākā: The MLA, the local Member of Legislative Assembly. He was previously a little against us. But because our whole . . . (indistinct) . . . is for us, if he doesn't cooperate he won't get their vote, because they want the development in their area. Also the . . . he is changing a little. Everyone is saying that our Society is actually simply doing sincere work. Prabhupāda: As they are doing. Jayapatākā: This food distribution has been very important. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Jayapatākā: Now the price of rice has gone up by about eighty paisa . From two rupees to two*-eighty. So the poor class of people, they are in a very bad situation. So now our attendance has gone up from twelve hundred to two thousand on that Saturday and Sunday, each day. So we have two shifts. So many people are coming that they come from ten o'clock in the morning and wait, because otherwise they can't get a boat in time to cross the river. So then we were very surprised to read in a recent newsletter from LA that, "They're going to restart the food relief." But we never knew it stopped. We never knew that they had stopped the food relief. We saw then that he said, "They're going to restart." But we never stopped, and we were very surprised to see that. And now they say . . . Prabhupāda: Who said? Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara. Gargamuni: To maintain this food relief from the centers only requires what? Fifteen hundred dollars a month. Jayapatākā: Something like that, yes. Gargamuni: About fifteen hundred dollars a month. So little amount, and so much service is done. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: So I know Tamāla, he was giving one thousand, but he has stopped now. He was giving one thousand a month. And now he has stopped. Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara, you wrote him a letter that, "Jayapatākā Swami should be sent money for ISKCON Food Relief." And he told me that, "I am sending you. I have four thousand dollars," which he sent. Of that we had already been 36,000 rupees in debt because we hadn't received money for six months. But he wrote in a newsletter to the temples that, "Prabhupāda has wrote me to send money to Jayapatākā Swami; and now we're going to start again ISKCON Food Relief." But that was making it appear that we had stopped. But actually we had never stopped. Prabhupāda: Rāmeśvara. He did not know? Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara had stopped collecting from the temples. But we had never stopped . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, he'll collect. That's all. Jayapatākā: So anyway, your program everyone is appreciating. When the newspapermen came out, at that time the . . . (indistinct) . . . development officer he came there, and when the newspapermen were there he sat down with all the poor people, and he took also, and said: "This is very good. This is our national service." And they photographed. Prabhupāda: "National service"? Jayapatākā: Yes, he mentioned. Gargamuni: Still, though, because of these articles, it has been a little bit hard to secure money from people now, because the people who are giving us money, they are under investigation also, the rich people. So when they see we are under investigation, oh, then they get afraid. They don't want to give. Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: Because we're under investigation and they're also being investigated, so they don't want to endanger . . . the government is every day raiding the houses of the rich people. Prabhupāda: Anyway, what is the investigation? Jayapatākā: They are being investigated for income tax. Gargamuni: For income tax. The government is making it so that no one can give any donation. They don't want any more donation. They want everything to come to the government. So it's not easy to get money locally. We are getting enough to do maintenance, but it is not like it was, say, two or three years ago, when you could get 25,000, 15,000, especially in Calcutta, where the income tax, every day they are raiding the houses. Jayapatākā: Even if people give, a life . . . patron member, 2,222, if they are not so big, they want to give in installment, and even though they'll give at one time with postdated . . . they want different receipt, because if they give one lump sum, then it makes it seem that like they are very rich. Although they'll give you at one time, they want small, small receipt so that the income tax won't think, "Oh, they are giving so much donation? They must be very rich. They must have hidden wealth which we can capture from them by investigation." So in this way they are very much pressurized. Sometimes they prefer to give money without receipt. Prabhupāda: Soon on the whole, our program is going on. Gargamuni: Oh, yes. No, it's going on more. The book distribution is going on more. More people are joining. There's no hindrance. Prabhupāda: That I want. Jayapatākā: These are simply minor obstacles. Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Pālikā was just wondering if you wanted anything tonight. Prabhupāda: Yes. If she can . . . she can make little vegetable—potato, tomato. Hari-śauri: Purīs ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Or one paraṭā . One paraṭā . Hari-śauri: Just potatoes and tomato? Prabhupāda: Yes, tomato, potato, one vegetable. Gargamuni: Prabhupāda's house. Your house. You have not decided where you want to put your house. Prabhupāda: I wanted that if the major project is done, then we can select. What do you think? Jayapatākā: Let the big land be acquired and pick the best place. Let the whole land be acquired and then pick the best place. You wanted to wait for the whole land to be acquired, and then pick the best place. Prabhupāda: Yes. And not I want, but that you all see, which is the best place. Jayapatākā: For the most privacy. Prabhupāda: For the time being, that place is very nice, that pond. What is there? Gargamuni: It's become congested there now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: We have 125 people now. Jayapatākā: 138. Gargamuni: 138 people now. 138 people are living there. Women, children . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: There's fifty children now. So that place is now . . . the front has become somewhat congested . . . Prabhupāda: Congested. Gargamuni: . . . with noise and children. Prabhupāda: What about the painting? Gargamuni: Painting is going on. Oh, yes. Jayapatākā: They've done about sixteen or seventeen, I think. Prabhupāda: Our men? Gargamuni: Yes, yes. Jayapatākā: Two men. Ānakadundubhi and . . . What's his name? Gargamuni: Pāṇḍu. *Jayapatākā: (indistinct) . . . I went to Haridaspur as soon as I received your letter because Bahusvarūpa was there, making arrangement for the Janmāṣṭamī festival. So I spoke to all those people for two days, Thursday and Friday. And the land is in the name of the zamindar , Mr . . . Ghosh family. There's fourteen members who have to sign. So in Haridaspur nine members are living, and they are all agreed for signing. And they say the other five members live in Calcutta. Once they sign the deed, they'll also sign. There's no doubt, because that's not even in their possession. That's in the public's possession. And all the public, Anchal*-pradhan and all the other leaders of that village, they are also all eager to have us start. I think that we can also raise some money in the neighborhood. There's some relatively rich people. So that . . . I was trying to register that before I came here, but because Monday is . . . that zamindar has one haṭṭa . And that's . . . his haṭṭa day is Monday, so he was busy. And Tuesday was Janmāṣṭamī by government of West Bengal, and Wednesday was our Janmāṣṭamī and Haridaspur Janmāṣṭamī, and I came here today, Thursday, so we couldn't do it beforehand. But as soon as I go back, I can register that. And . . . but someone should immediately come, Mūrti or Saurabha or someone, and see that land. Prabhupāda: No, no, we have to . . . yes. We have to see, make plans. *Jayapatākā: Because actually just by giving the site plan you can't make a plan, because that's a high area, and it goes down to the river. So from our land to the river, that is also under our use. That is kashjami . That is no*-man's land. But that we can also use, and that has to be some strengthening so that when the river . . . and rain cannot wear away the side. So these details they should come and see, and then they could make a proper plan, I think. Without seeing, they can't make. 'Cause it's a very small area, it should be very well planned. And the local people there, they are very innocent people. They don't seem to have any type of enmity or envy at all. They all come and chant and see. Although they don't strictly follow the rules, naturally—they eat fish and other things and smoke—but they seem to be simple people. If someone would work with him, I think he could make the whole village gradually Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: But who that person is right now to work, that we have to train up some of our men. Because right now . . . Prabhupāda: He can do, Svarūpa. He can take training, and he can do. And then, gradually, others will join. Jayapatākā: I think all the children, they could become brahmacārīs . If the parents would be agreeable, they could become brahmacārīs and attend morning some class, then go to school. In this way, if the whole village could be made Kṛṣṇa conscious at least by chanting and attending, chanting . . . Prabhupāda: Chanting is the main thing. Chanting and distributing prasādam . Jayapatākā: If we get prasādam , then . . . and I think that they all contribute some grain. They are very poor agricultural people, but there's no theft there. I asked. There's one man who has three acres. Three bighās of land he's giving. So they just grow their rice there and . . . Prabhupāda: You can ask that instead of making paraṭā , a light khicuṛi in the morning. That is . . . Hari-śauri: Instead of that sabjī and everything. Prabhupāda: No, sabjī can make. Jayapatākā: Khicuṛi instead of paraṭā , as she made in the morning. Prabhupāda: So khicuṛi will be easy, light. Hari-śauri: You want some khicuṛi and the potato? Prabhupāda: Put in the khicuṛi and tomato. Like in the morning. Hari-śauri: Yes. Do you want anything like purī or anything to eat with it? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: Just khicuṛi with the vegetable. Prabhupāda: That will be easily digested. Jayapatākā: Digestion is not good now. Gargamuni: This will help digestion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: This medicine. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: There is ginger, I think. Prabhupāda: No. This is ajwain . My only concern is about the Immigration Department. They are gagging you, "Now you finished . . . go out. Go away, go out . . ." So they are making so big, big arrangement. If my foreign disciples are forced to go away, then what is the happen? That is . . . Gargamuni: Well, as far as myself . . . of course, I was supposed to leave yesterday. But there is very easy process. You can come in and out and stay six months. Prabhupāda: So that, make plans. That will . . . otherwise we are making so big, big, big plan. Who will manage? Jayapatākā: For that matter, we can get . . . even the American citizen, they can get outside . . . by various means you can get Canadian or English passports. Gargamuni: But even then, we can go to Lahore, get visa three months, come in, but you can stay six months. Then go out again, get another visa, come in and out. There is no problem. We have already done that with some of the other men. Prabhupāda: Make . . . find out such means. Otherwise . . . Alexander the Great, having so many kingdom, and as soon as he goes away, it is finished. *Jayapatākā: Also, if you would write . . . I think if you wrote a letter to Brahmānanda Reddy and that Mr. Mehta, the Deputy Assistant or whatever, minister, regarding these questions coming in the Rāja*-sabhā about this Māyāpur and Vṛndāvana, "Actually these two centers are my . . . I am founder- ācārya of these centers, and the people working there are not independent of me. I have asked them to come for assisting me." Then, if a letter like that is written to them, and send me one copy, that will help immigration also, I think. Gargamuni: Also another investigation, we're always asked, "Where is your headquarters?" Jayapatākā: And then "Our headquarters is in India." Gargamuni: It must be always stated, "Our headquarters are India." If we say "foreign," that means we are controlled by foreign. We must publish everywhere that our head . . . Prabhupāda: No, we have mentioned headquarters Bombay? Jayapatākā: We just said offices. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: They think that Los Angeles is our headquarters. Prabhupāda: That is for America. Gargamuni: We explain like that. Prabhupāda: But real headquarter here. Gargamuni: I think if one letter is given that, "We are purely Indian, that I am the ācārya , and they are simply helping me, they are not . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the fact. Jayapatākā: Actual facts is . . . that would help, if such a letter was given. Then on the basis of that, we can also go and preach or talk, or we can show that to the local people, that "This is . . ." Because they keep thinking that we are coming on our own. Because you are outside traveling, they see us only, and they think we are independent. Prabhupāda: No, in every letter heading there is my name, " Ācārya , Founder- ācārya ." Jayapatākā: That is their stupidity. But if some . . . that one direct letter, short letter, then if we have a copy I'll show that to the CID there, that "This, Prabhupāda has written to the Minister of Home. This is in answer to your question." Prabhupāda: Then take that copy. Jayapatākā: I'll make one draft. Prabhupāda: No, I have written already letter? Jayapatākā: You've written already letter? Prabhupāda: To the Home Minister? Jayapatākā: I didn't get. Has he written a letter to the Home Minister? Prabhupāda: No, Home Minister has given one letter. Gargamuni: I have that letter. Jayapatākā: You have one. Oh. Also, all over Bengal people are appreciating. I went . . . when we go preaching in the small towns . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Wait, I am coming. Among the . . . amongst these . . . not only for India, but the whole world. You are doing nice work to push this movement. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura wanted Indians, Americans. They can . . . Prabhupāda also. Now make plans how to . . . we are not concerned only with India. All over the world. Make plan. Think over. Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence. Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda would come to Māyāpur. Jayapatākā: When is your program for coming to Māyāpur? All the devotees are offering their obeisances to you. Bhavānanda Goswami, he is following very strictly the cāturmāsya this year. He doesn't eat anything before sunrise. Gargamuni: The weather there is very nice, because the monsoon is mild. It is very nice, cool weather. Prabhupāda: I have got a bad impression, Bengal during rainy season. Gargamuni: Yes, right. Prabhupāda: Is it not? Gargamuni: This year, for the first two months it was . . . Prabhupāda: No, it was not rainy season. This season. Otherwise, any season in Bengal, not are very good. Hari-śauri: Insect season. Prabhupāda: Not only insect. There are . . . insects are there? Gargamuni: There's no insects now. Jayapatākā: Rainy season no insects. Hari-śauri: No, after rainy season. Jayapatākā: After rainy season. Prabhupāda: After rainy season. And insect is not so bad. Indigestion. Jayapatākā: Indigestion. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . Gargamuni: What part of India is good during rainy season? Is there any part of India that's good during rainy season? Hari-śauri: Vṛndāvana's not too bad. Prabhupāda: I think Vṛndāvana. Is it not? Hari-śauri: I was there last year. Jayapatākā: I only know Bengal. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You are now Bengali. Jayapatākā: (laughs) Prabhupāda: And they are not giving citizenship? *Jayapatākā: Myself? What happened was I applied last September. So now it's nearly one year. So they had sent my application from Māyāpur to Calcutta, Writer's Building. Again back. Again Writer's Building, then to Delhi. Then Delhi sent again back. I went, and I asked the secretary, and then I found out that they had sent again back from Delhi, again back to Māyāpur, and then re*-investigated me. At that time they brought in some local people, and one investigator, he said that, "This Jayapatākā Swami, we have heard that he is a very bad person. He beats the people." They said: "No, we never heard such thing." "No, no. We have heard that he is very bad." In this way, by negative they are testing. They came and told me that for two hours police is drilling three different people from Navadvīpa and from Māyāpur. In this way no one said a bad . . . Prabhupāda: No, if you are a famous man, then they'll do. That is very good. Gargamuni: Him and Bhavānanda. Jayapatākā: Now Bhavānanda is more famous. Prabhupāda: He is notorious. Jayapatākā: But now he is in the papers. Prabhupāda: (laughing) He . . . you are famous; he is notorious. It is very difficult to deal with these nonsense. They are devotees, and neither notorious nor famous. Our Godbrothers, they do not like Bhavānanda. Eh? Jayapatākā: No, they don't like me anymore either. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? What is your fault? Jayapatākā: They always thought, because I am not so outspoken, that "Jayapatākā, we can get him to do as we like." But ultimately I don't do anything for them either, so now they don't like me either. Bhavānanda openly was against, and I was passive. I didn't say anything. But when they came to me I also . . . actually, I am afraid. Mādhava Mahārāja, he invited me to attend his program, some festival day . . . Prabhupāda: Where? Jayapatākā: At his Maṭha. Prabhupāda: Ten days? Ten days. *Jayapatākā: No, it was a three*-day program. He invited us for one day. But I was afraid to go. He might even poison me. But they personally went . . . Prabhupāda: That is their business, especially Mādhava Mahārāja. Jayapatākā: If not materially by poison, then spiritually by ear. One way or other, they have to give poison. So I didn't even want to go. I didn't go, either. Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara Mahārāja is also within the group? Jayapatākā: Of course, all those details we don't know. By the way, Tīrtha Mahārāja—very sick. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gargamuni: Oxygen. Jayapatākā: He can't breath. He is on a bed with oxygen. Life and death any moment. Injection, oxygen, barely staying alive. One day better, one day worse. Now they say better; then again they say worse. In this way his life is going on. But they say that his brother, Samvidananda, a barrister . . . (break) . . . and they've done a great to improve that. Now everyone is improved. Everyone is improved because of their example. That is what we simply need, are people . . . I saw the program so nicely, if people would simply come and work sincerely, they'll make spiritual advancement. They'll chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very quickly they'll become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So now we're seeing that we're being . . . we're demanding that sincere people come. Prabhupāda: Yes, it may not be the association of lazy people, free hotel. No. Jayapatākā: Bhavānanda, he's strict on that. Gargamuni: He's very strict. Without working, no one can eat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only work, but attending the program. That is essential. Jayapatākā: They all attend maṅgala-ārati , evening ārati . They should also attend morning class. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Work is partial. These things are essential. Jayapatākā: Maṅgala-ārati and morning class. Gargamuni: But some of these men are workers. They're not . . . Prabhupāda: No, our cloth necessities are supplied by ourselves? The cloth? Jayapatākā: The difficulty is right now we have twenty thousand rupees' worth of cloth in stock. That is all profit. We only are three thousand rupees in debt. But we have all the cloth, we have no customers. Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: There's no customers. We have a huge stock . . . Prabhupāda: You send immediately to America. They will pay. Gargamuni: We sent a newsletter to get people to buy cloth the cloth, because we have a huge stock of it. Prabhupāda: Now, you ask Bhagavān. He is very clever. He's expert. Jayapatākā: We are worried that now we're getting good men to join, they're doing good work, then how . . . Prabhupāda: I think if you prepare according to the order of our foreign centers, then you won't be . . . they will all give. You can make fine cloth? Jayapatākā: We can make up to eighty count. Eighty count we can make now. Prabhupāda: They are purchasing cloth, shirt and everything. Jayapatākā: They're saying . . . sometimes they say that, "The cloth you make is not what we like." But I tell them we can make any cloth. You give us sample. You tell us. We'll make to your specification." They don't . . . Prabhupāda: Even . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, Jayatīrtha, Bhagavān dāsa, they'll help. Jayapatākā: The GBCs can write a letter, and I'll sign it, you and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Gargamuni: All right, I'll write a letter. Let's not bother Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: How is that, twenty thousand stock is there? You can send it. In India there is no customer? Gargamuni: No, because it's made according to European length. Big size. Jayapatākā: Up to now we've been making according to the devotees' specification. To make for Indian we have to make a different type. We can also make Indian sārī and other thing. They'll be cheaper one. But previously we were making because we thought that all the foreign branches . . . Prabhupāda: So whatever . . . now you can make Indian style. You keep great stock. Jayapatākā: Well, we are hearing that they are buying the cloth elsewhere. Gargamuni: All right. Come on. Jayapatākā: All right. Prabhupāda: Eh? They are buying elsewhere? Gargamuni: Yes. They are buying sometimes from other. (to Jayapatākā) All right. Let's go and chant. We'll come back tomorrow. Jayapatākā: Other thing we can discuss tomorrow. (break) Gargamuni: . . . Birla Prabhupāda: It is difficult to go there. It is difficult to go there. Gargamuni: Yes. And here there is more devotion. Prabhupāda: Here they are devotees. Jayapatākā: We made this for distributing, and the public, they take and worship in their home, purchase it. Gargamuni: (to Jayapatākā) Let's go. Prabhupāda: They purchase? Gargamuni: Yes. Jayapatākā: Yes. This is Indian printing. Prabhupāda: Calcutta? Gargamuni: Yes. (break) Prabhupāda: So, so far the building is concerned, that is already settled up. Jayapatākā: Yes, that's all settled. Prabhupāda: Then, what other? *Jayapatākā: Well, there were some other lighter matters. When I was traveling in my preaching, then last time in Māyāpur, when that Haridaspur, when they offered, you mentioned to me that you liked that we develop these . . . all these holy spots. So just as a matter of convenience, whenever I was near any holy spot that you mentioned in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , I would go and just visit the place. So in my tour, one place I went to was very nice, and that sevaite, he spontaneously, when I showed him all your work, he had offered me that he would like to give the temple to you. That temple is much, much more developed than Haridaspur. That's the temple of Maheśa Paṇḍita. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Jayapatākā: And that is the seventeenth branch of Lord Nityānanda. It's got the personal Deities of Nitāi*-Gaura that he used to worship. It's got a building worth about fifty thousand rupees on it. A nice, brand-new nātha-mandira. This man is Shri Keshav Priya Brahmacari. He's a disciple of that Krishna Prem, that Mr. Nixtan or something. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayapatākā: He talked personally with Bhaktisiddhānta, I heard, in Sanskrit many years ago. He's a disciple. Prabhupāda: He's Indian or . . .? *Jayapatākā: Well, it's an unusual story that that man was a pilot in the World War, and he was flying over Himalayas or something, and he saw Kṛṣṇa in his mind's eye or something. And then, when he was shot down, he saw Kṛṣṇa, and then, when he landed, he searched out who he saw, and he came to Vṛndāvana or something and saw the Deity of Kṛṣṇa, and he became initiated at Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa temple. *Prabhupāda: Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa Jayapatākā: This is that guru story. Now he only made a few disciples, and he always was chanting. Also Panditjī, he knew more. I don't know so much about his guru but I've heard a little bit that this foreigner became a guru or became a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Nixon? Jayapatākā: His previous name is Nixton; his initiated name was Krishna Prem. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was in Almora. Jayapatākā: Almora, yes. I don't know exactly where Almora is. Prabhupāda: Almora is a hilly station, Himalaya. If . . . Almora, one goes from Lucknow. *Jayapatākā: So this brahmacārī is a disciple of him. Therefore he doesn't have any connection. There's no sampradāya anymore, because his guru disappeared, and somehow he's got this sevā . These are the Deities there of Nitāi*-Gaura. There's about twelve śālagrāma-śilās also. And a little Rādhā-Gopīnātha. This is all mentioned in your purport. It's only about four or five hundred yards. I could read from it. Prabhupāda: Eh? No, that's all right. Jayapatākā: It's four or five hundred yards from the Palpara Railway Station. It's the next station from Chuktaha, under Chuktaha police station. Prabhupāda: Chuktaha? Chakdah. Jayapatākā: Chakdah. That's where you take your . . . that mango orchard where you take your lunch? That's just the nearest place to Chakdah So he was very pleased with all the work that you are doing. He's in Vṛndāvana now for Janmāṣṭamī. He hadn't been to Vṛndāvana for five years, so he went to Vṛndāvana for darśana . He may be there even when you go. I'm not sure if he'll be there then. Prabhupāda: You have advised to see our temple? *Jayapatākā: Yes, he'll definitely visit. I also gave him an introduction that if he goes, he should be received there. He's got . . . the present place where the Deities are situated is on four kuttas of land. And apart from that, where Maheśa Paṇḍita's samādhi is, he's got three bighās of land. That's right next to a four*-hundred-year-old temple. Prabhupāda: Chakdah is to the . . . it is from Shrirampur? No. Jayapatākā: No, it's on this side of the Ganges. It's on the eastern side of the Ganges. Prabhupāda: Oh, eastern. Jayapatākā: There there's another temple of Jagadīśa Paṇḍita. Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes. Jayapatākā: That is run by Mādhava Mahārāja. That's in actual Chakdah, and this is another mile or two miles from Chakdah. That Jagadīśa Paṇḍita mandira has got big Jagannātha Deity, and one stick which Jagadīśa Paṇḍita carried the Jagannātha Deity from Jagannātha Purī with. I saw both temples. They told me there that "You should see this temple, very lovable Deities." And I went in. Actually the Deities are very beautiful and very well kept. Just like in Mādhava Mahārāja's mandira , underneath the siṁhāsana they didn't wash. Only in front. But this man, everything was neat and clean. It looked like a thriving, more or less, a thriving place. Prabhupāda: So difficulty is that if we take charge, we may give it for worshiping to one disciple, but the Immigration Department will gag him. That is the difficulty. And we don't have many Indian disciples. Otherwise, we can take all these important places. Jayapatākā: Also, last when I was in Calcutta and I saw Tarun Kanti Ghosh, then he mentioned to me again that the people from Pānihāṭi, this time that they had reached a decision that they wanted to give us the sevā of the Rāghava Paṇḍita's house. Prabhupāda: So we take. Let us take it. Jayapatākā: That's a very important . . . but that's in dilapidated state. Prabhupāda: We shall repair. Jayapatākā: In the letter of the Home Minister where he said that every disciple can stay for two years, possibly if he allowed that in every center, if a minimum of a few people could stay for citizenship, then that might . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: Ordinary, by rotation, and three, two or three or four permanent, by citizen, if he allowed to stay . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: . . . then that would solve the problem. Prabhupāda: Yes. That make. Jayapatākā: Not too many. Prabhupāda: Not too many. Say at least five. They will manage. Jayapatākā: Four or five. All others on rotation. Prabhupāda: Then they will manage. And if they allow two years, that's all right. One devotee comes, another goes, another . . . that will be done. Jayapatākā: Because some that are acclimatized, it is difficult for training up. A few people are better to stay there that are trained up on that basis. I think with Mr. Patnaik and others that . . . because he also wants that Orissan development . . . they can understand that it is important to have one or two people that are known people stay there. If every two years a change is, that is disadvantage. *Prabhupāda: No, our Gaura*-Govinda, I think he is doing there nice. Jayapatākā: He's doing nice in Bhubaneswar. Prabhupāda: Yes. He has already few cottages? Jayapatākā: Of course, I didn't see myself. I heard he has got a few cottages, three, four cottages. Prabhupāda: So our Gargamuni has seen? *Jayapatākā: Yes, I think Gargamuni has seen. Gargamuni is giving him some help. He printed one Orissan book, and he gives him sometimes some books and help. He is fixed up, that Gaura*-Govinda. Prabhupāda: He's fixed up. That's nice. Let him translate in Orissa and, if possible, in Hindi. And give him few devotees. Then he'll be encouraged. *Jayapatākā: I think he has got two or three devotees now. This man himself is a pretty capable worker. He's similar like Prabhu Swarupa, only a little older, little more mature. He's about forty*-five or so. He's been able to collect about, what I can see, about fifty thousand rupees for one nātha-mandira. So he is al . . . and he has a couple thousand people. I heard from the Gauḍīya Maṭha. They say they have big utsavas there. Every year two, three thousand people come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: So he's a capable . . . Prabhupāda: Manager. Jayapatākā: . . . manager in his own right. He wanted to meet you. Prabhupāda: So let us cooperate with him. You take it. And he is there. In the meantime, our men may be trained up. Jayapatākā: He's invited us to come. He has some festival coming. Then we can just go . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . Jayapatākā: . . . and keep a good relationship. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jayapatākā: The main one is in December. Prabhupāda: Our difficulty is this immigration. If we can manage this, then all such places we can take. There is no question. The only thing is that government is gagging. One has to go, and it means ten thousand rupees unnecessarily. If that ten thousand rupees was invested in developing that center, much improvement could be done. But they are gagging. They are dreaming, "CIA." Jayapatākā: When I go back, I'll see this Raghava Pandit, because there the MLA, he himself wants it because that's a very important place and it's going bad. Prabhupāda: So that MLA can help us to get some citizenship. Jayapatākā: With MLA and with Tarun Kanti Ghosh . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: . . . we can use them for pushing, because they are personally interested. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: They'll be able to help. *Prabhupāda: You can bring so many men and keep everyone in charge of such places, and it will develop. Money, there is no scarcity. But the difficulty is as soon as we establish, the Immigration, "You go away." This is . . . what is this? You say the MLA and this Tarun Kanti, "This is our difficulty. Otherwise there is no difficulty. We can take all the charge and develop them very nicely." So if one man is kept in charge, and after few months he's advised, "Go away," then all his training goes to hell and we have to spend another ten thousand rupees. This is the difficulty. What . . . we are not . . . not a single case there is that we have taken any part in politics. So give us some facility. We can take charge of everything. Tell them that actually that is fact, that there is no scarcity of money. We can bring money from America and develop. There is no difficulty at all. The difficulty is the Immigration Department. You can say that "Prabhupāda has put this philosophy, andha . . ." What is that? Paṅgu. Andha*-paṅgu-nyāya. Blind and . . . depends on this . . . blind and . . . I think you have already know. Blind man, lame man. One man is blind, another man is lame. Both of them are useless. But when they combine, the blind man takes the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man gives direction to the blind man, "Go this way. Go this way." So he walks. So both of them are benefited. So America has got money, but blind. And India has got culture, but lame. So let us combine. Then things will be done very nice. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya . Just like I am the same man. I was finding difficulty to start this mission in India, very, very difficult. With great hardship I published three books. But as soon as I went America, the andha-paṅgu-nyāya became successful. So this is the position. *So instead of becoming envious from political . . . we have nothing to do with . . . to the Americans unnecessarily thinking they are CIA. CIA . . . let American money and India's culture combine together, and the whole world will be benefited. America has got enough money, they can spend. Either they give me as the price of my book or anything, money is there like anything. India has got culture. So Indian culture, Vedic culture, Bhagavad*-gītā culture, pushed through American money, the whole world will be benefited. Convince these things. It is not the question of "India," "America," here . . . it is a cultural movement for the benefit of the whole world. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). It is cultural movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is aiming pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi. So "Tarun Babu, you are such a devotee of Caitanya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants it. Pṛthivīte āche yata . . . why don't you help us? Your family is devotee of Lord Caitanya, and this is spreading Caitanya's mission. You should give up everything and join this movement, if you are actually a devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And Prabhupāda says that he knows at your heart you want that Caitanya's movement is spread all over the world, so far he has studied you. So let us join together. Why we should unnecessarily be biased, 'American' and 'Indian' and . . . let us join together and spread Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement all over the . . . they'll be happy. Everyone will be happy. It is such a nice . . . India will be glorified. America will be glorified." If we . . . you came here. You have got so much strength. If you work continually, the whole world will be . . . so those who are offering, take. Take those places. Let us begin. If anyone wants some property, we should take immediately. You said there is already building cost fifty thousand? So that's a property. So if they are offering, you take it and develop. These are historical places. Haridaspur is also historical, I think. Hmm? Jayapatākā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Vena? Venapur is nearby. Two miles. Jayapatākā: Two miles. Two or three miles. Jayapatākā: No, that's been . . . Haridaspur, since time of Lord Caitanya, for many, many years, four hundred . . . right from the time of Lord Caitanya they are calling that. They say there's no doubt that Haridāsa Ṭhākura came that way. Prabhupāda: That must be. It is two, three miles. If he was a person belonging to Venapur, so two, three miles surrounding he must have gone. There is no doubt. And if you can establish good relationship with Pakistan, Bangladesh, then our whole question is solved. Go there, seek some preaching and come here, and all these motorcar problems . . . Gargamuni: I don't want to sell them, you know . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is a very . . . Gargamuni: . . . because we took great hardship to bring them. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: Why we should sell them? They are so useful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: They have done so much work already. *Prabhupāda: It is . . . nowadays motor vehicle is important item for anyone. We have spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness so quickly on account of the modern transport facilities, so we must take it as favorable. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). Anukūla , favorable. Favorable, favorable. It is not we have got . . . (indistinct) . . . with material. That is not Rūpa Gosvāmī's . . . prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi . . . this cars can be used for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why it should be condemned? That is not intelligence. Rūpa Gosvāmī condemns it. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256). Things which is in the service of the Lord, if we think it is material, that is not vairāgya . That is not renouncement. That is foolishness. (break) Jayapatākā: When I was traveling in Burdwan, there we saw the big palace of Mahārāja of Burdwan. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Jayapatākā: Gigantic. He has given that to the university. Then we did a kīrtana at his . . . he has one temple of Rādhā*-kānta. There's . . . present ācārya is about a twenty-two-year-old boy. He's in the sampradāya of Nimbārka Svāmī. So he doesn't know anything about . . . very much about spiritual life, although he is following the tradition. That's such a vast . . . that building is vast. I can't explain to you how big that is. It makes our . . . it's at least five times bigger than our building in all ways, and . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: Than our building, five times bigger, I think, in length and . . . it is a huge compound. He has got much land in the name of the Deity. So he's becoming a member because he wants to read your books to understand about Lord Caitanya and spiritual . . . Prabhupāda: Now for making member you should be very clear so that no misunderstanding can take place. Books, we shall give five books. Gargamuni: Yes, that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: On my form I have already printed we give five books. Prabhupāda: "When you finish, you return this; you take another. When you finish that . . ." In this way. Gargamuni: Well, we've been doing with members in Calcutta, members who want more of the books, they sign the standing order and they pay us for the books. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Gargamuni: Every month. One book a month and they pay. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gargamuni: And they sign the standing order. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Gargamuni: So we have taken many personal standing orders. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gargamuni: We have one boy, Santoṣa. He goes door to door, meeting Bengali men, and they are signing standing orders and taking Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. He has already done four standing orders in about ten days' time. Prabhupāda: Bengalis? Bengalis? Gargamuni: Yes, only to Bengalis. Because it's in their language . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: They can read. Prabhupāda: No, it is in English. Anyone can. Gargamuni: Yes, but Bengalis, they can appreciate more Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Jayapatākā: I tell the members that, "You can't get any Bhāgavatams ," because there's too many. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why not? If he reads, give him. And it is very easy. Suppose I give you five books. You become member. So you read it and take another five books. This five books I can give to another. In this way we can manage. There is no misunderstanding. We give you book for reading, not for selling. Not that, "I have given money. Now so many books, let me sell it and get return as many, as much money as possible." Bāniyā tendency is like that. Jayapatākā: Because they're paying 2,222 rupees. If they only give them five books on exchange, I don't think now they'll be satisfied. Prabhupāda: What for he's taking? Gargamuni: They're satisfied. Prabhupāda: No, no. Jayapatākā: Now we're giving them the books. Prabhupāda: No, no. Jayapatākā: We told them, "You can't have any books." Prabhupāda: What is the cause of dissatisfaction? You take the books for reading, so you finish this and again we give five books. We take back this and give you in exchange. So actually we give them five books for good. That we are prepared. Five books at fifty rupees each, that one or 250. Jayapatākā: But they're giving two thousand rupees. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gargamuni: That's for membership. That isn't just for books. Sometimes they stay in our mandiras . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: We pay for their prasāda . Prabhupāda: And three days free boarding and lodging. In this way things should be clear so that in future they may not complain, "Ah, we . . ." as they are doing. Somebody is coming, "Oh, we have given 1100 rupees to live here forever." Some ladies came like that. Gargamuni: Yes, I know. I met that lady. Prabhupāda: Yes, they take it, advantage, "Oh, we shall get all books, we shall live forever. There is no charge, pay." That misunderstanding should be . . . Gargamuni: So now we say they can live forever, but as we live. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. That . . . that you can do. Gargamuni: Not that they will get special privilege of . . . as hotel. They must live like us. Prabhupāda: But they want free hotel. That is . . . they want free. Jayapatākā: Sometimes old man who has got some money . . . Prabhupāda: No, old . . . old man is different. Jayapatākā: He wants to live, and he is too weak to do anything. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jayapatākā: He wants to chant and give some money. Prabhupāda: Let him purchase one room. Let him live . . . for life he can live, and we give him prasādam free. Jayapatākā: Purchase one room. Eight, ten thousand rupees. Prabhupāda: No, fifty thousand, I think. In Vṛndāvana we are selling sixty thousand. Sixty thousand. Gargamuni: No, but those rooms have attached bath. In our room there is no attached bath. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say in Vṛndāvana, that's all right. Or anywhere. Whatever money is fixed up, let him pay, live in his room comfortably, and we give him free prasādam . There is no harm. But he must attend the ārati , and rules and regulations. There is no . . . Jayapatākā: No tea, nor . . . all the rules he should follow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: Attend the program. Prabhupāda: Even if old men cannot follow, still, he should be given. Gargamuni: What about tea? Prabhupāda: Tea, tea can . . . then he'll caught. That is not. Gargamuni: Because the old men, they are addicted to the tea. Prabhupāda: No, what . . . many old men, they can give it up. Gargamuni: We will promise them cow's milk. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Gargamuni: Pure cow's milk. Prabhupāda: That "Instead of this tea, you take milk." Little milk, that is beneficial. So membership should be clearly defined, so that they may not misunderstand. Gargamuni: But we're not having trouble now. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gargamuni: Because we printed a new form. And generally, when members come they always donate more, so we give them one book. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: They always . . . I visited one hundred members, and all of those old members, they gave another one thousand. Prabhupāda: Just see. Yes, they will give. I know. Gargamuni: They'll give if you treat them nicely. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: And I gave them one book, and they're satisfied. Prabhupāda: Any person who has money, they'll receive. So many places they are offering us land . . . Gargamuni: There's another man who wants to give a big property. When you come to Calcutta he wants to see you. Prabhupāda: In Calcutta? Gargamuni: No, it's in Rajasthan. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gargamuni: It's a palace which he's not using. And he met you in Bombay. He also visited our centers in Paris and New York. He's a Marwari man, very rich, very nice. He's also donated good sums to the Society. So now he wants to meet you, and he wants someone to go there. So I told him we will go and look at it. Prabhupāda: Where? Gargamuni: It's in Rajasthan. Prabhupāda: Rajasthan? Where? Which side. Gargamuni: It's near Bikaner. It's with agricultural land and a big house. They said they spent about fifteen lacks on it, marble house. The family is not using it. They have no use. We're getting a lot of offers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: But because of Māyāpur, I have not taken them very seriously, because we already have huge affair in Māyāpur. But if you like, we can see. Prabhupāda: No, kāca dhun kāca kaphe : "If some property is offered, we should take it." That is the . . . and washed cloth, jācā dhun kācā kapha . If somebody offers you very nicely washed cloth, you should use it. And some property, you must use it. They are . . . you can utilize this property by inhabiting the persons, if they are inclined to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are rotting outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They may come to live. We are for everyone. So he . . . where does he reside, this gentleman? Gargamuni: In Calcutta. His businesses are there. He's a wealthy man, very nice man. Prabhupāda: Where does he live? Gargamuni: He's lives in Bara Bazar. His name is Mr. Buwalka. Prabhupāda: Bara Bazar Marwaris are all businessmen. Gargamuni: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is combination of rich men, poor men, for Kṛṣṇa. The same— andha*-paṅgu-nyāya . Both of them are useless separately, and when they combine in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are all useful. It is very good example. And there is another example, that a piece of wire is falling, rotting, and a piece of bamboo, rotting, and a piece of squash skin is rotting. And one gentleman collected. He nicely trimmed the piece and dried the squash, the outer portion, and took the bamboo and nicely cut it and joined the string, and this became a sitar: ting, ting, ting . So it is the intelligent person who joins all these things and makes it very useful. These are the examples. The bamboo alone is useless, and a small piece of wire, useless, and a thrown-out squash skin, useless. But if you can join them together, you can " ting, ting ." Similarly, andha-paṅgu-nyāya . Here is a lame man, here is a blind man. All right, combine together and use them. That is wanted. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhi labhate . This wire does not change. It is wire, it remains wire. But when it is combined, it is useful. So our propaganda is, "They are separately planning useless. Let them combine together in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All this planning shall be successful. Jayapatākā: We were all useless in the West, but you have come and then engaged us. *Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Nobody is useless. I was also useless. I could not do in India alone anything. This is . . . again the same example: (laughs) two useless makes useful. Intelligence alone cannot work. Money is required. One man was challenged, "You have no intelligence." So he said, "Yes." He was searching these . . . "No, why you are searching here?" "No, here is intelligence. If here is money, then my intelligence can work. Otherwise what is the use of intelligence?" But he was searching here, "Whether I have got intelligence?" Simply intelligence . . . in industry also: land, labor, capital, organization—four things needed. Simple capital will not do. Simple organization will not do. A man may have very good brain power, organization, but if he has no money—useless. So four things required: land, labor, capital, organization. That minister in Raṅganātha, he is inclined to spend huge income of Tirupati, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But he is bound up by other colleagues. They are applying the money. So he's willing to call all the ministers if I can convince them. I shall try it. Just . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, yajñārthe karma . Everyone is karmī . So the karmīs , the village cultivators or big men industrialists, they are going to Tirupati. Whatever then can spare, they are offering. That is yajñārthe . If this money is taken and again if it is brought into karmī , then it is misleading. Karmīs are giving them. Just like people are giving us money. They are karmīs . But because they are giving us and we are engaging the money in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so the money is fully utilized. But if this money again taken and again to the karmīs . . . Jayapatākā: Without any spiritual work. Prabhupāda: Then it is a farce. His purpose is served, but one who is misleading the . . . he becomes criminal. Jayapatākā: The man who gives, his purpose is served. Prabhupāda: His purpose is served. Jayapatākā: The man who takes the money is . . . *Prabhupāda: He is to be punished. His misusing. Suppose in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement somebody gives us money. He is giving good faith that "It is very good organization." But if I misspend that money, then I am responsible. Then I'll be punished. His business is finished. Kṛṣṇa noted that he has given his hard*-earned money for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If I take that money . . . instead of doing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if I use it for my sense gratification, then I'll be . . . then I'll be responsible. What is the use of Kṛṣṇa's money being used for industry? Any purpose outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . let this money be utilized for spreading the glories of Kṛṣṇa. But they do not recognize Kṛṣṇa. All the so-called Bhagavad-gītā readers, they want to kill Kṛṣṇa. Gargamuni: Yes, that's a fact. The Calcutta plan that you had, it is still under consideration. At first the Calcutta corporation refused, but then Abhirāma saw the Minister of Municipal Affairs, Mr. Subrata Mukerjee. Prabhupāda: So I gave the meaning. Gargamuni: He said: "No, I want this." But there's still a problem, is that they'll allow a monument, but they don't want the Deity. They'll allow us to build a monument for Bhaktivedanta Swami but no Deity. Prabhupāda: Well, then take this proposal, "All right, no Deity." We shall hold meetings, lecture. What is that? In the park people come. And we decorate the whole hall with pictures. Gradually we worship one picture. Gargamuni: Later on, maybe we can put Deity. Once it's built, they cannot tell us to get out. Jayapatākā: That's what Mr. Choudhuri said. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: He said, "You can take, and once a week you bring Deity and put, and other time you just do kīrtana ." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jayapatākā: One week, it stays one week. Then it stays one month . . . Gargamuni: We can take the Deity for a walk around the park, and then into the hall for two hours . . . Prabhupāda: For some time, two hours. Gargamuni: And then take out. Prabhupāda: Yes, then do that. And we are inviting everyone. We have no distinction. Anyone can come to the park. Convince them. (break) "Come on! Take prasādam sumptuously." They'll be satisfied. They are hungry. Actually they are hungry, poorly paid, capitalist and worker. The trouble is, capitalists, they are taking all the profit, and they are enjoying life in wine and women. Naturally the worker will see that, "Why? We are working so hard, and they are making profit, and they are enjoying, and we do not live in a very nice house; it is a slum." Naturally they will be envious. If the capitalists spend the money for Kṛṣṇa consciousness—in each and every factory they hold festivals and give them eatables like anything—everything will be successful. Gargamuni: We tell them that "If you give your Kṛṣṇa tax, this will save you from the income tax." Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: "Because they are raiding . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: ". . . because you are hoarding. But if you give . . ." Prabhupāda: The industrialists . . . that is also one of our programs. Let them hold festivals every Sunday, as we hold. And we shall go and have kīrtana and sumptuous feeding give. They'll be very satisfied. And instead of giving the income tax, let them spend in this way. Convince them. Jayapatākā: At the factories. Weekly foodstuffs. They feed all the workers. We'll prepare the prasāda , offer to the Deity and feed to all the workers. Prabhupāda: They'll be satisfied. Gargamuni: Presently the building they're in now is unbearable, as far as living Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: Well, it is old building. Water supply is very bad. Prabhupāda: So you cannot . . . Gargamuni: It is a rotten building. Prabhupāda: Rotten cannot be repaired? Gargamuni: No. And the landlord won't allow him here. Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: Because he wants us to get us out . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, but he . . . Gargamuni: But he won't allow any repair. You have to have his permission to get repair. If you don't get landlord's permission, then you cannot repair. You're forced to live in a slum. Prabhupāda: No, no, you require permission of the landlord if he pays. Gargamuni: No, no. Even if he doesn't. Any construction . . . Prabhupāda: No, I don't think that is the law. What is the law? I am feeling inconvenience, I cannot repair? Gargamuni: No. Jayapatākā: No, how that can be? You can tell the police. Gargamuni: No, then you have to go to the court, and that takes ten years. Just like he's in the court for five years now. He is not taking our rent. Prabhupāda: Then let us repair. Let him go to the court. Because by repairing, we have broken the law, so let him go to the court. (laughter) The same logic. Gargamuni: Actually, Abhirāma . . . also, the facility for living there is only good for five or six persons. Otherwise it is not good. So they want to get a building. Prabhupāda: So what happened to the corner house? What happened to the corner house? Gargamuni: No, that is still there. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you purchase it? Gargamuni: Which corner one? The one right across? Prabhupāda: Yes. Left corner. Gargamuni: No, but that's even worse condition than what we have. Prabhupāda: No, no, we break it and prepare nice temple. Gargamuni: He went to see that man. That man, he doesn't want to sell. Prabhupāda: What was the . . . Gargamuni: He's one of these Marwaris who is very miser. He himself lives in a slum. Jayapatākā: But right now Abhirāma hasn't found another place. Gargamuni: I just talked to him. Let me talk . . . Jayapatākā: He told me ten minutes ago . . . (indistinct) Gargamuni: So they are thinking they want to get . . . Prabhupāda: And one thing is that next thing will be . . . now there are many flats. Gargamuni: Now, we have one flat that we are renting. Prabhupāda: Not renting. Purchase. Gargamuni: Well, the only thing is with these flats in Calcutta, they are so mismanaged, these new places. They become a slum in two months. In Bombay the flats are managed nicely, but in Calcutta when they build a new one, within two months the whole thing is filthy dirty, the elevators don't work. It's not worth purchasing a flat. I have one now. I am renting. It's on the twelfth floor, and the members of our traveling party stay there, you see. There is nice water and so many things. But the building is so mismanaged. Who wants to stay there more than a year? We need our own place. Then we can keep it clean and nice. Prabhupāda: Where is that own place? Gargamuni: Well, there are buildings that we can get. In Ballygunge we have some offers. That's if this park doesn't come through. If the park does not come through, then we can . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all try to make . . . this is the best place in Calcutta. Jayapatākā: I personally went with Abhirāma to see the minister, and the minister didn't give any stipulation. He was only for the project. His only reservation was that, he said first of all, politically, he doesn't know about our Society. If the government Home Department says that it's all right . . . as far as the program is, the program, the plan that was given, he totally accepts it as it is. That's when I saw him. Since then, Abhirāma has not seen him. But the people in the corporation, they have refused it without his sanction, and they have written him that the minister said he does not want it. When we took that—we showed it to the minister—he said: "This is completely wrong." He said: "No, no, no! There is some misunderstanding." Then he said, "You write me a letter that there is some misunderstanding, and I will take care of this matter." Gargamuni: So he wrote the letter, and now they forward that letter back to the Calcutta corporation without a letter from the minister. Because he went back there. He just told me that. So it's back again to the same guys who, you know . . . of course, I don't know what letter he has written, but the officers would not tell us anything. Anyway, we will try our best. Prabhupāda: Why not take the Victoria Memorial? What is, they are doing? Jayapatākā: I have never gone inside. I heard it is simply old English armor and some swords. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen. Gargamuni: And the marble is turning black. Prabhupāda: Because they don't . . . Gargamuni: They don't clean. Jayapatākā: How they can afford to maintain such a building? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa will maintain. Jayapatākā: Oh, we can. Prabhupāda: We can utilize it properly. Jayapatākā: And we'll have British pūjārīs . For the glory of Queen Victoria. Prabhupāda: Victoria. Let them send. Tell them that we shall bring. Victoria has . . . let them send to worship Victoria with prasādam of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is real Victoria Memorial. Jayapatākā: That is putra . (loud kīrtana in the background throughout) *Prabhupāda: Yes, great*-grandson. Putra is great . . . the putra was that Edward Seventh. Jayapatākā: No, but to lift from hell. When she gets prasādam . *Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Puṁ*-nārakāt trāyate iti putra . Victoria died in 1903. There was great function, and this building started in 1903, and it was finished in 1922. Jayapatākā: After her death. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Curzon's plan . . . Lord Curzon wanted that let there be a king of India from the family of Victoria. He gave this plan. But this Parliament did not want that Englishman shall make India home. Then his interest will be in India. Just like America. Englishmen, as they made America their home, they declared independence. Australia. As soon as you make a home, then the more interest will be in India. Washington was Englishman. Was he not? Washington? Gargamuni: Yes. Well, everyone came from England. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not from England many. But ordinary . . . so Englishman, why he declared war against the English? Jayapatākā: Their interest was in America more than England. Prabhupāda: Yes. Naturally. So as soon as you make home, your interest will be at home. So that was their policy. In those days no Englishman was allowed to purchase property in India. All his income, money, should go to England. So the Muhammadan Moguls, they made their home in India. Therefore they stayed for eight hundred years. They would not have gone. Indians did not like to finish the Muhammadan kingdom. No, never. It is the Englishmen. They penetrated and finished them, not the Indians. Indians were not against the Muhammadans. They are going on. Little bit discrepancies were there, especially during the time of Aurangzeb. He was bigot Muhammadan. He hated the Hindus. Not hated, but he was a . . . was is called, bigot, Muhammadan? He did not hate. That was not his qualification. Aurangzeb gave many contributions to the Vṛndāvana temples. Yes. And Aurangzeb's grandfather, Jahangir, he gave many temples to many brāhmins . There is one village just opposite Vṛndāvana, Keśīghāṭa: Jahangipura. This village was given to a brāhmin . From the income he was maintaining a temple. And Aurangzeb . . . you know Sringarpat Goswami? Devotee (1): (entering room) Śrīla Prabhupāda, Shankar Kumar has brought the food and all these things to his place. So if you'd like to go afterwards or take here, or what would you like? Prabhupāda: No, no, let them take. Devotee (1): Pradyumna thought that you wanted to take with them. Prabhupāda: So I can take, but you'll take . . . Devotee (1): They'll have their food, and you will also have . . . Prabhupāda: No, what is that? Let them take here in the temple. Devotee (1): In the temple? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I will have to take at least one hour. How they will wait? Jayapatākā: Better they take separately. Prabhupāda: So Indians did not like that Muhammadans may go away. Rather, when Shri Rajdullah was arrested by flight, the Bengali zamindars , they protested. Rani Bhavani, she protested, although it is alleged that Shri Rajdullah kidnapped her daughter. But if Shri Rajdullah kidnapped her daughter, how he (she) supported Shri Rajdullah? There are so many falsehoods. On the whole, the Indians never planned to drive away the Muhammadans. They never. That's a fact. They were happy because there was no exploitation. All these Muhammadans, they made their home in India, so whatever lavishly they were spending, that was coming to the Indians. In Tollygunge there is a man—now they are aristocratic family—he was servant of the nawab , and he stolen one shoes, one feet, which was bedecked with jewels. So by selling that jewel he became a rich man. So although they were using jeweled shoes, but it was in India. They were satisfied that, "I am nawab . I am using jeweled shoes." But the jeweled shoes was in India, and these Englishmen, they have taken away all the jewels even from the walls, and keeping them in their homes—all gold, jewels, everything. Gargamuni: Yeah. That's a fact that in those old houses, the Marwaris, they have inherited all of these pieces. Now they have it all. In the old British houses many Marwaris have taken over, and they have inherited all of the treasures of the British. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gargamuni: Many antiques. Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyway, if I take away something from you in this room and I keep it somewhere in this room, then where is the difference either with you or with me? That was going on during Muhammadans' ruling. But these people, they took away from the room. Gargamuni: Exploitation. *Prabhupāda: So India became poverty*-stricken. Jayapatākā: One more thing is that locally, that bank that opened there . . . Prabhupāda: They are . . . they are crazy fellows. Gargamuni: That bank is worthless. They don't know anything about banking. They are farmers. Prabhupāda: Forget it. If bank like Central Bank or United, that bank . . . they are useless, and they are asking ten lakhs of rupees deposit. Jayapatākā: Five lakhs . They will give interest. They'd like a fixed amount . . . Prabhupāda: So who believes them? Gargamuni: No, but I don't trust that bank because they already tried . . . they kept fifty thousand rupees. It took us two weeks to get that. Jayapatākā: They didn't have my signature. Gargamuni: It doesn't matter, though. It's still . . . Jayapatākā: No bank would have given. Without signature no . . . Gargamuni: Still, they're not a good bank. They have three . . . Prabhupāda: They are not . . . it is a small cultivator's cooperative. Gargamuni: I wouldn't trust a small bank. At any time they can lose. They only have three or four branches. Jayapatākā: They're backed by the Reserve Bank. Gargamuni: It doesn't matter. Jayapatākā: What do you mean, it doesn't matter? Gargamuni: No big bank . . . (indistinct) . . . what big bank? Prabhupāda: Then who is going to deposit five lakhs of rupees with them? That is not possible. Jayapatākā: Yes, that's all right, but as far as the bank goes . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. We can go on without the business. We cannot deposit. Jayapatākā: If any banker goes there, they'll want a deposit. But if a big bank . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. But why should we deposit five lakhs of rupees? The money value is decreasing daily. Jayapatākā: We get credit. Prabhupāda: If you deposit five lakhs now, it will decrease value in five, ten months. The purchasing power of money is decreasing. Now what you can purchase with five lakhs of rupees, after five years you'll require ten lakhs . So your money will decrease. And if you invest that money in land, after five years it will increase to its full extent. So why should we waste our money? What is the benefit? Gargamuni: The farmers don't keep their money in the banks. The government is trying to force the farmers to keep their money in the bank. The farmers don't want to do it. Prabhupāda: Farmers' policy is if they have got money, they purchase land. Therefore they are making ceiling. The whole policy is not so good. Farmers, as soon as they get some money, they want to invest the land, but the ceiling . . . so they cannot invest money in the land, they give to the bank. And as soon as you keep money in the bank it will decrease the value. This is . . . Gargamuni: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Money is decreased, value of, all over the world. Because it is not money actually; it is paper, cheating. Real money is gold, they will not allow to keep this gold. The whole policy is vicious. If I purchase gold with five lakhs of rupees, then it is real money, and after five years I can sell it seven lakhs . That they will not allow. Therefore I . . . my policy is that whatever money is there, spend. Don't keep. In land, and produce food. That is the best use of. All buildings, government, there is no need of. And instead of keeping money and take interest, you print books. That is also good. You can sell. Or you purchase land for producing food. Gargamuni: If we stock money, then there'll be no preaching. But if we print books, then we have to sell the books. So that is preaching. Prabhupāda: Therefore I am insisting all over, "Print any book." Never mind either Hindi or English or any . . . print book and keep it in stock, nicely. Gargamuni: And gradually we will sell. Then we will preach. Otherwise, if we put it in . . . Prabhupāda: That is the purpose of my Bhaktivedanta Trust. Fifty percent must be spent for printing and fifty percent for building. That's all. No money. Don't keep any account. Gargamuni: Then the government will never get envious, because there's nothing there. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we haven't got to keep so many accountant, auditors, and other nonsense, unnecessary expenditure. As soon as there is collection, invest the money in some building or in making some book, book printing. Follow this policy. I am very much eager. I have got money here and there, but I want to spend it in this way. So therefore I am advising take this. We shall invest renovating them and in developing them. Spend money. Don't keep it. Jayapatākā: Yes. So I'll tell them our policy is changed. We don't keep any more money in fixed deposit because it's a losing bargain? Prabhupāda: That's it. Actually it is losing. Actually it is losing. Every day the price . . . just like the price of rice has increased. Jayapatākā: It is up and down. *Prabhupāda: Up and down, now . . . take it. When it goes up it does not come down, generally. So this is practical example. Two months ago you were purchasing two rupees—now two*-eighty. So where is the value of the money? Gargamuni: If we invest in books . . . just like this little pamphlet I printed. It cost me fifty paisa . If we sell it in one month . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: . . . then we will get fifty paisa profit. We will make double our investment. Prabhupāda: That was nicely . . . that was nicely printed. So in this way invest in books or land. We don't want to keep cash. Jayapatākā: And if they want to keep branch or not, that is up to them. We can't give them any money. If they want to keep branch or not, that's up to them. Prabhupāda: That should be up to them. If they keep branch we can take that. They'll go on. Gargamuni: We will tell them frankly that for us to invest in books is more profitable, because after one month we get more. Prabhupāda: We cannot keep money, and without any . . . they will give interest. What is that interest? And he said we have printed fifty paisa and selling hundred paisa . So that much interest they cannot give. They'll give, utmost, ten percent. Ten percent per annum—not even one percent in a month. Gargamuni: Your books will be our bank. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got business. Why shall I keep in the bank? This is the policy. If your money is idle, we can spend it in our books, in our purchasing land, in temple, constructing temple, developing . . . so where you got that water? Water's there? Don't touch that water. Hari-śauri: No, there's one bucket of mixed with half a bucket of hot water. Yesterday what happened, the tank, some blockage there was . . . (end) (Conversation About Mayapura Construction) Gargamuni: . . . to keep it going we took a minimum amount of ten thousand a month. We were getting ten thousand a month. But to finish the building we require more, more per month, because ten thousand is just the most minimum amount just to keep it going. Prabhupāda: So you are collecting? Gargamuni: Yes, but that is going for maintenance. I give twenty thousand a month now. Prabhupāda: Maintenance, twenty thousand? Gargamuni: Well, that includes agriculture, the gurukula —everything. It includes everything. Jayapatākā: Actual maintenance, about eight or ten thousand. Other things, landscaping and other things . . . Gargamuni: Landscaping . . . we built you a very wonderful park, very nice park. We've also put a walkway around the ghāṭa with stairs. Prabhupāda: Now, what is the position of our big project? Jayapatākā: That's what I was going to tell you first. So what happened was that the application we had given to the Chief Secretary and the Board of Revenue, that had gone from them to Mr. Choudhuri, who in turn had sent it on to the Commissioner. The Commissioner sent to District Magistrate. The Commissioner sent to the District Magistrate. So District Magistrate, he gave a favorable reply. Prabhupāda: He has given? Jayapatākā: Favorable reply. He said that, "This is a good project. It will help the district." He only said that they should maybe get 300 acres instead of 350, or like that. He reduced something. Then it went back again to the Commissioner, who was a Christian. He's the one I mentioned. He wrote bad report. Then when Choudhuri got it, he wrote a very good report. He wrote a very good report. He said that there's no question of Hindu or Muslim. Just like in Bangkok they have that one big Viṣṇu Temple. That is a . . . or the Taj Mahal. This is no longer any type of religious . . . this is for all mankind. Similarly, this Māyāpur will be a monument for the whole mankind. Prabhupāda: For the whole world. Jayapatākā: For the whole world. So in this way he gave a very good, very good statement. Then that went to the Chief Secretary again, who had to give it to the Chief Minister. So the Chief Minister, he does not have a good opinion. He did not have a good opinion of our Society. Prabhupāda: Who is the Chief Minister? Jayapatākā: Siddhanta Shankaraya. Prabhupāda: He is very expert man. *Jayapatākā: He's a very expert . . . he's one of their chief politicians from India. He used to be Education Minister of Indira Gandhi. He's one of her right*-hand men. Gargamuni: Very important for Bengal. Bengal is the most important state, and he has very prominent position to the Prime Minister as advisor. Jayapatākā: So at that time, I couldn't write him a letter. He had written that . . . something which made Mr. Choudhuri very angry. He wrote something which made Mr. Choudhuri very angry. Made also the Chief Secretary angry. He wrote . . . Gargamuni: No, who wrote? Jayapatākā: The Chief Minister wrote. He said, "Because of the impassioned . . ." He said: "I would have refused this application except for the impassioned appeal of one of my senior officers, namely Mr. Choudhuri. They are asking for three hundred acres of land, but the East India Company, they asked only twenty acres of land, and they have conquered the whole of India." (loud kīrtana in background) Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: "East India Company, they have asked only twenty acres of land, but they have conquered the whole of India." Gargamuni: "They ruled India for two hundred years." Jayapatākā: Oh. "Ruled India for two hundred years." Prabhupāda: Who said? Chief Minister? Gargamuni: The Chief Minister wrote that the East India Company purchased twenty acres of land and ruled India for two hundred years. That was his reply to our application. Prabhupāda: Chief Minister said? Gargamuni: Yes. They're afraid that by taking this, we will rule India. Jayapatākā: Anyway, that's a very frivolous statement. That was a frivolous statement. Prabhupāda: No, that, ruling over India, they politically ruled. Jayapatākā: But we're not politicians. Prabhupāda: Even if we are rule, we shall rule spiritually. We have nothing to do with politics. Jayapatākā: That's the point. That's why even the Chief Secretary, he became . . . Gargamuni: They didn't take it seriously. The Chief Secretary and Mr. Choudhuri did not take that very seriously, that comment. Jayapatākā: It didn't end there. Gargamuni: It's a frivolous comment. Jayapatākā: It's progressed. That's one month ago. Since then it's progressed. Then he said, "Let there be more inquiry on the nature of the Society and its source of funds, etc . . ." In the meantime, many people had come and inquired about our Society—CID, CI . . . Gargamuni: Also the industrial . . . one industrial from the . . . they want to know how we will arrange for so many work for so many people. I met them there. They want to know, "How will you get everyone to work?" They sent . . . many, from many different governmental departments, came, inquiring, "How you will do this?" And they all went away satisfied. We showed them the handloom; we showed them the gośālā , we showed them the children. Even Tarun Kanti Ghosh, he came, and we lined up fifty children, and they read the Gītār Gān , and he almost started crying. He liked it so much. He said: "Oh, you have done so nicely with the children." So they were impressed with the work. Jayapatākā: So at that time Mr. Choudhuri, he was put down. But he said: "I have not yet lost hope." He said, but he was put down a bit. That night personally talked to the Minister of Nadia, Anandamoy Visvas, who I personally met last year. And he was telling him that for Nadia he should sponsor this. Even the negative political issue with the Chief Minister, he should push it through. In the meantime, I wrote an application to Tarun Kanti Ghosh, who up to now we hadn't asked. Because it had already passed all the preliminaries. And I went and spoke to him. I told him that, "It has already passed all the government stages. Now simply the Chief Minister has to be convinced." He said: "No, no. You are of good integrity. There is no doubt about ISKCON. I will immediately tell him." He called up the Chief Secretary. The Chief Minister was out then. Later on he talked to Chief Minister. The next time I saw Mr. Choudhuri . . . before that, he told me . . . that's when he told me that, "Maybe Prabhupāda should see the Chief Minister." Now he said it's not necessary. He liked your reply to them. After that, I saw Mr. Tarun Kanti Ghosh. Then I saw Choudhuri again a week later. At that time he said: "Now everything is changed." He said: "Now the Chief Minister, that problem is solved." He has written that, "Let Mr. Choudhuri take the decision. Let him take the decision. But I cannot simply take the decision. They'll say I am biased. I must work in the ordinary ways of the government. But there is no trouble now. You have waited so long. You wait another thirty or sixty days." He said: "Wait another sixty days, and then you'll get it." Prabhupāda: When he wrote? When he wrote this? Jayapatākā: He spoke to me just two weeks ago. Two weeks ago. Then, last week, again I saw him just before Janmāṣṭamī. I asked him . . . then I gave him invitation to Janmāṣṭamī. At that time he told me that . . . after was this bad publicity. He told me, "Now this bad publicity, I think it has given us some benefit." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, could you give darśana over here later? They've all been waiting for your darśana . Gargamuni: Hey, wait a minute. We're talking about Māyāpur. We're talking about Māyāpur. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: Is there . . .? Is there necessity? Gargamuni: There's no necessary. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. But we had you down on schedule for a lecture. So I said that you're not lecturing, but they just wanted to have a look at you. Later we can have . . . Prabhupāda: Tomorrow I shall. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Tomorrow. Okay. Prabhupāda: Tomorrow I shall lecture. Gargamuni: Go ahead. *Jayapatākā: Now, just a few days ago, when I invited him for Janmāṣṭamī, then I asked him what the . . . he told me at that time, he said: "Now . . ." He had recently received a phone call from the Chief Secretary. "You see? Now your favorite project is going to be spoiled." Then he went over to see the Chief Secretary. He showed him an article from the Rāja*-Sabhā , how the member of Parliament had given this challenge that, "Are these people CIA or this or that?" Then Mr. Choudhuri said: "Sir, I am not afraid." He said: "Why not?" "Because I have you, don't I?" Then the Chief said: "Yes. You have won me over. I believe in this project." Then he said that now the Chief Minister has agreed that the project be sanctioned. But he said that, "I don't want to take the full brunt of the decision. Let the Nadia District Planning Committee take the decision." Prabhupāda: Nadia? Jayapatākā: District Planning Committee. So the head of the Nadia District Planning Committee is that minister, Anandamoy Visvas. So I went to him, and I gave him an invitation for the Janmāṣṭamī. When I saw him, then . . . you gave me that letter. So I showed him that letter where you have said that, "Every day we're selling sixty thousand dollars' of books, and I thank you for helping me." I said: "Sir, we are simply doing Prabhupāda's order. This is not our work. It is not a foreign work. It is his work; we are simply doing it. He is selling so many books that he wants to invest some of the money to develop Mahāprabhu's birth site. That is all. He has got the money. Why he should not invest it?" He said: "I am going to have a meeting of the committee next week, and I'm going to push your project through. We're going to pass it." That is the last word I heard. So it looks that everything is very good right now . . . but we have to keep our Society very pure, because they're investigating us very strong. All the time they're having people watching us. Gargamuni: There is now in Māyāpur . . . the talk is, there's some special advisors to the Prime Minister are in Māyāpur now investigating to make sure. *Jayapatākā: Some of the local people that were working with me, getting petitions, they came and told me that some people from Delhi or outside were inquiring about us, about Bhavānanda Goswami, about Jayapatākā, about this project, about how the devotees are dealing with the public, whether we are doing any anti*-Indian work. All sorts of questions they are asking. So it's very important that we keep very up-and-up right now. All the time. But otherwise the government, they are happy with our work. And so far, Mr. Choudhuri said, other people have indicated that they have found no bad report about our Society, although they are looking so hard. Therefore they are passing. Gargamuni: The State government is very favorable. But the doubt, of course, is coming from the central government because they don't know us. But the state government, they are very favorable. Everyone we've met within the State, they like us very much. They like the Society, they like your work, and, of course, they like your books. Jayapatākā: The local police intelligence officer in Krishnagar, when I went to see him, he told me, Ami tomake bharatiya nagarik kore dicchi. Ami kore dicchi. (I am making you an Indian citizen. I am making you.) Like that, he told me. "Definitely I make you an Indian citizen." So they are favorable. I don't know how much they can do, but locally they are favorable. Gargamuni: Now on the weekend we have tours of the building. Many groups of people come. Fifty in a group sometimes, to come and visit. Prabhupāda: Tourists. Gargamuni: Yes, tourists, and we take them on tour of the building. That's Subhaga. He takes them on tour and he gives some preaching. So many people are coming. Prabhupāda: Subhaga is in charge of that? Gargamuni: Yes, he does. Jayapatākā: Others are there also. One new boy is very good. He's . . . Gargamuni: Kiśora. Jayapatākā: Kiśora dāsa. He's also translating. He's a little more strong than Subhaga, although new. Very good boy, very humble. He's from a good family also. Prabhupāda: What is the flood situation? Jayapatākā: Flood situation . . . Gargamuni: Very mild monsoon this year. Almost drought. Almost. Very mild. Very little rain. Prabhupāda: Rain is not very strong. Gargamuni: No. The monsoon is not strong. Jayapatākā: Our aus (a type of rice) crop has been hampered because of lack of rain and early monsoon. Only in the past week there's been a little rain. Otherwise, before, there was very little rain. Not fully drought . . . Gargamuni: But less rain than previous years. Jayapatākā: Everything is very green and nice, but so far as agriculture is concerned . . . Prabhupāda: It requires more rain. Jayapatākā: It requires more rain and early tide. Right now the river is full, but it is not flooding. It is full. See, Mr. Choudhuri, he was interested. At that time when the Chief Minister wrote that, then he wrote this, that "If you were to see the Chief Minister, then this type of letter could be submitted and he would definitely see you," although it is not necessary to see him. Prabhupāda: Do you think it is? Jayapatākā: No, it's not necessary to personally see him. You might write . . . when you come to Māyāpur we'll write him invitation that he can come and see and visit you there. That was better. Mr. Choudhuri said that, "Your Guru Mahārāja, he has also got the Vaiṣṇava pride not to see the politicians." He said: "This is a good stand. I respect this very much." Actually he mentioned once to Abhirāma confidentially that, "If this project comes through, then you'll be requiring some liaison officer, because there will be so many government things. At that time I can work for you as your permanent advisor and go to Delhi and here and there and do all the work." I think he wants a job. Prabhupāda: I thought that Mr. Choudhuri would do everything, but that is not the position. Jayapatākā: Almost he is doing everything. Actually he's trying to say that he did everything. But I think that when we saw Tarun Kanti Ghosh, that cleared up . . . that matter with Chief Minister, that cleared that up. As far as the other lower secretary men are . . . Mr. Choudhuri did everything. The Chief Minister doubt, I think Tarun helped clear that up. That's the only thing that he couldn't change the mind of is the Chief Minister. Otherwise he did everything else, almost, you can say. Gargamuni: He came on the last ekādaśī . Just last ekādaśī , what, ten days ago? Seven days ago he came for the ekādaśī to Māyāpur just to see. Prabhupāda: Who? Gargamuni: Tarun Kanti Ghosh. He took prasādam , he took the ekādaśī , and he liked it very much. *Jayapatākā: I just saw him also just before Janmāṣṭamī, and he was still very favorable then. We talked for about an hour and a half. He introduced me to all the MLAs of the twenty*-four paraganās . Prabhupāda: Tarun Kanti? Jayapatākā: When I go preaching, then I go, and the government MLA and Congress people, they also help me. They arrange sometimes places for me to stay and big program. And they protect that no people cause us any disturbances. Although we don't . . . Prabhupāda: What about our Godbrothers? Jayapatākā: The Godbrothers . . . Prabhupāda: They are also opposing? Jayapatākā: Subhaga made a very bad . . . Bhavānanda sent him over to invite Śrīdhara Swami for Janmāṣṭamī, as a show of respect. When he went there, and Śrīdhara Swami . . . he's not so clever boy. So Śrīdhara Swami asked him that, "Oh, what about your land acquisition?" What does he know about land acquisition? We never discussed anything with him. He can only know by hearsay or any . . . so then Subhaga said: "Oh, it's in the hands of the Chief Minister," for which I reprimanded him. He should have denied any knowledge of the matter at all. "Why you have given any information?" But they are very interested in these things, and maybe they are still trying to stop it, but I don't think they have the power. Prabhupāda: They have no power. Jayapatākā: They are the ones who have raised up that first petition, that Surendra dāsa, I think, and others. They are behind that. They themselves were in the market trying to get petition against, but no one would sign for them. We made a little of political . . . because in Māyāpur now we have got seventy percent of the people are . . . Prabhupāda: In our favor. Jayapatākā: In our favor strongly. And only a minority are actively opposed, one percent even. And thirty per cent are in doubt. So, so much so that even I saw recently the MLA who was previously against us. And when I saw him I invited him for Janmāṣṭamī, and he said what about our program for a bridge? I said: "Oh, yes, I discussed with Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he suggested having a floating bridge to Navadvīpa. That will be very short, very easily done, with least expense." He said: "Anyway, next time you come to Navadvīpa you can discuss with me. I am ready to help you in all ways." So he has turned his mind around. Prabhupāda: Who? Jayapatākā: The MLA, the local Member of Legislative Assembly. He was previously a little against us. But because our whole . . . (indistinct) . . . is for us, if he doesn't cooperate he won't get their vote, because they want the development in their area. Also the . . . he is changing a little. Everyone is saying that our Society is actually simply doing sincere work. Prabhupāda: As they are doing. Jayapatākā: This food distribution has been very important. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Jayapatākā: Now the price of rice has gone up by about eighty paisa . From two rupees to two*-eighty. So the poor class of people, they are in a very bad situation. So now our attendance has gone up from twelve hundred to two thousand on that Saturday and Sunday, each day. So we have two shifts. So many people are coming that they come from ten o'clock in the morning and wait, because otherwise they can't get a boat in time to cross the river. So then we were very surprised to read in a recent newsletter from LA that, "They're going to restart the food relief." But we never knew it stopped. We never knew that they had stopped the food relief. We saw then that he said, "They're going to restart." But we never stopped, and we were very surprised to see that. And now they say . . . Prabhupāda: Who said? Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara. Gargamuni: To maintain this food relief from the centers only requires what? Fifteen hundred dollars a month. Jayapatākā: Something like that, yes. Gargamuni: About fifteen hundred dollars a month. So little amount, and so much service is done. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: So I know Tamāla, he was giving one thousand, but he has stopped now. He was giving one thousand a month. And now he has stopped. Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara, you wrote him a letter that, "Jayapatākā Swami should be sent money for ISKCON Food Relief." And he told me that, "I am sending you. I have four thousand dollars," which he sent. Of that we had already been 36,000 rupees in debt because we hadn't received money for six months. But he wrote in a newsletter to the temples that, "Prabhupāda has wrote me to send money to Jayapatākā Swami; and now we're going to start again ISKCON Food Relief." But that was making it appear that we had stopped. But actually we had never stopped. Prabhupāda: Rāmeśvara. He did not know? Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara had stopped collecting from the temples. But we had never stopped . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, he'll collect. That's all. Jayapatākā: So anyway, your program everyone is appreciating. When the newspapermen came out, at that time the . . . (indistinct) . . . development officer he came there, and when the newspapermen were there he sat down with all the poor people, and he took also, and said: "This is very good. This is our national service." And they photographed. Prabhupāda: "National service"? Jayapatākā: Yes, he mentioned. Gargamuni: Still, though, because of these articles, it has been a little bit hard to secure money from people now, because the people who are giving us money, they are under investigation also, the rich people. So when they see we are under investigation, oh, then they get afraid. They don't want to give. Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: Because we're under investigation and they're also being investigated, so they don't want to endanger . . . the government is every day raiding the houses of the rich people. Prabhupāda: Anyway, what is the investigation? Jayapatākā: They are being investigated for income tax. Gargamuni: For income tax. The government is making it so that no one can give any donation. They don't want any more donation. They want everything to come to the government. So it's not easy to get money locally. We are getting enough to do maintenance, but it is not like it was, say, two or three years ago, when you could get 25,000, 15,000, especially in Calcutta, where the income tax, every day they are raiding the houses. Jayapatākā: Even if people give, a life . . . patron member, 2,222, if they are not so big, they want to give in installment, and even though they'll give at one time with postdated . . . they want different receipt, because if they give one lump sum, then it makes it seem that like they are very rich. Although they'll give you at one time, they want small, small receipt so that the income tax won't think, "Oh, they are giving so much donation? They must be very rich. They must have hidden wealth which we can capture from them by investigation." So in this way they are very much pressurized. Sometimes they prefer to give money without receipt. Prabhupāda: Soon on the whole, our program is going on. Gargamuni: Oh, yes. No, it's going on more. The book distribution is going on more. More people are joining. There's no hindrance. Prabhupāda: That I want. Jayapatākā: These are simply minor obstacles. Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Pālikā was just wondering if you wanted anything tonight. Prabhupāda: Yes. If she can . . . she can make little vegetable—potato, tomato. Hari-śauri: Purīs ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Or one paraṭā . One paraṭā . Hari-śauri: Just potatoes and tomato? Prabhupāda: Yes, tomato, potato, one vegetable. Gargamuni: Prabhupāda's house. Your house. You have not decided where you want to put your house. Prabhupāda: I wanted that if the major project is done, then we can select. What do you think? Jayapatākā: Let the big land be acquired and pick the best place. Let the whole land be acquired and then pick the best place. You wanted to wait for the whole land to be acquired, and then pick the best place. Prabhupāda: Yes. And not I want, but that you all see, which is the best place. Jayapatākā: For the most privacy. Prabhupāda: For the time being, that place is very nice, that pond. What is there? Gargamuni: It's become congested there now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: We have 125 people now. Jayapatākā: 138. Gargamuni: 138 people now. 138 people are living there. Women, children . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: There's fifty children now. So that place is now . . . the front has become somewhat congested . . . Prabhupāda: Congested. Gargamuni: . . . with noise and children. Prabhupāda: What about the painting? Gargamuni: Painting is going on. Oh, yes. Jayapatākā: They've done about sixteen or seventeen, I think. Prabhupāda: Our men? Gargamuni: Yes, yes. Jayapatākā: Two men. Ānakadundubhi and . . . What's his name? Gargamuni: Pāṇḍu. *Jayapatākā: (indistinct) . . . I went to Haridaspur as soon as I received your letter because Bahusvarūpa was there, making arrangement for the Janmāṣṭamī festival. So I spoke to all those people for two days, Thursday and Friday. And the land is in the name of the zamindar , Mr . . . Ghosh family. There's fourteen members who have to sign. So in Haridaspur nine members are living, and they are all agreed for signing. And they say the other five members live in Calcutta. Once they sign the deed, they'll also sign. There's no doubt, because that's not even in their possession. That's in the public's possession. And all the public, Anchal*-pradhan and all the other leaders of that village, they are also all eager to have us start. I think that we can also raise some money in the neighborhood. There's some relatively rich people. So that . . . I was trying to register that before I came here, but because Monday is . . . that zamindar has one haṭṭa . And that's . . . his haṭṭa day is Monday, so he was busy. And Tuesday was Janmāṣṭamī by government of West Bengal, and Wednesday was our Janmāṣṭamī and Haridaspur Janmāṣṭamī, and I came here today, Thursday, so we couldn't do it beforehand. But as soon as I go back, I can register that. And . . . but someone should immediately come, Mūrti or Saurabha or someone, and see that land. Prabhupāda: No, no, we have to . . . yes. We have to see, make plans. *Jayapatākā: Because actually just by giving the site plan you can't make a plan, because that's a high area, and it goes down to the river. So from our land to the river, that is also under our use. That is kashjami . That is no*-man's land. But that we can also use, and that has to be some strengthening so that when the river . . . and rain cannot wear away the side. So these details they should come and see, and then they could make a proper plan, I think. Without seeing, they can't make. 'Cause it's a very small area, it should be very well planned. And the local people there, they are very innocent people. They don't seem to have any type of enmity or envy at all. They all come and chant and see. Although they don't strictly follow the rules, naturally—they eat fish and other things and smoke—but they seem to be simple people. If someone would work with him, I think he could make the whole village gradually Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: But who that person is right now to work, that we have to train up some of our men. Because right now . . . Prabhupāda: He can do, Svarūpa. He can take training, and he can do. And then, gradually, others will join. Jayapatākā: I think all the children, they could become brahmacārīs . If the parents would be agreeable, they could become brahmacārīs and attend morning some class, then go to school. In this way, if the whole village could be made Kṛṣṇa conscious at least by chanting and attending, chanting . . . Prabhupāda: Chanting is the main thing. Chanting and distributing prasādam . Jayapatākā: If we get prasādam , then . . . and I think that they all contribute some grain. They are very poor agricultural people, but there's no theft there. I asked. There's one man who has three acres. Three bighās of land he's giving. So they just grow their rice there and . . . Prabhupāda: You can ask that instead of making paraṭā , a light khicuṛi in the morning. That is . . . Hari-śauri: Instead of that sabjī and everything. Prabhupāda: No, sabjī can make. Jayapatākā: Khicuṛi instead of paraṭā , as she made in the morning. Prabhupāda: So khicuṛi will be easy, light. Hari-śauri: You want some khicuṛi and the potato? Prabhupāda: Put in the khicuṛi and tomato. Like in the morning. Hari-śauri: Yes. Do you want anything like purī or anything to eat with it? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: Just khicuṛi with the vegetable. Prabhupāda: That will be easily digested. Jayapatākā: Digestion is not good now. Gargamuni: This will help digestion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: This medicine. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: There is ginger, I think. Prabhupāda: No. This is ajwain . My only concern is about the Immigration Department. They are gagging you, "Now you finished . . . go out. Go away, go out . . ." So they are making so big, big arrangement. If my foreign disciples are forced to go away, then what is the happen? That is . . . Gargamuni: Well, as far as myself . . . of course, I was supposed to leave yesterday. But there is very easy process. You can come in and out and stay six months. Prabhupāda: So that, make plans. That will . . . otherwise we are making so big, big, big plan. Who will manage? Jayapatākā: For that matter, we can get . . . even the American citizen, they can get outside . . . by various means you can get Canadian or English passports. Gargamuni: But even then, we can go to Lahore, get visa three months, come in, but you can stay six months. Then go out again, get another visa, come in and out. There is no problem. We have already done that with some of the other men. Prabhupāda: Make . . . find out such means. Otherwise . . . Alexander the Great, having so many kingdom, and as soon as he goes away, it is finished. *Jayapatākā: Also, if you would write . . . I think if you wrote a letter to Brahmānanda Reddy and that Mr. Mehta, the Deputy Assistant or whatever, minister, regarding these questions coming in the Rāja*-sabhā about this Māyāpur and Vṛndāvana, "Actually these two centers are my . . . I am founder- ācārya of these centers, and the people working there are not independent of me. I have asked them to come for assisting me." Then, if a letter like that is written to them, and send me one copy, that will help immigration also, I think. Gargamuni: Also another investigation, we're always asked, "Where is your headquarters?" Jayapatākā: And then "Our headquarters is in India." Gargamuni: It must be always stated, "Our headquarters are India." If we say "foreign," that means we are controlled by foreign. We must publish everywhere that our head . . . Prabhupāda: No, we have mentioned headquarters Bombay? Jayapatākā: We just said offices. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: They think that Los Angeles is our headquarters. Prabhupāda: That is for America. Gargamuni: We explain like that. Prabhupāda: But real headquarter here. Gargamuni: I think if one letter is given that, "We are purely Indian, that I am the ācārya , and they are simply helping me, they are not . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the fact. Jayapatākā: Actual facts is . . . that would help, if such a letter was given. Then on the basis of that, we can also go and preach or talk, or we can show that to the local people, that "This is . . ." Because they keep thinking that we are coming on our own. Because you are outside traveling, they see us only, and they think we are independent. Prabhupāda: No, in every letter heading there is my name, " Ācārya , Founder- ācārya ." Jayapatākā: That is their stupidity. But if some . . . that one direct letter, short letter, then if we have a copy I'll show that to the CID there, that "This, Prabhupāda has written to the Minister of Home. This is in answer to your question." Prabhupāda: Then take that copy. Jayapatākā: I'll make one draft. Prabhupāda: No, I have written already letter? Jayapatākā: You've written already letter? Prabhupāda: To the Home Minister? Jayapatākā: I didn't get. Has he written a letter to the Home Minister? Prabhupāda: No, Home Minister has given one letter. Gargamuni: I have that letter. Jayapatākā: You have one. Oh. Also, all over Bengal people are appreciating. I went . . . when we go preaching in the small towns . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Wait, I am coming. Among the . . . amongst these . . . not only for India, but the whole world. You are doing nice work to push this movement. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura wanted Indians, Americans. They can . . . Prabhupāda also. Now make plans how to . . . we are not concerned only with India. All over the world. Make plan. Think over. Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence. Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda would come to Māyāpur. Jayapatākā: When is your program for coming to Māyāpur? All the devotees are offering their obeisances to you. Bhavānanda Goswami, he is following very strictly the cāturmāsya this year. He doesn't eat anything before sunrise. Gargamuni: The weather there is very nice, because the monsoon is mild. It is very nice, cool weather. Prabhupāda: I have got a bad impression, Bengal during rainy season. Gargamuni: Yes, right. Prabhupāda: Is it not? Gargamuni: This year, for the first two months it was . . . Prabhupāda: No, it was not rainy season. This season. Otherwise, any season in Bengal, not are very good. Hari-śauri: Insect season. Prabhupāda: Not only insect. There are . . . insects are there? Gargamuni: There's no insects now. Jayapatākā: Rainy season no insects. Hari-śauri: No, after rainy season. Jayapatākā: After rainy season. Prabhupāda: After rainy season. And insect is not so bad. Indigestion. Jayapatākā: Indigestion. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . Gargamuni: What part of India is good during rainy season? Is there any part of India that's good during rainy season? Hari-śauri: Vṛndāvana's not too bad. Prabhupāda: I think Vṛndāvana. Is it not? Hari-śauri: I was there last year. Jayapatākā: I only know Bengal. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You are now Bengali. Jayapatākā: (laughs) Prabhupāda: And they are not giving citizenship? *Jayapatākā: Myself? What happened was I applied last September. So now it's nearly one year. So they had sent my application from Māyāpur to Calcutta, Writer's Building. Again back. Again Writer's Building, then to Delhi. Then Delhi sent again back. I went, and I asked the secretary, and then I found out that they had sent again back from Delhi, again back to Māyāpur, and then re*-investigated me. At that time they brought in some local people, and one investigator, he said that, "This Jayapatākā Swami, we have heard that he is a very bad person. He beats the people." They said: "No, we never heard such thing." "No, no. We have heard that he is very bad." In this way, by negative they are testing. They came and told me that for two hours police is drilling three different people from Navadvīpa and from Māyāpur. In this way no one said a bad . . . Prabhupāda: No, if you are a famous man, then they'll do. That is very good. Gargamuni: Him and Bhavānanda. Jayapatākā: Now Bhavānanda is more famous. Prabhupāda: He is notorious. Jayapatākā: But now he is in the papers. Prabhupāda: (laughing) He . . . you are famous; he is notorious. It is very difficult to deal with these nonsense. They are devotees, and neither notorious nor famous. Our Godbrothers, they do not like Bhavānanda. Eh? Jayapatākā: No, they don't like me anymore either. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? What is your fault? Jayapatākā: They always thought, because I am not so outspoken, that "Jayapatākā, we can get him to do as we like." But ultimately I don't do anything for them either, so now they don't like me either. Bhavānanda openly was against, and I was passive. I didn't say anything. But when they came to me I also . . . actually, I am afraid. Mādhava Mahārāja, he invited me to attend his program, some festival day . . . Prabhupāda: Where? Jayapatākā: At his Maṭha. Prabhupāda: Ten days? Ten days. *Jayapatākā: No, it was a three*-day program. He invited us for one day. But I was afraid to go. He might even poison me. But they personally went . . . Prabhupāda: That is their business, especially Mādhava Mahārāja. Jayapatākā: If not materially by poison, then spiritually by ear. One way or other, they have to give poison. So I didn't even want to go. I didn't go, either. Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara Mahārāja is also within the group? Jayapatākā: Of course, all those details we don't know. By the way, Tīrtha Mahārāja—very sick. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gargamuni: Oxygen. Jayapatākā: He can't breath. He is on a bed with oxygen. Life and death any moment. Injection, oxygen, barely staying alive. One day better, one day worse. Now they say better; then again they say worse. In this way his life is going on. But they say that his brother, Samvidananda, a barrister . . . (break) . . . and they've done a great to improve that. Now everyone is improved. Everyone is improved because of their example. That is what we simply need, are people . . . I saw the program so nicely, if people would simply come and work sincerely, they'll make spiritual advancement. They'll chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very quickly they'll become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So now we're seeing that we're being . . . we're demanding that sincere people come. Prabhupāda: Yes, it may not be the association of lazy people, free hotel. No. Jayapatākā: Bhavānanda, he's strict on that. Gargamuni: He's very strict. Without working, no one can eat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only work, but attending the program. That is essential. Jayapatākā: They all attend maṅgala-ārati , evening ārati . They should also attend morning class. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Work is partial. These things are essential. Jayapatākā: Maṅgala-ārati and morning class. Gargamuni: But some of these men are workers. They're not . . . Prabhupāda: No, our cloth necessities are supplied by ourselves? The cloth? Jayapatākā: The difficulty is right now we have twenty thousand rupees' worth of cloth in stock. That is all profit. We only are three thousand rupees in debt. But we have all the cloth, we have no customers. Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: There's no customers. We have a huge stock . . . Prabhupāda: You send immediately to America. They will pay. Gargamuni: We sent a newsletter to get people to buy cloth the cloth, because we have a huge stock of it. Prabhupāda: Now, you ask Bhagavān. He is very clever. He's expert. Jayapatākā: We are worried that now we're getting good men to join, they're doing good work, then how . . . Prabhupāda: I think if you prepare according to the order of our foreign centers, then you won't be . . . they will all give. You can make fine cloth? Jayapatākā: We can make up to eighty count. Eighty count we can make now. Prabhupāda: They are purchasing cloth, shirt and everything. Jayapatākā: They're saying . . . sometimes they say that, "The cloth you make is not what we like." But I tell them we can make any cloth. You give us sample. You tell us. We'll make to your specification." They don't . . . Prabhupāda: Even . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, Jayatīrtha, Bhagavān dāsa, they'll help. Jayapatākā: The GBCs can write a letter, and I'll sign it, you and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Gargamuni: All right, I'll write a letter. Let's not bother Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: How is that, twenty thousand stock is there? You can send it. In India there is no customer? Gargamuni: No, because it's made according to European length. Big size. Jayapatākā: Up to now we've been making according to the devotees' specification. To make for Indian we have to make a different type. We can also make Indian sārī and other thing. They'll be cheaper one. But previously we were making because we thought that all the foreign branches . . . Prabhupāda: So whatever . . . now you can make Indian style. You keep great stock. Jayapatākā: Well, we are hearing that they are buying the cloth elsewhere. Gargamuni: All right. Come on. Jayapatākā: All right. Prabhupāda: Eh? They are buying elsewhere? Gargamuni: Yes. They are buying sometimes from other. (to Jayapatākā) All right. Let's go and chant. We'll come back tomorrow. Jayapatākā: Other thing we can discuss tomorrow. (break) Gargamuni: . . . Birla Prabhupāda: It is difficult to go there. It is difficult to go there. Gargamuni: Yes. And here there is more devotion. Prabhupāda: Here they are devotees. Jayapatākā: We made this for distributing, and the public, they take and worship in their home, purchase it. Gargamuni: (to Jayapatākā) Let's go. Prabhupāda: They purchase? Gargamuni: Yes. Jayapatākā: Yes. This is Indian printing. Prabhupāda: Calcutta? Gargamuni: Yes. (break) Prabhupāda: So, so far the building is concerned, that is already settled up. Jayapatākā: Yes, that's all settled. Prabhupāda: Then, what other? *Jayapatākā: Well, there were some other lighter matters. When I was traveling in my preaching, then last time in Māyāpur, when that Haridaspur, when they offered, you mentioned to me that you liked that we develop these . . . all these holy spots. So just as a matter of convenience, whenever I was near any holy spot that you mentioned in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , I would go and just visit the place. So in my tour, one place I went to was very nice, and that sevaite, he spontaneously, when I showed him all your work, he had offered me that he would like to give the temple to you. That temple is much, much more developed than Haridaspur. That's the temple of Maheśa Paṇḍita. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Jayapatākā: And that is the seventeenth branch of Lord Nityānanda. It's got the personal Deities of Nitāi*-Gaura that he used to worship. It's got a building worth about fifty thousand rupees on it. A nice, brand-new nātha-mandira. This man is Shri Keshav Priya Brahmacari. He's a disciple of that Krishna Prem, that Mr. Nixtan or something. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayapatākā: He talked personally with Bhaktisiddhānta, I heard, in Sanskrit many years ago. He's a disciple. Prabhupāda: He's Indian or . . .? *Jayapatākā: Well, it's an unusual story that that man was a pilot in the World War, and he was flying over Himalayas or something, and he saw Kṛṣṇa in his mind's eye or something. And then, when he was shot down, he saw Kṛṣṇa, and then, when he landed, he searched out who he saw, and he came to Vṛndāvana or something and saw the Deity of Kṛṣṇa, and he became initiated at Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa temple. *Prabhupāda: Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa Jayapatākā: This is that guru story. Now he only made a few disciples, and he always was chanting. Also Panditjī, he knew more. I don't know so much about his guru but I've heard a little bit that this foreigner became a guru or became a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Nixon? Jayapatākā: His previous name is Nixton; his initiated name was Krishna Prem. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was in Almora. Jayapatākā: Almora, yes. I don't know exactly where Almora is. Prabhupāda: Almora is a hilly station, Himalaya. If . . . Almora, one goes from Lucknow. *Jayapatākā: So this brahmacārī is a disciple of him. Therefore he doesn't have any connection. There's no sampradāya anymore, because his guru disappeared, and somehow he's got this sevā . These are the Deities there of Nitāi*-Gaura. There's about twelve śālagrāma-śilās also. And a little Rādhā-Gopīnātha. This is all mentioned in your purport. It's only about four or five hundred yards. I could read from it. Prabhupāda: Eh? No, that's all right. Jayapatākā: It's four or five hundred yards from the Palpara Railway Station. It's the next station from Chuktaha, under Chuktaha police station. Prabhupāda: Chuktaha? Chakdah. Jayapatākā: Chakdah. That's where you take your . . . that mango orchard where you take your lunch? That's just the nearest place to Chakdah So he was very pleased with all the work that you are doing. He's in Vṛndāvana now for Janmāṣṭamī. He hadn't been to Vṛndāvana for five years, so he went to Vṛndāvana for darśana . He may be there even when you go. I'm not sure if he'll be there then. Prabhupāda: You have advised to see our temple? *Jayapatākā: Yes, he'll definitely visit. I also gave him an introduction that if he goes, he should be received there. He's got . . . the present place where the Deities are situated is on four kuttas of land. And apart from that, where Maheśa Paṇḍita's samādhi is, he's got three bighās of land. That's right next to a four*-hundred-year-old temple. Prabhupāda: Chakdah is to the . . . it is from Shrirampur? No. Jayapatākā: No, it's on this side of the Ganges. It's on the eastern side of the Ganges. Prabhupāda: Oh, eastern. Jayapatākā: There there's another temple of Jagadīśa Paṇḍita. Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes. Jayapatākā: That is run by Mādhava Mahārāja. That's in actual Chakdah, and this is another mile or two miles from Chakdah. That Jagadīśa Paṇḍita mandira has got big Jagannātha Deity, and one stick which Jagadīśa Paṇḍita carried the Jagannātha Deity from Jagannātha Purī with. I saw both temples. They told me there that "You should see this temple, very lovable Deities." And I went in. Actually the Deities are very beautiful and very well kept. Just like in Mādhava Mahārāja's mandira , underneath the siṁhāsana they didn't wash. Only in front. But this man, everything was neat and clean. It looked like a thriving, more or less, a thriving place. Prabhupāda: So difficulty is that if we take charge, we may give it for worshiping to one disciple, but the Immigration Department will gag him. That is the difficulty. And we don't have many Indian disciples. Otherwise, we can take all these important places. Jayapatākā: Also, last when I was in Calcutta and I saw Tarun Kanti Ghosh, then he mentioned to me again that the people from Pānihāṭi, this time that they had reached a decision that they wanted to give us the sevā of the Rāghava Paṇḍita's house. Prabhupāda: So we take. Let us take it. Jayapatākā: That's a very important . . . but that's in dilapidated state. Prabhupāda: We shall repair. Jayapatākā: In the letter of the Home Minister where he said that every disciple can stay for two years, possibly if he allowed that in every center, if a minimum of a few people could stay for citizenship, then that might . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: Ordinary, by rotation, and three, two or three or four permanent, by citizen, if he allowed to stay . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: . . . then that would solve the problem. Prabhupāda: Yes. That make. Jayapatākā: Not too many. Prabhupāda: Not too many. Say at least five. They will manage. Jayapatākā: Four or five. All others on rotation. Prabhupāda: Then they will manage. And if they allow two years, that's all right. One devotee comes, another goes, another . . . that will be done. Jayapatākā: Because some that are acclimatized, it is difficult for training up. A few people are better to stay there that are trained up on that basis. I think with Mr. Patnaik and others that . . . because he also wants that Orissan development . . . they can understand that it is important to have one or two people that are known people stay there. If every two years a change is, that is disadvantage. *Prabhupāda: No, our Gaura*-Govinda, I think he is doing there nice. Jayapatākā: He's doing nice in Bhubaneswar. Prabhupāda: Yes. He has already few cottages? Jayapatākā: Of course, I didn't see myself. I heard he has got a few cottages, three, four cottages. Prabhupāda: So our Gargamuni has seen? *Jayapatākā: Yes, I think Gargamuni has seen. Gargamuni is giving him some help. He printed one Orissan book, and he gives him sometimes some books and help. He is fixed up, that Gaura*-Govinda. Prabhupāda: He's fixed up. That's nice. Let him translate in Orissa and, if possible, in Hindi. And give him few devotees. Then he'll be encouraged. *Jayapatākā: I think he has got two or three devotees now. This man himself is a pretty capable worker. He's similar like Prabhu Swarupa, only a little older, little more mature. He's about forty*-five or so. He's been able to collect about, what I can see, about fifty thousand rupees for one nātha-mandira. So he is al . . . and he has a couple thousand people. I heard from the Gauḍīya Maṭha. They say they have big utsavas there. Every year two, three thousand people come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: So he's a capable . . . Prabhupāda: Manager. Jayapatākā: . . . manager in his own right. He wanted to meet you. Prabhupāda: So let us cooperate with him. You take it. And he is there. In the meantime, our men may be trained up. Jayapatākā: He's invited us to come. He has some festival coming. Then we can just go . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . Jayapatākā: . . . and keep a good relationship. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jayapatākā: The main one is in December. Prabhupāda: Our difficulty is this immigration. If we can manage this, then all such places we can take. There is no question. The only thing is that government is gagging. One has to go, and it means ten thousand rupees unnecessarily. If that ten thousand rupees was invested in developing that center, much improvement could be done. But they are gagging. They are dreaming, "CIA." Jayapatākā: When I go back, I'll see this Raghava Pandit, because there the MLA, he himself wants it because that's a very important place and it's going bad. Prabhupāda: So that MLA can help us to get some citizenship. Jayapatākā: With MLA and with Tarun Kanti Ghosh . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: . . . we can use them for pushing, because they are personally interested. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: They'll be able to help. *Prabhupāda: You can bring so many men and keep everyone in charge of such places, and it will develop. Money, there is no scarcity. But the difficulty is as soon as we establish, the Immigration, "You go away." This is . . . what is this? You say the MLA and this Tarun Kanti, "This is our difficulty. Otherwise there is no difficulty. We can take all the charge and develop them very nicely." So if one man is kept in charge, and after few months he's advised, "Go away," then all his training goes to hell and we have to spend another ten thousand rupees. This is the difficulty. What . . . we are not . . . not a single case there is that we have taken any part in politics. So give us some facility. We can take charge of everything. Tell them that actually that is fact, that there is no scarcity of money. We can bring money from America and develop. There is no difficulty at all. The difficulty is the Immigration Department. You can say that "Prabhupāda has put this philosophy, andha . . ." What is that? Paṅgu. Andha*-paṅgu-nyāya. Blind and . . . depends on this . . . blind and . . . I think you have already know. Blind man, lame man. One man is blind, another man is lame. Both of them are useless. But when they combine, the blind man takes the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man gives direction to the blind man, "Go this way. Go this way." So he walks. So both of them are benefited. So America has got money, but blind. And India has got culture, but lame. So let us combine. Then things will be done very nice. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya . Just like I am the same man. I was finding difficulty to start this mission in India, very, very difficult. With great hardship I published three books. But as soon as I went America, the andha-paṅgu-nyāya became successful. So this is the position. *So instead of becoming envious from political . . . we have nothing to do with . . . to the Americans unnecessarily thinking they are CIA. CIA . . . let American money and India's culture combine together, and the whole world will be benefited. America has got enough money, they can spend. Either they give me as the price of my book or anything, money is there like anything. India has got culture. So Indian culture, Vedic culture, Bhagavad*-gītā culture, pushed through American money, the whole world will be benefited. Convince these things. It is not the question of "India," "America," here . . . it is a cultural movement for the benefit of the whole world. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). It is cultural movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is aiming pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi. So "Tarun Babu, you are such a devotee of Caitanya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants it. Pṛthivīte āche yata . . . why don't you help us? Your family is devotee of Lord Caitanya, and this is spreading Caitanya's mission. You should give up everything and join this movement, if you are actually a devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And Prabhupāda says that he knows at your heart you want that Caitanya's movement is spread all over the world, so far he has studied you. So let us join together. Why we should unnecessarily be biased, 'American' and 'Indian' and . . . let us join together and spread Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement all over the . . . they'll be happy. Everyone will be happy. It is such a nice . . . India will be glorified. America will be glorified." If we . . . you came here. You have got so much strength. If you work continually, the whole world will be . . . so those who are offering, take. Take those places. Let us begin. If anyone wants some property, we should take immediately. You said there is already building cost fifty thousand? So that's a property. So if they are offering, you take it and develop. These are historical places. Haridaspur is also historical, I think. Hmm? Jayapatākā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Vena? Venapur is nearby. Two miles. Jayapatākā: Two miles. Two or three miles. Jayapatākā: No, that's been . . . Haridaspur, since time of Lord Caitanya, for many, many years, four hundred . . . right from the time of Lord Caitanya they are calling that. They say there's no doubt that Haridāsa Ṭhākura came that way. Prabhupāda: That must be. It is two, three miles. If he was a person belonging to Venapur, so two, three miles surrounding he must have gone. There is no doubt. And if you can establish good relationship with Pakistan, Bangladesh, then our whole question is solved. Go there, seek some preaching and come here, and all these motorcar problems . . . Gargamuni: I don't want to sell them, you know . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is a very . . . Gargamuni: . . . because we took great hardship to bring them. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: Why we should sell them? They are so useful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: They have done so much work already. *Prabhupāda: It is . . . nowadays motor vehicle is important item for anyone. We have spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness so quickly on account of the modern transport facilities, so we must take it as favorable. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). Anukūla , favorable. Favorable, favorable. It is not we have got . . . (indistinct) . . . with material. That is not Rūpa Gosvāmī's . . . prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi . . . this cars can be used for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why it should be condemned? That is not intelligence. Rūpa Gosvāmī condemns it. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256). Things which is in the service of the Lord, if we think it is material, that is not vairāgya . That is not renouncement. That is foolishness. (break) Jayapatākā: When I was traveling in Burdwan, there we saw the big palace of Mahārāja of Burdwan. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Jayapatākā: Gigantic. He has given that to the university. Then we did a kīrtana at his . . . he has one temple of Rādhā*-kānta. There's . . . present ācārya is about a twenty-two-year-old boy. He's in the sampradāya of Nimbārka Svāmī. So he doesn't know anything about . . . very much about spiritual life, although he is following the tradition. That's such a vast . . . that building is vast. I can't explain to you how big that is. It makes our . . . it's at least five times bigger than our building in all ways, and . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: Than our building, five times bigger, I think, in length and . . . it is a huge compound. He has got much land in the name of the Deity. So he's becoming a member because he wants to read your books to understand about Lord Caitanya and spiritual . . . Prabhupāda: Now for making member you should be very clear so that no misunderstanding can take place. Books, we shall give five books. Gargamuni: Yes, that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: On my form I have already printed we give five books. Prabhupāda: "When you finish, you return this; you take another. When you finish that . . ." In this way. Gargamuni: Well, we've been doing with members in Calcutta, members who want more of the books, they sign the standing order and they pay us for the books. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Gargamuni: Every month. One book a month and they pay. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gargamuni: And they sign the standing order. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Gargamuni: So we have taken many personal standing orders. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gargamuni: We have one boy, Santoṣa. He goes door to door, meeting Bengali men, and they are signing standing orders and taking Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. He has already done four standing orders in about ten days' time. Prabhupāda: Bengalis? Bengalis? Gargamuni: Yes, only to Bengalis. Because it's in their language . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: They can read. Prabhupāda: No, it is in English. Anyone can. Gargamuni: Yes, but Bengalis, they can appreciate more Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Jayapatākā: I tell the members that, "You can't get any Bhāgavatams ," because there's too many. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why not? If he reads, give him. And it is very easy. Suppose I give you five books. You become member. So you read it and take another five books. This five books I can give to another. In this way we can manage. There is no misunderstanding. We give you book for reading, not for selling. Not that, "I have given money. Now so many books, let me sell it and get return as many, as much money as possible." Bāniyā tendency is like that. Jayapatākā: Because they're paying 2,222 rupees. If they only give them five books on exchange, I don't think now they'll be satisfied. Prabhupāda: What for he's taking? Gargamuni: They're satisfied. Prabhupāda: No, no. Jayapatākā: Now we're giving them the books. Prabhupāda: No, no. Jayapatākā: We told them, "You can't have any books." Prabhupāda: What is the cause of dissatisfaction? You take the books for reading, so you finish this and again we give five books. We take back this and give you in exchange. So actually we give them five books for good. That we are prepared. Five books at fifty rupees each, that one or 250. Jayapatākā: But they're giving two thousand rupees. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gargamuni: That's for membership. That isn't just for books. Sometimes they stay in our mandiras . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: We pay for their prasāda . Prabhupāda: And three days free boarding and lodging. In this way things should be clear so that in future they may not complain, "Ah, we . . ." as they are doing. Somebody is coming, "Oh, we have given 1100 rupees to live here forever." Some ladies came like that. Gargamuni: Yes, I know. I met that lady. Prabhupāda: Yes, they take it, advantage, "Oh, we shall get all books, we shall live forever. There is no charge, pay." That misunderstanding should be . . . Gargamuni: So now we say they can live forever, but as we live. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. That . . . that you can do. Gargamuni: Not that they will get special privilege of . . . as hotel. They must live like us. Prabhupāda: But they want free hotel. That is . . . they want free. Jayapatākā: Sometimes old man who has got some money . . . Prabhupāda: No, old . . . old man is different. Jayapatākā: He wants to live, and he is too weak to do anything. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jayapatākā: He wants to chant and give some money. Prabhupāda: Let him purchase one room. Let him live . . . for life he can live, and we give him prasādam free. Jayapatākā: Purchase one room. Eight, ten thousand rupees. Prabhupāda: No, fifty thousand, I think. In Vṛndāvana we are selling sixty thousand. Sixty thousand. Gargamuni: No, but those rooms have attached bath. In our room there is no attached bath. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say in Vṛndāvana, that's all right. Or anywhere. Whatever money is fixed up, let him pay, live in his room comfortably, and we give him free prasādam . There is no harm. But he must attend the ārati , and rules and regulations. There is no . . . Jayapatākā: No tea, nor . . . all the rules he should follow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: Attend the program. Prabhupāda: Even if old men cannot follow, still, he should be given. Gargamuni: What about tea? Prabhupāda: Tea, tea can . . . then he'll caught. That is not. Gargamuni: Because the old men, they are addicted to the tea. Prabhupāda: No, what . . . many old men, they can give it up. Gargamuni: We will promise them cow's milk. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Gargamuni: Pure cow's milk. Prabhupāda: That "Instead of this tea, you take milk." Little milk, that is beneficial. So membership should be clearly defined, so that they may not misunderstand. Gargamuni: But we're not having trouble now. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gargamuni: Because we printed a new form. And generally, when members come they always donate more, so we give them one book. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: They always . . . I visited one hundred members, and all of those old members, they gave another one thousand. Prabhupāda: Just see. Yes, they will give. I know. Gargamuni: They'll give if you treat them nicely. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: And I gave them one book, and they're satisfied. Prabhupāda: Any person who has money, they'll receive. So many places they are offering us land . . . Gargamuni: There's another man who wants to give a big property. When you come to Calcutta he wants to see you. Prabhupāda: In Calcutta? Gargamuni: No, it's in Rajasthan. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gargamuni: It's a palace which he's not using. And he met you in Bombay. He also visited our centers in Paris and New York. He's a Marwari man, very rich, very nice. He's also donated good sums to the Society. So now he wants to meet you, and he wants someone to go there. So I told him we will go and look at it. Prabhupāda: Where? Gargamuni: It's in Rajasthan. Prabhupāda: Rajasthan? Where? Which side. Gargamuni: It's near Bikaner. It's with agricultural land and a big house. They said they spent about fifteen lacks on it, marble house. The family is not using it. They have no use. We're getting a lot of offers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: But because of Māyāpur, I have not taken them very seriously, because we already have huge affair in Māyāpur. But if you like, we can see. Prabhupāda: No, kāca dhun kāca kaphe : "If some property is offered, we should take it." That is the . . . and washed cloth, jācā dhun kācā kapha . If somebody offers you very nicely washed cloth, you should use it. And some property, you must use it. They are . . . you can utilize this property by inhabiting the persons, if they are inclined to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are rotting outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They may come to live. We are for everyone. So he . . . where does he reside, this gentleman? Gargamuni: In Calcutta. His businesses are there. He's a wealthy man, very nice man. Prabhupāda: Where does he live? Gargamuni: He's lives in Bara Bazar. His name is Mr. Buwalka. Prabhupāda: Bara Bazar Marwaris are all businessmen. Gargamuni: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is combination of rich men, poor men, for Kṛṣṇa. The same— andha*-paṅgu-nyāya . Both of them are useless separately, and when they combine in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are all useful. It is very good example. And there is another example, that a piece of wire is falling, rotting, and a piece of bamboo, rotting, and a piece of squash skin is rotting. And one gentleman collected. He nicely trimmed the piece and dried the squash, the outer portion, and took the bamboo and nicely cut it and joined the string, and this became a sitar: ting, ting, ting . So it is the intelligent person who joins all these things and makes it very useful. These are the examples. The bamboo alone is useless, and a small piece of wire, useless, and a thrown-out squash skin, useless. But if you can join them together, you can " ting, ting ." Similarly, andha-paṅgu-nyāya . Here is a lame man, here is a blind man. All right, combine together and use them. That is wanted. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhi labhate . This wire does not change. It is wire, it remains wire. But when it is combined, it is useful. So our propaganda is, "They are separately planning useless. Let them combine together in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All this planning shall be successful. Jayapatākā: We were all useless in the West, but you have come and then engaged us. *Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Nobody is useless. I was also useless. I could not do in India alone anything. This is . . . again the same example: (laughs) two useless makes useful. Intelligence alone cannot work. Money is required. One man was challenged, "You have no intelligence." So he said, "Yes." He was searching these . . . "No, why you are searching here?" "No, here is intelligence. If here is money, then my intelligence can work. Otherwise what is the use of intelligence?" But he was searching here, "Whether I have got intelligence?" Simply intelligence . . . in industry also: land, labor, capital, organization—four things needed. Simple capital will not do. Simple organization will not do. A man may have very good brain power, organization, but if he has no money—useless. So four things required: land, labor, capital, organization. That minister in Raṅganātha, he is inclined to spend huge income of Tirupati, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But he is bound up by other colleagues. They are applying the money. So he's willing to call all the ministers if I can convince them. I shall try it. Just . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, yajñārthe karma . Everyone is karmī . So the karmīs , the village cultivators or big men industrialists, they are going to Tirupati. Whatever then can spare, they are offering. That is yajñārthe . If this money is taken and again if it is brought into karmī , then it is misleading. Karmīs are giving them. Just like people are giving us money. They are karmīs . But because they are giving us and we are engaging the money in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so the money is fully utilized. But if this money again taken and again to the karmīs . . . Jayapatākā: Without any spiritual work. Prabhupāda: Then it is a farce. His purpose is served, but one who is misleading the . . . he becomes criminal. Jayapatākā: The man who gives, his purpose is served. Prabhupāda: His purpose is served. Jayapatākā: The man who takes the money is . . . *Prabhupāda: He is to be punished. His misusing. Suppose in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement somebody gives us money. He is giving good faith that "It is very good organization." But if I misspend that money, then I am responsible. Then I'll be punished. His business is finished. Kṛṣṇa noted that he has given his hard*-earned money for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If I take that money . . . instead of doing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if I use it for my sense gratification, then I'll be . . . then I'll be responsible. What is the use of Kṛṣṇa's money being used for industry? Any purpose outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . let this money be utilized for spreading the glories of Kṛṣṇa. But they do not recognize Kṛṣṇa. All the so-called Bhagavad-gītā readers, they want to kill Kṛṣṇa. Gargamuni: Yes, that's a fact. The Calcutta plan that you had, it is still under consideration. At first the Calcutta corporation refused, but then Abhirāma saw the Minister of Municipal Affairs, Mr. Subrata Mukerjee. Prabhupāda: So I gave the meaning. Gargamuni: He said: "No, I want this." But there's still a problem, is that they'll allow a monument, but they don't want the Deity. They'll allow us to build a monument for Bhaktivedanta Swami but no Deity. Prabhupāda: Well, then take this proposal, "All right, no Deity." We shall hold meetings, lecture. What is that? In the park people come. And we decorate the whole hall with pictures. Gradually we worship one picture. Gargamuni: Later on, maybe we can put Deity. Once it's built, they cannot tell us to get out. Jayapatākā: That's what Mr. Choudhuri said. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: He said, "You can take, and once a week you bring Deity and put, and other time you just do kīrtana ." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jayapatākā: One week, it stays one week. Then it stays one month . . . Gargamuni: We can take the Deity for a walk around the park, and then into the hall for two hours . . . Prabhupāda: For some time, two hours. Gargamuni: And then take out. Prabhupāda: Yes, then do that. And we are inviting everyone. We have no distinction. Anyone can come to the park. Convince them. (break) "Come on! Take prasādam sumptuously." They'll be satisfied. They are hungry. Actually they are hungry, poorly paid, capitalist and worker. The trouble is, capitalists, they are taking all the profit, and they are enjoying life in wine and women. Naturally the worker will see that, "Why? We are working so hard, and they are making profit, and they are enjoying, and we do not live in a very nice house; it is a slum." Naturally they will be envious. If the capitalists spend the money for Kṛṣṇa consciousness—in each and every factory they hold festivals and give them eatables like anything—everything will be successful. Gargamuni: We tell them that "If you give your Kṛṣṇa tax, this will save you from the income tax." Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: "Because they are raiding . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: ". . . because you are hoarding. But if you give . . ." Prabhupāda: The industrialists . . . that is also one of our programs. Let them hold festivals every Sunday, as we hold. And we shall go and have kīrtana and sumptuous feeding give. They'll be very satisfied. And instead of giving the income tax, let them spend in this way. Convince them. Jayapatākā: At the factories. Weekly foodstuffs. They feed all the workers. We'll prepare the prasāda , offer to the Deity and feed to all the workers. Prabhupāda: They'll be satisfied. Gargamuni: Presently the building they're in now is unbearable, as far as living Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: Well, it is old building. Water supply is very bad. Prabhupāda: So you cannot . . . Gargamuni: It is a rotten building. Prabhupāda: Rotten cannot be repaired? Gargamuni: No. And the landlord won't allow him here. Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: Because he wants us to get us out . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, but he . . . Gargamuni: But he won't allow any repair. You have to have his permission to get repair. If you don't get landlord's permission, then you cannot repair. You're forced to live in a slum. Prabhupāda: No, no, you require permission of the landlord if he pays. Gargamuni: No, no. Even if he doesn't. Any construction . . . Prabhupāda: No, I don't think that is the law. What is the law? I am feeling inconvenience, I cannot repair? Gargamuni: No. Jayapatākā: No, how that can be? You can tell the police. Gargamuni: No, then you have to go to the court, and that takes ten years. Just like he's in the court for five years now. He is not taking our rent. Prabhupāda: Then let us repair. Let him go to the court. Because by repairing, we have broken the law, so let him go to the court. (laughter) The same logic. Gargamuni: Actually, Abhirāma . . . also, the facility for living there is only good for five or six persons. Otherwise it is not good. So they want to get a building. Prabhupāda: So what happened to the corner house? What happened to the corner house? Gargamuni: No, that is still there. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you purchase it? Gargamuni: Which corner one? The one right across? Prabhupāda: Yes. Left corner. Gargamuni: No, but that's even worse condition than what we have. Prabhupāda: No, no, we break it and prepare nice temple. Gargamuni: He went to see that man. That man, he doesn't want to sell. Prabhupāda: What was the . . . Gargamuni: He's one of these Marwaris who is very miser. He himself lives in a slum. Jayapatākā: But right now Abhirāma hasn't found another place. Gargamuni: I just talked to him. Let me talk . . . Jayapatākā: He told me ten minutes ago . . . (indistinct) Gargamuni: So they are thinking they want to get . . . Prabhupāda: And one thing is that next thing will be . . . now there are many flats. Gargamuni: Now, we have one flat that we are renting. Prabhupāda: Not renting. Purchase. Gargamuni: Well, the only thing is with these flats in Calcutta, they are so mismanaged, these new places. They become a slum in two months. In Bombay the flats are managed nicely, but in Calcutta when they build a new one, within two months the whole thing is filthy dirty, the elevators don't work. It's not worth purchasing a flat. I have one now. I am renting. It's on the twelfth floor, and the members of our traveling party stay there, you see. There is nice water and so many things. But the building is so mismanaged. Who wants to stay there more than a year? We need our own place. Then we can keep it clean and nice. Prabhupāda: Where is that own place? Gargamuni: Well, there are buildings that we can get. In Ballygunge we have some offers. That's if this park doesn't come through. If the park does not come through, then we can . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all try to make . . . this is the best place in Calcutta. Jayapatākā: I personally went with Abhirāma to see the minister, and the minister didn't give any stipulation. He was only for the project. His only reservation was that, he said first of all, politically, he doesn't know about our Society. If the government Home Department says that it's all right . . . as far as the program is, the program, the plan that was given, he totally accepts it as it is. That's when I saw him. Since then, Abhirāma has not seen him. But the people in the corporation, they have refused it without his sanction, and they have written him that the minister said he does not want it. When we took that—we showed it to the minister—he said: "This is completely wrong." He said: "No, no, no! There is some misunderstanding." Then he said, "You write me a letter that there is some misunderstanding, and I will take care of this matter." Gargamuni: So he wrote the letter, and now they forward that letter back to the Calcutta corporation without a letter from the minister. Because he went back there. He just told me that. So it's back again to the same guys who, you know . . . of course, I don't know what letter he has written, but the officers would not tell us anything. Anyway, we will try our best. Prabhupāda: Why not take the Victoria Memorial? What is, they are doing? Jayapatākā: I have never gone inside. I heard it is simply old English armor and some swords. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen. Gargamuni: And the marble is turning black. Prabhupāda: Because they don't . . . Gargamuni: They don't clean. Jayapatākā: How they can afford to maintain such a building? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa will maintain. Jayapatākā: Oh, we can. Prabhupāda: We can utilize it properly. Jayapatākā: And we'll have British pūjārīs . For the glory of Queen Victoria. Prabhupāda: Victoria. Let them send. Tell them that we shall bring. Victoria has . . . let them send to worship Victoria with prasādam of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is real Victoria Memorial. Jayapatākā: That is putra . (loud kīrtana in the background throughout) *Prabhupāda: Yes, great*-grandson. Putra is great . . . the putra was that Edward Seventh. Jayapatākā: No, but to lift from hell. When she gets prasādam . *Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Puṁ*-nārakāt trāyate iti putra . Victoria died in 1903. There was great function, and this building started in 1903, and it was finished in 1922. Jayapatākā: After her death. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Curzon's plan . . . Lord Curzon wanted that let there be a king of India from the family of Victoria. He gave this plan. But this Parliament did not want that Englishman shall make India home. Then his interest will be in India. Just like America. Englishmen, as they made America their home, they declared independence. Australia. As soon as you make a home, then the more interest will be in India. Washington was Englishman. Was he not? Washington? Gargamuni: Yes. Well, everyone came from England. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not from England many. But ordinary . . . so Englishman, why he declared war against the English? Jayapatākā: Their interest was in America more than England. Prabhupāda: Yes. Naturally. So as soon as you make home, your interest will be at home. So that was their policy. In those days no Englishman was allowed to purchase property in India. All his income, money, should go to England. So the Muhammadan Moguls, they made their home in India. Therefore they stayed for eight hundred years. They would not have gone. Indians did not like to finish the Muhammadan kingdom. No, never. It is the Englishmen. They penetrated and finished them, not the Indians. Indians were not against the Muhammadans. They are going on. Little bit discrepancies were there, especially during the time of Aurangzeb. He was bigot Muhammadan. He hated the Hindus. Not hated, but he was a . . . was is called, bigot, Muhammadan? He did not hate. That was not his qualification. Aurangzeb gave many contributions to the Vṛndāvana temples. Yes. And Aurangzeb's grandfather, Jahangir, he gave many temples to many brāhmins . There is one village just opposite Vṛndāvana, Keśīghāṭa: Jahangipura. This village was given to a brāhmin . From the income he was maintaining a temple. And Aurangzeb . . . you know Sringarpat Goswami? Devotee (1): (entering room) Śrīla Prabhupāda, Shankar Kumar has brought the food and all these things to his place. So if you'd like to go afterwards or take here, or what would you like? Prabhupāda: No, no, let them take. Devotee (1): Pradyumna thought that you wanted to take with them. Prabhupāda: So I can take, but you'll take . . . Devotee (1): They'll have their food, and you will also have . . . Prabhupāda: No, what is that? Let them take here in the temple. Devotee (1): In the temple? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I will have to take at least one hour. How they will wait? Jayapatākā: Better they take separately. Prabhupāda: So Indians did not like that Muhammadans may go away. Rather, when Shri Rajdullah was arrested by flight, the Bengali zamindars , they protested. Rani Bhavani, she protested, although it is alleged that Shri Rajdullah kidnapped her daughter. But if Shri Rajdullah kidnapped her daughter, how he (she) supported Shri Rajdullah? There are so many falsehoods. On the whole, the Indians never planned to drive away the Muhammadans. They never. That's a fact. They were happy because there was no exploitation. All these Muhammadans, they made their home in India, so whatever lavishly they were spending, that was coming to the Indians. In Tollygunge there is a man—now they are aristocratic family—he was servant of the nawab , and he stolen one shoes, one feet, which was bedecked with jewels. So by selling that jewel he became a rich man. So although they were using jeweled shoes, but it was in India. They were satisfied that, "I am nawab . I am using jeweled shoes." But the jeweled shoes was in India, and these Englishmen, they have taken away all the jewels even from the walls, and keeping them in their homes—all gold, jewels, everything. Gargamuni: Yeah. That's a fact that in those old houses, the Marwaris, they have inherited all of these pieces. Now they have it all. In the old British houses many Marwaris have taken over, and they have inherited all of the treasures of the British. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gargamuni: Many antiques. Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyway, if I take away something from you in this room and I keep it somewhere in this room, then where is the difference either with you or with me? That was going on during Muhammadans' ruling. But these people, they took away from the room. Gargamuni: Exploitation. *Prabhupāda: So India became poverty*-stricken. Jayapatākā: One more thing is that locally, that bank that opened there . . . Prabhupāda: They are . . . they are crazy fellows. Gargamuni: That bank is worthless. They don't know anything about banking. They are farmers. Prabhupāda: Forget it. If bank like Central Bank or United, that bank . . . they are useless, and they are asking ten lakhs of rupees deposit. Jayapatākā: Five lakhs . They will give interest. They'd like a fixed amount . . . Prabhupāda: So who believes them? Gargamuni: No, but I don't trust that bank because they already tried . . . they kept fifty thousand rupees. It took us two weeks to get that. Jayapatākā: They didn't have my signature. Gargamuni: It doesn't matter, though. It's still . . . Jayapatākā: No bank would have given. Without signature no . . . Gargamuni: Still, they're not a good bank. They have three . . . Prabhupāda: They are not . . . it is a small cultivator's cooperative. Gargamuni: I wouldn't trust a small bank. At any time they can lose. They only have three or four branches. Jayapatākā: They're backed by the Reserve Bank. Gargamuni: It doesn't matter. Jayapatākā: What do you mean, it doesn't matter? Gargamuni: No big bank . . . (indistinct) . . . what big bank? Prabhupāda: Then who is going to deposit five lakhs of rupees with them? That is not possible. Jayapatākā: Yes, that's all right, but as far as the bank goes . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. We can go on without the business. We cannot deposit. Jayapatākā: If any banker goes there, they'll want a deposit. But if a big bank . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. But why should we deposit five lakhs of rupees? The money value is decreasing daily. Jayapatākā: We get credit. Prabhupāda: If you deposit five lakhs now, it will decrease value in five, ten months. The purchasing power of money is decreasing. Now what you can purchase with five lakhs of rupees, after five years you'll require ten lakhs . So your money will decrease. And if you invest that money in land, after five years it will increase to its full extent. So why should we waste our money? What is the benefit? Gargamuni: The farmers don't keep their money in the banks. The government is trying to force the farmers to keep their money in the bank. The farmers don't want to do it. Prabhupāda: Farmers' policy is if they have got money, they purchase land. Therefore they are making ceiling. The whole policy is not so good. Farmers, as soon as they get some money, they want to invest the land, but the ceiling . . . so they cannot invest money in the land, they give to the bank. And as soon as you keep money in the bank it will decrease the value. This is . . . Gargamuni: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Money is decreased, value of, all over the world. Because it is not money actually; it is paper, cheating. Real money is gold, they will not allow to keep this gold. The whole policy is vicious. If I purchase gold with five lakhs of rupees, then it is real money, and after five years I can sell it seven lakhs . That they will not allow. Therefore I . . . my policy is that whatever money is there, spend. Don't keep. In land, and produce food. That is the best use of. All buildings, government, there is no need of. And instead of keeping money and take interest, you print books. That is also good. You can sell. Or you purchase land for producing food. Gargamuni: If we stock money, then there'll be no preaching. But if we print books, then we have to sell the books. So that is preaching. Prabhupāda: Therefore I am insisting all over, "Print any book." Never mind either Hindi or English or any . . . print book and keep it in stock, nicely. Gargamuni: And gradually we will sell. Then we will preach. Otherwise, if we put it in . . . Prabhupāda: That is the purpose of my Bhaktivedanta Trust. Fifty percent must be spent for printing and fifty percent for building. That's all. No money. Don't keep any account. Gargamuni: Then the government will never get envious, because there's nothing there. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we haven't got to keep so many accountant, auditors, and other nonsense, unnecessary expenditure. As soon as there is collection, invest the money in some building or in making some book, book printing. Follow this policy. I am very much eager. I have got money here and there, but I want to spend it in this way. So therefore I am advising take this. We shall invest renovating them and in developing them. Spend money. Don't keep it. Jayapatākā: Yes. So I'll tell them our policy is changed. We don't keep any more money in fixed deposit because it's a losing bargain? Prabhupāda: That's it. Actually it is losing. Actually it is losing. Every day the price . . . just like the price of rice has increased. Jayapatākā: It is up and down. *Prabhupāda: Up and down, now . . . take it. When it goes up it does not come down, generally. So this is practical example. Two months ago you were purchasing two rupees—now two*-eighty. So where is the value of the money? Gargamuni: If we invest in books . . . just like this little pamphlet I printed. It cost me fifty paisa . If we sell it in one month . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: . . . then we will get fifty paisa profit. We will make double our investment. Prabhupāda: That was nicely . . . that was nicely printed. So in this way invest in books or land. We don't want to keep cash. Jayapatākā: And if they want to keep branch or not, that is up to them. We can't give them any money. If they want to keep branch or not, that's up to them. Prabhupāda: That should be up to them. If they keep branch we can take that. They'll go on. Gargamuni: We will tell them frankly that for us to invest in books is more profitable, because after one month we get more. Prabhupāda: We cannot keep money, and without any . . . they will give interest. What is that interest? And he said we have printed fifty paisa and selling hundred paisa . So that much interest they cannot give. They'll give, utmost, ten percent. Ten percent per annum—not even one percent in a month. Gargamuni: Your books will be our bank. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got business. Why shall I keep in the bank? This is the policy. If your money is idle, we can spend it in our books, in our purchasing land, in temple, constructing temple, developing . . . so where you got that water? Water's there? Don't touch that water. Hari-śauri: No, there's one bucket of mixed with half a bucket of hot water. Yesterday what happened, the tank, some blockage there was . . . (end) Prabhupāda: . . . disorder. (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . everything to Bombay. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It is very convenient. Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that is better. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I moved everything to Bombay. Prabhupāda: The main distribution should be from Bombay. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Now because this Usha Printers is much bigger also, and we're getting better quality. Prabhupāda: Saurabha, what news, Bombay? Saurabha: The festival was a very great success. We counted approximately, for the last two days, twenty thousand people must have come. Prabhupāda: Somebody said five hundred. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Somebody came and said that six hundred people Janmāṣṭamī night. Saurabha: It was packed. They were . . . Prabhupāda: I was surprised. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was surprised myself that six hundred people on Janmāṣṭamī night. Saurabha: They were everywhere. Prabhupāda: Who is that nonsense who came and said this? Who is that rascal? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a poor thirteen*-year-old boy. Prabhupāda: Oh. You believed the boy? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but he's . . . Prabhupāda: He's authority. Here you take the information. Why did you believe the boy? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he wasn't here. He just told me last night. I asked him. Prabhupāda: Then how did you believe that boy? Five hundred. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was very surprised myself. Prabhupāda: I know that so many people come, even in ordinary years. Saurabha: They were sitting everywhere, even on the balconies and in the scaffolding. They were everywhere. It was very crowded. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The press and the television people came? Every year the television comes. They televised this? Saurabha: The Film News. Prabhupāda: I was surprised when I heard five hundred—they boycotted or what? Saurabha: For the abhiṣeka ceremony, that lasted about an hour, up till one o'clock, and everyone remained. There were thousands of people. They were just everywhere around. Prabhupāda: I will give you one śālagrāma-śilā. So as it is being worshiped in Māyāpur, it should be worshiped in Bombay also. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to start it now, or in the new temple? Prabhupāda: No, now. Śālagrāma-śilā . It is not difficult. You have seen śālagrāma-śilā ? Saurabha: I have seen. Prabhupāda: So you'll take it and . . . Saurabha: I'm going back tomorrow night. Prabhupāda: So you can take it. So what other news? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What other news, Prabhupāda? Saurabha: Well, now the festival is over, all the holidays are gone, so there's a big crew of people working now. It goes very fast. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Saurabha: And we're putting in the walls of your room. We have started . . . Prabhupāda: What is the length and breadth of my room? Saurabha: Well, it has different shapes. It's difficult to say. But the main room, the sitting room, is about, altogether, about 900 square foot. (loud cracking sound) Prabhupāda: Oh, this business is going on. Devotee: Mahāṁśa went down and stopped it. Prabhupāda: Everyone can go, but the business will go on. Saurabha: So that is your sitting room. Then you have a bedroom. Prabhupāda: What is the sitting room? Saurabha: That is about 900, no 850 square foot. Prabhupāda: Eight hundred means length and breadth? Saurabha: I'll have to think. Because it consists of three rooms. Prabhupāda: So people were enthusiastic to come to our festival? Saurabha: Oh, yes. Very much. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Saurabha: I mean, this place, when it is finished, it will be the most popular temple in Bombay. Prabhupāda: They have done. Saurabha: It's the biggest. It's already the biggest. So this is the building (unfolding plans), and these three rooms—this is 32 by 32—is your sitting room, where you can receive people. Then here is your bedroom, and here is the secretary room, here is kitchen, and here is servant room. So personally you have this, four rooms. Prabhupāda: What are these? Saurabha: This is the elevator. Prabhupāda: Oh. Saurabha: This is elevator. Then this is the entry where the people can wait in case many people are there. Here's the secretary. This is the kitchen and . . . Hari-śauri: Bathroom? Saurabha: That is . . . that is . . . like those things come out here. That is all connected with the room. So your bedroom, you have one toilet here and one shower here, each side. Prabhupāda: That's good. Saurabha: This is very nice, quite big. Then on the roof you have practically the whole roof, plus a room in the middle. Here is a room on the roof, the next slide, room here, and then you have just a nice terrace and very nice breeze. Prabhupāda: All sides open. *Saurabha: Yes, this is open. Well, we have arches here, just arches, for the . . . now we are finishing for the temple the second*-floor slab. That should be finished at the end of the month, and then one more month, the main slab of the darśana-maṇḍapa , and then we start towers, which we already started now precasting. We have rings. We make rings which we put up later, one by one. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is by ring. Saurabha: Yes, we make rings out of concrete, and then we . . . with a rod we keep holes in it, and then we just put them on top and it's . . . because for Māyāpur, we get into Māyāpur, we're trying it out if that is possible to do that there, because there are so many domes. So this system is very practical because you can cast at site, and then with a crane you bring it up and then it's fixed. Because this short ring, to make a tower on top of a building is very troublesome. Prabhupāda: This ring, concrete ring? Saurabha: Yes, concrete. Reinforced. Most of the rings are one foot and some, when it is straight, you make two feet. It depends. Then all the guest rooms we have marble on the floor, because that is very much liked in Bombay especially, to have marble. The halls, they are kota stone. Prabhupāda: So there is proposal to provide a bank? Saurabha: Yes. I have the area already marked out. There's about four or five banks that are very interested. Prabhupāda: Which bank are interested? Saurabha: The Indian Overseas Bank. That is the bank most interested at the time now. Then the State Bank of India. Prabhupāda: State Bank of India. That is better. Saurabha: That is better. Then the Syndicate Bank and the . . . Prabhupāda: So the charges will be four rupees. Saurabha: Four or four and a half. Prabhupāda: Yes. So best. Whoever gives the best. Saurabha: Yeah. And then one year in advance payment? Prabhupāda: Yes, if we get from . . . Saurabha: Of course, the location is excellent. It is . . . this is . . . there's two towers, and here is the road. Here is that, our road, going to our land in the back. Here is the main entry. Here is the temple in the back. So these two on the ground floor are meant for bank. So people can come right from here, and here is an entry. So place is the best for the bank. So they all want that place. So you think State Bank of India is the best? Prabhupāda: No, as you think. Saurabha: I don't know very much, but Gopāla said that the Indian Overseas Bank is an upcoming bank as well as Syndicate Bank, so they may be more eager for this. Prabhupāda: Syndicate Bank is not very . . . Saurabha: I also think to have a big bank is better. Prabhupāda: Big bank is better. And who pays the best price. Saurabha: The best. And also the facilities. Now, in the floor we start tiling, the basement floor . . . under the Deities there we have a basement. So there we have started the flooring, tiling, and now we have decided on all the other parts of the building, for the stone. So they promised, they say they guarantee, that at the end of this year the building—that means the guesthouse—will be completed. And of course, that includes the temple. The only thing which will definitely go on is the marble work, the carving. That is a very big job. But that we can always continue. That is mainly outside work, finishing. So that we get the inside ready for the opening. Prabhupāda: ISKCON Juhu? That is sufficient address? *Saurabha: Well, this was hand*-delivered. It would be nice if . . . I think now it is sufficient. Many letters come like that now. Prabhupāda: No, we are famous now, Juhu. Saurabha: But your official letters, the name of the street is called Nyer Road. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Saurabha: The name of the street is called A. B. Nyer Road. I never knew that. I thought it was the road in the back. Prabhupāda: No, they said Gandhi . . . Juhu Road? Saurabha: No. Now on the latest letter that I got, I think, from the government it was written A. B. Nyer Road. Maybe it was an old letter, I don't know. When we submitted the new plans for the gurukula building, there was a letter I had to sign about the work, that we have given that to the architect, an official letter so that we can get the permission. And it was written that the plot was on the A. B. Nyer Road, our land. So I inquired, and they said, "Yes, that's the name of that road." Prabhupāda: Is there any signboard, A. B. Nyer Road? Saurabha: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Saurabha: That is only in the back near that new hotel, that Holiday Inn Hotel. This one portion says A. B. Nyer Road. So that road goes like this—here is the Juhu Market, and the road goes . . . Prabhupāda: No, we go on as Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. Saurabha: Yes, that is . . . you don't have to say the road. Prabhupāda: Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. *Saurabha: Yes. Everyone knows. It's no problem. Now, the altar of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, I sent you a picture that showed four columns—one here, one here, one here, and then the top. And here is Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, and here is Lalitā*-Viśākhā. Those columns here, they're not in the front but they're in the back only. In front it is open. Prabhupāda: Open. That's nice. Saurabha: So then that is all right to use that one? Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: Because we need more breadth, this is different size. So that work has been started also. And it will be covered in silk. Prabhupāda: You have seen this temple? Saurabha: I have not gone around, but it looks very nice. Prabhupāda: It is after your design. Saurabha: Yes. But I haven't been in Hyderabad for at least eight months. Prabhupāda: They have done nice. Saurabha: Yes. Mahāṁśa Swami has done very nice. There's many good workers also in the south of India. We had a lot of difficulty in getting those men from Vṛndāvana sent to America for Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Is he anxious to get them? Saurabha: Well, simply because they didn't speak English they delayed so much. Prabhupāda: Now, Kīrtanānanda did not show any anxiety for that. He did not show any anxiety like that, he requires that. So why it is? Saurabha: Well, at that time they wanted. Prabhupāda: That time wanted? That is finished now. Don't bother. Saurabha: All right. Because I spent a lot of time in trying to arrange that. Prabhupāda: That was not successful. That's all right. Saurabha: No. That work is going nice also, isn't it, flooring especially, the marble work. Prabhupāda: Marble. Saurabha: In New Vrindavan. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them do in their own way. Saurabha: They practically do everything themselves. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Saurabha: That is their greatness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Their men are being trained up. Saurabha: That is actually the best. Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: They will be engaged always like that. *Prabhupāda: They have got marble*-polishing machine. Saurabha: Yes. Last night I spoke with Jayapatākā Mahārāja, and he says that the land requisition will be in about two months or something. So whether we should go ahead with trying to purchase land before, or wait till . . .? Prabhupāda: Purchase land? Saurabha: Well, that particular area where the main temple will come, we need about . . . Prabhupāda: So let us wait. Saurabha: Let us wait. So can I start in the meantime to develop the plans? Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: To contact engineers and everything? Now, if I have to pay some money for that type of work, do I take it from the Bombay . . .? It is not much, but some money is there, some expense is there. Prabhupāda: So . . . (break) . . . immediately. You have waited. Why not wait till the researching is there? Saurabha: I have some people, they do practically things for free. They work on it. But they only do that because they know in the future we're going to do it. So if there is too much delay, they may lose faith. *Prabhupāda: Delay? But that's a fact. Unless government gives us land . . . (break) . . . but we . . . we are not Kṛṣṇa. But if we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious strong, then our position is strong. If there is slackness, then they will come to kill us. That we have to see. Āpani ācari' prabhu jīve śikhāilā . Our behavior should be very clear. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." Then it will be . . . this Aghāsura, Bakāsura will come and . . . in the beginning there was Aghāsura, Pūtanā. That Devānanda, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Film," he wanted to do some harm. And he is gone, finished. Nobody talks of Devānanda. They talk of our movement. So if you remain strong in your spiritual activities, these Aghāsura, Bakāsura will come, go. But we should take precaution and counteract to reduce them. Real strength will remain from Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma's strength. Balarāma. Balarāma means strength. Nāyam ātmā bala hīna na labhyaḥ. If you are not supported by Balarāma, then it is not possible. So we have got our Balarāma, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple. Now in Europe we have got Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In France. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Which place? Outside? The farm? Prabhupāda: Very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Exactly like Vṛndāvana, I heard. The Deities are exactly . . . *Prabhupāda: Nitāi*-Gaura and Balarāma. Brajendra-nandana jei kṛṣṇa, śaci-suta haila sei : "He is now Śacī-suta." Balarāma haila nitāi : "And Balarāma has become Nitāi." That's all. These two brothers. And devotees are very nice. So if our devotees remain . . . two hundred devotees there are. Yes. And they are taking prasāda on the open lawn. Very nice. Presently they are growing vegetables sufficient for their consumption and for the Paris temple. Fresh, nice vegetables. Flowers. Grains also they have got—barley and wheat. Milk also. Their own cows. Gargamuni: Cows. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So if there is milk, there is food grain, there is vegetable, so what do you want more? Enough we can grow. They have got two hundred acres of land. Some portion of the land they are utilizing. That is becoming sufficient for them. And if they grow the whole land, they can make good trade. Just like in Philadelphia they are producing so much milk, they are selling outside fifteen hundred dollars per month. Fifteen hundred dollars, how much it is? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fourteen thousand. Saurabha: Twelve thousand. Prabhupāda: That is their income. The Philadelphia they have organized very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Port Royal farm. Very nice. Prabhupāda: And this Paramānanda, he is expert. He's very expert. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He was in New Vrindavan before. Prabhupāda: Yes. So he could not keep in line with Kīrtanānanda. (laughs) Gargamuni: I thought he was in New York farm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the New York farm. Prabhupāda: That is. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in Philadelphia. Gargamuni: Yes, I heard it is very good there. Prabhupāda: His wife is . . . they are making . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Satyabhāmā. Prabhupāda: . . . cāpāṭis . When she brought, it was so thick. And "How shall I eat this?" But when I ate, it was so nice. Soft and sweet. I ate everything. Jayapatākā: Devotees have brought from the farm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe she should come here to cook for you. *Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. No, they are very happy. All the boys and girls are very happy. Sit down. So that I want, that live happily and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want unnecessary luxury. Anartha. Anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Anartha should be reduced, nil; bare necessities. Anartha . . . just like this material things we require for preaching. That is not anartha . But when it is used for sense gratification, that is anartha . Anything for sense gratification, that is unwanted, anartha . And anything for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is spiritual. Jayapatākā: Anukūla . Prabhupāda: Anukūla. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). So whatever we are using, that is not material. It is all spiritual. Hmm. So what are these? So . . . Mahabaleshwar . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I've cancelled it. I'll send tickets for . . . Prabhupāda: So two strong opinion was against. One Kanadaji, another Gargamuni. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Another? Prabhupāda: Gargamuni. He was also not in favor, going to hill station. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, that's fine. When you come to Bombay in October, you can go, October or November, whenever you come . . . Prabhupāda: Hill station, I have also heard—I do not know—that during rainy season they get some diarrhea. Gargamuni: Get some what? Prabhupāda: Get some diarrhea. And that hill diarrhea is not . . . Gargamuni: Good. Prabhupāda: Not at all. Gargamuni: Best season for hill station is May and June. May and June. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's when most people go—in the summer months. Gargamuni: Very nice. Very warm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Summer period. Saurabha: Most people in the rainy season, they all leave that place, many houses. They close it all. Gargamuni: Yes. In Simla and Nainital everyone leaves after June. Saurabha: But after the rainy season? Gargamuni: Yes, in October again they go back. Prabhupāda: Rainy season is bad on the whole. Saurabha: That place, yeah. But the rest of the year it's excellent. Prabhupāda: That all right. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But I've told that Mr. Malhotra to come and see you here . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . directly, because he wants to meet you. Actually he wasn't . . . after meeting you, he'll decide. Thirty*-five acres of land. It has a dak bungalow. Saurabha: Yes, we went there about one and a half months ago. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We saw the place. Prabhupāda: So can you . . . you have . . . give me a site plans. Saurabha: Yes, I . . . approximately? Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: You want me to show you? Prabhupāda: No, you can . . . not immediately . . . you can give me very nice, where is the bungalow, where is the . . . you can give. Saurabha: But these two people, they are very much in favor. They were all the time, when we went . . . Prabhupāda: No, if it is nice, we shall take it. Why not? Saurabha: It is beautiful. It's very beautiful. Prabhupāda: It's near Bombay. So if you can go and come . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bombay is going to be so big when the building is completed. Saurabha: It's on a hill, but the land is flat so you can cultivate it. Prabhupāda: So it is very good. Saurabha: It's excellent. And from there you can see down. You look down, and then you see the river Kṛṣṇā. Prabhupāda: It is a plateau. Saurabha: Yes, a plateau. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: See the river Kṛṣṇā. Saurabha: Yes, you can just see the river flowing down there. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is beautiful spot. Saurabha: It's very, very beautiful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And he wants us to develop it. Prabhupāda: Oh, we develop. We shall spend lakhs , two lakhs , three lakhs , as you . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So he wants us to give him a proposal . . . Saurabha: And it has been . . . they have been doing agriculture before, there, so it's in very good state. You don't have to do much. Prabhupāda: Oh, then we shall take it. What is use of going? He has seen already. Take it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no, he wanted you to see it. That was . . . Prabhupāda: That, we shall go in October. We shall go there. So when Saurabha has seen, that is my seeing. You give me a site plan. And we shall take it and develop it. Gargamuni: So many of our men get ill health. They can go there . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: . . . and then come back. Then we don't have to send them to America . . . Prabhupāda: No. Gargamuni: . . . because of being sick. Prabhupāda: No. Gargamuni: We need a place—health. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda wrote . . . he wrote that to me last year, to get a hill station . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. The Mahabaleshwar is well known. Yes. Jayapatākā: They have nice cows there, nice vegetables. Saurabha: Oh, yes. They has that. Everywhere, that . . . what is the name of that root we ate on ekādaśī ? Prabhupāda: So take it and develop according to your plan. Develop. Saurabha: It's a place known for strawberry cultivation. Prabhupāda: What do you think will be the expenditure to develop it into a nice place? Saurabha: For agriculture I can't say, but according to me, it is all level. They have leveled everything out. It's like a terrace. It's just . . . we can start growing anything there—potatoes, grains, strawberries, fruits. Prabhupāda: Now for residential quarter there is already bungalow. Saurabha: There is a bungalow with four big . . . it's a big bungalow. And stone is available there, just like here in Hyderabad. At the back of the land it's like a rocky area. One small portion that is so much stone there available, so you can just build from the stone anything. The land can be used for the cement, instead of cement. So very cheap you can build there. Prabhupāda: One lakh rupees? No. Saurabha: Well, it depends how many devotees are going to stay. But for a farm, I think . . . Prabhupāda: Say ten rooms. Saurabha: Ten rooms. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The gṛhasthas from Bombay could be moved over there. Prabhupāda: No, gṛhasthas can go to the farm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they can go from Bombay to there. They can cultivate our farm. Saurabha: For sixty thousand rupees we can build sufficient accommodation, and then the rest we need for . . . Prabhupāda: So we can spend up to one lakh and make more rooms. Saurabha: Yes. And when you come there, the house is sufficient for you to stay. It's very nice. Big rooms. Prabhupāda: So we shall go in October. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: October. Saurabha: There's three big wells available. Three big wells are there. Prabhupāda: Wells? Very good. Saurabha: Three. And according to me, these people, they also want to invest money in that project. The people themselves, they want to give also money for developing. No? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. They want to turn it over to us . . . Prabhupāda: And that do. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . if we give them guarantee that we will develop it. Prabhupāda: No, no, we shall do. You guarantee that. The decision is made. So you can take . . . (indistinct) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And from what I've heard, this Malhotra is a very—Girirāja told me—very, very nice man. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is not going to . . . he's a very, very rich man himself, so he's not really trying to cheat us or anything. Prabhupāda: That decision is made. It is a very well known place, Mahabaleshwar. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Mahabaleshwar. Saurabha: Just on the other side of the plateau you have that RMA, ARA? No. That institute . . . (indistinct discussion) Prabhupāda: Aurobindo? Saurabha: No. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Mahabaleshwar is also the summer capital of Mahara . . . all the government ministers have their meetings there. And this Bhogilal Patel's son, he was saying that he knows all the big people there, so can introduce me to the chairman of the local municipality . . . Prabhupāda: So we must have a big temple there. Saurabha: MRA? It's a moral institute. It's very big. Prabhupāda: MRA? Saurabha: MRA, yes. Prabhupāda: Moral . . .? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Moral Re*-armament. Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: It's just on the other side. Prabhupāda: So it is still existing? Saurabha: Oh, yes. The building is excellent, but nothing is going on. Only twice a year they have a meeting. But it's very well built. Prabhupāda: Their propaganda is that, "You . . ." Christian program. "You do whatever you like. You simply admit. Confession. Then you'll be . . ." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Atone. Prabhupāda: This is morality. "You commit immorality as much as you like, you simply admit it. Then it's right." This is their . . . they do not want to stop immorality. "You do, and don't hide it—you admit." But persons are so shameless that they will continually do, and they have no shamefulness to hide even. That is the Christian theory that, "Our religion is so . . . we may do. We are unable to remain without any sin. Christ will excuse us." Is it not? This is going on. Saurabha: They're also criticized a lot there. They have been criticized a lot there locally. People, they think they are CIA. Prabhupāda: Oh. Us? Saurabha: No. The MRA. Because they have big meetings twice a year only, and they just . . . Prabhupāda: The MRA, they are Americans? Saurabha: Yes. Most are Europeans, Americans. Most. Prabhupāda: This movement was started by President Eisenhower with the help of a Christian priest. Saurabha: Now the son of Gandhi, he is the main president . . . Prabhupāda: Who? Saurabha: The son of Mahatma Gandhi. Prabhupāda: Shri Ramdas Gandhi? Saurabha: He's the head man of that institute there. And then some very big European industrialists, they are also involved. They've spent two crores of rupees on that complex. It's very well maintained also. I went into the building. It's excellent. But there is nobody. Prabhupāda: Eh? Nobody. (break) (loud kīrtana in background) So he can immediately come. Mahāṁśa: The door is ready, so when you go for a bath . . . Prabhupāda: No, he can come. Mahāṁśa: Now he can come? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa Swami is . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: He's very sincere. Prabhupāda: And everyone likes him. Hari-śauri: Yes. He's very popular with the Life Members. Prabhupāda: He has no enemy. Nobody has complained against him. *Hari-śauri: He's very even*-tempered. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Neither he has complained against anybody. He does not complain, and nobody complains against him. That means . . . (indistinct) . . . his mother was very much sorry. Now she is very happy. Hari-śauri: He joined in the West? Prabhupāda: He is Parsi. Hari-śauri: He's not Indian. Prabhupāda: No, he is Indian. India, there is Parsi community. Indian Parsi means that originally they come from Iran. Hari-śauri: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Prabhupāda: They are Iranian. But on account of Muhammadans forcibly standing within the way . . . Aurangzeb came. Muhammadans, they came. They fled from Iran sixth century, and took shelter in the western part of India. They took shelter in Gujarat. Persia . . . I think Iran was known as Persia. Hari-śauri: Yes. At least that area, anyway. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are known as Parsi. In their ritualistic ceremonies some . . . (indistinct) . . . married. Hari-śauri: Yes. I saw all the women, they keep themselves covered and everything. Prabhupāda: Sārī ? Hari-śauri: Most of them were wearing trousers. Prabhupāda: No. Parsis are well known for sārīs . Hari-śauri: In Iran, though, I saw most of the women wear . . . under those black veils they were actually wearing trousers. Prabhupāda: Not wearing sārīs ? (long pause) Prabhupāda: We have no problems except this immigration. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's the main thing. Prabhupāda: Otherwise we have . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: By the time they've finished all their investigations, they'll . . . eventually they'll have to let us come. At least maybe in Calcutta it will be easier. In Calcutta, with the authorities there, if we get this . . . if we start building Māyāpur, then they'll be a lot more lenient about letting us stay. Prabhupāda: That is already . . . Hari-śauri: Yes. They've taken the best area of . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I think this leg swelling is gone. Hari-śauri: Yes. It only came when we were in Iran because of the altitude. Then, as soon as we left, it went away again. That doctor in New York, he said it was because when your blood pressure goes up, then it's difficult for the heart to pump. So then fluid forms in the leg because of the bad blood circulation. Prabhupāda: That was his diagnosis. Hari-śauri: Yes. So as soon as we came . . . like in New Vrindavan, a little bit high, then again it changes over. But then, as soon as we left, then it stopped again. Prabhupāda: Then this Mahabaleshwar will not be . . . Hari-śauri: No. If it's very high, the altitude will not be so good. As soon as we arrived in Iran, immediately the next day the swelling was there. I don't know how high this will be, but New Vrindavan is not so high. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes? Hari-śauri: I think someone said about 1200 feet. Not very much. But that may be because the atmosphere in the hills is a little rarified as well. Prabhupāda: I had vision of . . . (indistinct) . . . more than going to the hill . . . (indistinct) . . . it is higher than sea level anyway. Therefore this northern portion of India is called upper. Hari-śauri: Where the mountains begin. Prabhupāda: It is very higher than the sea level. It is called upper because it is much higher, very high from the ocean. But I was . . . Vṛndāvana is also that part of . . . (indistinct) . . . only Bengal is not upper. Hari-śauri: Yes, it's low. Prabhupāda: It is near the sea, so . . . (end) Prabhupāda: . . . disorder. (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . everything to Bombay. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It is very convenient. Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that is better. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I moved everything to Bombay. Prabhupāda: The main distribution should be from Bombay. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Now because this Usha Printers is much bigger also, and we're getting better quality. Prabhupāda: Saurabha, what news, Bombay? Saurabha: The festival was a very great success. We counted approximately, for the last two days, twenty thousand people must have come. Prabhupāda: Somebody said five hundred. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Somebody came and said that six hundred people Janmāṣṭamī night. Saurabha: It was packed. They were . . . Prabhupāda: I was surprised. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was surprised myself that six hundred people on Janmāṣṭamī night. Saurabha: They were everywhere. Prabhupāda: Who is that nonsense who came and said this? Who is that rascal? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a poor thirteen*-year-old boy. Prabhupāda: Oh. You believed the boy? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but he's . . . Prabhupāda: He's authority. Here you take the information. Why did you believe the boy? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he wasn't here. He just told me last night. I asked him. Prabhupāda: Then how did you believe that boy? Five hundred. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was very surprised myself. Prabhupāda: I know that so many people come, even in ordinary years. Saurabha: They were sitting everywhere, even on the balconies and in the scaffolding. They were everywhere. It was very crowded. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The press and the television people came? Every year the television comes. They televised this? Saurabha: The Film News. Prabhupāda: I was surprised when I heard five hundred—they boycotted or what? Saurabha: For the abhiṣeka ceremony, that lasted about an hour, up till one o'clock, and everyone remained. There were thousands of people. They were just everywhere around. Prabhupāda: I will give you one śālagrāma-śilā. So as it is being worshiped in Māyāpur, it should be worshiped in Bombay also. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to start it now, or in the new temple? Prabhupāda: No, now. Śālagrāma-śilā . It is not difficult. You have seen śālagrāma-śilā ? Saurabha: I have seen. Prabhupāda: So you'll take it and . . . Saurabha: I'm going back tomorrow night. Prabhupāda: So you can take it. So what other news? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What other news, Prabhupāda? Saurabha: Well, now the festival is over, all the holidays are gone, so there's a big crew of people working now. It goes very fast. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Saurabha: And we're putting in the walls of your room. We have started . . . Prabhupāda: What is the length and breadth of my room? Saurabha: Well, it has different shapes. It's difficult to say. But the main room, the sitting room, is about, altogether, about 900 square foot. (loud cracking sound) Prabhupāda: Oh, this business is going on. Devotee: Mahāṁśa went down and stopped it. Prabhupāda: Everyone can go, but the business will go on. Saurabha: So that is your sitting room. Then you have a bedroom. Prabhupāda: What is the sitting room? Saurabha: That is about 900, no 850 square foot. Prabhupāda: Eight hundred means length and breadth? Saurabha: I'll have to think. Because it consists of three rooms. Prabhupāda: So people were enthusiastic to come to our festival? Saurabha: Oh, yes. Very much. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Saurabha: I mean, this place, when it is finished, it will be the most popular temple in Bombay. Prabhupāda: They have done. Saurabha: It's the biggest. It's already the biggest. So this is the building (unfolding plans), and these three rooms—this is 32 by 32—is your sitting room, where you can receive people. Then here is your bedroom, and here is the secretary room, here is kitchen, and here is servant room. So personally you have this, four rooms. Prabhupāda: What are these? Saurabha: This is the elevator. Prabhupāda: Oh. Saurabha: This is elevator. Then this is the entry where the people can wait in case many people are there. Here's the secretary. This is the kitchen and . . . Hari-śauri: Bathroom? Saurabha: That is . . . that is . . . like those things come out here. That is all connected with the room. So your bedroom, you have one toilet here and one shower here, each side. Prabhupāda: That's good. Saurabha: This is very nice, quite big. Then on the roof you have practically the whole roof, plus a room in the middle. Here is a room on the roof, the next slide, room here, and then you have just a nice terrace and very nice breeze. Prabhupāda: All sides open. *Saurabha: Yes, this is open. Well, we have arches here, just arches, for the . . . now we are finishing for the temple the second*-floor slab. That should be finished at the end of the month, and then one more month, the main slab of the darśana-maṇḍapa , and then we start towers, which we already started now precasting. We have rings. We make rings which we put up later, one by one. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is by ring. Saurabha: Yes, we make rings out of concrete, and then we . . . with a rod we keep holes in it, and then we just put them on top and it's . . . because for Māyāpur, we get into Māyāpur, we're trying it out if that is possible to do that there, because there are so many domes. So this system is very practical because you can cast at site, and then with a crane you bring it up and then it's fixed. Because this short ring, to make a tower on top of a building is very troublesome. Prabhupāda: This ring, concrete ring? Saurabha: Yes, concrete. Reinforced. Most of the rings are one foot and some, when it is straight, you make two feet. It depends. Then all the guest rooms we have marble on the floor, because that is very much liked in Bombay especially, to have marble. The halls, they are kota stone. Prabhupāda: So there is proposal to provide a bank? Saurabha: Yes. I have the area already marked out. There's about four or five banks that are very interested. Prabhupāda: Which bank are interested? Saurabha: The Indian Overseas Bank. That is the bank most interested at the time now. Then the State Bank of India. Prabhupāda: State Bank of India. That is better. Saurabha: That is better. Then the Syndicate Bank and the . . . Prabhupāda: So the charges will be four rupees. Saurabha: Four or four and a half. Prabhupāda: Yes. So best. Whoever gives the best. Saurabha: Yeah. And then one year in advance payment? Prabhupāda: Yes, if we get from . . . Saurabha: Of course, the location is excellent. It is . . . this is . . . there's two towers, and here is the road. Here is that, our road, going to our land in the back. Here is the main entry. Here is the temple in the back. So these two on the ground floor are meant for bank. So people can come right from here, and here is an entry. So place is the best for the bank. So they all want that place. So you think State Bank of India is the best? Prabhupāda: No, as you think. Saurabha: I don't know very much, but Gopāla said that the Indian Overseas Bank is an upcoming bank as well as Syndicate Bank, so they may be more eager for this. Prabhupāda: Syndicate Bank is not very . . . Saurabha: I also think to have a big bank is better. Prabhupāda: Big bank is better. And who pays the best price. Saurabha: The best. And also the facilities. Now, in the floor we start tiling, the basement floor . . . under the Deities there we have a basement. So there we have started the flooring, tiling, and now we have decided on all the other parts of the building, for the stone. So they promised, they say they guarantee, that at the end of this year the building—that means the guesthouse—will be completed. And of course, that includes the temple. The only thing which will definitely go on is the marble work, the carving. That is a very big job. But that we can always continue. That is mainly outside work, finishing. So that we get the inside ready for the opening. Prabhupāda: ISKCON Juhu? That is sufficient address? *Saurabha: Well, this was hand*-delivered. It would be nice if . . . I think now it is sufficient. Many letters come like that now. Prabhupāda: No, we are famous now, Juhu. Saurabha: But your official letters, the name of the street is called Nyer Road. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Saurabha: The name of the street is called A. B. Nyer Road. I never knew that. I thought it was the road in the back. Prabhupāda: No, they said Gandhi . . . Juhu Road? Saurabha: No. Now on the latest letter that I got, I think, from the government it was written A. B. Nyer Road. Maybe it was an old letter, I don't know. When we submitted the new plans for the gurukula building, there was a letter I had to sign about the work, that we have given that to the architect, an official letter so that we can get the permission. And it was written that the plot was on the A. B. Nyer Road, our land. So I inquired, and they said, "Yes, that's the name of that road." Prabhupāda: Is there any signboard, A. B. Nyer Road? Saurabha: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Saurabha: That is only in the back near that new hotel, that Holiday Inn Hotel. This one portion says A. B. Nyer Road. So that road goes like this—here is the Juhu Market, and the road goes . . . Prabhupāda: No, we go on as Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. Saurabha: Yes, that is . . . you don't have to say the road. Prabhupāda: Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. *Saurabha: Yes. Everyone knows. It's no problem. Now, the altar of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, I sent you a picture that showed four columns—one here, one here, one here, and then the top. And here is Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, and here is Lalitā*-Viśākhā. Those columns here, they're not in the front but they're in the back only. In front it is open. Prabhupāda: Open. That's nice. Saurabha: So then that is all right to use that one? Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: Because we need more breadth, this is different size. So that work has been started also. And it will be covered in silk. Prabhupāda: You have seen this temple? Saurabha: I have not gone around, but it looks very nice. Prabhupāda: It is after your design. Saurabha: Yes. But I haven't been in Hyderabad for at least eight months. Prabhupāda: They have done nice. Saurabha: Yes. Mahāṁśa Swami has done very nice. There's many good workers also in the south of India. We had a lot of difficulty in getting those men from Vṛndāvana sent to America for Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Is he anxious to get them? Saurabha: Well, simply because they didn't speak English they delayed so much. Prabhupāda: Now, Kīrtanānanda did not show any anxiety for that. He did not show any anxiety like that, he requires that. So why it is? Saurabha: Well, at that time they wanted. Prabhupāda: That time wanted? That is finished now. Don't bother. Saurabha: All right. Because I spent a lot of time in trying to arrange that. Prabhupāda: That was not successful. That's all right. Saurabha: No. That work is going nice also, isn't it, flooring especially, the marble work. Prabhupāda: Marble. Saurabha: In New Vrindavan. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them do in their own way. Saurabha: They practically do everything themselves. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Saurabha: That is their greatness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Their men are being trained up. Saurabha: That is actually the best. Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: They will be engaged always like that. *Prabhupāda: They have got marble*-polishing machine. Saurabha: Yes. Last night I spoke with Jayapatākā Mahārāja, and he says that the land requisition will be in about two months or something. So whether we should go ahead with trying to purchase land before, or wait till . . .? Prabhupāda: Purchase land? Saurabha: Well, that particular area where the main temple will come, we need about . . . Prabhupāda: So let us wait. Saurabha: Let us wait. So can I start in the meantime to develop the plans? Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: To contact engineers and everything? Now, if I have to pay some money for that type of work, do I take it from the Bombay . . .? It is not much, but some money is there, some expense is there. Prabhupāda: So . . . (break) . . . immediately. You have waited. Why not wait till the researching is there? Saurabha: I have some people, they do practically things for free. They work on it. But they only do that because they know in the future we're going to do it. So if there is too much delay, they may lose faith. *Prabhupāda: Delay? But that's a fact. Unless government gives us land . . . (break) . . . but we . . . we are not Kṛṣṇa. But if we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious strong, then our position is strong. If there is slackness, then they will come to kill us. That we have to see. Āpani ācari' prabhu jīve śikhāilā . Our behavior should be very clear. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." Then it will be . . . this Aghāsura, Bakāsura will come and . . . in the beginning there was Aghāsura, Pūtanā. That Devānanda, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Film," he wanted to do some harm. And he is gone, finished. Nobody talks of Devānanda. They talk of our movement. So if you remain strong in your spiritual activities, these Aghāsura, Bakāsura will come, go. But we should take precaution and counteract to reduce them. Real strength will remain from Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma's strength. Balarāma. Balarāma means strength. Nāyam ātmā bala hīna na labhyaḥ. If you are not supported by Balarāma, then it is not possible. So we have got our Balarāma, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple. Now in Europe we have got Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In France. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Which place? Outside? The farm? Prabhupāda: Very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Exactly like Vṛndāvana, I heard. The Deities are exactly . . . *Prabhupāda: Nitāi*-Gaura and Balarāma. Brajendra-nandana jei kṛṣṇa, śaci-suta haila sei : "He is now Śacī-suta." Balarāma haila nitāi : "And Balarāma has become Nitāi." That's all. These two brothers. And devotees are very nice. So if our devotees remain . . . two hundred devotees there are. Yes. And they are taking prasāda on the open lawn. Very nice. Presently they are growing vegetables sufficient for their consumption and for the Paris temple. Fresh, nice vegetables. Flowers. Grains also they have got—barley and wheat. Milk also. Their own cows. Gargamuni: Cows. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So if there is milk, there is food grain, there is vegetable, so what do you want more? Enough we can grow. They have got two hundred acres of land. Some portion of the land they are utilizing. That is becoming sufficient for them. And if they grow the whole land, they can make good trade. Just like in Philadelphia they are producing so much milk, they are selling outside fifteen hundred dollars per month. Fifteen hundred dollars, how much it is? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fourteen thousand. Saurabha: Twelve thousand. Prabhupāda: That is their income. The Philadelphia they have organized very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Port Royal farm. Very nice. Prabhupāda: And this Paramānanda, he is expert. He's very expert. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He was in New Vrindavan before. Prabhupāda: Yes. So he could not keep in line with Kīrtanānanda. (laughs) Gargamuni: I thought he was in New York farm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the New York farm. Prabhupāda: That is. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in Philadelphia. Gargamuni: Yes, I heard it is very good there. Prabhupāda: His wife is . . . they are making . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Satyabhāmā. Prabhupāda: . . . cāpāṭis . When she brought, it was so thick. And "How shall I eat this?" But when I ate, it was so nice. Soft and sweet. I ate everything. Jayapatākā: Devotees have brought from the farm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe she should come here to cook for you. *Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. No, they are very happy. All the boys and girls are very happy. Sit down. So that I want, that live happily and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want unnecessary luxury. Anartha. Anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Anartha should be reduced, nil; bare necessities. Anartha . . . just like this material things we require for preaching. That is not anartha . But when it is used for sense gratification, that is anartha . Anything for sense gratification, that is unwanted, anartha . And anything for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is spiritual. Jayapatākā: Anukūla . Prabhupāda: Anukūla. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). So whatever we are using, that is not material. It is all spiritual. Hmm. So what are these? So . . . Mahabaleshwar . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I've cancelled it. I'll send tickets for . . . Prabhupāda: So two strong opinion was against. One Kanadaji, another Gargamuni. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Another? Prabhupāda: Gargamuni. He was also not in favor, going to hill station. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, that's fine. When you come to Bombay in October, you can go, October or November, whenever you come . . . Prabhupāda: Hill station, I have also heard—I do not know—that during rainy season they get some diarrhea. Gargamuni: Get some what? Prabhupāda: Get some diarrhea. And that hill diarrhea is not . . . Gargamuni: Good. Prabhupāda: Not at all. Gargamuni: Best season for hill station is May and June. May and June. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's when most people go—in the summer months. Gargamuni: Very nice. Very warm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Summer period. Saurabha: Most people in the rainy season, they all leave that place, many houses. They close it all. Gargamuni: Yes. In Simla and Nainital everyone leaves after June. Saurabha: But after the rainy season? Gargamuni: Yes, in October again they go back. Prabhupāda: Rainy season is bad on the whole. Saurabha: That place, yeah. But the rest of the year it's excellent. Prabhupāda: That all right. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But I've told that Mr. Malhotra to come and see you here . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . directly, because he wants to meet you. Actually he wasn't . . . after meeting you, he'll decide. Thirty*-five acres of land. It has a dak bungalow. Saurabha: Yes, we went there about one and a half months ago. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We saw the place. Prabhupāda: So can you . . . you have . . . give me a site plans. Saurabha: Yes, I . . . approximately? Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: You want me to show you? Prabhupāda: No, you can . . . not immediately . . . you can give me very nice, where is the bungalow, where is the . . . you can give. Saurabha: But these two people, they are very much in favor. They were all the time, when we went . . . Prabhupāda: No, if it is nice, we shall take it. Why not? Saurabha: It is beautiful. It's very beautiful. Prabhupāda: It's near Bombay. So if you can go and come . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bombay is going to be so big when the building is completed. Saurabha: It's on a hill, but the land is flat so you can cultivate it. Prabhupāda: So it is very good. Saurabha: It's excellent. And from there you can see down. You look down, and then you see the river Kṛṣṇā. Prabhupāda: It is a plateau. Saurabha: Yes, a plateau. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: See the river Kṛṣṇā. Saurabha: Yes, you can just see the river flowing down there. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is beautiful spot. Saurabha: It's very, very beautiful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And he wants us to develop it. Prabhupāda: Oh, we develop. We shall spend lakhs , two lakhs , three lakhs , as you . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So he wants us to give him a proposal . . . Saurabha: And it has been . . . they have been doing agriculture before, there, so it's in very good state. You don't have to do much. Prabhupāda: Oh, then we shall take it. What is use of going? He has seen already. Take it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no, he wanted you to see it. That was . . . Prabhupāda: That, we shall go in October. We shall go there. So when Saurabha has seen, that is my seeing. You give me a site plan. And we shall take it and develop it. Gargamuni: So many of our men get ill health. They can go there . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: . . . and then come back. Then we don't have to send them to America . . . Prabhupāda: No. Gargamuni: . . . because of being sick. Prabhupāda: No. Gargamuni: We need a place—health. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda wrote . . . he wrote that to me last year, to get a hill station . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. The Mahabaleshwar is well known. Yes. Jayapatākā: They have nice cows there, nice vegetables. Saurabha: Oh, yes. They has that. Everywhere, that . . . what is the name of that root we ate on ekādaśī ? Prabhupāda: So take it and develop according to your plan. Develop. Saurabha: It's a place known for strawberry cultivation. Prabhupāda: What do you think will be the expenditure to develop it into a nice place? Saurabha: For agriculture I can't say, but according to me, it is all level. They have leveled everything out. It's like a terrace. It's just . . . we can start growing anything there—potatoes, grains, strawberries, fruits. Prabhupāda: Now for residential quarter there is already bungalow. Saurabha: There is a bungalow with four big . . . it's a big bungalow. And stone is available there, just like here in Hyderabad. At the back of the land it's like a rocky area. One small portion that is so much stone there available, so you can just build from the stone anything. The land can be used for the cement, instead of cement. So very cheap you can build there. Prabhupāda: One lakh rupees? No. Saurabha: Well, it depends how many devotees are going to stay. But for a farm, I think . . . Prabhupāda: Say ten rooms. Saurabha: Ten rooms. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The gṛhasthas from Bombay could be moved over there. Prabhupāda: No, gṛhasthas can go to the farm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they can go from Bombay to there. They can cultivate our farm. Saurabha: For sixty thousand rupees we can build sufficient accommodation, and then the rest we need for . . . Prabhupāda: So we can spend up to one lakh and make more rooms. Saurabha: Yes. And when you come there, the house is sufficient for you to stay. It's very nice. Big rooms. Prabhupāda: So we shall go in October. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: October. Saurabha: There's three big wells available. Three big wells are there. Prabhupāda: Wells? Very good. Saurabha: Three. And according to me, these people, they also want to invest money in that project. The people themselves, they want to give also money for developing. No? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. They want to turn it over to us . . . Prabhupāda: And that do. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . if we give them guarantee that we will develop it. Prabhupāda: No, no, we shall do. You guarantee that. The decision is made. So you can take . . . (indistinct) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And from what I've heard, this Malhotra is a very—Girirāja told me—very, very nice man. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is not going to . . . he's a very, very rich man himself, so he's not really trying to cheat us or anything. Prabhupāda: That decision is made. It is a very well known place, Mahabaleshwar. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Mahabaleshwar. Saurabha: Just on the other side of the plateau you have that RMA, ARA? No. That institute . . . (indistinct discussion) Prabhupāda: Aurobindo? Saurabha: No. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Mahabaleshwar is also the summer capital of Mahara . . . all the government ministers have their meetings there. And this Bhogilal Patel's son, he was saying that he knows all the big people there, so can introduce me to the chairman of the local municipality . . . Prabhupāda: So we must have a big temple there. Saurabha: MRA? It's a moral institute. It's very big. Prabhupāda: MRA? Saurabha: MRA, yes. Prabhupāda: Moral . . .? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Moral Re*-armament. Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: It's just on the other side. Prabhupāda: So it is still existing? Saurabha: Oh, yes. The building is excellent, but nothing is going on. Only twice a year they have a meeting. But it's very well built. Prabhupāda: Their propaganda is that, "You . . ." Christian program. "You do whatever you like. You simply admit. Confession. Then you'll be . . ." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Atone. Prabhupāda: This is morality. "You commit immorality as much as you like, you simply admit it. Then it's right." This is their . . . they do not want to stop immorality. "You do, and don't hide it—you admit." But persons are so shameless that they will continually do, and they have no shamefulness to hide even. That is the Christian theory that, "Our religion is so . . . we may do. We are unable to remain without any sin. Christ will excuse us." Is it not? This is going on. Saurabha: They're also criticized a lot there. They have been criticized a lot there locally. People, they think they are CIA. Prabhupāda: Oh. Us? Saurabha: No. The MRA. Because they have big meetings twice a year only, and they just . . . Prabhupāda: The MRA, they are Americans? Saurabha: Yes. Most are Europeans, Americans. Most. Prabhupāda: This movement was started by President Eisenhower with the help of a Christian priest. Saurabha: Now the son of Gandhi, he is the main president . . . Prabhupāda: Who? Saurabha: The son of Mahatma Gandhi. Prabhupāda: Shri Ramdas Gandhi? Saurabha: He's the head man of that institute there. And then some very big European industrialists, they are also involved. They've spent two crores of rupees on that complex. It's very well maintained also. I went into the building. It's excellent. But there is nobody. Prabhupāda: Eh? Nobody. (break) (loud kīrtana in background) So he can immediately come. Mahāṁśa: The door is ready, so when you go for a bath . . . Prabhupāda: No, he can come. Mahāṁśa: Now he can come? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa Swami is . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: He's very sincere. Prabhupāda: And everyone likes him. Hari-śauri: Yes. He's very popular with the Life Members. Prabhupāda: He has no enemy. Nobody has complained against him. *Hari-śauri: He's very even*-tempered. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Neither he has complained against anybody. He does not complain, and nobody complains against him. That means . . . (indistinct) . . . his mother was very much sorry. Now she is very happy. Hari-śauri: He joined in the West? Prabhupāda: He is Parsi. Hari-śauri: He's not Indian. Prabhupāda: No, he is Indian. India, there is Parsi community. Indian Parsi means that originally they come from Iran. Hari-śauri: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Prabhupāda: They are Iranian. But on account of Muhammadans forcibly standing within the way . . . Aurangzeb came. Muhammadans, they came. They fled from Iran sixth century, and took shelter in the western part of India. They took shelter in Gujarat. Persia . . . I think Iran was known as Persia. Hari-śauri: Yes. At least that area, anyway. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are known as Parsi. In their ritualistic ceremonies some . . . (indistinct) . . . married. Hari-śauri: Yes. I saw all the women, they keep themselves covered and everything. Prabhupāda: Sārī ? Hari-śauri: Most of them were wearing trousers. Prabhupāda: No. Parsis are well known for sārīs . Hari-śauri: In Iran, though, I saw most of the women wear . . . under those black veils they were actually wearing trousers. Prabhupāda: Not wearing sārīs ? (long pause) Prabhupāda: We have no problems except this immigration. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's the main thing. Prabhupāda: Otherwise we have . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: By the time they've finished all their investigations, they'll . . . eventually they'll have to let us come. At least maybe in Calcutta it will be easier. In Calcutta, with the authorities there, if we get this . . . if we start building Māyāpur, then they'll be a lot more lenient about letting us stay. Prabhupāda: That is already . . . Hari-śauri: Yes. They've taken the best area of . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I think this leg swelling is gone. Hari-śauri: Yes. It only came when we were in Iran because of the altitude. Then, as soon as we left, it went away again. That doctor in New York, he said it was because when your blood pressure goes up, then it's difficult for the heart to pump. So then fluid forms in the leg because of the bad blood circulation. Prabhupāda: That was his diagnosis. Hari-śauri: Yes. So as soon as we came . . . like in New Vrindavan, a little bit high, then again it changes over. But then, as soon as we left, then it stopped again. Prabhupāda: Then this Mahabaleshwar will not be . . . Hari-śauri: No. If it's very high, the altitude will not be so good. As soon as we arrived in Iran, immediately the next day the swelling was there. I don't know how high this will be, but New Vrindavan is not so high. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes? Hari-śauri: I think someone said about 1200 feet. Not very much. But that may be because the atmosphere in the hills is a little rarified as well. Prabhupāda: I had vision of . . . (indistinct) . . . more than going to the hill . . . (indistinct) . . . it is higher than sea level anyway. Therefore this northern portion of India is called upper. Hari-śauri: Where the mountains begin. Prabhupāda: It is very higher than the sea level. It is called upper because it is much higher, very high from the ocean. But I was . . . Vṛndāvana is also that part of . . . (indistinct) . . . only Bengal is not upper. Hari-śauri: Yes, it's low. Prabhupāda: It is near the sea, so . . . (end) Jayapatākā: I was with him when he posted the letter. Prabhupāda: But where is that? Jayapatākā: I'll ask him when I see him. Prabhupāda: You have got any copy? No. Jayapatākā: I didn't keep a copy. Prabhupāda: When they submit? Quarterly? Jayapatākā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Part of the money is contribution for construction of my house. Ten thousand. Ten thousand dollars? Jayapatākā: Ten thousand dollars, I think. Jayatīrtha mentioned. Prabhupāda: I am writing one letter to the government that I work hard, I print my books and they are selling, and if I bring the money to construct temple, why people are envious? What is the wrong there? Rather, I should be encouraged that I am bringing so much money in India, foreign exchange, by my hard labor. So why they are envious? Why . . . I have sent this to the governor. Jayapatākā: To the governor? Prabhupāda: Governor, Mr. Chandra Reddy. "Why? Wherefrom they are getting money? Where? why?" That is my money by hard labor, that's all. Is it wrong if a man works hard and gets money in foreign country and bring in India? Gargamuni: I think they cannot believe that a sādhu could have so much money from selling books. *Prabhupāda: That may be beyond their dream, but I am not so*-called sādhu . I am trying to execute the orders of my Guru Mahārāja, predecessor. I am not a so-called sādhu , taking a saffron robe, begging for fulfilling the belly. Gargamuni: They have to accept you as an international leader. Prabhupāda: I must be international leader. Yes, they are surprised how . . . this is unique in the history, that a single person's books are sold in so many large quantities. I don't think any author has sold so many books. Huh? *Gargamuni: In some of the American magazines they publish a best*-seller list of books, and the number of books we sell goes beyond the best-seller list. Prabhupāda: And especially philosophical and religious books. These people do not touch. (laughs) Untouchable. Has even Vivekananda has presented so many books? A small book, Thus spake . . . Gargamuni: "Thus spake." (laughs) Prabhupāda: And what he will write? What does he know? Simply bluffers. Chaliats . Our Bon Mahārāja is also one of the chaliats . What is the English for chaliat ? Jayapatākā: Bluffers? Prabhupāda: Chaliat means he has no assets but he shows that he is very big. That is called chaliat . Jayapatākā: Bluffer. Prabhupāda: Bluffer? Our Tīrtha Mahārāja's Caitanya Research Institute. Here is an Indian Institute for . . . what is that? Bon Mahārāja's? Institute for Indian Culture and Philosophy. But where is your book? You have seen that Tīrtha Mahārāja's one book? The Vedānta as Caitanya Has Seen , like that. And he has given a picture of himself with effulgence on his head. You have seen that? Gargamuni: No, I have not seen that one. In all the mandiras where his picture is there, they have all the ācāryas pictures, but only his picture has the effulgence. Prabhupāda: Such a rascal. He has given Prabhupāda's picture, no effulgence; his picture, effulgence. He's such a rascal. Publicly he's showing. Jayapatākā: But unfortunately that had to be painted in. He could not just show . . . Gargamuni: There's no natural . . . Prabhupāda: Could not illuminate. Remain in darkness. Effulgence in darkness. And such a shameless man, he is giving effulgence in the picture. (break) Gargamuni: . . . gradually we can see that this Society is replacing the Ramakrishna Mission there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gargamuni: We can see practically that this Society, your Society, is replacing this Ramakrishna Mission more and more. Prabhupāda: Why Ramakrishna Mission? We are far above the Ramakrishna Mission. Gargamuni: Yes. As far as the people go. They are all saying "Hare Kṛṣṇa" and . . . they don't even mention . . . sometimes they ask us, "Do you know who Ramakrishna is?" And we say, "No, we have never heard of him." They go, "You have not heard of Ramakrishna?" We say: "No. We only know Prabhupāda and Lord Caitanya. Everybody knows that, and nobody knows who is Ramakrishna." Jayapatākā: They do not know what to say. *Gargamuni: Then they don't know what to say. They say: "You mean you don't know that Chicago Address?" We say: "No. What? Oh, when Prabhupāda went for Ratha*-yātrā? Yes, that we know." Prabhupāda: That Chicago Address was the worst. He is defying, "Why you give credit to God?" This is the . . . we have seen that Chicago Address. Now they are eliminating. Most blasphemous. One Christian priest, he was surprised, "What kind of nonsense these Indians are . . ." He asked him, "How you are speaking in this way, 'Why you are giving credit to God?' " He said like that. "You are working, why you are giving credit to God?" This is Vivekananda's realization. And he created God. A illiterate priest, he become God. Because he said, "I am God." That is the proof. Jayapatākā: Because he said . . .? *Prabhupāda: "I am God. I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." Therefore his name is Ramakrishna. He was Gadadhar Chatterji, and he said to his disciple, Vivekananda, first*-class rogue that, "I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." So he took it. This is evidence. Because Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the Supreme." So he said: "I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." This is the evidence. What Kṛṣṇa can say, he can say also. This institution is the most harmful institution for Vedic culture. *Jayapatākā: At one town, Beturhari, that . . . it is called Nakashiparathana. That's about thirty miles north of Māyāpur. One day in advance they advertised that we were coming and we were having a public showing of the cinema and Nitāi*-Gaura ārati . And they had one maidan called Library Maidan. There was one, like, stage there. Prabhupāda: It is in West Bengal? Jayapatākā: West Bengal. That's in Nadia District. Just before Phulasi, south of Phulasi. And when we came there and I saw the police in the afternoon, we told them we were going to have a function. So they said that they would send a few policemen. They said that, "We will send some policemen for keeping the order." But that night so many people came . . . the space could only hold four thousand, but another two, three thousand people came, and they were turned away because of insufficient space. So they were standing on the wall and on the rooftops all around, and all you could see were people's heads, just like an ocean. The policemen, after it was over . . . when I chanted, I chanted, "Everyone please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And I chanted the full mantra three times. They chanted so loud that even two, three blocks away people thought that the heavens were shouting. It was like a thunder . . . Prabhupāda: Thunderbolt. Jayapatākā: Thunderbolt. And the policemen said that never—even the chief minister came here once—not even half so many people came, and that was announced for one week. This was announced for one day, and more people came than ever before. He said: "This really shows me that the people are hungry for spiritual answer. They have no one to lead them." Gargamuni: And these leaders are simply envious, that's all. The only reason why they're not helping us is because they're envious. Because so many people are interested and no one is interested in them. Prabhupāda: Anyway, our Gītār Gān is selling. *Jayapatākā: Yes. When we stopped at Burdwan, in one place, one boy sold 198 Bhagavad*-gītās , Gītār Gān , without moving. So many Gītās . . . people were just crowding around taking Gītās so much that the local . . . there were some bookstores. They also came, and they said that "We cannot get wholesale? We have never seen such a book sell so well." Gargamuni: Even people come to the temple in Calcutta, they want ten, fifteen copies. Village people. Poor people. They come and say: " Gītār Gān , where is that? I have heard." And they take ten or fifteen copies, they wrap it in their cloth and bring it to the village. It is becoming very popular. Wherever you go, "Where is this Gītār Gān ?" Jayapatākā: I went to Writers' Building, I had four or five copies with me. I didn't go for selling, I went to see ministers. But all the peons, they were buying the Gītār Gāns from me. I sold out. People were coming up with rupees saying: " Gītār Gān ." I didn't have any more. Prabhupāda: Out of their own accord they . . . Gargamuni: No, they've heard of it. It's becoming famous. Jayapatākā: That's our inspiration, that if we can make Gītār Gān and Your Divine Grace famous all over Bengal, then we will feel that our mission . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, I could not write any . . . I wrote some Bengali book, that is now . . . it can be collected from Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha. I continually wrote one book, Bhagavāner Kathā. Jayapatākā: People are begging us for books in Bengali written by Your Divine Grace. We tell them that . . . (aside) There's no time. Prabhupāda: That Subhaga translated. But his translations are not so . . . Gargamuni: No. There's always trouble with translation in local languages, Hindi or Gujarati. Prabhupāda: They do not know the philosophy. Gargamuni: No. And they do the wrong words. *Jayapatākā: Now they have a . . . I put a two*-man team. A two- or three-man team. Subhaga, there's one boy Kiśora, and, what's his name, Tatpur. Between the three of them they check and recheck. Prabhupāda: Tatpur is educated? Jayapatākā: He's got a B.A. or something. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gargamuni: Tatpur has a B.A.? *Jayapatākā: Yes. He doesn't write himself. He writes in old fashion. But he corrects for just double*-checking philosophy. Editing. And this Kiśora, he was a M.A., and he previously used to write. He was an honor student at Calcutta University, and he used to freelance write in Bengali. So his style is very nice. Prabhupāda: Why not engage him in simply . . . Jayapatākā: He is translating now our . . . Gargamuni: That's all he does. Jayapatākā: That, and he greets the guests. He's also good at membership. Prabhupāda: Gītār Gān has become popular. Gargamuni: Yes. That name has become very popular. Everyone is asking: "Where is this Gītār Gān ?" Prabhupāda: So you can register the name so that others may not . . . Jayapatākā: Yes, otherwise they'll cash in on it. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can register it the name. Patron registration. Copyright registration. Gargamuni: I think it says it in the book. Jayapatākā: It says, but you should make sure it's registered. Gargamuni: Gopāla, he printed it. I don't know if he had it registered. It says in the book, "All Rights Reserved." Prabhupāda: That is your statement. But it must be legally protected. Jayapatākā: They may check up and find out not so and then do it. That Bhagavāner Kathā was printed in what book? Do you know? Prabhupāda: They have got a paper— Gauḍīya . *Gargamuni: These books that Gaura*-Govinda, he wants to get printed. How do we know what is being said? I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the . . . one Oria gentleman will come, and get him to read this book. Then I can understand where he stands. Gargamuni: Because he has . . . the Topmost yoga is ready, but I didn't want to print that yet until . . . Prabhupāda: Never mind. I'll . . . after hearing this book I'll let him know. Jayapatākā: After they write everything, then I also read it in Bengali. I can . . . and if I see something that seems a little impersonal or something, I say that . . . Prabhupāda: Correct it. Jayapatākā: Yes, correct it. That much I can do. Prabhupāda: Impersonal idea is in everyone's head. "God has no legs, no head. Simply he has got head." Jayapatākā: I think I can also write to the . . . previously in 1971–72 at the paṇḍāls you used to speak in Bengali some days. I'll write for those tapes. We can . . . Gargamuni: Oh, those tapes. I asked for those tapes so long ago. If we can get those Hindi and Bengali tapes we could have them transcribed, and they can make very good essays. Jayapatākā: All the big English Back to Godhead articles are actually your lectures simply transcribed. So we could transcribe those tapes, and we could have originally your words. Gargamuni: Yes. There were ten days when Prabhupāda spoke in Bengali. Jayapatākā: Twice. Once in Deshapriya Park and once at Maidan. Even today people talk about both festivals. Prabhupāda: Bhagavāner Kathā. Jayapatākā: Bhagavāner Kathā. Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha. Paper of Gauḍīya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gauḍīya , it was published continuously. Jayapatākā: What years we should look? More or less. Prabhupāda: 1950 or little before that. They have got their old Gauḍīyas . Jayapatākā: They must have. Prabhupāda: They were so popular, the report was that the readers of Gauḍīya were only hankering after that Bhagavāner Kathā, and after reading that they will throw away. Other articles, they were not interested. Jayapatākā: So always your writing, people were attracted by. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. Even my teachers were attracted in school days. Jayapatākā: Recently that . . . some professor said that you are the veritable incarnation of Vyāsadeva for Lord Caitanya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Some have said like that. In my matriculation class I wrote some essay, and I got out of 100, 85 marks. But the teacher came to the class, "Who has written this?" So I stood up, and he thanked me, "Yes, it is very nice." He especially came to thank me for that essay. Gargamuni: At least from the human standpoint, it is not humanly possible to have so many books in such a short time. There is no other author, at least that we know. Jayapatākā: I showed your "As Brilliant as the Sun" to Tarun Kanti Gosh and one other minister, and when they saw that, then after, for ten minutes, all they could say was how Prabhupāda, how he is empowered by Lord Gaurāṅga. Prabhupāda: They said like that. Jayapatākā: Yes. That's a good movie, because it simply shows how you are doing so many books. Gargamuni: We also showed that to that Atul Krishna Goswami. He came to Māyāpur. When he saw that, he was so . . . that movie, they had never seen such a thing, the process of printing the books. Prabhupāda: He has good idea about . . . Gargamuni: Oh, yes. *Jayapatākā: He has translated Caitanya*-caritāmṛta in Hindi, they say. Prabhupāda: He presented me one. Jayapatākā: Many people ask that if that Gītār Gān could be put in Hindi. Gargamuni: See, this Gita Press, they have these little books selling for one rupee, and they've sold lakhs . If we can put Gītār Gān into many languages, it will be bigger than this Gita Press. Prabhupāda: So you can . . . it is poetry. Jayapatākā: That's the difference, that Prabhupāda put it in poetry. Who has got that inspiration? Prabhupāda: It is gān, gītā , song. One can chant it singing. Jayapatākā: Some people say: "We want the *Gītā* . This is only gān ." But then we have to say: "No, this has got the full *Gītā* . Everything is there. Every śloka is in here. Only put in gān form. But it is actual *Gītā* ." Other people, they say, "I have so many Gītās ." We say: "No, no, you can chant this with your harmonium, or by khol and karatāla you can sing." So many ways the people are taking it. Prabhupāda: Yes, they can sing very nicely. Jayapatākā: When we can hear over the loudspeakers Gītār Gān being sung, then we will feel very happy. When the public will start singing publicly Gītār Gān . . . Prabhupāda: Public singing? Jayapatākā: When the public begin to recite Gītār Gān at their functions, like they're doing this Tulasīdāsa *Rāmāyaṇa* , if they start that in Bengal, Gītār Gān , then it will be a big success. Prabhupāda: Tulasīdāsa. Tulasīdāsa *Rāmāyaṇa* is very popular. Because the Hindis, they have no literature. There is no literature. Jayapatākā: If some Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava could rewrite that according to siddhānta , then it would be very good. Prabhupāda: Which one? Jayapatākā: His *Rāmāyaṇa* has got many philosophical errors in it. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jayapatākā: If a Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava could write that properly . . . *Prabhupāda: Why? Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava has immense literature. Why they should bother with Tulasīdāsa? By reading Tulasīdāsa's Rāma*-carita-mānasa, in my experience I've not seen a single man has come to the spiritual platform. I have not seen a single man. Gargamuni: Yes. That is not transcendental literature. Because by reading these books you come to transcendental realization. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is wanted. They want āśīrvāda . Just like so many people come, āśīrvāda . "You are a saintly person, you give me āśīrvāda so my material happiness may increase. I am not interested with the spiritual knowledge. Give me blessing so that for nothing I get . . . upgrade my material opulence." This is their . . . so those Tulasīdāsa readers, they are like that. They want material opulence. Ārto*-arthārthī. Arthārthī , want some material benefit. They chant Tulasīdāsa's Rāma-carita-mānasa for some material benefit. They're not interested in the spiritual advancement. Nobody. That . . . in Delhi temple where they have paṇḍita ? I'm forgetting his name. Jayapatākā: One paṇḍita in Delhi? That one āśrama is there. The one whom you stayed with that time? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇadāsa? Jayapatākā: I just met him once. Tejiyas brought him. He's got some āśrama . Some Ācārya or something. Ācārya something. Prabhupāda: Oh, that Prabhākāra. Jayapatākā: Ācārya Prabhākāra? *Prabhupāda: No. Prabhākāra is different. Prabhākāra was first*-initiated. Jayapatākā: Your first disciple. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari*-nāma-mantra he was given. Gargamuni: What year was that? *Prabhupāda: Nineteen fifty*-four, I think. He did some service. In Jhansi . . . Gargamuni: You had that League. I saw photos of that. That League of Devotees. Prabhupāda: Hmm. A very nice building. Gargamuni: Yeah. That was nice. Prabhupāda: Very nice building. Gargamuni: With front wall, and you had painted "League of Devotees." Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen. Gargamuni: I have seen the photo. Big place. Jayapatākā: That is still existing? Prabhupāda: Very big place. That you have seen this Keśavajī Gauḍīya Maṭha in Mathurā? No. There is Caitanya Mahāprabhu Deity. That Deity was there. When I closed that, I brought, that big, big sannyāsī , and delivered Them. They will show. Jayapatākā: One man cheated you there? Some land? No. Prabhupāda: The building belonged to a big zamindar . So Prabhākāra arranged. So it was to be given to me, and I wanted to start the League of Devotees from there. Gargamuni: Yes, big institution. Prabhupāda: So I spent some money, whatever money I had, and it was going on. But in the meantime, this Lilavati Munshi.. Gargamuni: Oh, that Mr. Munshi. Prabhupāda: Mrs. At that time she was wife of the governor. Her husband, K. M. Munshi. She had some organization of foreign women. So somehow or other she got imagination that, "This house is very nice." She was governor's wife. So it was not given to me rightly, but I was using. So she wanted that house. So through collector and through all government officials' pressure. She wrote me later on that, "Bhaktivedantajī, you wanted to organize, but you could not. But I have got this institution. Why not give it to me?" So, of course, there were many lawyer friends. They advised me that, "You do not give up. You should litigate." So I thought, "Who is going to litigate? Let me go to Vṛndāvana." So I left. So at Mathurā I delivered the Deity to this Keśavajī Gauḍīya Maṭha, and I made my place in Vṛndāvana. Gargamuni: You had such a hard struggle in the beginning. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: Because that place, I saw in the photo, everything was there. Nice big sign. Prabhupāda: It was a very good place. This Prabhākāra helped me. Ninety percent was . . . but if I did not leave, nobody could drive me, that was a fact. But I thought, "Who is going to . . . for litigation? She is the governor's wife, and she is pressing through collectors, through . . ." The manager who was in charge, he had some cinema house. So they had to renew the license, cinema house. And the collector pressed him that, "Unless you arrange for this house, we are not going to renew your license." So I thought, "Unnecessarily this man will be in trouble. I'll have to pay so many rupees, and she is governor's wife." And that lady came to me in Bombay several times: "You take my press. You have got so many publications." So I said: "I can take your press. I have got money. But what shall I do with it? It is letterpress. Now printing is done by offset." That press, Associated Press, it is very good press. It was . . . they got so many government contracts. The whole telephone guides were printed there. But because it is letterset press, it is costly. The government got offset press, cheaper price. So that contract was cancelled. So for her nefarious activity she is punished. Her husband died. She has no more importance, and she was one of the trustees of Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. So she was exempted. Now she's an ordinary woman. Press is not working. Gargamuni: All they have is that Bhavan's Journal . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Nobody reads that. Jayapatākā: You say she was kicked out from the trusteeship. She's not part of that any more. Prabhupāda: Yes. The other trustees said that "You are simply spending. What you are doing?" After all, when she was wife of the governor she had some prestige. Otherwise . . . she invited me in that Juhu. She has got a house in Juhu. So I told her, "Yes, I can purchase your press. Fifty lakhs is not very big amount for me, but what shall I do? We are printing offset." That is the cause . . . because nowadays printing is done by offset press, she lost all business. People got big, big contract, they got cheaper and better quality. Why they should stick to that press? And government contract was taken from them, big, huge business they lost. Tata Press, they have got offset. Government transferred there. And that was her main support. It was a nice, good press. Practically best press in Bombay, Associated Press. But because it is letter press . . . now to maintain the letter press is very costly. Jayapatākā: Yes. You have to get new type every year, and that is very costly. Prabhupāda: Nowadays there is no need of letters, I mean to say . . . Jayapatākā: Type. Prabhupāda: Type. Gargamuni: No. They have special . . . (break) . . . on all the equipment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: That is not so much for the amount of books that they have been able to produce in such a short time. Prabhupāda: We can produce one book daily, the machines are so expert. Jayapatākā: They do outside work as well? Gargamuni: What for? We have unlimited . . . Prabhupāda: Why? Botheration. You have to satisfy your customer, waste time. We keep our machine for our own work. Gargamuni: We have so many books. As soon as we print a new book, the previous book is out of print; we have to print again. Prabhupāda: The first machine introduced by you, yes. Gargamuni: Oh, the mimeograph. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Then other machines came. I did not know, but I was thinking that if some typist would hear my tapes and type, I was thinking like that. Expert typist. Formerly, it was being done like that. Hear, tape recorder. You hear something and then type. Like that. And this machine, you shall, it is, automatically, you hear and type, hear and type. Jayapatākā: This is made for that. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the advancement on that idea, Dictaphone. Telephone. And the dictation of the author, he's hearing and typing. Nowadays everyone is using. The doctors even dictate prescription. The doctor, instead of sending note, he dictates for such and such patient, "He should receive this, take like that." That is recorded. Another, another, and immediately taken, and the compounder hears and . . . no writing. Jayapatākā: Actually you are dictating the prescription for the whole world. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra*-mano-'bhirāmāt ( SB 10.1.4) And prescription is so sweet it pleases the ear and the heart. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt . It is medicine for this material disease. At the same time, it is so pleasing to the ear and the heart. This is the very word. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra . Śrotra means aural. Śrotra-manaḥ , and mind. Mano 'bhirāmāt. Abhirāma , pleasing. Jayapatākā: After rainy season you'll be coming to Māyāpur, then? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: We'll write when the weather improves. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jayapatākā: We'll write when the rains cease. (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Jayapatākā: I was with him when he posted the letter. Prabhupāda: But where is that? Jayapatākā: I'll ask him when I see him. Prabhupāda: You have got any copy? No. Jayapatākā: I didn't keep a copy. Prabhupāda: When they submit? Quarterly? Jayapatākā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Part of the money is contribution for construction of my house. Ten thousand. Ten thousand dollars? Jayapatākā: Ten thousand dollars, I think. Jayatīrtha mentioned. Prabhupāda: I am writing one letter to the government that I work hard, I print my books and they are selling, and if I bring the money to construct temple, why people are envious? What is the wrong there? Rather, I should be encouraged that I am bringing so much money in India, foreign exchange, by my hard labor. So why they are envious? Why . . . I have sent this to the governor. Jayapatākā: To the governor? Prabhupāda: Governor, Mr. Chandra Reddy. "Why? Wherefrom they are getting money? Where? why?" That is my money by hard labor, that's all. Is it wrong if a man works hard and gets money in foreign country and bring in India? Gargamuni: I think they cannot believe that a sādhu could have so much money from selling books. *Prabhupāda: That may be beyond their dream, but I am not so*-called sādhu . I am trying to execute the orders of my Guru Mahārāja, predecessor. I am not a so-called sādhu , taking a saffron robe, begging for fulfilling the belly. Gargamuni: They have to accept you as an international leader. Prabhupāda: I must be international leader. Yes, they are surprised how . . . this is unique in the history, that a single person's books are sold in so many large quantities. I don't think any author has sold so many books. Huh? *Gargamuni: In some of the American magazines they publish a best*-seller list of books, and the number of books we sell goes beyond the best-seller list. Prabhupāda: And especially philosophical and religious books. These people do not touch. (laughs) Untouchable. Has even Vivekananda has presented so many books? A small book, Thus spake . . . Gargamuni: "Thus spake." (laughs) Prabhupāda: And what he will write? What does he know? Simply bluffers. Chaliats . Our Bon Mahārāja is also one of the chaliats . What is the English for chaliat ? Jayapatākā: Bluffers? Prabhupāda: Chaliat means he has no assets but he shows that he is very big. That is called chaliat . Jayapatākā: Bluffer. Prabhupāda: Bluffer? Our Tīrtha Mahārāja's Caitanya Research Institute. Here is an Indian Institute for . . . what is that? Bon Mahārāja's? Institute for Indian Culture and Philosophy. But where is your book? You have seen that Tīrtha Mahārāja's one book? The Vedānta as Caitanya Has Seen , like that. And he has given a picture of himself with effulgence on his head. You have seen that? Gargamuni: No, I have not seen that one. In all the mandiras where his picture is there, they have all the ācāryas pictures, but only his picture has the effulgence. Prabhupāda: Such a rascal. He has given Prabhupāda's picture, no effulgence; his picture, effulgence. He's such a rascal. Publicly he's showing. Jayapatākā: But unfortunately that had to be painted in. He could not just show . . . Gargamuni: There's no natural . . . Prabhupāda: Could not illuminate. Remain in darkness. Effulgence in darkness. And such a shameless man, he is giving effulgence in the picture. (break) Gargamuni: . . . gradually we can see that this Society is replacing the Ramakrishna Mission there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gargamuni: We can see practically that this Society, your Society, is replacing this Ramakrishna Mission more and more. Prabhupāda: Why Ramakrishna Mission? We are far above the Ramakrishna Mission. Gargamuni: Yes. As far as the people go. They are all saying "Hare Kṛṣṇa" and . . . they don't even mention . . . sometimes they ask us, "Do you know who Ramakrishna is?" And we say, "No, we have never heard of him." They go, "You have not heard of Ramakrishna?" We say: "No. We only know Prabhupāda and Lord Caitanya. Everybody knows that, and nobody knows who is Ramakrishna." Jayapatākā: They do not know what to say. *Gargamuni: Then they don't know what to say. They say: "You mean you don't know that Chicago Address?" We say: "No. What? Oh, when Prabhupāda went for Ratha*-yātrā? Yes, that we know." Prabhupāda: That Chicago Address was the worst. He is defying, "Why you give credit to God?" This is the . . . we have seen that Chicago Address. Now they are eliminating. Most blasphemous. One Christian priest, he was surprised, "What kind of nonsense these Indians are . . ." He asked him, "How you are speaking in this way, 'Why you are giving credit to God?' " He said like that. "You are working, why you are giving credit to God?" This is Vivekananda's realization. And he created God. A illiterate priest, he become God. Because he said, "I am God." That is the proof. Jayapatākā: Because he said . . .? *Prabhupāda: "I am God. I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." Therefore his name is Ramakrishna. He was Gadadhar Chatterji, and he said to his disciple, Vivekananda, first*-class rogue that, "I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." So he took it. This is evidence. Because Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the Supreme." So he said: "I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." This is the evidence. What Kṛṣṇa can say, he can say also. This institution is the most harmful institution for Vedic culture. *Jayapatākā: At one town, Beturhari, that . . . it is called Nakashiparathana. That's about thirty miles north of Māyāpur. One day in advance they advertised that we were coming and we were having a public showing of the cinema and Nitāi*-Gaura ārati . And they had one maidan called Library Maidan. There was one, like, stage there. Prabhupāda: It is in West Bengal? Jayapatākā: West Bengal. That's in Nadia District. Just before Phulasi, south of Phulasi. And when we came there and I saw the police in the afternoon, we told them we were going to have a function. So they said that they would send a few policemen. They said that, "We will send some policemen for keeping the order." But that night so many people came . . . the space could only hold four thousand, but another two, three thousand people came, and they were turned away because of insufficient space. So they were standing on the wall and on the rooftops all around, and all you could see were people's heads, just like an ocean. The policemen, after it was over . . . when I chanted, I chanted, "Everyone please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And I chanted the full mantra three times. They chanted so loud that even two, three blocks away people thought that the heavens were shouting. It was like a thunder . . . Prabhupāda: Thunderbolt. Jayapatākā: Thunderbolt. And the policemen said that never—even the chief minister came here once—not even half so many people came, and that was announced for one week. This was announced for one day, and more people came than ever before. He said: "This really shows me that the people are hungry for spiritual answer. They have no one to lead them." Gargamuni: And these leaders are simply envious, that's all. The only reason why they're not helping us is because they're envious. Because so many people are interested and no one is interested in them. Prabhupāda: Anyway, our Gītār Gān is selling. *Jayapatākā: Yes. When we stopped at Burdwan, in one place, one boy sold 198 Bhagavad*-gītās , Gītār Gān , without moving. So many Gītās . . . people were just crowding around taking Gītās so much that the local . . . there were some bookstores. They also came, and they said that "We cannot get wholesale? We have never seen such a book sell so well." Gargamuni: Even people come to the temple in Calcutta, they want ten, fifteen copies. Village people. Poor people. They come and say: " Gītār Gān , where is that? I have heard." And they take ten or fifteen copies, they wrap it in their cloth and bring it to the village. It is becoming very popular. Wherever you go, "Where is this Gītār Gān ?" Jayapatākā: I went to Writers' Building, I had four or five copies with me. I didn't go for selling, I went to see ministers. But all the peons, they were buying the Gītār Gāns from me. I sold out. People were coming up with rupees saying: " Gītār Gān ." I didn't have any more. Prabhupāda: Out of their own accord they . . . Gargamuni: No, they've heard of it. It's becoming famous. Jayapatākā: That's our inspiration, that if we can make Gītār Gān and Your Divine Grace famous all over Bengal, then we will feel that our mission . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, I could not write any . . . I wrote some Bengali book, that is now . . . it can be collected from Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha. I continually wrote one book, Bhagavāner Kathā. Jayapatākā: People are begging us for books in Bengali written by Your Divine Grace. We tell them that . . . (aside) There's no time. Prabhupāda: That Subhaga translated. But his translations are not so . . . Gargamuni: No. There's always trouble with translation in local languages, Hindi or Gujarati. Prabhupāda: They do not know the philosophy. Gargamuni: No. And they do the wrong words. *Jayapatākā: Now they have a . . . I put a two*-man team. A two- or three-man team. Subhaga, there's one boy Kiśora, and, what's his name, Tatpur. Between the three of them they check and recheck. Prabhupāda: Tatpur is educated? Jayapatākā: He's got a B.A. or something. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gargamuni: Tatpur has a B.A.? *Jayapatākā: Yes. He doesn't write himself. He writes in old fashion. But he corrects for just double*-checking philosophy. Editing. And this Kiśora, he was a M.A., and he previously used to write. He was an honor student at Calcutta University, and he used to freelance write in Bengali. So his style is very nice. Prabhupāda: Why not engage him in simply . . . Jayapatākā: He is translating now our . . . Gargamuni: That's all he does. Jayapatākā: That, and he greets the guests. He's also good at membership. Prabhupāda: Gītār Gān has become popular. Gargamuni: Yes. That name has become very popular. Everyone is asking: "Where is this Gītār Gān ?" Prabhupāda: So you can register the name so that others may not . . . Jayapatākā: Yes, otherwise they'll cash in on it. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can register it the name. Patron registration. Copyright registration. Gargamuni: I think it says it in the book. Jayapatākā: It says, but you should make sure it's registered. Gargamuni: Gopāla, he printed it. I don't know if he had it registered. It says in the book, "All Rights Reserved." Prabhupāda: That is your statement. But it must be legally protected. Jayapatākā: They may check up and find out not so and then do it. That Bhagavāner Kathā was printed in what book? Do you know? Prabhupāda: They have got a paper— Gauḍīya . *Gargamuni: These books that Gaura*-Govinda, he wants to get printed. How do we know what is being said? I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the . . . one Oria gentleman will come, and get him to read this book. Then I can understand where he stands. Gargamuni: Because he has . . . the Topmost yoga is ready, but I didn't want to print that yet until . . . Prabhupāda: Never mind. I'll . . . after hearing this book I'll let him know. Jayapatākā: After they write everything, then I also read it in Bengali. I can . . . and if I see something that seems a little impersonal or something, I say that . . . Prabhupāda: Correct it. Jayapatākā: Yes, correct it. That much I can do. Prabhupāda: Impersonal idea is in everyone's head. "God has no legs, no head. Simply he has got head." Jayapatākā: I think I can also write to the . . . previously in 1971–72 at the paṇḍāls you used to speak in Bengali some days. I'll write for those tapes. We can . . . Gargamuni: Oh, those tapes. I asked for those tapes so long ago. If we can get those Hindi and Bengali tapes we could have them transcribed, and they can make very good essays. Jayapatākā: All the big English Back to Godhead articles are actually your lectures simply transcribed. So we could transcribe those tapes, and we could have originally your words. Gargamuni: Yes. There were ten days when Prabhupāda spoke in Bengali. Jayapatākā: Twice. Once in Deshapriya Park and once at Maidan. Even today people talk about both festivals. Prabhupāda: Bhagavāner Kathā. Jayapatākā: Bhagavāner Kathā. Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha. Paper of Gauḍīya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gauḍīya , it was published continuously. Jayapatākā: What years we should look? More or less. Prabhupāda: 1950 or little before that. They have got their old Gauḍīyas . Jayapatākā: They must have. Prabhupāda: They were so popular, the report was that the readers of Gauḍīya were only hankering after that Bhagavāner Kathā, and after reading that they will throw away. Other articles, they were not interested. Jayapatākā: So always your writing, people were attracted by. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. Even my teachers were attracted in school days. Jayapatākā: Recently that . . . some professor said that you are the veritable incarnation of Vyāsadeva for Lord Caitanya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Some have said like that. In my matriculation class I wrote some essay, and I got out of 100, 85 marks. But the teacher came to the class, "Who has written this?" So I stood up, and he thanked me, "Yes, it is very nice." He especially came to thank me for that essay. Gargamuni: At least from the human standpoint, it is not humanly possible to have so many books in such a short time. There is no other author, at least that we know. Jayapatākā: I showed your "As Brilliant as the Sun" to Tarun Kanti Gosh and one other minister, and when they saw that, then after, for ten minutes, all they could say was how Prabhupāda, how he is empowered by Lord Gaurāṅga. Prabhupāda: They said like that. Jayapatākā: Yes. That's a good movie, because it simply shows how you are doing so many books. Gargamuni: We also showed that to that Atul Krishna Goswami. He came to Māyāpur. When he saw that, he was so . . . that movie, they had never seen such a thing, the process of printing the books. Prabhupāda: He has good idea about . . . Gargamuni: Oh, yes. *Jayapatākā: He has translated Caitanya*-caritāmṛta in Hindi, they say. Prabhupāda: He presented me one. Jayapatākā: Many people ask that if that Gītār Gān could be put in Hindi. Gargamuni: See, this Gita Press, they have these little books selling for one rupee, and they've sold lakhs . If we can put Gītār Gān into many languages, it will be bigger than this Gita Press. Prabhupāda: So you can . . . it is poetry. Jayapatākā: That's the difference, that Prabhupāda put it in poetry. Who has got that inspiration? Prabhupāda: It is gān, gītā , song. One can chant it singing. Jayapatākā: Some people say: "We want the *Gītā* . This is only gān ." But then we have to say: "No, this has got the full *Gītā* . Everything is there. Every śloka is in here. Only put in gān form. But it is actual *Gītā* ." Other people, they say, "I have so many Gītās ." We say: "No, no, you can chant this with your harmonium, or by khol and karatāla you can sing." So many ways the people are taking it. Prabhupāda: Yes, they can sing very nicely. Jayapatākā: When we can hear over the loudspeakers Gītār Gān being sung, then we will feel very happy. When the public will start singing publicly Gītār Gān . . . Prabhupāda: Public singing? Jayapatākā: When the public begin to recite Gītār Gān at their functions, like they're doing this Tulasīdāsa *Rāmāyaṇa* , if they start that in Bengal, Gītār Gān , then it will be a big success. Prabhupāda: Tulasīdāsa. Tulasīdāsa *Rāmāyaṇa* is very popular. Because the Hindis, they have no literature. There is no literature. Jayapatākā: If some Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava could rewrite that according to siddhānta , then it would be very good. Prabhupāda: Which one? Jayapatākā: His *Rāmāyaṇa* has got many philosophical errors in it. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jayapatākā: If a Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava could write that properly . . . *Prabhupāda: Why? Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava has immense literature. Why they should bother with Tulasīdāsa? By reading Tulasīdāsa's Rāma*-carita-mānasa, in my experience I've not seen a single man has come to the spiritual platform. I have not seen a single man. Gargamuni: Yes. That is not transcendental literature. Because by reading these books you come to transcendental realization. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is wanted. They want āśīrvāda . Just like so many people come, āśīrvāda . "You are a saintly person, you give me āśīrvāda so my material happiness may increase. I am not interested with the spiritual knowledge. Give me blessing so that for nothing I get . . . upgrade my material opulence." This is their . . . so those Tulasīdāsa readers, they are like that. They want material opulence. Ārto*-arthārthī. Arthārthī , want some material benefit. They chant Tulasīdāsa's Rāma-carita-mānasa for some material benefit. They're not interested in the spiritual advancement. Nobody. That . . . in Delhi temple where they have paṇḍita ? I'm forgetting his name. Jayapatākā: One paṇḍita in Delhi? That one āśrama is there. The one whom you stayed with that time? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇadāsa? Jayapatākā: I just met him once. Tejiyas brought him. He's got some āśrama . Some Ācārya or something. Ācārya something. Prabhupāda: Oh, that Prabhākāra. Jayapatākā: Ācārya Prabhākāra? *Prabhupāda: No. Prabhākāra is different. Prabhākāra was first*-initiated. Jayapatākā: Your first disciple. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari*-nāma-mantra he was given. Gargamuni: What year was that? *Prabhupāda: Nineteen fifty*-four, I think. He did some service. In Jhansi . . . Gargamuni: You had that League. I saw photos of that. That League of Devotees. Prabhupāda: Hmm. A very nice building. Gargamuni: Yeah. That was nice. Prabhupāda: Very nice building. Gargamuni: With front wall, and you had painted "League of Devotees." Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen. Gargamuni: I have seen the photo. Big place. Jayapatākā: That is still existing? Prabhupāda: Very big place. That you have seen this Keśavajī Gauḍīya Maṭha in Mathurā? No. There is Caitanya Mahāprabhu Deity. That Deity was there. When I closed that, I brought, that big, big sannyāsī , and delivered Them. They will show. Jayapatākā: One man cheated you there? Some land? No. Prabhupāda: The building belonged to a big zamindar . So Prabhākāra arranged. So it was to be given to me, and I wanted to start the League of Devotees from there. Gargamuni: Yes, big institution. Prabhupāda: So I spent some money, whatever money I had, and it was going on. But in the meantime, this Lilavati Munshi.. Gargamuni: Oh, that Mr. Munshi. Prabhupāda: Mrs. At that time she was wife of the governor. Her husband, K. M. Munshi. She had some organization of foreign women. So somehow or other she got imagination that, "This house is very nice." She was governor's wife. So it was not given to me rightly, but I was using. So she wanted that house. So through collector and through all government officials' pressure. She wrote me later on that, "Bhaktivedantajī, you wanted to organize, but you could not. But I have got this institution. Why not give it to me?" So, of course, there were many lawyer friends. They advised me that, "You do not give up. You should litigate." So I thought, "Who is going to litigate? Let me go to Vṛndāvana." So I left. So at Mathurā I delivered the Deity to this Keśavajī Gauḍīya Maṭha, and I made my place in Vṛndāvana. Gargamuni: You had such a hard struggle in the beginning. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: Because that place, I saw in the photo, everything was there. Nice big sign. Prabhupāda: It was a very good place. This Prabhākāra helped me. Ninety percent was . . . but if I did not leave, nobody could drive me, that was a fact. But I thought, "Who is going to . . . for litigation? She is the governor's wife, and she is pressing through collectors, through . . ." The manager who was in charge, he had some cinema house. So they had to renew the license, cinema house. And the collector pressed him that, "Unless you arrange for this house, we are not going to renew your license." So I thought, "Unnecessarily this man will be in trouble. I'll have to pay so many rupees, and she is governor's wife." And that lady came to me in Bombay several times: "You take my press. You have got so many publications." So I said: "I can take your press. I have got money. But what shall I do with it? It is letterpress. Now printing is done by offset." That press, Associated Press, it is very good press. It was . . . they got so many government contracts. The whole telephone guides were printed there. But because it is letterset press, it is costly. The government got offset press, cheaper price. So that contract was cancelled. So for her nefarious activity she is punished. Her husband died. She has no more importance, and she was one of the trustees of Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. So she was exempted. Now she's an ordinary woman. Press is not working. Gargamuni: All they have is that Bhavan's Journal . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Nobody reads that. Jayapatākā: You say she was kicked out from the trusteeship. She's not part of that any more. Prabhupāda: Yes. The other trustees said that "You are simply spending. What you are doing?" After all, when she was wife of the governor she had some prestige. Otherwise . . . she invited me in that Juhu. She has got a house in Juhu. So I told her, "Yes, I can purchase your press. Fifty lakhs is not very big amount for me, but what shall I do? We are printing offset." That is the cause . . . because nowadays printing is done by offset press, she lost all business. People got big, big contract, they got cheaper and better quality. Why they should stick to that press? And government contract was taken from them, big, huge business they lost. Tata Press, they have got offset. Government transferred there. And that was her main support. It was a nice, good press. Practically best press in Bombay, Associated Press. But because it is letter press . . . now to maintain the letter press is very costly. Jayapatākā: Yes. You have to get new type every year, and that is very costly. Prabhupāda: Nowadays there is no need of letters, I mean to say . . . Jayapatākā: Type. Prabhupāda: Type. Gargamuni: No. They have special . . . (break) . . . on all the equipment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: That is not so much for the amount of books that they have been able to produce in such a short time. Prabhupāda: We can produce one book daily, the machines are so expert. Jayapatākā: They do outside work as well? Gargamuni: What for? We have unlimited . . . Prabhupāda: Why? Botheration. You have to satisfy your customer, waste time. We keep our machine for our own work. Gargamuni: We have so many books. As soon as we print a new book, the previous book is out of print; we have to print again. Prabhupāda: The first machine introduced by you, yes. Gargamuni: Oh, the mimeograph. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Then other machines came. I did not know, but I was thinking that if some typist would hear my tapes and type, I was thinking like that. Expert typist. Formerly, it was being done like that. Hear, tape recorder. You hear something and then type. Like that. And this machine, you shall, it is, automatically, you hear and type, hear and type. Jayapatākā: This is made for that. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the advancement on that idea, Dictaphone. Telephone. And the dictation of the author, he's hearing and typing. Nowadays everyone is using. The doctors even dictate prescription. The doctor, instead of sending note, he dictates for such and such patient, "He should receive this, take like that." That is recorded. Another, another, and immediately taken, and the compounder hears and . . . no writing. Jayapatākā: Actually you are dictating the prescription for the whole world. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra*-mano-'bhirāmāt ( SB 10.1.4) And prescription is so sweet it pleases the ear and the heart. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt . It is medicine for this material disease. At the same time, it is so pleasing to the ear and the heart. This is the very word. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra . Śrotra means aural. Śrotra-manaḥ , and mind. Mano 'bhirāmāt. Abhirāma , pleasing. Jayapatākā: After rainy season you'll be coming to Māyāpur, then? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: We'll write when the weather improves. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jayapatākā: We'll write when the rains cease. (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (Conversation with Endowments Commissioner of Andhra Pradesh) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . every day to get permission. Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda . *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He is coming at one o'clock, so we'll give the whole mahā*-prasāda . Prabhupāda: Aiye Aiye , but . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. So at four o'clock you are coming there? No. At Mr. Raja's house? Commissioner: Endowments Minister. Prabhupāda: They are holding some meeting? Today we have got very good article in the Sunday Chronicle . Devotee: Have you read this? Commissioner: I have a copy. Prabhupāda: Everyone is reporting about us very nice, and still there are some envious persons, they are creating doubts about us. Commissioner: They cannot create any doubts, Swāmījī, as long as you are establishing the equality of man in the eyes of God, only one God. That is being done, I think, in midst of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, we have no discrimination. Commissioner: Ācchā . No discrimination. And that is the . . . I don't think anybody called . . . Prabhupāda: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Unless one is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , he cannot reach the platform of devotional . . . Commissioner: And how can there be anything greater service to humanity than . . . *Prabhupāda: Here is the first thing, that brahma*-bhūtaḥ , Brahman realization. Then prasannātmā : he is no more under the material tribulation or anxiety. We are in anxiety on account of our material conception of life. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because we have accepted this asat body, material body, which will not exist, and we are concentrating our attention only on this body, therefore we are always anxious. Asad-grahāt. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt . On account of asat . So this is going on all over the world. Simply anxiety. They have created United Nation, but where is the United Nation? The people go there with anxiety, that's all, and come back again with anxiety, because their asad-grahāt remains. The Indian is thinking, "I am Indian, this body," and the American is thinking, "I am American," and the Pakistani is thinking, "I am Pakistani." So asad-graha is there. So how the anxiety will go away? But they do not know this. There is no education. They want to keep him . . . "Feel always that you are Indian," "Feel always that you are American." "You feel always you are Hindu," "Feel always you are Muslim." Asad-graha . How there can be no anxiety? Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt . *So asato mā sad gamaya. This is Vedic injunction. Don't remain on the asat platform. Come to the sat platform. Asato mā sad gamaya. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya . Don't remain ignorant. But unfortunately, people are so absorbed in asat things they do not know what is sat . They cannot go to the sat platform. They cannot go to the light platform. And they are struggling like that. No solution. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). The government may change, but the men are the same—in darkness. What improvement will there be simply by changing government? The persons who are governing, they are in the darkness. So how, by change of government, there will be change of situation? I said in . . . where? That the United Nation is an assembly of dogs barking. Devotee: You've said this . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Where did I say it? It was published in the paper. I said that if you keep them as dogs, and if you ask some dogs, "My dear dogs, please do not bark. Live peacefully," is it possible? The dog will bark. That is their business. So we are not enlightening them what is actually we are. We are keeping on this bodily conception. That is the dog's conception. And how there will be peace? There cannot be. Simply by agreement, by treaty, there can be any peaceful? No. Just like children. They agree, "Yes, we shall not fight." Next moment they'll fight. And again they will make agreement. This is going on. Commissioner: What could we do, the devotees down here in Andhra Pradesh state? *Prabhupāda: You become guided by Bhagavad*-gītā . Commissioner: (indistinct Hindi) . . . if you think that everything could run . . . (indistinct) . . . then ahobalam is there. Ahobalam is there. That is also . . . (indistinct) . . . here now . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you are going. Tomorrow they have to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You have counted? Not yet. Counting? No. Hari-śauri: I've got it listed. 182. 1-8-2. Prabhupāda: All their temples should be reorganized on the . . . people should come there for being educated. Temple means it is an educational center. Commissioner: Educational center. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Brāhmaṇas means they are teachers. Paṭhana*-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ . So every temple should be educational center, and the brāhmaṇas should be engaged. They should be properly educated and they should teach others also. In this way, temple means education in spiritual life. And actually spiritual life is life. This material life, the bodily conception of life, is dead life. Aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam (CC Madhya 19.75). This nice shirt you have changed because there is life. When there is no life, who is going to change dress? The body is there, but why you are not interested in changing the dress? Better interest . . . the sooner the body is thrown away or burned up, better. So similarly . . . (break) There is a proverb that a vulture goes very high, but his ambition is where is a dead body. As soon as he finds a dead body, (growling sound) immediately. And we see, "Oh, how high he has gone." So what is the going up so high if your aim is to find out a dead body? And actually, these aeronautics, they went to very high, suppose they went to moon. But after going there they find, "Where is Moscow? Where is this?" The same vulture business. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to give relief to the human society. So everyone should cooperate with this movement. Unfortunately, there are so many envious persons, they are writing against us, talking against us. They should be envious. Because they want to exploit, keeping the people in ignorance. So our preaching is very difficult task, still we're trying our best. Commissioner: That's what I find, Swāmījī. My work is also very difficult. Work is very difficult. We have about 30,000 temples in this state, properties that have temples, the . . . (indistinct) . . . of temples, interest in the temples . . . Prabhupāda: No, it can be . . . if government takes our advice, we can give them advice how to organize, how to utilize. Commissioner: Definitely. We want a scheme. Definitely. Fortunately, it is the land of this Kṛṣṇā and Godāvarī. It is a sacred land. Tuṅgabhadrā, Kṛṣṇā, Godāvarī. We are finding where everywhere there has been some kind of ups and downs. It has been studied. Prabhupāda: It is the government's duty to settle up. But they must know how to settle up. If they do not know, then they cannot do anything. Commissioner: No, we want guidance. Of course. Prabhupāda: That guidance we can give you. That guidance we can give. Because we have taken the brāhmaṇa's position. The brāhmaṇa's duty is to give guidance to the kṣatriya . Government means kṣatriya . So if the kṣatriyas take guidance from the brāhmaṇa and they try to execute, then everything will be all right. So we can give you sufficient guidance, provided you accept it. (laughter) Commissioner: The end is common. And we have found yesterday some of your śiṣyas had come. They're so happy. They said: "This is what the requirement is," and we accept him as a śiṣya . Prabhupāda: Temple means a center, educational center, education. (aside) Give them prasāda . Bring. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Commissioner: And we have centers through Tirupati. All over the country in our important centers, we have got some centers. Prabhupāda: Now the thing is that, say, for Tirupati, it has got biggest income. But I understand that this income is being engaged for industrial purpose. But that, how to utilize in industrial purpose, that you do not know. *Commissioner: But just one thing, let me explain Swāmījī. We are not directly giving to industry. What we are doing is we are depositing in a fixed deposit in certain banks, getting the highest interest. That interest we are utilizing for Sanskrit studies, Vedic studies, etcetera. We are not directly giving. What we are doing is this: we invest in your bank, but bank shall invest in a productive industrial purpose. We put a condition. We are not directly putting in the industry, and that's a wrong propaganda that's being done. What we are doing is the interest that comes, the funds that are there, they are safely there in a bank. The interest that comes, we utilize only for religious purposes, like, as I said, the dharma - pracāra, veda*-pracāra , all that we are doing. *Prabhupāda: So, I have taken this veda*-pracāra. Why not come and join with us? Commissioner: Yes, definitely. *Prabhupāda: All over the world they're accepting. Now these foreigners, they're accepting. I have done it single*-handed. So if the government comes forward and join with me, we can do at least ten times work. *Commissioner: How, kindly give us, sir, if you have . . . I don't know if I'm taking your very valuable time. We are very sincere about it. We are having Himalayan opposition for some of our schemes. But when I studied yesterday—because before I came to you I thought I shouldn't just come for wasting your valuable time—therefore I have found that your aims are what we have been thinking of for the Society. The veda*-pracāra , we were thinking that we have also started on a small scale, not on your scale. And if it is that we were thinking in these terms—translation of these Vedas . . . *Prabhupāda: First of all, first of all, you must know what is Veda . Vedas , vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Vedic knowledge means to understand Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself, to understand Him. That is Bhagavad*-gītā . So if you accept the principles of Bhagavad-gītā , the whole Vedas are accepted. Because purpose of Veda is to understand Kṛṣṇa. And that Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself—"I'm like this." So where is the difficulty to understand Vedas ? *Commissioner: May I explain to you what we have, we are doing, Swāmījī? In the villages we have now taken statistics of our veda*-paṇḍitas. There are three hundred of them. Now they have said they don't want to come out of their villages. We have said wherever they are, in their own village, for one or two hours, they meet, chant the Veda in the temple or the village. Prabhupāda: They'll not do that. Commissioner: They are now willing to. Prabhupāda: There may be some percentage. If you do not accept the recognized process . . . just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was a great scholar. So He was chanting and dancing. So some of the sannyāsīs , Māyāvādī sannyāsīs in Benares . . . (to devotee) You keep it there, they will take. There was a meeting, and the question was that "You are a sannyāsī . . ." This question was put to Caitanya Mahāprabhu that, "You have taken sannyāsa , You do not read Vedānta , and You are mixing with the sentimental persons, chanting and dancing. What is this?" This was the question. So He explained that, "Yes, My Guru Mahārāja found Me a great rascal." Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). You understand Bengali? No. "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a rascal number one. Therefore he has chastised Me." What is that? Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana . "He has said that 'You are rascal, You cannot read *Vedas* and Vedānta . You are rascal. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing that." . . . (indistinct Hindi) Commissioner: Chanting, yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: So He is Kṛṣṇa Himself. He's neither rascal nor fool. But He represented the rascal and fools that who will read Vedānta . Everyone is after this Veda . No student will come to study Vedānta . That is not possible in this age. You see? Maybe somebody interested, but generally they'll not come. Even if one is born in the brāhmaṇa family, he is no more interested. *Commissioner: May I submit, Swāmījī, therefore what we did was, these three hundred people, if they chant, three hundred rupees for a dāna*-paṭha , and two hundred rupees for him and a hundred rupees a . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no, brāhmaṇa , why he will take money? Commissioner: It is . . . no, we are giving it as dakṣiṇā . Prabhupāda: No, dakṣiṇā . But they are chanting in exchange of dakṣiṇā . Because you are giving dakṣiṇā , therefore they are chanting. And you stop that dakṣiṇā , nobody will come. Commissioner: True. You are correct. (laughs) That we have told them. If they teach their own children, hundred rupees for him for teaching, forty rupees for a child who learns. Prabhupāda: That they will do, but when the hundred rupees will not be sufficient, they'll give up. Commissioner: One thing is that at least one child is learning in each and every house . . . Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that is not the process. If you want to satisfy with money, and in exchange of money he wants to chant *Vedas* , that is not . . . Commissioner: No, Swāmījī, some of them didn't care either for the money. Prabhupāda: Some of them maybe. Commissioner: And they were starving. And they were starving. Prabhupāda: But generally, generally, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's process should be taken, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu represented Himself that, "I am fool." He is not fool. He's representing the fools of this age. So if we take that process, it will be successful. It will be successful. Commissioner: That also . . . (indistinct) . . . that bhajana and every. Prabhupāda: Yes, let them come. Commissioner: That is all. Prabhupāda: Let them come in the temple, and there may be sumptuously offering of bhoga . Let them chant and take prasādam . In this chanting, illiterate, literate, rascal, fool, lower, higher, everyone can join. And give them prasādam . See the effect. *Commissioner: Yes. That is also part of the . . . that is the other part of it. We are having dhana*-prasthānam, bhajana group, hari-kathā group . . . *Prabhupāda: But kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ . The Vedas are meant for the brāhmaṇas . So there is no brāhmaṇa practically. Neither there is training of brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa means he must speak truth. Satyā śama dama titik . . . and if you ask nowadays anybody that, "You don't speak lie, you speak truth," he will laugh that, "What a rascal this is. By speaking truth one can live nowadays?" he will say. The first business is satyam . And if you ask him, "You speak truth," he will laugh. So where is brāhmaṇa ? A brāhmaṇa is so simple that if you ask him about his secrecy, he'll tell you, "Yes, this is . . ." Satyam . Just like Jābāla Upaniṣad, he was asked, he went to Gautama Muni . . . Devotee: Satyaka. Prabhupāda: Satyaka, yes, for initiation. Gautama Muni asked him, "Who is your father?" He said: "I do not know." "Go to your mother." He went to the mother. Mother said: "Oh, my dear son, I do not know." Means he was a prostitute's son. So he came to Gautama Muni and said: "Sir, my mother does not know; I do not know." So he said: "You are a brāhmaṇa ." Devotee: This is our tradition. Prabhupāda: "Because you don't keep any secrecy you are brāhmaṇa . I'll initiate." So it is not the birth, but the quality—truthful. But these qualities will come when you make him a devotee. So this process should be taken, how to make him a devotee. And the easiest process of making devotee: let them come to the temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasādam . Then gradually they will become . . . I began this movement on this. Commissioner: Very good idea. Very simple idea. Prabhupāda: Very simple. And they have come. I never asked them to study *Vedas* in the beginning. What they'll read Veda ? What do they know? But this process has become successful. So if you take this process, it will be very quickly successful. And then literature. I never gave them literature. I have got about eighty books. Not that in the beginning I asked them, "Come here and read books." No. "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam ." Now they are interested in reading books, in publishing them, in selling them and everything. They are doing everything. So if you take the authorized program it will be successful. Otherwise, it will not be successful. Commissioner: Well . . . (indistinct) . . . and how long the Swāmījī will be here? I'll take up the program. We will. As a matter of fact, somehow . . . Prabhupāda: I am always at your service. *Commissioner: Somehow, the coincides, our program, we have taken a small scale. Every temple has been asked to have this bhajana, hari*-kathā , then this pūjā . . . Prabhupāda: There must be some competent man to induce. Everything will be planned. Commissioner: Therefore our training has to be started perhaps here. Some of those people who could go. Now these are all the ideas, of course. If you could give an impetus, that's exactly what I wanted to . . . take advice from you. Now if a center is established. What we lack very badly are those people who can competently take up this work in the whole state. The temples are there, the funds are there, organization is there. Men who are, as you say, the real brāhmaṇa , who could go and preach this, we are lacking. We are lacking. And he has to be trained. And the right training you are giving. Anywhere I see your men are . . . Prabhupāda: So we can give men. Commissioner: Yes. And a training institute has to be started. Very badly we need it. My department also, having any number of people. It is suffering because we don't have the proper people with that objective to govern . . . Prabhupāda: Because the culture is lost. Culture is lost. Commissioner: Because we take the local people as trust board members. Local people. We appoint officers. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said if you keep them dogs, what is the use of United Nation? You cannot make the dogs united. That is not possible. Commissioner: Yes. Therefore recently in Tirupati we have been thinking of starting a training institute along with Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. We asked . . . Prabhupāda: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have no idea. Commissioner: They have no idea. Ramakrishna Mission we asked. Prabhupāda: They have no idea. Commissioner: They don't have people. They said: "We don't have men even for our own missions." Prabhupāda: No. How long they can go on with false pretense? And these people, they have no idea what is spiritual life. It is a profession for collecting money. So if you . . . we do not like to criticize. Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, K. Munshi, he did not believe there is life after death or he did not believe there is Kṛṣṇa, fact. This is the founder. So what is their knowledge? And Vivekananda made Nārāyaṇa daridra . So this is their manufacturing ideas. They have no sound knowledge. Vacant. They are misled themselves, and they will mislead others. This is going on. But if you say that, "You are the only man?" I can say: "Yes, I am the only man at the present moment." You believe or not believe. And why? Because I am following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. That's all. I do not touch anything. That is our process. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we say, that's all. Therefore there is little success. I don't manufacture. I have no extraordinary power or I cannot show magic or jugglery of words. But I do sincerely to present what Kṛṣṇa has said. So if you do that, you'll be successful. If you do not do that, you'll never be successful. If you manufacture idea, you'll not . . . we must know that we are defective. Our manufacturing of idea all defective. We must take standard instructions from Kṛṣṇa. Then everything . . . so if you stick to this point, then we can guide you. And you'll be successful. Guidance is Kṛṣṇa. Our duty is to present Kṛṣṇa. Just like somebody has sent you money order, 1,000 rupees. I am a peon; I am not giving you the money. The money is sent by somebody. But I do not open it, adulterate it—that is my honesty. That is my honesty. So the instruction is Kṛṣṇa's. If I honestly deliver the same message to you, then you are benefited, I am benefited. And as soon as I pilfer it, then it is useless, I am useless, and you don't get profits, success. So if you decide to take Kṛṣṇa's instruction rightly, then we can give you very good guidance. Everywhere you'll be successful. Everything is there. Commissioner: Any plans to have training and . . . *Prabhupāda: Anything. It must be sanctioned by the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Then it will be successful. Commissioner: For success the people, the local language, so that they may be . . . Prabhupāda: Language difficulty is there. That we have to solve. Commissioner: Therefore training has to be done here and in other places, anyway, and a center has to be there. You could plan one of those with also . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, plan is there. Just like we are doing. And we can give you in detail. Provided you accept this principle that we shall abide by the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Commissioner: Who questions the *Gītā* and the *Upaniṣads* ? *Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. It is very difficult. You see. Big, big scholars, big, big politicians, they are supposed to be preaching Bhagavad*-gītā . They take their photograph in front of Bhagavad-gītā —but without Kṛṣṇa. They'll never talk of Kṛṣṇa any time. Banish Kṛṣṇa. Even Gandhi has said: "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different." Perhaps you have read in his Gita Press edition. Kṛṣṇa is speaking . . . Radhakrishnan said when Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, he says: "It is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad bhaktaḥ, and he says it is not to the Kṛṣṇa person. Just see how misleading it is. And if a person like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi, misleads, then who will hear me? What I am? There is one big person in Bombay, he said that he has set aside ten lakhs of rupees for Gītā-pracāra . But when I proposed Gītā-pracāra means kṛṣṇa-pracāra , so he said: "No, I want Gītā without Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) Everyone . . . *Commissioner: Then who is the Gītā*-pracāra? Gītā-pracāra. Prabhupāda: They are doing that. You can see from this big, big person. Gandhi used to say that he believes in *Gītā* and *Gītā* gives him solace in difficult times and so on, so on. But has he ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Tilok has ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Radhakrishnan has ever preached Kṛṣṇa? Nobody. Their policy is take Sītā and kill Rāma. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā. Take away *Gītā* and kill Kṛṣṇa. So Rāvaṇa's policy will never be successful. Rāvaṇa's policy means he will be destroyed. You cannot do any harm to Rāma, but he will be destroyed. This policy, that take Sītā and kill Rāma, means he will destroy himself. So this is going on. Take *Gītā* and kill Kṛṣṇa. This will destroy the whole thing, this Rāvaṇa's policy. And Hanumān's policy, somehow or other rescue Sītā and get her seated by the side of Rāma. Therefore he's worshiped, Vajrāṅgajī. That is the difference between Rāvaṇa's policy. Sītā is the via media. But one is trying to bring back Sītā and seat her by the side of Rāma, and another is trying to take away Sītā and kill Rāma. This wrong policy will not save us. We have to accept the instruction of *Gītā* and accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord. Then everything will be all right. (aside) Prasādam ? So thank you very much for your coming. Commissioner: Thank you. And to you, Swāmī. Prabhupāda: So, kindly if you will agree to take the instruction of *Gītā* , I am always at your service. I'll give you such guidance—our men, our everything. But you have to decide this. You cannot take up this policy, take *Gītā* and banish Kṛṣṇa. Commissioner: (laughter) Prabhupāda: That is not wanted. (end) (Conversation with Endowments Commissioner of Andhra Pradesh) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . every day to get permission. Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda . *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He is coming at one o'clock, so we'll give the whole mahā*-prasāda . Prabhupāda: Aiye Aiye , but . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. So at four o'clock you are coming there? No. At Mr. Raja's house? Commissioner: Endowments Minister. Prabhupāda: They are holding some meeting? Today we have got very good article in the Sunday Chronicle . Devotee: Have you read this? Commissioner: I have a copy. Prabhupāda: Everyone is reporting about us very nice, and still there are some envious persons, they are creating doubts about us. Commissioner: They cannot create any doubts, Swāmījī, as long as you are establishing the equality of man in the eyes of God, only one God. That is being done, I think, in midst of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, we have no discrimination. Commissioner: Ācchā . No discrimination. And that is the . . . I don't think anybody called . . . Prabhupāda: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Unless one is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , he cannot reach the platform of devotional . . . Commissioner: And how can there be anything greater service to humanity than . . . *Prabhupāda: Here is the first thing, that brahma*-bhūtaḥ , Brahman realization. Then prasannātmā : he is no more under the material tribulation or anxiety. We are in anxiety on account of our material conception of life. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because we have accepted this asat body, material body, which will not exist, and we are concentrating our attention only on this body, therefore we are always anxious. Asad-grahāt. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt . On account of asat . So this is going on all over the world. Simply anxiety. They have created United Nation, but where is the United Nation? The people go there with anxiety, that's all, and come back again with anxiety, because their asad-grahāt remains. The Indian is thinking, "I am Indian, this body," and the American is thinking, "I am American," and the Pakistani is thinking, "I am Pakistani." So asad-graha is there. So how the anxiety will go away? But they do not know this. There is no education. They want to keep him . . . "Feel always that you are Indian," "Feel always that you are American." "You feel always you are Hindu," "Feel always you are Muslim." Asad-graha . How there can be no anxiety? Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt . *So asato mā sad gamaya. This is Vedic injunction. Don't remain on the asat platform. Come to the sat platform. Asato mā sad gamaya. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya . Don't remain ignorant. But unfortunately, people are so absorbed in asat things they do not know what is sat . They cannot go to the sat platform. They cannot go to the light platform. And they are struggling like that. No solution. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). The government may change, but the men are the same—in darkness. What improvement will there be simply by changing government? The persons who are governing, they are in the darkness. So how, by change of government, there will be change of situation? I said in . . . where? That the United Nation is an assembly of dogs barking. Devotee: You've said this . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Where did I say it? It was published in the paper. I said that if you keep them as dogs, and if you ask some dogs, "My dear dogs, please do not bark. Live peacefully," is it possible? The dog will bark. That is their business. So we are not enlightening them what is actually we are. We are keeping on this bodily conception. That is the dog's conception. And how there will be peace? There cannot be. Simply by agreement, by treaty, there can be any peaceful? No. Just like children. They agree, "Yes, we shall not fight." Next moment they'll fight. And again they will make agreement. This is going on. Commissioner: What could we do, the devotees down here in Andhra Pradesh state? *Prabhupāda: You become guided by Bhagavad*-gītā . Commissioner: (indistinct Hindi) . . . if you think that everything could run . . . (indistinct) . . . then ahobalam is there. Ahobalam is there. That is also . . . (indistinct) . . . here now . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you are going. Tomorrow they have to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You have counted? Not yet. Counting? No. Hari-śauri: I've got it listed. 182. 1-8-2. Prabhupāda: All their temples should be reorganized on the . . . people should come there for being educated. Temple means it is an educational center. Commissioner: Educational center. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Brāhmaṇas means they are teachers. Paṭhana*-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ . So every temple should be educational center, and the brāhmaṇas should be engaged. They should be properly educated and they should teach others also. In this way, temple means education in spiritual life. And actually spiritual life is life. This material life, the bodily conception of life, is dead life. Aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam (CC Madhya 19.75). This nice shirt you have changed because there is life. When there is no life, who is going to change dress? The body is there, but why you are not interested in changing the dress? Better interest . . . the sooner the body is thrown away or burned up, better. So similarly . . . (break) There is a proverb that a vulture goes very high, but his ambition is where is a dead body. As soon as he finds a dead body, (growling sound) immediately. And we see, "Oh, how high he has gone." So what is the going up so high if your aim is to find out a dead body? And actually, these aeronautics, they went to very high, suppose they went to moon. But after going there they find, "Where is Moscow? Where is this?" The same vulture business. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to give relief to the human society. So everyone should cooperate with this movement. Unfortunately, there are so many envious persons, they are writing against us, talking against us. They should be envious. Because they want to exploit, keeping the people in ignorance. So our preaching is very difficult task, still we're trying our best. Commissioner: That's what I find, Swāmījī. My work is also very difficult. Work is very difficult. We have about 30,000 temples in this state, properties that have temples, the . . . (indistinct) . . . of temples, interest in the temples . . . Prabhupāda: No, it can be . . . if government takes our advice, we can give them advice how to organize, how to utilize. Commissioner: Definitely. We want a scheme. Definitely. Fortunately, it is the land of this Kṛṣṇā and Godāvarī. It is a sacred land. Tuṅgabhadrā, Kṛṣṇā, Godāvarī. We are finding where everywhere there has been some kind of ups and downs. It has been studied. Prabhupāda: It is the government's duty to settle up. But they must know how to settle up. If they do not know, then they cannot do anything. Commissioner: No, we want guidance. Of course. Prabhupāda: That guidance we can give you. That guidance we can give. Because we have taken the brāhmaṇa's position. The brāhmaṇa's duty is to give guidance to the kṣatriya . Government means kṣatriya . So if the kṣatriyas take guidance from the brāhmaṇa and they try to execute, then everything will be all right. So we can give you sufficient guidance, provided you accept it. (laughter) Commissioner: The end is common. And we have found yesterday some of your śiṣyas had come. They're so happy. They said: "This is what the requirement is," and we accept him as a śiṣya . Prabhupāda: Temple means a center, educational center, education. (aside) Give them prasāda . Bring. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Commissioner: And we have centers through Tirupati. All over the country in our important centers, we have got some centers. Prabhupāda: Now the thing is that, say, for Tirupati, it has got biggest income. But I understand that this income is being engaged for industrial purpose. But that, how to utilize in industrial purpose, that you do not know. *Commissioner: But just one thing, let me explain Swāmījī. We are not directly giving to industry. What we are doing is we are depositing in a fixed deposit in certain banks, getting the highest interest. That interest we are utilizing for Sanskrit studies, Vedic studies, etcetera. We are not directly giving. What we are doing is this: we invest in your bank, but bank shall invest in a productive industrial purpose. We put a condition. We are not directly putting in the industry, and that's a wrong propaganda that's being done. What we are doing is the interest that comes, the funds that are there, they are safely there in a bank. The interest that comes, we utilize only for religious purposes, like, as I said, the dharma - pracāra, veda*-pracāra , all that we are doing. *Prabhupāda: So, I have taken this veda*-pracāra. Why not come and join with us? Commissioner: Yes, definitely. *Prabhupāda: All over the world they're accepting. Now these foreigners, they're accepting. I have done it single*-handed. So if the government comes forward and join with me, we can do at least ten times work. *Commissioner: How, kindly give us, sir, if you have . . . I don't know if I'm taking your very valuable time. We are very sincere about it. We are having Himalayan opposition for some of our schemes. But when I studied yesterday—because before I came to you I thought I shouldn't just come for wasting your valuable time—therefore I have found that your aims are what we have been thinking of for the Society. The veda*-pracāra , we were thinking that we have also started on a small scale, not on your scale. And if it is that we were thinking in these terms—translation of these Vedas . . . *Prabhupāda: First of all, first of all, you must know what is Veda . Vedas , vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Vedic knowledge means to understand Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself, to understand Him. That is Bhagavad*-gītā . So if you accept the principles of Bhagavad-gītā , the whole Vedas are accepted. Because purpose of Veda is to understand Kṛṣṇa. And that Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself—"I'm like this." So where is the difficulty to understand Vedas ? *Commissioner: May I explain to you what we have, we are doing, Swāmījī? In the villages we have now taken statistics of our veda*-paṇḍitas. There are three hundred of them. Now they have said they don't want to come out of their villages. We have said wherever they are, in their own village, for one or two hours, they meet, chant the Veda in the temple or the village. Prabhupāda: They'll not do that. Commissioner: They are now willing to. Prabhupāda: There may be some percentage. If you do not accept the recognized process . . . just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was a great scholar. So He was chanting and dancing. So some of the sannyāsīs , Māyāvādī sannyāsīs in Benares . . . (to devotee) You keep it there, they will take. There was a meeting, and the question was that "You are a sannyāsī . . ." This question was put to Caitanya Mahāprabhu that, "You have taken sannyāsa , You do not read Vedānta , and You are mixing with the sentimental persons, chanting and dancing. What is this?" This was the question. So He explained that, "Yes, My Guru Mahārāja found Me a great rascal." Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). You understand Bengali? No. "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a rascal number one. Therefore he has chastised Me." What is that? Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana . "He has said that 'You are rascal, You cannot read *Vedas* and Vedānta . You are rascal. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing that." . . . (indistinct Hindi) Commissioner: Chanting, yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: So He is Kṛṣṇa Himself. He's neither rascal nor fool. But He represented the rascal and fools that who will read Vedānta . Everyone is after this Veda . No student will come to study Vedānta . That is not possible in this age. You see? Maybe somebody interested, but generally they'll not come. Even if one is born in the brāhmaṇa family, he is no more interested. *Commissioner: May I submit, Swāmījī, therefore what we did was, these three hundred people, if they chant, three hundred rupees for a dāna*-paṭha , and two hundred rupees for him and a hundred rupees a . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no, brāhmaṇa , why he will take money? Commissioner: It is . . . no, we are giving it as dakṣiṇā . Prabhupāda: No, dakṣiṇā . But they are chanting in exchange of dakṣiṇā . Because you are giving dakṣiṇā , therefore they are chanting. And you stop that dakṣiṇā , nobody will come. Commissioner: True. You are correct. (laughs) That we have told them. If they teach their own children, hundred rupees for him for teaching, forty rupees for a child who learns. Prabhupāda: That they will do, but when the hundred rupees will not be sufficient, they'll give up. Commissioner: One thing is that at least one child is learning in each and every house . . . Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that is not the process. If you want to satisfy with money, and in exchange of money he wants to chant *Vedas* , that is not . . . Commissioner: No, Swāmījī, some of them didn't care either for the money. Prabhupāda: Some of them maybe. Commissioner: And they were starving. And they were starving. Prabhupāda: But generally, generally, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's process should be taken, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu represented Himself that, "I am fool." He is not fool. He's representing the fools of this age. So if we take that process, it will be successful. It will be successful. Commissioner: That also . . . (indistinct) . . . that bhajana and every. Prabhupāda: Yes, let them come. Commissioner: That is all. Prabhupāda: Let them come in the temple, and there may be sumptuously offering of bhoga . Let them chant and take prasādam . In this chanting, illiterate, literate, rascal, fool, lower, higher, everyone can join. And give them prasādam . See the effect. *Commissioner: Yes. That is also part of the . . . that is the other part of it. We are having dhana*-prasthānam, bhajana group, hari-kathā group . . . *Prabhupāda: But kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ . The Vedas are meant for the brāhmaṇas . So there is no brāhmaṇa practically. Neither there is training of brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa means he must speak truth. Satyā śama dama titik . . . and if you ask nowadays anybody that, "You don't speak lie, you speak truth," he will laugh that, "What a rascal this is. By speaking truth one can live nowadays?" he will say. The first business is satyam . And if you ask him, "You speak truth," he will laugh. So where is brāhmaṇa ? A brāhmaṇa is so simple that if you ask him about his secrecy, he'll tell you, "Yes, this is . . ." Satyam . Just like Jābāla Upaniṣad, he was asked, he went to Gautama Muni . . . Devotee: Satyaka. Prabhupāda: Satyaka, yes, for initiation. Gautama Muni asked him, "Who is your father?" He said: "I do not know." "Go to your mother." He went to the mother. Mother said: "Oh, my dear son, I do not know." Means he was a prostitute's son. So he came to Gautama Muni and said: "Sir, my mother does not know; I do not know." So he said: "You are a brāhmaṇa ." Devotee: This is our tradition. Prabhupāda: "Because you don't keep any secrecy you are brāhmaṇa . I'll initiate." So it is not the birth, but the quality—truthful. But these qualities will come when you make him a devotee. So this process should be taken, how to make him a devotee. And the easiest process of making devotee: let them come to the temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasādam . Then gradually they will become . . . I began this movement on this. Commissioner: Very good idea. Very simple idea. Prabhupāda: Very simple. And they have come. I never asked them to study *Vedas* in the beginning. What they'll read Veda ? What do they know? But this process has become successful. So if you take this process, it will be very quickly successful. And then literature. I never gave them literature. I have got about eighty books. Not that in the beginning I asked them, "Come here and read books." No. "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam ." Now they are interested in reading books, in publishing them, in selling them and everything. They are doing everything. So if you take the authorized program it will be successful. Otherwise, it will not be successful. Commissioner: Well . . . (indistinct) . . . and how long the Swāmījī will be here? I'll take up the program. We will. As a matter of fact, somehow . . . Prabhupāda: I am always at your service. *Commissioner: Somehow, the coincides, our program, we have taken a small scale. Every temple has been asked to have this bhajana, hari*-kathā , then this pūjā . . . Prabhupāda: There must be some competent man to induce. Everything will be planned. Commissioner: Therefore our training has to be started perhaps here. Some of those people who could go. Now these are all the ideas, of course. If you could give an impetus, that's exactly what I wanted to . . . take advice from you. Now if a center is established. What we lack very badly are those people who can competently take up this work in the whole state. The temples are there, the funds are there, organization is there. Men who are, as you say, the real brāhmaṇa , who could go and preach this, we are lacking. We are lacking. And he has to be trained. And the right training you are giving. Anywhere I see your men are . . . Prabhupāda: So we can give men. Commissioner: Yes. And a training institute has to be started. Very badly we need it. My department also, having any number of people. It is suffering because we don't have the proper people with that objective to govern . . . Prabhupāda: Because the culture is lost. Culture is lost. Commissioner: Because we take the local people as trust board members. Local people. We appoint officers. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said if you keep them dogs, what is the use of United Nation? You cannot make the dogs united. That is not possible. Commissioner: Yes. Therefore recently in Tirupati we have been thinking of starting a training institute along with Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. We asked . . . Prabhupāda: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have no idea. Commissioner: They have no idea. Ramakrishna Mission we asked. Prabhupāda: They have no idea. Commissioner: They don't have people. They said: "We don't have men even for our own missions." Prabhupāda: No. How long they can go on with false pretense? And these people, they have no idea what is spiritual life. It is a profession for collecting money. So if you . . . we do not like to criticize. Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, K. Munshi, he did not believe there is life after death or he did not believe there is Kṛṣṇa, fact. This is the founder. So what is their knowledge? And Vivekananda made Nārāyaṇa daridra . So this is their manufacturing ideas. They have no sound knowledge. Vacant. They are misled themselves, and they will mislead others. This is going on. But if you say that, "You are the only man?" I can say: "Yes, I am the only man at the present moment." You believe or not believe. And why? Because I am following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. That's all. I do not touch anything. That is our process. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we say, that's all. Therefore there is little success. I don't manufacture. I have no extraordinary power or I cannot show magic or jugglery of words. But I do sincerely to present what Kṛṣṇa has said. So if you do that, you'll be successful. If you do not do that, you'll never be successful. If you manufacture idea, you'll not . . . we must know that we are defective. Our manufacturing of idea all defective. We must take standard instructions from Kṛṣṇa. Then everything . . . so if you stick to this point, then we can guide you. And you'll be successful. Guidance is Kṛṣṇa. Our duty is to present Kṛṣṇa. Just like somebody has sent you money order, 1,000 rupees. I am a peon; I am not giving you the money. The money is sent by somebody. But I do not open it, adulterate it—that is my honesty. That is my honesty. So the instruction is Kṛṣṇa's. If I honestly deliver the same message to you, then you are benefited, I am benefited. And as soon as I pilfer it, then it is useless, I am useless, and you don't get profits, success. So if you decide to take Kṛṣṇa's instruction rightly, then we can give you very good guidance. Everywhere you'll be successful. Everything is there. Commissioner: Any plans to have training and . . . *Prabhupāda: Anything. It must be sanctioned by the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Then it will be successful. Commissioner: For success the people, the local language, so that they may be . . . Prabhupāda: Language difficulty is there. That we have to solve. Commissioner: Therefore training has to be done here and in other places, anyway, and a center has to be there. You could plan one of those with also . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, plan is there. Just like we are doing. And we can give you in detail. Provided you accept this principle that we shall abide by the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Commissioner: Who questions the *Gītā* and the *Upaniṣads* ? *Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. It is very difficult. You see. Big, big scholars, big, big politicians, they are supposed to be preaching Bhagavad*-gītā . They take their photograph in front of Bhagavad-gītā —but without Kṛṣṇa. They'll never talk of Kṛṣṇa any time. Banish Kṛṣṇa. Even Gandhi has said: "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different." Perhaps you have read in his Gita Press edition. Kṛṣṇa is speaking . . . Radhakrishnan said when Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, he says: "It is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad bhaktaḥ, and he says it is not to the Kṛṣṇa person. Just see how misleading it is. And if a person like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi, misleads, then who will hear me? What I am? There is one big person in Bombay, he said that he has set aside ten lakhs of rupees for Gītā-pracāra . But when I proposed Gītā-pracāra means kṛṣṇa-pracāra , so he said: "No, I want Gītā without Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) Everyone . . . *Commissioner: Then who is the Gītā*-pracāra? Gītā-pracāra. Prabhupāda: They are doing that. You can see from this big, big person. Gandhi used to say that he believes in *Gītā* and *Gītā* gives him solace in difficult times and so on, so on. But has he ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Tilok has ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Radhakrishnan has ever preached Kṛṣṇa? Nobody. Their policy is take Sītā and kill Rāma. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā. Take away *Gītā* and kill Kṛṣṇa. So Rāvaṇa's policy will never be successful. Rāvaṇa's policy means he will be destroyed. You cannot do any harm to Rāma, but he will be destroyed. This policy, that take Sītā and kill Rāma, means he will destroy himself. So this is going on. Take *Gītā* and kill Kṛṣṇa. This will destroy the whole thing, this Rāvaṇa's policy. And Hanumān's policy, somehow or other rescue Sītā and get her seated by the side of Rāma. Therefore he's worshiped, Vajrāṅgajī. That is the difference between Rāvaṇa's policy. Sītā is the via media. But one is trying to bring back Sītā and seat her by the side of Rāma, and another is trying to take away Sītā and kill Rāma. This wrong policy will not save us. We have to accept the instruction of *Gītā* and accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord. Then everything will be all right. (aside) Prasādam ? So thank you very much for your coming. Commissioner: Thank you. And to you, Swāmī. Prabhupāda: So, kindly if you will agree to take the instruction of *Gītā* , I am always at your service. I'll give you such guidance—our men, our everything. But you have to decide this. You cannot take up this policy, take *Gītā* and banish Kṛṣṇa. Commissioner: (laughter) Prabhupāda: That is not wanted. (end) (Meeting with Endowments Commissioner) Prabhupāda: But we are so . . . (aside) You can keep it there now. Keep. So we do not believe in these things, that there is Bhagavān, and Bhagavān comes, He has got a mission. Do you believe in these things? Frankly speaking, do you believe in these things? Mr. Raju: We do. We do believe. We feel it also in our body. Prabhupāda: Then you must act according to His mission. According to His mission. The mission is, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata ( BG 4.7). When we are engaged in glānir dharma , which is not dharma —cheating. Glānir , glānir . What is the glānir ? Mr. Raju: Hatred. Hatred. Prabhupāda: No. Glānir means which is abominable. Mr. Raju: Abominable. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). So what is that glānir ? Glānir means . . . dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , there is . . . Yamarāja said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam . Dharma cannot be manufactured by any man. (aside) You have got Sixth Canto? Harikeśa: Sixth Canto, Third Chapter, nineteenth verse. *Prabhupāda: Yes, find this verse. Yamarāja said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam . Even the demigods, they cannot manufacture dharma . Harikeśa: "Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great ṛṣis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras , ordinary human beings, Vidyādharas and Cāraṇas." *Prabhupāda: Nobody can. This is the principle. So when so many rascal dharma is introduced, that is dharmasya glāniḥ. So we must know this. Then we can understand what is the mission of Bhagavān. When rascals are introducing so*-called so many dharmas , that is dharmasya glāniḥ . Do you accept or not? Mr. Raju: Yes, we accept. *Prabhupāda: Therefore, Bhagavān concludes at the end, "You rascal, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66)." This is dharma . To surrender to the Lord, that is dharma . And in another place, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Without this, all cheating. If there is no bhakti , surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all these kind of dharmas , they're all cheating. Therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). On this, Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented, atra mokṣa vañca api nirastam . Dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41,CC Ādi 1.90). So according to this principle, they're all cheating. So-called religious system, artha , economic development, sense gratification. Just like that we have created so many social dharma : saṁsāra-dharma , gṛhastha-dharma , this dharma , that dharma . So in that way, they're all cheating. Therefore, our request is that yajñārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). In the Bālajī's temple, mostly poor cultivators, I have seen, they go. And they want to give something to the Lord. Yajñārthe . So the karmīs , they're advised, yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad arpaṇam , "Give Me." So these karmīs , somehow or other, by their great fortune they're giving something to the Lord. Yajñārthe . (someone enters) Aiye . That money should not be utilized for any other purpose. That is our mission. It must be utilized for the purpose to fulfill the mission of the Lord. Mission of the Lord is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66): how people can be trained up to give up all these nonsensical type of dharma, and how to become a devotee of Lord. For this purpose this money should be spent. Then it will be all right. Mr. Raju: Mostly it is utilized for that. Almost completely. Only one or two is mere, what is called, charity. The industry . . . there's been a wrong impression that we are working directly with industry. *Prabhupāda: No, no. That is . . . it should be utilized simply for the purpose of awakening the devotional, what is called, inspiration. For no other purpose. Just like in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said, nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Kṛṣṇa-bhakti , nitya-siddha . This is our natural. Just like these Europeans and Americans, they have become kṛṣṇa-bhaktas . So what business they had to do with Kṛṣṇa? They're coming from Christian family, Jewish families, or some of them Muhammadan family. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṇa? They haven't got to do anything with Kṛṣṇa. So how they have become a kṛṣṇa-bhakta ? Even the . . . just like he is coming from Parsi family, he is coming from Jewish family, he is coming from Christian family, he is coming from Europe, he is coming from America. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṇa? We Indians, or Hindus, we may have some concern with Kṛṣṇa, but what they have got? They haven't got anything to do with Kṛṣṇa. Now you pay them one lakh of rupees and ask them, "You become again Christian. You become again Parsi." Just see. Make them again Christian. Practical. These are young boys. You ask them that, "I'll give you good girl, I'll give you good money. You give up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, come here." Ask them. Make a test. They'll refuse, they'll kick out. How they have become? Therefore it is a fact, as it is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta , kṛṣṇa-bhakti nitya-siddha . Everyone has got kṛṣṇa-bhakti eternally. It is not artificial. They have not become kṛṣṇa-bhakta artificially. It is the eternal link that has been awakened. Mr. Raju: There's no doubt of that, Swāmījī. Let us say there are hundred leprosy patients. There are one thousand orphans. We put them there, give them food, and make them pray to Kṛṣṇa . . . *Prabhupāda: Well, you are . . . they are mistaken. But if you have to awaken kṛṣṇa*-bhakti , why you go to the lepers? Mr. Raju: No, they have come here. They are all there in the temple. They are not allowing others to pray properly. They are all, one thousand . . . in the past . . . *Prabhupāda: We have no objection, that . . . because our principle is kṛṣṇa*-bhakti nitya-siddha . So kṛṣṇa-bhakti is there in everyone. So leper or non-leper. Just like our Vivekananda, he took up daridra-nārāyaṇa . This is an absurd proposition. Nārāyaṇa is never daridra . But if you put this argument, that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, so if Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, why you take up only daridra-nārāyaṇa ? Why not dhanī-nārāyaṇa also? If you have got so broad vision that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, therefore we see everyone, so why you particularly take the daridra-nārāyaṇa ? Similarly, kṛṣṇa-bhakti is everywhere. It is in the leper or non-leper. So why should we take particularly the leper? So that is outwardly a social service, that they are taking care of the leper. So if that vision, it will not be right. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti even requires . . . even a karmī like big, big owner of factories, he's more diseased than the leper, because he has no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . So we have to take care of the leper and the richest man also if he has no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Mr. Raju: That also. That also. Prabhupāda: No, therefore we should not make any distinction that only the lepers will be taken care of. Mr. Raju: Again, let's say a rich man or somebody comes, prays . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone is more than leper. Mr. Raju: He takes prasāda in the temple, he goes. But this man is not allowed. He can't come. Therefore God goes to him. *Prabhupāda: We have to take . . . you cannot manufacture where God goes. You should have to take lesson from God. That is one thing. If we manufacture ideas, that will never be successful. That will never be successful. Don't manufacture ideas. If you want to be servant of God, you must take instruction from God. That is wanted. You cannot manufacture idea, that "God wants this." So first of all try to understand what is God's mission. God's mission is, it is clearly said, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). So, more or less, everyone is entangled with this glānir dharma . They have manufactured. Just like the demigod worship. This is a glānir dharma . Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). And Kṛṣṇa clearly says, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). *So if you want to utilize, people are giving in good faith, Bālajī, Kṛṣṇa, their hard*-earned money, whatever we are giving something. Yajña , that is wanted. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). That money should not be utilized for any other purpose except yajña . First of all, you have to decide like that. Then we can give you direction. First of all, you have to decide that this money, not a single farthing should be spent for any other purpose than performing yajña . Then we can give you right direction. And if you have plan to utilize this money for any other purpose, that is not Kṛṣṇa's mission; *that is your mission. So first of all you have to decide whether you are going to execute Kṛṣṇa's mission or your mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission is very clearly defined. It is there. Everything is declared there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . We can do it very nicely. But if you want to do any other mission, then you can do. You are government, you are in power, you can do that. But that will not be pleasing to Kṛṣṇa. He has got a mission. That is stated: dharmasya glānir bhavati . So any dharma , so-called dharma , which does not awaken their Kṛṣṇa consciousness is glāniḥ . Kṛṣṇa does not want that. If you're against the will of Kṛṣṇa, against the mission of Kṛṣṇa, if you want to do something, you can do it. People are doing so many things. That is also mentioned by Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: Iti te jñānam . . . (BG 18.63). Prabhupāda: No. That one verse is that one does not . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is that, "Surrender unto Me." Now, who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa? That is stated by Kṛṣṇa: *Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he must be grouped either duṣkṛtina , mūḍha , narādhama , māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna , āsuraṁ bhāvam . We do that. Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he must be grouped among them. And for them, what is their . . . tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram . (aside) Find out this verse, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān . . . if anyone is envious of Kṛṣṇa, then what is his punishment? Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is their punishment. Harikeśa: "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence into various demoniac species of life." Prabhupāda: And next verse? Harikeśa: "Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence." Prabhupāda: So this is my request, that our money . . . there is nothing "Our money", everything Kṛṣṇa's. But we are thinking, because we are asuric. So asuras think like that. Just like Kaṁsa, Hiraṇyakaśipu: "Hah!" Rāvaṇa: "Hah! What is Rāma?" That is asura's. They think like that, and that is asuric. But otherwise, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore yajña is advised. The sooner you hand over Kṛṣṇa's property to Kṛṣṇa, it is good for you. *Mr. Raju: Swāmījī, we are karma*-yogīs . We start the day with surrendering to God and asking Him to show us the way. Beyond that, I don't know what our duty . . . *Prabhupāda: But a karma*-yogī , why you should take Kṛṣṇa's money for karma? Mr. Raju: For what? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . that is for . . . Prabhupāda: That is the . . . Mr. Raju: It is not used. As you have correctly said, that way only it is used. There may be different . . . *Prabhupāda: No, the first thing is that if you decide that Kṛṣṇa's money should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's mission, so Kṛṣṇa's mission is this, that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). You have to bring them to the sense of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And there is a process. You cannot manufacture that process. You have to take the process from Kṛṣṇa. That Kṛṣṇa says: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. You have to teach people how he can think of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā . Then the mission is there. That is Kṛṣṇa also. Kṛṣṇa says: *You have to teach them like that. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām , as we are doing. We're always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But if you manufacture in your own way, that you can do. Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ na sa siddhim avāpnoti (BG 16.23). That will never be successful. If you have to execute the mission of Kṛṣṇa, you have to take instruction of Kṛṣṇa and do it rigidly. Then you'll be successful. Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is that one must know Kṛṣṇa and surrender to Him. This is mission. Kṛṣṇa does not say that by karma-yoga one can understand Him. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). You cannot say, "We are karma-yogīs ." Karma-yogī means the third class. He's karmī , and little mixed up with bhakti . Adulterated. Jñāna-yogī , he's not a bhakta . He's jñānī , but just to bring him gradually, a little bhakti . You see? And real bhakti is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). When it will be tintless of any karma and jñāna , then it is pure bhakti . That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Not mixed up with jñāna , karma , yoga . Otherwise, how Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti ? He could have said, "Any way," as these rascals say, "Any way go, you will get Kṛṣṇa." That Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ (BG 7.3). Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). So that tattva , bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). So we have to take this. You manufacture in your own way, and still you carry out the mission of Kṛṣṇa—that is contradiction. You have to take the lesson from Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be successful. Karma-yoga is for the third class. They are addicted to karma , a little bhakti , that's all. That is not pure. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). When there is not a tinge of karma and jñāna , that is pure bhakti . That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. *So everything is there, direction is there. We can guide you—not according to our whims, but according to śāstra . And if you agree to accept, then we can also cooperate with you. But if you manufacture your own way, then how we can possibly . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is this: yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). Except kṛṣṇa*-bhakti , bhaktyā , everything is glāniḥ . All glāniḥ . And that can be awakened, kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Just like these boys are doing. That is enunciated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta : nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa—everyone has kṛṣṇa-bhakti . You have to awaken simply. Nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema sādhya kabhu naya (CC Madhya 22.107). It is not artificial. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya . If the hearing about Kṛṣṇa is pure . . . that is also confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : *So we have to follow this formula. This is śāstra*-viddhi : one step to another. And if you don't care for the śāstra-viddhi , we can do that, but na siddhiṁ na avāpnoti : it will never be successful. It will be a show, big show, but there will be no siddhi . (pause) *Prabhupāda: If you want to do according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, our cent percent cooperation will be there. We'll not touch a single farthing of your money, but we can give you direction, "Spend it like that." And government men, you can see that we are not touching a single farthing of your money, but it is being spent for Kṛṣṇa's mission. That you can believe. It is the duty of the government men to see that people may not misrepresent. That is the Vedic injunction. Pṛthu Mahārāja was to see that a brāhmin is doing, acting like brāhmin , kṣatriya is doing like kṣatriya . So it is government's duty to see that Bālajī's money, Kṛṣṇa's money, is to the farthing spent for His mission. That is your duty. That is government's duty, that nothing is misused, nothing is misrepresented. But we know how to execute the mission of Kṛṣṇa. Everyone can know, because direction is there. It is not a secret thing. It is open secret. But you have to act. That requires faith. And so far my experience goes, the whole world will take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unfortunately, I am struggling single*-handed. And they are criticizing me in the Parliament. You have seen the recent article Blitz against me? What is that heading? "Ungodly face." I am doing ungodly? But they are advertising like that, trying to make me unpopular. The Māyāvādīs, they say that Bhaktivedanta Swami is ruining Hinduism. They are saying like that . . . Bolta hai ki nahi? . . . mayavadi saying like this? (Saying like this or not? . . . mayavadi is saying like this?) So I am being criticized in Parliament, I am criticized by the so-called jagad-gurus who have never seen what is jagat . And so on, so on. Mr. Raju: No, for a country suffering from multiplicity of gods, Hinduism, you are doing a very great service, asking them to concentrate on Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is . . . only God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Mr. Raju: How you are enlightening them, it is a very great service. No doubt about that actually. They don't know. And you are making the man, the human being, a servant of that God . . . (indistinct) . . . divinity. Prabhupāda: This is not my manufacture. Śāstra says, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . Mr. Raju: They have said so many things in the name of śāstra . They have said so many things in the name of śāstra . That you are making it one is very good. *Prabhupāda: No, those who are approved śāstra is accepted by the ācāryas . Śāstra , which is accepted by the ācārya , that is śāstra . You cannot make. As you cannot manufacture religion, you cannot manufacture śāstras . Approved by the ācāryas . Ācāryopāsanam . Therefore Kṛṣṇa says also that you should know from the ācārya . Everyone, they are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā with the purpose of killing Kṛṣṇa. Everyone. The politicians, the scholars, the rascals and everyone. The main purpose is how to kill Kṛṣṇa. In Bombay I have got a very big friend, you know him. I do not wish to disclose his name. He has set aside ten lakhs of rupees from preaching Gītā . But he wants Gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Rāma without Sītā. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā; Rāma will remain alone. So take away Gītā and cut Kṛṣṇa. But I cannot make any compromise. I shall . . . my life is ended; *now I'm eighty*-one. I do not know . . . but so long I shall live, I shall make no compromise, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svaya m (SB 1.3.28). Dṛḍha-vrata . And that is a fact. Why shall I mislead people? They are searching after God, what is God. Here is God. Why don't you take it? See His activities. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47). Tally with the formula of God, you see Kṛṣṇa is there. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . So whatever teeny effort I have got, I shall try to establish temples of Kṛṣṇa all over the world with my teeny income. I have got book sales. Kṛṣṇa has given me very good chance. It is beyond any dream. We are selling books sixty thousand dollars daily. Indian man (1): Six lakhs about. Mahāṁsa: Thirty thousand dollars. Indian man (1): Sixty thousand dollars. Mahāṁsa: Yes, daily. Prabhupāda: And we are known the topmost publisher of religious and philosophical books in the world. And we are approved . . . our books are approved by the greatest learned scholars of all universities. Because they are seeing a new light. No hodgepodge philosophy. India also, wherever we are going. Now he has come . . . within how many days? Within a month. Prabhaviṣṇu: Yes, one month, in Uttar Pradesh . . . Prabhupāda: He has got seventy standing orders. Our books are, say, eighty. So eighty books, say, average five dollars. So eighty books, five dollars means . . . Prabhaviṣṇu: Four hundred dollars. Prabhupāda: Four hundred dollars. Such seventy orders. Mr. Raju: Four hundred by seventy. Prabhupāda: He has secured order in one month, seventy orders. In one place. Standing orders. "Whatever is published, give us, and then others, when they will be published, send also." They have not seen even the books. Tirupati Balajī Temple manager: This is practical pracāra , giving of books. Prabhupāda: No librarian, no university, no scholar, no professor is refusing. As soon as we go, "Oh, yes, bring. We shall take." So I am bringing money from the foreign countries by my selling books, and they are criticizing me that I am CIA. (laughter) Just see the fun. And there is nobody to give me protection. Tirupati Balajī Temple manager: Not Lord giving protection? (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, Lord giving, giving. That I am confident. Because they are envious, "How Bhaktivedanta Swami is getting so much money? He's paying crores and crores. There must be some political . . ." As they are getting from Russia. But actually, I am selling. I am working night, writing these books, and these boys are helping me to sell it. I am getting enough money to spend it. What is my fault? For Kṛṣṇa's sake we have sacrificed everything, our life and everything, and Kṛṣṇa is giving us money and we are spending it, and they are criticizing in the Parliament. This is my misfortune. I don't take it as misfortune. Because asuras are always there. Even Kṛṣṇa's time. Mr. Raju: They are criticizing, but not . . . Prabhupāda: Because we are getting so much money. For this temple we have to spend . . . ten lakhs ? Mahāṁsa: Twelve lakhs . Prabhupāda: Twelve lakhs . So by selling my books. And I have sent him more than four lakhs , five lakhs from foreign countries. This is my fault. Similarly, in Bombay we are spending every month seven lakhs regularly. That is coming from foreign countries. And they are thinking that I'm taking bribe and acting as CIA. Just see. And CIA have become Vaiṣṇavas with long śikhā and giving up all facilities of life, and they are dancing with the CIA. People have no common sense that CIA agent could stay in a nice hotel and enjoy life. Why so much vairāgya ? Even my Godbrothers said that American government has given me two crores of rupees. Now we are planning to have a temple in Māyāpur where . . . what is, what is the economic estimates, where we shall spend how much money monthly? Harikeśa: Two hundred thousand dollars monthly. Prabhupāda: Two hundred thousand dollars monthly. Mr. Raju: Navadwip, mayapur me. (In Navadwip, Māyāpur.) Prabhupāda: Two hundred thousand. (break) Nobody will be able to check it. He'll go on. That is Kṛṣṇa. Here is Dictaphone. I work at night. I get up at half past twelve, one, and I write books. And daytime I'm engaged. And daily either ten page, twenty page written, that is sent to Los Angeles. You have seen our Press? And they take care. How our books printed, have you got that film? Mahāṁsa: I have it in 16mm. Yes. Prabhupāda: Why don't you show? Mahāṁsa: Just now? Prabhupāda: Yes. It will take little . . . Hari-śauri: (indistinct background conversation about projectors) Mahāṁsa: I don't have a Fairchild. I have it in 16mm film. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But the Press . . . Mahāṁsa: Yes, the Press film. Prabhupāda: You can show, they'll be . . . (background talk about projectors) How in the American industrial process we are printing our books. I made the Book Trust, sixty thousand dollars they are selling. So as author, I could have derived from them at least six thousand, ten percent minimum. Six thousand dollars per day. Six thousand dollars means sixty thousand rupees. That could have been my daily income. But I take little khicuṛi from them, that's all. (Harikeśa laughing) Indian man: Two crores per year, it comes to . . . Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . he was last month at Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: Our farming projects, very successful. Now here, Badrukajī is also giving us some land. Aiye . . . bathiye. (Come . . . sit.) (someone arrives) (background conversation) Hari-śauri: Vāsughoṣa. Prabhupāda: So we have got big program. Any amount of money you bring to us, we shall spend it immediately. (background conversation) (pause) (loud kīrtana in background) (break) *Prabhupāda: There is a logic, andha*-paṅgu-nyāya . One man is blind, another man is lame. Both are useless. But when they combined together the lame man was taken by the blind man. So the lame man has got eyes, he was giving direction: "Go this way." So both their work was done. So I say that India is lame and America is blind. Let us combine together. Then we can give a great culture for the benefit of the whole human society. India has no money—lame. And they have got money, but they have no knowledge. So let us combine together. This is logic. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya . *So by this cooperation they have . . . when I was in India I published three parts of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam with great difficulty. And now, since I have gone there, I am publishing every month a book. So on account of their cooperation we are able to publish so many books and organize the sale all over the world. But it is true that this culture is very much welcome all over the world. That is happening. That is real execution of the mission of Kṛṣṇa. Not to keep Kṛṣṇa within the boundaries of certain areas. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā . Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya (BG 14.4). He's the father of all living entities. They should know it. *We have got many other films also—how we are giving protection to the cows in different farms, how we are getting sumptuous milk. Two years ago there was an article in the Navabharat Times in Delhi, big article, one full page, first page. And the heading was that New Vṛndāvana Mein "aadyatmikta ki jamuna, aur doodh*-dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai."("In the Yamuna of spirituality, and a river of milk curd is flowing.") They gave this heading. And they gave all details how the use of the land. New Vrindavan in Virginia, we have got one thousand acre of land, and we are utilizing it. How they are living peacefully. So we want to make an example here with this six hundred acres of land, if it is given to us. Kṛṣṇa's formula is there: annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Produce sufficient quantity of anna . Everyone will be satisfied. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Kṛṣṇa never says by factory bhavanti bhūtāni . (laughter) *Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). This formula should be . . . that is Kṛṣṇa's mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission . . . what to speak of Kṛṣṇa's mission, Kṛṣṇa (loud kirtan). Krishna se hi juda hua hai. Bās. (It is connected to Kṛṣṇa.) Kṛṣṇa, to carry personally, bol rahe hain, (He is saying,) aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ye log kaha rahe hain Krishna Nirakara hai. (These people, they say Kṛṣṇa is formless.) Kṛṣṇa nirākāra . He's personally speaking. And Vyāsadeva writes, bhagavān uvāca . Propaganda phail raha hai Bhagvan kuch hai hi nahi. (Propaganda is spreading that there is no God.)) Tirupati Balajī Temple manager: (indistinct) Om purusham . . . mera dhayn karo, mera kaun hai mante hi nahi. ( Om purusham . . . meditate on Me—who is "Me"? They do not accept.) (break) (loud kirtan ) Prabhupāda: Idaṁ jñānam ākhyātam ? Harikeśa: Iti te jñānam ākhyātam . Prabhupāda: Iti te jñānam ākhyātam . . . Harikeśa: Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā . I'll get it. "Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully and then do what you wish to do." Prabhupāda: Just see. Kṛṣṇa has explained everything, all confidential. Now consider about it, think about it, and do whatever you like. Yathecchasi tathā. The liberty is there. Whatever you like, you can do. Kṛṣṇa will not force. He can force, but He does not interfere with little liberty. Then he becomes stone. Living entity has got little liberty because he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. When Arjuna was decided, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā , Kṛṣṇa gave him liberty, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). But he voluntarily accepted, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . Find out. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is real religion. Harikeśa: "Arjuna said: My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions." Prabhupāda: That's it. Yes, that is real . . . (indistinct) . . . that is translated in Bengali, *"Now I am prepared, naṣṭo mohaḥ, now my illusion is over." . . . (indistinct) . . . that is perfection. Kṛṣṇa gives you liberty, whatever you like you do. But when you come to the conclusion, "No, I shall do what you say," that is perfection. I can do whatever I like. That liberty is there. But if I accept Kṛṣṇa's instruction, that is bhakti . Find out that verse, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). Harikeśa: "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion." Prabhupāda: This is religion. They are mahātmās . Previous verse? Harikeśa: "O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible." Prabhupāda: That is mahātmā . This is mahātmā . Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha (BG 9.13). Find out this . . . *Harikeśa: Daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya*-manaso jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam . Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Harikeśa: "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare. (indistinct background conversation) Vāsughoṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This gentleman is the head of the Marwari community, Mr. Dinami. They only speak Hindi. They would like to speak to you, but they don't understand English. Prabhupāda: No, I can . . . main Hindi mein bol sakta hai. (I can speak in Hindi.) (loud kirtana ) (break) Indian man: Hindi mein bol sakta hai maharaj? (Can Mahārāja speak in Hindi?) Indian man: Maharaj ji Hindi mein bolenge. (Mahārāja will speak in Hindi.) Prabhupāda: Unless one is enthused, he cannot preach. It is not possible. I went there when I was about seventy years old. I was sitting in Vṛndāvana. So I thought that "My Guru Mahārāja wanted me; *Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted me. So in this old age, let me try." . . . (indistinct) . . . but by Kṛṣṇa's grace it became successful. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam , dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam (BG 10.10). So there is good field for propagating this cult. See our young men, they are . . . Udhar sab young men sab sharab chhod raha hai . . . aur idhar sharab pine ko ghum raha hai. Udhar maans chhod raha hai aur idhar maans khane ko dhoond raha hai. Juhu me ek bada sa beef shop aur Hindu log beef khana suru kar diye hain. Ab kya raha gaya hai. (There, all young men are giving up alcohol . . . and here they are roaming to drink alcohol. There they are giving up eating meat and here they are searching to eat meat. In Juhu there is a big beef shop and even the Hindus have started to eat beef.) And I inquired some of the Hindu boys that, "Do you eat beef?" So, they began to smile, then they accepted. Jab maans khata hai to wo beef hua ye hua sab ek hai. (When they eat meat then whether it is beef or some meat, how does it matter.) (break) Indian man: . . . Mahatma Gandhi ne kaha tha ki . . . band karwa denge. (Mahatma Gandhi had said . . . will be closed.) Prabhupāda: Keh dene se kya. (Just by saying what will happen.) The platform is finished. Khali bolne se kya hoga? Bangladesh me bolta hai (Prabhupada says Bengali saying) . . . baans hota hai na ek green rahta usko aap bend kar sakte hai aur wo jab yellow ho jata hai . . . . tuchchch . . . toh toot jata hai. Pahle to kuch sikhaya nahi jata hai ab jab yellow ho gaya to usko kya sikhaye. Toot gaya. (Just by saying what will happen? In Bangladesh there is a saying (Bengali saying) bamboo is there when it is green it can be bent but when it becomes yellow then . . . tuchchch . . . then it breaks on bending. Initially nothing is taught, now when these people have become yellow like dry bamboo then what to teach. They break.) Now, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Yathecchasi , yathā icchasi tathā kuru . Mr. Raju: No, we are ready for that. There is actually no difference at all than what you are saying. As a matter of fact, government is . . . that's what I said, they have started their own society, the society of Kṛṣṇa bhaktas . . . (indistinct) . . . this country, other countries . . . this country itself, it is such a great service. Prabhupāda: Whole world will accept. Mr. Raju: This country itself is such a great service. It will require miracle. Prabhupāda: Iske liye . . . (For this . . .) We can cooperate. *Mr. Raju: Unless you are so single*-minded it can't be. Therefore you say there is no compromise. Otherwise, if there are compromises, there will be adjustments, it will lead to dilution. We understand. *Prabhupāda: Compromise has to do. These boys, when they come for initiation, no compromise: "You have to do this. No illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, even up to smoking cigarettes or drinking tea, no gambling. If you accept, then you become my disciple." They accept. No compromise. Mr. Raju: (indistinct) . . . great coordination, because you are establishing a center here. That will be very good. Prabhupāda: We are meant for this purpose, coordination, but if you take our . . . (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have taken prasādam? Mr. Raju: Yes, we did. (minister and temple manager leave) (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . and he is such a big man that he goes above the ācāryas . Ati*-buddhi . Ati-buddhi galaya dekhe . "If one is overintelligent, hang him." That is a Bengali saying. Ati-buddhi galaya dekhe . If one is unnecessarily over intelligent, just hang him with a rope in the neck. So he is ati-buddhi . Anyway, he was intelligent to purchase. Devotee: (aside) He thought that it would explain . . . (indistinct) . . . (background conversation) Prabhupāda: You have to read the subject matter. Even if he thinks that it is written by Bopadeva, such a great knowledge, one has to read. Such great knowledge is not possible by Bopadeva and unless he is incarnation of God, Vyāsadeva. It is said . . . (indistinct) . . . not this . . . (indistinct) Mahāṁsa: Which volume do you want, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Second volume. Varīyān eṣa . . . Harikeśa: Second Canto, Part One, verse one. Prabhupāda: Find out this. Varīyān eṣa . . . Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Find out that verse when he says: "I have heard it from my father." Pariniṣṭhito 'pi nairguṇya . The verse begins pariniṣṭhito 'pi nairguṇya . Harikeśa: Idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma ? Idaṁ bhāgavatam . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, before that. Pariniṣṭhito 'pi . The word begins with pariniṣṭhito . Idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma . No? Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. *Harikeśa: "At the end of the Dvāpara*-yuga, I studied this great supplement of Vedic literature of the name Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which is equal to all the Vedas , from my father, Śrīla Dvaipāyana Vyāsadeva." Prabhupāda: Just see. And these rascals say Bopadeva. The speaker of *Bhāgavatam* , he says that, "I learned it from my father." His father is Vyāsadeva. And these rascals say Bopadeva. Just see. And they are posted in big post. With such nonsense knowledge, they are posted in big post. He does not know who is the author of Bhāgavata . Here it is distinctly said: "I learned it from my father." So his father is Vyāsadeva. You take this verse. If anyone says . . . so Śukadeva Gosvāmī is the speaker of Bhāgavata , he's admitting that "I've learned it from my father." And where the Bopadeva comes? Is that right? Devotees: Yes, right. Devotee: I was trying . . . that if I began to oppose him, then he would not take the book. Prabhupāda: No, no. Scholarly. Just present that here is the . . . Śukadeva Gosvāmī is the speaker of *Bhāgavatam* . He says: "I learned it from my father." And who is his father? Bopadeva or Vyāsadeva? This is going on. That is finished . . . (indistinct) Mahāṁsa: Yes. Only two of them. One of them is here, but he was not at home, and the other one is out of station. So we'll get their signature when they come. Prabhupāda: Two of them have signed. *Mahāṁsa: Yes. Hariprasad and Shrinivas, they have both signed. And Shri Krishnan*-dyuta, he's here but he was not at home or something. Prabhupāda: He'll sign? Mahāṁsa: Yes. He will do whatever Hariprasad says, and Omkar Lal is the youngest brother, so he will also sign. Shall I keep this, or would you like to keep it here? Prabhupāda: As you like. You can keep it. Mahāṁsa: I'll lock it up. Prabhupāda: What is that? Group? (indistinct comments by devotees) (pause) Devotee: When I speak to some of these archaeologists that I meet, these professors, I ask them do they believe in the historical validity of this *Mahābhārata* and *Bhāgavatam* , and they say: "Personally, I believe, but officially we have to follow the archaeology, the techniques of measuring the time." So they have two faces: one for official life and one for personal life. Prabhupāda: Duplicity. Duplicity. Devotee: Yes. But there are some of them who are trying to prove also that the *Mahābhārata* was historical. Prabhupāda: *Mahābhārata* , that very name suggests history. "Bigger India." Mahā means bigger, and Bhārata means India. Can you answer? *Prabhaviṣṇu: There is one verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā , in Chapter Seven: *The meaning of this verse is that all living beings in the material world are born into delusion, overcome by the duality of desire and hate. So the fact is that the living entity, he desires to become great. Just like God is very great, so the living entity wants to imitate God, and therefore he comes in this material world, and he tries to become great and very powerful. This is desire. He tries to enjoy himself. And also icchā*-dveṣa : he becomes envious of the Lord. Most people . . . many people in the material world, they don't like to admit that God exists or that there is someone greater than themselves, because they think themselves to be the greatest. This is the disease of material life. But the cure for this disease that we have to accept . . . Prabhupāda: You know that? There are so many rascals, they say: "I'm God." You know that? That is the problem. If somebody says: "I am God," is it a fact? But he says like that. He's such a rascal. That is the point. Indian man: In spite of all falsehood, people accept him as God. Prabhupāda: Rascals. Indian man: Some people, they are . . . (indistinct) Vāsughoṣa: This man has come to read the Oriya book. He can read Oriya. So . . . he wanted someone to translate. They have come. Prabhupāda: Where is that Oriya book? Find out. Harikeśa: The one Gargamuni . . . Vāsughoṣa: Yes. Orissan language, Orissan language. Prabhupāda: (loud kirtan ) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Do you think that realization is good, if anyone realizes that he is God? Do you think he has actually realized anything? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is the proof? Everyone can say, "I am God," but where is the proof? He must act like God. If somebody says, "I am the richest man," simply this statement will do, or we must see how he is rich? (pause) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Give him. Devotee: You can read. Indian man: (indistinct) . . . Founder Śrī Śrīmad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm, (loud kirtana ). Indian man: (indistinct) . . . founder Śrī Śrīmad . . . (break) (end) (Meeting with Endowments Commissioner) Prabhupāda: But we are so . . . (aside) You can keep it there now. Keep. So we do not believe in these things, that there is Bhagavān, and Bhagavān comes, He has got a mission. Do you believe in these things? Frankly speaking, do you believe in these things? Mr. Raju: We do. We do believe. We feel it also in our body. Prabhupāda: Then you must act according to His mission. According to His mission. The mission is, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata ( BG 4.7). When we are engaged in glānir dharma , which is not dharma —cheating. Glānir , glānir . What is the glānir ? Mr. Raju: Hatred. Hatred. Prabhupāda: No. Glānir means which is abominable. Mr. Raju: Abominable. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). So what is that glānir ? Glānir means . . . dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , there is . . . Yamarāja said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam . Dharma cannot be manufactured by any man. (aside) You have got Sixth Canto? Harikeśa: Sixth Canto, Third Chapter, nineteenth verse. *Prabhupāda: Yes, find this verse. Yamarāja said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam . Even the demigods, they cannot manufacture dharma . Harikeśa: "Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great ṛṣis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras , ordinary human beings, Vidyādharas and Cāraṇas." *Prabhupāda: Nobody can. This is the principle. So when so many rascal dharma is introduced, that is dharmasya glāniḥ. So we must know this. Then we can understand what is the mission of Bhagavān. When rascals are introducing so*-called so many dharmas , that is dharmasya glāniḥ . Do you accept or not? Mr. Raju: Yes, we accept. *Prabhupāda: Therefore, Bhagavān concludes at the end, "You rascal, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66)." This is dharma . To surrender to the Lord, that is dharma . And in another place, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Without this, all cheating. If there is no bhakti , surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all these kind of dharmas , they're all cheating. Therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). On this, Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented, atra mokṣa vañca api nirastam . Dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41,CC Ādi 1.90). So according to this principle, they're all cheating. So-called religious system, artha , economic development, sense gratification. Just like that we have created so many social dharma : saṁsāra-dharma , gṛhastha-dharma , this dharma , that dharma . So in that way, they're all cheating. Therefore, our request is that yajñārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). In the Bālajī's temple, mostly poor cultivators, I have seen, they go. And they want to give something to the Lord. Yajñārthe . So the karmīs , they're advised, yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad arpaṇam , "Give Me." So these karmīs , somehow or other, by their great fortune they're giving something to the Lord. Yajñārthe . (someone enters) Aiye . That money should not be utilized for any other purpose. That is our mission. It must be utilized for the purpose to fulfill the mission of the Lord. Mission of the Lord is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66): how people can be trained up to give up all these nonsensical type of dharma, and how to become a devotee of Lord. For this purpose this money should be spent. Then it will be all right. Mr. Raju: Mostly it is utilized for that. Almost completely. Only one or two is mere, what is called, charity. The industry . . . there's been a wrong impression that we are working directly with industry. *Prabhupāda: No, no. That is . . . it should be utilized simply for the purpose of awakening the devotional, what is called, inspiration. For no other purpose. Just like in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said, nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Kṛṣṇa-bhakti , nitya-siddha . This is our natural. Just like these Europeans and Americans, they have become kṛṣṇa-bhaktas . So what business they had to do with Kṛṣṇa? They're coming from Christian family, Jewish families, or some of them Muhammadan family. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṇa? They haven't got to do anything with Kṛṣṇa. So how they have become a kṛṣṇa-bhakta ? Even the . . . just like he is coming from Parsi family, he is coming from Jewish family, he is coming from Christian family, he is coming from Europe, he is coming from America. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṇa? We Indians, or Hindus, we may have some concern with Kṛṣṇa, but what they have got? They haven't got anything to do with Kṛṣṇa. Now you pay them one lakh of rupees and ask them, "You become again Christian. You become again Parsi." Just see. Make them again Christian. Practical. These are young boys. You ask them that, "I'll give you good girl, I'll give you good money. You give up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, come here." Ask them. Make a test. They'll refuse, they'll kick out. How they have become? Therefore it is a fact, as it is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta , kṛṣṇa-bhakti nitya-siddha . Everyone has got kṛṣṇa-bhakti eternally. It is not artificial. They have not become kṛṣṇa-bhakta artificially. It is the eternal link that has been awakened. Mr. Raju: There's no doubt of that, Swāmījī. Let us say there are hundred leprosy patients. There are one thousand orphans. We put them there, give them food, and make them pray to Kṛṣṇa . . . *Prabhupāda: Well, you are . . . they are mistaken. But if you have to awaken kṛṣṇa*-bhakti , why you go to the lepers? Mr. Raju: No, they have come here. They are all there in the temple. They are not allowing others to pray properly. They are all, one thousand . . . in the past . . . *Prabhupāda: We have no objection, that . . . because our principle is kṛṣṇa*-bhakti nitya-siddha . So kṛṣṇa-bhakti is there in everyone. So leper or non-leper. Just like our Vivekananda, he took up daridra-nārāyaṇa . This is an absurd proposition. Nārāyaṇa is never daridra . But if you put this argument, that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, so if Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, why you take up only daridra-nārāyaṇa ? Why not dhanī-nārāyaṇa also? If you have got so broad vision that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, therefore we see everyone, so why you particularly take the daridra-nārāyaṇa ? Similarly, kṛṣṇa-bhakti is everywhere. It is in the leper or non-leper. So why should we take particularly the leper? So that is outwardly a social service, that they are taking care of the leper. So if that vision, it will not be right. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti even requires . . . even a karmī like big, big owner of factories, he's more diseased than the leper, because he has no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . So we have to take care of the leper and the richest man also if he has no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Mr. Raju: That also. That also. Prabhupāda: No, therefore we should not make any distinction that only the lepers will be taken care of. Mr. Raju: Again, let's say a rich man or somebody comes, prays . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone is more than leper. Mr. Raju: He takes prasāda in the temple, he goes. But this man is not allowed. He can't come. Therefore God goes to him. *Prabhupāda: We have to take . . . you cannot manufacture where God goes. You should have to take lesson from God. That is one thing. If we manufacture ideas, that will never be successful. That will never be successful. Don't manufacture ideas. If you want to be servant of God, you must take instruction from God. That is wanted. You cannot manufacture idea, that "God wants this." So first of all try to understand what is God's mission. God's mission is, it is clearly said, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). So, more or less, everyone is entangled with this glānir dharma . They have manufactured. Just like the demigod worship. This is a glānir dharma . Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). And Kṛṣṇa clearly says, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). *So if you want to utilize, people are giving in good faith, Bālajī, Kṛṣṇa, their hard*-earned money, whatever we are giving something. Yajña , that is wanted. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). That money should not be utilized for any other purpose except yajña . First of all, you have to decide like that. Then we can give you direction. First of all, you have to decide that this money, not a single farthing should be spent for any other purpose than performing yajña . Then we can give you right direction. And if you have plan to utilize this money for any other purpose, that is not Kṛṣṇa's mission; *that is your mission. So first of all you have to decide whether you are going to execute Kṛṣṇa's mission or your mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission is very clearly defined. It is there. Everything is declared there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . We can do it very nicely. But if you want to do any other mission, then you can do. You are government, you are in power, you can do that. But that will not be pleasing to Kṛṣṇa. He has got a mission. That is stated: dharmasya glānir bhavati . So any dharma , so-called dharma , which does not awaken their Kṛṣṇa consciousness is glāniḥ . Kṛṣṇa does not want that. If you're against the will of Kṛṣṇa, against the mission of Kṛṣṇa, if you want to do something, you can do it. People are doing so many things. That is also mentioned by Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: Iti te jñānam . . . (BG 18.63). Prabhupāda: No. That one verse is that one does not . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is that, "Surrender unto Me." Now, who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa? That is stated by Kṛṣṇa: *Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he must be grouped either duṣkṛtina , mūḍha , narādhama , māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna , āsuraṁ bhāvam . We do that. Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he must be grouped among them. And for them, what is their . . . tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram . (aside) Find out this verse, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān . . . if anyone is envious of Kṛṣṇa, then what is his punishment? Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is their punishment. Harikeśa: "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence into various demoniac species of life." Prabhupāda: And next verse? Harikeśa: "Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence." Prabhupāda: So this is my request, that our money . . . there is nothing "Our money", everything Kṛṣṇa's. But we are thinking, because we are asuric. So asuras think like that. Just like Kaṁsa, Hiraṇyakaśipu: "Hah!" Rāvaṇa: "Hah! What is Rāma?" That is asura's. They think like that, and that is asuric. But otherwise, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore yajña is advised. The sooner you hand over Kṛṣṇa's property to Kṛṣṇa, it is good for you. *Mr. Raju: Swāmījī, we are karma*-yogīs . We start the day with surrendering to God and asking Him to show us the way. Beyond that, I don't know what our duty . . . *Prabhupāda: But a karma*-yogī , why you should take Kṛṣṇa's money for karma? Mr. Raju: For what? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . that is for . . . Prabhupāda: That is the . . . Mr. Raju: It is not used. As you have correctly said, that way only it is used. There may be different . . . *Prabhupāda: No, the first thing is that if you decide that Kṛṣṇa's money should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's mission, so Kṛṣṇa's mission is this, that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). You have to bring them to the sense of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And there is a process. You cannot manufacture that process. You have to take the process from Kṛṣṇa. That Kṛṣṇa says: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. You have to teach people how he can think of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā . Then the mission is there. That is Kṛṣṇa also. Kṛṣṇa says: *You have to teach them like that. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām , as we are doing. We're always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But if you manufacture in your own way, that you can do. Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ na sa siddhim avāpnoti (BG 16.23). That will never be successful. If you have to execute the mission of Kṛṣṇa, you have to take instruction of Kṛṣṇa and do it rigidly. Then you'll be successful. Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is that one must know Kṛṣṇa and surrender to Him. This is mission. Kṛṣṇa does not say that by karma-yoga one can understand Him. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). You cannot say, "We are karma-yogīs ." Karma-yogī means the third class. He's karmī , and little mixed up with bhakti . Adulterated. Jñāna-yogī , he's not a bhakta . He's jñānī , but just to bring him gradually, a little bhakti . You see? And real bhakti is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). When it will be tintless of any karma and jñāna , then it is pure bhakti . That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Not mixed up with jñāna , karma , yoga . Otherwise, how Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti ? He could have said, "Any way," as these rascals say, "Any way go, you will get Kṛṣṇa." That Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ (BG 7.3). Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). So that tattva , bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). So we have to take this. You manufacture in your own way, and still you carry out the mission of Kṛṣṇa—that is contradiction. You have to take the lesson from Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be successful. Karma-yoga is for the third class. They are addicted to karma , a little bhakti , that's all. That is not pure. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). When there is not a tinge of karma and jñāna , that is pure bhakti . That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. *So everything is there, direction is there. We can guide you—not according to our whims, but according to śāstra . And if you agree to accept, then we can also cooperate with you. But if you manufacture your own way, then how we can possibly . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is this: yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). Except kṛṣṇa*-bhakti , bhaktyā , everything is glāniḥ . All glāniḥ . And that can be awakened, kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Just like these boys are doing. That is enunciated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta : nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa—everyone has kṛṣṇa-bhakti . You have to awaken simply. Nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema sādhya kabhu naya (CC Madhya 22.107). It is not artificial. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya . If the hearing about Kṛṣṇa is pure . . . that is also confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : *So we have to follow this formula. This is śāstra*-viddhi : one step to another. And if you don't care for the śāstra-viddhi , we can do that, but na siddhiṁ na avāpnoti : it will never be successful. It will be a show, big show, but there will be no siddhi . (pause) *Prabhupāda: If you want to do according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, our cent percent cooperation will be there. We'll not touch a single farthing of your money, but we can give you direction, "Spend it like that." And government men, you can see that we are not touching a single farthing of your money, but it is being spent for Kṛṣṇa's mission. That you can believe. It is the duty of the government men to see that people may not misrepresent. That is the Vedic injunction. Pṛthu Mahārāja was to see that a brāhmin is doing, acting like brāhmin , kṣatriya is doing like kṣatriya . So it is government's duty to see that Bālajī's money, Kṛṣṇa's money, is to the farthing spent for His mission. That is your duty. That is government's duty, that nothing is misused, nothing is misrepresented. But we know how to execute the mission of Kṛṣṇa. Everyone can know, because direction is there. It is not a secret thing. It is open secret. But you have to act. That requires faith. And so far my experience goes, the whole world will take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unfortunately, I am struggling single*-handed. And they are criticizing me in the Parliament. You have seen the recent article Blitz against me? What is that heading? "Ungodly face." I am doing ungodly? But they are advertising like that, trying to make me unpopular. The Māyāvādīs, they say that Bhaktivedanta Swami is ruining Hinduism. They are saying like that . . . Bolta hai ki nahi? . . . mayavadi saying like this? (Saying like this or not? . . . mayavadi is saying like this?) So I am being criticized in Parliament, I am criticized by the so-called jagad-gurus who have never seen what is jagat . And so on, so on. Mr. Raju: No, for a country suffering from multiplicity of gods, Hinduism, you are doing a very great service, asking them to concentrate on Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is . . . only God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Mr. Raju: How you are enlightening them, it is a very great service. No doubt about that actually. They don't know. And you are making the man, the human being, a servant of that God . . . (indistinct) . . . divinity. Prabhupāda: This is not my manufacture. Śāstra says, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . Mr. Raju: They have said so many things in the name of śāstra . They have said so many things in the name of śāstra . That you are making it one is very good. *Prabhupāda: No, those who are approved śāstra is accepted by the ācāryas . Śāstra , which is accepted by the ācārya , that is śāstra . You cannot make. As you cannot manufacture religion, you cannot manufacture śāstras . Approved by the ācāryas . Ācāryopāsanam . Therefore Kṛṣṇa says also that you should know from the ācārya . Everyone, they are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā with the purpose of killing Kṛṣṇa. Everyone. The politicians, the scholars, the rascals and everyone. The main purpose is how to kill Kṛṣṇa. In Bombay I have got a very big friend, you know him. I do not wish to disclose his name. He has set aside ten lakhs of rupees from preaching Gītā . But he wants Gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Rāma without Sītā. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā; Rāma will remain alone. So take away Gītā and cut Kṛṣṇa. But I cannot make any compromise. I shall . . . my life is ended; *now I'm eighty*-one. I do not know . . . but so long I shall live, I shall make no compromise, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svaya m (SB 1.3.28). Dṛḍha-vrata . And that is a fact. Why shall I mislead people? They are searching after God, what is God. Here is God. Why don't you take it? See His activities. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47). Tally with the formula of God, you see Kṛṣṇa is there. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . So whatever teeny effort I have got, I shall try to establish temples of Kṛṣṇa all over the world with my teeny income. I have got book sales. Kṛṣṇa has given me very good chance. It is beyond any dream. We are selling books sixty thousand dollars daily. Indian man (1): Six lakhs about. Mahāṁsa: Thirty thousand dollars. Indian man (1): Sixty thousand dollars. Mahāṁsa: Yes, daily. Prabhupāda: And we are known the topmost publisher of religious and philosophical books in the world. And we are approved . . . our books are approved by the greatest learned scholars of all universities. Because they are seeing a new light. No hodgepodge philosophy. India also, wherever we are going. Now he has come . . . within how many days? Within a month. Prabhaviṣṇu: Yes, one month, in Uttar Pradesh . . . Prabhupāda: He has got seventy standing orders. Our books are, say, eighty. So eighty books, say, average five dollars. So eighty books, five dollars means . . . Prabhaviṣṇu: Four hundred dollars. Prabhupāda: Four hundred dollars. Such seventy orders. Mr. Raju: Four hundred by seventy. Prabhupāda: He has secured order in one month, seventy orders. In one place. Standing orders. "Whatever is published, give us, and then others, when they will be published, send also." They have not seen even the books. Tirupati Balajī Temple manager: This is practical pracāra , giving of books. Prabhupāda: No librarian, no university, no scholar, no professor is refusing. As soon as we go, "Oh, yes, bring. We shall take." So I am bringing money from the foreign countries by my selling books, and they are criticizing me that I am CIA. (laughter) Just see the fun. And there is nobody to give me protection. Tirupati Balajī Temple manager: Not Lord giving protection? (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, Lord giving, giving. That I am confident. Because they are envious, "How Bhaktivedanta Swami is getting so much money? He's paying crores and crores. There must be some political . . ." As they are getting from Russia. But actually, I am selling. I am working night, writing these books, and these boys are helping me to sell it. I am getting enough money to spend it. What is my fault? For Kṛṣṇa's sake we have sacrificed everything, our life and everything, and Kṛṣṇa is giving us money and we are spending it, and they are criticizing in the Parliament. This is my misfortune. I don't take it as misfortune. Because asuras are always there. Even Kṛṣṇa's time. Mr. Raju: They are criticizing, but not . . . Prabhupāda: Because we are getting so much money. For this temple we have to spend . . . ten lakhs ? Mahāṁsa: Twelve lakhs . Prabhupāda: Twelve lakhs . So by selling my books. And I have sent him more than four lakhs , five lakhs from foreign countries. This is my fault. Similarly, in Bombay we are spending every month seven lakhs regularly. That is coming from foreign countries. And they are thinking that I'm taking bribe and acting as CIA. Just see. And CIA have become Vaiṣṇavas with long śikhā and giving up all facilities of life, and they are dancing with the CIA. People have no common sense that CIA agent could stay in a nice hotel and enjoy life. Why so much vairāgya ? Even my Godbrothers said that American government has given me two crores of rupees. Now we are planning to have a temple in Māyāpur where . . . what is, what is the economic estimates, where we shall spend how much money monthly? Harikeśa: Two hundred thousand dollars monthly. Prabhupāda: Two hundred thousand dollars monthly. Mr. Raju: Navadwip, mayapur me. (In Navadwip, Māyāpur.) Prabhupāda: Two hundred thousand. (break) Nobody will be able to check it. He'll go on. That is Kṛṣṇa. Here is Dictaphone. I work at night. I get up at half past twelve, one, and I write books. And daytime I'm engaged. And daily either ten page, twenty page written, that is sent to Los Angeles. You have seen our Press? And they take care. How our books printed, have you got that film? Mahāṁsa: I have it in 16mm. Yes. Prabhupāda: Why don't you show? Mahāṁsa: Just now? Prabhupāda: Yes. It will take little . . . Hari-śauri: (indistinct background conversation about projectors) Mahāṁsa: I don't have a Fairchild. I have it in 16mm film. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But the Press . . . Mahāṁsa: Yes, the Press film. Prabhupāda: You can show, they'll be . . . (background talk about projectors) How in the American industrial process we are printing our books. I made the Book Trust, sixty thousand dollars they are selling. So as author, I could have derived from them at least six thousand, ten percent minimum. Six thousand dollars per day. Six thousand dollars means sixty thousand rupees. That could have been my daily income. But I take little khicuṛi from them, that's all. (Harikeśa laughing) Indian man: Two crores per year, it comes to . . . Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . he was last month at Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: Our farming projects, very successful. Now here, Badrukajī is also giving us some land. Aiye . . . bathiye. (Come . . . sit.) (someone arrives) (background conversation) Hari-śauri: Vāsughoṣa. Prabhupāda: So we have got big program. Any amount of money you bring to us, we shall spend it immediately. (background conversation) (pause) (loud kīrtana in background) (break) *Prabhupāda: There is a logic, andha*-paṅgu-nyāya . One man is blind, another man is lame. Both are useless. But when they combined together the lame man was taken by the blind man. So the lame man has got eyes, he was giving direction: "Go this way." So both their work was done. So I say that India is lame and America is blind. Let us combine together. Then we can give a great culture for the benefit of the whole human society. India has no money—lame. And they have got money, but they have no knowledge. So let us combine together. This is logic. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya . *So by this cooperation they have . . . when I was in India I published three parts of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam with great difficulty. And now, since I have gone there, I am publishing every month a book. So on account of their cooperation we are able to publish so many books and organize the sale all over the world. But it is true that this culture is very much welcome all over the world. That is happening. That is real execution of the mission of Kṛṣṇa. Not to keep Kṛṣṇa within the boundaries of certain areas. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā . Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya (BG 14.4). He's the father of all living entities. They should know it. *We have got many other films also—how we are giving protection to the cows in different farms, how we are getting sumptuous milk. Two years ago there was an article in the Navabharat Times in Delhi, big article, one full page, first page. And the heading was that New Vṛndāvana Mein "aadyatmikta ki jamuna, aur doodh*-dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai."("In the Yamuna of spirituality, and a river of milk curd is flowing.") They gave this heading. And they gave all details how the use of the land. New Vrindavan in Virginia, we have got one thousand acre of land, and we are utilizing it. How they are living peacefully. So we want to make an example here with this six hundred acres of land, if it is given to us. Kṛṣṇa's formula is there: annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Produce sufficient quantity of anna . Everyone will be satisfied. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Kṛṣṇa never says by factory bhavanti bhūtāni . (laughter) *Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). This formula should be . . . that is Kṛṣṇa's mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission . . . what to speak of Kṛṣṇa's mission, Kṛṣṇa (loud kirtan). Krishna se hi juda hua hai. Bās. (It is connected to Kṛṣṇa.) Kṛṣṇa, to carry personally, bol rahe hain, (He is saying,) aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ye log kaha rahe hain Krishna Nirakara hai. (These people, they say Kṛṣṇa is formless.) Kṛṣṇa nirākāra . He's personally speaking. And Vyāsadeva writes, bhagavān uvāca . Propaganda phail raha hai Bhagvan kuch hai hi nahi. (Propaganda is spreading that there is no God.)) Tirupati Balajī Temple manager: (indistinct) Om purusham . . . mera dhayn karo, mera kaun hai mante hi nahi. ( Om purusham . . . meditate on Me—who is "Me"? They do not accept.) (break) (loud kirtan ) Prabhupāda: Idaṁ jñānam ākhyātam ? Harikeśa: Iti te jñānam ākhyātam . Prabhupāda: Iti te jñānam ākhyātam . . . Harikeśa: Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā . I'll get it. "Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully and then do what you wish to do." Prabhupāda: Just see. Kṛṣṇa has explained everything, all confidential. Now consider about it, think about it, and do whatever you like. Yathecchasi tathā. The liberty is there. Whatever you like, you can do. Kṛṣṇa will not force. He can force, but He does not interfere with little liberty. Then he becomes stone. Living entity has got little liberty because he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. When Arjuna was decided, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā , Kṛṣṇa gave him liberty, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). But he voluntarily accepted, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . Find out. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is real religion. Harikeśa: "Arjuna said: My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions." Prabhupāda: That's it. Yes, that is real . . . (indistinct) . . . that is translated in Bengali, *"Now I am prepared, naṣṭo mohaḥ, now my illusion is over." . . . (indistinct) . . . that is perfection. Kṛṣṇa gives you liberty, whatever you like you do. But when you come to the conclusion, "No, I shall do what you say," that is perfection. I can do whatever I like. That liberty is there. But if I accept Kṛṣṇa's instruction, that is bhakti . Find out that verse, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). Harikeśa: "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion." Prabhupāda: This is religion. They are mahātmās . Previous verse? Harikeśa: "O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible." Prabhupāda: That is mahātmā . This is mahātmā . Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha (BG 9.13). Find out this . . . *Harikeśa: Daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya*-manaso jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam . Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Harikeśa: "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare. (indistinct background conversation) Vāsughoṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This gentleman is the head of the Marwari community, Mr. Dinami. They only speak Hindi. They would like to speak to you, but they don't understand English. Prabhupāda: No, I can . . . main Hindi mein bol sakta hai. (I can speak in Hindi.) (loud kirtana ) (break) Indian man: Hindi mein bol sakta hai maharaj? (Can Mahārāja speak in Hindi?) Indian man: Maharaj ji Hindi mein bolenge. (Mahārāja will speak in Hindi.) Prabhupāda: Unless one is enthused, he cannot preach. It is not possible. I went there when I was about seventy years old. I was sitting in Vṛndāvana. So I thought that "My Guru Mahārāja wanted me; *Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted me. So in this old age, let me try." . . . (indistinct) . . . but by Kṛṣṇa's grace it became successful. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam , dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam (BG 10.10). So there is good field for propagating this cult. See our young men, they are . . . Udhar sab young men sab sharab chhod raha hai . . . aur idhar sharab pine ko ghum raha hai. Udhar maans chhod raha hai aur idhar maans khane ko dhoond raha hai. Juhu me ek bada sa beef shop aur Hindu log beef khana suru kar diye hain. Ab kya raha gaya hai. (There, all young men are giving up alcohol . . . and here they are roaming to drink alcohol. There they are giving up eating meat and here they are searching to eat meat. In Juhu there is a big beef shop and even the Hindus have started to eat beef.) And I inquired some of the Hindu boys that, "Do you eat beef?" So, they began to smile, then they accepted. Jab maans khata hai to wo beef hua ye hua sab ek hai. (When they eat meat then whether it is beef or some meat, how does it matter.) (break) Indian man: . . . Mahatma Gandhi ne kaha tha ki . . . band karwa denge. (Mahatma Gandhi had said . . . will be closed.) Prabhupāda: Keh dene se kya. (Just by saying what will happen.) The platform is finished. Khali bolne se kya hoga? Bangladesh me bolta hai (Prabhupada says Bengali saying) . . . baans hota hai na ek green rahta usko aap bend kar sakte hai aur wo jab yellow ho jata hai . . . . tuchchch . . . toh toot jata hai. Pahle to kuch sikhaya nahi jata hai ab jab yellow ho gaya to usko kya sikhaye. Toot gaya. (Just by saying what will happen? In Bangladesh there is a saying (Bengali saying) bamboo is there when it is green it can be bent but when it becomes yellow then . . . tuchchch . . . then it breaks on bending. Initially nothing is taught, now when these people have become yellow like dry bamboo then what to teach. They break.) Now, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Yathecchasi , yathā icchasi tathā kuru . Mr. Raju: No, we are ready for that. There is actually no difference at all than what you are saying. As a matter of fact, government is . . . that's what I said, they have started their own society, the society of Kṛṣṇa bhaktas . . . (indistinct) . . . this country, other countries . . . this country itself, it is such a great service. Prabhupāda: Whole world will accept. Mr. Raju: This country itself is such a great service. It will require miracle. Prabhupāda: Iske liye . . . (For this . . .) We can cooperate. *Mr. Raju: Unless you are so single*-minded it can't be. Therefore you say there is no compromise. Otherwise, if there are compromises, there will be adjustments, it will lead to dilution. We understand. *Prabhupāda: Compromise has to do. These boys, when they come for initiation, no compromise: "You have to do this. No illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, even up to smoking cigarettes or drinking tea, no gambling. If you accept, then you become my disciple." They accept. No compromise. Mr. Raju: (indistinct) . . . great coordination, because you are establishing a center here. That will be very good. Prabhupāda: We are meant for this purpose, coordination, but if you take our . . . (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have taken prasādam? Mr. Raju: Yes, we did. (minister and temple manager leave) (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . and he is such a big man that he goes above the ācāryas . Ati*-buddhi . Ati-buddhi galaya dekhe . "If one is overintelligent, hang him." That is a Bengali saying. Ati-buddhi galaya dekhe . If one is unnecessarily over intelligent, just hang him with a rope in the neck. So he is ati-buddhi . Anyway, he was intelligent to purchase. Devotee: (aside) He thought that it would explain . . . (indistinct) . . . (background conversation) Prabhupāda: You have to read the subject matter. Even if he thinks that it is written by Bopadeva, such a great knowledge, one has to read. Such great knowledge is not possible by Bopadeva and unless he is incarnation of God, Vyāsadeva. It is said . . . (indistinct) . . . not this . . . (indistinct) Mahāṁsa: Which volume do you want, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Second volume. Varīyān eṣa . . . Harikeśa: Second Canto, Part One, verse one. Prabhupāda: Find out this. Varīyān eṣa . . . Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Find out that verse when he says: "I have heard it from my father." Pariniṣṭhito 'pi nairguṇya . The verse begins pariniṣṭhito 'pi nairguṇya . Harikeśa: Idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma ? Idaṁ bhāgavatam . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, before that. Pariniṣṭhito 'pi . The word begins with pariniṣṭhito . Idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma . No? Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. *Harikeśa: "At the end of the Dvāpara*-yuga, I studied this great supplement of Vedic literature of the name Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which is equal to all the Vedas , from my father, Śrīla Dvaipāyana Vyāsadeva." Prabhupāda: Just see. And these rascals say Bopadeva. The speaker of *Bhāgavatam* , he says that, "I learned it from my father." His father is Vyāsadeva. And these rascals say Bopadeva. Just see. And they are posted in big post. With such nonsense knowledge, they are posted in big post. He does not know who is the author of Bhāgavata . Here it is distinctly said: "I learned it from my father." So his father is Vyāsadeva. You take this verse. If anyone says . . . so Śukadeva Gosvāmī is the speaker of Bhāgavata , he's admitting that "I've learned it from my father." And where the Bopadeva comes? Is that right? Devotees: Yes, right. Devotee: I was trying . . . that if I began to oppose him, then he would not take the book. Prabhupāda: No, no. Scholarly. Just present that here is the . . . Śukadeva Gosvāmī is the speaker of *Bhāgavatam* . He says: "I learned it from my father." And who is his father? Bopadeva or Vyāsadeva? This is going on. That is finished . . . (indistinct) Mahāṁsa: Yes. Only two of them. One of them is here, but he was not at home, and the other one is out of station. So we'll get their signature when they come. Prabhupāda: Two of them have signed. *Mahāṁsa: Yes. Hariprasad and Shrinivas, they have both signed. And Shri Krishnan*-dyuta, he's here but he was not at home or something. Prabhupāda: He'll sign? Mahāṁsa: Yes. He will do whatever Hariprasad says, and Omkar Lal is the youngest brother, so he will also sign. Shall I keep this, or would you like to keep it here? Prabhupāda: As you like. You can keep it. Mahāṁsa: I'll lock it up. Prabhupāda: What is that? Group? (indistinct comments by devotees) (pause) Devotee: When I speak to some of these archaeologists that I meet, these professors, I ask them do they believe in the historical validity of this *Mahābhārata* and *Bhāgavatam* , and they say: "Personally, I believe, but officially we have to follow the archaeology, the techniques of measuring the time." So they have two faces: one for official life and one for personal life. Prabhupāda: Duplicity. Duplicity. Devotee: Yes. But there are some of them who are trying to prove also that the *Mahābhārata* was historical. Prabhupāda: *Mahābhārata* , that very name suggests history. "Bigger India." Mahā means bigger, and Bhārata means India. Can you answer? *Prabhaviṣṇu: There is one verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā , in Chapter Seven: *The meaning of this verse is that all living beings in the material world are born into delusion, overcome by the duality of desire and hate. So the fact is that the living entity, he desires to become great. Just like God is very great, so the living entity wants to imitate God, and therefore he comes in this material world, and he tries to become great and very powerful. This is desire. He tries to enjoy himself. And also icchā*-dveṣa : he becomes envious of the Lord. Most people . . . many people in the material world, they don't like to admit that God exists or that there is someone greater than themselves, because they think themselves to be the greatest. This is the disease of material life. But the cure for this disease that we have to accept . . . Prabhupāda: You know that? There are so many rascals, they say: "I'm God." You know that? That is the problem. If somebody says: "I am God," is it a fact? But he says like that. He's such a rascal. That is the point. Indian man: In spite of all falsehood, people accept him as God. Prabhupāda: Rascals. Indian man: Some people, they are . . . (indistinct) Vāsughoṣa: This man has come to read the Oriya book. He can read Oriya. So . . . he wanted someone to translate. They have come. Prabhupāda: Where is that Oriya book? Find out. Harikeśa: The one Gargamuni . . . Vāsughoṣa: Yes. Orissan language, Orissan language. Prabhupāda: (loud kirtan ) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Do you think that realization is good, if anyone realizes that he is God? Do you think he has actually realized anything? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is the proof? Everyone can say, "I am God," but where is the proof? He must act like God. If somebody says, "I am the richest man," simply this statement will do, or we must see how he is rich? (pause) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Give him. Devotee: You can read. Indian man: (indistinct) . . . Founder Śrī Śrīmad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm, (loud kirtana ). Indian man: (indistinct) . . . founder Śrī Śrīmad . . . (break) (end) Prabhupāda: I am sitting in this room. Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: And if by force you drag me away, I shall go to another room. Because I'll have another room. But because you have forcibly driven me away, you are criminal. Similarly, a living entity is ordained to live in a certain body for a certain period. If you kill, that is the interference with his staying there. You are criminal. Indian man: Yes, that is true. Prabhupāda: The soul is never killed. Never killed. But because you have forcibly driven away from that body, you become criminal. That is the philosophy. Indian man: Yes. Now, assuming . . . Prabhupāda: So you cannot do that. Indian man: Assuming that, everyone . . . Prabhupāda: Not assuming. This is the fact. (laughter) Indian man: No, assuming this end. I am putting a question. Every man who took part in the Kurukṣetra war, assuming that they are to be killed, they are destined to be killed. Then when they are killed, then Kṛṣṇa's argument is the soul . . . the body perishes but the soul is eternal. Prabhupāda: Soul is eternal . . . Indian man: . . . the soul. How you are reconciling it if you say that the . . . I mean what a man is different from Kṛṣṇa? Or ātmā is different from Paramātmā? If you say that, then how do you say that ātmā is eternal? And what is the fate of the ātmā ? Prabhupāda: No, ātmā is eternal. That is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Why don't you understand? Ātmā is eternal, God is eternal. But the difference is, next line, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . That one ātmā , God, He is maintaining others, and the others are being maintained. So how you can make equal the maintainer and the maintained? First of all, try to understand. Indian man: The question is, even if you take it, advaita philosophy also, there is a . . . the ātmā has to go and merge with the Paramātmā, but they didn't say that they're equal. I don't think even the advaita philosophy also . . . Prabhupāda: How they can be equal? Indian man: They cannot be, cannot be. Prabhupāda: Cannot be, yes. But they say equal. Indian man: No. They don't say that equal. Prabhupāda: Yes, he says like that. Indian devotee: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: He doesn't say anywhere, also nobody should say that. Indian devotee: The . . . (indistinct) . . . recently said that. Indian man: Don't take it from one sentence and try to enlarge it. Take it in the context. Indian devotee: They always say this. *Prabhupāda: I do not hear. You hear, he hears. If he says something else . . . that . . . this is therefore Caitanya's philosophy is acintya*-bhedābheda, that as ātmā , they're equal. Ātmā . But one is Paramātmā, because He is maintainer. Therefore . . . Indian man: Yes. All the creation, the world, it is one way out of that Paramātmā. Prabhupāda: Paramātmā. So therefore Paramātmā is the Supreme, and he is subordinate. So how the Supreme and subordinate can be equal? Indian man: No, they can never be equal. Never be equal and never and . . . no philosophy, even any branch of philosophy, does not say that a human being is equal to . . . Prabhupāda: No, their philosophy is, as you said, that this subordinate ātmā has forgotten that he is Paramātmā. Indian devotee: Yes, it is a main point. The seeker has forgotten that he is the sought. Indian man: He has forgotten means simply the potential that you have within you, you have to realize it and come closer to the Paramātmā. That is what it means . . . Prabhupāda: If you have got the potency to become Paramātmā, then how you became ātmā ? Indian devotee: Yes. Indian man: The potential to come near to Paramātmā. Prabhupāda: Near, that is one thing. You are near to me. That means we are not equal. You are a separate person, I am a separate person. Indian man: But even what has been told by him, he is Veda , Vedāntī , anybody, he doesn't come to ātmā is going to Paramātmā. He never says that. That mathematic equation . . . Indian devotee: They say that the ātmā has forgotten. They say that ātmā has come into the clutches of the māyā . When you get rid of the māyā you become Paramātmā. Indian man: That is not . . . you don't become Paramātmā. You become Paramātmā means that . . . you don't understand Paramātmā. Paramātmā is the Supreme, Supreme Soul. How can you become . . . Prabhupāda: Then you have to accept Paramātmā and ātmā different. Indian man: Different, that is true. *Prabhupāda: Then dvaita*-vāda. Where is advaita ? Indian man: Even dvaita does not, something different from advaitam , in this particular fundamental. But even advaitam does not say that ātmā is equal to Paramātmā. He never says that. You have māyā . Māyā will be field to you, and that you get rid of that māyā and you try to elevate your soul to the ātmā . And you come, go to the Paramātmā. *Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of spiritual lesson. Because that is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā . Every one of us, we are identifying with this body. Just like if somebody asks what you are, "I am Mr. Such-and-such, I am Indian, I am this, I am that." He is giving identification of the body. But that he is not. He's not this body. That is self-realization. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā , dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13)—two things— deha , this body, and asmin dehe , there is dehinaḥ , the owner of the body. That is the beginning of spiritual education. Because generally almost 99.9% people, they are thinking that "I am this body." Indian man: Well, that is true, that is . . . Prabhupāda: So that is another thing. Indian man: That attachment to the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That attachment or no attachment, he is different from the body. That is the first lesson of spiritual education, that one has to understand that he is not the body. That is Brahman realization. Indian man: No, after having realized that, we have to discipline ourselves so much. *Prabhupāda: Now that individual soul and the Supreme Soul, Paramātmā, they are also different. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā in the Second Chapter. Kṛṣṇa says: "My dear Arjuna, both you, Me and all these persons who are assembled here, we existed in the past, and we are existing now, and we shall continue to exist." So when they become one? Past, present and future. As they were different persons in the past, they are different persons now, and they will continue to remain different persons in the future. So when they become one? Indian man: Now we take it, small particles of water makes an ocean. Prabhupāda: That cannot be. Here Kṛṣṇa says that we shall remain like this in the future. Indian man: We can't get new to be . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is no amalgamation. It is clearly stated. Indian man: Even a drop of water, when you take it from the glass and put it on this one, another drop of water will come, and when you put it in medicine it won't come in water. Like that, ātmā , will it not merge with the Paramātmā? Prabhupāda: That water is matter, that is not spirit. But we are talking of spirit. You cannot bring matter. No, that analogy cannot be, because similarity. The water is different—matter. And you are talking of spirit souls. Here it is stated that the spirit soul individually, they'll never amalgamate. Acchedyo 'yam (BG 2.24). They cannot be separated . . . Indian man: Then what is the aim of bhakti if you are not going to merge with Paramātmā? *Prabhupāda: Bhakti . . . you try . . . you read carefully. Because you do not read, therefore . . . nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Nitya-yuktā upāsate (BG 9.14). When they come to the point of nitya , there also the upāsana is there. One nitya is worshiping the other nitya . That is nitya-yuktā upāsate . Indian man: Upāsana . . . upāsana means . . . Prabhupāda: Upāsana means upāsaka, upāsana and upāsita . Three things. As soon as you bring upāsana , there must be one person who is offering upāsana , and there is a process of upāsana , and the other person accepting upāsana . *Indian man: Then we're assuming that we're . . . actually the idea of śuddha*-bhakti is . . . *Prabhupāda: Bhakti means that. Nitya*-yuktā upāsana . That's all. Upāsana continues. Here they're upāsana . Here the devotees offering worship to the Deity, it is upāsana . And after being perfect, that upāsana will continue. It will never stop. Indian man: It will never stop, that's the fact. That is, when a man attains to . . . Prabhupāda: But Māyāvādī philosophy is that you offer upāsana now, and when you are perfect you become one. Indian man: Not one. I mean you merge with one. Not you become one. You merge with one. *Prabhupāda: Then there is no advaita*-vāda . There is dvaita-vāda . Two. There is no advaita-vāda . If you accept that you remain different, then there is no advaita . Indian man: We don't dare, do you see, ācchā , at a particular stage you like to merge with Him? Prabhupāda: Meeting, I am meeting you. That does not mean we have become one. You are meeting me, I am meeting you. So we are different. Indian man: What is ultimate object of that bhakti ? Prabhupāda: Ultimate object is you are offering this flower—this is bhakti . But you are different than me. Indian man: That's all right. That is all right. That bhakti , you can call it love, you can call it in various ways. Bhakti means surrender. Prabhupāda: Bhakti means the process by which Bhagavān and bhakta interact. That is bhakti . Indian man: That's all? He gains with that interaction? Prabhupāda: Interaction. That does not mean bhakta and Bhagavān become equal. *Indian man: Bhakta and Bhagavān may not be equal, but even the bhakti*-mārga , and we say the Bhagavān Himself declares that, "My bhakta is more superior to Me." Prabhupāda: That's all right. You say whatever you say, they remain two—different. Indian man: They may remain two . . . *Prabhupāda: Then that is not advaita*-vāda . That is dvaita-vāda . Two, two. Not one. That is dvaita-vāda . That is the point. Indian man: You mean to say eternally there is a soul and . . . this ātmā and Paramātmā will remain separate? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the . . . therefore it is said, nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Therefore the word is there, nitya-yuktā. Nitya means everlasting. Indian man: Yes. Everlasting. We will remain separate. Prabhupāda: Separate. And that is a fact. *Devotee: Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ (BG 15.7). *Prabhupāda: There are so many things. But here it is said, nitya*-yuktā upāsate . Even they come to the platform of nitya , where there is no birth and death—that is nitya, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20)—even that platform, Bhagavān remains different than the devotee who worships. Indian man: Eternally? *Prabhupāda: Eternally. That is nitya*-yuktā upāsate . There is no oneness. Otherwise why it is nitya-yuktā upāsate ? Nityo nityānām . The nityānām , plural number, and nitya , Bhagavān. So nitya-yuktā upāsate. *Indian man: Then if you take the kevala*-bhaktas , if you take the life of a bhakta . . . *Prabhupāda: If you take logic, it is stated there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . *Indian man: If you take bhakta*-vidyā , where so many sayings like Chakubhai and Namdev and all these people. If you take it . . . they had . . . they observed bhakti-mārga from the beginning. That is, they considered Kṛṣṇa . . . *Prabhupāda: No, they have considered that the bhakti*-mārga is a means to become one. Indian man: Means to become one. That's exactly what I mean. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their version. But that is not the version of Bhagavad*-gītā . *Indian man: Yes, it's the only way. Bhakti*-mārga is only mārga . It is only way to become one. *Prabhupāda: No. They never become one. Therefore nitya*-yuktā upāsate . Indian man: Then why should we say in our . . .? Prabhupāda: You can say anything, but that is not accepted. We have to accept Kṛṣṇa's statement. You can say anything. Indian man: Sir, I am not saying. That is what I am taught. Prabhupāda: At least, you are saying now. So, then which one you will take? As you are taught, or as Kṛṣṇa said it? Indian man: Merge with the Lord. Mirabhai, "Merge with the Lord," and Chakubhai, "Merge with the Lord." Prabhupāda: You bring thousands of examples. Indian man: Then what is that merging? Prabhupāda: No, no. You bring thousands of examples, but whether we have to accept them or Kṛṣṇa? Indian man: I mean the doubt I am having, I mean . . . *Prabhupāda: Then you, you now you just become out of doubt. That . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Seventh Chapter, mayy āsakta*-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ asaṁśayam (BG 7.1). Here is asaṁśayam . "No doubt." Why you are in doubt? You do not accept Kṛṣṇa. You accept somebody else. Indian man: Not a question of accepting. We are all ignorant people in the field of . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore you are in doubt. Indian man: We are . . . we have . . . *Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are in doubt. If you want to be doubtless, then you accept Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta*-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Āśrayaḥ . Not that equal footing. Mad-āśrayaḥ. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu (BG 7.1). So you have to accept Kṛṣṇa, if you become . . . if you want to become doubtless. Otherwise, you'll be put into doubt. Here it is said asaṁśayam , "Without any doubt." That is the process. And if you want to remain in doubt, you continue. You accept this man, that man, that man, that man, that man. That is your business. But if you want to be doubtless, then you have to accept Kṛṣṇa. *Indian man: So we say in the bhakti*-mārga for eternally the Paramātmā and ātmā will remain separate, separate entities. Prabhupāda: And that is always. You cannot become one with Him. Indian man: Then in what levels the man got to remain in a separate entity? Always in the same as bhakta ? *Prabhupāda: Nitya*-yuktā upāsate . The one is worshipable, another is worshiper. That's all. Nitya-yuktā upāsate. Upāsate means the worshipable is there and the worshiper is there. Then the question of upāsana . If they become one, then where is upāsana ? Indian man: Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling. At one stage . . . Prabhupāda: But that is not the fact. Here it is said upāsate. Upāsate means he worships. So if he loses his existence, then where is worship? Indian man: No. Ātman's got to go on practicing and try to become pure and purer and pure, at one stage. Prabhupāda: Without being pure you cannot go there. There is no question of upāsana . *Unless you are completely free from all sinful reaction, there is no upāsana . That is practice. That is practice. Just like neophyte, one is practicing. Just like one student is practicing. That is sa bhakta prakṛta smṛta . This is material. But when you are pakkā , practiced, then you go to the nitya*-dhāma . And your business is the same. Here it is practice and there it is permanent. That's all. Nitya-yuktā upāsate. The upāsana continues. Indian man: That is. Then our object is to get rid of the birth, birth and death, that we want to be eternal. From there you want to get rid of your birth and death. That is birth and death. *Prabhupāda: Birth and death you stop as soon as you give up this material body. Material body, the birth question comes of the material body. And death also material body. Therefore it is clearly said in the Bhagavad*-gītā , na jāyate na mriyate vā (BG 2.20). Indian man: Yes, you are trying to do sādhanas to see what . . . Prabhupāda: First of all, understand this, that the soul is never born, never dies. But we are seeing birth and death. What is that birth and death? It is of the body. But you are different from the body. Indian man: Yes, I am different. My soul is different, the ātmā different from the body. That is the foregone conclusion. Prabhupāda: Birth and death applies to the body, not to the soul. Indian man: Yes. That, your karmas , you enjoy and suffer according to your karma . Prabhupāda: That is body, all body. Indian man: That is body. How long you are going to do that? Prabhupāda: So long you are not a devotee. Indian man: I mean even if I am a devotee, I go on doing some sins . . . *Prabhupāda: You become devotee, then immediately transfer to the nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Indian man: Yes, I become a devotee, a true devotee . . . Prabhupāda: When you become a perfect devotee then you are transferred to the eternal world, and your engagement is upāsana eternally. Indian man: The eternal world. What is that eternal world? *Prabhupāda: That you do not know? You read, study. Have you studied Bhagavad*-gītā ? Do you know that there is an eternal world? There is an eternal world. Do you know that? Indian man: Our śāstras say eternal world . . . Prabhupāda: Then why do you . . .? Indian man: Man is eternal world by going and enjoying there in mokṣa there. Prabhupāda: So that is mokṣa . When you go to the eternal world, that is mokṣa . That is mokṣa . Indian man: Do you separate the eternal world from the Paramātmā? It is something, a world like our material world that we have got, physical world that we have got, is going to be out of, the eternal world? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). This word is used, sanātana. Sanātana means eternal. There is another world. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ. Find out this verse. Everything is there. Hari-śauri: We have to start packing up now. It's quarter past six. We have to leave in ten minutes. Prabhupāda: So now we have to stop. We have to leave. You just refer that verse. Vāsughoṣa: Prabhupāda: Na vinaśyati. The material world will be finished, and that will remain. Vāsughoṣa: "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." Prabhupāda: That is sanātana . Vāsughoṣa: "Kṛṣṇa's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahmā. Kṛṣṇa's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter." And the next verse? *Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. There is an eternal world, sanātana . That is never annihilated. So when you go to that sanātana*-dhāma , God is there, sanātana , and there you live eternally and go on rendering service to God. That is all. There is no question of oneness. The variety is there, but there the varieties are eternal; here the varieties are temporary. That is difference. Everything is explained. So thank you very much. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Prabhupāda: I am sitting in this room. Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: And if by force you drag me away, I shall go to another room. Because I'll have another room. But because you have forcibly driven me away, you are criminal. Similarly, a living entity is ordained to live in a certain body for a certain period. If you kill, that is the interference with his staying there. You are criminal. Indian man: Yes, that is true. Prabhupāda: The soul is never killed. Never killed. But because you have forcibly driven away from that body, you become criminal. That is the philosophy. Indian man: Yes. Now, assuming . . . Prabhupāda: So you cannot do that. Indian man: Assuming that, everyone . . . Prabhupāda: Not assuming. This is the fact. (laughter) Indian man: No, assuming this end. I am putting a question. Every man who took part in the Kurukṣetra war, assuming that they are to be killed, they are destined to be killed. Then when they are killed, then Kṛṣṇa's argument is the soul . . . the body perishes but the soul is eternal. Prabhupāda: Soul is eternal . . . Indian man: . . . the soul. How you are reconciling it if you say that the . . . I mean what a man is different from Kṛṣṇa? Or ātmā is different from Paramātmā? If you say that, then how do you say that ātmā is eternal? And what is the fate of the ātmā ? Prabhupāda: No, ātmā is eternal. That is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Why don't you understand? Ātmā is eternal, God is eternal. But the difference is, next line, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . That one ātmā , God, He is maintaining others, and the others are being maintained. So how you can make equal the maintainer and the maintained? First of all, try to understand. Indian man: The question is, even if you take it, advaita philosophy also, there is a . . . the ātmā has to go and merge with the Paramātmā, but they didn't say that they're equal. I don't think even the advaita philosophy also . . . Prabhupāda: How they can be equal? Indian man: They cannot be, cannot be. Prabhupāda: Cannot be, yes. But they say equal. Indian man: No. They don't say that equal. Prabhupāda: Yes, he says like that. Indian devotee: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: He doesn't say anywhere, also nobody should say that. Indian devotee: The . . . (indistinct) . . . recently said that. Indian man: Don't take it from one sentence and try to enlarge it. Take it in the context. Indian devotee: They always say this. *Prabhupāda: I do not hear. You hear, he hears. If he says something else . . . that . . . this is therefore Caitanya's philosophy is acintya*-bhedābheda, that as ātmā , they're equal. Ātmā . But one is Paramātmā, because He is maintainer. Therefore . . . Indian man: Yes. All the creation, the world, it is one way out of that Paramātmā. Prabhupāda: Paramātmā. So therefore Paramātmā is the Supreme, and he is subordinate. So how the Supreme and subordinate can be equal? Indian man: No, they can never be equal. Never be equal and never and . . . no philosophy, even any branch of philosophy, does not say that a human being is equal to . . . Prabhupāda: No, their philosophy is, as you said, that this subordinate ātmā has forgotten that he is Paramātmā. Indian devotee: Yes, it is a main point. The seeker has forgotten that he is the sought. Indian man: He has forgotten means simply the potential that you have within you, you have to realize it and come closer to the Paramātmā. That is what it means . . . Prabhupāda: If you have got the potency to become Paramātmā, then how you became ātmā ? Indian devotee: Yes. Indian man: The potential to come near to Paramātmā. Prabhupāda: Near, that is one thing. You are near to me. That means we are not equal. You are a separate person, I am a separate person. Indian man: But even what has been told by him, he is Veda , Vedāntī , anybody, he doesn't come to ātmā is going to Paramātmā. He never says that. That mathematic equation . . . Indian devotee: They say that the ātmā has forgotten. They say that ātmā has come into the clutches of the māyā . When you get rid of the māyā you become Paramātmā. Indian man: That is not . . . you don't become Paramātmā. You become Paramātmā means that . . . you don't understand Paramātmā. Paramātmā is the Supreme, Supreme Soul. How can you become . . . Prabhupāda: Then you have to accept Paramātmā and ātmā different. Indian man: Different, that is true. *Prabhupāda: Then dvaita*-vāda. Where is advaita ? Indian man: Even dvaita does not, something different from advaitam , in this particular fundamental. But even advaitam does not say that ātmā is equal to Paramātmā. He never says that. You have māyā . Māyā will be field to you, and that you get rid of that māyā and you try to elevate your soul to the ātmā . And you come, go to the Paramātmā. *Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of spiritual lesson. Because that is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā . Every one of us, we are identifying with this body. Just like if somebody asks what you are, "I am Mr. Such-and-such, I am Indian, I am this, I am that." He is giving identification of the body. But that he is not. He's not this body. That is self-realization. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā , dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13)—two things— deha , this body, and asmin dehe , there is dehinaḥ , the owner of the body. That is the beginning of spiritual education. Because generally almost 99.9% people, they are thinking that "I am this body." Indian man: Well, that is true, that is . . . Prabhupāda: So that is another thing. Indian man: That attachment to the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That attachment or no attachment, he is different from the body. That is the first lesson of spiritual education, that one has to understand that he is not the body. That is Brahman realization. Indian man: No, after having realized that, we have to discipline ourselves so much. *Prabhupāda: Now that individual soul and the Supreme Soul, Paramātmā, they are also different. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā in the Second Chapter. Kṛṣṇa says: "My dear Arjuna, both you, Me and all these persons who are assembled here, we existed in the past, and we are existing now, and we shall continue to exist." So when they become one? Past, present and future. As they were different persons in the past, they are different persons now, and they will continue to remain different persons in the future. So when they become one? Indian man: Now we take it, small particles of water makes an ocean. Prabhupāda: That cannot be. Here Kṛṣṇa says that we shall remain like this in the future. Indian man: We can't get new to be . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is no amalgamation. It is clearly stated. Indian man: Even a drop of water, when you take it from the glass and put it on this one, another drop of water will come, and when you put it in medicine it won't come in water. Like that, ātmā , will it not merge with the Paramātmā? Prabhupāda: That water is matter, that is not spirit. But we are talking of spirit. You cannot bring matter. No, that analogy cannot be, because similarity. The water is different—matter. And you are talking of spirit souls. Here it is stated that the spirit soul individually, they'll never amalgamate. Acchedyo 'yam (BG 2.24). They cannot be separated . . . Indian man: Then what is the aim of bhakti if you are not going to merge with Paramātmā? *Prabhupāda: Bhakti . . . you try . . . you read carefully. Because you do not read, therefore . . . nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Nitya-yuktā upāsate (BG 9.14). When they come to the point of nitya , there also the upāsana is there. One nitya is worshiping the other nitya . That is nitya-yuktā upāsate . Indian man: Upāsana . . . upāsana means . . . Prabhupāda: Upāsana means upāsaka, upāsana and upāsita . Three things. As soon as you bring upāsana , there must be one person who is offering upāsana , and there is a process of upāsana , and the other person accepting upāsana . *Indian man: Then we're assuming that we're . . . actually the idea of śuddha*-bhakti is . . . *Prabhupāda: Bhakti means that. Nitya*-yuktā upāsana . That's all. Upāsana continues. Here they're upāsana . Here the devotees offering worship to the Deity, it is upāsana . And after being perfect, that upāsana will continue. It will never stop. Indian man: It will never stop, that's the fact. That is, when a man attains to . . . Prabhupāda: But Māyāvādī philosophy is that you offer upāsana now, and when you are perfect you become one. Indian man: Not one. I mean you merge with one. Not you become one. You merge with one. *Prabhupāda: Then there is no advaita*-vāda . There is dvaita-vāda . Two. There is no advaita-vāda . If you accept that you remain different, then there is no advaita . Indian man: We don't dare, do you see, ācchā , at a particular stage you like to merge with Him? Prabhupāda: Meeting, I am meeting you. That does not mean we have become one. You are meeting me, I am meeting you. So we are different. Indian man: What is ultimate object of that bhakti ? Prabhupāda: Ultimate object is you are offering this flower—this is bhakti . But you are different than me. Indian man: That's all right. That is all right. That bhakti , you can call it love, you can call it in various ways. Bhakti means surrender. Prabhupāda: Bhakti means the process by which Bhagavān and bhakta interact. That is bhakti . Indian man: That's all? He gains with that interaction? Prabhupāda: Interaction. That does not mean bhakta and Bhagavān become equal. *Indian man: Bhakta and Bhagavān may not be equal, but even the bhakti*-mārga , and we say the Bhagavān Himself declares that, "My bhakta is more superior to Me." Prabhupāda: That's all right. You say whatever you say, they remain two—different. Indian man: They may remain two . . . *Prabhupāda: Then that is not advaita*-vāda . That is dvaita-vāda . Two, two. Not one. That is dvaita-vāda . That is the point. Indian man: You mean to say eternally there is a soul and . . . this ātmā and Paramātmā will remain separate? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the . . . therefore it is said, nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Therefore the word is there, nitya-yuktā. Nitya means everlasting. Indian man: Yes. Everlasting. We will remain separate. Prabhupāda: Separate. And that is a fact. *Devotee: Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ (BG 15.7). *Prabhupāda: There are so many things. But here it is said, nitya*-yuktā upāsate . Even they come to the platform of nitya , where there is no birth and death—that is nitya, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20)—even that platform, Bhagavān remains different than the devotee who worships. Indian man: Eternally? *Prabhupāda: Eternally. That is nitya*-yuktā upāsate . There is no oneness. Otherwise why it is nitya-yuktā upāsate ? Nityo nityānām . The nityānām , plural number, and nitya , Bhagavān. So nitya-yuktā upāsate. *Indian man: Then if you take the kevala*-bhaktas , if you take the life of a bhakta . . . *Prabhupāda: If you take logic, it is stated there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . *Indian man: If you take bhakta*-vidyā , where so many sayings like Chakubhai and Namdev and all these people. If you take it . . . they had . . . they observed bhakti-mārga from the beginning. That is, they considered Kṛṣṇa . . . *Prabhupāda: No, they have considered that the bhakti*-mārga is a means to become one. Indian man: Means to become one. That's exactly what I mean. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their version. But that is not the version of Bhagavad*-gītā . *Indian man: Yes, it's the only way. Bhakti*-mārga is only mārga . It is only way to become one. *Prabhupāda: No. They never become one. Therefore nitya*-yuktā upāsate . Indian man: Then why should we say in our . . .? Prabhupāda: You can say anything, but that is not accepted. We have to accept Kṛṣṇa's statement. You can say anything. Indian man: Sir, I am not saying. That is what I am taught. Prabhupāda: At least, you are saying now. So, then which one you will take? As you are taught, or as Kṛṣṇa said it? Indian man: Merge with the Lord. Mirabhai, "Merge with the Lord," and Chakubhai, "Merge with the Lord." Prabhupāda: You bring thousands of examples. Indian man: Then what is that merging? Prabhupāda: No, no. You bring thousands of examples, but whether we have to accept them or Kṛṣṇa? Indian man: I mean the doubt I am having, I mean . . . *Prabhupāda: Then you, you now you just become out of doubt. That . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Seventh Chapter, mayy āsakta*-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ asaṁśayam (BG 7.1). Here is asaṁśayam . "No doubt." Why you are in doubt? You do not accept Kṛṣṇa. You accept somebody else. Indian man: Not a question of accepting. We are all ignorant people in the field of . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore you are in doubt. Indian man: We are . . . we have . . . *Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are in doubt. If you want to be doubtless, then you accept Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta*-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Āśrayaḥ . Not that equal footing. Mad-āśrayaḥ. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu (BG 7.1). So you have to accept Kṛṣṇa, if you become . . . if you want to become doubtless. Otherwise, you'll be put into doubt. Here it is said asaṁśayam , "Without any doubt." That is the process. And if you want to remain in doubt, you continue. You accept this man, that man, that man, that man, that man. That is your business. But if you want to be doubtless, then you have to accept Kṛṣṇa. *Indian man: So we say in the bhakti*-mārga for eternally the Paramātmā and ātmā will remain separate, separate entities. Prabhupāda: And that is always. You cannot become one with Him. Indian man: Then in what levels the man got to remain in a separate entity? Always in the same as bhakta ? *Prabhupāda: Nitya*-yuktā upāsate . The one is worshipable, another is worshiper. That's all. Nitya-yuktā upāsate. Upāsate means the worshipable is there and the worshiper is there. Then the question of upāsana . If they become one, then where is upāsana ? Indian man: Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling. At one stage . . . Prabhupāda: But that is not the fact. Here it is said upāsate. Upāsate means he worships. So if he loses his existence, then where is worship? Indian man: No. Ātman's got to go on practicing and try to become pure and purer and pure, at one stage. Prabhupāda: Without being pure you cannot go there. There is no question of upāsana . *Unless you are completely free from all sinful reaction, there is no upāsana . That is practice. That is practice. Just like neophyte, one is practicing. Just like one student is practicing. That is sa bhakta prakṛta smṛta . This is material. But when you are pakkā , practiced, then you go to the nitya*-dhāma . And your business is the same. Here it is practice and there it is permanent. That's all. Nitya-yuktā upāsate. The upāsana continues. Indian man: That is. Then our object is to get rid of the birth, birth and death, that we want to be eternal. From there you want to get rid of your birth and death. That is birth and death. *Prabhupāda: Birth and death you stop as soon as you give up this material body. Material body, the birth question comes of the material body. And death also material body. Therefore it is clearly said in the Bhagavad*-gītā , na jāyate na mriyate vā (BG 2.20). Indian man: Yes, you are trying to do sādhanas to see what . . . Prabhupāda: First of all, understand this, that the soul is never born, never dies. But we are seeing birth and death. What is that birth and death? It is of the body. But you are different from the body. Indian man: Yes, I am different. My soul is different, the ātmā different from the body. That is the foregone conclusion. Prabhupāda: Birth and death applies to the body, not to the soul. Indian man: Yes. That, your karmas , you enjoy and suffer according to your karma . Prabhupāda: That is body, all body. Indian man: That is body. How long you are going to do that? Prabhupāda: So long you are not a devotee. Indian man: I mean even if I am a devotee, I go on doing some sins . . . *Prabhupāda: You become devotee, then immediately transfer to the nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Indian man: Yes, I become a devotee, a true devotee . . . Prabhupāda: When you become a perfect devotee then you are transferred to the eternal world, and your engagement is upāsana eternally. Indian man: The eternal world. What is that eternal world? *Prabhupāda: That you do not know? You read, study. Have you studied Bhagavad*-gītā ? Do you know that there is an eternal world? There is an eternal world. Do you know that? Indian man: Our śāstras say eternal world . . . Prabhupāda: Then why do you . . .? Indian man: Man is eternal world by going and enjoying there in mokṣa there. Prabhupāda: So that is mokṣa . When you go to the eternal world, that is mokṣa . That is mokṣa . Indian man: Do you separate the eternal world from the Paramātmā? It is something, a world like our material world that we have got, physical world that we have got, is going to be out of, the eternal world? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). This word is used, sanātana. Sanātana means eternal. There is another world. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ. Find out this verse. Everything is there. Hari-śauri: We have to start packing up now. It's quarter past six. We have to leave in ten minutes. Prabhupāda: So now we have to stop. We have to leave. You just refer that verse. Vāsughoṣa: Prabhupāda: Na vinaśyati. The material world will be finished, and that will remain. Vāsughoṣa: "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." Prabhupāda: That is sanātana . Vāsughoṣa: "Kṛṣṇa's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahmā. Kṛṣṇa's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter." And the next verse? *Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. There is an eternal world, sanātana . That is never annihilated. So when you go to that sanātana*-dhāma , God is there, sanātana , and there you live eternally and go on rendering service to God. That is all. There is no question of oneness. The variety is there, but there the varieties are eternal; here the varieties are temporary. That is difference. Everything is explained. So thank you very much. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (Meeting With Member of Parliament, Mr. Krishna Modi) *Prabhupāda: Tabhiyat theek hai? hamara tabiyat kuch pheeka*-pheeka hai. (Are you in good health? My health is not doing so good.) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is always traveling. Prabhupāda: Thoda time ka jaroorat hai. (A little bit of time is needed.) Krishna Modi: It is needed. *Prabhupāda: This is the only hope. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet ( SB 12.3.51). Throughout the whole world, the situation is not very good. Now there is drought, no water. All over the world. I have seen whole Europe, all the fields are now gray, no green. Idhar to khoob pani baras raha hai. (Here it is raining very heavily.) Krishna Modi: India this year is very good rains. Beyond expectation. And also this crop is very good. *Prabhupāda: Barasat hone se crop hoga. (Only if it rains there will be crops.) Parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ. Nature's work is there. As soon as there is sufficient rain you get sufficient crops. And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). Kali-yuga, this age, the yajña is hari-kīrtana . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ . Ek mandir me sankirtan ka ayojan kijiye sab theek ho jayega. (In one temple organize congregational chanting, everything will be alright.) Krishna Modi: Who can do this thing? Prabhupāda: We can do that. We can do that. Provided there is cooperation. Krishna Modi: Oh, that is good. Prabhupāda: Now . . . Krishna Modi: They have not given your phone number of this place. I was not in idea that they had shifted you. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Tejiyas did not tell you. Krishna Modi: And therefore I have phoned and phoned and phoned, but I was not getting anything. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When was this? Long time ago? Krishna Modi: No. Yesterday. Because yesterday I was to come here. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You got called by . . . *Krishna Modi: But I was called by Mr. Home Minister Brahmānanda Reddy, and he told me that you have come here . . . (indistinct) . . . so that I want to know something . . . (indistinct) . . . asking me. One question was put up in Rājya*-sabhā, and he's . . . (indistinct) . . . there. I told him that he's . . . (indistinct) . . . There are some gentlemen of, er . . . Labor Minister and from . . . (indistinct) . . . gentleman and they have come from Andhra Pradesh. They were also there. One MP, Mr. D. D. Desai, he is also there. Some . . . (indistinct) . . . members. And there was . . . (indistinct) . . . and we have discussed at length. And we have told them, and there is no restriction . . . (indistinct) . . . the size and to everybody. And you see then it is in Indian history, it is first time that something has been done. All people are saying that they have done in America, they have done in so many centers all over the world, and then we are, something like that, it is shameful. Prabhupāda: It is Indian culture. Krishna Modi: Indian culture. Then he told me that you are perfectly right, and I am also an Indian and I have that right also, that we have no knowledge about all these things. If you have something, then you please let us know so that we may inquire the particular matter. And I told him that you inquire first, and then why I should have to inquire? Why I have? There is no matter, no anything, then how can I give the order for inquiry? On what basis? Let the something come, then I will . . . and I told them that why you are harassing? Visa, and visa, all these things, this passport, and in all these things, and you say that you go over and . . . why you are? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Visa. Krishna Modi: Visa. Why you are harassing? I will check up. And you write me a letter so that I may call the Consulate man on the visas so that I may discuss it. And at length there was a discussion, and that was refuted because there are two, three gentlemen, personalities from Andhra, they also supported in a very . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda addressed the whole Andhra Pradesh cabinet in Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: I was invited by the . . . Krishna Modi: Yes, they have told, they have told. And they have told also that . . . no, no, no, no, no, no. For . . . (indistinct) . . . they are the . . . (indistinct) . . . and we must respect them. And if anybody says something against them, and we must be very careful about that. And we cannot object to it. Then all we have got the same opinion . . . (indistinct) . . . and we have to . . . (indistinct) . . . this is the thing. Now about this thing . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Blitz article. Krishna Modi: . . . Blitz article. You should not reply. I advised that. You should not reply to all these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We gave the reply to . . . Krishna Modi: To me. And . . . *Prabhupāda: Aaj barah baje tak humlog ka upwas hai Radharani ka janmdin. (Today we are fasting until 12 o'clock on the occasion of Radharani's birthday.) We shall take after twelve (half*-day fast for Rādhāṣṭamī), later prasādam . Krishna Modi: If Gurudeva is hungry. How I can take before? Prabhupāda: No, you can take. You can take. Krishna Modi: You give something so that we . . . Prabhupāda: No. You give the whole thing to him . . . (indistinct) . . . and you have brought . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: I will arrange. Prabhupāda: Isko to lijiye. (Take this.) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sweet and kṣīra . Mahā*-prasādam . Nahi bad me lenge . . . (No, I will take afterwards . . .) Krishna Modi: You will reply and also the article, so that I am arranging to call all the members Parliament they are concerning with this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. They are some members, so you give me the list of bad members also. And then we will discuss all the matters, and you will . . . then we will give the articles to all the other papers from our side. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That will be very nice. Krishna Modi: Illustrated Weekly or News or Kalyani . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Illustrated Weekly is atheistic. Kushwant Singh, the editor, openly told us that "I don't believe in God." But Danyug is religious. Krishna Modi: You don't mind for that. We will give. And MPs will write and sign, then we . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We will have the . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: Find out . . . (indistinct) . . . and if you don't mind, I will give one suggestion more. In the Indian national interest, in this country's interest, that I should prepare some interested members to see all over the world, our, this . . . Prabhupāda: That will be very nice. Krishna Modi: So that . . . let them ticket hire and air freight and all that should be paid by them. Let them support. Prabhupāda: We have got branches in almost all important cities. Krishna Modi: Ten or fifteen. Let them see, so that they may be attracted and they may know each and every thing. Because here we know only by this thing. And then let us advertise about. Prabhupāda: You take this paper. Make a list of important cities. Now suppose if you go from Delhi. So you can go first to Paris, Geneva, Rome, then London, Amsterdam, Stockholm. Then from London I think . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: America. Prabhupāda: . . . New York, Boston, Montreal, Canada. Then you go to the western side—Los Angeles, San Francisco . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Vancouver. Prabhupāda: Vancouver. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Canada. Prabhupāda: Go further, Honolulu. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Then you could go to the Pacific, Australia. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New Zealand, Sydney. Prabhupāda: Australia, Sydney, Melbourne. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You can stop in Japan on the way. Krishna Modi: Let us have a program, make a program so that some . . . Prabhupāda: In every big city . . . Krishna Modi: Five or ten, they should go with all their expenses. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can stay at our temples, wherever they go. We will pick them up at the airport and bring them to the temple. *Krishna Modi: Pre*-arrangement should be done by our . . . this thing, this transport and fooding and lodging. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Local transport and . . . Krishna Modi: That is. So that I may fix up this program with the . . . Prabhupāda: Very good. Krishna Modi: . . . ten or fifteen people, so that they may go and see and all these things, and then they can also, if any question comes in the House, then they can oppose like anything. And they should submit their report also to the Prime Minister, Home Minister, to everybody, and to House also. And "This thing has been done, and we must be proud about that, that some . . ." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And to start out they can come to Vṛndāvana, which is right nearby. We can take them in a bus. We have a beautiful center in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. Krishna Modi: Yes, that because this is in India. Whenever they like, they will see it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So when can they organize this tour? How soon can it be organized? Krishna Modi: I'll ask them. I have an idea about that only. Because yesterday Mr. Brahmānanda Reddy already told me that, "Why not you people also stand up and say something about that? Why not you strengthen my hands? Because they press and press and they want something that I should say something. So if you people stand and then you say that, 'No, no, no, no. This is not the thing, and we have seen it and this and this and that and that.' And they will be . . ." That is his idea. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But the only people who are pressing charges are the Communists. They are just trying to . . . Krishna Modi: But they will do. That is their duty. Prabhupāda: They are atheists. Krishna Modi: Yes. So that why we should mind for that? That is there. You may say they're rākṣasa , or whatever you give the . . . (laughs) They will, always they will . . . Prabhupāda: Rākṣasas are always ready to kill God. That was the business of Rāvaṇa, that was the business of Kaṁsa, that was the business of Hiraṇyakaśipu. Krishna Modi: That is the same thing in Rāvaṇa and this . . . what is this, at that time. That is the same thing. They were happy, they were drink and all these things, and take on and all that time, and also harassing the devotees and . . . this is their duty. Indian man: Very . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: This is their duty. Therefore we should not mind for that. Let them do it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, even Russia, which is Communist, has admired Prabhupāda's books. I have written reviews—I was in Russia two months ago—from them, praising Prabhupāda's books very much. The leading professors there. Krishna Modi: Also, this is a part of nowadays—advertise and all these things, to know each and every thing. This is correct, that why you are worrying about all these things? People should know it about you. Why not hear it? This is perfectly right, I agree with you. But in the interest of other people who have faith in their religion . . . *Prabhupāda: No, our mission is that this Kṛṣṇa cult should be preached all over the world. That is the Bhagavad*-gītā decision. Find out this verse, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). (devotees look for verse) Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ . Eighteenth Chapter. Mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati . Hari-śauri: Is that the one, "There's no one more dear to me than . . ."? "There's no one more dear"? (to devotee) It's that one, "There's no one more dear." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in black Africa Prabhupāda has temples. Krishna Modi: Yes, that is good. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I say even in black Africa you have temples and devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Modi: You must circulate these all things. At least to our members. Prabhupāda: Read it. Lokanātha: Where is the verse? Prabhupāda: Why don't you print the opinions? Several times . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have printed. Prabhupāda: Where is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, I have it. We have printed the reviews in all, and the Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is Authorized. Prabhupāda: That is a simple thing, but all the reviews you should print them in book. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In a book form. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are hundreds of reviews. Krishna Modi: And you should also supply that to at least your interested members, interested Parliament only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll design a special booklet just for . . . Prabhupāda: I am asking you for so many months that you publish all these opinions. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have all the opinions, but we presently have them in sheets, not in a book form. We can put it in . . . Prabhupāda: Where is that? Where is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In the sheets? Oh, I have. Yes, I have most of the reviews, book reviews, with me. Prabhupāda: So, where is that? Bring it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Lokanātha: Read it? Translation: "For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me." Read the purport? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Lokanātha: Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: "Generally it is advised that Bhagavad*-gītā be discussed amongst the devotees only, for those who are not devotees will neither understand Kṛṣṇa nor Bhagavad-gītā . Those who do not accept Kṛṣṇa as He is and Bhagavad-gītā as it is should not try to explain Bhagavad-gītā whimsically and become offenders. Bhagavad-gītā should be explained to persons who are ready to accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is a subject matter for devotees only and not for philosophical speculators. Anyone, however, who tries sincerely to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is will advance in devotional activities and reach the pure devotional state of life. As a result of such pure devotion, he is sure to go back home, back to Godhead." Prabhupāda: What is this? Krishna Modi: That is Blitz. Prabhupāda: Oh. It is new? Hari-śauri: No, this is the first article. Krishna Modi: And second article also they have given? Hari-śauri: Yes, there's another one. Small. Krishna Modi: Blitz has given second article also? Hari-śauri: Yes, this last week's issue. This one's from two or three weeks ago. Devotee: It's two weeks ago, and last week . . . every week they . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: Where is that? Hari-śauri: You have that second article? Krishna Modi: That you are giving me today? Devotee: Gopala Krsna will have. Krishna Modi: Then he will give? Hari-śauri: (aside) Bring that second article. Prabhupāda: (reads newspaper headlines) Blitz . . . (indistinct) . . . "Ungodly face of Kṛṣṇa." Krishna Modi: They must say like that. (laughs) Devotee: This is for you. This is the second part of it. This is the second version. Krishna Modi: Of this. Devotee: Yes. Krishna Modi: They must say it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These books have been acclaimed by scholars all over the world. Krishna Modi: Not world, but you give us only Indian, Indian. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want only the Indian. Krishna Modi: Yes. Hari-śauri: This is second one. This is last week. Krishna Modi: This Andhra government also are Kṛṣṇa culture. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Such bogus. Prabhupāda: No, all the ministers of Andhra government, they came to our opening ceremony of the temple. Chief Minister spoke, and the Endowment Minister, Suraj Narayan, Raju. He's a nice devotee. Le aao, patti le aao, patti, kele ka patti hai? (Bring, bring the leaf . . . leaf, you have banana leaf?) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have Britannic Encyclopedia . . . Prabhupāda: Where is the opinion of the Russian? Krishna Modi: This is nothing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the way it is now. They're telling everyone that the Andhra government is . . . Krishna Modi: This is nothing, I think. I don't think it is anything wrong. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "Falls for Kṛṣṇa." Krishna Modi: That is another thing. But in article they have told nothing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They try to indirectly say . . . Krishna Modi: Ah, that is not . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they have nothing to prove . . . Krishna Modi: Prove them therefore . . . let them say like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Britannic Encyclopedia on the book of the year, they only have about a hundred selected personalities of the world, and they had a biography on Prabhupāda. Krishna Modi: Now I think we must systematically discuss this matter. Now I think it is decided . . . Prabhupāda: Ek sutli le aao, usko bandh de. (Bring a cord and tie this up.) Krishna Modi: It is now decided that you will give us all the Indian . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also should we give you what Indian professors have wrote? Like this Dr. Mahesh Mehta at the University of Windsor. Some of the Indian professors in America are very . . . Indians in India and Indians abroad. Krishna Modi: Yes, yes, yes. Indians, all Indians abroad. Abroad and also Communist countries if anybody. Give us any report. Russia, like that, you should give us in a file, make a file. And one thing is this. Now second is that when we are . . . Prabhupāda: This is a good book advertisement. (laughs) "Andhra government falls for Kṛṣṇa . . ." Krishna Modi: (laughs) No, he has not written anything. It is only it seems that . . . what can be said about . . . Prabhupāda: Whole government is supporting. Krishna Modi: Supporting. His meaning is this, that this Congress government is also doing all these mischiefs, so that they will . . . (laughs) That his main idea, and nothing else. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are also victimized by this Kṛṣṇa cult. Krishna Modi: One thing, then, you will give us all . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Reviews. Krishna Modi: . . . these recorded informations and all these . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And also we give you letters of leading ācāryas of India who are . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: No harm. And second thing, after three months, or at the time of session, you must call the MPs for a time only for taking prasāda . And they'll come. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Four or five? All of them? Krishna Modi: Four, five, and we will bring so many. So that let them . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have few movies on our movement. Like one is on our New Vṛndāvana farm, which shows how the Indian Vedic way of life is being adapted even in America on the farm. A movie on the Hare Kṛṣṇa people . . . Krishna Modi: You show them at that time. I will invite. Just say you have shown that in Tirupati's house, Hare Kṛṣṇa picture, that. And that is very impressive. Everybody appreciates that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have two more movies like that. Krishna Modi: Ah, then you must . . . I will arrange for that. In October we are meeting again after 25th. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When the session is over or almost over? *Krishna Modi: No, session is for today, that's all. Then it is over. Then at any time, you meet me. I will invite them. I will invite them. So that let them come—ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty*-five, thirty—let them come, and let them see, and let them . . . so that our number must be . . . and third, I will request you, make a program. I will make for this work. Let them see for one month program. And they will pay all their air freight, all these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And local transportation, local accommodation . . . Krishna Modi: Local accommodation and all, that should be managed, and nothing else. So that let them know each and every thing so that they may . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we will give the reply to Blitz to you? Krishna Modi: Yes, give me so that we will . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll give it to you this evening or leave it in your house. Krishna Modi: Okay. So before 5th I will give some good papers for that . . . giving our names also. In our name. These articles will be published in our name. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want us to give you an article on ISKCON? A brief article? Or . . . Krishna Modi: No, you don't give the article. You give only that like and this thing. Then we will give. In Hindi also and in English and Gujarati. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. That will be very nice. We will do that. *Krishna Modi: Agar unke paas pada hai to, sab bhuke*-vukhe hai to . . . ha communist . . . (If it is lying with him and everyone is hungry, then . . . yes, communist . . .) They don't want anything. They say that religious is a opium. So that what you are doing . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . they are not liking. If they are in power then they can do like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They did it in Russia. Krishna Modi: Because their theory is this: That this God and all these religious matters, this is a opium, and this is a kind of, you may say it that in the umbrella, religious in the name of . . . Prabhupāda: And what they have done, the Communists? Krishna Modi: They have not done anything. They should not do anything. It is not their duty. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, countries like Russia and China, what actual progress they have made? Krishna Modi: That is . . . they say like that, that "We are giving very good food to everybody, very good house, and living, and all their garment, education, medical free. We are giving the to common men . . . Prabhupāda: Medical . . . (indistinct) . . . is free. Free medical service, education . . . (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . and in the offices of big, big professors and all, it looks so much lower than in America or Canada. Krishna Modi: And in the comparison of India? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, in some respects I found them even lower than India. You'll be amazed . . . I visited all the leading libraries of Russia and Leningrad, Moscow University Library, all the big libraries. These libraries don't have any foreign exchange for ordering these books. They all want to order . . . they were begging me for free books. They said: "Why don't you give us a donation or exchange?" They have a book exchange that if they give their books then we give our books. Each library gets such little foreign exchange allowance to buy books from abroad. Prabhupāda: A taxi driver, he was asking some bakshish . Krishna Modi: In Russia. Prabhupāda: And I was talking with Professor Kotovsky. I asked him, "Please call for a taxi." So he said, "Swāmījī, it is Moscow." That means taxis are not available. Then he came down with me, and from the gate he showed me, "You take this shortcut when you go to your hotel." He could not call a taxi. Taxis are not available. He said: "Oh, it is Moscow." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But even the taxi drivers are very corrupt because of the shortage of taxis in Russia. You have to stand in line for taxis. Prabhupāda: Not taxi—bus. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even for taxis they have no taxi stands where you stand in line. So the taxi driver, he will park his car a little bit away. Prabhupāda: In my opinion it is a poor country. I think poorer than India. Krishna Modi: They have advertised only. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have good propaganda. Prabhupāda: And people are not happy. They are terrorized. *Krishna Modi: That is correct. That is correct. In Parliament we are telling that they are a first*-class prisoner. First-class prison. *Prabhupāda: Yes. First*-class prisoners. Not first-class; *third*-class. (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But I was told . . . because a lot of people in Russia who are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa also. It's very . . . there's a lot of corruption. Even the taxi drivers are corrupt. They'll park their taxi a bit away then come and approach you when you are standing in a line and say: "Okay, I'll take you there," but he'll tell you three times the price because everyone's waiting in such a long line for a taxi. Prabhupāda: Black market. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And one friend of ours told us what they do, because all the cars belong to the state, a lot of taxis, the people . . . Krishna Modi: The taxis are not independent. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they all belong to the state. But the driver, if he makes extra money, that goes in his pocket. And they have tipping also. *Prabhupāda: And they are always anxious to get extra. Buses are not very good. Third*-class buses. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And a lot of people want foreign exchange there. Like they'll ask . . . Krishna Modi: I'm going. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You're going to Russia? When? Krishna Modi: Yes, on 4th of October. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For how long? Krishna Modi: About fifteen days. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Visit. Krishna Modi: Budapest also. Because I am not Communist, and I'm not supporting also Communist. Therefore they have not told that, "He should not be sent there." Told me. But due to some . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You are going to just Budapest? That is Hungary. Krishna Modi: Hungary, yes. Hungary then Moscow. Then Moscow, Leningrad. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. Actually, I can give you a book from Leningrad if you wish to . . . this is from Moscow if you want to read it. It's all about Moscow. These are of course the good pictures of Moscow. You wish to have it? I can give it to you. This is on Moscow. I also have one on Leningrad. Krishna Modi: I will take after lunch. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a letter from the biggest library in Russia to Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. They have ordered some books, and they want the remaining books but they wanted free, in exchange. But they don't have the money. They want all of Prabhupāda's books but they don't have the money, so they want in exchange. This is from the biggest library in Russia. Krishna Modi: Our economy is something good at this time. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Indian economy . . . Krishna Modi: Indian economy is better. Income tax also they have got 67% more. Because they have reduced the rate. Prabhupāda: What is the percentage? Krishna Modi: Before that the percentage is 97, but last year, is 1976, in the March they have reduced the income tax from 97 to 65 . . . 67 and a half. Prabhupāda: In America it is 25. Krishna Modi: No, not 25, that is 45. But there is a system in West Germany that if you earn more, the tax will be less. That is their system. If we will earn . . . (indistinct) . . . then the tax percentage will be lower. Lower. Prabhupāda: That is good. That is good. The psychology is that if you earn more and government will tax more, then the impetus for earning more is cut. Krishna Modi: That is the point. Therefore they have got no black money. And here the system is different. If you will earn more, then you will have to pay more. It means people are not as interested in earning. Prabhupāda: Therefore what is the use of earning? What is the use of earning? Krishna Modi: That is true. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they are reducing the . . . Krishna Modi: Then I will get all the replies and papers today. And I will arrange each and everything before 5th or 6th of September. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You leave here the 6th? Krishna Modi: Oh, no. I will leave today or tomorrow. But I will come and I will arrange all these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When are you coming back here? Krishna Modi: I will come back on 5th. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifth. Okay. So I'll meet you on the 5th then. Krishna Modi: No, I will ring you here. You give me the telephone number. No, we don't mind for them. We will crush them for all these things. They can't speak like that. If they will discredit India, then . . . Prabhupāda: One thing, general thing, that I am writing books and selling in foreign countries, and I'm bringing the money here. It is for India's sake. Krishna Modi: But somebody should tell in the House all these things. Prabhupāda: You can tell. Krishna Modi: That is the thing only. That is the point of Mr. Brahmānanda Reddy also. Yesterday he told me . . . Prabhupāda: This is the important point, that my books are sold daily sixty thousand dollars all over the world. I have made the Trust so all the collections should be divided fifty percent for constructing temple and fifty percent for reprinting books. But we don't take a paisa profit. So far as an author, they are selling, sixty thousand dollars. And even if I would have taken ten percent royalty then it would have been six thousand dollars. Six thousand dollars means . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hundred and eighty thousand dollars a month. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Six thousand dollars means . . . say ten rupees. Krishna Modi: Sixty thousand per day. Prabhupāda: Sixty thousand per day. Actually. But we are all foregoing it for pushing on this movement, and if we bring that money and construct big, big temple or planetarium, what is the harm to India? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is bringing in more foreign exchange than even big business export concerns. Prabhupāda: I'm bringing regularly not less than ten lakhs of rupees per month. Krishna Modi: Sending to India. We must tell them all these things. Prabhupāda: You tell. Krishna Modi: That is the thing. This is the Brahmānanda Reddy told yesterday that some members must be briefed and they must tell something, so that my hands may be strengthened and so that I may . . . Prabhupāda: It is a great credit that I am selling my books and bringing ten lakhs of rupees from foreign country in India. Krishna Modi: That we will speak. And his mind is very clear. Brahmānanda Reddy, his mind is very clear, very clear, and he is appreciating. And he is in our favor hundred percent. Prabhupāda: Even not in our favor, I am working hard in foreign countries and bringing money to India. You should give us some credit. But instead of giving credit, I am being criticized in the Parliament. Krishna Modi: They are putting like this. They are putting this case like that, that foreign money is coming here to advertise the American embassies, like that. They are that talking like that. Prabhupāda: They may talk nonsense, but this is the fact. This is the fact. I have got my Book Trust Fund, and I've advised regularly to send eight lakhs of rupees per month. That is being spent in Bombay, in . . . I'm not collecting from here. Krishna Modi: That is correct. Prabhupāda: So if a Indian brings from foreign country by his labor eight lakhs of rupees per month, how much credit he should be given? He should be recognized. But instead of recognizing they are criticizing. Krishna Modi: This is their way, sir. That is their . . . they have to. They must do it. Because . . . Prabhupāda: So you kindly speak to the Parliament that, "This is the position, that he is working day and night . . ." Krishna Modi: Oh, no, I will speak very high about this. Let them . . . let the matter come. And if not come then we will take this matter. I will give the question. You please reply how much money is coming and in what way they are doing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Modi: I will ask the question. Prabhupāda: Prove that the American government is supplying some way. No. We are selling our books. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, when you go abroad you can even see how our income's coming, how our temples live. We are all over the world. Prabhupāda: That is our books are being printed. Krishna Modi: A very big thing it is. It is marvelous that you have done such a thing. It is proud of India that . . . *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New York devotees just got a twelve*-story building right in the center, and I know the local Hindus, they are trying to build a small temple since twenty years, and they're not succeeding. And right in the center of New York we have a twelve-story building. Now all the Hindus are coming to us. Prabhupāda: You have got that picture, New York temple? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Ratha*-yātrā picture? (discussion about who has pictures) Ratha-yātrā, the New York paper. Hari-śauri: In the new magazine. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New York Times, Newsweek. All the Indians came. They said, "East Meets West." Prabhupāda: Now who has converted so many of . . . this is one party. (referring to kīrtana going on in temple room) Hundreds of parties like this, they are engaged in kīrtana . India government is sending so many professional dancers by paying them from the cultural department, and what I am getting? Not a single farthing. And still I am bringing. Krishna Modi: Ah, Indian culture is . . . you . . . nobody has done these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like gurukula . *Prabhupāda: The Ratha*-yātrā festival, where is? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, the news of Ratha*-yātrā. Here. "New York Celebrates Festival of Chariots." Even at the U.N. conference we were there. They welcomed Vedic . . . we presented a Vedic reply to the U.N. conference. Prabhupāda: Wherever possible we are presenting Vedic culture, Indian culture. And I have no support from the government. Krishna Modi: Let us have. Prabhupāda: And a professional dancer is going, and the government is paying. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'd like you to take this, because this also has an article at length about our gurukula system in America. (indistinct explanation) Prabhupāda: Unless they are appreciating this culture, how they are accepting? Krishna Modi: It is perfectly right. But they must do it like that. Prabhupāda: Who will do? Do it . . . we can give you all information. Krishna Modi: That I will speak each and every thing. I will give a speech about all these things in any way. I have got . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This one is later. Just came. This is only a sample copy that we have. Krishna Modi: And what is your program, sir? Prabhupāda: My program is chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and write books. That's all. Krishna Modi: No, no, now. Staying in India. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am going to Vṛndāvana. Krishna Modi: Today? Prabhupāda: Tomorrow. Aaplog sab Brindavan ek din aaiye na. (You all come one day to Vṛndāvana.) Krishna Modi: And you are staying at Vṛndāvana up to . . . Prabhupāda: At least three weeks. Krishna Modi: Three weeks. Kṛṣṇa: So we can arrange a bus and take some . . . Krishna Modi: You will arrange for bus? Prabhupāda: Let them go. They have got their cars. Krishna Modi: They have their car also, and they have got this Taj and all these trains. Why you arrange? Let them spend. Prabhupāda: I wanted to work in India by spreading sankīrtana, provided I get little cooperation of the government. Krishna Modi: That we will talk. That we will talk. Prabhupāda: One cooperation is that we can bring immediately a small vans or buses so that we can go village to village, town to town. If I get government funding, then . . . because here, the buses are very costly, and at the same time they are not very good. But foreign buses . . . India hasn't got to pay anything, but simply let us have and work in India. This much facility wanted. Besides that, our men, they are coming, spending ten thousand rupees, and after three months or six months, "Get out, get out, get out." And Indians are not joining. Indians are not so sacrificing. But these boys, they have sacrificed everything. I am sure if some cooperation is coming from the government I can very soon change the face of India. But I am not getting any facilities. We have experimented in Bengal, and here also, he is also going, saṅkīrtana party. But he could not do it in a large scale for want of facilities. And in foreign countries these boys are so sacrificing spirit, as soon as we give him some program, immediately they make arrangement. Immediately. We are going village to village with books in buses. Hundreds of buses are working. Krishna Modi: In America. *Prabhupāda: In America, in Europe. They have got facilities, full facilities. And the government appreciates. Some of the governments, they have given public holiday of the Ratha*-yātrā. *Paramahaṁsa: This is from the Mayor of San Francisco proclaiming that Ratha*-yātrā is a public holiday. Krishna Modi: In America. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Yes, fifty thousand people come every year. Prabhupāda: And this time, New York, the government, the police, they appreciated that this kind of dancing, it is not artificial. So here is life. They appreciated. What the American boys have got to dance for Kṛṣṇa unless it is from the heart? They are not dancing dogs, that I have trained them and they are dancing. Paramahaṁsa: This is the temple in New York. Prabhupāda: So there are so many things to be done in India, but I am, without getting any cooperation, I am getting opposition. Krishna Modi: Correct. Now let us . . . we must be active. We must be active. Prabhupāda: It will be good for the country, for the whole nation. Krishna Modi: And we will come Vṛndāvana also. Prabhupāda: Please come. I am there for three weeks. Krishna Modi: How many rupees per day for three days? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a thirty*-room guest house in Vṛndāvana. Krishna Modi: Thirty room! Paramahaṁsa: You bring eighty persons with you, make nice arrangements. Prabhupāda: If you want sir, that is charge. We charge. Krishna Modi: That is . . . you must charge it. Lokanātha: Our charges are very nominal. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A donation to the temple. Krishna Modi: That is perfectly correct. You must charge. If your members will get free. Lokanātha: Yes. Each room has a fan, bath . . . Prabhupāda: It is . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: That is perfect. *Prabhupāda: I think air*-conditioned? No. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Some rooms are air*-conditioned, two or three . . . Prabhupāda: As far as your Governor Reddy, he went. He stayed there two days. He has certified . . . he sent me a recent letter, you'll be surprised. Ask Harikeśa to bring that letter, latest letter from Channerjee. Krishna Modi: No, I have seen that. I have seen that. Prabhupāda: Latest? Krishna Modi: Latest. Also I heard that this Channa Reddy, Governor of the U.P. I have seen. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's one of our gurukula children. Prabhupāda: Let us cooperate. You'll see how I can change the face of India. Krishna Modi: Let us have now . . . let us train some members also. *Prabhupāda: And this is the only platform where real United Nation can be made. That is practical. That is practical. That United Nation has failed. If this Indian culture . . . I have given this philosophy to the American students: andha*-paṅgu-nyāya. That a lame man and a blind man, separately, both of them are useless. But when they combine together, the lame man is taken on the shoulder of the blind man, and the lame man has got eyes but he has no legs. He gives direction and the blind man goes. So the . . . at the present moment I am trying to spread this movement all over the world. But we have no means. So let America supply the money, and let them take our direction for the culture. That will be United Nation. And actually it will become. How they are dancing, black, white, Indian, American, European, in Ratha-yātrā? There is no politics. It is out of really spiritual ecstasy. Krishna Modi: Ah, what is politics? It's a perfectly religious movement. *Prabhupāda: So this is the real platform of United Nation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu . Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu (BG 18.54). At that time samaḥ sarveṣu . Na śocati na kāṅkṣati . They have no demand. These boys, they are working so hard. They never ask a single paisa from me. It is not possible for me to pay these foreigners as salaried man. That is not possible. They get minimum four thousand rupees, minimum. Minimum salary, America, is $400 dollars. That means four thousand rupees. So . . . and they are getting $800, $1200, $2000. And poverty is unknown in America. They do not know what is poverty. I see here the milk, they are standing in block. You can get as much milk as you want anywhere you go, any shop you go, you take immediately. Anything. Building materials—you simply order to the suppliers, immediately everything is there. Krishna Modi: Ah, but here there are so many difficulties. Prabhupāda: Here simply difficulties. In comparison to other countries, I have seen that it is simply difficulty. Frankly speaking. And to speak more frankly, why there is Emergency? Emergency means bad government. Otherwise, there is no necessity of Emergency. Emergency proves the government is not going nice. Is it not? Why Emergency? If it is normally going on nicely, then where is the question of Emergency? Krishna Modi: Emergency means that is something unnormal. Prabhupāda: Yes. If it is normal, there is no question of Emergency. That is the proof. Another thing, personally, from the Vedic point of view, I don't think India is ready to take actually democracy. Mass of people, they do not care for politics. You have better experience. There, in other countries, even a small man, he has got political sense. Krishna Modi: Ah, but they are educated. Prabhupāda: But here, mass of people, they do not know what is politics. One gentleman, he was my friend, it is in 1952 or '53, Mr. Datt. He was a statistics man. So he was going in the villages to take some statistics. He said to me, "In the village, they ask me, 'Bābujī, (in Bengali asking "When will the English return?"). So, log janta hi nahi kya ho raha hai. (people don't know what is going on.) The mass of people, they're for foreigners' rule, "Come and rule over us." Because the mass of people they have no sense of politics. "Anyone may come, and let them rule, we don't mind. Whatever little tax you want, you take, that's all right." The mass of people is like that. They are not concerned in politics. Under the circumstances, a democracy is not suitable for India. Long ago that Lord Curzon, he suggested this, that in India, monarchy is better. He suggested that some of the rāj family members should become King of India. It will be welcome. And our country, all along this monarchy was there. Democracy is idea now, but the monarch up to Parīkṣit Mahārāja, they were ideal, rājarṣi . People have so much faith in the monarch that whatever he does, it is right. Naradeva. Of course, nowadays things have changed. Krishna Modi: There is no difference. In the name of democracy this is the same thing. That's all. Prabhupāda: No, democracy means the people must have political sense. Then democracy is there. If the people have no political sense, artificially they are giving vote, that democracy . . . anyway, we are not political men, but so far whatever it may be, to change the present situation, I am confident if this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is taken seriously in India there will be very, very good change. That is absolute. So we can take up this work provided there is little cooperation from the government. Krishna Modi: Correct. So I will come to Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Jaya . (end) (Meeting With Member of Parliament, Mr. Krishna Modi) *Prabhupāda: Tabhiyat theek hai? hamara tabiyat kuch pheeka*-pheeka hai. (Are you in good health? My health is not doing so good.) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is always traveling. Prabhupāda: Thoda time ka jaroorat hai. (A little bit of time is needed.) Krishna Modi: It is needed. *Prabhupāda: This is the only hope. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet ( SB 12.3.51). Throughout the whole world, the situation is not very good. Now there is drought, no water. All over the world. I have seen whole Europe, all the fields are now gray, no green. Idhar to khoob pani baras raha hai. (Here it is raining very heavily.) Krishna Modi: India this year is very good rains. Beyond expectation. And also this crop is very good. *Prabhupāda: Barasat hone se crop hoga. (Only if it rains there will be crops.) Parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ. Nature's work is there. As soon as there is sufficient rain you get sufficient crops. And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). Kali-yuga, this age, the yajña is hari-kīrtana . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ . Ek mandir me sankirtan ka ayojan kijiye sab theek ho jayega. (In one temple organize congregational chanting, everything will be alright.) Krishna Modi: Who can do this thing? Prabhupāda: We can do that. We can do that. Provided there is cooperation. Krishna Modi: Oh, that is good. Prabhupāda: Now . . . Krishna Modi: They have not given your phone number of this place. I was not in idea that they had shifted you. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Tejiyas did not tell you. Krishna Modi: And therefore I have phoned and phoned and phoned, but I was not getting anything. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When was this? Long time ago? Krishna Modi: No. Yesterday. Because yesterday I was to come here. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You got called by . . . *Krishna Modi: But I was called by Mr. Home Minister Brahmānanda Reddy, and he told me that you have come here . . . (indistinct) . . . so that I want to know something . . . (indistinct) . . . asking me. One question was put up in Rājya*-sabhā, and he's . . . (indistinct) . . . there. I told him that he's . . . (indistinct) . . . There are some gentlemen of, er . . . Labor Minister and from . . . (indistinct) . . . gentleman and they have come from Andhra Pradesh. They were also there. One MP, Mr. D. D. Desai, he is also there. Some . . . (indistinct) . . . members. And there was . . . (indistinct) . . . and we have discussed at length. And we have told them, and there is no restriction . . . (indistinct) . . . the size and to everybody. And you see then it is in Indian history, it is first time that something has been done. All people are saying that they have done in America, they have done in so many centers all over the world, and then we are, something like that, it is shameful. Prabhupāda: It is Indian culture. Krishna Modi: Indian culture. Then he told me that you are perfectly right, and I am also an Indian and I have that right also, that we have no knowledge about all these things. If you have something, then you please let us know so that we may inquire the particular matter. And I told him that you inquire first, and then why I should have to inquire? Why I have? There is no matter, no anything, then how can I give the order for inquiry? On what basis? Let the something come, then I will . . . and I told them that why you are harassing? Visa, and visa, all these things, this passport, and in all these things, and you say that you go over and . . . why you are? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Visa. Krishna Modi: Visa. Why you are harassing? I will check up. And you write me a letter so that I may call the Consulate man on the visas so that I may discuss it. And at length there was a discussion, and that was refuted because there are two, three gentlemen, personalities from Andhra, they also supported in a very . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda addressed the whole Andhra Pradesh cabinet in Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: I was invited by the . . . Krishna Modi: Yes, they have told, they have told. And they have told also that . . . no, no, no, no, no, no. For . . . (indistinct) . . . they are the . . . (indistinct) . . . and we must respect them. And if anybody says something against them, and we must be very careful about that. And we cannot object to it. Then all we have got the same opinion . . . (indistinct) . . . and we have to . . . (indistinct) . . . this is the thing. Now about this thing . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Blitz article. Krishna Modi: . . . Blitz article. You should not reply. I advised that. You should not reply to all these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We gave the reply to . . . Krishna Modi: To me. And . . . *Prabhupāda: Aaj barah baje tak humlog ka upwas hai Radharani ka janmdin. (Today we are fasting until 12 o'clock on the occasion of Radharani's birthday.) We shall take after twelve (half*-day fast for Rādhāṣṭamī), later prasādam . Krishna Modi: If Gurudeva is hungry. How I can take before? Prabhupāda: No, you can take. You can take. Krishna Modi: You give something so that we . . . Prabhupāda: No. You give the whole thing to him . . . (indistinct) . . . and you have brought . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: I will arrange. Prabhupāda: Isko to lijiye. (Take this.) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sweet and kṣīra . Mahā*-prasādam . Nahi bad me lenge . . . (No, I will take afterwards . . .) Krishna Modi: You will reply and also the article, so that I am arranging to call all the members Parliament they are concerning with this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. They are some members, so you give me the list of bad members also. And then we will discuss all the matters, and you will . . . then we will give the articles to all the other papers from our side. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That will be very nice. Krishna Modi: Illustrated Weekly or News or Kalyani . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Illustrated Weekly is atheistic. Kushwant Singh, the editor, openly told us that "I don't believe in God." But Danyug is religious. Krishna Modi: You don't mind for that. We will give. And MPs will write and sign, then we . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We will have the . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: Find out . . . (indistinct) . . . and if you don't mind, I will give one suggestion more. In the Indian national interest, in this country's interest, that I should prepare some interested members to see all over the world, our, this . . . Prabhupāda: That will be very nice. Krishna Modi: So that . . . let them ticket hire and air freight and all that should be paid by them. Let them support. Prabhupāda: We have got branches in almost all important cities. Krishna Modi: Ten or fifteen. Let them see, so that they may be attracted and they may know each and every thing. Because here we know only by this thing. And then let us advertise about. Prabhupāda: You take this paper. Make a list of important cities. Now suppose if you go from Delhi. So you can go first to Paris, Geneva, Rome, then London, Amsterdam, Stockholm. Then from London I think . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: America. Prabhupāda: . . . New York, Boston, Montreal, Canada. Then you go to the western side—Los Angeles, San Francisco . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Vancouver. Prabhupāda: Vancouver. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Canada. Prabhupāda: Go further, Honolulu. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Then you could go to the Pacific, Australia. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New Zealand, Sydney. Prabhupāda: Australia, Sydney, Melbourne. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You can stop in Japan on the way. Krishna Modi: Let us have a program, make a program so that some . . . Prabhupāda: In every big city . . . Krishna Modi: Five or ten, they should go with all their expenses. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can stay at our temples, wherever they go. We will pick them up at the airport and bring them to the temple. *Krishna Modi: Pre*-arrangement should be done by our . . . this thing, this transport and fooding and lodging. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Local transport and . . . Krishna Modi: That is. So that I may fix up this program with the . . . Prabhupāda: Very good. Krishna Modi: . . . ten or fifteen people, so that they may go and see and all these things, and then they can also, if any question comes in the House, then they can oppose like anything. And they should submit their report also to the Prime Minister, Home Minister, to everybody, and to House also. And "This thing has been done, and we must be proud about that, that some . . ." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And to start out they can come to Vṛndāvana, which is right nearby. We can take them in a bus. We have a beautiful center in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. Krishna Modi: Yes, that because this is in India. Whenever they like, they will see it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So when can they organize this tour? How soon can it be organized? Krishna Modi: I'll ask them. I have an idea about that only. Because yesterday Mr. Brahmānanda Reddy already told me that, "Why not you people also stand up and say something about that? Why not you strengthen my hands? Because they press and press and they want something that I should say something. So if you people stand and then you say that, 'No, no, no, no. This is not the thing, and we have seen it and this and this and that and that.' And they will be . . ." That is his idea. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But the only people who are pressing charges are the Communists. They are just trying to . . . Krishna Modi: But they will do. That is their duty. Prabhupāda: They are atheists. Krishna Modi: Yes. So that why we should mind for that? That is there. You may say they're rākṣasa , or whatever you give the . . . (laughs) They will, always they will . . . Prabhupāda: Rākṣasas are always ready to kill God. That was the business of Rāvaṇa, that was the business of Kaṁsa, that was the business of Hiraṇyakaśipu. Krishna Modi: That is the same thing in Rāvaṇa and this . . . what is this, at that time. That is the same thing. They were happy, they were drink and all these things, and take on and all that time, and also harassing the devotees and . . . this is their duty. Indian man: Very . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: This is their duty. Therefore we should not mind for that. Let them do it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, even Russia, which is Communist, has admired Prabhupāda's books. I have written reviews—I was in Russia two months ago—from them, praising Prabhupāda's books very much. The leading professors there. Krishna Modi: Also, this is a part of nowadays—advertise and all these things, to know each and every thing. This is correct, that why you are worrying about all these things? People should know it about you. Why not hear it? This is perfectly right, I agree with you. But in the interest of other people who have faith in their religion . . . *Prabhupāda: No, our mission is that this Kṛṣṇa cult should be preached all over the world. That is the Bhagavad*-gītā decision. Find out this verse, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). (devotees look for verse) Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ . Eighteenth Chapter. Mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati . Hari-śauri: Is that the one, "There's no one more dear to me than . . ."? "There's no one more dear"? (to devotee) It's that one, "There's no one more dear." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in black Africa Prabhupāda has temples. Krishna Modi: Yes, that is good. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I say even in black Africa you have temples and devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Modi: You must circulate these all things. At least to our members. Prabhupāda: Read it. Lokanātha: Where is the verse? Prabhupāda: Why don't you print the opinions? Several times . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have printed. Prabhupāda: Where is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, I have it. We have printed the reviews in all, and the Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is Authorized. Prabhupāda: That is a simple thing, but all the reviews you should print them in book. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In a book form. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are hundreds of reviews. Krishna Modi: And you should also supply that to at least your interested members, interested Parliament only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll design a special booklet just for . . . Prabhupāda: I am asking you for so many months that you publish all these opinions. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have all the opinions, but we presently have them in sheets, not in a book form. We can put it in . . . Prabhupāda: Where is that? Where is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In the sheets? Oh, I have. Yes, I have most of the reviews, book reviews, with me. Prabhupāda: So, where is that? Bring it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Lokanātha: Read it? Translation: "For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me." Read the purport? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Lokanātha: Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: "Generally it is advised that Bhagavad*-gītā be discussed amongst the devotees only, for those who are not devotees will neither understand Kṛṣṇa nor Bhagavad-gītā . Those who do not accept Kṛṣṇa as He is and Bhagavad-gītā as it is should not try to explain Bhagavad-gītā whimsically and become offenders. Bhagavad-gītā should be explained to persons who are ready to accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is a subject matter for devotees only and not for philosophical speculators. Anyone, however, who tries sincerely to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is will advance in devotional activities and reach the pure devotional state of life. As a result of such pure devotion, he is sure to go back home, back to Godhead." Prabhupāda: What is this? Krishna Modi: That is Blitz. Prabhupāda: Oh. It is new? Hari-śauri: No, this is the first article. Krishna Modi: And second article also they have given? Hari-śauri: Yes, there's another one. Small. Krishna Modi: Blitz has given second article also? Hari-śauri: Yes, this last week's issue. This one's from two or three weeks ago. Devotee: It's two weeks ago, and last week . . . every week they . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: Where is that? Hari-śauri: You have that second article? Krishna Modi: That you are giving me today? Devotee: Gopala Krsna will have. Krishna Modi: Then he will give? Hari-śauri: (aside) Bring that second article. Prabhupāda: (reads newspaper headlines) Blitz . . . (indistinct) . . . "Ungodly face of Kṛṣṇa." Krishna Modi: They must say like that. (laughs) Devotee: This is for you. This is the second part of it. This is the second version. Krishna Modi: Of this. Devotee: Yes. Krishna Modi: They must say it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These books have been acclaimed by scholars all over the world. Krishna Modi: Not world, but you give us only Indian, Indian. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want only the Indian. Krishna Modi: Yes. Hari-śauri: This is second one. This is last week. Krishna Modi: This Andhra government also are Kṛṣṇa culture. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Such bogus. Prabhupāda: No, all the ministers of Andhra government, they came to our opening ceremony of the temple. Chief Minister spoke, and the Endowment Minister, Suraj Narayan, Raju. He's a nice devotee. Le aao, patti le aao, patti, kele ka patti hai? (Bring, bring the leaf . . . leaf, you have banana leaf?) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have Britannic Encyclopedia . . . Prabhupāda: Where is the opinion of the Russian? Krishna Modi: This is nothing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the way it is now. They're telling everyone that the Andhra government is . . . Krishna Modi: This is nothing, I think. I don't think it is anything wrong. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "Falls for Kṛṣṇa." Krishna Modi: That is another thing. But in article they have told nothing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They try to indirectly say . . . Krishna Modi: Ah, that is not . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they have nothing to prove . . . Krishna Modi: Prove them therefore . . . let them say like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Britannic Encyclopedia on the book of the year, they only have about a hundred selected personalities of the world, and they had a biography on Prabhupāda. Krishna Modi: Now I think we must systematically discuss this matter. Now I think it is decided . . . Prabhupāda: Ek sutli le aao, usko bandh de. (Bring a cord and tie this up.) Krishna Modi: It is now decided that you will give us all the Indian . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also should we give you what Indian professors have wrote? Like this Dr. Mahesh Mehta at the University of Windsor. Some of the Indian professors in America are very . . . Indians in India and Indians abroad. Krishna Modi: Yes, yes, yes. Indians, all Indians abroad. Abroad and also Communist countries if anybody. Give us any report. Russia, like that, you should give us in a file, make a file. And one thing is this. Now second is that when we are . . . Prabhupāda: This is a good book advertisement. (laughs) "Andhra government falls for Kṛṣṇa . . ." Krishna Modi: (laughs) No, he has not written anything. It is only it seems that . . . what can be said about . . . Prabhupāda: Whole government is supporting. Krishna Modi: Supporting. His meaning is this, that this Congress government is also doing all these mischiefs, so that they will . . . (laughs) That his main idea, and nothing else. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are also victimized by this Kṛṣṇa cult. Krishna Modi: One thing, then, you will give us all . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Reviews. Krishna Modi: . . . these recorded informations and all these . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And also we give you letters of leading ācāryas of India who are . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: No harm. And second thing, after three months, or at the time of session, you must call the MPs for a time only for taking prasāda . And they'll come. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Four or five? All of them? Krishna Modi: Four, five, and we will bring so many. So that let them . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have few movies on our movement. Like one is on our New Vṛndāvana farm, which shows how the Indian Vedic way of life is being adapted even in America on the farm. A movie on the Hare Kṛṣṇa people . . . Krishna Modi: You show them at that time. I will invite. Just say you have shown that in Tirupati's house, Hare Kṛṣṇa picture, that. And that is very impressive. Everybody appreciates that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have two more movies like that. Krishna Modi: Ah, then you must . . . I will arrange for that. In October we are meeting again after 25th. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When the session is over or almost over? *Krishna Modi: No, session is for today, that's all. Then it is over. Then at any time, you meet me. I will invite them. I will invite them. So that let them come—ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty*-five, thirty—let them come, and let them see, and let them . . . so that our number must be . . . and third, I will request you, make a program. I will make for this work. Let them see for one month program. And they will pay all their air freight, all these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And local transportation, local accommodation . . . Krishna Modi: Local accommodation and all, that should be managed, and nothing else. So that let them know each and every thing so that they may . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we will give the reply to Blitz to you? Krishna Modi: Yes, give me so that we will . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll give it to you this evening or leave it in your house. Krishna Modi: Okay. So before 5th I will give some good papers for that . . . giving our names also. In our name. These articles will be published in our name. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want us to give you an article on ISKCON? A brief article? Or . . . Krishna Modi: No, you don't give the article. You give only that like and this thing. Then we will give. In Hindi also and in English and Gujarati. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. That will be very nice. We will do that. *Krishna Modi: Agar unke paas pada hai to, sab bhuke*-vukhe hai to . . . ha communist . . . (If it is lying with him and everyone is hungry, then . . . yes, communist . . .) They don't want anything. They say that religious is a opium. So that what you are doing . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . they are not liking. If they are in power then they can do like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They did it in Russia. Krishna Modi: Because their theory is this: That this God and all these religious matters, this is a opium, and this is a kind of, you may say it that in the umbrella, religious in the name of . . . Prabhupāda: And what they have done, the Communists? Krishna Modi: They have not done anything. They should not do anything. It is not their duty. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, countries like Russia and China, what actual progress they have made? Krishna Modi: That is . . . they say like that, that "We are giving very good food to everybody, very good house, and living, and all their garment, education, medical free. We are giving the to common men . . . Prabhupāda: Medical . . . (indistinct) . . . is free. Free medical service, education . . . (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . and in the offices of big, big professors and all, it looks so much lower than in America or Canada. Krishna Modi: And in the comparison of India? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, in some respects I found them even lower than India. You'll be amazed . . . I visited all the leading libraries of Russia and Leningrad, Moscow University Library, all the big libraries. These libraries don't have any foreign exchange for ordering these books. They all want to order . . . they were begging me for free books. They said: "Why don't you give us a donation or exchange?" They have a book exchange that if they give their books then we give our books. Each library gets such little foreign exchange allowance to buy books from abroad. Prabhupāda: A taxi driver, he was asking some bakshish . Krishna Modi: In Russia. Prabhupāda: And I was talking with Professor Kotovsky. I asked him, "Please call for a taxi." So he said, "Swāmījī, it is Moscow." That means taxis are not available. Then he came down with me, and from the gate he showed me, "You take this shortcut when you go to your hotel." He could not call a taxi. Taxis are not available. He said: "Oh, it is Moscow." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But even the taxi drivers are very corrupt because of the shortage of taxis in Russia. You have to stand in line for taxis. Prabhupāda: Not taxi—bus. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even for taxis they have no taxi stands where you stand in line. So the taxi driver, he will park his car a little bit away. Prabhupāda: In my opinion it is a poor country. I think poorer than India. Krishna Modi: They have advertised only. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have good propaganda. Prabhupāda: And people are not happy. They are terrorized. *Krishna Modi: That is correct. That is correct. In Parliament we are telling that they are a first*-class prisoner. First-class prison. *Prabhupāda: Yes. First*-class prisoners. Not first-class; *third*-class. (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But I was told . . . because a lot of people in Russia who are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa also. It's very . . . there's a lot of corruption. Even the taxi drivers are corrupt. They'll park their taxi a bit away then come and approach you when you are standing in a line and say: "Okay, I'll take you there," but he'll tell you three times the price because everyone's waiting in such a long line for a taxi. Prabhupāda: Black market. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And one friend of ours told us what they do, because all the cars belong to the state, a lot of taxis, the people . . . Krishna Modi: The taxis are not independent. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they all belong to the state. But the driver, if he makes extra money, that goes in his pocket. And they have tipping also. *Prabhupāda: And they are always anxious to get extra. Buses are not very good. Third*-class buses. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And a lot of people want foreign exchange there. Like they'll ask . . . Krishna Modi: I'm going. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You're going to Russia? When? Krishna Modi: Yes, on 4th of October. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For how long? Krishna Modi: About fifteen days. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Visit. Krishna Modi: Budapest also. Because I am not Communist, and I'm not supporting also Communist. Therefore they have not told that, "He should not be sent there." Told me. But due to some . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You are going to just Budapest? That is Hungary. Krishna Modi: Hungary, yes. Hungary then Moscow. Then Moscow, Leningrad. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. Actually, I can give you a book from Leningrad if you wish to . . . this is from Moscow if you want to read it. It's all about Moscow. These are of course the good pictures of Moscow. You wish to have it? I can give it to you. This is on Moscow. I also have one on Leningrad. Krishna Modi: I will take after lunch. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a letter from the biggest library in Russia to Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. They have ordered some books, and they want the remaining books but they wanted free, in exchange. But they don't have the money. They want all of Prabhupāda's books but they don't have the money, so they want in exchange. This is from the biggest library in Russia. Krishna Modi: Our economy is something good at this time. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Indian economy . . . Krishna Modi: Indian economy is better. Income tax also they have got 67% more. Because they have reduced the rate. Prabhupāda: What is the percentage? Krishna Modi: Before that the percentage is 97, but last year, is 1976, in the March they have reduced the income tax from 97 to 65 . . . 67 and a half. Prabhupāda: In America it is 25. Krishna Modi: No, not 25, that is 45. But there is a system in West Germany that if you earn more, the tax will be less. That is their system. If we will earn . . . (indistinct) . . . then the tax percentage will be lower. Lower. Prabhupāda: That is good. That is good. The psychology is that if you earn more and government will tax more, then the impetus for earning more is cut. Krishna Modi: That is the point. Therefore they have got no black money. And here the system is different. If you will earn more, then you will have to pay more. It means people are not as interested in earning. Prabhupāda: Therefore what is the use of earning? What is the use of earning? Krishna Modi: That is true. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they are reducing the . . . Krishna Modi: Then I will get all the replies and papers today. And I will arrange each and everything before 5th or 6th of September. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You leave here the 6th? Krishna Modi: Oh, no. I will leave today or tomorrow. But I will come and I will arrange all these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When are you coming back here? Krishna Modi: I will come back on 5th. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifth. Okay. So I'll meet you on the 5th then. Krishna Modi: No, I will ring you here. You give me the telephone number. No, we don't mind for them. We will crush them for all these things. They can't speak like that. If they will discredit India, then . . . Prabhupāda: One thing, general thing, that I am writing books and selling in foreign countries, and I'm bringing the money here. It is for India's sake. Krishna Modi: But somebody should tell in the House all these things. Prabhupāda: You can tell. Krishna Modi: That is the thing only. That is the point of Mr. Brahmānanda Reddy also. Yesterday he told me . . . Prabhupāda: This is the important point, that my books are sold daily sixty thousand dollars all over the world. I have made the Trust so all the collections should be divided fifty percent for constructing temple and fifty percent for reprinting books. But we don't take a paisa profit. So far as an author, they are selling, sixty thousand dollars. And even if I would have taken ten percent royalty then it would have been six thousand dollars. Six thousand dollars means . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hundred and eighty thousand dollars a month. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Six thousand dollars means . . . say ten rupees. Krishna Modi: Sixty thousand per day. Prabhupāda: Sixty thousand per day. Actually. But we are all foregoing it for pushing on this movement, and if we bring that money and construct big, big temple or planetarium, what is the harm to India? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is bringing in more foreign exchange than even big business export concerns. Prabhupāda: I'm bringing regularly not less than ten lakhs of rupees per month. Krishna Modi: Sending to India. We must tell them all these things. Prabhupāda: You tell. Krishna Modi: That is the thing. This is the Brahmānanda Reddy told yesterday that some members must be briefed and they must tell something, so that my hands may be strengthened and so that I may . . . Prabhupāda: It is a great credit that I am selling my books and bringing ten lakhs of rupees from foreign country in India. Krishna Modi: That we will speak. And his mind is very clear. Brahmānanda Reddy, his mind is very clear, very clear, and he is appreciating. And he is in our favor hundred percent. Prabhupāda: Even not in our favor, I am working hard in foreign countries and bringing money to India. You should give us some credit. But instead of giving credit, I am being criticized in the Parliament. Krishna Modi: They are putting like this. They are putting this case like that, that foreign money is coming here to advertise the American embassies, like that. They are that talking like that. Prabhupāda: They may talk nonsense, but this is the fact. This is the fact. I have got my Book Trust Fund, and I've advised regularly to send eight lakhs of rupees per month. That is being spent in Bombay, in . . . I'm not collecting from here. Krishna Modi: That is correct. Prabhupāda: So if a Indian brings from foreign country by his labor eight lakhs of rupees per month, how much credit he should be given? He should be recognized. But instead of recognizing they are criticizing. Krishna Modi: This is their way, sir. That is their . . . they have to. They must do it. Because . . . Prabhupāda: So you kindly speak to the Parliament that, "This is the position, that he is working day and night . . ." Krishna Modi: Oh, no, I will speak very high about this. Let them . . . let the matter come. And if not come then we will take this matter. I will give the question. You please reply how much money is coming and in what way they are doing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Modi: I will ask the question. Prabhupāda: Prove that the American government is supplying some way. No. We are selling our books. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, when you go abroad you can even see how our income's coming, how our temples live. We are all over the world. Prabhupāda: That is our books are being printed. Krishna Modi: A very big thing it is. It is marvelous that you have done such a thing. It is proud of India that . . . *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New York devotees just got a twelve*-story building right in the center, and I know the local Hindus, they are trying to build a small temple since twenty years, and they're not succeeding. And right in the center of New York we have a twelve-story building. Now all the Hindus are coming to us. Prabhupāda: You have got that picture, New York temple? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Ratha*-yātrā picture? (discussion about who has pictures) Ratha-yātrā, the New York paper. Hari-śauri: In the new magazine. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New York Times, Newsweek. All the Indians came. They said, "East Meets West." Prabhupāda: Now who has converted so many of . . . this is one party. (referring to kīrtana going on in temple room) Hundreds of parties like this, they are engaged in kīrtana . India government is sending so many professional dancers by paying them from the cultural department, and what I am getting? Not a single farthing. And still I am bringing. Krishna Modi: Ah, Indian culture is . . . you . . . nobody has done these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like gurukula . *Prabhupāda: The Ratha*-yātrā festival, where is? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, the news of Ratha*-yātrā. Here. "New York Celebrates Festival of Chariots." Even at the U.N. conference we were there. They welcomed Vedic . . . we presented a Vedic reply to the U.N. conference. Prabhupāda: Wherever possible we are presenting Vedic culture, Indian culture. And I have no support from the government. Krishna Modi: Let us have. Prabhupāda: And a professional dancer is going, and the government is paying. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'd like you to take this, because this also has an article at length about our gurukula system in America. (indistinct explanation) Prabhupāda: Unless they are appreciating this culture, how they are accepting? Krishna Modi: It is perfectly right. But they must do it like that. Prabhupāda: Who will do? Do it . . . we can give you all information. Krishna Modi: That I will speak each and every thing. I will give a speech about all these things in any way. I have got . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This one is later. Just came. This is only a sample copy that we have. Krishna Modi: And what is your program, sir? Prabhupāda: My program is chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and write books. That's all. Krishna Modi: No, no, now. Staying in India. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am going to Vṛndāvana. Krishna Modi: Today? Prabhupāda: Tomorrow. Aaplog sab Brindavan ek din aaiye na. (You all come one day to Vṛndāvana.) Krishna Modi: And you are staying at Vṛndāvana up to . . . Prabhupāda: At least three weeks. Krishna Modi: Three weeks. Kṛṣṇa: So we can arrange a bus and take some . . . Krishna Modi: You will arrange for bus? Prabhupāda: Let them go. They have got their cars. Krishna Modi: They have their car also, and they have got this Taj and all these trains. Why you arrange? Let them spend. Prabhupāda: I wanted to work in India by spreading sankīrtana, provided I get little cooperation of the government. Krishna Modi: That we will talk. That we will talk. Prabhupāda: One cooperation is that we can bring immediately a small vans or buses so that we can go village to village, town to town. If I get government funding, then . . . because here, the buses are very costly, and at the same time they are not very good. But foreign buses . . . India hasn't got to pay anything, but simply let us have and work in India. This much facility wanted. Besides that, our men, they are coming, spending ten thousand rupees, and after three months or six months, "Get out, get out, get out." And Indians are not joining. Indians are not so sacrificing. But these boys, they have sacrificed everything. I am sure if some cooperation is coming from the government I can very soon change the face of India. But I am not getting any facilities. We have experimented in Bengal, and here also, he is also going, saṅkīrtana party. But he could not do it in a large scale for want of facilities. And in foreign countries these boys are so sacrificing spirit, as soon as we give him some program, immediately they make arrangement. Immediately. We are going village to village with books in buses. Hundreds of buses are working. Krishna Modi: In America. *Prabhupāda: In America, in Europe. They have got facilities, full facilities. And the government appreciates. Some of the governments, they have given public holiday of the Ratha*-yātrā. *Paramahaṁsa: This is from the Mayor of San Francisco proclaiming that Ratha*-yātrā is a public holiday. Krishna Modi: In America. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Yes, fifty thousand people come every year. Prabhupāda: And this time, New York, the government, the police, they appreciated that this kind of dancing, it is not artificial. So here is life. They appreciated. What the American boys have got to dance for Kṛṣṇa unless it is from the heart? They are not dancing dogs, that I have trained them and they are dancing. Paramahaṁsa: This is the temple in New York. Prabhupāda: So there are so many things to be done in India, but I am, without getting any cooperation, I am getting opposition. Krishna Modi: Correct. Now let us . . . we must be active. We must be active. Prabhupāda: It will be good for the country, for the whole nation. Krishna Modi: And we will come Vṛndāvana also. Prabhupāda: Please come. I am there for three weeks. Krishna Modi: How many rupees per day for three days? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a thirty*-room guest house in Vṛndāvana. Krishna Modi: Thirty room! Paramahaṁsa: You bring eighty persons with you, make nice arrangements. Prabhupāda: If you want sir, that is charge. We charge. Krishna Modi: That is . . . you must charge it. Lokanātha: Our charges are very nominal. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A donation to the temple. Krishna Modi: That is perfectly correct. You must charge. If your members will get free. Lokanātha: Yes. Each room has a fan, bath . . . Prabhupāda: It is . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: That is perfect. *Prabhupāda: I think air*-conditioned? No. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Some rooms are air*-conditioned, two or three . . . Prabhupāda: As far as your Governor Reddy, he went. He stayed there two days. He has certified . . . he sent me a recent letter, you'll be surprised. Ask Harikeśa to bring that letter, latest letter from Channerjee. Krishna Modi: No, I have seen that. I have seen that. Prabhupāda: Latest? Krishna Modi: Latest. Also I heard that this Channa Reddy, Governor of the U.P. I have seen. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's one of our gurukula children. Prabhupāda: Let us cooperate. You'll see how I can change the face of India. Krishna Modi: Let us have now . . . let us train some members also. *Prabhupāda: And this is the only platform where real United Nation can be made. That is practical. That is practical. That United Nation has failed. If this Indian culture . . . I have given this philosophy to the American students: andha*-paṅgu-nyāya. That a lame man and a blind man, separately, both of them are useless. But when they combine together, the lame man is taken on the shoulder of the blind man, and the lame man has got eyes but he has no legs. He gives direction and the blind man goes. So the . . . at the present moment I am trying to spread this movement all over the world. But we have no means. So let America supply the money, and let them take our direction for the culture. That will be United Nation. And actually it will become. How they are dancing, black, white, Indian, American, European, in Ratha-yātrā? There is no politics. It is out of really spiritual ecstasy. Krishna Modi: Ah, what is politics? It's a perfectly religious movement. *Prabhupāda: So this is the real platform of United Nation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu . Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu (BG 18.54). At that time samaḥ sarveṣu . Na śocati na kāṅkṣati . They have no demand. These boys, they are working so hard. They never ask a single paisa from me. It is not possible for me to pay these foreigners as salaried man. That is not possible. They get minimum four thousand rupees, minimum. Minimum salary, America, is $400 dollars. That means four thousand rupees. So . . . and they are getting $800, $1200, $2000. And poverty is unknown in America. They do not know what is poverty. I see here the milk, they are standing in block. You can get as much milk as you want anywhere you go, any shop you go, you take immediately. Anything. Building materials—you simply order to the suppliers, immediately everything is there. Krishna Modi: Ah, but here there are so many difficulties. Prabhupāda: Here simply difficulties. In comparison to other countries, I have seen that it is simply difficulty. Frankly speaking. And to speak more frankly, why there is Emergency? Emergency means bad government. Otherwise, there is no necessity of Emergency. Emergency proves the government is not going nice. Is it not? Why Emergency? If it is normally going on nicely, then where is the question of Emergency? Krishna Modi: Emergency means that is something unnormal. Prabhupāda: Yes. If it is normal, there is no question of Emergency. That is the proof. Another thing, personally, from the Vedic point of view, I don't think India is ready to take actually democracy. Mass of people, they do not care for politics. You have better experience. There, in other countries, even a small man, he has got political sense. Krishna Modi: Ah, but they are educated. Prabhupāda: But here, mass of people, they do not know what is politics. One gentleman, he was my friend, it is in 1952 or '53, Mr. Datt. He was a statistics man. So he was going in the villages to take some statistics. He said to me, "In the village, they ask me, 'Bābujī, (in Bengali asking "When will the English return?"). So, log janta hi nahi kya ho raha hai. (people don't know what is going on.) The mass of people, they're for foreigners' rule, "Come and rule over us." Because the mass of people they have no sense of politics. "Anyone may come, and let them rule, we don't mind. Whatever little tax you want, you take, that's all right." The mass of people is like that. They are not concerned in politics. Under the circumstances, a democracy is not suitable for India. Long ago that Lord Curzon, he suggested this, that in India, monarchy is better. He suggested that some of the rāj family members should become King of India. It will be welcome. And our country, all along this monarchy was there. Democracy is idea now, but the monarch up to Parīkṣit Mahārāja, they were ideal, rājarṣi . People have so much faith in the monarch that whatever he does, it is right. Naradeva. Of course, nowadays things have changed. Krishna Modi: There is no difference. In the name of democracy this is the same thing. That's all. Prabhupāda: No, democracy means the people must have political sense. Then democracy is there. If the people have no political sense, artificially they are giving vote, that democracy . . . anyway, we are not political men, but so far whatever it may be, to change the present situation, I am confident if this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is taken seriously in India there will be very, very good change. That is absolute. So we can take up this work provided there is little cooperation from the government. Krishna Modi: Correct. So I will come to Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Jaya . (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . required to kill somebody, he'll do that—if it is required for his sense gratification. There are many instances that a woman is addicted to another man, and she has killed her husband, killed her son. Why? Sense gratification. I have seen one woman, my Godbrother's wife, she killed her son for being implicated with another man. I have seen it. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma ( SB 5.5.4). Things which are not to be done, they do it. Why? For the matter of sense gratification. They do it. That's a fact. So therefore simply for sense gratification they are prepared to do anything. That means pāpa . It is the verdict of the court that when a man kills another man he becomes mad. Without becoming mad, a man cannot kill another man. So everything is being done which is not sanctioned because for sense gratification. The whole world business is sense gratification. And at the end, when he's little spiritually inclined, he wants to satisfy senses by thinking artificially that "I shall become God." That is the greatest sense gratification. Because remaining a small living entity I have been hampered in my sense gratification. Now let me become God so that there will be no restriction of my sense gratification. Bhagavān . . . (indistinct) . . . because he has failed to satisfy his senses remaining non*-Bhagavān, now he wants to become Bhagavān. Yogī , that is also another sense gratification, that if I show some magic, if I can create little gold like this, hundreds and thousands of men will be after me and I shall live very nicely, just gratify my senses. These things are going on practically. The man who is manufacturing gold, and so many rich people are coming to his disciples and he's begging for a motorcar. If he can create gold, why he cannot create a motorcar? This is going on. Wo English me bol raha tha. (He was talking in English.) (break) Prabhupāda: Kya apka praśna hai? Apka praśna kya hai? (Do you have any question? What is your question?) Indian man: Baat ye hai guruji ki ek mene do teen saal pehle kisiko 5000 rupaya loan diya tha, aur usne kaha tha ki 4-5 din me vapas kar dega lekin abhi tak vapas nahi kiya. (The thing is Guruji, 2-3 years back I had given someone a loan of 5,000 rupees, and he had said that he would return it in 4-5 days but he hasn't returned it yet.) Prabhupāda: Kaun 5000 liya tha? (Who had taken 5,000 from you?) Indian man: Mera ek dost hai uska printing press hai. (I have a friend who runs a printing press.) Prabhupāda: Kam kya karta hai? (What work does he do?) Indian man: Printing ka kam karta hai wo. (He does the job of printing.) . . . (indistinct background conversation) . . . Prabhupāda: Us praśna ko hamare pas lane se kya faida? Nahi to . . . hum kya kare? (So what is the use of getting that question to us? What can we do?) Indian man: Nahi humne bahut koshish ki, aap sahi tarika boliye kaise usko . . . (No I tried a lot, if you could tell me what is the right way to . . . ) Prabhupāda: Hum uska tarika batayen, ye koi praśna hai? . . . Ye sab chalta hai, "hum 5000 rupaya mangte hain, aap dila dijiye to aap bada saheb ho jayiye". Ab agar wo 5000 rupaya humko milta hi nahin, aap kuch mantra laga kar usko dila dijiye tab hum manenge apko bada saheb aur nahin to nahi . . . Sadhu ka ye kam hai ki jo deta nahi usko dila de, bada saheb, mantra padke. Ye koi praśna hai sadhu ke liye. Ye sab chal raha hai. (We should say the solution, is that a question? These things are going on "I am asking for 5,000 rupees, you help me get it then you will become a big Sir". Now if I don't get that 5,000 rupees, you please do some magic and get it for me, then I shall consider you a big man, otherwise not. This is the work of a sage, who hasn't got anything, to give him something . . . Big Sir . . ., by reading some mantras. Is this a question which should be asked to a Sage? All these things are going on.) (Devotees chanting 'Hari Hari') Ye Sadhu ke pas jata hai aur: Māhārāj hamara pet me dard hai, aur sadhu usko koi dawai dega aur bada saheb. (They go to the Sage and tell him: Māhārāj I have pain in the stomach, and the sage gives him some medicine, then he would become a 'Big Sir'.) *Indian man (2): Ye adalat ka kam hai. Sadhu*-santon ke pas bhagvan ka poocho, bhagvan ke bhakti ka poocho, bhagvan ke kuch smabandh ki baat karo, ye sab maya ke bat nahi. (These works are meant for the court. When you come to a Sage you must enquire about God, about devotion to God, topics related to God, and not topics related to maya.) Indian man: Nahi mujhe jab maya milegi me Kṛṣṇa ji ko daan kar dunga na (No when I get the money, I will donate it to Kṛṣṇa.) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa ko wo daan nahi chahiye. Ap usko bhul jaiye. (Kṛṣṇa doesn't want that money. You forget about it.) Indian man (2): Sab to wo deta hai, ap usko kya denge? (He provides for everything. What can we give to him?) Prabhupāda: Apko 5,000 rupaya dila den to ap Kṛṣṇa ko denge. Abhi apke pas do chaar paise jo hain wo dijiye. (If you get that 5,000 rupees you will donate it to Kṛṣṇa. But whatever little amount you have now, you donate that first.) Indian man: Sirf yahi dukh hain mujhe aur sab . . . (This is the only sadness I have, remaining everything . . .) Indian man (2): To usko dena hoga de diya, jab lena hai to kabhi mil jayega. (This was your time to give, so you gave. When it's your time to get, then you will get it.) . . . (indistinct conversation) . . . *Prabhupāda: Sadhu kisko bataya jata hai? Bhagvan kisko sadhu bataya hai? To 'api cet su*-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ' (BG 9.30) jo bhagvat bhajan karta hai, 'ananya bhak' se wo sadhu hai. Wo māhātamā bada durlabh hai jo ki Vāsudev bhagwan ko hi sab kuch manta hai . . . 'bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ' (BG 7.19) Ye sab kaun māhātamā hai, kaun sahdhu hai iske vishay me bhagvan khud bata diya hai. Wo 'bhajate mām ananya-bhāk' wo sadhu hai. Unke pas Bhagvat bhajan karne ke liye puch sakte hain, rupaya kaise milega uske liye to aur sab . . . ye sab ajkal yahi chalta hai. (break) Sadhu ke pas, kis tarah se tapasya karni padti hai . . . kaise Bhagwan ka sanidhya labh ho sakega usko puchna chahiye. (Who is called as a Sage? Who has God declared as a sage? So api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ (BG 9.30) one who sings the glories of the Lord without deviation "Ananya bhak" he is a sage. That being is very rare who considers only Lord Vasudeva to be everything . . . bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19) These things like: 'Who is a Saint', 'Who is a Sage', the Lord himself has explained about these things. That one who is engagegd in devotional service without any deviation "bhajate mām ananya-bhāk" is a Sage. You can ask him about how to sing glories of the Lord. For things related to how to get money and all there are other . . . these things are all going on today. (break) How to perform austerities, how to get the association of supreme Lord, these things should be asked to a Sage.) Indian man: . . . Prabhuji ek baat hai, Bhagvan ki itni seva ki hai . . . aur main prarthana karta hoon ki mujhe aise ashirwad chahiye ki me bhagwan ko kabhi bhulun na aur jo kaam me karun unke liye karun. . . yehi mai aapse aashirvad mangta hoon. Aur kabhi gande kaam me mera dyan na jaye, sachai bolun. . . (. . . Prabhuji there is one thing, I have rendered so much service to the Lord. . . I worship God that I want this blessing: I should never forget God and whatever work I do, I should do it for him . . . also this is the blessing I seek from you. Also, my mind should never be engaged in any dirty works, I should always speak the truth . . .) Prabhupāda: Bhagvan apko aashirvad kare. (May the Lord bless you.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Devotees chanting 'Jay Prabhupāda')'kirtaniya sada Hari' 'satatam kirtayanto' Sab samay kirtan karo. Kam karo aur Hare Kṛṣṇa bolne me kya nuksan hai. (All the time sing the names of God. Do your work but what is the loss in saying Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda: Karo to sahi, shuru to karo. Bhagwan bole 'satatam kirtayanto' sab samay bhagwan ka kirtan karo aur sab samay nahi hota hai to jahan tak hota hai karo, lekin karo. (break) Kirtan karo baith ke. (Do it, start at least . The Lord said: 'satatam kirtayanto' all time sing the glories of the Lord. And if it's not possible to do all time, then do as much as you can, but start doing. (break) Sit down and do kirtana .) Indian lady: . . . (indistinct) . . . *Prabhupāda: Krodh, jaise Hanumān ji kiya tha. Jaise Hanuman ji wo Rāvan ka ghar jala diya. Bina krodh se koi kisika ghar jala sakta hai? To krodh ka aise vyavahar karo. To Rāvan ka ghar kyun jalaya? Ye bewakoof Sitā ji ko le aaya, badmash, uska ghar jala diya. Krodh . . . jo rakshas hai, bhagvan ka abhakt hai uske upar khub krodh karo. (Anger, like Hanumān ji had displayed? Like Hanumān ji had burnt down the house of Rāvana. Can anyone burn down a house without anger? So you should utilize anger in this way. So why did he burn down Rāvana's palace? This foolish rogue man kidnapped Sitā, so he burnt down his house. Whoever is demoniac, non*-devotee, you should be very angry on them.) Indian lady: Kabhi kabhi bahut jyada krodh ata hai. (I get very angry sometimes.) Prabhupāda: Bahut karo, jab ghar jala diya to baki kya reh hai . . . Abhi krodh kitna ho sakta hai? Utna krodh kahan ayega? Ap kisika ghar jala sakti ho? Hanumān ji ne kiya tha isliye Hanumān ji ka aj tak puja karte hain, kyunki krodh kiya tha. Bichare vendanta ko nahi padha tha, padhe to jane Krodh kiya lekin Rām ke liye, apne liye nahi kiya. Krodha ka vyavahr hai bhagwan ke liye. Jo Bhagvan ko maanta nahi aur bhakt ko takalif deta hai, uske upar khub krodh kijiye, ghar jala dijiye. Krodh ka bhi vyavahr hai, krodh hai to krodh dikhao kahan tak hai krodh. (Do more, When he burnt a house, what more is left . . . Now how much high can anger be? Where would you get that much anger? Can you burn down somebody's house? Hanumān ji did it that's why till today he is being worshipped, because he became angry. Poor guys, they dont read the scriptures, if they read they will get to know that he displayed anger but only for Rāma, not for himself. The use of anger is done for Lord's service. The one who does not believe in God, and gives trouble to devotees, you should be very angry with them, you should burn down their houses. There is proper use of anger as well. If you have anger then display that anger.) Indian lady: Krodh me to anisht bhi hota hai. (In anger, we perform forbidden things sometimes.) *Prabhupāda: Anisht hoye chod tum bhagvan ke liye karo. Hum bolta hai agar tumhare pas krodh hai to usko . . . ye krodh bhagvan ke liye vyavahar karo. Jaise Hanumān ji kiya tha. Hai to Māhājan hai 'Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ' (CC Madhya 17.186) Bade*-bade Māhājan bhakt log jaise kaam kiya hai . . . wo Hanumān ji ke pas krodh tha tabhi to wo kiya, to apke pas krodh hai ap bhi wese kijiye. Is prakar apka krodh jab vyavahar hojayega fir apko shanti milegi. (Leave about the forbidden things, you did it for the Lord. I am saying if you have anger . . . use that anger for the service of Lord. Just like Hanumān did it. He is a self-realized predecessor Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) Whatever is done by big big self realized predecessors, devotees . . . Hanumān ji had anger that's why he did it, so if you have anger you also utilize in the same way. In this way when you utilize your anger then you will find peace.) Indian man (2): . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda:' Kya puch raha hai? ( What is he asking?) Indian man: Kehta hai Bhagvan ka naam kis tarah liya jata hai mujhe batao. (He wants to know how to chant the name of the Lord.) *Prabhupāda: Kis tarah se leta hai dekhta nahi hai ap, phir kaise batayega apka jab ankh nahi hai. Ye sab kaise leta hai, din bhar kirtan karta hai. Ye koi mushkil hai kya? Dekho wo jaise karta hai waise karo, usme kya hai seekhna? Ye to baccha bhi kar lega. Us din baccha kirtan kiya na, usme seekhne ka kya hai? Jo dekhe usiko karo. Aaiye, han, aiiye. Dekh ke sikhna hota hai, jaise kaunsa bhi sevak hai . . . Hanumān ji se jake seekho . . . Jo dekh ke sikhta hai wo bada chalak hai. Ek aadmi ko zabardasti aise karo*-waise karo bolne se sikhta hai to usko der lagta hai aur jo dekh ke sikhta hai jaldi seekh jata hai, wo bada chatur hai. Adarsh . . . adarsh sab cheez ka hai, wo adarsh hum le aaye, yehi humlog ka pantha hai 'Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ' (CC Madhya 17.186). Bade-bade bhakt log jaise rasta dikhaye hain usko anusaran karo sab seekh jaoge. Tarko ’pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā (CC Madhya 17.186) Ye tark karke seekhna, wo tark karenge, hum unse jyada tark karenge, koi aur humse zyada tark karega, usse koi labh nahi hai. Aur yadi ved vedanta padhenge to hum dekhenge ved me kuch aur likha hai aur doosre ved me aur kuch likha hai aur darshnik vichar karenge 'Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam'(CC Madhya 17.186) aur ye muni ko daba nahi sakta hai to uska jo philosophy hai wo bhi thik nahi hai aise bata denge. (Aren't you seeing how they are chanting, then how can I explain if you don't have the eyes. How do they chant, they chant the whole day. Is it difficult? See how they are doing, you do like them, what is there to learn in this? Even a child can do this. That day the children chanted, what is there to learn? Whatever you have seen, you should do that. Come, please come. You must see by seeing, just as we have the devotees, go and learn from Hanumān ji . . . one who learns by seeing is very clever. If one forcibly keeps telling you to do like this, like that, then it takes time to learn but one who sees and learns, he learns quickly, he is very intelligent. Everything has got certain principles that we have brought. This is our belief system. Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) Whatever path the great devotees have shown ,just follow it and you will learn everything. Tarko ’pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā (CC Madhya 17.186)) Learning by giving arguments, he will give some argument, we will then try to add some more argument, and somebody else will give more argument than us, there is no benefit from these arguments. And if we study the vedanta then we know something else is written in the 'vedas', and in some other 'veda' there is some other thing which is written then we try to think philosophically. Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (CC Madhya 17.186) and if they can't suppress the saint, then whatever philosophy he has given, they just mark it as incorrect. *'Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ'(CC Madhya 17.186) isiliye jo dharma vastu hai uska tattva bada gambhir hai. To kis tarah se sikha jaye? 'Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ'(CC Madhya 17.186) Bade*-bade Māhājan jis tarah se rasta dikhaye hain usko follow karo. Hamare vedic niyam se sab māhān acharya hain, jaise aaj kal pehle Sri sampradaya, Rudra sampradaya, Brahma sampradaya, Kumar sampradaya, to shastra me sab bataya hai kaun-kaun mahajan hain: 'Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ prahlādo janako bhīṣmo balir vaiyāsakir vayam (ŚB 6.3.20) ye sab Māhājan hain. Naradji hain, Brahmaji hain, Mahadev Shivji hain, aur Kapil hain, Manu hain, Prahlād maharaj hain, Janak māhārāj hain, Bhishmadev hain, dwadash māhājan shastra me bataya gaya hai, wo log jaise jaise kaam kiya hai us tarah se hum log anusaran karen aur unko jo adarsh hai usko follow karen. ( Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ (CC Madhya 17.186) Therefore the matters related to dharma is very deep. So how should we learn it? Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) We should follow the path shown by the great self realized personalities. In our Vedic culture we have very great teachers as nowadays the Sri sampradaya, Rudra sampradaya, Brahma sampradaya, Kumar sampradaya. So all this is mentioned in the scriptures, who are the great personalities, Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ prahlādo janako bhīṣmo balir vaiyāsakir vayam (ŚB 6.3.20) these are the great personalities. We have Narad ji, Brahma ji, Mahadev Shiv ji, Kapila muni, Manu, Prahlād Māhārāj, Janak Māhārāj, Bhismadeva, these 12 great personalities are mentioned in the scriptures. We should follow the work they have done and follow their ideals.) Thank you. *Indian lady: . . .(indistinct) . . . Kalyug me kirtan se uddhar ho sakta hai. Bhagwan Kṛṣṇa Gita me kehte hain ki sthita*-pragya ke liye dhyan yoga. . . (. . . In Kali yuga by chanting the Lord's name one can be elevated. Lord Kṛṣṇa has said in the Gitā that for a person to be equipoised . . .) *Prabhupāda: Wo sthita*-pragya ho jayega Rām-naam karo. Bhagvan ka naam karo, bhagvan ka smaran karo. Rām ka naam liya to Rām ka to dhyan ho jayega. Dhanurdhari Rām, Sitāji baithe hain, Hanumān ji baithe hain, Lakshman ji hain, ye sab dhyan hogaya. Kya mushkil hai. Kisi ka naam lene se uska sab kaam dhyan me aata hai ki nahin, usi prakar aap yadi Rām ka naam lenge to sath sath Rām ka dhyan bhi ho jayega (verse). Yadi aap dhyanavastit hokar ke bhagvan ko dhyan karenge to fir yogi hogaye. Aur pehle se thik thak kar liya ki Rām ka haat nahi hai, pair nahi hai, naak nahi hai, aankh nahi hai, to kis par dhyan karnege. To keval klesh hoga. (verse) Bhgavan ka dhyan kijiye, Bhagvan ka naam lijiye, jo hogaya sawar lijiye. Shastra me bataya hai (verse). Dhyan ka, meditation ka arth kya hota hai. Jo man ko sab samay bhagvan ke charan me laga deta hai ye samadhi hai. (Chant the names of the Lord and you will become equipoised. Take the names of the Lord, remember Him. If you chant the names of Lord Rāma then automatically meditation happens on Lord Lord Rāma. Lord Rāma with bow and arrow, Sitā seated next to Him, Hanumān ji is also sitting and Lakshman is there, all this is meditation. What is the difficulty? When you take a person's name, all his activities will come to your mind or not. Similarly if you take Lord Rāma's name then automatically you will meditate on the Lord. (verse). If you meditate with single minded devotion towards to Lord then you will become a yogi. And beforehand if you fix that Lord Rāma does not have hands, does not have legs, does not either eyes or ears then what will you meditate on. Then there will be only tribulation. (verse). Meditate on the Lord, take the names of the Lord, fix everything. In the scriptures it is said (verse). What is the meaning of meditation? One who focuses his mind all the time on the lotus feet of the Lord, that is trance.) *Indian man: Bhagvan ki siddhi aur moksh prapt karne ke raste ek hi hai ya alag*-alag? (Are the ways of obtaining mystic powers and liberation one and the same?) Prabhupāda: Moksh ka arth aap kya samjhte hain? (What do you understand the meaning of liberation?) Indian man: Shakti, jaise shakt log hain shakti ko prapt karte hain. (Power, like how we have the 'shakta's' who aquire the power.) *Prabhupāda: Shakti me moksh nahi hai. Shakti, ye material power . . . (indistinct) . . . usme moksh nahi hai. Material power usko shakti 'dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpa*-pati-bhājaṁ dehi' lo usko aur phas jao. Ye sab duniya me jo power chahte hain wo phas jate hain ki nahin, ye aapko maloom hai ki nahin. To duniya ka shakti labh hone se, aap phas jaiyega yahi labhi hoga. Wo to moksh nahi hai, wo to phasne wala baat hai. Shakti ye nimn star ka vyajan hai, ye duniya ka power chahte hain, jo shakti upasak hai. Ye shakti analysis karke dekhte hai aag me shakti jyada hai to agni upasak ho jate hain. Aur fir jo aag pe analysis karke dekhta hai, jo aag jo aata hai wo surya ke agni se aata hai, to surya ka upasak hai. Ye shakto. Isi tarah shakt aur kya nam hai danapatta, aur souryo . . . ye sab panch upasana hai . . . (indistinct) . . . It is gradual state. To asal me vishnu upasana hi mukhya hai. (verse) to jitna upasana hai wo sab karte-karte jab usko theek chiz maloom hoga 'ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param' (Padma Purāṇa). To sadharan vyakti nahi jante hain (verse) to sartha gatim kya hai jante nahi he isliye kabhi shakti me phas jate hain, kabhi agni me fas jate hain, pancha-upasak. Aur swayam Vishnu aa karke bata rahe hain tum ye sab chodo 'sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ' (BG 16.66) usme tumhara sab labh hai. (verse) Aur jisko Bhagwan ka krpa labh ho gaya wo aur kisika kripa nahi chahte hain. (There is no lieration in power. 'Shakti', this is material power . . . there is no liberation in that. Acquiring material power 'dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpa-pati-bhājaṁ dehi' and getting more entangled. All the people in the world who want power, don't they get trapped, do you know this or not? So if you get the material power, you will get entangled more and that's the only benefit. That is not liberation, that is entanglement. Power is a low form of energy, whoever are the worshippers of power, they want power of this world. The analyze this power and see, there is power in the fire, so they become worshippers of fire. Now they analyze the fire and they find out this fire actually comes from Sun's heat , then they become worshippers of the Sun. Like this there are 'Shakta's' , 'Shouryo' . . . there are five types of worshippers . . . (indistinct) . . . It is gradual state. So in reality, worship of Lord Vishnu is the most important. So out of all the different kinds of worship, after doing everything when he realizes the correct thing 'ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param' (Padma Purāṇa). So normal people do not know this, and they sometimes get stuck in power, or fire . . . they get stuck in the worship of these five types. And Lord Vishnu himself comes and tells, you leave all this sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (BG 16.66, your benefit is in that.) And whoever has received the blessings of the lord, they don't need blessings from anyone else. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) . . . Ishwar darshan, bhagvan darshan kya hai? (What does the darshan of God mean?) Prabhupāda: Pehle to aapko ye nischit karna chahiye ki kiska darshan chahte hain. Abhi to bataya na shakti, daanpatra, souryo anek prakar upasana hai. Aapko kya chahiye tab bataya jayega kis tarah se upasana karne se labh milega. (First you must decide whose darshan you want to have. Just now I mentioned 'Shakta' , 'Shouryo', there are different kinds of worship. Which one you want, then we can say how to perform the worship to get the benefit.) First of all you must fix up what you want. Indian man (1): What is realization? Prabhupāda: Realization—everything is realization. If you can do business well, that is also realization. Indian man (1): Realization of God. Prabhupāda: Then you, if you want . . . Indian man (1): Realization of God. Prabhupāda: Realization of God, To wo to Bhagwan bata rahe hain (So Lord is saying), bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). So "If you want to know Me, then bhaktyā , bhakti ." Ye to bataye nahi gyan se, karma se, yog se humko mil sakte hain, nahi. (It is not said that you will obtain God by knowledge, by duty, by yoga , no.) Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ . If you want to know God really, then you have to take this path, bhakti . If you want something else, that is a different thing. *Pehle to aapko fix*-up hona chahiye ki aapko chahiye kya. (First you have to decide what it is that you want.) Indian man: Aur Prabhupāda, ye sākār aur nirākār me kaafi matbhed chalta hai. Sākār samne pratyaksh murti rakne se, hriday me dhyan ekatrit karke aur kendrit karke hum puja kar sakte hain, bhakti kar sakte hain, lekin nirākār me dhyan nahi jamta hai. To apka iske bare me kya vichar hai aur . . . (And Prabhupāda, there is a lot of difference of opinion in the form and formless formless feature of the Lord. In the form, we can keep the Deity in front of us, meditate in our mind and worship the Deity and do devotion but in formless we cannot meditate. So what is your view on this and . . .) Prabhupāda: Ye nirākār ka arth pehle samajhiye. Nirākār aakār ko nakharch kar dena, Nirākār - aakar hai baki usko nakharch karke . . . (indistinct) . . . To bhagvan jo hai wo dekhta hai baki uska aankh nahi hai. Aise ye sab vichar, to ab sochna chahihye ki aankh nahi hai to dekhta kaise hai, ye vichar karna hai (verse). Ye achaksur jo hai nirākār hai aur pashyati jo hai wo aakār. (Try to understand the meaning of the word formless first. Formless means to break the form, form is there but . . . (indistinct) . . . We say the Lord is seeing everything but he doesn't have eyes. These thoughts are going on, now one should contemplate if there are no eyes then how is he seeing, you should think about this. (verse) This 'achaksur' is formless and 'pashyati' is form.) *Isliye aapko nischay karna chahiye ki bhagvan dekhta hai, baki wo unka hamara jaisa aankh nahi hai, ye nirākār hai. Hum jaise dekh rahe hain, ye kamre ke bhitar sab dekh rahe hain aur diwar ke udhar kya hai dekh nahi sakte. Aur jo bhagvan hai wo sab dekhta hai (verse) sab jagah unka haat hai , pair hai. Isliye vichar karna chahiye ki bhagvan ka haat, pair sabhi hai baki hamare jaise nahin hai. Ye vichar karna chahiye. Jo ye hamara jaise hai hi nahi wo nirākār hai aur unka jo haat*-pair hai wo aakār. Isliye shastra me bataya hai 'ISVARA PARAMA KRISHNA SACHIDANANDA VIGRAHA ANADIR AADIR GOVINDA SARVA KARANA KARANAM'. Unka jo vigrah hai, aakār hai wo sacidanand hai, sac-cit-anand. To jahan sacidanand kaha gaya hai ye jo sharir hai ye nirākār hai, kyunki ye jo sharir hai ye sat nahi hai, asat, (verse). Ye sharir to naash ho jayega. Bhagvan ka sharir hai baki maas-mans sharir nahi hai. Isliye bhagvan kehte hain mai jab aata hoon to ye moorkh log samjhte hai ki sadharan manushya jaisa hai 'avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā' mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam' (BG 9.11). (Therefore first you should decide that God can see, but he does not have eyes like us, this is formless. Like how we are able to see what is inside this room but what is there behind the wall we can't see. But the Lord can see everything, (verse). He has his hands and legs everywhere. So we must think that His hands and legs are there but not like ours. So this must be considered. So the one which is not like us, is formless and the hands and legs which the Lord has is the form. Hence it is said in the scriptures that ISVARA PARAMA KRISHNA SACHIDANANDA VIGRAHA ANADIR AADIR GOVINDA SARVA KARANA KARANAM Lord's deity, the form , is sac-cit-ananda , full of eternity, knowledge and bliss. So where it is said eternity, knowledge and bliss, but this body of ours is not eternal, it is temporary (verse) This body will perish. God's form is there but not made of flesh and bones. So God says, when I descend these rascals think that I am an ordinary person like them Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā' mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11)) *Kyunki ye do haat*-payr leke main aaya hoon to moorkh log samjhte hai ki hamara jaise koi vyakti hai baki wo sachidananda vigrah hai. 'sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā' (BG 4.6) ye sab vachan hai Bhagavad-Gita me. Bhagvan ka jo sharir hai wo hamara jaisa sharir nahi hai 'janma karma ca me divyam' (BG 4.9). To bhagvan ka sharir kya hai usko agar samajh jaye to wo . . . baki wo samajhta nahi hai, wo samajhta hai hamara jaisa vyakti hai aur unko ye mayavadi log kehte hai jab bhagvan aate hai to maya ka sharir dharan karke aate hain. To nirākār ka artha hota hai bhagvan ka bhautik sharir nahi hai. Bhagvan ka sharir hai sac-cit-anand vigraha. Agar sacidanand vigraha nahi hota to 7 varsh ke umar me koi pahad utha sakta hai, boliye. (Just because I have appeared with 2 hands and legs, these rascals think that He is a person like us, but he is sac-cit-ananda vigraha sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6). All these statements are given in the Bhagavad-gita . The form of God is not like ours. janma karma ca me divyam (BG 4.9) So if one understands the form of God then . . . but he does not understand and thinks the Lord is like one of us, and to this the impersonalists say that whenever God appears He comes with this maya form. So the meaning of formless is that God does not have a material form like us. God's form is full of eternity, knowledge and bliss. If His form was not eternal, full of knowledge and bliss then how could a 7 year old lift such a big mountain on a little finger, tell me.) Indian man: Mera matlab ye tha prabhuji ki jab hum puja karte hain baithte hain agar samne murti hoti hai Bhagwan ki sākār murti ho ya chitra ho, to us par dhyan jaldi aakarshit hota hai, kendrit hota hai. Lekin agar hum bina murti ke dhyan karne baithe nirākār ka, to wo dhyan kendrit ho nahi pata hai. To kya koi jariya hai sākār ke dwara nirākār pahuchne ka? (I meant to say this Prabhuji that if we sit in front of the Deity or a photo of God to worship Him, then our mind gets drawn to the Deity very quickly. But if we sit meditating on the formless, then it's very difficult to focus and meditate. So is there any way to achieve the formless through the form?) *Prabhupāda: Nirākār kyun pahunchega, nirākār pahuchna nahi hai. Wo aap jante nahi je bhagvan ka aakār kya hai. Wo agyan ko door kijiye. Bhagvan to nirākār hai hi nahi, sachidanand vigraha. Vigraha ka arth hota hai murti. To fir bhagvan ke murti ko aap nirakar karne kyun chahte hain. Aur jo nirākār karne ko chahte hai usko 'kleśo ’dhika*-taras teṣām' (BG 12.5) usko adhik klesh hota hai, aur kuch nahi milta hai. (Why would he reach the formless, he doesn not have to reach the formless. You don't know that the Lord has a form. Remove this ignorance first. God is not formless, He is sac-cid-ananda . The meaning of 'Vigraha' is Deity. Why do you want to make God's Deity formless? And one who wants to make Him formless, he suffers a lot, kleśo ’dhika-taras teṣām (BG 12.5) he does not get anything.) Find out this verse. Indian man: Aisa shastron me bataya gaya hai kali kaal me . . .(indistinct) . . . (It is mentioned in the scriptures that in this 'Kali yuga' . . .) (break) Prabhupāda: Pehle samjhiye Bhagvan nirākār nahi hai. Bhagvan ka aakār hai baki . . . (First of all understand that God is not formless. God has a form . . .) Somebody . . . why don't you send? What they are doing, all these rascals, that they cannot read? Devotee: Someone should come in? Prabhupāda: Yes. But they do not know that somebody should remain there. Why they are there? What they are doing there? Hari-śauri: Harikeśa is typing. Pradyumna is reading Sanskrit books. *Prabhupāda: Just see. Send Pradyumna immediately. Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām avyaktasakta*-cetasam. Kleśa . Beginning with kleśa . (devotees tries to find verse) You could not? Kleśa . K-l-e-s . Why don't you come here? And who will find out? Come here. Devotee: Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām ? *Prabhupāda: Why do you say that you do not find? Find out. They are not accustomed. Kleśo'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta*-cetasām (BG 12.5). Ye bhagvan swayam bata diya, jo nirākār bhajan karne wala hai uska kewal klesh adhik hota hai. To apko klesh hua to wo to hoga hi. Ye to shastra me bata diya. Apko sukh kaise hoga. Jab shastra batata hai adhik klesha, jisko adhik klesh usko sukh kaise hoga. (The Lord himself has already said, one who worships the formless, for him only tribulation increases. So if you are having to suffer, then it was bound to happen. This is already told in the scriptures. How will you feel happiness? When the scripture says too much suffering, then how can one who is suffering get happiness.) (Pradyumna enters) Read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Ah. Avyaktā hi gatir duḥkham. Avyakta chintan karne kewal dukh labh hota hai aur kuch labh nahi Read it. (If you meditate on the unmanifested form then you get only sadness, nothing else.) Pradyumna: "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied." Prabhupāda: Yes. Wo rasta ko pakadne se apko klesh adhik hoga, Bhagvan khud bata rahe hain, to apko sukh kaise milega. (The Lord himself says, if you take that path then you have to suffer a lot. So how will you get happiness? You are expecting happiness by thinking of impersonal form of the Lord. That is not possible. You simply get troubles, that's all. Ye to aap buddhiman hain, bhagyavan hain, jiska apko anubhav hua hai. Aur jo moorkh hota hai usko klesh bhi hota hai aur wohi rasta me jata hai. Wo janta hai usme klesh hota hai phir usi me jata hai. Aisa moorkh hota hai. Apko to bhagvan kripa kiya. Koi chahte hain ki khushi se hum klesh uttaye, wo moorkh jati hai. Ye buddhiman klesh ke rasta me kyun jaye. Isme anand hota hai idhar Bhagvan ka murti hai, dekho kitna sundar sajaya hai, nach rahe hain, gaa rahe hain, isme anand hai. Nirākār kuch nahi hai. (You are intelligent, and fortunate that you are experiencing this. And one who is foolish suffers and still continues on the same path. He knows that the path is full of suffering but still goes on that path. Such foolishness. God has showered His mercy on you. No one wants to take suffering happily, such people are rascals. Why should the intelligent person go on the path of suffering? Is there happiness? Here we have God's Deity, see how nicely it is decorated, they are dancing, they are singing - this is happiness, bliss. There is no formlessness.) What is the purport? *Pradyumna: "The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jñāna*-yogis , and persons who are in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord, are called bhakti-yogis . Now here the difference between jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed." *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa personally says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). To aap agyan panth ka kyun lijiye. Yadi aap bhagvan ko janane ko chahte hain, bhagvan bata rahe hain 'bhaktya mam abhijanati' to aap agyan panth kyun lenge. Fir apko klesh hoga (verse) To jo . . . Bhagvan sab bata diya hai, do rasta hai (verse) jo abhakton me aasakt hain usko adhik klesh hota hai. (Why do you want to take the ignorant path? If you want to know God, then God himself is saying " bhaktya mam abhijanati " then why will you take the path of ignorance? Then you will have suffering (verse). So, the Lord has already mentioned, there are 2 ways (verse), the one who is attached to non*-devotees gets more suffering.) So If you like to tolerate adhik-kleśa , that is your choice. Otherwise, Bhagavān, sac-cid-ānanda . . . Srivigraha ka aaradhan kijiye, usko sajaiye, sabko khane ko dijiye, prasad paiye, kirtan kijiye, dance kijiye, dekhiye anand milega. To anand ka path chod karke aagar klesh ka path lijiyega to ye aapke kushi ke baat hai. (Worship the Deity, decorate it, Offer food to the deities , feed prasadam to everyone, you also honor prasadam , perform congregational chanting, dancing and you will get bliss. So if you discard the path of bliss and take the path of suffering, it is your choice.) You can accept any way. That is your choice. *Ye sab shastra me hai. (All this is given in the scriptures.) Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa vigraha. Sac-cid-ānanda vigraha (BS 5.1). *Nirākār kyon? Artificially wo vigraha bhagvan ko nirākār karne ko kyun chahte hain. Isme apko kya labh hoga. Isko jawab dijiye. Aap bahut accha sākār se nirākār jayenge. Jab bhagvan ka sacidananda vigraha mauzood hai aap wahan se phir, nirākār roop bhi unka hai, sabhi to wohi hai 'brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate' (SB 1.2.11). To bhagvan aakhir roop hai. To bhagvan ka roop chod karke . . . jaise Suryadev hai. Wo suryadev suryalok me hai aur unka sab chata . . . to Suryadev ka sharir ka prakash se ye sab prakash hai, to udhar se idhar aane ka jaroorat kya hai, idhar se udhar jaiye. Surya ka jo prakash hai, roudra dhoop hai, dhoop se aahiste*-aashiste suryalok me jaiye. Suryalok me jake suryadev ka darshan kariye, ye paddhati hai. Aap suryalok me gaya, suryadev ka darshan kiya, chalo fir dhoop me chalo, ye kaun sa vichar hai, boliye. Idhar se udhar jayenge na udhar se idhar aayenge. Jisko bhakti hai usko gyan yog hai. Jisko bhakti hai wo bina gyan bhakt kaise hoga. (Why formless? Why do they want to artificially make the Deity of God formless? What benefit do you get from it? Answer this. You will go very nicely from form to formless. When God's form of eternity, bliss and knowledge is there, He is also formless, He is everything. brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). So ultimately God has form. Then why do you forget His form? Like how we have Sun God. The Sun God is in the sun planet and all his rays, the sunshine from the sun's body illuminates everything. Then what is the need to come from there to here, instead go from here to there. The light of the sun, the heat - from the sunshine, he gradually enters into the sun planet. Enter into the sun's planet and have darshan of Sun God, this is the process. And he goes to the Sun planet, gets darshan of the Sun God and then again comes out in the sun, what's these kind of thoughts called, tell me. Will you go from here to there or come from there to here . . . one who has devotion, has got knowledge. One who has devotion, how will he become devotee without knowledge?) *Jab tak purna gyan usko nahi hota ki bhagvan ye hai 'bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ' (BG 7.19) jab tak apko purna gyan nahi hoga to bhagvan ko kaise samjhenge. Bhagvan ko samajhna kya sadharan baat hai 'manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ' (BG 7.3). To bhagvan ko samajhna aisa maamuli baat hai kya. Hazaron-karodo aadmi siddhi labh karne ke liye prayatna karte hain aur jo siddhi labh kiye hue hain usme abhi tak koi bhagvan ko janta nahi. Gyan purna ho jayega to bhagvan ko samajh jayenge. Jab bhagvan ko jante nahin, uske gyan ka kya mulya hai. Vo to agyan hai 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.15). Ved-vedanta ko padh kar bhi yadi bhagvan ko nahi samjha, to phir apke gyan ka kya fayda hua. (Until he has complete knowledge, that God is this: Unless you have complete knowledge, how will you understand God? Is it an ordinary thing to understand God? So is it such a simple thing to understand God? Thousands and crores of people are trying to obtain mystic powers and out of those who have got these powers, no one has understood God yet. When the knowledge is complete, then you will understand God. When you don't know God, what is the value of your knowledge? That is ignorance. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo (BG 15.15) Even after reading so many scriptures - the vedas , the vedanta —if one has not understood God, then what is the use of such knowledge?) Indian lady: . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhakti yog ke liye to prem ki jarurat hai. (To perform bhakti yog, we need love.) Prabhupāda: Sastra vachan dekhiye, ki jiska gyan nahi hai wo kya bhagwan ko samjhega. To isliye jo bhagwan ko samjha hai usko gyan jarur hai. Aur jo bhagwan ko samjha nahi uska gyan ka kya kimat. 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.14) Ved ka artha hota hai gyan to sab ved ka uddesya kya hai? Ki Bhagwan ko samarpan karna. Aur yadi wahan tak ap pahunche nahi Bhagwan kya chiz he nahi samjhte hain, to apko gyani kehne ka kya matlab hai, wo to agyani hai. Aisa to gyan, jo mistri hai usko bhi kuch gyan hai. Thoda bahut gyan sabhi ka hota hai. Gyan sabhi ko hota hai, bacha ko bhi hota hai. Jiv matr ko kuch na kuch gyan hota hai. Kuch Kuch gyan ka baat nahi he, purna gyan. Jo purna gyan hai wo Bhagwan ko samjehnge. Uska naam purna gyan. (See the statements of the scriptures, the one who doesn't have the knowledge, what will he understand God. So the one who has understood God, he definitely has knowledge. And the one who did not understand God, what is the value of his knowledge. 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.14) The meaning of 'ved' is knowledge, so what is the purpose of all the scriptures? To surrender to the supreme Lord. And if you haven't reached there, and did not understand what is God then what is the meaning of calling you a 'Gyani', he is called as ignorant. Even a craftsman has some knowledge. Little bit knowledge is there with everyone. Even a child has some knowledge. Every being has some or the other knowledge. But we are not talking about little knowledge . . . complete knowledge. One who has complete knowledge can understand the Lord. That's known as complete knowledge. ) Indian lady: Prabhuji ahankār ko kis tarah mitaya jaye? (Prabhuji how to get rid of ego?) *Prabhupāda: To ahankār . . . jab tak ap samjhke baithe ho ki hum bada gyani hai to ahankār kaise jayega? So pehle apne ko samjhna hai maha*-murkha hai tab apko jayega. Jab tak ap ye nahi samjhenge ki hum maha-murkh hai tab tak ap agyani rahenge. (So, ego . . . till the point you believe I am very knowledgeable then how will ego go? So first you must consider yourself as a great fool, then ego will disappear. Till the time you don't consider yourself as a great fool, you will stay ignorant.) . . . (indistinct conversation) . . . Indian lady: Hum kal bhi aye the apke darshan ke liye magar time hogaya tha. Mummy aur papa bhi . . . (We came yesterday as well to see you, but it was late. Mom and dad also . . .) Prabhupāda: Acha. Abhi sab aye hain? (Okay. Everyone has come today?) Indian lady: Hum log prabhuji shayad is mahine me ja rahe hain . . . (inidistinct) . . . (We are planning to go this month Prabhuji . . .) Prabhupāda: Jaiye. Abhi to hum logon ko bhari palace he . . . Wo makan banane me , 50 varsha pehle 6 million dollar kharcha hua tha. Paris me hai bahut bada. (Please go. Now we have a big palace . . . It cost 6 million dollar to build that place 50 years ago. There's a big one in Paris.) Indian lady: Guruji ek baat hai, kehte hain kuch log ki tum puja karte ho path karte ho, ek ghanta do ghanta karte ho lekin agar tumhara dhyan nahi laga to vyarth hai. To pura dhyan nahi lagta to hume nahi karna chahiye? Jaise hum kar rahe hain kuch adha ghanta, ek ghanta . . . dusre log kehte hain tum ek ghanta baithi ho tumne puja kiya, to tumhara ek ghanta dhyan laga? Yadi nahi laga to tum do minute kyun nahi karte ho, to fir kya karna chahiye? Agar man lijiye hamara puri tarah dhyan nahi laga to kya puja nahi karni chahiye? (Guruji there is 1 thing, some people say you worship for half and hour or 1 hour but if your mind is not fixed then it's all waste. So if we are not able to concentrate fully then what should we do? Like we sit for half an hour or 1 hour . . . and other people say, you sat for 1 hour and you did worship, so were you able to concentrate for that 1 hour? If not, then why don't you sit just for 2 mins, so what should be done in that case? So suppose we don't have any concentration, what should be done in that case?) *Prabhupāda: Iska vichar bahut bhari hai. Ap Bhagavad*-gītā padhiye. Unme sab baat bataya gaya hai. Kuch log kehte hai, aise bahut se log hain wo sab kehne se kya labh. (This idea is very deep. You read Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is mentioned there. Some people say, like this many people keep saying what's the use of that.) Indian lady: . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda: Vishay to apko chahiye. Mind khali nahi reh sakta hai. Ek chiz ko chodiye to aur ek chiz ye me hoga. To Kṛṣṇa ko lijiye to nirvisay hoga. Aur Kṛṣṇa ko nahi lijiyega to visay me rahega. Bhakti yog ka artha hota hai vairagya yog. Aiye, ap piche kyun hai? Abhi aye kya? (You need some topic. Mind can't remain ideal. If you leave one topic, it will go to other. So take your mind to Kṛṣṇa and then it will become out of topics. And if you don't take to Kṛṣṇa then you will always still in the thoughts. The meaning of Bhakti yog is yog of detachment. Come, why are you sitting back? Did you come now?) Indian lady: Nahi bahut der se hain (No I came from a long time.) *Prabhupāda: Acha tabhi thik hai. Lochan Dasa Thakura geet gaya hai 'Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā' Jo bhagwat ras me jamne ke liye visahy ras chodna padega. 'viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā mukhe bolo hari hari'. Bhagwan bhi bataya hai ek jagah (Okay it's alright then. Lochan Dasa Thakura has sung: Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā To merge in the mellows of the supreme, you need to leave the material things. Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā mukhe bolo hari hari The Lord has also said in one place:) Bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām Find out this verse. Jyada vishay, bhog aiswarya me jiska man laga hai wo samadhi me aa nahi sakta hai. (If one is too much involved in material sense gratification then he can't go into trance.) Find it out. Pradyumna: "In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination of devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place." Prabhupāda: This qualification. Surendra Kumar Saigal: Your Divine Grace, how long are you staying at Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: I'm going . . . oh, Vṛndāvana? Three weeks. Surendra Kumar Saigal: When you are . . . Prabhupāda: Any time you are home. Surendra Kumar Saigal: Any time which is convenient to Your Divine Grace. Shall I come over to Vṛndāvana on the 15th evening? Fifteenth evening, I'll come over to Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Surendra Kumar Saigal: And then what is the program? Your Divine Grace is coming back to Delhi from Vṛndāvana after three weeks' stay? Prabhupāda: They have made program to go to Chandigarh. *Surendra Kumar Saigal: Chandigarh. You can . . . (indistinct) . . . Aligarh. Your Divine Grace can go to Aligarh to Delhi. The route is almost the same distance from here to Vṛndāvana. And you can go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh. About five miles, eight miles difference. It won't cost you much mileage*-wise. Prabhupāda: Udhar . . .(indistinct) . . . ka koi jhanjhat hai? (Is there any complication about this? . . .) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. The road is okay. You said we should go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh? Surendra Kumar Saigal: In my opinion you should. I heard that road is very bad. Five or six kilometers they have raised the road by about six, seven feet, and all this is all mud and muck, and the car skids. In my opinion, you go via Aligarh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Or we can come to Aligarh from Vṛndāvana. Surendra Kumar Saigal: I'm suggesting because I don't want to . . . (indistinct) . . . go back to Vṛndāvana and then come . . . (indistinct) . . . (Gopāla Kṛṣṇa converses with Indians about which road to take) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . *Pradyumna: Bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ . . . purport? Purport: " Samādhi means 'fixed mind.' The Vedic dictionary, the Nirukti, says, samyag ādhīyate 'sminn ātmatattva-yāthātmyam : 'When the mind is fixed for understanding the self, it is called samādhi .' Samādhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment, nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things. They are more or less condemned by the process of material energy." *Prabhupāda: Yehi agyan hai ki thodi der ke liye ye bhautik sukh me aaplog fas jate hain aur usise hamara agyan chaloo hota hai. Shastra adi paath karne se sab gyan milta hai vishesh karke Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Aap usko padh rahe hain ki nahin? (This is the ignorance that for a short period you get entangled in these material comforts and from that our ignorance begins. By reading the scriptures we get all knowledge, especially Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Are you reading it or not? ) *Prahlāda Mahārāja yahi bataye hain 'śoce tato vimukha*-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān' (SB 7.9.43) Hamare liye to koi dukh nahi hai, hum to kahin bhi baith jayenge aur apka naam, gun kirtan karenge. Baki hamara sochne ka jo cheez hai, ye moorkh log thode der ke bhautik sukh ke liye itna parishram karte hain, great arrangement. 'Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato' Sukh to sthayi nahi hai. Sukh to hai hi nahi, 10 sal, 20, sal, 50 sal, zyada se zyada 100 sal. 'Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato' bharam bolta hai na to God jaisa lagta hai, to ye vimudha jo hai, 'ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā' (Prahlāda Maharaj has said this śoce tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43) There is no sorrow for us, we will sit anywhere and start singing your name and glories. But the thing which we have to consider is : these rascals are working so hard day and night for a flickering moment of happiness. They are making great arrangements. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato Happiness is not permanent. There is no happiness, may be 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, maximum 100 years. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato So because of the illusion we feel ourselves as God, so this is ignorant ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā ) *Vimudha bataya ye log kya vastvik sukh hai jante nahi, jaisa ek balak hai, wo uska life ka jo purpose hai, education lena, age jake usko bahut kuch karna padega . . . to isi prakar hum log vimudh hai je jivan ka uddeshya kya hai, kis liye humko manushya jivan mila hai, kya chahiye, ye sab kuch vyavasta nahi karte, kewal acchi tarah se khayenge, achi tarah se soyenge, maza karenge, 'Māyā*-sukhāya', acchi tarah se ye sab bhog nahi kar sakega, usme bhi bahut zhanzhat hai. Thoda achi tarah se bhog karne ke liye jo vastu ki jarurat hai, sabko paisa to milta nahi, wo bhi bhagvan ki kripa se milta hai, nahi to sabhi bada aadmi ho jata tha usko paisa khub milta. Ek aadmi din bhar parishram karta hai usko khane ko do roti nahi milta hai. Roti sabhi ko milta hai, kutta ko bhi milta hai. Aur ek aadmi thoda hi parishram kiya aur bahut rupaya milta hai. Ye bhagvan dene se milta hai, ye nischit hai. Jisko bhagwan deta hai usko milta hai. Wo apna destiny lekar aata hai. Jabardasti humko zyada parishram karne se jyada mil jayega, ye bhul dharana hai (verse) so utna hi apko milega jitna apko hak hai, destiny. Lekin dukh, dukh ko koi bulata nahi tabhi dukh pahunch jata hai . . . Jisko jitna dukh milna hai wo milega, to sastra kehte hain jitna apko sukh milna ko hai wo milega, to uske liye prayas karna. Wo jitna tumko milna hai mil jayega thik time pe. Tum prayas karo kis tarah se bhagwan ko samajh sakte ho, uske liye prayas karo. (verse) Kyunki janm-janmantar gaya bhagvan ko samajha nahi, upar-niche bahut ghoome, kabhi swarglok me gaya, kabhi nark me gaya, sab doondh ke aya hai . . . ab jo manushya jivan mila hai ab bhagvan ke liye koshish karo, mil jayega, aur sukh-dukh ke liye tumhara jitna destiny hai wo mil jaygega. Adhik prayas karne ka koi jaroorat nahi. (Ignorant person doesn't know what is real happiness, just like a child, what is the purpose of his life? To get education, going forward he has to achieve a lot . . . similarly we are ignorant, what is the purpose of our life? Why have we got this human form of life? What do we want? We do not organize these matters, only eat nicely, have fun, sleep, " maya sukhaya " but he will not be able to enjoy these pleasures as well nicely, there are a lot of complications in this. To enjoy sense gratification we need resources, everyone doesn't get money, that also is received by the mercy of God, otherwise everyone would have become a rich man. One man works hard day and night and he doesn't get a square meal a day. Everybody gets a piece of bread, even a dog. On the other hand, another man puts just little effort but gets lots of money. He gets this only if God gives it, this is certain. Whoever the Lord gives, he receives it. He brings along his destiny. Forcibly if we work very hard then we will get more, that is a misconception (verse). So you will only get that much on which you have the rights, destiny. But sadness, nobody invites it but still it comes. How much one has to suffer, he will suffer. The scripture says, how much ever happiness you have to get you will get, no need to work very hard. The one which you are destined to receive, you will receive at the correct time. You should endeavor how to understand God. Because life after life has passed and we have not understood God, we have traveled in the lower planets and the upper planets, sometimes went to heavenly planets and sometimes to hellish planets, we searched everywhere and came back. Now that you have got the human form of life, try to reach for God and you will get Him. And for happiness and distress whatever is there in your destiny you will get, no need to put in an extra effort. (verse).) You have got that? *Pradyumna: Na tat*-prayāsaḥ kartavyam . Prabhupāda: What is that? *Harikeśa: Some mahā*-prasādam . Prabhupāda: For me? Harikeśa: They are offering it to you. *Prabhupāda: Na tat*-prayāsaḥ kartavyam . (aside) He can go. You can go. You have . . . (indistinct) . . . now. Ye mahine ke aakhir me, is mahine ke aakhir me Septmeber. (At the end of this month, at the end of this month, September.) He . . . her son—he is the father and mother—he's an Indian, in Detroit, very good boy, getting very nice. He, living in the temple, husband and wife, child we have. Bachā, ek bachā? (Children, one child?) He's getting very happy, very nice boy. Hamara ye sanstha me Indian koi join karta hai to udhar se hi karta hai, idhar se nahi karta hai. (In this organization if some Indian joins, then it's only from that part, they don't join from this part.) Just like their son, he's educated very nicely. Educated boys are joining from foreign countries, and not from here. Iska kya karan hai boliye. (Tell me what should we do for this.) . . . (indistinct) . . . *Ye jo Gopāla Kṛṣṇa hain ye bhi udhar se hi join hue the, he was sales manager in Coca*-Cola. Usko 15000 dollar milta hai yearly, 15000 dollar kitna hota hai? 1200 mil sakta hai, 12000 milna koi sadharan baat nahi hai. Aisa aur ek beta hai, wo bhi engineer hai, Yashomatinandan, gujrati, uska maa-baap hai. To do-char jo Indians padhe-likhe hain wo udhar se hi join hote hain. (Gopāla Kṛṣṇa had also joined from there, he was sales manager in Coca-Cola. He gets 15,000 dollars annually. How much is 15,000 dollars. He can get 1,200, is it such a small thing to get 12,000.There is one more son like this,he is also an engineer, Yasomatinandana, Gujarati, he has parents. So 2 to 4 educated Indians have all joined from there.) . . . (indistinct) . . . you have got that book? Ah . . . Stillson Judah's? Pradyumna: No. It's in Bombay. We may have a copy in Vṛndāvana also. Prabhupāda: One professor, Stillson Judah, he has written one book. After studying our movement five years he has written one Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. Surendra Kumar Saigal: Counterculture. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. To bahut scientific research hai . . .Wo opinion diya hai . . . (So a lot of scientific research is there . . . they have given the opinion . . .) Pradyumna: Doesn't have a copy here. It's published by Princeton University Press. In their religion . . . in their set of volumes on different religions. Indian woman: . . . (indistinct) . . . prasādam . Prabhupāda: Aiiye, aiiye, aiiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa, bahut kripa hai, prasad do. (Please come. Hare Kṛṣṇa, we are fortunate, give them prasad .) (new guest arrives) Accha nahi hai tabiyat bahut hi kharab hai. (Health is not good, very poor condition.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Mr. Patnaik (Defense Minister): How are you, sir? Prabhupāda: Idhar aaye koi kaam tha? (You came here, any work?) You came here for some . . . Mr. Patnaik: Yes, then I thought I would go to your old place. The . . . (indistinct) . . . this was here . . . (indistinct) . . . the old place, I didn't get any response. There was nobody there now. But when you shifted from there? There is nobody there now. Prabhupāda: No. Mr. Patnaik: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And this place is better than that. Mr. Patnaik: Very much. Oh, yes. How long you will stay? Prabhupāda: I am going tomorrow, Vṛndāvana. Mr. Patnaik: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I'll be three weeks there. Mr. Patnaik: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Mr. Patnaik: Of course. *Prabhupāda: Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa*-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam . Ye to bhagvan aradya vastu hai, brajnandan Hari. (This is a worshipable God, Brajanandana Hari.) As He is worshipable, similarly, Vṛndāvana dhāma is also worshipable. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam ramya kācid upāsana vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā va kalpitā . Upāsana , vraja-vadhū , the vraja , damsels of vrajabhūmi , the gopīs, as they worship the Lord, there is no comparison to that process of worship. Vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā . Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvana . Mr. Patnaik: I think we are going there after Parliament session closes tomorrow . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Where? Vṛndāvana. Mr. Patnaik: Vṛndāvana . . . (indistinct) . . . then I was told that Mathurā and . . . (indistinct) . . . full. Prabhupāda: They spend so much money for the roadways; still it is not good. Mr. Patnaik: Draining the different levels, question arises, the water, the excessive in quantity, and the natural drains are not efficient enough to take it out . . . (indistinct) . . . I was told that . . . Prabhupāda: There is no sufficient outlet. Mr. Patnaik: Yes. But some of those āśrama , Mathurā, it's very deep, that four feet water in the āśramas . Three, four feet water. Prabhupāda: Within the āśramas ? Mr. Patnaik: And temple. You haven't recives any message from Vṛndāvana? Pradyumna: Our temple is all right. Raman Reti is not flooded where we are. It's almost up to Fogel Ashram in the back, Yamunā, but it has not come to our Raman Reti. Mr. Patnaik: And now you will remain here in India for some time? Prabhupāda: That I do not know. I, actually, now it is little troublesome for me to travel all the year. Mr. Patnaik: You are just gone from . . . (indistinct) . . . so when the guests arrive . . . Prabhupāda: Rest, if I rest then there may be . . . because I am dealing with all neophytes. If I don't keep them alive by personal presence . . . still, they are doing nice. I have appointed twenty secretaries all over the world. I am training them. They are managing. Managing nicely. I have been in New York and Los Angeles and Hawaii, all big, big centers. London, Paris. Mr. Patnaik: Oh, it's a very great. Your program for Kurukṣetra and etcetera and the . . . Prabhupāda: Program was that they promised to give me a land. Mr. Patnaik: Who? Prabhupāda: That Chief Minister. Mr. Patnaik: Have they done so? Prabhupāda: Not yet. Mr. Patnaik: I heard about two acres was available recently, except that it . . . (indistinct) . . . I wrote you that the manner in which approach was made upset those people. And the Minister, I later learned . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: We are trying for another big scheme in Bengal. We have applied to the government to acquire land, 350 acres, a big planetarium. Planetarium. We have described the planetarium in our Fifth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . In that planetarium it is said that the moon is above the sun planet, by one million six hundred thousand miles. Mr. Patnaik: What does astronomy say? The modern astronomy. Prabhupāda: They say the moon planet is nearer to earth planet, and they have gone there. Mr. Patnaik: Have you given up any idea about Kurukṣetra? Prabhupāda: No, no, not . . . Mr. Patnaik: No, because if you have the idea, the land is the least part of it, because so much is to be done . . . (indistinct) . . . if the idea is that something should be done. I learned that gentleman, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . and he has said that he will do something. I was not there at the time of the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (aside) You bring one little plate prasādam from there, from that . . . Mr. Patnaik: And you will be in Vṛndāvana for some . . . Prabhupāda: Three weeks. Mr. Patnaik: After that you don't know. After that where you go, you don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Patnaik: Well, this is God's work, Lord Kṛṣṇa's work. I am trying . . . (indistinct) . . . to cooperate with you, because nobody can do. Prabhupāda: No, you have done tremendous work. Mr. Patnaik: No, but which is very little considering the situation, the condition, problem in the country. I am at a lower level than your level than your work . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The one encouraging thing in this movement is that our books are being very much appreciated. In all universities, foreign and Indian, libraries, professors, learned scholars. Mr. Patnaik: Yes, they'll branch out and then . . . it's a great service. Prabhupāda: We are selling books to the extent of sixty thousand dollars daily. Mr. Patnaik: I see. Prabhupāda: That is our only hope, that we shall not be financially in difficulty. People are taking our books very nicely. People are accepting our literature. Mr. Patnaik: It is not that difficulties were not there also . . . (indistinct) . . . I don't have the support, but I feel . . . (indistinct) . . . find that several places the demand for this, for the acceptance also . . . (indistinct) . . . coming forward, but not in the manner in which I had wanted . . . (indistinct) . . . lakhs of people stand against the forces which want to . . . (indistinct) . . . religion and moral side. There should be a linking up of all those who want religion to remain and morality to also be there. Those forces have to be met by also organized force from the right kind of people, religious people . . . (indistinct) . . . I hope they are not coming in your way. Prabhupāda: No, no. Mr. Patnaik: I remember that you had written yourself that there is something we could do together. Possibly this question, building and all that, whenever it comes there. It is good to have that building and that land, but even before that, there is work to be done at the Kurukṣetra. *Prabhupāda: My point is that Kurukṣetra is the place where Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken. So if we take the words of Bhagavad-gita as it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, then people will be benefitted. Mr. Patnaik: That is basic, of course. The foundation. *Prabhupāda: But if we do not take the words of Bhagavad*-gītā , then moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). That I believe. (aside) Find out this verse. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo . Mr. Patnaik: That's true. I also believe that there must be a direct . . . Prabhupāda: No, why not direct? Mr. Patnaik: Putting in your interpretation, that is wrong. It should be direct. That doesn't mean only those people who have accepted this can come together. Prabhupāda: And why the others will not accept? Mr. Patnaik: No, we have made, you must have seen our literature, *Gītā* as a text, but still people may not judge . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, we should not depend on the people's acceptance only. We have to present *Gītā* as it is. Now everything is not accepted by everyone. Even if you make change, there is no guarantee that they will . . . Mr. Patnaik: No, no. Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not speaking to you. Anyone. Mr. Patnaik: I am not trying to make a show. I believe a direct interpretation is important thing more than the other kinds of ideas and conceptions. Pradyumna: "Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demoniac and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities and their culture of knowledge are all defeated." Prabhupāda: Go on. Go on. I have given any purport? *Pradyumna: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. "There are many devotees who assume themselves to be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and devotional service but at heart do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, as the Absolute Truth. For them, the fruit of devotional service—going back to Godhead—will never be tasted. Similarly, those who are engaged in fruitive, pious activities and who are ultimately hoping to be liberated from this material entanglement will never be successful either, because they deride the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. In other words, persons who mock Kṛṣṇa are to be understood to be demoniac or atheistic. As described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā , such demoniac miscreants never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore their mental speculations to arrive at the Absolute Truth bring them to the false conclusion that the ordinary living entity and Kṛṣṇa are one and the same. With such a false conviction, they think that the body of any human being is now simply covered by material nature and that as soon as one is liberated from this material body there is no difference between God and himself. This attempt to become one with Kṛṣṇa will be baffled because of delusion. Such atheistic and demoniac cultivation of spiritual knowledge is always futile. That is the indication of this verse. For such persons, cultivation of the knowledge in the Vedic literature, like the Vedānta-sūtra and the Upaniṣads , is always baffled." *"It is a great offense, therefore, to consider Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, to be an ordinary man. Those who do so are certainly deluded, because they cannot understand the eternal form of Kṛṣṇa. In the Bṛhad*-vaiṣṇava mantra it is clearly stated that one who considers the body of Kṛṣṇa to be material should be driven out from all rituals and activities of the śruti. And if one by chance sees his face, he should at once take bath in the Ganges to rid himself of infection. People jeer at Kṛṣṇa because they are envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Their destiny is certainly to take birth after birth in the species of atheistic and demoniac life. Perpetually, their real knowledge will remain under delusion, and gradually they will regress to the darkest region of creation." Mr. Patnaik: (indistinct) . . . I was reading this yesterday, the Eleventh Chapter. Prabhupāda: Eleventh Chapter? Mr. Patnaik: Eleventh Chapter, yes. There are twelve, twelve chapters. There, Kṛṣṇa Bhagavān has a dialogue with Uddhava. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Pradyumna: He's referring to Ekādaśa*-skandha of the Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Uddhava. Mr. Patnaik: And there I felt . . . I thought that maybe whenever we meet I'll bring up this question with you. 'Cause the way in which it has been translated in Hindi which I read it does create a little question as to what Bhagavān Himself said about the status of the soul, the individual soul, and relationship . . . (indistinct) . . . because although I think I should have got it, they don't give it to the Life Members . . . (indistinct) Pradyumna: Yes, *Bhāgavatam* , we're up to the Seventh Canto now in the printing. Mr. Patnaik: So this canto has come. *Pradyumna: Yes, the canto has come out. So Saptama*-skandha , pādyokta . We're up to that. Mr. Patnaik: Now, well then if it is, if the member is . . . (indistinct) . . . now in the Eleventh there is . . . Prabhupāda: Eleventh Canto, yes. Then you will remember the verse? Mr. Patnaik: No, no, number . . . (indistinct) . . . again and again I had gone to that, and as to that, ultimately there is no difference. As soon as this . . . (indistinct) . . . when it comes. I would like this because I belong to the sect of our country, middle sect, from Swami Narayana. He's based on Rāmānujācārya philosophy, which says that all the souls are there, they are the body of the creator Bhagavān, just as the human ātmā has this body. This means there is the difference also identity. Identity is one, and yet they have their own place. That have been the faith which I have been . . . (indistinct) . . . now in many places this sometimes this differentiation remains, sometimes there is things said which wipe it out. I thought you would be the best person to give me some guidance . . . *Prabhupāda: As you say that Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad*-gita , mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). We living entities, we are part and parcel of God. Mr. Patnaik: Aṁśa . Prabhupāda: Aṁśa . So any common man can understand what is the . . . (break) (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . required to kill somebody, he'll do that—if it is required for his sense gratification. There are many instances that a woman is addicted to another man, and she has killed her husband, killed her son. Why? Sense gratification. I have seen one woman, my Godbrother's wife, she killed her son for being implicated with another man. I have seen it. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma ( SB 5.5.4). Things which are not to be done, they do it. Why? For the matter of sense gratification. They do it. That's a fact. So therefore simply for sense gratification they are prepared to do anything. That means pāpa . It is the verdict of the court that when a man kills another man he becomes mad. Without becoming mad, a man cannot kill another man. So everything is being done which is not sanctioned because for sense gratification. The whole world business is sense gratification. And at the end, when he's little spiritually inclined, he wants to satisfy senses by thinking artificially that "I shall become God." That is the greatest sense gratification. Because remaining a small living entity I have been hampered in my sense gratification. Now let me become God so that there will be no restriction of my sense gratification. Bhagavān . . . (indistinct) . . . because he has failed to satisfy his senses remaining non*-Bhagavān, now he wants to become Bhagavān. Yogī , that is also another sense gratification, that if I show some magic, if I can create little gold like this, hundreds and thousands of men will be after me and I shall live very nicely, just gratify my senses. These things are going on practically. The man who is manufacturing gold, and so many rich people are coming to his disciples and he's begging for a motorcar. If he can create gold, why he cannot create a motorcar? This is going on. Wo English me bol raha tha. (He was talking in English.) (break) Prabhupāda: Kya apka praśna hai? Apka praśna kya hai? (Do you have any question? What is your question?) Indian man: Baat ye hai guruji ki ek mene do teen saal pehle kisiko 5000 rupaya loan diya tha, aur usne kaha tha ki 4-5 din me vapas kar dega lekin abhi tak vapas nahi kiya. (The thing is Guruji, 2-3 years back I had given someone a loan of 5,000 rupees, and he had said that he would return it in 4-5 days but he hasn't returned it yet.) Prabhupāda: Kaun 5000 liya tha? (Who had taken 5,000 from you?) Indian man: Mera ek dost hai uska printing press hai. (I have a friend who runs a printing press.) Prabhupāda: Kam kya karta hai? (What work does he do?) Indian man: Printing ka kam karta hai wo. (He does the job of printing.) . . . (indistinct background conversation) . . . Prabhupāda: Us praśna ko hamare pas lane se kya faida? Nahi to . . . hum kya kare? (So what is the use of getting that question to us? What can we do?) Indian man: Nahi humne bahut koshish ki, aap sahi tarika boliye kaise usko . . . (No I tried a lot, if you could tell me what is the right way to . . . ) Prabhupāda: Hum uska tarika batayen, ye koi praśna hai? . . . Ye sab chalta hai, "hum 5000 rupaya mangte hain, aap dila dijiye to aap bada saheb ho jayiye". Ab agar wo 5000 rupaya humko milta hi nahin, aap kuch mantra laga kar usko dila dijiye tab hum manenge apko bada saheb aur nahin to nahi . . . Sadhu ka ye kam hai ki jo deta nahi usko dila de, bada saheb, mantra padke. Ye koi praśna hai sadhu ke liye. Ye sab chal raha hai. (We should say the solution, is that a question? These things are going on "I am asking for 5,000 rupees, you help me get it then you will become a big Sir". Now if I don't get that 5,000 rupees, you please do some magic and get it for me, then I shall consider you a big man, otherwise not. This is the work of a sage, who hasn't got anything, to give him something . . . Big Sir . . ., by reading some mantras. Is this a question which should be asked to a Sage? All these things are going on.) (Devotees chanting 'Hari Hari') Ye Sadhu ke pas jata hai aur: Māhārāj hamara pet me dard hai, aur sadhu usko koi dawai dega aur bada saheb. (They go to the Sage and tell him: Māhārāj I have pain in the stomach, and the sage gives him some medicine, then he would become a 'Big Sir'.) *Indian man (2): Ye adalat ka kam hai. Sadhu*-santon ke pas bhagvan ka poocho, bhagvan ke bhakti ka poocho, bhagvan ke kuch smabandh ki baat karo, ye sab maya ke bat nahi. (These works are meant for the court. When you come to a Sage you must enquire about God, about devotion to God, topics related to God, and not topics related to maya.) Indian man: Nahi mujhe jab maya milegi me Kṛṣṇa ji ko daan kar dunga na (No when I get the money, I will donate it to Kṛṣṇa.) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa ko wo daan nahi chahiye. Ap usko bhul jaiye. (Kṛṣṇa doesn't want that money. You forget about it.) Indian man (2): Sab to wo deta hai, ap usko kya denge? (He provides for everything. What can we give to him?) Prabhupāda: Apko 5,000 rupaya dila den to ap Kṛṣṇa ko denge. Abhi apke pas do chaar paise jo hain wo dijiye. (If you get that 5,000 rupees you will donate it to Kṛṣṇa. But whatever little amount you have now, you donate that first.) Indian man: Sirf yahi dukh hain mujhe aur sab . . . (This is the only sadness I have, remaining everything . . .) Indian man (2): To usko dena hoga de diya, jab lena hai to kabhi mil jayega. (This was your time to give, so you gave. When it's your time to get, then you will get it.) . . . (indistinct conversation) . . . *Prabhupāda: Sadhu kisko bataya jata hai? Bhagvan kisko sadhu bataya hai? To 'api cet su*-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ' (BG 9.30) jo bhagvat bhajan karta hai, 'ananya bhak' se wo sadhu hai. Wo māhātamā bada durlabh hai jo ki Vāsudev bhagwan ko hi sab kuch manta hai . . . 'bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ' (BG 7.19) Ye sab kaun māhātamā hai, kaun sahdhu hai iske vishay me bhagvan khud bata diya hai. Wo 'bhajate mām ananya-bhāk' wo sadhu hai. Unke pas Bhagvat bhajan karne ke liye puch sakte hain, rupaya kaise milega uske liye to aur sab . . . ye sab ajkal yahi chalta hai. (break) Sadhu ke pas, kis tarah se tapasya karni padti hai . . . kaise Bhagwan ka sanidhya labh ho sakega usko puchna chahiye. (Who is called as a Sage? Who has God declared as a sage? So api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ (BG 9.30) one who sings the glories of the Lord without deviation "Ananya bhak" he is a sage. That being is very rare who considers only Lord Vasudeva to be everything . . . bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19) These things like: 'Who is a Saint', 'Who is a Sage', the Lord himself has explained about these things. That one who is engagegd in devotional service without any deviation "bhajate mām ananya-bhāk" is a Sage. You can ask him about how to sing glories of the Lord. For things related to how to get money and all there are other . . . these things are all going on today. (break) How to perform austerities, how to get the association of supreme Lord, these things should be asked to a Sage.) Indian man: . . . Prabhuji ek baat hai, Bhagvan ki itni seva ki hai . . . aur main prarthana karta hoon ki mujhe aise ashirwad chahiye ki me bhagwan ko kabhi bhulun na aur jo kaam me karun unke liye karun. . . yehi mai aapse aashirvad mangta hoon. Aur kabhi gande kaam me mera dyan na jaye, sachai bolun. . . (. . . Prabhuji there is one thing, I have rendered so much service to the Lord. . . I worship God that I want this blessing: I should never forget God and whatever work I do, I should do it for him . . . also this is the blessing I seek from you. Also, my mind should never be engaged in any dirty works, I should always speak the truth . . .) Prabhupāda: Bhagvan apko aashirvad kare. (May the Lord bless you.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Devotees chanting 'Jay Prabhupāda')'kirtaniya sada Hari' 'satatam kirtayanto' Sab samay kirtan karo. Kam karo aur Hare Kṛṣṇa bolne me kya nuksan hai. (All the time sing the names of God. Do your work but what is the loss in saying Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda: Karo to sahi, shuru to karo. Bhagwan bole 'satatam kirtayanto' sab samay bhagwan ka kirtan karo aur sab samay nahi hota hai to jahan tak hota hai karo, lekin karo. (break) Kirtan karo baith ke. (Do it, start at least . The Lord said: 'satatam kirtayanto' all time sing the glories of the Lord. And if it's not possible to do all time, then do as much as you can, but start doing. (break) Sit down and do kirtana .) Indian lady: . . . (indistinct) . . . *Prabhupāda: Krodh, jaise Hanumān ji kiya tha. Jaise Hanuman ji wo Rāvan ka ghar jala diya. Bina krodh se koi kisika ghar jala sakta hai? To krodh ka aise vyavahar karo. To Rāvan ka ghar kyun jalaya? Ye bewakoof Sitā ji ko le aaya, badmash, uska ghar jala diya. Krodh . . . jo rakshas hai, bhagvan ka abhakt hai uske upar khub krodh karo. (Anger, like Hanumān ji had displayed? Like Hanumān ji had burnt down the house of Rāvana. Can anyone burn down a house without anger? So you should utilize anger in this way. So why did he burn down Rāvana's palace? This foolish rogue man kidnapped Sitā, so he burnt down his house. Whoever is demoniac, non*-devotee, you should be very angry on them.) Indian lady: Kabhi kabhi bahut jyada krodh ata hai. (I get very angry sometimes.) Prabhupāda: Bahut karo, jab ghar jala diya to baki kya reh hai . . . Abhi krodh kitna ho sakta hai? Utna krodh kahan ayega? Ap kisika ghar jala sakti ho? Hanumān ji ne kiya tha isliye Hanumān ji ka aj tak puja karte hain, kyunki krodh kiya tha. Bichare vendanta ko nahi padha tha, padhe to jane Krodh kiya lekin Rām ke liye, apne liye nahi kiya. Krodha ka vyavahr hai bhagwan ke liye. Jo Bhagvan ko maanta nahi aur bhakt ko takalif deta hai, uske upar khub krodh kijiye, ghar jala dijiye. Krodh ka bhi vyavahr hai, krodh hai to krodh dikhao kahan tak hai krodh. (Do more, When he burnt a house, what more is left . . . Now how much high can anger be? Where would you get that much anger? Can you burn down somebody's house? Hanumān ji did it that's why till today he is being worshipped, because he became angry. Poor guys, they dont read the scriptures, if they read they will get to know that he displayed anger but only for Rāma, not for himself. The use of anger is done for Lord's service. The one who does not believe in God, and gives trouble to devotees, you should be very angry with them, you should burn down their houses. There is proper use of anger as well. If you have anger then display that anger.) Indian lady: Krodh me to anisht bhi hota hai. (In anger, we perform forbidden things sometimes.) *Prabhupāda: Anisht hoye chod tum bhagvan ke liye karo. Hum bolta hai agar tumhare pas krodh hai to usko . . . ye krodh bhagvan ke liye vyavahar karo. Jaise Hanumān ji kiya tha. Hai to Māhājan hai 'Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ' (CC Madhya 17.186) Bade*-bade Māhājan bhakt log jaise kaam kiya hai . . . wo Hanumān ji ke pas krodh tha tabhi to wo kiya, to apke pas krodh hai ap bhi wese kijiye. Is prakar apka krodh jab vyavahar hojayega fir apko shanti milegi. (Leave about the forbidden things, you did it for the Lord. I am saying if you have anger . . . use that anger for the service of Lord. Just like Hanumān did it. He is a self-realized predecessor Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) Whatever is done by big big self realized predecessors, devotees . . . Hanumān ji had anger that's why he did it, so if you have anger you also utilize in the same way. In this way when you utilize your anger then you will find peace.) Indian man (2): . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda:' Kya puch raha hai? ( What is he asking?) Indian man: Kehta hai Bhagvan ka naam kis tarah liya jata hai mujhe batao. (He wants to know how to chant the name of the Lord.) *Prabhupāda: Kis tarah se leta hai dekhta nahi hai ap, phir kaise batayega apka jab ankh nahi hai. Ye sab kaise leta hai, din bhar kirtan karta hai. Ye koi mushkil hai kya? Dekho wo jaise karta hai waise karo, usme kya hai seekhna? Ye to baccha bhi kar lega. Us din baccha kirtan kiya na, usme seekhne ka kya hai? Jo dekhe usiko karo. Aaiye, han, aiiye. Dekh ke sikhna hota hai, jaise kaunsa bhi sevak hai . . . Hanumān ji se jake seekho . . . Jo dekh ke sikhta hai wo bada chalak hai. Ek aadmi ko zabardasti aise karo*-waise karo bolne se sikhta hai to usko der lagta hai aur jo dekh ke sikhta hai jaldi seekh jata hai, wo bada chatur hai. Adarsh . . . adarsh sab cheez ka hai, wo adarsh hum le aaye, yehi humlog ka pantha hai 'Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ' (CC Madhya 17.186). Bade-bade bhakt log jaise rasta dikhaye hain usko anusaran karo sab seekh jaoge. Tarko ’pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā (CC Madhya 17.186) Ye tark karke seekhna, wo tark karenge, hum unse jyada tark karenge, koi aur humse zyada tark karega, usse koi labh nahi hai. Aur yadi ved vedanta padhenge to hum dekhenge ved me kuch aur likha hai aur doosre ved me aur kuch likha hai aur darshnik vichar karenge 'Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam'(CC Madhya 17.186) aur ye muni ko daba nahi sakta hai to uska jo philosophy hai wo bhi thik nahi hai aise bata denge. (Aren't you seeing how they are chanting, then how can I explain if you don't have the eyes. How do they chant, they chant the whole day. Is it difficult? See how they are doing, you do like them, what is there to learn in this? Even a child can do this. That day the children chanted, what is there to learn? Whatever you have seen, you should do that. Come, please come. You must see by seeing, just as we have the devotees, go and learn from Hanumān ji . . . one who learns by seeing is very clever. If one forcibly keeps telling you to do like this, like that, then it takes time to learn but one who sees and learns, he learns quickly, he is very intelligent. Everything has got certain principles that we have brought. This is our belief system. Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) Whatever path the great devotees have shown ,just follow it and you will learn everything. Tarko ’pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā (CC Madhya 17.186)) Learning by giving arguments, he will give some argument, we will then try to add some more argument, and somebody else will give more argument than us, there is no benefit from these arguments. And if we study the vedanta then we know something else is written in the 'vedas', and in some other 'veda' there is some other thing which is written then we try to think philosophically. Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (CC Madhya 17.186) and if they can't suppress the saint, then whatever philosophy he has given, they just mark it as incorrect. *'Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ'(CC Madhya 17.186) isiliye jo dharma vastu hai uska tattva bada gambhir hai. To kis tarah se sikha jaye? 'Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ'(CC Madhya 17.186) Bade*-bade Māhājan jis tarah se rasta dikhaye hain usko follow karo. Hamare vedic niyam se sab māhān acharya hain, jaise aaj kal pehle Sri sampradaya, Rudra sampradaya, Brahma sampradaya, Kumar sampradaya, to shastra me sab bataya hai kaun-kaun mahajan hain: 'Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ prahlādo janako bhīṣmo balir vaiyāsakir vayam (ŚB 6.3.20) ye sab Māhājan hain. Naradji hain, Brahmaji hain, Mahadev Shivji hain, aur Kapil hain, Manu hain, Prahlād maharaj hain, Janak māhārāj hain, Bhishmadev hain, dwadash māhājan shastra me bataya gaya hai, wo log jaise jaise kaam kiya hai us tarah se hum log anusaran karen aur unko jo adarsh hai usko follow karen. ( Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ (CC Madhya 17.186) Therefore the matters related to dharma is very deep. So how should we learn it? Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) We should follow the path shown by the great self realized personalities. In our Vedic culture we have very great teachers as nowadays the Sri sampradaya, Rudra sampradaya, Brahma sampradaya, Kumar sampradaya. So all this is mentioned in the scriptures, who are the great personalities, Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ prahlādo janako bhīṣmo balir vaiyāsakir vayam (ŚB 6.3.20) these are the great personalities. We have Narad ji, Brahma ji, Mahadev Shiv ji, Kapila muni, Manu, Prahlād Māhārāj, Janak Māhārāj, Bhismadeva, these 12 great personalities are mentioned in the scriptures. We should follow the work they have done and follow their ideals.) Thank you. *Indian lady: . . .(indistinct) . . . Kalyug me kirtan se uddhar ho sakta hai. Bhagwan Kṛṣṇa Gita me kehte hain ki sthita*-pragya ke liye dhyan yoga. . . (. . . In Kali yuga by chanting the Lord's name one can be elevated. Lord Kṛṣṇa has said in the Gitā that for a person to be equipoised . . .) *Prabhupāda: Wo sthita*-pragya ho jayega Rām-naam karo. Bhagvan ka naam karo, bhagvan ka smaran karo. Rām ka naam liya to Rām ka to dhyan ho jayega. Dhanurdhari Rām, Sitāji baithe hain, Hanumān ji baithe hain, Lakshman ji hain, ye sab dhyan hogaya. Kya mushkil hai. Kisi ka naam lene se uska sab kaam dhyan me aata hai ki nahin, usi prakar aap yadi Rām ka naam lenge to sath sath Rām ka dhyan bhi ho jayega (verse). Yadi aap dhyanavastit hokar ke bhagvan ko dhyan karenge to fir yogi hogaye. Aur pehle se thik thak kar liya ki Rām ka haat nahi hai, pair nahi hai, naak nahi hai, aankh nahi hai, to kis par dhyan karnege. To keval klesh hoga. (verse) Bhgavan ka dhyan kijiye, Bhagvan ka naam lijiye, jo hogaya sawar lijiye. Shastra me bataya hai (verse). Dhyan ka, meditation ka arth kya hota hai. Jo man ko sab samay bhagvan ke charan me laga deta hai ye samadhi hai. (Chant the names of the Lord and you will become equipoised. Take the names of the Lord, remember Him. If you chant the names of Lord Rāma then automatically meditation happens on Lord Lord Rāma. Lord Rāma with bow and arrow, Sitā seated next to Him, Hanumān ji is also sitting and Lakshman is there, all this is meditation. What is the difficulty? When you take a person's name, all his activities will come to your mind or not. Similarly if you take Lord Rāma's name then automatically you will meditate on the Lord. (verse). If you meditate with single minded devotion towards to Lord then you will become a yogi. And beforehand if you fix that Lord Rāma does not have hands, does not have legs, does not either eyes or ears then what will you meditate on. Then there will be only tribulation. (verse). Meditate on the Lord, take the names of the Lord, fix everything. In the scriptures it is said (verse). What is the meaning of meditation? One who focuses his mind all the time on the lotus feet of the Lord, that is trance.) *Indian man: Bhagvan ki siddhi aur moksh prapt karne ke raste ek hi hai ya alag*-alag? (Are the ways of obtaining mystic powers and liberation one and the same?) Prabhupāda: Moksh ka arth aap kya samjhte hain? (What do you understand the meaning of liberation?) Indian man: Shakti, jaise shakt log hain shakti ko prapt karte hain. (Power, like how we have the 'shakta's' who aquire the power.) *Prabhupāda: Shakti me moksh nahi hai. Shakti, ye material power . . . (indistinct) . . . usme moksh nahi hai. Material power usko shakti 'dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpa*-pati-bhājaṁ dehi' lo usko aur phas jao. Ye sab duniya me jo power chahte hain wo phas jate hain ki nahin, ye aapko maloom hai ki nahin. To duniya ka shakti labh hone se, aap phas jaiyega yahi labhi hoga. Wo to moksh nahi hai, wo to phasne wala baat hai. Shakti ye nimn star ka vyajan hai, ye duniya ka power chahte hain, jo shakti upasak hai. Ye shakti analysis karke dekhte hai aag me shakti jyada hai to agni upasak ho jate hain. Aur fir jo aag pe analysis karke dekhta hai, jo aag jo aata hai wo surya ke agni se aata hai, to surya ka upasak hai. Ye shakto. Isi tarah shakt aur kya nam hai danapatta, aur souryo . . . ye sab panch upasana hai . . . (indistinct) . . . It is gradual state. To asal me vishnu upasana hi mukhya hai. (verse) to jitna upasana hai wo sab karte-karte jab usko theek chiz maloom hoga 'ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param' (Padma Purāṇa). To sadharan vyakti nahi jante hain (verse) to sartha gatim kya hai jante nahi he isliye kabhi shakti me phas jate hain, kabhi agni me fas jate hain, pancha-upasak. Aur swayam Vishnu aa karke bata rahe hain tum ye sab chodo 'sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ' (BG 16.66) usme tumhara sab labh hai. (verse) Aur jisko Bhagwan ka krpa labh ho gaya wo aur kisika kripa nahi chahte hain. (There is no lieration in power. 'Shakti', this is material power . . . there is no liberation in that. Acquiring material power 'dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpa-pati-bhājaṁ dehi' and getting more entangled. All the people in the world who want power, don't they get trapped, do you know this or not? So if you get the material power, you will get entangled more and that's the only benefit. That is not liberation, that is entanglement. Power is a low form of energy, whoever are the worshippers of power, they want power of this world. The analyze this power and see, there is power in the fire, so they become worshippers of fire. Now they analyze the fire and they find out this fire actually comes from Sun's heat , then they become worshippers of the Sun. Like this there are 'Shakta's' , 'Shouryo' . . . there are five types of worshippers . . . (indistinct) . . . It is gradual state. So in reality, worship of Lord Vishnu is the most important. So out of all the different kinds of worship, after doing everything when he realizes the correct thing 'ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param' (Padma Purāṇa). So normal people do not know this, and they sometimes get stuck in power, or fire . . . they get stuck in the worship of these five types. And Lord Vishnu himself comes and tells, you leave all this sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (BG 16.66, your benefit is in that.) And whoever has received the blessings of the lord, they don't need blessings from anyone else. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) . . . Ishwar darshan, bhagvan darshan kya hai? (What does the darshan of God mean?) Prabhupāda: Pehle to aapko ye nischit karna chahiye ki kiska darshan chahte hain. Abhi to bataya na shakti, daanpatra, souryo anek prakar upasana hai. Aapko kya chahiye tab bataya jayega kis tarah se upasana karne se labh milega. (First you must decide whose darshan you want to have. Just now I mentioned 'Shakta' , 'Shouryo', there are different kinds of worship. Which one you want, then we can say how to perform the worship to get the benefit.) First of all you must fix up what you want. Indian man (1): What is realization? Prabhupāda: Realization—everything is realization. If you can do business well, that is also realization. Indian man (1): Realization of God. Prabhupāda: Then you, if you want . . . Indian man (1): Realization of God. Prabhupāda: Realization of God, To wo to Bhagwan bata rahe hain (So Lord is saying), bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). So "If you want to know Me, then bhaktyā , bhakti ." Ye to bataye nahi gyan se, karma se, yog se humko mil sakte hain, nahi. (It is not said that you will obtain God by knowledge, by duty, by yoga , no.) Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ . If you want to know God really, then you have to take this path, bhakti . If you want something else, that is a different thing. *Pehle to aapko fix*-up hona chahiye ki aapko chahiye kya. (First you have to decide what it is that you want.) Indian man: Aur Prabhupāda, ye sākār aur nirākār me kaafi matbhed chalta hai. Sākār samne pratyaksh murti rakne se, hriday me dhyan ekatrit karke aur kendrit karke hum puja kar sakte hain, bhakti kar sakte hain, lekin nirākār me dhyan nahi jamta hai. To apka iske bare me kya vichar hai aur . . . (And Prabhupāda, there is a lot of difference of opinion in the form and formless formless feature of the Lord. In the form, we can keep the Deity in front of us, meditate in our mind and worship the Deity and do devotion but in formless we cannot meditate. So what is your view on this and . . .) Prabhupāda: Ye nirākār ka arth pehle samajhiye. Nirākār aakār ko nakharch kar dena, Nirākār - aakar hai baki usko nakharch karke . . . (indistinct) . . . To bhagvan jo hai wo dekhta hai baki uska aankh nahi hai. Aise ye sab vichar, to ab sochna chahihye ki aankh nahi hai to dekhta kaise hai, ye vichar karna hai (verse). Ye achaksur jo hai nirākār hai aur pashyati jo hai wo aakār. (Try to understand the meaning of the word formless first. Formless means to break the form, form is there but . . . (indistinct) . . . We say the Lord is seeing everything but he doesn't have eyes. These thoughts are going on, now one should contemplate if there are no eyes then how is he seeing, you should think about this. (verse) This 'achaksur' is formless and 'pashyati' is form.) *Isliye aapko nischay karna chahiye ki bhagvan dekhta hai, baki wo unka hamara jaisa aankh nahi hai, ye nirākār hai. Hum jaise dekh rahe hain, ye kamre ke bhitar sab dekh rahe hain aur diwar ke udhar kya hai dekh nahi sakte. Aur jo bhagvan hai wo sab dekhta hai (verse) sab jagah unka haat hai , pair hai. Isliye vichar karna chahiye ki bhagvan ka haat, pair sabhi hai baki hamare jaise nahin hai. Ye vichar karna chahiye. Jo ye hamara jaise hai hi nahi wo nirākār hai aur unka jo haat*-pair hai wo aakār. Isliye shastra me bataya hai 'ISVARA PARAMA KRISHNA SACHIDANANDA VIGRAHA ANADIR AADIR GOVINDA SARVA KARANA KARANAM'. Unka jo vigrah hai, aakār hai wo sacidanand hai, sac-cit-anand. To jahan sacidanand kaha gaya hai ye jo sharir hai ye nirākār hai, kyunki ye jo sharir hai ye sat nahi hai, asat, (verse). Ye sharir to naash ho jayega. Bhagvan ka sharir hai baki maas-mans sharir nahi hai. Isliye bhagvan kehte hain mai jab aata hoon to ye moorkh log samjhte hai ki sadharan manushya jaisa hai 'avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā' mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam' (BG 9.11). (Therefore first you should decide that God can see, but he does not have eyes like us, this is formless. Like how we are able to see what is inside this room but what is there behind the wall we can't see. But the Lord can see everything, (verse). He has his hands and legs everywhere. So we must think that His hands and legs are there but not like ours. So this must be considered. So the one which is not like us, is formless and the hands and legs which the Lord has is the form. Hence it is said in the scriptures that ISVARA PARAMA KRISHNA SACHIDANANDA VIGRAHA ANADIR AADIR GOVINDA SARVA KARANA KARANAM Lord's deity, the form , is sac-cit-ananda , full of eternity, knowledge and bliss. So where it is said eternity, knowledge and bliss, but this body of ours is not eternal, it is temporary (verse) This body will perish. God's form is there but not made of flesh and bones. So God says, when I descend these rascals think that I am an ordinary person like them Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā' mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11)) *Kyunki ye do haat*-payr leke main aaya hoon to moorkh log samjhte hai ki hamara jaise koi vyakti hai baki wo sachidananda vigrah hai. 'sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā' (BG 4.6) ye sab vachan hai Bhagavad-Gita me. Bhagvan ka jo sharir hai wo hamara jaisa sharir nahi hai 'janma karma ca me divyam' (BG 4.9). To bhagvan ka sharir kya hai usko agar samajh jaye to wo . . . baki wo samajhta nahi hai, wo samajhta hai hamara jaisa vyakti hai aur unko ye mayavadi log kehte hai jab bhagvan aate hai to maya ka sharir dharan karke aate hain. To nirākār ka artha hota hai bhagvan ka bhautik sharir nahi hai. Bhagvan ka sharir hai sac-cit-anand vigraha. Agar sacidanand vigraha nahi hota to 7 varsh ke umar me koi pahad utha sakta hai, boliye. (Just because I have appeared with 2 hands and legs, these rascals think that He is a person like us, but he is sac-cit-ananda vigraha sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6). All these statements are given in the Bhagavad-gita . The form of God is not like ours. janma karma ca me divyam (BG 4.9) So if one understands the form of God then . . . but he does not understand and thinks the Lord is like one of us, and to this the impersonalists say that whenever God appears He comes with this maya form. So the meaning of formless is that God does not have a material form like us. God's form is full of eternity, knowledge and bliss. If His form was not eternal, full of knowledge and bliss then how could a 7 year old lift such a big mountain on a little finger, tell me.) Indian man: Mera matlab ye tha prabhuji ki jab hum puja karte hain baithte hain agar samne murti hoti hai Bhagwan ki sākār murti ho ya chitra ho, to us par dhyan jaldi aakarshit hota hai, kendrit hota hai. Lekin agar hum bina murti ke dhyan karne baithe nirākār ka, to wo dhyan kendrit ho nahi pata hai. To kya koi jariya hai sākār ke dwara nirākār pahuchne ka? (I meant to say this Prabhuji that if we sit in front of the Deity or a photo of God to worship Him, then our mind gets drawn to the Deity very quickly. But if we sit meditating on the formless, then it's very difficult to focus and meditate. So is there any way to achieve the formless through the form?) *Prabhupāda: Nirākār kyun pahunchega, nirākār pahuchna nahi hai. Wo aap jante nahi je bhagvan ka aakār kya hai. Wo agyan ko door kijiye. Bhagvan to nirākār hai hi nahi, sachidanand vigraha. Vigraha ka arth hota hai murti. To fir bhagvan ke murti ko aap nirakar karne kyun chahte hain. Aur jo nirākār karne ko chahte hai usko 'kleśo ’dhika*-taras teṣām' (BG 12.5) usko adhik klesh hota hai, aur kuch nahi milta hai. (Why would he reach the formless, he doesn not have to reach the formless. You don't know that the Lord has a form. Remove this ignorance first. God is not formless, He is sac-cid-ananda . The meaning of 'Vigraha' is Deity. Why do you want to make God's Deity formless? And one who wants to make Him formless, he suffers a lot, kleśo ’dhika-taras teṣām (BG 12.5) he does not get anything.) Find out this verse. Indian man: Aisa shastron me bataya gaya hai kali kaal me . . .(indistinct) . . . (It is mentioned in the scriptures that in this 'Kali yuga' . . .) (break) Prabhupāda: Pehle samjhiye Bhagvan nirākār nahi hai. Bhagvan ka aakār hai baki . . . (First of all understand that God is not formless. God has a form . . .) Somebody . . . why don't you send? What they are doing, all these rascals, that they cannot read? Devotee: Someone should come in? Prabhupāda: Yes. But they do not know that somebody should remain there. Why they are there? What they are doing there? Hari-śauri: Harikeśa is typing. Pradyumna is reading Sanskrit books. *Prabhupāda: Just see. Send Pradyumna immediately. Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām avyaktasakta*-cetasam. Kleśa . Beginning with kleśa . (devotees tries to find verse) You could not? Kleśa . K-l-e-s . Why don't you come here? And who will find out? Come here. Devotee: Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām ? *Prabhupāda: Why do you say that you do not find? Find out. They are not accustomed. Kleśo'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta*-cetasām (BG 12.5). Ye bhagvan swayam bata diya, jo nirākār bhajan karne wala hai uska kewal klesh adhik hota hai. To apko klesh hua to wo to hoga hi. Ye to shastra me bata diya. Apko sukh kaise hoga. Jab shastra batata hai adhik klesha, jisko adhik klesh usko sukh kaise hoga. (The Lord himself has already said, one who worships the formless, for him only tribulation increases. So if you are having to suffer, then it was bound to happen. This is already told in the scriptures. How will you feel happiness? When the scripture says too much suffering, then how can one who is suffering get happiness.) (Pradyumna enters) Read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Ah. Avyaktā hi gatir duḥkham. Avyakta chintan karne kewal dukh labh hota hai aur kuch labh nahi Read it. (If you meditate on the unmanifested form then you get only sadness, nothing else.) Pradyumna: "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied." Prabhupāda: Yes. Wo rasta ko pakadne se apko klesh adhik hoga, Bhagvan khud bata rahe hain, to apko sukh kaise milega. (The Lord himself says, if you take that path then you have to suffer a lot. So how will you get happiness? You are expecting happiness by thinking of impersonal form of the Lord. That is not possible. You simply get troubles, that's all. Ye to aap buddhiman hain, bhagyavan hain, jiska apko anubhav hua hai. Aur jo moorkh hota hai usko klesh bhi hota hai aur wohi rasta me jata hai. Wo janta hai usme klesh hota hai phir usi me jata hai. Aisa moorkh hota hai. Apko to bhagvan kripa kiya. Koi chahte hain ki khushi se hum klesh uttaye, wo moorkh jati hai. Ye buddhiman klesh ke rasta me kyun jaye. Isme anand hota hai idhar Bhagvan ka murti hai, dekho kitna sundar sajaya hai, nach rahe hain, gaa rahe hain, isme anand hai. Nirākār kuch nahi hai. (You are intelligent, and fortunate that you are experiencing this. And one who is foolish suffers and still continues on the same path. He knows that the path is full of suffering but still goes on that path. Such foolishness. God has showered His mercy on you. No one wants to take suffering happily, such people are rascals. Why should the intelligent person go on the path of suffering? Is there happiness? Here we have God's Deity, see how nicely it is decorated, they are dancing, they are singing - this is happiness, bliss. There is no formlessness.) What is the purport? *Pradyumna: "The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jñāna*-yogis , and persons who are in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord, are called bhakti-yogis . Now here the difference between jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed." *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa personally says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). To aap agyan panth ka kyun lijiye. Yadi aap bhagvan ko janane ko chahte hain, bhagvan bata rahe hain 'bhaktya mam abhijanati' to aap agyan panth kyun lenge. Fir apko klesh hoga (verse) To jo . . . Bhagvan sab bata diya hai, do rasta hai (verse) jo abhakton me aasakt hain usko adhik klesh hota hai. (Why do you want to take the ignorant path? If you want to know God, then God himself is saying " bhaktya mam abhijanati " then why will you take the path of ignorance? Then you will have suffering (verse). So, the Lord has already mentioned, there are 2 ways (verse), the one who is attached to non*-devotees gets more suffering.) So If you like to tolerate adhik-kleśa , that is your choice. Otherwise, Bhagavān, sac-cid-ānanda . . . Srivigraha ka aaradhan kijiye, usko sajaiye, sabko khane ko dijiye, prasad paiye, kirtan kijiye, dance kijiye, dekhiye anand milega. To anand ka path chod karke aagar klesh ka path lijiyega to ye aapke kushi ke baat hai. (Worship the Deity, decorate it, Offer food to the deities , feed prasadam to everyone, you also honor prasadam , perform congregational chanting, dancing and you will get bliss. So if you discard the path of bliss and take the path of suffering, it is your choice.) You can accept any way. That is your choice. *Ye sab shastra me hai. (All this is given in the scriptures.) Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa vigraha. Sac-cid-ānanda vigraha (BS 5.1). *Nirākār kyon? Artificially wo vigraha bhagvan ko nirākār karne ko kyun chahte hain. Isme apko kya labh hoga. Isko jawab dijiye. Aap bahut accha sākār se nirākār jayenge. Jab bhagvan ka sacidananda vigraha mauzood hai aap wahan se phir, nirākār roop bhi unka hai, sabhi to wohi hai 'brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate' (SB 1.2.11). To bhagvan aakhir roop hai. To bhagvan ka roop chod karke . . . jaise Suryadev hai. Wo suryadev suryalok me hai aur unka sab chata . . . to Suryadev ka sharir ka prakash se ye sab prakash hai, to udhar se idhar aane ka jaroorat kya hai, idhar se udhar jaiye. Surya ka jo prakash hai, roudra dhoop hai, dhoop se aahiste*-aashiste suryalok me jaiye. Suryalok me jake suryadev ka darshan kariye, ye paddhati hai. Aap suryalok me gaya, suryadev ka darshan kiya, chalo fir dhoop me chalo, ye kaun sa vichar hai, boliye. Idhar se udhar jayenge na udhar se idhar aayenge. Jisko bhakti hai usko gyan yog hai. Jisko bhakti hai wo bina gyan bhakt kaise hoga. (Why formless? Why do they want to artificially make the Deity of God formless? What benefit do you get from it? Answer this. You will go very nicely from form to formless. When God's form of eternity, bliss and knowledge is there, He is also formless, He is everything. brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). So ultimately God has form. Then why do you forget His form? Like how we have Sun God. The Sun God is in the sun planet and all his rays, the sunshine from the sun's body illuminates everything. Then what is the need to come from there to here, instead go from here to there. The light of the sun, the heat - from the sunshine, he gradually enters into the sun planet. Enter into the sun's planet and have darshan of Sun God, this is the process. And he goes to the Sun planet, gets darshan of the Sun God and then again comes out in the sun, what's these kind of thoughts called, tell me. Will you go from here to there or come from there to here . . . one who has devotion, has got knowledge. One who has devotion, how will he become devotee without knowledge?) *Jab tak purna gyan usko nahi hota ki bhagvan ye hai 'bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ' (BG 7.19) jab tak apko purna gyan nahi hoga to bhagvan ko kaise samjhenge. Bhagvan ko samajhna kya sadharan baat hai 'manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ' (BG 7.3). To bhagvan ko samajhna aisa maamuli baat hai kya. Hazaron-karodo aadmi siddhi labh karne ke liye prayatna karte hain aur jo siddhi labh kiye hue hain usme abhi tak koi bhagvan ko janta nahi. Gyan purna ho jayega to bhagvan ko samajh jayenge. Jab bhagvan ko jante nahin, uske gyan ka kya mulya hai. Vo to agyan hai 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.15). Ved-vedanta ko padh kar bhi yadi bhagvan ko nahi samjha, to phir apke gyan ka kya fayda hua. (Until he has complete knowledge, that God is this: Unless you have complete knowledge, how will you understand God? Is it an ordinary thing to understand God? So is it such a simple thing to understand God? Thousands and crores of people are trying to obtain mystic powers and out of those who have got these powers, no one has understood God yet. When the knowledge is complete, then you will understand God. When you don't know God, what is the value of your knowledge? That is ignorance. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo (BG 15.15) Even after reading so many scriptures - the vedas , the vedanta —if one has not understood God, then what is the use of such knowledge?) Indian lady: . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhakti yog ke liye to prem ki jarurat hai. (To perform bhakti yog, we need love.) Prabhupāda: Sastra vachan dekhiye, ki jiska gyan nahi hai wo kya bhagwan ko samjhega. To isliye jo bhagwan ko samjha hai usko gyan jarur hai. Aur jo bhagwan ko samjha nahi uska gyan ka kya kimat. 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.14) Ved ka artha hota hai gyan to sab ved ka uddesya kya hai? Ki Bhagwan ko samarpan karna. Aur yadi wahan tak ap pahunche nahi Bhagwan kya chiz he nahi samjhte hain, to apko gyani kehne ka kya matlab hai, wo to agyani hai. Aisa to gyan, jo mistri hai usko bhi kuch gyan hai. Thoda bahut gyan sabhi ka hota hai. Gyan sabhi ko hota hai, bacha ko bhi hota hai. Jiv matr ko kuch na kuch gyan hota hai. Kuch Kuch gyan ka baat nahi he, purna gyan. Jo purna gyan hai wo Bhagwan ko samjehnge. Uska naam purna gyan. (See the statements of the scriptures, the one who doesn't have the knowledge, what will he understand God. So the one who has understood God, he definitely has knowledge. And the one who did not understand God, what is the value of his knowledge. 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.14) The meaning of 'ved' is knowledge, so what is the purpose of all the scriptures? To surrender to the supreme Lord. And if you haven't reached there, and did not understand what is God then what is the meaning of calling you a 'Gyani', he is called as ignorant. Even a craftsman has some knowledge. Little bit knowledge is there with everyone. Even a child has some knowledge. Every being has some or the other knowledge. But we are not talking about little knowledge . . . complete knowledge. One who has complete knowledge can understand the Lord. That's known as complete knowledge. ) Indian lady: Prabhuji ahankār ko kis tarah mitaya jaye? (Prabhuji how to get rid of ego?) *Prabhupāda: To ahankār . . . jab tak ap samjhke baithe ho ki hum bada gyani hai to ahankār kaise jayega? So pehle apne ko samjhna hai maha*-murkha hai tab apko jayega. Jab tak ap ye nahi samjhenge ki hum maha-murkh hai tab tak ap agyani rahenge. (So, ego . . . till the point you believe I am very knowledgeable then how will ego go? So first you must consider yourself as a great fool, then ego will disappear. Till the time you don't consider yourself as a great fool, you will stay ignorant.) . . . (indistinct conversation) . . . Indian lady: Hum kal bhi aye the apke darshan ke liye magar time hogaya tha. Mummy aur papa bhi . . . (We came yesterday as well to see you, but it was late. Mom and dad also . . .) Prabhupāda: Acha. Abhi sab aye hain? (Okay. Everyone has come today?) Indian lady: Hum log prabhuji shayad is mahine me ja rahe hain . . . (inidistinct) . . . (We are planning to go this month Prabhuji . . .) Prabhupāda: Jaiye. Abhi to hum logon ko bhari palace he . . . Wo makan banane me , 50 varsha pehle 6 million dollar kharcha hua tha. Paris me hai bahut bada. (Please go. Now we have a big palace . . . It cost 6 million dollar to build that place 50 years ago. There's a big one in Paris.) Indian lady: Guruji ek baat hai, kehte hain kuch log ki tum puja karte ho path karte ho, ek ghanta do ghanta karte ho lekin agar tumhara dhyan nahi laga to vyarth hai. To pura dhyan nahi lagta to hume nahi karna chahiye? Jaise hum kar rahe hain kuch adha ghanta, ek ghanta . . . dusre log kehte hain tum ek ghanta baithi ho tumne puja kiya, to tumhara ek ghanta dhyan laga? Yadi nahi laga to tum do minute kyun nahi karte ho, to fir kya karna chahiye? Agar man lijiye hamara puri tarah dhyan nahi laga to kya puja nahi karni chahiye? (Guruji there is 1 thing, some people say you worship for half and hour or 1 hour but if your mind is not fixed then it's all waste. So if we are not able to concentrate fully then what should we do? Like we sit for half an hour or 1 hour . . . and other people say, you sat for 1 hour and you did worship, so were you able to concentrate for that 1 hour? If not, then why don't you sit just for 2 mins, so what should be done in that case? So suppose we don't have any concentration, what should be done in that case?) *Prabhupāda: Iska vichar bahut bhari hai. Ap Bhagavad*-gītā padhiye. Unme sab baat bataya gaya hai. Kuch log kehte hai, aise bahut se log hain wo sab kehne se kya labh. (This idea is very deep. You read Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is mentioned there. Some people say, like this many people keep saying what's the use of that.) Indian lady: . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda: Vishay to apko chahiye. Mind khali nahi reh sakta hai. Ek chiz ko chodiye to aur ek chiz ye me hoga. To Kṛṣṇa ko lijiye to nirvisay hoga. Aur Kṛṣṇa ko nahi lijiyega to visay me rahega. Bhakti yog ka artha hota hai vairagya yog. Aiye, ap piche kyun hai? Abhi aye kya? (You need some topic. Mind can't remain ideal. If you leave one topic, it will go to other. So take your mind to Kṛṣṇa and then it will become out of topics. And if you don't take to Kṛṣṇa then you will always still in the thoughts. The meaning of Bhakti yog is yog of detachment. Come, why are you sitting back? Did you come now?) Indian lady: Nahi bahut der se hain (No I came from a long time.) *Prabhupāda: Acha tabhi thik hai. Lochan Dasa Thakura geet gaya hai 'Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā' Jo bhagwat ras me jamne ke liye visahy ras chodna padega. 'viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā mukhe bolo hari hari'. Bhagwan bhi bataya hai ek jagah (Okay it's alright then. Lochan Dasa Thakura has sung: Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā To merge in the mellows of the supreme, you need to leave the material things. Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā mukhe bolo hari hari The Lord has also said in one place:) Bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām Find out this verse. Jyada vishay, bhog aiswarya me jiska man laga hai wo samadhi me aa nahi sakta hai. (If one is too much involved in material sense gratification then he can't go into trance.) Find it out. Pradyumna: "In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination of devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place." Prabhupāda: This qualification. Surendra Kumar Saigal: Your Divine Grace, how long are you staying at Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: I'm going . . . oh, Vṛndāvana? Three weeks. Surendra Kumar Saigal: When you are . . . Prabhupāda: Any time you are home. Surendra Kumar Saigal: Any time which is convenient to Your Divine Grace. Shall I come over to Vṛndāvana on the 15th evening? Fifteenth evening, I'll come over to Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Surendra Kumar Saigal: And then what is the program? Your Divine Grace is coming back to Delhi from Vṛndāvana after three weeks' stay? Prabhupāda: They have made program to go to Chandigarh. *Surendra Kumar Saigal: Chandigarh. You can . . . (indistinct) . . . Aligarh. Your Divine Grace can go to Aligarh to Delhi. The route is almost the same distance from here to Vṛndāvana. And you can go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh. About five miles, eight miles difference. It won't cost you much mileage*-wise. Prabhupāda: Udhar . . .(indistinct) . . . ka koi jhanjhat hai? (Is there any complication about this? . . .) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. The road is okay. You said we should go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh? Surendra Kumar Saigal: In my opinion you should. I heard that road is very bad. Five or six kilometers they have raised the road by about six, seven feet, and all this is all mud and muck, and the car skids. In my opinion, you go via Aligarh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Or we can come to Aligarh from Vṛndāvana. Surendra Kumar Saigal: I'm suggesting because I don't want to . . . (indistinct) . . . go back to Vṛndāvana and then come . . . (indistinct) . . . (Gopāla Kṛṣṇa converses with Indians about which road to take) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . *Pradyumna: Bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ . . . purport? Purport: " Samādhi means 'fixed mind.' The Vedic dictionary, the Nirukti, says, samyag ādhīyate 'sminn ātmatattva-yāthātmyam : 'When the mind is fixed for understanding the self, it is called samādhi .' Samādhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment, nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things. They are more or less condemned by the process of material energy." *Prabhupāda: Yehi agyan hai ki thodi der ke liye ye bhautik sukh me aaplog fas jate hain aur usise hamara agyan chaloo hota hai. Shastra adi paath karne se sab gyan milta hai vishesh karke Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Aap usko padh rahe hain ki nahin? (This is the ignorance that for a short period you get entangled in these material comforts and from that our ignorance begins. By reading the scriptures we get all knowledge, especially Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Are you reading it or not? ) *Prahlāda Mahārāja yahi bataye hain 'śoce tato vimukha*-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān' (SB 7.9.43) Hamare liye to koi dukh nahi hai, hum to kahin bhi baith jayenge aur apka naam, gun kirtan karenge. Baki hamara sochne ka jo cheez hai, ye moorkh log thode der ke bhautik sukh ke liye itna parishram karte hain, great arrangement. 'Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato' Sukh to sthayi nahi hai. Sukh to hai hi nahi, 10 sal, 20, sal, 50 sal, zyada se zyada 100 sal. 'Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato' bharam bolta hai na to God jaisa lagta hai, to ye vimudha jo hai, 'ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā' (Prahlāda Maharaj has said this śoce tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43) There is no sorrow for us, we will sit anywhere and start singing your name and glories. But the thing which we have to consider is : these rascals are working so hard day and night for a flickering moment of happiness. They are making great arrangements. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato Happiness is not permanent. There is no happiness, may be 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, maximum 100 years. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato So because of the illusion we feel ourselves as God, so this is ignorant ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā ) *Vimudha bataya ye log kya vastvik sukh hai jante nahi, jaisa ek balak hai, wo uska life ka jo purpose hai, education lena, age jake usko bahut kuch karna padega . . . to isi prakar hum log vimudh hai je jivan ka uddeshya kya hai, kis liye humko manushya jivan mila hai, kya chahiye, ye sab kuch vyavasta nahi karte, kewal acchi tarah se khayenge, achi tarah se soyenge, maza karenge, 'Māyā*-sukhāya', acchi tarah se ye sab bhog nahi kar sakega, usme bhi bahut zhanzhat hai. Thoda achi tarah se bhog karne ke liye jo vastu ki jarurat hai, sabko paisa to milta nahi, wo bhi bhagvan ki kripa se milta hai, nahi to sabhi bada aadmi ho jata tha usko paisa khub milta. Ek aadmi din bhar parishram karta hai usko khane ko do roti nahi milta hai. Roti sabhi ko milta hai, kutta ko bhi milta hai. Aur ek aadmi thoda hi parishram kiya aur bahut rupaya milta hai. Ye bhagvan dene se milta hai, ye nischit hai. Jisko bhagwan deta hai usko milta hai. Wo apna destiny lekar aata hai. Jabardasti humko zyada parishram karne se jyada mil jayega, ye bhul dharana hai (verse) so utna hi apko milega jitna apko hak hai, destiny. Lekin dukh, dukh ko koi bulata nahi tabhi dukh pahunch jata hai . . . Jisko jitna dukh milna hai wo milega, to sastra kehte hain jitna apko sukh milna ko hai wo milega, to uske liye prayas karna. Wo jitna tumko milna hai mil jayega thik time pe. Tum prayas karo kis tarah se bhagwan ko samajh sakte ho, uske liye prayas karo. (verse) Kyunki janm-janmantar gaya bhagvan ko samajha nahi, upar-niche bahut ghoome, kabhi swarglok me gaya, kabhi nark me gaya, sab doondh ke aya hai . . . ab jo manushya jivan mila hai ab bhagvan ke liye koshish karo, mil jayega, aur sukh-dukh ke liye tumhara jitna destiny hai wo mil jaygega. Adhik prayas karne ka koi jaroorat nahi. (Ignorant person doesn't know what is real happiness, just like a child, what is the purpose of his life? To get education, going forward he has to achieve a lot . . . similarly we are ignorant, what is the purpose of our life? Why have we got this human form of life? What do we want? We do not organize these matters, only eat nicely, have fun, sleep, " maya sukhaya " but he will not be able to enjoy these pleasures as well nicely, there are a lot of complications in this. To enjoy sense gratification we need resources, everyone doesn't get money, that also is received by the mercy of God, otherwise everyone would have become a rich man. One man works hard day and night and he doesn't get a square meal a day. Everybody gets a piece of bread, even a dog. On the other hand, another man puts just little effort but gets lots of money. He gets this only if God gives it, this is certain. Whoever the Lord gives, he receives it. He brings along his destiny. Forcibly if we work very hard then we will get more, that is a misconception (verse). So you will only get that much on which you have the rights, destiny. But sadness, nobody invites it but still it comes. How much one has to suffer, he will suffer. The scripture says, how much ever happiness you have to get you will get, no need to work very hard. The one which you are destined to receive, you will receive at the correct time. You should endeavor how to understand God. Because life after life has passed and we have not understood God, we have traveled in the lower planets and the upper planets, sometimes went to heavenly planets and sometimes to hellish planets, we searched everywhere and came back. Now that you have got the human form of life, try to reach for God and you will get Him. And for happiness and distress whatever is there in your destiny you will get, no need to put in an extra effort. (verse).) You have got that? *Pradyumna: Na tat*-prayāsaḥ kartavyam . Prabhupāda: What is that? *Harikeśa: Some mahā*-prasādam . Prabhupāda: For me? Harikeśa: They are offering it to you. *Prabhupāda: Na tat*-prayāsaḥ kartavyam . (aside) He can go. You can go. You have . . . (indistinct) . . . now. Ye mahine ke aakhir me, is mahine ke aakhir me Septmeber. (At the end of this month, at the end of this month, September.) He . . . her son—he is the father and mother—he's an Indian, in Detroit, very good boy, getting very nice. He, living in the temple, husband and wife, child we have. Bachā, ek bachā? (Children, one child?) He's getting very happy, very nice boy. Hamara ye sanstha me Indian koi join karta hai to udhar se hi karta hai, idhar se nahi karta hai. (In this organization if some Indian joins, then it's only from that part, they don't join from this part.) Just like their son, he's educated very nicely. Educated boys are joining from foreign countries, and not from here. Iska kya karan hai boliye. (Tell me what should we do for this.) . . . (indistinct) . . . *Ye jo Gopāla Kṛṣṇa hain ye bhi udhar se hi join hue the, he was sales manager in Coca*-Cola. Usko 15000 dollar milta hai yearly, 15000 dollar kitna hota hai? 1200 mil sakta hai, 12000 milna koi sadharan baat nahi hai. Aisa aur ek beta hai, wo bhi engineer hai, Yashomatinandan, gujrati, uska maa-baap hai. To do-char jo Indians padhe-likhe hain wo udhar se hi join hote hain. (Gopāla Kṛṣṇa had also joined from there, he was sales manager in Coca-Cola. He gets 15,000 dollars annually. How much is 15,000 dollars. He can get 1,200, is it such a small thing to get 12,000.There is one more son like this,he is also an engineer, Yasomatinandana, Gujarati, he has parents. So 2 to 4 educated Indians have all joined from there.) . . . (indistinct) . . . you have got that book? Ah . . . Stillson Judah's? Pradyumna: No. It's in Bombay. We may have a copy in Vṛndāvana also. Prabhupāda: One professor, Stillson Judah, he has written one book. After studying our movement five years he has written one Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. Surendra Kumar Saigal: Counterculture. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. To bahut scientific research hai . . .Wo opinion diya hai . . . (So a lot of scientific research is there . . . they have given the opinion . . .) Pradyumna: Doesn't have a copy here. It's published by Princeton University Press. In their religion . . . in their set of volumes on different religions. Indian woman: . . . (indistinct) . . . prasādam . Prabhupāda: Aiiye, aiiye, aiiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa, bahut kripa hai, prasad do. (Please come. Hare Kṛṣṇa, we are fortunate, give them prasad .) (new guest arrives) Accha nahi hai tabiyat bahut hi kharab hai. (Health is not good, very poor condition.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Mr. Patnaik (Defense Minister): How are you, sir? Prabhupāda: Idhar aaye koi kaam tha? (You came here, any work?) You came here for some . . . Mr. Patnaik: Yes, then I thought I would go to your old place. The . . . (indistinct) . . . this was here . . . (indistinct) . . . the old place, I didn't get any response. There was nobody there now. But when you shifted from there? There is nobody there now. Prabhupāda: No. Mr. Patnaik: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And this place is better than that. Mr. Patnaik: Very much. Oh, yes. How long you will stay? Prabhupāda: I am going tomorrow, Vṛndāvana. Mr. Patnaik: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I'll be three weeks there. Mr. Patnaik: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Mr. Patnaik: Of course. *Prabhupāda: Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa*-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam . Ye to bhagvan aradya vastu hai, brajnandan Hari. (This is a worshipable God, Brajanandana Hari.) As He is worshipable, similarly, Vṛndāvana dhāma is also worshipable. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam ramya kācid upāsana vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā va kalpitā . Upāsana , vraja-vadhū , the vraja , damsels of vrajabhūmi , the gopīs, as they worship the Lord, there is no comparison to that process of worship. Vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā . Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvana . Mr. Patnaik: I think we are going there after Parliament session closes tomorrow . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Where? Vṛndāvana. Mr. Patnaik: Vṛndāvana . . . (indistinct) . . . then I was told that Mathurā and . . . (indistinct) . . . full. Prabhupāda: They spend so much money for the roadways; still it is not good. Mr. Patnaik: Draining the different levels, question arises, the water, the excessive in quantity, and the natural drains are not efficient enough to take it out . . . (indistinct) . . . I was told that . . . Prabhupāda: There is no sufficient outlet. Mr. Patnaik: Yes. But some of those āśrama , Mathurā, it's very deep, that four feet water in the āśramas . Three, four feet water. Prabhupāda: Within the āśramas ? Mr. Patnaik: And temple. You haven't recives any message from Vṛndāvana? Pradyumna: Our temple is all right. Raman Reti is not flooded where we are. It's almost up to Fogel Ashram in the back, Yamunā, but it has not come to our Raman Reti. Mr. Patnaik: And now you will remain here in India for some time? Prabhupāda: That I do not know. I, actually, now it is little troublesome for me to travel all the year. Mr. Patnaik: You are just gone from . . . (indistinct) . . . so when the guests arrive . . . Prabhupāda: Rest, if I rest then there may be . . . because I am dealing with all neophytes. If I don't keep them alive by personal presence . . . still, they are doing nice. I have appointed twenty secretaries all over the world. I am training them. They are managing. Managing nicely. I have been in New York and Los Angeles and Hawaii, all big, big centers. London, Paris. Mr. Patnaik: Oh, it's a very great. Your program for Kurukṣetra and etcetera and the . . . Prabhupāda: Program was that they promised to give me a land. Mr. Patnaik: Who? Prabhupāda: That Chief Minister. Mr. Patnaik: Have they done so? Prabhupāda: Not yet. Mr. Patnaik: I heard about two acres was available recently, except that it . . . (indistinct) . . . I wrote you that the manner in which approach was made upset those people. And the Minister, I later learned . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: We are trying for another big scheme in Bengal. We have applied to the government to acquire land, 350 acres, a big planetarium. Planetarium. We have described the planetarium in our Fifth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . In that planetarium it is said that the moon is above the sun planet, by one million six hundred thousand miles. Mr. Patnaik: What does astronomy say? The modern astronomy. Prabhupāda: They say the moon planet is nearer to earth planet, and they have gone there. Mr. Patnaik: Have you given up any idea about Kurukṣetra? Prabhupāda: No, no, not . . . Mr. Patnaik: No, because if you have the idea, the land is the least part of it, because so much is to be done . . . (indistinct) . . . if the idea is that something should be done. I learned that gentleman, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . and he has said that he will do something. I was not there at the time of the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (aside) You bring one little plate prasādam from there, from that . . . Mr. Patnaik: And you will be in Vṛndāvana for some . . . Prabhupāda: Three weeks. Mr. Patnaik: After that you don't know. After that where you go, you don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Patnaik: Well, this is God's work, Lord Kṛṣṇa's work. I am trying . . . (indistinct) . . . to cooperate with you, because nobody can do. Prabhupāda: No, you have done tremendous work. Mr. Patnaik: No, but which is very little considering the situation, the condition, problem in the country. I am at a lower level than your level than your work . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The one encouraging thing in this movement is that our books are being very much appreciated. In all universities, foreign and Indian, libraries, professors, learned scholars. Mr. Patnaik: Yes, they'll branch out and then . . . it's a great service. Prabhupāda: We are selling books to the extent of sixty thousand dollars daily. Mr. Patnaik: I see. Prabhupāda: That is our only hope, that we shall not be financially in difficulty. People are taking our books very nicely. People are accepting our literature. Mr. Patnaik: It is not that difficulties were not there also . . . (indistinct) . . . I don't have the support, but I feel . . . (indistinct) . . . find that several places the demand for this, for the acceptance also . . . (indistinct) . . . coming forward, but not in the manner in which I had wanted . . . (indistinct) . . . lakhs of people stand against the forces which want to . . . (indistinct) . . . religion and moral side. There should be a linking up of all those who want religion to remain and morality to also be there. Those forces have to be met by also organized force from the right kind of people, religious people . . . (indistinct) . . . I hope they are not coming in your way. Prabhupāda: No, no. Mr. Patnaik: I remember that you had written yourself that there is something we could do together. Possibly this question, building and all that, whenever it comes there. It is good to have that building and that land, but even before that, there is work to be done at the Kurukṣetra. *Prabhupāda: My point is that Kurukṣetra is the place where Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken. So if we take the words of Bhagavad-gita as it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, then people will be benefitted. Mr. Patnaik: That is basic, of course. The foundation. *Prabhupāda: But if we do not take the words of Bhagavad*-gītā , then moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). That I believe. (aside) Find out this verse. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo . Mr. Patnaik: That's true. I also believe that there must be a direct . . . Prabhupāda: No, why not direct? Mr. Patnaik: Putting in your interpretation, that is wrong. It should be direct. That doesn't mean only those people who have accepted this can come together. Prabhupāda: And why the others will not accept? Mr. Patnaik: No, we have made, you must have seen our literature, *Gītā* as a text, but still people may not judge . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, we should not depend on the people's acceptance only. We have to present *Gītā* as it is. Now everything is not accepted by everyone. Even if you make change, there is no guarantee that they will . . . Mr. Patnaik: No, no. Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not speaking to you. Anyone. Mr. Patnaik: I am not trying to make a show. I believe a direct interpretation is important thing more than the other kinds of ideas and conceptions. Pradyumna: "Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demoniac and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities and their culture of knowledge are all defeated." Prabhupāda: Go on. Go on. I have given any purport? *Pradyumna: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. "There are many devotees who assume themselves to be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and devotional service but at heart do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, as the Absolute Truth. For them, the fruit of devotional service—going back to Godhead—will never be tasted. Similarly, those who are engaged in fruitive, pious activities and who are ultimately hoping to be liberated from this material entanglement will never be successful either, because they deride the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. In other words, persons who mock Kṛṣṇa are to be understood to be demoniac or atheistic. As described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā , such demoniac miscreants never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore their mental speculations to arrive at the Absolute Truth bring them to the false conclusion that the ordinary living entity and Kṛṣṇa are one and the same. With such a false conviction, they think that the body of any human being is now simply covered by material nature and that as soon as one is liberated from this material body there is no difference between God and himself. This attempt to become one with Kṛṣṇa will be baffled because of delusion. Such atheistic and demoniac cultivation of spiritual knowledge is always futile. That is the indication of this verse. For such persons, cultivation of the knowledge in the Vedic literature, like the Vedānta-sūtra and the Upaniṣads , is always baffled." *"It is a great offense, therefore, to consider Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, to be an ordinary man. Those who do so are certainly deluded, because they cannot understand the eternal form of Kṛṣṇa. In the Bṛhad*-vaiṣṇava mantra it is clearly stated that one who considers the body of Kṛṣṇa to be material should be driven out from all rituals and activities of the śruti. And if one by chance sees his face, he should at once take bath in the Ganges to rid himself of infection. People jeer at Kṛṣṇa because they are envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Their destiny is certainly to take birth after birth in the species of atheistic and demoniac life. Perpetually, their real knowledge will remain under delusion, and gradually they will regress to the darkest region of creation." Mr. Patnaik: (indistinct) . . . I was reading this yesterday, the Eleventh Chapter. Prabhupāda: Eleventh Chapter? Mr. Patnaik: Eleventh Chapter, yes. There are twelve, twelve chapters. There, Kṛṣṇa Bhagavān has a dialogue with Uddhava. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Pradyumna: He's referring to Ekādaśa*-skandha of the Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Uddhava. Mr. Patnaik: And there I felt . . . I thought that maybe whenever we meet I'll bring up this question with you. 'Cause the way in which it has been translated in Hindi which I read it does create a little question as to what Bhagavān Himself said about the status of the soul, the individual soul, and relationship . . . (indistinct) . . . because although I think I should have got it, they don't give it to the Life Members . . . (indistinct) Pradyumna: Yes, *Bhāgavatam* , we're up to the Seventh Canto now in the printing. Mr. Patnaik: So this canto has come. *Pradyumna: Yes, the canto has come out. So Saptama*-skandha , pādyokta . We're up to that. Mr. Patnaik: Now, well then if it is, if the member is . . . (indistinct) . . . now in the Eleventh there is . . . Prabhupāda: Eleventh Canto, yes. Then you will remember the verse? Mr. Patnaik: No, no, number . . . (indistinct) . . . again and again I had gone to that, and as to that, ultimately there is no difference. As soon as this . . . (indistinct) . . . when it comes. I would like this because I belong to the sect of our country, middle sect, from Swami Narayana. He's based on Rāmānujācārya philosophy, which says that all the souls are there, they are the body of the creator Bhagavān, just as the human ātmā has this body. This means there is the difference also identity. Identity is one, and yet they have their own place. That have been the faith which I have been . . . (indistinct) . . . now in many places this sometimes this differentiation remains, sometimes there is things said which wipe it out. I thought you would be the best person to give me some guidance . . . *Prabhupāda: As you say that Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad*-gita , mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). We living entities, we are part and parcel of God. Mr. Patnaik: Aṁśa . Prabhupāda: Aṁśa . So any common man can understand what is the . . . (break) (end) Prabhupāda: So, everything is going nice? Akṣayānanda: Yes, by your grace only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a very beautiful garden for you. Prabhupāda: Hm. Garden? Oh. Akṣayānanda: Guesthouse has improved very much. Now we have about twenty paying guests. And during Śrāvaṇa and Janmāṣṭamī it was completely full. Very, very encouraging. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, many of our Life Members were turned down. We met some in Delhi. They said they couldn't get in. The whole thing was full. Akṣayānanda: They were fighting to come. Prabhupāda: So, they are allowed three days free? Akṣayānanda: Only. Also book distribution has improved very much. Prabhupāda: Locally? Akṣayānanda: Here in the temple specifically. Haihaya has been concentrating. He's very good. Prabhupāda: Hindi? Akṣayānanda: Yes, Hindi magazines and what we can get. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Viśāla alone does about two, three hundred every day. Akṣayānanda: Viśāla is . . . Prabhupāda: Where is our Viśvambhara? Viśvambhara is helping nicely? Akṣayānanda: Oh, yes. Hundred percent. (break) French. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the new French *Bhāgavatam* on the back. Prabhupāda: Oh. I think I have seen it. Hari-śauri: Yes, that's the one we got in Paris, Bhagavān. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It looks very nice. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bank is going nice? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The bank. Akṣayānanda: The bank is all right. *Prabhupāda: Sab theek thak? Tabiyat theek hai to? Aur sab padosi theek*-thaak hai? (Everything is alright? Your health is fine? All neighbors are doing good?) So, the gurukula building, how far it is? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . you have got them, the keys? (devotees look through keys) Indian Man: Ji Han. (Yes) Prabhupāda: Main to sab tumhare bharosa me hi choda hun,ye log bichare ladkhalata hai. (I have left everything under your trust, else these people get wobbly.) . . . (indistinct conversation) (break) Prabhupāda: Ek manjil hogaya?(1 floor is completed?) Indian Man: Ek manjil ab nahi ho sakta, ek mahina lag jayega. (1 floor can't be done now, it will take around 1 month.) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When devotees come for Gaura*-Pūrṇimā . . . Ground floor me reh sakte hain . . .Jab bhakt ayenge agle saal festival pe, ground floor aur first floor me reh sakenge. (They can stay on the ground floor . . .When devotees come next year for the festival, they cab stay in the ground floor and first floo.) (. . . indistinct. . .) Prabhupāda: Ayega to idhar se hokar sab jayega. (If they come, they would first come over here and then go.) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Māyāpur, Delhi, Vṛndāvana, Bombay. From Bombay back to Europe. Bhagatjī: . . .Hamari aur nahi aye Prabhupāda? Ki Nityānanda festival yahan ho aur Gaur Purnima Māyāpur me ho, aur Ram Navami Bombay ho (You won't come to our place, Prabhupāda? We can have Nityānanda festival here and then Gaur Purnima in Māyāpur and Ram Navami in Bombay.) . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda: . . . So let them come first of all here from Delhi. Bhagatjī: They come first here. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Thing is, the whole thing has to be completed in three weeks, because the American GBCs don't like . . . they think it is a very big loss financially. . . . Agar teen hafta se jyada India me rehana hai to financially bahut mehenga padta hai kyunki sab devotees . . . (. . . to stay in India for more than 3 weeks becomes very expensive for all the devotees because . . .) Book distribution stops completely. They are saying . . . (indistinct conversation with Bhagatjī) Prabhupāda: Where is Hari-śauri? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hari-śauri? Prabhupāda wants you. Prabhupāda: Is that correct? Is that correct key? What is that? Hari-śauri: This one's for some of the locks on the doors. Prabhupāda: Which door? Hari-śauri: Ah, front door. I think it was one on the bedroom originally. They may have taken them off again. Prabhupāda: Find out the door. Bhagatjī: . . . (indistinct Hindi conversation with Prabhupāda) *Prabhupāda: He is pakkā*-bāṇiyā , and here is another, more pakkā . (laughter) Ye pakka baniya hai. (He is a thorough business man) Bhagatjī: (. . . indistinct . . . ) Prabhupāda: Aap to sahansheel hain, ye apka special quality hai. (You are so tolerant, this is your special quality.) He is very tolerant. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's very calm. Bhagatjī: . . . To wo kehne lage ye jo mandir hai . . .lekin aap . . . Mene kaha tha dekhiye, me Iskcon Prabhupāda ji pe viswas karta hun, aur me hriday se kehta hun ki me Iskcon ko . . . wese me jab me hun ya na hun . . . (indistinct) . . . (So he started saying, this temple . . . but you . . . I told, look, I believe in Iskcon Prabhupāda ji, and I say it with my heart that I believe in Iskcon . . . even if I am there or not there . . .) Prabhupāda: Apne kya socha hai? (What have you thought?) Bhagatjī: . . . Maine, ye socha saab, ye contractor bade ache mile hain, badhiya party hai, bade imandar aadmi hain . . .Kitni musibat padi hai unko nikalne me ye ap hamare dil se puchiye. Kitni musibat padi hai saaman uthane me . . . (I have thought, the contractors whom we have got are very good. It's a good party, they are very honest . . . You can ask my heart, how great difficulty it was in getting them out. There was so much difficulty in lifting the luggage . . . ) Prabhupāda: Mumbai se . . .(From Mumbai . . .) Indian man: . . . Prabhupāda ne nikalwa diya Mumbai se. . .(Prabhupāda got us out from Mumbai . . .) Bhagatjī: . . . To Prabhupāda wo jab me gaya, sabse pucha,humne kaha pehle kimat lagayi hai apne .Mene unse keh diya 10 rupaya hum government ne (. . . indistinct) aur itna hamara paisa kharch ho raha hai. Aur aap banayenge 7 feet jo hai sadak ke center se master plan me apko zameen chodni padegi agar ap ashram banayegnge. Aur residence banayenge to aur jyada zameen chodni padegi (. . . indistinct. . .) Me ek bhai ke nate maine kaha ki apse me keh raha hun ap karo , aur hamare bachon ke liye khelne ka maidan ban jayega, ek tent ban jayega chota sa. Are aap usko muft de do to hum apka naam likhwaden isme (. . . indistinct . . .) Hum chinta karte rahe Prabhupāda ye zameen to hum apne paise se lenge chahe kuch ho.(So Prabhupāda when I went, I asked everybody, I asked them to fix the price first. I said 10 rupees our Government . . . (indistinct) . . . and this the amount which gets spent. And you want to make 7 feet from road's center, so in the master plan you would have to leave land if you want to build ashram. And if you want to build a residence, you would have to leave even more land. As a brother, I said you do it, and there is will be some space as playground for our children to play, and we could also put a small tent. And if you give it for free, we will write your name on it. ) Prabhupāda: Tit for Tat. Bahut baniya hain aap. (All laughing) Bhagwan Kṛṣṇa bhi baniya hain. (You are a very big merchant. Lord Kṛṣṇa was also a merhcant.) Bhagatjī: . . . Han yashoda mayya to vaishya hain. (Yes, Yashoda mayya was a vaishya.) Prabhupāda: Bhagwan Vṛndāvana me baniya hain aur jagah me Kshatriya hain. Hain to bhagwan sabhi. (Lord is merchant in Vṛndāvana but in all other places he is Kshatriya. Anyways, in both forms he is God.) Prabhupāda: (to Pālikā) You have come before? Or with us? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: With you. Pālikā: In a bus. I have some fruits ready for you, if you'd like to take. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have . . . (indistinct) . . . paraṭā ? No. What you have prepared? Bhagatjī: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Jitna jaroorat hai utna collect karo. (Collect only that which is required.) Keep patience. I am not dishonest. Prabhupāda: Dishonest or not . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . your family is very nice. Bhagatjī: Keep patience. I am not dishonest . . . (indistinct Hindi) Devotee: Your breakfast has come. Breakfast is here. Prabhupāda: I'll take. This man, he's not . . . (indistinct) . . . jaya . Devotees: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Come Krishna*-Balaram sabko sukhi kare, aur kya humlog chahte hain. Sab uni ka kripa hai. (May Kṛṣṇa Balarāma make everyone happy, what else do we want? Everything is His mercy.) Balarāma . . . bala-hīnena labhya (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 3.2.4). Wo bhagvan Baladev ka kripa bina yahan kabza nahi hota hai. Wo Vivekananda uska meaning kiya hai. Jiska takat kam hai wo kabhi . . . labh nahi kar sakta. Mota-taaza khub maans khao wo mota-taaza bahut . . . ye hota hai. (Balarāma . . . if He showers His mercy then anything is possible. Vivekananda gave the meaning of this verse to one who has less muscle power . . . what is the use? Fat, sturdy, eats a lot of meat and becomes fat . . . this is what happens.) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: By your mercy, Balarāmajī is giving. *Prabhupāda: Nitāiyer koruṇā habe braje rādhā*-kṛṣṇa pābe . These rascals, they do not know. Nitāi, balarāma hoila nitāi . So without the mercy of Balarāma, nobody can appreciate Vṛndāvana life. Jaya . (end) Prabhupāda: So, everything is going nice? Akṣayānanda: Yes, by your grace only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a very beautiful garden for you. Prabhupāda: Hm. Garden? Oh. Akṣayānanda: Guesthouse has improved very much. Now we have about twenty paying guests. And during Śrāvaṇa and Janmāṣṭamī it was completely full. Very, very encouraging. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, many of our Life Members were turned down. We met some in Delhi. They said they couldn't get in. The whole thing was full. Akṣayānanda: They were fighting to come. Prabhupāda: So, they are allowed three days free? Akṣayānanda: Only. Also book distribution has improved very much. Prabhupāda: Locally? Akṣayānanda: Here in the temple specifically. Haihaya has been concentrating. He's very good. Prabhupāda: Hindi? Akṣayānanda: Yes, Hindi magazines and what we can get. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Viśāla alone does about two, three hundred every day. Akṣayānanda: Viśāla is . . . Prabhupāda: Where is our Viśvambhara? Viśvambhara is helping nicely? Akṣayānanda: Oh, yes. Hundred percent. (break) French. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the new French *Bhāgavatam* on the back. Prabhupāda: Oh. I think I have seen it. Hari-śauri: Yes, that's the one we got in Paris, Bhagavān. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It looks very nice. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bank is going nice? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The bank. Akṣayānanda: The bank is all right. *Prabhupāda: Sab theek thak? Tabiyat theek hai to? Aur sab padosi theek*-thaak hai? (Everything is alright? Your health is fine? All neighbors are doing good?) So, the gurukula building, how far it is? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . you have got them, the keys? (devotees look through keys) Indian Man: Ji Han. (Yes) Prabhupāda: Main to sab tumhare bharosa me hi choda hun,ye log bichare ladkhalata hai. (I have left everything under your trust, else these people get wobbly.) . . . (indistinct conversation) (break) Prabhupāda: Ek manjil hogaya?(1 floor is completed?) Indian Man: Ek manjil ab nahi ho sakta, ek mahina lag jayega. (1 floor can't be done now, it will take around 1 month.) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When devotees come for Gaura*-Pūrṇimā . . . Ground floor me reh sakte hain . . .Jab bhakt ayenge agle saal festival pe, ground floor aur first floor me reh sakenge. (They can stay on the ground floor . . .When devotees come next year for the festival, they cab stay in the ground floor and first floo.) (. . . indistinct. . .) Prabhupāda: Ayega to idhar se hokar sab jayega. (If they come, they would first come over here and then go.) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Māyāpur, Delhi, Vṛndāvana, Bombay. From Bombay back to Europe. Bhagatjī: . . .Hamari aur nahi aye Prabhupāda? Ki Nityānanda festival yahan ho aur Gaur Purnima Māyāpur me ho, aur Ram Navami Bombay ho (You won't come to our place, Prabhupāda? We can have Nityānanda festival here and then Gaur Purnima in Māyāpur and Ram Navami in Bombay.) . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda: . . . So let them come first of all here from Delhi. Bhagatjī: They come first here. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Thing is, the whole thing has to be completed in three weeks, because the American GBCs don't like . . . they think it is a very big loss financially. . . . Agar teen hafta se jyada India me rehana hai to financially bahut mehenga padta hai kyunki sab devotees . . . (. . . to stay in India for more than 3 weeks becomes very expensive for all the devotees because . . .) Book distribution stops completely. They are saying . . . (indistinct conversation with Bhagatjī) Prabhupāda: Where is Hari-śauri? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hari-śauri? Prabhupāda wants you. Prabhupāda: Is that correct? Is that correct key? What is that? Hari-śauri: This one's for some of the locks on the doors. Prabhupāda: Which door? Hari-śauri: Ah, front door. I think it was one on the bedroom originally. They may have taken them off again. Prabhupāda: Find out the door. Bhagatjī: . . . (indistinct Hindi conversation with Prabhupāda) *Prabhupāda: He is pakkā*-bāṇiyā , and here is another, more pakkā . (laughter) Ye pakka baniya hai. (He is a thorough business man) Bhagatjī: (. . . indistinct . . . ) Prabhupāda: Aap to sahansheel hain, ye apka special quality hai. (You are so tolerant, this is your special quality.) He is very tolerant. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's very calm. Bhagatjī: . . . To wo kehne lage ye jo mandir hai . . .lekin aap . . . Mene kaha tha dekhiye, me Iskcon Prabhupāda ji pe viswas karta hun, aur me hriday se kehta hun ki me Iskcon ko . . . wese me jab me hun ya na hun . . . (indistinct) . . . (So he started saying, this temple . . . but you . . . I told, look, I believe in Iskcon Prabhupāda ji, and I say it with my heart that I believe in Iskcon . . . even if I am there or not there . . .) Prabhupāda: Apne kya socha hai? (What have you thought?) Bhagatjī: . . . Maine, ye socha saab, ye contractor bade ache mile hain, badhiya party hai, bade imandar aadmi hain . . .Kitni musibat padi hai unko nikalne me ye ap hamare dil se puchiye. Kitni musibat padi hai saaman uthane me . . . (I have thought, the contractors whom we have got are very good. It's a good party, they are very honest . . . You can ask my heart, how great difficulty it was in getting them out. There was so much difficulty in lifting the luggage . . . ) Prabhupāda: Mumbai se . . .(From Mumbai . . .) Indian man: . . . Prabhupāda ne nikalwa diya Mumbai se. . .(Prabhupāda got us out from Mumbai . . .) Bhagatjī: . . . To Prabhupāda wo jab me gaya, sabse pucha,humne kaha pehle kimat lagayi hai apne .Mene unse keh diya 10 rupaya hum government ne (. . . indistinct) aur itna hamara paisa kharch ho raha hai. Aur aap banayenge 7 feet jo hai sadak ke center se master plan me apko zameen chodni padegi agar ap ashram banayegnge. Aur residence banayenge to aur jyada zameen chodni padegi (. . . indistinct. . .) Me ek bhai ke nate maine kaha ki apse me keh raha hun ap karo , aur hamare bachon ke liye khelne ka maidan ban jayega, ek tent ban jayega chota sa. Are aap usko muft de do to hum apka naam likhwaden isme (. . . indistinct . . .) Hum chinta karte rahe Prabhupāda ye zameen to hum apne paise se lenge chahe kuch ho.(So Prabhupāda when I went, I asked everybody, I asked them to fix the price first. I said 10 rupees our Government . . . (indistinct) . . . and this the amount which gets spent. And you want to make 7 feet from road's center, so in the master plan you would have to leave land if you want to build ashram. And if you want to build a residence, you would have to leave even more land. As a brother, I said you do it, and there is will be some space as playground for our children to play, and we could also put a small tent. And if you give it for free, we will write your name on it. ) Prabhupāda: Tit for Tat. Bahut baniya hain aap. (All laughing) Bhagwan Kṛṣṇa bhi baniya hain. (You are a very big merchant. Lord Kṛṣṇa was also a merhcant.) Bhagatjī: . . . Han yashoda mayya to vaishya hain. (Yes, Yashoda mayya was a vaishya.) Prabhupāda: Bhagwan Vṛndāvana me baniya hain aur jagah me Kshatriya hain. Hain to bhagwan sabhi. (Lord is merchant in Vṛndāvana but in all other places he is Kshatriya. Anyways, in both forms he is God.) Prabhupāda: (to Pālikā) You have come before? Or with us? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: With you. Pālikā: In a bus. I have some fruits ready for you, if you'd like to take. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have . . . (indistinct) . . . paraṭā ? No. What you have prepared? Bhagatjī: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Jitna jaroorat hai utna collect karo. (Collect only that which is required.) Keep patience. I am not dishonest. Prabhupāda: Dishonest or not . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . your family is very nice. Bhagatjī: Keep patience. I am not dishonest . . . (indistinct Hindi) Devotee: Your breakfast has come. Breakfast is here. Prabhupāda: I'll take. This man, he's not . . . (indistinct) . . . jaya . Devotees: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Come Krishna*-Balaram sabko sukhi kare, aur kya humlog chahte hain. Sab uni ka kripa hai. (May Kṛṣṇa Balarāma make everyone happy, what else do we want? Everything is His mercy.) Balarāma . . . bala-hīnena labhya (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 3.2.4). Wo bhagvan Baladev ka kripa bina yahan kabza nahi hota hai. Wo Vivekananda uska meaning kiya hai. Jiska takat kam hai wo kabhi . . . labh nahi kar sakta. Mota-taaza khub maans khao wo mota-taaza bahut . . . ye hota hai. (Balarāma . . . if He showers His mercy then anything is possible. Vivekananda gave the meaning of this verse to one who has less muscle power . . . what is the use? Fat, sturdy, eats a lot of meat and becomes fat . . . this is what happens.) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: By your mercy, Balarāmajī is giving. *Prabhupāda: Nitāiyer koruṇā habe braje rādhā*-kṛṣṇa pābe . These rascals, they do not know. Nitāi, balarāma hoila nitāi . So without the mercy of Balarāma, nobody can appreciate Vṛndāvana life. Jaya . (end) Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is sādhu . Not the dress. Now, what is the . . . Harikeśa: "The symptoms of a sādhu are that he is tolerant, merciful, and friendly to all living entities. He has no enemies, he is peaceful, he abides by the scriptures and all his characteristics are sublime." *Prabhupāda: This is sādhu . The first qualification is titikṣava , very tolerant. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has said, kṣamā*-rūpaṁ tapasvinām. Those who are tapasvīs , their first duty is how much he is forgiving, how much he has learned to forgive. Kṣamā-rūpaṁ tapasvinām. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena (SB 6.1.13). So what is the explanation? *Harikeśa: Purport? "A sādhu , as described above, is a devotee of the Lord. His concern, therefore, is to enlighten people in devotional service to the Lord. That is his mercy. He knows that without devotional service to the Lord, human life is spoiled. A devotee travels all over the country, from door to door, preaching, 'Be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Be a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Don't spoil your life in simply fulfilling your animal propensities. Human life is meant for self*-realization, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness.' These are the preachings of a sādhu . He is not satisfied with his own liberation. He always thinks about others. He is the most compassionate personality towards all the fallen souls. One of his qualifications, therefore, is kāruṇika , great mercy to the fallen souls. While engaged in preaching work, he has to meet with so many opposing elements, and therefore the sādhu , or devotee of the Lord, has to be very tolerant. Someone may ill-treat him, because the conditioned souls are not prepared to receive the transcendental knowledge of devotional service. They don't like it; *that is their disease. The sādhu has the thankless task of imposing upon them the importance of devotional service. Sometimes devotees are personally attacked with violence. Lord Jesus Christ was crucified, Haridāsa Ṭhākura was caned in twenty*-two marketplaces, and Lord Caitanya's principal assistant, Nityānanda, was violently attacked by Jagāi and Mādhāi. But still they were tolerant because their mission was to deliver the fallen souls. One of the qualifications of a sādhu is that he is very tolerant and is merciful to all fallen souls. He is merciful because he is the well-wisher of all living entities. He is not only a well-wisher of human society, but a well-wisher of animal society as well. It is said here, sarva-dehinām , which indicates all living entities who have accepted a material body. Not only does the human being have a material body, but other living entities, such as cats and dogs, also have material bodies. The devotee of the Lord is merciful to everyone—the cats, dogs, trees, etc. He treats all living entities in such a way that they can ultimately get salvation from this material entanglement. Śivānanda Sena, one of the disciples of Lord Caitanya, gave liberation to a dog by treating the dog transcendentally. There are many instances where a dog got salvation by association with a sādhu , because a sādhu engages in the highest philanthropic activities for the benediction of all living entities. Yet although a sādhu is not inimical towards anyone, the world is so ungrateful that even a sādhu has many enemies." "What is the difference between an enemy and a friend? It is a difference in behavior. A sādhu behaves with all conditioned souls for their ultimate relief from the material entanglement. Therefore, no one can be more friendly than a sādhu in relieving a conditioned soul. A sādhu is calm, and he quietly and peacefully follows the principles of scripture. A sādhu means one who follows the principles of scripture and at the same time is a devotee of the Lord. One who actually follows the principles of scripture must be a devotee of God because all the śāstras instruct us to obey the orders of the Personality of Godhead. Sādhu , therefore, means a follower of the scriptural injunctions and a devotee of the Lord. All these characteristics are prominent in a devotee. A devotee develops all the good qualities of the demigods, whereas a nondevotee, even though academically qualified, has no actual good qualifications or good characteristics . . ." Prabhupāda: Where is this going on? (asking about banging sound) Hari-śauri: That's just the old reception room. Prabhupāda: What is it? Hari-śauri: They are making alterations. Prabhupāda: Alteration? What is that alteration? Hari-śauri: I don't know exactly what they're doing. Harikeśa: No, what they're doing is that room, everybody goes there, the guests all go there. So in the past it's just been a big empty, wasted room. So now what they're doing is making it a big preaching room with photos all around and book tables set up in such a way that someone can just walk in that room and there's a whole exhibit for him to see. And even if . . . Prabhupāda: Who has gotten this idea? Harikeśa: I think Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. It's an exhibition room. Prabhupāda: Then they are breaking wall, or what? Harikeśa: No, no, they're not breaking. They made a big door so that you can walk straight in from the outside. You saw that door yesterday. Now what they're doing is they're building shelves and bookcases. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That sound is disturbing. Harikeśa: Would you like them to stop it until you left? Prabhupāda: If stop, then how their work will go on? They manufacture ideas and spend money. This is the difficulty. Everyone manufactures some idea. And break it, do it, dig it. Money is coming, and they are spending it. They cannot adjust whatever is there. Big, big ideas. Big, big belly. And money we have to bring from America. "Give me one lakh , give me one lakh , 15,000. I make idea, you pay." So many rooms you can make showroom. Why breaking this door, breaking that door? Too many cooks spoils the broth. And repairing and, what is called, addition, alteration, will never stop. I do not know how to stop it. Now, the other, yesterday, that Viśvambhara said . . . you were here, no? Bisancandra said, suggesting there should be rack three feet high, seven feet high, this high . . . everyone will suggest. And spend money. Any friend, you bring him, he'll suggest so that you may spend it. And wherefrom money will come? "Oh, that is your look after. I am your friend, I am giving you good suggestion. Break it. Do it. I am your friend. You break your head." (laughs) There was a Muhammadan king, Raja Uddin or some . . . Nizamuddin. Nizamuddin there is a tomb in Delhi. He was poet. So if some friends come he would read some writing, and he will suggest, the friend will suggest, "Why don't you make like this?" "Oh, it is good. All right." He'll do it, whatever he says. And when he goes away, then again makes his own. So the secretary said, "Why you are changing?" "What can I do? Those associate . . . that is my friend. And that is nonsense; therefore I am again doing what I wrote." So we have to do that. As soon as you call anybody, he'll give you some suggestion, "Make this alteration, make this alteration." Hmm. (pause) Prabhupāda: So description of the sādhu is there. It is very nice. Where they will find this description all over the world? Hmm? Harikeśa: I think there's only one person who's following that description. Prabhupāda: No, I say about Bhāgavata's description. How perfect it is in any subject matter. I have tried to explain what is there in the Bhāgavatam , expand it. That is not my explanation; *that is Kṛṣṇa's explanation. I cannot explain now. That moment I could explain. That means Kṛṣṇa's . . . I can understand that, that the description is very nicely given. Although it is my writing, but I know it is not my writing. It is Kṛṣṇa's writing. So we should read Bhāgavatam always. Nityaṁ bhāgavata*-sevayā (SB 1.2.18). We should not waste our time. So we have to check that closet. You can . . . Harikeśa: "They say there is no . . ." (break) Prabhupāda: Then you are only intelligent. All are fools. That means you are fool number one. If you think like that . . . Harikeśa: Yes, but in India . . . Prabhupāda: No, now you cannot say Indians. (laughs) Now we cannot say only Indians worship Kṛṣṇa. Whole world. That is God. They are not fools and rascals. They are educated, they are civilized. Why they accept Kṛṣṇa as God? Yesterday I was telling who? I think Caraṇam . . .? Hari-śauri: Caraṇāravindam. Prabhupāda: Caraṇāravindam, that the Englishmen were ruling over us. Now here is English boy, he's giving me massage and fanning me. What is the reason? Unless he feels something obligation that, "He has given us Kṛṣṇa," what business he has got? Not for him, for all of you, to give so valuable free service, unless there is this sense. What do you think? You have no obligation. You are European, American. I am Indian. It is through this via media, Kṛṣṇa. This is practical. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is God. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). Because they have got sense that "We have got God," therefore they are feeling so much obliged. Kṛṣṇa is God, there is no doubt about it. It is not yet ready? Hari-śauri: They're making a plate now. Prabhupāda: Viśvambhara is there? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we shall follow strictly. "Here is God. Take." Because if you are serious after God, "Here is God. Take Kṛṣṇa." This is our philosophy. Hmm? What is the answer? If he's serious about God. I think this paper wrote that, that Village ? "We thought God is dead." Hari-śauri: Greenwich Village. Prabhupāda: East Village? That paper? Hari-śauri: It's that paper in New York. Prabhupāda: Long ago. Harikeśa: Village Voice . Prabhupāda: Hah. Village . . . Harikeśa: The Village Voice . Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. They told first that, "We thought God is dead." And actually they were dancing in the name of God, Acyutānanda and Brahmānanda. You have seen the picture showing? Hari-śauri: In this French Back To Godhead . (showing picture) Harikeśa: Oh, that's Acyutānanda too! Oh! Prabhupāda: They were the first candidates to dance with my kīrtana . Harikeśa: I didn't know that was Acyutānanda. I recognize Hayagrīva but . . . Hari-śauri: That's not Hayagrīva, it's Brahmānanda. Harikeśa: That's not Hayagrīva? Prabhupāda: No. Hayagrīva . . . Hari-śauri: It's a picture of Brahmānanda and Acyutānanda dancing, and Prabhupāda's playing on tabla, and there's Kīrtanānanda sat down on the corner. Harikeśa: Boy, was he skinny in those days! This is Brahmānanda? And this is Kīrtanānanda Swami sitting down? Prabhupāda: Just Brahmānanda, Kīrtanānanda standing together. Hari-śauri: Acyutānanda. Prabhupāda: Oh, Acyutānanda. Harikeśa: Acyutānanda. And Kīrtanānanda's sitting down. Prabhupāda: Kīrtanānanda's sitting there? Hari-śauri: Yes. He sat next to you. He's shaved up. Harikeśa: They're so skinny. Prabhupāda: This was published in New York Times . Harikeśa: New York Times ? Prabhupāda: With picture. The other picture was published in Voice, Village Voice , yes. Yes. Big picture. One page. They felt something—otherwise, why they should publish? Appealed to them, that "Here is God." Harikeśa: This is really a historic picture. Prabhupāda: Underneath a tree I was sitting and speaking. That's all. And when I would come back from the park to my apartment, at least two dozen people will come with me. Hari-śauri: Like a Pied Piper. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: There's a story in the West about a man called the Pied Piper. He went to one place and played the flute, and all the children followed him away from the village. You're like the Pied Piper who went to the West, took all the children. Prabhupāda: If you know French language you can read it. Harikeśa: He knows French. Prabhupāda: Ah, you know. What is written there? Hari-śauri: The article is by Hayagrīva, and the heading, it says, "Are you from India?" That was when he met you on the street. Prabhupāda: Yes, he first of all met me on the street and asked me this question. And I brought him, "Yes, I have taken one apartment here. You come here with me." Then I came back to show him the apartment. And from the next day they began to come, Kīrtanānanda and Hayagrīva. Hari-śauri: Second Avenue apartment? Prabhupāda: Yes. And this Umāpati. Then Satsvarūpa. They began to come regularly. Harikeśa: Mukunda, you were already . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, Mukunda was before that. Hari-śauri: When was this, then, when Acyutānanda and Brahmānanda came? That was after . . . Prabhupāda: This was in the park, Tompkinson. Hari-śauri: That was after Hayagrīva and . . . Prabhupāda: No, simultaneous. Harikeśa: This was the fall of 1966. October, maybe. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was going in the park on Sunday and began from three: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, that dundubhi . What is that, in the hand? *Harikeśa: A tom*-tom. *Hari-śauri: Tom*-tom drum. *Prabhupāda: Tom*-tom. Yes. Saurabha: He's explaining why you came to America, and that in three years you spread the mantra all over the Western world. Harikeśa: Yogeśvara has many pictures of this. I saw all of them once. Prabhupāda: He is good collector. (break) What is that reason? What is that reason? *Indian man: To perceive things, and after that we can arrive at long*-term solutions. Prabhupāda: First of all, what is the problem and what is the solution? What is the problem that you require solution? Indian man: Any problem which comes. Prabhupāda: No, what is that? That I want to know. Indian man: Problem is of being happy in the world. Prabhupāda: These are vague terms. You must distinctly say that, "This is happiness" and "This is problem." What is your . . . what is the idea of happiness and what is the problem? That I want to know. Indian man: That I'm not very much clear at this stage of life. Prabhupāda: Happiness . . . suppose if you can get a nice, palatable dish for eating, you'll be happy. But the dog also, if he can get some good eating, he'll be happy. So where is the difference between dog's happiness and your happiness? Indian man: Happiness should be combined with mental peace. Prabhupāda: What is that mental peace? Indian man: To rest in yourself only. Don't run after worldly things. Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is not possible for the animal. Therefore to remain happy within yourself, that is a prerogative of the human being. But we are not trying for that purpose. We are trying to be happy by eating, by sleeping, by sex or by defense. This is our platform of happiness. A dog cannot go to the restaurant, but a human being, if he goes to a restaurant and he can eat palatable dishes, he thinks he's happy. But what is that eating? In your standard you feel happiness, whereas on the street you'll find a pig, he's happy by eating stool. One man's food another man's poison. So eating happiness is there, but the standard different. Therefore this eating is common affair, and happiness derived from eating is as good by the dog as by the pig and human being. Indian man: Your idea is clear. *Prabhupāda: So we should know . . . happiness is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā : sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyaṁ grāhyam (BG 6.21). What is happiness, that is beyond the senses. The sense happiness is there by the pig and the man. But his standard of sense happiness is different from the man's. Standard may be different, but the happiness derived from the subject matter is the same. There is no difference. Indian man: So happiness lies above the senses, above our indriyanas . Prabhupāda: Hah. Happiness means spiritual happiness. That they do not know. Therefore I began my words that so long one is after material happiness he remains as an animal. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) *Because the animal cannot derive spiritual happiness. They do not know. The man can know. Just like this boy, he's coming from very high family in America, but he's now happy in this way, by taking sannyāsa , giving up everything, living very plainly. He has got money, he has got beautiful wife, he has got beautiful home, everything. But he has given up. Not his example . . . in our country there were many many big, big kings, rājarṣis . Just like Bharata Mahārāja. He was emperor of the whole world. He gave up everything at the age of twenty*-four years—young wife, young children. There are many examples. So actually, we have lost our Vedic culture, the objective, and therefore we are suffering. Simply by holding meetings and . . . of course, these things will go on. Government has no other remedy by tax. Whether people are happy or they are unhappy, it doesn't matter. They have got the power, tax. Indian man: Accha sir. (Okay sir.) the end of . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Prasādam . Indian man: Your ideas are superb. Prabhupāda: You remain in Mathurā? Indian man: Yes, I am. Prabhupāda: Here is prasādam . Give. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is sādhu . Not the dress. Now, what is the . . . Harikeśa: "The symptoms of a sādhu are that he is tolerant, merciful, and friendly to all living entities. He has no enemies, he is peaceful, he abides by the scriptures and all his characteristics are sublime." *Prabhupāda: This is sādhu . The first qualification is titikṣava , very tolerant. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has said, kṣamā*-rūpaṁ tapasvinām. Those who are tapasvīs , their first duty is how much he is forgiving, how much he has learned to forgive. Kṣamā-rūpaṁ tapasvinām. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena (SB 6.1.13). So what is the explanation? *Harikeśa: Purport? "A sādhu , as described above, is a devotee of the Lord. His concern, therefore, is to enlighten people in devotional service to the Lord. That is his mercy. He knows that without devotional service to the Lord, human life is spoiled. A devotee travels all over the country, from door to door, preaching, 'Be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Be a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Don't spoil your life in simply fulfilling your animal propensities. Human life is meant for self*-realization, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness.' These are the preachings of a sādhu . He is not satisfied with his own liberation. He always thinks about others. He is the most compassionate personality towards all the fallen souls. One of his qualifications, therefore, is kāruṇika , great mercy to the fallen souls. While engaged in preaching work, he has to meet with so many opposing elements, and therefore the sādhu , or devotee of the Lord, has to be very tolerant. Someone may ill-treat him, because the conditioned souls are not prepared to receive the transcendental knowledge of devotional service. They don't like it; *that is their disease. The sādhu has the thankless task of imposing upon them the importance of devotional service. Sometimes devotees are personally attacked with violence. Lord Jesus Christ was crucified, Haridāsa Ṭhākura was caned in twenty*-two marketplaces, and Lord Caitanya's principal assistant, Nityānanda, was violently attacked by Jagāi and Mādhāi. But still they were tolerant because their mission was to deliver the fallen souls. One of the qualifications of a sādhu is that he is very tolerant and is merciful to all fallen souls. He is merciful because he is the well-wisher of all living entities. He is not only a well-wisher of human society, but a well-wisher of animal society as well. It is said here, sarva-dehinām , which indicates all living entities who have accepted a material body. Not only does the human being have a material body, but other living entities, such as cats and dogs, also have material bodies. The devotee of the Lord is merciful to everyone—the cats, dogs, trees, etc. He treats all living entities in such a way that they can ultimately get salvation from this material entanglement. Śivānanda Sena, one of the disciples of Lord Caitanya, gave liberation to a dog by treating the dog transcendentally. There are many instances where a dog got salvation by association with a sādhu , because a sādhu engages in the highest philanthropic activities for the benediction of all living entities. Yet although a sādhu is not inimical towards anyone, the world is so ungrateful that even a sādhu has many enemies." "What is the difference between an enemy and a friend? It is a difference in behavior. A sādhu behaves with all conditioned souls for their ultimate relief from the material entanglement. Therefore, no one can be more friendly than a sādhu in relieving a conditioned soul. A sādhu is calm, and he quietly and peacefully follows the principles of scripture. A sādhu means one who follows the principles of scripture and at the same time is a devotee of the Lord. One who actually follows the principles of scripture must be a devotee of God because all the śāstras instruct us to obey the orders of the Personality of Godhead. Sādhu , therefore, means a follower of the scriptural injunctions and a devotee of the Lord. All these characteristics are prominent in a devotee. A devotee develops all the good qualities of the demigods, whereas a nondevotee, even though academically qualified, has no actual good qualifications or good characteristics . . ." Prabhupāda: Where is this going on? (asking about banging sound) Hari-śauri: That's just the old reception room. Prabhupāda: What is it? Hari-śauri: They are making alterations. Prabhupāda: Alteration? What is that alteration? Hari-śauri: I don't know exactly what they're doing. Harikeśa: No, what they're doing is that room, everybody goes there, the guests all go there. So in the past it's just been a big empty, wasted room. So now what they're doing is making it a big preaching room with photos all around and book tables set up in such a way that someone can just walk in that room and there's a whole exhibit for him to see. And even if . . . Prabhupāda: Who has gotten this idea? Harikeśa: I think Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. It's an exhibition room. Prabhupāda: Then they are breaking wall, or what? Harikeśa: No, no, they're not breaking. They made a big door so that you can walk straight in from the outside. You saw that door yesterday. Now what they're doing is they're building shelves and bookcases. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That sound is disturbing. Harikeśa: Would you like them to stop it until you left? Prabhupāda: If stop, then how their work will go on? They manufacture ideas and spend money. This is the difficulty. Everyone manufactures some idea. And break it, do it, dig it. Money is coming, and they are spending it. They cannot adjust whatever is there. Big, big ideas. Big, big belly. And money we have to bring from America. "Give me one lakh , give me one lakh , 15,000. I make idea, you pay." So many rooms you can make showroom. Why breaking this door, breaking that door? Too many cooks spoils the broth. And repairing and, what is called, addition, alteration, will never stop. I do not know how to stop it. Now, the other, yesterday, that Viśvambhara said . . . you were here, no? Bisancandra said, suggesting there should be rack three feet high, seven feet high, this high . . . everyone will suggest. And spend money. Any friend, you bring him, he'll suggest so that you may spend it. And wherefrom money will come? "Oh, that is your look after. I am your friend, I am giving you good suggestion. Break it. Do it. I am your friend. You break your head." (laughs) There was a Muhammadan king, Raja Uddin or some . . . Nizamuddin. Nizamuddin there is a tomb in Delhi. He was poet. So if some friends come he would read some writing, and he will suggest, the friend will suggest, "Why don't you make like this?" "Oh, it is good. All right." He'll do it, whatever he says. And when he goes away, then again makes his own. So the secretary said, "Why you are changing?" "What can I do? Those associate . . . that is my friend. And that is nonsense; therefore I am again doing what I wrote." So we have to do that. As soon as you call anybody, he'll give you some suggestion, "Make this alteration, make this alteration." Hmm. (pause) Prabhupāda: So description of the sādhu is there. It is very nice. Where they will find this description all over the world? Hmm? Harikeśa: I think there's only one person who's following that description. Prabhupāda: No, I say about Bhāgavata's description. How perfect it is in any subject matter. I have tried to explain what is there in the Bhāgavatam , expand it. That is not my explanation; *that is Kṛṣṇa's explanation. I cannot explain now. That moment I could explain. That means Kṛṣṇa's . . . I can understand that, that the description is very nicely given. Although it is my writing, but I know it is not my writing. It is Kṛṣṇa's writing. So we should read Bhāgavatam always. Nityaṁ bhāgavata*-sevayā (SB 1.2.18). We should not waste our time. So we have to check that closet. You can . . . Harikeśa: "They say there is no . . ." (break) Prabhupāda: Then you are only intelligent. All are fools. That means you are fool number one. If you think like that . . . Harikeśa: Yes, but in India . . . Prabhupāda: No, now you cannot say Indians. (laughs) Now we cannot say only Indians worship Kṛṣṇa. Whole world. That is God. They are not fools and rascals. They are educated, they are civilized. Why they accept Kṛṣṇa as God? Yesterday I was telling who? I think Caraṇam . . .? Hari-śauri: Caraṇāravindam. Prabhupāda: Caraṇāravindam, that the Englishmen were ruling over us. Now here is English boy, he's giving me massage and fanning me. What is the reason? Unless he feels something obligation that, "He has given us Kṛṣṇa," what business he has got? Not for him, for all of you, to give so valuable free service, unless there is this sense. What do you think? You have no obligation. You are European, American. I am Indian. It is through this via media, Kṛṣṇa. This is practical. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is God. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). Because they have got sense that "We have got God," therefore they are feeling so much obliged. Kṛṣṇa is God, there is no doubt about it. It is not yet ready? Hari-śauri: They're making a plate now. Prabhupāda: Viśvambhara is there? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we shall follow strictly. "Here is God. Take." Because if you are serious after God, "Here is God. Take Kṛṣṇa." This is our philosophy. Hmm? What is the answer? If he's serious about God. I think this paper wrote that, that Village ? "We thought God is dead." Hari-śauri: Greenwich Village. Prabhupāda: East Village? That paper? Hari-śauri: It's that paper in New York. Prabhupāda: Long ago. Harikeśa: Village Voice . Prabhupāda: Hah. Village . . . Harikeśa: The Village Voice . Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. They told first that, "We thought God is dead." And actually they were dancing in the name of God, Acyutānanda and Brahmānanda. You have seen the picture showing? Hari-śauri: In this French Back To Godhead . (showing picture) Harikeśa: Oh, that's Acyutānanda too! Oh! Prabhupāda: They were the first candidates to dance with my kīrtana . Harikeśa: I didn't know that was Acyutānanda. I recognize Hayagrīva but . . . Hari-śauri: That's not Hayagrīva, it's Brahmānanda. Harikeśa: That's not Hayagrīva? Prabhupāda: No. Hayagrīva . . . Hari-śauri: It's a picture of Brahmānanda and Acyutānanda dancing, and Prabhupāda's playing on tabla, and there's Kīrtanānanda sat down on the corner. Harikeśa: Boy, was he skinny in those days! This is Brahmānanda? And this is Kīrtanānanda Swami sitting down? Prabhupāda: Just Brahmānanda, Kīrtanānanda standing together. Hari-śauri: Acyutānanda. Prabhupāda: Oh, Acyutānanda. Harikeśa: Acyutānanda. And Kīrtanānanda's sitting down. Prabhupāda: Kīrtanānanda's sitting there? Hari-śauri: Yes. He sat next to you. He's shaved up. Harikeśa: They're so skinny. Prabhupāda: This was published in New York Times . Harikeśa: New York Times ? Prabhupāda: With picture. The other picture was published in Voice, Village Voice , yes. Yes. Big picture. One page. They felt something—otherwise, why they should publish? Appealed to them, that "Here is God." Harikeśa: This is really a historic picture. Prabhupāda: Underneath a tree I was sitting and speaking. That's all. And when I would come back from the park to my apartment, at least two dozen people will come with me. Hari-śauri: Like a Pied Piper. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: There's a story in the West about a man called the Pied Piper. He went to one place and played the flute, and all the children followed him away from the village. You're like the Pied Piper who went to the West, took all the children. Prabhupāda: If you know French language you can read it. Harikeśa: He knows French. Prabhupāda: Ah, you know. What is written there? Hari-śauri: The article is by Hayagrīva, and the heading, it says, "Are you from India?" That was when he met you on the street. Prabhupāda: Yes, he first of all met me on the street and asked me this question. And I brought him, "Yes, I have taken one apartment here. You come here with me." Then I came back to show him the apartment. And from the next day they began to come, Kīrtanānanda and Hayagrīva. Hari-śauri: Second Avenue apartment? Prabhupāda: Yes. And this Umāpati. Then Satsvarūpa. They began to come regularly. Harikeśa: Mukunda, you were already . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, Mukunda was before that. Hari-śauri: When was this, then, when Acyutānanda and Brahmānanda came? That was after . . . Prabhupāda: This was in the park, Tompkinson. Hari-śauri: That was after Hayagrīva and . . . Prabhupāda: No, simultaneous. Harikeśa: This was the fall of 1966. October, maybe. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was going in the park on Sunday and began from three: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, that dundubhi . What is that, in the hand? *Harikeśa: A tom*-tom. *Hari-śauri: Tom*-tom drum. *Prabhupāda: Tom*-tom. Yes. Saurabha: He's explaining why you came to America, and that in three years you spread the mantra all over the Western world. Harikeśa: Yogeśvara has many pictures of this. I saw all of them once. Prabhupāda: He is good collector. (break) What is that reason? What is that reason? *Indian man: To perceive things, and after that we can arrive at long*-term solutions. Prabhupāda: First of all, what is the problem and what is the solution? What is the problem that you require solution? Indian man: Any problem which comes. Prabhupāda: No, what is that? That I want to know. Indian man: Problem is of being happy in the world. Prabhupāda: These are vague terms. You must distinctly say that, "This is happiness" and "This is problem." What is your . . . what is the idea of happiness and what is the problem? That I want to know. Indian man: That I'm not very much clear at this stage of life. Prabhupāda: Happiness . . . suppose if you can get a nice, palatable dish for eating, you'll be happy. But the dog also, if he can get some good eating, he'll be happy. So where is the difference between dog's happiness and your happiness? Indian man: Happiness should be combined with mental peace. Prabhupāda: What is that mental peace? Indian man: To rest in yourself only. Don't run after worldly things. Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is not possible for the animal. Therefore to remain happy within yourself, that is a prerogative of the human being. But we are not trying for that purpose. We are trying to be happy by eating, by sleeping, by sex or by defense. This is our platform of happiness. A dog cannot go to the restaurant, but a human being, if he goes to a restaurant and he can eat palatable dishes, he thinks he's happy. But what is that eating? In your standard you feel happiness, whereas on the street you'll find a pig, he's happy by eating stool. One man's food another man's poison. So eating happiness is there, but the standard different. Therefore this eating is common affair, and happiness derived from eating is as good by the dog as by the pig and human being. Indian man: Your idea is clear. *Prabhupāda: So we should know . . . happiness is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā : sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyaṁ grāhyam (BG 6.21). What is happiness, that is beyond the senses. The sense happiness is there by the pig and the man. But his standard of sense happiness is different from the man's. Standard may be different, but the happiness derived from the subject matter is the same. There is no difference. Indian man: So happiness lies above the senses, above our indriyanas . Prabhupāda: Hah. Happiness means spiritual happiness. That they do not know. Therefore I began my words that so long one is after material happiness he remains as an animal. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) *Because the animal cannot derive spiritual happiness. They do not know. The man can know. Just like this boy, he's coming from very high family in America, but he's now happy in this way, by taking sannyāsa , giving up everything, living very plainly. He has got money, he has got beautiful wife, he has got beautiful home, everything. But he has given up. Not his example . . . in our country there were many many big, big kings, rājarṣis . Just like Bharata Mahārāja. He was emperor of the whole world. He gave up everything at the age of twenty*-four years—young wife, young children. There are many examples. So actually, we have lost our Vedic culture, the objective, and therefore we are suffering. Simply by holding meetings and . . . of course, these things will go on. Government has no other remedy by tax. Whether people are happy or they are unhappy, it doesn't matter. They have got the power, tax. Indian man: Accha sir. (Okay sir.) the end of . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Prasādam . Indian man: Your ideas are superb. Prabhupāda: You remain in Mathurā? Indian man: Yes, I am. Prabhupāda: Here is prasādam . Give. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . no, that is wrong . . . (indistinct) . . . sannyāsī should go on preaching, preaching, preaching, preaching. Practically, I was sitting here in Vṛndāvana, in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple. So at the age of seventy years, nobody goes out. At least from Vṛndāvana nobody goes at the age of seventy years. But Kṛṣṇa asked me. I thought that "I must go. Guru Mahārāja wanted it, Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . let me try." So if I had not gone, then this institution would not have developed. So this is practical. Mahataḥ nirvicaraṇam . Mahātmā , they must move. So when there is absolute necessity they may stay. Otherwise, they must move. Move on, move on, move on, move on, move on. No staying. That is principle. No staying. I am this old age, I cannot move . . . my . . . I . . . so many . . . still I am traveling all over the world. I am simply interested that whatever I have done, it may not be vanquished in my absence. Let me go and encourage them. Otherwise, I have no capacity to move now. But still I am moving, only for this purpose. Girinaṁ gṛhna-cetasam . So a sannyāsī must move. A sannyāsī must not stay anywhere more than three days. That is the principle. So he was moving, but his moving is creating disturbances here. Therefore I have stopped. And besides that, a temple is nirguṇa . A sannyāsī is forbidden to stay anywhere else, but in a temple he can stay for more than three days, provided there is business. Otherwise, there is no necessity. So this is the exclusion. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That solves all the problems. *Prabhupāda: No, solves or not solves, we shall see later on. But this is the principle. This is the principle. Solution . . . if we do not become very simple servant of Kṛṣṇa, problems will increase. It will never be solved. If you have got any other desire than to serve Kṛṣṇa, then the problems will increase. It will never decrease. Therefore bhakti begins, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). No other purpose than to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is only purpose. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). So our only business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa in His original status as Kṛṣṇa, and in His other status as Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and in both ways, He's insisting to preach. That is a very important business. Neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu nor Kṛṣṇa has recommended that you become a great devotee and sit down in a place and talk big, big words and simply eat and sleep. Kṛṣṇa has never said. That is not Kṛṣṇa's, neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu's business. That is not required. Boro boro badorer boro boro pet, lanka dingate matha kore het. (Big big monkey, big big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy.) "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." There are very many big, big bellies in Vṛndāvana, but if they're asked to preach Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission all over the world—melancholy. Melancholy. Big, big monkey, big, big belly. So you have taken a very great mission that world preaching. That is very, very nice decision. So you have got buses and you have got capacity. You do this. And one in Germany, one in India, come and go, come and go. What do you think? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Then I want to do that, but there are some problems which I'm experiencing. Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: Well, for instance, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa has the habit of deporting my men to different centers, even against their will. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't have that habit. Haṁsadūta: Then the men . . . I explained the other night . . . Prabhupāda: Let him explain, don't . . . Haṁsadūta: When we come to a center, naturally there are certain men who want to go traveling. Not all men want to go traveling, but there are definitely some who want to go traveling. And if they come to me, what should I do? Tell them, "No, I'm sorry"? Prabhupāda: No, no, traveling, if somebody wants to travel, what he is? First of all you must know. A brahmacārī , a sannyāsī , they are meant for preaching. Not gṛhasthas . Haṁsadūta: No, not gṛhasthas . I'm not taking any gṛhasthas . Prabhupāda: So if a brahmacārī , gṛhastha , yes, if he wants to travel, so there is no objection. Haṁsadūta: But what is happening is that, for instance, someone will join me, then Gopāla will catch up with him and send the man to Delhi or to Hyderabad. The man will run away and come back again, and again he will be forced to go away. This is what I object to. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, this is wrong. I'll tell you what the facts are. In every temple there are certain key positions for some devotee. In no temple we are trying to keep more men than necessary. Sometimes they come and he preaches to them and he gives them money. If he is the temple president . . . like in Bombay Haṁsadūta came, he had a fight with Girirāja. Girirāja was ready to write such a strong letter to you. He gave money to few devotees . . . Prabhupāda: The temple establishment, that has to be maintained. Haṁsadūta: That I understand. Prabhupāda, I understand that. Prabhupāda: So why, why the . . .? Besides that, if you want to take someone or if anyone is willing to go with you, the president of the local temple, he should be requested. Or the man who wants to go, that "I want to go with him," so if the president thinks that he can be spared, then he can go. But if he thinks that his presence is necessary, why he should go? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is one of the GBC resolutions. No devotee can go without the temple president's permission. Haṁsadūta: I understand . . . Prabhupāda: I cannot hear two. Let him . . . when I ask him . . . Haṁsadūta: In this particular instance, and practically always, I do that. But Girirāja was so unreasonable about the matter that the boy actually ran away. Prabhupāda: No, no, that, that, there are so many people . . . if you do not satisfy his senses, everyone is free to run away. That you cannot check. You cannot say, accuse somebody or somebody. Because here everyone is giving voluntary service. Nobody is servant. So if he doesn't like something, at any moment he can go away. At any moment. Just like yesterday the Śāstrī came. So he went away. And somebody, they are coming, going. So you cannot check them, because they are not our paid servants. If they are very kind that they have come here, cooperating with us. But still there is some decency, if one is engaged in some work, all of a sudden he should go away, all of a sudden . . . that is not very good. That is not very good. Decently that, "I used to go, and now in preaching work, so there will be no difficulty," this is the arrangement. Something must be done. All of a sudden, if somebody goes, that isn't very good. Tamāla also, if he did so, that is not good. Because I want some men, I cannot kidnap from any place. That is not good. We must see that the management is going on, the management may not suffer. But the president should allow to go if there is extra men. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Another point in this connection, Prabhupāda, the men who come with me, they don't stay with me forever. They will stay a few months some of them, and then they go. In this way . . . Prabhupāda: Then that is the habit . . . Haṁsadūta: For instance, in this temple, there are so many men which are on our party who are . . . Prabhupāda: So many men. We don't want so many men. Now we are going to minimize. We don't want so many men. That if . . . now we have to estimate how many men absolutely required. So many men we shall keep. Others, they must go to the preaching. They must go to the preaching. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can all go on the buses, the extra men. Prabhupāda: No, they should be distributed. They may go to other centers. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hyderabad needs men. *Prabhupāda: Here, unnecessarily increasing men and increasing expenditure, twenty thousand, twenty*-five thousand, thirty thousand. Why? Unnecessary. Only minimum men should be kept who are actually useful. There is no need of keeping extra men. What is that? Harikeśa: When you originally were speaking about Vṛndāvana, you mentioned that Vṛndāvana would be a place for those people who have become a little disturbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or burned out, we call it, from so much activity, that he comes here and gets rejuvenated here. Is that still . . . *Prabhupāda: That is a fact, but provided he is devotee. If he's not a devotee then he will go away, here and there, here and there. That is the habit. And a devotee is satisfied anywhere. A devotee is not that, "I'll go to Vṛndāvana, then I'll be satisfied." Nārāyaṇa*-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). I did not go to your country taking Vṛndāvana with me. I had to stay in places where in the refrigerator there is meat. And I was cooking. When I opened it I saw, "Here is meat. All right, what can be done? Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. Akṣayānanda: But actually you did take Vṛndāvana with you. Prabhupāda: So if I would have stuck to Vṛndāvana, "No, no, I cannot go anywhere, leaving Vṛndāvana . . ." No, we can go to hell if there is Kṛṣṇa's service. Harikeśa: So is there some time that maybe somebody could stay here when he comes in that frame of consciousness? Prabhupāda: No, no, it is . . . not that. It should be now restricted. Not that anyone comes and whimsically goes away. This should be restricted. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These devotees just create a disturbance, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They don't want to be engaged, and everybody copies them and the whole atmosphere gets . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Akṣayānanda: A lot of devotees think . . . they come here . . . "Therefore work is not necessary. Simply chanting and being in Vṛndāvana is nice." That's wrong. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Chanting, but there is expenditure. Who will collect this twenty*-five thousand? It is increasing. Akṣayānanda: We have one kitchen, as you said . . . *Prabhupāda: I can maintain them, provided they are actually serious about making progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not that some lazy fellow will come, and because he has come to Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa*-candra has become very much obliged to him. Kṛṣṇa-candra had no other friend. He has come from somebody. That mentality should be curtailed. Harikeśa: What if he comes with money to pay for himself. Prabhupāda: Is there a guesthouse? Stay. There is no harm. There is guesthouse, he can pay and stay. But here we shall keep only minimum number of men without whom we cannot make . . . manage it. That's all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, how it is possible? Who will bring twenty*-five thousand per month? I'm surprised. Twenty-five . . . Pacchis hazar. (Twenty-five thousand.) Akṣayānanda: It's much more. Sometimes thirty. *Prabhupāda: So this must be stopped immediately. We cannot pay more than five thousand. You stop. We cannot pay. Ye hona chahiye. Ye hona chahiye. Ye kya adda*-khana hai kya? (This has to be ensured. This must be ensured. Is this a place for having picnics?) My Guru Mahārāja used to say, Khawa-dawar adda-khana. (Eating and drinking club) "Joint mess." This is not possible, that we have to maintain a big bundle of burden. What is this? Akṣayānanda: But still, we have to welcome anyone who comes. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-five thousand, thirty thousand per month? What is this? Where is that temple in Vṛndāvana who is spending twenty-five thousand, thirty thousand? Can you say any temple? Bhagatjī: Not more than five thousand. Prabhupāda: That's it. So we cannot pay more than five thousand. Akṣayānanda: For eating? Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Then clothing is more? Clothing is more? Maintenance? Prabhupāda: No, everything. Hundred rupees per head. You do not require to collect. I shall pay five thousand. Harikeśa: Then there should be a budget here. Prabhupāda: Budget is there. Hundred rupees per head. Fifty men if you keep, it is five thousand. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can keep less. We don't want fifty. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. It will be less. But I'm prepared to pay you five thousand rupees for fifty men. Not more than that. That I can pay. You do not require to collect. You sit down, but work hard here. Not that eating, sleeping. No. That cannot be. That cannot be done. They must be engaged twenty*-four hours. That is wanted. It is not a lazy, a free hotel. Anyone lives, he must be engaged twenty-four hours. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). If he has no work, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa here. That should be done. *Akṣayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We have the twenty*-four hour kīrtana. I've requested everyone who comes to do at least one hour per day. Prabhupāda: There is no question. This is the condition. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I've made it a rule. *Prabhupāda: If you agree, then stay here. Otherwise, you go to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. Akṣayānanda: Also visiting devotees should do that too. Anyone who comes here should do that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone. Prabhupāda: You must make a rule. Akṣayānanda: At least one hour in the temple. Prabhupāda: Why one hour? Four hours. Four hours. Four times. Morning, evening, night, morning again. Akṣayānanda: Already the rule is made . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, already rules are . . . just like to continue kīrtana there must be four batches. Akṣayānanda: Yes, four men I have . . . Prabhupāda: Four batches. That means six hours, four. Three hours. Three hours, not four hours. So one batch four hours. From morning six to nine. Another batch from nine to twelve. Another batch twelve to three. Another batch three to six. Again the morning batch six to . . . *Akṣayānanda: Eight different batches, that makes a total of thirty*-two. *Prabhupāda: That's all. Not . . . why thirty*-two? Twice one batch. One batch attending once in the morning, once in the evening. *Bhagatjī: Sixteen. Solah admi. Char*-char admi ek batch me. Char batch banaye apne. Solah ho gaye. (Sixteen men. Four men will be there in one batch. You made four batches. So the total becomes sixteen.) Prabhupāda: So then if there is fifty men, we cannot spare sixteen men? Akṣayānanda: Very nice. Prabhupāda: Everything is nice. Only to be managed. Akṣayānanda: Yes, it has to be done. Prabhupāda: Only to be managed. So I am prepared, I'll pay you. Even if you have no money I'll pay you five thousand. Keep fifty men. Akṣayānanda: I don't think it's necessary for you to pay. Prabhupāda: So if necessary, I'm prepared. That's all right. Akṣayānanda: No, it's not necessary. Prabhupāda: Then thank you. That is another thing. But fifty men you can keep. Fifty men you can keep. And there is collection in the box. There is collection by prasādam, so many other things. Bhagatjī: And the altars. *Prabhupāda: So that should be engaged fully in Deity worship. Not extravagant. That I shall see. I shall remain here, how things are going on. I shall manage myself. I shall see how things are going on. So anyway, fifty men, five thousand. No more twenty*-five thousand. Forget. No more twenty-five. Harikeśa: That's three rupees a day. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Three point thirty*-three. Haṁsadūta: If it's three rupees, thirty paisa a day for eating, soap and toothpaste . . . *Prabhupāda: No soap. Take this Rādhā*-kuṇḍa's . . . why soap? You are so devotee of Rādhā-kuṇḍa, why you require soap? This is nonsense. You take earth from the Rādhā-kuṇḍa or Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana-dhūli. Why you require soap? Bhagatjī: Pundrah saal ho gaye, maine aj tak sabun nahi lagaya. (Fifteen years have passed but I have never used soap until today.) *Prabhupāda: Radha*-kunda wo jane wala hai aur sabun! Hum bol raha hai jo Radha-kund jane wala aur chahiye sabun! Lijiye. Ye bevakuf Radha-kund me jane wala hai. Ye narak-kund me jane wala hai. Jo narak-kund jata hai uske liye sabun zarurat hai. Radha-kund jane wala ko sabun kya zarurat . . . (indistinct) . . . (He is going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa but he requires soap. My point is that he needs soap for going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa? Just see. This fool is planning to visit Rādhā-kuṇḍa. He will go to hell-kuṇḍa. Those who go to hell-kuṇḍa require soap for bathing. What is the use of soap for someone going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa . . . (indistinct) . . .) Nim datun ? I was doing nim datun until the teeth fell down. You will know that I was collecting nim . But now it is impossible. That also I have manufactured my own toothpaste. I purchase only the brush, and I made my toothpaste at home. I never used any toothpaste. Even in my young days, I never used. You have seen it practically. Not only that now I have become sannyāsī . When I was gṛhastha I never used. When I was gṛhastha I was using that nim datun regularly. Akṣayānanda: So we'll do, definitely. Prabhupāda: And I can give you the paste. Akṣayānanda: The recipe. Prabhupāda: So if you cannot use nim datun, you can use this paste. Very simple. Bhagatji: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kyu, batayenge kyu? Batayenge nahi. Wo humara secret hai. (laughter) So ye aisa karo ki bas ab ye sab . . . aur ye sab jo formula hai, jo manage kar sakega wo manager. (Why should I tell you? I am not going to tell you. It is my secret. (laughter) So do this then everything . . . and all these formulas, one who successfully executes them is a real manager.) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ab ho jayega . . . thik hai. Zarur. Ab ho jayega. Abhi hum log devotee kam kar lenge to ye sab . . . bahar ka koi rehne nahi denge kyuki bahar ka bahut log ate hai, kaam nahi karte. Ab ho jayega. (Now it will be done. Definitely. It will be done. We will now reduce the number of devotee . . . we will not let any outsider stay in the āśrama because then there are too many people staying here without doing any work.) Prabhupāda: Bahar ka kaun ata hai? (Who are these outsiders?) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotee log ate hai, bahar ke visitors aur zyada kaam nahi karte. Unko bolenge chanting karna hai, kaam karna hai nahi to guest house me raho. Aisa karenge. Brahmachari ashram me jisko bhi rehne ka . . . (Devotees are there as well as other visitors who stay in the āśrama without doing any work. We will tell them to chant daily and render some service or else shift to the guest house. We will implement this. Whoever wants to stay in the brahmacārī āśrama should . . .) Prabhupāda: Bahar ka kaun ata hai? (Who are these outsiders?) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotees, then visiting . . . *Akṣayānanda: One problem is that these devotees who are not serious, we say they cannot stay here. Yet, because they are still attracted to Vṛndāvana, many times they go and find a place outside the temple in Vṛndāvana, and they make a bad example. This problem we cannot solve. Or they go to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa and live. We say: "You cannot stay here because you won't help in some way." Therefore they . . . Prabhupāda: No, cannot stay . . . you can allow three days free. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Three days. Okay. Prabhupāda: You can receive guest for three days. Not permanently. And they can . . . that is very reasonable. If they have come, spending so much to Vṛndāvana, they cannot pay? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They usually have money. Everyone who comes from America, Europe, has some money. Prabhupāda: Then? What is the difficulty? What is the difficulty if they have got money? Bhagatjī: See the shop here. See all the shop, whether they have got money or not. You have opened a canteen here, and you can note from there who has got money. Prabhupāda: No, money they have got. There is no doubt. They are not coming from poor country, either poor. No, we are welcoming, provided he is reasonable. Simply to exploit, that is not good. That is not good. What do you think? In our Indian system, if somebody goes to a sādhu's āśrama , especially gṛhastha , immediately he pays fifty rupees, hundred rupees. He'll not stay more than three days, four days. But he knows, "The sādhu , wherefrom he'll bring money? Take." They are paying without staying. Just like yesterday this man came, and you have seen so many people come. In your country also it is done. That is up to the man's conscience, that "I have come here, so I require to stay. Pay something." But not that . . . that should be properly expended. So anything can be done very nicely provided there is good management. I do not see any difficulty. Karo sab. (Do everything properly.) I am present here. If there is any difficulty, ask me. I shall advise. Bhagatjī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Nahi, wo . . . ye to zarur hona chahiye . . . (No, at least this must be ensured that . . .) Per head hundred rupees is sufficient. Not more than that. Even . . . how many devotees are here now? Akṣayānanda: We have sixty. About sixty. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: More than that. *Akṣayānanda: Sixty, sixty*-three. There are many women over there. Usually there's about sixty. Normally there has been about . . . Prabhupāda: Up to fifty I take charge. I shall pay hundred rupees per head. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't need more than fifty, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because Hyderabad needs devotees. Prabhupāda: If there are more, they can go to other centers. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now we have the farm in Hyderabad. Mahāṁsa's asking for men for the farm, for the temple. They can give . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got the biggest farm. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Six*-hundred-acre farm. Prabhupāda: As we have organized New Vrindavan farm and Philadelphia farm, so the farm was also to be organized by you. That was the contemplation. So six hundred acres of land. Very nice land. Very nice land. Six hundreds, and it is not with . . . (indistinct) . . . like Vṛndāvana, but very fertile land. Harikeśa: It can produce enough food to feed the whole society. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhagatjī: Irrigation system? Prabhupāda: Irrigation? Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda? Do you want me to take care of that scheme still? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That would be best. Prabhupāda: Why not? Haṁsadūta: The thing is, the money that I had put aside for that farm I gave to Mahāṁsa, so he should give it back. Prabhupāda: You should be very much encouraged. Haṁsadūta: No, the money that I put aside to start that farm, to buy some irrigation equipment and so forth—initial investment—I gave it to Mahāṁsa on your order, one lakh of rupees. Prabhupāda: One lakh ? Haṁsadūta: I gave him one lakh . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is for construction, and he's going to give it back. Prabhupāda: No, that is for construction. That is not for the farm. Harikeśa: No, no, that money, I intended to use for the farm. But it took so long to get that farm. So when . . . you said that he should pay it back. Prabhupāda: No, that can be . . . that I guaranteed. That I guaranteed one lakh, that if he does not pay, I shall do it. That guarantee still. Haṁsadūta: Should I develop that scheme there? Prabhupāda: Yes, let us have the farm first of all. I do not know what is the position now. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's coming soon, Mahāṁsa said. So he can develop the farm. *Prabhupāda: So your main business should be mahad*-vicalanaṁ . Calanaṁ vicalanam . Haṁsadūta: It's just that in this one particular problem it would be better, that's all. He has already sent them away. He has already sent a number of men away. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? And they are all the temple devotees. What I'm saying is don't rob men from these temples have to be supported. They're taking away men from the temples, and the temples . . . *Haṁsadūta: I don't want to make a fuss, but right now there are six or seven first*-class men who are working in your temple who are on this party. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Take them all, but still the temple will go on. Prabhupāda: He can take them. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Take them out. Haṁsadūta: That's what I'm afraid, that he's going to . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Your men you take. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I am only requesting you to return the temple devotees which you have stolen. That's all. I don't want men from this party. We will manage it. Just return the temple devotees. Haṁsadūta: There are other men who are . . . (indistinct talking back and forth to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa) Prabhupāda: Yesterday I told him that temple painting is going on . . . who is painting? I never saw. *Bhagatjī: Nau baje se panch baje tak . . . (indistinct) . . . aat ghante . . . (indistinct) . . . nau baje shuru karte hai, wo roti*-woti khake ate hai aur panch baje tak karte hai. (From 9 am to 5 pm . . . (indistinct) . . . 8 hours . . . (indistinct) . . . they take a heavy meal before coming here and start work at 9 am. Then they work till 5 pm.) Prabhupāda: Upar me kaise karte hai? (How are they painting on the top?) Bhagatjī: Upar me tay kar liya, abhi niche ka aap a gaye hai . . . (That we have managed. Now you have come regarding the ground floor . . .) Prabhupāda: Niche kaha kar rahe hai? (Where are they painting on the ground floor?) Bhagatjī: Uss taraf. (On that side.) Prabhupāda: Haa? Uss taraf? (What? On that side?) Bhagatjī: Uss taraf . . . (There . . .) Prabhupāda: Backside me kyu? (Why on the backside?) Bhagatjī: Jaha prasad lete hai . . . (Where we take prasadam . . .) Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.) Akṣayānanda: So we should have one kitchen only. One kitchen? As we had discussed last night. Now we have a Deity kitchen and a devotee kitchen. We also have a guesthouse kitchen. Prabhupāda: Why three? (indistinct comments by Bhagatjī) Akṣayānanda: So the devotee kitchen and Deity kitchen could be made into one. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's decided. Akṣayānanda: Yes. So I'll give you a list of the preparations we'll offer, for your approval. It means we'll be offering less to the Deity. Prabhupāda: What is difficulty? Bhagatjī: . . . un logo ka kharcha . . . (indistinct) . . . garland, sab iska kam se kam solah sau rupaya mahine ka kharcha hai . . . (indistinct) . . . pehle to do hazar tha. Maine unko competition karke panch sau rupaye less karke . . . (their expenditure . . . (indistinct) . . . minimum monthly expenditure for garlands is sixteen hundred rupees . . . (indistinct) . . . it was two thousand initially but I negotiated with them and reduced it by five hundred rupees . . .) Prabhupāda: Solah sau rupaya phool! (Flowers are worth sixteen hundred rupees!) Bhagatjī: Phool, mala, sab itna mahine ka . . . (Flowers, garlands, all together for one month . . .) Prabhupāda: Ye to murkhta hai. Nahi, ye jo pachas rupaya phool . . . ye jo pachas rupaya ka phool . . . (indistinct) . . . deta hai. (This is ridiculous. No, these daily flowers are worth fifty rupees . . . (indistinct) . . . they are giving.) Bhagatjī: . . . me deta hai. Phool lagte hai phool. (. . . they are giving. This many flowers are always required.) *Prabhupāda: Deta hai to Bhagavan ke liye phool liya jaye par ye humara sir me itna phool sajane ka kya zarurat hai. Bhagavan ke liye bas panch saat mala le . . . (Okay, let them purchase for the Deities but why decorate me with so many flowers? For the Deities, you can purchase five to seven garlands . . .) How many Deities are there? Guru*-Gaurāṅga, four; *Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma, two; six, and . . . Akṣayānanda: Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā and the gopīs. Prabhupāda: Ten. So . . . *Akṣayānanda: Chote Radha*-Krishna humare. (Our small Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.) *Prabhupāda: Char Radha*-Krishna, do Krishna-Balarama aur char Guru-Gauranga. (Four Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, two Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma and four Guru-Gaurāṅga.) *Akṣayānanda: And small Deity of Gaura*-Nitāi, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Small deities are small . . . to garland kitna leta hai? (. . . so how much do they take for garlands?) Bhagatjī: Garland ka to . . . mala ke to har ek ka alag alag daam hai. Ek rupaye ki to gulab ki mala . . . (indistinct) . . . ek pichattar paise ki hai, tulsi mala ati hai wo sawa rupaye ki lagti hai. (Each garland has a different price. Rose garland is 1 rupee . . . (indistinct) . . . one is 75 paisa, tulsi garland is 1 rupee and 15 paisa.) Prabhupāda: Nahi, tulsi bhi nahi chahiye, gulab bhi nahi chahiye, aisi chahiye. (No, we neither need a rose garland nor a tulsi garland. This one is good enough.) Bhagatjī: . . . bahut sasti rahegi tab (. . . it will be very cheap then . . .) Prabhupāda: Ha, ek dum sahi . . . (Yes, perfectly fine . . .) Bhagatjī: (laughter) Bhagavan ke liye sugandhit phulo ki mala, malati ki, gulab ki . . . (For the Lord, we can take some fragrant flower garlands like jasmine, rose . . .) Prabhupāda: Kabhi kabhi lena, rozana nahi. (On some days you may take but not daily.) Bhagatjī: Bazar me ye sab phul hum apne aap kar lenge. Aap budget bata dijiye kitna rupaya kharch karna hai. (We will manage this purchasing of flower garlands on our own. Please tell us what your budget is.) Prabhupāda: Nahi, ye mala kitna ka hai? (No, what is the price of this garland?) Bhagatjī: Prabhupāda, ye to bahut sasti hai, ye mala to. (Prabhupāda, this garland is very cheap.) Prabhupāda: Bolo na. (Anyways, you tell me.) *Bhagatjī: Zyada*-zyada ek taka ki mala, pachas paise ki mala hai. (At the most, it will cost 1 rupee or 50 paise.) Prabhupāda: Pachas paisa? (Fifty paisa.) I don't think it is problem . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your idea? (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) . . . the CID is going to our Life Members and harassing them. Akṣayānanda: "Why are you with them? How much are they paying you?" *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are scared of becoming our members now. Even in Chandigarh, Caitya*-guru told me your books were on display in one Life Member's stores—he has two stores—and CID went to him and said: "Why are you displaying these books? What's your connection? Why're you helping Hare Kṛṣṇa?" Prabhupāda: So selling books is illegal? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but they are just suspecting, they're so suspicious. Prabhupāda: What is that suspicious? We have got books. We are selling. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They . . . you know, because of those . . . now we can defeat them, because of that meeting with Defense Minister. . . . (indistinct) . . . but point is . . . Prabhupāda: Book sell karna ye koi crime hai kya? (Is book selling a crime?) Bhagatjī: Ha sab, ye koi crime nahi hai. (Yes, this is not at all a crime.) Prabhupāda: Ek admi humse kitab le . . . (If someone is taking a book from us . . .) Akṣayānanda: They just harass us. They don't do any action. They just keep bothering us. Indian man: Two CID inspectors came to my house. And they said they have got so many things in their basements. So I told, "You have come without informing me, and I was not informed them. So please come to me one day and decide what is it. You come back. You come with me." I took and I showed . . . Prabhupāda: Kya bola? (What did you say?) Indian man: Sir, I showed everything. Prabhupāda: Wo hum log ke against me bada . . . (They are creating a big challenge for us . . .) Indian man: (indistinct Hindi) . . . "You want to help me to go to materialism? . . . (indistinct) . . . they are not CIDs, they're not even anything. They are simply devotees. They have come from foreign country and they are . . ." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, the living is simple, then they will see, yes, that's simple . . . Prabhupāda: And where is the car you have purchased? Akṣayānanda: It's in Indore now. Indian man: Indian car. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Akṣayānanda: Madhya Pradesh. I put one brahmacārī in charge of it. Prabhupāda: They are using? Akṣayānanda: Yes, very well. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're preaching. Akṣayānanda: Very good boys looking after. Indian man: Dono chiz bahut labh ki hai saheb. Motorcycle hai court jane ke liye, bahar ke cooks lane ke liye, kisi ko bulane ke liye . . . (Both the things are very useful. The motorcycle is used for going to court, to bring cooks from the outside, call someone . . .) Prabhupāda: Ye thik hai. (That's alright.) Akṣayānanda: It's a very good car, Prabhupāda. Jaya . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Utsah hona chahiye. Hum log . . . ye to ek hi din me success nahi bana. Bada dhairya . . . ek dedh baras rasta rasta me ghuma aur wo visa department renew karte, (There has to be enthusiasm. We did not become successful in one day. Lots of patience . . . for one and a half years I had to roam around in the streets and the visa department would renew,) ten dollars. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Canada you had problem. I remember when you came to Montreal in '68. Prabhupāda: Oh, you did not know. Canada, I had very little problem. US, it was always problem. Rather, Canada helped me. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Immigration you got. Prabhupāda: Canada, I immediately I got immigration in Canada. Then I got some standing, that "Never mind, I have got now immigration in Canada. It will be easier from Canada to go to USA." Then again I tried for USA. And it was obtained within three months, and spending only within hundred dollars. And there, in America, they were spending each time $150, the lawyer was taking. He was phoning, "Will you please send $150 for this expense?" And how many times he has taken I do not know. They were paying. Rāyarāma was at that time chief man. He immediately . . . this was going on. Then when I came to Canada . . . first of all, I made my position secure that, "Let me have Canadian immigration." So Canadian immigration I got very soon. I think within two months. Then I applied for USA immigration. So US immigration I got within three months. And I paid, I think, within hundred dollars. So . . . you know. When I came to Montreal? Harikeśa: Very easy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You went for the interview with the US Consulate in Montreal before you got your green card for America. Prabhupāda: No, no. In Montreal went . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you came from Vancouver . . . from Seattle. Harikeśa: You came from Vancouver. You had an interview with one gentleman. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: With Shasti*-mani. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there was hard struggle. It is not that so easy for . . . in 1965 to '66, 66, 67, regular hard struggle. Haṁsadūta: Yes, I know that's a crisis. *Prabhupāda: You know that. Hard struggle. So Kṛṣṇa gave us some facilities. Now we have got some framework. Do it very cautiously. Unnecessarily exhausting what we . . . sato vṛtteḥ sādhu*-saṅge . That is Rūpa Gosvāmī's line. We should be very honest and live with sādhu , those who are devotees. Tāṅdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās . First of all our mission should be how to serve the Gosvāmīs. You cannot act independently. Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . *That should be our prayer. "When Rūpa Gosvāmī, who has established the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when I shall get shelter of his lotus feet?" And that is . . . Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura prays, tāṅdera caraṇa*-sebi . Tāṅdera means the six Gosvāmīs . Ei chay gosāi yāṅr tāṅr mui dās . "I'm servant of that person who is engaged in the service of the six Gosvāmīs." And we pray to our Guru Mahārāja, rūpānuga-viruddhāpasiddhānta-dhvānta-hāriṇe . Anyone who is going against the decision of Rūpa Gosvāmī, reject him. Rūpānuga-viruddhāpasiddhānta-dhvānta . This is our process. Ei chay gosāi yāṅr . *Who will understand Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's loving affairs unless one has gone really through the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī? Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa loving affairs is not so easy. Rādhā-kuṇḍa is not so easy that by force I go to Rādhā-kuṇḍa, I become a candidate. *Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is hankering, "When I shall understand about Rādhā*-kuṇḍa, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's prema ?" Such liberated great devotees, ācāryas , they are hankering. Rūpa-raghunātha-pade hoibe ākuti , kabe hāma bujhabo . "When I shall understand?" And they have understood immediately everything. Sab janta Lawrence. (The all-knowing Mr. Lawrence.) That is solved. Not so easy. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us the facility. *That is the special verse. It is not very easy thing. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Don't take things very easily. Things are very serious. Therefore we have to go step by step. That is, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, tāṅdera saṅge . Aim should be how to serve Rūpa*-Raghunātha, Rūpa-Raghunātha. And bhakta-sane bās , pure devotee, to stay with pure devotee who has no other intention. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). This is the process. So do it carefully. That's all. Devotees: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) In the morning we shall go to take my milk from the booth. I'll go early so that I may take the first. Then come back, then take my bath early in the morning. I did not take hot water. Cold water. Even in severe winter. Hmm, then? *Harikeśa: And one boy called Rādhā*-Dāmodara dāsa from New . . . did I mention this, or . . . (break) (end) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . no, that is wrong . . . (indistinct) . . . sannyāsī should go on preaching, preaching, preaching, preaching. Practically, I was sitting here in Vṛndāvana, in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple. So at the age of seventy years, nobody goes out. At least from Vṛndāvana nobody goes at the age of seventy years. But Kṛṣṇa asked me. I thought that "I must go. Guru Mahārāja wanted it, Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . let me try." So if I had not gone, then this institution would not have developed. So this is practical. Mahataḥ nirvicaraṇam . Mahātmā , they must move. So when there is absolute necessity they may stay. Otherwise, they must move. Move on, move on, move on, move on, move on. No staying. That is principle. No staying. I am this old age, I cannot move . . . my . . . I . . . so many . . . still I am traveling all over the world. I am simply interested that whatever I have done, it may not be vanquished in my absence. Let me go and encourage them. Otherwise, I have no capacity to move now. But still I am moving, only for this purpose. Girinaṁ gṛhna-cetasam . So a sannyāsī must move. A sannyāsī must not stay anywhere more than three days. That is the principle. So he was moving, but his moving is creating disturbances here. Therefore I have stopped. And besides that, a temple is nirguṇa . A sannyāsī is forbidden to stay anywhere else, but in a temple he can stay for more than three days, provided there is business. Otherwise, there is no necessity. So this is the exclusion. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That solves all the problems. *Prabhupāda: No, solves or not solves, we shall see later on. But this is the principle. This is the principle. Solution . . . if we do not become very simple servant of Kṛṣṇa, problems will increase. It will never be solved. If you have got any other desire than to serve Kṛṣṇa, then the problems will increase. It will never decrease. Therefore bhakti begins, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). No other purpose than to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is only purpose. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). So our only business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa in His original status as Kṛṣṇa, and in His other status as Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and in both ways, He's insisting to preach. That is a very important business. Neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu nor Kṛṣṇa has recommended that you become a great devotee and sit down in a place and talk big, big words and simply eat and sleep. Kṛṣṇa has never said. That is not Kṛṣṇa's, neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu's business. That is not required. Boro boro badorer boro boro pet, lanka dingate matha kore het. (Big big monkey, big big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy.) "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." There are very many big, big bellies in Vṛndāvana, but if they're asked to preach Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission all over the world—melancholy. Melancholy. Big, big monkey, big, big belly. So you have taken a very great mission that world preaching. That is very, very nice decision. So you have got buses and you have got capacity. You do this. And one in Germany, one in India, come and go, come and go. What do you think? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Then I want to do that, but there are some problems which I'm experiencing. Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: Well, for instance, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa has the habit of deporting my men to different centers, even against their will. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't have that habit. Haṁsadūta: Then the men . . . I explained the other night . . . Prabhupāda: Let him explain, don't . . . Haṁsadūta: When we come to a center, naturally there are certain men who want to go traveling. Not all men want to go traveling, but there are definitely some who want to go traveling. And if they come to me, what should I do? Tell them, "No, I'm sorry"? Prabhupāda: No, no, traveling, if somebody wants to travel, what he is? First of all you must know. A brahmacārī , a sannyāsī , they are meant for preaching. Not gṛhasthas . Haṁsadūta: No, not gṛhasthas . I'm not taking any gṛhasthas . Prabhupāda: So if a brahmacārī , gṛhastha , yes, if he wants to travel, so there is no objection. Haṁsadūta: But what is happening is that, for instance, someone will join me, then Gopāla will catch up with him and send the man to Delhi or to Hyderabad. The man will run away and come back again, and again he will be forced to go away. This is what I object to. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, this is wrong. I'll tell you what the facts are. In every temple there are certain key positions for some devotee. In no temple we are trying to keep more men than necessary. Sometimes they come and he preaches to them and he gives them money. If he is the temple president . . . like in Bombay Haṁsadūta came, he had a fight with Girirāja. Girirāja was ready to write such a strong letter to you. He gave money to few devotees . . . Prabhupāda: The temple establishment, that has to be maintained. Haṁsadūta: That I understand. Prabhupāda, I understand that. Prabhupāda: So why, why the . . .? Besides that, if you want to take someone or if anyone is willing to go with you, the president of the local temple, he should be requested. Or the man who wants to go, that "I want to go with him," so if the president thinks that he can be spared, then he can go. But if he thinks that his presence is necessary, why he should go? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is one of the GBC resolutions. No devotee can go without the temple president's permission. Haṁsadūta: I understand . . . Prabhupāda: I cannot hear two. Let him . . . when I ask him . . . Haṁsadūta: In this particular instance, and practically always, I do that. But Girirāja was so unreasonable about the matter that the boy actually ran away. Prabhupāda: No, no, that, that, there are so many people . . . if you do not satisfy his senses, everyone is free to run away. That you cannot check. You cannot say, accuse somebody or somebody. Because here everyone is giving voluntary service. Nobody is servant. So if he doesn't like something, at any moment he can go away. At any moment. Just like yesterday the Śāstrī came. So he went away. And somebody, they are coming, going. So you cannot check them, because they are not our paid servants. If they are very kind that they have come here, cooperating with us. But still there is some decency, if one is engaged in some work, all of a sudden he should go away, all of a sudden . . . that is not very good. That is not very good. Decently that, "I used to go, and now in preaching work, so there will be no difficulty," this is the arrangement. Something must be done. All of a sudden, if somebody goes, that isn't very good. Tamāla also, if he did so, that is not good. Because I want some men, I cannot kidnap from any place. That is not good. We must see that the management is going on, the management may not suffer. But the president should allow to go if there is extra men. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Another point in this connection, Prabhupāda, the men who come with me, they don't stay with me forever. They will stay a few months some of them, and then they go. In this way . . . Prabhupāda: Then that is the habit . . . Haṁsadūta: For instance, in this temple, there are so many men which are on our party who are . . . Prabhupāda: So many men. We don't want so many men. Now we are going to minimize. We don't want so many men. That if . . . now we have to estimate how many men absolutely required. So many men we shall keep. Others, they must go to the preaching. They must go to the preaching. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can all go on the buses, the extra men. Prabhupāda: No, they should be distributed. They may go to other centers. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hyderabad needs men. *Prabhupāda: Here, unnecessarily increasing men and increasing expenditure, twenty thousand, twenty*-five thousand, thirty thousand. Why? Unnecessary. Only minimum men should be kept who are actually useful. There is no need of keeping extra men. What is that? Harikeśa: When you originally were speaking about Vṛndāvana, you mentioned that Vṛndāvana would be a place for those people who have become a little disturbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or burned out, we call it, from so much activity, that he comes here and gets rejuvenated here. Is that still . . . *Prabhupāda: That is a fact, but provided he is devotee. If he's not a devotee then he will go away, here and there, here and there. That is the habit. And a devotee is satisfied anywhere. A devotee is not that, "I'll go to Vṛndāvana, then I'll be satisfied." Nārāyaṇa*-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). I did not go to your country taking Vṛndāvana with me. I had to stay in places where in the refrigerator there is meat. And I was cooking. When I opened it I saw, "Here is meat. All right, what can be done? Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. Akṣayānanda: But actually you did take Vṛndāvana with you. Prabhupāda: So if I would have stuck to Vṛndāvana, "No, no, I cannot go anywhere, leaving Vṛndāvana . . ." No, we can go to hell if there is Kṛṣṇa's service. Harikeśa: So is there some time that maybe somebody could stay here when he comes in that frame of consciousness? Prabhupāda: No, no, it is . . . not that. It should be now restricted. Not that anyone comes and whimsically goes away. This should be restricted. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These devotees just create a disturbance, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They don't want to be engaged, and everybody copies them and the whole atmosphere gets . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Akṣayānanda: A lot of devotees think . . . they come here . . . "Therefore work is not necessary. Simply chanting and being in Vṛndāvana is nice." That's wrong. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Chanting, but there is expenditure. Who will collect this twenty*-five thousand? It is increasing. Akṣayānanda: We have one kitchen, as you said . . . *Prabhupāda: I can maintain them, provided they are actually serious about making progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not that some lazy fellow will come, and because he has come to Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa*-candra has become very much obliged to him. Kṛṣṇa-candra had no other friend. He has come from somebody. That mentality should be curtailed. Harikeśa: What if he comes with money to pay for himself. Prabhupāda: Is there a guesthouse? Stay. There is no harm. There is guesthouse, he can pay and stay. But here we shall keep only minimum number of men without whom we cannot make . . . manage it. That's all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, how it is possible? Who will bring twenty*-five thousand per month? I'm surprised. Twenty-five . . . Pacchis hazar. (Twenty-five thousand.) Akṣayānanda: It's much more. Sometimes thirty. *Prabhupāda: So this must be stopped immediately. We cannot pay more than five thousand. You stop. We cannot pay. Ye hona chahiye. Ye hona chahiye. Ye kya adda*-khana hai kya? (This has to be ensured. This must be ensured. Is this a place for having picnics?) My Guru Mahārāja used to say, Khawa-dawar adda-khana. (Eating and drinking club) "Joint mess." This is not possible, that we have to maintain a big bundle of burden. What is this? Akṣayānanda: But still, we have to welcome anyone who comes. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-five thousand, thirty thousand per month? What is this? Where is that temple in Vṛndāvana who is spending twenty-five thousand, thirty thousand? Can you say any temple? Bhagatjī: Not more than five thousand. Prabhupāda: That's it. So we cannot pay more than five thousand. Akṣayānanda: For eating? Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Then clothing is more? Clothing is more? Maintenance? Prabhupāda: No, everything. Hundred rupees per head. You do not require to collect. I shall pay five thousand. Harikeśa: Then there should be a budget here. Prabhupāda: Budget is there. Hundred rupees per head. Fifty men if you keep, it is five thousand. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can keep less. We don't want fifty. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. It will be less. But I'm prepared to pay you five thousand rupees for fifty men. Not more than that. That I can pay. You do not require to collect. You sit down, but work hard here. Not that eating, sleeping. No. That cannot be. That cannot be done. They must be engaged twenty*-four hours. That is wanted. It is not a lazy, a free hotel. Anyone lives, he must be engaged twenty-four hours. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). If he has no work, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa here. That should be done. *Akṣayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We have the twenty*-four hour kīrtana. I've requested everyone who comes to do at least one hour per day. Prabhupāda: There is no question. This is the condition. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I've made it a rule. *Prabhupāda: If you agree, then stay here. Otherwise, you go to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. Akṣayānanda: Also visiting devotees should do that too. Anyone who comes here should do that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone. Prabhupāda: You must make a rule. Akṣayānanda: At least one hour in the temple. Prabhupāda: Why one hour? Four hours. Four hours. Four times. Morning, evening, night, morning again. Akṣayānanda: Already the rule is made . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, already rules are . . . just like to continue kīrtana there must be four batches. Akṣayānanda: Yes, four men I have . . . Prabhupāda: Four batches. That means six hours, four. Three hours. Three hours, not four hours. So one batch four hours. From morning six to nine. Another batch from nine to twelve. Another batch twelve to three. Another batch three to six. Again the morning batch six to . . . *Akṣayānanda: Eight different batches, that makes a total of thirty*-two. *Prabhupāda: That's all. Not . . . why thirty*-two? Twice one batch. One batch attending once in the morning, once in the evening. *Bhagatjī: Sixteen. Solah admi. Char*-char admi ek batch me. Char batch banaye apne. Solah ho gaye. (Sixteen men. Four men will be there in one batch. You made four batches. So the total becomes sixteen.) Prabhupāda: So then if there is fifty men, we cannot spare sixteen men? Akṣayānanda: Very nice. Prabhupāda: Everything is nice. Only to be managed. Akṣayānanda: Yes, it has to be done. Prabhupāda: Only to be managed. So I am prepared, I'll pay you. Even if you have no money I'll pay you five thousand. Keep fifty men. Akṣayānanda: I don't think it's necessary for you to pay. Prabhupāda: So if necessary, I'm prepared. That's all right. Akṣayānanda: No, it's not necessary. Prabhupāda: Then thank you. That is another thing. But fifty men you can keep. Fifty men you can keep. And there is collection in the box. There is collection by prasādam, so many other things. Bhagatjī: And the altars. *Prabhupāda: So that should be engaged fully in Deity worship. Not extravagant. That I shall see. I shall remain here, how things are going on. I shall manage myself. I shall see how things are going on. So anyway, fifty men, five thousand. No more twenty*-five thousand. Forget. No more twenty-five. Harikeśa: That's three rupees a day. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Three point thirty*-three. Haṁsadūta: If it's three rupees, thirty paisa a day for eating, soap and toothpaste . . . *Prabhupāda: No soap. Take this Rādhā*-kuṇḍa's . . . why soap? You are so devotee of Rādhā-kuṇḍa, why you require soap? This is nonsense. You take earth from the Rādhā-kuṇḍa or Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana-dhūli. Why you require soap? Bhagatjī: Pundrah saal ho gaye, maine aj tak sabun nahi lagaya. (Fifteen years have passed but I have never used soap until today.) *Prabhupāda: Radha*-kunda wo jane wala hai aur sabun! Hum bol raha hai jo Radha-kund jane wala aur chahiye sabun! Lijiye. Ye bevakuf Radha-kund me jane wala hai. Ye narak-kund me jane wala hai. Jo narak-kund jata hai uske liye sabun zarurat hai. Radha-kund jane wala ko sabun kya zarurat . . . (indistinct) . . . (He is going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa but he requires soap. My point is that he needs soap for going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa? Just see. This fool is planning to visit Rādhā-kuṇḍa. He will go to hell-kuṇḍa. Those who go to hell-kuṇḍa require soap for bathing. What is the use of soap for someone going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa . . . (indistinct) . . .) Nim datun ? I was doing nim datun until the teeth fell down. You will know that I was collecting nim . But now it is impossible. That also I have manufactured my own toothpaste. I purchase only the brush, and I made my toothpaste at home. I never used any toothpaste. Even in my young days, I never used. You have seen it practically. Not only that now I have become sannyāsī . When I was gṛhastha I never used. When I was gṛhastha I was using that nim datun regularly. Akṣayānanda: So we'll do, definitely. Prabhupāda: And I can give you the paste. Akṣayānanda: The recipe. Prabhupāda: So if you cannot use nim datun, you can use this paste. Very simple. Bhagatji: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kyu, batayenge kyu? Batayenge nahi. Wo humara secret hai. (laughter) So ye aisa karo ki bas ab ye sab . . . aur ye sab jo formula hai, jo manage kar sakega wo manager. (Why should I tell you? I am not going to tell you. It is my secret. (laughter) So do this then everything . . . and all these formulas, one who successfully executes them is a real manager.) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ab ho jayega . . . thik hai. Zarur. Ab ho jayega. Abhi hum log devotee kam kar lenge to ye sab . . . bahar ka koi rehne nahi denge kyuki bahar ka bahut log ate hai, kaam nahi karte. Ab ho jayega. (Now it will be done. Definitely. It will be done. We will now reduce the number of devotee . . . we will not let any outsider stay in the āśrama because then there are too many people staying here without doing any work.) Prabhupāda: Bahar ka kaun ata hai? (Who are these outsiders?) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotee log ate hai, bahar ke visitors aur zyada kaam nahi karte. Unko bolenge chanting karna hai, kaam karna hai nahi to guest house me raho. Aisa karenge. Brahmachari ashram me jisko bhi rehne ka . . . (Devotees are there as well as other visitors who stay in the āśrama without doing any work. We will tell them to chant daily and render some service or else shift to the guest house. We will implement this. Whoever wants to stay in the brahmacārī āśrama should . . .) Prabhupāda: Bahar ka kaun ata hai? (Who are these outsiders?) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotees, then visiting . . . *Akṣayānanda: One problem is that these devotees who are not serious, we say they cannot stay here. Yet, because they are still attracted to Vṛndāvana, many times they go and find a place outside the temple in Vṛndāvana, and they make a bad example. This problem we cannot solve. Or they go to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa and live. We say: "You cannot stay here because you won't help in some way." Therefore they . . . Prabhupāda: No, cannot stay . . . you can allow three days free. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Three days. Okay. Prabhupāda: You can receive guest for three days. Not permanently. And they can . . . that is very reasonable. If they have come, spending so much to Vṛndāvana, they cannot pay? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They usually have money. Everyone who comes from America, Europe, has some money. Prabhupāda: Then? What is the difficulty? What is the difficulty if they have got money? Bhagatjī: See the shop here. See all the shop, whether they have got money or not. You have opened a canteen here, and you can note from there who has got money. Prabhupāda: No, money they have got. There is no doubt. They are not coming from poor country, either poor. No, we are welcoming, provided he is reasonable. Simply to exploit, that is not good. That is not good. What do you think? In our Indian system, if somebody goes to a sādhu's āśrama , especially gṛhastha , immediately he pays fifty rupees, hundred rupees. He'll not stay more than three days, four days. But he knows, "The sādhu , wherefrom he'll bring money? Take." They are paying without staying. Just like yesterday this man came, and you have seen so many people come. In your country also it is done. That is up to the man's conscience, that "I have come here, so I require to stay. Pay something." But not that . . . that should be properly expended. So anything can be done very nicely provided there is good management. I do not see any difficulty. Karo sab. (Do everything properly.) I am present here. If there is any difficulty, ask me. I shall advise. Bhagatjī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Nahi, wo . . . ye to zarur hona chahiye . . . (No, at least this must be ensured that . . .) Per head hundred rupees is sufficient. Not more than that. Even . . . how many devotees are here now? Akṣayānanda: We have sixty. About sixty. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: More than that. *Akṣayānanda: Sixty, sixty*-three. There are many women over there. Usually there's about sixty. Normally there has been about . . . Prabhupāda: Up to fifty I take charge. I shall pay hundred rupees per head. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't need more than fifty, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because Hyderabad needs devotees. Prabhupāda: If there are more, they can go to other centers. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now we have the farm in Hyderabad. Mahāṁsa's asking for men for the farm, for the temple. They can give . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got the biggest farm. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Six*-hundred-acre farm. Prabhupāda: As we have organized New Vrindavan farm and Philadelphia farm, so the farm was also to be organized by you. That was the contemplation. So six hundred acres of land. Very nice land. Very nice land. Six hundreds, and it is not with . . . (indistinct) . . . like Vṛndāvana, but very fertile land. Harikeśa: It can produce enough food to feed the whole society. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhagatjī: Irrigation system? Prabhupāda: Irrigation? Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda? Do you want me to take care of that scheme still? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That would be best. Prabhupāda: Why not? Haṁsadūta: The thing is, the money that I had put aside for that farm I gave to Mahāṁsa, so he should give it back. Prabhupāda: You should be very much encouraged. Haṁsadūta: No, the money that I put aside to start that farm, to buy some irrigation equipment and so forth—initial investment—I gave it to Mahāṁsa on your order, one lakh of rupees. Prabhupāda: One lakh ? Haṁsadūta: I gave him one lakh . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is for construction, and he's going to give it back. Prabhupāda: No, that is for construction. That is not for the farm. Harikeśa: No, no, that money, I intended to use for the farm. But it took so long to get that farm. So when . . . you said that he should pay it back. Prabhupāda: No, that can be . . . that I guaranteed. That I guaranteed one lakh, that if he does not pay, I shall do it. That guarantee still. Haṁsadūta: Should I develop that scheme there? Prabhupāda: Yes, let us have the farm first of all. I do not know what is the position now. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's coming soon, Mahāṁsa said. So he can develop the farm. *Prabhupāda: So your main business should be mahad*-vicalanaṁ . Calanaṁ vicalanam . Haṁsadūta: It's just that in this one particular problem it would be better, that's all. He has already sent them away. He has already sent a number of men away. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? And they are all the temple devotees. What I'm saying is don't rob men from these temples have to be supported. They're taking away men from the temples, and the temples . . . *Haṁsadūta: I don't want to make a fuss, but right now there are six or seven first*-class men who are working in your temple who are on this party. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Take them all, but still the temple will go on. Prabhupāda: He can take them. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Take them out. Haṁsadūta: That's what I'm afraid, that he's going to . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Your men you take. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I am only requesting you to return the temple devotees which you have stolen. That's all. I don't want men from this party. We will manage it. Just return the temple devotees. Haṁsadūta: There are other men who are . . . (indistinct talking back and forth to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa) Prabhupāda: Yesterday I told him that temple painting is going on . . . who is painting? I never saw. *Bhagatjī: Nau baje se panch baje tak . . . (indistinct) . . . aat ghante . . . (indistinct) . . . nau baje shuru karte hai, wo roti*-woti khake ate hai aur panch baje tak karte hai. (From 9 am to 5 pm . . . (indistinct) . . . 8 hours . . . (indistinct) . . . they take a heavy meal before coming here and start work at 9 am. Then they work till 5 pm.) Prabhupāda: Upar me kaise karte hai? (How are they painting on the top?) Bhagatjī: Upar me tay kar liya, abhi niche ka aap a gaye hai . . . (That we have managed. Now you have come regarding the ground floor . . .) Prabhupāda: Niche kaha kar rahe hai? (Where are they painting on the ground floor?) Bhagatjī: Uss taraf. (On that side.) Prabhupāda: Haa? Uss taraf? (What? On that side?) Bhagatjī: Uss taraf . . . (There . . .) Prabhupāda: Backside me kyu? (Why on the backside?) Bhagatjī: Jaha prasad lete hai . . . (Where we take prasadam . . .) Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.) Akṣayānanda: So we should have one kitchen only. One kitchen? As we had discussed last night. Now we have a Deity kitchen and a devotee kitchen. We also have a guesthouse kitchen. Prabhupāda: Why three? (indistinct comments by Bhagatjī) Akṣayānanda: So the devotee kitchen and Deity kitchen could be made into one. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's decided. Akṣayānanda: Yes. So I'll give you a list of the preparations we'll offer, for your approval. It means we'll be offering less to the Deity. Prabhupāda: What is difficulty? Bhagatjī: . . . un logo ka kharcha . . . (indistinct) . . . garland, sab iska kam se kam solah sau rupaya mahine ka kharcha hai . . . (indistinct) . . . pehle to do hazar tha. Maine unko competition karke panch sau rupaye less karke . . . (their expenditure . . . (indistinct) . . . minimum monthly expenditure for garlands is sixteen hundred rupees . . . (indistinct) . . . it was two thousand initially but I negotiated with them and reduced it by five hundred rupees . . .) Prabhupāda: Solah sau rupaya phool! (Flowers are worth sixteen hundred rupees!) Bhagatjī: Phool, mala, sab itna mahine ka . . . (Flowers, garlands, all together for one month . . .) Prabhupāda: Ye to murkhta hai. Nahi, ye jo pachas rupaya phool . . . ye jo pachas rupaya ka phool . . . (indistinct) . . . deta hai. (This is ridiculous. No, these daily flowers are worth fifty rupees . . . (indistinct) . . . they are giving.) Bhagatjī: . . . me deta hai. Phool lagte hai phool. (. . . they are giving. This many flowers are always required.) *Prabhupāda: Deta hai to Bhagavan ke liye phool liya jaye par ye humara sir me itna phool sajane ka kya zarurat hai. Bhagavan ke liye bas panch saat mala le . . . (Okay, let them purchase for the Deities but why decorate me with so many flowers? For the Deities, you can purchase five to seven garlands . . .) How many Deities are there? Guru*-Gaurāṅga, four; *Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma, two; six, and . . . Akṣayānanda: Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā and the gopīs. Prabhupāda: Ten. So . . . *Akṣayānanda: Chote Radha*-Krishna humare. (Our small Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.) *Prabhupāda: Char Radha*-Krishna, do Krishna-Balarama aur char Guru-Gauranga. (Four Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, two Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma and four Guru-Gaurāṅga.) *Akṣayānanda: And small Deity of Gaura*-Nitāi, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Small deities are small . . . to garland kitna leta hai? (. . . so how much do they take for garlands?) Bhagatjī: Garland ka to . . . mala ke to har ek ka alag alag daam hai. Ek rupaye ki to gulab ki mala . . . (indistinct) . . . ek pichattar paise ki hai, tulsi mala ati hai wo sawa rupaye ki lagti hai. (Each garland has a different price. Rose garland is 1 rupee . . . (indistinct) . . . one is 75 paisa, tulsi garland is 1 rupee and 15 paisa.) Prabhupāda: Nahi, tulsi bhi nahi chahiye, gulab bhi nahi chahiye, aisi chahiye. (No, we neither need a rose garland nor a tulsi garland. This one is good enough.) Bhagatjī: . . . bahut sasti rahegi tab (. . . it will be very cheap then . . .) Prabhupāda: Ha, ek dum sahi . . . (Yes, perfectly fine . . .) Bhagatjī: (laughter) Bhagavan ke liye sugandhit phulo ki mala, malati ki, gulab ki . . . (For the Lord, we can take some fragrant flower garlands like jasmine, rose . . .) Prabhupāda: Kabhi kabhi lena, rozana nahi. (On some days you may take but not daily.) Bhagatjī: Bazar me ye sab phul hum apne aap kar lenge. Aap budget bata dijiye kitna rupaya kharch karna hai. (We will manage this purchasing of flower garlands on our own. Please tell us what your budget is.) Prabhupāda: Nahi, ye mala kitna ka hai? (No, what is the price of this garland?) Bhagatjī: Prabhupāda, ye to bahut sasti hai, ye mala to. (Prabhupāda, this garland is very cheap.) Prabhupāda: Bolo na. (Anyways, you tell me.) *Bhagatjī: Zyada*-zyada ek taka ki mala, pachas paise ki mala hai. (At the most, it will cost 1 rupee or 50 paise.) Prabhupāda: Pachas paisa? (Fifty paisa.) I don't think it is problem . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your idea? (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) . . . the CID is going to our Life Members and harassing them. Akṣayānanda: "Why are you with them? How much are they paying you?" *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are scared of becoming our members now. Even in Chandigarh, Caitya*-guru told me your books were on display in one Life Member's stores—he has two stores—and CID went to him and said: "Why are you displaying these books? What's your connection? Why're you helping Hare Kṛṣṇa?" Prabhupāda: So selling books is illegal? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but they are just suspecting, they're so suspicious. Prabhupāda: What is that suspicious? We have got books. We are selling. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They . . . you know, because of those . . . now we can defeat them, because of that meeting with Defense Minister. . . . (indistinct) . . . but point is . . . Prabhupāda: Book sell karna ye koi crime hai kya? (Is book selling a crime?) Bhagatjī: Ha sab, ye koi crime nahi hai. (Yes, this is not at all a crime.) Prabhupāda: Ek admi humse kitab le . . . (If someone is taking a book from us . . .) Akṣayānanda: They just harass us. They don't do any action. They just keep bothering us. Indian man: Two CID inspectors came to my house. And they said they have got so many things in their basements. So I told, "You have come without informing me, and I was not informed them. So please come to me one day and decide what is it. You come back. You come with me." I took and I showed . . . Prabhupāda: Kya bola? (What did you say?) Indian man: Sir, I showed everything. Prabhupāda: Wo hum log ke against me bada . . . (They are creating a big challenge for us . . .) Indian man: (indistinct Hindi) . . . "You want to help me to go to materialism? . . . (indistinct) . . . they are not CIDs, they're not even anything. They are simply devotees. They have come from foreign country and they are . . ." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, the living is simple, then they will see, yes, that's simple . . . Prabhupāda: And where is the car you have purchased? Akṣayānanda: It's in Indore now. Indian man: Indian car. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Akṣayānanda: Madhya Pradesh. I put one brahmacārī in charge of it. Prabhupāda: They are using? Akṣayānanda: Yes, very well. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're preaching. Akṣayānanda: Very good boys looking after. Indian man: Dono chiz bahut labh ki hai saheb. Motorcycle hai court jane ke liye, bahar ke cooks lane ke liye, kisi ko bulane ke liye . . . (Both the things are very useful. The motorcycle is used for going to court, to bring cooks from the outside, call someone . . .) Prabhupāda: Ye thik hai. (That's alright.) Akṣayānanda: It's a very good car, Prabhupāda. Jaya . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Utsah hona chahiye. Hum log . . . ye to ek hi din me success nahi bana. Bada dhairya . . . ek dedh baras rasta rasta me ghuma aur wo visa department renew karte, (There has to be enthusiasm. We did not become successful in one day. Lots of patience . . . for one and a half years I had to roam around in the streets and the visa department would renew,) ten dollars. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Canada you had problem. I remember when you came to Montreal in '68. Prabhupāda: Oh, you did not know. Canada, I had very little problem. US, it was always problem. Rather, Canada helped me. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Immigration you got. Prabhupāda: Canada, I immediately I got immigration in Canada. Then I got some standing, that "Never mind, I have got now immigration in Canada. It will be easier from Canada to go to USA." Then again I tried for USA. And it was obtained within three months, and spending only within hundred dollars. And there, in America, they were spending each time $150, the lawyer was taking. He was phoning, "Will you please send $150 for this expense?" And how many times he has taken I do not know. They were paying. Rāyarāma was at that time chief man. He immediately . . . this was going on. Then when I came to Canada . . . first of all, I made my position secure that, "Let me have Canadian immigration." So Canadian immigration I got very soon. I think within two months. Then I applied for USA immigration. So US immigration I got within three months. And I paid, I think, within hundred dollars. So . . . you know. When I came to Montreal? Harikeśa: Very easy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You went for the interview with the US Consulate in Montreal before you got your green card for America. Prabhupāda: No, no. In Montreal went . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you came from Vancouver . . . from Seattle. Harikeśa: You came from Vancouver. You had an interview with one gentleman. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: With Shasti*-mani. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there was hard struggle. It is not that so easy for . . . in 1965 to '66, 66, 67, regular hard struggle. Haṁsadūta: Yes, I know that's a crisis. *Prabhupāda: You know that. Hard struggle. So Kṛṣṇa gave us some facilities. Now we have got some framework. Do it very cautiously. Unnecessarily exhausting what we . . . sato vṛtteḥ sādhu*-saṅge . That is Rūpa Gosvāmī's line. We should be very honest and live with sādhu , those who are devotees. Tāṅdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās . First of all our mission should be how to serve the Gosvāmīs. You cannot act independently. Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . *That should be our prayer. "When Rūpa Gosvāmī, who has established the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when I shall get shelter of his lotus feet?" And that is . . . Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura prays, tāṅdera caraṇa*-sebi . Tāṅdera means the six Gosvāmīs . Ei chay gosāi yāṅr tāṅr mui dās . "I'm servant of that person who is engaged in the service of the six Gosvāmīs." And we pray to our Guru Mahārāja, rūpānuga-viruddhāpasiddhānta-dhvānta-hāriṇe . Anyone who is going against the decision of Rūpa Gosvāmī, reject him. Rūpānuga-viruddhāpasiddhānta-dhvānta . This is our process. Ei chay gosāi yāṅr . *Who will understand Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's loving affairs unless one has gone really through the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī? Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa loving affairs is not so easy. Rādhā-kuṇḍa is not so easy that by force I go to Rādhā-kuṇḍa, I become a candidate. *Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is hankering, "When I shall understand about Rādhā*-kuṇḍa, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's prema ?" Such liberated great devotees, ācāryas , they are hankering. Rūpa-raghunātha-pade hoibe ākuti , kabe hāma bujhabo . "When I shall understand?" And they have understood immediately everything. Sab janta Lawrence. (The all-knowing Mr. Lawrence.) That is solved. Not so easy. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us the facility. *That is the special verse. It is not very easy thing. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Don't take things very easily. Things are very serious. Therefore we have to go step by step. That is, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, tāṅdera saṅge . Aim should be how to serve Rūpa*-Raghunātha, Rūpa-Raghunātha. And bhakta-sane bās , pure devotee, to stay with pure devotee who has no other intention. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). This is the process. So do it carefully. That's all. Devotees: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) In the morning we shall go to take my milk from the booth. I'll go early so that I may take the first. Then come back, then take my bath early in the morning. I did not take hot water. Cold water. Even in severe winter. Hmm, then? *Harikeśa: And one boy called Rādhā*-Dāmodara dāsa from New . . . did I mention this, or . . . (break) (end) *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's bhakti*-nitya-siddha is already there. Otherwise it was not possible to become so successful in the foreign countries. They are not fools, accepting something bogus. Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa consciousness has succeeded amongst all kinds of religions. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: It's succeeded amongst all kinds of religions, amongst all kinds of nations. Prabhupāda: Everything. Harikeśa: All kinds of economic systems. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat ( BG 7.7): "There is nothing greater than Me." How anything can exceed Kṛṣṇa? That's all. You present Kṛṣṇa right, then Kṛṣṇa will exceed anything—any department of knowledge, any department of activity. Anything. Supreme, parataram . Para*-taram. Tara is used—superlative. If our men become serious to distribute . . . of course, it is not possible that the whole world will be Kṛṣṇa conscious, but at least they will know that there is such a thing. I may know at least there is diamond. I may not be able to purchase. That everyone can know: there is a very valuable jewel. Even though he has not seen it, still he'll appreciate that there is a very valuable jewel known as diamond. That much will also help. When he has got money, he can purchase it. (break) Because gentleman will come you have to break this wall. What is this nonsense? Akṣayānanda: Yes, actually I didn't want it broken. Prabhupāda: You didn't know, but it is going on. Akṣayānanda: Now they have to finish. Prabhupāda: Any rascal comes, he gives some order. This is the difficulty. Akṣayānanda: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: Any rascal comes, he's a third*-class man, he gives some idea. Akṣayānanda: I'm going to get this work finished today, definitely. Prabhupāda: He has no position; *he is third*-class man. He has given some idea, "Here, you break it." That is the nature. And how long this work will continue? Throughout the whole life? Akṣayānanda: No. I'm going to finish it today. Prabhupāda: You say no, but it is going on. You simply say "No," "Yes," "No," "Very good." That's all. Akṣayānanda: When I go away and I come back and the wall is broken, what can I do? Prabhupāda: Don't go. Akṣayānanda: That's right. Prabhupāda: You don't manufacture idea. Don't allow others to manufacture ideas. Akṣayānanda: Right, right. Prabhupāda: Simply manufacturing idea. Akṣayānanda: I understand. Prabhupāda: In Bombay also they have manufactured idea. One hole, one lift. There is no need, and you have manufactured some idea. Very expert in manufacturing nonsense ideas. Hari-śauri: The thing is how to distinguish between what's a good idea . . . Prabhupāda: You have to take ideas from your guru . Akṣayānanda: From intelligence. *Prabhupāda: Therefore gurum evābhigacchet . Why do you manufacture yourself? Consult the authorities, then do it. That is intelligence. Why do you think that you are very intelligent? That is materialism. The more you remain that, "I am a fool," that is good. And as soon as you become over*-intelligent, then, that's finished. So Europeans, Americans, they are over-intelligent. They have intelligence, over-intelligence. Unnecessarily. They manufacture a machine for shaving: gow-gow-gow-gow-gow-gow . (makes machine sound). (laughter) And they have wasted so much time. So much time. But people like it. Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda, if we don't use soap, the question has come up, how to wash the clothes? How to wash the cloth? If you do not use any soap, the question has come up, how to wash the cloth? By beating only? Sufficient? Prabhupāda: For washing cloth you require soap. But does not . . . you require everything, but because you are spending without any sense . . . so I calculated yesterday the whole thing, Deity worship, Deity pūjā , will require five hundred rupees per month. Akṣayānanda: I had requested for the flowers . . . Viśvambhara said twelve rupees you had decided last night. Prabhupāda: Twelve rupees, thirteen rupees . . . Akṣayānanda: Twelve, thirteen. Actually today, I wanted for today, but the flower man was not able to . . . we could not catch him in time. But from tomorrow it will start, definitely. Prabhupāda: The thing is that one who is cheating you, he will cheat in twelve rupees, also he will cheat in fifty rupees. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: He knows how to cheat you. Akṣayānanda: Yes, they're expert. Prabhupāda: Where do they get flowers? Akṣayānanda: There are two flower men. They come here from Bankebehari. Now Viśvambhara has made two, because they make a competition between each other, and therefore they keep down. But . . . Prabhupāda: Nobody is honest. Akṣayānanda: But still old flowers are coming. Still old flowers are coming. We're getting cheap, but old ones are coming. Brown flowers, old ones are coming. It's just by experience, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where they get flower? Akṣayānanda: Wherefrom? The actual flower men? I don't know. Prabhupāda: In the market the flowers are not sold? Akṣayānanda: I don't know. Viśvambhara said that this was the best. Viśvambhara is very expert. He's supremely expert at catching these cheaters. But even he gets cheated sometimes. Even things go by and he doesn't notice. He's very, very expert. If I ever get to be as expert as him, then maybe something good will happen. But even he is also being cheated sometimes. Prabhupāda: Cheating is one of the qualification of the conditioned soul. Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda, Viśvambhara . . . Prabhupāda: Vipralipsa , vipralipsa . Bhrama , pramada , vipralipsa , karaṇāpāṭava . So cheating is a qualification of the conditioned soul. Everyone is expert in cheating, more or less. That is qualification. People take pride, "Oh, I have cheated. I am so expert that I have cheated." When the lawyers make some agreement between the two lawyers, simply think, "How I can cheat you? How can I cheat you?" That's all. The more one lawyer is expert in cheating, he is big lawyer. Hari-śauri: Yes, because their business is to avoid the law. Akṣayānanda: They are called lawyer, but their business is to break the law. Prabhupāda: Yes. The best cheater is the best lawyer. Akṣayānanda: So that means if we become pure then we can avoid being cheated, because we ourselves will not cheat anymore. Prabhupāda: No, this world is full of cheaters. We have to live with them. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret . You also have to become better cheater. That is wanted. Otherwise, you cannot exist. Akṣayānanda: But we have to cheat for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Do everything for Kṛṣṇa, that is all right. But this world, if you become simple and the whole world is full of cheaters, then you suffer. Akṣayānanda: You lose always. *Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to know and protect yourself from the cheaters. So sometimes we have to become a bigger cheater. This is the world. Vañcaka*-vañcī . Whole world is going on, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, that one is cheater, another is cheated. Hari-śauri: There's a saying in English . . . what is it? "Set a thief to catch a thief." The purport is that you have to think like a thief, then you can catch him, you can know what he's doing. Prabhupāda: Set a fish? Hari-śauri: Set a thief to catch a thief. Prabhupāda: Thief, oh, yes. You can reply him . . . (break) Those who are actually serious to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are welcome. *Akṣayānanda: Pāpī*-tāpī jata chilo . *Prabhupāda: Yes. If he's serious to become free from this material world and go back to home, back to . . . you welcome him. We don't make any discrimination. Ābāla*-vṛddha-vanitā . Bāla means children, vṛddha means old man, and vanitā means woman. They are most helpless. Ābāla-vṛddha-vanitā. Vanitā . Beginning from the child up to the old man, and . . . but coming here, if they plan for sense gratification, that is very dangerous. Come here, stay with us. We shall somehow or other provide him with prasādam and place. But be advanced. And the simple method is recommended: Very simple thing. Yasyāṁ vai śrūyamāṇāyām . Simply hear *Bhāgavatam* . And actually if anyone seriously reads *Bhāgavatam* , he'll become saintly, no doubt about it. Akṣayānanda: Your Bhāgavata . There are no others actually. Prabhupāda: Vyāsadeva, the words of Vyāsadeva, I am simply trying to explain, that's all. Akṣayānanda: No one else is trying. No one else has done it. Prabhupāda: It is due to the blessing of my Guru Mahārāja. He directly told me that "If you get some money, publish some books." I took it seriously, so he's helping me. All our Godbrothers, they didn't take it. Did not know it, neither . . . even they . . . they know it. Because from the very beginning, Guru Mahārāja was serious about publication. He started press and published these books. This Bhāgavata was published by him. And the journal, six journals, he was very much fond of publishing, publication. Very, very. He told me directly that, "If it was possible to get the marbles from this Gauḍīya Maṭha and sell it and convert it into books, I would have done it. Because I know there will be blazing fire in this place." (break) . . . books. Akṣayānanda: Yeah, I know. Prabhupāda: And by Kṛṣṇa's grace, by selling books we are getting. This is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise . . . this Bon Mahārāja is so proud of his institution. He could not do this. He could have done it. For the last forty years. *Akṣayānanda: He does not speak kṛṣṇa*-kathā , Prabhupāda. So five thousand you have estimated for the Deities? Five thousand. For a month you have estimated last night five thousand? Prabhupāda: Five hundred. Akṣayānanda: Five hundred. For all . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For a month? Akṣayānanda: With Viśvambhara you had discussed? Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Then I'll talk to him now. Prabhupāda: Just like we were going to, in the evening . . . don't divert attention. In the evening we have estimated four plates. Each plate, eight purīs. Akṣayānanda: Six plates. *Prabhupāda: Six plates. Six plates, eight purīs , means forty*-eight purīs . Forty-eight purīs , Viśvambhara calculated the atta and ghee . Akṣayānanda: Yes, you already made that estimate. Prabhupāda: Two rupees. Atta and ghee , two rupees. Then other preparation, another two rupees. Akṣayānanda: He'll tell me everything, Prabhupāda. No need to . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, why don't you hear? Akṣayānanda: I'm sorry. Prabhupāda: You are hearing now. Four rupees to prepare all the plates. Four rupees, say five rupees. So five rupees, monthly 150 rupees. So we are offering four times. So 150 rupees four times. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Six hundred rupees. Prabhupāda: Six hundred rupees. So take another four hundred rupees, make one thousand. It should not go more than five hundred to one thousand. You spend it. Harikeśa: But milk, when you cook down milk to make a sweet . . . Prabhupāda: I have taken from six hundred to one thousand. All the maintenance. Akṣayānanda: I will take every item with Viśvambhara, every single item. Prabhupāda: You don't believe me? Akṣayānanda: I can't understand. My intelligence is not great enough to understand it. I believe you, but I have to do it, that's all. Prabhupāda: It cannot go more than one thousand. Akṣayānanda: I can't quite grasp it, Prabhupāda. But you say it can't go above five hundred, so that'll be it. Prabhupāda: No, no. Five hundred, that is rough calculation. But we add another five hundred, if there is any mistake or any error and omission. Therefore I have added another five hundred. Akṣayānanda: That means a thousand. Prabhupāda: Thousand. That is sufficient. Akṣayānanda: Maximum. Prabhupāda: Maximum. And you were speaking 9,000. Akṣayānanda: This is for food. Food only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It is for Deity messing. Akṣayānanda: Deity food only. Yes. Prabhupāda: So I am speaking of the Deity, not for all. For all others, hundred rupees per head, five thousand rupees. Here purī , kachorīs , and other things, all the best things. But general is not for purī , kachorī , and . . . they are general food. We are not going to supply purī , kachorī , halavā to everyone. Akṣayānanda: No, never. Never have. Prabhupāda: Only for the Deity. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Others are just dāl , sabjī , rice, cāpāṭi . Prabhupāda: Everything. Everything calculated. Akṣayānanda: I believe you, Prabhupāda. But to make it practical I want to see every item. The cost, the weight and everything. Prabhupāda: It is already calculated. Akṣayānanda: Then I can do it. Then we can do it. Prabhupāda: It is already calculated. I calculated, not with a fool, with an experienced man. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have one other question regarding . . . we are going to observe very strict policies. Unless somebody is working, he cannot stay in the temple. If some other tourist devotee comes from some other center, he can only stay for three days. But beyond that he should either pay or he should go and preach or do something else. Akṣayānanda: Like some service. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What should we do with . . . like there's some sannyāsīs here, like Yaśodānandana Swami and his party. I hear they're going to stay for the whole month. They're already here since two weeks. They're occupying two rooms, everything. They're going to stay here till the end of the month. Akṣayānanda: Get him to go and preach for Vṛndāvana. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The only reason I'm talking this is because now it's really tight. We can't take . . . they have air*-conditioned room . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, they should go and preach and bring some collection. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're just relaxed, resting for a month. Akṣayānanda: A month is too long, Prabhupāda said. Prabhupāda said three days a sannyāsī should stay, and then he should go and travel. The wheels should be turning. I'll talk to him. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because this just adds up. A ten*-people party staying here for a month . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, they've always come, so there must be some control. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Few men are here from Haṁsadūta's party who eat with us. All this just adds up, then our budget cannot be maintained. Akṣayānanda: I'll preach to him. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Air*-conditioned room. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. They're our men. Harikeśa: Yes. It's required. If anyone's ever done a big preaching program, he cannot . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But one month . . . Akṣayānanda: A month is a long time. Maybe a week. But a month . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Week is sufficient. One month is too much. That is laziness. Akṣayānanda: Residential. Laziness. Prabhupāda: So he was preaching in the South India, so why he came here? There was no resting place? Harikeśa: He came here . . . actually, they're going north soon. They're going to be in Chandigarh when we're in Chandigarh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is six weeks from now. Harikeśa: That's all right. They're also going north and preaching, and he's having a very hard time getting his financial position down. And he has no men. Two, three, four men. He's having . . . Prabhupāda: How he'll return my fifteen thousand? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That Mahāṁsa has taken. Prabhupāda: I do not know Mahāṁsa has taken. He has to return it. Harikeśa: He never got it. And he wanted to join with Haṁsadūta, do some type of . . . (indistinct) . . . he's not in a very easy position right now. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He could become a part of Vṛndāvana and take a team out of Vṛndāvana. Akṣayānanda: I always wanted Vṛndāvana should have one bus. That is to say, if there is not too much endeavor to get one bus. There's so many buses are floating are through the air. Why could Vṛndāvana not have one bus? In that way they can always be just like Kīrtanānanda Swami. There is always saṅkīrtana going and coming, going and coming. And the same people . . . Prabhupāda: Ānanda Swami? Akṣayānanda: Kīrtanānanda, in New Vṛndāvana. All his people, they must go out and do kīrtana and distribute books. They must. Everybody does it. In that way the . . . I'm told this, anyway. In that way the devotees are enlivened, and they don't become restless in the temple. Then the same ones . . . it's our bus, and they will come back to our temple. So we will not lose too many good devotees because they will not be attracted to go away on others'. So if we had one bus . . . Yaśodānandana Mahārāja, I will discuss with him. I already have. I'll just try to discuss it more. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurudāsa Swami is coming to Vṛndāvana with a bus. He said he's going to give it to Vṛndāvana. Akṣayānanda: And there's no need for me to go out. There's so many nice sannyāsīs . So many big preachers and so many buses. So if we just try it. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Īśvara*-candra prabhu has come from Mathurā. (break) Prabhupāda: When you will come to preach something? You take it from me. *Īśvara*-candra: Last one and a half year I'm trying for something in Mathurā, but I'm . . . Prabhupāda: You are trying in your own way. But Kṛṣṇa does not like that program. You can manufacture your something, idea, but Kṛṣṇa will allow or not. I tell you. This is practical. You are a qualified man, foreign educated man, and you have come back for the last one and a half years, still you are in nothing. It is surprising. That means Kṛṣṇa does not want you to do that something. You take it from me. These boys have come because they found, outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness, life is nothing. That's a fact. Therefore they are sticking to this. They knew it very well, that outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness the whole world was vacant, "Nothing for us." That is a fact. Therefore they have got something here. They are not foolish rascals they're sticking for nothing. There is something. It's a fact. So for nothing, "Oh, we have suffered." And come to something, if you want. That's Prāṇava, he is trying for something. He has come also in Vṛndāvana more than one year also. Huh? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Two, three years. Harikeśa: More than that. Three and a half years. *Prabhupāda: And he's trying to do something. The same "something." He was at home, the same woman and same man. And again also here the same woman and man, and trying to do something. But he has no customer. He has only customer how to cheat these Europeans and Americans. Surmā (kohl) merchant. As if surmā is not available in the market. And he advertises "This is my special formula, and this is this, this is this. You take it and give me five hundred rupees and go away." He cannot sell outside. Otherwise, why he's sticking to Vṛndāvana? Thinking "The fools and rascals, the Americans are. I shall introduce." Kyu thik bola? Ye unka kaam chal raha hai. Humara to apna nahi hai je American ko cheat karke . . . (indistinct) . . . banaunga . . . (So, am I correct? This is going on. Our aim is not to cheat the Americans . . . (indistinct) . . .) That this material world has become nothing. You come to something now. Idhar raat me raho, jo kamra . . . (indistinct) . . . wo kamra de denge aur lo Bhagavan ka prasad, daal*-roti mil jayega khana, kaam karo. Kyu lehsun khate ho sab? Kya labh? . . . (Stay here tonight, that room . . . (indistinct) . . . will be provided for you, take the Lord's prasādam , chapati and dāl and work nicely. Why consume onion and garlic? What's the use?) If anyone wants to go to Bhagavān, then he has to make this material world voluntarily nothing. Niṣkiñcanasya . Niṣkiñcana means nothing. You understand, you translate. You know the meaning of niṣkiñcana . Kiñcana means "something," and niḥ means "not." Then nothing. So one who has made this material world as nothing. How it is made? Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Because with this something, as soon as one will stick to this something, he'll suffer. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because he has accepted this rascal situation, asat. Asat means either temporary or bad. Asat . Tum to translate karte ho. Asat ka arth kya hota hai? (You can translate. What's the meaning of asat ?) Temporary or useless. So this material world is . . . temporary, we can know it is. But it is useless, that we do not know. Therefore we struggle. "Let me go. Let me fight, fight, fight, fight." That is māyā . Gadha ko jaise ghas dikhata hai. (Just like they show grass to a donkey.) You know that? A man is sitting on the ass. And his hand just on the front of the gādhā , ass, he's putting some grass. And the gādhā is thinking, "I will eat this grass," so he's going forward. But the grass is also going forward. This is very instructive. The grass is, say, one feet above his head, and the man is sitting on his back. But because this gādhā does not know that "Actually, this man is sitting on my . . . as soon as I go forward, the grass also goes forward." But because he's ass, he does not know. He thinks that, "If I go a little forward I'll get the grass." But he has no knowledge that the arrangement is so made that as you go forward the grass also goes forward. Another example is that meerage. Myrage? There is no water. Harikeśa: Mirage. Prabhupāda: Mirage. There is no water; *it appears there is water. And the animal goes forward and it goes forward, it goes forward. So this material world is like that. Ask anybody, any so*-called successful. Unless he's an ass, nobody will say that this is very comfortable. So best thing is to become niṣkiñcana . Niṣkiñcanasya bhāgavata-bhajana . . . this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. Bhāgavata-bhajana means niṣkiñcana . You make nothing this material world. That is real Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so long I'll make this material world something, then I'll suffer. Best thing is make it . . . just like Draupadī. Draupadī, when she was grabbed in the assembly and Duryodhana and Karṇa wanted to make her naked . . . so generally woman, if you try to make her naked she'll try to save herself. So she was trying to save herself, and when she thought, "There is no way. My husbands are here. They are not helping, and . . . so cloth is being supplied by Kṛṣṇa, but how long I shall?" No, before Kṛṣṇa helping, she was trying to help herself. But when she found that it is not possible, then (s)he did not try to save the cloth. (S)he said: "Kṛṣṇa, save me!" Two arms. You have seen the picture. And then Kṛṣṇa supplied cloth. So it is, "Go on, yes, Duḥśāsana, you go on. You try to make her naked. I'll supply." *So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, that one should, if one is serious about bhagavad*-bhajana , he should take it, whole material world, as nothing. Sometimes I think, "I made nothing this material world, and again retired in Vṛndāvana. Again, Kṛṣṇa, you have given so many things. What is the purpose?" At that time, I remember Rūpa Gosvāmī's instruction, "This is not mine. This is Kṛṣṇa's." Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgya . We are exerting so much energy to construct a temple, but as soon as we become implicated, "Now I have got this big building. Let me live very comfortably," then it is very dangerous. So long we work for Kṛṣṇa, it is Kṛṣṇa's, I am still nothing. And as soon as I take it, "Oh, now I have got very good, comfortable place. Make me again something," (laughs) take that as dangerous. Otherwise, there is no danger. Therefore we have to be engaged always in Kṛṣṇa's service. Not that, "Because we have got this nice building and income also, let us now sit down and eat." Then you'll stop. You shall have to be engaged always. Because our brain is materialistic, as soon as there is little chance of utilizing for sense gratification, mind: "Yes, yes. Do it." Still, we have to do it. *Rūpa Gosvāmī. Hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ . Things which are connected with Kṛṣṇa, you should never think it that it is material. It is spiritual. . . . Samajh me aya hai to ye sab nothing ko choro. Uska . . . (indistinct) . . . nothing jab hai to nothing hi kar do . . . "Ar na re baap!" (. . . if you have really understood, then give up all these things. Since your . . . (indistinct) . . . has ultimately come to nothing then leave that thing for good . . . "Not any more!",) Jagāi-Mādhāi . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him that, "You make this nothing, this sinful activity. Then I accept you." They promised, "Yes." That's all . . . (indistinct) . . . sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyaḥ (BG 18.66)." Kya ambition hai life me? (What is your ambition in life?) What is your ambition? Hmm? What is the ambition? *Īśvara*-candra: Nothing is there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Then again nothing? There must be something. Why you are sticking to that company? There must be some ambition. *Īśvara*-candra: I want to take care of my family what . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: So how you can take care with nothing? If Kṛṣṇa makes you nothing, then how you can take care of your family? Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nārtasya ca . . . (SB 7.9.19). These things I have explained, that we have got so many means against struggle for existence, but that is not final. Tāvat tanu*-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām . If there is no sanction from Kṛṣṇa, you cannot do it. It is impossible. If Kṛṣṇa does not like you to be implicated in that way, that is false, then how can you do it? You are thinking that "I shall take care of my family." But if Kṛṣṇa wants that you cannot take care of your family, then how you'll do it? Can you go against the will of Kṛṣṇa? You can understand at least this, if not very much advanced. You cannot go against the will of Kṛṣṇa. So you have tried for the last one and a half years, you could not improve your material situation. That means you are going against the will of Kṛṣṇa. Take it from me. Kitne bacche hai? (How many children do you have?) *Īśvara*-candra: I have four. Prabhupāda: Four. To jitne bacche idhar hai, usko do roti milta hai, dudh milta hai. Hum log bhi de sakte hai. Usme kya hai? (So all these kids here get milk and chapati daily. We can also provide. Where is the difficulty?) Separate. No more together. Phir panchva baccha ho jayega. (Then the fifth child will be born. Stop this. (Ajkal to government bhi mana karta hai. (Nowadays even the Government is forbidding people from having many children.) *Īśvara*-candra: What can I do? (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). Everything is discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Kṛpaṇa , brāhmaṇa , kṛpaṇa , tṛpyanti neha . He knows that "One bāccā has given me so much trouble." Illicit or legal, . . . jo kuch hoye (. . . whatever is the case.) It is troublesome business. Otherwise, why these Americans and Europeans, they're killing their own child? They don't want to take the botheration. Abhi to India me waha tak pahucha nahi. Aste aste pahuch jayega. Ab to shuru ho gaya, zabardasti. To . . . (In India, things have not deteriorated to such a low level but it won't take long. It has already been started by force.) So it is botheration, there is no doubt about it. The Bhāgavata says, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ . The kṛpaṇa . . . Jo kripana hota hai. Kripana ka artha hota hai . . . (One who is a miser. The meaning of kṛpaṇa is . . .) What is the meaning of kṛpaṇa ? Do you know? Miser. Miser, what is the meaning of miser? *Īśvara*-candra: He's got something but he doesn't want to . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got this something, human form of body, to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Instead of doing that, in spite of possessing this something, I am utilizing it for sense gratification. If you want sense gratification that's all right. Get one child, two child. Why again and again? Therefore śāstra says, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ (SB 7.9.45). Because he's kṛpaṇa , he's never satisfied. He's suffering—again, another child, again, another child. All right, you have got two child, one child, that's all right. Be satisfied. Why again and again? So kṛpaṇa . Kṛpaṇa , he does not know how to utilize this asset of human life. He's wasting the asset in a different way. Kṛpaṇa . One has to become brāhmaṇa . The opposite word of kṛpaṇa is brāhmaṇa. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). That is wanted. So we are giving brāhmaṇa's position. Instead of taking the brāhmaṇa position, if he wants to take again kṛpaṇa position, then what is the use of being initiated? All these great sages, saintly person, who were they? They were all brāhmaṇas . Brāhmaṇa . Śukadeva Gosvāmī is always addressed Brahman. Is it not? This is brāhmaṇa's business. It is not the kṛpaṇa's business. Kṛpaṇa's business means he does not know how to utilize the asset. *So Jab aya hai . . . (When you have come . . .) it is my duty to speak the truth. So now you can do whatever you like . . . give him prasādam . (break) . . . these words, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ . They have been described, it is just like . . . of course, it is very difficult, this itching. We have got practical experience. When there is some itching, we cannot stop it. We cannot stop it. Even if I do not want it, still . . . so it is like itching. Nothing more. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). The tapasya means how to control this itching sensation. This is tapasya . Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). Tapasya means, tapasya begins, now brahmacārī . That is tapasya . Tapasya means brahmacārī . Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena, tyāgena, satya-śaucābhyāṁ yamena niyamena . This is tapasya . It is very strong power, this . . . therefore Bhāgavata said that this power, sex power, is there in the hogs. They have no discrimination between mother, sister, daughter. And simply busy. The example is given. This capacity is there in the hog. Are you hog? How example is given. Do you like to remain like a hog? One should be saintly. Yes. Then where is the difference, I'm a human being? I am treating like hog. Therefore this very example. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujām (SB 5.5.1). This is for the hogs. This hog civilization is going on as human civilization. That is the difficulty. Whole world is hogs and dogs. Big, big United Nation, and what are the assembly? Hogs and dogs. The politicians, as soon as he gets some time for relax, immediately he becomes hogs: go to the hotel, prostitute, and drink and dance. Is it not? All politicians. You become a big hog. That's all. Without becoming politician, a small hog. Because they have got politi . . . big hog. Akṣayānanda: It's terrible. Prabhupāda: So how you can expect prosperity from these big hogs? After all, he's hog. What benefit you can derive from this hogs, assembly of hogs, United Nation? United hogs. You cannot expect. He's hog. Now they're making propaganda for sterilization, and if we advise . . . Akṣayānanda: Yes. I was just thinking about that. Prabhupāda: No, no. If we advise, make a brahmacārī-āśrama from the beginning, they will not take. "What is this nonsense, brahmacārī ?" Akṣayānanda: Is it because they cannot? Do they reject it because they cannot do it? Prabhupāda: They can. They'll not accept the process. They can, everyone. Otherwise why these brahmacārīs ? Akṣayānanda: Otherwise how we could . . . *Prabhupāda: Just to be trained. That's all. By training we can find so many brahmacārīs . Just like by training you have given up so many things. You were accustomed to this illicit sex and meat*-eating and . . . but you have given up. But why? By training. So if we request the government, "Let us open this brahmacārī . . ." they'll not help. But they'll make the other propaganda. They'll make contraceptive method. And naturally one Hindu widow is trained up not to marry again. Once she got a husband, that's all right. "Now you convert your . . . you divert your attention to Kṛṣṇa." They'll make propaganda, "Why stop her sense gratification? Let her marry again, widow marriage." Why widow marriage? If there is voluntarily giving up begetting any more child, to avoid husband, why the widow marriage bill is introduced? Everything was natural, brahmacārī. The sterilization is already there. That will not be accepted. Widow, she's remaining refrained from. Just like we have now asked our girls not to dress attractively, widow. They should dress not attractively. Because after all, what is this sex enjoyment? Akṣayānanda: Finished. *Prabhupāda: It is not very good thing. By outward attraction they attract. Nice sārī, nice . . . (indistinct) . . . one becomes attracted. Therefore this is psychology, that if the woman does not dress very nicely, she will not be attractive. Unnecessarily attraction she will avoid. But a woman is naturally . . . her psychology is dress very nicely so that man may be attracted. Because they want shelter. This is the whole psychology. They, although they declare independence, they cannot live independently. That is not possible. Therefore they are by nature accustomed to dress attractively so that one may accept her and give her shelter. This is psychology. Otherwise, why the woman are naturally inclined to dress herself nice? Man does not. This is the psychology. A boy, sixteen*-years-old boy, he does not . . . he is roughly dressed, he does not . . . but a sixteen-year-old girl will never remain roughly. She'll always try to decorate herself very nicely and utilize her youthful beauty for attracting. Why attracting? Because she wants shelter. Therefore it is the duty of the father and mother that, "She is young girl, she wants shelter, and out of passion, lusty desires, her selection may be wrong. So before she selects out of her own way, let me—it is my duty, I am guardian—give her some good shelter." This is Hindu process. Akṣayānanda: Perfectly natural. Prabhupāda: Very natural. Akṣayānanda: But they say restricting. But they will say restricting, unnatural. *Prabhupāda: They may say, but this is natural psychology. Father, mother, they know, the well*-wisher of the children. Yes. Now everything is spoiled. But we don't care for this. We say take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything will be adjusted. Akṣayānanda: By sterilization, Prabhupāda . . . when they perform some operation, that will also spoil their intelligence. Prabhupāda: Everything is spoiled. Akṣayānanda: Because if the, as I have read, if the semina can go to the brain then there can be some intelligence, if even a little could go. Is it by sterilization no more can go to the brain, I think. So they have become bail (oxen). They've become like the bail. Prabhupāda: Nowadays boys are dull. Why dull? Akṣayānanda: So dull in India. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Because they discharge semina like anything. Must be dull. Akṣayānanda: Yeah. And then by . . . Prabhupāda: Uddhareta . There is a word, uddhareta . Reta means semina. One who has learned how to divert the movement of the semina to the brain, uddhareta , greatest yogī . By yogic power they can do that. Instead of discharging, going down. Akṣayānanda: So if they become sterilized, then there's no more possible for the semina to go up. Never again. Prabhupāda: No. Semina will not be produced. Akṣayānanda: It cannot . . . therefore it cannot go, nothing can go to the brain. Therefore their brain is finished for life. It is the same . . . Prabhupāda: Anything you do artificially . . . Akṣayānanda: It is just like making an operation on the brain. Sterilization is therefore the same . . . *Prabhupāda: The Kali*-yuga is . . . the material world is for suffering. Kali-yuga is more suffering. But it is not fault of the . . . just like this bābājī has been sterilized. Because the government knows, even the so-called sādhus and bābājīs , they are using their sex. Akṣayānanda: Bābājī has been . . .? Prabhupāda: They are now being, forcibly being taken. Akṣayānanda: Sterilized. Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know. I heard about it. Because they are having sex. Prabhupāda: It is open secret. Because so many women go to hospitals, American hospitals. Akṣayānanda: Oh, I know. Prabhupāda: The hospital men, they do not take it serious: "It is natural, a man and woman." But it is strictly forbidden according to spiritual life. Akṣayānanda: By law the doctor has to perform so many operations in his day of practice, medical practice. One doctor came here, he was our member. He said: "I have to go back to practice now. I have so many cases, sterilizations, to perform in this day; otherwise I won't get paid." Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: "I have to make so many people sterilization. Otherwise, I will not get paid. I will not be able to live now, because I must perform so many." Large figure. I've forgotten how many. Maybe one dozen in one day. One dozen, fifteen in one day. He must perform, by law. Prabhupāda: Just see. Akṣayānanda: Terrible. I often think it's like the bail. The bail, they have, with the bail gadi, and they cut. And the bail has no brain. He does anything you want. Devotee: What's a bail? Akṣayānanda: The oxen. And similarly the people now . . . (break) There must be a war very soon. It seems that there must be war very soon. War may happen very soon. Prabhupāda: There will be reaction. Akṣayānanda: Such a transgression of the laws, it cannot . . . how much further can it go, Prabhupāda? There must be a war very soon. Any day. Prabhupāda: Yes. I think they cannot ask you for sterilization. You are foreigners. Akṣayānanda: Ask us for sterilization. Hari-śauri: They can't sterilize us. Akṣayānanda: Well, nobody's asked us yet. Prabhupāda: No, legally can they? Akṣayānanda: By law, if you have three children. Hari-śauri: If you become Indian citizen, then. Akṣayānanda: If you have three children in your family, then by law you must have it. Prabhupāda: So you have no children. "So let me produce first of all three children." Akṣayānanda: Yes, right. That's what I thought. Prabhupāda: This argument. "First of all finish my . . ." Akṣayānanda: I had two when I was married. Prabhupāda: That is now . . . Akṣayānanda: But they are not here. They're not in the country. Prabhupāda: So, "We are sannyāsīs . We have no children. So why you are coming to us?" Akṣayānanda: They've never come, fortunately. Hari-śauri: They can only do that to their own citizens. They can only do that to Indian citizens. Prabhupāda: Foreigners . . . Akṣayānanda: So if I become Indian national, if I learn Hindi and become Indian national, then they will approach me? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Akṣayānanda: That can never happen. *Harikeśa: I just heard that seventy thousand women and thirty*-six thousand men. Akṣayānanda: Nasbandi , they call it. Nasbandi . Hari-śauri: That was just in one state. Harikeśa: In Delhi or U.P. or something. Prabhupāda: Nas means veins. Akṣayānanda: Means? Prabhupāda: Veins, these, veins. Akṣayānanda: Veins! I didn't know that. Bandi means stop it. Stop the vein so the semina will not go. Terrible. Harikeśa: You're sure about that? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Hari-śauri: They told you that's what they're doing. Stops you producing . . . they cut the tube that produces semina. Akṣayānanda: I don't know where they do it. Some part of the body. Hari-śauri: It's somewhere near the testes. They cut the tube. It takes ten minutes. And it stops you producing any more semina. Akṣayānanda: It's so bad. They give people . . . (break) . . . and eating so much nonsense. So the preaching in India has to be done very, very tactfully. Prabhupāda: No, just like I was speaking from *Bhāgavatam* . Akṣayānanda: Just what you have spoken. But our actions must be very tactful also. Prabhupāda: If you speak only on the subject matter as it is mentioned in the book, it is already tactful. Akṣayānanda: Jaya. But if we add something . . . Prabhupāda: *Now they are in a position of śoka*-moha-bhaya . So you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the best tact. Now it is the time. Now they are put into śoka-moha-bhaya . It is already there going on, śoka-moha-bhaya . But it is now special time for śoka-moha-bhaya . So you have to take it. It may be out of fear, bhaya , they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Akṣayānanda: Still, they have to just take, that's all. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Catur*-vidhā bhajante māṁ janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna ārto (BG 7.16). Ārto . Ārtaḥ means who is afraid of. So this is the position of ārta , śoka-moha-bhaya . Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But that he can take, provided he is sukṛtina —if there is background. But still, by hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa he becomes sukṛtina . Akṣayānanda: I think most of the devotees became by fear. I think most of the devotees have become devotees because of fear. Prabhupāda: Fear must be. If he's a gentleman he must be afraid of this material world. That is very good qualification. If one is afraid of this material existence, it is very good symptom. Akṣayānanda: Just about every devotee, before coming to you, has thought about suicide. Prabhupāda: Suicide? Oh. Akṣayānanda: So many, I know, I have spoken with them. And myself included. So many devotees, before . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, there was no hope. What is the use? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Just about every devotee, they have thought of suicide. Prabhupāda: Yes, they commit suicide. I have seen. Fall from the . . . Hari-śauri: Skyscraper. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tower. Akṣayānanda: Some have done. Prabhupāda: From the bridge. Hari-śauri: They have to put big wire screens up to stop people from jumping off. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen. Harikeśa: Berkeley. Prabhupāda: Berkeley, yes. Hari-śauri: Everywhere. Sydney has bridges like that. These big towers like Eiffel Tower in Paris, they have big fences along the top so that no one can . . . Prabhupāda: This practice is there in Vedic system. Not Vedic system . . . (indistinct) . . . fall down. There is technical name. Fall down from the mountain. This is easier than other type of suicide. Because you simply once jump, but as soon as you fall, you forget everything. Suicide itself is very bad. This fall down, serotan it is called. *Akṣayānanda: So one question I wanted to ask you in this connection is that this Vinoba, fasting until death, until cow slaughter is stopped. So if he dies, then he is guilty of murder. Is it correct? And if he's a brāhmaṇa , he is guilty of brahma*-hatya . So by this fasting he is committing a greater sin than the actual killing of the cows. Prabhupāda: You are right. Akṣayānanda: And what is the gain? *Prabhupāda: And what he'll get it? Does he think that by his dying of starvation this cow*-killing will be stopped? That is his foolishness. Akṣayānanda: He will die, and it will go on. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his foolishness. Akṣayānanda: And he does not know where he will go next. Prabhupāda: Just see, he is supposed to be very big man, and he's such a rascal. He has no sense what he is doing. Akṣayānanda: Plainly you have described in the *Gītā* . You have described plainly in the *Gītā* . No one else has done that. Cinmayananda's, this, that rascal, no one has. No one has explained that. They don't know. Prabhupāda: No, anyone who is not in our disciplic succession, he's not a human being. Cinmayananda, Vivekananda, this- ānanda , they simply . . . ānanda —there is no ānanda . All nirānanda . What Cinmayananda? He is supposed to be very big sannyāsī . What he has done? Akṣayānanda: What has he done? He advertised in the paper for young boys. Prabhupāda: There is one gentleman, Sadajiwatlal in Bombay. You know him? Akṣayānanda: Sadaji Mahatma? Prabhupāda: Sadajiwatlal. Akṣayānanda: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Chandu proprietor. Akṣayānanda: I know about him. I know of him. *Prabhupāda: He . . . he is very intelligent. He has said to a friend that Bhaktivedanta Swami sabka muh kala kar diya. (Bhaktivedanta Swami has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) Kāla means that he has made all other so*-called sannyāsīs , yogīs , black-faced. Akṣayānanda: (laughs) Jaya . He is intelligent. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Swami sabka muh kala kar diya. (Bhaktivedanta Swami has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) Akṣayānanda: It's true. It's true. Prabhupāda: Now here is a big sannyāsī , Akhandanandan, or Bon Maharaja. They are supposed to be big, big sannyāsī . Akṣayānanda: I do not know what Akhandanandan does. Prabhupāda: Anyway . . . (indistinct) . . . and this Anandamaya. Actually, I am not proud, but what they have done in comparison to me? Akṣayānanda: Yes, they've done nothing. Prabhupāda: He has said . . . sabka muh kala kar diya, (has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) Akṣayānanda: Mukāla . Prabhupāda: Kāla . Kāla means lajjita , black face. Everyone should be ashamed. They may be envious on account of their failure, but if you come to the actual valuation, sabka muh kala, (has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) That's a fact. Hari-śauri: Actually, that Bon Mahārāja is very black anyway. Prabhupāda: He's so black, there is no more black required. (laughter) A black snake. Kala brahmana, pota shudra . . . (Black brahmin , fair śūdra . . .) In Bengal it is said if a brahmin is black, he is dangerous. Akṣayānanda: If a brāhmin is black? *Prabhupāda: That means he's not pure brāhmin . Brāhmin cannot be black. Just like a European, if he becomes black, that means he has mixture. European and American, if he's black, that means mixture. So brāhmin family, how it has . . . still, family, it must be very fair, śukla . Brāhmin , kṣatriya family must be very beautiful. If he's pure. Kala brahmana, pota shudra, bete musholman, khankir chele, poshya*-putro . . . (indistinct) . . . (black brahmin , fair śūdra , dwarf Muslim, prostitute's son, adopted son . . . (indistinct) . . .) It is a slang language. (laughter) Kāla brāhmaṇa . Brāhmaṇa should not be black, and śūdra should not be white. And a Musselman should not be dwarf. Because formerly, real Musselmens were coming from Kabul, Afghanistan. That is called . . . (indistinct) . . . if a Musselman is dwarf, that means he is not real. Khankir chele . . . (Prostitute's son . . .) Prostitute's son, and poṣya-putra , adopted son. They are all of the same class. How this selection? Black brāhmin , white śūdra , dwarf Musselman, and prostitute's son and adopted son. Adopted son, he gets money without any earning and spends like . . . I have seen so many adopted sons. Hari-śauri: Adopted son, oh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like our . . . Haṁsadūta's wife, what is name? She has adopted a son. Hari-śauri: Oh, Himāvatī. Prabhupāda: Himāvatī. It is not like that. But generally, adopted son means spoiled son. Akṣayānanda: Spoiled. Spoiled brat. Prabhupāda: Because he gets money. Adopted . . . one who has got money but no children, he takes some adopted son. So the adopted son thinks that, "I have got so much money," and he has never worked. He is spoiled. I have seen many adopted son in our . . . got lakhs and lakhs of rupees, and in one night he's spoiled everything, simply after woman and wine. I have seen it. There was one gentleman, Narendranath Singh. Very big, palatial building and very rich man. And I have seen him when he was finished. He was friend of big, big person, Raja Maharlal. And one day I saw in Calcutta, in . . . (indistinct) . . . there was raining and he was sitting in a ricksha. And no friend. He had known practically all big men of Calcutta, friend. Nobody is coming. "Well, Narendra, you are sitting. Come on in my car." Nobody. I was . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was drenching, there was heavy rain. And sitting in a . . . and he was keeping Rolls Royce car. Akṣayānanda: Keeping? Prabhupāda: Rolls Royce car. When he was rich man. Akṣayānanda: Sometimes while traveling I've met some very old, rich men lying on their deathbed, dying. I approached them to help us. They will not give a single penny. It is all going to the son, and the son is atheist. In the house there is everywhere Kṛṣṇa's picture. Very difficult. They don't know that Kṛṣṇa is giving them a chance. They die; within days some of them can die. They are lying on the bed, passing stool and urine. So rich. But they do not care to help this movement. So many people like that. We have to become very expert. (end) *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's bhakti*-nitya-siddha is already there. Otherwise it was not possible to become so successful in the foreign countries. They are not fools, accepting something bogus. Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa consciousness has succeeded amongst all kinds of religions. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: It's succeeded amongst all kinds of religions, amongst all kinds of nations. Prabhupāda: Everything. Harikeśa: All kinds of economic systems. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat ( BG 7.7): "There is nothing greater than Me." How anything can exceed Kṛṣṇa? That's all. You present Kṛṣṇa right, then Kṛṣṇa will exceed anything—any department of knowledge, any department of activity. Anything. Supreme, parataram . Para*-taram. Tara is used—superlative. If our men become serious to distribute . . . of course, it is not possible that the whole world will be Kṛṣṇa conscious, but at least they will know that there is such a thing. I may know at least there is diamond. I may not be able to purchase. That everyone can know: there is a very valuable jewel. Even though he has not seen it, still he'll appreciate that there is a very valuable jewel known as diamond. That much will also help. When he has got money, he can purchase it. (break) Because gentleman will come you have to break this wall. What is this nonsense? Akṣayānanda: Yes, actually I didn't want it broken. Prabhupāda: You didn't know, but it is going on. Akṣayānanda: Now they have to finish. Prabhupāda: Any rascal comes, he gives some order. This is the difficulty. Akṣayānanda: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: Any rascal comes, he's a third*-class man, he gives some idea. Akṣayānanda: I'm going to get this work finished today, definitely. Prabhupāda: He has no position; *he is third*-class man. He has given some idea, "Here, you break it." That is the nature. And how long this work will continue? Throughout the whole life? Akṣayānanda: No. I'm going to finish it today. Prabhupāda: You say no, but it is going on. You simply say "No," "Yes," "No," "Very good." That's all. Akṣayānanda: When I go away and I come back and the wall is broken, what can I do? Prabhupāda: Don't go. Akṣayānanda: That's right. Prabhupāda: You don't manufacture idea. Don't allow others to manufacture ideas. Akṣayānanda: Right, right. Prabhupāda: Simply manufacturing idea. Akṣayānanda: I understand. Prabhupāda: In Bombay also they have manufactured idea. One hole, one lift. There is no need, and you have manufactured some idea. Very expert in manufacturing nonsense ideas. Hari-śauri: The thing is how to distinguish between what's a good idea . . . Prabhupāda: You have to take ideas from your guru . Akṣayānanda: From intelligence. *Prabhupāda: Therefore gurum evābhigacchet . Why do you manufacture yourself? Consult the authorities, then do it. That is intelligence. Why do you think that you are very intelligent? That is materialism. The more you remain that, "I am a fool," that is good. And as soon as you become over*-intelligent, then, that's finished. So Europeans, Americans, they are over-intelligent. They have intelligence, over-intelligence. Unnecessarily. They manufacture a machine for shaving: gow-gow-gow-gow-gow-gow . (makes machine sound). (laughter) And they have wasted so much time. So much time. But people like it. Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda, if we don't use soap, the question has come up, how to wash the clothes? How to wash the cloth? If you do not use any soap, the question has come up, how to wash the cloth? By beating only? Sufficient? Prabhupāda: For washing cloth you require soap. But does not . . . you require everything, but because you are spending without any sense . . . so I calculated yesterday the whole thing, Deity worship, Deity pūjā , will require five hundred rupees per month. Akṣayānanda: I had requested for the flowers . . . Viśvambhara said twelve rupees you had decided last night. Prabhupāda: Twelve rupees, thirteen rupees . . . Akṣayānanda: Twelve, thirteen. Actually today, I wanted for today, but the flower man was not able to . . . we could not catch him in time. But from tomorrow it will start, definitely. Prabhupāda: The thing is that one who is cheating you, he will cheat in twelve rupees, also he will cheat in fifty rupees. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: He knows how to cheat you. Akṣayānanda: Yes, they're expert. Prabhupāda: Where do they get flowers? Akṣayānanda: There are two flower men. They come here from Bankebehari. Now Viśvambhara has made two, because they make a competition between each other, and therefore they keep down. But . . . Prabhupāda: Nobody is honest. Akṣayānanda: But still old flowers are coming. Still old flowers are coming. We're getting cheap, but old ones are coming. Brown flowers, old ones are coming. It's just by experience, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where they get flower? Akṣayānanda: Wherefrom? The actual flower men? I don't know. Prabhupāda: In the market the flowers are not sold? Akṣayānanda: I don't know. Viśvambhara said that this was the best. Viśvambhara is very expert. He's supremely expert at catching these cheaters. But even he gets cheated sometimes. Even things go by and he doesn't notice. He's very, very expert. If I ever get to be as expert as him, then maybe something good will happen. But even he is also being cheated sometimes. Prabhupāda: Cheating is one of the qualification of the conditioned soul. Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda, Viśvambhara . . . Prabhupāda: Vipralipsa , vipralipsa . Bhrama , pramada , vipralipsa , karaṇāpāṭava . So cheating is a qualification of the conditioned soul. Everyone is expert in cheating, more or less. That is qualification. People take pride, "Oh, I have cheated. I am so expert that I have cheated." When the lawyers make some agreement between the two lawyers, simply think, "How I can cheat you? How can I cheat you?" That's all. The more one lawyer is expert in cheating, he is big lawyer. Hari-śauri: Yes, because their business is to avoid the law. Akṣayānanda: They are called lawyer, but their business is to break the law. Prabhupāda: Yes. The best cheater is the best lawyer. Akṣayānanda: So that means if we become pure then we can avoid being cheated, because we ourselves will not cheat anymore. Prabhupāda: No, this world is full of cheaters. We have to live with them. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret . You also have to become better cheater. That is wanted. Otherwise, you cannot exist. Akṣayānanda: But we have to cheat for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Do everything for Kṛṣṇa, that is all right. But this world, if you become simple and the whole world is full of cheaters, then you suffer. Akṣayānanda: You lose always. *Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to know and protect yourself from the cheaters. So sometimes we have to become a bigger cheater. This is the world. Vañcaka*-vañcī . Whole world is going on, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, that one is cheater, another is cheated. Hari-śauri: There's a saying in English . . . what is it? "Set a thief to catch a thief." The purport is that you have to think like a thief, then you can catch him, you can know what he's doing. Prabhupāda: Set a fish? Hari-śauri: Set a thief to catch a thief. Prabhupāda: Thief, oh, yes. You can reply him . . . (break) Those who are actually serious to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are welcome. *Akṣayānanda: Pāpī*-tāpī jata chilo . *Prabhupāda: Yes. If he's serious to become free from this material world and go back to home, back to . . . you welcome him. We don't make any discrimination. Ābāla*-vṛddha-vanitā . Bāla means children, vṛddha means old man, and vanitā means woman. They are most helpless. Ābāla-vṛddha-vanitā. Vanitā . Beginning from the child up to the old man, and . . . but coming here, if they plan for sense gratification, that is very dangerous. Come here, stay with us. We shall somehow or other provide him with prasādam and place. But be advanced. And the simple method is recommended: Very simple thing. Yasyāṁ vai śrūyamāṇāyām . Simply hear *Bhāgavatam* . And actually if anyone seriously reads *Bhāgavatam* , he'll become saintly, no doubt about it. Akṣayānanda: Your Bhāgavata . There are no others actually. Prabhupāda: Vyāsadeva, the words of Vyāsadeva, I am simply trying to explain, that's all. Akṣayānanda: No one else is trying. No one else has done it. Prabhupāda: It is due to the blessing of my Guru Mahārāja. He directly told me that "If you get some money, publish some books." I took it seriously, so he's helping me. All our Godbrothers, they didn't take it. Did not know it, neither . . . even they . . . they know it. Because from the very beginning, Guru Mahārāja was serious about publication. He started press and published these books. This Bhāgavata was published by him. And the journal, six journals, he was very much fond of publishing, publication. Very, very. He told me directly that, "If it was possible to get the marbles from this Gauḍīya Maṭha and sell it and convert it into books, I would have done it. Because I know there will be blazing fire in this place." (break) . . . books. Akṣayānanda: Yeah, I know. Prabhupāda: And by Kṛṣṇa's grace, by selling books we are getting. This is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise . . . this Bon Mahārāja is so proud of his institution. He could not do this. He could have done it. For the last forty years. *Akṣayānanda: He does not speak kṛṣṇa*-kathā , Prabhupāda. So five thousand you have estimated for the Deities? Five thousand. For a month you have estimated last night five thousand? Prabhupāda: Five hundred. Akṣayānanda: Five hundred. For all . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For a month? Akṣayānanda: With Viśvambhara you had discussed? Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Then I'll talk to him now. Prabhupāda: Just like we were going to, in the evening . . . don't divert attention. In the evening we have estimated four plates. Each plate, eight purīs. Akṣayānanda: Six plates. *Prabhupāda: Six plates. Six plates, eight purīs , means forty*-eight purīs . Forty-eight purīs , Viśvambhara calculated the atta and ghee . Akṣayānanda: Yes, you already made that estimate. Prabhupāda: Two rupees. Atta and ghee , two rupees. Then other preparation, another two rupees. Akṣayānanda: He'll tell me everything, Prabhupāda. No need to . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, why don't you hear? Akṣayānanda: I'm sorry. Prabhupāda: You are hearing now. Four rupees to prepare all the plates. Four rupees, say five rupees. So five rupees, monthly 150 rupees. So we are offering four times. So 150 rupees four times. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Six hundred rupees. Prabhupāda: Six hundred rupees. So take another four hundred rupees, make one thousand. It should not go more than five hundred to one thousand. You spend it. Harikeśa: But milk, when you cook down milk to make a sweet . . . Prabhupāda: I have taken from six hundred to one thousand. All the maintenance. Akṣayānanda: I will take every item with Viśvambhara, every single item. Prabhupāda: You don't believe me? Akṣayānanda: I can't understand. My intelligence is not great enough to understand it. I believe you, but I have to do it, that's all. Prabhupāda: It cannot go more than one thousand. Akṣayānanda: I can't quite grasp it, Prabhupāda. But you say it can't go above five hundred, so that'll be it. Prabhupāda: No, no. Five hundred, that is rough calculation. But we add another five hundred, if there is any mistake or any error and omission. Therefore I have added another five hundred. Akṣayānanda: That means a thousand. Prabhupāda: Thousand. That is sufficient. Akṣayānanda: Maximum. Prabhupāda: Maximum. And you were speaking 9,000. Akṣayānanda: This is for food. Food only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It is for Deity messing. Akṣayānanda: Deity food only. Yes. Prabhupāda: So I am speaking of the Deity, not for all. For all others, hundred rupees per head, five thousand rupees. Here purī , kachorīs , and other things, all the best things. But general is not for purī , kachorī , and . . . they are general food. We are not going to supply purī , kachorī , halavā to everyone. Akṣayānanda: No, never. Never have. Prabhupāda: Only for the Deity. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Others are just dāl , sabjī , rice, cāpāṭi . Prabhupāda: Everything. Everything calculated. Akṣayānanda: I believe you, Prabhupāda. But to make it practical I want to see every item. The cost, the weight and everything. Prabhupāda: It is already calculated. Akṣayānanda: Then I can do it. Then we can do it. Prabhupāda: It is already calculated. I calculated, not with a fool, with an experienced man. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have one other question regarding . . . we are going to observe very strict policies. Unless somebody is working, he cannot stay in the temple. If some other tourist devotee comes from some other center, he can only stay for three days. But beyond that he should either pay or he should go and preach or do something else. Akṣayānanda: Like some service. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What should we do with . . . like there's some sannyāsīs here, like Yaśodānandana Swami and his party. I hear they're going to stay for the whole month. They're already here since two weeks. They're occupying two rooms, everything. They're going to stay here till the end of the month. Akṣayānanda: Get him to go and preach for Vṛndāvana. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The only reason I'm talking this is because now it's really tight. We can't take . . . they have air*-conditioned room . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, they should go and preach and bring some collection. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're just relaxed, resting for a month. Akṣayānanda: A month is too long, Prabhupāda said. Prabhupāda said three days a sannyāsī should stay, and then he should go and travel. The wheels should be turning. I'll talk to him. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because this just adds up. A ten*-people party staying here for a month . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, they've always come, so there must be some control. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Few men are here from Haṁsadūta's party who eat with us. All this just adds up, then our budget cannot be maintained. Akṣayānanda: I'll preach to him. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Air*-conditioned room. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. They're our men. Harikeśa: Yes. It's required. If anyone's ever done a big preaching program, he cannot . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But one month . . . Akṣayānanda: A month is a long time. Maybe a week. But a month . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Week is sufficient. One month is too much. That is laziness. Akṣayānanda: Residential. Laziness. Prabhupāda: So he was preaching in the South India, so why he came here? There was no resting place? Harikeśa: He came here . . . actually, they're going north soon. They're going to be in Chandigarh when we're in Chandigarh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is six weeks from now. Harikeśa: That's all right. They're also going north and preaching, and he's having a very hard time getting his financial position down. And he has no men. Two, three, four men. He's having . . . Prabhupāda: How he'll return my fifteen thousand? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That Mahāṁsa has taken. Prabhupāda: I do not know Mahāṁsa has taken. He has to return it. Harikeśa: He never got it. And he wanted to join with Haṁsadūta, do some type of . . . (indistinct) . . . he's not in a very easy position right now. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He could become a part of Vṛndāvana and take a team out of Vṛndāvana. Akṣayānanda: I always wanted Vṛndāvana should have one bus. That is to say, if there is not too much endeavor to get one bus. There's so many buses are floating are through the air. Why could Vṛndāvana not have one bus? In that way they can always be just like Kīrtanānanda Swami. There is always saṅkīrtana going and coming, going and coming. And the same people . . . Prabhupāda: Ānanda Swami? Akṣayānanda: Kīrtanānanda, in New Vṛndāvana. All his people, they must go out and do kīrtana and distribute books. They must. Everybody does it. In that way the . . . I'm told this, anyway. In that way the devotees are enlivened, and they don't become restless in the temple. Then the same ones . . . it's our bus, and they will come back to our temple. So we will not lose too many good devotees because they will not be attracted to go away on others'. So if we had one bus . . . Yaśodānandana Mahārāja, I will discuss with him. I already have. I'll just try to discuss it more. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurudāsa Swami is coming to Vṛndāvana with a bus. He said he's going to give it to Vṛndāvana. Akṣayānanda: And there's no need for me to go out. There's so many nice sannyāsīs . So many big preachers and so many buses. So if we just try it. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Īśvara*-candra prabhu has come from Mathurā. (break) Prabhupāda: When you will come to preach something? You take it from me. *Īśvara*-candra: Last one and a half year I'm trying for something in Mathurā, but I'm . . . Prabhupāda: You are trying in your own way. But Kṛṣṇa does not like that program. You can manufacture your something, idea, but Kṛṣṇa will allow or not. I tell you. This is practical. You are a qualified man, foreign educated man, and you have come back for the last one and a half years, still you are in nothing. It is surprising. That means Kṛṣṇa does not want you to do that something. You take it from me. These boys have come because they found, outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness, life is nothing. That's a fact. Therefore they are sticking to this. They knew it very well, that outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness the whole world was vacant, "Nothing for us." That is a fact. Therefore they have got something here. They are not foolish rascals they're sticking for nothing. There is something. It's a fact. So for nothing, "Oh, we have suffered." And come to something, if you want. That's Prāṇava, he is trying for something. He has come also in Vṛndāvana more than one year also. Huh? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Two, three years. Harikeśa: More than that. Three and a half years. *Prabhupāda: And he's trying to do something. The same "something." He was at home, the same woman and same man. And again also here the same woman and man, and trying to do something. But he has no customer. He has only customer how to cheat these Europeans and Americans. Surmā (kohl) merchant. As if surmā is not available in the market. And he advertises "This is my special formula, and this is this, this is this. You take it and give me five hundred rupees and go away." He cannot sell outside. Otherwise, why he's sticking to Vṛndāvana? Thinking "The fools and rascals, the Americans are. I shall introduce." Kyu thik bola? Ye unka kaam chal raha hai. Humara to apna nahi hai je American ko cheat karke . . . (indistinct) . . . banaunga . . . (So, am I correct? This is going on. Our aim is not to cheat the Americans . . . (indistinct) . . .) That this material world has become nothing. You come to something now. Idhar raat me raho, jo kamra . . . (indistinct) . . . wo kamra de denge aur lo Bhagavan ka prasad, daal*-roti mil jayega khana, kaam karo. Kyu lehsun khate ho sab? Kya labh? . . . (Stay here tonight, that room . . . (indistinct) . . . will be provided for you, take the Lord's prasādam , chapati and dāl and work nicely. Why consume onion and garlic? What's the use?) If anyone wants to go to Bhagavān, then he has to make this material world voluntarily nothing. Niṣkiñcanasya . Niṣkiñcana means nothing. You understand, you translate. You know the meaning of niṣkiñcana . Kiñcana means "something," and niḥ means "not." Then nothing. So one who has made this material world as nothing. How it is made? Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Because with this something, as soon as one will stick to this something, he'll suffer. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because he has accepted this rascal situation, asat. Asat means either temporary or bad. Asat . Tum to translate karte ho. Asat ka arth kya hota hai? (You can translate. What's the meaning of asat ?) Temporary or useless. So this material world is . . . temporary, we can know it is. But it is useless, that we do not know. Therefore we struggle. "Let me go. Let me fight, fight, fight, fight." That is māyā . Gadha ko jaise ghas dikhata hai. (Just like they show grass to a donkey.) You know that? A man is sitting on the ass. And his hand just on the front of the gādhā , ass, he's putting some grass. And the gādhā is thinking, "I will eat this grass," so he's going forward. But the grass is also going forward. This is very instructive. The grass is, say, one feet above his head, and the man is sitting on his back. But because this gādhā does not know that "Actually, this man is sitting on my . . . as soon as I go forward, the grass also goes forward." But because he's ass, he does not know. He thinks that, "If I go a little forward I'll get the grass." But he has no knowledge that the arrangement is so made that as you go forward the grass also goes forward. Another example is that meerage. Myrage? There is no water. Harikeśa: Mirage. Prabhupāda: Mirage. There is no water; *it appears there is water. And the animal goes forward and it goes forward, it goes forward. So this material world is like that. Ask anybody, any so*-called successful. Unless he's an ass, nobody will say that this is very comfortable. So best thing is to become niṣkiñcana . Niṣkiñcanasya bhāgavata-bhajana . . . this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. Bhāgavata-bhajana means niṣkiñcana . You make nothing this material world. That is real Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so long I'll make this material world something, then I'll suffer. Best thing is make it . . . just like Draupadī. Draupadī, when she was grabbed in the assembly and Duryodhana and Karṇa wanted to make her naked . . . so generally woman, if you try to make her naked she'll try to save herself. So she was trying to save herself, and when she thought, "There is no way. My husbands are here. They are not helping, and . . . so cloth is being supplied by Kṛṣṇa, but how long I shall?" No, before Kṛṣṇa helping, she was trying to help herself. But when she found that it is not possible, then (s)he did not try to save the cloth. (S)he said: "Kṛṣṇa, save me!" Two arms. You have seen the picture. And then Kṛṣṇa supplied cloth. So it is, "Go on, yes, Duḥśāsana, you go on. You try to make her naked. I'll supply." *So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, that one should, if one is serious about bhagavad*-bhajana , he should take it, whole material world, as nothing. Sometimes I think, "I made nothing this material world, and again retired in Vṛndāvana. Again, Kṛṣṇa, you have given so many things. What is the purpose?" At that time, I remember Rūpa Gosvāmī's instruction, "This is not mine. This is Kṛṣṇa's." Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgya . We are exerting so much energy to construct a temple, but as soon as we become implicated, "Now I have got this big building. Let me live very comfortably," then it is very dangerous. So long we work for Kṛṣṇa, it is Kṛṣṇa's, I am still nothing. And as soon as I take it, "Oh, now I have got very good, comfortable place. Make me again something," (laughs) take that as dangerous. Otherwise, there is no danger. Therefore we have to be engaged always in Kṛṣṇa's service. Not that, "Because we have got this nice building and income also, let us now sit down and eat." Then you'll stop. You shall have to be engaged always. Because our brain is materialistic, as soon as there is little chance of utilizing for sense gratification, mind: "Yes, yes. Do it." Still, we have to do it. *Rūpa Gosvāmī. Hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ . Things which are connected with Kṛṣṇa, you should never think it that it is material. It is spiritual. . . . Samajh me aya hai to ye sab nothing ko choro. Uska . . . (indistinct) . . . nothing jab hai to nothing hi kar do . . . "Ar na re baap!" (. . . if you have really understood, then give up all these things. Since your . . . (indistinct) . . . has ultimately come to nothing then leave that thing for good . . . "Not any more!",) Jagāi-Mādhāi . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him that, "You make this nothing, this sinful activity. Then I accept you." They promised, "Yes." That's all . . . (indistinct) . . . sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyaḥ (BG 18.66)." Kya ambition hai life me? (What is your ambition in life?) What is your ambition? Hmm? What is the ambition? *Īśvara*-candra: Nothing is there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Then again nothing? There must be something. Why you are sticking to that company? There must be some ambition. *Īśvara*-candra: I want to take care of my family what . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: So how you can take care with nothing? If Kṛṣṇa makes you nothing, then how you can take care of your family? Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nārtasya ca . . . (SB 7.9.19). These things I have explained, that we have got so many means against struggle for existence, but that is not final. Tāvat tanu*-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām . If there is no sanction from Kṛṣṇa, you cannot do it. It is impossible. If Kṛṣṇa does not like you to be implicated in that way, that is false, then how can you do it? You are thinking that "I shall take care of my family." But if Kṛṣṇa wants that you cannot take care of your family, then how you'll do it? Can you go against the will of Kṛṣṇa? You can understand at least this, if not very much advanced. You cannot go against the will of Kṛṣṇa. So you have tried for the last one and a half years, you could not improve your material situation. That means you are going against the will of Kṛṣṇa. Take it from me. Kitne bacche hai? (How many children do you have?) *Īśvara*-candra: I have four. Prabhupāda: Four. To jitne bacche idhar hai, usko do roti milta hai, dudh milta hai. Hum log bhi de sakte hai. Usme kya hai? (So all these kids here get milk and chapati daily. We can also provide. Where is the difficulty?) Separate. No more together. Phir panchva baccha ho jayega. (Then the fifth child will be born. Stop this. (Ajkal to government bhi mana karta hai. (Nowadays even the Government is forbidding people from having many children.) *Īśvara*-candra: What can I do? (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). Everything is discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Kṛpaṇa , brāhmaṇa , kṛpaṇa , tṛpyanti neha . He knows that "One bāccā has given me so much trouble." Illicit or legal, . . . jo kuch hoye (. . . whatever is the case.) It is troublesome business. Otherwise, why these Americans and Europeans, they're killing their own child? They don't want to take the botheration. Abhi to India me waha tak pahucha nahi. Aste aste pahuch jayega. Ab to shuru ho gaya, zabardasti. To . . . (In India, things have not deteriorated to such a low level but it won't take long. It has already been started by force.) So it is botheration, there is no doubt about it. The Bhāgavata says, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ . The kṛpaṇa . . . Jo kripana hota hai. Kripana ka artha hota hai . . . (One who is a miser. The meaning of kṛpaṇa is . . .) What is the meaning of kṛpaṇa ? Do you know? Miser. Miser, what is the meaning of miser? *Īśvara*-candra: He's got something but he doesn't want to . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got this something, human form of body, to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Instead of doing that, in spite of possessing this something, I am utilizing it for sense gratification. If you want sense gratification that's all right. Get one child, two child. Why again and again? Therefore śāstra says, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ (SB 7.9.45). Because he's kṛpaṇa , he's never satisfied. He's suffering—again, another child, again, another child. All right, you have got two child, one child, that's all right. Be satisfied. Why again and again? So kṛpaṇa . Kṛpaṇa , he does not know how to utilize this asset of human life. He's wasting the asset in a different way. Kṛpaṇa . One has to become brāhmaṇa . The opposite word of kṛpaṇa is brāhmaṇa. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). That is wanted. So we are giving brāhmaṇa's position. Instead of taking the brāhmaṇa position, if he wants to take again kṛpaṇa position, then what is the use of being initiated? All these great sages, saintly person, who were they? They were all brāhmaṇas . Brāhmaṇa . Śukadeva Gosvāmī is always addressed Brahman. Is it not? This is brāhmaṇa's business. It is not the kṛpaṇa's business. Kṛpaṇa's business means he does not know how to utilize the asset. *So Jab aya hai . . . (When you have come . . .) it is my duty to speak the truth. So now you can do whatever you like . . . give him prasādam . (break) . . . these words, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ . They have been described, it is just like . . . of course, it is very difficult, this itching. We have got practical experience. When there is some itching, we cannot stop it. We cannot stop it. Even if I do not want it, still . . . so it is like itching. Nothing more. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). The tapasya means how to control this itching sensation. This is tapasya . Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). Tapasya means, tapasya begins, now brahmacārī . That is tapasya . Tapasya means brahmacārī . Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena, tyāgena, satya-śaucābhyāṁ yamena niyamena . This is tapasya . It is very strong power, this . . . therefore Bhāgavata said that this power, sex power, is there in the hogs. They have no discrimination between mother, sister, daughter. And simply busy. The example is given. This capacity is there in the hog. Are you hog? How example is given. Do you like to remain like a hog? One should be saintly. Yes. Then where is the difference, I'm a human being? I am treating like hog. Therefore this very example. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujām (SB 5.5.1). This is for the hogs. This hog civilization is going on as human civilization. That is the difficulty. Whole world is hogs and dogs. Big, big United Nation, and what are the assembly? Hogs and dogs. The politicians, as soon as he gets some time for relax, immediately he becomes hogs: go to the hotel, prostitute, and drink and dance. Is it not? All politicians. You become a big hog. That's all. Without becoming politician, a small hog. Because they have got politi . . . big hog. Akṣayānanda: It's terrible. Prabhupāda: So how you can expect prosperity from these big hogs? After all, he's hog. What benefit you can derive from this hogs, assembly of hogs, United Nation? United hogs. You cannot expect. He's hog. Now they're making propaganda for sterilization, and if we advise . . . Akṣayānanda: Yes. I was just thinking about that. Prabhupāda: No, no. If we advise, make a brahmacārī-āśrama from the beginning, they will not take. "What is this nonsense, brahmacārī ?" Akṣayānanda: Is it because they cannot? Do they reject it because they cannot do it? Prabhupāda: They can. They'll not accept the process. They can, everyone. Otherwise why these brahmacārīs ? Akṣayānanda: Otherwise how we could . . . *Prabhupāda: Just to be trained. That's all. By training we can find so many brahmacārīs . Just like by training you have given up so many things. You were accustomed to this illicit sex and meat*-eating and . . . but you have given up. But why? By training. So if we request the government, "Let us open this brahmacārī . . ." they'll not help. But they'll make the other propaganda. They'll make contraceptive method. And naturally one Hindu widow is trained up not to marry again. Once she got a husband, that's all right. "Now you convert your . . . you divert your attention to Kṛṣṇa." They'll make propaganda, "Why stop her sense gratification? Let her marry again, widow marriage." Why widow marriage? If there is voluntarily giving up begetting any more child, to avoid husband, why the widow marriage bill is introduced? Everything was natural, brahmacārī. The sterilization is already there. That will not be accepted. Widow, she's remaining refrained from. Just like we have now asked our girls not to dress attractively, widow. They should dress not attractively. Because after all, what is this sex enjoyment? Akṣayānanda: Finished. *Prabhupāda: It is not very good thing. By outward attraction they attract. Nice sārī, nice . . . (indistinct) . . . one becomes attracted. Therefore this is psychology, that if the woman does not dress very nicely, she will not be attractive. Unnecessarily attraction she will avoid. But a woman is naturally . . . her psychology is dress very nicely so that man may be attracted. Because they want shelter. This is the whole psychology. They, although they declare independence, they cannot live independently. That is not possible. Therefore they are by nature accustomed to dress attractively so that one may accept her and give her shelter. This is psychology. Otherwise, why the woman are naturally inclined to dress herself nice? Man does not. This is the psychology. A boy, sixteen*-years-old boy, he does not . . . he is roughly dressed, he does not . . . but a sixteen-year-old girl will never remain roughly. She'll always try to decorate herself very nicely and utilize her youthful beauty for attracting. Why attracting? Because she wants shelter. Therefore it is the duty of the father and mother that, "She is young girl, she wants shelter, and out of passion, lusty desires, her selection may be wrong. So before she selects out of her own way, let me—it is my duty, I am guardian—give her some good shelter." This is Hindu process. Akṣayānanda: Perfectly natural. Prabhupāda: Very natural. Akṣayānanda: But they say restricting. But they will say restricting, unnatural. *Prabhupāda: They may say, but this is natural psychology. Father, mother, they know, the well*-wisher of the children. Yes. Now everything is spoiled. But we don't care for this. We say take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything will be adjusted. Akṣayānanda: By sterilization, Prabhupāda . . . when they perform some operation, that will also spoil their intelligence. Prabhupāda: Everything is spoiled. Akṣayānanda: Because if the, as I have read, if the semina can go to the brain then there can be some intelligence, if even a little could go. Is it by sterilization no more can go to the brain, I think. So they have become bail (oxen). They've become like the bail. Prabhupāda: Nowadays boys are dull. Why dull? Akṣayānanda: So dull in India. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Because they discharge semina like anything. Must be dull. Akṣayānanda: Yeah. And then by . . . Prabhupāda: Uddhareta . There is a word, uddhareta . Reta means semina. One who has learned how to divert the movement of the semina to the brain, uddhareta , greatest yogī . By yogic power they can do that. Instead of discharging, going down. Akṣayānanda: So if they become sterilized, then there's no more possible for the semina to go up. Never again. Prabhupāda: No. Semina will not be produced. Akṣayānanda: It cannot . . . therefore it cannot go, nothing can go to the brain. Therefore their brain is finished for life. It is the same . . . Prabhupāda: Anything you do artificially . . . Akṣayānanda: It is just like making an operation on the brain. Sterilization is therefore the same . . . *Prabhupāda: The Kali*-yuga is . . . the material world is for suffering. Kali-yuga is more suffering. But it is not fault of the . . . just like this bābājī has been sterilized. Because the government knows, even the so-called sādhus and bābājīs , they are using their sex. Akṣayānanda: Bābājī has been . . .? Prabhupāda: They are now being, forcibly being taken. Akṣayānanda: Sterilized. Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know. I heard about it. Because they are having sex. Prabhupāda: It is open secret. Because so many women go to hospitals, American hospitals. Akṣayānanda: Oh, I know. Prabhupāda: The hospital men, they do not take it serious: "It is natural, a man and woman." But it is strictly forbidden according to spiritual life. Akṣayānanda: By law the doctor has to perform so many operations in his day of practice, medical practice. One doctor came here, he was our member. He said: "I have to go back to practice now. I have so many cases, sterilizations, to perform in this day; otherwise I won't get paid." Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: "I have to make so many people sterilization. Otherwise, I will not get paid. I will not be able to live now, because I must perform so many." Large figure. I've forgotten how many. Maybe one dozen in one day. One dozen, fifteen in one day. He must perform, by law. Prabhupāda: Just see. Akṣayānanda: Terrible. I often think it's like the bail. The bail, they have, with the bail gadi, and they cut. And the bail has no brain. He does anything you want. Devotee: What's a bail? Akṣayānanda: The oxen. And similarly the people now . . . (break) There must be a war very soon. It seems that there must be war very soon. War may happen very soon. Prabhupāda: There will be reaction. Akṣayānanda: Such a transgression of the laws, it cannot . . . how much further can it go, Prabhupāda? There must be a war very soon. Any day. Prabhupāda: Yes. I think they cannot ask you for sterilization. You are foreigners. Akṣayānanda: Ask us for sterilization. Hari-śauri: They can't sterilize us. Akṣayānanda: Well, nobody's asked us yet. Prabhupāda: No, legally can they? Akṣayānanda: By law, if you have three children. Hari-śauri: If you become Indian citizen, then. Akṣayānanda: If you have three children in your family, then by law you must have it. Prabhupāda: So you have no children. "So let me produce first of all three children." Akṣayānanda: Yes, right. That's what I thought. Prabhupāda: This argument. "First of all finish my . . ." Akṣayānanda: I had two when I was married. Prabhupāda: That is now . . . Akṣayānanda: But they are not here. They're not in the country. Prabhupāda: So, "We are sannyāsīs . We have no children. So why you are coming to us?" Akṣayānanda: They've never come, fortunately. Hari-śauri: They can only do that to their own citizens. They can only do that to Indian citizens. Prabhupāda: Foreigners . . . Akṣayānanda: So if I become Indian national, if I learn Hindi and become Indian national, then they will approach me? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Akṣayānanda: That can never happen. *Harikeśa: I just heard that seventy thousand women and thirty*-six thousand men. Akṣayānanda: Nasbandi , they call it. Nasbandi . Hari-śauri: That was just in one state. Harikeśa: In Delhi or U.P. or something. Prabhupāda: Nas means veins. Akṣayānanda: Means? Prabhupāda: Veins, these, veins. Akṣayānanda: Veins! I didn't know that. Bandi means stop it. Stop the vein so the semina will not go. Terrible. Harikeśa: You're sure about that? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Hari-śauri: They told you that's what they're doing. Stops you producing . . . they cut the tube that produces semina. Akṣayānanda: I don't know where they do it. Some part of the body. Hari-śauri: It's somewhere near the testes. They cut the tube. It takes ten minutes. And it stops you producing any more semina. Akṣayānanda: It's so bad. They give people . . . (break) . . . and eating so much nonsense. So the preaching in India has to be done very, very tactfully. Prabhupāda: No, just like I was speaking from *Bhāgavatam* . Akṣayānanda: Just what you have spoken. But our actions must be very tactful also. Prabhupāda: If you speak only on the subject matter as it is mentioned in the book, it is already tactful. Akṣayānanda: Jaya. But if we add something . . . Prabhupāda: *Now they are in a position of śoka*-moha-bhaya . So you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the best tact. Now it is the time. Now they are put into śoka-moha-bhaya . It is already there going on, śoka-moha-bhaya . But it is now special time for śoka-moha-bhaya . So you have to take it. It may be out of fear, bhaya , they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Akṣayānanda: Still, they have to just take, that's all. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Catur*-vidhā bhajante māṁ janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna ārto (BG 7.16). Ārto . Ārtaḥ means who is afraid of. So this is the position of ārta , śoka-moha-bhaya . Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But that he can take, provided he is sukṛtina —if there is background. But still, by hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa he becomes sukṛtina . Akṣayānanda: I think most of the devotees became by fear. I think most of the devotees have become devotees because of fear. Prabhupāda: Fear must be. If he's a gentleman he must be afraid of this material world. That is very good qualification. If one is afraid of this material existence, it is very good symptom. Akṣayānanda: Just about every devotee, before coming to you, has thought about suicide. Prabhupāda: Suicide? Oh. Akṣayānanda: So many, I know, I have spoken with them. And myself included. So many devotees, before . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, there was no hope. What is the use? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Just about every devotee, they have thought of suicide. Prabhupāda: Yes, they commit suicide. I have seen. Fall from the . . . Hari-śauri: Skyscraper. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tower. Akṣayānanda: Some have done. Prabhupāda: From the bridge. Hari-śauri: They have to put big wire screens up to stop people from jumping off. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen. Harikeśa: Berkeley. Prabhupāda: Berkeley, yes. Hari-śauri: Everywhere. Sydney has bridges like that. These big towers like Eiffel Tower in Paris, they have big fences along the top so that no one can . . . Prabhupāda: This practice is there in Vedic system. Not Vedic system . . . (indistinct) . . . fall down. There is technical name. Fall down from the mountain. This is easier than other type of suicide. Because you simply once jump, but as soon as you fall, you forget everything. Suicide itself is very bad. This fall down, serotan it is called. *Akṣayānanda: So one question I wanted to ask you in this connection is that this Vinoba, fasting until death, until cow slaughter is stopped. So if he dies, then he is guilty of murder. Is it correct? And if he's a brāhmaṇa , he is guilty of brahma*-hatya . So by this fasting he is committing a greater sin than the actual killing of the cows. Prabhupāda: You are right. Akṣayānanda: And what is the gain? *Prabhupāda: And what he'll get it? Does he think that by his dying of starvation this cow*-killing will be stopped? That is his foolishness. Akṣayānanda: He will die, and it will go on. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his foolishness. Akṣayānanda: And he does not know where he will go next. Prabhupāda: Just see, he is supposed to be very big man, and he's such a rascal. He has no sense what he is doing. Akṣayānanda: Plainly you have described in the *Gītā* . You have described plainly in the *Gītā* . No one else has done that. Cinmayananda's, this, that rascal, no one has. No one has explained that. They don't know. Prabhupāda: No, anyone who is not in our disciplic succession, he's not a human being. Cinmayananda, Vivekananda, this- ānanda , they simply . . . ānanda —there is no ānanda . All nirānanda . What Cinmayananda? He is supposed to be very big sannyāsī . What he has done? Akṣayānanda: What has he done? He advertised in the paper for young boys. Prabhupāda: There is one gentleman, Sadajiwatlal in Bombay. You know him? Akṣayānanda: Sadaji Mahatma? Prabhupāda: Sadajiwatlal. Akṣayānanda: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Chandu proprietor. Akṣayānanda: I know about him. I know of him. *Prabhupāda: He . . . he is very intelligent. He has said to a friend that Bhaktivedanta Swami sabka muh kala kar diya. (Bhaktivedanta Swami has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) Kāla means that he has made all other so*-called sannyāsīs , yogīs , black-faced. Akṣayānanda: (laughs) Jaya . He is intelligent. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Swami sabka muh kala kar diya. (Bhaktivedanta Swami has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) Akṣayānanda: It's true. It's true. Prabhupāda: Now here is a big sannyāsī , Akhandanandan, or Bon Maharaja. They are supposed to be big, big sannyāsī . Akṣayānanda: I do not know what Akhandanandan does. Prabhupāda: Anyway . . . (indistinct) . . . and this Anandamaya. Actually, I am not proud, but what they have done in comparison to me? Akṣayānanda: Yes, they've done nothing. Prabhupāda: He has said . . . sabka muh kala kar diya, (has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) Akṣayānanda: Mukāla . Prabhupāda: Kāla . Kāla means lajjita , black face. Everyone should be ashamed. They may be envious on account of their failure, but if you come to the actual valuation, sabka muh kala, (has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) That's a fact. Hari-śauri: Actually, that Bon Mahārāja is very black anyway. Prabhupāda: He's so black, there is no more black required. (laughter) A black snake. Kala brahmana, pota shudra . . . (Black brahmin , fair śūdra . . .) In Bengal it is said if a brahmin is black, he is dangerous. Akṣayānanda: If a brāhmin is black? *Prabhupāda: That means he's not pure brāhmin . Brāhmin cannot be black. Just like a European, if he becomes black, that means he has mixture. European and American, if he's black, that means mixture. So brāhmin family, how it has . . . still, family, it must be very fair, śukla . Brāhmin , kṣatriya family must be very beautiful. If he's pure. Kala brahmana, pota shudra, bete musholman, khankir chele, poshya*-putro . . . (indistinct) . . . (black brahmin , fair śūdra , dwarf Muslim, prostitute's son, adopted son . . . (indistinct) . . .) It is a slang language. (laughter) Kāla brāhmaṇa . Brāhmaṇa should not be black, and śūdra should not be white. And a Musselman should not be dwarf. Because formerly, real Musselmens were coming from Kabul, Afghanistan. That is called . . . (indistinct) . . . if a Musselman is dwarf, that means he is not real. Khankir chele . . . (Prostitute's son . . .) Prostitute's son, and poṣya-putra , adopted son. They are all of the same class. How this selection? Black brāhmin , white śūdra , dwarf Musselman, and prostitute's son and adopted son. Adopted son, he gets money without any earning and spends like . . . I have seen so many adopted sons. Hari-śauri: Adopted son, oh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like our . . . Haṁsadūta's wife, what is name? She has adopted a son. Hari-śauri: Oh, Himāvatī. Prabhupāda: Himāvatī. It is not like that. But generally, adopted son means spoiled son. Akṣayānanda: Spoiled. Spoiled brat. Prabhupāda: Because he gets money. Adopted . . . one who has got money but no children, he takes some adopted son. So the adopted son thinks that, "I have got so much money," and he has never worked. He is spoiled. I have seen many adopted son in our . . . got lakhs and lakhs of rupees, and in one night he's spoiled everything, simply after woman and wine. I have seen it. There was one gentleman, Narendranath Singh. Very big, palatial building and very rich man. And I have seen him when he was finished. He was friend of big, big person, Raja Maharlal. And one day I saw in Calcutta, in . . . (indistinct) . . . there was raining and he was sitting in a ricksha. And no friend. He had known practically all big men of Calcutta, friend. Nobody is coming. "Well, Narendra, you are sitting. Come on in my car." Nobody. I was . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was drenching, there was heavy rain. And sitting in a . . . and he was keeping Rolls Royce car. Akṣayānanda: Keeping? Prabhupāda: Rolls Royce car. When he was rich man. Akṣayānanda: Sometimes while traveling I've met some very old, rich men lying on their deathbed, dying. I approached them to help us. They will not give a single penny. It is all going to the son, and the son is atheist. In the house there is everywhere Kṛṣṇa's picture. Very difficult. They don't know that Kṛṣṇa is giving them a chance. They die; within days some of them can die. They are lying on the bed, passing stool and urine. So rich. But they do not care to help this movement. So many people like that. We have to become very expert. (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . forest, naked, renounced, eating fruits, but debauch number one. Markaṭa*-vairāgya. There are so many vairāgīs. Markaṭa. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said, ei 'ta kali-celā : here is a disciple of Kali. Nāke tilaka galāi mālā : but has got a tilaka on the forehead and neckbeads on the neck, but is kali-celā —number one disciple of Kali. You know this song? This is going on. Kali-celā . These persons who are committing sinful life—don't say anyone (laughs) or publish—there will be trouble. But that's a fact. Those who are living in Vṛndāvana and acting like monkey, they'll get next life a monkey, to remain in Vṛndāvana, and then next life they will be liberated. In one life all their sinful activities will be punished. Because as soon as animal life is obtained, there is no more further record of the sinful life. The animals cannot make sinful activities more than what is destined by him. But their sinful activity is not taken into account. For this man who is offered this monkey's body, he suffers the inconvenience of monkey life. So his sinful activities are counteracted, and because he came to Vṛndāvana and lived in Vṛndāvana by the mercy of Rādhārāṇī, next life he will be . . . that is the glory of Vṛndāvana-dhāma. Otherwise, what is the explanation of these dogs and hogs and monkeys in Vṛndāvana? If it is dhāma-aparādha , committing offense in dhāma . . . dhāma-aparādha . As dhāma-bhajana , if one undergoes devotional service out of Vṛndāvana and one executes devotional service in Vṛndāvana, that is hundred times better. Similarly, dhāma-aparādha also. This aparādha , when offense is committed outside Vṛndāvana, that is not so grievous as committing offense in Vṛndāvana. Dhāma-aparādha . *So the punishment is there, but the reward is also there. One life makes pardoned. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su*-samīkṣamāṇo bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam ( SB 10.14.8). Therefore a devotee in a reverse condition of life, he understands that "I am punished, little punished for my previous mischievous activities. So now I am becoming liberated." So he becomes more enthused to worship the Lord, that "You are finishing my sinful reaction of life with slight punishment. Thank you very much." This is devotee. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇaḥ . Harikeśa: The dogs and the monkeys, they feel grateful? Prabhupāda: Yes, when they come to sense they feel grateful. As dogs they cannot. As dog or monkey they cannot enhance their sinful activities. It is stopped. And whatever they do, that is not taken into account. And to suffer as dog or monkey means counteracting all previous sins. One punishment finished. Then he's fully liberated. Harikeśa: I was always wondering that if somebody's desire is to commit sinful activities . . . *Prabhupāda: No, in Kali*-yuga if you desire, it is not sinful. And act . . . Harikeśa: If they desire to commit sinful activities, and before they became monkeys, but then they were doing it then. So whilst they're monkeys their desire must change. Or is it forced, that change forced upon them by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: But if desire changes, then where is punishment? If he's repentant, then there is no punishment. Harikeśa: So before they go back to the spiritual world that desire must change. Prabhupāda: This is forceful change. Harikeśa: Forceful change. Prabhupāda: That is the advantage of Vṛndāvana bhajana . Harikeśa: That is very good. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: But not that willfully do something wrong. That is punishment. There is punishment. If one unconsciously, without any knowledge, does something wrong, that is excused. But they do willfully. They know it is wrong, still they do it. That is punished. Knowingly. Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally said, asat eka strī*-saṅgī (CC Madhya 22.87). Those who are habituated to illicit sex are punishable. Asat . It is very, very bad. And still if somebody does like that, he is punished. This is going on: "All right." Here, illicit sex . . . the bābājīs , I heard, they say, "What is the wrong there? It is love." They say like that. They take it as love. "gopīs love," they say. "gopīs used to do that, used to have illicit mixing, intermingling with Kṛṣṇa. What is wrong?" They'll say. They get support from kṛṣṇa-līlā. Such rogues they are. Sahajiyās . There are many so-called gentlemen, they write books on kṛṣṇa-līlā , paint picture. "This is very nice. Kṛṣṇa is advocating illicit intermingling." They take it as support of their sinful activities. I have seen personally, anyone who is a woman-hunter, he's being addressed by his friend, "Oh, you are like Kṛṣṇa." They take Kṛṣṇa as a man. How they will take instruction of Kṛṣṇa? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11). We are teaching people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, to become servant of Kṛṣṇa, and the so-called gentlemen, enlightened gentlemen, take Kṛṣṇa as a debauch, black debauch. (long pause) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . Vaiṣṇava religion is sex. (break) There are aborigines in India, Santal. They are called Santal. Black men, live in the forest like the African aborigines. So I asked him that "You, jungle, do you meet the tigers?" "Oh, yes, yes. Why not?" "So how do you save yourself?" So he had a small ax in his hand. So he showed me that "So long I have got this ax, even the tiger will not dare to attack me." Eta amar haate yatakshan thakbe. (As long as it's in my hand.) So after all, tiger is afraid of the ax. They are afraid of even stick. That immediately they understand, "He's superior." Actually, man is superior with some weapon. I have got personal experience. He said, "He's a big tiger. But we treat them like dogs." One ax. They keep always. Just like we keep a stick, they keep one ax. *Harikeśa: Last year they bit Upendra. Remember that? Upendra went to Sevā*-kuñja and the monkeys came and took away all of his prasādam and bit him in the leg. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Many monkeys were deported by the government, but people protested. They were capturing monkeys . . . Harikeśa: Here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Government. And selling at good price in Europe for taking their hormone. The monkey's hormones is injected or replaced so one regains his sex power. They are very sexually strong. Harikeśa: That must interfere with their monkey's spiritual life. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: That interferes with the spiritual life of the monkey? Because then he can't die in Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: It is further from them. Everything is being done by superior arrangement. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). People should learn all these things by practical example instead of becoming irresponsible and without any obedience to the superior law. They should learn it, but they have no intelligence. They think, "We are all free." Wherefrom the monkey is coming, why there are so many varieties of life, how it is . . .? What do they know? Nothing. All bluff, vague explanation, and that is going on in the name of science. This is the position. All rascals. Fortunately we have got this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā . All knowledge. First-class knowledge. (break) . . . eternally enjoyment. For him everything, ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Everything ānanda . He has no such thing that "This is harmful," "This is useful." That is Kṛṣṇa. Because nobody can do harm to Him, and neither in the spiritual world, anyone is harmful. Everyone is advanced devotee. Even the tigers, they are also devotees. Harikeśa: Tigers? Prabhupāda: Varieties are there. Hari-śauri: They have tigers and serpents and everything like that? Prabhupāda: Everything. They are all devotees. Harikeśa: There are no dogs and hogs. Prabhupāda: Yes. The hogs may be also there. Hari-śauri: Hogs are there as well? (laughs) Harikeśa: They are there. Prabhupāda: But they are not hog. Just like Kṛṣṇa appears as hog, but that doesn't mean He's hog. Kṛṣṇa appears as fish. That does not mean He's fish. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotee offers obeisances) (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . forest, naked, renounced, eating fruits, but debauch number one. Markaṭa*-vairāgya. There are so many vairāgīs. Markaṭa. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said, ei 'ta kali-celā : here is a disciple of Kali. Nāke tilaka galāi mālā : but has got a tilaka on the forehead and neckbeads on the neck, but is kali-celā —number one disciple of Kali. You know this song? This is going on. Kali-celā . These persons who are committing sinful life—don't say anyone (laughs) or publish—there will be trouble. But that's a fact. Those who are living in Vṛndāvana and acting like monkey, they'll get next life a monkey, to remain in Vṛndāvana, and then next life they will be liberated. In one life all their sinful activities will be punished. Because as soon as animal life is obtained, there is no more further record of the sinful life. The animals cannot make sinful activities more than what is destined by him. But their sinful activity is not taken into account. For this man who is offered this monkey's body, he suffers the inconvenience of monkey life. So his sinful activities are counteracted, and because he came to Vṛndāvana and lived in Vṛndāvana by the mercy of Rādhārāṇī, next life he will be . . . that is the glory of Vṛndāvana-dhāma. Otherwise, what is the explanation of these dogs and hogs and monkeys in Vṛndāvana? If it is dhāma-aparādha , committing offense in dhāma . . . dhāma-aparādha . As dhāma-bhajana , if one undergoes devotional service out of Vṛndāvana and one executes devotional service in Vṛndāvana, that is hundred times better. Similarly, dhāma-aparādha also. This aparādha , when offense is committed outside Vṛndāvana, that is not so grievous as committing offense in Vṛndāvana. Dhāma-aparādha . *So the punishment is there, but the reward is also there. One life makes pardoned. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su*-samīkṣamāṇo bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam ( SB 10.14.8). Therefore a devotee in a reverse condition of life, he understands that "I am punished, little punished for my previous mischievous activities. So now I am becoming liberated." So he becomes more enthused to worship the Lord, that "You are finishing my sinful reaction of life with slight punishment. Thank you very much." This is devotee. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇaḥ . Harikeśa: The dogs and the monkeys, they feel grateful? Prabhupāda: Yes, when they come to sense they feel grateful. As dogs they cannot. As dog or monkey they cannot enhance their sinful activities. It is stopped. And whatever they do, that is not taken into account. And to suffer as dog or monkey means counteracting all previous sins. One punishment finished. Then he's fully liberated. Harikeśa: I was always wondering that if somebody's desire is to commit sinful activities . . . *Prabhupāda: No, in Kali*-yuga if you desire, it is not sinful. And act . . . Harikeśa: If they desire to commit sinful activities, and before they became monkeys, but then they were doing it then. So whilst they're monkeys their desire must change. Or is it forced, that change forced upon them by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: But if desire changes, then where is punishment? If he's repentant, then there is no punishment. Harikeśa: So before they go back to the spiritual world that desire must change. Prabhupāda: This is forceful change. Harikeśa: Forceful change. Prabhupāda: That is the advantage of Vṛndāvana bhajana . Harikeśa: That is very good. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: But not that willfully do something wrong. That is punishment. There is punishment. If one unconsciously, without any knowledge, does something wrong, that is excused. But they do willfully. They know it is wrong, still they do it. That is punished. Knowingly. Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally said, asat eka strī*-saṅgī (CC Madhya 22.87). Those who are habituated to illicit sex are punishable. Asat . It is very, very bad. And still if somebody does like that, he is punished. This is going on: "All right." Here, illicit sex . . . the bābājīs , I heard, they say, "What is the wrong there? It is love." They say like that. They take it as love. "gopīs love," they say. "gopīs used to do that, used to have illicit mixing, intermingling with Kṛṣṇa. What is wrong?" They'll say. They get support from kṛṣṇa-līlā. Such rogues they are. Sahajiyās . There are many so-called gentlemen, they write books on kṛṣṇa-līlā , paint picture. "This is very nice. Kṛṣṇa is advocating illicit intermingling." They take it as support of their sinful activities. I have seen personally, anyone who is a woman-hunter, he's being addressed by his friend, "Oh, you are like Kṛṣṇa." They take Kṛṣṇa as a man. How they will take instruction of Kṛṣṇa? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11). We are teaching people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, to become servant of Kṛṣṇa, and the so-called gentlemen, enlightened gentlemen, take Kṛṣṇa as a debauch, black debauch. (long pause) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . Vaiṣṇava religion is sex. (break) There are aborigines in India, Santal. They are called Santal. Black men, live in the forest like the African aborigines. So I asked him that "You, jungle, do you meet the tigers?" "Oh, yes, yes. Why not?" "So how do you save yourself?" So he had a small ax in his hand. So he showed me that "So long I have got this ax, even the tiger will not dare to attack me." Eta amar haate yatakshan thakbe. (As long as it's in my hand.) So after all, tiger is afraid of the ax. They are afraid of even stick. That immediately they understand, "He's superior." Actually, man is superior with some weapon. I have got personal experience. He said, "He's a big tiger. But we treat them like dogs." One ax. They keep always. Just like we keep a stick, they keep one ax. *Harikeśa: Last year they bit Upendra. Remember that? Upendra went to Sevā*-kuñja and the monkeys came and took away all of his prasādam and bit him in the leg. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Many monkeys were deported by the government, but people protested. They were capturing monkeys . . . Harikeśa: Here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Government. And selling at good price in Europe for taking their hormone. The monkey's hormones is injected or replaced so one regains his sex power. They are very sexually strong. Harikeśa: That must interfere with their monkey's spiritual life. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: That interferes with the spiritual life of the monkey? Because then he can't die in Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: It is further from them. Everything is being done by superior arrangement. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). People should learn all these things by practical example instead of becoming irresponsible and without any obedience to the superior law. They should learn it, but they have no intelligence. They think, "We are all free." Wherefrom the monkey is coming, why there are so many varieties of life, how it is . . .? What do they know? Nothing. All bluff, vague explanation, and that is going on in the name of science. This is the position. All rascals. Fortunately we have got this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā . All knowledge. First-class knowledge. (break) . . . eternally enjoyment. For him everything, ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Everything ānanda . He has no such thing that "This is harmful," "This is useful." That is Kṛṣṇa. Because nobody can do harm to Him, and neither in the spiritual world, anyone is harmful. Everyone is advanced devotee. Even the tigers, they are also devotees. Harikeśa: Tigers? Prabhupāda: Varieties are there. Hari-śauri: They have tigers and serpents and everything like that? Prabhupāda: Everything. They are all devotees. Harikeśa: There are no dogs and hogs. Prabhupāda: Yes. The hogs may be also there. Hari-śauri: Hogs are there as well? (laughs) Harikeśa: They are there. Prabhupāda: But they are not hog. Just like Kṛṣṇa appears as hog, but that doesn't mean He's hog. Kṛṣṇa appears as fish. That does not mean He's fish. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotee offers obeisances) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . because as soon as the ship stopped, Commonwealth Pier, Boston, the Immigration Department came and took their papers. So I entered America in Boston. There was no checking in New York. The ship stopped in Boston. The official entrance was done there. Then when I came to New York, it is just like one day's travel. Harikeśa: No, that's not very far. And then you went to Pennsylvania. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: And then you went directly to Pennsylvania? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: By bus? Prabhupāda: Yes. Then one agent appointed by my host, Gopal Agarwal . . . he was in Butler. So he arranged with some professional, what is called, host. Harikeśa: Travel agent? Prabhupāda: Maybe travel agent. He came to see me that, "I am sent by Gopal Agarwal, so I'll arrange for your dispatch. You come with me." Hari-śauri: Dr. Agarwal was your sponsor? Prabhupāda: Yes, sponsor. His father came to see me sometime in Agra. Hari-śauri: In India. Prabhupāda: Agra. His father, mother came. Hari-śauri: And then they suggested that he be your sponsor. *Prabhupāda: It was all by chance. I was for a few days guest at his father's place in Agra. I did not know that his son is in America. So he was talking about his family. He was little sorry that his eldest son went to America to study electric engineering, and he was entrapped by an English girl there, and he married and settled there and did not come back. In this way . . . so I took the opportunity that, "Why don't you ask your son to sponsor me?" I wanted to go to America. So I did not know how seriously he took it. But I simply told him that, "Why don't you ask your son to sponsor me at least for one month? So I am thinking of going to America." Then that was talking, beginning and end, that's all. I did not know that he took it very seriously. Then after two, three months, some documents came. I was receiving my letters in a postbox. So when I left Delhi I used to keep my key of postbox with some nice bookseller, Atmaram, he was manager. So he opened that, he got that documents. That is No*-Objection Certificate, sponsor, and everything. I was out of Delhi. Then when I came back I took it. So everything was there, that sheet . . . (indistinct) . . . taken from the Indian Consulate, No-Objection Certificate and everything. Then I applied for a passport. In this way I had to go there. So Gopal was unknown to me, but his father was . . . his father was known to me, mother was known to me. Then his agent got me on the bus. So on the bus went to Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania? Hari-śauri: That's a long drive. Prabhupāda: Yes, nine hours on the bus. And I took a little chipped rice, (laughs) and whatever I had with me. So I got down from the ship about one o'clock. Then I had to wait for the bus till five o'clock. Then at five o'clock the bus started. About two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning, I went to Pennsylvania, and just in front of the bus Gopal was standing with his car, that . . . what is called? Van car? Harikeśa: Stationwagon. Prabhupāda: Stationwagon. So he took my luggage, and from there thirty miles off, the Butler County. So I went there. Then at night he took my bedding and . . . the next day, he had no many rooms in his apartment, he arranged for my stay in the YMCA nearby them. Hari-śauri: You never actually stayed with him, then. Prabhupāda: I was going. I was taking my meals there. Hari-śauri: Oh. And just keeping a room at the YMCA. Prabhupāda: Because he had no room, so I was staying there. Hari-śauri: And then he arranged programs, speaking programs, or . . .? Prabhupāda: His wife, Sally. His wife, Sally, she was arranging. A very intelligent girl. They were of the same age, about thirty. Gopal was more than thirty and she was about thirty . . . (indistinct) . . . I saw that she was feeding her child, one boy, meat powder. Harikeśa: Beef bouillion? Prabhupāda: I do know what is the name. But I asked. She said: "It is meat powder." That is the system? Hari-śauri: Yeah. When they're very young and they can't eat solids. Prabhupāda: With hot water. Hari-śauri: Yes, they have instant meals for children. All different kinds of things. Prabhupāda: So Gopal was very much pleased that he could get some Indian cāpāṭis , like this. Hari-śauri: So he had you cook for him. You took your cooker with you? Is that the same one? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: A different one then. *Prabhupāda: So I lived with him for twenty*-one days. Then I came to New York. *Hari-śauri: Yes, that picture in the Butler Eagle , it's in the Vyāsa*-Pūjā book this year. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Butler County, it is good county. There were many churches. That pleased me, that people have got so many churches, they're religious. (break) . . . some time, that one piece of wire lying in one place, one piece of bamboo was lying in another place, and one dry shell of a squash was lying there. So one intelligent man collected this. So this dry shell became the tambura's . . . what is called? Hari-śauri: I don't know. Like sound chamber. What do you call it? Like on a tambura. *Prabhupāda: Sound chamber maybe called. So with that dry squash he made the sound chamber. The bamboo he fixed up, and the wire upon it, and then it became a " tin*-tin-tin-tin . . ." (laughs) Our organization is like that. I was loitering in the street. Somebody was over there, somebody was there, not combined together. International Society String Band. Yes. Separately we are all useless. Eh? Hari-śauri: No, we were useless. You were never useless. *Prabhupāda: No, your assistance was required. How you can be useless? We're all useless. But combined together, now we have become a stringed instrument. This is very good example. Separately . . . just like the same logic, andha*-khañja. Separately, andha is useless, and khañja is useless. Blind and lame. They cannot do anything. But combined together, they become useful. Then? Hari-śauri: Would you like to reply? Or is it just recorded? Prabhupāda: I shall reply. You find them if they are coming. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Harikeśa: There's a . . . it's a very . . . (break) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . because as soon as the ship stopped, Commonwealth Pier, Boston, the Immigration Department came and took their papers. So I entered America in Boston. There was no checking in New York. The ship stopped in Boston. The official entrance was done there. Then when I came to New York, it is just like one day's travel. Harikeśa: No, that's not very far. And then you went to Pennsylvania. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: And then you went directly to Pennsylvania? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: By bus? Prabhupāda: Yes. Then one agent appointed by my host, Gopal Agarwal . . . he was in Butler. So he arranged with some professional, what is called, host. Harikeśa: Travel agent? Prabhupāda: Maybe travel agent. He came to see me that, "I am sent by Gopal Agarwal, so I'll arrange for your dispatch. You come with me." Hari-śauri: Dr. Agarwal was your sponsor? Prabhupāda: Yes, sponsor. His father came to see me sometime in Agra. Hari-śauri: In India. Prabhupāda: Agra. His father, mother came. Hari-śauri: And then they suggested that he be your sponsor. *Prabhupāda: It was all by chance. I was for a few days guest at his father's place in Agra. I did not know that his son is in America. So he was talking about his family. He was little sorry that his eldest son went to America to study electric engineering, and he was entrapped by an English girl there, and he married and settled there and did not come back. In this way . . . so I took the opportunity that, "Why don't you ask your son to sponsor me?" I wanted to go to America. So I did not know how seriously he took it. But I simply told him that, "Why don't you ask your son to sponsor me at least for one month? So I am thinking of going to America." Then that was talking, beginning and end, that's all. I did not know that he took it very seriously. Then after two, three months, some documents came. I was receiving my letters in a postbox. So when I left Delhi I used to keep my key of postbox with some nice bookseller, Atmaram, he was manager. So he opened that, he got that documents. That is No*-Objection Certificate, sponsor, and everything. I was out of Delhi. Then when I came back I took it. So everything was there, that sheet . . . (indistinct) . . . taken from the Indian Consulate, No-Objection Certificate and everything. Then I applied for a passport. In this way I had to go there. So Gopal was unknown to me, but his father was . . . his father was known to me, mother was known to me. Then his agent got me on the bus. So on the bus went to Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania? Hari-śauri: That's a long drive. Prabhupāda: Yes, nine hours on the bus. And I took a little chipped rice, (laughs) and whatever I had with me. So I got down from the ship about one o'clock. Then I had to wait for the bus till five o'clock. Then at five o'clock the bus started. About two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning, I went to Pennsylvania, and just in front of the bus Gopal was standing with his car, that . . . what is called? Van car? Harikeśa: Stationwagon. Prabhupāda: Stationwagon. So he took my luggage, and from there thirty miles off, the Butler County. So I went there. Then at night he took my bedding and . . . the next day, he had no many rooms in his apartment, he arranged for my stay in the YMCA nearby them. Hari-śauri: You never actually stayed with him, then. Prabhupāda: I was going. I was taking my meals there. Hari-śauri: Oh. And just keeping a room at the YMCA. Prabhupāda: Because he had no room, so I was staying there. Hari-śauri: And then he arranged programs, speaking programs, or . . .? Prabhupāda: His wife, Sally. His wife, Sally, she was arranging. A very intelligent girl. They were of the same age, about thirty. Gopal was more than thirty and she was about thirty . . . (indistinct) . . . I saw that she was feeding her child, one boy, meat powder. Harikeśa: Beef bouillion? Prabhupāda: I do know what is the name. But I asked. She said: "It is meat powder." That is the system? Hari-śauri: Yeah. When they're very young and they can't eat solids. Prabhupāda: With hot water. Hari-śauri: Yes, they have instant meals for children. All different kinds of things. Prabhupāda: So Gopal was very much pleased that he could get some Indian cāpāṭis , like this. Hari-śauri: So he had you cook for him. You took your cooker with you? Is that the same one? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: A different one then. *Prabhupāda: So I lived with him for twenty*-one days. Then I came to New York. *Hari-śauri: Yes, that picture in the Butler Eagle , it's in the Vyāsa*-Pūjā book this year. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Butler County, it is good county. There were many churches. That pleased me, that people have got so many churches, they're religious. (break) . . . some time, that one piece of wire lying in one place, one piece of bamboo was lying in another place, and one dry shell of a squash was lying there. So one intelligent man collected this. So this dry shell became the tambura's . . . what is called? Hari-śauri: I don't know. Like sound chamber. What do you call it? Like on a tambura. *Prabhupāda: Sound chamber maybe called. So with that dry squash he made the sound chamber. The bamboo he fixed up, and the wire upon it, and then it became a " tin*-tin-tin-tin . . ." (laughs) Our organization is like that. I was loitering in the street. Somebody was over there, somebody was there, not combined together. International Society String Band. Yes. Separately we are all useless. Eh? Hari-śauri: No, we were useless. You were never useless. *Prabhupāda: No, your assistance was required. How you can be useless? We're all useless. But combined together, now we have become a stringed instrument. This is very good example. Separately . . . just like the same logic, andha*-khañja. Separately, andha is useless, and khañja is useless. Blind and lame. They cannot do anything. But combined together, they become useful. Then? Hari-śauri: Would you like to reply? Or is it just recorded? Prabhupāda: I shall reply. You find them if they are coming. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Harikeśa: There's a . . . it's a very . . . (break) (end) Saurabha: . . . in Bombay. Prabhupāda: So first of all finish your construction. Then you go to . . . (indistinct) Saurabha: No, but I mean they are carving the wood and everything, the shape of the . . . Prabhupāda: Now, we shall bring priests from Hyderabad. Saurabha: Ah. That is the technical thing. But I was speaking regarding the construction, because I want to know whether you want to have the (break) bathing ceremony only taking place on the opening day, or also later on the facility can . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Saurabha: Only that day. Prabhupāda: Only that day. Saurabha: Then is it necessary to make this special arrangement that this . . . because I think that they . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. The small Deities, śālagrāma , They are worshiped. And big Deity, They are decorated nicely. No need of washing. Saurabha: So only the opening ceremony. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Nitāi had them bathe the big Deities here, Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, on Janmāṣṭamī. *Dhanañjaya: And on Balarāma's appearance day, the big Deities were bathed. Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. Harikeśa: Terrible speculation. Dhanañjaya: Actually, Janmāṣṭamī celebrations were very bad, and it's very . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore the color has faded? He is a rascal. Harikeśa: I remember that when these Deities . . . they're never to be washed. Never water was to touch. Supposed to put a plastic bag over the Deity. That was . . . if you have to use the big Deities, you're supposed to cover Them with plastic. Prabhupāda: Why did you allow? Just see, this is the disease. Rascals, they do not know. And although I was . . . Dhanañjaya: No, but everyone was listening to him. He was posing himself as the most learned in Deity worship. Prabhupāda: That he's fond of. *Dhanañjaya: He was introducing Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa . *Harikeśa: But it doesn't say in Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa that you bathe in water marble Deities. It says you're supposed to have a smaller set for bathing. That's in Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. Dhanañjaya: His idea was that we would become the most famous temple for bathing big Deities in Vṛndāvana. This was his idea. Prabhupāda: That bathing is not done on the siṁhāsana . The Deity is taken out. Then it is done. But that is very risky. You cannot do it. Dhanañjaya: And besides that, the bathing was done by devotees who are not experienced in Deity worship. Prabhupāda: Don't allow him. This botheration he has gone. He is simply posing himself very learned Sanskrit scholar, above everything. That is his ambition. Saurabha: And on the opening day the Deities will be on the altar, or They will be in front when They're bathed? When the bathing is taking place in Bombay for the opening, then They'll . . . Prabhupāda: That the priest will arrange, who will come from . . . Saurabha: Yes. But They will be on the altar or They will be in front? Prabhupāda: No. In the front They are left. Saurabha: So not on the altar. Prabhupāda: No. But if it is risky, you should not do. Big Deity . . . we have got big Deity, huh? *Harikeśa: Yes, very heavy. They are very heavy, Rādhā*-Rāsabihārī. Prabhupāda: What they do in Hyderabad? Harikeśa: Hyderabad the Deity was already installed. There was no need for bathing, so they didn't do it. Prabhupāda: Other Deities? *Dhanañjaya: Here, just like here for the opening prāṇa*-pratiṣṭhā . Harikeśa: Yes, they bathed the small Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Anyway, we should not take risk at any rate. *Harikeśa: Rādhā*-Rāsabihārī, also, when They came from Akash-Ganga there was a disturbance with Them also. Rādhā has a tendency to crack on the arm. Her left arm cracks. Prabhupāda: Where? Harikeśa: Slightly. There was a very weak . . . it was very weak. Very weak. I remember 'cause they had to move three times. I was there when all the times when They were moved. Prabhupāda: In Bombay. Harikeśa: In Bombay. And every time they were very upset because of this left arm. *Prabhupāda: This risk should not be taken at any gain. Never mind Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa , this- vilāsa - no risk. You must always know - no risk. That is the first point. Then we consult Hari-bhakti-vilāsa and all this . . . nobody can give reference to Hari-bhakti-vilāsa at risk. No. Not at all. So? Anything more? Dhanañjaya: Can I ask one question? You were mentioning that you wanted to start local industries, casting Deities. Prabhupāda: Yes, we can purchase . . . we can . . . Dhanañjaya: Purchase raw materials? Prabhupāda: So, everything is all right now? Devotee: Yes. Dhanañjaya: So I was wondering . . . Prabhupāda: Can you come, there . . . (break) Hari-śauri: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There are, what is called, Deity makers here? Dhanañjaya: Well, most of the Deities, they are cast in Aligarh. Prabhupāda: Aligarh? Oh. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Then they're brought here, and there is . . . craftsmen, they finish. They polish, then they add . . . Prabhupāda: So who is from Aligarh? You go to . . . we have got a best friend in Aligarh. Dhanañjaya: Surendra Kumar. Surendra Kumar. Prabhupāda: Ah. He'll get you all those things. Hari-śauri: He should know everything about that, because he's making lots. Prabhupāda: And another . . . Aligarh is the best place. (aside) What is that? Akṣaya: It's the gentleman who was with you last night, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Prem Yogi. He has come with his luggage. Prabhupāda: Prem Yogi. So give him that place vacated by the old man. Hari-śauri: Next to Akṣayānanda's room. Seventeen. Take him up there. *Harikeśa: Actually you can just bring him to Bhakti*-pradhāna and tell him. Bhakti-pradhāna is the manager of the guesthouse, so he should take care of it. Prabhupāda: No, this old man has gone. So give him that place. Yes. Akṣaya: I believe there are two men. Prabhupāda: Two men, that's all right. Yes. Akṣaya: Thank you. Prabhupāda: So, you just officially receive them. He's got M.A., Ph.D. Good man. This is etiquette. Dhanañjaya: So, what I wanted to know was that, ah, you wanted . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Develop that business and give engagement. The women can live here for sewing. They must be comfortably situated. If they are feeling, women, they cannot feel very bad and stay. We do not want that. So they can live here in a room and work sewing. And our women who has learned, they can teach. Very simple thing. That's all. And men must be engaged there for finishing. And if at Aligarh they are, what is called . . .? Dhanañjaya: Casting. Prabhupāda: . . . casting, then there is no difference. And there is no difficulty. Dhanañjaya: So the Deity should be cast in Aligarh and then finished here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: Just like we are doing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Aligarh is from here 45 miles away. You can go and bring them, and Surendranath will help you. If there are expert men in Aligarh, that will be very nice. A different size Deity, you get there. Dhanañjaya: Six inches, nine inches, twelve, fifteen. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And nice Gaura*-Nitāi and Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. And they'll prepare nice dress and pack in a box and send to our different centers. There are hundred centers. If you can dispatch at least one dozen pairs, you can make business for twelve hundred pairs. It will be very big business. And if they are displayed, people will like to purchase. It will be very good business. Dhanañjaya: Even here. For people coming to our temple, if we have display they will purchase. Prabhupāda: Yes. We can have our shop here. We are getting so many shops. So one shop Deity and Deity clothes and mukuṭas . Just like they have got . . . Dhanañjaya: In Loi Bazaar. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: The same. Harikeśa: One shop sweets. *Prabhupāda: Apply business brain. Everything I'll have to tell you. You can . . . anyone who has got business brain, he can earn any amount of money. That is the . . . these are all . . . incense, Deity, and then mukuṭa , then tulasī*-mālā , then karatālas, manjiras , some pañcapātrā . In this way. Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This man brought his friend. That room is not big enough for three. So they will have to take another room for two. Prabhupāda: Friend? Harikeśa: His friend. Dhanañjaya: One friend has come with him. Harikeśa: That same person from last night, the one wearing white? Prabhupāda: Ah. So the three men cannot live there? Harikeśa: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Harikeśa: It's too small. Prabhupāda: No, no. Not so. First of all, give them, then we shall see later on. Why immediately want facilities? Or he can . . . the other man can go with the brahmacārīs . Harikeśa: The younger one. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes, somebody may go to the brahmacārīs . Just now make them accommodated there, then we shall see what to do. That "First of all you stay here, then we shall see what is convenient to you then." Harikeśa: Because they're in an awful small room. If I put three in that room, that one man who's already there may become upset. Prabhupāda: He has already gone there? Harikeśa: No, I mean, I know. I've been there. But that one man who's there now . . . Prabhupāda: So four men cannot live in that room? Harikeśa: Three men not possible. Because they've got two beds in there. Two of these big, huge . . . Prabhupāda: At least you provide them two men there and one man with brahmacārīs . That's all. Not that we can spare so many rooms. Harikeśa: If I ask that man who's already there to go to the brahmacārīs , he may become offended. Prabhupāda: Yes, you do that. He can go to the brahmacārīs . That's all. Hari-śauri: You can give him one of those sannyāsī rooms in the brahmacārīs . Harikeśa: All right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Arrange everything. But don't turn this, and very easily give the other guest room. Then it will be awkward like anything. Very cautiously. So this is the program I am giving, and if you can give some practical sense, it will be very nice, profitable business. Dhanañjaya: Yes. But it will require some capital in the beginning. Prabhupāda: So capital required, we can give. There is no scarcity of capital. But it must be consulted between three—Gopāla, Viśvambhara and yourself. And then if capital is required, how capital you will repay, make them assured. I shall give you. There is no difficulty. Capital you will have, provided you can make profit. Not that we give capital and then never return. That will not be possible. Take any amount of capital, but we must be paid interest as bank gives loan. I can say bank will give you. If I order the bank, bank will give you. So capital there is no question. The question is how you shall utilize it, how you shall make profit. Capital, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, you can take lakhs and lakhs . That I can arrange. The bank, if I say to the bank they will have to give you, or I shall personally give you. There is no question of capital scarcity. So only thing is how will you utilize this capital and how you will make profit. That's all. You make that program. So far capital is concerned, there is no concern. You'll get any amount of capital if you can develop the business. Now we have got credit in the bank, any bank will give you if I say yes. There will be no scarcity of capital. Prabhupāda: In Aligarh he has got so many friends. (Bhagatjī laughs) Aligarh we have got many friends. Bhagatjī: Half of my life was spent in Aligarh. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Aligarh is maternal uncle's house. So many relatives. So Aligarh, if the Deities are manufactured there, so there is no difficulty. Bhagatjī: No problem. If we get money . . . Prabhupāda: He'll arrange money. Money I shall bring . . . (indistinct) . . . money, we shall bring any amount of money, provided I am sure that you will make some profit. There is no scarcity. Bhagatjī: Prabhupāda, I was sick last night very much. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Bhagatjī: So I could not come to you. Prabhupāda: Last night you did not come? Bhagatjī: I came to see only to have your darśana , but I was in fever so much. Prabhupāda: Oh. So capital you'll get, rest assured. Anyone will give. He will give, or I will give, the bank will give. That is . . . but you must utilize it properly. Bhagatjī: You understand how to utilize? Dhanañjaya: Yes, I understand. Prabhupāda: There is no scarcity. Dhanañjaya: Utilize means return. Bhagatjī: Return means to utilize it properly. Prabhupāda: No, return also gradually, not at a time. Because if you take five thousand rupees, pay at the rate of five hundred rupees. Bhagatjī: Junior Sorcar jo magician hai world ke sabse bade, woh darshan karne ke liye aapke yahan aaye hain. Wahan se woh Ghaziabad jaa rahe hain abhi. Woh aapke darshan ke liye bahut zyada . . . (Junior Sorcar who is the world's biggest magician is here to meet you. He is leaving for Ghaziabad after that. He is very eager to meet you . . .) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . is concerned, that is our home, Aligarh. Bhagatjī: Aligarh. Prabhupāda: Money is concerned, you'll get any amount. Now organize and . . . (indistinct) Dhanañjaya: Now, another thing I wanted to ask. Many devotees were asking me if we could make a deity of Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: That is not very . . . well . . . that is not immediate. We shall see later on. You can make. That we shall see later on. Not immediately. Immediately you make this arrangement. *Dhanañjaya: And for design of Gaura*-Nitāi and Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, we should just use the same design, or we should make better? Prabhupāda: Make a hand design like that, and have your people make like that. Make a nice . . . Dhanañjaya: Make, yes. I mean, better design. Prabhupāda: Yes, make a better design. And the hand will be like this. (Prabhupāda raises his arms above his head, and stretches his palms open with his fingers pointing outwards) Dhanañjaya: Not like this. I like this myself. It's Navadvīpa style. Prabhupāda: This is Navadvīpa style. Dhanañjaya: Yes, I like this much better. Otherwise the arms are too long and thin. *Prabhupāda: No. In this way make a nice design Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. And Rādhārāṇī should be like this. (demonstrates Rādhārāṇī's right hand raised above waist-level, Her palm upwards and the thumb joined to the tip of Her index finger) This is Vṛndāvana style. Not this. This is Lakṣmī style. This. Make these arrangements. I am hopeful of this business. Very good business we'll have. I want to introduce in every family. They'll do it. If they do not worship, let them keep as dolls. That will also give them inspiration. Dhanañjaya: Actually, so many Indians in the West, they're keeping just like dolls. They are not worshiping regularly. They're keeping on the mantelpiece or on the side. Prabhupāda: In this way be encouraged, and in full capacity do business and get others. Dhanañjaya: There was one boy who just came from Italy, and he's expert in wood carving. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Dhanañjaya: So we can take artists for wooden siṁhāsanas . Siṁhāsanas he said he can make. He even brought his tools. He has a whole box of tools he brought just for carving, and he studied in the south of Spain, religious architecture. Prabhupāda: He can make a small siṁhāsana for the Deities, collapsible, so that if anyone wants, he can dispatch them. (end) Saurabha: . . . in Bombay. Prabhupāda: So first of all finish your construction. Then you go to . . . (indistinct) Saurabha: No, but I mean they are carving the wood and everything, the shape of the . . . Prabhupāda: Now, we shall bring priests from Hyderabad. Saurabha: Ah. That is the technical thing. But I was speaking regarding the construction, because I want to know whether you want to have the (break) bathing ceremony only taking place on the opening day, or also later on the facility can . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Saurabha: Only that day. Prabhupāda: Only that day. Saurabha: Then is it necessary to make this special arrangement that this . . . because I think that they . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. The small Deities, śālagrāma , They are worshiped. And big Deity, They are decorated nicely. No need of washing. Saurabha: So only the opening ceremony. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Nitāi had them bathe the big Deities here, Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, on Janmāṣṭamī. *Dhanañjaya: And on Balarāma's appearance day, the big Deities were bathed. Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. Harikeśa: Terrible speculation. Dhanañjaya: Actually, Janmāṣṭamī celebrations were very bad, and it's very . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore the color has faded? He is a rascal. Harikeśa: I remember that when these Deities . . . they're never to be washed. Never water was to touch. Supposed to put a plastic bag over the Deity. That was . . . if you have to use the big Deities, you're supposed to cover Them with plastic. Prabhupāda: Why did you allow? Just see, this is the disease. Rascals, they do not know. And although I was . . . Dhanañjaya: No, but everyone was listening to him. He was posing himself as the most learned in Deity worship. Prabhupāda: That he's fond of. *Dhanañjaya: He was introducing Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa . *Harikeśa: But it doesn't say in Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa that you bathe in water marble Deities. It says you're supposed to have a smaller set for bathing. That's in Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. Dhanañjaya: His idea was that we would become the most famous temple for bathing big Deities in Vṛndāvana. This was his idea. Prabhupāda: That bathing is not done on the siṁhāsana . The Deity is taken out. Then it is done. But that is very risky. You cannot do it. Dhanañjaya: And besides that, the bathing was done by devotees who are not experienced in Deity worship. Prabhupāda: Don't allow him. This botheration he has gone. He is simply posing himself very learned Sanskrit scholar, above everything. That is his ambition. Saurabha: And on the opening day the Deities will be on the altar, or They will be in front when They're bathed? When the bathing is taking place in Bombay for the opening, then They'll . . . Prabhupāda: That the priest will arrange, who will come from . . . Saurabha: Yes. But They will be on the altar or They will be in front? Prabhupāda: No. In the front They are left. Saurabha: So not on the altar. Prabhupāda: No. But if it is risky, you should not do. Big Deity . . . we have got big Deity, huh? *Harikeśa: Yes, very heavy. They are very heavy, Rādhā*-Rāsabihārī. Prabhupāda: What they do in Hyderabad? Harikeśa: Hyderabad the Deity was already installed. There was no need for bathing, so they didn't do it. Prabhupāda: Other Deities? *Dhanañjaya: Here, just like here for the opening prāṇa*-pratiṣṭhā . Harikeśa: Yes, they bathed the small Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Anyway, we should not take risk at any rate. *Harikeśa: Rādhā*-Rāsabihārī, also, when They came from Akash-Ganga there was a disturbance with Them also. Rādhā has a tendency to crack on the arm. Her left arm cracks. Prabhupāda: Where? Harikeśa: Slightly. There was a very weak . . . it was very weak. Very weak. I remember 'cause they had to move three times. I was there when all the times when They were moved. Prabhupāda: In Bombay. Harikeśa: In Bombay. And every time they were very upset because of this left arm. *Prabhupāda: This risk should not be taken at any gain. Never mind Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa , this- vilāsa - no risk. You must always know - no risk. That is the first point. Then we consult Hari-bhakti-vilāsa and all this . . . nobody can give reference to Hari-bhakti-vilāsa at risk. No. Not at all. So? Anything more? Dhanañjaya: Can I ask one question? You were mentioning that you wanted to start local industries, casting Deities. Prabhupāda: Yes, we can purchase . . . we can . . . Dhanañjaya: Purchase raw materials? Prabhupāda: So, everything is all right now? Devotee: Yes. Dhanañjaya: So I was wondering . . . Prabhupāda: Can you come, there . . . (break) Hari-śauri: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There are, what is called, Deity makers here? Dhanañjaya: Well, most of the Deities, they are cast in Aligarh. Prabhupāda: Aligarh? Oh. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Then they're brought here, and there is . . . craftsmen, they finish. They polish, then they add . . . Prabhupāda: So who is from Aligarh? You go to . . . we have got a best friend in Aligarh. Dhanañjaya: Surendra Kumar. Surendra Kumar. Prabhupāda: Ah. He'll get you all those things. Hari-śauri: He should know everything about that, because he's making lots. Prabhupāda: And another . . . Aligarh is the best place. (aside) What is that? Akṣaya: It's the gentleman who was with you last night, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Prem Yogi. He has come with his luggage. Prabhupāda: Prem Yogi. So give him that place vacated by the old man. Hari-śauri: Next to Akṣayānanda's room. Seventeen. Take him up there. *Harikeśa: Actually you can just bring him to Bhakti*-pradhāna and tell him. Bhakti-pradhāna is the manager of the guesthouse, so he should take care of it. Prabhupāda: No, this old man has gone. So give him that place. Yes. Akṣaya: I believe there are two men. Prabhupāda: Two men, that's all right. Yes. Akṣaya: Thank you. Prabhupāda: So, you just officially receive them. He's got M.A., Ph.D. Good man. This is etiquette. Dhanañjaya: So, what I wanted to know was that, ah, you wanted . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Develop that business and give engagement. The women can live here for sewing. They must be comfortably situated. If they are feeling, women, they cannot feel very bad and stay. We do not want that. So they can live here in a room and work sewing. And our women who has learned, they can teach. Very simple thing. That's all. And men must be engaged there for finishing. And if at Aligarh they are, what is called . . .? Dhanañjaya: Casting. Prabhupāda: . . . casting, then there is no difference. And there is no difficulty. Dhanañjaya: So the Deity should be cast in Aligarh and then finished here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: Just like we are doing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Aligarh is from here 45 miles away. You can go and bring them, and Surendranath will help you. If there are expert men in Aligarh, that will be very nice. A different size Deity, you get there. Dhanañjaya: Six inches, nine inches, twelve, fifteen. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And nice Gaura*-Nitāi and Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. And they'll prepare nice dress and pack in a box and send to our different centers. There are hundred centers. If you can dispatch at least one dozen pairs, you can make business for twelve hundred pairs. It will be very big business. And if they are displayed, people will like to purchase. It will be very good business. Dhanañjaya: Even here. For people coming to our temple, if we have display they will purchase. Prabhupāda: Yes. We can have our shop here. We are getting so many shops. So one shop Deity and Deity clothes and mukuṭas . Just like they have got . . . Dhanañjaya: In Loi Bazaar. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: The same. Harikeśa: One shop sweets. *Prabhupāda: Apply business brain. Everything I'll have to tell you. You can . . . anyone who has got business brain, he can earn any amount of money. That is the . . . these are all . . . incense, Deity, and then mukuṭa , then tulasī*-mālā , then karatālas, manjiras , some pañcapātrā . In this way. Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This man brought his friend. That room is not big enough for three. So they will have to take another room for two. Prabhupāda: Friend? Harikeśa: His friend. Dhanañjaya: One friend has come with him. Harikeśa: That same person from last night, the one wearing white? Prabhupāda: Ah. So the three men cannot live there? Harikeśa: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Harikeśa: It's too small. Prabhupāda: No, no. Not so. First of all, give them, then we shall see later on. Why immediately want facilities? Or he can . . . the other man can go with the brahmacārīs . Harikeśa: The younger one. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes, somebody may go to the brahmacārīs . Just now make them accommodated there, then we shall see what to do. That "First of all you stay here, then we shall see what is convenient to you then." Harikeśa: Because they're in an awful small room. If I put three in that room, that one man who's already there may become upset. Prabhupāda: He has already gone there? Harikeśa: No, I mean, I know. I've been there. But that one man who's there now . . . Prabhupāda: So four men cannot live in that room? Harikeśa: Three men not possible. Because they've got two beds in there. Two of these big, huge . . . Prabhupāda: At least you provide them two men there and one man with brahmacārīs . That's all. Not that we can spare so many rooms. Harikeśa: If I ask that man who's already there to go to the brahmacārīs , he may become offended. Prabhupāda: Yes, you do that. He can go to the brahmacārīs . That's all. Hari-śauri: You can give him one of those sannyāsī rooms in the brahmacārīs . Harikeśa: All right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Arrange everything. But don't turn this, and very easily give the other guest room. Then it will be awkward like anything. Very cautiously. So this is the program I am giving, and if you can give some practical sense, it will be very nice, profitable business. Dhanañjaya: Yes. But it will require some capital in the beginning. Prabhupāda: So capital required, we can give. There is no scarcity of capital. But it must be consulted between three—Gopāla, Viśvambhara and yourself. And then if capital is required, how capital you will repay, make them assured. I shall give you. There is no difficulty. Capital you will have, provided you can make profit. Not that we give capital and then never return. That will not be possible. Take any amount of capital, but we must be paid interest as bank gives loan. I can say bank will give you. If I order the bank, bank will give you. So capital there is no question. The question is how you shall utilize it, how you shall make profit. Capital, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, you can take lakhs and lakhs . That I can arrange. The bank, if I say to the bank they will have to give you, or I shall personally give you. There is no question of capital scarcity. So only thing is how will you utilize this capital and how you will make profit. That's all. You make that program. So far capital is concerned, there is no concern. You'll get any amount of capital if you can develop the business. Now we have got credit in the bank, any bank will give you if I say yes. There will be no scarcity of capital. Prabhupāda: In Aligarh he has got so many friends. (Bhagatjī laughs) Aligarh we have got many friends. Bhagatjī: Half of my life was spent in Aligarh. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Aligarh is maternal uncle's house. So many relatives. So Aligarh, if the Deities are manufactured there, so there is no difficulty. Bhagatjī: No problem. If we get money . . . Prabhupāda: He'll arrange money. Money I shall bring . . . (indistinct) . . . money, we shall bring any amount of money, provided I am sure that you will make some profit. There is no scarcity. Bhagatjī: Prabhupāda, I was sick last night very much. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Bhagatjī: So I could not come to you. Prabhupāda: Last night you did not come? Bhagatjī: I came to see only to have your darśana , but I was in fever so much. Prabhupāda: Oh. So capital you'll get, rest assured. Anyone will give. He will give, or I will give, the bank will give. That is . . . but you must utilize it properly. Bhagatjī: You understand how to utilize? Dhanañjaya: Yes, I understand. Prabhupāda: There is no scarcity. Dhanañjaya: Utilize means return. Bhagatjī: Return means to utilize it properly. Prabhupāda: No, return also gradually, not at a time. Because if you take five thousand rupees, pay at the rate of five hundred rupees. Bhagatjī: Junior Sorcar jo magician hai world ke sabse bade, woh darshan karne ke liye aapke yahan aaye hain. Wahan se woh Ghaziabad jaa rahe hain abhi. Woh aapke darshan ke liye bahut zyada . . . (Junior Sorcar who is the world's biggest magician is here to meet you. He is leaving for Ghaziabad after that. He is very eager to meet you . . .) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . is concerned, that is our home, Aligarh. Bhagatjī: Aligarh. Prabhupāda: Money is concerned, you'll get any amount. Now organize and . . . (indistinct) Dhanañjaya: Now, another thing I wanted to ask. Many devotees were asking me if we could make a deity of Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: That is not very . . . well . . . that is not immediate. We shall see later on. You can make. That we shall see later on. Not immediately. Immediately you make this arrangement. *Dhanañjaya: And for design of Gaura*-Nitāi and Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, we should just use the same design, or we should make better? Prabhupāda: Make a hand design like that, and have your people make like that. Make a nice . . . Dhanañjaya: Make, yes. I mean, better design. Prabhupāda: Yes, make a better design. And the hand will be like this. (Prabhupāda raises his arms above his head, and stretches his palms open with his fingers pointing outwards) Dhanañjaya: Not like this. I like this myself. It's Navadvīpa style. Prabhupāda: This is Navadvīpa style. Dhanañjaya: Yes, I like this much better. Otherwise the arms are too long and thin. *Prabhupāda: No. In this way make a nice design Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. And Rādhārāṇī should be like this. (demonstrates Rādhārāṇī's right hand raised above waist-level, Her palm upwards and the thumb joined to the tip of Her index finger) This is Vṛndāvana style. Not this. This is Lakṣmī style. This. Make these arrangements. I am hopeful of this business. Very good business we'll have. I want to introduce in every family. They'll do it. If they do not worship, let them keep as dolls. That will also give them inspiration. Dhanañjaya: Actually, so many Indians in the West, they're keeping just like dolls. They are not worshiping regularly. They're keeping on the mantelpiece or on the side. Prabhupāda: In this way be encouraged, and in full capacity do business and get others. Dhanañjaya: There was one boy who just came from Italy, and he's expert in wood carving. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Dhanañjaya: So we can take artists for wooden siṁhāsanas . Siṁhāsanas he said he can make. He even brought his tools. He has a whole box of tools he brought just for carving, and he studied in the south of Spain, religious architecture. Prabhupāda: He can make a small siṁhāsana for the Deities, collapsible, so that if anyone wants, he can dispatch them. (end) (bullock cart SKP) Prabhupāda: I have seen, Gandhi wanted to organize a village program, and the village . . . (break) . . . in the field, that this program for constructing toilet in the village, they have spent so much. You know that? The first business was toilet. To restrict them to pass stool here and there, they must have. Now in constructing that toilet paraphernalia . . . (indistinct) . . . they . . . therefore it failed, village organization. Not for that purpose. There were many purpose. Because they had no engagement, so why they should remain in the village? There are so many attraction in the city, and they get money. The factory- wallas , they're inviting, "Come here. You shall get twenty rupees per day." Why shall he remain in the village? So if you can organize in the villages, they are interested in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and getting nice prasādam , then . . . one must have some attachment. In the city there are so many artificial attachments. So on what ground they'll remain in the village? Mind . . . always remember this. Unless you have got some attachment, there is no possibility. Gandhi's program was very nice, village organized so that they may not come to the city and help the capitalists. Remain satisfied in the village. But where is that satisfaction? That is the failure. Lokanātha: If they add the holy name to their lives, they will . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. If they could understand that, "That will be helpful if you chant." Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's statement will never be false. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12). If they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , then gradually the dirty things accumulated within the heart will be cleansed. And if he comes to the understanding, clear idea, that "I want to eat something, and my necessities . . . so if I get my necessities, primary necessities of life, and satisfaction of mind, then why shall I go to the city?" That they can have very easily . . . if they follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā , that "Your first necessity is food . . ." So produce food here. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). And you'll find here so much land is lying vacant, because they have gone to the city for twenty rupees daily to manufacture Goodyear tyre. And who will work here? Now I have seen in Delhi, the government is advertising, "Go back to the village." Lokanātha: Yes, I read that . . . Prabhupāda: You are . . . rascal, you are manufacturing wine and keeping them engaged whole day in the work. So after tired, being tired, he requires some wine. Then and why he'll go? And no spiritual education, no cleanliness. Simply inviting, "Go to the village," they will go? Lokanātha: Just a propaganda. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . no, they're thinking that, "So many people are coming to the cities, how we shall provide them?" That's a problem. After all, government has to supply them rations. Where is so much foodstuff? And if they are not supplied, then there will be resentment. This is a fact. What they are doing in the city, so many scooter (makes motor sound), going here and there. Actually no engagement. The girls are loitering in the street by dressing. It will become more and more problems, city life. So this is the solution, that they must go back to the village. But they are trained up to enjoy the facilities, so*-called facilities, of the city. They are not going to village. But if we can introduce this hari-saṅkīrtana , and if they have little taste, that is success. It's a great program. And that taste will come— ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). If he simply becomes little sober that, "I want to eat, I have to sleep, I want some sense enjoyment and defense. So if I can get easily in the village, why shall I go three hundred miles away?" Just keep in mind the psychology. So that simple life will be possible if one is bhakta . Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Only by devotion; *not by otherwise. Not by artificial means, by manufacturing toilet. Only bhakti . If they get little attachment for Kṛṣṇa, these questions will be solved automatically, and they will be happy. Undoubtedly. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first instruction: ceto*-darpaṇa. Lokanātha: I come from village, and I'm happy now, as I have taken to holy name and prasāda . So more, other villagers . . . half of these boys are from villages? (referring to other members of the bullock cart party) Prabhupāda: Yes, they are villagers. Lokanātha: They're chanting and they're so happy, and they're going back to village. Prabhupāda: Very good life. Very good life, the village life—provided he has got proper engagement. Otherwise his mind will be disturbed, and he'll seek after wine, after women, after this, after that. Devil's workshop. *Ravi: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Because there's no sacrifice, because people aren't performing sacrifices now, is it more difficult to live off the land? It is more difficult to grow vegetables in Kali*-yuga where there's no sacrifice? Prabhupāda: What is that sacrifice? Ravi: Chanting. Chanting the holy name. Doesn't that make it more difficult to live? The weather's . . . everything's so disturbed? Prabhupāda: Whether you're not eating? Lokanātha: He says there is no yajña , sacrifice. People are not performing. That is why they are into the trouble. *Prabhupāda: This is yajña . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana*-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Su-medhasaḥ . Those who have got brain substance, they perform this saṅkīrtana-yajña . Those who have cow dung, they cannot. (laughter) One who has got brain substance. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ . And alpa-medhasa . The two words. Svayambhūr: Viśvambhara is having fever, but he'll go to Koshi now. Viśvambhara is having fever, so he'll go . . . Prabhupāda: Who will go? Svayambhūr: Viśvambhara will go when he's better, maybe tomorrow. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. There is another word: tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasaḥ . Tad bhavati . . . alpa-medha and su-medhasa . These two words we get from the śāstra . Those who are alpa-medhasa , they want to bring . . . just like in name, gītā-yajñas . There is no yajña. They are manufacturing some ideas. The other yajñas are not possible in this age. First of all, there is no yajñika-brāhmaṇa , there is no ingredients. So therefore this is the yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ . This is quotation from Bhāgavata . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti he su-medhasaḥ . Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni . . . (CC Antya 20.12). This yajña . Simply chant, and engage others in chanting. That is yajña , first-class yajña , recommended. Ravi: Prabhupāda? When we pass through the village, how will we keep them engaged . . . Prabhupāda: That he'll guide you. You do not know. He is from village, he knows. Village or no village, wherever you chant, people will come. That is a fact. That is a fact. Either you chant in Calcutta Maidan or in the village, they will be . . . India is still alive in that sense. We have seen it. We have experience. Wherever we have chanted, people have come. Lokanātha: When you went to some place in Gujarat . . . Sanand? Prabhupāda: Yes. Lokanātha: It was reported that thousands of people will come. It was a small village . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Village, if you go, ah, they will come like anything. Even in the city we have got experience. In Calcutta we did Maidan. Thirty thousand they were coming. They could not understand English, still they are coming—simply by kīrtana . This Haṁsadūta was performing kīrtana , and all the Bengali ladies coming from outside Calcutta by train, and they're praying, "Take this." . . . (indistinct) . . . still India is alive. And I was speaking in English mostly. Also in Delhi. Still ladies are sitting. (laughs) What they'll understand English? But that kīrtana was so attractive, they sat down only for kīrtana. Lokanātha: Nobody outside ISKCON does this kīrtana. Prabhupāda: What do they know? What they'll do? All rascals, fools. They never done. Lokanātha: Even some religious organizations are there, but nobody . . . Prabhupāda: They do not know what is religion. They do not know what is religion. They have no faith in God. This is their position. All bogus. I say it, challenging, do they know what is God? Ki balo, (Now say) Mr. Gupta? Do they know? People in general, do they know what is God? Mr. Gupta: They don't know what is God. But they only respect God out of fear. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is also good. Ārto arthārthī (BG 7.16). Ārtaḥ . That is good. But still they do not know what is God. They have simply heard the name of God, there is God. That is good also, than the rascals who deny the existence of God. So in comparison to them, they are very good. At least they accept there is something as God: "God is good," "God is kind," "God is . . ." But what is God they have no idea. That's a fact. That they do not know. Either the nonbelievers or believers, both of them, they have no idea. This is the first time, perhaps, in the world we are introducing, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." Lokanātha: You have said many times you could give complete address of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, we give address. Lokanātha: And also we know the telephone number. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lokanātha: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: This is the first time. Otherwise, they do not know what is God. Now you are coming from Christian community. Did you have any idea of God? Dhanañjaya: Just "God is great." *Prabhupāda: That's all . . . but what is that great? What is God, you do not know. We know. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Bās. "There is no more greater principle than Me." That is great. "How You are great?" Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2): "I am the origin of all these demigods." Next "How You are great?" Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). This is their ignorance. They have simply heard God is great, but how He is great, that they do not know. Here is the . . . God is personally speaking, "Yes, I am great in this way." Ahaṁ sarvasya . Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). That is greatness. The original source of everything. So we are presenting God, "Here is God, here is God". Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ (SB 1.3.28). There are other incarnations, but kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . That's a fact. *So try to present the real fact. It will be effective. If there is real . . . reality, just like first*-class pure ghee . . . if one tastes, he'll hanker after. Without any advertisement, by the taste of the ghee , it will go on. Is it not? If you put little pure ghee on the rice, it will be so tasteful that he'll want it again. But give the pure thing. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Try to give Him to the people. And how to take it? Hare Kṛṣṇa. He hasn't got to pay anything. God has given him the tongue. Induce him, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And that is the beginning. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). It begins from the jihvā . So people will be surprised, "How God consciousness begins with jihvā? " That they do not know. Śāstra says, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Jihvā , the tongue, is the beginning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. People are surprised. They think the mind, speculative mind, is the beginning. No. Śāstra says tongue is the beginning. Muni, ṛṣi, muni . Muni means speculator. So they think speculative mind is the beginning of God consciousness. But śāstra says no, not the mind. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). If one is speculator, he will be on the material field. Asata. Asato mā sad gamaya . "Don't remain in the asat . Come to the reality." That reality begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Jihvā ādi, ādau . So give them chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and give them chance to taste prasādam . They'll be . . . that's all. Jihvādau . Utilize the tongue, primarily. And gradually everything will be . . . So chant as much possible and eat prasādam . No education required, no philosophy required. But follow the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction and become guru . *If they have got little brain, then kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa . Otherwise, Hare Kṛṣṇa upadeśa , that's all. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very simple. The preacher does not require to be very highly educated. If he follows simply Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128), then he's successful. No, ustādi. (expertise.) That is not . . . Lokanātha: No what? Prabhupāda: Ustādi , ustad hota hai na? (Expertise, there are Ustāds right?) Lokanātha: Flowery language. Prabhupāda: Bhagavan pehla. Ye Ustadi hai. Maya ka juta kha raha hai aur Bhagvan bante hai . . . itna sense nahi hai ki agar main Bhagvan hi hota toh ye juta khaane ke liye kaisa hai? Bhagvan kisika juta khata hai? Kahin se juta khaya kya? Sabko juta bana diya. Ye Bhagvan hai. (God first. This is expertise. They are beaten up by Maya's boots and become God . . . that doesn't even make much sense, that if I am God then why am I beaten up by Maya's boots. Is God beaten up by boots? Does Kṛṣṇa ever get beaten up by boots? He made everyone condemned like shoes. That is God.). That is God is great. Nobody can defeat Him. Nobody can go beyond Him. Asama-ūrdhva . Nobody is equal to Him. Asama , ūrdhva . Nobody is greater than Him, nobody is equal to Him. That is God. Nowadays there are so many Gods, everyone God. So what kind of God? If God has a competitor, then what is the God? God has no competitor. Asama-ūrdhva . Everyone is down. Asama . Not equal, not ūrdhva . Then down. Two things . . . three things are there: equal, level; upper and lower. So there is no upper and there is no equal. Then all lower. Then He's the supreme controller, īśvara parama . In the lower level there may be īśvara . But they are not parama . Subordinate. Lokanātha: Āra saba bhṛtya . " Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa Īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya ." (CC Adi 5.142). Prabhupāda: Āra saba bhṛtya . God is one, and all others, they are subjects. Nityo nityānām . Why these two words are used? Nityānām . Everyone is nitya, but He's the supreme nitya . Cetanaś cetanānām . He's not dead body, dead matter. Cetana. Nitya . . . just as the Himalaya Parvata is standing forever. No. Cetana , living. So how He can be imperson? Himalaya Parvata may be very big, the sky may be big, but it is not cetana . Therefore this word is used, cetana , living. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). What is the difference? Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . That one nitya is providing, maintaining all other nityas . That is God. God is great. That is the meaning. So anyway, make your effort sincerely. The basic principle is this: induce them to chant and take prasādam , you'll be successful. Not very much Ustādi . Mantra de denge aur humko 35 dollars do jhamela ye sab. (We will give you a mantra, give us 35 dollars—all this is trouble.) Lokanātha: So we'll write to you, about the books. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Go to village to village. It is very noble attempt. And if you sincerely preach, Kṛṣṇa will . . . buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te . There is no doubt. *Indian man: Lakhon Guru Hai Jagat Mein Par Ek Bhi Nahi Kaam Ka, (There are many gurus in this world but all are useless,) Sab Svaarthi Hain Daam Ke Danka Bajate Naam Ka, (All are selfish for money glorifying their own names,) Visvas Ka Guru Ek Hi Hai Baaki Nahin Kuch Dhyan De, (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Jo Khaas Ki Pehchan De Wahi Sad*-Guru Pehchan Le. (And that Sad-guru is one who tells about the Supreme, identifying him.) Lokanātha: He joined us four days back. He's from Maharashtra. I'm taking him with me. Prabhupāda: He understands the philosophy. Wherefrom it is quoted? Indian boy: (Marathi) Lokanātha: Saint Tukārāma. Prabhupāda: Oh, Saint Tukārāma. He's a great saint. He is Māyāvādī or Vaiṣṇava? Lokanātha: Tukārāma is Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Oh! Tukārāma is Vaiṣṇava. Lokanātha: But this is different. Tukārāma met Caitanya Mahāprabhu at Mylapur. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tukārāma is a disciple of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then it is in order. What is the verse . . . *Indian man: Lakhon Guru Hai Jagat Mein Par Ek Bhi Nahi Kaam Ka, (There are many gurus in this world but all are useless, Sab Svaarthi Hain Daam Ke Danka Bajate Naam Ka, (All are selfish for money glorifying their own names,) Visvas Ka Guru Ek Hi Hai Baaki Nahin Kuch Dhyan De, (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Jo Khaas Ki Pehchan De Wahi Sad*-Guru Pehchan Le. (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Nahi Hone Denge Barbaad Jo Denge Saccha Itihas Woh Hamare Guru Vaishnava Srila Prabhupāda. (He will not perish, He will give real history and testimony, he is our guru Vaisnava Srila Prabhupāda.) Lokanātha: It's a very nice quotation. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Ye hum logon ke liye koi muskil nahi hai, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu ne . . . (This is not all difficult for us, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said . . .) "By My order." That's all. That I was explaining to Mr. Gupta. If I say this bag of bead, you take it and give it to him, then where is my difficulty? There is no difficulty. This is called bead bag. You take it and give him—and you become guru . Call a spade a spade. And if you become Ustādi , "Kurukṣetra means this body, and this means this, and this means that," then you spoil. You spoil yourself also . . . (indistinct Bengali) (end) (bullock cart SKP) Prabhupāda: I have seen, Gandhi wanted to organize a village program, and the village . . . (break) . . . in the field, that this program for constructing toilet in the village, they have spent so much. You know that? The first business was toilet. To restrict them to pass stool here and there, they must have. Now in constructing that toilet paraphernalia . . . (indistinct) . . . they . . . therefore it failed, village organization. Not for that purpose. There were many purpose. Because they had no engagement, so why they should remain in the village? There are so many attraction in the city, and they get money. The factory- wallas , they're inviting, "Come here. You shall get twenty rupees per day." Why shall he remain in the village? So if you can organize in the villages, they are interested in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and getting nice prasādam , then . . . one must have some attachment. In the city there are so many artificial attachments. So on what ground they'll remain in the village? Mind . . . always remember this. Unless you have got some attachment, there is no possibility. Gandhi's program was very nice, village organized so that they may not come to the city and help the capitalists. Remain satisfied in the village. But where is that satisfaction? That is the failure. Lokanātha: If they add the holy name to their lives, they will . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. If they could understand that, "That will be helpful if you chant." Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's statement will never be false. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12). If they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , then gradually the dirty things accumulated within the heart will be cleansed. And if he comes to the understanding, clear idea, that "I want to eat something, and my necessities . . . so if I get my necessities, primary necessities of life, and satisfaction of mind, then why shall I go to the city?" That they can have very easily . . . if they follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā , that "Your first necessity is food . . ." So produce food here. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). And you'll find here so much land is lying vacant, because they have gone to the city for twenty rupees daily to manufacture Goodyear tyre. And who will work here? Now I have seen in Delhi, the government is advertising, "Go back to the village." Lokanātha: Yes, I read that . . . Prabhupāda: You are . . . rascal, you are manufacturing wine and keeping them engaged whole day in the work. So after tired, being tired, he requires some wine. Then and why he'll go? And no spiritual education, no cleanliness. Simply inviting, "Go to the village," they will go? Lokanātha: Just a propaganda. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . no, they're thinking that, "So many people are coming to the cities, how we shall provide them?" That's a problem. After all, government has to supply them rations. Where is so much foodstuff? And if they are not supplied, then there will be resentment. This is a fact. What they are doing in the city, so many scooter (makes motor sound), going here and there. Actually no engagement. The girls are loitering in the street by dressing. It will become more and more problems, city life. So this is the solution, that they must go back to the village. But they are trained up to enjoy the facilities, so*-called facilities, of the city. They are not going to village. But if we can introduce this hari-saṅkīrtana , and if they have little taste, that is success. It's a great program. And that taste will come— ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). If he simply becomes little sober that, "I want to eat, I have to sleep, I want some sense enjoyment and defense. So if I can get easily in the village, why shall I go three hundred miles away?" Just keep in mind the psychology. So that simple life will be possible if one is bhakta . Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Only by devotion; *not by otherwise. Not by artificial means, by manufacturing toilet. Only bhakti . If they get little attachment for Kṛṣṇa, these questions will be solved automatically, and they will be happy. Undoubtedly. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first instruction: ceto*-darpaṇa. Lokanātha: I come from village, and I'm happy now, as I have taken to holy name and prasāda . So more, other villagers . . . half of these boys are from villages? (referring to other members of the bullock cart party) Prabhupāda: Yes, they are villagers. Lokanātha: They're chanting and they're so happy, and they're going back to village. Prabhupāda: Very good life. Very good life, the village life—provided he has got proper engagement. Otherwise his mind will be disturbed, and he'll seek after wine, after women, after this, after that. Devil's workshop. *Ravi: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Because there's no sacrifice, because people aren't performing sacrifices now, is it more difficult to live off the land? It is more difficult to grow vegetables in Kali*-yuga where there's no sacrifice? Prabhupāda: What is that sacrifice? Ravi: Chanting. Chanting the holy name. Doesn't that make it more difficult to live? The weather's . . . everything's so disturbed? Prabhupāda: Whether you're not eating? Lokanātha: He says there is no yajña , sacrifice. People are not performing. That is why they are into the trouble. *Prabhupāda: This is yajña . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana*-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Su-medhasaḥ . Those who have got brain substance, they perform this saṅkīrtana-yajña . Those who have cow dung, they cannot. (laughter) One who has got brain substance. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ . And alpa-medhasa . The two words. Svayambhūr: Viśvambhara is having fever, but he'll go to Koshi now. Viśvambhara is having fever, so he'll go . . . Prabhupāda: Who will go? Svayambhūr: Viśvambhara will go when he's better, maybe tomorrow. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. There is another word: tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasaḥ . Tad bhavati . . . alpa-medha and su-medhasa . These two words we get from the śāstra . Those who are alpa-medhasa , they want to bring . . . just like in name, gītā-yajñas . There is no yajña. They are manufacturing some ideas. The other yajñas are not possible in this age. First of all, there is no yajñika-brāhmaṇa , there is no ingredients. So therefore this is the yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ . This is quotation from Bhāgavata . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti he su-medhasaḥ . Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni . . . (CC Antya 20.12). This yajña . Simply chant, and engage others in chanting. That is yajña , first-class yajña , recommended. Ravi: Prabhupāda? When we pass through the village, how will we keep them engaged . . . Prabhupāda: That he'll guide you. You do not know. He is from village, he knows. Village or no village, wherever you chant, people will come. That is a fact. That is a fact. Either you chant in Calcutta Maidan or in the village, they will be . . . India is still alive in that sense. We have seen it. We have experience. Wherever we have chanted, people have come. Lokanātha: When you went to some place in Gujarat . . . Sanand? Prabhupāda: Yes. Lokanātha: It was reported that thousands of people will come. It was a small village . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Village, if you go, ah, they will come like anything. Even in the city we have got experience. In Calcutta we did Maidan. Thirty thousand they were coming. They could not understand English, still they are coming—simply by kīrtana . This Haṁsadūta was performing kīrtana , and all the Bengali ladies coming from outside Calcutta by train, and they're praying, "Take this." . . . (indistinct) . . . still India is alive. And I was speaking in English mostly. Also in Delhi. Still ladies are sitting. (laughs) What they'll understand English? But that kīrtana was so attractive, they sat down only for kīrtana. Lokanātha: Nobody outside ISKCON does this kīrtana. Prabhupāda: What do they know? What they'll do? All rascals, fools. They never done. Lokanātha: Even some religious organizations are there, but nobody . . . Prabhupāda: They do not know what is religion. They do not know what is religion. They have no faith in God. This is their position. All bogus. I say it, challenging, do they know what is God? Ki balo, (Now say) Mr. Gupta? Do they know? People in general, do they know what is God? Mr. Gupta: They don't know what is God. But they only respect God out of fear. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is also good. Ārto arthārthī (BG 7.16). Ārtaḥ . That is good. But still they do not know what is God. They have simply heard the name of God, there is God. That is good also, than the rascals who deny the existence of God. So in comparison to them, they are very good. At least they accept there is something as God: "God is good," "God is kind," "God is . . ." But what is God they have no idea. That's a fact. That they do not know. Either the nonbelievers or believers, both of them, they have no idea. This is the first time, perhaps, in the world we are introducing, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." Lokanātha: You have said many times you could give complete address of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, we give address. Lokanātha: And also we know the telephone number. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lokanātha: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: This is the first time. Otherwise, they do not know what is God. Now you are coming from Christian community. Did you have any idea of God? Dhanañjaya: Just "God is great." *Prabhupāda: That's all . . . but what is that great? What is God, you do not know. We know. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Bās. "There is no more greater principle than Me." That is great. "How You are great?" Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2): "I am the origin of all these demigods." Next "How You are great?" Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). This is their ignorance. They have simply heard God is great, but how He is great, that they do not know. Here is the . . . God is personally speaking, "Yes, I am great in this way." Ahaṁ sarvasya . Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). That is greatness. The original source of everything. So we are presenting God, "Here is God, here is God". Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ (SB 1.3.28). There are other incarnations, but kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . That's a fact. *So try to present the real fact. It will be effective. If there is real . . . reality, just like first*-class pure ghee . . . if one tastes, he'll hanker after. Without any advertisement, by the taste of the ghee , it will go on. Is it not? If you put little pure ghee on the rice, it will be so tasteful that he'll want it again. But give the pure thing. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Try to give Him to the people. And how to take it? Hare Kṛṣṇa. He hasn't got to pay anything. God has given him the tongue. Induce him, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And that is the beginning. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). It begins from the jihvā . So people will be surprised, "How God consciousness begins with jihvā? " That they do not know. Śāstra says, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Jihvā , the tongue, is the beginning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. People are surprised. They think the mind, speculative mind, is the beginning. No. Śāstra says tongue is the beginning. Muni, ṛṣi, muni . Muni means speculator. So they think speculative mind is the beginning of God consciousness. But śāstra says no, not the mind. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). If one is speculator, he will be on the material field. Asata. Asato mā sad gamaya . "Don't remain in the asat . Come to the reality." That reality begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Jihvā ādi, ādau . So give them chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and give them chance to taste prasādam . They'll be . . . that's all. Jihvādau . Utilize the tongue, primarily. And gradually everything will be . . . So chant as much possible and eat prasādam . No education required, no philosophy required. But follow the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction and become guru . *If they have got little brain, then kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa . Otherwise, Hare Kṛṣṇa upadeśa , that's all. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very simple. The preacher does not require to be very highly educated. If he follows simply Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128), then he's successful. No, ustādi. (expertise.) That is not . . . Lokanātha: No what? Prabhupāda: Ustādi , ustad hota hai na? (Expertise, there are Ustāds right?) Lokanātha: Flowery language. Prabhupāda: Bhagavan pehla. Ye Ustadi hai. Maya ka juta kha raha hai aur Bhagvan bante hai . . . itna sense nahi hai ki agar main Bhagvan hi hota toh ye juta khaane ke liye kaisa hai? Bhagvan kisika juta khata hai? Kahin se juta khaya kya? Sabko juta bana diya. Ye Bhagvan hai. (God first. This is expertise. They are beaten up by Maya's boots and become God . . . that doesn't even make much sense, that if I am God then why am I beaten up by Maya's boots. Is God beaten up by boots? Does Kṛṣṇa ever get beaten up by boots? He made everyone condemned like shoes. That is God.). That is God is great. Nobody can defeat Him. Nobody can go beyond Him. Asama-ūrdhva . Nobody is equal to Him. Asama , ūrdhva . Nobody is greater than Him, nobody is equal to Him. That is God. Nowadays there are so many Gods, everyone God. So what kind of God? If God has a competitor, then what is the God? God has no competitor. Asama-ūrdhva . Everyone is down. Asama . Not equal, not ūrdhva . Then down. Two things . . . three things are there: equal, level; upper and lower. So there is no upper and there is no equal. Then all lower. Then He's the supreme controller, īśvara parama . In the lower level there may be īśvara . But they are not parama . Subordinate. Lokanātha: Āra saba bhṛtya . " Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa Īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya ." (CC Adi 5.142). Prabhupāda: Āra saba bhṛtya . God is one, and all others, they are subjects. Nityo nityānām . Why these two words are used? Nityānām . Everyone is nitya, but He's the supreme nitya . Cetanaś cetanānām . He's not dead body, dead matter. Cetana. Nitya . . . just as the Himalaya Parvata is standing forever. No. Cetana , living. So how He can be imperson? Himalaya Parvata may be very big, the sky may be big, but it is not cetana . Therefore this word is used, cetana , living. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). What is the difference? Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . That one nitya is providing, maintaining all other nityas . That is God. God is great. That is the meaning. So anyway, make your effort sincerely. The basic principle is this: induce them to chant and take prasādam , you'll be successful. Not very much Ustādi . Mantra de denge aur humko 35 dollars do jhamela ye sab. (We will give you a mantra, give us 35 dollars—all this is trouble.) Lokanātha: So we'll write to you, about the books. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Go to village to village. It is very noble attempt. And if you sincerely preach, Kṛṣṇa will . . . buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te . There is no doubt. *Indian man: Lakhon Guru Hai Jagat Mein Par Ek Bhi Nahi Kaam Ka, (There are many gurus in this world but all are useless,) Sab Svaarthi Hain Daam Ke Danka Bajate Naam Ka, (All are selfish for money glorifying their own names,) Visvas Ka Guru Ek Hi Hai Baaki Nahin Kuch Dhyan De, (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Jo Khaas Ki Pehchan De Wahi Sad*-Guru Pehchan Le. (And that Sad-guru is one who tells about the Supreme, identifying him.) Lokanātha: He joined us four days back. He's from Maharashtra. I'm taking him with me. Prabhupāda: He understands the philosophy. Wherefrom it is quoted? Indian boy: (Marathi) Lokanātha: Saint Tukārāma. Prabhupāda: Oh, Saint Tukārāma. He's a great saint. He is Māyāvādī or Vaiṣṇava? Lokanātha: Tukārāma is Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Oh! Tukārāma is Vaiṣṇava. Lokanātha: But this is different. Tukārāma met Caitanya Mahāprabhu at Mylapur. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tukārāma is a disciple of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then it is in order. What is the verse . . . *Indian man: Lakhon Guru Hai Jagat Mein Par Ek Bhi Nahi Kaam Ka, (There are many gurus in this world but all are useless, Sab Svaarthi Hain Daam Ke Danka Bajate Naam Ka, (All are selfish for money glorifying their own names,) Visvas Ka Guru Ek Hi Hai Baaki Nahin Kuch Dhyan De, (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Jo Khaas Ki Pehchan De Wahi Sad*-Guru Pehchan Le. (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Nahi Hone Denge Barbaad Jo Denge Saccha Itihas Woh Hamare Guru Vaishnava Srila Prabhupāda. (He will not perish, He will give real history and testimony, he is our guru Vaisnava Srila Prabhupāda.) Lokanātha: It's a very nice quotation. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Ye hum logon ke liye koi muskil nahi hai, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu ne . . . (This is not all difficult for us, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said . . .) "By My order." That's all. That I was explaining to Mr. Gupta. If I say this bag of bead, you take it and give it to him, then where is my difficulty? There is no difficulty. This is called bead bag. You take it and give him—and you become guru . Call a spade a spade. And if you become Ustādi , "Kurukṣetra means this body, and this means this, and this means that," then you spoil. You spoil yourself also . . . (indistinct Bengali) (end) (Letter to Sai Baba) Pradyumna: This says: "God is an Indian." Puttaparthi. "God is an Indian. His contemporary avatāra . . ." Prabhupāda: Puttaparthi? What is that? Pradyumna: Puttaparthi is in Andhra. "His contemporary avatāra rests in the trinity of Sirti Baba, Sai Baba, and Prem Baba to come. So Satya Sai Baba, the second of the triple incarnation, asserted in the course of a marathon interview to add, 'In my present avatāra , I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity.' " Prabhupāda: So, to whom we shall address this letter? Pradyumna: Well, it depends where we want to send it for publishing. To this or to another magazine. Prabhupāda: He says that, "I'm avatāra ." So therefore it should be addressed to him. He says. So address to Satya Sai Baba. Where is he? At Bombay? Pradyumna: No, he stays at this Puttaparthi or in Bangalore. Prabhupāda: Puttaparthi . . . Pradyumna: That is a small village. Prabhupāda: Oh. Post office, Puttaparthi. And it is in, where? Bangalore? Pradyumna: That is in Andhra. *Prabhupāda: Andhra. Hmm. "Dear Sai Baba, just recently in the Blitz paper, published on"—give the date—"we are surprised to find one article, 'God is an Indian,' and you have claimed to become an incarnation of God to save the human society. What is the ground of your claiming as incarnation? And what you have done to save the human society? Will you explain for enlightenment of us? Or many of us? We have got the list of incarnations recorded in the Vedic scriptures and their respective activities also. So where is that record in the Vedic scripture about your appearing as incarnation? Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is fully described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . ." Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnationship, or . . . (indistinct) . . . what it should be? Pradyumna: Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation . . . Prabhupāda: There may be so many, but I mean to say Lord Kṛṣṇa is incarnation, so avatāratva . So what is the English, avatāratva ? *Pradyumna: The incarnation*-ness, or quality of being an incarnation. But that is not . . . the quality of being an incarnation is not . . . the most literal is incarnation-ness. *Prabhupāda: Therefore say that, "Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation*-ness is fully described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Similarly, Lord Rāmacandra's incarnation-ness or Lord Buddha's incarnation-ness, Lord Caitanya's incarnation-ness, we have got full information in the Vedic literatures." *Pradyumna: "Lord Rāma's incarnation*-ness, Lord Buddha's incarnation-ness . . ." Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya. Pradyumna: Oh. Prabhupāda: "Where is your incarnation is described? Will you kindly give the reference? Anyone can say like you, that one is incarnation, as it has become a fashion nowadays. But is that claim only is the proof of one's becoming incarnation? Some such unauthorized claim of becoming an incarnation is certainly ridiculous." Such . . . Pradyumna: ". . . unauthorized claim of one's becoming an incarnation . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . is certainly ridiculous. Then you have claimed to take form." What is he has written? Pradyumna: "Then you have claimed to take . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no. What he has written. Pradyumna: "In my present avatāra I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity." Prabhupāda: "So you have claimed to . . ." What is that? Again read it. Pradyumna: "I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity." *Prabhupāda: "So you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad*-gītā that God is never formless." Find out this verse, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ. Pradyumna: "Unintelligent men who know Me not think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Pradyumna: "Those who are worshipers of demigods have been described as less intelligent persons, and here the impersonalists are similarly described. Lord Kṛṣṇa in His personal form is here speaking before Arjuna, and still, due to ignorance, impersonalists argue that the Supreme Lord ultimately has no form. Yāmunācārya, a great devotee of the Lord in the disciplic succession from Rāmānujācārya, has written two very appropriate verses in this connection. He says: 'My dear Lord, devotees like Vyāsadeva and Nārada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing Vedānta and Upaniṣads and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead.' In the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is stated that the Personality of Godhead cannot be understood simply by study of the Vedānta literature. Only by the mercy of the Supreme Lord can the Personality of the Supreme be known. Therefore in this verse it is clearly stated that not only the worshipers of the demigods are less intelligent, but those nondevotees who are engaged in Vedānta and speculation on Vedic literature . . ." Prabhupāda: You can give up to that Yāmunācārya's quotation. What you have written? Pradyumna: So far? Everything? Or just . . . "Only, is one's word only . . ." Prabhupāda: What you have written. Pradyumna: "Dear Sai Baba, just recently . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Last what you have written. *Pradyumna: "Similarly, Lord Rāma's incarnation, Lord Buddha's incarnation, Lord Caitanya's incarnation*-ness, we have got full information from the Vedic scriptures. Where is your incarnation described? Will you kindly give the reference? Anyone can say like you, that one is an incarnation, as it has become a fashion nowadays. But is that claim only the proof of one's becoming an incarnation? Such unauthorized claim of one's becoming an incarnation is certainly ridiculous. Then you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad-gītā that God is never formless." *Prabhupāda: (dictating) "Only the rascals and less intelligent class of men think that God is formless, and when He incarnates, He takes a particular form. In this connection, a verse from Yāmunācārya may be quoted as follows." You have quoted the Bhagavad*-gītā ? That quote? Pradyumna: Well, it doesn't mention the Sanskrit here of that Yāmunācārya verse. *Prabhupāda: No, no. "In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said"—what you have written? Pradyumna: Oh. We can put the Sanskrit, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannam (BG 7.24). Prabhupāda: No, what you have written here? *Pradyumna: "Such unauthorized claim of one's becoming . . . then you have claimed to take a form of the formless God, but we see in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . ." Prabhupāda: That you have to quote. *Pradyumna: Yes. So, Bhagavad*-gītā 7.24, Sanskrit and translation. "But we see in the Bhagavad-gītā . . ." Prabhupāda: Read it. Pradyumna: "Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme." So ". . . that God is never formless. Only the rascals and less intelligent class of men think that God is formless and when He incarnates He takes a particular form. In this connection a verse from Yāmunācārya may be quoted as follows." Prabhupāda: So what is Yāmunacārya's quotation? Pradyumna: "My dear Lord, devotees like Vyāsadeva and Nārada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Prabhupāda: You have to quote that verse and the meaning. Pradyumna: But the Sanskrit wasn't give here. Prabhupāda: The Sanskrit is there. Pradyumna: No, but this verse from Yāmunācārya. *Prabhupāda: Oh. You'll find the Sanskrit in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Pradyumna: Oh. Which place? *Prabhupāda: In the Ādi*-līlā. Tam . It begins with tam . You can find out. Call, call him. (bell rings) Read. The Sanskrit verse is not . . . Pradyumna: No, it's not quoted here. Prabhupāda: Tam paribhāvita , like that. There is a verse. Pradyumna: Oh. I will find it. *Prabhupāda: Ādi*-līlā. Hari-śauri: Which volume? *Prabhupāda: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Hari-śauri: First volume? Prabhupāda: I think. There is, what is called, index? *Pradyumna: Yes, for Ādi*-līlā ? Where's the verse index? Hari-śauri: Which verse is it? If you give me the verse I can . . . *Pradyumna: It begins tam paribhāvita. T*-a-m. T-a-m. Tam paribhāvita something. Prabhupāda: You can bring here. Then? Pradyumna: So this quote goes on. "But those who in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing the Vedānta and the *Upaniṣads* and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead." Prabhupāda: "So in this connection, the statement of *Bhāgavatam* is especially important. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Brahman is impersonal, Paramātmā is localized, and Bhagavān is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead . . ." Pradyumna: "Brahman is the impersonal." *Prabhupāda: "Brahman is impersonal." Not "the." "Paramātmā is localized, and Bhagavān is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa after hearing Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa as follows." Quote this, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma (BG 10.12). Find out. No. Find out in the book. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Puruṣaṁ śāśvatam . . . Pradyumna: Puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam. Prabhupāda: Divyam . "So here Arjuna addresses Lord Kṛṣṇa as śāśvataṁ puruṣam, eternally the Personality of Godhead. It is never admitted that Supreme Lord is originally imperson. Puruṣam ." I have described puruṣam ? Yes. What you have written? *Pradyumna: "When Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa after hearing Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa as follows: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma (BG 10.12), etc. Here Kṛṣṇa addresses . . . here Arjuna addresses Kṛṣṇa as śāśvataṁ puruṣam , or the eternal Personality of Godhead. It is never admitted that the Supreme Lord is originally impersonal." Prabhupāda: Then, you read the other verses. Param . . . Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Then? Pradyumna: Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve devarṣir nāradas tathā . Prabhupāda: You have to quote this. Then? Read. Pradyumna: Translation? Prabhupāda: No, no. That you have to give a quotation and . . . then? What is next verse? *Pradyumna: In Bhagavad*-gītā after this? Prabhupāda: Āhus tvām, then next, what is next verse? Pradyumna: Ah, "Please tell me in detail of Your divine . . ." Prabhupāda: That's all right. Next. Pradyumna: "How should I meditate on You?" Prabhupāda: That's all right. Next. Pradyumna: "Tell me in detail, O Janārdana, of Your mighty potencies and glories, for I never tire of hearing . . ." Prabhupāda: The point is that, "Your personality cannot be understood without Your mercy." There is a verse. (Pradyumna looks for verse) Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve . Find out that verse. Pradyumna: Aham ? Prabhupāda: Āhus . Pradyumna: Oh, āhus . Prabhupāda: Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ. You read just now. Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: Next verse. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Vyaktyam ? Pradyumna: Vyaktim. Na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ . "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality." Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. Pradyumna: Oh, it says: *Hari-śauri: There's no verse index in any of the Ādi*-līlā . Prabhupāda: There is, but we are missing. Pradyumna: I have the Bengali. Prabhupāda: "The all ācāryas say that Your personality, although there are so many evidences in śāstra and authorized persons, still, the rascals cannot understand." So here is another verse, āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve . Pradyumna: So do you want to quote this verse? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Must quote. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: (dictating) "So one has to accept the statement of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, how He is originally the puruṣa , or person. Impersonal Brahman is expansion of the rays of His personal body, exactly like the sunshine is expansion of the rays of the sun*-god, Vivasvān. Vivasvān is a person in the sun globe, and Kṛṣṇa is also a person who spoke the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā long, long years before He spoke the same to Arjuna. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). Therefore the conclusion is that originally God is always a person. Impersonal Brahman is emanation from the personal God. In other words, God, personal God, is not from impersonal Brahman, but impersonal Brahman is from the personal God. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā as follows." Pradyumna: "Impersonal Brahman is an emanation of the personal God. It is not . . . it is not that the personal God is an emanation of . . . from . . . or it is that impersonal Brahman is an emanation. It is not that the personal God is an emanation of impersonal Brahman." Prabhupāda: "Impersonal Brahman is resting on the personal God, exactly like illumination of light is resting on the bulb. Not that the bulb is resting on the illuminated light." Pradyumna: "Exactly like illumination of light is resting . . ." *Prabhupāda: ". . . on the bulb, electric bulb. Not the bulb is resting on the illumination. Besides that, we learn from Bhagavad*-gītā , Second Chapter . . ." Find out that verse, "It is not that we were . . ." Pradyumna: Na tv evāham ? Prabhupāda: Ah. Pradyumna: "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." Prabhupāda: "So Kṛṣṇa has personally said to Arjuna that in the past He was person." Pradyumna: So "Kṛṣṇa, in person"? Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. "Kṛṣṇa, as a person, says to Arjuna that both of them existed in the past as person, and they'll continue to remain person in the future." Pradyumna: "Both of them existed in the past as person, and both of them shall continue to . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . remain as person in the future. So without knowing all this knowledge, a mūḍha accepts the incarnation of God as coming from imperson. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). Under this heading you have proved yourself to become a mūḍha . And how a mūḍha , or an ass, can become the incarnation of God?" Then? Read that Blitz paper, one after another. *Pradyumna: Then, this is the end of his quote, and then the editor, the writer, is speaking. "This may appear an extraordinarily controversial claim to those unfamiliar with the spiritual depths of Hindu religio*-philosophy. The latter totally accepts the avatāra concept, which broadly means the descent of the divine principle into human affairs. In the Bhagavad-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa intervenes to save . . ." Prabhupāda: That is the editor's. *Pradyumna: Yes, this is the editor's. "In the Bhagavad*-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa intervenes to save humanity from evil forces. The Purāṇas personify earth, the mother, as groaning under a similar burden to supplicate God for relief." Then heading, "Solution and cure to world's ills." "To Baba's devotees, the avatāra has similarly come to provide both the solution and the cure to a world living in terror of a nuclear holocaust. The false dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, puruṣa and deva , simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures, which prescribe . . ." Prabhupāda: What is that? Pradyumna: "The dichotomies." Prabhupāda: Dichot . . .? Pradyumna: Dichotomies Prabhupāda: What is that? Pradyumna: Dichotomy means some kind of distinction, to make a distinction. He said: "The dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, puruṣa and deva . . ." Differences or analysis of differences. ". . . simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures . . ." Prabhupāda: Why not? Pradyumna: ". . . which prescribe the assimilation of God in man and man in God as the basis of religion." Prabhupāda: This is another rascaldom. God is always distinct from man. Pradyumna: Sai Baba also quotes later . . . he is directly saying, also, later. Prabhupāda: What he says? Pradyumna: Now here's the quote. "Baba personifies this philosophy. As he told me, 'God is man and man is God. All of us have something of God, the divine spark, within us. All men are divine, like myself, with the spirit embodied in human flesh and bone. The only difference is that they are unaware of this Godhood.' " I'll get it for you. Prabhupāda: So? Pradyumna: Here he says: "The mission of the present avatāra is to make everybody realize that since the same God or divinity resides in everyone, people should respect, love, and . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no. If he resides in everyone, then why he has special claim? Pradyumna: Yes, well he says he has remembered. Prabhupāda: He remembers? How God can forget? Pradyumna: That he says. That he says here. He says that, "Take paddy or rice by way of an illustration. Every grain of rice is enclosed in a husk. You have to remove the husk to get the grain of rice. Now husk and rice both come from the same seed. Rice is the equivalent of God in man." Prabhupāda: But still husk is not rice. You cannot say husk is rice. Pradyumna: He says the husk . . . he says: "Rice is the equivalent of God in man, while the husk can be compared to desire which reduces God to man." Prabhupāda: No, no. Pradyumna: "Therefore my desire is life plus desire equals man. Life minus desire equals God." *Prabhupāda: (dictating) "You are desiring to become God. There cannot be no desire. But you're unceremoniously desiring to become God, although there is no proof in the śāstras . In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is accepted that the living entities are sparks of . . . part and parcel of God, Kṛṣṇa." *Pradyumna: "In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is accepted that the living entities . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . are part and parcel of God. But part is never equal to the whole." (break) Pradyumna: "So you can claim as a spark of God, as every living entity can claim, but you cannot claim as the . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . the Supreme Person with full power. That is misleading. You can show a little magic, as other magicians also can show . . ." Pradyumna: "You can show a little magic, as other magicians can also show." Prabhupāda: ". . . but you cannot show the full magic, as Kṛṣṇa displayed or Lord Rāmacandra displayed. Therefore your claim as a full power is completely false and blasphemous." Pradyumna: "Therefore your claim for full power is completely false . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . and blasphemous." In this way find out. Pradyumna: Completely Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Completely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Now someone may bring up the one point, they say: "Well, if an avatāra comes, if He must show all kinds of great opulences and powers," then he says: "sometimes the incarnation shows this, but sometimes, like when Lord Caitanya appeared, He didn't show viśvarūpa or . . ." *Prabhupāda: But He never claimed that "I am avatāra ." But we understand from the śāstric evidence. He never claimed. Rather, when He was addressed as Kṛṣṇa He blocked His ears, "You don't say like that." He never claimed. He fully displayed Himself as a devotee, not Bhagavān. Therefore Gaurāṅgavāda is illegal. Gaurāṅga*-nāgarī . That is illegal. Moha-vāda or something like that. *Pradyumna: Gaurāṅga*-nāgarī , mentioning Lord Caitanya in the role of Kṛṣṇa dancing with the . . . Prabhupāda: In this way, find out the faulty statement and give him proof. He can claim . . . hmm. That's all. Pradyumna: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) (Letter to Sai Baba) Pradyumna: This says: "God is an Indian." Puttaparthi. "God is an Indian. His contemporary avatāra . . ." Prabhupāda: Puttaparthi? What is that? Pradyumna: Puttaparthi is in Andhra. "His contemporary avatāra rests in the trinity of Sirti Baba, Sai Baba, and Prem Baba to come. So Satya Sai Baba, the second of the triple incarnation, asserted in the course of a marathon interview to add, 'In my present avatāra , I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity.' " Prabhupāda: So, to whom we shall address this letter? Pradyumna: Well, it depends where we want to send it for publishing. To this or to another magazine. Prabhupāda: He says that, "I'm avatāra ." So therefore it should be addressed to him. He says. So address to Satya Sai Baba. Where is he? At Bombay? Pradyumna: No, he stays at this Puttaparthi or in Bangalore. Prabhupāda: Puttaparthi . . . Pradyumna: That is a small village. Prabhupāda: Oh. Post office, Puttaparthi. And it is in, where? Bangalore? Pradyumna: That is in Andhra. *Prabhupāda: Andhra. Hmm. "Dear Sai Baba, just recently in the Blitz paper, published on"—give the date—"we are surprised to find one article, 'God is an Indian,' and you have claimed to become an incarnation of God to save the human society. What is the ground of your claiming as incarnation? And what you have done to save the human society? Will you explain for enlightenment of us? Or many of us? We have got the list of incarnations recorded in the Vedic scriptures and their respective activities also. So where is that record in the Vedic scripture about your appearing as incarnation? Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is fully described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . ." Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnationship, or . . . (indistinct) . . . what it should be? Pradyumna: Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation . . . Prabhupāda: There may be so many, but I mean to say Lord Kṛṣṇa is incarnation, so avatāratva . So what is the English, avatāratva ? *Pradyumna: The incarnation*-ness, or quality of being an incarnation. But that is not . . . the quality of being an incarnation is not . . . the most literal is incarnation-ness. *Prabhupāda: Therefore say that, "Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation*-ness is fully described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Similarly, Lord Rāmacandra's incarnation-ness or Lord Buddha's incarnation-ness, Lord Caitanya's incarnation-ness, we have got full information in the Vedic literatures." *Pradyumna: "Lord Rāma's incarnation*-ness, Lord Buddha's incarnation-ness . . ." Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya. Pradyumna: Oh. Prabhupāda: "Where is your incarnation is described? Will you kindly give the reference? Anyone can say like you, that one is incarnation, as it has become a fashion nowadays. But is that claim only is the proof of one's becoming incarnation? Some such unauthorized claim of becoming an incarnation is certainly ridiculous." Such . . . Pradyumna: ". . . unauthorized claim of one's becoming an incarnation . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . is certainly ridiculous. Then you have claimed to take form." What is he has written? Pradyumna: "Then you have claimed to take . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no. What he has written. Pradyumna: "In my present avatāra I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity." Prabhupāda: "So you have claimed to . . ." What is that? Again read it. Pradyumna: "I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity." *Prabhupāda: "So you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad*-gītā that God is never formless." Find out this verse, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ. Pradyumna: "Unintelligent men who know Me not think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Pradyumna: "Those who are worshipers of demigods have been described as less intelligent persons, and here the impersonalists are similarly described. Lord Kṛṣṇa in His personal form is here speaking before Arjuna, and still, due to ignorance, impersonalists argue that the Supreme Lord ultimately has no form. Yāmunācārya, a great devotee of the Lord in the disciplic succession from Rāmānujācārya, has written two very appropriate verses in this connection. He says: 'My dear Lord, devotees like Vyāsadeva and Nārada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing Vedānta and Upaniṣads and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead.' In the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is stated that the Personality of Godhead cannot be understood simply by study of the Vedānta literature. Only by the mercy of the Supreme Lord can the Personality of the Supreme be known. Therefore in this verse it is clearly stated that not only the worshipers of the demigods are less intelligent, but those nondevotees who are engaged in Vedānta and speculation on Vedic literature . . ." Prabhupāda: You can give up to that Yāmunācārya's quotation. What you have written? Pradyumna: So far? Everything? Or just . . . "Only, is one's word only . . ." Prabhupāda: What you have written. Pradyumna: "Dear Sai Baba, just recently . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Last what you have written. *Pradyumna: "Similarly, Lord Rāma's incarnation, Lord Buddha's incarnation, Lord Caitanya's incarnation*-ness, we have got full information from the Vedic scriptures. Where is your incarnation described? Will you kindly give the reference? Anyone can say like you, that one is an incarnation, as it has become a fashion nowadays. But is that claim only the proof of one's becoming an incarnation? Such unauthorized claim of one's becoming an incarnation is certainly ridiculous. Then you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad-gītā that God is never formless." *Prabhupāda: (dictating) "Only the rascals and less intelligent class of men think that God is formless, and when He incarnates, He takes a particular form. In this connection, a verse from Yāmunācārya may be quoted as follows." You have quoted the Bhagavad*-gītā ? That quote? Pradyumna: Well, it doesn't mention the Sanskrit here of that Yāmunācārya verse. *Prabhupāda: No, no. "In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said"—what you have written? Pradyumna: Oh. We can put the Sanskrit, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannam (BG 7.24). Prabhupāda: No, what you have written here? *Pradyumna: "Such unauthorized claim of one's becoming . . . then you have claimed to take a form of the formless God, but we see in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . ." Prabhupāda: That you have to quote. *Pradyumna: Yes. So, Bhagavad*-gītā 7.24, Sanskrit and translation. "But we see in the Bhagavad-gītā . . ." Prabhupāda: Read it. Pradyumna: "Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme." So ". . . that God is never formless. Only the rascals and less intelligent class of men think that God is formless and when He incarnates He takes a particular form. In this connection a verse from Yāmunācārya may be quoted as follows." Prabhupāda: So what is Yāmunacārya's quotation? Pradyumna: "My dear Lord, devotees like Vyāsadeva and Nārada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Prabhupāda: You have to quote that verse and the meaning. Pradyumna: But the Sanskrit wasn't give here. Prabhupāda: The Sanskrit is there. Pradyumna: No, but this verse from Yāmunācārya. *Prabhupāda: Oh. You'll find the Sanskrit in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Pradyumna: Oh. Which place? *Prabhupāda: In the Ādi*-līlā. Tam . It begins with tam . You can find out. Call, call him. (bell rings) Read. The Sanskrit verse is not . . . Pradyumna: No, it's not quoted here. Prabhupāda: Tam paribhāvita , like that. There is a verse. Pradyumna: Oh. I will find it. *Prabhupāda: Ādi*-līlā. Hari-śauri: Which volume? *Prabhupāda: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Hari-śauri: First volume? Prabhupāda: I think. There is, what is called, index? *Pradyumna: Yes, for Ādi*-līlā ? Where's the verse index? Hari-śauri: Which verse is it? If you give me the verse I can . . . *Pradyumna: It begins tam paribhāvita. T*-a-m. T-a-m. Tam paribhāvita something. Prabhupāda: You can bring here. Then? Pradyumna: So this quote goes on. "But those who in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing the Vedānta and the *Upaniṣads* and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead." Prabhupāda: "So in this connection, the statement of *Bhāgavatam* is especially important. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Brahman is impersonal, Paramātmā is localized, and Bhagavān is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead . . ." Pradyumna: "Brahman is the impersonal." *Prabhupāda: "Brahman is impersonal." Not "the." "Paramātmā is localized, and Bhagavān is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa after hearing Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa as follows." Quote this, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma (BG 10.12). Find out. No. Find out in the book. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Puruṣaṁ śāśvatam . . . Pradyumna: Puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam. Prabhupāda: Divyam . "So here Arjuna addresses Lord Kṛṣṇa as śāśvataṁ puruṣam, eternally the Personality of Godhead. It is never admitted that Supreme Lord is originally imperson. Puruṣam ." I have described puruṣam ? Yes. What you have written? *Pradyumna: "When Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa after hearing Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa as follows: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma (BG 10.12), etc. Here Kṛṣṇa addresses . . . here Arjuna addresses Kṛṣṇa as śāśvataṁ puruṣam , or the eternal Personality of Godhead. It is never admitted that the Supreme Lord is originally impersonal." Prabhupāda: Then, you read the other verses. Param . . . Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Then? Pradyumna: Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve devarṣir nāradas tathā . Prabhupāda: You have to quote this. Then? Read. Pradyumna: Translation? Prabhupāda: No, no. That you have to give a quotation and . . . then? What is next verse? *Pradyumna: In Bhagavad*-gītā after this? Prabhupāda: Āhus tvām, then next, what is next verse? Pradyumna: Ah, "Please tell me in detail of Your divine . . ." Prabhupāda: That's all right. Next. Pradyumna: "How should I meditate on You?" Prabhupāda: That's all right. Next. Pradyumna: "Tell me in detail, O Janārdana, of Your mighty potencies and glories, for I never tire of hearing . . ." Prabhupāda: The point is that, "Your personality cannot be understood without Your mercy." There is a verse. (Pradyumna looks for verse) Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve . Find out that verse. Pradyumna: Aham ? Prabhupāda: Āhus . Pradyumna: Oh, āhus . Prabhupāda: Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ. You read just now. Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: Next verse. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Vyaktyam ? Pradyumna: Vyaktim. Na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ . "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality." Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. Pradyumna: Oh, it says: *Hari-śauri: There's no verse index in any of the Ādi*-līlā . Prabhupāda: There is, but we are missing. Pradyumna: I have the Bengali. Prabhupāda: "The all ācāryas say that Your personality, although there are so many evidences in śāstra and authorized persons, still, the rascals cannot understand." So here is another verse, āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve . Pradyumna: So do you want to quote this verse? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Must quote. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: (dictating) "So one has to accept the statement of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, how He is originally the puruṣa , or person. Impersonal Brahman is expansion of the rays of His personal body, exactly like the sunshine is expansion of the rays of the sun*-god, Vivasvān. Vivasvān is a person in the sun globe, and Kṛṣṇa is also a person who spoke the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā long, long years before He spoke the same to Arjuna. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). Therefore the conclusion is that originally God is always a person. Impersonal Brahman is emanation from the personal God. In other words, God, personal God, is not from impersonal Brahman, but impersonal Brahman is from the personal God. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā as follows." Pradyumna: "Impersonal Brahman is an emanation of the personal God. It is not . . . it is not that the personal God is an emanation of . . . from . . . or it is that impersonal Brahman is an emanation. It is not that the personal God is an emanation of impersonal Brahman." Prabhupāda: "Impersonal Brahman is resting on the personal God, exactly like illumination of light is resting on the bulb. Not that the bulb is resting on the illuminated light." Pradyumna: "Exactly like illumination of light is resting . . ." *Prabhupāda: ". . . on the bulb, electric bulb. Not the bulb is resting on the illumination. Besides that, we learn from Bhagavad*-gītā , Second Chapter . . ." Find out that verse, "It is not that we were . . ." Pradyumna: Na tv evāham ? Prabhupāda: Ah. Pradyumna: "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." Prabhupāda: "So Kṛṣṇa has personally said to Arjuna that in the past He was person." Pradyumna: So "Kṛṣṇa, in person"? Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. "Kṛṣṇa, as a person, says to Arjuna that both of them existed in the past as person, and they'll continue to remain person in the future." Pradyumna: "Both of them existed in the past as person, and both of them shall continue to . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . remain as person in the future. So without knowing all this knowledge, a mūḍha accepts the incarnation of God as coming from imperson. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). Under this heading you have proved yourself to become a mūḍha . And how a mūḍha , or an ass, can become the incarnation of God?" Then? Read that Blitz paper, one after another. *Pradyumna: Then, this is the end of his quote, and then the editor, the writer, is speaking. "This may appear an extraordinarily controversial claim to those unfamiliar with the spiritual depths of Hindu religio*-philosophy. The latter totally accepts the avatāra concept, which broadly means the descent of the divine principle into human affairs. In the Bhagavad-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa intervenes to save . . ." Prabhupāda: That is the editor's. *Pradyumna: Yes, this is the editor's. "In the Bhagavad*-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa intervenes to save humanity from evil forces. The Purāṇas personify earth, the mother, as groaning under a similar burden to supplicate God for relief." Then heading, "Solution and cure to world's ills." "To Baba's devotees, the avatāra has similarly come to provide both the solution and the cure to a world living in terror of a nuclear holocaust. The false dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, puruṣa and deva , simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures, which prescribe . . ." Prabhupāda: What is that? Pradyumna: "The dichotomies." Prabhupāda: Dichot . . .? Pradyumna: Dichotomies Prabhupāda: What is that? Pradyumna: Dichotomy means some kind of distinction, to make a distinction. He said: "The dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, puruṣa and deva . . ." Differences or analysis of differences. ". . . simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures . . ." Prabhupāda: Why not? Pradyumna: ". . . which prescribe the assimilation of God in man and man in God as the basis of religion." Prabhupāda: This is another rascaldom. God is always distinct from man. Pradyumna: Sai Baba also quotes later . . . he is directly saying, also, later. Prabhupāda: What he says? Pradyumna: Now here's the quote. "Baba personifies this philosophy. As he told me, 'God is man and man is God. All of us have something of God, the divine spark, within us. All men are divine, like myself, with the spirit embodied in human flesh and bone. The only difference is that they are unaware of this Godhood.' " I'll get it for you. Prabhupāda: So? Pradyumna: Here he says: "The mission of the present avatāra is to make everybody realize that since the same God or divinity resides in everyone, people should respect, love, and . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no. If he resides in everyone, then why he has special claim? Pradyumna: Yes, well he says he has remembered. Prabhupāda: He remembers? How God can forget? Pradyumna: That he says. That he says here. He says that, "Take paddy or rice by way of an illustration. Every grain of rice is enclosed in a husk. You have to remove the husk to get the grain of rice. Now husk and rice both come from the same seed. Rice is the equivalent of God in man." Prabhupāda: But still husk is not rice. You cannot say husk is rice. Pradyumna: He says the husk . . . he says: "Rice is the equivalent of God in man, while the husk can be compared to desire which reduces God to man." Prabhupāda: No, no. Pradyumna: "Therefore my desire is life plus desire equals man. Life minus desire equals God." *Prabhupāda: (dictating) "You are desiring to become God. There cannot be no desire. But you're unceremoniously desiring to become God, although there is no proof in the śāstras . In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is accepted that the living entities are sparks of . . . part and parcel of God, Kṛṣṇa." *Pradyumna: "In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is accepted that the living entities . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . are part and parcel of God. But part is never equal to the whole." (break) Pradyumna: "So you can claim as a spark of God, as every living entity can claim, but you cannot claim as the . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . the Supreme Person with full power. That is misleading. You can show a little magic, as other magicians also can show . . ." Pradyumna: "You can show a little magic, as other magicians can also show." Prabhupāda: ". . . but you cannot show the full magic, as Kṛṣṇa displayed or Lord Rāmacandra displayed. Therefore your claim as a full power is completely false and blasphemous." Pradyumna: "Therefore your claim for full power is completely false . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . and blasphemous." In this way find out. Pradyumna: Completely Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Completely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Now someone may bring up the one point, they say: "Well, if an avatāra comes, if He must show all kinds of great opulences and powers," then he says: "sometimes the incarnation shows this, but sometimes, like when Lord Caitanya appeared, He didn't show viśvarūpa or . . ." *Prabhupāda: But He never claimed that "I am avatāra ." But we understand from the śāstric evidence. He never claimed. Rather, when He was addressed as Kṛṣṇa He blocked His ears, "You don't say like that." He never claimed. He fully displayed Himself as a devotee, not Bhagavān. Therefore Gaurāṅgavāda is illegal. Gaurāṅga*-nāgarī . That is illegal. Moha-vāda or something like that. *Pradyumna: Gaurāṅga*-nāgarī , mentioning Lord Caitanya in the role of Kṛṣṇa dancing with the . . . Prabhupāda: In this way, find out the faulty statement and give him proof. He can claim . . . hmm. That's all. Pradyumna: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Prabhupāda: All the Vaiṣṇavas, they are expert. Just like Rūpa, Sanātana, expert managment . . . (indistinct) . . . expert, even in worldly affairs. Not that "I am so much big devotee that I cannot manage worldly affairs." Expert. Must be expert. Dakṣa. (pause) Prabhupāda: So she can give me the fruits now. So . . . (break) . . . intelligent policy to kill India's spiritual status. Haṁsadūta: To kill India's spiritual status? Prabhupāda: That was their policy. Because there was one Britisher politician, Lord Macaulay. His report was . . . he studied the whole Indian situation. They were very expert politicians. So he reported that "If you keep Indians as Indians, you'll never be able to rule over them. They must be trained up in such a way that they would think their own culture as useless; this Western culture is very good. That impression must be there. Otherwise, you cannot rule over them." So the education and everything was going on very silently on this principle. Haṁsadūta: Imperceptibly they introduced this. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is their administration. And that was going on for the last two hundred years. So India lost. At last moment is . . . (break) . . . educated persons, they lost. And the mass of people, they were not educated. They have not lost, but they don't find any good example by the leaders. Haṁsadūta: No encouragement. Prabhupāda: No encouragement. They are simply staying somehow or other in their original culture, but there is no encouragement by the leaders. But the leaders have lost. This is the position. Just like Jawaharlal Nehru, he was a complete rascal about Indian culture. He did not think that Indian culture has any value. Therefore he wrote the book, Discovery of India . You know that? He has . . . it is little popular. Discovery of India. So long India was not discovered by opiate or something like, as the Russians say. Now it is now discovered. And that its leaders have to become Anglicized or Europeanized; industry, the Western way of living, eating, and everything. Pollution. Everything. Harikeśa: Abortion. *Prabhupāda: Yes, also. Otherwise, we have seen in our childhood how happy people were there. Simple. If one has five rupees' income per month, he's happy. I've seen it. Husband, wife, a small family, if he has got five rupees' income, they can maintain very nicely, happily. Why not? Suppose he has got five rupees' income. The rice was selling at four rupees. So two person, say one*-fourth kg, one-fourth share each. A gentleman cannot eat more than that. So means half a share. And the whole month, fifteen share. It is about one rupee eight annas . And further, one rupees eight annas add for vegetables and other things. With three rupees they can maintain, the husband and wife. And two rupees still there, he can spend for other purposes. I have seen it. Fresh vegetables, rice, this and . . . just like with banana leaf. The pots were of earthen, the wife is cooking, and she's utilizing dry foliage as fuel, a little temperature, everything is cooked. The husband takes one banana leaf and spreads, and the wife gives sufficient rice, vegetables. And things were so cheap, I have seen it. And fresh. Haṁsadūta: Yes, everything, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Anything fresh. Any cultivator, he has got little land surrounding his house, and he's growing vegetable like squash, chilis, and some spinage . . . spinach? Haṁsadūta: Spinach, śāka . Prabhupāda: Yes. And . . . Harikeśa: Eggplant. *Prabhupāda: Eggplant. And this banana. So whatever he's grown he takes in a basket, goes to the market, immediately sold. And they're all fresh. Collected in the morning, and it is sold by eight o'clock. All fresh vegetables. There was no export, there was no facility of transport. These rascals introduced transport, big*-scale transport, this railway. There was no railway. So transport means this villager, instead of selling locally or one mile away, he will dispatch in Calcutta. The Calcutta people, they are sitting on table and smoking, and printing paper money and exploit. Haṁsadūta: We had this experience when we were traveling with our bus from Calcutta to Vṛndāvana. We would want to buy watermelon from people who were growing right on the bank of the river, and he would have huge piles. And he would say: "No, I'm not selling. I'm transporting these to Delhi, where one cannot get watermelon." He's getting five times the price he would get in his local . . . Prabhupāda: And from Vṛndāvana, we have seen, they are exporting that drumbeats? Vṛndāvana? Hari-śauri: Drumsticks. Prabhupāda: Huh? Drumstick. So the transport is a dangerous thing. Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is a scheme. Prabhupāda: A local man cannot get. He's starving. And the man in big cities, he's doing nothing, he simply has got paper to sign, and paper money he's attracting. All production, and they are starving. This is modern civilization. Everything—milk, vegetable, fish, everything, this chānā . Otherwise, within the village you can get everything. Village economy, everything very cheap. And as soon as they got these transport facilities, the local men, they could not eat, and these lazy rascals, they are getting everything. Big, big cities like Calcutta, Bombay, they, millions of population, they are not producing anything. The producer is different man. They are simply artificially cheating them by paper money, and they take it. This is modern civilization. Haṁsadūta: And on the basis of this transporting of food, other industries grow. Like for instance packing. Sometimes the package costs more than the item which is being packaged. Prabhupāda: Especially in your country. Packing is more important than the . . . they sent me some presentation in a huge package. Haṁsadūta: Consequently, those persons who are farmers, they become discouraged. Prabhupāda: Now it has become a problem how to throw these packings. Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is another problem. Hari-śauri: Yes. Plastic they can't dispose of, glass. Prabhupāda: Simply creating problems. Lavana haila ithe gatila jagya . This modern civilization, they could not make any profit. They have created some problems, that's all. Very dangerous civilization. Haṁsadūta: There was one writer, he wrote a book about the cities, these big modern cities. And he said that in the future the price of labor will become so enormous that to break down the old buildings in these cities, which have been built to become obsolete, will be impossible. And the whole place will become swamp land by that. (end) Prabhupāda: All the Vaiṣṇavas, they are expert. Just like Rūpa, Sanātana, expert managment . . . (indistinct) . . . expert, even in worldly affairs. Not that "I am so much big devotee that I cannot manage worldly affairs." Expert. Must be expert. Dakṣa. (pause) Prabhupāda: So she can give me the fruits now. So . . . (break) . . . intelligent policy to kill India's spiritual status. Haṁsadūta: To kill India's spiritual status? Prabhupāda: That was their policy. Because there was one Britisher politician, Lord Macaulay. His report was . . . he studied the whole Indian situation. They were very expert politicians. So he reported that "If you keep Indians as Indians, you'll never be able to rule over them. They must be trained up in such a way that they would think their own culture as useless; this Western culture is very good. That impression must be there. Otherwise, you cannot rule over them." So the education and everything was going on very silently on this principle. Haṁsadūta: Imperceptibly they introduced this. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is their administration. And that was going on for the last two hundred years. So India lost. At last moment is . . . (break) . . . educated persons, they lost. And the mass of people, they were not educated. They have not lost, but they don't find any good example by the leaders. Haṁsadūta: No encouragement. Prabhupāda: No encouragement. They are simply staying somehow or other in their original culture, but there is no encouragement by the leaders. But the leaders have lost. This is the position. Just like Jawaharlal Nehru, he was a complete rascal about Indian culture. He did not think that Indian culture has any value. Therefore he wrote the book, Discovery of India . You know that? He has . . . it is little popular. Discovery of India. So long India was not discovered by opiate or something like, as the Russians say. Now it is now discovered. And that its leaders have to become Anglicized or Europeanized; industry, the Western way of living, eating, and everything. Pollution. Everything. Harikeśa: Abortion. *Prabhupāda: Yes, also. Otherwise, we have seen in our childhood how happy people were there. Simple. If one has five rupees' income per month, he's happy. I've seen it. Husband, wife, a small family, if he has got five rupees' income, they can maintain very nicely, happily. Why not? Suppose he has got five rupees' income. The rice was selling at four rupees. So two person, say one*-fourth kg, one-fourth share each. A gentleman cannot eat more than that. So means half a share. And the whole month, fifteen share. It is about one rupee eight annas . And further, one rupees eight annas add for vegetables and other things. With three rupees they can maintain, the husband and wife. And two rupees still there, he can spend for other purposes. I have seen it. Fresh vegetables, rice, this and . . . just like with banana leaf. The pots were of earthen, the wife is cooking, and she's utilizing dry foliage as fuel, a little temperature, everything is cooked. The husband takes one banana leaf and spreads, and the wife gives sufficient rice, vegetables. And things were so cheap, I have seen it. And fresh. Haṁsadūta: Yes, everything, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Anything fresh. Any cultivator, he has got little land surrounding his house, and he's growing vegetable like squash, chilis, and some spinage . . . spinach? Haṁsadūta: Spinach, śāka . Prabhupāda: Yes. And . . . Harikeśa: Eggplant. *Prabhupāda: Eggplant. And this banana. So whatever he's grown he takes in a basket, goes to the market, immediately sold. And they're all fresh. Collected in the morning, and it is sold by eight o'clock. All fresh vegetables. There was no export, there was no facility of transport. These rascals introduced transport, big*-scale transport, this railway. There was no railway. So transport means this villager, instead of selling locally or one mile away, he will dispatch in Calcutta. The Calcutta people, they are sitting on table and smoking, and printing paper money and exploit. Haṁsadūta: We had this experience when we were traveling with our bus from Calcutta to Vṛndāvana. We would want to buy watermelon from people who were growing right on the bank of the river, and he would have huge piles. And he would say: "No, I'm not selling. I'm transporting these to Delhi, where one cannot get watermelon." He's getting five times the price he would get in his local . . . Prabhupāda: And from Vṛndāvana, we have seen, they are exporting that drumbeats? Vṛndāvana? Hari-śauri: Drumsticks. Prabhupāda: Huh? Drumstick. So the transport is a dangerous thing. Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is a scheme. Prabhupāda: A local man cannot get. He's starving. And the man in big cities, he's doing nothing, he simply has got paper to sign, and paper money he's attracting. All production, and they are starving. This is modern civilization. Everything—milk, vegetable, fish, everything, this chānā . Otherwise, within the village you can get everything. Village economy, everything very cheap. And as soon as they got these transport facilities, the local men, they could not eat, and these lazy rascals, they are getting everything. Big, big cities like Calcutta, Bombay, they, millions of population, they are not producing anything. The producer is different man. They are simply artificially cheating them by paper money, and they take it. This is modern civilization. Haṁsadūta: And on the basis of this transporting of food, other industries grow. Like for instance packing. Sometimes the package costs more than the item which is being packaged. Prabhupāda: Especially in your country. Packing is more important than the . . . they sent me some presentation in a huge package. Haṁsadūta: Consequently, those persons who are farmers, they become discouraged. Prabhupāda: Now it has become a problem how to throw these packings. Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is another problem. Hari-śauri: Yes. Plastic they can't dispose of, glass. Prabhupāda: Simply creating problems. Lavana haila ithe gatila jagya . This modern civilization, they could not make any profit. They have created some problems, that's all. Very dangerous civilization. Haṁsadūta: There was one writer, he wrote a book about the cities, these big modern cities. And he said that in the future the price of labor will become so enormous that to break down the old buildings in these cities, which have been built to become obsolete, will be impossible. And the whole place will become swamp land by that. (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . one horse within the mouth—that is God. One hill. One Pūtanā, sucking the breast, her life goes. That is God. Why shall I take some cheap God? We are not so foolish. Here is the . . . so many great saintly persons hearing about God. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva*-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ ( SB 1.2.17). They are fools, hearing about Kṛṣṇa? Such great, great personalities? And Śukadeva Gosvāmī is speaking. Are they fools? All of them fools? One, two may be fool. They were wholesale fools? All the great personalities, they're all fools? Asita, Devala, Vyāsa, Nārada—all big personalities—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu—they're all fools? I may be fool. They are not fools. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Why shall I accept a rascal God? Varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ (SB 2.1.1). "Oh, you want to hear about Kṛṣṇa?" Varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ . Śukadeva was praising: "Oh, glorious, you have taken . . . yes." Here is God. Breathing, and innumerable universes are coming. Here is God. Sleeping and breathing is not unnatural. He is also— nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ ( Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13)—like us. But like not us. He can breathe and . . . that is the difference. Breathing is common. I breathe, He breathes. That's all right. But His breathing, my breathing is not the same breathing. He eats; I eat. That's all right. But when He eats, Mother Yaśodā sees all the universes are within Him. *They cannot understand this. That we are equal, that's all right, but there is difference. So far I am a living being, He's also a living being, but He's supreme living being. How? Because I breathe, some dust comes and goes out, and when He breathes some universes come out. This is the difference. So because He is breathing and I am breathing, therefore equal? No. Paśyaty acakṣuḥ . He sees, but not like us. Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). He's seeing every particular thing, anywhere. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu. I can see within my limit, or I can feel pains and pleasure within my . . . but He knows everything, everywhere. Sarva-kṣetreṣu. And because I cannot become like Him, therefore Māyāvādīs say kalpana , "This is imagination." He wants to make God like himself, and he wants to become like God. Therefore all description about God he thinks imagination, kalpana. Kalpana. Dr. Frog. Huh? "More than this water, the . . .? How it is possible? Atlantic Ocean, very, very big. What is that big? Maybe four feet, five?" Yes. Otherwise kalpana . It it is not within his "feet" estimation, then he's kalpana , imagination. This is their knowledge. I can think of three feet, four feet, five feet, ten feet, hundred feet—like that. And when I'm informed, "No, no, it is unlimited feet." "Ah, this is kalpana ." This is going on. *So, what other news? I have to send one letter to the governor. (break) Sūtyām abhijāta*-kovidāḥ. Yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan vipra mahad-guṇas tathā (SB 1.16.1). Where this class of literature is now? Yathā sūtyā , in the maternity home or maternity room, sūtyā. Abhijāta-kovidāḥ , the astrologers who can estimate the newly born child's destiny. Whatever they predicted, according to them, yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan . They said that, "This child will be like this"—exactly he became. Parīkṣid dvija-varya-śikṣayā, and being trained up by first-class brāhmaṇas , and the child came perfectly the king. Where is that king? Hari-śauri: There're no kings. *Prabhupāda: Where is that president? They're all drunkards, woman*-hunters, meat-eaters. Exactly according to prediction he became a young man, and he was entrusted with kingdom, "Now you rule." (sings verse) Each verse is a song. I wanted our students should do that. Hari-śauri: To learn how to sing them nicely. To learn how to sing them? *Prabhupāda: Yes. I can give them the tune. (Sanskrit) (break) . . . ghnantaṁ go*-mithunaṁ padā. This is Kali-yuga's king. Nṛpa-liṅga : dressed like king. Nṛpa-liṅga-dharam , but śūdra. Nṛpa-liṅga-dharaṁ śūdraṁ ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā (SB 1.16.4). Very expert in cow killing. Hari-śauri: That's a very accurate prediction. *Prabhupāda: Third*-class, fourth-class men, dressed like president and king. Business: plunder money from the citizens and kill cow. (pause) *Prabhupāda: Nineteen sixty*-five, 17 September, I landed at Boston. Hari-śauri: You've done a lot of things since then. (laughs) Devotee: Changed the world. Prabhupāda: Much water has gone down. Hari-śauri: (indistinct exchange with another devotee) (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . one horse within the mouth—that is God. One hill. One Pūtanā, sucking the breast, her life goes. That is God. Why shall I take some cheap God? We are not so foolish. Here is the . . . so many great saintly persons hearing about God. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva*-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ ( SB 1.2.17). They are fools, hearing about Kṛṣṇa? Such great, great personalities? And Śukadeva Gosvāmī is speaking. Are they fools? All of them fools? One, two may be fool. They were wholesale fools? All the great personalities, they're all fools? Asita, Devala, Vyāsa, Nārada—all big personalities—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu—they're all fools? I may be fool. They are not fools. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Why shall I accept a rascal God? Varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ (SB 2.1.1). "Oh, you want to hear about Kṛṣṇa?" Varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ . Śukadeva was praising: "Oh, glorious, you have taken . . . yes." Here is God. Breathing, and innumerable universes are coming. Here is God. Sleeping and breathing is not unnatural. He is also— nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ ( Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13)—like us. But like not us. He can breathe and . . . that is the difference. Breathing is common. I breathe, He breathes. That's all right. But His breathing, my breathing is not the same breathing. He eats; I eat. That's all right. But when He eats, Mother Yaśodā sees all the universes are within Him. *They cannot understand this. That we are equal, that's all right, but there is difference. So far I am a living being, He's also a living being, but He's supreme living being. How? Because I breathe, some dust comes and goes out, and when He breathes some universes come out. This is the difference. So because He is breathing and I am breathing, therefore equal? No. Paśyaty acakṣuḥ . He sees, but not like us. Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). He's seeing every particular thing, anywhere. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu. I can see within my limit, or I can feel pains and pleasure within my . . . but He knows everything, everywhere. Sarva-kṣetreṣu. And because I cannot become like Him, therefore Māyāvādīs say kalpana , "This is imagination." He wants to make God like himself, and he wants to become like God. Therefore all description about God he thinks imagination, kalpana. Kalpana. Dr. Frog. Huh? "More than this water, the . . .? How it is possible? Atlantic Ocean, very, very big. What is that big? Maybe four feet, five?" Yes. Otherwise kalpana . It it is not within his "feet" estimation, then he's kalpana , imagination. This is their knowledge. I can think of three feet, four feet, five feet, ten feet, hundred feet—like that. And when I'm informed, "No, no, it is unlimited feet." "Ah, this is kalpana ." This is going on. *So, what other news? I have to send one letter to the governor. (break) Sūtyām abhijāta*-kovidāḥ. Yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan vipra mahad-guṇas tathā (SB 1.16.1). Where this class of literature is now? Yathā sūtyā , in the maternity home or maternity room, sūtyā. Abhijāta-kovidāḥ , the astrologers who can estimate the newly born child's destiny. Whatever they predicted, according to them, yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan . They said that, "This child will be like this"—exactly he became. Parīkṣid dvija-varya-śikṣayā, and being trained up by first-class brāhmaṇas , and the child came perfectly the king. Where is that king? Hari-śauri: There're no kings. *Prabhupāda: Where is that president? They're all drunkards, woman*-hunters, meat-eaters. Exactly according to prediction he became a young man, and he was entrusted with kingdom, "Now you rule." (sings verse) Each verse is a song. I wanted our students should do that. Hari-śauri: To learn how to sing them nicely. To learn how to sing them? *Prabhupāda: Yes. I can give them the tune. (Sanskrit) (break) . . . ghnantaṁ go*-mithunaṁ padā. This is Kali-yuga's king. Nṛpa-liṅga : dressed like king. Nṛpa-liṅga-dharam , but śūdra. Nṛpa-liṅga-dharaṁ śūdraṁ ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā (SB 1.16.4). Very expert in cow killing. Hari-śauri: That's a very accurate prediction. *Prabhupāda: Third*-class, fourth-class men, dressed like president and king. Business: plunder money from the citizens and kill cow. (pause) *Prabhupāda: Nineteen sixty*-five, 17 September, I landed at Boston. Hari-śauri: You've done a lot of things since then. (laughs) Devotee: Changed the world. Prabhupāda: Much water has gone down. Hari-śauri: (indistinct exchange with another devotee) (end) Prabhupāda: I was living with servant and two sons. So I helped to start . . . (break) . . . took from my friends, I collected some money and . . . so other important members said: "Why Abhaya Bābu is living separately? He should be the president of the Bombay." I never said, but they said. I was living separately. Then Prabhupāda requested, I mean to say, pleaded in my behalf so many things. He said three words, "It is better that he is living outside your company. He will do. When time will come, he'll do himself everything. You haven't got to recommend him." These very words. (break) . . . Kṛṣṇa require any president or any GBC. He's giving chance to everyone, that's all. Otherwise thousands of presidents and thousands of GBC may come and go, His work will go on. Kṛṣṇa is complete Himself. He doesn't require anyone's help. That is Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . sei hetu pracāra . One who has got life, he can preach. One is dead, what he can do? He used to say. Haṁsadūta: And I'm convinced, Prabhupāda, that in this temple, right here, you can make every week at least two, three Life Members, and you can sell thousands of rupees' worth of books. Yesterday I started one man, this boy Ikṣvāku from Germany. I said: "Just go around and greet people and show them around and sell them books." And the first few hours he sold seventy rupees' worth of books. And if I have a few people who just walk around and they walk right up to the guests and say: "How do you do? My name is so and so. I come from New York. What is your name? Where do you come from?" Prabhupāda: Last night all visitors came, all respectable gentlemen. Haṁsadūta: Last night four people came, they were all big businessmen. One man had been working in a big business in Germany. He spoke German perfectly well. He was an Indian man. He lives in Agra. And so many people. Because Vṛndāvana is the heart of India, every Indian comes once in his lifetime to Vṛndāvana . . . Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . if not more times. And everyone will come to our temple. Prabhupāda: Due to Vṛndāvana, our temple is advertised all over India. Everyone says. Haṁsadūta: We haven't even got to go out. We have simply to receive people nicely. *Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . from Vṛndāvana. I was residing here after retirement. That Rādhā*-Dāmodara, they are being paid monthly? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: You got the receipt? Akṣayānanda: No, I don't have it in my care. Prabhupāda: Huh? Akṣayānanda: I don't have it personally. Prabhupāda: Then who keeps it? Akṣayānanda: I don't know. I have to check. Prabhupāda: You do not know? Who is paying? Akṣayānanda: I'll check with Viśvambhara. I don't know, to be quite honest. Prabhupāda: Huh? Akṣayānanda: To be perfectly honest, I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not know? How is that? Akṣayānanda: Because I've been away so much, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All right. Still, you should know what is this and what is . . . Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . he was going to cleanse these rooms. So whether this is going on or not, you do not know. Then who knows it? Akṣayānanda: Viśvambhara will know, because he took full charge in my absence for all these things. *Haṁsadūta: You want me to take care of it? Your rooms at Rādhā*-Dāmodara? You want me to take care that they're cleaned and kept? Prabhupāda: That was being done. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I had it being done once a week. Prabhupāda: So nobody knows what is being done or . . . (break) So one was to control horses. So he became very much anxious, "What kind of whip I shall have to keep?" Haṁsadūta: First he has to get a horse. Prabhupāda: "Then, first of all, rascal, where is your horse?" (laughs) He became very much anxious, "What kind of whip?" Haṁsadūta: Okay. I'll get the horses. Prabhupāda: And anyone who can purchase a horse, he can very easily purchase any whip. Not that we shall be very much anxious for the whip first. First of all, let us have a horse. The difficulty is that no horse is coming. That is the difficulty. Attract horse, and you'll find so many. Haṁsadūta: Okay. (end) Prabhupāda: I was living with servant and two sons. So I helped to start . . . (break) . . . took from my friends, I collected some money and . . . so other important members said: "Why Abhaya Bābu is living separately? He should be the president of the Bombay." I never said, but they said. I was living separately. Then Prabhupāda requested, I mean to say, pleaded in my behalf so many things. He said three words, "It is better that he is living outside your company. He will do. When time will come, he'll do himself everything. You haven't got to recommend him." These very words. (break) . . . Kṛṣṇa require any president or any GBC. He's giving chance to everyone, that's all. Otherwise thousands of presidents and thousands of GBC may come and go, His work will go on. Kṛṣṇa is complete Himself. He doesn't require anyone's help. That is Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . sei hetu pracāra . One who has got life, he can preach. One is dead, what he can do? He used to say. Haṁsadūta: And I'm convinced, Prabhupāda, that in this temple, right here, you can make every week at least two, three Life Members, and you can sell thousands of rupees' worth of books. Yesterday I started one man, this boy Ikṣvāku from Germany. I said: "Just go around and greet people and show them around and sell them books." And the first few hours he sold seventy rupees' worth of books. And if I have a few people who just walk around and they walk right up to the guests and say: "How do you do? My name is so and so. I come from New York. What is your name? Where do you come from?" Prabhupāda: Last night all visitors came, all respectable gentlemen. Haṁsadūta: Last night four people came, they were all big businessmen. One man had been working in a big business in Germany. He spoke German perfectly well. He was an Indian man. He lives in Agra. And so many people. Because Vṛndāvana is the heart of India, every Indian comes once in his lifetime to Vṛndāvana . . . Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . if not more times. And everyone will come to our temple. Prabhupāda: Due to Vṛndāvana, our temple is advertised all over India. Everyone says. Haṁsadūta: We haven't even got to go out. We have simply to receive people nicely. *Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . from Vṛndāvana. I was residing here after retirement. That Rādhā*-Dāmodara, they are being paid monthly? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: You got the receipt? Akṣayānanda: No, I don't have it in my care. Prabhupāda: Huh? Akṣayānanda: I don't have it personally. Prabhupāda: Then who keeps it? Akṣayānanda: I don't know. I have to check. Prabhupāda: You do not know? Who is paying? Akṣayānanda: I'll check with Viśvambhara. I don't know, to be quite honest. Prabhupāda: Huh? Akṣayānanda: To be perfectly honest, I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not know? How is that? Akṣayānanda: Because I've been away so much, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All right. Still, you should know what is this and what is . . . Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . he was going to cleanse these rooms. So whether this is going on or not, you do not know. Then who knows it? Akṣayānanda: Viśvambhara will know, because he took full charge in my absence for all these things. *Haṁsadūta: You want me to take care of it? Your rooms at Rādhā*-Dāmodara? You want me to take care that they're cleaned and kept? Prabhupāda: That was being done. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I had it being done once a week. Prabhupāda: So nobody knows what is being done or . . . (break) So one was to control horses. So he became very much anxious, "What kind of whip I shall have to keep?" Haṁsadūta: First he has to get a horse. Prabhupāda: "Then, first of all, rascal, where is your horse?" (laughs) He became very much anxious, "What kind of whip?" Haṁsadūta: Okay. I'll get the horses. Prabhupāda: And anyone who can purchase a horse, he can very easily purchase any whip. Not that we shall be very much anxious for the whip first. First of all, let us have a horse. The difficulty is that no horse is coming. That is the difficulty. Attract horse, and you'll find so many. Haṁsadūta: Okay. (end) (Conversation with U.N. Doctor) Prabhupāda: Na taj janeṣu abhijñeṣu. Abhijñaḥ janeṣu , no attachment. Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Nārada Muni, all the ācāryas , Rāmānujācārya, they have no respect for these. They're creating their howling habits, that's all. How there can be peace? Doctor: Now, when the Kṛṣṇa mantras . . . Prabhupāda: Why do you say Kṛṣṇa panthā ? Doctor: No, mantra s. I have come to mantra . Klīṁ kṛṣṇāya govindāya gopījanavallabhāya namaḥ. Is that not a very powerful Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor: That is better than Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No. Hare Kṛṣṇa is therefore called mahā*-mantra . Doctor: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. Prabhupāda: Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Doctor: This you regard as the . . . higher than any other . . . *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Therefore it is called mahā*-mantra . *Doctor: But I was told that the Sudarśana*-cakra words, mahāmāla parakramāyā maha patanivaya bhakta jane kalpanaya , that is a very powerful mantra . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything in relationship with God is powerful. But the name in this age is the most powerful: kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet ( SB 12.3.51). Doctor: And the word oṁ has been praised in the *Upaniṣads* , but . . . *Prabhupāda: Oṁ, veda, praṇavaḥ sarva*-vedeṣu . Kṛṣṇa says that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu (BG 7.8). Praṇava is oṁkāra. Sarva-vedeṣu , "That praṇava I am." That is sound representation of Kṛṣṇa. Doctor: Then that one word as a mantra , is it not . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor: . . . the highest sort of word? *Prabhupāda: No. If you keep Kṛṣṇa that, "This praṇava is the sound representation of Kṛṣṇa," then it is all right. If you think it is separately powerful than Kṛṣṇa, that is nāma*-aparādha . Doctor: I understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you accept it as Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am praṇava ," if you do remember Kṛṣṇa by chanting oṁkāra , then it is all right. Doctor: Otherwise, oṁ is only given to sannyāsīs ? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. It is not mentioned there. Anyone chanting Vedic mantra , he has to begin with oṁkāra . Doctor: All mantra s begin with oṁ and end with oṁ . *Prabhupāda: Yes, oṁkāra . So sarva*-vedeṣu. Doctor: So all the essential *Vedas* . *Prabhupāda: Praṇavaḥ sarva*-vedeṣu . This is beginning. Just like we take Bhāgavatam, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Doctor: Prabhupāda: The difficulty is that we consider Kṛṣṇa is different from oṁkāra . Doctor: That is a mistake. Prabhupāda: That is a mistake. Doctor: But then Kṛṣṇa is not different from Brahman. Prabhupāda: If you take this oṁkāra as Kṛṣṇa's sound representation, then it is all right. Doctor: Then it is as good as chanting "Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor: But it does not give . . . Prabhupāda: But because Kṛṣṇa is remembered, if you take oṁkāra as Kṛṣṇa's sound representation then Kṛṣṇa is remembered. Doctor: But Kṛṣṇa is three letters. Oṁ is one. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Doctor: In the last minute when you are dying you can feel it, easily feel it. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has many names. Kṛṣṇa has name Govinda. It is not three letters, it is more than that. Kṛṣṇa has so many thousands names. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta (BS 5.33). So therefore Kṛṣṇa advises for the beginners, "Just try to remember Me in this way— raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8): I am the taste of the water." The water you must be drinking twice, thrice, four times. So when you drink water, the taste satisfies your thirst. So if you simply remember, "This taste is Kṛṣṇa," that is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Doctor: When you eat food, that also, the taste is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, especially of the water. Kṛṣṇa is everything, but specifically He mentions, "The taste of the water I am." So you remember this. Doctor: That's very interesting. So every time you drink water . . . Prabhupāda: You can remember Kṛṣṇa. Where is the wrong, and what is the loss there? But you follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction. (someone enters) Yes, sit down. There is no difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. (microphone moves) Doctor: Why do you tape record? Hari-śauri: Everything Prabhupāda speaks we tape record, and then everyone in the world can listen. Doctor: Someone said that the word oṁ is given to sannyāsīs , and it . . . Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa does not say. Doctor: It's not so. Prabhupāda: "Someone," we don't take authority. "Someone." There are so many "someones." We don't care for them. What Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. That's all. *Doctor: But this Kaṭha*-Upaniṣad praises oṁ . *Prabhupāda: Yes, Upaniṣad is giving lesson, counterpart of this material world. Because . . . just like you are stressing on oṁkāra because you do not give much importance to Kṛṣṇa. In the material world, Kṛṣṇa . . . they think Kṛṣṇa is one of the historical person. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). So Upaniṣad is teaching us in an indirect way about the importance of Kṛṣṇa. Upa*-niṣat : to bring you nearby. Because you have got so many material conception, if we say that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," you may not like it. Therefore . . . oṁkāra is Kṛṣṇa. So you are giving lesson on oṁkāra . Although Kṛṣṇa and oṁkāra is not different, but you'll not like Kṛṣṇa. In your present position you'll not like Kṛṣṇa's name. Doctor: Why? Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are stressing . . . Doctor: No, I have read all this, and I am trying to reconcile. Prabhupāda: Ah. So that is for the neophytes. Doctor: The reconciliation is there. Oṁ is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is oṁ . Prabhupāda: So if Kṛṣṇa is . . . if you are convinced, then where is the objection of Hare Kṛṣṇa? Doctor: No, no. Prabhupāda: Why should you bring so many objections? Doctor: Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. *Doctor: Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Prabhupāda: But because I do not like, therefore *Upaniṣads* give another chance that, "Chant oṁkāra ." That is the way. Because unless one is completely purified, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhajana is possible when one is completely free from all kinds of sinful activities. So not everyone is freed from sinful activities. Therefore the indirect way. Otherwise, Upaniṣad is Veda . Doctor: Based on *Vedas* . Right. Prabhupāda: Based. Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). By studying *Vedas* , *Upaniṣads* , if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, that means your study is not complete. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After studying this indirect information of Kṛṣṇa, when one is actually a learned, wise man, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is very rarely found. This is fact. So if one is intelligent, that if only the most intelligent person, after many, many births one has to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, why not do it immediately? Why shall I wait for many, many births? That is intelligence. *Doctor: Śrī*-kṛṣṇas tu śaraṇaṁ mama. Prabhupāda: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). That is intelligence. But that intelligence is not possible for ordinary persons. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. One who gets this intelligence, such kind of mahātmā is very, very rarely found. To take it immediately, ah, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti , that is very difficult. It is not so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa or to accept Kṛṣṇa as all in all. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam . But if you take it, you are fortunate. Doctor: And the only way to attain is reciting the name. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Do that. Therefore the temple is there. Everyone may come and see Kṛṣṇa and think of Him. What is the difficulty? But he'll not come. He has concluded Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra . God is nirākāra . Doctor: Then Kṛṣṇa will not come. Prabhupāda: Well, now, Kṛṣṇa . . . you . . . whatever you think, that is your business, but Kṛṣṇa is there everywhere. Doctor: He is nirākāra and sākāra . Prabhupāda: Nirākāra means He has no material ākāra . That is nirākāra. Ākāra means we have got . . . just like I have conception of you. So this ākāra is your material ākāra . It is not your real ākāra. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). The real person is within the body, but we have no connection with the real body. We see this outward . . . just like seeing his dress, his . . . that's all. Doctor: How to find the . . .? How to get to the ātman , the inner body? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the first instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that first of all, try to understand what is the person. So because we have no eyes to see, indirectly, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram . . . (BG 2.13). Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ (BG 2.18). So many things. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . So many indirect way because we cannot directly perceive. Doctor: Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ (BG 2.23). Prabhupāda: What is called? Definition by negation. Nainaṁ chindanti —negation. So that you can have some idea. Doctor: Of what it is. Prabhupāda: It is not material. Because matter, chindanti , any matter, it can be destroyed. It can be cut into pieces, it can be melted in fire, it can be moistened. So when we cannot understand things, it is given in the definition of negation. Doctor: But then it's much better to worship God in form. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is intelligence. If you accept Kṛṣṇa immediately, man*-manā bhava mad . . . then your life is successful. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśaya (BG 18.65), He said. But they are not interested. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is a historical person. Why shall I think of Him? I shall think of oṁkāra ." You cannot think of oṁkāra . You can hear. And as soon as you think of oṁkāra , it comes form. There is no impersonality. It again becomes personal. So they want to avoid personality and as well as think of Him—it becomes a very troublesome job. Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām (BG 12.5). They cannot think of avyakta , impersonal. But they are trying to think of. And that is a very troublesome job. Kleśala eva avaśiṣyate . Such attempt means he simply gets the result of his hard endeavor. That's all. He doesn't get any substance. Doctor: So with faith accept the . . . Prabhupāda: No faith—it is fact. Faith is blind. Doctor: Faith is blind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Faith with good knowledge, that is nice. If you have good knowledge of Kṛṣṇa and you have faith, that is very good. But if you . . . just like Māyāvādīs, they say: "Imagine Kṛṣṇa as God." They say: "Imagine." Doctor: That is no good. *Prabhupāda: They are no good. Kalpana . They say kalpana. Sādhakānāṁ gitarthaya brahma*-rūpa-kalpana. Rūpa-kalpana . But Kṛṣṇa's rūpa is not kalpana; it is fact. So kalpana is not faith, it is blind. "Let me imagine some form of Kṛṣṇa." And therefore gradually, they come down to the position that any form you imagine as God, that is all right. They have come to this degradation. Doctor: That you can, any form . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Any form you imagine that he is God, that will give you success. They say like that. Doctor: I think I have taken too much of time. Prabhupāda: I am going there at six. Doctor: Words of enlightenment. Hari-śauri: Have you got any of Prabhupāda's books? *Doctor: I have got some. I bought all the volumes of translation of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . I have got all of them. But some of them have not arrived from United States, the latest ones. And I have got . . . *Hari-śauri: Bhagavad*-gītā . That's very nice. Prabhupāda: You are staying in New Delhi? Doctor: I stay in the Hague and come to New Delhi when there are no cases. Prabhupāda: Hague? Doctor: Holland. Prabhupāda: Holland. That is the international court? Doctor: Yes, the court case located, the headquarters. Prabhupāda: I went somewhere, that is also international. In Geneva, I think. Is there any . . .? Doctor: Geneva is another headquarters of the . . . of the United Nations. New York, Geneva. But the court is in the Hague. Prabhupāda: So I went to that place in Geneva. Doctor: Geneva has got so many specialized agencies of the United Nations, like the I.L.O. and so on. Prabhupāda: Do you think United Nation is making any tangible progress? Doctor: Sir, it at least brings people together under one umbrella to discuss. If you did not have that . . . Prabhupāda: But discussion, that I have already explained. Doctor: Sir, maybe, but if you don't discuss, you'll fight. Because if aim we don't meet at all, then they will have the struggle. *Prabhupāda: No. If you have no idea how to come to the conclusion, ciraṁ vicinvan (SB 10.14.29), you can forever go on discussing, you'll never come . . . you do not know what is the aim. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). Doctor: May be so, but if two people instead of coming to blows come together to talk, it is a step in the right direction. Prabhupāda: No right direction, because he does not know what is the aim. Doctor: They both want to have peace, so they at least try to . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone wants that. But if he does not know how to attain peace, then you'll go on discussing forever. That is going on. Doctor: But it is still a step in the right direction . . . Prabhupāda: I don't think there is any advancement. Doctor: . . . otherwise, what is the aim? Prabhupāda: Otherwise, there is; *but you don't take, how it can be done? In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated: This is the process. But if you don't take it . . . Doctor: But if that realization does not dawn . . . 'till that realization . . . Prabhupāda: Then you go on barking. That is another thing. Doctor: (laughs) It's better to bark than to fight. Prabhupāda: Then that is your satisfaction. You can do that peacefully. Doctor: One day after barking they will come to a conclusion. *Prabhupāda: No, that is . . . let it be known, fact, that that will never come, if you do not know what is the aim. That is stated in the . . . durāśayā ye bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. This is, means, a bad hope, that by this external exhibition of manipulation of energy, they will come to peace. It is not possible. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ adānta-gobhir . . . (SB 7.5.31). Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This kind of leading is made by the blind leaders. If the leaders are blind and the followers are blind, what result will be there? Doctor: That is true, sir, but that stage has not come. One day it will come. But till that stage and that realization of . . . *Prabhupāda: No, stage is there. But if the obstinate persons, they do not take it . . . here it is clearly said . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29): "I am the proprietor of all the lands, all the planets." So how can you say no? There must be someone proprietor. Doctor: But then God Himself has created the ego in man. Prabhupāda: No, no. He has created . . . Doctor: God is the creator. He's also the creator of the ego of man. Prabhupāda: He has created ego. That is a fact. But you are utilizing the ego in a different way. Doctor: Because the realization is not there. Prabhupāda: He is giving the intelligence, but you are not accepting. Doctor: Maybe so. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difficulty. He has come to give you instruction, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). When you forget—there is glānir , discrepancies, in the discharge of your duties—He comes to give you instruction, but you don't accept. Now what can be done? The teacher is giving you instruction, but you don't accept. Then how you'll be educated? This is going on. Mūḍho nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25). They do not accept. They will write comments on Bhagavad*-gītā in their own way. You see? Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Yes. As it is. Don't comment in your own way. You'll not get any profit. Take, for example, any law, government law. Can I comment in my own way? Doctor: No. *Prabhupāda: Then why you comment on Bhagavad*-gītā ? Doctor: The law is meant for obedience. Prabhupāda: That's all. Similarly, if you accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord, then whatever He has said . . . just like Arjuna says, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14): "Whatever you are saying, Keśava, I accept them in total." That is acceptance. Doctor: (laughs) Along this note, I'll . . . (break) (end) (Conversation with U.N. Doctor) Prabhupāda: Na taj janeṣu abhijñeṣu. Abhijñaḥ janeṣu , no attachment. Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Nārada Muni, all the ācāryas , Rāmānujācārya, they have no respect for these. They're creating their howling habits, that's all. How there can be peace? Doctor: Now, when the Kṛṣṇa mantras . . . Prabhupāda: Why do you say Kṛṣṇa panthā ? Doctor: No, mantra s. I have come to mantra . Klīṁ kṛṣṇāya govindāya gopījanavallabhāya namaḥ. Is that not a very powerful Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor: That is better than Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No. Hare Kṛṣṇa is therefore called mahā*-mantra . Doctor: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. Prabhupāda: Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Doctor: This you regard as the . . . higher than any other . . . *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Therefore it is called mahā*-mantra . *Doctor: But I was told that the Sudarśana*-cakra words, mahāmāla parakramāyā maha patanivaya bhakta jane kalpanaya , that is a very powerful mantra . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything in relationship with God is powerful. But the name in this age is the most powerful: kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet ( SB 12.3.51). Doctor: And the word oṁ has been praised in the *Upaniṣads* , but . . . *Prabhupāda: Oṁ, veda, praṇavaḥ sarva*-vedeṣu . Kṛṣṇa says that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu (BG 7.8). Praṇava is oṁkāra. Sarva-vedeṣu , "That praṇava I am." That is sound representation of Kṛṣṇa. Doctor: Then that one word as a mantra , is it not . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor: . . . the highest sort of word? *Prabhupāda: No. If you keep Kṛṣṇa that, "This praṇava is the sound representation of Kṛṣṇa," then it is all right. If you think it is separately powerful than Kṛṣṇa, that is nāma*-aparādha . Doctor: I understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you accept it as Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am praṇava ," if you do remember Kṛṣṇa by chanting oṁkāra , then it is all right. Doctor: Otherwise, oṁ is only given to sannyāsīs ? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. It is not mentioned there. Anyone chanting Vedic mantra , he has to begin with oṁkāra . Doctor: All mantra s begin with oṁ and end with oṁ . *Prabhupāda: Yes, oṁkāra . So sarva*-vedeṣu. Doctor: So all the essential *Vedas* . *Prabhupāda: Praṇavaḥ sarva*-vedeṣu . This is beginning. Just like we take Bhāgavatam, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Doctor: Prabhupāda: The difficulty is that we consider Kṛṣṇa is different from oṁkāra . Doctor: That is a mistake. Prabhupāda: That is a mistake. Doctor: But then Kṛṣṇa is not different from Brahman. Prabhupāda: If you take this oṁkāra as Kṛṣṇa's sound representation, then it is all right. Doctor: Then it is as good as chanting "Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor: But it does not give . . . Prabhupāda: But because Kṛṣṇa is remembered, if you take oṁkāra as Kṛṣṇa's sound representation then Kṛṣṇa is remembered. Doctor: But Kṛṣṇa is three letters. Oṁ is one. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Doctor: In the last minute when you are dying you can feel it, easily feel it. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has many names. Kṛṣṇa has name Govinda. It is not three letters, it is more than that. Kṛṣṇa has so many thousands names. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta (BS 5.33). So therefore Kṛṣṇa advises for the beginners, "Just try to remember Me in this way— raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8): I am the taste of the water." The water you must be drinking twice, thrice, four times. So when you drink water, the taste satisfies your thirst. So if you simply remember, "This taste is Kṛṣṇa," that is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Doctor: When you eat food, that also, the taste is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, especially of the water. Kṛṣṇa is everything, but specifically He mentions, "The taste of the water I am." So you remember this. Doctor: That's very interesting. So every time you drink water . . . Prabhupāda: You can remember Kṛṣṇa. Where is the wrong, and what is the loss there? But you follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction. (someone enters) Yes, sit down. There is no difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. (microphone moves) Doctor: Why do you tape record? Hari-śauri: Everything Prabhupāda speaks we tape record, and then everyone in the world can listen. Doctor: Someone said that the word oṁ is given to sannyāsīs , and it . . . Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa does not say. Doctor: It's not so. Prabhupāda: "Someone," we don't take authority. "Someone." There are so many "someones." We don't care for them. What Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. That's all. *Doctor: But this Kaṭha*-Upaniṣad praises oṁ . *Prabhupāda: Yes, Upaniṣad is giving lesson, counterpart of this material world. Because . . . just like you are stressing on oṁkāra because you do not give much importance to Kṛṣṇa. In the material world, Kṛṣṇa . . . they think Kṛṣṇa is one of the historical person. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). So Upaniṣad is teaching us in an indirect way about the importance of Kṛṣṇa. Upa*-niṣat : to bring you nearby. Because you have got so many material conception, if we say that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," you may not like it. Therefore . . . oṁkāra is Kṛṣṇa. So you are giving lesson on oṁkāra . Although Kṛṣṇa and oṁkāra is not different, but you'll not like Kṛṣṇa. In your present position you'll not like Kṛṣṇa's name. Doctor: Why? Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are stressing . . . Doctor: No, I have read all this, and I am trying to reconcile. Prabhupāda: Ah. So that is for the neophytes. Doctor: The reconciliation is there. Oṁ is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is oṁ . Prabhupāda: So if Kṛṣṇa is . . . if you are convinced, then where is the objection of Hare Kṛṣṇa? Doctor: No, no. Prabhupāda: Why should you bring so many objections? Doctor: Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. *Doctor: Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Prabhupāda: But because I do not like, therefore *Upaniṣads* give another chance that, "Chant oṁkāra ." That is the way. Because unless one is completely purified, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhajana is possible when one is completely free from all kinds of sinful activities. So not everyone is freed from sinful activities. Therefore the indirect way. Otherwise, Upaniṣad is Veda . Doctor: Based on *Vedas* . Right. Prabhupāda: Based. Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). By studying *Vedas* , *Upaniṣads* , if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, that means your study is not complete. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After studying this indirect information of Kṛṣṇa, when one is actually a learned, wise man, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is very rarely found. This is fact. So if one is intelligent, that if only the most intelligent person, after many, many births one has to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, why not do it immediately? Why shall I wait for many, many births? That is intelligence. *Doctor: Śrī*-kṛṣṇas tu śaraṇaṁ mama. Prabhupāda: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). That is intelligence. But that intelligence is not possible for ordinary persons. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. One who gets this intelligence, such kind of mahātmā is very, very rarely found. To take it immediately, ah, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti , that is very difficult. It is not so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa or to accept Kṛṣṇa as all in all. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam . But if you take it, you are fortunate. Doctor: And the only way to attain is reciting the name. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Do that. Therefore the temple is there. Everyone may come and see Kṛṣṇa and think of Him. What is the difficulty? But he'll not come. He has concluded Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra . God is nirākāra . Doctor: Then Kṛṣṇa will not come. Prabhupāda: Well, now, Kṛṣṇa . . . you . . . whatever you think, that is your business, but Kṛṣṇa is there everywhere. Doctor: He is nirākāra and sākāra . Prabhupāda: Nirākāra means He has no material ākāra . That is nirākāra. Ākāra means we have got . . . just like I have conception of you. So this ākāra is your material ākāra . It is not your real ākāra. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). The real person is within the body, but we have no connection with the real body. We see this outward . . . just like seeing his dress, his . . . that's all. Doctor: How to find the . . .? How to get to the ātman , the inner body? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the first instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that first of all, try to understand what is the person. So because we have no eyes to see, indirectly, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram . . . (BG 2.13). Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ (BG 2.18). So many things. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . So many indirect way because we cannot directly perceive. Doctor: Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ (BG 2.23). Prabhupāda: What is called? Definition by negation. Nainaṁ chindanti —negation. So that you can have some idea. Doctor: Of what it is. Prabhupāda: It is not material. Because matter, chindanti , any matter, it can be destroyed. It can be cut into pieces, it can be melted in fire, it can be moistened. So when we cannot understand things, it is given in the definition of negation. Doctor: But then it's much better to worship God in form. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is intelligence. If you accept Kṛṣṇa immediately, man*-manā bhava mad . . . then your life is successful. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśaya (BG 18.65), He said. But they are not interested. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is a historical person. Why shall I think of Him? I shall think of oṁkāra ." You cannot think of oṁkāra . You can hear. And as soon as you think of oṁkāra , it comes form. There is no impersonality. It again becomes personal. So they want to avoid personality and as well as think of Him—it becomes a very troublesome job. Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām (BG 12.5). They cannot think of avyakta , impersonal. But they are trying to think of. And that is a very troublesome job. Kleśala eva avaśiṣyate . Such attempt means he simply gets the result of his hard endeavor. That's all. He doesn't get any substance. Doctor: So with faith accept the . . . Prabhupāda: No faith—it is fact. Faith is blind. Doctor: Faith is blind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Faith with good knowledge, that is nice. If you have good knowledge of Kṛṣṇa and you have faith, that is very good. But if you . . . just like Māyāvādīs, they say: "Imagine Kṛṣṇa as God." They say: "Imagine." Doctor: That is no good. *Prabhupāda: They are no good. Kalpana . They say kalpana. Sādhakānāṁ gitarthaya brahma*-rūpa-kalpana. Rūpa-kalpana . But Kṛṣṇa's rūpa is not kalpana; it is fact. So kalpana is not faith, it is blind. "Let me imagine some form of Kṛṣṇa." And therefore gradually, they come down to the position that any form you imagine as God, that is all right. They have come to this degradation. Doctor: That you can, any form . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Any form you imagine that he is God, that will give you success. They say like that. Doctor: I think I have taken too much of time. Prabhupāda: I am going there at six. Doctor: Words of enlightenment. Hari-śauri: Have you got any of Prabhupāda's books? *Doctor: I have got some. I bought all the volumes of translation of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . I have got all of them. But some of them have not arrived from United States, the latest ones. And I have got . . . *Hari-śauri: Bhagavad*-gītā . That's very nice. Prabhupāda: You are staying in New Delhi? Doctor: I stay in the Hague and come to New Delhi when there are no cases. Prabhupāda: Hague? Doctor: Holland. Prabhupāda: Holland. That is the international court? Doctor: Yes, the court case located, the headquarters. Prabhupāda: I went somewhere, that is also international. In Geneva, I think. Is there any . . .? Doctor: Geneva is another headquarters of the . . . of the United Nations. New York, Geneva. But the court is in the Hague. Prabhupāda: So I went to that place in Geneva. Doctor: Geneva has got so many specialized agencies of the United Nations, like the I.L.O. and so on. Prabhupāda: Do you think United Nation is making any tangible progress? Doctor: Sir, it at least brings people together under one umbrella to discuss. If you did not have that . . . Prabhupāda: But discussion, that I have already explained. Doctor: Sir, maybe, but if you don't discuss, you'll fight. Because if aim we don't meet at all, then they will have the struggle. *Prabhupāda: No. If you have no idea how to come to the conclusion, ciraṁ vicinvan (SB 10.14.29), you can forever go on discussing, you'll never come . . . you do not know what is the aim. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). Doctor: May be so, but if two people instead of coming to blows come together to talk, it is a step in the right direction. Prabhupāda: No right direction, because he does not know what is the aim. Doctor: They both want to have peace, so they at least try to . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone wants that. But if he does not know how to attain peace, then you'll go on discussing forever. That is going on. Doctor: But it is still a step in the right direction . . . Prabhupāda: I don't think there is any advancement. Doctor: . . . otherwise, what is the aim? Prabhupāda: Otherwise, there is; *but you don't take, how it can be done? In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated: This is the process. But if you don't take it . . . Doctor: But if that realization does not dawn . . . 'till that realization . . . Prabhupāda: Then you go on barking. That is another thing. Doctor: (laughs) It's better to bark than to fight. Prabhupāda: Then that is your satisfaction. You can do that peacefully. Doctor: One day after barking they will come to a conclusion. *Prabhupāda: No, that is . . . let it be known, fact, that that will never come, if you do not know what is the aim. That is stated in the . . . durāśayā ye bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. This is, means, a bad hope, that by this external exhibition of manipulation of energy, they will come to peace. It is not possible. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ adānta-gobhir . . . (SB 7.5.31). Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This kind of leading is made by the blind leaders. If the leaders are blind and the followers are blind, what result will be there? Doctor: That is true, sir, but that stage has not come. One day it will come. But till that stage and that realization of . . . *Prabhupāda: No, stage is there. But if the obstinate persons, they do not take it . . . here it is clearly said . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29): "I am the proprietor of all the lands, all the planets." So how can you say no? There must be someone proprietor. Doctor: But then God Himself has created the ego in man. Prabhupāda: No, no. He has created . . . Doctor: God is the creator. He's also the creator of the ego of man. Prabhupāda: He has created ego. That is a fact. But you are utilizing the ego in a different way. Doctor: Because the realization is not there. Prabhupāda: He is giving the intelligence, but you are not accepting. Doctor: Maybe so. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difficulty. He has come to give you instruction, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). When you forget—there is glānir , discrepancies, in the discharge of your duties—He comes to give you instruction, but you don't accept. Now what can be done? The teacher is giving you instruction, but you don't accept. Then how you'll be educated? This is going on. Mūḍho nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25). They do not accept. They will write comments on Bhagavad*-gītā in their own way. You see? Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Yes. As it is. Don't comment in your own way. You'll not get any profit. Take, for example, any law, government law. Can I comment in my own way? Doctor: No. *Prabhupāda: Then why you comment on Bhagavad*-gītā ? Doctor: The law is meant for obedience. Prabhupāda: That's all. Similarly, if you accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord, then whatever He has said . . . just like Arjuna says, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14): "Whatever you are saying, Keśava, I accept them in total." That is acceptance. Doctor: (laughs) Along this note, I'll . . . (break) (end) *Prabhupāda: One boy, he was coming to me. In that 100 . . . (break) about 171st Street, all my things were stolen. My tape recorder, typewriter. Fortunately they did not touch my manuscript that I was writing, typing my books. So some money was stolen. Then one boy, he was coming to me, he told me, "Please come to my place." A loft, Bowery Street. I did not know the Bowery Street was not a good quarter. All bums and drunks. When I see them, one Jewish friend, he had electrical shop, he told me, "Swāmījī, you have gone to Bowery Street? Oh, it is not your place." I did not know that it is full of drunkards. But they were lying down in front of my door, but they were respectful. When I'd go, these drunkard comes, and they respectfully give me ways. And they would lie down on urine and something like that, on water. Then the boy who took me there . . . he was Murray. His last title was Murray. And he was taking LSD. So since I went there, he did not go to work. Otherwise, he was working and getting daily twenty*-five dollars. In some dock he was working. Since I went, he stopped working, and I had to pay 125 dollars for the loft. One lady was the landlord. *So I was going on. Some people were coming. Then Mukunda began to come, his wife, and another black boy, half*-black. Yeargen, Karlāpati. I gave him name, Karlāpati. He was coming. Then one day that boy Murray, he showed some crazy features. So I thought, "It is dangerous to live with him." So I approached Mukunda. Mukunda had no place, still I asked him. So I kept my goods at Mukunda's house and went to live with Yeargen. That is another loft. So in this way, with great hardship—sometime here, sometime there—in this way, I got two hundred dollars by selling book, and then I asked Mukunda to find out an apartment. He found this apartment, 26 Second Avenue: one storefront down and one living quarters up. So I found it very convenient. Down I would lecture and hold kīrtana . So he charged 75 dollars per month for the apartment, small apartment. I think in a space like this room or less than that, everything is there. There was kitchen, there was shower, and two rooms. I think less than this. About two-thirds of this room, and everything there. So I shifted there. And there I remained up to May 1967, I think. *Then I got heart attack. Then I went to Stenson Beach. Then I could not improve my health. No, first of all I went to San Francisco. There also I could not . . . I could not sleep home at night. There was throbbing in the heart. Kīrtanānanda, he was serving me. So many difficulties. Then I came back to India in 1967, July. Here also not very much improvement. Then again I went to Los Angeles. There also one symptom developed, always some sound in the ear, goh*-goh-goh-goh-goh. It was so disturbing, almost half-mad. And then Los Angeles. Then I think I went to Seattle. In this way, in the beginning there were so many difficulties. Montreal. I took Canadian citizenship. America I could not get. So one gentleman in the immigration department, he said: "Swāmījī, you go to Canada, and from there you try. It will be easier." Actually, it acted. The Canadian Consulate General was a black man, American black man. So in the consulate I applied for citizenship . . . aiye , immigration, and he was sympathetic. He saw my Teachings of Lord Caitanya and he became attracted. So he settled up, "This gentleman must be allowed." So he expedited the matter within three months. And then I became immigrant in the USA. Then again I came back in Los Angeles, and then we took that house, La Cienega. Devotee: La Cienega Boulevard. Prabhupāda: That man also wanted to kick out after one year. Then we had no place. Then, by Kṛṣṇa's grace, we got this house present. At that time I got fifty thousand dollars. So I advanced them down payment. And it is 225 hundred . . . thousand. I think they are still paying two thousand. Twelve years. How many years passed? Hari-śauri: That was in '69? Prabhupāda: Yes. '68 I got immigration, and '69. Hmm. It is a long history, checkered history. (pause) Prabhupāda: So preaching is independent. If you have got desire, you can preach in any circumstances and Kṛṣṇa will help you. I have practically experienced. I went to your country without any help, without any money, alone. And gradually things developed. (break) . . . all foreigners. I did not approach any Indian. I did not approach anyone, but Kṛṣṇa sent friends, gradually developed. Akṣayānanda: There's a man from Gujarat that wants to see you, Prabhupāda. He saw our center in Chicago. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: He saw our center in Chicago. Prabhupāda: Oh. Get this light. Light. (end) *Prabhupāda: One boy, he was coming to me. In that 100 . . . (break) about 171st Street, all my things were stolen. My tape recorder, typewriter. Fortunately they did not touch my manuscript that I was writing, typing my books. So some money was stolen. Then one boy, he was coming to me, he told me, "Please come to my place." A loft, Bowery Street. I did not know the Bowery Street was not a good quarter. All bums and drunks. When I see them, one Jewish friend, he had electrical shop, he told me, "Swāmījī, you have gone to Bowery Street? Oh, it is not your place." I did not know that it is full of drunkards. But they were lying down in front of my door, but they were respectful. When I'd go, these drunkard comes, and they respectfully give me ways. And they would lie down on urine and something like that, on water. Then the boy who took me there . . . he was Murray. His last title was Murray. And he was taking LSD. So since I went there, he did not go to work. Otherwise, he was working and getting daily twenty*-five dollars. In some dock he was working. Since I went, he stopped working, and I had to pay 125 dollars for the loft. One lady was the landlord. *So I was going on. Some people were coming. Then Mukunda began to come, his wife, and another black boy, half*-black. Yeargen, Karlāpati. I gave him name, Karlāpati. He was coming. Then one day that boy Murray, he showed some crazy features. So I thought, "It is dangerous to live with him." So I approached Mukunda. Mukunda had no place, still I asked him. So I kept my goods at Mukunda's house and went to live with Yeargen. That is another loft. So in this way, with great hardship—sometime here, sometime there—in this way, I got two hundred dollars by selling book, and then I asked Mukunda to find out an apartment. He found this apartment, 26 Second Avenue: one storefront down and one living quarters up. So I found it very convenient. Down I would lecture and hold kīrtana . So he charged 75 dollars per month for the apartment, small apartment. I think in a space like this room or less than that, everything is there. There was kitchen, there was shower, and two rooms. I think less than this. About two-thirds of this room, and everything there. So I shifted there. And there I remained up to May 1967, I think. *Then I got heart attack. Then I went to Stenson Beach. Then I could not improve my health. No, first of all I went to San Francisco. There also I could not . . . I could not sleep home at night. There was throbbing in the heart. Kīrtanānanda, he was serving me. So many difficulties. Then I came back to India in 1967, July. Here also not very much improvement. Then again I went to Los Angeles. There also one symptom developed, always some sound in the ear, goh*-goh-goh-goh-goh. It was so disturbing, almost half-mad. And then Los Angeles. Then I think I went to Seattle. In this way, in the beginning there were so many difficulties. Montreal. I took Canadian citizenship. America I could not get. So one gentleman in the immigration department, he said: "Swāmījī, you go to Canada, and from there you try. It will be easier." Actually, it acted. The Canadian Consulate General was a black man, American black man. So in the consulate I applied for citizenship . . . aiye , immigration, and he was sympathetic. He saw my Teachings of Lord Caitanya and he became attracted. So he settled up, "This gentleman must be allowed." So he expedited the matter within three months. And then I became immigrant in the USA. Then again I came back in Los Angeles, and then we took that house, La Cienega. Devotee: La Cienega Boulevard. Prabhupāda: That man also wanted to kick out after one year. Then we had no place. Then, by Kṛṣṇa's grace, we got this house present. At that time I got fifty thousand dollars. So I advanced them down payment. And it is 225 hundred . . . thousand. I think they are still paying two thousand. Twelve years. How many years passed? Hari-śauri: That was in '69? Prabhupāda: Yes. '68 I got immigration, and '69. Hmm. It is a long history, checkered history. (pause) Prabhupāda: So preaching is independent. If you have got desire, you can preach in any circumstances and Kṛṣṇa will help you. I have practically experienced. I went to your country without any help, without any money, alone. And gradually things developed. (break) . . . all foreigners. I did not approach any Indian. I did not approach anyone, but Kṛṣṇa sent friends, gradually developed. Akṣayānanda: There's a man from Gujarat that wants to see you, Prabhupāda. He saw our center in Chicago. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: He saw our center in Chicago. Prabhupāda: Oh. Get this light. Light. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . position. It is not a good position. Hari-śauri: (looking at photo) No, it's not very clean. I was just wondering who the other two were. Prabhupāda: I took sannyāsa from him. Hari-śauri: Who is that? Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa has to be taken from a sannyāsī , so I took sannyāsa from him. Hari-śauri: Yes, I was wondering what his name was. Prabhupāda: Oh, his name is Keśava Mahārāja. He's one of my Godbrothers. He's also one of my Godbrothers. Hari-śauri: And he took it the same time. Prabhupāda: They are now dead and gone. Hari-śauri: Yes. This man, he looks very old already. The other one. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was . . . he is of my age, middle. The other one, he was older. Hari-śauri: Harikeśa said the day before you took sannyāsa you were gored by a cow or something? A cow hit you in the stomach? Prabhupāda: Before? Hari-śauri: The day before you took sannyāsa ? Prabhupāda: No. No. (laughing) Hari-śauri: I was told that. I don't know whether it was . . . or some time around then. Prabhupāda: That was long before. Hari-śauri: Oh, that was a long time. Prabhupāda: I took sannyāsa sometime in '59, and . . . no, that is after I took sannyāsa . No, no. Before, yes. Before or after . . . Hari-śauri: He said it was the day before. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No. That was an incident in Delhi. Now I think it was . . . it was before. Before. That was sometime in 19 . . . 56. Hari-śauri: Oh, that's a long time before. Prabhupāda: And I took sannyāsa in 1959. Hari-śauri: That was in Vṛndāvana or Delhi? Prabhupāda: No, Delhi. Vānaprastha . I was alone. But my paper was going on, Back to Godhead . In Delhi I was alone. I was doing everything—editing, selling, collecting, cooking. Hari-śauri: There was no Godbrothers helping at all? Prabhupāda: I did not take. They wanted. I did not take. Hari-śauri: Did you ever think at that time that you would be able to expand or . . . *Prabhupāda: I was trying to do. It was a struggle at that time. At that time I lived with some of my Godbrothers, but I did not like, and I left their temple and I was living alone. Then in Imlitala . . . you know there? Imlitala, Seva*-kunj there is a . . . Hari-śauri: No, I'm not familiar. Prabhupāda: My Godbrother's temple. He had a temple in Delhi, Karol Bagh. I left Jhansi and came to Mathurā. I lived there for few months. Then I went to Delhi. In this way, here, there. Hari-śauri: The boy at the front, he's reading one of your old Bhāgavatams . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: He has one of your original Bhāgavatams . Prabhupāda: Who? Hari-śauri: The boy at the front that's on guard. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Akṣaya, the boy that guards. He's been reading one of your original Bhāgavatams , the 1.1. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Hari-śauri: And I was looking at the front, and it gives your residence in Vṛndāvana at Rādhā*-Dāmodara and your office in Delhi. Prabhupāda: It was not unpleasant. When I was living alone, doing everything, it was not unpleasant. I was . . . very nice. That was an accident. Otherwise, it was not unpleasant. Alone, everything I was doing. Rather, I had not so much anxiety about management. Even my, this son came to live with me. I said: "No, you don't." Hari-śauri: Who was that? Vrindavan there? Prabhupāda: Hmm. They sent, my family, to go and live with me. He came twice, thrice. The reason is that I asked him, "If you want to live with me, then you have to live with me as sannyāsī, brahmacārī ." Hari-śauri: Yeah . . . and he couldn't. Prabhupāda: Otherwise . . . from 1954, '55. No, up to '54 . . . 1950 . . . I left home 1950. From '50 to '54 I lived in Jhansi. Hari-śauri: That was when you started the League of Devotees? Prabhupāda: Hmm. At that time there were many students. They were not my disciples, but they were coming. Like . . . that Prabhākāra? Hari-śauri: Yes, Prabhākāra Ācārya. Prabhupāda: He was the head. Hari-śauri: (laughs) You were teaching Vaiṣṇavism or . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. I wanted to start from there. It was very nice, big house. But this K. Munshi's wife tactfully wanted me to . . . the Governor's wife. That was a very big house. Hari-śauri: Oh, there were some politics. I didn't know. Prabhupāda: But he peacefully took it. I could have fought, but I did not like. All the pleaders in Jhansi, they said: "Don't leave." She was pressing through the collector, through the manager. That house belonged to some zamindar , but it was under the management of another man, Reba Shankara. So he was proprietor of one cinema hall. So the governor's wife was pressing him through the collector, because the license has to be renewed from the collector. Collector was insisting that, "You give that house, Lilavati Munshi." Indirectly. "Otherwise, your license will not be issued." Hari-śauri: They didn't leave you very much choice. Prabhupāda: I thought, I could not do something tangible. That's a fact. Somehow or other, I thought, "Let me go to Vṛndāvana. What is the use of fighting?" Otherwise, all the big lawyers in Jhansi, they were my friends. They said that, "You shall not go. We shall arrange." I thought that, "I have left my home, for this reason I am going to, again, litigation. I don't want this house. Let her do something." Hari-śauri: The League of Devotees, was that Godbrothers again? Or . . .? Was that some Godbrothers that you joined up with, or was that just . . . Prabhupāda: No, after leaving Jhansi I went to this Godbrother. Hari-śauri: Keśava. *Prabhupāda: I lived there for few months. Then I went to another Godbrother, that Imlitala, Delhi. Then I left there. I used to live alone in Delhi. Then I took one house in Keśī*-ghāṭa. Then the Rādhā-Dāmodara men, they called me that, "You can live here. We give you two rooms. We don't charge. We give you the place." I came to Rādhā-Dāmodara. And from Rādhā-Dāmodara temple I went USA. Hari-śauri: I was just wondering what exactly the League of Devotees was. Prabhupāda: Oh, League was that, that was . . . I was trying to collect some devotees. Some of them, they were medical . . . yes. Medical students. So they came and used to live with me. But still, I lived there for two years, from 1954 to '56. I had some surgical operation in my testicles there. They were taking care. This Prabhākāra and . . . they were not full time; they were students, that's all. They were living with me. Hari-śauri: But your Bhāgavatams , it says they were published by the League of Devotees. Does that just mean yourself, or there were others? Prabhupāda: (laughs) That was . . . League of Devotees was my organization. Therefore I gave that name. Hari-śauri: But actually it was just you. Oh. Prabhupāda: That League of Devotees, I was alone doing. (laughs) Hari-śauri: (laughing) I was trying to understand who it could be. Prabhupāda: I am everything at that time. There were some students, but they were not very active. I was doing everything. That League of Devotees means I am everything. I wanted to organize with this Prabhākāra Miśra and others, but they were not interested to be . . . Hari-śauri: Not to become Vaiṣṇavas. *Prabhupāda: No, to devote whole time. They were . . . just like Prabhākāra comes still. But if you ask him to do full*-time work, that he'll not do. Therefore I did not initiate others. He was initiated, harinam . But they were all learned scholars, Sanskrit. Hari-śauri: Do any of them come now? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Do any of them come now apart from Prabhākāra? Prabhupāda: Hmm? No, they are, they have gone in the . . . they are practicing as medical men. They were students, medical students. Now they are practicing. Hari-śauri: They don't come to see you or anything now? Prabhupāda: Sometime they came. Long time it is passed. That was in 1956 or '55. No, '54. Hari-śauri: In Jhansi. Prabhupāda: So, twenty years past. More than twenty years. You can speak of twenty years' history. What is that? Devotee: Um. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . position. It is not a good position. Hari-śauri: (looking at photo) No, it's not very clean. I was just wondering who the other two were. Prabhupāda: I took sannyāsa from him. Hari-śauri: Who is that? Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa has to be taken from a sannyāsī , so I took sannyāsa from him. Hari-śauri: Yes, I was wondering what his name was. Prabhupāda: Oh, his name is Keśava Mahārāja. He's one of my Godbrothers. He's also one of my Godbrothers. Hari-śauri: And he took it the same time. Prabhupāda: They are now dead and gone. Hari-śauri: Yes. This man, he looks very old already. The other one. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was . . . he is of my age, middle. The other one, he was older. Hari-śauri: Harikeśa said the day before you took sannyāsa you were gored by a cow or something? A cow hit you in the stomach? Prabhupāda: Before? Hari-śauri: The day before you took sannyāsa ? Prabhupāda: No. No. (laughing) Hari-śauri: I was told that. I don't know whether it was . . . or some time around then. Prabhupāda: That was long before. Hari-śauri: Oh, that was a long time. Prabhupāda: I took sannyāsa sometime in '59, and . . . no, that is after I took sannyāsa . No, no. Before, yes. Before or after . . . Hari-śauri: He said it was the day before. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No. That was an incident in Delhi. Now I think it was . . . it was before. Before. That was sometime in 19 . . . 56. Hari-śauri: Oh, that's a long time before. Prabhupāda: And I took sannyāsa in 1959. Hari-śauri: That was in Vṛndāvana or Delhi? Prabhupāda: No, Delhi. Vānaprastha . I was alone. But my paper was going on, Back to Godhead . In Delhi I was alone. I was doing everything—editing, selling, collecting, cooking. Hari-śauri: There was no Godbrothers helping at all? Prabhupāda: I did not take. They wanted. I did not take. Hari-śauri: Did you ever think at that time that you would be able to expand or . . . *Prabhupāda: I was trying to do. It was a struggle at that time. At that time I lived with some of my Godbrothers, but I did not like, and I left their temple and I was living alone. Then in Imlitala . . . you know there? Imlitala, Seva*-kunj there is a . . . Hari-śauri: No, I'm not familiar. Prabhupāda: My Godbrother's temple. He had a temple in Delhi, Karol Bagh. I left Jhansi and came to Mathurā. I lived there for few months. Then I went to Delhi. In this way, here, there. Hari-śauri: The boy at the front, he's reading one of your old Bhāgavatams . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: He has one of your original Bhāgavatams . Prabhupāda: Who? Hari-śauri: The boy at the front that's on guard. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Akṣaya, the boy that guards. He's been reading one of your original Bhāgavatams , the 1.1. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Hari-śauri: And I was looking at the front, and it gives your residence in Vṛndāvana at Rādhā*-Dāmodara and your office in Delhi. Prabhupāda: It was not unpleasant. When I was living alone, doing everything, it was not unpleasant. I was . . . very nice. That was an accident. Otherwise, it was not unpleasant. Alone, everything I was doing. Rather, I had not so much anxiety about management. Even my, this son came to live with me. I said: "No, you don't." Hari-śauri: Who was that? Vrindavan there? Prabhupāda: Hmm. They sent, my family, to go and live with me. He came twice, thrice. The reason is that I asked him, "If you want to live with me, then you have to live with me as sannyāsī, brahmacārī ." Hari-śauri: Yeah . . . and he couldn't. Prabhupāda: Otherwise . . . from 1954, '55. No, up to '54 . . . 1950 . . . I left home 1950. From '50 to '54 I lived in Jhansi. Hari-śauri: That was when you started the League of Devotees? Prabhupāda: Hmm. At that time there were many students. They were not my disciples, but they were coming. Like . . . that Prabhākāra? Hari-śauri: Yes, Prabhākāra Ācārya. Prabhupāda: He was the head. Hari-śauri: (laughs) You were teaching Vaiṣṇavism or . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. I wanted to start from there. It was very nice, big house. But this K. Munshi's wife tactfully wanted me to . . . the Governor's wife. That was a very big house. Hari-śauri: Oh, there were some politics. I didn't know. Prabhupāda: But he peacefully took it. I could have fought, but I did not like. All the pleaders in Jhansi, they said: "Don't leave." She was pressing through the collector, through the manager. That house belonged to some zamindar , but it was under the management of another man, Reba Shankara. So he was proprietor of one cinema hall. So the governor's wife was pressing him through the collector, because the license has to be renewed from the collector. Collector was insisting that, "You give that house, Lilavati Munshi." Indirectly. "Otherwise, your license will not be issued." Hari-śauri: They didn't leave you very much choice. Prabhupāda: I thought, I could not do something tangible. That's a fact. Somehow or other, I thought, "Let me go to Vṛndāvana. What is the use of fighting?" Otherwise, all the big lawyers in Jhansi, they were my friends. They said that, "You shall not go. We shall arrange." I thought that, "I have left my home, for this reason I am going to, again, litigation. I don't want this house. Let her do something." Hari-śauri: The League of Devotees, was that Godbrothers again? Or . . .? Was that some Godbrothers that you joined up with, or was that just . . . Prabhupāda: No, after leaving Jhansi I went to this Godbrother. Hari-śauri: Keśava. *Prabhupāda: I lived there for few months. Then I went to another Godbrother, that Imlitala, Delhi. Then I left there. I used to live alone in Delhi. Then I took one house in Keśī*-ghāṭa. Then the Rādhā-Dāmodara men, they called me that, "You can live here. We give you two rooms. We don't charge. We give you the place." I came to Rādhā-Dāmodara. And from Rādhā-Dāmodara temple I went USA. Hari-śauri: I was just wondering what exactly the League of Devotees was. Prabhupāda: Oh, League was that, that was . . . I was trying to collect some devotees. Some of them, they were medical . . . yes. Medical students. So they came and used to live with me. But still, I lived there for two years, from 1954 to '56. I had some surgical operation in my testicles there. They were taking care. This Prabhākāra and . . . they were not full time; they were students, that's all. They were living with me. Hari-śauri: But your Bhāgavatams , it says they were published by the League of Devotees. Does that just mean yourself, or there were others? Prabhupāda: (laughs) That was . . . League of Devotees was my organization. Therefore I gave that name. Hari-śauri: But actually it was just you. Oh. Prabhupāda: That League of Devotees, I was alone doing. (laughs) Hari-śauri: (laughing) I was trying to understand who it could be. Prabhupāda: I am everything at that time. There were some students, but they were not very active. I was doing everything. That League of Devotees means I am everything. I wanted to organize with this Prabhākāra Miśra and others, but they were not interested to be . . . Hari-śauri: Not to become Vaiṣṇavas. *Prabhupāda: No, to devote whole time. They were . . . just like Prabhākāra comes still. But if you ask him to do full*-time work, that he'll not do. Therefore I did not initiate others. He was initiated, harinam . But they were all learned scholars, Sanskrit. Hari-śauri: Do any of them come now? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Do any of them come now apart from Prabhākāra? Prabhupāda: Hmm? No, they are, they have gone in the . . . they are practicing as medical men. They were students, medical students. Now they are practicing. Hari-śauri: They don't come to see you or anything now? Prabhupāda: Sometime they came. Long time it is passed. That was in 1956 or '55. No, '54. Hari-śauri: In Jhansi. Prabhupāda: So, twenty years past. More than twenty years. You can speak of twenty years' history. What is that? Devotee: Um. (end) Prabhupāda: People have got already very respect now for the . . . (break) You should maintain the temple. They already call it angrej (English) temple. But still people come. But if you make a mleccha temple . . . actually, (laughs) they can say like that, but still they come. But their awe and veneration may be disturbed . . . may not be disturbed. That is management. Hari-śauri: One of the things they haven't been able to criticize us for is our Deity worship. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: One of the things they can't criticize is our Deity worship, because it's a lot better than anywhere else. Prabhupāda: But we are not above criticism. Hari-śauri: Oh, no, they criticize us for plenty of other things. Akṣayānanda: So many discrepancies. Even that does not mean . . . Hari-śauri: That's one point . . . that was one point in our favor, so we should maintain it. Prabhupāda: The servant should be kept only when that is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, everything should be done by us. Haṁsadūta: I understand that, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: They are paying two thousand rupees. Haṁsadūta: 'Till now, as far as possible, I've let a number of people go already. But until I can get the devotees to do these engagements, I can't let the servant go. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right, but devotees, why they shall not do? Haṁsadūta: Well, that is the . . . Prabhupāda: If they are unwilling to do, then they must remain in the guesthouse as a respectable guest. Haṁsadūta: I'm finding that's happening. I have so many devotees who stay in the guesthouse, because they're not willing to be engaged. Prabhupāda: They are paying? Haṁsadūta: They are paying, yes. So it will have to be dealt with very, very tactfully, because for a long time there's been so many devotees here who just have not been engaged. And now someone is coming and he's trying to capture them . . . Prabhupāda: Reluctant to work. Haṁsadūta: . . . trying to take account of their time, and they become upset. They think, "Oh, now this man is going to take my time." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Haṁsadūta: Just for example . . . (break) ". . . chanting from nine to twelve, could you please chant then?" She became furious. She said: "I am already making garlands for four hours. I have no time." Prabhupāda: No, no, if she is making garlands, that is another thing. *Haṁsadūta: I know, but it's only four hours, and I said there are twenty*-four hours, so that leaves twenty hours left over. It will take a little time to account their time and convince them that they have to accept more and more engagement. Hari-śauri: It's like pulling a tooth. Prabhupāda: No, if somebody is engaged in some business, so he may not chant. That concession may be given. But chanting . . . Haṁsadūta: But, actually . . . Prabhupāda: It is not very compulsory. Take it. *Haṁsadūta: But if we want to have a twenty*-four-hour kīrtana , I was speaking . . . Prabhupāda: If that is not available, not possible, don't be very serious. But these things must be done. Haṁsadūta: Yes. It's just that I want to comply with all your desires. *Prabhupāda: That may be taken as voluntarily. But nobody can sit idly. That is the point. If one is engaged in making for flower garland, all right, you may not take him. It is not compulsory for you. The twenty*-four-hours kīrtana may . . . suppose if we haven't got sufficient men, it is not possible. It is required if there is sufficient men and they are not . . . we must see that they are not wasting uselessly time. That is the . . . if they are engaged in some business, there is no compulsory that he has to go and chant. But these things are . . . *Śrī*-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau. That is compulsory. It must be done by you or me or . . . it must be done early in the morning. Whole temple should be . . . there is sufficient water supply in the pipe. Simply it takes half an hour. It is neglected. I see the temple is not washed. There's so much dust. Akṣayānanda: We used to wash it three times a day. Prabhupāda: How it is stopped? Akṣayānanda: With great difficulty, of course. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: With great difficulty. But still, it can be done. Prabhupāda: So these devotees, they come here not to work. Akṣayānanda: It is a fashion. They come to be bābājīs . Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Akṣayānanda: Like that. Consciousness is like that. Haṁsadūta: Yesterday two girls came. One came from Paris and one came from Australia. When I asked them, "Did anyone send you for a particular engagement?" They said: "No, I just left." "How did you get your money?" "From my family." Then, "Why did you come?" "We just wanted to see Vṛndāvana," and like that. And in this way, every day someone is coming, and as soon as I want to . . . they will say: "Well, I didn't come for this. I came . . ." Prabhupāda: But that's all right, if they then remain in the paying guest. Haṁsadūta: Yes. I don't want to discourage them, but at the same time I can't have people just sitting around. Prabhupāda: No, those who are coming for excursion, they can remain in the paying guest room. Pay for food, pay for . . . otherwise, one has to be engaged. Devotee must voluntarily engage. Why one has to be requested? They should be very glad. Hari-śauri: They're not very conscious about doing service. Prabhupāda: But this is the service. Akṣayānanda: He used to be the temple commander, Hari-śauri. He had a very difficult time, before, about a year ago, I think. He used to be the temple commander, and nobody would . . . Hari-śauri: I had to practically throw them out the room sometimes to do some work. Akṣayānanda: This center particularly has just always been like that. (break) Haṁsadūta: All the anxiety is how to get some fruit to maintain their body nicely. Very few devotees can actually accept engagement and maintain good health and a good consciousness, because the change for Western people for India is so extraordinary that it disturbs their mind, and consequently their body is disturbed, and then all they think about is how to maintain their body. Akṣayānanda: They're used to eating large quantities of food. Here it cannot be done. Haṁsadūta: And if I ask them . . . they're used to eating huge amounts of very rich foods. Prabhupāda: Where? Hari-śauri: In the West. Haṁsadūta: In the Western temples. They get so many nice foodstuffs which are not available here, and when they become sick, then they . . . Prabhupāda: What rich food? Haṁsadūta: Oh, like sour cream and butter and so many things, and all kinds of fruits and vegetables. Akṣayānanda: In the West, the devotees must eat about four times as much as the ones in India who are not sick. The ones in India . . . Prabhupāda: I see that here they eat more. Hari-śauri: They appear to eat a lot. But I don't know. The food here is not . . . Akṣayānanda: Not so rich. Hari-śauri: It's not got so much nutritional value. Akṣayānanda: It's simpler. Hari-śauri: But I've seen boys here, they have been here a year or two years and they've had dysentery constantly, because they cannot control their tongues. They eat, and then they get sick, they get dysentery, so they say: "Oh, I need boiled this and fruit and this and that." But then again you see them on the first feast, or something like that, they're eating kachorī or this or that, stuff cooked in ghee. And then immediately they become sick again, and they can't do any work all the time, and at the same time they refuse to control their tongues to get better. They stay on that platform. Always sick, but not eating the correct food. Haṁsadūta: This is one of our biggest problems. Just as you say, when someone gets sick he should fast. I tell them, "Stop eating. You'll get well immediately. If you have fever, don't eat. Take water, lemon. You'll be all right in a few days." They have not realized the function of the body, how their own body is functioning, and they insist on eating. They get sicker and sicker. They complicate things. I've seen so many people get incredibly complicated digestive diseases. And then they can't work. They get jaundice, they get dysentery, amoebic dysentery, boils—all these things come from taking too much food. And then they want to change their diet. Although they change their diet, they eat so much of the changed diet that it also has no effect. Akṣayānanda: Yes, true. Actually, this is the main problem. Haṁsadūta: And then they require money for medicine. I have spent so much money on medicine. Now I have stopped it. I tell them, "First you fast for three days, and if you don't get better I'll give you some money for medicine." But they are constantly running to this hospital, getting this pill and that pill. All these pills are useless. The real problem is they are just overeating. And of course, when they overeat they want to sleep. Because India is hot. And when they sleep, then they get dysentery. And when they get dysentery they can't engage. And in this way they run into a cycle which is very difficult to break. Only very few devotees are able to maintain themselves in India for any length of time. I see a nice strong man comes, and I look at him and I see him eat and I say: "Within a week this man is going to be sick." And sure enough, he's sick. He's laying down, he's got fever, he's got dysentery, he's going to the hospital. In this way we have so many people like that. Akṣayānanda: They become so weak that they can't work anyway. Hari-śauri: So they just become a liability. Haṁsadūta: I had one devotee, his name was Rad . . . (break) . . . you know and you know. He does nothing at all. He's always sick. But at prasādam he eats more than any other man. I told him, "Prabhu, you're a doctor. You should know that if you eat so much food you can't digest, you're going to be sick." He says: "No, I'm so weak I require food. I have to. I can't get any strength." So I asked him, "At least sit down in the temple and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." He said: "I can't . . ." Prabhupāda: I have seen. Some of them eat so much I am surprised. Akṣayānanda: But the ones who eat that much, they are the ones who are always sick. They're the ones. Prabhupāda: Overeating means sick. Hari-śauri: I used to eat a lot, but I used to burn it all off. Akṣayānanda: They don't know if you eat a lot and then work very hard, that's all right. But they eat a lot and then sleep a lot, as Mahārāja said. If they would simply work. Eat a lot, all right, but then work very hard. Then it's all digested. Hari-śauri: They eat a lot at midday, and then they're useless for the rest of the day. Sleep two or three hours in the afternoon and then stagger out for ārati . Akṣayānanda: Now they eat in the morning. Prabhupāda: So, how to manage this? It is very difficult. Akṣayānanda: I thought it was better when they were eating at noon. At least they'd work before they ate, work before eating. But I don't know. But even then the thing wasn't going any better. Hari-śauri: I've found if you want things to go on, you have to make them do it. That's all. Because they don't have sufficient realization to volunteer to work. Prabhupāda: They have to be . . . one man say: "You come here, you do this, you do this." Then it will be done. *Hari-śauri: Like this twenty*-four-hour . . . Prabhupāda: The temple commander must be a very able man. Hari-śauri: He's got to be a heavy man. I was telling Haṁsadūta, when I was here I tried for so long to get the kīrtana going at nighttime, and they wouldn't turn up or they'd fall asleep, or this or that. And so many people would refuse to do it. I could only get maybe five or six men out of the whole temple who would volunteer to do it. So we worked it out. We made a list of all the people who could possibly chant at night. Everyone. I even put the pūjārīs down, because we were short of men. And then we said: "Now you either chant . . ." Prabhupāda: No, pūjārīs , they have to rise early. Hari-śauri: Well, yes, but apart from that . . . we told them, "Now you either chant this one hour at night or you go." We made 'em chant. And then everything went very nicely. No one . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you do now? Hari-śauri: Well I told him that. He's going to do it. Prabhupāda: Not tell him, but you do it. (chuckles) Haṁsadūta: No, his suggestion is good, because one hour they can do. I've noticed . . . Your Divine Grace suggested three hours . . . Prabhupāda: Three hours continually not possible. Make it one hour. Haṁsadūta: It's impossible. Not a single person can do it. Akṣayānanda: (indistinct) . . . (end) Prabhupāda: People have got already very respect now for the . . . (break) You should maintain the temple. They already call it angrej (English) temple. But still people come. But if you make a mleccha temple . . . actually, (laughs) they can say like that, but still they come. But their awe and veneration may be disturbed . . . may not be disturbed. That is management. Hari-śauri: One of the things they haven't been able to criticize us for is our Deity worship. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: One of the things they can't criticize is our Deity worship, because it's a lot better than anywhere else. Prabhupāda: But we are not above criticism. Hari-śauri: Oh, no, they criticize us for plenty of other things. Akṣayānanda: So many discrepancies. Even that does not mean . . . Hari-śauri: That's one point . . . that was one point in our favor, so we should maintain it. Prabhupāda: The servant should be kept only when that is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, everything should be done by us. Haṁsadūta: I understand that, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: They are paying two thousand rupees. Haṁsadūta: 'Till now, as far as possible, I've let a number of people go already. But until I can get the devotees to do these engagements, I can't let the servant go. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right, but devotees, why they shall not do? Haṁsadūta: Well, that is the . . . Prabhupāda: If they are unwilling to do, then they must remain in the guesthouse as a respectable guest. Haṁsadūta: I'm finding that's happening. I have so many devotees who stay in the guesthouse, because they're not willing to be engaged. Prabhupāda: They are paying? Haṁsadūta: They are paying, yes. So it will have to be dealt with very, very tactfully, because for a long time there's been so many devotees here who just have not been engaged. And now someone is coming and he's trying to capture them . . . Prabhupāda: Reluctant to work. Haṁsadūta: . . . trying to take account of their time, and they become upset. They think, "Oh, now this man is going to take my time." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Haṁsadūta: Just for example . . . (break) ". . . chanting from nine to twelve, could you please chant then?" She became furious. She said: "I am already making garlands for four hours. I have no time." Prabhupāda: No, no, if she is making garlands, that is another thing. *Haṁsadūta: I know, but it's only four hours, and I said there are twenty*-four hours, so that leaves twenty hours left over. It will take a little time to account their time and convince them that they have to accept more and more engagement. Hari-śauri: It's like pulling a tooth. Prabhupāda: No, if somebody is engaged in some business, so he may not chant. That concession may be given. But chanting . . . Haṁsadūta: But, actually . . . Prabhupāda: It is not very compulsory. Take it. *Haṁsadūta: But if we want to have a twenty*-four-hour kīrtana , I was speaking . . . Prabhupāda: If that is not available, not possible, don't be very serious. But these things must be done. Haṁsadūta: Yes. It's just that I want to comply with all your desires. *Prabhupāda: That may be taken as voluntarily. But nobody can sit idly. That is the point. If one is engaged in making for flower garland, all right, you may not take him. It is not compulsory for you. The twenty*-four-hours kīrtana may . . . suppose if we haven't got sufficient men, it is not possible. It is required if there is sufficient men and they are not . . . we must see that they are not wasting uselessly time. That is the . . . if they are engaged in some business, there is no compulsory that he has to go and chant. But these things are . . . *Śrī*-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau. That is compulsory. It must be done by you or me or . . . it must be done early in the morning. Whole temple should be . . . there is sufficient water supply in the pipe. Simply it takes half an hour. It is neglected. I see the temple is not washed. There's so much dust. Akṣayānanda: We used to wash it three times a day. Prabhupāda: How it is stopped? Akṣayānanda: With great difficulty, of course. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: With great difficulty. But still, it can be done. Prabhupāda: So these devotees, they come here not to work. Akṣayānanda: It is a fashion. They come to be bābājīs . Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Akṣayānanda: Like that. Consciousness is like that. Haṁsadūta: Yesterday two girls came. One came from Paris and one came from Australia. When I asked them, "Did anyone send you for a particular engagement?" They said: "No, I just left." "How did you get your money?" "From my family." Then, "Why did you come?" "We just wanted to see Vṛndāvana," and like that. And in this way, every day someone is coming, and as soon as I want to . . . they will say: "Well, I didn't come for this. I came . . ." Prabhupāda: But that's all right, if they then remain in the paying guest. Haṁsadūta: Yes. I don't want to discourage them, but at the same time I can't have people just sitting around. Prabhupāda: No, those who are coming for excursion, they can remain in the paying guest room. Pay for food, pay for . . . otherwise, one has to be engaged. Devotee must voluntarily engage. Why one has to be requested? They should be very glad. Hari-śauri: They're not very conscious about doing service. Prabhupāda: But this is the service. Akṣayānanda: He used to be the temple commander, Hari-śauri. He had a very difficult time, before, about a year ago, I think. He used to be the temple commander, and nobody would . . . Hari-śauri: I had to practically throw them out the room sometimes to do some work. Akṣayānanda: This center particularly has just always been like that. (break) Haṁsadūta: All the anxiety is how to get some fruit to maintain their body nicely. Very few devotees can actually accept engagement and maintain good health and a good consciousness, because the change for Western people for India is so extraordinary that it disturbs their mind, and consequently their body is disturbed, and then all they think about is how to maintain their body. Akṣayānanda: They're used to eating large quantities of food. Here it cannot be done. Haṁsadūta: And if I ask them . . . they're used to eating huge amounts of very rich foods. Prabhupāda: Where? Hari-śauri: In the West. Haṁsadūta: In the Western temples. They get so many nice foodstuffs which are not available here, and when they become sick, then they . . . Prabhupāda: What rich food? Haṁsadūta: Oh, like sour cream and butter and so many things, and all kinds of fruits and vegetables. Akṣayānanda: In the West, the devotees must eat about four times as much as the ones in India who are not sick. The ones in India . . . Prabhupāda: I see that here they eat more. Hari-śauri: They appear to eat a lot. But I don't know. The food here is not . . . Akṣayānanda: Not so rich. Hari-śauri: It's not got so much nutritional value. Akṣayānanda: It's simpler. Hari-śauri: But I've seen boys here, they have been here a year or two years and they've had dysentery constantly, because they cannot control their tongues. They eat, and then they get sick, they get dysentery, so they say: "Oh, I need boiled this and fruit and this and that." But then again you see them on the first feast, or something like that, they're eating kachorī or this or that, stuff cooked in ghee. And then immediately they become sick again, and they can't do any work all the time, and at the same time they refuse to control their tongues to get better. They stay on that platform. Always sick, but not eating the correct food. Haṁsadūta: This is one of our biggest problems. Just as you say, when someone gets sick he should fast. I tell them, "Stop eating. You'll get well immediately. If you have fever, don't eat. Take water, lemon. You'll be all right in a few days." They have not realized the function of the body, how their own body is functioning, and they insist on eating. They get sicker and sicker. They complicate things. I've seen so many people get incredibly complicated digestive diseases. And then they can't work. They get jaundice, they get dysentery, amoebic dysentery, boils—all these things come from taking too much food. And then they want to change their diet. Although they change their diet, they eat so much of the changed diet that it also has no effect. Akṣayānanda: Yes, true. Actually, this is the main problem. Haṁsadūta: And then they require money for medicine. I have spent so much money on medicine. Now I have stopped it. I tell them, "First you fast for three days, and if you don't get better I'll give you some money for medicine." But they are constantly running to this hospital, getting this pill and that pill. All these pills are useless. The real problem is they are just overeating. And of course, when they overeat they want to sleep. Because India is hot. And when they sleep, then they get dysentery. And when they get dysentery they can't engage. And in this way they run into a cycle which is very difficult to break. Only very few devotees are able to maintain themselves in India for any length of time. I see a nice strong man comes, and I look at him and I see him eat and I say: "Within a week this man is going to be sick." And sure enough, he's sick. He's laying down, he's got fever, he's got dysentery, he's going to the hospital. In this way we have so many people like that. Akṣayānanda: They become so weak that they can't work anyway. Hari-śauri: So they just become a liability. Haṁsadūta: I had one devotee, his name was Rad . . . (break) . . . you know and you know. He does nothing at all. He's always sick. But at prasādam he eats more than any other man. I told him, "Prabhu, you're a doctor. You should know that if you eat so much food you can't digest, you're going to be sick." He says: "No, I'm so weak I require food. I have to. I can't get any strength." So I asked him, "At least sit down in the temple and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." He said: "I can't . . ." Prabhupāda: I have seen. Some of them eat so much I am surprised. Akṣayānanda: But the ones who eat that much, they are the ones who are always sick. They're the ones. Prabhupāda: Overeating means sick. Hari-śauri: I used to eat a lot, but I used to burn it all off. Akṣayānanda: They don't know if you eat a lot and then work very hard, that's all right. But they eat a lot and then sleep a lot, as Mahārāja said. If they would simply work. Eat a lot, all right, but then work very hard. Then it's all digested. Hari-śauri: They eat a lot at midday, and then they're useless for the rest of the day. Sleep two or three hours in the afternoon and then stagger out for ārati . Akṣayānanda: Now they eat in the morning. Prabhupāda: So, how to manage this? It is very difficult. Akṣayānanda: I thought it was better when they were eating at noon. At least they'd work before they ate, work before eating. But I don't know. But even then the thing wasn't going any better. Hari-śauri: I've found if you want things to go on, you have to make them do it. That's all. Because they don't have sufficient realization to volunteer to work. Prabhupāda: They have to be . . . one man say: "You come here, you do this, you do this." Then it will be done. *Hari-śauri: Like this twenty*-four-hour . . . Prabhupāda: The temple commander must be a very able man. Hari-śauri: He's got to be a heavy man. I was telling Haṁsadūta, when I was here I tried for so long to get the kīrtana going at nighttime, and they wouldn't turn up or they'd fall asleep, or this or that. And so many people would refuse to do it. I could only get maybe five or six men out of the whole temple who would volunteer to do it. So we worked it out. We made a list of all the people who could possibly chant at night. Everyone. I even put the pūjārīs down, because we were short of men. And then we said: "Now you either chant . . ." Prabhupāda: No, pūjārīs , they have to rise early. Hari-śauri: Well, yes, but apart from that . . . we told them, "Now you either chant this one hour at night or you go." We made 'em chant. And then everything went very nicely. No one . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you do now? Hari-śauri: Well I told him that. He's going to do it. Prabhupāda: Not tell him, but you do it. (chuckles) Haṁsadūta: No, his suggestion is good, because one hour they can do. I've noticed . . . Your Divine Grace suggested three hours . . . Prabhupāda: Three hours continually not possible. Make it one hour. Haṁsadūta: It's impossible. Not a single person can do it. Akṣayānanda: (indistinct) . . . (end) (Arrival Talk at House of Surendra Kumar Saigal) *Prabhupāda: . . . very glad to see you again. So this saṅkīrtana is all*-glorious. That is the blessings of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. This is His blessing: simply by saṅkīrtana , in this age. It is confirmed in the Vedic literature, in Vedānta-sūtra, śabdād anāvṛtti. Anāvṛtti , liberation. Our present position is bondage. We are bound up by the laws of nature. We may foolishly declare independence—that is our foolishness—but actually we are bound up by the laws of nature. We are bound up by the laws of nature, but those who are fools, vimūdhātmā , under false prestige, such person thinks that he is independent. No. That is not. *So this is misunderstanding. So this misunderstanding has to be cleaned. That is the aim of life. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends that if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , then the first installment of benefit is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Because misunderstanding means within the heart. If the heart is clear, consciousness is clear, then there is no misunderstanding. So this consciousness has to be cleansed, and that is the first installment of the result of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅga paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa's, kṛṣṇasya , holy name of Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma, the same thing. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa there is no difference. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan (BS 5.39). So we require. The present position is misunderstanding that, "I am product of this material nature," "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am kṣatriya ," and so on, so on . . . so many designations. But we are none of them. This is the clearing. Ceto-darpaṇa. When you understand clearly that "I am not a Indian, I'm not a American, I'm not brāhmaṇa , I'm not kṣatriya "—means "I am not this body"—then the consciousness will be ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Brahmā-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). This is wanted. This is success of life. Otherwise, if we remain in darkness of our existence . . . everyone is abodha-jāto . Anyone born in this material world in different platform . . . one may take birth as demigod in the heavenly planets or one may take birth as a human being in the lower planets. And lower than that, animal, plants. There are 8,400,000 different species of life. *So any form of life, we are bound up by the laws of nature, and bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). The puruṣaḥ . . . puruṣaḥ means the living entity. Puruṣaḥ . . . actually, nobody is puruṣaḥ; *everyone is prakṛti. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtim parā (BG 7.5). Parā prakṛti. The material, matter, is the aparā*-prakṛti , and spirit soul is parā-prakṛti . So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly explained, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). This is . . . bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā . This is separated. This is also nature, but inferior. Apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā . There is another prakṛti . What is that? Jīva-bhūto , this living entity. So living entity is also prakṛti , but because he has the tendency to enjoy this material world, he is sometimes described as puruṣaḥ . Puruṣaḥ means enjoyer, and prakṛti means enjoyed. So the prakṛti forgets her position, and artificially he wants to become puruṣaḥ. *So this puruṣaḥ, prakṛti 'stho . . . puruṣaḥ prakṛti 'stho bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān , so long he's in this material world, he has to associate with the modes of material nature, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān . And on account of the influence of the prakṛti-jān guṇa , he has to take different types of body. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti 'stho bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). This is the kāraṇa. He's associating with a particular type of the modes of prakṛti-jān guṇān—sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa —and on account of this he gets different types of body. You have to change your body. Dehāntaram. Tathā dehāntaram-prāptir (BG 2.13). But different grades of body is awarded by the laws of nature according to our karma, karmaṇā daiva netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). *So this is . . . our material position is that we are associating with different modes of material nature, and that is infection. If you become infected with some disease, germs, then you have to suffer from that disease. You cannot check it. Similarly, this infection will give us our next body. That we do not know. This is a rascal civilization. They're kept into the darkness, that how things are going on. Their so*-called education, universities . . . so whatever they are doing, they are all being defeated. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam (SB 5.5.5). Ātma-tattvam . Unless one is inquisitive to understand, "What I am?" whatever he is doing, he's being defeated. That's all. Parābhavaḥ. *So the human life is meant for understanding what is the position, "What I am?" This is the intelligence. When Sanātana Gosvāmī approached Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu he was minister, very big man, but he understood that "What I am doing is not to my interest, because I do not know what I am." He submitted to Caitanya Mahāprabhu that grāmya*-vyavahāre kahe paṇḍita satya kari māni (CC Madhya 20.100): that "In my relationship with my neighbors, they call 'paṇḍitjī' .'" He was brāhmaṇa . "So I accept it, 'Yes, I am paṇḍit .'" So what is the wrong? "The wrong is that I am such a paṇḍita that I do not know what I am." (laughs) So ask anybody. Our Dr. Sukla is also . . . (chuckles) So ask any doctor, "What you are?" "Huh? I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa ." This answer you'll get. "I'm American." Nobody will say ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Nobody will say. Nobody will say, because he does not know. So what is the value of this education if one does not know what he is? Therefore śāstra says parābhavaḥ . In ignorance, gross ignorance, anything we are doing, that is parābhava . So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to save the people from this defeating position. We are trying . . . so far I have tried single-handed. And now the . . . a little pressure is felt even by some American politicians. Recently one American politician has remarked that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is just like epidemic. (laughs) And if we do not take any step, then within ten years they'll take our government." So the Communists in India, they are trying to defeat us in so many ways. Surendra Kumar Saigal: We have seen the articles in Blitz. *Prabhupāda: Because they are also afraid. Because the Communist movement means godlessness. And our movement is, "Here is God." There is no blind faith. "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa! You take His name, you take His address—everything." Practical. So that is a great cause of fear for these Communists. So they are against us. So now I shall request the śreṣṭhas , those who are leading persons in India, they should join this movement, take it seriously. It is not a bogus movement. It is a scientific movement. And we have so many books. Now, at the present moment, we have got eighty*-four books. So that is my request, that people should come forward. (whispering in background) They should come forward and take seriously this movement. And we have got our places. In Bombay we have got big place. In Vṛndāvana we have got big place. In Nadia we have got big place. At least elderly gentlemen like you, now you should retire from family life and leave in charge of the grown-up boys. You should take seriously, for India's interest, for everyone's interest, but as we want . . . *We should not keep people in darkness. That is very risky. Very risky. But you may be very proud that, "I am this, I am that. I have to . . ." but you are after all under the control of the laws of nature. That you cannot avoid. You may be falsely proud, but you have to abide by it. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is not so easy. Actually, nature's law, you can eat once chatak . If you eat little more than that, then there is indigestion immediately—you have to go to the doctor. So what is your independence? You cannot violate a little portion of the laws of nature. So many. In every step. As soon as you violate, immediately there is punishment. And still, we are declaring independence. Asatyam. (aside) What is that? Where is Bhagavad*-gītā ? Find out. Jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad ahur anīśvaram. "There is no God." Why you say there is no . . .? You are under control. There is a controller—otherwise, how you are under control? So this foolishness must be stopped in order to make them happy, really happy. Otherwise, if they are kept into ignorance and things go on like this, then the future picture is very gloomy. It has already become gloomy, and future is very, very gloomy. So everyone should come forward, take this movement seriously, and at least, we are Indians, we should take care of Indians. We should not keep people in ignorance. That is not civilization. That is not civilization. Civilization means tamasi mā jyotir gama: come to the light. Don't keep yourself in darkness. That is not civilization. That . . . this civilization is keeping people in darkness. That is very risky. So we should take it very seriously and push this movement very scientifically, soberly, and people will be benefited. Any question? Indian man (son of Surendra Kumar): What are the . . . our Prime Minister's view regarding this movement? Prabhupāda: So far I know, she likes this movement. But she is also not independent. Son of Surendra Kumar: That's true. Nobody is independent. Even she. *Prabhupāda: Recently, one of my students met the Home Minister. He said: "Yes, this movement should be spread all over the world." They are appreciating. But there are different parties, different circumstances. Our four items—no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no gambling—so I think they are taking some steps on this ground. They are trying to stop cow-killing. *Indian man (2): Yes, they have already banned cow*-killing. Prabhupāda: And they are going to take steps for intoxication. Indian man (2): Stopping intoxication and actually, these are the things which can build up the character of the nation and . . . Prabhupāda: No!no! We are already intoxicated in material existence, and if more intoxication is there, then very . . . Indian man (2): Yes. From bad to worse. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this civilization, this education is simply misleading. Simply misleading. There is no enlightenment of this question, "What I am?" No. No answer. Surendra Kumar: Mahārāja, now we have present here some Life Members of ISKCON. Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) Life Members should be active Life Members. (laughter) Yes. Aur isme kuch sandeh hai toh puchiye. (And if there is any doubt about this then ask.) If there is any doubt. Surendra Kumar: Mahārāja, the one who brought ISKCON to this house is that boy, son of my . . . who became first Life Member of ISKCON. Prabhupāda: Oh, very intelligent. Indian man (2): Subodh. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: His name is Subodha and which means the understanding. Prabhupāda: Very intelligent. Subodha means . . . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Good Understanding. Prabhupāda: Just, just I was talking of abodh . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes. Indian man (2): Abodh . (laughter) Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes. So far you had been mentioning . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, abodha*-jāto . *Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes, abodha*-jāto and he is already subodha . Prabhupāda: He is subodha . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: He knows his . . . (indistinct) . . . evaṁ budhe paraṁ buddha . Surendra Kumar: You were suggesting to me that . . . Prabhupāda: Parābhavaḥ. One who is abodha , he is parābhava. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Parābhava , defeated. Prabhupāda: Defeat. And one is subodha , he is victory. So human life is meant for becoming subhodha , not abodha . But they are keeping abodha . This is the difficulty. Everyone is abodha . *Indian man (2): Mahārāja, I had a gentleman talking to me who is very intimate with Sanjay Gandhi. And he was telling me that Sanjay Gandhi very forcefully hinted, "Why are you people not working now? Why is the Arya*-samaj silent? Why the other powerful sects and movements are not working? Why have you taken this country into the hands of Muslims?" These were his words. "Why do you want that the country should depend, or the government should depend, on the support of Muslims? Where are you? What are you doing? Why don't you come up?" Indian man: But our government is supporting them all right, you see. Surendra Kumar: Swami Mahārāja said that they are forces which, when if you want to keep yourself in power, you have to sometimes bend and this . . . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: That's true. *Prabhupāda: Apart from government, the first thing is that the . . . sometimes we say "Rāma*-rājya." The Rāma-rājya means . . . there is a verse in Bhāgavatam that when Lord Rāmacandra took charge of the . . . after coming back from the forest, His brother Bhārata surrendered and He took charge of the kingdom. So the residents, the subjects, are described as a varṇāśrama guṇānvitā . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Varnāśrama gunan . . .? *Prabhupāda: Guṇānvitā. So Rāma*-rājya can be established. And it is said there that Lord Rāmacandra was maintaining the kingdom, taking the citizens as His own son. Pitṛvat rāma . It is said there. Pitṛvat . As the father of the family takes charge of the children very nicely, it is the government's duty to become the sensible father of the citizens. And the citizens should be qualified following the institution of varṇāśrama . Then there will be Rāma-rājya . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: That's the most scientific understanding . . . Surendra Kumar: No. Prabhupāda had rightly said in one of the meetings in Delhi that you people try to follow people who are in power. If Indira Gandhi were to do mālā just like this, I'm sure millions of people in India would be doing mālā like this. So she's doing that. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). Surendra Kumar: "But you will not follow me because I have no political power; therefore you have not . . ." Aise bhi mala japo, kyun apne idhar udhar ki baat sohte ho. Bhagvan ka naam lo wo nahi karega. Lekin Indraji karne lagenge Sanjay gandhi karne lage, toh sab log ke gale me mala daal ne lagenge aur wo karne lagenge. That is why we chant. Why you are thinking of talks of here and there. Take names of lord that you will not do. But if Indraji and Sanjay Gandhi will do then everybody will put flower garlands on their neck and then they will follow. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yatha Raja tatha praja . Surendra Kumar: He is my eldest grandson. Aur ye Sanadar me . . . (indistinct) (And in Sanadar he is . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: He is subhoda or abodha . (laughter) Surendra Kumar: No, he is Suvrata , Suvrata . Prabhupāda: Suvrata . . . Kya arth hota hai batao? (What is the meaning of Suvrata , tell me?) Surendra Kumar: Please describe God. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Do you know what is God? Do you know? Surendra Kumar: Do you know what is God or not? Suvrata: I want to know. Surendra Kumar: I want to know. Prabhupāda: Do you know the meaning of the God? Suvrata: No. Then how you are asking what is God? If I say something wrong, how you'll understand? If you do not know . . . suppose you go to purchase something, "Give me gold," and if he gives you iron, then what you'll do? If you do not know what is God, gold. You must know first of all what is God. Then you ask. If you do not know, then you'll be cheated. That is going on. That is going on. Surendra Kumar: Mahārāja, but there must be somebody to say that, "This is gold and this is iron." Prabhupāda: Yes, that means requires a superior education. Surendra Kumar: Superior education. Prabhupāda: Yes. The father, mother should be responsible . . . Surendra Kumar: So who can be a greater than your Divine Grace? *Prabhupāda: No, no. The father, father . . . the first thing is that why do you send your sons to the school? It is the duty that he should know. So if the father is a rascal, then how the son can be subodha ? (laughter) Therefore the śāstra says that unless you can train your son to overcome this process of birth, death, old . . . don't become a father. You remain a rascal. Don't beget children. This is contraception. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum (SB 5.5.18). The real problem is mṛtyu . But they have taken it that, "It is ordinary thing." But nobody wants to die. The education is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). But who knows that I do not die after the destruction of the body? Then why I am put into this position that I have to change this body, I have to die? This question does not arise. Therefore they're abodha . The instruction is, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). There is no inquiry that, "If I'm not born, why I am born in this body?" This is question. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . "If I am not subjected to death, then why I am dying?" This question does not arise at all. Therefore everyone is abodha-jāto . Nobody is subodha . Everyone is abodha . The problem is there, but he does not inquire. Indian lady (daughter of Surendra Kumar): Excuse me. Mahārāja, don't you think it's high time that some of our Indian philosophy or Indian religion, some classes should be started in schools like they used to have and missionaries used to have scripture classes in schools. There should be in all the schools, I mean, classes on our own religion instead of learning somebody else's. *Prabhupāda: It is not only . . . when we say that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā . . . (BG 2.13), so as this boy, he was a child, now he has become a boy, then after few years he'll become a young man, and then he'll become middle*-aged man, then he'll become old man—so this is not "Our religion," "Your religion." This is fact, scientific. When Bhagavad-gītā says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā , that is not meant for the so-called Hindus. It is meant for the Muslim, meant for the Christian, everyone. It is science. Religion is a kind of faith. That they describe. But religion is also not a blind faith. Religion means the order of God. That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Just like law means the order of the state. Similarly, religion means the order of God. So if you have no conception of God, if you do not know what is God, what is order, then where is religion? It is all bogus. Son of Surendra Kumar: What my sister was saying was that most of the parents do not understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. Son of Surendra Kumar: How they should bring up their progeny. Prabhupāda: Then at least they . . . Daughter of Surendra Kumar: Children should have . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: At least, the children should be . . . therefore I'm starting that gurukula in Vṛndāvana. So you come, you manage that, take the ideas, make your children . . . whatever mistake is done is done. Now why the mistake should continue? Rectify it. Indian man: Swamiji isme ek fark ye padta hai nah, agar hum apne aap karte hai toh secularism mai nahi aata hai. (Swamiji, the difference it makes is that if we do that, then it doesn't come under secularism.) Prabhupāda: Then kick out secularism. Kick out secularism. Indian man: Wo scientific nahi hai. (It is not scientific.) Prabhupāda: Science. It is science. Indian man: Science is nothing. What is God, what is nature, what is soul. Son of Surendra Kumar: You don't give it the name of one particular way. You simply deal it with the basic idea of transforming the human . . . *Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. When a child becomes a boy, there is no question of secularism. It is science. It is fact. Can you by secularism stop a child growing to become a boy? When I was explaining in South Africa, this thing, one Arya*-samaji friend, he criticized me, that "Why you are bringing Hindu ideas?" So I said: "Is it Hindu ideas? A child grows to become a boy. It is Hindu idea? Why you are so fool you're calling Hindu idea?" A child grows to become a boy. This is science. Son of Surendra Kumar: The law of nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). Naturally . . . *Prabhupāda: But because it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , they take it Hindu idea. This is nonsense. Indian man: Our approach is so wrong that people take it as . . . Prabhupāda: Immediately we can pass in a sectarian . . . Daughter of Surendra Kumar: That is why it is necessary to have this as a part of social studies like you have other subjects in schools. If it is not given any more . . . *Prabhupāda: But then, as soon as you say " Bhagavad*-gītā ," immediately, "Hindu." Son of Surendra Kumar: What sister wants to know is that how can we add in innumerable, rather, uncountless schools and colleges? The management will be most willing, I mean, the progressive management will be most willing to introduce classes where such laws of nature and such . . . on scientific line, without giving it a Hindu or religious name. That should be taught. A curriculum should be drawn up. Because we control some of the schools. Prabhupāda: That is my program. I am writing all book just only on this point, therefore they are coming. Otherwise, what is the use? They were Christians and Jews. What is the use of becoming Hindus? Son of Surendra Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So anyone wants to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they can understand easily if he joins, Hare Kṛṣṇa, chant. That is all right. If he wants to understand scientifically, there are eighty*-four books. Come on. Which way you want? Son of Surendra Kumar: No. What we want is a very simple curriculum. Elementary type. Prabhupāda: Simple, this is simple curriculum. Son of Surendra Kumar: So that they gradually, as a child grows into adolescence, when his intelligence also grows, his knowledge also grows. And then we give him still more deeper knowledge of the various things which we have been teaching on elementary basis. And then still deeper. Just like this. Prabhupāda: Just like this child, this boy, inquired, "What is God?" So he can be instructed that, "God is the supreme controller, just like your father is your controller." He'll accept this. Can you go against your father's will? He says no. He'll say, naturally. Son of Surendra Kumar: Sun rahe tum? (Are you listening?) . . . how he's spreading it. Prabhupāda: So, he'll understand English? He's angrej? (laughter) He looks like angrej. Son of Surendra Kumar: Maharaj hindi bhi bahut achi samjhta hai. (Mahārāja, he also understands Hindi very well.) Prabhupāda: Very good. Son of Surendra Kumar: Mahabharata, Ramayana sab padliya isne. (He reads *Mahābhārata* , *Rāmāyaṇa* etc.) Prabhupāda: Just like at home you are controlled by your parents. Is it not? You like to obey them? Son of Surendra Kumar: (to Suvrata) You like to obey them, or sometimes you don't want to obey them? *Prabhupāda: Similarly, you take the whole world as a big family. So there must be somebody father and controller. Otherwise, how it is being conducted? That is God, the supreme controller. Just like in your family the father is the controller, similarly, you take it in wide scale, broader scale, there must be somebody father. Therefore the Christians, they take it, "O Father, give us our daily bread." And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is also confirmed, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā . (break) Then he decided, "Yes, I shall fight." Kṛṣṇa inquired from him, "Now I have instructed you. Now, whatever you like you can do. And what is your decision?" Then he clearly said, "Yes, my decision is there. I'll fight." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). "As You advise, I understand that You want this fighting." So Vaiṣṇava means for the sake of Kṛṣṇa he can do anything. Not that he is lazy fellow, showing, "I have become very big Vaiṣṇava. Let me sleep under the name of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava must be very busy, always awaiting the order of the . . . ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). "What is Kṛṣṇa's order? What does He want?" and He is ready. Just like a servant is always ready to receive the order of the master. That is faithful servant. That is real servant and not that at night duty he is sleeping somewhere. No. That is not faithful servant. Faithful servant means always alert. And that is bhakti . Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam bhaktir uttama (CC Madhya 19.167). Simply one has to execute ānukūlyena , how Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. This is bhakti . *So the Hanumān is example. Hanumān was ordered to bring some medicine from some mountain. And he was a monkey, he was animal, he did not know how to pick up it—"Take the whole mountain. Execute the order. And then Rāmacandra and Lakṣmana, They'll find out what is that medicine." So this is Vaiṣṇava. In one's own capacity he should give the best service to the Lord and that is bhakti. Bhakti is not laziness. If somebody thinks that, "The bhaktas are lazy fellows, and they are out of the worldly activity," that is mistake. It is mistake. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam . Kṛṣṇa says personally, yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat tapasyasi yat kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27): "Come on! Do it for Me." That is bhakti . He does not say that "You become a lazy fellow. Give up your occupational duty and sleep and snore, and become a great devotee." No. He never says. He says that "You are attached to this kind of work. All right, do it, but the result you give Me," that is bhakti . "Arjuna, you are a military man. All right, I ask you to fight. You become a fighter and become My devotee." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me (BG 4.3). Just see. What is that? He was not chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa says, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: "You are very dear friend and My devotee." Did he go on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra . . . so not that imitation. Of course, ultimate is always be absorbed in glorifying the Lord. But not in the beginning. In the beginning you must work very hard; you come to the stage of pure devotional platform. Then you can fully engage yourself meditation or chanting. Not in the beginning. In the beginning you should be very expert and active. That is wanted. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . udilo , from the early in the morning, active. "Come on, chant. Come with Me so that others will see. If we make a party chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, so in the beginning they may be disturbed because they have been accustomed to sleep up to nine o'clock, but as they will hear, gradually they'll become purified. They'll receive it." *So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He practically did it, and He asked everyone to do it. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "This is My order." He could remain a big devotee at His home. He was very popular in Navadvīpa, even when He was twenty years old. But still, He took sannyāsa and went door to door, village to village, town to town in India, and He left His order, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma: "All over the world, as many towns and villages are there, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be . . ." (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). Not that "We are big, big gosvāmīs and bābājīs . We do not go out of Vṛndāvana." They say that "We do not go out of . . ." You are imitating them. (chuckles) Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma . And they have become very big Vaiṣṇava: "No, I don't go beyond the limits of Vṛndāvana." What is this nonsense? Did Caitanya Mahāprabhu say like that, that "You do not go beyond the limits . . ."? A devotee, wherever he is, that is Vṛndāvana. That is Vṛndāvana. Tīrtha-kurvanti tīrthāni (SB 1.13.10). A devotee, a pure devotee, can make any hell a tīrtha, a holy place. That is devotee. Tīrthī-kurvanti tīrthāni . That was Bhagīratha. Gaṅgā was hesitating, mother Gaṅgā, that "I shall go to the material world. People will take . . . all sinful men will take bathing, and I'll be overloaded with sin. Then how I shall get out of this sinful, accumulation of sins?" So the Bhagīratha said, "My mother, don't hesitate. When a holy man will take bath in your water, then all the sins he will assimilate." Then she agreed, "Yes. That's all right" So if we become holy man, actually, then immune. There is no difference. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. These are bogus that, "I do not go out of Vṛndāvana." They are making Vṛndāvana limited. Vṛndāvana is not limited. Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, wherever there is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple, that is Vṛndāvana. That is Vṛndāvana. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He, once only, He went to Vṛndāvana. Does it mean He was not in Vṛndāvana? So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that preaching must go on in hell and heaven. We should be very much expert and follow the instruction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the simple instructions. Mukunda mādhava yādava hari bolena bolo re vadana bori . Simply chant the holy names of Lord, mukunda mādhava yādava . This is Caitanya . . . rise early in the morning. You go preach, and work hard, day and night, and that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . this song indicates. That's all. Thank you. Devotees: Jaya . (offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ye jagah toh bahut hai, idhar ek mandir banayenge. (This place is very big. Here we will make a temple.) Surendra Kumar: Abhi toh urban ceiling act me, wo isme se zameen lena chahte hai. (Now in the urban ceiling act, they want to take a piece of land from this) Prabhupāda: Toh hum log ko de dijiye, mandir banalenge. Bahut aadmi de raha hai, bahut aadmi. (Then you give it to us and we will construct a temple. Many people are giving. Many people . . .) They are offering their . . . we have received one letter, telegram, from one gentleman. What is his name? Patel? Bhogilal Patel. He's very rich man. So I was sometimes guest in his house. He is very friendly. He comes to see me in Bombay. Old man. He is older than me, one or two years. But he has sent me one telegram, "Swāmījī, take this land, one hundred acres of land in Ahmedabad." Surendra Kumar: In . . .? Prabhupāda: Ahmedabad. Surendra Kumar: Ahmedabad. Prabhupāda: Yes. So . . . there are so many. One gentleman has offered land in Mahabaleshwar. Surendra Kumar: Mahabaleshwar. Prabhupāda: This is very costly place. Surendra Kumar: Very costly place and very nice place. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Very nice. And wherefrom other offers we have got? Haṁsadūta: Hyderabad we have. Prabhupāda: Hyderabad he has already . . . that is six hundred acres of land. What is the name of that place? Do you remember? Haṁsadūta: Where? Hyderabad? No. We called it New Naimiṣāraṇya. Prabhupāda: No, we have named New Naimiṣāraṇya. A very nice place. *Surendra Kumar: You'll get a lot of offers. And as you rightly said that these Vaiṣṇavas, they want to become maṭha*-deśas , they want to become like kings. They don't want to leave their empire and go out, working hard like you and spreading the message of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our mission. Surendra Kumar: That is the right attitude. Even if there is one bhakta , there is Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakta will create Vṛndāvana. Kṛṣṇa says, nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭha (Padma Purāṇa): "I do not stay in Vaikuṇṭha." Nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭhe yogināṁ hṛdayeṣu . "Neither I stay at the heart, core of the heart of the yogīs." Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad*-bhaktāḥ. "When My pure devotee chants the glories of My . . . I immediately stay there. I immediately stay." It's not that He is packed up in some place. He's all-pervading. Vasudeva. Vāsudeva. Therefore His name is Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). He's everywhere. Electricity is everywhere. Only one who knows how to take the electricity . . . so Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching and teaching, they're perfect. You have to follow. Then our life will be successful. Don't manufacture ideas. That is not wanted. Ye log manufacture kiya, ye hindu samdra ka par jaane se hi ekdum . . . (indistinct) hai na? And these people manufactured that this hindu as he crossed the ocean has become fallen. Isn't it? *Surendra Kumar: (indistinct) . . . Has fallen. Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). Bas toh samudra paar kaise nahi hoga? Ye sab chal raha hai. (But then how this ocean will not be crossed. These things are going on.) Foolish theories. Just see. As soon as you cross over the Bay of Bengal or Indian Ocean, you'll become immediately fallen. Surendra Kumar: You become an outcaste. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That's all. Our Madan Mohan Malaviya, he was invited Round Table conference. He took so much Ganges earth. He was mixing that Ganges earth with water. He's going for political purposes, and showing a . . . what is called? Hobby. This is not that. Now this movement is there, and unless we do it very sincerely and vigorously, it cannot be pushed on. Dekhiye na, Vrindaban me jitna goswami hai. (Now see in Vṛndāvana there are many goswamis .) Surendra Kumar: Ji. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Wo sab combine ho karke. bhi, ye humara koi pride ka baat nahi. Jo kaam humne kiya hai, wo nahi kar sakte. (Even if they combine. This is nothing related to my pride. But whatever work i have done they cannot do.) Surendra Kumar: Nahi kar sakte. Maharaaj, kitne honge apne ab ye disciples antardeshiye. (They cannot do. Mahārāja! How many disciples might be there all over the world.) Prabhupāda: Initiated hoga toh koi 10,000. Dekhiye is tarah se hai sab. (If initiated then 10,000. See this is like this . . .) Surendra Kumar: Initiated dus hazaar. (Initiated 10,000.) Prabhupāda: Aur ye sab followers log hai. Jo kitaab par rahe hai, ye jo daily 5 lakhs 6 lakhs jo kitaab beek raha hai, koi padta hai nahi koi . . . (indistinct) . . . Padta hai hum ko malum hai. (And like this there are many followers. Some are reading books daily five lakhs , six lakhs Books are selling somebody studies or comes and reads on street. I know that they study.) Surendra Kumar: Life member kitne hai humare? (There are how many Life Members.) Prabhupāda: Life members toh hum idhar hi kiya tha. (Life Member cultivation I have done here.) Surendra Kumar: Udhar nahi kiye? (There you haven't done.) Prabhupāda: No . . . Life Member. We have Life Member? Dhanañjaya: In London. London's about fifteen hundred. Haṁsadūta: Where? In London, Amsterdam and Montreal. We're making Life Members everywhere now. Dhanañjaya: Africa. Indian man: How many Life Members in India? Must have at least ten thousand. Prabhupāda: No. Indian man: Target must be 10,000. Prabhupāda: No. Indian, everyone should become a Life Member. Surendra Kumar: Certainly. Everybody like us are there with devotees. Prabhupāda: And it is India's duty that everyone should take up such a cultural movement. That is India's glory. I have given one statement, I do not know whether it is published. The, some of the places, they are against me. So where is that copy? Have you got that copy? Haṁsadūta: I don't know which . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. I've given one statement . . . Surendra Kumar: Mahārāja, have you sent that reply to that questionnaire which was sent to you from Bhavan's Journal? Bhavan's Journal sent you a questionnaire. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I have sent that answer. Eighty-four pages. For twenty*-one questions I have answered eighty-four pages. Surendra Kumar: I think in Delhi you must call a press conference. Prabhupāda: Aadmi itna dull hogaya, ye sab baat samajhta hi nahi. Samajhta hai, still leta nahi. (People have become so dull that they do not understand these talks. They understand still . . .) Surendra Kumar: Samajhta hai, lekin political jab tak ke yo usko politically ve kar leta, usko samjhne ki koshis nahi karta. (They understand but until and unless the politician accept, they don't want to understand.) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . by seeing him, if we remember Kṛṣṇa, he is Vaiṣṇava. He never said that you must be born in a brāhmaṇa family or . . . no. If by seeing him only one remembers Kṛṣṇa, then that person is Vaiṣṇava. Dhanañjaya: So couldn't that point be expressed to the government, somehow? Prabhupāda: Well, emergency government. (laughs) They can do anything immediately. Surendra Kumar: Sir, these nationalities, I mean . . . (break) (end) (Arrival Talk at House of Surendra Kumar Saigal) *Prabhupāda: . . . very glad to see you again. So this saṅkīrtana is all*-glorious. That is the blessings of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. This is His blessing: simply by saṅkīrtana , in this age. It is confirmed in the Vedic literature, in Vedānta-sūtra, śabdād anāvṛtti. Anāvṛtti , liberation. Our present position is bondage. We are bound up by the laws of nature. We may foolishly declare independence—that is our foolishness—but actually we are bound up by the laws of nature. We are bound up by the laws of nature, but those who are fools, vimūdhātmā , under false prestige, such person thinks that he is independent. No. That is not. *So this is misunderstanding. So this misunderstanding has to be cleaned. That is the aim of life. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends that if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , then the first installment of benefit is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Because misunderstanding means within the heart. If the heart is clear, consciousness is clear, then there is no misunderstanding. So this consciousness has to be cleansed, and that is the first installment of the result of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅga paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa's, kṛṣṇasya , holy name of Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma, the same thing. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa there is no difference. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan (BS 5.39). So we require. The present position is misunderstanding that, "I am product of this material nature," "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am kṣatriya ," and so on, so on . . . so many designations. But we are none of them. This is the clearing. Ceto-darpaṇa. When you understand clearly that "I am not a Indian, I'm not a American, I'm not brāhmaṇa , I'm not kṣatriya "—means "I am not this body"—then the consciousness will be ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Brahmā-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). This is wanted. This is success of life. Otherwise, if we remain in darkness of our existence . . . everyone is abodha-jāto . Anyone born in this material world in different platform . . . one may take birth as demigod in the heavenly planets or one may take birth as a human being in the lower planets. And lower than that, animal, plants. There are 8,400,000 different species of life. *So any form of life, we are bound up by the laws of nature, and bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). The puruṣaḥ . . . puruṣaḥ means the living entity. Puruṣaḥ . . . actually, nobody is puruṣaḥ; *everyone is prakṛti. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtim parā (BG 7.5). Parā prakṛti. The material, matter, is the aparā*-prakṛti , and spirit soul is parā-prakṛti . So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly explained, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). This is . . . bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā . This is separated. This is also nature, but inferior. Apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā . There is another prakṛti . What is that? Jīva-bhūto , this living entity. So living entity is also prakṛti , but because he has the tendency to enjoy this material world, he is sometimes described as puruṣaḥ . Puruṣaḥ means enjoyer, and prakṛti means enjoyed. So the prakṛti forgets her position, and artificially he wants to become puruṣaḥ. *So this puruṣaḥ, prakṛti 'stho . . . puruṣaḥ prakṛti 'stho bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān , so long he's in this material world, he has to associate with the modes of material nature, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān . And on account of the influence of the prakṛti-jān guṇa , he has to take different types of body. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti 'stho bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). This is the kāraṇa. He's associating with a particular type of the modes of prakṛti-jān guṇān—sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa —and on account of this he gets different types of body. You have to change your body. Dehāntaram. Tathā dehāntaram-prāptir (BG 2.13). But different grades of body is awarded by the laws of nature according to our karma, karmaṇā daiva netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). *So this is . . . our material position is that we are associating with different modes of material nature, and that is infection. If you become infected with some disease, germs, then you have to suffer from that disease. You cannot check it. Similarly, this infection will give us our next body. That we do not know. This is a rascal civilization. They're kept into the darkness, that how things are going on. Their so*-called education, universities . . . so whatever they are doing, they are all being defeated. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam (SB 5.5.5). Ātma-tattvam . Unless one is inquisitive to understand, "What I am?" whatever he is doing, he's being defeated. That's all. Parābhavaḥ. *So the human life is meant for understanding what is the position, "What I am?" This is the intelligence. When Sanātana Gosvāmī approached Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu he was minister, very big man, but he understood that "What I am doing is not to my interest, because I do not know what I am." He submitted to Caitanya Mahāprabhu that grāmya*-vyavahāre kahe paṇḍita satya kari māni (CC Madhya 20.100): that "In my relationship with my neighbors, they call 'paṇḍitjī' .'" He was brāhmaṇa . "So I accept it, 'Yes, I am paṇḍit .'" So what is the wrong? "The wrong is that I am such a paṇḍita that I do not know what I am." (laughs) So ask anybody. Our Dr. Sukla is also . . . (chuckles) So ask any doctor, "What you are?" "Huh? I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa ." This answer you'll get. "I'm American." Nobody will say ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Nobody will say. Nobody will say, because he does not know. So what is the value of this education if one does not know what he is? Therefore śāstra says parābhavaḥ . In ignorance, gross ignorance, anything we are doing, that is parābhava . So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to save the people from this defeating position. We are trying . . . so far I have tried single-handed. And now the . . . a little pressure is felt even by some American politicians. Recently one American politician has remarked that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is just like epidemic. (laughs) And if we do not take any step, then within ten years they'll take our government." So the Communists in India, they are trying to defeat us in so many ways. Surendra Kumar Saigal: We have seen the articles in Blitz. *Prabhupāda: Because they are also afraid. Because the Communist movement means godlessness. And our movement is, "Here is God." There is no blind faith. "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa! You take His name, you take His address—everything." Practical. So that is a great cause of fear for these Communists. So they are against us. So now I shall request the śreṣṭhas , those who are leading persons in India, they should join this movement, take it seriously. It is not a bogus movement. It is a scientific movement. And we have so many books. Now, at the present moment, we have got eighty*-four books. So that is my request, that people should come forward. (whispering in background) They should come forward and take seriously this movement. And we have got our places. In Bombay we have got big place. In Vṛndāvana we have got big place. In Nadia we have got big place. At least elderly gentlemen like you, now you should retire from family life and leave in charge of the grown-up boys. You should take seriously, for India's interest, for everyone's interest, but as we want . . . *We should not keep people in darkness. That is very risky. Very risky. But you may be very proud that, "I am this, I am that. I have to . . ." but you are after all under the control of the laws of nature. That you cannot avoid. You may be falsely proud, but you have to abide by it. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is not so easy. Actually, nature's law, you can eat once chatak . If you eat little more than that, then there is indigestion immediately—you have to go to the doctor. So what is your independence? You cannot violate a little portion of the laws of nature. So many. In every step. As soon as you violate, immediately there is punishment. And still, we are declaring independence. Asatyam. (aside) What is that? Where is Bhagavad*-gītā ? Find out. Jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad ahur anīśvaram. "There is no God." Why you say there is no . . .? You are under control. There is a controller—otherwise, how you are under control? So this foolishness must be stopped in order to make them happy, really happy. Otherwise, if they are kept into ignorance and things go on like this, then the future picture is very gloomy. It has already become gloomy, and future is very, very gloomy. So everyone should come forward, take this movement seriously, and at least, we are Indians, we should take care of Indians. We should not keep people in ignorance. That is not civilization. That is not civilization. Civilization means tamasi mā jyotir gama: come to the light. Don't keep yourself in darkness. That is not civilization. That . . . this civilization is keeping people in darkness. That is very risky. So we should take it very seriously and push this movement very scientifically, soberly, and people will be benefited. Any question? Indian man (son of Surendra Kumar): What are the . . . our Prime Minister's view regarding this movement? Prabhupāda: So far I know, she likes this movement. But she is also not independent. Son of Surendra Kumar: That's true. Nobody is independent. Even she. *Prabhupāda: Recently, one of my students met the Home Minister. He said: "Yes, this movement should be spread all over the world." They are appreciating. But there are different parties, different circumstances. Our four items—no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no gambling—so I think they are taking some steps on this ground. They are trying to stop cow-killing. *Indian man (2): Yes, they have already banned cow*-killing. Prabhupāda: And they are going to take steps for intoxication. Indian man (2): Stopping intoxication and actually, these are the things which can build up the character of the nation and . . . Prabhupāda: No!no! We are already intoxicated in material existence, and if more intoxication is there, then very . . . Indian man (2): Yes. From bad to worse. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this civilization, this education is simply misleading. Simply misleading. There is no enlightenment of this question, "What I am?" No. No answer. Surendra Kumar: Mahārāja, now we have present here some Life Members of ISKCON. Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) Life Members should be active Life Members. (laughter) Yes. Aur isme kuch sandeh hai toh puchiye. (And if there is any doubt about this then ask.) If there is any doubt. Surendra Kumar: Mahārāja, the one who brought ISKCON to this house is that boy, son of my . . . who became first Life Member of ISKCON. Prabhupāda: Oh, very intelligent. Indian man (2): Subodh. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: His name is Subodha and which means the understanding. Prabhupāda: Very intelligent. Subodha means . . . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Good Understanding. Prabhupāda: Just, just I was talking of abodh . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes. Indian man (2): Abodh . (laughter) Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes. So far you had been mentioning . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, abodha*-jāto . *Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes, abodha*-jāto and he is already subodha . Prabhupāda: He is subodha . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: He knows his . . . (indistinct) . . . evaṁ budhe paraṁ buddha . Surendra Kumar: You were suggesting to me that . . . Prabhupāda: Parābhavaḥ. One who is abodha , he is parābhava. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Parābhava , defeated. Prabhupāda: Defeat. And one is subodha , he is victory. So human life is meant for becoming subhodha , not abodha . But they are keeping abodha . This is the difficulty. Everyone is abodha . *Indian man (2): Mahārāja, I had a gentleman talking to me who is very intimate with Sanjay Gandhi. And he was telling me that Sanjay Gandhi very forcefully hinted, "Why are you people not working now? Why is the Arya*-samaj silent? Why the other powerful sects and movements are not working? Why have you taken this country into the hands of Muslims?" These were his words. "Why do you want that the country should depend, or the government should depend, on the support of Muslims? Where are you? What are you doing? Why don't you come up?" Indian man: But our government is supporting them all right, you see. Surendra Kumar: Swami Mahārāja said that they are forces which, when if you want to keep yourself in power, you have to sometimes bend and this . . . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: That's true. *Prabhupāda: Apart from government, the first thing is that the . . . sometimes we say "Rāma*-rājya." The Rāma-rājya means . . . there is a verse in Bhāgavatam that when Lord Rāmacandra took charge of the . . . after coming back from the forest, His brother Bhārata surrendered and He took charge of the kingdom. So the residents, the subjects, are described as a varṇāśrama guṇānvitā . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Varnāśrama gunan . . .? *Prabhupāda: Guṇānvitā. So Rāma*-rājya can be established. And it is said there that Lord Rāmacandra was maintaining the kingdom, taking the citizens as His own son. Pitṛvat rāma . It is said there. Pitṛvat . As the father of the family takes charge of the children very nicely, it is the government's duty to become the sensible father of the citizens. And the citizens should be qualified following the institution of varṇāśrama . Then there will be Rāma-rājya . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: That's the most scientific understanding . . . Surendra Kumar: No. Prabhupāda had rightly said in one of the meetings in Delhi that you people try to follow people who are in power. If Indira Gandhi were to do mālā just like this, I'm sure millions of people in India would be doing mālā like this. So she's doing that. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). Surendra Kumar: "But you will not follow me because I have no political power; therefore you have not . . ." Aise bhi mala japo, kyun apne idhar udhar ki baat sohte ho. Bhagvan ka naam lo wo nahi karega. Lekin Indraji karne lagenge Sanjay gandhi karne lage, toh sab log ke gale me mala daal ne lagenge aur wo karne lagenge. That is why we chant. Why you are thinking of talks of here and there. Take names of lord that you will not do. But if Indraji and Sanjay Gandhi will do then everybody will put flower garlands on their neck and then they will follow. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yatha Raja tatha praja . Surendra Kumar: He is my eldest grandson. Aur ye Sanadar me . . . (indistinct) (And in Sanadar he is . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: He is subhoda or abodha . (laughter) Surendra Kumar: No, he is Suvrata , Suvrata . Prabhupāda: Suvrata . . . Kya arth hota hai batao? (What is the meaning of Suvrata , tell me?) Surendra Kumar: Please describe God. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Do you know what is God? Do you know? Surendra Kumar: Do you know what is God or not? Suvrata: I want to know. Surendra Kumar: I want to know. Prabhupāda: Do you know the meaning of the God? Suvrata: No. Then how you are asking what is God? If I say something wrong, how you'll understand? If you do not know . . . suppose you go to purchase something, "Give me gold," and if he gives you iron, then what you'll do? If you do not know what is God, gold. You must know first of all what is God. Then you ask. If you do not know, then you'll be cheated. That is going on. That is going on. Surendra Kumar: Mahārāja, but there must be somebody to say that, "This is gold and this is iron." Prabhupāda: Yes, that means requires a superior education. Surendra Kumar: Superior education. Prabhupāda: Yes. The father, mother should be responsible . . . Surendra Kumar: So who can be a greater than your Divine Grace? *Prabhupāda: No, no. The father, father . . . the first thing is that why do you send your sons to the school? It is the duty that he should know. So if the father is a rascal, then how the son can be subodha ? (laughter) Therefore the śāstra says that unless you can train your son to overcome this process of birth, death, old . . . don't become a father. You remain a rascal. Don't beget children. This is contraception. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum (SB 5.5.18). The real problem is mṛtyu . But they have taken it that, "It is ordinary thing." But nobody wants to die. The education is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). But who knows that I do not die after the destruction of the body? Then why I am put into this position that I have to change this body, I have to die? This question does not arise. Therefore they're abodha . The instruction is, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). There is no inquiry that, "If I'm not born, why I am born in this body?" This is question. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . "If I am not subjected to death, then why I am dying?" This question does not arise at all. Therefore everyone is abodha-jāto . Nobody is subodha . Everyone is abodha . The problem is there, but he does not inquire. Indian lady (daughter of Surendra Kumar): Excuse me. Mahārāja, don't you think it's high time that some of our Indian philosophy or Indian religion, some classes should be started in schools like they used to have and missionaries used to have scripture classes in schools. There should be in all the schools, I mean, classes on our own religion instead of learning somebody else's. *Prabhupāda: It is not only . . . when we say that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā . . . (BG 2.13), so as this boy, he was a child, now he has become a boy, then after few years he'll become a young man, and then he'll become middle*-aged man, then he'll become old man—so this is not "Our religion," "Your religion." This is fact, scientific. When Bhagavad-gītā says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā , that is not meant for the so-called Hindus. It is meant for the Muslim, meant for the Christian, everyone. It is science. Religion is a kind of faith. That they describe. But religion is also not a blind faith. Religion means the order of God. That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Just like law means the order of the state. Similarly, religion means the order of God. So if you have no conception of God, if you do not know what is God, what is order, then where is religion? It is all bogus. Son of Surendra Kumar: What my sister was saying was that most of the parents do not understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. Son of Surendra Kumar: How they should bring up their progeny. Prabhupāda: Then at least they . . . Daughter of Surendra Kumar: Children should have . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: At least, the children should be . . . therefore I'm starting that gurukula in Vṛndāvana. So you come, you manage that, take the ideas, make your children . . . whatever mistake is done is done. Now why the mistake should continue? Rectify it. Indian man: Swamiji isme ek fark ye padta hai nah, agar hum apne aap karte hai toh secularism mai nahi aata hai. (Swamiji, the difference it makes is that if we do that, then it doesn't come under secularism.) Prabhupāda: Then kick out secularism. Kick out secularism. Indian man: Wo scientific nahi hai. (It is not scientific.) Prabhupāda: Science. It is science. Indian man: Science is nothing. What is God, what is nature, what is soul. Son of Surendra Kumar: You don't give it the name of one particular way. You simply deal it with the basic idea of transforming the human . . . *Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. When a child becomes a boy, there is no question of secularism. It is science. It is fact. Can you by secularism stop a child growing to become a boy? When I was explaining in South Africa, this thing, one Arya*-samaji friend, he criticized me, that "Why you are bringing Hindu ideas?" So I said: "Is it Hindu ideas? A child grows to become a boy. It is Hindu idea? Why you are so fool you're calling Hindu idea?" A child grows to become a boy. This is science. Son of Surendra Kumar: The law of nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). Naturally . . . *Prabhupāda: But because it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , they take it Hindu idea. This is nonsense. Indian man: Our approach is so wrong that people take it as . . . Prabhupāda: Immediately we can pass in a sectarian . . . Daughter of Surendra Kumar: That is why it is necessary to have this as a part of social studies like you have other subjects in schools. If it is not given any more . . . *Prabhupāda: But then, as soon as you say " Bhagavad*-gītā ," immediately, "Hindu." Son of Surendra Kumar: What sister wants to know is that how can we add in innumerable, rather, uncountless schools and colleges? The management will be most willing, I mean, the progressive management will be most willing to introduce classes where such laws of nature and such . . . on scientific line, without giving it a Hindu or religious name. That should be taught. A curriculum should be drawn up. Because we control some of the schools. Prabhupāda: That is my program. I am writing all book just only on this point, therefore they are coming. Otherwise, what is the use? They were Christians and Jews. What is the use of becoming Hindus? Son of Surendra Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So anyone wants to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they can understand easily if he joins, Hare Kṛṣṇa, chant. That is all right. If he wants to understand scientifically, there are eighty*-four books. Come on. Which way you want? Son of Surendra Kumar: No. What we want is a very simple curriculum. Elementary type. Prabhupāda: Simple, this is simple curriculum. Son of Surendra Kumar: So that they gradually, as a child grows into adolescence, when his intelligence also grows, his knowledge also grows. And then we give him still more deeper knowledge of the various things which we have been teaching on elementary basis. And then still deeper. Just like this. Prabhupāda: Just like this child, this boy, inquired, "What is God?" So he can be instructed that, "God is the supreme controller, just like your father is your controller." He'll accept this. Can you go against your father's will? He says no. He'll say, naturally. Son of Surendra Kumar: Sun rahe tum? (Are you listening?) . . . how he's spreading it. Prabhupāda: So, he'll understand English? He's angrej? (laughter) He looks like angrej. Son of Surendra Kumar: Maharaj hindi bhi bahut achi samjhta hai. (Mahārāja, he also understands Hindi very well.) Prabhupāda: Very good. Son of Surendra Kumar: Mahabharata, Ramayana sab padliya isne. (He reads *Mahābhārata* , *Rāmāyaṇa* etc.) Prabhupāda: Just like at home you are controlled by your parents. Is it not? You like to obey them? Son of Surendra Kumar: (to Suvrata) You like to obey them, or sometimes you don't want to obey them? *Prabhupāda: Similarly, you take the whole world as a big family. So there must be somebody father and controller. Otherwise, how it is being conducted? That is God, the supreme controller. Just like in your family the father is the controller, similarly, you take it in wide scale, broader scale, there must be somebody father. Therefore the Christians, they take it, "O Father, give us our daily bread." And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is also confirmed, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā . (break) Then he decided, "Yes, I shall fight." Kṛṣṇa inquired from him, "Now I have instructed you. Now, whatever you like you can do. And what is your decision?" Then he clearly said, "Yes, my decision is there. I'll fight." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). "As You advise, I understand that You want this fighting." So Vaiṣṇava means for the sake of Kṛṣṇa he can do anything. Not that he is lazy fellow, showing, "I have become very big Vaiṣṇava. Let me sleep under the name of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava must be very busy, always awaiting the order of the . . . ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). "What is Kṛṣṇa's order? What does He want?" and He is ready. Just like a servant is always ready to receive the order of the master. That is faithful servant. That is real servant and not that at night duty he is sleeping somewhere. No. That is not faithful servant. Faithful servant means always alert. And that is bhakti . Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam bhaktir uttama (CC Madhya 19.167). Simply one has to execute ānukūlyena , how Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. This is bhakti . *So the Hanumān is example. Hanumān was ordered to bring some medicine from some mountain. And he was a monkey, he was animal, he did not know how to pick up it—"Take the whole mountain. Execute the order. And then Rāmacandra and Lakṣmana, They'll find out what is that medicine." So this is Vaiṣṇava. In one's own capacity he should give the best service to the Lord and that is bhakti. Bhakti is not laziness. If somebody thinks that, "The bhaktas are lazy fellows, and they are out of the worldly activity," that is mistake. It is mistake. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam . Kṛṣṇa says personally, yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat tapasyasi yat kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27): "Come on! Do it for Me." That is bhakti . He does not say that "You become a lazy fellow. Give up your occupational duty and sleep and snore, and become a great devotee." No. He never says. He says that "You are attached to this kind of work. All right, do it, but the result you give Me," that is bhakti . "Arjuna, you are a military man. All right, I ask you to fight. You become a fighter and become My devotee." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me (BG 4.3). Just see. What is that? He was not chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa says, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: "You are very dear friend and My devotee." Did he go on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra . . . so not that imitation. Of course, ultimate is always be absorbed in glorifying the Lord. But not in the beginning. In the beginning you must work very hard; you come to the stage of pure devotional platform. Then you can fully engage yourself meditation or chanting. Not in the beginning. In the beginning you should be very expert and active. That is wanted. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . udilo , from the early in the morning, active. "Come on, chant. Come with Me so that others will see. If we make a party chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, so in the beginning they may be disturbed because they have been accustomed to sleep up to nine o'clock, but as they will hear, gradually they'll become purified. They'll receive it." *So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He practically did it, and He asked everyone to do it. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "This is My order." He could remain a big devotee at His home. He was very popular in Navadvīpa, even when He was twenty years old. But still, He took sannyāsa and went door to door, village to village, town to town in India, and He left His order, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma: "All over the world, as many towns and villages are there, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be . . ." (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). Not that "We are big, big gosvāmīs and bābājīs . We do not go out of Vṛndāvana." They say that "We do not go out of . . ." You are imitating them. (chuckles) Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma . And they have become very big Vaiṣṇava: "No, I don't go beyond the limits of Vṛndāvana." What is this nonsense? Did Caitanya Mahāprabhu say like that, that "You do not go beyond the limits . . ."? A devotee, wherever he is, that is Vṛndāvana. That is Vṛndāvana. Tīrtha-kurvanti tīrthāni (SB 1.13.10). A devotee, a pure devotee, can make any hell a tīrtha, a holy place. That is devotee. Tīrthī-kurvanti tīrthāni . That was Bhagīratha. Gaṅgā was hesitating, mother Gaṅgā, that "I shall go to the material world. People will take . . . all sinful men will take bathing, and I'll be overloaded with sin. Then how I shall get out of this sinful, accumulation of sins?" So the Bhagīratha said, "My mother, don't hesitate. When a holy man will take bath in your water, then all the sins he will assimilate." Then she agreed, "Yes. That's all right" So if we become holy man, actually, then immune. There is no difference. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. These are bogus that, "I do not go out of Vṛndāvana." They are making Vṛndāvana limited. Vṛndāvana is not limited. Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, wherever there is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple, that is Vṛndāvana. That is Vṛndāvana. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He, once only, He went to Vṛndāvana. Does it mean He was not in Vṛndāvana? So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that preaching must go on in hell and heaven. We should be very much expert and follow the instruction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the simple instructions. Mukunda mādhava yādava hari bolena bolo re vadana bori . Simply chant the holy names of Lord, mukunda mādhava yādava . This is Caitanya . . . rise early in the morning. You go preach, and work hard, day and night, and that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . this song indicates. That's all. Thank you. Devotees: Jaya . (offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ye jagah toh bahut hai, idhar ek mandir banayenge. (This place is very big. Here we will make a temple.) Surendra Kumar: Abhi toh urban ceiling act me, wo isme se zameen lena chahte hai. (Now in the urban ceiling act, they want to take a piece of land from this) Prabhupāda: Toh hum log ko de dijiye, mandir banalenge. Bahut aadmi de raha hai, bahut aadmi. (Then you give it to us and we will construct a temple. Many people are giving. Many people . . .) They are offering their . . . we have received one letter, telegram, from one gentleman. What is his name? Patel? Bhogilal Patel. He's very rich man. So I was sometimes guest in his house. He is very friendly. He comes to see me in Bombay. Old man. He is older than me, one or two years. But he has sent me one telegram, "Swāmījī, take this land, one hundred acres of land in Ahmedabad." Surendra Kumar: In . . .? Prabhupāda: Ahmedabad. Surendra Kumar: Ahmedabad. Prabhupāda: Yes. So . . . there are so many. One gentleman has offered land in Mahabaleshwar. Surendra Kumar: Mahabaleshwar. Prabhupāda: This is very costly place. Surendra Kumar: Very costly place and very nice place. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Very nice. And wherefrom other offers we have got? Haṁsadūta: Hyderabad we have. Prabhupāda: Hyderabad he has already . . . that is six hundred acres of land. What is the name of that place? Do you remember? Haṁsadūta: Where? Hyderabad? No. We called it New Naimiṣāraṇya. Prabhupāda: No, we have named New Naimiṣāraṇya. A very nice place. *Surendra Kumar: You'll get a lot of offers. And as you rightly said that these Vaiṣṇavas, they want to become maṭha*-deśas , they want to become like kings. They don't want to leave their empire and go out, working hard like you and spreading the message of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our mission. Surendra Kumar: That is the right attitude. Even if there is one bhakta , there is Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakta will create Vṛndāvana. Kṛṣṇa says, nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭha (Padma Purāṇa): "I do not stay in Vaikuṇṭha." Nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭhe yogināṁ hṛdayeṣu . "Neither I stay at the heart, core of the heart of the yogīs." Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad*-bhaktāḥ. "When My pure devotee chants the glories of My . . . I immediately stay there. I immediately stay." It's not that He is packed up in some place. He's all-pervading. Vasudeva. Vāsudeva. Therefore His name is Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). He's everywhere. Electricity is everywhere. Only one who knows how to take the electricity . . . so Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching and teaching, they're perfect. You have to follow. Then our life will be successful. Don't manufacture ideas. That is not wanted. Ye log manufacture kiya, ye hindu samdra ka par jaane se hi ekdum . . . (indistinct) hai na? And these people manufactured that this hindu as he crossed the ocean has become fallen. Isn't it? *Surendra Kumar: (indistinct) . . . Has fallen. Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). Bas toh samudra paar kaise nahi hoga? Ye sab chal raha hai. (But then how this ocean will not be crossed. These things are going on.) Foolish theories. Just see. As soon as you cross over the Bay of Bengal or Indian Ocean, you'll become immediately fallen. Surendra Kumar: You become an outcaste. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That's all. Our Madan Mohan Malaviya, he was invited Round Table conference. He took so much Ganges earth. He was mixing that Ganges earth with water. He's going for political purposes, and showing a . . . what is called? Hobby. This is not that. Now this movement is there, and unless we do it very sincerely and vigorously, it cannot be pushed on. Dekhiye na, Vrindaban me jitna goswami hai. (Now see in Vṛndāvana there are many goswamis .) Surendra Kumar: Ji. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Wo sab combine ho karke. bhi, ye humara koi pride ka baat nahi. Jo kaam humne kiya hai, wo nahi kar sakte. (Even if they combine. This is nothing related to my pride. But whatever work i have done they cannot do.) Surendra Kumar: Nahi kar sakte. Maharaaj, kitne honge apne ab ye disciples antardeshiye. (They cannot do. Mahārāja! How many disciples might be there all over the world.) Prabhupāda: Initiated hoga toh koi 10,000. Dekhiye is tarah se hai sab. (If initiated then 10,000. See this is like this . . .) Surendra Kumar: Initiated dus hazaar. (Initiated 10,000.) Prabhupāda: Aur ye sab followers log hai. Jo kitaab par rahe hai, ye jo daily 5 lakhs 6 lakhs jo kitaab beek raha hai, koi padta hai nahi koi . . . (indistinct) . . . Padta hai hum ko malum hai. (And like this there are many followers. Some are reading books daily five lakhs , six lakhs Books are selling somebody studies or comes and reads on street. I know that they study.) Surendra Kumar: Life member kitne hai humare? (There are how many Life Members.) Prabhupāda: Life members toh hum idhar hi kiya tha. (Life Member cultivation I have done here.) Surendra Kumar: Udhar nahi kiye? (There you haven't done.) Prabhupāda: No . . . Life Member. We have Life Member? Dhanañjaya: In London. London's about fifteen hundred. Haṁsadūta: Where? In London, Amsterdam and Montreal. We're making Life Members everywhere now. Dhanañjaya: Africa. Indian man: How many Life Members in India? Must have at least ten thousand. Prabhupāda: No. Indian man: Target must be 10,000. Prabhupāda: No. Indian, everyone should become a Life Member. Surendra Kumar: Certainly. Everybody like us are there with devotees. Prabhupāda: And it is India's duty that everyone should take up such a cultural movement. That is India's glory. I have given one statement, I do not know whether it is published. The, some of the places, they are against me. So where is that copy? Have you got that copy? Haṁsadūta: I don't know which . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. I've given one statement . . . Surendra Kumar: Mahārāja, have you sent that reply to that questionnaire which was sent to you from Bhavan's Journal? Bhavan's Journal sent you a questionnaire. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I have sent that answer. Eighty-four pages. For twenty*-one questions I have answered eighty-four pages. Surendra Kumar: I think in Delhi you must call a press conference. Prabhupāda: Aadmi itna dull hogaya, ye sab baat samajhta hi nahi. Samajhta hai, still leta nahi. (People have become so dull that they do not understand these talks. They understand still . . .) Surendra Kumar: Samajhta hai, lekin political jab tak ke yo usko politically ve kar leta, usko samjhne ki koshis nahi karta. (They understand but until and unless the politician accept, they don't want to understand.) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . by seeing him, if we remember Kṛṣṇa, he is Vaiṣṇava. He never said that you must be born in a brāhmaṇa family or . . . no. If by seeing him only one remembers Kṛṣṇa, then that person is Vaiṣṇava. Dhanañjaya: So couldn't that point be expressed to the government, somehow? Prabhupāda: Well, emergency government. (laughs) They can do anything immediately. Surendra Kumar: Sir, these nationalities, I mean . . . (break) (end) *(reporters from the English*-language Times of India, the Press Trust of India, UNI, the Punjabi Akali Patarika and Ajit, and the Hindi and Urdu Hind Samachar) Interviewer: No, I've seen this. It is in the library. No, but still I . . . (indistinct) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Five hundred libraries in India have ordered these books in the last four months. Interviewer: Must have. These are very good quality book, it is. Very good quality. Prabhupāda: Give this one book from the . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I brought it back. (break) Prabhupāda: India's culture and knowledge are richer than any other culture. And that is being accepted. Yes. Real knowledge, real culture is in India. Unfortunately, we did not try in that way. We simply went to the foreign countries to beg, "Give us wheat, give us this, give us this, give us that." But if we give our culture, they will accept that India is still richer than any other. (aside) You can bring some of the press items, professor, learned scholars' opinions. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Aiye . (pause) *Prabhupāda: Where is Caitya*-guru? Haṁsadūta: He's out. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Opinions of the big scholars. Interviewer: I would request you to wait for five minutes, because some other journalists are coming. They are . . . Interviewer (2): Here is some material written about . . . Interviewer: Oh, really? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The electricity is off at the moment, so we . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purely a spiritual movement. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult to understand the activities of this movement. There are two things: material and spiritual. That is the beginning of instruction of the Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa begins with this statement: that this body is not the person; the soul is the person. Asmin dehe . Within this body there is the soul. And He has explained in different ways that this body is antavanta ime dehā ( BG 2.18). This body is perishable, but the soul is not perishable. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), that even after the destruction of the body the soul is not destroyed. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit . The soul never takes birth, never dies. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). There are so many things explained, what is the soul. So without the soul, this body is useless. That everyone can understand. Therefore the importance should be given to the soul, not to the body. Kṛṣṇa says that anyone who is paṇḍita , in knowledge, he does not give any importance to the body, either living or dead. *So the India's particular culture is how to elevate the soul to the highest platform of perfection. That is India's culture. The whole Vedic literature is meant for that, and Bhagavad*-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literature. And the purpose is that soul is now entrapped within this material world, and the human life is the opportunity for getting oneself out of this entrapment of material existence. So if we do not take care of this important business of human life—as it is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra , athāto brahma jijñāsā . . . this life is meant for understanding about the Brahman, or the spirit soul. And there are two kinds of spirit soul. One is called the Supersoul, and the other is called the individual soul. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā : kṣetra-kṣetrajñā , this chapter. Kṣetra means this body, and kṣetrajñā means one who knows about the body. You know about your body, not fully, but at least partially. Every one of us, we know, "This is my body. I am . . . I got this body from such father and mother. I belong . . . this body belongs to such and such country," and so on. This is one knowledge. *So another soul is there. That is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. He says that kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). That is Supersoul. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is everywhere within this universe, even within the atom. That is Supersoul. That Supersoul is . . . the distinction between soul and the Supersoul is this, that we are individual soul. I know about the pains and pleasure of my body, you know the pains and pleasure of your body. But I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body, you do not know the pains or pleasure of my body. The Supersoul, He knows the pains and pleasure of all bodies. That is the distinction. Ātmā , Paramātmā . So these things can be understood in the human form of life. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand. If we want to educate the cats and dogs that "My dear dog, you are not this body. You are different from this body. You are spirit soul, Brahman," he has no capacity to understand. And a human being, however fallen he may be, if he is educated, he can understand about the position of spirit soul and how to become free from this material bondage. *So in India we have got immense Vedic literature for understanding this business of the soul. And in human form of body, if we do not take care of the spiritual portion of our life, then we are making suicide. That is the proposal of all great personalities born in India, ācāryas like . . . recent . . . Formerly, there were big, big ācāryas like Vyāsadeva and others, Devala. Many, many ācāryas . And the recent, within, say, one thousand five hundred years, there are . . . there were many ācāryas like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, and within five hundred years Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They have also given us many literatures about this spiritual knowledge. But at the present moment this spiritual knowledge is neglected. So it is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message to the whole world that every one of you, you become guru , a spiritual master. So how everyone can become a spiritual master? To become a spiritual master is not easy job. One must be very learned scholar and must have full realization of the self and everything. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us a little formula, that if you strictly follow the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā , and if you preach the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā , then you become guru . The exact words used in Bengali, it is said, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). To become guru is very difficult job, but if you simply carry the message of Bhagavad-gītā and try to convince anyone you meet, then you become a guru . *So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for this purpose. We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, without any man interpretation. If we interpret Bhagavad-gītā in our own way, that is not very good. If you have got a different opinion, you can preach your philosophy. Everyone is free. But one should not take Bhagavad-gītā and through Bhagavad-gītā one will try to preach his own philosophy. That is very bad. You should not do that. Then the authority of Bhagavad-gītā is lost. If everyone can interpret in his own way, then where is the authority of the Bhagavad-gītā ? Just like in the Vedas . . . we take Vedas as the authority. But if you interpret in your own way and squeeze out some meaning in your own way, then where is authority of the Vedas ? So our special stress on this point is that don't squeeze out some meaning of Bhagavad-gītā for your own convenience. Present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people will be benefited. And that is being practically seen. We are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You have seen our book? Interviewer: When can we put questions? Devotee: After. *Prabhupāda: Yes, let me finish, that . . . we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and it is being accepted all over the world. People are very much, those who are scholars, they say that even Radhakrishnan and Aurobindo, they presented Bhagavad-gītā , making some compromise with the Western ideas. But here is presentation of Bhagavad-gītā in India's original, traditional way. So they welcome it. And this is our, I mean to say, object also, that we cannot allow Bhagavad-gītā to be understood by anyone's imagination. No. That is not possible. And that is not allowed in the Bhagavad-gītā by the author. Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter that as soon as the paramparā system of understanding is lost, then the whole thing is lost. In the Fourth Chapter it is said. (aside) Find out Fourth Chapter. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there another Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: Why don't you bring another copy? Hari-śauri: Pradyumna might have one. Interviewer: Here is one. *Prabhupāda: Fourth Chapter, you find, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Kṛṣṇa says that this Bhagavad-gītā knowledge was first of all given to . . . Fourth Chapter. Yes. *"Now, this paramparā system being lost, I am again reviving the Bhagavad*-gītā again to you, Arjuna." That means the author says if one does not understand Bhagavad-gītā through the paramparā system, then the whole thing is lost. So you cannot interpret Bhagavad-gītā in your own way. Then the authority and the purport of Bhagavad-gītā is lost. So we are trying to revive this paramparā system, and fortunately we have sold millions copies of this edition of Bhagavad-gītā . We are printing five hundred thousand, three hundred thousand, like that, and all over the world. There are many Bhagavad-gītās . There are about six hundred and forty different editions. But still our, this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, it is being accepted very widely, and therefore we are very much hopeful. *And as practical example you can see so many European, American, they have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness very seriously. And before this movement, many svāmīs , yogīs and scholars went to the foreign countries, but not a single person became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. Not a single person. But now, because Bhagavad*-gītā is being presented as it is, so many thousands, they are becoming devotees of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So this movement has practical effect, and both in the scholarly and people in general circle. And as advised by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, India should take this movement very seriously and send many trained teachers so that India's glories will be enhanced. People will take it very seriously. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You can ask your questions now. Interviewer: Sir, who initiated you into this movement? Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja. (aside) You show my Guru Mahārāja's picture here. Here is a picture. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here, here. Haṁsadūta has it right here. Prabhupāda: He asked me to do this. Haṁsadūta: Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda. Interviewer: Has he a seat here in India? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Founder of the Gauḍīya Math. *Prabhupāda: He is the founder of Gauḍīya Math. He advised me to take up this movement when I was twenty*-five years old, young man. But at that time I thought that "I am a married man, let me wait." So waiting, waiting. When I retired at the . . . I was born in 1896. So I retired in 1954. That means I retired at the age of fifty-eight years? At fifty-eight years. Then I remained as a vānaprastha in Vṛndāvana up to seventieth year of my age. Then I thought that "Guru Mahārāja asked me to do this at the age of . . . when I was twenty-five years old. I could not do it. So let me try." So by his grace and Kṛṣṇa's grace, it became little successful. That's all. In 1965 I went to New York without any help. But gradually, in 1966, I registered this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in New York. And then gradually, it spread whole America, Europe, Australia, Canada. Like that. Interviewer: What is the reason of the success of your mission in the foreign countries? Haṁsadūta: "What is the reason of your success in foreign countries?" Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very intelligent question. We are after material civilization, and they are fed up with material civilization. That is the position. We are now trying to imitate them, a skyscraper building, but they are disgusted with such skyscraper building. These boys, they are coming from very respectable family, rich family, and especially in America there is no question of poor man. There is no question of poor man. But still, they do not like the materialistic way of life of their father and grandfathers. Interviewer: But does that not mean because they are rich, they can afford religion? Prabhupāda: No, no. That is the . . . because you are . . . we have already explained. You are a spiritual being. You cannot be satisfied with material atmosphere in any stage. Just like a fish is an animal of the water. If you bring the fish from water and keep on the land very comfortably, it cannot be comfortable. It is impossible. Similarly, we are all spiritual being. Any amount of material comforts will never satisfy us, unless we come to the spiritual platform. That is the demand. So now they have satisfied their material demands, but the urge is there, "I want something more, to be happy." And that is spiritual. Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples, or do your other disciples also do that? Prabhupāda: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) . . . knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing. So our this movement is successful . . . on account of this movement . . . (faulty recording) (break) . . . because learned scholars and those who are inquisitive, advanced, they are seeing, "Yes, here is . . ." (break) Interviewer: . . . success abroad? Prabhupāda: Who has abroad success? Name them. (break) So it is not . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody knows of this. Interviewer: Maharishi . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Well, Maharishi does not say . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) He says that this is material. If you perform this meditation, Transcendental Meditation, you will be materially benefited. That is not spiritual meditation. Interviewer: (indistinct) . . . you have said that India should take this movement seriously. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: How do you want India to take this movement? *Prabhupāda: Seriously means that a spiritual movement is India's spiritual movement. So if some of our leading men take seriously, then whatever I am doing single*-handed . . . I don't get any support, either from the Indian public or from the government. But if they take it seriously, then we can present in more organized way, and it will be more successful. So far it is done single-handed. Interviewer: Do you think there is a necessity to open a ministry of religion? Prabhupāda: I think so. Because there is a cultural department in the central government, (chuckles) but they do not know what is culture. Just see. Interviewer: What is the difference between God consciousness and Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: There is no difference. The same thing. Kṛṣṇa is God. (break) Interviewer: What is, sir, the number of your disciples round the world? Prabhupāda: Dedicated life—not less than ten thousand. And admirers, there are many millions. Recently one American politician has remarked in Houston that "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is spreading like epidemic. So unless we take some steps, it may take our government." (laughter) Interviewer: Who was the man who said it? Prabhupāda: Just say. Hari-śauri: A government official in Houston. Prabhupāda: No, no, what is his name? You can give. Hari-śauri: His name was not given. Prabhupāda: Oh. Simply it is said a government official. Interviewer: He said on the floor of the House or outside? Hari-śauri: Said it on the TV. Haṁsadūta: Houston. Houston, Texas. (everyone talking at once) Interviewer: Are you getting any opposition from the Church? Prabhupāda: No. That is very favorable. Interviewer: No opposition. Prabhupāda: No. Otherwise, it was impossible. At least in America they have never prevented me. But in Europe, especially in England and Germany, they, the Christian group, they are little angry with me. But so far America, they are very liberal. They never put any impediments in my movement. Rather, government appreciates. The appreciated one point, that the American younger generation, they have become addicted to this LSD, intoxication, and they have spent millions of dollars to stop this, but they could not. But they are surprised that as soon as this LSD man becomes my disciple, he gives up immediately. Interviewer: Sir, apart from Catholicity of the American Church, what can be the other reasons of their indifference towards your positive ideas? Prabhupāda: Not indifference. They are . . . you see, there is a remark of a politician. There is no indifference. They are appreciating that it is spreading like epidemic. There is no question of indifference. But the leaders, they appreciate. Some of the fathers of my disciples, they come to offer their thanks, "Swāmījī, it is a great fortune for us that you have come to our country." They say like that. They appreciate that their sons were going to be hippies. Now they are devotees, God conscious. So any sane man will never object to this. The priests also, they say that "These boys are our boys," in Boston, one priest said, "and they never cared to come to the church or inquire about God. And now these boys are mad after God." Not only that, practically, in many places we have purchased churches and converted into temples. So we see these churches were sold because nobody was coming. But since this movement is there, the same church is there and the same persons are there—you will find always it is crowded. This is practical. I have not imported men from India to fill up the temples. Their men and their church, but the philosophy is different, it is filled up. Interviewer: Can you give us the number how many temples are there in foreign countries? Prabhupāda: I have established 102 temples. Small and big. Out of them, very big temples are in Los Angeles, in London, in Hawaii, Honolulu, in Detroit . . . and . . . Haṁsadūta: New York, Chicago. Prabhupāda: New York, Chicago. Hari-śauri: Toronto. *Prabhupāda: Toronto, Montreal, Paris, so many. Very, very big temples. The cost is sometimes fifty lakhs , fifty*-five lakhs each temple. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New York is more than a million dollars, New York temple. Interviewer: Do you have any proposal to spread this movement in Communist countries? Prabhupāda: Yes, we have already gone. I have been in Moscow. This, my secretary, he has brought some order from them. They are also appreciating. Interviewer: Now two priests of your temple in America have been arrested on certain charges as we read from the newspaper . . . *Prabhupāda: Well, the charges will be there. Gandhi was also charged and was arrested. And that you cannot stop. That will go on in any movement. That is not any fault. Because the counter*-charges are already there, everywhere. What is the American charges? I do not know. What is that? Interviewer: That you have took money from . . . extortion of money from the devotees. Asking their parents to pay, or some such thing. Prabhupāda: Parents to pay. This is a farce. Interviewer: As a donation or contribution. Prabhupāda: So we can ask donation from anyone. What is the fault there? Is it extortion? What is that extortion? Suppose if I ask for donation . . . Interviewer: No, they equate that this donation was extortion. Prabhupāda: No, no, extortion, what do you mean by extortion? If I ask you donation and if you pay, does it mean it is extortion? Interviewer: They say those two people were kept in custody before . . . *Prabhupāda: That is false accusation. There was no such charge. Besides that, we do not have many contribution. We have got contribution, big lump sum money . . . one of my disciples is the great*-grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. So he has given a big contribution, and he's always prepared to spend for me. He has got enough money. Another boy, George Harrison, Beatle, he has given us the London temple. It is worth about fifty-five, sixty lakhs worth. So we don't get any money, but they have given us many buildings. And our main source of income is the selling of these books. We are selling books daily all over the world, five to six lakhs rupees. Interviewer: Five to six lakhs . . . Prabhupāda: Rupees. Per day. Interviewer: Per day! Prabhupāda: And by this collection, from this collection, we are bringing money in India. We are bringing money in India not less than ten lakhs of rupees per month. Our buildings and temples are going on in Bombay, in Vṛndāvana, in Navadvīpa. So we have got at least ten lakhs of rupees' expenditure for these temples, and that I am bringing from foreign countries. So if by laboring hard at night in this Dictaphone I write books, and I sell them in the foreign countries and I bring the money here for spending in India, do you think it is faulty? Interviewer: One American professor who is a teacher of Hinduism there, in some of the universities you mentioned, she said, I asked him a question about ISKCON, and she said, "Well this thing is creating a bad impression in the sense that people are accosted everywhere—in the streets, on the airport, at the bus stand. They accost you and force you to buy their literature, to buy their books. And this is creating a revulsion." Prabhupāda: So why you are forced? Suppose as preaching work . . . in our childhood we saw the Christian preachers were also standing on the road. So if we stand on the road and preach and sell our books, what is the fault? Interviewer: I put that. He said you are doing what the Christian . . . (break) Prabhupāda: No. What is the problem? (break) No. The government allowed them, the Christian people. The government is allowing us also. Then where is the fault? Interviewer: The fault is . . . Prabhupāda: That is your imagination, fault. Interviewer: It's not a legal fault. Prabhupāda: Well, that's all right. We are preacher, we must preach in every way. We shall go everyone, that "Here is Kṛṣṇa consciousness literature. Kindly take it." That is our business. The government does not object to this. There are many cases in the court, and the court allowed, "Yes. They should sell." We have got some . . . (break) (faulty recording—not possible to properly hear; Prabhupada is arguing that as salesmen, if we canvass and people buy, there is nothing wrong in that) *Hari-śauri: (indistinct) . . . we distribute every week 22,000 books like this, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , 16,000 medium books . . . (indistinct) . . . magazines. So how is it possible we are forcing? About 150,000 people every week to take our books. *Prabhupāda: Not only that. Where is that letter? Standard Literature? Here, there is one English company, Standard Literature Company. They are proposing that "We shall purchase every quarterly 200 sets of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Let us settle terms." Do you mean to say it is extortion? And the professors are giving their opinion by extortion? It is appreciation. Unfortunately, you don't appreciate. Interviewer: But what is the reason your . . . Prabhupāda: Because there is substance. There is spiritual substance. They are appreciating. Interviewer: What is your analysis for why it is not being . . . (inaudible recording) *Prabhupāda: Because you have rejected. You have rejected. Your policy is now American, technology. You have given up spiritual (inaudible recording). Therefore in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, find out this verse, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām samādhau na vidhīyate (BG 2.44). Vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ . Those who are . . . whose attention is drawn to the material comforts, they cannot take an interest in spiritual life. (inaudible recording) Our attention is diverted how to improve materially. Therefore we are disinterested. But they have seen much about material advancement, they are not happy. Material advancement means generally, as we understand from the literature, viśayinaṁ saṅdarśanam atha yoṣitaṁ ca (CC Madhya 11.8). Material comfort means woman and money. So they have tasted all this woman and money enough. Woman, money are available very easily. But they are not interested. Interviewer: Sir, do you think it is necessary for India to eschew religion? *Prabhupāda: It is not religion. I have already explained. Did you not mark that this is spiritual knowledge? You are combination of spirit and matter. The spirit I have already explained. And if you don't take care of the spirit portion, then you are making suicide. You are losing the opportunity of your human life. It is essential. One should be cognizant of the spiritual necessity of life. Otherwise, you are losing the opportunity of this human form of life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Then you remain as cats and dogs, and there is risk, very risky life. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). You do not know what kind of body you are going to get next life. It is essential. You must be prepared . . . (break) . . . body, but you do not know what kind of body you are going to accept. That knowledge is lacking. Interviewer: One question. You have priced these books very high comparatively for the poorer countries. Do you have any plans to reduce . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "You have priced these books very high for poor countries." Haṁsadūta: We're printing locally now. The same books, but local printing so that they can be afforded by the public. Prabhupāda: Yes. When we print locally it will be sold at half price. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This Bhagavad*-gītā , for example, it's going to be sold to the masses at fifteen rupees in about three weeks. We are printing the Indian edition with 48 color plates. The government of India is giving us concessional paper for printing. They are very pleased with our . . . we're getting lot of concessional paper, so we are expanding the printing. Interviewer: What is the price of this edition? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is, in America, it's seven dollars, seven dollars ninety*-five cents. Prabhupāda: And what the Home Member has said? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Home Minister? The Home Minister recently said that he wants this movement to be spread all over the world. One of the prominent people said he wants this movement to be spread all over the world. Interviewer: Now, sir, from your lips, how to attain this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and to maintain it? Prabhupāda: Once you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will maintain. You won't have to . . . Interviewer: No, from your own, direct from your lips, how to . . . *Prabhupāda: No, this direction is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that . . . (aside) Find out this verse, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is very simple thing. Find out this verse. (Indian guest is entering or leaving and Prabhupāda requests in Hindi for him to take prasādam ) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me. Offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." Interviewer: Which chapter? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's Chapter Nine, verse 34. *Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty? If you think of Kṛṣṇa, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto , is there any difficulty? There is no difficulty. Interviewer: I think his problem is, it is my problem as well. You see, the spiritual consciousness does not stay at the same level. Sometimes you are well absorbed. At other times you do all the arja , the arja , the bhakti . It's not a constant factor. Prabhupāda: No, you have to keep it constantly. Interviewer: How to do it? That is the problem. Prabhupāda: That we have see. If you come to our center, live with us, you'll see how we are doing it. You are welcome. You can live with us any time or any period of time. You'll see how we are doing that. Interviewer: Thank you, but you know I have been living here quite often, but . . . Prabhupāda: We have our centers. We have got big centers in Bombay, in Navadvīpa, in Vṛndāvana. We have got very comfortable guesthouse. So you can come and live with us and see practically. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If you all don't mind, just for five minutes, we would like to read the selected extracts from some leading scholars about this movement. We're not reading the views of Western scholars. These books are being used in five thousand universities, including Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, but some of the leading Indian scholars, so you also get an understanding of the Indian appreciation of Prabhupāda's activities. This, for example, is a letter from Mr. Ghosh, District and Summon Judge in West Bengal: "I'm highly impressed at the sincerity and devotion of the disciples of the International Society of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. A visit to the Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir, West Bengal, sublimes the mind from all harsh talk and disturbing influences." Then . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Stop now. Don't divert attention. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a letter from Śrī Ambarish Sarkar, General Secretary of the Nadia District Congress Committee. "I have had an opportunity to visit the Śrī Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir on the 12th August, 1975. It is absolutely a religious institution. Jayapātāka Swami has devoted all of his efforts and endeavors to organize and propound the sacred name of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. I'm impressed by his charming manner and strength. Although it is a religious institution, this organization has performed many social services. Many poor and destitute families have had an opportunity to work, and at the same time they have become worshipers of Lord Śrī Caitanya. To engage these workers, so many industrial centers have already been started, such as handloom cloth, printing, etc. I wish this organization, with its help of the local people, all success." Now . . . *Prabhupāda: We're not only chanting, we are giving them work. We are trying to become self*-sufficient, the same idea of Gandhi's village organization, so they may not come out from the village. They'll be satisfied, village economics. That we are doing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Prabhupāda is doing the same thing in America now. Prabhupāda's . . . Prabhupāda: America we have nine . . . eleven centers like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Farms. This is a review from a local, from O. P. Baradraj, Principal of Government College for Men, Chandigarh. Prabhupāda: One minute. Perhaps you are, any representative of Novara Times here? Interviewer: Yes, he is here. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you published, I think two years before, about our New Vrindavan. And you stated that it is a wonderful land, that . . . what is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Dudh aur dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (River of milk and curd is flowing.) Prabhupāda: Adhyatmika ki Yamuna aur doodh dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (The Yamuna of spirituality and the river of milk and curd is flowing.) It is your remark. You have seen. Your representative went there and saw it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In October '74. Interviewer: Yes. Along with photographs. Prabhupāda: In big, whole page article with the . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) . . . published a series of four . . . three articles on last year's Janmāṣṭamī. This review from Mr. Baradraj . . . Prabhupāda: We are giving cow protection in the country where they are eaten by the people. Their staple food, beef, and they are accepting this movement, giving cow protection. Interviewer: Which are those areas? Prabhupāda: West Virginia, Philadelphia, New Orleans and . . . where? Miami, Canada, Vancouver. Like that. Interviewer: So if you don't mind, what is bad about eating . . . people who are eating beef? What is bad about it? Prabhupāda: Bad means you become bad. That's all. You can see these things are . . . Interviewer: But we can eat goat's meat, and other animal's meat. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And the thing is that cow is especially recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā , kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44), that you must produce enough food grains by agriculture and give protection to the cows. That means if you have got enough food grains to eat and if you have got enough milk to get fatty substance, then your whole economic question is solved. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). If you get sufficient food, there is no question of agitation. Everyone is satisfied, animal and man. So you must produce. That is recommendation in the Bhagavad-gītā . Interviewer: Sir, in the modern technological . . . Prabhupāda: Modern, we are not talking of modern or . . . we're talking . . . Interviewer: In this age, how has the, you know, instrument of production because of this tractor, mechanization of agriculture? *Prabhupāda: So that is your interpretation. But we are trying to present Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. That is our mission, that you produce food grains sufficiently and give protection to the cows so that food grains and milk will give you all benefits of economic question. You'll be satisfied. That's all. Not only that, I have practically seen that by God's arrangement there are so much land on this planet that you can produce ten times foodstuff of the whole population. But they are not doing that. They are utilizing land . . . just like in Africa I have seen, enough land is there, but what they are doing? They are keeping some cows and bulls, and when they are grown up . . . they are not given anything to eat; there is enough grass. And as soon as they are fatty, they are taken to the slaughterhouse—not for their own eating, but exporting. This business is going on. Similar business is going on in Australia and New Zealand. Unnecessarily they are killing these cows, and this shortage of foodstuff and shortage of milk, this is not good arrangement. *The recommended process in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). If you have sufficient foodstuff, then everyone is satisfied. And it is the duty of the vaiśya class, kṛṣi go-rakṣya vāṇijyam, go-rakṣya vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). The, according to Bhagavad-gītā , this is the business of the vaiśyas . The brāhmaṇas , they should be very much highly educated, enlightened in spiritual knowledge. The kṣatriyas , they should govern, give protection. The vaiśyas , they should produce enough food. And those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya , śūdras , they can help. That's all. This is their . . . then everyone will be satisfied. The society will go on. Just like in your body you require brain, the head—you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. Similarly, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . That is essential. If you have simply brain and no leg, then it is also useless. There must be brain and leg also. There must be brāhmaṇa, there must be śūdra, there must be . . . then the social arrangement is perfect. Interviewer: Would that mean that you support the ancient caste system? Prabhupāda: Huh? It is not caste system; it is division of labor. It is not caste system. A class of men must be intelligent; a class of men must be strong to give protection; and a class of men must be to produce food; *and a class of men, general worker. It is not caste system. Bhagavad*-gītā never says caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13): according to quality and work. You have made it caste system. You have no qualification of a brāhmaṇa , you are calling "I am brāhmaṇa ." That is caste system. But if you have got the quality of a brāhmaṇa and you work as a brāhmaṇa , that is necessary. That is necessary. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ . *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Could we just take two minutes of your time? This is a review from Śrī Baradraj, Principal of Government College for Men, Chandigarh. He says, " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is one of the great classics of India. This commentary is a significant contribution to the religious literature of this country. Many of the conflicting views on certain ślokas have been beautifully resolved by Swāmījī. I congratulate the members of the Society for bringing out this wonderful work in such a lucid form. I shall be looking forward to the other publications." This is a review from Dr. Varshneya, senior professor and Head of Hindi Department, Dean and Curator of Arts, honorary librarian, Allahabad University, Allahabad. "Śrī A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda has really done a great service to Indian philosophy, religion and culture by translating Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam into English, with learned commentaries, and has thus provided source material to the Western world. Other philosophical and religious works published by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust also present a golden opportunity to the Western philosophers and scholars to drink deep at the celestial fountain of ancient Indian philosophy and spiritual wisdom." I'm just reading a few very quick ones. *There's one from a leading professor in Chandigarh, who you must be knowing, Dr. Jagadish Sharma, M.A., . . . (indistinct) . . . Delhi? He's from Punjab University. Author of nineteen books including Encyclopedia of India. So here is what Dr. Sharma says: "India's contribution towards the revivalism of the Hindu civilization culture by way of printing the Harvard Oriental Series was tremendous. But the work done by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is unsurpassable." He says it's even greater. "His Holiness has done a great service to the Indian culture by re*-interpreting the concepts enshrined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . This edition of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will go a long way to help the scientists in rediscovering phenomena of the universe which is yet to be discovered. The printing and the get-up of this book is excellent. The thoughts of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam radiate to anyone who sees it. This book helps to brighten the gloomy and dark clouds which are covered by the nuclear fear and apprehension of society." Prabhupāda: Where is that book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness? Some of my students, they are Ph.D's in science. They have written this book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness . And we are going to publish another book, Life Comes From Lif e. Interviewer: Sir, why don't you present us one set of . . . (laughter) Some part . . . Prabhupāda: Because this is our means of income. Kindly give us some contribution, you take as many . . . (laughter) Interviewer: I could only purchase one book. I cannot purchase four dozen books. Now you are here, I think you should present us one set so that we may read this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a library here where everyone can come and read. Besides, five or six other . . . fifteen libraries in Chandigarh have all our books. You can visit either of those fifteen or the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (guests talk at once) Interviewer: Thank you very much. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So would any of you like to have any pictures of Gurujī? Or . . . (break) (end) *(reporters from the English*-language Times of India, the Press Trust of India, UNI, the Punjabi Akali Patarika and Ajit, and the Hindi and Urdu Hind Samachar) Interviewer: No, I've seen this. It is in the library. No, but still I . . . (indistinct) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Five hundred libraries in India have ordered these books in the last four months. Interviewer: Must have. These are very good quality book, it is. Very good quality. Prabhupāda: Give this one book from the . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I brought it back. (break) Prabhupāda: India's culture and knowledge are richer than any other culture. And that is being accepted. Yes. Real knowledge, real culture is in India. Unfortunately, we did not try in that way. We simply went to the foreign countries to beg, "Give us wheat, give us this, give us this, give us that." But if we give our culture, they will accept that India is still richer than any other. (aside) You can bring some of the press items, professor, learned scholars' opinions. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Aiye . (pause) *Prabhupāda: Where is Caitya*-guru? Haṁsadūta: He's out. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Opinions of the big scholars. Interviewer: I would request you to wait for five minutes, because some other journalists are coming. They are . . . Interviewer (2): Here is some material written about . . . Interviewer: Oh, really? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The electricity is off at the moment, so we . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purely a spiritual movement. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult to understand the activities of this movement. There are two things: material and spiritual. That is the beginning of instruction of the Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa begins with this statement: that this body is not the person; the soul is the person. Asmin dehe . Within this body there is the soul. And He has explained in different ways that this body is antavanta ime dehā ( BG 2.18). This body is perishable, but the soul is not perishable. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), that even after the destruction of the body the soul is not destroyed. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit . The soul never takes birth, never dies. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). There are so many things explained, what is the soul. So without the soul, this body is useless. That everyone can understand. Therefore the importance should be given to the soul, not to the body. Kṛṣṇa says that anyone who is paṇḍita , in knowledge, he does not give any importance to the body, either living or dead. *So the India's particular culture is how to elevate the soul to the highest platform of perfection. That is India's culture. The whole Vedic literature is meant for that, and Bhagavad*-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literature. And the purpose is that soul is now entrapped within this material world, and the human life is the opportunity for getting oneself out of this entrapment of material existence. So if we do not take care of this important business of human life—as it is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra , athāto brahma jijñāsā . . . this life is meant for understanding about the Brahman, or the spirit soul. And there are two kinds of spirit soul. One is called the Supersoul, and the other is called the individual soul. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā : kṣetra-kṣetrajñā , this chapter. Kṣetra means this body, and kṣetrajñā means one who knows about the body. You know about your body, not fully, but at least partially. Every one of us, we know, "This is my body. I am . . . I got this body from such father and mother. I belong . . . this body belongs to such and such country," and so on. This is one knowledge. *So another soul is there. That is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. He says that kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). That is Supersoul. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is everywhere within this universe, even within the atom. That is Supersoul. That Supersoul is . . . the distinction between soul and the Supersoul is this, that we are individual soul. I know about the pains and pleasure of my body, you know the pains and pleasure of your body. But I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body, you do not know the pains or pleasure of my body. The Supersoul, He knows the pains and pleasure of all bodies. That is the distinction. Ātmā , Paramātmā . So these things can be understood in the human form of life. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand. If we want to educate the cats and dogs that "My dear dog, you are not this body. You are different from this body. You are spirit soul, Brahman," he has no capacity to understand. And a human being, however fallen he may be, if he is educated, he can understand about the position of spirit soul and how to become free from this material bondage. *So in India we have got immense Vedic literature for understanding this business of the soul. And in human form of body, if we do not take care of the spiritual portion of our life, then we are making suicide. That is the proposal of all great personalities born in India, ācāryas like . . . recent . . . Formerly, there were big, big ācāryas like Vyāsadeva and others, Devala. Many, many ācāryas . And the recent, within, say, one thousand five hundred years, there are . . . there were many ācāryas like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, and within five hundred years Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They have also given us many literatures about this spiritual knowledge. But at the present moment this spiritual knowledge is neglected. So it is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message to the whole world that every one of you, you become guru , a spiritual master. So how everyone can become a spiritual master? To become a spiritual master is not easy job. One must be very learned scholar and must have full realization of the self and everything. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us a little formula, that if you strictly follow the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā , and if you preach the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā , then you become guru . The exact words used in Bengali, it is said, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). To become guru is very difficult job, but if you simply carry the message of Bhagavad-gītā and try to convince anyone you meet, then you become a guru . *So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for this purpose. We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, without any man interpretation. If we interpret Bhagavad-gītā in our own way, that is not very good. If you have got a different opinion, you can preach your philosophy. Everyone is free. But one should not take Bhagavad-gītā and through Bhagavad-gītā one will try to preach his own philosophy. That is very bad. You should not do that. Then the authority of Bhagavad-gītā is lost. If everyone can interpret in his own way, then where is the authority of the Bhagavad-gītā ? Just like in the Vedas . . . we take Vedas as the authority. But if you interpret in your own way and squeeze out some meaning in your own way, then where is authority of the Vedas ? So our special stress on this point is that don't squeeze out some meaning of Bhagavad-gītā for your own convenience. Present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people will be benefited. And that is being practically seen. We are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You have seen our book? Interviewer: When can we put questions? Devotee: After. *Prabhupāda: Yes, let me finish, that . . . we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and it is being accepted all over the world. People are very much, those who are scholars, they say that even Radhakrishnan and Aurobindo, they presented Bhagavad-gītā , making some compromise with the Western ideas. But here is presentation of Bhagavad-gītā in India's original, traditional way. So they welcome it. And this is our, I mean to say, object also, that we cannot allow Bhagavad-gītā to be understood by anyone's imagination. No. That is not possible. And that is not allowed in the Bhagavad-gītā by the author. Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter that as soon as the paramparā system of understanding is lost, then the whole thing is lost. In the Fourth Chapter it is said. (aside) Find out Fourth Chapter. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there another Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: Why don't you bring another copy? Hari-śauri: Pradyumna might have one. Interviewer: Here is one. *Prabhupāda: Fourth Chapter, you find, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Kṛṣṇa says that this Bhagavad-gītā knowledge was first of all given to . . . Fourth Chapter. Yes. *"Now, this paramparā system being lost, I am again reviving the Bhagavad*-gītā again to you, Arjuna." That means the author says if one does not understand Bhagavad-gītā through the paramparā system, then the whole thing is lost. So you cannot interpret Bhagavad-gītā in your own way. Then the authority and the purport of Bhagavad-gītā is lost. So we are trying to revive this paramparā system, and fortunately we have sold millions copies of this edition of Bhagavad-gītā . We are printing five hundred thousand, three hundred thousand, like that, and all over the world. There are many Bhagavad-gītās . There are about six hundred and forty different editions. But still our, this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, it is being accepted very widely, and therefore we are very much hopeful. *And as practical example you can see so many European, American, they have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness very seriously. And before this movement, many svāmīs , yogīs and scholars went to the foreign countries, but not a single person became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. Not a single person. But now, because Bhagavad*-gītā is being presented as it is, so many thousands, they are becoming devotees of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So this movement has practical effect, and both in the scholarly and people in general circle. And as advised by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, India should take this movement very seriously and send many trained teachers so that India's glories will be enhanced. People will take it very seriously. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You can ask your questions now. Interviewer: Sir, who initiated you into this movement? Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja. (aside) You show my Guru Mahārāja's picture here. Here is a picture. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here, here. Haṁsadūta has it right here. Prabhupāda: He asked me to do this. Haṁsadūta: Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda. Interviewer: Has he a seat here in India? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Founder of the Gauḍīya Math. *Prabhupāda: He is the founder of Gauḍīya Math. He advised me to take up this movement when I was twenty*-five years old, young man. But at that time I thought that "I am a married man, let me wait." So waiting, waiting. When I retired at the . . . I was born in 1896. So I retired in 1954. That means I retired at the age of fifty-eight years? At fifty-eight years. Then I remained as a vānaprastha in Vṛndāvana up to seventieth year of my age. Then I thought that "Guru Mahārāja asked me to do this at the age of . . . when I was twenty-five years old. I could not do it. So let me try." So by his grace and Kṛṣṇa's grace, it became little successful. That's all. In 1965 I went to New York without any help. But gradually, in 1966, I registered this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in New York. And then gradually, it spread whole America, Europe, Australia, Canada. Like that. Interviewer: What is the reason of the success of your mission in the foreign countries? Haṁsadūta: "What is the reason of your success in foreign countries?" Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very intelligent question. We are after material civilization, and they are fed up with material civilization. That is the position. We are now trying to imitate them, a skyscraper building, but they are disgusted with such skyscraper building. These boys, they are coming from very respectable family, rich family, and especially in America there is no question of poor man. There is no question of poor man. But still, they do not like the materialistic way of life of their father and grandfathers. Interviewer: But does that not mean because they are rich, they can afford religion? Prabhupāda: No, no. That is the . . . because you are . . . we have already explained. You are a spiritual being. You cannot be satisfied with material atmosphere in any stage. Just like a fish is an animal of the water. If you bring the fish from water and keep on the land very comfortably, it cannot be comfortable. It is impossible. Similarly, we are all spiritual being. Any amount of material comforts will never satisfy us, unless we come to the spiritual platform. That is the demand. So now they have satisfied their material demands, but the urge is there, "I want something more, to be happy." And that is spiritual. Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples, or do your other disciples also do that? Prabhupāda: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) . . . knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing. So our this movement is successful . . . on account of this movement . . . (faulty recording) (break) . . . because learned scholars and those who are inquisitive, advanced, they are seeing, "Yes, here is . . ." (break) Interviewer: . . . success abroad? Prabhupāda: Who has abroad success? Name them. (break) So it is not . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody knows of this. Interviewer: Maharishi . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Well, Maharishi does not say . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) He says that this is material. If you perform this meditation, Transcendental Meditation, you will be materially benefited. That is not spiritual meditation. Interviewer: (indistinct) . . . you have said that India should take this movement seriously. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: How do you want India to take this movement? *Prabhupāda: Seriously means that a spiritual movement is India's spiritual movement. So if some of our leading men take seriously, then whatever I am doing single*-handed . . . I don't get any support, either from the Indian public or from the government. But if they take it seriously, then we can present in more organized way, and it will be more successful. So far it is done single-handed. Interviewer: Do you think there is a necessity to open a ministry of religion? Prabhupāda: I think so. Because there is a cultural department in the central government, (chuckles) but they do not know what is culture. Just see. Interviewer: What is the difference between God consciousness and Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: There is no difference. The same thing. Kṛṣṇa is God. (break) Interviewer: What is, sir, the number of your disciples round the world? Prabhupāda: Dedicated life—not less than ten thousand. And admirers, there are many millions. Recently one American politician has remarked in Houston that "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is spreading like epidemic. So unless we take some steps, it may take our government." (laughter) Interviewer: Who was the man who said it? Prabhupāda: Just say. Hari-śauri: A government official in Houston. Prabhupāda: No, no, what is his name? You can give. Hari-śauri: His name was not given. Prabhupāda: Oh. Simply it is said a government official. Interviewer: He said on the floor of the House or outside? Hari-śauri: Said it on the TV. Haṁsadūta: Houston. Houston, Texas. (everyone talking at once) Interviewer: Are you getting any opposition from the Church? Prabhupāda: No. That is very favorable. Interviewer: No opposition. Prabhupāda: No. Otherwise, it was impossible. At least in America they have never prevented me. But in Europe, especially in England and Germany, they, the Christian group, they are little angry with me. But so far America, they are very liberal. They never put any impediments in my movement. Rather, government appreciates. The appreciated one point, that the American younger generation, they have become addicted to this LSD, intoxication, and they have spent millions of dollars to stop this, but they could not. But they are surprised that as soon as this LSD man becomes my disciple, he gives up immediately. Interviewer: Sir, apart from Catholicity of the American Church, what can be the other reasons of their indifference towards your positive ideas? Prabhupāda: Not indifference. They are . . . you see, there is a remark of a politician. There is no indifference. They are appreciating that it is spreading like epidemic. There is no question of indifference. But the leaders, they appreciate. Some of the fathers of my disciples, they come to offer their thanks, "Swāmījī, it is a great fortune for us that you have come to our country." They say like that. They appreciate that their sons were going to be hippies. Now they are devotees, God conscious. So any sane man will never object to this. The priests also, they say that "These boys are our boys," in Boston, one priest said, "and they never cared to come to the church or inquire about God. And now these boys are mad after God." Not only that, practically, in many places we have purchased churches and converted into temples. So we see these churches were sold because nobody was coming. But since this movement is there, the same church is there and the same persons are there—you will find always it is crowded. This is practical. I have not imported men from India to fill up the temples. Their men and their church, but the philosophy is different, it is filled up. Interviewer: Can you give us the number how many temples are there in foreign countries? Prabhupāda: I have established 102 temples. Small and big. Out of them, very big temples are in Los Angeles, in London, in Hawaii, Honolulu, in Detroit . . . and . . . Haṁsadūta: New York, Chicago. Prabhupāda: New York, Chicago. Hari-śauri: Toronto. *Prabhupāda: Toronto, Montreal, Paris, so many. Very, very big temples. The cost is sometimes fifty lakhs , fifty*-five lakhs each temple. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New York is more than a million dollars, New York temple. Interviewer: Do you have any proposal to spread this movement in Communist countries? Prabhupāda: Yes, we have already gone. I have been in Moscow. This, my secretary, he has brought some order from them. They are also appreciating. Interviewer: Now two priests of your temple in America have been arrested on certain charges as we read from the newspaper . . . *Prabhupāda: Well, the charges will be there. Gandhi was also charged and was arrested. And that you cannot stop. That will go on in any movement. That is not any fault. Because the counter*-charges are already there, everywhere. What is the American charges? I do not know. What is that? Interviewer: That you have took money from . . . extortion of money from the devotees. Asking their parents to pay, or some such thing. Prabhupāda: Parents to pay. This is a farce. Interviewer: As a donation or contribution. Prabhupāda: So we can ask donation from anyone. What is the fault there? Is it extortion? What is that extortion? Suppose if I ask for donation . . . Interviewer: No, they equate that this donation was extortion. Prabhupāda: No, no, extortion, what do you mean by extortion? If I ask you donation and if you pay, does it mean it is extortion? Interviewer: They say those two people were kept in custody before . . . *Prabhupāda: That is false accusation. There was no such charge. Besides that, we do not have many contribution. We have got contribution, big lump sum money . . . one of my disciples is the great*-grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. So he has given a big contribution, and he's always prepared to spend for me. He has got enough money. Another boy, George Harrison, Beatle, he has given us the London temple. It is worth about fifty-five, sixty lakhs worth. So we don't get any money, but they have given us many buildings. And our main source of income is the selling of these books. We are selling books daily all over the world, five to six lakhs rupees. Interviewer: Five to six lakhs . . . Prabhupāda: Rupees. Per day. Interviewer: Per day! Prabhupāda: And by this collection, from this collection, we are bringing money in India. We are bringing money in India not less than ten lakhs of rupees per month. Our buildings and temples are going on in Bombay, in Vṛndāvana, in Navadvīpa. So we have got at least ten lakhs of rupees' expenditure for these temples, and that I am bringing from foreign countries. So if by laboring hard at night in this Dictaphone I write books, and I sell them in the foreign countries and I bring the money here for spending in India, do you think it is faulty? Interviewer: One American professor who is a teacher of Hinduism there, in some of the universities you mentioned, she said, I asked him a question about ISKCON, and she said, "Well this thing is creating a bad impression in the sense that people are accosted everywhere—in the streets, on the airport, at the bus stand. They accost you and force you to buy their literature, to buy their books. And this is creating a revulsion." Prabhupāda: So why you are forced? Suppose as preaching work . . . in our childhood we saw the Christian preachers were also standing on the road. So if we stand on the road and preach and sell our books, what is the fault? Interviewer: I put that. He said you are doing what the Christian . . . (break) Prabhupāda: No. What is the problem? (break) No. The government allowed them, the Christian people. The government is allowing us also. Then where is the fault? Interviewer: The fault is . . . Prabhupāda: That is your imagination, fault. Interviewer: It's not a legal fault. Prabhupāda: Well, that's all right. We are preacher, we must preach in every way. We shall go everyone, that "Here is Kṛṣṇa consciousness literature. Kindly take it." That is our business. The government does not object to this. There are many cases in the court, and the court allowed, "Yes. They should sell." We have got some . . . (break) (faulty recording—not possible to properly hear; Prabhupada is arguing that as salesmen, if we canvass and people buy, there is nothing wrong in that) *Hari-śauri: (indistinct) . . . we distribute every week 22,000 books like this, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , 16,000 medium books . . . (indistinct) . . . magazines. So how is it possible we are forcing? About 150,000 people every week to take our books. *Prabhupāda: Not only that. Where is that letter? Standard Literature? Here, there is one English company, Standard Literature Company. They are proposing that "We shall purchase every quarterly 200 sets of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Let us settle terms." Do you mean to say it is extortion? And the professors are giving their opinion by extortion? It is appreciation. Unfortunately, you don't appreciate. Interviewer: But what is the reason your . . . Prabhupāda: Because there is substance. There is spiritual substance. They are appreciating. Interviewer: What is your analysis for why it is not being . . . (inaudible recording) *Prabhupāda: Because you have rejected. You have rejected. Your policy is now American, technology. You have given up spiritual (inaudible recording). Therefore in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, find out this verse, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām samādhau na vidhīyate (BG 2.44). Vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ . Those who are . . . whose attention is drawn to the material comforts, they cannot take an interest in spiritual life. (inaudible recording) Our attention is diverted how to improve materially. Therefore we are disinterested. But they have seen much about material advancement, they are not happy. Material advancement means generally, as we understand from the literature, viśayinaṁ saṅdarśanam atha yoṣitaṁ ca (CC Madhya 11.8). Material comfort means woman and money. So they have tasted all this woman and money enough. Woman, money are available very easily. But they are not interested. Interviewer: Sir, do you think it is necessary for India to eschew religion? *Prabhupāda: It is not religion. I have already explained. Did you not mark that this is spiritual knowledge? You are combination of spirit and matter. The spirit I have already explained. And if you don't take care of the spirit portion, then you are making suicide. You are losing the opportunity of your human life. It is essential. One should be cognizant of the spiritual necessity of life. Otherwise, you are losing the opportunity of this human form of life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Then you remain as cats and dogs, and there is risk, very risky life. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). You do not know what kind of body you are going to get next life. It is essential. You must be prepared . . . (break) . . . body, but you do not know what kind of body you are going to accept. That knowledge is lacking. Interviewer: One question. You have priced these books very high comparatively for the poorer countries. Do you have any plans to reduce . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "You have priced these books very high for poor countries." Haṁsadūta: We're printing locally now. The same books, but local printing so that they can be afforded by the public. Prabhupāda: Yes. When we print locally it will be sold at half price. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This Bhagavad*-gītā , for example, it's going to be sold to the masses at fifteen rupees in about three weeks. We are printing the Indian edition with 48 color plates. The government of India is giving us concessional paper for printing. They are very pleased with our . . . we're getting lot of concessional paper, so we are expanding the printing. Interviewer: What is the price of this edition? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is, in America, it's seven dollars, seven dollars ninety*-five cents. Prabhupāda: And what the Home Member has said? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Home Minister? The Home Minister recently said that he wants this movement to be spread all over the world. One of the prominent people said he wants this movement to be spread all over the world. Interviewer: Now, sir, from your lips, how to attain this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and to maintain it? Prabhupāda: Once you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will maintain. You won't have to . . . Interviewer: No, from your own, direct from your lips, how to . . . *Prabhupāda: No, this direction is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that . . . (aside) Find out this verse, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is very simple thing. Find out this verse. (Indian guest is entering or leaving and Prabhupāda requests in Hindi for him to take prasādam ) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me. Offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." Interviewer: Which chapter? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's Chapter Nine, verse 34. *Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty? If you think of Kṛṣṇa, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto , is there any difficulty? There is no difficulty. Interviewer: I think his problem is, it is my problem as well. You see, the spiritual consciousness does not stay at the same level. Sometimes you are well absorbed. At other times you do all the arja , the arja , the bhakti . It's not a constant factor. Prabhupāda: No, you have to keep it constantly. Interviewer: How to do it? That is the problem. Prabhupāda: That we have see. If you come to our center, live with us, you'll see how we are doing it. You are welcome. You can live with us any time or any period of time. You'll see how we are doing that. Interviewer: Thank you, but you know I have been living here quite often, but . . . Prabhupāda: We have our centers. We have got big centers in Bombay, in Navadvīpa, in Vṛndāvana. We have got very comfortable guesthouse. So you can come and live with us and see practically. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If you all don't mind, just for five minutes, we would like to read the selected extracts from some leading scholars about this movement. We're not reading the views of Western scholars. These books are being used in five thousand universities, including Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, but some of the leading Indian scholars, so you also get an understanding of the Indian appreciation of Prabhupāda's activities. This, for example, is a letter from Mr. Ghosh, District and Summon Judge in West Bengal: "I'm highly impressed at the sincerity and devotion of the disciples of the International Society of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. A visit to the Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir, West Bengal, sublimes the mind from all harsh talk and disturbing influences." Then . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Stop now. Don't divert attention. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a letter from Śrī Ambarish Sarkar, General Secretary of the Nadia District Congress Committee. "I have had an opportunity to visit the Śrī Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir on the 12th August, 1975. It is absolutely a religious institution. Jayapātāka Swami has devoted all of his efforts and endeavors to organize and propound the sacred name of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. I'm impressed by his charming manner and strength. Although it is a religious institution, this organization has performed many social services. Many poor and destitute families have had an opportunity to work, and at the same time they have become worshipers of Lord Śrī Caitanya. To engage these workers, so many industrial centers have already been started, such as handloom cloth, printing, etc. I wish this organization, with its help of the local people, all success." Now . . . *Prabhupāda: We're not only chanting, we are giving them work. We are trying to become self*-sufficient, the same idea of Gandhi's village organization, so they may not come out from the village. They'll be satisfied, village economics. That we are doing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Prabhupāda is doing the same thing in America now. Prabhupāda's . . . Prabhupāda: America we have nine . . . eleven centers like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Farms. This is a review from a local, from O. P. Baradraj, Principal of Government College for Men, Chandigarh. Prabhupāda: One minute. Perhaps you are, any representative of Novara Times here? Interviewer: Yes, he is here. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you published, I think two years before, about our New Vrindavan. And you stated that it is a wonderful land, that . . . what is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Dudh aur dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (River of milk and curd is flowing.) Prabhupāda: Adhyatmika ki Yamuna aur doodh dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (The Yamuna of spirituality and the river of milk and curd is flowing.) It is your remark. You have seen. Your representative went there and saw it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In October '74. Interviewer: Yes. Along with photographs. Prabhupāda: In big, whole page article with the . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) . . . published a series of four . . . three articles on last year's Janmāṣṭamī. This review from Mr. Baradraj . . . Prabhupāda: We are giving cow protection in the country where they are eaten by the people. Their staple food, beef, and they are accepting this movement, giving cow protection. Interviewer: Which are those areas? Prabhupāda: West Virginia, Philadelphia, New Orleans and . . . where? Miami, Canada, Vancouver. Like that. Interviewer: So if you don't mind, what is bad about eating . . . people who are eating beef? What is bad about it? Prabhupāda: Bad means you become bad. That's all. You can see these things are . . . Interviewer: But we can eat goat's meat, and other animal's meat. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And the thing is that cow is especially recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā , kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44), that you must produce enough food grains by agriculture and give protection to the cows. That means if you have got enough food grains to eat and if you have got enough milk to get fatty substance, then your whole economic question is solved. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). If you get sufficient food, there is no question of agitation. Everyone is satisfied, animal and man. So you must produce. That is recommendation in the Bhagavad-gītā . Interviewer: Sir, in the modern technological . . . Prabhupāda: Modern, we are not talking of modern or . . . we're talking . . . Interviewer: In this age, how has the, you know, instrument of production because of this tractor, mechanization of agriculture? *Prabhupāda: So that is your interpretation. But we are trying to present Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. That is our mission, that you produce food grains sufficiently and give protection to the cows so that food grains and milk will give you all benefits of economic question. You'll be satisfied. That's all. Not only that, I have practically seen that by God's arrangement there are so much land on this planet that you can produce ten times foodstuff of the whole population. But they are not doing that. They are utilizing land . . . just like in Africa I have seen, enough land is there, but what they are doing? They are keeping some cows and bulls, and when they are grown up . . . they are not given anything to eat; there is enough grass. And as soon as they are fatty, they are taken to the slaughterhouse—not for their own eating, but exporting. This business is going on. Similar business is going on in Australia and New Zealand. Unnecessarily they are killing these cows, and this shortage of foodstuff and shortage of milk, this is not good arrangement. *The recommended process in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). If you have sufficient foodstuff, then everyone is satisfied. And it is the duty of the vaiśya class, kṛṣi go-rakṣya vāṇijyam, go-rakṣya vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). The, according to Bhagavad-gītā , this is the business of the vaiśyas . The brāhmaṇas , they should be very much highly educated, enlightened in spiritual knowledge. The kṣatriyas , they should govern, give protection. The vaiśyas , they should produce enough food. And those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya , śūdras , they can help. That's all. This is their . . . then everyone will be satisfied. The society will go on. Just like in your body you require brain, the head—you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. Similarly, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . That is essential. If you have simply brain and no leg, then it is also useless. There must be brain and leg also. There must be brāhmaṇa, there must be śūdra, there must be . . . then the social arrangement is perfect. Interviewer: Would that mean that you support the ancient caste system? Prabhupāda: Huh? It is not caste system; it is division of labor. It is not caste system. A class of men must be intelligent; a class of men must be strong to give protection; and a class of men must be to produce food; *and a class of men, general worker. It is not caste system. Bhagavad*-gītā never says caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13): according to quality and work. You have made it caste system. You have no qualification of a brāhmaṇa , you are calling "I am brāhmaṇa ." That is caste system. But if you have got the quality of a brāhmaṇa and you work as a brāhmaṇa , that is necessary. That is necessary. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ . *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Could we just take two minutes of your time? This is a review from Śrī Baradraj, Principal of Government College for Men, Chandigarh. He says, " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is one of the great classics of India. This commentary is a significant contribution to the religious literature of this country. Many of the conflicting views on certain ślokas have been beautifully resolved by Swāmījī. I congratulate the members of the Society for bringing out this wonderful work in such a lucid form. I shall be looking forward to the other publications." This is a review from Dr. Varshneya, senior professor and Head of Hindi Department, Dean and Curator of Arts, honorary librarian, Allahabad University, Allahabad. "Śrī A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda has really done a great service to Indian philosophy, religion and culture by translating Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam into English, with learned commentaries, and has thus provided source material to the Western world. Other philosophical and religious works published by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust also present a golden opportunity to the Western philosophers and scholars to drink deep at the celestial fountain of ancient Indian philosophy and spiritual wisdom." I'm just reading a few very quick ones. *There's one from a leading professor in Chandigarh, who you must be knowing, Dr. Jagadish Sharma, M.A., . . . (indistinct) . . . Delhi? He's from Punjab University. Author of nineteen books including Encyclopedia of India. So here is what Dr. Sharma says: "India's contribution towards the revivalism of the Hindu civilization culture by way of printing the Harvard Oriental Series was tremendous. But the work done by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is unsurpassable." He says it's even greater. "His Holiness has done a great service to the Indian culture by re*-interpreting the concepts enshrined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . This edition of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will go a long way to help the scientists in rediscovering phenomena of the universe which is yet to be discovered. The printing and the get-up of this book is excellent. The thoughts of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam radiate to anyone who sees it. This book helps to brighten the gloomy and dark clouds which are covered by the nuclear fear and apprehension of society." Prabhupāda: Where is that book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness? Some of my students, they are Ph.D's in science. They have written this book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness . And we are going to publish another book, Life Comes From Lif e. Interviewer: Sir, why don't you present us one set of . . . (laughter) Some part . . . Prabhupāda: Because this is our means of income. Kindly give us some contribution, you take as many . . . (laughter) Interviewer: I could only purchase one book. I cannot purchase four dozen books. Now you are here, I think you should present us one set so that we may read this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a library here where everyone can come and read. Besides, five or six other . . . fifteen libraries in Chandigarh have all our books. You can visit either of those fifteen or the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (guests talk at once) Interviewer: Thank you very much. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So would any of you like to have any pictures of Gurujī? Or . . . (break) (end) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks how many pages. Yogānanda asks how many . . . because they say that you sent a newsletter to all the GBCs and He asks how many pages was the newsletter. And I said just two lines. Prabhupāda: Newspaper? Hari-śauri: Newsletter to the GBC. Prabhupāda: What is that newsletter? Hari-śauri: You said: "Please be informed that Nitāi has become a venomous serpent." Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: "Please be informed that Nitāi has become a venomous serpent." Prabhupāda: So this has been sent? (laughs) Hari-śauri: Yes, to the GBC. *Pṛthu*-putra: Yogānanda asked how many pages, when he heard about the newsletter. He thought that you spoke so long about that. And I just said, "Just two lines." But they never asked me what the letter said. Prabhupāda: Yes, two lines is sufficient. Dhanañjaya: Punar mūṣiko bhava . Prabhupāda: Ah? Dhanañjaya: Punar mūṣiko bhava . Prabhupāda: What is that? Dhanañjaya: Punar mūṣiko bhava . Prabhupāda: Yes. This is exactly the same case. Punar mūṣiko bhava , you know the whole story? A mūṣika , a mouse, was made a tiger, and the tiger wanted to eat the saintly person who made him. First of all he was mouse. So he came to the saintly person, "Sir, I am troubled. Give me some benediction." "What do you want?" "Now, the cat always chases." "All right, you become cat so that you'll not be attacked." Then after some time he came, "I am being chased by the dog." "All right, you become a dog." From cat to dog, from mouse to . . . then again he came. "Still they are chasing me. Fox." And then in this way, and ultimately he was made a tiger. And after becoming a tiger, he began to look, staring on the . . . "What do you mean by this?" "I shall eat you." "Oh? You become again a mouse." (laughter) Again he become mouse. That's all. Hari-śauri: The perfect example. Prabhupāda: Ha? Hari-śauri: The perfect example. *Pṛthu*-putra: Now he look like dirty. You know, like brown. The dhotī's not white. It's like brownish, you know, like . . . Prabhupāda: He harassed. "He has not increased my . . ." Hearing and hearing, he wants to go. So why not, if he found some real disciplic succession, some bābājī , why he did not remain there? He is criticizing that our is not in the proper succession. So why he did not remain where he found the proper succession? Why he's sometimes in Vṛndāvana, sometimes Delhi, sometimes here? Why he is loitering? Crazy. Unfortunate. Unnecessarily picking out some trouble. *Hari-śauri: Fault*-finding. Prabhupāda: The bābājīs , they are against anything preaching. They are very, very much against preaching. So I am preaching. Bābājīs , the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs , and all of them, their idea is that I am ruining this bhajana and Hindu dharma . This is the propaganda. What I am writing, they are all wrong, and they are making . . . and they try to poison my disciples as far as possible so that the whole institution may be poisoned and break. This is their propaganda. Hari-śauri: That was one thing that Nitāi put in his letter, that the teachings of ISKCON are completely opposite or contradictory to what is actually in the śāstra . Prabhupāda: Now he has become tiger. He wants to kill that philosophy. When he did not know anything, he came to us. Now he has become learned, he wants to criticize. The same philosophy, "You have made me tiger, now I can see you are my eatable . . . (indistinct) . . ." (laughs) He could not find out any other eatable. "I shall eat you." The rascal. What can be done? (end) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks how many pages. Yogānanda asks how many . . . because they say that you sent a newsletter to all the GBCs and He asks how many pages was the newsletter. And I said just two lines. Prabhupāda: Newspaper? Hari-śauri: Newsletter to the GBC. Prabhupāda: What is that newsletter? Hari-śauri: You said: "Please be informed that Nitāi has become a venomous serpent." Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: "Please be informed that Nitāi has become a venomous serpent." Prabhupāda: So this has been sent? (laughs) Hari-śauri: Yes, to the GBC. *Pṛthu*-putra: Yogānanda asked how many pages, when he heard about the newsletter. He thought that you spoke so long about that. And I just said, "Just two lines." But they never asked me what the letter said. Prabhupāda: Yes, two lines is sufficient. Dhanañjaya: Punar mūṣiko bhava . Prabhupāda: Ah? Dhanañjaya: Punar mūṣiko bhava . Prabhupāda: What is that? Dhanañjaya: Punar mūṣiko bhava . Prabhupāda: Yes. This is exactly the same case. Punar mūṣiko bhava , you know the whole story? A mūṣika , a mouse, was made a tiger, and the tiger wanted to eat the saintly person who made him. First of all he was mouse. So he came to the saintly person, "Sir, I am troubled. Give me some benediction." "What do you want?" "Now, the cat always chases." "All right, you become cat so that you'll not be attacked." Then after some time he came, "I am being chased by the dog." "All right, you become a dog." From cat to dog, from mouse to . . . then again he came. "Still they are chasing me. Fox." And then in this way, and ultimately he was made a tiger. And after becoming a tiger, he began to look, staring on the . . . "What do you mean by this?" "I shall eat you." "Oh? You become again a mouse." (laughter) Again he become mouse. That's all. Hari-śauri: The perfect example. Prabhupāda: Ha? Hari-śauri: The perfect example. *Pṛthu*-putra: Now he look like dirty. You know, like brown. The dhotī's not white. It's like brownish, you know, like . . . Prabhupāda: He harassed. "He has not increased my . . ." Hearing and hearing, he wants to go. So why not, if he found some real disciplic succession, some bābājī , why he did not remain there? He is criticizing that our is not in the proper succession. So why he did not remain where he found the proper succession? Why he's sometimes in Vṛndāvana, sometimes Delhi, sometimes here? Why he is loitering? Crazy. Unfortunate. Unnecessarily picking out some trouble. *Hari-śauri: Fault*-finding. Prabhupāda: The bābājīs , they are against anything preaching. They are very, very much against preaching. So I am preaching. Bābājīs , the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs , and all of them, their idea is that I am ruining this bhajana and Hindu dharma . This is the propaganda. What I am writing, they are all wrong, and they are making . . . and they try to poison my disciples as far as possible so that the whole institution may be poisoned and break. This is their propaganda. Hari-śauri: That was one thing that Nitāi put in his letter, that the teachings of ISKCON are completely opposite or contradictory to what is actually in the śāstra . Prabhupāda: Now he has become tiger. He wants to kill that philosophy. When he did not know anything, he came to us. Now he has become learned, he wants to criticize. The same philosophy, "You have made me tiger, now I can see you are my eatable . . . (indistinct) . . ." (laughs) He could not find out any other eatable. "I shall eat you." The rascal. What can be done? (end) Prabhupāda: . . . I want to do something in India. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, if you can arrange. Now I am purchasing car. I have given money to Gargamuni. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: So one car here in Delhi side, one in Calcutta side, one in . . . (indistinct) . . . for my going. And he is a good driver, he will drive. Eh? I do not know, but he said. (laughter) Hari-śauri: (indistinct) . . . I don't know about in India. Different thing altogether. Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta is also a good driver. Haṁsadūta: I am good for nothing. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Driver we'll get, there is no . . . so I want to preach little in the village. So for that purpose, in the big bus like that, we shall go with our tents, and we camp in a place where there is water, and begin our preaching. And Hindi books we are getting. In this way let me try in India, in the village, not in the city. Devotee: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: For us there is no problem, Prabhupāda, but it may be difficult for Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: No, what is difficult? (laughter) But I want to do something for India in the village. So that I . . . that, we are getting lands, making one center, we can go here and there, not continually. Suppose here is a center, we go sometimes this side, sometimes this side, sometimes come back again. Haṁsadūta: Um hmm. Hari-śauri: Find one good camping spot. Prabhupāda: Yes. You go early in the morning and do something. If it is favorable . . . just like in Bengal they are doing. Get good reception. You have heard it? Haṁsadūta: Yes, I heard. Prabhupāda: Very good reception. Haṁsadūta: Villagers give the best reception. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: Because they're . . . Prabhupāda: Still. Haṁsadūta: They're still faithful to culture. Hari-śauri: Unless we get the farm, this farming scheme set up within the next . . . Prabhupāda: We are getting so many. Hari-śauri: We're getting the farms, but we haven't got the management, so . . . Prabhupāda: Management, that is in your hands. You have to . . . who will give you management? You have to manage local—local men. Bon Mahārāja was failure that he could not get the local men. But I did not try to bring men from India and preach in England or America. Akṣayānanda: Hmm. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? The British Empire was established on management. They did not bring men from England. Few managers, that's all. That is called management. One man can control hundreds and thousands of men, and that is management. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Locally attracted. These Britishers came here, they introduced this zamindarī system. Haṁsadūta: The what? Prabhupāda: Zamindarī system. Haṁsadūta: Zamindar . Prabhupāda: Landlord. Haṁsadūta: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So any third*-class man, if he's given some land, naturally he will be very much pleased. They created that aristocracy. So he selected some men that, "You give me four annas per bīghā , and whatever you can collect, that is your." That is the old system in India, zamindarī system. So collector, collector, the local collector, he appointed somebody. They used to give one lease that, "You give government four annas per bīghā , and whatever you can collect, that is your business." So that created an aristocratic society, and they all supported Britishers, because they're obliged. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly in business also, they appointed brokers that, "I am bringing a cloth from Manchester, if you can sell you'll get so much commission." So without any investment . . . Haṁsadūta: They were in business. Prabhupāda: A broker club business. So the businessmen, the zamindars , and gradually they started their factories, railways—in this way they started. And they are big politicians, so it is their management. And they failed when things were mismanaged. First of all they created friendship, and later on when they were in power, they created enmity. Then it is failed. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: First of all friendship, and that established them. And then they began to create enmity, Hindus against Muslim, Muslim . . . they wanted to stay. When they forgot this idea that if they wanted to stay for the benefit of the people, nobody could drive them away. But their policy was for the benefit of the English people. Therefore they failed. Lord Curzon, he says a statement that, "If you want to stay in India, rule India for the benefit of Indian people. You can keep control over India. They are fond of kings, so one member of the royal family can become king here, and they'll earn respect and honor, these Indian people. But rule for their benefit. Then British Empire will stay." Very good advice, but his advice was not taken. You have seen Lord Curzon's statue near the . . . in front of the Victoria Memorial Hall? Haṁsadūta: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: He was a very good governor*-general. Many gentlemen came, they ruled very conscientiously, and the last one, that rascal Chelmsford (chuckles), he created havoc. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: I saw in London . . . near London there is a village, Chelmsford, and he is Lord Chelmsford. We thought Chelmsford, the big state. (laughter) We were under the impression Thames River is four times bigger than Ganges, and (laughter) it is a canal. When I saw it, it is nothing but a canal. But they advertise this river, very big river. And underneath the water, men are going, and upper and wonderful. Big Ben, that Big Ben advertisement. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Parliament. All photograph (laughter) actually. Downing Street, 10 Downing Street, Prime Minister's office and so on. And actually it's all (chuckles) no importance. Parliament, big, big advertisement. People are still going, they are paying fees to see. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Now that is their income. Hari-śauri: Yeah, tourism is their biggest source of income, now. Prabhupāda: It is always cloudy. People are going to see the Westminster Abbey and Parliament. Haṁsadūta: The whole tourist industry runs on propaganda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: When you get there, there is nothing to see. Prabhupāda: In Parliament they have got old records bound up, almirah. You have seen? What it will do now? Speech of such and such person, speech of . . . (indistinct) (long pause) Prabhupāda: What they . . . why this water is? Hari-śauri: Well, they are watering the garden. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Were you thinking of any particular time when you wanted to do this village program? Prabhupāda: Hmm. I have nowhere experience. Hari-śauri: Haṁsadūta Mahārāja has traveled around . . . Haṁsadūta: You can do it from here, even. You can start track from Vṛndāvana. (car door slams) Prabhupāda: I think some car has come? Akṣayānanda: Maybe that's Bhīma. I'll check. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Maybe you could do it from Bengal, from Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Do the villages there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Because . . . Haṁsadūta: Here the weather is already getting cold. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: And in Hyderabad the peoples don't speak Hindi. They speak Telugu.. Hari-śauri: Bengal seems like the best place, because right now at least the weather is really nice. And Gargamuni's men have a lot of experience there, Śatadhanya and Jayapatāka. They know all the villages. Could do some good programs. Prabhupāda: This blood pressure is troubling. (break) They are chanting, "Say Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) They're taking, "Mind control." Haṁsadūta: Yeah, mind control. Prabhupāda: Ordinarily they cannot charge anything, mind control, brainwash—subtle thing. Just like I . . . "I am sick." "How you are feeling?" "I am feeling some pain in the belly." Who is going to see? (laughter) (makes groaning noise of pain) Who can say? It is like that. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: If you say that, "I am feeling some pain in this brain" or in there, who is going to see? Haṁsadūta: Yeah, who can prove it? Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to believe me, that's all. Haṁsadūta: I noticed in several of the articles, though, they mentioned that this District Attorney is now going to expand his investigation to see where the money goes. This is what they're really interested in. And when they see . . . what will happen is, when they see that some of the devotees collecting three, four hundred dollars on the street, then they will print this in the newspaper, and in this way . . . Prabhupāda: But they collect money by selling book. Haṁsadūta: I know, but people don't understand this. They simply see that, "Oh, these are astronomical sums of money being collected. So what is being done with this money by people who are just chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? What do they do with it?" Then, "Oh, they have bought this big building in New York. They are doing . . . spending money like this, like that." Ultimately this is what it always come to—money. They want to see what is happening with the money. Prabhupāda: And similarly here also, "Where they are getting money?" Haṁsadūta: Yeah, because wherever there is money transaction, the government wants to take some. They feel, "Well, we should have some of this money for ourselves, also." Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: So this may be a problem in this case. The thing about brainwashing is not at all important. The important thing is if they look into our financial . . . Prabhupāda: That is our BBT Trust . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . activities. Prabhupāda: That by the sales of . . . sales proceeds, we fifty percent for printing book and fifty percent for expanding, temples. Haṁsadūta: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is religion. That is clearly written there. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So how they can check it? We are selling books. Haṁsadūta: I don't think that in . . . in the end they will not be able to do anything, but for some time they can give us some trouble, harass us. Prabhupāda: So we have got already experience what it is to be done. Suggest. Haṁsadūta: Well, we have to make a presentation of our movement properly, just like Tamāla suggested in the letter. Prominent persons, they have to speak on our behalf. And of course, the books must be in order. Prabhupāda: Another thing, that all the Indians in Europe and America, they should sign that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine religious. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Similarly here also, all the Kṛṣṇa conscious persons, especially here in Vṛndāvana, all the Gosvāmīs, they should be approached that this is the genuine Indian culture. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Hari-śauri: Perhaps we could even get statements from some of the favorable Indian ministers in the government. Just like this Home Minister and Tarun Kanti Ghosh in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: That would be very weighty. Prabhupāda: Yes. So do like that, that "This is genuine. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine cultural and religious movement." This should be taken from all prominent persons and sent there. And the copies of the standing order for all the universities. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Hari-śauri: The order forms. Prabhupāda: Original orders, that should be copied and sent. This arrangement, ask them all over India. And besides that, we have recently got a testimony of one university authorities, just like one Goswami from Calcutta University, and many others they have got. These copies should be sent immediately to. We can approach even the Chief Justice of Allahabad High Court. He came here. The minister here, the Governor of Punjab, he came to see me, the Governor . . . Hari-śauri: Andhra Pradesh government also. Prabhupāda: Eh? Andhra Pradesh, chief minister. Hari-śauri: Minister of Endowments. Prabhupāda: Minister Endowments. Collect all these and send it that, "This is a genuine movement because it is great cultural movement. Therefore Swami Bhaktivedanta wanted to give it to Europe, who are in the darkness." So anyway, now they are feeling the action of the medicine. Haṁsadūta: (laughs) Yeah. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) So many big, big signboards, "Kṛṣṇa is coming." "Here is Kṛṣṇa." (sounds of pages being turned) "Here is Kṛṣṇa." Hari-śauri: Yeah, every heading has a "Kṛṣṇa" written. Prabhupāda: "Here is Kṛṣṇa." That I . . . that is our trap. Haṁsadūta: Yes, the subject matter . . . Prabhupāda: That will . . . that will help us in selling Kṛṣṇa books. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: "What is this nonsense Kṛṣṇa? Let us see." (chuckles) It is not in our disfavor, it is in favor. But still we have to defend. So as I suggested, you collect. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: And from Vṛndāvana you can have signature from anyone. Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hmm. All the Gosvāmīs. Hari-śauri: That Atul Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Atul Kṛṣṇa, yes. Anyone will sign for Kṛṣṇa: "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is genuine India cultural religious movement." They have got doubt, "Whether it is bona fide religion?" Yes, it is. Hari-śauri: Well, you see the process of chanting, it is not common practice, and they think it is a kind of inducement. Prabhupāda: It is kind of brainwash process. Haṁsadūta: It is. (laughs) Hari-śauri: Cleansing. Prabhupāda: Brainwash? No, it is heart wash. (laughter) We can send this, "It is not brainwash, but it is heart wash." Of course, brain and heart practically same. Hari-śauri: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Mmm. (pause) Prabhupāda: Our temple, where many people come. Our Māyāpur temple, Hyderabad temple . . . it is not only in Europe or America—in India in our temples, so many. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: It is genuine religious cult. You have to send all these people. Now note down and do all these things and send it. I can suggest. (noise in background) Haṁsadūta: It is disturbing. Prabhupāda: There is some commotion all over the world . . . (break) . . . that, "The child . . . our child is lost altogether." Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: But there who go . . . (indistinct) . . . they're not lost. Haṁsadūta: No, no. Prabhupāda: They come back again. But here (chuckles), Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, one who comes, he'll be lost. (laughs) Haṁsadūta: Brainwashed. Prabhupāda: There is no hope of their coming. And Gargamuni's father tried so much to get him back. Then he became hopeless. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He was pet child of his father and mother, and practically they closed their factory and everything. They become . . . they divorced and . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: Collapse. Prabhupāda: Collapse. I sent Gargamuni, "Go and . . ." Haṁsadūta: I remember, he went home for some time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: To try to get into that business. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: He was detected, though, because he wouldn't eat meat. (chuckles) Prabhupāda: No. He tried his best, his father. Then his father, "This child is lost." Haṁsadūta: This term "brainwash," it comes from the Korean war and the Vietnamese war. They would, if they would capture a prisoner, especially if he was an officer, high ranking officer, they had some methods of what they say brainwash to turn his mind so that he would accept the enemy viewpoint. And as this happened to a person it was considered to be very, very . . . Hari-śauri: Great victory for the enemy. Haṁsadūta: Great victory for the enemy. Just like because a high ranking officer in the army was captured by the enemy, then they would brainwash him. They had this, some process . . . Prabhupāda: In Pakistani they kill all brain, in Bangladesh. Anyone who worked in high profession like businessman, they caught and shut down. It was worse to kill. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because everywhere the big men, they guide the nation. Haṁsadūta: Yes. People are very much afraid of this idea of being brainwashed. Hari-śauri: They think that their minds can be changed without them knowing about it, so it scares them. Prabhupāda: For me it is better to remain in Vṛndāvana or die. (laughter) Hmm. Because they may be very envious, "Here is the man who is behind all this." (laughter) Haṁsadūta: Yes. In Germany, this one man, he wrote that this movement is very dangerous, because these boys and girls who have come to this movement, they completely . . . they make themselves completely subservient to the dictation of one man. Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: Whatever the man will say, they will do. Prabhupāda: Charmistic? What is called? Charmistic guru ? He has said. Dr. . . . Hari-śauri: Charismatic. Prabhupāda: Charismatic. (laughs) Yes, what is that charismatic? Haṁsadūta: Charisma means a person who has a very strong attraction; he attracts. Prabhupāda: He has said. Actually our whole movement is going on on this. Everyone is carrying the charismatic, (laughs) all. Hari-śauri: Yeah, they know there's something different about our movement, I mean from any other. Everybody who sees the devotees for the first time, they immediately know these people are completely different from anyone else. Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir , yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23), this is the Vedic principle of our movement. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau . Haṁsadūta: Firm faith. Prabhupāda: To respect and love the spiritual master as God. Therefore it is brainwash. Haṁsadūta: This is the strength of our movement: faith in guru and śāstra . Prabhupāda: And everyone is writing. Let them write that, so they see that, "Why this one man is so respectfully accepted? It is brainwash." Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: They may sometimes give me trouble. Haṁsadūta: Yes, generally it happens like that. If someone becomes very prominent, then they want to remove him. This is the tendency in the world. Hari-śauri: Yeah, because the demons, they think anyone who will allow themselves to become the servant of someone else, then they think he has got very weak character. Then they accuse the person who is in charge of manipulating that person. Prabhupāda: Just like there are so many men now, they are against this Sai Baba. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Sai Baba is actually doing that brainwash. But they think of me also like that. Haṁsadūta: Yes, because people cannot discriminate. They have no power to discriminate. They group us with all these other bogus people. Prabhupāda: But that happened when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was being praised by the Nawab. They were asking about Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "What is the position of this man that so many people are following Him?" So Sanātana Goswami, who was very bright, took it as a warning and asked Caitanya Mahāprabhu that "You leave this place as soon as possible." Haṁsadūta: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was not afraid, but He, as usual, He left that place. But Sanātana Goswami, at that time minister . . . Haṁsadūta: He could understand. Prabhupāda: He took advice, the Nawab was so serious about Him. A Muhammadan may do something. So he said: "It is not good to stay here. You should go away." They decided that, "We shall go now with Him, but in the meantime let Him go." Because there were parts of India, Muhammadan influence, especially Bengal was Muhammadan kingdom. So this was warning. Then he told the Nawab that, "He is a beggar. Why do you think of Him as serious man? He is beggar. Some people follow Him, not many." So he said: "Don't try to mislead me. I know. He's not beggar, He's God. Otherwise how so many people are following Him?" The Nawab, he said that. Haṁsadūta: Huh. Prabhupāda: "He's not ordinary man. Don't say that He's beggar," he said. (laughs) Nobody follows a beggar like that, that is it. After all, he was king, he had some brain. (laughs) So he wanted to brainwash, "Don't think of Him very seriously. A beggar. Some people, sentimental." "No, don't say like that. A beggar is never followed by so many men." Haṁsadūta: The same thing happened to Jesus. Because so many people would follow him, the government became very . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That, what do you call it? Crucified him? Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He was becoming very popular. So . . . Haṁsadūta: And at least according to Bible, it appeared that the Jewish priests, they went to the governor or the chief man at that time, and they demanded that he has to do something about this man. Prabhupāda: They have proposed it. That Houston politician, "It is spreading like epidemic." Hmm? (aside) Come. "It is spreading like epidemic. Something must be done." Otherwise one day they'll capture our government." That's a fact. If so many young men join this movement, they will vote. Because your country is democratic. (conchshell blows) Do this what I suggested. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. You see them . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) "What is this pressure?" "Sir is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (laughter) And very bad." Some day somebody says: "No, it is good." (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa pressure. Haṁsadūta: That pressure is being felt. *Prabhupāda: Cap tar porche. Cap porlei bat bolbe . . . ar ta na hole ke kar katha bole? (He is getting pressure. If he gets pressure then he will talk . . . otherwise who cares for whom?) Otherwise, who cares for whom? There are so many things. Here also, they are feeling the pressure, the so*-called svāmīs , yogīs , gosvāmīs , religious groups, Māyāvādīs . . . Hari-śauri: Communists. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: Communists, too. Prabhupāda: Communists. That is our success. Everyone is now feeling the pressure. Cap. (Pressure.) and they are talking Baat, (Talk.) In such a short time, so much money, so much expansion, so many devotees, what is this? That is Kṛṣṇa. Haṁsadūta: Like Vāmanadeva expanded His foot, and He covered the . . . Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Haṁsadūta: First people thought, "Oh these are crazy fellows," and now suddenly they are everywhere. Prabhupāda: Amader onek baro baro sob professional ra boleche sob. (All the professionals said this about us.) Almost all of them, doctor, who have spoken. You have read that? Haṁsadūta: Yes, I have read. All respectable. Prabhupāda: Indian and American, all learned scholars, they have spoken. Where is that statement given? And Dr. Shaligram, he has spoken very nice. Where is that? Dr. Shaligram, Indian Professor, anthropology or something like that. So now better to see the movement from behind, who is that man behind it. (laughter) Haṁsadūta: Now they're looking for you. Prabhupāda: That British government said: "Gandhi in jail is more dangerous than he is free." (laughter) Hari-śauri: These are the statements. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Dr. Shaligram? Hari-śauri: Yeah, Dr. Shaligram Shukla. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Education: he graduated from the University of Cambridge and a B.A. in Classical Languages 1962. Graduated from Cornell University, Ithaca, New York, in Tibetan Linguists and he has a Ph.D. in Linguistics. Prabhupāda: Cambridge? *Hari-śauri: He has several . . . he has several books out. "He was born in India in a traditional brāhmaṇa family. He learned Sanskrit at the age of 10, and his knowledge of the Hindu scriptures written in Sanskrit is very profound. He has committed to memory the entire Bhagavad*-gītā scripture and one fourth of the Ṛg Veda . He himself is a worshiper of Kṛṣṇa. His teachings is a way of life, and he is extremely competent to judge whether the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is authentic and bona fide." Devotee (2): He came to see you in Washington. Prabhupāda: Hmm. *Hari-śauri: So this was his statement, "There are eighteen chapters in Bhagavad*-gītā , eighteen thousand verses in the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam and several hundred verses in the Upaniṣads. These are the literary works which form the foundation of Indian culture and religion. They are all in Sanskrit. His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, has transcribed these texts, has translated them and has explained their essence in English . . . from Sanskrit into English. One is an ancient classical language and the other a foreign language, a difficult task indeed. I have state . . ." (break) *Prabhupāda: Brahman means unlimited happiness. Ananta brahma*-saukyam ananta suddhyed sattvam yasmād suddhyed satya . You purify your existence and you are hankering after happiness, you'll get the unlimited, greatest happiness, yasmād brahma-saukyam anantam . Hmm. Hari-śauri: So Dr. Allen Gerson says: "I am here today as a citizen who dislikes injustice, as a person whose own people, because of their religious beliefs, are being persecuted repeatedly, and as a scientist who knows how ignorance can turn the normal rationality of people into blind hatred." He's Jewish. "As a citizen I can see a great injustice perpetrated here. Several people, all of legal age, have chosen a lifestyle which, because it differs in form from our lifestyle, has been viewed by their families as unacceptable. These families, with honest but misguided intentions, have had their children removed from the Hare Kṛṣṇa temple and have attempted to reprogram them to the behavior and attitudes of society at large. The reprogramming obviously did not work, and their children returned to the movement, thus angering and frustrating their parents. Not being able to understand the wishes of their children, or their behavior, or their motivation for returning, and needing to blame someone, they effected through devious means to have two members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." Prabhupāda: He has used very nice strong words. *Hari-śauri: Hmm. "They effected through devious means to have two members of the New York Hare Kṛṣṇa centers to be arrested. Therein lies the inception of the injustice. To compound it, a judge and a grand jury agreed with their charges of unlawful imprisonment and brainwashing—a charge which is unheard of to my knowledge in civil legal proceedings—and ordered the devotees to be jailed. As a citizen I am appalled by the over*-reaction, the lack of understanding and the hate that finds wrongdoing not only by the people that make the charges, but by the court as well." Haṁsadūta: He says the same thing. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: That this charge is unheard of in the legal history, brainwashing and . . . what was it? Brainwashing what? Hari-śauri: Brainwashing. Haṁsadūta: That there was never such a charge in the history of law, someone who's been brainwashed. Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "As a person whose own people have been persecuted for their own beliefs, I can sympathize with any . . ." Prabhupāda: You can charge anyone, brainwashing. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Hari-śauri: That means anybody who does anything is being brainwashed . . . (indistinct) . . . brainwashing. (continues reading) "The fault of this religion differs from our . . ." Prabhupāda: Mind control. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: These are charges? (laughter) "I'm controlling your mind," charges. No, you are controlling my mind. These are the charges. (chuckles) He's controlling his mind. (laughter) Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "The fault of this religion differs from our Western thought. Throughout history the group tried to find God through beliefs other than those which were held by the majority, and if those beliefs were very different from the majority's, such beliefs were almost always . . ." Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . their arguments so strong. Devotee: Unbeatable debaters. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Yeah, and their theories were that because . . . because they are . . . they have accepted Your Divine Grace as the absolute authority, that they will do anything that you say, and therefore these people are very dangerous. They don't care for anything. They're not interested in the normal standards and goals . . . Prabhupāda: Charmistic, charmistic . . . what is that? Haṁsadūta: Charismatic. Hari-śauri: Charismatic. Haṁsadūta: Charismatic. There is . . . they usually use this word to describe a person who attracts people, but no one can understand why. Prabhupāda: Therefore they cannot explain: brainwash, mind control, charismatic, like that they use. Hari-śauri: Yeah, he says that here, because of their own ignorance then they find fault. He goes on, "From this misunderstanding came fear, then hatred, and from hatred grew injustices and often atrocities. An injustice is now being perpetrated through ignorance. Are atrocities far off? This may sound like an overstatement, but for those who say: 'It can't happen here,' it already has, such as to the American Indians and to our people, Japanese descendant. The time to stop such action is at the beginning, now. The way to stop it is to replace ignorance with knowledge, and hatred with understanding. Sometimes people stand off at a distance and look at another person's belief and laugh at them or fear them. But as they get closer, they may come to understand how similar the observer's beliefs may be to their own beliefs. As a scientist, a psychologist, I have tried to learn about and understand the Hare Kṛṣṇa people. For nearly a year I have spent hours each week talking with, reading about, and testing members of the movement. I have been to their temples in this country and in Europe. I have eaten in their homes and I have been to their children's schools. What I have found is a group of people trying to find God and live as close to the way that He would like them to live. There is no place in their lives for immorality, for cruelty to other people or animals, for artificial stimulants or harmful chemicals such as alcohol, drugs or tobacco. At first glance their approach to God may seem alien to us, with their different dress, the incense and the many statues and their unique ceremonies, but a closer look reveals similarities to our religious practices that are just the same. In Catholicism we find the holy water, chanting on the rosary, statues of saints and incense. And in Judaism we find the blowing of the shofar." Prabhupāda: And they say the cow's urine, they are forcing to eat. (laughter) Eta holo pancamrta te, gow mutro dite hoy. Seta heading dicche ye, (In pancamrita you have to mix cow's urine, so they made a headline of it) . . . that they are forcing the devotees to drink cow's urine. (laughter) These are the charges: brainwash, mind control, forcing cow's urine to drink. (laughter) How clever they are to find out some fictitious faults. Haṁsadūta: You see, you see they have . . . they put these two boys in a mental institution. Yes. When they can't . . . this is what happens in these countries. When they can't find any legal point, they can put the person into a mental institution to be examined. The premise is that if we find that a person is drinking cow's urine, we may think he must be crazy, because we have never heard of such a thing. So in this way they can . . . Devotee (2): Commit them. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, they commit them . . . Devotee (2): Forcibly they just put them into a mental institution where they're observed. *Hari-śauri: Where they . . . that observation, so*-called observation, means that they give them all kinds of drugs which make them very dopey, and then they influence them to try to become normal again, what they think is normal. Sometimes they give them electric shocks, which leaves them . . . Prabhupāda: In the lunatic asylum. Hari-śauri: Yeah, which leaves them in a very shocked condition, and then they, what they call reprogram them. That means they brainwash them back into another way, to another style of life, like that. Guest: Eirakam! Prabhupada! (They like this Prabhupāda.) Prabhupāda: Kare ekhane, Ranchi te kare. (Yes, they like this in Ranchi.) *Hari-śauri: So it goes on, (continues reading) "In Judaism we find the blowing of the shofar, or ram's horn, and in the Orthodox synagogue there is separation of men and women. Differences of dress are expressed amongst Orthodox Jews and amongst various Christian orders. Our own Pilgrim ancestors differed in dress from the Popish gentry of their time. I have studied and tested the Hare Kṛṣṇa people and have not found them to be weird or insane, only different from the mainstream. Like any other evangelical or proselytizing religion, their converts could only become converts if they choose to believe. For example, no one can drag a person to a Baptist Church and brainwash him into taking God into his heart. He has to want to accept willingly. No one is ever held against their will by the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. I have never seen it, nor have my colleagues ever seen it. In examining the various members of this religion, I have not found one who appears to be brainwashed or dopey*-like. In fact their mental health and normality astounds me. If you cannot accept Kṛṣṇa, God, they will sympathize with you and hope that you will eventually find Him and will wish you well as you go on your way. There have been devotees who have left the movement and have said negative things about it, but the sour grapes syndrome is not unusual for dropouts anyway. I wonder how many West Point dropouts vilify the Army, or how many seminary dropouts leave and disdain their religion? After a rational person spends time with the Hare Kṛṣṇa people and learns to understand them, he could never believe them to be guilty of the charges which have been made here in New York recently." Prabhupāda: That's all right, positive. Hari-śauri: And then this is Dr. Stillson Judah. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: He's a graduate from University of Washington, majoring in Oriental Studies, graduate from University of California with a Ph.D in Sanskrit and Indian Languages, and he received an honorary degree from Chapman College, Southern California. And he has various posts as professor of history of religion, etc . . . Prabhupāda: He has written about us big book. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Big book. Bring that, bring that book. After five years' scrutinizingly studying, statistics, graphics. And he has put my picture in it. Haṁsadūta: Looks like your book. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: O ki bolche sunun. (Listen to what he has to say.) Hari-śauri: Dr. Stillson Judah says: "The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, and more formally the International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, ISKCON, is a Western representation of an important Hindu sect, Vaiṣṇavism . . ." Prabhupāda: He says: "Important Hindu sect." How they can say whether it is a genuine? Important. Not only genuine but important, Vaiṣṇavism. *Hari-śauri: Hmm. (continues reading) ". . . whose worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, in one of His many forms is one of the most important religions of India. The American devotees of ISKCON worship Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Being, the highest Personality of Godhead, whose worship, according to the archaeological and epigraphic evidence, is pre*-Christian in origin, as found in India's early sacred texts, the Ṛg Veda , Atharva Veda , etc. The detailed history of Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is found in the religious text of the Bhāgavata Purāṇa , and the philosophical basis of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is found in India's most sacred book, the Bhagavad-gītā . These sacred texts and others have been translated and commented upon by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda and are being studied today in many major universities across the United States. The particular form of Vaisnavism of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement dates from Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, one of India's saints born in 1486 A.D. in Nadia, India. His immediate followers organized this philosophy in a number of Sanskrit texts, and His religious practices, such as chanting and dancing, are most authentically represented in America by the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees according to this tradition. Lord Caitanya, worshiped as the last incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, initiated a disciplic succession. In the mid nineteenth century, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura appeared in this spiritual lineage. Soon afterwards, his son Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, became the spiritual master of India's Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, and his most prominent student was Śrīla Prabhupāda. It was at Bhaktisiddhānta's command that Śrīla Prabhupāda later came to America to bring the teachings and practices of Caitanya to the West. My study of these American devotees, which I have pursued since 1968, was published in my book, Hare Krishna and the Counterculture, published by John Wiley and Sons in 1974, New York. The sociological data, revealed through a detailed questionnaire and many hours of taped interviews, indicates that many of the devotees had been influenced by the hippie culture of the 1960s. However, after they joined the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, their lives became completely changed from a life of drugs, illicit sex and violence to one of dedication to a spiritual discipline and morality and to helping others in their search for happiness. In this period of rapid social and cultural change . . ." Prabhupāda: This is the fact, in many cases. So many drunkards, so many violence . . . that . . . (name withheld) Haṁsadūta: (name withheld) Prabhupāda: Big drunkard. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: (name withheld) Hmm. Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "In this period of rapid social and cultural change, this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is giving many of our youths new meaning to their lives, without which many would have remained alienated, disenchanted, irresponsible citizens." This is a letter that was written by one devotee, Śravaṇānanda dāsa, by his mother. Śravaṇānanda is here in India. Shall I read this? Prabhupāda: Can read it, yes. Hari-śauri: My son Daniel, Śravaṇānanda dāsa, entered the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement almost five years ago. The only request that he made of me and my husband was that we read about the Hare Kṛṣṇa philosophy and try to understand his new way of life. My husband and I have read everything we could find about the movement and the philosophy. We have visited the Hare Kṛṣṇa centers in Philadelphia and New York frequently, always speaking to the devotees and having our questions answered. Evidently these youths feel a revulsion towards the sense gratification of forbidden . . . permissive values of our society. When I see how happy the devotees are . . ." Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta, Haṁsadūta? Hari-śauri: Haṁsadūta? Prabhupāda: The Ceylon is an educated, and if they are receiving, why not open a branch? Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "He recently returned home after almost three years in India. My husband and I could see the awareness and maturity in him gained from his experiences in working with the Indian people. He learned firsthand about a different culture, and it certainly has enriched his life. In our minds we can compare our son's life to the life of a Catholic monk or a religious Jew of the Hasidic sect. Do I think that my son is brainwashed? I can best answer this by answering the question, is our whole society not being brainwashed daily by the advertisement media—liquor, smoking, pornographic movies and literature? And which is worse? And what about the children who are being educated by the violence and killing on T.V.? I prefer that my son is devoting his life to the love of God and the service of humanity, a rare endeavor in this age. Since I know that my son has voluntarily chosen the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement to exercise these rights, and that he can leave it whenever he wishes, I cannot see how the term 'brainwashing' can be applicable to this movement. I sincerely believe from my contacts with many devotees that they are happy and have found fulfillment by loving and serving Lord Kṛṣṇa, God. This may not be my wish for my life, but my son has chosen it for his, and I wholeheartedly respect it." Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Guest: Eibar, apnar ki ektu bhalo lagche? (Is your health okay now?) Prabhupāda: Kalker ceye bhalo. Ekhane ekta (Better than yesterday. Here one) . . . (indistinct) Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Jela oi Nadiai, Yekhane Pagla Babar ashram hoyeche na! (District is Nadia, where the Pagla Baba's ashrama is.) Guest: Hya, hya, hya. (Yes, yes, yes.) Prabhupāda: Oikhane. (There.) Guest: Ami giyechilam. Sekhane ektu anyarakam jinis patra ache. (I went there. Some other types of things present there.) *Prabhupāda: Hmm, go*-sala ache, goru ekta ache. (a cowshed is there, and a cow as well.) Guest: Goru ekta! (A cow.) *Prabhupāda: Hya, bais bachor pac cha*-mas . . . (Yes not too old, only 22 years and 5 to 6 months . . .) Guest: (indistinct) . . . mandirer janye, utpadan er janye. (providing for the temple.) Prabhupāda: Manage korechi eikhane, jayga to gelei paoa yay. (Wherever we will go we can get a place, we have to manage here.) Guest: (indistinct) . . . sambhabana, erom hoyar ucit o. (possibility, and that must be done.) *Prabhupāda: Choto*-khato onek boi beriyeche amader samparke. (There are many small books published about us.) *Guest: Hm, choto*-khato. (small books.) Prabhupāda: Ar er boi to . . . (And this book is . . .) (indistinct) . . . (end) Prabhupāda: . . . I want to do something in India. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, if you can arrange. Now I am purchasing car. I have given money to Gargamuni. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: So one car here in Delhi side, one in Calcutta side, one in . . . (indistinct) . . . for my going. And he is a good driver, he will drive. Eh? I do not know, but he said. (laughter) Hari-śauri: (indistinct) . . . I don't know about in India. Different thing altogether. Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta is also a good driver. Haṁsadūta: I am good for nothing. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Driver we'll get, there is no . . . so I want to preach little in the village. So for that purpose, in the big bus like that, we shall go with our tents, and we camp in a place where there is water, and begin our preaching. And Hindi books we are getting. In this way let me try in India, in the village, not in the city. Devotee: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: For us there is no problem, Prabhupāda, but it may be difficult for Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: No, what is difficult? (laughter) But I want to do something for India in the village. So that I . . . that, we are getting lands, making one center, we can go here and there, not continually. Suppose here is a center, we go sometimes this side, sometimes this side, sometimes come back again. Haṁsadūta: Um hmm. Hari-śauri: Find one good camping spot. Prabhupāda: Yes. You go early in the morning and do something. If it is favorable . . . just like in Bengal they are doing. Get good reception. You have heard it? Haṁsadūta: Yes, I heard. Prabhupāda: Very good reception. Haṁsadūta: Villagers give the best reception. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: Because they're . . . Prabhupāda: Still. Haṁsadūta: They're still faithful to culture. Hari-śauri: Unless we get the farm, this farming scheme set up within the next . . . Prabhupāda: We are getting so many. Hari-śauri: We're getting the farms, but we haven't got the management, so . . . Prabhupāda: Management, that is in your hands. You have to . . . who will give you management? You have to manage local—local men. Bon Mahārāja was failure that he could not get the local men. But I did not try to bring men from India and preach in England or America. Akṣayānanda: Hmm. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? The British Empire was established on management. They did not bring men from England. Few managers, that's all. That is called management. One man can control hundreds and thousands of men, and that is management. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Locally attracted. These Britishers came here, they introduced this zamindarī system. Haṁsadūta: The what? Prabhupāda: Zamindarī system. Haṁsadūta: Zamindar . Prabhupāda: Landlord. Haṁsadūta: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So any third*-class man, if he's given some land, naturally he will be very much pleased. They created that aristocracy. So he selected some men that, "You give me four annas per bīghā , and whatever you can collect, that is your." That is the old system in India, zamindarī system. So collector, collector, the local collector, he appointed somebody. They used to give one lease that, "You give government four annas per bīghā , and whatever you can collect, that is your business." So that created an aristocratic society, and they all supported Britishers, because they're obliged. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly in business also, they appointed brokers that, "I am bringing a cloth from Manchester, if you can sell you'll get so much commission." So without any investment . . . Haṁsadūta: They were in business. Prabhupāda: A broker club business. So the businessmen, the zamindars , and gradually they started their factories, railways—in this way they started. And they are big politicians, so it is their management. And they failed when things were mismanaged. First of all they created friendship, and later on when they were in power, they created enmity. Then it is failed. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: First of all friendship, and that established them. And then they began to create enmity, Hindus against Muslim, Muslim . . . they wanted to stay. When they forgot this idea that if they wanted to stay for the benefit of the people, nobody could drive them away. But their policy was for the benefit of the English people. Therefore they failed. Lord Curzon, he says a statement that, "If you want to stay in India, rule India for the benefit of Indian people. You can keep control over India. They are fond of kings, so one member of the royal family can become king here, and they'll earn respect and honor, these Indian people. But rule for their benefit. Then British Empire will stay." Very good advice, but his advice was not taken. You have seen Lord Curzon's statue near the . . . in front of the Victoria Memorial Hall? Haṁsadūta: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: He was a very good governor*-general. Many gentlemen came, they ruled very conscientiously, and the last one, that rascal Chelmsford (chuckles), he created havoc. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: I saw in London . . . near London there is a village, Chelmsford, and he is Lord Chelmsford. We thought Chelmsford, the big state. (laughter) We were under the impression Thames River is four times bigger than Ganges, and (laughter) it is a canal. When I saw it, it is nothing but a canal. But they advertise this river, very big river. And underneath the water, men are going, and upper and wonderful. Big Ben, that Big Ben advertisement. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Parliament. All photograph (laughter) actually. Downing Street, 10 Downing Street, Prime Minister's office and so on. And actually it's all (chuckles) no importance. Parliament, big, big advertisement. People are still going, they are paying fees to see. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Now that is their income. Hari-śauri: Yeah, tourism is their biggest source of income, now. Prabhupāda: It is always cloudy. People are going to see the Westminster Abbey and Parliament. Haṁsadūta: The whole tourist industry runs on propaganda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: When you get there, there is nothing to see. Prabhupāda: In Parliament they have got old records bound up, almirah. You have seen? What it will do now? Speech of such and such person, speech of . . . (indistinct) (long pause) Prabhupāda: What they . . . why this water is? Hari-śauri: Well, they are watering the garden. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Were you thinking of any particular time when you wanted to do this village program? Prabhupāda: Hmm. I have nowhere experience. Hari-śauri: Haṁsadūta Mahārāja has traveled around . . . Haṁsadūta: You can do it from here, even. You can start track from Vṛndāvana. (car door slams) Prabhupāda: I think some car has come? Akṣayānanda: Maybe that's Bhīma. I'll check. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Maybe you could do it from Bengal, from Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Do the villages there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Because . . . Haṁsadūta: Here the weather is already getting cold. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: And in Hyderabad the peoples don't speak Hindi. They speak Telugu.. Hari-śauri: Bengal seems like the best place, because right now at least the weather is really nice. And Gargamuni's men have a lot of experience there, Śatadhanya and Jayapatāka. They know all the villages. Could do some good programs. Prabhupāda: This blood pressure is troubling. (break) They are chanting, "Say Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) They're taking, "Mind control." Haṁsadūta: Yeah, mind control. Prabhupāda: Ordinarily they cannot charge anything, mind control, brainwash—subtle thing. Just like I . . . "I am sick." "How you are feeling?" "I am feeling some pain in the belly." Who is going to see? (laughter) (makes groaning noise of pain) Who can say? It is like that. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: If you say that, "I am feeling some pain in this brain" or in there, who is going to see? Haṁsadūta: Yeah, who can prove it? Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to believe me, that's all. Haṁsadūta: I noticed in several of the articles, though, they mentioned that this District Attorney is now going to expand his investigation to see where the money goes. This is what they're really interested in. And when they see . . . what will happen is, when they see that some of the devotees collecting three, four hundred dollars on the street, then they will print this in the newspaper, and in this way . . . Prabhupāda: But they collect money by selling book. Haṁsadūta: I know, but people don't understand this. They simply see that, "Oh, these are astronomical sums of money being collected. So what is being done with this money by people who are just chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? What do they do with it?" Then, "Oh, they have bought this big building in New York. They are doing . . . spending money like this, like that." Ultimately this is what it always come to—money. They want to see what is happening with the money. Prabhupāda: And similarly here also, "Where they are getting money?" Haṁsadūta: Yeah, because wherever there is money transaction, the government wants to take some. They feel, "Well, we should have some of this money for ourselves, also." Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: So this may be a problem in this case. The thing about brainwashing is not at all important. The important thing is if they look into our financial . . . Prabhupāda: That is our BBT Trust . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . activities. Prabhupāda: That by the sales of . . . sales proceeds, we fifty percent for printing book and fifty percent for expanding, temples. Haṁsadūta: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is religion. That is clearly written there. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So how they can check it? We are selling books. Haṁsadūta: I don't think that in . . . in the end they will not be able to do anything, but for some time they can give us some trouble, harass us. Prabhupāda: So we have got already experience what it is to be done. Suggest. Haṁsadūta: Well, we have to make a presentation of our movement properly, just like Tamāla suggested in the letter. Prominent persons, they have to speak on our behalf. And of course, the books must be in order. Prabhupāda: Another thing, that all the Indians in Europe and America, they should sign that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine religious. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Similarly here also, all the Kṛṣṇa conscious persons, especially here in Vṛndāvana, all the Gosvāmīs, they should be approached that this is the genuine Indian culture. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Hari-śauri: Perhaps we could even get statements from some of the favorable Indian ministers in the government. Just like this Home Minister and Tarun Kanti Ghosh in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: That would be very weighty. Prabhupāda: Yes. So do like that, that "This is genuine. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine cultural and religious movement." This should be taken from all prominent persons and sent there. And the copies of the standing order for all the universities. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Hari-śauri: The order forms. Prabhupāda: Original orders, that should be copied and sent. This arrangement, ask them all over India. And besides that, we have recently got a testimony of one university authorities, just like one Goswami from Calcutta University, and many others they have got. These copies should be sent immediately to. We can approach even the Chief Justice of Allahabad High Court. He came here. The minister here, the Governor of Punjab, he came to see me, the Governor . . . Hari-śauri: Andhra Pradesh government also. Prabhupāda: Eh? Andhra Pradesh, chief minister. Hari-śauri: Minister of Endowments. Prabhupāda: Minister Endowments. Collect all these and send it that, "This is a genuine movement because it is great cultural movement. Therefore Swami Bhaktivedanta wanted to give it to Europe, who are in the darkness." So anyway, now they are feeling the action of the medicine. Haṁsadūta: (laughs) Yeah. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) So many big, big signboards, "Kṛṣṇa is coming." "Here is Kṛṣṇa." (sounds of pages being turned) "Here is Kṛṣṇa." Hari-śauri: Yeah, every heading has a "Kṛṣṇa" written. Prabhupāda: "Here is Kṛṣṇa." That I . . . that is our trap. Haṁsadūta: Yes, the subject matter . . . Prabhupāda: That will . . . that will help us in selling Kṛṣṇa books. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: "What is this nonsense Kṛṣṇa? Let us see." (chuckles) It is not in our disfavor, it is in favor. But still we have to defend. So as I suggested, you collect. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: And from Vṛndāvana you can have signature from anyone. Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hmm. All the Gosvāmīs. Hari-śauri: That Atul Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Atul Kṛṣṇa, yes. Anyone will sign for Kṛṣṇa: "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is genuine India cultural religious movement." They have got doubt, "Whether it is bona fide religion?" Yes, it is. Hari-śauri: Well, you see the process of chanting, it is not common practice, and they think it is a kind of inducement. Prabhupāda: It is kind of brainwash process. Haṁsadūta: It is. (laughs) Hari-śauri: Cleansing. Prabhupāda: Brainwash? No, it is heart wash. (laughter) We can send this, "It is not brainwash, but it is heart wash." Of course, brain and heart practically same. Hari-śauri: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Mmm. (pause) Prabhupāda: Our temple, where many people come. Our Māyāpur temple, Hyderabad temple . . . it is not only in Europe or America—in India in our temples, so many. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: It is genuine religious cult. You have to send all these people. Now note down and do all these things and send it. I can suggest. (noise in background) Haṁsadūta: It is disturbing. Prabhupāda: There is some commotion all over the world . . . (break) . . . that, "The child . . . our child is lost altogether." Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: But there who go . . . (indistinct) . . . they're not lost. Haṁsadūta: No, no. Prabhupāda: They come back again. But here (chuckles), Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, one who comes, he'll be lost. (laughs) Haṁsadūta: Brainwashed. Prabhupāda: There is no hope of their coming. And Gargamuni's father tried so much to get him back. Then he became hopeless. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He was pet child of his father and mother, and practically they closed their factory and everything. They become . . . they divorced and . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: Collapse. Prabhupāda: Collapse. I sent Gargamuni, "Go and . . ." Haṁsadūta: I remember, he went home for some time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: To try to get into that business. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: He was detected, though, because he wouldn't eat meat. (chuckles) Prabhupāda: No. He tried his best, his father. Then his father, "This child is lost." Haṁsadūta: This term "brainwash," it comes from the Korean war and the Vietnamese war. They would, if they would capture a prisoner, especially if he was an officer, high ranking officer, they had some methods of what they say brainwash to turn his mind so that he would accept the enemy viewpoint. And as this happened to a person it was considered to be very, very . . . Hari-śauri: Great victory for the enemy. Haṁsadūta: Great victory for the enemy. Just like because a high ranking officer in the army was captured by the enemy, then they would brainwash him. They had this, some process . . . Prabhupāda: In Pakistani they kill all brain, in Bangladesh. Anyone who worked in high profession like businessman, they caught and shut down. It was worse to kill. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because everywhere the big men, they guide the nation. Haṁsadūta: Yes. People are very much afraid of this idea of being brainwashed. Hari-śauri: They think that their minds can be changed without them knowing about it, so it scares them. Prabhupāda: For me it is better to remain in Vṛndāvana or die. (laughter) Hmm. Because they may be very envious, "Here is the man who is behind all this." (laughter) Haṁsadūta: Yes. In Germany, this one man, he wrote that this movement is very dangerous, because these boys and girls who have come to this movement, they completely . . . they make themselves completely subservient to the dictation of one man. Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: Whatever the man will say, they will do. Prabhupāda: Charmistic? What is called? Charmistic guru ? He has said. Dr. . . . Hari-śauri: Charismatic. Prabhupāda: Charismatic. (laughs) Yes, what is that charismatic? Haṁsadūta: Charisma means a person who has a very strong attraction; he attracts. Prabhupāda: He has said. Actually our whole movement is going on on this. Everyone is carrying the charismatic, (laughs) all. Hari-śauri: Yeah, they know there's something different about our movement, I mean from any other. Everybody who sees the devotees for the first time, they immediately know these people are completely different from anyone else. Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir , yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23), this is the Vedic principle of our movement. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau . Haṁsadūta: Firm faith. Prabhupāda: To respect and love the spiritual master as God. Therefore it is brainwash. Haṁsadūta: This is the strength of our movement: faith in guru and śāstra . Prabhupāda: And everyone is writing. Let them write that, so they see that, "Why this one man is so respectfully accepted? It is brainwash." Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: They may sometimes give me trouble. Haṁsadūta: Yes, generally it happens like that. If someone becomes very prominent, then they want to remove him. This is the tendency in the world. Hari-śauri: Yeah, because the demons, they think anyone who will allow themselves to become the servant of someone else, then they think he has got very weak character. Then they accuse the person who is in charge of manipulating that person. Prabhupāda: Just like there are so many men now, they are against this Sai Baba. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Sai Baba is actually doing that brainwash. But they think of me also like that. Haṁsadūta: Yes, because people cannot discriminate. They have no power to discriminate. They group us with all these other bogus people. Prabhupāda: But that happened when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was being praised by the Nawab. They were asking about Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "What is the position of this man that so many people are following Him?" So Sanātana Goswami, who was very bright, took it as a warning and asked Caitanya Mahāprabhu that "You leave this place as soon as possible." Haṁsadūta: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was not afraid, but He, as usual, He left that place. But Sanātana Goswami, at that time minister . . . Haṁsadūta: He could understand. Prabhupāda: He took advice, the Nawab was so serious about Him. A Muhammadan may do something. So he said: "It is not good to stay here. You should go away." They decided that, "We shall go now with Him, but in the meantime let Him go." Because there were parts of India, Muhammadan influence, especially Bengal was Muhammadan kingdom. So this was warning. Then he told the Nawab that, "He is a beggar. Why do you think of Him as serious man? He is beggar. Some people follow Him, not many." So he said: "Don't try to mislead me. I know. He's not beggar, He's God. Otherwise how so many people are following Him?" The Nawab, he said that. Haṁsadūta: Huh. Prabhupāda: "He's not ordinary man. Don't say that He's beggar," he said. (laughs) Nobody follows a beggar like that, that is it. After all, he was king, he had some brain. (laughs) So he wanted to brainwash, "Don't think of Him very seriously. A beggar. Some people, sentimental." "No, don't say like that. A beggar is never followed by so many men." Haṁsadūta: The same thing happened to Jesus. Because so many people would follow him, the government became very . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That, what do you call it? Crucified him? Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He was becoming very popular. So . . . Haṁsadūta: And at least according to Bible, it appeared that the Jewish priests, they went to the governor or the chief man at that time, and they demanded that he has to do something about this man. Prabhupāda: They have proposed it. That Houston politician, "It is spreading like epidemic." Hmm? (aside) Come. "It is spreading like epidemic. Something must be done." Otherwise one day they'll capture our government." That's a fact. If so many young men join this movement, they will vote. Because your country is democratic. (conchshell blows) Do this what I suggested. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. You see them . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) "What is this pressure?" "Sir is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (laughter) And very bad." Some day somebody says: "No, it is good." (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa pressure. Haṁsadūta: That pressure is being felt. *Prabhupāda: Cap tar porche. Cap porlei bat bolbe . . . ar ta na hole ke kar katha bole? (He is getting pressure. If he gets pressure then he will talk . . . otherwise who cares for whom?) Otherwise, who cares for whom? There are so many things. Here also, they are feeling the pressure, the so*-called svāmīs , yogīs , gosvāmīs , religious groups, Māyāvādīs . . . Hari-śauri: Communists. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: Communists, too. Prabhupāda: Communists. That is our success. Everyone is now feeling the pressure. Cap. (Pressure.) and they are talking Baat, (Talk.) In such a short time, so much money, so much expansion, so many devotees, what is this? That is Kṛṣṇa. Haṁsadūta: Like Vāmanadeva expanded His foot, and He covered the . . . Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Haṁsadūta: First people thought, "Oh these are crazy fellows," and now suddenly they are everywhere. Prabhupāda: Amader onek baro baro sob professional ra boleche sob. (All the professionals said this about us.) Almost all of them, doctor, who have spoken. You have read that? Haṁsadūta: Yes, I have read. All respectable. Prabhupāda: Indian and American, all learned scholars, they have spoken. Where is that statement given? And Dr. Shaligram, he has spoken very nice. Where is that? Dr. Shaligram, Indian Professor, anthropology or something like that. So now better to see the movement from behind, who is that man behind it. (laughter) Haṁsadūta: Now they're looking for you. Prabhupāda: That British government said: "Gandhi in jail is more dangerous than he is free." (laughter) Hari-śauri: These are the statements. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Dr. Shaligram? Hari-śauri: Yeah, Dr. Shaligram Shukla. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Education: he graduated from the University of Cambridge and a B.A. in Classical Languages 1962. Graduated from Cornell University, Ithaca, New York, in Tibetan Linguists and he has a Ph.D. in Linguistics. Prabhupāda: Cambridge? *Hari-śauri: He has several . . . he has several books out. "He was born in India in a traditional brāhmaṇa family. He learned Sanskrit at the age of 10, and his knowledge of the Hindu scriptures written in Sanskrit is very profound. He has committed to memory the entire Bhagavad*-gītā scripture and one fourth of the Ṛg Veda . He himself is a worshiper of Kṛṣṇa. His teachings is a way of life, and he is extremely competent to judge whether the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is authentic and bona fide." Devotee (2): He came to see you in Washington. Prabhupāda: Hmm. *Hari-śauri: So this was his statement, "There are eighteen chapters in Bhagavad*-gītā , eighteen thousand verses in the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam and several hundred verses in the Upaniṣads. These are the literary works which form the foundation of Indian culture and religion. They are all in Sanskrit. His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, has transcribed these texts, has translated them and has explained their essence in English . . . from Sanskrit into English. One is an ancient classical language and the other a foreign language, a difficult task indeed. I have state . . ." (break) *Prabhupāda: Brahman means unlimited happiness. Ananta brahma*-saukyam ananta suddhyed sattvam yasmād suddhyed satya . You purify your existence and you are hankering after happiness, you'll get the unlimited, greatest happiness, yasmād brahma-saukyam anantam . Hmm. Hari-śauri: So Dr. Allen Gerson says: "I am here today as a citizen who dislikes injustice, as a person whose own people, because of their religious beliefs, are being persecuted repeatedly, and as a scientist who knows how ignorance can turn the normal rationality of people into blind hatred." He's Jewish. "As a citizen I can see a great injustice perpetrated here. Several people, all of legal age, have chosen a lifestyle which, because it differs in form from our lifestyle, has been viewed by their families as unacceptable. These families, with honest but misguided intentions, have had their children removed from the Hare Kṛṣṇa temple and have attempted to reprogram them to the behavior and attitudes of society at large. The reprogramming obviously did not work, and their children returned to the movement, thus angering and frustrating their parents. Not being able to understand the wishes of their children, or their behavior, or their motivation for returning, and needing to blame someone, they effected through devious means to have two members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." Prabhupāda: He has used very nice strong words. *Hari-śauri: Hmm. "They effected through devious means to have two members of the New York Hare Kṛṣṇa centers to be arrested. Therein lies the inception of the injustice. To compound it, a judge and a grand jury agreed with their charges of unlawful imprisonment and brainwashing—a charge which is unheard of to my knowledge in civil legal proceedings—and ordered the devotees to be jailed. As a citizen I am appalled by the over*-reaction, the lack of understanding and the hate that finds wrongdoing not only by the people that make the charges, but by the court as well." Haṁsadūta: He says the same thing. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: That this charge is unheard of in the legal history, brainwashing and . . . what was it? Brainwashing what? Hari-śauri: Brainwashing. Haṁsadūta: That there was never such a charge in the history of law, someone who's been brainwashed. Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "As a person whose own people have been persecuted for their own beliefs, I can sympathize with any . . ." Prabhupāda: You can charge anyone, brainwashing. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Hari-śauri: That means anybody who does anything is being brainwashed . . . (indistinct) . . . brainwashing. (continues reading) "The fault of this religion differs from our . . ." Prabhupāda: Mind control. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: These are charges? (laughter) "I'm controlling your mind," charges. No, you are controlling my mind. These are the charges. (chuckles) He's controlling his mind. (laughter) Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "The fault of this religion differs from our Western thought. Throughout history the group tried to find God through beliefs other than those which were held by the majority, and if those beliefs were very different from the majority's, such beliefs were almost always . . ." Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . their arguments so strong. Devotee: Unbeatable debaters. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Yeah, and their theories were that because . . . because they are . . . they have accepted Your Divine Grace as the absolute authority, that they will do anything that you say, and therefore these people are very dangerous. They don't care for anything. They're not interested in the normal standards and goals . . . Prabhupāda: Charmistic, charmistic . . . what is that? Haṁsadūta: Charismatic. Hari-śauri: Charismatic. Haṁsadūta: Charismatic. There is . . . they usually use this word to describe a person who attracts people, but no one can understand why. Prabhupāda: Therefore they cannot explain: brainwash, mind control, charismatic, like that they use. Hari-śauri: Yeah, he says that here, because of their own ignorance then they find fault. He goes on, "From this misunderstanding came fear, then hatred, and from hatred grew injustices and often atrocities. An injustice is now being perpetrated through ignorance. Are atrocities far off? This may sound like an overstatement, but for those who say: 'It can't happen here,' it already has, such as to the American Indians and to our people, Japanese descendant. The time to stop such action is at the beginning, now. The way to stop it is to replace ignorance with knowledge, and hatred with understanding. Sometimes people stand off at a distance and look at another person's belief and laugh at them or fear them. But as they get closer, they may come to understand how similar the observer's beliefs may be to their own beliefs. As a scientist, a psychologist, I have tried to learn about and understand the Hare Kṛṣṇa people. For nearly a year I have spent hours each week talking with, reading about, and testing members of the movement. I have been to their temples in this country and in Europe. I have eaten in their homes and I have been to their children's schools. What I have found is a group of people trying to find God and live as close to the way that He would like them to live. There is no place in their lives for immorality, for cruelty to other people or animals, for artificial stimulants or harmful chemicals such as alcohol, drugs or tobacco. At first glance their approach to God may seem alien to us, with their different dress, the incense and the many statues and their unique ceremonies, but a closer look reveals similarities to our religious practices that are just the same. In Catholicism we find the holy water, chanting on the rosary, statues of saints and incense. And in Judaism we find the blowing of the shofar." Prabhupāda: And they say the cow's urine, they are forcing to eat. (laughter) Eta holo pancamrta te, gow mutro dite hoy. Seta heading dicche ye, (In pancamrita you have to mix cow's urine, so they made a headline of it) . . . that they are forcing the devotees to drink cow's urine. (laughter) These are the charges: brainwash, mind control, forcing cow's urine to drink. (laughter) How clever they are to find out some fictitious faults. Haṁsadūta: You see, you see they have . . . they put these two boys in a mental institution. Yes. When they can't . . . this is what happens in these countries. When they can't find any legal point, they can put the person into a mental institution to be examined. The premise is that if we find that a person is drinking cow's urine, we may think he must be crazy, because we have never heard of such a thing. So in this way they can . . . Devotee (2): Commit them. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, they commit them . . . Devotee (2): Forcibly they just put them into a mental institution where they're observed. *Hari-śauri: Where they . . . that observation, so*-called observation, means that they give them all kinds of drugs which make them very dopey, and then they influence them to try to become normal again, what they think is normal. Sometimes they give them electric shocks, which leaves them . . . Prabhupāda: In the lunatic asylum. Hari-śauri: Yeah, which leaves them in a very shocked condition, and then they, what they call reprogram them. That means they brainwash them back into another way, to another style of life, like that. Guest: Eirakam! Prabhupada! (They like this Prabhupāda.) Prabhupāda: Kare ekhane, Ranchi te kare. (Yes, they like this in Ranchi.) *Hari-śauri: So it goes on, (continues reading) "In Judaism we find the blowing of the shofar, or ram's horn, and in the Orthodox synagogue there is separation of men and women. Differences of dress are expressed amongst Orthodox Jews and amongst various Christian orders. Our own Pilgrim ancestors differed in dress from the Popish gentry of their time. I have studied and tested the Hare Kṛṣṇa people and have not found them to be weird or insane, only different from the mainstream. Like any other evangelical or proselytizing religion, their converts could only become converts if they choose to believe. For example, no one can drag a person to a Baptist Church and brainwash him into taking God into his heart. He has to want to accept willingly. No one is ever held against their will by the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. I have never seen it, nor have my colleagues ever seen it. In examining the various members of this religion, I have not found one who appears to be brainwashed or dopey*-like. In fact their mental health and normality astounds me. If you cannot accept Kṛṣṇa, God, they will sympathize with you and hope that you will eventually find Him and will wish you well as you go on your way. There have been devotees who have left the movement and have said negative things about it, but the sour grapes syndrome is not unusual for dropouts anyway. I wonder how many West Point dropouts vilify the Army, or how many seminary dropouts leave and disdain their religion? After a rational person spends time with the Hare Kṛṣṇa people and learns to understand them, he could never believe them to be guilty of the charges which have been made here in New York recently." Prabhupāda: That's all right, positive. Hari-śauri: And then this is Dr. Stillson Judah. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: He's a graduate from University of Washington, majoring in Oriental Studies, graduate from University of California with a Ph.D in Sanskrit and Indian Languages, and he received an honorary degree from Chapman College, Southern California. And he has various posts as professor of history of religion, etc . . . Prabhupāda: He has written about us big book. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Big book. Bring that, bring that book. After five years' scrutinizingly studying, statistics, graphics. And he has put my picture in it. Haṁsadūta: Looks like your book. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: O ki bolche sunun. (Listen to what he has to say.) Hari-śauri: Dr. Stillson Judah says: "The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, and more formally the International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, ISKCON, is a Western representation of an important Hindu sect, Vaiṣṇavism . . ." Prabhupāda: He says: "Important Hindu sect." How they can say whether it is a genuine? Important. Not only genuine but important, Vaiṣṇavism. *Hari-śauri: Hmm. (continues reading) ". . . whose worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, in one of His many forms is one of the most important religions of India. The American devotees of ISKCON worship Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Being, the highest Personality of Godhead, whose worship, according to the archaeological and epigraphic evidence, is pre*-Christian in origin, as found in India's early sacred texts, the Ṛg Veda , Atharva Veda , etc. The detailed history of Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is found in the religious text of the Bhāgavata Purāṇa , and the philosophical basis of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is found in India's most sacred book, the Bhagavad-gītā . These sacred texts and others have been translated and commented upon by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda and are being studied today in many major universities across the United States. The particular form of Vaisnavism of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement dates from Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, one of India's saints born in 1486 A.D. in Nadia, India. His immediate followers organized this philosophy in a number of Sanskrit texts, and His religious practices, such as chanting and dancing, are most authentically represented in America by the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees according to this tradition. Lord Caitanya, worshiped as the last incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, initiated a disciplic succession. In the mid nineteenth century, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura appeared in this spiritual lineage. Soon afterwards, his son Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, became the spiritual master of India's Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, and his most prominent student was Śrīla Prabhupāda. It was at Bhaktisiddhānta's command that Śrīla Prabhupāda later came to America to bring the teachings and practices of Caitanya to the West. My study of these American devotees, which I have pursued since 1968, was published in my book, Hare Krishna and the Counterculture, published by John Wiley and Sons in 1974, New York. The sociological data, revealed through a detailed questionnaire and many hours of taped interviews, indicates that many of the devotees had been influenced by the hippie culture of the 1960s. However, after they joined the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, their lives became completely changed from a life of drugs, illicit sex and violence to one of dedication to a spiritual discipline and morality and to helping others in their search for happiness. In this period of rapid social and cultural change . . ." Prabhupāda: This is the fact, in many cases. So many drunkards, so many violence . . . that . . . (name withheld) Haṁsadūta: (name withheld) Prabhupāda: Big drunkard. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: (name withheld) Hmm. Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "In this period of rapid social and cultural change, this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is giving many of our youths new meaning to their lives, without which many would have remained alienated, disenchanted, irresponsible citizens." This is a letter that was written by one devotee, Śravaṇānanda dāsa, by his mother. Śravaṇānanda is here in India. Shall I read this? Prabhupāda: Can read it, yes. Hari-śauri: My son Daniel, Śravaṇānanda dāsa, entered the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement almost five years ago. The only request that he made of me and my husband was that we read about the Hare Kṛṣṇa philosophy and try to understand his new way of life. My husband and I have read everything we could find about the movement and the philosophy. We have visited the Hare Kṛṣṇa centers in Philadelphia and New York frequently, always speaking to the devotees and having our questions answered. Evidently these youths feel a revulsion towards the sense gratification of forbidden . . . permissive values of our society. When I see how happy the devotees are . . ." Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta, Haṁsadūta? Hari-śauri: Haṁsadūta? Prabhupāda: The Ceylon is an educated, and if they are receiving, why not open a branch? Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "He recently returned home after almost three years in India. My husband and I could see the awareness and maturity in him gained from his experiences in working with the Indian people. He learned firsthand about a different culture, and it certainly has enriched his life. In our minds we can compare our son's life to the life of a Catholic monk or a religious Jew of the Hasidic sect. Do I think that my son is brainwashed? I can best answer this by answering the question, is our whole society not being brainwashed daily by the advertisement media—liquor, smoking, pornographic movies and literature? And which is worse? And what about the children who are being educated by the violence and killing on T.V.? I prefer that my son is devoting his life to the love of God and the service of humanity, a rare endeavor in this age. Since I know that my son has voluntarily chosen the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement to exercise these rights, and that he can leave it whenever he wishes, I cannot see how the term 'brainwashing' can be applicable to this movement. I sincerely believe from my contacts with many devotees that they are happy and have found fulfillment by loving and serving Lord Kṛṣṇa, God. This may not be my wish for my life, but my son has chosen it for his, and I wholeheartedly respect it." Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Guest: Eibar, apnar ki ektu bhalo lagche? (Is your health okay now?) Prabhupāda: Kalker ceye bhalo. Ekhane ekta (Better than yesterday. Here one) . . . (indistinct) Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Jela oi Nadiai, Yekhane Pagla Babar ashram hoyeche na! (District is Nadia, where the Pagla Baba's ashrama is.) Guest: Hya, hya, hya. (Yes, yes, yes.) Prabhupāda: Oikhane. (There.) Guest: Ami giyechilam. Sekhane ektu anyarakam jinis patra ache. (I went there. Some other types of things present there.) *Prabhupāda: Hmm, go*-sala ache, goru ekta ache. (a cowshed is there, and a cow as well.) Guest: Goru ekta! (A cow.) *Prabhupāda: Hya, bais bachor pac cha*-mas . . . (Yes not too old, only 22 years and 5 to 6 months . . .) Guest: (indistinct) . . . mandirer janye, utpadan er janye. (providing for the temple.) Prabhupāda: Manage korechi eikhane, jayga to gelei paoa yay. (Wherever we will go we can get a place, we have to manage here.) Guest: (indistinct) . . . sambhabana, erom hoyar ucit o. (possibility, and that must be done.) *Prabhupāda: Choto*-khato onek boi beriyeche amader samparke. (There are many small books published about us.) *Guest: Hm, choto*-khato. (small books.) Prabhupāda: Ar er boi to . . . (And this book is . . .) (indistinct) . . . (end) (Conversation on New York court case) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So a lot of these parents are saying that we should all be . . . we should be investigated. Now they are saying that we are not Hindus, and they are saying that by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the thinking of the brain stops. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So in New York the press is against us. But in Los Angeles it is going in our favor, he said (referring to report by Rāmeśvara). In Los Angeles they had kidnapped the best girl distributor. Now she has come back, but, ah . . . Prabhupāda: So these things will happen. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are, as soon as we become very important, our enemies, they will try to suppress us. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is what they are doing. Prabhupāda: So that is natural. Even Kṛṣṇa was suppressed. Kṛṣṇa could not be suppressed, but the attempt was there, Kamsa. So these things go on, still we have to work. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: If we work sincerely then we'll come out successful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So there are a few things . . . Prabhupāda: We should not be afraid. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara ( BG 8.7). Kṛṣṇa advised Arjuna that "You fight," not that we shall not fight. We shall fight to the best . . . (indistinct) . . . and this is good, they are feeling the pressure of this movement. Otherwise, why they are going to take step? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they, what they do . . . these parents, what they want to do, they want this to be declared illegal. Now they . . . Prabhupāda: Illegal . . . they can, the children can also, those who are our children they can form an association. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But they cannot control us, our independence. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They should form. How the . . .? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But of course, we want to defeat them . . . Prabhupāda: The parents, the parents cannot control their sons and daughters who is above eighteen. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We want to defeat these people legally, because now it's a very big case and every paper in America is covering it. Every paper. Prabhupāda: That means they're feeling pressure. They're feeling pressure. Now we should take proper steps, that's all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They had a big press conference in which Professor Shukla spoke up . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. He has spoken very nicely. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Rāmeśvara said that he got up and he said: "How can . . . you are insulting our religion, saying we are not . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, better that the Indians should combine and they should bring a case against these people. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And then it will be all right. That "This is, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is genuine, and these people are trying to insult us." Bring a defamation case against these persons. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think the best thing is to mobilize all the Indians in America, because every country . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already suggested, that they should take signature from all Indians that "this is genuine Indian cultural movement, and it a great fortune for Indians. They were bereft of their own culture and now we have got this culture again. The Ratha*-yātrā is going on, we are so much enlivened." In this way they should file petition. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like in England they would not let you do the Ratha*-yātrā, the Indians . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. This is discrimination against sect . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Against minority. Prabhupāda: Yes. Against minority. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And no government in the world wants to do that. Prabhupāda: It is against American constitution. So they should file immediately a case. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And America is very sensitive to . . . Prabhupāda: So you note down. You are simply hearing. Note down and inform them. Yes. Ah, it is being recorded, that's all right. So give them this direction. Combine the Indian community. In Toronto and in . . . there are many thousands of Indians, New York, Canada, London. These are very important places. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we can do that. *Prabhupāda: Yes, many thousands and thousands of important Indians, very rich men there are. In London there are very rich Indians. They can form immediately a solid association. They should present that, "This Kṛṣṇa is our God. In every Indian home we observe Kṛṣṇa Janmāṣṭamī." Even though one does not follow Kṛṣṇa cult, still if he is Hindu he follows the Janmāṣṭamī. Inevitably, everywhere. So this Kṛṣṇa cult is genuine, Vedic, based on Bhagavad*-gītā , which was spoken long, long years ago before any religion . . . any religious literature in the world. The Buddha literature or the Christian literature and Jewish literature, they cannot be counted more than two thousand years. A little more than that. But this Kṛṣṇa cult is coming, it is coming from, I have already explained in the Introduction, it is coming from four hundred millions of years ago. But even from historically, it is five thousand years—beyond all religious literature in the world. We have to present this case in the court. And let it be discussed thorough . . . yes, and see our books, compare any religious books with our these books. Present all the opinions of big, big professors how traditional Indian culture is there. You have to fight, organize. Give them hint, this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: How they can defeat us? We have got so solid ground. How they can defeat, these rascals? We consider them simply rascals and fools. And we call them rascals and fools. What do they know of religion? What do they know of God? They know slaughterhouse and killing and illicit sex, and killing the fetus. That's all. What do they know? They are not even civilized. We have come to make them civilized. They should understand. They are not civilized. They do not how to eat even. The first principle of life is eating. They do not know how to eat. We are teaching them how to eat. They simply challenge, like that. When men are uncivilized, they do not how to grow food, they kill animals in the jungle and eat. When they are civilized, they know how to grow food now, and the nice food grains, fruit, flowers, now why should say, "You eat the meat"? The meat*-eating is meant for the most uncivilized persons. That means they do not know even how to eat. They do not know how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex. Nothing. They're having sex like cats and dogs. No marriage—girl's friend, boy's friend, and then illegitimate . . . so many things. They should be exposed. *And there is no harm exposing, in truth. Simply by manufacturing, constructing a big, high skyscraper building, does it mean he is civilized? It is passionate work. They can take credit of a good mistrī, just like so many mistrīs, they construct. I cannot do. Does it mean I am less than him? I could not construct this temple. I have to call some low class, a builder and company, they constructed. Does it meant he is higher in intelligence than me? They are giving credit, "Oh, now they have constructed skyscraper building. They have constructed motorcar, horseless carriage." They are taking credit on this. But this is not civilization. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has given the formula of civilization, three words: mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu . Where is that civilization, to consider every woman as mother? Except one's own married wife, all women, mother. Where is that civilization? That should be; *otherwise there cannot be social regulation. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu para dravyeṣu loṣṭravat : others' property is just like garbage in the street. Nobody touches the garbage. That is civilization. So Mr. Pillai . . . (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . got to do. He wants members of parliament to give . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. That we have already suggested. Immediately. Every member of . . . if Mr . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Krishna Modi. Prabhupāda: . . . Brahmānanda . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Reddy. Prabhupāda: . . . he suggested that this movement should be spread all over the world. Let him write. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He won't give it in writing. Prabhupāda: No. That is his insincerity. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Frankly, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no member of parliament will give it either. I know it, because even when Tejiyas was applying for his citizenship, Krishna Modi would not even give a letter of recommendation because he said this is a Congress Party policy. Prabhupāda: Then what can be done? Everything is nasty. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So this is what we'll do. We'll be starting a . . . Prabhupāda: You can give the names. There are so many members. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We are starting a petition here also. Prabhupāda: Not only petition. You can give the . . . ask what is this . . . (indistinct) . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And also . . . Prabhupāda: If there is . . . now Brahmānanda has at least given this order that they should be given two . . . that they be allowed to stay two years. That letter is there. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I have that letter. That letter says they have come to study Vedic literature. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That letter is there. Also we have a lot of other letters from great . . . Prabhupāda: The Indians should send a petition to the government, that "We want this movement here. We are separated from our culture. A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami has brought this . . ." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They say mobilizing the Indians in America . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . and that's most important thing because . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a most important thing, that you cannot discriminate minority communities. That is against American constitution. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, when this . . . when we had a similar situation in Germany, what we wanted to do is have all our centers in important cities in foreign countries all over the world make a letter and a delegation to visit the United States Embassy in all these places. This will have an effect, because if it's brought, if it comes in this way, international reaction . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, arrange like this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We're going to send . . . Rāmeśvara suggested we send a big petition of telegrams to the American Consulate. Because then American Consulate will transmit these telegrams to the State Department in Washington. We said that if our . . . we would pay for it, but our Life Members will all sign if we send a telegram to the American . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm, Dr. Shaligram taken a leading part? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? Hari-śauri: Dr. Shaligram Shukla. Prabhupāda: Shaligram Shukla. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In America? Yes. Prabhupāda: He is a learned scholar, and he is influential man in educational circles. There are many Indians you'll find, they are . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we can mobilize all the Indians. That's the best process. Prabhupāda: Yes, Indian opinion. I have already given suggestion to. The Indians should come forward. And from here also, similar, if the member . . . (indistinct) . . . know. Respectable Indian businessmen, they should say that, "This Kṛṣṇa cult is very, very old, genuine, and we are so enlightened that Swami Bhaktivedanta has taken this movement to the foreign countries. We are so proud," like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We want to do that. Prabhupāda: And that is a fact. Everyone is feeling proud. Take all signature of the gosvāmīs here, influential, that "This is genuine." Prove there, that it is genuine movement. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And we have letters from Swami Premananda and all the . . . (indistinct) . . . and all these letters from Bombay. I'm shipping all these to Rāmeśvara. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone should join. Now people are taking this cultural movement so seriously, and if our Indian leaders sleep, that is not good. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, I have . . . one boy in Delhi went to the British Embassy High Commission and bought a British paper, and even in the British paper the American court case was covered. Headline was "Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." I have the paper. Even in the British paper it had a prominent display. Normally you would expect . . . Haṁsadūta: Probably be in German papers too . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. In fact you would probably expect that . . . Prabhupāda: British paper. What does it say? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They were covering this court case. They had a nice prominent . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. They have taken it. Now, they are after intelligent person. They are . . . that has been expressed by this gentleman that, "It is going like epidemic." They must expect. That is their feeling, that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading so fast, like epidemic, we must take some step." That is already, they have expressed their feeling. And you said that in Australia, there one man said . . . Hari-śauri: Yes, psychiatrist. Prabhupāda: . . . that if the people take to this movement, then where you stand? He has also expressed. What is that? *Hari-śauri: There's a psychiatrist, after the Sydney City Council are trying to have us banned from the city altogether, and they took us to court, and we didn't contest the case and they lost. And then afterwards they . . . it worked out they spent $10,000 and so much manpower to try to get rid of us, and it didn't work. And then one newspaper man went to a psychiatrist and he asked him, "Can you explain why this huge reaction against just a few people singing and dancing in the street?" So he said basically it's because the city*-dwellers feel very threatened by our simple lifestyle. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. So this whole Western civilization is threatened. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are afraid of the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Their whole economic structure will fail. Theoretically, take it for granted that if people give up meat*-eating . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No smoking, no drinking. *Prabhupāda: . . . then whole civilization finished. Even theoretically taken, no smoking, no gambling, no intoxication, no illicit sex, their whole civilization is finished. Lord Zetland said . . . not only that, one Sir Valentine Chirol, I think, Sir Valentine Chirol, British, important, when Gandhi started non*-cooperation. So he remarked that, "If Gandhi's movement, this non-cooperation movement, is one percent successful, then we will have to leave it." And actually that happened. Because they were ruling over India by Indian cooperation. So Gandhi struck to the right point, non-cooperation, and he scented the danger, and he remarked in that time that if one percent Indian people non-cooperate, then we are . . . our British Empire finished. So there are intelligent persons, they are thinking in their own way that, "This movement is so strong against this modern material civilization, if it is allowed to spread then our whole civilization, whole economic structure will be finished." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What they're doing now, these parents are getting . . . contacting devotees who have blooped, and they're getting these devotees to make statements against us. *Prabhupāda: Just see. They are living peacefully in a villa in Paris so happily that, ah . . . some . . . one gentleman came to see me, "Swamiji, you are preaching against meat*-eating. This cannot be done in this country, then we will starve." I said: "No, you will never starve. You take this formula." (laughs) So they are thinking like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And the most dangerous point is that young men are taking part. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The future of the country. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That means it will continue. Young men, they take anything very seriously. So this movement is threatening the—what is called?—foundation of material civilization in the Western countries. That's a fact. The foundation is threatened. Their whole foundation is this: meat*-eating, illicit sex, gambling and intoxication. They have no other formula. Lord Zetland, when he was asking one of my Godbrothers that, "Can you make me Brahmin ?" So "Yes, why not? You follow." He said: "It is impossible for us. It is impossible for us. And we are no one." That's a fact. If some percentage of the population, European and American population, take it seriously, then it will be dangerous for their government, their economic situation, that's a fact. That, our Sudāmā Vipra is saying that, theatrical . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sudāmā Swami is in New York. Hari-śauri: Sudāmā Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Hah! And whole situation is threatened, Caitanya Mahāprabhu movement. Have you seen that? Hari-śauri: That play. Prabhupāda: Play? Hari-śauri: Kali. Age of Kali. Prabhupāda: Yes. The purport of the play is that this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is threatening to all the associates of pāpa . (break) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He, Rāmeśvara told me last night, is completely against these so*-called religious movements like our, and he has written personal letters to the parents of all the people who have joined, all those who would write to him, that these types of movements should be stopped. Prabhupāda: The young men should form another party, all the American young men. Haṁsadūta: Viṣṇu party. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Viṣṇu party. Yes. Now they should take in politics. Haṁsadūta: You wrote in your Eighth Canto, there are always two parties: the Viṣṇu party and the demons' party. Prabhupāda: Yes. If they're forming demons' party, let them . . . Haṁsadūta: Form a Viṣṇu party. Prabhupāda: That, ah, the fight between the Viṣṇu party and the demon party is always going on. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well they could never stop it, I mean. They could just make some difficulty, that's all. *Prabhupāda: No. It is in the hands of the young men. It is not possible for them to stop it. If it had been a sentiment of some retired, just like other thing, that Vivekananda's, all these old fools and rascals, they assemble and meditate. It is not that. They are active. It is not so*-called meditation, and snoring, (makes snoring sound) meditating. It is not that. I have seen, all these rascals go, yogīs , they prescribe meditation, and meditation means sleeping and snoring, that's all. It is not that movement. We are sending, inducing, "Come, sell books." It is no question of meditation. Cheating himself and cheating others. What he will meditate? And he requires so many primary rules and regulations before meditating, not that . . . in the Bhagavad-gītā , for meditation it is clearly stated one should not close the eyes. As soon as you close the eyes and meditate, you will sleep. Immediately. It is . . . they should be half closed, and concentrate your eyesight on the top of the nose. That is meditation. Not that closing and snoring and "huh." Anyway, these rascals, they are going on. Who cares for the genuine thing? Nobody cares. Dharma . . . (indistinct) . . . that "I am your guru , I have followers," dharma principle, but he does not know anything. This is going on. Neither the rascal guru knows, neither his disciple knows. This is the position. Everywhere this is going on. All bluff. This very word used, a dharma . . . (indistinct) . . . get a plaque, that "I am . . . (indistinct) . . ." That's all. And hang it, that's all, and do nothing, that's all. "I do not know nothing, but I have the plaque," that's all. All these gurus , all these chelas are doing that. This Anandamayi, Sai Baba, this, that, so many. What do they know? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is why these leaders are getting confused, so many bogus people are there. Prabhupāda: Yes. That should . . . action should be there. If we come out successful in this, how you say, messing, and that will be very good. It is called that, messing? Hari-śauri: Mixing. Haṁsadūta: Mixing. Prabhupāda: Not mixing. Hari-śauri: Punching together. Prabhupāda: Messing, that what is called? Chaduni? What is called? Devotee: Sifting? Prabhupāda: Sifting, yes. (coughing) It is called not messing also? Hmm. Sifting high grains from the small. Devotees: Yes. Hmm. Hmm. Prabhupāda: The smaller grains, they fall down. Haṁsadūta: Oh, straining. Prabhupāda: Straining, yes. Straining, yes, straining. If the straining process, no, that's nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they can get rid of all the bad ones just like in the rice field. The good ones . . . (indistinct) . . . every newspaper in America is covering us, Rāmeśvara said. Prabhupāda: Good advertisement. I was seeing that. And every page Kṛṣṇa, there is Kṛṣṇa. Every page there is Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, that happened in Germany. I told them, "It is very good that Hare Kṛṣṇa." . . . (indistinct) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughing) We are known as Kṛṣṇas. They call us Kṛṣṇas. You put yourselves "Kṛṣṇians." They are Christians and we are Kṛṣṇians. And actually from Kṛṣṇian, the "Christian" has come. Yes. Kṛṣṇa, ah, Christo, there is a word, Greek word, and Christo is broken spelling of Kṛṣṇa. In India we say one is . . . one name say is Kṛṣṇa, at least in Bengali we say Kṛṣṭa. Kṛṣṭa. This Kṛṣṭa word is from Kṛṣṇa. And from Kṛṣṭa, Christ has come. This is original root, Kṛṣṇa. So we have to fight. Here is a chance for fighting, so why they're afraid? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we just have to work hard on getting everything coordinated. *Prabhupāda: You have to fight, keeping our principles strictly. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). We should not be afraid to fight. And it is . . . there are Indians . . . it is not the Indians cooperating. Now Indians and Americans should join for fighting on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be successful. How they can say it is not genuine movement? Other so*-called yogīs , svāmīs , they may be rascal, but this is not the rascaldom. It is . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are saying . . . they are saying we are not Hindus. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are saying this is not Hinduism. Prabhupāda: Hindus . . . we are Kṛṣṇian. It they, if . . . Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇans. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, in the dictionary it is said that Hindu God, but we are claiming, that Kṛṣṇian, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means "Godder than the Hindus." When you say we are not Hindu, that we are not restricted with the Hindi community. That is the meaning. Because Kṛṣṇa says, "I am for everyone." So why should we be restricted to the Hindi community? Kṛṣṇa says sarva yoniṣu, "In all forms of life, I am the seed giving father." Why He should be simply Hindu? This point should be stressed. Sarva yoni means eighty*-four million . . . eighty, eighty, 8,400,000s, all forms. Kṛṣṇa is for all of them. We therefore, why Kṛṣṇa should be restricted to the Hindu community? Hindus are included, but Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to Hindus. Kṛṣṇa's picture, that Bāla Gopāla, He's embracing the calves. Kṛṣṇa does not embrace only the gopīs, He's embracing the calves also. That is Kṛṣṇa. He's equal to everyone. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonayaḥ , so many low-grade forms of life, they're also His . . . devotees are part and parcel. Mamaivāṁśo jī . . . (BG 15.7). Quote this: Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to the Hindu. We say, "We are not Hindu," means we are not . . . we embrace everyone. We are not restricted to the Hindus. The so-called Christians, so-called Muhammadans, they . . . we embrace everyone. *And actually we are doing that. Why should we simply be compact within the limitation of Hindus? That is not our purpose. Then we would not have come to Western countries. We actually spreading universal brotherhood. Kṛṣṇa is the father and everyone our brother. We are claiming all our fallen brothers to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu: pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). This is our movement. Why you should be restricted to the India, and amongst the Hindus? Our Gods, They asked that "Go, go," bhārata bhūmite : you have taken birth in India, that's all right, make your life successful and go abroad, para upakāra. Janma sārthaka kori koro para-upakāra . This is our mission. We have come to you to make you civilized. This is our mission. And the best men of your country they are recommending. All the learned circle, they are coming. How can you defy us? If you have got brain . . . you are trying to brainwash. Actually you have no brain to . . . (indistinct) . . . how important it is, this movement. You are trying to brainwash. We are not brainwashing. We are giving you good brain. That is our mission, that you are so dull-headed we have come to give you good brain. Su-medhasaḥ . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). We have come to make you intelligent. Receive us well, for your benefit. Tell them like that. Bring one court case, and I shall sit . . . go and sleep there, and expose them, item by item. I know my case is strong. Hari-śauri: It's the strongest. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Yes. I will speak. If you cannot speak, I shall go and speak. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are a few Indians, I was just thinking, in America who are right at the top of the American scientific research. There is one Dr. Khorana, he won the Nobel Prize, and there are a few others who are right at the top of the . . . Prabhupāda: Where he is? Where he is? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All in America. They're at the top of the US space program. I think we should also approach these people who are . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Punjabis. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He won the Nobel Prize, you know. But I just remembered that there are few other Indians who are at the top of the US space program, so if we approach them . . . Prabhupāda: Now our this Svarūpa Dāmodara and others, they can also come. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should approach all these people and get them to take part in the petition. *Prabhupāda: That Bhavan's Journal, he did not dare to publish my statement. Everyone is combined to kill Kṛṣṇa. Everyone, all over the world. God . . . "There is no God," the scientists, these philosophers, the politicians—everyone. This is the only movement talking of God. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādī . Everywhere, impersonalists and zero: "There is no God." The zero- vādīs , they are little frank, but these rascals, nirviśeṣavādīs , "God has no head, no tail," they are dangerous. Zero- vādīs , they call Him zero, that's all right. That is . . . we can understand, they admit. But these rascals, zero . . . nirviśeṣavādīs, "Yes, there is God, but He has no head, He has no tail, He has no hand, He has no leg." Then what He has? They are greatest cheater, more dangerous than the śūnyavādīs. That is the version of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Vedinām mayima bhogda hoila nāstik , vedāśraya nāstikavāda bhogda ki hodi . These Buddhists, they do not care for the Vedic injunction, we can understand. But these Śankarites, they take shelter of the Vedas and they say: "There is no form of God." And that is being followed, the so*-called Hindus. All the invitees in that meeting, Bajaj meeting, they are all nirviśeṣvādī . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Impersonalists. Prabhupāda: All impersonal. Jagadīśa: That's why there may be a problem in getting Indian people to support our movement. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: If there is any trouble in getting Indians . . . *Prabhupāda: No, we don't care for Indians and Europeans. We care for Kṛṣṇa, that's all. I didn't care for anyone. I simply care for Kṛṣṇa, that's all. And my Guru Mahārāja, that's all. I went to your country not supported by Indians and Europeans. I went on the order of my Guru Mahārāja and under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa's protection, that's all. That is wanted. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). We want two favors: one from guru , one from Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want anyone's favor. So you have to fight. You cannot fight immaterialists. Kṛṣṇa never said, "Arjuna, oh, you are My devotee, you sit down and sleep, I shall take care of . . ." He never said that. (laughs) So if you take that position, "We are devotees, nonviolent, and let us sleep," that is not . . . fight, with all the resources that we have got. That is wanted. That you cannot stop. (loud voices in background) They are coming, going, how you can stop? People, public, they are coming, going here. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They all want to come and have a look at the guesthouse. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. So prepare for fight. Don't be afraid. Arjuna, they were five brothers, and the other party, one hundred brothers. Therefore Dhṛtarāṣṭra was confident, that "What are these five brothers without any help? We have ruined them. They were in the forest for thirteen years, lost all connection, no kingdom. I have got government in hand, and my sons are . . . hundred sons, and we are well equipped. How . . .?" Therefore the . . . bring that Bhagavad*-gītā , dṛṣṭvā tu pāṇḍavāṇīkam (BG 1.2). Jagadīśa: Dṛṣṭvā tu pāṇḍavāṇīkaṁ vyūḍhaṁ duryodhanas tadā . Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda: If someone wants to come, let him come. Akṣayānanda: Ācāryam . . . Prabhupāda: Why you have refused him? Let him come. Akṣayānanda: Ācāryam upasaṅgamya rājā vacanam abravīt (BG 1.2). Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the translation? Akṣayānanda: "Sañjaya said, 'O King, after looking over the army gathered by the sons of Pāṇḍu, King Duryodhana went to his teacher and began to speak the following words.' " Prabhupāda: Aiye, aiye. (Please come, please come.) (guests arrive) (break) Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is to preach. So you join us. Why should you be limited within Vṛndāvana? The people are taking this, and there is . . . now they are feeling the strength. The whole world is now combining against this movement. That means they are feeling the strength. Certainly it is not credit. Indian man: Certainly. *Prabhupāda: Don't say "certainly." You must come forward to fight. If you simply sit down in Vṛndāvana, then Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is not being carried. He says, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126), that is His mission. So this attempt has been made in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, so why other parties, they should sit down and simply . . .? I am a teeny person, single-handed we shall fight. Why you should see the fun and do not fight? That I am asking you. I shall fight, and you shall see the fun. Indian man: No, no. Prabhupāda: What is this? Now, you appear to be educated gentlemen, you combine, all the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava gosvāmīs , and come with me to fight, because there is a world fight now. They are threatened. Their whole civilization is threatened by this movement. That is the position now. Whole Europe and America, they are combining. They are intelligent person, they see that this movement is spreading like epidemic. They have admitted, some of their party, "If this movement is allowed to advance, then some day they will take our government." They have expressed that feeling. And now they are preparing to fight out. These . . . all these fathers of these young men, they are combining together to charge me that I am kidnapping their boys. So it is a serious situation. You should not see simply the fun and claim to belong to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Now you should come out to fight. Am I wrong or right? Indian man: You are right. *Prabhupāda: Then do that. Hold a meeting among the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas here, and I will explain the position. Now we should combine together and fight. As soon as you introduce something strong, there will be fight. There will be fight. Even Kṛṣṇa had to see the fight, Kurukṣetra. Dharmakṣetre kurukṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). The fight must be there, yuyutsavaḥ . So if you belong to Caitanya Mahāprabhu's party, then you should come out to fight. Whatever done is done, and it is done single*-handed. Nobody has helped me, even not my Godbrothers. These American boys, they have helped me. They understood the philosophy and they helped me. Rather, they are criticizing that I am making these American boys sannyāsī and giving them sacred thread. They are criticizing. What is your opinion? Indian man: I don't think that's a . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They criticize me. They do not recognize this temple as a Vaiṣṇava temple. They say angrej temple. (laughter) Indian man: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . there will be whole integration towards Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jīvera 'svarūpa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Why they criticize? We are trying that. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Why the pāpa-yonis should be neglected? So this thing have been done single-handed, now you should come forward, all, combine together. Ye aap log acchi tarah se sochiye aur combined hoiye, aaiye hamare saath me. (You people think nicely and combine together, come along with me.) There is a great fight. We are just planning how to fight. Simply katha vachak hone se kya hoga, pet palan ho sakta hai, isme kuch vishesh kaam nahi hai. (What is the use of just being a preacher? You can earn for your stomach, but there is nothing special in this.) Now when there is fight, it requires real strength. Now their fight is confronting us because they are feeling the strength. Their whole civilization is threatened. We are recommending no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling and no meat-eating. But this is the basic principle of modern civilization. So the foundation is threatened. Theoretically they are taking that "If these four things are stopped, then where is our civilization? Where we stand?" Meat-eating, they have all over the world millions of slaughterhouse. So if these millions of slaughterhouse is stopped, then where they stand? They are threatened like that. *Indian man: Their whole set*-up, their whole economy is being threatened. Prabhupāda: The millions of liquor manufacturers, breweries, millions of gambling houses, so . . . cigarette factories. So theoretically, if this movement is successful, then whole civilization is finished. So they are now looking . . . because these young men have taken seriously, so they are threatened and they are making a strong party to fight with us. They cannot safely say that against this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement they are threatening a charge against my movement or me that I am kidnapping young men. That is their threatening. I am not kidnapping. I am not going to their house to kidnap. They are coming to us. Ye sab position hai. Aaplog sab Vrndavana me gosai log sab hain, humko thoda sa help kijiye. (This is the position. You all in Vṛndāvana, there are Goswamis also there, help me a little.) *The gosvāmīs, they are śrī*-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau . Now prove. They are descendants. Now prove—come forward. Śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau . Simply sitting at home. And in Bengal there is Nityānanda-vaṁśa . What is Nityānanda-vaṁśa ? Nityānanda went forward before Jagāi-Mādhāi and He was hurt. Blood came out. Where is that Nityānanda- vaṁśa ? Fight between Jagāi-Mādhāi and Nityānanda . . . that is Nityānanda-vaṁśa , simply taking advantage of coming from Nityānanda-vaṁśa , "I have become guru . Give me your money," and sit down. "Let me enjoy life with my wife and children." That kind of Nityānanda-vaṁśa will not help. Come forward to fight. With this fighting is now here. (aside) You can show the newspaper clipping. Bahut big argument ho raha hai. (A big argument is going on to fight this.) First of all they thought that so many svāmīs and yogīs come, all rascals, they stay for some time and go away. Even Vivekananda. (laughter) So this is not a bogus movement, it is taking stand. So now they are threatened and they are combining together, especially the Christian . . . ye dekhiye kitna baseless hai accusation. Just see how baseless is their accusation. But in each heading there is "Kṛṣṇa." (break) . . . bring various charges against our . . . Devotee: Mind control, brainwashing. *Prabhupāda: You should go to see Viśvambhara Goswami also. Panch gavya usme cow mutra diya jata hai, to usi ko prominence de raha hai udhar milk hai usko nahi, ye sabse . . . aur sab gavya chod diya, urine ka taste hai ye sab chal raha hai. ye sab bada fight hai aap log aiye, sahyog kijiye. Aaplog jo actual battlefield me jana chahte hain usko hum leke jayenge. Aaplog tayyar hoiye ladai karne ke liye. Aisi baat nahi hai ki hum nahi ja sakte, wo sab hum . . . aaplog jo bheed hai wo sab tayyar hoiye. (In the pancha gavya , cow urine is added, so prominence is being given for that. There is milk from cows, they are not bothered by all this . . . all the other products from cows they have ignored, there is the taste of urine. All this is going on. This is a big fight, you people come and support us. Those of you who want to go to the actual battlefield, we will take you all. You all be prepared to fight. It is not that we cannot go, all that we . . . you as a crowd be prepared.) This is fortunate that you have come in this moment. So I'll give you this inspiration. Now combine together all Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs. Kṛṣṇa cult is for everyone, either Gauḍīya or Rāmānuja or everyone. Now all of you should come forward. That you do. Admitting kijiye, ye sab ho raha hai Krishna conscious movement ko cut down karne ke liye sab combine ho rahe hain. aap kya chahte hain ki hum udhar defeat ho karke vapas laut ke aaye. To aaplog thoda help kijiye. (You admit that all this is going on, they are trying to cut down the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement and they are all combining. What do you want, that we are defeated there and return back? So you people must help.) They are concerned with the Kṛṣṇa cult. Kṛṣṇa cult means all the ācāryas , all the ācāryas , either Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka or anyone, they should combine together. Abhi ghar me baith kar kaam nahi chalega. hamara guru maharaj decide kiya, wo bahut dheet hai kehte hain (Now sitting at home we cannot achieve anything. My Guru Maharaja decided, he is very stubborn, it is said.) Mana! Tumi kiser vaishnav? Pratisthar tare nirjaner ghare tava harinam kebol kaitav. (Mind, what kind of devotee are you? For cheap adoration you are sitting in one solitary room and chanting, is simply cheating.) Do you understand Bengali? (Humare vaishnav hain kahin bahar nahi jate hain aur ghar baithkarke Haridas Thakur ka nakal karte hain. (Our Vaisnavas are there, they don't go out anywhere, and they sit at home and imitate Haridas Thakur.) (aside) Why you are talking? It is not very important. It is for him. It is a very bad habit. So we should be very alert in this point. All the Vaiṣṇavas of different sampradāyas , especially Gauḍīya sampradāya , you should come forward to fight this. They are gathering their strength. We should gather our strength. Fight. Kṛṣṇa never said that "Don't fight." Never said, Arjuna that, "You are My devotee, you don't fight. You are very good gentleman, nonviolent, and I shall do everything for you." Never said that. Kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samu . . . (BG 2.2) Viṣame samupasthitam . "Now there is a great dangerous fight, why you are saying like a nonsense," anārya*-juṣṭam , "like non-Aryan?" To ye fight mauzood hai dekhiye, have prasadam. to aaplog sab aiye, hum to akele hain. (So this fight is present, have prasadam . So you people come together, I am all alone.) This fight is another good news, that they are feeling the strength. Otherwise they would not have prepared to fight. Formerly they were thinking that so many svāmīs and yogīs come, come and go. But now they are feeling the strength, they charging that their young men are being kidnapped. It is strong party. And these boys, they have taken to Vaiṣṇava principles, their parents have tried to take them back and induce them to eat meat and according . . . they deny. This is also tried. I have got many disciples, they are coming out very rich family, rich father. So one of the fathers called his son that "I am old man. The business is dwindling. You come and take . . ." So I told him that, "You go. Why not take your father's business and use it for Kṛṣṇa?" So he went, on my order. The father wanted him to eat meat. So he denied, that "I cannot do that. I can help in your business, but I cannot accept your way of life. That is not possible." Then the father saw, "Then he is lost, useless. If he's not adopting our life . . ." So there, that one father; *now the all fathers have combined, that "Our children are now lost. They do not come home, what to speak of adopting again our way of life." They cannot accept the way of life, meat*-eating and . . . that is not possible. That they're finding dangerous. And other movement they join and they come back. They remain what they are. Simply they say that, "I belong to this grouping." But our is different. Not only he belongs to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, but a different type of life. (reads something) Hmm. Give it. They have taken . . . (indistinct) . . . there are many, many groups like that. Hari-śauri: This is New York. Prabhupāda: Chanting in the street. Isko kuch upay kijiye. (Find some solution for this.) What do you want to do? Propose. Hold a meeting of all the Gosvāmīs. You take the leading part. Go to Viśvanātha Goswami. If you like, he can go with you to see others, "This is the position. You come and join." What do they say? Indian man: I . . . (indistinct) . . . contacted them, call a meeting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately. Indian man: How long you are staying here? Prabhupāda: I will stay if you hold immediately meeting in this temple. We have got enough space here. First of all you see some leading gosvāmī , and then you chalk out how to fight. All the sampra . . . now it is question of Kṛṣṇa cult, it is not only Gauḍīya. So take gosvāmīs , some of you, and meet all the leaders and hold a meeting, immediately arrange. And explain the whole situation. Let us combine. And those who are educated, they should go. We shall arrange for their all expenditure. It doesn't matter. Fight. "This is a genuine cult. If you discriminate, that is discrimination against religion, cult. We are accepting everyone, but it is a genuine cult. You also Christian, you accept anyone; why you say it is not genuine?" That we have to prove. There the Hindus and Indians who are there, they will also join. So immediately hold a meeting. It is very serious situation. Aap leading part lijiye. Aur jo goswami hain, aur sab jo jo hain sab combine hoke chaliye sab apko hum leke jayenge. (You take the leading part. And the Goswamis and others, who are all combined and come with us, we shall take all of you.) This is genuine movement. Why the American government should be discriminating against a genuine religious sect, Kṛṣṇa? Make this company. (aside) Prasāda , give him prasāda . Very seriously deliberate. And you go with him. We have got any car? Hari-śauri: Not right now. Not at the present moment. (aside) Haṁsadūta's van here? Prabhupāda: Where our car has gone? Akṣayānanda: Bareilly. They have program in Bareilly. Prabhupāda: When? Akṣayānanda: Two days ago they went. Prabhupāda: No, when the program is? Akṣayānanda: Now it's going on. Prabhupāda: Going on. Akṣayānanda: Mmm. Prabhupāda: When they will come back? Akṣayānanda: About one week, one and a half weeks. Prabhupāda: So we can ask them to come back. The car will be required both here and there. Akṣayānanda: Okay. That's easy enough. I can do it. Prabhupāda: Mmm. Or any other car available? Hari-śauri: (indistinct) . . . Krishna Chand. Akṣayānanda: No, he doesn't have one. Prabhupāda: No, Viśvan . . . there is always car. Hari-śauri: We have the motorcycle. Akṣayānanda: We can arrange elsewhere. It's okay. Prabhupāda: Hah. So(to sab se miliye. (meet everyone.) He will go with you, immediately. Meeting arrange kijiye. (Arrange the meeting.) Thank you very much. (pause) Prabhupāda: Combine together in Vṛndāvana. Fight . . . without fight where is life? If there is no fighting, then what is that life? That is dead stone. Fight must be there. Kṛṣṇa's whole life is fighting from the very birth. His father carried Him to Gokula where He is still living, and He fell down from the Yamunā and . . . just born, fighting began. Just born. And at Yaśodāmayī's house, Nanda Mahārāja's house, so many demons daily coming—Śakaṭāsura, Aghāsura, Bakāsura, Pūtanā, so on, so on, so on; ultimately Kaṁsa, when He was young boy. Vṛndāvana, so many asuras came. You have seen the pictures? Kṛṣṇa is fighting with the horse demon, with the bull . . . (indistinct) . . . fighting. If Kṛṣṇa is fighting, why not Kṛṣṇa consciousness the same thing? You cannot expect peaceful life. No, there must be fighting, then think, "That is Kṛṣṇa's presence, His fight." So this fighting means they're feeling the presence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Otherwise why they're arranging fight? Had it been an insignificant thing, there was no question of fighting. Mosha marte kaman daga. (Bringing a cannon to kill a mosquito.) to The gun, Howitzer gun? What is that? German, some gun they will go from this part of . . . this side of English Channel to other. Calais, the other side Calais? Devotees: Calais. Hari-śauri: Calais in France. Prabhupāda: Calais in France. So from France to other side English Channel, London, that's all right. Devotee: Artillery guns? Prabhupāda: Yes, they . . . Hitler invented. The gun will be fired from this side. Hari-śauri: Big, huge gun. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this gun is required not for killing a mosquito. (laughter) Big enemy. So they are preparing this big gun, and not the mosquito and this Mahesh Yogi and this yogī . You see? They are mosquitoes. For them they don't require any gun. So for big enemy, big gun, you see. They are preparing big gun, that means Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is big enemy. It is not mosquito. So you remain a big enemy, you don't become a mosquito. That is wanted. Immediately arrange this meeting here. Call all the Vaiṣṇavas, all. Apnader je party ache tader kichu bolun, Nimbarka sampradaya ke . . . nimbarka sampradaya tader gaudiyar sampradayer opor ekta dwesh ache. Janen ota? Khobor rakhen na? Amra je Caitanya Mahaprabhuke bhagavan boli ora ota swikar kore na. (Whatever parties you have, tell them something. To the Nimbarka sampradāya . . . Nimbarka sampradāya has envy on Gaudiya sampradaya . Do you know? You are not updated? They can’t accept that we call Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the Supreme Lord.) Indian man: Ekbar shunechi santa das babaji korten, r bakito keu na. (I heard once that Santa das babaji does, but not others.) Prabhupāda: Na sobai kore. Ora oi nie gaudiya vaisnavder criticize kore. Amrau kori je manushke bhagavan bolar jonno, eta kono aschorjer bishoy na. Jemon amra Ramkrishnake criticize kori je ekta manushke ekta bhagavan koye dilo. Sei hisebe ora Caitanya Mahaprabhukeu mone kore manush. Manushke bhagavan eta kono sampraday swikar korbena. Ora bole Caitanya Mahaprabhu manush . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, all of them. They criticize the Gaudiya Vaisnavas in this regard. We also criticize, this is not something strange. We do it because people consider the common man as the Supreme Lord. For example we criticize Ramakrishna, that they made a human being as the Supreme Lord. So they also think of Caitanya Mahāprabhu as a human being. No sampradāya will accept a human being as God. They say Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a human being . . . (indistinct) . . .) so far Kṛṣṇa is concerned, everyone. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (Conversation on New York court case) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So a lot of these parents are saying that we should all be . . . we should be investigated. Now they are saying that we are not Hindus, and they are saying that by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the thinking of the brain stops. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So in New York the press is against us. But in Los Angeles it is going in our favor, he said (referring to report by Rāmeśvara). In Los Angeles they had kidnapped the best girl distributor. Now she has come back, but, ah . . . Prabhupāda: So these things will happen. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are, as soon as we become very important, our enemies, they will try to suppress us. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is what they are doing. Prabhupāda: So that is natural. Even Kṛṣṇa was suppressed. Kṛṣṇa could not be suppressed, but the attempt was there, Kamsa. So these things go on, still we have to work. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: If we work sincerely then we'll come out successful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So there are a few things . . . Prabhupāda: We should not be afraid. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara ( BG 8.7). Kṛṣṇa advised Arjuna that "You fight," not that we shall not fight. We shall fight to the best . . . (indistinct) . . . and this is good, they are feeling the pressure of this movement. Otherwise, why they are going to take step? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they, what they do . . . these parents, what they want to do, they want this to be declared illegal. Now they . . . Prabhupāda: Illegal . . . they can, the children can also, those who are our children they can form an association. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But they cannot control us, our independence. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They should form. How the . . .? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But of course, we want to defeat them . . . Prabhupāda: The parents, the parents cannot control their sons and daughters who is above eighteen. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We want to defeat these people legally, because now it's a very big case and every paper in America is covering it. Every paper. Prabhupāda: That means they're feeling pressure. They're feeling pressure. Now we should take proper steps, that's all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They had a big press conference in which Professor Shukla spoke up . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. He has spoken very nicely. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Rāmeśvara said that he got up and he said: "How can . . . you are insulting our religion, saying we are not . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, better that the Indians should combine and they should bring a case against these people. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And then it will be all right. That "This is, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is genuine, and these people are trying to insult us." Bring a defamation case against these persons. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think the best thing is to mobilize all the Indians in America, because every country . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already suggested, that they should take signature from all Indians that "this is genuine Indian cultural movement, and it a great fortune for Indians. They were bereft of their own culture and now we have got this culture again. The Ratha*-yātrā is going on, we are so much enlivened." In this way they should file petition. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like in England they would not let you do the Ratha*-yātrā, the Indians . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. This is discrimination against sect . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Against minority. Prabhupāda: Yes. Against minority. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And no government in the world wants to do that. Prabhupāda: It is against American constitution. So they should file immediately a case. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And America is very sensitive to . . . Prabhupāda: So you note down. You are simply hearing. Note down and inform them. Yes. Ah, it is being recorded, that's all right. So give them this direction. Combine the Indian community. In Toronto and in . . . there are many thousands of Indians, New York, Canada, London. These are very important places. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we can do that. *Prabhupāda: Yes, many thousands and thousands of important Indians, very rich men there are. In London there are very rich Indians. They can form immediately a solid association. They should present that, "This Kṛṣṇa is our God. In every Indian home we observe Kṛṣṇa Janmāṣṭamī." Even though one does not follow Kṛṣṇa cult, still if he is Hindu he follows the Janmāṣṭamī. Inevitably, everywhere. So this Kṛṣṇa cult is genuine, Vedic, based on Bhagavad*-gītā , which was spoken long, long years ago before any religion . . . any religious literature in the world. The Buddha literature or the Christian literature and Jewish literature, they cannot be counted more than two thousand years. A little more than that. But this Kṛṣṇa cult is coming, it is coming from, I have already explained in the Introduction, it is coming from four hundred millions of years ago. But even from historically, it is five thousand years—beyond all religious literature in the world. We have to present this case in the court. And let it be discussed thorough . . . yes, and see our books, compare any religious books with our these books. Present all the opinions of big, big professors how traditional Indian culture is there. You have to fight, organize. Give them hint, this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: How they can defeat us? We have got so solid ground. How they can defeat, these rascals? We consider them simply rascals and fools. And we call them rascals and fools. What do they know of religion? What do they know of God? They know slaughterhouse and killing and illicit sex, and killing the fetus. That's all. What do they know? They are not even civilized. We have come to make them civilized. They should understand. They are not civilized. They do not how to eat even. The first principle of life is eating. They do not know how to eat. We are teaching them how to eat. They simply challenge, like that. When men are uncivilized, they do not how to grow food, they kill animals in the jungle and eat. When they are civilized, they know how to grow food now, and the nice food grains, fruit, flowers, now why should say, "You eat the meat"? The meat*-eating is meant for the most uncivilized persons. That means they do not know even how to eat. They do not know how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex. Nothing. They're having sex like cats and dogs. No marriage—girl's friend, boy's friend, and then illegitimate . . . so many things. They should be exposed. *And there is no harm exposing, in truth. Simply by manufacturing, constructing a big, high skyscraper building, does it mean he is civilized? It is passionate work. They can take credit of a good mistrī, just like so many mistrīs, they construct. I cannot do. Does it mean I am less than him? I could not construct this temple. I have to call some low class, a builder and company, they constructed. Does it meant he is higher in intelligence than me? They are giving credit, "Oh, now they have constructed skyscraper building. They have constructed motorcar, horseless carriage." They are taking credit on this. But this is not civilization. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has given the formula of civilization, three words: mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu . Where is that civilization, to consider every woman as mother? Except one's own married wife, all women, mother. Where is that civilization? That should be; *otherwise there cannot be social regulation. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu para dravyeṣu loṣṭravat : others' property is just like garbage in the street. Nobody touches the garbage. That is civilization. So Mr. Pillai . . . (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . got to do. He wants members of parliament to give . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. That we have already suggested. Immediately. Every member of . . . if Mr . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Krishna Modi. Prabhupāda: . . . Brahmānanda . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Reddy. Prabhupāda: . . . he suggested that this movement should be spread all over the world. Let him write. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He won't give it in writing. Prabhupāda: No. That is his insincerity. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Frankly, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no member of parliament will give it either. I know it, because even when Tejiyas was applying for his citizenship, Krishna Modi would not even give a letter of recommendation because he said this is a Congress Party policy. Prabhupāda: Then what can be done? Everything is nasty. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So this is what we'll do. We'll be starting a . . . Prabhupāda: You can give the names. There are so many members. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We are starting a petition here also. Prabhupāda: Not only petition. You can give the . . . ask what is this . . . (indistinct) . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And also . . . Prabhupāda: If there is . . . now Brahmānanda has at least given this order that they should be given two . . . that they be allowed to stay two years. That letter is there. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I have that letter. That letter says they have come to study Vedic literature. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That letter is there. Also we have a lot of other letters from great . . . Prabhupāda: The Indians should send a petition to the government, that "We want this movement here. We are separated from our culture. A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami has brought this . . ." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They say mobilizing the Indians in America . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . and that's most important thing because . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a most important thing, that you cannot discriminate minority communities. That is against American constitution. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, when this . . . when we had a similar situation in Germany, what we wanted to do is have all our centers in important cities in foreign countries all over the world make a letter and a delegation to visit the United States Embassy in all these places. This will have an effect, because if it's brought, if it comes in this way, international reaction . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, arrange like this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We're going to send . . . Rāmeśvara suggested we send a big petition of telegrams to the American Consulate. Because then American Consulate will transmit these telegrams to the State Department in Washington. We said that if our . . . we would pay for it, but our Life Members will all sign if we send a telegram to the American . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm, Dr. Shaligram taken a leading part? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? Hari-śauri: Dr. Shaligram Shukla. Prabhupāda: Shaligram Shukla. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In America? Yes. Prabhupāda: He is a learned scholar, and he is influential man in educational circles. There are many Indians you'll find, they are . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we can mobilize all the Indians. That's the best process. Prabhupāda: Yes, Indian opinion. I have already given suggestion to. The Indians should come forward. And from here also, similar, if the member . . . (indistinct) . . . know. Respectable Indian businessmen, they should say that, "This Kṛṣṇa cult is very, very old, genuine, and we are so enlightened that Swami Bhaktivedanta has taken this movement to the foreign countries. We are so proud," like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We want to do that. Prabhupāda: And that is a fact. Everyone is feeling proud. Take all signature of the gosvāmīs here, influential, that "This is genuine." Prove there, that it is genuine movement. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And we have letters from Swami Premananda and all the . . . (indistinct) . . . and all these letters from Bombay. I'm shipping all these to Rāmeśvara. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone should join. Now people are taking this cultural movement so seriously, and if our Indian leaders sleep, that is not good. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, I have . . . one boy in Delhi went to the British Embassy High Commission and bought a British paper, and even in the British paper the American court case was covered. Headline was "Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." I have the paper. Even in the British paper it had a prominent display. Normally you would expect . . . Haṁsadūta: Probably be in German papers too . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. In fact you would probably expect that . . . Prabhupāda: British paper. What does it say? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They were covering this court case. They had a nice prominent . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. They have taken it. Now, they are after intelligent person. They are . . . that has been expressed by this gentleman that, "It is going like epidemic." They must expect. That is their feeling, that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading so fast, like epidemic, we must take some step." That is already, they have expressed their feeling. And you said that in Australia, there one man said . . . Hari-śauri: Yes, psychiatrist. Prabhupāda: . . . that if the people take to this movement, then where you stand? He has also expressed. What is that? *Hari-śauri: There's a psychiatrist, after the Sydney City Council are trying to have us banned from the city altogether, and they took us to court, and we didn't contest the case and they lost. And then afterwards they . . . it worked out they spent $10,000 and so much manpower to try to get rid of us, and it didn't work. And then one newspaper man went to a psychiatrist and he asked him, "Can you explain why this huge reaction against just a few people singing and dancing in the street?" So he said basically it's because the city*-dwellers feel very threatened by our simple lifestyle. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. So this whole Western civilization is threatened. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are afraid of the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Their whole economic structure will fail. Theoretically, take it for granted that if people give up meat*-eating . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No smoking, no drinking. *Prabhupāda: . . . then whole civilization finished. Even theoretically taken, no smoking, no gambling, no intoxication, no illicit sex, their whole civilization is finished. Lord Zetland said . . . not only that, one Sir Valentine Chirol, I think, Sir Valentine Chirol, British, important, when Gandhi started non*-cooperation. So he remarked that, "If Gandhi's movement, this non-cooperation movement, is one percent successful, then we will have to leave it." And actually that happened. Because they were ruling over India by Indian cooperation. So Gandhi struck to the right point, non-cooperation, and he scented the danger, and he remarked in that time that if one percent Indian people non-cooperate, then we are . . . our British Empire finished. So there are intelligent persons, they are thinking in their own way that, "This movement is so strong against this modern material civilization, if it is allowed to spread then our whole civilization, whole economic structure will be finished." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What they're doing now, these parents are getting . . . contacting devotees who have blooped, and they're getting these devotees to make statements against us. *Prabhupāda: Just see. They are living peacefully in a villa in Paris so happily that, ah . . . some . . . one gentleman came to see me, "Swamiji, you are preaching against meat*-eating. This cannot be done in this country, then we will starve." I said: "No, you will never starve. You take this formula." (laughs) So they are thinking like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And the most dangerous point is that young men are taking part. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The future of the country. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That means it will continue. Young men, they take anything very seriously. So this movement is threatening the—what is called?—foundation of material civilization in the Western countries. That's a fact. The foundation is threatened. Their whole foundation is this: meat*-eating, illicit sex, gambling and intoxication. They have no other formula. Lord Zetland, when he was asking one of my Godbrothers that, "Can you make me Brahmin ?" So "Yes, why not? You follow." He said: "It is impossible for us. It is impossible for us. And we are no one." That's a fact. If some percentage of the population, European and American population, take it seriously, then it will be dangerous for their government, their economic situation, that's a fact. That, our Sudāmā Vipra is saying that, theatrical . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sudāmā Swami is in New York. Hari-śauri: Sudāmā Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Hah! And whole situation is threatened, Caitanya Mahāprabhu movement. Have you seen that? Hari-śauri: That play. Prabhupāda: Play? Hari-śauri: Kali. Age of Kali. Prabhupāda: Yes. The purport of the play is that this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is threatening to all the associates of pāpa . (break) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He, Rāmeśvara told me last night, is completely against these so*-called religious movements like our, and he has written personal letters to the parents of all the people who have joined, all those who would write to him, that these types of movements should be stopped. Prabhupāda: The young men should form another party, all the American young men. Haṁsadūta: Viṣṇu party. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Viṣṇu party. Yes. Now they should take in politics. Haṁsadūta: You wrote in your Eighth Canto, there are always two parties: the Viṣṇu party and the demons' party. Prabhupāda: Yes. If they're forming demons' party, let them . . . Haṁsadūta: Form a Viṣṇu party. Prabhupāda: That, ah, the fight between the Viṣṇu party and the demon party is always going on. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well they could never stop it, I mean. They could just make some difficulty, that's all. *Prabhupāda: No. It is in the hands of the young men. It is not possible for them to stop it. If it had been a sentiment of some retired, just like other thing, that Vivekananda's, all these old fools and rascals, they assemble and meditate. It is not that. They are active. It is not so*-called meditation, and snoring, (makes snoring sound) meditating. It is not that. I have seen, all these rascals go, yogīs , they prescribe meditation, and meditation means sleeping and snoring, that's all. It is not that movement. We are sending, inducing, "Come, sell books." It is no question of meditation. Cheating himself and cheating others. What he will meditate? And he requires so many primary rules and regulations before meditating, not that . . . in the Bhagavad-gītā , for meditation it is clearly stated one should not close the eyes. As soon as you close the eyes and meditate, you will sleep. Immediately. It is . . . they should be half closed, and concentrate your eyesight on the top of the nose. That is meditation. Not that closing and snoring and "huh." Anyway, these rascals, they are going on. Who cares for the genuine thing? Nobody cares. Dharma . . . (indistinct) . . . that "I am your guru , I have followers," dharma principle, but he does not know anything. This is going on. Neither the rascal guru knows, neither his disciple knows. This is the position. Everywhere this is going on. All bluff. This very word used, a dharma . . . (indistinct) . . . get a plaque, that "I am . . . (indistinct) . . ." That's all. And hang it, that's all, and do nothing, that's all. "I do not know nothing, but I have the plaque," that's all. All these gurus , all these chelas are doing that. This Anandamayi, Sai Baba, this, that, so many. What do they know? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is why these leaders are getting confused, so many bogus people are there. Prabhupāda: Yes. That should . . . action should be there. If we come out successful in this, how you say, messing, and that will be very good. It is called that, messing? Hari-śauri: Mixing. Haṁsadūta: Mixing. Prabhupāda: Not mixing. Hari-śauri: Punching together. Prabhupāda: Messing, that what is called? Chaduni? What is called? Devotee: Sifting? Prabhupāda: Sifting, yes. (coughing) It is called not messing also? Hmm. Sifting high grains from the small. Devotees: Yes. Hmm. Hmm. Prabhupāda: The smaller grains, they fall down. Haṁsadūta: Oh, straining. Prabhupāda: Straining, yes. Straining, yes, straining. If the straining process, no, that's nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they can get rid of all the bad ones just like in the rice field. The good ones . . . (indistinct) . . . every newspaper in America is covering us, Rāmeśvara said. Prabhupāda: Good advertisement. I was seeing that. And every page Kṛṣṇa, there is Kṛṣṇa. Every page there is Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, that happened in Germany. I told them, "It is very good that Hare Kṛṣṇa." . . . (indistinct) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughing) We are known as Kṛṣṇas. They call us Kṛṣṇas. You put yourselves "Kṛṣṇians." They are Christians and we are Kṛṣṇians. And actually from Kṛṣṇian, the "Christian" has come. Yes. Kṛṣṇa, ah, Christo, there is a word, Greek word, and Christo is broken spelling of Kṛṣṇa. In India we say one is . . . one name say is Kṛṣṇa, at least in Bengali we say Kṛṣṭa. Kṛṣṭa. This Kṛṣṭa word is from Kṛṣṇa. And from Kṛṣṭa, Christ has come. This is original root, Kṛṣṇa. So we have to fight. Here is a chance for fighting, so why they're afraid? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we just have to work hard on getting everything coordinated. *Prabhupāda: You have to fight, keeping our principles strictly. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). We should not be afraid to fight. And it is . . . there are Indians . . . it is not the Indians cooperating. Now Indians and Americans should join for fighting on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be successful. How they can say it is not genuine movement? Other so*-called yogīs , svāmīs , they may be rascal, but this is not the rascaldom. It is . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are saying . . . they are saying we are not Hindus. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are saying this is not Hinduism. Prabhupāda: Hindus . . . we are Kṛṣṇian. It they, if . . . Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇans. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, in the dictionary it is said that Hindu God, but we are claiming, that Kṛṣṇian, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means "Godder than the Hindus." When you say we are not Hindu, that we are not restricted with the Hindi community. That is the meaning. Because Kṛṣṇa says, "I am for everyone." So why should we be restricted to the Hindi community? Kṛṣṇa says sarva yoniṣu, "In all forms of life, I am the seed giving father." Why He should be simply Hindu? This point should be stressed. Sarva yoni means eighty*-four million . . . eighty, eighty, 8,400,000s, all forms. Kṛṣṇa is for all of them. We therefore, why Kṛṣṇa should be restricted to the Hindu community? Hindus are included, but Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to Hindus. Kṛṣṇa's picture, that Bāla Gopāla, He's embracing the calves. Kṛṣṇa does not embrace only the gopīs, He's embracing the calves also. That is Kṛṣṇa. He's equal to everyone. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonayaḥ , so many low-grade forms of life, they're also His . . . devotees are part and parcel. Mamaivāṁśo jī . . . (BG 15.7). Quote this: Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to the Hindu. We say, "We are not Hindu," means we are not . . . we embrace everyone. We are not restricted to the Hindus. The so-called Christians, so-called Muhammadans, they . . . we embrace everyone. *And actually we are doing that. Why should we simply be compact within the limitation of Hindus? That is not our purpose. Then we would not have come to Western countries. We actually spreading universal brotherhood. Kṛṣṇa is the father and everyone our brother. We are claiming all our fallen brothers to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu: pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). This is our movement. Why you should be restricted to the India, and amongst the Hindus? Our Gods, They asked that "Go, go," bhārata bhūmite : you have taken birth in India, that's all right, make your life successful and go abroad, para upakāra. Janma sārthaka kori koro para-upakāra . This is our mission. We have come to you to make you civilized. This is our mission. And the best men of your country they are recommending. All the learned circle, they are coming. How can you defy us? If you have got brain . . . you are trying to brainwash. Actually you have no brain to . . . (indistinct) . . . how important it is, this movement. You are trying to brainwash. We are not brainwashing. We are giving you good brain. That is our mission, that you are so dull-headed we have come to give you good brain. Su-medhasaḥ . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). We have come to make you intelligent. Receive us well, for your benefit. Tell them like that. Bring one court case, and I shall sit . . . go and sleep there, and expose them, item by item. I know my case is strong. Hari-śauri: It's the strongest. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Yes. I will speak. If you cannot speak, I shall go and speak. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are a few Indians, I was just thinking, in America who are right at the top of the American scientific research. There is one Dr. Khorana, he won the Nobel Prize, and there are a few others who are right at the top of the . . . Prabhupāda: Where he is? Where he is? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All in America. They're at the top of the US space program. I think we should also approach these people who are . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Punjabis. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He won the Nobel Prize, you know. But I just remembered that there are few other Indians who are at the top of the US space program, so if we approach them . . . Prabhupāda: Now our this Svarūpa Dāmodara and others, they can also come. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should approach all these people and get them to take part in the petition. *Prabhupāda: That Bhavan's Journal, he did not dare to publish my statement. Everyone is combined to kill Kṛṣṇa. Everyone, all over the world. God . . . "There is no God," the scientists, these philosophers, the politicians—everyone. This is the only movement talking of God. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādī . Everywhere, impersonalists and zero: "There is no God." The zero- vādīs , they are little frank, but these rascals, nirviśeṣavādīs , "God has no head, no tail," they are dangerous. Zero- vādīs , they call Him zero, that's all right. That is . . . we can understand, they admit. But these rascals, zero . . . nirviśeṣavādīs, "Yes, there is God, but He has no head, He has no tail, He has no hand, He has no leg." Then what He has? They are greatest cheater, more dangerous than the śūnyavādīs. That is the version of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Vedinām mayima bhogda hoila nāstik , vedāśraya nāstikavāda bhogda ki hodi . These Buddhists, they do not care for the Vedic injunction, we can understand. But these Śankarites, they take shelter of the Vedas and they say: "There is no form of God." And that is being followed, the so*-called Hindus. All the invitees in that meeting, Bajaj meeting, they are all nirviśeṣvādī . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Impersonalists. Prabhupāda: All impersonal. Jagadīśa: That's why there may be a problem in getting Indian people to support our movement. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: If there is any trouble in getting Indians . . . *Prabhupāda: No, we don't care for Indians and Europeans. We care for Kṛṣṇa, that's all. I didn't care for anyone. I simply care for Kṛṣṇa, that's all. And my Guru Mahārāja, that's all. I went to your country not supported by Indians and Europeans. I went on the order of my Guru Mahārāja and under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa's protection, that's all. That is wanted. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). We want two favors: one from guru , one from Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want anyone's favor. So you have to fight. You cannot fight immaterialists. Kṛṣṇa never said, "Arjuna, oh, you are My devotee, you sit down and sleep, I shall take care of . . ." He never said that. (laughs) So if you take that position, "We are devotees, nonviolent, and let us sleep," that is not . . . fight, with all the resources that we have got. That is wanted. That you cannot stop. (loud voices in background) They are coming, going, how you can stop? People, public, they are coming, going here. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They all want to come and have a look at the guesthouse. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. So prepare for fight. Don't be afraid. Arjuna, they were five brothers, and the other party, one hundred brothers. Therefore Dhṛtarāṣṭra was confident, that "What are these five brothers without any help? We have ruined them. They were in the forest for thirteen years, lost all connection, no kingdom. I have got government in hand, and my sons are . . . hundred sons, and we are well equipped. How . . .?" Therefore the . . . bring that Bhagavad*-gītā , dṛṣṭvā tu pāṇḍavāṇīkam (BG 1.2). Jagadīśa: Dṛṣṭvā tu pāṇḍavāṇīkaṁ vyūḍhaṁ duryodhanas tadā . Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda: If someone wants to come, let him come. Akṣayānanda: Ācāryam . . . Prabhupāda: Why you have refused him? Let him come. Akṣayānanda: Ācāryam upasaṅgamya rājā vacanam abravīt (BG 1.2). Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the translation? Akṣayānanda: "Sañjaya said, 'O King, after looking over the army gathered by the sons of Pāṇḍu, King Duryodhana went to his teacher and began to speak the following words.' " Prabhupāda: Aiye, aiye. (Please come, please come.) (guests arrive) (break) Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is to preach. So you join us. Why should you be limited within Vṛndāvana? The people are taking this, and there is . . . now they are feeling the strength. The whole world is now combining against this movement. That means they are feeling the strength. Certainly it is not credit. Indian man: Certainly. *Prabhupāda: Don't say "certainly." You must come forward to fight. If you simply sit down in Vṛndāvana, then Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is not being carried. He says, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126), that is His mission. So this attempt has been made in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, so why other parties, they should sit down and simply . . .? I am a teeny person, single-handed we shall fight. Why you should see the fun and do not fight? That I am asking you. I shall fight, and you shall see the fun. Indian man: No, no. Prabhupāda: What is this? Now, you appear to be educated gentlemen, you combine, all the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava gosvāmīs , and come with me to fight, because there is a world fight now. They are threatened. Their whole civilization is threatened by this movement. That is the position now. Whole Europe and America, they are combining. They are intelligent person, they see that this movement is spreading like epidemic. They have admitted, some of their party, "If this movement is allowed to advance, then some day they will take our government." They have expressed that feeling. And now they are preparing to fight out. These . . . all these fathers of these young men, they are combining together to charge me that I am kidnapping their boys. So it is a serious situation. You should not see simply the fun and claim to belong to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Now you should come out to fight. Am I wrong or right? Indian man: You are right. *Prabhupāda: Then do that. Hold a meeting among the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas here, and I will explain the position. Now we should combine together and fight. As soon as you introduce something strong, there will be fight. There will be fight. Even Kṛṣṇa had to see the fight, Kurukṣetra. Dharmakṣetre kurukṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). The fight must be there, yuyutsavaḥ . So if you belong to Caitanya Mahāprabhu's party, then you should come out to fight. Whatever done is done, and it is done single*-handed. Nobody has helped me, even not my Godbrothers. These American boys, they have helped me. They understood the philosophy and they helped me. Rather, they are criticizing that I am making these American boys sannyāsī and giving them sacred thread. They are criticizing. What is your opinion? Indian man: I don't think that's a . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They criticize me. They do not recognize this temple as a Vaiṣṇava temple. They say angrej temple. (laughter) Indian man: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . there will be whole integration towards Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jīvera 'svarūpa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Why they criticize? We are trying that. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Why the pāpa-yonis should be neglected? So this thing have been done single-handed, now you should come forward, all, combine together. Ye aap log acchi tarah se sochiye aur combined hoiye, aaiye hamare saath me. (You people think nicely and combine together, come along with me.) There is a great fight. We are just planning how to fight. Simply katha vachak hone se kya hoga, pet palan ho sakta hai, isme kuch vishesh kaam nahi hai. (What is the use of just being a preacher? You can earn for your stomach, but there is nothing special in this.) Now when there is fight, it requires real strength. Now their fight is confronting us because they are feeling the strength. Their whole civilization is threatened. We are recommending no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling and no meat-eating. But this is the basic principle of modern civilization. So the foundation is threatened. Theoretically they are taking that "If these four things are stopped, then where is our civilization? Where we stand?" Meat-eating, they have all over the world millions of slaughterhouse. So if these millions of slaughterhouse is stopped, then where they stand? They are threatened like that. *Indian man: Their whole set*-up, their whole economy is being threatened. Prabhupāda: The millions of liquor manufacturers, breweries, millions of gambling houses, so . . . cigarette factories. So theoretically, if this movement is successful, then whole civilization is finished. So they are now looking . . . because these young men have taken seriously, so they are threatened and they are making a strong party to fight with us. They cannot safely say that against this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement they are threatening a charge against my movement or me that I am kidnapping young men. That is their threatening. I am not kidnapping. I am not going to their house to kidnap. They are coming to us. Ye sab position hai. Aaplog sab Vrndavana me gosai log sab hain, humko thoda sa help kijiye. (This is the position. You all in Vṛndāvana, there are Goswamis also there, help me a little.) *The gosvāmīs, they are śrī*-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau . Now prove. They are descendants. Now prove—come forward. Śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau . Simply sitting at home. And in Bengal there is Nityānanda-vaṁśa . What is Nityānanda-vaṁśa ? Nityānanda went forward before Jagāi-Mādhāi and He was hurt. Blood came out. Where is that Nityānanda- vaṁśa ? Fight between Jagāi-Mādhāi and Nityānanda . . . that is Nityānanda-vaṁśa , simply taking advantage of coming from Nityānanda-vaṁśa , "I have become guru . Give me your money," and sit down. "Let me enjoy life with my wife and children." That kind of Nityānanda-vaṁśa will not help. Come forward to fight. With this fighting is now here. (aside) You can show the newspaper clipping. Bahut big argument ho raha hai. (A big argument is going on to fight this.) First of all they thought that so many svāmīs and yogīs come, all rascals, they stay for some time and go away. Even Vivekananda. (laughter) So this is not a bogus movement, it is taking stand. So now they are threatened and they are combining together, especially the Christian . . . ye dekhiye kitna baseless hai accusation. Just see how baseless is their accusation. But in each heading there is "Kṛṣṇa." (break) . . . bring various charges against our . . . Devotee: Mind control, brainwashing. *Prabhupāda: You should go to see Viśvambhara Goswami also. Panch gavya usme cow mutra diya jata hai, to usi ko prominence de raha hai udhar milk hai usko nahi, ye sabse . . . aur sab gavya chod diya, urine ka taste hai ye sab chal raha hai. ye sab bada fight hai aap log aiye, sahyog kijiye. Aaplog jo actual battlefield me jana chahte hain usko hum leke jayenge. Aaplog tayyar hoiye ladai karne ke liye. Aisi baat nahi hai ki hum nahi ja sakte, wo sab hum . . . aaplog jo bheed hai wo sab tayyar hoiye. (In the pancha gavya , cow urine is added, so prominence is being given for that. There is milk from cows, they are not bothered by all this . . . all the other products from cows they have ignored, there is the taste of urine. All this is going on. This is a big fight, you people come and support us. Those of you who want to go to the actual battlefield, we will take you all. You all be prepared to fight. It is not that we cannot go, all that we . . . you as a crowd be prepared.) This is fortunate that you have come in this moment. So I'll give you this inspiration. Now combine together all Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs. Kṛṣṇa cult is for everyone, either Gauḍīya or Rāmānuja or everyone. Now all of you should come forward. That you do. Admitting kijiye, ye sab ho raha hai Krishna conscious movement ko cut down karne ke liye sab combine ho rahe hain. aap kya chahte hain ki hum udhar defeat ho karke vapas laut ke aaye. To aaplog thoda help kijiye. (You admit that all this is going on, they are trying to cut down the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement and they are all combining. What do you want, that we are defeated there and return back? So you people must help.) They are concerned with the Kṛṣṇa cult. Kṛṣṇa cult means all the ācāryas , all the ācāryas , either Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka or anyone, they should combine together. Abhi ghar me baith kar kaam nahi chalega. hamara guru maharaj decide kiya, wo bahut dheet hai kehte hain (Now sitting at home we cannot achieve anything. My Guru Maharaja decided, he is very stubborn, it is said.) Mana! Tumi kiser vaishnav? Pratisthar tare nirjaner ghare tava harinam kebol kaitav. (Mind, what kind of devotee are you? For cheap adoration you are sitting in one solitary room and chanting, is simply cheating.) Do you understand Bengali? (Humare vaishnav hain kahin bahar nahi jate hain aur ghar baithkarke Haridas Thakur ka nakal karte hain. (Our Vaisnavas are there, they don't go out anywhere, and they sit at home and imitate Haridas Thakur.) (aside) Why you are talking? It is not very important. It is for him. It is a very bad habit. So we should be very alert in this point. All the Vaiṣṇavas of different sampradāyas , especially Gauḍīya sampradāya , you should come forward to fight this. They are gathering their strength. We should gather our strength. Fight. Kṛṣṇa never said that "Don't fight." Never said, Arjuna that, "You are My devotee, you don't fight. You are very good gentleman, nonviolent, and I shall do everything for you." Never said that. Kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samu . . . (BG 2.2) Viṣame samupasthitam . "Now there is a great dangerous fight, why you are saying like a nonsense," anārya*-juṣṭam , "like non-Aryan?" To ye fight mauzood hai dekhiye, have prasadam. to aaplog sab aiye, hum to akele hain. (So this fight is present, have prasadam . So you people come together, I am all alone.) This fight is another good news, that they are feeling the strength. Otherwise they would not have prepared to fight. Formerly they were thinking that so many svāmīs and yogīs come, come and go. But now they are feeling the strength, they charging that their young men are being kidnapped. It is strong party. And these boys, they have taken to Vaiṣṇava principles, their parents have tried to take them back and induce them to eat meat and according . . . they deny. This is also tried. I have got many disciples, they are coming out very rich family, rich father. So one of the fathers called his son that "I am old man. The business is dwindling. You come and take . . ." So I told him that, "You go. Why not take your father's business and use it for Kṛṣṇa?" So he went, on my order. The father wanted him to eat meat. So he denied, that "I cannot do that. I can help in your business, but I cannot accept your way of life. That is not possible." Then the father saw, "Then he is lost, useless. If he's not adopting our life . . ." So there, that one father; *now the all fathers have combined, that "Our children are now lost. They do not come home, what to speak of adopting again our way of life." They cannot accept the way of life, meat*-eating and . . . that is not possible. That they're finding dangerous. And other movement they join and they come back. They remain what they are. Simply they say that, "I belong to this grouping." But our is different. Not only he belongs to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, but a different type of life. (reads something) Hmm. Give it. They have taken . . . (indistinct) . . . there are many, many groups like that. Hari-śauri: This is New York. Prabhupāda: Chanting in the street. Isko kuch upay kijiye. (Find some solution for this.) What do you want to do? Propose. Hold a meeting of all the Gosvāmīs. You take the leading part. Go to Viśvanātha Goswami. If you like, he can go with you to see others, "This is the position. You come and join." What do they say? Indian man: I . . . (indistinct) . . . contacted them, call a meeting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately. Indian man: How long you are staying here? Prabhupāda: I will stay if you hold immediately meeting in this temple. We have got enough space here. First of all you see some leading gosvāmī , and then you chalk out how to fight. All the sampra . . . now it is question of Kṛṣṇa cult, it is not only Gauḍīya. So take gosvāmīs , some of you, and meet all the leaders and hold a meeting, immediately arrange. And explain the whole situation. Let us combine. And those who are educated, they should go. We shall arrange for their all expenditure. It doesn't matter. Fight. "This is a genuine cult. If you discriminate, that is discrimination against religion, cult. We are accepting everyone, but it is a genuine cult. You also Christian, you accept anyone; why you say it is not genuine?" That we have to prove. There the Hindus and Indians who are there, they will also join. So immediately hold a meeting. It is very serious situation. Aap leading part lijiye. Aur jo goswami hain, aur sab jo jo hain sab combine hoke chaliye sab apko hum leke jayenge. (You take the leading part. And the Goswamis and others, who are all combined and come with us, we shall take all of you.) This is genuine movement. Why the American government should be discriminating against a genuine religious sect, Kṛṣṇa? Make this company. (aside) Prasāda , give him prasāda . Very seriously deliberate. And you go with him. We have got any car? Hari-śauri: Not right now. Not at the present moment. (aside) Haṁsadūta's van here? Prabhupāda: Where our car has gone? Akṣayānanda: Bareilly. They have program in Bareilly. Prabhupāda: When? Akṣayānanda: Two days ago they went. Prabhupāda: No, when the program is? Akṣayānanda: Now it's going on. Prabhupāda: Going on. Akṣayānanda: Mmm. Prabhupāda: When they will come back? Akṣayānanda: About one week, one and a half weeks. Prabhupāda: So we can ask them to come back. The car will be required both here and there. Akṣayānanda: Okay. That's easy enough. I can do it. Prabhupāda: Mmm. Or any other car available? Hari-śauri: (indistinct) . . . Krishna Chand. Akṣayānanda: No, he doesn't have one. Prabhupāda: No, Viśvan . . . there is always car. Hari-śauri: We have the motorcycle. Akṣayānanda: We can arrange elsewhere. It's okay. Prabhupāda: Hah. So(to sab se miliye. (meet everyone.) He will go with you, immediately. Meeting arrange kijiye. (Arrange the meeting.) Thank you very much. (pause) Prabhupāda: Combine together in Vṛndāvana. Fight . . . without fight where is life? If there is no fighting, then what is that life? That is dead stone. Fight must be there. Kṛṣṇa's whole life is fighting from the very birth. His father carried Him to Gokula where He is still living, and He fell down from the Yamunā and . . . just born, fighting began. Just born. And at Yaśodāmayī's house, Nanda Mahārāja's house, so many demons daily coming—Śakaṭāsura, Aghāsura, Bakāsura, Pūtanā, so on, so on, so on; ultimately Kaṁsa, when He was young boy. Vṛndāvana, so many asuras came. You have seen the pictures? Kṛṣṇa is fighting with the horse demon, with the bull . . . (indistinct) . . . fighting. If Kṛṣṇa is fighting, why not Kṛṣṇa consciousness the same thing? You cannot expect peaceful life. No, there must be fighting, then think, "That is Kṛṣṇa's presence, His fight." So this fighting means they're feeling the presence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Otherwise why they're arranging fight? Had it been an insignificant thing, there was no question of fighting. Mosha marte kaman daga. (Bringing a cannon to kill a mosquito.) to The gun, Howitzer gun? What is that? German, some gun they will go from this part of . . . this side of English Channel to other. Calais, the other side Calais? Devotees: Calais. Hari-śauri: Calais in France. Prabhupāda: Calais in France. So from France to other side English Channel, London, that's all right. Devotee: Artillery guns? Prabhupāda: Yes, they . . . Hitler invented. The gun will be fired from this side. Hari-śauri: Big, huge gun. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this gun is required not for killing a mosquito. (laughter) Big enemy. So they are preparing this big gun, and not the mosquito and this Mahesh Yogi and this yogī . You see? They are mosquitoes. For them they don't require any gun. So for big enemy, big gun, you see. They are preparing big gun, that means Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is big enemy. It is not mosquito. So you remain a big enemy, you don't become a mosquito. That is wanted. Immediately arrange this meeting here. Call all the Vaiṣṇavas, all. Apnader je party ache tader kichu bolun, Nimbarka sampradaya ke . . . nimbarka sampradaya tader gaudiyar sampradayer opor ekta dwesh ache. Janen ota? Khobor rakhen na? Amra je Caitanya Mahaprabhuke bhagavan boli ora ota swikar kore na. (Whatever parties you have, tell them something. To the Nimbarka sampradāya . . . Nimbarka sampradāya has envy on Gaudiya sampradaya . Do you know? You are not updated? They can’t accept that we call Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the Supreme Lord.) Indian man: Ekbar shunechi santa das babaji korten, r bakito keu na. (I heard once that Santa das babaji does, but not others.) Prabhupāda: Na sobai kore. Ora oi nie gaudiya vaisnavder criticize kore. Amrau kori je manushke bhagavan bolar jonno, eta kono aschorjer bishoy na. Jemon amra Ramkrishnake criticize kori je ekta manushke ekta bhagavan koye dilo. Sei hisebe ora Caitanya Mahaprabhukeu mone kore manush. Manushke bhagavan eta kono sampraday swikar korbena. Ora bole Caitanya Mahaprabhu manush . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, all of them. They criticize the Gaudiya Vaisnavas in this regard. We also criticize, this is not something strange. We do it because people consider the common man as the Supreme Lord. For example we criticize Ramakrishna, that they made a human being as the Supreme Lord. So they also think of Caitanya Mahāprabhu as a human being. No sampradāya will accept a human being as God. They say Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a human being . . . (indistinct) . . .) so far Kṛṣṇa is concerned, everyone. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . brainwash. Hari-śauri: But how can they take it that what we're doing is a bad thing? If we're training people how to avoid intoxication, how to avoid illicit sex, abortion, contraception . . . Prabhupāda: They say: "Why you should avoid? This is life. Why you are brainwashing?" One boy was there in the beginning . . . what was his name? Ranchor, his name, I gave him. So his father argued, "Why you are avoiding illicit sex? This is life! Why you are afraid? I'll give you car. I'll give you girls. You enjoy. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy?" His father was arguing. I think everyone's father argues like that. Lord Ronaldsay, he said: "Why you are prohibiting this thing? This is our life. It is impossible." Hari-śauri: The thing is in society still, even now, there are people who abstain from it. There are vegetarians or . . . Prabhupāda: There may be very few, one or two. That is insignificant. One million, two person, he is. At least especially in your country. Hari-śauri: The thing is that they don't claim that they are brainwashed. So we're a society where we're doing all these things, combinedly. Prabhupāda: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If the majority are fools and rascal, if you say something sane, then they'll ask . . . the man, the sane man, he is insane. He's crazy. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Then how to fight them? *Prabhupāda: That is the position. The only means is that in spite of all opposition you have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will cleanse. Otherwise there is no other way. Argument and logic, they have no brain to understand. It requires this transcendental method, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12), by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. You have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and let them . . . give the chance to hear. Then they will be able to catch it, what we are saying. Not directly. It is not possible. Hari-śauri: Then how are we going to fare in this court case? 'Cause in these court cases it's a question of presenting one side against the . . . Prabhupāda: No, philosophy is there. Court case means there is philosophy, there is logic. So for that we have got so many books. We can . . . but general mass of people, chanting. When there is court case we are prepared to defend. We have got . . . you are not fools. We can talk that what is the aim of life. They cannot say anything. The transmigration of the soul, the aim of life which we are discussing in our book, that's fact. How he can deny the transmigration of the soul from one body to another? And if that is accepted, the whole problem is solved. He does not know what kind of life he is going to get. Therefore they do not accept this philosophy. If once accepted, then next question: "What kind of life you are going to get, either to become a tree or a dog or a human being?" What arrangement you have done that you will get next life human being? Then the pious and impious activities comes one after another. The basic principle they are denying, "After this body is finished, everything is finished." Bhāsmi bhūtasya dehasya punar agama . . . "The body will be burned into ashes, and where is life? Who is coming? Who is going?" They do not see the soul. Their medical science cannot find out where is soul. How do they say the . . . the soul means intelligence, they say. Otherwise, do they say the animal has no soul? Why do they say? What is the . . . what is . . . "Man has soul," they say: "The animal has no soul." Jagadīśa: That's what the Christians say. The Christians say. Prabhupāda: So what is the symptom? Hari-śauri: Well, they . . . 'cause he, man, has reason and logic. Prabhupāda: That means reason and logic is soul. That is their idea. That is not soul. Intelligence, when I say: "You have got intelligence," it does not mean you are intelligence. "You have got intelligence," we say like that. We never say: "You are intelligence." So intelligence is not soul. The rascals, they do not know. Mistake. Nobody says: "You are intelligence." They say, "You are intelligent." Hari-śauri: Intelligence is something you possess. Prabhupāda: Yes. (someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So? (break) Hari-śauri: (looking in dictionary) "Brainwashing: clearing the mind of established ideas by persistent suggestion and indoctrination." *Prabhupāda: That is . . . (chuckles) We are doing that. They, they are under the impression, "Work hard, earn money and enjoy life." We say, "No. Don't work hard for sense gratification but work hard for self*-realization." Indoctrine. Hari-śauri: Yep well, any form of education is indoctrination. Prabhupāda: Indoctrinization. Yes. Any kind of education is. Hari-śauri: Whatever you teach someone, you teach according to whatever you see as the correct value. Prabhupāda: Yes. The child goes to the school. His brain is packed up, "I shall play all day." He likes that, to play, but it is indoctrinization that "No, you should read. You must become graduate." Hari-śauri: Yes. And whatever country he's born in, he has to learn the culture of that country; he's indoctrinated. Prabhupāda: Apart from that, education is required. The child wants to play, but we have to educate him that "No, play is not all. You have to be educated." Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Similarly, this animal life—eating, sleeping, mating—this is already there. No. We say: "Not only this, you have to realize God." This kind of brainwash is required. If we do not understand God, then what is the difference between you and dog? He knows how to eat, how to sleep. He doesn't require any high education . . . (indistinct) . . . how to eat. Everyone knows how to eat, how to use sex. Nobody requires any university education. Hari-śauri: Simply ignorance. Prabhupāda: When the animal enjoy sex, they know which part of the body has to be used. Hari-śauri: They don't have to be taught. Prabhupāda: It is not, there is no need of education. He knows it. And these rascals, they are presenting Freud's philosophy, sex. Just see how they are wasting time. *Hari-śauri: They have so many books now on so*-called sex education, so many of them. Prabhupāda: Simply wasting time. There is a story about this. One man was canvassing, hawking. Hawker? Hari-śauri: Yes, hawker. Prabhupāda: So he was, "Here is a book of cow protection," cow protection. He has written one book to take care of the cows. So when old man called him, "What you are selling?" Now, "I am selling this book." "What is that book?" "Maintaining the cow." So, "Why you are selling? First of all you give this book to your mother, because you are no better than cow, so she will learn how to give you protection." That means he wanted to impress upon him that, "Cow protection doesn't require any education. You have written a book? So you are such a rascal, cow intelligence. Better give this book to your mother. She will maintain you. Don't sell it. Everyone knows how to give cow protection." So similarly, this sex literature, there is no need of sex literature. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: Sex literature is there in Sanskrit also. That is how to restrict sex. For what purpose one should indulge in sex, that is called Kāma-śāstra . I have seen this Freud philosophy became so prominent that sometimes in the year . . . 1940s maybe, so one young woman was travelling, and another young man was travelling. So they began to discuss about sex very openly. And both of them unknown. Still, they engaged themselves in discussing the sex literature, without any shame. *Hari-śauri: Pseudo*-intellectuals. Prabhupāda: Huh. *Hari-śauri: Pseudo*-intellectuals. Shameless. Prabhupāda: Yes. Young boy, young girl, they began to discuss on sex openly as scientific. Hari-śauri: What is this scientific? (laughs) Prabhupāda: Scientific means after discussing for some time you propose that, "Let us enjoy sex." That's all. It is common thing in your country—unknown girl, unknown boy, and talk for some time, "Let us go to some restaurant," and then talk more intimately, and then sex. Hari-śauri: That's the whole social system. Prabhupāda: "Would you like to sex?" And who is the young man, young . . . who'll deny it? I know this. During ball dance they embrace one another, another's wife, another's husband, and in ball dance . . . or there are side rooms. Naturally they'll feel sex, and they go to the side room and discuss. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. Hari-śauri: The only reason they go to a dance is to pick up some woman for sex life. That's all. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Most of my friends used to go out specifically to find some woman to have sex. Prabhupāda: This dancing club means this. (long pause) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . brainwash. Hari-śauri: But how can they take it that what we're doing is a bad thing? If we're training people how to avoid intoxication, how to avoid illicit sex, abortion, contraception . . . Prabhupāda: They say: "Why you should avoid? This is life. Why you are brainwashing?" One boy was there in the beginning . . . what was his name? Ranchor, his name, I gave him. So his father argued, "Why you are avoiding illicit sex? This is life! Why you are afraid? I'll give you car. I'll give you girls. You enjoy. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy?" His father was arguing. I think everyone's father argues like that. Lord Ronaldsay, he said: "Why you are prohibiting this thing? This is our life. It is impossible." Hari-śauri: The thing is in society still, even now, there are people who abstain from it. There are vegetarians or . . . Prabhupāda: There may be very few, one or two. That is insignificant. One million, two person, he is. At least especially in your country. Hari-śauri: The thing is that they don't claim that they are brainwashed. So we're a society where we're doing all these things, combinedly. Prabhupāda: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If the majority are fools and rascal, if you say something sane, then they'll ask . . . the man, the sane man, he is insane. He's crazy. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Then how to fight them? *Prabhupāda: That is the position. The only means is that in spite of all opposition you have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will cleanse. Otherwise there is no other way. Argument and logic, they have no brain to understand. It requires this transcendental method, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12), by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. You have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and let them . . . give the chance to hear. Then they will be able to catch it, what we are saying. Not directly. It is not possible. Hari-śauri: Then how are we going to fare in this court case? 'Cause in these court cases it's a question of presenting one side against the . . . Prabhupāda: No, philosophy is there. Court case means there is philosophy, there is logic. So for that we have got so many books. We can . . . but general mass of people, chanting. When there is court case we are prepared to defend. We have got . . . you are not fools. We can talk that what is the aim of life. They cannot say anything. The transmigration of the soul, the aim of life which we are discussing in our book, that's fact. How he can deny the transmigration of the soul from one body to another? And if that is accepted, the whole problem is solved. He does not know what kind of life he is going to get. Therefore they do not accept this philosophy. If once accepted, then next question: "What kind of life you are going to get, either to become a tree or a dog or a human being?" What arrangement you have done that you will get next life human being? Then the pious and impious activities comes one after another. The basic principle they are denying, "After this body is finished, everything is finished." Bhāsmi bhūtasya dehasya punar agama . . . "The body will be burned into ashes, and where is life? Who is coming? Who is going?" They do not see the soul. Their medical science cannot find out where is soul. How do they say the . . . the soul means intelligence, they say. Otherwise, do they say the animal has no soul? Why do they say? What is the . . . what is . . . "Man has soul," they say: "The animal has no soul." Jagadīśa: That's what the Christians say. The Christians say. Prabhupāda: So what is the symptom? Hari-śauri: Well, they . . . 'cause he, man, has reason and logic. Prabhupāda: That means reason and logic is soul. That is their idea. That is not soul. Intelligence, when I say: "You have got intelligence," it does not mean you are intelligence. "You have got intelligence," we say like that. We never say: "You are intelligence." So intelligence is not soul. The rascals, they do not know. Mistake. Nobody says: "You are intelligence." They say, "You are intelligent." Hari-śauri: Intelligence is something you possess. Prabhupāda: Yes. (someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So? (break) Hari-śauri: (looking in dictionary) "Brainwashing: clearing the mind of established ideas by persistent suggestion and indoctrination." *Prabhupāda: That is . . . (chuckles) We are doing that. They, they are under the impression, "Work hard, earn money and enjoy life." We say, "No. Don't work hard for sense gratification but work hard for self*-realization." Indoctrine. Hari-śauri: Yep well, any form of education is indoctrination. Prabhupāda: Indoctrinization. Yes. Any kind of education is. Hari-śauri: Whatever you teach someone, you teach according to whatever you see as the correct value. Prabhupāda: Yes. The child goes to the school. His brain is packed up, "I shall play all day." He likes that, to play, but it is indoctrinization that "No, you should read. You must become graduate." Hari-śauri: Yes. And whatever country he's born in, he has to learn the culture of that country; he's indoctrinated. Prabhupāda: Apart from that, education is required. The child wants to play, but we have to educate him that "No, play is not all. You have to be educated." Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Similarly, this animal life—eating, sleeping, mating—this is already there. No. We say: "Not only this, you have to realize God." This kind of brainwash is required. If we do not understand God, then what is the difference between you and dog? He knows how to eat, how to sleep. He doesn't require any high education . . . (indistinct) . . . how to eat. Everyone knows how to eat, how to use sex. Nobody requires any university education. Hari-śauri: Simply ignorance. Prabhupāda: When the animal enjoy sex, they know which part of the body has to be used. Hari-śauri: They don't have to be taught. Prabhupāda: It is not, there is no need of education. He knows it. And these rascals, they are presenting Freud's philosophy, sex. Just see how they are wasting time. *Hari-śauri: They have so many books now on so*-called sex education, so many of them. Prabhupāda: Simply wasting time. There is a story about this. One man was canvassing, hawking. Hawker? Hari-śauri: Yes, hawker. Prabhupāda: So he was, "Here is a book of cow protection," cow protection. He has written one book to take care of the cows. So when old man called him, "What you are selling?" Now, "I am selling this book." "What is that book?" "Maintaining the cow." So, "Why you are selling? First of all you give this book to your mother, because you are no better than cow, so she will learn how to give you protection." That means he wanted to impress upon him that, "Cow protection doesn't require any education. You have written a book? So you are such a rascal, cow intelligence. Better give this book to your mother. She will maintain you. Don't sell it. Everyone knows how to give cow protection." So similarly, this sex literature, there is no need of sex literature. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: Sex literature is there in Sanskrit also. That is how to restrict sex. For what purpose one should indulge in sex, that is called Kāma-śāstra . I have seen this Freud philosophy became so prominent that sometimes in the year . . . 1940s maybe, so one young woman was travelling, and another young man was travelling. So they began to discuss about sex very openly. And both of them unknown. Still, they engaged themselves in discussing the sex literature, without any shame. *Hari-śauri: Pseudo*-intellectuals. Prabhupāda: Huh. *Hari-śauri: Pseudo*-intellectuals. Shameless. Prabhupāda: Yes. Young boy, young girl, they began to discuss on sex openly as scientific. Hari-śauri: What is this scientific? (laughs) Prabhupāda: Scientific means after discussing for some time you propose that, "Let us enjoy sex." That's all. It is common thing in your country—unknown girl, unknown boy, and talk for some time, "Let us go to some restaurant," and then talk more intimately, and then sex. Hari-śauri: That's the whole social system. Prabhupāda: "Would you like to sex?" And who is the young man, young . . . who'll deny it? I know this. During ball dance they embrace one another, another's wife, another's husband, and in ball dance . . . or there are side rooms. Naturally they'll feel sex, and they go to the side room and discuss. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. Hari-śauri: The only reason they go to a dance is to pick up some woman for sex life. That's all. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Most of my friends used to go out specifically to find some woman to have sex. Prabhupāda: This dancing club means this. (long pause) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . one hour. Pradyumna: Just after it gets dark. Prabhupāda: Huh? Pradyumna: Just after sun does down it gets a little dark. Prabhupāda: Then at what time it should be happened? You can inquire from other temple. Akśayananda: Last winter we had 6:30. Pradyumna: With the season it changes little. Prabhupāda: So is there any regulation given in the Pañjikā when? Pradyumna: Just . . . only regulation given for timing is that for Deity going to rest at noon. The Deity should take rest at noon, two yāmas after sunrise, and take rest in evening, one yāma after sunset. But it didn't say anything about the other āratis . But at six hours . . . Prabhupāda: The ārati , it is called sandhya ārati. Sandhya ārati means just in the evening. So when evening time is there . . . after sunset it is not evening. What is the time of sunset nowadays? Bring Pañjikā . Akśayananda: Around 5:30, isn't it? Prabhupāda: What is the time of sunset? Hari-śauri: It's about 5:30, approximately. Prabhupāda: 5:30, then one hour after. Then 6:30 is all right. 6:30 is all right. Akśayananda: Okay. So in that case, when would you like to come and visit? Prabhupāda: No, 6:30. Akśayananda: Now you're coming six till seven. Hari-śauri: 5:30 to 6:30? Prabhupāda: We shall come . . . 6:30–7:00, ārati will go on. So we can come half an hour before. Hari-śauri: 5:30. Prabhupāda: 5:30. 5:30. Instead of coming there at six, I come there 5:30. And one hour, then 6:30 begins. Make that like that. That will be very nice. So why you were not present in the meeting? Pradyumna: I was there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . That's all right. I think you can understand Hindi? No. Pradyumna: I am trying to. I can understand little bit. I am practicing. Prabhupāda: You should learn Hindi, Bengali. You are learning? Pradyumna: He talks . . . when he talks, he talks a little fast, when he reads the anuvāda . Prabhupāda: Who? Pradyumna: Ah, Prem Yogi. Prabhupāda: Ah, he is . . . but I am studying. He is translating nice. He is learned. Hari-śauri: We wanted to ask you about . . . he was training up Prem Yogi to do the editing, but there's no one to do the transcribing. We're probably going to . . . we'll have to send the tapes . . . Prabhupāda: Transcribing? No, why? Pradyumna: Why can't Pālikā do? Hari-śauri: She can do it? I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, she can do. Hari-śauri: Pālikā can do it? That will be all right, then. Prabhupāda: You also learn. Hari-śauri: Typing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: In case there is none, you should do. Pradyumna: Pālikā's done it before. Prabhupāda: No, Pālikā can do. I know that. Akśayananda: She is expert. *Prabhupāda: She is expert in typing. Amongst the women, she is expert typist. She is expert in so many things. Only defect is that she is woman. (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa says, striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyaḥ : "Never mind woman. If she is devotee, she also comes to Me." Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā , "no one barred." Especially naming striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśya te 'pi yānti parām ( BG 9.32). Everyone is to be . . . Kṛṣṇa is so kind. There is no restriction. Everyone is open to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya*-nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). This is open to all living entities. There is no restriction. And so long this body is there, material, there is distinction between this and that. Otherwise, when you come to the platform of spiritual understanding, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18), then there is no restriction. Higher, lower, this, that, so many. Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). So any newspaper propaganda against us? No. One complaint is standing, that with our Life Members and others, subscriber, they always complain they are not getting paper, they are not getting book. That is the general complaint. Akśayananda: They send regularly. We are sending. But many times the mail is stolen, magazines, Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Akśayananda: Yes, it is very difficult. Prabhupāda: Because there are so many nice picture. I have seen. When I was printing my books in a Delhi press, so one peon was coming there to work part time as compositor. So his mailbag he will put somewhere in the press, and he will being composing. And all other compositors, they'll check the mail bag, and if something is attractive, they will take. I have seen it. Our magazine is so . . . Akśayananda: It's so beautiful. Prabhupāda: . . . full of pictures, so naturally, as soon as they . . . the pictorial and . . . they take it. Akśayananda: Yes, that's the trouble. So we have a system in some towns. We find one member who is very much liking us, and we send all the magazines to him, and he goes, sends his . . . given by hand, to all the other members in that city. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Akśayananda: We are doing that in some cities, but we don't have in all cities such a system. That system works. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? Some are living ten miles from him. It is not possible. No, that is happening in India, not in other countries. In your country the peons are very responsible. Akśayananda: Yes, the post office is also very good. *Prabhupāda: Here they never satisfied. This is the modern mentality. Nobody is satisfied with his income. He wants more money. And for that purpose he can do anything rascal. I have seen it. This peon puts his bag without any responsibility. Letters are strewn, and maybe some letters stolen. Who can say? And he came to earn some money. For some time he'll compose and get some labor. And in Calcutta I have seen all the office peons, they are sleeping in Dalhousie Square, the peon book as the pillow, for hours together. And when they, after distributing, when they return to the office it is going to be closed. And if they are asked explanation, "Why you are so late?" "Oh, he was not there. I had to wait three hours," and so on, so on, so on. Everyone is dishonest. Nobody is working honestly, especially in India, because poverty*-stricken. If they can sleep two hours he thinks that he has made some profit. Formerly people were God conscious. They did not like to cheat that, "God will be displeased." Now they don't believe in God, so they can do anything. Akśayananda: Now that we've become devotee . . . Prabhupāda: "Everyone is God." Akśayananda: . . . if we sleep for two hours we think we have wasted two hours. *Prabhupāda: That should be. Sleeping is waste of time. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau : we have to conquer over eating and sleeping and mating. Hari-śauri: Just the opposite to the karmīs . They want to increase their eating. *Prabhupāda: Formerly, when I was in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple, there was a khol manufacturer here. Is he here still? Akśayananda: Khol manufacturer? Prabhupāda: He supplied me khol very nice, very big. This khol was taken to Germany or . . . Akśayananda: What was his name? Prabhupāda: I forgot. Akśayananda: There is one man here. Prabhupāda: In here? Akśayananda: One man is here, but I don't know if it's the same one. Prabhupāda: Can you call him? Akśayananda: Yes. I think he's just a repairman though. Prabhupāda: Whatever he may be. Yes. We must have very good khol . You have no good khol . Akśayananda: I had one under repair. I had two under repair with him. But he takes a long time. I am waiting now for repair. Prabhupāda: So you can call him. Akśayananda: Okay. You'd like to meet him? Prabhupāda: Yes. If the same man, then I can ask him to prepare some khol . Akśayananda: Ours get damaged. Hari-śauri: The shells or . . .? Akśayananda: They break them so easily. They cannot control them. The shell, the skin, anything, always break. Hari-śauri: You should make some padded covers for them. See they get some padded cover. Prabhupāda: Who is doing that? Everyone is irresponsible. Akśayananda: Even with that, they break. Hari-śauri: But at least it helps the chances they'll survive. Prabhupāda: The one thing is that they neglect that rings. That ring and the strap, if it is . . . that will never do. As soon as they khol . . . some rope, bās . Hari-śauri: Usually what breaks is that little leather loop. They have a small loop on each end. But that's what usually breaks. If you want to . . . Prabhupāda: No, if you make it nicely with chain. Akśayananda: I have made it even nicely with a cord, with a ring, and the proper straps. But they put it like this and like this, and they bang it the wrong way. This is my problem. I can't stop it, no matter what we do. Hari-śauri: You just bring them out for ārati and then have somebody take them back, and they won't get broken. Haṁsadūta was doing that with his mṛdaṅgas . Akśayananda: I was also doing that. Hari-śauri: The mṛdaṅgas are in there all day long. Any karmī that comes in, they beat the drum and mess around. The little kids go in and they do the same thing. I've seen them. You should take them out of the temple. Let them be there for kīrtana and then take them away and store them in your room. There's no kartālas now, either, because everybody steals them. Prabhupāda: These two rooms can be used for keeping. Akśayananda: Kartālas are locked away every time, and the drums were done . . . that was done until they were broken. Hari-śauri: Or you can just put them in the tourist room. They'll be safe. Or in the pūjārī room. Akśayananda: Yeah, I'll arrange for that. Prabhupāda: Everything depends on organized management. (pause) Prabhupāda: Give some . . . Akśayananda: Shall I put . . . some gentlemen, some bābājīs , are coming now, from Mathura. Prabhupāda: Aiye, aiye. Betiye . Akśayananda: May I help Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Betiye . (end) Prabhupāda: . . . one hour. Pradyumna: Just after it gets dark. Prabhupāda: Huh? Pradyumna: Just after sun does down it gets a little dark. Prabhupāda: Then at what time it should be happened? You can inquire from other temple. Akśayananda: Last winter we had 6:30. Pradyumna: With the season it changes little. Prabhupāda: So is there any regulation given in the Pañjikā when? Pradyumna: Just . . . only regulation given for timing is that for Deity going to rest at noon. The Deity should take rest at noon, two yāmas after sunrise, and take rest in evening, one yāma after sunset. But it didn't say anything about the other āratis . But at six hours . . . Prabhupāda: The ārati , it is called sandhya ārati. Sandhya ārati means just in the evening. So when evening time is there . . . after sunset it is not evening. What is the time of sunset nowadays? Bring Pañjikā . Akśayananda: Around 5:30, isn't it? Prabhupāda: What is the time of sunset? Hari-śauri: It's about 5:30, approximately. Prabhupāda: 5:30, then one hour after. Then 6:30 is all right. 6:30 is all right. Akśayananda: Okay. So in that case, when would you like to come and visit? Prabhupāda: No, 6:30. Akśayananda: Now you're coming six till seven. Hari-śauri: 5:30 to 6:30? Prabhupāda: We shall come . . . 6:30–7:00, ārati will go on. So we can come half an hour before. Hari-śauri: 5:30. Prabhupāda: 5:30. 5:30. Instead of coming there at six, I come there 5:30. And one hour, then 6:30 begins. Make that like that. That will be very nice. So why you were not present in the meeting? Pradyumna: I was there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . That's all right. I think you can understand Hindi? No. Pradyumna: I am trying to. I can understand little bit. I am practicing. Prabhupāda: You should learn Hindi, Bengali. You are learning? Pradyumna: He talks . . . when he talks, he talks a little fast, when he reads the anuvāda . Prabhupāda: Who? Pradyumna: Ah, Prem Yogi. Prabhupāda: Ah, he is . . . but I am studying. He is translating nice. He is learned. Hari-śauri: We wanted to ask you about . . . he was training up Prem Yogi to do the editing, but there's no one to do the transcribing. We're probably going to . . . we'll have to send the tapes . . . Prabhupāda: Transcribing? No, why? Pradyumna: Why can't Pālikā do? Hari-śauri: She can do it? I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, she can do. Hari-śauri: Pālikā can do it? That will be all right, then. Prabhupāda: You also learn. Hari-śauri: Typing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: In case there is none, you should do. Pradyumna: Pālikā's done it before. Prabhupāda: No, Pālikā can do. I know that. Akśayananda: She is expert. *Prabhupāda: She is expert in typing. Amongst the women, she is expert typist. She is expert in so many things. Only defect is that she is woman. (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa says, striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyaḥ : "Never mind woman. If she is devotee, she also comes to Me." Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā , "no one barred." Especially naming striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśya te 'pi yānti parām ( BG 9.32). Everyone is to be . . . Kṛṣṇa is so kind. There is no restriction. Everyone is open to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya*-nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). This is open to all living entities. There is no restriction. And so long this body is there, material, there is distinction between this and that. Otherwise, when you come to the platform of spiritual understanding, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18), then there is no restriction. Higher, lower, this, that, so many. Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). So any newspaper propaganda against us? No. One complaint is standing, that with our Life Members and others, subscriber, they always complain they are not getting paper, they are not getting book. That is the general complaint. Akśayananda: They send regularly. We are sending. But many times the mail is stolen, magazines, Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Akśayananda: Yes, it is very difficult. Prabhupāda: Because there are so many nice picture. I have seen. When I was printing my books in a Delhi press, so one peon was coming there to work part time as compositor. So his mailbag he will put somewhere in the press, and he will being composing. And all other compositors, they'll check the mail bag, and if something is attractive, they will take. I have seen it. Our magazine is so . . . Akśayananda: It's so beautiful. Prabhupāda: . . . full of pictures, so naturally, as soon as they . . . the pictorial and . . . they take it. Akśayananda: Yes, that's the trouble. So we have a system in some towns. We find one member who is very much liking us, and we send all the magazines to him, and he goes, sends his . . . given by hand, to all the other members in that city. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Akśayananda: We are doing that in some cities, but we don't have in all cities such a system. That system works. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? Some are living ten miles from him. It is not possible. No, that is happening in India, not in other countries. In your country the peons are very responsible. Akśayananda: Yes, the post office is also very good. *Prabhupāda: Here they never satisfied. This is the modern mentality. Nobody is satisfied with his income. He wants more money. And for that purpose he can do anything rascal. I have seen it. This peon puts his bag without any responsibility. Letters are strewn, and maybe some letters stolen. Who can say? And he came to earn some money. For some time he'll compose and get some labor. And in Calcutta I have seen all the office peons, they are sleeping in Dalhousie Square, the peon book as the pillow, for hours together. And when they, after distributing, when they return to the office it is going to be closed. And if they are asked explanation, "Why you are so late?" "Oh, he was not there. I had to wait three hours," and so on, so on, so on. Everyone is dishonest. Nobody is working honestly, especially in India, because poverty*-stricken. If they can sleep two hours he thinks that he has made some profit. Formerly people were God conscious. They did not like to cheat that, "God will be displeased." Now they don't believe in God, so they can do anything. Akśayananda: Now that we've become devotee . . . Prabhupāda: "Everyone is God." Akśayananda: . . . if we sleep for two hours we think we have wasted two hours. *Prabhupāda: That should be. Sleeping is waste of time. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau : we have to conquer over eating and sleeping and mating. Hari-śauri: Just the opposite to the karmīs . They want to increase their eating. *Prabhupāda: Formerly, when I was in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple, there was a khol manufacturer here. Is he here still? Akśayananda: Khol manufacturer? Prabhupāda: He supplied me khol very nice, very big. This khol was taken to Germany or . . . Akśayananda: What was his name? Prabhupāda: I forgot. Akśayananda: There is one man here. Prabhupāda: In here? Akśayananda: One man is here, but I don't know if it's the same one. Prabhupāda: Can you call him? Akśayananda: Yes. I think he's just a repairman though. Prabhupāda: Whatever he may be. Yes. We must have very good khol . You have no good khol . Akśayananda: I had one under repair. I had two under repair with him. But he takes a long time. I am waiting now for repair. Prabhupāda: So you can call him. Akśayananda: Okay. You'd like to meet him? Prabhupāda: Yes. If the same man, then I can ask him to prepare some khol . Akśayananda: Ours get damaged. Hari-śauri: The shells or . . .? Akśayananda: They break them so easily. They cannot control them. The shell, the skin, anything, always break. Hari-śauri: You should make some padded covers for them. See they get some padded cover. Prabhupāda: Who is doing that? Everyone is irresponsible. Akśayananda: Even with that, they break. Hari-śauri: But at least it helps the chances they'll survive. Prabhupāda: The one thing is that they neglect that rings. That ring and the strap, if it is . . . that will never do. As soon as they khol . . . some rope, bās . Hari-śauri: Usually what breaks is that little leather loop. They have a small loop on each end. But that's what usually breaks. If you want to . . . Prabhupāda: No, if you make it nicely with chain. Akśayananda: I have made it even nicely with a cord, with a ring, and the proper straps. But they put it like this and like this, and they bang it the wrong way. This is my problem. I can't stop it, no matter what we do. Hari-śauri: You just bring them out for ārati and then have somebody take them back, and they won't get broken. Haṁsadūta was doing that with his mṛdaṅgas . Akśayananda: I was also doing that. Hari-śauri: The mṛdaṅgas are in there all day long. Any karmī that comes in, they beat the drum and mess around. The little kids go in and they do the same thing. I've seen them. You should take them out of the temple. Let them be there for kīrtana and then take them away and store them in your room. There's no kartālas now, either, because everybody steals them. Prabhupāda: These two rooms can be used for keeping. Akśayananda: Kartālas are locked away every time, and the drums were done . . . that was done until they were broken. Hari-śauri: Or you can just put them in the tourist room. They'll be safe. Or in the pūjārī room. Akśayananda: Yeah, I'll arrange for that. Prabhupāda: Everything depends on organized management. (pause) Prabhupāda: Give some . . . Akśayananda: Shall I put . . . some gentlemen, some bābājīs , are coming now, from Mathura. Prabhupāda: Aiye, aiye. Betiye . Akśayananda: May I help Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Betiye . (end) (Conversation About Gurukula) *Prabhupāda: The modern education means . . . just see what is the disastrous condition. For 531 posts, three lakhs people have applied. How the unemployment . . . this application means they are all educated. Uneducated, they do not apply for any post. That means educated unemployed. This is India's so*-called education. (aside) Without light it is . . . you can open the door. (break) Jagadīśa: . . . I was finding out yesterday's paper . . . (break) First thing, I wanted to go over the daily schedule. According to the schedule, the boys get up between 3:30 and quarter to four. Prabhupāda: Why so early? Jagadīśa: Why 3:30 and quarter to four? That's what time we all get up. Prabhupāda: We are holding maṅgala-ārati at five. So why 3:30? Jagadīśa: Well, they do japa before maṅgala-ārati . Prabhupāda: No, no. It will be too early for them. They first of all . . . Jagadīśa: They're accustomed to getting up at . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: They've been getting up at that time for years. Prabhupāda: If they are accustomed, that is all right. But otherwise it is not needed, so early. When they go to sleep? Jagadīśa: At 8:15. Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is all right. Then is all right. At least they must have rest six hours, complete. Jagadīśa: Oh, they get more than that. Prabhupāda: Then it is . . . *Jagadīśa: Then they get ready, 02:45 bathed, dressed, by about 4:10. So they chant japa from 4:10 until five o'clock under the supervision of their teacher. Then ārati , tulasī worship. And after tulasī worship they again have japa up until guru*-pūjā , greeting the Deities. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: From the time tulasī worship is over until the time of greeting the Deities. Prabhupāda: How long it is? Jagadīśa: That's an hour and fifteen minutes. Altogether they have japa time amounting to just under two hours. Prabhupāda: And who . . . they will . . . the small boys, they can devote so much time? Jagadīśa: Well, these are not small boys. These are . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, teachers. Jagadīśa: At least ten years, nine, ten years old. Prabhupāda: Still . . . Devotee: Nine years old to fourteen years old. Prabhupāda: They should be engaged in chanting, not sit down and japa. That will not be possible for them. Jagadīśa: The problem is that some of the boys are fourteen, fifteen, or thirteen but they should chant japa , because they are required to chant sixteen rounds a day. Many of them are initia . . . Prabhupāda: Sixteen rounds, it requires, utmost two hours, two and a half hours. Jagadīśa: Well, two hours is on the schedule, two hours and ten minutes. Prabhupāda: Chela bangiya . (laughter) (greeting someone) How are you? That's nice. Jagadīśa: So they have two hours and five minutes of japa . Dhanurdhara: Some boys that are younger, they make a vow to do less, and then they can study. *Jagadīśa: Some of the younger boys chant six or eight rounds instead of sixteen. They chant that much during that time and then they study. Then they attend the temple program, guru*-pūjā and Bhāgavatam class. And then after that, they go upstairs, wash their clothes and clean the āśrama . That takes them about an hour, to wash their clothes and sweep and cleanse the floor, cleanse the shower room, wash their clothes . . . Prabhupāda: Now, when they chant the mantras ? *Jagadīśa: Brahma*-saṁhitā ? Prabhupāda: Or any . . . Jagadīśa: Any mantra. At . . . right now they're chanting from nine until 9:30 in the morning with Yaśodānandana Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Not in the . . . early in the morning? Yaśodānandana: In the early morning I take some of the boys in the Deity room between 5:30 and six, the boys and the Deities. Prabhupāda: Deity means temple. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Deity? Means temple. What do you mean, "The Deity room"? *Yaśodānandana: Within the Deity room, when they are bathing the Deities, we are offering the prayers to the Deities, the Brahma*-saṁhitā and Īśopaniṣad . Prabhupāda: Why? Why? Deity room? Within the Deity room there is no need of chanting. Who told you this? There is no need. Eh? Within the Deity room? You told? Pradyumna: No. Prabhupāda: Then? *Pradyumna: Sometimes you . . . unless you said, for installation or at other times when the Deity is being bathed, to chant Brahma*-saṁhitā prayers. Prabhupāda: No. Within the Deity room there is no business. No business. Jagadīśa: When we hear the chanting, that's where it's coming from in the morning, in the early morning. Prabhupāda: Oh. They can chant outside, yes. The Deity bathing or whatever, dressing, may go on. You can chant not within the Deity room. That you can do outside. Then when their reading, writing begins? Jagadīśa: That begins at 10:15, after prasādam . They take prasādam at 9:30, and then at 10:15 their English class begins. Prabhupāda: Just after taking prasādam ? Jagadīśa: Yes. Fifteen minutes after. Prabhupāda: Hmm. What begins? *Jagadīśa: English class. That goes for one and a half hours. Then there's math class which goes for forty*-five minutes. *Prabhupāda: Not continually. They should be given a recess, ten minutes. Then again come to the class. And a class should not be more than forty*-five minutes. One class should not be continued more than forty-five minutes, then ten minutes recess, then begin another class. Jagadīśa: For the English program it is required, in order for them to have enough time to read and write, then they would require an hour and a half, so they would have two classes. Prabhupāda: In the meantime, one and half? Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You give ten minutes recess. Jagadīśa: And during the recess what should they do? *Prabhupāda: Nothing. They'll be free. Nothing to do. Recess means nothing to do. That is brain, I mean to say, rest. All continually you cannot do that. That is not good. Utmost, forty minutes or forty*-five minutes. Then give them ten minutes' freedom. Then begin another. Not more than forty to forty-five minutes at a time, reading, writing. Jagadīśa: After class, then, by 12:30 they bathe again, second time. Prabhupāda: They take prasādam first and then bathe? Jagadīśa: They bathe . . . they take prasādam at 9:00 in the morning, 9:30. Then they have class. Then after class is finished, then they bathe. Prabhupāda: After class they bathe? Jagadīśa: Around 12:30. Prabhupāda: Not needed. After prasādam they should not take bathing at least for four hours. Jagadīśa: Four hours. Pradyumna: They have a schedule where they have dāl , rice and sabjī and cāpāṭi at 9:30 in the morning. Is that what they have in the afternoon? Prabhupāda: Eh? So when they first take bathing? Jagadīśa: Uh, when they rise, at around four o'clock. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's fine. Then they take the prasādam at what time? Jagadīśa: 9:30. Prabhupāda: 9:30. So . . . Jagadīśa: We can take prasādam earlier. Prabhupāda: No, no, why earlier? Earlier, any breakfast? Jagadīśa: No. Prabhupāda: Why not? They are children. They must have some breakfast. Jagadīśa: They have three meals. One at . . . this is the way the temple program is scheduled. The temple eats at 9:30 in the morning, so the boys also get prasādam at that time because everyone eats the same . . . Prabhupāda: But early in the morning they should have some . . . at least munch sweetmeat, something like that. Bhagatjī: Like chewra . Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagatjī: Like chewra and curds, they can take, for example. After taking bath at one o'clock they should take little prasādam . Prabhupāda: Yes. Early in the morning, just after maṅgala-ārati , they can take something. They must take something. They are taking bathing at what time? Jagadīśa: In the morning? Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: Ten to four. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: Four o'clock. Prabhupāda: Four o'clock. So after maṅgala-ārati , the maṅgala-ārati prasādam should be given them, a little sweet. Yaśodānandana: (to other devotees) We hadn't agreed on that . . . (indistinct) Jagadīśa: Yes, the maṅgala-ārati sweets. Prabhupāda: Maṅgala-ārati sweets, they should be distributed amongst the children, little sweets. Then they can take 9:30 prasādam . Jagadīśa: Full prasādam . Prabhupāda: Yes. Then? Again they are taking bathing at what time? Jagadīśa: The scheduled next bathing is 12:30. Prabhupāda: Then what is the . . . 12:30, then? Jagadīśa: After bathing they take a little prasādam . Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. Then it is all right. Jagadīśa: Then at 1:30 they take some rest. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. How long? Jagadīśa: One hour. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Jagadīśa: Then they have Sanskrit class from 2:30 until four. Prabhupāda: Hmm. 2:30, four, that's all right. Jagadīśa: One and a half hours. So there should be a recess in between. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: That's one and a half hours, so there should be recess in between. Prabhupāda: Ten minutes at least. Jagadīśa: Then at four o'clock the chanting party leaves for the Yamunā procession. Prabhupāda: In process . . . that's nice. Jagadīśa: And they return by six for darśana in the temple room. Prabhupāda: No, let them return by 5:30. Jagadīśa: 5:30. Devotee (2): Can we have the class while we're there? So that we . . . 'cause it takes us . . . (indistinct) Jagadīśa: Well, we can adjust this but . . . because darśana begins at 5:30, they should be there by . . . Prabhupāda: No, darśana begins at five . . . Jagadīśa: 5:30. Prabhupāda: 5:30. Why? Devotee (2): It was at six o'clock in the evening. Originally it was at six o'clock. Prabhupāda: No, no. The darśana opens at five. Jagadīśa: No, when you come into the temple room, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Your darśana . Prabhupāda: No, no, my darśana is different. Public darśana . When the Deity room is opened? Bhagatjī: At five o'clock in the evening. Prabhupāda: That's it. Why do you say six? Jagadīśa: Uh, I meant that when the darśana period for yourself was at six. Prabhupāda: No, it should be 5:30. Jagadīśa: 5:30. Prabhupāda: General darśana is open at five. That's nice. Jagadīśa: So then the boys would return at 5:30 . . . Prabhupāda: I think it may be little earlier, no, half an hour. Bhagatjī: Half an hour it would be, because the ārati is beginning at 6:30 . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagatjī: . . . so the afternoon darśana would be at 4:30. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagatjī: That we had managed last year. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Jagadīśa: So the boys would come for the chanting and recitation of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: What time? Jagadīśa: 5:30 to 6:30. Prabhupāda: No, 5:30 we begin class. In that class they can chant. Jagadīśa: Kīrtana . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Jagadīśa: And then, at 6:30, there will be ārati and they'll stay for ārati . Then, after ārati , they take a little prasādam and then take rest. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That's all right. *Jagadīśa: And as far as everyone's duties are concerned, Rūpa*-vilāsa is the English teacher. He teaches English and math, and, of course, Pradyumna teaches the Sanskrit program. And Dhanurdhara Prabhu has been . . . he works in the āśrama , overseeing the boys . . . Prabhupāda: Taking care. Jagadīśa: Yes. And Yaśodānandana Mahārāja will . . . Prabhupāda: Recitation. Jagadīśa: Recitation. Yaśodānandana: And I also help with getting the boys through japa and kīrtana and getting them more enthusiastic. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Jagadīśa: It's nice to have a sannyāsī involved. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jagadīśa: He can be a good example. Prabhupāda: Very good. Jagadīśa: And Bhagatjī, grandfather. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: For feeding. Feeding. Give them sumptuous food so that they may become healthy, nice food. (laughter) Yes. That is also wanted. Children, they must eat sufficiently. Not overeat. Even overeat, that is not wrong for children. And that will be exercise, by going to Yamunā and coming. That will be bodily exercise. This is nice. Do that. Strictly follow. There is no scarcity of space there. Yes. Vṛndāvana is holy place. And there is no government interference, so increase it. Bring more student from all over the world. Then it will be unique. And you also make scheme to get Indian children from aristocratic family. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga*-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate ( BG 6.41). Those who are born in high-class, rich family or Brahmin family, they are not ordinary. But there is no Brahmin family now but the richer section, they can be induced to send their boys to learn Sanskrit and English and Bhagavad-bhakti . They can do business, and whatever they like, they can do later on. But these things, they should be . . . father, mother should be careful. Iska koi program banao, acha ghar ka ladka sab aye. Unko to khane pine ka koi abhav nahi hai. Wo thoda Bhagavad-bhakti sikh le, thoda Sanskrit sikh le, thoda English sikh le, usko kya . . . (indistinct) . . . hai. (Make such a program that boys from aristocratic backgrounds come to the gurukula . They have no problem with food, shelter and clothing. Let them learn the science of devotional service to the Lord, a little Sanskrit, a little English . . . (indistinct) . . .) Bhagatjī: Bacche kya bahar se ayenge? (Can kids from outside join the gurukula ?) *Prabhupāda: Kahi se bhi aye, idhar to rahega aur idhar khayega. Kahi se bhi aye. Bahar se ayenge . . . (Let them come from anywhere. They will stay here so it doesn't matter where they come from . . .) just attract all good family, children. Jo ki parishram karke, (Those who earn by toiling very hard,) labour . . . working, they will have to live, they cannot. They cannot become a paṇḍita or spiritually advanced men. They have to work. But if the richer section, they get their sons good character, good devotee . . . Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, ko 'tha putreṇa jātena yo na vidyā na bhaktimān : "What is the use of such son who is neither devotee nor learned?" Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam : "What is the use of blind eyes? It is simply troublesome." So if the aristocratic family, they do not give education in spiritual line, they'll become all hippies, loafer, and drinking and wasting father's money. They should be informed. Usko to phokat me paisa milta hai, usko udayega, baith*-baithke sharab piyega aur usko to chahiye . . . (He gets money without any hard work so he will waste it, engage in drinking and require . . .) (break) I think there must be three, four classes. Bhagatjī: Three, four classes afterwards, but at present? Prabhupāda: Ah. Bhagatjī: If students are in great number, then we shall introduce—otherwise . . . Prabhupāda: Classes to be arranged according to the number of student increases. That's all. That shall be . . . Jagadīśa: Now there are two classes. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: There are two classes according to age. Prabhupāda: Kata, according to time and circumstance. Bhagatjī: In my opinion, Prabhupāda, there should be one period for Hindi classes. Prabhupāda: That's very nice. *Bhagatjī: Forty minutes, forty*-five minutes that will be very good for the children. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very good. That is essential. If the Indian students come, they will require some vernacular like that. Bhagatjī: Hindi class there should be. In Vṛndāvana they will . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Do that, Hindi. Bhagatjī: In Māyāpur there should be Bengali class. And Hindi and Bengali, two language are very close. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not any other language. Hindi is essential—must be compulsory, Hindi. That is State language. Jagadīśa: For the Western children also? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Everyone. Bhagatjī: You should find some time, adjust some time for Hindi. Prabhupāda: Hindi, Sanskrit, English compulsory. Bhagatjī: That's all. Then, afterwards we can make other, just elemental mathematics, arithmetic or just that, afterwards, when the regular studies go in the group. Now . . . (indistinct) . . . these three things. By learning Hindi they will . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And the government also will like that, that foreign students . . . Bhagatjī: If they can understand the language and they . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Hindi is essential. It is not difficult, the same principle as Sanskrit. Reading and writing, that's all. *Jagadīśa: So far as the financial situation, I've discussed with Bhagatjī, and it seems that the best idea is to open a separate gurukula maintenance account with co*-signers Bhagatjī and Rūpa-vilāsa, so that . . . because there's so much . . . Prabhupāda: So then some of them, they are getting money. Jagadīśa: Yes, the parents are sending money. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jagadīśa: Because with the temple there has been confusion. Prabhupāda: Now the temple, you can make separate account. Jagadīśa: We have one question about . . . there's one of the boys. His name is Jagaman, and he's a . . . he's a more or less a bad boy. He's had a bad background. His mother's a devotee, and she's a nice devotee, but he's very . . . he terrorizes the other boys. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Jagadīśa: He misleads them. He lies. Prabhupāda: How old he is? Jagadīśa: He's thirteen. Prabhupāda: So he cannot be . . . he must go back. We cannot spoil other children. *Rūpa*-vilāsa: They are being spoiled by him. Jagadīśa: I was thinking, to make an example of him, either we should beat him or send him back. Prabhupāda: Best thing will be send him back. He's incorrigible. Yaśodānandana: Personally I had that boy with me for two months when I went to South India preaching, and I thought it would be an asset to have a young boy, but he was so misbehaved that it was too much problem. And the same things that he was doing in the beginning with me, telling lies and misbehaving, he is still doing now, and he does not correct himself, never. He has no effort to better his behavior or his conduct. He does not chant his rounds. He rarely comes to the kīrtana , or else when he comes to the kīrtana , he does not chant. He simply plays and makes fun. And it's very . . . he has a very bad influence on the other boys. Prabhupāda: No, then he should be sent back. Or he can be sent to Bombay to work ordinarily. Or Hyderabad farm, like that. Let him work on the ground. Yaśodānandana: He speaks Bengali. That boy was in Bengal before, and he picked up Bengali a little bit. Prabhupāda: So he can go. Pradyumna: He's very intelligent, but he's just had a bad . . . Prabhupāda: So he was in Māyāpur? Yaśodānandana: Yes, he was in Māyāpur before. He knows Bengali. He can speak Bengali with us. Prabhupāda: So he can go with the Māyāpur preaching party as well. Yaśodānandana: We could send him with Bhavānanda Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be nice. He knows Bengali. Let him go to Bengal and keep him under Bhavānanda. Jagadīśa: I think that he'll be a problem wherever he goes. Prabhupāda: No, Bhavānanda will correct his problem. Jagadīśa: I think Bhavānanda wouldn't want to take him, because he knows he's a problem. *Rūpa*-vilāsa: Bhavānanda told me he did not want to see that boy again. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Rūpa*-vilāsa: Bhavānanda told me he did not want to see that boy again. Pradyumna: In Māyāpur he had some girl . . . Jagadīśa: In my opinion, the best thing is to make an example and beat him. Prabhupāda: Yes, send him to farm, work in the field. If he does not work, beat him. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ . Bhagatjī: Ek baat yaad a gayi. Pehle jo kuch crime karte the, to phasi ya kalapani. To kalapani me Singapore ki taraf ya Malaya phek dete the. Aap unko Hyderabad me bhej dete hai. (laughter) (I remember how criminals used to be sent for lifetime imprisonment or hung until death. For lifetime imprisonment, they were dispatched to Singapore or Malaysia. Similarly, you send them to Hyderabad.) (laughter) Prabhupāda: Ha. Hyderabad bhejo, usko kaam karao, usko matti khodne ka kaam do. Nahi kare to usko pito. Aise kya hai. (Yes. Send him to Hyderabad—make him work hard and till the ground and if he doesn't listen, then beat him.) Yaśodānandana: He was just in Hyderabad for that ceremony there, and he caused such disruption in the whole temple that I don't think they'd want him there. Jagadīśa: The thing is, if we beat him here and keep him here, then all the boys will straighten up because they will see that if they go bad, then this will be their punishment. Prabhupāda: As you think, you can do. But I wanted to engage in farm work, digging. Yaśodānandana: Yes, that is his propensity. Actually it's a fact when he was with me I would try to teach him *Īśopaniṣad* and your purports, which are so clear and simple, but after three or four times explaining the same thing, he would become angry to receive the instruction. Prabhupāda: No, no. He is meant for śūdra's work. (laughter) Yaśodānandana: And when that boy would be told to watch himself . . . Prabhupāda: You cannot expect that everyone is Brahmin . No. He has got śūdra mentality, so let him till the ground for Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). He is fit for tilling so let him till and produce grain for Kṛṣṇa. Jagadīśa: Hyderabad? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Hard work. He should be given hard work. This gurukula is for high, high*-class Brahmin , kṣatriyas , not for the vaiśyas and śūdras . (Bhagatjī laughs) No, everyone is required for Kṛṣṇa's service, but there . . . that I was describing today. There must be division. Don't put horse before a cart. Pradyumna: Race horse before the cart. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pradyumna: Race horse before the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that will not be nice. Bhagatjī: Vaiśya . . . log (. . . people) will have some betterment . . . Prabhupāda: Vaiśya is meant for kṛṣi . Indian man: If you don't teach vaiśyas for this gurukula then how do they do the accounts? Prabhupāda: No no, we are not taking vaiśyas by birth. Jagadīśa: Accounts is just a skill. Anyone can learn to do account. Indian man: No, vaiśya is special work. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, accounts are meant for kāyasthas , śūdras . (Indian man laughs) Vaiśyas are meant for producing grain and protecting cows. Yes. According . . . one Englishman used to say: "This clerical job means educated laborer, educated śūdra ." (laughs) Śūdra . . . actually the kāyasthas are counted amongst the śūdras . You know that? Bhagatjī: In Bengal kāyasthas is the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, Bengal. Mean in U.P. Bhagatjī: In U.P. kāyasthas are śūdras . *Prabhupāda: And original they are śūdras . The history of Bengali kāyasthas . . . they went with the Brahmins as servant. That is the history. And in Bengal the system is . . . jaat harale kayat. Jiska koi jaat ka thikana nahi chalta, wo kaastha ho gaya. Ye Bengal me aisa bola jata hai, jaat harale kayat . . . (if you lose your caste, then you are a kāyastha . One who cannot follow the principles of his respective varṇa or class, becomes a kāyastha . This is the system in Bengal.) Actually it is . . . if some low*-class man, he becomes rich, then he's taken into the kāyastha community. Anyone who cannot stick to the principle of caste system, he becomes a kāyastha . *Bhagatjī: Varṇa*-saṅkara . Prabhupāda: Ah yes. Jaat harale kayat. Ye Bengal me hai. (If you lose your caste, then you are a kāyastha . This is the system in Bengal.) Some of them are kṣatriyas and some of them . . . like that. But that is not essential. That is all gone. Now, if one cannot take education, he can be used in farm work, little hard work. *Jagadīśa: Bhakti*-kīrtana is another problem. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Jagadīśa: Bhakti*-kīrtana , Saurabha's boy. He is only eight, but he is becoming like a street boy. Prabhupāda: So let him go to farm working. Farm working is for suitable . . . Bhagatjī: He likes that. He'll play with cows. He likes dung. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? Jagadīśa: He likes dung. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Let him take care. He should take care. Therefore we must have all these engagement. He'll be encouraged to take care of the cows. Bhagatjī: But he's not in gurukula . How can you send him? He is with Saurabha. Saurabha left him for five days. Saurabha is keeping him. Prabhupāda: If the father takes care, that's all right. Otherwise he can go to Hyderabad. Hyderabad should be for gṛhasthas , for plowing, for growing, and flowers, like that. No education required. Bhagatjī: He is not interested in education. Not at all. Prabhupāda: No, no education . . . that is waste of . . . for such boys who are not interested, why they should be enforced, education? They are not meant for that. Education is for higher brain, sober brain. And not that everyone has to become literate. It is not required. He can do other work. Yes. Bhagatjī: Prabhupāda means that according to the nature, you engage them. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ . "You can do this? All right, do it. Why you should be forced to learn Sanskrit? Not necessary. Not necessary." Dhanurdhara: What of a boy who does the chanting nicely and the kīrtana nicely but doesn't do school work nicely? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dhanurdhara: What of a boy who does the japa very nicely and . . . Prabhupāda: Well, japa . . . whether his father is doing japa nicely, that is also doubtful, what to speak of children. Japa , children cannot . . . that should not be taken very seriously. Whatever he can do, that's all right. We should enforce, we should . . . but not that if he does not immediately, he should be rejected. No. *Jagadīśa: You've often said the first*-class intelligent men are the brāhmaṇas , second-class intelligent men are the kṣatriyas . . . *Prabhupāda: So we have to train like that, guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ , not that everyone should be Sanskrit scholar. Why? It is not necessary. There are so many other things. *Jagadīśa: The inclination depends on guṇa*-karma . *Prabhupāda: Shobai korbe jomidari, ke korbe mubedari. Sab zamindar ho gaya to phir mubedari kaun karega. (If everyone becomes a landlord then who will become the servant.) Although by nature we should not enforce something. We should see for which work he is suitable, you should engage him. And we must have all departments of work—the weaving department, the plowing department, the cow*-keeping department, the Sanskrit department, the English department, the trading department. We should have all the departments. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Jagadīśa: Head, arms, belly and legs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whichever suitable, that . . . one must be suitable for any of these. It is the guide's intelligence: for which purpose he is suitable, engage him, like that. That is required. Not that everyone has to become a big scholar in Sanskrit. That is not required. Let him come to gurukula , but if he is not suitable . . . gurukula , this . . . so far character is con . . . that is for everyone. Just like early rise in the morning, chanting, and going to the . . . what is the objection? Anyone can do it. That is practice. And for working, if he is not suitable for higher education, let him go to the farm, take care of the cows grow food, flowers, fruits, eat, and dance and chant. Chanting, dancing, everyone will take part. There is no doubt. Bhagatjī: How to mend him from lies? He speaks lies. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagatjī: How to mend him from lies? Prabhupāda: That is by your good association. What lies he tells, don't believe him at all. That's all. Take him that he speaks only lies. Then don't believe. Whatever he says, you force him to do. Take him that he speaks only lies. Why should you consult him? He's a liar. But see that he's working, that's all. Now we are getting so much land, we can develop. We can utilize everyone's service. That requires brain. Not that "He cannot do this, therefore reject him"—no, engage him in some other . . . Jagadīśa: One other point I want to make, and that is that until the construction is completed, I think we should wait . . . Prabhupāda: There is ample place now where can live. Jagadīśa: But I mean to bring more boys we should wait until the construction . . . Prabhupāda: Why? Let them come. It is already there. It is not that the guesthouse is all filled up. Let them come. Jagadīśa: As many as possible? Prabhupāda: Why not? Jagadīśa: Okay. *Prabhupāda: Let them come. And arrangement should be made when it is . . . if Vṛndāvana is too hot, at that time we can send them to Mahabaleshvara, or if we get that Madras place, that is very cooling, Nilgiri Hills. That will be good recreation for them. They should be kept quite comfortably and built up, their character, education. That is wanted. There is need of some good first*-class men, ideal men. The world is full of rogues and thieves and bad character. Ye jo Sarasvati vidyalaya, ye log kya kar rahe hai? (What are they doing, these Sarasvatī-vidyālaya people?) Bhagatjī: Shiksharthi nahi, vidyalaya khali padha hua hai Prabhupāda. (There are no teachers, the school is empty Prabhupāda.) Prabhupāda: To kyu hum log thoda le, hum log . . . (So why don't we acquire it, we can . . .) *Bhagatjī: Hume to aj . . . plan kye the . . . (indistinct) . . . panch che mahine ke liye le le. Char*-panch mahine ke liye bacche ate hai. (We had planned to acquire it for 5 to 6 months. Kids come here for 4 to 5 months.) *I just told you that building, that Śiśu*-vidyālaya, Sarasvatī *Śiśu*-vidyālaya, you saw it with Guṇārṇava? Jagadīśa: Yes. Bhagatjī: That's it. Prabhupāda asks about that. Jagadīśa: Oh. But they said no. Bhagatjī: Who said? Jagadīśa: Guṇārṇava went to see them, Mr . . . what's his name. Prabhupāda: You cannot send Guṇārṇava. He is not fit for this purpose. You should go yourself. Jagadīśa: Okay. *Prabhupāda: Kya wo padha hai, kya unka buddhi nahi. Hum log ko dede hum abhi Sarasvati vidyalaya bana de, ladki log ke liye. Sab lifeless hai. Kuch karega nahi aur kuch dusro ko karne ka sahaya nahi karega. Ab ye Dhanuka ka ye jo hai, kya kuch kaam nahi hota, padha hai. (What are they doing, don't they have any intelligence? Let them give it to us and make it into a real Sarasvatī*-vidyālaya, for the girls. They are all lifeless. They will neither do anything themselves nor help others to do something. This Dhanuka āśrama , what are they doing?) Bhagatjī: Sanskrit school hai, bacche padhte hai waha pe. Kal panchvi . . . (indistinct) . . . hui . . . (indistinct) . . . Dharma sangha, unka naam rakha hai Dharma sangha. (There is a Sanskrit school. Yesterday fifth grade . . . (indistinct) . . . they named it Dharma sangha .) Prabhupāda: Wo kya karte hai, baccho ke? (What do they do, those kids?) Bhagatjī: Bacche padhte hai sanskrit, bis marks ka exam dete hai . . . (Children study Sanskrit, write an exam of twenty marks . . .) Prabhupāda: Kitne bacche hai? (How many students are there?) Bhagatjī: Kafi hai. Pacchis tees ladke hai. (Quite a few. 25 to 30 boys are there.) Prabhupāda: Tab to thik hai. (Then it's okay.) Bhagatjī: Ha. Sanskrit padhate hai baccho ko. Unke kuch bacche Vaishnav bhi ho gaye hai, sadhu bhi ho gaye hai Vaishnav. (Yes. They teach Sanskrit to the kids. Some of them have become Vaiṣṇava saints.) Prabhupāda: Tab to thik hai. (Then it's okay.) (break) Jagadīśa: That's our report, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's our report. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Do that. Yaśodānandana: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) (Conversation About Gurukula) *Prabhupāda: The modern education means . . . just see what is the disastrous condition. For 531 posts, three lakhs people have applied. How the unemployment . . . this application means they are all educated. Uneducated, they do not apply for any post. That means educated unemployed. This is India's so*-called education. (aside) Without light it is . . . you can open the door. (break) Jagadīśa: . . . I was finding out yesterday's paper . . . (break) First thing, I wanted to go over the daily schedule. According to the schedule, the boys get up between 3:30 and quarter to four. Prabhupāda: Why so early? Jagadīśa: Why 3:30 and quarter to four? That's what time we all get up. Prabhupāda: We are holding maṅgala-ārati at five. So why 3:30? Jagadīśa: Well, they do japa before maṅgala-ārati . Prabhupāda: No, no. It will be too early for them. They first of all . . . Jagadīśa: They're accustomed to getting up at . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: They've been getting up at that time for years. Prabhupāda: If they are accustomed, that is all right. But otherwise it is not needed, so early. When they go to sleep? Jagadīśa: At 8:15. Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is all right. Then is all right. At least they must have rest six hours, complete. Jagadīśa: Oh, they get more than that. Prabhupāda: Then it is . . . *Jagadīśa: Then they get ready, 02:45 bathed, dressed, by about 4:10. So they chant japa from 4:10 until five o'clock under the supervision of their teacher. Then ārati , tulasī worship. And after tulasī worship they again have japa up until guru*-pūjā , greeting the Deities. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: From the time tulasī worship is over until the time of greeting the Deities. Prabhupāda: How long it is? Jagadīśa: That's an hour and fifteen minutes. Altogether they have japa time amounting to just under two hours. Prabhupāda: And who . . . they will . . . the small boys, they can devote so much time? Jagadīśa: Well, these are not small boys. These are . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, teachers. Jagadīśa: At least ten years, nine, ten years old. Prabhupāda: Still . . . Devotee: Nine years old to fourteen years old. Prabhupāda: They should be engaged in chanting, not sit down and japa. That will not be possible for them. Jagadīśa: The problem is that some of the boys are fourteen, fifteen, or thirteen but they should chant japa , because they are required to chant sixteen rounds a day. Many of them are initia . . . Prabhupāda: Sixteen rounds, it requires, utmost two hours, two and a half hours. Jagadīśa: Well, two hours is on the schedule, two hours and ten minutes. Prabhupāda: Chela bangiya . (laughter) (greeting someone) How are you? That's nice. Jagadīśa: So they have two hours and five minutes of japa . Dhanurdhara: Some boys that are younger, they make a vow to do less, and then they can study. *Jagadīśa: Some of the younger boys chant six or eight rounds instead of sixteen. They chant that much during that time and then they study. Then they attend the temple program, guru*-pūjā and Bhāgavatam class. And then after that, they go upstairs, wash their clothes and clean the āśrama . That takes them about an hour, to wash their clothes and sweep and cleanse the floor, cleanse the shower room, wash their clothes . . . Prabhupāda: Now, when they chant the mantras ? *Jagadīśa: Brahma*-saṁhitā ? Prabhupāda: Or any . . . Jagadīśa: Any mantra. At . . . right now they're chanting from nine until 9:30 in the morning with Yaśodānandana Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Not in the . . . early in the morning? Yaśodānandana: In the early morning I take some of the boys in the Deity room between 5:30 and six, the boys and the Deities. Prabhupāda: Deity means temple. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Deity? Means temple. What do you mean, "The Deity room"? *Yaśodānandana: Within the Deity room, when they are bathing the Deities, we are offering the prayers to the Deities, the Brahma*-saṁhitā and Īśopaniṣad . Prabhupāda: Why? Why? Deity room? Within the Deity room there is no need of chanting. Who told you this? There is no need. Eh? Within the Deity room? You told? Pradyumna: No. Prabhupāda: Then? *Pradyumna: Sometimes you . . . unless you said, for installation or at other times when the Deity is being bathed, to chant Brahma*-saṁhitā prayers. Prabhupāda: No. Within the Deity room there is no business. No business. Jagadīśa: When we hear the chanting, that's where it's coming from in the morning, in the early morning. Prabhupāda: Oh. They can chant outside, yes. The Deity bathing or whatever, dressing, may go on. You can chant not within the Deity room. That you can do outside. Then when their reading, writing begins? Jagadīśa: That begins at 10:15, after prasādam . They take prasādam at 9:30, and then at 10:15 their English class begins. Prabhupāda: Just after taking prasādam ? Jagadīśa: Yes. Fifteen minutes after. Prabhupāda: Hmm. What begins? *Jagadīśa: English class. That goes for one and a half hours. Then there's math class which goes for forty*-five minutes. *Prabhupāda: Not continually. They should be given a recess, ten minutes. Then again come to the class. And a class should not be more than forty*-five minutes. One class should not be continued more than forty-five minutes, then ten minutes recess, then begin another class. Jagadīśa: For the English program it is required, in order for them to have enough time to read and write, then they would require an hour and a half, so they would have two classes. Prabhupāda: In the meantime, one and half? Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You give ten minutes recess. Jagadīśa: And during the recess what should they do? *Prabhupāda: Nothing. They'll be free. Nothing to do. Recess means nothing to do. That is brain, I mean to say, rest. All continually you cannot do that. That is not good. Utmost, forty minutes or forty*-five minutes. Then give them ten minutes' freedom. Then begin another. Not more than forty to forty-five minutes at a time, reading, writing. Jagadīśa: After class, then, by 12:30 they bathe again, second time. Prabhupāda: They take prasādam first and then bathe? Jagadīśa: They bathe . . . they take prasādam at 9:00 in the morning, 9:30. Then they have class. Then after class is finished, then they bathe. Prabhupāda: After class they bathe? Jagadīśa: Around 12:30. Prabhupāda: Not needed. After prasādam they should not take bathing at least for four hours. Jagadīśa: Four hours. Pradyumna: They have a schedule where they have dāl , rice and sabjī and cāpāṭi at 9:30 in the morning. Is that what they have in the afternoon? Prabhupāda: Eh? So when they first take bathing? Jagadīśa: Uh, when they rise, at around four o'clock. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's fine. Then they take the prasādam at what time? Jagadīśa: 9:30. Prabhupāda: 9:30. So . . . Jagadīśa: We can take prasādam earlier. Prabhupāda: No, no, why earlier? Earlier, any breakfast? Jagadīśa: No. Prabhupāda: Why not? They are children. They must have some breakfast. Jagadīśa: They have three meals. One at . . . this is the way the temple program is scheduled. The temple eats at 9:30 in the morning, so the boys also get prasādam at that time because everyone eats the same . . . Prabhupāda: But early in the morning they should have some . . . at least munch sweetmeat, something like that. Bhagatjī: Like chewra . Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagatjī: Like chewra and curds, they can take, for example. After taking bath at one o'clock they should take little prasādam . Prabhupāda: Yes. Early in the morning, just after maṅgala-ārati , they can take something. They must take something. They are taking bathing at what time? Jagadīśa: In the morning? Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: Ten to four. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: Four o'clock. Prabhupāda: Four o'clock. So after maṅgala-ārati , the maṅgala-ārati prasādam should be given them, a little sweet. Yaśodānandana: (to other devotees) We hadn't agreed on that . . . (indistinct) Jagadīśa: Yes, the maṅgala-ārati sweets. Prabhupāda: Maṅgala-ārati sweets, they should be distributed amongst the children, little sweets. Then they can take 9:30 prasādam . Jagadīśa: Full prasādam . Prabhupāda: Yes. Then? Again they are taking bathing at what time? Jagadīśa: The scheduled next bathing is 12:30. Prabhupāda: Then what is the . . . 12:30, then? Jagadīśa: After bathing they take a little prasādam . Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. Then it is all right. Jagadīśa: Then at 1:30 they take some rest. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. How long? Jagadīśa: One hour. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Jagadīśa: Then they have Sanskrit class from 2:30 until four. Prabhupāda: Hmm. 2:30, four, that's all right. Jagadīśa: One and a half hours. So there should be a recess in between. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: That's one and a half hours, so there should be recess in between. Prabhupāda: Ten minutes at least. Jagadīśa: Then at four o'clock the chanting party leaves for the Yamunā procession. Prabhupāda: In process . . . that's nice. Jagadīśa: And they return by six for darśana in the temple room. Prabhupāda: No, let them return by 5:30. Jagadīśa: 5:30. Devotee (2): Can we have the class while we're there? So that we . . . 'cause it takes us . . . (indistinct) Jagadīśa: Well, we can adjust this but . . . because darśana begins at 5:30, they should be there by . . . Prabhupāda: No, darśana begins at five . . . Jagadīśa: 5:30. Prabhupāda: 5:30. Why? Devotee (2): It was at six o'clock in the evening. Originally it was at six o'clock. Prabhupāda: No, no. The darśana opens at five. Jagadīśa: No, when you come into the temple room, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Your darśana . Prabhupāda: No, no, my darśana is different. Public darśana . When the Deity room is opened? Bhagatjī: At five o'clock in the evening. Prabhupāda: That's it. Why do you say six? Jagadīśa: Uh, I meant that when the darśana period for yourself was at six. Prabhupāda: No, it should be 5:30. Jagadīśa: 5:30. Prabhupāda: General darśana is open at five. That's nice. Jagadīśa: So then the boys would return at 5:30 . . . Prabhupāda: I think it may be little earlier, no, half an hour. Bhagatjī: Half an hour it would be, because the ārati is beginning at 6:30 . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagatjī: . . . so the afternoon darśana would be at 4:30. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagatjī: That we had managed last year. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Jagadīśa: So the boys would come for the chanting and recitation of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: What time? Jagadīśa: 5:30 to 6:30. Prabhupāda: No, 5:30 we begin class. In that class they can chant. Jagadīśa: Kīrtana . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Jagadīśa: And then, at 6:30, there will be ārati and they'll stay for ārati . Then, after ārati , they take a little prasādam and then take rest. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That's all right. *Jagadīśa: And as far as everyone's duties are concerned, Rūpa*-vilāsa is the English teacher. He teaches English and math, and, of course, Pradyumna teaches the Sanskrit program. And Dhanurdhara Prabhu has been . . . he works in the āśrama , overseeing the boys . . . Prabhupāda: Taking care. Jagadīśa: Yes. And Yaśodānandana Mahārāja will . . . Prabhupāda: Recitation. Jagadīśa: Recitation. Yaśodānandana: And I also help with getting the boys through japa and kīrtana and getting them more enthusiastic. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Jagadīśa: It's nice to have a sannyāsī involved. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jagadīśa: He can be a good example. Prabhupāda: Very good. Jagadīśa: And Bhagatjī, grandfather. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: For feeding. Feeding. Give them sumptuous food so that they may become healthy, nice food. (laughter) Yes. That is also wanted. Children, they must eat sufficiently. Not overeat. Even overeat, that is not wrong for children. And that will be exercise, by going to Yamunā and coming. That will be bodily exercise. This is nice. Do that. Strictly follow. There is no scarcity of space there. Yes. Vṛndāvana is holy place. And there is no government interference, so increase it. Bring more student from all over the world. Then it will be unique. And you also make scheme to get Indian children from aristocratic family. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga*-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate ( BG 6.41). Those who are born in high-class, rich family or Brahmin family, they are not ordinary. But there is no Brahmin family now but the richer section, they can be induced to send their boys to learn Sanskrit and English and Bhagavad-bhakti . They can do business, and whatever they like, they can do later on. But these things, they should be . . . father, mother should be careful. Iska koi program banao, acha ghar ka ladka sab aye. Unko to khane pine ka koi abhav nahi hai. Wo thoda Bhagavad-bhakti sikh le, thoda Sanskrit sikh le, thoda English sikh le, usko kya . . . (indistinct) . . . hai. (Make such a program that boys from aristocratic backgrounds come to the gurukula . They have no problem with food, shelter and clothing. Let them learn the science of devotional service to the Lord, a little Sanskrit, a little English . . . (indistinct) . . .) Bhagatjī: Bacche kya bahar se ayenge? (Can kids from outside join the gurukula ?) *Prabhupāda: Kahi se bhi aye, idhar to rahega aur idhar khayega. Kahi se bhi aye. Bahar se ayenge . . . (Let them come from anywhere. They will stay here so it doesn't matter where they come from . . .) just attract all good family, children. Jo ki parishram karke, (Those who earn by toiling very hard,) labour . . . working, they will have to live, they cannot. They cannot become a paṇḍita or spiritually advanced men. They have to work. But if the richer section, they get their sons good character, good devotee . . . Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, ko 'tha putreṇa jātena yo na vidyā na bhaktimān : "What is the use of such son who is neither devotee nor learned?" Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam : "What is the use of blind eyes? It is simply troublesome." So if the aristocratic family, they do not give education in spiritual line, they'll become all hippies, loafer, and drinking and wasting father's money. They should be informed. Usko to phokat me paisa milta hai, usko udayega, baith*-baithke sharab piyega aur usko to chahiye . . . (He gets money without any hard work so he will waste it, engage in drinking and require . . .) (break) I think there must be three, four classes. Bhagatjī: Three, four classes afterwards, but at present? Prabhupāda: Ah. Bhagatjī: If students are in great number, then we shall introduce—otherwise . . . Prabhupāda: Classes to be arranged according to the number of student increases. That's all. That shall be . . . Jagadīśa: Now there are two classes. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: There are two classes according to age. Prabhupāda: Kata, according to time and circumstance. Bhagatjī: In my opinion, Prabhupāda, there should be one period for Hindi classes. Prabhupāda: That's very nice. *Bhagatjī: Forty minutes, forty*-five minutes that will be very good for the children. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very good. That is essential. If the Indian students come, they will require some vernacular like that. Bhagatjī: Hindi class there should be. In Vṛndāvana they will . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Do that, Hindi. Bhagatjī: In Māyāpur there should be Bengali class. And Hindi and Bengali, two language are very close. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not any other language. Hindi is essential—must be compulsory, Hindi. That is State language. Jagadīśa: For the Western children also? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Everyone. Bhagatjī: You should find some time, adjust some time for Hindi. Prabhupāda: Hindi, Sanskrit, English compulsory. Bhagatjī: That's all. Then, afterwards we can make other, just elemental mathematics, arithmetic or just that, afterwards, when the regular studies go in the group. Now . . . (indistinct) . . . these three things. By learning Hindi they will . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And the government also will like that, that foreign students . . . Bhagatjī: If they can understand the language and they . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Hindi is essential. It is not difficult, the same principle as Sanskrit. Reading and writing, that's all. *Jagadīśa: So far as the financial situation, I've discussed with Bhagatjī, and it seems that the best idea is to open a separate gurukula maintenance account with co*-signers Bhagatjī and Rūpa-vilāsa, so that . . . because there's so much . . . Prabhupāda: So then some of them, they are getting money. Jagadīśa: Yes, the parents are sending money. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jagadīśa: Because with the temple there has been confusion. Prabhupāda: Now the temple, you can make separate account. Jagadīśa: We have one question about . . . there's one of the boys. His name is Jagaman, and he's a . . . he's a more or less a bad boy. He's had a bad background. His mother's a devotee, and she's a nice devotee, but he's very . . . he terrorizes the other boys. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Jagadīśa: He misleads them. He lies. Prabhupāda: How old he is? Jagadīśa: He's thirteen. Prabhupāda: So he cannot be . . . he must go back. We cannot spoil other children. *Rūpa*-vilāsa: They are being spoiled by him. Jagadīśa: I was thinking, to make an example of him, either we should beat him or send him back. Prabhupāda: Best thing will be send him back. He's incorrigible. Yaśodānandana: Personally I had that boy with me for two months when I went to South India preaching, and I thought it would be an asset to have a young boy, but he was so misbehaved that it was too much problem. And the same things that he was doing in the beginning with me, telling lies and misbehaving, he is still doing now, and he does not correct himself, never. He has no effort to better his behavior or his conduct. He does not chant his rounds. He rarely comes to the kīrtana , or else when he comes to the kīrtana , he does not chant. He simply plays and makes fun. And it's very . . . he has a very bad influence on the other boys. Prabhupāda: No, then he should be sent back. Or he can be sent to Bombay to work ordinarily. Or Hyderabad farm, like that. Let him work on the ground. Yaśodānandana: He speaks Bengali. That boy was in Bengal before, and he picked up Bengali a little bit. Prabhupāda: So he can go. Pradyumna: He's very intelligent, but he's just had a bad . . . Prabhupāda: So he was in Māyāpur? Yaśodānandana: Yes, he was in Māyāpur before. He knows Bengali. He can speak Bengali with us. Prabhupāda: So he can go with the Māyāpur preaching party as well. Yaśodānandana: We could send him with Bhavānanda Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be nice. He knows Bengali. Let him go to Bengal and keep him under Bhavānanda. Jagadīśa: I think that he'll be a problem wherever he goes. Prabhupāda: No, Bhavānanda will correct his problem. Jagadīśa: I think Bhavānanda wouldn't want to take him, because he knows he's a problem. *Rūpa*-vilāsa: Bhavānanda told me he did not want to see that boy again. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Rūpa*-vilāsa: Bhavānanda told me he did not want to see that boy again. Pradyumna: In Māyāpur he had some girl . . . Jagadīśa: In my opinion, the best thing is to make an example and beat him. Prabhupāda: Yes, send him to farm, work in the field. If he does not work, beat him. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ . Bhagatjī: Ek baat yaad a gayi. Pehle jo kuch crime karte the, to phasi ya kalapani. To kalapani me Singapore ki taraf ya Malaya phek dete the. Aap unko Hyderabad me bhej dete hai. (laughter) (I remember how criminals used to be sent for lifetime imprisonment or hung until death. For lifetime imprisonment, they were dispatched to Singapore or Malaysia. Similarly, you send them to Hyderabad.) (laughter) Prabhupāda: Ha. Hyderabad bhejo, usko kaam karao, usko matti khodne ka kaam do. Nahi kare to usko pito. Aise kya hai. (Yes. Send him to Hyderabad—make him work hard and till the ground and if he doesn't listen, then beat him.) Yaśodānandana: He was just in Hyderabad for that ceremony there, and he caused such disruption in the whole temple that I don't think they'd want him there. Jagadīśa: The thing is, if we beat him here and keep him here, then all the boys will straighten up because they will see that if they go bad, then this will be their punishment. Prabhupāda: As you think, you can do. But I wanted to engage in farm work, digging. Yaśodānandana: Yes, that is his propensity. Actually it's a fact when he was with me I would try to teach him *Īśopaniṣad* and your purports, which are so clear and simple, but after three or four times explaining the same thing, he would become angry to receive the instruction. Prabhupāda: No, no. He is meant for śūdra's work. (laughter) Yaśodānandana: And when that boy would be told to watch himself . . . Prabhupāda: You cannot expect that everyone is Brahmin . No. He has got śūdra mentality, so let him till the ground for Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). He is fit for tilling so let him till and produce grain for Kṛṣṇa. Jagadīśa: Hyderabad? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Hard work. He should be given hard work. This gurukula is for high, high*-class Brahmin , kṣatriyas , not for the vaiśyas and śūdras . (Bhagatjī laughs) No, everyone is required for Kṛṣṇa's service, but there . . . that I was describing today. There must be division. Don't put horse before a cart. Pradyumna: Race horse before the cart. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pradyumna: Race horse before the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that will not be nice. Bhagatjī: Vaiśya . . . log (. . . people) will have some betterment . . . Prabhupāda: Vaiśya is meant for kṛṣi . Indian man: If you don't teach vaiśyas for this gurukula then how do they do the accounts? Prabhupāda: No no, we are not taking vaiśyas by birth. Jagadīśa: Accounts is just a skill. Anyone can learn to do account. Indian man: No, vaiśya is special work. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, accounts are meant for kāyasthas , śūdras . (Indian man laughs) Vaiśyas are meant for producing grain and protecting cows. Yes. According . . . one Englishman used to say: "This clerical job means educated laborer, educated śūdra ." (laughs) Śūdra . . . actually the kāyasthas are counted amongst the śūdras . You know that? Bhagatjī: In Bengal kāyasthas is the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, Bengal. Mean in U.P. Bhagatjī: In U.P. kāyasthas are śūdras . *Prabhupāda: And original they are śūdras . The history of Bengali kāyasthas . . . they went with the Brahmins as servant. That is the history. And in Bengal the system is . . . jaat harale kayat. Jiska koi jaat ka thikana nahi chalta, wo kaastha ho gaya. Ye Bengal me aisa bola jata hai, jaat harale kayat . . . (if you lose your caste, then you are a kāyastha . One who cannot follow the principles of his respective varṇa or class, becomes a kāyastha . This is the system in Bengal.) Actually it is . . . if some low*-class man, he becomes rich, then he's taken into the kāyastha community. Anyone who cannot stick to the principle of caste system, he becomes a kāyastha . *Bhagatjī: Varṇa*-saṅkara . Prabhupāda: Ah yes. Jaat harale kayat. Ye Bengal me hai. (If you lose your caste, then you are a kāyastha . This is the system in Bengal.) Some of them are kṣatriyas and some of them . . . like that. But that is not essential. That is all gone. Now, if one cannot take education, he can be used in farm work, little hard work. *Jagadīśa: Bhakti*-kīrtana is another problem. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Jagadīśa: Bhakti*-kīrtana , Saurabha's boy. He is only eight, but he is becoming like a street boy. Prabhupāda: So let him go to farm working. Farm working is for suitable . . . Bhagatjī: He likes that. He'll play with cows. He likes dung. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? Jagadīśa: He likes dung. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Let him take care. He should take care. Therefore we must have all these engagement. He'll be encouraged to take care of the cows. Bhagatjī: But he's not in gurukula . How can you send him? He is with Saurabha. Saurabha left him for five days. Saurabha is keeping him. Prabhupāda: If the father takes care, that's all right. Otherwise he can go to Hyderabad. Hyderabad should be for gṛhasthas , for plowing, for growing, and flowers, like that. No education required. Bhagatjī: He is not interested in education. Not at all. Prabhupāda: No, no education . . . that is waste of . . . for such boys who are not interested, why they should be enforced, education? They are not meant for that. Education is for higher brain, sober brain. And not that everyone has to become literate. It is not required. He can do other work. Yes. Bhagatjī: Prabhupāda means that according to the nature, you engage them. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ . "You can do this? All right, do it. Why you should be forced to learn Sanskrit? Not necessary. Not necessary." Dhanurdhara: What of a boy who does the chanting nicely and the kīrtana nicely but doesn't do school work nicely? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dhanurdhara: What of a boy who does the japa very nicely and . . . Prabhupāda: Well, japa . . . whether his father is doing japa nicely, that is also doubtful, what to speak of children. Japa , children cannot . . . that should not be taken very seriously. Whatever he can do, that's all right. We should enforce, we should . . . but not that if he does not immediately, he should be rejected. No. *Jagadīśa: You've often said the first*-class intelligent men are the brāhmaṇas , second-class intelligent men are the kṣatriyas . . . *Prabhupāda: So we have to train like that, guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ , not that everyone should be Sanskrit scholar. Why? It is not necessary. There are so many other things. *Jagadīśa: The inclination depends on guṇa*-karma . *Prabhupāda: Shobai korbe jomidari, ke korbe mubedari. Sab zamindar ho gaya to phir mubedari kaun karega. (If everyone becomes a landlord then who will become the servant.) Although by nature we should not enforce something. We should see for which work he is suitable, you should engage him. And we must have all departments of work—the weaving department, the plowing department, the cow*-keeping department, the Sanskrit department, the English department, the trading department. We should have all the departments. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Jagadīśa: Head, arms, belly and legs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whichever suitable, that . . . one must be suitable for any of these. It is the guide's intelligence: for which purpose he is suitable, engage him, like that. That is required. Not that everyone has to become a big scholar in Sanskrit. That is not required. Let him come to gurukula , but if he is not suitable . . . gurukula , this . . . so far character is con . . . that is for everyone. Just like early rise in the morning, chanting, and going to the . . . what is the objection? Anyone can do it. That is practice. And for working, if he is not suitable for higher education, let him go to the farm, take care of the cows grow food, flowers, fruits, eat, and dance and chant. Chanting, dancing, everyone will take part. There is no doubt. Bhagatjī: How to mend him from lies? He speaks lies. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagatjī: How to mend him from lies? Prabhupāda: That is by your good association. What lies he tells, don't believe him at all. That's all. Take him that he speaks only lies. Then don't believe. Whatever he says, you force him to do. Take him that he speaks only lies. Why should you consult him? He's a liar. But see that he's working, that's all. Now we are getting so much land, we can develop. We can utilize everyone's service. That requires brain. Not that "He cannot do this, therefore reject him"—no, engage him in some other . . . Jagadīśa: One other point I want to make, and that is that until the construction is completed, I think we should wait . . . Prabhupāda: There is ample place now where can live. Jagadīśa: But I mean to bring more boys we should wait until the construction . . . Prabhupāda: Why? Let them come. It is already there. It is not that the guesthouse is all filled up. Let them come. Jagadīśa: As many as possible? Prabhupāda: Why not? Jagadīśa: Okay. *Prabhupāda: Let them come. And arrangement should be made when it is . . . if Vṛndāvana is too hot, at that time we can send them to Mahabaleshvara, or if we get that Madras place, that is very cooling, Nilgiri Hills. That will be good recreation for them. They should be kept quite comfortably and built up, their character, education. That is wanted. There is need of some good first*-class men, ideal men. The world is full of rogues and thieves and bad character. Ye jo Sarasvati vidyalaya, ye log kya kar rahe hai? (What are they doing, these Sarasvatī-vidyālaya people?) Bhagatjī: Shiksharthi nahi, vidyalaya khali padha hua hai Prabhupāda. (There are no teachers, the school is empty Prabhupāda.) Prabhupāda: To kyu hum log thoda le, hum log . . . (So why don't we acquire it, we can . . .) *Bhagatjī: Hume to aj . . . plan kye the . . . (indistinct) . . . panch che mahine ke liye le le. Char*-panch mahine ke liye bacche ate hai. (We had planned to acquire it for 5 to 6 months. Kids come here for 4 to 5 months.) *I just told you that building, that Śiśu*-vidyālaya, Sarasvatī *Śiśu*-vidyālaya, you saw it with Guṇārṇava? Jagadīśa: Yes. Bhagatjī: That's it. Prabhupāda asks about that. Jagadīśa: Oh. But they said no. Bhagatjī: Who said? Jagadīśa: Guṇārṇava went to see them, Mr . . . what's his name. Prabhupāda: You cannot send Guṇārṇava. He is not fit for this purpose. You should go yourself. Jagadīśa: Okay. *Prabhupāda: Kya wo padha hai, kya unka buddhi nahi. Hum log ko dede hum abhi Sarasvati vidyalaya bana de, ladki log ke liye. Sab lifeless hai. Kuch karega nahi aur kuch dusro ko karne ka sahaya nahi karega. Ab ye Dhanuka ka ye jo hai, kya kuch kaam nahi hota, padha hai. (What are they doing, don't they have any intelligence? Let them give it to us and make it into a real Sarasvatī*-vidyālaya, for the girls. They are all lifeless. They will neither do anything themselves nor help others to do something. This Dhanuka āśrama , what are they doing?) Bhagatjī: Sanskrit school hai, bacche padhte hai waha pe. Kal panchvi . . . (indistinct) . . . hui . . . (indistinct) . . . Dharma sangha, unka naam rakha hai Dharma sangha. (There is a Sanskrit school. Yesterday fifth grade . . . (indistinct) . . . they named it Dharma sangha .) Prabhupāda: Wo kya karte hai, baccho ke? (What do they do, those kids?) Bhagatjī: Bacche padhte hai sanskrit, bis marks ka exam dete hai . . . (Children study Sanskrit, write an exam of twenty marks . . .) Prabhupāda: Kitne bacche hai? (How many students are there?) Bhagatjī: Kafi hai. Pacchis tees ladke hai. (Quite a few. 25 to 30 boys are there.) Prabhupāda: Tab to thik hai. (Then it's okay.) Bhagatjī: Ha. Sanskrit padhate hai baccho ko. Unke kuch bacche Vaishnav bhi ho gaye hai, sadhu bhi ho gaye hai Vaishnav. (Yes. They teach Sanskrit to the kids. Some of them have become Vaiṣṇava saints.) Prabhupāda: Tab to thik hai. (Then it's okay.) (break) Jagadīśa: That's our report, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's our report. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Do that. Yaśodānandana: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) (Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper) *Prabhupāda: The present time, it is called Kali*-yuga. (aside) Take little prasādam . Kali-yuga means this age . . . Kali-yuga means the age of quarrel and disagreement. Dr. Kneupper: Age of . . .? *Prabhupāda: Quarrel and disagreement. Because there is no standard idea. So I'll disagree with you, you'll disagree with me, and on slight provocation there will be fight. This is age called Kali*-yuga. Dr. Kneupper: Do you see that nations will fight too? That there will be wars, things like that? Prabhupāda: Yes, so many difficulties. Even there is no war, the natural disturbance and foolish government will create such situation that people will become mad in hopelessness. Dr. Kneupper: Very dark. Prabhupāda: Very dark, yes. First thing, there will be no rainfall. Due to the sinful activities of the people, from nature the punishment will be there will be no rainfall. I have seen already in Europe. Everywhere there is scarcity of rainfall. And on account of scarcity of rainfall, food production will be reduced. They will try to eat meat, killing, and maintain themselves. But that is also not very prospective. How long you will . . .? The animals will also die. Then in Europe they are doing that, that on account of scarcity of rain there is no grass, so they are thinking, "These animals die for want of food. Let us eat them." This is their intelligence. Dr. Kneupper: Well, do you see that many people will die, because there's not . . . many people will die. Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is no rainfall, either animal or men, they will die for want of food. Dr. Kneupper: What do you think would be the remedy or solution to the problem? *Prabhupāda: Remedy is they should admit that there is God. But they do not admit, especially the so*-called scientist rascals and atheist philosophers, politicians. They do not accept the authority of God. They think they will be able to manage things in their own way. And they say clearly, "There is no God." But there is nature. You can say, "I don't care for the government," but the government force is there; police is there; military is there. Similarly, you may say: "Defy the control of government," but the agent of God is there, the material nature. That will punish you. There will be no rain, there will be no food production, and the rascal governments will take advantage of it, "food relief." They'll tax, as if by taxing they will be able to combat with nature. So three things we'll have to meet: no rain, no food, and government taxes. Then how people will remain in sane condition? They will become mad. Dr. Kneupper: But your teaching, doesn't it offer a way of meeting these problems? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are teaching people God consciousness. Then everything will be solved. Dr. Kneupper: You say that man does not understand nature. The scientist studies nature, but yet he doesn't really understand it. Prabhupāda: Why they do not understand it? Why don't you understand that there is control over us? Where is the difficulty? Foolishly we do not try to understand. Do you admit it, that above us there is control? Do you admit? Dr. Kneupper: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: No, anyone. Dr. Kneupper: Some people do. Prabhupāda: Why others? That means they are foolish. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. Well, each person has his own thought. Prabhupāda: No, no, that means . . . he may be rascal, but it is a fact there is control over us. Just like if there is no rain, is it not control over you? Can you produce rain? Dr. Kneupper: I would say that there is a universal intelligence guiding everything. Prabhupāda: Yes, that means control. How can you deny the control over you? Dr. Kneupper: What do you understand is man's place in nature? Should he invent, let's say, electricity? Should he invent machines? Do you think these are good, or should he just leave those alone? Prabhupāda: Well, these are good or bad. Suppose if there was no this comfortable pad. That does not mean that I cannot sit. If there was no electricity, it does not mean we would have died. Dr. Kneupper: No. Prabhupāda: There was lamp. We were doing that. So we don't condemn electricity, but it does not mean because we have got electricity, we shall deny the authority of God. That is rascaldom. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. You might have improved from the oil lamp to electricity. That does not mean that you have the control over God. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, certainly not. Prabhupāda: So these foolish rascals, because they have improved little, they are denying, "Oh, now there is no need of God. That is opiate." What is that? Opiate? Jagadīśa: Opiate of the people. Prabhupāda: "They make the man foolish, God consciousness," and so on, so on. These scientists, they declare, "What is God? This is all superstition." Dr. Kneupper: But in the world there seem to be many different religions, many different faiths. Prabhupāda: Religion you may have. Religion means to try to understand God. Any religion—you take Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muhammadan religion—there is little attempt to understand God. So any religion which gives you knowledge of God and you understand what is relation with God, that is perfect religion. We have no quarrel. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think if all men . . . let's say, all the religions could try to come together . . . Prabhupāda: Religion means to understand God and to follow God's order. That is religion. Just like government and government law. So if the citizen understands what is the law of the government and abides by it, then he's a good citizen. Similarly, any person who understands God and abides by the order of God, then he is religious. Why do you stand? You may be Christian; *I may be Hindu, he may be Muhammadan. It doesn't matter. Everyone should understand God and the relationship with God and act accordingly. Then it is perfect religion. And if there is no conception of God, no carrying out order of the God, that is not religion. That is cheating. But generally they do not accept God—still, he is stamping himself that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian." He has no idea what is God, how to abide by His order, and they are fighting that "I am Christian and you are Hindu. Therefore we must fight." This is going on. Nobody understands what is God. Pseudo*-religion. Practically there is no religion. If there is no government—you make your law, I make my law—then how there will be peace? That is the position. They do not understand what is God, and "I am Christian" or "Hindu" or "Muhammadan, now let us fight." That's all. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think that there is a special way that Hinduism looks upon man's place in the universe? Prabhupāda: "The Hindu religion" is a vague term. Dr. Kneupper: It's a what? *Prabhupāda: It is a vague term. It is not clear. It is not clear. Real term is, it is called Vedic principle. Vedic principle. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: Vedic knowledge means to understand God. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam ( BG 15.15). So anyone who tries to understand God, he is in the Vedic line. Veda means knowledge, so as you get the stock of knowledge, that is called Vedas . But as soon as we say Vedas , they think it is Hindu. Mathematics is a science. So any scientific man will accept mathematics. Where is the question of Hindu mathematics? Gold is gold. If it is in the hand of Hindu, it is Hindu gold? Hindu, Muslim gold? Gold is gold. But when we give the Vedic knowledge, they think it is Hindu idea. Dr. Kneupper: Are you saying that this knowledge has appeared in many forms? Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kneupper: Does it appear also in, let's say, Christianity, in Muslim, Muhammadanism? Prabhupāda: No, no, I say that every religion, there is an attempt to understand God. Why do they not understand God, what is God? Then everything will be solved. But they are decrying, "There is no God. God is dead," and "There is no need of God, now we have got science." In every step they are trying to kill God. That's all. Dr. Kneupper: That's true of certain people, but there are also many . . . Prabhupāda: Majority, they do not understand what is God. Dr. Kneupper: There are many sincere seekers, I think, in Christians and Muslims. At least I have met. Prabhupāda: Yes. That must be. There must be some sincere men. That can be admitted. But still the sincere man also does not understand clearly what is the meaning of God. "I believe in God." "I believe in God," they say. Just like in America they say: "We trust in God." But what is God, he does not know. So what is the meaning of this, "I trust in God"? That is a phobia. Dr. Kneupper: It probably means many things. Prabhupāda: If I say: "What do you mean by God?" they cannot give any clear definition. And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, "Here is God. Take Him." But they have no knowledge. They will say, "They are presenting some Hindu god," and then they do not accept Him. Dr. Kneupper: What do you understand by that word "God"? Prabhupāda: God means supreme controller. Dr. Kneupper: Super . . .? Prabhupāda: Controller. Dr. Kneupper: The master of the universe. Prabhupāda: That's it. Dr. Kneupper: Well is that . . . do you think that this concept is, let's say, the special insight of the Vedic? Prabhupāda: No, no. You, as a philosopher, you can understand that there is supreme controller. Can you deny it? Dr. Kneupper: I would . . . only with great difficulty, I think, it seems to me. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is . . . you cannot deny it. But they foolishly deny it. Therefore they are rascals. So how you can convince the rascals the right way? If you give me a dozen of dogs, can I convince him that what is God? Dr. Kneupper: Hardly. They have no capacity to understand. Prabhupāda: But they have no capacity. The modern civilization, we are creating dogs and hogs, so how they will understand God? Dr. Kneupper: Do you think there will always be a few who understand? Prabhupāda: Certainly. Unless one . . . but if there is a class of men, ideal, who understands God, then people will follow. We require one moon; *then the darkness will be dissipated. But if in the millions of stars, what is the use? So they are creating millions of rascals, not one sane man, the modern civilization, the so*-called philosophers, so-called scientists. Don't mind. This is the fact. Dr. Kneupper: Do you basically reject the modern civilization? Prabhupāda: No, no. I say they are being foolishly trained. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Prabhupāda: The whole education system is bad. Dr. Kneupper: Can you see no hope that there will be change? Prabhupāda: There is hope. There is cent percent hope, provided you accept the right way. Dr. Kneupper: But would you say the right way would have to be, let's say, to be a follower of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: "God" means Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Kneupper: What about . . .? As I understand, in the *Gītā* . . . *Prabhupāda: God . . . Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. So God must be all-attractive, full controller. Our definition of God is, All wealth, all power, all intelligence, all beauty, all renunciation. In this way. Jagadīśa: These are new books in French, Kṛṣṇa book and Upadeśāmṛta . This devotee has just brought them from Bhagavān dāsa. Prabhupāda: Oh. Thank you. When you have come? Devotee: Two days ago. Prabhupāda: Oh. (to Professor) You know French language? Dr. Kneupper: Yes. Yes, I saw a copy earlier today at the . . . the man who did the translation, I forget his name. From Chicago, I think. He worked on the translation. It's very beautiful. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen it. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. I forget his name. It's very nice. Very beautiful. Prabhupāda: This is French book, Kṛṣṇa . Jagadīśa: Umāpati. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, Umāpati. Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, Umāpati. He is here. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I met him this afternoon. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . give the idea of God. Dr. Kneupper: To try to teach, try to help people understand. Prabhupāda: And now in India another danger is that so many rascals, they are declaring, "I am God." And this India, people have become so fallen down, they accept all these rascals as God. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think the same problem is here in India as in other countries? Prabhupāda: No, in your country there is no God. That is another problem. (laughter) There is no God. And here rascals are God. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Prabhupāda: The problem remains the same. You say frankly, "There is no God," but these rascals say: "There is God, but here is my God." And he says, "No, here is my God." Dr. Kneupper: No one knows the real God. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No one knows the real God. Dr. Kneupper: How does one distinguish between what is a false God . . . Prabhupāda: This is the formula. Just like aiśvaryasya . Now, you have got some money, but you cannot say that, "I have got all the money of the world." That you cannot say. You may possess some states, but you cannot say that "I am the owner of all the states." So God is the proprietor. You have got your country. Which country you belong to? Dr. Kneupper: United States. Prabhupāda: United States. So you have got certain area. But when you go to the seaside, then who is the proprietor of the sea? As philosopher, will you not think it? Dr. Kneupper: There is no proprietor, strictly speaking. Prabhupāda: Why no proprietor? A small tank if you dig, you immediately claim, "This is my tank," and such a big ocean, and there is no proprietor? As philosopher, how you can think like that? Dr. Kneupper: Well, I think of what is the basis of property, property is just a convention . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Suppose I go in a park. There is nice tank, reservoir of water, well decorated. And if I think, "There is no proprietor," is it not my foolishness? There must be one proprietor, but I do not know him. That is real sense. Similarly, everything has got proprietor. Why the sea and the land, the so many other things, why there is no proprietor? This is foolishness. Dr. Kneupper: I don't understand how this relates to distinguishing who are the true teachers . . . Prabhupāda: No, that I have already explained. Everyone is foolish now. You cannot distinguish who is thief and who is not thief. Thakbaj se gaon ojo. (The village is full of cheaters.) If you study everyone, you will find everyone is rascal at the present moment. Dr. Kneupper: But surely there are some who are sincere. Prabhupāda: Some must be there. There is no doubt about it. But they are so in minority, who will hear about them? "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." The whole world is rascal. If somebody is intelligent, who cares for him? Just like people laugh at me that I am talking of God. I am not only talking; I am writing so many books. My only endeavor is to understand God, that's all. There is no sectarian. And I am selling my books all over the world. So not that everyone is foolish. They're trying to understand my presentation, big, big scholars, big, big philosophers. Yes. Dr. Kneupper: Oh yes, we have many of them in our library. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is knowledge. If people kindly take it, everything will be solved. But they have stubbornly denied, "No God." And I am stubbornly fighting, "Yes, there is God." That is the . . . now the whole America is combining to fight against me, opposition that, "This man is brainwashing, controlling the mind, and our children are kidnapped." They are bringing these charges against us. Just like you have come. Have I kidnapped you? Dr. Kneupper: Oh, no. Prabhupāda: (laughs) But these rascals say that I have kidnapped their children. Indian man (2): But judgment has been taken. *Prabhupāda: There must be judgment, but people have become so rascal. So I am trying to convince, although single*-handed that, "There is God," and they are bringing opposition. Indian man (2): That is the real philosophy. That is not only Indian philosophy; this is universal philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. God is for everyone. Indian man (2): God, the almighty powerful. Prabhupāda: God is not Hindu God, Muslim God, Christian. God is God. Now when I say: "Here is God. His name is Kṛṣṇa. His father's name is Nanda Mahārāja," now they will laugh. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think if a person is to be a real believer in God he has to also worship Kṛṣṇa or speak of Him? *Prabhupāda: No, God means Kṛṣṇa. He has to understand it. Therefore so many books. God has many names, millions, of which Kṛṣṇa name is the most important. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. Then you have to understand the science of God. How Kṛṣṇa is God, that you have to understand. But for that reason we are publishing so many books. We have already published eighty-four books, simply in English language. And they are being translated in German, French, Portuguese, then Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Hindi, Bengali, like that. Dr. Kneupper: It's a very great effort. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we are getting response. Our books are selling like hotcakes. (laughter) Yes. Indian man (2): This is about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, the person. Indian man (3): : Kṛṣṇa, the person. His book. Indian man (2): His book. Prabhupāda: Here it is written. Indian man (3): : Yes, the Supreme Personality. Prabhupāda: "*Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*." It is written there? Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I saw it. Prabhupāda: "Supreme Personality of Godhead." Yes. *Dr. Kneupper: This is a book of Kṛṣṇa. "The complete resume of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ." Prabhupāda: Tenth Canto. Indian man (3): : The person does not want to solve the questions. They want only to get riches. They want to get rich like . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, they don't want simple things. Indian man (2): And what is the use of becoming rich man? It is all fruitless. Prabhupāda: Rich man you can become, but for how long you shall be rich? The nature is so cruel; *at any moment he'll take away everything. Then what is the use of becoming? No, you become rich man. There is no . . . but you should know that "Although I am rich, powerful, everything can be taken by nature at any moment." Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). That is statement of God, that "Any moment . . . you try to become rich, powerful, and president and minister, that's all right, but any moment, I can take everything from you." So who will protect himself? They have no brain that, "Whatever I have created, it can be taken at any moment." So what is that confidence? They have no inquiry even. That this is a fact. Either you become Napoleon, Hitler or Gandhi or this or that, any moment everything will be taken away, "Get out." Not only that, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), you have to accept another body. And that is no guarantee what body you are going to get, because it is fully under the control of nature. They therefore don't believe in transmigration of the soul. And that is very great botheration. They try to evade. But Kṛṣṇa says, God says: "You cannot evade. It is nature's law." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Within your body the soul is there. On account of presence of the soul—you were a child, now you are a grown young man—the body has changed. You were a boy, now you are young man. So on account of presence of the soul, the body is changing. So when this body will be finished, the soul will exist. Therefore, naturally you have to conclude there will be another body. Dr. Kneupper: Is it possible to escape the conditions of being in the body? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is possible. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And that is the real problem. As soon as you get a body, you are in trouble. Dr. Kneupper: What is the purpose of there being a body? Prabhupāda: Being in body means . . . what is the purpose of being in the jail? Is there any purpose? Dr. Kneupper: Certainly for some punishment. Prabhupāda: Yes. So because we are punished, therefore we are getting this body. Dr. Kneupper: Why does man . . . why does the soul come into the body in the first place? Prabhupāda: Punishment. Dr. Kneupper: But he must have done something . . . Prabhupāda: You want to enjoy. Can you understand this? Everyone is trying to enjoy. So enjoy independently means that you don't care for . . . that is the fact. They don't care for God. So because they don't care for God, therefore they are punished, "You take care of your body." And as soon as you care for God, then there is no material body. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti . So God, therefore, teaches us how to get out of this body. Dr. Kneupper: That's the whole idea of mokṣa ? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Kneupper: Mokṣa ? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is. Mokṣa means to stay in your original body. And bondage means we want different types of enjoyment, so God gives us the facility: "All right. Enjoy." If I do not make any discrimination of food . . . as human being, we must have discrimination. But if you don't discriminate, then you get the body of a pig. You can eat even stool. If you want to eat meat unrestricted, you become a tiger. Nature will give you facility. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara . And there are 8,400,000's of bodies. So according to your desire, you'll get a body. God will give you. Dr. Kneupper: Is that what is meant when a man thinks when he dies, at the moment of his death . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: He goes there. Are there many places, let's say, beyond the physical? Prabhupāda: So many places. Don't you see, night? *Dr. Kneupper: No, I mean beyond this physical, three*-dimensional universe. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is only one*-fourth part manifestation of God's property. The three-fourth part is the spiritual world. Dr. Kneupper: Are there different regions for these higher worlds? *Prabhupāda: Beyond this universe. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). Find. He'll find out. Every information is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . *Dr. Kneupper: In the Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Mmm. That is the beginning of God consciousness. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Naśyatsu na vinaśyati . When everything in this material will be annihilated, that will exist. There is another world. Read it. Hari-śauri: "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." Prabhupāda: Purport? Hari-śauri: Purport: "Kṛṣṇa's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahmā. Kṛṣṇa's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter." Prabhupāda: There are two natures. One is material nature; *one is spiritual nature. The material nature—earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego—and beyond that, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām . This is inferior nature. Beyond this, there is a superior nature. And that superior, jīva*-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). That is the living entity. This big universe, this is material. But the living entities, because they are using this material for their so-called advancement, comforts . . . and because they have the power to utilize these material matters for their own purpose, they are superior. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā . And because this nature is being utilized, one is being utilized and one is utilizer. The utilizer is the superior, and the things utilized, they are inferior, but both of them are nature, God's nature. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā . Dr. Kneupper: Is there time in the higher nature? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Kneupper: Is there time? Prabhupāda: No. Higher nature means eternal. Dr. Kneupper: There are no changes in the higher nature? Prabhupāda: Changes when he gets into this material, inferior nature. He has to change the body, one circumstance to another, another, another, according to his desire. Just like you get a lump of dirt. You can mold it. You can make a pot. You can make a doll. So we are doing that. Child . . . the father has given birth to the child, and father has given the child a lump of earth, and he's playing. That's all. For both of them, the father is the proprietor. If the child wants to play, father says: "All right, play." So he's sometimes breaking, sometimes crying, sometimes laughing. This is going on. Dr. Kneupper: Then he goes back. Prabhupāda: Yes, if he gets sense. Therefore the father comes, that "You give up all this nonsense. Come home." So if you surrender to God, if you have grown up from the childish nature to the real human nature, then surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God. Then our life is perfect. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). (aside) Find out this verse. Hari-śauri: "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." *Prabhupāda: That's it. So everyone can become a great soul if he accepts the proposal of God. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śara . . . (BG 18.66). Everything is solved. But that he'll not do. Just like your first question was the "How to solve these problems?" The problems will be solved as soon as he surrenders to God. But that he'll not do. He is bigger than God. He will make solution by his own plan. This is the difficulty. Dr. Kneupper: Is that because of the age? *Prabhupāda: No, this is the . . . just like anyone is in the prison house, they are all criminals. But some of them are first*-class prisoners, some of them second-class, some of them third-class. But they are prisoner. Similarly, according to different time, people are more or less god . . . godless. So this time is more godless. The prison house is filled up with more third-class prisoners. Dr. Kneupper: How long does that period last? Prabhupāda: Well, now this age will . . . the duration of this age is calculated 4,3200 . . . 432 hundred thousands of years. Out of that we have passed only 500,000 . . . no, five thousand years. Dr. Kneupper: A long time to go. Prabhupāda: Yes. But why should you wait for the long time? You can go back to home, back to . . . immediately. That is our proposal, that "Why should you wait?" This may be long time. But we . . . you give up the connection with the material world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then after giving up this body you go back to home, back to Godhead. Then you have no connection, this. But we are make planning here, "We shall be comfortable." This is rascaldom. Indian man (2): We indulge our time . . . *Prabhupāda: We should stop all rascal plan and should take the plan given by God. Then it will be . . . everything will be all right. Simple solution. The God's plan is there in this book. Let us take it. Then everything is solved. But "No, we are scientist. We are philosopher. We are big man, politician. We shall make our own." Do, and suffer. God has given freedom: "All right." Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Kṛṣṇa is saying in the Bhagavad*-gītā after explaining Arjuna everything, then He asked, "What you have decided? Your plan or My plan?" So Kṛṣṇa said, "I am giving you freedom. Whatever you like, you can do." The plan is there. Now it is up to us to accept it or reject it. If you reject, you suffer. If you accept, you become happy. So we are requesting people, "Accept it." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Then you'll be happy." But who cares for us? He is making his own plan. Therefore he must suffer. Nature's law he cannot avoid. That's not possible. Nature's law, there is drought. And if God likes, immediately there will be rain. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ . That is also stated. (aside) So read that. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, annād . *The formula is there. (devotees looking for verse) Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ , yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ . Annāt , a-n-n-a-t . Get this light there on. Jagadīśa: This one? Prabhupāda: Yes, the outside. So all philosophers, all scientists, all politicians, let us combine together. The formula is there. (aside) Read it. Hari-śauri: "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of yajña , sacrifice, and yajña is born of prescribed duties." *Prabhupāda: That's it. There is no prescribed duties. Everyone is a butcher. Formerly there was distinction: "Here is a butcher," "Here is a religious man." At the present moment everyone is a butcher. Who is religious man? There was division, at least one class, first*-class man, second-class man, third-class man. Then, if there is ideal first-class man, even the fourth class, third class, he'll take the idea, "Oh, here is first class." But there is no first-class man. All fourth-class men. So who will give idea? And they want to remain fourth class. If you say that "You become first class," they will laugh: "What is the use of becoming first class?" First class means, find out, śamo damas titikṣā, then, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam . Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what did you want? You asked me to do something . . . Prabhupāda: I want the light on the veranda. Jagadīśa: It's on. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." *Prabhupāda: And if I teach that "I'll teach you how to become truthful," they will laugh. People will say: "Can anyone exist nowadays, simply becoming truthful?" Then damaḥ , self*-controlled. If I say: "Come here. I shall teach you how to control your senses," he will laugh that, "What is this nonsense? We shall enjoy life, and shall control senses?" This is the description of the first-class man, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava , saralatā , simplicity. No one is prepared to become first-class man. They will laugh. These are all primitive ideas. Dr. Kneupper: You think there is nobody like that? *Prabhupāda: Not nobody, there are. But people generally will not like that, "These are primitive ideas, to become truthful, simple and controlling the mind, controlling . . . these are all imaginary things. How one can live in the struggle for existence by becoming truthful?" They will say like that. Therefore everyone is fourth class. And the second*-class man, kṣatriya? Hari-śauri: "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas ." *Prabhupāda: This is kṣatriya . Now, who is kṣatriya ? A fourth*-class man, he never seen battlefield, and by vote he becomes president. And here kṣatriya means yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam . If there is fight he must come forward first of all. He is in his palace, and he's engaging common men, "Go and fight." When there was Battle of Kurukṣetra, Arjuna and Duryodhana, they came first. Because the battle was decided as soon as the leader is dead. No more fight. So they used to come first. This is kṣatriya . Where is that kṣatriya ? And they are becoming politicians simply by votes, all third-class, fourth-class men. What he'll do? Everyone is trying to keep his position by hook and crook. How he'll think of the people? How they will be happy? He is thinking of his own happiness. And these are politicians. There is no kṣatriya . There is no Brahmin. And there is no vaiśya . What is the vaiśya ? *Hari-śauri: Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). *Prabhupāda: Hmm. A vaiśya means he should provide food. So food means agriculture and giving protection to the cows. If you have got sufficient food grains and milk, the whole food question is solved. And these rascals, they are not giving protection to the cows, but they are killing cows. So there is no third*-class men even. All fourth-class. So how you can be happy under the control of fourth-class men? There is no first-class men, no second-class men, even no third class. That means all fourth class, fifth class. That's all. This is the human society, combination of fourth-, fifth-, tenth-class men. Tenth-class. The fourth-class . . . there are fourth-class men and more than that, fifth-class men, uncivilized. Aborigines, they are fifth class. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). There are so many. In the human civilized . . . civilization means there must be first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Then rest all fifth class, up to tenth class. But at the present moment there is some fourth-class men and all fifth class, sixth class, up to tenth class. So how we can be happy? There is no first-class men, there is no second-class men, not even third-class men. Who is caring for agriculture? They are preparing Goodyear Tire. Now eat tires. You rascal, eat tires. How long you'll eat tires? If there is no customer for tire, they're finished. *So that is coming. I went to Detroit about six months ago. There're factories. They have manufactured the wheels, huge stock. That means they are not selling. And the Goodyear Tire, they advertising, "So many millions tires we are manufacturing." You have been in Detroit? Yes. They're proud that "We have manufactured so many tires, so many wheels." The time will come when there will be no purchaser for tires and wheels, and they'll starve. That is coming. What they will do? If they become hungry there is no food grain. For some time they will eat, killing the cows, and then there will be no food, and what these tire and wheels will do? But there is no first*-class brain, that "We are wasting time by manufacturing tires and wheels. Without wheels we could live, but how we shall live without food grain?" There is no brain, no first-class men, no second-class men, no third-class men. Dr. Kneupper: There are farmers who produce . . . Prabhupāda: Well, in your country there is some adjustment because it is very big country, and you are all intelligent people. In other countries they are . . . but even though you have got resources, if you not properly utilize it, then the bad time is coming. You should expect. If your energy is all engaged in manufacturing tires and wheels, then who will go to the . . . actually I have seen in your country. Now the farmers' son, they do not like to remain in the farm. They go in the city. I have seen it. The farmers' sons, they do not like to take up the profession of his father. So gradually farming will be reduced, and the city residents, they are satisfied if they can eat meat. And the farmer means keeping the . . . raising the cattle and killing them, send to the city, and they will think that, "We are eating. What is the use of going to . . ." But these rascals have no brain that, "If there is no food grain or grass, how these cattle will be . . .?" Actually it is happening. They are eating swiftly. "The cattle will die. Before they die, let us kill and eat." Actually it is happening. In Italy they killed because the problem is twenty thousand cows. This is going on. They do not care that killing is sinful, because they don't care for God. This is going on. And sinful, sinful, sinful, everyone will be punished. The nature's law will act. Thakbaj se gaon ojo. (The village is full of cheaters.) There is a Bengali proverb, thakbaj se gaon ojo, (the village is full of cheaters,) that "One man wanted to take statistics, 'How many thieves are there in this village?' So when he began to take statistics, he saw everyone is thief. Then he said that 'What is the use of making statistics? This is village of thieves, that's all.' " So it is . . . at the present moment this is the position. If you make a statistics who is sinful and who is not sinful, you will find all sinful. And because they are sinful, they decry the existence of God. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante . . . (aside) Find out this, Seventh . . . because they are all sinful, they deny the existence of God. This is the position. Read it. Hari-śauri: "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest amongst mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me." *Prabhupāda: That's it. So you'll find everyone of this description, either sinful or lowest of the mankind or rascal or puffed*-up with false knowledge. But basic principle is: no God. So the only solution is let them first of all become God conscious. Then all solution. Otherwise there is no hope. Dr. Kneupper: The problem is very complex . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it must be complex. They will create complexity. Dr. Kneupper: And the solution is very simple. Prabhupāda: Solution. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām . . . and that we are preaching, that "You become God conscious. Everything will be solved." And who is caring for us? Rather, they are giving opposition that, "These rascals are kidnapping our sons, brainwashing, controlling the mind," creating courts case. Just see. This is going on. Dr. Kneupper: Do you see as a . . . when you're describing that if the world were going to be God conscious, it would . . . Prabhupāda: Everything will be solved. Dr. Kneupper: But you were describing the caste system or the . . . Prabhupāda: This is not caste system. It is natural. There is always an intelligent class of men in the society. So they should be, what is called, listed. They should be trained up properly. Dr. Kneupper: How do you envision . . .? Would you envision . . .? *Prabhupāda: Just like you are a philosopher. So you should not make only theories, "perhaps." But actually, by your philosophy, you establish the existence of God. Then you are philosopher. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya . . . (SB 1.5.22). Find out this verse in the Bhāgavata . Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka . If by your philosophical knowledge you prove, "Yes, there is God," then your philosophy study is perfect. And if you philosophize, "There is no God," that is useless waste of time. To gain popularity, if you make philosophy like . . . in your country there are so many rascal philosophers—Darwin, Freud. They are all rascals. They are predominant. Dr. Kneupper: I think there is some misunderstanding that many Americans may have about teaching that you have. Maybe you can clarify it. Prabhupāda: No you clarify it. It is your duty. You are philosopher. Dr. Kneupper: Well, that's why I am trying to understand it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: I think it's something like this, that . . . I've learned it from other of your devotees, or devotees of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, we have got our books. You are philosopher. You can read. You can understand the whole thing. There is no question of "This devotee, that devotee." We are giving in writing. So we cannot deny that. Dr. Kneupper: The question, though, is that there seems to be an advo . . . you advocate that there be a kind of Vedic society, that you are . . . *Prabhupāda: No, Vedic means knowledge, intelligent society. Why do you understand Vedic? Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda*-vido jñānena . This Veda word coming from knowledge. When I say that, "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Is there any objection? If I say that "Here is Mr. Such-and-such, a man of knowledge," so is there any objection? Dr. Kneupper: Is there a what? Prabhupāda: Is there any objection? Hari-śauri: Is there any objection. Prabhupāda: Will anybody object? Dr. Kneupper: It depends on whether the man shows himself to be a man of knowledge. Prabhupāda: No, no. If I present you that, "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Everyone welcomes knowledge. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, but one has to also show that he has knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is next. First of all, if I say that "Here is a man of knowledge," where is the objection? Now, whether you are man of knowledge, that will be tested next. But if I introduce you that, "Here is a man of knowledge . . ." Similarly if I say: "Here is man who knows *Vedas* ," so why the objection? Knowledge is for everyone. Why do they take, "Oh, *Vedas* , oh, it is Hindu"? Immediately you reject. Dr. Kneupper: I don't think it's so much question of rejecting the *Vedas* . . . *Prabhupāda: No, Vedas , they do not know what is Vedas . They think it is Hindu. This is the difficulty. As soon as say " Bhagavad*-gītā ," "Oh, it is Hindu idea." Dr. Kneupper: Well, many, many people do . . . *Prabhupāda: But that means they do not know what is the meaning of Bhagavad*-gītā , what is the meaning of Vedas . Unnecessarily they put some outside . . . just like they are doing now. They do not know what is knowledge, and they are accusing us that we are brainwashing. We are forbidding our devotees, "Don't eat meat." Oh, they are taking it: "It is revolutionary. Eh? How these men, they are stopping?" (someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (4): Apni bhalo achen? Ami Bholanath. Ami Benaras e thaki, ami ajke . . . (How are you? I am Bholanath. I am from Benaras, today . . .) (break) *Prabhupāda: So this is difficulty. If I say, "Here is a person who knows mathematics," why there should be . . . any person who is interested in mathematics will welcome him. So similarly, here is Vedic knowledge. Vedic knowledge means real knowledge. Here is Bhagavad*-gītā , the knowledge of God, but they misunderstand it. They think, "Oh, we have got another God." How God can be another? So people should be sober, that we are giving books. They should understand. And it is accepted by the educated class, big, big professors, big, big philosophers. It is not blind faith. Just like this version of Bhagavad-gītā , tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "As we are changing body even in this duration of life, similarly, when this body is finished, then another body." So where is the difficulty to understand? But they will say, "It is Hindu idea." Fact we are presenting that, "You are changing your body. When you came out of the womb of your mother, the body was so small. And then little bigger body, little bigger body, little bigger body. Now you are full-grown young man." So the body is changing, everyone can understand. But I can understand also that, "I had so big . . . small body and this body. Then body is changing; I am existing." Then where is the difficulty of the transmigration of the soul? Dr. Kneupper: Many people do accept it. Prabhupāda: But as soon as we say . . . "Oh, this is Hindu idea"; reject immediately. This is science, and they are taking "Hindu idea." Indian man (2): The problem is that identification only Indian philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise it is universal philosophy. Prabhupāda: It is universal, but they are taking it as Indian. Indian man (2): In order to identify that, Vedic, let's say Indian, actually that is not Indian. *Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be, knowledge is knowledge. It may be Indian or American, it doesn't matter. Just like university. Some student from India go to university in America to study higher knowledge. So that means that because he has gone to America, that is American knowledge? Knowledge is knowledge. So they should take on this background. But they are thinking that we are spoiling their children, brainwashing, controlling the mind, because against their principle, against their uncivilized way of life: meat*-eating, illicit sex, intoxication. This is uncivilized life. Why a man, civilized man, shall eat meat? He can prepare so many nice things. He has learned how to produce food, food grain. When they are uncivilized—there is no food; they do not know how to grow food—they can eat animal in the jungle. But if after becoming civilized, if you are eating the same thing, then what is the difference between civilization and not civilization? You have learned. And especially in your America you can get all nice foodstuff. You have got sufficient grains, sufficient fruits, sufficient vegetables, sufficient . . . everything sufficient. Why you should eat meat? This is uncivilized life. They could not give up the uncivilized way of life. And when you teach that "You become civilized. Give up this all nonsense. Don't eat." "Oh, it is brainwashing." You see? We are teaching them to become civilized, and they are taking it brainwashing. *Dr. Kneupper: Is that a teaching of the Bhagavad*-gītā , that one should not eat meat? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not . . . meat*-eating is third-class man's eating. It is not denied. Amedhya . But to give us our life, don't kill cows, because it gives you milk, very substantial food. If you want to eat meat, you can eat the hogs and dogs. But don't kill the cows. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). This is special. It is not forbidding meat-eating, but don't eat cows' flesh. That is loss. It is a great loss to the human society. If they do not have sufficient milk production, then their brain will be dull. They will not be able to understand subtle things. Therefore it is better to avoid it. But if you cannot avoid, you can eat some inferior, useless animals. But don't touch the cows. This is Bhagavad-gītā . Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . He never says pig- rakṣya . You can eat pig. You can eat the goats, the lambs. There are so many small useless animals. They are eating dogs also. The Chinese people, they eat dogs. *So you can eat dogs, hogs, so many other animals. But don't touch the cows. This is God's instruction. And they are advertising that, "The Hindus, they are so fool, they are worshiping an animal, a cow." They do not know what is the economic value of this cow. In the beginning of your life you want milk immediately in the morning. And you are killing the mother. You are civilized? Do you think? You take milk up to the point of death. In South Africa, before killing the cows, they drag out milk and then send it. Milk is important, but because they are uncivilized, they do this. You take milk. Instead of killing, you prepare so many nice things from milk which is good for brain, good for intelligence. But they do not know because uncivilized. Foolish fourth*-class men. So we are trying to bring them to become first-class men, and they are accusing of brainwash. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." We are teaching that "These boys, they are becoming first class." Anyone will worship them. How nice they look, how behavior, how their character. We are creating this, and they are accusing, "Oh, they are kidnapping our children." (aside to guest) Why you are going? Eh? Why you are going? Indian man (2): . . . ap baat kijiye. (. . . please continue.) *Prabhupāda: Ācchā . So this is our position. Now you are philosophers. You try to understand the whole philosophy and combine together. People have become all fourth*-class, tenth-class, uncivilized men. They should be given the idea of God consciousness. I don't say only in the Western country. Everywhere this is the problem, all fourth-class men. So there is possibility to bring the fourth-class men to the first class. That is educational. It can be done. There is no difficulty. So this is the education, how to make fourth-class men or fifth-class men to come to the first-class standard. (aside) What is that? Which verse I wanted? Jagadīśa: Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the *Vedas* , sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, suppose you are a well*-known philosopher. If you say: "There is God," so many people will hear, "Oh, here is a big philosopher." Therefore your studies of philosophy will be perfect when you establish, "Yes, there is God." Otherwise it is useless, because you will waste your time and you'll waste . . . already they are godless. Dr. Kneupper: How does one establish clearly? *Prabhupāda: That requires thinking. That requires knowledge. Therefore we are giving so many books. You can study. You can present the case nicely with argument, philosophy. That is your duty. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānu . . . when you are able to describe God very philosophically, scientifically, mathematically, then your education is perfect. Dr. Kneupper: Are there any books particularly that focus on all this? *Prabhupāda: Every . . . there are so many books. There are so many books. The primary book is the Bhagavad*-gītā , yes, as it is, if you take it as it is. If you amend it to your whimsical way, then it is gone. Therefore we are presenting. This word we have added, Bhagavad-gītā "As It Is." Don't try to amend it. Then it will be foolishness. *Dr. Kneupper: If I wanted to know Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, you'd have to read Sanskrit, wouldn't you? Prabhupāda: No, we have this English translation. This is in French translation, in German translation. Dr. Kneupper: How does one decide . . . there are so many translations. How does one decide . . . *Prabhupāda: That depends on your philosophy. You are reading so many books. How do you select, "This is nice"? That depends on your philosophy. But if you accept it that it is spoken by God, then there is no argument. But why should you accept it, spoken by God? You read it, whether how much logical, how much full of knowledge. Then you can say. The same thing—just like Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "Within this body there is the soul, and because the soul is there, therefore body is changing." So anyone can . . . any layman can understand. Things are there like that. So there is no difficulty. If we take, "Oh, this description, the transmigration of the soul—Hindu idea." Why Hindu idea? It is science. Dr. Kneupper: One usually thinks of it as Hindu because . . . Prabhupāda: As soon as we consider it "Hindu," then it becomes sectarian. Then you will say: "I have got my Christian idea. Why shall I take your Hindu idea?" Dr. Kneupper: What is your view towards Christianity? Prabhupāda: Christianity is to some extent, but you have got different edition of Christianity. So far I know, as soon as they say: "Christian," immediately the question, "To which Christian party you belong?" What is that? Hari-śauri: Christians, yeah. Protestants, Methodists, Catholics . . . *Prabhupāda: So which is correct Christianity we do not know. But we have no such thing. There is no party. Bhagavad*-gītā , there cannot be any party. If anyone makes any party, he is immediately cancelled. But at least we believe in the Ten Commandments. Now, Lord Jesus Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." But why all the Christians are simply busy in killing? That is my first question. Dr. Kneupper: Not all of them believe in . . . *Prabhupāda: Ninety*-nine percent, they are maintaining all big, big slaughterhouse, all Christians. And Lord Jesus Christ ordered, "Thou shall not kill," but they are killing. What kind of Christian he is? Disobedience to the order of Christ, and still he is Christian? These things are going on. Then again party, this "ism," that "ism," that "ism." First of all, all of them are disobeying the Ten Commandments, and then there are parties. So which one you'll accept? *Dr. Kneupper: There's no such diversity of interpretation of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from Bhagavad*-gītā , I am talking of Christianity. How you can disobey the orders of Christ and you become Christian at the same time? Dr. Kneupper: There's always people falling short of what their . . . Prabhupāda: That's it. That means they are all useless. If you are Christian, how you can defy the order of Christ? You will disobey the orders of Christ; *still you are Christian? Just like in India they are all denying the Vedic culture, and still they are Hindu? All these rascals. So therefore I say whole world is full of rascals. If the Christians accept this word, that Lord says: "Thou shall not kill," why shall we kill? Welcome. Never mind whether Christian or Hindu. Welcome. Similarly, in India, if they accept Bhagavad*-gītā , welcome. But everyone is rascal, mūḍha . Nobody cares for God, nobody cares for God's messenger. All rascals. This is the position. They are creating God. They are creating religion. They are creating sect. This is going on. Dr. Kneupper: (indistinct) . . . even though they are sincere . . . *Prabhupāda: That should be educated from the very beginning. Therefore we are opening gurukulas, sane brain. Otherwise their brain is spoiled by so*-called bad education. I inquired from your State Secretary that, "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so why not spread this God consciousness, 'What is God?' You blindly say, 'God in Trust,' but what is God? Do you know? So why not spread this science?" I received no reply up to date. They might have said: "Here is a crazy fellow. Nobody has inquired like this." That's all. They do not like to enter into the controversy. Actually they do not believe in God, but write, "In God We Trust," is it not? Dr. Kneupper: That's what they write. Prabhupāda: Yes, but they don't believe in God. Hypocrisy. Because if they trust in God, then they could not cheat that, "I am paying you one thousand dollars by some papers." This is cheating. And promise, "In God I Trust." Is that money? So this cheating is begun from the government. Now how the people will be honest? Everywhere, in all government, they are giving you some papers and you accept it as money. This is not brainwash. Just see. They are educating people that, "I promise to pay. This is money," but actually he's receiving some papers. This is not brainwash. And we are talking of God, that is brainwash. Dr. Kneupper: Perhaps when people . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, this is the present situation. When people will be honest, that is future. Dr. Kneupper: But I mean now, when they make these confrontations and give you these difficulties, perhaps it will give your people a chance to teach them and clarify . . . Prabhupāda: Well, that we are doing, but this is the opposition. That our boys are trained up. They are trying to meet the opposition. But my point is that such a nice thing we are giving. Why they should oppose? That means uncivilized. Why good thing should be opposed? They say: "In God We Trust," and we are speaking of God only. We have no other business, and they are opposing. And they write, "In God We Trust." Hypocrisy. "If we believe in God, we trust in God, all right, they are talking of God. Let us hear." That is sense. That Patrick? Patrick? He kidnaps our devotees. Hari-śauri: Ted Patrick. Prabhupāda: Yes. And by force trying to give him meat but now, if educated men of your country, they come forward, understand this philosophy, then combined effort . . . my philosophy is that American and Indian: American money and Indian culture, combine together; *the whole world will be changed. That is my philosophy. It is coming to some extent. These American boys, they help me. (aside) What is that newspaper cutting? Appeared in Bombay? Bring it. They have published this philosophy, my philosophy. Actually, if I not have gone to America, at least I could not publish . . . (indistinct) . . . when I was in India, with great difficulty I published three books only. And because I went to America, I was able to publish eighty*-four books. And it is going on still. These boys help me. Just like they are publishing now, still. Hmm. Read it. Jagadīśa: "The West is like a blind man, and the East is like a cripple . . ." Prabhupāda: No, read the heading and everything. Jagadīśa: (indistinct) . . . "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma, written by the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . the West is like a blind man, and the East is like a cripple, says A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder-ācārya of the International Society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The two should cooperate. The blind man should carry his lame companion, and the lame man should give guidance to his blind friend. In this way both will benefit. Similarly, the wealthier Western countries should assist the materially exploited East, and the East, particularly India, should help the spiritually blind West to understand scientifically the actual higher purpose of human life. To offer India's transcendental science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the West, Prabhupāda sailed from Bombay to New York City in 1965. After a year of great personal struggle, he established the first center of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In the next few years he attracted hundreds of sincere disciples and opened centers in dozens of American and European cities. He also established gurukula schools and farming communities based on the ancient Indian pattern. "In 1970 Prabhupāda returned to India and with the assistance of many Indian gentlemen and some of his disciples, he established ISKCON centers in Bombay, Delhi, Calcutta, Madras and the rural holy spots of Vṛndāvana, Lord Kṛṣṇa's place, and Māyāpur, West Bengal, the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Soon he attracted many Indian disciples as well, who opened centers in Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Chandigarh and in several rural areas. Today ISKCON has about one hundred āśramas , gurukula schools, temples and farming communities around the world. But according to Prabhupāda, his books are his most important contribution. In the last ten years he has published over eighty volumes in sixteen languages. Scholars in India and abroad have praised Prabhupāda's books as classics, scholarly and authoritative. Literally crores of his literatures are sold annually, and this figure is almost doubling every year. "How is it possible to sell so many books about Kṛṣṇa? Girirāja, president of the ISKCON center in Bombay, answers, 'People all over the world are looking to India for transcendental knowledge. They know that India's ancient Sanskrit literature speaks of lasting happiness beyond the frustration of material life. They are eager to buy our books because they know that we are presenting the genuine Vedic culture. In fact, many Westerners come here to discover the real India for themselves . . . (indistinct) . . . life experience. For this reason we are building a model Vedic community at our Juhu center in Bombay, providing all the modern amenities for scholars, students and sophisticated inquirers from abroad as well as from India who can study the original Indian culture and practice. The center will include a Vedic library, theater, prasādam restaurant, gurukula school, an international guesthouse, as well as a temple and āśrama .' *"ISKCON is also building a model Vedic community in Māyāpur near Calcutta based on cottage industry and agriculture. The important principle is that everyone must be gainfully employed. In ISKCON's Māyāpur project hundreds of persons operate spinning wheels and more than a dozen handlooms, dye the cloth, and . . . (indistinct) . . . printed in popular design, process rice and dāl by hand, crush sugarcane for sugar products, and manufacture by hand wooden shoes and other items of daily use. On twenty*-five acres of agricultural land in Māyāpur, ISKCON is developing and demonstrating scientific farming procedures such as crop rotation, organic fertilization, and using improved strains. ISKCON is also cross-breeding cattle from Canada and Australia with Indian cows to increase milk production. Thus the community provides its own cloth, food, and other daily needs, acts as an agricultural development and demonstration center, and additionally feeds thousands of people twice every week. Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON plans, the Māyāpur project will extend into a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand . . ." Prabhupāda: We have applied for 350 acres of land from the government. The process is going on. If we get, then we shall spend crores of rupees for . . . the description is . . . Jagadīśa: "Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON plans, the Māyāpur project will extend to a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand inhabitants, its own university, airport and stadium. It will also claim the world's largest planetarium, with 410 foot high Temple of Understanding . . ." (break) . . . Vedic civilization. Dr. Kneupper: It sounds like a beautiful project. That is near Bombay, now? Prabhupāda: No, that is near Calcutta. Dr. Kneupper: Calcutta. Prabhupāda: About sixty miles. Dr. Kneupper: Have they progressed much now? *Prabhupāda: Yes, the enquiry is finished. Now government is considering to give that land. If they give, we shall like that. There were many others, land offers, in Hyderabad, but I wanted to start this institution in the . . . on the birth*-site of Lord Caitanya. Otherwise we have got better land. We have asked government for 350 acres, but we have already got, in Hyderabad, 600 acres. Here also we can get immediately 500, 600 acres, like that. We have already got another plot of land, 100 acres, in Ahmedabad. So there are so many lands available, but I wanted to start this project in Māyāpur, the birthsite of Lord Caitanya. Therefore we are waiting. If they say no, then we shall attempt it somewhere else. Indian man: In Calcutta also there is a project? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is not very important. Dr. Kneupper: Well, it's been most interesting to meet you and hear you. I . . . unfortunately I have to go to Agra this evening. So I really want to thank you, and I will remember this, and I will read your writings and think very deeply on what you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: . . . said to me and . . . (indistinct) . . . this . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I recited also. It is the real utilization of every education. *Dr. Kneupper: Right. But the Bhagavad*-gītā is very wonder . . . it's . . . since I first read it, it's been one of my favorite . . . Prabhupāda: You are reading? Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I . . . I try to read it frequently, because it gives me some real spiritual . . . Prabhupāda: And if you want to know further, you can write to me. Dr. Kneupper: Good. I'll take back your blessing to Slippery Rock when I go back there. Prabhupāda: Yes, and there, so many old friends, you can offer them. Dr. Kneupper: Okay. Dr. Morrison and Dr. Sharma, so many other people . . . Prabhupāda: There is Sydney Weld there, when I went. Dr. Kneupper: Very good. Is the friend which you were . . . you were staying with somebody in Butler? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: Is he still there? Prabhupāda: No. That friend was one of my friends' son. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Prabhupāda: The boy went there for learning engineering. But she (he) settled there marrying one English girl. I became his guest for about a month. Then I came to New York. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Was the place Slippery Rock? Was that the first college . . .? Prabhupāda: No, the place was Butler. Dr. Kneupper: You were in Butler, right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: And then you spoke at a college. Prabhupāda: In the college, yes. Dr. Kneupper: Every time I go to that hall I remember the story that you spoke there. Prabhupāda: Oh, they still say. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. You must have left some kind of blessing upon it. It has a nice atmosphere. Prabhupāda: That was in 1965. *Dr. Kneupper: Sixty*-five. That far back. Prabhupāda: About eleven years ago. Dr. Kneupper: Such a short time, and so many changes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: The growth, the temple here, beautiful. On my next trip to India . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, you can come and stay here or in Bombay. We have got . . . Dr. Kneupper: But I want to see the one . . . the city when it's constructed. That would be really . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, that is . . . yes. Dr. Kneupper: I hope that is . . . in Calcutta will be a success story. Prabhupāda: You have got the contemplative man with you . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Yes, sir. Dr. Kneupper: This will be over 300 acres if it's . . . Prabhupāda: Three hundred fifty acres. Dr. Kneupper: It's a large city. Fifty thousand, did you say, people? How many people were there? Jagadīśa: Fifty thousand. Dr. Kneupper: Fifty thousand. Prabhupāda: Expecting fifty thousand. The real peace movement. Jagadīśa: That's what we're trying to bring together here in this city. (indistinct conversation going on as plans are shown) and then all around, the different communities, vaiśya community, the merchant community, trade community . . . (indistinct) . . . their own communities. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Hari-śauri: According to the Vedic system (indistinct speaking as devotees explain the plans) Prabhupāda: You have got? Jagadīśa: That's the purport to that verse? Read? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. *Jagadīśa: "Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire to the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu*-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection or self realization depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. "Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation of the Lord or His different energies because the Lord has set in motion by His inconceivable energy actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is therefore different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them. When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord the whole process becomes absolute." "The Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him. Therefore all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all the branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets, and celebrated littérateurs are generally engaged in writing sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord, they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord, and by doing so they become immortal. Similarly science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord." *"There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all*-powerful. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All knowledge not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord. And that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factual hari-kīrtana , for the glorification of the Lord." Dr. Kneupper: Well I will remember this. And I will read, look into your writings much more closely . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: . . . when I get back. Could I ask you if you might sign . . . put your name in . . . autograph? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Kneupper: Could you do that, please? Prabhupāda: So you can give him that book. Devotee: Scientific Basis? Prabhupāda: Would you like to read this book? Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I will read that, yes. Prabhupāda: So I'll sign in that book. Dr. Kneupper: Okay, okay, fine. Yes, that would be good. Very good. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Kneupper: Thank you very much for your time . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, I thank you for your coming. We want educated boys like you. Dr. Kneupper: Good. Well, I will communicate what you said. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Kneupper: I think . . . as soon as I . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . all human society. It is not a sectarian movement. Dr. Kneupper: Well, I'm very glad I had the chance to meet you, to learn . . . because when you meet . . . when you hear things second source . . . secondary source, it's not like . . . Prabhupāda: Do you think our presentation is all right? Dr. Kneupper: Yes. It's very fine. And I'll try to help the people . . . my mother is from Texas. My family lives there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Kneupper: And I'll try to help them understand better what the situation is. So . . . Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (break) (end) (Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper) *Prabhupāda: The present time, it is called Kali*-yuga. (aside) Take little prasādam . Kali-yuga means this age . . . Kali-yuga means the age of quarrel and disagreement. Dr. Kneupper: Age of . . .? *Prabhupāda: Quarrel and disagreement. Because there is no standard idea. So I'll disagree with you, you'll disagree with me, and on slight provocation there will be fight. This is age called Kali*-yuga. Dr. Kneupper: Do you see that nations will fight too? That there will be wars, things like that? Prabhupāda: Yes, so many difficulties. Even there is no war, the natural disturbance and foolish government will create such situation that people will become mad in hopelessness. Dr. Kneupper: Very dark. Prabhupāda: Very dark, yes. First thing, there will be no rainfall. Due to the sinful activities of the people, from nature the punishment will be there will be no rainfall. I have seen already in Europe. Everywhere there is scarcity of rainfall. And on account of scarcity of rainfall, food production will be reduced. They will try to eat meat, killing, and maintain themselves. But that is also not very prospective. How long you will . . .? The animals will also die. Then in Europe they are doing that, that on account of scarcity of rain there is no grass, so they are thinking, "These animals die for want of food. Let us eat them." This is their intelligence. Dr. Kneupper: Well, do you see that many people will die, because there's not . . . many people will die. Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is no rainfall, either animal or men, they will die for want of food. Dr. Kneupper: What do you think would be the remedy or solution to the problem? *Prabhupāda: Remedy is they should admit that there is God. But they do not admit, especially the so*-called scientist rascals and atheist philosophers, politicians. They do not accept the authority of God. They think they will be able to manage things in their own way. And they say clearly, "There is no God." But there is nature. You can say, "I don't care for the government," but the government force is there; police is there; military is there. Similarly, you may say: "Defy the control of government," but the agent of God is there, the material nature. That will punish you. There will be no rain, there will be no food production, and the rascal governments will take advantage of it, "food relief." They'll tax, as if by taxing they will be able to combat with nature. So three things we'll have to meet: no rain, no food, and government taxes. Then how people will remain in sane condition? They will become mad. Dr. Kneupper: But your teaching, doesn't it offer a way of meeting these problems? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are teaching people God consciousness. Then everything will be solved. Dr. Kneupper: You say that man does not understand nature. The scientist studies nature, but yet he doesn't really understand it. Prabhupāda: Why they do not understand it? Why don't you understand that there is control over us? Where is the difficulty? Foolishly we do not try to understand. Do you admit it, that above us there is control? Do you admit? Dr. Kneupper: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: No, anyone. Dr. Kneupper: Some people do. Prabhupāda: Why others? That means they are foolish. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. Well, each person has his own thought. Prabhupāda: No, no, that means . . . he may be rascal, but it is a fact there is control over us. Just like if there is no rain, is it not control over you? Can you produce rain? Dr. Kneupper: I would say that there is a universal intelligence guiding everything. Prabhupāda: Yes, that means control. How can you deny the control over you? Dr. Kneupper: What do you understand is man's place in nature? Should he invent, let's say, electricity? Should he invent machines? Do you think these are good, or should he just leave those alone? Prabhupāda: Well, these are good or bad. Suppose if there was no this comfortable pad. That does not mean that I cannot sit. If there was no electricity, it does not mean we would have died. Dr. Kneupper: No. Prabhupāda: There was lamp. We were doing that. So we don't condemn electricity, but it does not mean because we have got electricity, we shall deny the authority of God. That is rascaldom. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. You might have improved from the oil lamp to electricity. That does not mean that you have the control over God. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, certainly not. Prabhupāda: So these foolish rascals, because they have improved little, they are denying, "Oh, now there is no need of God. That is opiate." What is that? Opiate? Jagadīśa: Opiate of the people. Prabhupāda: "They make the man foolish, God consciousness," and so on, so on. These scientists, they declare, "What is God? This is all superstition." Dr. Kneupper: But in the world there seem to be many different religions, many different faiths. Prabhupāda: Religion you may have. Religion means to try to understand God. Any religion—you take Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muhammadan religion—there is little attempt to understand God. So any religion which gives you knowledge of God and you understand what is relation with God, that is perfect religion. We have no quarrel. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think if all men . . . let's say, all the religions could try to come together . . . Prabhupāda: Religion means to understand God and to follow God's order. That is religion. Just like government and government law. So if the citizen understands what is the law of the government and abides by it, then he's a good citizen. Similarly, any person who understands God and abides by the order of God, then he is religious. Why do you stand? You may be Christian; *I may be Hindu, he may be Muhammadan. It doesn't matter. Everyone should understand God and the relationship with God and act accordingly. Then it is perfect religion. And if there is no conception of God, no carrying out order of the God, that is not religion. That is cheating. But generally they do not accept God—still, he is stamping himself that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian." He has no idea what is God, how to abide by His order, and they are fighting that "I am Christian and you are Hindu. Therefore we must fight." This is going on. Nobody understands what is God. Pseudo*-religion. Practically there is no religion. If there is no government—you make your law, I make my law—then how there will be peace? That is the position. They do not understand what is God, and "I am Christian" or "Hindu" or "Muhammadan, now let us fight." That's all. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think that there is a special way that Hinduism looks upon man's place in the universe? Prabhupāda: "The Hindu religion" is a vague term. Dr. Kneupper: It's a what? *Prabhupāda: It is a vague term. It is not clear. It is not clear. Real term is, it is called Vedic principle. Vedic principle. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: Vedic knowledge means to understand God. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam ( BG 15.15). So anyone who tries to understand God, he is in the Vedic line. Veda means knowledge, so as you get the stock of knowledge, that is called Vedas . But as soon as we say Vedas , they think it is Hindu. Mathematics is a science. So any scientific man will accept mathematics. Where is the question of Hindu mathematics? Gold is gold. If it is in the hand of Hindu, it is Hindu gold? Hindu, Muslim gold? Gold is gold. But when we give the Vedic knowledge, they think it is Hindu idea. Dr. Kneupper: Are you saying that this knowledge has appeared in many forms? Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kneupper: Does it appear also in, let's say, Christianity, in Muslim, Muhammadanism? Prabhupāda: No, no, I say that every religion, there is an attempt to understand God. Why do they not understand God, what is God? Then everything will be solved. But they are decrying, "There is no God. God is dead," and "There is no need of God, now we have got science." In every step they are trying to kill God. That's all. Dr. Kneupper: That's true of certain people, but there are also many . . . Prabhupāda: Majority, they do not understand what is God. Dr. Kneupper: There are many sincere seekers, I think, in Christians and Muslims. At least I have met. Prabhupāda: Yes. That must be. There must be some sincere men. That can be admitted. But still the sincere man also does not understand clearly what is the meaning of God. "I believe in God." "I believe in God," they say. Just like in America they say: "We trust in God." But what is God, he does not know. So what is the meaning of this, "I trust in God"? That is a phobia. Dr. Kneupper: It probably means many things. Prabhupāda: If I say: "What do you mean by God?" they cannot give any clear definition. And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, "Here is God. Take Him." But they have no knowledge. They will say, "They are presenting some Hindu god," and then they do not accept Him. Dr. Kneupper: What do you understand by that word "God"? Prabhupāda: God means supreme controller. Dr. Kneupper: Super . . .? Prabhupāda: Controller. Dr. Kneupper: The master of the universe. Prabhupāda: That's it. Dr. Kneupper: Well is that . . . do you think that this concept is, let's say, the special insight of the Vedic? Prabhupāda: No, no. You, as a philosopher, you can understand that there is supreme controller. Can you deny it? Dr. Kneupper: I would . . . only with great difficulty, I think, it seems to me. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is . . . you cannot deny it. But they foolishly deny it. Therefore they are rascals. So how you can convince the rascals the right way? If you give me a dozen of dogs, can I convince him that what is God? Dr. Kneupper: Hardly. They have no capacity to understand. Prabhupāda: But they have no capacity. The modern civilization, we are creating dogs and hogs, so how they will understand God? Dr. Kneupper: Do you think there will always be a few who understand? Prabhupāda: Certainly. Unless one . . . but if there is a class of men, ideal, who understands God, then people will follow. We require one moon; *then the darkness will be dissipated. But if in the millions of stars, what is the use? So they are creating millions of rascals, not one sane man, the modern civilization, the so*-called philosophers, so-called scientists. Don't mind. This is the fact. Dr. Kneupper: Do you basically reject the modern civilization? Prabhupāda: No, no. I say they are being foolishly trained. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Prabhupāda: The whole education system is bad. Dr. Kneupper: Can you see no hope that there will be change? Prabhupāda: There is hope. There is cent percent hope, provided you accept the right way. Dr. Kneupper: But would you say the right way would have to be, let's say, to be a follower of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: "God" means Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Kneupper: What about . . .? As I understand, in the *Gītā* . . . *Prabhupāda: God . . . Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. So God must be all-attractive, full controller. Our definition of God is, All wealth, all power, all intelligence, all beauty, all renunciation. In this way. Jagadīśa: These are new books in French, Kṛṣṇa book and Upadeśāmṛta . This devotee has just brought them from Bhagavān dāsa. Prabhupāda: Oh. Thank you. When you have come? Devotee: Two days ago. Prabhupāda: Oh. (to Professor) You know French language? Dr. Kneupper: Yes. Yes, I saw a copy earlier today at the . . . the man who did the translation, I forget his name. From Chicago, I think. He worked on the translation. It's very beautiful. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen it. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. I forget his name. It's very nice. Very beautiful. Prabhupāda: This is French book, Kṛṣṇa . Jagadīśa: Umāpati. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, Umāpati. Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, Umāpati. He is here. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I met him this afternoon. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . give the idea of God. Dr. Kneupper: To try to teach, try to help people understand. Prabhupāda: And now in India another danger is that so many rascals, they are declaring, "I am God." And this India, people have become so fallen down, they accept all these rascals as God. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think the same problem is here in India as in other countries? Prabhupāda: No, in your country there is no God. That is another problem. (laughter) There is no God. And here rascals are God. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Prabhupāda: The problem remains the same. You say frankly, "There is no God," but these rascals say: "There is God, but here is my God." And he says, "No, here is my God." Dr. Kneupper: No one knows the real God. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No one knows the real God. Dr. Kneupper: How does one distinguish between what is a false God . . . Prabhupāda: This is the formula. Just like aiśvaryasya . Now, you have got some money, but you cannot say that, "I have got all the money of the world." That you cannot say. You may possess some states, but you cannot say that "I am the owner of all the states." So God is the proprietor. You have got your country. Which country you belong to? Dr. Kneupper: United States. Prabhupāda: United States. So you have got certain area. But when you go to the seaside, then who is the proprietor of the sea? As philosopher, will you not think it? Dr. Kneupper: There is no proprietor, strictly speaking. Prabhupāda: Why no proprietor? A small tank if you dig, you immediately claim, "This is my tank," and such a big ocean, and there is no proprietor? As philosopher, how you can think like that? Dr. Kneupper: Well, I think of what is the basis of property, property is just a convention . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Suppose I go in a park. There is nice tank, reservoir of water, well decorated. And if I think, "There is no proprietor," is it not my foolishness? There must be one proprietor, but I do not know him. That is real sense. Similarly, everything has got proprietor. Why the sea and the land, the so many other things, why there is no proprietor? This is foolishness. Dr. Kneupper: I don't understand how this relates to distinguishing who are the true teachers . . . Prabhupāda: No, that I have already explained. Everyone is foolish now. You cannot distinguish who is thief and who is not thief. Thakbaj se gaon ojo. (The village is full of cheaters.) If you study everyone, you will find everyone is rascal at the present moment. Dr. Kneupper: But surely there are some who are sincere. Prabhupāda: Some must be there. There is no doubt about it. But they are so in minority, who will hear about them? "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." The whole world is rascal. If somebody is intelligent, who cares for him? Just like people laugh at me that I am talking of God. I am not only talking; I am writing so many books. My only endeavor is to understand God, that's all. There is no sectarian. And I am selling my books all over the world. So not that everyone is foolish. They're trying to understand my presentation, big, big scholars, big, big philosophers. Yes. Dr. Kneupper: Oh yes, we have many of them in our library. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is knowledge. If people kindly take it, everything will be solved. But they have stubbornly denied, "No God." And I am stubbornly fighting, "Yes, there is God." That is the . . . now the whole America is combining to fight against me, opposition that, "This man is brainwashing, controlling the mind, and our children are kidnapped." They are bringing these charges against us. Just like you have come. Have I kidnapped you? Dr. Kneupper: Oh, no. Prabhupāda: (laughs) But these rascals say that I have kidnapped their children. Indian man (2): But judgment has been taken. *Prabhupāda: There must be judgment, but people have become so rascal. So I am trying to convince, although single*-handed that, "There is God," and they are bringing opposition. Indian man (2): That is the real philosophy. That is not only Indian philosophy; this is universal philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. God is for everyone. Indian man (2): God, the almighty powerful. Prabhupāda: God is not Hindu God, Muslim God, Christian. God is God. Now when I say: "Here is God. His name is Kṛṣṇa. His father's name is Nanda Mahārāja," now they will laugh. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think if a person is to be a real believer in God he has to also worship Kṛṣṇa or speak of Him? *Prabhupāda: No, God means Kṛṣṇa. He has to understand it. Therefore so many books. God has many names, millions, of which Kṛṣṇa name is the most important. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. Then you have to understand the science of God. How Kṛṣṇa is God, that you have to understand. But for that reason we are publishing so many books. We have already published eighty-four books, simply in English language. And they are being translated in German, French, Portuguese, then Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Hindi, Bengali, like that. Dr. Kneupper: It's a very great effort. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we are getting response. Our books are selling like hotcakes. (laughter) Yes. Indian man (2): This is about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, the person. Indian man (3): : Kṛṣṇa, the person. His book. Indian man (2): His book. Prabhupāda: Here it is written. Indian man (3): : Yes, the Supreme Personality. Prabhupāda: "*Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*." It is written there? Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I saw it. Prabhupāda: "Supreme Personality of Godhead." Yes. *Dr. Kneupper: This is a book of Kṛṣṇa. "The complete resume of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ." Prabhupāda: Tenth Canto. Indian man (3): : The person does not want to solve the questions. They want only to get riches. They want to get rich like . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, they don't want simple things. Indian man (2): And what is the use of becoming rich man? It is all fruitless. Prabhupāda: Rich man you can become, but for how long you shall be rich? The nature is so cruel; *at any moment he'll take away everything. Then what is the use of becoming? No, you become rich man. There is no . . . but you should know that "Although I am rich, powerful, everything can be taken by nature at any moment." Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). That is statement of God, that "Any moment . . . you try to become rich, powerful, and president and minister, that's all right, but any moment, I can take everything from you." So who will protect himself? They have no brain that, "Whatever I have created, it can be taken at any moment." So what is that confidence? They have no inquiry even. That this is a fact. Either you become Napoleon, Hitler or Gandhi or this or that, any moment everything will be taken away, "Get out." Not only that, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), you have to accept another body. And that is no guarantee what body you are going to get, because it is fully under the control of nature. They therefore don't believe in transmigration of the soul. And that is very great botheration. They try to evade. But Kṛṣṇa says, God says: "You cannot evade. It is nature's law." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Within your body the soul is there. On account of presence of the soul—you were a child, now you are a grown young man—the body has changed. You were a boy, now you are young man. So on account of presence of the soul, the body is changing. So when this body will be finished, the soul will exist. Therefore, naturally you have to conclude there will be another body. Dr. Kneupper: Is it possible to escape the conditions of being in the body? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is possible. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And that is the real problem. As soon as you get a body, you are in trouble. Dr. Kneupper: What is the purpose of there being a body? Prabhupāda: Being in body means . . . what is the purpose of being in the jail? Is there any purpose? Dr. Kneupper: Certainly for some punishment. Prabhupāda: Yes. So because we are punished, therefore we are getting this body. Dr. Kneupper: Why does man . . . why does the soul come into the body in the first place? Prabhupāda: Punishment. Dr. Kneupper: But he must have done something . . . Prabhupāda: You want to enjoy. Can you understand this? Everyone is trying to enjoy. So enjoy independently means that you don't care for . . . that is the fact. They don't care for God. So because they don't care for God, therefore they are punished, "You take care of your body." And as soon as you care for God, then there is no material body. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti . So God, therefore, teaches us how to get out of this body. Dr. Kneupper: That's the whole idea of mokṣa ? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Kneupper: Mokṣa ? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is. Mokṣa means to stay in your original body. And bondage means we want different types of enjoyment, so God gives us the facility: "All right. Enjoy." If I do not make any discrimination of food . . . as human being, we must have discrimination. But if you don't discriminate, then you get the body of a pig. You can eat even stool. If you want to eat meat unrestricted, you become a tiger. Nature will give you facility. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara . And there are 8,400,000's of bodies. So according to your desire, you'll get a body. God will give you. Dr. Kneupper: Is that what is meant when a man thinks when he dies, at the moment of his death . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: He goes there. Are there many places, let's say, beyond the physical? Prabhupāda: So many places. Don't you see, night? *Dr. Kneupper: No, I mean beyond this physical, three*-dimensional universe. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is only one*-fourth part manifestation of God's property. The three-fourth part is the spiritual world. Dr. Kneupper: Are there different regions for these higher worlds? *Prabhupāda: Beyond this universe. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). Find. He'll find out. Every information is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . *Dr. Kneupper: In the Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Mmm. That is the beginning of God consciousness. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Naśyatsu na vinaśyati . When everything in this material will be annihilated, that will exist. There is another world. Read it. Hari-śauri: "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." Prabhupāda: Purport? Hari-śauri: Purport: "Kṛṣṇa's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahmā. Kṛṣṇa's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter." Prabhupāda: There are two natures. One is material nature; *one is spiritual nature. The material nature—earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego—and beyond that, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām . This is inferior nature. Beyond this, there is a superior nature. And that superior, jīva*-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). That is the living entity. This big universe, this is material. But the living entities, because they are using this material for their so-called advancement, comforts . . . and because they have the power to utilize these material matters for their own purpose, they are superior. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā . And because this nature is being utilized, one is being utilized and one is utilizer. The utilizer is the superior, and the things utilized, they are inferior, but both of them are nature, God's nature. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā . Dr. Kneupper: Is there time in the higher nature? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Kneupper: Is there time? Prabhupāda: No. Higher nature means eternal. Dr. Kneupper: There are no changes in the higher nature? Prabhupāda: Changes when he gets into this material, inferior nature. He has to change the body, one circumstance to another, another, another, according to his desire. Just like you get a lump of dirt. You can mold it. You can make a pot. You can make a doll. So we are doing that. Child . . . the father has given birth to the child, and father has given the child a lump of earth, and he's playing. That's all. For both of them, the father is the proprietor. If the child wants to play, father says: "All right, play." So he's sometimes breaking, sometimes crying, sometimes laughing. This is going on. Dr. Kneupper: Then he goes back. Prabhupāda: Yes, if he gets sense. Therefore the father comes, that "You give up all this nonsense. Come home." So if you surrender to God, if you have grown up from the childish nature to the real human nature, then surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God. Then our life is perfect. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). (aside) Find out this verse. Hari-śauri: "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." *Prabhupāda: That's it. So everyone can become a great soul if he accepts the proposal of God. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śara . . . (BG 18.66). Everything is solved. But that he'll not do. Just like your first question was the "How to solve these problems?" The problems will be solved as soon as he surrenders to God. But that he'll not do. He is bigger than God. He will make solution by his own plan. This is the difficulty. Dr. Kneupper: Is that because of the age? *Prabhupāda: No, this is the . . . just like anyone is in the prison house, they are all criminals. But some of them are first*-class prisoners, some of them second-class, some of them third-class. But they are prisoner. Similarly, according to different time, people are more or less god . . . godless. So this time is more godless. The prison house is filled up with more third-class prisoners. Dr. Kneupper: How long does that period last? Prabhupāda: Well, now this age will . . . the duration of this age is calculated 4,3200 . . . 432 hundred thousands of years. Out of that we have passed only 500,000 . . . no, five thousand years. Dr. Kneupper: A long time to go. Prabhupāda: Yes. But why should you wait for the long time? You can go back to home, back to . . . immediately. That is our proposal, that "Why should you wait?" This may be long time. But we . . . you give up the connection with the material world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then after giving up this body you go back to home, back to Godhead. Then you have no connection, this. But we are make planning here, "We shall be comfortable." This is rascaldom. Indian man (2): We indulge our time . . . *Prabhupāda: We should stop all rascal plan and should take the plan given by God. Then it will be . . . everything will be all right. Simple solution. The God's plan is there in this book. Let us take it. Then everything is solved. But "No, we are scientist. We are philosopher. We are big man, politician. We shall make our own." Do, and suffer. God has given freedom: "All right." Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Kṛṣṇa is saying in the Bhagavad*-gītā after explaining Arjuna everything, then He asked, "What you have decided? Your plan or My plan?" So Kṛṣṇa said, "I am giving you freedom. Whatever you like, you can do." The plan is there. Now it is up to us to accept it or reject it. If you reject, you suffer. If you accept, you become happy. So we are requesting people, "Accept it." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Then you'll be happy." But who cares for us? He is making his own plan. Therefore he must suffer. Nature's law he cannot avoid. That's not possible. Nature's law, there is drought. And if God likes, immediately there will be rain. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ . That is also stated. (aside) So read that. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, annād . *The formula is there. (devotees looking for verse) Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ , yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ . Annāt , a-n-n-a-t . Get this light there on. Jagadīśa: This one? Prabhupāda: Yes, the outside. So all philosophers, all scientists, all politicians, let us combine together. The formula is there. (aside) Read it. Hari-śauri: "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of yajña , sacrifice, and yajña is born of prescribed duties." *Prabhupāda: That's it. There is no prescribed duties. Everyone is a butcher. Formerly there was distinction: "Here is a butcher," "Here is a religious man." At the present moment everyone is a butcher. Who is religious man? There was division, at least one class, first*-class man, second-class man, third-class man. Then, if there is ideal first-class man, even the fourth class, third class, he'll take the idea, "Oh, here is first class." But there is no first-class man. All fourth-class men. So who will give idea? And they want to remain fourth class. If you say that "You become first class," they will laugh: "What is the use of becoming first class?" First class means, find out, śamo damas titikṣā, then, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam . Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what did you want? You asked me to do something . . . Prabhupāda: I want the light on the veranda. Jagadīśa: It's on. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." *Prabhupāda: And if I teach that "I'll teach you how to become truthful," they will laugh. People will say: "Can anyone exist nowadays, simply becoming truthful?" Then damaḥ , self*-controlled. If I say: "Come here. I shall teach you how to control your senses," he will laugh that, "What is this nonsense? We shall enjoy life, and shall control senses?" This is the description of the first-class man, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava , saralatā , simplicity. No one is prepared to become first-class man. They will laugh. These are all primitive ideas. Dr. Kneupper: You think there is nobody like that? *Prabhupāda: Not nobody, there are. But people generally will not like that, "These are primitive ideas, to become truthful, simple and controlling the mind, controlling . . . these are all imaginary things. How one can live in the struggle for existence by becoming truthful?" They will say like that. Therefore everyone is fourth class. And the second*-class man, kṣatriya? Hari-śauri: "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas ." *Prabhupāda: This is kṣatriya . Now, who is kṣatriya ? A fourth*-class man, he never seen battlefield, and by vote he becomes president. And here kṣatriya means yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam . If there is fight he must come forward first of all. He is in his palace, and he's engaging common men, "Go and fight." When there was Battle of Kurukṣetra, Arjuna and Duryodhana, they came first. Because the battle was decided as soon as the leader is dead. No more fight. So they used to come first. This is kṣatriya . Where is that kṣatriya ? And they are becoming politicians simply by votes, all third-class, fourth-class men. What he'll do? Everyone is trying to keep his position by hook and crook. How he'll think of the people? How they will be happy? He is thinking of his own happiness. And these are politicians. There is no kṣatriya . There is no Brahmin. And there is no vaiśya . What is the vaiśya ? *Hari-śauri: Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). *Prabhupāda: Hmm. A vaiśya means he should provide food. So food means agriculture and giving protection to the cows. If you have got sufficient food grains and milk, the whole food question is solved. And these rascals, they are not giving protection to the cows, but they are killing cows. So there is no third*-class men even. All fourth-class. So how you can be happy under the control of fourth-class men? There is no first-class men, no second-class men, even no third class. That means all fourth class, fifth class. That's all. This is the human society, combination of fourth-, fifth-, tenth-class men. Tenth-class. The fourth-class . . . there are fourth-class men and more than that, fifth-class men, uncivilized. Aborigines, they are fifth class. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). There are so many. In the human civilized . . . civilization means there must be first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Then rest all fifth class, up to tenth class. But at the present moment there is some fourth-class men and all fifth class, sixth class, up to tenth class. So how we can be happy? There is no first-class men, there is no second-class men, not even third-class men. Who is caring for agriculture? They are preparing Goodyear Tire. Now eat tires. You rascal, eat tires. How long you'll eat tires? If there is no customer for tire, they're finished. *So that is coming. I went to Detroit about six months ago. There're factories. They have manufactured the wheels, huge stock. That means they are not selling. And the Goodyear Tire, they advertising, "So many millions tires we are manufacturing." You have been in Detroit? Yes. They're proud that "We have manufactured so many tires, so many wheels." The time will come when there will be no purchaser for tires and wheels, and they'll starve. That is coming. What they will do? If they become hungry there is no food grain. For some time they will eat, killing the cows, and then there will be no food, and what these tire and wheels will do? But there is no first*-class brain, that "We are wasting time by manufacturing tires and wheels. Without wheels we could live, but how we shall live without food grain?" There is no brain, no first-class men, no second-class men, no third-class men. Dr. Kneupper: There are farmers who produce . . . Prabhupāda: Well, in your country there is some adjustment because it is very big country, and you are all intelligent people. In other countries they are . . . but even though you have got resources, if you not properly utilize it, then the bad time is coming. You should expect. If your energy is all engaged in manufacturing tires and wheels, then who will go to the . . . actually I have seen in your country. Now the farmers' son, they do not like to remain in the farm. They go in the city. I have seen it. The farmers' sons, they do not like to take up the profession of his father. So gradually farming will be reduced, and the city residents, they are satisfied if they can eat meat. And the farmer means keeping the . . . raising the cattle and killing them, send to the city, and they will think that, "We are eating. What is the use of going to . . ." But these rascals have no brain that, "If there is no food grain or grass, how these cattle will be . . .?" Actually it is happening. They are eating swiftly. "The cattle will die. Before they die, let us kill and eat." Actually it is happening. In Italy they killed because the problem is twenty thousand cows. This is going on. They do not care that killing is sinful, because they don't care for God. This is going on. And sinful, sinful, sinful, everyone will be punished. The nature's law will act. Thakbaj se gaon ojo. (The village is full of cheaters.) There is a Bengali proverb, thakbaj se gaon ojo, (the village is full of cheaters,) that "One man wanted to take statistics, 'How many thieves are there in this village?' So when he began to take statistics, he saw everyone is thief. Then he said that 'What is the use of making statistics? This is village of thieves, that's all.' " So it is . . . at the present moment this is the position. If you make a statistics who is sinful and who is not sinful, you will find all sinful. And because they are sinful, they decry the existence of God. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante . . . (aside) Find out this, Seventh . . . because they are all sinful, they deny the existence of God. This is the position. Read it. Hari-śauri: "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest amongst mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me." *Prabhupāda: That's it. So you'll find everyone of this description, either sinful or lowest of the mankind or rascal or puffed*-up with false knowledge. But basic principle is: no God. So the only solution is let them first of all become God conscious. Then all solution. Otherwise there is no hope. Dr. Kneupper: The problem is very complex . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it must be complex. They will create complexity. Dr. Kneupper: And the solution is very simple. Prabhupāda: Solution. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām . . . and that we are preaching, that "You become God conscious. Everything will be solved." And who is caring for us? Rather, they are giving opposition that, "These rascals are kidnapping our sons, brainwashing, controlling the mind," creating courts case. Just see. This is going on. Dr. Kneupper: Do you see as a . . . when you're describing that if the world were going to be God conscious, it would . . . Prabhupāda: Everything will be solved. Dr. Kneupper: But you were describing the caste system or the . . . Prabhupāda: This is not caste system. It is natural. There is always an intelligent class of men in the society. So they should be, what is called, listed. They should be trained up properly. Dr. Kneupper: How do you envision . . .? Would you envision . . .? *Prabhupāda: Just like you are a philosopher. So you should not make only theories, "perhaps." But actually, by your philosophy, you establish the existence of God. Then you are philosopher. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya . . . (SB 1.5.22). Find out this verse in the Bhāgavata . Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka . If by your philosophical knowledge you prove, "Yes, there is God," then your philosophy study is perfect. And if you philosophize, "There is no God," that is useless waste of time. To gain popularity, if you make philosophy like . . . in your country there are so many rascal philosophers—Darwin, Freud. They are all rascals. They are predominant. Dr. Kneupper: I think there is some misunderstanding that many Americans may have about teaching that you have. Maybe you can clarify it. Prabhupāda: No you clarify it. It is your duty. You are philosopher. Dr. Kneupper: Well, that's why I am trying to understand it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: I think it's something like this, that . . . I've learned it from other of your devotees, or devotees of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, we have got our books. You are philosopher. You can read. You can understand the whole thing. There is no question of "This devotee, that devotee." We are giving in writing. So we cannot deny that. Dr. Kneupper: The question, though, is that there seems to be an advo . . . you advocate that there be a kind of Vedic society, that you are . . . *Prabhupāda: No, Vedic means knowledge, intelligent society. Why do you understand Vedic? Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda*-vido jñānena . This Veda word coming from knowledge. When I say that, "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Is there any objection? If I say that "Here is Mr. Such-and-such, a man of knowledge," so is there any objection? Dr. Kneupper: Is there a what? Prabhupāda: Is there any objection? Hari-śauri: Is there any objection. Prabhupāda: Will anybody object? Dr. Kneupper: It depends on whether the man shows himself to be a man of knowledge. Prabhupāda: No, no. If I present you that, "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Everyone welcomes knowledge. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, but one has to also show that he has knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is next. First of all, if I say that "Here is a man of knowledge," where is the objection? Now, whether you are man of knowledge, that will be tested next. But if I introduce you that, "Here is a man of knowledge . . ." Similarly if I say: "Here is man who knows *Vedas* ," so why the objection? Knowledge is for everyone. Why do they take, "Oh, *Vedas* , oh, it is Hindu"? Immediately you reject. Dr. Kneupper: I don't think it's so much question of rejecting the *Vedas* . . . *Prabhupāda: No, Vedas , they do not know what is Vedas . They think it is Hindu. This is the difficulty. As soon as say " Bhagavad*-gītā ," "Oh, it is Hindu idea." Dr. Kneupper: Well, many, many people do . . . *Prabhupāda: But that means they do not know what is the meaning of Bhagavad*-gītā , what is the meaning of Vedas . Unnecessarily they put some outside . . . just like they are doing now. They do not know what is knowledge, and they are accusing us that we are brainwashing. We are forbidding our devotees, "Don't eat meat." Oh, they are taking it: "It is revolutionary. Eh? How these men, they are stopping?" (someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (4): Apni bhalo achen? Ami Bholanath. Ami Benaras e thaki, ami ajke . . . (How are you? I am Bholanath. I am from Benaras, today . . .) (break) *Prabhupāda: So this is difficulty. If I say, "Here is a person who knows mathematics," why there should be . . . any person who is interested in mathematics will welcome him. So similarly, here is Vedic knowledge. Vedic knowledge means real knowledge. Here is Bhagavad*-gītā , the knowledge of God, but they misunderstand it. They think, "Oh, we have got another God." How God can be another? So people should be sober, that we are giving books. They should understand. And it is accepted by the educated class, big, big professors, big, big philosophers. It is not blind faith. Just like this version of Bhagavad-gītā , tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "As we are changing body even in this duration of life, similarly, when this body is finished, then another body." So where is the difficulty to understand? But they will say, "It is Hindu idea." Fact we are presenting that, "You are changing your body. When you came out of the womb of your mother, the body was so small. And then little bigger body, little bigger body, little bigger body. Now you are full-grown young man." So the body is changing, everyone can understand. But I can understand also that, "I had so big . . . small body and this body. Then body is changing; I am existing." Then where is the difficulty of the transmigration of the soul? Dr. Kneupper: Many people do accept it. Prabhupāda: But as soon as we say . . . "Oh, this is Hindu idea"; reject immediately. This is science, and they are taking "Hindu idea." Indian man (2): The problem is that identification only Indian philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise it is universal philosophy. Prabhupāda: It is universal, but they are taking it as Indian. Indian man (2): In order to identify that, Vedic, let's say Indian, actually that is not Indian. *Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be, knowledge is knowledge. It may be Indian or American, it doesn't matter. Just like university. Some student from India go to university in America to study higher knowledge. So that means that because he has gone to America, that is American knowledge? Knowledge is knowledge. So they should take on this background. But they are thinking that we are spoiling their children, brainwashing, controlling the mind, because against their principle, against their uncivilized way of life: meat*-eating, illicit sex, intoxication. This is uncivilized life. Why a man, civilized man, shall eat meat? He can prepare so many nice things. He has learned how to produce food, food grain. When they are uncivilized—there is no food; they do not know how to grow food—they can eat animal in the jungle. But if after becoming civilized, if you are eating the same thing, then what is the difference between civilization and not civilization? You have learned. And especially in your America you can get all nice foodstuff. You have got sufficient grains, sufficient fruits, sufficient vegetables, sufficient . . . everything sufficient. Why you should eat meat? This is uncivilized life. They could not give up the uncivilized way of life. And when you teach that "You become civilized. Give up this all nonsense. Don't eat." "Oh, it is brainwashing." You see? We are teaching them to become civilized, and they are taking it brainwashing. *Dr. Kneupper: Is that a teaching of the Bhagavad*-gītā , that one should not eat meat? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not . . . meat*-eating is third-class man's eating. It is not denied. Amedhya . But to give us our life, don't kill cows, because it gives you milk, very substantial food. If you want to eat meat, you can eat the hogs and dogs. But don't kill the cows. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). This is special. It is not forbidding meat-eating, but don't eat cows' flesh. That is loss. It is a great loss to the human society. If they do not have sufficient milk production, then their brain will be dull. They will not be able to understand subtle things. Therefore it is better to avoid it. But if you cannot avoid, you can eat some inferior, useless animals. But don't touch the cows. This is Bhagavad-gītā . Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . He never says pig- rakṣya . You can eat pig. You can eat the goats, the lambs. There are so many small useless animals. They are eating dogs also. The Chinese people, they eat dogs. *So you can eat dogs, hogs, so many other animals. But don't touch the cows. This is God's instruction. And they are advertising that, "The Hindus, they are so fool, they are worshiping an animal, a cow." They do not know what is the economic value of this cow. In the beginning of your life you want milk immediately in the morning. And you are killing the mother. You are civilized? Do you think? You take milk up to the point of death. In South Africa, before killing the cows, they drag out milk and then send it. Milk is important, but because they are uncivilized, they do this. You take milk. Instead of killing, you prepare so many nice things from milk which is good for brain, good for intelligence. But they do not know because uncivilized. Foolish fourth*-class men. So we are trying to bring them to become first-class men, and they are accusing of brainwash. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." We are teaching that "These boys, they are becoming first class." Anyone will worship them. How nice they look, how behavior, how their character. We are creating this, and they are accusing, "Oh, they are kidnapping our children." (aside to guest) Why you are going? Eh? Why you are going? Indian man (2): . . . ap baat kijiye. (. . . please continue.) *Prabhupāda: Ācchā . So this is our position. Now you are philosophers. You try to understand the whole philosophy and combine together. People have become all fourth*-class, tenth-class, uncivilized men. They should be given the idea of God consciousness. I don't say only in the Western country. Everywhere this is the problem, all fourth-class men. So there is possibility to bring the fourth-class men to the first class. That is educational. It can be done. There is no difficulty. So this is the education, how to make fourth-class men or fifth-class men to come to the first-class standard. (aside) What is that? Which verse I wanted? Jagadīśa: Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the *Vedas* , sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, suppose you are a well*-known philosopher. If you say: "There is God," so many people will hear, "Oh, here is a big philosopher." Therefore your studies of philosophy will be perfect when you establish, "Yes, there is God." Otherwise it is useless, because you will waste your time and you'll waste . . . already they are godless. Dr. Kneupper: How does one establish clearly? *Prabhupāda: That requires thinking. That requires knowledge. Therefore we are giving so many books. You can study. You can present the case nicely with argument, philosophy. That is your duty. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānu . . . when you are able to describe God very philosophically, scientifically, mathematically, then your education is perfect. Dr. Kneupper: Are there any books particularly that focus on all this? *Prabhupāda: Every . . . there are so many books. There are so many books. The primary book is the Bhagavad*-gītā , yes, as it is, if you take it as it is. If you amend it to your whimsical way, then it is gone. Therefore we are presenting. This word we have added, Bhagavad-gītā "As It Is." Don't try to amend it. Then it will be foolishness. *Dr. Kneupper: If I wanted to know Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, you'd have to read Sanskrit, wouldn't you? Prabhupāda: No, we have this English translation. This is in French translation, in German translation. Dr. Kneupper: How does one decide . . . there are so many translations. How does one decide . . . *Prabhupāda: That depends on your philosophy. You are reading so many books. How do you select, "This is nice"? That depends on your philosophy. But if you accept it that it is spoken by God, then there is no argument. But why should you accept it, spoken by God? You read it, whether how much logical, how much full of knowledge. Then you can say. The same thing—just like Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "Within this body there is the soul, and because the soul is there, therefore body is changing." So anyone can . . . any layman can understand. Things are there like that. So there is no difficulty. If we take, "Oh, this description, the transmigration of the soul—Hindu idea." Why Hindu idea? It is science. Dr. Kneupper: One usually thinks of it as Hindu because . . . Prabhupāda: As soon as we consider it "Hindu," then it becomes sectarian. Then you will say: "I have got my Christian idea. Why shall I take your Hindu idea?" Dr. Kneupper: What is your view towards Christianity? Prabhupāda: Christianity is to some extent, but you have got different edition of Christianity. So far I know, as soon as they say: "Christian," immediately the question, "To which Christian party you belong?" What is that? Hari-śauri: Christians, yeah. Protestants, Methodists, Catholics . . . *Prabhupāda: So which is correct Christianity we do not know. But we have no such thing. There is no party. Bhagavad*-gītā , there cannot be any party. If anyone makes any party, he is immediately cancelled. But at least we believe in the Ten Commandments. Now, Lord Jesus Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." But why all the Christians are simply busy in killing? That is my first question. Dr. Kneupper: Not all of them believe in . . . *Prabhupāda: Ninety*-nine percent, they are maintaining all big, big slaughterhouse, all Christians. And Lord Jesus Christ ordered, "Thou shall not kill," but they are killing. What kind of Christian he is? Disobedience to the order of Christ, and still he is Christian? These things are going on. Then again party, this "ism," that "ism," that "ism." First of all, all of them are disobeying the Ten Commandments, and then there are parties. So which one you'll accept? *Dr. Kneupper: There's no such diversity of interpretation of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from Bhagavad*-gītā , I am talking of Christianity. How you can disobey the orders of Christ and you become Christian at the same time? Dr. Kneupper: There's always people falling short of what their . . . Prabhupāda: That's it. That means they are all useless. If you are Christian, how you can defy the order of Christ? You will disobey the orders of Christ; *still you are Christian? Just like in India they are all denying the Vedic culture, and still they are Hindu? All these rascals. So therefore I say whole world is full of rascals. If the Christians accept this word, that Lord says: "Thou shall not kill," why shall we kill? Welcome. Never mind whether Christian or Hindu. Welcome. Similarly, in India, if they accept Bhagavad*-gītā , welcome. But everyone is rascal, mūḍha . Nobody cares for God, nobody cares for God's messenger. All rascals. This is the position. They are creating God. They are creating religion. They are creating sect. This is going on. Dr. Kneupper: (indistinct) . . . even though they are sincere . . . *Prabhupāda: That should be educated from the very beginning. Therefore we are opening gurukulas, sane brain. Otherwise their brain is spoiled by so*-called bad education. I inquired from your State Secretary that, "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so why not spread this God consciousness, 'What is God?' You blindly say, 'God in Trust,' but what is God? Do you know? So why not spread this science?" I received no reply up to date. They might have said: "Here is a crazy fellow. Nobody has inquired like this." That's all. They do not like to enter into the controversy. Actually they do not believe in God, but write, "In God We Trust," is it not? Dr. Kneupper: That's what they write. Prabhupāda: Yes, but they don't believe in God. Hypocrisy. Because if they trust in God, then they could not cheat that, "I am paying you one thousand dollars by some papers." This is cheating. And promise, "In God I Trust." Is that money? So this cheating is begun from the government. Now how the people will be honest? Everywhere, in all government, they are giving you some papers and you accept it as money. This is not brainwash. Just see. They are educating people that, "I promise to pay. This is money," but actually he's receiving some papers. This is not brainwash. And we are talking of God, that is brainwash. Dr. Kneupper: Perhaps when people . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, this is the present situation. When people will be honest, that is future. Dr. Kneupper: But I mean now, when they make these confrontations and give you these difficulties, perhaps it will give your people a chance to teach them and clarify . . . Prabhupāda: Well, that we are doing, but this is the opposition. That our boys are trained up. They are trying to meet the opposition. But my point is that such a nice thing we are giving. Why they should oppose? That means uncivilized. Why good thing should be opposed? They say: "In God We Trust," and we are speaking of God only. We have no other business, and they are opposing. And they write, "In God We Trust." Hypocrisy. "If we believe in God, we trust in God, all right, they are talking of God. Let us hear." That is sense. That Patrick? Patrick? He kidnaps our devotees. Hari-śauri: Ted Patrick. Prabhupāda: Yes. And by force trying to give him meat but now, if educated men of your country, they come forward, understand this philosophy, then combined effort . . . my philosophy is that American and Indian: American money and Indian culture, combine together; *the whole world will be changed. That is my philosophy. It is coming to some extent. These American boys, they help me. (aside) What is that newspaper cutting? Appeared in Bombay? Bring it. They have published this philosophy, my philosophy. Actually, if I not have gone to America, at least I could not publish . . . (indistinct) . . . when I was in India, with great difficulty I published three books only. And because I went to America, I was able to publish eighty*-four books. And it is going on still. These boys help me. Just like they are publishing now, still. Hmm. Read it. Jagadīśa: "The West is like a blind man, and the East is like a cripple . . ." Prabhupāda: No, read the heading and everything. Jagadīśa: (indistinct) . . . "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma, written by the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . the West is like a blind man, and the East is like a cripple, says A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder-ācārya of the International Society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The two should cooperate. The blind man should carry his lame companion, and the lame man should give guidance to his blind friend. In this way both will benefit. Similarly, the wealthier Western countries should assist the materially exploited East, and the East, particularly India, should help the spiritually blind West to understand scientifically the actual higher purpose of human life. To offer India's transcendental science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the West, Prabhupāda sailed from Bombay to New York City in 1965. After a year of great personal struggle, he established the first center of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In the next few years he attracted hundreds of sincere disciples and opened centers in dozens of American and European cities. He also established gurukula schools and farming communities based on the ancient Indian pattern. "In 1970 Prabhupāda returned to India and with the assistance of many Indian gentlemen and some of his disciples, he established ISKCON centers in Bombay, Delhi, Calcutta, Madras and the rural holy spots of Vṛndāvana, Lord Kṛṣṇa's place, and Māyāpur, West Bengal, the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Soon he attracted many Indian disciples as well, who opened centers in Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Chandigarh and in several rural areas. Today ISKCON has about one hundred āśramas , gurukula schools, temples and farming communities around the world. But according to Prabhupāda, his books are his most important contribution. In the last ten years he has published over eighty volumes in sixteen languages. Scholars in India and abroad have praised Prabhupāda's books as classics, scholarly and authoritative. Literally crores of his literatures are sold annually, and this figure is almost doubling every year. "How is it possible to sell so many books about Kṛṣṇa? Girirāja, president of the ISKCON center in Bombay, answers, 'People all over the world are looking to India for transcendental knowledge. They know that India's ancient Sanskrit literature speaks of lasting happiness beyond the frustration of material life. They are eager to buy our books because they know that we are presenting the genuine Vedic culture. In fact, many Westerners come here to discover the real India for themselves . . . (indistinct) . . . life experience. For this reason we are building a model Vedic community at our Juhu center in Bombay, providing all the modern amenities for scholars, students and sophisticated inquirers from abroad as well as from India who can study the original Indian culture and practice. The center will include a Vedic library, theater, prasādam restaurant, gurukula school, an international guesthouse, as well as a temple and āśrama .' *"ISKCON is also building a model Vedic community in Māyāpur near Calcutta based on cottage industry and agriculture. The important principle is that everyone must be gainfully employed. In ISKCON's Māyāpur project hundreds of persons operate spinning wheels and more than a dozen handlooms, dye the cloth, and . . . (indistinct) . . . printed in popular design, process rice and dāl by hand, crush sugarcane for sugar products, and manufacture by hand wooden shoes and other items of daily use. On twenty*-five acres of agricultural land in Māyāpur, ISKCON is developing and demonstrating scientific farming procedures such as crop rotation, organic fertilization, and using improved strains. ISKCON is also cross-breeding cattle from Canada and Australia with Indian cows to increase milk production. Thus the community provides its own cloth, food, and other daily needs, acts as an agricultural development and demonstration center, and additionally feeds thousands of people twice every week. Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON plans, the Māyāpur project will extend into a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand . . ." Prabhupāda: We have applied for 350 acres of land from the government. The process is going on. If we get, then we shall spend crores of rupees for . . . the description is . . . Jagadīśa: "Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON plans, the Māyāpur project will extend to a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand inhabitants, its own university, airport and stadium. It will also claim the world's largest planetarium, with 410 foot high Temple of Understanding . . ." (break) . . . Vedic civilization. Dr. Kneupper: It sounds like a beautiful project. That is near Bombay, now? Prabhupāda: No, that is near Calcutta. Dr. Kneupper: Calcutta. Prabhupāda: About sixty miles. Dr. Kneupper: Have they progressed much now? *Prabhupāda: Yes, the enquiry is finished. Now government is considering to give that land. If they give, we shall like that. There were many others, land offers, in Hyderabad, but I wanted to start this institution in the . . . on the birth*-site of Lord Caitanya. Otherwise we have got better land. We have asked government for 350 acres, but we have already got, in Hyderabad, 600 acres. Here also we can get immediately 500, 600 acres, like that. We have already got another plot of land, 100 acres, in Ahmedabad. So there are so many lands available, but I wanted to start this project in Māyāpur, the birthsite of Lord Caitanya. Therefore we are waiting. If they say no, then we shall attempt it somewhere else. Indian man: In Calcutta also there is a project? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is not very important. Dr. Kneupper: Well, it's been most interesting to meet you and hear you. I . . . unfortunately I have to go to Agra this evening. So I really want to thank you, and I will remember this, and I will read your writings and think very deeply on what you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: . . . said to me and . . . (indistinct) . . . this . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I recited also. It is the real utilization of every education. *Dr. Kneupper: Right. But the Bhagavad*-gītā is very wonder . . . it's . . . since I first read it, it's been one of my favorite . . . Prabhupāda: You are reading? Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I . . . I try to read it frequently, because it gives me some real spiritual . . . Prabhupāda: And if you want to know further, you can write to me. Dr. Kneupper: Good. I'll take back your blessing to Slippery Rock when I go back there. Prabhupāda: Yes, and there, so many old friends, you can offer them. Dr. Kneupper: Okay. Dr. Morrison and Dr. Sharma, so many other people . . . Prabhupāda: There is Sydney Weld there, when I went. Dr. Kneupper: Very good. Is the friend which you were . . . you were staying with somebody in Butler? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: Is he still there? Prabhupāda: No. That friend was one of my friends' son. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Prabhupāda: The boy went there for learning engineering. But she (he) settled there marrying one English girl. I became his guest for about a month. Then I came to New York. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Was the place Slippery Rock? Was that the first college . . .? Prabhupāda: No, the place was Butler. Dr. Kneupper: You were in Butler, right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: And then you spoke at a college. Prabhupāda: In the college, yes. Dr. Kneupper: Every time I go to that hall I remember the story that you spoke there. Prabhupāda: Oh, they still say. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. You must have left some kind of blessing upon it. It has a nice atmosphere. Prabhupāda: That was in 1965. *Dr. Kneupper: Sixty*-five. That far back. Prabhupāda: About eleven years ago. Dr. Kneupper: Such a short time, and so many changes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: The growth, the temple here, beautiful. On my next trip to India . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, you can come and stay here or in Bombay. We have got . . . Dr. Kneupper: But I want to see the one . . . the city when it's constructed. That would be really . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, that is . . . yes. Dr. Kneupper: I hope that is . . . in Calcutta will be a success story. Prabhupāda: You have got the contemplative man with you . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Yes, sir. Dr. Kneupper: This will be over 300 acres if it's . . . Prabhupāda: Three hundred fifty acres. Dr. Kneupper: It's a large city. Fifty thousand, did you say, people? How many people were there? Jagadīśa: Fifty thousand. Dr. Kneupper: Fifty thousand. Prabhupāda: Expecting fifty thousand. The real peace movement. Jagadīśa: That's what we're trying to bring together here in this city. (indistinct conversation going on as plans are shown) and then all around, the different communities, vaiśya community, the merchant community, trade community . . . (indistinct) . . . their own communities. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Hari-śauri: According to the Vedic system (indistinct speaking as devotees explain the plans) Prabhupāda: You have got? Jagadīśa: That's the purport to that verse? Read? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. *Jagadīśa: "Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire to the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu*-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection or self realization depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. "Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation of the Lord or His different energies because the Lord has set in motion by His inconceivable energy actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is therefore different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them. When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord the whole process becomes absolute." "The Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him. Therefore all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all the branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets, and celebrated littérateurs are generally engaged in writing sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord, they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord, and by doing so they become immortal. Similarly science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord." *"There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all*-powerful. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All knowledge not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord. And that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factual hari-kīrtana , for the glorification of the Lord." Dr. Kneupper: Well I will remember this. And I will read, look into your writings much more closely . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: . . . when I get back. Could I ask you if you might sign . . . put your name in . . . autograph? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Kneupper: Could you do that, please? Prabhupāda: So you can give him that book. Devotee: Scientific Basis? Prabhupāda: Would you like to read this book? Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I will read that, yes. Prabhupāda: So I'll sign in that book. Dr. Kneupper: Okay, okay, fine. Yes, that would be good. Very good. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Kneupper: Thank you very much for your time . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, I thank you for your coming. We want educated boys like you. Dr. Kneupper: Good. Well, I will communicate what you said. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Kneupper: I think . . . as soon as I . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . all human society. It is not a sectarian movement. Dr. Kneupper: Well, I'm very glad I had the chance to meet you, to learn . . . because when you meet . . . when you hear things second source . . . secondary source, it's not like . . . Prabhupāda: Do you think our presentation is all right? Dr. Kneupper: Yes. It's very fine. And I'll try to help the people . . . my mother is from Texas. My family lives there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Kneupper: And I'll try to help them understand better what the situation is. So . . . Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (break) (end) (partially recorded) Prabhupāda: . . . still in the jungle. And they show the picture, Darwin's theory . . . Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Stoning animals. Hari-śauri: Prehistoric man. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Prehistoric man. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So now civilization is not stoning the animal. "I have up*-to-date slaughterhouse." This is their civilization. Hari-śauri: Killing in big slaughterhouse. Prabhupāda: They remain the same thing, the animal eaters, but the process has changed. Process changed. Instead of stoning, in big, big cities haan, aur . . . (yes, and . . .) (aside) Ah. All right . . . you stand here, open up to the slaughterhouse, butcher. This is going on. Your standard remains the same. Hari-śauri: Yeah, doing the same thing. *Prabhupāda: Simply the, what is called, operation is changed. That is civilization. They have taken this is standard also in India. There was lamp, and the same lamp, now it is electricity, electric power. This is their civilization. There was some car, horse carriage, horse*-drawn carriage or cow-drawn carriage. Now you have a car. Is it not? Hari-śauri: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They do not know what is civilization. This is actual fact. They do not know what is civilization. This is civilization, huh? Brāhmaṇa . And they will think that, "What is this nonsense, to worship a brāhmaṇa , to give food to the brāhmaṇa*-bhojana ?" They have manufactured, "Why brāhmaṇa-bhojana ? There is . . . (indistinct) . . . they're daridra-nārāyaṇa ." (end) (partially recorded) Prabhupāda: . . . still in the jungle. And they show the picture, Darwin's theory . . . Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Stoning animals. Hari-śauri: Prehistoric man. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Prehistoric man. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So now civilization is not stoning the animal. "I have up*-to-date slaughterhouse." This is their civilization. Hari-śauri: Killing in big slaughterhouse. Prabhupāda: They remain the same thing, the animal eaters, but the process has changed. Process changed. Instead of stoning, in big, big cities haan, aur . . . (yes, and . . .) (aside) Ah. All right . . . you stand here, open up to the slaughterhouse, butcher. This is going on. Your standard remains the same. Hari-śauri: Yeah, doing the same thing. *Prabhupāda: Simply the, what is called, operation is changed. That is civilization. They have taken this is standard also in India. There was lamp, and the same lamp, now it is electricity, electric power. This is their civilization. There was some car, horse carriage, horse*-drawn carriage or cow-drawn carriage. Now you have a car. Is it not? Hari-śauri: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They do not know what is civilization. This is actual fact. They do not know what is civilization. This is civilization, huh? Brāhmaṇa . And they will think that, "What is this nonsense, to worship a brāhmaṇa , to give food to the brāhmaṇa*-bhojana ?" They have manufactured, "Why brāhmaṇa-bhojana ? There is . . . (indistinct) . . . they're daridra-nārāyaṇa ." (end) Prabhupāda: So I saw that one, that Mr. Maidan, he has got so many boxes all down his room. So I ask him, "What are these?" "No, these are different cinema house collection. The ticket, half of the ticket, is put into this box before entering. So I count this slip. Then I can understand what is the income. That's all. Let them do whatever they . . ." So I am simply asking, "How many books they are selling?" (laughter) If the sale is going on, "All right, that's all right. Let them do whatever they like." The books are printed and distributed? That is all right. Then other things, you do whatever you like. Never ask. Where is Arundhatī? Hari-śauri: Probably still upstairs. Prabhupāda: Ask her to make that bitter melon separately in little quantity. Hari-śauri: Just fried or . . . Prabhupāda: No, boil and then fried. Make it soft. So any letter? All right. (break) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Antardhyāna: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Everyone is going to die. Who is going to live? Who is here? Can you show me anyone who is going to live? Can you show me? Antardhyāna: No, everybody's going to die. Prabhupāda: So today or tomorrow, everyone will die. So where is the anxiety? Die or not die, tomorrow or today, but one should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Why one should be depressed? And everyone is going to die. I am going to die tomorrow, he is going to die day after tomorrow, he . . . everyone will have to die. Who will live here? So what is the anxiety? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, she'll die here . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Nobody will live. Don't be anxiety. That's all. Anyone who has come to this material world will die. One is going to die today; another is going to die tomorrow. It is a question of first and second, but everyone will die. So before death one should be complete in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success of life. Antardhyāna: But if one . . . Prabhupāda: The tree is standing for thousands of years. So what is the use of living like that? A tree cannot chant Hare Kṛṣṇa but lives for thousands of years. Do you think that kind of living is very worthy, standing in one place, cannot move even, and what to speak of chanting? So you have got the chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Utilize that. Don't be anxious that, "I am going to die." Who is going to live? Why don't you understand that? Nobody is going to live. So before death one should be complete in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success. Manīṣā: (Antardhyāna's young daughter, terminally ill) But if one is not, Śrīla Prabhupāda, what will happen? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: If one is not complete in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness then what will happen? Prabhupāda: She will get again birth in a human body. That is guaranteed so that he'll get again chance of chanting. That is also great gain. Ordinary person, he does not know what body he is going to get next body. But a person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, chanting, he is guaranteed. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe ( BG 6.41). He is guaranteed to take birth as human being in a very sacred family like brāhmaṇa or very rich family. (pause) So I have to go. Manīṣā: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is going to live here. Everyone is going to die. Before death, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Manīṣā: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't be worried. Antardhyāna: She is worried, Prabhupāda, about . . . Prabhupāda: What is the worry? I have already said everyone is going to die. Antardhyāna: She is worried about seeing the Yamadūtas. This is what she is worried about. Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, always think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Manīṣā: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: This is our business. The cats and dogs cannot do this. That is the advantage of human form of body. Antardhyāna: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Manīṣā: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Manīṣā: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Prabhupāda: So I saw that one, that Mr. Maidan, he has got so many boxes all down his room. So I ask him, "What are these?" "No, these are different cinema house collection. The ticket, half of the ticket, is put into this box before entering. So I count this slip. Then I can understand what is the income. That's all. Let them do whatever they . . ." So I am simply asking, "How many books they are selling?" (laughter) If the sale is going on, "All right, that's all right. Let them do whatever they like." The books are printed and distributed? That is all right. Then other things, you do whatever you like. Never ask. Where is Arundhatī? Hari-śauri: Probably still upstairs. Prabhupāda: Ask her to make that bitter melon separately in little quantity. Hari-śauri: Just fried or . . . Prabhupāda: No, boil and then fried. Make it soft. So any letter? All right. (break) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Antardhyāna: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Everyone is going to die. Who is going to live? Who is here? Can you show me anyone who is going to live? Can you show me? Antardhyāna: No, everybody's going to die. Prabhupāda: So today or tomorrow, everyone will die. So where is the anxiety? Die or not die, tomorrow or today, but one should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Why one should be depressed? And everyone is going to die. I am going to die tomorrow, he is going to die day after tomorrow, he . . . everyone will have to die. Who will live here? So what is the anxiety? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, she'll die here . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Nobody will live. Don't be anxiety. That's all. Anyone who has come to this material world will die. One is going to die today; another is going to die tomorrow. It is a question of first and second, but everyone will die. So before death one should be complete in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success of life. Antardhyāna: But if one . . . Prabhupāda: The tree is standing for thousands of years. So what is the use of living like that? A tree cannot chant Hare Kṛṣṇa but lives for thousands of years. Do you think that kind of living is very worthy, standing in one place, cannot move even, and what to speak of chanting? So you have got the chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Utilize that. Don't be anxious that, "I am going to die." Who is going to live? Why don't you understand that? Nobody is going to live. So before death one should be complete in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success. Manīṣā: (Antardhyāna's young daughter, terminally ill) But if one is not, Śrīla Prabhupāda, what will happen? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: If one is not complete in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness then what will happen? Prabhupāda: She will get again birth in a human body. That is guaranteed so that he'll get again chance of chanting. That is also great gain. Ordinary person, he does not know what body he is going to get next body. But a person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, chanting, he is guaranteed. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe ( BG 6.41). He is guaranteed to take birth as human being in a very sacred family like brāhmaṇa or very rich family. (pause) So I have to go. Manīṣā: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is going to live here. Everyone is going to die. Before death, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Manīṣā: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't be worried. Antardhyāna: She is worried, Prabhupāda, about . . . Prabhupāda: What is the worry? I have already said everyone is going to die. Antardhyāna: She is worried about seeing the Yamadūtas. This is what she is worried about. Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, always think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Manīṣā: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: This is our business. The cats and dogs cannot do this. That is the advantage of human form of body. Antardhyāna: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Manīṣā: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Manīṣā: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . education, devotion, activities. Who can take more care than the father and the mother? So you combine together, make a batch of good character, ideal character in the whole world. There is no ideal character. Everyone is drunkard and meat*-eater or woman-hunter. What is the civilization? Hog civilization. (break) . . . civilization. Work hard, get some money, and spend it for intoxication, illicit sex. This is civilization. Is it not? They have no idea how to make civilized. Mahāvīra: I was hearing that before I left England there was some trouble in Scotland over the rules about the bars and drinking. And now they want to make a rule, a law, that the children can be allowed into the bars under their parents' . . . they make it a big social . . . Prabhupāda: They allow the children sit down. They take soda water, and the father, mother drinking. I have seen it. They are learning from the father and mother from the begin . . . Hari-śauri: My father used to . . . every Sunday they used to go to the pub, and then for Sunday afternoon, as a special treat, they would all get . . . we'd be given a glass of beer. Prabhupāda: Just see. Father, mother take . . . because they think it is civilization. Elderly boys, the father, mother tell, "What is the wrong, illicit sex? Take woman, take car. Enjoy life." I have seen it. They know, "This is life. Why . . .?" Therefore they say: "Brainwash. This Swāmījī is controlling their minds and brainwash." That is their charge. (pause) Prabhupāda: Wash, ne. The brain should be operated, surgical, to take out all the rubbish things from the . . . it is called membrane? Pradyumna: Cerebrum? Prabhupāda: Cereb? Hari-śauri: Cerebral. Prabhupāda: Cere . . . not . . . it is all gobar . Take out. (pause) Prabhupāda: (referring to prasādam distribution) Ne , make khicuṛi . Mahāvīra: Puṣpānna rice? Prabhupāda: Little, little. Mahāvīra: Always keep it simple: purīs , one, and one other thing? Prabhupāda: No, one kind. Either purī or puṣpānna or khicuṛi , like that. You cannot make. Mahāvīra: Tonight I made sabjī and purī . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is easiest, purī and sabjī Similarly, khicuṛi and sabjī , puṣpānna and chutney, like that. Temple means feeding them with prasādam . In Bombay the Sunday Feast going on? Saurabha: We don't have so much facility to feed them, because there's only the temple floor, so there's always a big crowd and we have to do two shifts. So sometimes . . . Prabhupāda: When it will be complete, more facility. Saurabha: Oh, yes, then it will be . . . everything . . . *Prabhupāda: Take prasādam , see drama, read books, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās . And if you like, you can live with us. So where is the difficulty? Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā (BS 5.37). (pause) Prabhupāda: That American politician has predicted that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, within ten years, they will capture our government." (laughs) So do it actually. (laughter) Then it will be very nice. It is not . . . simply take the people in your favor—the government is yours. That they are afraid of. The young boys, they are taking Hare Kṛṣṇa movement seriously, so the government can be changed in their favor. After all, it is democracy, you can do it. You become president; you'll become senator. In America it is possible. And if America accepts . . . what about this new president? Or . . . formerly I heard about him that he is religious man. Saurabha: His mother is . . . she was working in India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Saurabha: So she's very favorable towards India. She was some type of social worker in India. Prabhupāda: His mother? Oh. Then at least he has got some good thinking. *Saurabha: They said . . . there's a movie star in Bombay, and he is . . . he's a friend of this Carter. So Jagat*-puruṣa is going to approach him. He's a very good friend of . . . because his mother, she was working in India and she knew this family. So they have a lot of friends in India. Prabhupāda: At least let them understand the philosophy. Balavanta may see and explain the philosophy. Jagadīśa: Balavanta knows him. Pradyumna: Did Balavanta meet him? Jagadīśa: I think so. Balavanta's . . . there was one man, a black man who was running for mayor at the same time that Balavanta was, for Atlanta. And that black man dropped out of the race and supported Balavanta. Prabhupāda: He's a black man. Jagadīśa: Yes. Then later on, that man, he was appointed Lieutenant Governor under Carter. So Carter and this man are close, and through this man, Carter knows about Balavanta and the movement. Prabhupāda: You have written one letter? Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Balavanta is very intelligent boy. He can do that. (pause) Prabhupāda: Bring that spring water, little. You can type this? Jagadīśa: On your letterhead? Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one of the students is just about fifteen, and he's been initiated now for a year, and I'd like to recommend him for second initiation. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . good hope for preaching in China. I have received letter from Trivikrama Mahārāja. What she is doing, Carter's mother, here? He's in India? Jagadīśa: Not anymore. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jagadīśa: She must have been a missionary. Hari-śauri: Part of the Peace Corps or something? Jagadīśa: Oh, that's it. She worked with the Peace Corps. Prabhupāda: Peace port? Jagadīśa: Peace Corps. Prabhupāda: What is that? Jagadīśa: That's an American organization. It sends out people all over the world to help the . . . Hari-śauri: Like a social workers' organization. Mahāvīra: Like when they have earthquakes and hurricanes in countries, the Peace Corps will go there, and they will do all the nursing and doctoring and helping people get homes . . . Prabhupāda: So unless there is earthquake, they will not work. Jagadīśa: No, that's not the Peace Corps. Pradyumna: They send Peace Corps . . . Tejiyas was in Peace Corps. Tejiyas was in the Peace Corps. He was sent to India. In Telengana he was helping with agriculture. He would go to some village, underdeveloped. He would teach them how to plant nicely, fertilize, different things. Hari-śauri: He knows about that? Pradyumna: Yes, he knows all about agriculture. Hari-śauri: Why don't we send him to Hyderabad? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: He worked there for about . . . Prabhupāda: Let him go to Hyderabad. Pradyumna: He knows all about agriculture. Prabhupāda: Mm. Hari-śauri: And he speaks the language, too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: It was Kennedy's idea, the Peace Corps. Kennedy started it. They started it because many young men did not want to go in the Army, but Army was forcible. So they said: "If you go in the Peace Corps, then you don't have to go in the war corps—you don't have to go in Army." So many people took that, "Oh, we'll go in the Peace Corps. We'll go as an alternative." Prabhupāda: Good idea. Saurabha: It has lost its popularity now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Saurabha: It is not very popular now. Prabhupāda: Why? Saurabha: In fact, in India they have ordered to leave, practically. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Saurabha: They say they had some connection with the CIA. Prabhupāda: That is politics. Saurabha: Yes, but . . . *Prabhupāda: He was a politician. That you cannot blame. Politics require all these things. A politician cannot be a saintly person. That is not possible. For politics he has to do so many things. That is necessary. Just like Arjuna wanted to be a nonviolent. Immediately it was condemned by Kṛṣṇa, "What is this nonsense? You are a military man. Nonviolent?" And similarly, politician, they require all this. Businessman must deal in black market. It is inevitable. Otherwise he cannot improve. Because the world is bad, you, if you become honest, then you cannot make pros . . . cannot become prosperous. Sate sārtham samācaret. Brāhmaṇa's dealing must be very straight and honest. They are not meant for politics or business. They are for transcendental knowledge. Kṛṣṇa conscious person should be all*-inclusive. He must be a politician, he must be a Brahmin , he must be a kṣatriya , he must be a śūdra —everything, all-inclusive. Because he is transcendental. In otherwise, he is neither a Brahmin , neither a śūdra , neither a . . . yes. Nāhaṁ vipro na ca nara-patir na yatir vā (Padyāvalī 63). Neither of these. In other side he is everything. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. As Kṛṣṇa is sometimes cowherd boy, politician, sometimes dancing with, artist—He is everything, not one-sided. (pause) Prabhupāda: So all food is finished? Mahāvīra: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All vegetable also. Mahāvīra: All vegetable, all purīs . Prabhupāda: That's nice. ( japa ) (break) . . . Hindi book or English book? Mahāvīra: Hmm? Prabhupāda: You sold English book or Hindi book? Mahāvīra: Hindi magazine. Prabhupāda: Magazine only. Mahāvīra: Yes, everyone took magazines. Prabhupāda: Very good. Devotee: I think there were some other books also. I didn't check that. Prabhupāda: Something he must take. He will read, understand our philosophy. (break) . . . Carter is good. Saurabha: Yes. I got a letter from Dharmādhyakṣa up in Surat two months ago. He was invited to the White House after our . . . he had an exhibition at Vancouver, that Habitat. So it was a world conference of solution to life, living. So he was invited. He met some of the officials there. He was invited to Washington, but he had to wait for Carter to become the President, because then it would be fifty percent more favorable because they have a relationship. And there these people . . . they . . . he said there's a great chance they will help us in India. So he is going to go there and speak with the . . . Prabhupāda: In India. Saurabha: No, Washington, D.C. That's in America. They invited one of our devotees there to discuss this Māyāpur and all this social type of . . . Pradyumna: Dharmādhyakṣa. Saurabha: Dharmādhyakṣa. He's writing for that Back to Godhead magazine. He worked with Gurudāsa together. Prabhupāda: His article, one is there? Hari-śauri: Yes, "Simple Living, High Thinking." You saw that. Prabhupāda: So he met him. Saurabha: He met . . . not Carter. He met the government officials who were representing the United States Government at that exhibition, and they were very favorable. They were one of the most favorable, he said, the United States. Prabhupāda: Yes, our "Plain living, high thinking" is very nice idea. Hari-śauri: Actually, it's the only practical solution. Jagadīśa: Mr. Carter is a farmer, peanut farmer. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jagadīśa: That's how he gained his money. Saurabha: He's the biggest peanut farmer in America. (laughs) Pradyumna: He started out in the military. He was in the Navy. Then afterwards . . . his father had a peanut farm, and then his father became sick, so then he gave up his Navy thing. He came back to take care of the family. Then he began that peanut business. Now he doesn't have to do it any more because now he has made millions. I think he's very . . . he is wealthy man, very wealthy. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . capture American government. Then all world will follow. As they are known as Communist, we should be known as Hare Kṛṣṇas. We are already known as such, Hare Kṛṣṇas. Keep that name. People at least chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jagadīśa: Hare Kṛṣṇa Party. Prabhupāda: This is already well advertised all over the world. So keep this name, Hare Kṛṣṇas. "Vote for Hare Kṛṣṇas." Anywhere you live, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (yawns) All right, you can go. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . education, devotion, activities. Who can take more care than the father and the mother? So you combine together, make a batch of good character, ideal character in the whole world. There is no ideal character. Everyone is drunkard and meat*-eater or woman-hunter. What is the civilization? Hog civilization. (break) . . . civilization. Work hard, get some money, and spend it for intoxication, illicit sex. This is civilization. Is it not? They have no idea how to make civilized. Mahāvīra: I was hearing that before I left England there was some trouble in Scotland over the rules about the bars and drinking. And now they want to make a rule, a law, that the children can be allowed into the bars under their parents' . . . they make it a big social . . . Prabhupāda: They allow the children sit down. They take soda water, and the father, mother drinking. I have seen it. They are learning from the father and mother from the begin . . . Hari-śauri: My father used to . . . every Sunday they used to go to the pub, and then for Sunday afternoon, as a special treat, they would all get . . . we'd be given a glass of beer. Prabhupāda: Just see. Father, mother take . . . because they think it is civilization. Elderly boys, the father, mother tell, "What is the wrong, illicit sex? Take woman, take car. Enjoy life." I have seen it. They know, "This is life. Why . . .?" Therefore they say: "Brainwash. This Swāmījī is controlling their minds and brainwash." That is their charge. (pause) Prabhupāda: Wash, ne. The brain should be operated, surgical, to take out all the rubbish things from the . . . it is called membrane? Pradyumna: Cerebrum? Prabhupāda: Cereb? Hari-śauri: Cerebral. Prabhupāda: Cere . . . not . . . it is all gobar . Take out. (pause) Prabhupāda: (referring to prasādam distribution) Ne , make khicuṛi . Mahāvīra: Puṣpānna rice? Prabhupāda: Little, little. Mahāvīra: Always keep it simple: purīs , one, and one other thing? Prabhupāda: No, one kind. Either purī or puṣpānna or khicuṛi , like that. You cannot make. Mahāvīra: Tonight I made sabjī and purī . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is easiest, purī and sabjī Similarly, khicuṛi and sabjī , puṣpānna and chutney, like that. Temple means feeding them with prasādam . In Bombay the Sunday Feast going on? Saurabha: We don't have so much facility to feed them, because there's only the temple floor, so there's always a big crowd and we have to do two shifts. So sometimes . . . Prabhupāda: When it will be complete, more facility. Saurabha: Oh, yes, then it will be . . . everything . . . *Prabhupāda: Take prasādam , see drama, read books, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās . And if you like, you can live with us. So where is the difficulty? Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā (BS 5.37). (pause) Prabhupāda: That American politician has predicted that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, within ten years, they will capture our government." (laughs) So do it actually. (laughter) Then it will be very nice. It is not . . . simply take the people in your favor—the government is yours. That they are afraid of. The young boys, they are taking Hare Kṛṣṇa movement seriously, so the government can be changed in their favor. After all, it is democracy, you can do it. You become president; you'll become senator. In America it is possible. And if America accepts . . . what about this new president? Or . . . formerly I heard about him that he is religious man. Saurabha: His mother is . . . she was working in India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Saurabha: So she's very favorable towards India. She was some type of social worker in India. Prabhupāda: His mother? Oh. Then at least he has got some good thinking. *Saurabha: They said . . . there's a movie star in Bombay, and he is . . . he's a friend of this Carter. So Jagat*-puruṣa is going to approach him. He's a very good friend of . . . because his mother, she was working in India and she knew this family. So they have a lot of friends in India. Prabhupāda: At least let them understand the philosophy. Balavanta may see and explain the philosophy. Jagadīśa: Balavanta knows him. Pradyumna: Did Balavanta meet him? Jagadīśa: I think so. Balavanta's . . . there was one man, a black man who was running for mayor at the same time that Balavanta was, for Atlanta. And that black man dropped out of the race and supported Balavanta. Prabhupāda: He's a black man. Jagadīśa: Yes. Then later on, that man, he was appointed Lieutenant Governor under Carter. So Carter and this man are close, and through this man, Carter knows about Balavanta and the movement. Prabhupāda: You have written one letter? Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Balavanta is very intelligent boy. He can do that. (pause) Prabhupāda: Bring that spring water, little. You can type this? Jagadīśa: On your letterhead? Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one of the students is just about fifteen, and he's been initiated now for a year, and I'd like to recommend him for second initiation. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . good hope for preaching in China. I have received letter from Trivikrama Mahārāja. What she is doing, Carter's mother, here? He's in India? Jagadīśa: Not anymore. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jagadīśa: She must have been a missionary. Hari-śauri: Part of the Peace Corps or something? Jagadīśa: Oh, that's it. She worked with the Peace Corps. Prabhupāda: Peace port? Jagadīśa: Peace Corps. Prabhupāda: What is that? Jagadīśa: That's an American organization. It sends out people all over the world to help the . . . Hari-śauri: Like a social workers' organization. Mahāvīra: Like when they have earthquakes and hurricanes in countries, the Peace Corps will go there, and they will do all the nursing and doctoring and helping people get homes . . . Prabhupāda: So unless there is earthquake, they will not work. Jagadīśa: No, that's not the Peace Corps. Pradyumna: They send Peace Corps . . . Tejiyas was in Peace Corps. Tejiyas was in the Peace Corps. He was sent to India. In Telengana he was helping with agriculture. He would go to some village, underdeveloped. He would teach them how to plant nicely, fertilize, different things. Hari-śauri: He knows about that? Pradyumna: Yes, he knows all about agriculture. Hari-śauri: Why don't we send him to Hyderabad? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: He worked there for about . . . Prabhupāda: Let him go to Hyderabad. Pradyumna: He knows all about agriculture. Prabhupāda: Mm. Hari-śauri: And he speaks the language, too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: It was Kennedy's idea, the Peace Corps. Kennedy started it. They started it because many young men did not want to go in the Army, but Army was forcible. So they said: "If you go in the Peace Corps, then you don't have to go in the war corps—you don't have to go in Army." So many people took that, "Oh, we'll go in the Peace Corps. We'll go as an alternative." Prabhupāda: Good idea. Saurabha: It has lost its popularity now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Saurabha: It is not very popular now. Prabhupāda: Why? Saurabha: In fact, in India they have ordered to leave, practically. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Saurabha: They say they had some connection with the CIA. Prabhupāda: That is politics. Saurabha: Yes, but . . . *Prabhupāda: He was a politician. That you cannot blame. Politics require all these things. A politician cannot be a saintly person. That is not possible. For politics he has to do so many things. That is necessary. Just like Arjuna wanted to be a nonviolent. Immediately it was condemned by Kṛṣṇa, "What is this nonsense? You are a military man. Nonviolent?" And similarly, politician, they require all this. Businessman must deal in black market. It is inevitable. Otherwise he cannot improve. Because the world is bad, you, if you become honest, then you cannot make pros . . . cannot become prosperous. Sate sārtham samācaret. Brāhmaṇa's dealing must be very straight and honest. They are not meant for politics or business. They are for transcendental knowledge. Kṛṣṇa conscious person should be all*-inclusive. He must be a politician, he must be a Brahmin , he must be a kṣatriya , he must be a śūdra —everything, all-inclusive. Because he is transcendental. In otherwise, he is neither a Brahmin , neither a śūdra , neither a . . . yes. Nāhaṁ vipro na ca nara-patir na yatir vā (Padyāvalī 63). Neither of these. In other side he is everything. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. As Kṛṣṇa is sometimes cowherd boy, politician, sometimes dancing with, artist—He is everything, not one-sided. (pause) Prabhupāda: So all food is finished? Mahāvīra: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All vegetable also. Mahāvīra: All vegetable, all purīs . Prabhupāda: That's nice. ( japa ) (break) . . . Hindi book or English book? Mahāvīra: Hmm? Prabhupāda: You sold English book or Hindi book? Mahāvīra: Hindi magazine. Prabhupāda: Magazine only. Mahāvīra: Yes, everyone took magazines. Prabhupāda: Very good. Devotee: I think there were some other books also. I didn't check that. Prabhupāda: Something he must take. He will read, understand our philosophy. (break) . . . Carter is good. Saurabha: Yes. I got a letter from Dharmādhyakṣa up in Surat two months ago. He was invited to the White House after our . . . he had an exhibition at Vancouver, that Habitat. So it was a world conference of solution to life, living. So he was invited. He met some of the officials there. He was invited to Washington, but he had to wait for Carter to become the President, because then it would be fifty percent more favorable because they have a relationship. And there these people . . . they . . . he said there's a great chance they will help us in India. So he is going to go there and speak with the . . . Prabhupāda: In India. Saurabha: No, Washington, D.C. That's in America. They invited one of our devotees there to discuss this Māyāpur and all this social type of . . . Pradyumna: Dharmādhyakṣa. Saurabha: Dharmādhyakṣa. He's writing for that Back to Godhead magazine. He worked with Gurudāsa together. Prabhupāda: His article, one is there? Hari-śauri: Yes, "Simple Living, High Thinking." You saw that. Prabhupāda: So he met him. Saurabha: He met . . . not Carter. He met the government officials who were representing the United States Government at that exhibition, and they were very favorable. They were one of the most favorable, he said, the United States. Prabhupāda: Yes, our "Plain living, high thinking" is very nice idea. Hari-śauri: Actually, it's the only practical solution. Jagadīśa: Mr. Carter is a farmer, peanut farmer. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jagadīśa: That's how he gained his money. Saurabha: He's the biggest peanut farmer in America. (laughs) Pradyumna: He started out in the military. He was in the Navy. Then afterwards . . . his father had a peanut farm, and then his father became sick, so then he gave up his Navy thing. He came back to take care of the family. Then he began that peanut business. Now he doesn't have to do it any more because now he has made millions. I think he's very . . . he is wealthy man, very wealthy. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . capture American government. Then all world will follow. As they are known as Communist, we should be known as Hare Kṛṣṇas. We are already known as such, Hare Kṛṣṇas. Keep that name. People at least chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jagadīśa: Hare Kṛṣṇa Party. Prabhupāda: This is already well advertised all over the world. So keep this name, Hare Kṛṣṇas. "Vote for Hare Kṛṣṇas." Anywhere you live, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (yawns) All right, you can go. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Tejiyas: M. Channa Reddy. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tejiyas: M. Channa Reddy. Prabhupāda: Why? Tejiyas: About getting letters, this letter for the court case in America. Prabhupāda: Court case? Oh. Tejiyas: He had given us nice questioning, and some from our Members, who are members of Parliament and other persons like M. Channa Reddy himself. He said that he would approach the External Affairs Minister and ask him that . . . the External Affairs Minister, he can make some sort of protest, either official or unofficial, about this type of dealings that are going on. Prabhupāda: So he has not given anything, writing. Tejiyas: No, but what he said . . . he said that he is the head of the state of U.P . . . so he said if he gives a protest to the American government directly, that "This is not . . ." Prabhupāda: There is no question of protest that . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine movement. Tejiyas: I had gotten a letter from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa that he also wanted some letter in the form of protest. Prabhupāda: Protest? Why this nonsense suggestion is done? These are rascal things. You have no experience, and you do something which is . . . Tejiyas: I asked the governor to give a letter of . . . Prabhupāda: Why did you approach the governor without asking me? You cannot make the governor so cheap thing that you will go always and ask something. Unnecessarily spend money and waste time. Tejiyas: I met him in Delhi. Prabhupāda: He was there? Tejiyas: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But how governor can protest? Tejiyas: What he suggested in this case . . . *Prabhupāda: He will suggest hundreds of things, but he cannot protest personally. That is not . . . what is the court case? That we have to place before the court, that "This is genuine cultural or religious movement." We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we are trying to spread. This is genuine, the simple thing. We have not manufactured anything, Transcendental Meditation or like that. That is not our business. We are presenting simply what is stated there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If somebody said that "Bible is not genuine," will it be accepted? Thousands and thousands are claiming to be Christian on the basis of . . . similarly, millions and millions of people in India, they know Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā . How it is not genuine? That we have to prove, that's all. It's not that . . . repeatedly we are speaking that what Kṛṣṇa has said, that is perfect. That's all. This is our business. Who will object to that? You could not present to the governor that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . anyone can say, "Yes, it is based on Bhagavad-gītā . It is genuine." Any Indian can say. You have to take that to present in the court. If from official it is . . . how the official can deny it? It is genuine. Now, about this sewer line, after all . . . (end) Tejiyas: M. Channa Reddy. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tejiyas: M. Channa Reddy. Prabhupāda: Why? Tejiyas: About getting letters, this letter for the court case in America. Prabhupāda: Court case? Oh. Tejiyas: He had given us nice questioning, and some from our Members, who are members of Parliament and other persons like M. Channa Reddy himself. He said that he would approach the External Affairs Minister and ask him that . . . the External Affairs Minister, he can make some sort of protest, either official or unofficial, about this type of dealings that are going on. Prabhupāda: So he has not given anything, writing. Tejiyas: No, but what he said . . . he said that he is the head of the state of U.P . . . so he said if he gives a protest to the American government directly, that "This is not . . ." Prabhupāda: There is no question of protest that . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine movement. Tejiyas: I had gotten a letter from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa that he also wanted some letter in the form of protest. Prabhupāda: Protest? Why this nonsense suggestion is done? These are rascal things. You have no experience, and you do something which is . . . Tejiyas: I asked the governor to give a letter of . . . Prabhupāda: Why did you approach the governor without asking me? You cannot make the governor so cheap thing that you will go always and ask something. Unnecessarily spend money and waste time. Tejiyas: I met him in Delhi. Prabhupāda: He was there? Tejiyas: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But how governor can protest? Tejiyas: What he suggested in this case . . . *Prabhupāda: He will suggest hundreds of things, but he cannot protest personally. That is not . . . what is the court case? That we have to place before the court, that "This is genuine cultural or religious movement." We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we are trying to spread. This is genuine, the simple thing. We have not manufactured anything, Transcendental Meditation or like that. That is not our business. We are presenting simply what is stated there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If somebody said that "Bible is not genuine," will it be accepted? Thousands and thousands are claiming to be Christian on the basis of . . . similarly, millions and millions of people in India, they know Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā . How it is not genuine? That we have to prove, that's all. It's not that . . . repeatedly we are speaking that what Kṛṣṇa has said, that is perfect. That's all. This is our business. Who will object to that? You could not present to the governor that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . anyone can say, "Yes, it is based on Bhagavad-gītā . It is genuine." Any Indian can say. You have to take that to present in the court. If from official it is . . . how the official can deny it? It is genuine. Now, about this sewer line, after all . . . (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . punishment, Kali*-yuga. But this is proper punishment. Because the public also, they’re not anxious to become God conscious. Hari Śauri: No. They’re anxious to avoid it. There's a few, but not many. Prabhupāda: So they must be punished, with such rogues and thieves. That is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* . It is nature's punishment. (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . punishment, Kali*-yuga. But this is proper punishment. Because the public also, they’re not anxious to become God conscious. Hari Śauri: No. They’re anxious to avoid it. There's a few, but not many. Prabhupāda: So they must be punished, with such rogues and thieves. That is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* . It is nature's punishment. (end) Prabhupāda: And this paper should be carried to Pradyumna. (break) . . . predicted it? They are not going to do all this protest against Transcendental Meditation. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: That means here they are feeling the weight. You see? These protests, this combination, this endeavor to collapse our . . . that means they are feeling more weight. And what is this movement, Transcendent . . .? They never formed against any case, anything, Transcendental . . . they know that is farce. There are so many other groups: Yogi Bhajan, Transcendental Meditation and . . . what is he? Guru baba . . .? Hari-śauri: Guru Maharaji. Prabhupāda: Guru Maharaja. So many. Ramakrishna is not very prominent. Sai Baba. (aside) Little, little, everyone. Who asked for them? Aurobindo. Even Aurobindo. Who will protest against Aurobindo? Aurobindo has got some influence in the Western . . . Jagadīśa: Not so much. Hari-śauri: I never heard of him before. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: (laughs) I never heard of Aurobindo. If someone is interested in Eastern philosophy, generally they read books about Aurobindo and stuff like that, because up till now that's been the only literature that's been available in the West. Prabhupāda: Aurobindo? Hari-śauri: Yes. People like that. Prabhupāda: And now it is worthless. Hari-śauri: Now it's finished. Jagadīśa: There's one other movement, called the Moonies. Prabhupāda: Moonies. Jagadīśa: Moonies. That's been founded by Reverend Sun Myung Moon. Hari-śauri: That Korean man, that Korean businessman. Prabhupāda: Oh. But that is also not . . . Hari-śauri: They're big in the States. They're very big in the States. Jagadīśa: He wants to take over the world. He publicly says so. He claims to be organizing the world . . . Prabhupāda: That . . . (break) Hari-śauri: He says that Jesus never carried out what he intended to do . . . Prabhupāda: "I am doing." Hari-śauri: So he's going to come and do it. Prabhupāda: So that is capturing the sentiment. There is no philosophy. And who cares for Jesus? First of all they must care for Jesus. So he's . . . he has got any books? Jagadīśa: I don't think so. Maybe some pamphlets. Hari-śauri: No one's got any literature like yours. At the most, they can produce a few pamphlets. They can't even produce one volume the size of the Bhāgavatam , what to speak of eighty. And if they could, no one would read them anyway. Prabhupāda: No, on the whole there is now attempt to stop this movement. *(break) . . . but in . . . we have made so many court cases. Now, only loss we are feeling now—in some airports they have stopped our book*-selling. So formerly also they were stopped and again revived. Hari-śauri: Legally we haven't been stopped in any airport, I don't think. Prabhupāda: Legally we have been stopped? Jagadīśa: In Los Angeles, in Dallas and Atlanta. Prabhupāda: Legally? Hari-śauri: But that's only temporarily, I think. Prabhupāda: What is the . . .? Jagadīśa: It's a constant struggle. Prabhupāda: Struggle must be there. You cannot stop it. Jagadīśa: In Montreal for about two years . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa since His birth struggled. (laughs) Jagadīśa: We had harassment from the police in Montreal for two years. Sometimes they even beat up the devotees. They have put them into jail . . . Prabhupāda: They have beaten even our book sellers in airports. Hari-śauri: Chicago. Jagadīśa: And the police mistreat the devotees. But still, the devotees continue, and now in Montreal there's no trouble. Prabhupāda: They crucified Jesus, what to speak of devotees. Prahlāda Mahārāja was persecuted. Haridāsa Ṭhākura. I think I shall not go to Europe, America, for some time. (laughter) Hari-śauri: Not unless this gets cleared up. Prabhupāda: Because it is being discussed about me. They say: "Old man is behind this movement." Hari-śauri: Even in Australia now they're having the same thing, kidnapping and everything. It's everywhere. Prabhupāda: That means they're feeling the weight. It is spreading. Hari-śauri: Yeah. (pause) Prabhupāda: That's all. (end) Prabhupāda: And this paper should be carried to Pradyumna. (break) . . . predicted it? They are not going to do all this protest against Transcendental Meditation. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: That means here they are feeling the weight. You see? These protests, this combination, this endeavor to collapse our . . . that means they are feeling more weight. And what is this movement, Transcendent . . .? They never formed against any case, anything, Transcendental . . . they know that is farce. There are so many other groups: Yogi Bhajan, Transcendental Meditation and . . . what is he? Guru baba . . .? Hari-śauri: Guru Maharaji. Prabhupāda: Guru Maharaja. So many. Ramakrishna is not very prominent. Sai Baba. (aside) Little, little, everyone. Who asked for them? Aurobindo. Even Aurobindo. Who will protest against Aurobindo? Aurobindo has got some influence in the Western . . . Jagadīśa: Not so much. Hari-śauri: I never heard of him before. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: (laughs) I never heard of Aurobindo. If someone is interested in Eastern philosophy, generally they read books about Aurobindo and stuff like that, because up till now that's been the only literature that's been available in the West. Prabhupāda: Aurobindo? Hari-śauri: Yes. People like that. Prabhupāda: And now it is worthless. Hari-śauri: Now it's finished. Jagadīśa: There's one other movement, called the Moonies. Prabhupāda: Moonies. Jagadīśa: Moonies. That's been founded by Reverend Sun Myung Moon. Hari-śauri: That Korean man, that Korean businessman. Prabhupāda: Oh. But that is also not . . . Hari-śauri: They're big in the States. They're very big in the States. Jagadīśa: He wants to take over the world. He publicly says so. He claims to be organizing the world . . . Prabhupāda: That . . . (break) Hari-śauri: He says that Jesus never carried out what he intended to do . . . Prabhupāda: "I am doing." Hari-śauri: So he's going to come and do it. Prabhupāda: So that is capturing the sentiment. There is no philosophy. And who cares for Jesus? First of all they must care for Jesus. So he's . . . he has got any books? Jagadīśa: I don't think so. Maybe some pamphlets. Hari-śauri: No one's got any literature like yours. At the most, they can produce a few pamphlets. They can't even produce one volume the size of the Bhāgavatam , what to speak of eighty. And if they could, no one would read them anyway. Prabhupāda: No, on the whole there is now attempt to stop this movement. *(break) . . . but in . . . we have made so many court cases. Now, only loss we are feeling now—in some airports they have stopped our book*-selling. So formerly also they were stopped and again revived. Hari-śauri: Legally we haven't been stopped in any airport, I don't think. Prabhupāda: Legally we have been stopped? Jagadīśa: In Los Angeles, in Dallas and Atlanta. Prabhupāda: Legally? Hari-śauri: But that's only temporarily, I think. Prabhupāda: What is the . . .? Jagadīśa: It's a constant struggle. Prabhupāda: Struggle must be there. You cannot stop it. Jagadīśa: In Montreal for about two years . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa since His birth struggled. (laughs) Jagadīśa: We had harassment from the police in Montreal for two years. Sometimes they even beat up the devotees. They have put them into jail . . . Prabhupāda: They have beaten even our book sellers in airports. Hari-śauri: Chicago. Jagadīśa: And the police mistreat the devotees. But still, the devotees continue, and now in Montreal there's no trouble. Prabhupāda: They crucified Jesus, what to speak of devotees. Prahlāda Mahārāja was persecuted. Haridāsa Ṭhākura. I think I shall not go to Europe, America, for some time. (laughter) Hari-śauri: Not unless this gets cleared up. Prabhupāda: Because it is being discussed about me. They say: "Old man is behind this movement." Hari-śauri: Even in Australia now they're having the same thing, kidnapping and everything. It's everywhere. Prabhupāda: That means they're feeling the weight. It is spreading. Hari-śauri: Yeah. (pause) Prabhupāda: That's all. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . (Sanskrit) Who is coming back again, the body this time, that's all. (pause) Akṣayānanda: Kṛṣṇa will also increase? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: The ability to remember Kṛṣṇa, that will also increase? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, if the brain is clear—it is not filled up with rubbish cow dung—then Kṛṣṇa consciousness easy. Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means there is no more material consciousness. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktam ( CC Madhya 19.170). Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). That is required. And material existence we have got so many ambitions, thoughts, obligations—so many things. Bṛthā . *Sarva*-dharmān : everything give up. That is India's Vedic civilization. They are not concerned with the material advancement. Simple life. That's all. And our present leaders, they are thinking that, "Brainwashed." They are not deeply thinking, "Why our great sages and ācāryas recommended this life, not the skyscraper life? Why? They were not less intelligent." They are not thinking in that way. They are thinking that, "Because we neglected the skyscraper thoughts, we are so backward." At least this rascal Nehru was thinking like that, "So finish this." The Russia is . . . what is called? Opiate? Akṣayānanda: Opiate of the people. *Prabhupāda: Brainwashed. These things are accepted like that, "It has no value, simply some prejudice and superstition, and they are thinking like that, and they are spoiling their material side of life." This is their idea. "What is this? No meat*-eating?" (knock on the door as devotee enters with prasādam ) That little dāl, dāliya, bās. Pālikā: Nothing else? Prabhupāda: Huh? Pālikā: Nothing else? *Prabhupāda: No. If I take anything else it becomes overburdened. Better take little less, just to satisfy that I am not starving. (laughter) Better to starve. That is better. But we are habituated, so better give some consolance, "No, no, you are not starving." Otherwise, starving is better. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . (pause) Prabhupāda: So they were glad that I am coming? Akṣayānanda: Oh, yes. He was happy. And she was also happy. Prabhupāda: Who? Akṣayānanda: Gosāi Mā. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, she was very kind upon me. Akṣayānanda: Yes, they were very happy. *Hari-śauri: How long is it since you've been to the Rādhā*-Dāmodara? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: When did you last go? Prabhupāda: Last? Maybe 1972. *Hari-śauri: About four years. What about that Keśī*-ghāṭa? Akṣayānanda: I didn't have time to find out. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Hari-śauri: Whereabouts, exactly, is that place at Keśī*-ghāṭa? Prabhupāda: Oh. (chuckles) We can go some day. Akṣayānanda: I think I met somebody from there. Prabhupāda: Oh, his daughter came there. Akṣayānanda: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Daughter or granddaughter. Akṣayānanda: Something like that, yes. He was talking about. *Prabhupāda: When I first came in Vṛndāvana I stayed in the Keśī*-ghāṭa. That is very palatial building. My room was as big as this. Yes, as big. Plus one side room, plus one entrance room. I was paying fifteen rupees. And I could see whole Vṛndāvana, Yamunā, from the top my house. It was very nice, very palatial. Hari-śauri: That's in the big building on the . . . right on the side of the ghāṭa ? Prabhupāda: Which gate? *Hari-śauri: That's in the big building right on the side of Keśī*-ghāṭa? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: No? Prabhupāda: No. There is a big building, Bharat Maharaja, yes, Bharatpur, just by the side of that house. It is in the corner. The door is in the corner. The road is going this way in the corner. It is stone. Face is stone. Good building, but . . . (break) . . . in thought of Kṛṣṇa, outside cleaning by oil and soap. Soap. Bāhyābhyantara-śuciḥ . This is quite comfortable, not very chilly, within this room. Hari-śauri: Yes, this retains the heat nicely. *Prabhupāda: People are so misled. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to change this body. There is no preparation. "As sure as death." Death will take place, and you have to accept another body. Who understands this philosophy? Nobody. They are so dull-headed. This body finished, everything finished. Bās . All big, big leaders, scholars, they say. One gentleman, his name is . . . he was Rabindranath Tagore's brother, artist. So in a meeting he was saying: "We are so fool. Thinking of next life, next life, we are spoiling this life." He said like that, long ago when we were children, young men, about eighteen years, twenty years. So I remember distinctly, he is saying in the meeting that, "Simply thinking of next life, we are spoiling this life." He said. That was his explanation. So at that time we were young boys, "Yes, why we should think of, so much of next life?" Of course, I was not very much convinced, but naturally . . . I think his name Aurobindo Tagore, like that. Rabindranath Tagore. He is good artist. Artist means latest fashion: like this, like that, like that. He was considered to be latest artist. And his view is that. I talked with Professor Kotovsky. He said: "Swāmījī, after finishing this body everything is finished." Communist. This is the cent per cent idea. The so-called scientists, they are thinking by chemical evolution the body has come in existence. These things are discussed in Bhagavad-gītā . By accident, if it is a combination of chemicals, that means the bodily existence was not before. It has come in by accident, combination. "So why, Arjuna, you are lamenting for the body which was not in existence, and it will not exist after? So why you are so much anxious for the middle portion?" Good reasoning. The body was not in existence. That is the general . . . and as soon as you finish, there is no more existence. So via media, between the manifestation and nonmanifestation, in the middle there is some manifesta . . . why you are so much absorbed in that part? Therefore the Europeans, Americans, they bring in the charges "brainwash." "A brainwash movement. It has no actual value. Simply an artificial way of pushing the idea in the brain. And they have to give up. These children are spoiled. They have given up meat-eating and illicit sex. Their life is spoiled," and so on, so on. *So their theory is not without background. There is a background philosophy. And for Western countries, this is a completely new idea. Therefore they are charging "Brainwash." They are not to be blamed, because they are, I mean to say, raised in that ideas. Hmm? Is it not? Yes. "So this is simply brainwash movement. It has no factual standing." Even our country, what to speak of Western countries. Where the spiritual civilization has a strong background, they are also not believing. Nobody believes Kṛṣṇa is God, even big, big leaders, what to speak of ordinary men. Especially the so*-called educated men. "Bring money anyhow and enjoy life." Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). And for money they are doing everything: black money, white money, yellow money, this money. (laughs) "Bring money and enjoy. Bās . This is life. Why this nonsense Kṛṣṇa consciousness? No this, no this, no this. Ninety-nine percent 'no' and one percent 'yes.' What is the value of this movement?" Is it not? Our life is ninety-nine per cent "no." No air even. (laughs) (laughter) So what to speak of other thing. It is very difficult. Therefore in the beginning I was hopeless, that "Who will hear this movement? Simply 'no.' " And especially in this country, in Europe. So dull brain. Hmm. (break) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . (Sanskrit) Who is coming back again, the body this time, that's all. (pause) Akṣayānanda: Kṛṣṇa will also increase? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: The ability to remember Kṛṣṇa, that will also increase? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, if the brain is clear—it is not filled up with rubbish cow dung—then Kṛṣṇa consciousness easy. Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means there is no more material consciousness. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktam ( CC Madhya 19.170). Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). That is required. And material existence we have got so many ambitions, thoughts, obligations—so many things. Bṛthā . *Sarva*-dharmān : everything give up. That is India's Vedic civilization. They are not concerned with the material advancement. Simple life. That's all. And our present leaders, they are thinking that, "Brainwashed." They are not deeply thinking, "Why our great sages and ācāryas recommended this life, not the skyscraper life? Why? They were not less intelligent." They are not thinking in that way. They are thinking that, "Because we neglected the skyscraper thoughts, we are so backward." At least this rascal Nehru was thinking like that, "So finish this." The Russia is . . . what is called? Opiate? Akṣayānanda: Opiate of the people. *Prabhupāda: Brainwashed. These things are accepted like that, "It has no value, simply some prejudice and superstition, and they are thinking like that, and they are spoiling their material side of life." This is their idea. "What is this? No meat*-eating?" (knock on the door as devotee enters with prasādam ) That little dāl, dāliya, bās. Pālikā: Nothing else? Prabhupāda: Huh? Pālikā: Nothing else? *Prabhupāda: No. If I take anything else it becomes overburdened. Better take little less, just to satisfy that I am not starving. (laughter) Better to starve. That is better. But we are habituated, so better give some consolance, "No, no, you are not starving." Otherwise, starving is better. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . (pause) Prabhupāda: So they were glad that I am coming? Akṣayānanda: Oh, yes. He was happy. And she was also happy. Prabhupāda: Who? Akṣayānanda: Gosāi Mā. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, she was very kind upon me. Akṣayānanda: Yes, they were very happy. *Hari-śauri: How long is it since you've been to the Rādhā*-Dāmodara? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: When did you last go? Prabhupāda: Last? Maybe 1972. *Hari-śauri: About four years. What about that Keśī*-ghāṭa? Akṣayānanda: I didn't have time to find out. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Hari-śauri: Whereabouts, exactly, is that place at Keśī*-ghāṭa? Prabhupāda: Oh. (chuckles) We can go some day. Akṣayānanda: I think I met somebody from there. Prabhupāda: Oh, his daughter came there. Akṣayānanda: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Daughter or granddaughter. Akṣayānanda: Something like that, yes. He was talking about. *Prabhupāda: When I first came in Vṛndāvana I stayed in the Keśī*-ghāṭa. That is very palatial building. My room was as big as this. Yes, as big. Plus one side room, plus one entrance room. I was paying fifteen rupees. And I could see whole Vṛndāvana, Yamunā, from the top my house. It was very nice, very palatial. Hari-śauri: That's in the big building on the . . . right on the side of the ghāṭa ? Prabhupāda: Which gate? *Hari-śauri: That's in the big building right on the side of Keśī*-ghāṭa? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: No? Prabhupāda: No. There is a big building, Bharat Maharaja, yes, Bharatpur, just by the side of that house. It is in the corner. The door is in the corner. The road is going this way in the corner. It is stone. Face is stone. Good building, but . . . (break) . . . in thought of Kṛṣṇa, outside cleaning by oil and soap. Soap. Bāhyābhyantara-śuciḥ . This is quite comfortable, not very chilly, within this room. Hari-śauri: Yes, this retains the heat nicely. *Prabhupāda: People are so misled. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to change this body. There is no preparation. "As sure as death." Death will take place, and you have to accept another body. Who understands this philosophy? Nobody. They are so dull-headed. This body finished, everything finished. Bās . All big, big leaders, scholars, they say. One gentleman, his name is . . . he was Rabindranath Tagore's brother, artist. So in a meeting he was saying: "We are so fool. Thinking of next life, next life, we are spoiling this life." He said like that, long ago when we were children, young men, about eighteen years, twenty years. So I remember distinctly, he is saying in the meeting that, "Simply thinking of next life, we are spoiling this life." He said. That was his explanation. So at that time we were young boys, "Yes, why we should think of, so much of next life?" Of course, I was not very much convinced, but naturally . . . I think his name Aurobindo Tagore, like that. Rabindranath Tagore. He is good artist. Artist means latest fashion: like this, like that, like that. He was considered to be latest artist. And his view is that. I talked with Professor Kotovsky. He said: "Swāmījī, after finishing this body everything is finished." Communist. This is the cent per cent idea. The so-called scientists, they are thinking by chemical evolution the body has come in existence. These things are discussed in Bhagavad-gītā . By accident, if it is a combination of chemicals, that means the bodily existence was not before. It has come in by accident, combination. "So why, Arjuna, you are lamenting for the body which was not in existence, and it will not exist after? So why you are so much anxious for the middle portion?" Good reasoning. The body was not in existence. That is the general . . . and as soon as you finish, there is no more existence. So via media, between the manifestation and nonmanifestation, in the middle there is some manifesta . . . why you are so much absorbed in that part? Therefore the Europeans, Americans, they bring in the charges "brainwash." "A brainwash movement. It has no actual value. Simply an artificial way of pushing the idea in the brain. And they have to give up. These children are spoiled. They have given up meat-eating and illicit sex. Their life is spoiled," and so on, so on. *So their theory is not without background. There is a background philosophy. And for Western countries, this is a completely new idea. Therefore they are charging "Brainwash." They are not to be blamed, because they are, I mean to say, raised in that ideas. Hmm? Is it not? Yes. "So this is simply brainwash movement. It has no factual standing." Even our country, what to speak of Western countries. Where the spiritual civilization has a strong background, they are also not believing. Nobody believes Kṛṣṇa is God, even big, big leaders, what to speak of ordinary men. Especially the so*-called educated men. "Bring money anyhow and enjoy life." Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). And for money they are doing everything: black money, white money, yellow money, this money. (laughs) "Bring money and enjoy. Bās . This is life. Why this nonsense Kṛṣṇa consciousness? No this, no this, no this. Ninety-nine percent 'no' and one percent 'yes.' What is the value of this movement?" Is it not? Our life is ninety-nine per cent "no." No air even. (laughs) (laughter) So what to speak of other thing. It is very difficult. Therefore in the beginning I was hopeless, that "Who will hear this movement? Simply 'no.' " And especially in this country, in Europe. So dull brain. Hmm. (break) (end) Mahāvīra: . . . Spanish and Portuguese word, Christo. Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa? Mahāvīra: Christo is also the Spanish and Portuguese word for Christ. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning? Mahāvīra: Christ. Prabhupāda: Christ. Just see. So write article on this. Mahāvīra: "Krishnian." Prabhupāda: Wherefrom this Christo came. The Greek word. And the Greek got from India, Kṛṣṇa . This is the history. Christian means Krishnian, godly. And Christo , so far I know, the Greek meaning is "decorated," "love." That indicates to Kṛṣṇa. If there is some scholar, he can find out that Christian means Krishnian originally. (reads from Mike Robinson interview in BTG ) "How the soul transmigrates? The process is very subtle. The spirit soul is invisible to our material eye. It is atomic in size. After the destruction of the gross body, which is made up of the senses, blood, bone, fat and so forth, the subtle body of mind, intelligence and ego goes on working. So at the time of death this subtle body carries the small spirit soul to another gross body. The process is just like air carrying a fragrance. Nobody can see where this rose fragrance is coming from, but we know that it is being carried by the air. You cannot see how, but it is being done. Similarly, the process of transmigration of the soul is very subtle. According to the conditions of the mind at the time of death, the minute spirit soul enters into the womb of a particular mother through the semina of father. And when the soul develops a particular type of body given by the mother, it may be a human being, it may be cat, a dog or anything." So it is brainwash? Hmm? Mahāvīra: But if it was heard by them, they would accept it, but because there are so many cheaters and rascals, that it's all been . . . they're so afraid of all of it, because there's been so much cheating and different philosophies and gurus and false gurus and that. Prabhupāda: Tumahare yahan sab hota hai. (Everything is done at your place.) . . . (indistinct) . . . now . . . Aiye. (Come). So far fix up, you should take paper. Who is in charge of which subject, I want to know. (devotees look for paper) Aap thoda sanksrit sikhiye na. (Why could you not learn a little Sanskrit.) That Prem Yogi can teach you very nice. And you and Prem Yogi can teach these boys Sanskrit. Mr. Saxena: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is not difficult at all. Anyone who knows Hindi, he knows half Sanskrit. Indian language, any Indian language, he knows half Sanskrit already. Half has to be completed. Because Indian language is directly from Sanskrit. So what are the charges you were working? Write each name and charge. Is there any charge to each man? Mahāvīra: Yes. Prabhupāda: So write that. (indistinct background conversations as devotees make notes) (pause) Prabhupāda: This article, if it is presented, the whole case, it is lost . . . Hari-śauri: Most of this magazine is . . . somehow or other, in all the articles there's something about how the chanting is actually producing greater intelligence, clearing the mind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Akṣayānanda: (making notes on who does what) Books and devotees. Prabhupāda: This issue is very important. There's so many evidences. (break) Who are present here . . . Akṣayānanda: Who are present here. Prabhupāda: . . . their charges, including their . . . write the names and the work in which department he's in charge. That I want to know. Mahāvīra: Would you also like to know the . . . 'cause some of them are not in charge of certain departments, but they work within a department. Prabhupāda: Oh. He is assistant. Mahāvīra: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then assistant name also the different, these departments. One man in charge, and he may have several assistants. That is different thing. (pause) Prabhupāda: Robinson could not protest any . . . in any of my statement. (laughs) He had to admit. Hari-śauri: Yeah. I told you he was very interested in the philosophy. He was asking some very good questions. Prabhupāda: Still he's asking, "Are you saying that we were something else before this life?" I said, "Yes." (laughter) (break) . . . issue will help 99% about this controversy, brainwashing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I haven't read it completely, but . . . Prabhupāda: And there are pictures of chanting. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's a very good . . . this editorial. Prabhupāda: This is new copy. So is it finished now? (break) Akṣayānanda: (giving indistinct devotee names) Practical. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Finished. So what is your charge? Hari-śauri: Your including . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Mahāvīra: Well, restaurant, shop, kitchen, the kitchen godown. Prabhupāda: Kitchen godown? Mahāvīra: Supplies. Prabhupāda: Oh, supplies. So what is the difficulty? The other day you complained some difficulty. So what is the difficulty? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Nothing. Nothing excepting my jaundice. Prabhupāda: Then? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Everything is all right. Prabhupāda: No, you said there is some difficulty. All of you came there on behalf . . . *Sarva*-bhāvana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is that difficulty? You are in charge of this department. That's right? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty in discharging your duty? Now you cannot say? What is that? All of you said there is difficulty. *Sarva*-bhāvana: It doesn't concern directly what we have as charges. Prabhupāda: So what is that difficulty? What is your difficulty? That I must know. *Sarva*-bhāvana: If some of the boys were to get along with the authorities . . . Prabhupāda: Loan? Hari-śauri: Along. Prabhupāda: Oh, along, authori . . . so that I want to discuss with authorities here. Our first authority is Akṣayānanda. So what is the difficulty you get along with? What is the difficulty? You must discuss. Otherwise how it can be resolved? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Personally interrogate with me . . . personally consulting me, I have had no difficulty so far. But there have been other . . . Prabhupāda: Who had difficulty? You came, so many. What is your difficulty? Now explain what you are in charge? *Indian devotee: I am the reception in*-charge. He is on the reception. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's the guesthouse receptionist, that's all, at the moment. Prabhupāda: Guesthouse reception? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is your difficulty with the authority? Indian devotee: Regarding this guesthouse, everything is okay, but things, little things, these equipments and . . . (indistinct) . . . all these things . . . Prabhupāda: Help to understand. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I am understanding. He is saying that everything is all right, but he needs equipment sometimes. So if they need equipment the procedure is that it has to be . . . Prabhupāda: Equipment? What is that equipment? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like plates or . . . Indian devotee: These bedding materials, and these mans for managing these . . . sweepers and all. We are running short of mans. Of course, we are trying to get short of man . . . Akṣayānanda: Short of men. Cleaners. Indian devotee: Cleaners and these mans . . . Prabhupāda: You have got cleaners. Akṣayānanda: (indistinct) . . . coming. Prabhupāda: Eh? Akṣayānanda: Well, we had sufficient, but they are unreliable, paid men, so we're getting new men. But I don't think that's the difficulty with the management. Prabhupāda: So you solve this difficulty. You answer. He has got difficulty, you answer him. So he has got difficulty. Akṣayānanda: Difficulty is because we lost the chaukīdār . The cleaner had to become a chaukīdār but now you have a new chaukīdār , so your cleaner is back? Indian devotee: Yes, today he is working. Akṣayānanda: And other men are coming, is it not? Indian devotee: Ah, yes, coming. Prabhupāda: So is there difficulty now? Indian devotee: No, it is coming now. There are no difficulties. Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty, I do not find out. You told him, and that is already done. And you also said there is no difficulty, so why the other day you all came and there was difficulty? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Well, it was not my . . . directly my difficulty, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Sarva*-bhāvana: They have been small situations where other Indian devotees, closer to him, came to me with their problems. Prabhupāda: So all Indians are here. Now say what is the difficulty. *Sarva*-bhāvana: Well, some things like changing of our duties, changing of our services. Prabhupāda: So why you change? Consult. *Sarva*-bhāvana: Well, there won't be any change, Prabhupāda. And they were not satisfied with that change, so . . . and they wanted to remain in that particular service. Prabhupāda: Change is no rectification. If somebody is not working he should be trained up. Changing is another . . . if he is a fool, another fool will come. What will be? You see? Change, of course, sometimes required, but if you constantly change, the man is not trained up. That practice is not good. If somebody is not doing satisfactorily, then he should be trained up that "You should like this." And if you immediately change another, that, that is not actually solution because all our workers, they are not accustomed to certain type of duty. They are devotee, after all. So still, we have to do something, so one man requires little training. But whatever capacity he has got, he is posted. So immediate change, that is not very good management. Let him be reformed, and whatever inability he has got, he should be instructed and he should be . . . and this, all of a sudden change, simply go on changing, nobody . . . "Rolling stone never gathers moss." A "rolling stone" policy is not good. So what is the difficulty? Keep the stone in a place and it will gather moss. And if you simply roll, it will never gather moss. If the man who has committed mistake, he should be reformed. He should be instructed. Sometimes I show your cleaners by myself, "Do like this." Change them, immediate change, that is not good management, and to make him competent in that way, that is management. So this policy should be followed, not that because he has done something not correctly he should be changed immediately. That will not help. Now discuss this point. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually we can solve it ourselves. I don't know why they came to you in the first place, because our whole business is to relieve you of all problems. Prabhupāda: Yes but . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not think that if we are Indians we can have a special access to you. Prabhupāda: So do, do it. What is that? Ta . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we can do it outside instead of troubling you. I mean, we can sit down . . . actually, I've already told them since I've been here yesterday that whatever problems they have, we can solve it ourselves. Prabhupāda: So go and settle up in that lungi. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can settle it ourselves instead of bringing it to Prabhupāda. Jaya Srila Prabhupada. Akṣayānanda: I don't think there's any great difficulty, Prabhupāda. Mahāvīra: Actually, we've been speaking the last few days, and these problems can be solved. Prabhupāda: No, it is Kṛṣṇa's service. Everyone is offering voluntary service. So not that anyone is paid, and if he cannot, dismiss or . . . yes. This bureaucracy is not . . . train him. Train him. If he does not know, train him. But things must be done very nicely by cooperation. That is wanted. Everyone should remember that we are serving Kṛṣṇa, and everyone should remember, "The other person is serving Kṛṣṇa. And because he is serving Kṛṣṇa, he is not my servant; he is my master." That should be always in view. Therefore we address, " prabhu ": "You are my master." We never address, "You are my servant." We are trained up to say my brother, that " prabhu ," "such and such prabhu ." Prabhu means master. Nobody think himself that he is master. He should always think that everyone is his master because he's serving the master. This is our philosophy. So in this way . . . now you have got good arrangement and they're all intelligent persons, young persons. Akṣayānanda: All good people are here. Prabhupāda: So kindly settle up and do nice things. That I want to see. That's all. He is also present. At that time he was not present. So go and . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: You should always remember that you are helping me. Without your help I cannot do anything. So you do not be disturbed. Try to help me. That is my request. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupāda: Aap toh Hindi jaanti hai, thoda sanskrit sikh lijiye. (You already know Hindi, now learn Sanskrit well.) (end) Mahāvīra: . . . Spanish and Portuguese word, Christo. Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa? Mahāvīra: Christo is also the Spanish and Portuguese word for Christ. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning? Mahāvīra: Christ. Prabhupāda: Christ. Just see. So write article on this. Mahāvīra: "Krishnian." Prabhupāda: Wherefrom this Christo came. The Greek word. And the Greek got from India, Kṛṣṇa . This is the history. Christian means Krishnian, godly. And Christo , so far I know, the Greek meaning is "decorated," "love." That indicates to Kṛṣṇa. If there is some scholar, he can find out that Christian means Krishnian originally. (reads from Mike Robinson interview in BTG ) "How the soul transmigrates? The process is very subtle. The spirit soul is invisible to our material eye. It is atomic in size. After the destruction of the gross body, which is made up of the senses, blood, bone, fat and so forth, the subtle body of mind, intelligence and ego goes on working. So at the time of death this subtle body carries the small spirit soul to another gross body. The process is just like air carrying a fragrance. Nobody can see where this rose fragrance is coming from, but we know that it is being carried by the air. You cannot see how, but it is being done. Similarly, the process of transmigration of the soul is very subtle. According to the conditions of the mind at the time of death, the minute spirit soul enters into the womb of a particular mother through the semina of father. And when the soul develops a particular type of body given by the mother, it may be a human being, it may be cat, a dog or anything." So it is brainwash? Hmm? Mahāvīra: But if it was heard by them, they would accept it, but because there are so many cheaters and rascals, that it's all been . . . they're so afraid of all of it, because there's been so much cheating and different philosophies and gurus and false gurus and that. Prabhupāda: Tumahare yahan sab hota hai. (Everything is done at your place.) . . . (indistinct) . . . now . . . Aiye. (Come). So far fix up, you should take paper. Who is in charge of which subject, I want to know. (devotees look for paper) Aap thoda sanksrit sikhiye na. (Why could you not learn a little Sanskrit.) That Prem Yogi can teach you very nice. And you and Prem Yogi can teach these boys Sanskrit. Mr. Saxena: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is not difficult at all. Anyone who knows Hindi, he knows half Sanskrit. Indian language, any Indian language, he knows half Sanskrit already. Half has to be completed. Because Indian language is directly from Sanskrit. So what are the charges you were working? Write each name and charge. Is there any charge to each man? Mahāvīra: Yes. Prabhupāda: So write that. (indistinct background conversations as devotees make notes) (pause) Prabhupāda: This article, if it is presented, the whole case, it is lost . . . Hari-śauri: Most of this magazine is . . . somehow or other, in all the articles there's something about how the chanting is actually producing greater intelligence, clearing the mind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Akṣayānanda: (making notes on who does what) Books and devotees. Prabhupāda: This issue is very important. There's so many evidences. (break) Who are present here . . . Akṣayānanda: Who are present here. Prabhupāda: . . . their charges, including their . . . write the names and the work in which department he's in charge. That I want to know. Mahāvīra: Would you also like to know the . . . 'cause some of them are not in charge of certain departments, but they work within a department. Prabhupāda: Oh. He is assistant. Mahāvīra: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then assistant name also the different, these departments. One man in charge, and he may have several assistants. That is different thing. (pause) Prabhupāda: Robinson could not protest any . . . in any of my statement. (laughs) He had to admit. Hari-śauri: Yeah. I told you he was very interested in the philosophy. He was asking some very good questions. Prabhupāda: Still he's asking, "Are you saying that we were something else before this life?" I said, "Yes." (laughter) (break) . . . issue will help 99% about this controversy, brainwashing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I haven't read it completely, but . . . Prabhupāda: And there are pictures of chanting. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's a very good . . . this editorial. Prabhupāda: This is new copy. So is it finished now? (break) Akṣayānanda: (giving indistinct devotee names) Practical. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Finished. So what is your charge? Hari-śauri: Your including . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Mahāvīra: Well, restaurant, shop, kitchen, the kitchen godown. Prabhupāda: Kitchen godown? Mahāvīra: Supplies. Prabhupāda: Oh, supplies. So what is the difficulty? The other day you complained some difficulty. So what is the difficulty? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Nothing. Nothing excepting my jaundice. Prabhupāda: Then? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Everything is all right. Prabhupāda: No, you said there is some difficulty. All of you came there on behalf . . . *Sarva*-bhāvana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is that difficulty? You are in charge of this department. That's right? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty in discharging your duty? Now you cannot say? What is that? All of you said there is difficulty. *Sarva*-bhāvana: It doesn't concern directly what we have as charges. Prabhupāda: So what is that difficulty? What is your difficulty? That I must know. *Sarva*-bhāvana: If some of the boys were to get along with the authorities . . . Prabhupāda: Loan? Hari-śauri: Along. Prabhupāda: Oh, along, authori . . . so that I want to discuss with authorities here. Our first authority is Akṣayānanda. So what is the difficulty you get along with? What is the difficulty? You must discuss. Otherwise how it can be resolved? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Personally interrogate with me . . . personally consulting me, I have had no difficulty so far. But there have been other . . . Prabhupāda: Who had difficulty? You came, so many. What is your difficulty? Now explain what you are in charge? *Indian devotee: I am the reception in*-charge. He is on the reception. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's the guesthouse receptionist, that's all, at the moment. Prabhupāda: Guesthouse reception? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is your difficulty with the authority? Indian devotee: Regarding this guesthouse, everything is okay, but things, little things, these equipments and . . . (indistinct) . . . all these things . . . Prabhupāda: Help to understand. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I am understanding. He is saying that everything is all right, but he needs equipment sometimes. So if they need equipment the procedure is that it has to be . . . Prabhupāda: Equipment? What is that equipment? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like plates or . . . Indian devotee: These bedding materials, and these mans for managing these . . . sweepers and all. We are running short of mans. Of course, we are trying to get short of man . . . Akṣayānanda: Short of men. Cleaners. Indian devotee: Cleaners and these mans . . . Prabhupāda: You have got cleaners. Akṣayānanda: (indistinct) . . . coming. Prabhupāda: Eh? Akṣayānanda: Well, we had sufficient, but they are unreliable, paid men, so we're getting new men. But I don't think that's the difficulty with the management. Prabhupāda: So you solve this difficulty. You answer. He has got difficulty, you answer him. So he has got difficulty. Akṣayānanda: Difficulty is because we lost the chaukīdār . The cleaner had to become a chaukīdār but now you have a new chaukīdār , so your cleaner is back? Indian devotee: Yes, today he is working. Akṣayānanda: And other men are coming, is it not? Indian devotee: Ah, yes, coming. Prabhupāda: So is there difficulty now? Indian devotee: No, it is coming now. There are no difficulties. Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty, I do not find out. You told him, and that is already done. And you also said there is no difficulty, so why the other day you all came and there was difficulty? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Well, it was not my . . . directly my difficulty, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Sarva*-bhāvana: They have been small situations where other Indian devotees, closer to him, came to me with their problems. Prabhupāda: So all Indians are here. Now say what is the difficulty. *Sarva*-bhāvana: Well, some things like changing of our duties, changing of our services. Prabhupāda: So why you change? Consult. *Sarva*-bhāvana: Well, there won't be any change, Prabhupāda. And they were not satisfied with that change, so . . . and they wanted to remain in that particular service. Prabhupāda: Change is no rectification. If somebody is not working he should be trained up. Changing is another . . . if he is a fool, another fool will come. What will be? You see? Change, of course, sometimes required, but if you constantly change, the man is not trained up. That practice is not good. If somebody is not doing satisfactorily, then he should be trained up that "You should like this." And if you immediately change another, that, that is not actually solution because all our workers, they are not accustomed to certain type of duty. They are devotee, after all. So still, we have to do something, so one man requires little training. But whatever capacity he has got, he is posted. So immediate change, that is not very good management. Let him be reformed, and whatever inability he has got, he should be instructed and he should be . . . and this, all of a sudden change, simply go on changing, nobody . . . "Rolling stone never gathers moss." A "rolling stone" policy is not good. So what is the difficulty? Keep the stone in a place and it will gather moss. And if you simply roll, it will never gather moss. If the man who has committed mistake, he should be reformed. He should be instructed. Sometimes I show your cleaners by myself, "Do like this." Change them, immediate change, that is not good management, and to make him competent in that way, that is management. So this policy should be followed, not that because he has done something not correctly he should be changed immediately. That will not help. Now discuss this point. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually we can solve it ourselves. I don't know why they came to you in the first place, because our whole business is to relieve you of all problems. Prabhupāda: Yes but . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not think that if we are Indians we can have a special access to you. Prabhupāda: So do, do it. What is that? Ta . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we can do it outside instead of troubling you. I mean, we can sit down . . . actually, I've already told them since I've been here yesterday that whatever problems they have, we can solve it ourselves. Prabhupāda: So go and settle up in that lungi. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can settle it ourselves instead of bringing it to Prabhupāda. Jaya Srila Prabhupada. Akṣayānanda: I don't think there's any great difficulty, Prabhupāda. Mahāvīra: Actually, we've been speaking the last few days, and these problems can be solved. Prabhupāda: No, it is Kṛṣṇa's service. Everyone is offering voluntary service. So not that anyone is paid, and if he cannot, dismiss or . . . yes. This bureaucracy is not . . . train him. Train him. If he does not know, train him. But things must be done very nicely by cooperation. That is wanted. Everyone should remember that we are serving Kṛṣṇa, and everyone should remember, "The other person is serving Kṛṣṇa. And because he is serving Kṛṣṇa, he is not my servant; he is my master." That should be always in view. Therefore we address, " prabhu ": "You are my master." We never address, "You are my servant." We are trained up to say my brother, that " prabhu ," "such and such prabhu ." Prabhu means master. Nobody think himself that he is master. He should always think that everyone is his master because he's serving the master. This is our philosophy. So in this way . . . now you have got good arrangement and they're all intelligent persons, young persons. Akṣayānanda: All good people are here. Prabhupāda: So kindly settle up and do nice things. That I want to see. That's all. He is also present. At that time he was not present. So go and . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: You should always remember that you are helping me. Without your help I cannot do anything. So you do not be disturbed. Try to help me. That is my request. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupāda: Aap toh Hindi jaanti hai, thoda sanskrit sikh lijiye. (You already know Hindi, now learn Sanskrit well.) (end) *Prabhupāda: At least once in a month you must be shaven*-headed. Akṣayānanda: Actually, we usually shave more. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: We usually shave more than once a month. Two weeks. 'Cause after even two weeks it looks a little dirty. Hari-śauri: We can get very good wigs. *Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no need. It is simply . . . that is also mental concoction. Nowadays, if you go with coat*-pant, shaven headed, nobody will criticize you. It has become a practi . . . Russians, they used . . . that Krushchev I have seen. Bald head. Hari-śauri: Yes, bald head. Prabhupāda: And so many. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't have a śikhā , that's all. Prabhupāda: Oh? It is practice only. Akṣayānanda: No, it's nice. We shouldn't be afraid to do that. Then it will become more and more accepted. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's so timely. Once we start diverting, like on these records . . . I was thinking after you told me not to do it. We started, now there's so many. Everyone's into records. Everyone wants to diversify into so many other areas. There's no end to it. *Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you were in Los Angeles you heard that new record by Kṛṣṇa*-kānti. *Hari-śauri: This pop music? This tape that you just got of that Western*-style music. Jagadīśa: Apparently in a new BBT newsletter which just came yesterday afternoon there's a statement by Rāmeśvara that you were asked whether this record should be played in the temples, and you said, "Why not in the temples?" Hari-śauri thought that you said "Not in the temples"; Rāmeśvara said . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. Not in the temple. I . . . I want . . . if the wordings are all right, so there is no . . . if there is no mistake in the set*-up of the wording, the change of musical tune, that is not harmful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This one tape that Alex has made, he gave me a copy in Bombay to listen. I just played it . . . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, this vibration, you can make in different tune. We are already doing that. Hari-śauri: But we're talking about these songs that they are writing. Jagadīśa: Philosophy songs. Hari-śauri: Like this, er . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to see the words. Hari-śauri: Like the "Caterpillar had a change of heart." Jagadīśa: If the words are all right, then they can be played? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because no one can hear the words. It's the pop music that people hear. Akṣayānanda: Actually the words are just like modern pop songs. You can't tell really what it means. I suggested to those people . . . I said: "Why don't you put to music to Prabhupāda's books? Take the words straight from your . . ." Hari-śauri: No, Prabhupāda's approved this method for attracting karmīs . Akṣayānanda: Yes, not for devotees. Hari-śauri: But the thing is, once you become a devotee, we don't need . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: That kind of music also reminds us of past bad activities, sinful activities. Hari-śauri: The question is whether should it be played in the temple or not? Prabhupāda: Temple may not be played. What is use of playing in the temple? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I know from practical experience, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that . . . I just played this Alex's record. It's all current pop music with English philosophy wording. (indistinct comments between devotees) And all the brahmacārīs were so agitated, they came to my room to listen and they were, you know, really making fun of it like it was a pop . . . Akṣayānanda: Because that style of music, it reminds us of the nightclubs or whatever it might be. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said it is better not to make these records. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just your records and paramparā records should be played, I think. There are so many tapes of your records. Hari-śauri: Yeah, well this style that they are doing now, they explain that they wanted that because then that way, they'll be able get them played on the radio. Otherwise they won't play bhajanas or anything on the radio. But there's a distinction between that kind of music and pure Kṛṣṇa consciousness music. Even though the words indicate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, most of the songs are written in such a way that it's like it's indirect. It's not directly Kṛṣṇa. It's indirect. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But you can't hear the words. Prabhupāda: Yes, indirect. Hari-śauri: They give this thing, "The caterpillar changed his mind," like that. It's like it provokes some speculation. Prabhupāda: No, indirect for gross outsiders, not for us. Therefore they should not be played in the temple. Gross outsider only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So, Prabhupāda, the New York temple has just produced a ballet on *Rāmāyaṇa* , and one boy, Vijayadeva, just came back and he brought a slideshow on that ballet. Prabhupāda: Ballet? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They did a ballet, the New York theater, Sudāmā Swami and his group. But that ballet is accompanied by a classical Western record in background. It's a twenty med . . . they have just played the whole record as background music. And I know, we showed it in Bombay, and none of the devotees liked it. They actually told me to stop that show because they said it's all māyā . Everyone saw it, Girirāja and . . . Prabhupāda: So they should be restricted. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, they're playing . . . serious devotees don't like. Like Girirāja walked out of the show, and he told me to stop it. Prabhupāda: So why it was played, this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They just brought it from New York, so we didn't know what it contained. But they are doing this in other centers. (end) *Prabhupāda: At least once in a month you must be shaven*-headed. Akṣayānanda: Actually, we usually shave more. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: We usually shave more than once a month. Two weeks. 'Cause after even two weeks it looks a little dirty. Hari-śauri: We can get very good wigs. *Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no need. It is simply . . . that is also mental concoction. Nowadays, if you go with coat*-pant, shaven headed, nobody will criticize you. It has become a practi . . . Russians, they used . . . that Krushchev I have seen. Bald head. Hari-śauri: Yes, bald head. Prabhupāda: And so many. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't have a śikhā , that's all. Prabhupāda: Oh? It is practice only. Akṣayānanda: No, it's nice. We shouldn't be afraid to do that. Then it will become more and more accepted. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's so timely. Once we start diverting, like on these records . . . I was thinking after you told me not to do it. We started, now there's so many. Everyone's into records. Everyone wants to diversify into so many other areas. There's no end to it. *Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you were in Los Angeles you heard that new record by Kṛṣṇa*-kānti. *Hari-śauri: This pop music? This tape that you just got of that Western*-style music. Jagadīśa: Apparently in a new BBT newsletter which just came yesterday afternoon there's a statement by Rāmeśvara that you were asked whether this record should be played in the temples, and you said, "Why not in the temples?" Hari-śauri thought that you said "Not in the temples"; Rāmeśvara said . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. Not in the temple. I . . . I want . . . if the wordings are all right, so there is no . . . if there is no mistake in the set*-up of the wording, the change of musical tune, that is not harmful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This one tape that Alex has made, he gave me a copy in Bombay to listen. I just played it . . . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, this vibration, you can make in different tune. We are already doing that. Hari-śauri: But we're talking about these songs that they are writing. Jagadīśa: Philosophy songs. Hari-śauri: Like this, er . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to see the words. Hari-śauri: Like the "Caterpillar had a change of heart." Jagadīśa: If the words are all right, then they can be played? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because no one can hear the words. It's the pop music that people hear. Akṣayānanda: Actually the words are just like modern pop songs. You can't tell really what it means. I suggested to those people . . . I said: "Why don't you put to music to Prabhupāda's books? Take the words straight from your . . ." Hari-śauri: No, Prabhupāda's approved this method for attracting karmīs . Akṣayānanda: Yes, not for devotees. Hari-śauri: But the thing is, once you become a devotee, we don't need . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: That kind of music also reminds us of past bad activities, sinful activities. Hari-śauri: The question is whether should it be played in the temple or not? Prabhupāda: Temple may not be played. What is use of playing in the temple? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I know from practical experience, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that . . . I just played this Alex's record. It's all current pop music with English philosophy wording. (indistinct comments between devotees) And all the brahmacārīs were so agitated, they came to my room to listen and they were, you know, really making fun of it like it was a pop . . . Akṣayānanda: Because that style of music, it reminds us of the nightclubs or whatever it might be. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said it is better not to make these records. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just your records and paramparā records should be played, I think. There are so many tapes of your records. Hari-śauri: Yeah, well this style that they are doing now, they explain that they wanted that because then that way, they'll be able get them played on the radio. Otherwise they won't play bhajanas or anything on the radio. But there's a distinction between that kind of music and pure Kṛṣṇa consciousness music. Even though the words indicate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, most of the songs are written in such a way that it's like it's indirect. It's not directly Kṛṣṇa. It's indirect. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But you can't hear the words. Prabhupāda: Yes, indirect. Hari-śauri: They give this thing, "The caterpillar changed his mind," like that. It's like it provokes some speculation. Prabhupāda: No, indirect for gross outsiders, not for us. Therefore they should not be played in the temple. Gross outsider only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So, Prabhupāda, the New York temple has just produced a ballet on *Rāmāyaṇa* , and one boy, Vijayadeva, just came back and he brought a slideshow on that ballet. Prabhupāda: Ballet? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They did a ballet, the New York theater, Sudāmā Swami and his group. But that ballet is accompanied by a classical Western record in background. It's a twenty med . . . they have just played the whole record as background music. And I know, we showed it in Bombay, and none of the devotees liked it. They actually told me to stop that show because they said it's all māyā . Everyone saw it, Girirāja and . . . Prabhupāda: So they should be restricted. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, they're playing . . . serious devotees don't like. Like Girirāja walked out of the show, and he told me to stop it. Prabhupāda: So why it was played, this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They just brought it from New York, so we didn't know what it contained. But they are doing this in other centers. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . be proper rainfall. And if there is proper rainfall, then you get sufficient food grains; *not only food grains, other things also. Sarva*-dughā mahī, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī ( SB 1.10.4). From the earth you can get all the necessities of life. Actually you are getting food grains, minerals, trees, fruits, flowers, everything from the earth. Sarva-dughā, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī . This mahī , when it is soaked with proper rains, it becomes fertile. Therefore we have to depend on the rainfall. There is one verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). Parjanya means rainfall. Rainfall means it is supplying all the necessities of life. And this rainfall will be easy when there is yajña . And nobody is performing yajña , therefore nowadays rainfall is scarcity. In Europe recently I have seen, there is no rainfall, whole Europe. It is on the verge of drying everything. So this punishment will come in this Kali-yuga. There will be no rainfall, and there will be not sufficient food supply, and the government will simply levy taxes on different pleas, and people will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their hearth and home and flee away to the forest. It is stated. So therefore you must perform yajña . And that is very easy in this age. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). You cannot perform the former yajñasa by sacrifice tons of ghee and grains because you have no sufficient food grains even. But still, if you chant this saṅkīrtana , that is yajña . Therefore you must take to saṅkīrtana-yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ . It is very easy. (break) . . . the duty of human being, prāṇaiḥ , with life— arthaiḥ , with money; dhiyā , with intelligence; *and vācā , by words. If one sacrifices his life for Kṛṣṇa's cause, then it is first*-class. If he cannot sacrifice his life for Kṛṣṇa he can contribute his hard-earned money for Kṛṣṇa. If he cannot do so—if he has no money—he can give some intelligence. If he is not intelligent, then he can give some words. Just like we are doing preaching. We are preaching, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). So without any jugglery of words we present to the people that, "Here is Bhagavān," kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . So giving some words, sacrificing some words. Not that every one of us is very highly educated or very rich. Still, if we carry the words of Kṛṣṇa . . . as Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7), so we have to carry these words that, "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa." Where is the difficulty? It is authorized. Kṛṣṇa says, and we simply carry the words. So where is difficulty? So simply by carrying these words that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He wants that you surrender unto Him." So any child can carry these words. Any foolish man can carry these words. And if you do that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, then you become guru , simply by carrying these words. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Even in your village, in your home, you can say to your wife, to your children. They will accept you that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Then you become guru at home. Where is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? But people will not do that. This truth they will not say. What is the reason? Say what is the reason why they do not carry this message, simply to say everyone, whomever you meet. You are meeting daily with your wife, to your children, your friends. If you simply do this missionary work and say that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," then you become a great devotee. You become a guru . Why people do not do so? It is not very difficult task. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said that, "By My order you become a guru ." Indians especially are advised to become guru because Indians, however fallen they may be, they still have respect for Kṛṣṇa. Every home, they perform Kṛṣṇa's Janmāṣṭamī. *So therefore Indians are fortunate. They recognize Kṛṣṇa. Now, to become little more advanced, let them act as Kṛṣṇa's servant. Kṛṣṇa came to speak this truth that, "I am the Supreme." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). He appeared to speak this philosophy. And if you do the same work that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," then you are serving the mission of Kṛṣṇa, great service to Kṛṣṇa. The words for which He appeared on this earth, if you simply carry these words door to door, village to village, man to man, then you become a guru , a real guru . Not to pose yourself a guru without any knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. That is cheating. And to accept and understand Kṛṣṇa the Supreme thoroughly and preach these words that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," is the supreme success of life. What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Why don't you do that? I have to bring all these young men from Europe and America to speak to you this truth. Why our young men is not coming to speak this truth? Hmm? What is the difficulty? That means willfully they are denying the success of life. Willfully. Then what can be done? If somebody willfully commits suicide, who can save him? This is our position at the present moment. The Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, : jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu: "I have drunk poison knowingly." So if somebody knowingly drinks poison, then who can save him? So we are doing that. Without preaching the gospel of Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are drinking poison willfully. This is our position. *Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura regrets, "My Lord, I have lost or I have wasted my valuable life as human being by not accepting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu, manuṣya*-janama pāiyā: "I got this opportunity of human life, but I could not worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Therefore voluntarily, willingly, I have drunk poison." Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana, rati nā janmilo kene tāya: "This transcendental Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , it is not ordinary vibration. This vibration is coming from the spiritual world, but I have no attraction." Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man: I talked to radio. Prabhupāda: Eh? Oh, you have taken so much trouble. Prasādam , some give it to . . . jaya . A very big block of farms. What is the name of that . . .? Eh? Indian men: Bechel. *Prabhupāda: Bechel. So we want so many men to live there nicely, to eat sumptuously, and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have seen while coming from Vṛndāvana to Delhi, hundreds and thousands of young men, they are going to the factories on cycle, coming from distant place, at least twenty miles, twenty*-five miles, and it takes two hours to reach the factory, or more than that. And there he works hard eight hours and then again goes back, two hours, three hours, on cycle. I do not know what kind of rest he takes. This is life. And if we request these young men that, "You come here. You live here comfortably. You eat here sumptuously and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they will not. Just see how unfortunate they are. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). This is Kali-yuga. All bad men, unfortunate and disturbed. This is the position. They will work so hard, they'll catch daily passenger trains, Calcutta, Bombay, I have seen. They are actually hanging, and some of them are falling down, lost life, and coming from hundred miles away. But still, if you ask him that, "You come here. Live with us. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even with your family you can come . . ." We are doing that at Māyāpur. He will not. How strong sense gratification propensity is. This is position of Kali-yuga. They are making propaganda, roṭi kāpra makān (food, clothing, shelter). So we are giving, "Come on, roṭi, makān, kāpra; you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." "No. I want wine. I want meat. I want rundi." This is going on. Simply they say: " Roṭi, kāpra, makān ." But no, they want wine, woman and sense pleasure, that's all. Roṭi, kāpra, makān is not difficult. You can get. But they want something more. You see how many advertisements for selling wine in your Hyderabad. Is that roṭi, kāpra, makān? Vāsughoṣa: Even the poorest of men. Just like when we were before, when this temple wasn't here and we were chopping away at the rocks in the foundation, we were paying twenty rupees a day for those men. And then they were . . . we were told that ten rupees every day would go for wine for those same men. Ten rupees out of the twenty they would immediately spend to drink. Even poor people. So many of them. Prabhupāda: And because we were trying to stop this thing in Europe or America there is agitation, that "These people are propagating brainwash. How is that, a man who will not eat, drink? This is brainwash." Hmm. He will paying ten rupees out of twenty rupees. Eh? *Vāsughoṣa: Yes, we were told like that, that they would take their twenty rupees' pay and then they would go and spend ten rupees on alcohol, drinking, toddy. (break) I was in . . . last time at the festival in Māyāpur I was riding from Māyāpur to Calcutta. And so one man was saying that "Oh, fish, 80 paisa a kg." "How much are potatoes?" I asked. So even their hard*-earned money, so much more they spend just to eat meat, to enjoy their senses. It is not even . . . it doesn't make sense in any way. *Prabhupāda: And that also, they cannot live on meat. They must have vegetable also. Without vegetable, simple meat*-eating will not help them. (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Just like a man, when he is haunted by a ghost, he speaks nonsense, he does nonsense. Similarly, when one is absorbed, overwhelmed by māyā , he speaks like that, he talks like that, he acts like that. (break) . . . scientists manufacture? They are very . . . (indistinct) . . . they are very proud of becoming scientists. Such nice flower, can anyone manufacture? And still, the rascal, they say there is no God. Hmm? What do you think? How do they say there is no God, these rascals? What is the reason? Vāsughoṣa: Actually, I think they are all misers. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vāsughoṣa: They are also misers. They want to enjoy. *Prabhupāda: No, misers, I say rascals, fools and rascals. That's all. That is their real position, mūḍha. Mūḍha . This very word is used in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mūḍha. Mūḍha means rascal, ass. Asses. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he is mūḍha , ass. He is not human being. If you are intelligent enough, by seeing this flower you must admit there is God. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Find out this verse. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam: " Mūḍha , rascals, they cannot understand that I am behind everything." (to boy) Come here. Who has manufactured this flower? Boy: God. Prabhupāda: Very good. (laughter) Thank you. He is intelligent. And the rascal will say, "There is no God." Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam . Aiyye idhar aiyye. Please come this way. That's all right. What is that verse? I am very pleased that he has immediately answered the right thing. This is intelligence. Devotee (1): Is this the one? Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya (BG 7.25)? Prabhupāda: No, it is . . . which chapter it is? Devotee (1): Seventh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Read the verse whole. *Devotee (1): Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti . . . (BG 7.25). Prabhupāda: Mām ebhyaḥ . Yes, read that. Tejiyas: "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My . . ." Prabhupāda: Now, here is intelligence. This boy has got intelligence; *therefore he can see, behind this flower there is God. He immediately answered. That is intelligence. He is not seeing God, but he's seeing God. God is not present face to face, but it doesn't matter. Just like the prime minister of our country, she may not be present here, but that does not mean that she is not there. She is there. So these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" How can you see Him? By intelligence. Just like this fan is running. The powerhouse is not here, but intelligent man will understand that there is electric powerhouse from where the electricity energy is supplied, and therefore the fan is running. By the running of the fan, one can understand that there is a big powerhouse and there is an electric engineer there who is conducting the business. That is sufficient, to see the running of the fan. That is intelligence. And if somebody says: "No, no, the fan is running automatically," that is not possible. You are experiencing every moment—as soon as the electric energy is stopped, the fan is stopped. The room is dark. So there is powerhouse behind this electric energy, and the powerhouse is being managed by one engineer. This is natural conclusion. And Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram: "Under My supervision the material nature is working." Find out this verse. Tejiyas: "This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again." Prabhupāda: Purport? Tejiyas: "It is clearly stated here that the Supreme Lord, although aloof from all the activities of the material world, remains the supreme director. The Supreme Lord is the supreme will and the background of this material manifestation." Prabhupāda: The modern scientists, their first business is to deny that Supreme. That is modern. It is a curse for the scientist if they talk of God. Amongst the scientists this is an etiquette, not to talk of God. Everything science. Means everything nonsense, passing on as scientist. Do you believe this? Devotee: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: The scientists' position denying God, do you think? Mahāṁśa: It's always changing now. They continue this . . . Vāsughoṣa: They feel great anxiety also to talk about God. Once, about three years ago, I had met one big scientist from University of Chicago. Just a chance there was one . . . my father had invited me back home for something; the scientist was there. We got in a big discussion with him and his daughter. They were just saying: "We don't see God. We have no . . . there is no evidence of God." Even logically we could show them. They still didn't want to accept. It was so obvious to them. Ultimately they couldn't say anything. Prabhupāda: What is their logic to deny God? *Vāsughoṣa: It's not logic. They don't have any logic. And ultimately, if we present our conclusions of Bhagavad*-gītā to them, they are silenced. They can't say anything. But they still refu . . . I mean, they don't accept it, but they can't deny it. Prabhupāda: That is dog's obstinacy. The dog, however you ask the dog to stop barking, it will go on barking. Dog's obstinacy. Hmm. (someone brings something) What is that? I have taken. *Tejiyas: "But in the management . . . but the management is being conducted by material nature. Kṛṣṇa also states in Bhagavad*-gītā that of all the living entities in different forms and species, 'I am the father.' The father gives seeds to the womb of the mother for the child, and similarly the Supreme Lord by His mere glance injects all the living entities into the womb of material nature, and they come out in their different forms and species, according to their last desires and activities. All these living entities, although born under the glance of the Supreme Lord, still take their different bodies according to their past deeds and desires. So the Lord is not directly attached to this material creation. He simply glances over material nature; material nature is thus activated, and everything is created immediately. Because He glances over material nature, there is undoubtedly activity on the part of the Supreme Lord, but He has nothing to do with the manifestation of the material world directly. This example is given in the smṛti: when there is a fragrant flower before someone, the fragrance is touched by the smelling power of the person, yet the smelling and the flower are detached from one another. There is a similar connection between the material world and the Supreme Personality of Godhead—actually He has nothing to do with the material world, but He creates by His glance and ordains. In summary, material nature, without the superintendence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, cannot do anything. Yet the Supreme Personality is detached from all material activities." (break) Prabhupāda: . . . ārati? Tejiyas: Seven. Prabhupāda: God is one. Others, they are . . . just like president is one; others are government servant. Similarly, God is one. There cannot be other God. Then he is not God. Indian man (1): But Kṛṣṇa says in *Gītā*, rudrāṇāṁ śaṅkaro 'smi. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Rudrāṇāṁ śaṅkaro 'smi . That means just like Śaṅkara has got some godly power. Indian man (1): Suppose if someone worships . . . they are worshiper of Śiva. Prabhupāda: But that is not God worship. That is Śiva worship. Why do you bring God worship? Indian man (1): God . . . (indistinct) . . . these are going directly to the Śiva. Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (1): No, not directly. *Prabhupāda: You can go to Lord Śiva. Yānti deva*-vratā devān (BG 9.25). *Guest: Mad*-bhakta yājino . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām . There is distinction. You purchase ticket for Delhi, you can go to Delhi. How you can go to Bombay? Indian man (1): But among the people there is a misconception. Prabhupāda: Then people are rascals. Therefore the mūḍhas they are. What value they have got? They have no value. Indian man (2): . . . (indistinct Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: That's all right. You can have respect for everyone. That is good. But it does not mean that by purchasing ticket for Delhi you go to Bombay. And it does not mean that because you do not go to Bombay you have no respect for Delhi. That is not. But if you want to go to Delhi, you have purchased a ticket for Delhi. If you want to go to Bombay you must purchase a ticket for Bombay. Why do you speak nonsensically that, "Whatever ticket I purchase, I go to Bombay"? (laughter) This is nonsense. They'll take to this nonsense theory. That is Vivekananda's theory. "Whatever you do, it is all right." Yato mata tato patha . And that is not fact. Indian man (1): These are all paths lead to the Supreme. *Prabhupāda: How? Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva*-vratā devān (BG 9.25). How, you nonsense, straightly say that everyone goes to God? This is nonsense. You can go to Śiva, you can go to Indra, Chandra . . . there are so many planets, and you'll go there. And that is reasonable. And how do you say that "Whatever ticket I purchase, I go to this, Delhi?" Vāsughoṣa: They say that all . . . they're all the same. *Prabhupāda: "They say." Therefore they are nonsense, mūḍha , rascals. They do not know what is God, what is demigod, what is Lord Śiva, what is Lord Viṣṇu or Brahmā. They do not know. If a woman says: "Oh, everyone is my husband," then she is a prostitute. That's all. A chaste woman will say: "No, there is one, my husband. That's all." That is chaste woman. And if she is liberal, if she says: "No, no, everyone is my husband," that means she is prostitute. She does not know what is value of husband. In Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ (BG 7.20): "Those who have adhered to other demigods, they have lost their intelligence," hṛta-jñānāḥ, "rascals." They'll go. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23). Because they are rascals, they prefer like that. The public opinion will be taken; *Kṛṣṇa's opinion will be . . . public is rascals. They can say all nonsense. That is not to be taken. You have to take—that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement—what Kṛṣṇa says. What do you think? Kṛṣṇa says, kāmais tais tair hṛta*-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ . *Indian man (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? But one man in Bangalore was talking. He was saying that everything there goes to Govinda, even . . . (indistinct) . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (indistinct) . . . because so many people following, they are also following. Prabhupāda: Yes. So public opinion dictates that "This property is ours." Will he give by votes? Why he'll protest on that point? Indian man (1): His point is that because everyone is telling Kṛṣṇa is Supreme, therefore you are also supreme, but what does it proof that Kṛṣṇa is Supreme? Everyone is calling as . . . Prabhupāda: So we have to meet such rascals and we have to preach. The world is full of rascals, mūḍha . What can be done? But we cannot change our preaching because the rascals are many. That is not . . . we cannot make that . . . Indian man (1): There is no medicine for mūḍhas . *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is medicine: there is beating with shoes. That is medicine. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ, argumentum baculum. You cannot mildly speak to the animals, "My dear cow, my dear dog, please do not bark. Do not go this way." No, you require lāṭhi , stick, and they will behave. Can you stop dog's barking by simply request? But you take the stick and beat it, and he will stop. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ . So there is no king. There is no kṣatriya . Therefore these rascals are talking all nonsense. There is no śāsana . This is king's duty, to see that they are acting according to śāstra . But there is no such king. So everyone is acting whimsically, whatever he likes, and the so*-called svāmīs are preaching, "No, no, whatever you like, that's all right. You can eat whatever you like. You can do whatever you like. You think yourself that you are God, that's all right." This is going on. By thinking himself that he's God, he becomes God. This is going on, so many meditations: "I am moving the sun, I am moving the moon, I am moving . . . mo-mo-mo-mo." (laughter) And rascals are following them. Indian man (1): They do not know the process of God. *Prabhupāda: I know. There is no question of individual. I know these rascals. God is so easy thing that simply by I am thinking that "I am moving the sun, I am moving the . . . mo*-mo-mo-mo," he'll . . . because the whole world is mūḍha , we cannot say that, "Yes, I am also with you. I am also one of the mūḍha ." We cannot say. The votes may be against us, but we cannot agree to that. We simply speak for Kṛṣṇa's sake. That is Kṛṣṇa. We cannot make any compromise. What do they say about this version in the Bhagavad-gītā , kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ (BG 7.20)? What do they say? What is their opinion? But don't say: "Somebody said . . ." Everyone is fool, rascal. What is the value of their words? Indian man (1): Or this one mission says, "You worship . . . your is the devatā ." . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, I know these rascals. Therefore the country's position is the godless India. They lost their culture. Vāsughoṣa: They had big propaganda that Sai Baba is God also. He was saying in the . . . these professors challenged him, so he said, "How can an ant try and understand an ocean?" He made that statement, that the Professor at Bangalore University, Vice Chancellor said that, you know, so many . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Does that mean we have to accept him? That does not mean we have to accept. (break) . . . one is against this movement because we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. (break) Indian man (1): . . . when I was talking to him, he said only . . . (indistinct) . . . we don't call it anything, but we want to. But all the movements . . . (indistinct) . . . everything. *Prabhupāda: That means prostitute. "Everyone is my husband." Prostitution. That's all. (break) . . . does not know what is duty. Duty is sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). This is duty. Kṛṣṇa never said that, "Everything is all right." He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: "Simply surrender unto Me." That is duty. They do not know what is duty. And he's manufacturing his duty. That is not duty. Duty is that which is ordered by the superior authorities, "You do this." So if he does that, that is discharge of duty. And if he manufactures his duty, that is not duty. That is concoction. So they are manufacturing duty. That is not duty. If the child manufactures a duty that "I shall play all day. This is my duty," will the parents accept it? Indian man (1): Under . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: No. But if he knows? But he does not know. That is the difficulty. That I was explaining, mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍho nābhijānāti . He does not know what is duty because he's a mūḍha. If you say: "If he knows," but "If he knows" means it is difficult to know what is duty. The mūḍhas , they cannot know what is duty. Therefore Kṛṣṇa personally says: "This is duty: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). This is duty." Devotee: Also the paramahaṁsas never speak, they say. *Prabhupāda: Paramahaṁsa may speak all nonsense, but Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all the ācāryas —Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Nimbārka, Caitanya. They are important men. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So we have to give up the instruction of ācārya and accept some rascal? That we cannot do. Ācāryopāsanam . In Bhagavad*-gītā it is recommended that you should worship the ācārya , not these rascals who talks all nonsense. Then we'll make progress. Ācāryopāsanam . Is it not? Ācāryopāsanam is there. And still in India the ācārya's paramparā system existing, sampradāya . Rāmānuja-sampradāya, Madhvācārya-sampradāya, Nimbārka, going on. Jaiyye sab arati dekhiye. (Please go and watch the arati .) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . be proper rainfall. And if there is proper rainfall, then you get sufficient food grains; *not only food grains, other things also. Sarva*-dughā mahī, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī ( SB 1.10.4). From the earth you can get all the necessities of life. Actually you are getting food grains, minerals, trees, fruits, flowers, everything from the earth. Sarva-dughā, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī . This mahī , when it is soaked with proper rains, it becomes fertile. Therefore we have to depend on the rainfall. There is one verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). Parjanya means rainfall. Rainfall means it is supplying all the necessities of life. And this rainfall will be easy when there is yajña . And nobody is performing yajña , therefore nowadays rainfall is scarcity. In Europe recently I have seen, there is no rainfall, whole Europe. It is on the verge of drying everything. So this punishment will come in this Kali-yuga. There will be no rainfall, and there will be not sufficient food supply, and the government will simply levy taxes on different pleas, and people will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their hearth and home and flee away to the forest. It is stated. So therefore you must perform yajña . And that is very easy in this age. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). You cannot perform the former yajñasa by sacrifice tons of ghee and grains because you have no sufficient food grains even. But still, if you chant this saṅkīrtana , that is yajña . Therefore you must take to saṅkīrtana-yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ . It is very easy. (break) . . . the duty of human being, prāṇaiḥ , with life— arthaiḥ , with money; dhiyā , with intelligence; *and vācā , by words. If one sacrifices his life for Kṛṣṇa's cause, then it is first*-class. If he cannot sacrifice his life for Kṛṣṇa he can contribute his hard-earned money for Kṛṣṇa. If he cannot do so—if he has no money—he can give some intelligence. If he is not intelligent, then he can give some words. Just like we are doing preaching. We are preaching, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). So without any jugglery of words we present to the people that, "Here is Bhagavān," kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . So giving some words, sacrificing some words. Not that every one of us is very highly educated or very rich. Still, if we carry the words of Kṛṣṇa . . . as Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7), so we have to carry these words that, "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa." Where is the difficulty? It is authorized. Kṛṣṇa says, and we simply carry the words. So where is difficulty? So simply by carrying these words that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He wants that you surrender unto Him." So any child can carry these words. Any foolish man can carry these words. And if you do that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, then you become guru , simply by carrying these words. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Even in your village, in your home, you can say to your wife, to your children. They will accept you that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Then you become guru at home. Where is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? But people will not do that. This truth they will not say. What is the reason? Say what is the reason why they do not carry this message, simply to say everyone, whomever you meet. You are meeting daily with your wife, to your children, your friends. If you simply do this missionary work and say that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," then you become a great devotee. You become a guru . Why people do not do so? It is not very difficult task. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said that, "By My order you become a guru ." Indians especially are advised to become guru because Indians, however fallen they may be, they still have respect for Kṛṣṇa. Every home, they perform Kṛṣṇa's Janmāṣṭamī. *So therefore Indians are fortunate. They recognize Kṛṣṇa. Now, to become little more advanced, let them act as Kṛṣṇa's servant. Kṛṣṇa came to speak this truth that, "I am the Supreme." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). He appeared to speak this philosophy. And if you do the same work that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," then you are serving the mission of Kṛṣṇa, great service to Kṛṣṇa. The words for which He appeared on this earth, if you simply carry these words door to door, village to village, man to man, then you become a guru , a real guru . Not to pose yourself a guru without any knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. That is cheating. And to accept and understand Kṛṣṇa the Supreme thoroughly and preach these words that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," is the supreme success of life. What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Why don't you do that? I have to bring all these young men from Europe and America to speak to you this truth. Why our young men is not coming to speak this truth? Hmm? What is the difficulty? That means willfully they are denying the success of life. Willfully. Then what can be done? If somebody willfully commits suicide, who can save him? This is our position at the present moment. The Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, : jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu: "I have drunk poison knowingly." So if somebody knowingly drinks poison, then who can save him? So we are doing that. Without preaching the gospel of Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are drinking poison willfully. This is our position. *Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura regrets, "My Lord, I have lost or I have wasted my valuable life as human being by not accepting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu, manuṣya*-janama pāiyā: "I got this opportunity of human life, but I could not worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Therefore voluntarily, willingly, I have drunk poison." Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana, rati nā janmilo kene tāya: "This transcendental Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , it is not ordinary vibration. This vibration is coming from the spiritual world, but I have no attraction." Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man: I talked to radio. Prabhupāda: Eh? Oh, you have taken so much trouble. Prasādam , some give it to . . . jaya . A very big block of farms. What is the name of that . . .? Eh? Indian men: Bechel. *Prabhupāda: Bechel. So we want so many men to live there nicely, to eat sumptuously, and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have seen while coming from Vṛndāvana to Delhi, hundreds and thousands of young men, they are going to the factories on cycle, coming from distant place, at least twenty miles, twenty*-five miles, and it takes two hours to reach the factory, or more than that. And there he works hard eight hours and then again goes back, two hours, three hours, on cycle. I do not know what kind of rest he takes. This is life. And if we request these young men that, "You come here. You live here comfortably. You eat here sumptuously and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they will not. Just see how unfortunate they are. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). This is Kali-yuga. All bad men, unfortunate and disturbed. This is the position. They will work so hard, they'll catch daily passenger trains, Calcutta, Bombay, I have seen. They are actually hanging, and some of them are falling down, lost life, and coming from hundred miles away. But still, if you ask him that, "You come here. Live with us. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even with your family you can come . . ." We are doing that at Māyāpur. He will not. How strong sense gratification propensity is. This is position of Kali-yuga. They are making propaganda, roṭi kāpra makān (food, clothing, shelter). So we are giving, "Come on, roṭi, makān, kāpra; you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." "No. I want wine. I want meat. I want rundi." This is going on. Simply they say: " Roṭi, kāpra, makān ." But no, they want wine, woman and sense pleasure, that's all. Roṭi, kāpra, makān is not difficult. You can get. But they want something more. You see how many advertisements for selling wine in your Hyderabad. Is that roṭi, kāpra, makān? Vāsughoṣa: Even the poorest of men. Just like when we were before, when this temple wasn't here and we were chopping away at the rocks in the foundation, we were paying twenty rupees a day for those men. And then they were . . . we were told that ten rupees every day would go for wine for those same men. Ten rupees out of the twenty they would immediately spend to drink. Even poor people. So many of them. Prabhupāda: And because we were trying to stop this thing in Europe or America there is agitation, that "These people are propagating brainwash. How is that, a man who will not eat, drink? This is brainwash." Hmm. He will paying ten rupees out of twenty rupees. Eh? *Vāsughoṣa: Yes, we were told like that, that they would take their twenty rupees' pay and then they would go and spend ten rupees on alcohol, drinking, toddy. (break) I was in . . . last time at the festival in Māyāpur I was riding from Māyāpur to Calcutta. And so one man was saying that "Oh, fish, 80 paisa a kg." "How much are potatoes?" I asked. So even their hard*-earned money, so much more they spend just to eat meat, to enjoy their senses. It is not even . . . it doesn't make sense in any way. *Prabhupāda: And that also, they cannot live on meat. They must have vegetable also. Without vegetable, simple meat*-eating will not help them. (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Just like a man, when he is haunted by a ghost, he speaks nonsense, he does nonsense. Similarly, when one is absorbed, overwhelmed by māyā , he speaks like that, he talks like that, he acts like that. (break) . . . scientists manufacture? They are very . . . (indistinct) . . . they are very proud of becoming scientists. Such nice flower, can anyone manufacture? And still, the rascal, they say there is no God. Hmm? What do you think? How do they say there is no God, these rascals? What is the reason? Vāsughoṣa: Actually, I think they are all misers. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vāsughoṣa: They are also misers. They want to enjoy. *Prabhupāda: No, misers, I say rascals, fools and rascals. That's all. That is their real position, mūḍha. Mūḍha . This very word is used in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mūḍha. Mūḍha means rascal, ass. Asses. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he is mūḍha , ass. He is not human being. If you are intelligent enough, by seeing this flower you must admit there is God. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Find out this verse. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam: " Mūḍha , rascals, they cannot understand that I am behind everything." (to boy) Come here. Who has manufactured this flower? Boy: God. Prabhupāda: Very good. (laughter) Thank you. He is intelligent. And the rascal will say, "There is no God." Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam . Aiyye idhar aiyye. Please come this way. That's all right. What is that verse? I am very pleased that he has immediately answered the right thing. This is intelligence. Devotee (1): Is this the one? Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya (BG 7.25)? Prabhupāda: No, it is . . . which chapter it is? Devotee (1): Seventh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Read the verse whole. *Devotee (1): Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti . . . (BG 7.25). Prabhupāda: Mām ebhyaḥ . Yes, read that. Tejiyas: "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My . . ." Prabhupāda: Now, here is intelligence. This boy has got intelligence; *therefore he can see, behind this flower there is God. He immediately answered. That is intelligence. He is not seeing God, but he's seeing God. God is not present face to face, but it doesn't matter. Just like the prime minister of our country, she may not be present here, but that does not mean that she is not there. She is there. So these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" How can you see Him? By intelligence. Just like this fan is running. The powerhouse is not here, but intelligent man will understand that there is electric powerhouse from where the electricity energy is supplied, and therefore the fan is running. By the running of the fan, one can understand that there is a big powerhouse and there is an electric engineer there who is conducting the business. That is sufficient, to see the running of the fan. That is intelligence. And if somebody says: "No, no, the fan is running automatically," that is not possible. You are experiencing every moment—as soon as the electric energy is stopped, the fan is stopped. The room is dark. So there is powerhouse behind this electric energy, and the powerhouse is being managed by one engineer. This is natural conclusion. And Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram: "Under My supervision the material nature is working." Find out this verse. Tejiyas: "This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again." Prabhupāda: Purport? Tejiyas: "It is clearly stated here that the Supreme Lord, although aloof from all the activities of the material world, remains the supreme director. The Supreme Lord is the supreme will and the background of this material manifestation." Prabhupāda: The modern scientists, their first business is to deny that Supreme. That is modern. It is a curse for the scientist if they talk of God. Amongst the scientists this is an etiquette, not to talk of God. Everything science. Means everything nonsense, passing on as scientist. Do you believe this? Devotee: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: The scientists' position denying God, do you think? Mahāṁśa: It's always changing now. They continue this . . . Vāsughoṣa: They feel great anxiety also to talk about God. Once, about three years ago, I had met one big scientist from University of Chicago. Just a chance there was one . . . my father had invited me back home for something; the scientist was there. We got in a big discussion with him and his daughter. They were just saying: "We don't see God. We have no . . . there is no evidence of God." Even logically we could show them. They still didn't want to accept. It was so obvious to them. Ultimately they couldn't say anything. Prabhupāda: What is their logic to deny God? *Vāsughoṣa: It's not logic. They don't have any logic. And ultimately, if we present our conclusions of Bhagavad*-gītā to them, they are silenced. They can't say anything. But they still refu . . . I mean, they don't accept it, but they can't deny it. Prabhupāda: That is dog's obstinacy. The dog, however you ask the dog to stop barking, it will go on barking. Dog's obstinacy. Hmm. (someone brings something) What is that? I have taken. *Tejiyas: "But in the management . . . but the management is being conducted by material nature. Kṛṣṇa also states in Bhagavad*-gītā that of all the living entities in different forms and species, 'I am the father.' The father gives seeds to the womb of the mother for the child, and similarly the Supreme Lord by His mere glance injects all the living entities into the womb of material nature, and they come out in their different forms and species, according to their last desires and activities. All these living entities, although born under the glance of the Supreme Lord, still take their different bodies according to their past deeds and desires. So the Lord is not directly attached to this material creation. He simply glances over material nature; material nature is thus activated, and everything is created immediately. Because He glances over material nature, there is undoubtedly activity on the part of the Supreme Lord, but He has nothing to do with the manifestation of the material world directly. This example is given in the smṛti: when there is a fragrant flower before someone, the fragrance is touched by the smelling power of the person, yet the smelling and the flower are detached from one another. There is a similar connection between the material world and the Supreme Personality of Godhead—actually He has nothing to do with the material world, but He creates by His glance and ordains. In summary, material nature, without the superintendence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, cannot do anything. Yet the Supreme Personality is detached from all material activities." (break) Prabhupāda: . . . ārati? Tejiyas: Seven. Prabhupāda: God is one. Others, they are . . . just like president is one; others are government servant. Similarly, God is one. There cannot be other God. Then he is not God. Indian man (1): But Kṛṣṇa says in *Gītā*, rudrāṇāṁ śaṅkaro 'smi. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Rudrāṇāṁ śaṅkaro 'smi . That means just like Śaṅkara has got some godly power. Indian man (1): Suppose if someone worships . . . they are worshiper of Śiva. Prabhupāda: But that is not God worship. That is Śiva worship. Why do you bring God worship? Indian man (1): God . . . (indistinct) . . . these are going directly to the Śiva. Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (1): No, not directly. *Prabhupāda: You can go to Lord Śiva. Yānti deva*-vratā devān (BG 9.25). *Guest: Mad*-bhakta yājino . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām . There is distinction. You purchase ticket for Delhi, you can go to Delhi. How you can go to Bombay? Indian man (1): But among the people there is a misconception. Prabhupāda: Then people are rascals. Therefore the mūḍhas they are. What value they have got? They have no value. Indian man (2): . . . (indistinct Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: That's all right. You can have respect for everyone. That is good. But it does not mean that by purchasing ticket for Delhi you go to Bombay. And it does not mean that because you do not go to Bombay you have no respect for Delhi. That is not. But if you want to go to Delhi, you have purchased a ticket for Delhi. If you want to go to Bombay you must purchase a ticket for Bombay. Why do you speak nonsensically that, "Whatever ticket I purchase, I go to Bombay"? (laughter) This is nonsense. They'll take to this nonsense theory. That is Vivekananda's theory. "Whatever you do, it is all right." Yato mata tato patha . And that is not fact. Indian man (1): These are all paths lead to the Supreme. *Prabhupāda: How? Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva*-vratā devān (BG 9.25). How, you nonsense, straightly say that everyone goes to God? This is nonsense. You can go to Śiva, you can go to Indra, Chandra . . . there are so many planets, and you'll go there. And that is reasonable. And how do you say that "Whatever ticket I purchase, I go to this, Delhi?" Vāsughoṣa: They say that all . . . they're all the same. *Prabhupāda: "They say." Therefore they are nonsense, mūḍha , rascals. They do not know what is God, what is demigod, what is Lord Śiva, what is Lord Viṣṇu or Brahmā. They do not know. If a woman says: "Oh, everyone is my husband," then she is a prostitute. That's all. A chaste woman will say: "No, there is one, my husband. That's all." That is chaste woman. And if she is liberal, if she says: "No, no, everyone is my husband," that means she is prostitute. She does not know what is value of husband. In Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ (BG 7.20): "Those who have adhered to other demigods, they have lost their intelligence," hṛta-jñānāḥ, "rascals." They'll go. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23). Because they are rascals, they prefer like that. The public opinion will be taken; *Kṛṣṇa's opinion will be . . . public is rascals. They can say all nonsense. That is not to be taken. You have to take—that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement—what Kṛṣṇa says. What do you think? Kṛṣṇa says, kāmais tais tair hṛta*-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ . *Indian man (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? But one man in Bangalore was talking. He was saying that everything there goes to Govinda, even . . . (indistinct) . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (indistinct) . . . because so many people following, they are also following. Prabhupāda: Yes. So public opinion dictates that "This property is ours." Will he give by votes? Why he'll protest on that point? Indian man (1): His point is that because everyone is telling Kṛṣṇa is Supreme, therefore you are also supreme, but what does it proof that Kṛṣṇa is Supreme? Everyone is calling as . . . Prabhupāda: So we have to meet such rascals and we have to preach. The world is full of rascals, mūḍha . What can be done? But we cannot change our preaching because the rascals are many. That is not . . . we cannot make that . . . Indian man (1): There is no medicine for mūḍhas . *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is medicine: there is beating with shoes. That is medicine. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ, argumentum baculum. You cannot mildly speak to the animals, "My dear cow, my dear dog, please do not bark. Do not go this way." No, you require lāṭhi , stick, and they will behave. Can you stop dog's barking by simply request? But you take the stick and beat it, and he will stop. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ . So there is no king. There is no kṣatriya . Therefore these rascals are talking all nonsense. There is no śāsana . This is king's duty, to see that they are acting according to śāstra . But there is no such king. So everyone is acting whimsically, whatever he likes, and the so*-called svāmīs are preaching, "No, no, whatever you like, that's all right. You can eat whatever you like. You can do whatever you like. You think yourself that you are God, that's all right." This is going on. By thinking himself that he's God, he becomes God. This is going on, so many meditations: "I am moving the sun, I am moving the moon, I am moving . . . mo-mo-mo-mo." (laughter) And rascals are following them. Indian man (1): They do not know the process of God. *Prabhupāda: I know. There is no question of individual. I know these rascals. God is so easy thing that simply by I am thinking that "I am moving the sun, I am moving the . . . mo*-mo-mo-mo," he'll . . . because the whole world is mūḍha , we cannot say that, "Yes, I am also with you. I am also one of the mūḍha ." We cannot say. The votes may be against us, but we cannot agree to that. We simply speak for Kṛṣṇa's sake. That is Kṛṣṇa. We cannot make any compromise. What do they say about this version in the Bhagavad-gītā , kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ (BG 7.20)? What do they say? What is their opinion? But don't say: "Somebody said . . ." Everyone is fool, rascal. What is the value of their words? Indian man (1): Or this one mission says, "You worship . . . your is the devatā ." . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, I know these rascals. Therefore the country's position is the godless India. They lost their culture. Vāsughoṣa: They had big propaganda that Sai Baba is God also. He was saying in the . . . these professors challenged him, so he said, "How can an ant try and understand an ocean?" He made that statement, that the Professor at Bangalore University, Vice Chancellor said that, you know, so many . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Does that mean we have to accept him? That does not mean we have to accept. (break) . . . one is against this movement because we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. (break) Indian man (1): . . . when I was talking to him, he said only . . . (indistinct) . . . we don't call it anything, but we want to. But all the movements . . . (indistinct) . . . everything. *Prabhupāda: That means prostitute. "Everyone is my husband." Prostitution. That's all. (break) . . . does not know what is duty. Duty is sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). This is duty. Kṛṣṇa never said that, "Everything is all right." He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: "Simply surrender unto Me." That is duty. They do not know what is duty. And he's manufacturing his duty. That is not duty. Duty is that which is ordered by the superior authorities, "You do this." So if he does that, that is discharge of duty. And if he manufactures his duty, that is not duty. That is concoction. So they are manufacturing duty. That is not duty. If the child manufactures a duty that "I shall play all day. This is my duty," will the parents accept it? Indian man (1): Under . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: No. But if he knows? But he does not know. That is the difficulty. That I was explaining, mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍho nābhijānāti . He does not know what is duty because he's a mūḍha. If you say: "If he knows," but "If he knows" means it is difficult to know what is duty. The mūḍhas , they cannot know what is duty. Therefore Kṛṣṇa personally says: "This is duty: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). This is duty." Devotee: Also the paramahaṁsas never speak, they say. *Prabhupāda: Paramahaṁsa may speak all nonsense, but Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all the ācāryas —Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Nimbārka, Caitanya. They are important men. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So we have to give up the instruction of ācārya and accept some rascal? That we cannot do. Ācāryopāsanam . In Bhagavad*-gītā it is recommended that you should worship the ācārya , not these rascals who talks all nonsense. Then we'll make progress. Ācāryopāsanam . Is it not? Ācāryopāsanam is there. And still in India the ācārya's paramparā system existing, sampradāya . Rāmānuja-sampradāya, Madhvācārya-sampradāya, Nimbārka, going on. Jaiyye sab arati dekhiye. (Please go and watch the arati .) (end) *Ānandamaya: . . . the greatest program in this life is birth, old age, disease and death. And Bhagavad*-gītā gives the remedy for . . . Prabhupāda: This is good. If you want to stop this repetition of birth, death, old age and disease, then you must take the way of life spoken by . . . (break) Ānandamaya: . . . seem to be . . . Prabhupāda: Nobody is in healthy condition. (devotee offers obeisances) (break) *Ānandamaya: Just like a medicine. We may understand it. For myself, I can tell. I study Bhagavad*-gītā and I understand it, but I find so much difficulty to applicate it to the life of every day because . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . everything is difficult, but . . . why "but"? (pause) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . a physician, to purchase the medicine, to drink the medicine, that is also difficult, but we have to do that. *Guest (1) (Indian man): Bhagavad*-gītā gives the way to go back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Guest (1): Bhagavad*-gītā gives the way to go back to Godhead. Otherwise one has to suffer continuously. Prabhupāda: Yes, this material world, birth after birth. One birth, suffering, then again die, again another birth, again suffering. But the people are kept in ignorance. They do not know how the soul is transmigrating. (aside) Aiye. Betiye. (Come and sit.) From . . . ask them to sit down properly. Why don't you . . . is there any seat, proper? So you . . . Ye to sub halka hai. (This is all right.) What was the topic? What was going on, the topic? Ānandamaya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning we went to this engagement. There was the inauguration of the Vivekananda Society Home, so we went there on saṅkīrtana because we were invited by them. And one svāmī spoke, and he said service to mankind was also service to God. And at the end he also said that Vivekananda used to say that for the housewife, that the cooking pot was becoming God, had become God, had become a God. Prabhupāda: And people applauded. This is foolishness. They do not know how to act. Just like if you pour water on the tree, then it is accepted that you are pouring water on the tree. But that is not the process. The process is to pour water on the root of the tree. Practically we . . . you can make an experiment. Just like here is a tree. You don't pour water on the root but pour water on the leaves. Then it will dry in due course of time. It will not be effective. But if you pour water on the root, the water will go everywhere. So the whole thing is just like a tree. God is the origin of everything. He is the root. Aham ādir hi devānām ( BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Therefore He is the root. So if you pour water in the root, then the water is distributed everywhere. But if you pour water on the leaves, on the twigs, on the fruits, it will take time and it will not be successful. *So one who is not in awareness of the laws of nature, they commit this mistake. We can say that pouring water on the leaves is also pouring water on the tree—by serving human being you can serve the Supreme Lord. But that is not the way. Another example is that if you supply food to the stomach, then the share is partaken by all the parts of the body. But if you supply food to the part of the body, it is not shared by other part of the body. They are opening hospital for men, human being, but what about the animals? They are also part and parcel of God. They are killing them. So they have no realization of God. God says, sarva*-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4). Suppose I have got several sons. If you take care of my one son and you neglect others I will not be happy, naturally. But if you take care of all my sons, then I'll be happy. For a father there is no such distinction that, "My particular son should be taken care of and other should be neglected or they should be killed." That is not father's view. So if God is the father of all living entities, if you take simply care of the human being, then what of the others? There are so many fallacies in this argument, that by taking care of the human being you worship God. There are so many fallacies. Hmm? Is it not? So you have to put this argument that, "By serving human society is to serve God, that is not fact." That may be partially, it is not complete. Ānandamaya: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, so he talked about all these things . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I cannot hear. Ānandamaya: He didn't talk once about Kṛṣṇa. He didn't mention once the name of Kṛṣṇa, and he didn't say anything about . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the root of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). So He is the root. So you pour water in the root. Just like we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. So because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, does it mean that we are not taking care of the human being? That is automatically coming. But those who are taking care of the human society only, social work, political work, they do not know even what Kṛṣṇa. Missing. That is the difference. Because we are taking of Kṛṣṇa, we have come to the human society. We are teaching them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, spiritual knowledge. That is automatically. We are feeding them, giving them prasādam . That is included. But those who are opening hospitals for human being, they are taking the poor animals to the slaughterhouse, maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. That means foolishness. Kṛṣṇa will not be happy that one son you take care by opening hospital and another son you go, you send him to the slaughterhouse. This is foolishness. Never. God will never be happy. The same example: if the father has got both children—you take care one of them and others you kill them—will the father be happy? So that is not the way of making the supreme father, God, happy. That is not the way. That is foolish way. Rather, displeasing the father. That is not a very good philosophy. Why you should make distinction? He claims: *Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7): "Every living entity is My part and parcel. Every living entity is begotten by Me. I am the father." So how you can make discrimination from one son to another? That is foolishness. You cannot expect by pleasing one son the father will be happy. But if you bring something to the father and pay him, or some food, "Sir, it is for your sons," then he'll be pleased. He'll distribute the foodstuff to his sons. But if you take care one of the sons and don't take care of the other son, the father will never please. Very . . . that is not the way of pleasing the father. That is foolishness. You may say that, "I am taking care of the best son," but to a father, either the best son or the lowest son, the same. Father does not make any . . . "Because this is best son, he should be satisfied and the worst sons should be neglect." Father does not make. Father will like better that, "You take care of my worst son first." And besides that, to take care of the human society, it is also bogus. Nobody can take care. There are so many problems in the human society, how you can take care? But the real problem is—that is for everyone— janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . Either he is animal, or human being, or demigod, or big man, or small man, or rich man, or poor man, a learned man, foolish man—these problems are there, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . So if you take care of these problems, how to save them, all of them, from these four problems, that is real service. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Otherwise temporary—"I am hungry. You give me some relief"—but that relief is temporary. I'll become again hungry. And if I come to you twice, thrice, you'll be disgusted. Neither you can. There are so many hungry men. But if with a view to solve his all problems of life, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi , if you take care of him, that is the best service. *Ānandamaya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, also Lord Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā at the end that "One who surrenders unto Me, he will be delivered from all material reactions and go to . . . (indistinct) . . ." But it is also said that some persons, they are more inclined to surrender than others. Prabhupāda: Yes. You should surrender, you should request others to surrender. That is service. Ānandamaya: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it because of their karma, past activity, that they . . . *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, one can immediately surrender if he likes. The background has nothing to do. Even the background is sinful, Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66): "I shall save you from reaction of sinful life." Then there is no consideration of their background. You simply surrender. Then it will be solved, everything. Ānandamaya: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, has anyone got the same ability to surrender? Because . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone has got. If I say: "You surrender," you just . . . what is . . . if you disagree, that is another. Otherwise you can surrender immediately. Where is the difficulty? Ānandamaya: So it's just by our personal whim that we can surrender. Prabhupāda: Anyone can surrender immediately. There is no difficulty. But if he does not, then nobody can induce him. Otherwise, if he likes, he can surrender immediately. And He said, voluntary. Kṛṣṇa does not force. If He would have forced, then He would not say: "You surrender." No, it is your will. If you like, you surrender. If I say: "You do this," that is not force. If you like, you can do it. That is your interest. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63): "Whatever you like, you do that. But I give you the right instruction, that if you surrender, you'll be happy." That is the greatest service. If you teach people how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the greatest service. That will solve his all problems. (aside) . . . (indistinct) . . . has . . . that's all. Bring water. If you don't surrender, then go on suffering. That's all. That is your business. You should surrender. Guest (2) (Indian man): I have got some doubt. Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (2): If we are all children of Lord Kṛṣṇa—all the living beings are a part of Kṛṣṇa—in that case childrens in thousands and hundreds who are killed every day . . . Prabhupāda: That is created by you, that you may become the sons of one father, but every one of you has got different tendency. Guest (2): But I can't see how . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, just try to understand that we are all sons of Kṛṣṇa. That's nice. (aside) No, there is another one. Devotee: Of brass? Prabhupāda: It is silver. You go. All right. A father has got five sons. Some of them are very learned; some of them foolish. Why? Does the father like that "The some of my sons should be rascals, and others should be very nice"? Does the father like it? Then why he becomes? Hmm? Guest (2): If one becomes . . . Prabhupāda: Purva janma para janma. (Reincarnation, rebirth.) That we say. Consider. But these varieties are there, so how you can check it? Cause may be different. I have seen while I was in Allahabad one big barrister's sons. One became barrister; another became ekala . You know ekala ? Ekala driver. So the father did not like that, "One of my sons should become ekala , and other son should be like me, barrister," but I have seen. And there are many instances. Father does not want that, "My son should be vagabond, useless," but sometimes they become by their own activities. That independence everyone has got. So that is not father's creation. Your point was "Why God has created like that?" That is foolishness. God says that, "You surrender." But you do not surrender. That is your foolishness. Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . must be punished. *Prabhupāda: Eh? Naturally. Suppose if there is some infectious disease, the doctor says: "Don't go there." And if you go there, you'll be infected. You'll suffer. How the doctor can protect you? Doctor's duty is to warn you not to go to that area, "It is now infected with smallpox." But in spite of doctor's instruction, if you go there and if you infect that disease and suffer, then it is your fault. When a man is hanged by the judgment of the court, do you think that the high*-court judge is inimical to that person? He's giving judgment to other persons that, "This one must make one lakh of rupees from that person." And next judgment, "This man must be hanged." Does it mean the high-court judge is partial? He's simply giving judgment on the merit of the particular case. So there is no argument that, "Why God has created so many varieties?" God has not created; *you have created. "Man is the architect of his own fortune." Fortune and misfortune you have created. So we have to suffer or so*-called enjoy. There is no enjoyment here. It is simply suffering. But because you are under māyā , you are thinking suffering as enjoying. Just like a hog is eating stool. Other man is becoming: "Very abominable! Oh, what nasty thing he is . . ." But he is enjoying. He is thinking, "I am enjoying the best food." I have seen in aeroplane. One Indian gentleman, he was eating the intestine of the hog. So it was horrible for me, but he was eating very nice. *So in this way the world is going on. "One man's food is another man's poison." So similarly, we are creating our next birth according to our desire. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). According to the infection of the different modes of material nature, we are creating good or bad body next life. The laws of nature is unknown to the foolish society. They are thinking, "This life is everything. Misled, they do not know the aim of life. That is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind leader is leading other blind men. This is going on. And when we present the real solution, they say it is brainwash. Now, against our movement there is propaganda in USA, charging that "He has brainwashed them." (aside) You can come here. Aage badhiye. (Move forward.) "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." This is our position. When we speak all these things, they say it is brainwashing movement. Actually it is brainwashing movement because we are dissipating all kinds of misunderstanding, values of life. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam . It is not brainwashing; *it is heart*-washing. Our heart is stacked with so many dirty things, so we are trying to wash it. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam (CC Antya 20.12). And that is our movement. We are trying to cleanse the heart so that he can understand himself. One can understand his real position and then do the needful, and life becomes successful. Guest (3) (Indian man): Where is soul? Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Jagad*-guru : He is asking where is the soul. Prabhupāda: Can you see? So soul is within the heart. When the soul goes away, you cannot explain what happened. You say: "Heart failure." So why the heart failure? The nerves and the bones and the muscle and the blood, everything is there, and still, you say that, "It stopped. Heart failure." So just like machine is running, but somehow or other stopped, but you do not know what is the cause of stopping. The cause is that the heart, when it goes away, then the machine stops. Guest (3): God is within the soul also. *Prabhupāda: Yes. God is along with you. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is there. *Guest (4) (Indian man): Swāmījī, in Bhagavad*-gītā it is telling karma also and surrendering also. Now, how it is possible? In karma-kāṇḍa . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Karma , if you do . . . just like we are preaching so many people to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, but they will not do it. Do you think our this instruction that, "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," is taken by everyone? Do you think? Suppose you are all here. We are preaching the same thing, that, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." But these boys, they have surrendered, but you have not surrendered. Guest (4): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand. It is . . . the free will is there. If you don't surrender, then, Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ : "Instead of sitting idly, better you do your prescribed duty." So prescribed duty is cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to guṇa and karma , there are four divisions. So if you are in the first-class division as brāhmaṇa , you do the brāhmaṇa's work. If you are a kṣatriya , you do the kṣatriya's . . . niyataṁ kuru karma . What is you are destined, you do that nicely. Don't be idle. That is Kṛṣṇa's in . . . but if you are intelligent, then Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). But you are foolish, then you be engaged in your prescribed duty. And if you are intelligent, then "You give up everything; simply surrender unto Me." That depends on you. If you are intelligent, you'll surrender; if you are not intelligent, be engaged in your karma . Kṛṣṇa is giving all facilities. Now it is up to you to make your selection. But He says, niyataṁ kuru karma . (aside) Find out this verse. Devotee (3): Should I read the translation? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): "Perform your prescribed duties, for action is better than inaction." Prabhupāda: But if you have no prescribed duties, then you are animal. Just like monkey. What is his duty? He is jumping simply and creating havoc. Monkey is very busy. Wherever he'll sit down, he'll " gat , gat , gat , gat ," like this. That's all. Very busy. But what is the meaning of his business? Simply creating disturbance Therefore it is said, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam : "Act on your prescribed duties." Don't act like a monkey. That is better. What is that? Devotee (3): "For action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." Prabhupāda: Then? Purport? *Devotee (3): Purport: "There are many pseudo*-meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set for kṣatriyas . Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya . Such activities gradually cleanse the heart . . ." Prabhupāda: You are following? Go on. *Devotee (3): ". . . and free him from material contamination. So*-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others." *Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad*-gītā is giving you gradual process to the highest point, and highest point is to surrender. That is the most confidential part of knowledge. Sarva-guhyatamam. Guhyād guhyataram . Find out this verse, Eighteenth Chapter. He has given the instruction of karma-yoga , jñāna , everything, but the most confidential instruction is this. Devotee (3): Translation: "Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit." Prabhupāda: Is there any purport? *Devotee (3): "The Lord has given Arjuna confidential knowledge of the Supersoul within everyone's heart, and now He is giving the most confidential part of this knowledge: just surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At the end of the Ninth Chapter He has said, 'Just always think of Me.' The same instruction is repeated here to stress the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . This essence is not understood by a common man, but by one who is actually very dear to Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. This is the most important instruction in all Vedic literature. What Kṛṣṇa is saying in this connection is the most essential part of knowledge, and it should be carried out not only by Arjuna but by all living entities." Prabhupāda: Guhyatamam , most confidential. This is not for all, but for the advanced person and who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, He says, iṣṭo 'si me . . .? What is that next? Iṣṭo 'si ? Devotee (3): Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi . Prabhupāda: Dṛḍham ? Devotee (3): Dṛḍham . Prabhupāda: No. What is the spelling? Devotee (3): Dṛḍham . Prabhupāda: No, no. The word, separate word? Iṣṭo 'si ? *Devotee (3): D*-r-d-h-a-m . Prabhupāda: Hitam . Devotee (3): Dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi te hitam . *Prabhupāda: Te hitam . So it is not for all. One who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee, for him, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man—"You do your prescribed duty." But they have no prescribed duty even. The people of this age, they are so fallen, they have no prescribed duty. They are simply engaged like animals—eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That's all. Animal is engaged like that, eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. So we are being educated only like animals. We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , vaiśya , utmost śūdra , like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping and sex and defense. Therefore śāstra says, nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). You should not live the life of a hog, viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ-bhujām means the stool-eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong, then "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life. *So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyataṁ kuru karma tvam . You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), and then your prescribed duties are there. If you want to become a brāhmaṇa , then śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam , jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). If you want to be kṣatriya, tejaḥ . . . what is that? Tejaḥ śauryaṁ yujyaṁ yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam . If you want to be a vaiśya , kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). And if you want to remain a śūdra , paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam . And that is prescribed duty. You classify yourself—either as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or a vaiśya —by quality, not by caste or by whims, no. Actually by qualification. Then you engage yourself in that duty. That is niyataṁ karma tvam . Otherwise, jumping like monkeys, that is not karma . That is monkey's dance. It has no value. Wasting time. You should not waste time a single moment. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam . So make that. Don't waste your time. (pause) Prabhupāda: That's all right. She is child. What can be done? You cannot . . . Guest (2): Swāmījī, what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa says, you hear and do. Just like you are now acting, family conscious or country conscious or society conscious. The dog is also working as dog conscious. Monkey is working, monkey conscious. He is thinking, "I am monkey." You are thinking you are Indian. He is thinking he is American. He is thinking as . . . so on, so on, different consciousness. But when you act Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is your real dharma. Now we are working under different consciousness; therefore varieties. And when you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is oneness, perfection, to act according to the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). What Kṛṣṇa says, you act accordingly. You are acting . . . the Communists, they are acting Lenin consciousness. Is it not? Their god is Lenin. I have been in Moscow. Everywhere Lenin's picture, Lenin's book, and they are worshiping Lenin's tomb. That is Lenin consciousness. So similarly, you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Guest (5) (Indian man): Those who have become Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will see Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise where is consciousness, if you do not think of Kṛṣṇa? Just like these boys, they are always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, either chanting or reading book or selling book or writing book, preaching Kṛṣṇa, twenty*-four hours, taking Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , taking rest for working in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything in Kṛṣṇa, chanting always Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have no other business. Guest (6) (Indian man): What is the meaning of good citizen? Good citizen? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is spiritual vision. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme spirit, and if you remain Kṛṣṇa conscious, then spiritual vision. That is spiritual. Guest (6): Swāmījī, you have seen Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: What do you think? We are all rascals, blindly following? Do you think like that? Then why I have not seen? Why do you ask this? If we are acting for Kṛṣṇa, do you mean to say that we are following blindly? Do you think like that? What is your opinion? If we have not seen Kṛṣṇa, then how we are acting for Kṛṣṇa? Hmm? What is your idea? We are all fools, that without seeing the master we are acting? Do you think like that? Why don't you answer? This is foolish question. How one can serve a master without seeing the master? Is it a fact that without seeing the master one is serving? (aside) Find out this verse, sarvatra yo māṁ paśyati , mayi ca sarvaṁ paśyati , like that. Devotee (3): Sarvatra ? Prabhupāda: Yo māṁ paśyati . Or yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra . Find out. Yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra . Devotee (3): (devotees discuss finding verse) "For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me." Prabhupāda: Is there a purport? *Devotee (3): "A person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness certainly sees Lord Kṛṣṇa everywhere, and he sees everything in Kṛṣṇa. Such a person may appear to see all separate manifestations of the material nature, but in each and every instance he is conscious of Kṛṣṇa, knowing that everything is the manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Nothing can exist without Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the Lord of everything—this is the basic principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the development of love of Kṛṣṇa—a position transcendental even to material liberation. It is the stage beyond self*-realization at which the devotee becomes one with Kṛṣṇa in the sense that Kṛṣṇa becomes everything for the devotee, and the devotee becomes full in loving Kṛṣṇa. An intimate relationship between the Lord and the devotee then exists. In that stage, the living entity attains his immortality. Nor is the Personality of Godhead ever out of the sight of the devotee. To merge in Kṛṣṇa is spiritual annihilation. A devotee takes no such risk. It is stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā , premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (BS 5.38)." Prabhupāda: Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti . He sees every moment. *Devotee (3): " Yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya*-guṇa-svarūpam . . ." *Prabhupāda: Govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . Devotee (3): " 'I worship the primeval Lord Govinda, who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of Śyāmasundara situated within the heart of the devotee.' At this stage Lord Kṛṣṇa never disappears from the sight of the devotee, nor does the devotee ever lose sight of the Lord. In the case of a yogī who sees the Lord as Paramātmā within the heart, the same applies. Such a yogī turns into a pure devotee and cannot bear to live for a moment without seeing the Lord within himself." *Prabhupāda: You are seeing also Kṛṣṇa, but because you have no love, therefore you cannot appreciate how we are seeing. If you love some person you keep his photograph on the breast. Is it not? So you are seeing Kṛṣṇa in the temple, but because you have no love you think that, "I am not seeing Him." That is the defect. They are seeing Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why they have sacrificed everything for worshiping Kṛṣṇa, for dressing Kṛṣṇa, for feeding Kṛṣṇa? They are seeing Kṛṣṇa. They are not wasting their time. But you have no love for Kṛṣṇa. You're thinking that "They have not seen Kṛṣṇa. They are worshiping an idol." That is the difference. One who loves somebody, he keeps his picture on his chest. He does not—he throws it, same picture. It is question of love. Therefore it is said, premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu (BS 5.38). One who has developed that love and bhakti , he can see Kṛṣṇa at every moment. Otherwise it is not possible. And because you cannot see, you ask them also, "Can you see?" But the seeing process is different. We do not know the process; *therefore we are thinking that Kṛṣṇa cannot be seen. And one who knows the process, he sees every moment. Is it clear? You learn the process, you will see Kṛṣṇa every moment. Therefore this word is used, premāñjana*-cchurita . By the eye ointment of love you have to smear your eyes; *then you'll be able to see Kṛṣṇa. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). Find out this verse. Yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ. When one's eyes is covered by the yoga-māyā he cannot see, see Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (3): Prabhupāda: Mūḍho 'yaṁ na abhijānāti : "Those who are rascals, they cannot see." Mūḍho 'yaṁ na abhijānāti . So one has to become interested how to see Kṛṣṇa. Guest (7) (Indian man): Satya Sai Baba says . . . Prabhupāda: Satya Sai Baba is not authority. Guest (7): No, no, I don't accept. Prabhupāda: Then why you quote him? We are not prepared to hear his words. Guest (7): Kindly clear up my doubt. Prabhupāda: No . . . that is another thing. That is another thing. Guest (7): All the miracles only just to increase confidence and all this . . . Prabhupāda: Why . . .? Magic is magic. That is another thing. That is not knowledge. Guest (7): Suppose if I want to talk here Kṛṣṇa consciousness among the masses . . . Prabhupāda: No, we have to push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, not by the ways and means by Sai Baba. That is foolishness. Guest (7): Can I attain such magical powers? Prabhupāda: So why? What is the use? We are not using any magical powers. Guest (7): Just to convince the people. Prabhupāda: Why this foolishness? We never . . . ask my disciples. I have never shown any magic. Why? Bhāgavata: That is a cheap business. Prabhupāda: That is cheating business. That is not required. It is meant for the foolish men. Guest (7): (indistinct) . . . Suri Bhagavantam, he was convinced by him just because of his magical powers. Prabhupāda: Who? Guest (7): Suri Bhagavantam is a scientist. He was convinced by him just because of his magical powers. Otherwise he could not influence me. One of my friends who was sitting there, he told me, "Satya Sai Baba, he won't come this side," he said. I said: "I'll make him to come this side." Prabhupāda: No, these are words. He has been challenged also by a group of educated men. So there are some fools, rascals. That is all . . . Guest (7): I have got belief in God, and so Narendra, my friend, was sitting by my side. "No, if I sit there only, he will go that way. I want to see him this side." Prabhupāda: Do you accept Sai Baba as God? Guest (7): No, no, not at all. Prabhupāda: Then why do you speak all this? That's . . . Guest (7): Not even greater than me. I don't think like that. He is also a human being like me. Guest (6): In the *Bhāgavatam* it is said that (indistinct Sanskrit) . . . (indistinct) Guest (7): And he could not do his siddhi before . . . (indistinct) . . . if it is real siddhi he could have showed all his powers even before . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Go to the standard of knowledge. Bhagavad*-gītā is accepted by the ācāryas —Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. So take that standard. Why do you go to the rascals and fools? Unless you are rascal and fool, you cannot go to the rascal and fool. Why? You take. If you want to know God, take the standard knowledge which is accepted by the . . . ācāryopāsanam . You take the knowledge through the ācāryas . Why from a rascal? That is not knowledge. Kṛṣṇa recommends how to take the knowledge. Eh? Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam (BG 13.8). Worship the ācārya . Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa guru m eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). (aside) Just read this. What is that? Devotee (3): Amānitvam adambhitvam . . . Prabhupāda: This is the process of knowledge. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāt (SB 11.17.27). If you go to ācārya , then you'll know the knowledge. What is this, go to a magician, a rascal? Magician is authority? There are so many magicians. So one should go for God to a magician? Ācāryopāsanam . Go to ācārya . That is recommended. Why should you go to the magician? That is your fault. You go to the wrong person, and you are cheated because you want to be cheated. You want to see magic, you don't want to see God. God is personally speaking, accepted God, not that by magical . . . and who can show greater magic than Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa, when He was seven years old, He lifted the Govardhana Hill. Can this rascal do that? Who can be greater magician than Kṛṣṇa? So we shall go to the greatest magician. Why shall I go to a teeny magician? That is our misfortune. If you want to see magic, see the magic, what Kṛṣṇa has done. This is our misfortune, that we go to a wrong person and misled. If you want magician, see Kṛṣṇa, how great magician He is. He married sixteen thousand wives. Is there any instance in the history of the world that one has sixteen thousand wives and maintaining each of them? And He expanded Himself in sixteen thousand husbands. Not that one wife is waiting: "When sixteen thousand . . . after sixteen thousand nights, He would come here." No. He is present everywhere. That is magic. Nārada was surprised, that "How Kṛṣṇa is maintaining sixteen thousand wives?" He saw in each and every home sixteen thousand establishment, and Kṛṣṇa is present everywhere. *So this is magic. Why don't you see Kṛṣṇa's magic? Why you are so much allured by a teeny magician? That is your misfortune. Poor heart, poor magic. See the real magic. If you want to see magic, see the Kṛṣṇa's magic. Kṛṣṇa, when He was three months old, the Pūtanā came to kill the child by poisoning, but she was killed. So in this way, from the very beginning of Kṛṣṇa's appearance, He's killing so many demons. So why don't you see this magic? If you want to see magic, see Kṛṣṇa's magic. Why the poor magic? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29): "I am the proprietor of all the lokas ." And each loka . . . suppose this loka , earthly planet. There are hundreds of gold mines. Why you are captivated with the chaṭāka gold? Why don't you be captivated by the person who has millions of gold mines by His wish? So we are poor, therefore we are captivated by poor magician. If we are intelligent, then we should be captivated by Kṛṣṇa's magic. That is intelligence. But we are poor; we are captivated by poor magic. That's all. Don't be poor. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.25). Don't remain mūḍhas . Try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then your life will be successful. That is Kṛṣṇa knowledge. Janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). Anyone who understands Kṛṣṇa's activities, then he becomes liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . Why don't you use your valuable time for understand Kṛṣṇa? Why you are captured by the poor rascal magicians? That means we are unfortunate. If we become captivated by teeny magician, that means we are unfortunate. Be captivated by the magic Kṛṣṇa has shown. That is the point. *Guest (8) (Indian man): Your Divine Grace, there is Mukunda*-mālā-stotra by Kulaśekhara Mahārāja. Are there any translations of that in the English and other languages? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (8) (Indian man): There are . . . (indistinct) . . . ślokas with you . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Prabhupāda: Yes. I think we have translated Kulaśekhara . . . it is not published, but I have translated. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, some of these devotees are required to . . . with your permission, I'd like to have some of the devotees come out for kīrtana and . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So? You can go to the ārati , kīrtana . Go. Jagadīśa: Just take whatever you need. Prabhupāda: You also go. (break) Devotee: . . . the argument that after saying: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa" and becoming free from the miseries of material life we remain still going home, still a devotee who comes through the heat, still a devotee who is dying just like an ordinary man. Prabhupāda: It is an argument like this, that you have gone to a physician for curing your disease; why you are not cured? This is nonsense question. It will take some time to be cured. Do you mean to say as soon as you go to the physician, you become cured? Do you think? Why don't you answer like that? A foolish man will say like that, that "You have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are now suffering?" Yes, suffering will be . . . kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So the assurance is there. You take the treatment. Why do you expect, immediately you go to the physician? A father gets the daughter married, expecting a child. Does it mean as soon as she's married, immediately child? And if a rascal says: "Oh, she is married, and there is no child?" Because he's a rascal. You must wait. Now she is married, it is sure she'll have child. That's a fact. But if the rascal wants, "Now my daughter is married. There is no child?" What is this nonsense? This question is like that, that "You have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are suffering?" You cannot answer this? Devotee: Yes. Also you give the example of the cat catching up the mouse and the cat . . . *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But first thing is that why do you want immediately effect? That is foolishness. The effect will be there. Therefore it is called dhairya . Utsāhād dhairyāt . Dhairya means patience. You act, God acting with patience. The result will be niścaya . The result will be there. These things are required. Utsāhād dhairyāt niścayāt tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt , sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati . So why you should have a foolish person—"Now I come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have become immediately everything. Give up everything"? Why do you think like this? The same example: the girl is married, now it is sure that she'll have child. Wait. Niścaya . When there is husband and wife there will be child. There is no doubt about it, but wait. Why do you expect immediately child on the day of marriage? This is foolishness. So you should answer these rascals like that. "You cannot expect immediately. But we are on the path. We have just entered." One enters into the school. Does it mean in one year or six months he becomes M.A.? He has to wait. But he has entered the school; there is expectation of his passing M.A. examination. But one who has not entered school, loitering in the street, he has no . . . he's hopeless. But this man has hope. Wait. The same example: if one girl is not married, then where is the question of child? Everything has to wait. Therefore it is said, utsāhād dhairyāt . One should have proper enthusiasm and patience. That is wanted. How one foolishly expects the result immediately? You sow the seed; you water it; it grows; then it becomes big tree; then pick the fruit; then eat. Immediately you cannot expect, immediately you have got. As soon as you get the seed, you have got the thing, undoubtedly. But you must give time the seed to fructify. That required. Guest (2): What exists between the planet Gokula and the . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: There is a planet who is full of cows, Gokula. That's it. Surabhīr abhipālayantam. Cintāmaṇi*-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam (BS 5.29). Kṛṣṇa is engaged there in tending cows, surabhi cows. That is Gokula. That planet is full of cows. Guest (2): What I mean to say is what exists between any two abodes, plenary expansions of Śrī Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: What exists? Guest (2): In the two abodes of the plenary expansion of Kṛṣṇa. What exists? *Prabhupāda: Plenary? Yes, Kṛṣṇa is expanding millions and millions forms. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (BS 5.33). That is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is expanded, and He's living in your heart, my heart, ant's heart, everyone's heart. These are expansions, Paramātmā. Guest (9) (Indian man): Sir, his point is what exists between the planets? Guest (2): This intervening medium. Prabhupāda: So you do not know the outer space? Outer space? The space is there. Just this planet, sun planet, there is space between. You do not know this? Eh? Guest (2): Do you mean to say there is no space between His planets? Prabhupāda: I mean to say . . . now you mean to say also. You do not know there is space difference between one planet to another? Guest (2): Unless it is bounded by space. Prabhupāda: So whatever it may be, there is difference. Just like you are existing, I am existing. There is space. So what is the difficulty? Guest (2): No, but actually it is beyond space and time. Transcendental. Guest (9): Spiritual planets, he means to say. Guest (2): They are beyond space. Guest (4): They are beyond time and space. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what does he mean? What does he mean? Guest (10): What is your point? *Prabhupāda: The point is that . . . you can explain in this way, that goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma*-bhūtaḥ (BS 5.37). Kṛṣṇa is in the Goloka planet, which is far, far away from our planet, but still He is everywhere. That is the difference. That you cannot imagine. In our material knowledge you cannot imagine that. But that is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati , tad aham aśnāmi (BG 9.26): "Anyone offering Me in devotion patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam , I eat." Now, Kṛṣṇa is living far, far away in the Goloka planet. How He can eat? That is your imagining. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, I do." That is Kṛṣṇa. Although He is far, far away, He is within your heart. That you cannot imagine, how it is possible. That is your material knowledge. But you have to accept from the statement of śāstra that although He is far, far away—within your heart. Aṇḍāntara-stha-para . . . He is within the atom also. So that you cannot imagine. That requires a different knowledge, Vedic knowledge. The material knowledge will not help you, but you cannot imagine. You have to accept Vedic knowledge. What is stated in the Vedas , that you have to accept. That's all. Otherwise there is no possibility. Therefore to understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's activities, you have to learn from Kṛṣṇa. That is Bhagavad-gītā . You cannot manufacture your knowledge. That is not . . . because you are defective—your senses are imperfect—so whatever knowledge you get through your senses, that is all imperfect. You cannot get perfect knowledge by your imperfect senses. That is not possible. Therefore the Vedic injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to learn that transcendental science you have to approach a guru who knows it. This is a different phase of knowledge. By your material calculation it will be difficult. The same thing, Kṛṣṇa says, aśnāmi : "I eat." So Kṛṣṇa is far, far away. How does He eat? Guest (2): It is said there that holy planets exist the . . . Prabhupāda: Who says? Who says? Who is the sayer? An imperfect person, that's all. Guest (2): No, it is in the *Bhāgavatam* . That's what I am saying. Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that? Guest (2): That holy planets exist between the lotus stem that's sprouting from navel of Kṛṣṇa. But there are many planets, millions of planets . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is all explained there. Yasyaika*-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (BS 5.48). Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya . The Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing, and with the breathing innumerable planets are coming, brahmāṇḍas are coming out. Yasya eka niśvasita-kālam atha avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ. Jagad-aṇḍa means universe, and jagad-aṇḍa-nāthaḥ means Brahmā. Millions of Brahmās living within the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. So we have to accept this Vedic knowledge. You cannot compare with your limited knowledge. That is not . . . Guest (4): His argument is that everything is bound by space. Prabhupāda: Yes, space is there. Guest (4): No, it's in the pits of the . . . Prabhupāda: Space. Space grows, Brahman. Bṛhatvād bṛhannatvāt . Brahman means the greatest. The space is considered to be the greatest. So it is not only greatest but it is expanding more and more. It is becoming greater and greater. Just like some children, they made some foam, soap. It becomes bigger, bigger, bigger. It is like that. It comes from the breathing period, but as soon as come out it becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. That is bṛhatvād bṛhannatvāt: Brahman, the greatest. A small seed of banyan tree, very small, you cannot . . . it becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, and so big tree with the leaves. You see daily how it is coming. Can you make such seed, you scientist? Can you make? Then? Why do you compare your poor knowledge with Kṛṣṇa's knowledge? That is your poor fund of knowledge. You are thinking that, "Kṛṣṇa may be like me." You can just compare the small banyan tree seed, just like a mustard seed, and it contains such a big tree; not only big tree, millions of seeds also, containing another millions of big trees. Can you make such seed? Hmm? You scientists, can you make? You tell me. Can you prepare that seed? Then what you are scientist? See Kṛṣṇa's science. Don't compare yourself with Kṛṣṇa's science even. Guest (2): No, one thing, if you say Goloka is infinite, we should be existing within Gokula. How is it that we are without Gokula? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are within Kṛṣṇa—therefore you are within Gokula. Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa is within us. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And Kṛṣṇa is without. That is Kṛṣṇa, antar bahiḥ . Antar bahiḥ . Kuntī says in her prayers that "Kṛṣṇa, You are antar bahiḥ . Still, people cannot understand. You are . . . without, You are existing, and within, You are . . . still, they are so rascal, they cannot understand." Antar bahiḥ . Kṛṣṇa is without, Kṛṣṇa is within, but they cannot see. That is their misfortune. Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35). Kṛṣṇa is within the paramāṇu , atom. Can you find out Kṛṣṇa? He says, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd . . . (BG 18.61). He is within your heart. Can you find out? Then where is your science? It is already indicated that He is here. Find out. How you can find out? The dimension of the soul is given, one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. The tip of the hair, you divide into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the dimension of the soul. How can you find out? Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīvo bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ (CC Madhya 19.140). Everything is written there. Now you find out the measurement. You cannot find out measurement of the tip of the hair. And you have to divide into ten thousand parts. Then the measurement of the soul will come. So how can you do it? But they are described in the śāstra . So go and see ārati . (end) *Ānandamaya: . . . the greatest program in this life is birth, old age, disease and death. And Bhagavad*-gītā gives the remedy for . . . Prabhupāda: This is good. If you want to stop this repetition of birth, death, old age and disease, then you must take the way of life spoken by . . . (break) Ānandamaya: . . . seem to be . . . Prabhupāda: Nobody is in healthy condition. (devotee offers obeisances) (break) *Ānandamaya: Just like a medicine. We may understand it. For myself, I can tell. I study Bhagavad*-gītā and I understand it, but I find so much difficulty to applicate it to the life of every day because . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . everything is difficult, but . . . why "but"? (pause) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . a physician, to purchase the medicine, to drink the medicine, that is also difficult, but we have to do that. *Guest (1) (Indian man): Bhagavad*-gītā gives the way to go back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Guest (1): Bhagavad*-gītā gives the way to go back to Godhead. Otherwise one has to suffer continuously. Prabhupāda: Yes, this material world, birth after birth. One birth, suffering, then again die, again another birth, again suffering. But the people are kept in ignorance. They do not know how the soul is transmigrating. (aside) Aiye. Betiye. (Come and sit.) From . . . ask them to sit down properly. Why don't you . . . is there any seat, proper? So you . . . Ye to sub halka hai. (This is all right.) What was the topic? What was going on, the topic? Ānandamaya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning we went to this engagement. There was the inauguration of the Vivekananda Society Home, so we went there on saṅkīrtana because we were invited by them. And one svāmī spoke, and he said service to mankind was also service to God. And at the end he also said that Vivekananda used to say that for the housewife, that the cooking pot was becoming God, had become God, had become a God. Prabhupāda: And people applauded. This is foolishness. They do not know how to act. Just like if you pour water on the tree, then it is accepted that you are pouring water on the tree. But that is not the process. The process is to pour water on the root of the tree. Practically we . . . you can make an experiment. Just like here is a tree. You don't pour water on the root but pour water on the leaves. Then it will dry in due course of time. It will not be effective. But if you pour water on the root, the water will go everywhere. So the whole thing is just like a tree. God is the origin of everything. He is the root. Aham ādir hi devānām ( BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Therefore He is the root. So if you pour water in the root, then the water is distributed everywhere. But if you pour water on the leaves, on the twigs, on the fruits, it will take time and it will not be successful. *So one who is not in awareness of the laws of nature, they commit this mistake. We can say that pouring water on the leaves is also pouring water on the tree—by serving human being you can serve the Supreme Lord. But that is not the way. Another example is that if you supply food to the stomach, then the share is partaken by all the parts of the body. But if you supply food to the part of the body, it is not shared by other part of the body. They are opening hospital for men, human being, but what about the animals? They are also part and parcel of God. They are killing them. So they have no realization of God. God says, sarva*-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4). Suppose I have got several sons. If you take care of my one son and you neglect others I will not be happy, naturally. But if you take care of all my sons, then I'll be happy. For a father there is no such distinction that, "My particular son should be taken care of and other should be neglected or they should be killed." That is not father's view. So if God is the father of all living entities, if you take simply care of the human being, then what of the others? There are so many fallacies in this argument, that by taking care of the human being you worship God. There are so many fallacies. Hmm? Is it not? So you have to put this argument that, "By serving human society is to serve God, that is not fact." That may be partially, it is not complete. Ānandamaya: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, so he talked about all these things . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I cannot hear. Ānandamaya: He didn't talk once about Kṛṣṇa. He didn't mention once the name of Kṛṣṇa, and he didn't say anything about . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the root of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). So He is the root. So you pour water in the root. Just like we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. So because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, does it mean that we are not taking care of the human being? That is automatically coming. But those who are taking care of the human society only, social work, political work, they do not know even what Kṛṣṇa. Missing. That is the difference. Because we are taking of Kṛṣṇa, we have come to the human society. We are teaching them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, spiritual knowledge. That is automatically. We are feeding them, giving them prasādam . That is included. But those who are opening hospitals for human being, they are taking the poor animals to the slaughterhouse, maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. That means foolishness. Kṛṣṇa will not be happy that one son you take care by opening hospital and another son you go, you send him to the slaughterhouse. This is foolishness. Never. God will never be happy. The same example: if the father has got both children—you take care one of them and others you kill them—will the father be happy? So that is not the way of making the supreme father, God, happy. That is not the way. That is foolish way. Rather, displeasing the father. That is not a very good philosophy. Why you should make distinction? He claims: *Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7): "Every living entity is My part and parcel. Every living entity is begotten by Me. I am the father." So how you can make discrimination from one son to another? That is foolishness. You cannot expect by pleasing one son the father will be happy. But if you bring something to the father and pay him, or some food, "Sir, it is for your sons," then he'll be pleased. He'll distribute the foodstuff to his sons. But if you take care one of the sons and don't take care of the other son, the father will never please. Very . . . that is not the way of pleasing the father. That is foolishness. You may say that, "I am taking care of the best son," but to a father, either the best son or the lowest son, the same. Father does not make any . . . "Because this is best son, he should be satisfied and the worst sons should be neglect." Father does not make. Father will like better that, "You take care of my worst son first." And besides that, to take care of the human society, it is also bogus. Nobody can take care. There are so many problems in the human society, how you can take care? But the real problem is—that is for everyone— janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . Either he is animal, or human being, or demigod, or big man, or small man, or rich man, or poor man, a learned man, foolish man—these problems are there, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . So if you take care of these problems, how to save them, all of them, from these four problems, that is real service. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Otherwise temporary—"I am hungry. You give me some relief"—but that relief is temporary. I'll become again hungry. And if I come to you twice, thrice, you'll be disgusted. Neither you can. There are so many hungry men. But if with a view to solve his all problems of life, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi , if you take care of him, that is the best service. *Ānandamaya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, also Lord Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā at the end that "One who surrenders unto Me, he will be delivered from all material reactions and go to . . . (indistinct) . . ." But it is also said that some persons, they are more inclined to surrender than others. Prabhupāda: Yes. You should surrender, you should request others to surrender. That is service. Ānandamaya: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it because of their karma, past activity, that they . . . *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, one can immediately surrender if he likes. The background has nothing to do. Even the background is sinful, Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66): "I shall save you from reaction of sinful life." Then there is no consideration of their background. You simply surrender. Then it will be solved, everything. Ānandamaya: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, has anyone got the same ability to surrender? Because . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone has got. If I say: "You surrender," you just . . . what is . . . if you disagree, that is another. Otherwise you can surrender immediately. Where is the difficulty? Ānandamaya: So it's just by our personal whim that we can surrender. Prabhupāda: Anyone can surrender immediately. There is no difficulty. But if he does not, then nobody can induce him. Otherwise, if he likes, he can surrender immediately. And He said, voluntary. Kṛṣṇa does not force. If He would have forced, then He would not say: "You surrender." No, it is your will. If you like, you surrender. If I say: "You do this," that is not force. If you like, you can do it. That is your interest. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63): "Whatever you like, you do that. But I give you the right instruction, that if you surrender, you'll be happy." That is the greatest service. If you teach people how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the greatest service. That will solve his all problems. (aside) . . . (indistinct) . . . has . . . that's all. Bring water. If you don't surrender, then go on suffering. That's all. That is your business. You should surrender. Guest (2) (Indian man): I have got some doubt. Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (2): If we are all children of Lord Kṛṣṇa—all the living beings are a part of Kṛṣṇa—in that case childrens in thousands and hundreds who are killed every day . . . Prabhupāda: That is created by you, that you may become the sons of one father, but every one of you has got different tendency. Guest (2): But I can't see how . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, just try to understand that we are all sons of Kṛṣṇa. That's nice. (aside) No, there is another one. Devotee: Of brass? Prabhupāda: It is silver. You go. All right. A father has got five sons. Some of them are very learned; some of them foolish. Why? Does the father like that "The some of my sons should be rascals, and others should be very nice"? Does the father like it? Then why he becomes? Hmm? Guest (2): If one becomes . . . Prabhupāda: Purva janma para janma. (Reincarnation, rebirth.) That we say. Consider. But these varieties are there, so how you can check it? Cause may be different. I have seen while I was in Allahabad one big barrister's sons. One became barrister; another became ekala . You know ekala ? Ekala driver. So the father did not like that, "One of my sons should become ekala , and other son should be like me, barrister," but I have seen. And there are many instances. Father does not want that, "My son should be vagabond, useless," but sometimes they become by their own activities. That independence everyone has got. So that is not father's creation. Your point was "Why God has created like that?" That is foolishness. God says that, "You surrender." But you do not surrender. That is your foolishness. Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . must be punished. *Prabhupāda: Eh? Naturally. Suppose if there is some infectious disease, the doctor says: "Don't go there." And if you go there, you'll be infected. You'll suffer. How the doctor can protect you? Doctor's duty is to warn you not to go to that area, "It is now infected with smallpox." But in spite of doctor's instruction, if you go there and if you infect that disease and suffer, then it is your fault. When a man is hanged by the judgment of the court, do you think that the high*-court judge is inimical to that person? He's giving judgment to other persons that, "This one must make one lakh of rupees from that person." And next judgment, "This man must be hanged." Does it mean the high-court judge is partial? He's simply giving judgment on the merit of the particular case. So there is no argument that, "Why God has created so many varieties?" God has not created; *you have created. "Man is the architect of his own fortune." Fortune and misfortune you have created. So we have to suffer or so*-called enjoy. There is no enjoyment here. It is simply suffering. But because you are under māyā , you are thinking suffering as enjoying. Just like a hog is eating stool. Other man is becoming: "Very abominable! Oh, what nasty thing he is . . ." But he is enjoying. He is thinking, "I am enjoying the best food." I have seen in aeroplane. One Indian gentleman, he was eating the intestine of the hog. So it was horrible for me, but he was eating very nice. *So in this way the world is going on. "One man's food is another man's poison." So similarly, we are creating our next birth according to our desire. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). According to the infection of the different modes of material nature, we are creating good or bad body next life. The laws of nature is unknown to the foolish society. They are thinking, "This life is everything. Misled, they do not know the aim of life. That is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind leader is leading other blind men. This is going on. And when we present the real solution, they say it is brainwash. Now, against our movement there is propaganda in USA, charging that "He has brainwashed them." (aside) You can come here. Aage badhiye. (Move forward.) "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." This is our position. When we speak all these things, they say it is brainwashing movement. Actually it is brainwashing movement because we are dissipating all kinds of misunderstanding, values of life. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam . It is not brainwashing; *it is heart*-washing. Our heart is stacked with so many dirty things, so we are trying to wash it. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam (CC Antya 20.12). And that is our movement. We are trying to cleanse the heart so that he can understand himself. One can understand his real position and then do the needful, and life becomes successful. Guest (3) (Indian man): Where is soul? Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Jagad*-guru : He is asking where is the soul. Prabhupāda: Can you see? So soul is within the heart. When the soul goes away, you cannot explain what happened. You say: "Heart failure." So why the heart failure? The nerves and the bones and the muscle and the blood, everything is there, and still, you say that, "It stopped. Heart failure." So just like machine is running, but somehow or other stopped, but you do not know what is the cause of stopping. The cause is that the heart, when it goes away, then the machine stops. Guest (3): God is within the soul also. *Prabhupāda: Yes. God is along with you. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is there. *Guest (4) (Indian man): Swāmījī, in Bhagavad*-gītā it is telling karma also and surrendering also. Now, how it is possible? In karma-kāṇḍa . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Karma , if you do . . . just like we are preaching so many people to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, but they will not do it. Do you think our this instruction that, "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," is taken by everyone? Do you think? Suppose you are all here. We are preaching the same thing, that, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." But these boys, they have surrendered, but you have not surrendered. Guest (4): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand. It is . . . the free will is there. If you don't surrender, then, Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ : "Instead of sitting idly, better you do your prescribed duty." So prescribed duty is cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to guṇa and karma , there are four divisions. So if you are in the first-class division as brāhmaṇa , you do the brāhmaṇa's work. If you are a kṣatriya , you do the kṣatriya's . . . niyataṁ kuru karma . What is you are destined, you do that nicely. Don't be idle. That is Kṛṣṇa's in . . . but if you are intelligent, then Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). But you are foolish, then you be engaged in your prescribed duty. And if you are intelligent, then "You give up everything; simply surrender unto Me." That depends on you. If you are intelligent, you'll surrender; if you are not intelligent, be engaged in your karma . Kṛṣṇa is giving all facilities. Now it is up to you to make your selection. But He says, niyataṁ kuru karma . (aside) Find out this verse. Devotee (3): Should I read the translation? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): "Perform your prescribed duties, for action is better than inaction." Prabhupāda: But if you have no prescribed duties, then you are animal. Just like monkey. What is his duty? He is jumping simply and creating havoc. Monkey is very busy. Wherever he'll sit down, he'll " gat , gat , gat , gat ," like this. That's all. Very busy. But what is the meaning of his business? Simply creating disturbance Therefore it is said, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam : "Act on your prescribed duties." Don't act like a monkey. That is better. What is that? Devotee (3): "For action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." Prabhupāda: Then? Purport? *Devotee (3): Purport: "There are many pseudo*-meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set for kṣatriyas . Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya . Such activities gradually cleanse the heart . . ." Prabhupāda: You are following? Go on. *Devotee (3): ". . . and free him from material contamination. So*-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others." *Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad*-gītā is giving you gradual process to the highest point, and highest point is to surrender. That is the most confidential part of knowledge. Sarva-guhyatamam. Guhyād guhyataram . Find out this verse, Eighteenth Chapter. He has given the instruction of karma-yoga , jñāna , everything, but the most confidential instruction is this. Devotee (3): Translation: "Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit." Prabhupāda: Is there any purport? *Devotee (3): "The Lord has given Arjuna confidential knowledge of the Supersoul within everyone's heart, and now He is giving the most confidential part of this knowledge: just surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At the end of the Ninth Chapter He has said, 'Just always think of Me.' The same instruction is repeated here to stress the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . This essence is not understood by a common man, but by one who is actually very dear to Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. This is the most important instruction in all Vedic literature. What Kṛṣṇa is saying in this connection is the most essential part of knowledge, and it should be carried out not only by Arjuna but by all living entities." Prabhupāda: Guhyatamam , most confidential. This is not for all, but for the advanced person and who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, He says, iṣṭo 'si me . . .? What is that next? Iṣṭo 'si ? Devotee (3): Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi . Prabhupāda: Dṛḍham ? Devotee (3): Dṛḍham . Prabhupāda: No. What is the spelling? Devotee (3): Dṛḍham . Prabhupāda: No, no. The word, separate word? Iṣṭo 'si ? *Devotee (3): D*-r-d-h-a-m . Prabhupāda: Hitam . Devotee (3): Dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi te hitam . *Prabhupāda: Te hitam . So it is not for all. One who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee, for him, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man—"You do your prescribed duty." But they have no prescribed duty even. The people of this age, they are so fallen, they have no prescribed duty. They are simply engaged like animals—eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That's all. Animal is engaged like that, eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. So we are being educated only like animals. We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , vaiśya , utmost śūdra , like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping and sex and defense. Therefore śāstra says, nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). You should not live the life of a hog, viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ-bhujām means the stool-eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong, then "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life. *So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyataṁ kuru karma tvam . You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), and then your prescribed duties are there. If you want to become a brāhmaṇa , then śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam , jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). If you want to be kṣatriya, tejaḥ . . . what is that? Tejaḥ śauryaṁ yujyaṁ yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam . If you want to be a vaiśya , kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). And if you want to remain a śūdra , paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam . And that is prescribed duty. You classify yourself—either as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or a vaiśya —by quality, not by caste or by whims, no. Actually by qualification. Then you engage yourself in that duty. That is niyataṁ karma tvam . Otherwise, jumping like monkeys, that is not karma . That is monkey's dance. It has no value. Wasting time. You should not waste time a single moment. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam . So make that. Don't waste your time. (pause) Prabhupāda: That's all right. She is child. What can be done? You cannot . . . Guest (2): Swāmījī, what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa says, you hear and do. Just like you are now acting, family conscious or country conscious or society conscious. The dog is also working as dog conscious. Monkey is working, monkey conscious. He is thinking, "I am monkey." You are thinking you are Indian. He is thinking he is American. He is thinking as . . . so on, so on, different consciousness. But when you act Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is your real dharma. Now we are working under different consciousness; therefore varieties. And when you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is oneness, perfection, to act according to the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). What Kṛṣṇa says, you act accordingly. You are acting . . . the Communists, they are acting Lenin consciousness. Is it not? Their god is Lenin. I have been in Moscow. Everywhere Lenin's picture, Lenin's book, and they are worshiping Lenin's tomb. That is Lenin consciousness. So similarly, you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Guest (5) (Indian man): Those who have become Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will see Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise where is consciousness, if you do not think of Kṛṣṇa? Just like these boys, they are always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, either chanting or reading book or selling book or writing book, preaching Kṛṣṇa, twenty*-four hours, taking Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , taking rest for working in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything in Kṛṣṇa, chanting always Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have no other business. Guest (6) (Indian man): What is the meaning of good citizen? Good citizen? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is spiritual vision. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme spirit, and if you remain Kṛṣṇa conscious, then spiritual vision. That is spiritual. Guest (6): Swāmījī, you have seen Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: What do you think? We are all rascals, blindly following? Do you think like that? Then why I have not seen? Why do you ask this? If we are acting for Kṛṣṇa, do you mean to say that we are following blindly? Do you think like that? What is your opinion? If we have not seen Kṛṣṇa, then how we are acting for Kṛṣṇa? Hmm? What is your idea? We are all fools, that without seeing the master we are acting? Do you think like that? Why don't you answer? This is foolish question. How one can serve a master without seeing the master? Is it a fact that without seeing the master one is serving? (aside) Find out this verse, sarvatra yo māṁ paśyati , mayi ca sarvaṁ paśyati , like that. Devotee (3): Sarvatra ? Prabhupāda: Yo māṁ paśyati . Or yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra . Find out. Yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra . Devotee (3): (devotees discuss finding verse) "For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me." Prabhupāda: Is there a purport? *Devotee (3): "A person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness certainly sees Lord Kṛṣṇa everywhere, and he sees everything in Kṛṣṇa. Such a person may appear to see all separate manifestations of the material nature, but in each and every instance he is conscious of Kṛṣṇa, knowing that everything is the manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Nothing can exist without Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the Lord of everything—this is the basic principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the development of love of Kṛṣṇa—a position transcendental even to material liberation. It is the stage beyond self*-realization at which the devotee becomes one with Kṛṣṇa in the sense that Kṛṣṇa becomes everything for the devotee, and the devotee becomes full in loving Kṛṣṇa. An intimate relationship between the Lord and the devotee then exists. In that stage, the living entity attains his immortality. Nor is the Personality of Godhead ever out of the sight of the devotee. To merge in Kṛṣṇa is spiritual annihilation. A devotee takes no such risk. It is stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā , premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (BS 5.38)." Prabhupāda: Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti . He sees every moment. *Devotee (3): " Yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya*-guṇa-svarūpam . . ." *Prabhupāda: Govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . Devotee (3): " 'I worship the primeval Lord Govinda, who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of Śyāmasundara situated within the heart of the devotee.' At this stage Lord Kṛṣṇa never disappears from the sight of the devotee, nor does the devotee ever lose sight of the Lord. In the case of a yogī who sees the Lord as Paramātmā within the heart, the same applies. Such a yogī turns into a pure devotee and cannot bear to live for a moment without seeing the Lord within himself." *Prabhupāda: You are seeing also Kṛṣṇa, but because you have no love, therefore you cannot appreciate how we are seeing. If you love some person you keep his photograph on the breast. Is it not? So you are seeing Kṛṣṇa in the temple, but because you have no love you think that, "I am not seeing Him." That is the defect. They are seeing Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why they have sacrificed everything for worshiping Kṛṣṇa, for dressing Kṛṣṇa, for feeding Kṛṣṇa? They are seeing Kṛṣṇa. They are not wasting their time. But you have no love for Kṛṣṇa. You're thinking that "They have not seen Kṛṣṇa. They are worshiping an idol." That is the difference. One who loves somebody, he keeps his picture on his chest. He does not—he throws it, same picture. It is question of love. Therefore it is said, premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu (BS 5.38). One who has developed that love and bhakti , he can see Kṛṣṇa at every moment. Otherwise it is not possible. And because you cannot see, you ask them also, "Can you see?" But the seeing process is different. We do not know the process; *therefore we are thinking that Kṛṣṇa cannot be seen. And one who knows the process, he sees every moment. Is it clear? You learn the process, you will see Kṛṣṇa every moment. Therefore this word is used, premāñjana*-cchurita . By the eye ointment of love you have to smear your eyes; *then you'll be able to see Kṛṣṇa. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). Find out this verse. Yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ. When one's eyes is covered by the yoga-māyā he cannot see, see Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (3): Prabhupāda: Mūḍho 'yaṁ na abhijānāti : "Those who are rascals, they cannot see." Mūḍho 'yaṁ na abhijānāti . So one has to become interested how to see Kṛṣṇa. Guest (7) (Indian man): Satya Sai Baba says . . . Prabhupāda: Satya Sai Baba is not authority. Guest (7): No, no, I don't accept. Prabhupāda: Then why you quote him? We are not prepared to hear his words. Guest (7): Kindly clear up my doubt. Prabhupāda: No . . . that is another thing. That is another thing. Guest (7): All the miracles only just to increase confidence and all this . . . Prabhupāda: Why . . .? Magic is magic. That is another thing. That is not knowledge. Guest (7): Suppose if I want to talk here Kṛṣṇa consciousness among the masses . . . Prabhupāda: No, we have to push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, not by the ways and means by Sai Baba. That is foolishness. Guest (7): Can I attain such magical powers? Prabhupāda: So why? What is the use? We are not using any magical powers. Guest (7): Just to convince the people. Prabhupāda: Why this foolishness? We never . . . ask my disciples. I have never shown any magic. Why? Bhāgavata: That is a cheap business. Prabhupāda: That is cheating business. That is not required. It is meant for the foolish men. Guest (7): (indistinct) . . . Suri Bhagavantam, he was convinced by him just because of his magical powers. Prabhupāda: Who? Guest (7): Suri Bhagavantam is a scientist. He was convinced by him just because of his magical powers. Otherwise he could not influence me. One of my friends who was sitting there, he told me, "Satya Sai Baba, he won't come this side," he said. I said: "I'll make him to come this side." Prabhupāda: No, these are words. He has been challenged also by a group of educated men. So there are some fools, rascals. That is all . . . Guest (7): I have got belief in God, and so Narendra, my friend, was sitting by my side. "No, if I sit there only, he will go that way. I want to see him this side." Prabhupāda: Do you accept Sai Baba as God? Guest (7): No, no, not at all. Prabhupāda: Then why do you speak all this? That's . . . Guest (7): Not even greater than me. I don't think like that. He is also a human being like me. Guest (6): In the *Bhāgavatam* it is said that (indistinct Sanskrit) . . . (indistinct) Guest (7): And he could not do his siddhi before . . . (indistinct) . . . if it is real siddhi he could have showed all his powers even before . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Go to the standard of knowledge. Bhagavad*-gītā is accepted by the ācāryas —Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. So take that standard. Why do you go to the rascals and fools? Unless you are rascal and fool, you cannot go to the rascal and fool. Why? You take. If you want to know God, take the standard knowledge which is accepted by the . . . ācāryopāsanam . You take the knowledge through the ācāryas . Why from a rascal? That is not knowledge. Kṛṣṇa recommends how to take the knowledge. Eh? Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam (BG 13.8). Worship the ācārya . Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa guru m eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). (aside) Just read this. What is that? Devotee (3): Amānitvam adambhitvam . . . Prabhupāda: This is the process of knowledge. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāt (SB 11.17.27). If you go to ācārya , then you'll know the knowledge. What is this, go to a magician, a rascal? Magician is authority? There are so many magicians. So one should go for God to a magician? Ācāryopāsanam . Go to ācārya . That is recommended. Why should you go to the magician? That is your fault. You go to the wrong person, and you are cheated because you want to be cheated. You want to see magic, you don't want to see God. God is personally speaking, accepted God, not that by magical . . . and who can show greater magic than Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa, when He was seven years old, He lifted the Govardhana Hill. Can this rascal do that? Who can be greater magician than Kṛṣṇa? So we shall go to the greatest magician. Why shall I go to a teeny magician? That is our misfortune. If you want to see magic, see the magic, what Kṛṣṇa has done. This is our misfortune, that we go to a wrong person and misled. If you want magician, see Kṛṣṇa, how great magician He is. He married sixteen thousand wives. Is there any instance in the history of the world that one has sixteen thousand wives and maintaining each of them? And He expanded Himself in sixteen thousand husbands. Not that one wife is waiting: "When sixteen thousand . . . after sixteen thousand nights, He would come here." No. He is present everywhere. That is magic. Nārada was surprised, that "How Kṛṣṇa is maintaining sixteen thousand wives?" He saw in each and every home sixteen thousand establishment, and Kṛṣṇa is present everywhere. *So this is magic. Why don't you see Kṛṣṇa's magic? Why you are so much allured by a teeny magician? That is your misfortune. Poor heart, poor magic. See the real magic. If you want to see magic, see the Kṛṣṇa's magic. Kṛṣṇa, when He was three months old, the Pūtanā came to kill the child by poisoning, but she was killed. So in this way, from the very beginning of Kṛṣṇa's appearance, He's killing so many demons. So why don't you see this magic? If you want to see magic, see Kṛṣṇa's magic. Why the poor magic? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29): "I am the proprietor of all the lokas ." And each loka . . . suppose this loka , earthly planet. There are hundreds of gold mines. Why you are captivated with the chaṭāka gold? Why don't you be captivated by the person who has millions of gold mines by His wish? So we are poor, therefore we are captivated by poor magician. If we are intelligent, then we should be captivated by Kṛṣṇa's magic. That is intelligence. But we are poor; we are captivated by poor magic. That's all. Don't be poor. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.25). Don't remain mūḍhas . Try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then your life will be successful. That is Kṛṣṇa knowledge. Janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). Anyone who understands Kṛṣṇa's activities, then he becomes liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . Why don't you use your valuable time for understand Kṛṣṇa? Why you are captured by the poor rascal magicians? That means we are unfortunate. If we become captivated by teeny magician, that means we are unfortunate. Be captivated by the magic Kṛṣṇa has shown. That is the point. *Guest (8) (Indian man): Your Divine Grace, there is Mukunda*-mālā-stotra by Kulaśekhara Mahārāja. Are there any translations of that in the English and other languages? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (8) (Indian man): There are . . . (indistinct) . . . ślokas with you . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Prabhupāda: Yes. I think we have translated Kulaśekhara . . . it is not published, but I have translated. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, some of these devotees are required to . . . with your permission, I'd like to have some of the devotees come out for kīrtana and . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So? You can go to the ārati , kīrtana . Go. Jagadīśa: Just take whatever you need. Prabhupāda: You also go. (break) Devotee: . . . the argument that after saying: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa" and becoming free from the miseries of material life we remain still going home, still a devotee who comes through the heat, still a devotee who is dying just like an ordinary man. Prabhupāda: It is an argument like this, that you have gone to a physician for curing your disease; why you are not cured? This is nonsense question. It will take some time to be cured. Do you mean to say as soon as you go to the physician, you become cured? Do you think? Why don't you answer like that? A foolish man will say like that, that "You have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are now suffering?" Yes, suffering will be . . . kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So the assurance is there. You take the treatment. Why do you expect, immediately you go to the physician? A father gets the daughter married, expecting a child. Does it mean as soon as she's married, immediately child? And if a rascal says: "Oh, she is married, and there is no child?" Because he's a rascal. You must wait. Now she is married, it is sure she'll have child. That's a fact. But if the rascal wants, "Now my daughter is married. There is no child?" What is this nonsense? This question is like that, that "You have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are suffering?" You cannot answer this? Devotee: Yes. Also you give the example of the cat catching up the mouse and the cat . . . *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But first thing is that why do you want immediately effect? That is foolishness. The effect will be there. Therefore it is called dhairya . Utsāhād dhairyāt . Dhairya means patience. You act, God acting with patience. The result will be niścaya . The result will be there. These things are required. Utsāhād dhairyāt niścayāt tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt , sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati . So why you should have a foolish person—"Now I come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have become immediately everything. Give up everything"? Why do you think like this? The same example: the girl is married, now it is sure that she'll have child. Wait. Niścaya . When there is husband and wife there will be child. There is no doubt about it, but wait. Why do you expect immediately child on the day of marriage? This is foolishness. So you should answer these rascals like that. "You cannot expect immediately. But we are on the path. We have just entered." One enters into the school. Does it mean in one year or six months he becomes M.A.? He has to wait. But he has entered the school; there is expectation of his passing M.A. examination. But one who has not entered school, loitering in the street, he has no . . . he's hopeless. But this man has hope. Wait. The same example: if one girl is not married, then where is the question of child? Everything has to wait. Therefore it is said, utsāhād dhairyāt . One should have proper enthusiasm and patience. That is wanted. How one foolishly expects the result immediately? You sow the seed; you water it; it grows; then it becomes big tree; then pick the fruit; then eat. Immediately you cannot expect, immediately you have got. As soon as you get the seed, you have got the thing, undoubtedly. But you must give time the seed to fructify. That required. Guest (2): What exists between the planet Gokula and the . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: There is a planet who is full of cows, Gokula. That's it. Surabhīr abhipālayantam. Cintāmaṇi*-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam (BS 5.29). Kṛṣṇa is engaged there in tending cows, surabhi cows. That is Gokula. That planet is full of cows. Guest (2): What I mean to say is what exists between any two abodes, plenary expansions of Śrī Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: What exists? Guest (2): In the two abodes of the plenary expansion of Kṛṣṇa. What exists? *Prabhupāda: Plenary? Yes, Kṛṣṇa is expanding millions and millions forms. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (BS 5.33). That is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is expanded, and He's living in your heart, my heart, ant's heart, everyone's heart. These are expansions, Paramātmā. Guest (9) (Indian man): Sir, his point is what exists between the planets? Guest (2): This intervening medium. Prabhupāda: So you do not know the outer space? Outer space? The space is there. Just this planet, sun planet, there is space between. You do not know this? Eh? Guest (2): Do you mean to say there is no space between His planets? Prabhupāda: I mean to say . . . now you mean to say also. You do not know there is space difference between one planet to another? Guest (2): Unless it is bounded by space. Prabhupāda: So whatever it may be, there is difference. Just like you are existing, I am existing. There is space. So what is the difficulty? Guest (2): No, but actually it is beyond space and time. Transcendental. Guest (9): Spiritual planets, he means to say. Guest (2): They are beyond space. Guest (4): They are beyond time and space. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what does he mean? What does he mean? Guest (10): What is your point? *Prabhupāda: The point is that . . . you can explain in this way, that goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma*-bhūtaḥ (BS 5.37). Kṛṣṇa is in the Goloka planet, which is far, far away from our planet, but still He is everywhere. That is the difference. That you cannot imagine. In our material knowledge you cannot imagine that. But that is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati , tad aham aśnāmi (BG 9.26): "Anyone offering Me in devotion patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam , I eat." Now, Kṛṣṇa is living far, far away in the Goloka planet. How He can eat? That is your imagining. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, I do." That is Kṛṣṇa. Although He is far, far away, He is within your heart. That you cannot imagine, how it is possible. That is your material knowledge. But you have to accept from the statement of śāstra that although He is far, far away—within your heart. Aṇḍāntara-stha-para . . . He is within the atom also. So that you cannot imagine. That requires a different knowledge, Vedic knowledge. The material knowledge will not help you, but you cannot imagine. You have to accept Vedic knowledge. What is stated in the Vedas , that you have to accept. That's all. Otherwise there is no possibility. Therefore to understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's activities, you have to learn from Kṛṣṇa. That is Bhagavad-gītā . You cannot manufacture your knowledge. That is not . . . because you are defective—your senses are imperfect—so whatever knowledge you get through your senses, that is all imperfect. You cannot get perfect knowledge by your imperfect senses. That is not possible. Therefore the Vedic injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to learn that transcendental science you have to approach a guru who knows it. This is a different phase of knowledge. By your material calculation it will be difficult. The same thing, Kṛṣṇa says, aśnāmi : "I eat." So Kṛṣṇa is far, far away. How does He eat? Guest (2): It is said there that holy planets exist the . . . Prabhupāda: Who says? Who says? Who is the sayer? An imperfect person, that's all. Guest (2): No, it is in the *Bhāgavatam* . That's what I am saying. Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that? Guest (2): That holy planets exist between the lotus stem that's sprouting from navel of Kṛṣṇa. But there are many planets, millions of planets . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is all explained there. Yasyaika*-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (BS 5.48). Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya . The Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing, and with the breathing innumerable planets are coming, brahmāṇḍas are coming out. Yasya eka niśvasita-kālam atha avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ. Jagad-aṇḍa means universe, and jagad-aṇḍa-nāthaḥ means Brahmā. Millions of Brahmās living within the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. So we have to accept this Vedic knowledge. You cannot compare with your limited knowledge. That is not . . . Guest (4): His argument is that everything is bound by space. Prabhupāda: Yes, space is there. Guest (4): No, it's in the pits of the . . . Prabhupāda: Space. Space grows, Brahman. Bṛhatvād bṛhannatvāt . Brahman means the greatest. The space is considered to be the greatest. So it is not only greatest but it is expanding more and more. It is becoming greater and greater. Just like some children, they made some foam, soap. It becomes bigger, bigger, bigger. It is like that. It comes from the breathing period, but as soon as come out it becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. That is bṛhatvād bṛhannatvāt: Brahman, the greatest. A small seed of banyan tree, very small, you cannot . . . it becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, and so big tree with the leaves. You see daily how it is coming. Can you make such seed, you scientist? Can you make? Then? Why do you compare your poor knowledge with Kṛṣṇa's knowledge? That is your poor fund of knowledge. You are thinking that, "Kṛṣṇa may be like me." You can just compare the small banyan tree seed, just like a mustard seed, and it contains such a big tree; not only big tree, millions of seeds also, containing another millions of big trees. Can you make such seed? Hmm? You scientists, can you make? You tell me. Can you prepare that seed? Then what you are scientist? See Kṛṣṇa's science. Don't compare yourself with Kṛṣṇa's science even. Guest (2): No, one thing, if you say Goloka is infinite, we should be existing within Gokula. How is it that we are without Gokula? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are within Kṛṣṇa—therefore you are within Gokula. Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa is within us. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And Kṛṣṇa is without. That is Kṛṣṇa, antar bahiḥ . Antar bahiḥ . Kuntī says in her prayers that "Kṛṣṇa, You are antar bahiḥ . Still, people cannot understand. You are . . . without, You are existing, and within, You are . . . still, they are so rascal, they cannot understand." Antar bahiḥ . Kṛṣṇa is without, Kṛṣṇa is within, but they cannot see. That is their misfortune. Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35). Kṛṣṇa is within the paramāṇu , atom. Can you find out Kṛṣṇa? He says, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd . . . (BG 18.61). He is within your heart. Can you find out? Then where is your science? It is already indicated that He is here. Find out. How you can find out? The dimension of the soul is given, one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. The tip of the hair, you divide into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the dimension of the soul. How can you find out? Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīvo bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ (CC Madhya 19.140). Everything is written there. Now you find out the measurement. You cannot find out measurement of the tip of the hair. And you have to divide into ten thousand parts. Then the measurement of the soul will come. So how can you do it? But they are described in the śāstra . So go and see ārati . (end) Prabhupāda: There is no arrangement for producing vegetable? Mahāṁśa: We just finished one harvest, Prabhupāda, and now the second harvest is already in the ground. Prabhupāda: So what kind of harvest? You finish and then you have to wait for six months for the second one. Mahāṁśa: Now we are designing one plot for continuous . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm, so this . . . where is Tejiyas Mahārāja? So you immediately arrange for producing vegetables. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, I'm asking Tejiyas. Haṁsadūta: Here is Tejiyas, here. Prabhupāda: Oh, here he is. So, why don't you do that? Tejiyas: Yes. I'll make up the scheme today. It should be that you have continuous crop. You plant seeds one week . . . but again they have made the same mistake with these cauliflower and cabbage. Prabhupāda: Well, they mistake . . . you say, "They mistake." Who are "they"? You say you do mistake. Don't say "they." This is bureaucracy, "they." You are all "they." Anyway, whatever is done, immediately make arrangement. And this is one thing. And the other thing: I came here that there will be festival and prasādam distribution. Why this is not begun? Mahāṁśa: Till yesterday there was being marriages in the city. Now, from today, the paṇḍāls are free. Prabhupāda: Because there are marriages our program will be cancelled? Mahāṁśa: No, but the person who gives us the paṇḍāl . . . it's supposed to start today, Prabhupāda, their program. They have been advertising in the villages about the prasādam distribution this evening, so the stage and the śāmiyānā will be coming today and the pots are coming today. So we have all the grains and everything. We can start the prasādam distribution this evening. Prabhupāda: So you'll keep . . . come in charge. So do this also immediately. And the next is that Bhogilal wants to come here. So bring him immediately. What is the difficulty of that house? Mahāṁśa: All the plastering inside is finished now. Prabhupāda: Everything, whatever is finished . . . Mahāṁśa: Painting has to be done. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mahāṁśa: The toilets are working, all the connections are finished, and only thing is the painting has to be done today. Prabhupāda: So painting also can be . . . without painting, we can go there. What is the wrong problem? Mahāṁśa: It looks a little shabby. If we wait for one more day it will look much better. Prabhupāda: So one more day we shall wait, but tomorrow we must go there. Mahāṁśa: Yes, tomorrow we can go there. Prabhupāda: So arrange for bringing Bhogilal tomorrow. Mahāṁśa: Yes, tomorrow afternoon or evening we can arrange. Prabhupāda: No. Yes, so immediately arrange for that. He is very important man. If he comes, you can all mature consultation about this . . . (indistinct) . . . about managing. He is practically doing. He has one thousand acres of land. Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes, it's not a joke. Prabhupāda: And he is practical businessman. So immediately . . . and besides that, he is already sympathetic. He is becoming interested more. So he can do so many things for us. He is a very nice man. So he volunteered to come here. So bring him immediately. So arrange. From tomorrow we go there. If it is not finished, then he may be given that place. I am at here. I shall stay. Or he can be given this room, I can go there. In this way . . . because the doors are not yet fitted. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that's the main problem. Prabhupāda: But there are so many main problems. So at least in my side the doors are fitted. So I can go there, and he can stay here. Anyway, either there or here, arrange to bring him immediately. He will go away by the twelfth. So he may stay here at least for one week. Mahāṁśa: One week. Prabhupāda: Tell him like that. Mahāṁśa: Yes. And the cooking will be done by his men. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Because if he comes, his cook will also come. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. His cook and servant, yes. So make this arrangement so that everything should be inaugurated tomorrow, not more than that. So you have to purchase vegetable and then make it big, big scheme. (chuckles) Bambharambhe laghu*-kriyā . Ārambha , very big, and action, very little. And ask some of our devotees to collect all the gobars and bring here. I want gobar. There is so much gobars scattered here and there. Take one basket and two men may go and collect all of them, put it in the sunshine. So nowadays sunshine is so bright. You can have so many things exposed to sunshine. All vitamins. So you immediately make program for vegetable, fruits, flower, surrounding this, immediately. So how Bhogilal will be brought here? Mahāṁśa: In his car. Prabhupāda: In his car. So make arrangement. Either we both of us, we may stay there, or one here, one there. Mahāṁśa: And the secretaries can stay here. Prabhupāda: Secretaries, as they are staying. I think one can manage that. There is no difficulty. (break) So all the devotees here, they are all required there? Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then why . . . so the temple work is not suffering? Mahāṁśa: It is. Prabhupāda: Then why you are keeping so many devotees here? Mahāṁśa: The main problem now is that there were three pūjārīs , and one of them is here, and he doesn't want to go back to pūjārī work, so we have to find . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Mahāṁśa: He doesn't want to go back to do pūjārī work, so there's only two pūjārīs , and they were just complaining yesterday that it's very difficult to do so much Deity worship. Prabhupāda: So why? Why he does not want to go? Mahāṁśa: He wants to go traveling for a while. Prabhupāda: So that cannot be. So traveling means you have asked him to . . .? Haṁsadūta: No, I haven't asked him any . . . it's the same problem. Whenever I go somewhere there are always certain men, they want to go. Prabhupāda: No. Nobody can go without sanction. This is sense gratification, "I want to." This is not good. Jagadīśa: Actually, the temple right now is in lack of a full time manager. Mahāṁśa Mahārāja spends most of his time here, and I can see that the temple management is not going right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not very nice. So do you require . . .? But you also do not remain here. Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then you are not there; you are not here. Then where you are? Mahāṁśa: No, all these last, last two weeks I've been working on this house, and if I'm not here then . . . like yesterday I was not here, and the workers didn't work properly. Then I made them work in the night. When I came back, I saw that they have not . . . *Prabhupāda: So that means everywhere, if you are not there, then everything is gone to hell. Then what is this management? You cannot be everywhere. That is not . . . you are not Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānām ( BG 18.61). Mahāṁśa: I mean, the problem that came up in the temple, it was going on okay before, but then there was suddenly so many more devotees that came. Half of them were here, half of them were there, and they were moving around every day. So the temple managers were confused. They didn't know how much . . . how many devotees . . . Prabhupāda: No, temple . . . who is temple manager? Mahāṁśa: Ānandamaya is managing now. He's very good. He can do it nicely, but he was confused because there were devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Now there is no confusion. Immediately they can go, all the devotees. They are not required. What is the use? Jagadīśa: That temple is a big, big project. Ānandamaya is not competent to handle the whole thing. He doesn't have the respect of the other members, enough. And plus I don't see him taking charge anymore. If you ask him to get something done he says, "Well . . ." He always makes some excuse. This was my experience while we were there. Prabhupāda: Who is that man? Mahāṁśa: Ānandamaya. He has been here since four years, and he knows practically everybody in Hyderabad. He was working with me all the time. Prabhupāda: So then why does he not go there? Why he's here? Mahāṁśa: He's not here; he's there. Prabhupāda: Oh. So the devotees may go there. They have no business here to stay, so many. Why? They can return back. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Jagadīśa: They need a head, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: They need a head. Prabhupāda: A head means you have to train head. If you cut head, then how there will be head? Neither tail, neither head. Head means you have to train them, head. There is no need of so many men here. Why? Jagadīśa: Many of the men who are here are on Haṁsadūta's party. Prabhupāda: So, do they require here? Haṁsadūta: I sent all the men here because Mahāṁśa promised that there would be a program lined up, but there is no program. That's why they're just . . . now they all want to go, and if they can go I can send them. They are ready to go. They don't want to stay. Prabhupāda: So? Mahāṁśa: The problem is that the programs I didn't arrange, because the devotees were not regular in coming. I didn't know when they were all coming. So if I arrange a program, that means my men . . . Prabhupāda: But therefore the meeting is here. Do here now. Mahāṁśa: Yes, now it can be done. But I couldn't do . . . Prabhupāda: So it can be done. Why can you . . .? What? When it will be done, do that. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Don't make future promise. You do it immediately. Make program. But settle up when it will begin, when it is right. Here work is going on. That Mṛtyu, he cannot . . . no? Mahāṁśa: Mūrti dāsa. Prabhupāda: Mūrti. So he cannot manage without him? Mahāṁśa: He can. He has to be a little more acquainted with the people. He has to . . . Prabhupāda: He is here from the last June. He is not acquainted? Mahāṁśa: He's only here since about ten days. He's not here for a long time, and he's not very forceful in making them do the work. Prabhupāda: So who will be forceful? Mahāṁśa: He can be trained. I'm training him. Prabhupāda: So that training . . . everyone is under training; then who will be head? If in old age you have to be trained up, then when they will be trained up? So what is the . . . to sit down silently? That's all? Mahāṁśa: We'll send the parties out . . . Prabhupāda: Make. Make immediately program, where to go. (pause) Prabhupāda: So why you are not making? Mahāṁśa: Now? Here? Prabhupāda: Yes, make program immediately. Write what to do. Mahāṁśa: I was thinking one bus should go immediately to Kakinagar, because that's where they want to have program there, and they are ready to arrange it, and we can collect some money immediately for the expenses which are going on now. Prabhupāda: So go. Go. Mahāṁśa: So if you want, we could get one bus and few devotees can go on that. Haṁsadūta: But where is this place? Mahāṁśa: Kakinagar. It's in Andhra Pradesh, Visakhapatnam near Vizag. Haṁsadūta: You have to make a program that on the way . . . not that we drive one thousand miles to go to one program. That's not practical. Every fifty miles or so there should be some program. Mahāṁśa: That's what I mean. That whole course is . . . Andhra course is the richest area in Andhra Pradesh. Haṁsadūta: Yes, like that. Mahāṁśa: They give very nicely. We have had programs there, Prabhupāda, since three years. We've collected lakhs of rupees from there, and thousands of books have been distributed there. Prabhupāda: This I have heard even. Mahāṁśa: You have heard, yeah. Prabhupāda: So go there. What is the . . .? Make this. Mahāṁśa: They can start today? The boys are ready. They want to move, but it's just the leaders which have not decided on getting it done. Prabhupāda: So decide now. What is difficulty? *Mahāṁśa: If you can give one bus they can go immediately. And another party can go to Nagpur and start arranging for the program there on the 25th. They can do nagara*-kīrtanas , book distribution, and arrange for the program on the 25th, and one bus can go to Kakinagar. So all the boys will be out and be engaged. And the boys from Hyderabad should go back to Hyderabad and get into the program there. There's so much work to be done in Hyderabad. They're suffering a lot. Jagadīśa: What about the program here? Mahāṁśa: The program here doesn't need too many people. Only five, six people is enough. Haṁsadūta: (aside) Close the door. Mahāṁśa: Because the program here is just needing supervision. Jagadīśa: No, but I mean kīrtana , constant kīrtana , and prasādam . Mahāṁśa: Well, if you want constant kīrtana , then we have to have more devotees here. Prabhupāda: Constant kīrtana ? Who says constant? Jagadīśa: Well, we have to engage the villagers. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they'll come in the evening. We cannot be always . . . Haṁsadūta: Why not? *Devotee: German Śrīla Prabhupāda, we want to go nagara*-saṅkīrtana to the villages and announce the program. Prabhupāda: Go. Haṁsadūta: Well, go. German devotee: But we cannot go because Candrodaya, he doesn't want to go. *Mahāṁśa: Take Rāma*-kṣetra. Rāma-kṣetra knows everything. He knows. German devotee: Take as much as possible devotees? Haṁsadūta: Yes. German devotee: Okay. Prabhupāda: So write what you are going to do immediately. Write. Write the names, who is going where. Mahāṁśa: (indistinct) . . . they will leave? Haṁsadūta: I just wrote down all the leaders. Ātmavidyā, Puṇyaśloka . . . (indistinct) . . . Rājasāra. Otherwise I can go anywhere without fixing a program. I can go to any city. If no one is going to fix the program, I can go anywhere. That I was doing already. I came here because you promised me that in every city you know people, you can fix program. So fix them and then we'll go there. Otherwise there is no need to send anyone. We'll just go there and stay in a dharmaśālā. Prabhupāda: So why not go, one or two men, to fix up program? Haṁsadūta: In Nagpur, a city like Nagpur, you say you have members. Send some man who knows them from your temple. He makes an arrangement, we go there, make a nice program. Mahāṁśa: Okay. Prabhupāda: So who is going to Nagpur? Write that. Mahāṁśa: Vāsughoṣa and who from yours? Haṁsadūta: I'll see later who goes. Anyone can go with him if he knows what to do. Mahāṁśa: Someone who can speak Hindi. Prabhupāda: You cannot expect from his party anyone speaking Hindi. Mahāṁśa: He has many . . . he has a good Rajasthani boy who is very good with Vāsughoṣa. He's in Hyderabad now. Haṁsadūta: Who is that? *Mahāṁśa: Vāsanta*-kṛṣṇa, or somebody. They can take the van? Haṁsadūta: No need of van, is there? What're you going to do with van? Mahāṁśa: Well, if they're going to have to arrange a program in eight days, they have to run around to see so many people, get leaflets printed, get banners painted, see Municipal people, see the police people. Prabhupāda: For that reason van is required? Haṁsadūta: No, he can do everything by . . . Mahāṁśa: They have extra vans here. Haṁsadūta: It's not practical. I tell you, these vans . . . it's not practical to take these vans and drive them around the cities. It's very dangerous. It's not practical. It's easier to go by rickshaw. Mahāṁśa: What about a small one? Haṁsadūta: Yes, the small ones. I mean, it's easier to go by rickshaw. It's a fact, you know. We had this experience . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is local bus. For one, two men van running is not good. Mahāṁśa: So one bus party goes immediately to Kakinagar, with maybe Ātmavidyā or whoever . . . Haṁsadūta: Ātmavidyā. *Mahāṁśa: Ātmavidyā can lead that party. And one party goes to Nagpur as soon as that is fixed. And to fix that program, Vāsughoṣa and Vāsanta*-kṛṣṇa can go there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Then Hyderabad temple, devotees should return to their services in Hyderabad, and Godruma should return to Deity worship. A crew of eight devotees will stay over here to do the program over here. Prabhupāda: Hmm. And Haṁsadūta will stay here. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. And you begin your digging. Tejiyas: Mahārāja, you should tell the other persons who I'll have to work with that whatever I suggest, that they should do like that. Prabhupāda: But you take our ordinary laborer. Tejiyas: But they should know. Otherwise if I come, they may object, "Mahāṁśa Swami has to tell me." Just like I told this Yuthāgraja something. He said, "I have to ask Mahāṁśa Swami." I told Mūrti something. He said, "Only if Mahāṁśa Swami says, then I can do." Mahāṁśa: No, no. Tejiyas: No, but you should make it clear when we have a meeting. Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. We'll have a meeting with all the people on the farm. Tejiyas: You don't have to . . . then I'll see that you have vegetables. Prabhupāda: And these village men or any laborer, as you proposed, if they want, they can stay. We shall give him food, shelter, as well as some remuneration. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Like that, many people . . . Tejiyas: We bring a few. I can talk to them Telugu, and I explain and see who likes. We can give them some . . . Prabhupāda: There is a . . . he will be in charge of growing this, and this way do everything. And you go to Bhogilal or phone. Bring him here and I'll transfer there. I have no objection. Immediately. There is no need of painting. Mahāṁśa: No need of painting. Prabhupāda: No. Why there is use? We can manage there. Bhogilal may come, and he may be given here or wherever possible. Mahāṁśa: I'll ask the carpenter to try and fix those doors by this evening in Bhogilal Patel's room. The inside doors are already finished. Only those curved doors take time. So I'll . . . Prabhupāda: So you have made . . . cut fashion? Mahāṁśa: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Fashionable? Mahāṁśa: Yes, it looks a little nice. Prabhupāda: All right. So that room, if it is done, it is all right. If not, this room and that room. That's all. Better bring him. He'll be very useful. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Purchase one canopy instead of renting. We shall have to continue this program. Mahāṁśa: Right now it will be difficult to purchase, because we don't have enough money. Prabhupāda: What is the money? How much? Mahāṁśa: We don't have enough money. It will cost at least a thousand rupees or more, the whole thing, at least a thousand, maybe more. We don't have so much money right now. Prabhupāda: So I'll pay you thousand. But . . . Mahāṁśa: Okay. Prabhupāda: You pay me the rent, I'll pay you thousand. Yes. What is the rent per day? Mahāṁśa: I'll get it free, without rent. Prabhupāda: Then don't purchase. Mahāṁśa: That member, he has a store. He gives . . . Prabhupāda: So then what is the use of purchase? If you get free, no need of purchasing. Mahāṁśa: No purchase. Prabhupāda: So make this arrangement immediately. Then go, and we shall go out. Is it clear? No. Not? Mahāṁśa: Yes, it's light. Prabhupāda: I shall wash my teeth and go. Tejiyas: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Prabhupāda: There is no arrangement for producing vegetable? Mahāṁśa: We just finished one harvest, Prabhupāda, and now the second harvest is already in the ground. Prabhupāda: So what kind of harvest? You finish and then you have to wait for six months for the second one. Mahāṁśa: Now we are designing one plot for continuous . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm, so this . . . where is Tejiyas Mahārāja? So you immediately arrange for producing vegetables. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, I'm asking Tejiyas. Haṁsadūta: Here is Tejiyas, here. Prabhupāda: Oh, here he is. So, why don't you do that? Tejiyas: Yes. I'll make up the scheme today. It should be that you have continuous crop. You plant seeds one week . . . but again they have made the same mistake with these cauliflower and cabbage. Prabhupāda: Well, they mistake . . . you say, "They mistake." Who are "they"? You say you do mistake. Don't say "they." This is bureaucracy, "they." You are all "they." Anyway, whatever is done, immediately make arrangement. And this is one thing. And the other thing: I came here that there will be festival and prasādam distribution. Why this is not begun? Mahāṁśa: Till yesterday there was being marriages in the city. Now, from today, the paṇḍāls are free. Prabhupāda: Because there are marriages our program will be cancelled? Mahāṁśa: No, but the person who gives us the paṇḍāl . . . it's supposed to start today, Prabhupāda, their program. They have been advertising in the villages about the prasādam distribution this evening, so the stage and the śāmiyānā will be coming today and the pots are coming today. So we have all the grains and everything. We can start the prasādam distribution this evening. Prabhupāda: So you'll keep . . . come in charge. So do this also immediately. And the next is that Bhogilal wants to come here. So bring him immediately. What is the difficulty of that house? Mahāṁśa: All the plastering inside is finished now. Prabhupāda: Everything, whatever is finished . . . Mahāṁśa: Painting has to be done. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mahāṁśa: The toilets are working, all the connections are finished, and only thing is the painting has to be done today. Prabhupāda: So painting also can be . . . without painting, we can go there. What is the wrong problem? Mahāṁśa: It looks a little shabby. If we wait for one more day it will look much better. Prabhupāda: So one more day we shall wait, but tomorrow we must go there. Mahāṁśa: Yes, tomorrow we can go there. Prabhupāda: So arrange for bringing Bhogilal tomorrow. Mahāṁśa: Yes, tomorrow afternoon or evening we can arrange. Prabhupāda: No. Yes, so immediately arrange for that. He is very important man. If he comes, you can all mature consultation about this . . . (indistinct) . . . about managing. He is practically doing. He has one thousand acres of land. Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes, it's not a joke. Prabhupāda: And he is practical businessman. So immediately . . . and besides that, he is already sympathetic. He is becoming interested more. So he can do so many things for us. He is a very nice man. So he volunteered to come here. So bring him immediately. So arrange. From tomorrow we go there. If it is not finished, then he may be given that place. I am at here. I shall stay. Or he can be given this room, I can go there. In this way . . . because the doors are not yet fitted. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that's the main problem. Prabhupāda: But there are so many main problems. So at least in my side the doors are fitted. So I can go there, and he can stay here. Anyway, either there or here, arrange to bring him immediately. He will go away by the twelfth. So he may stay here at least for one week. Mahāṁśa: One week. Prabhupāda: Tell him like that. Mahāṁśa: Yes. And the cooking will be done by his men. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Because if he comes, his cook will also come. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. His cook and servant, yes. So make this arrangement so that everything should be inaugurated tomorrow, not more than that. So you have to purchase vegetable and then make it big, big scheme. (chuckles) Bambharambhe laghu*-kriyā . Ārambha , very big, and action, very little. And ask some of our devotees to collect all the gobars and bring here. I want gobar. There is so much gobars scattered here and there. Take one basket and two men may go and collect all of them, put it in the sunshine. So nowadays sunshine is so bright. You can have so many things exposed to sunshine. All vitamins. So you immediately make program for vegetable, fruits, flower, surrounding this, immediately. So how Bhogilal will be brought here? Mahāṁśa: In his car. Prabhupāda: In his car. So make arrangement. Either we both of us, we may stay there, or one here, one there. Mahāṁśa: And the secretaries can stay here. Prabhupāda: Secretaries, as they are staying. I think one can manage that. There is no difficulty. (break) So all the devotees here, they are all required there? Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then why . . . so the temple work is not suffering? Mahāṁśa: It is. Prabhupāda: Then why you are keeping so many devotees here? Mahāṁśa: The main problem now is that there were three pūjārīs , and one of them is here, and he doesn't want to go back to pūjārī work, so we have to find . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Mahāṁśa: He doesn't want to go back to do pūjārī work, so there's only two pūjārīs , and they were just complaining yesterday that it's very difficult to do so much Deity worship. Prabhupāda: So why? Why he does not want to go? Mahāṁśa: He wants to go traveling for a while. Prabhupāda: So that cannot be. So traveling means you have asked him to . . .? Haṁsadūta: No, I haven't asked him any . . . it's the same problem. Whenever I go somewhere there are always certain men, they want to go. Prabhupāda: No. Nobody can go without sanction. This is sense gratification, "I want to." This is not good. Jagadīśa: Actually, the temple right now is in lack of a full time manager. Mahāṁśa Mahārāja spends most of his time here, and I can see that the temple management is not going right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not very nice. So do you require . . .? But you also do not remain here. Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then you are not there; you are not here. Then where you are? Mahāṁśa: No, all these last, last two weeks I've been working on this house, and if I'm not here then . . . like yesterday I was not here, and the workers didn't work properly. Then I made them work in the night. When I came back, I saw that they have not . . . *Prabhupāda: So that means everywhere, if you are not there, then everything is gone to hell. Then what is this management? You cannot be everywhere. That is not . . . you are not Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānām ( BG 18.61). Mahāṁśa: I mean, the problem that came up in the temple, it was going on okay before, but then there was suddenly so many more devotees that came. Half of them were here, half of them were there, and they were moving around every day. So the temple managers were confused. They didn't know how much . . . how many devotees . . . Prabhupāda: No, temple . . . who is temple manager? Mahāṁśa: Ānandamaya is managing now. He's very good. He can do it nicely, but he was confused because there were devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Now there is no confusion. Immediately they can go, all the devotees. They are not required. What is the use? Jagadīśa: That temple is a big, big project. Ānandamaya is not competent to handle the whole thing. He doesn't have the respect of the other members, enough. And plus I don't see him taking charge anymore. If you ask him to get something done he says, "Well . . ." He always makes some excuse. This was my experience while we were there. Prabhupāda: Who is that man? Mahāṁśa: Ānandamaya. He has been here since four years, and he knows practically everybody in Hyderabad. He was working with me all the time. Prabhupāda: So then why does he not go there? Why he's here? Mahāṁśa: He's not here; he's there. Prabhupāda: Oh. So the devotees may go there. They have no business here to stay, so many. Why? They can return back. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Jagadīśa: They need a head, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: They need a head. Prabhupāda: A head means you have to train head. If you cut head, then how there will be head? Neither tail, neither head. Head means you have to train them, head. There is no need of so many men here. Why? Jagadīśa: Many of the men who are here are on Haṁsadūta's party. Prabhupāda: So, do they require here? Haṁsadūta: I sent all the men here because Mahāṁśa promised that there would be a program lined up, but there is no program. That's why they're just . . . now they all want to go, and if they can go I can send them. They are ready to go. They don't want to stay. Prabhupāda: So? Mahāṁśa: The problem is that the programs I didn't arrange, because the devotees were not regular in coming. I didn't know when they were all coming. So if I arrange a program, that means my men . . . Prabhupāda: But therefore the meeting is here. Do here now. Mahāṁśa: Yes, now it can be done. But I couldn't do . . . Prabhupāda: So it can be done. Why can you . . .? What? When it will be done, do that. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Don't make future promise. You do it immediately. Make program. But settle up when it will begin, when it is right. Here work is going on. That Mṛtyu, he cannot . . . no? Mahāṁśa: Mūrti dāsa. Prabhupāda: Mūrti. So he cannot manage without him? Mahāṁśa: He can. He has to be a little more acquainted with the people. He has to . . . Prabhupāda: He is here from the last June. He is not acquainted? Mahāṁśa: He's only here since about ten days. He's not here for a long time, and he's not very forceful in making them do the work. Prabhupāda: So who will be forceful? Mahāṁśa: He can be trained. I'm training him. Prabhupāda: So that training . . . everyone is under training; then who will be head? If in old age you have to be trained up, then when they will be trained up? So what is the . . . to sit down silently? That's all? Mahāṁśa: We'll send the parties out . . . Prabhupāda: Make. Make immediately program, where to go. (pause) Prabhupāda: So why you are not making? Mahāṁśa: Now? Here? Prabhupāda: Yes, make program immediately. Write what to do. Mahāṁśa: I was thinking one bus should go immediately to Kakinagar, because that's where they want to have program there, and they are ready to arrange it, and we can collect some money immediately for the expenses which are going on now. Prabhupāda: So go. Go. Mahāṁśa: So if you want, we could get one bus and few devotees can go on that. Haṁsadūta: But where is this place? Mahāṁśa: Kakinagar. It's in Andhra Pradesh, Visakhapatnam near Vizag. Haṁsadūta: You have to make a program that on the way . . . not that we drive one thousand miles to go to one program. That's not practical. Every fifty miles or so there should be some program. Mahāṁśa: That's what I mean. That whole course is . . . Andhra course is the richest area in Andhra Pradesh. Haṁsadūta: Yes, like that. Mahāṁśa: They give very nicely. We have had programs there, Prabhupāda, since three years. We've collected lakhs of rupees from there, and thousands of books have been distributed there. Prabhupāda: This I have heard even. Mahāṁśa: You have heard, yeah. Prabhupāda: So go there. What is the . . .? Make this. Mahāṁśa: They can start today? The boys are ready. They want to move, but it's just the leaders which have not decided on getting it done. Prabhupāda: So decide now. What is difficulty? *Mahāṁśa: If you can give one bus they can go immediately. And another party can go to Nagpur and start arranging for the program there on the 25th. They can do nagara*-kīrtanas , book distribution, and arrange for the program on the 25th, and one bus can go to Kakinagar. So all the boys will be out and be engaged. And the boys from Hyderabad should go back to Hyderabad and get into the program there. There's so much work to be done in Hyderabad. They're suffering a lot. Jagadīśa: What about the program here? Mahāṁśa: The program here doesn't need too many people. Only five, six people is enough. Haṁsadūta: (aside) Close the door. Mahāṁśa: Because the program here is just needing supervision. Jagadīśa: No, but I mean kīrtana , constant kīrtana , and prasādam . Mahāṁśa: Well, if you want constant kīrtana , then we have to have more devotees here. Prabhupāda: Constant kīrtana ? Who says constant? Jagadīśa: Well, we have to engage the villagers. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they'll come in the evening. We cannot be always . . . Haṁsadūta: Why not? *Devotee: German Śrīla Prabhupāda, we want to go nagara*-saṅkīrtana to the villages and announce the program. Prabhupāda: Go. Haṁsadūta: Well, go. German devotee: But we cannot go because Candrodaya, he doesn't want to go. *Mahāṁśa: Take Rāma*-kṣetra. Rāma-kṣetra knows everything. He knows. German devotee: Take as much as possible devotees? Haṁsadūta: Yes. German devotee: Okay. Prabhupāda: So write what you are going to do immediately. Write. Write the names, who is going where. Mahāṁśa: (indistinct) . . . they will leave? Haṁsadūta: I just wrote down all the leaders. Ātmavidyā, Puṇyaśloka . . . (indistinct) . . . Rājasāra. Otherwise I can go anywhere without fixing a program. I can go to any city. If no one is going to fix the program, I can go anywhere. That I was doing already. I came here because you promised me that in every city you know people, you can fix program. So fix them and then we'll go there. Otherwise there is no need to send anyone. We'll just go there and stay in a dharmaśālā. Prabhupāda: So why not go, one or two men, to fix up program? Haṁsadūta: In Nagpur, a city like Nagpur, you say you have members. Send some man who knows them from your temple. He makes an arrangement, we go there, make a nice program. Mahāṁśa: Okay. Prabhupāda: So who is going to Nagpur? Write that. Mahāṁśa: Vāsughoṣa and who from yours? Haṁsadūta: I'll see later who goes. Anyone can go with him if he knows what to do. Mahāṁśa: Someone who can speak Hindi. Prabhupāda: You cannot expect from his party anyone speaking Hindi. Mahāṁśa: He has many . . . he has a good Rajasthani boy who is very good with Vāsughoṣa. He's in Hyderabad now. Haṁsadūta: Who is that? *Mahāṁśa: Vāsanta*-kṛṣṇa, or somebody. They can take the van? Haṁsadūta: No need of van, is there? What're you going to do with van? Mahāṁśa: Well, if they're going to have to arrange a program in eight days, they have to run around to see so many people, get leaflets printed, get banners painted, see Municipal people, see the police people. Prabhupāda: For that reason van is required? Haṁsadūta: No, he can do everything by . . . Mahāṁśa: They have extra vans here. Haṁsadūta: It's not practical. I tell you, these vans . . . it's not practical to take these vans and drive them around the cities. It's very dangerous. It's not practical. It's easier to go by rickshaw. Mahāṁśa: What about a small one? Haṁsadūta: Yes, the small ones. I mean, it's easier to go by rickshaw. It's a fact, you know. We had this experience . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is local bus. For one, two men van running is not good. Mahāṁśa: So one bus party goes immediately to Kakinagar, with maybe Ātmavidyā or whoever . . . Haṁsadūta: Ātmavidyā. *Mahāṁśa: Ātmavidyā can lead that party. And one party goes to Nagpur as soon as that is fixed. And to fix that program, Vāsughoṣa and Vāsanta*-kṛṣṇa can go there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Then Hyderabad temple, devotees should return to their services in Hyderabad, and Godruma should return to Deity worship. A crew of eight devotees will stay over here to do the program over here. Prabhupāda: Hmm. And Haṁsadūta will stay here. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. And you begin your digging. Tejiyas: Mahārāja, you should tell the other persons who I'll have to work with that whatever I suggest, that they should do like that. Prabhupāda: But you take our ordinary laborer. Tejiyas: But they should know. Otherwise if I come, they may object, "Mahāṁśa Swami has to tell me." Just like I told this Yuthāgraja something. He said, "I have to ask Mahāṁśa Swami." I told Mūrti something. He said, "Only if Mahāṁśa Swami says, then I can do." Mahāṁśa: No, no. Tejiyas: No, but you should make it clear when we have a meeting. Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. We'll have a meeting with all the people on the farm. Tejiyas: You don't have to . . . then I'll see that you have vegetables. Prabhupāda: And these village men or any laborer, as you proposed, if they want, they can stay. We shall give him food, shelter, as well as some remuneration. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Like that, many people . . . Tejiyas: We bring a few. I can talk to them Telugu, and I explain and see who likes. We can give them some . . . Prabhupāda: There is a . . . he will be in charge of growing this, and this way do everything. And you go to Bhogilal or phone. Bring him here and I'll transfer there. I have no objection. Immediately. There is no need of painting. Mahāṁśa: No need of painting. Prabhupāda: No. Why there is use? We can manage there. Bhogilal may come, and he may be given here or wherever possible. Mahāṁśa: I'll ask the carpenter to try and fix those doors by this evening in Bhogilal Patel's room. The inside doors are already finished. Only those curved doors take time. So I'll . . . Prabhupāda: So you have made . . . cut fashion? Mahāṁśa: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Fashionable? Mahāṁśa: Yes, it looks a little nice. Prabhupāda: All right. So that room, if it is done, it is all right. If not, this room and that room. That's all. Better bring him. He'll be very useful. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Purchase one canopy instead of renting. We shall have to continue this program. Mahāṁśa: Right now it will be difficult to purchase, because we don't have enough money. Prabhupāda: What is the money? How much? Mahāṁśa: We don't have enough money. It will cost at least a thousand rupees or more, the whole thing, at least a thousand, maybe more. We don't have so much money right now. Prabhupāda: So I'll pay you thousand. But . . . Mahāṁśa: Okay. Prabhupāda: You pay me the rent, I'll pay you thousand. Yes. What is the rent per day? Mahāṁśa: I'll get it free, without rent. Prabhupāda: Then don't purchase. Mahāṁśa: That member, he has a store. He gives . . . Prabhupāda: So then what is the use of purchase? If you get free, no need of purchasing. Mahāṁśa: No purchase. Prabhupāda: So make this arrangement immediately. Then go, and we shall go out. Is it clear? No. Not? Mahāṁśa: Yes, it's light. Prabhupāda: I shall wash my teeth and go. Tejiyas: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) (Preparation for Gita Pratisthana) *Prabhupāda: . . . jail, it is not due to overpopulation. It is due to overcriminality. Similarly, whenever there is scarcity of supply or scarcity of food, it is not due to overpopulation. It is due to overcriminality or over*-sinful activities. Due to over-sinful activities, not overpopulation. It is a bogus theory. That is stated, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān ( BG 16.19). Those who are devils, who are demons . . . Jagadīśa: What was that verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Tān aham. Jagadīśa: Tān. Prabhupāda: For the demons. Demons and godless people must be suffering. You cannot make a solution. You cannot surpass the law of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). There is enough water in the ocean, but still you are suffering for scarcity of water. Why? What is the answer? Jagadīśa: Their answer or my answer? *Prabhupāda: What their answer, these rascals? Just like in Europe there is scarcity of water, they proposed to import, rascal. But there are so many oceans. So where is the scarcity of water? But why you cannot use it? Unless there is intervention by the nature's law you cannot use it. Therefore you are completely under the laws of nature. Nature will punish you, nature will reward you, according to your acts. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi, ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). You are falsely thinking that you are independent. A slight deviation from the laws of nature will put you into difficulty. Immediately there are. You can close this door. (break) . . . population. In any case, one can be punished when the nature's supply is restricted. (break) Jagadīśa: It's from the Third Chapter. *Prabhupāda: So in order to release ourself from the sinful . . . reaction of sinful activity, we must perform yajña. And in this age the easiest process of yajña is saṅkīrtana*-yajña. (break) So what are the problem? Jagadīśa: Under "problems" are . . . there are some general problems, such as taxes. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: Taxes. Taxation. Prabhupāda: Hmm, taxation. So that is . . . you have created problem. When you transgress the laws of nature, this . . . there is shortage of supply. And the government, on this plea they will tax to mitigate your miseries. Actually they will not be able to mitigate your miseries, but on the plea of your miseries they will levy taxes and divide amongst themselves. So this is another way of punishment. Because the government is your government, because you are rascal, so you elect some, another rascal. And they invent ways of rascaldom to mitigate your miseries. To avoid taxation means you become good man and you select your ruler, good men. Then there will be no taxation. (break) Jagadīśa: Other problems? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: Other problems? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: Race relations. Prabhupāda: Race relations? That is also ignorance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa is original father. Where is the question of race? You are all brothers. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So, all problems solved? Jagadīśa: As far as I'm concerned. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: I can't think of any more major problems. I remember from . . . Prabhupāda: Problem . . . as long as you have got this material body you'll have problem. Jagadīśa: One after another. Prabhupāda: Therefore the best solution is to go back home, back to Godhead. Jagadīśa: We have to convince them that they have problems, because they think that they're enjoying. Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Therefore they require education. Jagadīśa: They don't know of the real standard of enjoyment. Prabhupāda: How they can know? There is no understanding. Mūḍha. (long pause) Prabhupāda: To solve all these problems, therefore, there must be a class of men, brāhmaṇas. Not a class; a section of people must become brāhmaṇas. And all other sections should consult them and live as kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, śūdras. (pause) Prabhupāda: Then? It is finished now? No. Jagadīśa: Well, we've solved all the problems. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: We've solved all the problems. Now we want to convince this Vinoba Bhave to support us? Prabhupāda: Yes. So can you see what is the position, my quarters? Hari-śauri: Well, Mūrti said your side is fit for moving into. But if they have . . . see, Bhogilal Patel is not here yet, so I thought if we wait at least till tomorrow, if you want, then that will give them the chance to get a few more doors on, and then, if Bhogilal comes tomorrow, then we can move in the morning. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: See, they have all the wood now for the doors, and they need one more day and then all the doors will be fitted in the whole house. Prabhupāda: So do that tomorrow. Hari-śauri: And that will be a lot safer too. Security reasons, it will be a lot better. Prabhupāda: Tomorrow morning we can go. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. (break) . . . śuddhyed sattva, purify your existence. (end) (Preparation for Gita Pratisthana) *Prabhupāda: . . . jail, it is not due to overpopulation. It is due to overcriminality. Similarly, whenever there is scarcity of supply or scarcity of food, it is not due to overpopulation. It is due to overcriminality or over*-sinful activities. Due to over-sinful activities, not overpopulation. It is a bogus theory. That is stated, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān ( BG 16.19). Those who are devils, who are demons . . . Jagadīśa: What was that verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Tān aham. Jagadīśa: Tān. Prabhupāda: For the demons. Demons and godless people must be suffering. You cannot make a solution. You cannot surpass the law of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). There is enough water in the ocean, but still you are suffering for scarcity of water. Why? What is the answer? Jagadīśa: Their answer or my answer? *Prabhupāda: What their answer, these rascals? Just like in Europe there is scarcity of water, they proposed to import, rascal. But there are so many oceans. So where is the scarcity of water? But why you cannot use it? Unless there is intervention by the nature's law you cannot use it. Therefore you are completely under the laws of nature. Nature will punish you, nature will reward you, according to your acts. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi, ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). You are falsely thinking that you are independent. A slight deviation from the laws of nature will put you into difficulty. Immediately there are. You can close this door. (break) . . . population. In any case, one can be punished when the nature's supply is restricted. (break) Jagadīśa: It's from the Third Chapter. *Prabhupāda: So in order to release ourself from the sinful . . . reaction of sinful activity, we must perform yajña. And in this age the easiest process of yajña is saṅkīrtana*-yajña. (break) So what are the problem? Jagadīśa: Under "problems" are . . . there are some general problems, such as taxes. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: Taxes. Taxation. Prabhupāda: Hmm, taxation. So that is . . . you have created problem. When you transgress the laws of nature, this . . . there is shortage of supply. And the government, on this plea they will tax to mitigate your miseries. Actually they will not be able to mitigate your miseries, but on the plea of your miseries they will levy taxes and divide amongst themselves. So this is another way of punishment. Because the government is your government, because you are rascal, so you elect some, another rascal. And they invent ways of rascaldom to mitigate your miseries. To avoid taxation means you become good man and you select your ruler, good men. Then there will be no taxation. (break) Jagadīśa: Other problems? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: Other problems? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: Race relations. Prabhupāda: Race relations? That is also ignorance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa is original father. Where is the question of race? You are all brothers. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So, all problems solved? Jagadīśa: As far as I'm concerned. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: I can't think of any more major problems. I remember from . . . Prabhupāda: Problem . . . as long as you have got this material body you'll have problem. Jagadīśa: One after another. Prabhupāda: Therefore the best solution is to go back home, back to Godhead. Jagadīśa: We have to convince them that they have problems, because they think that they're enjoying. Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Therefore they require education. Jagadīśa: They don't know of the real standard of enjoyment. Prabhupāda: How they can know? There is no understanding. Mūḍha. (long pause) Prabhupāda: To solve all these problems, therefore, there must be a class of men, brāhmaṇas. Not a class; a section of people must become brāhmaṇas. And all other sections should consult them and live as kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, śūdras. (pause) Prabhupāda: Then? It is finished now? No. Jagadīśa: Well, we've solved all the problems. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: We've solved all the problems. Now we want to convince this Vinoba Bhave to support us? Prabhupāda: Yes. So can you see what is the position, my quarters? Hari-śauri: Well, Mūrti said your side is fit for moving into. But if they have . . . see, Bhogilal Patel is not here yet, so I thought if we wait at least till tomorrow, if you want, then that will give them the chance to get a few more doors on, and then, if Bhogilal comes tomorrow, then we can move in the morning. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: See, they have all the wood now for the doors, and they need one more day and then all the doors will be fitted in the whole house. Prabhupāda: So do that tomorrow. Hari-śauri: And that will be a lot safer too. Security reasons, it will be a lot better. Prabhupāda: Tomorrow morning we can go. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. (break) . . . śuddhyed sattva, purify your existence. (end) (Conversation on farm management) *Prabhupāda: Make very nice, palatable prasādam . We shall spend for that. Why miserly? There is no need of miserly. You are going to earn money by agricultural produce, so how the money will be utilized? It will be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. By prasādam , by chanting, by drama, somehow or other bring them. That is our mission. Congregational chanting. Always festival, and we shall spend for that. Immediately arrange. If there is scarcity of money, I shall pay, but from . . . bring them, somehow or other. Tomorrow I want to see at least 500 men. Make arrangement like that. I came here to see that, not to sit down in a room peacefully. So there also we shall inform the meeting that we want to propagate this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement town to town, village to village, by attracting them with musical demonstration of saṅkīrtana , dramatic play, movie, prasādam . Somehow or other they should come to the temple, to the paṇḍāl , and congregationally chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , hear Bhagavad-gītā , Bhāgavatam . For this purpose, whatever expenditure is required, that you should collect and spend. This is the scheme of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. You must come here, question, understand, and vigorous propaganda should be inaugurated town to town, village to village. Those who are educated, to them distribution of literature. The school, college, library, institution, university, by scholarly presentation. That is wanted. What is that? Jagadīśa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Doesn't matter. Understand the idea? Jagadīśa: Oh, yes. *Prabhupāda: To attract them to really nice prasādam , palatable food, we shall spend. And we shall earn also by literature, produce, as they're earning. Where is the difficulty? We shall take contribution from rich persons. We shall earn ourself, and spend it to give them very nice prasādam . Gradually when they come, when you engage them in producing their own food, own shelter, own cloth . . . this should be organized. And they'll be glad. As soon as they understand, they will be glad to do. And they will stop all this nonsense: illicit sex and meat*-eating. Then their life will be purified, and they'll make more and more advancement in this path. That is perfection. That you want. Is it clear or not? Jagadīśa: Oh, yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes? This is our mission. If you give them very nice, palatable prasādam . . . they go to hotel from miles together to take some palatable foodstuff—restaurant, hotel. And we cannot give nice kṛṣṇa*-prasādam ? Why? Why you cannot give? Arrange like that, first class. Simply for eating they will come. Immediately do it. Jagadīśa: I have a question, whether we should always give them khicuṛi or whether we should . . . Prabhupāda: Give them nice prasādam by which they are attracted. It doesn't matter khicuṛi, purī, kachorī, lāḍdu . Whatever they are attracted, we must give. Jagadīśa: Halavā . *Prabhupāda: Whatever that will attract them. That I want. Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . Don't waste; give them nice, palatable foodstuff. Give them one finest kachorī , one nice samosā , two purīs , they will be very glad. Make very, very nice prasādam . What is this rubbish, the dog cannot eat even? They have done a great mistake, all rascals. I am very angry. I say that if you have no money, I'll spend, I will give you money. Why should you make such tenth class, and no food at all. It is to be thrown away. Simply waste of grains and energy. Engage nice professional cook, prepare nice foodstuff. I shall spend for that if you have no money. Gentlemen who are coming immediately should be offered some prasādam , "Please come here, take: purī, kachorī, samosā ." Arrangement should be like that. The doctors came, he comes out of love, but there is no prasādam . Huh? What is this? Jagadīśa: Sorry? Prabhupāda: The doctor comes, but we could not supply him prasādam at 12 o'clock. Jagadīśa: Today? Prabhupāda: Not today, the other day. Jagadīśa: Oh. Prabhupāda: Prasādam is not yet ready, you also said. After eating I have no . . . not yet ready. What is this? At 2 o'clock? As soon as they want. The Vṛndāvana also, the same thing I told that. Now they are doing? Prasādam , as soon as they want, they'll must feed some prasādam according to the position of the person. We shall spend for that. I am not hesitating to spend money. Why the arrangement is lacking? Immediately arrange for theirs and invite them. Don't make it childish. Where are the leaders? They are now engaged there? Jagadīśa: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: Our leaders are engaged there? Jagadīśa: At the kīrtana ? Prabhupāda: Huh. Jagadīśa: Mahāṁśa is there. I don't know where Haṁsadūta is. Prabhupāda: So anyway, this is my instruction. We have written and discussed and go. And I want to see tomorrow many thousand people. If you cannot make attractive, why they will come? Then it is failure. Make attractive. Whatever money is required, I shall pay. Simply theory will not help. Make such prasādam as people will come and be mad after it. Jagadīśa: Yes, we can . . . Prabhupāda: Just explain. You have taken in writing? Jagadīśa: It's on tape. Prabhupāda: So go and discuss. They must be attracted. Jagadīśa: I see. Prabhupāda: Otherwise it is failure. (break) Mahāṁśa: . . . who came, but . . . Prabhupāda: You are satisfied today? Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Mahāṁśa: No. The people also, there was no advertisement of today there would be a program. Prabhupāda: So whatever it is required, you do it. Mahāṁśa: So on tomorrow, I will do the advertisement and show them . . . Prabhupāda: Give them very, very first class prasādam . Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They will come for the tongue. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Today the ḍāl is . . . they liked it very spicy. Prabhupāda: That they like, I do not know what they like. But you prepare they should come and eat. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I do not know what they like. Mahāṁśa: There is a lot of sabjī in the ḍāl also, today, and it's hot. They like it. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, whatever they like, the villagers, you prepare. If you have no money, I shall pay money. Mahāṁśa: Okay. Prabhupāda: But attract them. They will come here to eat, "Oh, very nice thing." That is wanted. I made this movement successful simply by Love Feast. They did not come to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. They came for Love Feast. From very beginning, when I was in 26 Second Avenue, every Sunday I was giving nice foodstuff, at least 200 men. Daily at least more than fifteen, twenty. I was cooking myself. That is the beginning of my movement. The cāpāṭis with Kīrtanānanda, first of all he was taking one and two, then twelve. (laughter) There was another boy . . . Devotees: Stryādhīśa. *Prabhupāda: Stryādhīśa. Twenty*-two cāpāṭis . (laughter) "Stryādhīśa, can I give you?" "Yes." I gave him four. Finished. "Stryādhīśa, can I give you?" "Yes." (laughter) Very nice boy. He was eating twenty-two. One day there was no money, so he immediately went and came after some time with some money. "And where did you go?" The shoe booth. He polished shoes and brought some money. (laughs) (laughter) In this way, this was developed. Give them prasādam , nice prasādam . Any gentleman comes, immediately there must be some prasādam . Engage first-class cook. Spend money; don't be a miserly. If you have no money, I will pay. So long I am living, I shall go on paying. You don't be miserly. Bring devotees for eating and then chanting, then cinema, then lecture. In this way you have to develop. Not that people will come, "Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is there, let us go there." They will not come. What do they know about Hare Kṛṣṇa? They will come, "Oh, there is nice, good prasādam distributed." Mahāṁśa: Some people I know, they said that yesterday the prasādam was not nice, and there was . . . *Prabhupāda: Not nice—it is not eatable even by the dogs! But you are less than the dogs if you prepare such thing. I was surprised. You allowed a sweeper to cook. I was surprised. We have distribution prasādam , not dog's food. Such rascals are here. You do not know. I do not wish to discuss anymore on this point. You have murdered the whole thing in two days. Now if possible, bring them, give them first*-class prasādam , very palatable. Foodstuff means even one has no appetite, he'll eat. That is food. Not that even one has got appetite, he'll forget. That is not food. So do like that, and for money produce, use cane, sugarcane, rice. We shall spend for that. Don't spoil money, but do like businessman. He invests money, he gets a return. Spend it for Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. There is no question of becoming a miser. I never did it. When I have got a farthing, I want to spend it, immediately spend. Oh, what I have made this BBT? Immediately fifty percent for printing and fifty percent for spreading this. Why don't you understand what I want to do? So whatever is done is done; now do it very nicely. I want to see at least 1,000 men coming from the villages. There are 20,000 men here. You cannot attract them? Mahāṁśa: Can we announce that you will give darśana on the stage for five minutes? Prabhupāda: Huh? Mahāṁśa: Can we announce . . .? Prabhupāda: Nobody will come for my darśana , but if you want, I'll go. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult task. Mahāṁśa: Because they are all very anxious to see you, because they've all been . . . Prabhupāda: All right, I shall go. What is that? The difficulty is I would have gone very gladly, but they do not understand my language, neither Hindi nor English. Mahāṁśa: It can be translated in Telugu. Prabhupāda: Then I shall go. I shall go. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I shall go. I shall speak. Give them very nice food. From tomorrow I will . . . if there are rascals, you bring. I will pay nice cook. Make varieties, very palatable food. Kichranna, puṣpānna , rice, there are so many preparations. Paramānna . You do not make paramānna, kichranna, puṣpānna. There are varieties of rice preparation. They know, the southern people, with curd, yogurt . . . Mahāṁśa: Tamarind. *Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamarind, so many preparations. So make like that. Why dog eating? They are not dogs. You cannot expect, because you are giving some dog*-eatable food, they will come. There must be one first-class cook, and all our men should learn. There's no need of simply keeping unduly, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa," and sleeping. We don't want such men. Make a show. And do not know anything how to preach. Useless. The householder, the women should be engaged in cooking. Their children should be gathered together. One man . . . I have said many times, all the children should be taken in a room by one woman, and others should be engaged in the cooking department. I have seen it. Your country, America, when they go to church, all the childrens are gathered together in a room. Is it not? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: And one or two men take care. And others, they go. Similarly, children they must have, so . . . not that everyone is children busy, "I cannot do." They cannot do if they are busy with children. So what is the use of keeping such householders? Let them live outside, earn their money. Woman business is to cleanse, to cut the vegetables, to cook. What is this? They're simply busy with the children? And they have started their mission for maintaining some children and useless women. You should organize. Rādhikāra pakka anna vividha byañjana. All the gopīs, they are engaged for cooking for Kṛṣṇa. Mother Yaśodā will call them, "You young girls, you can cook very nicely." Do you understand Bengali? Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Rādhikā with Her friends, they are cooking. And they cook so nicely that parama ānande kṛṣṇa korena bhojana : with great pleasure Kṛṣṇa is eating. And that we have to distribute. Not dog's food. You do not know what is the purpose of this mission. Don't do it. Here is a good chance; *don't spoil it. Produce huge. Make profit. You spend for Kṛṣṇa. Train all devotees how to cook. All women. Don't distribute dog's eatable things. Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . *Kṛṣṇa is taking with great pleasure. That prasādam you have to distribute. Not that dog is rejecting and you have to distribute that prasādam . Why do you think like that? This prasādam , this so*-called, rubbish thing which is rejected by dog, and you are offering to the human being. You do it. If you have no money I shall pay. There is no question of scarcity of money. Don't spoil money, but spend for real purpose, that's all. And you arrange for huge agricultural. Whatever is required, water, we shall arrange for that. Labor, everything. And if you perform yajña , there will be rain. Anyway, I asked you the other day to fill up the tank. What is the difficulty? Mahāṁśa: Which tank? Prabhupāda: That big tank. Well. Big well. Devotee (1): Just here. The one that's been pumped empty. Anyway, the big empty one that we . . . Prabhupāda: But you were surprised. You do not know that we have got a big well here? Mahāṁśa: The one that we drink water from? Hari-śauri: The big square one. Devotee: Behind the house. Prabhupāda: Why it is empty? Hmm? Mahāṁśa: Fill it for what, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Why the well is empty? There is no water. He's surprised, as if dropping from the sky. You do not know that well? Mahāṁśa: It's just a tank. Prabhupāda: Tank, yes. Why it is empty? Mahāṁśa: Because I didn't know what purpose it will serve by filling it. Prabhupāda: Filling it, we shall pump and distribute water. You shall fit pipes, and pump water and distribute to the field, so there will be no scarcity of water, and produce. What it was meant, you do not know? Mahāṁśa: No, right now, that field does not need water to . . . Prabhupāda: Then why you are not growing there something? Mahāṁśa: The paddy is drying over there, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mahāṁśa: The paddy, the rice, is drying. Prabhupāda: No, no, there are so many other fields. Why they are empty? Mahāṁśa: Oh, we have to go and do boring wells and . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore that means water supply. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that's what I have to arrange now. Prabhupāda: Hah. So why . . .? When you will arrange? Arrange it immediately. Mahāṁśa: Yes, before . . . Prabhupāda: And that is also one of the water pool to solve water problem, the tank. Do you follow what I say? Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You fill up the tank, and by pumping through pipe, you distribute water. Jagadīśa: The viaducts are already there, troughs. Mahāṁśa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: If we have got water filled up in that tank, we can water so many lands. We shall spend for that. We shall . . . pipe line, pumping. If you have so much land we can produce gold. But you have no brain. Produce gold, get money and spend it for Kṛṣṇa. This is wanted. Not simply planning and talking. The world is suffering for want of right planning. Otherwise, there is no question of suffering. Pūrṇam idam , complete it is, everything complete. That is the Vedic version. Why it is incomplete? Incomplete means these rascals. Supplying the necessities of life. (break) Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Kṛṣṇa does not want to see that we are starving for want of food. That He does not want to see. But because you have come to the material world, you have to work hard. Then you'll get your food. That is the material world. Śarīra*-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ ( BG 3.8), Kṛṣṇa says. Very . . . if you do not work, then you cannot get food. Simply work together. Sarva-kāma-dughā mahī (SB 1.10.4). And you get from the land. You have got land. You get anything from the land. The land must be moist, then you get everything. That we want to show. Hmm? What do you think? Land is . . . Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Eh? You are intelligent, you . . . eh? Harikeśa: You are the intelligent one, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Now, what do you think this idea? Harikeśa: No, it's wonderful. Prabhupāda: Yes, do that. Harikeśa: In Vṛndāvana I saw one bull, just goes around in the circle all day and makes the water come up on these little catchers. And then it goes . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, so many means there are, watering. Harikeśa: The whole field. *Prabhupāda: Yes. People have lost the program. These rascals, they draw all these men to manufacture Goodyear tire and eat stone. This is going on. Modern man, they draw all these man, "Come on, I shall pay you 20 rupees daily. Prepare Goodyear tire, and eat stone. Take paper. Purchase stone. That's all. This is going on. What brain they will have? Twenty rupees they get, and they spend ten rupees for wine and five rupees for cigarette, and fooding, say five rupees. No ghee , no milk. Soul*-killing civilization. And against this soul-killing civilization, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hmm, what you wanted to say? Devotee: This . . . your Dr. Ghosh, where he is staying . . . Prabhupāda: Mm. Devotee: We were there this afternoon for a program, and all their land is so green, and they are growing vegetables by a patch no bigger than this mattress that you are sitting. They are working one, planting, then growing another. Just a small piece, then planting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: They have some way for the water to go to . . . Prabhupāda: You should do like that here, in our land. Do like that. If they can do here, some few miles away . . . Harikeśa: We can do. Prabhupāda: . . . you can do it. Do it immediately. See how they are doing. So much land, why it should remain vacant? So combinedly immediately begin. Hmm? So how long you are staying here? Harikeśa: Till Sunday morning. Prabhupāda: Oh. So your business is complete or . . . Harikeśa: No, almost. Prabhupāda: So, give him all help. Haṁsadūta: Yes, people are . . . Prabhupāda: He is doing very nice there, and he'll do very nice. Haṁsadūta: One thing I thought it would be good if Your Divine Grace would write a letter making him the GBC, so that he can act with full authority. Prabhupāda: I'll give full authority. Write letter; I shall sign. Yes. You have full authority. Write letter, I'll sign. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Harikeśa: By your talking, I'm also thinking we should have a farm in Germany. I know . . . *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not? Everywhere. I myself, when I go to the farm, I forget whether it is India or Germany or France. I forget. The land is there. Sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī . We get everything from that. I have several times said that why they make this distinction, "This is France," "This is India," "This is . . ."? Everywhere the God's land. Why these rascals make division, I do not understand. Every land belongs to Kṛṣṇa, and you are sons of Kṛṣṇa. Let us live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. All rascals, mūḍha . There is rain now and then fall in Europe? Harikeśa: Yes, now it's very much. Haṁsadūta: Now it's too late. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: Now it's too late. Harikeśa: I mean, it wasn't there, but now it's so much. Prabhupāda: Hmm. But God is giving hint, that if "Rascal, it is in My hand. I can keep you in starvation to death." The man is dull brain. Anyway, I am anxious to learn why so many people are suffering. They have become all gray. Throughout whole France I saw. From Paris to Valencay I went. Gray. These people are not lazy, but there was no water. They utilize every inch land for agricultural purpose. At least I saw in France. Then maybe everywhere in Europe. They are not lazy fellow. There is organization, government organization, here. People, they . . . anyway, let us show some example. Immediately make program. You have seen, yes? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: And you are expert. Do it immediately. If there is requires some money, we shall pay. Fill up. What is the difficulty in filling up this tank? Mahāṁśa: I'm not still understanding which tank you are . . . because there are many tanks . . . Devotees: . . . (indistinct) Harikeśa: . . . it's empty. Mahāṁśa: No one ever swim in here. We took out water to water the fields. Prabhupāda: So why it is empty? Have it filled up. Mahāṁśa: How to fill? It has to come by itself. The water comes from the recuperation from the soil, so it is not in our hands to fill it. It just comes by itself slowly. It takes six days. If we empty the well it takes takes six days to fill it. Prabhupāda: No, no. By the . . . by digging a well or something you cannot . . . Mahāṁśa: If we do a boring, then that's . . . the well can be filled. We have a pump and we can fill it. But now, as it is, it's fifty feet deep. Prabhupāda: Why not make boring? Mahāṁśa: That is my plan. That is what I was telling . . . Prabhupāda: Why plan? Why do it now? Mahāṁśa: Yes. Now . . . Prabhupāda: Keep it always filled up. Harikeśa: He's saying he has the money. Mahāṁśa: Yes, I was thinking before you go, we should get the rigs coming here and putting on the whole . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): Tomorrow we should go to that place. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Devotee (3): It's the first business. We should go to that place and have him come, start the pool. Prabhupāda: Water required. Fill up with water and distribute water and produce, huge quantity, whatever can be produced. Sugarcane, rice, these are very valuable commodity at the present moment. Produce. And sugarcane means the upper portion will be the food for the cow. Mahāṁśa: Even rice. Prabhupāda: Even . . . oh, yes. Very, very practic . . . we want some, same, food. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Bhūtāni means both animal and men. Animals should be well fed. Not only human being, but animal also. Otherwise, how he'll work? Don't use tractor. Use this bulls. Otherwise there will be a problem, how to engage the bulls. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Engage them for transport, for plowing. Mahāṁśa: We should not get a tractor? Prabhupāda: No. When you have got bulls, why should you get . . .? Mahāṁśa: We have only 8 pairs of bulls. Prabhupāda: Yes, and other bulls have been eaten up. Now we stop that eating. No, if you need, you can purchase tractor. But as far as possible try to avoid, and engage the bulls. Otherwise it will be problems. The Europeans have invented tractors, and the bull is a problem. Therefore they must be sent to the slaughterhouse. So we can not create that problem. How the bull should be utilized? They should be used for transport and plowing. (background noise) What is this turmoil? Haṁsadūta: I think they are distributing prasādam . *Mahāṁśa: Now they have finished the slide*-show, and they are sitting down for prasādam . Prabhupāda: All right. Go and see it is done nicely. Announce that, "Tomorrow we shall prepare such and such nice preparations. Please, you are especially invited." In this way attract. (end) (Conversation on farm management) *Prabhupāda: Make very nice, palatable prasādam . We shall spend for that. Why miserly? There is no need of miserly. You are going to earn money by agricultural produce, so how the money will be utilized? It will be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. By prasādam , by chanting, by drama, somehow or other bring them. That is our mission. Congregational chanting. Always festival, and we shall spend for that. Immediately arrange. If there is scarcity of money, I shall pay, but from . . . bring them, somehow or other. Tomorrow I want to see at least 500 men. Make arrangement like that. I came here to see that, not to sit down in a room peacefully. So there also we shall inform the meeting that we want to propagate this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement town to town, village to village, by attracting them with musical demonstration of saṅkīrtana , dramatic play, movie, prasādam . Somehow or other they should come to the temple, to the paṇḍāl , and congregationally chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , hear Bhagavad-gītā , Bhāgavatam . For this purpose, whatever expenditure is required, that you should collect and spend. This is the scheme of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. You must come here, question, understand, and vigorous propaganda should be inaugurated town to town, village to village. Those who are educated, to them distribution of literature. The school, college, library, institution, university, by scholarly presentation. That is wanted. What is that? Jagadīśa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Doesn't matter. Understand the idea? Jagadīśa: Oh, yes. *Prabhupāda: To attract them to really nice prasādam , palatable food, we shall spend. And we shall earn also by literature, produce, as they're earning. Where is the difficulty? We shall take contribution from rich persons. We shall earn ourself, and spend it to give them very nice prasādam . Gradually when they come, when you engage them in producing their own food, own shelter, own cloth . . . this should be organized. And they'll be glad. As soon as they understand, they will be glad to do. And they will stop all this nonsense: illicit sex and meat*-eating. Then their life will be purified, and they'll make more and more advancement in this path. That is perfection. That you want. Is it clear or not? Jagadīśa: Oh, yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes? This is our mission. If you give them very nice, palatable prasādam . . . they go to hotel from miles together to take some palatable foodstuff—restaurant, hotel. And we cannot give nice kṛṣṇa*-prasādam ? Why? Why you cannot give? Arrange like that, first class. Simply for eating they will come. Immediately do it. Jagadīśa: I have a question, whether we should always give them khicuṛi or whether we should . . . Prabhupāda: Give them nice prasādam by which they are attracted. It doesn't matter khicuṛi, purī, kachorī, lāḍdu . Whatever they are attracted, we must give. Jagadīśa: Halavā . *Prabhupāda: Whatever that will attract them. That I want. Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . Don't waste; give them nice, palatable foodstuff. Give them one finest kachorī , one nice samosā , two purīs , they will be very glad. Make very, very nice prasādam . What is this rubbish, the dog cannot eat even? They have done a great mistake, all rascals. I am very angry. I say that if you have no money, I'll spend, I will give you money. Why should you make such tenth class, and no food at all. It is to be thrown away. Simply waste of grains and energy. Engage nice professional cook, prepare nice foodstuff. I shall spend for that if you have no money. Gentlemen who are coming immediately should be offered some prasādam , "Please come here, take: purī, kachorī, samosā ." Arrangement should be like that. The doctors came, he comes out of love, but there is no prasādam . Huh? What is this? Jagadīśa: Sorry? Prabhupāda: The doctor comes, but we could not supply him prasādam at 12 o'clock. Jagadīśa: Today? Prabhupāda: Not today, the other day. Jagadīśa: Oh. Prabhupāda: Prasādam is not yet ready, you also said. After eating I have no . . . not yet ready. What is this? At 2 o'clock? As soon as they want. The Vṛndāvana also, the same thing I told that. Now they are doing? Prasādam , as soon as they want, they'll must feed some prasādam according to the position of the person. We shall spend for that. I am not hesitating to spend money. Why the arrangement is lacking? Immediately arrange for theirs and invite them. Don't make it childish. Where are the leaders? They are now engaged there? Jagadīśa: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: Our leaders are engaged there? Jagadīśa: At the kīrtana ? Prabhupāda: Huh. Jagadīśa: Mahāṁśa is there. I don't know where Haṁsadūta is. Prabhupāda: So anyway, this is my instruction. We have written and discussed and go. And I want to see tomorrow many thousand people. If you cannot make attractive, why they will come? Then it is failure. Make attractive. Whatever money is required, I shall pay. Simply theory will not help. Make such prasādam as people will come and be mad after it. Jagadīśa: Yes, we can . . . Prabhupāda: Just explain. You have taken in writing? Jagadīśa: It's on tape. Prabhupāda: So go and discuss. They must be attracted. Jagadīśa: I see. Prabhupāda: Otherwise it is failure. (break) Mahāṁśa: . . . who came, but . . . Prabhupāda: You are satisfied today? Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Mahāṁśa: No. The people also, there was no advertisement of today there would be a program. Prabhupāda: So whatever it is required, you do it. Mahāṁśa: So on tomorrow, I will do the advertisement and show them . . . Prabhupāda: Give them very, very first class prasādam . Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They will come for the tongue. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Today the ḍāl is . . . they liked it very spicy. Prabhupāda: That they like, I do not know what they like. But you prepare they should come and eat. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I do not know what they like. Mahāṁśa: There is a lot of sabjī in the ḍāl also, today, and it's hot. They like it. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, whatever they like, the villagers, you prepare. If you have no money, I shall pay money. Mahāṁśa: Okay. Prabhupāda: But attract them. They will come here to eat, "Oh, very nice thing." That is wanted. I made this movement successful simply by Love Feast. They did not come to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. They came for Love Feast. From very beginning, when I was in 26 Second Avenue, every Sunday I was giving nice foodstuff, at least 200 men. Daily at least more than fifteen, twenty. I was cooking myself. That is the beginning of my movement. The cāpāṭis with Kīrtanānanda, first of all he was taking one and two, then twelve. (laughter) There was another boy . . . Devotees: Stryādhīśa. *Prabhupāda: Stryādhīśa. Twenty*-two cāpāṭis . (laughter) "Stryādhīśa, can I give you?" "Yes." I gave him four. Finished. "Stryādhīśa, can I give you?" "Yes." (laughter) Very nice boy. He was eating twenty-two. One day there was no money, so he immediately went and came after some time with some money. "And where did you go?" The shoe booth. He polished shoes and brought some money. (laughs) (laughter) In this way, this was developed. Give them prasādam , nice prasādam . Any gentleman comes, immediately there must be some prasādam . Engage first-class cook. Spend money; don't be a miserly. If you have no money, I will pay. So long I am living, I shall go on paying. You don't be miserly. Bring devotees for eating and then chanting, then cinema, then lecture. In this way you have to develop. Not that people will come, "Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is there, let us go there." They will not come. What do they know about Hare Kṛṣṇa? They will come, "Oh, there is nice, good prasādam distributed." Mahāṁśa: Some people I know, they said that yesterday the prasādam was not nice, and there was . . . *Prabhupāda: Not nice—it is not eatable even by the dogs! But you are less than the dogs if you prepare such thing. I was surprised. You allowed a sweeper to cook. I was surprised. We have distribution prasādam , not dog's food. Such rascals are here. You do not know. I do not wish to discuss anymore on this point. You have murdered the whole thing in two days. Now if possible, bring them, give them first*-class prasādam , very palatable. Foodstuff means even one has no appetite, he'll eat. That is food. Not that even one has got appetite, he'll forget. That is not food. So do like that, and for money produce, use cane, sugarcane, rice. We shall spend for that. Don't spoil money, but do like businessman. He invests money, he gets a return. Spend it for Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. There is no question of becoming a miser. I never did it. When I have got a farthing, I want to spend it, immediately spend. Oh, what I have made this BBT? Immediately fifty percent for printing and fifty percent for spreading this. Why don't you understand what I want to do? So whatever is done is done; now do it very nicely. I want to see at least 1,000 men coming from the villages. There are 20,000 men here. You cannot attract them? Mahāṁśa: Can we announce that you will give darśana on the stage for five minutes? Prabhupāda: Huh? Mahāṁśa: Can we announce . . .? Prabhupāda: Nobody will come for my darśana , but if you want, I'll go. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult task. Mahāṁśa: Because they are all very anxious to see you, because they've all been . . . Prabhupāda: All right, I shall go. What is that? The difficulty is I would have gone very gladly, but they do not understand my language, neither Hindi nor English. Mahāṁśa: It can be translated in Telugu. Prabhupāda: Then I shall go. I shall go. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I shall go. I shall speak. Give them very nice food. From tomorrow I will . . . if there are rascals, you bring. I will pay nice cook. Make varieties, very palatable food. Kichranna, puṣpānna , rice, there are so many preparations. Paramānna . You do not make paramānna, kichranna, puṣpānna. There are varieties of rice preparation. They know, the southern people, with curd, yogurt . . . Mahāṁśa: Tamarind. *Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamarind, so many preparations. So make like that. Why dog eating? They are not dogs. You cannot expect, because you are giving some dog*-eatable food, they will come. There must be one first-class cook, and all our men should learn. There's no need of simply keeping unduly, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa," and sleeping. We don't want such men. Make a show. And do not know anything how to preach. Useless. The householder, the women should be engaged in cooking. Their children should be gathered together. One man . . . I have said many times, all the children should be taken in a room by one woman, and others should be engaged in the cooking department. I have seen it. Your country, America, when they go to church, all the childrens are gathered together in a room. Is it not? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: And one or two men take care. And others, they go. Similarly, children they must have, so . . . not that everyone is children busy, "I cannot do." They cannot do if they are busy with children. So what is the use of keeping such householders? Let them live outside, earn their money. Woman business is to cleanse, to cut the vegetables, to cook. What is this? They're simply busy with the children? And they have started their mission for maintaining some children and useless women. You should organize. Rādhikāra pakka anna vividha byañjana. All the gopīs, they are engaged for cooking for Kṛṣṇa. Mother Yaśodā will call them, "You young girls, you can cook very nicely." Do you understand Bengali? Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Rādhikā with Her friends, they are cooking. And they cook so nicely that parama ānande kṛṣṇa korena bhojana : with great pleasure Kṛṣṇa is eating. And that we have to distribute. Not dog's food. You do not know what is the purpose of this mission. Don't do it. Here is a good chance; *don't spoil it. Produce huge. Make profit. You spend for Kṛṣṇa. Train all devotees how to cook. All women. Don't distribute dog's eatable things. Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . *Kṛṣṇa is taking with great pleasure. That prasādam you have to distribute. Not that dog is rejecting and you have to distribute that prasādam . Why do you think like that? This prasādam , this so*-called, rubbish thing which is rejected by dog, and you are offering to the human being. You do it. If you have no money I shall pay. There is no question of scarcity of money. Don't spoil money, but spend for real purpose, that's all. And you arrange for huge agricultural. Whatever is required, water, we shall arrange for that. Labor, everything. And if you perform yajña , there will be rain. Anyway, I asked you the other day to fill up the tank. What is the difficulty? Mahāṁśa: Which tank? Prabhupāda: That big tank. Well. Big well. Devotee (1): Just here. The one that's been pumped empty. Anyway, the big empty one that we . . . Prabhupāda: But you were surprised. You do not know that we have got a big well here? Mahāṁśa: The one that we drink water from? Hari-śauri: The big square one. Devotee: Behind the house. Prabhupāda: Why it is empty? Hmm? Mahāṁśa: Fill it for what, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Why the well is empty? There is no water. He's surprised, as if dropping from the sky. You do not know that well? Mahāṁśa: It's just a tank. Prabhupāda: Tank, yes. Why it is empty? Mahāṁśa: Because I didn't know what purpose it will serve by filling it. Prabhupāda: Filling it, we shall pump and distribute water. You shall fit pipes, and pump water and distribute to the field, so there will be no scarcity of water, and produce. What it was meant, you do not know? Mahāṁśa: No, right now, that field does not need water to . . . Prabhupāda: Then why you are not growing there something? Mahāṁśa: The paddy is drying over there, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mahāṁśa: The paddy, the rice, is drying. Prabhupāda: No, no, there are so many other fields. Why they are empty? Mahāṁśa: Oh, we have to go and do boring wells and . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore that means water supply. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that's what I have to arrange now. Prabhupāda: Hah. So why . . .? When you will arrange? Arrange it immediately. Mahāṁśa: Yes, before . . . Prabhupāda: And that is also one of the water pool to solve water problem, the tank. Do you follow what I say? Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You fill up the tank, and by pumping through pipe, you distribute water. Jagadīśa: The viaducts are already there, troughs. Mahāṁśa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: If we have got water filled up in that tank, we can water so many lands. We shall spend for that. We shall . . . pipe line, pumping. If you have so much land we can produce gold. But you have no brain. Produce gold, get money and spend it for Kṛṣṇa. This is wanted. Not simply planning and talking. The world is suffering for want of right planning. Otherwise, there is no question of suffering. Pūrṇam idam , complete it is, everything complete. That is the Vedic version. Why it is incomplete? Incomplete means these rascals. Supplying the necessities of life. (break) Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Kṛṣṇa does not want to see that we are starving for want of food. That He does not want to see. But because you have come to the material world, you have to work hard. Then you'll get your food. That is the material world. Śarīra*-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ ( BG 3.8), Kṛṣṇa says. Very . . . if you do not work, then you cannot get food. Simply work together. Sarva-kāma-dughā mahī (SB 1.10.4). And you get from the land. You have got land. You get anything from the land. The land must be moist, then you get everything. That we want to show. Hmm? What do you think? Land is . . . Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Eh? You are intelligent, you . . . eh? Harikeśa: You are the intelligent one, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Now, what do you think this idea? Harikeśa: No, it's wonderful. Prabhupāda: Yes, do that. Harikeśa: In Vṛndāvana I saw one bull, just goes around in the circle all day and makes the water come up on these little catchers. And then it goes . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, so many means there are, watering. Harikeśa: The whole field. *Prabhupāda: Yes. People have lost the program. These rascals, they draw all these men to manufacture Goodyear tire and eat stone. This is going on. Modern man, they draw all these man, "Come on, I shall pay you 20 rupees daily. Prepare Goodyear tire, and eat stone. Take paper. Purchase stone. That's all. This is going on. What brain they will have? Twenty rupees they get, and they spend ten rupees for wine and five rupees for cigarette, and fooding, say five rupees. No ghee , no milk. Soul*-killing civilization. And against this soul-killing civilization, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hmm, what you wanted to say? Devotee: This . . . your Dr. Ghosh, where he is staying . . . Prabhupāda: Mm. Devotee: We were there this afternoon for a program, and all their land is so green, and they are growing vegetables by a patch no bigger than this mattress that you are sitting. They are working one, planting, then growing another. Just a small piece, then planting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: They have some way for the water to go to . . . Prabhupāda: You should do like that here, in our land. Do like that. If they can do here, some few miles away . . . Harikeśa: We can do. Prabhupāda: . . . you can do it. Do it immediately. See how they are doing. So much land, why it should remain vacant? So combinedly immediately begin. Hmm? So how long you are staying here? Harikeśa: Till Sunday morning. Prabhupāda: Oh. So your business is complete or . . . Harikeśa: No, almost. Prabhupāda: So, give him all help. Haṁsadūta: Yes, people are . . . Prabhupāda: He is doing very nice there, and he'll do very nice. Haṁsadūta: One thing I thought it would be good if Your Divine Grace would write a letter making him the GBC, so that he can act with full authority. Prabhupāda: I'll give full authority. Write letter; I shall sign. Yes. You have full authority. Write letter, I'll sign. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Harikeśa: By your talking, I'm also thinking we should have a farm in Germany. I know . . . *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not? Everywhere. I myself, when I go to the farm, I forget whether it is India or Germany or France. I forget. The land is there. Sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī . We get everything from that. I have several times said that why they make this distinction, "This is France," "This is India," "This is . . ."? Everywhere the God's land. Why these rascals make division, I do not understand. Every land belongs to Kṛṣṇa, and you are sons of Kṛṣṇa. Let us live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. All rascals, mūḍha . There is rain now and then fall in Europe? Harikeśa: Yes, now it's very much. Haṁsadūta: Now it's too late. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: Now it's too late. Harikeśa: I mean, it wasn't there, but now it's so much. Prabhupāda: Hmm. But God is giving hint, that if "Rascal, it is in My hand. I can keep you in starvation to death." The man is dull brain. Anyway, I am anxious to learn why so many people are suffering. They have become all gray. Throughout whole France I saw. From Paris to Valencay I went. Gray. These people are not lazy, but there was no water. They utilize every inch land for agricultural purpose. At least I saw in France. Then maybe everywhere in Europe. They are not lazy fellow. There is organization, government organization, here. People, they . . . anyway, let us show some example. Immediately make program. You have seen, yes? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: And you are expert. Do it immediately. If there is requires some money, we shall pay. Fill up. What is the difficulty in filling up this tank? Mahāṁśa: I'm not still understanding which tank you are . . . because there are many tanks . . . Devotees: . . . (indistinct) Harikeśa: . . . it's empty. Mahāṁśa: No one ever swim in here. We took out water to water the fields. Prabhupāda: So why it is empty? Have it filled up. Mahāṁśa: How to fill? It has to come by itself. The water comes from the recuperation from the soil, so it is not in our hands to fill it. It just comes by itself slowly. It takes six days. If we empty the well it takes takes six days to fill it. Prabhupāda: No, no. By the . . . by digging a well or something you cannot . . . Mahāṁśa: If we do a boring, then that's . . . the well can be filled. We have a pump and we can fill it. But now, as it is, it's fifty feet deep. Prabhupāda: Why not make boring? Mahāṁśa: That is my plan. That is what I was telling . . . Prabhupāda: Why plan? Why do it now? Mahāṁśa: Yes. Now . . . Prabhupāda: Keep it always filled up. Harikeśa: He's saying he has the money. Mahāṁśa: Yes, I was thinking before you go, we should get the rigs coming here and putting on the whole . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): Tomorrow we should go to that place. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Devotee (3): It's the first business. We should go to that place and have him come, start the pool. Prabhupāda: Water required. Fill up with water and distribute water and produce, huge quantity, whatever can be produced. Sugarcane, rice, these are very valuable commodity at the present moment. Produce. And sugarcane means the upper portion will be the food for the cow. Mahāṁśa: Even rice. Prabhupāda: Even . . . oh, yes. Very, very practic . . . we want some, same, food. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Bhūtāni means both animal and men. Animals should be well fed. Not only human being, but animal also. Otherwise, how he'll work? Don't use tractor. Use this bulls. Otherwise there will be a problem, how to engage the bulls. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Engage them for transport, for plowing. Mahāṁśa: We should not get a tractor? Prabhupāda: No. When you have got bulls, why should you get . . .? Mahāṁśa: We have only 8 pairs of bulls. Prabhupāda: Yes, and other bulls have been eaten up. Now we stop that eating. No, if you need, you can purchase tractor. But as far as possible try to avoid, and engage the bulls. Otherwise it will be problems. The Europeans have invented tractors, and the bull is a problem. Therefore they must be sent to the slaughterhouse. So we can not create that problem. How the bull should be utilized? They should be used for transport and plowing. (background noise) What is this turmoil? Haṁsadūta: I think they are distributing prasādam . *Mahāṁśa: Now they have finished the slide*-show, and they are sitting down for prasādam . Prabhupāda: All right. Go and see it is done nicely. Announce that, "Tomorrow we shall prepare such and such nice preparations. Please, you are especially invited." In this way attract. (end) Prabhupāda: So explain the situation to them. Mahāṁśa: What happened a couple of times before over here was that some devotees became very passionate, mistreated a few village people over here, these laborers. And at that time many of the village people, from the villages, they came and they were protesting, and they made a big scene about it. One of them was Caraṇāravinda, who created a very . . . Prabhupāda: No, Caraṇāravinda is eccentric. Devotee: Too much. Mahāṁśa: And then there was Advaitācārya also. So there was very delicate situation, because these people, they . . . it may be a very little thing, you know, little thing, which does not need much propaganda or anything like that, but the village people made it very big, and all the village people came . . . Prabhupāda: Naturally they do that. Mahāṁśa: They do that. They start . . . because they have no other engagement. A little thing to excite them, then they want to become excited. Prabhupāda: In Bengal it is called tilake tāla. Tāla , a palm fruit, it is big, and tila , is the sesame. You know sesame seeds? Haṁsadūta: Sesame. Prabhupāda: Sesame, yes. That is very small. So these seeds, sesame seed, is called tila . Tila lava , and they make it tāla . Instead of tila , it becomes tāla , and then big mess. Tilake tāla . The fact was tila , but they called it tāla . Mahāṁśa: So that was happening. Then the other thing is that these people, they are very innocent people, and they are very superstitious also. So when they see foreigners, they immediately become a little afraid. And there is some kind of a complex that comes on them and it makes it very difficult for the foreigners to communicate with these people. This is what I have seen happening. It is very difficult to commu . . . now this is what I have experienced since last two, three days also. When Tejiyas was trying to get this garden around here done, but the laborers could not get the message across. They were doing something else, and then the blame was coming on me. I never instructed them at all for doing anything. I never took them away from the work at all. I was amazed and I was surprised to hear that I was accused of taking away the laborers from Tejiyas and put them on some other work which I had no concern at all. So this is what was troubling me today when I was thinking that, "How is it that there was this misunderstanding which has caused anxiety in so many devotees?" So this communication gap is going to be a problem which has to be solved. And for that . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, this is the explanation of the situation? You . . .? Haṁsadūta: You experienced. Prabhupāda: Yes. So how to adjust these things now? Do it. Mahāṁśa: What I would suggest, Prabhupāda, is that I could stay here, and whatever work we have to do, we sit together in the morning or in the night and we decide, "Tomorrow we have to do so much. We need so much labor for vegetables. We need so much labor for this, this." We make up a whole schedule of work for the next day. And in the morning laborers come and Tejiyas, who has experience in agriculture, he can show how this has to be done, how that . . . Prabhupāda: And he can speak Telugu also. Mahāṁśa: Yes. And I can be there to see that there is proper communication. And then after ten o'clock, because laborers start work early morning, so at ten o'clock, then I can go to Hyderabad and do official work for the day, seeing the government people and things like that. Prabhupāda: So what do you think? Eh? Haṁsadūta: That's good. Prabhupāda: That is all right? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Do it like that. Tejiyas: We should meet not late in the evening; in the afternoon, so that the . . . if we need more laborers, they have to be informed previously. We can't inform them in the morning. We have to inform them the previous day. In the evening someone has to go to their village or whatever and tell them how many people we need, because each day is going to be a little different. As soon as we get the water, we're going to need many, many laborers. *Mahāṁśa: Yes. That's how it would be, if we could get permanent laborers. That's another thing I experienced, that when these village laborers come, they come at nine o'clock, nine*-thirty, they work at their own speed and then, at five-thirty, they see the sun. I was amazed how they find the exact time, but they do it by the sun's movements. Exactly at five-thirty they will stop their work and go. But I have seen our laborers who stay here on our land, they work from five-thirty in the morning and they work all day, all the way to the night. Tejiyas: There are some people here from the local village. They are working also nicely. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Tejiyas: I think that Ānandamaya, he is . . . Prabhupāda: So this is good idea. In the evening you sit together, make program and execute it. Tejiyas: In the morning. Prabhupāda: That's all. Haṁsadūta: There's one more point that Tejiyas made. That's about the outside workers, he was saying, from Kerala. Tejiyas: We should also be careful because . . . about enmity also. Because I've lived in the villagers' houses for two years, and I've seen in different cases where if an outsider is there. These Kerala people, they are also considered outsiders. These villagers, they regard them as being different. So they are actually even getting more requisites than the local people. We should try and encourage the local people in working. They may not in the beginning work so hard, but we should encourage them that this is their project. Mahāṁśa: Local people will always be working because we will never have a staff to be enough for all our work. Like, we may have twenty, thirty families staying here, and I have seen that the people who are staying in these villages, they will not come and stay over here, because they are staying just around here; they have their own house. They will come and work here, they will participate and everything, but they won't come and stay here. They have their houses outside here. But the people from different villages, a little away, who have no home, who are helpless, they will come and stay and they will be very loyal. If we give them food and we give them clothing, they will be very loyal to us. They will become like our full supporters. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Naturally. Naturally. Mahāṁśa: There is two men here who are like that because they have no home. They were staying on the street and they were working on the construction. So I said: "Come here." And then we gave them food . . . Tejiyas: That Mobhu? Mahāṁśa: Mebub Shah. He's a Muslim, but he's so loyal. He's the best man. And then Puru and Hanuman too. These three people, they are very loyal and they are trustworthy. These people in the villages, they tend . . . because they have their home there, so sometimes they want something for their home, so they will steal. And if some other village man steals, he will not stop him. He will say: "All right," because if he stops him, then in his village there will be trouble for him. See? So he will encourage his other villagers to steal. But these men, if they see some villagers stealing, they will stop him. This has happened. Prabhupāda: This is natural. So how to deal with this? *Mahāṁśa: So we have both. We can get outsiders to come and stay here who we can give prasādam , make them chant and give them mahā*-prasādam . They love it. In the morning . . . we used to give them a little mahā-prasādam in the morning. They used to like it very much. Like that, we gain their confidence. *Prabhupāda: We shall like that they will come here and stay and remain our twenty*-four hours' son. That is very good also. Mahāṁśa: The only thing is that in the beginning, because they do not know us very well, they will demand some salary. I told you previously that now I am paying them hundred rupees and 125 rupees for family. Prabhupāda: So why 125? Hundred rupees sufficient. If they are eating and we are giving shelter, then a hundred rupees sufficient. Mahāṁśa: Hundred rupees . . . if they have a family, then his wife works also and then his children who are grown up, they all work. Everyone works. Prabhupāda: So they'll also work. So that you have to decide. Manage so that there is no misunderstanding. Simply management required. So you . . . the best thing is that you sit together . . . Tejiyas: Without fail we have to meet every evening. There shouldn't be any . . . without fail, every evening we should meet. Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be all right. Tejiyas: There shouldn't be many interruptions. Otherwise then it becomes a botheration. Haṁsadūta: One question I have, Prabhupāda. Yesterday, day before yesterday, we were discussing about the prasāda cooking. Prabhupāda: So if they bring one nice cook . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, well, this evening I was just over there, and I noticed some of the carpenters are cooking, and I don't know who the other people are. Prabhupāda: Why? Mahāṁśa: They're not cooking for the feast. They're cooking their own thing. Haṁsadūta: No, no, no. They were cutting up our vegetables which are going to be cooked and served to the public. Mahāṁśa: No. Haṁsadūta: Yes, right over there by the fire. Prabhupāda: No uninitiated person should cook. Brāhmaṇa cook. Mahāṁśa: What about professional cooks? Prabhupāda: Real brāhmaṇa . Mahāṁśa: Professional cooks? Prabhupāda: Profes . . .? They are brāhmaṇas . Mahāṁśa: Yes, but they . . . even though they are brāhmaṇas , they have this habit of smoking, and if we try to find a professional cook who doesn't smoke, it is very difficult. Prabhupāda: Hmm. As far as possible, our men should cook, a professional man who is in good habit, who has promised that they will not do this smoking. We have to manage somehow. Mahāṁśa: As far as our devotees cooking, it's practically impossible. We have tried so hard. They just can't do it. Yesterday two of the boys tried to help, and the rice was not cooked because it was not done. And he burned his leg. The water fell on his leg, and he couldn't handle the pots properly and he got . . . now the poor boy, he is suffering. He's got a wounded leg, one of the German boys, the one with long hair. So our devotees, they are not . . . this boy, Bengali boy, Dilid, he's good. He can do it but he needs at least four or five men to help. Tejiyas: He was a professional cook, but he's not . . . he can't do it himself. He needs too much . . . Mahāṁśa: He needs at least four people to help. It's a big cooking, so it's also very difficult for one man to do, and nobody wants to help the cooking because it's so hot, the smoke goes in the eyes and it's very troublesome. So nobody wants to help in the cooking, devotees. Prabhupāda: Not willing. They are not willing. Mahāṁśa: They're not willing to help in the kitchen because it is very hot, very hard, the eyes get burned, things like that. So this one Bengali boy, he's a very good cook. He can do it very nicely but he wants help. And if no one helps, then he refuses to cook. And if you press him, then he runs away. Yesterday he tried to run away four times because we were trying to press him to do the cooking. Prabhupāda: No, no, cooking alone, it is not possible. So that you have to do. Find out some men. Cooperate. Otherwise how it is possible? Haṁsadūta: Yes, therefore I'm asking you about hired people, whether hired people are good. In my experience . . . Prabhupāda: So if they are . . . if our men not available, then you must hire, hire people. But not these carpenters or like that. Mahāṁśa: No, we should get professional cooks who are really good, like this man who cooked today. Prabhupāda: Yes. And this man is coming. He can bring. Mahāṁśa: Yes, he himself will come. But he will have the habit of smoking, and I think we can at the most regulate his smoking, "If you want to smoke, you go somewhere far away and smoke, and before you start cooking you must wash yourself, have a bath, and then do the cooking." Prabhupāda: Yes. What can be done? Ne māmā che kānā māmā : "If there is no uncle, one blind uncle is all right." So the matter is now clear. You do it and develop it. Jagadīśa: There is one confusion in my mind, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Mahāṁśa said that the local villagers will not be inclined to come here and live because they are living just outside. But my impression was, from hearing you speak, was that everyone, whether they're living just outside or a long distance outside, they are suffering from material existence. They're having to struggle for existence. They're being taxed by the government. There's so many problems to maintain themself. And every living being in the material world is struggling to maintain himself. But if we offer them a house here and some work and we give them all food, clothing, and . . . Prabhupāda: That is our aim. Jagadīśa: That's our aim. Prabhupāda: That is our aim. So you can engage some men to cut the hill for blocks and gradually develop house. Tejiyas: These Badapur, they are good men. Prabhupāda: Like this room, yes. And as far as possible, induce them to come and live here. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Yes, that can be done. But family attachment . . . you see, these people, they have also family attachment, just like karmīs . So they are not so willing to . . . because their whole family . . . the whole village is like one family. It's like one family. They are all related to each other. And they can stay. They stay. Many of them stay here overnight. Prabhupāda: Naturally everyone wants to stay at his own place. "Home, sweet home." "There is no place like home." That's a fact. That is psychology. They will like to stay there. But if they have got facility to live here with family, they may come. Mahāṁśa: I was thinking we can make their house just like our house. If they are living right on our border, we can go to their house, tell them how to make an altar and make them live like how we are living. Let them stay there but let them live a good Kṛṣṇa conscious life. Prabhupāda: They'll come gradually, not immediately. Immediately, the psychology is, they have got attachment for their house. It may be worse house, but still, their attachment . . . that is natural. Long, long ago, when I was child practically, I went with my father in the village. So one man from the village was serving us. So my father, "This boy is nice. So why not take him to Calcutta?" So one day he was absent. It was dropping and . . . so I went in the interior of the village and I saw that his house was broken, there was no roof, and rain was falling and he was sitting, covering with a cloth. Then I told him that, "Why not come with us in Calcutta? We shall give you nice place, nice food." So his answer was, " Nā bābu ghar chere jabo nā " (chuckles), "Bābujī, I cannot go out of my home." That was his home. (laughter) This is my practical exp . . . he was sitting idly and it is dropping, and he could not come to serve. Still, that is his home, and he cannot leave home, that " Bābu ghar chere jabo nā ." That is psychology. It may be very worse condition; still, nobody wants to give up "Home, sweet home." That is natural psychology. So you have to manage. You see that why they, these Delhi passenger clerks . . . this morning I was telling that son was asking mother, "Who is this man?" His father, and he had never seen. "You have seen father." No, rather, he had no chance to see father because when the father comes back from the office it is night, ten o'clock or more than that. That time the son is sleeping. And again he has to go early in the morning. That time also, son is sleeping. So he did not know. So one Sunday, when he's grown up, he is asking his mother, "Who is this man?" "So this man . . ." Not only in India—everywhere. I have seen in New York from the other island? What is that? Haṁsadūta: Long Island. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Long Island. Prabhupāda: Long Island. They are coming two hours in the ferry, three hours in the bus. They are going to the office. Eight hours there. Then five hours and eight hours, thirteen hours, again five hours. Then thirteen and . . . eighteen hours. And for six hours they have got home. "Home, sweet home." Mahāṁśa: I knew people coming from Poona to Bombay to work. Prabhupāda: Just see. Mahāṁśa: All the way from Poona. Devotee: One and the same thing. *Prabhupāda: The home attachment is so great. These Delhi passengers, they are coming, hanging, and there are so many accidents daily. And few hours he will live with wife. That is his home. And whole other, out of twenty*-four hours, seventeen hours are outside, and maybe seven hours at home. But still, he'll come home. The home attachment is very big. Therefore we have to create attachment for this hari-saṅkīrtana . If you create that attachment, then they will give up home attachment, try life, to live here. Tathāsakti . You have to train them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in such a way. Then: *Tathāsakti . Then they will be attached here. Spiritually if you enlighten them, then they'll be attached. They'll voluntarily say they are accepting here. The chanting, chanting, then . . . this is the beginning that, "You chant and take prasādam ." Then ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Gradually the heart will be cleansed, and gradually they will be elevated to the platform of āsakti . Then they will not want money, they will not want . . . then they will live here, work, just you are doing. That stage, that requires little advancement. Therefore I say this kīrtana program must be continued. Then ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam . As you make the heart cleansed, they become more and more advanced. And then this stage of āsakti that, "This is . . . we shall live here." Just like we have given up our hearth and home and wife and children. We have given up that attachment. This attachment, practical. That is . . . you cannot expect immediately. That is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). When one gets better attachment, then they can give up this nasty attachment. Therefore we have to continue this saṅkīrtana . This is the psychology. But there is very great prospect to develop this place, and you have got experience. If you can develop, it will be very nice example. Once successful here, we can introduce this program. And India will be easier because they are by nature inclined to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will be easier. The kīrtana must be there. Otherwise, why we have to take so much responsibility? Tejiyas: Last night it was very hard. Again, no one was coming to the kīrtana . Prabhupāda: Eh? Tejiyas: These persons who are staying here in the garb of devotees, if they don't come . . . Mahāṁśa: Devotees. No one would come. Tejiyas: It was a great struggle. Again Jagadīśa and I and Mūrti, we were alone there, and we had to go and get people, and again they wouldn't come. Prabhupāda: So what is the use? Tejiyas: This Kṛṣṇan wouldn't come, and this other boy never comes. They should be made to leave. Otherwise they must follow the program. Kīrtana is so nice. All day we may be doing something. The only relief we get, from kīrtana . Prabhupāda: No, without kīrtana , it is . . . Mahāṁśa: Refreshes you completely. Prabhupāda: If you stop kīrtana , then it is ordinary. Mahāṁśa: Work. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tejiyas: And these people are very enthusiastic for kīrtana . Prabhupāda: So our men should be, those who are here, they must be very enthusiastic. And the paṇḍāl , what is this play paṇḍāl ? This paṇḍāl ? It is very small. Make a big paṇḍāl . Mahāṁśa: But if you want every day, we should buy one. Prabhupāda: Buy one. Mahāṁśa: Good one. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Make it over there, permanent place. With permanent speakers, permanent lights and . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Tejiyas: We should have every night. Prabhupāda: Do. Mahāṁśa: Prabhupāda wants us to continue every day kīrtana and prasādam . Prabhupāda: So do this and purchase. What is the price? Mahāṁśa: I'll find out tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it nicely, enthusiastically. Everything will be success. So any other question to discuss? Haṁsadūta: I don't know if this is the time, but I think this project should have a separate account. Mahāṁśa: Yes. It will have an account in the name of the Trust. The Venkatesh . . . I mean ISKCON Venkateshwara Trust. So as soon as we register tomorrow, day after tomorrow we'll open an account in that name. With how many signees? Prabhupāda: Make three, you three. Mahāṁśa: Joint. Prabhupāda: Out of three, two. Out of three, any two will do. That's all. Mahāṁśa: And amount which will be given from Your Divine Grace will be a loan towards the Trust, which will be paid back later on. Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyāpur account you take. I ask them to transfer to this account. And when you want to pay . . . Mahāṁśa: Yes, then they transfer Prabhupāda: That's all. That will be . . . do that. So open account. Haṁsadūta: And also that lakh of rupees which I gave him last year. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his. Haṁsadūta: The temple should pay it. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that one lakh rupees I will pay from the four and a half lakhs . You told me to put it everything into your account. So should I put the four and a half lakhs into your account, or should I put one lakh in this account and then three and a half . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, give him. That's all. Mahāṁśa: Anyway. Okay. Prabhupāda: Otherwise give me, and I give him. Haṁsadūta: It was meant for here. See, we gave it from Germany for the project. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that is understood. Tejiyas: So that can go into this one. Mahāṁśa: Yes. It can go directly into this account. Prabhupāda: So immediately open account, and whatever minimum you want, I will give you. That's all. And three signatories. Out of three, two. Yes. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, if we're going to have a permanent paṇḍāl for visitors, why don't we build some simple kīrtana hall where the people can also take prasādam , something like they built in Māyāpur but not . . . Prabhupāda: Do it . . . do it gradually. For the time being have a paṇḍāl . Yes. Haṁsadūta: Yes, for the time being. That could be used for kīrtana and prasādam . Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: That you told me just now, at that site where we have the permanent temple. Prabhupāda: That, tomorrow morning we shall see and make a . . . Mahāṁśa: A design. *Haṁsadūta: One more question. When . . . the first time you were here two years ago, you suggested that we should have Gaura*-Nitāi Deity immediately. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nṛsiṁha*-deva, Gaura-Nitāi and Jagannātha. Haṁsadūta: Right here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Shall we begin right here? We have this little place . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. *Haṁsadūta: I have a set of Gaura*-Nitāis with me from the bus, but They're smaller. Prabhupāda: So immediately install. Immediately. Yes. And have regular kīrtana and ārati . Deity must be there. That will be our engagement. That's all right. Enthusiasm. Real thing is enthusiasm, utsāhān. Dhairya , patience. And . . . Mahāṁśa: Determination. Prabhupāda: Determination: "Yes, I must do it." And here, if you make determination, everything is there. Everything is there. Such a vast land, and capital Kṛṣṇa will give. Land, labor. Labor is there. So simply organization required, that's all. Then everything is all right. Make use the production. First of all eat yourself as much as you . . . and then trade. Get money. People will be surprised at the organization. And there are twenty thousand men all round? Mahāṁśa: No, that is . . . just in very near villages there's about eight thousand. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So if you can make one thousand person interested, then you'll be successful. So you can engage some worker for cutting the rocks. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Tomorrow I am arranging. Tejiyas: In this Dabilpur there's some very good workers. I saw in the village. They have so many places where there are rocks stacked up. And they have many craftsmen in that Dabilpur. That's the main village in this area. They have them there, just near Mr . . . that Anjaya Reddy's house. Prabhupāda: This house, the blocks are prepared, you make huts and engage some men to make that tile. Mahāṁśa: Tiles. Round tiles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: The roof tiles. Mahāṁśa: Yes, just like the ones which are in the temple. Prabhupāda: Then locally you get everything. You haven't got to get from outside. Eh? Jagadīśa: Clay roof tiles. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very nice, very strong and very comfortable and simple. (sounds of children) So the villagers have come? Mahāṁśa: Yes, it sounds like it. Tejiyas: Their children. By themselves they were doing this kīrtana . Jagadīśa: Is somebody leading kīrtana now? Tejiyas: The children. Jagadīśa: We should go. Mahāṁśa: Let's go. Prabhupāda: Sit down daily and make next program. Then it will be success. Mahāṁśa: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Prabhupāda: So explain the situation to them. Mahāṁśa: What happened a couple of times before over here was that some devotees became very passionate, mistreated a few village people over here, these laborers. And at that time many of the village people, from the villages, they came and they were protesting, and they made a big scene about it. One of them was Caraṇāravinda, who created a very . . . Prabhupāda: No, Caraṇāravinda is eccentric. Devotee: Too much. Mahāṁśa: And then there was Advaitācārya also. So there was very delicate situation, because these people, they . . . it may be a very little thing, you know, little thing, which does not need much propaganda or anything like that, but the village people made it very big, and all the village people came . . . Prabhupāda: Naturally they do that. Mahāṁśa: They do that. They start . . . because they have no other engagement. A little thing to excite them, then they want to become excited. Prabhupāda: In Bengal it is called tilake tāla. Tāla , a palm fruit, it is big, and tila , is the sesame. You know sesame seeds? Haṁsadūta: Sesame. Prabhupāda: Sesame, yes. That is very small. So these seeds, sesame seed, is called tila . Tila lava , and they make it tāla . Instead of tila , it becomes tāla , and then big mess. Tilake tāla . The fact was tila , but they called it tāla . Mahāṁśa: So that was happening. Then the other thing is that these people, they are very innocent people, and they are very superstitious also. So when they see foreigners, they immediately become a little afraid. And there is some kind of a complex that comes on them and it makes it very difficult for the foreigners to communicate with these people. This is what I have seen happening. It is very difficult to commu . . . now this is what I have experienced since last two, three days also. When Tejiyas was trying to get this garden around here done, but the laborers could not get the message across. They were doing something else, and then the blame was coming on me. I never instructed them at all for doing anything. I never took them away from the work at all. I was amazed and I was surprised to hear that I was accused of taking away the laborers from Tejiyas and put them on some other work which I had no concern at all. So this is what was troubling me today when I was thinking that, "How is it that there was this misunderstanding which has caused anxiety in so many devotees?" So this communication gap is going to be a problem which has to be solved. And for that . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, this is the explanation of the situation? You . . .? Haṁsadūta: You experienced. Prabhupāda: Yes. So how to adjust these things now? Do it. Mahāṁśa: What I would suggest, Prabhupāda, is that I could stay here, and whatever work we have to do, we sit together in the morning or in the night and we decide, "Tomorrow we have to do so much. We need so much labor for vegetables. We need so much labor for this, this." We make up a whole schedule of work for the next day. And in the morning laborers come and Tejiyas, who has experience in agriculture, he can show how this has to be done, how that . . . Prabhupāda: And he can speak Telugu also. Mahāṁśa: Yes. And I can be there to see that there is proper communication. And then after ten o'clock, because laborers start work early morning, so at ten o'clock, then I can go to Hyderabad and do official work for the day, seeing the government people and things like that. Prabhupāda: So what do you think? Eh? Haṁsadūta: That's good. Prabhupāda: That is all right? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Do it like that. Tejiyas: We should meet not late in the evening; in the afternoon, so that the . . . if we need more laborers, they have to be informed previously. We can't inform them in the morning. We have to inform them the previous day. In the evening someone has to go to their village or whatever and tell them how many people we need, because each day is going to be a little different. As soon as we get the water, we're going to need many, many laborers. *Mahāṁśa: Yes. That's how it would be, if we could get permanent laborers. That's another thing I experienced, that when these village laborers come, they come at nine o'clock, nine*-thirty, they work at their own speed and then, at five-thirty, they see the sun. I was amazed how they find the exact time, but they do it by the sun's movements. Exactly at five-thirty they will stop their work and go. But I have seen our laborers who stay here on our land, they work from five-thirty in the morning and they work all day, all the way to the night. Tejiyas: There are some people here from the local village. They are working also nicely. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Tejiyas: I think that Ānandamaya, he is . . . Prabhupāda: So this is good idea. In the evening you sit together, make program and execute it. Tejiyas: In the morning. Prabhupāda: That's all. Haṁsadūta: There's one more point that Tejiyas made. That's about the outside workers, he was saying, from Kerala. Tejiyas: We should also be careful because . . . about enmity also. Because I've lived in the villagers' houses for two years, and I've seen in different cases where if an outsider is there. These Kerala people, they are also considered outsiders. These villagers, they regard them as being different. So they are actually even getting more requisites than the local people. We should try and encourage the local people in working. They may not in the beginning work so hard, but we should encourage them that this is their project. Mahāṁśa: Local people will always be working because we will never have a staff to be enough for all our work. Like, we may have twenty, thirty families staying here, and I have seen that the people who are staying in these villages, they will not come and stay over here, because they are staying just around here; they have their own house. They will come and work here, they will participate and everything, but they won't come and stay here. They have their houses outside here. But the people from different villages, a little away, who have no home, who are helpless, they will come and stay and they will be very loyal. If we give them food and we give them clothing, they will be very loyal to us. They will become like our full supporters. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Naturally. Naturally. Mahāṁśa: There is two men here who are like that because they have no home. They were staying on the street and they were working on the construction. So I said: "Come here." And then we gave them food . . . Tejiyas: That Mobhu? Mahāṁśa: Mebub Shah. He's a Muslim, but he's so loyal. He's the best man. And then Puru and Hanuman too. These three people, they are very loyal and they are trustworthy. These people in the villages, they tend . . . because they have their home there, so sometimes they want something for their home, so they will steal. And if some other village man steals, he will not stop him. He will say: "All right," because if he stops him, then in his village there will be trouble for him. See? So he will encourage his other villagers to steal. But these men, if they see some villagers stealing, they will stop him. This has happened. Prabhupāda: This is natural. So how to deal with this? *Mahāṁśa: So we have both. We can get outsiders to come and stay here who we can give prasādam , make them chant and give them mahā*-prasādam . They love it. In the morning . . . we used to give them a little mahā-prasādam in the morning. They used to like it very much. Like that, we gain their confidence. *Prabhupāda: We shall like that they will come here and stay and remain our twenty*-four hours' son. That is very good also. Mahāṁśa: The only thing is that in the beginning, because they do not know us very well, they will demand some salary. I told you previously that now I am paying them hundred rupees and 125 rupees for family. Prabhupāda: So why 125? Hundred rupees sufficient. If they are eating and we are giving shelter, then a hundred rupees sufficient. Mahāṁśa: Hundred rupees . . . if they have a family, then his wife works also and then his children who are grown up, they all work. Everyone works. Prabhupāda: So they'll also work. So that you have to decide. Manage so that there is no misunderstanding. Simply management required. So you . . . the best thing is that you sit together . . . Tejiyas: Without fail we have to meet every evening. There shouldn't be any . . . without fail, every evening we should meet. Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be all right. Tejiyas: There shouldn't be many interruptions. Otherwise then it becomes a botheration. Haṁsadūta: One question I have, Prabhupāda. Yesterday, day before yesterday, we were discussing about the prasāda cooking. Prabhupāda: So if they bring one nice cook . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, well, this evening I was just over there, and I noticed some of the carpenters are cooking, and I don't know who the other people are. Prabhupāda: Why? Mahāṁśa: They're not cooking for the feast. They're cooking their own thing. Haṁsadūta: No, no, no. They were cutting up our vegetables which are going to be cooked and served to the public. Mahāṁśa: No. Haṁsadūta: Yes, right over there by the fire. Prabhupāda: No uninitiated person should cook. Brāhmaṇa cook. Mahāṁśa: What about professional cooks? Prabhupāda: Real brāhmaṇa . Mahāṁśa: Professional cooks? Prabhupāda: Profes . . .? They are brāhmaṇas . Mahāṁśa: Yes, but they . . . even though they are brāhmaṇas , they have this habit of smoking, and if we try to find a professional cook who doesn't smoke, it is very difficult. Prabhupāda: Hmm. As far as possible, our men should cook, a professional man who is in good habit, who has promised that they will not do this smoking. We have to manage somehow. Mahāṁśa: As far as our devotees cooking, it's practically impossible. We have tried so hard. They just can't do it. Yesterday two of the boys tried to help, and the rice was not cooked because it was not done. And he burned his leg. The water fell on his leg, and he couldn't handle the pots properly and he got . . . now the poor boy, he is suffering. He's got a wounded leg, one of the German boys, the one with long hair. So our devotees, they are not . . . this boy, Bengali boy, Dilid, he's good. He can do it but he needs at least four or five men to help. Tejiyas: He was a professional cook, but he's not . . . he can't do it himself. He needs too much . . . Mahāṁśa: He needs at least four people to help. It's a big cooking, so it's also very difficult for one man to do, and nobody wants to help the cooking because it's so hot, the smoke goes in the eyes and it's very troublesome. So nobody wants to help in the cooking, devotees. Prabhupāda: Not willing. They are not willing. Mahāṁśa: They're not willing to help in the kitchen because it is very hot, very hard, the eyes get burned, things like that. So this one Bengali boy, he's a very good cook. He can do it very nicely but he wants help. And if no one helps, then he refuses to cook. And if you press him, then he runs away. Yesterday he tried to run away four times because we were trying to press him to do the cooking. Prabhupāda: No, no, cooking alone, it is not possible. So that you have to do. Find out some men. Cooperate. Otherwise how it is possible? Haṁsadūta: Yes, therefore I'm asking you about hired people, whether hired people are good. In my experience . . . Prabhupāda: So if they are . . . if our men not available, then you must hire, hire people. But not these carpenters or like that. Mahāṁśa: No, we should get professional cooks who are really good, like this man who cooked today. Prabhupāda: Yes. And this man is coming. He can bring. Mahāṁśa: Yes, he himself will come. But he will have the habit of smoking, and I think we can at the most regulate his smoking, "If you want to smoke, you go somewhere far away and smoke, and before you start cooking you must wash yourself, have a bath, and then do the cooking." Prabhupāda: Yes. What can be done? Ne māmā che kānā māmā : "If there is no uncle, one blind uncle is all right." So the matter is now clear. You do it and develop it. Jagadīśa: There is one confusion in my mind, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Mahāṁśa said that the local villagers will not be inclined to come here and live because they are living just outside. But my impression was, from hearing you speak, was that everyone, whether they're living just outside or a long distance outside, they are suffering from material existence. They're having to struggle for existence. They're being taxed by the government. There's so many problems to maintain themself. And every living being in the material world is struggling to maintain himself. But if we offer them a house here and some work and we give them all food, clothing, and . . . Prabhupāda: That is our aim. Jagadīśa: That's our aim. Prabhupāda: That is our aim. So you can engage some men to cut the hill for blocks and gradually develop house. Tejiyas: These Badapur, they are good men. Prabhupāda: Like this room, yes. And as far as possible, induce them to come and live here. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Yes, that can be done. But family attachment . . . you see, these people, they have also family attachment, just like karmīs . So they are not so willing to . . . because their whole family . . . the whole village is like one family. It's like one family. They are all related to each other. And they can stay. They stay. Many of them stay here overnight. Prabhupāda: Naturally everyone wants to stay at his own place. "Home, sweet home." "There is no place like home." That's a fact. That is psychology. They will like to stay there. But if they have got facility to live here with family, they may come. Mahāṁśa: I was thinking we can make their house just like our house. If they are living right on our border, we can go to their house, tell them how to make an altar and make them live like how we are living. Let them stay there but let them live a good Kṛṣṇa conscious life. Prabhupāda: They'll come gradually, not immediately. Immediately, the psychology is, they have got attachment for their house. It may be worse house, but still, their attachment . . . that is natural. Long, long ago, when I was child practically, I went with my father in the village. So one man from the village was serving us. So my father, "This boy is nice. So why not take him to Calcutta?" So one day he was absent. It was dropping and . . . so I went in the interior of the village and I saw that his house was broken, there was no roof, and rain was falling and he was sitting, covering with a cloth. Then I told him that, "Why not come with us in Calcutta? We shall give you nice place, nice food." So his answer was, " Nā bābu ghar chere jabo nā " (chuckles), "Bābujī, I cannot go out of my home." That was his home. (laughter) This is my practical exp . . . he was sitting idly and it is dropping, and he could not come to serve. Still, that is his home, and he cannot leave home, that " Bābu ghar chere jabo nā ." That is psychology. It may be very worse condition; still, nobody wants to give up "Home, sweet home." That is natural psychology. So you have to manage. You see that why they, these Delhi passenger clerks . . . this morning I was telling that son was asking mother, "Who is this man?" His father, and he had never seen. "You have seen father." No, rather, he had no chance to see father because when the father comes back from the office it is night, ten o'clock or more than that. That time the son is sleeping. And again he has to go early in the morning. That time also, son is sleeping. So he did not know. So one Sunday, when he's grown up, he is asking his mother, "Who is this man?" "So this man . . ." Not only in India—everywhere. I have seen in New York from the other island? What is that? Haṁsadūta: Long Island. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Long Island. Prabhupāda: Long Island. They are coming two hours in the ferry, three hours in the bus. They are going to the office. Eight hours there. Then five hours and eight hours, thirteen hours, again five hours. Then thirteen and . . . eighteen hours. And for six hours they have got home. "Home, sweet home." Mahāṁśa: I knew people coming from Poona to Bombay to work. Prabhupāda: Just see. Mahāṁśa: All the way from Poona. Devotee: One and the same thing. *Prabhupāda: The home attachment is so great. These Delhi passengers, they are coming, hanging, and there are so many accidents daily. And few hours he will live with wife. That is his home. And whole other, out of twenty*-four hours, seventeen hours are outside, and maybe seven hours at home. But still, he'll come home. The home attachment is very big. Therefore we have to create attachment for this hari-saṅkīrtana . If you create that attachment, then they will give up home attachment, try life, to live here. Tathāsakti . You have to train them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in such a way. Then: *Tathāsakti . Then they will be attached here. Spiritually if you enlighten them, then they'll be attached. They'll voluntarily say they are accepting here. The chanting, chanting, then . . . this is the beginning that, "You chant and take prasādam ." Then ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Gradually the heart will be cleansed, and gradually they will be elevated to the platform of āsakti . Then they will not want money, they will not want . . . then they will live here, work, just you are doing. That stage, that requires little advancement. Therefore I say this kīrtana program must be continued. Then ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam . As you make the heart cleansed, they become more and more advanced. And then this stage of āsakti that, "This is . . . we shall live here." Just like we have given up our hearth and home and wife and children. We have given up that attachment. This attachment, practical. That is . . . you cannot expect immediately. That is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). When one gets better attachment, then they can give up this nasty attachment. Therefore we have to continue this saṅkīrtana . This is the psychology. But there is very great prospect to develop this place, and you have got experience. If you can develop, it will be very nice example. Once successful here, we can introduce this program. And India will be easier because they are by nature inclined to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will be easier. The kīrtana must be there. Otherwise, why we have to take so much responsibility? Tejiyas: Last night it was very hard. Again, no one was coming to the kīrtana . Prabhupāda: Eh? Tejiyas: These persons who are staying here in the garb of devotees, if they don't come . . . Mahāṁśa: Devotees. No one would come. Tejiyas: It was a great struggle. Again Jagadīśa and I and Mūrti, we were alone there, and we had to go and get people, and again they wouldn't come. Prabhupāda: So what is the use? Tejiyas: This Kṛṣṇan wouldn't come, and this other boy never comes. They should be made to leave. Otherwise they must follow the program. Kīrtana is so nice. All day we may be doing something. The only relief we get, from kīrtana . Prabhupāda: No, without kīrtana , it is . . . Mahāṁśa: Refreshes you completely. Prabhupāda: If you stop kīrtana , then it is ordinary. Mahāṁśa: Work. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tejiyas: And these people are very enthusiastic for kīrtana . Prabhupāda: So our men should be, those who are here, they must be very enthusiastic. And the paṇḍāl , what is this play paṇḍāl ? This paṇḍāl ? It is very small. Make a big paṇḍāl . Mahāṁśa: But if you want every day, we should buy one. Prabhupāda: Buy one. Mahāṁśa: Good one. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Make it over there, permanent place. With permanent speakers, permanent lights and . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Tejiyas: We should have every night. Prabhupāda: Do. Mahāṁśa: Prabhupāda wants us to continue every day kīrtana and prasādam . Prabhupāda: So do this and purchase. What is the price? Mahāṁśa: I'll find out tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it nicely, enthusiastically. Everything will be success. So any other question to discuss? Haṁsadūta: I don't know if this is the time, but I think this project should have a separate account. Mahāṁśa: Yes. It will have an account in the name of the Trust. The Venkatesh . . . I mean ISKCON Venkateshwara Trust. So as soon as we register tomorrow, day after tomorrow we'll open an account in that name. With how many signees? Prabhupāda: Make three, you three. Mahāṁśa: Joint. Prabhupāda: Out of three, two. Out of three, any two will do. That's all. Mahāṁśa: And amount which will be given from Your Divine Grace will be a loan towards the Trust, which will be paid back later on. Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyāpur account you take. I ask them to transfer to this account. And when you want to pay . . . Mahāṁśa: Yes, then they transfer Prabhupāda: That's all. That will be . . . do that. So open account. Haṁsadūta: And also that lakh of rupees which I gave him last year. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his. Haṁsadūta: The temple should pay it. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that one lakh rupees I will pay from the four and a half lakhs . You told me to put it everything into your account. So should I put the four and a half lakhs into your account, or should I put one lakh in this account and then three and a half . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, give him. That's all. Mahāṁśa: Anyway. Okay. Prabhupāda: Otherwise give me, and I give him. Haṁsadūta: It was meant for here. See, we gave it from Germany for the project. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that is understood. Tejiyas: So that can go into this one. Mahāṁśa: Yes. It can go directly into this account. Prabhupāda: So immediately open account, and whatever minimum you want, I will give you. That's all. And three signatories. Out of three, two. Yes. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, if we're going to have a permanent paṇḍāl for visitors, why don't we build some simple kīrtana hall where the people can also take prasādam , something like they built in Māyāpur but not . . . Prabhupāda: Do it . . . do it gradually. For the time being have a paṇḍāl . Yes. Haṁsadūta: Yes, for the time being. That could be used for kīrtana and prasādam . Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: That you told me just now, at that site where we have the permanent temple. Prabhupāda: That, tomorrow morning we shall see and make a . . . Mahāṁśa: A design. *Haṁsadūta: One more question. When . . . the first time you were here two years ago, you suggested that we should have Gaura*-Nitāi Deity immediately. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nṛsiṁha*-deva, Gaura-Nitāi and Jagannātha. Haṁsadūta: Right here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Shall we begin right here? We have this little place . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. *Haṁsadūta: I have a set of Gaura*-Nitāis with me from the bus, but They're smaller. Prabhupāda: So immediately install. Immediately. Yes. And have regular kīrtana and ārati . Deity must be there. That will be our engagement. That's all right. Enthusiasm. Real thing is enthusiasm, utsāhān. Dhairya , patience. And . . . Mahāṁśa: Determination. Prabhupāda: Determination: "Yes, I must do it." And here, if you make determination, everything is there. Everything is there. Such a vast land, and capital Kṛṣṇa will give. Land, labor. Labor is there. So simply organization required, that's all. Then everything is all right. Make use the production. First of all eat yourself as much as you . . . and then trade. Get money. People will be surprised at the organization. And there are twenty thousand men all round? Mahāṁśa: No, that is . . . just in very near villages there's about eight thousand. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So if you can make one thousand person interested, then you'll be successful. So you can engage some worker for cutting the rocks. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Tomorrow I am arranging. Tejiyas: In this Dabilpur there's some very good workers. I saw in the village. They have so many places where there are rocks stacked up. And they have many craftsmen in that Dabilpur. That's the main village in this area. They have them there, just near Mr . . . that Anjaya Reddy's house. Prabhupāda: This house, the blocks are prepared, you make huts and engage some men to make that tile. Mahāṁśa: Tiles. Round tiles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: The roof tiles. Mahāṁśa: Yes, just like the ones which are in the temple. Prabhupāda: Then locally you get everything. You haven't got to get from outside. Eh? Jagadīśa: Clay roof tiles. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very nice, very strong and very comfortable and simple. (sounds of children) So the villagers have come? Mahāṁśa: Yes, it sounds like it. Tejiyas: Their children. By themselves they were doing this kīrtana . Jagadīśa: Is somebody leading kīrtana now? Tejiyas: The children. Jagadīśa: We should go. Mahāṁśa: Let's go. Prabhupāda: Sit down daily and make next program. Then it will be success. Mahāṁśa: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Prabhupāda: Don't take that I am simply paying agent. Is that all right, that I shall simply go on paying? Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: You have got so many trustees, and you all trustees and managing trustee and this trustee, and for payment I am responsible. Even for purchasing . . . (indistinct) . . . what is this? I did not say at that time, but I talked this morning to them that what is this? I shall pay everything, and you are all big, big trustees? So you give me in writing that including the four lakhs already paid. Already, I am a debtor, and plus this money, whatever I shall, you shall return me within three years. Where is that letter? Jagadīśa: I can get it typed. Prabhupāda: Get it typed. Let me see it. Jagadīśa: This is, ah . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, I can read. You can write letter. Bank of Rajasthan. What is it? Mahāṁśa: Yes, this was fixed deposit which was in Madras, and since there is nobody in Madras now, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa wanted to transfer that amount to BBT in Bombay. So he told me to get it done. And both the signers, Mahābuddhi and Śyāmānanda, are not available. So if you dictate to the bank as founder- ācārya of ISKCON, then they will send the money and I will direct it to BBT. Jagadīśa: This is the amount that Gopāla Kṛṣṇa was mentioning in his letter that we read last night that's supposed to go to the BBT. *Prabhupāda: Manager, Bank of Rajasthan, Madras. (break) You cannot avoid it. If you actually want people to be happy, if you actually want world peaceful situation, you have to take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Otherwise all your attempts will be failure. Because even Mahatma Gandhi, such a great personality, he did not take Bhagavad-gītā as it is—therefore he was also failure, what to speak of us. Indian man: Then we are going to take . . . few of us are going to take it very seriously. Prabhupāda: Kindly do that. You can do that. You have got influence, you have got intelligence, you have got the mind, you have got the appreciative power. Therefore, I am asking you amongst our . . . it will be . . . take, for example, our Indian government is secular. So who can be greater secular than our . . . (break) Actually, better become Muhammadan. Therefore, so many Muhammadans. Otherwise they are not imported. Indian man: They are not imported. They are all over the Indus. Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside) What is that? Devotee (3): Aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣāḥ ( BG 9.3)? Prabhupāda: Not that. In Sixteenth Chapter there is verse, that janmani janmani. Devotee (3): Oh. Oh. (break) Prabhupāda: And the Congress procession was organized just in front of my shop. And they are coming, sitting, and then the procession began, the civil disobedience. In 19 . . . 30. Indian man: 1930. Prabhupāda: When the salt protest began. Indian man: In 1938. Prabhupāda: No. Sometimes in 1930, '30 or '31, like that. Indian man: 1931. When are you coming back? Prabhupāda: That I do not know, but there is . . . Indian man: From there? Prabhupāda: I am going to Hardwar. I may be going to Bombay or Bhubaneswar. That Bhubaneswar man came yesterday. I am thinking of constructing a temple there. Indian man: When you go to Bhubaneswar? After you go to Delhi? Prabhupāda: Delhi, I have no immediate program. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There is no fixed program now. Indian man: I would like to help to Delhi . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Immediately I am engaged in so many things. If you like, you can talk only. Indian man: How many go to Delhi . . . (indistinct) . . .? *Prabhupāda: It is stated in this Bhagavad*-gītā that Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ —saintly kings understood. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So this is not meant for the loafer class of men. Rājarṣi. He must be head of the government, at the same time a saintly person. Then he can understand. Indian man: Vaiśiṣṭa. *Prabhupāda: Vaiśiṣṭa. Yes. I have given the Bhagavad*-gītā is only understood by paramparā . So our rājarṣi is . . . practically there is no rājarṣi . Rāja-rṣi. He is called rājarṣi. It is not for loafer class of men. Then people will be benefited. If the head of the state understands that this is essential, then people will be . . . yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). Evetaro janaḥ . Those who are in the subordinate grade, they follow the leaders. So the leaders have given up this science. So how the subordinate class, they will appreciate? They must understand the spirit of Bhagavad-gītā , how it is essential, how people will be happy by following the instruction. Unless rājarṣi understands, how the people? So actually if she wants blessing, the blessing is already there: Bhagavad-gītā . And if she gives some time, we can make her convinced that this is essential. Without this, there is no question of peace and prosperity. There is no question. I think that these contents are essential. All these contents are explained with reference to Bhagavad-gītā , no other. Indian man: Arjuna is the real . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. So vijñāna , the knowledge is given by Kṛṣṇa. And how Arjuna has taken it? If we compare these two things and take it, then it is real success. And if we imagine which is not confirmed by Arjuna or Kṛṣṇa, then that is concoction; it will never help you. That is going on. Everyone is imagining some way of thinking, and that will not help. Indian man: She needs your blessings. Prabhupāda: Ah? Indian man: She needs your blessings. Mrs. Gandhi needs your blessings in her life. A person like you should bless her; she needs . . . Prabhupāda: Personally I welcome this Emergency. I welcome. This autocracy we welcome. But the autocrat must be rājarṣi . Then we can have full faith. If this . . . just like this child. The child sleeps very calmly on the lap of the mother because the child knows that, "I am very safe on the lap of my mother." Is it not? The same child in another's lap, he will cry, because he thinks that, "I am not safe." Similarly, this autocracy, or this Emergency, whatever you call, one man's, what is that, is good provided people think, "Now we are safe." Otherwise it is very serious. Indian man: People have a feeling that they are safe. Prabhupāda: No. I say the people have faith. But to create that faith, one must be very ideal. Indian man: One thing about her, what she is doing is really wonderful but . . . (indistinct) . . . discipline has come. *Prabhupāda: No, this can be done provided she understands Bhagavad*-gītā and introduces the method. Then there will be no more. Indian man: That is why I think a meeting, both of you, and you bless her and advise her . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Blessing is already there, Bhagavad*-gītā —authorized. Even big, big politicians before her . . . I think Jawaharlal Nehru also commented, Discovery of India, Bhagavad-gītā . And Gandhi was accepted, Tilak accepted. They have written something; *therefore they accepted. So why not accept it seriously? Why she is appreciating? That is my point. If you appreciate Bhagavad*-gītā is authority, why not take it seriously? And so far these untouchables, Bhagavad-gītā never says untouchables. Bhagavad-gītā says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonis are untouchable. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . So why not . . . there is no question of untouchable. "Anyone who comes to Me, actually, seriously," te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . Parāṁ gatim , highest perfection of life, if one goes, then where is pāpa-yoni ? Not only that, in the Bhagavat , Śukadeva Gosvāmī says the caṇḍālas , kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā . . . (indistinct) . . . śudhyanti , they can be cleaned by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So in the śāstra there is sanction. Nārada Muni says in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam (SB 7.11.35). To designate a person to which varṇa he belongs, there is symptom. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not that birth. Never says. That these symptoms, Nārada Muni says, if they are found, anyatra . Suppose the symptoms of a brāhmaṇa is found in a caṇḍāla . That caṇḍāla is no more caṇḍāla . Tat tenaiva vinirdiśet . Because he has acquired the qualification of a brāhmaṇa , he should not be called any more caṇḍāla; he should be called brāhmaṇa . Similarly, a brāhmaṇa , although he is born of a high family, but because he has associated with the qualities of a caṇḍāla , he should be called caṇḍāla . This is śāstric injunction. Śāstra never says by birth, stated like that. And that is practically being accepted. One man's qualification is concerned, not that in which family he is born. There are many instances— satyakam yavala . Indian man: Just . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I am doing practically. Indian man: (indistinct) . . . you should come into the place. People should read about. Like Christians do that. Because this will go a long way, go a long way, that one person has spoke the truth, as it is, as you say—not manufactured. One person, one svāmī , Prabhupāda, spoke the truth. What he explains . . . (indistinct) . . . that this is qualification of the person. Brāhmaṇa could be a caṇḍāla , caṇḍāla could be a brāhmaṇa . That is why this practicing untouchable is a sin, a crime. Don't make . . . *Prabhupāda: There is one verse in which it is said, karmaṇā vaiśyatāṁ gataḥ (SB 9.2.23): by his work he became a vaiśya . Definitely it is said. Like Viśvāmitra. He was kṣatriya , he became brāhmaṇa . Mahārāja Ṛṣabhadeva, He had one hundred sons, kṣatriyas. His eighty*-one sons, they became kṣatriyas , and all others, they became brāhmaṇas . Navayogendra. There are many instances. And they were the king also. There is injuction to the brāhmaṇa that in time of difficulty, the brāhmaṇas , you can accept the position of a kṣatriya , you can accept the position of a vaiśya , but never accept the position of a śūdra . These are the injunctions. Indian man: Why never accept the position of a śūdra ? Why? Prabhupāda: Because that is most abominable. Indian man: I see. *Prabhupāda: It has been described, śūdra's position is just like dog. So you don't degrade to such position. Now if we study from that point of view Kali*-yuga, everyone śūdra. Because śūdra . . . yesterday some gentleman came, he is a physist—what is that? Jagadīśa: Physicist. Prabhupāda: So I said that, "You are a qualified person, but if you don't get a salary, then you cannot live." That is the position of śūdra . Brāhmaṇa , they live independently. Kṣatriya , they live independently. Vaiśya , they live independently. A śūdra cannot live independently. That is dog's position. A dog, if he does not get a good master, it is street dog. Therefore it is forbidden: don't become a dog from vaiśya Indian man: (indistinct) . . . vaiśya , brāhmaṇa . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Therefore I say they are śūdra or less than śūdra . Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ . Kali-yuga. Indian man: (indistinct Hindi) . . . he is Marwari. Prabhupāda: I have seen on the aeroplane one Marwari—no, I shall not say gentleman—(laughter) he was eating intestine of the hog. What is this called? Jagadīśa: Sausage. Prabhupāda: Sausage. And I have heard that when this preparation is made, it emanates so bad odor because it is full of stool—they have to get out stool—and then boil it. Is that palatable? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We have got four rules and regulations. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Jagadīśa: We don't eat any meat, fish or eggs, no intoxication, no illicit sex life, no gambling. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: I want to see that you become a Vaiṣṇava, perfect, ideal. And your family members are very nice; *they can also follow. You have fine daughters, I have seen, very nice. And you are worshiping Bālajī. It is a great fortune. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Yeh Balaji keval namaskar hi kar loge toh tumhara bhaut bhala ho jayega aur kuch na bhi karo. (This is Balaji, if you just only pay obeisances you will be greatly benefitted even if you don't do anything else.) I was very glad to see Bālajī in your house. So bring here. (aside) I do not know who has taken them. Jagadīśa: I'll ask Hari-śauri. Hari-śauri. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, worldwide accepted. Why not India? Aur dusra rasta nahi hai. (There is no other way apart from this.) What is that verse? Jagadīśa: Janmani janmani ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: "Taking repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence." (end) Prabhupāda: Don't take that I am simply paying agent. Is that all right, that I shall simply go on paying? Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: You have got so many trustees, and you all trustees and managing trustee and this trustee, and for payment I am responsible. Even for purchasing . . . (indistinct) . . . what is this? I did not say at that time, but I talked this morning to them that what is this? I shall pay everything, and you are all big, big trustees? So you give me in writing that including the four lakhs already paid. Already, I am a debtor, and plus this money, whatever I shall, you shall return me within three years. Where is that letter? Jagadīśa: I can get it typed. Prabhupāda: Get it typed. Let me see it. Jagadīśa: This is, ah . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, I can read. You can write letter. Bank of Rajasthan. What is it? Mahāṁśa: Yes, this was fixed deposit which was in Madras, and since there is nobody in Madras now, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa wanted to transfer that amount to BBT in Bombay. So he told me to get it done. And both the signers, Mahābuddhi and Śyāmānanda, are not available. So if you dictate to the bank as founder- ācārya of ISKCON, then they will send the money and I will direct it to BBT. Jagadīśa: This is the amount that Gopāla Kṛṣṇa was mentioning in his letter that we read last night that's supposed to go to the BBT. *Prabhupāda: Manager, Bank of Rajasthan, Madras. (break) You cannot avoid it. If you actually want people to be happy, if you actually want world peaceful situation, you have to take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Otherwise all your attempts will be failure. Because even Mahatma Gandhi, such a great personality, he did not take Bhagavad-gītā as it is—therefore he was also failure, what to speak of us. Indian man: Then we are going to take . . . few of us are going to take it very seriously. Prabhupāda: Kindly do that. You can do that. You have got influence, you have got intelligence, you have got the mind, you have got the appreciative power. Therefore, I am asking you amongst our . . . it will be . . . take, for example, our Indian government is secular. So who can be greater secular than our . . . (break) Actually, better become Muhammadan. Therefore, so many Muhammadans. Otherwise they are not imported. Indian man: They are not imported. They are all over the Indus. Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside) What is that? Devotee (3): Aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣāḥ ( BG 9.3)? Prabhupāda: Not that. In Sixteenth Chapter there is verse, that janmani janmani. Devotee (3): Oh. Oh. (break) Prabhupāda: And the Congress procession was organized just in front of my shop. And they are coming, sitting, and then the procession began, the civil disobedience. In 19 . . . 30. Indian man: 1930. Prabhupāda: When the salt protest began. Indian man: In 1938. Prabhupāda: No. Sometimes in 1930, '30 or '31, like that. Indian man: 1931. When are you coming back? Prabhupāda: That I do not know, but there is . . . Indian man: From there? Prabhupāda: I am going to Hardwar. I may be going to Bombay or Bhubaneswar. That Bhubaneswar man came yesterday. I am thinking of constructing a temple there. Indian man: When you go to Bhubaneswar? After you go to Delhi? Prabhupāda: Delhi, I have no immediate program. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There is no fixed program now. Indian man: I would like to help to Delhi . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Immediately I am engaged in so many things. If you like, you can talk only. Indian man: How many go to Delhi . . . (indistinct) . . .? *Prabhupāda: It is stated in this Bhagavad*-gītā that Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ —saintly kings understood. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So this is not meant for the loafer class of men. Rājarṣi. He must be head of the government, at the same time a saintly person. Then he can understand. Indian man: Vaiśiṣṭa. *Prabhupāda: Vaiśiṣṭa. Yes. I have given the Bhagavad*-gītā is only understood by paramparā . So our rājarṣi is . . . practically there is no rājarṣi . Rāja-rṣi. He is called rājarṣi. It is not for loafer class of men. Then people will be benefited. If the head of the state understands that this is essential, then people will be . . . yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). Evetaro janaḥ . Those who are in the subordinate grade, they follow the leaders. So the leaders have given up this science. So how the subordinate class, they will appreciate? They must understand the spirit of Bhagavad-gītā , how it is essential, how people will be happy by following the instruction. Unless rājarṣi understands, how the people? So actually if she wants blessing, the blessing is already there: Bhagavad-gītā . And if she gives some time, we can make her convinced that this is essential. Without this, there is no question of peace and prosperity. There is no question. I think that these contents are essential. All these contents are explained with reference to Bhagavad-gītā , no other. Indian man: Arjuna is the real . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. So vijñāna , the knowledge is given by Kṛṣṇa. And how Arjuna has taken it? If we compare these two things and take it, then it is real success. And if we imagine which is not confirmed by Arjuna or Kṛṣṇa, then that is concoction; it will never help you. That is going on. Everyone is imagining some way of thinking, and that will not help. Indian man: She needs your blessings. Prabhupāda: Ah? Indian man: She needs your blessings. Mrs. Gandhi needs your blessings in her life. A person like you should bless her; she needs . . . Prabhupāda: Personally I welcome this Emergency. I welcome. This autocracy we welcome. But the autocrat must be rājarṣi . Then we can have full faith. If this . . . just like this child. The child sleeps very calmly on the lap of the mother because the child knows that, "I am very safe on the lap of my mother." Is it not? The same child in another's lap, he will cry, because he thinks that, "I am not safe." Similarly, this autocracy, or this Emergency, whatever you call, one man's, what is that, is good provided people think, "Now we are safe." Otherwise it is very serious. Indian man: People have a feeling that they are safe. Prabhupāda: No. I say the people have faith. But to create that faith, one must be very ideal. Indian man: One thing about her, what she is doing is really wonderful but . . . (indistinct) . . . discipline has come. *Prabhupāda: No, this can be done provided she understands Bhagavad*-gītā and introduces the method. Then there will be no more. Indian man: That is why I think a meeting, both of you, and you bless her and advise her . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Blessing is already there, Bhagavad*-gītā —authorized. Even big, big politicians before her . . . I think Jawaharlal Nehru also commented, Discovery of India, Bhagavad-gītā . And Gandhi was accepted, Tilak accepted. They have written something; *therefore they accepted. So why not accept it seriously? Why she is appreciating? That is my point. If you appreciate Bhagavad*-gītā is authority, why not take it seriously? And so far these untouchables, Bhagavad-gītā never says untouchables. Bhagavad-gītā says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonis are untouchable. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . So why not . . . there is no question of untouchable. "Anyone who comes to Me, actually, seriously," te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . Parāṁ gatim , highest perfection of life, if one goes, then where is pāpa-yoni ? Not only that, in the Bhagavat , Śukadeva Gosvāmī says the caṇḍālas , kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā . . . (indistinct) . . . śudhyanti , they can be cleaned by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So in the śāstra there is sanction. Nārada Muni says in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam (SB 7.11.35). To designate a person to which varṇa he belongs, there is symptom. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not that birth. Never says. That these symptoms, Nārada Muni says, if they are found, anyatra . Suppose the symptoms of a brāhmaṇa is found in a caṇḍāla . That caṇḍāla is no more caṇḍāla . Tat tenaiva vinirdiśet . Because he has acquired the qualification of a brāhmaṇa , he should not be called any more caṇḍāla; he should be called brāhmaṇa . Similarly, a brāhmaṇa , although he is born of a high family, but because he has associated with the qualities of a caṇḍāla , he should be called caṇḍāla . This is śāstric injunction. Śāstra never says by birth, stated like that. And that is practically being accepted. One man's qualification is concerned, not that in which family he is born. There are many instances— satyakam yavala . Indian man: Just . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I am doing practically. Indian man: (indistinct) . . . you should come into the place. People should read about. Like Christians do that. Because this will go a long way, go a long way, that one person has spoke the truth, as it is, as you say—not manufactured. One person, one svāmī , Prabhupāda, spoke the truth. What he explains . . . (indistinct) . . . that this is qualification of the person. Brāhmaṇa could be a caṇḍāla , caṇḍāla could be a brāhmaṇa . That is why this practicing untouchable is a sin, a crime. Don't make . . . *Prabhupāda: There is one verse in which it is said, karmaṇā vaiśyatāṁ gataḥ (SB 9.2.23): by his work he became a vaiśya . Definitely it is said. Like Viśvāmitra. He was kṣatriya , he became brāhmaṇa . Mahārāja Ṛṣabhadeva, He had one hundred sons, kṣatriyas. His eighty*-one sons, they became kṣatriyas , and all others, they became brāhmaṇas . Navayogendra. There are many instances. And they were the king also. There is injuction to the brāhmaṇa that in time of difficulty, the brāhmaṇas , you can accept the position of a kṣatriya , you can accept the position of a vaiśya , but never accept the position of a śūdra . These are the injunctions. Indian man: Why never accept the position of a śūdra ? Why? Prabhupāda: Because that is most abominable. Indian man: I see. *Prabhupāda: It has been described, śūdra's position is just like dog. So you don't degrade to such position. Now if we study from that point of view Kali*-yuga, everyone śūdra. Because śūdra . . . yesterday some gentleman came, he is a physist—what is that? Jagadīśa: Physicist. Prabhupāda: So I said that, "You are a qualified person, but if you don't get a salary, then you cannot live." That is the position of śūdra . Brāhmaṇa , they live independently. Kṣatriya , they live independently. Vaiśya , they live independently. A śūdra cannot live independently. That is dog's position. A dog, if he does not get a good master, it is street dog. Therefore it is forbidden: don't become a dog from vaiśya Indian man: (indistinct) . . . vaiśya , brāhmaṇa . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Therefore I say they are śūdra or less than śūdra . Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ . Kali-yuga. Indian man: (indistinct Hindi) . . . he is Marwari. Prabhupāda: I have seen on the aeroplane one Marwari—no, I shall not say gentleman—(laughter) he was eating intestine of the hog. What is this called? Jagadīśa: Sausage. Prabhupāda: Sausage. And I have heard that when this preparation is made, it emanates so bad odor because it is full of stool—they have to get out stool—and then boil it. Is that palatable? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We have got four rules and regulations. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Jagadīśa: We don't eat any meat, fish or eggs, no intoxication, no illicit sex life, no gambling. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: I want to see that you become a Vaiṣṇava, perfect, ideal. And your family members are very nice; *they can also follow. You have fine daughters, I have seen, very nice. And you are worshiping Bālajī. It is a great fortune. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Yeh Balaji keval namaskar hi kar loge toh tumhara bhaut bhala ho jayega aur kuch na bhi karo. (This is Balaji, if you just only pay obeisances you will be greatly benefitted even if you don't do anything else.) I was very glad to see Bālajī in your house. So bring here. (aside) I do not know who has taken them. Jagadīśa: I'll ask Hari-śauri. Hari-śauri. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, worldwide accepted. Why not India? Aur dusra rasta nahi hai. (There is no other way apart from this.) What is that verse? Jagadīśa: Janmani janmani ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: "Taking repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence." (end) ( kīrtana welcoming Prabhupāda at the Bombay Airport) Hari-śauri: Girirāja? Who's got the baggage? Girirāja: Ah? Hari-śauri: Somebody's got to get the baggage. Girirāja: I'll get it. ( kīrtana ends) Devotees: Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! (in car) Hari-śauri: Look at this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bridge ka neeche se jaoge na? (You will go from under the bridge, will you not?) Prabhupāda: He is leading. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He speaks fluent Hindi, this boy, Bilvamaṅgala. Prabhupāda: He is married Indian wife? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he is the fellow who married that actress's sister. Prabhupāda: They are living together? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they are not living in the temple. They are living outside. They are living together but outside. Prabhupāda: Wife maintaining the husband? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Wife maintaining the husband? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Her family has given them house. . . . nahi*-nahi. (. . . no, no.) (aside) This would have been a shorter cut, I think. Prabhupāda: Whose car this is? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is one of our Life Members' friend's. He is like a devotee, Jasbir. Nanda*-kumāra Mahārāja just arrived with Radha Fahavar (chuckles). Prabhupāda: What is his dress? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is a sannyasi . (chuckles) He arrived this morning in Delhi, this evening in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Hah. Everything is all right? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Everything is going very nicely. We've arranged . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Car is very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice. We made a palanquin, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think it's not very good, so we're . . . how did the meeting go yesterday . . . today? Prabhupāda: Yes, it was very successful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughing) Thanks. Prabhupāda: Crushed. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Crushed. But they won't change, these Māyāvādīs. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . will say that you are not on the right party. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Motorcycle ours? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It's ours, one of our devotees. He lives outside. He has a motorcycle, so I thought he can escort motorcycle first. (calling to somebody) Bele! Hari-śauri: There is red light on the front? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is one red light that doesn't work. Hari-śauri: (indistinct) . . . at least it scares everyone, putting a red light in the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Is there a garage? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is a garage, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the temple where it is being built, and Mr. Gonia told me it will be ready in three or four days. He is getting all cleaned up. So we didn't want to build one because there is one there we can get. I spoke about that today. Our first book which you had told me to prepare showing us as a religious movement, it has come from the printer, looks first class. Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Movement Is Authorized , it's the Indian version. You told me to produce it in Vṛndāvana, it just came from the printers. Looks very, very nice, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And we are doing a similar one with only with s . . . little different, which shows us as a cultural movement. Plane was a little late. Prabhupāda: Yes. One hour. It arrived late. Bombay is always opulent. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: India's first city. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Rādhā*-vallabhā was telling me that he likes Bombay. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I told them him are getting such cheap printing rates we may be moving a lot of printing to Bombay. He said he'll come and stay here. Prabhupāda: You are for the first time to Bombay? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I was only in the airport before. I have never actually seen the temple. Very nice. Prabhupāda: What is the news of Los Angeles? You are coming from Los Angeles or New York? *Rādhā*-vallabha: From Los Angeles. They are having the Christmas distribution now, big book distribution of the year. Prabhupāda: About that opposition movement? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I can't hear. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About the opposition movement. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. The devotees dress up like Santa Claus and go out and distribute books. Now all the other Santa Clauses, the karmī Santa Clauses, are complaining. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: To the police? *Rādhā*-vallabha: So our devotee Santa Clauses are getting arrested. So we had a press conference with the devotee Santa Claus and another devotee preaching to everyone. It was very successful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda meant with the opposition with the parents, that case. Hari-śauri: That court case. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In Chicago? Hari-śauri: No. From Los Angeles, that girl. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In Los Angeles, it's all very favorable. Prabhupāda: Ask him. Hari-śauri: What's happening in Chicago? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Chicago with the boy? Hari-śauri: Yeah. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Rāmeśvara and Satsvarūpa and some others met in Chicago. It's being taken care of. The boy is in Chicago with his mother. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: One of the sadajīs , he rented that bus for the devotees. He's a sadajī but he's like a devotee. He comes every day. Hari-śauri: (discussing quietly, out of Prabhupada's hearing) Harikeśa is GBC for Germany and Eastern Europe. The New York protest is doing all right? The New York protest? *Rādhā*-vallabha: One hasn't happened yet. There's not really much more in New York till the case is solved. You have the manuscripts or does Pradyumna? Hari-śauri: Pradyumna. He had them. He had up to the Sixteenth Chapter is complete, but I don't know how he was going to send them. There is in the Hyderabad farm, so then he didn't come to Wardha with us. He is coming directly to Bombay and his wife. He should be here tomorrow. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We need those manuscripts if we're going to get the book done Hari-śauri: Yeah. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We have finished Eighth Canto, Volume Three. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Eighth Canto, Volume Three is finished. It should be here in a few days. Prabhupāda: Eighth Canto, Part . . .? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Three. Hari-śauri: (aside) There was a book that was sent with some electrical apparatus. It was sent to Delhi, and they can't get it cleared from the Customs. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Electrical appliance? Hari-śauri: Electrical, yeah, that's what they have said. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja knows about it. There were some books, a book that was also sent to Prabhupāda. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Is it cleared? Hari-śauri: No, they can't get it cleared because we have to pay so much duty on it. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Oh, the electrical. Did you get the shaver? Hari-śauri: I got some stuff. The last I got was from Jāmuna. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, did you get the shaver? Hari-śauri: For Prabhupāda? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Hari-śauri: What kind was it? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, I wrote it down. I sent you one. Hari-śauri: . . . (indistinct) *Rādhā*-vallabha: That's what it is, then. Hari-śauri: I got another one from . . . *Rādhā*-vallabha: (indistinct) . . . some new books? Did Prabhupada get one through? Hari-śauri: That's what it is then. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They sent you some new books. I just found out from Hari-śauri that they never cleared Customs. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? *Rādhā*-vallabha: First Canto, Part Three. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The reason is you sent them with some electrical apparatus. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It was a new shaver for Prabhupāda. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They wouldn't let you clear it? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Didn't Hari-śauri tell you people not to send any electrical apparatus? Prabhupāda: Yes, they should not be mixed. Hari-śauri: It's almost impossible to get it through Customs. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They mixed up everything. When you leave the country maybe you can clear it out. Hari-śauri: What burnt out was the recharger. *Rādhā*-vallabha: That's all? Hari-śauri: Yeah, the shaver's all right. (laughs) If you can get that shaver and take it back with you, in case you . . . (indistinct) *Rādhā*-vallabha: Oh, right. Hari-śauri: Actually, the recharger's working now again. It was almost burnt out. To get . . . what I wanted was a recharger that works off of 220 volts . . . (indistinct) . . . how's Rakṣaṇa doing? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He's getting his leg amputated. Hari-śauri: Yeah. I sent him a letter, you know, with a picture of Prabhupāda from Paris, and . . . (break) (end) ( kīrtana welcoming Prabhupāda at the Bombay Airport) Hari-śauri: Girirāja? Who's got the baggage? Girirāja: Ah? Hari-śauri: Somebody's got to get the baggage. Girirāja: I'll get it. ( kīrtana ends) Devotees: Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! (in car) Hari-śauri: Look at this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bridge ka neeche se jaoge na? (You will go from under the bridge, will you not?) Prabhupāda: He is leading. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He speaks fluent Hindi, this boy, Bilvamaṅgala. Prabhupāda: He is married Indian wife? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he is the fellow who married that actress's sister. Prabhupāda: They are living together? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they are not living in the temple. They are living outside. They are living together but outside. Prabhupāda: Wife maintaining the husband? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Wife maintaining the husband? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Her family has given them house. . . . nahi*-nahi. (. . . no, no.) (aside) This would have been a shorter cut, I think. Prabhupāda: Whose car this is? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is one of our Life Members' friend's. He is like a devotee, Jasbir. Nanda*-kumāra Mahārāja just arrived with Radha Fahavar (chuckles). Prabhupāda: What is his dress? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is a sannyasi . (chuckles) He arrived this morning in Delhi, this evening in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Hah. Everything is all right? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Everything is going very nicely. We've arranged . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Car is very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice. We made a palanquin, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think it's not very good, so we're . . . how did the meeting go yesterday . . . today? Prabhupāda: Yes, it was very successful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughing) Thanks. Prabhupāda: Crushed. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Crushed. But they won't change, these Māyāvādīs. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . will say that you are not on the right party. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Motorcycle ours? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It's ours, one of our devotees. He lives outside. He has a motorcycle, so I thought he can escort motorcycle first. (calling to somebody) Bele! Hari-śauri: There is red light on the front? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is one red light that doesn't work. Hari-śauri: (indistinct) . . . at least it scares everyone, putting a red light in the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Is there a garage? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is a garage, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the temple where it is being built, and Mr. Gonia told me it will be ready in three or four days. He is getting all cleaned up. So we didn't want to build one because there is one there we can get. I spoke about that today. Our first book which you had told me to prepare showing us as a religious movement, it has come from the printer, looks first class. Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Movement Is Authorized , it's the Indian version. You told me to produce it in Vṛndāvana, it just came from the printers. Looks very, very nice, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And we are doing a similar one with only with s . . . little different, which shows us as a cultural movement. Plane was a little late. Prabhupāda: Yes. One hour. It arrived late. Bombay is always opulent. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: India's first city. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Rādhā*-vallabhā was telling me that he likes Bombay. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I told them him are getting such cheap printing rates we may be moving a lot of printing to Bombay. He said he'll come and stay here. Prabhupāda: You are for the first time to Bombay? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I was only in the airport before. I have never actually seen the temple. Very nice. Prabhupāda: What is the news of Los Angeles? You are coming from Los Angeles or New York? *Rādhā*-vallabha: From Los Angeles. They are having the Christmas distribution now, big book distribution of the year. Prabhupāda: About that opposition movement? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I can't hear. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About the opposition movement. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. The devotees dress up like Santa Claus and go out and distribute books. Now all the other Santa Clauses, the karmī Santa Clauses, are complaining. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: To the police? *Rādhā*-vallabha: So our devotee Santa Clauses are getting arrested. So we had a press conference with the devotee Santa Claus and another devotee preaching to everyone. It was very successful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda meant with the opposition with the parents, that case. Hari-śauri: That court case. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In Chicago? Hari-śauri: No. From Los Angeles, that girl. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In Los Angeles, it's all very favorable. Prabhupāda: Ask him. Hari-śauri: What's happening in Chicago? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Chicago with the boy? Hari-śauri: Yeah. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Rāmeśvara and Satsvarūpa and some others met in Chicago. It's being taken care of. The boy is in Chicago with his mother. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: One of the sadajīs , he rented that bus for the devotees. He's a sadajī but he's like a devotee. He comes every day. Hari-śauri: (discussing quietly, out of Prabhupada's hearing) Harikeśa is GBC for Germany and Eastern Europe. The New York protest is doing all right? The New York protest? *Rādhā*-vallabha: One hasn't happened yet. There's not really much more in New York till the case is solved. You have the manuscripts or does Pradyumna? Hari-śauri: Pradyumna. He had them. He had up to the Sixteenth Chapter is complete, but I don't know how he was going to send them. There is in the Hyderabad farm, so then he didn't come to Wardha with us. He is coming directly to Bombay and his wife. He should be here tomorrow. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We need those manuscripts if we're going to get the book done Hari-śauri: Yeah. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We have finished Eighth Canto, Volume Three. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Eighth Canto, Volume Three is finished. It should be here in a few days. Prabhupāda: Eighth Canto, Part . . .? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Three. Hari-śauri: (aside) There was a book that was sent with some electrical apparatus. It was sent to Delhi, and they can't get it cleared from the Customs. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Electrical appliance? Hari-śauri: Electrical, yeah, that's what they have said. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja knows about it. There were some books, a book that was also sent to Prabhupāda. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Is it cleared? Hari-śauri: No, they can't get it cleared because we have to pay so much duty on it. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Oh, the electrical. Did you get the shaver? Hari-śauri: I got some stuff. The last I got was from Jāmuna. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, did you get the shaver? Hari-śauri: For Prabhupāda? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Hari-śauri: What kind was it? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, I wrote it down. I sent you one. Hari-śauri: . . . (indistinct) *Rādhā*-vallabha: That's what it is, then. Hari-śauri: I got another one from . . . *Rādhā*-vallabha: (indistinct) . . . some new books? Did Prabhupada get one through? Hari-śauri: That's what it is then. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They sent you some new books. I just found out from Hari-śauri that they never cleared Customs. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? *Rādhā*-vallabha: First Canto, Part Three. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The reason is you sent them with some electrical apparatus. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It was a new shaver for Prabhupāda. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They wouldn't let you clear it? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Didn't Hari-śauri tell you people not to send any electrical apparatus? Prabhupāda: Yes, they should not be mixed. Hari-śauri: It's almost impossible to get it through Customs. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They mixed up everything. When you leave the country maybe you can clear it out. Hari-śauri: What burnt out was the recharger. *Rādhā*-vallabha: That's all? Hari-śauri: Yeah, the shaver's all right. (laughs) If you can get that shaver and take it back with you, in case you . . . (indistinct) *Rādhā*-vallabha: Oh, right. Hari-śauri: Actually, the recharger's working now again. It was almost burnt out. To get . . . what I wanted was a recharger that works off of 220 volts . . . (indistinct) . . . how's Rakṣaṇa doing? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He's getting his leg amputated. Hari-śauri: Yeah. I sent him a letter, you know, with a picture of Prabhupāda from Paris, and . . . (break) (end) Prabhupāda: Because you cannot do like this. Kṛṣṇa says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya ( BG 7.7): "Nobody is superior than Me." That is Kṛṣṇa. Are you able to become superior of everyone? Mr. Malhotra: That is so, but how is that creator? His own creation went against and Kṛṣṇa became after His creation to worship and become devotees of superior . . . Prabhupāda: Isiliye, (That is why,) For this reason Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). One who knows what are the activities of Kṛṣṇa, he is liberated. So, So to understand Kṛṣṇa tattvataḥ , is not possible for ordinary person. Mr. Malhotra: Why this trying to understand Kṛṣṇa? Why not try to understand one's self? Kṛṣṇa passed five thousand years ago. Now ashes are there in our hands. Why not . . . Prabhupāda: That means you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is . . . why Kṛṣṇa? You are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. You are nitya , nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So you are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, you are nitya. Why do you say Kṛṣṇa existed five thousand years ago? He is existing always. Mr. Malhotra: Always existing there. Then the past is . . . (indistinct) . . . within you, within oneself. Prabhupāda: No, no. You are also nitya , but you are part and parcel of that nitya . Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God is nitya , you are also nitya ; God is also living, you are also living. What is the difference between the two? That one person, He is maintaining all of us. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . So this is knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. God is one. I am also individual. But we are many because we are all living entities. But God is one. We are controlled by God or God's nature. We are not one. Mr. Malhotra: Aren't we the images of God? Prabhupāda: Apart from images . . . that is another thing. That we shall describe later on. First of all you cannot claim that you are God, because you are under the control of material nature. Mr. Malhotra: You said part and parcel of God. Prabhupāda: Part and parcel, just like the finger is part and parcel of my body, but it is not the whole body. Mr. Malhotra: It is the body. Prabhupāda: It is body, you can say that, but part of it. Mr. Malhotra: Part of my body. All enjoined together, it makes the whole body. If it is separated . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. But still you say it is aṅguli (finger). It is not the body. Mr. Malhotra: Aṅguli . (laughs) It is one part, to say many. *Prabhupāda: No. You should be . . . should be senses. Just like this aṅguli , I am asking, "Do like this?" It is my servant. After all, it is part of the body, it is my servant. If it cannot serve my body, then it is diseased. Similarly we are part and parcel of God. If we cannot serve God, that is our diseased condition. The same example: This finger is part and parcel of my body. But I ask finger, "Please come here, to my nostrils." If it cannot do, then it is diseased. It is not in normal condition. So anyone who does not serve the whole, part and whole, he is diseased. He is not in normal condition. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇera dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Therefore because we have forgotten this relationship with God, declared ourself as God, that is diseased condition. Therefore God comes and He orders, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66): "Surrender unto Me. Don't talk nonsense." That is God. So when we agree, that is our perfection. Not to artificially become God, but to agree to serve God. That is liberation. Mr. Malhotra: So what if the drop submerges in the ocean, then the identity of drop vanishes. Prabhupāda: No. Mr. Malhotra: Drop, when drop submerges with the ocean . . . *Prabhupāda: I will give you practical example. Just like you take red water, colored water. So put into the sea, does it mean that sea becomes red? That little spot may be for the time being. Besides that, merging, this is the philosophy of the Māyāvādīs. Actually that is superficial. Just like a bird, green bird, enters into the green tree. You see that bird is vanished. Because the tree is green and the bird is green, you do not know the separate identification. But the bird is there, separate identification. It is not the bird has become zero. A aeroplane goes to the sky, after some time you don't find the aeroplane. That doesn't mean the aeroplane has no more identity, separate. It is separate. It is your defective eyes that you cannot see that it has got separate existence. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that, "I, you and all these kings who are assembled here, we existed in the past, we are now existing, and we shall exist in the future." That means individual existence will continue. He explains past, present and future. So where is imagination? Mr. Malhotra: No imagination. But paraṁ pada , that is nirvāṇa , or whatever . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, paraṁ pada is just like you fly in the sky, go very high. So from here we cannot see that you are separately existing. But you are separately existing. It is my deficient eyes that I see that you are not. Mr. Malhotra: Identification will remain always? *Prabhupāda: Always. Therefore it is said in the śāstra , āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ anādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ , ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninaḥ . . . (SB 10.2.32). It is said, "My Lord, the lotus-eyed, vimukta-mānina , if somebody artificially is thinking that he has become liberated or merged into the existence, āruhya kṛcchreṇa , for which he has undergone very severe tapasya ," āruhya kṛcchreṇa . . . kṛcchreṇa means with great difficulty. Paraṁ padam , brahma-jyotir , patanti adhaḥ , "again he falls down," anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ . . . just like these rascals that are going in the sky to find out a place in the Mars and in the moon. And why they are coming back? If actually one has gone, then why he's coming back? Mr. Malhotra: To tell to the others that they saw something. *Prabhupāda: That's it. Similarly, you will find the so*-called sannyāsīs—not bhaktas —they undergo severe austerities, penances, but after some time they come to the worldly atmosphere. Because they could not get any place, therefore they come down. Just like the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs they say that this duniyā (world), jagat mithyā . If jagat is mithyā , you have left it, then why you come again to give some philanthropic service? If it is mithyā , then why you come again after so much? Is it not nonsense? If jagat is mithyā why you are coming again to this mithyā ? *That means you could not get place in the satya . Therefore you come down again. That is stated in the śāstra. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam (SB 10.2.32). Although with severe austerities and penances might go to the paraṁ pada , patanty adhaḥ , anādṛta*-yuṣmad , because he could not get shelter at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, he falls down. He must fall down to the material activities. Patanty adhaḥ . That is adho patha . As soon as a person, after undergoing severe austerities, becomes very highly elevated in the sannyāsa stage, but if he cannot get shelter at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then surely he shall fall down for these material activities, material enjoyment. That is the sign that he's fallen down. Mr. Malhotra: Lord Kṛṣṇa we have to see in a personal way, have to see the entirety as the . . . Prabhupāda: Lord Kṛṣṇa is everything. Mr. Malhotra: Nirākāra . *Prabhupāda: Why nirākāra ? He says " aham ." Every sentence in the Bhagavad*-gītā , He says " aham ." So how He is nirākāra ? Just like you, you are a person. When you say "I, I can do this," that is a person. Mr. Malhotra: Because I have no other alternative but to communicate. I can communicate only "I" and "you." There is no other way. Prabhupāda: No other way, therefore you are deficient. You cannot claim that you are God. Because you have no other way. You are forced by something. So somebody is controller upon you. Therefore you are different from the God. As you say: "I have no other way," that means you are dependent something else. Mr. Malhotra: But God can communicate differently? *Prabhupāda: Therefore God and you are different. That is dvaita*-vāda . You are different . . . Mr. Malhotra: Why at all this started even? Why at all, say millions, trillions years back, how it started that God created this world? Then all are one and different. Prabhupāda: Who created? Mr. Malhotra: God. Prabhupāda: So God is there. So God . . . you are created or you are subordinate to God? You are also there. So nitya , you are also existing eternally, and God is also eternally existing. But the difference between you and God is that God is maintaining everything and you are being maintained. That is the difference. You are one of the items which is maintained by God. Mr. Malhotra: As long as I continue my identity that, "I am so and so. I am this body," or "I am a person, or ātmā , seated in this body, or dwelling in this body," when I dislodge my body from ātmā , then what is the position? *Prabhupāda: You are different from the body. You are different from the body. You are soul. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This body is temporary, you are eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You are nityaḥ śāśvata . You are never killed, even after the destruction of the body. That should . . . that is real understanding that, "I am not this body. After annihilation of this body, I shall continue." Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). You should know that you are eternal part and parcel of God. God is eternal. Just like gold and a small particle of gold, both of them are gold. A small particle of gold, it is also gold, but not equal to the gold mine. That is real understanding. And because you are little gold . . . Mr. Malhotra: But potentiality? Prabhupāda: Potential different, because a lump of gold and a small particle of gold, the value is not the same. Gold it is quality, but not the value the same. That you cannot say. *Mr. Malhotra: Quality*-wise it is gold, but . . . *Prabhupāda: But quantity it is different. God is all*-pervading. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is all-pervading. He is in everyone's heart. Can you live in everyone's heart? Can you know what I am thinking? Then how you can become God? Mr. Malhotra: Well there are . . . Prabhupāda: There are fools, rascals. There are others. (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: But there are certain people who say that . . . *Prabhupāda: No, who says, they are rascals. They are rascals. We take them as rascals, that's all. How you can say that you are all*-pervading? Can you say that? Even if you are very highly elevated, can you say what I am thinking? Then how do you claim God? God is all-pervading. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). You have read Bhagavad-gītā . There are two kṣetra-jñas . One kṣetra-jña , just like I am, you are. They are kṣetra-jña . I know about my pains and pleasures of my body. You know. But I do not know what is pains and pleasure of your body; *you do not know what is pains and pleasure of my body. Therefore there is difference. But God knows. That is the difference between you and God. How you claim "God"? You do not know what is the pains and pleasures of my body. You know the pains and pleasures of your body. I know the pains and pleasures of my body. But either you or me, we do not know the pains and pleasures of all bodies. And Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata . He knows everyone's pains and pleasure. That is the difference between you and Him. Mr. Malhotra: But this is all right. As long as I maintain my identity . . . Prabhupāda: You have to. If you foolishly think that you have become one, that is your foolishness. Yes. That is foolish thinking. Mr. Malhotra: What if I submerge myself with the entire . . . Prabhupāda: Merge means you do not disagree. That is merge. Do not disagree. Just like when Arjuna was disagreeing, that is his condition, that is his . . . Mr. Malhotra: Identity. Prabhupāda: . . . conditioned identity. And when he agreed, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73)," that is identity of oneness. Mr. Malhotra: Surrender. Prabhupāda: Surrender. That is oneness. Not that individually he has become different. Individually he is, but he does not disagree with Kṛṣṇa. That is oneness. Just like we are sitting, we are of different interests. But so far my disciples are, they will not disagree with me. That is oneness. But he is individual. He was individual, he is individual, and he will continue his individuality. But as soon as he accepts me as the leader, then he is agreement. That is oneness. Mr. Malhotra: Agreement with God is surrender. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). To serve Kṛṣṇa favorably, that is oneness. That is oneness. *Mr. Malhotra: This is bhakti*-yoga . Prabhupāda: Any yoga . You are individual; God is individual. That is already explained, I told you. God says, Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, "Me, yourself and all these people who have gathered, they are all individuals. They were individuals in the past, they are individuals now, and we shall continue to remain individuals in the future." Mr. Malhotra: Even if we surrender. Prabhupāda: Surrender means agreement, that's all. Mr. Malhotra: Agreement. Individuality will all along exist. Prabhupāda: Otherwise why is He asking, "You surrender," unless there is individuality? Why this request is there? Because you are individual, you can deny it. That individuality continues. But if you have love for God, then you agree, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73)." So that is wanted. Not that he lost his individuality. Individuality is there. Mr. Malhotra: Individuality remains. It seems so, that the individuality remains. *Prabhupāda: And this is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says. What Kṛṣṇa says, you have to accept. Otherwise, what is the use of reading Bhagavad*-gītā ? You cannot accept Bhagavad-gītā through your whims. That is nonsense. You must accept as it is. That is wanted. Mr. Malhotra: This Satya Sai Baba, he is also disciple of Kṛṣṇa. How he produces . . .? Prabhupāda: Then if he is disciple of Kṛṣṇa, he would not have foolishly said that he is Bhagavān. That means he is bogus. It is bogus . . . you cannot say . . . if you are disciple . . . just like they are my disciples. They will never say that they are equal to me. They will never say. Mr. Malhotra: No, no, but what power he has got to produce just now . . .? Prabhupāda: That anyone can do, magic, jugglery. It has no meaning. Mr. Malhotra: He got, you know, this money. Prabhupāda: Oh, he can get anything, but that is . . . magic. That is . . . magician also knows. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Professor Sarkar, a big magician, he kills . . . cuts people's body, then he joins them. Prabhupāda: So many things. Magic jugglery is . . . Mr. Malhotra: But there are some siddhis also. These siddhi , siddhis , some people. Prabhupāda: That is siddhi , magic also siddhi . You are successful businessman, that is also siddhi . That is also siddhi. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Even one is siddha , he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. That is said, yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Even one is siddha , still he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: He cannot understand . . .? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: But if he goes to āśrama , that where, and everybody sits there, the big Kṛṣṇa statue is there. In his room, personal room, Kṛṣṇa statue, and he has . . . Prabhupāda: If he is at all devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he will never say that he is Bhagavān. That is foolishness. That very assertion is foolishness. Mr. Malhotra: But Bhagavān, they don't call them Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: That they write in the books. They don't call, but write in the books. Hari-śauri: There was one article in the Blitz where it quoted him saying, "God is man, and man is God." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He said he is the incarnation for this age. Prabhupāda: And where is the evidence? Anyone can say: "I am incarnation." (laughter) Any rascal can say. Mr. Malhotra: Anyone can say. (laughing) *Prabhupāda: What is the proof? Just like this Ramakrishna, he was an illiterate priest, and at the time of his death he said to Vivekananda that, "I am Kṛṣṇa, I am Lord Rāma," and he accepted. He accepted. Ye sab chalta hai. hum bol diya hum bhi bhagvan hain aur hum maan liye, usko kya maloom. ek aadmi bola hum bahut amir aur phata kapda pehna hai hum usko maan le . . . (All this is going on. I say I am God and people will believe, what does he know. One man says I am very rich and wears torn clothes, can we believe him . . .) Let him create one motorcar. Why he's asking, "Please, sir, give me car"? That's all. He is such a great man—bogus. People are foolish persons, they are deviated by these bogus rascals. That is going on . . . sastra me jo hai wo nahi mante hain. Ṣaḍ*-aiśvarya-pūrṇam. bhagvan. Doosre se motor bheek mangta hai wo kaise bhagvan? Hum bolte hai hum bhagvan ka das, wo theek hai . . . (they don't follow what is given in the sastra . Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇam . Bhagavān. They beg from others for living how they can be Bhagavān? But we say we are servant of God, which is right . . .) Mr. Malhotra: Then he is servant, always servant? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nityānām , nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ . . . Servant sabi sochta hai hum kabhi malik ho jaye jo servant hai wo servant jaisa to hai koi malik ko sochne se aur doosre malik ke pas akarke usko pani lane do. (All the servants think, "When will I become the owner." The servant is like a servant, but when he considers himself an owner and orders another owner to get water for him.) Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Jeev ka ye swaroop hai. jo apne ko sochta hai mai bhagvan hoon. (The form of living entity is servant but he thinks "I am God".) That is his foolishness. And foolish person will accept. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Therefore He shall remain the Supreme always. We have to refer to the Vedic śāstras . Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate . This is description of Bhagavān, that He has nothing to do, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate . Uska magic deekha ki bhagvan thode ho jata hai, wo to bhagvan teen mahine ka hai. (If he shows magic he does not become God, that type of God is only for 3 months.) Either he is three months old or three years old or three hundred years old, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate , nobody can be equal or greater than Him. If someone is equal to Him, then how He is Bhagavān? Mr. Malhotra: How it can be that so many sages of the past, they proclaimed ahaṁ brahmāsmi . *Prabhupāda: Brahman. Brahman to hai hi, (You are Brahman,) because you are part and parcel of Parabrahman. That I have already told you, that gold, big gold and small particle, that is gold. Similarly, Bhagavān Parabrahman, and we are part and parcel of Him. Therefore I am Brahman. But I am not Parabrahman. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as Para*-brahman by Arjuna: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Para-brahman. So param , this word is used, Paramātmā, Parabrahman, Parameśvara. Why? That is the difference. One is supreme and one is subordinate. Subordinate Brahman. You are Brahman, there is no doubt of it. But not that Parabrahman. If you are Parabrahman, then why you are making sādhana to become Parabrahman? Why? If you are Parabrahman, then you are Parabrahman always. Why you have fallen in this condition that you have to perform sādhana to become Parabrahman? That is foolishness. You are not Parabrahman. You are Brahman. You are gold, a small particle. But you cannot say that "I am gold mine." That you cannot do. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So he is checking if it is time to go out . . . are you going to come with us also? Very good. Prabhupāda: Bring little water. These my disciples, they are part and parcel of me. Whole mission is going on with their cooperation. But if he says that, "I am equal to my Guru Mahārāja," then that is offense. Mr. Malhotra: Suppose guru desires that my disciple should rise higher than me. Prabhupāda: That means he is in lower stage. That you have to accept first of all. Mr. Malhotra: Like as a father sees that his children grow. Prabhupāda: Yes, still father begets father, and a child cannot become father. Mr. Malhotra: Father begets father, but he feels that he may . . . will progress . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Father may want to see that the son is equally qualified, but still the father is father, and child is child. That is perpetual. Similarly, a part and parcel of God may be very powerful, but that does not mean that he has become God. Mr. Malhotra: Other traditions, guru disciple, then the disciple becomes guru , then disciple. The gurus may change. Prabhupāda: They cannot change. If there are change of guru , the disciple acts. But does not . . . he'll never say that, "I have become equal or one with guru ." That is not so. Mr. Malhotra: I am thinking about this, Swāmījī, that your Guru Mahārāja is preaching through you, and you are preaching through them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: So disciple is guru through his disciples. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam (BG 4.2). But that does not become . . . he has become. He may be representative of guru , representative of God, but it does not mean that he has become God. Mr. Malhotra: But he becomes guru to his disciples. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Mr. Malhotra: Never equal to his guru . Prabhupāda: Not equal; representative. Not equal. I send one representative of this man, and he may be very expert, doing very good business, still he cannot be equal with me. He is acting as my representative, that's another thing. But not that he has become the original proprietor. Mr. Malhotra: But as your disciples, you are taken as guru . Prabhupāda: But they will never say that they have become equal with me, "I have advanced to be my guru ." Never say. Just like this boy, he is offering obeisances. He may be expert in preaching more than me, but he knows that, "I am subordinate." Otherwise, how he shall offer obeisances? He can think, "Oh, now I am so learned. I am so advanced. Why shall I accept him as superior?" No. That continues. Even after my death, after my disappearance, he will offer obeisances to my picture. Mr. Malhotra: But amongst his disciples he will be worshiped . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, but he remains a disciple of his guru . He will never say that, "Now I have become guru , so I don't care for my guru ." He will never say. Just like I am doing, but I am worshiping my guru still. So I remain subordinate to my guru , always. Even though I have become guru , still I am subordinate to my guru . Mr. Malhotra: But qualitatively . . . Prabhupāda: Qualitatively equal, I have already said. Not quantitatively. Mr. Malhotra: Qualitatively we are one. Quantitatively. Prabhupāda: Why? Do you think a grain of gold and a big gold lump is same? Mr. Malhotra: Gold, I think I am also gold. Prabhupāda: No, gold that is accepted, quality. That if you say . . . this is explanation—you must have brain to understand—that a small particle of gold and a big gold, they are gold in quality, but the big gold is millions of dollars and a small particle is few dollars. Just see. This is accepted. This Māyāvāda theory has made people atheists, that "I am God, I am equal to God." Very bad theory. Mr. Malhotra: From where these things also come? From where it comes? *Prabhupāda: From the Vedas . Vedas says, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate, Upaniṣads. Na tat*-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (CC Madhya 13.65, purport; Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8). *Mr. Malhotra: Who gives this asura*-buddhi ? From where this dirty, filth grows? *Prabhupāda: Asura*-buddhi and sura-buddhi , due to our little independence. Just like we are talking. So we do not agree; *therefore we are talking. So one of us may be asura and one may be sura . Therefore we do not agree. Otherwise, there is no use of talking. So that is natural. That is the conditioned stage. Because we are conditioned by the material nature, some of us are asuras and some of them are suras. Dvau bhūta*-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca (BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva , devatā , and asura . Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ smṛto daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ (Padma Purāṇa). Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are devatā , and just opposite number is asura . *Who does not recognize the authority of God, he is asura . He himself becomes God foolishly. That is not God. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ (BS 5.52). Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā . This, about the sun, description in the Brahma-saṁhitā. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ , unlimited potency, energy, heating energy. Such a powerful planet. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ . Still it is carrying out the order of somebody. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi : "I offer my obeisances to Govinda." But if I say I am equal to Govinda, I can stop sun, "Don't bother me by heating. Stop," will it become . . .? Then how I become all-powerful? Let me stop the activities of the sun. Or at night there is no sun, can I ask the sun, "Get up. I want light immediately"? Is it possible? Then how I become the God? Nobody cares for my order. Mr. Malhotra: They say those who know their Bhāgavata , they call themselves Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: That anyone can say, that "I know my Bhāgavata ." Nobody knows. I am Bhagavān but nobody cares for me. What kind of Bhagavān? It is rascal Bhagavān. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When Bhagavān has a toothache he goes to the dentist. Prabhupāda: Yes, when there's a toothache he goes to the doctor. These kind of nonsense has to be stopped. Otherwise people become atheists. "Anyone can become God, anyone can become Bhagavān." Mr. Malhotra: This Rajneesh, I tell you, he has . . . Prabhupāda: I don't say about Rajneesh because I have no acquaintance with him, but anyone says that he is Bhagavān, he can do anything. Mr. Malhotra: Somebody asked him, "Why you claim to be God, or Bhagavān?" He clarified that "It is not the creator or the equal Bhagavān. I know by . . . I have realized by . . ." Prabhupāda: But God says "I am the creator of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). This is Bhagavān. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can go, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. We will go to the car. (break) (in car) . . . to the sun planet, beginning is the sunshine. Mr. Malhotra: Yes, beginning is the sunshine. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, to go to the Absolute Truth, you begin with impersonal Brahman. Just as sunshine is impersonal, but everyone can see the sunshine is coming from the sun surface. Everyone knows that. Therefore the sunshine is not so important as the sun globe. Similarly brahma-tattva-nirviśeṣa , nirākāra-brahma is there, but more important than is the localized aspect. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61). God is all-pervading. The sunshine is all-pervading, and as Paramātmā He is also all-pervading. But if you can enter into the sun globe, you will meet with the sun-god. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā , imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke this philosophy to the sun-god." So there is sun-god. Sun-god and the sun globe and the sunshine, they are one, but different stages of understanding. Similarly, Brahman understanding, Paramātmā understanding, then the Supreme Personality of Godhead understanding. Advaya-jñāna. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). But if you stop simply in the sunshine, that means you have no knowledge of the sun*-god or the sun globe. If you have simply knowledge of the sun globe, then you are not aware of what is the sun-god. But if you know sun-god, then you know what is sun globe and the sunshine. That is wanted. That is perfect knowledge. *Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). When, after many many births, when one is actually in knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, understanding that Kṛṣṇa is everything, that mahātmā is sudurlabha , very rare. Somebody knows only impersonal Brahman, the jñānīs . Somebody knows the Paramātmā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe (BG 18.61). And one who knows Kṛṣṇa, he is perfect. (break) . . . this stage of understanding Kṛṣṇa, your knowledge is imperfect. (break) . . . śāstras , but unfortunately we do not refer to the authority of the śāstras . We manufacture our own way. Mr. Malhotra: No, actually what has happened is that there has been too many interpretations. Prabhupāda: There cannot be interpretations. Mr. Malhotra: No, there are certain people . . . Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Mr. Malhotra: That is what I said, huh. So there are so many interpretations that you get confused. Because of the same thing, some interpret, say, a different way. *Prabhupāda: One thing is that you have to become intelligent. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Now why I shall accept interpretation on these plain words? That is my foolishness. If somebody says, " dharma-kṣetra means this body and Pāṇḍava means the five senses," why this nonsense interpretation? If you are not intelligent, then you will accept such rascals interpreting unnecessarily. Interpretation is required when things are not very clear. But when the things are clear, why you should accept interpretation? That is my foolishness. There is no need of interpretation. (break) . . . is it still there? Why, if the rascal interprets, "Kurukṣetra means this body," why shall I accept it? Kurukṣetra is still there. There is no difficulty to understand. And if somebody interprets . . . (break) . . . interpretation, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that as soon as you interpret, the whole thing is lost. So why shall I be so foolish, I shall accept something which is lost? Mr. Malhotra: No. Rather, Kṛṣṇa had His own interpretation. Prabhupāda: That may be, but why shall I accept? Mr. Malhotra: . . . had His own interpretation rather. All the people who share . . . *Prabhupāda: You have, interpretation, you have to refer to the Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā says as soon as you accept interpretation, it is lost. Mr. Malhotra: Then the meaning is lost. Prabhupāda: Bās . So under the circumstances . . . that means I am also foolish. Any rascal gives any interpretation—I accept. That is my foolishness. So why should I become foolish? Radhakrishnan may be very big man, but if he does something wrong, he will be hanged. *Mr. Malhotra: No, he . . . ślokas are there. All the Bhagavad*-gītā ślokas are there. Prabhupāda: But I must have intelligence that why this rascal is interpreting in a different way. Mr. Malhotra: And Sanskrit is the language. So it has got the same . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not very difficult. Just like in the Ninth Chapter, Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). And Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Why? Kṛṣṇa says, "Just think of Me— man-manāḥ —just become My devotee, and just offer Me obeisances, worship Me." It is plain language. And if some rascal says: "No, no, it is not to Kṛṣṇa," why shall I accept it? Mr. Malhotra: It is not the personified Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: You have read it? Mr. Malhotra: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, you see. I shall immediately detect that here is a rascal. Because Kṛṣṇa says personally, and he says it is not to the person. Just see. Mr. Malhotra: But Kṛṣṇa had been on this earth in flesh and bones. *Prabhupāda: That is history, Mahābhārata . And all the ācāryas , they have accepted—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka. Svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me (BG 10.13). Arjuna accepts Him, Para*-brahman. You are Para-brahman. Not that "Because I am Your friend and I am accepting You as Para-brahman," but all the ācāryas , they have accepted. (break) . . . mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam . "Because I am talking with you as a human being, only rascals, they think I am human being." If you think Kṛṣṇa as having flesh and bone, then you become a rascal, immediately. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam , paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11): "I am not made of this bone and flesh. I am cinmaya , I am fully spirit soul." So one who does not know it, he is a rascal. So as soon as you will say that He is made of bone and flesh, that means you are rascal. (laughter) Why shall I hear you? Mr. Malhotra: When Lord Kṛṣṇa came into being, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: That does not mean that . . . suppose I am here. I am driving with you. But there is difference between you and me. So Kṛṣṇa comes as human being, that does not mean He is human being. Why don't you understand this? Mr. Malhotra: That is okay. But from the normal, you know . . . Prabhupāda: That is your study. That is foolish study. Therefore He says avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11): "The rascals think that I am one of the human being." If he is one of the human being, how he can say, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). In the human society, there are big men, you are big man, I am small man, he is still more, he is still more, he is still bigger. There are so many varieties. But He says: "No more superior than Me." And that is God. Mr. Malhotra: No one is supreme than Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: That He says, of course. Prabhupāda: He says everything, but because we are foolish we do not hear Him. That is the difficulty. Mr. Malhotra: We don't understand Him. Prabhupāda: No, we understand. But we do not accept it. Mr. Malhotra: We don't accept it. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty to understand? God is superior. Everyone knows it. But I will not accept, he will not accept. Unless one is superior, how He can be God? (break) . . . sevayā . Therefore you have to find out somebody who knows Him. Otherwise you will be in darkness. (break) *Mr. Malhotra: (indistinct Hindi) . . . over bridge. But where we are going, Ambleshwar, from there Kṛṣṇā*-nadī starts. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Kṛṣṇā*-nadī is for us. Mr. Malhotra: From Ambleshwar. Then there is old, old mandir, very old mandir, temple, there are five, they say, five nadīs are coming. Prabhupāda: Oh, Kaumuda, Kāverī . . . Mr. Malhotra: Kṛṣṇā, Kāverī, Veṇā . . . five rivers, they say, they flow from there. We will go there. Tomorrow morning we'll go there. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . just now. In the morning it was little cold. Now it is very pleasing. Mr. Malhotra: It is. But since you have been going all over the Europe and Am . . . you must be accustomed to cold. It is severe cold. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I was going to morning walk when there was snowfall. I was walking on snow. Mr. Malhotra: Actually when snow falls it is not very cold, but when there is breeze, then it is very unbearable. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. (break) Mr. Malhotra: . . . the first month, I think, except April and May. All the rest months. Prabhupāda: All the year. Mr. Malhotra: May is quite hot, and April . . . Prabhupāda: Beginning. Mr. Malhotra: Not beginning. Middle of April to May and June. Then in June rain starts. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . legislation that fifty percent of revenues was spent in military. Bhaya*-vitta . (break) Mr. Malhotra: Tad guru vijñāta . . . Prabhupāda: Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). *Mr. Malhotra: Guru*-vijñāna . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: No. This is Vedic injunction. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Abhigacchet , this word is used. This means "must," vidhi*-liṅ . This is the form of vidhi-liṅ , in grammar. Vidhi-liṅ is applied when there is no question of duality. You must. If you want to know that transcendental science, you must approach guru . Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham . And who is guru ? Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam. Śrotriyam means one who is guru by hearing from his guru , śrotriyam . This is paramparā . Not that all of a sudden he becomes guru . No. That is not guru . Guru means śrotriyam. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). And after hearing perfectly from his guru , he is brahma-niṣṭham . Just like Arjuna, after hearing from Kṛṣṇa, his guru , he became devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Not became, he was devotee. Still he became perfect devotee. Brahma-niṣṭham . This is the guru's qualification. *And in another, the Bhāgavata it is said, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). One must surrender to guru who is actually inquisitive, yes, about the Absolute Truth. What kind of inquisitive? Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam : the best aim of life or transcendental aim of life. He requires guru . Then what is guru' s qualification? The next line is that tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam, śābde pare ca niṣṇātam (SB 11.3.21). Guru is completely in awareness of all the Vedic knowledge. That is guru . Not a loafer class. (laughter) Śrotriyam . One who has heard perfectly Vedas from his guru . And what is the symptom that he has heard from the authority of the . . .? Brahma*-niṣṭham. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . The symptom is that he has completely taken shelter of the Supreme Brahman, rejecting or finishing all material desires. No more material desires. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . He has taken shelter of Brahman, upaśama , rejecting—no more hankering after anything material. Mr. Malhotra: No more hankering. But he has to eat. He has to eat, he has to clothe. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not hankering. That is not hankering. Mr. Malhotra: The minimum needs of the body. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so long the body is there. That is wanted. Just like about the Gosvāmīs it is said, nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . One has to conquer over sleeping, eating, sex and fearing. A saintly person has no fearing, because he depends on Kṛṣṇa. But these things particularly conquered over. Simply little eating, that's all. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi . At least trying to conquer over sleeping, eating and sex. Mr. Malhotra: Sleeping, eating and . . . Prabhupāda: Sex life. (break) Mr. Malhotra: . . . sleeping at all, or some little sleep? Prabhupāda: Practically no sleeping. Practically no eating and no sex life. Mr. Malhotra: Sleeping means actual sleeping or awareness, I mean awakening of the mind or awakening . . . Prabhupāda: No, actual sleeping. Sleeping means waste of time. So long you sleep, it is a waste of time. Better reduce sleep. Mr. Malhotra: But you have to sleep sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes, some, some. Mr. Malhotra: Some part of the day or part of the . . . Prabhupāda: That also you will find, those who are highly elevated, they can avoid. Mr. Malhotra: They can completely avoid sleeping? Hundred percent? Prabhupāda: No. They can, but they do not show like that. (laughter) Otherwise, artificially one would like to imitate it. Mr. Malhotra: But in the medical theory they are saying so much insomnia. Prabhupāda: No insomnia, he becomes mad. (laughter) That is another thing. That is disease. Hari-śauri: One of my parents' friends, she hadn't been to sleep for seven months because of a nervous condition when she was going crazy. I saw that. Mr. Malhotra: There must be sleeping pills. Prabhupāda: Yes, in Western countries, tranquilizer. Mr. Malhotra: I was in America, you know. So in New York I stayed in one hotel, and every evening, that bellboy, he was keeping two tablets for each of us in the room. Actually, I don't know what type of tablets they have done. We have slept thoroughly. In the morning he came to make the bedding. So he said, "Sir, you have not taken these tablets?" I said: "What are these tablets?" "Sleeping pills." I said, "No, I don't take it." "And you could sleep?" I said: "Yes." Then he said: "Can I have these?" "Yes, yes, you can have by all means." (laughter) So he took away all the pills for his own use. So I mean most of the people, they can't sleep without these sleeping pills. Their mind is so agitated and so disturbed. This material . . . *Prabhupāda: Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyām , in the śāstra it is said: "In the material world everyone is always full of anxiety." Full of anxiety. Mr. Malhotra: The more you're engrossed in material things, the more anxiety you are in. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained. Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because he has accepted something which is asat—asat means which will not endure, such things—on account of this, he is always full of anxieties. Asat , this body is asat . Asad-grahāt . Because we have accepted this material body, we must be always full of anxieties. Asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). Although this body is temporary, still, so long the body is there, he will suffer. Kleśada . Kleśada means always giving trouble—this trouble, that trouble, this trouble, that trouble. Mr. Malhotra: This road straight leads to Bangalore, Madras. This road goes to south, entire south. You can go by this road only to Kanyakumari. Prabhupāda: Oh! Mr. Malhotra: Yes, Cape Comorin, right up to Calicut. Prabhupāda: And all the tīrthas are on the four sides. Very good road? Mr. Malhotra: Last year in the month of December I went to Rāmeśvaram. Prabhupāda: On this road? Mr. Malhotra: On this road. Of course, I went by air to Bangalore, and from there we went by car. But this road goes straight. (break) . . . by car, to Calcutta by air, then from there to that Bhubaneshwar by train, and then from there by car, like that. (break) It is very small place, Dvārakā. It is very small place, and in that leak was, an entire area was destroyed completely. Even communications could not be restored for three months. But Dvārakā itself was untouched completely. But on the way we found, because we went by car from here, we found roads, everything was destroyed completely. You could see demolished, the tops of houses gone away in the cyclone. Prabhupāda: Maharashtra Province is rich? I don't think so. Mr. Malhotra: It is like this, that Maharashtra is industrially quite stable. But that only Bombay and one, two cities. The rest of the Maharashtra is poor. There is not much cultivation. Prabhupāda: But industry, it belongs to the other persons, not to the Maharashtrians. Mr. Malhotra: Hmm? Prabhupāda: All these Bombay industries, they belong to the outsiders. *Mr. Malhotra: Outsiders. Now in Punjab, for instance, now they have created sufficient wheat to cater the entire country. That is four*-fifths of the total need of the country of wheat is supplied by Punjab. Prabhupāda: But it is always. Mr. Malhotra: Punjab and Haryana, now they are two, but both together. Prabhupāda: Punjab is the best province in India. Mr. Malhotra: You know we came and settled in Poona after partition of the country. Previously we were in Rawalpindi. (to the driver) Kya kar rahe ho bhai? (What are you doing brother?) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . on my way to Kashmir. Mr. Malhotra: Yes, because at Rawalpindi you could get taxi, then buses. After Rawalpindi you have to go by train. Then from there you could get car, taxi, and in those days there were yakas also. You know. Tongas. Tongas or buses. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . young age when I was twenty*-five years. (break) . . . via Jammu. Mr. Malhotra: Jammu, Jammu and Kashmir. Prabhupāda: Yes. And I came back via Rawalpindi. Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā , you came back via Rawalpindi. (break) You have, I mean, thought of spiritual bending, or spiritual . . . *Prabhupāda: No, we are trained up, because we belong to Kṛṣṇa family. So Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship is our family tradition. Our forefathers, my father, my maternal uncles, we are Vaiṣṇava family, belonging to the Caitanya- sampradāya . Mr. Malhotra: But how you entered in business, I mean. Prabhupāda: Because we were trained up from the very beginning of our life by our father, mother. Mr. Malhotra: Grandfather also? *Prabhupāda: Yes, our whole family. We have our family Deity, Dāmodara. In my childhood I was worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities. And then, fortunately, I got my Guru Mahārāja, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. So this was a good fortune, from the very beginning we were trained up. So in the beginning of our life, I was worshiping Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and playing with Ratha-yātrā. The same thing is being done now, in a larger scale. (laughter) Nitya yukta upāsate . There is no change. *Mr. Malhotra: People must be very curious in California when this Ratha*-yātrā, Jagannātha. They must be very curious. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But they enjoy very much. They enjoy very much. Those who are even not my students, they also come to me, "Thank you, Prabhupāda. Thank you, Prabhupāda." They say like that. They enjoy very much, dance like anything, when the Ratha*-yātrā goes. They say: "It is life." They are dancing. "This is life. We do not know what is happening, but we are dancing." They say like that. Mr. Malhotra: Dancing, this ballroom dancing? *Prabhupāda: No, around the road, Hare Kṛṣṇa dancing. (laughter) There is no need of ballroom. They become mad, dancing. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana*-gāna-nartana-parau . That is ecstasy. So when the ecstasy is there, they understand this is life. (break) Mr. Malhotra: Mr. Biyani, Biyani. He is just Birla's tea company chairman looking after tea. Last time I was in Delhi about two months back, so I just talked about you that I had to meet you and we could go to Vṛndāvana. Because at that time I was told that you were there. So he knew you very well; he had been to your discourses, Mr. Biyani. He's Marwari. They are in Calcutta, that tea business, export tea business. We agreed on one this thing, that it is very easy, rather, to make Indians understand the spiritual teachings of Lord Kṛṣṇa, because in homes, in houses, forefathers, grandmothers, mothers, they are doing, I mean, always. But to, I mean, impart this knowledge to the . . . Prabhupāda: Foreigners. Mr. Malhotra: Foreigners, and that to who have more or less completely, I mean, very much away from the spiritual life, very much engrossed in material life, very much engrossed. And it was something very, very, very difficult, right? Without the blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Therefore their fathers are charging me that "This man knows something, mesmerism." (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: Their fathers are charging with that this man knows some mesmerism. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Brainwash. Mr. Malhotra: Brainwash, ācchā. How you entered in their hearts? Prabhupāda: Mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Mr. Malhotra: Hare Kṛṣṇa mesmerism. That is also mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . *Prabhupāda: Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). This is the process of cleansing the heart. So if it is done properly, everyone becomes cleansed of all dirty things. Naturally he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. Mr. Malhotra: I was rather very much surprised when I first met, Prabhupāda, about four or five devotees on the streets of this Honolulu, Honolulu first. Because I went from this side, Japan, Hong Kong, Thailand, and then entered in America through Honolulu, Hawaii. So when I went I was just in the morning, I was trying to get the tourist bus for moving in the whole city to see. And then on the main road, you know that main road . . . have you been to Honolulu? Prabhupāda: No. He has gone. Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā . You have been to Honolulu? Hari-śauri: Yeah. Mr. Malhotra: Five devotees were having drums, this khol , they were dancing like, I mean, in their own mood, you know. So then I had a curiosity. I just stopped one of them and I said: "Well, mister, I would like to know about all this." He said, "Yes, you come to our temple in the morning and we'll tell you all about it." But I said that, "What you are doing?" "We are playing kīrtana ." I said, "Well, why you are out on the streets?" "Because these all demons. These are all demons, you know." Prabhupāda: Demons. Mr. Malhotra: ". . . demons, you know. So those who do not have any spiritual knowledge, so we want to penetrate in their ears, and through their ears in their hearts, the name of Kṛṣṇa. So that even if they don't like it, well, the Kṛṣṇa name should enter in their hearts." Prabhupāda: That is . . . this mantra . . . Mr. Malhotra: "So that is what we are doing. So even if they don't like it we are doing. So whosoever is passing by, he will have at least his ears will be accustomed to hear the name of Lord Kṛṣṇa." I said: "But in *Gītā* it is said that those who do not wish to know the true knowledge, well, it is forbidden for the devotees or for the followers to tell them anything about spiritual knowledge." "So that, sir, we are not giving, imparting knowledge to each individual by catching them. We are just playing ourselves. So whosoever likes it, he can stand by us. Otherwise we are not . . ." So they replied also correctly to this also. Prabhupāda: Yes, and Kṛṣṇa says . . . Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā , then I said: "What is this?" "This is śikhā ." I said: "Well what it is meant for?" So he said: "Well, this is the . . ." What he told me was this exactly, that the aerial of knowledge. He said that this is the aerial of knowledge. I said: "Is it your own interpretation?" "No, but I think that I feel that way. This is the aerial of knowledge." (break) . . . that, "You come have prasādam in the morning." So next day we had to leave actually. So we were in the morning busy going to airport. Then I met in this New York. Then when I came to Europe, then I was sitting in one restaurant in London, and then a big group of about 15, 18, 20 devotees, they were having a good chanting, and they were . . . Prabhupāda: Our men regularly go on the Oxford St. Mr. Malhotra: Yes, Oxford. On that street only there was Indian restaurant where this rasagullās and tea and all that is available. So we were sitting having our this thing, and then they passed. Prabhupāda: Our men, they can prepare rasagullā , samosā , kachorī . Mr. Malhotra: Now this Bombay center, when I visited, Girirāja he showed me, and the restaurant, that vegetarian restaurant which will be coming up, that is good. (break) . . . I mean is it regular new films are being made, or only one or two films have been made so far? Girirāja: We make more films. Hari-śauri: There's another one just coming up now which explains the philosophy in more detail. The films were to show general activities, that was The Hare Kṛṣṇa People. The new film was to show the farming scheme that Prabhupāda set up in New Vrindavan, and many other farms we have now. And there was one other film to show how the books are produced and then delivered to the public. So gradually more and more are coming out. Mr. Malhotra: You know one thing I have found that there is spotless cleanliness, you know, in the centers. Whereas in our temples here in India, even when we go to say Hardwar and Rishikesh and all these, the temples, the outer cleanliness, not proper emphasis is given by the management. Prabhupāda: I stress on this cleanliness very much. If they keep unclean, I chastise them like anything. (laughing) They have learned this art. I always say, "Cleanliness is next to godliness." *Mr. Malhotra: About two years back, two, three of your devotees came to our house here. Naturally we offered them, "Would you like to have coffee, tea?" They said: "No." Then we said: "Would you like to have Coca*-cola?" They said, "No." Then I said: "What would you like to have? Milk?" "Yes." Lassi , chach ? "Yes." Fruit. "Yes." It happened so that Girirāja came to us twice, and twice it was this ekādaśī . Now ekādaśī day they are not supposed to eat this wheat or flour or anything. So when last we came to Mahabaleshwar, so we brought some paraṭās with this gobi in it. Prabhupāda: Ekādaśī . Mr. Malhotra: We didn't know about ekādaśī . When we came to Mahabaleshwar, we opened. They said: "No, we can't eat because it is ekādaśī ." So we thought that, "No, you won't eat, so it looks odd that we should eat." But we were very hungry, you know. In the morning we didn't take anything. We said: "All right, we eat, now we will go to the bazaar and see if we could get something." Then we went to Mahabaleshwar, it was all closed, because it was raining season. And then there was one shop which had bananas, you know, good amount of bananas. So we took one dozen or two dozen bananas, and then . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: Banana is very good. You can make banana and potato. Potato boil and mixed with banana, and make nice purī . And then . . . *Mr. Malhotra: How Girirāja, I just ask you, how you sort of took to all these good things, I would say, of life? I mean in natural form, or with some self*-discipline, or with some coercion, or with some what? Girirāja: It was Prabhupāda's mercy. I was looking for a guru . Actually, whenever I heard there was a svāmī or a yogī , I would always go, even hundreds of miles. But I was never satisfied. But Śrīla Prabhupāda perfectly satisfied all of my questions. And I liked the process—chanting, dancing, taking prasādam , offering ārati —and I liked the devotees. It was very pleasing. So I immediately decided this is my real life. Mr. Malhotra: No, but not taking any wheat, like on ekādaśī day, all such things, I mean. Girirāja: That's training. Once we surrender to the spiritual master, then he trains us in the process of spiritual life. *Prabhupāda: Sādhu*-mārgānugamanam. Ādau gurvāśrayaṁ sad-dharma-pṛcchāt sādhu-mārgānugamanam . These are the process. *Mr. Malhotra: Sādhu*-mārga . *Prabhupāda: Sādhu*-mārga . Girirāja: We study the śāstras every morning and evening in all of our centers, so we become educated. (break) Prabhupāda: Four places: Hardwar, Prayāga, Vṛndāvana . . . Mr. Malhotra: But after every eleven years or . . .? Prabhupāda: No. It comes in rotation, every four years. *Mr. Malhotra: Every four years. So there are sort of ardha*-kumbhīs and then kumbha . *Prabhupāda: Yes. In Allahabad they actually hold every year, Māgha*-mela . *Mr. Malhotra: Māgha*-mela . But this is not every year, this time people are . . . Prabhupāda: It is very, I mean to say, atmosphere becomes surcharged. Great spiritual advancement. Very nice. Mr. Malhotra: Abhi 15 tarik ko wahan par kuch hai kuch, aap ja rahe hain, kab jayenge? (On 15th there is some event happening there. Are you going? When are you going?) Prabhupāda:': ' Jayenge 15 tarik tak. aap aaiye. (Yes I will go around 15th.) Prabhupāda: Iran is like that, but no green, simply sand. Mr. Malhotra: They are the mountains of Deccan. They say that these all mountains were under sea. *Prabhupāda: Yes, everything was . . . pralaya*-payodhi-jale dhṛtavān asi vedam . (break) *Mr. Malhotra: Swamiji yahan par bhi south me bade ache*-ache mandir hain. (Swamiji, here also in the South there are very good temples.) (break) . . . for quite some time at a particular spot. This spot was shown to us. And people have very great reverence for that spot. So now, at one time we accept Lord Rāma the supreme master of a particular yuga , and then He had to worship Lord Śiva. So who is, I mean, supreme? Lord Śiva or Lord Rāma? Prabhupāda: Lord Rāma is the Lord. Śiva is devotee. Sometimes you wash the feet of your son. That does not mean you are a servant Mr. Malhotra: Sometime . . .? Prabhupāda: You wash the feet of your son. But that does not mean you are a servant of the son. Kṛṣṇa . . . why Rāma? Kṛṣṇa, when Sudāmā Vipra came to His house, He washed his feet. Mr. Malhotra: Sab bhakton ke bhagat. (The supreme of all the devotees.) *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa immediately got down from His siṁhāsana and took his lotus . . . touch his feet. And Nārada Muni was smiling. Nara*-līlā. Mr. Malhotra: Nārada Muni was smiling. Ye bhagvan kya kar rahe hain? (What is God doing?) Prabhupāda: Nārada Muni knew it that He is the Supreme Lord, but he did not check it. Mr. Malhotra: He let Lord Kṛṣṇa bow. This is the biggest paradox. *Prabhupāda: Mad*-bhakta-pūjābhyadhika (SB 11.19.21). Kṛṣṇa is pleased when His devotee is worshiped. Kṛṣṇa kabhi-kabhi radharani ka payr choota hai. (Kṛṣṇa sometimes touches the feet of Radharani.) Mr. Malhotra: Now I went to Dvārakā Purī, so there is Bheda Dvārakā in the sea. One is Dvārakā Purī, then about, I think, ten, twelve miles away there is Bheda Dvārakā. At Bheda Dvārakā, that is the residential palace of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and seven rāṇīs of Lord Kṛṣṇa. They show each building, their whole building. So what was that? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa had 16,108 queens. Mr. Malhotra: 16,108 queens. 16,108. But there they show only, I think, 8 or 7. Prabhupāda: All are described, that He had 16,000 palaces. And Nārada Muni came to see Him, what He is doing actually. He saw different activities, and Kṛṣṇa expanded Himself to 16,108. Each rāṇī had ten sons, Mr. Malhotra: Each rāṇī had ten sons. *Prabhupāda: And they had sons also. In this way the Yadu*-vaṁśa was crores. Mr. Malhotra: There was one story that Lord Kṛṣṇa was going on rath (chariot), and then He had to be at the place of horse of the rath because of some śhrap (curse) of some muni. That is given there.Idhar bhuma do. (Turn around here.) (break) So we get frustrated. But where the first apple came? Where the very seed of first apple planted on this earth planet? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bījo 'haṁ sarva*-bhūtānām (BG 7.10). Kṛṣṇa answered this question. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām : "I am the original seed of everything." Mr. Malhotra: Otherwise, it is very difficult, that wherefrom the very first seed came. Prabhupāda: And He says another place: *Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). Everything is answered in Bhagavad*-gītā . (break) There is river, there is fountain . . . Mr. Malhotra: River, fountain . . . (indistinct) . . . volumes. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . written by D. L. Raya. Dhana dhanyo puspa bhara amader ei vasundhārā . . . (indistinct) . . . hari hari āche. Tāhar majhe āche deśe eka sakala deśe sera . "Out of all these countries, there is a first*-class country, and that is my country, India." Dhana dhanyo puspa bhara amader ei vasundhārā , Tāhar majhe āche deśe eka sakala deśe sera . So the India is sakala deśe sera , the best of all other countries. Indian man: best of all countries. Aisa kyon hai, Indai ko hi shreya mile sara. (Why is it that India gets all the credit?) All saints . . . *Prabhupāda: No, actually, India is the best country. There is no doubt. Even these boys, they say India is the best. Puṇya*-bhūmi . Religion agar study karna hai to India. sab communist ko sikhate hain (If you want to study religion then go to India. They teach all the communists) that "If you want to study religion, then go to India." These boys of Western countries, they come to India not to learn the so-called science. They have enough in their country. They do not come here how to manufacture aeroplane. Mr. Malhotra: For technology we have to go there. Prabhupāda: There is no need. Indian man: No need. Prabhupāda: It is simply bogus. The first thing you require . . . you have got this body. You have to eat something and you have to dress yourself. You can get from this land. Keep some cows, grow your agricultural product, and sow cotton, then all economic problem is solved. And save time and understand what is your relationship with God. That is India. This is Vedic civilization. Mr. Malhotra: This era happened in the past similar. Prabhupāda: India is based on this principle. Mr. Malhotra: In every era demons and good people must be. Prabhupāda: That is there. Mr. Malhotra: Always must be there. The ratio may be different. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: Bad and good, mātra may be different. Prabhupāda: But India is especially meant for understanding God. That is India's . . . just like this place, such a nice place, automatically you'll remember God. Mr. Malhotra: You will like this place, this Panchgani, where we are going now. A wonderful peaceful place, very peaceful. The atmosphere . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . live peacefully, save time, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is my mission. Mr. Malhotra: The requirement of every human being is . . . Prabhupāda: Very simple. Mr. Malhotra: Very simple. But all these, you know, these added, added, added . . . Prabhupāda: That is asuric. Yes. To increase artificially necessities of life. And become entangled. *These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life. The aim of life is to go back home, back to Godhead. That they do not know. They are trying to adjust things by material arrangement. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā . This hope will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . This material energy is the external energy of the Lord. So they are enamored by the external energy; *they have no information of the internal energy, svarūpa-śakti . Just like every one of us in the conditioned state, we are busy with this body, the external energy. And the internal energy, the soul, is there. We have no information. Although we practically daily see that as soon as the internal energy is off, it is nothing but as good as the stone. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ . They are giving importance to this external energy. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And they are being encouraged by the so-called leaders to give stress on this external energy, although they are tightly tied with the laws of nature. The laws of nature will finish this body. But still they are attached to this body. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ . I had been to that Gandhi's place. Mr. Malhotra: Gandhi's place, Wardha. Prabhupāda: Wardha. And I saw his cottage and everything. So I said this is the . . . after all, he wanted to live very simple life in a cottage. Why he declared war against the Britishers? What was the necessity? Boliye hamara question theek hai ki nahi to unko . . . me hi rehna hai. (Tell me if my question is correct or not, so they must stay in the . . .) Britishers would never tackled you or objected. The villagers were using. Why so much energy was engaged, to drive away the Britishers? Mr. Malhotra: No, he wanted the country to be free from the foreign rule. Prabhupāda: No, now what freedom we have got? (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: That is a different thing. *Prabhupāda: But that means . . . we do not get such information from Bhagavad*-gītā , that "Make your country free." Why he took Bhagavad-gītā and did this business, mislead people? He took Bhagavad-gītā and he was busy declaring war. Because politically, sometimes required. But the thing is that if your ideal is to live very simple life . . . his, I mean to say, followers, Jawaharlal Nehru, he did not take up this. Mr. Malhotra: He used to stay in bhangi colonies, Gandhi. Hmm? *Prabhupāda: So, and he was killed in the bhangi colony. No, he was killed in the Birla's place. And there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. Although he was thinking, "This is my life, Bhagavad*-gītā "—without Kṛṣṇa. What is this? *Mr. Malhotra: Bhagavad*-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? He never commented on Third Chapter. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Any chapter. The beginning is bhagavān uvāca . Now how he can describe Bhagavān? This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). *Mr. Malhotra: He used Bhagavad*-gītā for political purposes. *Prabhupāda: That is, political purpose, you may. But even politically, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7): "Fight. But always remember Me." That is politics. Kṛṣṇa never says that you forget and fight. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). This is Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa never says that, "You give up politics." Actually, the Battle of Kurukṣetra is politics. But still Kṛṣṇa is there. How you can discard Kṛṣṇa? Mr. Malhotra: Yes, Battle of Kurukṣetra was fought . . . Prabhupāda: Politics. Senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta. Senayor ubhayor madhye (BG 1.21): "Between the two soldiers, keep my chariot, my dear Acyuta." He is addressing Acyuta. Acyuta, Kṛṣṇa, agreed to become his chariot driver. Therefore he is purposefully using this word acyuta . "Because I know You are the Supreme Lord, and I am ordering You, but because You promised that You will carry my order, Acyuta, You never fail in Your work." So God's another name is Acyuta. God never falls down. This Māyāvādī theory that, "I am God, now I am fallen down," that is wrong theory. How God can fall down? If God falls down He is not God. Dog fall down, not the God. Mr. Malhotra: How can He be supreme if He can fall down? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Na māṁ karmāṇi limpanti na me karma*-phale spṛhā (BG 4.14): "I have nothing to do, and neither if anyway I act, the resultant action does not affect Me." But we are all karma-phala vatya . So how God and myself can be equal? Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa . There is daiva , there is superior arrangement. According to my karma I get a different type of body. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye (SB 3.31.1). Mr. Malhotra: But when I surrender my karmas to Almighty . . . *Prabhupāda: Then ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣ . . . (BG 18.66), then Kṛṣṇa takes care of you. Mr. Malhotra: Then those karmas don't affect . . .? *Prabhupāda: No. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (BS 5.54). Those who are bhaktas , their karmas are finished. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi . Devotee is not under karma-phala . Hmm? *Mr. Malhotra: Devotee is not under karma*-phala . Prabhupāda: He is Brahman, immediately. Liberated soul. Without being liberated, nobody can be engaged in devotional service. (break) Mr. Malhotra: Then if one understands ahaṁ brahmāsmi . . . Prabhupāda: No, simply does not understand ahaṁ brahmāsmi , but he engages himself in devotional service. That is not the end. Simply by understanding that "I am this," that is not sufficient. "I am this, and this is my duty." Mr. Malhotra: "I am this, and this is my duty." Then that is what is . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is liberation. *That is perfection of brahma*-jñāna . Mr. Malhotra: But in the final analysis, at . . . Prabhupāda: Final analysis is devotional service. Mr. Malhotra: The paraṁ pada . They even advocate, means Lord Kṛṣṇa advocates, that all icchā , every type of icchā , icchā of even mukti . . . *Prabhupāda: That is negation. Just like you become freed from fever. So the symptoms of fever finished. But your healthy life begins. And after submission of the fever, still you lie down, that is not cured. Cure will be recognized when you work in your healthy state. That is bhakti . After becoming brahma*-bhūya , the activities should be devotional service. Then it is healthy life, liberated life. Mr. Malhotra: Without any ākāṅkṣā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Ākāṅkṣā is also there. That ākāṅkṣā is different. That ākāṅkṣā , how to please Kṛṣṇa, that ākāṅkṣā . In the material stage, the ākāṅkṣā is how to please my senses. In the liberated stage, how to please Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: By pleasing Lord, one does not please one's own ego also to some extent? Prabhupāda: It is just like if you put water on the root of the tree, so all the parts of the tree may become satisfied, automatically. Or if you put food in the stomach, all the parts of your body becomes satisfied—that is automatic. You don't require to make a separate endeavor. That is not required. Mr. Malhotra: Is there any difference between the ego of a person who is collecting money, or material things, all his life, or a person who is giving all the material things for the service of the humanity at large? Is there any difference between the two? *Prabhupāda: To give your fruits of . . . result of your fruitive activities, either you give to yourself or to your brothers and sisters, it is the same thing. Expanded. Just like a child eats, but when he is little grown up, he gives to his brother also. But the principle is the same. But when you give everything to God, that is liberated stage. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat kuruṣva tad mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27). Mr. Malhotra: Meaning? Prabhupāda: Meaning, "Whatever you do, you give me Me; whatever you eat, you give to Me." Yad aśnāsi dadāsi yat : "You want to give in charity, you give to Me." (break) We have to cross this hill? Mr. Malhotra: Yes, we have to cross the hill. And then we again go on plain, then to cross another hill. But they are small, only three, four miles. We have already crossed one near Poona. That was also a small hill. This is called Khandala ghat. That was called (marathi) Kaprij. Some Kaprij Rishi, I think. Ah, there's the name, Kaprij. (break) Mr. Malhotra: Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana. And Bombay. Mr. Malhotra: Now in March it will be completed, this Kṛṣṇa center? Girirāja: It will be almost completed, but we will open. Everything will begin, our activities. Prabhupāda: Tumhen dekha gaya hai? (You have seen?) Mr. Malhotra: Ah. Prabhupāda: They say it will be a unique temple in Bombay. (break) Mr. Malhotra: The whole planning. My son is getting married on 24th of January. The younger son who went to factory this morning. He is getting married. And we are going, taking bride from here to Juhu. There is Hotel Horizon there, near Kṛṣṇa Land. So the bride will be staying there in Horizon, and then from there procession will be going to Sun and Sand, Sun and Sand, so on 24th. Whether you will be in Bombay or not, 24th January? Prabhupāda: May not be. Because Kumbha Mela is there. (break) Mr. Malhotra: . . . that auditorium. Prabhupāda: Yes, auditorium. Mr. Malhotra: This road goes to Bangalore straight, and we go to Mahabaleshwar. This is side. Prabhupāda: Bangalore how many miles? Mr. Malhotra: Total, from Poona, 520 miles. And you go from here on this road only to Goa also. Prabhupāda: Goa. Mr. Malhotra: Goa, yes. To go to Madras, you go also on this road. (break) . . . dolak. Some people will give . . . I mean sounds are different, you know, instruments are music. *Prabhupāda: This is called musical science, Jala*-taraṅga . Jala . Taraṅga means vibration, different vibration. Still there are, among the musicians, there are artists, they'll put vials and make the different tune by filling it with water: dn-dn-dn-dn , dn-dn . (break) Mr. Malhotra: This place is full of tourists from Bombay, from all of Gujarat. (break) Panchgani is one place, and twelve miles' difference, Mahabaleshwar. Also it is twin city like Secunderabad, Hyderabad. (break) In the morning when you go for walk you will find local ladies getting load of food from collected from the forests and taking. Very old, old type of life. (break) . . . this place. I visited Switzerland, and I visited almost every hill station of the country, and almost practically entire world. But I find this place of a different solace. (break) . . . and second, it is very neat and clean. Prabhupāda: Maharashtrians are very neat and clean. Upper class, they are very. (break) . . . karmī. Mr. Malhotra: Good man. Prabhupāda: Good man from worldly point of view, but from spiritual point of view, in the lowest stage. Karmī is the lowest stage. Mr. Malhotra: Lowest stage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then jñānī , then yogī , then bhakta . Mr. Malhotra: More a politician. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmī means this how to enjoy this world. Whole life they have struggled how to enjoy this: "How to enjoy myself. How to allow my men to enjoy." This is karmī platform. Everyone is doing that. Everyone is working hard for himself, for his family, and expand the family, for society, and expand the society, for the nation. Here is karmī plan. Gandhi, Birla, they are all . . . there is no question of spiritual life. Mr. Malhotra: Now this is the Kṛṣṇā River. You just see how small it is, and how big it becomes later on. In the rainy season this road is closed because this all water comes up, you know. Now it is just a small rivulet. This is Kṛṣṇā River. And it comes just opposite our place, from where it starts, from the mountain. Here is the place called Haya. This was also one of the biggest Sanskrit University in the older time, like that of Taksashila. And Sarnath, near Sarnath, what is that place? Not Sarnath—there in Bihar, that place, that was also very big university, no? Prabhupāda: Oh, Taxsila. Mr. Malhotra: No Taxsila was in Punjab, that side. In Bengal, Bihar, that . . . Prabhupāda: Darbhanga. Mr. Malhotra: I visited that. So this was the seat of very old temples, oldest temples in this place, this Haya. And they say this is one of the oldest of the oldest towns or cities of the country. Small place, Taseer with a population of about 10–15,000 people. All the temples are in the Kṛṣṇā River, in the Kṛṣṇā River. (break) Whatever I am today, that is all due to my past karmas, good or bad, I mean. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: And whatever I am doing today, that I will have to reap the harvest in the future. Prabhupāda: You are creating the next position. Mr. Malhotra: So that means that I am bound by my past karmas. My destiny, my fate, is tied with the past karmas . So I have no other goal but to have the phala of past karmas . Or can I change my fate? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are enjoying the past karmas , and you are creating new karmas . Mr. Malhotra: But can I . . . then this means a circle that I'll always be. *Prabhupāda: Karma*-cakra . *Mr. Malhotra: Karma*-cakra . So how can one be out of this cakra? Prabhupāda: That cakra , you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And put all the karmas . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, He says: "You surrender. I square up all your karma ." Mr. Malhotra: Then only square up. Otherwise, no. Otherwise continue in this vicious circle. *Prabhupāda: Dharmasyāsya parantapa mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu*-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). Karma-cakra , this mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani , one after another, one body after another, one body after another, this will continue. If you don't come to Kṛṣṇa, then nivartante , mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani , you have to return again to that karma-cakra . Mr. Malhotra: The only way out is to surrender your . . .? Prabhupāda: To accept Kṛṣṇa that, "You are my Lord. I forgot it. I surrender. Kindly accept me." Indian man: How to surrender? Prabhupāda: Surrender, there are six items. Mr. Malhotra: Six items. Prabhupāda: Yes. That, "If I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection. I am one of His servants. And whatever He does, accept that." Mr. Malhotra: Good or bad. Prabhupāda: There is no bad. Everything is good. And first accept what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa, to reject what is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: And what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa? How one knows? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says. Do that. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Always think of Kṛṣṇa, become His devotee, offer obeisances. It doesn't require any extra endeavor, these things. Whatever you have got, you can do it. You can think of Kṛṣṇa without any impediment. Who can check it if you think of Kṛṣṇa? This is favorable. And what is unfavorable, that should be rejected. What is favorable, that should be accepted. And to believe firmly that "Now I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." (break) But dog has got a quality that he surrenders to his master. The master is a Vaiṣṇava, then dog gets the benefit. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya, mat para, mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mat para, mat para (BG 9.32). When the process is there, everyone can surrender, that "I shall act only what is favorable to get Kṛṣṇa's mercy." Yes. "And I shall not act any way which is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa." These first two determinations. And then, "Because I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." You believe in it. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). Believe in it. "Now I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. My all resultant actions of sinful life is finished. I will not come again." In this way. Indian man: If one surrenders, how to know that Kṛṣṇa has accepted? Prabhupāda: That you will understand. Just like if you eat, you will understand that you are eating. Nobody has to convince you. You will be convinced. Mr. Malhotra: The test of the pudding is by eating. Not by simply telling. Prabhupāda: When you eat, you haven't got to ask somebody else, "Do you think I am happy?" You'll feel yourself. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). If you are actually devotee, then you will be detestful to all material things. (break) . . . mouse of the mountain. (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: Yes, he was declared mouse of the mountain. (break) Prabhupāda: Yes. If you want material power, you must be worshiper of Durgā. Mr. Malhotra: And if you want spiritual . . .? Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. This Bālajī is Viṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: How then Viṣṇu, the incarnations, Kṛṣṇa, then Viṣṇu's incarnation . . . Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu is everything. If you want material power, you can get it from Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: Material power from Viṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Yes, Viṣṇu can give everything. Paramaṁ puruṣa is Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: Viṣṇu can give the power of bhakti also. Prabhupāda: Everything. Yes. Bhakti is . . . generally He gives bhakti . If you want something other than bhakti , you can get it. Mr. Malhotra: This is the center of M.R.A., Moral Rearmament. I phoned them for yesterday, so that Rajmohan Gandhi is away, not here. But the other people are here. We will visit this some time during the day. These days one conference is going on. There are 130 countries. Some conference. Devotee: There? Indian man: What is the subject? Mr. Malhotra: I don't know, remember. Prabhupāda: Oh, you may not know it, and this will do never any benefit. Mr. Malhotra: Now this is Panchgani, starts from here. Prabhupāda: Ah. Mr. Malhotra: . . . starts from here. (end) Prabhupāda: Because you cannot do like this. Kṛṣṇa says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya ( BG 7.7): "Nobody is superior than Me." That is Kṛṣṇa. Are you able to become superior of everyone? Mr. Malhotra: That is so, but how is that creator? His own creation went against and Kṛṣṇa became after His creation to worship and become devotees of superior . . . Prabhupāda: Isiliye, (That is why,) For this reason Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). One who knows what are the activities of Kṛṣṇa, he is liberated. So, So to understand Kṛṣṇa tattvataḥ , is not possible for ordinary person. Mr. Malhotra: Why this trying to understand Kṛṣṇa? Why not try to understand one's self? Kṛṣṇa passed five thousand years ago. Now ashes are there in our hands. Why not . . . Prabhupāda: That means you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is . . . why Kṛṣṇa? You are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. You are nitya , nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So you are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, you are nitya. Why do you say Kṛṣṇa existed five thousand years ago? He is existing always. Mr. Malhotra: Always existing there. Then the past is . . . (indistinct) . . . within you, within oneself. Prabhupāda: No, no. You are also nitya , but you are part and parcel of that nitya . Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God is nitya , you are also nitya ; God is also living, you are also living. What is the difference between the two? That one person, He is maintaining all of us. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . So this is knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. God is one. I am also individual. But we are many because we are all living entities. But God is one. We are controlled by God or God's nature. We are not one. Mr. Malhotra: Aren't we the images of God? Prabhupāda: Apart from images . . . that is another thing. That we shall describe later on. First of all you cannot claim that you are God, because you are under the control of material nature. Mr. Malhotra: You said part and parcel of God. Prabhupāda: Part and parcel, just like the finger is part and parcel of my body, but it is not the whole body. Mr. Malhotra: It is the body. Prabhupāda: It is body, you can say that, but part of it. Mr. Malhotra: Part of my body. All enjoined together, it makes the whole body. If it is separated . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. But still you say it is aṅguli (finger). It is not the body. Mr. Malhotra: Aṅguli . (laughs) It is one part, to say many. *Prabhupāda: No. You should be . . . should be senses. Just like this aṅguli , I am asking, "Do like this?" It is my servant. After all, it is part of the body, it is my servant. If it cannot serve my body, then it is diseased. Similarly we are part and parcel of God. If we cannot serve God, that is our diseased condition. The same example: This finger is part and parcel of my body. But I ask finger, "Please come here, to my nostrils." If it cannot do, then it is diseased. It is not in normal condition. So anyone who does not serve the whole, part and whole, he is diseased. He is not in normal condition. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇera dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Therefore because we have forgotten this relationship with God, declared ourself as God, that is diseased condition. Therefore God comes and He orders, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66): "Surrender unto Me. Don't talk nonsense." That is God. So when we agree, that is our perfection. Not to artificially become God, but to agree to serve God. That is liberation. Mr. Malhotra: So what if the drop submerges in the ocean, then the identity of drop vanishes. Prabhupāda: No. Mr. Malhotra: Drop, when drop submerges with the ocean . . . *Prabhupāda: I will give you practical example. Just like you take red water, colored water. So put into the sea, does it mean that sea becomes red? That little spot may be for the time being. Besides that, merging, this is the philosophy of the Māyāvādīs. Actually that is superficial. Just like a bird, green bird, enters into the green tree. You see that bird is vanished. Because the tree is green and the bird is green, you do not know the separate identification. But the bird is there, separate identification. It is not the bird has become zero. A aeroplane goes to the sky, after some time you don't find the aeroplane. That doesn't mean the aeroplane has no more identity, separate. It is separate. It is your defective eyes that you cannot see that it has got separate existence. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that, "I, you and all these kings who are assembled here, we existed in the past, we are now existing, and we shall exist in the future." That means individual existence will continue. He explains past, present and future. So where is imagination? Mr. Malhotra: No imagination. But paraṁ pada , that is nirvāṇa , or whatever . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, paraṁ pada is just like you fly in the sky, go very high. So from here we cannot see that you are separately existing. But you are separately existing. It is my deficient eyes that I see that you are not. Mr. Malhotra: Identification will remain always? *Prabhupāda: Always. Therefore it is said in the śāstra , āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ anādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ , ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninaḥ . . . (SB 10.2.32). It is said, "My Lord, the lotus-eyed, vimukta-mānina , if somebody artificially is thinking that he has become liberated or merged into the existence, āruhya kṛcchreṇa , for which he has undergone very severe tapasya ," āruhya kṛcchreṇa . . . kṛcchreṇa means with great difficulty. Paraṁ padam , brahma-jyotir , patanti adhaḥ , "again he falls down," anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ . . . just like these rascals that are going in the sky to find out a place in the Mars and in the moon. And why they are coming back? If actually one has gone, then why he's coming back? Mr. Malhotra: To tell to the others that they saw something. *Prabhupāda: That's it. Similarly, you will find the so*-called sannyāsīs—not bhaktas —they undergo severe austerities, penances, but after some time they come to the worldly atmosphere. Because they could not get any place, therefore they come down. Just like the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs they say that this duniyā (world), jagat mithyā . If jagat is mithyā , you have left it, then why you come again to give some philanthropic service? If it is mithyā , then why you come again after so much? Is it not nonsense? If jagat is mithyā why you are coming again to this mithyā ? *That means you could not get place in the satya . Therefore you come down again. That is stated in the śāstra. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam (SB 10.2.32). Although with severe austerities and penances might go to the paraṁ pada , patanty adhaḥ , anādṛta*-yuṣmad , because he could not get shelter at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, he falls down. He must fall down to the material activities. Patanty adhaḥ . That is adho patha . As soon as a person, after undergoing severe austerities, becomes very highly elevated in the sannyāsa stage, but if he cannot get shelter at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then surely he shall fall down for these material activities, material enjoyment. That is the sign that he's fallen down. Mr. Malhotra: Lord Kṛṣṇa we have to see in a personal way, have to see the entirety as the . . . Prabhupāda: Lord Kṛṣṇa is everything. Mr. Malhotra: Nirākāra . *Prabhupāda: Why nirākāra ? He says " aham ." Every sentence in the Bhagavad*-gītā , He says " aham ." So how He is nirākāra ? Just like you, you are a person. When you say "I, I can do this," that is a person. Mr. Malhotra: Because I have no other alternative but to communicate. I can communicate only "I" and "you." There is no other way. Prabhupāda: No other way, therefore you are deficient. You cannot claim that you are God. Because you have no other way. You are forced by something. So somebody is controller upon you. Therefore you are different from the God. As you say: "I have no other way," that means you are dependent something else. Mr. Malhotra: But God can communicate differently? *Prabhupāda: Therefore God and you are different. That is dvaita*-vāda . You are different . . . Mr. Malhotra: Why at all this started even? Why at all, say millions, trillions years back, how it started that God created this world? Then all are one and different. Prabhupāda: Who created? Mr. Malhotra: God. Prabhupāda: So God is there. So God . . . you are created or you are subordinate to God? You are also there. So nitya , you are also existing eternally, and God is also eternally existing. But the difference between you and God is that God is maintaining everything and you are being maintained. That is the difference. You are one of the items which is maintained by God. Mr. Malhotra: As long as I continue my identity that, "I am so and so. I am this body," or "I am a person, or ātmā , seated in this body, or dwelling in this body," when I dislodge my body from ātmā , then what is the position? *Prabhupāda: You are different from the body. You are different from the body. You are soul. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This body is temporary, you are eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You are nityaḥ śāśvata . You are never killed, even after the destruction of the body. That should . . . that is real understanding that, "I am not this body. After annihilation of this body, I shall continue." Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). You should know that you are eternal part and parcel of God. God is eternal. Just like gold and a small particle of gold, both of them are gold. A small particle of gold, it is also gold, but not equal to the gold mine. That is real understanding. And because you are little gold . . . Mr. Malhotra: But potentiality? Prabhupāda: Potential different, because a lump of gold and a small particle of gold, the value is not the same. Gold it is quality, but not the value the same. That you cannot say. *Mr. Malhotra: Quality*-wise it is gold, but . . . *Prabhupāda: But quantity it is different. God is all*-pervading. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is all-pervading. He is in everyone's heart. Can you live in everyone's heart? Can you know what I am thinking? Then how you can become God? Mr. Malhotra: Well there are . . . Prabhupāda: There are fools, rascals. There are others. (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: But there are certain people who say that . . . *Prabhupāda: No, who says, they are rascals. They are rascals. We take them as rascals, that's all. How you can say that you are all*-pervading? Can you say that? Even if you are very highly elevated, can you say what I am thinking? Then how do you claim God? God is all-pervading. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). You have read Bhagavad-gītā . There are two kṣetra-jñas . One kṣetra-jña , just like I am, you are. They are kṣetra-jña . I know about my pains and pleasures of my body. You know. But I do not know what is pains and pleasure of your body; *you do not know what is pains and pleasure of my body. Therefore there is difference. But God knows. That is the difference between you and God. How you claim "God"? You do not know what is the pains and pleasures of my body. You know the pains and pleasures of your body. I know the pains and pleasures of my body. But either you or me, we do not know the pains and pleasures of all bodies. And Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata . He knows everyone's pains and pleasure. That is the difference between you and Him. Mr. Malhotra: But this is all right. As long as I maintain my identity . . . Prabhupāda: You have to. If you foolishly think that you have become one, that is your foolishness. Yes. That is foolish thinking. Mr. Malhotra: What if I submerge myself with the entire . . . Prabhupāda: Merge means you do not disagree. That is merge. Do not disagree. Just like when Arjuna was disagreeing, that is his condition, that is his . . . Mr. Malhotra: Identity. Prabhupāda: . . . conditioned identity. And when he agreed, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73)," that is identity of oneness. Mr. Malhotra: Surrender. Prabhupāda: Surrender. That is oneness. Not that individually he has become different. Individually he is, but he does not disagree with Kṛṣṇa. That is oneness. Just like we are sitting, we are of different interests. But so far my disciples are, they will not disagree with me. That is oneness. But he is individual. He was individual, he is individual, and he will continue his individuality. But as soon as he accepts me as the leader, then he is agreement. That is oneness. Mr. Malhotra: Agreement with God is surrender. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). To serve Kṛṣṇa favorably, that is oneness. That is oneness. *Mr. Malhotra: This is bhakti*-yoga . Prabhupāda: Any yoga . You are individual; God is individual. That is already explained, I told you. God says, Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, "Me, yourself and all these people who have gathered, they are all individuals. They were individuals in the past, they are individuals now, and we shall continue to remain individuals in the future." Mr. Malhotra: Even if we surrender. Prabhupāda: Surrender means agreement, that's all. Mr. Malhotra: Agreement. Individuality will all along exist. Prabhupāda: Otherwise why is He asking, "You surrender," unless there is individuality? Why this request is there? Because you are individual, you can deny it. That individuality continues. But if you have love for God, then you agree, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73)." So that is wanted. Not that he lost his individuality. Individuality is there. Mr. Malhotra: Individuality remains. It seems so, that the individuality remains. *Prabhupāda: And this is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says. What Kṛṣṇa says, you have to accept. Otherwise, what is the use of reading Bhagavad*-gītā ? You cannot accept Bhagavad-gītā through your whims. That is nonsense. You must accept as it is. That is wanted. Mr. Malhotra: This Satya Sai Baba, he is also disciple of Kṛṣṇa. How he produces . . .? Prabhupāda: Then if he is disciple of Kṛṣṇa, he would not have foolishly said that he is Bhagavān. That means he is bogus. It is bogus . . . you cannot say . . . if you are disciple . . . just like they are my disciples. They will never say that they are equal to me. They will never say. Mr. Malhotra: No, no, but what power he has got to produce just now . . .? Prabhupāda: That anyone can do, magic, jugglery. It has no meaning. Mr. Malhotra: He got, you know, this money. Prabhupāda: Oh, he can get anything, but that is . . . magic. That is . . . magician also knows. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Professor Sarkar, a big magician, he kills . . . cuts people's body, then he joins them. Prabhupāda: So many things. Magic jugglery is . . . Mr. Malhotra: But there are some siddhis also. These siddhi , siddhis , some people. Prabhupāda: That is siddhi , magic also siddhi . You are successful businessman, that is also siddhi . That is also siddhi. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Even one is siddha , he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. That is said, yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Even one is siddha , still he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: He cannot understand . . .? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: But if he goes to āśrama , that where, and everybody sits there, the big Kṛṣṇa statue is there. In his room, personal room, Kṛṣṇa statue, and he has . . . Prabhupāda: If he is at all devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he will never say that he is Bhagavān. That is foolishness. That very assertion is foolishness. Mr. Malhotra: But Bhagavān, they don't call them Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: That they write in the books. They don't call, but write in the books. Hari-śauri: There was one article in the Blitz where it quoted him saying, "God is man, and man is God." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He said he is the incarnation for this age. Prabhupāda: And where is the evidence? Anyone can say: "I am incarnation." (laughter) Any rascal can say. Mr. Malhotra: Anyone can say. (laughing) *Prabhupāda: What is the proof? Just like this Ramakrishna, he was an illiterate priest, and at the time of his death he said to Vivekananda that, "I am Kṛṣṇa, I am Lord Rāma," and he accepted. He accepted. Ye sab chalta hai. hum bol diya hum bhi bhagvan hain aur hum maan liye, usko kya maloom. ek aadmi bola hum bahut amir aur phata kapda pehna hai hum usko maan le . . . (All this is going on. I say I am God and people will believe, what does he know. One man says I am very rich and wears torn clothes, can we believe him . . .) Let him create one motorcar. Why he's asking, "Please, sir, give me car"? That's all. He is such a great man—bogus. People are foolish persons, they are deviated by these bogus rascals. That is going on . . . sastra me jo hai wo nahi mante hain. Ṣaḍ*-aiśvarya-pūrṇam. bhagvan. Doosre se motor bheek mangta hai wo kaise bhagvan? Hum bolte hai hum bhagvan ka das, wo theek hai . . . (they don't follow what is given in the sastra . Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇam . Bhagavān. They beg from others for living how they can be Bhagavān? But we say we are servant of God, which is right . . .) Mr. Malhotra: Then he is servant, always servant? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nityānām , nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ . . . Servant sabi sochta hai hum kabhi malik ho jaye jo servant hai wo servant jaisa to hai koi malik ko sochne se aur doosre malik ke pas akarke usko pani lane do. (All the servants think, "When will I become the owner." The servant is like a servant, but when he considers himself an owner and orders another owner to get water for him.) Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Jeev ka ye swaroop hai. jo apne ko sochta hai mai bhagvan hoon. (The form of living entity is servant but he thinks "I am God".) That is his foolishness. And foolish person will accept. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Therefore He shall remain the Supreme always. We have to refer to the Vedic śāstras . Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate . This is description of Bhagavān, that He has nothing to do, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate . Uska magic deekha ki bhagvan thode ho jata hai, wo to bhagvan teen mahine ka hai. (If he shows magic he does not become God, that type of God is only for 3 months.) Either he is three months old or three years old or three hundred years old, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate , nobody can be equal or greater than Him. If someone is equal to Him, then how He is Bhagavān? Mr. Malhotra: How it can be that so many sages of the past, they proclaimed ahaṁ brahmāsmi . *Prabhupāda: Brahman. Brahman to hai hi, (You are Brahman,) because you are part and parcel of Parabrahman. That I have already told you, that gold, big gold and small particle, that is gold. Similarly, Bhagavān Parabrahman, and we are part and parcel of Him. Therefore I am Brahman. But I am not Parabrahman. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as Para*-brahman by Arjuna: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Para-brahman. So param , this word is used, Paramātmā, Parabrahman, Parameśvara. Why? That is the difference. One is supreme and one is subordinate. Subordinate Brahman. You are Brahman, there is no doubt of it. But not that Parabrahman. If you are Parabrahman, then why you are making sādhana to become Parabrahman? Why? If you are Parabrahman, then you are Parabrahman always. Why you have fallen in this condition that you have to perform sādhana to become Parabrahman? That is foolishness. You are not Parabrahman. You are Brahman. You are gold, a small particle. But you cannot say that "I am gold mine." That you cannot do. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So he is checking if it is time to go out . . . are you going to come with us also? Very good. Prabhupāda: Bring little water. These my disciples, they are part and parcel of me. Whole mission is going on with their cooperation. But if he says that, "I am equal to my Guru Mahārāja," then that is offense. Mr. Malhotra: Suppose guru desires that my disciple should rise higher than me. Prabhupāda: That means he is in lower stage. That you have to accept first of all. Mr. Malhotra: Like as a father sees that his children grow. Prabhupāda: Yes, still father begets father, and a child cannot become father. Mr. Malhotra: Father begets father, but he feels that he may . . . will progress . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Father may want to see that the son is equally qualified, but still the father is father, and child is child. That is perpetual. Similarly, a part and parcel of God may be very powerful, but that does not mean that he has become God. Mr. Malhotra: Other traditions, guru disciple, then the disciple becomes guru , then disciple. The gurus may change. Prabhupāda: They cannot change. If there are change of guru , the disciple acts. But does not . . . he'll never say that, "I have become equal or one with guru ." That is not so. Mr. Malhotra: I am thinking about this, Swāmījī, that your Guru Mahārāja is preaching through you, and you are preaching through them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: So disciple is guru through his disciples. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam (BG 4.2). But that does not become . . . he has become. He may be representative of guru , representative of God, but it does not mean that he has become God. Mr. Malhotra: But he becomes guru to his disciples. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Mr. Malhotra: Never equal to his guru . Prabhupāda: Not equal; representative. Not equal. I send one representative of this man, and he may be very expert, doing very good business, still he cannot be equal with me. He is acting as my representative, that's another thing. But not that he has become the original proprietor. Mr. Malhotra: But as your disciples, you are taken as guru . Prabhupāda: But they will never say that they have become equal with me, "I have advanced to be my guru ." Never say. Just like this boy, he is offering obeisances. He may be expert in preaching more than me, but he knows that, "I am subordinate." Otherwise, how he shall offer obeisances? He can think, "Oh, now I am so learned. I am so advanced. Why shall I accept him as superior?" No. That continues. Even after my death, after my disappearance, he will offer obeisances to my picture. Mr. Malhotra: But amongst his disciples he will be worshiped . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, but he remains a disciple of his guru . He will never say that, "Now I have become guru , so I don't care for my guru ." He will never say. Just like I am doing, but I am worshiping my guru still. So I remain subordinate to my guru , always. Even though I have become guru , still I am subordinate to my guru . Mr. Malhotra: But qualitatively . . . Prabhupāda: Qualitatively equal, I have already said. Not quantitatively. Mr. Malhotra: Qualitatively we are one. Quantitatively. Prabhupāda: Why? Do you think a grain of gold and a big gold lump is same? Mr. Malhotra: Gold, I think I am also gold. Prabhupāda: No, gold that is accepted, quality. That if you say . . . this is explanation—you must have brain to understand—that a small particle of gold and a big gold, they are gold in quality, but the big gold is millions of dollars and a small particle is few dollars. Just see. This is accepted. This Māyāvāda theory has made people atheists, that "I am God, I am equal to God." Very bad theory. Mr. Malhotra: From where these things also come? From where it comes? *Prabhupāda: From the Vedas . Vedas says, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate, Upaniṣads. Na tat*-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (CC Madhya 13.65, purport; Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8). *Mr. Malhotra: Who gives this asura*-buddhi ? From where this dirty, filth grows? *Prabhupāda: Asura*-buddhi and sura-buddhi , due to our little independence. Just like we are talking. So we do not agree; *therefore we are talking. So one of us may be asura and one may be sura . Therefore we do not agree. Otherwise, there is no use of talking. So that is natural. That is the conditioned stage. Because we are conditioned by the material nature, some of us are asuras and some of them are suras. Dvau bhūta*-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca (BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva , devatā , and asura . Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ smṛto daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ (Padma Purāṇa). Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are devatā , and just opposite number is asura . *Who does not recognize the authority of God, he is asura . He himself becomes God foolishly. That is not God. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ (BS 5.52). Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā . This, about the sun, description in the Brahma-saṁhitā. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ , unlimited potency, energy, heating energy. Such a powerful planet. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ . Still it is carrying out the order of somebody. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi : "I offer my obeisances to Govinda." But if I say I am equal to Govinda, I can stop sun, "Don't bother me by heating. Stop," will it become . . .? Then how I become all-powerful? Let me stop the activities of the sun. Or at night there is no sun, can I ask the sun, "Get up. I want light immediately"? Is it possible? Then how I become the God? Nobody cares for my order. Mr. Malhotra: They say those who know their Bhāgavata , they call themselves Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: That anyone can say, that "I know my Bhāgavata ." Nobody knows. I am Bhagavān but nobody cares for me. What kind of Bhagavān? It is rascal Bhagavān. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When Bhagavān has a toothache he goes to the dentist. Prabhupāda: Yes, when there's a toothache he goes to the doctor. These kind of nonsense has to be stopped. Otherwise people become atheists. "Anyone can become God, anyone can become Bhagavān." Mr. Malhotra: This Rajneesh, I tell you, he has . . . Prabhupāda: I don't say about Rajneesh because I have no acquaintance with him, but anyone says that he is Bhagavān, he can do anything. Mr. Malhotra: Somebody asked him, "Why you claim to be God, or Bhagavān?" He clarified that "It is not the creator or the equal Bhagavān. I know by . . . I have realized by . . ." Prabhupāda: But God says "I am the creator of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). This is Bhagavān. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can go, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. We will go to the car. (break) (in car) . . . to the sun planet, beginning is the sunshine. Mr. Malhotra: Yes, beginning is the sunshine. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, to go to the Absolute Truth, you begin with impersonal Brahman. Just as sunshine is impersonal, but everyone can see the sunshine is coming from the sun surface. Everyone knows that. Therefore the sunshine is not so important as the sun globe. Similarly brahma-tattva-nirviśeṣa , nirākāra-brahma is there, but more important than is the localized aspect. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61). God is all-pervading. The sunshine is all-pervading, and as Paramātmā He is also all-pervading. But if you can enter into the sun globe, you will meet with the sun-god. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā , imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke this philosophy to the sun-god." So there is sun-god. Sun-god and the sun globe and the sunshine, they are one, but different stages of understanding. Similarly, Brahman understanding, Paramātmā understanding, then the Supreme Personality of Godhead understanding. Advaya-jñāna. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). But if you stop simply in the sunshine, that means you have no knowledge of the sun*-god or the sun globe. If you have simply knowledge of the sun globe, then you are not aware of what is the sun-god. But if you know sun-god, then you know what is sun globe and the sunshine. That is wanted. That is perfect knowledge. *Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). When, after many many births, when one is actually in knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, understanding that Kṛṣṇa is everything, that mahātmā is sudurlabha , very rare. Somebody knows only impersonal Brahman, the jñānīs . Somebody knows the Paramātmā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe (BG 18.61). And one who knows Kṛṣṇa, he is perfect. (break) . . . this stage of understanding Kṛṣṇa, your knowledge is imperfect. (break) . . . śāstras , but unfortunately we do not refer to the authority of the śāstras . We manufacture our own way. Mr. Malhotra: No, actually what has happened is that there has been too many interpretations. Prabhupāda: There cannot be interpretations. Mr. Malhotra: No, there are certain people . . . Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Mr. Malhotra: That is what I said, huh. So there are so many interpretations that you get confused. Because of the same thing, some interpret, say, a different way. *Prabhupāda: One thing is that you have to become intelligent. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Now why I shall accept interpretation on these plain words? That is my foolishness. If somebody says, " dharma-kṣetra means this body and Pāṇḍava means the five senses," why this nonsense interpretation? If you are not intelligent, then you will accept such rascals interpreting unnecessarily. Interpretation is required when things are not very clear. But when the things are clear, why you should accept interpretation? That is my foolishness. There is no need of interpretation. (break) . . . is it still there? Why, if the rascal interprets, "Kurukṣetra means this body," why shall I accept it? Kurukṣetra is still there. There is no difficulty to understand. And if somebody interprets . . . (break) . . . interpretation, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that as soon as you interpret, the whole thing is lost. So why shall I be so foolish, I shall accept something which is lost? Mr. Malhotra: No. Rather, Kṛṣṇa had His own interpretation. Prabhupāda: That may be, but why shall I accept? Mr. Malhotra: . . . had His own interpretation rather. All the people who share . . . *Prabhupāda: You have, interpretation, you have to refer to the Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā says as soon as you accept interpretation, it is lost. Mr. Malhotra: Then the meaning is lost. Prabhupāda: Bās . So under the circumstances . . . that means I am also foolish. Any rascal gives any interpretation—I accept. That is my foolishness. So why should I become foolish? Radhakrishnan may be very big man, but if he does something wrong, he will be hanged. *Mr. Malhotra: No, he . . . ślokas are there. All the Bhagavad*-gītā ślokas are there. Prabhupāda: But I must have intelligence that why this rascal is interpreting in a different way. Mr. Malhotra: And Sanskrit is the language. So it has got the same . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not very difficult. Just like in the Ninth Chapter, Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). And Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Why? Kṛṣṇa says, "Just think of Me— man-manāḥ —just become My devotee, and just offer Me obeisances, worship Me." It is plain language. And if some rascal says: "No, no, it is not to Kṛṣṇa," why shall I accept it? Mr. Malhotra: It is not the personified Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: You have read it? Mr. Malhotra: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, you see. I shall immediately detect that here is a rascal. Because Kṛṣṇa says personally, and he says it is not to the person. Just see. Mr. Malhotra: But Kṛṣṇa had been on this earth in flesh and bones. *Prabhupāda: That is history, Mahābhārata . And all the ācāryas , they have accepted—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka. Svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me (BG 10.13). Arjuna accepts Him, Para*-brahman. You are Para-brahman. Not that "Because I am Your friend and I am accepting You as Para-brahman," but all the ācāryas , they have accepted. (break) . . . mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam . "Because I am talking with you as a human being, only rascals, they think I am human being." If you think Kṛṣṇa as having flesh and bone, then you become a rascal, immediately. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam , paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11): "I am not made of this bone and flesh. I am cinmaya , I am fully spirit soul." So one who does not know it, he is a rascal. So as soon as you will say that He is made of bone and flesh, that means you are rascal. (laughter) Why shall I hear you? Mr. Malhotra: When Lord Kṛṣṇa came into being, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: That does not mean that . . . suppose I am here. I am driving with you. But there is difference between you and me. So Kṛṣṇa comes as human being, that does not mean He is human being. Why don't you understand this? Mr. Malhotra: That is okay. But from the normal, you know . . . Prabhupāda: That is your study. That is foolish study. Therefore He says avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11): "The rascals think that I am one of the human being." If he is one of the human being, how he can say, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). In the human society, there are big men, you are big man, I am small man, he is still more, he is still more, he is still bigger. There are so many varieties. But He says: "No more superior than Me." And that is God. Mr. Malhotra: No one is supreme than Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: That He says, of course. Prabhupāda: He says everything, but because we are foolish we do not hear Him. That is the difficulty. Mr. Malhotra: We don't understand Him. Prabhupāda: No, we understand. But we do not accept it. Mr. Malhotra: We don't accept it. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty to understand? God is superior. Everyone knows it. But I will not accept, he will not accept. Unless one is superior, how He can be God? (break) . . . sevayā . Therefore you have to find out somebody who knows Him. Otherwise you will be in darkness. (break) *Mr. Malhotra: (indistinct Hindi) . . . over bridge. But where we are going, Ambleshwar, from there Kṛṣṇā*-nadī starts. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Kṛṣṇā*-nadī is for us. Mr. Malhotra: From Ambleshwar. Then there is old, old mandir, very old mandir, temple, there are five, they say, five nadīs are coming. Prabhupāda: Oh, Kaumuda, Kāverī . . . Mr. Malhotra: Kṛṣṇā, Kāverī, Veṇā . . . five rivers, they say, they flow from there. We will go there. Tomorrow morning we'll go there. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . just now. In the morning it was little cold. Now it is very pleasing. Mr. Malhotra: It is. But since you have been going all over the Europe and Am . . . you must be accustomed to cold. It is severe cold. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I was going to morning walk when there was snowfall. I was walking on snow. Mr. Malhotra: Actually when snow falls it is not very cold, but when there is breeze, then it is very unbearable. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. (break) Mr. Malhotra: . . . the first month, I think, except April and May. All the rest months. Prabhupāda: All the year. Mr. Malhotra: May is quite hot, and April . . . Prabhupāda: Beginning. Mr. Malhotra: Not beginning. Middle of April to May and June. Then in June rain starts. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . legislation that fifty percent of revenues was spent in military. Bhaya*-vitta . (break) Mr. Malhotra: Tad guru vijñāta . . . Prabhupāda: Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). *Mr. Malhotra: Guru*-vijñāna . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: No. This is Vedic injunction. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Abhigacchet , this word is used. This means "must," vidhi*-liṅ . This is the form of vidhi-liṅ , in grammar. Vidhi-liṅ is applied when there is no question of duality. You must. If you want to know that transcendental science, you must approach guru . Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham . And who is guru ? Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam. Śrotriyam means one who is guru by hearing from his guru , śrotriyam . This is paramparā . Not that all of a sudden he becomes guru . No. That is not guru . Guru means śrotriyam. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). And after hearing perfectly from his guru , he is brahma-niṣṭham . Just like Arjuna, after hearing from Kṛṣṇa, his guru , he became devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Not became, he was devotee. Still he became perfect devotee. Brahma-niṣṭham . This is the guru's qualification. *And in another, the Bhāgavata it is said, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). One must surrender to guru who is actually inquisitive, yes, about the Absolute Truth. What kind of inquisitive? Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam : the best aim of life or transcendental aim of life. He requires guru . Then what is guru' s qualification? The next line is that tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam, śābde pare ca niṣṇātam (SB 11.3.21). Guru is completely in awareness of all the Vedic knowledge. That is guru . Not a loafer class. (laughter) Śrotriyam . One who has heard perfectly Vedas from his guru . And what is the symptom that he has heard from the authority of the . . .? Brahma*-niṣṭham. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . The symptom is that he has completely taken shelter of the Supreme Brahman, rejecting or finishing all material desires. No more material desires. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . He has taken shelter of Brahman, upaśama , rejecting—no more hankering after anything material. Mr. Malhotra: No more hankering. But he has to eat. He has to eat, he has to clothe. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not hankering. That is not hankering. Mr. Malhotra: The minimum needs of the body. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so long the body is there. That is wanted. Just like about the Gosvāmīs it is said, nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . One has to conquer over sleeping, eating, sex and fearing. A saintly person has no fearing, because he depends on Kṛṣṇa. But these things particularly conquered over. Simply little eating, that's all. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi . At least trying to conquer over sleeping, eating and sex. Mr. Malhotra: Sleeping, eating and . . . Prabhupāda: Sex life. (break) Mr. Malhotra: . . . sleeping at all, or some little sleep? Prabhupāda: Practically no sleeping. Practically no eating and no sex life. Mr. Malhotra: Sleeping means actual sleeping or awareness, I mean awakening of the mind or awakening . . . Prabhupāda: No, actual sleeping. Sleeping means waste of time. So long you sleep, it is a waste of time. Better reduce sleep. Mr. Malhotra: But you have to sleep sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes, some, some. Mr. Malhotra: Some part of the day or part of the . . . Prabhupāda: That also you will find, those who are highly elevated, they can avoid. Mr. Malhotra: They can completely avoid sleeping? Hundred percent? Prabhupāda: No. They can, but they do not show like that. (laughter) Otherwise, artificially one would like to imitate it. Mr. Malhotra: But in the medical theory they are saying so much insomnia. Prabhupāda: No insomnia, he becomes mad. (laughter) That is another thing. That is disease. Hari-śauri: One of my parents' friends, she hadn't been to sleep for seven months because of a nervous condition when she was going crazy. I saw that. Mr. Malhotra: There must be sleeping pills. Prabhupāda: Yes, in Western countries, tranquilizer. Mr. Malhotra: I was in America, you know. So in New York I stayed in one hotel, and every evening, that bellboy, he was keeping two tablets for each of us in the room. Actually, I don't know what type of tablets they have done. We have slept thoroughly. In the morning he came to make the bedding. So he said, "Sir, you have not taken these tablets?" I said: "What are these tablets?" "Sleeping pills." I said, "No, I don't take it." "And you could sleep?" I said: "Yes." Then he said: "Can I have these?" "Yes, yes, you can have by all means." (laughter) So he took away all the pills for his own use. So I mean most of the people, they can't sleep without these sleeping pills. Their mind is so agitated and so disturbed. This material . . . *Prabhupāda: Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyām , in the śāstra it is said: "In the material world everyone is always full of anxiety." Full of anxiety. Mr. Malhotra: The more you're engrossed in material things, the more anxiety you are in. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained. Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because he has accepted something which is asat—asat means which will not endure, such things—on account of this, he is always full of anxieties. Asat , this body is asat . Asad-grahāt . Because we have accepted this material body, we must be always full of anxieties. Asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). Although this body is temporary, still, so long the body is there, he will suffer. Kleśada . Kleśada means always giving trouble—this trouble, that trouble, this trouble, that trouble. Mr. Malhotra: This road straight leads to Bangalore, Madras. This road goes to south, entire south. You can go by this road only to Kanyakumari. Prabhupāda: Oh! Mr. Malhotra: Yes, Cape Comorin, right up to Calicut. Prabhupāda: And all the tīrthas are on the four sides. Very good road? Mr. Malhotra: Last year in the month of December I went to Rāmeśvaram. Prabhupāda: On this road? Mr. Malhotra: On this road. Of course, I went by air to Bangalore, and from there we went by car. But this road goes straight. (break) . . . by car, to Calcutta by air, then from there to that Bhubaneshwar by train, and then from there by car, like that. (break) It is very small place, Dvārakā. It is very small place, and in that leak was, an entire area was destroyed completely. Even communications could not be restored for three months. But Dvārakā itself was untouched completely. But on the way we found, because we went by car from here, we found roads, everything was destroyed completely. You could see demolished, the tops of houses gone away in the cyclone. Prabhupāda: Maharashtra Province is rich? I don't think so. Mr. Malhotra: It is like this, that Maharashtra is industrially quite stable. But that only Bombay and one, two cities. The rest of the Maharashtra is poor. There is not much cultivation. Prabhupāda: But industry, it belongs to the other persons, not to the Maharashtrians. Mr. Malhotra: Hmm? Prabhupāda: All these Bombay industries, they belong to the outsiders. *Mr. Malhotra: Outsiders. Now in Punjab, for instance, now they have created sufficient wheat to cater the entire country. That is four*-fifths of the total need of the country of wheat is supplied by Punjab. Prabhupāda: But it is always. Mr. Malhotra: Punjab and Haryana, now they are two, but both together. Prabhupāda: Punjab is the best province in India. Mr. Malhotra: You know we came and settled in Poona after partition of the country. Previously we were in Rawalpindi. (to the driver) Kya kar rahe ho bhai? (What are you doing brother?) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . on my way to Kashmir. Mr. Malhotra: Yes, because at Rawalpindi you could get taxi, then buses. After Rawalpindi you have to go by train. Then from there you could get car, taxi, and in those days there were yakas also. You know. Tongas. Tongas or buses. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . young age when I was twenty*-five years. (break) . . . via Jammu. Mr. Malhotra: Jammu, Jammu and Kashmir. Prabhupāda: Yes. And I came back via Rawalpindi. Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā , you came back via Rawalpindi. (break) You have, I mean, thought of spiritual bending, or spiritual . . . *Prabhupāda: No, we are trained up, because we belong to Kṛṣṇa family. So Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship is our family tradition. Our forefathers, my father, my maternal uncles, we are Vaiṣṇava family, belonging to the Caitanya- sampradāya . Mr. Malhotra: But how you entered in business, I mean. Prabhupāda: Because we were trained up from the very beginning of our life by our father, mother. Mr. Malhotra: Grandfather also? *Prabhupāda: Yes, our whole family. We have our family Deity, Dāmodara. In my childhood I was worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities. And then, fortunately, I got my Guru Mahārāja, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. So this was a good fortune, from the very beginning we were trained up. So in the beginning of our life, I was worshiping Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and playing with Ratha-yātrā. The same thing is being done now, in a larger scale. (laughter) Nitya yukta upāsate . There is no change. *Mr. Malhotra: People must be very curious in California when this Ratha*-yātrā, Jagannātha. They must be very curious. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But they enjoy very much. They enjoy very much. Those who are even not my students, they also come to me, "Thank you, Prabhupāda. Thank you, Prabhupāda." They say like that. They enjoy very much, dance like anything, when the Ratha*-yātrā goes. They say: "It is life." They are dancing. "This is life. We do not know what is happening, but we are dancing." They say like that. Mr. Malhotra: Dancing, this ballroom dancing? *Prabhupāda: No, around the road, Hare Kṛṣṇa dancing. (laughter) There is no need of ballroom. They become mad, dancing. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana*-gāna-nartana-parau . That is ecstasy. So when the ecstasy is there, they understand this is life. (break) Mr. Malhotra: Mr. Biyani, Biyani. He is just Birla's tea company chairman looking after tea. Last time I was in Delhi about two months back, so I just talked about you that I had to meet you and we could go to Vṛndāvana. Because at that time I was told that you were there. So he knew you very well; he had been to your discourses, Mr. Biyani. He's Marwari. They are in Calcutta, that tea business, export tea business. We agreed on one this thing, that it is very easy, rather, to make Indians understand the spiritual teachings of Lord Kṛṣṇa, because in homes, in houses, forefathers, grandmothers, mothers, they are doing, I mean, always. But to, I mean, impart this knowledge to the . . . Prabhupāda: Foreigners. Mr. Malhotra: Foreigners, and that to who have more or less completely, I mean, very much away from the spiritual life, very much engrossed in material life, very much engrossed. And it was something very, very, very difficult, right? Without the blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Therefore their fathers are charging me that "This man knows something, mesmerism." (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: Their fathers are charging with that this man knows some mesmerism. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Brainwash. Mr. Malhotra: Brainwash, ācchā. How you entered in their hearts? Prabhupāda: Mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Mr. Malhotra: Hare Kṛṣṇa mesmerism. That is also mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . *Prabhupāda: Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). This is the process of cleansing the heart. So if it is done properly, everyone becomes cleansed of all dirty things. Naturally he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. Mr. Malhotra: I was rather very much surprised when I first met, Prabhupāda, about four or five devotees on the streets of this Honolulu, Honolulu first. Because I went from this side, Japan, Hong Kong, Thailand, and then entered in America through Honolulu, Hawaii. So when I went I was just in the morning, I was trying to get the tourist bus for moving in the whole city to see. And then on the main road, you know that main road . . . have you been to Honolulu? Prabhupāda: No. He has gone. Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā . You have been to Honolulu? Hari-śauri: Yeah. Mr. Malhotra: Five devotees were having drums, this khol , they were dancing like, I mean, in their own mood, you know. So then I had a curiosity. I just stopped one of them and I said: "Well, mister, I would like to know about all this." He said, "Yes, you come to our temple in the morning and we'll tell you all about it." But I said that, "What you are doing?" "We are playing kīrtana ." I said, "Well, why you are out on the streets?" "Because these all demons. These are all demons, you know." Prabhupāda: Demons. Mr. Malhotra: ". . . demons, you know. So those who do not have any spiritual knowledge, so we want to penetrate in their ears, and through their ears in their hearts, the name of Kṛṣṇa. So that even if they don't like it, well, the Kṛṣṇa name should enter in their hearts." Prabhupāda: That is . . . this mantra . . . Mr. Malhotra: "So that is what we are doing. So even if they don't like it we are doing. So whosoever is passing by, he will have at least his ears will be accustomed to hear the name of Lord Kṛṣṇa." I said: "But in *Gītā* it is said that those who do not wish to know the true knowledge, well, it is forbidden for the devotees or for the followers to tell them anything about spiritual knowledge." "So that, sir, we are not giving, imparting knowledge to each individual by catching them. We are just playing ourselves. So whosoever likes it, he can stand by us. Otherwise we are not . . ." So they replied also correctly to this also. Prabhupāda: Yes, and Kṛṣṇa says . . . Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā , then I said: "What is this?" "This is śikhā ." I said: "Well what it is meant for?" So he said: "Well, this is the . . ." What he told me was this exactly, that the aerial of knowledge. He said that this is the aerial of knowledge. I said: "Is it your own interpretation?" "No, but I think that I feel that way. This is the aerial of knowledge." (break) . . . that, "You come have prasādam in the morning." So next day we had to leave actually. So we were in the morning busy going to airport. Then I met in this New York. Then when I came to Europe, then I was sitting in one restaurant in London, and then a big group of about 15, 18, 20 devotees, they were having a good chanting, and they were . . . Prabhupāda: Our men regularly go on the Oxford St. Mr. Malhotra: Yes, Oxford. On that street only there was Indian restaurant where this rasagullās and tea and all that is available. So we were sitting having our this thing, and then they passed. Prabhupāda: Our men, they can prepare rasagullā , samosā , kachorī . Mr. Malhotra: Now this Bombay center, when I visited, Girirāja he showed me, and the restaurant, that vegetarian restaurant which will be coming up, that is good. (break) . . . I mean is it regular new films are being made, or only one or two films have been made so far? Girirāja: We make more films. Hari-śauri: There's another one just coming up now which explains the philosophy in more detail. The films were to show general activities, that was The Hare Kṛṣṇa People. The new film was to show the farming scheme that Prabhupāda set up in New Vrindavan, and many other farms we have now. And there was one other film to show how the books are produced and then delivered to the public. So gradually more and more are coming out. Mr. Malhotra: You know one thing I have found that there is spotless cleanliness, you know, in the centers. Whereas in our temples here in India, even when we go to say Hardwar and Rishikesh and all these, the temples, the outer cleanliness, not proper emphasis is given by the management. Prabhupāda: I stress on this cleanliness very much. If they keep unclean, I chastise them like anything. (laughing) They have learned this art. I always say, "Cleanliness is next to godliness." *Mr. Malhotra: About two years back, two, three of your devotees came to our house here. Naturally we offered them, "Would you like to have coffee, tea?" They said: "No." Then we said: "Would you like to have Coca*-cola?" They said, "No." Then I said: "What would you like to have? Milk?" "Yes." Lassi , chach ? "Yes." Fruit. "Yes." It happened so that Girirāja came to us twice, and twice it was this ekādaśī . Now ekādaśī day they are not supposed to eat this wheat or flour or anything. So when last we came to Mahabaleshwar, so we brought some paraṭās with this gobi in it. Prabhupāda: Ekādaśī . Mr. Malhotra: We didn't know about ekādaśī . When we came to Mahabaleshwar, we opened. They said: "No, we can't eat because it is ekādaśī ." So we thought that, "No, you won't eat, so it looks odd that we should eat." But we were very hungry, you know. In the morning we didn't take anything. We said: "All right, we eat, now we will go to the bazaar and see if we could get something." Then we went to Mahabaleshwar, it was all closed, because it was raining season. And then there was one shop which had bananas, you know, good amount of bananas. So we took one dozen or two dozen bananas, and then . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: Banana is very good. You can make banana and potato. Potato boil and mixed with banana, and make nice purī . And then . . . *Mr. Malhotra: How Girirāja, I just ask you, how you sort of took to all these good things, I would say, of life? I mean in natural form, or with some self*-discipline, or with some coercion, or with some what? Girirāja: It was Prabhupāda's mercy. I was looking for a guru . Actually, whenever I heard there was a svāmī or a yogī , I would always go, even hundreds of miles. But I was never satisfied. But Śrīla Prabhupāda perfectly satisfied all of my questions. And I liked the process—chanting, dancing, taking prasādam , offering ārati —and I liked the devotees. It was very pleasing. So I immediately decided this is my real life. Mr. Malhotra: No, but not taking any wheat, like on ekādaśī day, all such things, I mean. Girirāja: That's training. Once we surrender to the spiritual master, then he trains us in the process of spiritual life. *Prabhupāda: Sādhu*-mārgānugamanam. Ādau gurvāśrayaṁ sad-dharma-pṛcchāt sādhu-mārgānugamanam . These are the process. *Mr. Malhotra: Sādhu*-mārga . *Prabhupāda: Sādhu*-mārga . Girirāja: We study the śāstras every morning and evening in all of our centers, so we become educated. (break) Prabhupāda: Four places: Hardwar, Prayāga, Vṛndāvana . . . Mr. Malhotra: But after every eleven years or . . .? Prabhupāda: No. It comes in rotation, every four years. *Mr. Malhotra: Every four years. So there are sort of ardha*-kumbhīs and then kumbha . *Prabhupāda: Yes. In Allahabad they actually hold every year, Māgha*-mela . *Mr. Malhotra: Māgha*-mela . But this is not every year, this time people are . . . Prabhupāda: It is very, I mean to say, atmosphere becomes surcharged. Great spiritual advancement. Very nice. Mr. Malhotra: Abhi 15 tarik ko wahan par kuch hai kuch, aap ja rahe hain, kab jayenge? (On 15th there is some event happening there. Are you going? When are you going?) Prabhupāda:': ' Jayenge 15 tarik tak. aap aaiye. (Yes I will go around 15th.) Prabhupāda: Iran is like that, but no green, simply sand. Mr. Malhotra: They are the mountains of Deccan. They say that these all mountains were under sea. *Prabhupāda: Yes, everything was . . . pralaya*-payodhi-jale dhṛtavān asi vedam . (break) *Mr. Malhotra: Swamiji yahan par bhi south me bade ache*-ache mandir hain. (Swamiji, here also in the South there are very good temples.) (break) . . . for quite some time at a particular spot. This spot was shown to us. And people have very great reverence for that spot. So now, at one time we accept Lord Rāma the supreme master of a particular yuga , and then He had to worship Lord Śiva. So who is, I mean, supreme? Lord Śiva or Lord Rāma? Prabhupāda: Lord Rāma is the Lord. Śiva is devotee. Sometimes you wash the feet of your son. That does not mean you are a servant Mr. Malhotra: Sometime . . .? Prabhupāda: You wash the feet of your son. But that does not mean you are a servant of the son. Kṛṣṇa . . . why Rāma? Kṛṣṇa, when Sudāmā Vipra came to His house, He washed his feet. Mr. Malhotra: Sab bhakton ke bhagat. (The supreme of all the devotees.) *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa immediately got down from His siṁhāsana and took his lotus . . . touch his feet. And Nārada Muni was smiling. Nara*-līlā. Mr. Malhotra: Nārada Muni was smiling. Ye bhagvan kya kar rahe hain? (What is God doing?) Prabhupāda: Nārada Muni knew it that He is the Supreme Lord, but he did not check it. Mr. Malhotra: He let Lord Kṛṣṇa bow. This is the biggest paradox. *Prabhupāda: Mad*-bhakta-pūjābhyadhika (SB 11.19.21). Kṛṣṇa is pleased when His devotee is worshiped. Kṛṣṇa kabhi-kabhi radharani ka payr choota hai. (Kṛṣṇa sometimes touches the feet of Radharani.) Mr. Malhotra: Now I went to Dvārakā Purī, so there is Bheda Dvārakā in the sea. One is Dvārakā Purī, then about, I think, ten, twelve miles away there is Bheda Dvārakā. At Bheda Dvārakā, that is the residential palace of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and seven rāṇīs of Lord Kṛṣṇa. They show each building, their whole building. So what was that? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa had 16,108 queens. Mr. Malhotra: 16,108 queens. 16,108. But there they show only, I think, 8 or 7. Prabhupāda: All are described, that He had 16,000 palaces. And Nārada Muni came to see Him, what He is doing actually. He saw different activities, and Kṛṣṇa expanded Himself to 16,108. Each rāṇī had ten sons, Mr. Malhotra: Each rāṇī had ten sons. *Prabhupāda: And they had sons also. In this way the Yadu*-vaṁśa was crores. Mr. Malhotra: There was one story that Lord Kṛṣṇa was going on rath (chariot), and then He had to be at the place of horse of the rath because of some śhrap (curse) of some muni. That is given there.Idhar bhuma do. (Turn around here.) (break) So we get frustrated. But where the first apple came? Where the very seed of first apple planted on this earth planet? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bījo 'haṁ sarva*-bhūtānām (BG 7.10). Kṛṣṇa answered this question. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām : "I am the original seed of everything." Mr. Malhotra: Otherwise, it is very difficult, that wherefrom the very first seed came. Prabhupāda: And He says another place: *Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). Everything is answered in Bhagavad*-gītā . (break) There is river, there is fountain . . . Mr. Malhotra: River, fountain . . . (indistinct) . . . volumes. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . written by D. L. Raya. Dhana dhanyo puspa bhara amader ei vasundhārā . . . (indistinct) . . . hari hari āche. Tāhar majhe āche deśe eka sakala deśe sera . "Out of all these countries, there is a first*-class country, and that is my country, India." Dhana dhanyo puspa bhara amader ei vasundhārā , Tāhar majhe āche deśe eka sakala deśe sera . So the India is sakala deśe sera , the best of all other countries. Indian man: best of all countries. Aisa kyon hai, Indai ko hi shreya mile sara. (Why is it that India gets all the credit?) All saints . . . *Prabhupāda: No, actually, India is the best country. There is no doubt. Even these boys, they say India is the best. Puṇya*-bhūmi . Religion agar study karna hai to India. sab communist ko sikhate hain (If you want to study religion then go to India. They teach all the communists) that "If you want to study religion, then go to India." These boys of Western countries, they come to India not to learn the so-called science. They have enough in their country. They do not come here how to manufacture aeroplane. Mr. Malhotra: For technology we have to go there. Prabhupāda: There is no need. Indian man: No need. Prabhupāda: It is simply bogus. The first thing you require . . . you have got this body. You have to eat something and you have to dress yourself. You can get from this land. Keep some cows, grow your agricultural product, and sow cotton, then all economic problem is solved. And save time and understand what is your relationship with God. That is India. This is Vedic civilization. Mr. Malhotra: This era happened in the past similar. Prabhupāda: India is based on this principle. Mr. Malhotra: In every era demons and good people must be. Prabhupāda: That is there. Mr. Malhotra: Always must be there. The ratio may be different. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: Bad and good, mātra may be different. Prabhupāda: But India is especially meant for understanding God. That is India's . . . just like this place, such a nice place, automatically you'll remember God. Mr. Malhotra: You will like this place, this Panchgani, where we are going now. A wonderful peaceful place, very peaceful. The atmosphere . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . live peacefully, save time, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is my mission. Mr. Malhotra: The requirement of every human being is . . . Prabhupāda: Very simple. Mr. Malhotra: Very simple. But all these, you know, these added, added, added . . . Prabhupāda: That is asuric. Yes. To increase artificially necessities of life. And become entangled. *These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life. The aim of life is to go back home, back to Godhead. That they do not know. They are trying to adjust things by material arrangement. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā . This hope will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . This material energy is the external energy of the Lord. So they are enamored by the external energy; *they have no information of the internal energy, svarūpa-śakti . Just like every one of us in the conditioned state, we are busy with this body, the external energy. And the internal energy, the soul, is there. We have no information. Although we practically daily see that as soon as the internal energy is off, it is nothing but as good as the stone. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ . They are giving importance to this external energy. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And they are being encouraged by the so-called leaders to give stress on this external energy, although they are tightly tied with the laws of nature. The laws of nature will finish this body. But still they are attached to this body. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ . I had been to that Gandhi's place. Mr. Malhotra: Gandhi's place, Wardha. Prabhupāda: Wardha. And I saw his cottage and everything. So I said this is the . . . after all, he wanted to live very simple life in a cottage. Why he declared war against the Britishers? What was the necessity? Boliye hamara question theek hai ki nahi to unko . . . me hi rehna hai. (Tell me if my question is correct or not, so they must stay in the . . .) Britishers would never tackled you or objected. The villagers were using. Why so much energy was engaged, to drive away the Britishers? Mr. Malhotra: No, he wanted the country to be free from the foreign rule. Prabhupāda: No, now what freedom we have got? (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: That is a different thing. *Prabhupāda: But that means . . . we do not get such information from Bhagavad*-gītā , that "Make your country free." Why he took Bhagavad-gītā and did this business, mislead people? He took Bhagavad-gītā and he was busy declaring war. Because politically, sometimes required. But the thing is that if your ideal is to live very simple life . . . his, I mean to say, followers, Jawaharlal Nehru, he did not take up this. Mr. Malhotra: He used to stay in bhangi colonies, Gandhi. Hmm? *Prabhupāda: So, and he was killed in the bhangi colony. No, he was killed in the Birla's place. And there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. Although he was thinking, "This is my life, Bhagavad*-gītā "—without Kṛṣṇa. What is this? *Mr. Malhotra: Bhagavad*-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? He never commented on Third Chapter. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Any chapter. The beginning is bhagavān uvāca . Now how he can describe Bhagavān? This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). *Mr. Malhotra: He used Bhagavad*-gītā for political purposes. *Prabhupāda: That is, political purpose, you may. But even politically, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7): "Fight. But always remember Me." That is politics. Kṛṣṇa never says that you forget and fight. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). This is Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa never says that, "You give up politics." Actually, the Battle of Kurukṣetra is politics. But still Kṛṣṇa is there. How you can discard Kṛṣṇa? Mr. Malhotra: Yes, Battle of Kurukṣetra was fought . . . Prabhupāda: Politics. Senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta. Senayor ubhayor madhye (BG 1.21): "Between the two soldiers, keep my chariot, my dear Acyuta." He is addressing Acyuta. Acyuta, Kṛṣṇa, agreed to become his chariot driver. Therefore he is purposefully using this word acyuta . "Because I know You are the Supreme Lord, and I am ordering You, but because You promised that You will carry my order, Acyuta, You never fail in Your work." So God's another name is Acyuta. God never falls down. This Māyāvādī theory that, "I am God, now I am fallen down," that is wrong theory. How God can fall down? If God falls down He is not God. Dog fall down, not the God. Mr. Malhotra: How can He be supreme if He can fall down? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Na māṁ karmāṇi limpanti na me karma*-phale spṛhā (BG 4.14): "I have nothing to do, and neither if anyway I act, the resultant action does not affect Me." But we are all karma-phala vatya . So how God and myself can be equal? Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa . There is daiva , there is superior arrangement. According to my karma I get a different type of body. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye (SB 3.31.1). Mr. Malhotra: But when I surrender my karmas to Almighty . . . *Prabhupāda: Then ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣ . . . (BG 18.66), then Kṛṣṇa takes care of you. Mr. Malhotra: Then those karmas don't affect . . .? *Prabhupāda: No. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (BS 5.54). Those who are bhaktas , their karmas are finished. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi . Devotee is not under karma-phala . Hmm? *Mr. Malhotra: Devotee is not under karma*-phala . Prabhupāda: He is Brahman, immediately. Liberated soul. Without being liberated, nobody can be engaged in devotional service. (break) Mr. Malhotra: Then if one understands ahaṁ brahmāsmi . . . Prabhupāda: No, simply does not understand ahaṁ brahmāsmi , but he engages himself in devotional service. That is not the end. Simply by understanding that "I am this," that is not sufficient. "I am this, and this is my duty." Mr. Malhotra: "I am this, and this is my duty." Then that is what is . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is liberation. *That is perfection of brahma*-jñāna . Mr. Malhotra: But in the final analysis, at . . . Prabhupāda: Final analysis is devotional service. Mr. Malhotra: The paraṁ pada . They even advocate, means Lord Kṛṣṇa advocates, that all icchā , every type of icchā , icchā of even mukti . . . *Prabhupāda: That is negation. Just like you become freed from fever. So the symptoms of fever finished. But your healthy life begins. And after submission of the fever, still you lie down, that is not cured. Cure will be recognized when you work in your healthy state. That is bhakti . After becoming brahma*-bhūya , the activities should be devotional service. Then it is healthy life, liberated life. Mr. Malhotra: Without any ākāṅkṣā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Ākāṅkṣā is also there. That ākāṅkṣā is different. That ākāṅkṣā , how to please Kṛṣṇa, that ākāṅkṣā . In the material stage, the ākāṅkṣā is how to please my senses. In the liberated stage, how to please Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: By pleasing Lord, one does not please one's own ego also to some extent? Prabhupāda: It is just like if you put water on the root of the tree, so all the parts of the tree may become satisfied, automatically. Or if you put food in the stomach, all the parts of your body becomes satisfied—that is automatic. You don't require to make a separate endeavor. That is not required. Mr. Malhotra: Is there any difference between the ego of a person who is collecting money, or material things, all his life, or a person who is giving all the material things for the service of the humanity at large? Is there any difference between the two? *Prabhupāda: To give your fruits of . . . result of your fruitive activities, either you give to yourself or to your brothers and sisters, it is the same thing. Expanded. Just like a child eats, but when he is little grown up, he gives to his brother also. But the principle is the same. But when you give everything to God, that is liberated stage. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat kuruṣva tad mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27). Mr. Malhotra: Meaning? Prabhupāda: Meaning, "Whatever you do, you give me Me; whatever you eat, you give to Me." Yad aśnāsi dadāsi yat : "You want to give in charity, you give to Me." (break) We have to cross this hill? Mr. Malhotra: Yes, we have to cross the hill. And then we again go on plain, then to cross another hill. But they are small, only three, four miles. We have already crossed one near Poona. That was also a small hill. This is called Khandala ghat. That was called (marathi) Kaprij. Some Kaprij Rishi, I think. Ah, there's the name, Kaprij. (break) Mr. Malhotra: Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana. And Bombay. Mr. Malhotra: Now in March it will be completed, this Kṛṣṇa center? Girirāja: It will be almost completed, but we will open. Everything will begin, our activities. Prabhupāda: Tumhen dekha gaya hai? (You have seen?) Mr. Malhotra: Ah. Prabhupāda: They say it will be a unique temple in Bombay. (break) Mr. Malhotra: The whole planning. My son is getting married on 24th of January. The younger son who went to factory this morning. He is getting married. And we are going, taking bride from here to Juhu. There is Hotel Horizon there, near Kṛṣṇa Land. So the bride will be staying there in Horizon, and then from there procession will be going to Sun and Sand, Sun and Sand, so on 24th. Whether you will be in Bombay or not, 24th January? Prabhupāda: May not be. Because Kumbha Mela is there. (break) Mr. Malhotra: . . . that auditorium. Prabhupāda: Yes, auditorium. Mr. Malhotra: This road goes to Bangalore straight, and we go to Mahabaleshwar. This is side. Prabhupāda: Bangalore how many miles? Mr. Malhotra: Total, from Poona, 520 miles. And you go from here on this road only to Goa also. Prabhupāda: Goa. Mr. Malhotra: Goa, yes. To go to Madras, you go also on this road. (break) . . . dolak. Some people will give . . . I mean sounds are different, you know, instruments are music. *Prabhupāda: This is called musical science, Jala*-taraṅga . Jala . Taraṅga means vibration, different vibration. Still there are, among the musicians, there are artists, they'll put vials and make the different tune by filling it with water: dn-dn-dn-dn , dn-dn . (break) Mr. Malhotra: This place is full of tourists from Bombay, from all of Gujarat. (break) Panchgani is one place, and twelve miles' difference, Mahabaleshwar. Also it is twin city like Secunderabad, Hyderabad. (break) In the morning when you go for walk you will find local ladies getting load of food from collected from the forests and taking. Very old, old type of life. (break) . . . this place. I visited Switzerland, and I visited almost every hill station of the country, and almost practically entire world. But I find this place of a different solace. (break) . . . and second, it is very neat and clean. Prabhupāda: Maharashtrians are very neat and clean. Upper class, they are very. (break) . . . karmī. Mr. Malhotra: Good man. Prabhupāda: Good man from worldly point of view, but from spiritual point of view, in the lowest stage. Karmī is the lowest stage. Mr. Malhotra: Lowest stage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then jñānī , then yogī , then bhakta . Mr. Malhotra: More a politician. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmī means this how to enjoy this world. Whole life they have struggled how to enjoy this: "How to enjoy myself. How to allow my men to enjoy." This is karmī platform. Everyone is doing that. Everyone is working hard for himself, for his family, and expand the family, for society, and expand the society, for the nation. Here is karmī plan. Gandhi, Birla, they are all . . . there is no question of spiritual life. Mr. Malhotra: Now this is the Kṛṣṇā River. You just see how small it is, and how big it becomes later on. In the rainy season this road is closed because this all water comes up, you know. Now it is just a small rivulet. This is Kṛṣṇā River. And it comes just opposite our place, from where it starts, from the mountain. Here is the place called Haya. This was also one of the biggest Sanskrit University in the older time, like that of Taksashila. And Sarnath, near Sarnath, what is that place? Not Sarnath—there in Bihar, that place, that was also very big university, no? Prabhupāda: Oh, Taxsila. Mr. Malhotra: No Taxsila was in Punjab, that side. In Bengal, Bihar, that . . . Prabhupāda: Darbhanga. Mr. Malhotra: I visited that. So this was the seat of very old temples, oldest temples in this place, this Haya. And they say this is one of the oldest of the oldest towns or cities of the country. Small place, Taseer with a population of about 10–15,000 people. All the temples are in the Kṛṣṇā River, in the Kṛṣṇā River. (break) Whatever I am today, that is all due to my past karmas, good or bad, I mean. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: And whatever I am doing today, that I will have to reap the harvest in the future. Prabhupāda: You are creating the next position. Mr. Malhotra: So that means that I am bound by my past karmas. My destiny, my fate, is tied with the past karmas . So I have no other goal but to have the phala of past karmas . Or can I change my fate? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are enjoying the past karmas , and you are creating new karmas . Mr. Malhotra: But can I . . . then this means a circle that I'll always be. *Prabhupāda: Karma*-cakra . *Mr. Malhotra: Karma*-cakra . So how can one be out of this cakra? Prabhupāda: That cakra , you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And put all the karmas . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, He says: "You surrender. I square up all your karma ." Mr. Malhotra: Then only square up. Otherwise, no. Otherwise continue in this vicious circle. *Prabhupāda: Dharmasyāsya parantapa mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu*-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). Karma-cakra , this mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani , one after another, one body after another, one body after another, this will continue. If you don't come to Kṛṣṇa, then nivartante , mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani , you have to return again to that karma-cakra . Mr. Malhotra: The only way out is to surrender your . . .? Prabhupāda: To accept Kṛṣṇa that, "You are my Lord. I forgot it. I surrender. Kindly accept me." Indian man: How to surrender? Prabhupāda: Surrender, there are six items. Mr. Malhotra: Six items. Prabhupāda: Yes. That, "If I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection. I am one of His servants. And whatever He does, accept that." Mr. Malhotra: Good or bad. Prabhupāda: There is no bad. Everything is good. And first accept what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa, to reject what is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: And what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa? How one knows? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says. Do that. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Always think of Kṛṣṇa, become His devotee, offer obeisances. It doesn't require any extra endeavor, these things. Whatever you have got, you can do it. You can think of Kṛṣṇa without any impediment. Who can check it if you think of Kṛṣṇa? This is favorable. And what is unfavorable, that should be rejected. What is favorable, that should be accepted. And to believe firmly that "Now I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." (break) But dog has got a quality that he surrenders to his master. The master is a Vaiṣṇava, then dog gets the benefit. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya, mat para, mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mat para, mat para (BG 9.32). When the process is there, everyone can surrender, that "I shall act only what is favorable to get Kṛṣṇa's mercy." Yes. "And I shall not act any way which is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa." These first two determinations. And then, "Because I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." You believe in it. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). Believe in it. "Now I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. My all resultant actions of sinful life is finished. I will not come again." In this way. Indian man: If one surrenders, how to know that Kṛṣṇa has accepted? Prabhupāda: That you will understand. Just like if you eat, you will understand that you are eating. Nobody has to convince you. You will be convinced. Mr. Malhotra: The test of the pudding is by eating. Not by simply telling. Prabhupāda: When you eat, you haven't got to ask somebody else, "Do you think I am happy?" You'll feel yourself. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). If you are actually devotee, then you will be detestful to all material things. (break) . . . mouse of the mountain. (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: Yes, he was declared mouse of the mountain. (break) Prabhupāda: Yes. If you want material power, you must be worshiper of Durgā. Mr. Malhotra: And if you want spiritual . . .? Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. This Bālajī is Viṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: How then Viṣṇu, the incarnations, Kṛṣṇa, then Viṣṇu's incarnation . . . Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu is everything. If you want material power, you can get it from Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: Material power from Viṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Yes, Viṣṇu can give everything. Paramaṁ puruṣa is Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: Viṣṇu can give the power of bhakti also. Prabhupāda: Everything. Yes. Bhakti is . . . generally He gives bhakti . If you want something other than bhakti , you can get it. Mr. Malhotra: This is the center of M.R.A., Moral Rearmament. I phoned them for yesterday, so that Rajmohan Gandhi is away, not here. But the other people are here. We will visit this some time during the day. These days one conference is going on. There are 130 countries. Some conference. Devotee: There? Indian man: What is the subject? Mr. Malhotra: I don't know, remember. Prabhupāda: Oh, you may not know it, and this will do never any benefit. Mr. Malhotra: Now this is Panchgani, starts from here. Prabhupāda: Ah. Mr. Malhotra: . . . starts from here. (end) (Conversation with Mr. Tombe M.L.A.) Mr. Tombe: After all, even if it is thrown out . . . *Prabhupāda: That is also answered in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam by very strong word. Bhāgavata says, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśu ḥ ( SB 2.3.19). If the public is like dogs, camel, hogs and asses, so what is the value of their election? He'll elect another big dog or camel. So there is chaos. Mr. Tombe: Then how to throw out good leadership? Prabhupāda: Yes. Good leadership means you must learn how to lead people. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). If the śreṣṭha , the leader, is ideal, then others will follow. But if the leader is not ideal, if he is not in the awareness of things, then people will be misguided. Mr. Tombe: So how can we chalk out a program of, say, training of leaders from villages . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to take lessons from the biggest leader, Kṛṣṇa. Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). He's the leader of the demigods also. We have to take lesson from. That lesson is there, Bhagavad*-gītā . But we do not take it. We manufacture our leadership. That is the defect. What Kṛṣṇa says . . . everyone is proud of reading Bhagavad-gītā , but the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā is how to kill Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That is their . . . all these. What can I say? These misleaders, they are doing that. Leadership is already there—Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is learning from Kṛṣṇa. So if you learn from Kṛṣṇa you become perfect leader. But we do not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. We manufacture our own ideas. That is failure. Otherwise in our country so many learned sages, especially Kṛṣṇa is there, and their books are there, their instructions are there. We do not take them. Still we become leader. So what kind of leading? He's imperfect, so he cannot lead. Then there will be some mistake and chaos. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said . . . He said, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). You understand little Bengali? So Indians, they can make their life perfect by following this Vedic literature, and they can lead the whole world. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. First of all you become perfect by taking lessons from the Vedic literature. And then you do good to others. But without making yourself perfect, if you try to do good to others, that is chaos. Then again comes, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Some blind men following another blind man, what will be the result? The present Indians, we have lost our own culture. We have rejected our own culture. Still we are leading people. There is chaotic condition. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to correct this mistake. So leaders like you should cooperate. Mr. Tombe: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Then things will be perfect. India . . . if the whole world can be saved from this chaotic position, India can do. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. But that India leaders first of all make his life perfect. Then it will be all right. Just like our . . . of course, I'm not proud, but I am alone. I started this movement alone, without any help. But because I am giving them the perfect information, whole world is taking it. Otherwise, from practical point of view, one man without any help, within ten years he cannot do like this. That's a fact. But I have no difficulty because I am following the supreme leader, Kṛṣṇa. People may say that I've done wonderful, but there is nothing magic. Because I am following Kṛṣṇa, the supreme leader, so far it has become successful. So everyone can do that. Where is the difficulty? Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam (BG 4.2). If we follow the paramparā system it is not difficult. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These all are Prabhupāda's books. Eighty books. *Prabhupāda: Eighty*-four books we have . . . I have written within ten years. And our publication house, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the first in the world for publishing religious and philosophical books. We are selling not less than six lakhs worth books daily. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, publishing division. (indistinct comments to another devotee) Mr. Tombe: I have got only a few of them now. I would like to pick up . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here, these are . . . we only have sample copies in India. So I'll tell Girirāja to bring you some. These are only sample copies for Prabhupāda's display. (end) (Conversation with Mr. Tombe M.L.A.) Mr. Tombe: After all, even if it is thrown out . . . *Prabhupāda: That is also answered in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam by very strong word. Bhāgavata says, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśu ḥ ( SB 2.3.19). If the public is like dogs, camel, hogs and asses, so what is the value of their election? He'll elect another big dog or camel. So there is chaos. Mr. Tombe: Then how to throw out good leadership? Prabhupāda: Yes. Good leadership means you must learn how to lead people. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). If the śreṣṭha , the leader, is ideal, then others will follow. But if the leader is not ideal, if he is not in the awareness of things, then people will be misguided. Mr. Tombe: So how can we chalk out a program of, say, training of leaders from villages . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to take lessons from the biggest leader, Kṛṣṇa. Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). He's the leader of the demigods also. We have to take lesson from. That lesson is there, Bhagavad*-gītā . But we do not take it. We manufacture our leadership. That is the defect. What Kṛṣṇa says . . . everyone is proud of reading Bhagavad-gītā , but the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā is how to kill Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That is their . . . all these. What can I say? These misleaders, they are doing that. Leadership is already there—Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is learning from Kṛṣṇa. So if you learn from Kṛṣṇa you become perfect leader. But we do not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. We manufacture our own ideas. That is failure. Otherwise in our country so many learned sages, especially Kṛṣṇa is there, and their books are there, their instructions are there. We do not take them. Still we become leader. So what kind of leading? He's imperfect, so he cannot lead. Then there will be some mistake and chaos. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said . . . He said, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). You understand little Bengali? So Indians, they can make their life perfect by following this Vedic literature, and they can lead the whole world. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. First of all you become perfect by taking lessons from the Vedic literature. And then you do good to others. But without making yourself perfect, if you try to do good to others, that is chaos. Then again comes, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Some blind men following another blind man, what will be the result? The present Indians, we have lost our own culture. We have rejected our own culture. Still we are leading people. There is chaotic condition. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to correct this mistake. So leaders like you should cooperate. Mr. Tombe: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Then things will be perfect. India . . . if the whole world can be saved from this chaotic position, India can do. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. But that India leaders first of all make his life perfect. Then it will be all right. Just like our . . . of course, I'm not proud, but I am alone. I started this movement alone, without any help. But because I am giving them the perfect information, whole world is taking it. Otherwise, from practical point of view, one man without any help, within ten years he cannot do like this. That's a fact. But I have no difficulty because I am following the supreme leader, Kṛṣṇa. People may say that I've done wonderful, but there is nothing magic. Because I am following Kṛṣṇa, the supreme leader, so far it has become successful. So everyone can do that. Where is the difficulty? Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam (BG 4.2). If we follow the paramparā system it is not difficult. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These all are Prabhupāda's books. Eighty books. *Prabhupāda: Eighty*-four books we have . . . I have written within ten years. And our publication house, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the first in the world for publishing religious and philosophical books. We are selling not less than six lakhs worth books daily. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, publishing division. (indistinct comments to another devotee) Mr. Tombe: I have got only a few of them now. I would like to pick up . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here, these are . . . we only have sample copies in India. So I'll tell Girirāja to bring you some. These are only sample copies for Prabhupāda's display. (end) Devotee (1): I have just come from America, and at the universities, lots of times there are many questions concerning evolution, and I was curious about what our position is in terms of artifacts—bones like dinosaur bones and things like that that the scientists say they found. Prabhupāda: Scientists are rascals, those who are following Darwin. What is their theory? *Devotee (1): They maintain that from the oceans came one*-celled animals. Then from these one-celled animals, they developed into fish and then reptiles. And then these reptiles became very big dinosaurs. And they have put together many big museums. For instance, in Washington the Smithsonian Museum has many, many big bones put together, and they date these millions of years ago. *Prabhupāda: So we have got also the same theory. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāna). (break) . . . within water. So where is the difference? We also admit the forms of life begins from the ocean. Then plants. As soon as the water is dried, there are plants, trees. Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati . Sthāvara means the life which cannot move. So the trees, plants, grass, they cannot move. Then insects, then reptiles, then birds, then beast, then human being. In this way the living entity is changing body. So what is the difficulty? Devotee (1): But they say that the human body developed right from these other bodies. In other words . . . Prabhupāda: Evolution, from beast human body has come. Where is the difference? Even there is difference, what is the idea? Devotee (1): Well, they maintain that therefore man was not created by God, but simply by chemicals. Prabhupāda: Rascals! Wherefrom the life came first? Wherefrom the life came from? When you find life in the water, wherefrom this life came? Devotee (1): They say originally it came from chemicals that came together. Prabhupāda: Rascal! Create from chemicals. Otherwise, beat them with shoes in their mouth. "Why you talk nonsense? Create from chemicals, life." (break) What do they say? Devotee (1): They say they're working on it. Prabhupāda: Then be beaten with shoes. When you're successful, then say. Otherwise, I shall beat you with shoes. That's all. That is your punishment. You have not come to the experimental stage, and you are talking, "This is science." Science is experiment and observation. Unless the experiment is practical, practical science . . . it will be accepted as science when the experiment is successful. Not before that. That is scientific method. First of all, observe: "It may be happening like this." But that "maybe" should be confirmed by experiment. Then it is science. Even in colleges there is practical examination. Theoretical and practical. So unless . . . "We are trying." Everyone will say: "I am trying." "I am trying to become millionaire." When you become millionaire, then say that you are millionaire. You are trying for becoming millionaire, and you say, "I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? Huh? Devotee (1): Yes. No one has ever observed the life coming from matter. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just prove that life comes from chemicals. How is that? "I am trying to be millionaire, therefore I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? You are trying to create from chemicals, therefore you are scientist. What's this kind of scientist? Beat them with shoes, that's all. *Guest (1) (Indian man): I have a researcher in our family, and he thinks the theory of evolution is the daśa*-avatāra . Prabhupāda: You can think like that. Your thinking has no value. Guest (1): No, not my thinking. Prabhupāda: Then don't say: "I am thinking." Guest (1): No, I said I have a researcher in our family; he thinks. Prabhupāda: What research? He's a rascal also! *Guest (1): No, but he thinks the daśa*-avatāra . . . Prabhupāda: "He thinks," means he's a rascal. Nothing to be think. It must be from the śāstra . Guest (1): Is there any evidence in śāstra that I could look? Prabhupāda: What is that? *Guest (1): The daśa*-avatāras , that the first was Matsya and then Kūrma and Varāha, and finally . . . Prabhupāda: That is God's pastime. He becomes like this, like that. It is not evolution. Guest (1): Not evolution. Guru dāsa: God is not so morphic. He's not an animal. Just like we're in this room but we don't become part of the room. (break) Śrutaśravā: . . . so clear, but they refuse to accept it 'cause if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śrutaśravā: You make all these things so crystal clear, but they refuse to accept, because if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense. Prabhupāda: Refusal . . . let them refuse, and who cares for them? Guru dāsa: Actually, if they were successful in any experiment they would be out of a job. So they actually want material life, scientists. Prabhupāda: And now what is their science? This is science, that "We are trying"? What is this nonsense science? Do you think this is science? "We are trying." Everyone can say: "I'm trying." Is that science? Then? Any rascal can say that, "I am trying." Is that science? *Amogha*-līlā: I heard that you had quoted a saying that anyone who goes to Laṅkā becomes a Rāvaṇa, and that similarly, when the devotees come to India, they become Rāvaṇa. I wonder if you would explain that or elaborate or explain how we can avoid this sort of thing happening. (break) I'm sorry? Prabhupāda: Ask the leaders. I was talking that in all our other branches, our men manage the cooking and kitchen, and as soon as they come here, they become . . . bara lath saheb (. . . big minister.) That is Rāvaṇa. Why do they not do here? We have to keep some cook who is neither initiated, nor very clean, a smoker, and we have to keep them. (break) In all other branches, the boys and girls, they manage everything. (break) *Amogha*-līlā: . . . follow the regulations more strictly? Prabhupāda: That I have to say again? That means Rāvaṇa. He's asking. I am repeatedly saying that follow, and he's asking. That means he's Rāvaṇa. Why you are inquiring like that? If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? That means Rāvaṇa. If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? (break) Śrutaśravā: . . . one week ago, and in just four days' time the devotees there have distributed over one lakh of Back to Godhead magazines in just four days. Prabhupāda: But you do not do here. Huh? That means Rāvaṇa. (laughter) (break) . . . to become less intelligent, less active, and therefore I say, yāya sei laṅkā sei haya rāvaṇa , "Anyone who comes to Laṅkā, he becomes Rāvaṇa." Guest (1): Their promotion in local language would be very helpful. Prabhupāda: No, in India will purchase English magazine, he knows English. Guest (1): Yes, he knows, but the popularity will be much more in the Hindi and Gujarati and Marathi speaking people, Bengali speaking. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is for you, Indians. But you have no time. You are busy with your daughter's marriage, and you simply advise. Guest (1): I am busy? Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. Every Indian is busy with his own affair. He'll come and advise, that's all. Advise gratis. But he will not do himself. Guest (1): No, but . . . Prabhupāda: No, this is going . . . I have got full experience that Indians, they will come and give some advice, and go away for daughter's marriage. That's all. Guest (1): Well there are various types of Indians, you know. *Prabhupāda: That type of, ninety*-nine percent. *Guru dāsa: Just like ninety*-nine percent of us become lazy when we come to India. Prabhupāda: You'll advise, but you'll never do it. That is going on. *(break) . . . elephants dance, and we see. This is Indian policy. These white elephants, they'll come and dance, and you'll see. And you are busy with your daughter's marriage. That's all. (break) . . . means vairāgya*-vidyā. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga ( CC Madhya 6.254). Nobody can become a bhakta unless he has disgusted with material life. "I shall do this, I shall do that." And he'll never do bhakti-yoga . That's all. This is not possible. (break) Before leaving my family life I wanted to get my all sons and daughters married, but some of them disagreed, some of them . . . my wife disagreed. "Let them go to hell, I don't care. Time is up. Never mind you are married or not married. Then see your own business." (break) . . . I or you, then who will take care of the marriage of your daughter? Suppose you die immediately? Then who will take care? Guest (1): God will give them . . . *Prabhupāda: Then why don't you do that now? God will take care. It is called, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, civil suicide. Civil suicide. Just like if you commit suicide, that is criminal. But this is voluntarily committing suicide: "Now I am dead. Whatever you like, you do." So we have to commit civil suicide if we are actually attached to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya . . . (BG 18.66). That is gṛha-dharma . But Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up that." But that attachment is there. I do not think . . . suppose I die immediately. Who will take care of my daughter? At that time we say: "God." And why not now? Guest (1): That feeling of attachment one has to give up gradually. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we cannot do because the attachment is there. That is the symptom. Guest (1): Saṅkīrtana will help give up the attachment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore wherever you stay, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will help. Thākā ekhana pāiyā . Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, try for the daughter's marriage. That will help. (break) . . . kabhi mithta nahi. (. . . never gets finished.) Guest (1): Civil suicide is a good thought. Prabhupāda: That is the thought only. Oh, Doctor saheb. Dr. Patel: I asked him where you were, and he said that you are on the roof. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Wo kabh mithta nahi. Samundar jo hai na, uska tufan chalega. Koi sochta hai tufan band ho jaye, tab hum nav chalayenge. Wo sambhav hai nahi. (It never gets over. The waves in the sea will keep on coming. If somebody thinks that he will take out his boat only after the waves subside completely then that's not possible.) Guest (1): Prakriti hai, wo to chalega. (That is part of nature, it will go on.) (break) Hmm? I do not know. (break) Dr. Patel: You agreed, huh? . . . (indistinct) . . . is coming. Prabhupāda: I am going within four days. Dr. Patel: You go, find out what you . . . and then communicate with you. Huh? Prabhupāda: No, you asked me to stay at least a few days. Dr. Patel: But you must stay. If you don't stay, you can't stay, I have got no power to keep you tied here. If you will stay, well and good. If you can't even, well, I will try our best to inform you what should be done in four days. Hmm? Prabhupāda: Let God do whatever He likes. Dr. Patel: God will be doing through us. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . sir bhi dukhta hai . . . (indistinct) (. . . I get a headache . . . (indistinct) . . .) . . . blood pressure. Dr. Patel: But whatever you do . . . (laughs) You do not know . . . Prabhupāda: No, whatever is there is there. Let it remain. They also require some shelter. Dr. Patel: We want to find out . . . (indistinct) . . . why you are getting swelling or whether weakness of the heart. There are various reasons why did you get the swelling of the leg, you know. We must find out by biochemical examination of the internal fluids, such as the blood, urine and stool, and put you on the right information. Now if you follow or not is your own sweet will, sir. *Prabhupāda: Nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ , bālasya neha pitarau śaraṇaṁ nṛsiṁha. Na ārtasya ca agadam. Tāvad vibho tanu*-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām (SB 7.9.19). If Kṛṣṇa neglects somebody, then these things will not help. Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa never neglects anybody. You have told once so. It is we, our own actions which we, I mean, forget. We get. If you walk too much then you get tired. If you sit down you do not. If you walk, then there is swelling of the leg, sir. Eh? So it is not Kṛṣṇa. I mean, this is your own saying, eh? I am not manufacturing my own arguments. Prabhupāda: No, the śāstra says, nārtasya cāga . . . there is no guarantee. But we may try, but there is no guarantee. Dr. Patel: This is the play of māyā , that we all know. But so long as we are in māyā we have to play our part, haven't we? Prabhupāda: But it is supposition, the pathologist. Dr. Patel: No, I am going to bring. That was myself. Prabhupāda: He'll take blood, he'll take this, he'll take that. So that is another trouble. (chuckles) Dr. Patel: No, no, but why should you have a minus on blood? Why should you have minus, and whose blood is it? This is your own argument, sir, I am very sorry. Prabhupāda: No, no . . . Dr. Patel: Nothing is ours. The body is not ours. Prabhupāda: When you take blood, there is . . . Dr. Patel: Not of that . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, not that, but I feel . . . Dr. Patel: How you feel? You are a soul! The body feels; you do not feel. Now we are talking about the philosophy. Prabhupāda: I am not a liberated person. Dr. Patel: No, but . . . you are liberated soul, we are following you. There are many others, sir, otherwise we would not have come behind you. So, sir, that is not right. And I think I have got a right to prevail upon you. Have I or have I not? Tell me that, or I'll run away back again. (break) . . . it's not full. Who knows? We may be liberated in past birth. That is how I come. Prabhupāda: That's fine. That's your process. You are trying to do something for the disease. Dr. Patel: You see, we must know exactly what is happening. After all, science is the same with the Āyurvedic or allopathic or any. Science is, I mean, advancement of man's evolution of the man's understanding about things. Prabhupāda: I say, but somebody says that . . . what is the medicine? I take some Āyurvedic medicine. Dr. Patel: No, you do take. We don't say no. You don't take any medicine, we know exactly where you stand, as the modern science explains us. (break) Well, he may not tell us truth immediately, but that is his aim. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Now I am feeling some dizziness. Dr. Patel: Sit down. You sit down. Prabhupāda: Where is that sitting place? Dr. Patel: Niche jayenge ab hum. (We will go downstairs now.) Go down. (break) Prabhupāda: Harer nāma eva kevalam , kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21). (break) . . . is a big tank of Calcutta Gas Company. That looks like this. Dr. Patel: We have got also tank like this in Bombay. We have also gas company tanks. It's in . . . (indistinct) . . . we have bigger tanks here of the petroleum companies. Huge tanks, petroleum tanks. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: When I was in Northern Ireland preaching, they blew it up, the gas tank, by bombs. They blew the whole gas tank up. Prabhupāda: Where? Guru dāsa: In Northern Ireland, Belfast. Dr. Patel: Those terrorists. Prabhupāda: (referring to seat) It was here. Who has taken? Guru dāsa: It is coming now. Āsana , āsana . (break) Prabhupāda: The others, others is not. Devotee (2): The other seat got taken away, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for cleaning. For making it cleaner. Devotee (1): We can get mattresses from your room and a pillow if you'd like to sit down. Prabhupāda: No, no, this is all right. (break) Dr. Patel: Only tired feel? (break) . . . or may be due to poverty of heart action, or it may be due to some inaction on the part of the kidney or some collection of some obnoxious substances in the blood. That is why we must have an analysis done, so for a right understanding, we can advise you what to do. Anyone can write analysis, acidity and . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Now, everything is less. Dr. Patel: Then you stay here. And you're completely home, without anything. You are not prepared to . . . this is . . . Prabhupāda: As soon as this building is, I will take. Dr. Patel: We listen to you, but you don't listen. That is the misfortune of ours. Huh? Prabhupāda: Actually, I have got so many engagements. Actually, I have got engagement in Bhubaneswar . . . Dr. Patel: And you are going to Bhubaneswar after fifteen days, no? Prabhupāda: . . . Calcutta, in Allahabad, then Māyāpur, then Vṛndāvana, then Bombay. Dr. Patel: So to make you fit to go round, you must do something. It's very logical. Guru dāsa: "Penny wise, pound foolish." Dr. Patel: So let pound be wise for the penny foolish. If you do in right path then you may not break down like . . . (indistinct) . . . getting all this trouble. (break) . . . at least for four, five days. We don't want any more. In one days we will find out what to . . . how to . . . this will be cured. I don't mean medicine, but even advice, food, this, that, other things. If you get rid of the medicine, well, all medicines are, I mean, synthetics. They are not produced from animals. Many of them. (break) Prabhupāda: Harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). (break) . . . that sound all the time. (sounds of birds) Girirāja: Do they have many birds in Bhubaneswar? Are there many birds in Bhubaneswar? Prabhupāda: Wherever there are nice trees, there will be birds. Guru dāsa: Girirāja is asking, he thinks there's more birds in Bombay than in Bhubaneswar. Girirāja Prabhu is stating there is more birds in Bombay. Dr. Patel: There are more crows in Bombay than any other place. (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, no. They are also birds. Dr. Patel: There are very more filthier, for the crows, to clean. Guru dāsa: So Prabhupāda should go, then. Dr. Patel: No, you see, if the good people is there, up there, you know the filth disappears. Guru dāsa: That's what the śāstra says. The sun dries up urine in a filthy place. Dr. Patel: So he must be here. Another argument, and he will answer. Guru dāsa: Yes, but there is also urine in Bhubaneswar. Dr. Patel: In Bhubaneswar you are going to have any plan for making a temple? Prabhupāda: What is my plan, that is always there, that is to print books and construct temples. Throughout the whole world this plan is going on: fifty percent construction, fifty percent printing books. Whatever I get money, I give him. That's all. I am the same beggar, either it comes ten lakhs or fifty lakhs , ten crores . Dr. Patel: You are exhibiting this body to be "I". Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam akledyo 'śoṣya eva ca (BG 2.24). Prabhupāda: No, no, that is different. Dr. Patel: You come down to body consciousness and talk to us. We want you to talk from higher consciousness. Prabhupāda: I have no higher consciousness. Dr. Patel: Then talk from the lower consciousness, still lower. Prabhupāda: Why should I? Dr. Patel: Let us go out and make a business in the stock market. Prabhupāda: I am doing business. I am selling books. (laughter) Dr. Patel: Stock exchange. Why not? It is very easy. Prabhupāda: I am selling books. Dr. Patel: Why not a Wall Street operation? It is very easy. Prabhupāda: They are all engaged in doing business. Dr. Patel: Have you wanted a businessman to come? Prabhupāda: I am doing business. Guest (3): Prabhupada ke mafik duniya me koi businessman hai? (Is there any businessman like Prabhupāda in the world?) *Dr. Patel: Ye to baniya hai. Baniya . . . (He is a businessman. A businessman) is a sweet*-oil tongued fellow. Guest(3): Prabhupāda itna bada businessman hai. World ka sab businessman fail ho gaya. (Prabhupāda is such a big businessman that all businessmen of the world have failed before him.) Dr. Patel: We can still make a bigger business in Wall Street. Have a Wall Street here in Bombay and . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: You are criticizing the bāniyās . The bāniyās criticize the doctor. (laughter) Dr. Patel: And doctor criticizes you. Prabhupāda: Bāniyās say, they say, nal jal jocchuri teen niye daktari, (one tap, a little water and cheating, make up a quack doctor.) Dr. Patel: Nal jal . . .? Prabhupāda: Jocchuri . Dr. Patel: Jocchuri means? *Prabhupāda: Cheating. Suniye na. Teen chiz chahiye unko. Ek nal chahiye aur pani, lal*-nil pani . . . (Just listen. Three things are needed. One tap, red or blue coloured water . . .) Or all cheating words. Dr. Patel: But according to our śāstra , it is so. Prabhupāda: No, no, this is according to bāniyā , the doctor is calculated . . . Dr. Patel: Bāniyā is right in that way. Bāniyā is right. Prabhupāda: Humara Bangla desh me bolta hai je nal jal jocchuri, teen niye daktari. (In Bengal, they say that three things are needed to become a quack doctor, one tap, little water and cheating words.) Dr. Patel: In Bengali. Prabhupāda: In Bengali village there are many quacks. You know that. Everywhere. (laughter) So what their business? Nal jal jocchuri teen niye daktari. (One tap, a little water and cheating make up a quack doctor.) *Dr. Patel: In Mahābhārata , in Vidura*-nīti , Vidura has mentioned that a doctor should not be trusted and should not be allowed to come in the house. I am reading presently that part of Mahābhārata . Why? Because they must be right from the beginning, in olden times also they must be of the same type. Prabhupāda: Another place, Vaiṣṇava says, either he is businessman or doctor, anyone, they are all madmen. *Jaise koi admi ko bhoot pakad leta hai. (Just like a person who is haunted by a ghost.) Ghostly*-haunted. And he talks all nonsense. Similarly, anyone who is in the material condition, he is a ghostly haunted man. So he can talk anything, all nonsense. Piśācī pāile yena . . . this is applicable to everyone. Anyone who has got this material body, he's ghostly-haunted. Therefore we are explaining that verse, that first treatment is how to get out of the clutches of this ghost which has attacked everyone. So ghostly haunted man, he's himself a victim of the ghost. How he can treat other men? He's also haunted by the ghost. This is the position. Even one may say: "I am haunted by a better ghost." That may be, but every one of us ghostly haunted. And śāstra says this is treatment: tapasya . Tapo divyaṁ putrakā , yasmād sattvaṁ śuddhyed (SB 5.5.1). Sattva. Sattva, our existence, is polluted. The first business . . . (break) . . . the skin and bone. The skin and bone will continue so long I am in the material condition of life, either bird's skin . . . just like who was talking of evolution? Who was? (indistinct answer by devotees) Yes. This disease of skin and bone will continue. Because the spirit soul is not the bone and skin. The Darwin's theory, he is putting that the bone is changing. The bone is not changing. You get different bones in different life. I am changing my position. I am going from one apartment to another apartment. The apartment not changing; I am changing apartment. That is the difference between Darwin's theory and our theory. They are thinking the apartment is becoming another apartment. No. The apartments are already there. I am entering different apartments as I can pay for it. That is karma . According to my karma , I am sometimes residing in one apartment, in another apartment. This is going on. The Darwin's theory, the apartment is changing. That's not the fact. Fact is I am living entity. Tathā dehān . . . Kṛṣṇa also says, tathā dehāntara . Apartment antara . The spirit soul is the same. There is no change. That is spirit always, but according to his karma , he is going from this apartment, or this body, tathā dehān . . . that is the main point with the modern science and our Vedic knowledge. That is the main difference. They have no idea of the existence of the soul, and therefore say: "We are trying to make. We are trying to make." This rascaldom is going on. You cannot make soul. That is not possible. You cannot do anything. You cannot make even the body, what to speak of the soul. This is . . . Dr. Patel: Modern scientists don't say that we can make the soul. Soul is permanent in every man. Prabhupāda: No, the rascals say: "We can create." So that rascal, number of that rascal is more. They are saying, bluffing that, "Now we shall create chemicals. We are trying." This is going on. Just this morning he was saying. Dr. Patel: It is the theory of these people, I think, that . . . Guest (4): Communists. Dr. Patel: Communists. Prabhupāda: That means rascalism. Not a single soul has been created till now and these rascals are claiming that they are going . . . and they are scientists. We have to accept them as scientists. Just see. This is . . . not only now. One gentleman, one big doctor, chemist, he has got Nobel Prize, he came to California, and our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, he was in the also in the university, he's also doctor and chemist. So he was speaking on the chemical evolution. So he's my student, he challenged him that, "If I give you chemicals, can you prepare life?" "That I cannot say." Dr. Patel: Even a living cell of life . . . Prabhupāda: No, it was meeting. When Svarūpa Dāmodara challenged him that, "Suppose I give you the chemicals, right chemicals. Can you prepare a life?" Then he said: "That I cannot say." Why? Why do you say nonsense? Dr. Patel: Because their definition of life is very meager. They say that life is a chemical imbalance, a state of chemical imbalance. That is wrong. Life is something higher than . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore these chemists—they are predominating—so how it is possible to take their version? (greets someone) Aiye. Baithiye. (Please come. Take your seat.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (break) . . . a simple version of Vaiṣṇava: Jaya . Wherefrom you are coming? Devotee (2): From London. Prabhupāda: Oh. You are Englishman? Devotee (2): Yes. English. Prabhupāda: Stay here. We want some Englishmen. (laughter) No. We want Englishmen, Australian, Canadian, because they have no visa problem. Dr. Patel: American will have no visa problem very soon. Guru dāsa: Why? Dr. Patel: There is no question why. We'll understand it. Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. So the visa problem is a great problem for us, because in India for conducting our movement, we have to import the white men. Our Indians, they are not joining. So that is a great problem for me. They have to come, and they have to go again. And each time coming and going, ten thousand rupees. And that is happening at least one hundred cases every year. Ten thousand, hundred times, just imagine. This is my economic problem. Therefore I'm asking, "If you are Englishman, please stay." Because here, in India, they will see that, "The white man dancing, let us see." They will never join. They are busy with their own affairs. They will advise, "Do this, do that," but they will never come. This is my position. Practical. Therefore I'm begging the Englishmen, the Canadians, the Australians, "Please come and stay." Because huge establishment, who will manage? I am managing with them, but there is economic question. For each person I have to spend ten thousand rupees at least, and such hundred case . . . Devotee: One million. Prabhupāda: This is the position. The Indians are not interested. They are not interested. Dr. Patel: You are firing everyone, so they run away. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What can be done? This is real position. Dr. Patel: Only I am a fool, not running away. (laughter) He says, Prabhupāda, "You rascals . . ." Prabhupāda: Everyone may be a fool, but if he continues to remain a fool, that is very bad. (laughter) Dr. Patel: A fool is a fool always. He cannot change his habits . . . *Prabhupāda: More or less every one of us, we are fool, mūḍha . Kṛṣṇa has stated mūḍha , mūḍha . Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). He has chastised like anything. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān (BG 16.19). So anyone who's not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is within these categories: duṣkṛtina , narādhama , mūḍha, māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna , āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ . This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is Indian movement, but na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ . They are not taking seriously. That is the position. It is our movement. Kṛṣṇa came in India, and because India is so glorified place, puṇya-bhūmi, even the demigods, they desire. Not India; *this planet, Bhārata*-varṣa. Formerly, the whole Bhārata-varṣa means whole planet. Anyway, for the time it is now minimized. So it is not ordinary land. So our men, they are not interested in such great movement. How much regrettable it is. And who are they? Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). If you speak the truth, then you take the quotation of Kṛṣṇa. Now every Indian should take part in this great movement. Every Indian. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. *It is para*-upakāra . India's business is para-upakāra . India's business is not exploitation. That is Indian. And para-upakāra means not that daridra-nārāyaṇa bhojana . No. Para-upakāra means to give him knowledge, for want of which he is suffering. That is real . . . *This is his real suffering. He's part and parcel of God. Qualitatively, he's as good as God, but he's suffering. Why he's suffering? Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). He has come to this material world, prakṛti , and . . . or mental concoction, he's creating his plan and struggling for existence. This is real suffering. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save him from real suffering. That Indians should take very seriously and join this movement. And para-upakāra , people need it all over the world. Otherwise, why these young boys, they have joined me? They are finding something relief by this movement. Otherwise, what business he has got to join with an Indian, poor Indian? I went to their country with forty rupees, that's all. So they are finding something relief. And actually it is relief. So our Indians are not interested. India is supposed to be the . . . what is called? Benefactor, or . . .? *Dr. Patel: Deva*-bhūmi , deva-bhūmi . Prabhupāda: Yes. But this knowledge is here. Huh? Dr. Patel: So they came, and we are there in the knowledge already. Apan mandir me jayenge? (Are we going to the temple?) Prabhupāda: Time ho gaya kya? (Is it time to go?) You can sit down here? No? Girirāja: I feel this is important. *Prabhupāda: All right. So, sab bharata*-varshi, young men, jitne hai, sabhi movement ko lijiye seriously. (So all young Indians should take this movement seriously.) It is not ordinary movement. Ye cheating movement nahi hai. (This is not a cheating movement.) This is real movement. Kṛṣṇa, what Kṛṣṇa is speaking, what Caitanya Mahāprabhu is speaking, that is not cheating. That is real solution of the problem. So we have taken the business of Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So every intelligent person, intelligent young man . . . now we have got . . . we have got everywhere, but especially now in Bombay—it is important city—we have constructed this. We can keep at least five hundred, six hundred men in these buildings. But who is coming? Nobody's coming. Dr. Patel: If they all come, then it will be difficult for you. *Prabhupāda: Then let them come first of all. (laughter) There is no "if." There is sufficient place. Come. But nobody's coming. They want to see, "Let these white men come and we see." That's all. "We see the fun." This is going on. They are coming. They are disgusted, but we are not disgusted. That is the difficulty. Therefore I was speaking to this boy, "You are Englishman. You have come." It's a problem now in Māyāpur, here. And the government is after them as soon as three months pass, "Get out, get out, get out, get out." Then how shall I conduct my business, a big, big establishment? This is another problem. But Kṛṣṇa is doing His own business. But practically seeing. This is India's business. Bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). Manuṣya-janma , not the cats and dogs, but those who have taken the human form. It is their business. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra , janma sārthaka . . . first of all, make your life successful by understanding the philosophy. Then, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra , preach this philosophy all over the world. That is para-upakāra . So actually that is being done. They understand; they are understanding this philosophy. There is struggle now in foreign countries. There is opposition now. Hmm? Who will explain what is the opposition? Girirāja: Today we just got a new package from New York from this boy. And some of the parents were charging that we were kidnapping and mentally imprisoning their children by making them devotees. Because from their point of view their children were lost to our movement. So . . . Prabhupāda: He's a lost child. His father and mother came to me, and mother was crying. I said: "So take your son." And the son will not go. (laughter) Dr. Patel: You are washing away their brains. Prabhupāda: (laughing) So they are charging like that. What is the new charge? Huh? Śrutaśravā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are saying "mind control." Prabhupāda: (laughing) "Mind control." Yes. *Śrutaśravā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, so many . . . all the big scholars in America, all the big famous scholars, they have put together one petition saying how authorized our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement are. And they are willing to come forward now. If any time they want some papers in the courtroom to show how bona fide our movement is, how we are actually not brainwashers and mind*-controlled, there are these scholars in America, they have pledged their support. Girirāja: There was a meeting of four big scholars at Harvard University—it's like the Oxford of America. And one famous theologian named Cox . . . Prabhupāda: Harvey Cox? Girirāja: Yes, and Kīrtanānanda Swami. His books are very famous. And they have brought up this issue of freedom of religion, that this is a bona fide religious movement and we should have freedom to worship. Then there's also a letter from a member of the World Fellowship of Religion, and he is also saying that he takes this very seriously and very grave, that such a bona fide movement is not being allowed to practice their religion freely. And then there's one, I think, Professor Sharma at one American University, and he is . . . Prabhupāda: Sharma or Sukla? *Girirāja: No, another one. Not Sukla. And this Sharma is saying that he has personal experience that this is a bona fide movement, and that the American public in general may not know, but A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is one of the renowned writers of translations of Vedic translations and commentaries of Vedic literature. (break) And then Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja is going with . . . a Swami? Chandra Swami, some Indian svāmī in America. But he's going with Ādi-keśava Mahārāja to meet the new President of the United States on January 27th. Prabhupāda: He's going to see? *Girirāja: Yes, Jimmy Carter. On January 20th he will become the next President. So Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja and this one Indian sannyāsī , they are going to make a representation to the new President. Prabhupāda: Who is that Indian svāmī ? Śrutaśravā: His name is Chandra Swami. Prabhupāda: Chandra Swami? So why . . .? Guest (4): He's a young man. Prabhupāda: He must be Māyāvādī. Girirāja: I'm sure he is. Prabhupāda: He's taking advantage of this. He's a Māyāvādī. Guest (4): He's a man who is following tantric . Prabhupāda: So what is this nonsense? This should not be . . . he should not accompany. He's taking advantage of it. Guest (4): He's also directly associated with the Prime Minister, this young man, Chandra Swami. Dr. Patel: The Prime Minister is the greatest Māyāvādī. *Prabhupāda: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna (BG 7.15). Māyāvādī means māyā has taken his knowledge. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . Ninety-nine percent they are Māyāvādīs. Guest (4): Swāmījī, what about those missionaries who are working in India who are coming from abroad, and they are actually exploiting? If they put a charge against our institution, well, we can definitely say that we are motivating the intellect to take into the higher stage of life. Here the missionaries who come, they go in the backward areas, and those who are not learned, those who are practically uneducated . . . I mean, their mission is to convert them in Christianity. You see, that charge is rather more grave than the particular one which they have leveled against us. You see, we can put that argument, isn't it? How many Hindus are converted into Christianity? We are not converting them, we are just . . . *Prabhupāda: Our case is not that we are going to convert one Hindu to Christian, or Christian to Hindu. There is no meaning. Our is, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Even if you are Hindu, even you are Muslim, you are Christian, kick it out. That is our movement. We do not advocate that "You are Christian; you become Hindu." Or "You are Hindu; you become . . ." They are taking like that. But our movement is not that. Guest (4): That's what I say. *Prabhupāda: Our movement is, either you are Hindu, either you are Muslim, either you are Christian, you kick out all this. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya . Simply you become surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, or God. This is our . . . and anyone who can do that, he is first-class religious. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Adhokṣaja. God's name is Adhokṣaja. You cannot see Him beyond your material perception. So if you are trained up to surrender to God, then you are religious. We do not say that you become Hindu or Muslim or Christian or this or that. We do not say so. Dr. Patel: But all Christians, if they truly are . . . I mean Hindus, that Christ . . . Prabhupāda: No, either he become Hindus, that does not mean the Hindus are perfect. We do not mean that. Even if he becomes Hindu, what is the benefit? No benefit. Dr. Patel: No. Even he becomes a Christian, there is no benefit. *Prabhupāda: I say any religious stamp, material, there is no benefit. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). You have to give up all these designations. And bhakti , love of Godhead, or service to God, begins when you are relieved from these designations. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When becoming God conscious you become completely purified, then your devotional life begins. And so long you are entangled with this designation, there is no question of devotional service. Either you Hindu or Muslim or Christian, it doesn't matter. So our business is not that, that we convert a Hindu to a Christian or a Christian to a Hindu. That is not our business. They are thinking, because we dress like that, with tilaka , with māla , they think "Hindu." But it's not our business to convert the Christians to become Hindus, as all other missionaries, they are doing. They are trying to increasing the number of Christian or Hindus. So our . . . there is no question of increasing. It is very difficult to accept. *Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy. Out of millions and millions of persons, one becomes perfect. And out of millions of perfect, one may understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the version of Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy that everyone, each one will become Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. But by the grace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , this is helping. Otherwise, it is very difficult task. Very difficult. It is recommended in the śāstra , kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply the Kali-yuga, kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ (SB 12.3.51). This is the version of Śukadeva Gosvāmī. He described the faulty ocean of this Kali-yuga, and at last he encouraged that "Mahārāja, there is one opportunity in this age." Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ , very great opportunity. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya : simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet , he becomes liberated and he goes back to home. This opportunity we are preaching. That's all. Otherwise, to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. This opportunity, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya . And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also recommends, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalaṁ kalau nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21). Otherwise, in this age, very difficult. (break) *Guest (4): During the Kumbha*-melā we are having our anna-kṣetra to serve the direct sādhus. We already started our camp on 21st December to last after 10th of February. If Mahārāja and all other devotees, they can definitely offer free arrangements over there because we have got the best camp. We have got the best camp. Prabhupāda: So why should we spend for our camp? (laughter) Guest (4): We are just on the bed of the river, far away from the melā , which is about three, four . . . we have our āśramas at various places, you know. Prabhupāda: What is this philosophy? Guest (4): What is? Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy? Guest (4): Philosophy is bhajana , Ādi Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: But whether you recognize Kṛṣṇa . . . Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, he was our guru . We have published a book from the Calcutta University, so just take your remise. Leave the book for you. Prabhupāda: Oh, this is for me? Baithiye, baithiye. Thoda Vedānta philosophy par charcha kijiye. (Please sit, please sit. Let us have a small discussion on Vedānta philosophy.) Let us discuss. What is Vedānta philosophy? Let us discuss something. You belong to this camp, so what is Vedānta ? Guest (4): Ādi Śaṅkarācārya's preaching, actually defining God as what he thought. Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning? Everyone can think of God according to his whims. You say: "As he thought." That is not standard. Guest (4): So, what he describes . . . Prabhupāda: No, first of all, let us . . . whether if you think of God in your own way, is that valid or not? Guest (4): Because he has given a thought to it, you know. He has thought about it. *Prabhupāda: Anything might be the first*-class thought, but do you think that any man can think of God and create God? Do you think it is all right? Guest (4): Well, we are guided by those who have given a thought to it and who have meditated actually. Prabhupāda: You said that, "As he thought." Guest (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: So God is unlimited and you are limited. So how you can think of God? Guest (4): You see, I'll just quote one of his stanzas which reveal . . . Prabhupāda: I am talking . . . Guest (4): I understand your point of view, but I'm just, to Your Holiness, in the last stanza of his advaita philosophy, he says, ahaṁ nirvikalpo nirākāra rūpa vibhur apya sarvatra sarvendriyāṇi sadame sama . . . Prabhupāda: Who says " aham "? Guest (4): Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: That means a person is thinking of God. So that is my point, whether an individual person can think of God and ascertain that "Here is God." Guest (4): He comes to that particular conclusion, though, Your Holiness, he comes . . . he says that ahaṁ nirvikalpa nirākāra rūpa . . . Prabhupāda: So nirākāra . . . if you are speaking, then how he can become nirākāra ? Guest (4): He actually defines what prevails in the universe, what is that element which governs us. Prabhupāda: Let us just discuss from the point. As you say that, "I think" and "I speak," so when you speak, when you think, whether you are nirākāra or ākāra. Guest (4): He defines, ultimately, after all thinking . . . Prabhupāda: I am asking you. Guest (4): He has come to that conclusion. Prabhupāda: I'm asking you that when you think, when you . . . what is that other thing? Speak. So can anybody who is nirākāra , he can think and speak? Is there any experience? So what is the use of talking like that? Dr. Patel: Thinking is done by the mind, and mind is not soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. So, no, whatever it may be. If I think, if I speak, I am ākāra ; I'm not nirākāra . And that is for everyone. This is contra . . . Guest (4): What is that "everyone"? Prabhupāda: What it may be. First come to the platform of understanding. As soon as I think, I speak, this speaking, I'm thinking, is not coming from nirākāra. Guest (4): But what is that "I"? Prabhupāda: "I" means . . . what do you mean by "I"? I am person, you are person. When I say "I say," you say that we are person. So how you can say nirākāra ? It must be common knowledge. When I say "I speak," that is not nirākāra . How it can be nirākāra ? It is contradictory. Guest (4): It is not contradictory, but . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it is contradictory. Unless you have got a personality, you cannot speak, you cannot think. So how it is nirākāra ? That is my first point. Kṛṣṇa says " aham ." He is person. We worship Kṛṣṇa as person. He says, aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). That " aham ," He's person. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa as person because He says, aham ādir hi devānām . *He's person. Kṛṣṇa never said that, "I am nirākāra ." Where He has said? Can you quote any verse? When He says nirākāra , He says like this: mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam (BG 9.4). Mayā , "by Me." Tatam idaṁ sarvam , "everywhere, by My energy." Just like the sun-god. The sun-god is within the sun globe. His bodily luster is coming. The sun*-god can say: "The sunshine is my bodily exposition." That is reasonable. Just like a big light, it has got exposition. Similarly . . . and that is confirmed in the śāstra : yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (BS 5.40). Yasya , the person. *So when Kṛṣṇa said, mayā tatam idam , mayā means, "I am there." But "I" is existing. That "I", person, is existing. Just like if I say that "It is I who has expanded. I am expanded all over the world by this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement," that's a fact. But that does not mean I am not a person. If I say that, "I am . . . this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means I am, I am spread by spreading this movement," that's a fact. But does it mean that I am imperson? That is, Kṛṣṇa says: mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta*-mūrtinā. Avyakta . So the same example we can give that in all my branches, 110 branches, they worship me as their guru. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4): "Everything is existing on My management." Nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ : "But I am not there." It is a fact. All these 110 branches, they are going on under my direction, but not that I am present everywhere. But that does not mean I am not a person. So the supreme, the supreme manager, the supreme controller, how He can be nirākāra ? That is my first question. Dr. Patel: He means to say, sir, that the māyākāra is not there. But the divyākāra is there, as we say. Let us understand him. Prabhupāda: No, He . . . nirākāra is there. So far His management power is going on, that is nirākāra . But that nirākāra does not mean that I am also nirākāra . That is the defect. The Supreme Person, it is confirmed by the śāstra . The Absolute Truth is person ultimately. *So those who are simply captivated by the Brahman, nirākāra , they are in the . . . just in the beginning of knowledge. Their knowledge is not perfect. That is not Vedānta . That is knowledge, but it is not anta. And Vedānta means the ultimate knowledge. And that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). If one does not know Kṛṣṇa, he's not a Vedāntist. That is my point. He does not know what is Vedānta . The veda-anta means Kṛṣṇa. Anta means the last word. The last word is brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate . Bhagavān. Unless one goes to the Supreme Lord Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, he's not a Vedāntist. That is my point. Veda means knowledge. Dr. Patel: Sir, Śaṅkarācārya also said, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindam . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. One who says . . . we are studying from our common sense. Veda means knowledge, and anta means the last. And Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). So unless you know Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of Vedānta . There may be Veda . . . Guest (4): Knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Hah, knowledge. But that is not the ultimate knowledge. The ultimate knowledge will come when you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā : bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Therefore all these so-called Vedāntists, they will have to wait for many millions of years to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the position. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante . And if he's actually in knowledge, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate . That is the sign. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is wanted. So Vedāntist, so-called Vedāntist, we do not approve them because they have not come to the ultimate point of knowledge. This is clear. Veda means knowledge; *anta , anta means the last point. So unless you come to that last point of knowledge, that is not Vedānta . That may be Veda, but it is not Vedānta . Vedānta means māṁ prapadyate . Now, whether you approve these statements? Vedānta means to know Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedānta*-kṛd vedānta-vid ca aham . Dr. Patel: "I am the main meaning of the *Vedas* ." Prabhupāda: Yes, He is the . . . so He can speak what is Vedānta . And unless one accepts this Vedānta , he's not a Vedāntist. Therefore some of our Vaiṣṇava friends, they have given me this title, Bhaktivedanta. In 1947, something, they, purposefully, they gave me the title that Vedānta means bhakti . "So you take this title, 'Bhaktivedanta.' " And we are preaching this Vedānta , that the ultimate platform of Veda , knowledge, is to understand Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). So He's person; *He's speaking. So not that . . . the Māyāvādīs, they take that paratattva is the nirākāra*-brahman . But that is not paratattva . Here the person says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya . So if you have to accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme authority, then Vedānta means, He says also, to know Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, it is not anta. It may be middle, it may be beginning, but not anta . Dr. Patel: Sir, Śaṅkarācārya has made so many obstructs for this bhakti . And I mean to follow it . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, I'm talking of Kṛṣṇa. There are many other talkers. We are concerned because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. That's all. That is our philosophy. We may be fools and rascals, doesn't matter. But we accept what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all. Like a child, he's a child, he may be a fool. But when the father says: "My dear child, this is called microphone," and if the child says: "This is microphone," that is correct, because he takes the word of the father, who knows things. He may be child. So our business is like that. We don't claim ourself to be very learned, very advanced. We are fools and rascals. (break) *"How can I become guru ?" one may say: "I am not so learned, I am not so . . ." "No, no, you haven't got to bother. Still you can become guru ." "How?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "If you simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said, then you become guru ." That's all. So our business is that. We are guru not that because we are very learned, so-called Vedāntist. No. We are lowest of the lowest. But we are faithful to the words of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We have no other business. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has ordered, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bās . Very easy. And that is being effective. Now because I am carrying these words of Kṛṣṇa throughout the whole world, perhaps I have done the best service than the combined so much Vedāntists. All the Vedāntists of India could not do that. That's a fact. How it has become possible? Because we are simply speaking what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. That's all. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa . . . that's all. I do not claim that I am Sanskrit scholar, I am this big man, that man. No. Whatever books I have written, only about this—Kṛṣṇa. *In our book in every page you will find Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa. My Guru Mahārāja, if we used to write some article, so we wanted to show him how it is written. So he was very busy. So somebody would read, and Guru Mahārāja would say: "How many times he has said 'Kṛṣṇa'?" (laughter) If he finds that in every page there is "Kṛṣṇa," it is all right. That's all. (laughter) So we are making Vedāntist, "How many times he chants Kṛṣṇa?" If he chants always Kṛṣṇa, yes, he's Vedāntist. That's all. Bās . Because śāstra says, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). That is being effective. These boys, their forefathers or their father, grandfather, never knew what is Kṛṣṇa. But kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet . That is actually fact. So unless there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no question of Vedānta . That is my point. Ācchā . Jayenge . . . udhar nahi jana. (We shall go . . . but not there.) Dr. Patel: Zyada nahi bolne ka. (We should not say too much.) Prabhupāda: Nahi, Krishna naam to bolna hi hai. (No, we have to glorify Kṛṣṇa's holy name.) Dr. Patel: Krishna bolo magar gussa mat karo. (Take Kṛṣṇa's name but don't get angry.) Prabhupāda: Kirtaniyah sada harih. Krishna ka naam sab samay bolo. Ta aap log hum log ko thoda sahay kjiye Krishna naam prachar karne ke liye. ( Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ . Kṛṣṇa's name should be taken continuously. So all of you can kindly help me in spreading the holy name of Kṛṣṇa.) That is real Vedānta . And the Vedānta says also . . . if you actually read Vedānta , what is the beginning of Vedānta ? Boliye? (Tell me?) What is the beginning? Dr. Patel: Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Prabhupāda: This is not Vedānta . This is *Īśopaniṣad*. Devotee: Janmādy asya yataḥ . *Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This is Vedānta . Yes. That is Vedānta , Brahma*-sūtra . This is Vedānta . So this life is meant for Vedānta . Athāto brahma jijñāsā . And what is Brahman? Janmādy asya yataḥ . Brahman means the Supreme Soul of everything. And Kṛṣṇa replies, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Then Vedānta starts. I'm inquiring what is the ultimate source of everything, and here is the answer. If you don't believe, that is another thing. You go on talking like anything. That is another thing. But answer is there. Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So we have to go to such mahātmā who knows vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti . Then it will be all right. But if we want to waste time, that is another thing. *So I am very glad to see you. So I wish that you may spread real Vedānta . That is essence of Vedas . Vedānta means essence of Vedas . Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Light is . . . of course there is light in the sunshine and there is light in the sun globe, but the source of light is coming from the sun*-god. Just like electric bulb, thousand power. So the illumination is also light, and the source of illumination, the bulb, that is also light. And what is that? Filament within? That is also light. But what is the anta light? Not this illumination. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the original source of light. Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (BS 5.40). It is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā . So Brahman knowledge is partial Kṛṣṇa knowledge. Paramātmā knowledge, partial Kṛṣṇa knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa knowledge is perfect. So partial knowledge is also knowledge, but Vedānta means full knowledge. So unless you come to that point, it is not Vedānta . The another example is just like from a distant place you see one mountain. You'll see just like something cloud. It is not cloud; *it is the mountain. But because you are seeing from a distant place you see it is something cloud. If you go little further, you'll see something green, and when you actually go to the mountain you'll find so many trees, so many living entities, so many everything full of varieties. The same mountain, absolute knowledge, advaya*-jñāna , tattva-jñāna . If we accept tattva-jñāna from distant place it is Brahman. If you see that tattva-jñāna still nearer, then it is Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61). And when you go directly to the person, just like we are talking face to . . . that is possibility. And that possibility Kṛṣṇa comes to show us. That is indicated by Śukadeva Gosvāmī that: *When Kṛṣṇa was playing with His cowherd boys friend, so Śukadeva Gosvāmī says: "Who are these boys who are playing with Kṛṣṇa, who is the source of brahma*-sukha ?" Brahma-sukhānubhūtyā . These boys are playing with another boy known as Kṛṣṇa. He is the source of brahma-sukhānubhūti . And dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena : those who are devotees, for them He is the Supreme Lord. And māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa : and those who are under the influence of māyā , they are seeing He's an ordinary boy. But whatever He may be, these boys who are playing with Him, sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ (SB 10.12.11). After many, many lives' acquisition of pious activities, now he has got this opportunity to play with this boy, the source of brahma-sukha . Itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā . They are not playing with ordinary child. He is the source of brahma-sukha . This is the statement of Śukadeva Gosvāmī. *So if we come to Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is personally presenting Himself, that is Vedānta . Otherwise, bahūnāṁ janmanām . . . we have come to that point, but if we neglect, then it will take many, many births to come to that point. Because that is the ultimate. Unless we come to that point, to understand Kṛṣṇa, there is still scarcity of knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa says that, "When there is scarcity of knowledge, then I appear." Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). When the scarcity of knowledge is polluted . . . not only scarcity, but it is polluted, glāniḥ . Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glāniḥ . This is dharma , to come to the perfect knowledge. Human being must come to the perfect knowledge, because this is a boon. Not the cats and dogs can understand. Human being. So when there is glāniḥ , they are accepting the preliminary beginning of knowledge as the perfect knowledge, that is glāniḥ . Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca . . . (BG 4.8). These things are there. Dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya : to establish real religious system. Sambhavāmi yuge yuge . What is that real religious system? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). *Dr. Patel: Bhāgavata*-dharma . *Prabhupāda: No, this is real dharma . Bhāgavata*-dharma is real, Bhagavān. Bhāgavata-dharma means in a relationship with Bhagavān. So if you do not know Bhagavān, then what is this knowledge? That is the defect. All dharmas —there may be Christian dharma , Hindu dharma , this dharma , that dharma —ask any one of them, "Do you know Bhagavān?" "Zero. Nirākāra ." Nirākāra means zero. When you come to the right point: zero. No substance. Therefore they have got this prayer, nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe . This is going on. Śūnyavādi and nirviśeṣa , nirākāravādi . We say . . . there are so many points. We say that, "The supreme father," the Christians say. So how the supreme father can be nirākāra ? We have got experience, my father has ākāra . His father has got ākāra , his father has got ākāra . So if you go to the supreme father, now how He is nirākāra ? I may not have seen my great-grandfather but that does not mean he's nirākāra . So I may not have seen God but if God is supreme father, how He can be nirākāra ? Boliye apka isme koi bolne ka ho to boliye? (So, do you have anything to say on this?) Guest (2): Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, he's a person. His father must be person. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is common sense. If son of God, if the son has form, how the father hasn't got form? What do you say? I'm asking you, this English boy. How the father can be formless? Christ says that he's the son of God. Is it not? English devotee: He said he was, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. But he's a person. So how the father is imperson? What kind of father? Dr. Patel: Sir, instead of calling person, we say he's an individual. Person means this body. Prabhupāda: Person means individual. Dr. Patel: Individual. So God is an individual then? Prabhupāda: No, person. God is a person. Individual means person, individual person. Dr. Patel: They may think person means body. *Prabhupāda: Body or no body, that is separate thing. But when you say "individual," He is a person. And it is explained also in the Bhagavad . . . kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta*-cetasām (BG 12.5). Those who are inclined to the impersonal feature . . . God has got that impersonal feature. So they have to undergo more troubles to understand Him. And after going through troublesome business, bahūnāṁ janmanām , many, many births, then he understands, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam . . . here is the person." Everywhere this disease is very prominent, that God is impersonal. Perhaps this is the only movement in the world that's preaching, "No, God is person." Dr. Patel: All Vaiṣṇavas believe in the personal God. This is only one . . . (indistinct) . . . preach. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bring some prasāda . Distribute. (break) Guest (5): . . . camp. Let your group come and stay in our camp. Prabhupāda: No, no, we have already organized. We have also a organized camp. No, I would have saved this expenditure by joining your camp, but . . . *Guest (4): There is no question of expenditure. We welcome you and your institution over there. We have an arrangement for about two hundred tents, and we have got enough food to offer you, quality food, which you won't find in the whole of the Kumbha*-melā. Because originally . . . Prabhupāda: But suppose if we speak in this way, then you'll not agree. (laughter) Real food is finished. Only purīs , kachorīs . . . (laughter) Guest (4): We'll have more real food when you come over there. Prabhupāda: No, if you do not object our preaching like that, then I can go. Guest (4): Yes, definitely. Prabhupāda: Whether your Swāmījī will like that? Guest (4): No, of course. Because actually there is nothing against your preaching. Otherwise, I would not have come. Prabhupāda: No, this is a contradictory. We say God is person, and you say nirākāra . That is the difference. Why God should be nirākāra ? Guest (4): Ultimately, it is the . . . *Prabhupāda: Ultimately, you say nirākāra . We say ultimately ākāra . And that is the difference, gulf of difference. That is going on. We shall worship Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa there, with our ārati , just like we are doing in the temple. Perhaps your Swāmījī will not like this. And as soon as there is some contradiction . . . *Guest (4): No. Our main theme at the Kumbha*-melā is to speak direct to sādhus who come from Himalayas, because mainly since 150 years this institution is serving them at Hardwar and Prayaga. They don't walk down to Ujjain or Nasik. Mainly they come at Hardwar and Allahabad. Prabhupāda: So if you kindly give us a camp. But we shall preach this. Guest (4): You are at liberty. There is no ban on it. Actually, you see we, as we said, we are serving the humanity directly. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That all right. Nice. But sometimes, if somebody differs, that is not very palatable. Guest (4): No, no, Swāmījī. There is no . . . we welcome you there. I told Mangala when she came that we are not preaching a particular thing. We are going there to serve the people who come who are intellectual. Prabhupāda: For spiritual enlightenment. That's nice. Guest (4): Yes. And practically since many, many years our camp is considered as one of the best from all point of view—hygienic arrangements, food quality. We don't use dalda or anything. We have the pure ghee. There are people who give with heart. Prabhupāda: Suppose if you give us one camp, so how many men we can provide there? Guest (4): At least 50 to 100 people we can accommodate. Prabhupāda: No. Guest (4): Or if you want more . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Our men will not be fifty to so much. Suppose for us, if you spare one camp, so how many men we can accommodate there? Because . . . Guest (4): In one tent at least we can accommodate six people. Easily. With a drawing room and two bedrooms. We have the military tents. And just on the bed of the river. Prabhupāda: So how many men you are expecting? Girirāja: Fourteen. Prabhupāda: Fourteen. (break) Dr. Patel: . . . you can serve how many people? Guest (4): Each tent we'll accommodate with all sanitary conditions. We have in one tent, which is quite a big one, six people easily. With a drawing and two beds. Prabhupāda: So at least three camps we shall require. Guest (4): Three or five. Whatever. Swāmījī, number is immaterial. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . So why don't you do that? Dr. Patel: One for yourself and three to us. So four. Guest (4): I can even reserve for your institution six, eight, ten. Number is immaterial. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you take? Dr. Patel: That is very good. Five reserve karo. Apan . . . (Reserve five tents for us . . .) *Guest (4): Number is immaterial. We have the special boats plying from our camp, because what our principle is, our Gurudev, Paramahamsa devji had taught us . . . away from the melā , in seclusion. Now there is a bhāga , what is known as a yushi*-bhāga , and since last two hundred years all the director sādhus , they reside there because it is away from . . . *Prabhupāda: Munshi*-bhāga that is . . . Guest (4): Yushi. Yushi. So as it is away from melā , there is no hustle and bustle of the melā . It's a secluded place. And from there we ply our own boats. We have about six, eight boats that take you for snāna . In the early morning at four o'clock we have the snāna in the Ganges itself near our camp, because . . . Prabhupāda: Confluence, confluence. *Guest (4): On the spot. We are in the bed of the river, and this plot is reserved since last two hundred years for us from the government when the melā comes— Pūrṇa*-kumbha , Ardha-kumbha . And the boats ply from our spot downstream at Prayaga on the saṅgam . That we take them during the day according to the nakṣatra . Prabhupāda: These gentlemen offering, why not take advantage? Guru dāsa: If it's away from the melā there won't be so much preaching there. Guest (4): People will come to you when they know that you are there. There is no need to go. (laughter) Guest (5): You can still have a small place in melā itself. Guest (4): That publicity will go like this. Don't worry about it. When the sun shines nobody says that the sun has risen. It has risen. Guru dāsa: Vedāntists say, but no one else . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. So you take advantage of it. (everyone talking at once) Now is offering, you should . . . so immediately arrange for this. So Thik hai. Hum log ko dijiye kuch camp. (Okay. So please give us a few tents.) Guest (4): I'll telephone today and we'll make the arrangement at least for five to six, seven tents. *Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Then it will be very nice. We are willing to go there. And we must go there. It is Kumbha*-melā. So if you give us five to six camps it will be very nice. Guest (4): Even up to ten. You don't hesitate for the number. Prabhupāda: Thank you. He's so liberal. You are actually Brahman. (laughter) Brahman means unlimited. Guest (4): Virāṭ. Prabhupāda: Virāṭ. Bṛhatyad , bṛnghanatya iti brahman . Not only the largest, but increasing. That is Brahman. Bṛhatya bṛnghanatya . I'm very much thankful to you. So you arrange immediately. To phir iske liye jo kuch karna hai bol dijiye. (Please inform us about any formalities involved.) Guest (4): I will send a message today, and you will let me know the date. They will come and receive you either at the Benares airport or here at Allahabad station. Because it's not far away from Allahabad. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. I was in Allahabad for thirteen years. Guest (4): I know. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This Kumbha*-melā we have every year. Guest (4): First of all, you see, we have taken just near Yamunā bridge. As soon as the pilgrims come from various parts of the country we have got a . . . Prabhupāda: Yamunā bridge, there are two bridges. Guest (4): Just near Yamunā bridge there is an institution which belongs to Bombay, and that institution is reserved for us just to give a shelter first to people who come by rail. Prabhupāda: So take all these notes. We'll save so much money. Guest (4): Transit camp. Prabhupāda: So immediately. Guest (4): I'll come again, don't worry. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Now, distribute prasāda . Guest (4): Actually, you know, Swāmījī, I had stayed over here whenever he used to come. He passed away in 1960. Prabhupāda: Who? Guest (4): Our Swāmījī. He passed away at . . . (indistinct) . . . in 1960, 14th February. And he was very fond of Juhu since 1923, whenever he was coming to Bombay. Prabhupāda: Juhu is very nice, I know. Guest (4): But now the Juhu has lost its charm. I'm talking about 1923 up to '45. And he used to go deep in the sea up to two miles. He used to take us with him. Prabhupāda: That, one saintly person . . . what is his name? Guest (4): He was a Punjabi body. And mostly he resided in Gujarat. Developed five of his institutions. One in Ooty and two on Narmada and Tapti, and one is near Deoghar in Bihar. Prabhupāda: Bihar. Deoghar. Guest (4): Yes. One we have got in Hardwar itself. We have got a nice āśrama at Sapta Sarovara. I'll just show you one of his . . . because Juhu, whenever he was in Bombay he was at Juhu always. (indistinct comments by others) (break) He was residing at M. C. Satwar, you know, our Attorney General. Prabhupāda: He's Sindhi? Guest (4): Punjabi. Dr. Patel: He lived for 130 years. Prabhupāda: He's still living? Dr. Patel: No, he died only five years back. Guest (4): 1960. This must be one of . . . there was a crowd, you know, at M. C. Satwar's hall. M. C. Satwar had invited everybody from the high court, all the judges. So he was just having a chant with them. So "Swāmījī, we would like to hear you, something." He said: "I am an uneducated man. What can I say?" This was in 1956, just four years before he passed away. Then he was thinking what to tell these guys. Was just thinking for five, ten minutes. And then he spoke for two hours, spellbound. Beautiful. He was about 6 foot 4 inches in height. Prabhupāda: Real Punjabi. (laughter) Guest (4): And the color of his skin was as pink as the petal of the rose. He was a dynamic personality also. And the command over the language was superb. Just Your Holiness is quoting the Sanskrit quotations, just like Swami Gangeshvarananda, though he's a blind man. But you . . . he can quote from any chapter, any stanza, any couplet. He's also here at present. He's coming over there. Prabhupāda: No, he's my good friend. Guest (4): Yes. We had a word about you with him long back. Before, Swāmījī, Your Holiness came to India. Prabhupāda: He likes me. (laughter) Guest (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) *Guest (6): She is my daughter*-in-law. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . He's your son? Guest (6): He's my son. He has just come day before from London to . . . Prabhupāda: You live in London? Guest (6): No, he's studying. He's an executive with the German company over there via India, this German firm. And she is my daughter. And since . . . Prabhupāda: Khub sukhi raho. Krishna naam karo. (Everyone be happy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Everyone be happy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our . . . a good family. (break) *Guest (6): So his friend is my friend. (everyone talking at once) Swāmījī says, he gave a good comparison about the bulbs. Some bulbs have forty candles, some have twenty*-five, some a thousand. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jaya . So where is our Guru Mahārāja? Devotee: Guru dāsa Swami? Prabhupāda: He went away? Guest (4): So I'll see them again. Prabhupāda: All right, thank you. (break) Guest (4): We'll arrange for the best that we could. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Thank you very much. Guest (4): Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (break) Ap kidhar ke rehne wale ho? Oh apni bangali. (Where do you live? Oh you are a Bengali.) Guest (7): Na bangali noi, Bengal e chilo. Oi khane ghar. Ekhon ektu . . . (indistinct) . . . jani na ki, ektu treatment nite eshechi ekhane, Ahmedabad e. (No, I am not a Bengali but I used to live in Bengal in my own house. Now I have come to Ahmedabad for some treatment.) Prabhupāda: Bangla besh bhalo bolen. (You can speak Bengali very nicely.) Speaks Bengali very nice. Guest (7): Yes, he lived in Shanti Niketan four years . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So give him shelter. (end) Devotee (1): I have just come from America, and at the universities, lots of times there are many questions concerning evolution, and I was curious about what our position is in terms of artifacts—bones like dinosaur bones and things like that that the scientists say they found. Prabhupāda: Scientists are rascals, those who are following Darwin. What is their theory? *Devotee (1): They maintain that from the oceans came one*-celled animals. Then from these one-celled animals, they developed into fish and then reptiles. And then these reptiles became very big dinosaurs. And they have put together many big museums. For instance, in Washington the Smithsonian Museum has many, many big bones put together, and they date these millions of years ago. *Prabhupāda: So we have got also the same theory. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāna). (break) . . . within water. So where is the difference? We also admit the forms of life begins from the ocean. Then plants. As soon as the water is dried, there are plants, trees. Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati . Sthāvara means the life which cannot move. So the trees, plants, grass, they cannot move. Then insects, then reptiles, then birds, then beast, then human being. In this way the living entity is changing body. So what is the difficulty? Devotee (1): But they say that the human body developed right from these other bodies. In other words . . . Prabhupāda: Evolution, from beast human body has come. Where is the difference? Even there is difference, what is the idea? Devotee (1): Well, they maintain that therefore man was not created by God, but simply by chemicals. Prabhupāda: Rascals! Wherefrom the life came first? Wherefrom the life came from? When you find life in the water, wherefrom this life came? Devotee (1): They say originally it came from chemicals that came together. Prabhupāda: Rascal! Create from chemicals. Otherwise, beat them with shoes in their mouth. "Why you talk nonsense? Create from chemicals, life." (break) What do they say? Devotee (1): They say they're working on it. Prabhupāda: Then be beaten with shoes. When you're successful, then say. Otherwise, I shall beat you with shoes. That's all. That is your punishment. You have not come to the experimental stage, and you are talking, "This is science." Science is experiment and observation. Unless the experiment is practical, practical science . . . it will be accepted as science when the experiment is successful. Not before that. That is scientific method. First of all, observe: "It may be happening like this." But that "maybe" should be confirmed by experiment. Then it is science. Even in colleges there is practical examination. Theoretical and practical. So unless . . . "We are trying." Everyone will say: "I am trying." "I am trying to become millionaire." When you become millionaire, then say that you are millionaire. You are trying for becoming millionaire, and you say, "I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? Huh? Devotee (1): Yes. No one has ever observed the life coming from matter. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just prove that life comes from chemicals. How is that? "I am trying to be millionaire, therefore I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? You are trying to create from chemicals, therefore you are scientist. What's this kind of scientist? Beat them with shoes, that's all. *Guest (1) (Indian man): I have a researcher in our family, and he thinks the theory of evolution is the daśa*-avatāra . Prabhupāda: You can think like that. Your thinking has no value. Guest (1): No, not my thinking. Prabhupāda: Then don't say: "I am thinking." Guest (1): No, I said I have a researcher in our family; he thinks. Prabhupāda: What research? He's a rascal also! *Guest (1): No, but he thinks the daśa*-avatāra . . . Prabhupāda: "He thinks," means he's a rascal. Nothing to be think. It must be from the śāstra . Guest (1): Is there any evidence in śāstra that I could look? Prabhupāda: What is that? *Guest (1): The daśa*-avatāras , that the first was Matsya and then Kūrma and Varāha, and finally . . . Prabhupāda: That is God's pastime. He becomes like this, like that. It is not evolution. Guest (1): Not evolution. Guru dāsa: God is not so morphic. He's not an animal. Just like we're in this room but we don't become part of the room. (break) Śrutaśravā: . . . so clear, but they refuse to accept it 'cause if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śrutaśravā: You make all these things so crystal clear, but they refuse to accept, because if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense. Prabhupāda: Refusal . . . let them refuse, and who cares for them? Guru dāsa: Actually, if they were successful in any experiment they would be out of a job. So they actually want material life, scientists. Prabhupāda: And now what is their science? This is science, that "We are trying"? What is this nonsense science? Do you think this is science? "We are trying." Everyone can say: "I'm trying." Is that science? Then? Any rascal can say that, "I am trying." Is that science? *Amogha*-līlā: I heard that you had quoted a saying that anyone who goes to Laṅkā becomes a Rāvaṇa, and that similarly, when the devotees come to India, they become Rāvaṇa. I wonder if you would explain that or elaborate or explain how we can avoid this sort of thing happening. (break) I'm sorry? Prabhupāda: Ask the leaders. I was talking that in all our other branches, our men manage the cooking and kitchen, and as soon as they come here, they become . . . bara lath saheb (. . . big minister.) That is Rāvaṇa. Why do they not do here? We have to keep some cook who is neither initiated, nor very clean, a smoker, and we have to keep them. (break) In all other branches, the boys and girls, they manage everything. (break) *Amogha*-līlā: . . . follow the regulations more strictly? Prabhupāda: That I have to say again? That means Rāvaṇa. He's asking. I am repeatedly saying that follow, and he's asking. That means he's Rāvaṇa. Why you are inquiring like that? If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? That means Rāvaṇa. If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? (break) Śrutaśravā: . . . one week ago, and in just four days' time the devotees there have distributed over one lakh of Back to Godhead magazines in just four days. Prabhupāda: But you do not do here. Huh? That means Rāvaṇa. (laughter) (break) . . . to become less intelligent, less active, and therefore I say, yāya sei laṅkā sei haya rāvaṇa , "Anyone who comes to Laṅkā, he becomes Rāvaṇa." Guest (1): Their promotion in local language would be very helpful. Prabhupāda: No, in India will purchase English magazine, he knows English. Guest (1): Yes, he knows, but the popularity will be much more in the Hindi and Gujarati and Marathi speaking people, Bengali speaking. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is for you, Indians. But you have no time. You are busy with your daughter's marriage, and you simply advise. Guest (1): I am busy? Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. Every Indian is busy with his own affair. He'll come and advise, that's all. Advise gratis. But he will not do himself. Guest (1): No, but . . . Prabhupāda: No, this is going . . . I have got full experience that Indians, they will come and give some advice, and go away for daughter's marriage. That's all. Guest (1): Well there are various types of Indians, you know. *Prabhupāda: That type of, ninety*-nine percent. *Guru dāsa: Just like ninety*-nine percent of us become lazy when we come to India. Prabhupāda: You'll advise, but you'll never do it. That is going on. *(break) . . . elephants dance, and we see. This is Indian policy. These white elephants, they'll come and dance, and you'll see. And you are busy with your daughter's marriage. That's all. (break) . . . means vairāgya*-vidyā. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga ( CC Madhya 6.254). Nobody can become a bhakta unless he has disgusted with material life. "I shall do this, I shall do that." And he'll never do bhakti-yoga . That's all. This is not possible. (break) Before leaving my family life I wanted to get my all sons and daughters married, but some of them disagreed, some of them . . . my wife disagreed. "Let them go to hell, I don't care. Time is up. Never mind you are married or not married. Then see your own business." (break) . . . I or you, then who will take care of the marriage of your daughter? Suppose you die immediately? Then who will take care? Guest (1): God will give them . . . *Prabhupāda: Then why don't you do that now? God will take care. It is called, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, civil suicide. Civil suicide. Just like if you commit suicide, that is criminal. But this is voluntarily committing suicide: "Now I am dead. Whatever you like, you do." So we have to commit civil suicide if we are actually attached to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya . . . (BG 18.66). That is gṛha-dharma . But Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up that." But that attachment is there. I do not think . . . suppose I die immediately. Who will take care of my daughter? At that time we say: "God." And why not now? Guest (1): That feeling of attachment one has to give up gradually. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we cannot do because the attachment is there. That is the symptom. Guest (1): Saṅkīrtana will help give up the attachment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore wherever you stay, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will help. Thākā ekhana pāiyā . Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, try for the daughter's marriage. That will help. (break) . . . kabhi mithta nahi. (. . . never gets finished.) Guest (1): Civil suicide is a good thought. Prabhupāda: That is the thought only. Oh, Doctor saheb. Dr. Patel: I asked him where you were, and he said that you are on the roof. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Wo kabh mithta nahi. Samundar jo hai na, uska tufan chalega. Koi sochta hai tufan band ho jaye, tab hum nav chalayenge. Wo sambhav hai nahi. (It never gets over. The waves in the sea will keep on coming. If somebody thinks that he will take out his boat only after the waves subside completely then that's not possible.) Guest (1): Prakriti hai, wo to chalega. (That is part of nature, it will go on.) (break) Hmm? I do not know. (break) Dr. Patel: You agreed, huh? . . . (indistinct) . . . is coming. Prabhupāda: I am going within four days. Dr. Patel: You go, find out what you . . . and then communicate with you. Huh? Prabhupāda: No, you asked me to stay at least a few days. Dr. Patel: But you must stay. If you don't stay, you can't stay, I have got no power to keep you tied here. If you will stay, well and good. If you can't even, well, I will try our best to inform you what should be done in four days. Hmm? Prabhupāda: Let God do whatever He likes. Dr. Patel: God will be doing through us. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . sir bhi dukhta hai . . . (indistinct) (. . . I get a headache . . . (indistinct) . . .) . . . blood pressure. Dr. Patel: But whatever you do . . . (laughs) You do not know . . . Prabhupāda: No, whatever is there is there. Let it remain. They also require some shelter. Dr. Patel: We want to find out . . . (indistinct) . . . why you are getting swelling or whether weakness of the heart. There are various reasons why did you get the swelling of the leg, you know. We must find out by biochemical examination of the internal fluids, such as the blood, urine and stool, and put you on the right information. Now if you follow or not is your own sweet will, sir. *Prabhupāda: Nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ , bālasya neha pitarau śaraṇaṁ nṛsiṁha. Na ārtasya ca agadam. Tāvad vibho tanu*-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām (SB 7.9.19). If Kṛṣṇa neglects somebody, then these things will not help. Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa never neglects anybody. You have told once so. It is we, our own actions which we, I mean, forget. We get. If you walk too much then you get tired. If you sit down you do not. If you walk, then there is swelling of the leg, sir. Eh? So it is not Kṛṣṇa. I mean, this is your own saying, eh? I am not manufacturing my own arguments. Prabhupāda: No, the śāstra says, nārtasya cāga . . . there is no guarantee. But we may try, but there is no guarantee. Dr. Patel: This is the play of māyā , that we all know. But so long as we are in māyā we have to play our part, haven't we? Prabhupāda: But it is supposition, the pathologist. Dr. Patel: No, I am going to bring. That was myself. Prabhupāda: He'll take blood, he'll take this, he'll take that. So that is another trouble. (chuckles) Dr. Patel: No, no, but why should you have a minus on blood? Why should you have minus, and whose blood is it? This is your own argument, sir, I am very sorry. Prabhupāda: No, no . . . Dr. Patel: Nothing is ours. The body is not ours. Prabhupāda: When you take blood, there is . . . Dr. Patel: Not of that . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, not that, but I feel . . . Dr. Patel: How you feel? You are a soul! The body feels; you do not feel. Now we are talking about the philosophy. Prabhupāda: I am not a liberated person. Dr. Patel: No, but . . . you are liberated soul, we are following you. There are many others, sir, otherwise we would not have come behind you. So, sir, that is not right. And I think I have got a right to prevail upon you. Have I or have I not? Tell me that, or I'll run away back again. (break) . . . it's not full. Who knows? We may be liberated in past birth. That is how I come. Prabhupāda: That's fine. That's your process. You are trying to do something for the disease. Dr. Patel: You see, we must know exactly what is happening. After all, science is the same with the Āyurvedic or allopathic or any. Science is, I mean, advancement of man's evolution of the man's understanding about things. Prabhupāda: I say, but somebody says that . . . what is the medicine? I take some Āyurvedic medicine. Dr. Patel: No, you do take. We don't say no. You don't take any medicine, we know exactly where you stand, as the modern science explains us. (break) Well, he may not tell us truth immediately, but that is his aim. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Now I am feeling some dizziness. Dr. Patel: Sit down. You sit down. Prabhupāda: Where is that sitting place? Dr. Patel: Niche jayenge ab hum. (We will go downstairs now.) Go down. (break) Prabhupāda: Harer nāma eva kevalam , kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21). (break) . . . is a big tank of Calcutta Gas Company. That looks like this. Dr. Patel: We have got also tank like this in Bombay. We have also gas company tanks. It's in . . . (indistinct) . . . we have bigger tanks here of the petroleum companies. Huge tanks, petroleum tanks. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: When I was in Northern Ireland preaching, they blew it up, the gas tank, by bombs. They blew the whole gas tank up. Prabhupāda: Where? Guru dāsa: In Northern Ireland, Belfast. Dr. Patel: Those terrorists. Prabhupāda: (referring to seat) It was here. Who has taken? Guru dāsa: It is coming now. Āsana , āsana . (break) Prabhupāda: The others, others is not. Devotee (2): The other seat got taken away, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for cleaning. For making it cleaner. Devotee (1): We can get mattresses from your room and a pillow if you'd like to sit down. Prabhupāda: No, no, this is all right. (break) Dr. Patel: Only tired feel? (break) . . . or may be due to poverty of heart action, or it may be due to some inaction on the part of the kidney or some collection of some obnoxious substances in the blood. That is why we must have an analysis done, so for a right understanding, we can advise you what to do. Anyone can write analysis, acidity and . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Now, everything is less. Dr. Patel: Then you stay here. And you're completely home, without anything. You are not prepared to . . . this is . . . Prabhupāda: As soon as this building is, I will take. Dr. Patel: We listen to you, but you don't listen. That is the misfortune of ours. Huh? Prabhupāda: Actually, I have got so many engagements. Actually, I have got engagement in Bhubaneswar . . . Dr. Patel: And you are going to Bhubaneswar after fifteen days, no? Prabhupāda: . . . Calcutta, in Allahabad, then Māyāpur, then Vṛndāvana, then Bombay. Dr. Patel: So to make you fit to go round, you must do something. It's very logical. Guru dāsa: "Penny wise, pound foolish." Dr. Patel: So let pound be wise for the penny foolish. If you do in right path then you may not break down like . . . (indistinct) . . . getting all this trouble. (break) . . . at least for four, five days. We don't want any more. In one days we will find out what to . . . how to . . . this will be cured. I don't mean medicine, but even advice, food, this, that, other things. If you get rid of the medicine, well, all medicines are, I mean, synthetics. They are not produced from animals. Many of them. (break) Prabhupāda: Harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). (break) . . . that sound all the time. (sounds of birds) Girirāja: Do they have many birds in Bhubaneswar? Are there many birds in Bhubaneswar? Prabhupāda: Wherever there are nice trees, there will be birds. Guru dāsa: Girirāja is asking, he thinks there's more birds in Bombay than in Bhubaneswar. Girirāja Prabhu is stating there is more birds in Bombay. Dr. Patel: There are more crows in Bombay than any other place. (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, no. They are also birds. Dr. Patel: There are very more filthier, for the crows, to clean. Guru dāsa: So Prabhupāda should go, then. Dr. Patel: No, you see, if the good people is there, up there, you know the filth disappears. Guru dāsa: That's what the śāstra says. The sun dries up urine in a filthy place. Dr. Patel: So he must be here. Another argument, and he will answer. Guru dāsa: Yes, but there is also urine in Bhubaneswar. Dr. Patel: In Bhubaneswar you are going to have any plan for making a temple? Prabhupāda: What is my plan, that is always there, that is to print books and construct temples. Throughout the whole world this plan is going on: fifty percent construction, fifty percent printing books. Whatever I get money, I give him. That's all. I am the same beggar, either it comes ten lakhs or fifty lakhs , ten crores . Dr. Patel: You are exhibiting this body to be "I". Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam akledyo 'śoṣya eva ca (BG 2.24). Prabhupāda: No, no, that is different. Dr. Patel: You come down to body consciousness and talk to us. We want you to talk from higher consciousness. Prabhupāda: I have no higher consciousness. Dr. Patel: Then talk from the lower consciousness, still lower. Prabhupāda: Why should I? Dr. Patel: Let us go out and make a business in the stock market. Prabhupāda: I am doing business. I am selling books. (laughter) Dr. Patel: Stock exchange. Why not? It is very easy. Prabhupāda: I am selling books. Dr. Patel: Why not a Wall Street operation? It is very easy. Prabhupāda: They are all engaged in doing business. Dr. Patel: Have you wanted a businessman to come? Prabhupāda: I am doing business. Guest (3): Prabhupada ke mafik duniya me koi businessman hai? (Is there any businessman like Prabhupāda in the world?) *Dr. Patel: Ye to baniya hai. Baniya . . . (He is a businessman. A businessman) is a sweet*-oil tongued fellow. Guest(3): Prabhupāda itna bada businessman hai. World ka sab businessman fail ho gaya. (Prabhupāda is such a big businessman that all businessmen of the world have failed before him.) Dr. Patel: We can still make a bigger business in Wall Street. Have a Wall Street here in Bombay and . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: You are criticizing the bāniyās . The bāniyās criticize the doctor. (laughter) Dr. Patel: And doctor criticizes you. Prabhupāda: Bāniyās say, they say, nal jal jocchuri teen niye daktari, (one tap, a little water and cheating, make up a quack doctor.) Dr. Patel: Nal jal . . .? Prabhupāda: Jocchuri . Dr. Patel: Jocchuri means? *Prabhupāda: Cheating. Suniye na. Teen chiz chahiye unko. Ek nal chahiye aur pani, lal*-nil pani . . . (Just listen. Three things are needed. One tap, red or blue coloured water . . .) Or all cheating words. Dr. Patel: But according to our śāstra , it is so. Prabhupāda: No, no, this is according to bāniyā , the doctor is calculated . . . Dr. Patel: Bāniyā is right in that way. Bāniyā is right. Prabhupāda: Humara Bangla desh me bolta hai je nal jal jocchuri, teen niye daktari. (In Bengal, they say that three things are needed to become a quack doctor, one tap, little water and cheating words.) Dr. Patel: In Bengali. Prabhupāda: In Bengali village there are many quacks. You know that. Everywhere. (laughter) So what their business? Nal jal jocchuri teen niye daktari. (One tap, a little water and cheating make up a quack doctor.) *Dr. Patel: In Mahābhārata , in Vidura*-nīti , Vidura has mentioned that a doctor should not be trusted and should not be allowed to come in the house. I am reading presently that part of Mahābhārata . Why? Because they must be right from the beginning, in olden times also they must be of the same type. Prabhupāda: Another place, Vaiṣṇava says, either he is businessman or doctor, anyone, they are all madmen. *Jaise koi admi ko bhoot pakad leta hai. (Just like a person who is haunted by a ghost.) Ghostly*-haunted. And he talks all nonsense. Similarly, anyone who is in the material condition, he is a ghostly haunted man. So he can talk anything, all nonsense. Piśācī pāile yena . . . this is applicable to everyone. Anyone who has got this material body, he's ghostly-haunted. Therefore we are explaining that verse, that first treatment is how to get out of the clutches of this ghost which has attacked everyone. So ghostly haunted man, he's himself a victim of the ghost. How he can treat other men? He's also haunted by the ghost. This is the position. Even one may say: "I am haunted by a better ghost." That may be, but every one of us ghostly haunted. And śāstra says this is treatment: tapasya . Tapo divyaṁ putrakā , yasmād sattvaṁ śuddhyed (SB 5.5.1). Sattva. Sattva, our existence, is polluted. The first business . . . (break) . . . the skin and bone. The skin and bone will continue so long I am in the material condition of life, either bird's skin . . . just like who was talking of evolution? Who was? (indistinct answer by devotees) Yes. This disease of skin and bone will continue. Because the spirit soul is not the bone and skin. The Darwin's theory, he is putting that the bone is changing. The bone is not changing. You get different bones in different life. I am changing my position. I am going from one apartment to another apartment. The apartment not changing; I am changing apartment. That is the difference between Darwin's theory and our theory. They are thinking the apartment is becoming another apartment. No. The apartments are already there. I am entering different apartments as I can pay for it. That is karma . According to my karma , I am sometimes residing in one apartment, in another apartment. This is going on. The Darwin's theory, the apartment is changing. That's not the fact. Fact is I am living entity. Tathā dehān . . . Kṛṣṇa also says, tathā dehāntara . Apartment antara . The spirit soul is the same. There is no change. That is spirit always, but according to his karma , he is going from this apartment, or this body, tathā dehān . . . that is the main point with the modern science and our Vedic knowledge. That is the main difference. They have no idea of the existence of the soul, and therefore say: "We are trying to make. We are trying to make." This rascaldom is going on. You cannot make soul. That is not possible. You cannot do anything. You cannot make even the body, what to speak of the soul. This is . . . Dr. Patel: Modern scientists don't say that we can make the soul. Soul is permanent in every man. Prabhupāda: No, the rascals say: "We can create." So that rascal, number of that rascal is more. They are saying, bluffing that, "Now we shall create chemicals. We are trying." This is going on. Just this morning he was saying. Dr. Patel: It is the theory of these people, I think, that . . . Guest (4): Communists. Dr. Patel: Communists. Prabhupāda: That means rascalism. Not a single soul has been created till now and these rascals are claiming that they are going . . . and they are scientists. We have to accept them as scientists. Just see. This is . . . not only now. One gentleman, one big doctor, chemist, he has got Nobel Prize, he came to California, and our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, he was in the also in the university, he's also doctor and chemist. So he was speaking on the chemical evolution. So he's my student, he challenged him that, "If I give you chemicals, can you prepare life?" "That I cannot say." Dr. Patel: Even a living cell of life . . . Prabhupāda: No, it was meeting. When Svarūpa Dāmodara challenged him that, "Suppose I give you the chemicals, right chemicals. Can you prepare a life?" Then he said: "That I cannot say." Why? Why do you say nonsense? Dr. Patel: Because their definition of life is very meager. They say that life is a chemical imbalance, a state of chemical imbalance. That is wrong. Life is something higher than . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore these chemists—they are predominating—so how it is possible to take their version? (greets someone) Aiye. Baithiye. (Please come. Take your seat.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (break) . . . a simple version of Vaiṣṇava: Jaya . Wherefrom you are coming? Devotee (2): From London. Prabhupāda: Oh. You are Englishman? Devotee (2): Yes. English. Prabhupāda: Stay here. We want some Englishmen. (laughter) No. We want Englishmen, Australian, Canadian, because they have no visa problem. Dr. Patel: American will have no visa problem very soon. Guru dāsa: Why? Dr. Patel: There is no question why. We'll understand it. Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. So the visa problem is a great problem for us, because in India for conducting our movement, we have to import the white men. Our Indians, they are not joining. So that is a great problem for me. They have to come, and they have to go again. And each time coming and going, ten thousand rupees. And that is happening at least one hundred cases every year. Ten thousand, hundred times, just imagine. This is my economic problem. Therefore I'm asking, "If you are Englishman, please stay." Because here, in India, they will see that, "The white man dancing, let us see." They will never join. They are busy with their own affairs. They will advise, "Do this, do that," but they will never come. This is my position. Practical. Therefore I'm begging the Englishmen, the Canadians, the Australians, "Please come and stay." Because huge establishment, who will manage? I am managing with them, but there is economic question. For each person I have to spend ten thousand rupees at least, and such hundred case . . . Devotee: One million. Prabhupāda: This is the position. The Indians are not interested. They are not interested. Dr. Patel: You are firing everyone, so they run away. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What can be done? This is real position. Dr. Patel: Only I am a fool, not running away. (laughter) He says, Prabhupāda, "You rascals . . ." Prabhupāda: Everyone may be a fool, but if he continues to remain a fool, that is very bad. (laughter) Dr. Patel: A fool is a fool always. He cannot change his habits . . . *Prabhupāda: More or less every one of us, we are fool, mūḍha . Kṛṣṇa has stated mūḍha , mūḍha . Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). He has chastised like anything. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān (BG 16.19). So anyone who's not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is within these categories: duṣkṛtina , narādhama , mūḍha, māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna , āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ . This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is Indian movement, but na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ . They are not taking seriously. That is the position. It is our movement. Kṛṣṇa came in India, and because India is so glorified place, puṇya-bhūmi, even the demigods, they desire. Not India; *this planet, Bhārata*-varṣa. Formerly, the whole Bhārata-varṣa means whole planet. Anyway, for the time it is now minimized. So it is not ordinary land. So our men, they are not interested in such great movement. How much regrettable it is. And who are they? Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). If you speak the truth, then you take the quotation of Kṛṣṇa. Now every Indian should take part in this great movement. Every Indian. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. *It is para*-upakāra . India's business is para-upakāra . India's business is not exploitation. That is Indian. And para-upakāra means not that daridra-nārāyaṇa bhojana . No. Para-upakāra means to give him knowledge, for want of which he is suffering. That is real . . . *This is his real suffering. He's part and parcel of God. Qualitatively, he's as good as God, but he's suffering. Why he's suffering? Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). He has come to this material world, prakṛti , and . . . or mental concoction, he's creating his plan and struggling for existence. This is real suffering. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save him from real suffering. That Indians should take very seriously and join this movement. And para-upakāra , people need it all over the world. Otherwise, why these young boys, they have joined me? They are finding something relief by this movement. Otherwise, what business he has got to join with an Indian, poor Indian? I went to their country with forty rupees, that's all. So they are finding something relief. And actually it is relief. So our Indians are not interested. India is supposed to be the . . . what is called? Benefactor, or . . .? *Dr. Patel: Deva*-bhūmi , deva-bhūmi . Prabhupāda: Yes. But this knowledge is here. Huh? Dr. Patel: So they came, and we are there in the knowledge already. Apan mandir me jayenge? (Are we going to the temple?) Prabhupāda: Time ho gaya kya? (Is it time to go?) You can sit down here? No? Girirāja: I feel this is important. *Prabhupāda: All right. So, sab bharata*-varshi, young men, jitne hai, sabhi movement ko lijiye seriously. (So all young Indians should take this movement seriously.) It is not ordinary movement. Ye cheating movement nahi hai. (This is not a cheating movement.) This is real movement. Kṛṣṇa, what Kṛṣṇa is speaking, what Caitanya Mahāprabhu is speaking, that is not cheating. That is real solution of the problem. So we have taken the business of Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So every intelligent person, intelligent young man . . . now we have got . . . we have got everywhere, but especially now in Bombay—it is important city—we have constructed this. We can keep at least five hundred, six hundred men in these buildings. But who is coming? Nobody's coming. Dr. Patel: If they all come, then it will be difficult for you. *Prabhupāda: Then let them come first of all. (laughter) There is no "if." There is sufficient place. Come. But nobody's coming. They want to see, "Let these white men come and we see." That's all. "We see the fun." This is going on. They are coming. They are disgusted, but we are not disgusted. That is the difficulty. Therefore I was speaking to this boy, "You are Englishman. You have come." It's a problem now in Māyāpur, here. And the government is after them as soon as three months pass, "Get out, get out, get out, get out." Then how shall I conduct my business, a big, big establishment? This is another problem. But Kṛṣṇa is doing His own business. But practically seeing. This is India's business. Bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). Manuṣya-janma , not the cats and dogs, but those who have taken the human form. It is their business. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra , janma sārthaka . . . first of all, make your life successful by understanding the philosophy. Then, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra , preach this philosophy all over the world. That is para-upakāra . So actually that is being done. They understand; they are understanding this philosophy. There is struggle now in foreign countries. There is opposition now. Hmm? Who will explain what is the opposition? Girirāja: Today we just got a new package from New York from this boy. And some of the parents were charging that we were kidnapping and mentally imprisoning their children by making them devotees. Because from their point of view their children were lost to our movement. So . . . Prabhupāda: He's a lost child. His father and mother came to me, and mother was crying. I said: "So take your son." And the son will not go. (laughter) Dr. Patel: You are washing away their brains. Prabhupāda: (laughing) So they are charging like that. What is the new charge? Huh? Śrutaśravā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are saying "mind control." Prabhupāda: (laughing) "Mind control." Yes. *Śrutaśravā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, so many . . . all the big scholars in America, all the big famous scholars, they have put together one petition saying how authorized our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement are. And they are willing to come forward now. If any time they want some papers in the courtroom to show how bona fide our movement is, how we are actually not brainwashers and mind*-controlled, there are these scholars in America, they have pledged their support. Girirāja: There was a meeting of four big scholars at Harvard University—it's like the Oxford of America. And one famous theologian named Cox . . . Prabhupāda: Harvey Cox? Girirāja: Yes, and Kīrtanānanda Swami. His books are very famous. And they have brought up this issue of freedom of religion, that this is a bona fide religious movement and we should have freedom to worship. Then there's also a letter from a member of the World Fellowship of Religion, and he is also saying that he takes this very seriously and very grave, that such a bona fide movement is not being allowed to practice their religion freely. And then there's one, I think, Professor Sharma at one American University, and he is . . . Prabhupāda: Sharma or Sukla? *Girirāja: No, another one. Not Sukla. And this Sharma is saying that he has personal experience that this is a bona fide movement, and that the American public in general may not know, but A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is one of the renowned writers of translations of Vedic translations and commentaries of Vedic literature. (break) And then Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja is going with . . . a Swami? Chandra Swami, some Indian svāmī in America. But he's going with Ādi-keśava Mahārāja to meet the new President of the United States on January 27th. Prabhupāda: He's going to see? *Girirāja: Yes, Jimmy Carter. On January 20th he will become the next President. So Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja and this one Indian sannyāsī , they are going to make a representation to the new President. Prabhupāda: Who is that Indian svāmī ? Śrutaśravā: His name is Chandra Swami. Prabhupāda: Chandra Swami? So why . . .? Guest (4): He's a young man. Prabhupāda: He must be Māyāvādī. Girirāja: I'm sure he is. Prabhupāda: He's taking advantage of this. He's a Māyāvādī. Guest (4): He's a man who is following tantric . Prabhupāda: So what is this nonsense? This should not be . . . he should not accompany. He's taking advantage of it. Guest (4): He's also directly associated with the Prime Minister, this young man, Chandra Swami. Dr. Patel: The Prime Minister is the greatest Māyāvādī. *Prabhupāda: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna (BG 7.15). Māyāvādī means māyā has taken his knowledge. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . Ninety-nine percent they are Māyāvādīs. Guest (4): Swāmījī, what about those missionaries who are working in India who are coming from abroad, and they are actually exploiting? If they put a charge against our institution, well, we can definitely say that we are motivating the intellect to take into the higher stage of life. Here the missionaries who come, they go in the backward areas, and those who are not learned, those who are practically uneducated . . . I mean, their mission is to convert them in Christianity. You see, that charge is rather more grave than the particular one which they have leveled against us. You see, we can put that argument, isn't it? How many Hindus are converted into Christianity? We are not converting them, we are just . . . *Prabhupāda: Our case is not that we are going to convert one Hindu to Christian, or Christian to Hindu. There is no meaning. Our is, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Even if you are Hindu, even you are Muslim, you are Christian, kick it out. That is our movement. We do not advocate that "You are Christian; you become Hindu." Or "You are Hindu; you become . . ." They are taking like that. But our movement is not that. Guest (4): That's what I say. *Prabhupāda: Our movement is, either you are Hindu, either you are Muslim, either you are Christian, you kick out all this. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya . Simply you become surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, or God. This is our . . . and anyone who can do that, he is first-class religious. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Adhokṣaja. God's name is Adhokṣaja. You cannot see Him beyond your material perception. So if you are trained up to surrender to God, then you are religious. We do not say that you become Hindu or Muslim or Christian or this or that. We do not say so. Dr. Patel: But all Christians, if they truly are . . . I mean Hindus, that Christ . . . Prabhupāda: No, either he become Hindus, that does not mean the Hindus are perfect. We do not mean that. Even if he becomes Hindu, what is the benefit? No benefit. Dr. Patel: No. Even he becomes a Christian, there is no benefit. *Prabhupāda: I say any religious stamp, material, there is no benefit. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). You have to give up all these designations. And bhakti , love of Godhead, or service to God, begins when you are relieved from these designations. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When becoming God conscious you become completely purified, then your devotional life begins. And so long you are entangled with this designation, there is no question of devotional service. Either you Hindu or Muslim or Christian, it doesn't matter. So our business is not that, that we convert a Hindu to a Christian or a Christian to a Hindu. That is not our business. They are thinking, because we dress like that, with tilaka , with māla , they think "Hindu." But it's not our business to convert the Christians to become Hindus, as all other missionaries, they are doing. They are trying to increasing the number of Christian or Hindus. So our . . . there is no question of increasing. It is very difficult to accept. *Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy. Out of millions and millions of persons, one becomes perfect. And out of millions of perfect, one may understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the version of Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy that everyone, each one will become Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. But by the grace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , this is helping. Otherwise, it is very difficult task. Very difficult. It is recommended in the śāstra , kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply the Kali-yuga, kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ (SB 12.3.51). This is the version of Śukadeva Gosvāmī. He described the faulty ocean of this Kali-yuga, and at last he encouraged that "Mahārāja, there is one opportunity in this age." Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ , very great opportunity. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya : simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet , he becomes liberated and he goes back to home. This opportunity we are preaching. That's all. Otherwise, to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. This opportunity, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya . And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also recommends, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalaṁ kalau nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21). Otherwise, in this age, very difficult. (break) *Guest (4): During the Kumbha*-melā we are having our anna-kṣetra to serve the direct sādhus. We already started our camp on 21st December to last after 10th of February. If Mahārāja and all other devotees, they can definitely offer free arrangements over there because we have got the best camp. We have got the best camp. Prabhupāda: So why should we spend for our camp? (laughter) Guest (4): We are just on the bed of the river, far away from the melā , which is about three, four . . . we have our āśramas at various places, you know. Prabhupāda: What is this philosophy? Guest (4): What is? Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy? Guest (4): Philosophy is bhajana , Ādi Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: But whether you recognize Kṛṣṇa . . . Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, he was our guru . We have published a book from the Calcutta University, so just take your remise. Leave the book for you. Prabhupāda: Oh, this is for me? Baithiye, baithiye. Thoda Vedānta philosophy par charcha kijiye. (Please sit, please sit. Let us have a small discussion on Vedānta philosophy.) Let us discuss. What is Vedānta philosophy? Let us discuss something. You belong to this camp, so what is Vedānta ? Guest (4): Ādi Śaṅkarācārya's preaching, actually defining God as what he thought. Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning? Everyone can think of God according to his whims. You say: "As he thought." That is not standard. Guest (4): So, what he describes . . . Prabhupāda: No, first of all, let us . . . whether if you think of God in your own way, is that valid or not? Guest (4): Because he has given a thought to it, you know. He has thought about it. *Prabhupāda: Anything might be the first*-class thought, but do you think that any man can think of God and create God? Do you think it is all right? Guest (4): Well, we are guided by those who have given a thought to it and who have meditated actually. Prabhupāda: You said that, "As he thought." Guest (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: So God is unlimited and you are limited. So how you can think of God? Guest (4): You see, I'll just quote one of his stanzas which reveal . . . Prabhupāda: I am talking . . . Guest (4): I understand your point of view, but I'm just, to Your Holiness, in the last stanza of his advaita philosophy, he says, ahaṁ nirvikalpo nirākāra rūpa vibhur apya sarvatra sarvendriyāṇi sadame sama . . . Prabhupāda: Who says " aham "? Guest (4): Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: That means a person is thinking of God. So that is my point, whether an individual person can think of God and ascertain that "Here is God." Guest (4): He comes to that particular conclusion, though, Your Holiness, he comes . . . he says that ahaṁ nirvikalpa nirākāra rūpa . . . Prabhupāda: So nirākāra . . . if you are speaking, then how he can become nirākāra ? Guest (4): He actually defines what prevails in the universe, what is that element which governs us. Prabhupāda: Let us just discuss from the point. As you say that, "I think" and "I speak," so when you speak, when you think, whether you are nirākāra or ākāra. Guest (4): He defines, ultimately, after all thinking . . . Prabhupāda: I am asking you. Guest (4): He has come to that conclusion. Prabhupāda: I'm asking you that when you think, when you . . . what is that other thing? Speak. So can anybody who is nirākāra , he can think and speak? Is there any experience? So what is the use of talking like that? Dr. Patel: Thinking is done by the mind, and mind is not soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. So, no, whatever it may be. If I think, if I speak, I am ākāra ; I'm not nirākāra . And that is for everyone. This is contra . . . Guest (4): What is that "everyone"? Prabhupāda: What it may be. First come to the platform of understanding. As soon as I think, I speak, this speaking, I'm thinking, is not coming from nirākāra. Guest (4): But what is that "I"? Prabhupāda: "I" means . . . what do you mean by "I"? I am person, you are person. When I say "I say," you say that we are person. So how you can say nirākāra ? It must be common knowledge. When I say "I speak," that is not nirākāra . How it can be nirākāra ? It is contradictory. Guest (4): It is not contradictory, but . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it is contradictory. Unless you have got a personality, you cannot speak, you cannot think. So how it is nirākāra ? That is my first point. Kṛṣṇa says " aham ." He is person. We worship Kṛṣṇa as person. He says, aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). That " aham ," He's person. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa as person because He says, aham ādir hi devānām . *He's person. Kṛṣṇa never said that, "I am nirākāra ." Where He has said? Can you quote any verse? When He says nirākāra , He says like this: mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam (BG 9.4). Mayā , "by Me." Tatam idaṁ sarvam , "everywhere, by My energy." Just like the sun-god. The sun-god is within the sun globe. His bodily luster is coming. The sun*-god can say: "The sunshine is my bodily exposition." That is reasonable. Just like a big light, it has got exposition. Similarly . . . and that is confirmed in the śāstra : yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (BS 5.40). Yasya , the person. *So when Kṛṣṇa said, mayā tatam idam , mayā means, "I am there." But "I" is existing. That "I", person, is existing. Just like if I say that "It is I who has expanded. I am expanded all over the world by this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement," that's a fact. But that does not mean I am not a person. If I say that, "I am . . . this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means I am, I am spread by spreading this movement," that's a fact. But does it mean that I am imperson? That is, Kṛṣṇa says: mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta*-mūrtinā. Avyakta . So the same example we can give that in all my branches, 110 branches, they worship me as their guru. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4): "Everything is existing on My management." Nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ : "But I am not there." It is a fact. All these 110 branches, they are going on under my direction, but not that I am present everywhere. But that does not mean I am not a person. So the supreme, the supreme manager, the supreme controller, how He can be nirākāra ? That is my first question. Dr. Patel: He means to say, sir, that the māyākāra is not there. But the divyākāra is there, as we say. Let us understand him. Prabhupāda: No, He . . . nirākāra is there. So far His management power is going on, that is nirākāra . But that nirākāra does not mean that I am also nirākāra . That is the defect. The Supreme Person, it is confirmed by the śāstra . The Absolute Truth is person ultimately. *So those who are simply captivated by the Brahman, nirākāra , they are in the . . . just in the beginning of knowledge. Their knowledge is not perfect. That is not Vedānta . That is knowledge, but it is not anta. And Vedānta means the ultimate knowledge. And that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). If one does not know Kṛṣṇa, he's not a Vedāntist. That is my point. He does not know what is Vedānta . The veda-anta means Kṛṣṇa. Anta means the last word. The last word is brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate . Bhagavān. Unless one goes to the Supreme Lord Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, he's not a Vedāntist. That is my point. Veda means knowledge. Dr. Patel: Sir, Śaṅkarācārya also said, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindam . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. One who says . . . we are studying from our common sense. Veda means knowledge, and anta means the last. And Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). So unless you know Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of Vedānta . There may be Veda . . . Guest (4): Knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Hah, knowledge. But that is not the ultimate knowledge. The ultimate knowledge will come when you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā : bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Therefore all these so-called Vedāntists, they will have to wait for many millions of years to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the position. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante . And if he's actually in knowledge, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate . That is the sign. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is wanted. So Vedāntist, so-called Vedāntist, we do not approve them because they have not come to the ultimate point of knowledge. This is clear. Veda means knowledge; *anta , anta means the last point. So unless you come to that last point of knowledge, that is not Vedānta . That may be Veda, but it is not Vedānta . Vedānta means māṁ prapadyate . Now, whether you approve these statements? Vedānta means to know Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedānta*-kṛd vedānta-vid ca aham . Dr. Patel: "I am the main meaning of the *Vedas* ." Prabhupāda: Yes, He is the . . . so He can speak what is Vedānta . And unless one accepts this Vedānta , he's not a Vedāntist. Therefore some of our Vaiṣṇava friends, they have given me this title, Bhaktivedanta. In 1947, something, they, purposefully, they gave me the title that Vedānta means bhakti . "So you take this title, 'Bhaktivedanta.' " And we are preaching this Vedānta , that the ultimate platform of Veda , knowledge, is to understand Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). So He's person; *He's speaking. So not that . . . the Māyāvādīs, they take that paratattva is the nirākāra*-brahman . But that is not paratattva . Here the person says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya . So if you have to accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme authority, then Vedānta means, He says also, to know Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, it is not anta. It may be middle, it may be beginning, but not anta . Dr. Patel: Sir, Śaṅkarācārya has made so many obstructs for this bhakti . And I mean to follow it . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, I'm talking of Kṛṣṇa. There are many other talkers. We are concerned because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. That's all. That is our philosophy. We may be fools and rascals, doesn't matter. But we accept what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all. Like a child, he's a child, he may be a fool. But when the father says: "My dear child, this is called microphone," and if the child says: "This is microphone," that is correct, because he takes the word of the father, who knows things. He may be child. So our business is like that. We don't claim ourself to be very learned, very advanced. We are fools and rascals. (break) *"How can I become guru ?" one may say: "I am not so learned, I am not so . . ." "No, no, you haven't got to bother. Still you can become guru ." "How?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "If you simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said, then you become guru ." That's all. So our business is that. We are guru not that because we are very learned, so-called Vedāntist. No. We are lowest of the lowest. But we are faithful to the words of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We have no other business. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has ordered, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bās . Very easy. And that is being effective. Now because I am carrying these words of Kṛṣṇa throughout the whole world, perhaps I have done the best service than the combined so much Vedāntists. All the Vedāntists of India could not do that. That's a fact. How it has become possible? Because we are simply speaking what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. That's all. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa . . . that's all. I do not claim that I am Sanskrit scholar, I am this big man, that man. No. Whatever books I have written, only about this—Kṛṣṇa. *In our book in every page you will find Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa. My Guru Mahārāja, if we used to write some article, so we wanted to show him how it is written. So he was very busy. So somebody would read, and Guru Mahārāja would say: "How many times he has said 'Kṛṣṇa'?" (laughter) If he finds that in every page there is "Kṛṣṇa," it is all right. That's all. (laughter) So we are making Vedāntist, "How many times he chants Kṛṣṇa?" If he chants always Kṛṣṇa, yes, he's Vedāntist. That's all. Bās . Because śāstra says, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). That is being effective. These boys, their forefathers or their father, grandfather, never knew what is Kṛṣṇa. But kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet . That is actually fact. So unless there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no question of Vedānta . That is my point. Ācchā . Jayenge . . . udhar nahi jana. (We shall go . . . but not there.) Dr. Patel: Zyada nahi bolne ka. (We should not say too much.) Prabhupāda: Nahi, Krishna naam to bolna hi hai. (No, we have to glorify Kṛṣṇa's holy name.) Dr. Patel: Krishna bolo magar gussa mat karo. (Take Kṛṣṇa's name but don't get angry.) Prabhupāda: Kirtaniyah sada harih. Krishna ka naam sab samay bolo. Ta aap log hum log ko thoda sahay kjiye Krishna naam prachar karne ke liye. ( Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ . Kṛṣṇa's name should be taken continuously. So all of you can kindly help me in spreading the holy name of Kṛṣṇa.) That is real Vedānta . And the Vedānta says also . . . if you actually read Vedānta , what is the beginning of Vedānta ? Boliye? (Tell me?) What is the beginning? Dr. Patel: Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Prabhupāda: This is not Vedānta . This is *Īśopaniṣad*. Devotee: Janmādy asya yataḥ . *Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This is Vedānta . Yes. That is Vedānta , Brahma*-sūtra . This is Vedānta . So this life is meant for Vedānta . Athāto brahma jijñāsā . And what is Brahman? Janmādy asya yataḥ . Brahman means the Supreme Soul of everything. And Kṛṣṇa replies, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Then Vedānta starts. I'm inquiring what is the ultimate source of everything, and here is the answer. If you don't believe, that is another thing. You go on talking like anything. That is another thing. But answer is there. Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So we have to go to such mahātmā who knows vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti . Then it will be all right. But if we want to waste time, that is another thing. *So I am very glad to see you. So I wish that you may spread real Vedānta . That is essence of Vedas . Vedānta means essence of Vedas . Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Light is . . . of course there is light in the sunshine and there is light in the sun globe, but the source of light is coming from the sun*-god. Just like electric bulb, thousand power. So the illumination is also light, and the source of illumination, the bulb, that is also light. And what is that? Filament within? That is also light. But what is the anta light? Not this illumination. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the original source of light. Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (BS 5.40). It is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā . So Brahman knowledge is partial Kṛṣṇa knowledge. Paramātmā knowledge, partial Kṛṣṇa knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa knowledge is perfect. So partial knowledge is also knowledge, but Vedānta means full knowledge. So unless you come to that point, it is not Vedānta . The another example is just like from a distant place you see one mountain. You'll see just like something cloud. It is not cloud; *it is the mountain. But because you are seeing from a distant place you see it is something cloud. If you go little further, you'll see something green, and when you actually go to the mountain you'll find so many trees, so many living entities, so many everything full of varieties. The same mountain, absolute knowledge, advaya*-jñāna , tattva-jñāna . If we accept tattva-jñāna from distant place it is Brahman. If you see that tattva-jñāna still nearer, then it is Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61). And when you go directly to the person, just like we are talking face to . . . that is possibility. And that possibility Kṛṣṇa comes to show us. That is indicated by Śukadeva Gosvāmī that: *When Kṛṣṇa was playing with His cowherd boys friend, so Śukadeva Gosvāmī says: "Who are these boys who are playing with Kṛṣṇa, who is the source of brahma*-sukha ?" Brahma-sukhānubhūtyā . These boys are playing with another boy known as Kṛṣṇa. He is the source of brahma-sukhānubhūti . And dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena : those who are devotees, for them He is the Supreme Lord. And māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa : and those who are under the influence of māyā , they are seeing He's an ordinary boy. But whatever He may be, these boys who are playing with Him, sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ (SB 10.12.11). After many, many lives' acquisition of pious activities, now he has got this opportunity to play with this boy, the source of brahma-sukha . Itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā . They are not playing with ordinary child. He is the source of brahma-sukha . This is the statement of Śukadeva Gosvāmī. *So if we come to Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is personally presenting Himself, that is Vedānta . Otherwise, bahūnāṁ janmanām . . . we have come to that point, but if we neglect, then it will take many, many births to come to that point. Because that is the ultimate. Unless we come to that point, to understand Kṛṣṇa, there is still scarcity of knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa says that, "When there is scarcity of knowledge, then I appear." Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). When the scarcity of knowledge is polluted . . . not only scarcity, but it is polluted, glāniḥ . Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glāniḥ . This is dharma , to come to the perfect knowledge. Human being must come to the perfect knowledge, because this is a boon. Not the cats and dogs can understand. Human being. So when there is glāniḥ , they are accepting the preliminary beginning of knowledge as the perfect knowledge, that is glāniḥ . Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca . . . (BG 4.8). These things are there. Dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya : to establish real religious system. Sambhavāmi yuge yuge . What is that real religious system? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). *Dr. Patel: Bhāgavata*-dharma . *Prabhupāda: No, this is real dharma . Bhāgavata*-dharma is real, Bhagavān. Bhāgavata-dharma means in a relationship with Bhagavān. So if you do not know Bhagavān, then what is this knowledge? That is the defect. All dharmas —there may be Christian dharma , Hindu dharma , this dharma , that dharma —ask any one of them, "Do you know Bhagavān?" "Zero. Nirākāra ." Nirākāra means zero. When you come to the right point: zero. No substance. Therefore they have got this prayer, nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe . This is going on. Śūnyavādi and nirviśeṣa , nirākāravādi . We say . . . there are so many points. We say that, "The supreme father," the Christians say. So how the supreme father can be nirākāra ? We have got experience, my father has ākāra . His father has got ākāra , his father has got ākāra . So if you go to the supreme father, now how He is nirākāra ? I may not have seen my great-grandfather but that does not mean he's nirākāra . So I may not have seen God but if God is supreme father, how He can be nirākāra ? Boliye apka isme koi bolne ka ho to boliye? (So, do you have anything to say on this?) Guest (2): Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, he's a person. His father must be person. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is common sense. If son of God, if the son has form, how the father hasn't got form? What do you say? I'm asking you, this English boy. How the father can be formless? Christ says that he's the son of God. Is it not? English devotee: He said he was, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. But he's a person. So how the father is imperson? What kind of father? Dr. Patel: Sir, instead of calling person, we say he's an individual. Person means this body. Prabhupāda: Person means individual. Dr. Patel: Individual. So God is an individual then? Prabhupāda: No, person. God is a person. Individual means person, individual person. Dr. Patel: They may think person means body. *Prabhupāda: Body or no body, that is separate thing. But when you say "individual," He is a person. And it is explained also in the Bhagavad . . . kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta*-cetasām (BG 12.5). Those who are inclined to the impersonal feature . . . God has got that impersonal feature. So they have to undergo more troubles to understand Him. And after going through troublesome business, bahūnāṁ janmanām , many, many births, then he understands, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam . . . here is the person." Everywhere this disease is very prominent, that God is impersonal. Perhaps this is the only movement in the world that's preaching, "No, God is person." Dr. Patel: All Vaiṣṇavas believe in the personal God. This is only one . . . (indistinct) . . . preach. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bring some prasāda . Distribute. (break) Guest (5): . . . camp. Let your group come and stay in our camp. Prabhupāda: No, no, we have already organized. We have also a organized camp. No, I would have saved this expenditure by joining your camp, but . . . *Guest (4): There is no question of expenditure. We welcome you and your institution over there. We have an arrangement for about two hundred tents, and we have got enough food to offer you, quality food, which you won't find in the whole of the Kumbha*-melā. Because originally . . . Prabhupāda: But suppose if we speak in this way, then you'll not agree. (laughter) Real food is finished. Only purīs , kachorīs . . . (laughter) Guest (4): We'll have more real food when you come over there. Prabhupāda: No, if you do not object our preaching like that, then I can go. Guest (4): Yes, definitely. Prabhupāda: Whether your Swāmījī will like that? Guest (4): No, of course. Because actually there is nothing against your preaching. Otherwise, I would not have come. Prabhupāda: No, this is a contradictory. We say God is person, and you say nirākāra . That is the difference. Why God should be nirākāra ? Guest (4): Ultimately, it is the . . . *Prabhupāda: Ultimately, you say nirākāra . We say ultimately ākāra . And that is the difference, gulf of difference. That is going on. We shall worship Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa there, with our ārati , just like we are doing in the temple. Perhaps your Swāmījī will not like this. And as soon as there is some contradiction . . . *Guest (4): No. Our main theme at the Kumbha*-melā is to speak direct to sādhus who come from Himalayas, because mainly since 150 years this institution is serving them at Hardwar and Prayaga. They don't walk down to Ujjain or Nasik. Mainly they come at Hardwar and Allahabad. Prabhupāda: So if you kindly give us a camp. But we shall preach this. Guest (4): You are at liberty. There is no ban on it. Actually, you see we, as we said, we are serving the humanity directly. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That all right. Nice. But sometimes, if somebody differs, that is not very palatable. Guest (4): No, no, Swāmījī. There is no . . . we welcome you there. I told Mangala when she came that we are not preaching a particular thing. We are going there to serve the people who come who are intellectual. Prabhupāda: For spiritual enlightenment. That's nice. Guest (4): Yes. And practically since many, many years our camp is considered as one of the best from all point of view—hygienic arrangements, food quality. We don't use dalda or anything. We have the pure ghee. There are people who give with heart. Prabhupāda: Suppose if you give us one camp, so how many men we can provide there? Guest (4): At least 50 to 100 people we can accommodate. Prabhupāda: No. Guest (4): Or if you want more . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Our men will not be fifty to so much. Suppose for us, if you spare one camp, so how many men we can accommodate there? Because . . . Guest (4): In one tent at least we can accommodate six people. Easily. With a drawing room and two bedrooms. We have the military tents. And just on the bed of the river. Prabhupāda: So how many men you are expecting? Girirāja: Fourteen. Prabhupāda: Fourteen. (break) Dr. Patel: . . . you can serve how many people? Guest (4): Each tent we'll accommodate with all sanitary conditions. We have in one tent, which is quite a big one, six people easily. With a drawing and two beds. Prabhupāda: So at least three camps we shall require. Guest (4): Three or five. Whatever. Swāmījī, number is immaterial. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . So why don't you do that? Dr. Patel: One for yourself and three to us. So four. Guest (4): I can even reserve for your institution six, eight, ten. Number is immaterial. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you take? Dr. Patel: That is very good. Five reserve karo. Apan . . . (Reserve five tents for us . . .) *Guest (4): Number is immaterial. We have the special boats plying from our camp, because what our principle is, our Gurudev, Paramahamsa devji had taught us . . . away from the melā , in seclusion. Now there is a bhāga , what is known as a yushi*-bhāga , and since last two hundred years all the director sādhus , they reside there because it is away from . . . *Prabhupāda: Munshi*-bhāga that is . . . Guest (4): Yushi. Yushi. So as it is away from melā , there is no hustle and bustle of the melā . It's a secluded place. And from there we ply our own boats. We have about six, eight boats that take you for snāna . In the early morning at four o'clock we have the snāna in the Ganges itself near our camp, because . . . Prabhupāda: Confluence, confluence. *Guest (4): On the spot. We are in the bed of the river, and this plot is reserved since last two hundred years for us from the government when the melā comes— Pūrṇa*-kumbha , Ardha-kumbha . And the boats ply from our spot downstream at Prayaga on the saṅgam . That we take them during the day according to the nakṣatra . Prabhupāda: These gentlemen offering, why not take advantage? Guru dāsa: If it's away from the melā there won't be so much preaching there. Guest (4): People will come to you when they know that you are there. There is no need to go. (laughter) Guest (5): You can still have a small place in melā itself. Guest (4): That publicity will go like this. Don't worry about it. When the sun shines nobody says that the sun has risen. It has risen. Guru dāsa: Vedāntists say, but no one else . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. So you take advantage of it. (everyone talking at once) Now is offering, you should . . . so immediately arrange for this. So Thik hai. Hum log ko dijiye kuch camp. (Okay. So please give us a few tents.) Guest (4): I'll telephone today and we'll make the arrangement at least for five to six, seven tents. *Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Then it will be very nice. We are willing to go there. And we must go there. It is Kumbha*-melā. So if you give us five to six camps it will be very nice. Guest (4): Even up to ten. You don't hesitate for the number. Prabhupāda: Thank you. He's so liberal. You are actually Brahman. (laughter) Brahman means unlimited. Guest (4): Virāṭ. Prabhupāda: Virāṭ. Bṛhatyad , bṛnghanatya iti brahman . Not only the largest, but increasing. That is Brahman. Bṛhatya bṛnghanatya . I'm very much thankful to you. So you arrange immediately. To phir iske liye jo kuch karna hai bol dijiye. (Please inform us about any formalities involved.) Guest (4): I will send a message today, and you will let me know the date. They will come and receive you either at the Benares airport or here at Allahabad station. Because it's not far away from Allahabad. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. I was in Allahabad for thirteen years. Guest (4): I know. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This Kumbha*-melā we have every year. Guest (4): First of all, you see, we have taken just near Yamunā bridge. As soon as the pilgrims come from various parts of the country we have got a . . . Prabhupāda: Yamunā bridge, there are two bridges. Guest (4): Just near Yamunā bridge there is an institution which belongs to Bombay, and that institution is reserved for us just to give a shelter first to people who come by rail. Prabhupāda: So take all these notes. We'll save so much money. Guest (4): Transit camp. Prabhupāda: So immediately. Guest (4): I'll come again, don't worry. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Now, distribute prasāda . Guest (4): Actually, you know, Swāmījī, I had stayed over here whenever he used to come. He passed away in 1960. Prabhupāda: Who? Guest (4): Our Swāmījī. He passed away at . . . (indistinct) . . . in 1960, 14th February. And he was very fond of Juhu since 1923, whenever he was coming to Bombay. Prabhupāda: Juhu is very nice, I know. Guest (4): But now the Juhu has lost its charm. I'm talking about 1923 up to '45. And he used to go deep in the sea up to two miles. He used to take us with him. Prabhupāda: That, one saintly person . . . what is his name? Guest (4): He was a Punjabi body. And mostly he resided in Gujarat. Developed five of his institutions. One in Ooty and two on Narmada and Tapti, and one is near Deoghar in Bihar. Prabhupāda: Bihar. Deoghar. Guest (4): Yes. One we have got in Hardwar itself. We have got a nice āśrama at Sapta Sarovara. I'll just show you one of his . . . because Juhu, whenever he was in Bombay he was at Juhu always. (indistinct comments by others) (break) He was residing at M. C. Satwar, you know, our Attorney General. Prabhupāda: He's Sindhi? Guest (4): Punjabi. Dr. Patel: He lived for 130 years. Prabhupāda: He's still living? Dr. Patel: No, he died only five years back. Guest (4): 1960. This must be one of . . . there was a crowd, you know, at M. C. Satwar's hall. M. C. Satwar had invited everybody from the high court, all the judges. So he was just having a chant with them. So "Swāmījī, we would like to hear you, something." He said: "I am an uneducated man. What can I say?" This was in 1956, just four years before he passed away. Then he was thinking what to tell these guys. Was just thinking for five, ten minutes. And then he spoke for two hours, spellbound. Beautiful. He was about 6 foot 4 inches in height. Prabhupāda: Real Punjabi. (laughter) Guest (4): And the color of his skin was as pink as the petal of the rose. He was a dynamic personality also. And the command over the language was superb. Just Your Holiness is quoting the Sanskrit quotations, just like Swami Gangeshvarananda, though he's a blind man. But you . . . he can quote from any chapter, any stanza, any couplet. He's also here at present. He's coming over there. Prabhupāda: No, he's my good friend. Guest (4): Yes. We had a word about you with him long back. Before, Swāmījī, Your Holiness came to India. Prabhupāda: He likes me. (laughter) Guest (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) *Guest (6): She is my daughter*-in-law. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . He's your son? Guest (6): He's my son. He has just come day before from London to . . . Prabhupāda: You live in London? Guest (6): No, he's studying. He's an executive with the German company over there via India, this German firm. And she is my daughter. And since . . . Prabhupāda: Khub sukhi raho. Krishna naam karo. (Everyone be happy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Everyone be happy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our . . . a good family. (break) *Guest (6): So his friend is my friend. (everyone talking at once) Swāmījī says, he gave a good comparison about the bulbs. Some bulbs have forty candles, some have twenty*-five, some a thousand. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jaya . So where is our Guru Mahārāja? Devotee: Guru dāsa Swami? Prabhupāda: He went away? Guest (4): So I'll see them again. Prabhupāda: All right, thank you. (break) Guest (4): We'll arrange for the best that we could. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Thank you very much. Guest (4): Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (break) Ap kidhar ke rehne wale ho? Oh apni bangali. (Where do you live? Oh you are a Bengali.) Guest (7): Na bangali noi, Bengal e chilo. Oi khane ghar. Ekhon ektu . . . (indistinct) . . . jani na ki, ektu treatment nite eshechi ekhane, Ahmedabad e. (No, I am not a Bengali but I used to live in Bengal in my own house. Now I have come to Ahmedabad for some treatment.) Prabhupāda: Bangla besh bhalo bolen. (You can speak Bengali very nicely.) Speaks Bengali very nice. Guest (7): Yes, he lived in Shanti Niketan four years . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So give him shelter. (end) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Where is Jagadīśa? (break) . . . on the real goal of life. *Jagadīśa: Because they do not know that the goal of human life is to become freed from the repetition of birth and death, therefore there is no, as explained in the First Chapter of the First Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , The people in the age of Kali, the age of quarrel, have a short duration of life . . . Prabhupāda: (aside to child) Oh, you are tiger? How are you, Mr. Tiger? Indian man: This is Mr. Ganesh elder son. Prabhupāda: Now, a tiger? Your grandson? Indian man: Tiger. (Gujarati) Prabhupāda: No, he is . . . he is tiger? Ācchā . Thank you. Hmm. Go on. *Jagadīśa: People are lazy and unfortunate. They have no knowledge. And besides that, they are misled by foolish leaders. The leaders are intent only on deriving sense gratification from their so*-called high position. In the Bhāgavatam also it is explained that men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who do not glorify the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So the . . . it is a civilization of fools, a fool's paradise, where the common people are allowed to elect from amongst them one so-called leader who is the biggest rascal because he doesn't know anything, and none of the others, the common people, know anything about the purpose of life, and yet this so-called leader becomes elected on the basis that he can do something to help suffering humanity. The material existence is nothing but a struggle against material nature, which ultimately has no value. But it's an illusory struggle because of the spirit soul . . . Prabhupāda: Why it has no value? Jagadīśa: Because there is no . . . Prabhupāda: He'll not say that is has no value. You must give the reason why it has no value. *Jagadīśa: It has no value because there is no permanent connection between the spirit soul and the material energy. The spirit soul . . . there are two kinds of energy: material energy and spiritual energy. We have experience of both. The material energy is described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā . . . *Prabhupāda: You can describe like this: Just like if a man is diseased, so the physician imposes upon him some restriction, do and do not. So if by mistake we give up the do not's, then it is useless. He should observe the do not's. Then he'll be cured. And if he does not observe the do not's—whatever he likes, he does—that means his disease is increasing. Therefore it is useless. The real aim of life is how to get out of the clutches of māyā which is forcing me to accept the cycle of birth and death. That is my disease. Therefore tapasya. Tapasya means restricted life, not unrestricted life. So if we do not follow the restricted life, that means I shall continue my disease or increase my disease. The modern civilization, we are teaching how to enjoy this material world to the fullest extent, bhogaiśvarya , sense gratification, and for sense gratification, material opulence. But he does not know that he is killing himself. He is aggravating the disease. He has to accept another body. But that he does not know, that he'll have to take birth and die, again the same business. That he does not know. Therefore this civilization is misguided. Yesterday we were reading, tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We have to purify our existence. So this aim is missing—how to purify it. Sattva . I am eternal. Now I am existing in a condition, birth and death. That they do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). He does not know his interest. He's thinking, "This is life. Let me enjoy. And there is no life after death, and even there is, who cares for it?" This is going on. Guest (1) (Indian man): That tapasya means? Prabhupāda: Tapasya means restricted. Guest (1): Protect your mind . . . wed it to the soul, and take away from all extraneous things which are made up of māyā , is that not the meaning? *Prabhupāda: Tapasya means to rescue the soul from this material condition, yena sattvaṁ śuddhyet , to purify your existence. What is the impurification? Impurification is that the soul is subjected to repetition of birth and . . . that is impurification. That he does not know. So he is missing the goal of life, and he's thinking this temporary so*-called happiness for twenty years, forty years, fifty years, or utmost hundred years, that is his objective. That is a misleading. He does not know the aim of life. He thinks this material enjoyment to make this body stout and strong and enjoy senses like the hogs. Therefore it has been, na arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). The suar , hog, he is thinking, "I am eating stool. I am getting fatty. That is my life. And I am enjoying sex without any discrimination." No discrimination of sex, either mother or sister and daughter—it doesn't matter. This is hog's life. He does not know, as soon as he becomes fatty he'll be captured, and the bhaṅgīs will . . . what is called? Toast, make him a toast. In our country they do. In outside of the village they hang the pig, and with fire. Guest (1): Roast it. Prabhupāda: Roast. And he, it cries, " Chyaa, chyaa, chyaa ." And it is roasted, and they enjoy. But that he does not know. He is getting very strong, but he does not know that he's going to be roasted. Therefore he is misguided. He does not know nature's law. *Guest (1): Sir, isn't the real bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . dvijātmānaṁ brahma*-rūpaṁ deha-tyāgi vibhayaḥ tena kartavyam . . . (indistinct) . . . that type of bhakti is a tapasya . Then you . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But who is going to take the bhakti ? You are going to take sense enjoyment. Guest (1): That bhakti is a tapa itself. That bhakti is amongst the tapas. *Prabhupāda: Yes, bhakti means tapasya . Just like they are in the bhakti line, they are doing tapasya . They are rising early in the morning, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, observing maṅgala-ārati , no meat*-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, so many things. It is tapasya . Whole thing is tapasya, tapa , because by this tapasya the contamination of the soul will be cured. Then, if he understands Kṛṣṇa, then he is transferred to the spiritual world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). He does not come again to accept this material body, and he permanently lives in the spiritual world. That is perfection. The modern civilization, they do not know all these things. They are misguiding that, "You earn to your best extent. Work very hard like hogs." And there is advertisement, "Work hard, the next." (loud sounds of thunder as storm approaches) They are pulling on ṭhelā , rickshaw, still, their leaders advising, "Work hard. Work still more hard." A human being is pulling on ṭhelā and rickshaw, and still hard work. And that rascal does not know that this hard work like hogs and dogs will not make the solution. But they are enthusing, "Yes, work hard. Be stout and strong," as if becoming stout and strong will save him. That's not possible. Guest (1): Modern civilization is a civilization of class, and Vedic civilization was a civilization of soul. We can say that is all. *Prabhupāda: That is the real civilization. Soul is enwrapped with this material body, and it has to be stopped. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). That is civilization. And he has no knowledge, na te viduḥ , what is the civilization. Then andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The rascal leader is also blind and the followers are blind, so both of them are doomed. Therefore the conclusion is, the modern civilization is misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ . Big, big leaders, they promises big, big ideal that, "I shall give you this facility. Just elect me." What facility he will give? No facility. He gives some false promise and gets his election and claps. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). He does not know what is the aim of life. Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ . He is animal also. And the other animals clapping, "Oh, we have got such a big leader." Big elephant, yes. (laughter) And elephant he may be, but he is, after all, a animal. What he'll do? Misguided. (loud sounds of thunder) (welcomes guest) Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . You don't require any covering? Guest (2): No, I do, but . . . Guest (1): (indistinct Hindi) . . . my daughter. Prabhupāda: I have not seen him? Guest (1): He used to come. *Prabhupāda: So anyone's question about this, this misdirected civilization? In India there was no such misdirected civilization. Now they have learned how to misguide people, and they have taken this ideal, that "Unless we become like the Europeans and Americans, our progress is checked." This is going on. Actually there is no progress. We are condemned. Why they should waste so much energy for de*-gress, not for progress. Before British period, India, there were cities, but not like this, because their energy was utilized. Cities were constructed especially in pilgrimage place, like Mathurā. Mathurā is very old city, but that is a pilgrimage. Dvārakā, that is also very old city. First of all there was no need of big, big cities because there was no industry. They did not know what is industry. And there were ample food—food grains, milk, vegetables. Those who were eating meat, they were eating small, nonimportant animals like goats, hogs, and they never touched cows. Cows are very important animals. Even the stool, urine is important. They knew it. In the agricultural field the cows, passing stool, that is also benefit, natural fertilizing. Dr. Patel: And from cows' dung we have produced penicillin in Calcutta . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That may be, but why penicillin is required? Dr. Patel: No, but that means it had some value right from beginning. Our forefathers must have known it. Why they did not . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no, we are speaking . . . we are speaking . . . because it is important, therefore Kṛṣṇa said, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya . Why go-rakṣya required, you do not require any explanation. Kṛṣṇa said go-rakṣya , "You must protect." That's all. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Because we have no brain why Kṛṣṇa—giving up all other animals—He is giving stress on go . And that is meaning. He never said animal- rakṣya, paśu-rakṣya. No. Those who want to eat paśu , let them eat nonimportant like hogs and dogs. There are class of men who eat dogs also, hogs also. Or, utmost, goats. But don't touch cow. This is instruction. And modern civilization first of all killed all the cows. And when they are no more available, then can you eat other animals. I do not know why our government is now restricting cow slaughter. Dr. Patel: They have banned the cow slaughter all over India now. Prabhupāda: I know that. Eh. Guest (3): This is only in Maharashtra, on the . . . Dr. Patel: They are restricting in Maharashtra also. (indistinct comments on subject by guest) Prabhupāda: No, what is the reason all of a sudden they have good sense? Dr. Patel: Vinoba Bhave wanted it. Prabhupāda: Vinobe Bhave is not so important. There is government policy, something. Otherwise they could not care what Vinobe Bhave said. It is . . . don't think it is due to Vinoba Bhave's request. Dr. Patel: No, but that is what apparently . . . Prabhupāda: What Vinoba Bhave . . .? There were so many agitation for stopping cow slaughter, big, big, Karpatra Ji and others, others . . . Guest (4): One Shankaracarya fasted seventy days. Prabhupāda: Yes, so they didn't care. Now, all of a sudden, why this good sense? Vinoba Bhave is not very important. There is some policy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that Sanjay Gandhi, who is very influential, is a staunch supporter of Hinduism. Prabhupāda: Oh, that may be cause. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I read in the papers the other day. He addressed the youth of the Arya*-samaj to find out what the . . . (indistinct) . . . is. And he's the leader of the Arya-samaj also. Prabhupāda: I understand from our propaganda that one . . . what is the Swami? Devotee: Chandra Swami. Prabhupāda: Chandra Swami. He is the president? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, of Bharat . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He has recommended our case that, "This is the only institution who is making the Christian Hindu. Before this movement the Christian converted Hindus. Nobody could convert the Christian to become Hindu. And this is the only movement that is converting Christian to Hindu." So he is very much in favor of this movement, and it is understood that he talked with Indira Gandhi in telephone. So may be that if that Hindu movement is increasing, and in India the cow slaughter is going on, and it is against Hindu, might have considered like that. Dr. Patel: Pakistan has banned cow slaughter. Yes. Because they had done away by vengeance, all the cows. They wanted to spite the Hindus, kill the cows . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: I don't think they kill cows in China, either, because its economic value is too great. Prabhupāda: That means they are coming to the sense how cow is important. (pause) Hari-śauri: It is said that he wants to see me. *Hari-śauri: Yes, at Kumbha*-melā. *Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Before me, for the last two hundred years, so many svāmīs and yogīs went to the Western countries. Nobody could convert a single person to Hinduism. That is a fact in the history. These foreigners—giving up meat*-eating, illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling—it is a horrible thing for them. Lord Zetland said: "This is impossible for us." Actually it is impossible, because American government spent millions of dollars to stop this LSD intoxication, but it was not successful. But they have seen that as soon as the same boy comes to our camp, he immediately gives up, immediately, without any protest that, "Why shall I give up?" No. I ask, "You have to give up." "Yes, we shall do." That's a fact. Therefore this Swami Chit . . .? Jagadīśa: Chandra Swami. Prabhupāda: Ah, Chandra Swami, has strongly recommended that, "This is the only movement which is converting Christian into Hindu." He is pleased on this account. He is not interested our Hare . . . he has said that, "I am not very much interested in Hare Kṛṣṇa, but I am interested in this point." That is natural, that nobody could convert the Christian to Hindu, but this movement is doing that. Yaśomatīnandana: That is indirectly accepting Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. We do not make any compromise. Vivekananda went there. He came back. He said, "What is the wrong in meat*-eating?" He introduced meat-eating amongst his contemporary sannyāsīs . This is his Vedānta - pracāra . So he is advertised that he preached Vedānta all over America, and everyone has become Vedāntist. What is . . .? What kind of Vedāntist? Now, he introduced meat-eating amongst the sannyāsīs , which was never in India, any . . . there are two sets of sannyāsīs : the Śaṅkara-sampradāya and Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya. But their ācāra is the same. They may differ in philosophy, but their ācāra is the same. Rather, the Śaṅkara-sampradāya sannyāsī are more strict than the Vaiṣṇava sannyāsī . Śaṅkara sampradāya sannyāsī , they'll never occupy a seat, those who are strictly following. They'll sit down on the floor, without any āsana . They lie down on the floor. They are so renounced. And what is this, that sannyāsī smoking and drinking? And ordinary sannyāsīs , they are drinking also tea, one ghara . I have seen it. *Bhava*-bhūti: Now Rajneesh gives sannyāsī and sannyāsinī . Prabhupāda: Ācchā , yes. Sannyāsinī , woman sannyāsī . Yaśomatīnandana: It's just a mockery. He's not making any sannyāsī . He's not sannyāsa , he just gives name sannyāsa . Hari-śauri: Neo- sannyāsa he calls it. Prabhupāda: No, no, they dress like sannyāsī . Yaśomatīnandana: They dress, but they smoke bīḍīs , they . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: They say nava*-sannyāsa. They say nava-sannyāsa. Dr. Patel: Neo. Prabhupāda: Neo- sannyāsa . *Hari-śauri: There were three or four of them came to stay at the guesthouse in Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma guesthouse. Prabhupāda: Yes. Husband and wife sannyāsa . (laughter) *Hari-śauri: Yes. They were saying: "I am sannyāsī , and my brother is sannyāsī , and my wife is sannyāsī , but my mother*-in-law, she is not sannyāsī ." (laughter) *Prabhupāda: This is Kali*-yuga. Rascals, they are doing anything and any . . . *Yaśomatīnandana: And he also has written Bhagavad*-gītā , his own Bhagavad-gītā . Hari-śauri: It's five to seven. Prabhupāda: So let us go down. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . (end) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Where is Jagadīśa? (break) . . . on the real goal of life. *Jagadīśa: Because they do not know that the goal of human life is to become freed from the repetition of birth and death, therefore there is no, as explained in the First Chapter of the First Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , The people in the age of Kali, the age of quarrel, have a short duration of life . . . Prabhupāda: (aside to child) Oh, you are tiger? How are you, Mr. Tiger? Indian man: This is Mr. Ganesh elder son. Prabhupāda: Now, a tiger? Your grandson? Indian man: Tiger. (Gujarati) Prabhupāda: No, he is . . . he is tiger? Ācchā . Thank you. Hmm. Go on. *Jagadīśa: People are lazy and unfortunate. They have no knowledge. And besides that, they are misled by foolish leaders. The leaders are intent only on deriving sense gratification from their so*-called high position. In the Bhāgavatam also it is explained that men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who do not glorify the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So the . . . it is a civilization of fools, a fool's paradise, where the common people are allowed to elect from amongst them one so-called leader who is the biggest rascal because he doesn't know anything, and none of the others, the common people, know anything about the purpose of life, and yet this so-called leader becomes elected on the basis that he can do something to help suffering humanity. The material existence is nothing but a struggle against material nature, which ultimately has no value. But it's an illusory struggle because of the spirit soul . . . Prabhupāda: Why it has no value? Jagadīśa: Because there is no . . . Prabhupāda: He'll not say that is has no value. You must give the reason why it has no value. *Jagadīśa: It has no value because there is no permanent connection between the spirit soul and the material energy. The spirit soul . . . there are two kinds of energy: material energy and spiritual energy. We have experience of both. The material energy is described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā . . . *Prabhupāda: You can describe like this: Just like if a man is diseased, so the physician imposes upon him some restriction, do and do not. So if by mistake we give up the do not's, then it is useless. He should observe the do not's. Then he'll be cured. And if he does not observe the do not's—whatever he likes, he does—that means his disease is increasing. Therefore it is useless. The real aim of life is how to get out of the clutches of māyā which is forcing me to accept the cycle of birth and death. That is my disease. Therefore tapasya. Tapasya means restricted life, not unrestricted life. So if we do not follow the restricted life, that means I shall continue my disease or increase my disease. The modern civilization, we are teaching how to enjoy this material world to the fullest extent, bhogaiśvarya , sense gratification, and for sense gratification, material opulence. But he does not know that he is killing himself. He is aggravating the disease. He has to accept another body. But that he does not know, that he'll have to take birth and die, again the same business. That he does not know. Therefore this civilization is misguided. Yesterday we were reading, tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We have to purify our existence. So this aim is missing—how to purify it. Sattva . I am eternal. Now I am existing in a condition, birth and death. That they do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). He does not know his interest. He's thinking, "This is life. Let me enjoy. And there is no life after death, and even there is, who cares for it?" This is going on. Guest (1) (Indian man): That tapasya means? Prabhupāda: Tapasya means restricted. Guest (1): Protect your mind . . . wed it to the soul, and take away from all extraneous things which are made up of māyā , is that not the meaning? *Prabhupāda: Tapasya means to rescue the soul from this material condition, yena sattvaṁ śuddhyet , to purify your existence. What is the impurification? Impurification is that the soul is subjected to repetition of birth and . . . that is impurification. That he does not know. So he is missing the goal of life, and he's thinking this temporary so*-called happiness for twenty years, forty years, fifty years, or utmost hundred years, that is his objective. That is a misleading. He does not know the aim of life. He thinks this material enjoyment to make this body stout and strong and enjoy senses like the hogs. Therefore it has been, na arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). The suar , hog, he is thinking, "I am eating stool. I am getting fatty. That is my life. And I am enjoying sex without any discrimination." No discrimination of sex, either mother or sister and daughter—it doesn't matter. This is hog's life. He does not know, as soon as he becomes fatty he'll be captured, and the bhaṅgīs will . . . what is called? Toast, make him a toast. In our country they do. In outside of the village they hang the pig, and with fire. Guest (1): Roast it. Prabhupāda: Roast. And he, it cries, " Chyaa, chyaa, chyaa ." And it is roasted, and they enjoy. But that he does not know. He is getting very strong, but he does not know that he's going to be roasted. Therefore he is misguided. He does not know nature's law. *Guest (1): Sir, isn't the real bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . dvijātmānaṁ brahma*-rūpaṁ deha-tyāgi vibhayaḥ tena kartavyam . . . (indistinct) . . . that type of bhakti is a tapasya . Then you . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But who is going to take the bhakti ? You are going to take sense enjoyment. Guest (1): That bhakti is a tapa itself. That bhakti is amongst the tapas. *Prabhupāda: Yes, bhakti means tapasya . Just like they are in the bhakti line, they are doing tapasya . They are rising early in the morning, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, observing maṅgala-ārati , no meat*-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, so many things. It is tapasya . Whole thing is tapasya, tapa , because by this tapasya the contamination of the soul will be cured. Then, if he understands Kṛṣṇa, then he is transferred to the spiritual world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). He does not come again to accept this material body, and he permanently lives in the spiritual world. That is perfection. The modern civilization, they do not know all these things. They are misguiding that, "You earn to your best extent. Work very hard like hogs." And there is advertisement, "Work hard, the next." (loud sounds of thunder as storm approaches) They are pulling on ṭhelā , rickshaw, still, their leaders advising, "Work hard. Work still more hard." A human being is pulling on ṭhelā and rickshaw, and still hard work. And that rascal does not know that this hard work like hogs and dogs will not make the solution. But they are enthusing, "Yes, work hard. Be stout and strong," as if becoming stout and strong will save him. That's not possible. Guest (1): Modern civilization is a civilization of class, and Vedic civilization was a civilization of soul. We can say that is all. *Prabhupāda: That is the real civilization. Soul is enwrapped with this material body, and it has to be stopped. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). That is civilization. And he has no knowledge, na te viduḥ , what is the civilization. Then andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The rascal leader is also blind and the followers are blind, so both of them are doomed. Therefore the conclusion is, the modern civilization is misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ . Big, big leaders, they promises big, big ideal that, "I shall give you this facility. Just elect me." What facility he will give? No facility. He gives some false promise and gets his election and claps. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). He does not know what is the aim of life. Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ . He is animal also. And the other animals clapping, "Oh, we have got such a big leader." Big elephant, yes. (laughter) And elephant he may be, but he is, after all, a animal. What he'll do? Misguided. (loud sounds of thunder) (welcomes guest) Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . You don't require any covering? Guest (2): No, I do, but . . . Guest (1): (indistinct Hindi) . . . my daughter. Prabhupāda: I have not seen him? Guest (1): He used to come. *Prabhupāda: So anyone's question about this, this misdirected civilization? In India there was no such misdirected civilization. Now they have learned how to misguide people, and they have taken this ideal, that "Unless we become like the Europeans and Americans, our progress is checked." This is going on. Actually there is no progress. We are condemned. Why they should waste so much energy for de*-gress, not for progress. Before British period, India, there were cities, but not like this, because their energy was utilized. Cities were constructed especially in pilgrimage place, like Mathurā. Mathurā is very old city, but that is a pilgrimage. Dvārakā, that is also very old city. First of all there was no need of big, big cities because there was no industry. They did not know what is industry. And there were ample food—food grains, milk, vegetables. Those who were eating meat, they were eating small, nonimportant animals like goats, hogs, and they never touched cows. Cows are very important animals. Even the stool, urine is important. They knew it. In the agricultural field the cows, passing stool, that is also benefit, natural fertilizing. Dr. Patel: And from cows' dung we have produced penicillin in Calcutta . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That may be, but why penicillin is required? Dr. Patel: No, but that means it had some value right from beginning. Our forefathers must have known it. Why they did not . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no, we are speaking . . . we are speaking . . . because it is important, therefore Kṛṣṇa said, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya . Why go-rakṣya required, you do not require any explanation. Kṛṣṇa said go-rakṣya , "You must protect." That's all. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Because we have no brain why Kṛṣṇa—giving up all other animals—He is giving stress on go . And that is meaning. He never said animal- rakṣya, paśu-rakṣya. No. Those who want to eat paśu , let them eat nonimportant like hogs and dogs. There are class of men who eat dogs also, hogs also. Or, utmost, goats. But don't touch cow. This is instruction. And modern civilization first of all killed all the cows. And when they are no more available, then can you eat other animals. I do not know why our government is now restricting cow slaughter. Dr. Patel: They have banned the cow slaughter all over India now. Prabhupāda: I know that. Eh. Guest (3): This is only in Maharashtra, on the . . . Dr. Patel: They are restricting in Maharashtra also. (indistinct comments on subject by guest) Prabhupāda: No, what is the reason all of a sudden they have good sense? Dr. Patel: Vinoba Bhave wanted it. Prabhupāda: Vinobe Bhave is not so important. There is government policy, something. Otherwise they could not care what Vinobe Bhave said. It is . . . don't think it is due to Vinoba Bhave's request. Dr. Patel: No, but that is what apparently . . . Prabhupāda: What Vinoba Bhave . . .? There were so many agitation for stopping cow slaughter, big, big, Karpatra Ji and others, others . . . Guest (4): One Shankaracarya fasted seventy days. Prabhupāda: Yes, so they didn't care. Now, all of a sudden, why this good sense? Vinoba Bhave is not very important. There is some policy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that Sanjay Gandhi, who is very influential, is a staunch supporter of Hinduism. Prabhupāda: Oh, that may be cause. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I read in the papers the other day. He addressed the youth of the Arya*-samaj to find out what the . . . (indistinct) . . . is. And he's the leader of the Arya-samaj also. Prabhupāda: I understand from our propaganda that one . . . what is the Swami? Devotee: Chandra Swami. Prabhupāda: Chandra Swami. He is the president? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, of Bharat . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He has recommended our case that, "This is the only institution who is making the Christian Hindu. Before this movement the Christian converted Hindus. Nobody could convert the Christian to become Hindu. And this is the only movement that is converting Christian to Hindu." So he is very much in favor of this movement, and it is understood that he talked with Indira Gandhi in telephone. So may be that if that Hindu movement is increasing, and in India the cow slaughter is going on, and it is against Hindu, might have considered like that. Dr. Patel: Pakistan has banned cow slaughter. Yes. Because they had done away by vengeance, all the cows. They wanted to spite the Hindus, kill the cows . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: I don't think they kill cows in China, either, because its economic value is too great. Prabhupāda: That means they are coming to the sense how cow is important. (pause) Hari-śauri: It is said that he wants to see me. *Hari-śauri: Yes, at Kumbha*-melā. *Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Before me, for the last two hundred years, so many svāmīs and yogīs went to the Western countries. Nobody could convert a single person to Hinduism. That is a fact in the history. These foreigners—giving up meat*-eating, illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling—it is a horrible thing for them. Lord Zetland said: "This is impossible for us." Actually it is impossible, because American government spent millions of dollars to stop this LSD intoxication, but it was not successful. But they have seen that as soon as the same boy comes to our camp, he immediately gives up, immediately, without any protest that, "Why shall I give up?" No. I ask, "You have to give up." "Yes, we shall do." That's a fact. Therefore this Swami Chit . . .? Jagadīśa: Chandra Swami. Prabhupāda: Ah, Chandra Swami, has strongly recommended that, "This is the only movement which is converting Christian into Hindu." He is pleased on this account. He is not interested our Hare . . . he has said that, "I am not very much interested in Hare Kṛṣṇa, but I am interested in this point." That is natural, that nobody could convert the Christian to Hindu, but this movement is doing that. Yaśomatīnandana: That is indirectly accepting Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. We do not make any compromise. Vivekananda went there. He came back. He said, "What is the wrong in meat*-eating?" He introduced meat-eating amongst his contemporary sannyāsīs . This is his Vedānta - pracāra . So he is advertised that he preached Vedānta all over America, and everyone has become Vedāntist. What is . . .? What kind of Vedāntist? Now, he introduced meat-eating amongst the sannyāsīs , which was never in India, any . . . there are two sets of sannyāsīs : the Śaṅkara-sampradāya and Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya. But their ācāra is the same. They may differ in philosophy, but their ācāra is the same. Rather, the Śaṅkara-sampradāya sannyāsī are more strict than the Vaiṣṇava sannyāsī . Śaṅkara sampradāya sannyāsī , they'll never occupy a seat, those who are strictly following. They'll sit down on the floor, without any āsana . They lie down on the floor. They are so renounced. And what is this, that sannyāsī smoking and drinking? And ordinary sannyāsīs , they are drinking also tea, one ghara . I have seen it. *Bhava*-bhūti: Now Rajneesh gives sannyāsī and sannyāsinī . Prabhupāda: Ācchā , yes. Sannyāsinī , woman sannyāsī . Yaśomatīnandana: It's just a mockery. He's not making any sannyāsī . He's not sannyāsa , he just gives name sannyāsa . Hari-śauri: Neo- sannyāsa he calls it. Prabhupāda: No, no, they dress like sannyāsī . Yaśomatīnandana: They dress, but they smoke bīḍīs , they . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: They say nava*-sannyāsa. They say nava-sannyāsa. Dr. Patel: Neo. Prabhupāda: Neo- sannyāsa . *Hari-śauri: There were three or four of them came to stay at the guesthouse in Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma guesthouse. Prabhupāda: Yes. Husband and wife sannyāsa . (laughter) *Hari-śauri: Yes. They were saying: "I am sannyāsī , and my brother is sannyāsī , and my wife is sannyāsī , but my mother*-in-law, she is not sannyāsī ." (laughter) *Prabhupāda: This is Kali*-yuga. Rascals, they are doing anything and any . . . *Yaśomatīnandana: And he also has written Bhagavad*-gītā , his own Bhagavad-gītā . Hari-śauri: It's five to seven. Prabhupāda: So let us go down. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . (end) Girirāja: He made another point that in Krishna Shankar Shastri's compiling of the commentaries, commentators, that Śrīdhara Svāmī is given the first position. Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: But he says that is because he was the first, but it does not mean he was the best. Prabhupāda: (laughs) It is nonsense. Unless one is best, why he should be given first? Any . . . if there is any meeting, the most important man is given the first position. At least out of respect. Everyone has given first position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore praised. What is his nonsense arguments? Yaśomatīnandana: There are two other versions of *Bhāgavatam* . There also, Śrīdhara Svāmī has been considered the best commentator. Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepts. Svāmī nā māne yei jana veśyāra bhitare ( CC Antya 7.115). Everyone has given. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, iti svāmī caraṇa kahe . Jīva Gosvāmī, all authorities, they accept. And why they are criticizing Śrīdhara Svāmī? Girirāja: That is the main point. Prabhupāda: That is the main point. If you can criticize Śrīdhara Svāmī, then your criticism, why you take the criticism? Then others, you must be judged. Indian devotee: Because all of these other gurus , they are all devotees now, all of them. Prabhupāda: So what they are going to answer to this? Will you accept everything? Ask them. So when the rascal . . . (indistinct) . . . but exposes you, what answer you have got? Why you are silent? Silent means acceptance. Maunam . . . (indistinct) . . . if I say: "You are rascal, you are thief," and if you don't reply, that means you accept it. Maunam . . . (indistinct) . . . if you do not protest, and if you do not say anything . . . so such a big criticism from . . . (indistinct) . . . and they are silent. Why do they not go to the court? Bluff only. That means he accepts . . . (indistinct) . . . has been made here? (static—very indistinct for some time) (indistinct Hindi) Indian devotee: He was here also with . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Another (indistinct) . . . also . . . (indistinct) Indian devotee: He is son of . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja, but he is very envious. Very, very envious. I went to him, I remember, when we were . . . *Prabhupāda: They are envious of the Gauḍīya*-sampradāya, because of . . . (indistinct) . . . since a long time. *Yaśomatīnandana: But they cannot say anything against Gauḍīya*-sampradāya because Vallabhācārya glorified Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot say anything against Caitanya Mahāprabhu because Vallabhācārya glorified Him. Prabhupāda: No. He has written to . . . (indistinct) . . .? Girirāja: Yes. He made another point, that is, Vallabhācārya actually considered Caitanya Mahāprabhu as his superior. Then after this incident, still, he criticized Śrīdhara Swami. So that means he did not accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu as superior. Prabhupāda: There is no question of accept. He was plainly defeated. Because he said that . . . (indistinct) . . . even Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted his invitation after this. He also invited, and he also . . . (indistinct) . . . talk like that. So not only that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu criticized, but as soon as Vallabhācārya invited, He accepted. There was no enviousness. Rather friendly, sometimes they call others are . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu would accept invitation from Vallabhācārya? But they are habituated to criticize . . . (indistinct) . . . that Caitanya Mahāprabhu chastised him: "Why should you think like that?" In a friendly way . . . (indistinct) . . . they are still criticizing Śrīdhara Swami, and if others criticize them, "Why you are criticizing Śrīdhara Swami?" there is no answer. This is the position. (indistinct—only fragments of conversation audible for some time) *Hari-śauri: There was one . . . in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , there was one tax collector, a friend of Nityananda Prabhu, and then afterwards he was raided by the authorities, and his whole family and everything was completely finished. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian devotee: That was Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Hari-śauri: No, . . . (indistinct) Indian devotee: He was the same one who also tried to . . . besides, some of the Vallabhācārya devotees told me in Ahmedabad that . . . (indistinct) . . . is also as debauched as the other . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct comments by devotees) What is his qualification to speak as ācārya ? (indistinct comments by devotees) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Hari-śauri: They have no . . . (indistinct) . . . because they even refute what is in the śāstra . They were criticizing that Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja made mistakes when he wrote the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta also. Prabhupāda: They say like that? Hari-śauri: Yeah, he said that he didn't know . . . he wrote the wrong version in the section about Vallabhācārya, and that the real version is somewhere else. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Hari-śauri: Yeah, well they don't accept the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . they don't accept; *we don't accept you. The whole world is accepting Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . . . (indistinct) . . . all over the world, not only in India. All over the world. Is it not? (indistinct—fragmentary for some time) Indian devotee: They even told me . . . (indistinct) . . . that this sampradāya will be finished by the forces from the . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Gauḍīya*-sampradāya. So if the court decision is there, why not claim? (more indistinct fragments) (break) Girirāja: They're having a ceremony of bringing the flag. Devotee: Again? Girirāja: Yes. From the Nathdwara, Bombay, at some place. And they invited us to do kīrtana . Prabhupāda: You may go. You have no . . .? You can go. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Last time they would not let us distribute our magazines when they had it in Shrimati Morarji's house. They had the same ceremony in Shrimati Morarji's house here about a year ago, and they didn't like our book distribution there. Prabhupāda: What this time, where it will be held? Girirāja: This is an organization. This last time was Sumati Morarji's personal . . . Prabhupāda: Private house. This is organized function. You ask them a place to show our books. If they deny, then we don't go. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Jaya. Haribol . *Rādhā*-vallabha: This one parade in Los Angeles, the Rose Bowl, they distribute thousands of books on this one day. What happens is all the karmīs get out there, sometimes the night before—at least very, very early in the morning—and they line both sides of the road. Prabhupāda: To see? *Rādhā*-vallabha: To see, yes. Approximately a million people. About a million people, they're just lining both sides of the road, and the street is empty before the parade. So this year we're going to have the gurukula boys do a kīrtana and go right up the road. So one million people will see the saṅkīrtana party. Guru dāsa: And then it will be on television. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It will probably be on television. *Hari-śauri: They have a similar parade in Melbourne like that, called a Moomba. Three*-quarters of a million people come for it, and the whole city closes down. And they line up and down the main road and then they have a parade of floats. So they invited that we could put a float in, so Bali-mardana said he would try and get the ratha cart in. Three-quarters of a million people seeing Lord Jagannātha. Guru dāsa: Why don't you do that in Los Angeles? (break) (end) Girirāja: He made another point that in Krishna Shankar Shastri's compiling of the commentaries, commentators, that Śrīdhara Svāmī is given the first position. Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: But he says that is because he was the first, but it does not mean he was the best. Prabhupāda: (laughs) It is nonsense. Unless one is best, why he should be given first? Any . . . if there is any meeting, the most important man is given the first position. At least out of respect. Everyone has given first position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore praised. What is his nonsense arguments? Yaśomatīnandana: There are two other versions of *Bhāgavatam* . There also, Śrīdhara Svāmī has been considered the best commentator. Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepts. Svāmī nā māne yei jana veśyāra bhitare ( CC Antya 7.115). Everyone has given. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, iti svāmī caraṇa kahe . Jīva Gosvāmī, all authorities, they accept. And why they are criticizing Śrīdhara Svāmī? Girirāja: That is the main point. Prabhupāda: That is the main point. If you can criticize Śrīdhara Svāmī, then your criticism, why you take the criticism? Then others, you must be judged. Indian devotee: Because all of these other gurus , they are all devotees now, all of them. Prabhupāda: So what they are going to answer to this? Will you accept everything? Ask them. So when the rascal . . . (indistinct) . . . but exposes you, what answer you have got? Why you are silent? Silent means acceptance. Maunam . . . (indistinct) . . . if I say: "You are rascal, you are thief," and if you don't reply, that means you accept it. Maunam . . . (indistinct) . . . if you do not protest, and if you do not say anything . . . so such a big criticism from . . . (indistinct) . . . and they are silent. Why do they not go to the court? Bluff only. That means he accepts . . . (indistinct) . . . has been made here? (static—very indistinct for some time) (indistinct Hindi) Indian devotee: He was here also with . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Another (indistinct) . . . also . . . (indistinct) Indian devotee: He is son of . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja, but he is very envious. Very, very envious. I went to him, I remember, when we were . . . *Prabhupāda: They are envious of the Gauḍīya*-sampradāya, because of . . . (indistinct) . . . since a long time. *Yaśomatīnandana: But they cannot say anything against Gauḍīya*-sampradāya because Vallabhācārya glorified Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot say anything against Caitanya Mahāprabhu because Vallabhācārya glorified Him. Prabhupāda: No. He has written to . . . (indistinct) . . .? Girirāja: Yes. He made another point, that is, Vallabhācārya actually considered Caitanya Mahāprabhu as his superior. Then after this incident, still, he criticized Śrīdhara Swami. So that means he did not accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu as superior. Prabhupāda: There is no question of accept. He was plainly defeated. Because he said that . . . (indistinct) . . . even Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted his invitation after this. He also invited, and he also . . . (indistinct) . . . talk like that. So not only that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu criticized, but as soon as Vallabhācārya invited, He accepted. There was no enviousness. Rather friendly, sometimes they call others are . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu would accept invitation from Vallabhācārya? But they are habituated to criticize . . . (indistinct) . . . that Caitanya Mahāprabhu chastised him: "Why should you think like that?" In a friendly way . . . (indistinct) . . . they are still criticizing Śrīdhara Swami, and if others criticize them, "Why you are criticizing Śrīdhara Swami?" there is no answer. This is the position. (indistinct—only fragments of conversation audible for some time) *Hari-śauri: There was one . . . in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , there was one tax collector, a friend of Nityananda Prabhu, and then afterwards he was raided by the authorities, and his whole family and everything was completely finished. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian devotee: That was Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Hari-śauri: No, . . . (indistinct) Indian devotee: He was the same one who also tried to . . . besides, some of the Vallabhācārya devotees told me in Ahmedabad that . . . (indistinct) . . . is also as debauched as the other . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct comments by devotees) What is his qualification to speak as ācārya ? (indistinct comments by devotees) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Hari-śauri: They have no . . . (indistinct) . . . because they even refute what is in the śāstra . They were criticizing that Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja made mistakes when he wrote the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta also. Prabhupāda: They say like that? Hari-śauri: Yeah, he said that he didn't know . . . he wrote the wrong version in the section about Vallabhācārya, and that the real version is somewhere else. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Hari-śauri: Yeah, well they don't accept the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . they don't accept; *we don't accept you. The whole world is accepting Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . . . (indistinct) . . . all over the world, not only in India. All over the world. Is it not? (indistinct—fragmentary for some time) Indian devotee: They even told me . . . (indistinct) . . . that this sampradāya will be finished by the forces from the . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Gauḍīya*-sampradāya. So if the court decision is there, why not claim? (more indistinct fragments) (break) Girirāja: They're having a ceremony of bringing the flag. Devotee: Again? Girirāja: Yes. From the Nathdwara, Bombay, at some place. And they invited us to do kīrtana . Prabhupāda: You may go. You have no . . .? You can go. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Last time they would not let us distribute our magazines when they had it in Shrimati Morarji's house. They had the same ceremony in Shrimati Morarji's house here about a year ago, and they didn't like our book distribution there. Prabhupāda: What this time, where it will be held? Girirāja: This is an organization. This last time was Sumati Morarji's personal . . . Prabhupāda: Private house. This is organized function. You ask them a place to show our books. If they deny, then we don't go. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Jaya. Haribol . *Rādhā*-vallabha: This one parade in Los Angeles, the Rose Bowl, they distribute thousands of books on this one day. What happens is all the karmīs get out there, sometimes the night before—at least very, very early in the morning—and they line both sides of the road. Prabhupāda: To see? *Rādhā*-vallabha: To see, yes. Approximately a million people. About a million people, they're just lining both sides of the road, and the street is empty before the parade. So this year we're going to have the gurukula boys do a kīrtana and go right up the road. So one million people will see the saṅkīrtana party. Guru dāsa: And then it will be on television. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It will probably be on television. *Hari-śauri: They have a similar parade in Melbourne like that, called a Moomba. Three*-quarters of a million people come for it, and the whole city closes down. And they line up and down the main road and then they have a parade of floats. So they invited that we could put a float in, so Bali-mardana said he would try and get the ratha cart in. Three-quarters of a million people seeing Lord Jagannātha. Guru dāsa: Why don't you do that in Los Angeles? (break) (end) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is the author of all these books that you see. These books are being translated in every major language of the world. Indian man (1): How many books in number? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Eighty*-four books of about four hundred pages each. Indian man (2): How many in vernacular languages printing? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About twenty*-one different languages they have been translated. Indian man (2): In India? Indian languages? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, international. French, Italian . . . Indian man (2): In India? Indian languages? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati, Tamil, Oriya, Bengali, Gujarati . . . every major Indian language. Indian man (1): Can you tell us the different subjects covered by the . . .? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's Vedic subjects. It's the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . *Prabhupāda: We are stressing especially on Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Indian man (2): You have printed outside India? Indian man (3): : Do you have special on each chapter of *Gītā* ? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Each word. You can show Bhagavad*-gītā . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a very authoritative presentation. For example, here's the original Sanskrit śloka , word for word . . . *Indian man (3): : (indistinct) . . . different . . . (indistinct) . . . for example, sāṅkhya*-yoga . You have a separate book? Then sthita-prajñā . You have a separate . . .? *Prabhupāda: No separately. It is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Indian man (3): : But that way, your volumes are dealing with each chapter of *Gītā* ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Each śloka . Each chapter. Guest (2): No, no. Not inside the book. Different volumes. Like eighteen chapters, but eighteen volumes. Prabhupāda: No, no. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. It's in one book. Twelve hundred pages. Indian man (3): : And the interpretation is by you yourself? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not interpretation. I am explaining as it is. You can read one. Indian man (3): : Have you tried to compare with *Gītā* written by Gyaneshvara, or by Vinoba Bhave or by somebody else? *Prabhupāda: According to Bhagavad*-gītā , if you don't follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā , you may be very learned scholar, whatever you write, it is lost. We follow that principle. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ ( BG 4.2). (aside) Find out this Fourth Chapter. Indian man (2): Have these books been reviewed in foreign papers? Prabhupāda: It is very widely read. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For example, in the Fourth Chapter Lord Kṛṣṇa says: *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that this Bhagavad*-gītā has to be received by the disciplic succession. And sa kālena yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . Because that disciplic succession is now broken, that yoga system is now lost. So all these interpreters, they are interpreting in their own way. Therefore it is lost. So there is no use of consulting this lost version. Indian man (3): : So you just give it as it is. *Prabhupāda: That is . . . therefore my Bhagavad*-gītā is named Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . No interpretation. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Each verse is the original Sanskrit śloka , English transliteration, word*-by-word meaning, so there's no room for manipulation. There's a translation and purport. Every book that Śrīla Prabhupāda has written has the same format, and each book is illustrated. Indian man (3): : Do you believe that the *Gītā* should be followed as it is, or interpretation is another thing? *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. If you read somebody's book, you must read the author's version. Why should you bring interpretation? This is . . . you have no business. If you want to say something of your philosophy, you can say, but why do you take Bhagavad*-gītā and give your own interpretation? That is very bad. Indian man (3): : But can you not apply your own philosophy . . . *Prabhupāda: Why? Why should you? If you take Bhagavad*-gītā , you should speak what Bhagavad-gītā is saying. And interpretation is required when the thing is not understood clearly. There you get interpretation. Unnecessarily, why should you interpret Bhagavad-gītā ? You have no right. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). So anyone can understand there is a place Kurukṣetra still. Why should you interpret, "Kurukṣetra means this body and this and that"? Why? What is the necessity? Do you think there is necessity? Indian man (3): : But just as . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all let us settle, that Bhagavad*-gītā begins: *So Mahābhārata is the history, and there was Battle of Kurukṣetra. And that Kurukṣetra is mentioned there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and it is dharma-kṣetra since Vedic age. So the word used, dharma-kṣetre and kuru-kṣetre , it is completely understood. Why should you interpret, unless you have got a motive? And why a sane man accepts that interpretation? If you have got a different philosophy, you can write your own book. Why should you cheat others, taking Bhagavad-gītā and interpreting in your own way? This has spoiled the whole thing. And Kṛṣṇa says that as soon as you deviate from the disciplic succession system, then it will be lost. So what is the use of reading something which is already lost? If I want to supply you something food, it must be fresh and palatable. Then you'll enjoy. But if it is rotten, decomposed, and if we supply you that foodstuff, what you will enjoy, and what you will get benefit out of it? Indian man (2): Most Hindus, they are not properly able to understand Kṛṣṇa direct. Prabhupāda: No, I have already explained that when you cannot understand, then you interpret. But when it is clearly understood, why should you interpret? Indian man (2): How you explain the act of Kṛṣṇa taking away the sārīs of the gopīs? *Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then go to the sārī of gopī . You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa and you are going to His gopīs. This is another malinterpretation. You are studying Bhagavad-gītā . Talk of that. In the Bhagavad-gītā the gopīs' sārīs are not mentioned. So why you are bringing gopīs' sārīs now? This is our fault. Indian man (2): Normally, you know, our people . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. This is our fault There is no mention of gopīs' sārīs . We are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā , why you are bringing gopīs' sārīs ? Indian man (2): Because that . . . *Prabhupāda: Again "because." There is no subject matter there. You have no right to bring that. That is our fault—to bring a horse before a cart. We are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā . There is no mention of Kṛṣṇa and gopīs' sārīs there. So let us talk. Finish that. Indian man (3): : So you clearly said that interpretation is wrong. Prabhupāda: Interpretation means lost. Indian man (3): : No, no. You clearly said that interpretation is wrong. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): : What has been done all these years? Prabhupāda: If you have done all these years wrong, that does it not right. If all of them have done wrong, then combined together it does not become right. Indian man (3): : Will you repeat your . . . Prabhupāda: I mean to say if everyone has done wrong, then combined together will it become right? Hundreds of zeros will make one? It will remain zero. It will not be effective. Kṛṣṇa says, sa kālena yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . And what is the next line? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . Prabhupāda: Then? Next line? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya (BG 4.3). Prabhupāda: Sa eva ayam yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. "Therefore I am saying you again the old yoga system. It is not that because the time has changed, I am changing it." Somebody says: "Now it was spoken some millions of years ago. Now it is modern ways, I am explaining in the modern way." That is not the system. The system is, "I am speaking the same yoga system," yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. And they are modernizing, making compromise. That is naṣṭa . That is the defect. Therefore we did not get any benefit. And in the modern countries, before me, so many yogīs, svāmīs have been there for the last two hundred years. *Not a single person became a Hindu. Now they are calling "American Hindus." Why? Because it was lost. Rotten thing was given. Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . If you supply something to me which is rotten and decomposed, such foodstuff, what shall I get benefit? Now they are getting benefit. Our mission is to put Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission that He said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Every one of you become a guru and deliver these persons, these fallen conditioned souls." That is your business. Now you can say, or I can say that, "How can I become guru ? I have no education, I have no talent. How can I become guru ?" The answer is, yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). You simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said, you become a guru . So we are doing like that. We haven't got to manufacture. We haven't got to take so much trouble or create it by our fertile brain. We are simply repeating what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. And see how it is effective. Indian man (1): Do you mean it that a man who is under so much tension can . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, try to see the distinction. Before me, so many people went. They misinterpreted Bhagavad*-gītā , there was no effect. And we are not misinterpreting. We are simply presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is given. That is the point. Everyone says: "Swāmījī, you have done wonderful thing." But I say: "I do not know any magic, jugglery. But wonderful thing is that I have not adulterated." That is wonderful. Otherwise, nothing wonderful. What I am saying? Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ (BG 9.34). I am creating them bhaktas , that's all. I am starting these temples and ask them that, "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. You become devotee, you always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. And they are giving up everything. Their father and mother, they are thinking, "They are our lost child." They are now giving the opposition. They have brought so many cases against me. *But unless it is effective, how they are feeling the weight? Now these boys, their father, mother constantly kidnap them, "Stay here." No, they will not stay. They'll not eat with their father, mother. So they think that, "Our son is lost." Other yogīs and svāmīs go, they give some method. And the son is there at home, "All right, a young man is going there." But here, their son is lost. Here their son is lost, and they are now called "American Hindus." So naturally they are very much against me. And counter movement is going on. They induce the government that, "This is not a religion. The svāmī knows some mind*-controlling power, and he's brainwashing." In this way, there is charge. So because America has got freedom of religion, so if they accept my movement as Hindu religion, they cannot do anything. The people are free to accept. But they are giving in a different charge, that I have manufactured something, that "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling—how people can accept all these things? They're brainwashed." There are so many charges. But anyone who comes to me, I don't make any compromise. Yes . . . (end) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is the author of all these books that you see. These books are being translated in every major language of the world. Indian man (1): How many books in number? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Eighty*-four books of about four hundred pages each. Indian man (2): How many in vernacular languages printing? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About twenty*-one different languages they have been translated. Indian man (2): In India? Indian languages? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, international. French, Italian . . . Indian man (2): In India? Indian languages? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati, Tamil, Oriya, Bengali, Gujarati . . . every major Indian language. Indian man (1): Can you tell us the different subjects covered by the . . .? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's Vedic subjects. It's the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . *Prabhupāda: We are stressing especially on Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Indian man (2): You have printed outside India? Indian man (3): : Do you have special on each chapter of *Gītā* ? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Each word. You can show Bhagavad*-gītā . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a very authoritative presentation. For example, here's the original Sanskrit śloka , word for word . . . *Indian man (3): : (indistinct) . . . different . . . (indistinct) . . . for example, sāṅkhya*-yoga . You have a separate book? Then sthita-prajñā . You have a separate . . .? *Prabhupāda: No separately. It is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Indian man (3): : But that way, your volumes are dealing with each chapter of *Gītā* ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Each śloka . Each chapter. Guest (2): No, no. Not inside the book. Different volumes. Like eighteen chapters, but eighteen volumes. Prabhupāda: No, no. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. It's in one book. Twelve hundred pages. Indian man (3): : And the interpretation is by you yourself? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not interpretation. I am explaining as it is. You can read one. Indian man (3): : Have you tried to compare with *Gītā* written by Gyaneshvara, or by Vinoba Bhave or by somebody else? *Prabhupāda: According to Bhagavad*-gītā , if you don't follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā , you may be very learned scholar, whatever you write, it is lost. We follow that principle. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ ( BG 4.2). (aside) Find out this Fourth Chapter. Indian man (2): Have these books been reviewed in foreign papers? Prabhupāda: It is very widely read. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For example, in the Fourth Chapter Lord Kṛṣṇa says: *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that this Bhagavad*-gītā has to be received by the disciplic succession. And sa kālena yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . Because that disciplic succession is now broken, that yoga system is now lost. So all these interpreters, they are interpreting in their own way. Therefore it is lost. So there is no use of consulting this lost version. Indian man (3): : So you just give it as it is. *Prabhupāda: That is . . . therefore my Bhagavad*-gītā is named Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . No interpretation. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Each verse is the original Sanskrit śloka , English transliteration, word*-by-word meaning, so there's no room for manipulation. There's a translation and purport. Every book that Śrīla Prabhupāda has written has the same format, and each book is illustrated. Indian man (3): : Do you believe that the *Gītā* should be followed as it is, or interpretation is another thing? *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. If you read somebody's book, you must read the author's version. Why should you bring interpretation? This is . . . you have no business. If you want to say something of your philosophy, you can say, but why do you take Bhagavad*-gītā and give your own interpretation? That is very bad. Indian man (3): : But can you not apply your own philosophy . . . *Prabhupāda: Why? Why should you? If you take Bhagavad*-gītā , you should speak what Bhagavad-gītā is saying. And interpretation is required when the thing is not understood clearly. There you get interpretation. Unnecessarily, why should you interpret Bhagavad-gītā ? You have no right. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). So anyone can understand there is a place Kurukṣetra still. Why should you interpret, "Kurukṣetra means this body and this and that"? Why? What is the necessity? Do you think there is necessity? Indian man (3): : But just as . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all let us settle, that Bhagavad*-gītā begins: *So Mahābhārata is the history, and there was Battle of Kurukṣetra. And that Kurukṣetra is mentioned there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and it is dharma-kṣetra since Vedic age. So the word used, dharma-kṣetre and kuru-kṣetre , it is completely understood. Why should you interpret, unless you have got a motive? And why a sane man accepts that interpretation? If you have got a different philosophy, you can write your own book. Why should you cheat others, taking Bhagavad-gītā and interpreting in your own way? This has spoiled the whole thing. And Kṛṣṇa says that as soon as you deviate from the disciplic succession system, then it will be lost. So what is the use of reading something which is already lost? If I want to supply you something food, it must be fresh and palatable. Then you'll enjoy. But if it is rotten, decomposed, and if we supply you that foodstuff, what you will enjoy, and what you will get benefit out of it? Indian man (2): Most Hindus, they are not properly able to understand Kṛṣṇa direct. Prabhupāda: No, I have already explained that when you cannot understand, then you interpret. But when it is clearly understood, why should you interpret? Indian man (2): How you explain the act of Kṛṣṇa taking away the sārīs of the gopīs? *Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then go to the sārī of gopī . You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa and you are going to His gopīs. This is another malinterpretation. You are studying Bhagavad-gītā . Talk of that. In the Bhagavad-gītā the gopīs' sārīs are not mentioned. So why you are bringing gopīs' sārīs now? This is our fault. Indian man (2): Normally, you know, our people . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. This is our fault There is no mention of gopīs' sārīs . We are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā , why you are bringing gopīs' sārīs ? Indian man (2): Because that . . . *Prabhupāda: Again "because." There is no subject matter there. You have no right to bring that. That is our fault—to bring a horse before a cart. We are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā . There is no mention of Kṛṣṇa and gopīs' sārīs there. So let us talk. Finish that. Indian man (3): : So you clearly said that interpretation is wrong. Prabhupāda: Interpretation means lost. Indian man (3): : No, no. You clearly said that interpretation is wrong. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): : What has been done all these years? Prabhupāda: If you have done all these years wrong, that does it not right. If all of them have done wrong, then combined together it does not become right. Indian man (3): : Will you repeat your . . . Prabhupāda: I mean to say if everyone has done wrong, then combined together will it become right? Hundreds of zeros will make one? It will remain zero. It will not be effective. Kṛṣṇa says, sa kālena yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . And what is the next line? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . Prabhupāda: Then? Next line? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya (BG 4.3). Prabhupāda: Sa eva ayam yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. "Therefore I am saying you again the old yoga system. It is not that because the time has changed, I am changing it." Somebody says: "Now it was spoken some millions of years ago. Now it is modern ways, I am explaining in the modern way." That is not the system. The system is, "I am speaking the same yoga system," yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. And they are modernizing, making compromise. That is naṣṭa . That is the defect. Therefore we did not get any benefit. And in the modern countries, before me, so many yogīs, svāmīs have been there for the last two hundred years. *Not a single person became a Hindu. Now they are calling "American Hindus." Why? Because it was lost. Rotten thing was given. Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . If you supply something to me which is rotten and decomposed, such foodstuff, what shall I get benefit? Now they are getting benefit. Our mission is to put Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission that He said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Every one of you become a guru and deliver these persons, these fallen conditioned souls." That is your business. Now you can say, or I can say that, "How can I become guru ? I have no education, I have no talent. How can I become guru ?" The answer is, yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). You simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said, you become a guru . So we are doing like that. We haven't got to manufacture. We haven't got to take so much trouble or create it by our fertile brain. We are simply repeating what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. And see how it is effective. Indian man (1): Do you mean it that a man who is under so much tension can . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, try to see the distinction. Before me, so many people went. They misinterpreted Bhagavad*-gītā , there was no effect. And we are not misinterpreting. We are simply presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is given. That is the point. Everyone says: "Swāmījī, you have done wonderful thing." But I say: "I do not know any magic, jugglery. But wonderful thing is that I have not adulterated." That is wonderful. Otherwise, nothing wonderful. What I am saying? Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ (BG 9.34). I am creating them bhaktas , that's all. I am starting these temples and ask them that, "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. You become devotee, you always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. And they are giving up everything. Their father and mother, they are thinking, "They are our lost child." They are now giving the opposition. They have brought so many cases against me. *But unless it is effective, how they are feeling the weight? Now these boys, their father, mother constantly kidnap them, "Stay here." No, they will not stay. They'll not eat with their father, mother. So they think that, "Our son is lost." Other yogīs and svāmīs go, they give some method. And the son is there at home, "All right, a young man is going there." But here, their son is lost. Here their son is lost, and they are now called "American Hindus." So naturally they are very much against me. And counter movement is going on. They induce the government that, "This is not a religion. The svāmī knows some mind*-controlling power, and he's brainwashing." In this way, there is charge. So because America has got freedom of religion, so if they accept my movement as Hindu religion, they cannot do anything. The people are free to accept. But they are giving in a different charge, that I have manufactured something, that "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling—how people can accept all these things? They're brainwashed." There are so many charges. But anyone who comes to me, I don't make any compromise. Yes . . . (end) Girirāja: . . . cannot accept anything artificial, but Mr. Vijaya cannot keep up to that standard. Prabhupāda: Vinoba Bhave is also not cent percent. Girirāja: Oh, I know. But by chance, on this particular point . . . *Prabhupāda: He has written book, Bhagavad*-gītā Pravacana . But in his bhāṣya there is no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . So what is this Bhagavad-gītā Pravacana? Why he has avoided kṛṣṇa-bhakti? What is the reason? Girirāja: He's envious. *Prabhupāda: Gandhi has . . . the same thing. Bhagavad*-gītā . . . he is writing essays on Bhagavad-gītā and the main principle of Bhagavad-gītā , man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru ( BG 18.65), mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). What is that? Girirāja: Mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo 'si me. Prabhupāda: So where is that? Girirāja: They don't follow. *Prabhupāda: This is their defect. Therefore they are failure. Must be failure. They do not take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. They mix with their false ideas, and therefore spoil, adulterate. And bhagavad-bhakti is without adulteration. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167). Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). Pure. No adulteration. That is bhakti . Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). That is not nirmalam . Sa mala it is. With mala . With mala . Mala . It cannot be. Proportionately. So where she has sent this article? Girirāja: In some of the newspapers in Vidor, and maybe Nagpur. He's writing for about three or five copies of those original clippings. Prabhupāda: He has written very nicely. Good writer. Picked up the essence of the movement. That was published. Isko chapo. (Print this.) Indian man: Isko? (This?) Prabhupāda: So distribute them. (all talking together) Ye jab se hamare hindu magazine chape aisa kisi me bhi nahi hai. (Since our Hindu magazines have been printed, there has been no mention like this anywhere . . .) . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhāgavata Darśana? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Next issue. This issue is almost finished. Next one. Prabhupāda: Just stop this light. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct conversation with Girirāja) Gujarati. *Girirāja: Then it won't be just for Kumbha*-melā. Prabhupāda wanted it for Kumbha-melā. (break) Indian man: Well, I don't know. It will be a big program there from part of Madhava Mission. They've spent four lakhs rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They never . . . I never thought they had so much money even for their own projects. Indian man: They collect from the big sects . . . (indistinct) . . . he is very influenced. Any of the sects can give for this. For Kumbha Mela, all the Marwari want to wash off their all the sins they did. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: So explain with that purpose. At least, they are . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) You cannot give up these four things: yajña, dāna, tapasya . So yajña for the brahmacārīs , begin yajña . And dāna for the gṛhasthas , and tapasya for the sannyāsīs . Yajña*-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ na tyājyam , Kṛṣṇa says. Do not give up this, "I have become sannyāsī , therefore I'll give up my tapasya also." Sannyāsī means the life of tapasya . If you give up tapasya also, then what remains? How you become a sannyāsa ? Yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ na tyājyaṁ kāryam eva tat (BG 18.5). It must be continued. And again He stresses, yajño dānaṁ tapaś krya pāvanāni manīṣiṇām . Even if you think that you have become very great, "Now I'm very exalted personality. I don't require. I have become paramahaṁsa ," no, no, no, no. This yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ , even if you are very exalted, still, it will purify you more, these things. Yajño dānaṁ tapaś kriyāḥ pāvanāni manīṣiṇām . In any condition of life these things cannot be given up. *So those who are in sense, gṛhasthas , they must give in charity, at least fifty percent of their income. That was shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He, fifty percent. Dānam means not to the daridra*-nārāyaṇa . Dānam means to the brāhmaṇa , Vaiṣṇava. In our śāstra , charity is recommended to be given to the high-class men, brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas. They know how to spend money. Therefore dātavyam iti yad dānaṁ tad dānaṁ sāttvikam ucyate (BG 17.20). Just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are appreciating. So all the charity should come here. Then it is properly utilized. Because we do not use a single paisa for anything of sense gratification. We do not even smoke, we do not take tea, we lie down on the floor. Not a single paisa is spent for our sense gratification. Everything is utilized for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore all charity should come here. Properly spent. But if we misspend, that is our fault. Single paisa we spend for our sense gratification, that is fault of us. And people should give at least fifty percent of their income to this movement. Twenty-five percent to the family, and twenty-five percent let him keep for himself in case of emergency. *This is the example shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. So there was emergency. Everything they showed practically. Sanātana Gosvāmī was arrested. Whatever money they kept for themselves, that was given as bribe to the jail superintendent and got out of jail. This is example given by Gosvāmīs, that fifty percent was given to the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, fifty percent they deposited with the local . . . formerly, the bāniyās were bankers, village bankers. Whatever one has got, extra money, they should deposit, and the bāniyās will give him some interest and utilize the money. He will not usurp the money. People believe, just like bank, everywhere, crores of rupees they are collecting daily, because people know, "As soon as I shall want the money, it will be paid." So bāniyās were very honest. By others' money they would prosper, and the money is ready. Because they were doing with commodities, even he has no cash money he can immediately sell something and pay. That was the credit. That was the credit. Then people believed them. The village bankers were these grocers, especially the gold merchants. Therefore the gold merchants were bankers and dealers in gold. Suvarṇa*-vaṇik . They had position. They have got stock of ornaments, gold ornaments, silver utensils. So you can believe in him, that by putting in his custody one hundred, one thousand rupees, he can deliver, at any moment, the bankers. And Rūpa Gosvāmī did it practically. Some money for emergency, some money . . . relatives, they also expect. That is allowed. So they should be given something. Not that cent percent. At least twenty-five percent to the relatives and twenty-five percent for personal. And fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa. This is the system. *So this is called dānam . Kṛṣṇa also says, kuruṣva tad mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27): "If you want to give in charity, give it to Me." Kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam . Dadāsi yat. "If you have got some capacity to give something, give it to Me." He never said to daridra-nārāyaṇa . I do not know how they manufacture these things. Kṛṣṇa says: "Give it to Me." He's not daridra. He's Nārāyaṇa, but He's not daridra. So the principle is to give to the richest Nārāyaṇa, not daridra-nārāyaṇa . But these rascals misinterpret that daridra has become Nārāyaṇa. How daridra can become Nārāyaṇa? This is going on. And therefore there is no effect. There is no effect. See from practical what Vivekananda has done? But they have made propaganda, false propaganda—they have got roads. In a city like Bombay, big road, Vivekananda. But they do not care what Vivekananda has done. Indian devotee: Even they got road, in the road so many nonsense going on. Prabhupāda: That every road is there. We have no such thing. But he's not recognized in . . . wherefrom he has got the advertisement that in America he has done tremendous work? What they have done? Girirāja: The government may like to popularize him because he preached the cult of "work hard." Prabhupāda: What "work hard" he has . . . (indistinct) Indian man: He can't do anything himself. Indian devotee: Other day one man was telling me they bought two of your Bhāgavatams , Ramakrishna Mission. He said that one Ranganath Swami from South India, from Hyderabad, he was lecturing there, but he was . . . when he was lecturing he had your *Bhāgavatam* , First Canto, Part One in his hand, and he was speaking from there. (laughter) I said it is very good. Prabhupāda: Aap kidhar se aye hain? (Where have you come from?) Indian man: Mathura, Vrindavan. Prabhupāda: Accha. (I see.) Give him prasāda . Ye prasad pake jaiyega. (Have this prasadam and go.) Indian devotee: Many ācāryas , they imitate you. They read your books and take some of this part, and what is useful for them they use on their lecture. How we should stop them? (break) Hari-śauri: At least part of the lecture's going to be all right. (laughs) Prabhupāda: They cannot utilize my writing in their favor. Indian devotee: No, some of the thing they take for their favor. They glory their own. They read your books and they glorify their own. Prabhupāda: No, that is not . . . Indian devotee:': So we should stop them like that. Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't stop. They cannot do it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It means that Prabhupāda has influenced them to say what Prabhupāda has written. Prabhupāda: Ranganath was speaking from my book? Indian devotee: Yes, he was quoting that śloka , I remember, from First Canto, Part One. That one our Life Members . . . they were all the . . . all the big people, they goes there. So he told me when he came, he took a *Bhāgavatam* . He said that, "Today Ranganath had read your book." I said that they had bought two books from me. He said that he opened that like this. Then he saw the cover of our book, so he was quoting śloka from that, and he was reading the purport and giving speech on that. Because there is no such edition in English on *Bhāgavatam* except yours. So that I was very much pleased, actually, there to know when I heard that. Prabhupāda: In the beginning also they purchased. When I published three copies in Delhi they purchased, because such translation is not there. So, that is all. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Girirāja: . . . cannot accept anything artificial, but Mr. Vijaya cannot keep up to that standard. Prabhupāda: Vinoba Bhave is also not cent percent. Girirāja: Oh, I know. But by chance, on this particular point . . . *Prabhupāda: He has written book, Bhagavad*-gītā Pravacana . But in his bhāṣya there is no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . So what is this Bhagavad-gītā Pravacana? Why he has avoided kṛṣṇa-bhakti? What is the reason? Girirāja: He's envious. *Prabhupāda: Gandhi has . . . the same thing. Bhagavad*-gītā . . . he is writing essays on Bhagavad-gītā and the main principle of Bhagavad-gītā , man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru ( BG 18.65), mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). What is that? Girirāja: Mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo 'si me. Prabhupāda: So where is that? Girirāja: They don't follow. *Prabhupāda: This is their defect. Therefore they are failure. Must be failure. They do not take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. They mix with their false ideas, and therefore spoil, adulterate. And bhagavad-bhakti is without adulteration. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167). Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). Pure. No adulteration. That is bhakti . Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). That is not nirmalam . Sa mala it is. With mala . With mala . Mala . It cannot be. Proportionately. So where she has sent this article? Girirāja: In some of the newspapers in Vidor, and maybe Nagpur. He's writing for about three or five copies of those original clippings. Prabhupāda: He has written very nicely. Good writer. Picked up the essence of the movement. That was published. Isko chapo. (Print this.) Indian man: Isko? (This?) Prabhupāda: So distribute them. (all talking together) Ye jab se hamare hindu magazine chape aisa kisi me bhi nahi hai. (Since our Hindu magazines have been printed, there has been no mention like this anywhere . . .) . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhāgavata Darśana? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Next issue. This issue is almost finished. Next one. Prabhupāda: Just stop this light. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct conversation with Girirāja) Gujarati. *Girirāja: Then it won't be just for Kumbha*-melā. Prabhupāda wanted it for Kumbha-melā. (break) Indian man: Well, I don't know. It will be a big program there from part of Madhava Mission. They've spent four lakhs rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They never . . . I never thought they had so much money even for their own projects. Indian man: They collect from the big sects . . . (indistinct) . . . he is very influenced. Any of the sects can give for this. For Kumbha Mela, all the Marwari want to wash off their all the sins they did. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: So explain with that purpose. At least, they are . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) You cannot give up these four things: yajña, dāna, tapasya . So yajña for the brahmacārīs , begin yajña . And dāna for the gṛhasthas , and tapasya for the sannyāsīs . Yajña*-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ na tyājyam , Kṛṣṇa says. Do not give up this, "I have become sannyāsī , therefore I'll give up my tapasya also." Sannyāsī means the life of tapasya . If you give up tapasya also, then what remains? How you become a sannyāsa ? Yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ na tyājyaṁ kāryam eva tat (BG 18.5). It must be continued. And again He stresses, yajño dānaṁ tapaś krya pāvanāni manīṣiṇām . Even if you think that you have become very great, "Now I'm very exalted personality. I don't require. I have become paramahaṁsa ," no, no, no, no. This yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ , even if you are very exalted, still, it will purify you more, these things. Yajño dānaṁ tapaś kriyāḥ pāvanāni manīṣiṇām . In any condition of life these things cannot be given up. *So those who are in sense, gṛhasthas , they must give in charity, at least fifty percent of their income. That was shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He, fifty percent. Dānam means not to the daridra*-nārāyaṇa . Dānam means to the brāhmaṇa , Vaiṣṇava. In our śāstra , charity is recommended to be given to the high-class men, brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas. They know how to spend money. Therefore dātavyam iti yad dānaṁ tad dānaṁ sāttvikam ucyate (BG 17.20). Just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are appreciating. So all the charity should come here. Then it is properly utilized. Because we do not use a single paisa for anything of sense gratification. We do not even smoke, we do not take tea, we lie down on the floor. Not a single paisa is spent for our sense gratification. Everything is utilized for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore all charity should come here. Properly spent. But if we misspend, that is our fault. Single paisa we spend for our sense gratification, that is fault of us. And people should give at least fifty percent of their income to this movement. Twenty-five percent to the family, and twenty-five percent let him keep for himself in case of emergency. *This is the example shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. So there was emergency. Everything they showed practically. Sanātana Gosvāmī was arrested. Whatever money they kept for themselves, that was given as bribe to the jail superintendent and got out of jail. This is example given by Gosvāmīs, that fifty percent was given to the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, fifty percent they deposited with the local . . . formerly, the bāniyās were bankers, village bankers. Whatever one has got, extra money, they should deposit, and the bāniyās will give him some interest and utilize the money. He will not usurp the money. People believe, just like bank, everywhere, crores of rupees they are collecting daily, because people know, "As soon as I shall want the money, it will be paid." So bāniyās were very honest. By others' money they would prosper, and the money is ready. Because they were doing with commodities, even he has no cash money he can immediately sell something and pay. That was the credit. That was the credit. Then people believed them. The village bankers were these grocers, especially the gold merchants. Therefore the gold merchants were bankers and dealers in gold. Suvarṇa*-vaṇik . They had position. They have got stock of ornaments, gold ornaments, silver utensils. So you can believe in him, that by putting in his custody one hundred, one thousand rupees, he can deliver, at any moment, the bankers. And Rūpa Gosvāmī did it practically. Some money for emergency, some money . . . relatives, they also expect. That is allowed. So they should be given something. Not that cent percent. At least twenty-five percent to the relatives and twenty-five percent for personal. And fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa. This is the system. *So this is called dānam . Kṛṣṇa also says, kuruṣva tad mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27): "If you want to give in charity, give it to Me." Kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam . Dadāsi yat. "If you have got some capacity to give something, give it to Me." He never said to daridra-nārāyaṇa . I do not know how they manufacture these things. Kṛṣṇa says: "Give it to Me." He's not daridra. He's Nārāyaṇa, but He's not daridra. So the principle is to give to the richest Nārāyaṇa, not daridra-nārāyaṇa . But these rascals misinterpret that daridra has become Nārāyaṇa. How daridra can become Nārāyaṇa? This is going on. And therefore there is no effect. There is no effect. See from practical what Vivekananda has done? But they have made propaganda, false propaganda—they have got roads. In a city like Bombay, big road, Vivekananda. But they do not care what Vivekananda has done. Indian devotee: Even they got road, in the road so many nonsense going on. Prabhupāda: That every road is there. We have no such thing. But he's not recognized in . . . wherefrom he has got the advertisement that in America he has done tremendous work? What they have done? Girirāja: The government may like to popularize him because he preached the cult of "work hard." Prabhupāda: What "work hard" he has . . . (indistinct) Indian man: He can't do anything himself. Indian devotee: Other day one man was telling me they bought two of your Bhāgavatams , Ramakrishna Mission. He said that one Ranganath Swami from South India, from Hyderabad, he was lecturing there, but he was . . . when he was lecturing he had your *Bhāgavatam* , First Canto, Part One in his hand, and he was speaking from there. (laughter) I said it is very good. Prabhupāda: Aap kidhar se aye hain? (Where have you come from?) Indian man: Mathura, Vrindavan. Prabhupāda: Accha. (I see.) Give him prasāda . Ye prasad pake jaiyega. (Have this prasadam and go.) Indian devotee: Many ācāryas , they imitate you. They read your books and take some of this part, and what is useful for them they use on their lecture. How we should stop them? (break) Hari-śauri: At least part of the lecture's going to be all right. (laughs) Prabhupāda: They cannot utilize my writing in their favor. Indian devotee: No, some of the thing they take for their favor. They glory their own. They read your books and they glorify their own. Prabhupāda: No, that is not . . . Indian devotee:': So we should stop them like that. Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't stop. They cannot do it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It means that Prabhupāda has influenced them to say what Prabhupāda has written. Prabhupāda: Ranganath was speaking from my book? Indian devotee: Yes, he was quoting that śloka , I remember, from First Canto, Part One. That one our Life Members . . . they were all the . . . all the big people, they goes there. So he told me when he came, he took a *Bhāgavatam* . He said that, "Today Ranganath had read your book." I said that they had bought two books from me. He said that he opened that like this. Then he saw the cover of our book, so he was quoting śloka from that, and he was reading the purport and giving speech on that. Because there is no such edition in English on *Bhāgavatam* except yours. So that I was very much pleased, actually, there to know when I heard that. Prabhupāda: In the beginning also they purchased. When I published three copies in Delhi they purchased, because such translation is not there. So, that is all. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . so glorious. Glorious. He's glorious. That's all right. But kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī will imitate his behavior, but he is not fixed up. Therefore it is not good for him. He is forbidden. This is . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's forbidden to hear from a nondevotee. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They will commit so many mistakes, and they'll take it for granted. Just like this " nitāi*-gaura-rādhe-śyāma ." That is avoided for kaniṣṭha-adhikārī . There are so many mistakes, rasābhāsa . So two things are there always, two sides: one for the mahā-bhāgavata , one for the ordinary kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī . So in the temple it is to be supposed generally for the madhyama-adhikārī and kaniṣṭha-adhikārī especially. So in the temple we should not . . . Hari-śauri: We should just listen to whatever the ācāryas have . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: I remember once before, a few years ago, you sent a letter out saying that no one should try to compose songs or . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not encourage. What they will compose? They have no realization. But they're speaking something about Kṛṣṇa. That's his beginning. Just like a child, he speaks half*-broken. That is not language. It has no meaning. But still the child, "Ah, ah, you are so nice, you are so nice, you are so nice." Because he's trying to speak something: "Papa, mama." And mama is . . . not that his words are complete. Hari-śauri: When we go out and preach, and we just repeat or try to repeat whatever we've heard from the spiritual master, but we may not have fully realized what we're speaking about, does that somehow or another reduce the potency of the Gītā or the Bhāgavatam or . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, realization takes time. Therefore there is no question of realization. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says you simply repeat as Kṛṣṇa says. That will save you. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just repeating. *Prabhupāda: The so*-called political leaders, they have no realization, but they manufacture their ideas. That is dangerous. Mislead themselves and others. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam ( BG 13.8). This is the process of knowledge. These so-called scholars and politicians, they have no ācārya . Instead of being amānitvam , they're mani . . . "I have become a leader, so whatever I shall say, it will be accepted." This is going on. Very bad. It is clearly said, as soon as you give up the ācārya system it is rotten. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa (BG 4.2). So things which is rotten, what you'll get benefit? That is going on. *Therefore in spite of so many Gītā commentators, big, big leaders, scholars, not a single person is converted into a devotee. Not a single person amongst their followers. It's useless talking. Therefore it is forbidden. Avaiṣṇava*-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtam . . . (Padma Purāṇa). Because they are not Vaiṣṇava, politicians and . . . reject them immediately. Immediately. That is the injunction. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are so respectful. People have got . . . now you have got your svarāja . Please take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and let us preach." *Dr. Patel: Sir, Raj Gopalacharya in his commentary, he has mentioned that Bhagavad*-gītā should be learned through the ācāryas . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: As Gopalacharya has commented. He was a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Raj Gopalacharya was sensible man amongst the whole lot. Dr. Patel: He was a Vaiṣṇava cult. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. Chakravarty. So . . . (indistinct) . . . I say that amongst the whole lot he was a sane man, Raj Gopalacharya. Because by culture he's a Vaiṣṇava. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . agreement with Jawaharlal Nehru. Dr. Patel: He never was in agreement. Prabhupāda: Not a single item. He therefore resigned. He wanted to form his own party. Hari-śauri: Who's that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Raj Gopalacharya. Dr. Patel: If they had followed Raj Gopalacharya this country would have been far better in knowledge. Raj Gopalacharya. That is because he was paraṁ bhakta , to tell the truth, always. *Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate (SB 5.18.12). Therefore he was qualified. Anyway, if you are interested in Bhagavad*-gītā , how you can misinterpret? How you can put your own words to mislead people? How much misleading this is. *Hari-śauri: Actually, they're not interested in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: I knew all these things, but what I am? I have no position. *Dr. Patel: But what you have commented is correct. And the Bhagavad*-gītā , real thing is man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Instead they directed their attention to karma and this and that. It was . . . and similar thing . . . Prabhupāda: But because they did not learn subject matter from ācārya . Dr. Patel: Ācārya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Ācārya . One has to learn from the ācārya . Dr. Patel: Ācārya is one who ācāra , himself practices. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No. One who knows and practices. Ācinoti śāstra . One who knows the real purpose. And there is no difficulty of understanding the real purpose. It is clearly said, everything. The process of knowledge is given, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 13.8). Where is that? In the beginning, "Oh, I am such a big leader, politician. Whatever I say is nice." Dambha. Dambha . Because he's thinking puffed*-up, falsely. Some rascal fools give them clap. (Prabhupāda claps) They think, "Oh, I have become very great." Dr. Patel: Nowadays, sir, they collect people to clap them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Patel: Nowadays the politicians collect them. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. They make such a speech and practice. One political leader, he is young man, he was saying in Hyderabad . . . he was ambassador in . . . that Rao? Hari-śauri: Yes, Motilal Rao. Prabhupāda: So he did not know. He said that, "When I was going to be ambassador, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he told me that, "You first of all write a speech and practice it, and deliver it very nicely. Then they will applaud." This is Dr. Radhakrishnan. They want simply applause. That's all. Because they know, "If the public applauds, then I keep my position. I am . . . whatever nonsense I speak or whatever nonsense I . . . it doesn't matter." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Public support. Prabhupāda: Bās. That is their only business. Hari-śauri: Some of them, they don't even write their own speeches. They have a professional script writer. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professional writer and some speaker. Dr. Patel: All of them . . . (indistinct) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the President of the United States has a speech writer. *Prabhupāda: Learned scholar, English licensed. We know that Madanmohan Malhotra. And in those days Surendranath Bannerji was a great orator. You have heard his name? Surendranath Bannerji. He is the practically father of Indian nationalism. So he was I.C.S., and in those days English scholar. His father was very big doctor, Dr. Dugdhachandra Bannerji. So his speech, this Madanmohan Malhotra used to rote it, cram, and before a mirror he would speak like this, "Oh . . ." In this way he became a politician. He was smārta*-brāhmaṇa and he became a politician, simply by imitating Surendranath Bannerji's speech. Dr. Patel: Even those who are with Baroda Maharaja and all Maharaja's speeches were written by . . . (indistinct) . . . so one can . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is thinking "These are your ideas, Maharaja." "Well, everyone knows that I am writing it. It doesn't matter. I won't correct it." All the speeches given by Maharaja of Baroda was written by . . . (indistinct) . . . all, all, practically all. Here's a reference there. And he was a great scholar after all. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was English*-born. His father was medical man, Dr. Madanmohan Bannerji. Dr. Patel: They say he did not know even Bengali properly. *Prabhupāda: Yes. How he can? He was born in England, educated in England. He was English*-born. Dr. Patel: Then he became a master in Sanskrit. That is a great, I mean, intelligent . . . Prabhupāda: That may be. He was a scholar. They were big scholars. He was professor in Baroda University. Dr. Patel: Professor of French and Philosophy. Prabhupāda: There is one hall, Aurobindo Hall, in Baroda. Dr. Patel: All followers of Aurobindo are Bengalis and Gujaratis. Prabhupāda: Hmm. No, there are others, in foreign countries. He was scholar. *Dr. Patel: In the āśramas Bengalis and Gujaratis will go fifty*-fifty. There are some South Indians also there . . . (indistinct) . . . "You are from India?" He had a very big following of Gujaratis. Prabhupāda: Because he was first in Gujarat. Dr. Patel: Baroda Maharaja, when he, when he did not appear in horse riding test . . . (indistinct) . . . but he did not want to start the competition . . . (indistinct) . . . so he came. So Baroda . . . (indistinct) . . . Maharaja knew he has came. Baroda Maharaja was in England then. He called him, saying . . . (indistinct) . . . the same thing as the Britishers did at Baroda. That is, Baroda Maharaja was appreciated. Prabhupāda: No, he was a person to be appreciated. There is no doubt. He had so many qualifications. But he was also doing yoga practice. When he was put into . . . no, after getting released from jail, twelve years. He was to be hanged. Dr. Patel: C. R. Das. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: It was said that the man who was judge was his classmate in Cambridge, Oxford, or something like that. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Dr. Patel: C. R. Das made a very good speech. I have read all about what he . . . (indistinct) . . . for practicing yoga in jail. When he has himself written when he came to the minister's court. He felt that everywhere was Kṛṣṇa. Everyone was . . . he was seeing Kṛṣṇa everywhere. That was his feeling. So he would not be punished by anybody. But God is everywhere, even . . . (indistinct) . . . his brother was transported to the . . . he was to be hanged, and then he was transported to . . . (indistinct) . . . the Bengalis . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) This is the fact, that yato mata tato patha , whatever path you accept, that is authorized. He said that. Do you think it is bona fide? Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam , and he approves anything. Dr. Patel: He was a partial political leader also. Prabhupāda: That's all. He's a political leader. Dr. Patel: But then he had a great burning desire to see that India be free of British purpose. He was a real nationalist . . . *Prabhupāda: That even cats and dogs, they also want that, "My cats be well fed and be strong." That is not a very good position. And Bhagavad*-gītā says, aratiḥ putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu (BG 13.10). This is philosophy. And if one is attached to his homely happiness, he's not even a man of knowledge. Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: When Vivekananda came back from foreign tours, he brought three women, and one woman was intimately connected with him. Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You, you have seen yourself. Why there was no men in America? He came back . . . Dr. Patel: I think he was a brahmacārī throughout. Prabhupāda: You do not know. There is an old man . . . some old woman, he said about he's connected. Dr. Patel: Subash Candra Bose . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Marriage is good. But to keep illicit sex, that's the most sinful activity. Marriage is allowed. Dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi (BG 7.11). That is not against. Dr. Patel: Great number of luminaries have been produced by Bengal. Last year we read in Times of India more luminaries were produced in Bengal than any other Indian province. Prabhupāda: No, Bengal . . . they maintained the culture. But therefore I say that Vivekananda broke that Bengali culture. *Dr. Patel: Bengali culture is fish*-eating. Even Brāhmiṇs eating. Prabhupāda: No. They are eating fish only. Because Bengal is full of rivers. But not for all. Mass of people, that's a fact. But he introduced, "You can eat anything. It has nothing to do with religion." In Bengal in our childhood we have seen if anyone was habituated to take meat . . . the common man would not. Rich man. The rich men they have their sahis. Sahis you know, who takes care of the horse. So he would cook in the horse shed. Dr. Patel: And eat there. Prabhupāda: No. Then he'll bring the . . . (indistinct) . . . and eat it. It was never brought within the precincts of the house. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) . . . Gujarat and Maharashtra . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no . . . these people who were eating meat, they knew that "I am doing wrong." But Vivekananda approved, "No, it is not wrong." It is wrong. "Whatever you like, you can do." Then they began to eat meat. Fish they were already eating. Meat and chicken and eggs and everything. Dr. Patel: All the sons of Vallabhācārya's followers are eating. Prabhupāda: No, everyone is eating. I know that. Therefore our first regulation is you must give it up. Then we talk of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Patel: My son . . . (indistinct) . . . he does not even eat tomatoes, saying that if you . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Tomato was not taken. Dr. Patel: No, no. That is what he says: "I won't eat." He does not eat because his mother was 100% vegetarian, and we would not allow even . . . Prabhupāda: In our childhood no one would eat the tomato. It is not . . . it is red color, but everything vilāti . It is called vilāti baigun . So no one would touch. Hari-śauri: Tomato? Prabhupāda: There was prejudice, because it was brought from . . . even potato. Strict Hindu would not take potato. Potato was imported from England. It was not produced . . . just like tulasī. Tulasī plant we have imported, exported. Similarly, so many things . . . Dr. Patel: They have not allowed tulasī to be grown in America. Prabhupāda: Oh, no? Who said? Dr. Patel: Mr. Shaheb . . . (indistinct) . . . tulasī plant for his daughter. Prabhupāda: No, we have got so many tulasī plants. Hari-śauri: Every one of our centers has so many tulasīs . *Prabhupāda: Every temple we have got big, big tulasī . Especially Hawaii we have got six*-feet-high tulasī . Dr. Patel: I have . . . (indistinct) . . . they won't allow plant. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is agriculture. You cannot take any plant. Not only tulasī. Any plant from India. Dr. Patel: You may take away the diseases. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Not only tulasī plant, any plant you cannot take. You cannot take any vegetables. There is agricultural restriction. Dr. Patel: But I think tulasī can be grown in all the countries. Even in the cold. Prabhupāda: In the cold countries with little care. Dr. Patel: England? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got tulasī . Dr. Patel: You may have to keep it in hothouse during winter. Prabhupāda: Yes. We make that arrangement. And what Vivekananda said, that "It is better to water eggplant tree. Why tulasī plant? What you will get?" Eggplant tree means you'll get some eggplant, baigun . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . this is his culture. "Make your body strong and stout by eating meat, and there is nothing to do with the . . ." Dr. Patel: The result will be the same as Gandhi's . . . (indistinct) . . . this slaughterhouse, so abominable and so horrible. When I first came to Bombay from my village and I had to pass through that railway, that nasty butcher house. It was so horrible smelling, and those vultures sitting on the . . . I became spite of myself, when I came in Bombay. I had to join the grammatical college here. Prabhupāda: You were . . . two thousand years ago, Christ, he was born in Jewish family, he was horrified by seeing animal sacrifices in the synagogue. Therefore his first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." He was so horrified. Why he has given this commandment? He was so much horrified: "What is this?" Therefore he gave up the Jewish religion. He started his own. This is the history. And he, first commandment, "Thou shall not kill." Dr. Patel: And the Jews were killing the pigeons in the temple. Prabhupāda: They are very expert in killing. Dr. Patel: I don't know how the religiosity could even . . . Prabhupāda: So where is religion? Dr. Patel: They have misinterpreted religion. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavatam has criticized all so*-called religion. Dr. Patel: One patient of mine, Sardar Patel, he's a old . . . (indistinct) . . . from Hindus and Muslim. And . . . (indistinct) . . . what they call it, killing of their . . . Prabhupāda: Muslims are also restricted . . . (break) . . . for some purpose. Therefore they are called karmīs . Actually, it is for satisfying Viṣṇu. Without Viṣṇu's satisfaction nothing can be done. So those who are desiring some material grants, they used to perform this ritualistic ceremonies. It is not for the devotee. Dr. Patel: For devotee, Kṛṣṇa has said: "I am yajña , and I am also hutam , and I am also performer of yajña ." Prabhupāda: Yes. Because He gives the intelligence. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). Unless He gives smṛti , he cannot chant the mantra . "Therefore actually I am performer." Dr. Patel: Ahaṁ kratur ahaṁ yajñaḥ . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore He says: "I am performer. If I give him instruction, he does something, so he is not doing, I am doing. I say: 'Do like this,' and he does like that, then he's not performer; *I am performer." So whatever mantra they are chanting, if Kṛṣṇa does not give him intelligence, he cannot do that. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). "Everyone, whatever we are doing, it is being supplied, the intelligence, the everything, but according to My desires." So I cannot do anything independently. Just like we are constructing, practically, with the sanction of the Municipality, the sanction of the government. Independently I cannot do. Similarly, we cannot anything without sanction of God. But that sanction is, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). I insist, "God, give me this facility, give me this facility." "All right. You do it at your risk." But God says that, "You don't do this." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). "What I say, you do. Then you'll be happy. What I dictate, you do. But you are dictating Me. Because you are My son, what can I do? All right. Do it." Dr. Patel: (laughs) "I grant you whatever you . . ." *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the position. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasām (BG 7.23). "Because you are rascal, less intelligent, you are doing this, but this will not endure. You'll be a failure. Better what I say, you do. Then you'll be happy." This is the whole instruction. "You cannot do without My sanction. But you are insisting. What can I do? All right. Do it." Dr. Patel: "I grant you. And take the fruit and realize." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He's there. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni (BG 18.61). If you have done, then you must suffer or enjoy. That's all. That is your business. You get . . . "Now you have created a karma . You have to enjoy it by accepting a certain type of body. Now you take it. I ask māyā , 'Give him this body. He wants to eat stool.' 'All right. Give him the body of a hog.' " Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. The yantra , the body, is supplied by māyā under the order. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate (BG 9.10). Everything is there. But these things they do not preach. They preach unnecessarily nonviolence. From Bhagavad-gītā , which is being taught in the battlefield, and Gandhi wants to draw some meaning, nonviolence. Immediately it is . . . what is the value? Not only Gandhi, everyone. If he can give a new interpretation . . . I think in Bombay, was there any Dr. Reilly? He wrote some Bhagavad-gītā commentary as . . . Dr. Patel: I think it's not that Reilly. Not that Reilly, Dr. Reilly, but there is another Reilly in Baroda who taught . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Dr. Patel: . . . sanskrit to . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. He has interpreted Bhagavad*-gītā , patient and physician. Dr. Patel: Patient and physician. That may be this Reilly then. He was the dean of one of the medical colleges. *Prabhupāda: Ah. So he has written that Kṛṣṇa is the physician and Arjuna is the patient. And he has interpreted in that way. There are 645 like that, this, what is called, unauthoritative commentaries, without touching the spirit of Bhagavad*-gītā . *Dr. Patel: Best commentary is the Bhagavad*-gītā itself. It needs no commentary. It is so simple to understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. Prabhupāda: And commentary, interpretation, required when you cannot understand. Dr. Patel: It is very easy to understand. Prabhupāda: It is very easy, and still these rogues will exploit and mislead people. This is the fact. And perhaps this is the first time I am pointing out. Before that nobody did. Dr. Patel: And you wrote . . . I have read your commentary twice, and it has become very harsh on those people. *Prabhupāda: I must be. They are doing wrong thing. They are doing great harm to the . . . they are misleading the people. If I become little more powerful, I shall do it more harshly. I did not show, because I was non*-entity. But I knew it. Now people are taking me little seriously, I am talking. (break) In the beginning I thought, "Who will hear me? Better wait for the time." Therefore I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that, "Now you have got your svarāja . Please come, let us preach Bhagavad-gītā ." You have seen. If he would have given the chance at that time, then long ago this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement would have been started. *Dr. Patel: He had only anāsakti- yoga . Anāsakti - yoga , Second Chapter, Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: He has expanded his āsakti from his family to the whole nation. That is not anāsakti . Expanded āsakti is not anāsakti . I'm thinking only of my family, and if I think of the whole nation, that does not mean anāsakti . That means āsakti expanded. I am a pickpocket. If I become a great plunderer, that does not mean I am not a thief. You cannot say pickpocket is thief and a great plunderer is a hero. The quality is there. Hari-śauri: There's that story about Alexander and the thief. Prabhupāda: Ah, Alexander and the thief. The thief convinced him, "Alexander, what is the difference between you and me? (laughter) I'm a small thief, you are a big thief, that's all." (entering car) Dr. Patel: I will drive the car for today. Prabhupāda: All right. No, no, why you . . . (indistinct) . . . young man . . . (break) . . . the world . . . (break) (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . so glorious. Glorious. He's glorious. That's all right. But kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī will imitate his behavior, but he is not fixed up. Therefore it is not good for him. He is forbidden. This is . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's forbidden to hear from a nondevotee. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They will commit so many mistakes, and they'll take it for granted. Just like this " nitāi*-gaura-rādhe-śyāma ." That is avoided for kaniṣṭha-adhikārī . There are so many mistakes, rasābhāsa . So two things are there always, two sides: one for the mahā-bhāgavata , one for the ordinary kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī . So in the temple it is to be supposed generally for the madhyama-adhikārī and kaniṣṭha-adhikārī especially. So in the temple we should not . . . Hari-śauri: We should just listen to whatever the ācāryas have . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: I remember once before, a few years ago, you sent a letter out saying that no one should try to compose songs or . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not encourage. What they will compose? They have no realization. But they're speaking something about Kṛṣṇa. That's his beginning. Just like a child, he speaks half*-broken. That is not language. It has no meaning. But still the child, "Ah, ah, you are so nice, you are so nice, you are so nice." Because he's trying to speak something: "Papa, mama." And mama is . . . not that his words are complete. Hari-śauri: When we go out and preach, and we just repeat or try to repeat whatever we've heard from the spiritual master, but we may not have fully realized what we're speaking about, does that somehow or another reduce the potency of the Gītā or the Bhāgavatam or . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, realization takes time. Therefore there is no question of realization. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says you simply repeat as Kṛṣṇa says. That will save you. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just repeating. *Prabhupāda: The so*-called political leaders, they have no realization, but they manufacture their ideas. That is dangerous. Mislead themselves and others. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam ( BG 13.8). This is the process of knowledge. These so-called scholars and politicians, they have no ācārya . Instead of being amānitvam , they're mani . . . "I have become a leader, so whatever I shall say, it will be accepted." This is going on. Very bad. It is clearly said, as soon as you give up the ācārya system it is rotten. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa (BG 4.2). So things which is rotten, what you'll get benefit? That is going on. *Therefore in spite of so many Gītā commentators, big, big leaders, scholars, not a single person is converted into a devotee. Not a single person amongst their followers. It's useless talking. Therefore it is forbidden. Avaiṣṇava*-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtam . . . (Padma Purāṇa). Because they are not Vaiṣṇava, politicians and . . . reject them immediately. Immediately. That is the injunction. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are so respectful. People have got . . . now you have got your svarāja . Please take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and let us preach." *Dr. Patel: Sir, Raj Gopalacharya in his commentary, he has mentioned that Bhagavad*-gītā should be learned through the ācāryas . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: As Gopalacharya has commented. He was a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Raj Gopalacharya was sensible man amongst the whole lot. Dr. Patel: He was a Vaiṣṇava cult. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. Chakravarty. So . . . (indistinct) . . . I say that amongst the whole lot he was a sane man, Raj Gopalacharya. Because by culture he's a Vaiṣṇava. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . agreement with Jawaharlal Nehru. Dr. Patel: He never was in agreement. Prabhupāda: Not a single item. He therefore resigned. He wanted to form his own party. Hari-śauri: Who's that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Raj Gopalacharya. Dr. Patel: If they had followed Raj Gopalacharya this country would have been far better in knowledge. Raj Gopalacharya. That is because he was paraṁ bhakta , to tell the truth, always. *Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate (SB 5.18.12). Therefore he was qualified. Anyway, if you are interested in Bhagavad*-gītā , how you can misinterpret? How you can put your own words to mislead people? How much misleading this is. *Hari-śauri: Actually, they're not interested in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: I knew all these things, but what I am? I have no position. *Dr. Patel: But what you have commented is correct. And the Bhagavad*-gītā , real thing is man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Instead they directed their attention to karma and this and that. It was . . . and similar thing . . . Prabhupāda: But because they did not learn subject matter from ācārya . Dr. Patel: Ācārya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Ācārya . One has to learn from the ācārya . Dr. Patel: Ācārya is one who ācāra , himself practices. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No. One who knows and practices. Ācinoti śāstra . One who knows the real purpose. And there is no difficulty of understanding the real purpose. It is clearly said, everything. The process of knowledge is given, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 13.8). Where is that? In the beginning, "Oh, I am such a big leader, politician. Whatever I say is nice." Dambha. Dambha . Because he's thinking puffed*-up, falsely. Some rascal fools give them clap. (Prabhupāda claps) They think, "Oh, I have become very great." Dr. Patel: Nowadays, sir, they collect people to clap them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Patel: Nowadays the politicians collect them. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. They make such a speech and practice. One political leader, he is young man, he was saying in Hyderabad . . . he was ambassador in . . . that Rao? Hari-śauri: Yes, Motilal Rao. Prabhupāda: So he did not know. He said that, "When I was going to be ambassador, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he told me that, "You first of all write a speech and practice it, and deliver it very nicely. Then they will applaud." This is Dr. Radhakrishnan. They want simply applause. That's all. Because they know, "If the public applauds, then I keep my position. I am . . . whatever nonsense I speak or whatever nonsense I . . . it doesn't matter." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Public support. Prabhupāda: Bās. That is their only business. Hari-śauri: Some of them, they don't even write their own speeches. They have a professional script writer. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professional writer and some speaker. Dr. Patel: All of them . . . (indistinct) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the President of the United States has a speech writer. *Prabhupāda: Learned scholar, English licensed. We know that Madanmohan Malhotra. And in those days Surendranath Bannerji was a great orator. You have heard his name? Surendranath Bannerji. He is the practically father of Indian nationalism. So he was I.C.S., and in those days English scholar. His father was very big doctor, Dr. Dugdhachandra Bannerji. So his speech, this Madanmohan Malhotra used to rote it, cram, and before a mirror he would speak like this, "Oh . . ." In this way he became a politician. He was smārta*-brāhmaṇa and he became a politician, simply by imitating Surendranath Bannerji's speech. Dr. Patel: Even those who are with Baroda Maharaja and all Maharaja's speeches were written by . . . (indistinct) . . . so one can . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is thinking "These are your ideas, Maharaja." "Well, everyone knows that I am writing it. It doesn't matter. I won't correct it." All the speeches given by Maharaja of Baroda was written by . . . (indistinct) . . . all, all, practically all. Here's a reference there. And he was a great scholar after all. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was English*-born. His father was medical man, Dr. Madanmohan Bannerji. Dr. Patel: They say he did not know even Bengali properly. *Prabhupāda: Yes. How he can? He was born in England, educated in England. He was English*-born. Dr. Patel: Then he became a master in Sanskrit. That is a great, I mean, intelligent . . . Prabhupāda: That may be. He was a scholar. They were big scholars. He was professor in Baroda University. Dr. Patel: Professor of French and Philosophy. Prabhupāda: There is one hall, Aurobindo Hall, in Baroda. Dr. Patel: All followers of Aurobindo are Bengalis and Gujaratis. Prabhupāda: Hmm. No, there are others, in foreign countries. He was scholar. *Dr. Patel: In the āśramas Bengalis and Gujaratis will go fifty*-fifty. There are some South Indians also there . . . (indistinct) . . . "You are from India?" He had a very big following of Gujaratis. Prabhupāda: Because he was first in Gujarat. Dr. Patel: Baroda Maharaja, when he, when he did not appear in horse riding test . . . (indistinct) . . . but he did not want to start the competition . . . (indistinct) . . . so he came. So Baroda . . . (indistinct) . . . Maharaja knew he has came. Baroda Maharaja was in England then. He called him, saying . . . (indistinct) . . . the same thing as the Britishers did at Baroda. That is, Baroda Maharaja was appreciated. Prabhupāda: No, he was a person to be appreciated. There is no doubt. He had so many qualifications. But he was also doing yoga practice. When he was put into . . . no, after getting released from jail, twelve years. He was to be hanged. Dr. Patel: C. R. Das. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: It was said that the man who was judge was his classmate in Cambridge, Oxford, or something like that. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Dr. Patel: C. R. Das made a very good speech. I have read all about what he . . . (indistinct) . . . for practicing yoga in jail. When he has himself written when he came to the minister's court. He felt that everywhere was Kṛṣṇa. Everyone was . . . he was seeing Kṛṣṇa everywhere. That was his feeling. So he would not be punished by anybody. But God is everywhere, even . . . (indistinct) . . . his brother was transported to the . . . he was to be hanged, and then he was transported to . . . (indistinct) . . . the Bengalis . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) This is the fact, that yato mata tato patha , whatever path you accept, that is authorized. He said that. Do you think it is bona fide? Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam , and he approves anything. Dr. Patel: He was a partial political leader also. Prabhupāda: That's all. He's a political leader. Dr. Patel: But then he had a great burning desire to see that India be free of British purpose. He was a real nationalist . . . *Prabhupāda: That even cats and dogs, they also want that, "My cats be well fed and be strong." That is not a very good position. And Bhagavad*-gītā says, aratiḥ putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu (BG 13.10). This is philosophy. And if one is attached to his homely happiness, he's not even a man of knowledge. Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: When Vivekananda came back from foreign tours, he brought three women, and one woman was intimately connected with him. Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You, you have seen yourself. Why there was no men in America? He came back . . . Dr. Patel: I think he was a brahmacārī throughout. Prabhupāda: You do not know. There is an old man . . . some old woman, he said about he's connected. Dr. Patel: Subash Candra Bose . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Marriage is good. But to keep illicit sex, that's the most sinful activity. Marriage is allowed. Dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi (BG 7.11). That is not against. Dr. Patel: Great number of luminaries have been produced by Bengal. Last year we read in Times of India more luminaries were produced in Bengal than any other Indian province. Prabhupāda: No, Bengal . . . they maintained the culture. But therefore I say that Vivekananda broke that Bengali culture. *Dr. Patel: Bengali culture is fish*-eating. Even Brāhmiṇs eating. Prabhupāda: No. They are eating fish only. Because Bengal is full of rivers. But not for all. Mass of people, that's a fact. But he introduced, "You can eat anything. It has nothing to do with religion." In Bengal in our childhood we have seen if anyone was habituated to take meat . . . the common man would not. Rich man. The rich men they have their sahis. Sahis you know, who takes care of the horse. So he would cook in the horse shed. Dr. Patel: And eat there. Prabhupāda: No. Then he'll bring the . . . (indistinct) . . . and eat it. It was never brought within the precincts of the house. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) . . . Gujarat and Maharashtra . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no . . . these people who were eating meat, they knew that "I am doing wrong." But Vivekananda approved, "No, it is not wrong." It is wrong. "Whatever you like, you can do." Then they began to eat meat. Fish they were already eating. Meat and chicken and eggs and everything. Dr. Patel: All the sons of Vallabhācārya's followers are eating. Prabhupāda: No, everyone is eating. I know that. Therefore our first regulation is you must give it up. Then we talk of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Patel: My son . . . (indistinct) . . . he does not even eat tomatoes, saying that if you . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Tomato was not taken. Dr. Patel: No, no. That is what he says: "I won't eat." He does not eat because his mother was 100% vegetarian, and we would not allow even . . . Prabhupāda: In our childhood no one would eat the tomato. It is not . . . it is red color, but everything vilāti . It is called vilāti baigun . So no one would touch. Hari-śauri: Tomato? Prabhupāda: There was prejudice, because it was brought from . . . even potato. Strict Hindu would not take potato. Potato was imported from England. It was not produced . . . just like tulasī. Tulasī plant we have imported, exported. Similarly, so many things . . . Dr. Patel: They have not allowed tulasī to be grown in America. Prabhupāda: Oh, no? Who said? Dr. Patel: Mr. Shaheb . . . (indistinct) . . . tulasī plant for his daughter. Prabhupāda: No, we have got so many tulasī plants. Hari-śauri: Every one of our centers has so many tulasīs . *Prabhupāda: Every temple we have got big, big tulasī . Especially Hawaii we have got six*-feet-high tulasī . Dr. Patel: I have . . . (indistinct) . . . they won't allow plant. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is agriculture. You cannot take any plant. Not only tulasī. Any plant from India. Dr. Patel: You may take away the diseases. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Not only tulasī plant, any plant you cannot take. You cannot take any vegetables. There is agricultural restriction. Dr. Patel: But I think tulasī can be grown in all the countries. Even in the cold. Prabhupāda: In the cold countries with little care. Dr. Patel: England? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got tulasī . Dr. Patel: You may have to keep it in hothouse during winter. Prabhupāda: Yes. We make that arrangement. And what Vivekananda said, that "It is better to water eggplant tree. Why tulasī plant? What you will get?" Eggplant tree means you'll get some eggplant, baigun . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . this is his culture. "Make your body strong and stout by eating meat, and there is nothing to do with the . . ." Dr. Patel: The result will be the same as Gandhi's . . . (indistinct) . . . this slaughterhouse, so abominable and so horrible. When I first came to Bombay from my village and I had to pass through that railway, that nasty butcher house. It was so horrible smelling, and those vultures sitting on the . . . I became spite of myself, when I came in Bombay. I had to join the grammatical college here. Prabhupāda: You were . . . two thousand years ago, Christ, he was born in Jewish family, he was horrified by seeing animal sacrifices in the synagogue. Therefore his first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." He was so horrified. Why he has given this commandment? He was so much horrified: "What is this?" Therefore he gave up the Jewish religion. He started his own. This is the history. And he, first commandment, "Thou shall not kill." Dr. Patel: And the Jews were killing the pigeons in the temple. Prabhupāda: They are very expert in killing. Dr. Patel: I don't know how the religiosity could even . . . Prabhupāda: So where is religion? Dr. Patel: They have misinterpreted religion. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavatam has criticized all so*-called religion. Dr. Patel: One patient of mine, Sardar Patel, he's a old . . . (indistinct) . . . from Hindus and Muslim. And . . . (indistinct) . . . what they call it, killing of their . . . Prabhupāda: Muslims are also restricted . . . (break) . . . for some purpose. Therefore they are called karmīs . Actually, it is for satisfying Viṣṇu. Without Viṣṇu's satisfaction nothing can be done. So those who are desiring some material grants, they used to perform this ritualistic ceremonies. It is not for the devotee. Dr. Patel: For devotee, Kṛṣṇa has said: "I am yajña , and I am also hutam , and I am also performer of yajña ." Prabhupāda: Yes. Because He gives the intelligence. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). Unless He gives smṛti , he cannot chant the mantra . "Therefore actually I am performer." Dr. Patel: Ahaṁ kratur ahaṁ yajñaḥ . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore He says: "I am performer. If I give him instruction, he does something, so he is not doing, I am doing. I say: 'Do like this,' and he does like that, then he's not performer; *I am performer." So whatever mantra they are chanting, if Kṛṣṇa does not give him intelligence, he cannot do that. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). "Everyone, whatever we are doing, it is being supplied, the intelligence, the everything, but according to My desires." So I cannot do anything independently. Just like we are constructing, practically, with the sanction of the Municipality, the sanction of the government. Independently I cannot do. Similarly, we cannot anything without sanction of God. But that sanction is, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). I insist, "God, give me this facility, give me this facility." "All right. You do it at your risk." But God says that, "You don't do this." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). "What I say, you do. Then you'll be happy. What I dictate, you do. But you are dictating Me. Because you are My son, what can I do? All right. Do it." Dr. Patel: (laughs) "I grant you whatever you . . ." *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the position. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasām (BG 7.23). "Because you are rascal, less intelligent, you are doing this, but this will not endure. You'll be a failure. Better what I say, you do. Then you'll be happy." This is the whole instruction. "You cannot do without My sanction. But you are insisting. What can I do? All right. Do it." Dr. Patel: "I grant you. And take the fruit and realize." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He's there. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni (BG 18.61). If you have done, then you must suffer or enjoy. That's all. That is your business. You get . . . "Now you have created a karma . You have to enjoy it by accepting a certain type of body. Now you take it. I ask māyā , 'Give him this body. He wants to eat stool.' 'All right. Give him the body of a hog.' " Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. The yantra , the body, is supplied by māyā under the order. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate (BG 9.10). Everything is there. But these things they do not preach. They preach unnecessarily nonviolence. From Bhagavad-gītā , which is being taught in the battlefield, and Gandhi wants to draw some meaning, nonviolence. Immediately it is . . . what is the value? Not only Gandhi, everyone. If he can give a new interpretation . . . I think in Bombay, was there any Dr. Reilly? He wrote some Bhagavad-gītā commentary as . . . Dr. Patel: I think it's not that Reilly. Not that Reilly, Dr. Reilly, but there is another Reilly in Baroda who taught . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Dr. Patel: . . . sanskrit to . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. He has interpreted Bhagavad*-gītā , patient and physician. Dr. Patel: Patient and physician. That may be this Reilly then. He was the dean of one of the medical colleges. *Prabhupāda: Ah. So he has written that Kṛṣṇa is the physician and Arjuna is the patient. And he has interpreted in that way. There are 645 like that, this, what is called, unauthoritative commentaries, without touching the spirit of Bhagavad*-gītā . *Dr. Patel: Best commentary is the Bhagavad*-gītā itself. It needs no commentary. It is so simple to understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. Prabhupāda: And commentary, interpretation, required when you cannot understand. Dr. Patel: It is very easy to understand. Prabhupāda: It is very easy, and still these rogues will exploit and mislead people. This is the fact. And perhaps this is the first time I am pointing out. Before that nobody did. Dr. Patel: And you wrote . . . I have read your commentary twice, and it has become very harsh on those people. *Prabhupāda: I must be. They are doing wrong thing. They are doing great harm to the . . . they are misleading the people. If I become little more powerful, I shall do it more harshly. I did not show, because I was non*-entity. But I knew it. Now people are taking me little seriously, I am talking. (break) In the beginning I thought, "Who will hear me? Better wait for the time." Therefore I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that, "Now you have got your svarāja . Please come, let us preach Bhagavad-gītā ." You have seen. If he would have given the chance at that time, then long ago this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement would have been started. *Dr. Patel: He had only anāsakti- yoga . Anāsakti - yoga , Second Chapter, Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: He has expanded his āsakti from his family to the whole nation. That is not anāsakti . Expanded āsakti is not anāsakti . I'm thinking only of my family, and if I think of the whole nation, that does not mean anāsakti . That means āsakti expanded. I am a pickpocket. If I become a great plunderer, that does not mean I am not a thief. You cannot say pickpocket is thief and a great plunderer is a hero. The quality is there. Hari-śauri: There's that story about Alexander and the thief. Prabhupāda: Ah, Alexander and the thief. The thief convinced him, "Alexander, what is the difference between you and me? (laughter) I'm a small thief, you are a big thief, that's all." (entering car) Dr. Patel: I will drive the car for today. Prabhupāda: All right. No, no, why you . . . (indistinct) . . . young man . . . (break) . . . the world . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- January 3, 1976, Nellore These things are not available in the Western countries. They do not know all these. I don't think that there has ever been a personality who has ever given such a great gift to the Western world as yourself, Prabhupāda. Yes, actually that is the fact. But let them appreciate, that's all. Gradually I think they all will. Some are now . . . No, they are intelligent. First . . . The thing is, it seems to me that we are flooding so many books that they must become Kṛṣṇa conscious. (laughing) Yes, they have no alternative than to read these books. Practically now it is commonplace that every day when our men go out, supposing each man meets in a day a thousand people or five hundred people, always, without a doubt, at least one or two of the people he's met, they already have another book, and they are taking a second or third book. Yes. *Many of them have two or three volumes of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta or Bhāgavatam . And although they may not read it, their children are reading it. Somebody is reading. Oh, yes. I made a study. I asked the men in our party, when they were all gathered, to raise their hand if they had received a book before joining our party, and every single one of them had gotten a book before joining the movement—without exception. They were attracted through reading a book or a magazine. I talked with that police officer. He has published. In Chicago. "Crime: What to do?" "Why and what to do?" "Why and what to do?" Every paper. There are so many papers. Education so much advanced, and everyone is a criminal. Hmm. Have saṅkīrtana , then lecture. You chant? Hare Kṛṣṇa only. (break) That is foolishness. Why our men does not become ready before four o'clock and have maṅgala ārati and kīrtana ? If our habits are not changed, then what is the use of spending so much money? (pause) In no way can anyone say that they're independent. There is no possibility. At every moment one is dependent. And if anyone says they aren't, they are simply foolish rascals. We have to challenge everyone in the world on this point, "You cannot be independent." He was pointing out, saying that even in politics, the politicians like Indira think that they are independent, and Prabhupāda was saying that Mujibur Rahman, he fought so hard for his country's independence, Bangladesh. But in one hour, when the soldiers came, they killed him and every single family member, not sparing anyone. But he thought he was independent. He thought his country had become independent. But in one hour it was all wiped away. So where is your independence? What is the answer? At any moment you have to die. Even Mujibur Rahman or Mussolini or big, big, so . . . Napoleon. Franco. There was that Franco. Yes, everyone. He was given horse urine to drink, Napoleon. Such a great hero, but he had to drink horse urine. This Englishman after Battle of . . . what is that? Waterloo. When he was arrested, when he was asking water, he was given horse urine. Because everyone was very, very angry. Napoleon became just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. They were threatening their children: "Oh, he, Bona, is coming. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep." He became so much . . . he was known as Bona. You do not know all these things? No. Yes. Whole Europe became threatened, Napoleon. And there must be some reaction. And when he was under custody he was treated like an . . . so where is independence? He had to drink horse urine as reaction of his atrocities. Hitler committed suicide and finished himself. Mussolini was forced to be killed. Gandhi was killed. And they are fighting for independence. You know this Sydney? Sydney? You know why the city is known as Sydney? No. Sir Philip Sydney, a great commander, during the fighting time, when he was shot he asked for water, and the water was not supplied and he died. Now, he was very generous man. He was the commander. Water was brought, and at the same time another soldier was being carried. He was also going to die. He was looking for the water. So immediately he said: "This water give him. Give him," and he died. He was very generous. He knew that, "I am going to die. If he can be saved, give him this water." So that Sydney, Sir Philip Sydney, his name. Melbourne, it is also named after a great soldier. So where is your independence? If you are thinking independently and doing things independently, then is it not foolishness? Hmm? (chuckles) Why don't you answer? You don't want to be foolish? (laughter) Suppose within the prison walls, if you want to do things independently, is it possible? No, you're always dependent. You'll be put into further sufferings as soon as you violate the rules and regulation of the jail. You'll be put to a further term of suffering. Just like they are independently trying to avoid pregnancy, and the same man who has killed his own child, or same mother, he is being killed within the womb. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni ( BG 3.27). Nature will not tolerate this. In India still these things are not happening because they are not so advanced to use all these contraceptive method. But in Europe, America, it has become a common affair to kill the child within the womb. It is starting here also. *Yes, gradually. As soon as you kill, then you must be killed. This law is there: life for life. So where is your independence? Independence means you are inviting more sufferings, that's all. You go on, declare your independence. We are the only sane man. We have accepted that, "We have not independence." Here Kṛṣṇa is asking. "Let me surrender unto . . ." That's all. So we have to convince the people, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. You are foolishly rascal. You are trying to be independent. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. You do that." That will make him happy. In many varieties of ways we have to convince them and prove that "You are foolishly thinking that there is independence, so*-called scientific advancement, and only promising, 'Yes, in future we shall be like this, be like this.' " What is future? Just take account of your present position. Where is the history that you have . . .? If in the past something like that happened, then you can expect future. But in the past, the whole world history, there was no independence. (break) . . . clearly says, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27): "These rascals, out of false ego, and vidmūḍha , foolishly declaring that, 'I am the doer of everything. I can do everything independently.' " Kartāham iti manyate. Manyate means "falsely think." Actually, he is nothing but a small particle. This egotism is the root cause of suffering. Discuss all these things amongst yourselves and preach, and inform these rascals, so-called civilized scientists and philosopher. That is preaching. We have to present the truth in such a way that they will be convinced, "Yes." Within fifteen minutes the plane in Arabia, fifty-three men fell. Within fifteen . . . it takes fifteen minutes to die. That's all. Where is your independence? You have invented so many nice machine, but when there is order from superior, "You nonsense, your machine . . . you die immediately," what you can do? So why don't you accept there is superior? Hmm? Why do they not accept? What is the reason? You cannot say? Vimūḍhātmā . Yes. That accept. If he accepts that he's vimūḍha , then it is an advance. Just like a dog is barking, " Yow, yow, yow, yow! " You just run towards him with a stick, he'll immediately go away and stop. Because he is dog, he is thinking, "I am independent. I can bark like this." And as soon as . . . simply one stick—finish his independence. You'll find psychologically, however a big dog he may be, if you just run towards him with a stick, he'll go. (laughs) He knows that, "When this man will strike me with the stick, I cannot do anything." He knows it very well. Sometimes falsely if you touch the ground, he will go away. Everyone is thinking independently. He is forming a party, "revolution," "ism," and so many things. All of them are foolish rascals. They do not see the history. Stronger men than ourselves—Napoleon, Hitler, this man, that man, Gandhi—everyone is finished. So where is . . . what is the value of my planning again? (break) There are many gods? Hmm? Vivekananda. He is follower of Vivekananda. (break) . . . Vivekananda's house was made, say, eighty years before. So what is the use of this house? It is standing and it is covered with matches . . . what is called? Straw? What is called? Lines? No, no. Dorma . We say dorma . The bamboo cut into slice and open . . . Citar. Citar . Citar ? Like the roof in the other place in Madras. Yes. It is English? Citar it is called? No, Hindi. English, what is the English? They do not use it. Hariśauri: A straw roof, they call that thatching. Thatch. Thatching, yes. That is right. So the windows are thatched. So where is the protection? Vivekananda is standing as preacher. So where is the preachers? People should have gone there in hundreds; *there should have been some program. So where is the program? Simply "Vivekananda house." Lit up the house. (break) . . . rows of statues on the beach, many statues—for passing stool by the crows. I have seen in Calcutta one statue of Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee. So in the morning, on the day of the birth anniversary, in the morning the municipal sweepers with their brush, they will rub it to cleanse the solidly stuck*-up crow's stool with water. It will be done for three, four hours. Then in the evening, big, big men will come, gather, and offer him garland one after another, just like they were offering me. In this way the meeting will be held. In the morning it is brushed with the sweeper's street brush, and in the evening it is offered garland. I have seen it. Here also I see that she has kept Kṛṣṇa's mūrti outside. It is aparādha . *They are not kṛṣṇa*-bhaktas , these people, at all. Hariśauri: Even that tulasī tree around the corner, they have clipped to shape it, cut all the branches. They have no guidance. Last night when we were reading, they all left, especially on that point of following the regulative principles—no meat, crabs, fish, eggs. They all got up and walked out. You said that the same cooking place will have to do, where they are cooking meat? They're not cooking it now. Huh? They're not doing that now. (break) . . . is not planning. When he comes here he is determined that he will not eat in anyone's home. That is very good. Not only that, but he's not going to sleep in anyone's home either. They want to camp out by the riversides. Very good idea. He says that he finds it very . . . from reading your books it is very clear that Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very careful and strict to only eat prasādam cooked by proper persons. No, purchased from Jagannātha temple. Yeah, like that. People would come to offer Him prasādam , so what is the cost of the prasādam , that was taken, and He purchased. Formerly, the system was, there was no hotel, but there were temples. You go, and you can purchase very cheap price. I went with my father in my childhood in a place. My father would never take food at anyone's house or in the hotel. He will find out some temple and pay them and take prasādam . Still there are many temples. So I was about ten years old at that time, say, seventy years ago. So he paid two annas to the pūjārī and he gave us so much, it can be eaten by five, six men. Khicuṛi , vegetables, varieties. So much. Two annas . There's a nice temple in Nabadwip that does that, the Govinda temple in Nabadwip. When I was going to purchase the land in Māyāpur, the Mr. Das, the lawyer and I, we would take our meals at this temple. Every day he would purchase. He would give a little. Yes, still there are. They had arrangement like this. At least a hundred people were taking, respectable people. Ācchā . Oh, it's a very pop . . . it's a very big temple, that temple. Of course, I don't know how bona fide the persons who speak at night are, but every night there are speakers, and many people coming. It's a very good temple. I was very impressed by it. Nice rooms for people to stay . . . Hmm? . . . upstairs, very active, always being cleansed by people. That is temple. *And first*-class prasādam . So we have got so many examples. Introduce this. (end) Conversation -- January 3, 1976, Nellore These things are not available in the Western countries. They do not know all these. I don't think that there has ever been a personality who has ever given such a great gift to the Western world as yourself, Prabhupāda. Yes, actually that is the fact. But let them appreciate, that's all. Gradually I think they all will. Some are now . . . No, they are intelligent. First . . . The thing is, it seems to me that we are flooding so many books that they must become Kṛṣṇa conscious. (laughing) Yes, they have no alternative than to read these books. Practically now it is commonplace that every day when our men go out, supposing each man meets in a day a thousand people or five hundred people, always, without a doubt, at least one or two of the people he's met, they already have another book, and they are taking a second or third book. Yes. *Many of them have two or three volumes of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta or Bhāgavatam . And although they may not read it, their children are reading it. Somebody is reading. Oh, yes. I made a study. I asked the men in our party, when they were all gathered, to raise their hand if they had received a book before joining our party, and every single one of them had gotten a book before joining the movement—without exception. They were attracted through reading a book or a magazine. I talked with that police officer. He has published. In Chicago. "Crime: What to do?" "Why and what to do?" "Why and what to do?" Every paper. There are so many papers. Education so much advanced, and everyone is a criminal. Hmm. Have saṅkīrtana , then lecture. You chant? Hare Kṛṣṇa only. (break) That is foolishness. Why our men does not become ready before four o'clock and have maṅgala ārati and kīrtana ? If our habits are not changed, then what is the use of spending so much money? (pause) In no way can anyone say that they're independent. There is no possibility. At every moment one is dependent. And if anyone says they aren't, they are simply foolish rascals. We have to challenge everyone in the world on this point, "You cannot be independent." He was pointing out, saying that even in politics, the politicians like Indira think that they are independent, and Prabhupāda was saying that Mujibur Rahman, he fought so hard for his country's independence, Bangladesh. But in one hour, when the soldiers came, they killed him and every single family member, not sparing anyone. But he thought he was independent. He thought his country had become independent. But in one hour it was all wiped away. So where is your independence? What is the answer? At any moment you have to die. Even Mujibur Rahman or Mussolini or big, big, so . . . Napoleon. Franco. There was that Franco. Yes, everyone. He was given horse urine to drink, Napoleon. Such a great hero, but he had to drink horse urine. This Englishman after Battle of . . . what is that? Waterloo. When he was arrested, when he was asking water, he was given horse urine. Because everyone was very, very angry. Napoleon became just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. They were threatening their children: "Oh, he, Bona, is coming. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep." He became so much . . . he was known as Bona. You do not know all these things? No. Yes. Whole Europe became threatened, Napoleon. And there must be some reaction. And when he was under custody he was treated like an . . . so where is independence? He had to drink horse urine as reaction of his atrocities. Hitler committed suicide and finished himself. Mussolini was forced to be killed. Gandhi was killed. And they are fighting for independence. You know this Sydney? Sydney? You know why the city is known as Sydney? No. Sir Philip Sydney, a great commander, during the fighting time, when he was shot he asked for water, and the water was not supplied and he died. Now, he was very generous man. He was the commander. Water was brought, and at the same time another soldier was being carried. He was also going to die. He was looking for the water. So immediately he said: "This water give him. Give him," and he died. He was very generous. He knew that, "I am going to die. If he can be saved, give him this water." So that Sydney, Sir Philip Sydney, his name. Melbourne, it is also named after a great soldier. So where is your independence? If you are thinking independently and doing things independently, then is it not foolishness? Hmm? (chuckles) Why don't you answer? You don't want to be foolish? (laughter) Suppose within the prison walls, if you want to do things independently, is it possible? No, you're always dependent. You'll be put into further sufferings as soon as you violate the rules and regulation of the jail. You'll be put to a further term of suffering. Just like they are independently trying to avoid pregnancy, and the same man who has killed his own child, or same mother, he is being killed within the womb. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni ( BG 3.27). Nature will not tolerate this. In India still these things are not happening because they are not so advanced to use all these contraceptive method. But in Europe, America, it has become a common affair to kill the child within the womb. It is starting here also. *Yes, gradually. As soon as you kill, then you must be killed. This law is there: life for life. So where is your independence? Independence means you are inviting more sufferings, that's all. You go on, declare your independence. We are the only sane man. We have accepted that, "We have not independence." Here Kṛṣṇa is asking. "Let me surrender unto . . ." That's all. So we have to convince the people, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. You are foolishly rascal. You are trying to be independent. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. You do that." That will make him happy. In many varieties of ways we have to convince them and prove that "You are foolishly thinking that there is independence, so*-called scientific advancement, and only promising, 'Yes, in future we shall be like this, be like this.' " What is future? Just take account of your present position. Where is the history that you have . . .? If in the past something like that happened, then you can expect future. But in the past, the whole world history, there was no independence. (break) . . . clearly says, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27): "These rascals, out of false ego, and vidmūḍha , foolishly declaring that, 'I am the doer of everything. I can do everything independently.' " Kartāham iti manyate. Manyate means "falsely think." Actually, he is nothing but a small particle. This egotism is the root cause of suffering. Discuss all these things amongst yourselves and preach, and inform these rascals, so-called civilized scientists and philosopher. That is preaching. We have to present the truth in such a way that they will be convinced, "Yes." Within fifteen minutes the plane in Arabia, fifty-three men fell. Within fifteen . . . it takes fifteen minutes to die. That's all. Where is your independence? You have invented so many nice machine, but when there is order from superior, "You nonsense, your machine . . . you die immediately," what you can do? So why don't you accept there is superior? Hmm? Why do they not accept? What is the reason? You cannot say? Vimūḍhātmā . Yes. That accept. If he accepts that he's vimūḍha , then it is an advance. Just like a dog is barking, " Yow, yow, yow, yow! " You just run towards him with a stick, he'll immediately go away and stop. Because he is dog, he is thinking, "I am independent. I can bark like this." And as soon as . . . simply one stick—finish his independence. You'll find psychologically, however a big dog he may be, if you just run towards him with a stick, he'll go. (laughs) He knows that, "When this man will strike me with the stick, I cannot do anything." He knows it very well. Sometimes falsely if you touch the ground, he will go away. Everyone is thinking independently. He is forming a party, "revolution," "ism," and so many things. All of them are foolish rascals. They do not see the history. Stronger men than ourselves—Napoleon, Hitler, this man, that man, Gandhi—everyone is finished. So where is . . . what is the value of my planning again? (break) There are many gods? Hmm? Vivekananda. He is follower of Vivekananda. (break) . . . Vivekananda's house was made, say, eighty years before. So what is the use of this house? It is standing and it is covered with matches . . . what is called? Straw? What is called? Lines? No, no. Dorma . We say dorma . The bamboo cut into slice and open . . . Citar. Citar . Citar ? Like the roof in the other place in Madras. Yes. It is English? Citar it is called? No, Hindi. English, what is the English? They do not use it. Hariśauri: A straw roof, they call that thatching. Thatch. Thatching, yes. That is right. So the windows are thatched. So where is the protection? Vivekananda is standing as preacher. So where is the preachers? People should have gone there in hundreds; *there should have been some program. So where is the program? Simply "Vivekananda house." Lit up the house. (break) . . . rows of statues on the beach, many statues—for passing stool by the crows. I have seen in Calcutta one statue of Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee. So in the morning, on the day of the birth anniversary, in the morning the municipal sweepers with their brush, they will rub it to cleanse the solidly stuck*-up crow's stool with water. It will be done for three, four hours. Then in the evening, big, big men will come, gather, and offer him garland one after another, just like they were offering me. In this way the meeting will be held. In the morning it is brushed with the sweeper's street brush, and in the evening it is offered garland. I have seen it. Here also I see that she has kept Kṛṣṇa's mūrti outside. It is aparādha . *They are not kṛṣṇa*-bhaktas , these people, at all. Hariśauri: Even that tulasī tree around the corner, they have clipped to shape it, cut all the branches. They have no guidance. Last night when we were reading, they all left, especially on that point of following the regulative principles—no meat, crabs, fish, eggs. They all got up and walked out. You said that the same cooking place will have to do, where they are cooking meat? They're not cooking it now. Huh? They're not doing that now. (break) . . . is not planning. When he comes here he is determined that he will not eat in anyone's home. That is very good. Not only that, but he's not going to sleep in anyone's home either. They want to camp out by the riversides. Very good idea. He says that he finds it very . . . from reading your books it is very clear that Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very careful and strict to only eat prasādam cooked by proper persons. No, purchased from Jagannātha temple. Yeah, like that. People would come to offer Him prasādam , so what is the cost of the prasādam , that was taken, and He purchased. Formerly, the system was, there was no hotel, but there were temples. You go, and you can purchase very cheap price. I went with my father in my childhood in a place. My father would never take food at anyone's house or in the hotel. He will find out some temple and pay them and take prasādam . Still there are many temples. So I was about ten years old at that time, say, seventy years ago. So he paid two annas to the pūjārī and he gave us so much, it can be eaten by five, six men. Khicuṛi , vegetables, varieties. So much. Two annas . There's a nice temple in Nabadwip that does that, the Govinda temple in Nabadwip. When I was going to purchase the land in Māyāpur, the Mr. Das, the lawyer and I, we would take our meals at this temple. Every day he would purchase. He would give a little. Yes, still there are. They had arrangement like this. At least a hundred people were taking, respectable people. Ācchā . Oh, it's a very pop . . . it's a very big temple, that temple. Of course, I don't know how bona fide the persons who speak at night are, but every night there are speakers, and many people coming. It's a very good temple. I was very impressed by it. Nice rooms for people to stay . . . Hmm? . . . upstairs, very active, always being cleansed by people. That is temple. *And first*-class prasādam . So we have got so many examples. Introduce this. (end) Conversation -- January 7, 1976, Nellore . . . no taste, no vitamin, and still they eat. They can everything. They have canned food, canned fruits, canned . . . Yes. No, I have seen. Eating and remnants, it is kept in . . . Oh, yes, put in the refrigerator. And then you cook it up again with fresh foods, mixing together. Is it all right if he keeps it in there and then he puts some on the plate when taking? He puts on the plate when taking? I do not know whether it is all right, but it is not all right that you eat and keep it. This is not all right. He takes it from there and puts it on the plate before you eat? He keeps the salt in a separate bowl. When you require it he will give you only as much as you require. Yes, that is nice. That's why the bowl is there. That's what I intended to do, but I have to keep it away from the table. *The principle should be that you should not leave remnants of food. As soon as it is used, it should not be used more. (break) Otherwise it is not possible to give up. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). I am eating something not very superior, but if I get the chance of eating something superior, then I give up this inferior. So there is no question of making it vacant or void. To fill up the place with better things. So when you think of Kṛṣṇa, then you forget māyā . Otherwise you are entrapped with māyā . Why Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto ? Mām eva ye prapadyante (BG 7.14). This is wanted. As soon as you become anyābhilāṣī , then it becomes difficult. Where is that knife? Give me one am root. Cut into pieces and get . . . I think these are from the local . . . growing here. *That we should be very careful, that we should think of Kṛṣṇa only, not of māyā , in everything. No more strength. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām (BG 9.14). Avismṛti*-kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ kṣinoty abhadrāṇi. We are in the abhadra, māyā . But avismṛti-kṛṣṇa-padaravindayoḥ kṣiṇoti . The thinking of māyā will gradually finish. Avismṛiti-kṛṣṇa-padaravindayoḥ kṣiṇoti . . . no, no, I said that you give these pieces, little, little. I'll do it myself. These pieces, this am root, yes. This. I'll give it out. So no vismṛti. Avismṛti. Vismṛti is ignorance. Avismṛti . All right. (end) Conversation -- January 7, 1976, Nellore . . . no taste, no vitamin, and still they eat. They can everything. They have canned food, canned fruits, canned . . . Yes. No, I have seen. Eating and remnants, it is kept in . . . Oh, yes, put in the refrigerator. And then you cook it up again with fresh foods, mixing together. Is it all right if he keeps it in there and then he puts some on the plate when taking? He puts on the plate when taking? I do not know whether it is all right, but it is not all right that you eat and keep it. This is not all right. He takes it from there and puts it on the plate before you eat? He keeps the salt in a separate bowl. When you require it he will give you only as much as you require. Yes, that is nice. That's why the bowl is there. That's what I intended to do, but I have to keep it away from the table. *The principle should be that you should not leave remnants of food. As soon as it is used, it should not be used more. (break) Otherwise it is not possible to give up. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). I am eating something not very superior, but if I get the chance of eating something superior, then I give up this inferior. So there is no question of making it vacant or void. To fill up the place with better things. So when you think of Kṛṣṇa, then you forget māyā . Otherwise you are entrapped with māyā . Why Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto ? Mām eva ye prapadyante (BG 7.14). This is wanted. As soon as you become anyābhilāṣī , then it becomes difficult. Where is that knife? Give me one am root. Cut into pieces and get . . . I think these are from the local . . . growing here. *That we should be very careful, that we should think of Kṛṣṇa only, not of māyā , in everything. No more strength. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām (BG 9.14). Avismṛti*-kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ kṣinoty abhadrāṇi. We are in the abhadra, māyā . But avismṛti-kṛṣṇa-padaravindayoḥ kṣiṇoti . The thinking of māyā will gradually finish. Avismṛiti-kṛṣṇa-padaravindayoḥ kṣiṇoti . . . no, no, I said that you give these pieces, little, little. I'll do it myself. These pieces, this am root, yes. This. I'll give it out. So no vismṛti. Avismṛti. Vismṛti is ignorance. Avismṛti . All right. (end) Conversation -- January 8, 1976, Nellore *This is idea. Mano*-rathena , by mental speculation, āsato dhāvato , they will come to materialism. As soon as they will hover over mental concoction, they will remain in the material platform, because mind is subtle form of matter. Also, in their evidences by which they base their dialectic discussions, have they regarded the Vedic scriptures? They have avoided them very conveniently. *No, there is no question of dialectic discussion. Suppose I am discussing, you are discussing something, but if I am imperfect, you are imperfect, what is the value of such discussion? That is the point. The party discussing something, whether he is perfect? If he is not perfect, then go on discussing. We first of all say that any conditioned soul is defective, and that is admitted. They say: "We are not perfect." "I think," they say: "In my opinion," they say. Never they say, the so*-called scientists, "definite." And they cannot say it. That is like Dr. Frog's philosophy when they speculate. Yes. Simply speculation. So that kind of discussion, what is the value? It's always a hypothesis. If some children discuss some serious subject matter, what is the value? And they are all children in the cradle of nature, that's all. Prakṛteḥ kriya . . . therefore it is word, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni ( BG 3.27). Just like children: "Ha! Sit down here"—he has to sit down. Then where is his, I mean, freedom to discuss? Prakṛti says that "You sit down here. Don't go there." He has to accept. Then what is the value of discussion? Mainly, these Karl Marx, they were angry at the Christian church for exploiting the poor masses, and that's the reason . . . This is our . . . . . . so he has attacked. He has taken vengeance on this. *That they are doing. Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water. They have no philosophy, and they violate everything what is stated there in Bible. Now you say that, "Thou shall not kill", they say: "Thou shall not murder." They are molding. Now this homosex they are sanctioning, man*-to-man marriage. They are sanctioning abortion. Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest. Yes. Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual. Hmm? Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals. Just see. Is that religion? The simple fact that the Christians have to sprinkle water to convert means that they do not have any potency to by philosophy, to preach to them with strong philosophy. There is no . . . so, go on reading. I'll backspace two sentences. (break) ". . . have allowed us to wither away these different countries, and the religionists, they are keeping all the food. They are not distributing it." If we say that the Russia has no grains, they will say that they are big wheat producers in the southern part. They may counteract by saying: "We also produce a lot of wheat." They had to purchase wheat from America. Russia is importing its food grains now. So why they cannot produce sufficient, such a big country? And Eastern Europe, which is also communist, gets all its supplies from . . . No, what is their explanation? Russia is the biggest country. Land. The reason was that there was no rain. *Then? Then you have to depend on rain, and when we say parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ . . . hmm? And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). That means, rascal, you take one side, that ardha-kukuṭi-nyāya. Cut the chicken half, and separate the mouth—it is expensive—and keep the rear side, you get eggs. (laughter) So this is ardha-kukuṭi-nyāya . The rascal does not know that if you separate the mouth there will be no egg. They say that's depending upon nature. But they do not know who . . . *The word 'nature' should be condemned. That . . . no scientific*-minded person can say the word nature. *No, they do not know what is nature. Nature is an instrument, and there must be an operator. So that they do not know, the operator. Just like a child is thinking the motorcar is going automatically. He does not know there is a driver. The child sees that the airplane is flying. They think it is automatically going. And there is a pilot, he does not know. Similarly, these rascals, they are studying nature, but nature is an instrument only. It is being operated by Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). They have practical experience that without operator a machine cannot work. In the huge machine, how it is working unless there is operator? That they do not know. That's what they're never trying to find. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). Find out this verse. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍha . Therefore they are all mūḍhas . So we are not going to be misled by the mūḍhas . That is not possible. We take the instruction of the topmost intelligent person, Kṛṣṇa. I think our Svarūpa Dāmodara has said that. Where is that book? He has given: "Kṛṣṇa, the topmost scientist." Yes. "Perceiving the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa." He has given this article. How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not defective like other living beings? Huh? How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not . . . He is not defective because he is speaking what he has heard from Nārada. Therefore he is not defective. Just like we are speaking—we are not perfect; *we are also ordinary human being—but people are taking that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has done wonder." What is that wonder? I am speaking Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, that's all. Like the Mormon religion in America . . . No, no, don't bring any other . . . that is . . . He claimed that an angel . . . If you accept . . . we are taking from God. Kṛṣṇa instructed Brahmā, Brahmā instructed Nārada, Nārada instructed Vyāsadeva, and therefore we are taking. So it is a novel. Like Shakespeare wrote Hamlet . . . Yes. It may be novel for you because we take you as a mūḍha . We don't give any credit. We say . . . find out this, mūdho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param . I have this, mūḍho 'yam nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25)? Hmm. Hmm. "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent." Yes, the fools. He does not know Kṛṣṇa; therefore he is fool. Read it. "For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yogamāyā , and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible." So who is fool is defined as avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritaḥ (BG 9.11). Hmm? Who is a fool, that is defined in the other verse, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. Yes. Mānuṣīṁ tanum āśri . . . that one who considers Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being— mūḍha . So read the purport. "It may be argued that since Kṛṣṇa was present on this earth and was visible by everyone, then why isn't He manifest to everyone now? But actually, He was not manifest to everyone. When Kṛṣṇa was present there were only a few people who could understand Him to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the assembly of Kurus, when Śiśupāla spoke against Kṛṣṇa being elected president of the assembly, Bhīṣma supported Him and proclaimed Him to be the Supreme God. Similarly, the Pāṇḍavas and a few others . . ." Śiśupāla could not see, although Kṛṣṇa was present there, but Bhīṣma could see. So you require special eyes. *Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānām (BG 10.10). *Yes. Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ . . . (BS 5.38). So unless you are qualified, how you can see Kṛṣṇa? This is the point. Kṛṣṇa is there, and the rascal Śiśupāla could not see Him, but Bhīṣma could see Him. So they say, "Can you show me God?" Even God comes before you, unless you have got the qualified eyes you cannot see Him. Therefore qualification required. Premāñjana-cchurita. When your eyes will be anointed with . . . what is called? Salve of love. Ointment. Savoth? Salve, salve. What is the spelling? *Salve, s*-a-l-v-e. Oh, salve of love, yes. So that is required. Your . . . therefore tat- paratvena nirmalam. You have to make your senses purified; *then bhakti will begin. Otherwise it is karma . If your senses are not purified, then it is karma . There is a difference between karma and . . . Premāñjana*-cchurita . . . what is that? Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). If you think yourself that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am this," "I am that," then you are not upādhi-mukta; *therefore you cannot see Kṛṣṇa. You can see Kṛṣṇa when you are no more within these upādhis , pure soul. Brahma . . . that is real brahma*-bhūtaḥ , to understand the position of the soul and engage the soul in the service of the Lord. Then it is perfect. Go on. *"Similarly, the Pāṇḍavas and a few others knew that He was the Supreme, but not everyone. He was not revealed to the nondevotees and the common men. Therefore in the Gītā Kṛṣṇa says that but for His pure devotees, all men consider Him to be like themselves. He was manifest only to His devotees as the reservoir of all pleasure. But to others, to unintelligent nondevotees, He was covered by His eternal potency. In the prayers of Kunti in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam (SB 1.8.18), it is said that the Lord is covered by the curtain of yogamāyā , and thus ordinary people cannot understand Him. Kuntī prays: 'O my Lord, You are the maintainer of the entire universe, and devotional service to You is the highest religious principle. Therefore I pray that You will also maintain me. Your transcendental form is covered by the yoga-māyā . The brahma-jyotir is the covering of the internal potency. May You kindly remove this glowing effulgence that impedes my seeing Your sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (BS 5.1), Your eternal form of bliss and knowledge.' This yogamāyā curtain is also mentioned in the Fifteenth Chapter of the Gītā . The Supreme Personality of Godhead in His transcendental form of bliss and knowledge is covered by the eternal potency of brahma-jyotir, and the less intelligent impersonalists cannot see the Supreme on this account. Also in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (SB 10.14.7) there is this prayer by Brahmā: 'O Supreme Personality of Godhead, O Supersoul, O master of all mystery, who can calculate Your potency and pastimes in this world? You are always expanding Your eternal potency, and therefore no one can understand You. Learned scientists and learned scholars can examine the atomic constitution of the material world or even the planets, but still they are unable to calculate Your energy and potency, although You are present before them.' The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa, is not only unborn, but He is avyaya , inexhaustible. His eternal form is bliss and knowledge, and His energies are all inexhaustible." So, go and discuss. (end) Conversation -- January 8, 1976, Nellore *This is idea. Mano*-rathena , by mental speculation, āsato dhāvato , they will come to materialism. As soon as they will hover over mental concoction, they will remain in the material platform, because mind is subtle form of matter. Also, in their evidences by which they base their dialectic discussions, have they regarded the Vedic scriptures? They have avoided them very conveniently. *No, there is no question of dialectic discussion. Suppose I am discussing, you are discussing something, but if I am imperfect, you are imperfect, what is the value of such discussion? That is the point. The party discussing something, whether he is perfect? If he is not perfect, then go on discussing. We first of all say that any conditioned soul is defective, and that is admitted. They say: "We are not perfect." "I think," they say: "In my opinion," they say. Never they say, the so*-called scientists, "definite." And they cannot say it. That is like Dr. Frog's philosophy when they speculate. Yes. Simply speculation. So that kind of discussion, what is the value? It's always a hypothesis. If some children discuss some serious subject matter, what is the value? And they are all children in the cradle of nature, that's all. Prakṛteḥ kriya . . . therefore it is word, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni ( BG 3.27). Just like children: "Ha! Sit down here"—he has to sit down. Then where is his, I mean, freedom to discuss? Prakṛti says that "You sit down here. Don't go there." He has to accept. Then what is the value of discussion? Mainly, these Karl Marx, they were angry at the Christian church for exploiting the poor masses, and that's the reason . . . This is our . . . . . . so he has attacked. He has taken vengeance on this. *That they are doing. Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water. They have no philosophy, and they violate everything what is stated there in Bible. Now you say that, "Thou shall not kill", they say: "Thou shall not murder." They are molding. Now this homosex they are sanctioning, man*-to-man marriage. They are sanctioning abortion. Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest. Yes. Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual. Hmm? Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals. Just see. Is that religion? The simple fact that the Christians have to sprinkle water to convert means that they do not have any potency to by philosophy, to preach to them with strong philosophy. There is no . . . so, go on reading. I'll backspace two sentences. (break) ". . . have allowed us to wither away these different countries, and the religionists, they are keeping all the food. They are not distributing it." If we say that the Russia has no grains, they will say that they are big wheat producers in the southern part. They may counteract by saying: "We also produce a lot of wheat." They had to purchase wheat from America. Russia is importing its food grains now. So why they cannot produce sufficient, such a big country? And Eastern Europe, which is also communist, gets all its supplies from . . . No, what is their explanation? Russia is the biggest country. Land. The reason was that there was no rain. *Then? Then you have to depend on rain, and when we say parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ . . . hmm? And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). That means, rascal, you take one side, that ardha-kukuṭi-nyāya. Cut the chicken half, and separate the mouth—it is expensive—and keep the rear side, you get eggs. (laughter) So this is ardha-kukuṭi-nyāya . The rascal does not know that if you separate the mouth there will be no egg. They say that's depending upon nature. But they do not know who . . . *The word 'nature' should be condemned. That . . . no scientific*-minded person can say the word nature. *No, they do not know what is nature. Nature is an instrument, and there must be an operator. So that they do not know, the operator. Just like a child is thinking the motorcar is going automatically. He does not know there is a driver. The child sees that the airplane is flying. They think it is automatically going. And there is a pilot, he does not know. Similarly, these rascals, they are studying nature, but nature is an instrument only. It is being operated by Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). They have practical experience that without operator a machine cannot work. In the huge machine, how it is working unless there is operator? That they do not know. That's what they're never trying to find. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). Find out this verse. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍha . Therefore they are all mūḍhas . So we are not going to be misled by the mūḍhas . That is not possible. We take the instruction of the topmost intelligent person, Kṛṣṇa. I think our Svarūpa Dāmodara has said that. Where is that book? He has given: "Kṛṣṇa, the topmost scientist." Yes. "Perceiving the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa." He has given this article. How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not defective like other living beings? Huh? How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not . . . He is not defective because he is speaking what he has heard from Nārada. Therefore he is not defective. Just like we are speaking—we are not perfect; *we are also ordinary human being—but people are taking that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has done wonder." What is that wonder? I am speaking Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, that's all. Like the Mormon religion in America . . . No, no, don't bring any other . . . that is . . . He claimed that an angel . . . If you accept . . . we are taking from God. Kṛṣṇa instructed Brahmā, Brahmā instructed Nārada, Nārada instructed Vyāsadeva, and therefore we are taking. So it is a novel. Like Shakespeare wrote Hamlet . . . Yes. It may be novel for you because we take you as a mūḍha . We don't give any credit. We say . . . find out this, mūdho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param . I have this, mūḍho 'yam nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25)? Hmm. Hmm. "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent." Yes, the fools. He does not know Kṛṣṇa; therefore he is fool. Read it. "For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yogamāyā , and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible." So who is fool is defined as avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritaḥ (BG 9.11). Hmm? Who is a fool, that is defined in the other verse, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. Yes. Mānuṣīṁ tanum āśri . . . that one who considers Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being— mūḍha . So read the purport. "It may be argued that since Kṛṣṇa was present on this earth and was visible by everyone, then why isn't He manifest to everyone now? But actually, He was not manifest to everyone. When Kṛṣṇa was present there were only a few people who could understand Him to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the assembly of Kurus, when Śiśupāla spoke against Kṛṣṇa being elected president of the assembly, Bhīṣma supported Him and proclaimed Him to be the Supreme God. Similarly, the Pāṇḍavas and a few others . . ." Śiśupāla could not see, although Kṛṣṇa was present there, but Bhīṣma could see. So you require special eyes. *Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānām (BG 10.10). *Yes. Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ . . . (BS 5.38). So unless you are qualified, how you can see Kṛṣṇa? This is the point. Kṛṣṇa is there, and the rascal Śiśupāla could not see Him, but Bhīṣma could see Him. So they say, "Can you show me God?" Even God comes before you, unless you have got the qualified eyes you cannot see Him. Therefore qualification required. Premāñjana-cchurita. When your eyes will be anointed with . . . what is called? Salve of love. Ointment. Savoth? Salve, salve. What is the spelling? *Salve, s*-a-l-v-e. Oh, salve of love, yes. So that is required. Your . . . therefore tat- paratvena nirmalam. You have to make your senses purified; *then bhakti will begin. Otherwise it is karma . If your senses are not purified, then it is karma . There is a difference between karma and . . . Premāñjana*-cchurita . . . what is that? Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). If you think yourself that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am this," "I am that," then you are not upādhi-mukta; *therefore you cannot see Kṛṣṇa. You can see Kṛṣṇa when you are no more within these upādhis , pure soul. Brahma . . . that is real brahma*-bhūtaḥ , to understand the position of the soul and engage the soul in the service of the Lord. Then it is perfect. Go on. *"Similarly, the Pāṇḍavas and a few others knew that He was the Supreme, but not everyone. He was not revealed to the nondevotees and the common men. Therefore in the Gītā Kṛṣṇa says that but for His pure devotees, all men consider Him to be like themselves. He was manifest only to His devotees as the reservoir of all pleasure. But to others, to unintelligent nondevotees, He was covered by His eternal potency. In the prayers of Kunti in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam (SB 1.8.18), it is said that the Lord is covered by the curtain of yogamāyā , and thus ordinary people cannot understand Him. Kuntī prays: 'O my Lord, You are the maintainer of the entire universe, and devotional service to You is the highest religious principle. Therefore I pray that You will also maintain me. Your transcendental form is covered by the yoga-māyā . The brahma-jyotir is the covering of the internal potency. May You kindly remove this glowing effulgence that impedes my seeing Your sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (BS 5.1), Your eternal form of bliss and knowledge.' This yogamāyā curtain is also mentioned in the Fifteenth Chapter of the Gītā . The Supreme Personality of Godhead in His transcendental form of bliss and knowledge is covered by the eternal potency of brahma-jyotir, and the less intelligent impersonalists cannot see the Supreme on this account. Also in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (SB 10.14.7) there is this prayer by Brahmā: 'O Supreme Personality of Godhead, O Supersoul, O master of all mystery, who can calculate Your potency and pastimes in this world? You are always expanding Your eternal potency, and therefore no one can understand You. Learned scientists and learned scholars can examine the atomic constitution of the material world or even the planets, but still they are unable to calculate Your energy and potency, although You are present before them.' The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa, is not only unborn, but He is avyaya , inexhaustible. His eternal form is bliss and knowledge, and His energies are all inexhaustible." So, go and discuss. (end) Conversation -- January 15, 1976, Mayapur *So, of course, those days also not costly, 1945. I was paying only 200 rupees. Now you cannot get one room. So because it was famous, that ghost*-hauntly house, nobody was taking it. So I took it. (laughs) I don’t care for ghost. Actually there was ghost. And all the servants, they said: "Bābājī, therefore retire." They met. But I was chanting. (break) (man heard in another room ringing bell and chanting mantras ) He is going to chant? I think he washed his hands. This is his father here. (break) (end) Conversation -- January 15, 1976, Mayapur *So, of course, those days also not costly, 1945. I was paying only 200 rupees. Now you cannot get one room. So because it was famous, that ghost*-hauntly house, nobody was taking it. So I took it. (laughs) I don’t care for ghost. Actually there was ghost. And all the servants, they said: "Bābājī, therefore retire." They met. But I was chanting. (break) (man heard in another room ringing bell and chanting mantras ) He is going to chant? I think he washed his hands. This is his father here. (break) (end) Conversation -- January 16, 1976, Mayapur If he does not read *Bhāgavatam* , then he remains a rascal. Anything apart from the *Vedas* is not really knowledge. *No. May be some fragmental knowledge, but if one wants full knowledge in life, then he must read Bhāgavatam . Bhagavad*-gītā is the preliminary ABCD, and then let him read Bhāgavatam . (break) . . . venture, newspaper. (break) They have been taught like that. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ ( SB 7.5.31). They are passing as great leader for giving men wrong direction and spoil the life. He cannot save himself, and he can spoil himself very nicely. People's minds are so flickering. There's so much disturbance. *The mind is the first creation for material enjoyment. From the mind, senses are created: five senses for knowledge*-gathering and five senses for working, and five airs within the body. In this way the mind and fifteen. This is called ṣoḍāśa upacāra , sixteen. And then the ingredients, pañca-mahā-bhūta . Then intelligence, ahaṅkāra , false ego. These twenty-four, combination. And ātmā, jīva , and then Kṛṣṇa—twenty-six. The twenty-six combination is this body, mind, self, soul, Supersoul, everything. (pause) So, I am ready. I think it's just a little early yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hmm? Just a little early. It's still dark. I think ten minutes should be all right. Has this been used? Yes. All right. I'll take it and wash it. (break) *. . . is in ignorance. Combination of matter and soul, moving animals. Some of them are standing as trees and plant, and some of them are moving. Where is the science to study? What is your value of knowledge? Hmm? If they do not know the fundamental things, then what is the value of their knowledge? Simply observation, superficial, externally. There is good scope. They are receiving these books. We should take chance of preaching this Bhāgavatam , and the classes should be held especially . . . no, the religious classes are already there. Let them study Bhāgavatam , Bhagavad*-gītā . And they will accept it. They are not fools. Simply we have to introduce it. The Western people, they are not fools, but misguided. So you take the charge of guiding them; then Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will be successful. They will appreciate, they will take it up and reform, and their life will be successful. And if they utilize their intelligence how to reduce population and kill child within the womb and "There is no soul in the womb. When they come out then the soul becomes . . ." What is this nonsense? Unless there is soul, how it becomes manifest? It's obvious. If the body is growing within the womb, there must be life there. The same process is going on from the very beginning. A body is formed, and it develops. The child is born . . . the same process is going on. How do you say there is no soul? If there is no soul, how it has developed within the womb? Such rascals, they are passing on as big scientists. What is the reason they don't believe that there is no soul? They have really no argument. Just see. All dogmatic. All dogmatic foolishness they are propagating, and it is going on in the name of vijñāna , science. If they admitted the existence . . . *Vijñāna should be enunciated, vigata*-jñāna. Vigata . . . you understand vigata ? Vigata means lost. So vijñāna , you can make two meanings. Viśiṣṭa-jñāna. Viśiṣṭa, vi means . . . viśiṣṭa means full, explained knowledge. You can make this meaning. And another meaning you can do. Vi means vigata , "lost." So vigata-jñāna . Their vijñāna means vigata-jñāna, lost of all knowledge. So that is the word given in Bhagavad-gītā , māyayāprahṛta-jñānaḥ . This is vijñāna . You can explain in this way also. Māyayāpa . . . māyā has taken away their knowledge, and that is going on as vijñāna , science. Māyā has made them rascal, and they are presenting themselves as the man of advanced knowledge. A rascal is representing himself as advanced in knowledge. That is the defect of Kali-yuga. Advanced demoniac knowledge. *Yes. Advanced demon. Actually they are advanced demons, asura, asurī*-bhāvam āśritaḥ , being infected with the contamination of atheism, godlessness. ( japa ) They're actually very expert at avoiding the real issues. That is . . . a child can also do that. That is not expert. A child can advance in foolishness without any guidance. If the child touches fire, and if somebody says: "This is advancement of knowledge," then imagine what is the position. Similarly, all these rascals, they are endeavoring. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. He endeavored all through how to become immortal, which is impossible. But he advanced in that foolishness. Hiraṇyakaśipu was such a big demon, his only idea was that, "The devatās , they attack us sometimes. But now I shall attack them and plunder them. But because I am now practically immortal, what they will do? They cannot kill me. So I will go on with my demonic activities, and they cannot do anything." This is his foolishness. He did not know that he's the greatest foolishness that he was trying to become immortal. When it was said by Brahmā that, "No, no, it is not possible," still, he expected that, "I shall become immortal." Brahmā flatly said: "No, no, this is not possible. I am not immortal. How can I give you immortality?" But he would not hear even Brahmā. He thought that, "In an indirect way I shall befool this man, Brahmā." "All right, sir, then give me this benediction." "What is that?" "I'll not die in the land." "All right." "Not in the water." "Yes." "Not in the air." "No, yes." So he thought that "These three things finished. Then where shall I die? There are three things only—land, water, sky. So he has given me benediction I shall not die anywhere of these three. So I have cheated now." And then, "I shall not die in daytime." "Yes." "I shall not die in nighttime." But māyā dictated that there is another space or another place between day and night. (laughs) That he forgot. That is called sandhyā . That is accepted. Twilight. But he forgot that. And Kṛṣṇa is more intelligent. He . . . Hiraṇyakaśipu was not killed in daytime or nighttime. He was killed in the sandhyā . And so far land, sky and water is concerned, that also was played with tricks, that He killed him on the lap. You cannot say it is land; you cannot say it is sky; you cannot say it is water. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind that His devotee, Brahmā, has given him this benediction . . . without touching all those points. Hiraṇyakaśipu could not accuse Brahmā that, "Sir, you have cheated me." "No. Whatever you wanted, I have given you. You have cheated yourself. You do not know that your knowledge is imperfect. You cannot make it perfect. So that is your folly. But so far I am concerned, whatever you wanted, I said, 'Yes. Yes. Yes.' But I said also that, 'In spite of all this, you'll never live.' That is not possible. But, you fool, you did not take care of it. So in spite of cunningness, you remained a fool. You thought that you are very intelligent, cunning: 'I am now fully equipped; nobody can kill me.' But I said that it is not possible. I never cheated you. You cannot say that I have cheated you." It's just like in the law. They try to make the law so perfect that no one can get around it. But always there is some very smart lawyer who finds a loophole. Oh, yes. Big lawyer means to find out fault with the present law. That is big lawyer. (break) . . . to be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . (laughs) But these rascals are trying to be more intelligent. Therefore they are called rascals, fools, mūḍha . Moghāśā . *Ah. Moghāśā mogha*-karmaṇo mogha-jñāna-vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). (break) . . . Kṛṣṇa says simple thing, "You surrender unto Me. You'll get all protection." "No, no. That is not possible. I must do according to my own whims. Why shall I surrender?" "All right, go on. I'll give you facility for executing your whims. You'll get it. You do. Try your . . ." This is going on. Kṛṣṇa is giving good advice; he'll not accept it. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind, "All right, you do in your own way. I shall give you all facility." This is going on. That facility is māyā —his mind and māyā . He is desiring. That mind is also given by māyā , so that he can punish him very severely. So māyā has given as mind: "Now you go on desiring. After desiring, desiring, I will give you facility." Mind is an agent of punishment. Yes, this material mind. You see a madman: he is also acting in his mind. The mind is polluted; he is acting differently. Mind is there, but it is covered by some infection. Therefore a madman is thinking this way, that way, this way, that way. That's all. Constant anxiety. Useless. Killing himself. Sometimes a person who goes mad, they have to put them in a padded cell so that they don't harm themselves. *Yes. Otherwise he will create disadvantage to others. This is the cell—whole material world. You keep yourself within this cell and go on with your madness of mind. Still, Vedic instruction is there that if you do this way, then you go to that planet. If you do this way, then you go to here. Still, there is good. But within that, Kṛṣṇa is saying, mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25): "But you can come to Me also." But he will not take that instruction. Coming to Kṛṣṇa means they have to give up all their own personal desires. Yes, everything is there; simply we have to accept it. If we don't accept it, we suffer. What can be done? If you accept the path of going to hell in spite of higher authorities' instruction, then who can save me? That is going on. Rascal. He is thinking he has become very intelligent that he can deceive God, deceive spiritual master and be happy. (laughs) He does not know that he can neither deceive God or His representative, guru . That is not possible. But he is thinking like that. And he is being put into suffering condition. Just like ordinary thieves and rogues, they think, "I am deceiving government." But government has got so many agents that he will be arrested. But this sinful government may not be so expert, but how he can deceive the government of Kṛṣṇa? That is not possible. There's undercover agents in everybody. Everywhere, every direction. The land, the sky, the . . . Everything. . . . sun, moon. Everything is witness. They are bearing the witness. And especially He is sitting within the heart of everyone, īśvaraḥ sarva . . . how can you deceive Him? Kṛṣṇa knows more about what's going on than we do. *Anumantā upadṛṣṭā. Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). How these rascals think that, "I can deceive God"? *Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna (BG 7.15). Hmm. Mayācyuta . *Vigata. Vigata*-jñāna . *Vigata*-jñāna, yes. Vijñāna . Like children playing, they think that they've become a king or this or that, and they're completely absorbed. Why children? The children—the father also. I think they're all ready. (end) Conversation -- January 16, 1976, Mayapur If he does not read *Bhāgavatam* , then he remains a rascal. Anything apart from the *Vedas* is not really knowledge. *No. May be some fragmental knowledge, but if one wants full knowledge in life, then he must read Bhāgavatam . Bhagavad*-gītā is the preliminary ABCD, and then let him read Bhāgavatam . (break) . . . venture, newspaper. (break) They have been taught like that. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ ( SB 7.5.31). They are passing as great leader for giving men wrong direction and spoil the life. He cannot save himself, and he can spoil himself very nicely. People's minds are so flickering. There's so much disturbance. *The mind is the first creation for material enjoyment. From the mind, senses are created: five senses for knowledge*-gathering and five senses for working, and five airs within the body. In this way the mind and fifteen. This is called ṣoḍāśa upacāra , sixteen. And then the ingredients, pañca-mahā-bhūta . Then intelligence, ahaṅkāra , false ego. These twenty-four, combination. And ātmā, jīva , and then Kṛṣṇa—twenty-six. The twenty-six combination is this body, mind, self, soul, Supersoul, everything. (pause) So, I am ready. I think it's just a little early yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hmm? Just a little early. It's still dark. I think ten minutes should be all right. Has this been used? Yes. All right. I'll take it and wash it. (break) *. . . is in ignorance. Combination of matter and soul, moving animals. Some of them are standing as trees and plant, and some of them are moving. Where is the science to study? What is your value of knowledge? Hmm? If they do not know the fundamental things, then what is the value of their knowledge? Simply observation, superficial, externally. There is good scope. They are receiving these books. We should take chance of preaching this Bhāgavatam , and the classes should be held especially . . . no, the religious classes are already there. Let them study Bhāgavatam , Bhagavad*-gītā . And they will accept it. They are not fools. Simply we have to introduce it. The Western people, they are not fools, but misguided. So you take the charge of guiding them; then Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will be successful. They will appreciate, they will take it up and reform, and their life will be successful. And if they utilize their intelligence how to reduce population and kill child within the womb and "There is no soul in the womb. When they come out then the soul becomes . . ." What is this nonsense? Unless there is soul, how it becomes manifest? It's obvious. If the body is growing within the womb, there must be life there. The same process is going on from the very beginning. A body is formed, and it develops. The child is born . . . the same process is going on. How do you say there is no soul? If there is no soul, how it has developed within the womb? Such rascals, they are passing on as big scientists. What is the reason they don't believe that there is no soul? They have really no argument. Just see. All dogmatic. All dogmatic foolishness they are propagating, and it is going on in the name of vijñāna , science. If they admitted the existence . . . *Vijñāna should be enunciated, vigata*-jñāna. Vigata . . . you understand vigata ? Vigata means lost. So vijñāna , you can make two meanings. Viśiṣṭa-jñāna. Viśiṣṭa, vi means . . . viśiṣṭa means full, explained knowledge. You can make this meaning. And another meaning you can do. Vi means vigata , "lost." So vigata-jñāna . Their vijñāna means vigata-jñāna, lost of all knowledge. So that is the word given in Bhagavad-gītā , māyayāprahṛta-jñānaḥ . This is vijñāna . You can explain in this way also. Māyayāpa . . . māyā has taken away their knowledge, and that is going on as vijñāna , science. Māyā has made them rascal, and they are presenting themselves as the man of advanced knowledge. A rascal is representing himself as advanced in knowledge. That is the defect of Kali-yuga. Advanced demoniac knowledge. *Yes. Advanced demon. Actually they are advanced demons, asura, asurī*-bhāvam āśritaḥ , being infected with the contamination of atheism, godlessness. ( japa ) They're actually very expert at avoiding the real issues. That is . . . a child can also do that. That is not expert. A child can advance in foolishness without any guidance. If the child touches fire, and if somebody says: "This is advancement of knowledge," then imagine what is the position. Similarly, all these rascals, they are endeavoring. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. He endeavored all through how to become immortal, which is impossible. But he advanced in that foolishness. Hiraṇyakaśipu was such a big demon, his only idea was that, "The devatās , they attack us sometimes. But now I shall attack them and plunder them. But because I am now practically immortal, what they will do? They cannot kill me. So I will go on with my demonic activities, and they cannot do anything." This is his foolishness. He did not know that he's the greatest foolishness that he was trying to become immortal. When it was said by Brahmā that, "No, no, it is not possible," still, he expected that, "I shall become immortal." Brahmā flatly said: "No, no, this is not possible. I am not immortal. How can I give you immortality?" But he would not hear even Brahmā. He thought that, "In an indirect way I shall befool this man, Brahmā." "All right, sir, then give me this benediction." "What is that?" "I'll not die in the land." "All right." "Not in the water." "Yes." "Not in the air." "No, yes." So he thought that "These three things finished. Then where shall I die? There are three things only—land, water, sky. So he has given me benediction I shall not die anywhere of these three. So I have cheated now." And then, "I shall not die in daytime." "Yes." "I shall not die in nighttime." But māyā dictated that there is another space or another place between day and night. (laughs) That he forgot. That is called sandhyā . That is accepted. Twilight. But he forgot that. And Kṛṣṇa is more intelligent. He . . . Hiraṇyakaśipu was not killed in daytime or nighttime. He was killed in the sandhyā . And so far land, sky and water is concerned, that also was played with tricks, that He killed him on the lap. You cannot say it is land; you cannot say it is sky; you cannot say it is water. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind that His devotee, Brahmā, has given him this benediction . . . without touching all those points. Hiraṇyakaśipu could not accuse Brahmā that, "Sir, you have cheated me." "No. Whatever you wanted, I have given you. You have cheated yourself. You do not know that your knowledge is imperfect. You cannot make it perfect. So that is your folly. But so far I am concerned, whatever you wanted, I said, 'Yes. Yes. Yes.' But I said also that, 'In spite of all this, you'll never live.' That is not possible. But, you fool, you did not take care of it. So in spite of cunningness, you remained a fool. You thought that you are very intelligent, cunning: 'I am now fully equipped; nobody can kill me.' But I said that it is not possible. I never cheated you. You cannot say that I have cheated you." It's just like in the law. They try to make the law so perfect that no one can get around it. But always there is some very smart lawyer who finds a loophole. Oh, yes. Big lawyer means to find out fault with the present law. That is big lawyer. (break) . . . to be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . (laughs) But these rascals are trying to be more intelligent. Therefore they are called rascals, fools, mūḍha . Moghāśā . *Ah. Moghāśā mogha*-karmaṇo mogha-jñāna-vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). (break) . . . Kṛṣṇa says simple thing, "You surrender unto Me. You'll get all protection." "No, no. That is not possible. I must do according to my own whims. Why shall I surrender?" "All right, go on. I'll give you facility for executing your whims. You'll get it. You do. Try your . . ." This is going on. Kṛṣṇa is giving good advice; he'll not accept it. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind, "All right, you do in your own way. I shall give you all facility." This is going on. That facility is māyā —his mind and māyā . He is desiring. That mind is also given by māyā , so that he can punish him very severely. So māyā has given as mind: "Now you go on desiring. After desiring, desiring, I will give you facility." Mind is an agent of punishment. Yes, this material mind. You see a madman: he is also acting in his mind. The mind is polluted; he is acting differently. Mind is there, but it is covered by some infection. Therefore a madman is thinking this way, that way, this way, that way. That's all. Constant anxiety. Useless. Killing himself. Sometimes a person who goes mad, they have to put them in a padded cell so that they don't harm themselves. *Yes. Otherwise he will create disadvantage to others. This is the cell—whole material world. You keep yourself within this cell and go on with your madness of mind. Still, Vedic instruction is there that if you do this way, then you go to that planet. If you do this way, then you go to here. Still, there is good. But within that, Kṛṣṇa is saying, mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25): "But you can come to Me also." But he will not take that instruction. Coming to Kṛṣṇa means they have to give up all their own personal desires. Yes, everything is there; simply we have to accept it. If we don't accept it, we suffer. What can be done? If you accept the path of going to hell in spite of higher authorities' instruction, then who can save me? That is going on. Rascal. He is thinking he has become very intelligent that he can deceive God, deceive spiritual master and be happy. (laughs) He does not know that he can neither deceive God or His representative, guru . That is not possible. But he is thinking like that. And he is being put into suffering condition. Just like ordinary thieves and rogues, they think, "I am deceiving government." But government has got so many agents that he will be arrested. But this sinful government may not be so expert, but how he can deceive the government of Kṛṣṇa? That is not possible. There's undercover agents in everybody. Everywhere, every direction. The land, the sky, the . . . Everything. . . . sun, moon. Everything is witness. They are bearing the witness. And especially He is sitting within the heart of everyone, īśvaraḥ sarva . . . how can you deceive Him? Kṛṣṇa knows more about what's going on than we do. *Anumantā upadṛṣṭā. Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). How these rascals think that, "I can deceive God"? *Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna (BG 7.15). Hmm. Mayācyuta . *Vigata. Vigata*-jñāna . *Vigata*-jñāna, yes. Vijñāna . Like children playing, they think that they've become a king or this or that, and they're completely absorbed. Why children? The children—the father also. I think they're all ready. (end) Conversation -- January 17, 1976, Mayapur *". . . Sanat Kumāras were going to Vaikuṇṭha to visit Lord Viṣṇu. They were stopped at the door by the doorkeepers, Jaya and Vijaya. But specifically, the Supreme Lord cannot be seen by ordinary eyes. But He can now become visible to the eyesight of the Kumāras. Another significant word is samādhi*-vākyam . Meditators who are very fortunate see the Viṣṇu form of the Lord within their hearts by following the yoga process. But to see Him eye to eye is a different matter. It is only possible for pure devotees. The Kumāras therefore, before seeing the Lord . . ." (break) . . . āratika ? No. No. That . . . They have kīrtanas . . . Going on. Yes. (break) They could see the Lord face to face? Yes. Dhruva Mahārāja saw face to face. (break) . . . factured this in Hawaii. (break) *So then the chance is lost. Repeatedly Kṛṣṇa is saying: "You give up all this habit. Just become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Sarva*-dharmān . . ." Nobody will hear. "Why shall I not?" There is a Bengali song, cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo keno dekhbo nā : "If it is gratifying to my eyes, why shall I not see a beautiful woman? Why you are forbidding me?" Cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo : "It is pleasing to my eyes. Why you are forbidding me?" This is going on. Cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo. If there is little happiness, don't mind it is flickering; *it will go on. The Carvaka Muni: ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet : "Some way or other prepare foodstuff with ghee." "I have no money." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā : "Just take. Beg, borrow, steal, bring ghee and prepare nice foodstuff and eat, and enjoy life." This is the material world. But śāstra says: "No, no, no. Don't do this. This is the hog's business. Tapo . Just try to go, follow austerity." Even those who are so*-called advanced in knowledge— karmī, jñānī, yogī —they are also after sense gratification. Karmī is openly after sense gratification, and jñānī is subtly, "No, no. This kind of . . ." Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . "Now I shall enjoy Brahman. I shall become God." This is another side, the same sense enjoyment. Because I have failed becoming a minister or becoming a king, becoming a leader, becoming . . . I have failed; now I shall become God. Same sense grati . . . they cannot understand that this is also sense gratification. "I am not . . . no more satisfied by becoming a little minister and king and . . . no. I shall become God. Why shall I . . . by becoming king or minister I beg to the goddess of fortune, 'Mother, give me a little money.' Why shall I beg? I shall enjoy her. I become Nārāyaṇa." Same disease. A yogī also, after mystic power they want to show magic: "I shall make like this, and gold will be there. People will worship me as I am God." Do that. People do that. If you play something wonderful they will accept you: "Oh, you are God." But he does not know that he cannot become God. That is not possible. Although he gets little fractional authority to puzzle others that he has become God . . . because people are fools, if he can produce little gold like this, they will be immediately amazed, "Oh, how powerful he is." They have no capacity to understand. If God is meant for making gold, why not worship the God who has made already millions of gold mines? Unlimited. There is no limit. Why this paltry god? They have no such knowledge. They are amazed. They have to go to so much trouble as well just to achieve that little flickering . . . Very, very great trouble. You have not seen the yogīs ? Of course, there are some . . . (break) But still, they have to undergo very severe processes for achieving this yogic power. And a devotee, they kick it that, "What is this nonsense?" (chuckles) That is devotee. "What is this nonsense? What shall I do by producing gold?" And I never tried for making gold, but is there any scarcity of gold? I never tried for how to make gold. That Sai Baba is showing some magic power. What of the Maharshi? Maha . . . Maharishi. He was also after some yogic power. I don't know. You were with him. You do not know? "The transcendental meditation—you will get this, you will get that." He is advertising in that . . . All material opulence. Ultimately you will become God. Yes. This is the attempt. And in the meantime, you can enjoy material world. Yes. They never said anything more than you'll just get good sex life and good health. That is . . . becoming God means the same—money and sex. That's all. Wouldn't it be handy, though, to be able to fly around without having to use airplanes? Hmm? I mean, if you had some mystic opulence like being able to fly. Yes, the yogīs can do that. Wouldn't that be handy? Wouldn't a devotee . . . couldn't a devotee utilize that? What is the use? What is the use? Well, instead of taking airplanes here and there, you could just . . . No, no. What is the difference? If by practicing severe yogic means you fly, the birds are also flying. They are flying without aeroplane. Does it mean that it has become very great? There are many birds, garuḍa bird. They can fly from one planet to another. Just like small birds, they fly from one tree to another, take rest again—so they fly from this planet to another, take rest, again another. What is the value of your aeroplane? You cannot go to another planet. There are birds, they catch up elephants and take it away for eating. Does it mean he has become . . . it has become God? There are Siddhaloka planets where the people can go without any aeroplane from one planet to another, Siddhaloka. They have got all yogic siddhi automatically, by birth. Just like we cannot fly, but a small bird, a small fly, from the birth it can fly. There are so many. So similarly, by birth they have got all yogic siddhis . This is called Siddhaloka. There are different varieties of planets, different varieties of perfection. Just like here also, I cannot dive into the water. A small fish can dive. I cannot fly in the sky, but a small sparrow, it can go from here, here, immediately. So does it mean he is very advanced in yogic power because he can fly? You are proposing that. Huh? Nothing is any big achievement. The big achievement is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted. Not these things. These things . . . you cannot do; I can do. I cannot do; he can do. What is the greatness? It seems harder to control the tongue than to fly. Huh? It seems harder to control the tongue than to fly. Fly? It takes more austerity to control one's tongue by chanting and taking prasādam . *Even that is not achievement. To control the senses, that is not very great achievement. The great achievement: how we have become a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So that will include everything. You haven't got to prepare gold, but if you want gold, Kṛṣṇa will send you. So why should I try for that and waste my time? Let me become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is required. Kṛṣṇa . . . yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham ( BG 9.22): "I shall give you all protection. I shall supply whatever you want," Kṛṣṇa said. So I shall do such thing when Kṛṣṇa will be my protector and supplier and everything. He is all-powerful, so He will do that—if I require. I don't require anything. I . . . simply I have to become a sincere, pure devotee. But if I require something, it will come from Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I try for it? A rich man's son, he doesn't do anything for earning money. He knows, "My father is rich, and as soon as I require money, he will give me. So why shall I become a big, big businessman and become a karmī ?" Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upāry adhaḥ (SB 1.5.18). You try for that thing which you did not achieve so long, even if you have traveled from different species of life, different planets. For that thing you try, which you have not achieved. Simply you have become implicated. Why bother with something that's available to a hog? Huh? Why bother with something that is available even to the hogs? *Yes. Now, even if you achieve such thing, achievement, so where is the guarantee that you'll . . . it will stay? The so*-called achievements for sense gratification, that means body. The body is always troublesome. That day I was asking, "Did you taste the Birla's eggplant?" You said: "No, I could not take it," due to the body. So even things are there, the body will not allow you. There are many rich men, they have got money, but they cannot eat anything. That John Paul Getty is the richest man in the world, and they asked him, "What would be your wish if you could have anything?" He said: "I just want to be healthy." He said, "I've got so much money, but I'm not healthy." Yes. There are many. There was a big, rich man in Calcutta, Raja Jyotindramana Ṭhākura. So just like you give me so many things, so he was king, he was getting more supply, but he had no appetite. So one day he was given so many things—because it was routine. So one coolie was going on the street, taking a fish and chanting very pleasingly. So he said that, "Instead of becoming Raja Jyotindramana Ṭhākura, if I could have been a coolie like that, at least I could enjoy by eating. And what is this? I have got everything, but I cannot eat." He regretted, "I would have become a coolie like that instead of becoming a . . ." Everybody's mad after getting some big position, and then when they get it they find out it's even worse than where they started. Because the body does not allow. So all, from all sides. We were discussing Prahlāda Mahārāja's . . . how he is experienced of this material way of life. It is all useless. So by following this mahājana devotees we can make our life perfect. Nothing is wanted except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfection of life. That is instruction of . . . na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarim (CC Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4). No, we don't want. Then what do you want? Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatad bhaktir ahaitukī . Without any motive let me become a sincere devotee of Lord. I don't want. That is perfection. Disgusted. Ar' nare bapu . No more. Everything useless. (pause) Hmm. Some smell is coming? No? Your transcendental senses are far beyond . . . (door closes) Hmm. Automatically locked. The ghosts will be here too. Hmm? The ghosts, they will be here too. (end) Conversation -- January 17, 1976, Mayapur *". . . Sanat Kumāras were going to Vaikuṇṭha to visit Lord Viṣṇu. They were stopped at the door by the doorkeepers, Jaya and Vijaya. But specifically, the Supreme Lord cannot be seen by ordinary eyes. But He can now become visible to the eyesight of the Kumāras. Another significant word is samādhi*-vākyam . Meditators who are very fortunate see the Viṣṇu form of the Lord within their hearts by following the yoga process. But to see Him eye to eye is a different matter. It is only possible for pure devotees. The Kumāras therefore, before seeing the Lord . . ." (break) . . . āratika ? No. No. That . . . They have kīrtanas . . . Going on. Yes. (break) They could see the Lord face to face? Yes. Dhruva Mahārāja saw face to face. (break) . . . factured this in Hawaii. (break) *So then the chance is lost. Repeatedly Kṛṣṇa is saying: "You give up all this habit. Just become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Sarva*-dharmān . . ." Nobody will hear. "Why shall I not?" There is a Bengali song, cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo keno dekhbo nā : "If it is gratifying to my eyes, why shall I not see a beautiful woman? Why you are forbidding me?" Cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo : "It is pleasing to my eyes. Why you are forbidding me?" This is going on. Cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo. If there is little happiness, don't mind it is flickering; *it will go on. The Carvaka Muni: ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet : "Some way or other prepare foodstuff with ghee." "I have no money." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā : "Just take. Beg, borrow, steal, bring ghee and prepare nice foodstuff and eat, and enjoy life." This is the material world. But śāstra says: "No, no, no. Don't do this. This is the hog's business. Tapo . Just try to go, follow austerity." Even those who are so*-called advanced in knowledge— karmī, jñānī, yogī —they are also after sense gratification. Karmī is openly after sense gratification, and jñānī is subtly, "No, no. This kind of . . ." Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . "Now I shall enjoy Brahman. I shall become God." This is another side, the same sense enjoyment. Because I have failed becoming a minister or becoming a king, becoming a leader, becoming . . . I have failed; now I shall become God. Same sense grati . . . they cannot understand that this is also sense gratification. "I am not . . . no more satisfied by becoming a little minister and king and . . . no. I shall become God. Why shall I . . . by becoming king or minister I beg to the goddess of fortune, 'Mother, give me a little money.' Why shall I beg? I shall enjoy her. I become Nārāyaṇa." Same disease. A yogī also, after mystic power they want to show magic: "I shall make like this, and gold will be there. People will worship me as I am God." Do that. People do that. If you play something wonderful they will accept you: "Oh, you are God." But he does not know that he cannot become God. That is not possible. Although he gets little fractional authority to puzzle others that he has become God . . . because people are fools, if he can produce little gold like this, they will be immediately amazed, "Oh, how powerful he is." They have no capacity to understand. If God is meant for making gold, why not worship the God who has made already millions of gold mines? Unlimited. There is no limit. Why this paltry god? They have no such knowledge. They are amazed. They have to go to so much trouble as well just to achieve that little flickering . . . Very, very great trouble. You have not seen the yogīs ? Of course, there are some . . . (break) But still, they have to undergo very severe processes for achieving this yogic power. And a devotee, they kick it that, "What is this nonsense?" (chuckles) That is devotee. "What is this nonsense? What shall I do by producing gold?" And I never tried for making gold, but is there any scarcity of gold? I never tried for how to make gold. That Sai Baba is showing some magic power. What of the Maharshi? Maha . . . Maharishi. He was also after some yogic power. I don't know. You were with him. You do not know? "The transcendental meditation—you will get this, you will get that." He is advertising in that . . . All material opulence. Ultimately you will become God. Yes. This is the attempt. And in the meantime, you can enjoy material world. Yes. They never said anything more than you'll just get good sex life and good health. That is . . . becoming God means the same—money and sex. That's all. Wouldn't it be handy, though, to be able to fly around without having to use airplanes? Hmm? I mean, if you had some mystic opulence like being able to fly. Yes, the yogīs can do that. Wouldn't that be handy? Wouldn't a devotee . . . couldn't a devotee utilize that? What is the use? What is the use? Well, instead of taking airplanes here and there, you could just . . . No, no. What is the difference? If by practicing severe yogic means you fly, the birds are also flying. They are flying without aeroplane. Does it mean that it has become very great? There are many birds, garuḍa bird. They can fly from one planet to another. Just like small birds, they fly from one tree to another, take rest again—so they fly from this planet to another, take rest, again another. What is the value of your aeroplane? You cannot go to another planet. There are birds, they catch up elephants and take it away for eating. Does it mean he has become . . . it has become God? There are Siddhaloka planets where the people can go without any aeroplane from one planet to another, Siddhaloka. They have got all yogic siddhi automatically, by birth. Just like we cannot fly, but a small bird, a small fly, from the birth it can fly. There are so many. So similarly, by birth they have got all yogic siddhis . This is called Siddhaloka. There are different varieties of planets, different varieties of perfection. Just like here also, I cannot dive into the water. A small fish can dive. I cannot fly in the sky, but a small sparrow, it can go from here, here, immediately. So does it mean he is very advanced in yogic power because he can fly? You are proposing that. Huh? Nothing is any big achievement. The big achievement is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted. Not these things. These things . . . you cannot do; I can do. I cannot do; he can do. What is the greatness? It seems harder to control the tongue than to fly. Huh? It seems harder to control the tongue than to fly. Fly? It takes more austerity to control one's tongue by chanting and taking prasādam . *Even that is not achievement. To control the senses, that is not very great achievement. The great achievement: how we have become a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So that will include everything. You haven't got to prepare gold, but if you want gold, Kṛṣṇa will send you. So why should I try for that and waste my time? Let me become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is required. Kṛṣṇa . . . yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham ( BG 9.22): "I shall give you all protection. I shall supply whatever you want," Kṛṣṇa said. So I shall do such thing when Kṛṣṇa will be my protector and supplier and everything. He is all-powerful, so He will do that—if I require. I don't require anything. I . . . simply I have to become a sincere, pure devotee. But if I require something, it will come from Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I try for it? A rich man's son, he doesn't do anything for earning money. He knows, "My father is rich, and as soon as I require money, he will give me. So why shall I become a big, big businessman and become a karmī ?" Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upāry adhaḥ (SB 1.5.18). You try for that thing which you did not achieve so long, even if you have traveled from different species of life, different planets. For that thing you try, which you have not achieved. Simply you have become implicated. Why bother with something that's available to a hog? Huh? Why bother with something that is available even to the hogs? *Yes. Now, even if you achieve such thing, achievement, so where is the guarantee that you'll . . . it will stay? The so*-called achievements for sense gratification, that means body. The body is always troublesome. That day I was asking, "Did you taste the Birla's eggplant?" You said: "No, I could not take it," due to the body. So even things are there, the body will not allow you. There are many rich men, they have got money, but they cannot eat anything. That John Paul Getty is the richest man in the world, and they asked him, "What would be your wish if you could have anything?" He said: "I just want to be healthy." He said, "I've got so much money, but I'm not healthy." Yes. There are many. There was a big, rich man in Calcutta, Raja Jyotindramana Ṭhākura. So just like you give me so many things, so he was king, he was getting more supply, but he had no appetite. So one day he was given so many things—because it was routine. So one coolie was going on the street, taking a fish and chanting very pleasingly. So he said that, "Instead of becoming Raja Jyotindramana Ṭhākura, if I could have been a coolie like that, at least I could enjoy by eating. And what is this? I have got everything, but I cannot eat." He regretted, "I would have become a coolie like that instead of becoming a . . ." Everybody's mad after getting some big position, and then when they get it they find out it's even worse than where they started. Because the body does not allow. So all, from all sides. We were discussing Prahlāda Mahārāja's . . . how he is experienced of this material way of life. It is all useless. So by following this mahājana devotees we can make our life perfect. Nothing is wanted except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfection of life. That is instruction of . . . na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarim (CC Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4). No, we don't want. Then what do you want? Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatad bhaktir ahaitukī . Without any motive let me become a sincere devotee of Lord. I don't want. That is perfection. Disgusted. Ar' nare bapu . No more. Everything useless. (pause) Hmm. Some smell is coming? No? Your transcendental senses are far beyond . . . (door closes) Hmm. Automatically locked. The ghosts will be here too. Hmm? The ghosts, they will be here too. (end) Conversation -- January 18, 1976, Mayapur *. . . Viśvanātha Cakravartī has discussed. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so easy: man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto , four principles. Why people do not take to it? (background talking) Hmm? What is that? He just wanted to know if someone was allowed to come for darśana . Yes, let them come. This time, five to seven? (conchshell sounds) Uni ekjan amader . . . (He is one of our . . .) (break) *Śrīmad*-bhāgavata-dharma is for the person who is not jealous. Paramo nirmatśarāṇāṁ ( SB 1.1.2). This very word is used in the beginning that, "This bhāgavata-dharma is meant for persons who is not jealous." Otherwise the material whole world is full of jealousy. Even during the time of Kṛṣṇa there was Paundra, out of jealousy. And there were so many. Beginning from Kṛṣṇa's birth the asuras , they were jealous: "How to kill Kṛṣṇa." This is the whole mat . . . even in the higher planetary system the jealousy is there, asuras and the devas , devāsura . So our business is, as instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā . This jealousy will go on. Therefore one has to learn how to tolerate jealousy. Kīrtaniyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). If one wants to push on this saṅkīrtana movement . . . Prabhupāda . . . we are insignificant creature. So many persons. You cannot avoid it. The best way is to learn how to tolerate. That is very nice. Otherwise Caitanya Mahāprabhu not have said taror api sahiṣṇunā . That is the best. So we are not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, neither like Prabhupāda, and we shall have to learn to tolerate. Kintu dekhen Prabhupader samay kato biruddhe . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (But see during the time of Prabhupāda (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur) many anti . . .) Er yodi biradhita korte pare . . . (If they can protest him . . .) Hobei . . . (This will happen . . .) Ta amar biruddhe korbe ei ar . . . eto kichui na. (This is not a big thing if they also protest me . . .) *(indistinct) . . . yara prabhur seva korchen, tader biruddhe hobei. Ora negative contain . . . ba ekta apnar anti party na thakle . . . anya keu na thakle alocana seta . . . (indistinct) . . . tara bujhbe . . . (those who are serving the Lord, people will be against them. They will find out negative content . . . or if there won't, it will be an anti*-party . . . if there won't be different people, then how will that be discussed . . . (indistinct) . . . they will understand . . .) *Prabhupāda Na, bujhuk na bujhuk, ami ye*-sob ya kaj korte beriyechi, keu bujhbe na bujhbe, yay na kono . . . ami . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (No, they understand or not, I went out to do that work, whether they understand or not . . . I . . .) Tobe amar mone hoy, onekei bujhechilen, yara bujhchen na ekhon tara svikar korchen na. Tao tara dukhche, eta amader anander bisay. (But I think many people have understood, who they have understood, they are not admitting. But still they are joining the movement. This is our happiness.) *It is clearly written in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta that kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nāhe kṛṣṇa nāma pracāraṇa (CC Antya 7.11). So even they have no common sense, what can be done? Eta svikar korte hobe, Krsna sakti . . . (We have to admit, that is the strength of Kṛṣṇa . . .) *No, no, this formula, that this is something new in the history of the world, and still they are jealous, what is this? They are finding fault. In Vṛndāvana, Nṛsiṁha*-vallabha Gosvāmī, you know? He comes to me. He says: "So many people are jealous upon you." I say that, "First of all you create something like me, then you become jealous." Seta khamata nei. (They don't have that quality.) Ami asha kori Maharaj, khub alpo diner madhye sob dekhben apnar anugami hobe. Ami serakam kichu . . . (Mahārāja, I hope they will start following you soon. I have seen something like . . .) *Sei janye ami cup*-cap thaki . . . (That's why I remain silent . . .) Ager theke onek sob paribartan hoyeche. Ami ebong khub bhalo bhabei ei katha bolechi ye, ekhon to Maharajer . . . (Many things have changed from before. Simply I told them that, now Mahārāja is . . .) Na, se karuk na karuk, amar . . . eto yai hok, ami nije nijei, ascarya hoye yai . . . na ami to kono jealousy mone kori na . . . (No, they take it or not, I . . . whatever, sometimes I get astonished myself . . .) Tate Prabhupād . . . apnar gurudev santusta hoben. (Then Prabhupāda . . . your Gurudeva will be happy.) Tabe tara ye dictate kore oita amar . . . tara dictate korbe keno? (But they dictate to me, that's I . . . why do they dictate?) First of all let them become like me. Then . . . Samane, samane bandhutta hobe. Ye baro se dictate korbe, ar ye choto se manyata korbe eta hocche niom. Se samanatao nei, ar unnatao nei tahole dictate kore keno? Ami ki korechi ta diye oder kaj ki? (Equal people will make friends. Seniors will dictate and the junior will obey, this is the rule. But they are not equal to me and they are not superior to me then why do they dictate me?) Seta ami bujhte perechi. (I understand that.) Tahole dictate korte yay keno? Eita tader murkhata. Dictate korbe ke? Ye baro. (So why do they come to dictate? This is their foolishness. Who will dictate? Who is superior?) The superior, he will dictate. And yes, equal, they will live like friends. And those who are junior, they should follow and obey. This is the Vaiṣṇava niyama . So those who are neither equal nor higher, how they can dictate? That is their mistake. Either first of all become higher than him—then you dictate—or you be equal with him—then you suggest. You are lower and you want to dictate? What is this nonsense? Bujhte perechen? Eta hocche niyam. Niyamtai jane na. (Do you understand? This is the rule. They even don't know the rules.) By standard, one who is lower, they want to dictate. Ekhane emon abasta, apni to bollen ye, Prabhupad ke ami to apnar ei darshan . . . (indistinct) . . . tarpar amra amader baktabya rakhchi apnar sammandhye, yara buddhi jibi . . . (Here the situation is, you say this, "I have seen Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . after that we have to present a speech on you," those who are intelligent . . .) (loud conchshell) Bās . (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Radharaman M.L.A . . . Radharaman, amader ei Nabadwip . . . (indistinct) . . . royeche, ami congress office bollam, apni asben Jayapataka Maharajke niye gelam okhane . . . (indistinct) . . . apnader bollam ye apni milita hoben ISKCON hacche Prabhupāder . . . (indistinct) . . . ese bollo ye hya ami yabo, kintu kichu lok apatti korlo ye photo rakhte parbe na . . . kintu er madhye . . . apnara . . . Maharaj tomakei pasanda kore na Jayapataka Maharaj, oi apnar Radharaman, ora apatti korlo ye photo kora yabe na. Kintu amar iccha ye dujane ek jaygay ekta photor madhye thaklam. Yai hok se kadin yebe ananda . . . Radharaman ke bollam ye, bhai tumi amake ektu kol dao, yara namer janya sarvasya bhog, bilas tyag kore yader bhoger madhyei janma ebong ei katha yini biswas koraichen yini pascatya jagate e baro sangatik byapar, eta ekta . . . (indistinct) . . . ekhane kichu janbar ba amader bojhbar ache. Ami sir ke niye gelam aslen na. (Radharaman M.L.A . . . Radharaman, in our Nabadwip . . . (indistinct) . . . have, I will go with Jayapataka Mahārāja to the congress office and told them that you will come . . . (indistinct) . . . I told them to join ISKCON, this is Prabhupāda's . . . (indistinct) . . . he told me that, "Yes I will go," but some people refused us to take a photo . . . but meanwhile . . . you . . . that Radharaman doesn't like Jayapataka Mahārāja, that's why they have an objection that a photo can't be taken. But my wish is if we both are together in a single photo. Then I can feel happy someday . . . I told Radharaman to give a place for those who have left everything for this holy name, their sense gratification and all, actually they were born in sense gratification and the person makes them believe in that. That is a very big thing . . . (indistinct) . . . we have many things to know from him. I thought to bring him here but he didn't come.) (break) *They may be very big visioner. . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . tarpar yakhan baire ase, ya icche kor, ya icche kor, ya icche kor. Gala ta jariye dhore. Thik sei rakam. Eikhane te bose bhoger borai korle ki hobe? Ar ye Caitanya Mahaprabhu katha ta pracar karo jagate. (after that when they come outside, they do whatever they can. By hugging them. Just like that. Is this okay to feel proud from here? Frost, you have to preach the massage of Caitanya Mahāprabhu,) Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). Eisob asche sob prthivi theke. (They are coming from all over the world.) A pakkā Vaiṣṇava like you, to find out faults, what is this? Rādhārāṇī is . . . kache loke approach kore eita tar gun hocche ye, Rādhārāṇīr kache keu yodi approach . . . Rādhārāṇīr ekta . . . ki bolen? Rādhārāṇī kache approach kore keno loke? Jaya Radhe! Rādhārāṇī ekbar ektu recommendation kore dey, kaj hoye yay. To tini sobi to demand korlen. Khub bhalo bhakta athaca dosh darshi. Radharani mone koren . . . tini janei na keu dosh korte pare. (People approach Rādhārāṇī because she has a special quality, that if someone approaches Rādhārāṇī . . . Rādhārāṇī is . . . what do you say about this? Why do people approach Rādhārāṇī? They say "Jaya Radhe!", because if Rādhārāṇī gives a recommendation once, then the work will be done very easily. So he has demanded everything. He is a good devotee as well as fault seeker. Rādhārāṇī doesn't think that people have any mistakes.) They have not united, they have disunited. And here, practically you see all religions, all nations, all persons, all philosophy. Everything is there. Era ye sob America theke eseche, eder ke ki kichu ghush diye ana hoyeche? (They all came here from America, were they brought in with a bribe?) They have come with their life . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . nicche (taking.) Or yodi bola hoy . . . (indistinct) . . . ei ghush diye deoa hobe . . . (If we told them . . . (indistinct) . . . will give a bribe . . .) Ederke bole CIA! (They are called CIA.) Ei holo eder gun. (These are the qualities of them.) CIA! Bhakta hoye ar ca paryanta bidi paryanta chere diye, eikhane nece tara . . . (indistinct) . . . lagiye dicche. (They have left tea, bīḍī and everything after becoming a bhakta and they are dancing . . . (indistinct) . . . they are giving.) You know less common sense they have. They haven't got even common sense. Ami apnar sambaraner byabasta kori Krsnanagare, er age kichu lok mane . . . ora to ekta biradhita korbe . . . (I arranged something to welcome you in Krishnanagar, before that, some people means . . . those who will protest . . .) (break) . . . on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, so all the money should be given to us. The money actually belongs to Kṛṣṇa. You, by tricks, you are holding it. (knock) Yes? Asun, asun. Bhalo acho? (Please come in. How are you?) Bhalo achi. (I am fine.) Open this. Open. Apnar anumati anusare ami government . . . (According to your permission the government . . .) (break) (end) Conversation -- January 18, 1976, Mayapur *. . . Viśvanātha Cakravartī has discussed. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so easy: man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto , four principles. Why people do not take to it? (background talking) Hmm? What is that? He just wanted to know if someone was allowed to come for darśana . Yes, let them come. This time, five to seven? (conchshell sounds) Uni ekjan amader . . . (He is one of our . . .) (break) *Śrīmad*-bhāgavata-dharma is for the person who is not jealous. Paramo nirmatśarāṇāṁ ( SB 1.1.2). This very word is used in the beginning that, "This bhāgavata-dharma is meant for persons who is not jealous." Otherwise the material whole world is full of jealousy. Even during the time of Kṛṣṇa there was Paundra, out of jealousy. And there were so many. Beginning from Kṛṣṇa's birth the asuras , they were jealous: "How to kill Kṛṣṇa." This is the whole mat . . . even in the higher planetary system the jealousy is there, asuras and the devas , devāsura . So our business is, as instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā . This jealousy will go on. Therefore one has to learn how to tolerate jealousy. Kīrtaniyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). If one wants to push on this saṅkīrtana movement . . . Prabhupāda . . . we are insignificant creature. So many persons. You cannot avoid it. The best way is to learn how to tolerate. That is very nice. Otherwise Caitanya Mahāprabhu not have said taror api sahiṣṇunā . That is the best. So we are not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, neither like Prabhupāda, and we shall have to learn to tolerate. Kintu dekhen Prabhupader samay kato biruddhe . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (But see during the time of Prabhupāda (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur) many anti . . .) Er yodi biradhita korte pare . . . (If they can protest him . . .) Hobei . . . (This will happen . . .) Ta amar biruddhe korbe ei ar . . . eto kichui na. (This is not a big thing if they also protest me . . .) *(indistinct) . . . yara prabhur seva korchen, tader biruddhe hobei. Ora negative contain . . . ba ekta apnar anti party na thakle . . . anya keu na thakle alocana seta . . . (indistinct) . . . tara bujhbe . . . (those who are serving the Lord, people will be against them. They will find out negative content . . . or if there won't, it will be an anti*-party . . . if there won't be different people, then how will that be discussed . . . (indistinct) . . . they will understand . . .) *Prabhupāda Na, bujhuk na bujhuk, ami ye*-sob ya kaj korte beriyechi, keu bujhbe na bujhbe, yay na kono . . . ami . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (No, they understand or not, I went out to do that work, whether they understand or not . . . I . . .) Tobe amar mone hoy, onekei bujhechilen, yara bujhchen na ekhon tara svikar korchen na. Tao tara dukhche, eta amader anander bisay. (But I think many people have understood, who they have understood, they are not admitting. But still they are joining the movement. This is our happiness.) *It is clearly written in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta that kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nāhe kṛṣṇa nāma pracāraṇa (CC Antya 7.11). So even they have no common sense, what can be done? Eta svikar korte hobe, Krsna sakti . . . (We have to admit, that is the strength of Kṛṣṇa . . .) *No, no, this formula, that this is something new in the history of the world, and still they are jealous, what is this? They are finding fault. In Vṛndāvana, Nṛsiṁha*-vallabha Gosvāmī, you know? He comes to me. He says: "So many people are jealous upon you." I say that, "First of all you create something like me, then you become jealous." Seta khamata nei. (They don't have that quality.) Ami asha kori Maharaj, khub alpo diner madhye sob dekhben apnar anugami hobe. Ami serakam kichu . . . (Mahārāja, I hope they will start following you soon. I have seen something like . . .) *Sei janye ami cup*-cap thaki . . . (That's why I remain silent . . .) Ager theke onek sob paribartan hoyeche. Ami ebong khub bhalo bhabei ei katha bolechi ye, ekhon to Maharajer . . . (Many things have changed from before. Simply I told them that, now Mahārāja is . . .) Na, se karuk na karuk, amar . . . eto yai hok, ami nije nijei, ascarya hoye yai . . . na ami to kono jealousy mone kori na . . . (No, they take it or not, I . . . whatever, sometimes I get astonished myself . . .) Tate Prabhupād . . . apnar gurudev santusta hoben. (Then Prabhupāda . . . your Gurudeva will be happy.) Tabe tara ye dictate kore oita amar . . . tara dictate korbe keno? (But they dictate to me, that's I . . . why do they dictate?) First of all let them become like me. Then . . . Samane, samane bandhutta hobe. Ye baro se dictate korbe, ar ye choto se manyata korbe eta hocche niom. Se samanatao nei, ar unnatao nei tahole dictate kore keno? Ami ki korechi ta diye oder kaj ki? (Equal people will make friends. Seniors will dictate and the junior will obey, this is the rule. But they are not equal to me and they are not superior to me then why do they dictate me?) Seta ami bujhte perechi. (I understand that.) Tahole dictate korte yay keno? Eita tader murkhata. Dictate korbe ke? Ye baro. (So why do they come to dictate? This is their foolishness. Who will dictate? Who is superior?) The superior, he will dictate. And yes, equal, they will live like friends. And those who are junior, they should follow and obey. This is the Vaiṣṇava niyama . So those who are neither equal nor higher, how they can dictate? That is their mistake. Either first of all become higher than him—then you dictate—or you be equal with him—then you suggest. You are lower and you want to dictate? What is this nonsense? Bujhte perechen? Eta hocche niyam. Niyamtai jane na. (Do you understand? This is the rule. They even don't know the rules.) By standard, one who is lower, they want to dictate. Ekhane emon abasta, apni to bollen ye, Prabhupad ke ami to apnar ei darshan . . . (indistinct) . . . tarpar amra amader baktabya rakhchi apnar sammandhye, yara buddhi jibi . . . (Here the situation is, you say this, "I have seen Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . after that we have to present a speech on you," those who are intelligent . . .) (loud conchshell) Bās . (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Radharaman M.L.A . . . Radharaman, amader ei Nabadwip . . . (indistinct) . . . royeche, ami congress office bollam, apni asben Jayapataka Maharajke niye gelam okhane . . . (indistinct) . . . apnader bollam ye apni milita hoben ISKCON hacche Prabhupāder . . . (indistinct) . . . ese bollo ye hya ami yabo, kintu kichu lok apatti korlo ye photo rakhte parbe na . . . kintu er madhye . . . apnara . . . Maharaj tomakei pasanda kore na Jayapataka Maharaj, oi apnar Radharaman, ora apatti korlo ye photo kora yabe na. Kintu amar iccha ye dujane ek jaygay ekta photor madhye thaklam. Yai hok se kadin yebe ananda . . . Radharaman ke bollam ye, bhai tumi amake ektu kol dao, yara namer janya sarvasya bhog, bilas tyag kore yader bhoger madhyei janma ebong ei katha yini biswas koraichen yini pascatya jagate e baro sangatik byapar, eta ekta . . . (indistinct) . . . ekhane kichu janbar ba amader bojhbar ache. Ami sir ke niye gelam aslen na. (Radharaman M.L.A . . . Radharaman, in our Nabadwip . . . (indistinct) . . . have, I will go with Jayapataka Mahārāja to the congress office and told them that you will come . . . (indistinct) . . . I told them to join ISKCON, this is Prabhupāda's . . . (indistinct) . . . he told me that, "Yes I will go," but some people refused us to take a photo . . . but meanwhile . . . you . . . that Radharaman doesn't like Jayapataka Mahārāja, that's why they have an objection that a photo can't be taken. But my wish is if we both are together in a single photo. Then I can feel happy someday . . . I told Radharaman to give a place for those who have left everything for this holy name, their sense gratification and all, actually they were born in sense gratification and the person makes them believe in that. That is a very big thing . . . (indistinct) . . . we have many things to know from him. I thought to bring him here but he didn't come.) (break) *They may be very big visioner. . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . tarpar yakhan baire ase, ya icche kor, ya icche kor, ya icche kor. Gala ta jariye dhore. Thik sei rakam. Eikhane te bose bhoger borai korle ki hobe? Ar ye Caitanya Mahaprabhu katha ta pracar karo jagate. (after that when they come outside, they do whatever they can. By hugging them. Just like that. Is this okay to feel proud from here? Frost, you have to preach the massage of Caitanya Mahāprabhu,) Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). Eisob asche sob prthivi theke. (They are coming from all over the world.) A pakkā Vaiṣṇava like you, to find out faults, what is this? Rādhārāṇī is . . . kache loke approach kore eita tar gun hocche ye, Rādhārāṇīr kache keu yodi approach . . . Rādhārāṇīr ekta . . . ki bolen? Rādhārāṇī kache approach kore keno loke? Jaya Radhe! Rādhārāṇī ekbar ektu recommendation kore dey, kaj hoye yay. To tini sobi to demand korlen. Khub bhalo bhakta athaca dosh darshi. Radharani mone koren . . . tini janei na keu dosh korte pare. (People approach Rādhārāṇī because she has a special quality, that if someone approaches Rādhārāṇī . . . Rādhārāṇī is . . . what do you say about this? Why do people approach Rādhārāṇī? They say "Jaya Radhe!", because if Rādhārāṇī gives a recommendation once, then the work will be done very easily. So he has demanded everything. He is a good devotee as well as fault seeker. Rādhārāṇī doesn't think that people have any mistakes.) They have not united, they have disunited. And here, practically you see all religions, all nations, all persons, all philosophy. Everything is there. Era ye sob America theke eseche, eder ke ki kichu ghush diye ana hoyeche? (They all came here from America, were they brought in with a bribe?) They have come with their life . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . nicche (taking.) Or yodi bola hoy . . . (indistinct) . . . ei ghush diye deoa hobe . . . (If we told them . . . (indistinct) . . . will give a bribe . . .) Ederke bole CIA! (They are called CIA.) Ei holo eder gun. (These are the qualities of them.) CIA! Bhakta hoye ar ca paryanta bidi paryanta chere diye, eikhane nece tara . . . (indistinct) . . . lagiye dicche. (They have left tea, bīḍī and everything after becoming a bhakta and they are dancing . . . (indistinct) . . . they are giving.) You know less common sense they have. They haven't got even common sense. Ami apnar sambaraner byabasta kori Krsnanagare, er age kichu lok mane . . . ora to ekta biradhita korbe . . . (I arranged something to welcome you in Krishnanagar, before that, some people means . . . those who will protest . . .) (break) . . . on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, so all the money should be given to us. The money actually belongs to Kṛṣṇa. You, by tricks, you are holding it. (knock) Yes? Asun, asun. Bhalo acho? (Please come in. How are you?) Bhalo achi. (I am fine.) Open this. Open. Apnar anumati anusare ami government . . . (According to your permission the government . . .) (break) (end) Conversation -- January 19, 1976, Mayapur The stricture of nature's law, that is science. Is it not? Scientific effort. They will never be able to do so, but still, they are . . . to stop death, birth, death, old age, is very major problem, but even in small things you cannot do anything. Everywhere you are dependent. And still, they are very much proud that they are advancing in scientific knowledge so that they can overcome the stringent laws of nature and so on, so on. Durāśaya . It is called durāśaya , hope which will never be fulfilled. Is it not? Durāśaya. Śāstra, Bhāgavata , says, durāśaya . This is their foolishness. They are expecting something which will never be fulfilled. Therefore śāstra says durāśaya . Now what they are doing about the moon planet? They've forgotten about it. Now they're trying for Mars. Just see. Hele dāntavān keuṭe. A man was trying to capture snake. So there are snakes, hele . There are many snakes; they have no poison, especially the water snake, the hele . So hele dāntavān keuṭe . Keuṭe means cobra. So one cannot capture the poisonless snake, and he is attempting to capture cobra. So they could not go to the moon planet, which is only 1,600,000 miles above the sun, and they are going to Venus, which is far, far away, still. How many miles the Venus is situated? They have committed some mistake. Yes. Well, they say here it's 600,000 yojanas , which makes 48,000,000 miles—no—480,000,000 miles above the sun. So they cannot reach sun . . . they are trying to go above the sun. (someone enters) Asun. Basun. (Please come. Sit down.) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Basun. Kothyeke elen? (Sit down. Where are you from?) Ami . . . ei (I am . . . this) . . . (indistinct) (break) It is giving a quotation from the *Vedas*. How to act on Vedic principles, that is called smṛti . Sometimes the original law is explained by one lawyer in detail. So that detailed explanation is like smṛti , and the original law is śruti . In that we have to bathe. Smṛti means which is explaining śruti to understand easily. But we should never think that smṛti is an interpretation. No, no. It is not inter . . . it is explanation. Just like sometimes the smārtas , they argue that if you quote smṛti , it is not as good as śruti . Yes. But smṛti . . . just like the Māyāvādīs. They do not accept, because their interpretation of Veda is different. Right. So they say that smṛti is an interpretation. Ah, yes. *They don't accept Bhagavad*-gītā , many of them. No. So what is our answer to such persons? We have got our own ācāryas . If you don't accept, I don't accept you. That is my . . . what can be done? Madhvācārya made a commentary on the *Gītā* where he quoted a Sanskrit verse. Huh? *He quoted a Vedic verse for every Bhagavad*-gītā verse to prove that Bhagavad-gītā is śruti . Madhvācārya? Or somebody like that. Rāmānujācārya. Who? Rāmānujācārya has quoted. Rāmānujācārya. *Rāmānujācārya has given quotation from śruti for every verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . (pause) (devotee enters and offers obeisances) So read from the . . . It starts off with big print: "Ācāryadeva Tridandi Swami Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Mahārāja. All learned men are aware that in the dark days of India when the Hindu religion was in great danger . . ." (laughs) This is nonsense. *". . . our Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was born at Śrī Māyāpur, destined to remove the dark clouds which had overshadowed true religious thinking by traveling alone on foot throughout the length and breadth of India. Preaching His gospel of love, He brought about a religious upheaval which put an end to all religious conflicts and suicidal vociferous tendencies. The benign influence of His love philosophy made the whole of India a spiritually united cultural domain. Soul*-enrapturing kīrtana music was organized from one end of the country to the other. A neo-humanism based on love regarded as the highest objective of human existence held sway. The difference between man and man was forgotten, and the fundamental unity of human nature and human destiny was stressed upon. But in the early nineteenth century, true religion was at a very low ebb due to lack of proper publicity of literature and also for want of great ācāryas to propagate the cults in their true aspect. It was a dark period for the Caitanya or Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism when it fell from its highest transcendentalism to the lowest possible degradation because of so many abuses and evil practices which crept into it through plenty of pseudo-followers. Vaiṣṇavism was almost abandoned by the educated section of people. Its literature was hardly read. Kīrtana was looked upon not as a form of prayer but as a means of gratification by people of loose morals. Most of the Vaiṣṇava followers of the period lost their high standard of morality, their loving aestheticism, their intellectual superiority and devotional fervor, which were the main characteristics of the previous masters. The influx of Western ideas came in, and English educated people fell into the hands of Christians. Fortunately, at that time, we got a great Vaiṣṇava savant and scholar, Ṭhākura Kedāranātha Bhaktivinoda, who wrote widely and successfully created an interest among the educated public in Vaiṣṇava religion and literature. His discovery of Śrīdhāma Māyāpur, the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, which was so long hidden from the public eye, gave a new impetus to its propagation. The age of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism set in. Thereafter, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Ṭhākura took hold of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism with a vow to propagate it in its true perspective, even as it was practiced with unparalleled and unprecedented transcendentalism by Śrī Rūpa and Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmīs, followers of Śrī Caitanya. In proper time, he got a great personality who readily shouldered the . . ." Just see now: "He got a great personality." He is that personality. He'll also prove that. ". . . who shouldered the burden of the mighty mission of Śrīla Sarasvatī Ṭhākura. That great personality is President Ācāryadeva, His Holiness Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktivilāsa . . ." But you . . . jaya morena apne morol . This great personality, why he is not accepted by other disciples? How he becames a great personality? Yes. If one proclaims himself to be the king and no one . . . No one accepts him. What kind of king? That is called in Bengali, jaya mane apna morol. Morol means the leader of the society, of the village. Here there are morol . So in the village nobody cares for him, and he declares that, "I am morol ." That person is insane. Nobody cares for him, and he is thinking that, "Great personality." Where is his greatness? Who knows him? Just see. So he is making a plan to declare himself a great personality. It goes on to explain why he is such a great personality. So why explain? If he is great personality, everyone should know. Why he is trying to explain? What is the use of explanation? If a great personality is unknown, and he has to be known by explanatory notes, then how he is great personality? Just like the President of the United States. He doesn't have to say, "I am the President." Everyone knows. Yes. Go on reading. ". . . Tīrtha Mahārāja, who was then known as guru - preṣṭha , "Most dear to his guru ," and also known to the disciples of Śrīla Sarasvatī Ṭhākura as Kuñjada, giver of shelter. In all the missionary works and the management of the maṭhas , Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja was the right hand of his Gurudeva. By his constant, unstinted service rendered to Śrīla Prabhupāda, whose most intimate disciple he was, he almost became a counterpart of that great saint." Oh. This is not . . . "Counterpart." Jumping. Trying to equal . . . So those who are not accepting him, so they are all fools. This is very bad, Prabhupāda. It says he wanted to be . . . he almost became counterpart. That means he is trying to become equal or superior to guru . Superior. In this first sentence, superior; that Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, his whole mission was dependent upon this great personality, Tīrtha Mahārāja. Not that Bhaktisiddhānta was a great personality, but that the great personality is Tīrtha Mahārāja. He has written like that? He said: "In proper time he got a great personality who readily shouldered the burden of the mighty mission of Sarasvatī Ṭhākura." That's implying that he is the one responsible. He says . . . his impression is like that. Then? "In all preaching work, everybody felt the sober but encouraging hand of Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja. Śrīla Prabhupāda never did anything without consulting him first or without his consent. So all the desires for future work of Prabhupāda Śrīla Sarasvatī . . ." He does not mention his name. He says . . . all right, go . . . his sannyāsī name is . . . all right. Then? *"All the desires for future work of Śrīla Prabhupāda Sarasvatī Ṭhākura used to come to the present ācāryadeva as an impulse first, which he translated into action at once. In spite of a hundred hindrances from so*-called religionists with a vision of a future worldwide mission, Śrīla Prabhupāda established Śrī Caitanya Maṭha at Śrī Māyāpur, the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, on the Phālguna Pūrṇimā day, the seventh March, 1918, which was a red-letter day in the history of theistic religious revival in this age. He started a countrywide movement to carry the message of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to every door. In a hectic manner, within a couple of years, he preached Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism throughout India and sent disciples to England, Germany, and other parts of Europe and Burma to preach the message of Śrī Caitanya and establish sixty-four branches under the name of Śrī Gauḍīya Maṭha throughout India and abroad, and a vast literature flowed through his versatile pen. The large number of publications in different languages and the vigorous missionary activities and door-to-door preaching by the sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs of the Maṭha, who held meetings in the remotest villages, duly spread Śrī Caitanya's teachings, which today are followed in every part of India. His songs are sung in chorus, and a great interest is created among the intelligentsia of India. After having become the president of the institution . . ." In this last paragraph, all of these activities of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, there is no mention of his name. His whole mission, there is actually no mention of his name, that he is the one who has done it. "After having become the president of the institution, Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja has been traveling throughout India and Pakistan preaching the devotional cult of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and he has come in contact with many savants of present India who are all struck with reverent admiration for his deep knowledge of philosophy. Dr. Rādhākamal Mukherjee, vice- chancellor of Lucknow University, remarks, 'There is no more distinguished and erudite interpreter of Śrī Caitanya's Vaiṣṇava thought than His Holiness Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja.' " And what is Rādhākamal Mukherjee? *" 'He has been a prolific writer and commentator and has traveled and discoursed widely in different parts of India. His profound illuminative discourses have everywhere created a genuine interest in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and in the dynamic religious movement he represents.' There may not be any doubt among the well*-informed people that the Śrī Caitanya Maṭha, with its branches, Śrī Gauḍīya Maṭhas, throughout India and abroad, have been propagating the greatest religion, which, from a realistic point of view, has helped to build up a true civilization. Today, due to the activities of Śrī Caitanya Maṭha, a spiritual thirst has been created, especially among the deep-thinking and educated people of the world, for people from all over the world are coming to this institution to learn and follow the great religion of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and to understand the practical Indian way of life. Today the headquarter extends over a mile, with beautiful temples, yet standing in an atmosphere of absorbing silence of meditation and worship, surrounded on all sides by emerald green paddy fields and the Ganges flowing hard by, far from the madding crowd's strife and strain. Māyāpur is now an enchanted place, the abode of peace. The atmosphere of the place is charming. The chanting of the holy name of Hari all day and night takes one to a celestial place." We don't hear the chanting from their maṭha all day and night. No, it's only from here. "It is more heavenly than heaven itself. It is the sacred Vṛndāvana of Bengal, hallowed by the dancing steps of the Lord, and its air is purified by His noble call to prayer. Whoever pays a visit to her will leave her with regret, and those who have not yet visited the place will carry their regrets unto death." So he is making some propaganda that he is the . . . Yes, just like in the woods the jackal is always crying that he is the king, but who cares for him? What is his qualification? So do we require to . . .? There is no use. No, our answer is all of these books. That's all. *Our answer is twenty*-four-hour kīrtana, prasādam distribution . . . And you keep it very carefully in the file. We should answer him by our preaching, by our vigorous preaching. Many people must be asking him, "What about this ISKCON maṭha ?" That's why he is . . . it's driving him mad. He's speaking against us all the time. He never says anything good about us. No, he is very envious about us. But I think now he must have come to the conclusion that there is no way to stop us, so he is thinking how he can . . . I have a hunch he is thinking how he can become connected in some way to get some benefit. That's why he is sending this man, this maṭha commander. Because he sees now there is no way he can stop us, so he is thinking, "How can I connect somehow with them? Because they have so much money, and they're going to be doing so many big things, I must establish a connection with them." So he wants to establish connection with us and . . . Yes, I think so. . . . and describe that he has . . . just like Mādhava Mahārāja also attempted. This is the attempt. So, what we have to do in this connection? Let them do whatever nonsense they want. We shall do our own business. And we have no business to propagate that we are making . . . people already know us all over the world. So . . . but suppose if he makes an attempt to mix with us so that he can take advantage, his main policy is that we may go there. That is his . . . because if we do not go, then all their propaganda makes him not very important if we go there . . . if we do not go there. Why does he depend upon our going there to become important? Because he is visualizing that by our propaganda throughout the whole world, people will come here. That he has already seen. And if we do not go there, then he becomes insignificant. "If we don't" means if anyone from all over the world who comes . . . Yes, naturally. People are attracted by the Westerners coming to the maṭha . So if we're up at that maṭha , any of us, and then they say: "Just see." They say in Bengali, "Just see. They are coming. To see our Guru Mahārāja, they are coming." That was the policy of Mādhava Mahārāja and Śrīdhara Mahārāja that, "Although Bhaktivedanta Swami is propagating throughout, he is subordinate to us, under our instruction." So all these three . . . A real dream world they are living in. Here they have even included our temple in their domain. "The headquarters extends for over a mile, with beautiful temples and paddy fields." When we put up our wall, then they will not be able to include us. (laughter) So what we should . . . the point is that no matter how much they press for any kind of mixing, our first point is, "You come here and visit us." And he'll never do that. Never do that. And we should not . . . we already invited him twice, so we don't have to give any more invitation. We should simply say verbally, "Let Tīrtha Mahārāja come here, as we have come so many times. Then we can speak about some kind of cooperation." Yes. I remember, Śrīla . . . you walked there. Yes. From here you walked all the way . . . Twice Prabhupāda has visited and personally requested, and he won't come here. And now . . . the thing is, now he might say: "If you give it to me in writing, I will come," but we'll say: "We have already personally come. Our spiritual master has come twice personally, and now you have to simply come. The invitation is already given. Now Tīrtha Mahārāja should come here." He'll never do that. He'll never come. Right. So then that way we don't have to cooperate. So this paper you keep, because these rascals, they may create some trouble. What kind of trouble? Trouble like this, just like he was detained. What was that? When I had that . . . They can file some complaint inducing something. Śrīla Prabhupāda, it was very interesting. Last night that complaint . . . my lawyer was this man who was sitting right here last night, this old man, Nandulal? He was my lawyer. Ācchā . And he is the one who asked me, "Who is behind this case?" He asked me when we brought him from Krishnanagar. Because he is considered the best lawyer in Nadia, so we brought him in, and as we were leaving, after the first time I appeared, he said, "There is someone . . . this man is a farmer, laborer. Who has put him up to this?" He said, "There is someone behind this." So he asked me, "Was it Śrīdhara? Someone of the Gauḍīya Maṭha is behind this." But he came last night with them, this lawyer, old man. He came with them. So they were definitely the ones behind it. Hmm? They were definitely the ones behind that case. They somehow got their hands on that man and had him bring charges, even though the whole thing was dropped, you know. Who was behind them? Well, this man, he mentioned Śrīdhara Mahārāja's name. He said: "Some Gauḍīya Maṭha person." He's a very good lawyer. Yes. He's retired, but he's the most respected lawyer in Nadia. So he mentioned. So he was in our side. Yes. So he had mentioned, "Someone from the Gauḍīya Maṭha." He said: "You have many enemies." He said: "This man would not have thought of this kind of thing, to do this kind of thing. Someone had to . . ." Who? When I had to go to court to appear for having kidnapped that woman and her son, that I was holding the woman and her son by force—the husband placed charges—so this lawyer said, "That . . . he was a simple man, a little crazy. He wouldn't have done it or had the money to do it. Someone with some more intelligence, higher intelligence, is behind him, goading him on, telling him what to do." He asked who did I think it was? He mentioned Gauḍīya Maṭha, and he asked for any . . . did I know any particular personalities. I said: "No." He said: "What about Śrīdhara Swami?" I said I didn't know who it was. Someone. So if Śrīdhara Swami was behind . . . maybe. There is no . . . The point is that they can make so much trouble like that. Small troubles. *Yes, little harassment. Then I even . . . of course, I don't know. I even question . . . just like that Lalita Bose, that whole incident which Jayapatākā told you about. Who knows? She is so influenced by . . . she is big, so*-called Vaiṣṇava, and known in so many circles in Bengal. Who is influencing her? You know? Anyway, we simply stay on our land and develop our program. He is going mad. Hmm? He is becoming mad. Who? Tīrtha Mahārāja. (laughs) How? Well, the more he hears. Because he gets so many reports. So many people are coming here, and no one is going there. Even . . . His mentality is becoming like Kaṁsa, I think. At every moment he is thinking, "This Prabhupāda, Prabhupāda . . ." So who . . .? Somebody inquired him that "What is this called? So many people are coming." Huh? Yes. He knows no one is coming there. Not very many more people are coming there than are here. Because most of the people come here . . . That they are realizing that, "We are becoming insignificant gradually." That they are realizing. No one goes to Mādhava Mahārāja's maṭha at all. The only maṭha that they still visit is that Śrī Caitanya Maṭha. And they have no money, so that place is becoming so dilapidated that no one is going there either. And there's no life there. There's no young people. There are no . . . No, how they can? They cannot feed them. We were speaking this morning, Bhavānanda Mahārāja and myself, that we were wondering if we could make like . . . you know, like so many people come here to eat prasādam . On the weekends, at least two to three thousand people come. So we were wondering whether it would be proper to make some kind of propaganda that, "If anyone wants to enroll their children here, their young boys in our gurukula , that they can . . ." So a similar counterpart leaflet you should that, "International Society for Krishna Consciousness, world organization, established by His Divine Grace, and anyone can come here and take foodstuff. We have got arrangement," like this. In suitable words you write and issue another pamphlet. Bengali. In Bengali and in English. Which may not touch there, but we write in our own way, that, "By the order of his guru he went to America. Then he . . ." That's a fact. What is the fact, that should be written. Give the list of the books and so on, so on. List of the temples. *Yes, temples. And "He is the ācārya of the present Gauḍīya*-sampradāya." If we simply state the facts, there is no need for us to subtly infer or to exaggerate, because your activities are so glorious that . . . And invite anyone who is interested to become devotee. We shall provide place, food, education to the children. In this way make another statement. I'm just wondering . . . I was thinking that whether we . . . Without touching them. Yes. This is . . . of course, we'll do this also. What about, like, all of these people coming? This is my point, that so many poor people are coming here. Practically they don't even have enough money to take care of their children properly. So whether we can make some verbal announcements, and whether we can set up a little table at the prasādam pavilion that, "Anyone who would like to enroll their sons in our school can do so"? Because many of these people can't take care of their children properly. I'm thinking when they see our boys they may want to give their sons. Yes, they will give. Is that a good program? Hmm. We can get many . . . I think we could get many, many men that way. The children, they are enjoying. In the morning they are enjoying. That is wanted. Yes, they're in ecstasy. All day they enjoy. When they are sweeping the road, they don't know that there's difference between work and play. No, no. To them, sweeping the road is their play. They love it. These children are much more hard working than the children in America. Like these few American boys that are here, they cannot compare with these Bengali boys. No. Their service attitude is much, much better. I think we should . . . By association they will be also. Yes, they have also improved. Jagaman has. Jagaman is wonderful. He works very hard. So I think we should try to get as many of these young boys as we can. We should use the facility of this prasādam distribution. The thing is that whether we should . . . this pamphlet, I don't think it has got any value. *It has no value, Prabhupāda. What we should do is build this temple. If we just build this temple . . . this is my point. Let us build this temple immediately. Once this temple is built, everything is finished. All the glowworms are completely extinguished. There will be nothing left. They can do anything they want, and nothing will matter. If they have a 350*-story building . . . 350-foot building with escalators, with huge compounds, then everything is ended. So do like that, like America. *He can come here and stand outside and scream, "I am the ācārya*-deva ." Just like in America so many people are saying: "I am Napoleon." No one . . . That everyone says. That is not . . . We have to build this temple, because . . . So make something like American which is wonderful for the world. So you are Americans. You must do something. If we build this temple with escalators and the people go in the temple and they go up the escalator . . . They'll never come back. . . . do you think that they're going to then go down the road to go into Śrī Caitanya Maṭha? Why would . . . what is the point of it after doing something like that? They'll never go. And if you can arrange some . . . what is called, that? This heliocopter. Helicopter. Bringing our men from Dum Dum airport to our roof. Yes. There are at least four roofs like this. Right. The people will see. All the pilgrims will see. Like the demigods flying in. At least we can make a show—it is coming twice in a day and going twice in a day. And they will see that, "Oh, so many people are coming." *So you have to . . . the thing is, we're simply waiting for your go*-ahead, because unless we get the land and we can begin, we can't start this. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has sent him. Let him come. Yes. We shouldn't delay. If we . . . this is a little pamphlet. If we issue a counter pamphlet, it's not . . . I don't think it's such an important thing. The thing to do is to do something . . . Yes, practical. . . . so significant that this becomes useless. Not that we issue another thing of this nature. This is already useless. Yes. I mean, what is the use of issuing another piece of paper against this paper? Let us make a skyscraper temple; then they can think what will be the comparison between this . . . On every level. Even the people this invitation was issued to. But they come, and when they come on Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura's appearance day, they all come down the road to here to visit. Really. Even he gives off so much energy inviting this one and that one, they all come. They all want to come down the road. They at least come down for darśana here. They do? Yes, they have to. They've all been here. They all know it. They come with different personalities, different friends . . . in Krishnanagar, we are like the cinema in terms of entertainment. As soon as any man, any official, government official, his friends come from Calcutta, immediately they get in one of their government jeeps and they drive out here and come to see the ISKCON Maṭha, Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir. Immediately. So many men, they come all the time with their friends from Calcutta. Same thing in Navadvīpa. They come for an evening's . . . Yes. Fully satisfied. The woman puts on her sārī , the man dresses up in his kurtā . . . So our arrangement should be to give them some prasadam , very nice treatment. We've got to do this. We've got to do this. And if important man should write something in the visitor's book . . . reception. There should be a reception, proper receptionist. So where the reception? Will sit? We'll make some arrangement. Make it immediately. Reception. That Nitāicānda is really first class. Huh? Nitāicānda is very good. Nitāicānda plus somebody very educated should be there. What about that . . . who do we have like that that speaks Bengali? Subhaga. Oh, they love Subhaga. He preaches in the temple at the book table during the busy hours. So many people buy books, and all interested. He's very . . . Subhaga. Subhaga make the chief of the reception. And Nitāicānda his assistant, and another, a foreigner. Nitāicānda is in charge of the building. He has so much to do anyway, Nitāicānda. Subhaga is best. Subhaga and two foreigners. As assistants. Hmm. Make that arrangement. He is very good boy. Yes, he is really good. And he has understood the philosophy. He has got ten years' experience of London. Yes. I met him in the London airport, and I told him, "Why don't you come to India?" 'Cause I saw him. I thought he'd be really helpful here. So, Prabhupāda, another thing, is there any need to increase our prasādam distribution? Like right now about a thousand people come. No, what . . . they are coming, but if you see that more are coming, then increase. There is no question of advertising. There isn't. We shouldn't advertise. *Rather, you make some arrangement that there will be prasādam *-selling there, and anyone comes within the temple, give him something. Just like I give here. Well, we don't do that at all. We do. Everyone who comes in the temple, they get that miṣṭi baḍā . Everyone? Everyone. Miṣṭi baḍā ? Miṣṭi baḍā we give, gūr and peanut with little coconut in it and masalā . Oh, we're famous now in the whole area. Even Jayapatākā was seeing one government official in Krishnanagar, and he said: "Did you bring me any of that baḍā ?" They all want. Anyway, something must be given. Yes, if we get a good cook like Shantilal and he can cook hundreds of singāra or kacaurī and we can sell, and then the next room have one men who serves them prasādam , everyone will come to take prasādam . Keep nice water, sitting place. They will take. What kind of sitting place? On the floor with mats, or benches and tables? Benches, table will be nice. Better. Like in a South Indian house. The South Indian restaurants, they have those . . . of course, those are fancy, like in Vṛndāvana. In the South Indian restaurant they always have a table with marble top. Then they put a leaf on it. Very nice. There is room down there. That big room can be used as like a restaurant. Where? The next floor down on the end, where they sometimes have class. No, Prabhupāda wants it up there where they sell the prasādam . They will buy in some leaf cup and then go next door and have a place to sit down and take it, and then water to wash their . . . actually, there's a pump. Everything is right there. You will find such confectioner's shop, sitting place and eating. Yes. Like that. Just like in Navadvīpa. They have that near the Gopīnātha temple in Vṛndāvana. Everybody goes there. That is very big. We should make a nice sweet, sweetmeats also. Lugloos is big there. Those lugloos . *We should make many types of sweetmeats. There should be so many preparations, all offered to the Deity. People can purchase mahā*-prasādam. Oh, it will be very big. When you read in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, every time Caitanya Mahāprabhu's devotees are purchasing prasādam from Jagannātha temple, all the time. Yes, that is the system. It sounds like they make a huge quantity at Purī, huge quantities of foodstuffs. Oh, yes. Any time you can get one thousand man's eatables. Any time? But we only offer one little plate at ārati . No, that you can increase as the demand is increased. There is such a demand in Purī? Yes. Everyone goes. They do not cook. He purchases prasādam and eat. Everyone. It's so famous. Yes, whenever someone visits there they always bring back prasādam from Jagannātha. *It is . . . fifty*-six time, prasādam is offered there. Fifty-six time. It's constant. Huh? It's constantly being offered, all day long. *Yes. Once offered, ārati is performed. Then it is taken away, washed, the room. Again half an hour after . . . why half an hour? Fifteen minutes after. Throughout the whole day and night, fifty*-six times. Night also. *Night . . . not night. But up to late night. So fifty*-six time, chāppānna , within twenty-four hours, so just imagine. Four or five times an hour. So we have to do that at this temple. Every fifteen minutes new set, prasādam . You need a whole lot of Shantilals to do that. And these ingredients are supplied by Jagannātha's own field. They grow it, and they . . . so there is no, I mean, difficulty. They grow and they sell. They get money so they can maintain the establishment. A long time. There are potters. Daily they will supply for each prasādam a new pot. It cannot be used again. So few people purchase with pot, original pot, and they have got a fixed price. This big pot, say, five rupees, this pot, two rupees; this pot, one rupee. So as you like, you can purchase. Very nice system. You went there sometimes to take prasādam ? *Yes, I became a guest. A gentleman was our tenant, and he gave me introduction letter to his brother*-in-law. He was a pleader in Jagannātha Purī. So he received me very well. So he offered me lunch, and I saw there was something, a small ball-like, in the pot, bowl. So I asked: "What is this?" He said: "It is meat." (laughs) He was eating meat, so he thought it is good reception, the guest is offered nice meat. So I said, "No, you . . . what is? I never took meat. I never expected; this is Jagannātha . . ." So then he became very much ashamed. He said: "I did not know. I thought this is the best . . ." Then, "Never mind." Then I stopped eating there. At that time I was a boy. After appearing in my B.A. examination there was holiday, so I went to Jagannātha Purī in 1920 or something like that. So I was married in 1918. So some of the friends of my wife, they said that, "Your husband now gone. He is not coming back." So after returning I understood she was crying. (laughs) So anyway, then I used to purchase prasādam in the market. They were bringing, and I was eating. I stayed for three, four days, that's all. You said that when you were very young you always used to calculate what was the cost of a ticket to Purī. Yes. Every day I was seeing how to go to Jagannātha Purī and how to go to Vṛndāvana. At that time a fare was, for Vṛndāvana, four or five rupees, and similarly for Jagannātha Purī. So I was thinking, "When I shall go?" That's all. I took first opportunity to go to Jagannātha Purī after my examination, and in business connection when I went to Agra, then I first of all took the opportunity to go to Vṛndāvana from Agra. This was in 1925, and I visited Jagannātha Purī sometime in 1920. And '25 I went to Vṛndāvana. I remember, in those days I was sitting within the car, and there was some prasādam . One monkey entered and took away everything. In the train compartment. Hmm. They are very clever. Many times in Vṛndāvana the monkeys have taken away from my hand foodstuff. While you were eating. Hmm. Thrice . . . at least thrice, four times I remember. You wanted them to take it? You were offering . . . No, suppose a big monkey comes and takes. You are stumped. (laughter) You have to give him. No other way. They will attack otherwise. *In Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple I was cooking, the other room. So although the door was closed, he knew. He opened the door and took away. Sometimes they would take away the . . . (door opens) Come on. The, what is called, dough? For . . .? Cāpāṭis ? Cāpāṭi . So they will eat that. Raw dough. You gave him some book, this Surendra? That was a long time ago I gave one book. Since then you told me not . . . you wrote that don't give any books, but that was a long time ago I gave. That's all right. So you have talked and dealt with him? He came to me and said he wanted a job here. He said he wanted to be our manager, this and that. And then he was hinting about that they were getting one wage, one allowance, so he was expecting to get some allowance also, a little more. So he is coming now. What is the purpose? He wanted to be our . . . to work for us. To work for Your Divine Grace, maybe. How did you find him by dealing with him? I didn't find him. He found me. No, no, how you have . . .? How do you . . .? Oh, how did I find . . . how did . . .? Well, I know that influentially he is, in the district level, he is very influential. I mean to say that he has got very good relations with all the government people and all the local people. And whenever I go somewhere to invite them for any festival, any function, they would always speak highly of Surendra Das and that he had just about a week ago before, he had already invited them for the Caitanya Maṭha. So he is very active in that way, something which we don't have time or understanding to do, so many of us. He knows how to receive people and make them feel very nice and then show them around. He has got that . . . a nice personality like that, and he is very active in . . . So if we engage him, do you think we shall get some good service? I don't know the . . . I know that he is able to perform good service. As far as whether he'll . . . other people tell me that since he's been working for the Caitanya Maṭha . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- January 19, 1976, Mayapur The stricture of nature's law, that is science. Is it not? Scientific effort. They will never be able to do so, but still, they are . . . to stop death, birth, death, old age, is very major problem, but even in small things you cannot do anything. Everywhere you are dependent. And still, they are very much proud that they are advancing in scientific knowledge so that they can overcome the stringent laws of nature and so on, so on. Durāśaya . It is called durāśaya , hope which will never be fulfilled. Is it not? Durāśaya. Śāstra, Bhāgavata , says, durāśaya . This is their foolishness. They are expecting something which will never be fulfilled. Therefore śāstra says durāśaya . Now what they are doing about the moon planet? They've forgotten about it. Now they're trying for Mars. Just see. Hele dāntavān keuṭe. A man was trying to capture snake. So there are snakes, hele . There are many snakes; they have no poison, especially the water snake, the hele . So hele dāntavān keuṭe . Keuṭe means cobra. So one cannot capture the poisonless snake, and he is attempting to capture cobra. So they could not go to the moon planet, which is only 1,600,000 miles above the sun, and they are going to Venus, which is far, far away, still. How many miles the Venus is situated? They have committed some mistake. Yes. Well, they say here it's 600,000 yojanas , which makes 48,000,000 miles—no—480,000,000 miles above the sun. So they cannot reach sun . . . they are trying to go above the sun. (someone enters) Asun. Basun. (Please come. Sit down.) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Basun. Kothyeke elen? (Sit down. Where are you from?) Ami . . . ei (I am . . . this) . . . (indistinct) (break) It is giving a quotation from the *Vedas*. How to act on Vedic principles, that is called smṛti . Sometimes the original law is explained by one lawyer in detail. So that detailed explanation is like smṛti , and the original law is śruti . In that we have to bathe. Smṛti means which is explaining śruti to understand easily. But we should never think that smṛti is an interpretation. No, no. It is not inter . . . it is explanation. Just like sometimes the smārtas , they argue that if you quote smṛti , it is not as good as śruti . Yes. But smṛti . . . just like the Māyāvādīs. They do not accept, because their interpretation of Veda is different. Right. So they say that smṛti is an interpretation. Ah, yes. *They don't accept Bhagavad*-gītā , many of them. No. So what is our answer to such persons? We have got our own ācāryas . If you don't accept, I don't accept you. That is my . . . what can be done? Madhvācārya made a commentary on the *Gītā* where he quoted a Sanskrit verse. Huh? *He quoted a Vedic verse for every Bhagavad*-gītā verse to prove that Bhagavad-gītā is śruti . Madhvācārya? Or somebody like that. Rāmānujācārya. Who? Rāmānujācārya has quoted. Rāmānujācārya. *Rāmānujācārya has given quotation from śruti for every verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . (pause) (devotee enters and offers obeisances) So read from the . . . It starts off with big print: "Ācāryadeva Tridandi Swami Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Mahārāja. All learned men are aware that in the dark days of India when the Hindu religion was in great danger . . ." (laughs) This is nonsense. *". . . our Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was born at Śrī Māyāpur, destined to remove the dark clouds which had overshadowed true religious thinking by traveling alone on foot throughout the length and breadth of India. Preaching His gospel of love, He brought about a religious upheaval which put an end to all religious conflicts and suicidal vociferous tendencies. The benign influence of His love philosophy made the whole of India a spiritually united cultural domain. Soul*-enrapturing kīrtana music was organized from one end of the country to the other. A neo-humanism based on love regarded as the highest objective of human existence held sway. The difference between man and man was forgotten, and the fundamental unity of human nature and human destiny was stressed upon. But in the early nineteenth century, true religion was at a very low ebb due to lack of proper publicity of literature and also for want of great ācāryas to propagate the cults in their true aspect. It was a dark period for the Caitanya or Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism when it fell from its highest transcendentalism to the lowest possible degradation because of so many abuses and evil practices which crept into it through plenty of pseudo-followers. Vaiṣṇavism was almost abandoned by the educated section of people. Its literature was hardly read. Kīrtana was looked upon not as a form of prayer but as a means of gratification by people of loose morals. Most of the Vaiṣṇava followers of the period lost their high standard of morality, their loving aestheticism, their intellectual superiority and devotional fervor, which were the main characteristics of the previous masters. The influx of Western ideas came in, and English educated people fell into the hands of Christians. Fortunately, at that time, we got a great Vaiṣṇava savant and scholar, Ṭhākura Kedāranātha Bhaktivinoda, who wrote widely and successfully created an interest among the educated public in Vaiṣṇava religion and literature. His discovery of Śrīdhāma Māyāpur, the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, which was so long hidden from the public eye, gave a new impetus to its propagation. The age of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism set in. Thereafter, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Ṭhākura took hold of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism with a vow to propagate it in its true perspective, even as it was practiced with unparalleled and unprecedented transcendentalism by Śrī Rūpa and Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmīs, followers of Śrī Caitanya. In proper time, he got a great personality who readily shouldered the . . ." Just see now: "He got a great personality." He is that personality. He'll also prove that. ". . . who shouldered the burden of the mighty mission of Śrīla Sarasvatī Ṭhākura. That great personality is President Ācāryadeva, His Holiness Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktivilāsa . . ." But you . . . jaya morena apne morol . This great personality, why he is not accepted by other disciples? How he becames a great personality? Yes. If one proclaims himself to be the king and no one . . . No one accepts him. What kind of king? That is called in Bengali, jaya mane apna morol. Morol means the leader of the society, of the village. Here there are morol . So in the village nobody cares for him, and he declares that, "I am morol ." That person is insane. Nobody cares for him, and he is thinking that, "Great personality." Where is his greatness? Who knows him? Just see. So he is making a plan to declare himself a great personality. It goes on to explain why he is such a great personality. So why explain? If he is great personality, everyone should know. Why he is trying to explain? What is the use of explanation? If a great personality is unknown, and he has to be known by explanatory notes, then how he is great personality? Just like the President of the United States. He doesn't have to say, "I am the President." Everyone knows. Yes. Go on reading. ". . . Tīrtha Mahārāja, who was then known as guru - preṣṭha , "Most dear to his guru ," and also known to the disciples of Śrīla Sarasvatī Ṭhākura as Kuñjada, giver of shelter. In all the missionary works and the management of the maṭhas , Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja was the right hand of his Gurudeva. By his constant, unstinted service rendered to Śrīla Prabhupāda, whose most intimate disciple he was, he almost became a counterpart of that great saint." Oh. This is not . . . "Counterpart." Jumping. Trying to equal . . . So those who are not accepting him, so they are all fools. This is very bad, Prabhupāda. It says he wanted to be . . . he almost became counterpart. That means he is trying to become equal or superior to guru . Superior. In this first sentence, superior; that Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, his whole mission was dependent upon this great personality, Tīrtha Mahārāja. Not that Bhaktisiddhānta was a great personality, but that the great personality is Tīrtha Mahārāja. He has written like that? He said: "In proper time he got a great personality who readily shouldered the burden of the mighty mission of Sarasvatī Ṭhākura." That's implying that he is the one responsible. He says . . . his impression is like that. Then? "In all preaching work, everybody felt the sober but encouraging hand of Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja. Śrīla Prabhupāda never did anything without consulting him first or without his consent. So all the desires for future work of Prabhupāda Śrīla Sarasvatī . . ." He does not mention his name. He says . . . all right, go . . . his sannyāsī name is . . . all right. Then? *"All the desires for future work of Śrīla Prabhupāda Sarasvatī Ṭhākura used to come to the present ācāryadeva as an impulse first, which he translated into action at once. In spite of a hundred hindrances from so*-called religionists with a vision of a future worldwide mission, Śrīla Prabhupāda established Śrī Caitanya Maṭha at Śrī Māyāpur, the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, on the Phālguna Pūrṇimā day, the seventh March, 1918, which was a red-letter day in the history of theistic religious revival in this age. He started a countrywide movement to carry the message of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to every door. In a hectic manner, within a couple of years, he preached Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism throughout India and sent disciples to England, Germany, and other parts of Europe and Burma to preach the message of Śrī Caitanya and establish sixty-four branches under the name of Śrī Gauḍīya Maṭha throughout India and abroad, and a vast literature flowed through his versatile pen. The large number of publications in different languages and the vigorous missionary activities and door-to-door preaching by the sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs of the Maṭha, who held meetings in the remotest villages, duly spread Śrī Caitanya's teachings, which today are followed in every part of India. His songs are sung in chorus, and a great interest is created among the intelligentsia of India. After having become the president of the institution . . ." In this last paragraph, all of these activities of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, there is no mention of his name. His whole mission, there is actually no mention of his name, that he is the one who has done it. "After having become the president of the institution, Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja has been traveling throughout India and Pakistan preaching the devotional cult of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and he has come in contact with many savants of present India who are all struck with reverent admiration for his deep knowledge of philosophy. Dr. Rādhākamal Mukherjee, vice- chancellor of Lucknow University, remarks, 'There is no more distinguished and erudite interpreter of Śrī Caitanya's Vaiṣṇava thought than His Holiness Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja.' " And what is Rādhākamal Mukherjee? *" 'He has been a prolific writer and commentator and has traveled and discoursed widely in different parts of India. His profound illuminative discourses have everywhere created a genuine interest in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and in the dynamic religious movement he represents.' There may not be any doubt among the well*-informed people that the Śrī Caitanya Maṭha, with its branches, Śrī Gauḍīya Maṭhas, throughout India and abroad, have been propagating the greatest religion, which, from a realistic point of view, has helped to build up a true civilization. Today, due to the activities of Śrī Caitanya Maṭha, a spiritual thirst has been created, especially among the deep-thinking and educated people of the world, for people from all over the world are coming to this institution to learn and follow the great religion of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and to understand the practical Indian way of life. Today the headquarter extends over a mile, with beautiful temples, yet standing in an atmosphere of absorbing silence of meditation and worship, surrounded on all sides by emerald green paddy fields and the Ganges flowing hard by, far from the madding crowd's strife and strain. Māyāpur is now an enchanted place, the abode of peace. The atmosphere of the place is charming. The chanting of the holy name of Hari all day and night takes one to a celestial place." We don't hear the chanting from their maṭha all day and night. No, it's only from here. "It is more heavenly than heaven itself. It is the sacred Vṛndāvana of Bengal, hallowed by the dancing steps of the Lord, and its air is purified by His noble call to prayer. Whoever pays a visit to her will leave her with regret, and those who have not yet visited the place will carry their regrets unto death." So he is making some propaganda that he is the . . . Yes, just like in the woods the jackal is always crying that he is the king, but who cares for him? What is his qualification? So do we require to . . .? There is no use. No, our answer is all of these books. That's all. *Our answer is twenty*-four-hour kīrtana, prasādam distribution . . . And you keep it very carefully in the file. We should answer him by our preaching, by our vigorous preaching. Many people must be asking him, "What about this ISKCON maṭha ?" That's why he is . . . it's driving him mad. He's speaking against us all the time. He never says anything good about us. No, he is very envious about us. But I think now he must have come to the conclusion that there is no way to stop us, so he is thinking how he can . . . I have a hunch he is thinking how he can become connected in some way to get some benefit. That's why he is sending this man, this maṭha commander. Because he sees now there is no way he can stop us, so he is thinking, "How can I connect somehow with them? Because they have so much money, and they're going to be doing so many big things, I must establish a connection with them." So he wants to establish connection with us and . . . Yes, I think so. . . . and describe that he has . . . just like Mādhava Mahārāja also attempted. This is the attempt. So, what we have to do in this connection? Let them do whatever nonsense they want. We shall do our own business. And we have no business to propagate that we are making . . . people already know us all over the world. So . . . but suppose if he makes an attempt to mix with us so that he can take advantage, his main policy is that we may go there. That is his . . . because if we do not go, then all their propaganda makes him not very important if we go there . . . if we do not go there. Why does he depend upon our going there to become important? Because he is visualizing that by our propaganda throughout the whole world, people will come here. That he has already seen. And if we do not go there, then he becomes insignificant. "If we don't" means if anyone from all over the world who comes . . . Yes, naturally. People are attracted by the Westerners coming to the maṭha . So if we're up at that maṭha , any of us, and then they say: "Just see." They say in Bengali, "Just see. They are coming. To see our Guru Mahārāja, they are coming." That was the policy of Mādhava Mahārāja and Śrīdhara Mahārāja that, "Although Bhaktivedanta Swami is propagating throughout, he is subordinate to us, under our instruction." So all these three . . . A real dream world they are living in. Here they have even included our temple in their domain. "The headquarters extends for over a mile, with beautiful temples and paddy fields." When we put up our wall, then they will not be able to include us. (laughter) So what we should . . . the point is that no matter how much they press for any kind of mixing, our first point is, "You come here and visit us." And he'll never do that. Never do that. And we should not . . . we already invited him twice, so we don't have to give any more invitation. We should simply say verbally, "Let Tīrtha Mahārāja come here, as we have come so many times. Then we can speak about some kind of cooperation." Yes. I remember, Śrīla . . . you walked there. Yes. From here you walked all the way . . . Twice Prabhupāda has visited and personally requested, and he won't come here. And now . . . the thing is, now he might say: "If you give it to me in writing, I will come," but we'll say: "We have already personally come. Our spiritual master has come twice personally, and now you have to simply come. The invitation is already given. Now Tīrtha Mahārāja should come here." He'll never do that. He'll never come. Right. So then that way we don't have to cooperate. So this paper you keep, because these rascals, they may create some trouble. What kind of trouble? Trouble like this, just like he was detained. What was that? When I had that . . . They can file some complaint inducing something. Śrīla Prabhupāda, it was very interesting. Last night that complaint . . . my lawyer was this man who was sitting right here last night, this old man, Nandulal? He was my lawyer. Ācchā . And he is the one who asked me, "Who is behind this case?" He asked me when we brought him from Krishnanagar. Because he is considered the best lawyer in Nadia, so we brought him in, and as we were leaving, after the first time I appeared, he said, "There is someone . . . this man is a farmer, laborer. Who has put him up to this?" He said, "There is someone behind this." So he asked me, "Was it Śrīdhara? Someone of the Gauḍīya Maṭha is behind this." But he came last night with them, this lawyer, old man. He came with them. So they were definitely the ones behind it. Hmm? They were definitely the ones behind that case. They somehow got their hands on that man and had him bring charges, even though the whole thing was dropped, you know. Who was behind them? Well, this man, he mentioned Śrīdhara Mahārāja's name. He said: "Some Gauḍīya Maṭha person." He's a very good lawyer. Yes. He's retired, but he's the most respected lawyer in Nadia. So he mentioned. So he was in our side. Yes. So he had mentioned, "Someone from the Gauḍīya Maṭha." He said: "You have many enemies." He said: "This man would not have thought of this kind of thing, to do this kind of thing. Someone had to . . ." Who? When I had to go to court to appear for having kidnapped that woman and her son, that I was holding the woman and her son by force—the husband placed charges—so this lawyer said, "That . . . he was a simple man, a little crazy. He wouldn't have done it or had the money to do it. Someone with some more intelligence, higher intelligence, is behind him, goading him on, telling him what to do." He asked who did I think it was? He mentioned Gauḍīya Maṭha, and he asked for any . . . did I know any particular personalities. I said: "No." He said: "What about Śrīdhara Swami?" I said I didn't know who it was. Someone. So if Śrīdhara Swami was behind . . . maybe. There is no . . . The point is that they can make so much trouble like that. Small troubles. *Yes, little harassment. Then I even . . . of course, I don't know. I even question . . . just like that Lalita Bose, that whole incident which Jayapatākā told you about. Who knows? She is so influenced by . . . she is big, so*-called Vaiṣṇava, and known in so many circles in Bengal. Who is influencing her? You know? Anyway, we simply stay on our land and develop our program. He is going mad. Hmm? He is becoming mad. Who? Tīrtha Mahārāja. (laughs) How? Well, the more he hears. Because he gets so many reports. So many people are coming here, and no one is going there. Even . . . His mentality is becoming like Kaṁsa, I think. At every moment he is thinking, "This Prabhupāda, Prabhupāda . . ." So who . . .? Somebody inquired him that "What is this called? So many people are coming." Huh? Yes. He knows no one is coming there. Not very many more people are coming there than are here. Because most of the people come here . . . That they are realizing that, "We are becoming insignificant gradually." That they are realizing. No one goes to Mādhava Mahārāja's maṭha at all. The only maṭha that they still visit is that Śrī Caitanya Maṭha. And they have no money, so that place is becoming so dilapidated that no one is going there either. And there's no life there. There's no young people. There are no . . . No, how they can? They cannot feed them. We were speaking this morning, Bhavānanda Mahārāja and myself, that we were wondering if we could make like . . . you know, like so many people come here to eat prasādam . On the weekends, at least two to three thousand people come. So we were wondering whether it would be proper to make some kind of propaganda that, "If anyone wants to enroll their children here, their young boys in our gurukula , that they can . . ." So a similar counterpart leaflet you should that, "International Society for Krishna Consciousness, world organization, established by His Divine Grace, and anyone can come here and take foodstuff. We have got arrangement," like this. In suitable words you write and issue another pamphlet. Bengali. In Bengali and in English. Which may not touch there, but we write in our own way, that, "By the order of his guru he went to America. Then he . . ." That's a fact. What is the fact, that should be written. Give the list of the books and so on, so on. List of the temples. *Yes, temples. And "He is the ācārya of the present Gauḍīya*-sampradāya." If we simply state the facts, there is no need for us to subtly infer or to exaggerate, because your activities are so glorious that . . . And invite anyone who is interested to become devotee. We shall provide place, food, education to the children. In this way make another statement. I'm just wondering . . . I was thinking that whether we . . . Without touching them. Yes. This is . . . of course, we'll do this also. What about, like, all of these people coming? This is my point, that so many poor people are coming here. Practically they don't even have enough money to take care of their children properly. So whether we can make some verbal announcements, and whether we can set up a little table at the prasādam pavilion that, "Anyone who would like to enroll their sons in our school can do so"? Because many of these people can't take care of their children properly. I'm thinking when they see our boys they may want to give their sons. Yes, they will give. Is that a good program? Hmm. We can get many . . . I think we could get many, many men that way. The children, they are enjoying. In the morning they are enjoying. That is wanted. Yes, they're in ecstasy. All day they enjoy. When they are sweeping the road, they don't know that there's difference between work and play. No, no. To them, sweeping the road is their play. They love it. These children are much more hard working than the children in America. Like these few American boys that are here, they cannot compare with these Bengali boys. No. Their service attitude is much, much better. I think we should . . . By association they will be also. Yes, they have also improved. Jagaman has. Jagaman is wonderful. He works very hard. So I think we should try to get as many of these young boys as we can. We should use the facility of this prasādam distribution. The thing is that whether we should . . . this pamphlet, I don't think it has got any value. *It has no value, Prabhupāda. What we should do is build this temple. If we just build this temple . . . this is my point. Let us build this temple immediately. Once this temple is built, everything is finished. All the glowworms are completely extinguished. There will be nothing left. They can do anything they want, and nothing will matter. If they have a 350*-story building . . . 350-foot building with escalators, with huge compounds, then everything is ended. So do like that, like America. *He can come here and stand outside and scream, "I am the ācārya*-deva ." Just like in America so many people are saying: "I am Napoleon." No one . . . That everyone says. That is not . . . We have to build this temple, because . . . So make something like American which is wonderful for the world. So you are Americans. You must do something. If we build this temple with escalators and the people go in the temple and they go up the escalator . . . They'll never come back. . . . do you think that they're going to then go down the road to go into Śrī Caitanya Maṭha? Why would . . . what is the point of it after doing something like that? They'll never go. And if you can arrange some . . . what is called, that? This heliocopter. Helicopter. Bringing our men from Dum Dum airport to our roof. Yes. There are at least four roofs like this. Right. The people will see. All the pilgrims will see. Like the demigods flying in. At least we can make a show—it is coming twice in a day and going twice in a day. And they will see that, "Oh, so many people are coming." *So you have to . . . the thing is, we're simply waiting for your go*-ahead, because unless we get the land and we can begin, we can't start this. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has sent him. Let him come. Yes. We shouldn't delay. If we . . . this is a little pamphlet. If we issue a counter pamphlet, it's not . . . I don't think it's such an important thing. The thing to do is to do something . . . Yes, practical. . . . so significant that this becomes useless. Not that we issue another thing of this nature. This is already useless. Yes. I mean, what is the use of issuing another piece of paper against this paper? Let us make a skyscraper temple; then they can think what will be the comparison between this . . . On every level. Even the people this invitation was issued to. But they come, and when they come on Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura's appearance day, they all come down the road to here to visit. Really. Even he gives off so much energy inviting this one and that one, they all come. They all want to come down the road. They at least come down for darśana here. They do? Yes, they have to. They've all been here. They all know it. They come with different personalities, different friends . . . in Krishnanagar, we are like the cinema in terms of entertainment. As soon as any man, any official, government official, his friends come from Calcutta, immediately they get in one of their government jeeps and they drive out here and come to see the ISKCON Maṭha, Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir. Immediately. So many men, they come all the time with their friends from Calcutta. Same thing in Navadvīpa. They come for an evening's . . . Yes. Fully satisfied. The woman puts on her sārī , the man dresses up in his kurtā . . . So our arrangement should be to give them some prasadam , very nice treatment. We've got to do this. We've got to do this. And if important man should write something in the visitor's book . . . reception. There should be a reception, proper receptionist. So where the reception? Will sit? We'll make some arrangement. Make it immediately. Reception. That Nitāicānda is really first class. Huh? Nitāicānda is very good. Nitāicānda plus somebody very educated should be there. What about that . . . who do we have like that that speaks Bengali? Subhaga. Oh, they love Subhaga. He preaches in the temple at the book table during the busy hours. So many people buy books, and all interested. He's very . . . Subhaga. Subhaga make the chief of the reception. And Nitāicānda his assistant, and another, a foreigner. Nitāicānda is in charge of the building. He has so much to do anyway, Nitāicānda. Subhaga is best. Subhaga and two foreigners. As assistants. Hmm. Make that arrangement. He is very good boy. Yes, he is really good. And he has understood the philosophy. He has got ten years' experience of London. Yes. I met him in the London airport, and I told him, "Why don't you come to India?" 'Cause I saw him. I thought he'd be really helpful here. So, Prabhupāda, another thing, is there any need to increase our prasādam distribution? Like right now about a thousand people come. No, what . . . they are coming, but if you see that more are coming, then increase. There is no question of advertising. There isn't. We shouldn't advertise. *Rather, you make some arrangement that there will be prasādam *-selling there, and anyone comes within the temple, give him something. Just like I give here. Well, we don't do that at all. We do. Everyone who comes in the temple, they get that miṣṭi baḍā . Everyone? Everyone. Miṣṭi baḍā ? Miṣṭi baḍā we give, gūr and peanut with little coconut in it and masalā . Oh, we're famous now in the whole area. Even Jayapatākā was seeing one government official in Krishnanagar, and he said: "Did you bring me any of that baḍā ?" They all want. Anyway, something must be given. Yes, if we get a good cook like Shantilal and he can cook hundreds of singāra or kacaurī and we can sell, and then the next room have one men who serves them prasādam , everyone will come to take prasādam . Keep nice water, sitting place. They will take. What kind of sitting place? On the floor with mats, or benches and tables? Benches, table will be nice. Better. Like in a South Indian house. The South Indian restaurants, they have those . . . of course, those are fancy, like in Vṛndāvana. In the South Indian restaurant they always have a table with marble top. Then they put a leaf on it. Very nice. There is room down there. That big room can be used as like a restaurant. Where? The next floor down on the end, where they sometimes have class. No, Prabhupāda wants it up there where they sell the prasādam . They will buy in some leaf cup and then go next door and have a place to sit down and take it, and then water to wash their . . . actually, there's a pump. Everything is right there. You will find such confectioner's shop, sitting place and eating. Yes. Like that. Just like in Navadvīpa. They have that near the Gopīnātha temple in Vṛndāvana. Everybody goes there. That is very big. We should make a nice sweet, sweetmeats also. Lugloos is big there. Those lugloos . *We should make many types of sweetmeats. There should be so many preparations, all offered to the Deity. People can purchase mahā*-prasādam. Oh, it will be very big. When you read in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, every time Caitanya Mahāprabhu's devotees are purchasing prasādam from Jagannātha temple, all the time. Yes, that is the system. It sounds like they make a huge quantity at Purī, huge quantities of foodstuffs. Oh, yes. Any time you can get one thousand man's eatables. Any time? But we only offer one little plate at ārati . No, that you can increase as the demand is increased. There is such a demand in Purī? Yes. Everyone goes. They do not cook. He purchases prasādam and eat. Everyone. It's so famous. Yes, whenever someone visits there they always bring back prasādam from Jagannātha. *It is . . . fifty*-six time, prasādam is offered there. Fifty-six time. It's constant. Huh? It's constantly being offered, all day long. *Yes. Once offered, ārati is performed. Then it is taken away, washed, the room. Again half an hour after . . . why half an hour? Fifteen minutes after. Throughout the whole day and night, fifty*-six times. Night also. *Night . . . not night. But up to late night. So fifty*-six time, chāppānna , within twenty-four hours, so just imagine. Four or five times an hour. So we have to do that at this temple. Every fifteen minutes new set, prasādam . You need a whole lot of Shantilals to do that. And these ingredients are supplied by Jagannātha's own field. They grow it, and they . . . so there is no, I mean, difficulty. They grow and they sell. They get money so they can maintain the establishment. A long time. There are potters. Daily they will supply for each prasādam a new pot. It cannot be used again. So few people purchase with pot, original pot, and they have got a fixed price. This big pot, say, five rupees, this pot, two rupees; this pot, one rupee. So as you like, you can purchase. Very nice system. You went there sometimes to take prasādam ? *Yes, I became a guest. A gentleman was our tenant, and he gave me introduction letter to his brother*-in-law. He was a pleader in Jagannātha Purī. So he received me very well. So he offered me lunch, and I saw there was something, a small ball-like, in the pot, bowl. So I asked: "What is this?" He said: "It is meat." (laughs) He was eating meat, so he thought it is good reception, the guest is offered nice meat. So I said, "No, you . . . what is? I never took meat. I never expected; this is Jagannātha . . ." So then he became very much ashamed. He said: "I did not know. I thought this is the best . . ." Then, "Never mind." Then I stopped eating there. At that time I was a boy. After appearing in my B.A. examination there was holiday, so I went to Jagannātha Purī in 1920 or something like that. So I was married in 1918. So some of the friends of my wife, they said that, "Your husband now gone. He is not coming back." So after returning I understood she was crying. (laughs) So anyway, then I used to purchase prasādam in the market. They were bringing, and I was eating. I stayed for three, four days, that's all. You said that when you were very young you always used to calculate what was the cost of a ticket to Purī. Yes. Every day I was seeing how to go to Jagannātha Purī and how to go to Vṛndāvana. At that time a fare was, for Vṛndāvana, four or five rupees, and similarly for Jagannātha Purī. So I was thinking, "When I shall go?" That's all. I took first opportunity to go to Jagannātha Purī after my examination, and in business connection when I went to Agra, then I first of all took the opportunity to go to Vṛndāvana from Agra. This was in 1925, and I visited Jagannātha Purī sometime in 1920. And '25 I went to Vṛndāvana. I remember, in those days I was sitting within the car, and there was some prasādam . One monkey entered and took away everything. In the train compartment. Hmm. They are very clever. Many times in Vṛndāvana the monkeys have taken away from my hand foodstuff. While you were eating. Hmm. Thrice . . . at least thrice, four times I remember. You wanted them to take it? You were offering . . . No, suppose a big monkey comes and takes. You are stumped. (laughter) You have to give him. No other way. They will attack otherwise. *In Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple I was cooking, the other room. So although the door was closed, he knew. He opened the door and took away. Sometimes they would take away the . . . (door opens) Come on. The, what is called, dough? For . . .? Cāpāṭis ? Cāpāṭi . So they will eat that. Raw dough. You gave him some book, this Surendra? That was a long time ago I gave one book. Since then you told me not . . . you wrote that don't give any books, but that was a long time ago I gave. That's all right. So you have talked and dealt with him? He came to me and said he wanted a job here. He said he wanted to be our manager, this and that. And then he was hinting about that they were getting one wage, one allowance, so he was expecting to get some allowance also, a little more. So he is coming now. What is the purpose? He wanted to be our . . . to work for us. To work for Your Divine Grace, maybe. How did you find him by dealing with him? I didn't find him. He found me. No, no, how you have . . .? How do you . . .? Oh, how did I find . . . how did . . .? Well, I know that influentially he is, in the district level, he is very influential. I mean to say that he has got very good relations with all the government people and all the local people. And whenever I go somewhere to invite them for any festival, any function, they would always speak highly of Surendra Das and that he had just about a week ago before, he had already invited them for the Caitanya Maṭha. So he is very active in that way, something which we don't have time or understanding to do, so many of us. He knows how to receive people and make them feel very nice and then show them around. He has got that . . . a nice personality like that, and he is very active in . . . So if we engage him, do you think we shall get some good service? I don't know the . . . I know that he is able to perform good service. As far as whether he'll . . . other people tell me that since he's been working for the Caitanya Maṭha . . . (break) (end) Conversation in Bengali -- March 6, 1976, Mayapur (Bengali Meeting with Godbrothers) (Translated from Bengali) (announcing in English) Prabhupāda goes to the Caitanya Math in Māyāpur in the morning of March 6th, 1976. Speaking with his Godbrothers there. (laughter) (Śrīla Prabhupāda’s bhajan playing in the background) Do I need to get up? Is there going to be kirtan ? Yes. Please let us go there. Take the seats to the temple . . . (indistinct) (laughter) You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. ( mṛdanga and karatālas playing) (break) *Prabhupāda leads the prema*-dhvani prayers and all the assembled devotees repeat after him: All glories to the assembled devotees. Hare Kṛṣṇa! All glories to the assembled devotees. Hare Kṛṣṇa! All glories to the assembled devotees.Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa! (chants pranam mantras) All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! (conversation between Śrīla Prabhupāda and his Godbrothers. regarding preaching in the Middle East. mostly indistinct) In the Middle East, we’ve organised programs . . . Where? In the Middle East . . . Arabia . . . (indistinct) (to devotee) What’s the name of that Professor? (indistinct) Doctor N . . . (indistinct) He’s the most eminent scholar in Iran. He’s received our books very well. What has he said about our books? That . . . (indistinct) . . . represents the real Vedic tradition. *He’s Muslim but appreciates mantra*-vidya . (indistinct conversation) They will accept everywhere but slowly. They will accept slowly. (indistinct conversation) Even in Japan. The problem is with the language. The Japanese boys are very good. They do not understand English? They know but very little. They are philosophical. I heard in Germany . . . Yes, in Germany it is big . . . West Germany? Yes. In Poland, Slovakia, Rome. Even Hungary. Hungary . . . Hong Kong. (indistinct) In Germany we have published Caitanya Caritāmṛta. Have you read a page or two? Yes. (laughter) . . . (indistinct) . . . is the fourth chapter completed? All completed. . . . (indistinct) Seventeen volumes. (recites an inaudible verse) I want to read that part. It is there . . . That part I want to read. All complete. Seventeen volumes. Beautiful colour illustrations.Wonderful paintings inside. Hmm . . . seventeen volumes. In all universities, colleges, professors . . . have given standing orders. You may like to give one set to Prabhupāda's library. Sure. . . . (indistinct) (laughter) ( japa ) . . . (indistinct) (inaudible) In New Vṛndāvana, we manufacture a lot of ghee. Ghee? Hmm. Everyday, there is one thousand pounds of ghee. I have started a farm there. Really? *There is one thousand pounds of milk . . . (indistinct) . . . they give fifty*-sixty pounds of milk, each. New Vṛndāvana . . . how much land is there . . . land . . . how much land? Hmm? Land? One thousand acres. One thousand acres? Yes. Where? In New Vṛndāvana? (chuckling) In New Vṛndāvana. One thousand acres? Yes. (chuckling) Was it just lying there? There is plenty of land in America. (indistinct background conversation) Proper utilisation is not happening. This is what I keep saying, that there’s so much available land on this planet. If there can be proper utilisation of this land, then ten times the numbers of the existing population of this planet can be fed. (laughter) They say there is over population. This is nonsense. India has too much . . . Nowhere has that (overpopulation) happened. That is a foolish person's idea. (laughter) Land utilisation has not happened. We understand . . . " eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān " (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). So what even if there is overpopulation, can He not feed everyone? (laughter) *All these theories are due to a 'God*-less' civilisation. (laughter) When Mahārāja Pṛthu asked, "Why are you not giving them?" Then what did Mother Earth reply? She said, "I will not give the demons. I will not give them." Yes. (laughter) *When human beings become demonic, they are going to starve to death. 'God*-less'. Otherwise, is there any dearth in Bhagavān's (the Supreme Person) kingdom? It is said, "eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān" (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is feeding everyone . . . overpopulation . . . the birds and animals, do they care about overpopulation? (laughter) They eat as must as they need. They take care of one dozen off-spring. Does overpopulation affect them? This is foolish. The most important thing is stated in the Bhāgavatam (śloka) but they want to starve and kill them. (laughter) *This is most important. If everyone is 'God*-centric', then there is no problem. *Yes, then there is no problem. As we have observed, one year there is an abundance of mangoes, another year there were hardly any. This is in nature's hands. God can give in abundance, even when there is an abundance of population. If someone chooses to be foolish and demonic (inaudible). Yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham ( Bhagavad-gītā 10.10) There is no lack in Bhagavān's kingdom. The thing is . . . (indistinct) (laughter) *Prabhupāda has said that the only thing lacking is Hari*-bhakti . Lack of Hari-kathā . (indistinct conversation) *There's a famine of Hari*-kathā (Kṛṣṇa's words). I have seen, they discard wheat into the ocean. They opine that if there is overproduction of food-grain, then the prices will go down if there is an abundance. Because when there is over-supply, prices will reduce, so they throw the food-grains. (end) Conversation in Bengali -- March 6, 1976, Mayapur (Bengali Meeting with Godbrothers) (Translated from Bengali) (announcing in English) Prabhupāda goes to the Caitanya Math in Māyāpur in the morning of March 6th, 1976. Speaking with his Godbrothers there. (laughter) (Śrīla Prabhupāda’s bhajan playing in the background) Do I need to get up? Is there going to be kirtan ? Yes. Please let us go there. Take the seats to the temple . . . (indistinct) (laughter) You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. ( mṛdanga and karatālas playing) (break) *Prabhupāda leads the prema*-dhvani prayers and all the assembled devotees repeat after him: All glories to the assembled devotees. Hare Kṛṣṇa! All glories to the assembled devotees. Hare Kṛṣṇa! All glories to the assembled devotees.Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa! (chants pranam mantras) All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! (conversation between Śrīla Prabhupāda and his Godbrothers. regarding preaching in the Middle East. mostly indistinct) In the Middle East, we’ve organised programs . . . Where? In the Middle East . . . Arabia . . . (indistinct) (to devotee) What’s the name of that Professor? (indistinct) Doctor N . . . (indistinct) He’s the most eminent scholar in Iran. He’s received our books very well. What has he said about our books? That . . . (indistinct) . . . represents the real Vedic tradition. *He’s Muslim but appreciates mantra*-vidya . (indistinct conversation) They will accept everywhere but slowly. They will accept slowly. (indistinct conversation) Even in Japan. The problem is with the language. The Japanese boys are very good. They do not understand English? They know but very little. They are philosophical. I heard in Germany . . . Yes, in Germany it is big . . . West Germany? Yes. In Poland, Slovakia, Rome. Even Hungary. Hungary . . . Hong Kong. (indistinct) In Germany we have published Caitanya Caritāmṛta. Have you read a page or two? Yes. (laughter) . . . (indistinct) . . . is the fourth chapter completed? All completed. . . . (indistinct) Seventeen volumes. (recites an inaudible verse) I want to read that part. It is there . . . That part I want to read. All complete. Seventeen volumes. Beautiful colour illustrations.Wonderful paintings inside. Hmm . . . seventeen volumes. In all universities, colleges, professors . . . have given standing orders. You may like to give one set to Prabhupāda's library. Sure. . . . (indistinct) (laughter) ( japa ) . . . (indistinct) (inaudible) In New Vṛndāvana, we manufacture a lot of ghee. Ghee? Hmm. Everyday, there is one thousand pounds of ghee. I have started a farm there. Really? *There is one thousand pounds of milk . . . (indistinct) . . . they give fifty*-sixty pounds of milk, each. New Vṛndāvana . . . how much land is there . . . land . . . how much land? Hmm? Land? One thousand acres. One thousand acres? Yes. Where? In New Vṛndāvana? (chuckling) In New Vṛndāvana. One thousand acres? Yes. (chuckling) Was it just lying there? There is plenty of land in America. (indistinct background conversation) Proper utilisation is not happening. This is what I keep saying, that there’s so much available land on this planet. If there can be proper utilisation of this land, then ten times the numbers of the existing population of this planet can be fed. (laughter) They say there is over population. This is nonsense. India has too much . . . Nowhere has that (overpopulation) happened. That is a foolish person's idea. (laughter) Land utilisation has not happened. We understand . . . " eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān " (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). So what even if there is overpopulation, can He not feed everyone? (laughter) *All these theories are due to a 'God*-less' civilisation. (laughter) When Mahārāja Pṛthu asked, "Why are you not giving them?" Then what did Mother Earth reply? She said, "I will not give the demons. I will not give them." Yes. (laughter) *When human beings become demonic, they are going to starve to death. 'God*-less'. Otherwise, is there any dearth in Bhagavān's (the Supreme Person) kingdom? It is said, "eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān" (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is feeding everyone . . . overpopulation . . . the birds and animals, do they care about overpopulation? (laughter) They eat as must as they need. They take care of one dozen off-spring. Does overpopulation affect them? This is foolish. The most important thing is stated in the Bhāgavatam (śloka) but they want to starve and kill them. (laughter) *This is most important. If everyone is 'God*-centric', then there is no problem. *Yes, then there is no problem. As we have observed, one year there is an abundance of mangoes, another year there were hardly any. This is in nature's hands. God can give in abundance, even when there is an abundance of population. If someone chooses to be foolish and demonic (inaudible). Yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham ( Bhagavad-gītā 10.10) There is no lack in Bhagavān's kingdom. The thing is . . . (indistinct) (laughter) *Prabhupāda has said that the only thing lacking is Hari*-bhakti . Lack of Hari-kathā . (indistinct conversation) *There's a famine of Hari*-kathā (Kṛṣṇa's words). I have seen, they discard wheat into the ocean. They opine that if there is overproduction of food-grain, then the prices will go down if there is an abundance. Because when there is over-supply, prices will reduce, so they throw the food-grains. (end) Conversation -- March 16, 1976, Mayapur *(Conversation With Radha*-Damodara Sankirtana Party) Okay. Some men can come through the other room and stand out here. Some devotees are going to have to go around. You lead them, Gargamuni. Get this fan on. Fan and lights. Fan and lights. Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . Hmm. On behalf of all the bhaktas and Rādhā Dāmodara, we'd like to offer you this dakṣiṇā . Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. Jaya . *You know, if Kṛṣṇa is virāḍ*-rūpa —so big mouth, so big belly—that, whatever you give, that is not sufficient. (chuckles) So here we are spreading Kṛṣṇa's mouth very widespread. Here is the plan for Māyāpur temple. This is the . . . this is only residential quarter. Real temple is not yet constructed. It will occupy 350 acres of land. So you are the pillars of this construction work. We are doing all your construction work on your contribution. So go on preaching and distributing books. If we get the . . . we are . . . books are . . . as your pushing on the sale is very nice, then the customers are also nice. These are American Express? No, no. Barclay's Bank. Now everyone is issuing these traveler's check. But these are issued differently. In American Express, they charge some money, but these are freely given. Ācchā ? Then why the American Express will remain if people will go there? Free service to the constituent, those who are customer. I think even to those who are not the constituents also. Ācchā . The public also. This happens to be our bank that we deal with. Barclay Bank is big bank, American bank. *This Ādi*-keśava Swami, his grandfather is Mr. Barclay. (laughter) It is grandfather's bank? *Great*-uncle. *Great*-uncle. You are Mr. Barclay also? No. Different name. So our . . . they are accommodated in how many buses? *Currently in six buses and six airports, because Tripurāri Mahārāja leads about twenty*-five men distributing in different airports around the country, and then there's another hundred men who are working out of six buses. Now two more buses are being built to accommodate everyone. And then another ten men are working at our bus construction head office. So, of course, you are not going to be absent for many, many days. You come and go. There won't be any difficulty, because every . . . They are trained up. Yes. That is the . . . training, that is the real perfection. And our Tripurāri Mahārāja is there, and Viṣṇujana Mahārāja. *Yes. And Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja is very expert, and Madhudviṣa Swami will be helping them. *A devotee's one qualification is dakṣa, dakṣa, expert. Out of the twenty*-six qualifications, a devotee is always very expert in dealing. It is not that because they have left anything material, they do not know how to deal with material things. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī did it. Perhaps you know the story. Political. Although he had nothing to do with material things, when there was a political gain, he tackled it very nicely when he was young man. But devotee, although not interested in material things, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake they deal with material things very expertly. That should be the qualification of a devotee: expert. Not that, "I have nothing to do with these material things." No. The devotee's vision is: in everything there is Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. Just like we are using this Dictaphone and tape record. It is material things. Sometimes they accuse that, "You are against material things. Why you are using these material advantages?" Do they not? You do not meet such men? Yes. *But for us there is nothing material. We have no such vision as "material" and "spiritual." Material means when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right. That is material. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram ( BG 5.29). He is the proprietor, He is the enjoyer. So, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything Kṛṣṇa's. So when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right on everything, that is material. Otherwise there is nothing material; everything spiritual. Everything is generated by Kṛṣṇa's energies, and there are two energies: material energy and spiritual energy. So in the material energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is less or nil. And in spiritual energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is prominent and very acute. I think I give this example somewhere—just like this nail, and just little below, there is skin. Both of them are my body, but in the skin there is sensation; *in the nail there is no sensation. But both of them are coming from the same source, the body. Similarly, everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ (SB 1.5.20). Everything is Bhagavān, but it appears like different to the different vision. Therefore we take everything, kṛṣṇa*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.26). Everything . . . in everything there is Kṛṣṇa's relationship. So there is no question of giving it up. Why shall I give it up? This is Kṛṣṇa's property. Why shall I give it up, prāpañcikatayā buddhyā , by mistaking it as material? Kṛṣṇa-sambandhi-vastunaḥ . So these Māyāvādīs, they say the brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā : "This material world is false, and Brahman is reality." And we don't say that. Everything is reality because it comes from reality. When it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is unreality. It is not properly being used. Otherwise there is no such thing as unreality, because it is coming from reality. So why shall I give it up, tyāga ? Neither tyāga , neither bhoga . Everything utilize for Kṛṣṇa. This is our way. Any question on this regard? I saw your wife also. She is here. Yes. She is here. Practically all of these devotees are so much dedicated to book distribution that they are going out now nearly seven days a week, without stoppage. Utsāhān . *Utsāhā is the basic principle, utsāhān and sādhu*-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), association of sādhu . Simply utsāhān and the association is not sādhu —then it is material. Utsāhā means association of sādhu. Sādhu means devotee. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). Who is sādhu ? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. One who has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa, he is sādhu . So the association of such sādhu . . . sādhu, sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge . Whatever a sādhu does, there is no fault. Everything is right. But still, because we are in this material world, we shall act in such a way that nobody can accuse us. Sato vṛtteḥ. Sādhu is above all this vṛtta , but still, you keep pace with the material world; otherwise your activities will be hampered. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has said sato vṛtti : "The dealings should be very honest." Sato vṛtteḥ sādhu saṅge, ṣaḍbhiḥ , six items. Utsāhān , enthusiasm; dhairyāt , patience. Utsāhān dhairyāt niścayāt , with confidence. So enthusiasm, patience, confidence. *Tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt. *Tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt . You have to act according to the prescribed way, and sato vṛtteḥ , and dealings very honest, and sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83). Everything perfect. So where you are all staying? In new quarters? No, we have been very fortunate. They have given us . . . just as you have this wing, they have given us the whole wing on the next floor above. Oh, that's very nice. It's very comfortably situated. *Everything, water supply, everything is there? In the beginning I thought that "Such a big building. Who will come and live here?" (laughter) It is that Matsyāvatāra. You know Matsyāvatāra? Keśava dhṛta*-mīna-śarīra, jaya jagadīśa hare . That one muni , he took water in his pot. He saw a fish. So after some time he saw the fish has grown, that it cannot be kept in that kamaṇḍalu . Then he gave more space. Then after some . . . he saw, he has . . . "It is filled up." Again more, again more. Then he threw it in the ocean, and again still big. (chuckles) That is Kṛṣṇa. Pralaya-payodhi-jale dhṛtavān asi vedam . And do you know this song: *Similarly, Varāha*-mūrti also. Prabhupāda? When I was very young, in the house I was living in, my friend, his father was from Louisiana, where they have many alligators. This was in New York. Where it is? Louisiana means near . . . around Florida. Oh. Many . . .? Alligators, crocodiles. Crocodile. So one day his father brought him two little crocodiles as a pet back to New York, where we were living. So he was keeping them in the bathtub. But just as you described, they started to grow, and eventually they became so big that he had to keep them in the house, and then they were running. And anyone that would come in, they would run. (laughter) Finally they had . . . Very ferocious. They had to give them to the zoo, New York Zoo. But I understand they can be tamed also. Is it possible? I don't think so. In Miami where I grew up, they used to have crocodile fights. What they would do, they would feed the crocodiles until they were completely sleepy, then they would fight with them . . . Ācchā ? . . . so they couldn't move around so quick. Sometimes they take their teeth out. *Then what remains? The teeth is dangerous. Yes. How condemned life. And we had to pass through all these. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). Nine lakhs of forms in the water. Crocodile is one of these. Just see how accurate is Vedic information. Never says: "Ten lakhs " or "Eight lakhs ." Nine lakhs . Now, if you don't believe, count. Go ahead. Count. How this knowledge is there? Nobody can go within the water to count how many forms are there, but how the Vedas gives the knowledge perfectly? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. This is Vedic knowledge. Where you cannot reach, and you refer to Vedas , you'll get the knowledge. That is Vedas , perfect knowledge. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi . Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given the example: stool is impure, rejectable. Everyone knows. Veda says: "No, cow dung is pure." And you examine it, you'll find it is pure. That is Vedic knowledge. When you get information from the Vedas , it is perfectly right. So it is easier to take knowledge from the Vedas . Then you'll become perfect in knowledge. There is no question of researching. That is not possible. What you'll research? How many animals are there, aquatics are there, in the water? It is beyond your experience. Is there any scientist who can go within the water and count how many aquatic forms are there? Nothing you can do. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣā viṁśati. What information we have got? Even you cannot speak perfectly well about this universe. We are not able even to speak perfectly what is there in the moon planet. They are going, trying to go, and coming back. And still, they are claiming perfection, as perfect as God. Just see how lunatic they are. I think that the newly initiated brāhmaṇas have to come now. Maybe we should . . . So some meeting is not going to be held, down? Yes, there's constantly kīrtanas and discourses. Lecture. Lectures and kīrtanas . Kīrtanas . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's soldier to fight with māyā . Jaya! *You are our commander*-in-chief, Prabhupāda. Jaya Prabhupāda. *Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself says, ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo (Ohe Vaiṣṇava Ṭhākura). When He . . . in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta you have seen? In the first part you can find out this verse, ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo . There's a song like that also. What is that? He says it may be in a song also, one of the Vaiṣṇava songs. The first part. Here, this is first part of the . . . Look in the index in the back. Index. You can read it. So you are reading books also. Not selling, but reading also. Really they are soldiers, because many of them have been very severely beaten by police authorities and others during the distribution. Ācchā ? Yes. The men who are here now in this room, some of them have been put in jails . . . (aside) Watch out for that thing. Put in jails and beaten just for distributing these books. So there was no legal action? It's in the courts. Some places the police have a conspiracy against our devotees. What is our fault? We have no fault except that we are successful. We are so successful, and they are envious. That they don't want. The people want, but the authorities don't want. You have found out? No, I . . . the index is not there, Prabhupāda. There is no index? No index. First chapter? No, how you'll find it? Give me. Unless you have an index list . . . the purport of the verse is that even Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu—He is God himself, Kṛṣṇa Himself—He felt, alone, unable to do this task. He felt. So this is the position. You are cooperating, therefore I am getting the credit. Otherwise, alone what could I do? Ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo. Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself wanted our cooperation. He is God, Kṛṣṇa. And therefore cooperation is very important thing. Nobody should think that, "I have got so great ability. I can do." No. It is simply by cooperation we can do very big thing. "United we stand; divided we fall." This is our . . . so be strong in pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Kṛṣṇa will help. He is the strongest. Still, we must be combined together. Saṅkīrtana. Saṅkīrtana means many men combined together chanting. That is saṅkīrtana . Otherwise kīrtana. Saṅkīrtana. Bahubhir militvā kīrtayeti saṅkīrtana. Bahu. Bahu means many; many combined together. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, combined together. All nations, all persons, they should combine together. There is hope in our Society, combination. There are Hindus; there are Muslims; there are Christians; *there are black, white. Combine them. That looks very beautiful, just like combination of many flowers. There is black flower also. It looks nice, very nice. Each and every flower take alone, it is not beautiful, but when they are combined together, it looks very beautiful. It is attractive. And that is wanted. Because from the spiritual platform we are all working. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Spiritual platform, every one of us, we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. So where is the competition between one servant with another? There is . . . even there is competition, the center is Kṛṣṇa—"Who can serve more?" Therefore that competition is very welcome, because there is no personal interest. Everyone is trying how to serve Kṛṣṇa more. That is wanted. The competition is there in his real form and perverted form. In the real form Kṛṣṇa is the center, and the perverted form, I am the center. I compete with you to satisfy my senses more. What is called? Heliocentric or . . .? Egocentric. Egocentric, yes. This is egocentric. *It should be Kṛṣṇa*-centric. Yes, then it is perfect. The competition must remain. The others, they say: "Why competition? Make it zero." That is imperfect. But competition to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is reality. *I found the verse. It's in " Ohe Vaiṣṇava Ṭhākura ." Ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo, hari*-nāma-saṅkīrtane. Yes, yes, not this verse. What is the meaning? Meaning is, "I do not find the strength to carry on alone the saṅkīrtana of the holy name of Hari. Please bless me by giving me just one drop of faith with which one can attain the great treasure of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa." So nobody is powerful alone. In Kṛṣṇa's service also, combine together. That is wanted. I think there is no question of being alone anywhere, because the guru is always with one. Yes, that is the ideal. Jaya Prabhupāda. Guru is also depending, and combination means I depend on you, you depend on me, that's all. That is combination. That's all. So, prasādam ? Now we are fasting. We are fasting. In the evening there will be prasādam . Arrangement is being made for? You are taking very nice care of us here, Prabhupāda. Jaya! Haribol! Next year it will be very nice. Our these rooms will be complete. I think this year also, not very much inconvenience. Not at all. *In Bengali there is a proverb, "If you are good men, then you can accommodate yourself lying in a leaf of the tamarind." You know the tamarind leaf? That is the smallest leaf of the tree. Big tree, and the leaf is very small. Yodi hao sujan, tetul patay na*-jan. (If people have a good relationship then in a tamarind life, nine people can stay together.) And just contrary to that. These are American tape recorder or Japanese? Japanese. All right. Jaya Prabhupāda! (offer obeisances) Take this apple and cut into pieces. Prabhupāda ki jaya! *Hare Kṛṣṇa. All glories to the saṅkīrtana party, Rādhā*-Dāmodara. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Jaya . Prabhupāda, we signed only the two top checks. The rest we left blank so you can do whatever you want. You can fill in whatever you want on the inside. That is good. (end) Conversation -- March 16, 1976, Mayapur *(Conversation With Radha*-Damodara Sankirtana Party) Okay. Some men can come through the other room and stand out here. Some devotees are going to have to go around. You lead them, Gargamuni. Get this fan on. Fan and lights. Fan and lights. Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . Hmm. On behalf of all the bhaktas and Rādhā Dāmodara, we'd like to offer you this dakṣiṇā . Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. Jaya . *You know, if Kṛṣṇa is virāḍ*-rūpa —so big mouth, so big belly—that, whatever you give, that is not sufficient. (chuckles) So here we are spreading Kṛṣṇa's mouth very widespread. Here is the plan for Māyāpur temple. This is the . . . this is only residential quarter. Real temple is not yet constructed. It will occupy 350 acres of land. So you are the pillars of this construction work. We are doing all your construction work on your contribution. So go on preaching and distributing books. If we get the . . . we are . . . books are . . . as your pushing on the sale is very nice, then the customers are also nice. These are American Express? No, no. Barclay's Bank. Now everyone is issuing these traveler's check. But these are issued differently. In American Express, they charge some money, but these are freely given. Ācchā ? Then why the American Express will remain if people will go there? Free service to the constituent, those who are customer. I think even to those who are not the constituents also. Ācchā . The public also. This happens to be our bank that we deal with. Barclay Bank is big bank, American bank. *This Ādi*-keśava Swami, his grandfather is Mr. Barclay. (laughter) It is grandfather's bank? *Great*-uncle. *Great*-uncle. You are Mr. Barclay also? No. Different name. So our . . . they are accommodated in how many buses? *Currently in six buses and six airports, because Tripurāri Mahārāja leads about twenty*-five men distributing in different airports around the country, and then there's another hundred men who are working out of six buses. Now two more buses are being built to accommodate everyone. And then another ten men are working at our bus construction head office. So, of course, you are not going to be absent for many, many days. You come and go. There won't be any difficulty, because every . . . They are trained up. Yes. That is the . . . training, that is the real perfection. And our Tripurāri Mahārāja is there, and Viṣṇujana Mahārāja. *Yes. And Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja is very expert, and Madhudviṣa Swami will be helping them. *A devotee's one qualification is dakṣa, dakṣa, expert. Out of the twenty*-six qualifications, a devotee is always very expert in dealing. It is not that because they have left anything material, they do not know how to deal with material things. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī did it. Perhaps you know the story. Political. Although he had nothing to do with material things, when there was a political gain, he tackled it very nicely when he was young man. But devotee, although not interested in material things, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake they deal with material things very expertly. That should be the qualification of a devotee: expert. Not that, "I have nothing to do with these material things." No. The devotee's vision is: in everything there is Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. Just like we are using this Dictaphone and tape record. It is material things. Sometimes they accuse that, "You are against material things. Why you are using these material advantages?" Do they not? You do not meet such men? Yes. *But for us there is nothing material. We have no such vision as "material" and "spiritual." Material means when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right. That is material. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram ( BG 5.29). He is the proprietor, He is the enjoyer. So, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything Kṛṣṇa's. So when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right on everything, that is material. Otherwise there is nothing material; everything spiritual. Everything is generated by Kṛṣṇa's energies, and there are two energies: material energy and spiritual energy. So in the material energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is less or nil. And in spiritual energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is prominent and very acute. I think I give this example somewhere—just like this nail, and just little below, there is skin. Both of them are my body, but in the skin there is sensation; *in the nail there is no sensation. But both of them are coming from the same source, the body. Similarly, everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ (SB 1.5.20). Everything is Bhagavān, but it appears like different to the different vision. Therefore we take everything, kṛṣṇa*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.26). Everything . . . in everything there is Kṛṣṇa's relationship. So there is no question of giving it up. Why shall I give it up? This is Kṛṣṇa's property. Why shall I give it up, prāpañcikatayā buddhyā , by mistaking it as material? Kṛṣṇa-sambandhi-vastunaḥ . So these Māyāvādīs, they say the brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā : "This material world is false, and Brahman is reality." And we don't say that. Everything is reality because it comes from reality. When it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is unreality. It is not properly being used. Otherwise there is no such thing as unreality, because it is coming from reality. So why shall I give it up, tyāga ? Neither tyāga , neither bhoga . Everything utilize for Kṛṣṇa. This is our way. Any question on this regard? I saw your wife also. She is here. Yes. She is here. Practically all of these devotees are so much dedicated to book distribution that they are going out now nearly seven days a week, without stoppage. Utsāhān . *Utsāhā is the basic principle, utsāhān and sādhu*-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), association of sādhu . Simply utsāhān and the association is not sādhu —then it is material. Utsāhā means association of sādhu. Sādhu means devotee. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). Who is sādhu ? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. One who has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa, he is sādhu . So the association of such sādhu . . . sādhu, sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge . Whatever a sādhu does, there is no fault. Everything is right. But still, because we are in this material world, we shall act in such a way that nobody can accuse us. Sato vṛtteḥ. Sādhu is above all this vṛtta , but still, you keep pace with the material world; otherwise your activities will be hampered. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has said sato vṛtti : "The dealings should be very honest." Sato vṛtteḥ sādhu saṅge, ṣaḍbhiḥ , six items. Utsāhān , enthusiasm; dhairyāt , patience. Utsāhān dhairyāt niścayāt , with confidence. So enthusiasm, patience, confidence. *Tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt. *Tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt . You have to act according to the prescribed way, and sato vṛtteḥ , and dealings very honest, and sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83). Everything perfect. So where you are all staying? In new quarters? No, we have been very fortunate. They have given us . . . just as you have this wing, they have given us the whole wing on the next floor above. Oh, that's very nice. It's very comfortably situated. *Everything, water supply, everything is there? In the beginning I thought that "Such a big building. Who will come and live here?" (laughter) It is that Matsyāvatāra. You know Matsyāvatāra? Keśava dhṛta*-mīna-śarīra, jaya jagadīśa hare . That one muni , he took water in his pot. He saw a fish. So after some time he saw the fish has grown, that it cannot be kept in that kamaṇḍalu . Then he gave more space. Then after some . . . he saw, he has . . . "It is filled up." Again more, again more. Then he threw it in the ocean, and again still big. (chuckles) That is Kṛṣṇa. Pralaya-payodhi-jale dhṛtavān asi vedam . And do you know this song: *Similarly, Varāha*-mūrti also. Prabhupāda? When I was very young, in the house I was living in, my friend, his father was from Louisiana, where they have many alligators. This was in New York. Where it is? Louisiana means near . . . around Florida. Oh. Many . . .? Alligators, crocodiles. Crocodile. So one day his father brought him two little crocodiles as a pet back to New York, where we were living. So he was keeping them in the bathtub. But just as you described, they started to grow, and eventually they became so big that he had to keep them in the house, and then they were running. And anyone that would come in, they would run. (laughter) Finally they had . . . Very ferocious. They had to give them to the zoo, New York Zoo. But I understand they can be tamed also. Is it possible? I don't think so. In Miami where I grew up, they used to have crocodile fights. What they would do, they would feed the crocodiles until they were completely sleepy, then they would fight with them . . . Ācchā ? . . . so they couldn't move around so quick. Sometimes they take their teeth out. *Then what remains? The teeth is dangerous. Yes. How condemned life. And we had to pass through all these. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). Nine lakhs of forms in the water. Crocodile is one of these. Just see how accurate is Vedic information. Never says: "Ten lakhs " or "Eight lakhs ." Nine lakhs . Now, if you don't believe, count. Go ahead. Count. How this knowledge is there? Nobody can go within the water to count how many forms are there, but how the Vedas gives the knowledge perfectly? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. This is Vedic knowledge. Where you cannot reach, and you refer to Vedas , you'll get the knowledge. That is Vedas , perfect knowledge. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi . Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given the example: stool is impure, rejectable. Everyone knows. Veda says: "No, cow dung is pure." And you examine it, you'll find it is pure. That is Vedic knowledge. When you get information from the Vedas , it is perfectly right. So it is easier to take knowledge from the Vedas . Then you'll become perfect in knowledge. There is no question of researching. That is not possible. What you'll research? How many animals are there, aquatics are there, in the water? It is beyond your experience. Is there any scientist who can go within the water and count how many aquatic forms are there? Nothing you can do. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣā viṁśati. What information we have got? Even you cannot speak perfectly well about this universe. We are not able even to speak perfectly what is there in the moon planet. They are going, trying to go, and coming back. And still, they are claiming perfection, as perfect as God. Just see how lunatic they are. I think that the newly initiated brāhmaṇas have to come now. Maybe we should . . . So some meeting is not going to be held, down? Yes, there's constantly kīrtanas and discourses. Lecture. Lectures and kīrtanas . Kīrtanas . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's soldier to fight with māyā . Jaya! *You are our commander*-in-chief, Prabhupāda. Jaya Prabhupāda. *Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself says, ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo (Ohe Vaiṣṇava Ṭhākura). When He . . . in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta you have seen? In the first part you can find out this verse, ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo . There's a song like that also. What is that? He says it may be in a song also, one of the Vaiṣṇava songs. The first part. Here, this is first part of the . . . Look in the index in the back. Index. You can read it. So you are reading books also. Not selling, but reading also. Really they are soldiers, because many of them have been very severely beaten by police authorities and others during the distribution. Ācchā ? Yes. The men who are here now in this room, some of them have been put in jails . . . (aside) Watch out for that thing. Put in jails and beaten just for distributing these books. So there was no legal action? It's in the courts. Some places the police have a conspiracy against our devotees. What is our fault? We have no fault except that we are successful. We are so successful, and they are envious. That they don't want. The people want, but the authorities don't want. You have found out? No, I . . . the index is not there, Prabhupāda. There is no index? No index. First chapter? No, how you'll find it? Give me. Unless you have an index list . . . the purport of the verse is that even Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu—He is God himself, Kṛṣṇa Himself—He felt, alone, unable to do this task. He felt. So this is the position. You are cooperating, therefore I am getting the credit. Otherwise, alone what could I do? Ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo. Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself wanted our cooperation. He is God, Kṛṣṇa. And therefore cooperation is very important thing. Nobody should think that, "I have got so great ability. I can do." No. It is simply by cooperation we can do very big thing. "United we stand; divided we fall." This is our . . . so be strong in pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Kṛṣṇa will help. He is the strongest. Still, we must be combined together. Saṅkīrtana. Saṅkīrtana means many men combined together chanting. That is saṅkīrtana . Otherwise kīrtana. Saṅkīrtana. Bahubhir militvā kīrtayeti saṅkīrtana. Bahu. Bahu means many; many combined together. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, combined together. All nations, all persons, they should combine together. There is hope in our Society, combination. There are Hindus; there are Muslims; there are Christians; *there are black, white. Combine them. That looks very beautiful, just like combination of many flowers. There is black flower also. It looks nice, very nice. Each and every flower take alone, it is not beautiful, but when they are combined together, it looks very beautiful. It is attractive. And that is wanted. Because from the spiritual platform we are all working. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Spiritual platform, every one of us, we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. So where is the competition between one servant with another? There is . . . even there is competition, the center is Kṛṣṇa—"Who can serve more?" Therefore that competition is very welcome, because there is no personal interest. Everyone is trying how to serve Kṛṣṇa more. That is wanted. The competition is there in his real form and perverted form. In the real form Kṛṣṇa is the center, and the perverted form, I am the center. I compete with you to satisfy my senses more. What is called? Heliocentric or . . .? Egocentric. Egocentric, yes. This is egocentric. *It should be Kṛṣṇa*-centric. Yes, then it is perfect. The competition must remain. The others, they say: "Why competition? Make it zero." That is imperfect. But competition to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is reality. *I found the verse. It's in " Ohe Vaiṣṇava Ṭhākura ." Ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo, hari*-nāma-saṅkīrtane. Yes, yes, not this verse. What is the meaning? Meaning is, "I do not find the strength to carry on alone the saṅkīrtana of the holy name of Hari. Please bless me by giving me just one drop of faith with which one can attain the great treasure of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa." So nobody is powerful alone. In Kṛṣṇa's service also, combine together. That is wanted. I think there is no question of being alone anywhere, because the guru is always with one. Yes, that is the ideal. Jaya Prabhupāda. Guru is also depending, and combination means I depend on you, you depend on me, that's all. That is combination. That's all. So, prasādam ? Now we are fasting. We are fasting. In the evening there will be prasādam . Arrangement is being made for? You are taking very nice care of us here, Prabhupāda. Jaya! Haribol! Next year it will be very nice. Our these rooms will be complete. I think this year also, not very much inconvenience. Not at all. *In Bengali there is a proverb, "If you are good men, then you can accommodate yourself lying in a leaf of the tamarind." You know the tamarind leaf? That is the smallest leaf of the tree. Big tree, and the leaf is very small. Yodi hao sujan, tetul patay na*-jan. (If people have a good relationship then in a tamarind life, nine people can stay together.) And just contrary to that. These are American tape recorder or Japanese? Japanese. All right. Jaya Prabhupāda! (offer obeisances) Take this apple and cut into pieces. Prabhupāda ki jaya! *Hare Kṛṣṇa. All glories to the saṅkīrtana party, Rādhā*-Dāmodara. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Jaya . Prabhupāda, we signed only the two top checks. The rest we left blank so you can do whatever you want. You can fill in whatever you want on the inside. That is good. (end) Conversation in Bengali -- March 22, 1976, Mayapur (Conversation in Bengali) Edit in progress . . . (translated from Bengali) (Bengali) (Bengali) Conversation in Bengali -- March 22, 1976, Mayapur (Conversation in Bengali) Edit in progress . . . (translated from Bengali) (Bengali) (Bengali) Conversation -- March 24, 1976, Calcutta *(at Radha*-Govinda Mandir) *Ami . . . meye der ektu asubidha hoy. (I . . . girls are a little inconvenienced.) This Rādhā*-Govinda Deity is very old Deity of the Mullik family. I think not less than two hundred years ago this Deity was established by the mother of Kashinath Mullik. I think you might have heard, another Kashi . . . original Kashinath Mullik. I think his father's name was Gaura Mohan Mullik. Am I right? Citra Dasi. *Citra Dasi. No. No, Kashinath Mullik's father? So gradually this whole quarters belonged to this Mullik family. Still in front of this temple there is Gangara building. That is also the property of Rādhā*-Govinda. And as I have shown in coming, our house was just behind the present Govinda Bhavan. And we had the opportunity of seeing this Rādhā-Govinda from very childhood. When I was three or four years old I used to visit this Rādhā-Govinda daily. *Jaya Rādhā*-Govinda! Jaya Prabhupāda. *And that is the inspiration of my devotional life. Then I asked my father that, "Give me Rādhā-Govinda Deity, I shall worship." So my father was also Vaiṣṇava. He gave me small Rādhā-Govinda Deity. I was worshiping in my house. Whatever I was eating, I was offering, and I was following the ceremonies of this Rādhā-Govinda with my small Deity. That Deity is still existing. I have given to my sister. So then I introduced Ratha-yātrā. So I . . . my Ratha-yātrā was being performed very gloriously. My father used to spend money. In those days ten rupees, twenty rupees was sufficient. I hired one kīrtana party, and a small friends, they . . . I think the brother of the present generation, and there was another De family here, so we performed this Ratha-yātrā ceremony. According to our children's imagination, it was very gorgeous. So I think our present Manmohan . . . his name is? Babur baba? Dada masai? (Father or babu? The grandfather?) Gopishvara Mullik. That Gopishvara Mullik was my father's friend. So he was criticizing my father that, "You are performing Ratha-yātrā ceremony and you are not inviting us." (laughter) So my father said, "That is children's play. What shall I invite you? You are very big man." So, "Oh, so you are avoiding. In the name of children you are avoiding us." On the whole, this Ratha-yātrā festival was very gorgeously . . . then imitating me, the other, my brother like, Kangalu, he also introduced Ratha-yātrā. And . . . Kangalu. Hya, (Yes,) So all of them introduced Ratha-yātrā, and the destination was this Ṭhākurbari, from there. So practically what I am doing now, the same thing, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. I am not doing anything else. You know very well. We are now performing Ratha-yātrā ceremony practically in all big cities of the world: in San Francisco, in . . . Philadelphia. Philadelphia, London . . . Melbourne. Melbourne, Australia . . . Paris. *Paris. So the same thing, the same Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship temples and same Ratha-yātrā, in a bigger scale. But the same thing was begun as play from this quarter, this Ṭhākurbari. Year 1970. Sattor sale, suru korlen ekhane. (In the year 1970, you have started here.) Na, na. (No, no.) I began my . . . I think from 1904 or '5, from my very childhood. Oh, childhood. Yes. At that time perhaps you were not born. (laughter) What is your age now? What is the birth of date? *Fifty*-five. *Fifty*-five. That means in 1920 you were born? Yes. *So anyway, this Ṭhākurbari, Rādhā-Govindajī, is my life. That is the beginning of my this spiritual life. And after so many years, still Rādhā-Govindajī has dragged me. So it is His kindness. So the beginning was the same thing—worship of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. That is I am doing in a bigger scale and a wider scale all over the world. So it is nothing new. So in the one sense, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sanjāyate ( BG 6.41). So although I was not belonging to this family . . . or perhaps originally we belonged to this family, because they are also De, we are De, but practically I was born in this family, and śucīnāṁ śrīmatām. And my father was a very pure Vaiṣṇava. So these opportunities we got; *now it is developed in a wider scale. It is all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement, maybe from my previous life. But you are cooperating, you American and European, so we are spreading the mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, this mission, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa mission it is practically. Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya, rādhā*-kṛṣṇa nahe anya (Śrī Guru-paramparā, text 6). Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is combination of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. *Rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir asmād (CC Adi 1.5). Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, the same Absolute Truth. Rādhārāṇī is the pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa wants to enjoy, He expands His pleasure potency in the form of Rādhārāṇī. And when He wants to spread the loving affairs of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, He takes the form of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and very kindly He gives the love of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has offered Him obeisances, namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). To understand Kṛṣṇa, it takes long, long duration of life. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). And to understand the love of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, it is not so easy thing. But by the grace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu we are understanding kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te . So it is now spreading all over the world. So this is . . . about this movement it may be this Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā-Govinda Deity is the . . . what is called? Inspiration? Inspiration. So you are all fortunate that you have come here. So let us offer our obeisances. Jaya Prabhupāda! (break) (in car) Those Deities are very nicely looked after, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Eh? The Deities. Oh. They are very nicely cared for. Oh, yes. This is my inspiration, this Deity. Should we have some program with these Mulliks sometimes? Visit? No, no. Our house was here. I am coming almost daily, on every moment. I was playing here. They were all my playmates. The whole this, from that street to this street, that was our house, home. Here is the pharmacy, that Kailash Pharmacy. That was very old. Our limit was coming up to this road and up to that Chitpur Road. Your father would not let you go any farther than this? *In those days who cared for the father? We were coming and . . . it was not so congested. There was a riot, Hindu*-Muslim riot. This quarter is Muslim quarter. Oh, in 1911 that was a dangerous day. Perhaps I would have been killed. Riot. Very big riot. This was my school here, this building. This was my school. And college was Scottish Churches. In this ground we used to play football. Yes. (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You used to take Jagannātha right through the streets? Yes. How far would you carry Jagannātha? *From our house to this Ṭhākurbari, Rādhā*-Govinda's, coming and going with procession of children and khola, karatāla and everything. Prasādam distribution, everything was there. My father used to encourage. And in those days if my father would spend twenty-five rupees, it was a great festival. Why not? In those days, fifty, sixty years ago, the money value was at least twenty times. So if my father was spending at that time twenty rupees, now it is at least four hundred rupees. So for a children's play four hundred rupees is not a small amount. At least fifty dollars in American. Yes. So my father used to pay. You hired a saṅkīrtana party? Yes. Only two rupees. That's all. Our young children are very fortunate also. Hmm? Our young children. Oh, yes. Yes. Very fortunate. That a small child, he'll take little grain of prasādam . He will not touch the big halavā . As soon as I'll give him a little grain, he'll take. Very nice. (break) (much traffic noise) . . . travel on a coach like this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Hmm? Yes, in our childhood. Not so bad. At that time it was not so bad. In 1925 I purchased one Buick car. In our childhood days there was no electricity, and there was no motorcar. No. The tram car was drawn by horses in Calcutta. (break) . . . quarter where our temple is situated. This is the best . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- March 24, 1976, Calcutta *(at Radha*-Govinda Mandir) *Ami . . . meye der ektu asubidha hoy. (I . . . girls are a little inconvenienced.) This Rādhā*-Govinda Deity is very old Deity of the Mullik family. I think not less than two hundred years ago this Deity was established by the mother of Kashinath Mullik. I think you might have heard, another Kashi . . . original Kashinath Mullik. I think his father's name was Gaura Mohan Mullik. Am I right? Citra Dasi. *Citra Dasi. No. No, Kashinath Mullik's father? So gradually this whole quarters belonged to this Mullik family. Still in front of this temple there is Gangara building. That is also the property of Rādhā*-Govinda. And as I have shown in coming, our house was just behind the present Govinda Bhavan. And we had the opportunity of seeing this Rādhā-Govinda from very childhood. When I was three or four years old I used to visit this Rādhā-Govinda daily. *Jaya Rādhā*-Govinda! Jaya Prabhupāda. *And that is the inspiration of my devotional life. Then I asked my father that, "Give me Rādhā-Govinda Deity, I shall worship." So my father was also Vaiṣṇava. He gave me small Rādhā-Govinda Deity. I was worshiping in my house. Whatever I was eating, I was offering, and I was following the ceremonies of this Rādhā-Govinda with my small Deity. That Deity is still existing. I have given to my sister. So then I introduced Ratha-yātrā. So I . . . my Ratha-yātrā was being performed very gloriously. My father used to spend money. In those days ten rupees, twenty rupees was sufficient. I hired one kīrtana party, and a small friends, they . . . I think the brother of the present generation, and there was another De family here, so we performed this Ratha-yātrā ceremony. According to our children's imagination, it was very gorgeous. So I think our present Manmohan . . . his name is? Babur baba? Dada masai? (Father or babu? The grandfather?) Gopishvara Mullik. That Gopishvara Mullik was my father's friend. So he was criticizing my father that, "You are performing Ratha-yātrā ceremony and you are not inviting us." (laughter) So my father said, "That is children's play. What shall I invite you? You are very big man." So, "Oh, so you are avoiding. In the name of children you are avoiding us." On the whole, this Ratha-yātrā festival was very gorgeously . . . then imitating me, the other, my brother like, Kangalu, he also introduced Ratha-yātrā. And . . . Kangalu. Hya, (Yes,) So all of them introduced Ratha-yātrā, and the destination was this Ṭhākurbari, from there. So practically what I am doing now, the same thing, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. I am not doing anything else. You know very well. We are now performing Ratha-yātrā ceremony practically in all big cities of the world: in San Francisco, in . . . Philadelphia. Philadelphia, London . . . Melbourne. Melbourne, Australia . . . Paris. *Paris. So the same thing, the same Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship temples and same Ratha-yātrā, in a bigger scale. But the same thing was begun as play from this quarter, this Ṭhākurbari. Year 1970. Sattor sale, suru korlen ekhane. (In the year 1970, you have started here.) Na, na. (No, no.) I began my . . . I think from 1904 or '5, from my very childhood. Oh, childhood. Yes. At that time perhaps you were not born. (laughter) What is your age now? What is the birth of date? *Fifty*-five. *Fifty*-five. That means in 1920 you were born? Yes. *So anyway, this Ṭhākurbari, Rādhā-Govindajī, is my life. That is the beginning of my this spiritual life. And after so many years, still Rādhā-Govindajī has dragged me. So it is His kindness. So the beginning was the same thing—worship of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. That is I am doing in a bigger scale and a wider scale all over the world. So it is nothing new. So in the one sense, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sanjāyate ( BG 6.41). So although I was not belonging to this family . . . or perhaps originally we belonged to this family, because they are also De, we are De, but practically I was born in this family, and śucīnāṁ śrīmatām. And my father was a very pure Vaiṣṇava. So these opportunities we got; *now it is developed in a wider scale. It is all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement, maybe from my previous life. But you are cooperating, you American and European, so we are spreading the mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, this mission, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa mission it is practically. Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya, rādhā*-kṛṣṇa nahe anya (Śrī Guru-paramparā, text 6). Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is combination of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. *Rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir asmād (CC Adi 1.5). Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, the same Absolute Truth. Rādhārāṇī is the pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa wants to enjoy, He expands His pleasure potency in the form of Rādhārāṇī. And when He wants to spread the loving affairs of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, He takes the form of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and very kindly He gives the love of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has offered Him obeisances, namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). To understand Kṛṣṇa, it takes long, long duration of life. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). And to understand the love of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, it is not so easy thing. But by the grace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu we are understanding kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te . So it is now spreading all over the world. So this is . . . about this movement it may be this Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā-Govinda Deity is the . . . what is called? Inspiration? Inspiration. So you are all fortunate that you have come here. So let us offer our obeisances. Jaya Prabhupāda! (break) (in car) Those Deities are very nicely looked after, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Eh? The Deities. Oh. They are very nicely cared for. Oh, yes. This is my inspiration, this Deity. Should we have some program with these Mulliks sometimes? Visit? No, no. Our house was here. I am coming almost daily, on every moment. I was playing here. They were all my playmates. The whole this, from that street to this street, that was our house, home. Here is the pharmacy, that Kailash Pharmacy. That was very old. Our limit was coming up to this road and up to that Chitpur Road. Your father would not let you go any farther than this? *In those days who cared for the father? We were coming and . . . it was not so congested. There was a riot, Hindu*-Muslim riot. This quarter is Muslim quarter. Oh, in 1911 that was a dangerous day. Perhaps I would have been killed. Riot. Very big riot. This was my school here, this building. This was my school. And college was Scottish Churches. In this ground we used to play football. Yes. (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You used to take Jagannātha right through the streets? Yes. How far would you carry Jagannātha? *From our house to this Ṭhākurbari, Rādhā*-Govinda's, coming and going with procession of children and khola, karatāla and everything. Prasādam distribution, everything was there. My father used to encourage. And in those days if my father would spend twenty-five rupees, it was a great festival. Why not? In those days, fifty, sixty years ago, the money value was at least twenty times. So if my father was spending at that time twenty rupees, now it is at least four hundred rupees. So for a children's play four hundred rupees is not a small amount. At least fifty dollars in American. Yes. So my father used to pay. You hired a saṅkīrtana party? Yes. Only two rupees. That's all. Our young children are very fortunate also. Hmm? Our young children. Oh, yes. Yes. Very fortunate. That a small child, he'll take little grain of prasādam . He will not touch the big halavā . As soon as I'll give him a little grain, he'll take. Very nice. (break) (much traffic noise) . . . travel on a coach like this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Hmm? Yes, in our childhood. Not so bad. At that time it was not so bad. In 1925 I purchased one Buick car. In our childhood days there was no electricity, and there was no motorcar. No. The tram car was drawn by horses in Calcutta. (break) . . . quarter where our temple is situated. This is the best . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- March 25, 1976, Delhi *They make modernized meaning of Bhagavad*-gītā . That is insanity. Do you agree or . . . *What would you regard to be the essence of Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Bhagavad*-gītā means that there is God, and we are part and parcel of God. God is great, and we are very teeny, small, fragmental portion of God. In quality we and God are the same, just like a drop of ocean water is qualitatively the same as the big ocean. Beg your pardon? Qualitatively is the same. The drop of ocean water is salty, and the whole ocean is also salty. The salt taste is there. But the drop is never equal to the ocean. This is the difference. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś . . . (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). This is the Vedic . . . that He is also living entity as we are. So we many, plural number. "We" means living entities. We are many, and He is one. But He is also living entity. Now where is the difference? The difference is that He maintains the plural number living entities. He maintains the . . .? Plural, plural number. Plural. Plural. Living entities. And the plural number living entities are maintained by Him. In the past . . . I should start this way . . . this is the first press conference you are holding in Delhi, isn't it? You can come forward. . . . if we can finish this answer, if you don't mind. Okay. You said the plural number entities are being maintained by Him. Yes. Just like father, and he has got many children. So both of them are living entities, but the father maintains the children, and the children are maintained by God. One is maintaining, and others are being maintained. That means dependent. We are dependent on God, or Kṛṣṇa. But, sir, aren't we impure and He is pure? No, both of them are. The father . . . But then how do we . . . then why do we commit sins? God doesn't. Yes. Just like we are at the present moment in impure condition. That is material. Therefore the human form of life is a chance to be free from the impurity. But, sir, if we are drop of the same ocean, why should we be impure at all? No, no. We are pure constitutionally. Then from where does this impurity come? Yes. That is . . . just like your are healthy, but wherefrom the disease comes? You are not diseased now, but sometimes disease comes. Wherefrom it comes? So at the present moment we are in diseased condition. This has to be cured. Otherwise we are pure—as pure as God. Then what is the way to purity? *Yes, that is Bhagavad*-gītā . *You mean the mere recital of Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Not recite, to understand and to act. Prescription. Yes. That is the prescription. *The whole thing is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Which particular teachings do you find so uplifting and ennobling for a man? *You have read Bhagavad*-gītā ? Yes, I have . . . I mean, not so thoroughly, but I have in parts. So what is that question? Which part? Which particular teachings you think can purify a man? Because you said the salvation lies in practical teachings of *Gītā* . Yes. You have to revive your consciousness that you are part and parcel of God. And the part and parcel of God means to serve God. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body, but it is meant for serving my body. I ask the finger, "Come here"—it is serving me. "Come here", it is scratching. "Pick up the food. Give it to me", he is giving it. This is business of the finger. If the finger cannot carry out my order, then it is diseased. And if he immediately carries out order, then it is healthy. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, we must be ready to give service immediately. Then it is healthy condition. And if we do not, then it is māyā . We are serving. You are serving. Everyone is serving, because our constitution is to serve. Big, big leaders, they are also serving. Anyone you can see. The sun, he is serving. Exactly in the time it is rising, by the order of God. Exactly in time it is setting. So everyone is serving. Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya ( CC Adi 5.142): "Only master is God, and everyone is His servant." But the diseased condition is that when we do not serve God, we serve something else— māyā —and that is diseased condition. That is . . .? Diseased condition. Impure condition. At the present moment we have discovered so many services—national service, communal service, and this service, that service—but nobody is recommending service of God. This is the diseased condition. Therefore we are suffering. So what do you really mean by arousing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? What does it entail? *That means we have to serve Kṛṣṇa. We are serving now non*-Kṛṣṇa. Nothing is non-Kṛṣṇa. Something māyā . Just like dreaming. Dreaming, it is also activity. That is false activity. Excuse me, may I ask one question if I can, please. You said māyā or disease. Māyā is disease or māyā or many other ailments? By which . . . Māyā is a diseased condition. Māyā is a diseased condition or many other ailments under who the human beings are affected. Yes. Are these bad conditions or ailments not part and parcel of God? Yes. But you are suffering. You should admit. Just like a prison department is part and parcel of the government. But who is in the prison, he is suffering. That's a very good answer. That's a wonderful answer. Your Divine Grace, would your message be exactly the same for, say, a starving man in India and a Westerner who's got everything that a person needs? We say that not only in India, everyone, you'll starve, because you are rebellious to God consciousness. You must starve. That is the punishment. Just like anyone who is a criminal, he must be punished. That is the law of nature. So by that, I suppose one would presume that people in India have been most rebellious to God. Why India? Everywhere. Why you speak India? Because . . . When you speak of God, don't take India, or America or Europe. Everywhere. No. Because the number of starving men here is much larger. *You are starving on account of your economic condition being bad or . . . I cannot say anything. But they are also starving. You are poor by force, and they sometimes accept poverty voluntarily, just like the hippies. They have enough money. They are coming from very rich father and grandfather, but they lie down on the street, and the police comes and kick them, "Hey, get up! Get up!" Why? Why they have accepted this? So this kind of varieties we find everywhere—rich man, middle*-class man and poverty-stricken man. Don't think that it is in India. I am traveling all over the world. Swāmījī, what do you suggest to your disciples to arouse what you call Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness? Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the purificatory process. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . God is so kind. In this age . . . it is meant for every age. Especially this age, when we are so much fallen and so much suffering, and neither we are able to act very piously, therefore this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , if you chant, you gradually become purified. Then you come to your own consciousness. So how would you define sin? What is impurities, or to sin? You cannot understand impurities? *I mean, give any clear*-cut definition. Just like when you are diseased and the doctor gives you some vaccine and injection to cure you, to make you purified. Is it not? *No, but just like could there be any clear*-cut criterion, for example, to say that I have committed sin or I have not committed sin? What is sin? *Clear*-cut criterion is that we living entity, being part and parcel, we are as good as God. But when we are under the control of the material nature, that is our diseased condition. Same example: Just like you, as a good citizen, you are as good as Indira Gandhi. You are Indian; you have got all the rights. But if you become criminal, you put into the prison. So we are in the . . . conditioned state means no freedom. It is not clear? No, sir, I just wanted you to tell me some yardstick from which one could . . . But because you are suffering, that is the sign of impurity. Beg your pardon? Because you are suffering. Do you admit that you are suffering? Do you know this? Suffering means that there is some impurity. No, are you not suffering? Yes, everybody is. *That is diseased condition. Just like diseased con . . . when you have got fever—you are suffering—that is diseased condition. So long you are suffering, you must be aware of the fact that you are in diseased condition. Because you are part and parcel, there is no question of suffering. Sac*-cid-ānanda . . . But suffering may not necessarily be because of sin. It might be because of something else, you know? "Might be something," that is your sinful activities. That, "something" is some sinful activity. Now a poor man suffers of hunger. This is not sin if he doesn't get proper food or anything. Yes. Yes. But how you can help? You cannot help. Just like a prisoner in the . . . suffering in the prison house, you cannot help him. I may suffer because I have a cancer . . . No, first of all you try to understand. But cancer is not a sin, you know. Yes. Everything is sin. Disease means sin. Unless you commit sinful life, there is no question of suffering. I thought . . . but sin has some relation with . . . Sometimes the suffering is self brought and sometimes a suffering is brought without self, by nature. *Eh? No, no, that is wrong. Every suffering is brought by you—yourself. Just like if you are punished by the high*-court judge to be hanged, you don't make the high-court judge is the cause of your hanging. You made a situation—the high-court judge has given you the judgment that you must be hanged. Would you tell us something about the Vedic city which is being constructed in Māyāpur? He wants to know something about the Vedic city which is being constructed in Māyāpur. Yes, not Vedic city. Vedic planetarium. How you got this information? He had come to our temple earlier. He's already published one article in yesterday's paper. Which paper? This morning I have got. You must try to understand that we are suffering on account of our sinful activities. Sir, I am asking what is sinful activity. You do not know? I don't know. Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish. If you go on the street and it is, there is, "Keep to the left," as soon as you go to the right, you suffer. Is it not? Immediately you go to the court. Is it not suffering? No, no, just try to understand. No, sir, I just wanted to ask you . . . No, no, why wonder? You just try to understand this common sense, that as soon as you go to the street, if the indication is that you must keep your car on the left side, and as soon as you go to the right side, you become a criminal, immediately. You can say: "What is the wrong? The right side or wrong side, I am driving my car." But it is criminal, you know or not know. Ignorance of law is no excuse. So just similarly there is law of God. So as soon as you violate, you must suffer. You see? What is that law court? *That means you are so ignorant. You are so ignorant. The law of God, law is . . . God is personally speaking, "This is the law, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66)." This is the law. God is speaking personally, and you do not know? And you are advertising very expert in reading Bhagavad-gītā , and you do not know the law? This is going on. Big, big scholars, big, big monkey, they are reading Bhagavad-gītā three hundred times daily, but do not know what is law. This is going on. In Bengali there is a saying: "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." You know the monkey, big monkey, Hanumānjī. He jumped over. So ask any other monkey, "Can you jump?" Melancholy. (laughter) Similarly, big, big scholars of Bhagavad-gītā and do not know what is the law of God. This is going on. Big, big commentary, big, big book, but the law he does not know. Your Divine Grace, this is actually not very relevant to the press conference, but have you ever met people like the Sai Baba or Bala Yogeshwara or . . . Why shall I meet these nonsense? Why shall I meet? What is the business? Fools and rascals may meet them. Why shall I meet? What can I get from them? What is their special value? Tell me, why shall I meet? What is the business I have got to meet him? You are suggesting? No, I mean . . . No, no, why shall I meet? Why you expect like that, I shall meet? He just wanted to know if you have ever met them. They are also . . . No, no. Why he is . . .? Why he is asking this? What business I have got to meet with them? What shall I get from them? Just to discuss metaphysics. Yes. If I am taking lesson from Kṛṣṇa, why shall I take lesson from such bogus things? No, they have also been recognized as . . . Who recognized? Who recognized? . . . as exponent of Hindu thought and . . . No, no, who recognized? First of all, who recognized? No, they too have a following in the West. That is the defect. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They vote. Just like in big democratic country like America they voted Nixon to become president, and when they found that, "This man is a bogus," they again dragged him down. So this is going on. We vote somebody to the topmost position, and we see that he's a rascal. So therefore we do not advise. We say: "Just take lesson from Kṛṣṇa, who is recognized by everyone." That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't say: "Go to a bogus man and take instruction." We don't say. *May I interrupt? What Swāmīji has described in all the books—as it exists, no further contribution, no amendment, no interpretation. He has described all what has been written in Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad*-gītā , in its truest form. So no imitation, no representation, no interpretation. Swāmījī has described exactly as it happened. And that is being appreciated all over the world. All over the world that is being appreciated. *Swāmījī, could you please throw light on your four*-point regulation which you suggest to your disciples? *Yes. That is pious life. No illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication and no gambling. No . . .? *Gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. So if we want to know God, we must be free from sinful life. This is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If you want to be God conscious, then you must be free from all sinful activities. God is pure. If you want to approach God, then you must be pure. If you remain impure, you cannot understand. Swāmījī, do you think that there are some people in this country in thousands or maybe tens of thousands who are getting spiritual solace from, say, people like Sai Baba or any of these other people who have interpreted the *Vedas* or who have followers all over the country? Do you think these followers are getting some amount of spiritual solace? No, no. First of all, do you know what Sai Baba is preaching? Hmm? Do you know? No. Then how you are asking on behalf of Sai Baba? No, just like that. Just like . . . I am just going . . . I mean, I am very far removed from these . . . No, no, why you are interested? Twice, thrice you have said Sai Baba. *No, anybody. Because he is among the better*-known people. I, I am, I have nothing to do with. *So, but better*-known . . . It could be someone like, say, the Bala Yogeshwara, who also got some kind of following there. *That is . . . that has spoiled our India's Vedic culture. Everyone has invented some ways, and they have misled the general people, people, followers. That is the misfortune of modern India. Yes. The standard instruction is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . They do not care to know it. They want to know about the greatness of Bala Yogi, Sai Baba, this bābā , that bābā . That is their misfortune. They give up the real instruction, Bhagavad-gītā , which is accepted by the great ācāryas —Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu—and all over the world, they are not interested to know Bhagavad-gītā , they are interested to know about Sai Baba. Just see the misfortune. But what would you attribute this to? What would you attribute this to? What is the cause of this? Cause of this? One simple cause is they have become unfortunate. They give up the real thing, and they accept the imitation. So that is their misfortune. If there are two shops, everyone knows, "Here is real gold, and here is imitation gold." And if you go to purchase imitation gold, that is his misfortune. What is it in your movement which has appealed to the Western world? I believe you have a sizable following in . . . Yes, because we are supplying real gold. We are giving real gold. We are not supplying imitation gold. That is the credit. If you supply imitation thing, it may go for some time, but it will not endure. So many svāmīs and yogīs go there, but just these . . . ask these American boys. They don't care for them. No, but even Mahesh Yogi has a considerable following in America and a lot of Western countries. No . . . (indistinct) Amongst housewives. No. Now it is going down, and the followers, they have . . . they will not follow any regulative principles. They will not surrender. Simply . . . they have no actual disciples who are following principles. Are we going to compare because of the larger following? Do you compare the relative and the unrelative? This is the . . . I didn't meant to compare Swāmījī's teachings with that of Mahesh Yogi's, but I . . . No, how many Mahesh Yogi has brought, disciples like this? Practical, come, come, practical point. Have you seen in India Mahesh Yogi's disciples like . . .? Well, whenever he comes to Delhi he brings two, three jumbo jets full of disciples. This is my answer. Thousands of them are working here on my behalf. Just see their character and behavior. Swāmījī, may I say something? A magician can create many charismas. But God also create charismas. Who will you compare? The magician charismas or the God's charisma? This is the difference. A magician can also sometimes impress upon people that he has godly powers, but are they the real godly powers as against real godly powers? This is the difference. I have been at least thirty times to America, talked to lot of people. They say if you want to go really for attainment of your soul, you go to ISKCON. Even Mahesh Yogi says. Yes. And if you want to attain your bodily strength . . . Yes, actually. One of his secretaries came to us. One of his secretaries, he asked that, "I want real knowledge of God." He said: "Then you go to ISKCON." That's true. And if you want blissful, pleasureful things, go to either Mahesh Yogi or go to Bala Hathayogi. This is what has been . . . this is what has been impressed upon by knowledgeable people in America. And at least I can say with authority that I have talked with lot of people in America. They say that you can chant some mantra and go on with your sinful life. But the practical result is that people's lives remain the same. They may simply divert themselves from their suffering temporarily. But in reality their condition of life is the same. They're still in a miserable condition of life, whereas Prabhupāda is actually lifting us out of the well of misery to the atmosphere of blissfulness. That Mahesh Yogi advertises in the paper, "TM, you don't require any religion, don't require to follow any principles," and so on, so on. But I have got so many strictures—still, they do not go to him—they come to me. He has no stricture, but I have got so many stricture. And it is the report of the Draft Department that, "Why the young men come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? What is the facility?" So they studied. So they reported, "There is no facility, simply rigidity. Still they go there." (laughter) Do you have any plans of propagating your movement in India? Because you have been for too long working in the West, and I believe India is not getting the benefit of your teaching and your guidance. *India is so misguided that it will take some time to come. Because whatever I . . . even if you speak to India, what I shall speak? I'll speak Bhagavad*-gītā . The Bhagavad-gītā was already there, still already there. But India's misfortune is they are so neglectful, they don't take care of Bhagavad-gītā . They'll bring, "Why not Sai Baba? Why not this bābā ? Why not that bābā ?" That is the difficulty. No, I wanted to ask . . . They have become overintelligent. Not simple intelligent but overintelligent. That is . . . they are not overintelligent. That is the, I mean, facility for them. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. That is in the śāstra , in the *Vedas* , in everywhere. But you won't believe it. You'll say: "Why Kṛṣṇa Supreme God? Another . . . here is God. Here is God." Hundreds and thousands of Gods you'll bring. That is the difficulty. No, do you plan to propagate your message in India? *Yes, certainly I plan, but the difficulty is that who is going to accept? The philosophy is already there. Bhagavad*-gītā is already, but who is hearing to take it? Even if I speak, I shall speak, "Read Bhagavad-gītā ," but who will take it? That is the difficulty. They will bring another competition. What probably he's asking is do we have any positive plans . . . For spreading the movement in India. We have got. We have already planned. That has been seen in Māyāpur. That has been . . . in Bombay there's a very big temple, we are building, with a center. In . . . (indistinct) . . . Vṛndāvana . . . My point is that what I am speaking, it is not unknown to India, but they are so misfortunate that they don't take it. That is the difficulty. So, so unfortunate they have become that they don't take it. What shall I speak in India? The same thing. So that is all the more reason why your work is needed. *No, we are doing. As far as possible, we have got center. The people are so overintelligent, don't take it. "Ah, what Hare Kṛṣṇa? We have heard it. Ah, we have seen Bhagavad*-gītā ." That is . . . if you become neglectful, that is the greatest offense. So India is offender. It is India's philosophy, what I am preaching others. India doesn't require to be known to be aware. It is . . . they already know it, but they won't take it. They have become so unfortunate. That is the difficulty. If you don't take it, then how you'll become rich? Suppose if I give you, "Take this one thousand dollars." But if you don't take it, then what benefit will be there? India's position is like that. Would you be opening certain schools in India on gurukula pattern? Yes, we are trying, but the difficulty, India, is that they are very, very neglectful. Is the government discouraging in certain . . . There is no question of government or . . . the government is people's men. So if you are . . . we are ourselves fools and rascals, the government will also be a set of fools and rascals. And if you are intelligent, the government will be intelligent. Because now it is democracy. You select some men. So don't blame government. You are government. If you are fools, the government are fools. If you are intelligent, the government is intelligent. It is up to you to change; then everything will be all right. Swāmījī, excuse me, is there any special significance of keeping this bead hidden from the public? *Yes, just to follow Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā says, man-manā bhava mad bhaktaḥ : "Always think of Me." So we are thinking, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." No, I mean, you are keeping it wrapped in a piece of cloth. That bead. Why? The bead is pure, so just to keep it aloof from the dust. You see? Just like we keep this drinking water covered. Why? This is common sense. Just to keep it pure. Yes. Pure it is, but still, it is our duty not to treat ordinarily. Are your disciples supposed to chant the mantra all the time? Yes. All my disciple is chanting. Are they supposed to chant the mantra throughout the day? Oh, yes. All the time? Just like I am talking with you, and as soon as talking stops, I am . . . my hand is going, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā . Is it possible to talk and also to chant the mantra at the same time? Yes. That requires practice. That requires practice. Just like woman is cooking and (s)he is also talking. It does not mean the cooking is going bad. It is practice. Swāmījī, does this chanting of mantra brings purity or following of your four instructions or regulations which you have told, or both? *Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. It purifies the heart, yes, the core of the heart. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). This is the effect of chanting. Because everything we are doing on account of dirty heart, so everything is dirty. So if you purify your heart, then everything becomes clear. How long does it take to purify ourself? It takes . . . just like if the dirty things are very fixed up, it takes little more time. Otherwise it takes little time. Swāmījī, I believe you'll be having certain industries for export also in Māyāpur. May I know if they will be manned by disciples, and if so, do you think that they would be in a much better position to look after these big gośālās and other things than, say, other people would be? *If you follow Bhagavad*-gītā , then everything will be followed very nicely. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). And go-rakṣya , this is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā . So if you follow Bhagavad-gītā , then naturally go-rakṣya will be there. And if you read Bhagavad-gītā for some political reason, then slaughterhouse go on. That's all. Instead of go-rakṣya , go-killing. This is going on. Every politician is reading Bhagavad-gītā , but go-rakṣya . . . instead of go-rakṣya , go-hatya . This is going on—no go-rakṣya , but go-hatya . This is going on. Who cares for Kṛṣṇa? This is the misfortune of India. Kṛṣṇa spoke in India, in Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa appeared in India, but Indian people are neglecting. Therefore I say it is a misfortune. It is your own thing. You are neglecting it. So you want to encourage that. *Yes. I want that . . . Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken in India. Every Indian should take Bhagavad-gītā very seriously. Then India's fortune will change. But they have rejected Bhagavad-gītā , and they are making their own imagination as the goal of life. So how they will be happy? If you have your father's property, you squander it and then you beg from others, "Give me some money," then how much unfortunate you are, just see. Your father's property, you squandered it. Then you become a beggar and beg from others, "Give me some money, sir." So how much unfortunate you are, just imagine. When you visited the Soviet Union, Swāmījī, did you find the atmosphere worse than it is in Western countries, say? Are the people . . . Everywhere the people are very good, but the leaders are bad. Did you meet any of them? No. Yes. I talked with one of the best leaders, Professor Kotovsky. He is the professor of Indology. I talked with him. I have studied. The people are generally very good. But did you hold any meetings or anything? Yes. Were they receptive to what you . . . Yes. I was invited by Professor Kotovsky to talk with him. On my way to Europe I stayed there. So I have studied the people. They are very good, as our Indian people, innocent masses, they are also like that. But they are being sophisticated by their new philosophy, Communism, artificial thing. But they are not happy. They are being forced to accept a philosophy. People are . . . I have seen from their face. They look unhappy. Everything dependent on government. You have to accept. You cannot select your food even. Whatever nonsense things the government will supply, you have to accept, even you don't like it. And for us it was a great difficulty. We could not get rice, could not get flour, neither fruit. Only milk is available, and flesh, as much as you like. So on the whole it was artificial, and people are not happy. Swāmījī, why do you prohibit this tea or coffee also for your disciples? Because it is sinful. It is sinful? Yes. Why should you eat meat? What about onions and . . .? Yes, onions is also very agitating. Sir, why are they sinful? Why are they sinful? What sinful? Why is it sinful to take tea or coffee? Because you get intoxication. If you are habituated to take tea, as soon as in your time you don't take, you'll become mad. You mean this dependency is bad . . . Yes, why should we . . .? . . . or this tea itself is bad? If your mind is agitated for something, then you become dependent on that thing. That is the position. Those who are taking tea, they have become so much dependent on tea. But if I start talking milk I will be equally dependent on milk, sir. No, no. No, milk will not. Milk, you take little milk once; that will satisfy. No, what he says that if he starts taking milk regularly, he'll become dependent. He'll become . . . So that much dependent, you must eat something. But you must eat something which is favorable for you. Eatable—everything is eatable. The stool is also eatable. That does not mean you, human being, you go to eat stool. That is meant for the pigs, hogs. You are not hogs and pigs. But if you become . . . if you try to become pigs and hog, then you can become. No discrimination of food means pigs and hogs. And God will give chance to become a hog next life. Sir, most of your disciples have their heads shaven. But if you admit this, that after this life you have to accept another body. Do you accept this? Eh? I do, sir. *Then that body offered to you, is it in your hand? Suppose the next life you are offered a pig's body. Can you say: "No, no, I don't want it"? That is the statement of Bhagavad*-gītā : tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). But how to give up, sir? Eh? How to give up. What is give up? How to give up this tea and coffee to which we are so much habituated? That they have given up. Join the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Just see the example, how they are . . . ask them. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you lose your hankering for everything else. Really? Yes. The higher taste. That is the taste of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra ca (SB 11.2.42). As soon as you advance in devotion, you become detestful to the all material enjoyment. Swāmījī, may I inquire from which class of society people generally come to you in the States? Hmm? From which class of society in the United Sates do most of your disciples come? You can ask them. I do not know. All classes. Many educated people as well as people from all different classes, all racial backgrounds. No, no. In America, who is uneducated? Yes, all coming from very nice families, the majority, education. Many, many of them coming from very wealthy families. Now, if you should take good family means wealthy family, then America, there is no poor family. There is no question of poverty. So how do you distinguish that he's coming from good family, he's coming from bad family? Poverty is unknown to them. Nobody is uneducated. Then how you distinguish who is bad and who is good? Everyone is good—unless he voluntarily becomes bad, hippie. Otherwise everyone is coming from very good family, rich family, educated family. Do you have a large number of American Negroes in your movement, Swāmījī? Not large number, but there are. Is there any reason why that is so? That is . . . there is reason. They are not very much cultured. Do you have women followers also in this movement? Yes. America, men and women have got equal rights. Sir, whom do you find more responsive to your movement, women or men? Everyone. Everyone. They are very fortunate. And I am very much indebted to them because they have helped me. Yes. Helped in what sense? Helped in cooperation. Without their cooperation . . . now, these books I am writing surely, but they are pushing on, even facing great danger. They are helping me in my translating work, in typing, in composing, in printing. Have you got that film, how they are doing? No. Have you got that film? That book film? I don't have the projector here, Prabhupāda. That suitcase is not here. So if we invite them to see it, that how they are helping efficiently with latest machine . . . therefore it has been possible. Otherwise, while in India with great hardship I could publish three books only. They are very beautifully printed. Where did the money come from to print such lavish editions of your books? The money comes . . . we are selling books daily. No, but initially you do require a . . . Eh? Initially it requires some money to print such a lavish book. Initially I took some books from here. They are not so nicely printed, but still, I sold them. Then gradually increased. They paid the money, and then . . . they made contributions. One of my student, he first, Jayānanda, he . . . no, first paid me . . . he, he has first paid me five thousand dollars. Then Brahmānanda paid me five thousand dollars. In this way gradually money came. Swāmījī, you write originally in English, or these books are being translated from some other language into English for you? No, translated, but I give my purport. That is . . . they like very much. Present the purport in such a way they can understand it. The original verse is there, but they are explained by me. Give some critical comments and explanations. Yes. That they like. Does that mean, Swāmījī, that yours is a cultural and educational movement rather than a personal cult. A cultural and educational movement rather than a personal cult. *Yes, it is cultural movement, educational movement. It is not so*-called religious movement. Religious movement is sentiment. Generally, religion is taken as a kind of faith but it is not a kind of faith. In . . . I think, in South America that Indian man was asking that, "It is the Hindu faith?" Oh, in South Africa. He was asking, "Is this Hindu faith?" "This cult or that cult?" *So just see. He was Hindu gentleman, belonging to the Ārya*-samāj. So three times he said: "Is it Hindu faith?" And what do you mean by Hindu faith? When Kṛṣṇa said, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), is it meant for the Hindus that a child becomes . . . a baby becomes a child, a child becomes a boy, a boy becomes a young man, a young man becomes a old man, and the old man dies, changes this body? Is it meant for the Hindus? The Muhammadans do not become old men or young men? The Christians don't become old men? *But such fools there are that Bhagavad*-gītā is speaking, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13)—"It is meant for the Hindus." Just see. Such fools there are. And Kṛṣṇa said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "If you have got enough food grains, then all the living entities are satisfied." Is it meant for the Hindus? So this is going on, "This is Hindu scripture." What do you mean by Hindu scripture? Huh? So they are interpreting in their own way. So Kṛṣṇa is not for the Hindus or the Mussulmans or Christians. He is God. He is everyone. He is for everyone. And it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , sarva-yonīṣu kaunteya mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ (BG 14.4): "In all species of life, as many forms of life are there, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ , I am the seed-giving father of all of them." So where is the question of Hindus? This is going on. Does it ever happen, Swāmījī, that some disciples of yours may disagree with you on spiritual matters? No. *Unless he is a fool. (laughter) Unless he's damn fool, they do not. (laughter) If he's sane and sober, open*-hearted, then he will agree. Not only Hindus. We have got so many Muhammadans also. So unless one is open-minded, sane, intelligent, they cannot understand. Therefore I say the Indians are becoming insane. By the influence of so many rascals they are becoming insane. So that has to be rectified. But insanity is prevailing all over the world, but not so much insanity as in India, that they are rejecting their own things. This is the greatest insanity. Why they are rejecting Bhagavad-gītā ? What is the reason? Tell me, you. Because of Hindus suffer from basic economic instability. Eh? Economic instability. *Economic? Then why don't you accept the economic program given by Bhagavad*-gītā ? Why don't you accept? If you would elaborate on that, I would be very much interested. *Well, that is . . . it is . . . it is known to everyone. Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Anna. Anna means food grains, eatables. You must produce sufficient food grains. Why you are producing tire tube instead of food grains? And just entering your Delhi from Vṛndāvana, a big Goodyear factory, very big factory. You are producing tire tube, then iron, Goodyear and this and that. Where is food grain? And both sides, the field is vacant. Nobody is going to grow food grain. Then why you'll not starve? It is your fault. You are producing tire tube and iron instrument. You are neglecting agriculture. Then why you shall not suffer for want of food grain? And you are pleading, "Indians are starving." Why shall not starve if they do not follow Bhagavad*-gītā ? They are thinking, "By increasing industry in America . . ." They have got industry, at the same time food grains also. But you are taking to industry without taking care of growing food grains. *Swāmījī, I would like to know that I feel that your Society, the Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness Society, has a very, very stable economy, and that it is self*-sufficient in itself. Is that so? Speak a little louder. *Is the Hare Kṛṣṇa Society self*-sufficient? Does it have a . . . he understands that our Society has a very stable economy. Is it self-sufficient, our own Hare Kṛṣṇa Society? *So don't you think that we are self*-sufficient? We are feeding at least ten thousand devotees daily, but we have no fixed income. They don't have any fixed income. No. None of us have any fixed income, but we are traveling all over the world—New York, London, Calcutta. It is just like going from this quarter to that quarter. Our men are moving like that. Immediately coming, one dozen men from Germany, one dozen from London, and immediately going. We are paying so much money to the airplanes, and we have got so many centers. So how it is going on? Kṛṣṇa's grace. We depend on Kṛṣṇa. Our income, daily collection, is not less than one lakh of rupees, and we are spending everything. One lakh daily? That is minimum. Sometimes we collect five lakhs daily. What is the way you go about collecting money? *That book*-selling. Only . . . books are the only source of your . . . That's it. This question was raised in the Parliament that, "Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they are fabulously rich. Where they get their money?" And the Parliament answer was "They get their money by selling literature." That means the devotees, Swāmījī, do not contribute to the . . . No, no, no. Not the devotees purchase. They publish. Those who are intelligent public, they purchase. They purchase. Right. But do the devotees contribute in any way? *Yes. They are contributing their life. We don't get any such life*-sacrificing Indians. These educated boys, rich men's son, they have sacrificed everything for me. And where is Indian? Swāmījī, do you have certain farms also in America, gośālā ? Yes. Not only one, many. What else do you have over there besides gurukula schools and things? We produce our own milk. In New Vrindavan we are producing . . . you are Nava Bharata Times ? You are, any of you, Nava Bharata Times ? Is there any representative, Nava . . . ? No. Your representative went to New Vrindavan, and he published in the November 1974, I think. Yes, '74. *Yes, they published one big article, Nava Bharata Time , and the heading was, Adhyatmikta ka jamuna aur doodh*-dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (The Yamuna of spirituality and the river of milk and curd is flowing.) (laughter) This was the heading. Actually they gave the photograph of our Deity and activities, everything. You can find out November issue of Nava Bharata in 1974. But you've virtually given up India as a dead loss, Swāmījī. Eh? You've given up India as a dead loss, isn't it, in the sense . . . Dead loss? Dead loss . . . but the leaders are dead loss. Misleaders. They have given up their own culture, and they are trying to imitate others. Swāmījī, when there was discussion in Parliament about the fabulous money that the movement has, Society has, then who provided the answers? The Home Member. The Minister. Yes. We have a copy of this in Bombay, the question number and . . . it was about two, three years ago. They must have done intensive research and things like that. The other member, they raised the question. They brought the charges that the Americans are CIA. What is that? CIA, or not? What is? Yes. CIA. *The CIA have become Vaiṣṇava and given up meat*-eating and dancing with me, and they have no other means. (laughter) Just see how foolish question it is. The CIA men have come to me for inquiry. This question, rascal questions, are put. Such unfortunate insanity is prevailing in India. (laughter) The American CIA, they have come to me. Just see. Swāmījī, would you print that it is legitimate for the government to say that certain undesirable . . . Don't bring in government now. It is emergency. (laughter) Put ordinary question. Don't bring in government. No, but have you been troubled by any undesirable elements? *No, no. We are clean. Why shall we be . . .? But if you want to put us in trouble, you can do it. We are preaching . . . our signboard is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why do you misunderstand? And we are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. You have got our book. Still if you misunderstand, that is our misfortune. What can I do? Thank you very much indeed, Swāmījī. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Would you like to have a look at some of our books? We have some refreshments also if you want. (end) Conversation -- March 25, 1976, Delhi *They make modernized meaning of Bhagavad*-gītā . That is insanity. Do you agree or . . . *What would you regard to be the essence of Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Bhagavad*-gītā means that there is God, and we are part and parcel of God. God is great, and we are very teeny, small, fragmental portion of God. In quality we and God are the same, just like a drop of ocean water is qualitatively the same as the big ocean. Beg your pardon? Qualitatively is the same. The drop of ocean water is salty, and the whole ocean is also salty. The salt taste is there. But the drop is never equal to the ocean. This is the difference. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś . . . (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). This is the Vedic . . . that He is also living entity as we are. So we many, plural number. "We" means living entities. We are many, and He is one. But He is also living entity. Now where is the difference? The difference is that He maintains the plural number living entities. He maintains the . . .? Plural, plural number. Plural. Plural. Living entities. And the plural number living entities are maintained by Him. In the past . . . I should start this way . . . this is the first press conference you are holding in Delhi, isn't it? You can come forward. . . . if we can finish this answer, if you don't mind. Okay. You said the plural number entities are being maintained by Him. Yes. Just like father, and he has got many children. So both of them are living entities, but the father maintains the children, and the children are maintained by God. One is maintaining, and others are being maintained. That means dependent. We are dependent on God, or Kṛṣṇa. But, sir, aren't we impure and He is pure? No, both of them are. The father . . . But then how do we . . . then why do we commit sins? God doesn't. Yes. Just like we are at the present moment in impure condition. That is material. Therefore the human form of life is a chance to be free from the impurity. But, sir, if we are drop of the same ocean, why should we be impure at all? No, no. We are pure constitutionally. Then from where does this impurity come? Yes. That is . . . just like your are healthy, but wherefrom the disease comes? You are not diseased now, but sometimes disease comes. Wherefrom it comes? So at the present moment we are in diseased condition. This has to be cured. Otherwise we are pure—as pure as God. Then what is the way to purity? *Yes, that is Bhagavad*-gītā . *You mean the mere recital of Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Not recite, to understand and to act. Prescription. Yes. That is the prescription. *The whole thing is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Which particular teachings do you find so uplifting and ennobling for a man? *You have read Bhagavad*-gītā ? Yes, I have . . . I mean, not so thoroughly, but I have in parts. So what is that question? Which part? Which particular teachings you think can purify a man? Because you said the salvation lies in practical teachings of *Gītā* . Yes. You have to revive your consciousness that you are part and parcel of God. And the part and parcel of God means to serve God. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body, but it is meant for serving my body. I ask the finger, "Come here"—it is serving me. "Come here", it is scratching. "Pick up the food. Give it to me", he is giving it. This is business of the finger. If the finger cannot carry out my order, then it is diseased. And if he immediately carries out order, then it is healthy. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, we must be ready to give service immediately. Then it is healthy condition. And if we do not, then it is māyā . We are serving. You are serving. Everyone is serving, because our constitution is to serve. Big, big leaders, they are also serving. Anyone you can see. The sun, he is serving. Exactly in the time it is rising, by the order of God. Exactly in time it is setting. So everyone is serving. Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya ( CC Adi 5.142): "Only master is God, and everyone is His servant." But the diseased condition is that when we do not serve God, we serve something else— māyā —and that is diseased condition. That is . . .? Diseased condition. Impure condition. At the present moment we have discovered so many services—national service, communal service, and this service, that service—but nobody is recommending service of God. This is the diseased condition. Therefore we are suffering. So what do you really mean by arousing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? What does it entail? *That means we have to serve Kṛṣṇa. We are serving now non*-Kṛṣṇa. Nothing is non-Kṛṣṇa. Something māyā . Just like dreaming. Dreaming, it is also activity. That is false activity. Excuse me, may I ask one question if I can, please. You said māyā or disease. Māyā is disease or māyā or many other ailments? By which . . . Māyā is a diseased condition. Māyā is a diseased condition or many other ailments under who the human beings are affected. Yes. Are these bad conditions or ailments not part and parcel of God? Yes. But you are suffering. You should admit. Just like a prison department is part and parcel of the government. But who is in the prison, he is suffering. That's a very good answer. That's a wonderful answer. Your Divine Grace, would your message be exactly the same for, say, a starving man in India and a Westerner who's got everything that a person needs? We say that not only in India, everyone, you'll starve, because you are rebellious to God consciousness. You must starve. That is the punishment. Just like anyone who is a criminal, he must be punished. That is the law of nature. So by that, I suppose one would presume that people in India have been most rebellious to God. Why India? Everywhere. Why you speak India? Because . . . When you speak of God, don't take India, or America or Europe. Everywhere. No. Because the number of starving men here is much larger. *You are starving on account of your economic condition being bad or . . . I cannot say anything. But they are also starving. You are poor by force, and they sometimes accept poverty voluntarily, just like the hippies. They have enough money. They are coming from very rich father and grandfather, but they lie down on the street, and the police comes and kick them, "Hey, get up! Get up!" Why? Why they have accepted this? So this kind of varieties we find everywhere—rich man, middle*-class man and poverty-stricken man. Don't think that it is in India. I am traveling all over the world. Swāmījī, what do you suggest to your disciples to arouse what you call Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness? Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the purificatory process. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . God is so kind. In this age . . . it is meant for every age. Especially this age, when we are so much fallen and so much suffering, and neither we are able to act very piously, therefore this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , if you chant, you gradually become purified. Then you come to your own consciousness. So how would you define sin? What is impurities, or to sin? You cannot understand impurities? *I mean, give any clear*-cut definition. Just like when you are diseased and the doctor gives you some vaccine and injection to cure you, to make you purified. Is it not? *No, but just like could there be any clear*-cut criterion, for example, to say that I have committed sin or I have not committed sin? What is sin? *Clear*-cut criterion is that we living entity, being part and parcel, we are as good as God. But when we are under the control of the material nature, that is our diseased condition. Same example: Just like you, as a good citizen, you are as good as Indira Gandhi. You are Indian; you have got all the rights. But if you become criminal, you put into the prison. So we are in the . . . conditioned state means no freedom. It is not clear? No, sir, I just wanted you to tell me some yardstick from which one could . . . But because you are suffering, that is the sign of impurity. Beg your pardon? Because you are suffering. Do you admit that you are suffering? Do you know this? Suffering means that there is some impurity. No, are you not suffering? Yes, everybody is. *That is diseased condition. Just like diseased con . . . when you have got fever—you are suffering—that is diseased condition. So long you are suffering, you must be aware of the fact that you are in diseased condition. Because you are part and parcel, there is no question of suffering. Sac*-cid-ānanda . . . But suffering may not necessarily be because of sin. It might be because of something else, you know? "Might be something," that is your sinful activities. That, "something" is some sinful activity. Now a poor man suffers of hunger. This is not sin if he doesn't get proper food or anything. Yes. Yes. But how you can help? You cannot help. Just like a prisoner in the . . . suffering in the prison house, you cannot help him. I may suffer because I have a cancer . . . No, first of all you try to understand. But cancer is not a sin, you know. Yes. Everything is sin. Disease means sin. Unless you commit sinful life, there is no question of suffering. I thought . . . but sin has some relation with . . . Sometimes the suffering is self brought and sometimes a suffering is brought without self, by nature. *Eh? No, no, that is wrong. Every suffering is brought by you—yourself. Just like if you are punished by the high*-court judge to be hanged, you don't make the high-court judge is the cause of your hanging. You made a situation—the high-court judge has given you the judgment that you must be hanged. Would you tell us something about the Vedic city which is being constructed in Māyāpur? He wants to know something about the Vedic city which is being constructed in Māyāpur. Yes, not Vedic city. Vedic planetarium. How you got this information? He had come to our temple earlier. He's already published one article in yesterday's paper. Which paper? This morning I have got. You must try to understand that we are suffering on account of our sinful activities. Sir, I am asking what is sinful activity. You do not know? I don't know. Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish. If you go on the street and it is, there is, "Keep to the left," as soon as you go to the right, you suffer. Is it not? Immediately you go to the court. Is it not suffering? No, no, just try to understand. No, sir, I just wanted to ask you . . . No, no, why wonder? You just try to understand this common sense, that as soon as you go to the street, if the indication is that you must keep your car on the left side, and as soon as you go to the right side, you become a criminal, immediately. You can say: "What is the wrong? The right side or wrong side, I am driving my car." But it is criminal, you know or not know. Ignorance of law is no excuse. So just similarly there is law of God. So as soon as you violate, you must suffer. You see? What is that law court? *That means you are so ignorant. You are so ignorant. The law of God, law is . . . God is personally speaking, "This is the law, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66)." This is the law. God is speaking personally, and you do not know? And you are advertising very expert in reading Bhagavad-gītā , and you do not know the law? This is going on. Big, big scholars, big, big monkey, they are reading Bhagavad-gītā three hundred times daily, but do not know what is law. This is going on. In Bengali there is a saying: "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." You know the monkey, big monkey, Hanumānjī. He jumped over. So ask any other monkey, "Can you jump?" Melancholy. (laughter) Similarly, big, big scholars of Bhagavad-gītā and do not know what is the law of God. This is going on. Big, big commentary, big, big book, but the law he does not know. Your Divine Grace, this is actually not very relevant to the press conference, but have you ever met people like the Sai Baba or Bala Yogeshwara or . . . Why shall I meet these nonsense? Why shall I meet? What is the business? Fools and rascals may meet them. Why shall I meet? What can I get from them? What is their special value? Tell me, why shall I meet? What is the business I have got to meet him? You are suggesting? No, I mean . . . No, no, why shall I meet? Why you expect like that, I shall meet? He just wanted to know if you have ever met them. They are also . . . No, no. Why he is . . .? Why he is asking this? What business I have got to meet with them? What shall I get from them? Just to discuss metaphysics. Yes. If I am taking lesson from Kṛṣṇa, why shall I take lesson from such bogus things? No, they have also been recognized as . . . Who recognized? Who recognized? . . . as exponent of Hindu thought and . . . No, no, who recognized? First of all, who recognized? No, they too have a following in the West. That is the defect. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They vote. Just like in big democratic country like America they voted Nixon to become president, and when they found that, "This man is a bogus," they again dragged him down. So this is going on. We vote somebody to the topmost position, and we see that he's a rascal. So therefore we do not advise. We say: "Just take lesson from Kṛṣṇa, who is recognized by everyone." That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't say: "Go to a bogus man and take instruction." We don't say. *May I interrupt? What Swāmīji has described in all the books—as it exists, no further contribution, no amendment, no interpretation. He has described all what has been written in Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad*-gītā , in its truest form. So no imitation, no representation, no interpretation. Swāmījī has described exactly as it happened. And that is being appreciated all over the world. All over the world that is being appreciated. *Swāmījī, could you please throw light on your four*-point regulation which you suggest to your disciples? *Yes. That is pious life. No illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication and no gambling. No . . .? *Gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. So if we want to know God, we must be free from sinful life. This is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If you want to be God conscious, then you must be free from all sinful activities. God is pure. If you want to approach God, then you must be pure. If you remain impure, you cannot understand. Swāmījī, do you think that there are some people in this country in thousands or maybe tens of thousands who are getting spiritual solace from, say, people like Sai Baba or any of these other people who have interpreted the *Vedas* or who have followers all over the country? Do you think these followers are getting some amount of spiritual solace? No, no. First of all, do you know what Sai Baba is preaching? Hmm? Do you know? No. Then how you are asking on behalf of Sai Baba? No, just like that. Just like . . . I am just going . . . I mean, I am very far removed from these . . . No, no, why you are interested? Twice, thrice you have said Sai Baba. *No, anybody. Because he is among the better*-known people. I, I am, I have nothing to do with. *So, but better*-known . . . It could be someone like, say, the Bala Yogeshwara, who also got some kind of following there. *That is . . . that has spoiled our India's Vedic culture. Everyone has invented some ways, and they have misled the general people, people, followers. That is the misfortune of modern India. Yes. The standard instruction is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . They do not care to know it. They want to know about the greatness of Bala Yogi, Sai Baba, this bābā , that bābā . That is their misfortune. They give up the real instruction, Bhagavad-gītā , which is accepted by the great ācāryas —Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu—and all over the world, they are not interested to know Bhagavad-gītā , they are interested to know about Sai Baba. Just see the misfortune. But what would you attribute this to? What would you attribute this to? What is the cause of this? Cause of this? One simple cause is they have become unfortunate. They give up the real thing, and they accept the imitation. So that is their misfortune. If there are two shops, everyone knows, "Here is real gold, and here is imitation gold." And if you go to purchase imitation gold, that is his misfortune. What is it in your movement which has appealed to the Western world? I believe you have a sizable following in . . . Yes, because we are supplying real gold. We are giving real gold. We are not supplying imitation gold. That is the credit. If you supply imitation thing, it may go for some time, but it will not endure. So many svāmīs and yogīs go there, but just these . . . ask these American boys. They don't care for them. No, but even Mahesh Yogi has a considerable following in America and a lot of Western countries. No . . . (indistinct) Amongst housewives. No. Now it is going down, and the followers, they have . . . they will not follow any regulative principles. They will not surrender. Simply . . . they have no actual disciples who are following principles. Are we going to compare because of the larger following? Do you compare the relative and the unrelative? This is the . . . I didn't meant to compare Swāmījī's teachings with that of Mahesh Yogi's, but I . . . No, how many Mahesh Yogi has brought, disciples like this? Practical, come, come, practical point. Have you seen in India Mahesh Yogi's disciples like . . .? Well, whenever he comes to Delhi he brings two, three jumbo jets full of disciples. This is my answer. Thousands of them are working here on my behalf. Just see their character and behavior. Swāmījī, may I say something? A magician can create many charismas. But God also create charismas. Who will you compare? The magician charismas or the God's charisma? This is the difference. A magician can also sometimes impress upon people that he has godly powers, but are they the real godly powers as against real godly powers? This is the difference. I have been at least thirty times to America, talked to lot of people. They say if you want to go really for attainment of your soul, you go to ISKCON. Even Mahesh Yogi says. Yes. And if you want to attain your bodily strength . . . Yes, actually. One of his secretaries came to us. One of his secretaries, he asked that, "I want real knowledge of God." He said: "Then you go to ISKCON." That's true. And if you want blissful, pleasureful things, go to either Mahesh Yogi or go to Bala Hathayogi. This is what has been . . . this is what has been impressed upon by knowledgeable people in America. And at least I can say with authority that I have talked with lot of people in America. They say that you can chant some mantra and go on with your sinful life. But the practical result is that people's lives remain the same. They may simply divert themselves from their suffering temporarily. But in reality their condition of life is the same. They're still in a miserable condition of life, whereas Prabhupāda is actually lifting us out of the well of misery to the atmosphere of blissfulness. That Mahesh Yogi advertises in the paper, "TM, you don't require any religion, don't require to follow any principles," and so on, so on. But I have got so many strictures—still, they do not go to him—they come to me. He has no stricture, but I have got so many stricture. And it is the report of the Draft Department that, "Why the young men come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? What is the facility?" So they studied. So they reported, "There is no facility, simply rigidity. Still they go there." (laughter) Do you have any plans of propagating your movement in India? Because you have been for too long working in the West, and I believe India is not getting the benefit of your teaching and your guidance. *India is so misguided that it will take some time to come. Because whatever I . . . even if you speak to India, what I shall speak? I'll speak Bhagavad*-gītā . The Bhagavad-gītā was already there, still already there. But India's misfortune is they are so neglectful, they don't take care of Bhagavad-gītā . They'll bring, "Why not Sai Baba? Why not this bābā ? Why not that bābā ?" That is the difficulty. No, I wanted to ask . . . They have become overintelligent. Not simple intelligent but overintelligent. That is . . . they are not overintelligent. That is the, I mean, facility for them. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. That is in the śāstra , in the *Vedas* , in everywhere. But you won't believe it. You'll say: "Why Kṛṣṇa Supreme God? Another . . . here is God. Here is God." Hundreds and thousands of Gods you'll bring. That is the difficulty. No, do you plan to propagate your message in India? *Yes, certainly I plan, but the difficulty is that who is going to accept? The philosophy is already there. Bhagavad*-gītā is already, but who is hearing to take it? Even if I speak, I shall speak, "Read Bhagavad-gītā ," but who will take it? That is the difficulty. They will bring another competition. What probably he's asking is do we have any positive plans . . . For spreading the movement in India. We have got. We have already planned. That has been seen in Māyāpur. That has been . . . in Bombay there's a very big temple, we are building, with a center. In . . . (indistinct) . . . Vṛndāvana . . . My point is that what I am speaking, it is not unknown to India, but they are so misfortunate that they don't take it. That is the difficulty. So, so unfortunate they have become that they don't take it. What shall I speak in India? The same thing. So that is all the more reason why your work is needed. *No, we are doing. As far as possible, we have got center. The people are so overintelligent, don't take it. "Ah, what Hare Kṛṣṇa? We have heard it. Ah, we have seen Bhagavad*-gītā ." That is . . . if you become neglectful, that is the greatest offense. So India is offender. It is India's philosophy, what I am preaching others. India doesn't require to be known to be aware. It is . . . they already know it, but they won't take it. They have become so unfortunate. That is the difficulty. If you don't take it, then how you'll become rich? Suppose if I give you, "Take this one thousand dollars." But if you don't take it, then what benefit will be there? India's position is like that. Would you be opening certain schools in India on gurukula pattern? Yes, we are trying, but the difficulty, India, is that they are very, very neglectful. Is the government discouraging in certain . . . There is no question of government or . . . the government is people's men. So if you are . . . we are ourselves fools and rascals, the government will also be a set of fools and rascals. And if you are intelligent, the government will be intelligent. Because now it is democracy. You select some men. So don't blame government. You are government. If you are fools, the government are fools. If you are intelligent, the government is intelligent. It is up to you to change; then everything will be all right. Swāmījī, excuse me, is there any special significance of keeping this bead hidden from the public? *Yes, just to follow Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā says, man-manā bhava mad bhaktaḥ : "Always think of Me." So we are thinking, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." No, I mean, you are keeping it wrapped in a piece of cloth. That bead. Why? The bead is pure, so just to keep it aloof from the dust. You see? Just like we keep this drinking water covered. Why? This is common sense. Just to keep it pure. Yes. Pure it is, but still, it is our duty not to treat ordinarily. Are your disciples supposed to chant the mantra all the time? Yes. All my disciple is chanting. Are they supposed to chant the mantra throughout the day? Oh, yes. All the time? Just like I am talking with you, and as soon as talking stops, I am . . . my hand is going, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā . Is it possible to talk and also to chant the mantra at the same time? Yes. That requires practice. That requires practice. Just like woman is cooking and (s)he is also talking. It does not mean the cooking is going bad. It is practice. Swāmījī, does this chanting of mantra brings purity or following of your four instructions or regulations which you have told, or both? *Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. It purifies the heart, yes, the core of the heart. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). This is the effect of chanting. Because everything we are doing on account of dirty heart, so everything is dirty. So if you purify your heart, then everything becomes clear. How long does it take to purify ourself? It takes . . . just like if the dirty things are very fixed up, it takes little more time. Otherwise it takes little time. Swāmījī, I believe you'll be having certain industries for export also in Māyāpur. May I know if they will be manned by disciples, and if so, do you think that they would be in a much better position to look after these big gośālās and other things than, say, other people would be? *If you follow Bhagavad*-gītā , then everything will be followed very nicely. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). And go-rakṣya , this is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā . So if you follow Bhagavad-gītā , then naturally go-rakṣya will be there. And if you read Bhagavad-gītā for some political reason, then slaughterhouse go on. That's all. Instead of go-rakṣya , go-killing. This is going on. Every politician is reading Bhagavad-gītā , but go-rakṣya . . . instead of go-rakṣya , go-hatya . This is going on—no go-rakṣya , but go-hatya . This is going on. Who cares for Kṛṣṇa? This is the misfortune of India. Kṛṣṇa spoke in India, in Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa appeared in India, but Indian people are neglecting. Therefore I say it is a misfortune. It is your own thing. You are neglecting it. So you want to encourage that. *Yes. I want that . . . Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken in India. Every Indian should take Bhagavad-gītā very seriously. Then India's fortune will change. But they have rejected Bhagavad-gītā , and they are making their own imagination as the goal of life. So how they will be happy? If you have your father's property, you squander it and then you beg from others, "Give me some money," then how much unfortunate you are, just see. Your father's property, you squandered it. Then you become a beggar and beg from others, "Give me some money, sir." So how much unfortunate you are, just imagine. When you visited the Soviet Union, Swāmījī, did you find the atmosphere worse than it is in Western countries, say? Are the people . . . Everywhere the people are very good, but the leaders are bad. Did you meet any of them? No. Yes. I talked with one of the best leaders, Professor Kotovsky. He is the professor of Indology. I talked with him. I have studied. The people are generally very good. But did you hold any meetings or anything? Yes. Were they receptive to what you . . . Yes. I was invited by Professor Kotovsky to talk with him. On my way to Europe I stayed there. So I have studied the people. They are very good, as our Indian people, innocent masses, they are also like that. But they are being sophisticated by their new philosophy, Communism, artificial thing. But they are not happy. They are being forced to accept a philosophy. People are . . . I have seen from their face. They look unhappy. Everything dependent on government. You have to accept. You cannot select your food even. Whatever nonsense things the government will supply, you have to accept, even you don't like it. And for us it was a great difficulty. We could not get rice, could not get flour, neither fruit. Only milk is available, and flesh, as much as you like. So on the whole it was artificial, and people are not happy. Swāmījī, why do you prohibit this tea or coffee also for your disciples? Because it is sinful. It is sinful? Yes. Why should you eat meat? What about onions and . . .? Yes, onions is also very agitating. Sir, why are they sinful? Why are they sinful? What sinful? Why is it sinful to take tea or coffee? Because you get intoxication. If you are habituated to take tea, as soon as in your time you don't take, you'll become mad. You mean this dependency is bad . . . Yes, why should we . . .? . . . or this tea itself is bad? If your mind is agitated for something, then you become dependent on that thing. That is the position. Those who are taking tea, they have become so much dependent on tea. But if I start talking milk I will be equally dependent on milk, sir. No, no. No, milk will not. Milk, you take little milk once; that will satisfy. No, what he says that if he starts taking milk regularly, he'll become dependent. He'll become . . . So that much dependent, you must eat something. But you must eat something which is favorable for you. Eatable—everything is eatable. The stool is also eatable. That does not mean you, human being, you go to eat stool. That is meant for the pigs, hogs. You are not hogs and pigs. But if you become . . . if you try to become pigs and hog, then you can become. No discrimination of food means pigs and hogs. And God will give chance to become a hog next life. Sir, most of your disciples have their heads shaven. But if you admit this, that after this life you have to accept another body. Do you accept this? Eh? I do, sir. *Then that body offered to you, is it in your hand? Suppose the next life you are offered a pig's body. Can you say: "No, no, I don't want it"? That is the statement of Bhagavad*-gītā : tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). But how to give up, sir? Eh? How to give up. What is give up? How to give up this tea and coffee to which we are so much habituated? That they have given up. Join the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Just see the example, how they are . . . ask them. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you lose your hankering for everything else. Really? Yes. The higher taste. That is the taste of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra ca (SB 11.2.42). As soon as you advance in devotion, you become detestful to the all material enjoyment. Swāmījī, may I inquire from which class of society people generally come to you in the States? Hmm? From which class of society in the United Sates do most of your disciples come? You can ask them. I do not know. All classes. Many educated people as well as people from all different classes, all racial backgrounds. No, no. In America, who is uneducated? Yes, all coming from very nice families, the majority, education. Many, many of them coming from very wealthy families. Now, if you should take good family means wealthy family, then America, there is no poor family. There is no question of poverty. So how do you distinguish that he's coming from good family, he's coming from bad family? Poverty is unknown to them. Nobody is uneducated. Then how you distinguish who is bad and who is good? Everyone is good—unless he voluntarily becomes bad, hippie. Otherwise everyone is coming from very good family, rich family, educated family. Do you have a large number of American Negroes in your movement, Swāmījī? Not large number, but there are. Is there any reason why that is so? That is . . . there is reason. They are not very much cultured. Do you have women followers also in this movement? Yes. America, men and women have got equal rights. Sir, whom do you find more responsive to your movement, women or men? Everyone. Everyone. They are very fortunate. And I am very much indebted to them because they have helped me. Yes. Helped in what sense? Helped in cooperation. Without their cooperation . . . now, these books I am writing surely, but they are pushing on, even facing great danger. They are helping me in my translating work, in typing, in composing, in printing. Have you got that film, how they are doing? No. Have you got that film? That book film? I don't have the projector here, Prabhupāda. That suitcase is not here. So if we invite them to see it, that how they are helping efficiently with latest machine . . . therefore it has been possible. Otherwise, while in India with great hardship I could publish three books only. They are very beautifully printed. Where did the money come from to print such lavish editions of your books? The money comes . . . we are selling books daily. No, but initially you do require a . . . Eh? Initially it requires some money to print such a lavish book. Initially I took some books from here. They are not so nicely printed, but still, I sold them. Then gradually increased. They paid the money, and then . . . they made contributions. One of my student, he first, Jayānanda, he . . . no, first paid me . . . he, he has first paid me five thousand dollars. Then Brahmānanda paid me five thousand dollars. In this way gradually money came. Swāmījī, you write originally in English, or these books are being translated from some other language into English for you? No, translated, but I give my purport. That is . . . they like very much. Present the purport in such a way they can understand it. The original verse is there, but they are explained by me. Give some critical comments and explanations. Yes. That they like. Does that mean, Swāmījī, that yours is a cultural and educational movement rather than a personal cult. A cultural and educational movement rather than a personal cult. *Yes, it is cultural movement, educational movement. It is not so*-called religious movement. Religious movement is sentiment. Generally, religion is taken as a kind of faith but it is not a kind of faith. In . . . I think, in South America that Indian man was asking that, "It is the Hindu faith?" Oh, in South Africa. He was asking, "Is this Hindu faith?" "This cult or that cult?" *So just see. He was Hindu gentleman, belonging to the Ārya*-samāj. So three times he said: "Is it Hindu faith?" And what do you mean by Hindu faith? When Kṛṣṇa said, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), is it meant for the Hindus that a child becomes . . . a baby becomes a child, a child becomes a boy, a boy becomes a young man, a young man becomes a old man, and the old man dies, changes this body? Is it meant for the Hindus? The Muhammadans do not become old men or young men? The Christians don't become old men? *But such fools there are that Bhagavad*-gītā is speaking, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13)—"It is meant for the Hindus." Just see. Such fools there are. And Kṛṣṇa said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "If you have got enough food grains, then all the living entities are satisfied." Is it meant for the Hindus? So this is going on, "This is Hindu scripture." What do you mean by Hindu scripture? Huh? So they are interpreting in their own way. So Kṛṣṇa is not for the Hindus or the Mussulmans or Christians. He is God. He is everyone. He is for everyone. And it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , sarva-yonīṣu kaunteya mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ (BG 14.4): "In all species of life, as many forms of life are there, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ , I am the seed-giving father of all of them." So where is the question of Hindus? This is going on. Does it ever happen, Swāmījī, that some disciples of yours may disagree with you on spiritual matters? No. *Unless he is a fool. (laughter) Unless he's damn fool, they do not. (laughter) If he's sane and sober, open*-hearted, then he will agree. Not only Hindus. We have got so many Muhammadans also. So unless one is open-minded, sane, intelligent, they cannot understand. Therefore I say the Indians are becoming insane. By the influence of so many rascals they are becoming insane. So that has to be rectified. But insanity is prevailing all over the world, but not so much insanity as in India, that they are rejecting their own things. This is the greatest insanity. Why they are rejecting Bhagavad-gītā ? What is the reason? Tell me, you. Because of Hindus suffer from basic economic instability. Eh? Economic instability. *Economic? Then why don't you accept the economic program given by Bhagavad*-gītā ? Why don't you accept? If you would elaborate on that, I would be very much interested. *Well, that is . . . it is . . . it is known to everyone. Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Anna. Anna means food grains, eatables. You must produce sufficient food grains. Why you are producing tire tube instead of food grains? And just entering your Delhi from Vṛndāvana, a big Goodyear factory, very big factory. You are producing tire tube, then iron, Goodyear and this and that. Where is food grain? And both sides, the field is vacant. Nobody is going to grow food grain. Then why you'll not starve? It is your fault. You are producing tire tube and iron instrument. You are neglecting agriculture. Then why you shall not suffer for want of food grain? And you are pleading, "Indians are starving." Why shall not starve if they do not follow Bhagavad*-gītā ? They are thinking, "By increasing industry in America . . ." They have got industry, at the same time food grains also. But you are taking to industry without taking care of growing food grains. *Swāmījī, I would like to know that I feel that your Society, the Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness Society, has a very, very stable economy, and that it is self*-sufficient in itself. Is that so? Speak a little louder. *Is the Hare Kṛṣṇa Society self*-sufficient? Does it have a . . . he understands that our Society has a very stable economy. Is it self-sufficient, our own Hare Kṛṣṇa Society? *So don't you think that we are self*-sufficient? We are feeding at least ten thousand devotees daily, but we have no fixed income. They don't have any fixed income. No. None of us have any fixed income, but we are traveling all over the world—New York, London, Calcutta. It is just like going from this quarter to that quarter. Our men are moving like that. Immediately coming, one dozen men from Germany, one dozen from London, and immediately going. We are paying so much money to the airplanes, and we have got so many centers. So how it is going on? Kṛṣṇa's grace. We depend on Kṛṣṇa. Our income, daily collection, is not less than one lakh of rupees, and we are spending everything. One lakh daily? That is minimum. Sometimes we collect five lakhs daily. What is the way you go about collecting money? *That book*-selling. Only . . . books are the only source of your . . . That's it. This question was raised in the Parliament that, "Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they are fabulously rich. Where they get their money?" And the Parliament answer was "They get their money by selling literature." That means the devotees, Swāmījī, do not contribute to the . . . No, no, no. Not the devotees purchase. They publish. Those who are intelligent public, they purchase. They purchase. Right. But do the devotees contribute in any way? *Yes. They are contributing their life. We don't get any such life*-sacrificing Indians. These educated boys, rich men's son, they have sacrificed everything for me. And where is Indian? Swāmījī, do you have certain farms also in America, gośālā ? Yes. Not only one, many. What else do you have over there besides gurukula schools and things? We produce our own milk. In New Vrindavan we are producing . . . you are Nava Bharata Times ? You are, any of you, Nava Bharata Times ? Is there any representative, Nava . . . ? No. Your representative went to New Vrindavan, and he published in the November 1974, I think. Yes, '74. *Yes, they published one big article, Nava Bharata Time , and the heading was, Adhyatmikta ka jamuna aur doodh*-dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (The Yamuna of spirituality and the river of milk and curd is flowing.) (laughter) This was the heading. Actually they gave the photograph of our Deity and activities, everything. You can find out November issue of Nava Bharata in 1974. But you've virtually given up India as a dead loss, Swāmījī. Eh? You've given up India as a dead loss, isn't it, in the sense . . . Dead loss? Dead loss . . . but the leaders are dead loss. Misleaders. They have given up their own culture, and they are trying to imitate others. Swāmījī, when there was discussion in Parliament about the fabulous money that the movement has, Society has, then who provided the answers? The Home Member. The Minister. Yes. We have a copy of this in Bombay, the question number and . . . it was about two, three years ago. They must have done intensive research and things like that. The other member, they raised the question. They brought the charges that the Americans are CIA. What is that? CIA, or not? What is? Yes. CIA. *The CIA have become Vaiṣṇava and given up meat*-eating and dancing with me, and they have no other means. (laughter) Just see how foolish question it is. The CIA men have come to me for inquiry. This question, rascal questions, are put. Such unfortunate insanity is prevailing in India. (laughter) The American CIA, they have come to me. Just see. Swāmījī, would you print that it is legitimate for the government to say that certain undesirable . . . Don't bring in government now. It is emergency. (laughter) Put ordinary question. Don't bring in government. No, but have you been troubled by any undesirable elements? *No, no. We are clean. Why shall we be . . .? But if you want to put us in trouble, you can do it. We are preaching . . . our signboard is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why do you misunderstand? And we are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. You have got our book. Still if you misunderstand, that is our misfortune. What can I do? Thank you very much indeed, Swāmījī. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Would you like to have a look at some of our books? We have some refreshments also if you want. (end) Conversation -- April 4, 1976, Vrndavana All of them are South African? *No, actually, he's from South Africa and he's from South Africa. These two devotees are going down for the first time, and Jagat*-guru was preaching there once before. So they will get visa? *They don't require visa except for Jagat*-guru. He's British, he's Canadian. He's South African boy. He's South African. Oh, they don't require visa. *Only Jagat*-guru dāsa, American. Oh. So he'll get visa? Yes. Oh, yes. So all five, you are going? Yes. Now, we have studied this South Africa. They like our movement. And they are purchasing books. That is very good sign. Is it not? They are purchasing? Who are purchasing books? Educated circle? Colleges. College. That is . . . college, universities, that is educated. So I was surprised when, after my meeting, they purchased books, because these South African white men, they do not like very much Indians. Is it not? It's a fact. But still, they like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is very good sign. Even the Indians are attracted to our Indian culture. They lost their culture. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, we were thinking that this is 1976, and in July there is Ratha*-yātrā. So by next year, '77, we hope to be able to have Ratha-yātrā in Durban. There may be a quarter of a million, half a million Indian people. One cart and three deities on one cart. And whether government will allow? I think so. They already have permission. They can give permission, will do probably. And also we want to establish also, apart from the temple, one bus program which will reach all the towns and villages there in South Africa. Very good. And also we will go to Rhodesia and possibly Malawi and maybe Mozambique, which are countries in our area. And also I spoke to the boys from Mauritius, and we would have some . . . Mauritius, we have got now devotee. Yes. You have kept his address? Two devotees. Oh. *One is that gentleman, Mr. Narayan. He's an engineer with the city electrical department. And the other is a full*-time devotee. I have his address, Mr. Narayan's address. So they are still here? He's anxious to go back. He's going to London until August; then he's going back to Mauritius with his family. We will invite him to come to our Durban festival. And also I've suggested that they also arrange something big, festival, because there are 600,000 Indians there, and that some of our men then go to the island and give them association. So they'll give visa? Me? *For you? Oh, yes. I think we have to make a chest x*-ray again and take several shots for you, (laughter) no problem. So when you are going back? Tomorrow? Yes. When? Early in the morning? *Yes. We're making the arrangements tomorrow to go. We're getting tickets and some books. Then Jagat*-guru will follow a few days later. Make vigorous propaganda all over the world. From South Africa, Australia there is direct service. Direct service. Perth. Perth. Yes. From Perth to . . . Sydney. No, South Africa . . .? How many hours? It's about nine hours. Not much. Nearer than India. From India to Australia takes so many hours. Five hours it was, from Bombay to Mauritius. Takes over fourteen hours. Five hours, again nine hours. And then it was about three hours to South Africa from Mauritius. No, from Mauritius they can go directly to Australia. No? Direct to? Australia. Oh, yes. If the flight is broken up like that, it's a little easier—from South Africa to Mauritius to Perth, or even to Bombay. It's about the same distance from Bombay to Mauritius as to Australia from Mauritius. Prabhupāda is thinking about going from India to South Africa to Australia to make the flight easier. I don't think it makes the flight easier, because you're going like a triangle, this way and then this way. Let us arrange some nice program first, so that when you come again we'll have something nice to offer you. I think in Mauritius there is good field. They adopted culture. The problem in Mauritius has been that either they don't know how to collect, or they say it's a very poor country and they're not able to get funds to start any kind of a dynamic program. They cannot chant even? Chanting they do. That is wanted. We don't want money. So give them directly. Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) South African mission, very good. At this present moment, Prabhupāda, we have a really unique situation, the best of all. Eh? A unique situation in South Africa, because there are many Europeans that are being drafted into the army, but they will not allow the Indians to be drafted. They don't want them to go into the military forces because they're afraid they're too intelligent. Some of our brahmacārīs , they've been drafted into the army. We've lost several devotees like that, because it's very hard for them to maintain their Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the army. Conscription. Yes, conscription. But the Indians are not drafted. There's no army for them. So we're hoping that in Durban, where you first preached at the City Hall, the young people there, if we can get them sufficiently enthused, that they'll also join, and then we'll be able to have a very big movement amongst Indian community as well. We won't lose any devotees like that from the draft. I think our students who are going to be ministers, they are excused from draft. No, even in South Africa the ministers . . . no excuse. It's a very strict situation. If you don't go into the army, you go to jail. Even if you're a minister, they don't care. Ācchā ? There is no religious grounds for objecting. But only the Europeans are in the army, no one else. They're afraid that if the Indians had guns, they might use them against the Europeans. (laughing) So we're going to try and make more devotees this year, more Indian devotees especially. We've never really tried before. *Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you have seen on our altar, Gaura*-Nitāi? We have large Gaura-Nitāi and two small, three actually, three small sets of Gaura-Nitāi Deities. The ones on the far left, just under Lord Nityānanda's feet, They are going also to South Africa. They came originally from East Africa. I mentioned it when I first came to Māyāpur. So we will be taking Them. We have a very nice siṁhāsana built for Them, finished tomorrow, and we'll be displaying Them at all our programs, preaching programs. Do the needful. (pause) That's all. (offer obeisances) Jaya . Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. They're very enthusiastic to preach. Yes. That is life. One who is enthusiastic to preach, he is living. Others are dead. (looking at flower) Just see how beautiful. Who is the rascal scientist can manufacture that by combination of chemicals? They can imitate the fragrance. (laughs) They can imitate, like monkeys. If you see only to the flowers, you become invigorated. If you see only . . .? Invigorated; get a refreshment. If you just see a flower. Yes, just to walk through a nice garden, it's very pacifying. *How many different colors and set*-up, craftsmanship. There is no brain, eh? Chance. It is not chance. In this particular tree, this flower will grow. Color will not change. (pause) So somebody is preparing? Yes. Who? (end) Conversation -- April 4, 1976, Vrndavana All of them are South African? *No, actually, he's from South Africa and he's from South Africa. These two devotees are going down for the first time, and Jagat*-guru was preaching there once before. So they will get visa? *They don't require visa except for Jagat*-guru. He's British, he's Canadian. He's South African boy. He's South African. Oh, they don't require visa. *Only Jagat*-guru dāsa, American. Oh. So he'll get visa? Yes. Oh, yes. So all five, you are going? Yes. Now, we have studied this South Africa. They like our movement. And they are purchasing books. That is very good sign. Is it not? They are purchasing? Who are purchasing books? Educated circle? Colleges. College. That is . . . college, universities, that is educated. So I was surprised when, after my meeting, they purchased books, because these South African white men, they do not like very much Indians. Is it not? It's a fact. But still, they like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is very good sign. Even the Indians are attracted to our Indian culture. They lost their culture. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, we were thinking that this is 1976, and in July there is Ratha*-yātrā. So by next year, '77, we hope to be able to have Ratha-yātrā in Durban. There may be a quarter of a million, half a million Indian people. One cart and three deities on one cart. And whether government will allow? I think so. They already have permission. They can give permission, will do probably. And also we want to establish also, apart from the temple, one bus program which will reach all the towns and villages there in South Africa. Very good. And also we will go to Rhodesia and possibly Malawi and maybe Mozambique, which are countries in our area. And also I spoke to the boys from Mauritius, and we would have some . . . Mauritius, we have got now devotee. Yes. You have kept his address? Two devotees. Oh. *One is that gentleman, Mr. Narayan. He's an engineer with the city electrical department. And the other is a full*-time devotee. I have his address, Mr. Narayan's address. So they are still here? He's anxious to go back. He's going to London until August; then he's going back to Mauritius with his family. We will invite him to come to our Durban festival. And also I've suggested that they also arrange something big, festival, because there are 600,000 Indians there, and that some of our men then go to the island and give them association. So they'll give visa? Me? *For you? Oh, yes. I think we have to make a chest x*-ray again and take several shots for you, (laughter) no problem. So when you are going back? Tomorrow? Yes. When? Early in the morning? *Yes. We're making the arrangements tomorrow to go. We're getting tickets and some books. Then Jagat*-guru will follow a few days later. Make vigorous propaganda all over the world. From South Africa, Australia there is direct service. Direct service. Perth. Perth. Yes. From Perth to . . . Sydney. No, South Africa . . .? How many hours? It's about nine hours. Not much. Nearer than India. From India to Australia takes so many hours. Five hours it was, from Bombay to Mauritius. Takes over fourteen hours. Five hours, again nine hours. And then it was about three hours to South Africa from Mauritius. No, from Mauritius they can go directly to Australia. No? Direct to? Australia. Oh, yes. If the flight is broken up like that, it's a little easier—from South Africa to Mauritius to Perth, or even to Bombay. It's about the same distance from Bombay to Mauritius as to Australia from Mauritius. Prabhupāda is thinking about going from India to South Africa to Australia to make the flight easier. I don't think it makes the flight easier, because you're going like a triangle, this way and then this way. Let us arrange some nice program first, so that when you come again we'll have something nice to offer you. I think in Mauritius there is good field. They adopted culture. The problem in Mauritius has been that either they don't know how to collect, or they say it's a very poor country and they're not able to get funds to start any kind of a dynamic program. They cannot chant even? Chanting they do. That is wanted. We don't want money. So give them directly. Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) South African mission, very good. At this present moment, Prabhupāda, we have a really unique situation, the best of all. Eh? A unique situation in South Africa, because there are many Europeans that are being drafted into the army, but they will not allow the Indians to be drafted. They don't want them to go into the military forces because they're afraid they're too intelligent. Some of our brahmacārīs , they've been drafted into the army. We've lost several devotees like that, because it's very hard for them to maintain their Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the army. Conscription. Yes, conscription. But the Indians are not drafted. There's no army for them. So we're hoping that in Durban, where you first preached at the City Hall, the young people there, if we can get them sufficiently enthused, that they'll also join, and then we'll be able to have a very big movement amongst Indian community as well. We won't lose any devotees like that from the draft. I think our students who are going to be ministers, they are excused from draft. No, even in South Africa the ministers . . . no excuse. It's a very strict situation. If you don't go into the army, you go to jail. Even if you're a minister, they don't care. Ācchā ? There is no religious grounds for objecting. But only the Europeans are in the army, no one else. They're afraid that if the Indians had guns, they might use them against the Europeans. (laughing) So we're going to try and make more devotees this year, more Indian devotees especially. We've never really tried before. *Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you have seen on our altar, Gaura*-Nitāi? We have large Gaura-Nitāi and two small, three actually, three small sets of Gaura-Nitāi Deities. The ones on the far left, just under Lord Nityānanda's feet, They are going also to South Africa. They came originally from East Africa. I mentioned it when I first came to Māyāpur. So we will be taking Them. We have a very nice siṁhāsana built for Them, finished tomorrow, and we'll be displaying Them at all our programs, preaching programs. Do the needful. (pause) That's all. (offer obeisances) Jaya . Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. They're very enthusiastic to preach. Yes. That is life. One who is enthusiastic to preach, he is living. Others are dead. (looking at flower) Just see how beautiful. Who is the rascal scientist can manufacture that by combination of chemicals? They can imitate the fragrance. (laughs) They can imitate, like monkeys. If you see only to the flowers, you become invigorated. If you see only . . .? Invigorated; get a refreshment. If you just see a flower. Yes, just to walk through a nice garden, it's very pacifying. *How many different colors and set*-up, craftsmanship. There is no brain, eh? Chance. It is not chance. In this particular tree, this flower will grow. Color will not change. (pause) So somebody is preparing? Yes. Who? (end) Conversation -- April 5, 1976, Vrndavana . . . the money is spent and everything is going nicely. Disorganized. Yes, management, management means everything is in order. If there is no manager . . . Otherwise, what is the use of assembling together? There should be some sannyāsī to step forward. Sometimes, though, it is hard to maintain this routine. You yourself told the devotees not to go out and purchase excessive amounts of sweets, but that didn't check them. They are still in the sweet shops continually. This morning, I woke a . . . I went to wake a devotee up. I woke him up at a quarter to four. I said: "Prabhu, you want to get up now? It's about four o'clock, time to wake." So he didn't wake, but I went ahead and bathed, because I want to do that. And then I come back, and it was almost time for ārati . So I said, "If you're not going to bathe, at least get out of bed and come to ārati ." But he wouldn't do even that much. So what can you do under these conditions? When you tell somebody, you can't physically . . . Well, the whole idea is if you create a spiritual atmosphere that is so enlivening that everyone will want to participate in it. That is the solution. You can't individually treat each person. You have to get the whole thing generated by . . . by pouring water on the root. If they sit down for chanting, they should automatically . . . they come. If one is late, then you can say: "Well, why did you not come?" But if there is no chanting, no sitting, simply "Wake up, wake up, wake up!" "All right, I am waking up," that is show. But one may wake up or not, you begin your work immediately. With regard to the ārati . . . How? We go to the, up into the temple for the ārati , so he stays in bed and sleeps, and we go to the ārati . No, that if he stays on the bed, then he should be asked to leave. Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Not that fighting. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Yes? I just want to say one thing, but this . . . and then I will leave, because this is a meeting of the management bureau. But I saw the boy after he was beaten, and as far as I was . . . That I have seen later . . . That was very cruel, erm . . . it looked very cruel to me. It looked like he was beaten with boards. Criminal. So, erm, I don't think . . . if it happened to me, I would sue, if that happened to me. The boy's eye could be put out. That is not good, under any circumstances. That we are discussing. That already . . . (indistinct) *The whole thing is that we are sure about a crisis in India in terms of our presence here. Our prestige has hit an all*-time low simply because of our conduct, that's all. Not because of our teaching or our, our . . . because we're white or anything like that. It is just because of our conduct—it is so bad, abominable. We don't . . . (indistinct) . . . right compared with the Indian sannyāsīs in our conduct. So can we expect to . . . to honor Śrīla Prabhupāda if we conduct ourselves like that? So it is our, our, our responsibility as the leaders not to avoid it, not to avoid the other devotees, but to train them now, begin training. Yes, this is Vaiṣṇava training. Now we should have our routine work. Just like here: punctual. As soon as I see seven, I ask where this is happening, kīrtana vidhi . As soon it as it is five, I immediately ask. So there may be a small assembly, but the routine work must be followed. If somebody is sleeping and the kīrtana is going on, or the morning program is going on, so he may be said that, "If you sleep like that, then you cannot be here." I said that to that boy previously. I told him not to do that. That's all right, but why you . . . (indistinct) . . . something, pour water on his body? Simply to waken him. You should not do anything which may provoke some reaction. (background whispering) So best thing was to say that he is not in good shape. Say to me that he is incorrigible, and I could have asked him, "Don't . . ." Now he's finished. He may leave one day. Once, twice, if he does not follow, then we shall ask him just to "Please leave this place." That's all. That should be our manifesto. And we should also. The police said that, when I told him that our regulation is that everyone should get up at four, so he immediately replied: "I don't see anyone rising at four. Nobody." What can I answer? How can he say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can he see if anyone is rising at four or not? No, here he can. Because we have a space like that, can be seen. Open spaces, morning, he can identify here. Just by your sight. But he is rising. I am rising. He is rising, but others. Some others are rising. None . . . not all, but some of them are rising. The whole point is that the sannyāsīs must see that that standard is kept to the highest. That is their job. That is why you take sannyāsa . But that should be observed, and peacefully it should be settled. If it is not peacefully settled, the man who is continually disobeying, he should be simply asked, "Please go." You cannot beat him. That will . . . Who has the authority to say to somebody "Please go" or not? Eh? Who has the authority to tell a person "Please go"? We don't know . . . I don't know who has that authority. The president will say. So long I am here, I shall say . . . (indistinct) This, this daṇḍa gives authority to the . . . That gives authority. That gives authority. Not in ISKCON. Not in ISKCON. Yes it does, in the US. No, they do not respect sannyāsīs . Yes they do. No, they don't. Because you may not deserve it, then. Now I am getting so . . . the thing is, they may say like, that but behind my back they talk so many things . . . If they do not obey the orders of the sannyāsīs , then naturally . . . but that thing should be brought to the notice at hand, some official president. The case should be taken that if you cannot follow the rules and regulations, you must leave. There is . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no question of fighting. First thing is that the sannyāsīs , leaders, they should behave themselves according to the rules and regulations and then ask others to follow. The others, they do not follow: once, twice excuse; three times, "Please go away." If you follow strictly the principles then you will be automatically respected. Now if I wanted to ask someone to leave, but how does he leave? Do we have to buy him his ticket or something? There was a boy, one Indian, Indra . . . Indrarāja . . . Leave means he can go to another center. I wanted to ask him to leave, but where would he go? Who will pay for his way out? What do you mean? One thing is, that is ultimate. We are canvassing, we are preaching to bring men . . . Here. To get them out is not our business. Hmm. That is not our business, that's all. But if he is incorrigible, it is not . . . then he must leave. That is . . . if you're making so much preaching, why? To bring men, not to ask them to go. If for some paltry reason you ask, that is not . . . when he is incorrigible, first of all you have to try to encourage him. That is preaching. Our preaching means that people are misled. We have to train them in such a way they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our mandate. But if he is completely incorrigible, then he will be asked. Not . . . otherwise it is not our business that as soon as we see something we should think wrong. He must be trained by our example, by our teaching, by our word. Eh? Santa . . . santa chindanti, uktibhiḥ ( SB 11.26.26), by word, by example, he should be corrected. If I cannot correct him by my words and example, that is also my intimidation. Because they have . . . you cannot expect that everyone has come here, sādhu . That's not. You collect from ordinary men, but we have to make him sādhu . That is preaching. That is preaching. That you have to do tactfully. Not that because one is . . . incorrigible men, after trying all our ways, if he is still incorrigible, then you can ask. Not that for fancy reasons, he should not be . . . "Get out." That "Get out," if you made, then everything has to be "Get out." That is not the policy. The policy is first of to correct him. That is preaching. As far as possible by example, by teaching, by everything. Hmm, engaging. *By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If at the school and does not learn nicely, you cannot say: "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then we have to ask. And if there is money required, you have to manage your money. What can be done? But I don't think, if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be practiced. He is after all human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourselves. Āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi. We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly, come to . . . (indistinct) . . . how you can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpane ācare prabhu jīva . First of all you have to behave. If one is not cleansing, you should take . . . (indistinct) . . . just like I have to sometimes: "Not this way but this way." We have to do like that. Not that I command, "You do this," "I cannot do it," "Ah, get out!" Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for teaching, and that teaching means one should behave himself nicely. He cannot say that "You do not do this." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda*-kumāra. You . . . he was accusing you; you were accusing him. I heard from God. (laughter) So you should do in such a way that he cannot accuse you. If you ask him to rise early in the morning and take your bath, and if you do not take . . . eh? But in some special case . . . I was taking early bath; now I do not take, because due to my health. That is different. Otherwise regularly I was taking, not even hot water. This hot water bath I have begun in your country; otherwise I have never took, even in the severest cold. Here also I am trying to avoid; I'm keeping this tub of water. Sunshine, whatever little warm it becomes, that's all. So for special health reasons one cannot rise, he is sick. Not generally. Otherwise everyone should rise early in the morning and take bath and be ready for performing in our centers by six o'clock, by five o'clock. And the kīrtana party, you should have everyone go. It may be small distance, but all our men should go. That will be real welfare, seeing the early in the morning so many parties come. From 3.30. *Three*-thirty. So you behave yourself and others will follow. What is that? Cleanliness and following the routine work. That is our method. You must be very clean, neat and clean, rise early in the morning, and we have got our duties. *Just like yesterday. Yesterday Dvija*-hari came over and said he couldn't get anyone to clean the temple. No one would clean, over at Keśī-ghāṭa. I said: "But there are so many sannyāsīs there, ask them to organize the cleansing party." He said: "Oh, no one would clean. They will not do it." So it doesn't . . . Why not? Some people should be engaged, you have to get them cleaning. They won't, then you have to show them how. You do it also. Because so many people have come and gone. We had a cleaning group and they left for other parties. No, but I'm just saying there are many men there who could have cleaned, but they refused to do it, because they are following your examples. I am cleaning my room, I am cleaning outside also. You just haven't seen it. Anyway, whatever is done is done. This should be followed like that No, I'm not criticizing . . . That, āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi , this should be the principle. One should teach others by behaving himself correctly, then it will be all right. Everyone should remain clean, everyone should rise early in the morning, study, do some work, routine work. So then you can ask, "Why you're not trying? Why you're not doing?" Then he will be ashamed . . . (indistinct) . . . so this principle should be followed, āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi . Is it not? Yes, well, for myself in particular I don't think that many people take my words very heavily. There is so much bad talking about me. First they say the songs are māyā , then the tunes are māyā . Behind my back I hear all kinds of things they say. So nobody takes my word seriously. Even though I may quote from many scriptures, they don't respect me. What is this māyā ? Hmm? The songs are māyā ? Hare Kṛṣṇa? As soon as I left Calcutta, all the bhajanas , they were all, "Oh, that's, that's Gauḍīya Maṭha poison." Then "Okay, the songs are all right but the tunes are poison." I . . . Now how can I overcome this? I heard something in reference to that. You wrote one of the devotees in Calcutta, you wrote . . . he came to Bombay, Bhavānanda, and he said that he had signed a letter, something like, "I pray that I may be engaged in the service of my Guru Mahārāja," and you wrote back, "We are personalists to the letter, so that when we say: "Guru Mahārāja," we always say the name, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda or Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. We don't just leave it in as vague "Guru Mahārāja." " So we were singing Jaya Prabhupāda, or Jaya gurudeva , and he was saying, "Well, that is impersonalist." *Also he says nitāi*-gaura haribol, that is also . . . that is māyā . What is that? So he was saying that all these bhajanas , they're . . . they are not bona fide because they are . . . *Nitāi*-gaura haribol is not bona fide? Who said that, not bona fide? Well not that. He was saying that jaya gurudeva, jaya Prabhupāda, that was not good. Eh? He was saying that is not good, " jaya gurudeva ," because it does not say who. It just says gurudeva ; it could be any gurudeva . So he was criticizing that. Who was? Bhavānanda, because of the letter you wrote to him saying that we are personalists to the letter. So it means that I am a Māyāvādī. That is what it means. Well, it's a matter of overall conduct, not just individual specific things. That overall I am a Māyāvādī. I find that overall the bad atmosphere in India, the resentment against many of the devotees, party politics and different things like that are going on, which is not limited; it is going on all over . . . That's very heavy . . . *Just like with . . . just like with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. He has . . . has the respect of everyone now because he's doing such a good job of managing. He's just doing, he is performing nicely his devotional work, and he is getting some results. That's respect. Then you will get respect. Bali*-mardana Mahārāja, he has built up ISKCON Press, 'til it is just like that (snaps fingers), and everyone touches his feet when they see him. You don't find anyone disrespecting him, because he is performing his duties. You automatically get respect if you perform something nicely. Not just say: "Oh, the atmosphere is bad . . ." Well, we have got many faults we can find out, but generally if I behave nicely others will follow. That is the principle. I may have some faults, you may some. We are not liberated paramahaṁsas ; we are all trying. So generally we should behave very nicely according to rules and regulations: chanting sixteen rounds, rising early in the morning. Particularly maybe there is some discrepancies here and there. So . . . generally it is our general rules and . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all rising early in the morning, if he cleans, and if they read for a . . . (indistinct) . . . if these things are followed, chant sixteen rounds, then everything is there. *In your lectures you emphasize two aspects that must be there: jñāna and renunciation. So some knowledge is there, but the part of the difficulty is that with most of the devotees in every temple in India is that they have not renounced these dirty things completely. They still are attached to sense gratification even on gross levels. So whether a sannyāsī or anybody interferes with their sense gratification, they tend to not oblige, because they are attached to doing things the way they want, and they think because they are in a foreign country, here a long way from America, where the standards are very rigid, that they can do any manner of nonsense and nobody would check them. And if you try to correct them, then they will only do it behind your back. We have seen this with the sweet shops, with rising early, anything that interferes with them doing exactly as they please. They don't want to oblige. And this is in Calcutta, this is in Bombay, and it is happening here in Vṛndāvana. It is not something that is isolated here to the Palace, but the devotees all over, they are just behaving on a level of sense gratification, and that is why there is so much rajas*-guṇa in the temples. So much rajas-guṇa . This is a fact. But how to correct it if you do not correct yourself? How it can happen? Well we . . . many of us have tried to correct our self, and as a result we have been accused of being separatists simply because we don't want to go along with the nonsense that everybody else is doing, but we want to maintain some standard for our self, of reading and chanting, because we don't want to sit down and talk nonsense or do nonsense. And if you try to stop them, they will not stop. So why should we fall down to that level? So we behave as separatists. We go into our room and we will read, or we will go into our room and chant, or we will try to keep ourselves clean or try and do these things, and that is separatism because it is not falling into the level of māyā that is going on everywhere else in the temple—engaging in party politics and all these other things. That is . . . that is what I feel about it. Most of the devotees, they seem out of place . . . Now what is done is done. Now you try to correct others by behaving yourselves. Otherwise there is no need of keeping so many men. We have attempted this in Vṛndāvana. A few men may remain here, that's all. Otherwise it would be not very nice to attract. People are attracted by seeing your behavior. They are seeing that all Europeans and Americans, they have adopted such nice Vaiṣṇava culture. There are attracted from that point. But if we are not to the standard point, they immediately appeal, "Oh they are useless". So that should be corrected. The same principle: āpane ācare prabhu . . . they should behave also nicely and teach others; then it will be . . . What co . . . *And another, this is general principle. Now we have discussed, now you try to follow. And another thing that, that Keśī*-ghāṭa, shall we make further progress? We have acquired that property obviously dropped. What is your opinion? From the circumstances, and that is now, because any temple it must be nicely, very nicely managed; otherwise we cannot maintain. Our Los Angeles temple, you know we attract people, you know it is so nicely managed, very nicely managed. You have seen? So unless . . . and that means there must be sufficient men to manage. Such a big temple . . . I don't . . . Eh? *I don't think that, that there is enough people to clean up and manage and keep clean Keśī*-ghāṭa. Maybe in the future sometime, but . . . At the present it is not. It is so big, so big. Also, the quality of people that are there, the mass people of a higher quality and a smaller place would do much more good. Like I was in the Philippines by myself, all alone, but still, the work could go on much quicker because I could avoid all of this. I could avoid all of this with what we are having right now. I could avoid it completely because there was nobody there to cause it. All new people. So . . . Everybody here knows everything. (several devotees laugh) As, like . . . It goes up very quickly, because the people are automatically attracted, and then you teach them, you train them. So last, Americans, and just one or two people that want to manage, and then start with the people here, the Indian people. And as they develop and become strong, then develop a center. It may take a long time, but it will be solid, be more solid then. Just bring a bunch of Americans here, and then the whole thing falls to pieces, and it will ruin our reputation in that particular area where we want to open a temple. What is your suggestion? That we start a small center and then develop it gradually with less, ah, with less inexperienced people . . . We had a small center here . . . Eh? We have had a small center here for nearly a year, eight months. Well, well we are not saying . . . he's not saying that that's going to succeed, but at least it may not be as much of a travesty. Whether or not we are going to succeed at all in India in getting Indians to listen to what we were saying, that is another whole point. But . . . At least we won't be killing ourselves. At least we won't be making it so that in the future we will have to leave India—we will be asked to leave, our visas will be taken away and we will be asked to leave. These things could happen very easily. It is not . . . it is not a . . . it is not a impossible thing. There are places in the world where we can't go already, Singapore—these things have happened. So I feel we should be very, very careful and selective about who we let in . . . In Singapore our men cannot enter. Yeah . . . This has happened. Yeah. There is many places that, although legally we can enter, still, people don't like us, you know. Hmm. Yes. Singapore, legally also we cannot enter. They wouldn't even let you in. I think that his point, I think I . . . we spoke about this in Manila. It was that anywhere in the world, as a general policy, from what I've experienced, is that if one or two people are sent to an area or are in an area and they are given full authority to try to get that population to engage in bhakti - yoga , engage in this process, that that gradual development with the local people, that has more effect than, than if we bring in a big party and try to do a big thing. And then, then the person has to get strong who is doing it. If I have to go somewhere, then I have to . . . I have to get strong for myself; I have to, you know, start from scratch. Yeah I know, I know the difficulty they are having, sannyāsīs have here, because many of these devotees think it is more like a tour, vacation, to come to India. They don't have to follow the rules and regulations. Right. They are only temporarily or they are just passing through. But it is very difficult, I know. But still we have to try to train somehow. Therefore we cannot establish very big establishment, because they come as a tourist. Yeah. And if the temple is constructed, they would have to be more rigidly controlled. They would have to be managed by people that, by their preaching and by their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can make it so that the people who come and stay in that temple will want to practice bhakti . Can't be a negative aspect thing, a negative motivation. You're not going to keep . . . No, such camps, because you're not established. So what are your suggestions? What is to be done? Well . . . Shall we reduce, devotees? Yes, we have our base in Calcutta . . . Eh? We have our base in Bombay, those two places. Ah. Those are important cities in the world. And Vṛndāvana, as long as our temple is not constructed, we should minimize? Yes. So then automatically there is no question of devotees sleeping. No. Because not everyone is going to, ah, want to be, ah, you know. If the temple is not there, where the devotees can just come and fall into the schedule and program and activities . . . Yes. . . . then they will not want to maintain any standard themselves. They will just fall back immediately into their old habits naturally. Of course, if we could, we could enter the negotiation and save it for a future date, because it won't be available . . . I don't think we need to worry about that. (laughs) Eh? I think that if we, if we don't worry about the material thing at all, that if we do these . . . we start and we have a spiritual base, that it will grow naturally and Kṛṣṇa will provide us with any material facilities we need. We don't need to try to get things for the future. Yeah. If we have devotees, then . . . That's why I was thinking Kṛṣṇa doesn't want us to have it, really. Yes. What is the use of having a giant temple if we are all . . . (laughs) We see that all over India. They have giant temples, but no . . . Management. No management. As far as the men, since I think a lot of them are even . . . some cases they are sending problem cases to India, people they can't manage in the States. (laughter) I think that maybe if you divide, if you actually . . . since in the States you divided the States into territories, and certain men have certain territories, if you maybe appoint certain people in charge of territories of India and ask them which men they want, then they will tell you who they want, and the rest they can send away or send somewhere else. Then you will have solid centers, because the men will actually be desired. That's . . . so we make that. Needed. Isn't that . . . didn't Śaṅkarācārya do that? Divide it four parts? Yes. We have . . . Śaṅkarācārya was concerned in India. Yeah. But we are preaching all over the world. Therefore we have divided four, eh, twelve, twelve zones. Hmm. Our . . . my idea is like that, Śaṅkarācārya. But India itself could be divided even, a few parts for preaching . . . That is already divided: Calcutta, Bombay, Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. So the men in charge, they could say which men they wanted to keep, and the rest they could sent somewhere else, and that way you would have men who were willing to work on the project. And they who are not willing to work, they could also be sent somewhere else. So make something like that, because I cannot tax my brain with the administration. Yeah. Well Tamāla Kṛṣṇa will be in Hyderabad. We, eh, physically I am weak. I have decided if I have to see to the administration then I cannot think of writing books . . . Hmm. . . . how to present our philosophy to be understandable by the people. Therefore the administration is divided. Now you do it. Little intelligence. You have got still respect. Keep our standard; people will like us. People will also give us service. Just like this big sannyāsī , already the biggest sannyāsī , congressman, he is attracted, but he is a man of immense resource, men and money, eh. Immense resources. We have to be careful not to . . . Eh? Not to, erm . . . Offend them. . . . offend these people . . . Yes. . . . and make spiritual . . . So, not offend. There is no question of offending. We should behave ourselves very nicely. Offending or pleasing, that is not relevant. No. You cannot offend everyone, neither you can please everyone. That is not possible. You keep to your standard. Hmm. Not . . . You keep to your own standard, then everything, everyone will see, "Oh, it is nice". Offending . . . you cannot please everyone; that is not possible, even if you behave very nicely. Caitanya Mahāprabhu could not please everyone. He had to start civil disobedience. Even Gandhi was killed. That is not possible. You cannot please everyone, but you must stick to your own principle and behave like that, just see. All right. (Devotees talking amongst themselves) (indistinct) . . . someone said that, Prabhupāda said respect it (indistinct) You can make offerings to it. Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda said offer whatever you get to it. Offer it products. And food. Whatever you get. Can you do this transfer? Now this is . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- April 5, 1976, Vrndavana . . . the money is spent and everything is going nicely. Disorganized. Yes, management, management means everything is in order. If there is no manager . . . Otherwise, what is the use of assembling together? There should be some sannyāsī to step forward. Sometimes, though, it is hard to maintain this routine. You yourself told the devotees not to go out and purchase excessive amounts of sweets, but that didn't check them. They are still in the sweet shops continually. This morning, I woke a . . . I went to wake a devotee up. I woke him up at a quarter to four. I said: "Prabhu, you want to get up now? It's about four o'clock, time to wake." So he didn't wake, but I went ahead and bathed, because I want to do that. And then I come back, and it was almost time for ārati . So I said, "If you're not going to bathe, at least get out of bed and come to ārati ." But he wouldn't do even that much. So what can you do under these conditions? When you tell somebody, you can't physically . . . Well, the whole idea is if you create a spiritual atmosphere that is so enlivening that everyone will want to participate in it. That is the solution. You can't individually treat each person. You have to get the whole thing generated by . . . by pouring water on the root. If they sit down for chanting, they should automatically . . . they come. If one is late, then you can say: "Well, why did you not come?" But if there is no chanting, no sitting, simply "Wake up, wake up, wake up!" "All right, I am waking up," that is show. But one may wake up or not, you begin your work immediately. With regard to the ārati . . . How? We go to the, up into the temple for the ārati , so he stays in bed and sleeps, and we go to the ārati . No, that if he stays on the bed, then he should be asked to leave. Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Not that fighting. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Yes? I just want to say one thing, but this . . . and then I will leave, because this is a meeting of the management bureau. But I saw the boy after he was beaten, and as far as I was . . . That I have seen later . . . That was very cruel, erm . . . it looked very cruel to me. It looked like he was beaten with boards. Criminal. So, erm, I don't think . . . if it happened to me, I would sue, if that happened to me. The boy's eye could be put out. That is not good, under any circumstances. That we are discussing. That already . . . (indistinct) *The whole thing is that we are sure about a crisis in India in terms of our presence here. Our prestige has hit an all*-time low simply because of our conduct, that's all. Not because of our teaching or our, our . . . because we're white or anything like that. It is just because of our conduct—it is so bad, abominable. We don't . . . (indistinct) . . . right compared with the Indian sannyāsīs in our conduct. So can we expect to . . . to honor Śrīla Prabhupāda if we conduct ourselves like that? So it is our, our, our responsibility as the leaders not to avoid it, not to avoid the other devotees, but to train them now, begin training. Yes, this is Vaiṣṇava training. Now we should have our routine work. Just like here: punctual. As soon as I see seven, I ask where this is happening, kīrtana vidhi . As soon it as it is five, I immediately ask. So there may be a small assembly, but the routine work must be followed. If somebody is sleeping and the kīrtana is going on, or the morning program is going on, so he may be said that, "If you sleep like that, then you cannot be here." I said that to that boy previously. I told him not to do that. That's all right, but why you . . . (indistinct) . . . something, pour water on his body? Simply to waken him. You should not do anything which may provoke some reaction. (background whispering) So best thing was to say that he is not in good shape. Say to me that he is incorrigible, and I could have asked him, "Don't . . ." Now he's finished. He may leave one day. Once, twice, if he does not follow, then we shall ask him just to "Please leave this place." That's all. That should be our manifesto. And we should also. The police said that, when I told him that our regulation is that everyone should get up at four, so he immediately replied: "I don't see anyone rising at four. Nobody." What can I answer? How can he say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can he see if anyone is rising at four or not? No, here he can. Because we have a space like that, can be seen. Open spaces, morning, he can identify here. Just by your sight. But he is rising. I am rising. He is rising, but others. Some others are rising. None . . . not all, but some of them are rising. The whole point is that the sannyāsīs must see that that standard is kept to the highest. That is their job. That is why you take sannyāsa . But that should be observed, and peacefully it should be settled. If it is not peacefully settled, the man who is continually disobeying, he should be simply asked, "Please go." You cannot beat him. That will . . . Who has the authority to say to somebody "Please go" or not? Eh? Who has the authority to tell a person "Please go"? We don't know . . . I don't know who has that authority. The president will say. So long I am here, I shall say . . . (indistinct) This, this daṇḍa gives authority to the . . . That gives authority. That gives authority. Not in ISKCON. Not in ISKCON. Yes it does, in the US. No, they do not respect sannyāsīs . Yes they do. No, they don't. Because you may not deserve it, then. Now I am getting so . . . the thing is, they may say like, that but behind my back they talk so many things . . . If they do not obey the orders of the sannyāsīs , then naturally . . . but that thing should be brought to the notice at hand, some official president. The case should be taken that if you cannot follow the rules and regulations, you must leave. There is . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no question of fighting. First thing is that the sannyāsīs , leaders, they should behave themselves according to the rules and regulations and then ask others to follow. The others, they do not follow: once, twice excuse; three times, "Please go away." If you follow strictly the principles then you will be automatically respected. Now if I wanted to ask someone to leave, but how does he leave? Do we have to buy him his ticket or something? There was a boy, one Indian, Indra . . . Indrarāja . . . Leave means he can go to another center. I wanted to ask him to leave, but where would he go? Who will pay for his way out? What do you mean? One thing is, that is ultimate. We are canvassing, we are preaching to bring men . . . Here. To get them out is not our business. Hmm. That is not our business, that's all. But if he is incorrigible, it is not . . . then he must leave. That is . . . if you're making so much preaching, why? To bring men, not to ask them to go. If for some paltry reason you ask, that is not . . . when he is incorrigible, first of all you have to try to encourage him. That is preaching. Our preaching means that people are misled. We have to train them in such a way they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our mandate. But if he is completely incorrigible, then he will be asked. Not . . . otherwise it is not our business that as soon as we see something we should think wrong. He must be trained by our example, by our teaching, by our word. Eh? Santa . . . santa chindanti, uktibhiḥ ( SB 11.26.26), by word, by example, he should be corrected. If I cannot correct him by my words and example, that is also my intimidation. Because they have . . . you cannot expect that everyone has come here, sādhu . That's not. You collect from ordinary men, but we have to make him sādhu . That is preaching. That is preaching. That you have to do tactfully. Not that because one is . . . incorrigible men, after trying all our ways, if he is still incorrigible, then you can ask. Not that for fancy reasons, he should not be . . . "Get out." That "Get out," if you made, then everything has to be "Get out." That is not the policy. The policy is first of to correct him. That is preaching. As far as possible by example, by teaching, by everything. Hmm, engaging. *By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If at the school and does not learn nicely, you cannot say: "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then we have to ask. And if there is money required, you have to manage your money. What can be done? But I don't think, if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be practiced. He is after all human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourselves. Āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi. We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly, come to . . . (indistinct) . . . how you can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpane ācare prabhu jīva . First of all you have to behave. If one is not cleansing, you should take . . . (indistinct) . . . just like I have to sometimes: "Not this way but this way." We have to do like that. Not that I command, "You do this," "I cannot do it," "Ah, get out!" Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for teaching, and that teaching means one should behave himself nicely. He cannot say that "You do not do this." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda*-kumāra. You . . . he was accusing you; you were accusing him. I heard from God. (laughter) So you should do in such a way that he cannot accuse you. If you ask him to rise early in the morning and take your bath, and if you do not take . . . eh? But in some special case . . . I was taking early bath; now I do not take, because due to my health. That is different. Otherwise regularly I was taking, not even hot water. This hot water bath I have begun in your country; otherwise I have never took, even in the severest cold. Here also I am trying to avoid; I'm keeping this tub of water. Sunshine, whatever little warm it becomes, that's all. So for special health reasons one cannot rise, he is sick. Not generally. Otherwise everyone should rise early in the morning and take bath and be ready for performing in our centers by six o'clock, by five o'clock. And the kīrtana party, you should have everyone go. It may be small distance, but all our men should go. That will be real welfare, seeing the early in the morning so many parties come. From 3.30. *Three*-thirty. So you behave yourself and others will follow. What is that? Cleanliness and following the routine work. That is our method. You must be very clean, neat and clean, rise early in the morning, and we have got our duties. *Just like yesterday. Yesterday Dvija*-hari came over and said he couldn't get anyone to clean the temple. No one would clean, over at Keśī-ghāṭa. I said: "But there are so many sannyāsīs there, ask them to organize the cleansing party." He said: "Oh, no one would clean. They will not do it." So it doesn't . . . Why not? Some people should be engaged, you have to get them cleaning. They won't, then you have to show them how. You do it also. Because so many people have come and gone. We had a cleaning group and they left for other parties. No, but I'm just saying there are many men there who could have cleaned, but they refused to do it, because they are following your examples. I am cleaning my room, I am cleaning outside also. You just haven't seen it. Anyway, whatever is done is done. This should be followed like that No, I'm not criticizing . . . That, āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi , this should be the principle. One should teach others by behaving himself correctly, then it will be all right. Everyone should remain clean, everyone should rise early in the morning, study, do some work, routine work. So then you can ask, "Why you're not trying? Why you're not doing?" Then he will be ashamed . . . (indistinct) . . . so this principle should be followed, āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi . Is it not? Yes, well, for myself in particular I don't think that many people take my words very heavily. There is so much bad talking about me. First they say the songs are māyā , then the tunes are māyā . Behind my back I hear all kinds of things they say. So nobody takes my word seriously. Even though I may quote from many scriptures, they don't respect me. What is this māyā ? Hmm? The songs are māyā ? Hare Kṛṣṇa? As soon as I left Calcutta, all the bhajanas , they were all, "Oh, that's, that's Gauḍīya Maṭha poison." Then "Okay, the songs are all right but the tunes are poison." I . . . Now how can I overcome this? I heard something in reference to that. You wrote one of the devotees in Calcutta, you wrote . . . he came to Bombay, Bhavānanda, and he said that he had signed a letter, something like, "I pray that I may be engaged in the service of my Guru Mahārāja," and you wrote back, "We are personalists to the letter, so that when we say: "Guru Mahārāja," we always say the name, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda or Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. We don't just leave it in as vague "Guru Mahārāja." " So we were singing Jaya Prabhupāda, or Jaya gurudeva , and he was saying, "Well, that is impersonalist." *Also he says nitāi*-gaura haribol, that is also . . . that is māyā . What is that? So he was saying that all these bhajanas , they're . . . they are not bona fide because they are . . . *Nitāi*-gaura haribol is not bona fide? Who said that, not bona fide? Well not that. He was saying that jaya gurudeva, jaya Prabhupāda, that was not good. Eh? He was saying that is not good, " jaya gurudeva ," because it does not say who. It just says gurudeva ; it could be any gurudeva . So he was criticizing that. Who was? Bhavānanda, because of the letter you wrote to him saying that we are personalists to the letter. So it means that I am a Māyāvādī. That is what it means. Well, it's a matter of overall conduct, not just individual specific things. That overall I am a Māyāvādī. I find that overall the bad atmosphere in India, the resentment against many of the devotees, party politics and different things like that are going on, which is not limited; it is going on all over . . . That's very heavy . . . *Just like with . . . just like with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. He has . . . has the respect of everyone now because he's doing such a good job of managing. He's just doing, he is performing nicely his devotional work, and he is getting some results. That's respect. Then you will get respect. Bali*-mardana Mahārāja, he has built up ISKCON Press, 'til it is just like that (snaps fingers), and everyone touches his feet when they see him. You don't find anyone disrespecting him, because he is performing his duties. You automatically get respect if you perform something nicely. Not just say: "Oh, the atmosphere is bad . . ." Well, we have got many faults we can find out, but generally if I behave nicely others will follow. That is the principle. I may have some faults, you may some. We are not liberated paramahaṁsas ; we are all trying. So generally we should behave very nicely according to rules and regulations: chanting sixteen rounds, rising early in the morning. Particularly maybe there is some discrepancies here and there. So . . . generally it is our general rules and . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all rising early in the morning, if he cleans, and if they read for a . . . (indistinct) . . . if these things are followed, chant sixteen rounds, then everything is there. *In your lectures you emphasize two aspects that must be there: jñāna and renunciation. So some knowledge is there, but the part of the difficulty is that with most of the devotees in every temple in India is that they have not renounced these dirty things completely. They still are attached to sense gratification even on gross levels. So whether a sannyāsī or anybody interferes with their sense gratification, they tend to not oblige, because they are attached to doing things the way they want, and they think because they are in a foreign country, here a long way from America, where the standards are very rigid, that they can do any manner of nonsense and nobody would check them. And if you try to correct them, then they will only do it behind your back. We have seen this with the sweet shops, with rising early, anything that interferes with them doing exactly as they please. They don't want to oblige. And this is in Calcutta, this is in Bombay, and it is happening here in Vṛndāvana. It is not something that is isolated here to the Palace, but the devotees all over, they are just behaving on a level of sense gratification, and that is why there is so much rajas*-guṇa in the temples. So much rajas-guṇa . This is a fact. But how to correct it if you do not correct yourself? How it can happen? Well we . . . many of us have tried to correct our self, and as a result we have been accused of being separatists simply because we don't want to go along with the nonsense that everybody else is doing, but we want to maintain some standard for our self, of reading and chanting, because we don't want to sit down and talk nonsense or do nonsense. And if you try to stop them, they will not stop. So why should we fall down to that level? So we behave as separatists. We go into our room and we will read, or we will go into our room and chant, or we will try to keep ourselves clean or try and do these things, and that is separatism because it is not falling into the level of māyā that is going on everywhere else in the temple—engaging in party politics and all these other things. That is . . . that is what I feel about it. Most of the devotees, they seem out of place . . . Now what is done is done. Now you try to correct others by behaving yourselves. Otherwise there is no need of keeping so many men. We have attempted this in Vṛndāvana. A few men may remain here, that's all. Otherwise it would be not very nice to attract. People are attracted by seeing your behavior. They are seeing that all Europeans and Americans, they have adopted such nice Vaiṣṇava culture. There are attracted from that point. But if we are not to the standard point, they immediately appeal, "Oh they are useless". So that should be corrected. The same principle: āpane ācare prabhu . . . they should behave also nicely and teach others; then it will be . . . What co . . . *And another, this is general principle. Now we have discussed, now you try to follow. And another thing that, that Keśī*-ghāṭa, shall we make further progress? We have acquired that property obviously dropped. What is your opinion? From the circumstances, and that is now, because any temple it must be nicely, very nicely managed; otherwise we cannot maintain. Our Los Angeles temple, you know we attract people, you know it is so nicely managed, very nicely managed. You have seen? So unless . . . and that means there must be sufficient men to manage. Such a big temple . . . I don't . . . Eh? *I don't think that, that there is enough people to clean up and manage and keep clean Keśī*-ghāṭa. Maybe in the future sometime, but . . . At the present it is not. It is so big, so big. Also, the quality of people that are there, the mass people of a higher quality and a smaller place would do much more good. Like I was in the Philippines by myself, all alone, but still, the work could go on much quicker because I could avoid all of this. I could avoid all of this with what we are having right now. I could avoid it completely because there was nobody there to cause it. All new people. So . . . Everybody here knows everything. (several devotees laugh) As, like . . . It goes up very quickly, because the people are automatically attracted, and then you teach them, you train them. So last, Americans, and just one or two people that want to manage, and then start with the people here, the Indian people. And as they develop and become strong, then develop a center. It may take a long time, but it will be solid, be more solid then. Just bring a bunch of Americans here, and then the whole thing falls to pieces, and it will ruin our reputation in that particular area where we want to open a temple. What is your suggestion? That we start a small center and then develop it gradually with less, ah, with less inexperienced people . . . We had a small center here . . . Eh? We have had a small center here for nearly a year, eight months. Well, well we are not saying . . . he's not saying that that's going to succeed, but at least it may not be as much of a travesty. Whether or not we are going to succeed at all in India in getting Indians to listen to what we were saying, that is another whole point. But . . . At least we won't be killing ourselves. At least we won't be making it so that in the future we will have to leave India—we will be asked to leave, our visas will be taken away and we will be asked to leave. These things could happen very easily. It is not . . . it is not a . . . it is not a impossible thing. There are places in the world where we can't go already, Singapore—these things have happened. So I feel we should be very, very careful and selective about who we let in . . . In Singapore our men cannot enter. Yeah . . . This has happened. Yeah. There is many places that, although legally we can enter, still, people don't like us, you know. Hmm. Yes. Singapore, legally also we cannot enter. They wouldn't even let you in. I think that his point, I think I . . . we spoke about this in Manila. It was that anywhere in the world, as a general policy, from what I've experienced, is that if one or two people are sent to an area or are in an area and they are given full authority to try to get that population to engage in bhakti - yoga , engage in this process, that that gradual development with the local people, that has more effect than, than if we bring in a big party and try to do a big thing. And then, then the person has to get strong who is doing it. If I have to go somewhere, then I have to . . . I have to get strong for myself; I have to, you know, start from scratch. Yeah I know, I know the difficulty they are having, sannyāsīs have here, because many of these devotees think it is more like a tour, vacation, to come to India. They don't have to follow the rules and regulations. Right. They are only temporarily or they are just passing through. But it is very difficult, I know. But still we have to try to train somehow. Therefore we cannot establish very big establishment, because they come as a tourist. Yeah. And if the temple is constructed, they would have to be more rigidly controlled. They would have to be managed by people that, by their preaching and by their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can make it so that the people who come and stay in that temple will want to practice bhakti . Can't be a negative aspect thing, a negative motivation. You're not going to keep . . . No, such camps, because you're not established. So what are your suggestions? What is to be done? Well . . . Shall we reduce, devotees? Yes, we have our base in Calcutta . . . Eh? We have our base in Bombay, those two places. Ah. Those are important cities in the world. And Vṛndāvana, as long as our temple is not constructed, we should minimize? Yes. So then automatically there is no question of devotees sleeping. No. Because not everyone is going to, ah, want to be, ah, you know. If the temple is not there, where the devotees can just come and fall into the schedule and program and activities . . . Yes. . . . then they will not want to maintain any standard themselves. They will just fall back immediately into their old habits naturally. Of course, if we could, we could enter the negotiation and save it for a future date, because it won't be available . . . I don't think we need to worry about that. (laughs) Eh? I think that if we, if we don't worry about the material thing at all, that if we do these . . . we start and we have a spiritual base, that it will grow naturally and Kṛṣṇa will provide us with any material facilities we need. We don't need to try to get things for the future. Yeah. If we have devotees, then . . . That's why I was thinking Kṛṣṇa doesn't want us to have it, really. Yes. What is the use of having a giant temple if we are all . . . (laughs) We see that all over India. They have giant temples, but no . . . Management. No management. As far as the men, since I think a lot of them are even . . . some cases they are sending problem cases to India, people they can't manage in the States. (laughter) I think that maybe if you divide, if you actually . . . since in the States you divided the States into territories, and certain men have certain territories, if you maybe appoint certain people in charge of territories of India and ask them which men they want, then they will tell you who they want, and the rest they can send away or send somewhere else. Then you will have solid centers, because the men will actually be desired. That's . . . so we make that. Needed. Isn't that . . . didn't Śaṅkarācārya do that? Divide it four parts? Yes. We have . . . Śaṅkarācārya was concerned in India. Yeah. But we are preaching all over the world. Therefore we have divided four, eh, twelve, twelve zones. Hmm. Our . . . my idea is like that, Śaṅkarācārya. But India itself could be divided even, a few parts for preaching . . . That is already divided: Calcutta, Bombay, Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. So the men in charge, they could say which men they wanted to keep, and the rest they could sent somewhere else, and that way you would have men who were willing to work on the project. And they who are not willing to work, they could also be sent somewhere else. So make something like that, because I cannot tax my brain with the administration. Yeah. Well Tamāla Kṛṣṇa will be in Hyderabad. We, eh, physically I am weak. I have decided if I have to see to the administration then I cannot think of writing books . . . Hmm. . . . how to present our philosophy to be understandable by the people. Therefore the administration is divided. Now you do it. Little intelligence. You have got still respect. Keep our standard; people will like us. People will also give us service. Just like this big sannyāsī , already the biggest sannyāsī , congressman, he is attracted, but he is a man of immense resource, men and money, eh. Immense resources. We have to be careful not to . . . Eh? Not to, erm . . . Offend them. . . . offend these people . . . Yes. . . . and make spiritual . . . So, not offend. There is no question of offending. We should behave ourselves very nicely. Offending or pleasing, that is not relevant. No. You cannot offend everyone, neither you can please everyone. That is not possible. You keep to your standard. Hmm. Not . . . You keep to your own standard, then everything, everyone will see, "Oh, it is nice". Offending . . . you cannot please everyone; that is not possible, even if you behave very nicely. Caitanya Mahāprabhu could not please everyone. He had to start civil disobedience. Even Gandhi was killed. That is not possible. You cannot please everyone, but you must stick to your own principle and behave like that, just see. All right. (Devotees talking amongst themselves) (indistinct) . . . someone said that, Prabhupāda said respect it (indistinct) You can make offerings to it. Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda said offer whatever you get to it. Offer it products. And food. Whatever you get. Can you do this transfer? Now this is . . . (break) (end) Conversation A in Hindi -- April 6, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation in Hindi (Some English) During Lunch) HINDI TRANSCRIPTION भक्त: (घोषणा करते हुए) यह है। . . (अस्पष्ट) . . . वृन्दावन में, दोपहर के भोजन के समय। पहले तो जो गुरु हैं उनको प्रणाम करें। परन्तु बात ये नहीं है की हमलोग जन्म से जिससे अटैच्ड हैं। इसमें बहुत झगड़ा है। प्रभुपाद: क्या झगड़ा है? भक्त: प्रमाण है। प्रभुपाद: शास्त्र प्रमाण है। भक्त: ये आपका शिष्य जो कार्ल मास्टरजी के साथ गए थे इनसे पूछिए। है, है, तो क्या बोला? प्रभुपाद: क्या? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: है, है, तो क्या बोला? भक्त: मैं एहि बोला वो आपको सौ । दुसरे वर्ण के गुण पाए जाये अगर ब्राह्मण में शूद्र के गुण पाए जाये तो उसे शूद्र समझना चाहिए, ब्राह्मण नही। और वो आपने हमको बताया था श्रीमद भागवतम के स्कन्द से श्लोक में वो बोले की तीन प्रकार का शेर होता है। शेर वो तीन प्रकार का होता है, लायन। तो एक लायन उसको कहते हैं जो असली लायन। दूसरा लायन उसको कहते हैं जो लायन जैसा आदमी है। तीसरा लायन जो है सिर्फ पिक्चर का लायन। तो इस प्रकार तो एक ही है लेकिन भेद है। तो इस वाक्य के अंदर । प्रभुपाद: जो जैन श्रीधर स्वामी, वीर राघवाचार्य, विश्वनाथ चक्रवर्ती, भक्त: वो उनके जो दो-चार शिष्य थे हमको बोलने नहीं दिए, वो समझे की वो बहुत बड़े हैं और हम बहुत छोटे हैं। हम ज्यादा बोल नहीं सके। चैतन्य संप्रदाय में, रामानुजा संप्रदाय में, सब आपस में । वो लोग तो बोलता है की हम जो बोलता है वो शास्त्र है। ये जो आपका हरिद्वार में आये थे मध्वा संप्रदाय का एक आचार्य। तो वो बोलै के शास्त्रार्थ करेगा। जो विभूति है भगवान का है। भक्त: हम बताया की माना की एक दोष है। आप ९९९ गुण नहीं देखते हैं और एक दोष देखते हैं और उसको रिजेक्ट कर देते हैं। ये शायद आपके फिलॉस्फी के विपरीत, अलग है, भिन्न है। फिर भी आप देख सकते है की सारी दुनिया में किस तरह से विचार है। प्रभुपाद: हम उसको पकड़ते नहीं। श्रीधर स्वामी, वीर राघवाचार्य, विश्वनाथ चक्रवर्ती, जीव गोस्वामी, बड़े-बड़े सब आचार्य, वो सब अपने टिका में सपोर्ट करते हैं। वो तो बोला नहीं के तीन प्रकार का शेर होता है। ये सब बताया नहीं। एक शेर । बाकि ये जो भारत की दुर्दशा है झूट-मूट । अर्चे विष्णु शिलाधीर। जैसे भगवान का मूर्ति दर्शन करने के लिए सारा दुनिया से इधर आते हैं। और कोई आकरके ये तो पत्थर है जी, इसको देखने के लिए इतना मुर्ख आदमी सब आते हैं। बोलता है, आर्य समाज बोलता है। भक्त: हमलोग के यहाँ प्राण प्रतिष्ठा होने से मूर्ति में भगवान हैं। प्रभुपाद: प्राण प्रतिष्ठा जो शूद्र है वो ब्राह्मण प्रतिष्ठा नहीं हो सकेगा? एक पत्थर में प्राण प्रतिष्ठा होता है और एक जीवित है उसमे वैष्णव प्रतिष्ठा नहीं। देखिये क्या । पत्थर में प्राण प्रतिष्ठा और एक जीवित में, उसमे कोई प्रतिष्ठा नहीं। वो पत्थर से भी ज़बरदस्त है। ये विचार है। इफ यू कैन गिव लाइफ टू ए पत्थर, यू कन्नोट गिव ए लिविंग बीइंग कृष्ण भक्ति? भक्त: भक्ति का तो। प्रभुपाद: तो फिर और क्या है? भक्त: भक्ति का तो बहुत आदर करते हैं। पिछले जमाने में बोलते है हमारा हरिदास चमार था। प्रभुपाद: हमारा तो हरिदास ठाकुर मुस्लमान था। उसको हरिदास ठाकुर को अद्वैता आचार्य, प्रेजिडेंट ऑफ़ दी ब्राह्मण शांतिपुर उनको वो स्वाद पात्र दिया। तो वो हरिदास ठाकुर उनको बोला “अद्वैता प्रभु आप तो हमको बहुत यत्न करते हैं बाकि ये जो स्वाद पात्र हमको दिया इसमें तो आपको समाज में बड़ा मुश्किल रहेगा”। तो वो चैलेंज किया की कौन ऐसा ब्राह्मण है हमसे आ करके वो तर्क करें। हम जानते हैं की आपको खिलने से एक हज़ार ब्राह्मण का जो फल होता है वो मिलेगा। वो खामोश था। अद्वैता आचार्य जो ब्राह्मण समाज के प्रेजिडेंट उन्होंने कहा की आपको हरिदास ठाकुर मैं भोजन करा दिया एक हज़ार ब्राह्मण को भोजन करने से जो फल मिलता है, और वो था मुस्लमान। वो खुद ही कहा की महाराज आप हमको इतना चाहते हैं। आपको समाज में । और चैतन्य महाप्रभु हरिदास ठाकुर का डेड बॉडी ले करके कीर्तन किया, और उनका स्पष्ट बात है ये चैतन्य महाप्रभु कहा की चाहे ब्रह्मण होए चाहे शूद्र होए, और चाहे गृहस्त होए चाहे सन्यासी वो अगर कृष्ण प्राप्ति, कृष्ण तत्त्व वित्त है तो वो। “किबा विप्र, किबा न्यासी, शूद्र केने नए” इसलिए चैतन्य महाप्रभु प्रमाण स्वरुप ये हरिदास ठाकुर को नामचार्य बनाया, वेदांत आचार्य। ये नाम का आचार्य। नाम प्रचार करने को आया खुद आचार्य नहीं बना वो हरिदास ठाकुर को आचार्य बनाया, नामचार्य। इसलिए हमलोग जय कहते हैं नामचार्य श्रीला हरिदास ठाकुर की जय। है ये सब विचार तो इंडिया में ही रहेगा। अब तो बहार में और है। भक्त: ये तो किताब हम देखा नहीं। प्रभुपाद: इसका एक सीक्रेट है। प्रभुपाद: चैतन्य महाप्रभु किया। उन्होंने भविष्य वाणी कर दिया था प्रभुपाद: ये हम कभी बोला नहीं था आज बोल रहे हैं। सीक्रेट है की हम हम सोच रहा था। जब तक गुरु महाराज बोला की तुम वेस्टर्न कंट्री में जाओ और अंग्रेजी में प्रचार करो हम सोच रहे हैं की ये जो जब हम बोलेंगे की मीट ईटिंग, इल्लिसित सेक्स, मदिरा सेवन । बाकि ये हमारा दृढ़ विश्वास था जब चैतन्य महाप्रभु बोल दिया की सारा दुनिये में हमारा नाम प्रचार करो, ये कैसे गलत हो सकता है। ये हमारा विश्वास था। इसलिए ये वृन्दावन में सत्तर वर्ष आयु में हमने सोचा की गुरु महाराज ने बोला था, चैतन्य महाप्रभु बताये, चलो एक दफे हम ट्राई करते हैं। तो वो सक्सेस हुआ तो ये उनलोग का आशीर्वाद है। मैं तो होपलेस था की ये हो कैसे सकता है। बाकि ये विश्वास। ये विश्वास की चैतन्य महाप्रभु बोलै है तो जरूर होने वाला है। भक्त: ट्राई करते हैं (हंसी) प्रभुपाद: ये हमारा अट्टू विश्वास। चैतन्य महाप्रभु बताया है की सारा पृथ्वी इसको ग्रहण करे तो होपलेस होते हुए भी चलो एक दफा ट्राई करे। ये दृढ़ विश्वास। चैतन्य चरितामृत में बताये हैं "श्रद्धा शब्दे विश्वास सुदृढ़ निश्चय"। श्रद्धा वो उसी को श्रद्धा बोलै जाता है जिसका विश्वास सुदृढ़ निश्चय। कृष्णा भक्ति कैले। इतना तो हमारा विश्वास पूर्ण। आप सीक्रेट ऑफ़ सक्सेस चाहते थे एहि है सीक्रेट, विश्वास। कुयूं नहीं। चैतन्य फालतू बात बोलै है? भक्त: आप ने तो अमेरिका में कर दिया। मेरी भावना ये की आपको प्रभु प्रेम आ गयी है। ये तो कल हम गोवर्धन गया था भाई ये तो बड़ी विभूति है। आपके बारे में सब बात हुआ। हम बोले सब ऐसा-ऐसा है इतना । तब वो बोलै की कोई भी सक्सेस नहीं हुआ। वो क्या नाम है महेश योगी फ़ैल हो गया। कितना आदमी लोग गया, आप सक्सेस जो गए। प्रभुपाद: ये जो महेश योगी है न, इसका सेक्रेटरी, खास साथ में रहता है। वो उनको पूछा महाराज हम तो भगवान को चाहते हैं। हम तो भगवान को चाहते हैं। उनको मास्टरजी बोला की अगर तुम भगवान को चाहते हो तो, भक्ति वेदांत स्वामी , वो बोल दिया। भक्त: उनके पर्सनल थे, वो उनसे अलग हो गए। महेश योगी का सीक्रेट हमलोग जानता है क्यूंकि । ये शंकराचार्य थे न उनका शिष्य । तो बाद में उनसे अलग हो करके कुछ नहीं था। प्रभुपाद: उनका जो फिलोसोफी है, ये जो यूरोप, अमेरिकन है, जो योग-योग के पीछे जाते हैं, । ये जो सत्ता है योग कहके ठग-ठगके कुछ रूपया । भक्त: और इसी प्रभाव में बहुत इंडियन लोग भी है। । क्यूंकि उधर गर्मी की मौसम में बहुत आदमी लोग सत्संग में जाता है न । वो अपना गुरु से झगड़ा किया, वो बोलता है उनको पाइजन भी वोही दिया, फिर उनका ग्रुप था, वो मर गया, दूसरा कोई जो गया । प्रभुपाद: मुस्लमान को भी दीक्षा दिया। भक्त: यहां है क्या? (हंसी) प्रभुपाद: भक्त: तो महाराज ये है । मैंने आपकी बड़ी हिस्ट्री पढ़ी है। प्रभुपाद: ये अहमदाबाद में कोई स्वामी वो जगद्गुरु लिखता है। तो उसको चैलेंज करता है आप जगद्गुरु लिखा है, जगत कभी देखा भी है? इंडिया के बहार कभी गया? क्यों । भक्त: ठीक कहा। महाराज जी तो खुद सेल्फ-स्ट्य्लेड हैं। यहाँ भी एक हैं, मैं नाम नहीं लूँगा, वो महामण्डलेश्वर प्रभुपाद: अरे हमारा तो ये फिलोसोफी नहीं है जो हिन्दू मुस्लमान । भक्त: लेकिन, आप ऑटोमेटिकली । प्रभुपाद: कोई क्रिस्चियन को पूछता है क्रिस्चियन धर्म से भगवान की प्राप्ति हो सकती है की नहीं? शास्त्र में बताया उसको पालन करो। अब जैसे जीसस क्राइस्ट बोलता है "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" बट यू आर वैरी एक्सपर्ट इन किलिंग, व्हाट काइंड ऑफ़ क्रिस्चियन यू आर? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: असल में क्रिस्चियन वास्तविक हो । ये मुस्लमान है ठीक से अगर । क्यूंकि ये तो सब का अधिकार है की आदमी को भगवान का नाम सुनाये। मुस्लमान को जोकि उनको पांच दफे मस्जिद में जा करके सर झुका करके । तो ऐसा देश, काल, पात्र का उसमे रहेगा। ये तो आपको बाकि जो काम करने वाला है वो कहाँ तक भगवान का विषय कोई उसको समझाए। उसी । ये क्रिस्चियन लोग जो यहाँ देखिये टेन कमांडमेंट्स में है की "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" और जीसस क्राइस्ट को ही पहले क्रूसिफ़ाइ कर दिया। किस थे वो लोग? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: वो मना किया की किल नहीं करो और वो किल किया आपको पहले। भक्त: मैं आपको मिलने आये थे उनसे क्या बात कहूँ? प्रभुपाद: उनकी इच्छा है। ये जो आपका इधर में रिलिजन है, आप इधर क्यों । ये हमारा रिलिजन है नहीं उधर जाईये। देख के बोला इधर भी रिलिजन है नहीं। क्यूंकि क्राइस्ट बोलता है "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" और सब लोग किल करते हैं। भक्त: प्रभुपाद: से बोल रहा है। इधर तो रिलिजन है। हम तो करते हैं। उधर चर्च में है क्या, उधर कोई रिलिजन है नहीं। भक्त: प्रभुपाद: नहीं, मैं भी उसको जवाब दिया की इधर रिलिजन है। भक्त: हरे कृष्णा। Conversation A in Hindi -- April 6, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation in Hindi (Some English) During Lunch) HINDI TRANSCRIPTION भक्त: (घोषणा करते हुए) यह है। . . (अस्पष्ट) . . . वृन्दावन में, दोपहर के भोजन के समय। पहले तो जो गुरु हैं उनको प्रणाम करें। परन्तु बात ये नहीं है की हमलोग जन्म से जिससे अटैच्ड हैं। इसमें बहुत झगड़ा है। प्रभुपाद: क्या झगड़ा है? भक्त: प्रमाण है। प्रभुपाद: शास्त्र प्रमाण है। भक्त: ये आपका शिष्य जो कार्ल मास्टरजी के साथ गए थे इनसे पूछिए। है, है, तो क्या बोला? प्रभुपाद: क्या? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: है, है, तो क्या बोला? भक्त: मैं एहि बोला वो आपको सौ । दुसरे वर्ण के गुण पाए जाये अगर ब्राह्मण में शूद्र के गुण पाए जाये तो उसे शूद्र समझना चाहिए, ब्राह्मण नही। और वो आपने हमको बताया था श्रीमद भागवतम के स्कन्द से श्लोक में वो बोले की तीन प्रकार का शेर होता है। शेर वो तीन प्रकार का होता है, लायन। तो एक लायन उसको कहते हैं जो असली लायन। दूसरा लायन उसको कहते हैं जो लायन जैसा आदमी है। तीसरा लायन जो है सिर्फ पिक्चर का लायन। तो इस प्रकार तो एक ही है लेकिन भेद है। तो इस वाक्य के अंदर । प्रभुपाद: जो जैन श्रीधर स्वामी, वीर राघवाचार्य, विश्वनाथ चक्रवर्ती, भक्त: वो उनके जो दो-चार शिष्य थे हमको बोलने नहीं दिए, वो समझे की वो बहुत बड़े हैं और हम बहुत छोटे हैं। हम ज्यादा बोल नहीं सके। चैतन्य संप्रदाय में, रामानुजा संप्रदाय में, सब आपस में । वो लोग तो बोलता है की हम जो बोलता है वो शास्त्र है। ये जो आपका हरिद्वार में आये थे मध्वा संप्रदाय का एक आचार्य। तो वो बोलै के शास्त्रार्थ करेगा। जो विभूति है भगवान का है। भक्त: हम बताया की माना की एक दोष है। आप ९९९ गुण नहीं देखते हैं और एक दोष देखते हैं और उसको रिजेक्ट कर देते हैं। ये शायद आपके फिलॉस्फी के विपरीत, अलग है, भिन्न है। फिर भी आप देख सकते है की सारी दुनिया में किस तरह से विचार है। प्रभुपाद: हम उसको पकड़ते नहीं। श्रीधर स्वामी, वीर राघवाचार्य, विश्वनाथ चक्रवर्ती, जीव गोस्वामी, बड़े-बड़े सब आचार्य, वो सब अपने टिका में सपोर्ट करते हैं। वो तो बोला नहीं के तीन प्रकार का शेर होता है। ये सब बताया नहीं। एक शेर । बाकि ये जो भारत की दुर्दशा है झूट-मूट । अर्चे विष्णु शिलाधीर। जैसे भगवान का मूर्ति दर्शन करने के लिए सारा दुनिया से इधर आते हैं। और कोई आकरके ये तो पत्थर है जी, इसको देखने के लिए इतना मुर्ख आदमी सब आते हैं। बोलता है, आर्य समाज बोलता है। भक्त: हमलोग के यहाँ प्राण प्रतिष्ठा होने से मूर्ति में भगवान हैं। प्रभुपाद: प्राण प्रतिष्ठा जो शूद्र है वो ब्राह्मण प्रतिष्ठा नहीं हो सकेगा? एक पत्थर में प्राण प्रतिष्ठा होता है और एक जीवित है उसमे वैष्णव प्रतिष्ठा नहीं। देखिये क्या । पत्थर में प्राण प्रतिष्ठा और एक जीवित में, उसमे कोई प्रतिष्ठा नहीं। वो पत्थर से भी ज़बरदस्त है। ये विचार है। इफ यू कैन गिव लाइफ टू ए पत्थर, यू कन्नोट गिव ए लिविंग बीइंग कृष्ण भक्ति? भक्त: भक्ति का तो। प्रभुपाद: तो फिर और क्या है? भक्त: भक्ति का तो बहुत आदर करते हैं। पिछले जमाने में बोलते है हमारा हरिदास चमार था। प्रभुपाद: हमारा तो हरिदास ठाकुर मुस्लमान था। उसको हरिदास ठाकुर को अद्वैता आचार्य, प्रेजिडेंट ऑफ़ दी ब्राह्मण शांतिपुर उनको वो स्वाद पात्र दिया। तो वो हरिदास ठाकुर उनको बोला “अद्वैता प्रभु आप तो हमको बहुत यत्न करते हैं बाकि ये जो स्वाद पात्र हमको दिया इसमें तो आपको समाज में बड़ा मुश्किल रहेगा”। तो वो चैलेंज किया की कौन ऐसा ब्राह्मण है हमसे आ करके वो तर्क करें। हम जानते हैं की आपको खिलने से एक हज़ार ब्राह्मण का जो फल होता है वो मिलेगा। वो खामोश था। अद्वैता आचार्य जो ब्राह्मण समाज के प्रेजिडेंट उन्होंने कहा की आपको हरिदास ठाकुर मैं भोजन करा दिया एक हज़ार ब्राह्मण को भोजन करने से जो फल मिलता है, और वो था मुस्लमान। वो खुद ही कहा की महाराज आप हमको इतना चाहते हैं। आपको समाज में । और चैतन्य महाप्रभु हरिदास ठाकुर का डेड बॉडी ले करके कीर्तन किया, और उनका स्पष्ट बात है ये चैतन्य महाप्रभु कहा की चाहे ब्रह्मण होए चाहे शूद्र होए, और चाहे गृहस्त होए चाहे सन्यासी वो अगर कृष्ण प्राप्ति, कृष्ण तत्त्व वित्त है तो वो। “किबा विप्र, किबा न्यासी, शूद्र केने नए” इसलिए चैतन्य महाप्रभु प्रमाण स्वरुप ये हरिदास ठाकुर को नामचार्य बनाया, वेदांत आचार्य। ये नाम का आचार्य। नाम प्रचार करने को आया खुद आचार्य नहीं बना वो हरिदास ठाकुर को आचार्य बनाया, नामचार्य। इसलिए हमलोग जय कहते हैं नामचार्य श्रीला हरिदास ठाकुर की जय। है ये सब विचार तो इंडिया में ही रहेगा। अब तो बहार में और है। भक्त: ये तो किताब हम देखा नहीं। प्रभुपाद: इसका एक सीक्रेट है। प्रभुपाद: चैतन्य महाप्रभु किया। उन्होंने भविष्य वाणी कर दिया था प्रभुपाद: ये हम कभी बोला नहीं था आज बोल रहे हैं। सीक्रेट है की हम हम सोच रहा था। जब तक गुरु महाराज बोला की तुम वेस्टर्न कंट्री में जाओ और अंग्रेजी में प्रचार करो हम सोच रहे हैं की ये जो जब हम बोलेंगे की मीट ईटिंग, इल्लिसित सेक्स, मदिरा सेवन । बाकि ये हमारा दृढ़ विश्वास था जब चैतन्य महाप्रभु बोल दिया की सारा दुनिये में हमारा नाम प्रचार करो, ये कैसे गलत हो सकता है। ये हमारा विश्वास था। इसलिए ये वृन्दावन में सत्तर वर्ष आयु में हमने सोचा की गुरु महाराज ने बोला था, चैतन्य महाप्रभु बताये, चलो एक दफे हम ट्राई करते हैं। तो वो सक्सेस हुआ तो ये उनलोग का आशीर्वाद है। मैं तो होपलेस था की ये हो कैसे सकता है। बाकि ये विश्वास। ये विश्वास की चैतन्य महाप्रभु बोलै है तो जरूर होने वाला है। भक्त: ट्राई करते हैं (हंसी) प्रभुपाद: ये हमारा अट्टू विश्वास। चैतन्य महाप्रभु बताया है की सारा पृथ्वी इसको ग्रहण करे तो होपलेस होते हुए भी चलो एक दफा ट्राई करे। ये दृढ़ विश्वास। चैतन्य चरितामृत में बताये हैं "श्रद्धा शब्दे विश्वास सुदृढ़ निश्चय"। श्रद्धा वो उसी को श्रद्धा बोलै जाता है जिसका विश्वास सुदृढ़ निश्चय। कृष्णा भक्ति कैले। इतना तो हमारा विश्वास पूर्ण। आप सीक्रेट ऑफ़ सक्सेस चाहते थे एहि है सीक्रेट, विश्वास। कुयूं नहीं। चैतन्य फालतू बात बोलै है? भक्त: आप ने तो अमेरिका में कर दिया। मेरी भावना ये की आपको प्रभु प्रेम आ गयी है। ये तो कल हम गोवर्धन गया था भाई ये तो बड़ी विभूति है। आपके बारे में सब बात हुआ। हम बोले सब ऐसा-ऐसा है इतना । तब वो बोलै की कोई भी सक्सेस नहीं हुआ। वो क्या नाम है महेश योगी फ़ैल हो गया। कितना आदमी लोग गया, आप सक्सेस जो गए। प्रभुपाद: ये जो महेश योगी है न, इसका सेक्रेटरी, खास साथ में रहता है। वो उनको पूछा महाराज हम तो भगवान को चाहते हैं। हम तो भगवान को चाहते हैं। उनको मास्टरजी बोला की अगर तुम भगवान को चाहते हो तो, भक्ति वेदांत स्वामी , वो बोल दिया। भक्त: उनके पर्सनल थे, वो उनसे अलग हो गए। महेश योगी का सीक्रेट हमलोग जानता है क्यूंकि । ये शंकराचार्य थे न उनका शिष्य । तो बाद में उनसे अलग हो करके कुछ नहीं था। प्रभुपाद: उनका जो फिलोसोफी है, ये जो यूरोप, अमेरिकन है, जो योग-योग के पीछे जाते हैं, । ये जो सत्ता है योग कहके ठग-ठगके कुछ रूपया । भक्त: और इसी प्रभाव में बहुत इंडियन लोग भी है। । क्यूंकि उधर गर्मी की मौसम में बहुत आदमी लोग सत्संग में जाता है न । वो अपना गुरु से झगड़ा किया, वो बोलता है उनको पाइजन भी वोही दिया, फिर उनका ग्रुप था, वो मर गया, दूसरा कोई जो गया । प्रभुपाद: मुस्लमान को भी दीक्षा दिया। भक्त: यहां है क्या? (हंसी) प्रभुपाद: भक्त: तो महाराज ये है । मैंने आपकी बड़ी हिस्ट्री पढ़ी है। प्रभुपाद: ये अहमदाबाद में कोई स्वामी वो जगद्गुरु लिखता है। तो उसको चैलेंज करता है आप जगद्गुरु लिखा है, जगत कभी देखा भी है? इंडिया के बहार कभी गया? क्यों । भक्त: ठीक कहा। महाराज जी तो खुद सेल्फ-स्ट्य्लेड हैं। यहाँ भी एक हैं, मैं नाम नहीं लूँगा, वो महामण्डलेश्वर प्रभुपाद: अरे हमारा तो ये फिलोसोफी नहीं है जो हिन्दू मुस्लमान । भक्त: लेकिन, आप ऑटोमेटिकली । प्रभुपाद: कोई क्रिस्चियन को पूछता है क्रिस्चियन धर्म से भगवान की प्राप्ति हो सकती है की नहीं? शास्त्र में बताया उसको पालन करो। अब जैसे जीसस क्राइस्ट बोलता है "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" बट यू आर वैरी एक्सपर्ट इन किलिंग, व्हाट काइंड ऑफ़ क्रिस्चियन यू आर? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: असल में क्रिस्चियन वास्तविक हो । ये मुस्लमान है ठीक से अगर । क्यूंकि ये तो सब का अधिकार है की आदमी को भगवान का नाम सुनाये। मुस्लमान को जोकि उनको पांच दफे मस्जिद में जा करके सर झुका करके । तो ऐसा देश, काल, पात्र का उसमे रहेगा। ये तो आपको बाकि जो काम करने वाला है वो कहाँ तक भगवान का विषय कोई उसको समझाए। उसी । ये क्रिस्चियन लोग जो यहाँ देखिये टेन कमांडमेंट्स में है की "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" और जीसस क्राइस्ट को ही पहले क्रूसिफ़ाइ कर दिया। किस थे वो लोग? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: वो मना किया की किल नहीं करो और वो किल किया आपको पहले। भक्त: मैं आपको मिलने आये थे उनसे क्या बात कहूँ? प्रभुपाद: उनकी इच्छा है। ये जो आपका इधर में रिलिजन है, आप इधर क्यों । ये हमारा रिलिजन है नहीं उधर जाईये। देख के बोला इधर भी रिलिजन है नहीं। क्यूंकि क्राइस्ट बोलता है "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" और सब लोग किल करते हैं। भक्त: प्रभुपाद: से बोल रहा है। इधर तो रिलिजन है। हम तो करते हैं। उधर चर्च में है क्या, उधर कोई रिलिजन है नहीं। भक्त: प्रभुपाद: नहीं, मैं भी उसको जवाब दिया की इधर रिलिजन है। भक्त: हरे कृष्णा। Conversation -- April 14, 1976, Bombay How can young man . . . (indistinct) . . . understand the aim of life? It is stated in . . . (indistinct) . . . they are being educated by the . . . (indistinct) . . . but they do not know what is the aim of life. What kind of education? Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was reading an examination book in Bengal when we were in that small village. And under the psychology section they have one question, "What is the physical basis of consciousness?" This was standard question in Bengal on psychology for high school, "What is the physical basis of consciousness?" So that is what they are asking them. This is exactly . . . (indistinct) . . . either. The subtlety. Eight: gross and subtle. Mind is subtle matter. Śrīla Prabhupāda, how does the subtle mind connect to the gross senses? Mind is the controller of the senses. With mind and the senses, six senses, the living being is struggling in this material world, prakṛti . Everyone is struggling, that is also true. Western theories, struggle for existence. They are struggling, and this is the relief, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When he gets Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . just like the other day, the Mathurā meeting, one small child, two years old, was young, and one boy took him on the stage, and his mother came. So how anxiously he went to his mother, happy, steady. He was feeling vacant, all world, without mother. So many people are gathering, but because he could not find out his mother, he was abject. That is struggle for existence. Everything is there, but he is finding better. And that is our position. We are also part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So without Kṛṣṇa the hard struggle for existence is going on. But as soon as he will get Kṛṣṇa, he will be relieved. That is natural, exactly like the child without mother. World, seeing everything vacant—at that stage he cried. That is exhibited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: (aside) Come on, this side. *In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you said in the purports that the subtle body—mind, intelligence and false ego . . . (aside) Get the light on. Yes? Push it. The subtle body determines what goes on in the gross body, next gross body. The subtle body does not determine. His mind, intelligence and false ego? I make a situation, then the higher authorities, nature, or above nature, Kṛṣṇa, decides. When you are punished of the warders by the court, the decision is made by the authorities, not by you. There . . . . . . (indistinct Hindi) (aside) *Somebody give prasādam . We create a situation, and the decision is higher authority: karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). Daiva-netreṇa , higher authority. Otherwise everyone would have decided that, "I shall become a king." Why not everyone? Why one becomes a stool worm? That is hard decision. What he has done, how he has created his mentality—according to that. Kṛṣṇa is there within your heart. He knows everything. When He understands that, "He wants to become like this," then He orders through the material nature, "Give him a body like this." Kṛṣṇa orders māyā that, "Give him a body which is just like a machine," yantra . Yantra means a machine. So he is seated on a certain type of machine. If he has developed pig's mentality, nature will give him a body of a pig, and he will very gladly eat stool. Similarly, if he has developed the mentality of higher demigods, he'll have body. Similarly, if he has developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will go to Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . it depends on him. You develop. Therefore the best thing is to associate with devotees and develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and then go back to home. That is the best utility of your life. If you simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is, then you become liberated, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma , "After leaving of this body, he does not take up any more material body." Material body is subjected to change, one body after another, one body after another. According to his mentality he is given by nature different types of body. He suffers. So if you want to stop this suffering of pralīyate, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate , taking one birth or again giving up this body and again accepting another . . . they do not . . . they have . . . the conditioned soul has become so dull and rascal, he does not take seriously that, "Why I am dying?" Therefore they have made their own theory, that there is no life after death, everything finished after death. This is the opinion of the Western philosophers, big, big professor, like Professor Kotovsky, Indologist. He said: "Swamījī, after death everything is finished." That means they have no spiritual idea. And our spiritual idea begins from the acceptance of transmigration of the soul. You go even to a village, illiterate, he believes in transmigration of the soul. Ordinary illiterate villagers, he believes. You have seen in Vṛndāvana? The other day, four or five days before, he was. You know? He was with me, walking in the field, and the kṛṣān —some of them were poor . . . (indistinct) . . . they came to congratulate me, "Sir, you have come to our field. It is a great fortune. Come here!" And your country it is trespass. (laughter) "Beware of the dog!" "Private!" Warns everyone not to come to my jurisdiction. And here the illiterate, the kiṣān , he saw one saintly man, he thought, "It is my great fortune that he has come." That is the difference between East and West. There they take it as trespass: "Why this man has come to my land?" He can fire even. But still. *So taking birth in India, where Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken by the Supreme Lord, we are so bewildered that we do not take the knowledge seriously. How much unfortunate? We question about Kṛṣṇa's instruction and do not take it, and daily manufacture a type of formula. Big, big men like Mr. Mundar—such a nice man—he has manufactured religion, manah . Every day, one becoming a different type of incarnation and a different type of religious system. And to make a compliment big, big swāmīs they are saying: "Yes. Yata mata tata pat . Whatever you manufacture, it is all right." This is India's misfortune. By birth he is fortunate, by work he is misfortunate. This is the situation. He has taken birth in India, it is a great fortune, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila (CC Adi 9.41). And without taking advantage of the great birth, he is misguided by the rascals. The whole country is now killed. Killed. The demigods desired to come to take birth again in India. That is stated in the Bhāgavata . The climate, the atmosphere, the education, the knowledge, wealth of knowledge, saintly persons . . . Kṛṣṇa comes here; Lord Rāmacandra comes here; Caitanya Mahāprabhu. We are so unfortunate, and to give to these bad leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is leading hundreds of blind men, and everyone is falling to the ditch. (break) *What business? Because they have become so mad that directly they will simply argue. They will not accept. The prahar's business is to flatter them and request them, "Kindly take this. Kindly take this." Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya (Caitanya*-candrāmṛta). After taking the grass in the mouth—because this is Indian way of humbleness, to take a grass and approach a gentleman—that means he has become a very humble . . . (indistinct) *Then many flattering words I am submitting. So the man, he's approach him and say: "All right, you can say what is your desire. " Kāku-śatam kṛtvā ahaṁ bravīmi he sādhavaḥ . When you give chance, "All right, speak what you want to say." Then he says, he sādhavaḥ . Oh, he was a great sādhu . He sādhavaḥ, sakalam eva vihāya dūrād , "You are great sādhu , but kindly give up whatever nonsense you have learned." This is the . . . (indistinct) . . . Sakalam eva vihāya dūrād : "You are such a great person, but you are full of all nonsense knowledge. Kindly give it up." "Then what have I to do?" Caitanya*-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam : "You kindly be attached to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu." This is all right. We know he is a first-class fool, but he pretends to be a very learned scholar. So how he can be applaused? He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya : "Kindly give up all nonsensical ideas you have learned, and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." This is our . . . that is our preaching. So much nonsensical ideas they have developed. That is why it is very difficult. So this is the way of purport: he sādhavaḥ . If I say that you are rascal, (laughter) then you will be angry. Murkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śanta : if you advise good thing to a rascal, he will be angry, that is all. Therefore very politely, he sādhavaḥ, "You are a great sādhu , but one request, that is—forget all nonsense you have learned." That's all. In India they have simply learned all nonsense at the present moment. They have given up Kṛṣṇa's instruction, and they have learned all nonsense. Rubbish. This is going on. So if intelligent we learn at all, we shall give all nonsense ideas and take to Kṛṣṇa's instruction. That is the successful. Are you agreeable? (laughter) Ha! (to guest) Are you agreeable? . . . (indistinct) Huh? "All right," here you say. As soon as you go you will say: "No, you are nonsense. I am right." *And you become attached to Caitanya, Caitanya*-candra. You should become dearly attached to Caitanya-candra. Then you will become guru immediately. Caitanya-candra said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Wherever you are, there is a country," Caitanya-candra says: "you become a guru ." That is Caitanya. He asks everyone, every birth of India, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila (CC Adi 9.41). Anyone who has taken birth as human being in India is given so much facility. Janma sārthaka kari : make your life successful and become a guru . You have got the capacity. Of course, the concept of transmigration of the soul is . . . *By birth you, you are so advanced. (aside) Take this. Simply by taking birth in India. Just like in the village, you go, mostly illiterate, personally they will see you immediately a saintly person, immediately believe in the transmigration of the soul. Still, how much advantage it is in India? Simply he has to adjust only things a little. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā (CC Madhya 7.128): "Every one of you become a guru ." "How? What shall I do to become a guru ? I am illiterate, I have no education. How I can become guru ?"Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa: you hear instruction of Kṛṣṇa and just transfer it. (aside) Go on. You hear from the right person that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, and you simply say: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme." But you do not do it. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "I am the Supreme." Aham ādir hi devānāṁ (BG 10.2). You hear it from right person and go everywhere and say: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Being," and you just become a devotee of Him. Then you become a guru . And if you cheat them, show them some jugglery and become yourself Kṛṣṇa, then what can you do? That is going on. The so-called gurus , rascals, they are trying to become Kṛṣṇa. Instead of preaching Kṛṣṇa's they are trying to become Kṛṣṇa. Is it possible? But they think Kṛṣṇa very insignificant. They do not know what is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. *They’re asuric. Mahā*-Viṣṇu, from whose breathing millions of universes are coming out and going in, this Mahā-Viṣṇu is a partial representation of Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya . Just like we inhale, exhale out, and so many atoms are coming out and going in. Similarly, Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing, and millions of universes are coming and going. That Mahā-Viṣṇu, viṣṇur mahān sa iha, yasya kalā-viśeṣo, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ , that is Kṛṣṇa. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11): those who are rascals are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, "Huh, Kṛṣṇa may be a little more intelligent than me. I am as good as Kṛṣṇa." This is going on, mūḍhās . (aside) Got it? . . . (indistinct) Hmm? . . . (indistinct) What is that? Flowers. Hmm. Can I ask you a question? Hmm. Is the guru an absolute necessity for spiritual advancement? Hmm? Is the guru an absolute necessity for spiritual advancement? What do you think? Because they are so rare, as you say it. There are so many gurus who are posing as . . . (indistinct) . . . which in itself disqualifies them to be gurus , and they are very rare. And how can one have gurus when they are so rare? Yes. When you go to purchase gold, you must have some idea what is gold. Otherwise you will be cheated. When you want to purchase gold you must have some idea of gold. If you have no idea, then you will be cheated. Then . . . First of all you must have to know, knowledge, what is guru . Otherwise you will be cheated. If one hasn’t got a guru , then how shall he advance? Yes, that is essential: ādau gurvāśra . But you do not know, at least, what is the nature of guru , then you will be cheated. Just like here the definition of guru I was speaking. You did not hear. You did not hear? No. I was speaking, and you did not hear? The symptom of guru ? Yes . . . (indistinct) What is that? He should know . . . he himself should have realized, given . . . What is that realization? He should have experienced what is given . . . What is that experience? *That means you are hearing, you’re thinking something else. I was just explaining what is guru a minute before, and you are asking the same question. Caitanya Mahāprabhu gives you the idea of guru , that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā, tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). He is saying that, "You become a guru . I order you." So what you will answer, sir? "I do not know anything. How shall I become guru ? Are you asking me to become a guru ?" The next line He says: "Yes. You can become guru immediately." Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa : "You simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṇa; *then you become a guru ." What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Idhar (here). So if you simply understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then you will understand guru also. You will not be cheated by so-called gurus . (break) Śiṣyas te 'haṁśādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). Therefore a guru means one who speaks on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, aiyee, he is guru . This is the definition of guru . Aiyee. There is no difficulty to find out guru . Just like if you want to purchase gold, you can purchase, although there is chance of being cheated. But you do not say that there is no gold. That you cannot say. Gold is there, but if you are a rascal you will be cheated. That is . . . depends on your knowledge. Gold is there, otherwise the world cannot go on. There is so many volumes of business in transactions of gold—going, coming, purchasing, selling. You cannot say there is no gold. But if you are a rascal, then you will be cheated. Somebody will give you iron and say: "It is gold. Take it." It depends upon you, a little intelligence. You cannot say because I have been cheated that there is no gold. Can you say like that? You do not know, you are a rascal. You do not know to find out where is gold, but you cannot say there is no gold. That is not possible. Real. Huh? Ki yuh? Because one has been cheated, he cannot say that there is no gold. Because you have been cheated by some counterfeit coins or notes, you cannot say there is no real note. It is your less intelligence you have been cheated. So guru's definition is given there in the śāstra , by the authorities. These are given, guru's symptoms. Just like we offer prayer to guru : *:prāptasya kalyāṇa*-guṇārṇavasya *Saṁsāra*-dāvānala , this material world is just like blazing fire— dāvānala , forest fire. In the forest nobody goes to set fire, it takes automatically by friction of dried bamboos. Nobody is interested to go to the forest to set fire, but still the fire takes place. Similarly, in this material world everyone wants to live very happily, but it is not allowed—there is fire. So guru means one who can save from this blazing fire. Prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya : that this forest fire . . . sometimes I was only . . . (indistinct) . . . go down the station, and there was forest fire upon the hill, and I asked them, "Why there is smoke?" They said: "There is fire, the very, very top height." Now who will go there to extinguish the fire? With your fire brigade or bucket of water? Who will be able to extinguish that fire? Then how the fire will be extinguished? Ghanāghanatvam , when there will be sufficient rainfall from the sky. That is guru's business: *Kāruṇya*-ghanā : guru is bestowed his so much mercy—cloud. A cloud is merciful, pours down rain and the fire becomes extinguished. Similarly, the guru , he has received such mercy from Kṛṣṇa, and he pours over, and the whole fire becomes . . . very good. I don't see how there are evil forces in the world. Hmm? If the whole world is created by spiritual persons who found a spiritual source, how can there be evil forces? (explaining) He is asking why there is evil in the world. If Kṛṣṇa is the creator of everything, why is there evil in the world? This is your question? So Kṛṣṇa has created evil, or you have created evil? Answer this question. There is so many devils after . . . No, first of all answer this question. Evil . . . It is very puzzling, so I am asking you. No, whether you have created evil or Kṛṣṇa has created evil? You are infected with some disease, so you have infected or Kṛṣṇa has infected you? You are suffering from cholera, and the doctor says that you have infected cholera germ. So you have done it, or Kṛṣṇa has done it? It is a great riddle. Nobody has so far solved it. (explaining) He says it is an unsolvable riddle so far. Not unsolvable. You are . . . you are going to jail, so your position of your going to jail is created by you or by Kṛṣṇa? Who has created that position? Hm? Answer this. What I wanted to say is that . . . You want to say, I want to say this. Answer this. (explaining to guest) You commit a crime and go to jail. Are you responsible or is Kṛṣṇa responsible? Well, He will also have . . . *Why don't you understand that evil you create? Kṛṣṇa does not create. Kṛṣṇa wants to save you that, "You rascal, don't create evil. You surrender unto Me." Mūḍhā . Why you are creating evil? That is Kṛṣṇa's concern. Kṛṣṇa says: "You don't do it. Why you are doing that?" So who is creating evil? You are creating. You are creating your own evil, and you are accusing Kṛṣṇa. How much fool you are, just imagine. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya, mām (BG 18.66). "Why you are creating evil? You give up everything, come to Me." Why don't you go? And Kṛṣṇa is creating your evil? He is trying to save you from evil, and you are accusing Kṛṣṇa that He is creating. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo, mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66), and still you are accusing Kṛṣṇa. How much fool you are? Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.25). Find out this verse, tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair (BG 7.13). Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn’t it also true that if we think that Kṛṣṇa is creating this evil then we will never take a step to cure our own problem? Then that is avoiding Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa has created evil; why should I go to Kṛṣṇa?" This is the argument, "I shall create my own religion." That's all. Yata mat tata pat . Read it. What is the translation? Read loud. "Deluded by the three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance, the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible." Purport. “The whole world is enchanted by three modes of material nature. Those who are bewildered by these three modes cannot understand that transcendental to this material nature is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. In this material world everyone is under the influence of these three guṇas and is thus bewildered. “By nature living entities have particular types of body and particular types of psychic and biological activities accordingly. There are four classes of men functioning in the three material modes of nature. Those who are purely in the mode of goodness are called brāhmaṇas . Those who are purely in the mode of passion are called kṣatriyas . Those who are in the modes of both passion and ignorance are called vaiśyas. Those who are completely in ignorance are called śūdras . And those who are less than that are animals or animal life. However, these designations are not permanent. I may be either a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or whatever—in any case, this life is temporary. But although life is temporary and we do not know what we are going to be in the next life, still, by the spell of this illusory energy, we consider ourselves in the light of this bodily conception of life, and we think that we are American, Indian, Russian or brāhmaṇa , Hindu, Muslim, etc. And if we become entangled with the modes of material nature, then we forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is behind all these modes. So Lord Kṛṣṇa says that men deluded by these three modes of nature do not understand that behind the material background is the Supreme Godhead. "There are many different kinds of living entities—human beings, demigods, animals, etc.—and each and every one of them is under the influence of material nature, and all of them have forgotten the transcendent Personality of Godhead. Those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, and even those who are in the mode of goodness, cannot go beyond the impersonal Brahman conception of the Absolute Truth. They are bewildered before the Supreme Lord in His personal feature, which possesses all beauty, opulence, knowledge, strength, fame and renunciation. When even those who are in goodness cannot understand, what hope is there for those in passion and ignorance? Kṛṣṇa consciousness is transcendental to all these three modes of material nature, and those who are truly established in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are actually liberated." So the conclusion is that we create our own evils. Whatever the destructive forces like . . . (indistinct) . . . have taken all these things. It is not created by demons. Yes. They are also destructive forces . . . Yes. To destroy you, because you are accusing Kṛṣṇa, then you shall be destroyed. Yes. (aside) Some of our men may . . . now make place for the outsiders. You can go upstairs. Eh? To chaliye sab. (So let's all go.) . . . go see one . . . Yes. That'll be nice. (break) . . . *Bhāgavatam* that when there was a God conscious king, there was no natural disasters in the kingdom. Yes, because he was guiding the citizens to become God conscious. That is the duty of the king—to see that everyone is following his principles: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . That is secular state: that you may follow any path of religious system, but you must follow it. That is the duty of the state. If you say that you are Hindu, then you must follow the Hindu codes. If you say that you are a Christian, you must follow the Christian codes. But secular state does not mean that you become without religion. Whatever you profess, you do it nicely. That is government's duty to see—don't cheat. I am talking that I am a brāhmaṇa , and I am doing the cobbler's business—that is cheating. If you are doing the cobbler's business, you say that you are a cobbler. Why do you say that, "I am brāhmaṇa "? That is governments business. If you are doing the cobbler's business and professing as brāhmaṇa , you should be punished immediately. Just like a layman, he does not know anything about medical science, and keeping some bottles, false bottles, colored water. And if you declare sincerely that, "I am doctor, medical man," he is a cheater, he should be punished. Similarly, you profess your own way of religion, it doesn't matter, but you must follow that religion properly. *Just like Hindu religion, so who is a Hindu who does not accept Bhagavad*-gītā ? Then how he is Hindu if he does not accept Bhagavad-gītā ? If he says: "I am Hindu, but I don't believe in Bhagavad-gītā ," he should be immediately punished, that either you shall give up your name as Hindu or you must accept it, Bhagavad-gītā . If you say that you are Christian, you must accept Bible, the teachings of Bible. The teachings of Bible, the Ten Commandments, Christ says: "Thou shall not kill," and if you are killing, then you are not a Christian, you are cheater. The Muhammad says you must go five times to the mosque and offer prayers—if you want to kill animals, you must sacrifice it in this mosque. But he is not following that tenet, he is a cheater. It is state's duty is to see that either a Hindu or Muslim or Christian or anyone, he must following the religious principles. That is the duty. That is secular state. Not that because the state is secular you can do whatever you like. That is very irresponsible state. There is no harm, either you become a Christian or Hindu or Muslim. It doesn't matter. But you must follow the principles, then the state will be nice. If a man is strictly following some religious principle, it doesn't matter what religion he is following—then he is a good man. There is no doubt about it. No religion says that, "You become a thief, rascal." Just like in Muhammadan religion intoxication is strictly forbidden. In our Bhagavad-gītā also, the Buddha religion, ahiṁsā– but all the combined instruction of all the other religions you will find in Bhagavad-gītā . You find out this verse, ahiṁsā: *It includes all religious principles, the summary of all religions. Either a Hindu or a Muslim or a Christian—anyone can follow the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . *In Durban I was talking with some scholarly society. So there was a Indian, he belongs to the Ārya*-samāj , so he said that, "Swamījī, you are speaking on the Hindu conception of religion." Hindu conception of religion? When Kṛṣṇa says: *Dehāntara*-prāptir —a child is becoming a boy; *a boy is becoming a young man and a young man becoming an old man—is this Hindu conception? Just see. Rascals. A Muhammadan's child does not become a Muhammadan young man? The people are thinking, "Hindu conception." What do you mean by Hindu conception? When Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), that "You produce sufficient quantity of food grains, and everyone will be happy," is it meant for the Hindus, not for the Muhammadans? In this way study each and every verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . It is applicable to the whole human society. It is not a sectarian thing. Kṛṣṇa cannot speak anything sectarian. He says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the father of everyone." Does the father say anything particularly to one son and not for the others? If the father advises one son, "My dear boy, you do business like this. This is the way," is it meant for that particular boy and not for the others? Each and every verse you study, and you will see that it is meant for the whole human society. When He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), then what is that religion who will not think of God? Is there any religion which does not think of God? If one does not think of God, what kind of religion it is? So Bhagavad-gītā says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me—Kṛṣṇa, or God." So what is the wrong there? If I advise you, "You always think of God," it is a very wrong thing? So you study analytically. What is that verse, ahiṁs . . . amānitvam adambhitvam (BG 13.8). If you become humble and gentle, does it mean that you have to become a Hindu or Muslim? Every person should become humble and gentle, amānitvam adambhitvam . Ahiṁsā , you should not be violent. Every, each and every verse you study, it is not for the Hindus or Muhammadans. Everyone. For the human society. Read the translation. "Humility, pridelessness, nonviolence, tolerance, simplicity . . ." So is it for only for the Hindus? This instruction, what is that? "Humility, pridelessness . . ." Humility. Pridelessness. ". . . nonviolence . . ." Nonviolence. ". . . tolerance . . ." Tolerance. ". . . simplicity . . ." *Simplicity. What? What is that? Is it for the Hindus only? Or Muslims? Or Christians? How they are misguided, just see. And we are preaching this Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. How these Christians, they are taking? Even it is for Hindus, the Bible also teaches the same thing: "Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek." It is not sectarian at all. No religious book is sectarian, but according to the country, man. Just like in the Bible, Christ says: "Thou shalt not kill." So you can understand what kind of men they were—they are very expert in killing. Therefore the first instruction, "Thou shalt not kill" Because those who are sinful, killers, how they will understand about God? *One who is freed from all sinful activities, he can understand God. God is not so cheap. Yeṣāṁ tv anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ . These things have to be understood. I shall remain the most sinful man, and I want to understand God and I want to create God—this is going on. What is the difference between God, father and guru ? God is the supreme father. Guru is your father, your father is your father. God is supreme father. The Christian idea, God is the supreme father: "O God, give us our daily bread." Just like children in a family ask father, "Give me a biscuit," the father supplies. So God is supreme father—for everyone. Is there any difficulty? Is there any difficulty to understand? If God is the supreme father—is there any difficulty? If I pray "Our Father," then . . . (indistinct) . . . to Godhead? *Eh? What? He is the supreme father. He is father's father, grandfather's father, great*-grandfather's father—you go on. That is therefore He is called supreme father. If you stick to your father, there is no harm. Hindi me ek kahavat hai "guru govind dono khade kako lago pai balihari guru apne govind diyo batae" usme bataya hai pehle guru. (In Hindi there is a saying, " Guru govind dono khade kako lago pai balihari guru apne govind diyo batae ." That is first told to the master.) Guru kya batayeg sharab piyo to wo guru sala chor hai. (If the master says: "Drink alcohol," then he is a fraudulent master.) I am also asking this question . . . *First of all find out guru . Guru kaun hai abhi to bataya hai bar*-bar. Tomko jo bhagavan ka vishay batata hai wo guru hai aur nahi to chor hai. Guru to jante nahi nam dene se guru ho jata hai yehi to abhi bataya. Guru ka kam kya hai jo upar me le jayega wo guru hai guru ka matlab hai pocket-mar jo guru tumhara pocket me hai sab cheen liya bus ho gaya guru ye guru nahi guru ka kam hai tumko bachana. (Who is a master? Just now i told you again and again—one who tells you about God is a master, otherwise he is a cheater. I don't know who is a master—just by giving a name, he doesn't become a master. Just now I told what is the master's duty, to take you back home, back to Godhead. The master does not mean a cheater, one who takes away everything from your pocket and becomes a master this, is not a master. A master is one who saves you.) "One who cannot deliver his dependents from the path of repeated birth and death should never become a spiritual master, a father, a husband, a mother or a worshipable demigod." Purport "There are many spiritual masters, but Ṛṣabhadeva advises that one should not become a spiritual master if he is unable to save his disciple from the path of birth and death. Unless one is a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he cannot save himself from the path of repeated birth and death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti so'rjuna . One can stop birth and death only by returning home, back to Godhead. However, who can go back to Godhead unless he understands the Supreme Lord in truth? Janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ . We have many instances in history illustrating Ṛṣabhadeva's instructions. Śukrācārya was rejected by Bali Mahārāja due to his inability . . ." (break) (end) Conversation -- April 14, 1976, Bombay How can young man . . . (indistinct) . . . understand the aim of life? It is stated in . . . (indistinct) . . . they are being educated by the . . . (indistinct) . . . but they do not know what is the aim of life. What kind of education? Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was reading an examination book in Bengal when we were in that small village. And under the psychology section they have one question, "What is the physical basis of consciousness?" This was standard question in Bengal on psychology for high school, "What is the physical basis of consciousness?" So that is what they are asking them. This is exactly . . . (indistinct) . . . either. The subtlety. Eight: gross and subtle. Mind is subtle matter. Śrīla Prabhupāda, how does the subtle mind connect to the gross senses? Mind is the controller of the senses. With mind and the senses, six senses, the living being is struggling in this material world, prakṛti . Everyone is struggling, that is also true. Western theories, struggle for existence. They are struggling, and this is the relief, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When he gets Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . just like the other day, the Mathurā meeting, one small child, two years old, was young, and one boy took him on the stage, and his mother came. So how anxiously he went to his mother, happy, steady. He was feeling vacant, all world, without mother. So many people are gathering, but because he could not find out his mother, he was abject. That is struggle for existence. Everything is there, but he is finding better. And that is our position. We are also part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So without Kṛṣṇa the hard struggle for existence is going on. But as soon as he will get Kṛṣṇa, he will be relieved. That is natural, exactly like the child without mother. World, seeing everything vacant—at that stage he cried. That is exhibited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: (aside) Come on, this side. *In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you said in the purports that the subtle body—mind, intelligence and false ego . . . (aside) Get the light on. Yes? Push it. The subtle body determines what goes on in the gross body, next gross body. The subtle body does not determine. His mind, intelligence and false ego? I make a situation, then the higher authorities, nature, or above nature, Kṛṣṇa, decides. When you are punished of the warders by the court, the decision is made by the authorities, not by you. There . . . . . . (indistinct Hindi) (aside) *Somebody give prasādam . We create a situation, and the decision is higher authority: karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). Daiva-netreṇa , higher authority. Otherwise everyone would have decided that, "I shall become a king." Why not everyone? Why one becomes a stool worm? That is hard decision. What he has done, how he has created his mentality—according to that. Kṛṣṇa is there within your heart. He knows everything. When He understands that, "He wants to become like this," then He orders through the material nature, "Give him a body like this." Kṛṣṇa orders māyā that, "Give him a body which is just like a machine," yantra . Yantra means a machine. So he is seated on a certain type of machine. If he has developed pig's mentality, nature will give him a body of a pig, and he will very gladly eat stool. Similarly, if he has developed the mentality of higher demigods, he'll have body. Similarly, if he has developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will go to Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . it depends on him. You develop. Therefore the best thing is to associate with devotees and develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and then go back to home. That is the best utility of your life. If you simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is, then you become liberated, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma , "After leaving of this body, he does not take up any more material body." Material body is subjected to change, one body after another, one body after another. According to his mentality he is given by nature different types of body. He suffers. So if you want to stop this suffering of pralīyate, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate , taking one birth or again giving up this body and again accepting another . . . they do not . . . they have . . . the conditioned soul has become so dull and rascal, he does not take seriously that, "Why I am dying?" Therefore they have made their own theory, that there is no life after death, everything finished after death. This is the opinion of the Western philosophers, big, big professor, like Professor Kotovsky, Indologist. He said: "Swamījī, after death everything is finished." That means they have no spiritual idea. And our spiritual idea begins from the acceptance of transmigration of the soul. You go even to a village, illiterate, he believes in transmigration of the soul. Ordinary illiterate villagers, he believes. You have seen in Vṛndāvana? The other day, four or five days before, he was. You know? He was with me, walking in the field, and the kṛṣān —some of them were poor . . . (indistinct) . . . they came to congratulate me, "Sir, you have come to our field. It is a great fortune. Come here!" And your country it is trespass. (laughter) "Beware of the dog!" "Private!" Warns everyone not to come to my jurisdiction. And here the illiterate, the kiṣān , he saw one saintly man, he thought, "It is my great fortune that he has come." That is the difference between East and West. There they take it as trespass: "Why this man has come to my land?" He can fire even. But still. *So taking birth in India, where Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken by the Supreme Lord, we are so bewildered that we do not take the knowledge seriously. How much unfortunate? We question about Kṛṣṇa's instruction and do not take it, and daily manufacture a type of formula. Big, big men like Mr. Mundar—such a nice man—he has manufactured religion, manah . Every day, one becoming a different type of incarnation and a different type of religious system. And to make a compliment big, big swāmīs they are saying: "Yes. Yata mata tata pat . Whatever you manufacture, it is all right." This is India's misfortune. By birth he is fortunate, by work he is misfortunate. This is the situation. He has taken birth in India, it is a great fortune, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila (CC Adi 9.41). And without taking advantage of the great birth, he is misguided by the rascals. The whole country is now killed. Killed. The demigods desired to come to take birth again in India. That is stated in the Bhāgavata . The climate, the atmosphere, the education, the knowledge, wealth of knowledge, saintly persons . . . Kṛṣṇa comes here; Lord Rāmacandra comes here; Caitanya Mahāprabhu. We are so unfortunate, and to give to these bad leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is leading hundreds of blind men, and everyone is falling to the ditch. (break) *What business? Because they have become so mad that directly they will simply argue. They will not accept. The prahar's business is to flatter them and request them, "Kindly take this. Kindly take this." Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya (Caitanya*-candrāmṛta). After taking the grass in the mouth—because this is Indian way of humbleness, to take a grass and approach a gentleman—that means he has become a very humble . . . (indistinct) *Then many flattering words I am submitting. So the man, he's approach him and say: "All right, you can say what is your desire. " Kāku-śatam kṛtvā ahaṁ bravīmi he sādhavaḥ . When you give chance, "All right, speak what you want to say." Then he says, he sādhavaḥ . Oh, he was a great sādhu . He sādhavaḥ, sakalam eva vihāya dūrād , "You are great sādhu , but kindly give up whatever nonsense you have learned." This is the . . . (indistinct) . . . Sakalam eva vihāya dūrād : "You are such a great person, but you are full of all nonsense knowledge. Kindly give it up." "Then what have I to do?" Caitanya*-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam : "You kindly be attached to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu." This is all right. We know he is a first-class fool, but he pretends to be a very learned scholar. So how he can be applaused? He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya : "Kindly give up all nonsensical ideas you have learned, and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." This is our . . . that is our preaching. So much nonsensical ideas they have developed. That is why it is very difficult. So this is the way of purport: he sādhavaḥ . If I say that you are rascal, (laughter) then you will be angry. Murkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śanta : if you advise good thing to a rascal, he will be angry, that is all. Therefore very politely, he sādhavaḥ, "You are a great sādhu , but one request, that is—forget all nonsense you have learned." That's all. In India they have simply learned all nonsense at the present moment. They have given up Kṛṣṇa's instruction, and they have learned all nonsense. Rubbish. This is going on. So if intelligent we learn at all, we shall give all nonsense ideas and take to Kṛṣṇa's instruction. That is the successful. Are you agreeable? (laughter) Ha! (to guest) Are you agreeable? . . . (indistinct) Huh? "All right," here you say. As soon as you go you will say: "No, you are nonsense. I am right." *And you become attached to Caitanya, Caitanya*-candra. You should become dearly attached to Caitanya-candra. Then you will become guru immediately. Caitanya-candra said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Wherever you are, there is a country," Caitanya-candra says: "you become a guru ." That is Caitanya. He asks everyone, every birth of India, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila (CC Adi 9.41). Anyone who has taken birth as human being in India is given so much facility. Janma sārthaka kari : make your life successful and become a guru . You have got the capacity. Of course, the concept of transmigration of the soul is . . . *By birth you, you are so advanced. (aside) Take this. Simply by taking birth in India. Just like in the village, you go, mostly illiterate, personally they will see you immediately a saintly person, immediately believe in the transmigration of the soul. Still, how much advantage it is in India? Simply he has to adjust only things a little. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā (CC Madhya 7.128): "Every one of you become a guru ." "How? What shall I do to become a guru ? I am illiterate, I have no education. How I can become guru ?"Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa: you hear instruction of Kṛṣṇa and just transfer it. (aside) Go on. You hear from the right person that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, and you simply say: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme." But you do not do it. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "I am the Supreme." Aham ādir hi devānāṁ (BG 10.2). You hear it from right person and go everywhere and say: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Being," and you just become a devotee of Him. Then you become a guru . And if you cheat them, show them some jugglery and become yourself Kṛṣṇa, then what can you do? That is going on. The so-called gurus , rascals, they are trying to become Kṛṣṇa. Instead of preaching Kṛṣṇa's they are trying to become Kṛṣṇa. Is it possible? But they think Kṛṣṇa very insignificant. They do not know what is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. *They’re asuric. Mahā*-Viṣṇu, from whose breathing millions of universes are coming out and going in, this Mahā-Viṣṇu is a partial representation of Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya . Just like we inhale, exhale out, and so many atoms are coming out and going in. Similarly, Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing, and millions of universes are coming and going. That Mahā-Viṣṇu, viṣṇur mahān sa iha, yasya kalā-viśeṣo, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ , that is Kṛṣṇa. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11): those who are rascals are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, "Huh, Kṛṣṇa may be a little more intelligent than me. I am as good as Kṛṣṇa." This is going on, mūḍhās . (aside) Got it? . . . (indistinct) Hmm? . . . (indistinct) What is that? Flowers. Hmm. Can I ask you a question? Hmm. Is the guru an absolute necessity for spiritual advancement? Hmm? Is the guru an absolute necessity for spiritual advancement? What do you think? Because they are so rare, as you say it. There are so many gurus who are posing as . . . (indistinct) . . . which in itself disqualifies them to be gurus , and they are very rare. And how can one have gurus when they are so rare? Yes. When you go to purchase gold, you must have some idea what is gold. Otherwise you will be cheated. When you want to purchase gold you must have some idea of gold. If you have no idea, then you will be cheated. Then . . . First of all you must have to know, knowledge, what is guru . Otherwise you will be cheated. If one hasn’t got a guru , then how shall he advance? Yes, that is essential: ādau gurvāśra . But you do not know, at least, what is the nature of guru , then you will be cheated. Just like here the definition of guru I was speaking. You did not hear. You did not hear? No. I was speaking, and you did not hear? The symptom of guru ? Yes . . . (indistinct) What is that? He should know . . . he himself should have realized, given . . . What is that realization? He should have experienced what is given . . . What is that experience? *That means you are hearing, you’re thinking something else. I was just explaining what is guru a minute before, and you are asking the same question. Caitanya Mahāprabhu gives you the idea of guru , that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā, tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). He is saying that, "You become a guru . I order you." So what you will answer, sir? "I do not know anything. How shall I become guru ? Are you asking me to become a guru ?" The next line He says: "Yes. You can become guru immediately." Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa : "You simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṇa; *then you become a guru ." What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Idhar (here). So if you simply understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then you will understand guru also. You will not be cheated by so-called gurus . (break) Śiṣyas te 'haṁśādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). Therefore a guru means one who speaks on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, aiyee, he is guru . This is the definition of guru . Aiyee. There is no difficulty to find out guru . Just like if you want to purchase gold, you can purchase, although there is chance of being cheated. But you do not say that there is no gold. That you cannot say. Gold is there, but if you are a rascal you will be cheated. That is . . . depends on your knowledge. Gold is there, otherwise the world cannot go on. There is so many volumes of business in transactions of gold—going, coming, purchasing, selling. You cannot say there is no gold. But if you are a rascal, then you will be cheated. Somebody will give you iron and say: "It is gold. Take it." It depends upon you, a little intelligence. You cannot say because I have been cheated that there is no gold. Can you say like that? You do not know, you are a rascal. You do not know to find out where is gold, but you cannot say there is no gold. That is not possible. Real. Huh? Ki yuh? Because one has been cheated, he cannot say that there is no gold. Because you have been cheated by some counterfeit coins or notes, you cannot say there is no real note. It is your less intelligence you have been cheated. So guru's definition is given there in the śāstra , by the authorities. These are given, guru's symptoms. Just like we offer prayer to guru : *:prāptasya kalyāṇa*-guṇārṇavasya *Saṁsāra*-dāvānala , this material world is just like blazing fire— dāvānala , forest fire. In the forest nobody goes to set fire, it takes automatically by friction of dried bamboos. Nobody is interested to go to the forest to set fire, but still the fire takes place. Similarly, in this material world everyone wants to live very happily, but it is not allowed—there is fire. So guru means one who can save from this blazing fire. Prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya : that this forest fire . . . sometimes I was only . . . (indistinct) . . . go down the station, and there was forest fire upon the hill, and I asked them, "Why there is smoke?" They said: "There is fire, the very, very top height." Now who will go there to extinguish the fire? With your fire brigade or bucket of water? Who will be able to extinguish that fire? Then how the fire will be extinguished? Ghanāghanatvam , when there will be sufficient rainfall from the sky. That is guru's business: *Kāruṇya*-ghanā : guru is bestowed his so much mercy—cloud. A cloud is merciful, pours down rain and the fire becomes extinguished. Similarly, the guru , he has received such mercy from Kṛṣṇa, and he pours over, and the whole fire becomes . . . very good. I don't see how there are evil forces in the world. Hmm? If the whole world is created by spiritual persons who found a spiritual source, how can there be evil forces? (explaining) He is asking why there is evil in the world. If Kṛṣṇa is the creator of everything, why is there evil in the world? This is your question? So Kṛṣṇa has created evil, or you have created evil? Answer this question. There is so many devils after . . . No, first of all answer this question. Evil . . . It is very puzzling, so I am asking you. No, whether you have created evil or Kṛṣṇa has created evil? You are infected with some disease, so you have infected or Kṛṣṇa has infected you? You are suffering from cholera, and the doctor says that you have infected cholera germ. So you have done it, or Kṛṣṇa has done it? It is a great riddle. Nobody has so far solved it. (explaining) He says it is an unsolvable riddle so far. Not unsolvable. You are . . . you are going to jail, so your position of your going to jail is created by you or by Kṛṣṇa? Who has created that position? Hm? Answer this. What I wanted to say is that . . . You want to say, I want to say this. Answer this. (explaining to guest) You commit a crime and go to jail. Are you responsible or is Kṛṣṇa responsible? Well, He will also have . . . *Why don't you understand that evil you create? Kṛṣṇa does not create. Kṛṣṇa wants to save you that, "You rascal, don't create evil. You surrender unto Me." Mūḍhā . Why you are creating evil? That is Kṛṣṇa's concern. Kṛṣṇa says: "You don't do it. Why you are doing that?" So who is creating evil? You are creating. You are creating your own evil, and you are accusing Kṛṣṇa. How much fool you are, just imagine. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya, mām (BG 18.66). "Why you are creating evil? You give up everything, come to Me." Why don't you go? And Kṛṣṇa is creating your evil? He is trying to save you from evil, and you are accusing Kṛṣṇa that He is creating. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo, mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66), and still you are accusing Kṛṣṇa. How much fool you are? Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.25). Find out this verse, tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair (BG 7.13). Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn’t it also true that if we think that Kṛṣṇa is creating this evil then we will never take a step to cure our own problem? Then that is avoiding Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa has created evil; why should I go to Kṛṣṇa?" This is the argument, "I shall create my own religion." That's all. Yata mat tata pat . Read it. What is the translation? Read loud. "Deluded by the three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance, the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible." Purport. “The whole world is enchanted by three modes of material nature. Those who are bewildered by these three modes cannot understand that transcendental to this material nature is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. In this material world everyone is under the influence of these three guṇas and is thus bewildered. “By nature living entities have particular types of body and particular types of psychic and biological activities accordingly. There are four classes of men functioning in the three material modes of nature. Those who are purely in the mode of goodness are called brāhmaṇas . Those who are purely in the mode of passion are called kṣatriyas . Those who are in the modes of both passion and ignorance are called vaiśyas. Those who are completely in ignorance are called śūdras . And those who are less than that are animals or animal life. However, these designations are not permanent. I may be either a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or whatever—in any case, this life is temporary. But although life is temporary and we do not know what we are going to be in the next life, still, by the spell of this illusory energy, we consider ourselves in the light of this bodily conception of life, and we think that we are American, Indian, Russian or brāhmaṇa , Hindu, Muslim, etc. And if we become entangled with the modes of material nature, then we forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is behind all these modes. So Lord Kṛṣṇa says that men deluded by these three modes of nature do not understand that behind the material background is the Supreme Godhead. "There are many different kinds of living entities—human beings, demigods, animals, etc.—and each and every one of them is under the influence of material nature, and all of them have forgotten the transcendent Personality of Godhead. Those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, and even those who are in the mode of goodness, cannot go beyond the impersonal Brahman conception of the Absolute Truth. They are bewildered before the Supreme Lord in His personal feature, which possesses all beauty, opulence, knowledge, strength, fame and renunciation. When even those who are in goodness cannot understand, what hope is there for those in passion and ignorance? Kṛṣṇa consciousness is transcendental to all these three modes of material nature, and those who are truly established in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are actually liberated." So the conclusion is that we create our own evils. Whatever the destructive forces like . . . (indistinct) . . . have taken all these things. It is not created by demons. Yes. They are also destructive forces . . . Yes. To destroy you, because you are accusing Kṛṣṇa, then you shall be destroyed. Yes. (aside) Some of our men may . . . now make place for the outsiders. You can go upstairs. Eh? To chaliye sab. (So let's all go.) . . . go see one . . . Yes. That'll be nice. (break) . . . *Bhāgavatam* that when there was a God conscious king, there was no natural disasters in the kingdom. Yes, because he was guiding the citizens to become God conscious. That is the duty of the king—to see that everyone is following his principles: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . That is secular state: that you may follow any path of religious system, but you must follow it. That is the duty of the state. If you say that you are Hindu, then you must follow the Hindu codes. If you say that you are a Christian, you must follow the Christian codes. But secular state does not mean that you become without religion. Whatever you profess, you do it nicely. That is government's duty to see—don't cheat. I am talking that I am a brāhmaṇa , and I am doing the cobbler's business—that is cheating. If you are doing the cobbler's business, you say that you are a cobbler. Why do you say that, "I am brāhmaṇa "? That is governments business. If you are doing the cobbler's business and professing as brāhmaṇa , you should be punished immediately. Just like a layman, he does not know anything about medical science, and keeping some bottles, false bottles, colored water. And if you declare sincerely that, "I am doctor, medical man," he is a cheater, he should be punished. Similarly, you profess your own way of religion, it doesn't matter, but you must follow that religion properly. *Just like Hindu religion, so who is a Hindu who does not accept Bhagavad*-gītā ? Then how he is Hindu if he does not accept Bhagavad-gītā ? If he says: "I am Hindu, but I don't believe in Bhagavad-gītā ," he should be immediately punished, that either you shall give up your name as Hindu or you must accept it, Bhagavad-gītā . If you say that you are Christian, you must accept Bible, the teachings of Bible. The teachings of Bible, the Ten Commandments, Christ says: "Thou shall not kill," and if you are killing, then you are not a Christian, you are cheater. The Muhammad says you must go five times to the mosque and offer prayers—if you want to kill animals, you must sacrifice it in this mosque. But he is not following that tenet, he is a cheater. It is state's duty is to see that either a Hindu or Muslim or Christian or anyone, he must following the religious principles. That is the duty. That is secular state. Not that because the state is secular you can do whatever you like. That is very irresponsible state. There is no harm, either you become a Christian or Hindu or Muslim. It doesn't matter. But you must follow the principles, then the state will be nice. If a man is strictly following some religious principle, it doesn't matter what religion he is following—then he is a good man. There is no doubt about it. No religion says that, "You become a thief, rascal." Just like in Muhammadan religion intoxication is strictly forbidden. In our Bhagavad-gītā also, the Buddha religion, ahiṁsā– but all the combined instruction of all the other religions you will find in Bhagavad-gītā . You find out this verse, ahiṁsā: *It includes all religious principles, the summary of all religions. Either a Hindu or a Muslim or a Christian—anyone can follow the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . *In Durban I was talking with some scholarly society. So there was a Indian, he belongs to the Ārya*-samāj , so he said that, "Swamījī, you are speaking on the Hindu conception of religion." Hindu conception of religion? When Kṛṣṇa says: *Dehāntara*-prāptir —a child is becoming a boy; *a boy is becoming a young man and a young man becoming an old man—is this Hindu conception? Just see. Rascals. A Muhammadan's child does not become a Muhammadan young man? The people are thinking, "Hindu conception." What do you mean by Hindu conception? When Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), that "You produce sufficient quantity of food grains, and everyone will be happy," is it meant for the Hindus, not for the Muhammadans? In this way study each and every verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . It is applicable to the whole human society. It is not a sectarian thing. Kṛṣṇa cannot speak anything sectarian. He says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the father of everyone." Does the father say anything particularly to one son and not for the others? If the father advises one son, "My dear boy, you do business like this. This is the way," is it meant for that particular boy and not for the others? Each and every verse you study, and you will see that it is meant for the whole human society. When He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), then what is that religion who will not think of God? Is there any religion which does not think of God? If one does not think of God, what kind of religion it is? So Bhagavad-gītā says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me—Kṛṣṇa, or God." So what is the wrong there? If I advise you, "You always think of God," it is a very wrong thing? So you study analytically. What is that verse, ahiṁs . . . amānitvam adambhitvam (BG 13.8). If you become humble and gentle, does it mean that you have to become a Hindu or Muslim? Every person should become humble and gentle, amānitvam adambhitvam . Ahiṁsā , you should not be violent. Every, each and every verse you study, it is not for the Hindus or Muhammadans. Everyone. For the human society. Read the translation. "Humility, pridelessness, nonviolence, tolerance, simplicity . . ." So is it for only for the Hindus? This instruction, what is that? "Humility, pridelessness . . ." Humility. Pridelessness. ". . . nonviolence . . ." Nonviolence. ". . . tolerance . . ." Tolerance. ". . . simplicity . . ." *Simplicity. What? What is that? Is it for the Hindus only? Or Muslims? Or Christians? How they are misguided, just see. And we are preaching this Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. How these Christians, they are taking? Even it is for Hindus, the Bible also teaches the same thing: "Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek." It is not sectarian at all. No religious book is sectarian, but according to the country, man. Just like in the Bible, Christ says: "Thou shalt not kill." So you can understand what kind of men they were—they are very expert in killing. Therefore the first instruction, "Thou shalt not kill" Because those who are sinful, killers, how they will understand about God? *One who is freed from all sinful activities, he can understand God. God is not so cheap. Yeṣāṁ tv anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ . These things have to be understood. I shall remain the most sinful man, and I want to understand God and I want to create God—this is going on. What is the difference between God, father and guru ? God is the supreme father. Guru is your father, your father is your father. God is supreme father. The Christian idea, God is the supreme father: "O God, give us our daily bread." Just like children in a family ask father, "Give me a biscuit," the father supplies. So God is supreme father—for everyone. Is there any difficulty? Is there any difficulty to understand? If God is the supreme father—is there any difficulty? If I pray "Our Father," then . . . (indistinct) . . . to Godhead? *Eh? What? He is the supreme father. He is father's father, grandfather's father, great*-grandfather's father—you go on. That is therefore He is called supreme father. If you stick to your father, there is no harm. Hindi me ek kahavat hai "guru govind dono khade kako lago pai balihari guru apne govind diyo batae" usme bataya hai pehle guru. (In Hindi there is a saying, " Guru govind dono khade kako lago pai balihari guru apne govind diyo batae ." That is first told to the master.) Guru kya batayeg sharab piyo to wo guru sala chor hai. (If the master says: "Drink alcohol," then he is a fraudulent master.) I am also asking this question . . . *First of all find out guru . Guru kaun hai abhi to bataya hai bar*-bar. Tomko jo bhagavan ka vishay batata hai wo guru hai aur nahi to chor hai. Guru to jante nahi nam dene se guru ho jata hai yehi to abhi bataya. Guru ka kam kya hai jo upar me le jayega wo guru hai guru ka matlab hai pocket-mar jo guru tumhara pocket me hai sab cheen liya bus ho gaya guru ye guru nahi guru ka kam hai tumko bachana. (Who is a master? Just now i told you again and again—one who tells you about God is a master, otherwise he is a cheater. I don't know who is a master—just by giving a name, he doesn't become a master. Just now I told what is the master's duty, to take you back home, back to Godhead. The master does not mean a cheater, one who takes away everything from your pocket and becomes a master this, is not a master. A master is one who saves you.) "One who cannot deliver his dependents from the path of repeated birth and death should never become a spiritual master, a father, a husband, a mother or a worshipable demigod." Purport "There are many spiritual masters, but Ṛṣabhadeva advises that one should not become a spiritual master if he is unable to save his disciple from the path of birth and death. Unless one is a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he cannot save himself from the path of repeated birth and death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti so'rjuna . One can stop birth and death only by returning home, back to Godhead. However, who can go back to Godhead unless he understands the Supreme Lord in truth? Janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ . We have many instances in history illustrating Ṛṣabhadeva's instructions. Śukrācārya was rejected by Bali Mahārāja due to his inability . . ." (break) (end) Conversation -- April 17, 1976, Bombay . . . stayed with the devotees in the temple . . . Hmm? . . . and reached the peace of mind which I was not able to get, whole of my life, I was able to achieve by staying in your temple myself. You know for example I am in my own . . . (break) As soon as you speak plain truth they will go away. (laughter) If you go on flattering, then they will stay. What is that? If you make Transcendental Meditation you will increase your sex power and . . . Rajneesh said that. Eh? Rajneesh said that. *Less blood*-pressure. Hmm? *He said last night, less blood*-pressure, from meditation. *Yes. Less blood*-pressure. The difficulty is that we want to be cheated, and there are so many cheaters. There are cheaters—if they find, "Here is a man he can be easily cheated," he takes advantage. But mostly they want to be cheated. As soon as you say that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," he will not take it very nice. "Why shall I surrender?" Is it not? What do you think? "This is too much." That means he wants to be cheated, and if somebody comes, "Why shall you surrender to Kṛṣṇa? You are independent. Why you are taking . . . why you are becoming dependent on God? You are working hard. Why you are giving credit to God." Yes. Big, big sannyāsī has said like this. If they say like that, then they are not sannyāsīs in the real sense of the word. He is a rascal. He is a rascal . . . They are not sannyāsīs in the real sense of the word. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ . This is the description. They do not surrender and they do not teach others to surrender. Then what they are? The formula is there: One who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they are described in this verse as duṣkṛtinaḥ , means most sinful; mūḍhāḥ , rascal; *narādhamāḥ , lowest of the mankind. "No, no. They are sannyāsī , very learned scholar." Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā : they have lost their knowledge by the influence of māyā . Why it is so? Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ . The root cause is that he is in rebellion against God. You'll find this rebellious men 99.9%. Rebellious. "Ha, what is God? I am God." You'll find. If you hold meeting that "Why you are after God? You are God. You will realize by meditate . . . by transcendental meditation you will become God, you are God." In this way if you bluff, thousands of people will come to hear your lecture, and as soon as you say: "God is there, and Kṛṣṇa is God. You surrender to Him," "Oh, these are old fools. Primitive." Kyon, hai ki nahi boliye. Yehi baat sab chal raha hai ki nahi? Aur aap boliye God nahi hai, khub aadmi ayega. Aur agar bol diye ki Krishna God hai to koi nahi ayega. Ye sectarian. (Why, tell me if it's true or not. Aren't these things going on? And if you say God does not exist, a lot of crowd will gather around. But if you say Kṛṣṇa is God then nobody will come. This is sectarian.) This is the position. Ayiye. (Please come.) Real understanding—to hear and to think over the matter. Tad viddhi . Viddhi means understand. *It is already there, Kṛṣṇa says. (break) Why he is wasting his time and money like that? It is already there: tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). Kṛṣṇa says. That means he does not believe in Kṛṣṇa. He is becoming more than Kṛṣṇa. Also he has collected so many facts. Why? What is the use of collecting facts if the fact is already there? Not it is there. It will be of some use to others, who don't believe. Don't believe in the rascals, mūḍhāḥ . So you can try for the mūḍhās . That is another thing. And waste your time. . . . (indistinct) But the fact is there already, any intelligent man can understand. Why . . . if they are trying for the mūḍhās , the mūḍhās will never understand. Huh. So which way is better, bhakti mārga or karma mārga ? No mārga . Knowledge first of all. Knowledge and then . . . *This is knowledge. Kṛṣṇa begins Bhagavad*-gītā with this knowledge. Because Arjuna showed the symptoms as if he is not in knowledge, therefore He chastised him: "My dear Arjuna, you are talking just like very learned man, but," gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ , "the subject matter which you have taken, this body, and you are lamenting about this body—'The body of my brother will be finished, my this will be finished, this will happen, this will happen'—only on the bodily concept." So this body, either when there is life or when there is no life, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś nānuśocanti paṇḍ . . . "This is not the subject matter of a learned scholar to study this body. It is a lump of matter. Try to understand what is within the body." *This is the beginning of knowledge. One who does not know this knowledge, his knowledge has no value, nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . He is not a paṇḍita . In another place it is confirmed, yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke . One who is accepting this body, as self. Eh? One who is accepting this body . . . the whole world is going on. This is the subject matter of our preaching, that "You are not this body, you are soul. You are part and parcel of God. Do like this." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This is the beginning of understanding. But everyone is under this concept that, "I am this body." "I am Hindu, "I am Muslim," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that." So on this basic principle of ignorance there cannot be any knowledge. You may be research scholar and this scholar, that scholar. This is a no . . . no. It is not the fieldwork of knowledge. (aside:) Hmm. Bring one knife. Svāmī, svāmī, how to cultivate the concentration, and what is the . . . (indistinct) Concentration . . . you are doing other businesses with concentration. You are doing work in the office with concentration. You are studying things with concentration. Similarly, you have to bring concentration for understanding what you are. Where is the difficulty? Concentration towards to higher . . . *Yes, concentration means if you study your body. Eh? So "What I am?" This subject matter you study, analyze your body. It is very easy, what is this body. First of all your breathing. Study what is his breathing. You'll say . . . you'll understand it is nothing but air. Do you think that breathing is life? Because this breathing, it is air, so when the breathing is stopped you can replace it by some mechanical arrangement. It is coming through the nose. But does it mean you can bring life? Hmm? So you study your breathing, you study your blood, you study your bone, you study your everything, whatever you have got, this combination—you'll find no life there. Then you understand that life is different from this material combination. This is concentration. You can do. It is very easy to analyze your whole body, and you'll find that that there is no life in these material ingredients, that life is different from this bodily combination. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā (BG 7.5). These material ingredients, they are inferior, aparā . There is a superior, superior thing, itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā . What is that? Jīva-bhūtā , that is living entity. So you can study your own thing, if you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Now Kṛṣṇa says like this, what is your objection? It is Hindu conception or Muslim conception? It is for everyone. Concentration is just . . . Hmm. A child's concentration is just, the other . . . (aside) Hmm. You cannot cut it? The knife is not very sharp . . . Eh? The knife is not very sharp. Hmm, that is not the way to cut it. Hmm? Take out this slice, some slice . . . Yes. . . . and cut it into two pieces. Yes. You do not know how to cut. One who knows, let him cut. Take out a full slice. Thoda dikha do. (Show him a little bit.) . . . (indistinct Hindi) *Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). (laughter) This is sharp. Everything requires a guru; otherwise he remains a fool, rascal, that's all. Do do, usko do. (Give give, give it to him.) . . .(indistinct) . . . nahi hoga. (is not possible.) Prasad ka zyada box hai. Do na, do do. (There are many boxes of prasadam , give to him.) Hmm. Ab dekhiye . . . (Now, you see . . .) In every item you require a guru . And to understand Kṛṣṇa, or God, everyone is independent. (laughter) Just see the foolishness. Yata mata tata patha . "Ah, you consider about your own God. It doesn't require any guru ." This foolishness is going on. For cutting a mango he requires a guru , and to understand Kṛṣṇa, he doesn't require a guru . This foolishness is going on. And Kṛṣṇa says: Kṛṣṇa says you have to understand, like this. But everyone is thinking, "Why shall I go to guru?" (aside) Aur kato. (Cut some more.) What is this? Take this. Oh, that's all . . . Vegetable . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . (indistinct Hindi) She just left. Ācchā . Why left? Ghar me kuch log aaye. (Some guests have come home.) Just see how he has cut. It requires a guru . (laughter) Here, this morning, I was citing that a brahmacārī should be very expert, dakṣā . Was I not explaining? Behavior. So if you do not become expert, then there is deficiency. (aside) No, distribute this. First of all finish that, then . . . keep it, give everyone. One piece, everyone. We cut it up smaller. Hmm. For everyone, a little smaller. *No small. Give him. No, no, that's right. Hmm. Sab cheez Bhagavad*-Gita me hai. Usko theek-theek se padhe aur usme concentrate kare to sab gyan ho jayega. (All knowledge is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . One must read it scrutinizingly and concentrate on it, then all knowledge will come.) But if he wants to remain a fool, rascal, what can be done? Every direction is there, and it is given by Kṛṣṇa for this purpose, that when He will be absent, this is left for their study; *they will get knowledge. Thoda uske haat me pani do. Idhar aao, neeche jane ka zaroorat nahi, idhar dega pani. Okhan balti me jal aache? Dala. (Put a little water on his hands. Come here. No no, there is no need to go down, he will give water here. Is there water in that bucket? Put some.) We are simply canvassing that "You understand Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and you get all knowledge." This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Haat dho ke aao . . . (Wash your hands and come . . .) This is our mission. We are not manufacturing anything. That is not our purpose. As others are manufacturing the ways of realization, we don't do that. This is not our behavior, because we know we are personally defective. We are all fools. But what I am speaking, that is not defective—that is perfect, because we are speaking Kṛṣṇa's word. Hmm. That is not defective, that is perfect. So we are teaching our preachers that, "Don't say anything defective. Simply say what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. That is perfect." And whatever little success is there, only on account of this, that we don't manufacture anything, we simply present what Kṛṣṇa has said. Some imaginary . . . ek-ek sab manufacture karke bade-bade sab swami, yogi ye sab jata hai. Apna time bhi barbad karta hai aur doosro ka time bhi barbad karta hai. Ye sab chal raha hai. (Each one manufactures their own, the big big swamis , yogis go and preach. They waste their time and also waste the time of others. All these things are going on.) If the tree already is there, why should we manufacture and research? What is this research? . . . (indistinct) There are millions and millions of living entities, and they are making research in the laboratory how to produce life from matter. Just see. How rascaldom is going on. What credit you will get? Suppose you, in the laboratory, you produce one life from matter. Suppose. You have not done it, suppose you do it. Then what is credit to you? There are already millions and millions of lives. We are overcrowded. (laughter) And this rascal is trying to produce a life in the laboratory. Just see, how rascal they are. We may be thinking only God can produce this, but . . . No, no, apart from God, but what credit you'll get if already there are millions and millions of living entities all around? What credit you will get, suppose in the test tube you create one life in the laboratory? Who will give you credit? Only the fools and rascals will give. I will not give. We know that already there are so many lives. So we give that person who has created so many lives. Why shall I give you credit? Hmm? There are millions and millions of goldmines, eh? So I shall give the credit to Him, or a rascal producing a little piece of gold I shall give him credit? If gold producing is so important that one who has created millions and millions of mines of gold . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . . . . he is to take credit . . . (aside) Oh, come on . . . (laughter) He is to take credit, or one who has produced a little piece of gold, he is to take credit? Boliye , whom I shall give credit? Last year I went to South America, er, Africa. In the Johannesburg city there are so many goldmines. In the city, so many goldmines. So who has created this gold? (aside) Thank you. So many goldmines I have seen. And this is in one planet, there are millions of planets there are also goldmines. Who has created this gold? Somebody has created. So whom shall I give credit? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . or this? I think by jñāna mārga they are working with Kṛṣṇa. *What is jñāna ? If they do not take the jñāna given by Kṛṣṇa, what is jñāna*-mārga ? It is ajñāna-mārga . Kṛṣṇa is giving you jñāna —you refuse to take it—and what is your jñāna-mārga ? As your disciple knows, they were spreading . . . No disciple or your disciple. I say that if there is jñāna already, so if you don't accept it, then what is your jñāna mārga then? No, they accept the jñāna , and then they utilize it . . . What is the meaning of jñāna ? Huh? What is the definition of jñāna ? No, I mean what is the fact? So what do you think, fact? After seeing the mountain, they found that it, how the mountain is built, and they have created cement. So we can build houses, just like Kṛṣṇa's agent. Likewise I humbly think that in jñāna mārga they seem to work, those who are doing it. To manufacture cement? No. Manufacturing anything, they are also going with Kṛṣṇa, going with the nature. They are not going against the nature. And we, or one people are going against nature, and so we are suffering. If we are sick, doctor advises to go with the nature. (aside) Thank you. Hmm. Jñāna mārga , if you actually in knowledge, that is jñāna mārga . But if you not in knowledge, that is not jñāna mārga . (several talking simultaneously) Eh? Knowledge of the self is jñāna mārga . Yes, that is the first knowledge. It is not in . . . (indistinct) Yes. First of all you have to know what you are. Because you are trying to adjust things to mitigate your distress and increasing your happiness. This is the struggle. Everyone is struggle for minimizing distress or making zero distress and getting happiness. But do you think in this world this is obtained, this stage is achieved, that there is no distress, only happiness? Then what is your jñāna mārga ? If there is still distress, then what is your jñāna mārga ? That means ajñāna mārga . You are trying, making research, to banish distress and get happiness, but if you have not gained that position, then where is your jñāna mārga ? Who has obtained that position that there is no distress, simply happiness? Is there anybody here? Everyone says: "Oh, I am so much distressed." Then where is jñāna mārga ? But there's nothing wrong in enquiring into the . . . No, you can waste your time . . . . . . into the nature. *That is another thing. That is another foolishness. That is another foolishness. If you search out in your own way, moghāśā mogha*-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). If you do not know the way, then what is the use? You will be baffled. You will be baffled. Suppose in the airplane, if you do not know which side I shall go to Calcutta, then you will be baffled. He must know which side—north, east, west, the latitude, longitude—then the pilot is expert. Suppose I am on the plane, and the pilot is there. Without pilot we are all bewildered. We do not know. Suppose if somehow or other on the plane the pilot is finished, then see what is your condition. Your all jñāna mārga will be finished. You can't go then. (laughter) So without pilot there is no jñāna mārga . Ye gyan marga do prakar ka bataya jata hai kya? (Is this path of knowledge described as two types?) Gyan marg do prakar ka, ek mūrkha mārga hota hai, gyan marg hota hai. Jo gyan marg me hai nahi vo moorkha marg me hai bus. Agar moorkh marg ko koi gyan marg samajh le to do number ka moorkh hai. Double mūrkha hai. This is going on. Gyan marg ka arth hota hai jo gyani hai, usko baat se chalo to gyan marg chalega. (The path of knowledge is of two types. One is the fool's path and the other is the knowledge path. One who is not in the path of knowledge is on the fool's path, that's all. If someone considers the fool's path as the path of knowledge then he is number two fool, he is a double fool. This is going on. The meaning of the knowledge path is when one follows the words of the realized soul, that is the path of knowledge.) Aeroplane kisne banaya tha? (Who built the airplane?) Jo banaya, aeroplane me agar kisi tarah se wo pilot hai, khatam ho jata hai . . . (Whoever made it, if somehow the pilot of the airplane is destroyed . . .) Aeroplane banane wala to gyan marg me hi hota hai na? (The one who built the airplane, he is in the path of knowledge, right?) *Aise to chidiya bhi bana leta hai apna nest, uska bhi gyan hai. Wo bhi janta hai ek chota*-chota . . .(indistinct) . . . le aa karke kaise sundar ek nest bana leta hai. Aap dekha hai, Babui, ek pakshi hoti hai wo apna kaisa ghar bana leti hai. Aisa gyan chidiya me hai, cheeti me hai, wo aap se kuch farak nahi hai. "Aahar, nidra, bhaya, maithun" ye sab gyan sab me hai. Ye na samajhiye ki ye gyan aap hi me hai, cement bana ke skyscraper bana diya. Wo gyan sab me hai, apna - apna aavashyata ke anusar sab apna bana lete hain. Wo gyan marg nahi hai. (In that sense, even a bird makes it's own nest, it also has knowledgeable. Even the bird knows, how to gather small small twigs, and makes a beautiful nest out of it. Have you seen how the Babui bird builds its house? The birds have got this kind of knowledge, even an ant has got it. That's not different from us. Aahar nidra bhaya maithun , all this knowledge is present with everyone. Don't think that only you have got this knowledge of making cement and building a skyscraper. This knowledge is there in everyone. According to their requirements they build it. That is not the path of knowledge.) Tad vijñānam, it is said. The ordinary jñāna is not recommended. Tad vijñānam. Viśeṣa jñāna, or scientific knowledge, that is wanted. Aur aisa gyan, chor ka bhi gyan hota hai kis tarah se chori karna hai. Jo chori karta hai wo moorkh nahi hota hai, bada gyani hota hai, kis tarah se chori karna hota hai. Usko gyani bola jayega? Bada accha gyani chor hai ji, isko PhD card de do. Ye gyan nahi hai (laughter) Etad jñānam. Just see what is jñānam. Eh. Kisko gyan bolta hai suniye. ( And similar knowledge even a thief has, how to steal. And a thief who steals is not a fool, he is very intelligent, he knows how to steal. So can a thief be called realized? Very nice realized thief sir, award him a PhD title. This is not knowledge. Etad jñānam. Just see what is jñānam. Listen, who is actually called a knowledgeable person.) Amānitvam adambhitvam , in the Thirteenth Chapter you will find, amānitvam adambhitvam (BG 13.8). . . . (indistinct) Ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam , ācāryopāsanaṁ . Hmm. Read it. There's five verses together. Eh? *Adhyātma*-jñāna-nityatvaṁ . Then? Hmm. Etaj jñānam iti proktam . . . Etaj jñānam . This is jñāna . Or all rascals. Etaj jñānam , vijñānaṁ . Ye jñānam . Or all rascaldom. Etaj jñānam . . . Iti proktam . . . . iti proktam . This is accepted knowledge. And then? Ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā . Ah. Except this, all are ajñānam , all rascaldom. The cement manufacturer is a rascal, and the atom bomb rascal—all rascal. And here is jñāna . Etaj jñānam . Everything is there. Etaj jñānam . Then? Yad ato 'nyathā ajñānaṁ . Is it not? Ha. Hmm. Etaj jñānam iti proktam ajñānaṁ yad ato . . . Anyathā . Anyathā . Iti proktam , it is accepted this is jñāna . Yad anyathā ajñānaṁ . What was going on just now, for a long time . . . Hmm. . . . was just meditation, without knowledge, which actually . . . This is meditation. No, which was actually speculation. Hmm. Meditation with knowledge, that becomes devotion. Yes, knowledge you have to receive from the person who knows. That is knowledge. If I question someone . . . If you manufacturer knowledge, that is ignorance. So if it was just meditation but without the air of knowledge . . . Yes, meditation means . . . . . . it was just speculation . . . Hmm. Meditation . . . . . . and we were just speculating in different directions. *. . . that is defined, that dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena (SB 12.13.1). Dhyānāva , this is meditation. So this is meditation, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). Yogī , they want to see Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ (BG 18.61), Īśvara is there, so yoga means to find out that īśvaraḥ within the heart. That is real yoga . The effort was there, but they were just speculating. No, effort, any effort, if you do not follow . . . Yes . . . . . . the instruction of higher authority, this is useless effort. Simply waste of time. You cannot become by your own effort a medical man. That is not possible. You have to go to the medical college, you have to learn under the medical man—then you become a medical man. Otherwise, if you sit down at home and meditate on medical science, what you will get? You will simply waste your time. First of all know what is jñānam . The first jñāna is amānitvam . What is the meaning is there? Humility. Humility. The first requisition is humility that, "I have no knowledge; I have to go to somebody who has knowledge." This is humility. And if you think, "I have got very advanced knowledge. Why shall I go to anyone?" there is no entrance in knowledge. He is finished in the beginning. " amānitvam adambhitvam ahimsa shanti aarjavam " everything is there. This is gyanam , etad gyanam proktam agyanam yad anyatha . And as soon as we debate these fools think we are in agyanam , foolish. So while gyanam is there, shy we should become agyanam . Yes, ārati . Aarti chal rahi hai mandir me, sab aaiyega. ( Arati is going on in the temple, everyone should come.) All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. (offer obeisances) Yes, also. (break) Everyone should become a preacher. Sometime we should go to Bihar also? Why not? Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (Caitanya Bhāgavata). (aside) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- April 17, 1976, Bombay . . . stayed with the devotees in the temple . . . Hmm? . . . and reached the peace of mind which I was not able to get, whole of my life, I was able to achieve by staying in your temple myself. You know for example I am in my own . . . (break) As soon as you speak plain truth they will go away. (laughter) If you go on flattering, then they will stay. What is that? If you make Transcendental Meditation you will increase your sex power and . . . Rajneesh said that. Eh? Rajneesh said that. *Less blood*-pressure. Hmm? *He said last night, less blood*-pressure, from meditation. *Yes. Less blood*-pressure. The difficulty is that we want to be cheated, and there are so many cheaters. There are cheaters—if they find, "Here is a man he can be easily cheated," he takes advantage. But mostly they want to be cheated. As soon as you say that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," he will not take it very nice. "Why shall I surrender?" Is it not? What do you think? "This is too much." That means he wants to be cheated, and if somebody comes, "Why shall you surrender to Kṛṣṇa? You are independent. Why you are taking . . . why you are becoming dependent on God? You are working hard. Why you are giving credit to God." Yes. Big, big sannyāsī has said like this. If they say like that, then they are not sannyāsīs in the real sense of the word. He is a rascal. He is a rascal . . . They are not sannyāsīs in the real sense of the word. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ . This is the description. They do not surrender and they do not teach others to surrender. Then what they are? The formula is there: One who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they are described in this verse as duṣkṛtinaḥ , means most sinful; mūḍhāḥ , rascal; *narādhamāḥ , lowest of the mankind. "No, no. They are sannyāsī , very learned scholar." Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā : they have lost their knowledge by the influence of māyā . Why it is so? Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ . The root cause is that he is in rebellion against God. You'll find this rebellious men 99.9%. Rebellious. "Ha, what is God? I am God." You'll find. If you hold meeting that "Why you are after God? You are God. You will realize by meditate . . . by transcendental meditation you will become God, you are God." In this way if you bluff, thousands of people will come to hear your lecture, and as soon as you say: "God is there, and Kṛṣṇa is God. You surrender to Him," "Oh, these are old fools. Primitive." Kyon, hai ki nahi boliye. Yehi baat sab chal raha hai ki nahi? Aur aap boliye God nahi hai, khub aadmi ayega. Aur agar bol diye ki Krishna God hai to koi nahi ayega. Ye sectarian. (Why, tell me if it's true or not. Aren't these things going on? And if you say God does not exist, a lot of crowd will gather around. But if you say Kṛṣṇa is God then nobody will come. This is sectarian.) This is the position. Ayiye. (Please come.) Real understanding—to hear and to think over the matter. Tad viddhi . Viddhi means understand. *It is already there, Kṛṣṇa says. (break) Why he is wasting his time and money like that? It is already there: tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). Kṛṣṇa says. That means he does not believe in Kṛṣṇa. He is becoming more than Kṛṣṇa. Also he has collected so many facts. Why? What is the use of collecting facts if the fact is already there? Not it is there. It will be of some use to others, who don't believe. Don't believe in the rascals, mūḍhāḥ . So you can try for the mūḍhās . That is another thing. And waste your time. . . . (indistinct) But the fact is there already, any intelligent man can understand. Why . . . if they are trying for the mūḍhās , the mūḍhās will never understand. Huh. So which way is better, bhakti mārga or karma mārga ? No mārga . Knowledge first of all. Knowledge and then . . . *This is knowledge. Kṛṣṇa begins Bhagavad*-gītā with this knowledge. Because Arjuna showed the symptoms as if he is not in knowledge, therefore He chastised him: "My dear Arjuna, you are talking just like very learned man, but," gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ , "the subject matter which you have taken, this body, and you are lamenting about this body—'The body of my brother will be finished, my this will be finished, this will happen, this will happen'—only on the bodily concept." So this body, either when there is life or when there is no life, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś nānuśocanti paṇḍ . . . "This is not the subject matter of a learned scholar to study this body. It is a lump of matter. Try to understand what is within the body." *This is the beginning of knowledge. One who does not know this knowledge, his knowledge has no value, nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . He is not a paṇḍita . In another place it is confirmed, yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke . One who is accepting this body, as self. Eh? One who is accepting this body . . . the whole world is going on. This is the subject matter of our preaching, that "You are not this body, you are soul. You are part and parcel of God. Do like this." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This is the beginning of understanding. But everyone is under this concept that, "I am this body." "I am Hindu, "I am Muslim," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that." So on this basic principle of ignorance there cannot be any knowledge. You may be research scholar and this scholar, that scholar. This is a no . . . no. It is not the fieldwork of knowledge. (aside:) Hmm. Bring one knife. Svāmī, svāmī, how to cultivate the concentration, and what is the . . . (indistinct) Concentration . . . you are doing other businesses with concentration. You are doing work in the office with concentration. You are studying things with concentration. Similarly, you have to bring concentration for understanding what you are. Where is the difficulty? Concentration towards to higher . . . *Yes, concentration means if you study your body. Eh? So "What I am?" This subject matter you study, analyze your body. It is very easy, what is this body. First of all your breathing. Study what is his breathing. You'll say . . . you'll understand it is nothing but air. Do you think that breathing is life? Because this breathing, it is air, so when the breathing is stopped you can replace it by some mechanical arrangement. It is coming through the nose. But does it mean you can bring life? Hmm? So you study your breathing, you study your blood, you study your bone, you study your everything, whatever you have got, this combination—you'll find no life there. Then you understand that life is different from this material combination. This is concentration. You can do. It is very easy to analyze your whole body, and you'll find that that there is no life in these material ingredients, that life is different from this bodily combination. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā (BG 7.5). These material ingredients, they are inferior, aparā . There is a superior, superior thing, itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā . What is that? Jīva-bhūtā , that is living entity. So you can study your own thing, if you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Now Kṛṣṇa says like this, what is your objection? It is Hindu conception or Muslim conception? It is for everyone. Concentration is just . . . Hmm. A child's concentration is just, the other . . . (aside) Hmm. You cannot cut it? The knife is not very sharp . . . Eh? The knife is not very sharp. Hmm, that is not the way to cut it. Hmm? Take out this slice, some slice . . . Yes. . . . and cut it into two pieces. Yes. You do not know how to cut. One who knows, let him cut. Take out a full slice. Thoda dikha do. (Show him a little bit.) . . . (indistinct Hindi) *Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). (laughter) This is sharp. Everything requires a guru; otherwise he remains a fool, rascal, that's all. Do do, usko do. (Give give, give it to him.) . . .(indistinct) . . . nahi hoga. (is not possible.) Prasad ka zyada box hai. Do na, do do. (There are many boxes of prasadam , give to him.) Hmm. Ab dekhiye . . . (Now, you see . . .) In every item you require a guru . And to understand Kṛṣṇa, or God, everyone is independent. (laughter) Just see the foolishness. Yata mata tata patha . "Ah, you consider about your own God. It doesn't require any guru ." This foolishness is going on. For cutting a mango he requires a guru , and to understand Kṛṣṇa, he doesn't require a guru . This foolishness is going on. And Kṛṣṇa says: Kṛṣṇa says you have to understand, like this. But everyone is thinking, "Why shall I go to guru?" (aside) Aur kato. (Cut some more.) What is this? Take this. Oh, that's all . . . Vegetable . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . (indistinct Hindi) She just left. Ācchā . Why left? Ghar me kuch log aaye. (Some guests have come home.) Just see how he has cut. It requires a guru . (laughter) Here, this morning, I was citing that a brahmacārī should be very expert, dakṣā . Was I not explaining? Behavior. So if you do not become expert, then there is deficiency. (aside) No, distribute this. First of all finish that, then . . . keep it, give everyone. One piece, everyone. We cut it up smaller. Hmm. For everyone, a little smaller. *No small. Give him. No, no, that's right. Hmm. Sab cheez Bhagavad*-Gita me hai. Usko theek-theek se padhe aur usme concentrate kare to sab gyan ho jayega. (All knowledge is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . One must read it scrutinizingly and concentrate on it, then all knowledge will come.) But if he wants to remain a fool, rascal, what can be done? Every direction is there, and it is given by Kṛṣṇa for this purpose, that when He will be absent, this is left for their study; *they will get knowledge. Thoda uske haat me pani do. Idhar aao, neeche jane ka zaroorat nahi, idhar dega pani. Okhan balti me jal aache? Dala. (Put a little water on his hands. Come here. No no, there is no need to go down, he will give water here. Is there water in that bucket? Put some.) We are simply canvassing that "You understand Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and you get all knowledge." This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Haat dho ke aao . . . (Wash your hands and come . . .) This is our mission. We are not manufacturing anything. That is not our purpose. As others are manufacturing the ways of realization, we don't do that. This is not our behavior, because we know we are personally defective. We are all fools. But what I am speaking, that is not defective—that is perfect, because we are speaking Kṛṣṇa's word. Hmm. That is not defective, that is perfect. So we are teaching our preachers that, "Don't say anything defective. Simply say what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. That is perfect." And whatever little success is there, only on account of this, that we don't manufacture anything, we simply present what Kṛṣṇa has said. Some imaginary . . . ek-ek sab manufacture karke bade-bade sab swami, yogi ye sab jata hai. Apna time bhi barbad karta hai aur doosro ka time bhi barbad karta hai. Ye sab chal raha hai. (Each one manufactures their own, the big big swamis , yogis go and preach. They waste their time and also waste the time of others. All these things are going on.) If the tree already is there, why should we manufacture and research? What is this research? . . . (indistinct) There are millions and millions of living entities, and they are making research in the laboratory how to produce life from matter. Just see. How rascaldom is going on. What credit you will get? Suppose you, in the laboratory, you produce one life from matter. Suppose. You have not done it, suppose you do it. Then what is credit to you? There are already millions and millions of lives. We are overcrowded. (laughter) And this rascal is trying to produce a life in the laboratory. Just see, how rascal they are. We may be thinking only God can produce this, but . . . No, no, apart from God, but what credit you'll get if already there are millions and millions of living entities all around? What credit you will get, suppose in the test tube you create one life in the laboratory? Who will give you credit? Only the fools and rascals will give. I will not give. We know that already there are so many lives. So we give that person who has created so many lives. Why shall I give you credit? Hmm? There are millions and millions of goldmines, eh? So I shall give the credit to Him, or a rascal producing a little piece of gold I shall give him credit? If gold producing is so important that one who has created millions and millions of mines of gold . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . . . . he is to take credit . . . (aside) Oh, come on . . . (laughter) He is to take credit, or one who has produced a little piece of gold, he is to take credit? Boliye , whom I shall give credit? Last year I went to South America, er, Africa. In the Johannesburg city there are so many goldmines. In the city, so many goldmines. So who has created this gold? (aside) Thank you. So many goldmines I have seen. And this is in one planet, there are millions of planets there are also goldmines. Who has created this gold? Somebody has created. So whom shall I give credit? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . or this? I think by jñāna mārga they are working with Kṛṣṇa. *What is jñāna ? If they do not take the jñāna given by Kṛṣṇa, what is jñāna*-mārga ? It is ajñāna-mārga . Kṛṣṇa is giving you jñāna —you refuse to take it—and what is your jñāna-mārga ? As your disciple knows, they were spreading . . . No disciple or your disciple. I say that if there is jñāna already, so if you don't accept it, then what is your jñāna mārga then? No, they accept the jñāna , and then they utilize it . . . What is the meaning of jñāna ? Huh? What is the definition of jñāna ? No, I mean what is the fact? So what do you think, fact? After seeing the mountain, they found that it, how the mountain is built, and they have created cement. So we can build houses, just like Kṛṣṇa's agent. Likewise I humbly think that in jñāna mārga they seem to work, those who are doing it. To manufacture cement? No. Manufacturing anything, they are also going with Kṛṣṇa, going with the nature. They are not going against the nature. And we, or one people are going against nature, and so we are suffering. If we are sick, doctor advises to go with the nature. (aside) Thank you. Hmm. Jñāna mārga , if you actually in knowledge, that is jñāna mārga . But if you not in knowledge, that is not jñāna mārga . (several talking simultaneously) Eh? Knowledge of the self is jñāna mārga . Yes, that is the first knowledge. It is not in . . . (indistinct) Yes. First of all you have to know what you are. Because you are trying to adjust things to mitigate your distress and increasing your happiness. This is the struggle. Everyone is struggle for minimizing distress or making zero distress and getting happiness. But do you think in this world this is obtained, this stage is achieved, that there is no distress, only happiness? Then what is your jñāna mārga ? If there is still distress, then what is your jñāna mārga ? That means ajñāna mārga . You are trying, making research, to banish distress and get happiness, but if you have not gained that position, then where is your jñāna mārga ? Who has obtained that position that there is no distress, simply happiness? Is there anybody here? Everyone says: "Oh, I am so much distressed." Then where is jñāna mārga ? But there's nothing wrong in enquiring into the . . . No, you can waste your time . . . . . . into the nature. *That is another thing. That is another foolishness. That is another foolishness. If you search out in your own way, moghāśā mogha*-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). If you do not know the way, then what is the use? You will be baffled. You will be baffled. Suppose in the airplane, if you do not know which side I shall go to Calcutta, then you will be baffled. He must know which side—north, east, west, the latitude, longitude—then the pilot is expert. Suppose I am on the plane, and the pilot is there. Without pilot we are all bewildered. We do not know. Suppose if somehow or other on the plane the pilot is finished, then see what is your condition. Your all jñāna mārga will be finished. You can't go then. (laughter) So without pilot there is no jñāna mārga . Ye gyan marga do prakar ka bataya jata hai kya? (Is this path of knowledge described as two types?) Gyan marg do prakar ka, ek mūrkha mārga hota hai, gyan marg hota hai. Jo gyan marg me hai nahi vo moorkha marg me hai bus. Agar moorkh marg ko koi gyan marg samajh le to do number ka moorkh hai. Double mūrkha hai. This is going on. Gyan marg ka arth hota hai jo gyani hai, usko baat se chalo to gyan marg chalega. (The path of knowledge is of two types. One is the fool's path and the other is the knowledge path. One who is not in the path of knowledge is on the fool's path, that's all. If someone considers the fool's path as the path of knowledge then he is number two fool, he is a double fool. This is going on. The meaning of the knowledge path is when one follows the words of the realized soul, that is the path of knowledge.) Aeroplane kisne banaya tha? (Who built the airplane?) Jo banaya, aeroplane me agar kisi tarah se wo pilot hai, khatam ho jata hai . . . (Whoever made it, if somehow the pilot of the airplane is destroyed . . .) Aeroplane banane wala to gyan marg me hi hota hai na? (The one who built the airplane, he is in the path of knowledge, right?) *Aise to chidiya bhi bana leta hai apna nest, uska bhi gyan hai. Wo bhi janta hai ek chota*-chota . . .(indistinct) . . . le aa karke kaise sundar ek nest bana leta hai. Aap dekha hai, Babui, ek pakshi hoti hai wo apna kaisa ghar bana leti hai. Aisa gyan chidiya me hai, cheeti me hai, wo aap se kuch farak nahi hai. "Aahar, nidra, bhaya, maithun" ye sab gyan sab me hai. Ye na samajhiye ki ye gyan aap hi me hai, cement bana ke skyscraper bana diya. Wo gyan sab me hai, apna - apna aavashyata ke anusar sab apna bana lete hain. Wo gyan marg nahi hai. (In that sense, even a bird makes it's own nest, it also has knowledgeable. Even the bird knows, how to gather small small twigs, and makes a beautiful nest out of it. Have you seen how the Babui bird builds its house? The birds have got this kind of knowledge, even an ant has got it. That's not different from us. Aahar nidra bhaya maithun , all this knowledge is present with everyone. Don't think that only you have got this knowledge of making cement and building a skyscraper. This knowledge is there in everyone. According to their requirements they build it. That is not the path of knowledge.) Tad vijñānam, it is said. The ordinary jñāna is not recommended. Tad vijñānam. Viśeṣa jñāna, or scientific knowledge, that is wanted. Aur aisa gyan, chor ka bhi gyan hota hai kis tarah se chori karna hai. Jo chori karta hai wo moorkh nahi hota hai, bada gyani hota hai, kis tarah se chori karna hota hai. Usko gyani bola jayega? Bada accha gyani chor hai ji, isko PhD card de do. Ye gyan nahi hai (laughter) Etad jñānam. Just see what is jñānam. Eh. Kisko gyan bolta hai suniye. ( And similar knowledge even a thief has, how to steal. And a thief who steals is not a fool, he is very intelligent, he knows how to steal. So can a thief be called realized? Very nice realized thief sir, award him a PhD title. This is not knowledge. Etad jñānam. Just see what is jñānam. Listen, who is actually called a knowledgeable person.) Amānitvam adambhitvam , in the Thirteenth Chapter you will find, amānitvam adambhitvam (BG 13.8). . . . (indistinct) Ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam , ācāryopāsanaṁ . Hmm. Read it. There's five verses together. Eh? *Adhyātma*-jñāna-nityatvaṁ . Then? Hmm. Etaj jñānam iti proktam . . . Etaj jñānam . This is jñāna . Or all rascals. Etaj jñānam , vijñānaṁ . Ye jñānam . Or all rascaldom. Etaj jñānam . . . Iti proktam . . . . iti proktam . This is accepted knowledge. And then? Ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā . Ah. Except this, all are ajñānam , all rascaldom. The cement manufacturer is a rascal, and the atom bomb rascal—all rascal. And here is jñāna . Etaj jñānam . Everything is there. Etaj jñānam . Then? Yad ato 'nyathā ajñānaṁ . Is it not? Ha. Hmm. Etaj jñānam iti proktam ajñānaṁ yad ato . . . Anyathā . Anyathā . Iti proktam , it is accepted this is jñāna . Yad anyathā ajñānaṁ . What was going on just now, for a long time . . . Hmm. . . . was just meditation, without knowledge, which actually . . . This is meditation. No, which was actually speculation. Hmm. Meditation with knowledge, that becomes devotion. Yes, knowledge you have to receive from the person who knows. That is knowledge. If I question someone . . . If you manufacturer knowledge, that is ignorance. So if it was just meditation but without the air of knowledge . . . Yes, meditation means . . . . . . it was just speculation . . . Hmm. Meditation . . . . . . and we were just speculating in different directions. *. . . that is defined, that dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena (SB 12.13.1). Dhyānāva , this is meditation. So this is meditation, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). Yogī , they want to see Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ (BG 18.61), Īśvara is there, so yoga means to find out that īśvaraḥ within the heart. That is real yoga . The effort was there, but they were just speculating. No, effort, any effort, if you do not follow . . . Yes . . . . . . the instruction of higher authority, this is useless effort. Simply waste of time. You cannot become by your own effort a medical man. That is not possible. You have to go to the medical college, you have to learn under the medical man—then you become a medical man. Otherwise, if you sit down at home and meditate on medical science, what you will get? You will simply waste your time. First of all know what is jñānam . The first jñāna is amānitvam . What is the meaning is there? Humility. Humility. The first requisition is humility that, "I have no knowledge; I have to go to somebody who has knowledge." This is humility. And if you think, "I have got very advanced knowledge. Why shall I go to anyone?" there is no entrance in knowledge. He is finished in the beginning. " amānitvam adambhitvam ahimsa shanti aarjavam " everything is there. This is gyanam , etad gyanam proktam agyanam yad anyatha . And as soon as we debate these fools think we are in agyanam , foolish. So while gyanam is there, shy we should become agyanam . Yes, ārati . Aarti chal rahi hai mandir me, sab aaiyega. ( Arati is going on in the temple, everyone should come.) All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. (offer obeisances) Yes, also. (break) Everyone should become a preacher. Sometime we should go to Bihar also? Why not? Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (Caitanya Bhāgavata). (aside) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- April 20, 1976, Melbourne (Conversation & TV Interview with Mike Barron) But still, he did it. Arjuna, in the beginning, thought that he should not kill. Come on. He's ready downstairs. Huh? (break) . . . can you think about the living pulse which is beating, the heart, heart failure? Why don't you bring it into palpitation again? If you study that air . . . air . . . air you bring artificially. Push it. Why don't you do it if you are so great scientist? Is it very difficult? So in anything, air is fi . . . just like in the tire tube. Air is finished. Push it, air, it is all right. So do you think it is air, the palpitation? You are so foolish? And passing as a scientist? Air can be replaced. It is difficult? Just like tire tube air, a huge quantity to work. You immediately, within a second . . . so why do you say: "Now, now the breathing is stopped"? Breathing is stopped, air stopped. What is their answer? Hmm? They have no answer. The cells have died. Huh? The cells have died. Seller? Tiny cells in the body have died. Then don't say that, "Breathing is stopped. Therefore he is dead." Don't talk nonsense. Why do you talk like that, "Now breathing is stopped. He's dead"? Talk in right language if you are scientist. Why you are talking like that, "The air is stopped. The breathing is stopped. Therefore dead"? That's not a fact. So you are stating which is not a fact. Why you claim that you are scientist? That is the challenge. Hmm? Then again you come to the blood. What is blood? Red water. So if you say that this, that, so many jugglery of words, so manufacture. Water mix with the red color and give these, these so many rascal things. They don't have artificial blood. I don't think they can make artificial blood. Nothing. Artificial blood . . . superficially it is red water. So if red water is the life, then why you are spoiling so much blood? Keep it scientifically and push it into the dead body. I say it is, that way, it is the red water, nothing but red water. Urine is white water. I am coming to the five elements—air, water. Then what is this bone? Earth. You can manufacture bone, hard bone, with earth or wood or something plastic. So we are analyzing the combination of the body, so everything you can manufacture. But where is the life you can manufacture? Why do you say? That is our challenge. All the ingredients of the body you can manufacture exactly like that. Ultimately you can give the beauty also of the woman or the man. But where is life? Bring life by all these things. Then I will say that you are scientist. Otherwise cheater, simply bluffing people. This thing should be stopped. Where you get the information that this, from matter life is possible. "In future." But in future . . . in inceptive condition you show something. Just like formerly they were flying balloons. So because they were flying, they could say that "Future we shall fly a big city." And in the history we can see that that is not impossible, because in the inceptive condition or initiative condition we see that big things can be flown. But here you cannot even prepare a ant. You have not been able to prepare even a small ant, germ. Show me. So why do you say: "In future I shall do it"? Some of these creature don't even have hearts. Eh? Some of the insects don't even have hearts. And how do you say? They have everything. You have no intelligence to understand. Everything, all anatomic physiology is there, even the small full stop, you cannot see even, microbe. That is God's creation. You mean to say . . . I have seen very minute, walking very . . . exactly like a big . . . In Vṛndāvana, when we were staying at Bon's place, there was big colony of ants. Ants, thousands of them. Yes, they have got all the sense, all the sympathy. For eating, sleeping, mating, they have got all intelligence. What I mean to say is, physiologically speaking, at least from biological viewpoint, some of these creatures don't even have hearts. They're much easier to manufacture, the parts of their bodies. *You say there is no heart just like you say no soul. That is your version. I say that when he is doing everything like a human being, he has got everything. It is your insufficient knowledge that you say that . . . just like you say there is no soul. But that is your insufficient knowledge. That's not the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna ( BG 18.61). When Īśvara is in everyone's heart, how you can . . . hṛd-deśe. How you say there is no heart? That is nonsense, another nonsense. So this is speaking of the material heart. Material, spiritual, you do not know anything. You don't talk. Better you become silent. (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. *(laughs) Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe , specifically said: "Within the heart." The . . . even a germlike, what is called, atom, less than atom, there is heart. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says hṛd-deśe ? *Sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe . Every living entity. Eh? And you say there is no . . . you are our student. You are saying there is no heart. That means you do not carefully read. No, that's there, but is that the heart of the soul or the heart of the gross material body? Then . . . heart there is, as you have got heart. What you are? The same constitution. In the Kaṭha Upaniṣad it describes how they're sitting side by side. The same constitution of the body. Otherwise there is no question of heart. You've just challenged the whole field of biology also. *Then what is the . . . I say they're nonsense, rascals. They say that there is no . . . and what is their knowledge? We don't give any value to their knowledge. Kṛṣṇa says clearly, hṛd*-deśe 'rjuna. And this body is just like a yantra , machine. So as machine means . . . moving machine means it must have wheel, it must have sitting place . . . everything is there, machine. That would mean that even the plants and trees also have a heart. Everything. That is proved scientifically. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved. There is a part. What is that? Spi . . .? Begins the word, the machine, the record? Spirograph. Yes, the word begins with s. Spirograph or like that. You do not know? They smear with black, what is called, carbon, and the fine . . . Cardiograph. Cardiograph, like that. Cardiograph. Yes. Sensation. No, no, the machine is called some special name. The same idea as cardiograph. Spectograph? Spectograph, yes. Has to do with light? Whatever it may be, it records how it is moving, how it is going up and down. So that has been proved. The machine is hanged in the tree, and the tree is cut, and immediately makes a mark. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has discovered the machine. Generally at least, though, we associate the heart with an organ that simply pumps blood and oxygen throughout the body, but the biologists contend that certain bodies and certain species of life, they have no such circulatory system of pumping blood or even oxygen. Why not? Well, that's the contention at present. Hmm. But we can take that . . . Like a worm. If you cut a worm in half, both parts of the worm will go on living. Hmm? You take one worm, you cut it, and both parts will go on living. You cut it in three places, and it will all live. Yes. So what is the wrong there? Then there's three hearts? Yes. Immediately manufactured as soon as the living entity enters. Their chemical composition is that, that even you cut, a living entity can enter. The living entity enters through the semina of the father in the womb of the mother, the same process. Unless the living entity enters, the body does not form. It is matter only. When the living entity enters, then the formation takes place according to his mind. What do they know about it? Hmm? Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). The matter simply is set up according to the desire. Just like we have constructed this big house according to my desire. The matter has not taken shape like this big house automatically. I am the proprietor. I desire, 'Let the rooms be like this'. Similarly, the material elements, the semina of the father and the ova of the mother mix, it creates a suitable, what is called, cement, and now according to the desire of the living being he'll settle. Not that the cement automatically becomes a room or pipe or this or that. Cement is cement, the same thing—earth, water, air, fire. By mixture it becomes so convenient that it takes a shape and becomes a different body—a different body for the man, a different body for the animal . . . (guest enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you. A little crooked. (laughter) Thank you. Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Mike Barron. He is from one of the television stations here, and he wants to do an interview on you for the news tonight, which is seen by many, many thousands of people here in Melbourne. You have seen this news? Yes, I've seen this morning's. Fairly similar, just to talk about the movement. Are you happy with the way it's going here? Yes. Just along those lines. What do you think of that article? A bit facetious. A bit facetious. I didn't like it very much. You liked? No. Why? Er, a bit facetious. They had a funny way of doing it. Funny way, but it is very serious. It requires little intelligence . . . Like to sit there? . . . that this body is a lump of matter, and the consciousness, or the living pulse, that is different. Can you prove that they are not? Eh? No. Then how do you say it is joking? Er, no, I . . . the actual context. The context is that if you cannot separate the living force, or the soul, from the body, then you are on the same position as the dog is thinking, "I am the body. I am a big dog. I can bark very loudly." And he's showing his capacity. And if we are talking big, big assembly, and in the same conception of life, that "I am this body," then where is difference? I cannot argue against that. That is the point. That is the point. We have to understand this point. If we want to become more than the dog, you must find out in which sense we are more than the dog. That sense is understanding . . . that is . . . in Sanskrit word it is said, ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman. I am not this matter." That is knowledge. Actually knowledge begins from that point, that, "I am not this body." Just like a big 747 plane is running on, but there is the intelligent pilot. If somebody says: "There is no pilot. It is flying automatically. The machine is supported," is it a correct? No. Does Kṛṣṇa consciousness make you aware of this, though? Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one understands that this big machine is useless without the pilot. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. How long . . . it's hard to say. How long does it take, though . . . It takes immediately, provided a man is intelligent. Just like the same principle: If a man is intelligent, he can immediately understand that the machine is not important, the pilot is important. The same with the body. Yes. If you take this body as everything, then analyze part by part. Just I was talking about breathing. People generally say: "The breathing is stopped; therefore the man is dead." And that can be replaced, breathing. Breathing? What is this breathing? It is simply air. Just like in tire tube, when the air is lost, you can immediately replace it and take it into work. Similarly, if breathing is lost, therefore the man is . . . you can replace it. You are big, big scientist. You replace it. Just find out some machine which will "hans! phans!" just like bellows. That is not possible. Can you become aware of this without Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Can you, without . . . No. That awareness means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We can describe it in different language, but the real thing is that we must be aware of this thing. So your teachings go much further than just being part of the Kṛṣṇa movement. Everyone, whether they like it or not, are indirectly concerned with it. The . . . our movement is an educative movement to understand the real position of living condition, and then we act. Just like if you know your real position, and if you act intelligently, then it is nice. If you do not know what is your position, what is the use of your education and acting? You do not know your real position, that is ignorance. And that is dog mentality. The dog cannot understand that he is not body, he is something else. But human intelligence is advanced. If they do not try to understand this fact, then what is the difference between him and dog? None. That is being misused. There is no institution, no university, no education system to understand what is that living force without which it is a lump of matter. Where is that education? What do you call that force? Hmm? What do you call the force? That is the soul, or consciousness. The same thing: the pilot. The pilot may be a small man, and the airship may be very gigantic. You can make still more. But the pilot is the same. So the body may be elephant or a small ant, but the pilot is the same. That is real understanding. Just getting off that, can I ask why you've come to Australia again? Is it . . . I have already explained, that this is my mission, to educate people to understand himself. They are under this misconception that, "Every one of us, we are this body." That is misconception. You must know who is within the body. That is real education. And how long will . . . you'll continue this until . . . Well . . . . . . until you die. *The knowledge is already there in the Vedic literature, but there was no discussion, at least in the Western countries. So I am trying to . . . we have got so many books, eighty*-four books, writing on this science. (aside) Show him our books. They are being accepted by high learned circles. (break) . . . written not jokingly. It is a great science. Where do you . . . you might think this unusual. Where does it come from, though? The *Vedas* , Vedic literature. What goes into this? *Vedas . Vedic literature: Sāma, Yajur, Ṛg, Atharva, Upaniṣad , then Bhāgavata , Bhagavad*-gītā , so many. There is no cultivation of this knowledge. If we could . . . if we put the stool up here, and then you can sit on facing that way, Mike? Hmm. I'll do it. How people are advanced? They should take very seriously. So he can sit and face that way. Maybe you can take one picture of our books when you go. Yes, well, due to problems that do occur from time to time, we . . . you know, what people consider to be the false guru . Is that all right with you? Yes, any . . . guru means the teacher. So if the teacher does not give you real knowledge, then he is not teacher, he is cheater. And there are some around. *Almost everyone, because they do not know what is the subject matter of teaching. The subject matter of teaching is beginning with this understanding, that life is different from matter. That is the beginning, A*-B-C-D. So if your basic knowledge is wrong, then what is the use of going further? It is all false knowledge. So there are a lot of these people who do that, false knowledge? That is . . . that you have to consider, that it is a fact. And the yoga system is meant . . . this is the real yoga system, that because we are on the false understanding, identifying with the body, so the bodily function should be controlled, and concentration or focus should be placed, "What is that living condition?" That is yoga , or meditation, to find out what is the real . . . analyze this body and find out where is the living pulse. And that is real yoga system: to control the senses. The senses are working. Now we are getting knowledge through the senses. How to get this knowledge of the living force? That, a mechanical arrangement, that is called yoga system. Cameraman: Somebody move up. *Yes. (aside to cameraman) Do you have a two*-shot, or do you want to get that afterwards? Cameraman: Yeah, I'll get to that. You're going to have to keep out my front as much as you can. Don't . . . (talks about filming) Okay, Mike. Go three from now. Can you tell us a little bit about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what it does mean? Just like the living force within the body, that is the most important thing, similarly, throughout this creation, cosmic manifestation, Kṛṣṇa is the most important thing. Are you happy with the way the Kṛṣṇa movement is progressing throughout the world, and particularly throughout Australia? Well, we are progressing very slow because the subject matter is so difficult that even big, big scientists, big, big professors, they are puzzled. So you cannot expect. But those who are fortunate and . . . they are understanding. So this progress, we cannot expect a mass people will understand immediately, but if one person understands, he can act very tremendously to educate the people on this matter. Just like the example is that to illuminate the sky it does not require millions of stars. One moon is sufficient. What is the biggest obstacle for people to overcome? Their dullness. They are not being educated, but they are putting into the darkness of ignorance more and more. That is going on in the name of education. But some people are confused by the number of false gurus . So why you bring guru ? You try to understand yourself. If you are fool, then what guru will do? But there are people . . . You should be intelligent. You should know that what is the subject matter of knowledge. Why do you accept so many fools and rascals as guru ? First of all you know what is the subject matter of knowledge. Just like if you want to become a carpenter, you should go to an expert carpenter. If you want to be a medical man, here, if you want to become medical man, you must approach the medical college. So first of all, what do you want? You do not know what you want. Therefore you get so many cheaters. You do not know what you want. You do agree that there are many people who do try and cheat? No, first of all you agree that there is someone who cheats. First of all you agree that you do not know what is the aim of your life. Do you agree or not? I think I know. Eh? I think I know. You know? What is the aim? Tell me. What is the aim of human life? Tell me. We shall accept you as guru . Tell me. What is the aim of life? To be happy in myself. That, how dog is happy? Therefore I have said, "Dog mentality." You do not know what is happiness. You know simply by barking you'll be happy. That's all. Well, how do I find out? No, what is happiness? Do you know what is happiness? Perhaps not. How do I find out that? Find out . . . but then why you are asking about guru ? You do not know what is happiness. Can you tell me? Yes. Your happiness is that you do not like to die, you die. That is your distress. You do not like to become old man; *you become old. So that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . This is unhappiness. *Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). That is intelligence that, "I do not want death. Why death comes upon me? Where is my happiness?" This knowledge will lead you to understand what is happiness. But if you remain ignorant like animal, you do not know what is happiness, and if you think, "The dog is having sex; I'll have sex. That is happiness," then where is the difference, dog mentality and your mentality? And Kṛṣṇa consciousness can help me attain this? Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He knows, "This dog's mentality of eating, sleeping, sex and defense is not my happiness. My real distress is that I do not want to die, I am being forced to die. So how to escape from this position?" That is happiness. Thank you. Jaya Prabhupāda. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . which is a topic on which they interview many personalities like yourself. And this is showing at seven o'clock tonight on television. There'll be many, many people watching it. Take that book. Take his book. No, I . . . (tape of Prabhupāda plays in background) (laughter) I'll think about that. That is the lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (background talking as people move about) (break) Sixty, seventy, and another, small books. Sixty books like this. She's asking how many do we sell. Sell? That I have given, estimate. With our standing orders we sell them all. Oh, no, I mean, how many would you sell a day? For instance, how many of each book would you sell a day? Would it be thousands a day? Yeah, maybe. Yeah, sometimes tens of thousands. Twenty thousand dollar daily. Minimum. Minimum. Sometimes we go to fifty thousand dollars. A day? Day. All over the world. Devotees are working very hard to spread this consciousness, knowledge. (background talking) Religious book, selling daily so much, huge amount, that is unique in the history. Are they sold mainly in the Western countries? All over the world, especially in Europe, America. In Europe. We even had some book orders just recently from Russia. Yes. They are also inquiring. Every university in America takes complete book. Every book Śrīla Prabhupāda writes, there is standing order—Oxford, Princeton, Harvard, UCLA, University of California . . . All of the leading professors also have written very favorable reviews, citing these . . . Where is that book, Professor Judah's book? Hare Krishna and Counterculture . (background talking) Oh, yes. You have read that? No, I haven't. Oh, he has written big book, Professor Judah. He has very much appreciated. And he has given statistics and everything, very scholarly book. Hare Krishna and Counterculture . Ah, yes. Yes, I have read it. (background conversation among cameramen; machine makes whirring sound) It is breathing? (laughter) (more background conversation, machines whirring, etc.) Your Divine Grace, what prompted you to start the Kṛṣṇa movement? Well, the scientists make research. One does wrong thing to do that. So our process is to carry out the order of the higher authorities. So my Guru Mahārāja, my spiritual master, asked me to do this. Therefore . . . But you led a rather normal life—before this you were married; you were a businessman. Yes. What made you change suddenly? By this association. Just like we are holding meeting, and so many boys, girls, they come. If somebody is capturing the idea, he makes further progress. What was it that was different about your way of thinking? It is not my way of thinking. It is nobody's way of thinking; it is the natural way of life. Just like you eat. It is not a way of thinking; it is natural demand of the body. Well, why is it, can I ask, perhaps, that the Kṛṣṇa movement is the natural way of living against, say, other religions, other faiths? It is not the question of religion or faith. It is the necessity. This already I have said, that you are hungry, and you require some food. It is not a way of thinking that, "I am hungry. I require . . ." It is the urge. You are hungry, and you require to eat. Similarly, people are making so many arrangements to become happy. So this is also another way, but this is the right way. You have now thousands and thousands of devotees all around the world. Yes. A lot of them are very young people coming into the movement. Do you think they really understand what they're going into when they join the Kṛṣṇa movement? So if, if . . . at least they understand something about it. Otherwise how they are sticking to this movement? They are intelligent boy. They are coming from respectable family, educated. Why they should go after me unless they have got something? That you can ask them. There are so many. All of them are young men. They're forced to lead a very spartan way of life, though, aren't they? Why is this necessary? If you want real happiness . . . that I have already explained. Real happiness—to become free from the natural material laws, birth, death, old age and disease. This is real happiness. Suppose you are arranging for your happiness, and all of a sudden death comes. Then where is happiness? So how you can check? So the real impediment of our happiness is stated: birth, death, old age and disease. So if you want real happiness, then you have to first of all make arrangement that you'll not die or you'll not take birth, you'll not become old, you'll not be diseased. Just like insurance. They make insurance of life. So where is your insurance for these things? You do not want to die, but you are forced to die. Where is insurance? This is insurance, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It's an insurance for what? An after . . . No more . . . no more death, no more birth, no more old age, no more disease. This is insurance. And therefore it is the primary necessity for becoming happy. Otherwise you have made arrangement very nicely, and if all of a sudden you die, then where is your happiness? Do you think the type of life that your devotees must lead . . . Yes. . . . is in fact a happy one—getting up very early in the morning . . . Yes, it is. It is. Just like if you are suffering from some ailments, so you have to follow some rules and regulation so that you may be cured. Do the doctor not prescribe so many things that, "You don't eat like this. You don't do this. You do this"? There are so many don'ts and do's. So if you really want to become happy, you have to follow some don't's and do's. Your Divine Grace, can I ask you how old you are now? Yes. How old? I am eighty years old. *And do you think the Kṛṣṇa movement has helped you? Are you a fit man for an eighty*-year-old? At least all my contemporaries have gone away. (laughter) All my young friends and childhood friends, there are no more existing, my relatives. And . . . so I am moving still all over the world. Can you see an age that you could live until? Could you predict how long you might live? No, if . . . you see, this body is so made that it must end, but before ending, you must be competently Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then, next life, you become permanent in life, in knowledge, in blissfulness. That is required. Many people find it very difficult to reconcile the spiritual way of life in the Kṛṣṇa movement with the great financial resources the movement also has. Why do you need any great financial . . .? It doesn't . . . the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement does not depend on any material condition, any material condition. But you make a lot of money out of the sales of your books, etcetera. There is begging in the streets each day. Yes. But there are many beggars; they do not get money. We get money. We are not beggars—we are giving books, knowledge. Do you think we are beggars? If I could use the example, perhaps, of your temple, which has a lot of very rich material things in it. I wonder what significance that plays in your spiritual life. So what do you mean by spiritual and material? Do you know the distinction? Then I'll show you spiritual. And do you know? Well, the material . . . I say that in the temple there is nothing material, all spiritual. But you have no eyes to see to it with. I wonder if you could lead an equal sort of life without the richness of the temple. Yes, you can do. You can live at your home like us. We are giving the example. You can live also like that. That is spiritual life. If you follow the same rules and regulation and live like that, that is spiritual life. You told me earlier that you make thousands of dollars a day . . . Yes. . . . out of the sales of your books. Yes. If you want your thoughts to be passed on to other people, why do you sell the books and make money out of them? Otherwise you'll not read it. If I give you free, then you'll think, "Ah, this is something nonsense. They are giving free." Not necessarily give them free, but perhaps sell them for a price that pays for the cost of producing them. So when they pay for it . . . when they pay for it, they will try to see, "What these books are saying? Let me see." And if you get free, then you may keep it in your rack for hundreds of years. So that is not the . . . but after all, we have to print these books, so who will pay for that? We have no money. Well, what happens to the rest of the money, though, that is collected in the streets? We are increasing our movement. We are opening centers. We are printing more books. This is my books. I have made a Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. That is my will, and I have given my will that fifty percent of the collection should be spent for reprinting the books and fifty percent should be spent for spreading the movement. So there is no question of material profit. I wonder if I could ask you just finally, then, if you have a message for the Australian people. Yes, this is the message: That people are under the impression that one is this body, but that is not the fact. The soul, or the man, he is within the body. Just like you are not your . . . this shirt and coat. You are within the shirt and coat. Similarly, the living entity, the living being, is within this body, the gross body and the subtle body. The subtle body is composed of mind, intelligence and ego, and the gross body is a composition of these material things—earth, water, air, fire, like that, five elements. Altogether, eight elements. This is inferior energy. And the superior energy is within these eight elements—five gross and three subtle. So we have to study about that thing. Just like I asked that boy that "You can manufacture a huge machine, flying in the sky, 747, but why don't you manufacture the pilot?" Thank you. (background conversation about filming, recording) So that is intelligence, that if in spite of your manufacturing such a huge machine, without the help of a pilot you cannot fly it. Yes, I know. So why don't you manufacture pilot? Probably someday they may. That is your nonsense. That is nonsense. At the moment we're just taking some photographs. *No, at the . . . you talk at the moment, sir. You don't give me post*-dated check that, "In future I shall be millionaire. Now you take a check of million or . . ." Shall I accept it? No, at the moment we're just taking some photographs. We can't let you talk at the moment. You're supposedly listening to my questions. So . . . All right. . . . for the moment I'll pretend to be asking you some questions for the purposes of cutting the interview. No, you note down that we are asking that you are so expert in manufacturing big, big machine. Why not manufacture a pilot? That is my question. And as I said, they probably will some day. That "probably" again. (laughs) That is not possible. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. You do not know. That is I say. Therefore I say you cannot do it. You do not know it. But then why should you know it more than I should? You cannot manufacture even a small germ, what to speak of pilot. That is the problem. The modern education is they do not know it. Perhaps they could build something . . . "Perhaps," "maybe," this is not scientific proposal. Perhaps they can keep you young. That's just what I was going to say. Perhaps they can build something without giving him . . . Who is . . . who is . . . . . . giving him a mind, a free mind. So suppose if you say: "Perhaps I'll be able to keep my young age continually," is it possible? I don't know. Then? You don't know. Then learn it. It is not possible. You must become an old lady. (laughter) How do you know? Yes, I know. You know also. You are denying only. You know that you shall become . . . No, but I don't know anything. I'm prepared not to know anything. I'm prepared to wait and see . . . Then you can know from the experience that every . . . your grandmother was young lady some years ago. Now she's old man . . . old woman. Yes. How do you know? But, you know, you could use that argument and say: "Yes, but I also know that they weren't able to cure a single disease." Now, if you say that, "My grandmother has become old lady. I'll not become," that is lunacy. No, no, no. I'm not suggesting that I'm not going to become old. I'm simply saying that I don't know . . . So therefore, therefore you cannot stop the nature's process. You are dependent. You should first of all understand that you are dependent on nature's process. That is intelligence. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi . . . (BG 3.27). If you extravagantly say that "I shall stop this nature's process," that is lunacy, craziness. It is not possible. You have to accept that you are under the stringent laws of nature. Oh, I couldn't . . . I agree with everything that you're saying about the laws of nature. Yes. So, but therefore how you can make a plan of happiness? Nature is baffling your plan. That you have to understand, "Why nature is baffling me?" That is real knowledge. So your answer . . . Yes. . . . is to work with nature. We can do that. We can do that, that . . . You cannot combat with the nature's law, but Kṛṣṇa says that if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can do that. You can stop nature's law acting upon you. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why . . . why would you want to stop nature's law acting in its natural way? Because I don't want to be old man, but I am being forced. Therefore I want to stop this force of the nature. That is my natural inclination. But isn't it also your natural . . . isn't it natural to . . . (indistinct) . . . with nature than to try and fight it? It is struggle. Struggle means . . . struggle for existence means there is something against my will, and I want to stop it. This is called struggle for existence. And that is . . . the whole world is going on, that . . . they have started that United Nation. Why United Nation? You remain . . . but they are trying to stop war. "Let us struggle unitedly." So that is going on. You don't want war, but the war is inevitable. Even the United Nation is there, still war is going on. That is struggle. So . . . but they are not coming to the point of understanding that, "We are trying so much, so hard, to become happy, but the nature is not allowing me." This is real intelligence. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . If we remain dull—"Let the nature's law act upon me as it likes"—and we go on struggling to stop it, it will never stop, because nature's law is so powerful. You cannot stop it. But why do you want to fight nature's law? Then you want happiness. Again I am repeatedly saying that you don't want to stop your old age. You want to remain young. No, no, no . . . Everyone . . . I'm saying I think I can be happy by working within nature's laws rather than trying to fight them. That you are not working. That is . . . that is your . . . that is . . . But I'm not unhappy. That's all . . . You are not happy. No, I'm not unhappy. I'm perfectly happy. No, that is your ignorance. Nobody is happy. That is . . . then it is the happiness of the dog. He is also thinking happy. The hog is also thinking happy. That is another illusion. The dog may be a very big dog, and he can bark very nicely, but he is not happy because he has got a master. As soon as the master, "Come here," "Yes." Chain. But all of these people have a master. You do the same to them. You call them and they jump. No. That's the same as a dog coming to its master. Yes. But to have a real master and to have a false master . . . What's the difference? Just like a physician. He is asking that, "Come here. Lie down." His knife . . . you know that he'll make surgical . . . he agrees. But if somebody, rogue, says that, "I shall cut your throat," he'll not agree. That is intelligence. A physician is also with the knife, and the rogue is also with the knife. When the physician says: "You lie down. I shall have some surgical operation," he agrees to ply on his body the knife. But he'll never agree if he knows that, "He is a rogue. He'll simply cut my throat." That is the difference. But superficially you see, "Both of them are with knife," but one for real happiness, one for false thing. I find it hard to see the difference. Yes, you find out how to go to a physician, agree to his proposal. Then you'll be cured. Otherwise you'll have to suffer with that boil, always burning, burning, burning, burning. Thank you for your time. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them some prasāda . (break) . . . yogī . There are many animals. They are also doing . . . (background conversation as people leave) And Garuḍa also, vegetarian. Garuḍa. *Garuḍa. But he carries the Lord Viṣṇu. That is not the point. How to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, that is really . . . to become vegetarian, nonvegetarian, that is not very important. But we are interested in Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . We are not in the group of vegetarians or nonvegetarians. We are Kṛṣṇa*-ized. We take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . That is our . . . we are servant of Kṛṣṇa, so whatever is left over by Kṛṣṇa, we take. If Kṛṣṇa eats meat, we shall take Kṛṣṇa prasādam . What can we do? Therefore we offer Kṛṣṇa whatever He wants to eat, and we take the remnants. That is our . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26), so we offer Him. If Kṛṣṇa says: "Māṁsa, eggs, give Me," then we shall offer Him and take. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you very much. Bye bye. (guests leave) They all take that this is some kind of a materialistic business, selling books and collecting money, and we purchase a beautiful temple . . . Therefore I said that we are not material; it is all spiritual. That they do not know. Where is material? If everything is prepared and everything there is Kṛṣṇa, then where is material? When it is misused, other than Kṛṣṇa, then it is material. Now, just like the university department and the criminal department. Where is the difference superficially? That's a building, that's a building. There are officer; there are officer. There are rooms; there are rooms. Why it is called criminal, prison house? The activities inside. *Yes, it is the activity which concerns. In the university there is only activity of education, learning. And here, all the criminals are violating the laws, they are put together. But superficially they look the same room, same food, same office, same typewriter. So it is the question of understanding why it is called criminal department and why it is called university. So as soon as it is university department, that is good. The same building, the same Dictaphone, the same typewriter, same table, same chair, when they are used for Kṛṣṇa it is spiritual. The same money, everything, it looks like that. Therefore they cannot understand. The nirviśeṣavādī and the śūnyavādī , they, "Spiritual means these things should be zero." They say it should be zero. "No table, no chair, no house, no, no, no, no . . ." But that is (laughs) ignorance. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256). The things which are usable by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if we give up them, prapañcikā , as material, that is foolishness. That they do not know. They have yet to learn. It is Rūpa Gosvāmī's injunction. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ, mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgaḥ. Parityāga means giving up: "Oh, it is material." So we are not such fools, śūnyavādī and nirviśeṣavādī . We are not such fools. *Arjuna, he thought that not killing is better than killing, but Kṛṣṇa convinced him, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Therefore he, after reading Bhagavad*-gītā , he took it, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Generally people understand not killing is better than killing. But Kṛṣṇa explained to Arjuna, "No, if there is My desire, then killing is better than not killing." And that is knowledge. Therefore we have to carry out simply Kṛṣṇa's order or His representative's order. Then it is all good. Either killing or not killing, it doesn't matter because it is coming directly from the Supreme. And that is spiritual. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa induced Arjuna to kill? He was presenting as very good man, that "I shall not kill." And that's . . . actually that is good. Even if your enemy excuse him, that is very good idea. But if it is not desired by Kṛṣṇa, then it is bad. So our principle is: We have to act according to the desire of Kṛṣṇa; then it is good. Otherwise, bad. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So in spite of advancement of knowledge, because they are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore they are all duṣkṛtinaḥ , all sinful men. That is the test. So it is very difficult to understand this philosophy, but this is the fact. We are not going to be followers of zero- vādīs or impersonal- vādīs . We remain completely in the varieties, but these varieties are usable only for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. You cannot stop the varieties. You have to change the quality of the varieties. Just like we are eating. It is not possible to stop eating. Why shall I stop eating? But the quality is changed. It is prasādam . Just like we're getting some money for our books . . . The quality's changed. . . . they take that spiritual life is negation of anything that they're doing now—no more money, no more anything. For our personal comfort, we, our students are lying on the floor. They are not using the money for purchasing nice furniture. No personal comfort. But if you say that, "You are purchasing big, big car," yes, for going quickly to serve Kṛṣṇa. Our service is main point. If I can go and serve Kṛṣṇa within a minute, why shall I wait for one hour? So we take all advantages. After all, it belongs to Kṛṣṇa. They say that "We have manufactured." That's all . . . but we say that Kṛṣṇa has manufactured. So they . . . this philosophy, it is little difficult to understand by the dull men, that nothing is without Kṛṣṇa. Everything . . . īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Sarvam , when we say sarvam , how we can exclude this and that? Everything is in relationship with Kṛṣṇa, sarvam. Sarvam means everything. So how can you discriminate, "This is material; this is spiritual"? The discrimination is that when it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is material, and when it is used for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. That is the explanation of sarvam . Just like a thief has stolen my money. The money will be utilized. He'll spend it. I am spending, and he is . . . then why he's criminal? If you plea . . . if you present this plea, that "Money's for spending, so either you spend or I spend . . ." But that is not the idea, that the money . . . my money means the money should be spent for my purpose, and because you have taken the money and spending for your purpose, therefore you are criminal. That is the distinction between material and spiritual. Money, or everything, belongs to Kṛṣṇa. When it is utilized for Kṛṣṇa, this is spiritual, and when it is not utilized for Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? You cannot say that, "Yes, I have taken your money, so you are also spending, I am also spending. So why do you call me a criminal?" The answer will be: "Yes, you are not spending for me; you are spending for you. Therefore you are criminal." Is it very difficult to understand? That last argument again? You're taking money . . .? The money belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Yes. So if you spend it for Kṛṣṇa, then it is spiritual. Yes. *And if you spend for your benefit, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8), bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasām (BG 5.29). Repeatedly says. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor. So when everything is used for the fulfillment of the will of the proprietor, that is proper use. Otherwise improper use. Just like we have given several times this example, "Keep to the right," "Keep to the left." So you are driving your car. The will is, government will is, "Keep to the right." As soon as you keep to the left, immediately you are criminal. You cannot put this argument, "What is the wrong? I am driving." "No, because you have violated my will, therefore you are . . ." the government will see. That is criminal. So everything . . . bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasā . . . He is the proprietor. He is the enjoyer. So because you have enjoyed without His permission, therefore you become criminal. You are punishable. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpam (BG 3.13). You'll see this verse. *Bhagavad*-gītā . *Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). It's gone, Śrīla Prabhupāda. What can I do? "In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajña , supply all necessities to man. But he who enjoys these gifts without offering them to the demigods in return is certainly a thief." Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- April 20, 1976, Melbourne (Conversation & TV Interview with Mike Barron) But still, he did it. Arjuna, in the beginning, thought that he should not kill. Come on. He's ready downstairs. Huh? (break) . . . can you think about the living pulse which is beating, the heart, heart failure? Why don't you bring it into palpitation again? If you study that air . . . air . . . air you bring artificially. Push it. Why don't you do it if you are so great scientist? Is it very difficult? So in anything, air is fi . . . just like in the tire tube. Air is finished. Push it, air, it is all right. So do you think it is air, the palpitation? You are so foolish? And passing as a scientist? Air can be replaced. It is difficult? Just like tire tube air, a huge quantity to work. You immediately, within a second . . . so why do you say: "Now, now the breathing is stopped"? Breathing is stopped, air stopped. What is their answer? Hmm? They have no answer. The cells have died. Huh? The cells have died. Seller? Tiny cells in the body have died. Then don't say that, "Breathing is stopped. Therefore he is dead." Don't talk nonsense. Why do you talk like that, "Now breathing is stopped. He's dead"? Talk in right language if you are scientist. Why you are talking like that, "The air is stopped. The breathing is stopped. Therefore dead"? That's not a fact. So you are stating which is not a fact. Why you claim that you are scientist? That is the challenge. Hmm? Then again you come to the blood. What is blood? Red water. So if you say that this, that, so many jugglery of words, so manufacture. Water mix with the red color and give these, these so many rascal things. They don't have artificial blood. I don't think they can make artificial blood. Nothing. Artificial blood . . . superficially it is red water. So if red water is the life, then why you are spoiling so much blood? Keep it scientifically and push it into the dead body. I say it is, that way, it is the red water, nothing but red water. Urine is white water. I am coming to the five elements—air, water. Then what is this bone? Earth. You can manufacture bone, hard bone, with earth or wood or something plastic. So we are analyzing the combination of the body, so everything you can manufacture. But where is the life you can manufacture? Why do you say? That is our challenge. All the ingredients of the body you can manufacture exactly like that. Ultimately you can give the beauty also of the woman or the man. But where is life? Bring life by all these things. Then I will say that you are scientist. Otherwise cheater, simply bluffing people. This thing should be stopped. Where you get the information that this, from matter life is possible. "In future." But in future . . . in inceptive condition you show something. Just like formerly they were flying balloons. So because they were flying, they could say that "Future we shall fly a big city." And in the history we can see that that is not impossible, because in the inceptive condition or initiative condition we see that big things can be flown. But here you cannot even prepare a ant. You have not been able to prepare even a small ant, germ. Show me. So why do you say: "In future I shall do it"? Some of these creature don't even have hearts. Eh? Some of the insects don't even have hearts. And how do you say? They have everything. You have no intelligence to understand. Everything, all anatomic physiology is there, even the small full stop, you cannot see even, microbe. That is God's creation. You mean to say . . . I have seen very minute, walking very . . . exactly like a big . . . In Vṛndāvana, when we were staying at Bon's place, there was big colony of ants. Ants, thousands of them. Yes, they have got all the sense, all the sympathy. For eating, sleeping, mating, they have got all intelligence. What I mean to say is, physiologically speaking, at least from biological viewpoint, some of these creatures don't even have hearts. They're much easier to manufacture, the parts of their bodies. *You say there is no heart just like you say no soul. That is your version. I say that when he is doing everything like a human being, he has got everything. It is your insufficient knowledge that you say that . . . just like you say there is no soul. But that is your insufficient knowledge. That's not the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna ( BG 18.61). When Īśvara is in everyone's heart, how you can . . . hṛd-deśe. How you say there is no heart? That is nonsense, another nonsense. So this is speaking of the material heart. Material, spiritual, you do not know anything. You don't talk. Better you become silent. (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. *(laughs) Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe , specifically said: "Within the heart." The . . . even a germlike, what is called, atom, less than atom, there is heart. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says hṛd-deśe ? *Sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe . Every living entity. Eh? And you say there is no . . . you are our student. You are saying there is no heart. That means you do not carefully read. No, that's there, but is that the heart of the soul or the heart of the gross material body? Then . . . heart there is, as you have got heart. What you are? The same constitution. In the Kaṭha Upaniṣad it describes how they're sitting side by side. The same constitution of the body. Otherwise there is no question of heart. You've just challenged the whole field of biology also. *Then what is the . . . I say they're nonsense, rascals. They say that there is no . . . and what is their knowledge? We don't give any value to their knowledge. Kṛṣṇa says clearly, hṛd*-deśe 'rjuna. And this body is just like a yantra , machine. So as machine means . . . moving machine means it must have wheel, it must have sitting place . . . everything is there, machine. That would mean that even the plants and trees also have a heart. Everything. That is proved scientifically. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved. There is a part. What is that? Spi . . .? Begins the word, the machine, the record? Spirograph. Yes, the word begins with s. Spirograph or like that. You do not know? They smear with black, what is called, carbon, and the fine . . . Cardiograph. Cardiograph, like that. Cardiograph. Yes. Sensation. No, no, the machine is called some special name. The same idea as cardiograph. Spectograph? Spectograph, yes. Has to do with light? Whatever it may be, it records how it is moving, how it is going up and down. So that has been proved. The machine is hanged in the tree, and the tree is cut, and immediately makes a mark. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has discovered the machine. Generally at least, though, we associate the heart with an organ that simply pumps blood and oxygen throughout the body, but the biologists contend that certain bodies and certain species of life, they have no such circulatory system of pumping blood or even oxygen. Why not? Well, that's the contention at present. Hmm. But we can take that . . . Like a worm. If you cut a worm in half, both parts of the worm will go on living. Hmm? You take one worm, you cut it, and both parts will go on living. You cut it in three places, and it will all live. Yes. So what is the wrong there? Then there's three hearts? Yes. Immediately manufactured as soon as the living entity enters. Their chemical composition is that, that even you cut, a living entity can enter. The living entity enters through the semina of the father in the womb of the mother, the same process. Unless the living entity enters, the body does not form. It is matter only. When the living entity enters, then the formation takes place according to his mind. What do they know about it? Hmm? Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). The matter simply is set up according to the desire. Just like we have constructed this big house according to my desire. The matter has not taken shape like this big house automatically. I am the proprietor. I desire, 'Let the rooms be like this'. Similarly, the material elements, the semina of the father and the ova of the mother mix, it creates a suitable, what is called, cement, and now according to the desire of the living being he'll settle. Not that the cement automatically becomes a room or pipe or this or that. Cement is cement, the same thing—earth, water, air, fire. By mixture it becomes so convenient that it takes a shape and becomes a different body—a different body for the man, a different body for the animal . . . (guest enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you. A little crooked. (laughter) Thank you. Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Mike Barron. He is from one of the television stations here, and he wants to do an interview on you for the news tonight, which is seen by many, many thousands of people here in Melbourne. You have seen this news? Yes, I've seen this morning's. Fairly similar, just to talk about the movement. Are you happy with the way it's going here? Yes. Just along those lines. What do you think of that article? A bit facetious. A bit facetious. I didn't like it very much. You liked? No. Why? Er, a bit facetious. They had a funny way of doing it. Funny way, but it is very serious. It requires little intelligence . . . Like to sit there? . . . that this body is a lump of matter, and the consciousness, or the living pulse, that is different. Can you prove that they are not? Eh? No. Then how do you say it is joking? Er, no, I . . . the actual context. The context is that if you cannot separate the living force, or the soul, from the body, then you are on the same position as the dog is thinking, "I am the body. I am a big dog. I can bark very loudly." And he's showing his capacity. And if we are talking big, big assembly, and in the same conception of life, that "I am this body," then where is difference? I cannot argue against that. That is the point. That is the point. We have to understand this point. If we want to become more than the dog, you must find out in which sense we are more than the dog. That sense is understanding . . . that is . . . in Sanskrit word it is said, ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman. I am not this matter." That is knowledge. Actually knowledge begins from that point, that, "I am not this body." Just like a big 747 plane is running on, but there is the intelligent pilot. If somebody says: "There is no pilot. It is flying automatically. The machine is supported," is it a correct? No. Does Kṛṣṇa consciousness make you aware of this, though? Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one understands that this big machine is useless without the pilot. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. How long . . . it's hard to say. How long does it take, though . . . It takes immediately, provided a man is intelligent. Just like the same principle: If a man is intelligent, he can immediately understand that the machine is not important, the pilot is important. The same with the body. Yes. If you take this body as everything, then analyze part by part. Just I was talking about breathing. People generally say: "The breathing is stopped; therefore the man is dead." And that can be replaced, breathing. Breathing? What is this breathing? It is simply air. Just like in tire tube, when the air is lost, you can immediately replace it and take it into work. Similarly, if breathing is lost, therefore the man is . . . you can replace it. You are big, big scientist. You replace it. Just find out some machine which will "hans! phans!" just like bellows. That is not possible. Can you become aware of this without Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Can you, without . . . No. That awareness means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We can describe it in different language, but the real thing is that we must be aware of this thing. So your teachings go much further than just being part of the Kṛṣṇa movement. Everyone, whether they like it or not, are indirectly concerned with it. The . . . our movement is an educative movement to understand the real position of living condition, and then we act. Just like if you know your real position, and if you act intelligently, then it is nice. If you do not know what is your position, what is the use of your education and acting? You do not know your real position, that is ignorance. And that is dog mentality. The dog cannot understand that he is not body, he is something else. But human intelligence is advanced. If they do not try to understand this fact, then what is the difference between him and dog? None. That is being misused. There is no institution, no university, no education system to understand what is that living force without which it is a lump of matter. Where is that education? What do you call that force? Hmm? What do you call the force? That is the soul, or consciousness. The same thing: the pilot. The pilot may be a small man, and the airship may be very gigantic. You can make still more. But the pilot is the same. So the body may be elephant or a small ant, but the pilot is the same. That is real understanding. Just getting off that, can I ask why you've come to Australia again? Is it . . . I have already explained, that this is my mission, to educate people to understand himself. They are under this misconception that, "Every one of us, we are this body." That is misconception. You must know who is within the body. That is real education. And how long will . . . you'll continue this until . . . Well . . . . . . until you die. *The knowledge is already there in the Vedic literature, but there was no discussion, at least in the Western countries. So I am trying to . . . we have got so many books, eighty*-four books, writing on this science. (aside) Show him our books. They are being accepted by high learned circles. (break) . . . written not jokingly. It is a great science. Where do you . . . you might think this unusual. Where does it come from, though? The *Vedas* , Vedic literature. What goes into this? *Vedas . Vedic literature: Sāma, Yajur, Ṛg, Atharva, Upaniṣad , then Bhāgavata , Bhagavad*-gītā , so many. There is no cultivation of this knowledge. If we could . . . if we put the stool up here, and then you can sit on facing that way, Mike? Hmm. I'll do it. How people are advanced? They should take very seriously. So he can sit and face that way. Maybe you can take one picture of our books when you go. Yes, well, due to problems that do occur from time to time, we . . . you know, what people consider to be the false guru . Is that all right with you? Yes, any . . . guru means the teacher. So if the teacher does not give you real knowledge, then he is not teacher, he is cheater. And there are some around. *Almost everyone, because they do not know what is the subject matter of teaching. The subject matter of teaching is beginning with this understanding, that life is different from matter. That is the beginning, A*-B-C-D. So if your basic knowledge is wrong, then what is the use of going further? It is all false knowledge. So there are a lot of these people who do that, false knowledge? That is . . . that you have to consider, that it is a fact. And the yoga system is meant . . . this is the real yoga system, that because we are on the false understanding, identifying with the body, so the bodily function should be controlled, and concentration or focus should be placed, "What is that living condition?" That is yoga , or meditation, to find out what is the real . . . analyze this body and find out where is the living pulse. And that is real yoga system: to control the senses. The senses are working. Now we are getting knowledge through the senses. How to get this knowledge of the living force? That, a mechanical arrangement, that is called yoga system. Cameraman: Somebody move up. *Yes. (aside to cameraman) Do you have a two*-shot, or do you want to get that afterwards? Cameraman: Yeah, I'll get to that. You're going to have to keep out my front as much as you can. Don't . . . (talks about filming) Okay, Mike. Go three from now. Can you tell us a little bit about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what it does mean? Just like the living force within the body, that is the most important thing, similarly, throughout this creation, cosmic manifestation, Kṛṣṇa is the most important thing. Are you happy with the way the Kṛṣṇa movement is progressing throughout the world, and particularly throughout Australia? Well, we are progressing very slow because the subject matter is so difficult that even big, big scientists, big, big professors, they are puzzled. So you cannot expect. But those who are fortunate and . . . they are understanding. So this progress, we cannot expect a mass people will understand immediately, but if one person understands, he can act very tremendously to educate the people on this matter. Just like the example is that to illuminate the sky it does not require millions of stars. One moon is sufficient. What is the biggest obstacle for people to overcome? Their dullness. They are not being educated, but they are putting into the darkness of ignorance more and more. That is going on in the name of education. But some people are confused by the number of false gurus . So why you bring guru ? You try to understand yourself. If you are fool, then what guru will do? But there are people . . . You should be intelligent. You should know that what is the subject matter of knowledge. Why do you accept so many fools and rascals as guru ? First of all you know what is the subject matter of knowledge. Just like if you want to become a carpenter, you should go to an expert carpenter. If you want to be a medical man, here, if you want to become medical man, you must approach the medical college. So first of all, what do you want? You do not know what you want. Therefore you get so many cheaters. You do not know what you want. You do agree that there are many people who do try and cheat? No, first of all you agree that there is someone who cheats. First of all you agree that you do not know what is the aim of your life. Do you agree or not? I think I know. Eh? I think I know. You know? What is the aim? Tell me. What is the aim of human life? Tell me. We shall accept you as guru . Tell me. What is the aim of life? To be happy in myself. That, how dog is happy? Therefore I have said, "Dog mentality." You do not know what is happiness. You know simply by barking you'll be happy. That's all. Well, how do I find out? No, what is happiness? Do you know what is happiness? Perhaps not. How do I find out that? Find out . . . but then why you are asking about guru ? You do not know what is happiness. Can you tell me? Yes. Your happiness is that you do not like to die, you die. That is your distress. You do not like to become old man; *you become old. So that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . This is unhappiness. *Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). That is intelligence that, "I do not want death. Why death comes upon me? Where is my happiness?" This knowledge will lead you to understand what is happiness. But if you remain ignorant like animal, you do not know what is happiness, and if you think, "The dog is having sex; I'll have sex. That is happiness," then where is the difference, dog mentality and your mentality? And Kṛṣṇa consciousness can help me attain this? Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He knows, "This dog's mentality of eating, sleeping, sex and defense is not my happiness. My real distress is that I do not want to die, I am being forced to die. So how to escape from this position?" That is happiness. Thank you. Jaya Prabhupāda. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . which is a topic on which they interview many personalities like yourself. And this is showing at seven o'clock tonight on television. There'll be many, many people watching it. Take that book. Take his book. No, I . . . (tape of Prabhupāda plays in background) (laughter) I'll think about that. That is the lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (background talking as people move about) (break) Sixty, seventy, and another, small books. Sixty books like this. She's asking how many do we sell. Sell? That I have given, estimate. With our standing orders we sell them all. Oh, no, I mean, how many would you sell a day? For instance, how many of each book would you sell a day? Would it be thousands a day? Yeah, maybe. Yeah, sometimes tens of thousands. Twenty thousand dollar daily. Minimum. Minimum. Sometimes we go to fifty thousand dollars. A day? Day. All over the world. Devotees are working very hard to spread this consciousness, knowledge. (background talking) Religious book, selling daily so much, huge amount, that is unique in the history. Are they sold mainly in the Western countries? All over the world, especially in Europe, America. In Europe. We even had some book orders just recently from Russia. Yes. They are also inquiring. Every university in America takes complete book. Every book Śrīla Prabhupāda writes, there is standing order—Oxford, Princeton, Harvard, UCLA, University of California . . . All of the leading professors also have written very favorable reviews, citing these . . . Where is that book, Professor Judah's book? Hare Krishna and Counterculture . (background talking) Oh, yes. You have read that? No, I haven't. Oh, he has written big book, Professor Judah. He has very much appreciated. And he has given statistics and everything, very scholarly book. Hare Krishna and Counterculture . Ah, yes. Yes, I have read it. (background conversation among cameramen; machine makes whirring sound) It is breathing? (laughter) (more background conversation, machines whirring, etc.) Your Divine Grace, what prompted you to start the Kṛṣṇa movement? Well, the scientists make research. One does wrong thing to do that. So our process is to carry out the order of the higher authorities. So my Guru Mahārāja, my spiritual master, asked me to do this. Therefore . . . But you led a rather normal life—before this you were married; you were a businessman. Yes. What made you change suddenly? By this association. Just like we are holding meeting, and so many boys, girls, they come. If somebody is capturing the idea, he makes further progress. What was it that was different about your way of thinking? It is not my way of thinking. It is nobody's way of thinking; it is the natural way of life. Just like you eat. It is not a way of thinking; it is natural demand of the body. Well, why is it, can I ask, perhaps, that the Kṛṣṇa movement is the natural way of living against, say, other religions, other faiths? It is not the question of religion or faith. It is the necessity. This already I have said, that you are hungry, and you require some food. It is not a way of thinking that, "I am hungry. I require . . ." It is the urge. You are hungry, and you require to eat. Similarly, people are making so many arrangements to become happy. So this is also another way, but this is the right way. You have now thousands and thousands of devotees all around the world. Yes. A lot of them are very young people coming into the movement. Do you think they really understand what they're going into when they join the Kṛṣṇa movement? So if, if . . . at least they understand something about it. Otherwise how they are sticking to this movement? They are intelligent boy. They are coming from respectable family, educated. Why they should go after me unless they have got something? That you can ask them. There are so many. All of them are young men. They're forced to lead a very spartan way of life, though, aren't they? Why is this necessary? If you want real happiness . . . that I have already explained. Real happiness—to become free from the natural material laws, birth, death, old age and disease. This is real happiness. Suppose you are arranging for your happiness, and all of a sudden death comes. Then where is happiness? So how you can check? So the real impediment of our happiness is stated: birth, death, old age and disease. So if you want real happiness, then you have to first of all make arrangement that you'll not die or you'll not take birth, you'll not become old, you'll not be diseased. Just like insurance. They make insurance of life. So where is your insurance for these things? You do not want to die, but you are forced to die. Where is insurance? This is insurance, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It's an insurance for what? An after . . . No more . . . no more death, no more birth, no more old age, no more disease. This is insurance. And therefore it is the primary necessity for becoming happy. Otherwise you have made arrangement very nicely, and if all of a sudden you die, then where is your happiness? Do you think the type of life that your devotees must lead . . . Yes. . . . is in fact a happy one—getting up very early in the morning . . . Yes, it is. It is. Just like if you are suffering from some ailments, so you have to follow some rules and regulation so that you may be cured. Do the doctor not prescribe so many things that, "You don't eat like this. You don't do this. You do this"? There are so many don'ts and do's. So if you really want to become happy, you have to follow some don't's and do's. Your Divine Grace, can I ask you how old you are now? Yes. How old? I am eighty years old. *And do you think the Kṛṣṇa movement has helped you? Are you a fit man for an eighty*-year-old? At least all my contemporaries have gone away. (laughter) All my young friends and childhood friends, there are no more existing, my relatives. And . . . so I am moving still all over the world. Can you see an age that you could live until? Could you predict how long you might live? No, if . . . you see, this body is so made that it must end, but before ending, you must be competently Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then, next life, you become permanent in life, in knowledge, in blissfulness. That is required. Many people find it very difficult to reconcile the spiritual way of life in the Kṛṣṇa movement with the great financial resources the movement also has. Why do you need any great financial . . .? It doesn't . . . the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement does not depend on any material condition, any material condition. But you make a lot of money out of the sales of your books, etcetera. There is begging in the streets each day. Yes. But there are many beggars; they do not get money. We get money. We are not beggars—we are giving books, knowledge. Do you think we are beggars? If I could use the example, perhaps, of your temple, which has a lot of very rich material things in it. I wonder what significance that plays in your spiritual life. So what do you mean by spiritual and material? Do you know the distinction? Then I'll show you spiritual. And do you know? Well, the material . . . I say that in the temple there is nothing material, all spiritual. But you have no eyes to see to it with. I wonder if you could lead an equal sort of life without the richness of the temple. Yes, you can do. You can live at your home like us. We are giving the example. You can live also like that. That is spiritual life. If you follow the same rules and regulation and live like that, that is spiritual life. You told me earlier that you make thousands of dollars a day . . . Yes. . . . out of the sales of your books. Yes. If you want your thoughts to be passed on to other people, why do you sell the books and make money out of them? Otherwise you'll not read it. If I give you free, then you'll think, "Ah, this is something nonsense. They are giving free." Not necessarily give them free, but perhaps sell them for a price that pays for the cost of producing them. So when they pay for it . . . when they pay for it, they will try to see, "What these books are saying? Let me see." And if you get free, then you may keep it in your rack for hundreds of years. So that is not the . . . but after all, we have to print these books, so who will pay for that? We have no money. Well, what happens to the rest of the money, though, that is collected in the streets? We are increasing our movement. We are opening centers. We are printing more books. This is my books. I have made a Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. That is my will, and I have given my will that fifty percent of the collection should be spent for reprinting the books and fifty percent should be spent for spreading the movement. So there is no question of material profit. I wonder if I could ask you just finally, then, if you have a message for the Australian people. Yes, this is the message: That people are under the impression that one is this body, but that is not the fact. The soul, or the man, he is within the body. Just like you are not your . . . this shirt and coat. You are within the shirt and coat. Similarly, the living entity, the living being, is within this body, the gross body and the subtle body. The subtle body is composed of mind, intelligence and ego, and the gross body is a composition of these material things—earth, water, air, fire, like that, five elements. Altogether, eight elements. This is inferior energy. And the superior energy is within these eight elements—five gross and three subtle. So we have to study about that thing. Just like I asked that boy that "You can manufacture a huge machine, flying in the sky, 747, but why don't you manufacture the pilot?" Thank you. (background conversation about filming, recording) So that is intelligence, that if in spite of your manufacturing such a huge machine, without the help of a pilot you cannot fly it. Yes, I know. So why don't you manufacture pilot? Probably someday they may. That is your nonsense. That is nonsense. At the moment we're just taking some photographs. *No, at the . . . you talk at the moment, sir. You don't give me post*-dated check that, "In future I shall be millionaire. Now you take a check of million or . . ." Shall I accept it? No, at the moment we're just taking some photographs. We can't let you talk at the moment. You're supposedly listening to my questions. So . . . All right. . . . for the moment I'll pretend to be asking you some questions for the purposes of cutting the interview. No, you note down that we are asking that you are so expert in manufacturing big, big machine. Why not manufacture a pilot? That is my question. And as I said, they probably will some day. That "probably" again. (laughs) That is not possible. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. You do not know. That is I say. Therefore I say you cannot do it. You do not know it. But then why should you know it more than I should? You cannot manufacture even a small germ, what to speak of pilot. That is the problem. The modern education is they do not know it. Perhaps they could build something . . . "Perhaps," "maybe," this is not scientific proposal. Perhaps they can keep you young. That's just what I was going to say. Perhaps they can build something without giving him . . . Who is . . . who is . . . . . . giving him a mind, a free mind. So suppose if you say: "Perhaps I'll be able to keep my young age continually," is it possible? I don't know. Then? You don't know. Then learn it. It is not possible. You must become an old lady. (laughter) How do you know? Yes, I know. You know also. You are denying only. You know that you shall become . . . No, but I don't know anything. I'm prepared not to know anything. I'm prepared to wait and see . . . Then you can know from the experience that every . . . your grandmother was young lady some years ago. Now she's old man . . . old woman. Yes. How do you know? But, you know, you could use that argument and say: "Yes, but I also know that they weren't able to cure a single disease." Now, if you say that, "My grandmother has become old lady. I'll not become," that is lunacy. No, no, no. I'm not suggesting that I'm not going to become old. I'm simply saying that I don't know . . . So therefore, therefore you cannot stop the nature's process. You are dependent. You should first of all understand that you are dependent on nature's process. That is intelligence. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi . . . (BG 3.27). If you extravagantly say that "I shall stop this nature's process," that is lunacy, craziness. It is not possible. You have to accept that you are under the stringent laws of nature. Oh, I couldn't . . . I agree with everything that you're saying about the laws of nature. Yes. So, but therefore how you can make a plan of happiness? Nature is baffling your plan. That you have to understand, "Why nature is baffling me?" That is real knowledge. So your answer . . . Yes. . . . is to work with nature. We can do that. We can do that, that . . . You cannot combat with the nature's law, but Kṛṣṇa says that if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can do that. You can stop nature's law acting upon you. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why . . . why would you want to stop nature's law acting in its natural way? Because I don't want to be old man, but I am being forced. Therefore I want to stop this force of the nature. That is my natural inclination. But isn't it also your natural . . . isn't it natural to . . . (indistinct) . . . with nature than to try and fight it? It is struggle. Struggle means . . . struggle for existence means there is something against my will, and I want to stop it. This is called struggle for existence. And that is . . . the whole world is going on, that . . . they have started that United Nation. Why United Nation? You remain . . . but they are trying to stop war. "Let us struggle unitedly." So that is going on. You don't want war, but the war is inevitable. Even the United Nation is there, still war is going on. That is struggle. So . . . but they are not coming to the point of understanding that, "We are trying so much, so hard, to become happy, but the nature is not allowing me." This is real intelligence. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . If we remain dull—"Let the nature's law act upon me as it likes"—and we go on struggling to stop it, it will never stop, because nature's law is so powerful. You cannot stop it. But why do you want to fight nature's law? Then you want happiness. Again I am repeatedly saying that you don't want to stop your old age. You want to remain young. No, no, no . . . Everyone . . . I'm saying I think I can be happy by working within nature's laws rather than trying to fight them. That you are not working. That is . . . that is your . . . that is . . . But I'm not unhappy. That's all . . . You are not happy. No, I'm not unhappy. I'm perfectly happy. No, that is your ignorance. Nobody is happy. That is . . . then it is the happiness of the dog. He is also thinking happy. The hog is also thinking happy. That is another illusion. The dog may be a very big dog, and he can bark very nicely, but he is not happy because he has got a master. As soon as the master, "Come here," "Yes." Chain. But all of these people have a master. You do the same to them. You call them and they jump. No. That's the same as a dog coming to its master. Yes. But to have a real master and to have a false master . . . What's the difference? Just like a physician. He is asking that, "Come here. Lie down." His knife . . . you know that he'll make surgical . . . he agrees. But if somebody, rogue, says that, "I shall cut your throat," he'll not agree. That is intelligence. A physician is also with the knife, and the rogue is also with the knife. When the physician says: "You lie down. I shall have some surgical operation," he agrees to ply on his body the knife. But he'll never agree if he knows that, "He is a rogue. He'll simply cut my throat." That is the difference. But superficially you see, "Both of them are with knife," but one for real happiness, one for false thing. I find it hard to see the difference. Yes, you find out how to go to a physician, agree to his proposal. Then you'll be cured. Otherwise you'll have to suffer with that boil, always burning, burning, burning, burning. Thank you for your time. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them some prasāda . (break) . . . yogī . There are many animals. They are also doing . . . (background conversation as people leave) And Garuḍa also, vegetarian. Garuḍa. *Garuḍa. But he carries the Lord Viṣṇu. That is not the point. How to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, that is really . . . to become vegetarian, nonvegetarian, that is not very important. But we are interested in Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . We are not in the group of vegetarians or nonvegetarians. We are Kṛṣṇa*-ized. We take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . That is our . . . we are servant of Kṛṣṇa, so whatever is left over by Kṛṣṇa, we take. If Kṛṣṇa eats meat, we shall take Kṛṣṇa prasādam . What can we do? Therefore we offer Kṛṣṇa whatever He wants to eat, and we take the remnants. That is our . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26), so we offer Him. If Kṛṣṇa says: "Māṁsa, eggs, give Me," then we shall offer Him and take. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you very much. Bye bye. (guests leave) They all take that this is some kind of a materialistic business, selling books and collecting money, and we purchase a beautiful temple . . . Therefore I said that we are not material; it is all spiritual. That they do not know. Where is material? If everything is prepared and everything there is Kṛṣṇa, then where is material? When it is misused, other than Kṛṣṇa, then it is material. Now, just like the university department and the criminal department. Where is the difference superficially? That's a building, that's a building. There are officer; there are officer. There are rooms; there are rooms. Why it is called criminal, prison house? The activities inside. *Yes, it is the activity which concerns. In the university there is only activity of education, learning. And here, all the criminals are violating the laws, they are put together. But superficially they look the same room, same food, same office, same typewriter. So it is the question of understanding why it is called criminal department and why it is called university. So as soon as it is university department, that is good. The same building, the same Dictaphone, the same typewriter, same table, same chair, when they are used for Kṛṣṇa it is spiritual. The same money, everything, it looks like that. Therefore they cannot understand. The nirviśeṣavādī and the śūnyavādī , they, "Spiritual means these things should be zero." They say it should be zero. "No table, no chair, no house, no, no, no, no . . ." But that is (laughs) ignorance. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256). The things which are usable by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if we give up them, prapañcikā , as material, that is foolishness. That they do not know. They have yet to learn. It is Rūpa Gosvāmī's injunction. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ, mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgaḥ. Parityāga means giving up: "Oh, it is material." So we are not such fools, śūnyavādī and nirviśeṣavādī . We are not such fools. *Arjuna, he thought that not killing is better than killing, but Kṛṣṇa convinced him, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Therefore he, after reading Bhagavad*-gītā , he took it, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Generally people understand not killing is better than killing. But Kṛṣṇa explained to Arjuna, "No, if there is My desire, then killing is better than not killing." And that is knowledge. Therefore we have to carry out simply Kṛṣṇa's order or His representative's order. Then it is all good. Either killing or not killing, it doesn't matter because it is coming directly from the Supreme. And that is spiritual. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa induced Arjuna to kill? He was presenting as very good man, that "I shall not kill." And that's . . . actually that is good. Even if your enemy excuse him, that is very good idea. But if it is not desired by Kṛṣṇa, then it is bad. So our principle is: We have to act according to the desire of Kṛṣṇa; then it is good. Otherwise, bad. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So in spite of advancement of knowledge, because they are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore they are all duṣkṛtinaḥ , all sinful men. That is the test. So it is very difficult to understand this philosophy, but this is the fact. We are not going to be followers of zero- vādīs or impersonal- vādīs . We remain completely in the varieties, but these varieties are usable only for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. You cannot stop the varieties. You have to change the quality of the varieties. Just like we are eating. It is not possible to stop eating. Why shall I stop eating? But the quality is changed. It is prasādam . Just like we're getting some money for our books . . . The quality's changed. . . . they take that spiritual life is negation of anything that they're doing now—no more money, no more anything. For our personal comfort, we, our students are lying on the floor. They are not using the money for purchasing nice furniture. No personal comfort. But if you say that, "You are purchasing big, big car," yes, for going quickly to serve Kṛṣṇa. Our service is main point. If I can go and serve Kṛṣṇa within a minute, why shall I wait for one hour? So we take all advantages. After all, it belongs to Kṛṣṇa. They say that "We have manufactured." That's all . . . but we say that Kṛṣṇa has manufactured. So they . . . this philosophy, it is little difficult to understand by the dull men, that nothing is without Kṛṣṇa. Everything . . . īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Sarvam , when we say sarvam , how we can exclude this and that? Everything is in relationship with Kṛṣṇa, sarvam. Sarvam means everything. So how can you discriminate, "This is material; this is spiritual"? The discrimination is that when it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is material, and when it is used for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. That is the explanation of sarvam . Just like a thief has stolen my money. The money will be utilized. He'll spend it. I am spending, and he is . . . then why he's criminal? If you plea . . . if you present this plea, that "Money's for spending, so either you spend or I spend . . ." But that is not the idea, that the money . . . my money means the money should be spent for my purpose, and because you have taken the money and spending for your purpose, therefore you are criminal. That is the distinction between material and spiritual. Money, or everything, belongs to Kṛṣṇa. When it is utilized for Kṛṣṇa, this is spiritual, and when it is not utilized for Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? You cannot say that, "Yes, I have taken your money, so you are also spending, I am also spending. So why do you call me a criminal?" The answer will be: "Yes, you are not spending for me; you are spending for you. Therefore you are criminal." Is it very difficult to understand? That last argument again? You're taking money . . .? The money belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Yes. So if you spend it for Kṛṣṇa, then it is spiritual. Yes. *And if you spend for your benefit, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8), bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasām (BG 5.29). Repeatedly says. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor. So when everything is used for the fulfillment of the will of the proprietor, that is proper use. Otherwise improper use. Just like we have given several times this example, "Keep to the right," "Keep to the left." So you are driving your car. The will is, government will is, "Keep to the right." As soon as you keep to the left, immediately you are criminal. You cannot put this argument, "What is the wrong? I am driving." "No, because you have violated my will, therefore you are . . ." the government will see. That is criminal. So everything . . . bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasā . . . He is the proprietor. He is the enjoyer. So because you have enjoyed without His permission, therefore you become criminal. You are punishable. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpam (BG 3.13). You'll see this verse. *Bhagavad*-gītā . *Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). It's gone, Śrīla Prabhupāda. What can I do? "In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajña , supply all necessities to man. But he who enjoys these gifts without offering them to the demigods in return is certainly a thief." Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation A -- April 22, 1976, Melbourne What is that? The machine, I forgot to turn it . . . one knob down. I wanted to tape what you were saying, because . . . (break) We find actually it's true that when we try to speak philosophy sometimes to unwilling persons, they take that we are trying to convert them. Yes. And therefore they feel threatened. They react in an adverse way, put up so many barriers. Chanting they will take part. That's it. Before you went to America, in India, before 1965, were people coming at all, Indian people, to learn anything? Were they interested in any way? No. Now they're coming, so many. They were coming, but I was engaged in writing. I was not visiting many . . . (break) . . . when they begin to write, then they finish up their activities and retire and simply write. But you wrote first and then came out and distributed it. I personally, I don't think that even Americans or Westerners would have accepted even your teachings, as clear as they are, without having your personal association and seeing your example. I think people would have thought that it's totally impossible to do such a thing. It would have remained theoretical. But because you came and showed practical example, then everything has become very easy. Yes. Āpani ācārī prabhu jīvera śikṣāya . That is the way of teaching. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do. *I've read some of your old Back to Godhead magazines, and actually you've been saying the same thing all along, with the same force also. Some of your critiques of Dr. Radhakrishnan's Bhagavad*-gītā and modern science . . . You have read? Oh, yes. "Scholars Deluded." Sometimes the devotees say that, "Now Prabhupāda is preaching much more strongly than ever before." But then, when we read the old Back to Godheads , it's exactly the same. Even if we read the First Canto of *Bhāgavatam* . . . It's very powerful. You translated that in India before you came. (end) Conversation A -- April 22, 1976, Melbourne What is that? The machine, I forgot to turn it . . . one knob down. I wanted to tape what you were saying, because . . . (break) We find actually it's true that when we try to speak philosophy sometimes to unwilling persons, they take that we are trying to convert them. Yes. And therefore they feel threatened. They react in an adverse way, put up so many barriers. Chanting they will take part. That's it. Before you went to America, in India, before 1965, were people coming at all, Indian people, to learn anything? Were they interested in any way? No. Now they're coming, so many. They were coming, but I was engaged in writing. I was not visiting many . . . (break) . . . when they begin to write, then they finish up their activities and retire and simply write. But you wrote first and then came out and distributed it. I personally, I don't think that even Americans or Westerners would have accepted even your teachings, as clear as they are, without having your personal association and seeing your example. I think people would have thought that it's totally impossible to do such a thing. It would have remained theoretical. But because you came and showed practical example, then everything has become very easy. Yes. Āpani ācārī prabhu jīvera śikṣāya . That is the way of teaching. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do. *I've read some of your old Back to Godhead magazines, and actually you've been saying the same thing all along, with the same force also. Some of your critiques of Dr. Radhakrishnan's Bhagavad*-gītā and modern science . . . You have read? Oh, yes. "Scholars Deluded." Sometimes the devotees say that, "Now Prabhupāda is preaching much more strongly than ever before." But then, when we read the old Back to Godheads , it's exactly the same. Even if we read the First Canto of *Bhāgavatam* . . . It's very powerful. You translated that in India before you came. (end) Conversation A -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne (Conversation with Minister Dixon) . . . social welfare, and also he's minister for sport and recreation. He has come to see you, and this is his secretary. Well, I am very pleased to have the opportunity of meeting you. Sit down. How long have you been in Australia? Just up to Sunday. Monday we are going? Yes, we were here on the twentieth of July. We'll be here until Monday. What's the main reason for your visit? Preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, about Kṛṣṇa. You have seen our books, our . . . show him. Have you seen Prabhupāda's books? The book I was just showing you? I am not very familiar with the books. We have got very good response for accepting our books all over the world, Kṛṣṇa books. The reason that I was most interested to come is that my responsibilities in Victoria are a lot to do with the growth of our young people, and I think that many of the things that we don't succeed in doing, the problems that we have with drugs and alcohol and all sorts of unhappiness, that what your life indicates has got something that I think we could do well to take parts of it, to be involved in the things, the way in which we live. And I'd be interested to hear from you as to what you would believe might be done to encourage a greater acceptance of your areas of philosophy and religion. *Yes. Our philosophy is to purify, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12). Our philosophy is to purify the core of the heart from all dirty things. This is the basic principle of our philosophy, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam , cleansing the core of the heart. So just this morning several boys and girls became initiated. So our first promise is, before the Deity, before the fire, before the Vaiṣṇavas, before the spiritual master, that from this day no more illicit sex, no more intoxication, no more meat-eating, no more gambling. This is the first initiation. Then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Very simple method. But one cannot practice these things without association of devotees. Nobody can do it outside. But here they are able; immediately they give up. All these boys, they were addicted to all these habits, but since they have come to the association, immediately they have given up, instantly. So you can bring any number of young men, and we shall be glad to make him free from all these things, practically engage him. It is open. If you like, you can take advantage. Yes. I am thinking more in terms of our general education system, for example. This is the best education. Our education begins when we learn to see all women as mother. That is the beginning of education. When we learn . . . It doesn't require Ph.D. degrees to train him in such a way that a person will see, except his married wife, all women as mother. Women as . . .? All women. As mother. As mother. *Mother. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu . This is the original system of education in India, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu , to think of all women except his own wife as mother. Para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat : "Others' money as the garbage in the street." Nobody touches the garbage. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu (Cāṇakya-śloka 10): "And one who sees all other living entities on the level of himself . . ." If you feel pinching, why should you pinch others? If one learns these three things, he is paṇḍita , he is learned. And another three things: When you accept Kṛṣṇa, or God . . . when I say Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means God. God is the proprietor of everything. Just take for example the United Nation. They are going and making noise, full speeches, for the last fifty years, but the fighting is going on. But they do not . . . why do they not pass a resolution that, "This earth planet . . ." Take . . . only take this earth planet, earthly planet. Other you leave aside. "This is the property of God, and we are all sons of God. Let us enjoy the property of the . . ." But you will not allow. You Australian, you have got so much land. You won't allow anybody to come, because you think it is your land. Yes, I think, ah, if you're looking at the . . . No, no, this is the principle. Actually it is not your land. You come from Europe. I agree that it's not. *But you are now claiming it is your land. The Africans, they are claiming . . . so much land, you can produce ten times food grains for as many population as there are. Ten times milk is required, food grain is required. That is the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). If we produced all of the foods that we could produce and we literally gave them away to other countries that need them, we'd produce a tremendous disincentive in those countries for their own production. I don't think it's as easy, the world . . . Production . . . you take the total land as God's property, and all the population, they are sons of God. Then whole problem solved. Everything solved. If economic problem is solved, then social, political, religious, philosophical, everything is solved. If there was exchange without money, I think you'd be right. No money required. No money required. Simply one is required to work to produce food grain. That's all. No money required. And God has given us so much land that we can produce food grain and we can keep cows' milk, and from milk we derive so many rich, nutritious, full of vitamins foodstuff that the whole economic question solved immediately. But we are producing . . . instead of food grain, we are producing tobacco for smoking cigarette. We are producing coffee for going to hell. So how you can expect social reformation? In Africa I have seen: instead of producing grain, they are producing coffee, tea, and keeping the cows for killing, making business to sell meat to other countries. Is incense a form of intoxication? Incense? No. Why intoxication? I don't know. Incense keeps the atmosphere very nice, fresh. *Very sweet*-smelling. This flower is not intoxicating. It is just like in your country, what is that fragrance? Scent. Scent. Perfume? Perfume is very popular. But I would have thought that in some ways it might perform the same sort of function for some people as, say, smoking some cigarettes performs for others. No. In other words, it . . . That depends on the particular man, what kind of flavor he wants. That is another thing. But there are different varieties of incense. Generally we use rose flavor, sandalwood flavor. We offer to the Deity room to keep the atmosphere very favorable. This is, originally in India it was dhūpa . They used to put in the fire some flavored hulls, and it was very nice. That has been transferred into now stick incense. The stricture on the eating of meat, does that derive from the fact that animals have their lives which are accorded . . . No, vegetable, vegetable has got life. Yes. What I'm asking is that because animals have a higher priority in life than vegetables? *No question of priority. Our philosophy is that we are servant of God. So God will eat, and whatever remnants of foodstuff He'll left, that we shall take. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (aside) You find out this verse: patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Just like you have come here. So if I want to offer you something for eatable, it is my duty to ask you, "Mr. Nixon, which foodstuff you'll like to eat?" So you dictate, "I like this very much." Then, if I offer you that foodstuff, then you become pleased. So we have called Kṛṣṇa in this temple, so we are waiting, what foodstuff He wants to eat. So He said that . . . "If one offers me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it." Ah, yes. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam. He is asking very simple thing which everyone can offer. Just like a little leaf, patram; a little flower, puṣpam; a little fruit; and little liquid, either water or ghee, er, milk. So we offer that. We make different varieties with these ingredients, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), and after Kṛṣṇa's eating, we take it. We are servant; *we take the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. We are neither vegetarian nor nonvegetarian. We are prasād*-ian . We don't care for vegetable or not vegetable, because either you kill a cow or kill a vegetable, the sinful action is there. And according to nature's law, it is said that "The animals which has no hand, that is the food for the animals with hands." We are also animals with hands. We human being, we are also animal with hands, and they are animals—no hand but four legs. And there are animals which has no leg, that is vegetable. Apadāni catuṣ-padām (SB 1.13.47). These animals which has no leg, they are food for the animals with four leg. Just like cow eats grass, the goat eats grass. So eating vegetable, there is no credit. Then the goats and the cows are more credit, have more credit, because they don't touch anything except vegetable. So we are not preaching to become goats and cows. No. We are preaching that you become servant of Kṛṣṇa. So whatever Kṛṣṇa eats, we eat. If Kṛṣṇa says that, "Give me meat, give me eggs," so we shall offer Kṛṣṇa meat and eggs, and we shall take it. So don't think that we are after vegetarian, nonvegetarian. No. That is not our philosophy. Because either you take vegetable or you take meat, you are killing. And you have to kill, because otherwise you cannot live. That is nature's way. Yes. So we are not for that way. Well, why do you put the stricture on . . . *Stricture in this way, no meat*-eating, because cow protection is required. We require milk. And instead of taking milk, if we eat the cows, then where is milk? So milk is very important. Very, very important. In terms of the production of food for the world, the world would be much better off without eating animals. No, milk is required. Some fatty vitaminous food is required. That necessity is supplied by milk. Therefore specifically . . . Couldn't you get all the necessity you require from grains? Grains, no. Grains, they are starch. According to medical science, we require four different groups: starch, carbohydrate, protein and fat. That is full food. So you can get all these things by eating rice, ḍāl , mean pulses, and wheat, and . . . these things contain . . . pulses and wheat contains protein. And milk also contains protein. So protein we require. Fat we get from milk. Fat is required. And vegetables, carbohydrate and food grain, starch. So if you prepare nice foodstuff with all these ingredients, you get full . . . and offer to Kṛṣṇa, then it is purified. Then you are free from all sinful activities. Otherwise, even if you kill vegetable, you are sinful because it has got life. You have no right to kill another life. But you have to live on life. This is your position. Therefore the solution is that you take prasādam . If there is sin by eating vegetable or meat, it goes to the eater. We take the remnants, that's all. You follow? Not exactly. The food that we take is first offered to Kṛṣṇa in the temple, so Kṛṣṇa is the first to eat. And Kṛṣṇa demands that, "You offer Me this particular sorts of foodstuff." So one becomes free from all sinful reactions by first offering to Kṛṣṇa the foodstuff. Not only are you eating, but also you become freed from sinful reaction. I see. Don't think we are vegetarian. We can become anything, provided it is eaten from the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. This is our thing. To become vegetarian . . . there are many animals who are vegetarians. The monkeys are vegetarian; the goats are vegetarian; *the cows are vegetarian. So that is not a good qualification, to become vegetarian and become an animal, or to become lion, tiger, dog. So either you are vegetarian or meat*-eater . . . there are many animals. So we are not going to be animals. We are going to become human being. This is our philosophy. Grouping ourself to the vegetarian kingdom or nonvege . . . the animals. The tiger is a great nonvegetarian. Fresh blood they want to eat, drink. Your Grace, do you keep in touch with the world through television or newspapers or the media? Yes, many newspaper, many television men, they come. But we speak our philosophy plainly. Do you watch TV yourself? No, we have no business. We don't wish to waste our time. Do you read newspapers? No. What is newspaper? "This man is killed. This man has stolen. This politician has captured the government." So why shall I waste in the time? How do you become informed as to certain events? Is that . . . We have got enough books to read, these books. If you read our books, in your whole lifetime you cannot finish it. And that is required to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is success of life. So why should . . . of course, we are in touch in the newspaper, but as much as it is required. We are in touch with the material world as much as it is required. We are interested in Kṛṣṇa. To help our Kṛṣṇa consciousness we may be in touch with the material world as much as possible. Just like we are riding car also, we are also using Dictaphone, everything, but it is not for any ulterior purpose. It is for Kṛṣṇa's service. Just like we are writing books. This is Kṛṣṇa's service. People may understand about Kṛṣṇa, be benefited. This is our . . . and in that way we are printing books, we are selling books, we are writing books. How many people are in the Kṛṣṇa movement in the world, about? About ten to twelve thousand, directly dedicated. Otherwise millions, they are reading our books. They have sympathy. We are selling books very nicely, daily twenty thousand dollar minimum all over the world. In learned circle, big, big universities, professors, they are appreciating. We have many congratulations. And the funds that you derive from the books . . . Book Trust. That is explained. . . . are used within your congre . . . within the people that live in . . . Yes. I make a Book Trust. That is my will, that from all the collection of the books, fifty percent for reprinting and fifty percent for expanding these temples, these buildings. In this way. We really don't require very much for our maintenance. As you can see, we live a very simple life. Just like these boys, they are practiced to sit down. We have kept two chairs for the visitors. (laughter) We don't require. We can lie down on the floor. We can use only one or two cloths, that's all, throughout the whole year. We have no demands; only bare necessities. We don't smoke, don't drink. There is no expenditure. Don't go to cinema, don't read newspaper or ordinary magazines—nothing. We have got reading matter. Practically we are noncooperating. Practically . . .? Noncooperating. Noncooperating. Noncooperating? Practically. I don't understand that. Because we are not engaged in so many of the superfluous or unnecessary . . . Material amenities. These things are described in Vedic terms as anartha . They are not very important or very valuable to human advancement. What is really essential is advancement in knowledge. One of the principles upon which I have lived is a question of involvement with the people around me in trying to do things better than they have been done before. *But you must know first of all what is the aim of life and what is better. That we must know. So that is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that we are not interested in God; *then whole thing is spoiled. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). We are not interested in God. We want to be happy by adjusting the external energy of God. That is blind leadership. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This will never be successful, and it is blind leadership because we do not know what is the aim. If you know the aim of life, and if we make program according to that aim, then it will be successful. Blindly everyone is manufacturing his aim, objective—different leaders, different "isms." The Communists, they have got different aims. The capitalists, they have got different aims. The socialists, they have got different aims. Is it true that there are more young people now in the world that are giving more serious thought to what life is really all about? Yes, they should. Because they are being educated, they are experiencing the faults of their fathers and grandfathers. And are they able to tell that? So we are telling, "This is the aim. You take." And therefore more response from the younger section. All our devotees, they are just like my grandchildren. Their fathers may be like my children. But they are responsive. How do you spend a day? Day? How do we . . . what do we do during the day? What are our activities? *We have got activities day and night, but because the body is there, we have to eat, but we eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam . And naturally we go to sleep, to take some rest. Otherwise, we are always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. We have no other business. So I go in the morning for little morning walk because the body, whole day if I sit down, it may be jammed. Therefore, for body's sake, I go for little walking. And then, whole day and night, I am sitting here, either chanting or writing books or talking with you, giving them direction. That's all. We have no other business than Kṛṣṇa's business. That is the peculiarity of this movement. Even if you take it is a religious movement, there is no religious movement in the whole world which has got twenty*-four hours' engagement. You'll never find. The Christians go to the church once in a week for one hour, then closed. That is also not very regularly. Even if you take . . . our engagement, twenty-four hours. Every day. *Every day. You can see how we are engaged twenty*-four hours. Prabhupāda gets up at one o'clock in the morning. Last night I woke up at half past twelve. (laughter) Yes. So on the whole, utmost I sleep four hours—two hours at night and two hours in daytime. I must . . . your Grace, I'm most grateful to have seen you. I must depart. Thank you very much for having me here. Why, thank you for your coming. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him prasāda . *Good*-bye. (break) *. . . misleader. But he himself has no character. So here it is open secret, to keep a beautiful girl as secretary, everywhere in Europe and America. So where is purity? Marriage is a taboo, and keep secretary is very good job. And you can get secretary even free of charge. Rather, she will pay. So this is going on. In Vedic civilization marriage is one of the important function of life. As death is important function, birth is important function, similarly, marriage is also important function. Janma*-mṛtyu-vivāha. So in this age everywhere, not only . . . the marriage is now farce. This is the symptom of Kali-yuga: there will be no more marriage. Svīkāra eva codvāhe (SB 12.2.5). Even there is marriage, there will be simply an agreement. That is happening, and it was written five thousand years ago. Svīkāra eva. Svīkāra means by agreement, signing agreement. No marriage function. Otherwise, marriage is a . . . According to Vedic system, if one has got some money, he will spend the money in three functions. When the child is born, very gorgeously he will spend money, give in charity. Always in the Bhāg . . . Nanda Mahārāja is giving in charity cows and money, and Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja is giving. Kṛṣṇa, as family man, He was giving in charity. So when the child is born, the horoscope is made, and to make the child happy, blessings of saintly persons, brāhmaṇas , they are given. So ordinary men also sumptuously fed. So bhūribhiḥ . Everyone gives some blessings so that the child is . . . then marriage. During marriage time . . . you have seen Kṛṣṇa's mother's marriage? That was the system. The father gives to his heart content as much as possible to the daughter. The Kṛṣṇa's mother was royal prince, so her father gave so many elephants, so many horses, so many chariots. (break) This śrāddha ceremony. That is also, feeding the learned brāhmaṇas , saintly person, poor man, relative. Lavishly they spend money during three occasions: birth, death and marriage. During birth the father spends; the marriage, father spends; and death, the son spends. This is the system. So social reformation, but there is no idea how the society will be happy. There is no idea. They are trying to remove this intoxication, LSD, but do not see the cause why LSD has come. They do not try to stop that cause. When the cause is effective, then they are disturbed with the effect. This is the defect. Neither they'll take advice. So how they'll be able to . . . big, big officer, drawing high salary, that's all. There is no effect. Neither there can be any effect. It is not possible. They do not know. Neither they want it. So we are advocating, "Remove these four sinful activities," so nobody will agree. "Illicit sex is our life, to keep a friend, to keep a secretary." And we are advising, "No illicit sex." Then where is life? That's all. They say, "Why should I live if I can't do these things?" Hmm? One devotee in New Zealand, his father was dying of leukemia. He told his father to stop eating meat and smoking cigarettes and his health would improve. His father said, "If I can't do these things, what is the use of living?" So somebody should . . . (break) . . . committed suicide? Ernest Hemingway. Ernest Hemingway. When he found out . . . when the doctor told him he couldn't have sex life anymore, he killed himself. He was a very big and rich author. This is the, I mean, important men. That one Marwari, he spent eighteen lakhs of rupees. Hmm? Marwari, who spent eighteen lakhs . I do not know eighteen lakhs , but I know that he went to Germany for medical operation and changing the gland with monkey's gland. Yes. He was eighty years old at that time. The leaders are so infected. There was an article recently . . . Therefore I say, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). That is already dictated by *Bhāgavatam* . These leaders, rascals, who are blind, and they are trying to lead other blind men. All of them are falling in the ditch. In the case of Mahārāja Veṇa there was some recourse for the brāhmaṇas . What can we do? *Yes, brāhmaṇas were controlling the kṣatriyas . They were obeying the instruction of brāhmaṇas . That is social function. The first*-class man will give instruction to the government, and the government will carry the order, "Whether people are actually doing this." Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya . And vaiśya will produce food grain and milk sufficiently. And the śūdras , they will help these three higher classes. That's all. This is social system. (break) The brāhmaṇas , they will be always engaged to make plan how people will be successful in the aim of life. And that will be executed through the kṣatriyas . And the vaiśyas will supply foodstuff. Food is also required. And good government is required, and nice direction is required. This is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. And śūdra , they have no brain; *they will abide by the orders of these higher sections, that's all. So our movement is creating first*-class Brāhmiṇs , and the kṣatriyas , if they abide by our instruction—our instruction means Kṛṣṇa's instruction—then everything will be nicely done. Sannyāsīs , they have begun to keep secretaries. Yogi Bhajan. *So many. This tail, dog's tail. Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha or anything, the tail is this side. You may grease it as much as possible, but the whole tendency is sex, that's all, in different dresses only. The objective is sex. This is going on. Some of them are openly declaring that, "I am for sex," and some of them showbottle. But the objective is sex. This is the whole world. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha (SB 7.9.45). And these sannyāsīs like Rajneesh, they are advocating, "This is life—sex. By sex indulgence you get salvation." These brahma-kumārīs . Not brahmacārī but brahma-kumārī. Kumārīs are available very easily. And they keep. And the rich men, they are supplied with nice, beautiful kumārīs . They pay money. This is going on. Brahma-kumārī . They enjoy, and they invite the karmīs to enjoy and get money. Kumārī is there; money is there. That's all. Everywhere this is going on. This just came from Los Angeles along with some other things. They're having an International Yoga and Meditation conference in Chicago in June, and Rāmeśvara was wanting to know if we should send some of our preachers there, to try and have some kind of a booth or take part in it. If it is possible. It is sponsored by the Himalayan International Institute of Yoga Science and Philosophy, Swami Rama from the Himalayas. Bogus. He's a bogus. Then don't take part. There's many . . . it's costing fifteen dollars for people to get in. So we are not going to give. Most . . . I have looked over the people who are speaking. Most of them are from this society. Hmm? *Most of them are from this society. It seems what they've done, they've taken some of the big bhogīs in America like Satchidananda and others, and they've invited them, to draw bigger crowds. So they're taking this opportunity for money*-making. I think we'll probably sell books there, anyway. Hmm? I'm sure that our devotees will sell books there. Yes, you can have a book stall. But outside, though. Somehow or another. We used to do outside. *There is no use taking part in that meeting. Simply take a book stall: " Bhakti*-yoga books." Give a signboard, " Bhakti-yoga books." And give the picture of Dhruva Mahārāja, five-years-old boy, executing bhakti-yoga alone in the forest. We have got meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). That is real yoga . And Bhagavad-gītā , yoginām api . . . these ślokas, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā (BG 6.47). One who's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, he is first-class yogī . Give one picture of the devotees chanting in a very nice place, and give evidence, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā : "This, first-class yogī . Here is first-class yogī ." That will be our preaching. Dhruva Mahārāja is practicing yoga . There are many others. So the highest perfection is Rādhārāṇī, that simply crying, "Kṛṣṇa has gone to Mathurā, not coming back." That is the . . . the whole day and night crying. Who can perform this yoga ? So if you, if possible, draw pictures. Satchidananda, he is also a leader? He has? Yes. Yogi Bhajan. Yogi Bhajan also? Yes. Kriyananda Swami, Nada Brahmānanda from Rishikesh, Swami Ajaya, Ph.D., from Madison, Wisconsin. (laughter) It's a small college town in America. Yogi Bhajan. There's many others. They have these names. These names are not like our names. A lot of Indian doctors from Canada and India, America. There's one with a Japanese name as well. So you can give yogī import that, "Hare Kṛṣṇa is the greatest of all yoga systems." Topmost yoga . *Yes. And quote from Bhagavad*-gītā . Show pictures. You'd like to take your massage now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (break) (end) Conversation A -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne (Conversation with Minister Dixon) . . . social welfare, and also he's minister for sport and recreation. He has come to see you, and this is his secretary. Well, I am very pleased to have the opportunity of meeting you. Sit down. How long have you been in Australia? Just up to Sunday. Monday we are going? Yes, we were here on the twentieth of July. We'll be here until Monday. What's the main reason for your visit? Preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, about Kṛṣṇa. You have seen our books, our . . . show him. Have you seen Prabhupāda's books? The book I was just showing you? I am not very familiar with the books. We have got very good response for accepting our books all over the world, Kṛṣṇa books. The reason that I was most interested to come is that my responsibilities in Victoria are a lot to do with the growth of our young people, and I think that many of the things that we don't succeed in doing, the problems that we have with drugs and alcohol and all sorts of unhappiness, that what your life indicates has got something that I think we could do well to take parts of it, to be involved in the things, the way in which we live. And I'd be interested to hear from you as to what you would believe might be done to encourage a greater acceptance of your areas of philosophy and religion. *Yes. Our philosophy is to purify, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12). Our philosophy is to purify the core of the heart from all dirty things. This is the basic principle of our philosophy, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam , cleansing the core of the heart. So just this morning several boys and girls became initiated. So our first promise is, before the Deity, before the fire, before the Vaiṣṇavas, before the spiritual master, that from this day no more illicit sex, no more intoxication, no more meat-eating, no more gambling. This is the first initiation. Then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Very simple method. But one cannot practice these things without association of devotees. Nobody can do it outside. But here they are able; immediately they give up. All these boys, they were addicted to all these habits, but since they have come to the association, immediately they have given up, instantly. So you can bring any number of young men, and we shall be glad to make him free from all these things, practically engage him. It is open. If you like, you can take advantage. Yes. I am thinking more in terms of our general education system, for example. This is the best education. Our education begins when we learn to see all women as mother. That is the beginning of education. When we learn . . . It doesn't require Ph.D. degrees to train him in such a way that a person will see, except his married wife, all women as mother. Women as . . .? All women. As mother. As mother. *Mother. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu . This is the original system of education in India, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu , to think of all women except his own wife as mother. Para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat : "Others' money as the garbage in the street." Nobody touches the garbage. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu (Cāṇakya-śloka 10): "And one who sees all other living entities on the level of himself . . ." If you feel pinching, why should you pinch others? If one learns these three things, he is paṇḍita , he is learned. And another three things: When you accept Kṛṣṇa, or God . . . when I say Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means God. God is the proprietor of everything. Just take for example the United Nation. They are going and making noise, full speeches, for the last fifty years, but the fighting is going on. But they do not . . . why do they not pass a resolution that, "This earth planet . . ." Take . . . only take this earth planet, earthly planet. Other you leave aside. "This is the property of God, and we are all sons of God. Let us enjoy the property of the . . ." But you will not allow. You Australian, you have got so much land. You won't allow anybody to come, because you think it is your land. Yes, I think, ah, if you're looking at the . . . No, no, this is the principle. Actually it is not your land. You come from Europe. I agree that it's not. *But you are now claiming it is your land. The Africans, they are claiming . . . so much land, you can produce ten times food grains for as many population as there are. Ten times milk is required, food grain is required. That is the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). If we produced all of the foods that we could produce and we literally gave them away to other countries that need them, we'd produce a tremendous disincentive in those countries for their own production. I don't think it's as easy, the world . . . Production . . . you take the total land as God's property, and all the population, they are sons of God. Then whole problem solved. Everything solved. If economic problem is solved, then social, political, religious, philosophical, everything is solved. If there was exchange without money, I think you'd be right. No money required. No money required. Simply one is required to work to produce food grain. That's all. No money required. And God has given us so much land that we can produce food grain and we can keep cows' milk, and from milk we derive so many rich, nutritious, full of vitamins foodstuff that the whole economic question solved immediately. But we are producing . . . instead of food grain, we are producing tobacco for smoking cigarette. We are producing coffee for going to hell. So how you can expect social reformation? In Africa I have seen: instead of producing grain, they are producing coffee, tea, and keeping the cows for killing, making business to sell meat to other countries. Is incense a form of intoxication? Incense? No. Why intoxication? I don't know. Incense keeps the atmosphere very nice, fresh. *Very sweet*-smelling. This flower is not intoxicating. It is just like in your country, what is that fragrance? Scent. Scent. Perfume? Perfume is very popular. But I would have thought that in some ways it might perform the same sort of function for some people as, say, smoking some cigarettes performs for others. No. In other words, it . . . That depends on the particular man, what kind of flavor he wants. That is another thing. But there are different varieties of incense. Generally we use rose flavor, sandalwood flavor. We offer to the Deity room to keep the atmosphere very favorable. This is, originally in India it was dhūpa . They used to put in the fire some flavored hulls, and it was very nice. That has been transferred into now stick incense. The stricture on the eating of meat, does that derive from the fact that animals have their lives which are accorded . . . No, vegetable, vegetable has got life. Yes. What I'm asking is that because animals have a higher priority in life than vegetables? *No question of priority. Our philosophy is that we are servant of God. So God will eat, and whatever remnants of foodstuff He'll left, that we shall take. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (aside) You find out this verse: patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Just like you have come here. So if I want to offer you something for eatable, it is my duty to ask you, "Mr. Nixon, which foodstuff you'll like to eat?" So you dictate, "I like this very much." Then, if I offer you that foodstuff, then you become pleased. So we have called Kṛṣṇa in this temple, so we are waiting, what foodstuff He wants to eat. So He said that . . . "If one offers me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it." Ah, yes. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam. He is asking very simple thing which everyone can offer. Just like a little leaf, patram; a little flower, puṣpam; a little fruit; and little liquid, either water or ghee, er, milk. So we offer that. We make different varieties with these ingredients, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), and after Kṛṣṇa's eating, we take it. We are servant; *we take the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. We are neither vegetarian nor nonvegetarian. We are prasād*-ian . We don't care for vegetable or not vegetable, because either you kill a cow or kill a vegetable, the sinful action is there. And according to nature's law, it is said that "The animals which has no hand, that is the food for the animals with hands." We are also animals with hands. We human being, we are also animal with hands, and they are animals—no hand but four legs. And there are animals which has no leg, that is vegetable. Apadāni catuṣ-padām (SB 1.13.47). These animals which has no leg, they are food for the animals with four leg. Just like cow eats grass, the goat eats grass. So eating vegetable, there is no credit. Then the goats and the cows are more credit, have more credit, because they don't touch anything except vegetable. So we are not preaching to become goats and cows. No. We are preaching that you become servant of Kṛṣṇa. So whatever Kṛṣṇa eats, we eat. If Kṛṣṇa says that, "Give me meat, give me eggs," so we shall offer Kṛṣṇa meat and eggs, and we shall take it. So don't think that we are after vegetarian, nonvegetarian. No. That is not our philosophy. Because either you take vegetable or you take meat, you are killing. And you have to kill, because otherwise you cannot live. That is nature's way. Yes. So we are not for that way. Well, why do you put the stricture on . . . *Stricture in this way, no meat*-eating, because cow protection is required. We require milk. And instead of taking milk, if we eat the cows, then where is milk? So milk is very important. Very, very important. In terms of the production of food for the world, the world would be much better off without eating animals. No, milk is required. Some fatty vitaminous food is required. That necessity is supplied by milk. Therefore specifically . . . Couldn't you get all the necessity you require from grains? Grains, no. Grains, they are starch. According to medical science, we require four different groups: starch, carbohydrate, protein and fat. That is full food. So you can get all these things by eating rice, ḍāl , mean pulses, and wheat, and . . . these things contain . . . pulses and wheat contains protein. And milk also contains protein. So protein we require. Fat we get from milk. Fat is required. And vegetables, carbohydrate and food grain, starch. So if you prepare nice foodstuff with all these ingredients, you get full . . . and offer to Kṛṣṇa, then it is purified. Then you are free from all sinful activities. Otherwise, even if you kill vegetable, you are sinful because it has got life. You have no right to kill another life. But you have to live on life. This is your position. Therefore the solution is that you take prasādam . If there is sin by eating vegetable or meat, it goes to the eater. We take the remnants, that's all. You follow? Not exactly. The food that we take is first offered to Kṛṣṇa in the temple, so Kṛṣṇa is the first to eat. And Kṛṣṇa demands that, "You offer Me this particular sorts of foodstuff." So one becomes free from all sinful reactions by first offering to Kṛṣṇa the foodstuff. Not only are you eating, but also you become freed from sinful reaction. I see. Don't think we are vegetarian. We can become anything, provided it is eaten from the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. This is our thing. To become vegetarian . . . there are many animals who are vegetarians. The monkeys are vegetarian; the goats are vegetarian; *the cows are vegetarian. So that is not a good qualification, to become vegetarian and become an animal, or to become lion, tiger, dog. So either you are vegetarian or meat*-eater . . . there are many animals. So we are not going to be animals. We are going to become human being. This is our philosophy. Grouping ourself to the vegetarian kingdom or nonvege . . . the animals. The tiger is a great nonvegetarian. Fresh blood they want to eat, drink. Your Grace, do you keep in touch with the world through television or newspapers or the media? Yes, many newspaper, many television men, they come. But we speak our philosophy plainly. Do you watch TV yourself? No, we have no business. We don't wish to waste our time. Do you read newspapers? No. What is newspaper? "This man is killed. This man has stolen. This politician has captured the government." So why shall I waste in the time? How do you become informed as to certain events? Is that . . . We have got enough books to read, these books. If you read our books, in your whole lifetime you cannot finish it. And that is required to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is success of life. So why should . . . of course, we are in touch in the newspaper, but as much as it is required. We are in touch with the material world as much as it is required. We are interested in Kṛṣṇa. To help our Kṛṣṇa consciousness we may be in touch with the material world as much as possible. Just like we are riding car also, we are also using Dictaphone, everything, but it is not for any ulterior purpose. It is for Kṛṣṇa's service. Just like we are writing books. This is Kṛṣṇa's service. People may understand about Kṛṣṇa, be benefited. This is our . . . and in that way we are printing books, we are selling books, we are writing books. How many people are in the Kṛṣṇa movement in the world, about? About ten to twelve thousand, directly dedicated. Otherwise millions, they are reading our books. They have sympathy. We are selling books very nicely, daily twenty thousand dollar minimum all over the world. In learned circle, big, big universities, professors, they are appreciating. We have many congratulations. And the funds that you derive from the books . . . Book Trust. That is explained. . . . are used within your congre . . . within the people that live in . . . Yes. I make a Book Trust. That is my will, that from all the collection of the books, fifty percent for reprinting and fifty percent for expanding these temples, these buildings. In this way. We really don't require very much for our maintenance. As you can see, we live a very simple life. Just like these boys, they are practiced to sit down. We have kept two chairs for the visitors. (laughter) We don't require. We can lie down on the floor. We can use only one or two cloths, that's all, throughout the whole year. We have no demands; only bare necessities. We don't smoke, don't drink. There is no expenditure. Don't go to cinema, don't read newspaper or ordinary magazines—nothing. We have got reading matter. Practically we are noncooperating. Practically . . .? Noncooperating. Noncooperating. Noncooperating? Practically. I don't understand that. Because we are not engaged in so many of the superfluous or unnecessary . . . Material amenities. These things are described in Vedic terms as anartha . They are not very important or very valuable to human advancement. What is really essential is advancement in knowledge. One of the principles upon which I have lived is a question of involvement with the people around me in trying to do things better than they have been done before. *But you must know first of all what is the aim of life and what is better. That we must know. So that is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that we are not interested in God; *then whole thing is spoiled. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). We are not interested in God. We want to be happy by adjusting the external energy of God. That is blind leadership. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This will never be successful, and it is blind leadership because we do not know what is the aim. If you know the aim of life, and if we make program according to that aim, then it will be successful. Blindly everyone is manufacturing his aim, objective—different leaders, different "isms." The Communists, they have got different aims. The capitalists, they have got different aims. The socialists, they have got different aims. Is it true that there are more young people now in the world that are giving more serious thought to what life is really all about? Yes, they should. Because they are being educated, they are experiencing the faults of their fathers and grandfathers. And are they able to tell that? So we are telling, "This is the aim. You take." And therefore more response from the younger section. All our devotees, they are just like my grandchildren. Their fathers may be like my children. But they are responsive. How do you spend a day? Day? How do we . . . what do we do during the day? What are our activities? *We have got activities day and night, but because the body is there, we have to eat, but we eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam . And naturally we go to sleep, to take some rest. Otherwise, we are always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. We have no other business. So I go in the morning for little morning walk because the body, whole day if I sit down, it may be jammed. Therefore, for body's sake, I go for little walking. And then, whole day and night, I am sitting here, either chanting or writing books or talking with you, giving them direction. That's all. We have no other business than Kṛṣṇa's business. That is the peculiarity of this movement. Even if you take it is a religious movement, there is no religious movement in the whole world which has got twenty*-four hours' engagement. You'll never find. The Christians go to the church once in a week for one hour, then closed. That is also not very regularly. Even if you take . . . our engagement, twenty-four hours. Every day. *Every day. You can see how we are engaged twenty*-four hours. Prabhupāda gets up at one o'clock in the morning. Last night I woke up at half past twelve. (laughter) Yes. So on the whole, utmost I sleep four hours—two hours at night and two hours in daytime. I must . . . your Grace, I'm most grateful to have seen you. I must depart. Thank you very much for having me here. Why, thank you for your coming. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him prasāda . *Good*-bye. (break) *. . . misleader. But he himself has no character. So here it is open secret, to keep a beautiful girl as secretary, everywhere in Europe and America. So where is purity? Marriage is a taboo, and keep secretary is very good job. And you can get secretary even free of charge. Rather, she will pay. So this is going on. In Vedic civilization marriage is one of the important function of life. As death is important function, birth is important function, similarly, marriage is also important function. Janma*-mṛtyu-vivāha. So in this age everywhere, not only . . . the marriage is now farce. This is the symptom of Kali-yuga: there will be no more marriage. Svīkāra eva codvāhe (SB 12.2.5). Even there is marriage, there will be simply an agreement. That is happening, and it was written five thousand years ago. Svīkāra eva. Svīkāra means by agreement, signing agreement. No marriage function. Otherwise, marriage is a . . . According to Vedic system, if one has got some money, he will spend the money in three functions. When the child is born, very gorgeously he will spend money, give in charity. Always in the Bhāg . . . Nanda Mahārāja is giving in charity cows and money, and Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja is giving. Kṛṣṇa, as family man, He was giving in charity. So when the child is born, the horoscope is made, and to make the child happy, blessings of saintly persons, brāhmaṇas , they are given. So ordinary men also sumptuously fed. So bhūribhiḥ . Everyone gives some blessings so that the child is . . . then marriage. During marriage time . . . you have seen Kṛṣṇa's mother's marriage? That was the system. The father gives to his heart content as much as possible to the daughter. The Kṛṣṇa's mother was royal prince, so her father gave so many elephants, so many horses, so many chariots. (break) This śrāddha ceremony. That is also, feeding the learned brāhmaṇas , saintly person, poor man, relative. Lavishly they spend money during three occasions: birth, death and marriage. During birth the father spends; the marriage, father spends; and death, the son spends. This is the system. So social reformation, but there is no idea how the society will be happy. There is no idea. They are trying to remove this intoxication, LSD, but do not see the cause why LSD has come. They do not try to stop that cause. When the cause is effective, then they are disturbed with the effect. This is the defect. Neither they'll take advice. So how they'll be able to . . . big, big officer, drawing high salary, that's all. There is no effect. Neither there can be any effect. It is not possible. They do not know. Neither they want it. So we are advocating, "Remove these four sinful activities," so nobody will agree. "Illicit sex is our life, to keep a friend, to keep a secretary." And we are advising, "No illicit sex." Then where is life? That's all. They say, "Why should I live if I can't do these things?" Hmm? One devotee in New Zealand, his father was dying of leukemia. He told his father to stop eating meat and smoking cigarettes and his health would improve. His father said, "If I can't do these things, what is the use of living?" So somebody should . . . (break) . . . committed suicide? Ernest Hemingway. Ernest Hemingway. When he found out . . . when the doctor told him he couldn't have sex life anymore, he killed himself. He was a very big and rich author. This is the, I mean, important men. That one Marwari, he spent eighteen lakhs of rupees. Hmm? Marwari, who spent eighteen lakhs . I do not know eighteen lakhs , but I know that he went to Germany for medical operation and changing the gland with monkey's gland. Yes. He was eighty years old at that time. The leaders are so infected. There was an article recently . . . Therefore I say, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). That is already dictated by *Bhāgavatam* . These leaders, rascals, who are blind, and they are trying to lead other blind men. All of them are falling in the ditch. In the case of Mahārāja Veṇa there was some recourse for the brāhmaṇas . What can we do? *Yes, brāhmaṇas were controlling the kṣatriyas . They were obeying the instruction of brāhmaṇas . That is social function. The first*-class man will give instruction to the government, and the government will carry the order, "Whether people are actually doing this." Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya . And vaiśya will produce food grain and milk sufficiently. And the śūdras , they will help these three higher classes. That's all. This is social system. (break) The brāhmaṇas , they will be always engaged to make plan how people will be successful in the aim of life. And that will be executed through the kṣatriyas . And the vaiśyas will supply foodstuff. Food is also required. And good government is required, and nice direction is required. This is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. And śūdra , they have no brain; *they will abide by the orders of these higher sections, that's all. So our movement is creating first*-class Brāhmiṇs , and the kṣatriyas , if they abide by our instruction—our instruction means Kṛṣṇa's instruction—then everything will be nicely done. Sannyāsīs , they have begun to keep secretaries. Yogi Bhajan. *So many. This tail, dog's tail. Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha or anything, the tail is this side. You may grease it as much as possible, but the whole tendency is sex, that's all, in different dresses only. The objective is sex. This is going on. Some of them are openly declaring that, "I am for sex," and some of them showbottle. But the objective is sex. This is the whole world. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha (SB 7.9.45). And these sannyāsīs like Rajneesh, they are advocating, "This is life—sex. By sex indulgence you get salvation." These brahma-kumārīs . Not brahmacārī but brahma-kumārī. Kumārīs are available very easily. And they keep. And the rich men, they are supplied with nice, beautiful kumārīs . They pay money. This is going on. Brahma-kumārī . They enjoy, and they invite the karmīs to enjoy and get money. Kumārī is there; money is there. That's all. Everywhere this is going on. This just came from Los Angeles along with some other things. They're having an International Yoga and Meditation conference in Chicago in June, and Rāmeśvara was wanting to know if we should send some of our preachers there, to try and have some kind of a booth or take part in it. If it is possible. It is sponsored by the Himalayan International Institute of Yoga Science and Philosophy, Swami Rama from the Himalayas. Bogus. He's a bogus. Then don't take part. There's many . . . it's costing fifteen dollars for people to get in. So we are not going to give. Most . . . I have looked over the people who are speaking. Most of them are from this society. Hmm? *Most of them are from this society. It seems what they've done, they've taken some of the big bhogīs in America like Satchidananda and others, and they've invited them, to draw bigger crowds. So they're taking this opportunity for money*-making. I think we'll probably sell books there, anyway. Hmm? I'm sure that our devotees will sell books there. Yes, you can have a book stall. But outside, though. Somehow or another. We used to do outside. *There is no use taking part in that meeting. Simply take a book stall: " Bhakti*-yoga books." Give a signboard, " Bhakti-yoga books." And give the picture of Dhruva Mahārāja, five-years-old boy, executing bhakti-yoga alone in the forest. We have got meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). That is real yoga . And Bhagavad-gītā , yoginām api . . . these ślokas, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā (BG 6.47). One who's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, he is first-class yogī . Give one picture of the devotees chanting in a very nice place, and give evidence, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā : "This, first-class yogī . Here is first-class yogī ." That will be our preaching. Dhruva Mahārāja is practicing yoga . There are many others. So the highest perfection is Rādhārāṇī, that simply crying, "Kṛṣṇa has gone to Mathurā, not coming back." That is the . . . the whole day and night crying. Who can perform this yoga ? So if you, if possible, draw pictures. Satchidananda, he is also a leader? He has? Yes. Yogi Bhajan. Yogi Bhajan also? Yes. Kriyananda Swami, Nada Brahmānanda from Rishikesh, Swami Ajaya, Ph.D., from Madison, Wisconsin. (laughter) It's a small college town in America. Yogi Bhajan. There's many others. They have these names. These names are not like our names. A lot of Indian doctors from Canada and India, America. There's one with a Japanese name as well. So you can give yogī import that, "Hare Kṛṣṇa is the greatest of all yoga systems." Topmost yoga . *Yes. And quote from Bhagavad*-gītā . Show pictures. You'd like to take your massage now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (break) (end) Conversation -- April 27, 1976, Auckland *Yeah, he's floating around somewhere doing nonsense. Now he's eating meat. (Prabhupāda chuckles) And this one boy in Fiji wrote me a letter. His friend worked at the hotel, Guru Maharaj*-ji came and stayed there, and he was a waiter. For dinner, Guru Maharaj-ji had shrimp curry and then beer. Drinking, eating meat and having illicit sex. It's his līlā . Complete nonsense. How does he keep followers? So followers are like that? Yes. Like guru , like celā . It's a very cheap thing. Very much they're moving on the group spirit. Hmm? It's just a personality cult, with no philosophy. Social club. Śrīla Prabhupāda, for the abhiṣeka , do we require cow urine and cow dung and tail of cow? Is it . . . If available. Not? Yes, we can get it. It's available. They're feeling threatened by our kīrtana parties. Who? He said that some of the town councils are trying to pass laws against our chanting in the streets. The Christians are behind it in Whangarei. So, can they pass such law? I don't think so. We're having . . . some of our men are going to meet with the council the day after tomorrow at the meeting. They're open to our side. The reason is that the businessmen have complained. Some of the businessmen have complained. Not all of them. You take some signature from other businessmen. Yes, all right. You present that. Yes. The men who are going to speak are businessmen, devotees. One is an architect. Then he can organize so many signatures. One is a restaurant owner, and one has a hairdressing salon. And they're going to speak . . . Everyone likes; that's a fact. We gave the argument before that they say it is a disturbance, but there are so many cars and airplanes which are making disturbance. They should also be stopped. Last week we wrote letters to the newspaper, and they published them, showing our view. And in Whangarei . . . it's another city, a hundred miles from here. It's near the farm, up north, and the devotees chant there. And the businessmen complained. And the devotees wrote a letter criticizing the materialistic businessmen, and that they didn't care for the people, only they wanted money. And they printed it this big in the newspaper, completely criticizing, and the people liked it. They put it in, everything, word for word what the devotees said. So it was good. So there is agitation against chanting, that is also good. It means it's effective. Yes, "Hare Kṛṣṇa is bad." (laughs) They don't want to be bothered with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Huh? They don't want to be bothered with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on with their hellish life. So we want that. Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa somehow or other. (devotees laugh) "We don't want to be bothered by Hare Kṛṣṇa," that means chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Because our kīrtana party now, we have . . . we go on kīrtana , eighty men. We go two nights a week with eighty men. Huge kīrtana with five mṛdaṅgas and guitars, and we get huge crowd from the whole street. That will make you triumphant. Go on kīrtana . That is very nice. Kīrtana and book distribution. This is also kīrtana . This is bṛhad mṛdaṅga . Yes. So do it enthusiastically. Keep yourself pure. Nobody will be able to do any harm to you. Kṛṣṇa will give you protection. So? (break) Eight crores. Didn't he say eighty crores? One crore means ten million. Rupees. Such eight. Eighty million rupees. Yes. That's a million dollars. Yes. Eight million dollars. Now it will be tested how much money we have got. (Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa laughs) Ghee is cheaper in New Zealand than in Australia. Anyway, first of all arrange for selling. I've already sent off the letter. *And you can disvertise it from New Zealand or from Australia. There can be very peaceful condition of the whole world. Simply mismanaged by the rascal leaders. Otherwise, people can live very peacefully, eat sumptuously, save time, and there is no necessity of stopping the, I mean to say, bare necessities of life. There is arrangement for eating, sleeping, sex life also. But not like fools and rascals. Like sane man. But this modern civilization, it is insane, crazy civilization. There is a little pleasure in sex life—simply sex life, increase sex life, spoiling everything. That is crazy. Eating—eat anything, any nonsense thing, and become a hog. Sleeping—oḥ, there is no limit, twenty*-four-hours sleeping if it is possible. Go on, this is going on. Eating, sleeping, mating. And defense—and discover atomic weapon, this weapon, that weapon, and kill innocent persons, unnecessarily, defense. This is going on. *But everything can be used properly for peaceful condition, and when you become peaceful, no disturbance, then you can very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and your life becomes successful. This is our program. We don't want to stop anything. How it can be stopped? Whatever is the bare neces . . . just like we have taken sannyāsa . What is that? "Oh, we have no sex life only. Otherwise, we are also eating, we are also sleeping." So that is also stopped in good old age. In old age, if a person like me, at the age of eighty years, if I would have shopped for sex life, does it look very good? Young men, they are allowed. That's all right. But a young . . . old man is going to the club and spending for sex life so much money. Therefore younger generation, they're allowed gṛhastha life from twenty*-five years to fifty years. That's all. After that, stop sex life. Actually, they want to stop population. Then why it, sex, then? No, they'll have sex life, at the same time, no population, kill the children. What is that? Simply sinful life. They will suffer, continue to suffer. So we want to stop that suffering. These rascals, they do not understand. They think, "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is disturbing." A rascal civilization. So let us try our best. What can be done? You are also helping in this movement. So don't spoil the movement by manufacturing ideas. Don't do that. Go on in the standard way, keep yourself pure; *then movement is sure to be successful. But if you want to spoil it by whimsical, then what can be done? It will be spoiled. If you manufacture whims and disagree and fight amongst yourself, then it will be another edition of these so*-called movements. It will lose the spiritual strength. Always remember it. You cannot . . . now, actually, people are surprised: "What this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra has got power that it is changing so quickly?" And on the other hand, it is to be admitted, unless it has got power, how it is changing? So we have to keep that power. Don't make it an ordinary musical vibration. It is a different thing—spiritual. Although it seems like musical vibration, but it is spiritual, completely. mantrauśadhi-vaśa . Even, by mantra , the snakes can be charmed. So mantra is not ordinary sound vibration. So we have to keep the mantra in potency, potent, by offenseless chanting, by remaining pure. If you pollute the mantra , then it will lose its effect. Hmm. (to other devotees) Today you'll be giving that lakṣmī in the morning? Because we can take our passports and go to the bank. And you can change some more at the airport when you leave. You have to have your passport. At the airport, yes. At the bank. *You have to bring the airplane ticket, too. (indistinct discussion of money matters) So concerning the temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I talked to some boys, and the one boy, Dhūmiya, he used to be in Australia, he made a fifteen*-foot-high Lord Caitanya. Do you remember at the Ratha-yātrā? Hmm. Hmm. And we're going to build a temple with nice domes, Indian style, and with sculpture like the elephant heads . . . Make in Vṛndāvana style. Yes. I'll get pictures of the different . . . There is that big dome and . . . you have seen Vṛndāvana? I have seen it just before it was finished, not since it was completed. Oh. But I've seen pictures. I think we have got pictures. And the place where we're going to put it, you'll be able to see it for miles. It'll be a landmark. That's nice. You can see it for many miles. Not only one; *you hundreds of temples construct. Village to village, town to . . . at the same time, men. And it will revolutionize the whole rascal situation. At the present moment, it is rascal situation. They're simply satisfied by driving the motor . . . put*-put-put-put-put-put-put-put-put! (Prabhupāda makes the sound of a fast motor) They are thinking, "Oh, how highly I am situated." All crazy. But this has been taught to them that, "This is civilization. If you have got a motorcycle and you can come like the wild cat, (all laugh) then you are civilized." They are thinking how great civilized they are; *we are thinking how wild cat he is. And what is the difference between wild cat and running dog and this motorcycle, put*-put ? What is the difference? Nothing. *And they're taking it highly civilized way of life. Where you are going? You cannot go beyond this earth. You attempted so much to go to the moon planet, you failed. And where you can go, put*-put-put-put ? You'll have to stay here. But that rascal does not understand. He thinks, "I am going very fast." Where you are going? You are destined to stay here. That he does not understand. Not only this put-put motorcycle, the put-put airplane also. They're also trying to go to this planet around, round. That sputnik, first sputnik, eighteen thousand miles, and they simply rounded over the world in one hour and twenty-five minutes. And where did you go? And when he's tired, then come down again. They cannot understand, these so-called scientists, that we cannot go in this way. There is higher authority. Why it will allow us to go anywhere? Just like the horse running fast, but within the racecourse. That's all. It cannot go beyond the racecourse. And similarly, however heroic expedition we may show, you are, what is called, baddha-jīva , conditioned. You cannot cross the condition. That is not possible. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate ( BG 3.27). A rascal, on account of his false prestige, he is thinking, "Oh, I am independent. I can do whatever I like." Vimūḍhātmā , foolish, rascal. Mūḍha , not— vimūḍhātmā , "especially the rascal, a special rascal." Ordinary rascal is better than the special rascal. (laughs) So all these scientists, philosophers and political leaders, they're all special rascal, they are. Vimūḍha . Ordinary man, they're simply rascal, and these rascals are special rascals. *Vimūḍhā nānupaśyanti paśyanti jñāna*-cakṣuṣaḥ (BG 15.10). Hmm. Hmm. So don't be vimūḍhas . Better remain mūḍha , not special rascal. (end) Conversation -- April 27, 1976, Auckland *Yeah, he's floating around somewhere doing nonsense. Now he's eating meat. (Prabhupāda chuckles) And this one boy in Fiji wrote me a letter. His friend worked at the hotel, Guru Maharaj*-ji came and stayed there, and he was a waiter. For dinner, Guru Maharaj-ji had shrimp curry and then beer. Drinking, eating meat and having illicit sex. It's his līlā . Complete nonsense. How does he keep followers? So followers are like that? Yes. Like guru , like celā . It's a very cheap thing. Very much they're moving on the group spirit. Hmm? It's just a personality cult, with no philosophy. Social club. Śrīla Prabhupāda, for the abhiṣeka , do we require cow urine and cow dung and tail of cow? Is it . . . If available. Not? Yes, we can get it. It's available. They're feeling threatened by our kīrtana parties. Who? He said that some of the town councils are trying to pass laws against our chanting in the streets. The Christians are behind it in Whangarei. So, can they pass such law? I don't think so. We're having . . . some of our men are going to meet with the council the day after tomorrow at the meeting. They're open to our side. The reason is that the businessmen have complained. Some of the businessmen have complained. Not all of them. You take some signature from other businessmen. Yes, all right. You present that. Yes. The men who are going to speak are businessmen, devotees. One is an architect. Then he can organize so many signatures. One is a restaurant owner, and one has a hairdressing salon. And they're going to speak . . . Everyone likes; that's a fact. We gave the argument before that they say it is a disturbance, but there are so many cars and airplanes which are making disturbance. They should also be stopped. Last week we wrote letters to the newspaper, and they published them, showing our view. And in Whangarei . . . it's another city, a hundred miles from here. It's near the farm, up north, and the devotees chant there. And the businessmen complained. And the devotees wrote a letter criticizing the materialistic businessmen, and that they didn't care for the people, only they wanted money. And they printed it this big in the newspaper, completely criticizing, and the people liked it. They put it in, everything, word for word what the devotees said. So it was good. So there is agitation against chanting, that is also good. It means it's effective. Yes, "Hare Kṛṣṇa is bad." (laughs) They don't want to be bothered with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Huh? They don't want to be bothered with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on with their hellish life. So we want that. Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa somehow or other. (devotees laugh) "We don't want to be bothered by Hare Kṛṣṇa," that means chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Because our kīrtana party now, we have . . . we go on kīrtana , eighty men. We go two nights a week with eighty men. Huge kīrtana with five mṛdaṅgas and guitars, and we get huge crowd from the whole street. That will make you triumphant. Go on kīrtana . That is very nice. Kīrtana and book distribution. This is also kīrtana . This is bṛhad mṛdaṅga . Yes. So do it enthusiastically. Keep yourself pure. Nobody will be able to do any harm to you. Kṛṣṇa will give you protection. So? (break) Eight crores. Didn't he say eighty crores? One crore means ten million. Rupees. Such eight. Eighty million rupees. Yes. That's a million dollars. Yes. Eight million dollars. Now it will be tested how much money we have got. (Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa laughs) Ghee is cheaper in New Zealand than in Australia. Anyway, first of all arrange for selling. I've already sent off the letter. *And you can disvertise it from New Zealand or from Australia. There can be very peaceful condition of the whole world. Simply mismanaged by the rascal leaders. Otherwise, people can live very peacefully, eat sumptuously, save time, and there is no necessity of stopping the, I mean to say, bare necessities of life. There is arrangement for eating, sleeping, sex life also. But not like fools and rascals. Like sane man. But this modern civilization, it is insane, crazy civilization. There is a little pleasure in sex life—simply sex life, increase sex life, spoiling everything. That is crazy. Eating—eat anything, any nonsense thing, and become a hog. Sleeping—oḥ, there is no limit, twenty*-four-hours sleeping if it is possible. Go on, this is going on. Eating, sleeping, mating. And defense—and discover atomic weapon, this weapon, that weapon, and kill innocent persons, unnecessarily, defense. This is going on. *But everything can be used properly for peaceful condition, and when you become peaceful, no disturbance, then you can very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and your life becomes successful. This is our program. We don't want to stop anything. How it can be stopped? Whatever is the bare neces . . . just like we have taken sannyāsa . What is that? "Oh, we have no sex life only. Otherwise, we are also eating, we are also sleeping." So that is also stopped in good old age. In old age, if a person like me, at the age of eighty years, if I would have shopped for sex life, does it look very good? Young men, they are allowed. That's all right. But a young . . . old man is going to the club and spending for sex life so much money. Therefore younger generation, they're allowed gṛhastha life from twenty*-five years to fifty years. That's all. After that, stop sex life. Actually, they want to stop population. Then why it, sex, then? No, they'll have sex life, at the same time, no population, kill the children. What is that? Simply sinful life. They will suffer, continue to suffer. So we want to stop that suffering. These rascals, they do not understand. They think, "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is disturbing." A rascal civilization. So let us try our best. What can be done? You are also helping in this movement. So don't spoil the movement by manufacturing ideas. Don't do that. Go on in the standard way, keep yourself pure; *then movement is sure to be successful. But if you want to spoil it by whimsical, then what can be done? It will be spoiled. If you manufacture whims and disagree and fight amongst yourself, then it will be another edition of these so*-called movements. It will lose the spiritual strength. Always remember it. You cannot . . . now, actually, people are surprised: "What this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra has got power that it is changing so quickly?" And on the other hand, it is to be admitted, unless it has got power, how it is changing? So we have to keep that power. Don't make it an ordinary musical vibration. It is a different thing—spiritual. Although it seems like musical vibration, but it is spiritual, completely. mantrauśadhi-vaśa . Even, by mantra , the snakes can be charmed. So mantra is not ordinary sound vibration. So we have to keep the mantra in potency, potent, by offenseless chanting, by remaining pure. If you pollute the mantra , then it will lose its effect. Hmm. (to other devotees) Today you'll be giving that lakṣmī in the morning? Because we can take our passports and go to the bank. And you can change some more at the airport when you leave. You have to have your passport. At the airport, yes. At the bank. *You have to bring the airplane ticket, too. (indistinct discussion of money matters) So concerning the temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I talked to some boys, and the one boy, Dhūmiya, he used to be in Australia, he made a fifteen*-foot-high Lord Caitanya. Do you remember at the Ratha-yātrā? Hmm. Hmm. And we're going to build a temple with nice domes, Indian style, and with sculpture like the elephant heads . . . Make in Vṛndāvana style. Yes. I'll get pictures of the different . . . There is that big dome and . . . you have seen Vṛndāvana? I have seen it just before it was finished, not since it was completed. Oh. But I've seen pictures. I think we have got pictures. And the place where we're going to put it, you'll be able to see it for miles. It'll be a landmark. That's nice. You can see it for many miles. Not only one; *you hundreds of temples construct. Village to village, town to . . . at the same time, men. And it will revolutionize the whole rascal situation. At the present moment, it is rascal situation. They're simply satisfied by driving the motor . . . put*-put-put-put-put-put-put-put-put! (Prabhupāda makes the sound of a fast motor) They are thinking, "Oh, how highly I am situated." All crazy. But this has been taught to them that, "This is civilization. If you have got a motorcycle and you can come like the wild cat, (all laugh) then you are civilized." They are thinking how great civilized they are; *we are thinking how wild cat he is. And what is the difference between wild cat and running dog and this motorcycle, put*-put ? What is the difference? Nothing. *And they're taking it highly civilized way of life. Where you are going? You cannot go beyond this earth. You attempted so much to go to the moon planet, you failed. And where you can go, put*-put-put-put ? You'll have to stay here. But that rascal does not understand. He thinks, "I am going very fast." Where you are going? You are destined to stay here. That he does not understand. Not only this put-put motorcycle, the put-put airplane also. They're also trying to go to this planet around, round. That sputnik, first sputnik, eighteen thousand miles, and they simply rounded over the world in one hour and twenty-five minutes. And where did you go? And when he's tired, then come down again. They cannot understand, these so-called scientists, that we cannot go in this way. There is higher authority. Why it will allow us to go anywhere? Just like the horse running fast, but within the racecourse. That's all. It cannot go beyond the racecourse. And similarly, however heroic expedition we may show, you are, what is called, baddha-jīva , conditioned. You cannot cross the condition. That is not possible. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate ( BG 3.27). A rascal, on account of his false prestige, he is thinking, "Oh, I am independent. I can do whatever I like." Vimūḍhātmā , foolish, rascal. Mūḍha , not— vimūḍhātmā , "especially the rascal, a special rascal." Ordinary rascal is better than the special rascal. (laughs) So all these scientists, philosophers and political leaders, they're all special rascal, they are. Vimūḍha . Ordinary man, they're simply rascal, and these rascals are special rascals. *Vimūḍhā nānupaśyanti paśyanti jñāna*-cakṣuṣaḥ (BG 15.10). Hmm. Hmm. So don't be vimūḍhas . Better remain mūḍha , not special rascal. (end) Conversation -- April 30, 1976, Fiji . . . therefore he very intelligently appointed Kṛṣṇa as his spiritual master. Because everyone is in perplexity about the problem of life. So this very thing happened to Arjuna, and he wanted to go to spiritual master for solution. And the supreme spiritual master was present before him; *therefore he submitted: śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam ( BG 2.7). Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ . . . *Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma*-saṁmūḍha-cetāḥ, yac chreyaḥ syān niścitaṁ brūhi tan me . Yac chreyaḥ syāt . . . yac chreyaḥ syāt tat brūhi me niścitam. So the spiritual master's duty is how to benefit the disciple, śreyaḥ . What is the translation? "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me." *Yes. That is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā . So because he accepted discipleship, so He immediately chastised him, that "You rascal, you are talking like a very learned man, but you are on the platform of bodily conception of life, the platform of the animals." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). Anyone who accepts this body as self, he's animal. He's not even a human being. So the whole world is on this bodily concept of life. That is going on, "American," "European," "Hindu," "Muslim," "black," "white," this, that. They do not know what is education. That is the first education, that "You rascal, you are not this body. You are within the body." So who understands this? And they're declaring that "We are student of Bhagavad-gītā . We have studied Bhagavad-gītā ." Hmm? Even Gandhi, he takes photograph with Bhagavad-gītā , but his fighting is for nationalism. The others are doing that. So what is the use of taking Bhagavad-gītā ? The Pakistanis are also doing that. But you have taken Bhagavad-gītā , you are doing the same work. So what is your credit? This is going on. So nobody is learning Bhagavad-gītā . It is first time that we are teaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Otherwise, everyone is misled. The subject matter is that the soul is different from this body. The karmīs will argue that "I am not ready to hear this yet." Huh? The karmīs will argue, "I am not ready to hear this yet." Many people, they come and they hear this philosophy, they say: "Very nice. But I am not ready for it yet." *But why you have come here, to hear Bhagavad*-gītā ? Why you have come? Generally, they come to take nice prasādam . *All right, that is also kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. Prasādam means we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa; *then it is prasādam . So you have not come, but you have to come to take prasādam . This, it has got connection with Kṛṣṇa. So therefore we welcome you that at least for eating, you are coming to Kṛṣṇa. Gradually you'll understand Kṛṣṇa, by eating only. Kṛṣṇa is not so easy to be understood, but we are giving you facility to eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam so that one day you can understand Kṛṣṇa, this is the policy. Actually, that is the policy. We are not poor-feeding. That is not our philosophy, like Vivekananda, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. No, we are not after that. We are giving you prasādam . And that is fact, that by eating, eating, eating, eating, you one day will become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Simply by eating. Because you are so dull, you cannot understand the philosophy. You know the belly like the animals. So therefore we are giving facility, 'All right, fill up your belly, fill up your belly, and you'll be infected'. As you take foodstuff from a infected area, you become infected with some disease, so this is Kṛṣṇa infected, prasādam . You take it, and one day you'll be diseased with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and that is a fact. Somehow or other let him come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. He'll be benefited. Somehow or other, let him come to the light. May be dim light or very big light. Light is light. So if anyone understands that there is a soul which is conducting the business of this body, then he can very easily understand that there is a Supersoul who is conducting the business of the whole material manifested world. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). If he's convinced this body is useless, a lump of matter only, but the soul is the prime factor, similarly, he'll very easily understand that there is huge, gigantic material body of earth, water, air, fire, sky, they are working so wonderfully on account of the Supersoul. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā : athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna . Find out this verse. Chapter 10, verse forty . . . verse 42. Athavā bahunaitena . The Twelfth Chapter. Chapter 10, verse 42. No? (devotee takes a long time to find verse) One should practice to open this very quickly. "But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe." Read it carefully. As the small soul has entered . . . dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). This is also a small universe. The same elements are working, but the soul is the prime factor. Similarly, this gigantic body. Athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena . . . viṣṭabhya aham idaṁ kṛtsnam. "The kṛtsnam , the total material energy, millions of universes like that, that is being maintained by Me because I have entered in it in My fragmental portion." Same principle. As I, the individual soul, I am . . . because I have entered this body, the body is working so nicely. It looks beautiful; *it looks fresh. It is machine. The machine is working very nicely so long the pilot or the driver is there. Similarly, where is the difficulty to understand this universal affair? If we accept the same principle that, "I am a small fragmental portion of Kṛṣṇa. I have entered this body. This body is working so nicely. Similarly, because Kṛṣṇa has entered as Mahā*-Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, therefore it is working." Kṛṣṇa also says, gām āviśya ca bhūtāni (BG 15.13). *Yes. There are so many verses. Another verse is mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ (BG 9.10). "The prakṛti is not important. Material energy is not important. My supervision is important." Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ (BS 5.52). The sun is rising and setting by whose order? Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam aham . . . this is to be understood. And if one understands that because the soul is there within the body, therefore the body is working so wonderfully, then he can very easily understand there must be a soul of this universe. How he can deny it? How he can say that it is working automatically? There is no such experience, working automatically. I have given several times the example: the 747, wonderful aeroplane machine, but that is not important. The important is the pilot who is pushing the button and it is, in such big sky, it will stay balanced; *in balance it is flying in six*-hundred-miles speed, onh-onh-onh-onhh (imitates sound of plane engine). And as soon a little . . . finished. So it is a fact. Why the security checking? Because sometimes these, what is that, hi . . . hi . . .? Highjackers. Highjacks, they attack the pilot. They're not attacking the passengers. (break) (end) Conversation -- April 30, 1976, Fiji . . . therefore he very intelligently appointed Kṛṣṇa as his spiritual master. Because everyone is in perplexity about the problem of life. So this very thing happened to Arjuna, and he wanted to go to spiritual master for solution. And the supreme spiritual master was present before him; *therefore he submitted: śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam ( BG 2.7). Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ . . . *Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma*-saṁmūḍha-cetāḥ, yac chreyaḥ syān niścitaṁ brūhi tan me . Yac chreyaḥ syāt . . . yac chreyaḥ syāt tat brūhi me niścitam. So the spiritual master's duty is how to benefit the disciple, śreyaḥ . What is the translation? "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me." *Yes. That is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā . So because he accepted discipleship, so He immediately chastised him, that "You rascal, you are talking like a very learned man, but you are on the platform of bodily conception of life, the platform of the animals." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). Anyone who accepts this body as self, he's animal. He's not even a human being. So the whole world is on this bodily concept of life. That is going on, "American," "European," "Hindu," "Muslim," "black," "white," this, that. They do not know what is education. That is the first education, that "You rascal, you are not this body. You are within the body." So who understands this? And they're declaring that "We are student of Bhagavad-gītā . We have studied Bhagavad-gītā ." Hmm? Even Gandhi, he takes photograph with Bhagavad-gītā , but his fighting is for nationalism. The others are doing that. So what is the use of taking Bhagavad-gītā ? The Pakistanis are also doing that. But you have taken Bhagavad-gītā , you are doing the same work. So what is your credit? This is going on. So nobody is learning Bhagavad-gītā . It is first time that we are teaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Otherwise, everyone is misled. The subject matter is that the soul is different from this body. The karmīs will argue that "I am not ready to hear this yet." Huh? The karmīs will argue, "I am not ready to hear this yet." Many people, they come and they hear this philosophy, they say: "Very nice. But I am not ready for it yet." *But why you have come here, to hear Bhagavad*-gītā ? Why you have come? Generally, they come to take nice prasādam . *All right, that is also kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. Prasādam means we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa; *then it is prasādam . So you have not come, but you have to come to take prasādam . This, it has got connection with Kṛṣṇa. So therefore we welcome you that at least for eating, you are coming to Kṛṣṇa. Gradually you'll understand Kṛṣṇa, by eating only. Kṛṣṇa is not so easy to be understood, but we are giving you facility to eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam so that one day you can understand Kṛṣṇa, this is the policy. Actually, that is the policy. We are not poor-feeding. That is not our philosophy, like Vivekananda, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. No, we are not after that. We are giving you prasādam . And that is fact, that by eating, eating, eating, eating, you one day will become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Simply by eating. Because you are so dull, you cannot understand the philosophy. You know the belly like the animals. So therefore we are giving facility, 'All right, fill up your belly, fill up your belly, and you'll be infected'. As you take foodstuff from a infected area, you become infected with some disease, so this is Kṛṣṇa infected, prasādam . You take it, and one day you'll be diseased with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and that is a fact. Somehow or other let him come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. He'll be benefited. Somehow or other, let him come to the light. May be dim light or very big light. Light is light. So if anyone understands that there is a soul which is conducting the business of this body, then he can very easily understand that there is a Supersoul who is conducting the business of the whole material manifested world. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). If he's convinced this body is useless, a lump of matter only, but the soul is the prime factor, similarly, he'll very easily understand that there is huge, gigantic material body of earth, water, air, fire, sky, they are working so wonderfully on account of the Supersoul. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā : athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna . Find out this verse. Chapter 10, verse forty . . . verse 42. Athavā bahunaitena . The Twelfth Chapter. Chapter 10, verse 42. No? (devotee takes a long time to find verse) One should practice to open this very quickly. "But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe." Read it carefully. As the small soul has entered . . . dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). This is also a small universe. The same elements are working, but the soul is the prime factor. Similarly, this gigantic body. Athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena . . . viṣṭabhya aham idaṁ kṛtsnam. "The kṛtsnam , the total material energy, millions of universes like that, that is being maintained by Me because I have entered in it in My fragmental portion." Same principle. As I, the individual soul, I am . . . because I have entered this body, the body is working so nicely. It looks beautiful; *it looks fresh. It is machine. The machine is working very nicely so long the pilot or the driver is there. Similarly, where is the difficulty to understand this universal affair? If we accept the same principle that, "I am a small fragmental portion of Kṛṣṇa. I have entered this body. This body is working so nicely. Similarly, because Kṛṣṇa has entered as Mahā*-Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, therefore it is working." Kṛṣṇa also says, gām āviśya ca bhūtāni (BG 15.13). *Yes. There are so many verses. Another verse is mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ (BG 9.10). "The prakṛti is not important. Material energy is not important. My supervision is important." Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ (BS 5.52). The sun is rising and setting by whose order? Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam aham . . . this is to be understood. And if one understands that because the soul is there within the body, therefore the body is working so wonderfully, then he can very easily understand there must be a soul of this universe. How he can deny it? How he can say that it is working automatically? There is no such experience, working automatically. I have given several times the example: the 747, wonderful aeroplane machine, but that is not important. The important is the pilot who is pushing the button and it is, in such big sky, it will stay balanced; *in balance it is flying in six*-hundred-miles speed, onh-onh-onh-onhh (imitates sound of plane engine). And as soon a little . . . finished. So it is a fact. Why the security checking? Because sometimes these, what is that, hi . . . hi . . .? Highjackers. Highjacks, they attack the pilot. They're not attacking the passengers. (break) (end) Conversation -- May 1, 1976, Fiji . . . the Lord then said, uska jabāb " Bhagavān diyā ". This . . . (break) *Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke ( BG 15.7). "The living entities in this conditional world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind." *So with this instrument he's manipulating this machine, as exactly the pilot, with so many electronics, machine, he's working the flying of the plane. Where is the difficulty to understand? And this is . . . body is a machine. Bhrāmayan sarva*-bhū . . . (BG 18.61). Bhrāmayan , wandering. The aeroplane is wandering. This machine is wandering. It is also going, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ, sometimes up, sometimes down. Huh? Find out this. (discussion as devotees look for verse) Same aeroplane, going up and down. Two wings, this hand, like this. "Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds." *So same thing: if the pilot is not expert, then goes down to the lowest, finished. Adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ . If the pilot is third class, instead of going up, he goes down, and everything is spoiled. So everything on the pilot. The machine is not important. The machine can go up if the pilot knows how to do it. And the machine can go down. Actually, it is happening. This landing point is very dangerous. If the pilot cannot handle very nicely, immediately smashed. The crash takes place while going up and coming down, generally. That is due to mismanagement of the pilot. When in the sky it is regular speed and balance, it is going nicely. There is no crisis. All crisis take place while coming down and going up, leaving the land and coming the land. I have seen sometimes, they clap as soon as they . . . (Prabhupāda claps his hands) (laughter) "The danger is over." So ūrdhvam and adhaḥ. Madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ. So in this way, you have to place the subject matter, that the living entity, the soul, is the important thing within this body. Because he's struggling. On account of his ignorance, he's struggling. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). This is his position. You mentioned earlier that not only we have to find out who is the speaker, but who is the proper person to hear the subject matter. *Yes. If somebody is interested to know what is the important thing, then he can understand this. And if he's animal, simply eating, sleeping, mating, what he will understand? Animal is not interested to know how the world is going on. He gets his food and sex. That's all. That is animal propensity. And as soon as he comes to the human platform, then inquisitive: " Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa*-traya ," Sanātana Gosvāmī. He's not interested, "How I shall develop my economic position?" He has left already a very high-grade economic position. He's not interested. He's interested, " Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya (CC Madhya 20.102), actually what is my position? Why I am suffering in this material atmosphere?" That is human life. Arjuna asks also many questions. *Oh, yes. Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata. Kārpaṇya-doṣa (BG 2.7). "It was my duty to understand myself, and I am thinking of my these nonsense relatives—my grandfather, my son. What is this? I know that. What I can do by thinking about them? It may be they have come to war. But suppose they would have died naturally—what could I do? So why I am perplexed with these things? I know the defect. I cannot cause their death or birth or existence. It is beyond my jurisdiction. And still, I am anxious—if I kill them, then what would happen? What would happen?" "You kill or not kill, they'll be killed—today or tomorrow." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ (BG 2.11). A learned man knows that the body will be finished, the bodily action, today or tomorrow. So what is to lament after this body? Lamentation is that the person within the body, whether he's going to hell or heaven. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti or tamo gacchanti . That is real concern. Body will be finished, today or tomorrow or after a hundred years. Who can protect it? But one should be interested with the owner of the body, where he is going, what is his next position. And that is clearly stated: adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). So you are interested to go up or down or remain in the same status. There are three status: up, down and the same. General mass of people think that life is finished with this body. They're unaware of up or down . . . *Therefore . . . therefore, they're rascals. And for the rascals, the Bhagavad*-gītā teaching is there. Learn! They are giving the stress on the body that, "The body is finished, everything finished." They do not know beyond the body. But the real knowledge begins, "No, you are beyond this body." That is real knowledge. That is the beginning of knowledge. Any other knowledge except this, that is ignorance; that is not knowledge. They are accepting ignorance as knowledge. Yes. *That is the defect. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so essential. They are accepting ignorance as knowledge. Darwin's theory, it is simply speculation on ignorance, and it has been taken as knowledge. Freud's philosophy is the business of the hogs and dogs, and it has been taken as philosophy. Even the hogs and dogs know how to enjoy sex life. And they are . . . on account of sex life, they have written a philosophy. Is that philosophy? Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Find out. The Thirteenth Chapter. Hmm? (discussion as devotees look for verse) Hmm? Another line? Find out amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntiḥ (BG 13.8), Thirteenth Chapter. *Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam . Anyathā . These rascals, they're in ajñānam , dealing with sex life, dealing with the body as their philosophy, science. Dealing with the body and dealing with sex life is the animal business, and they are passing on as philosopher, scientist. This is their position, the whole world. So how much Kṛṣṇa consciousness is important, just imagine. The goal of knowledge is not there. They do not know. And animals . . . therefore they are animals. What the dogs will understand? When there is one lady dog, one dozen dog will come, smelling the best part of the body. This is their philosophy. So Freud is that: best part of the body, he's writing philosophy. Books and books. (laughs) Just see. This is the position. How low taste—hogs' and pigs' business, and write philosophy. His books are selling like anything. (pause) You mentioned, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if someone can understand that they're not this body, then immediately he should be able to understand that there's a Supersoul. Yes, that I have already told just now. Therefore it is very essential to understand. So the approach used by Kṛṣṇa is essential for any person who wants to understand the Supersoul? Hmm? Someone in material consciousness cannot understand God? So then what of all these religions, for example Muslim and Christian religion? Generally speaking, they don't even accept the existence of soul. Therefore they're not religion. They're cheating. (aside to Hari-śauri) Ice box. This is not religion, this is cheating. So simply they're talking about God? Yes. What is this? This is ḍāb juice, Śrīla Prabhupāda. No, no, no, you can keep that. Simply . . . actually, there is no religion. In the name of religion, some farce is going on. That's a fact. You've said in the past, "Devil citing scripture." *Yes. They're eating meat means they have no even human sense. What is that religion? They have no even sense that, "I am cutting throat of one poor animal under my protection. If somebody cuts my throat, how much I am unhappy? And I'm doing the same business, and I'm human being? How can I call myself a human? I have no sense even of compassion." Cats and dogs are passing on as religionists. Some hogs and pigs are going on as philosopher. And other animals is going as scientist, Darwin. They're animals only—cats and dogs. They are the leader of the society. How you can expect any benefit from them? The leaders themselves are cats and dogs, pigs. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). These leaders, they are saṁstutaḥ , they are very much worshiped. By whom? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ . By the dogs, by the pigs, by the . . . śva-viḍ-varāha , camel, and by the ass. Because these particular names, I have explained in the Bhāgavata . So suppose one man has become lion, and he's praised by dogs, camels, asses and pigs. Naturally, they will praise, "Oh, sir, you are the king." Does it mean he's king? He's animal. So it is going on. They are electing a big animal as president. And when he begins to eat, animal, big animal, then they protest, "Oh, now he's not proper president. Get him down, get him down." But why you sent him? "Because we are pigs. We have no other knowledge. We another . . . appoint another big pig as our president." *So everything is explained in the Vedic literature. If you can present them properly, it will act. The voters are śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara. And the president is another big animal. That's all. This is transaction of animal kingdom. A lion is the king of some asses, pigs, dogs and hogs. What business you can expect there? This is their real picture. One who is a human being, he's seeing that how the animals are enjoying by voting and electing president. But they are thinking, "We are busy in a very great business. We are electing president." (laughter) This is going on. (break) . . . and you say that these rascal pigs, hogs, they elected president, and this president will eat them, and they will understand what kind of president they have elected. This thing is happening in the most advanced country of USA, and what to speak of other animal kingdoms. Even the topmost state at the present moment, there also is happening the same thing. And what to speak of other small states. *If bhakti*-yoga is the . . . one can only understand Kṛṣṇa through bhakti-yoga , why did Kṛṣṇa bother to explain karma-yoga and jñāna-yoga through so many . . . *Because there are third*-class men, fourth-class men. They cannot understand bhakti-yoga immediately. But at last He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), if you are intelligent. Sarva-guhyatam . "Real knowledge is here." Sarva-guhyatamam . But He's proposing at last, "If by understanding all other ways, if he has come to know what is the actual knowledge . . ." that is the most confidential knowledge. That is not for everyone. How one can give up karma-yoga , jñāna-yoga , dhyāna-yoga ? They cannot. But Kṛṣṇa says, "This is the most confidential. If you accept this, then it is to be understood you have knowledge." It is not for everyone. Find out this verse. Sixty-three, Eighteenth Chapter, I think. So take these notes, take these books and preach. You have taken all, sannyāsa . You preach. "Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you . . ." It is to be spoken to the most confidential person. "You are My dear friend; I am talking." Other rascals will not understand. It is especially for Arjuna, not for the common man. ". . . I am speaking to you this most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit." "That is special friendship and special love; so I give you this. Keep it confidential." This is real. Other rascals will not value this. They will protest, "Huh? Why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa?" So what is that confidential? *Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). *Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). "So we have spoken so many other things for other rascals. But you are My friend, very intimate. I tell you, this is real fact." So fact is fact. If you take earlier or later, that is different thing. You have to come. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). One has to take many births before coming to this understanding. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . So everyone is not mahātmā even, what to speak of sudurlabhaḥ . (laughs) (end) Conversation -- May 1, 1976, Fiji . . . the Lord then said, uska jabāb " Bhagavān diyā ". This . . . (break) *Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke ( BG 15.7). "The living entities in this conditional world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind." *So with this instrument he's manipulating this machine, as exactly the pilot, with so many electronics, machine, he's working the flying of the plane. Where is the difficulty to understand? And this is . . . body is a machine. Bhrāmayan sarva*-bhū . . . (BG 18.61). Bhrāmayan , wandering. The aeroplane is wandering. This machine is wandering. It is also going, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ, sometimes up, sometimes down. Huh? Find out this. (discussion as devotees look for verse) Same aeroplane, going up and down. Two wings, this hand, like this. "Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds." *So same thing: if the pilot is not expert, then goes down to the lowest, finished. Adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ . If the pilot is third class, instead of going up, he goes down, and everything is spoiled. So everything on the pilot. The machine is not important. The machine can go up if the pilot knows how to do it. And the machine can go down. Actually, it is happening. This landing point is very dangerous. If the pilot cannot handle very nicely, immediately smashed. The crash takes place while going up and coming down, generally. That is due to mismanagement of the pilot. When in the sky it is regular speed and balance, it is going nicely. There is no crisis. All crisis take place while coming down and going up, leaving the land and coming the land. I have seen sometimes, they clap as soon as they . . . (Prabhupāda claps his hands) (laughter) "The danger is over." So ūrdhvam and adhaḥ. Madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ. So in this way, you have to place the subject matter, that the living entity, the soul, is the important thing within this body. Because he's struggling. On account of his ignorance, he's struggling. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). This is his position. You mentioned earlier that not only we have to find out who is the speaker, but who is the proper person to hear the subject matter. *Yes. If somebody is interested to know what is the important thing, then he can understand this. And if he's animal, simply eating, sleeping, mating, what he will understand? Animal is not interested to know how the world is going on. He gets his food and sex. That's all. That is animal propensity. And as soon as he comes to the human platform, then inquisitive: " Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa*-traya ," Sanātana Gosvāmī. He's not interested, "How I shall develop my economic position?" He has left already a very high-grade economic position. He's not interested. He's interested, " Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya (CC Madhya 20.102), actually what is my position? Why I am suffering in this material atmosphere?" That is human life. Arjuna asks also many questions. *Oh, yes. Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata. Kārpaṇya-doṣa (BG 2.7). "It was my duty to understand myself, and I am thinking of my these nonsense relatives—my grandfather, my son. What is this? I know that. What I can do by thinking about them? It may be they have come to war. But suppose they would have died naturally—what could I do? So why I am perplexed with these things? I know the defect. I cannot cause their death or birth or existence. It is beyond my jurisdiction. And still, I am anxious—if I kill them, then what would happen? What would happen?" "You kill or not kill, they'll be killed—today or tomorrow." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ (BG 2.11). A learned man knows that the body will be finished, the bodily action, today or tomorrow. So what is to lament after this body? Lamentation is that the person within the body, whether he's going to hell or heaven. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti or tamo gacchanti . That is real concern. Body will be finished, today or tomorrow or after a hundred years. Who can protect it? But one should be interested with the owner of the body, where he is going, what is his next position. And that is clearly stated: adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). So you are interested to go up or down or remain in the same status. There are three status: up, down and the same. General mass of people think that life is finished with this body. They're unaware of up or down . . . *Therefore . . . therefore, they're rascals. And for the rascals, the Bhagavad*-gītā teaching is there. Learn! They are giving the stress on the body that, "The body is finished, everything finished." They do not know beyond the body. But the real knowledge begins, "No, you are beyond this body." That is real knowledge. That is the beginning of knowledge. Any other knowledge except this, that is ignorance; that is not knowledge. They are accepting ignorance as knowledge. Yes. *That is the defect. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so essential. They are accepting ignorance as knowledge. Darwin's theory, it is simply speculation on ignorance, and it has been taken as knowledge. Freud's philosophy is the business of the hogs and dogs, and it has been taken as philosophy. Even the hogs and dogs know how to enjoy sex life. And they are . . . on account of sex life, they have written a philosophy. Is that philosophy? Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Find out. The Thirteenth Chapter. Hmm? (discussion as devotees look for verse) Hmm? Another line? Find out amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntiḥ (BG 13.8), Thirteenth Chapter. *Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam . Anyathā . These rascals, they're in ajñānam , dealing with sex life, dealing with the body as their philosophy, science. Dealing with the body and dealing with sex life is the animal business, and they are passing on as philosopher, scientist. This is their position, the whole world. So how much Kṛṣṇa consciousness is important, just imagine. The goal of knowledge is not there. They do not know. And animals . . . therefore they are animals. What the dogs will understand? When there is one lady dog, one dozen dog will come, smelling the best part of the body. This is their philosophy. So Freud is that: best part of the body, he's writing philosophy. Books and books. (laughs) Just see. This is the position. How low taste—hogs' and pigs' business, and write philosophy. His books are selling like anything. (pause) You mentioned, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if someone can understand that they're not this body, then immediately he should be able to understand that there's a Supersoul. Yes, that I have already told just now. Therefore it is very essential to understand. So the approach used by Kṛṣṇa is essential for any person who wants to understand the Supersoul? Hmm? Someone in material consciousness cannot understand God? So then what of all these religions, for example Muslim and Christian religion? Generally speaking, they don't even accept the existence of soul. Therefore they're not religion. They're cheating. (aside to Hari-śauri) Ice box. This is not religion, this is cheating. So simply they're talking about God? Yes. What is this? This is ḍāb juice, Śrīla Prabhupāda. No, no, no, you can keep that. Simply . . . actually, there is no religion. In the name of religion, some farce is going on. That's a fact. You've said in the past, "Devil citing scripture." *Yes. They're eating meat means they have no even human sense. What is that religion? They have no even sense that, "I am cutting throat of one poor animal under my protection. If somebody cuts my throat, how much I am unhappy? And I'm doing the same business, and I'm human being? How can I call myself a human? I have no sense even of compassion." Cats and dogs are passing on as religionists. Some hogs and pigs are going on as philosopher. And other animals is going as scientist, Darwin. They're animals only—cats and dogs. They are the leader of the society. How you can expect any benefit from them? The leaders themselves are cats and dogs, pigs. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). These leaders, they are saṁstutaḥ , they are very much worshiped. By whom? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ . By the dogs, by the pigs, by the . . . śva-viḍ-varāha , camel, and by the ass. Because these particular names, I have explained in the Bhāgavata . So suppose one man has become lion, and he's praised by dogs, camels, asses and pigs. Naturally, they will praise, "Oh, sir, you are the king." Does it mean he's king? He's animal. So it is going on. They are electing a big animal as president. And when he begins to eat, animal, big animal, then they protest, "Oh, now he's not proper president. Get him down, get him down." But why you sent him? "Because we are pigs. We have no other knowledge. We another . . . appoint another big pig as our president." *So everything is explained in the Vedic literature. If you can present them properly, it will act. The voters are śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara. And the president is another big animal. That's all. This is transaction of animal kingdom. A lion is the king of some asses, pigs, dogs and hogs. What business you can expect there? This is their real picture. One who is a human being, he's seeing that how the animals are enjoying by voting and electing president. But they are thinking, "We are busy in a very great business. We are electing president." (laughter) This is going on. (break) . . . and you say that these rascal pigs, hogs, they elected president, and this president will eat them, and they will understand what kind of president they have elected. This thing is happening in the most advanced country of USA, and what to speak of other animal kingdoms. Even the topmost state at the present moment, there also is happening the same thing. And what to speak of other small states. *If bhakti*-yoga is the . . . one can only understand Kṛṣṇa through bhakti-yoga , why did Kṛṣṇa bother to explain karma-yoga and jñāna-yoga through so many . . . *Because there are third*-class men, fourth-class men. They cannot understand bhakti-yoga immediately. But at last He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), if you are intelligent. Sarva-guhyatam . "Real knowledge is here." Sarva-guhyatamam . But He's proposing at last, "If by understanding all other ways, if he has come to know what is the actual knowledge . . ." that is the most confidential knowledge. That is not for everyone. How one can give up karma-yoga , jñāna-yoga , dhyāna-yoga ? They cannot. But Kṛṣṇa says, "This is the most confidential. If you accept this, then it is to be understood you have knowledge." It is not for everyone. Find out this verse. Sixty-three, Eighteenth Chapter, I think. So take these notes, take these books and preach. You have taken all, sannyāsa . You preach. "Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you . . ." It is to be spoken to the most confidential person. "You are My dear friend; I am talking." Other rascals will not understand. It is especially for Arjuna, not for the common man. ". . . I am speaking to you this most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit." "That is special friendship and special love; so I give you this. Keep it confidential." This is real. Other rascals will not value this. They will protest, "Huh? Why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa?" So what is that confidential? *Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). *Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). "So we have spoken so many other things for other rascals. But you are My friend, very intimate. I tell you, this is real fact." So fact is fact. If you take earlier or later, that is different thing. You have to come. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). One has to take many births before coming to this understanding. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . So everyone is not mahātmā even, what to speak of sudurlabhaḥ . (laughs) (end) Conversation -- May 2, 1976, Fiji *That is the difficulty. Everyone sees that, "Some way or other, I become guru . Then so many persons will offer me respect. Somehow or other, create some situation. Then I become guru ." This is going on. Not bona fide guru . Bona fide guru is indicated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā : "Become guru ." Why ambition? Actually become guru . But how to become guru ? Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa ( CC Madhya 7.128). That's it, otherwise goru . So they will not take this simple method. They will drink, they will hunt after woman and have some attractive singing or dancing and become guru . What is meaning of guru , they do not know. Somehow or other become popular and become guru . This is going on. So with māyā you can attract these foolish rascals very easily, if you can manufacture. You cannot, but if you can show some jugglery, then you become guru . People are after all these things, material things. They are not after Kṛṣṇa. They are after money and women. So if you give some mantra , then gold will be manufactured, and all women will be attracted, very first class. You know, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that if anyone has power to induce anybody to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, therefore they must have some special power. Therefore that's their qualification. That special power, that is said in the śāstras . But people do not want that. Just like, for example, in Bengal before, there was that Charan das Babaji. He induced them to chant the wrong mantra , but where is . . . he's not specifically paramparā . *No. He chanted for some time and, of course, there was chanting of nitāi*-gaura. He introduced new system of chanting: nitāi-gaura rādhe-śyāma . So the nitāi-gaura chanting will have some effect, Kali-yuga. Although he was presenting pervertedly, the beginning was nitāi-gaura, so it would have some effect. He did not know actually Nitāi-Gaura, from his words, it appears. He used to preach that Nitāi is Rādhārāṇī, and Gaura is Kṛṣṇa. That is siddhānta-virodha . But some way or other, he was chanting nitāi-gaura. So some effect were there. Just like sandalwood. You do not know which way better pulp comes out, but if you rub any way some pulp will come, because it is sandalwood. So he had some effect of chanting nitāi-gaura , but later on they deteriorated because they did not know actually, neither they were taught. Siddhānta-virodha. The siddhānta-virodha means it will deteriorate; it will not endure. Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about, say, many of your Godbrothers? They also have disciples, and they also are properly initiated by a proper spiritual master, and they give the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . *The thing is the spirit, real service of preaching, stopped. Formality is going on, but the real business . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement means āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). That is stopped. Do you follow? The formalities is there, but the real life of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is preaching. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa ? Tāra means preach. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). And that is stopped. They are satisfied if they could construct one temple and beg some rice from the neighborhood: "Sir, we have got some temple." That's all. They are satisfied. The spirit of preaching forward— pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo —that is stopped. So by hari-nāma , by chanting, by this way, to live little peacefully in the temple and eat and sleep, that much they have got. If that is the success, that success they have got. And this was condemned by my Guru Mahārāja, that "To earn some money by showing Deity in the temple and eat and sleep—better you become a sweeper in the street and earn your honest livelihood and live." This is cheating. This was condemned. To construct a temple . . . just like the Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs are doing. They thought that "This is our business. Some innocent people will come here and offer some . . . bās , that's our good income." According to the temple's popularity, they think, "This is our success." Therefore they are deteriorating. So that is not success. Success is he is who is pushing forward the preaching method. That is his success. And if we think that "By showing a temple Deity we get some money and rice and cloth and just peacefully live here. Don't bother about going to Fiji and all over . . ." (laughs) That much success they have got. But that is not Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, sarvatra pracāra . (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126) What they are doing for that? That is point. What if sometimes a disciple, he may go to preach, but he's not preaching in the exact same spirit of his spiritual master? *Therefore he is not to be preached. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41): "Go to do good to others, first of all you do good to yourself." First of all you become really preacher. Then go to preach. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never sent neophyte to go to preach. For neophyte the preaching is not their business. For neophyte, one should stick to the worship of Deity in the temple. And those who have understood the philosophy, applied the philosophy in his life, he should go for preaching. Otherwise he'll preach wrongly, like . . . what is that? Charan das Babaji. And it will stop. He wanted to preach, but he did not know how to preach, and therefore, after his life, it is finished. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not say like that, that "You remain a rascal and go to preach." No. Janma sārthaka kari . "Your first business is that you make your life perfect. Then go to preach. 'Perfect' means you learn how to obey My orders." That is perfection. Āmāra ājñāya. So if you are actually, perfectly carrying out the orders of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then you are preaching. Otherwise you will do wrongly, mislead. Don't do that. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If you remain blind, don't try to lead other blind men. That is misleading. First of all open your eyes. Everything is there. Nobody can do anything whimsically. If you do whimsically, concoctedly, that will be failure. It will not be effective. Even though one may get many followers, that is not . . . *Many? What you . . .? Many followers . . . the philosophy you present, it must be followed by everyone. That is wanted. You have got, say, ten thousand followers. That does not mean success. Everyone has got some followers. This . . . what is that? Guru*-ji Maharaja. He has got also so-called followers. The T.M., he has got also some followers. Everyone has got some followers. But what kind of followers they have? That is quality. Everything has quality. Simply quantity is not. There are many Christians. Even up to date, some Christian fair or . . . many millions will come. What is the quality? Quality is all meat-eater. But Christian means he should not kill. Where is the Christian? So we have to test by the quality, followers. Not many followers; the quality of the followers. My Guru Mahārāja used to say like that, that "If I get at least one quality disciple, then all my labor will be success." He was saying like that: quality, not the quantity. By quantity if one is amazed, then he is also goru . By quality—what kind of followers? That is the . . . from the very beginning my strictures are there that, "You have to follow this"—quality. If I were . . . "No, you can do like Vivekananda. Yes, what you can, whatever you like," then I think quantity would have been very, very big. But I don't say. I make him promise before the fire, before the Deity, before guru . (break) *That one moon is taken into account. Who takes account of millions of stars? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). Quality. So we should be quality devotee, not quantity devotee. (drinking) Hmm. I have taken two glasses. Just see how nice water is, ḍāb (unripe coconut) water. Here so many ḍābs are available, and this rascal is manufacturing RC (Royal Crown cola), and he is going as to be . . . as business. And for hearing Bhagavad*-gītā they have no time, and they are trying to go to Vṛndāvana. Quantity, not quality. So civilization should be quality civilization, not quantity civilization. Do that. Bheḍyadāsana. Bheḍyadāsana. Bheḍī , lamb, they are going, hundreds and thousands flocks. So, and if one bheḍī , lamb, is somehow or other pushed into slaughterhouse stockroom, so all the . . . all of them. You haven't got to take many. Some way or other, you induce one of them to go into the, what is called, shed, where stocks are kept for taking out daily and killing. So they do not mind that "We are being pushed into this room for future killing. Never mind. One has gone. Go." They'll go. So this is called, in Hindi, bheḍyadāsana , that without any consideration, "One has entered. Let us all enter." That is bheḍī , means animal. Their disciple like this. (pause) They liked the ceremony? I think we should tell . . . Vāsudeva dāsa is getting his brahmin thread this afternoon? Eh? Are you giving him his brahmin initiation this afternoon? He has come? No. We can do that tomorrow. So it has been settled where we are going? Well, I have to go to the airport this evening. No, with Vāsudeva. Yes. He is . . . he thought it was best. Don't do anything . . . No, it was his suggestion, because he doesn't want it to be another small program. He feels . . . This is also cold water? It was. It's still cold. Darwin's theory is body is changing, but why it is changing, he does not explain. He said it's the course of nature. You can't explain nature. That's his only answer. Nature . . . but we also say, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). So it is to be understood that it is being done under superior control. If nature is doing, so nature is superior control. He cannot explain. So if he does not know how nature is working, then what is the value of his theory? If he says that he cannot explain how nature is doing, that means he is not expert. He may be mistaken. So why his opinion or decision should be taken final? He does not know how nature is working. That is not perfect knowledge. Does he say like that, "Nature is working"? Nature. *So how nature is working, he does not know. Then his knowledge is imperfect. Nature is working how, that we know. That is very sober understanding. We say that nature is working under the superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). Nature . . . we see nature. Generally we have got idea of the material nature, that the sun is one of the part and parcel of nature's working. The moon is also, the seasonal changes. So many things, nature is working very systematically. The summer season will appear exactly in the month of June and July. The fall begins in September every year. One can foretell that, "Next September this will happen," because nature's routine is very fixed up. So this systematic work of nature, how it is possible if there is no supervision? What they do is they just take it for granted, because it's happening so regularly. *So that means you have to accept it—there is superior administration. You may not know what is that administration, but you have to accept it. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa says: "Under My supervision." Here those who are in the gross ignorance, not intelligent, they can suggest that there is some brain, just like Professor Einstein used to say. But he has no knowledge who is that brain, and we have that knowledge, who is that brain. That brain is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore our knowledge is perfect. They can simply suggest that, "There is a brain," but we can say: "Here is the brain." Then it is . . . if one knows whose brain it is, that is perfect knowledge. But they have no faith. That's the only difficulty. That is foolishness. You accept some brain. But if somebody comes who is accepted as the brain, they have no faith. That means rascal. Nārada says: "Here is the brain." Brahmā says: "Here is the brain." Śiva says: "Here is the brain." Then ācāryas , Vyāsadeva, says: "Here is the brain." Then modern ācāryas , they say, "Here is the brain." Then why don't you accept? You are so rascal? Just like a person is going to London. So if he says: "I have no faith that this Quantas will carry me to London," then how he will be convinced? How he'll be? If he says that, "I have no faith in this Quantas company, that it will carry me to London," and if he does not purchase the ticket—he has no faith—then who will be loser? The Quantas company will be loser or he will be loser? Hmm? He's the loser. The rascal who says . . . you can say that, that Quantas will carry him to London. You can say that. But if on account of his wrong faith if he does not purchase the ticket, then who will be loser? The Quantas will be loser or he will be loser? If you have no faith, then you are loser. You remain. Rot in this place. Do not try to go to London. What do you think? Eh? The traveler is the loser. What is that? The traveler is the loser. Yes, traveler is the loser. If you have no faith, then loser. You are loser. You will never understand. Therefore śāstra says, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Big, big stalwart ācāryas , mahājanas , they are accepting; therefore we accept. That is sense. And if you sit down, "No, no, I have no faith," you'll sit down and remain a rascal, that's all. Ādau śraddhā . Therefore faith is the first thing. Ādau śraddhā . If he has got intelligence, he'll see: "So many big, big . . . Lord Brahmā accepts. Lord Śiva accepts. Vyāsadeva accepts. Nārada accepts. The ācāryas accept. So am I more than them? No. I will accept." And that is perfection of . . . mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). And if still you remain faithless, then you are rascal. Same example can be . . . Qantas. So many hundreds are purchasing ticket. They have also never seen London, but on faith they're purchasing ticket. So you have no faith, you don't purchase—therefore remain here. Without faith you cannot begin to work. The same example, you have gone to a barber shop. He is shaving, and people blindly closing eyes, and he has got a razor. He can immediately cut. But why do you do this? Because you have faith that, "These people are professional barbers. They are shaving so many other people. They will not kill me. All right. Go on." This is faith. And if you have no faith, then you will never have clean shaven. You go away. *So beginning is faith, but faith should not be blind. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). You have to take faith from great personalities. That is faith. Just like you American boys and girls, you began with faith. Without faith nothing can be . . . ādau śraddhā . Just like people come, and they get some faith that, "So many people are following Swāmījī." So he associates for some time, then he offers himself for initiation. This is the way. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu*-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā (CC Madhya 23.14). And bhajana-kriyā , if he agrees with spiritual master and takes his word, then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt . Spiritual master says: "You should not do this," and if he follows, then automatically his unnecessary burden is cleansed. This is the way. But faith is the beginning. And that is quite natural. Faith means by seeing others, respectable persons, following, "And why not I shall follow?" That is faith. That is not also blind. You can see that so many others are doing, "So why not I myself?" This faith in the mundane religions, that cannot be called real faith? *No, that is faith, but because one is not intelligent, he takes irreligion as religion. He does not . . . he should be also very intelligent, faithful and intelligent. Not blind faith. He must be faithful, and intelligence . . . he must know what is actually religion. So therefore sādhu*-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83). Associate with sādhus means those who are actually on the platform. So if he associates with the sādhu —the sādhus accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead—he will get the understanding that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. Then his faith becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. This is the way. So what is the exact meaning of that verse, śraddhā-śabde ? That verse . . . *Yes, śraddhā . That faith increase, and when it is increased so much that he fully understands, "By worshiping Kṛṣṇa, everything is done," that is first*-class faith. Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya (CC Madhya 22.62). If he becomes fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is first class, means fulfillment of faith. In the beginning it might be doubtful, neophyte. But when that is . . . that faith is fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is the fulfillment of faith. Faith also there are different stages, improvement. Devotional service means different grades of faith. Today I am in one stage of faith, next day another stage, next day another stage, next day another stage. And when you come to the stage that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), oh, that is final. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That takes time. And quickly also, if one is fortunate. If one is intelligent—"The śāstra says: 'Vāsudeva is everything,' so why not take Vāsudeva as everything?"—then he gains the result immediately. And if he thinks, "All right, let me see for some time," so he may waste his time, but the point is the same. Point is the same, but he has not developed his faith to such extent. He'll have to wait. And intelligent person, he says: "Why shall I wait? Let me take finally vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). That business is finished." Sa mahātmā . Therefore it is said, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. *That kind of staunch faith is not very easy. It is for the great personality. Immediately accepts. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Immediately accepts: "Yes." Then sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is not very easily done. That means yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām (BG 7.28). He is completely free from all reaction of sinful life. Puṇya-karmaṇām —he is only engaged in pious activities. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānām, te dvandva-moha . . . he has no more, I mean, doubt. Dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ . He has no doubt, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person." That's it. That's all. If you take by argument, reason, you may waste your time. But if you are intelligent, you can take it on the evidence of mahājano yena gataḥ , all the mahājanas . They are mahājanas . "Prahlāda has taken, Bhīṣmadeva has taken, Janaka Mahārāja has taken, Lord Brahmā has taken, Lord Śiva has taken, Nārada has taken, Kapila has taken . . . what I am?" (laughs) That is intelligence. "Why I am waiting on my intelligence?" That is real. But this rascal is thinking more than Brahmā, Nārada, Kapila, Prahlāda. He is thinking he is more than them. That means rascal, overintelligent. Overintelligent means rascal. Intelligence means you must have reason. And if he is going beyond reason, only depending on himself, then he is overintelligent rascal. You understand overintelligent rascal? Don't be overintelligent. That is very risky. Be intelligent. Overintelligent means rascal. Spoiling. Just like milk: you are heating, and if you give overheat, spoil so many. That kind of heating is not required. You just push on heat as much required. Otherwise you'll spoil by your intelligence. Śrīla Prabhupāda? They say that one should try to . . . in order to approach the spiritual master one must . . . Purchase? Approach. Approach. Ah, approach. One must become perfect disciple. One must approach a perfect spiritual master, and he must become perfect disciple. Could you explain that, please? Yes. He should follow spiritual master. Then he is perfect disciple. (aside) Bring water with ice. So some . . . this Gauḍīya Maṭha . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- May 2, 1976, Fiji *That is the difficulty. Everyone sees that, "Some way or other, I become guru . Then so many persons will offer me respect. Somehow or other, create some situation. Then I become guru ." This is going on. Not bona fide guru . Bona fide guru is indicated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā : "Become guru ." Why ambition? Actually become guru . But how to become guru ? Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa ( CC Madhya 7.128). That's it, otherwise goru . So they will not take this simple method. They will drink, they will hunt after woman and have some attractive singing or dancing and become guru . What is meaning of guru , they do not know. Somehow or other become popular and become guru . This is going on. So with māyā you can attract these foolish rascals very easily, if you can manufacture. You cannot, but if you can show some jugglery, then you become guru . People are after all these things, material things. They are not after Kṛṣṇa. They are after money and women. So if you give some mantra , then gold will be manufactured, and all women will be attracted, very first class. You know, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that if anyone has power to induce anybody to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, therefore they must have some special power. Therefore that's their qualification. That special power, that is said in the śāstras . But people do not want that. Just like, for example, in Bengal before, there was that Charan das Babaji. He induced them to chant the wrong mantra , but where is . . . he's not specifically paramparā . *No. He chanted for some time and, of course, there was chanting of nitāi*-gaura. He introduced new system of chanting: nitāi-gaura rādhe-śyāma . So the nitāi-gaura chanting will have some effect, Kali-yuga. Although he was presenting pervertedly, the beginning was nitāi-gaura, so it would have some effect. He did not know actually Nitāi-Gaura, from his words, it appears. He used to preach that Nitāi is Rādhārāṇī, and Gaura is Kṛṣṇa. That is siddhānta-virodha . But some way or other, he was chanting nitāi-gaura. So some effect were there. Just like sandalwood. You do not know which way better pulp comes out, but if you rub any way some pulp will come, because it is sandalwood. So he had some effect of chanting nitāi-gaura , but later on they deteriorated because they did not know actually, neither they were taught. Siddhānta-virodha. The siddhānta-virodha means it will deteriorate; it will not endure. Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about, say, many of your Godbrothers? They also have disciples, and they also are properly initiated by a proper spiritual master, and they give the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . *The thing is the spirit, real service of preaching, stopped. Formality is going on, but the real business . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement means āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). That is stopped. Do you follow? The formalities is there, but the real life of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is preaching. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa ? Tāra means preach. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). And that is stopped. They are satisfied if they could construct one temple and beg some rice from the neighborhood: "Sir, we have got some temple." That's all. They are satisfied. The spirit of preaching forward— pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo —that is stopped. So by hari-nāma , by chanting, by this way, to live little peacefully in the temple and eat and sleep, that much they have got. If that is the success, that success they have got. And this was condemned by my Guru Mahārāja, that "To earn some money by showing Deity in the temple and eat and sleep—better you become a sweeper in the street and earn your honest livelihood and live." This is cheating. This was condemned. To construct a temple . . . just like the Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs are doing. They thought that "This is our business. Some innocent people will come here and offer some . . . bās , that's our good income." According to the temple's popularity, they think, "This is our success." Therefore they are deteriorating. So that is not success. Success is he is who is pushing forward the preaching method. That is his success. And if we think that "By showing a temple Deity we get some money and rice and cloth and just peacefully live here. Don't bother about going to Fiji and all over . . ." (laughs) That much success they have got. But that is not Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, sarvatra pracāra . (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126) What they are doing for that? That is point. What if sometimes a disciple, he may go to preach, but he's not preaching in the exact same spirit of his spiritual master? *Therefore he is not to be preached. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41): "Go to do good to others, first of all you do good to yourself." First of all you become really preacher. Then go to preach. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never sent neophyte to go to preach. For neophyte the preaching is not their business. For neophyte, one should stick to the worship of Deity in the temple. And those who have understood the philosophy, applied the philosophy in his life, he should go for preaching. Otherwise he'll preach wrongly, like . . . what is that? Charan das Babaji. And it will stop. He wanted to preach, but he did not know how to preach, and therefore, after his life, it is finished. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not say like that, that "You remain a rascal and go to preach." No. Janma sārthaka kari . "Your first business is that you make your life perfect. Then go to preach. 'Perfect' means you learn how to obey My orders." That is perfection. Āmāra ājñāya. So if you are actually, perfectly carrying out the orders of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then you are preaching. Otherwise you will do wrongly, mislead. Don't do that. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If you remain blind, don't try to lead other blind men. That is misleading. First of all open your eyes. Everything is there. Nobody can do anything whimsically. If you do whimsically, concoctedly, that will be failure. It will not be effective. Even though one may get many followers, that is not . . . *Many? What you . . .? Many followers . . . the philosophy you present, it must be followed by everyone. That is wanted. You have got, say, ten thousand followers. That does not mean success. Everyone has got some followers. This . . . what is that? Guru*-ji Maharaja. He has got also so-called followers. The T.M., he has got also some followers. Everyone has got some followers. But what kind of followers they have? That is quality. Everything has quality. Simply quantity is not. There are many Christians. Even up to date, some Christian fair or . . . many millions will come. What is the quality? Quality is all meat-eater. But Christian means he should not kill. Where is the Christian? So we have to test by the quality, followers. Not many followers; the quality of the followers. My Guru Mahārāja used to say like that, that "If I get at least one quality disciple, then all my labor will be success." He was saying like that: quality, not the quantity. By quantity if one is amazed, then he is also goru . By quality—what kind of followers? That is the . . . from the very beginning my strictures are there that, "You have to follow this"—quality. If I were . . . "No, you can do like Vivekananda. Yes, what you can, whatever you like," then I think quantity would have been very, very big. But I don't say. I make him promise before the fire, before the Deity, before guru . (break) *That one moon is taken into account. Who takes account of millions of stars? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). Quality. So we should be quality devotee, not quantity devotee. (drinking) Hmm. I have taken two glasses. Just see how nice water is, ḍāb (unripe coconut) water. Here so many ḍābs are available, and this rascal is manufacturing RC (Royal Crown cola), and he is going as to be . . . as business. And for hearing Bhagavad*-gītā they have no time, and they are trying to go to Vṛndāvana. Quantity, not quality. So civilization should be quality civilization, not quantity civilization. Do that. Bheḍyadāsana. Bheḍyadāsana. Bheḍī , lamb, they are going, hundreds and thousands flocks. So, and if one bheḍī , lamb, is somehow or other pushed into slaughterhouse stockroom, so all the . . . all of them. You haven't got to take many. Some way or other, you induce one of them to go into the, what is called, shed, where stocks are kept for taking out daily and killing. So they do not mind that "We are being pushed into this room for future killing. Never mind. One has gone. Go." They'll go. So this is called, in Hindi, bheḍyadāsana , that without any consideration, "One has entered. Let us all enter." That is bheḍī , means animal. Their disciple like this. (pause) They liked the ceremony? I think we should tell . . . Vāsudeva dāsa is getting his brahmin thread this afternoon? Eh? Are you giving him his brahmin initiation this afternoon? He has come? No. We can do that tomorrow. So it has been settled where we are going? Well, I have to go to the airport this evening. No, with Vāsudeva. Yes. He is . . . he thought it was best. Don't do anything . . . No, it was his suggestion, because he doesn't want it to be another small program. He feels . . . This is also cold water? It was. It's still cold. Darwin's theory is body is changing, but why it is changing, he does not explain. He said it's the course of nature. You can't explain nature. That's his only answer. Nature . . . but we also say, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). So it is to be understood that it is being done under superior control. If nature is doing, so nature is superior control. He cannot explain. So if he does not know how nature is working, then what is the value of his theory? If he says that he cannot explain how nature is doing, that means he is not expert. He may be mistaken. So why his opinion or decision should be taken final? He does not know how nature is working. That is not perfect knowledge. Does he say like that, "Nature is working"? Nature. *So how nature is working, he does not know. Then his knowledge is imperfect. Nature is working how, that we know. That is very sober understanding. We say that nature is working under the superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). Nature . . . we see nature. Generally we have got idea of the material nature, that the sun is one of the part and parcel of nature's working. The moon is also, the seasonal changes. So many things, nature is working very systematically. The summer season will appear exactly in the month of June and July. The fall begins in September every year. One can foretell that, "Next September this will happen," because nature's routine is very fixed up. So this systematic work of nature, how it is possible if there is no supervision? What they do is they just take it for granted, because it's happening so regularly. *So that means you have to accept it—there is superior administration. You may not know what is that administration, but you have to accept it. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa says: "Under My supervision." Here those who are in the gross ignorance, not intelligent, they can suggest that there is some brain, just like Professor Einstein used to say. But he has no knowledge who is that brain, and we have that knowledge, who is that brain. That brain is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore our knowledge is perfect. They can simply suggest that, "There is a brain," but we can say: "Here is the brain." Then it is . . . if one knows whose brain it is, that is perfect knowledge. But they have no faith. That's the only difficulty. That is foolishness. You accept some brain. But if somebody comes who is accepted as the brain, they have no faith. That means rascal. Nārada says: "Here is the brain." Brahmā says: "Here is the brain." Śiva says: "Here is the brain." Then ācāryas , Vyāsadeva, says: "Here is the brain." Then modern ācāryas , they say, "Here is the brain." Then why don't you accept? You are so rascal? Just like a person is going to London. So if he says: "I have no faith that this Quantas will carry me to London," then how he will be convinced? How he'll be? If he says that, "I have no faith in this Quantas company, that it will carry me to London," and if he does not purchase the ticket—he has no faith—then who will be loser? The Quantas company will be loser or he will be loser? Hmm? He's the loser. The rascal who says . . . you can say that, that Quantas will carry him to London. You can say that. But if on account of his wrong faith if he does not purchase the ticket, then who will be loser? The Quantas will be loser or he will be loser? If you have no faith, then you are loser. You remain. Rot in this place. Do not try to go to London. What do you think? Eh? The traveler is the loser. What is that? The traveler is the loser. Yes, traveler is the loser. If you have no faith, then loser. You are loser. You will never understand. Therefore śāstra says, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Big, big stalwart ācāryas , mahājanas , they are accepting; therefore we accept. That is sense. And if you sit down, "No, no, I have no faith," you'll sit down and remain a rascal, that's all. Ādau śraddhā . Therefore faith is the first thing. Ādau śraddhā . If he has got intelligence, he'll see: "So many big, big . . . Lord Brahmā accepts. Lord Śiva accepts. Vyāsadeva accepts. Nārada accepts. The ācāryas accept. So am I more than them? No. I will accept." And that is perfection of . . . mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). And if still you remain faithless, then you are rascal. Same example can be . . . Qantas. So many hundreds are purchasing ticket. They have also never seen London, but on faith they're purchasing ticket. So you have no faith, you don't purchase—therefore remain here. Without faith you cannot begin to work. The same example, you have gone to a barber shop. He is shaving, and people blindly closing eyes, and he has got a razor. He can immediately cut. But why do you do this? Because you have faith that, "These people are professional barbers. They are shaving so many other people. They will not kill me. All right. Go on." This is faith. And if you have no faith, then you will never have clean shaven. You go away. *So beginning is faith, but faith should not be blind. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). You have to take faith from great personalities. That is faith. Just like you American boys and girls, you began with faith. Without faith nothing can be . . . ādau śraddhā . Just like people come, and they get some faith that, "So many people are following Swāmījī." So he associates for some time, then he offers himself for initiation. This is the way. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu*-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā (CC Madhya 23.14). And bhajana-kriyā , if he agrees with spiritual master and takes his word, then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt . Spiritual master says: "You should not do this," and if he follows, then automatically his unnecessary burden is cleansed. This is the way. But faith is the beginning. And that is quite natural. Faith means by seeing others, respectable persons, following, "And why not I shall follow?" That is faith. That is not also blind. You can see that so many others are doing, "So why not I myself?" This faith in the mundane religions, that cannot be called real faith? *No, that is faith, but because one is not intelligent, he takes irreligion as religion. He does not . . . he should be also very intelligent, faithful and intelligent. Not blind faith. He must be faithful, and intelligence . . . he must know what is actually religion. So therefore sādhu*-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83). Associate with sādhus means those who are actually on the platform. So if he associates with the sādhu —the sādhus accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead—he will get the understanding that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. Then his faith becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. This is the way. So what is the exact meaning of that verse, śraddhā-śabde ? That verse . . . *Yes, śraddhā . That faith increase, and when it is increased so much that he fully understands, "By worshiping Kṛṣṇa, everything is done," that is first*-class faith. Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya (CC Madhya 22.62). If he becomes fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is first class, means fulfillment of faith. In the beginning it might be doubtful, neophyte. But when that is . . . that faith is fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is the fulfillment of faith. Faith also there are different stages, improvement. Devotional service means different grades of faith. Today I am in one stage of faith, next day another stage, next day another stage, next day another stage. And when you come to the stage that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), oh, that is final. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That takes time. And quickly also, if one is fortunate. If one is intelligent—"The śāstra says: 'Vāsudeva is everything,' so why not take Vāsudeva as everything?"—then he gains the result immediately. And if he thinks, "All right, let me see for some time," so he may waste his time, but the point is the same. Point is the same, but he has not developed his faith to such extent. He'll have to wait. And intelligent person, he says: "Why shall I wait? Let me take finally vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). That business is finished." Sa mahātmā . Therefore it is said, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. *That kind of staunch faith is not very easy. It is for the great personality. Immediately accepts. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Immediately accepts: "Yes." Then sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is not very easily done. That means yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām (BG 7.28). He is completely free from all reaction of sinful life. Puṇya-karmaṇām —he is only engaged in pious activities. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānām, te dvandva-moha . . . he has no more, I mean, doubt. Dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ . He has no doubt, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person." That's it. That's all. If you take by argument, reason, you may waste your time. But if you are intelligent, you can take it on the evidence of mahājano yena gataḥ , all the mahājanas . They are mahājanas . "Prahlāda has taken, Bhīṣmadeva has taken, Janaka Mahārāja has taken, Lord Brahmā has taken, Lord Śiva has taken, Nārada has taken, Kapila has taken . . . what I am?" (laughs) That is intelligence. "Why I am waiting on my intelligence?" That is real. But this rascal is thinking more than Brahmā, Nārada, Kapila, Prahlāda. He is thinking he is more than them. That means rascal, overintelligent. Overintelligent means rascal. Intelligence means you must have reason. And if he is going beyond reason, only depending on himself, then he is overintelligent rascal. You understand overintelligent rascal? Don't be overintelligent. That is very risky. Be intelligent. Overintelligent means rascal. Spoiling. Just like milk: you are heating, and if you give overheat, spoil so many. That kind of heating is not required. You just push on heat as much required. Otherwise you'll spoil by your intelligence. Śrīla Prabhupāda? They say that one should try to . . . in order to approach the spiritual master one must . . . Purchase? Approach. Approach. Ah, approach. One must become perfect disciple. One must approach a perfect spiritual master, and he must become perfect disciple. Could you explain that, please? Yes. He should follow spiritual master. Then he is perfect disciple. (aside) Bring water with ice. So some . . . this Gauḍīya Maṭha . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- May 3, 1976, Fiji . . . they used to discover, whole method is finished. Oh, yeah. During the war. Huh? Yes. So sinful means punishment . . . (indistinct) *Our point is that we are going to live in the future. So if, becoming modern, we forget our future, then what is the use of becoming modernized? Better remain primitive. The business is that in future also we shall exist. If we do not know how we shall exist—either I shall exist as a cat, as a dog or a tree or a demigod or as associate of Kṛṣṇa . . . if I do not know . . . on account of being modernized, if I remain in darkness about my future, so it is better to remain primitive. What is the use of becoming modernized and forget myself and my future? Becoming modernized, if I become dog in future, so where is the use of modernized? Real business is that I shall take care of my future, especially in the human form of body. Cats and dogs, they do not know about future. If I know there is future, I have a future . . . this is also said by Kṛṣṇa: tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ ( BG 2.13): "In future." Not this body, another body. So is it not my first business, to prepare what is my future body? That is my first business? Or to drink RC (Royal Crown cola) my first business? (laughter) Just see, by drinking RC if I, next life I become a dog, then what is the use of modernized life? And if we, by remaining in primitive state, we can produce Vyāsadeva, oh, it is better. But the fools have no sense. Suppose if I go to some place for some business, and going there, to select my hotel, which hotel I shall enter, I remain busy to find out the hotel and I forget the business for which I have gone there, then am I not madman? The human life is meant for deciding his future. If we do not care for the future, and if I want to become modernized from primitive life, is that very good inclination? Real business forgotten, but I am busy with modernized life. That example I give sometimes, śajte śajte dol phurolo, mane (The Holi fair was over while she kept dressing means,) that one has to go to see a fair on account of Dol yatra (Festival of colors.) So women, they generally dress themself very nicely. So the woman said to his friend that, "Let me dress." So dressing, dressing, dressing. In the meantime, the fair finished. So the modern civilization is like that . . . śajte śajte dol phurolo. (The Holi fair was over while she kept dressing.) I have to go to see the fair, but I became so much attentive in dressing that in the meantime news came, "The fair is finished." That is our civilization. A human life is meant for preparing for the next life. That is sensible. But I am so much busy in manufacturing things for modernized life—RC, TC, PC and so on, so on. *In future, at the time of death, I begin to bark and I think, "Oh . . ." And nature will say: "Alright, come on." "No, no, I'm not going to . . ." No, why not? You have become modernized, barking like dog. So you bark. Who will check that? Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā . . . (BG 7.14). Māyā will take consideration, "What you have made yourself, a dog or god?" That she will take account. If you have made yourself a dog, "Just come on, become a dog." If you have made yourself as god, then "Come on, you'll be demigod." That is for everything. Otherwise why there are varieties? There is dog life and there is demigod life, Indra life. It is not one-sided. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), it is not one-sided. You have to change your body. And there are varieties of life, so it is up to you what kind of body you have got. You can change your body up to the point of becoming associate of Kṛṣṇa. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25). Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma . . . (BG 15.6). These informations are there. So if you have to prepare for the next life, why not go back to home, back to Godhead? Yad gatvā na nivartante . This is intelligent? Or to become modernized and become a dog next life. Which is intelligent? The śāstra says: "No, this is intelligent." What? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). This life should be utilized for tapasya , to purify your existence. That is the śāstra . Śāstra does not say you become modernized. What is this modernized? Simply waste of time. Polished. Huh? Polished dogs. Yes. Actual modernized means how far you have advanced in spiritual consciousness. That is wanted. It does not taste exactly ḍāl , I think, due to this new water in it. So is there any engagement? Today? Somebody was to come? Was to come, but . . . He is not coming. Who is not modernized? They will go to the dancing party for their salvation. (laughter) Dog dance. Today is Sunday. Everyone is busy with their family—family, society. You know this Ravi Shankar? *Umm*-hmm. *His elder brother, Uday Shankar, he became very famous man as a dancer, all over the world. Uday Shankar. And by imitating his brother, the Ravi Shankar also tried to become first*-class sitarist. So family . . . (break) . . . was a little famous for artistic. So that Uday Shankar was dancing in the Indian way, and there are many sculpture of dancing like that. That was his art. So he became famous. He's not living? He's dead? No, he's dead means now he's old man. He's about my age or little older than me. Now his skin has become slackened and body is not so strong to dance. It requires exercise. Therefore he's retired, I think maybe dead. But I don't hear his name. He was more or less known in Europe as Shankar. But he was so popular that one my doctor friend . . . he was educated in London, a medical officer of Allahabad. So he told me that, "I saw that in Paris, Uday Shankar's dancing was advertised, and hundreds and thousands of people from England going to Paris, crossing the Channel to see him dance." He showed me. He's so popular. And now nobody asks for him. (laughs) Another bubble. Huh? Another bubble popped. I remember when Ravi Shankar and George Harrison came to see you in Vṛndāvana. Yes. The first thing you asked them was, "You are very famous, but what will you be next life? What is your guarantee for the next life?" Yes. I told him. And I don't think any other guru would have asked that. Where is guru ? Goru , you say goru . When it is pronounced guru , I say, you say, don't say guru , but you say goru . Goru . Goru , no. Do you know goru ? Goru means cow. Cow. (laughs) (laughing) Otherwise they're going to find out, then don't say goru. Guru . Guru . *Goru means cow. Śrī*-goru-caraṇa-padma. Śrī-goru. (laughs) So they're all gorus , nobody guru . Yes. All rascals. Now that Ravi Shankar has become George guru . Somebody . . . you were telling me? That this boy has been taught to take the dust of the feet of Ravi Shankar in the stage, and people did not like it. So he has become unpopular accepting a goru . (end) Conversation -- May 3, 1976, Fiji . . . they used to discover, whole method is finished. Oh, yeah. During the war. Huh? Yes. So sinful means punishment . . . (indistinct) *Our point is that we are going to live in the future. So if, becoming modern, we forget our future, then what is the use of becoming modernized? Better remain primitive. The business is that in future also we shall exist. If we do not know how we shall exist—either I shall exist as a cat, as a dog or a tree or a demigod or as associate of Kṛṣṇa . . . if I do not know . . . on account of being modernized, if I remain in darkness about my future, so it is better to remain primitive. What is the use of becoming modernized and forget myself and my future? Becoming modernized, if I become dog in future, so where is the use of modernized? Real business is that I shall take care of my future, especially in the human form of body. Cats and dogs, they do not know about future. If I know there is future, I have a future . . . this is also said by Kṛṣṇa: tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ ( BG 2.13): "In future." Not this body, another body. So is it not my first business, to prepare what is my future body? That is my first business? Or to drink RC (Royal Crown cola) my first business? (laughter) Just see, by drinking RC if I, next life I become a dog, then what is the use of modernized life? And if we, by remaining in primitive state, we can produce Vyāsadeva, oh, it is better. But the fools have no sense. Suppose if I go to some place for some business, and going there, to select my hotel, which hotel I shall enter, I remain busy to find out the hotel and I forget the business for which I have gone there, then am I not madman? The human life is meant for deciding his future. If we do not care for the future, and if I want to become modernized from primitive life, is that very good inclination? Real business forgotten, but I am busy with modernized life. That example I give sometimes, śajte śajte dol phurolo, mane (The Holi fair was over while she kept dressing means,) that one has to go to see a fair on account of Dol yatra (Festival of colors.) So women, they generally dress themself very nicely. So the woman said to his friend that, "Let me dress." So dressing, dressing, dressing. In the meantime, the fair finished. So the modern civilization is like that . . . śajte śajte dol phurolo. (The Holi fair was over while she kept dressing.) I have to go to see the fair, but I became so much attentive in dressing that in the meantime news came, "The fair is finished." That is our civilization. A human life is meant for preparing for the next life. That is sensible. But I am so much busy in manufacturing things for modernized life—RC, TC, PC and so on, so on. *In future, at the time of death, I begin to bark and I think, "Oh . . ." And nature will say: "Alright, come on." "No, no, I'm not going to . . ." No, why not? You have become modernized, barking like dog. So you bark. Who will check that? Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā . . . (BG 7.14). Māyā will take consideration, "What you have made yourself, a dog or god?" That she will take account. If you have made yourself a dog, "Just come on, become a dog." If you have made yourself as god, then "Come on, you'll be demigod." That is for everything. Otherwise why there are varieties? There is dog life and there is demigod life, Indra life. It is not one-sided. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), it is not one-sided. You have to change your body. And there are varieties of life, so it is up to you what kind of body you have got. You can change your body up to the point of becoming associate of Kṛṣṇa. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25). Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma . . . (BG 15.6). These informations are there. So if you have to prepare for the next life, why not go back to home, back to Godhead? Yad gatvā na nivartante . This is intelligent? Or to become modernized and become a dog next life. Which is intelligent? The śāstra says: "No, this is intelligent." What? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). This life should be utilized for tapasya , to purify your existence. That is the śāstra . Śāstra does not say you become modernized. What is this modernized? Simply waste of time. Polished. Huh? Polished dogs. Yes. Actual modernized means how far you have advanced in spiritual consciousness. That is wanted. It does not taste exactly ḍāl , I think, due to this new water in it. So is there any engagement? Today? Somebody was to come? Was to come, but . . . He is not coming. Who is not modernized? They will go to the dancing party for their salvation. (laughter) Dog dance. Today is Sunday. Everyone is busy with their family—family, society. You know this Ravi Shankar? *Umm*-hmm. *His elder brother, Uday Shankar, he became very famous man as a dancer, all over the world. Uday Shankar. And by imitating his brother, the Ravi Shankar also tried to become first*-class sitarist. So family . . . (break) . . . was a little famous for artistic. So that Uday Shankar was dancing in the Indian way, and there are many sculpture of dancing like that. That was his art. So he became famous. He's not living? He's dead? No, he's dead means now he's old man. He's about my age or little older than me. Now his skin has become slackened and body is not so strong to dance. It requires exercise. Therefore he's retired, I think maybe dead. But I don't hear his name. He was more or less known in Europe as Shankar. But he was so popular that one my doctor friend . . . he was educated in London, a medical officer of Allahabad. So he told me that, "I saw that in Paris, Uday Shankar's dancing was advertised, and hundreds and thousands of people from England going to Paris, crossing the Channel to see him dance." He showed me. He's so popular. And now nobody asks for him. (laughs) Another bubble. Huh? Another bubble popped. I remember when Ravi Shankar and George Harrison came to see you in Vṛndāvana. Yes. The first thing you asked them was, "You are very famous, but what will you be next life? What is your guarantee for the next life?" Yes. I told him. And I don't think any other guru would have asked that. Where is guru ? Goru , you say goru . When it is pronounced guru , I say, you say, don't say guru , but you say goru . Goru . Goru , no. Do you know goru ? Goru means cow. Cow. (laughs) (laughing) Otherwise they're going to find out, then don't say goru. Guru . Guru . *Goru means cow. Śrī*-goru-caraṇa-padma. Śrī-goru. (laughs) So they're all gorus , nobody guru . Yes. All rascals. Now that Ravi Shankar has become George guru . Somebody . . . you were telling me? That this boy has been taught to take the dust of the feet of Ravi Shankar in the stage, and people did not like it. So he has become unpopular accepting a goru . (end) Conversation -- May 4, 1976, Honolulu . . . just on the Sunday easily. Charge them . . . you know, like in Los Angeles, we used to charge a dollar a . . . The loan will be clear very soon. Oh, yes. They have a . . . they are very expert at financing now, these . . . the men who are in charge now. They're claiming that within two or three months all of the debt will be completely cleared. They have a plan, very easily. (chuckles) He is the right person. Yes. And the restaurant is very successful. Also, they have not advertised that, but every day at least about fifty people come for the lunch, and at least another seventy, eighty people come in the evening for dinner. For a full meal each person pays an average of about $2.50. That's cheap. All you can eat for two dollars . . . And for public it is very cheap. Very inexpensive. And if they advertise it, they won't be able to handle all the people that will come. It's such a central location. It will be automatically advertised. When people will say: "Oh, there is a nice ISKCON restaurant, and it is so cheap and so nice," people will come. Just like in our Vṛndāvana temple, we don't advertise. Of course, that's . . . people are coming by thousands. Yes. Same here. I thought that so long distance from the city, nobody will come. But Balarāma is so powerful, He's bringing, "Come out here." (laughter) Otherwise, I was . . . what is that? Plowing? Yamunā was threatened. Oh, Balarāma. And the whole Kuru dynasty was threatened. Very good class of people are coming to the restaurant—businessmen, like that. And there is book display? Oh, yes. Oh, yes, there's a book display. They are purchasing book also? Yes. They give them a Back to Godhead , complimentary copy . . . Ācchā . . . . with the meal. And then they also purchase books. The buses are going on nicely. All the buses are out. Two more buses are being made now. Oh, you are adding two more. Yes. Well, we had almost finished two. They'll be added in June, so that will make eight, a total of eight. And they're having a normal program going on nicely. And Madhudviṣa Mahārāja also went to visit the other temples. He said in Boston they've gotten . . . (aside) I think they've already gotten it, right? That restaurant? Ambarīṣa Prabhu has gotten the most wonderful restaurant there, just around the corner from the temple. So it will be very, very high class restaurant, with waiters, and . . . Now, this New York restaurant being organized, other restaurant will follow. *This restaurant down here, I just was there. Gaura*-Govinda, he's the one who decorated it. First class. People really like it. From the very beginning I was asking to open restaurant and farm. Produce ghee in the farm and send to the restaurant, and make nice samosā, kachorī preparation, and there will be no scarcity of money. And if you organize in this way, your whole country will be transferred into Kṛṣṇa conscious country. Whole country. So, what about your China program? Well, we went to New York to meet with Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja's father, and he was very helpful. We approached him in a frank way, and he immediately got the help of his office. He's the president of this Far East American Council. Yes. *Yes. And not only China, this is for all of Asia. It includes as . . . some of the persons belonging to it are the . . . just like the chairman of Coca*-Cola, the Bankers Trust Company first vice-president, all of the big banks, Bank of America senior vice-president, First National City Bank vice-president, all of these men. So you can contract with all big, big men. Yes. And he's the president of the council. His father? Yes. Then he is very influential man. Very. So he immediately got . . . So you should be like father, like son. He has the same name. It's just "Junior" at the end, so they know him. No, intelligence also. Father's intelligence he must inherit. There is an Indian proverb, bāpakā beṭā sepāikā ghoḍā, kucha nehi to thoḍā thoḍā means, "The father's son and the soldier's horse, they acquire the quality, if not all, some; must." If one is good soldier, his horse is also trained up. There is a history in India. The horse has played heroic. The Queen of Jhansi's horse and this, our, what is called, Shivaji's horse, they have played unique part in the history. Sepāikā ghoḍā . It is animal, but because it is the horse of a famous hero, it has played. Similarly, the son of father must be as good as father. If not, to some extent. Yes. So you are the . . . your father is the leader of so many big, big businessmen. You also become leader. For Kṛṣṇa. Hmm? For Kṛṣṇa. Yes. And you have got the intelligence. I have seen. I have studied you. Now you combine. Both of you, you are intelligent. You turn the whole America Kṛṣṇa conscious. Bās . Then success all over the world. America is the leader of the nations. Now, if the America becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then our movement is perfectly successful. And you have got the potency in America. These men are all in Asia, though. His father's biggest concern . . . see, his father . . . the company is divided into two: the American branch of Seagrams, and the overseas, which incorporates the whole world outside of America. His father is the president of overseas. So his father has all connections with all of the embassies overseas, all of the big corporations overseas. So all these big, big men, let them have one set of books and study. It is not any expenditure for them, but if at their leisure hour they read some of the line—they are all intelligent men—they'll get ideas, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So through the influence of father, just try to introduce our books to these big men. It is not . . . they may keep them in library, and at leisure hour, if they simply glance over the line, oh, it will be great success. And their sons will also read it. Their sons also will read. Already my father has noticed in his travels that some of his friends, their sons have joined our movement now too. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ, lokas tad anuvartate ( BG 3.21). If these big men of the world, they take it, "Oh, yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine," then naturally it will be followed by the others. So here is a good opportunity to contact big men of the world. So utilize it properly. You . . . both of you are intelligent. Very cautiously deal with them. They will understand that, "Oh, these people are very honest men of character and high knowledge and God conscious." That will make our movement success. *His father has been giving us . . . of course, it was . . . we have been approaching him through the aspect of doing business in China. His father is encouraging us in the sense that he is seeing Dhṛṣṭadyumna . . . like whenever we visit him, we come in our suits, and his father is seeing that . . . he is encouraging him also because he's taking some . . . what he calls a very, what would you say, a responsible position, attempting to do some business. So he's been giving us letters on his company's letterhead. Just like this is a letter to the director of the Department of Commerce of the United States. We've seen a number of people. We've been visiting different directors. First thing we did when we went back is, after meeting him, we got many books on China. Some of the examples are, just like this. We read about twenty*-five books. We've studied up very thoroughly and researched everything about China. Here is a book, The Religious Policy and Practice in Communist China . It describes everything about religion there. So we thoroughly read this book. Then there's other books, books on education, we read books on history . . . Chinese people, they are trying to raise their standard of civilization. Do they? Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they . . . their philosophy is called dialectic materialism. They want to advance materially, and they . . . we have prepared one report of an interview with the president of a committee on United States and China relations. He's one of the leading experts in China. So after researching and studying all the educational, the libraries, all the different functions in China, we went and spoke with this gentleman. First we got a lot of information ourselves, so we'd be knowledgeable. We read for one month. We got . . . we wrote away to all the councils, we got hundreds of books like this, special reports about China. We read them, and then we went to meet this man, because he is the most knowledgeable, expert person on China in the United States. And we made up a report which we wanted to read to you, because it gives everything very nicely. It tells what China is doing now, and what our program can be for book distribution. No, what is their aim? After studying all these books, what do you think? What is the aim of China? What is the objective they are making progress towards? Their aim is that everyone should be materially comfortable. That no one . . . there should be no . . . In that case, they should, if they have got sense . . . just like in the whole world, these American people are materially comfortable. But why they are producing hippies now? They see this as a fault of the system, capitalism. They say that capitalism means the enjoyment of the few at the . . . Materialism means capitalism. Well, they want communistic materialism. In other words, by creating, forming communes, everyone will get equal portion of food and bedding and clothing and medicine. No, that is not the fact. A man's tendency is that everyone wants to get more. So how they will check it? This is already proved in Russia. They condemn Russia. They say Russia is a failure. And similarly, they will have to condemn. That's our conclusion. If they follow the wrong path, they will have the wrong result. This is not . . . *Their leader, Mao Tse*-tung, he was very austere, and he is very moral, and he has these purges where he takes the men who he sees are not . . . or who are trying to use their position for their own power, and he takes it away from them. And they are constantly going through these purges of their system to insure that no one enjoys more than others, at the expense of others. Artificial, though. So that is artificial way of. Unless one is prepared to . . . just like why they are inducing persons to sacrifice their accumulated wealth for the state? Why? Communistic idea that everyone should be equal. So if somebody has more than others, they want to take it away. Just like in India this policy is now growing. So everyone should give away, but now it is being done by law, by force. But that will not stay. We agree. Yes. We also agree it's a failure. Eh? It is bound to fail. Yes. Unless you voluntarily give, it will be failure. You will try to find out ways how you can take everything . . . just like income tax. The government is trying to take more money from the public, and public is hiding them in black market. This is going on. Nobody is . . . even your Nixon, he also hidden some money from the income tax. Why? He is the head of the government. So one side, he is head of the government, try to take money from the public, but he personally, himself, he is hiding. Why this defect? They will say that the system encourages man's greed, whereas their system . . . No, no, system . . . if the . . . you cannot change the mind. If you have got mind to enjoy more, by force if I try to force you not to enjoy more, give to the state, this is a struggle. This is not perfect process. They say that that will be corrected by education. Education . . . that means what is that education? They say that the . . . they don't . . . of course, we say education means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. Education means they must learn to sacrifice everything for the topmost. Well, they say the topmost is the general mass of everyone, the proletariat, all people combined. *That's all right, general. But you know how to make general mass of people happy. That example we give, that the whole body . . . you can make the whole body happy simply by supplying food to the stomach. That is the best way. And if you want to make happy every part of the body individual, that will never be successful. You must know where to touch. Just like the huge machine is going on by the expert manipulation of the pilot. He is pushing one works, immediately the plane becomes . . . it is . . . so you must know where to touch. If I am layman, I am put into that, then, instead of putting here, I shall put my here, and then it will go down, immediately " ohn*-ohn-ohn ," finished. So this is nature's way, that you supply food to the stomach, and the energy will be distributed every part. You supply water to the root of the tree, it will be supplied everywhere. That you must know. Otherwise, if you . . . just like if you do not know, a expert, not expert, so he's advised, "Give to, the food to the stomach." "And in where?" "No, in the hole of the body." If he does not, which hole, then he will put somewhere, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here. It will never act. Then you must know the science how to make everyone happy. If you do not know that, then your imperfect imagination will never be done, and that has become everywhere. Why there is difference of opinion even both of the communistic countries? Why there is difference of opinion between Russia and China? Because both of you do not know how to make everyone happy. That is the point. China has achieved great material strides in the last twenty years. There is no prostitution. They have wiped out flies, no more flies causing disease. There is . . . and they look to a very bitter past of exploitation at the hand of foreigners and internal civil war and great suffering and starvation. So when they look back over twenty years they see, "Oh, we have advanced greatly." So they are very satisfied. No, if they actually progressing, they will have to come to that point—that is natural—where, placing your service, you can serve everyone. That is the right conclusion. But we have got that right conclusion. If you take from us, you can make immediately. But if you want to wait by your research work, then you can waste your time. But you have to come to this point. That is a fact. Just like you have to give food to the mouth. If you do not know, out of rascaldom you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment . . . there are so many holes. You go on experimenting, and waste your time. But unless you come to this point that, "Food has to be supplied here," your all attempt will be failure. That you have to tell them. And because you cannot supersede nature's way . . . nature's way is, "The food must go through here." You cannot change it. You are not above nature. They say that you can become above nature. That is foolishness. That will make them failure. Oh, yes, they will fail. *That will make them failure. Tell them, then this will make them failure, "If you are so foolish that you want to go above nature, then you are fool number one." Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is not possible. That is not possible. Then you are following wrong path. If you are imagining like that, that "We have surpassed the laws of nature," then you are fool number one. In that respect they are like the Americans and Russians. They think that we can overcome the laws of nature. Eh? They are just like the Americans and Russians in the same way. They are thinking we can overcome the stringent laws of nature. No, that is the foolishness. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). So long they will have this impression that they can overcome the laws of nature they will continue to become mūḍha . Śrīla Prabhupāda, another problem . . . In which way you have surpassed nature? First of all, if you are thinking like that, in which way you have surpassed the nature? They say: "For example, before we began our agricultural development, there was very poor agricultural produce all over the country due to lack of proper water. Now we have laid huge irrigation systems, and there is no more drought." Therefore that is nature's way. Nature supplies you water. That is nature's way. That means you are making perfect according to the nature's way. But nature give you water; you produce profusely. But if you want to go above the nature, you produce without water. (laughs) It can't be done. Then we shall see that you have surpassed the laws of . . . the laws of nature is there must be water. Nature is supplying. And you are trying to imitate. But if you say that, "We can overpass the nature's law," then you produce without water. Then you'll be able. Then we shall see that you have gone above . . . this, you are following the nature's. That is not surpassing. That is following little properly. "Now you have arranged for water. That's very good. But if nature pours water, then you save so much labor. Do you know that, how nature will supply water profusely? You haven't got to make artificial arrangement for water. Do you know that?" Ask them. We know that. Formerly their society was very much like the Vedic culture. There was the emperor and the . . . Yes, it was . . . the Chinese people were coming, taking knowledge from . . . everyone was coming. So now argument that, "If you are . . . you are following the nature's way. Nature supply water. That is a fact. Here is cloud. Nature will supply. Now, if you want to surpass nature, then you produce in the factory, without water, food grains. Then we shall understand that you can surpass. As you are producing instruments and so many other motorcars and this, that, so many, in the factory, that's all right. In the factory you produce food grains without water. Then you have surpassed nature." They can't do it. No one can do it. Then where is the question of surpassing nature? Make them fool in every point, these rascals, by argument. Unfortunately, they do not teach any philosophy anymore. They have done away with all . . . This is not philosophy. Yes. This is science. This philosophy, it is science. Without water you cannot produce. This is science. This is not imagination. So if you want to surpass nature, then you do practically. Why should you try to bring canal water or well water? Don't bring. You cannot surpass the laws of nature. That has to be accepted. Their main point is that they want to manipulate expertly the laws of nature. That means let them waste their time. Therefore it requires many births to understand this law. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). And they're going away from this kind of understanding. They had a heritage of philosophical understanding, correct philosophical . . . they were very . . . for instance, their whole system during the time of Confucius . . . up until two or three hundred years ago their system was they had a monarchy, a king, an emperor, and the emperor was believed to be the representative of God. That is good. And it was Vedic. They had a brahmin community—they called them scholars—who were advising. And they had administrators, and they had workers. Now the current Communists, they are against that system. They say this system was the worst system of all because it made some big and some small. Because naturally it became . . . But you are doing the same thing. Otherwise, why you are reforming? Who is reforming unless the one class is very intelligent? The same system. You . . . your . . . what is your rascal's name? *Mao Tse*-tung. Mao. Mao. So he is supposed to be intelligent. He is supposed to be intelligent. So the two classes already there. Well, he says everyone can be equally intelligent. That is another thing. But these classes must remain there—the teacher class and the student class. Here's what they do. They take the teachers . . . this is one of their programs. Actually, we have written a report which explains. They take the teachers, and they send the teachers out into the factory and into the farms for years. So anywhere you send, the student and teacher class is there. You change the name, you change the process, it doesn't matter, but the student class and teacher class will always remain. That is your foolishness. You are simply changing different names. But originally, as planned by nature, that is always there. They say let the factory worker teach the teacher. Anyway, teacher class, rascal, it is teacher class. You make a teacher class. They say everyone should be teachers. That "Should be" means not. No, they are making everyone teachers. And this "making" means not. They are trying to make. That is all right. The classes, two classes, are there. You cannot change that. "trying," "making," means two. It's artificial. Yes. Just like they let the students teach the teachers. That's right. So the teachers . . . sometimes you become teacher, sometimes I become teacher. What is this? *They're trying to create a society where there are no superior*-inferior. That is not possible. Classless society. They are taking themselves the superior position to make equal. (laughs) Yes. That's a fact. Yes. Just like some of the rascal svāmīs come here that "There is no teacher of . . . no require teacher, no need of books." Then why do we need them? And these rascals are writing books, that "There is no need of book." That happened. One svāmī said: "Now you . . . meditation means don't think of anything." So then one of our men at the meeting raised his hand and said: "Then why do we need you?" So he got very angry. He said: "If the mind should do nothing, what do we need you for?" So what was his reply? He told his men to usher our man out. His men got very agitated because there was no reply. He couldn't give a reply. So they asked our man to leave for disturbing the sleeping of the public. Anyway, the whole world is rascal. They will manufacture and spoil time, their own time and others' time. Prabhupāda, we did a report telling . . . we wanted to read this to you. It gives you an idea of what are the possibilities of spreading your books or Kṛṣṇa consciousness in China. We made up a report for you. Do you want to hear it? Hmm. Okay, you want to read it, Dhṛṣṭadyumna? 'Cause it is actually very useful, if not now, in the future of our Soc . . . this report is based on a lot of research. Read. (break) . . . that if they are rascals, then don't try. You see? Reject them. But there is good potency in your country. You do peacefully here. If they are rascals, means stubborn rascals . . . You cannot imagine how rascal they are. That's why we wrote this report. I mean . . . Then don't try. Don't waste time. It's a . . . the Christians, they have a boat two hundred miles off the China coast, and they put little Bibles in cellophane bags and let the Bibles float into China. Balloons. Balloons. That's how hard it is to preach there. That is also nonsense. No, it's nonsense, but I mean the point is how difficult it is. We have . . . *Then don't try. Don't waste time. Don't try. Better try in your country. You have got enough field, and they are intelligent and they are favorable. So why should we waste our time? There is no need. If you make your country, America, God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious—they are already—that will be example to the whole world. These men, rascals' program, will be failure, finished, this, today or tomorrow. They'll never be successful. It is not . . . that is not possible. If they have so foolishly declared that, "We are going above the laws of nature," they're first*-class rascals, which is impossible. What they have conquered over the nature? These rascals will not die? No, they'll still die. *Then? Then what is this? The rascals will not become old men? So what they have surpassed, laws of nature? What way? Simply making the teachers student and student teacher. Simply wasting time. Better you utilize your father's position, but for introducing our books to these high*-class men. Just you are trying to introduce books in the university libraries, similarly, you try to introduce these books to the high class. (aside to Dhṛṣṭadyumna) Do you think your father would give letters of introduction . . .? And that is not difficult. These men, they have got enough money. If they spend one thousand dollar for our books, that is nothing for them. One of your disciples, Praghoṣa, he's the biggest book distributor, practically. Tripurāri trained him up. He is now starting a program of meeting with these executives and doing just this. He is working in New York, and he's developing a program like this. Now in India also they are trying. Yaśomatī . . . Yaśodānandana's report is that he approached one head librarian in Andhra Pradesh and . . . Karnataka. Karnataka. Karnataka province, educated province, Karnataka, South India, Karnataka, very educated. So he has immediately ordered thirty sets of books in different libraries. He has appreciated so much. The professors in Bombay, some of them are already reviewing Prabhupāda's books very favorably. So you just touch the topmost men. But if, somehow or other, if you see some of the topmost men of the China, "You kindly read our books at your leisure." You can't approach those men. Then give it up. If it is too difficult, don't waste time. It's not only difficult, it's impossible. Then don't waste time. Completely impossible. Give up this idea. It may be possible in fifty years from now, but not now. That's all right. Our descendants will try for that. But let us try where it is favorable. Don't waste time. I mean, we were really, you know, just looking for any loophole, but there is no loophole. No hole. That's all right. We don't care for it. The man we spoke to, when he heard what we wanted to do, he said: "Boys, you're up against the wall." He said: "You're up against the Great Wall." China has a wall called the Great Wall. He said: "You've come up against the Great Wall." He says: "You'll never cross it." No, they'll be . . . nature's law is so strong that they are also trying to knock their head in the wall. They will themselves break their head. The laws of nature is the same. If you try to break the walls from this side and if they try to break the walls from that side, both of them will lose their head. So if they are so foolish . . . they are foolish. Everywhere such foolish men are there. They are trying to overcome the laws of nature. That is the greatest foolishness. That is the greatest foolishness. Just like government has got police force, military force, and if somebody tries to become . . . violate the laws of government by defying police force and military force, that is futile. Is it possible that, "I shall defy the government laws"? No, there is police force. There is military. "I don't care for that." It is foolishness. It is simply foolishness. Similarly, these laws of nature means the force of the Supreme. So if you want to defy, you may waste your time. It is not possible. And practically, Kṛṣṇa says: "Here I have enforced this miserable condition of material life." *Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu (BG 13.9). First of all surpass this, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . Then talk of surpassing the laws of nature. Can the Communists overcome, stopping old age? No Communist will be old man? Then what way you have surpassed the laws of nature? No Communist will die? Then where is your surpassing laws of nature? Ultimately you are under the grip of laws of nature. So what is the meaning of this foolish talking, that "I am going to surpass the laws of nature"? Show us first of all. Their goal is not so broad. They just want to control the flooding of the river. That means the little children's policy. Children, just like imagining so many things, "I shall do that. I shall do." The potter's imagination. You know that? Potter's imagination? You do not know the story? One potter is selling earthen pots, and he is saying that "Now, these two paisā , it has cost me one paisā . I shall make one paisā profit. Then I can make such profit. I shall invest again. I shall make another profit, another profit. In this way I shall become millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife shall be very obedient. And if he does not become obedient, I shall give him a kick like this." And he . . . what was . . . one pot was there; he kicked that pot and broke. (laughter) It broke. "Oh, again I am poor man." So this is going on, imagination. Imagination . . . "I shall become so great that I shall kick Kṛṣṇa's law," and whatever pot he had, broken. That's all. Rascals, simply rascals. If anyone thinks like that, that "I shall surpass the laws of nature," then he's madman. He's madman. So what is the use of dealing with madmen? And as soon as you challenge them that, "Show us that you have surpassed the laws of nature," "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do." That's all. This is their reply. *So it is better to avoid such men. But if you peacefully you can introduce, "All right, you will do. You are wonderful men, so kindly if you read some pages of this, it is not very costly. You can keep. At leisure hour you can read," in this way, imploring, then they will be benefited. That much we can do to any rascal. He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya dūrāt caitanya*-candra-caraṇe (Caitanya-candrāmṛta). "Oh, you are so nice; *therefore I am flattering you. I humbly obeisance. Kindly hear one thing. Keep some books. It is not very costly." Bās . This much you can do. And let them become puffed up by their false notions. But if they keep some books, sometimes they will read or their sons will read. That's all. Therefore I am stressing so much on books, that if the puffed*-up rascals take some book and sometimes, if they read, he'll be benefited, perfectly benefited. So distribute these books anywhere possible. It doesn't matter where it is. The same process. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya . The books will sell, that "You are rascal number one, you set aside whatever you learned. Read this." He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya : "You are very learned, but forget what you have learned, all rascaldom. Try to read this book." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate : "A rascal fool is very beautifully dressed, very nice seating. But his rascaldom will be disclosed as soon as he will speak." So these rascals, as soon as they speak, "We shall surpass the laws of nature," then we can understand what kind of rascals. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ . By their . . . these words we can take, "Oh, rascaldom," at once. "I shall break the wall. I shall push the mountains with head." It is like that. If somebody is thinking that "I shall push the Himalayan mountains by knocking with my head," then we can understand. So where it is? A rascal, the innocent, he is also rascal. But innocent is eager to become intelligent, so there we shall deal. And the stubborn atheists, they are dviṣat . They cannot be corrected immediately, unless they become ruined. (break) . . . their standard of life. Try for that. Concentrate in your country. There is no need of going . . . I was written, asking you that, that "If it is very hard job, don't try for that, useless waste of time." Incorrigible. So what is the use of going to a person . . .? We also researched a little bit about Russia. After we saw how it looked here—it was impossible—we were looking towards Russia. So we did some research on Russia also. There it's a little bit more open, but it's also, in terms of any kind of broad program, it is practically impossible. For example, distribution of books in Russia, there's only one company that buys the books. There's one import . . . So let him, one. Yes. And it's not even done personally. You do it through the mail. They don't . . . it's not a question of going and personally showing the books. Oh, then don't send. These are waste . . . Don't waste time and money. It is not possible. (break) It doesn't require . . . you can't influence a per . . . they don't have the power. A university does not have the power to buy the books. Then you do that. Don't do which is impossible. No, don't try for it. And China is ten times more closed than Russia. No, then stop this policy. Ask Gopāla not to go there. He can get the books in Russia . . . Through the mail . . . through the mail just as sucessfully as by going personally. Hmm. And that's nice. Try for that. (end) Conversation -- May 4, 1976, Honolulu . . . just on the Sunday easily. Charge them . . . you know, like in Los Angeles, we used to charge a dollar a . . . The loan will be clear very soon. Oh, yes. They have a . . . they are very expert at financing now, these . . . the men who are in charge now. They're claiming that within two or three months all of the debt will be completely cleared. They have a plan, very easily. (chuckles) He is the right person. Yes. And the restaurant is very successful. Also, they have not advertised that, but every day at least about fifty people come for the lunch, and at least another seventy, eighty people come in the evening for dinner. For a full meal each person pays an average of about $2.50. That's cheap. All you can eat for two dollars . . . And for public it is very cheap. Very inexpensive. And if they advertise it, they won't be able to handle all the people that will come. It's such a central location. It will be automatically advertised. When people will say: "Oh, there is a nice ISKCON restaurant, and it is so cheap and so nice," people will come. Just like in our Vṛndāvana temple, we don't advertise. Of course, that's . . . people are coming by thousands. Yes. Same here. I thought that so long distance from the city, nobody will come. But Balarāma is so powerful, He's bringing, "Come out here." (laughter) Otherwise, I was . . . what is that? Plowing? Yamunā was threatened. Oh, Balarāma. And the whole Kuru dynasty was threatened. Very good class of people are coming to the restaurant—businessmen, like that. And there is book display? Oh, yes. Oh, yes, there's a book display. They are purchasing book also? Yes. They give them a Back to Godhead , complimentary copy . . . Ācchā . . . . with the meal. And then they also purchase books. The buses are going on nicely. All the buses are out. Two more buses are being made now. Oh, you are adding two more. Yes. Well, we had almost finished two. They'll be added in June, so that will make eight, a total of eight. And they're having a normal program going on nicely. And Madhudviṣa Mahārāja also went to visit the other temples. He said in Boston they've gotten . . . (aside) I think they've already gotten it, right? That restaurant? Ambarīṣa Prabhu has gotten the most wonderful restaurant there, just around the corner from the temple. So it will be very, very high class restaurant, with waiters, and . . . Now, this New York restaurant being organized, other restaurant will follow. *This restaurant down here, I just was there. Gaura*-Govinda, he's the one who decorated it. First class. People really like it. From the very beginning I was asking to open restaurant and farm. Produce ghee in the farm and send to the restaurant, and make nice samosā, kachorī preparation, and there will be no scarcity of money. And if you organize in this way, your whole country will be transferred into Kṛṣṇa conscious country. Whole country. So, what about your China program? Well, we went to New York to meet with Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja's father, and he was very helpful. We approached him in a frank way, and he immediately got the help of his office. He's the president of this Far East American Council. Yes. *Yes. And not only China, this is for all of Asia. It includes as . . . some of the persons belonging to it are the . . . just like the chairman of Coca*-Cola, the Bankers Trust Company first vice-president, all of the big banks, Bank of America senior vice-president, First National City Bank vice-president, all of these men. So you can contract with all big, big men. Yes. And he's the president of the council. His father? Yes. Then he is very influential man. Very. So he immediately got . . . So you should be like father, like son. He has the same name. It's just "Junior" at the end, so they know him. No, intelligence also. Father's intelligence he must inherit. There is an Indian proverb, bāpakā beṭā sepāikā ghoḍā, kucha nehi to thoḍā thoḍā means, "The father's son and the soldier's horse, they acquire the quality, if not all, some; must." If one is good soldier, his horse is also trained up. There is a history in India. The horse has played heroic. The Queen of Jhansi's horse and this, our, what is called, Shivaji's horse, they have played unique part in the history. Sepāikā ghoḍā . It is animal, but because it is the horse of a famous hero, it has played. Similarly, the son of father must be as good as father. If not, to some extent. Yes. So you are the . . . your father is the leader of so many big, big businessmen. You also become leader. For Kṛṣṇa. Hmm? For Kṛṣṇa. Yes. And you have got the intelligence. I have seen. I have studied you. Now you combine. Both of you, you are intelligent. You turn the whole America Kṛṣṇa conscious. Bās . Then success all over the world. America is the leader of the nations. Now, if the America becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then our movement is perfectly successful. And you have got the potency in America. These men are all in Asia, though. His father's biggest concern . . . see, his father . . . the company is divided into two: the American branch of Seagrams, and the overseas, which incorporates the whole world outside of America. His father is the president of overseas. So his father has all connections with all of the embassies overseas, all of the big corporations overseas. So all these big, big men, let them have one set of books and study. It is not any expenditure for them, but if at their leisure hour they read some of the line—they are all intelligent men—they'll get ideas, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So through the influence of father, just try to introduce our books to these big men. It is not . . . they may keep them in library, and at leisure hour, if they simply glance over the line, oh, it will be great success. And their sons will also read it. Their sons also will read. Already my father has noticed in his travels that some of his friends, their sons have joined our movement now too. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ, lokas tad anuvartate ( BG 3.21). If these big men of the world, they take it, "Oh, yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine," then naturally it will be followed by the others. So here is a good opportunity to contact big men of the world. So utilize it properly. You . . . both of you are intelligent. Very cautiously deal with them. They will understand that, "Oh, these people are very honest men of character and high knowledge and God conscious." That will make our movement success. *His father has been giving us . . . of course, it was . . . we have been approaching him through the aspect of doing business in China. His father is encouraging us in the sense that he is seeing Dhṛṣṭadyumna . . . like whenever we visit him, we come in our suits, and his father is seeing that . . . he is encouraging him also because he's taking some . . . what he calls a very, what would you say, a responsible position, attempting to do some business. So he's been giving us letters on his company's letterhead. Just like this is a letter to the director of the Department of Commerce of the United States. We've seen a number of people. We've been visiting different directors. First thing we did when we went back is, after meeting him, we got many books on China. Some of the examples are, just like this. We read about twenty*-five books. We've studied up very thoroughly and researched everything about China. Here is a book, The Religious Policy and Practice in Communist China . It describes everything about religion there. So we thoroughly read this book. Then there's other books, books on education, we read books on history . . . Chinese people, they are trying to raise their standard of civilization. Do they? Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they . . . their philosophy is called dialectic materialism. They want to advance materially, and they . . . we have prepared one report of an interview with the president of a committee on United States and China relations. He's one of the leading experts in China. So after researching and studying all the educational, the libraries, all the different functions in China, we went and spoke with this gentleman. First we got a lot of information ourselves, so we'd be knowledgeable. We read for one month. We got . . . we wrote away to all the councils, we got hundreds of books like this, special reports about China. We read them, and then we went to meet this man, because he is the most knowledgeable, expert person on China in the United States. And we made up a report which we wanted to read to you, because it gives everything very nicely. It tells what China is doing now, and what our program can be for book distribution. No, what is their aim? After studying all these books, what do you think? What is the aim of China? What is the objective they are making progress towards? Their aim is that everyone should be materially comfortable. That no one . . . there should be no . . . In that case, they should, if they have got sense . . . just like in the whole world, these American people are materially comfortable. But why they are producing hippies now? They see this as a fault of the system, capitalism. They say that capitalism means the enjoyment of the few at the . . . Materialism means capitalism. Well, they want communistic materialism. In other words, by creating, forming communes, everyone will get equal portion of food and bedding and clothing and medicine. No, that is not the fact. A man's tendency is that everyone wants to get more. So how they will check it? This is already proved in Russia. They condemn Russia. They say Russia is a failure. And similarly, they will have to condemn. That's our conclusion. If they follow the wrong path, they will have the wrong result. This is not . . . *Their leader, Mao Tse*-tung, he was very austere, and he is very moral, and he has these purges where he takes the men who he sees are not . . . or who are trying to use their position for their own power, and he takes it away from them. And they are constantly going through these purges of their system to insure that no one enjoys more than others, at the expense of others. Artificial, though. So that is artificial way of. Unless one is prepared to . . . just like why they are inducing persons to sacrifice their accumulated wealth for the state? Why? Communistic idea that everyone should be equal. So if somebody has more than others, they want to take it away. Just like in India this policy is now growing. So everyone should give away, but now it is being done by law, by force. But that will not stay. We agree. Yes. We also agree it's a failure. Eh? It is bound to fail. Yes. Unless you voluntarily give, it will be failure. You will try to find out ways how you can take everything . . . just like income tax. The government is trying to take more money from the public, and public is hiding them in black market. This is going on. Nobody is . . . even your Nixon, he also hidden some money from the income tax. Why? He is the head of the government. So one side, he is head of the government, try to take money from the public, but he personally, himself, he is hiding. Why this defect? They will say that the system encourages man's greed, whereas their system . . . No, no, system . . . if the . . . you cannot change the mind. If you have got mind to enjoy more, by force if I try to force you not to enjoy more, give to the state, this is a struggle. This is not perfect process. They say that that will be corrected by education. Education . . . that means what is that education? They say that the . . . they don't . . . of course, we say education means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. Education means they must learn to sacrifice everything for the topmost. Well, they say the topmost is the general mass of everyone, the proletariat, all people combined. *That's all right, general. But you know how to make general mass of people happy. That example we give, that the whole body . . . you can make the whole body happy simply by supplying food to the stomach. That is the best way. And if you want to make happy every part of the body individual, that will never be successful. You must know where to touch. Just like the huge machine is going on by the expert manipulation of the pilot. He is pushing one works, immediately the plane becomes . . . it is . . . so you must know where to touch. If I am layman, I am put into that, then, instead of putting here, I shall put my here, and then it will go down, immediately " ohn*-ohn-ohn ," finished. So this is nature's way, that you supply food to the stomach, and the energy will be distributed every part. You supply water to the root of the tree, it will be supplied everywhere. That you must know. Otherwise, if you . . . just like if you do not know, a expert, not expert, so he's advised, "Give to, the food to the stomach." "And in where?" "No, in the hole of the body." If he does not, which hole, then he will put somewhere, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here. It will never act. Then you must know the science how to make everyone happy. If you do not know that, then your imperfect imagination will never be done, and that has become everywhere. Why there is difference of opinion even both of the communistic countries? Why there is difference of opinion between Russia and China? Because both of you do not know how to make everyone happy. That is the point. China has achieved great material strides in the last twenty years. There is no prostitution. They have wiped out flies, no more flies causing disease. There is . . . and they look to a very bitter past of exploitation at the hand of foreigners and internal civil war and great suffering and starvation. So when they look back over twenty years they see, "Oh, we have advanced greatly." So they are very satisfied. No, if they actually progressing, they will have to come to that point—that is natural—where, placing your service, you can serve everyone. That is the right conclusion. But we have got that right conclusion. If you take from us, you can make immediately. But if you want to wait by your research work, then you can waste your time. But you have to come to this point. That is a fact. Just like you have to give food to the mouth. If you do not know, out of rascaldom you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment . . . there are so many holes. You go on experimenting, and waste your time. But unless you come to this point that, "Food has to be supplied here," your all attempt will be failure. That you have to tell them. And because you cannot supersede nature's way . . . nature's way is, "The food must go through here." You cannot change it. You are not above nature. They say that you can become above nature. That is foolishness. That will make them failure. Oh, yes, they will fail. *That will make them failure. Tell them, then this will make them failure, "If you are so foolish that you want to go above nature, then you are fool number one." Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is not possible. That is not possible. Then you are following wrong path. If you are imagining like that, that "We have surpassed the laws of nature," then you are fool number one. In that respect they are like the Americans and Russians. They think that we can overcome the laws of nature. Eh? They are just like the Americans and Russians in the same way. They are thinking we can overcome the stringent laws of nature. No, that is the foolishness. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). So long they will have this impression that they can overcome the laws of nature they will continue to become mūḍha . Śrīla Prabhupāda, another problem . . . In which way you have surpassed nature? First of all, if you are thinking like that, in which way you have surpassed the nature? They say: "For example, before we began our agricultural development, there was very poor agricultural produce all over the country due to lack of proper water. Now we have laid huge irrigation systems, and there is no more drought." Therefore that is nature's way. Nature supplies you water. That is nature's way. That means you are making perfect according to the nature's way. But nature give you water; you produce profusely. But if you want to go above the nature, you produce without water. (laughs) It can't be done. Then we shall see that you have surpassed the laws of . . . the laws of nature is there must be water. Nature is supplying. And you are trying to imitate. But if you say that, "We can overpass the nature's law," then you produce without water. Then you'll be able. Then we shall see that you have gone above . . . this, you are following the nature's. That is not surpassing. That is following little properly. "Now you have arranged for water. That's very good. But if nature pours water, then you save so much labor. Do you know that, how nature will supply water profusely? You haven't got to make artificial arrangement for water. Do you know that?" Ask them. We know that. Formerly their society was very much like the Vedic culture. There was the emperor and the . . . Yes, it was . . . the Chinese people were coming, taking knowledge from . . . everyone was coming. So now argument that, "If you are . . . you are following the nature's way. Nature supply water. That is a fact. Here is cloud. Nature will supply. Now, if you want to surpass nature, then you produce in the factory, without water, food grains. Then we shall understand that you can surpass. As you are producing instruments and so many other motorcars and this, that, so many, in the factory, that's all right. In the factory you produce food grains without water. Then you have surpassed nature." They can't do it. No one can do it. Then where is the question of surpassing nature? Make them fool in every point, these rascals, by argument. Unfortunately, they do not teach any philosophy anymore. They have done away with all . . . This is not philosophy. Yes. This is science. This philosophy, it is science. Without water you cannot produce. This is science. This is not imagination. So if you want to surpass nature, then you do practically. Why should you try to bring canal water or well water? Don't bring. You cannot surpass the laws of nature. That has to be accepted. Their main point is that they want to manipulate expertly the laws of nature. That means let them waste their time. Therefore it requires many births to understand this law. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). And they're going away from this kind of understanding. They had a heritage of philosophical understanding, correct philosophical . . . they were very . . . for instance, their whole system during the time of Confucius . . . up until two or three hundred years ago their system was they had a monarchy, a king, an emperor, and the emperor was believed to be the representative of God. That is good. And it was Vedic. They had a brahmin community—they called them scholars—who were advising. And they had administrators, and they had workers. Now the current Communists, they are against that system. They say this system was the worst system of all because it made some big and some small. Because naturally it became . . . But you are doing the same thing. Otherwise, why you are reforming? Who is reforming unless the one class is very intelligent? The same system. You . . . your . . . what is your rascal's name? *Mao Tse*-tung. Mao. Mao. So he is supposed to be intelligent. He is supposed to be intelligent. So the two classes already there. Well, he says everyone can be equally intelligent. That is another thing. But these classes must remain there—the teacher class and the student class. Here's what they do. They take the teachers . . . this is one of their programs. Actually, we have written a report which explains. They take the teachers, and they send the teachers out into the factory and into the farms for years. So anywhere you send, the student and teacher class is there. You change the name, you change the process, it doesn't matter, but the student class and teacher class will always remain. That is your foolishness. You are simply changing different names. But originally, as planned by nature, that is always there. They say let the factory worker teach the teacher. Anyway, teacher class, rascal, it is teacher class. You make a teacher class. They say everyone should be teachers. That "Should be" means not. No, they are making everyone teachers. And this "making" means not. They are trying to make. That is all right. The classes, two classes, are there. You cannot change that. "trying," "making," means two. It's artificial. Yes. Just like they let the students teach the teachers. That's right. So the teachers . . . sometimes you become teacher, sometimes I become teacher. What is this? *They're trying to create a society where there are no superior*-inferior. That is not possible. Classless society. They are taking themselves the superior position to make equal. (laughs) Yes. That's a fact. Yes. Just like some of the rascal svāmīs come here that "There is no teacher of . . . no require teacher, no need of books." Then why do we need them? And these rascals are writing books, that "There is no need of book." That happened. One svāmī said: "Now you . . . meditation means don't think of anything." So then one of our men at the meeting raised his hand and said: "Then why do we need you?" So he got very angry. He said: "If the mind should do nothing, what do we need you for?" So what was his reply? He told his men to usher our man out. His men got very agitated because there was no reply. He couldn't give a reply. So they asked our man to leave for disturbing the sleeping of the public. Anyway, the whole world is rascal. They will manufacture and spoil time, their own time and others' time. Prabhupāda, we did a report telling . . . we wanted to read this to you. It gives you an idea of what are the possibilities of spreading your books or Kṛṣṇa consciousness in China. We made up a report for you. Do you want to hear it? Hmm. Okay, you want to read it, Dhṛṣṭadyumna? 'Cause it is actually very useful, if not now, in the future of our Soc . . . this report is based on a lot of research. Read. (break) . . . that if they are rascals, then don't try. You see? Reject them. But there is good potency in your country. You do peacefully here. If they are rascals, means stubborn rascals . . . You cannot imagine how rascal they are. That's why we wrote this report. I mean . . . Then don't try. Don't waste time. It's a . . . the Christians, they have a boat two hundred miles off the China coast, and they put little Bibles in cellophane bags and let the Bibles float into China. Balloons. Balloons. That's how hard it is to preach there. That is also nonsense. No, it's nonsense, but I mean the point is how difficult it is. We have . . . *Then don't try. Don't waste time. Don't try. Better try in your country. You have got enough field, and they are intelligent and they are favorable. So why should we waste our time? There is no need. If you make your country, America, God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious—they are already—that will be example to the whole world. These men, rascals' program, will be failure, finished, this, today or tomorrow. They'll never be successful. It is not . . . that is not possible. If they have so foolishly declared that, "We are going above the laws of nature," they're first*-class rascals, which is impossible. What they have conquered over the nature? These rascals will not die? No, they'll still die. *Then? Then what is this? The rascals will not become old men? So what they have surpassed, laws of nature? What way? Simply making the teachers student and student teacher. Simply wasting time. Better you utilize your father's position, but for introducing our books to these high*-class men. Just you are trying to introduce books in the university libraries, similarly, you try to introduce these books to the high class. (aside to Dhṛṣṭadyumna) Do you think your father would give letters of introduction . . .? And that is not difficult. These men, they have got enough money. If they spend one thousand dollar for our books, that is nothing for them. One of your disciples, Praghoṣa, he's the biggest book distributor, practically. Tripurāri trained him up. He is now starting a program of meeting with these executives and doing just this. He is working in New York, and he's developing a program like this. Now in India also they are trying. Yaśomatī . . . Yaśodānandana's report is that he approached one head librarian in Andhra Pradesh and . . . Karnataka. Karnataka. Karnataka province, educated province, Karnataka, South India, Karnataka, very educated. So he has immediately ordered thirty sets of books in different libraries. He has appreciated so much. The professors in Bombay, some of them are already reviewing Prabhupāda's books very favorably. So you just touch the topmost men. But if, somehow or other, if you see some of the topmost men of the China, "You kindly read our books at your leisure." You can't approach those men. Then give it up. If it is too difficult, don't waste time. It's not only difficult, it's impossible. Then don't waste time. Completely impossible. Give up this idea. It may be possible in fifty years from now, but not now. That's all right. Our descendants will try for that. But let us try where it is favorable. Don't waste time. I mean, we were really, you know, just looking for any loophole, but there is no loophole. No hole. That's all right. We don't care for it. The man we spoke to, when he heard what we wanted to do, he said: "Boys, you're up against the wall." He said: "You're up against the Great Wall." China has a wall called the Great Wall. He said: "You've come up against the Great Wall." He says: "You'll never cross it." No, they'll be . . . nature's law is so strong that they are also trying to knock their head in the wall. They will themselves break their head. The laws of nature is the same. If you try to break the walls from this side and if they try to break the walls from that side, both of them will lose their head. So if they are so foolish . . . they are foolish. Everywhere such foolish men are there. They are trying to overcome the laws of nature. That is the greatest foolishness. That is the greatest foolishness. Just like government has got police force, military force, and if somebody tries to become . . . violate the laws of government by defying police force and military force, that is futile. Is it possible that, "I shall defy the government laws"? No, there is police force. There is military. "I don't care for that." It is foolishness. It is simply foolishness. Similarly, these laws of nature means the force of the Supreme. So if you want to defy, you may waste your time. It is not possible. And practically, Kṛṣṇa says: "Here I have enforced this miserable condition of material life." *Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu (BG 13.9). First of all surpass this, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . Then talk of surpassing the laws of nature. Can the Communists overcome, stopping old age? No Communist will be old man? Then what way you have surpassed the laws of nature? No Communist will die? Then where is your surpassing laws of nature? Ultimately you are under the grip of laws of nature. So what is the meaning of this foolish talking, that "I am going to surpass the laws of nature"? Show us first of all. Their goal is not so broad. They just want to control the flooding of the river. That means the little children's policy. Children, just like imagining so many things, "I shall do that. I shall do." The potter's imagination. You know that? Potter's imagination? You do not know the story? One potter is selling earthen pots, and he is saying that "Now, these two paisā , it has cost me one paisā . I shall make one paisā profit. Then I can make such profit. I shall invest again. I shall make another profit, another profit. In this way I shall become millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife shall be very obedient. And if he does not become obedient, I shall give him a kick like this." And he . . . what was . . . one pot was there; he kicked that pot and broke. (laughter) It broke. "Oh, again I am poor man." So this is going on, imagination. Imagination . . . "I shall become so great that I shall kick Kṛṣṇa's law," and whatever pot he had, broken. That's all. Rascals, simply rascals. If anyone thinks like that, that "I shall surpass the laws of nature," then he's madman. He's madman. So what is the use of dealing with madmen? And as soon as you challenge them that, "Show us that you have surpassed the laws of nature," "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do." That's all. This is their reply. *So it is better to avoid such men. But if you peacefully you can introduce, "All right, you will do. You are wonderful men, so kindly if you read some pages of this, it is not very costly. You can keep. At leisure hour you can read," in this way, imploring, then they will be benefited. That much we can do to any rascal. He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya dūrāt caitanya*-candra-caraṇe (Caitanya-candrāmṛta). "Oh, you are so nice; *therefore I am flattering you. I humbly obeisance. Kindly hear one thing. Keep some books. It is not very costly." Bās . This much you can do. And let them become puffed up by their false notions. But if they keep some books, sometimes they will read or their sons will read. That's all. Therefore I am stressing so much on books, that if the puffed*-up rascals take some book and sometimes, if they read, he'll be benefited, perfectly benefited. So distribute these books anywhere possible. It doesn't matter where it is. The same process. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya . The books will sell, that "You are rascal number one, you set aside whatever you learned. Read this." He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya : "You are very learned, but forget what you have learned, all rascaldom. Try to read this book." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate : "A rascal fool is very beautifully dressed, very nice seating. But his rascaldom will be disclosed as soon as he will speak." So these rascals, as soon as they speak, "We shall surpass the laws of nature," then we can understand what kind of rascals. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ . By their . . . these words we can take, "Oh, rascaldom," at once. "I shall break the wall. I shall push the mountains with head." It is like that. If somebody is thinking that "I shall push the Himalayan mountains by knocking with my head," then we can understand. So where it is? A rascal, the innocent, he is also rascal. But innocent is eager to become intelligent, so there we shall deal. And the stubborn atheists, they are dviṣat . They cannot be corrected immediately, unless they become ruined. (break) . . . their standard of life. Try for that. Concentrate in your country. There is no need of going . . . I was written, asking you that, that "If it is very hard job, don't try for that, useless waste of time." Incorrigible. So what is the use of going to a person . . .? We also researched a little bit about Russia. After we saw how it looked here—it was impossible—we were looking towards Russia. So we did some research on Russia also. There it's a little bit more open, but it's also, in terms of any kind of broad program, it is practically impossible. For example, distribution of books in Russia, there's only one company that buys the books. There's one import . . . So let him, one. Yes. And it's not even done personally. You do it through the mail. They don't . . . it's not a question of going and personally showing the books. Oh, then don't send. These are waste . . . Don't waste time and money. It is not possible. (break) It doesn't require . . . you can't influence a per . . . they don't have the power. A university does not have the power to buy the books. Then you do that. Don't do which is impossible. No, don't try for it. And China is ten times more closed than Russia. No, then stop this policy. Ask Gopāla not to go there. He can get the books in Russia . . . Through the mail . . . through the mail just as sucessfully as by going personally. Hmm. And that's nice. Try for that. (end) Conversation -- May 5, 1976, Honolulu (offers obeisances) *So I was talking with Siddha*-svarup. So while you are all here, so what is the reason . . . (indistinct) . . .? We should work conjointly. And . . .? Jointly work. Don't make division. Yeah. What is the misunderstanding, settle up. This way. I spoke to him a bit last night, and he said, "If my instructions contradict Prabhupāda's . . ." Huh? He said to me last night, "If my instructions to you . . ." something like that, "contradict Prabhupāda's, then don't follow my instructions." (laughs) Who said? That's what he said. I mean, if he . . . I do not understand. *If he said that to Bhūrijana that, "If my instruction is contrary to Prabhupāda's instruction, then don't follow my instructions," that is to say that either he thinks that his instruction is the same as yours, or his instruction is different from yours and is not . . . (indistinct) . . . so far as . . . I spoke with Gurukṛpā Mahārāja, who's supposed to be GBC for Hawaii. He said that he has deviated. Siddha*-svarūpānanda Mahārāja has deviated. He has created a faction. And we're working together in ISKCON. So many individuals, we're working together to please Prabhupāda mutually. Yes. *So it's up to Siddha*-svarūpānanda Mahārāja's group to set the same standard that everyone has to accept. That seems to be the . . . *Now they are working together. Why Siddha*-svarūpā Mahārāja cannot remain here? I think he thinks everyone is in māyā , I think. It doesn't matter what he thinks. He's a disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) Yes. He causes trouble to Prabhupāda is not good. *The Siddha*-svarūpa group, they do not like to say clear. Is it not? Yeah, I see that. Very clearly I see that, yeah. So? What is the reason? What is the . . .? That I have already explained. So would you like me to do anything? What would you like me to do? I know I don't want to be independent. *Why you are inclined to follow Siddha*-svarūpa, your wife and you? What is special attraction? I think we needed . . . we needed some . . . we couldn't always be corresponding with you. I needed some personal instruction, so I took it. So first of all tell what is the special attraction. Your wife said that their instruction is very clear. So what is the distinction between clear and ambiguous? What do you find ambiguous and what do you find clear? What is that? I think the part I found clear is the more introspective points about humility, and changing one's desire . . . Humility means not to follow the instruction of guru ? That is not . . .? No, that is not humility. Then I'm asking you what is the special attraction. You say that . . . your wife says it is very clear. What is that clear and ambiguous? You mean what is ambiguous on . . . I mean, what is she saying that is ambiguous, or what . . . No. You say that is very clear what others are telling you. Now what is that ambiguous, what is that clear? The clearness may be a deeper understanding to want to be humble. A deeper understanding to want to . . . *Humble, but if you do not follow your spiritual master's instruction, if you follow others, then where is the humbleness? You say yes. This is yes, this is yes . . . (indistinct) . . . you said that your wife says that what Siddha*-svarūpa says, it is very clear and easy, and others are not so clear. Is it not? What is that clear Siddha-svarūpa says, and what is not clear? He says chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So who says that you don't chant? Maybe the emphasis wasn't so much on the chanting, even though everyone says harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam ( CC Adi 17.21), everyone just chants their sixteen rounds a day, chants a half hour ārati in the evening and half hour ārati in the morning. *So what do you want more? What is your program? Twenty*-four hours? I like more kīrtana than that. So you don't like to sell books. No, I think I like very much. I mean, I think I would like to. So what is difference? Between selling books and kīrtana ? No, no. Between others and you. Where is the difference? Why don't you point out that, "This is the point, we differ." What is that point? Well maybe the point about more kīrtana or less kīrtana . So if you chant more, is there objection? No. Then where is the objection? Has anyone objected, chant more? No. Then where is the objection? What is the point of difference? I think there's no point of difference. Then why do you say that we find these instructions more clear? You say that there's no point of difference, but then you choose that his instruction is more clear. There's some contradiction. It's just that emphasis that was given to Hari . . . to chanting. What is the difference? For myself, I know I was off track, and I know that in my heart I built up an enmity towards your disciples and thinking that they . . . that by their distributing books they were making people angry at Kṛṣṇa and . . . That is the real point. That is the real point. That's what I felt. See, when I was in Hong Kong, people I would meet, they used to yell . . . people, they'd yell at me, "What have you done to Kṛṣṇa?" Some Indians used to say that. People we'd meet, they'd tell us they see the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees and they hate Kṛṣṇa. . . . (indistinct) Well, this was . . . I remember one specific time when I was speaking to one businessman who was helping us and . . . He said that, "We hate Kṛṣṇa"? No, no. He said that, "Your members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're making people in Australia hate Kṛṣṇa. They make people inimical." Making people inimical to Kṛṣṇa. They feel threatened simply that we're preaching something which will discourage their sinful way of life. Therefore they feel threatened. Not they're hating. It hurts. Their argument is that because of our strong emphasis on preaching and book distrubtion, they say therefore that the mass of people, they have a bad impression of Kṛṣṇa. And also because . . . Because we are selling books. Because we're selling books. *Not so much the selling books. Maybe because of the emphasis on taking . . . how much money can be taken. Like if someone says on the street, "Please give me a donation." So they give him a donation. "No, you must give more," and more and more. So the people think that the devotees are only interested in getting money, and they get a bad impression that ISKCON is a money*-making movement. *We're selling one half a million large*-size books each year. The thing is that the materialists will always point out that they see the devotees, and we say that we renounce everything, but they don't understand that renunciation means to take everything and give it to Kṛṣṇa. So when . . . just like that time there was such a great commotion when we hired that Rolls Royce to take Your Divine Grace from the airport to the temple. So in the papers they didn't put anything that you said. They simply put "His Divine Grace is arriving in a Rolls Royce," like that. So this is the general attitude of the common mass of people. That is envious. So if they sell books, so that is making Kṛṣṇa unpopular? But one must learn to be a good book salesman, I think. But selling book, Kṛṣṇa, does it mean that the booksellers are creating unpopular opinion? Does it mean? Automatically, no. When you say that they're making enemies because they're pushing the sales, what is the wrong there? Actually, I can so far understand that you do not like to sell books, or you cannot sell books. Actually, I've never really tried. Eh? I've never really tried, 'cause I was in . . . Tried? I've never attempted very much. Those who are selling books, you think of them they're not very advanced. Errm, I don't think they can do it for very long. Eh? I don't think that they can continue for a very long time if they are not advanced. But actually they're doing. So why do you say they cannot continue long? No, he's saying that if they weren't . . . that they must be advanced, actually, if you look at it in the proper perspective. For those that were continually distributing, then the . . . (indistinct) . . . it's obvious that they must be advanced. Otherwise one could not do it for a very long time. When people . . . also it used to make me angry when people would collect money for . . . using lying terms, I mean say that they're collecting money for the welfare center here, or to feed the children here, or to bus the children there, and they'd collect money like that, but it wasn't very straightforward. Prabhupāda has many times given the instruction to the devotees that we should try as much as possible to distribute the books on their own merit. (break) . . . wanting this knowledge. But they . . . (break) . . . so much of the collecting was collecting, not distributing books. No, but the point is that Prabhupāda's instruction is there. But all the devotees want to hear is Prabhupāda also says "by hook or by crook." Sometimes it may be required to interest someone in a book, that they may find out their interest. Just like people are interested in philanthropic activity. Just like our . . . what is his name? Tripurāri? (laughter) Some lady inquired, "Is there any instruction about this power shortage?" "Oh, yes." (laughs) So she purchased, and the next day she said: "There is nothing about power shortage." So suppose Tripurāri has sold one book. The lady inquired, "Is there any Vedic instruction about power shortage?" And he said: "Yes." So you think it is wrong. That is your version. I think a simple lie like that is not bad. But a devotee's view is that whatever may be her inquiry, if she purchases one book, she'll be benefited. This is the point. But you, as big moralist, you, (laughs) you think that he has cheated. He has not cheated. He has benefited her, that somehow or other he has given a book to her. Someday she'll read and she'll benefit. But you people, you think no why we should sell like that, that "Yes, there is solution of power shortage." Actually there is, but you think that he has lied. Just like there are . . . sometimes the father's child is suffering from fever. So the father wants that the child may take the medicine and promises, "You take the medicine. I'll give you this cake." The purpose is not to give the cake, a cake. The purpose is the child may take the medicine. That is the purpose. But when the father promises that, "If you take the medicine I'll give you this cake." But cake is dangerous for the child who is suffering from fever, but still the father allures him, "If you take the medicine and I'll give the cake." So is the father wrong or right? No. So similarly, similarly, if somehow or other one can sell one book to a person, it is good for him. Don't take how he is selling, but he's giving the book to that person and he's paying something, and that is good. But big moralist, they cannot understand. They'll see, "Why the father has spoken lie to his son? He's not a good father." They'll mistake. Father is always friend. Father cannot be enemy. But for the benefit of the rascal child sometimes he has to say like that, that "If you take the medicine I'll give you this cake." So those who are mundane moralist, they cannot understand these things, because they are mundane platform. The another example is that Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. He was asked by Kṛṣṇa that, "You speak lie to Dronācārya that, 'Your son is dead.' " Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused. For this he had to see hell. He was more moralist than Kṛṣṇa. For this moral activity he had to visit hell. This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is . . . why we are pushing, so much giving stress on books? Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles. Just as Arjuna did. Arjuna was arguing with Kṛṣṇa that, "This killing of my relatives, it is very abominable. Better I beg and maintain myself than I kill my relatives and become a king." Did he not say? So that is ordinary man's argument. But as Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused to speak lie . . . so, and Arjuna, in spite of his conviction that "It is sinful to kill my relatives," he still agreed to kill. Why? That is supreme moral, Kṛṣṇa's desire. What Kṛṣṇa desires, if one does, he's above all this material. But it should not be manufactured. The thing is that, "Our spiritual master wants to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he has repeatedly stressed to distribute books, we shall distribute books by any means," that is good. That is good. And if you become moralist that, "Oh, they're taking this means, that means for selling of book, so I'm big moralist. I'm bigger than him." I don't think there is so much enmity because of the books themselves. No, I think that . . . I do not know what they are doing, but I have information that they're not selling books. Some, I think. I think some. But not . . . Comparable amount. Certainly not. Yes. Others who were transgressing the moral principle, they were selling more books. Much more. And those who are big moralists, they could not. *They're also distributing one pamphlet printed by Siddha*-svarūpānanda. And then if they like, then they can buy one of Prabhupāda's books. Prabhupāda's book comes second. Sometimes I've heard so many things. But they give those away for free. I mean, just in the sense that someone maybe doesn't want to purchase anything, so they give him something for free about Kṛṣṇa. First they do that. Only because it's free. Not that a . . . as far as I know. They get knowledge free, then why they should purchase? If you give them the opportunity that we take material, knowledge free, then why they will purchase? Like if we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious without following the rules and regulations, why follow the rules and regulations? That's what I was thinking a while ago. They should follow what their spiritual master says. Book selling, there is no question of moral and immoral. We must sell. Just like in fighting. Where there is fight, the soldiers, to gain victory, there is no question of moral and immoral. He must gain victory. Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think the thing I understand least is that if they are not doing what you want . . . I mean . . . I'm sitting before you now, and you're telling me and I'm listening, and you are my spiritual master, and I must accept. We want that book selling must be increased as much as possible. This we want. The same principle: let the child take medicine, never mind the father is speaking lies. That is . . . because as soon as he takes the medicine he'll be benefited. End justifies the means. End is that everyone should have a Kṛṣṇa literature. Doesn't matter what is the means. Because he has taken one Kṛṣṇa literature, that justifies everything. This is the principle. How about the just collecting without giving any literature? Just collecting. Three months ago I saw it in Australia, with a lying line, too, I mean not telling the truth. And that wasn't very long ago. . . . (indistinct) Sometimes the devotees just distribute with incense. Hmm? They go out and distribute incense. Nothing. They collect and distribute incense. Sometimes they don't distribute books. And then maybe if they're having to pay off a loan on the temple. The general instruction is there, and all the devotees are well aware of it, that Prabhupāda's books have first priority. Everyone knows it. The consciousness is there. It's not a consciousness of not giving anything and taking. Prabhupāda's point is that if you see fault with the method of implementing the spiritual master's instructions, you'll fail to follow the instructions. No, the point is not that they have not done any wrong. Don't think like that. But my point, that is, my instruction is the books must be pushed. I understand. In other words, if you think they're doing it wrong, you do it better. If you see the wrong thing . . . but do it. Make sure you do it, but do it better without the wrong, then. Yes. I feel that this is . . . huh. Besides that . . . (end) Conversation -- May 5, 1976, Honolulu (offers obeisances) *So I was talking with Siddha*-svarup. So while you are all here, so what is the reason . . . (indistinct) . . .? We should work conjointly. And . . .? Jointly work. Don't make division. Yeah. What is the misunderstanding, settle up. This way. I spoke to him a bit last night, and he said, "If my instructions contradict Prabhupāda's . . ." Huh? He said to me last night, "If my instructions to you . . ." something like that, "contradict Prabhupāda's, then don't follow my instructions." (laughs) Who said? That's what he said. I mean, if he . . . I do not understand. *If he said that to Bhūrijana that, "If my instruction is contrary to Prabhupāda's instruction, then don't follow my instructions," that is to say that either he thinks that his instruction is the same as yours, or his instruction is different from yours and is not . . . (indistinct) . . . so far as . . . I spoke with Gurukṛpā Mahārāja, who's supposed to be GBC for Hawaii. He said that he has deviated. Siddha*-svarūpānanda Mahārāja has deviated. He has created a faction. And we're working together in ISKCON. So many individuals, we're working together to please Prabhupāda mutually. Yes. *So it's up to Siddha*-svarūpānanda Mahārāja's group to set the same standard that everyone has to accept. That seems to be the . . . *Now they are working together. Why Siddha*-svarūpā Mahārāja cannot remain here? I think he thinks everyone is in māyā , I think. It doesn't matter what he thinks. He's a disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) Yes. He causes trouble to Prabhupāda is not good. *The Siddha*-svarūpa group, they do not like to say clear. Is it not? Yeah, I see that. Very clearly I see that, yeah. So? What is the reason? What is the . . .? That I have already explained. So would you like me to do anything? What would you like me to do? I know I don't want to be independent. *Why you are inclined to follow Siddha*-svarūpa, your wife and you? What is special attraction? I think we needed . . . we needed some . . . we couldn't always be corresponding with you. I needed some personal instruction, so I took it. So first of all tell what is the special attraction. Your wife said that their instruction is very clear. So what is the distinction between clear and ambiguous? What do you find ambiguous and what do you find clear? What is that? I think the part I found clear is the more introspective points about humility, and changing one's desire . . . Humility means not to follow the instruction of guru ? That is not . . .? No, that is not humility. Then I'm asking you what is the special attraction. You say that . . . your wife says it is very clear. What is that clear and ambiguous? You mean what is ambiguous on . . . I mean, what is she saying that is ambiguous, or what . . . No. You say that is very clear what others are telling you. Now what is that ambiguous, what is that clear? The clearness may be a deeper understanding to want to be humble. A deeper understanding to want to . . . *Humble, but if you do not follow your spiritual master's instruction, if you follow others, then where is the humbleness? You say yes. This is yes, this is yes . . . (indistinct) . . . you said that your wife says that what Siddha*-svarūpa says, it is very clear and easy, and others are not so clear. Is it not? What is that clear Siddha-svarūpa says, and what is not clear? He says chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So who says that you don't chant? Maybe the emphasis wasn't so much on the chanting, even though everyone says harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam ( CC Adi 17.21), everyone just chants their sixteen rounds a day, chants a half hour ārati in the evening and half hour ārati in the morning. *So what do you want more? What is your program? Twenty*-four hours? I like more kīrtana than that. So you don't like to sell books. No, I think I like very much. I mean, I think I would like to. So what is difference? Between selling books and kīrtana ? No, no. Between others and you. Where is the difference? Why don't you point out that, "This is the point, we differ." What is that point? Well maybe the point about more kīrtana or less kīrtana . So if you chant more, is there objection? No. Then where is the objection? Has anyone objected, chant more? No. Then where is the objection? What is the point of difference? I think there's no point of difference. Then why do you say that we find these instructions more clear? You say that there's no point of difference, but then you choose that his instruction is more clear. There's some contradiction. It's just that emphasis that was given to Hari . . . to chanting. What is the difference? For myself, I know I was off track, and I know that in my heart I built up an enmity towards your disciples and thinking that they . . . that by their distributing books they were making people angry at Kṛṣṇa and . . . That is the real point. That is the real point. That's what I felt. See, when I was in Hong Kong, people I would meet, they used to yell . . . people, they'd yell at me, "What have you done to Kṛṣṇa?" Some Indians used to say that. People we'd meet, they'd tell us they see the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees and they hate Kṛṣṇa. . . . (indistinct) Well, this was . . . I remember one specific time when I was speaking to one businessman who was helping us and . . . He said that, "We hate Kṛṣṇa"? No, no. He said that, "Your members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're making people in Australia hate Kṛṣṇa. They make people inimical." Making people inimical to Kṛṣṇa. They feel threatened simply that we're preaching something which will discourage their sinful way of life. Therefore they feel threatened. Not they're hating. It hurts. Their argument is that because of our strong emphasis on preaching and book distrubtion, they say therefore that the mass of people, they have a bad impression of Kṛṣṇa. And also because . . . Because we are selling books. Because we're selling books. *Not so much the selling books. Maybe because of the emphasis on taking . . . how much money can be taken. Like if someone says on the street, "Please give me a donation." So they give him a donation. "No, you must give more," and more and more. So the people think that the devotees are only interested in getting money, and they get a bad impression that ISKCON is a money*-making movement. *We're selling one half a million large*-size books each year. The thing is that the materialists will always point out that they see the devotees, and we say that we renounce everything, but they don't understand that renunciation means to take everything and give it to Kṛṣṇa. So when . . . just like that time there was such a great commotion when we hired that Rolls Royce to take Your Divine Grace from the airport to the temple. So in the papers they didn't put anything that you said. They simply put "His Divine Grace is arriving in a Rolls Royce," like that. So this is the general attitude of the common mass of people. That is envious. So if they sell books, so that is making Kṛṣṇa unpopular? But one must learn to be a good book salesman, I think. But selling book, Kṛṣṇa, does it mean that the booksellers are creating unpopular opinion? Does it mean? Automatically, no. When you say that they're making enemies because they're pushing the sales, what is the wrong there? Actually, I can so far understand that you do not like to sell books, or you cannot sell books. Actually, I've never really tried. Eh? I've never really tried, 'cause I was in . . . Tried? I've never attempted very much. Those who are selling books, you think of them they're not very advanced. Errm, I don't think they can do it for very long. Eh? I don't think that they can continue for a very long time if they are not advanced. But actually they're doing. So why do you say they cannot continue long? No, he's saying that if they weren't . . . that they must be advanced, actually, if you look at it in the proper perspective. For those that were continually distributing, then the . . . (indistinct) . . . it's obvious that they must be advanced. Otherwise one could not do it for a very long time. When people . . . also it used to make me angry when people would collect money for . . . using lying terms, I mean say that they're collecting money for the welfare center here, or to feed the children here, or to bus the children there, and they'd collect money like that, but it wasn't very straightforward. Prabhupāda has many times given the instruction to the devotees that we should try as much as possible to distribute the books on their own merit. (break) . . . wanting this knowledge. But they . . . (break) . . . so much of the collecting was collecting, not distributing books. No, but the point is that Prabhupāda's instruction is there. But all the devotees want to hear is Prabhupāda also says "by hook or by crook." Sometimes it may be required to interest someone in a book, that they may find out their interest. Just like people are interested in philanthropic activity. Just like our . . . what is his name? Tripurāri? (laughter) Some lady inquired, "Is there any instruction about this power shortage?" "Oh, yes." (laughs) So she purchased, and the next day she said: "There is nothing about power shortage." So suppose Tripurāri has sold one book. The lady inquired, "Is there any Vedic instruction about power shortage?" And he said: "Yes." So you think it is wrong. That is your version. I think a simple lie like that is not bad. But a devotee's view is that whatever may be her inquiry, if she purchases one book, she'll be benefited. This is the point. But you, as big moralist, you, (laughs) you think that he has cheated. He has not cheated. He has benefited her, that somehow or other he has given a book to her. Someday she'll read and she'll benefit. But you people, you think no why we should sell like that, that "Yes, there is solution of power shortage." Actually there is, but you think that he has lied. Just like there are . . . sometimes the father's child is suffering from fever. So the father wants that the child may take the medicine and promises, "You take the medicine. I'll give you this cake." The purpose is not to give the cake, a cake. The purpose is the child may take the medicine. That is the purpose. But when the father promises that, "If you take the medicine I'll give you this cake." But cake is dangerous for the child who is suffering from fever, but still the father allures him, "If you take the medicine and I'll give the cake." So is the father wrong or right? No. So similarly, similarly, if somehow or other one can sell one book to a person, it is good for him. Don't take how he is selling, but he's giving the book to that person and he's paying something, and that is good. But big moralist, they cannot understand. They'll see, "Why the father has spoken lie to his son? He's not a good father." They'll mistake. Father is always friend. Father cannot be enemy. But for the benefit of the rascal child sometimes he has to say like that, that "If you take the medicine I'll give you this cake." So those who are mundane moralist, they cannot understand these things, because they are mundane platform. The another example is that Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. He was asked by Kṛṣṇa that, "You speak lie to Dronācārya that, 'Your son is dead.' " Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused. For this he had to see hell. He was more moralist than Kṛṣṇa. For this moral activity he had to visit hell. This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is . . . why we are pushing, so much giving stress on books? Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles. Just as Arjuna did. Arjuna was arguing with Kṛṣṇa that, "This killing of my relatives, it is very abominable. Better I beg and maintain myself than I kill my relatives and become a king." Did he not say? So that is ordinary man's argument. But as Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused to speak lie . . . so, and Arjuna, in spite of his conviction that "It is sinful to kill my relatives," he still agreed to kill. Why? That is supreme moral, Kṛṣṇa's desire. What Kṛṣṇa desires, if one does, he's above all this material. But it should not be manufactured. The thing is that, "Our spiritual master wants to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he has repeatedly stressed to distribute books, we shall distribute books by any means," that is good. That is good. And if you become moralist that, "Oh, they're taking this means, that means for selling of book, so I'm big moralist. I'm bigger than him." I don't think there is so much enmity because of the books themselves. No, I think that . . . I do not know what they are doing, but I have information that they're not selling books. Some, I think. I think some. But not . . . Comparable amount. Certainly not. Yes. Others who were transgressing the moral principle, they were selling more books. Much more. And those who are big moralists, they could not. *They're also distributing one pamphlet printed by Siddha*-svarūpānanda. And then if they like, then they can buy one of Prabhupāda's books. Prabhupāda's book comes second. Sometimes I've heard so many things. But they give those away for free. I mean, just in the sense that someone maybe doesn't want to purchase anything, so they give him something for free about Kṛṣṇa. First they do that. Only because it's free. Not that a . . . as far as I know. They get knowledge free, then why they should purchase? If you give them the opportunity that we take material, knowledge free, then why they will purchase? Like if we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious without following the rules and regulations, why follow the rules and regulations? That's what I was thinking a while ago. They should follow what their spiritual master says. Book selling, there is no question of moral and immoral. We must sell. Just like in fighting. Where there is fight, the soldiers, to gain victory, there is no question of moral and immoral. He must gain victory. Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think the thing I understand least is that if they are not doing what you want . . . I mean . . . I'm sitting before you now, and you're telling me and I'm listening, and you are my spiritual master, and I must accept. We want that book selling must be increased as much as possible. This we want. The same principle: let the child take medicine, never mind the father is speaking lies. That is . . . because as soon as he takes the medicine he'll be benefited. End justifies the means. End is that everyone should have a Kṛṣṇa literature. Doesn't matter what is the means. Because he has taken one Kṛṣṇa literature, that justifies everything. This is the principle. How about the just collecting without giving any literature? Just collecting. Three months ago I saw it in Australia, with a lying line, too, I mean not telling the truth. And that wasn't very long ago. . . . (indistinct) Sometimes the devotees just distribute with incense. Hmm? They go out and distribute incense. Nothing. They collect and distribute incense. Sometimes they don't distribute books. And then maybe if they're having to pay off a loan on the temple. The general instruction is there, and all the devotees are well aware of it, that Prabhupāda's books have first priority. Everyone knows it. The consciousness is there. It's not a consciousness of not giving anything and taking. Prabhupāda's point is that if you see fault with the method of implementing the spiritual master's instructions, you'll fail to follow the instructions. No, the point is not that they have not done any wrong. Don't think like that. But my point, that is, my instruction is the books must be pushed. I understand. In other words, if you think they're doing it wrong, you do it better. If you see the wrong thing . . . but do it. Make sure you do it, but do it better without the wrong, then. Yes. I feel that this is . . . huh. Besides that . . . (end) Conversation -- May 7, 1976, Honolulu First business, how to get our books . . . (indistinct) . . . (loud kirtan in background) For Russia, export from India will be favorable. So government paper we are printing seven, eight rupees price. Make that addition, all the books. Ask them to take paper from the government, huge quantity, and all these books should be published immediately, five thousand copies. Five thousand copies each. Yes, if possible. Minimum one thousand. Last time when we were speaking, I was mentioning to you that in Russia they are particularly inclined towards an exchange program of books, where we give our books and they will give some useless books. So . . . (indistinct) . . . why should we do this? You mentioned last time you will throw them away. For us there is no readable books in the whole world. No. We cannot waste our time. No, of course. But is there any . . . I mean, of course we would like to . . . But only some of the authorized books, just to take their parts and to refute; otherwise, we haven't got to take lesson from anyone. No. This is a fact. All rascal speculators, what value they have got? Supposing there are many thousands of libraries in Russia and they are agreeable to placing, say, one of our books of each book in each of the libraries, but they are not willing to purchase all of these books, but they are willing to give us some book in exchange? Will we make this sacrifice? Because it will represent a loss of money. No, if you can arrange for selling those books at any cost. We can arrange to sell our books to them at any cost? No, no, exchange. We can sell. There is some set resale value. Then we can realize some money. Yes, then it is all right. They'll have value. There will be some money. We can request them to send us samples of the books that they will return to us. Then we can . . . Find out cost. Some shopkeepers, stores. Some return. If we can get our cost price of the books. We should get cost price. Not should, but must as far as possible. I've heard that in Russia the people are so eager to read imported literature that any literature appears they immediately buy it. Yes. There's a black market going on in Russia, particularly black market on books. Books are smuggled into the country and sold, and they're very dearly read. People are very anxious. Yes. They must be, because they are keeping in darkness. Yes. *These nasty countries, in the name of giving them material facility, they'll kill them, even they're independent. Such a horrible country. How people can tolerate loss of independence? It is very horrible. I am sitting here twenty*-four hours, this is another thing; but if I understand that I cannot go out, I have to sit down here, oh, it is horrible. It is a horrible condition. Simply this impression that I have to keep myself within this room, although I am keeping myself, I am not going, only for walk maybe. But if the impression is that I cannot go out from this room, then my life is lost. This is psychology. So they are keeping their young men. They are not allowed to go out of the country, in Russia. Similarly in China. Even more so. So what kind of government it is? It is a horrible government. And they are hackney only in literature. These Communist country, the people are forced to accept the government regulation. And that is all bad. I have seen in Moscow, generally the people are morose, their face not very happy. They are also European. They want freedom to go here and there. They have no such freedom. And poor. The taxi driver—first of all there is scarcity of taxi; you cannot get taxi. Even in Moscow, big city. Yes. That Professor Kotovsky, I asked him, "Please arrange for a taxi." . . . (indistinct) . . . "Well, Swāmījī, this is Moscow." (laughter) So he came down up to the gate—he was very courteous—he showed me, "Swāmījī, go this way, three, four lane, then you'll find a short lane, and then you go this way, this way, then you get to your hotel." He showed me some short cut way, short cut personally. They . . . he could not call a taxi. And somewhere we went, we got a taxi, private taxi, and that man was begging for more than the fare. That means the system . . . "Can you not give me little more?" That means the system is a failure. And then I could understand. And they have got that there is tourist bus, taking here and there, that bus is third class. Even less opulent than in India. How many days were you there? One week. Short. You were only in Moscow? That is the rich city. People are fighting to get into that city. They only allow so many people to live there. Everything restricted. You cannot just decide to move to Moscow. You cannot do that. You must take permission from the government to live in Moscow. Everything . . . and we could not get nice food. There was no nice rice, wheat, fruit, flour—nothing. Fruit means the strawberries. Only. I don't remember we could get any other fruit. Perhaps you went at a bad season. No, no. Everything is controlled. Whatever government will give you, you have to accept. And all the stores, it is just like, what is called? The old? Grocery store? Antique, antique. Antique shop. That means no purchaser. People have no p . . . no bank. People have no money; simply bare necessities of life their government supplies. And bus transport, buses standing in one place, best time, and people are running after. Women, men, mostly they walk. Or bicycles. Bicycle, I did not . . . I think they must all wear the same clothes. I did not study so much. Yes, there is no gorgeousness. In China they all wear the same clothes. Whatever you saw in Russia, China is ten times more oppressive. It is much more oppressive. They say that Russia is a complete failure, because they are allowing so much looseness. The Chinese are accusing the Russians of being very loose and very capitalistic inclined. China is very dissatisfied that Russians have given up the principles of Marx and they have taken after the Western ways, preferring one group above another group. Because Russia was afraid of another Revolution. People were preparing. So much pressure, intolerance, after all they are Europeans, so there was a chance of revolution. Especially after Stalin. So many people were killed and sent to prison camps. That was the way that they enforced . . . Stalin is calculated to be greatest criminal in the world. He has killed so many men. All rogues. We were taken through the neighborhood of all aristocratic men who were killed in the Revolution. *While reading about China, one of the books I was reading also described Cambodia, Vietnam and Korea. And the recent histories of these countries are so horrible, that the . . . mostly in that part of the world now they have become totally anti*-American. They are very, very anti-American because of what the Ameri . . . the Americans have simply gone there and . . . Not Korea. Huh? No, Korea, also there was Americans. North Koreans don't love Americans. No, not north Koreans, South Koreans. But now Korea is united. No. Oh, yes, I've been reading. They hate the Americans in North Korea. In North Korea they hate the Americans. Ācchā. North Korea is Communist. Trivikrama has left Korea now. He went, and he has left. He's in Japan. Oh. He could not do anything? I don't know. He has left there. He went for three weeks and left. Now he's in Japan. I don't know where. He's doing something. If he could not do anything, he can come back to America. What do you think? I think that it's good for him to come back to America. He's been away from America for five or six years now. Yes, let him come back. He can preach in colleges. It would be a very purifying experience. Being by oneself for so long in that part of the world is very difficult. To remain alone is risky. (pause) Now China wants to control India. And also Russia. Also Russia. China would have attacked. They once attempted, American implemented. They are thinking that because the officers are corrupt, the people are dissatisfied, and if we go they will welcome. Exactly correct. Oh, yes, it's a perfect analysis. Yes. They believe that the . . . of course, it's a fact, the leaders are very corrupt, but the people want the change, that's what they believe. "And if we go, the people will work with us and overthrow this government and establish a true communistic government, a government for all of the benefit of the people." That's their idea. They feel that way about the whole world, the Chinese. They feel in America also—of course that's nonsense—but they think like that, that in America there is a huge working class, and the working class are feeling oppressed. But that's nonsense. I think American working class are paid more than any country. The average income in the United States now . . . Even a bricklayer. You know a man who lays bricks, a man who just lays bricks, bricklayer? In India he gets paid ten rupees a day. Utmost. And here he gets paid twelve dollars an hour. Bricklayer. Yes, twelve dollars an hour. So one hundred dollars a day. Oh, it is impossible to engage. Oh, yeah. Very expensive. Construction worker, just to build a simple building, they charge construction about nine dollars an hour, every man, minimum, unskilled man, nine dollars an hour. Then, how it will be possible? We were discussing this. The way to do it is that you get some person . . . there are many persons all over the country who are knowledgeable, who can do the work, but who are friendly. Just like in many temples that I visited, they have people, professionals who are working, but they are young men, and because they are friendly towards our Society, they'll do the work for less money. I'm sure that there are people who can be found like that here. American devotee, Asian and Australian devotee. I think it can be done amongst our devotees. Hmm. We are not very anxious to get it done immediately. We shall do slowly. So we are . . . me and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, we have organized the saṅkīrtana here. The saṅkīrtana should increase about ten times. Before they were doing three hundred dollars a day; now they should be doing at about one thousand three hundred dollars a day. That is nice. Therefore I think if we have profit, fifty percent can go for books and fifty percent can be banked. And when they have enough money, then we can build the temple. But it's the only question . . . No, with what . . . whatever collection is there, fifty percent, go on. Why wait? And what about my collections in Japan? We also spend here for the time. 'Cause I will be getting nice collections this year. Yes. I will bank it here? Eh? It should come here? Yes, yes. The construction in Māyāpur . . . It's just that I don't have . . . You have paid? *From Rādhā*-Dāmodara party? Yes. We were doing that, previous to the Māyāpur festival. Yes. You are also, you have promised you have continued. Here, there . . . there is no temple. Must be constructed. Do you think . . . some of the devotees were expressing that maybe in the front would be better, then they could come in off the street. Otherwise they have to go around the . . . Huh? If the building was built in the front, some people were thinking this might be a better spot, because if there's no sun back here . . . Hmm. . . . then it becomes very muddy there. What is the area here? Oh, it's bigger. Bigger? Yes. And they say these neighbors back here are the ones that do all the complaining. So some were expressing that this might be better; they could come in off the street. Also, many tourists come to Hawaii, and if we make it very nice, then they can . . . many tourist buses may come here to see the temple. So if it is near the gate then you'll come right out. But it's just that I have no knowledge of how to build anything. Who? Myself, how to go about it. I don't have any experience or knowledge of that. No, you have no experience. I know. So that Australian boy who works constantly, there is one temple . . . Bhāskara. Bhāskara, yeah. He's in New York. He can come and help. He'll be free pretty soon. Someone has to organize for the construction, though. That's the main thing. Then later the inside. In Māyāpur they are completing the, er, that building? They had begun that long residential building. Which one? The one while we were there. Uhuh. I remember they were doing the first . . . ground floor. I think you told them to . . . They are completing. What about the other side? That side also. Exhibition hall. That side also scheduled to begin. And Bombay also has to be finished. Hmm. So sufficient funds have to be sent for completing Bombay in ten months' time and for those two buildings in Māyāpur. Bombay, the slab is laid, temple. Latest letter? Yeah. Giridhārī. And the tower . . . (indistinct) Really? I think it will be finished earlier. Jaya. Any more news on the attempt of the government to take it back? The government, I know it will be unable to take. They cannot acquire temple. There is no such law. And even they acquire, we shall say, "All right take it . . . (indistinct) . . ." And the Hindus will . . . (indistinct) . . . to neglect, "All right, we will do it." We could write a book. A book should be written about the Bombay . . . Yes, that . . . one lady, Nirmala. Yes, Dr. Singhal's wife. Yes, she has already sent some article, why it is not published? Yeah, whenever I see her she always asks: "Why they don't publish?" Yes, and they inquire. So we should start to make enquiry now throughout the world, how to push these books forward. Just as you are pointing out—sending books from India to Russia—in this way there may be so many arrangements. Oh, yes. Just find out what is the venues to push our books. As much as possible. Should I concentrate my time for this? Yes, only. This will be your only business. All over the world, see how the books can be pushed. In their language or in English. Now we have got several languages. You have seen the latest Portuguese edition? Spanish. Spanish. You have seen? I don't think I have. Give it to him. It's on the bottom shelf. Last. This one? Last, last book. Yes. Phew, very handsome. Yes, they have done very nice. Yes. That's the idea. If books like this can be introduced, I'm certain that every single Spanish embassy around the world will take a book like this for their library. And there's plenty of them. There's many nations. *And you can sell standing order of all the languages. So they will take. And the get*-up is so nice. Beautiful. Yeah, that book is nice, the color is good. This is printed in America also. American books. Printed in . . . EUA. USA. USA. In this way, if possible, print in Russian language, in black market. Yes, that's possible, and they'll be eager. The young people are dissatisfied, young student. Small books print, first of all. See how the black market takes it, and then big books. There is also all of the Eastern European countries. Yes, they have got black market. There must be intermediate man who deals in black market. There is. *Oh, yes. Give them. Let them make good profit. We want to put up, that's all. And let them take money, we don't mind. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. When there is trickery, you become trickery. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. Kṛṣṇa's play, those who are plain, Kṛṣṇa is very kind and plain. Those who are tricky, "All right, I am also tricky." We shall adopt all the means of the materialistic person, simply for Kṛṣṇa. (break) Just like Kṛṣṇa's rāsa dance. Any materialistic person at the dead of night will be glad to dance with young girls. What is the difference? (break) But because it was Kṛṣṇa's dancing, so this association of the woman with Kṛṣṇa is taken by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the first*-class worship. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā. Kṛṣṇa also became little tricky with the gopīs, "Oh, you have come at dead of night? What your husband, father would think? And there are so many ferocious animals in the jungle. Please get out immediately." You have read that? Mmm. Hmm. And the gopīs were thinking, "What this rascal says . . . say?" (chuckles) They are so sorry, that "We have come, leaving everything and this rascal is giving us moral instruction." This is love: they can chastise Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . somehow or other, black market, white market, red market, let them make. And as soon as there is taste, there will be very good demand. And this black marketeer will make profit and they'll do. This Chinese policy or the Russian policy will not stand. Simply we require to make ourselves strong. As soon as we become stronger than the Communist movement, we shall finish everyone. Finish everyone? Yes. You mean attack them? That I shall tell later. You become little strong. We cannot allow them. Because Kṛṣṇa's policy is, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam ( BG 4.8). You have to take that policy. In Vṛndāvana, one day on a walk, you were saying that Kṛṣṇa's soldiers will walk all over the world, and they will approach everyone and say: "Do you believe in Kṛṣṇa?" And if they say: "No," immediately, kill them. Yes. Not kill them with weapon, but kill them by saṅkīrtana. They are already dead. So physical killing is for very big, big, strong man like Mao, or this Lenin, like that. Not common people. They have to be shown mercy. More a question of revival for the common people. More a question of revival. If they allow us to forward our movement, then we are satisfied. And when there is hindrance, the person who is hindering, finished. But don't do it now, (chuckles) then you will be finished. Do you think the time will come when we will . . .? Oh, yes. Because Kṛṣṇa has two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam (BG 4.8). We are for delivering all people. Anyone who will put hindrance, then we have to finish. Not small; big. Yes. That is going on all over the world, politics. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, he also . . . That is the way everywhere. (break) They will be automatically finished. Just like the Ramakrishna Mission, who are advertising that they have done wonderful importance. They are now finished. They are simply making false propaganda in India. Actually, they have got fangs. What is called, fangs? Phans? The poison teeth? Fangs. Fangs, fangs. That is broken. So make . . . first of all try to push books everywhere, all over the world. They have got so many languages, like Russian or . . . black market. Chinese also. Black market, they cannot check. Oh, no, and you don't need permission either. No. And there's more profit, too. Yes. In black market. And yes, if there is demand, then you will make good profit also. And there will be demand. They'll be big demand for your books. Very big, very big. *They trans . . . sent one translation of Tulasi dāsa's Rāma*-caritra-mānasa . It was sold, all, in a week. And therefore they have stopped now. Wow, really? Yes. *It is Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . *They sent stocks, Bhagavad*-gītā . Sometimes I wonder that—of course, we want our books to be translated by our own men—but in the absence of sufficient translators . . . Any way. That thing, you see, that our men means they know the philosophy. Others, they do not know. That is the difficulty. Supposing we have—I'm just using this hypothetical . . . Any, "our man" who knows Russian language, he should check. Professionals may translate, but one of our men may check? Yes, just like our books are being done in Germany now. Yes. Yeah, then you can have quite a few books translated. Because if we only depend on our men for the entire translating work, it will never get done. No, no. Then get professional man, but he may not create the havoc. *No, he must be checked by someone who knows. Whew, this is exciting. I'd love to see your Bhagavad*-gītā , the most widely-read black market book in Russia. Then that will create revolution. *Whew. These books are very revolutionary. You are very strong. You have put everything in a very clear*-cut, strong words. You have attacked everyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious as fools and rascals. (laughs) This is a fact. It is not exaggeration. In your article in Back to Godhead about Marx, you call him a . . . what is that? Nonsense. A nonsense. You call him "Marx is nonsense." Yes, what is his philosophy? Dialectitude? Dialectic Materialism. So, we have written one Dialectic Spiritualism. Harikeśa's. Harikeśa. Yes, he read it to us in India. He's preaching, I think, in Eastern Europe sometimes. We got a report. Has he written you? Yes. I heard that, but is he being all right or not? From the report it appears that he goes occasionally into some Eastern European countries. Mostly he's concentrating in England, Germany and Scandinavias. He has a party, and they are doing speaking engagements and distributing books. And sometimes he went in . . . which countries? Czechoslovakia, Hungary. He went to Budapest. He is going to some Communist European countries. They make their vans with false bottoms, and they hide the books underneath, so at the border they do not see. Underneath the van is all your books. When they get in the country then they distribute the books to these students. Revolution. It is very nice. Sometimes he said when he's speaking, the translator will not say what he is saying because it's . . . Sometimes he forgets—usually he speaks very carefully, guarded words. But once or twice he says . . . he starts speaking direct Krishna consciousness, and the translator looks at him and won't translate it into the local language. Sometimes he forgets himself and starts speaking about Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the translator suddenly looks at him. Usually he covers everything. He has done a good job. He is a fit person, very intelligent. So in this way . . . you are all intelligent; you can plan. The aim is how to distribute books. That is first consideration. (break) In Bhāgavata it is very figuratively described that we have got this body and the different parts. Just like Arjuna is sitting on the chariot. There is chariot driver, there are horses, reins, there is wheel, and the arrow and the bow. They have been figuratively . . . so this can be used for killing the enemies of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and then give up all this paraphernalia, chariot, wheel. Just like after fighting, only victory, then you kill them. And similarly this body is there, the mind is there, the senses are there. So utilize it for conquering over this material existence. And then give up your body and go back to home. Does the devotee . . . I mean, just like you are always enthusing us to push on . . . *That is sharpening your weapons. That is also described. By serving the spiritual master, you keep your weapon always sharpened. And then take help from Kṛṣṇa, the words of spiritual master sharpen weapon, and yasya prasādad bhagavata . . . and the spiritual master is happy, then Kṛṣṇa immediately will help. He gives you strength. Suppose you have got a sword, sharpened sword. But if you have no strength, what will you do with the sword? Kṛṣṇa will give you the strength, how to fight and kill the enemies. Everything is described. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu, guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya (CC Madhya 19.151). Make your weapon sharpened by the instruction of the spiritual master, and then Kṛṣṇa will give you strength, you'll be able to conquer. This figurative explanation I think last night I give. Here is a verse, acyuta-balaḥ, acyuta-balaḥ (SB 7.15.45). Is Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa here? (calls out) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? We are soldiers of Kṛṣṇa, servant of Arjuna. Simply we have to act accordingly, then you will finish our enemies. They have no power, although their number is hundred times. Just like Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, they have no power, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BG 18.78). Keep Kṛṣṇa in your side, then everything will be successful. Tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtiḥ . Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have to go now, catch our airplane. You'll be coming to America in about a month's time? Three weeks. I think so. Three weeks. Three weeks. *The Ratha*-yātrā in New York is taking place on July 18th. So I think it's . . . So if I go earlier in New York, my place is available? Oh, yeah. If you like to come it's ready. It'll be ready for you. Hmm, I want to go. I want to see how this new building is . . . Utilized. Because I went there in New York, no place to stay. It is very engladdening we have got now nice building. This place is the best facility we have in the movement. (break) *Baladeva means Nityānanda. Nitāiyer karuṇā habe braje rādhā*-kṛṣṇa pābe . In this way I was praying. Balarām hoile nitāi . So this word bolo I . . . (indistinct) . . . it is supported by Vedic version: nāyam ātmā bala-hinena labhyaḥ . Without Baladeva . . . give this garland to him and this flower to that boy . . . (indistinct) (end) Conversation -- May 7, 1976, Honolulu First business, how to get our books . . . (indistinct) . . . (loud kirtan in background) For Russia, export from India will be favorable. So government paper we are printing seven, eight rupees price. Make that addition, all the books. Ask them to take paper from the government, huge quantity, and all these books should be published immediately, five thousand copies. Five thousand copies each. Yes, if possible. Minimum one thousand. Last time when we were speaking, I was mentioning to you that in Russia they are particularly inclined towards an exchange program of books, where we give our books and they will give some useless books. So . . . (indistinct) . . . why should we do this? You mentioned last time you will throw them away. For us there is no readable books in the whole world. No. We cannot waste our time. No, of course. But is there any . . . I mean, of course we would like to . . . But only some of the authorized books, just to take their parts and to refute; otherwise, we haven't got to take lesson from anyone. No. This is a fact. All rascal speculators, what value they have got? Supposing there are many thousands of libraries in Russia and they are agreeable to placing, say, one of our books of each book in each of the libraries, but they are not willing to purchase all of these books, but they are willing to give us some book in exchange? Will we make this sacrifice? Because it will represent a loss of money. No, if you can arrange for selling those books at any cost. We can arrange to sell our books to them at any cost? No, no, exchange. We can sell. There is some set resale value. Then we can realize some money. Yes, then it is all right. They'll have value. There will be some money. We can request them to send us samples of the books that they will return to us. Then we can . . . Find out cost. Some shopkeepers, stores. Some return. If we can get our cost price of the books. We should get cost price. Not should, but must as far as possible. I've heard that in Russia the people are so eager to read imported literature that any literature appears they immediately buy it. Yes. There's a black market going on in Russia, particularly black market on books. Books are smuggled into the country and sold, and they're very dearly read. People are very anxious. Yes. They must be, because they are keeping in darkness. Yes. *These nasty countries, in the name of giving them material facility, they'll kill them, even they're independent. Such a horrible country. How people can tolerate loss of independence? It is very horrible. I am sitting here twenty*-four hours, this is another thing; but if I understand that I cannot go out, I have to sit down here, oh, it is horrible. It is a horrible condition. Simply this impression that I have to keep myself within this room, although I am keeping myself, I am not going, only for walk maybe. But if the impression is that I cannot go out from this room, then my life is lost. This is psychology. So they are keeping their young men. They are not allowed to go out of the country, in Russia. Similarly in China. Even more so. So what kind of government it is? It is a horrible government. And they are hackney only in literature. These Communist country, the people are forced to accept the government regulation. And that is all bad. I have seen in Moscow, generally the people are morose, their face not very happy. They are also European. They want freedom to go here and there. They have no such freedom. And poor. The taxi driver—first of all there is scarcity of taxi; you cannot get taxi. Even in Moscow, big city. Yes. That Professor Kotovsky, I asked him, "Please arrange for a taxi." . . . (indistinct) . . . "Well, Swāmījī, this is Moscow." (laughter) So he came down up to the gate—he was very courteous—he showed me, "Swāmījī, go this way, three, four lane, then you'll find a short lane, and then you go this way, this way, then you get to your hotel." He showed me some short cut way, short cut personally. They . . . he could not call a taxi. And somewhere we went, we got a taxi, private taxi, and that man was begging for more than the fare. That means the system . . . "Can you not give me little more?" That means the system is a failure. And then I could understand. And they have got that there is tourist bus, taking here and there, that bus is third class. Even less opulent than in India. How many days were you there? One week. Short. You were only in Moscow? That is the rich city. People are fighting to get into that city. They only allow so many people to live there. Everything restricted. You cannot just decide to move to Moscow. You cannot do that. You must take permission from the government to live in Moscow. Everything . . . and we could not get nice food. There was no nice rice, wheat, fruit, flour—nothing. Fruit means the strawberries. Only. I don't remember we could get any other fruit. Perhaps you went at a bad season. No, no. Everything is controlled. Whatever government will give you, you have to accept. And all the stores, it is just like, what is called? The old? Grocery store? Antique, antique. Antique shop. That means no purchaser. People have no p . . . no bank. People have no money; simply bare necessities of life their government supplies. And bus transport, buses standing in one place, best time, and people are running after. Women, men, mostly they walk. Or bicycles. Bicycle, I did not . . . I think they must all wear the same clothes. I did not study so much. Yes, there is no gorgeousness. In China they all wear the same clothes. Whatever you saw in Russia, China is ten times more oppressive. It is much more oppressive. They say that Russia is a complete failure, because they are allowing so much looseness. The Chinese are accusing the Russians of being very loose and very capitalistic inclined. China is very dissatisfied that Russians have given up the principles of Marx and they have taken after the Western ways, preferring one group above another group. Because Russia was afraid of another Revolution. People were preparing. So much pressure, intolerance, after all they are Europeans, so there was a chance of revolution. Especially after Stalin. So many people were killed and sent to prison camps. That was the way that they enforced . . . Stalin is calculated to be greatest criminal in the world. He has killed so many men. All rogues. We were taken through the neighborhood of all aristocratic men who were killed in the Revolution. *While reading about China, one of the books I was reading also described Cambodia, Vietnam and Korea. And the recent histories of these countries are so horrible, that the . . . mostly in that part of the world now they have become totally anti*-American. They are very, very anti-American because of what the Ameri . . . the Americans have simply gone there and . . . Not Korea. Huh? No, Korea, also there was Americans. North Koreans don't love Americans. No, not north Koreans, South Koreans. But now Korea is united. No. Oh, yes, I've been reading. They hate the Americans in North Korea. In North Korea they hate the Americans. Ācchā. North Korea is Communist. Trivikrama has left Korea now. He went, and he has left. He's in Japan. Oh. He could not do anything? I don't know. He has left there. He went for three weeks and left. Now he's in Japan. I don't know where. He's doing something. If he could not do anything, he can come back to America. What do you think? I think that it's good for him to come back to America. He's been away from America for five or six years now. Yes, let him come back. He can preach in colleges. It would be a very purifying experience. Being by oneself for so long in that part of the world is very difficult. To remain alone is risky. (pause) Now China wants to control India. And also Russia. Also Russia. China would have attacked. They once attempted, American implemented. They are thinking that because the officers are corrupt, the people are dissatisfied, and if we go they will welcome. Exactly correct. Oh, yes, it's a perfect analysis. Yes. They believe that the . . . of course, it's a fact, the leaders are very corrupt, but the people want the change, that's what they believe. "And if we go, the people will work with us and overthrow this government and establish a true communistic government, a government for all of the benefit of the people." That's their idea. They feel that way about the whole world, the Chinese. They feel in America also—of course that's nonsense—but they think like that, that in America there is a huge working class, and the working class are feeling oppressed. But that's nonsense. I think American working class are paid more than any country. The average income in the United States now . . . Even a bricklayer. You know a man who lays bricks, a man who just lays bricks, bricklayer? In India he gets paid ten rupees a day. Utmost. And here he gets paid twelve dollars an hour. Bricklayer. Yes, twelve dollars an hour. So one hundred dollars a day. Oh, it is impossible to engage. Oh, yeah. Very expensive. Construction worker, just to build a simple building, they charge construction about nine dollars an hour, every man, minimum, unskilled man, nine dollars an hour. Then, how it will be possible? We were discussing this. The way to do it is that you get some person . . . there are many persons all over the country who are knowledgeable, who can do the work, but who are friendly. Just like in many temples that I visited, they have people, professionals who are working, but they are young men, and because they are friendly towards our Society, they'll do the work for less money. I'm sure that there are people who can be found like that here. American devotee, Asian and Australian devotee. I think it can be done amongst our devotees. Hmm. We are not very anxious to get it done immediately. We shall do slowly. So we are . . . me and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, we have organized the saṅkīrtana here. The saṅkīrtana should increase about ten times. Before they were doing three hundred dollars a day; now they should be doing at about one thousand three hundred dollars a day. That is nice. Therefore I think if we have profit, fifty percent can go for books and fifty percent can be banked. And when they have enough money, then we can build the temple. But it's the only question . . . No, with what . . . whatever collection is there, fifty percent, go on. Why wait? And what about my collections in Japan? We also spend here for the time. 'Cause I will be getting nice collections this year. Yes. I will bank it here? Eh? It should come here? Yes, yes. The construction in Māyāpur . . . It's just that I don't have . . . You have paid? *From Rādhā*-Dāmodara party? Yes. We were doing that, previous to the Māyāpur festival. Yes. You are also, you have promised you have continued. Here, there . . . there is no temple. Must be constructed. Do you think . . . some of the devotees were expressing that maybe in the front would be better, then they could come in off the street. Otherwise they have to go around the . . . Huh? If the building was built in the front, some people were thinking this might be a better spot, because if there's no sun back here . . . Hmm. . . . then it becomes very muddy there. What is the area here? Oh, it's bigger. Bigger? Yes. And they say these neighbors back here are the ones that do all the complaining. So some were expressing that this might be better; they could come in off the street. Also, many tourists come to Hawaii, and if we make it very nice, then they can . . . many tourist buses may come here to see the temple. So if it is near the gate then you'll come right out. But it's just that I have no knowledge of how to build anything. Who? Myself, how to go about it. I don't have any experience or knowledge of that. No, you have no experience. I know. So that Australian boy who works constantly, there is one temple . . . Bhāskara. Bhāskara, yeah. He's in New York. He can come and help. He'll be free pretty soon. Someone has to organize for the construction, though. That's the main thing. Then later the inside. In Māyāpur they are completing the, er, that building? They had begun that long residential building. Which one? The one while we were there. Uhuh. I remember they were doing the first . . . ground floor. I think you told them to . . . They are completing. What about the other side? That side also. Exhibition hall. That side also scheduled to begin. And Bombay also has to be finished. Hmm. So sufficient funds have to be sent for completing Bombay in ten months' time and for those two buildings in Māyāpur. Bombay, the slab is laid, temple. Latest letter? Yeah. Giridhārī. And the tower . . . (indistinct) Really? I think it will be finished earlier. Jaya. Any more news on the attempt of the government to take it back? The government, I know it will be unable to take. They cannot acquire temple. There is no such law. And even they acquire, we shall say, "All right take it . . . (indistinct) . . ." And the Hindus will . . . (indistinct) . . . to neglect, "All right, we will do it." We could write a book. A book should be written about the Bombay . . . Yes, that . . . one lady, Nirmala. Yes, Dr. Singhal's wife. Yes, she has already sent some article, why it is not published? Yeah, whenever I see her she always asks: "Why they don't publish?" Yes, and they inquire. So we should start to make enquiry now throughout the world, how to push these books forward. Just as you are pointing out—sending books from India to Russia—in this way there may be so many arrangements. Oh, yes. Just find out what is the venues to push our books. As much as possible. Should I concentrate my time for this? Yes, only. This will be your only business. All over the world, see how the books can be pushed. In their language or in English. Now we have got several languages. You have seen the latest Portuguese edition? Spanish. Spanish. You have seen? I don't think I have. Give it to him. It's on the bottom shelf. Last. This one? Last, last book. Yes. Phew, very handsome. Yes, they have done very nice. Yes. That's the idea. If books like this can be introduced, I'm certain that every single Spanish embassy around the world will take a book like this for their library. And there's plenty of them. There's many nations. *And you can sell standing order of all the languages. So they will take. And the get*-up is so nice. Beautiful. Yeah, that book is nice, the color is good. This is printed in America also. American books. Printed in . . . EUA. USA. USA. In this way, if possible, print in Russian language, in black market. Yes, that's possible, and they'll be eager. The young people are dissatisfied, young student. Small books print, first of all. See how the black market takes it, and then big books. There is also all of the Eastern European countries. Yes, they have got black market. There must be intermediate man who deals in black market. There is. *Oh, yes. Give them. Let them make good profit. We want to put up, that's all. And let them take money, we don't mind. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. When there is trickery, you become trickery. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. Kṛṣṇa's play, those who are plain, Kṛṣṇa is very kind and plain. Those who are tricky, "All right, I am also tricky." We shall adopt all the means of the materialistic person, simply for Kṛṣṇa. (break) Just like Kṛṣṇa's rāsa dance. Any materialistic person at the dead of night will be glad to dance with young girls. What is the difference? (break) But because it was Kṛṣṇa's dancing, so this association of the woman with Kṛṣṇa is taken by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the first*-class worship. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā. Kṛṣṇa also became little tricky with the gopīs, "Oh, you have come at dead of night? What your husband, father would think? And there are so many ferocious animals in the jungle. Please get out immediately." You have read that? Mmm. Hmm. And the gopīs were thinking, "What this rascal says . . . say?" (chuckles) They are so sorry, that "We have come, leaving everything and this rascal is giving us moral instruction." This is love: they can chastise Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . somehow or other, black market, white market, red market, let them make. And as soon as there is taste, there will be very good demand. And this black marketeer will make profit and they'll do. This Chinese policy or the Russian policy will not stand. Simply we require to make ourselves strong. As soon as we become stronger than the Communist movement, we shall finish everyone. Finish everyone? Yes. You mean attack them? That I shall tell later. You become little strong. We cannot allow them. Because Kṛṣṇa's policy is, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam ( BG 4.8). You have to take that policy. In Vṛndāvana, one day on a walk, you were saying that Kṛṣṇa's soldiers will walk all over the world, and they will approach everyone and say: "Do you believe in Kṛṣṇa?" And if they say: "No," immediately, kill them. Yes. Not kill them with weapon, but kill them by saṅkīrtana. They are already dead. So physical killing is for very big, big, strong man like Mao, or this Lenin, like that. Not common people. They have to be shown mercy. More a question of revival for the common people. More a question of revival. If they allow us to forward our movement, then we are satisfied. And when there is hindrance, the person who is hindering, finished. But don't do it now, (chuckles) then you will be finished. Do you think the time will come when we will . . .? Oh, yes. Because Kṛṣṇa has two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam (BG 4.8). We are for delivering all people. Anyone who will put hindrance, then we have to finish. Not small; big. Yes. That is going on all over the world, politics. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, he also . . . That is the way everywhere. (break) They will be automatically finished. Just like the Ramakrishna Mission, who are advertising that they have done wonderful importance. They are now finished. They are simply making false propaganda in India. Actually, they have got fangs. What is called, fangs? Phans? The poison teeth? Fangs. Fangs, fangs. That is broken. So make . . . first of all try to push books everywhere, all over the world. They have got so many languages, like Russian or . . . black market. Chinese also. Black market, they cannot check. Oh, no, and you don't need permission either. No. And there's more profit, too. Yes. In black market. And yes, if there is demand, then you will make good profit also. And there will be demand. They'll be big demand for your books. Very big, very big. *They trans . . . sent one translation of Tulasi dāsa's Rāma*-caritra-mānasa . It was sold, all, in a week. And therefore they have stopped now. Wow, really? Yes. *It is Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . *They sent stocks, Bhagavad*-gītā . Sometimes I wonder that—of course, we want our books to be translated by our own men—but in the absence of sufficient translators . . . Any way. That thing, you see, that our men means they know the philosophy. Others, they do not know. That is the difficulty. Supposing we have—I'm just using this hypothetical . . . Any, "our man" who knows Russian language, he should check. Professionals may translate, but one of our men may check? Yes, just like our books are being done in Germany now. Yes. Yeah, then you can have quite a few books translated. Because if we only depend on our men for the entire translating work, it will never get done. No, no. Then get professional man, but he may not create the havoc. *No, he must be checked by someone who knows. Whew, this is exciting. I'd love to see your Bhagavad*-gītā , the most widely-read black market book in Russia. Then that will create revolution. *Whew. These books are very revolutionary. You are very strong. You have put everything in a very clear*-cut, strong words. You have attacked everyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious as fools and rascals. (laughs) This is a fact. It is not exaggeration. In your article in Back to Godhead about Marx, you call him a . . . what is that? Nonsense. A nonsense. You call him "Marx is nonsense." Yes, what is his philosophy? Dialectitude? Dialectic Materialism. So, we have written one Dialectic Spiritualism. Harikeśa's. Harikeśa. Yes, he read it to us in India. He's preaching, I think, in Eastern Europe sometimes. We got a report. Has he written you? Yes. I heard that, but is he being all right or not? From the report it appears that he goes occasionally into some Eastern European countries. Mostly he's concentrating in England, Germany and Scandinavias. He has a party, and they are doing speaking engagements and distributing books. And sometimes he went in . . . which countries? Czechoslovakia, Hungary. He went to Budapest. He is going to some Communist European countries. They make their vans with false bottoms, and they hide the books underneath, so at the border they do not see. Underneath the van is all your books. When they get in the country then they distribute the books to these students. Revolution. It is very nice. Sometimes he said when he's speaking, the translator will not say what he is saying because it's . . . Sometimes he forgets—usually he speaks very carefully, guarded words. But once or twice he says . . . he starts speaking direct Krishna consciousness, and the translator looks at him and won't translate it into the local language. Sometimes he forgets himself and starts speaking about Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the translator suddenly looks at him. Usually he covers everything. He has done a good job. He is a fit person, very intelligent. So in this way . . . you are all intelligent; you can plan. The aim is how to distribute books. That is first consideration. (break) In Bhāgavata it is very figuratively described that we have got this body and the different parts. Just like Arjuna is sitting on the chariot. There is chariot driver, there are horses, reins, there is wheel, and the arrow and the bow. They have been figuratively . . . so this can be used for killing the enemies of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and then give up all this paraphernalia, chariot, wheel. Just like after fighting, only victory, then you kill them. And similarly this body is there, the mind is there, the senses are there. So utilize it for conquering over this material existence. And then give up your body and go back to home. Does the devotee . . . I mean, just like you are always enthusing us to push on . . . *That is sharpening your weapons. That is also described. By serving the spiritual master, you keep your weapon always sharpened. And then take help from Kṛṣṇa, the words of spiritual master sharpen weapon, and yasya prasādad bhagavata . . . and the spiritual master is happy, then Kṛṣṇa immediately will help. He gives you strength. Suppose you have got a sword, sharpened sword. But if you have no strength, what will you do with the sword? Kṛṣṇa will give you the strength, how to fight and kill the enemies. Everything is described. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu, guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya (CC Madhya 19.151). Make your weapon sharpened by the instruction of the spiritual master, and then Kṛṣṇa will give you strength, you'll be able to conquer. This figurative explanation I think last night I give. Here is a verse, acyuta-balaḥ, acyuta-balaḥ (SB 7.15.45). Is Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa here? (calls out) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? We are soldiers of Kṛṣṇa, servant of Arjuna. Simply we have to act accordingly, then you will finish our enemies. They have no power, although their number is hundred times. Just like Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, they have no power, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BG 18.78). Keep Kṛṣṇa in your side, then everything will be successful. Tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtiḥ . Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have to go now, catch our airplane. You'll be coming to America in about a month's time? Three weeks. I think so. Three weeks. Three weeks. *The Ratha*-yātrā in New York is taking place on July 18th. So I think it's . . . So if I go earlier in New York, my place is available? Oh, yeah. If you like to come it's ready. It'll be ready for you. Hmm, I want to go. I want to see how this new building is . . . Utilized. Because I went there in New York, no place to stay. It is very engladdening we have got now nice building. This place is the best facility we have in the movement. (break) *Baladeva means Nityānanda. Nitāiyer karuṇā habe braje rādhā*-kṛṣṇa pābe . In this way I was praying. Balarām hoile nitāi . So this word bolo I . . . (indistinct) . . . it is supported by Vedic version: nāyam ātmā bala-hinena labhyaḥ . Without Baladeva . . . give this garland to him and this flower to that boy . . . (indistinct) (end) Conversation -- May 12, 1976, Honolulu Where did he get this idea, not to trust me? . . . (indistinct) So that's what I was trying to ask. Huh? That's what I was trying to ask. Hmm? That was the reason that I was trying to ask those questions. He has become impersonal. He is simply out of the jurisdiction of personal care. The guru is personal or Kṛṣṇa is impersonal? He speaks of the guru principle and that his spiritual master is within his heart, and that . . . and he doesn't accept the personal service of the physical manifestation. He does not understand. Don't . . . (indistinct) . . . who cares for his philosophy? Not for very long. I am simply concerned for him. That is natural, but if he wants to avoid being saved, then how can you save him? Yes. If he wants to commit suicide, then who can save him? He will do it . . . (indistinct) He's downstairs in the morning. What he doing? I don't know. I stay up here during ārati in case you mean . . . Govinda? Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- May 12, 1976, Honolulu Where did he get this idea, not to trust me? . . . (indistinct) So that's what I was trying to ask. Huh? That's what I was trying to ask. Hmm? That was the reason that I was trying to ask those questions. He has become impersonal. He is simply out of the jurisdiction of personal care. The guru is personal or Kṛṣṇa is impersonal? He speaks of the guru principle and that his spiritual master is within his heart, and that . . . and he doesn't accept the personal service of the physical manifestation. He does not understand. Don't . . . (indistinct) . . . who cares for his philosophy? Not for very long. I am simply concerned for him. That is natural, but if he wants to avoid being saved, then how can you save him? Yes. If he wants to commit suicide, then who can save him? He will do it . . . (indistinct) He's downstairs in the morning. What he doing? I don't know. I stay up here during ārati in case you mean . . . Govinda? Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- May 13, 1976, Honolulu . . . cannot say sometimes it is dark. (coughs) Is that truth, that sun is sometimes dark, sometimes light? This is their intelligence. But we have to be guided by these rascals. That is the dangerous position in the modern world. All the leaders are rascals: religious, political, social. Any field of activities, just try to advise us. Now this Indira Gandhi is convicted: "You must leave your post. It is taken." Just see, (s)he is the guidance of the whole nation, and (s)he is a culprit. Where is that, the secure? The mother is killing child, you see. And the prime minister is a thief; the president is a rogue. This is the . . . in your country, big country, and a big rogue. And India, it is big country also, culture, there is a thief. The mother is the best shelter for child. She is mother, then where is protection? (child crying in background) This is going on. The mother is no more shelter; *the king is no more protector. Then? Where is shelter? This is the . . . and long, long ago, at least three thousand years ago, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita warned, viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja*-kuleṣu ca : "Government men and women should not be trusted." This is the . . . and this, they elected the woman politician. Why she does become victim? (devotee laughs) *I think yesterday I was talking that this Indira Gandhi was going to the hospital for abortion, twice times in a year. That is discussed . . . (indistinct) . . . there are many, Indira Gandhi—we don't wish to discuss—but she is, that is . . . she has no culture, no character, she's not very much educated. But anyway, so*-called education, what is the value? And she is leader. Whatever she says, that is final. I think somebody told me that Nixon, "Resign on condition from . . . (indistinct)" *Yeah. It is secret, but it is well*-accepted fact. So Ford pardoned him. So that means he is dishonest. Yes. For his post as president he played this dishonesty. Yes. He made a deal. Yes. It is the king's duty to see that there must be judgment for culprit and innocent. But from the very beginning, start, the judgment is in favor of the rogue. Then how we can expect justice? Beginning is dishonesty. Anyway, this should be reduced. They do not want character. No religion, no character. That's a different . . . That is why they will consider us . . . consider this philosophy—the people in power—they will consider this philosophy very dangerous to them, because it would make it so that they could not plunder so easily. Hmm? It would make it so they can't plunder as easily. The people have some knowledge, then it won't be as easy for the leaders to plunder, to exploit. So they don't want the people to have this knowledge. *Then our preaching is finished. There is a story of this "have knowledge." One brahmin , he was very much poverty*-stricken, so he could not find any things, valuable. Very poverty-stricken. So he knew one gang of thieves, so he went there. He met that chief, gang, "Sir, I know you. I have no . . . (indistinct) . . . so I have come to you. You can also take me as one of you . . . (indistinct) . . . I can steal." So "All right, you may come." So they went to some house to plunder. All the assistants were plundering here and there, and he was also doing also. So as soon as he touches something, he remembered, "If I steal this gold, then such-and-such punishment will be assessed." He is a brāhmaṇa-pandit , he knows. "How can I steal?" He left over that. Then he touches something else, . . . (indistinct) . . . and he remembers . . . (laughs) Not a very good crook. So he saw that the householder, they chewed some pān , and after chewing he has thrown, so he took that. "I don't see . . . (indistinct) . . . let's go." (laughs) *So when they gathered together, the leader: "What you have stolen? What you have got?" Somebody said: "We have so much . . ." And when he was asked, he said: "I have got this." (devotees laugh) So he became very angry, "So how can you stay with us, you cannot be a thief?" "Where I was searching I got so many opportunities, but after searching, the śāstra says, "If you steal like that, you suffer like this. Kindly don"t do that.' Therefore I thought there is no any injunction for this." So (laughing) the leader could understand. Then out of sympathy he said: "All right, you are poor man. You came to us, you cannot steal, so whatever we have got today you can take it." Then he said: "How can I take it? It is stolen property." And he went away, again the same poverty*-stricken. He could not improve his position. *So this is the social condition. And if we teach them not to become drunkard, not to become women*-hunter, the modern society, they find that "Where is our business? Our business is to keep hotels, brothels and, what is called, topless, bottomless hotels, and drinking house and smoking cigarettes, and then so many . . . and where is our business? To teach the lowest to give up this . . . (indistinct) . . . where is our business? Then we have to close up." Wow. This is our position. Therefore it is said: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." That I was thinking in the beginning, that "I have come here as wise man . . . (indistinct) . . . how these rascals will accept? They are so much addicted to all these things." I never expected that anyone will accept it. It is simply Kṛṣṇa's grace that some of you have accepted it; otherwise I was hopeless. Bon Mahārāja was hopeless. He left, and so many big, big horses came, and I was a little horse . . . Boro boro ghoda gelo rasatal, beto ghoda bole koto jol. (Big big horses got swept away but the pony wants to know how much water is there.) Horse, they’re swimmer. But the stream was so strong, big, big horses were carried away. And one pony, he came, "Can you tell me how much water is there?" That means he wants to cross over. He was informed that many, many big horses, they jumped over and were carried away, but still he stayed. So my position was like that. Big, big Vivekananda and so on and so on, so many came, and they became victimized themselves. Instead of stopping illicit sex he became subject to illicit sex, and when he returned India he brought with him two women secretaries and intimate companions. That was Vivekananda. One was Sister Nivedita, and another was some other obscure, some. He could not find any male disciples. He took to cheat women. This is Vivekananda's achievement . . . (indistinct) . . . when he retired, two women, and one of them was very intimately connected. This is . . . The more that people accept and understand what you are teaching, the more dangerous you will be seen. Hmm? The more dangerous you will be seen. You will be seen as a threat to the way of life, so there will be so many powers that want to stop. And universities are connected with the government. Universities are part of the . . . actually government sponsored. The government is full of the biggest rogues, so, er . . . but on the university campuses there are some good people. In other words, there are some intelligent people in the universities who will be able to appreciate. So why they keep the subject matter in philosophy? They . . . the subject matter is spent—atheist. We study, people who are atheists, moralists. (showing something) Is that all right? Aiye . Yesterday you were talking about the philosophy of not the person but the soul who is in the person, like that. What did you say, Gaurasundara told you? That the principle . . . it's the principle of guru , not the person. In other words, not . . . you're saying that to worship and serve you directly as Śrīla Prabhupāda as the personality that we know and love is . . . So he is following the principles of guru's instruction? Well, he doesn't . . . he's changing all the time. (laughing) Then what is the use? So it's not . . . I expect him to continue to change. But this is just what he is most . . . Change means he has no knowledge. He has not taken any knowledge. Change means that. In other words, he is saying that the . . . But what is the use of his saying, if he is saying today something, tomorrow he will say something else? What is the use of his saying? Well, there are a number of people who also accept what he is saying. That's all right. One fool is followed by another. That is another thing. But with this changing, then what is the value of his saying? And apart from that, there is Radhakrishnan's statement that Lord Kṛṣṇa, the person, er, the spirit within. That is Radhakrishnan's philosophy. This is not applicable to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa . . . we have got inside soul; *outside, this material body. Kṛṣṇa is all*-spiritual, therefore He has no such distinction, "inside" or "outside." We conditioned souls, we are inside, the soul; outside, this material body. And it is changing. Today I have got this body, next another body, next another body. Therefore I as spirit soul, Brahman, I am different from my body. Kṛṣṇa is not like that. Kṛṣṇa has no changing. He is Supreme Brahman. He hasn't got to change. Without changing He can be present anywhere and everywhere. That is His . . . *So Dr. Radhakrishnan's statement, it is wrong, and we protest that he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. And therefore we condemn him, that he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and still he is writing commentary on Bhagavad*-gītā . Just like Gandhi, he also, they . . . to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy job. Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye ( BG 7.3): out of millions and millions people, somebody has tried to become perfect. That's a fact. Who is eager to become perfect, so many? Nobody cares for it. "Hah! Let me enjoy life." Kṛṣṇa also says the same thing: manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye , "Somebody tries to become perfect," and yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ , "and those who have become perfect, out of many of them, one may know Me." *So to understand Kṛṣṇa is not easy. Even those who have become perfect, they cannot understand. So the Radhakrishnan, how he can understand? He is not perfect even. Amongst the perfect also it is very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa. So we see that. Gandhi says that, "I don't believe that there was any person ever living as Kṛṣṇa." Just see. This is the position of big, big, so*-called big men. They do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa. And still they have the audacity to write comments on Gītā . So what will Gaurasundara will understand? Therefore why has he changed? Gaurasundara is using . . . Kṛṣṇa as separate from His body? No, the spiritual master is not, I don't think . . . the spiritual master should not be served on the material platform but like we are serving. He considers all this on the material platform, our service to you directly, our service to Your Divine Grace. Then he does not know . . . *That's a low*-level sentiment. Spiritual activities are not on the material platform. The spiritual master is not to be considered . . . (sounds in background) (aside) Why don't you take one almirah ? This big almirah ? All right. So that "inside," "outside" is not for Kṛṣṇa. It's not for the spiritual master either. Yes, not for the spiritual master. It's not to be applied to the spiritual master. Hmm? It's not to be applied to the spiritual master, either, just like . . . (indistinct) Yes. The spiritual master is not to be considered . . . I mean, I consider you to be completely on the spiritual platform . . . *Yes. That I have already explained: sākṣād*-dharitvena . He is directly like. That is to be understood. That's a fact. If somebody thinks that he has got a material body, even if one thinks that is material body, that body is not acting materially. The body is acting as spiritual. So even you say that he has got a material body, the body is no more acting materially—therefore it is spiritual. Yes . . . (indistinct) And he also, this attitude . . . and this has been ever since he first left, since the first time, when he first left, and has continued as his attitude. Since the first time actually he took . . . (indistinct) Even Vaiṣṇava . . . . . . that all spiritual masters are the same. *Vaiṣṇava . . . vaiṣṇave jāti*-buddhi : anything that is spiritually engaged, that is spiritual. Why the spiritual master? Anything. Now this table (knocks on table), it is used for spiritual purpose—therefore it is spiritual. The temple . . . why the temple was? Because temple is not an ordinary thing. It is used for spiritual purpose. Everything is used. The example of Lord Caitanya carrying Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Er, excuse me. There is that one Indian doctor, the lady doctor who came to see you last time, she came, and she want to know if she can see you now or sometime . . . *No, she can come. So anything engaged in spiritual service . . . the example is the iron rod put into the fire. Everyone knows it is iron rod, but it acts as fire. (break) So why not anything which is always engaged in spiritual service is not spiritual? Where is the difficulty to understand? Anyone who has no other business than spiritual, then he is spiritual. The same example: when the rod is not acting as iron rod but acting as fire, so what is the objection to call it fire? Actually it is burning. Why it should be iron? Eh? Where is the argument? So anyone—spiritual master or anyone—who is twenty*-four-hours engaged in spiritual service, he is spiritual. Even though he has got this material body, he is spiritual . . . aiye! Namaskāra. Namaskāra. . . . (indistinct) Accha. Besh . . . (Okay. Fine . . .) Bālajī? Ah, Bālajī. The example of Lord Caitanya carrying the body of Haridāsa Ṭhākura is evidence that the body is perfectly spiritual. *Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . if you want to argue, this is the argument, logic. So how you can refute it? An iron rod, you put into the fire. Everyone knows that it is iron rod. And when it is red hot, then even though you know it is iron rod, but it is fire. Similarly, material body, when it is saturated with spiritual activities, it is no more material. What is material and spiritual, what is the distinction? The distinction is that when we forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Now we say it is day because there is light, and when there is no light it is night. But where is the situation changed? The situation is the same: the same planet, the same tree, the same house. Now we say it is day, and at night the same house, the same land, the same tree, it will be night. So what is the difference? The difference is presence and absence of the sun. So on account of presence and absence of Kṛṣṇa things become material and spiritual. If you keep yourself always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness then you are spiritual, and if you forget Kṛṣṇa, material. Just like the sky. The sky is always clear, but when there is occasional appearance of the cloud then you say the sky is not clear. Sky is always clear. When it is covered by the cloud it is called not clear. Clearness means surpassing the condition of not*-clearness. Surpassing the condition of what? (to guest) You can come here. So if you keep always in clear condition, then it is all right. That is Brahman. And if you bring cloud, then it is material, polluted. So the cloud is not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Consciousness is there. If you keep it always Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is spiritual, and if you bring some other consciousness—material things—then it is material consciousness. Consciousness is already there. That the sky is already there, you bring in clouds, then it is not clear . . . the whole night cloudy sky, and then as soon as the cloud is cleared, the sky is very nice. Similarly, we are trying to bring Kṛṣṇa, or clear sky. That is our program. Actually that is the condition of sky. Sky is always clear. Some portion, it becomes dark on account of; *tiny portion. When this Hawaii, it is cloudy, it does not mean the whole sky is cloudy. Millions and millions of miles you go out of the cloud you will see everything clear. By aeroplane you have got experience. Downward the plane you will find some clouds, say few thousand miles, but what is few thousand miles in the sky? Few million miles also is nothing. Therefore the spiritual world is unlimited. It is only, only portion—this material world—little portion. Ekāṁśena sthito jagat , that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā (BG 10.42). Only a little portion, this material world. Not that this material world is a, I mean . . . no. The sky is expanding four billion miles up and down, this diameter. Even a few million miles covered by cloud, what is that? How many millions make a billion? (pause) Hundred million? Yes, I think so. Or thousand million? There is . . . so this question of billions of miles, so say even one million of miles becomes cloudy. That is not joke, one million miles; *you cannot imagine. Twenty*-five thousand miles, finish our world. What is the question of million? If you go twenty-five thousand miles, then the world area is finished. So this question of millions . . . millions, many millions, billion and such four billion. That is the space. So even hundred miles, two hundred miles, that is cloudy, it doesn't affect the sky, neither the sun. We are affected. Our eyes are covered. We say: "There is no sun." We are affected; *not that there is no God, there is no sun. We are poor fellow. Our teeny knowledge is affected, and we say there is no sun. Just like same, rabbit philosophy: close the eyes—there is no enemy . . . the enemy is in front, to kill him. He, out of fear, closes the eyes, and he thinks there is no enemy. And the maṇḍūka, kūpa*-maṇḍūka , three-feet water, he thinks that this is the area of water. And if he is informed about the Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, what he will understand? And every one of these rascals, they are trying to understand God from his standard of understanding. Kūpa-maṇḍūka . Just like the frog is trying to understand Atlantic Ocean by measuring the well, that's all. This is position. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). He does not know what is the real position. Paraṁ bhāvam. Paraṁ bhāvam, ajānanto —without any knowledge. So we have to take knowledge of God from God. That we have got. Don't manufacture your God. Rascal, that will never be successful. All the rascals, they are manufacturing their own God, and this is being supported: yato mata tato patha . (addressing Indian lady) Apni jana ? Yato mata tato patha. Ki ? Yato mata tato patha. Ah . . . (indistinct) . . . roads. Ah. Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says mām ekaṁ , but these rascals say: "No, no, you can manufacture anything, and you can go." Is that what Siddha says? Siddha? More or less. But that is the way, that . . . That all the ways are the same. That . . . "You are perfect, I am perfect." If I say you are imperfect, then I become. They are using that in psychology now, "I'm okay, you're are okay." And then next they say the same connection, you know. "I'm okay, you are okay." It's a philosophy, so everything's all right. (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says: "I am okay. You are not okay. You surrender." That is it. The psychologists now, they . . . They are using the same philosophy. They have no other way, because they are imperfect. So if I say: "You are imperfect," then I remain imperfect. No, but they are saying that, "You are all right and I am all right." Therefore I say, unless I say you are all right, how I can become all right? This is why they are using this. This is the reason. This is the reason. If I say: "You are not all right," then you will say: "You are also not perfect." (laughter) And I want you . . . Just to make a compromise. Yes. So I am right, you are right. Because you don't want anyone to say that . . . He's wrong! (laughter) The thing is accepted . . . Yes. They don't dig up your past, and they don't have to know anything about, so you become more equal with them, and then they accept you as you are. It is working better with the . . . What is working? This concept. "That is working" means you do not die? No, but . . . you're going to die. Then why . . . how it is working? More or less there are so many . . . What do you mean by working? It means that this problem they are raising . . . What is the problem? You are . . . Your problem is that you do not wish to die, but you will die. That is the real problem. I think we want to die, that we can't avoid it. Then where is your problem solved? That is I . . . You make a compromise. The problem is not solved. Your problem is, "I do not want to die." You are sitting, now there is something, danger, signal, immediately you will be afraid, "What shall I do?" That means you do not want to die. This is your problem. As long as we have fear of death, we are not free. There must be death, and there must be fear. Then where is your problem solved? That is foolishness, "Now okay, everything is okay." What is okay? Nothing is okay. They are foolishness. Where you are okay? (laughter) And when you say like that, they say: "You are a pessimist." Whatever it may be. But you cannot say okay. (laughter) You are a realist. These are rascals, simply rascals. It's like the rabbits. You say? If they can . . . They say okay. Close the eyes and "Okay." Everything is okay. And they look at each other and say: "It's okay, it's okay, it's okay . . ." but all around them is death, but they are helping keeping themself in illusion, helping keep each other in illusion. But let me explain to you that they know also that they are okay. But they are not. That's illusion, though. But they are not okay, but still it makes them feel okay that, "If he is all right, I am also all right." So . . . That is called frog philosophy. What is? Frog philosophy. (laughter) Frog philosophy. *The frog within the well, three*-feet water. Yes. He thinks, "My knowledge of water is complete." But when his friend says: "Oh, there is vast water," "What is that, four feet? All right, five feet?" He will calculate, "Three feet? All right, little more? Four feet? Come on. Six feet? Ten feet?" He cannot think of actually what is Pacific Ocean. He is making "okay," like that. Yes. Three to four, four to five, five to six. It seems like . . . He does not know any number of feet he will increase, it is not okay. Yes. He does not know. People want to be in illusion that it's okay so that they can enjoy more nicely, because if they are not feeling that it's okay, that there is some danger, then they can't be in the enjoying spirit as much. They can't have the spirit of enjoyment. So to be able to enjoy the world better, they like to have a mind which is . . . Crippled. (laughter) Crippled. (laughs) They would say relaxed. Illusioned. They don't want to be in anxiety. That is their opinion. They don't want to know the truth, because that would . . . *That is called kūpa*-maṇḍūka-nyāya, a crippled mind. A frog in the well. The same philosophy. They don't want to know. Yeah, they don't want to know the truth. It hurts. Because then it would make it so they would not enjoy it so nicely. Yes. They would also have to change. . . . (indistinct) They are . . . everybody is always continually trying to forget death. They have so many ways to try to forget. Hmm. That is advised by . . . I think Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, that the karmīs should think always that he will never die; otherwise he cannot work. He can't enjoy. He can't do anything. And those who are jñānīs , they should think always, "I may die immediately." That is the difference between karmī and jñānī . "I may die immediately"? Yes. That's a fact. Is there any guarantee that you will not die immediately? When we think that, then we are . . . You think—it is a fact. You think or not think. Yes. Is a fact. Therefore I was saying the other day that to die, there is no wonder, but to live, that is wonder. Because you can die at any moment. So you are still living, that is wonder. Yes. And death, everyone knows, "I will die." So where is wonder? Nobody won't die. So death is not wonder. To live is wonder. Therefore we should utilize the lifetime properly, not a single moment lost. Then it will . . . living is wonder. Death is not wonder. Any moment you can die. And they are happily running this car—at any moment he can die. Is there any insurance that they will not die? There is insurance of car accident, but there is no insurance that he will not die. Just go to one insurance company that you will not die. Then you will be prosecuted. So this is a fact. Death is not wonder; to live is wonder. *That Khaṭvāṅga*-rāja, he joined with the demigods to fight with the demons. So the demigods were very much pleased. They wanted to give some benediction, "You have done so much for us. You take some benediction." He first of all questioned, "Now what is the duration of my life, left, balance?" Then they said: "Your duration of life is one moment," according to their calculations. So he immediately thought it wise, "Then what is the use of your benediction? Let me take sannyāsa ." This is intelligence, that "I am living; *this is wonder. I can die at any moment. So I have to finish my Kṛṣṇa conscious business." So not a single moment should be wasted. This is . . . that I can die at any moment, and if you do not finish my Kṛṣṇa consciousness business before death, then I do not know how I am going to change my body. If I finish my Kṛṣṇa conscious business, then, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), then I can go back to home, back to Godhead. If I do not finish, then I will have to change this body. Yes. That is seriousness of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Labdhvā sudurlabham idaṁ bahu*-sambhavānte mānuṣyam arthadam (SB 11.9.29). I have got this body, human form of body, after evolution of so many species and forms of life. They do not know. They are doomed to . . . (indistinct) So one who will mislead him, he is his friend, and one who will speak the real truth . . . They don't want to hear you. "Swami is very conservative," they say. "Bhaktivedanta Swami is very conservative." Can I change my . . . (indistinct)? "Swamiji, you are very conservative." Because I do not say: "Whatever you like, you do; whatever you like, you drink; whatever you like . . ." There is no . . . "You're okay, I'm okay." "Everything okay." That I do not. Therefore I am not popular. They do not want to hear of their actual position. That is ignorance. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Just now you were saying people do not like it. Yes. No, I am saying, that . . . yes. (laughs) . . . (indistinct) They don't want to hear . . . if you say: "You are going to die," they immediately get mad at you, "Don't tell me about that. I don't want to know about that." (laughter) "I almost forgot. I was just forgetting that." (laughs) People are amazed that we are always talking about death. They don't want to talk about death. They don't want to hear about death. They hide death; they don't want to think of it in any way. But it seems that . . . Yes. I have heard many big men that say, "Why you bother about death?" You are dying at every moment, before the actual death. They say. Because you are bothering about death, that means before actual death you are dying every moment. Death, "Why you care for death? Let it come when it will come." That is their philosophy. It means they are afraid of . . . You are afraid of death, that means before actual death you are simply dying. You have no enjoyment of life. This is their argument. Sometimes their philosophy is, "Death is just one moment and life is many, many moments. So why not think about life?" Yes. But that means that they are afraid of death. Whatever it may be, I know their argument. No, but the ones who know that they are going to die, if they have . . . (indistinct) . . . blinking eyes. The devotee is . . . Therefore I have said the karmīs shall forget about death, then they will be able to work. Yes. Hard, like ass. The ass does not know, like that. He loads the body, tons of clothes, washerman. So remain ass. Karmī means ass. The karmi , they are compared with ass. There is that story . . . Just like this tomato, so many tomatoes. I'll eat . . . I may eat one or two. But why they are collecting so much? So these rascal karmī , they are collecting money, collecting money, eat. So there will be used only a few dollars. Therefore they are ass. You don't require so much money, and he will pick all the girlfriends to go there and talk . . . (indistinct) They will find some ridiculous use for it, if they have it. That is difficult. They have a hard time finding money. Ass means he does not know his actual interest. He'll eat some grass, and the grass is available everywhere, but he is thinking that "If I do not carry the load of the washerman I'll not get." This is ass. Grass . . . (indistinct Hindi) Hah? (indistinct Hindi) . . . you call it grass. Something . . . No, the ass eats grass. Oh, the ass eats grass. Oh. So grass is available everywhere, but he has become the servant of the washerman because the washerman gives some grass. After taking his service, carrying tons of cloth, he cannot move. He is doing that. He is thinking, "I must have to do this because otherwise this washerman will not give me grass." He does not need anything more than the grass, a few morsels. As soon as the ass comes to the destination, then the load is taken away and he is given some grass, and he stands there whole day. Again he will load. So why he is standing, thinking himself as dependent on the washerman? Because he is thinking, "The washerman is giving me grass." He does not think that, "I can get grass anywhere sufficiently. Why shall I remain a servant of the washerman?" That is ass quality, mūḍhā . They can get very easily their food, huh, by plowing some land with some bull. But they are starting big, big industry. Big, big. Why? And the land is neglected. They are not growing food grains, they are growing sugarcane, the others, pineapple. Who will eat so much sugar, pine? No. They will do business. This is capitalism. Therefore the Communists, they are revolting, "Why shall I serve him?" (end) Conversation -- May 13, 1976, Honolulu . . . cannot say sometimes it is dark. (coughs) Is that truth, that sun is sometimes dark, sometimes light? This is their intelligence. But we have to be guided by these rascals. That is the dangerous position in the modern world. All the leaders are rascals: religious, political, social. Any field of activities, just try to advise us. Now this Indira Gandhi is convicted: "You must leave your post. It is taken." Just see, (s)he is the guidance of the whole nation, and (s)he is a culprit. Where is that, the secure? The mother is killing child, you see. And the prime minister is a thief; the president is a rogue. This is the . . . in your country, big country, and a big rogue. And India, it is big country also, culture, there is a thief. The mother is the best shelter for child. She is mother, then where is protection? (child crying in background) This is going on. The mother is no more shelter; *the king is no more protector. Then? Where is shelter? This is the . . . and long, long ago, at least three thousand years ago, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita warned, viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja*-kuleṣu ca : "Government men and women should not be trusted." This is the . . . and this, they elected the woman politician. Why she does become victim? (devotee laughs) *I think yesterday I was talking that this Indira Gandhi was going to the hospital for abortion, twice times in a year. That is discussed . . . (indistinct) . . . there are many, Indira Gandhi—we don't wish to discuss—but she is, that is . . . she has no culture, no character, she's not very much educated. But anyway, so*-called education, what is the value? And she is leader. Whatever she says, that is final. I think somebody told me that Nixon, "Resign on condition from . . . (indistinct)" *Yeah. It is secret, but it is well*-accepted fact. So Ford pardoned him. So that means he is dishonest. Yes. For his post as president he played this dishonesty. Yes. He made a deal. Yes. It is the king's duty to see that there must be judgment for culprit and innocent. But from the very beginning, start, the judgment is in favor of the rogue. Then how we can expect justice? Beginning is dishonesty. Anyway, this should be reduced. They do not want character. No religion, no character. That's a different . . . That is why they will consider us . . . consider this philosophy—the people in power—they will consider this philosophy very dangerous to them, because it would make it so that they could not plunder so easily. Hmm? It would make it so they can't plunder as easily. The people have some knowledge, then it won't be as easy for the leaders to plunder, to exploit. So they don't want the people to have this knowledge. *Then our preaching is finished. There is a story of this "have knowledge." One brahmin , he was very much poverty*-stricken, so he could not find any things, valuable. Very poverty-stricken. So he knew one gang of thieves, so he went there. He met that chief, gang, "Sir, I know you. I have no . . . (indistinct) . . . so I have come to you. You can also take me as one of you . . . (indistinct) . . . I can steal." So "All right, you may come." So they went to some house to plunder. All the assistants were plundering here and there, and he was also doing also. So as soon as he touches something, he remembered, "If I steal this gold, then such-and-such punishment will be assessed." He is a brāhmaṇa-pandit , he knows. "How can I steal?" He left over that. Then he touches something else, . . . (indistinct) . . . and he remembers . . . (laughs) Not a very good crook. So he saw that the householder, they chewed some pān , and after chewing he has thrown, so he took that. "I don't see . . . (indistinct) . . . let's go." (laughs) *So when they gathered together, the leader: "What you have stolen? What you have got?" Somebody said: "We have so much . . ." And when he was asked, he said: "I have got this." (devotees laugh) So he became very angry, "So how can you stay with us, you cannot be a thief?" "Where I was searching I got so many opportunities, but after searching, the śāstra says, "If you steal like that, you suffer like this. Kindly don"t do that.' Therefore I thought there is no any injunction for this." So (laughing) the leader could understand. Then out of sympathy he said: "All right, you are poor man. You came to us, you cannot steal, so whatever we have got today you can take it." Then he said: "How can I take it? It is stolen property." And he went away, again the same poverty*-stricken. He could not improve his position. *So this is the social condition. And if we teach them not to become drunkard, not to become women*-hunter, the modern society, they find that "Where is our business? Our business is to keep hotels, brothels and, what is called, topless, bottomless hotels, and drinking house and smoking cigarettes, and then so many . . . and where is our business? To teach the lowest to give up this . . . (indistinct) . . . where is our business? Then we have to close up." Wow. This is our position. Therefore it is said: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." That I was thinking in the beginning, that "I have come here as wise man . . . (indistinct) . . . how these rascals will accept? They are so much addicted to all these things." I never expected that anyone will accept it. It is simply Kṛṣṇa's grace that some of you have accepted it; otherwise I was hopeless. Bon Mahārāja was hopeless. He left, and so many big, big horses came, and I was a little horse . . . Boro boro ghoda gelo rasatal, beto ghoda bole koto jol. (Big big horses got swept away but the pony wants to know how much water is there.) Horse, they’re swimmer. But the stream was so strong, big, big horses were carried away. And one pony, he came, "Can you tell me how much water is there?" That means he wants to cross over. He was informed that many, many big horses, they jumped over and were carried away, but still he stayed. So my position was like that. Big, big Vivekananda and so on and so on, so many came, and they became victimized themselves. Instead of stopping illicit sex he became subject to illicit sex, and when he returned India he brought with him two women secretaries and intimate companions. That was Vivekananda. One was Sister Nivedita, and another was some other obscure, some. He could not find any male disciples. He took to cheat women. This is Vivekananda's achievement . . . (indistinct) . . . when he retired, two women, and one of them was very intimately connected. This is . . . The more that people accept and understand what you are teaching, the more dangerous you will be seen. Hmm? The more dangerous you will be seen. You will be seen as a threat to the way of life, so there will be so many powers that want to stop. And universities are connected with the government. Universities are part of the . . . actually government sponsored. The government is full of the biggest rogues, so, er . . . but on the university campuses there are some good people. In other words, there are some intelligent people in the universities who will be able to appreciate. So why they keep the subject matter in philosophy? They . . . the subject matter is spent—atheist. We study, people who are atheists, moralists. (showing something) Is that all right? Aiye . Yesterday you were talking about the philosophy of not the person but the soul who is in the person, like that. What did you say, Gaurasundara told you? That the principle . . . it's the principle of guru , not the person. In other words, not . . . you're saying that to worship and serve you directly as Śrīla Prabhupāda as the personality that we know and love is . . . So he is following the principles of guru's instruction? Well, he doesn't . . . he's changing all the time. (laughing) Then what is the use? So it's not . . . I expect him to continue to change. But this is just what he is most . . . Change means he has no knowledge. He has not taken any knowledge. Change means that. In other words, he is saying that the . . . But what is the use of his saying, if he is saying today something, tomorrow he will say something else? What is the use of his saying? Well, there are a number of people who also accept what he is saying. That's all right. One fool is followed by another. That is another thing. But with this changing, then what is the value of his saying? And apart from that, there is Radhakrishnan's statement that Lord Kṛṣṇa, the person, er, the spirit within. That is Radhakrishnan's philosophy. This is not applicable to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa . . . we have got inside soul; *outside, this material body. Kṛṣṇa is all*-spiritual, therefore He has no such distinction, "inside" or "outside." We conditioned souls, we are inside, the soul; outside, this material body. And it is changing. Today I have got this body, next another body, next another body. Therefore I as spirit soul, Brahman, I am different from my body. Kṛṣṇa is not like that. Kṛṣṇa has no changing. He is Supreme Brahman. He hasn't got to change. Without changing He can be present anywhere and everywhere. That is His . . . *So Dr. Radhakrishnan's statement, it is wrong, and we protest that he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. And therefore we condemn him, that he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and still he is writing commentary on Bhagavad*-gītā . Just like Gandhi, he also, they . . . to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy job. Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye ( BG 7.3): out of millions and millions people, somebody has tried to become perfect. That's a fact. Who is eager to become perfect, so many? Nobody cares for it. "Hah! Let me enjoy life." Kṛṣṇa also says the same thing: manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye , "Somebody tries to become perfect," and yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ , "and those who have become perfect, out of many of them, one may know Me." *So to understand Kṛṣṇa is not easy. Even those who have become perfect, they cannot understand. So the Radhakrishnan, how he can understand? He is not perfect even. Amongst the perfect also it is very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa. So we see that. Gandhi says that, "I don't believe that there was any person ever living as Kṛṣṇa." Just see. This is the position of big, big, so*-called big men. They do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa. And still they have the audacity to write comments on Gītā . So what will Gaurasundara will understand? Therefore why has he changed? Gaurasundara is using . . . Kṛṣṇa as separate from His body? No, the spiritual master is not, I don't think . . . the spiritual master should not be served on the material platform but like we are serving. He considers all this on the material platform, our service to you directly, our service to Your Divine Grace. Then he does not know . . . *That's a low*-level sentiment. Spiritual activities are not on the material platform. The spiritual master is not to be considered . . . (sounds in background) (aside) Why don't you take one almirah ? This big almirah ? All right. So that "inside," "outside" is not for Kṛṣṇa. It's not for the spiritual master either. Yes, not for the spiritual master. It's not to be applied to the spiritual master. Hmm? It's not to be applied to the spiritual master, either, just like . . . (indistinct) Yes. The spiritual master is not to be considered . . . I mean, I consider you to be completely on the spiritual platform . . . *Yes. That I have already explained: sākṣād*-dharitvena . He is directly like. That is to be understood. That's a fact. If somebody thinks that he has got a material body, even if one thinks that is material body, that body is not acting materially. The body is acting as spiritual. So even you say that he has got a material body, the body is no more acting materially—therefore it is spiritual. Yes . . . (indistinct) And he also, this attitude . . . and this has been ever since he first left, since the first time, when he first left, and has continued as his attitude. Since the first time actually he took . . . (indistinct) Even Vaiṣṇava . . . . . . that all spiritual masters are the same. *Vaiṣṇava . . . vaiṣṇave jāti*-buddhi : anything that is spiritually engaged, that is spiritual. Why the spiritual master? Anything. Now this table (knocks on table), it is used for spiritual purpose—therefore it is spiritual. The temple . . . why the temple was? Because temple is not an ordinary thing. It is used for spiritual purpose. Everything is used. The example of Lord Caitanya carrying Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Er, excuse me. There is that one Indian doctor, the lady doctor who came to see you last time, she came, and she want to know if she can see you now or sometime . . . *No, she can come. So anything engaged in spiritual service . . . the example is the iron rod put into the fire. Everyone knows it is iron rod, but it acts as fire. (break) So why not anything which is always engaged in spiritual service is not spiritual? Where is the difficulty to understand? Anyone who has no other business than spiritual, then he is spiritual. The same example: when the rod is not acting as iron rod but acting as fire, so what is the objection to call it fire? Actually it is burning. Why it should be iron? Eh? Where is the argument? So anyone—spiritual master or anyone—who is twenty*-four-hours engaged in spiritual service, he is spiritual. Even though he has got this material body, he is spiritual . . . aiye! Namaskāra. Namaskāra. . . . (indistinct) Accha. Besh . . . (Okay. Fine . . .) Bālajī? Ah, Bālajī. The example of Lord Caitanya carrying the body of Haridāsa Ṭhākura is evidence that the body is perfectly spiritual. *Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . if you want to argue, this is the argument, logic. So how you can refute it? An iron rod, you put into the fire. Everyone knows that it is iron rod. And when it is red hot, then even though you know it is iron rod, but it is fire. Similarly, material body, when it is saturated with spiritual activities, it is no more material. What is material and spiritual, what is the distinction? The distinction is that when we forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Now we say it is day because there is light, and when there is no light it is night. But where is the situation changed? The situation is the same: the same planet, the same tree, the same house. Now we say it is day, and at night the same house, the same land, the same tree, it will be night. So what is the difference? The difference is presence and absence of the sun. So on account of presence and absence of Kṛṣṇa things become material and spiritual. If you keep yourself always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness then you are spiritual, and if you forget Kṛṣṇa, material. Just like the sky. The sky is always clear, but when there is occasional appearance of the cloud then you say the sky is not clear. Sky is always clear. When it is covered by the cloud it is called not clear. Clearness means surpassing the condition of not*-clearness. Surpassing the condition of what? (to guest) You can come here. So if you keep always in clear condition, then it is all right. That is Brahman. And if you bring cloud, then it is material, polluted. So the cloud is not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Consciousness is there. If you keep it always Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is spiritual, and if you bring some other consciousness—material things—then it is material consciousness. Consciousness is already there. That the sky is already there, you bring in clouds, then it is not clear . . . the whole night cloudy sky, and then as soon as the cloud is cleared, the sky is very nice. Similarly, we are trying to bring Kṛṣṇa, or clear sky. That is our program. Actually that is the condition of sky. Sky is always clear. Some portion, it becomes dark on account of; *tiny portion. When this Hawaii, it is cloudy, it does not mean the whole sky is cloudy. Millions and millions of miles you go out of the cloud you will see everything clear. By aeroplane you have got experience. Downward the plane you will find some clouds, say few thousand miles, but what is few thousand miles in the sky? Few million miles also is nothing. Therefore the spiritual world is unlimited. It is only, only portion—this material world—little portion. Ekāṁśena sthito jagat , that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā (BG 10.42). Only a little portion, this material world. Not that this material world is a, I mean . . . no. The sky is expanding four billion miles up and down, this diameter. Even a few million miles covered by cloud, what is that? How many millions make a billion? (pause) Hundred million? Yes, I think so. Or thousand million? There is . . . so this question of billions of miles, so say even one million of miles becomes cloudy. That is not joke, one million miles; *you cannot imagine. Twenty*-five thousand miles, finish our world. What is the question of million? If you go twenty-five thousand miles, then the world area is finished. So this question of millions . . . millions, many millions, billion and such four billion. That is the space. So even hundred miles, two hundred miles, that is cloudy, it doesn't affect the sky, neither the sun. We are affected. Our eyes are covered. We say: "There is no sun." We are affected; *not that there is no God, there is no sun. We are poor fellow. Our teeny knowledge is affected, and we say there is no sun. Just like same, rabbit philosophy: close the eyes—there is no enemy . . . the enemy is in front, to kill him. He, out of fear, closes the eyes, and he thinks there is no enemy. And the maṇḍūka, kūpa*-maṇḍūka , three-feet water, he thinks that this is the area of water. And if he is informed about the Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, what he will understand? And every one of these rascals, they are trying to understand God from his standard of understanding. Kūpa-maṇḍūka . Just like the frog is trying to understand Atlantic Ocean by measuring the well, that's all. This is position. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). He does not know what is the real position. Paraṁ bhāvam. Paraṁ bhāvam, ajānanto —without any knowledge. So we have to take knowledge of God from God. That we have got. Don't manufacture your God. Rascal, that will never be successful. All the rascals, they are manufacturing their own God, and this is being supported: yato mata tato patha . (addressing Indian lady) Apni jana ? Yato mata tato patha. Ki ? Yato mata tato patha. Ah . . . (indistinct) . . . roads. Ah. Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says mām ekaṁ , but these rascals say: "No, no, you can manufacture anything, and you can go." Is that what Siddha says? Siddha? More or less. But that is the way, that . . . That all the ways are the same. That . . . "You are perfect, I am perfect." If I say you are imperfect, then I become. They are using that in psychology now, "I'm okay, you're are okay." And then next they say the same connection, you know. "I'm okay, you are okay." It's a philosophy, so everything's all right. (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says: "I am okay. You are not okay. You surrender." That is it. The psychologists now, they . . . They are using the same philosophy. They have no other way, because they are imperfect. So if I say: "You are imperfect," then I remain imperfect. No, but they are saying that, "You are all right and I am all right." Therefore I say, unless I say you are all right, how I can become all right? This is why they are using this. This is the reason. This is the reason. If I say: "You are not all right," then you will say: "You are also not perfect." (laughter) And I want you . . . Just to make a compromise. Yes. So I am right, you are right. Because you don't want anyone to say that . . . He's wrong! (laughter) The thing is accepted . . . Yes. They don't dig up your past, and they don't have to know anything about, so you become more equal with them, and then they accept you as you are. It is working better with the . . . What is working? This concept. "That is working" means you do not die? No, but . . . you're going to die. Then why . . . how it is working? More or less there are so many . . . What do you mean by working? It means that this problem they are raising . . . What is the problem? You are . . . Your problem is that you do not wish to die, but you will die. That is the real problem. I think we want to die, that we can't avoid it. Then where is your problem solved? That is I . . . You make a compromise. The problem is not solved. Your problem is, "I do not want to die." You are sitting, now there is something, danger, signal, immediately you will be afraid, "What shall I do?" That means you do not want to die. This is your problem. As long as we have fear of death, we are not free. There must be death, and there must be fear. Then where is your problem solved? That is foolishness, "Now okay, everything is okay." What is okay? Nothing is okay. They are foolishness. Where you are okay? (laughter) And when you say like that, they say: "You are a pessimist." Whatever it may be. But you cannot say okay. (laughter) You are a realist. These are rascals, simply rascals. It's like the rabbits. You say? If they can . . . They say okay. Close the eyes and "Okay." Everything is okay. And they look at each other and say: "It's okay, it's okay, it's okay . . ." but all around them is death, but they are helping keeping themself in illusion, helping keep each other in illusion. But let me explain to you that they know also that they are okay. But they are not. That's illusion, though. But they are not okay, but still it makes them feel okay that, "If he is all right, I am also all right." So . . . That is called frog philosophy. What is? Frog philosophy. (laughter) Frog philosophy. *The frog within the well, three*-feet water. Yes. He thinks, "My knowledge of water is complete." But when his friend says: "Oh, there is vast water," "What is that, four feet? All right, five feet?" He will calculate, "Three feet? All right, little more? Four feet? Come on. Six feet? Ten feet?" He cannot think of actually what is Pacific Ocean. He is making "okay," like that. Yes. Three to four, four to five, five to six. It seems like . . . He does not know any number of feet he will increase, it is not okay. Yes. He does not know. People want to be in illusion that it's okay so that they can enjoy more nicely, because if they are not feeling that it's okay, that there is some danger, then they can't be in the enjoying spirit as much. They can't have the spirit of enjoyment. So to be able to enjoy the world better, they like to have a mind which is . . . Crippled. (laughter) Crippled. (laughs) They would say relaxed. Illusioned. They don't want to be in anxiety. That is their opinion. They don't want to know the truth, because that would . . . *That is called kūpa*-maṇḍūka-nyāya, a crippled mind. A frog in the well. The same philosophy. They don't want to know. Yeah, they don't want to know the truth. It hurts. Because then it would make it so they would not enjoy it so nicely. Yes. They would also have to change. . . . (indistinct) They are . . . everybody is always continually trying to forget death. They have so many ways to try to forget. Hmm. That is advised by . . . I think Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, that the karmīs should think always that he will never die; otherwise he cannot work. He can't enjoy. He can't do anything. And those who are jñānīs , they should think always, "I may die immediately." That is the difference between karmī and jñānī . "I may die immediately"? Yes. That's a fact. Is there any guarantee that you will not die immediately? When we think that, then we are . . . You think—it is a fact. You think or not think. Yes. Is a fact. Therefore I was saying the other day that to die, there is no wonder, but to live, that is wonder. Because you can die at any moment. So you are still living, that is wonder. Yes. And death, everyone knows, "I will die." So where is wonder? Nobody won't die. So death is not wonder. To live is wonder. Therefore we should utilize the lifetime properly, not a single moment lost. Then it will . . . living is wonder. Death is not wonder. Any moment you can die. And they are happily running this car—at any moment he can die. Is there any insurance that they will not die? There is insurance of car accident, but there is no insurance that he will not die. Just go to one insurance company that you will not die. Then you will be prosecuted. So this is a fact. Death is not wonder; to live is wonder. *That Khaṭvāṅga*-rāja, he joined with the demigods to fight with the demons. So the demigods were very much pleased. They wanted to give some benediction, "You have done so much for us. You take some benediction." He first of all questioned, "Now what is the duration of my life, left, balance?" Then they said: "Your duration of life is one moment," according to their calculations. So he immediately thought it wise, "Then what is the use of your benediction? Let me take sannyāsa ." This is intelligence, that "I am living; *this is wonder. I can die at any moment. So I have to finish my Kṛṣṇa conscious business." So not a single moment should be wasted. This is . . . that I can die at any moment, and if you do not finish my Kṛṣṇa consciousness business before death, then I do not know how I am going to change my body. If I finish my Kṛṣṇa conscious business, then, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), then I can go back to home, back to Godhead. If I do not finish, then I will have to change this body. Yes. That is seriousness of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Labdhvā sudurlabham idaṁ bahu*-sambhavānte mānuṣyam arthadam (SB 11.9.29). I have got this body, human form of body, after evolution of so many species and forms of life. They do not know. They are doomed to . . . (indistinct) So one who will mislead him, he is his friend, and one who will speak the real truth . . . They don't want to hear you. "Swami is very conservative," they say. "Bhaktivedanta Swami is very conservative." Can I change my . . . (indistinct)? "Swamiji, you are very conservative." Because I do not say: "Whatever you like, you do; whatever you like, you drink; whatever you like . . ." There is no . . . "You're okay, I'm okay." "Everything okay." That I do not. Therefore I am not popular. They do not want to hear of their actual position. That is ignorance. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Just now you were saying people do not like it. Yes. No, I am saying, that . . . yes. (laughs) . . . (indistinct) They don't want to hear . . . if you say: "You are going to die," they immediately get mad at you, "Don't tell me about that. I don't want to know about that." (laughter) "I almost forgot. I was just forgetting that." (laughs) People are amazed that we are always talking about death. They don't want to talk about death. They don't want to hear about death. They hide death; they don't want to think of it in any way. But it seems that . . . Yes. I have heard many big men that say, "Why you bother about death?" You are dying at every moment, before the actual death. They say. Because you are bothering about death, that means before actual death you are dying every moment. Death, "Why you care for death? Let it come when it will come." That is their philosophy. It means they are afraid of . . . You are afraid of death, that means before actual death you are simply dying. You have no enjoyment of life. This is their argument. Sometimes their philosophy is, "Death is just one moment and life is many, many moments. So why not think about life?" Yes. But that means that they are afraid of death. Whatever it may be, I know their argument. No, but the ones who know that they are going to die, if they have . . . (indistinct) . . . blinking eyes. The devotee is . . . Therefore I have said the karmīs shall forget about death, then they will be able to work. Yes. Hard, like ass. The ass does not know, like that. He loads the body, tons of clothes, washerman. So remain ass. Karmī means ass. The karmi , they are compared with ass. There is that story . . . Just like this tomato, so many tomatoes. I'll eat . . . I may eat one or two. But why they are collecting so much? So these rascal karmī , they are collecting money, collecting money, eat. So there will be used only a few dollars. Therefore they are ass. You don't require so much money, and he will pick all the girlfriends to go there and talk . . . (indistinct) They will find some ridiculous use for it, if they have it. That is difficult. They have a hard time finding money. Ass means he does not know his actual interest. He'll eat some grass, and the grass is available everywhere, but he is thinking that "If I do not carry the load of the washerman I'll not get." This is ass. Grass . . . (indistinct Hindi) Hah? (indistinct Hindi) . . . you call it grass. Something . . . No, the ass eats grass. Oh, the ass eats grass. Oh. So grass is available everywhere, but he has become the servant of the washerman because the washerman gives some grass. After taking his service, carrying tons of cloth, he cannot move. He is doing that. He is thinking, "I must have to do this because otherwise this washerman will not give me grass." He does not need anything more than the grass, a few morsels. As soon as the ass comes to the destination, then the load is taken away and he is given some grass, and he stands there whole day. Again he will load. So why he is standing, thinking himself as dependent on the washerman? Because he is thinking, "The washerman is giving me grass." He does not think that, "I can get grass anywhere sufficiently. Why shall I remain a servant of the washerman?" That is ass quality, mūḍhā . They can get very easily their food, huh, by plowing some land with some bull. But they are starting big, big industry. Big, big. Why? And the land is neglected. They are not growing food grains, they are growing sugarcane, the others, pineapple. Who will eat so much sugar, pine? No. They will do business. This is capitalism. Therefore the Communists, they are revolting, "Why shall I serve him?" (end) Conversation -- May 15, 1976, Honolulu . . . she still upstairs? No, Prabhupāda. Pālikā is up there now learning how to cook from her. Hm? Pālikā has gone up there to learn cooking from her, and then she will come back and instruct the cooks in L.A. She wrote . . . Pālikā wrote one letter saying that she wanted . . . her husband took sannyāsa , isn't it? Yes. Bhavānanda. She wanted to stay at that farm. She knew it a long time ago. She is staying at the Press now. Hm? She works at the Press, Pālikā. Pālikā. Yes. She is transcribing all of the tapes of you lecturing back from 1966, all the way to the present. We are going to have an archive. We want to get every word that you say while you are here. So Yamunā's āśrama , how far? Āśrama ? From Los Angeles? A thousand miles maybe. It's closer to San Francisco—very far. Perhaps a thousand miles, because Los Angeles is on the southern portion of California, the southern half, and Oregon is . . . remember we went to Portland? Hm. It's Portland, and then we went to . . . we drove across to Eugene that one day, you did a program there. Śyāmasundara was driving very fast. Hm. I was in the car that day, and it's more or less in that area of Eugene, I believe. So it is somewhere in between, around there, that area, Portland. Near Portland? Yes. It's Oregon. Portland is . . . it is a horizontal state. Yes. Oregon I remember. So . . . She mentioned that she would like to come, but because there is only two of them there, and they are taking care of the Deities and they don't have much money, they may not be able to. She would like to come and see you. Money—we can send some money. Hm. But then she was wondering who would take care of the Deities. No, we can go there. (laughs) See how they are doing. (laughing) I don't know if they're . . . I don't know what kind of facilities they will have there, though, Śrīla Prabhupāda. No facilities. (devotees laugh) Just what facility? We are not for facility, we are for service. I know that. At least you'll get some good cooking. Hm? At least you'll get some good cooking. Not necessary. We don't know if there is a road up to the house or anything, really. Hm? Some farms, you know, they don't have roads up to the houses. We just don't know what the situation is. We have to make some inquiry first. (to devotees) Do you know anything about it? I don't know. Jayatīrtha was there, I think. Now he is in England. We can perhaps find out in Los Angeles a little bit more. I can write one letter to Yamunā. Pālikā will be back. We can find . . . So I will write and ask them what the situation of their farm is. Revatīnandana has been there. No man is allowed there, right? So far I know. They are trying to remain completely free from any men whatsoever. That's good. You know, in Los Angeles, Pālikā and Jadurāṇī have both cut all their hair. Hm? Pālikā and Jadurāṇī have both cut all their hair off. (break) That's good. Ha. Jaya . That is the Vedic system. Those who are husbandless, they should not dress attractively to attract the attention of another man. It is very difficult civilization for the Westerner. Viśākā will be coming here to . . . for photography for BTG. She will be here soon. It appears, though, that her farm is not growing very much. There is no need of growing. Because there was two of them before, and still two. They are not expanding at all. Prabhupāda wrote to them not to expand. But they haven't expanded at all. What is the use of expanding? No women perhaps want to stay there? I don't know. Yes, that is tapasya , austerity. But she is maintaining? Apparently. Deity picture is nice. Yes. Flowers, everything. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa . This is the beginning of spiritual life. Yesterday I have explained one verse, how Lord Rāmacandra comes . . . you have transcribed? *On the tape? I am not quite there yet. I have only done about a third of it so far. I am on that verse where Kṛṣṇa's, His body is described, I think it's the twelfth or thirteenth verse. Kṛṣṇa's body is described as the universe. He is the oldest, and . . . there was one word, dāt*-te. Hm. Datte, datte . What is that? Because I couldn't pick it up on the tape. Datte means "maintaining." Datte asya ? Hm. I am describing . . . there is one verse how the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to teach the human society as Lord Rāmacandra, as Kṛṣṇa, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu. You have come to that? Not yet. I'll be doing that today, finishing. I think one copy of that explanation may be given with the letter of Bajaj. OK. *These rascals are manufacturing. Now they are holding this conference on account of me. Because there are so many rascals, they have interpreted Bhagavad*-gītā in so many ways, but they could not do anything, and here our propaganda is going on all over the world. Yes. So they are a little ashamed. (devotees laugh) Are they genuinely ashamed, or are they . . . Genuinely. Because they see, "Who cares for us?" Who is this? There are some men in Bombay, they have a conference, *Gītā* pracar conference. That Bajaj is a very rich man, and the son of very important man of Gandhi's contemporary, Vinoba Bhave, and his father, Gandhi, they were working together. His father's name was Jamnalal Bajaj. A very rich man, he joined Gandhi's movement and was financing the movement. So this man is also very big, rich man in Bombay. Very big factory of electrical . . . what is called? Light bulbs? Ha? Light bulbs? No, no. Electrical, this fan, plug . . . Appliances. Appliances, yes. Very big factory in India. Table fan, ceiling fan, all kinds of appliances. Stove. They have got very big factory, and he is the proprietor. He is our life member. He came to see me: "Is it not possible to call that? I am ready." The same thing, "I am ready." Your Divine Grace is already doing . . . why don't they just join our society? And they have got this rascal interpretation. Even Gandhi did. That is individuality. Why do they want to develop a separate society, *Gītā* pracar conference, or their separate work, when they can simply support our work, which is doing it already? He is organizing. He is trying to organize. But why not combine? Any moment it can be done, but this rascal will not agree. They stick their own foolishness. It will never be successful. Misinterpreting on the words of Kṛṣṇa, how much offensive it is they do not know it, and they want success. They do not take seriously that it is Kṛṣṇa's instruction. They think that somebody has written a, what is called, allegory. Mythology? Mythology, yes. They do not believe there was battle of Kurukṣetra and Kṛṣṇa instructed . . . Kṛṣṇa is God and . . . they all these things . . . At the most they will admit that Kṛṣṇa was a great personality. That's all. All this Cinmayananda and this Vinoba Bhave and Gandhi and Dr. Radhakrishnan, and all rascals, Aurabindo . . . they have taken it. The evidence is there in the Vedic scriptures. Hm? The evidence is there in the Vedic scriptures, but it seems that they have developed this Māyāvādī philosophy, to "the within of Kṛṣṇa," that Radhakrishnan's philosophy. People have come to accept that. *Radhakrishnan has accepted, "That is very difficult, to deny Personality of God by reading Bhagavad*-gītā ." He wrote that? (laughter) He tried. He tried his best, but it is hardly . . . (indistinct) Rascals. One after another. They didn't at all want to serve the purpose of Kṛṣṇa. Impersonalists. "How God can be person?" They compare with themselves: "But I am a person, what can I do? How can I experience the sky?" They are in perplexity. *So why do they touch Bhagavad*-gītā then? Because it is so authorized and popular. They take the advantage, proving their foolish rascal idea. Maharishi also did one translation . . . The first six chapters. *. . . very nonsense. He talks about Bhagavad*-gītā as if it were some sort of high school physics course. What? *He speaks of Bhagavad*-gītā in the terms of physics, energy, so much nonsense. It's impossible to understand it. Now they are becoming entrapped. " As It Is ." By Your Divine Grace. And they accept it. (laughter) And this is becoming very popular; therefore they are perplexed. Bahulāśva Prabhu goes to the colleges . . . Hm? *Bahulāśva gives lectures in the colleges, and he hands out Gītās to all the students, and during the lecture he says: "So turn to page such*-and-such and you will see where it talks about karma ," and then, "Turn to this page . . ." And they are all going through the book, going through the book, and after the class he usually sells about five books, because they are so impressed that someone is so well versed in the Gītā and can explain it so nicely, and they take the book because they have never seen this before. Yes. That is . . . (pause and sipping noise, Prabhupāda puts cup down on table) Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam ( BG 7.25). Sometimes the scholar accused that your translation has a Vaiṣṇava slant. (laughter) They say that although the translations are slanted towards the devotional side, still it is a very nice book. That means they have some preconception already, of . . . Hm? *That means they have some preconception already, what to expect from Bhagavad*-gītā . They have been contaminated. The library party was saying that . . . Who? The library party, one of them was telling me that when they present . . . the scholars, they get the books, and they like the layout and the Sanskrit and everything like that, but they are not so keen on the purports because they can't speculate on anything. It's so clear and direct they've got nothing left to say themselves. (laughter) So we cannot allow any speculation. (laughter) Just see the audacity—they are speculating on the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such rascals, and we have to accept them as authority. In Bengal it is called jakamor Jakam . Just like if a small boy speaks authoritatively before his father, superior, it is called jakam . What do you call it in English? Upstart. Upstart, impudent. So all these rascals are jakam . You describe that in the Third Canto, where Vidura was referred to Maitreya by Uddhava, because Uddhava was afraid to speak; although he was qualified, he didn't want to speak while Maitreya was still present, because Maitreya was older. It is an offense: moya davyati krama. Moya davyati krama Is that it? You say in the purport that you mention that if . . . for one to speak in the presence of a superior, then that's an offense. (child crying) Who is this particular child, always crying? These children, it's the children from the karmī side that make all the noise. Most of our children are all pretty quiet. No, he is . . . This is a devotee. This is one of the devotees, but . . . . . . I am speaking of. He is always crying. They could use a gurukula here, I think. Hm? They could use a gurukula on this island. I think all of those children in the morning, though, they are from the other island. There are many devotees on the island of Maui. Hm? There are many devotees on the island of Maui, the next island. They don't live in the temple. They also have many children. (child is still crying) Rāmeśvara said that Jagadīśa is taking very seriously to expand the gurukula program. In Los Angeles one of the neighboring ladies, a karmī lady, she was passing by, and all the gurukula children were running around outside, and she said: "Oh, these are the nicest children I have ever seen." (child is still crying) This child is a little disturbing. Yeah, suffering. In the temple, no gṛhasthas allowed. (laughter) Jaya . Temple is meant for brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs. Gṛhasthas may be engaged in worshiping, taking care, managing, but families should remain outside. The problem is most of these women with children, they don't have any husbands—unmarried. Yes. One woman, she came the other day, she has one child, no husband. She was living here, and she was asked to leave because there was no space. Now she is living in the back of a car with her baby. Hm? She is living in the back of a car with her baby. She has no blanket even to take care of the child. No husband, just a baby living in the back of a car. Here? Nearby. She's coming each morning to your lectures. Many of these women are unmarried with babies. This is the social problem: women without husband. And how scientific it was that the girl, as soon as she is above ten years, the father's responsibility, how to get her married. All my sisters were married from nine to twelve years. And the twelve years old, my second sister, she was belated . . . Belated? It was lately. She was old. *Twelve years. So my mother said to my father that, "This girl is not being married, I shall commit suicide." (devotees laugh) This is, I have seen. She was elder than me by three years, my second sister. So then hastily, somehow or other, she was married to my brother*-in-law as second wife. Second wife . . . the first wife died. Formerly the boys and girls were married earlier. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was married at the seventeen years old. He married for the second time at the age of twenty years. First wife death. So formerly this was the practice. Girl utmost ten to twelve years, and boy sixteen to seventeen or utmost thirty. As soon as your sisters were married, did they remain in the same house, or did they live with the other family's house? Then, because she was twelve years old, so after one year, because generally in Bengal twelve to thirteen years is the age of puberty. My wife gave birth to first child when she was fourteen years. (devotees exclaim) She was married at eleven years old. So anyway, the idea is that it is the father's duty to get the daughter married somehow or other within thirteen years. Before they reach puberty? This is Vedic system. Very good system. Not necessarily the boy should be all well equipped. Simply to see that he is good health and he can work hard. That was all. No education, no money—nothing. Then depends on the fate. "I have given to you a boy who is healthy and he can work hard." Then they are fortunate. This was the system. They also used astrology, didn't they? *Hm? Yes. My mother's grandfather was very, very rich man, and his daughter was given to a boy whose family was rich, but they became poor, bankrupt. Practically poverty*-stricken. Ah, that boy. So my mother's grandmother preferred that, "This boy is hard-working and coming from a respectable family; *now they have become poor." So he gave her daughter to him, and later on my mother's grandmother gave him five hundred rupees to start some business. So that is at least 150 years ago, my mother's grandmother. So with that five hundred rupees he started a business, and he flourished in such a way that in Calcutta there is a place, it is called Kshetra. Kshetra, that Kshetra, he purchased the whole Kshetra. Now there are two big roads. One road is Govinda Chandra Auddy Road, that is the husband of my mother's aunt, and another road, Rakhal Chandra Auddy, that is my maternal uncle. So with that five hundred rupees he made a great fortune. And he had no money. It was given secretly by the mother*-in-law, that "You do something with that." What kind of business did he . . .? *His . . . later on he did a, started business, some lace, lace*-making. Not very lucrative, but still. So Indians still believe that that is the . . . (indistinct) . . . the verdict of all Vedic literature, tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ (SB 1.5.18). You cannot create your fortune unless God gives you; *but you can make honest effort, then depend on God. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana (BG 2.47). That is Indian philosophy. Therefore they did not make too much endeavor—easy*-going—but do something; don't be idle. That is the philosophy. So still there is no problem. The boy is married, and he works honestly, and the wife also works honestly as householder. They live peacefully. Not that "I must have this comfort, that comfort." Just like our, that rascal . . . (break) No. All this Western wife means, they call it "White elephant." In India they call it. You . . .? White women? White elephant, to maintain. Because formerly people were . . . boys were coming in the Western countries, sometimes they married European wife, and later on, after going back, they found it is a white elephant. (devotees laugh) That's great. White elephant, I mean, if you cannot maintain properly, then there was divorce. These women are never satisfied. Therefore they found it "White elephant," to maintain an elephant, white in color. (devotees laugh) A white elephant is particularly useless? Hm? A white elephant is more useless than another elephant? No, elephant nobody can maintain. It is very difficult to maintain, and he has to be given forty kilograms food daily, and kilo, what is called, forty kilos? Hundred pounds. I was just wondering why white . . . You have seen elephant? Yes, in India. Ha. For them such big capātīs are made. (devotee laughs) A whole family's wheat flour will be given, and that is also not sufficient. So many capātīs should be given. Only the kings. Now the princely order is finished, now there is no transaction for elephant, horse. No customers. Formerly there was a market yearly held: horse, elephant, all animals, cows, they were being sold, near Patna. Big. Now since last twenty years it is stopped. Nobody is going to purchase horse and . . . That, er, so . . . (break) . . . diminishing, they can't afford to keep them. Twenty is maintaining in this age; that is also to his credit, and dowry. They want to do away with that also. And just see, when Kṛṣṇa's mother was married to Vasudeva, dowry: so many hundreds of chariots, so many horses, so many elephants, so many maidservants. Who will be able to keep them? Apart from ornament, jewelry, sārī to the girl, these things were also given, royal, royal family. Then if he can't maintain, then he'll not . . . otherwise what is the glory there, if he maintains only tin car? This is a tin car, canister. As soon as he is stuck up: brr, brr, brr. He has got experience, tin car. Where is elephant? If the president just takes a little bit of money, they kick him out. Hm? If the president just takes a little bit of money, they kick him out immediately. President? If the president of the United States . . . Ha. Ha. . . . if he tries to use his position for a little bit of, ah, like a kingly enjoyment, then they just kick him out, because he's not a king. All of them are doing that. They are taking so many women. At least that Kennedy was, before. Yes, that's been exposed. And this Nixon was also doing that. They take advantage. There seems to be no solution, though, because in the Western society there is no protection offered by parents, so these people are coming to become devotees. So what do we do? How can we arrange our society? This is always point of discussion. We have to maintain them. They have come to Kṛṣṇa. How can we refuse them? Some arrangement may be made. The government must help. Approach government, that these unprotected girls . . . but they are . . . ha? That's a very good idea. I don't know if they'll do . . . Yes, welfare society, they must pay. How we can maintain? But we cannot refuse them. Are they not getting welfare, money? Some of them. With children they usually get welfare. So that money, they are giving to the society? Usually they keep it for their apartment and food. It is not so much money; it is just enough for them to maintain. So they do not take prasādam in the temple? Depends on where it is. Huh? Depends on the location. In Los Angeles the householders get food stamps from the government, and they purchase their food like that, and they . . . They . . . they are not really trained up, though. Pradyumna, he's a little bit sick, so some of the girls, they were wanting to help him, like Kuśa. So they had some food stamps, so they went out and bought the most nonsensical medicines. Hmm? They went out and bought the most nonsensical modern medicines. Clorofil and so many things like this, and the price was $22. They bought with food stamps. Rather they could have bought so many things for offering to the Deities. Even the food stamps can be used, but no management. So this is a problem, to maintain these husbandless women. Oh, yes. And also gṛhasthas . Many of the gṛhasthas at least are doing saṅkīrtana . Hm? Many of the gṛhasthas are doing saṅkīrtana , going out and distributing books, preaching. They are giving some service. Yes. That is wanted, gṛhastha . Just see the foolish law, that there is no sufficient boys to keep wife at least, and they have made laws, one wife. Why one wife? In this philosophy of democracy there is not supposed to be any discrimination. They would say that this is discrimination against women, because in the Western countries actually the women have this concept that they are just as good as men. They are thinking like that, and the men are thinking also the women are probably just as good. They don't . . . Then why are they in difficulty, without husband? The women argue that the men are also in difficulty. But they like that? This neglected position, lying down at the back of the car without any husband, without any provisions, they like it? These white elephants are very crazy. If they like it, then let them be like that. Western women are . . . they have no training at all. They say that because they have been trained in the past that they are less intelligent and that they are weaker, therefore it has ruined them in their older age. They have to defeat all this. They have to prove their independence by living without man's protection. They cannot appreciate that? Man's protection? Not so much any more. There is a whole current of thought with this women's liberation. There's no protection anyway. Yes. The men run off anyway. They are, in one sense, they are right, because the men do not protect them; they exploit them for sex life. So that is one reason why they are becoming successful in this philosophy. There is reason, but the man does not marry because there are so many implications. But by nature's way women like to be protected. Yes. Therefore called svāmī, svāmī . Husband is called svāmī , means protector. (dogs barking) Where are these dogs? That's outside, next door. We find that in our society practically none of the brahmacārīs want to get married because they see that the women are not so chaste. That is the psychology. That is the psychology. They know that, "The girl whom I am going to marry, she will never be faithful." That is the impression. "So why shall I marry and take charge?" This is the psychology. I know in beginning, 1965, one carpenter boy he was coming to me; he gave me some benches, secondhand. So I asked him, "Why don't you get yourself married?" because I did not know. So he replied, "Swamījī, I know that I'll not get a faithful, chaste wife," he said. Then I could understand the psychology why the boys do not get married. No husband wants an unchaste, unfaithful wife. That is a shock to him. And here you have to allow the wife to go out with her friend. You cannot object. Wife to go with? With her friend. To go out with her friends; just do whatever she likes. Oh, in the Western countries. I saw that John Lennon. He was maintaining her former husband or friend, the wife's . . . In the same house. Yoko Ono. She already had a friend, and John Lennon wanted her. So he took him also? Yes. (laughter) And he was working as his garden manager. Now that boy has kidnapped the girl. Not the . . . the daughter, and he has went away, and now John has gone after him. They've split now, anyway. Ha? They've split up now, anyway. He wrote one song, that John Lennon, it was very blasphemous. Ha? He wrote one song on a record album. It was called "God is a Symbol," and he mentioned George. He said: "I don't believe in this, I don't believe in that, I don't believe in *Gītā* . What has Kṛṣṇa got on you, George?" Like this. And he went on. At the end he says: "All I believe is in Yoko and me—that's reality." (laughter) He put all these things that he don't believe in, "I don't believe in heaven, and I don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, and I don't believe in this, and I don't believe in that. There's just Yoko and me." Who cares for you? That's what I thought when I read it. I thought, "Well, who cares for him anyway?" All these things are going on. Another one of them said: "Hare Kṛṣṇa doesn't have anything on me." He said? I think it was Paul that said that. Right? No. It was John. Rascal. *Actually, they are very low*-class people. They came from Liverpool, low class. Everyone is low class. Everyone low class. What they have got? Simply they got some money and became respected. That's all. Everywhere money is everything. Only on account of, otherwise what qualifications they have got? George, suppose he has got some money, but he has got qualification, he has done something for Kṛṣṇa. He has taken. I asked him first of all $19,000 for paying the bill of Kṛṣṇa, and he paid. You know that? Oh, yes. In America for a long time when we would distribute the books we would say: "George Harrison paid for this," and immediately they would take it. Hm. He actually did pay—$19,000. On the strength of that foreword that he put in the inside cover, that must have sold hundreds of thousands of books, just by showing them that. Yes. I asked him to write it. And I have acknowledged his money. Yes. We show that to people when we distribute the book. We say: "See, here the author is thanking George Harrison for the money. He has paid for it," and they go, "Aha," and they buy the book. He is a good boy. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, when Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva appeared, did He appear in India? Or was it Indra*-loka? I told you . . . (indistinct) *It describes in the Bhāgavatam that Hiraṇyakaśipu, he was seated in the throne of Indra, in Indra's palace, so then we were wondering, well, did Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva appear on the planet earth or was it in Indra*-loka? It was not in this planet, so far I . . . but we are not concerned about the history; we are concerned about the pastime. Lord Nṛsiṁha is very popular in the West. When people hear about Him . . . because in the West everyone is brought up with so many violent stories, so when they hear the story of Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, they become very attracted. And everyone's father is a great demon also. So why not publish a chapter from *Bhāgavatam* ? I think Seventh Canto is full of Prahlāda's . . . Yes. We actually did that. One time we published the Teachings of Prahlāda Mahārāja , a little pamphlet. That was very popular. So you are not printing now? No. We have not printed it for many years. We can print it again if you like. I think the Seventh Canto will be very popular. That can be reprinted. There are so many violent stories in the *Bhāgavatam* . Ha? There are so many descriptions of fighting in the *Bhāgavatam* , and they by far excel anything the mundaners can even conceive of. Like where Jarāsandha gets torn in half, or where his army was defeated and it describes how the bodies were floating like islands . . . Kṛṣṇa is killing so many demons from Vṛndāvana. Yes. They can't conceive of anything like that at all. It is amazing to them. Their idea is God cannot kill anyone. No? Hm. If He's God. Isn't that the idea? Yes. They have that materialistic conception of goodness. When we used to distribute the Back to Godhead magazine that had Balarāma killing Pralambāsura on the back cover, the black people would ask why the white person is killing the black one. So it was very difficult to sell that magazine to black people. You worship black Kṛṣṇa. Why did you not say? Black is not neglected. We worship, you see our Deity, black Kṛṣṇa. You are actually the best book distributor. Hm? You are the best book distributor. You know all the good lines. (pause) The sign on the front of the Press is ordered now. Hm? They have ordered the sign for the front of the Press with your name, and we are going to try our best to have it up by the time you get there. Generally it takes one month for them to carve the letters, but we will try to have it up when you get there. Rāmeśvara said he is very, very sorry that when you originally told him about the sign he had already purchased the other letters, and he did not want to displease you by spending more money, and he is very sorry. He has immediately ordered the letters for you. That was two years ago he said that it should be taken. Actually, devotees at the Press, they are . . . it is wonderful how dedicated they are. Whenever a book is coming out, I give an iṣṭagoṣṭhī , and I tell them that Śrīla Prabhupāda is desiring very much to have this book out, and they will do anything. They will stay up all night . . . One girl wrote some articles. *Hm. In the Back to Godhead . . . it was a one*-page article from that girl who joined. She is working still? Yes. She was . . . I went to Princeton University Press to study some of their methods . . . Yes. Your name is also. Yes. Unfortunately. And she was there. She was the type composer. She is still with us? Oh, yes. Now she is transcribing Jayadvaita's and Hayagriva's tapes, the editorial tapes. She will work all day and all night also, whenever is necessary. She is married or no? No. Very few devotees get married now. It is very, very rare. If one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, this marriage problem does not disturb. We're too busy to get married. (laughs) No time. Brahmacārī . . . man can remain without sex. It is not very difficult for him to. But women? Man can be trained up. He can remain throughout the whole life without sex. But it is a little difficult, unless they are given special protection. Special protection means strictly not to intermingle with any boy. Then they do. That is not possible in the Western . . . otherwise she can remain brahmacāriṇī under the protection of elder brother, or father and mother—not to allow—strict—mix freely to the boys. In this country if they are left under the protection of their father and mother, then their father and mother will order them to have sex life. They make the girl prostitute to bring money. I have got experience. They do not like their young girls to marry. Better find out boys, and bring money. And once woman is trained up to prostitution, she will never become faithful wife. It is impossible. She is spoilt. *In America, if the woman is not like a prostitute, then she is ridiculed. All her friends ridicule her. Most of the degradation actually occurs in schools. When you go to school, the grade school, the elementary school and the high school and then college, this is where you learn all of this sex life, all of the intoxication. This is where you learn it. You learn it from the other children. Actually, that's the source of all the degradation. The meat*-eating is taught by the parents, but everything else is school . . . Not only the parents. At the school they distribute contraceptive ingredients, tablets. In India it is also a problem. In movie screens also, cinemas. Hm? Cinemas. They see all the things going on on the cinema screen. And the filthy literatures also. Literature? Filthy literatures, everywhere. Magazines. Every newsagent sells pornographic literature. Every newsagent. In a large city it is not possible to walk down a main street without seeing magazines with naked women—everywhere. That's all they have. *Even the advertisements for so*-called respectable goods now, they also feature naked women and so many things. It's just not possible, in the West, to avoid it. Not only that, on public streets they are embracing, kissing. In India you don't even see that at all. It's very nice. Even now. In fact in places like Māyāpura and Vṛndāvana, you won't even see a husband and wife walking together. That's very unusual. There's not so much emphasis on sex life there. Western society is all sex life. Unnatural life. Western society is unnatural. They're even making surveys that they think that people would work harder if instead of having a lunch break they would have a sex break. So the husband and wife, during lunch hour, they could have sex life and go back to work again. Acchā ? This is public news. I read it in the Time magazine. Even in the prisons, they allow the wives of the prisoners to come so that . . . and stay for the weekend at the jails. They were doing that program in England, because the men were complaining, they were becoming agitated, no sex life. They are prisoners, criminals, so they were allowing their wives to come. What if he has no wife? They become homosex also. Prison is very bad. Big problems. One devotee went to prison, and they had to give him a special place just so he would not be attacked by other men for sex life. This was three years ago. Homosex? Yes. He did not want it, so he did not want to be homosexual, so they had to put him in a place where there were no other men, because practically all of them were like that. They became so insane after sex life. He escaped from prison, though. He jumped over the wall, and for three days went through the mountains with no food, and he escaped, then he went to India. He escaped, how? He jumped over the wall of the prison. Acchā . Kṛṣṇa empowered him. I sent books to the prison chaplain, Kṛṣṇa Books , so the prison chaplain would give them to him, but they came back in the mail. It said: "Cannot deliver. The prisoner has escaped." He did some service? The chaplain? No. He distributed some book? No, this boy. Who was he? He was a devotee? Vidura. His name was Vidura. I have not heard of him many years. Maybe he left. But he was a . . . Vidura, I think he is in Vṛndāvana. Brahmacārī . He is thin boy, blond hair? I have not seen him in years. He wasn't there when I was there. Hm? He wasn't there when I was there. I heard the name. So he has gone to India? When he first escaped from prison he went to India. This was around two or three years ago. Oh. Then no one heard of him after that. He did not send any letters, to avoid being caught. He jumped over the wall? Yes. He jumped over the wall, then he went through the mountains of Pennsylvania to escape. He had his striped prison suit on. They give 58:53 them a striped suit in the prison. And all the neighboring towns, they tell the people if they see anyone like that, then they will give a big reward. So he was very frightened. He was walking through towns with his striped suit, and people were seeing him. Sanatāna Goswāmī did. Yes. He also didn't want to go on the main road. He walked through the jungles. He could not jump over. He paid for that. (laughter) What money he had, he paid. But he did all this for Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Jaya . In those days it was unique. Unique? How he arranged for getting free from prison. It wasn't a very common thing to bribe the jailer? Heh? It was not a very common thing to bribe the jailer? He had money, he bribed. But who has money? It was from his brother? It was Rūpa Gosvāmī's money? Yes. Rūpa Gosvāmī left one fourth for family expenditures. *Fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa, twenty*-five percent for family, and twenty-five percent for personal emergency. I remember when I joined the temple, I gave all my money to the temple, and then my parents found out, one friend told them. So they wrote a letter demanding to know why I hadn't sent them the money. The one fourth. (laughter) No, not the one fourth. But they wanted to know why I had given all the money to the temple. They said, "You could have given it to your brother, or," he'd just got married, "or you could have given it to us, or . . ." Like this, very upset. When was? They are in England. Oh. In England, you gave to our temple? No. I joined in Sydney, so I gave to the temple in Sydney. That's all. (devotees offer obeisances) Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember I . . . we were speaking in India . . . did you want to use the Dictaphone in the afternoon or not? I don't know. (end) Conversation -- May 15, 1976, Honolulu . . . she still upstairs? No, Prabhupāda. Pālikā is up there now learning how to cook from her. Hm? Pālikā has gone up there to learn cooking from her, and then she will come back and instruct the cooks in L.A. She wrote . . . Pālikā wrote one letter saying that she wanted . . . her husband took sannyāsa , isn't it? Yes. Bhavānanda. She wanted to stay at that farm. She knew it a long time ago. She is staying at the Press now. Hm? She works at the Press, Pālikā. Pālikā. Yes. She is transcribing all of the tapes of you lecturing back from 1966, all the way to the present. We are going to have an archive. We want to get every word that you say while you are here. So Yamunā's āśrama , how far? Āśrama ? From Los Angeles? A thousand miles maybe. It's closer to San Francisco—very far. Perhaps a thousand miles, because Los Angeles is on the southern portion of California, the southern half, and Oregon is . . . remember we went to Portland? Hm. It's Portland, and then we went to . . . we drove across to Eugene that one day, you did a program there. Śyāmasundara was driving very fast. Hm. I was in the car that day, and it's more or less in that area of Eugene, I believe. So it is somewhere in between, around there, that area, Portland. Near Portland? Yes. It's Oregon. Portland is . . . it is a horizontal state. Yes. Oregon I remember. So . . . She mentioned that she would like to come, but because there is only two of them there, and they are taking care of the Deities and they don't have much money, they may not be able to. She would like to come and see you. Money—we can send some money. Hm. But then she was wondering who would take care of the Deities. No, we can go there. (laughs) See how they are doing. (laughing) I don't know if they're . . . I don't know what kind of facilities they will have there, though, Śrīla Prabhupāda. No facilities. (devotees laugh) Just what facility? We are not for facility, we are for service. I know that. At least you'll get some good cooking. Hm? At least you'll get some good cooking. Not necessary. We don't know if there is a road up to the house or anything, really. Hm? Some farms, you know, they don't have roads up to the houses. We just don't know what the situation is. We have to make some inquiry first. (to devotees) Do you know anything about it? I don't know. Jayatīrtha was there, I think. Now he is in England. We can perhaps find out in Los Angeles a little bit more. I can write one letter to Yamunā. Pālikā will be back. We can find . . . So I will write and ask them what the situation of their farm is. Revatīnandana has been there. No man is allowed there, right? So far I know. They are trying to remain completely free from any men whatsoever. That's good. You know, in Los Angeles, Pālikā and Jadurāṇī have both cut all their hair. Hm? Pālikā and Jadurāṇī have both cut all their hair off. (break) That's good. Ha. Jaya . That is the Vedic system. Those who are husbandless, they should not dress attractively to attract the attention of another man. It is very difficult civilization for the Westerner. Viśākā will be coming here to . . . for photography for BTG. She will be here soon. It appears, though, that her farm is not growing very much. There is no need of growing. Because there was two of them before, and still two. They are not expanding at all. Prabhupāda wrote to them not to expand. But they haven't expanded at all. What is the use of expanding? No women perhaps want to stay there? I don't know. Yes, that is tapasya , austerity. But she is maintaining? Apparently. Deity picture is nice. Yes. Flowers, everything. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa . This is the beginning of spiritual life. Yesterday I have explained one verse, how Lord Rāmacandra comes . . . you have transcribed? *On the tape? I am not quite there yet. I have only done about a third of it so far. I am on that verse where Kṛṣṇa's, His body is described, I think it's the twelfth or thirteenth verse. Kṛṣṇa's body is described as the universe. He is the oldest, and . . . there was one word, dāt*-te. Hm. Datte, datte . What is that? Because I couldn't pick it up on the tape. Datte means "maintaining." Datte asya ? Hm. I am describing . . . there is one verse how the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to teach the human society as Lord Rāmacandra, as Kṛṣṇa, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu. You have come to that? Not yet. I'll be doing that today, finishing. I think one copy of that explanation may be given with the letter of Bajaj. OK. *These rascals are manufacturing. Now they are holding this conference on account of me. Because there are so many rascals, they have interpreted Bhagavad*-gītā in so many ways, but they could not do anything, and here our propaganda is going on all over the world. Yes. So they are a little ashamed. (devotees laugh) Are they genuinely ashamed, or are they . . . Genuinely. Because they see, "Who cares for us?" Who is this? There are some men in Bombay, they have a conference, *Gītā* pracar conference. That Bajaj is a very rich man, and the son of very important man of Gandhi's contemporary, Vinoba Bhave, and his father, Gandhi, they were working together. His father's name was Jamnalal Bajaj. A very rich man, he joined Gandhi's movement and was financing the movement. So this man is also very big, rich man in Bombay. Very big factory of electrical . . . what is called? Light bulbs? Ha? Light bulbs? No, no. Electrical, this fan, plug . . . Appliances. Appliances, yes. Very big factory in India. Table fan, ceiling fan, all kinds of appliances. Stove. They have got very big factory, and he is the proprietor. He is our life member. He came to see me: "Is it not possible to call that? I am ready." The same thing, "I am ready." Your Divine Grace is already doing . . . why don't they just join our society? And they have got this rascal interpretation. Even Gandhi did. That is individuality. Why do they want to develop a separate society, *Gītā* pracar conference, or their separate work, when they can simply support our work, which is doing it already? He is organizing. He is trying to organize. But why not combine? Any moment it can be done, but this rascal will not agree. They stick their own foolishness. It will never be successful. Misinterpreting on the words of Kṛṣṇa, how much offensive it is they do not know it, and they want success. They do not take seriously that it is Kṛṣṇa's instruction. They think that somebody has written a, what is called, allegory. Mythology? Mythology, yes. They do not believe there was battle of Kurukṣetra and Kṛṣṇa instructed . . . Kṛṣṇa is God and . . . they all these things . . . At the most they will admit that Kṛṣṇa was a great personality. That's all. All this Cinmayananda and this Vinoba Bhave and Gandhi and Dr. Radhakrishnan, and all rascals, Aurabindo . . . they have taken it. The evidence is there in the Vedic scriptures. Hm? The evidence is there in the Vedic scriptures, but it seems that they have developed this Māyāvādī philosophy, to "the within of Kṛṣṇa," that Radhakrishnan's philosophy. People have come to accept that. *Radhakrishnan has accepted, "That is very difficult, to deny Personality of God by reading Bhagavad*-gītā ." He wrote that? (laughter) He tried. He tried his best, but it is hardly . . . (indistinct) Rascals. One after another. They didn't at all want to serve the purpose of Kṛṣṇa. Impersonalists. "How God can be person?" They compare with themselves: "But I am a person, what can I do? How can I experience the sky?" They are in perplexity. *So why do they touch Bhagavad*-gītā then? Because it is so authorized and popular. They take the advantage, proving their foolish rascal idea. Maharishi also did one translation . . . The first six chapters. *. . . very nonsense. He talks about Bhagavad*-gītā as if it were some sort of high school physics course. What? *He speaks of Bhagavad*-gītā in the terms of physics, energy, so much nonsense. It's impossible to understand it. Now they are becoming entrapped. " As It Is ." By Your Divine Grace. And they accept it. (laughter) And this is becoming very popular; therefore they are perplexed. Bahulāśva Prabhu goes to the colleges . . . Hm? *Bahulāśva gives lectures in the colleges, and he hands out Gītās to all the students, and during the lecture he says: "So turn to page such*-and-such and you will see where it talks about karma ," and then, "Turn to this page . . ." And they are all going through the book, going through the book, and after the class he usually sells about five books, because they are so impressed that someone is so well versed in the Gītā and can explain it so nicely, and they take the book because they have never seen this before. Yes. That is . . . (pause and sipping noise, Prabhupāda puts cup down on table) Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam ( BG 7.25). Sometimes the scholar accused that your translation has a Vaiṣṇava slant. (laughter) They say that although the translations are slanted towards the devotional side, still it is a very nice book. That means they have some preconception already, of . . . Hm? *That means they have some preconception already, what to expect from Bhagavad*-gītā . They have been contaminated. The library party was saying that . . . Who? The library party, one of them was telling me that when they present . . . the scholars, they get the books, and they like the layout and the Sanskrit and everything like that, but they are not so keen on the purports because they can't speculate on anything. It's so clear and direct they've got nothing left to say themselves. (laughter) So we cannot allow any speculation. (laughter) Just see the audacity—they are speculating on the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such rascals, and we have to accept them as authority. In Bengal it is called jakamor Jakam . Just like if a small boy speaks authoritatively before his father, superior, it is called jakam . What do you call it in English? Upstart. Upstart, impudent. So all these rascals are jakam . You describe that in the Third Canto, where Vidura was referred to Maitreya by Uddhava, because Uddhava was afraid to speak; although he was qualified, he didn't want to speak while Maitreya was still present, because Maitreya was older. It is an offense: moya davyati krama. Moya davyati krama Is that it? You say in the purport that you mention that if . . . for one to speak in the presence of a superior, then that's an offense. (child crying) Who is this particular child, always crying? These children, it's the children from the karmī side that make all the noise. Most of our children are all pretty quiet. No, he is . . . This is a devotee. This is one of the devotees, but . . . . . . I am speaking of. He is always crying. They could use a gurukula here, I think. Hm? They could use a gurukula on this island. I think all of those children in the morning, though, they are from the other island. There are many devotees on the island of Maui. Hm? There are many devotees on the island of Maui, the next island. They don't live in the temple. They also have many children. (child is still crying) Rāmeśvara said that Jagadīśa is taking very seriously to expand the gurukula program. In Los Angeles one of the neighboring ladies, a karmī lady, she was passing by, and all the gurukula children were running around outside, and she said: "Oh, these are the nicest children I have ever seen." (child is still crying) This child is a little disturbing. Yeah, suffering. In the temple, no gṛhasthas allowed. (laughter) Jaya . Temple is meant for brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs. Gṛhasthas may be engaged in worshiping, taking care, managing, but families should remain outside. The problem is most of these women with children, they don't have any husbands—unmarried. Yes. One woman, she came the other day, she has one child, no husband. She was living here, and she was asked to leave because there was no space. Now she is living in the back of a car with her baby. Hm? She is living in the back of a car with her baby. She has no blanket even to take care of the child. No husband, just a baby living in the back of a car. Here? Nearby. She's coming each morning to your lectures. Many of these women are unmarried with babies. This is the social problem: women without husband. And how scientific it was that the girl, as soon as she is above ten years, the father's responsibility, how to get her married. All my sisters were married from nine to twelve years. And the twelve years old, my second sister, she was belated . . . Belated? It was lately. She was old. *Twelve years. So my mother said to my father that, "This girl is not being married, I shall commit suicide." (devotees laugh) This is, I have seen. She was elder than me by three years, my second sister. So then hastily, somehow or other, she was married to my brother*-in-law as second wife. Second wife . . . the first wife died. Formerly the boys and girls were married earlier. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was married at the seventeen years old. He married for the second time at the age of twenty years. First wife death. So formerly this was the practice. Girl utmost ten to twelve years, and boy sixteen to seventeen or utmost thirty. As soon as your sisters were married, did they remain in the same house, or did they live with the other family's house? Then, because she was twelve years old, so after one year, because generally in Bengal twelve to thirteen years is the age of puberty. My wife gave birth to first child when she was fourteen years. (devotees exclaim) She was married at eleven years old. So anyway, the idea is that it is the father's duty to get the daughter married somehow or other within thirteen years. Before they reach puberty? This is Vedic system. Very good system. Not necessarily the boy should be all well equipped. Simply to see that he is good health and he can work hard. That was all. No education, no money—nothing. Then depends on the fate. "I have given to you a boy who is healthy and he can work hard." Then they are fortunate. This was the system. They also used astrology, didn't they? *Hm? Yes. My mother's grandfather was very, very rich man, and his daughter was given to a boy whose family was rich, but they became poor, bankrupt. Practically poverty*-stricken. Ah, that boy. So my mother's grandmother preferred that, "This boy is hard-working and coming from a respectable family; *now they have become poor." So he gave her daughter to him, and later on my mother's grandmother gave him five hundred rupees to start some business. So that is at least 150 years ago, my mother's grandmother. So with that five hundred rupees he started a business, and he flourished in such a way that in Calcutta there is a place, it is called Kshetra. Kshetra, that Kshetra, he purchased the whole Kshetra. Now there are two big roads. One road is Govinda Chandra Auddy Road, that is the husband of my mother's aunt, and another road, Rakhal Chandra Auddy, that is my maternal uncle. So with that five hundred rupees he made a great fortune. And he had no money. It was given secretly by the mother*-in-law, that "You do something with that." What kind of business did he . . .? *His . . . later on he did a, started business, some lace, lace*-making. Not very lucrative, but still. So Indians still believe that that is the . . . (indistinct) . . . the verdict of all Vedic literature, tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ (SB 1.5.18). You cannot create your fortune unless God gives you; *but you can make honest effort, then depend on God. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana (BG 2.47). That is Indian philosophy. Therefore they did not make too much endeavor—easy*-going—but do something; don't be idle. That is the philosophy. So still there is no problem. The boy is married, and he works honestly, and the wife also works honestly as householder. They live peacefully. Not that "I must have this comfort, that comfort." Just like our, that rascal . . . (break) No. All this Western wife means, they call it "White elephant." In India they call it. You . . .? White women? White elephant, to maintain. Because formerly people were . . . boys were coming in the Western countries, sometimes they married European wife, and later on, after going back, they found it is a white elephant. (devotees laugh) That's great. White elephant, I mean, if you cannot maintain properly, then there was divorce. These women are never satisfied. Therefore they found it "White elephant," to maintain an elephant, white in color. (devotees laugh) A white elephant is particularly useless? Hm? A white elephant is more useless than another elephant? No, elephant nobody can maintain. It is very difficult to maintain, and he has to be given forty kilograms food daily, and kilo, what is called, forty kilos? Hundred pounds. I was just wondering why white . . . You have seen elephant? Yes, in India. Ha. For them such big capātīs are made. (devotee laughs) A whole family's wheat flour will be given, and that is also not sufficient. So many capātīs should be given. Only the kings. Now the princely order is finished, now there is no transaction for elephant, horse. No customers. Formerly there was a market yearly held: horse, elephant, all animals, cows, they were being sold, near Patna. Big. Now since last twenty years it is stopped. Nobody is going to purchase horse and . . . That, er, so . . . (break) . . . diminishing, they can't afford to keep them. Twenty is maintaining in this age; that is also to his credit, and dowry. They want to do away with that also. And just see, when Kṛṣṇa's mother was married to Vasudeva, dowry: so many hundreds of chariots, so many horses, so many elephants, so many maidservants. Who will be able to keep them? Apart from ornament, jewelry, sārī to the girl, these things were also given, royal, royal family. Then if he can't maintain, then he'll not . . . otherwise what is the glory there, if he maintains only tin car? This is a tin car, canister. As soon as he is stuck up: brr, brr, brr. He has got experience, tin car. Where is elephant? If the president just takes a little bit of money, they kick him out. Hm? If the president just takes a little bit of money, they kick him out immediately. President? If the president of the United States . . . Ha. Ha. . . . if he tries to use his position for a little bit of, ah, like a kingly enjoyment, then they just kick him out, because he's not a king. All of them are doing that. They are taking so many women. At least that Kennedy was, before. Yes, that's been exposed. And this Nixon was also doing that. They take advantage. There seems to be no solution, though, because in the Western society there is no protection offered by parents, so these people are coming to become devotees. So what do we do? How can we arrange our society? This is always point of discussion. We have to maintain them. They have come to Kṛṣṇa. How can we refuse them? Some arrangement may be made. The government must help. Approach government, that these unprotected girls . . . but they are . . . ha? That's a very good idea. I don't know if they'll do . . . Yes, welfare society, they must pay. How we can maintain? But we cannot refuse them. Are they not getting welfare, money? Some of them. With children they usually get welfare. So that money, they are giving to the society? Usually they keep it for their apartment and food. It is not so much money; it is just enough for them to maintain. So they do not take prasādam in the temple? Depends on where it is. Huh? Depends on the location. In Los Angeles the householders get food stamps from the government, and they purchase their food like that, and they . . . They . . . they are not really trained up, though. Pradyumna, he's a little bit sick, so some of the girls, they were wanting to help him, like Kuśa. So they had some food stamps, so they went out and bought the most nonsensical medicines. Hmm? They went out and bought the most nonsensical modern medicines. Clorofil and so many things like this, and the price was $22. They bought with food stamps. Rather they could have bought so many things for offering to the Deities. Even the food stamps can be used, but no management. So this is a problem, to maintain these husbandless women. Oh, yes. And also gṛhasthas . Many of the gṛhasthas at least are doing saṅkīrtana . Hm? Many of the gṛhasthas are doing saṅkīrtana , going out and distributing books, preaching. They are giving some service. Yes. That is wanted, gṛhastha . Just see the foolish law, that there is no sufficient boys to keep wife at least, and they have made laws, one wife. Why one wife? In this philosophy of democracy there is not supposed to be any discrimination. They would say that this is discrimination against women, because in the Western countries actually the women have this concept that they are just as good as men. They are thinking like that, and the men are thinking also the women are probably just as good. They don't . . . Then why are they in difficulty, without husband? The women argue that the men are also in difficulty. But they like that? This neglected position, lying down at the back of the car without any husband, without any provisions, they like it? These white elephants are very crazy. If they like it, then let them be like that. Western women are . . . they have no training at all. They say that because they have been trained in the past that they are less intelligent and that they are weaker, therefore it has ruined them in their older age. They have to defeat all this. They have to prove their independence by living without man's protection. They cannot appreciate that? Man's protection? Not so much any more. There is a whole current of thought with this women's liberation. There's no protection anyway. Yes. The men run off anyway. They are, in one sense, they are right, because the men do not protect them; they exploit them for sex life. So that is one reason why they are becoming successful in this philosophy. There is reason, but the man does not marry because there are so many implications. But by nature's way women like to be protected. Yes. Therefore called svāmī, svāmī . Husband is called svāmī , means protector. (dogs barking) Where are these dogs? That's outside, next door. We find that in our society practically none of the brahmacārīs want to get married because they see that the women are not so chaste. That is the psychology. That is the psychology. They know that, "The girl whom I am going to marry, she will never be faithful." That is the impression. "So why shall I marry and take charge?" This is the psychology. I know in beginning, 1965, one carpenter boy he was coming to me; he gave me some benches, secondhand. So I asked him, "Why don't you get yourself married?" because I did not know. So he replied, "Swamījī, I know that I'll not get a faithful, chaste wife," he said. Then I could understand the psychology why the boys do not get married. No husband wants an unchaste, unfaithful wife. That is a shock to him. And here you have to allow the wife to go out with her friend. You cannot object. Wife to go with? With her friend. To go out with her friends; just do whatever she likes. Oh, in the Western countries. I saw that John Lennon. He was maintaining her former husband or friend, the wife's . . . In the same house. Yoko Ono. She already had a friend, and John Lennon wanted her. So he took him also? Yes. (laughter) And he was working as his garden manager. Now that boy has kidnapped the girl. Not the . . . the daughter, and he has went away, and now John has gone after him. They've split now, anyway. Ha? They've split up now, anyway. He wrote one song, that John Lennon, it was very blasphemous. Ha? He wrote one song on a record album. It was called "God is a Symbol," and he mentioned George. He said: "I don't believe in this, I don't believe in that, I don't believe in *Gītā* . What has Kṛṣṇa got on you, George?" Like this. And he went on. At the end he says: "All I believe is in Yoko and me—that's reality." (laughter) He put all these things that he don't believe in, "I don't believe in heaven, and I don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, and I don't believe in this, and I don't believe in that. There's just Yoko and me." Who cares for you? That's what I thought when I read it. I thought, "Well, who cares for him anyway?" All these things are going on. Another one of them said: "Hare Kṛṣṇa doesn't have anything on me." He said? I think it was Paul that said that. Right? No. It was John. Rascal. *Actually, they are very low*-class people. They came from Liverpool, low class. Everyone is low class. Everyone low class. What they have got? Simply they got some money and became respected. That's all. Everywhere money is everything. Only on account of, otherwise what qualifications they have got? George, suppose he has got some money, but he has got qualification, he has done something for Kṛṣṇa. He has taken. I asked him first of all $19,000 for paying the bill of Kṛṣṇa, and he paid. You know that? Oh, yes. In America for a long time when we would distribute the books we would say: "George Harrison paid for this," and immediately they would take it. Hm. He actually did pay—$19,000. On the strength of that foreword that he put in the inside cover, that must have sold hundreds of thousands of books, just by showing them that. Yes. I asked him to write it. And I have acknowledged his money. Yes. We show that to people when we distribute the book. We say: "See, here the author is thanking George Harrison for the money. He has paid for it," and they go, "Aha," and they buy the book. He is a good boy. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, when Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva appeared, did He appear in India? Or was it Indra*-loka? I told you . . . (indistinct) *It describes in the Bhāgavatam that Hiraṇyakaśipu, he was seated in the throne of Indra, in Indra's palace, so then we were wondering, well, did Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva appear on the planet earth or was it in Indra*-loka? It was not in this planet, so far I . . . but we are not concerned about the history; we are concerned about the pastime. Lord Nṛsiṁha is very popular in the West. When people hear about Him . . . because in the West everyone is brought up with so many violent stories, so when they hear the story of Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, they become very attracted. And everyone's father is a great demon also. So why not publish a chapter from *Bhāgavatam* ? I think Seventh Canto is full of Prahlāda's . . . Yes. We actually did that. One time we published the Teachings of Prahlāda Mahārāja , a little pamphlet. That was very popular. So you are not printing now? No. We have not printed it for many years. We can print it again if you like. I think the Seventh Canto will be very popular. That can be reprinted. There are so many violent stories in the *Bhāgavatam* . Ha? There are so many descriptions of fighting in the *Bhāgavatam* , and they by far excel anything the mundaners can even conceive of. Like where Jarāsandha gets torn in half, or where his army was defeated and it describes how the bodies were floating like islands . . . Kṛṣṇa is killing so many demons from Vṛndāvana. Yes. They can't conceive of anything like that at all. It is amazing to them. Their idea is God cannot kill anyone. No? Hm. If He's God. Isn't that the idea? Yes. They have that materialistic conception of goodness. When we used to distribute the Back to Godhead magazine that had Balarāma killing Pralambāsura on the back cover, the black people would ask why the white person is killing the black one. So it was very difficult to sell that magazine to black people. You worship black Kṛṣṇa. Why did you not say? Black is not neglected. We worship, you see our Deity, black Kṛṣṇa. You are actually the best book distributor. Hm? You are the best book distributor. You know all the good lines. (pause) The sign on the front of the Press is ordered now. Hm? They have ordered the sign for the front of the Press with your name, and we are going to try our best to have it up by the time you get there. Generally it takes one month for them to carve the letters, but we will try to have it up when you get there. Rāmeśvara said he is very, very sorry that when you originally told him about the sign he had already purchased the other letters, and he did not want to displease you by spending more money, and he is very sorry. He has immediately ordered the letters for you. That was two years ago he said that it should be taken. Actually, devotees at the Press, they are . . . it is wonderful how dedicated they are. Whenever a book is coming out, I give an iṣṭagoṣṭhī , and I tell them that Śrīla Prabhupāda is desiring very much to have this book out, and they will do anything. They will stay up all night . . . One girl wrote some articles. *Hm. In the Back to Godhead . . . it was a one*-page article from that girl who joined. She is working still? Yes. She was . . . I went to Princeton University Press to study some of their methods . . . Yes. Your name is also. Yes. Unfortunately. And she was there. She was the type composer. She is still with us? Oh, yes. Now she is transcribing Jayadvaita's and Hayagriva's tapes, the editorial tapes. She will work all day and all night also, whenever is necessary. She is married or no? No. Very few devotees get married now. It is very, very rare. If one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, this marriage problem does not disturb. We're too busy to get married. (laughs) No time. Brahmacārī . . . man can remain without sex. It is not very difficult for him to. But women? Man can be trained up. He can remain throughout the whole life without sex. But it is a little difficult, unless they are given special protection. Special protection means strictly not to intermingle with any boy. Then they do. That is not possible in the Western . . . otherwise she can remain brahmacāriṇī under the protection of elder brother, or father and mother—not to allow—strict—mix freely to the boys. In this country if they are left under the protection of their father and mother, then their father and mother will order them to have sex life. They make the girl prostitute to bring money. I have got experience. They do not like their young girls to marry. Better find out boys, and bring money. And once woman is trained up to prostitution, she will never become faithful wife. It is impossible. She is spoilt. *In America, if the woman is not like a prostitute, then she is ridiculed. All her friends ridicule her. Most of the degradation actually occurs in schools. When you go to school, the grade school, the elementary school and the high school and then college, this is where you learn all of this sex life, all of the intoxication. This is where you learn it. You learn it from the other children. Actually, that's the source of all the degradation. The meat*-eating is taught by the parents, but everything else is school . . . Not only the parents. At the school they distribute contraceptive ingredients, tablets. In India it is also a problem. In movie screens also, cinemas. Hm? Cinemas. They see all the things going on on the cinema screen. And the filthy literatures also. Literature? Filthy literatures, everywhere. Magazines. Every newsagent sells pornographic literature. Every newsagent. In a large city it is not possible to walk down a main street without seeing magazines with naked women—everywhere. That's all they have. *Even the advertisements for so*-called respectable goods now, they also feature naked women and so many things. It's just not possible, in the West, to avoid it. Not only that, on public streets they are embracing, kissing. In India you don't even see that at all. It's very nice. Even now. In fact in places like Māyāpura and Vṛndāvana, you won't even see a husband and wife walking together. That's very unusual. There's not so much emphasis on sex life there. Western society is all sex life. Unnatural life. Western society is unnatural. They're even making surveys that they think that people would work harder if instead of having a lunch break they would have a sex break. So the husband and wife, during lunch hour, they could have sex life and go back to work again. Acchā ? This is public news. I read it in the Time magazine. Even in the prisons, they allow the wives of the prisoners to come so that . . . and stay for the weekend at the jails. They were doing that program in England, because the men were complaining, they were becoming agitated, no sex life. They are prisoners, criminals, so they were allowing their wives to come. What if he has no wife? They become homosex also. Prison is very bad. Big problems. One devotee went to prison, and they had to give him a special place just so he would not be attacked by other men for sex life. This was three years ago. Homosex? Yes. He did not want it, so he did not want to be homosexual, so they had to put him in a place where there were no other men, because practically all of them were like that. They became so insane after sex life. He escaped from prison, though. He jumped over the wall, and for three days went through the mountains with no food, and he escaped, then he went to India. He escaped, how? He jumped over the wall of the prison. Acchā . Kṛṣṇa empowered him. I sent books to the prison chaplain, Kṛṣṇa Books , so the prison chaplain would give them to him, but they came back in the mail. It said: "Cannot deliver. The prisoner has escaped." He did some service? The chaplain? No. He distributed some book? No, this boy. Who was he? He was a devotee? Vidura. His name was Vidura. I have not heard of him many years. Maybe he left. But he was a . . . Vidura, I think he is in Vṛndāvana. Brahmacārī . He is thin boy, blond hair? I have not seen him in years. He wasn't there when I was there. Hm? He wasn't there when I was there. I heard the name. So he has gone to India? When he first escaped from prison he went to India. This was around two or three years ago. Oh. Then no one heard of him after that. He did not send any letters, to avoid being caught. He jumped over the wall? Yes. He jumped over the wall, then he went through the mountains of Pennsylvania to escape. He had his striped prison suit on. They give 58:53 them a striped suit in the prison. And all the neighboring towns, they tell the people if they see anyone like that, then they will give a big reward. So he was very frightened. He was walking through towns with his striped suit, and people were seeing him. Sanatāna Goswāmī did. Yes. He also didn't want to go on the main road. He walked through the jungles. He could not jump over. He paid for that. (laughter) What money he had, he paid. But he did all this for Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Jaya . In those days it was unique. Unique? How he arranged for getting free from prison. It wasn't a very common thing to bribe the jailer? Heh? It was not a very common thing to bribe the jailer? He had money, he bribed. But who has money? It was from his brother? It was Rūpa Gosvāmī's money? Yes. Rūpa Gosvāmī left one fourth for family expenditures. *Fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa, twenty*-five percent for family, and twenty-five percent for personal emergency. I remember when I joined the temple, I gave all my money to the temple, and then my parents found out, one friend told them. So they wrote a letter demanding to know why I hadn't sent them the money. The one fourth. (laughter) No, not the one fourth. But they wanted to know why I had given all the money to the temple. They said, "You could have given it to your brother, or," he'd just got married, "or you could have given it to us, or . . ." Like this, very upset. When was? They are in England. Oh. In England, you gave to our temple? No. I joined in Sydney, so I gave to the temple in Sydney. That's all. (devotees offer obeisances) Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember I . . . we were speaking in India . . . did you want to use the Dictaphone in the afternoon or not? I don't know. (end) Conversation A -- May 18, 1976, Honolulu (Conversation About New Vrindavan) . . . oh, as soon as . . . (indistinct) . . . come back. Why have you . . . (indistinct) . . .? (long pause) May I put a little flowers around the, erm, you know, the little topknot? I don't know what it's called. The bunch of hairs on the Deities? Put flowers there? Yes, put a little flowers there. (long pause) (discussion between Govinda dāsī and devotee) What time is Gaurasundara coming? He said tomorrow afternoon, maybe . . . (indistinct) But are you going to call him? He could bring me that other typewriter. You need to remind him, or he'll forget. *Now already he has admitted. "Yeah, finally my presence in New Vrindavan is more needed now that we are being requested by Your Divine Grace to make an attempt for self*-sufficient." The hint is already given. Yes. So he's doubtful. Hm? He's doubtful that they can do it. I think the next sentence? *"We trust in your higher wisdom that self*-sufficient can be realized somehow or other, and we will try for it." Yes, sometimes you can . . . (indistinct) He doesn't sound like he is very hopeful. Hopeful, then how it can be? Someone else should manage, who has enthusiasm. It's not possible if they . . . (indistinct) . . . they . . . if they think that they can do some business, let them do it. What can be done? If they cannot produce food, then let them do business. Make soap? Make Hare Kṛṣṇa soap? Anything can be done. For doing business, there are so many things. There is something that can be arranged on that farm. Huh? There must be some craft or various . . . But the whole New Vrindavan idea was that milk and production, something from that, that's all. And that is possible. But they don't work. No. That is the . . . That's the trouble. That's the trouble. So you can see it that is why. They think, "Now we have become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, why we shall work?" And most of the men who live there, they only stay a short time, and they go away. Then someone else comes, and go away. So there is no one to maintain it. They come and eat and go. Yes. Vacation. Vacation in the country. We have one married couple here that came from New Vrindavan, but they're not living in the temple—they're living on the big island. But whenever the devotees went to the big island, they wouldn't even feed them, the devotees on the preaching mission. Hm? *There was, there was one family of devotees that came from New Vrindavan. They were sort of semi*-hippy, semi-devotee. And . . . and so they got, and they moved to Hawaii—not to this island but to another island in the country. And we sent one party of devotees there for starting a temple, for doing preaching work. And they were just getting started, so they asked: "Can we stay at your house just temporarily?" And they said: "Oh, all right. You can stay there for a few days." But they wouldn't even feed them. They would go into the other room and eat; they would . . . Hm? They wouldn't even feed the devotees. It was not very nice. And then the children were performing āratik , and they were saying, "Oh, how cute. How sweet," and everything. But when it came to practical . . . practically helping to start our temple there, there was no help at all. It was . . . it wasn't very helpful. (aside) Give me some . . . (indistinct) (end) Conversation A -- May 18, 1976, Honolulu (Conversation About New Vrindavan) . . . oh, as soon as . . . (indistinct) . . . come back. Why have you . . . (indistinct) . . .? (long pause) May I put a little flowers around the, erm, you know, the little topknot? I don't know what it's called. The bunch of hairs on the Deities? Put flowers there? Yes, put a little flowers there. (long pause) (discussion between Govinda dāsī and devotee) What time is Gaurasundara coming? He said tomorrow afternoon, maybe . . . (indistinct) But are you going to call him? He could bring me that other typewriter. You need to remind him, or he'll forget. *Now already he has admitted. "Yeah, finally my presence in New Vrindavan is more needed now that we are being requested by Your Divine Grace to make an attempt for self*-sufficient." The hint is already given. Yes. So he's doubtful. Hm? He's doubtful that they can do it. I think the next sentence? *"We trust in your higher wisdom that self*-sufficient can be realized somehow or other, and we will try for it." Yes, sometimes you can . . . (indistinct) He doesn't sound like he is very hopeful. Hopeful, then how it can be? Someone else should manage, who has enthusiasm. It's not possible if they . . . (indistinct) . . . they . . . if they think that they can do some business, let them do it. What can be done? If they cannot produce food, then let them do business. Make soap? Make Hare Kṛṣṇa soap? Anything can be done. For doing business, there are so many things. There is something that can be arranged on that farm. Huh? There must be some craft or various . . . But the whole New Vrindavan idea was that milk and production, something from that, that's all. And that is possible. But they don't work. No. That is the . . . That's the trouble. That's the trouble. So you can see it that is why. They think, "Now we have become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, why we shall work?" And most of the men who live there, they only stay a short time, and they go away. Then someone else comes, and go away. So there is no one to maintain it. They come and eat and go. Yes. Vacation. Vacation in the country. We have one married couple here that came from New Vrindavan, but they're not living in the temple—they're living on the big island. But whenever the devotees went to the big island, they wouldn't even feed them, the devotees on the preaching mission. Hm? *There was, there was one family of devotees that came from New Vrindavan. They were sort of semi*-hippy, semi-devotee. And . . . and so they got, and they moved to Hawaii—not to this island but to another island in the country. And we sent one party of devotees there for starting a temple, for doing preaching work. And they were just getting started, so they asked: "Can we stay at your house just temporarily?" And they said: "Oh, all right. You can stay there for a few days." But they wouldn't even feed them. They would go into the other room and eat; they would . . . Hm? They wouldn't even feed the devotees. It was not very nice. And then the children were performing āratik , and they were saying, "Oh, how cute. How sweet," and everything. But when it came to practical . . . practically helping to start our temple there, there was no help at all. It was . . . it wasn't very helpful. (aside) Give me some . . . (indistinct) (end) Conversation -- May 19, 1976, Honolulu (audio very indistinct throughout) (indistinct) . . . going to be new form, this human form, you get immediately. Your sacrifice means . . . (indistinct) . . . special place you get immediately. This is the process. So he is not loser. And you have the right to query. (laughing) The fool who would choose . . . say that, consciously . . . (indistinct) . . . really is not very intelligent. *This is the process . . . (indistinct) . . . takes all this risk . . . (indistinct) . . . but the animal*-killing, he is making. Yeah. He is not loser. This man who is killing, then he is taking the risk of being killed by the . . . (indistinct) What if the Christian says that killing plants would also then be prohibited? That is not your business. If you are Christian, your business is first to obey the orders of Christ. That is not your business. You mean if, if . . . well, see, he'll, he'll . . . see, if I say that Jesus says "Don't kill," he doesn't say: "Don't kill humans," he says "Don't kill." And if you're killing the animals for food, then actually you're going against this law because you're killing. But then he'll say . . . Does he think that the killing of animals and killing of the plants, the same? He thinks like that? Uh, no. But he, he might . . . That he might, but that on the basis that he thinks like that . . . Yes. . . . that killing of a big cow and killing of the plant is the same. Does he think like that? Uh, he would think like that. So that is also another nonsense. Why in your state, when you kill a man, you are hanged, and when you are killing an animal you are not? Why? Why? You are Christian. If you say killing of animal and killing of man is the same, then why you are hanged? Huh? Why you discriminate? Why don't you kill your own child? Why discriminate? Yes. So they have to learn discrimination. Yes. Discrimination is the difference between a man and an animal. You can eat. Nature's law: that one life is food for another. And then you . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the nature's law. And you have to obey the order of the Supreme. That is your business. Now, so far we are concerned, we are not killing anyone, either vegetable or animal. We are offering Kṛṣṇa. So if Kṛṣṇa orders that "Give Me patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ ( BG 9.26)," and by His order I kill . . . this, this is not killing. If I take a fruit, if I take some flower, take some plant, this is not killing. You may accept it that it is killing; then it is Kṛṣṇa's order. I am not ordering. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Just like the commander says to kill; *therefore he kills . . . (indistinct) . . . for duty, and he will, and he . . . (indistinct) . . . to the . . . (indistinct) . . . "Come on, take this medal." But that does not mean that you kill at your whims, and want to get a medal. So he will get the medal by killing in the army, one medal: "Now, give this medal." "No medal. Now you will be hanged. Now you will be hanged, that you wanted by your own." So we have to carry out the order. Now you can kill anyone. That is battle. Even Arjuna. Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa . . . he did not want to kill, but Kṛṣṇa said: "Yes, you must kill." "I shall kill my grandfather?" "Yes!" "I shall kill Droṇācārya, my teacher?" "Yes! You must kill!" That was the whole argument, Bhagavad*-gītā . He understood that. He is Vaisnava . . . (indistinct) . . . he did not like. But Kṛṣṇa: "Must kill! Must kill!" So we have to carry out Kṛṣṇa's order. Even if you think that these vegetables are being killed, it is not killing. If I take the fruit from the . . . (indistinct) . . . but for argument's sake, if you say it is being killed, but that is not our responsibility; *it is Kṛṣṇa's responsibility. And so far Kṛṣṇa is concerned, in the Vedas , akarma . . . (indistinct) . . . He is never contaminated by any sinful reaction. Even superficially he is not. Literally killing his own countrymen . . . (indistinct) . . . does it mean that he is committing sin? To kill one's kinsmen, relative, father, like that, there is sin. And he is killing another, and another, father, son. So you have to abide by the order. That is your duty. Kṛṣṇa says that to kill a cow and to kill a human being is the same sin . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa could have killed so many cows—they are tending cows, daily in . . . (indistinct) . . . He said go*-rakṣya. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ (BG 18.44). And He actually protected . . . (indistinct) . . . so you have to follow Kṛṣṇa's order, stay in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We shall give protection to the cows, and we shall prepare foodstuff for Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . and we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam . In that consciousness . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness society. We do not do anything which is not ordered. Always do everything by His permission. This is our . . . Kṛṣṇa ordered that bring the cow's . . . (indistinct) . . . we are taking . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is your religion? Your religion, that "Thou shall not kill." As we follow Kṛṣṇa's order, you should follow Christ. Then you are Christian. There's . . . Hmm? There's no possibility of people's understanding Jesus. Simply a matter . . . because there's no, there is . . . They have no knowledge. Yes. (indistinct) . . . we have no difficulty. All rascals. Like these horses, wild; and intoxication and illicit sex . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot understand. Therefore the only process is that let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam . Then gradually they will be cured. Then . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all business, when they sing and dance, when he sings this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and diet, encourage them, and they will . . . (indistinct) . . . just like fire was spreading, . . . (indistinct) . . . they understand what is to be done. Did Yogi Bhajan write you back? Did he respond to your letter to them? Not yet? . . . (indistinct) Can I be excused? I've . . . I have a . . . I caught an influenza . . . Oh. . . . so I have a slight fever. I will try to break it. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- May 19, 1976, Honolulu (audio very indistinct throughout) (indistinct) . . . going to be new form, this human form, you get immediately. Your sacrifice means . . . (indistinct) . . . special place you get immediately. This is the process. So he is not loser. And you have the right to query. (laughing) The fool who would choose . . . say that, consciously . . . (indistinct) . . . really is not very intelligent. *This is the process . . . (indistinct) . . . takes all this risk . . . (indistinct) . . . but the animal*-killing, he is making. Yeah. He is not loser. This man who is killing, then he is taking the risk of being killed by the . . . (indistinct) What if the Christian says that killing plants would also then be prohibited? That is not your business. If you are Christian, your business is first to obey the orders of Christ. That is not your business. You mean if, if . . . well, see, he'll, he'll . . . see, if I say that Jesus says "Don't kill," he doesn't say: "Don't kill humans," he says "Don't kill." And if you're killing the animals for food, then actually you're going against this law because you're killing. But then he'll say . . . Does he think that the killing of animals and killing of the plants, the same? He thinks like that? Uh, no. But he, he might . . . That he might, but that on the basis that he thinks like that . . . Yes. . . . that killing of a big cow and killing of the plant is the same. Does he think like that? Uh, he would think like that. So that is also another nonsense. Why in your state, when you kill a man, you are hanged, and when you are killing an animal you are not? Why? Why? You are Christian. If you say killing of animal and killing of man is the same, then why you are hanged? Huh? Why you discriminate? Why don't you kill your own child? Why discriminate? Yes. So they have to learn discrimination. Yes. Discrimination is the difference between a man and an animal. You can eat. Nature's law: that one life is food for another. And then you . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the nature's law. And you have to obey the order of the Supreme. That is your business. Now, so far we are concerned, we are not killing anyone, either vegetable or animal. We are offering Kṛṣṇa. So if Kṛṣṇa orders that "Give Me patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ ( BG 9.26)," and by His order I kill . . . this, this is not killing. If I take a fruit, if I take some flower, take some plant, this is not killing. You may accept it that it is killing; then it is Kṛṣṇa's order. I am not ordering. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Just like the commander says to kill; *therefore he kills . . . (indistinct) . . . for duty, and he will, and he . . . (indistinct) . . . to the . . . (indistinct) . . . "Come on, take this medal." But that does not mean that you kill at your whims, and want to get a medal. So he will get the medal by killing in the army, one medal: "Now, give this medal." "No medal. Now you will be hanged. Now you will be hanged, that you wanted by your own." So we have to carry out the order. Now you can kill anyone. That is battle. Even Arjuna. Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa . . . he did not want to kill, but Kṛṣṇa said: "Yes, you must kill." "I shall kill my grandfather?" "Yes!" "I shall kill Droṇācārya, my teacher?" "Yes! You must kill!" That was the whole argument, Bhagavad*-gītā . He understood that. He is Vaisnava . . . (indistinct) . . . he did not like. But Kṛṣṇa: "Must kill! Must kill!" So we have to carry out Kṛṣṇa's order. Even if you think that these vegetables are being killed, it is not killing. If I take the fruit from the . . . (indistinct) . . . but for argument's sake, if you say it is being killed, but that is not our responsibility; *it is Kṛṣṇa's responsibility. And so far Kṛṣṇa is concerned, in the Vedas , akarma . . . (indistinct) . . . He is never contaminated by any sinful reaction. Even superficially he is not. Literally killing his own countrymen . . . (indistinct) . . . does it mean that he is committing sin? To kill one's kinsmen, relative, father, like that, there is sin. And he is killing another, and another, father, son. So you have to abide by the order. That is your duty. Kṛṣṇa says that to kill a cow and to kill a human being is the same sin . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa could have killed so many cows—they are tending cows, daily in . . . (indistinct) . . . He said go*-rakṣya. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ (BG 18.44). And He actually protected . . . (indistinct) . . . so you have to follow Kṛṣṇa's order, stay in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We shall give protection to the cows, and we shall prepare foodstuff for Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . and we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam . In that consciousness . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness society. We do not do anything which is not ordered. Always do everything by His permission. This is our . . . Kṛṣṇa ordered that bring the cow's . . . (indistinct) . . . we are taking . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is your religion? Your religion, that "Thou shall not kill." As we follow Kṛṣṇa's order, you should follow Christ. Then you are Christian. There's . . . Hmm? There's no possibility of people's understanding Jesus. Simply a matter . . . because there's no, there is . . . They have no knowledge. Yes. (indistinct) . . . we have no difficulty. All rascals. Like these horses, wild; and intoxication and illicit sex . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot understand. Therefore the only process is that let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam . Then gradually they will be cured. Then . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all business, when they sing and dance, when he sings this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and diet, encourage them, and they will . . . (indistinct) . . . just like fire was spreading, . . . (indistinct) . . . they understand what is to be done. Did Yogi Bhajan write you back? Did he respond to your letter to them? Not yet? . . . (indistinct) Can I be excused? I've . . . I have a . . . I caught an influenza . . . Oh. . . . so I have a slight fever. I will try to break it. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- May 20, 1976, Honolulu (audio quality very poor throughout) *. . . at any moment . . . (indistinct) . . . and what is the program to get out of it? . . . (indistinct) . . . why you are proud of your so*-called rascaldom? . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your insurance to save yourself from the . . . (indistinct) . . .? My insurance? Yes. Only insurance is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati ( BG 9.31) . . . (indistinct) . . . that is your only insurance. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . simply by chanting . . . (indistinct) . . . insurance to save you. "He quickly becomes righteous and attains lasting peace. O son of Kuntī, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes." . . . (indistinct) *Purport. "This should not be misunderstood. In the Seventh Chapter the Lord says that one who is engaged in mischievous activities cannot become a devotee of the Lord. One who is not a devotee of the Lord has no good qualifications whatsoever. The question remains, then, How can a person engaged in abominable activities—either by accident or intention—be a pure devotee? This question may be justly raised. The miscreants, are stated in the Seventh Chapter, who never come to the devotional service of the Lord, have no good qualifications, as it is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Generally, a devotee who is engaged in the nine kinds of devotional activities is engaged in the process of cleansing all material contamination from the heart. He puts the Supreme Personality of Godhead within his heart, and all sinful contaminations are naturally washed away. Continuous thinking of the Supreme Lord makes him pure by nature. According to the Vedas , there is a certain regulation that if one falls down from his exalted position he has to undergo certain ritualistic processes to purify himself. But there is no such condition, because the purifying process is already there in the heart of the devotee, due to his remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly. Therefore, the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare should be continued without stoppage. This will protect a devotee from all accidental falldowns. He will thus remain perpetually free from all material contaminations." It is the only process to save yourself. You . . . you told a story once about, there was one . . . the devotee of Lord Caitanya, where he had never met Lord Caitanya, but he had some water sprinkled on him from a Muslim, Muhammadan, and that . . . that astrologer told him to pour . . . to drink lead, hot lead. And he said . . . I was . . . Buddhimanta Khān. Yeah, Buddhimanta Khān. (pause) You've also said in the past that there is no reality of this material world save for . . . save Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , save . . . *Yes, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, nāma vinā kichu nāhika āra, cauddha*-bhuvana-majhe . (pause) Kṛṣṇa is our only insurance, and you are the . . . you are the insurance representative. *People are so intelligent that when the representative of Kṛṣṇa speaks, they become enemies, and sometimes they crucify, kill. So people are so kind that they are not killing. Otherwise, why Christ, . . . (indistinct) . . . was killed? What fault? What is his fault? Just see. Was there any fault in his words? He advised, "Don't kill," and he was crucified. We have to deal with such rascals. I may be representative, but he is directly son of God. People are so rascal that they did not believe even the son of God, what to speak of His representative. What is that? Why Jesus Christ was killed? What was his fault? People are so . . . (indistinct) . . . what the Christians will ask? Therefore we are . . . (indistinct) . . . and not only that, they have been given this idea that, "For our sinful reaction Christ has taken contract, so let him suffer being killed." Cow*-killing is very, very sin. "That's all right; don't mind. Christ will suffer." How easy understanding they have. They . . . Huh? They call it love. This is love? If you say: "Prabhupāda, I love you. Now I want to kill you. Now I will kill you." Please don't love me! (laughter) Please get out. "I love you so much that I will kill you." They like to keep the . . . Christ, the deity of Christ, they keep him nailed on the cross. They think that's very . . . Therefore you see all the pictures in the church, he is carrying the cross, and he is pushing, pushed by the government men. How miserable condition they show. They don't have any . . . They do not have picture, just like we show Kṛṣṇa is enjoying. Such rotten things. That is going on in religion. They love . . . they love means they want to see their lovable suffering so much, you see. Only then . . . (indistinct) . . . this, we want to see our lovable object that He is enjoying. Young boy . . . (indistinct) . . . gopīs, and nice night, playing flute, He's enjoying. That we want to see. And they want to see that lovable, he is suffering. How they can see it, if there is love? If they loved him they would not be able to stand to look at that. That is going on in the name of religion. Therefore so many rogues, rascals. Rascals. We say clearly . . . (indistinct) . . . simply rogues. That is the symptom there. If they loved him, they would not be able to see that and glorify that. *That there was something . . . (indistinct) . . . one picture . . . (indistinct) . . . there was a competition that painter has to paint a picture that there is . . . (indistinct) . . . of the mother with child, so what would be the facial expression. So the painter has to express the feelings . . . (indistinct) . . . that one painter, he painted a picture of the mother, intimate picture . . . (indistinct) . . . he got it. So that is real idea. You may paint . . . (indistinct) . . . expression, that is artificial. The real thing, the mother cannot see it. That mother, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . it is correct. So how the mother can see it? There is . . . (indistinct) . . . being killed. So it is not very easy to . . . (indistinct) . . . cover the mouth, there is no question of him painting so many rascal expressions. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . all going on in the name of religion. All rascals. All rascal. Simply. They do not know what is God, they do not know . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the meaning of love. Simply rubber*-stamp, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." They are interested only in sense gratification. There cannot be any religion. So this cheating type of religion is rejected. Dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavaḥ (SB 1.1.2). All cheating type of religion is kicked out. This is no religion at all. All bogus. Is that religion, disobeying the instruction of Christ, "Thou shall not kill"? "Therefore I shall kill him." Is that religion? And they are showing how he was killed. One . . . one man once said that to carry . . . to glorify the cross is like they . . . glorifying the revolver. Yes. If the husband is shot, then you take the gun and you worship the gun. That is . . . yes. Very good example. Are you, are you going to some church . . . (indistinct) . . .? . . . (indistinct) So, the same picture, that Jesus Christ is carrying his cross, and falling, falling. And you go enjoy. (long pause) *In Māyāpur you have seen Yoga*-pīṭha, Caitanya Mahāprabhu birthplace? Yoga-pīṭha? Yes. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . Oh. . . . and two sides, his two wives. Not that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is worshiped as a sannyāsī . Gṛhastha . Gṛhastha. Gṛhastha with two wives, he must enjoy. This is our process. Why you will see Him as a sannyāsī ? Therefore Nityānanda Prabhu broke his daṇḍa . They want . . . do not want to see Him as sannyāsī , . . . (indistinct) . . . renounce. Why He should be renounced? He is gṛhastha . "Oh, well." God must enjoy . . . (break) I'm sorry it took so long, but I had a little trouble getting through to them. Huh? First their . . . first the telephone service were not free, and then their line was busy for some time. So I just got through to them a few minutes ago, and he says it wasn't printed by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Then? He said they did it independently, unauthorized from Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, and he already chastised them for using the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust label, 'cause it has nothing to do with the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Who is he? Uhhh, I'm not sure. Who sent it? Bahulāśva? That devotee named Bahulāśva? Bahulāśva and Bhakti dāsa. And who else? Jayānanda. But Jayānanda . . . I saw this printed in L.A. before I came here. Oh. So I don't think it's a San Francisco endeavor. The separations were all . . . No, he said it was done there. Oh, in San Francisco? Yeah, they printed it while the festival was going on in India, and he didn't know anything about it until he came back and saw that it was all printed. He said they were going to use it for some . . . something to do with lectures. Hmm? They were going to use it to introduce lectures and so forth. So it was not published, so why did he publish unauthorized? Oh, I don't know. He said that he was a little upset about it himself. So this should not take place again. They should be informed that without being passed by the authority, nobody should publish any literature. This is already . . . (indistinct) Without, without being passed by the authorities . . .? Should not be published. Does that mean the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust trustees? Yes. So those who are managing, but why they are . . . (indistinct) . . .? Where does he live? I . . . we're still not sure who published it. Uh, Bahulāśva or Dharmādhyakṣa? Has anybody . . . did you mention that? Rameśvara told me that they are the ones who did it, from the San Francisco center. Bahulāśva he mentioned, and a Dharmādhyakṣa. Hmm. Hmm. He's in LA. He mentioned those two. He didn't mention the others. He said they were . . . Bahulāśva published, published? He said Bahulāśva and Dharmādhyakṣa. Oh. Dharmādhyakṣa. I don't know who he is. It's the colleges. Oh. They're, I think, in charge of the college program. The idea is good, but . . . (indistinct) . . . impersonal. Hmm. Impersonal is not good. So if someone was to receive this, they wouldn't necessarily connect it with you at all. They could think it was anything, 'cause there's no mention of your name. Who published it? Uhh, I don't know who printed it. That you did not ask? Rameśvara didn't know anything about who printed it or how many copies were printed or anything. He said all he knew was that it was put together by Bahulāśva and Dharmādhyakṣa. So ask them. I have to contact them and find out how it was actually . . . should I write them a letter? He just sent one letter. You, you write. This letter? (pause) So he, he is informed you are going? Rameśvara? Oh, yeah. They're waiting. So . . . (indistinct) Well, they sent the tickets today, but we have not made the reservation yet. We were waiting for them to . . . (break) . . . that place was selected . . . Hmm. . . . for . . . (indistinct) Do you want to establish one center there? . . . (indistinct) Yeah, I would like to help. Huh? I would like to help. Yes. (break) . . . (indistinct)? Oh, yes. Especially when there is . . . . . . (indistinct) *This Ratha*-yātrā is in memory of Kṛṣṇa's coming there with His brother and sister during one eclipse, to take bath, coming from Dvārakā. And the gopīs also assembled there? *The gopīs got the information that Kṛṣṇa is coming from Dvārakā, so from Vṛndāvana they went to see Him. And when Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī met, the Rādhārāṇī lamented that Kṛṣṇa—He was the same Kṛṣṇa and the same Rādhārāṇī—so "This is not a good meeting place. So if You come to Vṛndāvana, then I shall be happy." So it is inviting Kṛṣṇa to Vṛndāvana. That is the feeling of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Ratha*-yātrā. He is inviting Kṛṣṇa to Vṛndāvana. So in Jagannātha Purī still the same feelings are there. Kṛṣṇa, Jagannātha, from the temple goes to Guṇḍicā. So Lakṣmī is angry that, "Kṛṣṇa is leaving me. He has gone to Vṛndāvana." So she was . . . she is punishing. That is called Herā-pañcamī, punishing the servants of Kṛṣṇa. The maidservants of Lakṣmī chastising them, threatened them, "Why without permission?" (laughs) So they, out of very fearful condition, offering their respect to Lakṣmī, "Mother, you don't be sorry. I am here . . . (indistinct) . . ." So this, this is the play performed, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu associates they saw, and they enjoyed very much when the maidservant of Lakṣmī was slapping the servant of Viṣṇu. That is mentioned Caitanya-caritāmṛta . All the servants arrested, brought before Lakṣmī, and they are punished. (laughs) But they came to invite Kṛṣṇa, Rādhārāṇī and other gopīs. And actually they do not go at that time. But this Ratha-yātrā ceremony means Kṛṣṇa is coming from Dvārakā to Kurukṣetra. This is the history of Ratha-yātrā. Do they have any temples of Lord Jagannātha there? They have any temples of Lord Jagannātha in Kurukṣetra? No. Jagannātha, that is another history. King Indradyumna, he wanted to establish a temple of that incidence, and that the deities while being carved would remain unfinished. So he was very impatient to establish, so he established the unfinished Deity. That is Jagannātha. The nondevotees cannot understand . . . They are being carved, Kṛṣṇa's wood form, but he was so impatient, he said, "Whatever is done now, establish." It is said that Viśvakarmā was enquiring. So the term was, Viśvakarmā said that "Unless I finish, don't open the door." So this king, he went impatiently, and calling out whether he is finished. Then he forced . . . forcibly opened the door, and it was unfinished. So he said, "Never mind, . . . (indistinct) . . ." Unfinished Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . so Kṛṣṇa, finished or unfinished, is Kṛṣṇa. That is omnipotency. That is Jagannātha form . . . (indistinct) . . . doesn't matter finished or unfinished. (end) Conversation A -- May 20, 1976, Honolulu (audio quality very poor throughout) *. . . at any moment . . . (indistinct) . . . and what is the program to get out of it? . . . (indistinct) . . . why you are proud of your so*-called rascaldom? . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your insurance to save yourself from the . . . (indistinct) . . .? My insurance? Yes. Only insurance is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati ( BG 9.31) . . . (indistinct) . . . that is your only insurance. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . simply by chanting . . . (indistinct) . . . insurance to save you. "He quickly becomes righteous and attains lasting peace. O son of Kuntī, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes." . . . (indistinct) *Purport. "This should not be misunderstood. In the Seventh Chapter the Lord says that one who is engaged in mischievous activities cannot become a devotee of the Lord. One who is not a devotee of the Lord has no good qualifications whatsoever. The question remains, then, How can a person engaged in abominable activities—either by accident or intention—be a pure devotee? This question may be justly raised. The miscreants, are stated in the Seventh Chapter, who never come to the devotional service of the Lord, have no good qualifications, as it is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Generally, a devotee who is engaged in the nine kinds of devotional activities is engaged in the process of cleansing all material contamination from the heart. He puts the Supreme Personality of Godhead within his heart, and all sinful contaminations are naturally washed away. Continuous thinking of the Supreme Lord makes him pure by nature. According to the Vedas , there is a certain regulation that if one falls down from his exalted position he has to undergo certain ritualistic processes to purify himself. But there is no such condition, because the purifying process is already there in the heart of the devotee, due to his remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly. Therefore, the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare should be continued without stoppage. This will protect a devotee from all accidental falldowns. He will thus remain perpetually free from all material contaminations." It is the only process to save yourself. You . . . you told a story once about, there was one . . . the devotee of Lord Caitanya, where he had never met Lord Caitanya, but he had some water sprinkled on him from a Muslim, Muhammadan, and that . . . that astrologer told him to pour . . . to drink lead, hot lead. And he said . . . I was . . . Buddhimanta Khān. Yeah, Buddhimanta Khān. (pause) You've also said in the past that there is no reality of this material world save for . . . save Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , save . . . *Yes, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, nāma vinā kichu nāhika āra, cauddha*-bhuvana-majhe . (pause) Kṛṣṇa is our only insurance, and you are the . . . you are the insurance representative. *People are so intelligent that when the representative of Kṛṣṇa speaks, they become enemies, and sometimes they crucify, kill. So people are so kind that they are not killing. Otherwise, why Christ, . . . (indistinct) . . . was killed? What fault? What is his fault? Just see. Was there any fault in his words? He advised, "Don't kill," and he was crucified. We have to deal with such rascals. I may be representative, but he is directly son of God. People are so rascal that they did not believe even the son of God, what to speak of His representative. What is that? Why Jesus Christ was killed? What was his fault? People are so . . . (indistinct) . . . what the Christians will ask? Therefore we are . . . (indistinct) . . . and not only that, they have been given this idea that, "For our sinful reaction Christ has taken contract, so let him suffer being killed." Cow*-killing is very, very sin. "That's all right; don't mind. Christ will suffer." How easy understanding they have. They . . . Huh? They call it love. This is love? If you say: "Prabhupāda, I love you. Now I want to kill you. Now I will kill you." Please don't love me! (laughter) Please get out. "I love you so much that I will kill you." They like to keep the . . . Christ, the deity of Christ, they keep him nailed on the cross. They think that's very . . . Therefore you see all the pictures in the church, he is carrying the cross, and he is pushing, pushed by the government men. How miserable condition they show. They don't have any . . . They do not have picture, just like we show Kṛṣṇa is enjoying. Such rotten things. That is going on in religion. They love . . . they love means they want to see their lovable suffering so much, you see. Only then . . . (indistinct) . . . this, we want to see our lovable object that He is enjoying. Young boy . . . (indistinct) . . . gopīs, and nice night, playing flute, He's enjoying. That we want to see. And they want to see that lovable, he is suffering. How they can see it, if there is love? If they loved him they would not be able to stand to look at that. That is going on in the name of religion. Therefore so many rogues, rascals. Rascals. We say clearly . . . (indistinct) . . . simply rogues. That is the symptom there. If they loved him, they would not be able to see that and glorify that. *That there was something . . . (indistinct) . . . one picture . . . (indistinct) . . . there was a competition that painter has to paint a picture that there is . . . (indistinct) . . . of the mother with child, so what would be the facial expression. So the painter has to express the feelings . . . (indistinct) . . . that one painter, he painted a picture of the mother, intimate picture . . . (indistinct) . . . he got it. So that is real idea. You may paint . . . (indistinct) . . . expression, that is artificial. The real thing, the mother cannot see it. That mother, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . it is correct. So how the mother can see it? There is . . . (indistinct) . . . being killed. So it is not very easy to . . . (indistinct) . . . cover the mouth, there is no question of him painting so many rascal expressions. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . all going on in the name of religion. All rascals. All rascal. Simply. They do not know what is God, they do not know . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the meaning of love. Simply rubber*-stamp, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." They are interested only in sense gratification. There cannot be any religion. So this cheating type of religion is rejected. Dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavaḥ (SB 1.1.2). All cheating type of religion is kicked out. This is no religion at all. All bogus. Is that religion, disobeying the instruction of Christ, "Thou shall not kill"? "Therefore I shall kill him." Is that religion? And they are showing how he was killed. One . . . one man once said that to carry . . . to glorify the cross is like they . . . glorifying the revolver. Yes. If the husband is shot, then you take the gun and you worship the gun. That is . . . yes. Very good example. Are you, are you going to some church . . . (indistinct) . . .? . . . (indistinct) So, the same picture, that Jesus Christ is carrying his cross, and falling, falling. And you go enjoy. (long pause) *In Māyāpur you have seen Yoga*-pīṭha, Caitanya Mahāprabhu birthplace? Yoga-pīṭha? Yes. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . Oh. . . . and two sides, his two wives. Not that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is worshiped as a sannyāsī . Gṛhastha . Gṛhastha. Gṛhastha with two wives, he must enjoy. This is our process. Why you will see Him as a sannyāsī ? Therefore Nityānanda Prabhu broke his daṇḍa . They want . . . do not want to see Him as sannyāsī , . . . (indistinct) . . . renounce. Why He should be renounced? He is gṛhastha . "Oh, well." God must enjoy . . . (break) I'm sorry it took so long, but I had a little trouble getting through to them. Huh? First their . . . first the telephone service were not free, and then their line was busy for some time. So I just got through to them a few minutes ago, and he says it wasn't printed by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Then? He said they did it independently, unauthorized from Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, and he already chastised them for using the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust label, 'cause it has nothing to do with the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Who is he? Uhhh, I'm not sure. Who sent it? Bahulāśva? That devotee named Bahulāśva? Bahulāśva and Bhakti dāsa. And who else? Jayānanda. But Jayānanda . . . I saw this printed in L.A. before I came here. Oh. So I don't think it's a San Francisco endeavor. The separations were all . . . No, he said it was done there. Oh, in San Francisco? Yeah, they printed it while the festival was going on in India, and he didn't know anything about it until he came back and saw that it was all printed. He said they were going to use it for some . . . something to do with lectures. Hmm? They were going to use it to introduce lectures and so forth. So it was not published, so why did he publish unauthorized? Oh, I don't know. He said that he was a little upset about it himself. So this should not take place again. They should be informed that without being passed by the authority, nobody should publish any literature. This is already . . . (indistinct) Without, without being passed by the authorities . . .? Should not be published. Does that mean the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust trustees? Yes. So those who are managing, but why they are . . . (indistinct) . . .? Where does he live? I . . . we're still not sure who published it. Uh, Bahulāśva or Dharmādhyakṣa? Has anybody . . . did you mention that? Rameśvara told me that they are the ones who did it, from the San Francisco center. Bahulāśva he mentioned, and a Dharmādhyakṣa. Hmm. Hmm. He's in LA. He mentioned those two. He didn't mention the others. He said they were . . . Bahulāśva published, published? He said Bahulāśva and Dharmādhyakṣa. Oh. Dharmādhyakṣa. I don't know who he is. It's the colleges. Oh. They're, I think, in charge of the college program. The idea is good, but . . . (indistinct) . . . impersonal. Hmm. Impersonal is not good. So if someone was to receive this, they wouldn't necessarily connect it with you at all. They could think it was anything, 'cause there's no mention of your name. Who published it? Uhh, I don't know who printed it. That you did not ask? Rameśvara didn't know anything about who printed it or how many copies were printed or anything. He said all he knew was that it was put together by Bahulāśva and Dharmādhyakṣa. So ask them. I have to contact them and find out how it was actually . . . should I write them a letter? He just sent one letter. You, you write. This letter? (pause) So he, he is informed you are going? Rameśvara? Oh, yeah. They're waiting. So . . . (indistinct) Well, they sent the tickets today, but we have not made the reservation yet. We were waiting for them to . . . (break) . . . that place was selected . . . Hmm. . . . for . . . (indistinct) Do you want to establish one center there? . . . (indistinct) Yeah, I would like to help. Huh? I would like to help. Yes. (break) . . . (indistinct)? Oh, yes. Especially when there is . . . . . . (indistinct) *This Ratha*-yātrā is in memory of Kṛṣṇa's coming there with His brother and sister during one eclipse, to take bath, coming from Dvārakā. And the gopīs also assembled there? *The gopīs got the information that Kṛṣṇa is coming from Dvārakā, so from Vṛndāvana they went to see Him. And when Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī met, the Rādhārāṇī lamented that Kṛṣṇa—He was the same Kṛṣṇa and the same Rādhārāṇī—so "This is not a good meeting place. So if You come to Vṛndāvana, then I shall be happy." So it is inviting Kṛṣṇa to Vṛndāvana. That is the feeling of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Ratha*-yātrā. He is inviting Kṛṣṇa to Vṛndāvana. So in Jagannātha Purī still the same feelings are there. Kṛṣṇa, Jagannātha, from the temple goes to Guṇḍicā. So Lakṣmī is angry that, "Kṛṣṇa is leaving me. He has gone to Vṛndāvana." So she was . . . she is punishing. That is called Herā-pañcamī, punishing the servants of Kṛṣṇa. The maidservants of Lakṣmī chastising them, threatened them, "Why without permission?" (laughs) So they, out of very fearful condition, offering their respect to Lakṣmī, "Mother, you don't be sorry. I am here . . . (indistinct) . . ." So this, this is the play performed, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu associates they saw, and they enjoyed very much when the maidservant of Lakṣmī was slapping the servant of Viṣṇu. That is mentioned Caitanya-caritāmṛta . All the servants arrested, brought before Lakṣmī, and they are punished. (laughs) But they came to invite Kṛṣṇa, Rādhārāṇī and other gopīs. And actually they do not go at that time. But this Ratha-yātrā ceremony means Kṛṣṇa is coming from Dvārakā to Kurukṣetra. This is the history of Ratha-yātrā. Do they have any temples of Lord Jagannātha there? They have any temples of Lord Jagannātha in Kurukṣetra? No. Jagannātha, that is another history. King Indradyumna, he wanted to establish a temple of that incidence, and that the deities while being carved would remain unfinished. So he was very impatient to establish, so he established the unfinished Deity. That is Jagannātha. The nondevotees cannot understand . . . They are being carved, Kṛṣṇa's wood form, but he was so impatient, he said, "Whatever is done now, establish." It is said that Viśvakarmā was enquiring. So the term was, Viśvakarmā said that "Unless I finish, don't open the door." So this king, he went impatiently, and calling out whether he is finished. Then he forced . . . forcibly opened the door, and it was unfinished. So he said, "Never mind, . . . (indistinct) . . ." Unfinished Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . so Kṛṣṇa, finished or unfinished, is Kṛṣṇa. That is omnipotency. That is Jagannātha form . . . (indistinct) . . . doesn't matter finished or unfinished. (end) Conversation -- May 21, 1976, Honolulu (Conversation About Deity Making and Tulasi Tea) Twelve inches. That's very small, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's only . . . It's about eighteen inches. Oh, you said twelve inches. Twelve . . . twelve is like this. This is a ten by eight. Fifteen. Fifteen. Fifteen. Fifteen inches. But they are . . . they are done nice. Very artistic flavor. Hmm. So, only make a big hall there. On all sides a brass plate . . . (indistinct) . . . you make of this, like this. You make such small dolls, they can be soldered. They are very good . . . (indistinct) Hmm. But, that is good price. Hmm. But silicate preparation is, you think, stronger than stone? Yes, I think so. I have . . . I'm making some I was gonna bring and show you this evening, some heads. They are done already? Some heads. I was gonna show you . . . They are already done? Yes, but they're not fully dry. Two of them are done, but . . . So when they dry. It's not fully dried. It will be dry enough to bring by this evening, I think. It's concrete. It's concrete. You had . . . originally you asked me to make them in concrete. The concrete mixed with silica is stronger than just concrete. The concrete, it was, from what I have been told, it was . . . Inside, whether has to put network? Armature? Ah! Armature. Yes, that may be. That's a metal you have to put inside. Metal. That will . . . For strength. . . . make strong? Strength, yes. Reinforcement. Yes. Very strong. Especially for Kāliya it's going to be necessary. For Kāliya. Yes. Because it's a very large piece. (pause) I require some people to help me to do this, but everyone is . . . it's very difficult to get . . . I require two or three girls to help me. So ask Śukadeva Goswāmī. You want him to come up? No. You can ask him. Oh. I was just discussing it with him when you called me, and he had just told me that no. (laughs) She needs help. This is the problem. And I know when Gurukṛpā Mahārāja gets back, he will stop it as well. He'll stop everything, and there's nothing I can do, except do it independently, on my own. Why? *From, well, from his attitude when he left, he didn't want . . . want anything to do with it at all, any Deity*-making. Why? I don't know. No, that's . . . (indistinct) Yeah. I don't know. May be that, that if you write a letter to him, and, and ask him to give some facility. Otherwise, I don't think he'll do it, 'cause he wouldn't be . . . he's objected to it before . . . (indistinct) First of all, let them have this hall. Hmm. And then do the . . . (indistinct) (indistinct) . . . him, now there is no place for Kṛṣṇa. First of all there must be place. Then we can do everything. *Hmm. What about their Deity*-making that they're doing now, for Fiji? They're doing these deities for Fiji. You have contacted Baradrāj? I'm going there tomorrow. (indistinct) . . . I am going also. Baradrāj, I've talked to him. He, he's very busy doing what he's doing. He's building a museum, and he says he doesn't have time to do . . . Ah. . . . the deities too. So therefore that's why I, I was doing them here. I was getting it all organized here. I was simply going to ask him to help me with the Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta and the deity of yourself. So you have talked to him? Yes. He told me that he wouldn't have time to even start anything for months, to even begin to help with the Deities for months, 'cause he's doing this museum. So you heard from Baradrāj? Yes. So what we were doing is, there's three girls here who we're setting up and working. It's not that difficult, you know. It's not that hard to do. What . . . we were just . . . I was going to talk to Baradrāj about it when I went there, also. (pause) So you talked with Gaurasundara yet? No. Since he left I haven't seen him or talked to him. He left last week for his farm on the big island. He and his new wife, they left, and I don't know what he's thinking. What does he do in his farm? He has a lot of animals. He raises goats and horses. Hmm. And I think they have one cow. They got recently one cow. What do they do with goats? They're the girl's pets. Huh? The goats are the pets. They're like pets. Goats for milk? Umm, yeah, you can get milk, but I don't think they do that very much, because they don't like to take it away from the baby goat. Mostly just for pets. They have horses and goats. Are they killed? Oh, no. No, they're very much . . . not at all. How many of them do they have? At least a dozen. Dozen goats? Yeah, a whole bunch of goats. They have at least six horses, too. Hmm? She said they have about a dozen goats and about six horses. I mean, it may be more than that. I'm not . . . I don't really know now. So why so many horses? Because they like to ride horses for pleasure. It's a very nice pleasure to ride horses. Oh. The girl was a rodeo star. Huh? The girl was a rodeo star. Oh. That's where you ride horses, you know? In . . . in rodeos. *Uh*-huh. You know? Until she had an accident last year. Now she's crippled, and she can't ride. Her leg is . . . she can't ride now any more, but she used to be a . . . And she introduced these horses? Yes. He has several people there, like, who follow him and do for him. They will help with the farm work. They have . . . they have gardens. They have nice gardens. No Deities? Not to my knowledge. They've started chanting recently. Recently they've started chanting. Just since he came back from India, he started chanting. Oh. I don't know what his position is. I feel he's changing. I don't know. I think that he feels that you've sanctioned what he's doing, and so he'll probably go on doing it. Huh? He feels that you have sanctioned his activities, and so he will go on doing what he's doing. I have sanctioned? You've sanctioned that he has a farm and he's raising vegetables and living there, and that he's got a new wife and everything. And so he will go on doing what he's doing, because he feels that it's sanctioned. Everyone feels that it's not sanctioned. So probably he'll try to get more . . . he tries to get more people to join and come and live there. That was what he was doing in Honolulu. He's sanctioned? He is doing everything without my sanction. (laughs) Who asked him to ride on horse? Who asked him to what? Ride on horse. He can say like that. You indicated, or you seemed to approve of what he was doing. Even I thought that you'd sanctioned him to do all these things. I mean, you didn't, you know . . . No. You encouraged him. I encouraged him? Yes, you encouraged him to chant and to, erm . . . That I am encouraging everyone. Yes. Well, anyway, they feel that you've sanctioned their activities now, and that they can proceed and have more people come and live there. (long pause) You asked him to come and travel with you? Hmm? You asked Gaurasundara to come and travel with you? That I do. (pause) So time is up when? No, another hour yet. Hmm? It's only 10:15. Oh, yes. You're not sleeping in the mornings now? I do not bother. Just rest a little. How's your health? Hmm? How's your health? Health? Yes. Not well. Do you want to see some doctor? Hmm? (pause) Now it is working; (laughing) we must be prepared. I think you're already prepared, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yes. A broken house, you cannot expect. (pause) What Śukadeva's gone . . . (indistinct)? No. It's a public holiday today. All right. (devotees offer obeisances) Śrīla Prabhupāda, can I ask one question? Hmm. On the tulasī plants. Sometimes they are taking and putting in . . . they boil some water and put the tulasī and make some tea and drink it. Is that . . . I've been told both that it's wrong, and I've been told that it's okay, and I'm wondering whether or not it's . . .? Not wrong. Is it wrong to heat the tulasī , to put, put her in hot water, or is, is that okay? No, it is not wrong, but they are constantly doing that? Oh, I don't know whether they're constantly doing it. There's so much tulasī that they sell it, tulasī tea, at the restaurant, which is . . . Yeah . . . . . . people like it . . . . . . but Prabhupada . . . . . . it's very tasty. Prabhupada said that's all right. Yeah, that's very tasty. There's just, there's tons of tulasī , and there's, there's . . . No. That they cannot drink themselves. For customers, that's all right. All right. It's not good for devotees to drink it? *No. Because it encourages tea*-drinking habit. Becomes a habit to drink tea. Ohh, I see. So the devotees shouldn't . . . shouldn't drink anything like that, unless it's medicinal. Unless they're sick, they have a fever, and tulasī . . . Tulasī drink, drink is very palatable. It's very palatable. I used to put tulasī in your water, remember? We used to put . . . Yes. . . . tulasī flowers in your water, and it flavors the water. Well, when boiled water is poured on it, it's supposedly very medicinal too. And they drink the tea with a little bit maybe of honey or drink it plain. And it's very palatable. Customers like it. I've . . . I used to drink it, but I heard that it was an offense to, to drink it, so I didn't know. I just thought it was really good. No. That as soon as we like it, that means sense gratification. Once you drink it for the taste . . . But we like prasādam . (laughing) I didn't know, so I . . . I didn't know if it was wrong. No. I thought to heat the tulasīs , what I'd heard . . . Tulasī, tulasī leaf you can take, but . . . Heat. Eat, but not the . . . *. . . but this tea habit, that means we may revive our tea*-drinking. That is. Oh, I see. *Otherwise, tulasī leaf eating is good. You can eat leaf, especially palatable with water. Water, that is good. But you make it, imitation tea, that means I remember tea*-drinking. I see. Especially the English. That will be very difficult for the Englishmen. (long pause) So you come at half past twelve. Hmm. (end) Conversation -- May 21, 1976, Honolulu (Conversation About Deity Making and Tulasi Tea) Twelve inches. That's very small, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's only . . . It's about eighteen inches. Oh, you said twelve inches. Twelve . . . twelve is like this. This is a ten by eight. Fifteen. Fifteen. Fifteen. Fifteen inches. But they are . . . they are done nice. Very artistic flavor. Hmm. So, only make a big hall there. On all sides a brass plate . . . (indistinct) . . . you make of this, like this. You make such small dolls, they can be soldered. They are very good . . . (indistinct) Hmm. But, that is good price. Hmm. But silicate preparation is, you think, stronger than stone? Yes, I think so. I have . . . I'm making some I was gonna bring and show you this evening, some heads. They are done already? Some heads. I was gonna show you . . . They are already done? Yes, but they're not fully dry. Two of them are done, but . . . So when they dry. It's not fully dried. It will be dry enough to bring by this evening, I think. It's concrete. It's concrete. You had . . . originally you asked me to make them in concrete. The concrete mixed with silica is stronger than just concrete. The concrete, it was, from what I have been told, it was . . . Inside, whether has to put network? Armature? Ah! Armature. Yes, that may be. That's a metal you have to put inside. Metal. That will . . . For strength. . . . make strong? Strength, yes. Reinforcement. Yes. Very strong. Especially for Kāliya it's going to be necessary. For Kāliya. Yes. Because it's a very large piece. (pause) I require some people to help me to do this, but everyone is . . . it's very difficult to get . . . I require two or three girls to help me. So ask Śukadeva Goswāmī. You want him to come up? No. You can ask him. Oh. I was just discussing it with him when you called me, and he had just told me that no. (laughs) She needs help. This is the problem. And I know when Gurukṛpā Mahārāja gets back, he will stop it as well. He'll stop everything, and there's nothing I can do, except do it independently, on my own. Why? *From, well, from his attitude when he left, he didn't want . . . want anything to do with it at all, any Deity*-making. Why? I don't know. No, that's . . . (indistinct) Yeah. I don't know. May be that, that if you write a letter to him, and, and ask him to give some facility. Otherwise, I don't think he'll do it, 'cause he wouldn't be . . . he's objected to it before . . . (indistinct) First of all, let them have this hall. Hmm. And then do the . . . (indistinct) (indistinct) . . . him, now there is no place for Kṛṣṇa. First of all there must be place. Then we can do everything. *Hmm. What about their Deity*-making that they're doing now, for Fiji? They're doing these deities for Fiji. You have contacted Baradrāj? I'm going there tomorrow. (indistinct) . . . I am going also. Baradrāj, I've talked to him. He, he's very busy doing what he's doing. He's building a museum, and he says he doesn't have time to do . . . Ah. . . . the deities too. So therefore that's why I, I was doing them here. I was getting it all organized here. I was simply going to ask him to help me with the Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta and the deity of yourself. So you have talked to him? Yes. He told me that he wouldn't have time to even start anything for months, to even begin to help with the Deities for months, 'cause he's doing this museum. So you heard from Baradrāj? Yes. So what we were doing is, there's three girls here who we're setting up and working. It's not that difficult, you know. It's not that hard to do. What . . . we were just . . . I was going to talk to Baradrāj about it when I went there, also. (pause) So you talked with Gaurasundara yet? No. Since he left I haven't seen him or talked to him. He left last week for his farm on the big island. He and his new wife, they left, and I don't know what he's thinking. What does he do in his farm? He has a lot of animals. He raises goats and horses. Hmm. And I think they have one cow. They got recently one cow. What do they do with goats? They're the girl's pets. Huh? The goats are the pets. They're like pets. Goats for milk? Umm, yeah, you can get milk, but I don't think they do that very much, because they don't like to take it away from the baby goat. Mostly just for pets. They have horses and goats. Are they killed? Oh, no. No, they're very much . . . not at all. How many of them do they have? At least a dozen. Dozen goats? Yeah, a whole bunch of goats. They have at least six horses, too. Hmm? She said they have about a dozen goats and about six horses. I mean, it may be more than that. I'm not . . . I don't really know now. So why so many horses? Because they like to ride horses for pleasure. It's a very nice pleasure to ride horses. Oh. The girl was a rodeo star. Huh? The girl was a rodeo star. Oh. That's where you ride horses, you know? In . . . in rodeos. *Uh*-huh. You know? Until she had an accident last year. Now she's crippled, and she can't ride. Her leg is . . . she can't ride now any more, but she used to be a . . . And she introduced these horses? Yes. He has several people there, like, who follow him and do for him. They will help with the farm work. They have . . . they have gardens. They have nice gardens. No Deities? Not to my knowledge. They've started chanting recently. Recently they've started chanting. Just since he came back from India, he started chanting. Oh. I don't know what his position is. I feel he's changing. I don't know. I think that he feels that you've sanctioned what he's doing, and so he'll probably go on doing it. Huh? He feels that you have sanctioned his activities, and so he will go on doing what he's doing. I have sanctioned? You've sanctioned that he has a farm and he's raising vegetables and living there, and that he's got a new wife and everything. And so he will go on doing what he's doing, because he feels that it's sanctioned. Everyone feels that it's not sanctioned. So probably he'll try to get more . . . he tries to get more people to join and come and live there. That was what he was doing in Honolulu. He's sanctioned? He is doing everything without my sanction. (laughs) Who asked him to ride on horse? Who asked him to what? Ride on horse. He can say like that. You indicated, or you seemed to approve of what he was doing. Even I thought that you'd sanctioned him to do all these things. I mean, you didn't, you know . . . No. You encouraged him. I encouraged him? Yes, you encouraged him to chant and to, erm . . . That I am encouraging everyone. Yes. Well, anyway, they feel that you've sanctioned their activities now, and that they can proceed and have more people come and live there. (long pause) You asked him to come and travel with you? Hmm? You asked Gaurasundara to come and travel with you? That I do. (pause) So time is up when? No, another hour yet. Hmm? It's only 10:15. Oh, yes. You're not sleeping in the mornings now? I do not bother. Just rest a little. How's your health? Hmm? How's your health? Health? Yes. Not well. Do you want to see some doctor? Hmm? (pause) Now it is working; (laughing) we must be prepared. I think you're already prepared, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yes. A broken house, you cannot expect. (pause) What Śukadeva's gone . . . (indistinct)? No. It's a public holiday today. All right. (devotees offer obeisances) Śrīla Prabhupāda, can I ask one question? Hmm. On the tulasī plants. Sometimes they are taking and putting in . . . they boil some water and put the tulasī and make some tea and drink it. Is that . . . I've been told both that it's wrong, and I've been told that it's okay, and I'm wondering whether or not it's . . .? Not wrong. Is it wrong to heat the tulasī , to put, put her in hot water, or is, is that okay? No, it is not wrong, but they are constantly doing that? Oh, I don't know whether they're constantly doing it. There's so much tulasī that they sell it, tulasī tea, at the restaurant, which is . . . Yeah . . . . . . people like it . . . . . . but Prabhupada . . . . . . it's very tasty. Prabhupada said that's all right. Yeah, that's very tasty. There's just, there's tons of tulasī , and there's, there's . . . No. That they cannot drink themselves. For customers, that's all right. All right. It's not good for devotees to drink it? *No. Because it encourages tea*-drinking habit. Becomes a habit to drink tea. Ohh, I see. So the devotees shouldn't . . . shouldn't drink anything like that, unless it's medicinal. Unless they're sick, they have a fever, and tulasī . . . Tulasī drink, drink is very palatable. It's very palatable. I used to put tulasī in your water, remember? We used to put . . . Yes. . . . tulasī flowers in your water, and it flavors the water. Well, when boiled water is poured on it, it's supposedly very medicinal too. And they drink the tea with a little bit maybe of honey or drink it plain. And it's very palatable. Customers like it. I've . . . I used to drink it, but I heard that it was an offense to, to drink it, so I didn't know. I just thought it was really good. No. That as soon as we like it, that means sense gratification. Once you drink it for the taste . . . But we like prasādam . (laughing) I didn't know, so I . . . I didn't know if it was wrong. No. I thought to heat the tulasīs , what I'd heard . . . Tulasī, tulasī leaf you can take, but . . . Heat. Eat, but not the . . . *. . . but this tea habit, that means we may revive our tea*-drinking. That is. Oh, I see. *Otherwise, tulasī leaf eating is good. You can eat leaf, especially palatable with water. Water, that is good. But you make it, imitation tea, that means I remember tea*-drinking. I see. Especially the English. That will be very difficult for the Englishmen. (long pause) So you come at half past twelve. Hmm. (end) Conversation -- May 24, 1976, Honolulu She has come to an impasse in her family life. She doesn't know what to do. So the situation, I think you are familiar with, that Gaurasundara has been living with this other girl for three years, and Govinda dāsī is under the impression that you've sanctioned that Gaurasundara can have two wives. He . . . she can imagine anything. What can I do? Well, he told me that you sanctioned it. I said that . . . Gaurasundara will come back. . . . that you were sympathetic that these young girls had no husbands, but . . . We have nothing to do with it. The girl is agreeable to going, to . . . she doesn't care, and I just want Gaurasundara to come back. (indistinct) . . . to this family. Gaurasundara is out of, also. These things will change our . . . (indistinct) . . . it is my suggestion that so many girls are without husband, if a husband can maintain three dozen wives I have no objection. He doesn't maintain me. Huh? Then what can I do? Yes. That is your affair. But I say if a person is able to maintain three dozen wives, then I have no objection. Now, if he does not maintain you, then what can I do? That is your situation. I think I have told her the same thing. *Neither it is my business to deal with family life. No more. That is my general opinion. But if they can maintain more than one wife . . . it is simply a question of maintaining. But if one is not maintaining, what can I do? Now we shall not deal with family affairs anymore. We give chance to the gṛhastha to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but we cannot tax our brain over that. That is not . . . generally gṛhastha should live apart from temple. Gṛhastha should not live in the temple. If there is . . . (indistinct) . . . becoming a problem. Every gṛhastha must take care of wife, children, maintenance. But how you can do that, temple*-living? Temple is meant for the renounced, for the brahmacārīs , who have no, I mean to say, embarrassment, that "I have to take care of my wife, I have to take care of children, I have to do this, I have to do that." As soon as one becomes gṛhastha , he has got his own . . . (indistinct) . . . so everyone has got his passion how to maintain their . . . (indistinct) . . . now how the temple can do it, handle this? Better avoid. This is a . . . (indistinct) . . . small temple . . . (indistinct) . . . gṛhastha . Temple is meant for person who is exclusively interested for Kṛṣṇa culture. We are advising to stop sex, and gṛhastha life is sex life. So how we can (laughs) tax our brain? The gṛhastha life is sex life, straightforward sex life. So we are advising "No sex." A constant worry in your . . . (indistinct) . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda. Huh? That must be worry in your . . . (indistinct) That's a fact. Don't worry. So about this sex āśrama , it is not possible to tax our brain. But according to the Vedic system, if a man marries more than one wife, there is no . . . how it is possible in this condition? We are in Western country . . . (indistinct) . . . but we are not Krsna, we can't maintain more than one wife. They cannot live in the temple separately in such a circum . . . Huh? If they want to do so, they can't live in the temple separately? No, no. In the temple even living with one wife it is not possible. We have to restrict them. No wives live in the temple in India. Family . . . (indistinct) . . . in certain circumstance, in the temple they live separately, but not in the temple building. That is strictly prohibited. It is becoming a great problem, because there are girls, there are boys, so the temple is becoming a lovemaking center. Even one grhastha . . . (indistinct) . . . he has got his wife, he is implicated with another woman. Even if one is gṛhastha . The girl is after another husband. This is the practice now in the Western countries. Even they are allowed to live as gṛhastha , then it will still create havoc. It will be very problematic. I thought, "Let them be married." So their business is different—sense enjoyment. Sometimes here, sometimes there, sometimes where? Sometimes take sannyāsa , then again implicated with another woman. These things are going on. It is . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot take care of the children, and not sending to school. Hmm? Every woman is taking care of her child. Why not woman taking care of ten children? Then the mothers will be free to do some help to the organization. Early in the morning they are coming. Everyone is anxious to take care of their children. Even they marry, there is problem, children and, what is it called, adultery. Eh? Mixing with another man's wife. Yes. And if they do not marry, the man is hunting after woman, and woman is hunting after man. So both ways there is trouble. If they marry, really, then there are children. Then the problem is you have to take care of the children. And they don't even take care of the children. This is great problem. The temple is meant for advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore those who are carefree of family life can live any way; there is no question of much anxiety for living and eating—that is secondary. Then they can live in temple. One who wants to live comfortably, requiring sex, children—that is a big problem for the temple. Apparently. These things disturb Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he wanted to make some stricture. But they become very much upset. I don't want to upset; let them live. But they must always remember the temple is meant for only advancing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We should not bring other problems. This household life is material problems, sex problems. So how the temple can take responsibility for these problems? Then Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be slack. So? That's all right? So don't . . . *Śrīla Prabhupāda, I wanted to show you these pictures also. Siddha*-svarūpa gave them to me. They are from . . . they are deities that they made in the Philippines, very inexpensively, by their sculptors there, and they are made out of wood. And they are copies. I just thought you would be interested. How big are those deities? You know? How big are those deities? *They are twenty*-seven inches high, and they only cost fifteen dollars each to make, and they are made out of carved wood. The anatomy is not very nice—I mean it could be better—but that is because I think they did not have anything to copy. But the Phili . . . they were very, very cheap for wood. Very cheap for that much craftsmanship. They are poor there. But Sudāmā Vipra Mahārāja . . . He sent? The picture is sent by him? *No. Siddha*-svarūpa just gave it to me as I was coming in. He showed it to me. And apparently it was sent to Siddha-svarūpa by Sudāmā, and I don't . . . . . . (indistinct) (break) This is concerning that BBT business in Vṛndāvana . . . in India. Gopal . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- May 24, 1976, Honolulu She has come to an impasse in her family life. She doesn't know what to do. So the situation, I think you are familiar with, that Gaurasundara has been living with this other girl for three years, and Govinda dāsī is under the impression that you've sanctioned that Gaurasundara can have two wives. He . . . she can imagine anything. What can I do? Well, he told me that you sanctioned it. I said that . . . Gaurasundara will come back. . . . that you were sympathetic that these young girls had no husbands, but . . . We have nothing to do with it. The girl is agreeable to going, to . . . she doesn't care, and I just want Gaurasundara to come back. (indistinct) . . . to this family. Gaurasundara is out of, also. These things will change our . . . (indistinct) . . . it is my suggestion that so many girls are without husband, if a husband can maintain three dozen wives I have no objection. He doesn't maintain me. Huh? Then what can I do? Yes. That is your affair. But I say if a person is able to maintain three dozen wives, then I have no objection. Now, if he does not maintain you, then what can I do? That is your situation. I think I have told her the same thing. *Neither it is my business to deal with family life. No more. That is my general opinion. But if they can maintain more than one wife . . . it is simply a question of maintaining. But if one is not maintaining, what can I do? Now we shall not deal with family affairs anymore. We give chance to the gṛhastha to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but we cannot tax our brain over that. That is not . . . generally gṛhastha should live apart from temple. Gṛhastha should not live in the temple. If there is . . . (indistinct) . . . becoming a problem. Every gṛhastha must take care of wife, children, maintenance. But how you can do that, temple*-living? Temple is meant for the renounced, for the brahmacārīs , who have no, I mean to say, embarrassment, that "I have to take care of my wife, I have to take care of children, I have to do this, I have to do that." As soon as one becomes gṛhastha , he has got his own . . . (indistinct) . . . so everyone has got his passion how to maintain their . . . (indistinct) . . . now how the temple can do it, handle this? Better avoid. This is a . . . (indistinct) . . . small temple . . . (indistinct) . . . gṛhastha . Temple is meant for person who is exclusively interested for Kṛṣṇa culture. We are advising to stop sex, and gṛhastha life is sex life. So how we can (laughs) tax our brain? The gṛhastha life is sex life, straightforward sex life. So we are advising "No sex." A constant worry in your . . . (indistinct) . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda. Huh? That must be worry in your . . . (indistinct) That's a fact. Don't worry. So about this sex āśrama , it is not possible to tax our brain. But according to the Vedic system, if a man marries more than one wife, there is no . . . how it is possible in this condition? We are in Western country . . . (indistinct) . . . but we are not Krsna, we can't maintain more than one wife. They cannot live in the temple separately in such a circum . . . Huh? If they want to do so, they can't live in the temple separately? No, no. In the temple even living with one wife it is not possible. We have to restrict them. No wives live in the temple in India. Family . . . (indistinct) . . . in certain circumstance, in the temple they live separately, but not in the temple building. That is strictly prohibited. It is becoming a great problem, because there are girls, there are boys, so the temple is becoming a lovemaking center. Even one grhastha . . . (indistinct) . . . he has got his wife, he is implicated with another woman. Even if one is gṛhastha . The girl is after another husband. This is the practice now in the Western countries. Even they are allowed to live as gṛhastha , then it will still create havoc. It will be very problematic. I thought, "Let them be married." So their business is different—sense enjoyment. Sometimes here, sometimes there, sometimes where? Sometimes take sannyāsa , then again implicated with another woman. These things are going on. It is . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot take care of the children, and not sending to school. Hmm? Every woman is taking care of her child. Why not woman taking care of ten children? Then the mothers will be free to do some help to the organization. Early in the morning they are coming. Everyone is anxious to take care of their children. Even they marry, there is problem, children and, what is it called, adultery. Eh? Mixing with another man's wife. Yes. And if they do not marry, the man is hunting after woman, and woman is hunting after man. So both ways there is trouble. If they marry, really, then there are children. Then the problem is you have to take care of the children. And they don't even take care of the children. This is great problem. The temple is meant for advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore those who are carefree of family life can live any way; there is no question of much anxiety for living and eating—that is secondary. Then they can live in temple. One who wants to live comfortably, requiring sex, children—that is a big problem for the temple. Apparently. These things disturb Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he wanted to make some stricture. But they become very much upset. I don't want to upset; let them live. But they must always remember the temple is meant for only advancing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We should not bring other problems. This household life is material problems, sex problems. So how the temple can take responsibility for these problems? Then Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be slack. So? That's all right? So don't . . . *Śrīla Prabhupāda, I wanted to show you these pictures also. Siddha*-svarūpa gave them to me. They are from . . . they are deities that they made in the Philippines, very inexpensively, by their sculptors there, and they are made out of wood. And they are copies. I just thought you would be interested. How big are those deities? You know? How big are those deities? *They are twenty*-seven inches high, and they only cost fifteen dollars each to make, and they are made out of carved wood. The anatomy is not very nice—I mean it could be better—but that is because I think they did not have anything to copy. But the Phili . . . they were very, very cheap for wood. Very cheap for that much craftsmanship. They are poor there. But Sudāmā Vipra Mahārāja . . . He sent? The picture is sent by him? *No. Siddha*-svarūpa just gave it to me as I was coming in. He showed it to me. And apparently it was sent to Siddha-svarūpa by Sudāmā, and I don't . . . . . . (indistinct) (break) This is concerning that BBT business in Vṛndāvana . . . in India. Gopal . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- May 30, 1976, Honolulu . . . also. So, little distant, no? It's a little distant is the only problem. And there are several other advantages. But I suggested that Jayatīrtha would be responsible as GBC. He was responsible. Well, I agree. Well, I can come . . . I have never been GBC for Hawaii. No? *I've never been GBC here. Bali*-mardana was GBC, and then after that time it was never resolved who would be GBC. But Sudāmā was here, and you told him to go direct to . . . (indistinct) . . . so I never suggested that I become the GBC, because it was . . . (indistinct) . . . more and more territory. Otherwise I would have been more concerned. (break) Anyway, do something. Nothing happening, that is not very good. Now they have a responsible president . . . Huh? There is a responsible president here, who will not be so whimsical . . . (indistinct) Hawaii was never part of the western zone; *it was always separate. Gaurasundara was here, it was separate. And then Bali*-mardana was here No, Gaurasundara was the GBC secretary. No, before his time. (indistinct conversation between devotees) (break) Don't sell the bigger one. The question is, if it is to be distributed in India, should we insert the Sanskrit, because in India, if it does not have Sanskrit, it may not be taken as authority. No. No. That is not. That is not necessary? No. Sanskrit is meant for the scholarly person, not for general public. And especially in the Western countries, if they see Sanskrit and the transliteration, they take it very seriously. (break) Just as it was, without any Sanskrit or any transliteration—just the verse and the purport? Yes. And some pictures. And we will include pictures, in color. *I think there is no purport . . . or verse. You have no copy of Gaura*-līlā ? Copy of the original? Abridged addition? Yes. Yes, we have copy. So there is no verse? There is verse in English. In English. There is translation and then purport, some purport. Yeah, but no verse. There's no verse in there. The verses are not there. There is straight translation and purport. Oh, I see, yes. Straight translation and purport. Śrīla Prabhupāda, you want me to have traveling saṅkīrtana party in India now? Yes. (break) The family members are compared with the foxes and jackals. They are all a liability? No. In the forest, when you are attacked by foxes and jackals, they take away your flesh and bones. My children are like that. And the senses are compared with the—what is called—dacoits, plunderers. Actually that is a fact. The senses . . . suppose a man is born in a rich family. To take birth in rich family is due to past pious activities. So pious activities means performing sacrifices, rituals—these are pious activities. So as a result of pious activities . . . it is sounding too much. Why? How before it was not sounding? We'll keep the curtain open. (break) In this bank. No, no, no. That is in the German bank. Seven hundred thousand. Seven hundred thousand. Marks? Right. Two hundred and eighty thousand dollars. Approximately. So we cannot withdraw that? No. It is in a fixed deposit in a bank account, but we can't withdraw it, but there's things to show that we can be able to get it. Oh. We cannot spend it? Not yet. But at least the police are not holding it any more. Back in our . . . (indistinct) . . . in India . . . (indistinct) So at least the money is safe now. Sounds that way. But if it is in a fixed deposit, then we can also use it actually. No. Fixed deposit for month, one month, so that we are not losing the interest. Fixed deposit means there is interest. Right. Also credit from the printer. He will see that we have the money in the bank. He will give us credit again, so we can print books in Germany. How's Gaurasundara? (break) If he surrenders, then there is no question of arrest. Yes, that is what they are arranging. Hmm. He said there won't be any problems. They can arrange it. They are going to talk to the prosecuting attorneys and set up a trial date and then leave it up to him. As long as he agrees to come back for the trial date. One of the questions that he had was that he wanted to know exactly what he and Brahmānanda should do. Should they . . . he knows that you want joint management in Europe, and he wants to know whether . . . he is going to call back on Monday. He wants to find out by that time whether he and Brahmānanda should take full charge of London, Paris and Germany, or what should be done. What is Haṁsadūta's desire? Well, I thought I would go back and go to Germany and see the situation with Brahmānanda. Yes. He has to go. So, when he has to go? He said it wasn't fixed yet. But he was meant to let Haṁsadūta know as soon as it was fixed up. Until we think of the proper situation, there should be a man there. Then let Haṁsadūta go and see the situation in Germany . . . then we decide. He said that Brahmānanda's willing to stay there and manage if you want him to. He said in that report that he was ready to come to Los Angeles immediately if you wanted him to stay there. That I know what I have said. First of all, let Haṁsadūta go there. And then I can discuss. Śrīla Prabhupāda, do you want me to . . . I get the impression from Paramahaṁsa that you wanted me to travel with you for some time. Yes. That I want for everyone. (pause) The tendency for becoming guru is there. But after all, every one of you should become guru . But why immature attempt? That is my question. Everyone will become guru when he is expert disciple, but why this immature attempt? Guru is not a thing, imitation. When one is mature, he becomes guru automatically. What is the answer to this, their making some attempt to become guru ? I am training you all to become guru in the future. Now the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the properties and everything, I will not take with me. They will remain where they are. It requires very mature treatment. But there has been some attempt to become guru immediately. Am I correct or not? Hm? We are also acting as guru . My other Godbrothers, they are also doing that. But we never attempted during the lifetime of our Guru Mahārāja. That is not the etiquette. It is an immature attempt. And it is not the thing that by artificial attempt one becomes guru . Guru is accepted by etiquette, not by artificial attempt. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā ( CC Madhya 7.128): "Follow My order and become guru ." Not that you become guru . Hmm? You have to follow the paramparā system, order. That is guru . Not that I declare myself as guru . No. That is not guru . Guru is he who has strictly followed the order of the spiritual master. He can become guru . Otherwise it will be spoilt. Artificial attempt is not good. (pause) *Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 8)—we are singing daily, hundred times. Guru means kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 7). Do you understand all these lines? You sing daily, thrice. Do you understand the meaning of these words? Can anyone explain? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya —"The spiritual master is very dear to Kṛṣṇa." *Yes. First of all one has to become very dear to Kṛṣṇa, then automatically he becomes guru . And when one becomes very dear to Kṛṣṇa, then he becomes guru , and by the mercy of such guru Kṛṣṇa becomes merciful. These are the statements of the śāstra. Ār nā koriho āśā . What is that, guru*-mukha-padma-vākya ? *Ār nā koriho mane āśā. Simply whatever you hear from the guru , try to execute it. Ār nā koriho mane āśā. Do not expect anything more. So whatever we are chanting, we are reading, we must realize that. The Gauḍīya Maṭha institution became a failure on account of disobedience and not following the orders. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura's statement about the verse vyavasāyātmikā buddhir —find out this verse from the Bhagavad*-gītā . The Caitanya-caritāmṛta statement, āmāra : one can become guru by the superior order. Shall I read it? Yes. *"Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolved is many*-branched." And the purport? *"A strong faith in Kṛṣṇa consciousness that one should be elevated to the highest perfection of life is called vyavasāyātmikā intelligence. The Caitanya*-caritāmṛta states: "Faith means unflinching trust in something sublime. When one is engaged in the duties of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he need not act in relationship to the material world, with obligations to family traditions, humanity or nationality. Fruitive activities are the engagements of one's reaction from past good or bad deeds. When one is awake in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he need no longer endeavor for good results in his activities. When one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all activities are on the absolute plane, for they are no longer subject to dualities like "good" and "bad." The highest perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is renunciation of the material conception of life. This state is automatically achieved by progressive Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The resolute purpose of a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is based on the knowledge ( vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ ) (BG 7.19) by which one comes to know perfectly that Vāsudeva, or Kṛṣṇa, is the root of all manifested causes. As water on the root of a tree is automatically distributed to the leaves and branches, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one can render the highest service to everyone—namely self, family, society, country, humanity, etc. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied by one's actions, then everyone will be satisfied." "Service in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is, however, best practiced under the able guidance of a spiritual master who is a bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa, who knows the nature of the student and who can guide him to act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As such, to be well versed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one has to act firmly and obey the representative of Kṛṣṇa, and one should accept the instructions of the bona fide spiritual master as one's mission in life. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura instructs us, in his famous prayers for the spiritual master, as follows: "By satisfaction of the spiritual master, the Supreme Personality of Godhead becomes satisfied. And by not satisfying the spiritual master, there is no chance of being promoted to the plane of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I should, therefore, meditate and pray for his mercy three times a day, and offer my respectful obeisances unto him, my spiritual master." "The whole process, however, depends on perfect knowledge of the soul beyond the conception of the body—not theoretically, but practically, when there is no longer chance for sense gratification manifested in fruitive activities. When one is not firmly fixed in mind . . . one who is not firmly fixed in mind is diverted by various types of fruitive activities." These artificial attempts to become guru is not the platform of guru . Do you all realize this now? Hm? Yes. Just like this Bal Yogi Guru Mahārāja. That kind of Guru Mahārāja anyone can become; it is not very difficult. But really guru is not like that. That is evaṁ paramparā viduḥ. Evaṁ paramparā . . . eh? Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Through the paramparā . Hmm? Imaṁ vivasvate yoga proktavān aham (BG 4.1). So the training period to attempt to become guru , that is not very good etiquette. That is artificial. At least officially during the lifetime of guru , nobody should attempt like that. The disciple should always remain as perfectly subordinate and be disciplined. Disciple means one who is being disciplined. That is disciple. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He is God, Kṛṣṇa; still He said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71): "My guru , seeing Me a fool number one, he has chastised Me." Now who can chastise Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu? But that is the way of disciplic succession. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, guru more mūrkha dekhi . Who can be guru of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and who is actually His guru who will say Caitanya Mahāprabhu is a fool? But He said that guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana : "My Guru Mahārāja found Me a fool number one, and therefore he has chastised Me." This is the position of disciple. So one who is always prepared to be chastised by guru , he is eligible to become guru . So these attempts are being done, just like Gaurasundara told that, "Why should I live under the subjugation of these people? Let me go away, to become a guru ." Similarly Sudāmā. This attempt will not be successful, but there is some attempt like that. What can be done? Such attempt will never be successful, but there are some attempts like that. (break) What is your answer? I think that everybody should resolve not to do it in any form at all. I have heard similar . . . I have heard this type of complaint from other places also, where some other devotees have tried to call themselves some type of a guru . Whenever I heard that, I have been very disturbed. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is desiring to be lower than the straw in the street. Hm? Caitanya Mahāprabhu is desiring to be lower than the straw in the street. So for him to desire to be guru , that is not in line with Caitanya Mahāprabhu. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, I am just trying to clarify—I don't want to offend anyone—but no disciple of yours should call himself dīkṣā*-guru or śikṣā-guru . Am I right? *Well, everyone is engaged to become śikṣā*-guru , but one should become perfect. The attempt is—what is called?—probationer. When probationer period is finished, then he is naturally, automatically, bona fide guru . Not in the probationer period. That is immature attempt. That will failure. Āmāra ājñāya (CC Madhya 7.128), Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "By My order." So all my disciples are expected to become śikṣā-guru on my order, not by his own order. That is meaning that I am giving sannyāsa , I am sending you to different places, so this means that you have to carry out the order of the guru very strictly; then you become mature. Otherwise it will be artificial attempt, and that kind of guru will not help. Just like there are so many guru s and avatāras and yogīs are coming. For time being there is some culture, and what is the effect? Just like this . . . what is that? Guru Mahārāja? No, no. Guru Mahārāja is later than that. Before that? Maharishi Yogi! So what is the effect? No one talks of him now. No. He is making big business. Huh? He has made his guru into guru business, big business. His men go to the college wearing tie and suit, and they initiate the students for one hundred dollars. He is making millions of dollars by cheating, and making it into a big business. He gets one hundred dollars, and he gives them a special mantra , which is just one line of . . . *That he was giving beginning by thirty*-five dollars. Now he has made it one hundred? Inflation! (laughter) The cost of being a guru has gone up. (laughter) We have one devotee named Bahulāśva, and his friend is working for this guru , this Maharishi Yogi. So he just got one letter saying that this cheating yogī , he went to Europe, and he has made millions of dollars by initiating students in the colleges there. *Thirty*-five thousand people. *He said the letter—we do not know if it is true—the letter reported that thirty*-five thousand people paid one hundred dollars to get some . . . to be cheated. So who wrote you that letter? One friend of our devotee Bahulāśva. Hmm. The world of the cheaters and the cheated. He is very famous, because he presents his method as very scientific. *You get a million*-dollar grant from the government . . . Huh? *Their group got a one*-million-dollar grant from the US government, so they presented research showing how Transcendental Meditation helps one to relax. So there is a big problem in America, because everyone is very much in anxiety, and the government recognizes that, so anything that will help them relax, they think is very good. It helps them get off drugs also. That's what the research showed. Yeah, one million dollars. He is very active on the college campuses; he is making great headway there. He is making millions of dollars just from the colleges. Every college has got very big displays. Posters. Posters of his Transcendental Meditation process. Very professional. Prabhupāda, in India they did some research on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Transcendental Meditation, and they found out . . . What is that Transcendental Meditation? We don't know. It is just a mantra . Bahulāśva's friend told him that they are giving one line of the klīṁ gāyatrī mantra . He teaches them to chant the word klīṁ over and over again. The chanting is there. For one hundred dollars they give you that word. Do they chant silently? They chant silently. Hmm? What is that? They chant for thirty times in a day for a few minutes. They chant silently this mantra . The chanting is there. So where is the difference between ours and theirs? Theirs is not given by a bona fide guru . They are also advocating meditating on void. *The difference is that he does not give them Kṛṣṇa. He does not mention Kṛṣṇa. He tells them that they are all God. He has written a commentary on Bhagavad*-gītā . Then why meditation if you are God? He is in the line of Śaṅkarācārya. He claims that he is coming from Śaṅkarācārya's disciplic succession. *Śaṅkarācārya says, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha*-mate. They have a story that Śaṅkarācārya was not healthy when he said that. (laughter) That is their story. God becomes unhealthy sometimes. (laughter) So what kind of God is he? If he is subjected to become unhealthy, like ordinary being, then what kind of God he is? But the reason it is popular is because each student gets to think that he can become God. Hmm. You don't have to take it seriously. You don't have to give up anything. Huh? There is no sacrifice involved, just a little money. They think it will help them develop something. I have met several people who have left him and who have realized that he is a cheat. They make the initial commitment, but after finalizing they all realize that he is a cheat. There are some like that? Oh, many! They do not consider him their spiritual master. The do not accept him as spiritual master. They do not surrender their life to him. It's just a business. It is a business where they are paying money to get a mantra . They do not accept him completely as spiritual master. And he is happy that way. No responsibility. He just takes their money. How old is he? He is old. He cannot even enjoy anymore. He has his own jet plane. Jet plane? He has his own jet plane. Yet he tells the college students that if you take this process of Transcendental Meditation then you will become more intelligent, your efficiency will increase, you will be able to get better grades. When you go into the business world you will be a big success. So he is holding that out in front of them, and they are all buying it. And that is his . . . It is compatible with sense gratification. Yes. You use it to increase your sense gratification. Well that is very encouraging for materialistic person. If one is doing austerity, and is able to gratify your senses very nicely, then he is pleased. It appears he has some mystic power to make everyone . . . make them believe in him. Śrīla Yes, that he has. Like that Sai Baba in India. I don't know about him but I met a lot of people who think that he is an incarnation of God. They say that he has done some mystic . . . We met one fellow, he said he is Bhagavān. We said: "Bhagavān means all beauty." He said: "Yes." We said: "You call him beautiful?" (laughter) He didn't look very beautiful to me. (laughter) About four days ago there was one devotee, Santoṣa. He is a Sanskrit editor. He was distributing books at Kennedy Airport, and one man walked up to him and said: "Hey, Kṛṣṇa is sitting in the Air India lounge!" So he went to the Air India lounge and there was an old Bengali sādhu . He did not even speak one word of English or Sanskrit. He had big beard and some ten, fifteen followers next to him, and one Indian businessman, and he was distributing chocolates to his followers. So Santoṣa went and sold him a book. Haribol! They were calling him to be Kṛṣṇa. Bala Yogi also said he was Kṛṣṇa. But now his wife is suing him in the court. It was on television. Bala Yogi's wife? Hm? *Yes. Bala Yogi is being sued by his wife in the court. I don't know. Someone told me they seen on television. And also various other people had financed him earlier, now they are filing claims against him for the money. And I read in an Indian newspaper that the city of Lucknow has filed a claim against Bala Yogi because they put up his posters all over the city, and they ruined the city property. So they filed an eleven*-thousand-rupees claim against him, and they will take them to court. He is not considered seriously, but this other, Maharishi Yogi, they take him as an important teacher. And with all the money he has made he has purchased one university in America. Oh. Really? What is the name? Parsons University, in Iowa. He has purchased the whole university to teach his nonsense. But the sincere souls realize that your movement is the only genuine movement. They say? The sincere persons realize that your movement . . . But how many sincere persons I have got? (laughter) All your disciples! Even our sympathizers are advanced. Do they speak anything about our movement? It is already known. What do they speak? They do not understand it. Hm? They do not understand it. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? They do not understand our movement, the purpose of it. Balyogeshwar made one comment about our movement. Hm. He said that, "They are actually my best disciples." (laughter) He said? He said that, "They love me so much, and they don't even know who I am." Yes, he said that. I remember reading that in the newspaper. He claimed that Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees are his best disciples. They are his best devotees, but they don't know it yet. He thinks he is Kṛṣṇa. Best disciple does not know him? (laughter) And still he is best! He is saying that someday we will realize that he is Kṛṣṇa. Does anyone become disciple without knowing him? This is too much . . . then how we become best disciple without knowing him? (laughter) And these things are published. You see: people are so foolish. They have no brain to understand a sentence. He says: "They are my best disciples but they do not know me." This is very good argument? Nonsense. But his whole movement is nonsense. Huh? No one takes him seriously anymore. There was a fight between his mother and his brother on one side and him on the other side. His mother says he was becoming too Westernized and wanted to take him back to India, and he said . . . because he married that Western girl. Hm. His secretary. And so they had a big fight. And his mother . . . his mother is actually the power behind him. She has organized everything, and the brother, the older brother. So I think they went back to India, and he remained here. But there's big disagreement . . . He did not go. Somebody said that he will be arrested. Yes, he can't go back because he ran away. They caught him smuggling about a year and a half ago. In fact there was an enquiry about this, how did he run away. The college students are a little afraid of us, because when they see us wearing the kurtā and dhotī , they think that that we are introducing something that is so different that they cannot relate to it. But these Maharishi Yogi people, they dress up in this Western clothes, with suit and tie. Hm. That is why Satsvarūpa Swami and his party, they also dress up in Western clothes to distribute books to the colleges. Otherwise they are a little fearful that this is something quite . . . (break) The first time I ever saw the devotees I was shocked. (laughter) I just stood there and looked for five minutes. They are afraid because they think we are monks, and they do not want to be monks. They do not . . . they are not thinking how to become monks when they go to college. So when they see us, they are a little afraid. So we are distributing lots of literature on the campuses to give them the philosophy of the *Vedas* , then they will appreciate us. But just by our appearance they are afraid that we are a threat to their Western way of life, sense gratification. The Ramakrishna Mission, they also dress like that, like sannyāsī . Only the sannyāsī generally dresses in Indian style, in the West. Devotee: No, no. They came to request me in the beginning that, "This dress will not appeal to them." If you dress like (indistinct) . . . when I was in New York they told me. Nikhilānanda? Nikhilānanda's men came to me, one Mr. Mukhal. So he said that, "This dress will not appeal. Dress like an American gentleman." So I said that "I am prepared to dress, but where is the dress? I am poor man. I cannot purchase." (laughter) He wanted you to wear a suit? Yes. I told him that, "If you can give me at least four nice suits, I can accept." (laughter) I can change one every alternate day. Must be nicely ironed. I know how to use this dress. In my young business life I used to have it, (laughter) but now I have no money. But since the very beginning I never dressed like . . . I mean, Kīrtanānda Mahārāja . . . the same dress as I am telling you. You are not afraid of, of this dress. No. But to distribute our books sometimes, in order to approach people so that they will not . . . That is another thing. That is another thing. Devotees are now wearing suits and wigs and going to campuses and airports. They have already started doing that. Hm. Silk? They wear suits . . . Ah. . . . and wigs to go to airports and places where they don't want to be recognized. Hmm. That is all right. Going very nicely. (someone enters) Mangoes? Good mangoes are coming nowadays. It is hot. Pretty good! Every morning there is a mango feast here. Haṁsadūta is the king. (laughter) King of the mangoes. (laughter) "King of mangoes" means? He eats the most. He is controlling the mango market? (laughter) *No, Guru*-krpa controls the market. It seems a little warm in here. Shall I open the window a little bit? Yes. Because we dress in the dhotīs , if they do not hear our philosophy, they think we are renouncing the world completely and have nothing positive to offer them. That is why we can introduce . . . if our writers for Back to Godhead become more expert, they can . . . We are not renouncing. We are actually accepting. You are renouncing. We are accepting the real world. *No. We are accepting the Kṛṣṇa's society, or Kṛṣṇa's association. Kṛṣṇa has got His society in Vṛndāvana. We are going to become one of the members of that society. But you are avoiding it. So you are renouncing. Our mission is back to home, back to Godhead, to enter into the society of associates of God—but you are avoiding it. You do not want. You want this temporary so*-called society, friendship and love, which will be finished within some years. That is your ignorance. This society will not stay. How long you shall remain American? You will not remain for many days. Then where is your position? You will be kicked out. However you may try to remain in this so-called society, friendship and love, you will not be allowed to stay. You will be forced to renounce. We are trying to enter into the society of Kṛṣṇa, where everything is eternal. *So which is better? Your so*-called society cannot stay here, however nicely dressed with hats and coats and boots. You will be kicked out. Then where you will go? Ask this question to them. When they say something, you also say something. Why you are silent? Silent means accepting his proposal. Somebody . . . if I say something, if I say you are a thief but if you do not protest, if you remain silent, that means you are thief. This is the conclusion. If they say something, you say also. When we meet individual people, we can easily explain to them our philosophy. That individual or collective, it does not matter. The argument is there. Suppose you want to stay in this dress, but you will not be allowed to stay. What is your answer? You will not be allowed. So you can be kicked out at any moment. In spite of your nice dress you will be kicked out. What is your answer to that? The medical doctors are working to extend our lifetimes longer. "In future." Then again they say same. "There is nothing after death." They will say that . . . they do not believe in an afterlife. An afterlife, that's all right. But you cannot stay in this dress. That is a fact. You will be kicked out in spite of your intention to stay. You again stay—you will be kicked out. Then how you are so confident? Nobody wants to be kicked out, but he is kicked out. So what is that course? You may think that there is no life after death, but you want to stay in this life to the last point. Even an old man, he does not want to die, but why he is kicked out against his will? What is their answer? Nobody . . . even the pig, in so abominable condition of life, if you go to kill him he will protest, scream, "No, no, no. Don't kill me, don't kill me, don't kill me." Why this protest? It is māyā . Kṛṣṇa's māyā . Kṛṣṇa's māyā is better, but what is the answer of this? Everybody wants to live. Yes. That is a fact. But he is kicked out. Then why does he not consider what is that force, that I don't want to die, but I am obliged to die? Who is . . . what is that force? Everything finished after this. They say everything will be . . . but this force will not be finished. The force will remain. The other living entities will remain back. They will also be forced. The force is permanent. They say it is nature. Material nature. That nature you may call any by name, but the force is there. So above you there is a force. That is a fact. They will admit that. They will admit. Then so why they say that everything will be finished? The force will remain. Why do they say, rascals, that everything is finished? They say it for themselves or . . . That is there, but others will see the force. The force will remain. Why they say that everything will be finished? What is the value of this statement? Their false egos. They have such big false egos that they are only thinking about their selves. That is so. They have nothing—insignificant. But the force is very great. That will remain. So why do you say everything is finished? They don't have any experience of anything that's gone out of existence. Actually, in the material world there is no experience of anything going out of existence. Matter is always transforming and changing. That energy is changing into different kinds of energy, but nothing ever goes out of existence. So their theory is that they are going to go out of existence. *Changing, changing, changing—that is going on in you also. You have changed so many bodies, and still individually you are there. Changing is going on everywhere. That is our beginning of philosophy. The yoga*-saṁyoga —you are getting one type of body, it is changing. In the process of changing, again you get another body, then that is also changing, changing. But you are there, permanently. In spite of all changes, you are there. Otherwise how you can know that my so many changes have taken place? I am there, because I am seeing the changes; therefore despite all changes I am there, the . . . (indistinct) . . . person. This is the conclusion. If you do not see changes, then what is the meaning of changes? (end) Conversation -- May 30, 1976, Honolulu . . . also. So, little distant, no? It's a little distant is the only problem. And there are several other advantages. But I suggested that Jayatīrtha would be responsible as GBC. He was responsible. Well, I agree. Well, I can come . . . I have never been GBC for Hawaii. No? *I've never been GBC here. Bali*-mardana was GBC, and then after that time it was never resolved who would be GBC. But Sudāmā was here, and you told him to go direct to . . . (indistinct) . . . so I never suggested that I become the GBC, because it was . . . (indistinct) . . . more and more territory. Otherwise I would have been more concerned. (break) Anyway, do something. Nothing happening, that is not very good. Now they have a responsible president . . . Huh? There is a responsible president here, who will not be so whimsical . . . (indistinct) Hawaii was never part of the western zone; *it was always separate. Gaurasundara was here, it was separate. And then Bali*-mardana was here No, Gaurasundara was the GBC secretary. No, before his time. (indistinct conversation between devotees) (break) Don't sell the bigger one. The question is, if it is to be distributed in India, should we insert the Sanskrit, because in India, if it does not have Sanskrit, it may not be taken as authority. No. No. That is not. That is not necessary? No. Sanskrit is meant for the scholarly person, not for general public. And especially in the Western countries, if they see Sanskrit and the transliteration, they take it very seriously. (break) Just as it was, without any Sanskrit or any transliteration—just the verse and the purport? Yes. And some pictures. And we will include pictures, in color. *I think there is no purport . . . or verse. You have no copy of Gaura*-līlā ? Copy of the original? Abridged addition? Yes. Yes, we have copy. So there is no verse? There is verse in English. In English. There is translation and then purport, some purport. Yeah, but no verse. There's no verse in there. The verses are not there. There is straight translation and purport. Oh, I see, yes. Straight translation and purport. Śrīla Prabhupāda, you want me to have traveling saṅkīrtana party in India now? Yes. (break) The family members are compared with the foxes and jackals. They are all a liability? No. In the forest, when you are attacked by foxes and jackals, they take away your flesh and bones. My children are like that. And the senses are compared with the—what is called—dacoits, plunderers. Actually that is a fact. The senses . . . suppose a man is born in a rich family. To take birth in rich family is due to past pious activities. So pious activities means performing sacrifices, rituals—these are pious activities. So as a result of pious activities . . . it is sounding too much. Why? How before it was not sounding? We'll keep the curtain open. (break) In this bank. No, no, no. That is in the German bank. Seven hundred thousand. Seven hundred thousand. Marks? Right. Two hundred and eighty thousand dollars. Approximately. So we cannot withdraw that? No. It is in a fixed deposit in a bank account, but we can't withdraw it, but there's things to show that we can be able to get it. Oh. We cannot spend it? Not yet. But at least the police are not holding it any more. Back in our . . . (indistinct) . . . in India . . . (indistinct) So at least the money is safe now. Sounds that way. But if it is in a fixed deposit, then we can also use it actually. No. Fixed deposit for month, one month, so that we are not losing the interest. Fixed deposit means there is interest. Right. Also credit from the printer. He will see that we have the money in the bank. He will give us credit again, so we can print books in Germany. How's Gaurasundara? (break) If he surrenders, then there is no question of arrest. Yes, that is what they are arranging. Hmm. He said there won't be any problems. They can arrange it. They are going to talk to the prosecuting attorneys and set up a trial date and then leave it up to him. As long as he agrees to come back for the trial date. One of the questions that he had was that he wanted to know exactly what he and Brahmānanda should do. Should they . . . he knows that you want joint management in Europe, and he wants to know whether . . . he is going to call back on Monday. He wants to find out by that time whether he and Brahmānanda should take full charge of London, Paris and Germany, or what should be done. What is Haṁsadūta's desire? Well, I thought I would go back and go to Germany and see the situation with Brahmānanda. Yes. He has to go. So, when he has to go? He said it wasn't fixed yet. But he was meant to let Haṁsadūta know as soon as it was fixed up. Until we think of the proper situation, there should be a man there. Then let Haṁsadūta go and see the situation in Germany . . . then we decide. He said that Brahmānanda's willing to stay there and manage if you want him to. He said in that report that he was ready to come to Los Angeles immediately if you wanted him to stay there. That I know what I have said. First of all, let Haṁsadūta go there. And then I can discuss. Śrīla Prabhupāda, do you want me to . . . I get the impression from Paramahaṁsa that you wanted me to travel with you for some time. Yes. That I want for everyone. (pause) The tendency for becoming guru is there. But after all, every one of you should become guru . But why immature attempt? That is my question. Everyone will become guru when he is expert disciple, but why this immature attempt? Guru is not a thing, imitation. When one is mature, he becomes guru automatically. What is the answer to this, their making some attempt to become guru ? I am training you all to become guru in the future. Now the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the properties and everything, I will not take with me. They will remain where they are. It requires very mature treatment. But there has been some attempt to become guru immediately. Am I correct or not? Hm? We are also acting as guru . My other Godbrothers, they are also doing that. But we never attempted during the lifetime of our Guru Mahārāja. That is not the etiquette. It is an immature attempt. And it is not the thing that by artificial attempt one becomes guru . Guru is accepted by etiquette, not by artificial attempt. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā ( CC Madhya 7.128): "Follow My order and become guru ." Not that you become guru . Hmm? You have to follow the paramparā system, order. That is guru . Not that I declare myself as guru . No. That is not guru . Guru is he who has strictly followed the order of the spiritual master. He can become guru . Otherwise it will be spoilt. Artificial attempt is not good. (pause) *Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 8)—we are singing daily, hundred times. Guru means kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 7). Do you understand all these lines? You sing daily, thrice. Do you understand the meaning of these words? Can anyone explain? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya —"The spiritual master is very dear to Kṛṣṇa." *Yes. First of all one has to become very dear to Kṛṣṇa, then automatically he becomes guru . And when one becomes very dear to Kṛṣṇa, then he becomes guru , and by the mercy of such guru Kṛṣṇa becomes merciful. These are the statements of the śāstra. Ār nā koriho āśā . What is that, guru*-mukha-padma-vākya ? *Ār nā koriho mane āśā. Simply whatever you hear from the guru , try to execute it. Ār nā koriho mane āśā. Do not expect anything more. So whatever we are chanting, we are reading, we must realize that. The Gauḍīya Maṭha institution became a failure on account of disobedience and not following the orders. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura's statement about the verse vyavasāyātmikā buddhir —find out this verse from the Bhagavad*-gītā . The Caitanya-caritāmṛta statement, āmāra : one can become guru by the superior order. Shall I read it? Yes. *"Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolved is many*-branched." And the purport? *"A strong faith in Kṛṣṇa consciousness that one should be elevated to the highest perfection of life is called vyavasāyātmikā intelligence. The Caitanya*-caritāmṛta states: "Faith means unflinching trust in something sublime. When one is engaged in the duties of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he need not act in relationship to the material world, with obligations to family traditions, humanity or nationality. Fruitive activities are the engagements of one's reaction from past good or bad deeds. When one is awake in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he need no longer endeavor for good results in his activities. When one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all activities are on the absolute plane, for they are no longer subject to dualities like "good" and "bad." The highest perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is renunciation of the material conception of life. This state is automatically achieved by progressive Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The resolute purpose of a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is based on the knowledge ( vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ ) (BG 7.19) by which one comes to know perfectly that Vāsudeva, or Kṛṣṇa, is the root of all manifested causes. As water on the root of a tree is automatically distributed to the leaves and branches, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one can render the highest service to everyone—namely self, family, society, country, humanity, etc. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied by one's actions, then everyone will be satisfied." "Service in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is, however, best practiced under the able guidance of a spiritual master who is a bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa, who knows the nature of the student and who can guide him to act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As such, to be well versed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one has to act firmly and obey the representative of Kṛṣṇa, and one should accept the instructions of the bona fide spiritual master as one's mission in life. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura instructs us, in his famous prayers for the spiritual master, as follows: "By satisfaction of the spiritual master, the Supreme Personality of Godhead becomes satisfied. And by not satisfying the spiritual master, there is no chance of being promoted to the plane of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I should, therefore, meditate and pray for his mercy three times a day, and offer my respectful obeisances unto him, my spiritual master." "The whole process, however, depends on perfect knowledge of the soul beyond the conception of the body—not theoretically, but practically, when there is no longer chance for sense gratification manifested in fruitive activities. When one is not firmly fixed in mind . . . one who is not firmly fixed in mind is diverted by various types of fruitive activities." These artificial attempts to become guru is not the platform of guru . Do you all realize this now? Hm? Yes. Just like this Bal Yogi Guru Mahārāja. That kind of Guru Mahārāja anyone can become; it is not very difficult. But really guru is not like that. That is evaṁ paramparā viduḥ. Evaṁ paramparā . . . eh? Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Through the paramparā . Hmm? Imaṁ vivasvate yoga proktavān aham (BG 4.1). So the training period to attempt to become guru , that is not very good etiquette. That is artificial. At least officially during the lifetime of guru , nobody should attempt like that. The disciple should always remain as perfectly subordinate and be disciplined. Disciple means one who is being disciplined. That is disciple. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He is God, Kṛṣṇa; still He said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71): "My guru , seeing Me a fool number one, he has chastised Me." Now who can chastise Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu? But that is the way of disciplic succession. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, guru more mūrkha dekhi . Who can be guru of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and who is actually His guru who will say Caitanya Mahāprabhu is a fool? But He said that guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana : "My Guru Mahārāja found Me a fool number one, and therefore he has chastised Me." This is the position of disciple. So one who is always prepared to be chastised by guru , he is eligible to become guru . So these attempts are being done, just like Gaurasundara told that, "Why should I live under the subjugation of these people? Let me go away, to become a guru ." Similarly Sudāmā. This attempt will not be successful, but there is some attempt like that. What can be done? Such attempt will never be successful, but there are some attempts like that. (break) What is your answer? I think that everybody should resolve not to do it in any form at all. I have heard similar . . . I have heard this type of complaint from other places also, where some other devotees have tried to call themselves some type of a guru . Whenever I heard that, I have been very disturbed. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is desiring to be lower than the straw in the street. Hm? Caitanya Mahāprabhu is desiring to be lower than the straw in the street. So for him to desire to be guru , that is not in line with Caitanya Mahāprabhu. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, I am just trying to clarify—I don't want to offend anyone—but no disciple of yours should call himself dīkṣā*-guru or śikṣā-guru . Am I right? *Well, everyone is engaged to become śikṣā*-guru , but one should become perfect. The attempt is—what is called?—probationer. When probationer period is finished, then he is naturally, automatically, bona fide guru . Not in the probationer period. That is immature attempt. That will failure. Āmāra ājñāya (CC Madhya 7.128), Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "By My order." So all my disciples are expected to become śikṣā-guru on my order, not by his own order. That is meaning that I am giving sannyāsa , I am sending you to different places, so this means that you have to carry out the order of the guru very strictly; then you become mature. Otherwise it will be artificial attempt, and that kind of guru will not help. Just like there are so many guru s and avatāras and yogīs are coming. For time being there is some culture, and what is the effect? Just like this . . . what is that? Guru Mahārāja? No, no. Guru Mahārāja is later than that. Before that? Maharishi Yogi! So what is the effect? No one talks of him now. No. He is making big business. Huh? He has made his guru into guru business, big business. His men go to the college wearing tie and suit, and they initiate the students for one hundred dollars. He is making millions of dollars by cheating, and making it into a big business. He gets one hundred dollars, and he gives them a special mantra , which is just one line of . . . *That he was giving beginning by thirty*-five dollars. Now he has made it one hundred? Inflation! (laughter) The cost of being a guru has gone up. (laughter) We have one devotee named Bahulāśva, and his friend is working for this guru , this Maharishi Yogi. So he just got one letter saying that this cheating yogī , he went to Europe, and he has made millions of dollars by initiating students in the colleges there. *Thirty*-five thousand people. *He said the letter—we do not know if it is true—the letter reported that thirty*-five thousand people paid one hundred dollars to get some . . . to be cheated. So who wrote you that letter? One friend of our devotee Bahulāśva. Hmm. The world of the cheaters and the cheated. He is very famous, because he presents his method as very scientific. *You get a million*-dollar grant from the government . . . Huh? *Their group got a one*-million-dollar grant from the US government, so they presented research showing how Transcendental Meditation helps one to relax. So there is a big problem in America, because everyone is very much in anxiety, and the government recognizes that, so anything that will help them relax, they think is very good. It helps them get off drugs also. That's what the research showed. Yeah, one million dollars. He is very active on the college campuses; he is making great headway there. He is making millions of dollars just from the colleges. Every college has got very big displays. Posters. Posters of his Transcendental Meditation process. Very professional. Prabhupāda, in India they did some research on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Transcendental Meditation, and they found out . . . What is that Transcendental Meditation? We don't know. It is just a mantra . Bahulāśva's friend told him that they are giving one line of the klīṁ gāyatrī mantra . He teaches them to chant the word klīṁ over and over again. The chanting is there. For one hundred dollars they give you that word. Do they chant silently? They chant silently. Hmm? What is that? They chant for thirty times in a day for a few minutes. They chant silently this mantra . The chanting is there. So where is the difference between ours and theirs? Theirs is not given by a bona fide guru . They are also advocating meditating on void. *The difference is that he does not give them Kṛṣṇa. He does not mention Kṛṣṇa. He tells them that they are all God. He has written a commentary on Bhagavad*-gītā . Then why meditation if you are God? He is in the line of Śaṅkarācārya. He claims that he is coming from Śaṅkarācārya's disciplic succession. *Śaṅkarācārya says, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha*-mate. They have a story that Śaṅkarācārya was not healthy when he said that. (laughter) That is their story. God becomes unhealthy sometimes. (laughter) So what kind of God is he? If he is subjected to become unhealthy, like ordinary being, then what kind of God he is? But the reason it is popular is because each student gets to think that he can become God. Hmm. You don't have to take it seriously. You don't have to give up anything. Huh? There is no sacrifice involved, just a little money. They think it will help them develop something. I have met several people who have left him and who have realized that he is a cheat. They make the initial commitment, but after finalizing they all realize that he is a cheat. There are some like that? Oh, many! They do not consider him their spiritual master. The do not accept him as spiritual master. They do not surrender their life to him. It's just a business. It is a business where they are paying money to get a mantra . They do not accept him completely as spiritual master. And he is happy that way. No responsibility. He just takes their money. How old is he? He is old. He cannot even enjoy anymore. He has his own jet plane. Jet plane? He has his own jet plane. Yet he tells the college students that if you take this process of Transcendental Meditation then you will become more intelligent, your efficiency will increase, you will be able to get better grades. When you go into the business world you will be a big success. So he is holding that out in front of them, and they are all buying it. And that is his . . . It is compatible with sense gratification. Yes. You use it to increase your sense gratification. Well that is very encouraging for materialistic person. If one is doing austerity, and is able to gratify your senses very nicely, then he is pleased. It appears he has some mystic power to make everyone . . . make them believe in him. Śrīla Yes, that he has. Like that Sai Baba in India. I don't know about him but I met a lot of people who think that he is an incarnation of God. They say that he has done some mystic . . . We met one fellow, he said he is Bhagavān. We said: "Bhagavān means all beauty." He said: "Yes." We said: "You call him beautiful?" (laughter) He didn't look very beautiful to me. (laughter) About four days ago there was one devotee, Santoṣa. He is a Sanskrit editor. He was distributing books at Kennedy Airport, and one man walked up to him and said: "Hey, Kṛṣṇa is sitting in the Air India lounge!" So he went to the Air India lounge and there was an old Bengali sādhu . He did not even speak one word of English or Sanskrit. He had big beard and some ten, fifteen followers next to him, and one Indian businessman, and he was distributing chocolates to his followers. So Santoṣa went and sold him a book. Haribol! They were calling him to be Kṛṣṇa. Bala Yogi also said he was Kṛṣṇa. But now his wife is suing him in the court. It was on television. Bala Yogi's wife? Hm? *Yes. Bala Yogi is being sued by his wife in the court. I don't know. Someone told me they seen on television. And also various other people had financed him earlier, now they are filing claims against him for the money. And I read in an Indian newspaper that the city of Lucknow has filed a claim against Bala Yogi because they put up his posters all over the city, and they ruined the city property. So they filed an eleven*-thousand-rupees claim against him, and they will take them to court. He is not considered seriously, but this other, Maharishi Yogi, they take him as an important teacher. And with all the money he has made he has purchased one university in America. Oh. Really? What is the name? Parsons University, in Iowa. He has purchased the whole university to teach his nonsense. But the sincere souls realize that your movement is the only genuine movement. They say? The sincere persons realize that your movement . . . But how many sincere persons I have got? (laughter) All your disciples! Even our sympathizers are advanced. Do they speak anything about our movement? It is already known. What do they speak? They do not understand it. Hm? They do not understand it. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? They do not understand our movement, the purpose of it. Balyogeshwar made one comment about our movement. Hm. He said that, "They are actually my best disciples." (laughter) He said? He said that, "They love me so much, and they don't even know who I am." Yes, he said that. I remember reading that in the newspaper. He claimed that Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees are his best disciples. They are his best devotees, but they don't know it yet. He thinks he is Kṛṣṇa. Best disciple does not know him? (laughter) And still he is best! He is saying that someday we will realize that he is Kṛṣṇa. Does anyone become disciple without knowing him? This is too much . . . then how we become best disciple without knowing him? (laughter) And these things are published. You see: people are so foolish. They have no brain to understand a sentence. He says: "They are my best disciples but they do not know me." This is very good argument? Nonsense. But his whole movement is nonsense. Huh? No one takes him seriously anymore. There was a fight between his mother and his brother on one side and him on the other side. His mother says he was becoming too Westernized and wanted to take him back to India, and he said . . . because he married that Western girl. Hm. His secretary. And so they had a big fight. And his mother . . . his mother is actually the power behind him. She has organized everything, and the brother, the older brother. So I think they went back to India, and he remained here. But there's big disagreement . . . He did not go. Somebody said that he will be arrested. Yes, he can't go back because he ran away. They caught him smuggling about a year and a half ago. In fact there was an enquiry about this, how did he run away. The college students are a little afraid of us, because when they see us wearing the kurtā and dhotī , they think that that we are introducing something that is so different that they cannot relate to it. But these Maharishi Yogi people, they dress up in this Western clothes, with suit and tie. Hm. That is why Satsvarūpa Swami and his party, they also dress up in Western clothes to distribute books to the colleges. Otherwise they are a little fearful that this is something quite . . . (break) The first time I ever saw the devotees I was shocked. (laughter) I just stood there and looked for five minutes. They are afraid because they think we are monks, and they do not want to be monks. They do not . . . they are not thinking how to become monks when they go to college. So when they see us, they are a little afraid. So we are distributing lots of literature on the campuses to give them the philosophy of the *Vedas* , then they will appreciate us. But just by our appearance they are afraid that we are a threat to their Western way of life, sense gratification. The Ramakrishna Mission, they also dress like that, like sannyāsī . Only the sannyāsī generally dresses in Indian style, in the West. Devotee: No, no. They came to request me in the beginning that, "This dress will not appeal to them." If you dress like (indistinct) . . . when I was in New York they told me. Nikhilānanda? Nikhilānanda's men came to me, one Mr. Mukhal. So he said that, "This dress will not appeal. Dress like an American gentleman." So I said that "I am prepared to dress, but where is the dress? I am poor man. I cannot purchase." (laughter) He wanted you to wear a suit? Yes. I told him that, "If you can give me at least four nice suits, I can accept." (laughter) I can change one every alternate day. Must be nicely ironed. I know how to use this dress. In my young business life I used to have it, (laughter) but now I have no money. But since the very beginning I never dressed like . . . I mean, Kīrtanānda Mahārāja . . . the same dress as I am telling you. You are not afraid of, of this dress. No. But to distribute our books sometimes, in order to approach people so that they will not . . . That is another thing. That is another thing. Devotees are now wearing suits and wigs and going to campuses and airports. They have already started doing that. Hm. Silk? They wear suits . . . Ah. . . . and wigs to go to airports and places where they don't want to be recognized. Hmm. That is all right. Going very nicely. (someone enters) Mangoes? Good mangoes are coming nowadays. It is hot. Pretty good! Every morning there is a mango feast here. Haṁsadūta is the king. (laughter) King of the mangoes. (laughter) "King of mangoes" means? He eats the most. He is controlling the mango market? (laughter) *No, Guru*-krpa controls the market. It seems a little warm in here. Shall I open the window a little bit? Yes. Because we dress in the dhotīs , if they do not hear our philosophy, they think we are renouncing the world completely and have nothing positive to offer them. That is why we can introduce . . . if our writers for Back to Godhead become more expert, they can . . . We are not renouncing. We are actually accepting. You are renouncing. We are accepting the real world. *No. We are accepting the Kṛṣṇa's society, or Kṛṣṇa's association. Kṛṣṇa has got His society in Vṛndāvana. We are going to become one of the members of that society. But you are avoiding it. So you are renouncing. Our mission is back to home, back to Godhead, to enter into the society of associates of God—but you are avoiding it. You do not want. You want this temporary so*-called society, friendship and love, which will be finished within some years. That is your ignorance. This society will not stay. How long you shall remain American? You will not remain for many days. Then where is your position? You will be kicked out. However you may try to remain in this so-called society, friendship and love, you will not be allowed to stay. You will be forced to renounce. We are trying to enter into the society of Kṛṣṇa, where everything is eternal. *So which is better? Your so*-called society cannot stay here, however nicely dressed with hats and coats and boots. You will be kicked out. Then where you will go? Ask this question to them. When they say something, you also say something. Why you are silent? Silent means accepting his proposal. Somebody . . . if I say something, if I say you are a thief but if you do not protest, if you remain silent, that means you are thief. This is the conclusion. If they say something, you say also. When we meet individual people, we can easily explain to them our philosophy. That individual or collective, it does not matter. The argument is there. Suppose you want to stay in this dress, but you will not be allowed to stay. What is your answer? You will not be allowed. So you can be kicked out at any moment. In spite of your nice dress you will be kicked out. What is your answer to that? The medical doctors are working to extend our lifetimes longer. "In future." Then again they say same. "There is nothing after death." They will say that . . . they do not believe in an afterlife. An afterlife, that's all right. But you cannot stay in this dress. That is a fact. You will be kicked out in spite of your intention to stay. You again stay—you will be kicked out. Then how you are so confident? Nobody wants to be kicked out, but he is kicked out. So what is that course? You may think that there is no life after death, but you want to stay in this life to the last point. Even an old man, he does not want to die, but why he is kicked out against his will? What is their answer? Nobody . . . even the pig, in so abominable condition of life, if you go to kill him he will protest, scream, "No, no, no. Don't kill me, don't kill me, don't kill me." Why this protest? It is māyā . Kṛṣṇa's māyā . Kṛṣṇa's māyā is better, but what is the answer of this? Everybody wants to live. Yes. That is a fact. But he is kicked out. Then why does he not consider what is that force, that I don't want to die, but I am obliged to die? Who is . . . what is that force? Everything finished after this. They say everything will be . . . but this force will not be finished. The force will remain. The other living entities will remain back. They will also be forced. The force is permanent. They say it is nature. Material nature. That nature you may call any by name, but the force is there. So above you there is a force. That is a fact. They will admit that. They will admit. Then so why they say that everything will be finished? The force will remain. Why do they say, rascals, that everything is finished? They say it for themselves or . . . That is there, but others will see the force. The force will remain. Why they say that everything will be finished? What is the value of this statement? Their false egos. They have such big false egos that they are only thinking about their selves. That is so. They have nothing—insignificant. But the force is very great. That will remain. So why do you say everything is finished? They don't have any experience of anything that's gone out of existence. Actually, in the material world there is no experience of anything going out of existence. Matter is always transforming and changing. That energy is changing into different kinds of energy, but nothing ever goes out of existence. So their theory is that they are going to go out of existence. *Changing, changing, changing—that is going on in you also. You have changed so many bodies, and still individually you are there. Changing is going on everywhere. That is our beginning of philosophy. The yoga*-saṁyoga —you are getting one type of body, it is changing. In the process of changing, again you get another body, then that is also changing, changing. But you are there, permanently. In spite of all changes, you are there. Otherwise how you can know that my so many changes have taken place? I am there, because I am seeing the changes; therefore despite all changes I am there, the . . . (indistinct) . . . person. This is the conclusion. If you do not see changes, then what is the meaning of changes? (end) Conversation -- May 31, 1976, Honolulu (Philosophy Discussion with Hayagrīva) Well that's the end of Kierkegaard. That's all. We will continue? It's up to you. Hm? Do you want to go on to Skinner, or stop? No. Stop. Stop? Tomorrow. Tomorrow? Well tomorrow we go . . . we travel. Oh, that's all right. How many are there? How many are left? (laughs) Volumes? I'm trying to make it as short as possible. No, we can discuss some philosophers; whether it is necessary . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you, if you think that all these advertised philosophers should be cut, therefore I . . . I am not. Well this, erm, B. F. Skinner, Śyāmasundara began him. That's all right. Some people thought he's . . . think he's important. I, I personally don't. That's my personal opinion on . . . he's a behaviorist, and he tried to set up a, a community called . . . he wrote a book called Walden Two , and it became a very popular book. When communities were being set up like New Vṛindaban, in 1968, this book became popular. And it was, uh . . . I don't think much of his philosophy, but he's a behaviorist. He believes that if you can control . . . you can control people by controlling the environment in which they live. That's the same as Marx's philosophy. *Mmm*-hmm. And, er . . . That is everyone's philosophy. Everyone wants to make a group. That's what you were saying this morning. They want to control nature rather than control their own natures. He felt first you control the environment, then you can control man, instead of the other way. Do you want to deal with all of these? I do not know. *Uh*-huh. Well, in Los Angeles they gave me a big, big list of all these people. They say all these people are important. And I've deleted a number of them, and wound up with the number thirty-eight, total. And we have about . . . oh, I figure we'd finish them all by the time you leave Los Angeles. If I can meet with you daily in Los Angeles, then we could finish them. Otherwise, some could be deleted. No. They can be shortly discussed. *Mmm*-hmm. Essential point. Essential point. Otherwise you come to New Vrindavan. Hmm. Hm? He's trying to get them finished before we leave Los Angeles, but there's always New Vrindavan. You can discuss there also. Yes. So the next meeting will be Wednesday evening, in Los Angeles? You arrive in Los Angeles Tuesday night, tomorrow night. If I'm not on the same plane, I'll be on the next plane. Yes. So I will see you Wednesday evening. I think that . . . When you are going? Which flight? I'm planning to go standby on your flight, because I can't get reservations. And if I don't get on your flight, I'm going on the same one with Hayagrīva—the one after that. But I'm hoping to go with . . . Yes. (break) I wanted to show you this here. What is that? This is the stone that we were thinking of using. What? This is the silica and concrete mix that we were thinking of using. Oh. It . . . it should be shiny, but it's never been . . . (indistinct) . . . but it's not shiny, but the other side's not smooth. It could be colored in different ways, and this is a quick experiment. It is completely dried? *Erm, it hasn't quite completely dried. It's supposed to dry twenty*-four hours, and it hasn't been quite twenty-four hours. So it gets harder as it dries. Yes. Do . . . do you like it okay? Oh, yes. It will be very heavy. Yes, because it's concrete. Hm. You'd prefer something lighter? No. Everything should be very strong. Thank you. (pause) (break) What did he say? (end) Conversation -- May 31, 1976, Honolulu (Philosophy Discussion with Hayagrīva) Well that's the end of Kierkegaard. That's all. We will continue? It's up to you. Hm? Do you want to go on to Skinner, or stop? No. Stop. Stop? Tomorrow. Tomorrow? Well tomorrow we go . . . we travel. Oh, that's all right. How many are there? How many are left? (laughs) Volumes? I'm trying to make it as short as possible. No, we can discuss some philosophers; whether it is necessary . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you, if you think that all these advertised philosophers should be cut, therefore I . . . I am not. Well this, erm, B. F. Skinner, Śyāmasundara began him. That's all right. Some people thought he's . . . think he's important. I, I personally don't. That's my personal opinion on . . . he's a behaviorist, and he tried to set up a, a community called . . . he wrote a book called Walden Two , and it became a very popular book. When communities were being set up like New Vṛindaban, in 1968, this book became popular. And it was, uh . . . I don't think much of his philosophy, but he's a behaviorist. He believes that if you can control . . . you can control people by controlling the environment in which they live. That's the same as Marx's philosophy. *Mmm*-hmm. And, er . . . That is everyone's philosophy. Everyone wants to make a group. That's what you were saying this morning. They want to control nature rather than control their own natures. He felt first you control the environment, then you can control man, instead of the other way. Do you want to deal with all of these? I do not know. *Uh*-huh. Well, in Los Angeles they gave me a big, big list of all these people. They say all these people are important. And I've deleted a number of them, and wound up with the number thirty-eight, total. And we have about . . . oh, I figure we'd finish them all by the time you leave Los Angeles. If I can meet with you daily in Los Angeles, then we could finish them. Otherwise, some could be deleted. No. They can be shortly discussed. *Mmm*-hmm. Essential point. Essential point. Otherwise you come to New Vrindavan. Hmm. Hm? He's trying to get them finished before we leave Los Angeles, but there's always New Vrindavan. You can discuss there also. Yes. So the next meeting will be Wednesday evening, in Los Angeles? You arrive in Los Angeles Tuesday night, tomorrow night. If I'm not on the same plane, I'll be on the next plane. Yes. So I will see you Wednesday evening. I think that . . . When you are going? Which flight? I'm planning to go standby on your flight, because I can't get reservations. And if I don't get on your flight, I'm going on the same one with Hayagrīva—the one after that. But I'm hoping to go with . . . Yes. (break) I wanted to show you this here. What is that? This is the stone that we were thinking of using. What? This is the silica and concrete mix that we were thinking of using. Oh. It . . . it should be shiny, but it's never been . . . (indistinct) . . . but it's not shiny, but the other side's not smooth. It could be colored in different ways, and this is a quick experiment. It is completely dried? *Erm, it hasn't quite completely dried. It's supposed to dry twenty*-four hours, and it hasn't been quite twenty-four hours. So it gets harder as it dries. Yes. Do . . . do you like it okay? Oh, yes. It will be very heavy. Yes, because it's concrete. Hm. You'd prefer something lighter? No. Everything should be very strong. Thank you. (pause) (break) What did he say? (end) Interview -- June 3, 1976, Los Angeles Do you want to sit on chairs or . . .? No, this is fine. Oh, good. Indian style. How large is the newspaper? The circulation? 450,000. Half a million. Ah, Swami? What is your purpose here with your, ah . . . with the faith in seeking the growth and so on? (to Rāmeśvara) That is the purpose you can explain. The purpose of our, of our seeking the growth is so that people all over the world can become happy again. People who are suffering due to lack of knowledge about who they are and what their relationship is with God, and as a result of that ignorance, they're performing so many activities which cause them pain and misery, so that they can become happy again. Ah. How is . . . how will this be achieved? Misery . . . misery is caused due to ignorance. Do you admit or not? The more we are kept in darkness of knowledge, we suffer. What is the difference between ah . . . what is called? Developed nations and not developed nations. This America belonged to the Red Indians. And because they are not developed, their condition was developed, ah, different from the present America. They could not construct such big, big house, and big, big roads, and like that, because they are in ignorance. That is the difference. Prosperity, no prosperity; happiness, not happiness—they are ignorance and knowledge. They have . . . is it that they have confused materialism with happiness? Not material, I mean, I mean to say, happiness is knowledge. Hmm. Happiness is knowledge. Man who is in ignorance, he is suffering, and that you say material and spiritually. A person who is not in developed consciousness, he is suffering. And they commit sinful acts also. I beg your pardon? They commit sinful acts also in ignorance. That is the difference between man and animal. Animal means not developed consciousness. They . . . some of them, they say the animal has no soul. That is foolishness. Animal has soul, but the consciousness is not developed. Just like a child. Father's consciousness and the child's consciousness, different. Why it is different? The child's consciousness is not developed. Father's consciousness is developed. Because the child is talking some nonsense, you cannot say there is no soul. There is soul, but the consciousness is not developed. Do you see hope for mankind in the future? Yes. Man can be happy immediately, provided the consciousness is developed. Can . . . do you think that this will ever be achieved? Yes. It can be achieved. Just like I have sent a letter to your government asking them questions that you write on the bills, "In God We Trust." So whether you trust in God blindly or knowingly? That was my question. Suppose I trust you. So you must be trustworthy. Otherwise why shall I trust you? So this question I asked your government, "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so what kind of trust is this?" If you actually trust, then you must know that God is trustworthy. Only blindly trust as a slogan. But that letter is not in reply. So what is your opinion? "In God We Trust," so how do trust? Why you trust? This is my question. It would be a matter of faith, I suppose. Eh? It would be a matter of faith, I suppose. Faith may be different. You may have faith, I may not have faith. That is not the question. Just like in the bank you deposit some money. If some may have faith or no faith, but that bank is trustworthy. You know that your money deposited in the bank will not be cheated. Similarly, if you trust in God, then you must know whether God is trustworthy. Whether . . . what do you mean by God? This is not the question of faith. Faith is blind. It is a question of understanding. So that we want, that America specially—you are favored amongst all other nations; *you are well*-to-do, richer than other nations—so why don't you take God seriously? Why should you trust in God as faith? No. You understand what is God and have your faith at full that, "God is, yes, trustworthy," so that others may also know that God is trustworthy. That is our mission, that why God in trust? Are we trusting God should be a slogan? Let it be a fact by scientific study, by scientific understanding. There is way to understand why God is trustworthy. It's not the question of faith. It is a fact. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just like a child had . . . has faith in his parents. So that is not an artificial thing. That is fact. And parents are trustworthy to the child—there is no doubt about it—by nature. So similarly, why could . . . you should be trust in God? Why blindly? Why not trust with knowledge? And that is our movement. Every civilized person has got some faith in God. But now they're advanced, they should understand what is God, why you must have faith in Him. That is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It's a matter of educating . . . Simply faith, blind faith, will not endure. And therefore they are becoming godless. And gradually, if we do not understand factually what is God, then the whole human civilization will be godless. To become godless means again animal. That is the difference between animal and man. In the animal society there is no question of religion, faith, God. These things are not there. The human civilization, if it becomes like that, without any faith in God, without any understanding of God, then where is the difference between cats and dogs and human beings? They must know God scientifically. That is the actual aim of human life. Suppose the dog is sleeping on the street without any care whether a car is coming and smash it. He's also sleeping sound sleep. And we are sleeping in a very nice apartment. So after all, sleeping. And he is also enjoying sleeping, I am also enjoying sleeping. So do you think to change the, I mean to say, circumstances of the sleeping? I am sleeping in a very nice apartment, he's sleeping on the floor. Does it mean this is advancement of civilization? Sleeping is sleeping. Eating is eating. Sex life—the male dog enjoying with female dog, the sex pleasure is to him, and we are enjoying with a beautiful lover. The sex pleasure is the same. Therefore, you take some eatable, either on gold fork, or in iron fork, the taste is the same. Simply like putting the foodstuff in the golden fork, does it mean the taste has changed? So, the taste of eating, sleeping, mating and defending is the same for the human being as well as the animals. The difference . . . what is the difference between the animals and the human? The animal cannot know God. That is not possible. The human being can know. That is the opportunity of this human life. If we are missing that opportunity, then we are leading an animal civilization. This is not civilization. Animal life is not civilization. Civilized means not animal life. Something more than that. That is God consciousness. Do you have programs developed to educate mankind towards this God consciousness? Yes. Concrete education. Not fictitious. Concrete. How will . . . how will you get man to become aware of the situation so he could desire—even desire unconsciously? *It is a very simple fact. If you simply understand that one verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā , there it is stated that: Very simple thing. Just like the art of the material nature. Everything is coming out of the material nature, beginning from the grass to the highest intellectual human being or more than that. Wherefrom they are coming? From this material nature, either earth, water, fire, this element, some material nature. Let us see from the ground, the grass is coming, the vegetable is coming. From the water the fishes are coming, all the ants are coming, the germs are coming. Then, after eating that vegetable, the animals are coming. In this way everything is coming, generated from the earth, from the material nature. Is it not a fact? Mmm. So, we are coming from material nature. That means we are . . . material nature is our mother. From the womb of mother, the child comes from. So from the material nature everything is coming. Therefore according to Vedic knowledge, this earth is also mother. We have got seven mothers according to Vedic civilization: *Ātma*-mātā means original mother, real mother. And guroḥ patnī , the wife of teacher. The wife of a brāhmaṇa . . . brāhmaṇa means the most intellectual class of men in the human society, brāhmaṇa . It is not a caste; *it is a section in every human society. Always, there is a class of men very intelli . . . intelligent. They are called brāhmaṇa . So, ātma*-mātā, guroḥ patnī, brāhmaṇī, rāja-patnikā , and the queen—formerly there were kings—she is also considered mother. And dhenu means cow is mother, because we drink her milk. She supplies milk. That's mother. And pṛthvī , in the earth, we are coming out. So earth is mother. Really we see coming. And there may be different varieties of sons. That doesn't matter. But anything coming out the earth—the earth is mother—and that is coming out, that is son. Then where is the father? There must be father. Is it possible mother can give birth to a child without father? Mm. Is it possible? I wouldn't think so. Eh? I wouldn't think so. No. *So, there must be father. This is conclusion. So who is searching about the father? The answer is in the Bhagavad*-gītā : ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4), "I am father." You cannot deny father, that is not possible. If there is mother, if there is child, there must be father. This is human sense. And animal sense is, "I don't care for father. There may be father, may not be . . ." That is animal sense. So do you want to keep the human society in such ignorance, just like cats and dogs? The dogs do not care who is father. This movement wants to give education to the human society, "Yes, there is father." And that is actual fact. Without father, how there is child? Is it possible? Then? For the present moment, the human society is child playing on the lap of mother, that's all. In big, big motorcars, that's all. Without any knowledge of father. But will the human being remain simply satisfied with toys on the lap of mother, or you'll try to understand who is father? So we are satisfied with the toys, and playing on the lap of the mother. The motorcar is running very swiftly, head-break or neck-break speed, and they are thinking they are civilized, advanced. What is . . . "Who is your father?" "Don't know." Then "Where do you live?" Eh? Where do you . . . where do . . .? But he lives on the lap of mother, that's all. That is child. Child is satisfied on the lap of the mother, that's what I am saying. He doesn't . . . the child doesn't care, "I have to know the father." But there is father, that's a fact. That means the present civilization is childish civilization, does not care to know the father. So whether the human civilization will remain child, children? They fight amongst themselves. Children, however you can . . . "My dear children, live peacefully." So for the time being they may be. Again they will fight, they will cry. That is going on. What the United Nation has done for the last forty years? They're fighting like children or animals. So you keep . . . if you keep them as child or animal, do you think there will be peace? That is not possible. It is futile attempt, the talking of big, big words for peace. That is not possible. I think in Melbourne I, in my press interview, I said if the United Nation is working. I just came from Vancouver from the Habitat Conference. The U.N. is having a Habitat Conference in Vancouver, and believe me, it is not united. There was constant . . . there were discussions, then arguments. Sometimes there were walkouts, so many things, and they're not able to reach any conclusions. They can't agree with each other. How could they? Do you mean to say dogs simply barking, they will come to a conclusion? (chuckles) It is not possible. There is no aim, what is the actual aim of life. So this is very important movement. At least the intelligent class of men, they must understand it thoroughly. Just like there is body. There are different parts, different section of the body, but the most important section is the brain. Similarly, the important section of society means one who is fully in God consciousness. I . . . you can cut my hands, I shall live. You can cut my legs, I shall live. But if you cut my head . . . (indistinct) . . . life. So at the present moment, there are big, big scientists, big, big technologists. That's all right; that is hands and legs. But there is no brain. Therefore in one sense you can take it as dead society. So in my opinion, I like your country, America. Sometimes I call, "This is my fatherland," because these American boys, they are helping me pushing on this movement. So I am very much obliged to these boys. Now let us take it little more seriously, statewise. And if America takes it seriously, other nations will follow. As there is the United Nations Organization in America, and make a nice organization to understand God. United Nations God Consciousness. People will benefit. Do you see America getting more God consciousness? At least I see majority of my disciples are Americans. Why not expanding? Prabhupāda? Before, Richard (the reporter) asked me a question: What is the difference between our movement and, say, another religion like the Sikhs or some other religion? Don't misunderstand. It is . . . religion means a kind of faith. Just like you are Christian, I am Hindu. So you have faith in Christian religion, I have faith in Hin . . . that is another thing. But this is . . . we understand religion in a different way according to English dictionary. But real religion means the law given by God. This is the shortcut definition of religion. And if you do not know what is God, and if you do not know what is His law, then what is the meaning of religion? There is no meaning of religion. If blindly, if I have some faith in some dogmas and ritualistic ceremonies, that is not religion. Religion means the science by which you can understand God and the law of God. That is religion. It is not a kind of faith. Just like state laws: you may have faith or no faith, the state law is law; you have to obey it. Just like I have come in America. In our country the street law is "Keep to the left." So I have come to America; you say: "Keep to the right." If I say: "No, I have no faith in this. Keep to the left . . ." No, I must obey. That is law. Similarly, religion means you may have faith or no faith, but you must obey. It is a must. It is not optional. That is religion. That, I explained it many times, that character . . . (indistinct) . . . means characteristic. Just like every one of us, we are servant. So, the living entity is servant. He may have faith or no faith, he must be a servant. And if you don't become servant of God, then you become servant of dog. That is your advancement of civilization. When there is no service for God—just like here we have got service for God; there is no question of serving dog. But when we forget service of God, then automatically we become service of dog. But service . . . I am servant, that's a fact. And voluntarily keep a dog and serve him. If I have no master, then I keep a master, dog, cat. You call it by the name "pet." What is a pet? I do service, that's all. So this is our advancement of civilization. We have refused to serve God, and you voluntarily accept to serve dog. Now in India, they are also learning. (chuckles) And formerly, dog keeping, dog there was in the neighborhood, but they were not allowed to enter the room or house. Now they are keeping dogs just like the Western people keep. They are making dog show and so on, so on. Dog show. They are learning how to serve the dog. And they are giving up God. Yeah, there are a lot of people here that worship their pets. Yes. Yes. The Russians served Lenin. They are imitating. You understand people are very expert in this subject matter. They have come . . . learning everything. We can't avoid serving. No, that is not possible. That's all there is in life, is service. *Now we are sitting, so many gentlemen. He's serving some paper, he's serving some paper, and you are serving God. The service is there. Nobody can say: "No, I don't serve anyone." Is there any man? No. That is not possible. You must serve. Constitutionally, you are meant for service, either you are president of the state or this anything. That is your position. That is the beginning of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108). All living entities are eternal servant of God. And all service is the same? Eh? All service is the same. No. He says, "All service is the same." How can it be? All service is the same? Do you think . . . Everybody serves in their own way, but it's all . . . That is . . . unless you come to the service of God, it is wrong. I think he's asking, "But if it is service to God, then in God's eyes, all service to Him." Yes. Right. Yes. God, service to God means, just like you put foodstuff in the stomach, then the service, supplying energy, is distributed automatically. The eyes get service, the ears get service, the hands get service, legs get service—everything. But if you put foodstuff in the eyes, instead of giving service, you make it blind. If you put foodstuff in the ear, instead of hearing, it is blocked. Then that is ignorance. You do not know where to give service. So the knowledge, God consciousness, means to know where to give service so that the service will be automatically distributed. You pour water on the root of the tree and the energy will be distributed to the trunk, to the branches, to the twigs, to the leaves, to the flowers, everyone. But we are missing their point. This is scientific. So instead of giving service in so many ways—social, political, philosophical, cultural, this way, that way—if you simply learn how to serve God, then everything will be done. So that is our philosophy, and we are laboring for this purpose, that you understand God and give service to Him, then the whole society will be perfect, peaceful. I have no more questions. No questions about the Society. You asked earlier about our program for educating society. Are you still interested in this? This education is all explained. I think he was interested also in the techniques by which we go about educating society. We have some techniques which . . . Technical knowledge is not education. No, but I mean, as far as our books are . . . we have our techniques for educating society. Oh. Our program is to distribute the books of the *Vedas* with our spiritual master's philosophical commentaries. We already discussed a little bit before we came. *And all this subject matter, everything, sixty*-two books already. Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya! Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Interview -- June 3, 1976, Los Angeles Do you want to sit on chairs or . . .? No, this is fine. Oh, good. Indian style. How large is the newspaper? The circulation? 450,000. Half a million. Ah, Swami? What is your purpose here with your, ah . . . with the faith in seeking the growth and so on? (to Rāmeśvara) That is the purpose you can explain. The purpose of our, of our seeking the growth is so that people all over the world can become happy again. People who are suffering due to lack of knowledge about who they are and what their relationship is with God, and as a result of that ignorance, they're performing so many activities which cause them pain and misery, so that they can become happy again. Ah. How is . . . how will this be achieved? Misery . . . misery is caused due to ignorance. Do you admit or not? The more we are kept in darkness of knowledge, we suffer. What is the difference between ah . . . what is called? Developed nations and not developed nations. This America belonged to the Red Indians. And because they are not developed, their condition was developed, ah, different from the present America. They could not construct such big, big house, and big, big roads, and like that, because they are in ignorance. That is the difference. Prosperity, no prosperity; happiness, not happiness—they are ignorance and knowledge. They have . . . is it that they have confused materialism with happiness? Not material, I mean, I mean to say, happiness is knowledge. Hmm. Happiness is knowledge. Man who is in ignorance, he is suffering, and that you say material and spiritually. A person who is not in developed consciousness, he is suffering. And they commit sinful acts also. I beg your pardon? They commit sinful acts also in ignorance. That is the difference between man and animal. Animal means not developed consciousness. They . . . some of them, they say the animal has no soul. That is foolishness. Animal has soul, but the consciousness is not developed. Just like a child. Father's consciousness and the child's consciousness, different. Why it is different? The child's consciousness is not developed. Father's consciousness is developed. Because the child is talking some nonsense, you cannot say there is no soul. There is soul, but the consciousness is not developed. Do you see hope for mankind in the future? Yes. Man can be happy immediately, provided the consciousness is developed. Can . . . do you think that this will ever be achieved? Yes. It can be achieved. Just like I have sent a letter to your government asking them questions that you write on the bills, "In God We Trust." So whether you trust in God blindly or knowingly? That was my question. Suppose I trust you. So you must be trustworthy. Otherwise why shall I trust you? So this question I asked your government, "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so what kind of trust is this?" If you actually trust, then you must know that God is trustworthy. Only blindly trust as a slogan. But that letter is not in reply. So what is your opinion? "In God We Trust," so how do trust? Why you trust? This is my question. It would be a matter of faith, I suppose. Eh? It would be a matter of faith, I suppose. Faith may be different. You may have faith, I may not have faith. That is not the question. Just like in the bank you deposit some money. If some may have faith or no faith, but that bank is trustworthy. You know that your money deposited in the bank will not be cheated. Similarly, if you trust in God, then you must know whether God is trustworthy. Whether . . . what do you mean by God? This is not the question of faith. Faith is blind. It is a question of understanding. So that we want, that America specially—you are favored amongst all other nations; *you are well*-to-do, richer than other nations—so why don't you take God seriously? Why should you trust in God as faith? No. You understand what is God and have your faith at full that, "God is, yes, trustworthy," so that others may also know that God is trustworthy. That is our mission, that why God in trust? Are we trusting God should be a slogan? Let it be a fact by scientific study, by scientific understanding. There is way to understand why God is trustworthy. It's not the question of faith. It is a fact. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just like a child had . . . has faith in his parents. So that is not an artificial thing. That is fact. And parents are trustworthy to the child—there is no doubt about it—by nature. So similarly, why could . . . you should be trust in God? Why blindly? Why not trust with knowledge? And that is our movement. Every civilized person has got some faith in God. But now they're advanced, they should understand what is God, why you must have faith in Him. That is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It's a matter of educating . . . Simply faith, blind faith, will not endure. And therefore they are becoming godless. And gradually, if we do not understand factually what is God, then the whole human civilization will be godless. To become godless means again animal. That is the difference between animal and man. In the animal society there is no question of religion, faith, God. These things are not there. The human civilization, if it becomes like that, without any faith in God, without any understanding of God, then where is the difference between cats and dogs and human beings? They must know God scientifically. That is the actual aim of human life. Suppose the dog is sleeping on the street without any care whether a car is coming and smash it. He's also sleeping sound sleep. And we are sleeping in a very nice apartment. So after all, sleeping. And he is also enjoying sleeping, I am also enjoying sleeping. So do you think to change the, I mean to say, circumstances of the sleeping? I am sleeping in a very nice apartment, he's sleeping on the floor. Does it mean this is advancement of civilization? Sleeping is sleeping. Eating is eating. Sex life—the male dog enjoying with female dog, the sex pleasure is to him, and we are enjoying with a beautiful lover. The sex pleasure is the same. Therefore, you take some eatable, either on gold fork, or in iron fork, the taste is the same. Simply like putting the foodstuff in the golden fork, does it mean the taste has changed? So, the taste of eating, sleeping, mating and defending is the same for the human being as well as the animals. The difference . . . what is the difference between the animals and the human? The animal cannot know God. That is not possible. The human being can know. That is the opportunity of this human life. If we are missing that opportunity, then we are leading an animal civilization. This is not civilization. Animal life is not civilization. Civilized means not animal life. Something more than that. That is God consciousness. Do you have programs developed to educate mankind towards this God consciousness? Yes. Concrete education. Not fictitious. Concrete. How will . . . how will you get man to become aware of the situation so he could desire—even desire unconsciously? *It is a very simple fact. If you simply understand that one verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā , there it is stated that: Very simple thing. Just like the art of the material nature. Everything is coming out of the material nature, beginning from the grass to the highest intellectual human being or more than that. Wherefrom they are coming? From this material nature, either earth, water, fire, this element, some material nature. Let us see from the ground, the grass is coming, the vegetable is coming. From the water the fishes are coming, all the ants are coming, the germs are coming. Then, after eating that vegetable, the animals are coming. In this way everything is coming, generated from the earth, from the material nature. Is it not a fact? Mmm. So, we are coming from material nature. That means we are . . . material nature is our mother. From the womb of mother, the child comes from. So from the material nature everything is coming. Therefore according to Vedic knowledge, this earth is also mother. We have got seven mothers according to Vedic civilization: *Ātma*-mātā means original mother, real mother. And guroḥ patnī , the wife of teacher. The wife of a brāhmaṇa . . . brāhmaṇa means the most intellectual class of men in the human society, brāhmaṇa . It is not a caste; *it is a section in every human society. Always, there is a class of men very intelli . . . intelligent. They are called brāhmaṇa . So, ātma*-mātā, guroḥ patnī, brāhmaṇī, rāja-patnikā , and the queen—formerly there were kings—she is also considered mother. And dhenu means cow is mother, because we drink her milk. She supplies milk. That's mother. And pṛthvī , in the earth, we are coming out. So earth is mother. Really we see coming. And there may be different varieties of sons. That doesn't matter. But anything coming out the earth—the earth is mother—and that is coming out, that is son. Then where is the father? There must be father. Is it possible mother can give birth to a child without father? Mm. Is it possible? I wouldn't think so. Eh? I wouldn't think so. No. *So, there must be father. This is conclusion. So who is searching about the father? The answer is in the Bhagavad*-gītā : ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4), "I am father." You cannot deny father, that is not possible. If there is mother, if there is child, there must be father. This is human sense. And animal sense is, "I don't care for father. There may be father, may not be . . ." That is animal sense. So do you want to keep the human society in such ignorance, just like cats and dogs? The dogs do not care who is father. This movement wants to give education to the human society, "Yes, there is father." And that is actual fact. Without father, how there is child? Is it possible? Then? For the present moment, the human society is child playing on the lap of mother, that's all. In big, big motorcars, that's all. Without any knowledge of father. But will the human being remain simply satisfied with toys on the lap of mother, or you'll try to understand who is father? So we are satisfied with the toys, and playing on the lap of the mother. The motorcar is running very swiftly, head-break or neck-break speed, and they are thinking they are civilized, advanced. What is . . . "Who is your father?" "Don't know." Then "Where do you live?" Eh? Where do you . . . where do . . .? But he lives on the lap of mother, that's all. That is child. Child is satisfied on the lap of the mother, that's what I am saying. He doesn't . . . the child doesn't care, "I have to know the father." But there is father, that's a fact. That means the present civilization is childish civilization, does not care to know the father. So whether the human civilization will remain child, children? They fight amongst themselves. Children, however you can . . . "My dear children, live peacefully." So for the time being they may be. Again they will fight, they will cry. That is going on. What the United Nation has done for the last forty years? They're fighting like children or animals. So you keep . . . if you keep them as child or animal, do you think there will be peace? That is not possible. It is futile attempt, the talking of big, big words for peace. That is not possible. I think in Melbourne I, in my press interview, I said if the United Nation is working. I just came from Vancouver from the Habitat Conference. The U.N. is having a Habitat Conference in Vancouver, and believe me, it is not united. There was constant . . . there were discussions, then arguments. Sometimes there were walkouts, so many things, and they're not able to reach any conclusions. They can't agree with each other. How could they? Do you mean to say dogs simply barking, they will come to a conclusion? (chuckles) It is not possible. There is no aim, what is the actual aim of life. So this is very important movement. At least the intelligent class of men, they must understand it thoroughly. Just like there is body. There are different parts, different section of the body, but the most important section is the brain. Similarly, the important section of society means one who is fully in God consciousness. I . . . you can cut my hands, I shall live. You can cut my legs, I shall live. But if you cut my head . . . (indistinct) . . . life. So at the present moment, there are big, big scientists, big, big technologists. That's all right; that is hands and legs. But there is no brain. Therefore in one sense you can take it as dead society. So in my opinion, I like your country, America. Sometimes I call, "This is my fatherland," because these American boys, they are helping me pushing on this movement. So I am very much obliged to these boys. Now let us take it little more seriously, statewise. And if America takes it seriously, other nations will follow. As there is the United Nations Organization in America, and make a nice organization to understand God. United Nations God Consciousness. People will benefit. Do you see America getting more God consciousness? At least I see majority of my disciples are Americans. Why not expanding? Prabhupāda? Before, Richard (the reporter) asked me a question: What is the difference between our movement and, say, another religion like the Sikhs or some other religion? Don't misunderstand. It is . . . religion means a kind of faith. Just like you are Christian, I am Hindu. So you have faith in Christian religion, I have faith in Hin . . . that is another thing. But this is . . . we understand religion in a different way according to English dictionary. But real religion means the law given by God. This is the shortcut definition of religion. And if you do not know what is God, and if you do not know what is His law, then what is the meaning of religion? There is no meaning of religion. If blindly, if I have some faith in some dogmas and ritualistic ceremonies, that is not religion. Religion means the science by which you can understand God and the law of God. That is religion. It is not a kind of faith. Just like state laws: you may have faith or no faith, the state law is law; you have to obey it. Just like I have come in America. In our country the street law is "Keep to the left." So I have come to America; you say: "Keep to the right." If I say: "No, I have no faith in this. Keep to the left . . ." No, I must obey. That is law. Similarly, religion means you may have faith or no faith, but you must obey. It is a must. It is not optional. That is religion. That, I explained it many times, that character . . . (indistinct) . . . means characteristic. Just like every one of us, we are servant. So, the living entity is servant. He may have faith or no faith, he must be a servant. And if you don't become servant of God, then you become servant of dog. That is your advancement of civilization. When there is no service for God—just like here we have got service for God; there is no question of serving dog. But when we forget service of God, then automatically we become service of dog. But service . . . I am servant, that's a fact. And voluntarily keep a dog and serve him. If I have no master, then I keep a master, dog, cat. You call it by the name "pet." What is a pet? I do service, that's all. So this is our advancement of civilization. We have refused to serve God, and you voluntarily accept to serve dog. Now in India, they are also learning. (chuckles) And formerly, dog keeping, dog there was in the neighborhood, but they were not allowed to enter the room or house. Now they are keeping dogs just like the Western people keep. They are making dog show and so on, so on. Dog show. They are learning how to serve the dog. And they are giving up God. Yeah, there are a lot of people here that worship their pets. Yes. Yes. The Russians served Lenin. They are imitating. You understand people are very expert in this subject matter. They have come . . . learning everything. We can't avoid serving. No, that is not possible. That's all there is in life, is service. *Now we are sitting, so many gentlemen. He's serving some paper, he's serving some paper, and you are serving God. The service is there. Nobody can say: "No, I don't serve anyone." Is there any man? No. That is not possible. You must serve. Constitutionally, you are meant for service, either you are president of the state or this anything. That is your position. That is the beginning of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108). All living entities are eternal servant of God. And all service is the same? Eh? All service is the same. No. He says, "All service is the same." How can it be? All service is the same? Do you think . . . Everybody serves in their own way, but it's all . . . That is . . . unless you come to the service of God, it is wrong. I think he's asking, "But if it is service to God, then in God's eyes, all service to Him." Yes. Right. Yes. God, service to God means, just like you put foodstuff in the stomach, then the service, supplying energy, is distributed automatically. The eyes get service, the ears get service, the hands get service, legs get service—everything. But if you put foodstuff in the eyes, instead of giving service, you make it blind. If you put foodstuff in the ear, instead of hearing, it is blocked. Then that is ignorance. You do not know where to give service. So the knowledge, God consciousness, means to know where to give service so that the service will be automatically distributed. You pour water on the root of the tree and the energy will be distributed to the trunk, to the branches, to the twigs, to the leaves, to the flowers, everyone. But we are missing their point. This is scientific. So instead of giving service in so many ways—social, political, philosophical, cultural, this way, that way—if you simply learn how to serve God, then everything will be done. So that is our philosophy, and we are laboring for this purpose, that you understand God and give service to Him, then the whole society will be perfect, peaceful. I have no more questions. No questions about the Society. You asked earlier about our program for educating society. Are you still interested in this? This education is all explained. I think he was interested also in the techniques by which we go about educating society. We have some techniques which . . . Technical knowledge is not education. No, but I mean, as far as our books are . . . we have our techniques for educating society. Oh. Our program is to distribute the books of the *Vedas* with our spiritual master's philosophical commentaries. We already discussed a little bit before we came. *And all this subject matter, everything, sixty*-two books already. Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya! Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Interview -- June 4, 1976, Los Angeles I wonder if you can tell me a little bit about your routine. I understand that you only sleep about two or three hours a day. And do you usually sleep during the middle of the daytime as well? Yes. Daytime I sleep two hours, and night also two hours. Ah! Two hours at night also. Hmm. Does it . . .? Is it more difficult to do this when you're traveling a lot? No. I . . . my work is going on. By traveling also, I carry this machine, Dictate . . . dictaphone. I dictate, and then my assistants, they write, transcribe, and then it is . . . it goes to the Press. In this way my work is going on. (sounds coming from outside) I'd like to ask one . . . is your role in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the United States particularly or worldwide? Ten years ago, when you first came to the United States, did you take a very active role in the organization, and I'm wondering whether you do much of that now? No, although the volume of work has incr . . . (break) . . . a hundred times, but these American disciples, they are helping me, so I haven't got to work personally so much. I simply give the instruction and they carry out. But the work has increased voluminously, there's no doubt about it. I came here alone in 1965 without any help practically. Where to live, where to sleep, there was no destination. Sometimes some friend's house, sometimes some friend's house, practically loitering on the street. And in this way were passed more than one year. I arrived here in 1965 in September, end of September, 17th of September, in Boston. Hmm. Is it Boston? Yes, Prabhupāda. Yes. Then, in Boston, I stayed on the sea, on the only, but I saw the Boston city. Then I was brought to New York. So I had one friend in Butler, Pennsylvania. Hmm. After my arrival, I was received by some representative of my host. So he took me to Butler, and there I stayed for twenty days. Then I came to New York. (break) . . . one introductory letter to one Dr. Mishra. So that is the beginning of my life in New York. Then struggling. Then gradually, when these boys came to me, I got some relief. And in this way we are propagating, opening branches, and the movement is going forward. Are there many decisions that people ask you to make, about whether the movement should do this, or should do that, or do they bother you of that now, or are you just busy writing and translating? *No, we do not accept any—what is called?—defective suggestion. We do not accept. We have got our program. This program is coming directly from Kṛṣṇa. The Bhagavad*-gītā is there. Okay. So we are simply giving a practical set of the instruction of *Gītā* . This is our business. We don't manufacture any imaginative thing. His idea . . . his question, Prabhupāda, is also, suppose someone wants to buy a farm or wants to do some new project. Do they ask your permission first? Yes. The whole Society is going on under my direction. Whatever they do, they take my permission and they put into action. Nothing is allowed without my permission. *I wonder if you might have any opinions on some of the leaders of cults and groups in the United States, such as the Divine Light Mission, or the T.M. and so forth. I'm wondering if you have any opinions on Guru Maharaj*-ji or Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. *There are different groups. I know that. But I do not go in detail to understand them. But our . . . we have got a crucial test, that anyone who is . . . does not know about Kṛṣṇa, he is put into four different types of categories, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . One category is that he is sinful. Another category is that he is rascal. Another category is that he's lowest of the mankind. And another category is that his so-called knowledge is taken away by illusory energy. So this is our test. That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā , that: Anyone who is not talking about God, he is either of these group: sinful, rascal, lowest of the mankind, and knowledge taken away by illusion. This is our conclusion, and that's a fact. Because a person who does not know about God, what he is? He is animal. The animal has no knowledge about God. But a human being, if he poses himself to be very learned, then he must have knowledge about God; otherwise what is his knowledge? Do you have any opinion about Ted Patrick, who I guess you've probably heard of? I, I do not care to read these persons. But I have no business, because we are strictly following Kṛṣṇa. Our signboard is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So anyone who does not know anything about Kṛṣṇa, we reject him immediately. That's all. Simple business. Is the only way to know Kṛṣṇa through the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Yes. Certainly. If you want to know me, then you must know about me from me. You can not speculate about me. If you speculate that, "Swāmījī is so rich," or "Swāmī might have so much bank balance also," or "He may be so . . ." This is all speculation. But when I say that my bank balance is such and such, that is right knowledge. I didn't understand you. That suppose if you are speculating what may be the Swāmījī's strength of bank balance. So how you can know it by speculation? But if I say that my bank balance is such and such, than you can understand what is bank balance. So by speculative knowledge you cannot understand God. When God says what He is, then you can understand. Do you feel also that if someone read the Bhagava . . .? I can't pronounce it . . . *Bhagavad*-gītā . *. . . Bhagavad*-gītā and other books, that a person merely by reading these could attain knowledge of Kṛṣṇa? Yes. Why not? Would that person have to have contact with you and learn from you also? Yes, it is explained; *there is no difficulty. But if there is difficulty to understand, then we have to approach a person who has understood Bhagavad*-gītā . Otherwise the language is very plain; there is no difficulty. Unfortunately, they bring their own interpretation and spoil the whole thing. Um . . . *Otherwise where is the difficulty? Just like the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: *The beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā is the battlefield, and the battlefield is called Kurukṣetra. So Kurukṣetra is still there in India, but these so-called learned scholars, politicians, they're squeezing out some meaning out of Kurukṣetra. What is the necessity? Kurukṣetra is a place where actually, historically the battle took place. (Reporter changes cassette of tape recorder) (break) . . . culture Yes. Attentive. You don't see any slowing down of the impact of . . . No. It can be slowed down unless we spoil it. Is there anyone who is designated to succeed you as the primary teacher of the movement? I am training some, I mean to say, advanced students so that they may be very easily take up the charge. I have made them GBC. They are under my direct training, and I think they will be able to conduct this movement. Do you expect to name one person as your successor, or have you already? That I am not contemplating now. But there is no need of one person. As other things are managed, but by committee, so this can also be managed, and the committee may elect one person as chief. As, just like in the democracy there are senators and there is president, so it may be I may nominate or they can nominate. Do you feel are you in good health now? You look it. Yes. After all, of course I am eighty, eighty years old. And I complete eighty years next September. So the age is there, although I am feeling not aged by . . . the effect of age must be there. I didn't understand that. He says although . . . Prabhupāda says although he's not feeling aged, the effect of age is there. When I interviewed you perhaps five or six years ago, it was before there were reports of the astronauts landing on the moon, and I asked you at that time if you thought . . . what you thought about it, and you said that, as I recall, that they would not be able to land or explore, because spirits or creatures that lived on the moon would not allow it. The reports of course said that indeed people did land and explore and return safely. I understand you have further thoughts about that (laughter) and you've even written a lot about it. I wonder if you could tell me, not at great length perhaps, but what your belief about those events is. *Yes. From the . . . that question I was discussing the other day. In the common sense, question, that all over the world, they accept Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, in this way Saturday last. So why these arrangement, Sunday first and Monday second? And nobody could reply it. But as a layman I can conclude that sun planet is first and the moon planet is next. So if you cannot go to the sun planet, which is ninety*-three million miles away, how you can go to the moon planet within four days? Nobody could answer me. Can you answer? Well, I don't think it's worth the answer now, but I'm wondering what your response is. *But this is the arrangement all over the world. Sunday first, Monday second, then Tuesday. So sun, moon, Mars, Jupiter, in this way. Last Saturn. This is the arrangement of the planets. So if this is the arrangement of the planets, moon*-day next to . . . moon next to sun, and if you cannot go to the sun, how can you go to the moon? Do you, in other words, do you believe that astronauts landed somewhere? *That is next question. First of all, whether you actually went to the moon, that is the first question. You have to conclude that you did not, because the sun planet is first, the moon planet is second. You cannot go to the sun planet, ninety*-three millions of miles, how can you go to the moon planet? Well, except that . . . According to our śāstra , the moon planet is above the sun planet, and the distance is 1,600,000 miles. So accepting that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away, then you add another 1,600,000, almost 2,000,000, it becomes 15,000,000 miles away. So if you go at the speed of 18,000 miles per hour, it takes more than 6 months. So how you go there in 4 days? And you advertise in the paper: "Now they have reached," after 4 days. They don't accept that the moon is further away. They don't accept, that is another thing, but we have got this information. How we can accept it? I didn't understand that last. I said to Prabhupāda that the modern man believes that the moon is closer, but Prabhupāda said: "But our ancient literatures teach that the moon is further away. So since we have that information, how can we accept the version of the modern scientists?" Hmm. Hmm. We've got . . . Not only that. Why this arrangement that Monday and . . . Sunday first, Monday second? Well, that doesn't necessarily speak of distance. Hmm? It doesn't necessarily speak of distance. That . . . distance may not be, but you have to accept the sun planet first, moon planet next. Er . . . Distance is not the question. Okay. Why this arrangement: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday? There is some system. The system is, just like first, second, third, fourth. So it is naturally concluded the moon planet is next to the sun planet. Do you feel—maybe you answered this, but I didn't understand the answer—do you feel that astronauts did land somewhere, but it was some other planet? That may be. Or it may not be also. What about that sometimes people ask us what about the pictures of man on the moon? They show man in a spacesuit walking on some other planet. That is also, what is called, argumentative. Somebody says it is laboratory arrangement. Hmm. Laboratory. Of course, we do not go into the details of this. My question is that why Sunday first and Monday second? Nobody can apli . . . replies. Prabhupāda once also argued that the dust, the dirt that they brought back, it did not reflect any light, but the moon is always reflecting light. So it was a different substance than what must be on the moon surface. Now, according to our Vedic scripture, moon is one of the heavenly planets. Are there any other Vedic scriptures that you believe speak to a situation that is greatly misunderstood today besides this? No. Vedic understanding means there is no different Vedic version. But do people . . . say another example where what you hold is very different from what the rest of society holds, is there something else that would be . . . No. Why . . . No, he means, Prabhupāda, that just like modern man is thinking that they went to the moon, and our Vedic scripture says they didn't, so he's asking are there any other controversies, just like reincarnation, transmigration . . . No, so far Vedic students are concerned, there are no controversies. But from what the modern man believes there may be some differences. Modern man believes, that's all right, but . . . That's what his question is. *Our, our basic knowledge is on the Vedic principle, that whatever . . . just like we are explaining now, veda*-vihito dharmaḥ . We have to understand everything from the Vedas , from this Vedic knowledge. So anything which does not speak accor . . . in terms of the Vedic formula, we do not accept such knowledge as valid. Okay. But practically you are seeing that. But . . . Would you accept conclusions from science that . . . only if it agreed with the Vedic scriptures? First of all is that . . . as you say science, what do you mean by science? Can you explain? Well, what the . . . the best conclusions of the best people in science. Yes. That's all right, but what is the best conclusion? Well, rely on their opinions. That is opinion. The opinion is changing. How you can rely? That is not fixed up. So what is this opinion? What is the value of this opinion? Well . . . You give some opinion, and after some years you change it. So what is the . . . how can I rely on your opinion? Would Darwin's theory of evolution and other evolutionary theories . . . Whatever it may be, if it is being changed every year or every ten years, then what is the value of this opinion? There is no value. Well, but religious thought in India has changed over the years too. No. Nothing. We do not change. Just like your Bhagav . . . Well, others . . . Bhagav . . . Others change. *Ah, others may deviate, that is another thing. But the system is not that. You cannot deviate from the Vedic injunction, that if you have to follow the ācāryas , just like India is obeying. The mass population or the sane population, they are following the ācāryas . ācāryas means great teachers, bona fide teachers—perhaps you have heard their name—just like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. So they are followed, and they are of the same opinion. Millions of years ago, what was the opinion, and that opinion is still there. Ācchā , take for Bhagavad*-gītā . And that is . . . not a single Indian who does not accept Bhagavad-gītā as authority. This is besides the foreigners who also take interest so much in Bhagavad-gītā . So far Indians are concerned, even some of the Muhammadans. So apart from Muhammadans, those who are claiming as Hindu, they all accept the authority of Bhagavad-gītā . So this Bhagavad-gītā , they might have changed, but that is not acceptable. I think I covered most questions that I wanted to in the interview. Did you say that somebody would be transcribing? Yes, I'm going to arrange to have it transcribed. Because there are a lot of things that I couldn't catch, just because I'm not atuned to hearing you, so a lot of words I did not understand. But . . . I'll arrange for that. Okay. You'll get it tomorrow. Oh, I enjoyed it very much. Thank you. Thank you. (break) Just like there is this one point that the scientists say something which everyone in the world believes, but you are saying something different. So he was very interested . . . No. I . . . I . . . Well the Vedic scriptures say that. Yes, the Vedic scriptures . . . Yes. . . . say something different. The thing is, that is practical. That scientifics statement given today, and after few days it is changed. Yes. Then if I say: "What is the value of such statement if you change it?" That is my point. And so far Vedic injunctions are there, you don't change. What was given millions of years ago, that we carry. Thank you very much. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Interview -- June 4, 1976, Los Angeles I wonder if you can tell me a little bit about your routine. I understand that you only sleep about two or three hours a day. And do you usually sleep during the middle of the daytime as well? Yes. Daytime I sleep two hours, and night also two hours. Ah! Two hours at night also. Hmm. Does it . . .? Is it more difficult to do this when you're traveling a lot? No. I . . . my work is going on. By traveling also, I carry this machine, Dictate . . . dictaphone. I dictate, and then my assistants, they write, transcribe, and then it is . . . it goes to the Press. In this way my work is going on. (sounds coming from outside) I'd like to ask one . . . is your role in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the United States particularly or worldwide? Ten years ago, when you first came to the United States, did you take a very active role in the organization, and I'm wondering whether you do much of that now? No, although the volume of work has incr . . . (break) . . . a hundred times, but these American disciples, they are helping me, so I haven't got to work personally so much. I simply give the instruction and they carry out. But the work has increased voluminously, there's no doubt about it. I came here alone in 1965 without any help practically. Where to live, where to sleep, there was no destination. Sometimes some friend's house, sometimes some friend's house, practically loitering on the street. And in this way were passed more than one year. I arrived here in 1965 in September, end of September, 17th of September, in Boston. Hmm. Is it Boston? Yes, Prabhupāda. Yes. Then, in Boston, I stayed on the sea, on the only, but I saw the Boston city. Then I was brought to New York. So I had one friend in Butler, Pennsylvania. Hmm. After my arrival, I was received by some representative of my host. So he took me to Butler, and there I stayed for twenty days. Then I came to New York. (break) . . . one introductory letter to one Dr. Mishra. So that is the beginning of my life in New York. Then struggling. Then gradually, when these boys came to me, I got some relief. And in this way we are propagating, opening branches, and the movement is going forward. Are there many decisions that people ask you to make, about whether the movement should do this, or should do that, or do they bother you of that now, or are you just busy writing and translating? *No, we do not accept any—what is called?—defective suggestion. We do not accept. We have got our program. This program is coming directly from Kṛṣṇa. The Bhagavad*-gītā is there. Okay. So we are simply giving a practical set of the instruction of *Gītā* . This is our business. We don't manufacture any imaginative thing. His idea . . . his question, Prabhupāda, is also, suppose someone wants to buy a farm or wants to do some new project. Do they ask your permission first? Yes. The whole Society is going on under my direction. Whatever they do, they take my permission and they put into action. Nothing is allowed without my permission. *I wonder if you might have any opinions on some of the leaders of cults and groups in the United States, such as the Divine Light Mission, or the T.M. and so forth. I'm wondering if you have any opinions on Guru Maharaj*-ji or Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. *There are different groups. I know that. But I do not go in detail to understand them. But our . . . we have got a crucial test, that anyone who is . . . does not know about Kṛṣṇa, he is put into four different types of categories, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . One category is that he is sinful. Another category is that he is rascal. Another category is that he's lowest of the mankind. And another category is that his so-called knowledge is taken away by illusory energy. So this is our test. That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā , that: Anyone who is not talking about God, he is either of these group: sinful, rascal, lowest of the mankind, and knowledge taken away by illusion. This is our conclusion, and that's a fact. Because a person who does not know about God, what he is? He is animal. The animal has no knowledge about God. But a human being, if he poses himself to be very learned, then he must have knowledge about God; otherwise what is his knowledge? Do you have any opinion about Ted Patrick, who I guess you've probably heard of? I, I do not care to read these persons. But I have no business, because we are strictly following Kṛṣṇa. Our signboard is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So anyone who does not know anything about Kṛṣṇa, we reject him immediately. That's all. Simple business. Is the only way to know Kṛṣṇa through the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Yes. Certainly. If you want to know me, then you must know about me from me. You can not speculate about me. If you speculate that, "Swāmījī is so rich," or "Swāmī might have so much bank balance also," or "He may be so . . ." This is all speculation. But when I say that my bank balance is such and such, that is right knowledge. I didn't understand you. That suppose if you are speculating what may be the Swāmījī's strength of bank balance. So how you can know it by speculation? But if I say that my bank balance is such and such, than you can understand what is bank balance. So by speculative knowledge you cannot understand God. When God says what He is, then you can understand. Do you feel also that if someone read the Bhagava . . .? I can't pronounce it . . . *Bhagavad*-gītā . *. . . Bhagavad*-gītā and other books, that a person merely by reading these could attain knowledge of Kṛṣṇa? Yes. Why not? Would that person have to have contact with you and learn from you also? Yes, it is explained; *there is no difficulty. But if there is difficulty to understand, then we have to approach a person who has understood Bhagavad*-gītā . Otherwise the language is very plain; there is no difficulty. Unfortunately, they bring their own interpretation and spoil the whole thing. Um . . . *Otherwise where is the difficulty? Just like the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: *The beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā is the battlefield, and the battlefield is called Kurukṣetra. So Kurukṣetra is still there in India, but these so-called learned scholars, politicians, they're squeezing out some meaning out of Kurukṣetra. What is the necessity? Kurukṣetra is a place where actually, historically the battle took place. (Reporter changes cassette of tape recorder) (break) . . . culture Yes. Attentive. You don't see any slowing down of the impact of . . . No. It can be slowed down unless we spoil it. Is there anyone who is designated to succeed you as the primary teacher of the movement? I am training some, I mean to say, advanced students so that they may be very easily take up the charge. I have made them GBC. They are under my direct training, and I think they will be able to conduct this movement. Do you expect to name one person as your successor, or have you already? That I am not contemplating now. But there is no need of one person. As other things are managed, but by committee, so this can also be managed, and the committee may elect one person as chief. As, just like in the democracy there are senators and there is president, so it may be I may nominate or they can nominate. Do you feel are you in good health now? You look it. Yes. After all, of course I am eighty, eighty years old. And I complete eighty years next September. So the age is there, although I am feeling not aged by . . . the effect of age must be there. I didn't understand that. He says although . . . Prabhupāda says although he's not feeling aged, the effect of age is there. When I interviewed you perhaps five or six years ago, it was before there were reports of the astronauts landing on the moon, and I asked you at that time if you thought . . . what you thought about it, and you said that, as I recall, that they would not be able to land or explore, because spirits or creatures that lived on the moon would not allow it. The reports of course said that indeed people did land and explore and return safely. I understand you have further thoughts about that (laughter) and you've even written a lot about it. I wonder if you could tell me, not at great length perhaps, but what your belief about those events is. *Yes. From the . . . that question I was discussing the other day. In the common sense, question, that all over the world, they accept Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, in this way Saturday last. So why these arrangement, Sunday first and Monday second? And nobody could reply it. But as a layman I can conclude that sun planet is first and the moon planet is next. So if you cannot go to the sun planet, which is ninety*-three million miles away, how you can go to the moon planet within four days? Nobody could answer me. Can you answer? Well, I don't think it's worth the answer now, but I'm wondering what your response is. *But this is the arrangement all over the world. Sunday first, Monday second, then Tuesday. So sun, moon, Mars, Jupiter, in this way. Last Saturn. This is the arrangement of the planets. So if this is the arrangement of the planets, moon*-day next to . . . moon next to sun, and if you cannot go to the sun, how can you go to the moon? Do you, in other words, do you believe that astronauts landed somewhere? *That is next question. First of all, whether you actually went to the moon, that is the first question. You have to conclude that you did not, because the sun planet is first, the moon planet is second. You cannot go to the sun planet, ninety*-three millions of miles, how can you go to the moon planet? Well, except that . . . According to our śāstra , the moon planet is above the sun planet, and the distance is 1,600,000 miles. So accepting that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away, then you add another 1,600,000, almost 2,000,000, it becomes 15,000,000 miles away. So if you go at the speed of 18,000 miles per hour, it takes more than 6 months. So how you go there in 4 days? And you advertise in the paper: "Now they have reached," after 4 days. They don't accept that the moon is further away. They don't accept, that is another thing, but we have got this information. How we can accept it? I didn't understand that last. I said to Prabhupāda that the modern man believes that the moon is closer, but Prabhupāda said: "But our ancient literatures teach that the moon is further away. So since we have that information, how can we accept the version of the modern scientists?" Hmm. Hmm. We've got . . . Not only that. Why this arrangement that Monday and . . . Sunday first, Monday second? Well, that doesn't necessarily speak of distance. Hmm? It doesn't necessarily speak of distance. That . . . distance may not be, but you have to accept the sun planet first, moon planet next. Er . . . Distance is not the question. Okay. Why this arrangement: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday? There is some system. The system is, just like first, second, third, fourth. So it is naturally concluded the moon planet is next to the sun planet. Do you feel—maybe you answered this, but I didn't understand the answer—do you feel that astronauts did land somewhere, but it was some other planet? That may be. Or it may not be also. What about that sometimes people ask us what about the pictures of man on the moon? They show man in a spacesuit walking on some other planet. That is also, what is called, argumentative. Somebody says it is laboratory arrangement. Hmm. Laboratory. Of course, we do not go into the details of this. My question is that why Sunday first and Monday second? Nobody can apli . . . replies. Prabhupāda once also argued that the dust, the dirt that they brought back, it did not reflect any light, but the moon is always reflecting light. So it was a different substance than what must be on the moon surface. Now, according to our Vedic scripture, moon is one of the heavenly planets. Are there any other Vedic scriptures that you believe speak to a situation that is greatly misunderstood today besides this? No. Vedic understanding means there is no different Vedic version. But do people . . . say another example where what you hold is very different from what the rest of society holds, is there something else that would be . . . No. Why . . . No, he means, Prabhupāda, that just like modern man is thinking that they went to the moon, and our Vedic scripture says they didn't, so he's asking are there any other controversies, just like reincarnation, transmigration . . . No, so far Vedic students are concerned, there are no controversies. But from what the modern man believes there may be some differences. Modern man believes, that's all right, but . . . That's what his question is. *Our, our basic knowledge is on the Vedic principle, that whatever . . . just like we are explaining now, veda*-vihito dharmaḥ . We have to understand everything from the Vedas , from this Vedic knowledge. So anything which does not speak accor . . . in terms of the Vedic formula, we do not accept such knowledge as valid. Okay. But practically you are seeing that. But . . . Would you accept conclusions from science that . . . only if it agreed with the Vedic scriptures? First of all is that . . . as you say science, what do you mean by science? Can you explain? Well, what the . . . the best conclusions of the best people in science. Yes. That's all right, but what is the best conclusion? Well, rely on their opinions. That is opinion. The opinion is changing. How you can rely? That is not fixed up. So what is this opinion? What is the value of this opinion? Well . . . You give some opinion, and after some years you change it. So what is the . . . how can I rely on your opinion? Would Darwin's theory of evolution and other evolutionary theories . . . Whatever it may be, if it is being changed every year or every ten years, then what is the value of this opinion? There is no value. Well, but religious thought in India has changed over the years too. No. Nothing. We do not change. Just like your Bhagav . . . Well, others . . . Bhagav . . . Others change. *Ah, others may deviate, that is another thing. But the system is not that. You cannot deviate from the Vedic injunction, that if you have to follow the ācāryas , just like India is obeying. The mass population or the sane population, they are following the ācāryas . ācāryas means great teachers, bona fide teachers—perhaps you have heard their name—just like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. So they are followed, and they are of the same opinion. Millions of years ago, what was the opinion, and that opinion is still there. Ācchā , take for Bhagavad*-gītā . And that is . . . not a single Indian who does not accept Bhagavad-gītā as authority. This is besides the foreigners who also take interest so much in Bhagavad-gītā . So far Indians are concerned, even some of the Muhammadans. So apart from Muhammadans, those who are claiming as Hindu, they all accept the authority of Bhagavad-gītā . So this Bhagavad-gītā , they might have changed, but that is not acceptable. I think I covered most questions that I wanted to in the interview. Did you say that somebody would be transcribing? Yes, I'm going to arrange to have it transcribed. Because there are a lot of things that I couldn't catch, just because I'm not atuned to hearing you, so a lot of words I did not understand. But . . . I'll arrange for that. Okay. You'll get it tomorrow. Oh, I enjoyed it very much. Thank you. Thank you. (break) Just like there is this one point that the scientists say something which everyone in the world believes, but you are saying something different. So he was very interested . . . No. I . . . I . . . Well the Vedic scriptures say that. Yes, the Vedic scriptures . . . Yes. . . . say something different. The thing is, that is practical. That scientifics statement given today, and after few days it is changed. Yes. Then if I say: "What is the value of such statement if you change it?" That is my point. And so far Vedic injunctions are there, you don't change. What was given millions of years ago, that we carry. Thank you very much. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- June 6, 1976, Los Angeles . . . just like you are also following the instructions, spiritual instructions. So we see those disciples who observe these four regulative principles, they become . . . (indistinct) . . . according to the advice from the brāhmaṇas . It is very good, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas ( BG 3.21). If the leaders of the society accept something, then the followers, they also accept. So that brainwork must be there. Just like in the whole body, the brain is the most important part. If one of your arms is cut off, you do not die; but if the head is cut off, you will die. So the brāhmaṇa community of the society must be maintained, otherwise who will guide? Without brain, who will guide the arms and the legs and the head? So at the present moment that is lacking. The brain society is practically nil, and they are not eager to establish or to educate a section of people to become perfect brāhmin . There is no such arrangement. There is engineering college, medical college—so many different departments are there, educational institutions—but there is no institution throughout the whole world how to train a class of men to become perfect brāhmaṇas , or intelligent class. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are just trying to set up a section of the people to become very, very intelligent. And who is very, very intelligent? One who knows God. He is intelligent. That is the end of knowledge. As any educational program it has got an end, so we are getting knowledge in so many ways, but end of knowledge is to know God. That is called Vedānta . Vedā means "knowledge"; anta means "end." Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). That is the end of knowledge. Simply by knowing God, you know everything. So that knowledge is lacking and being covered. So we are trying to give this knowledge to human society. Anyone helps this movement, he also becomes recognized by God. (indistinct aside to devotee about light) Therefore they have got Vedic process. Brain must be maintained. Just like if somebody is coming to attack you, you first of all try to protect your brain, head. Is it not? And his hands, not his legs. So the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. Brāhmaṇa is the brain, and the hands are the kṣatriyas . The brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya , and everyone is maintained by food, digestion—that is belly. Unless you digest nicely, then the brain will not act, and legs . . . hands will not act. And then the legs, śūdras ? All of them required. They have got different functions. That is scientific division of human society. Somebody must work as brain, somebody works as hand, somebody works as belly, and somebody must work as legs. That is complete body. So other things are taken care of, but the government, the . . . (indistinct) . . . they are neglectful about this brain, brāhmaṇa . That is the defect of modern civilization. Therefore the human society is in more or less chaotic condition. There are so many educated leaders, so many universities, but still the society is not working. They are trying to adjust things in the United Nations. That is also not doing, because there is no brain, no brāhmaṇa . That is a fact. They do not know how to act. Everybody is whimsically saying something: "I think," "I believe." "You believe," "I believe," "He believes." Everyone believes. Who we should accept? What is the standard? From the present civilization everyone is coming forward: "I believe." You believe; I also believe. You don't accept my belief; I don't accept your belief. Finished. Whole adjustment is wrong. So there must be standard belief. If everyone puts forward his own belief, then which one will be the standard? So we are taking the Kṛṣṇa's instructions as standard. And that is the fact. There must be something standard. In the society, in such condition that "I believe," "You believe," "He believes," what is the standard? Chaos. Yes. That is the present condition. They are manufacturing their own ideas. They cannot accept the standard idea. If the whole human society in the United Nations passes a resolution that "The standard ideas advocated by the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we shall accept," immediately all problems solved. That is a fact. *Prabhupāda, we have very strict standards. There is no second chance. We have a no smoking, no drinking, no drugs or anything. Just one offence, they are released for a lifetime—they can never return. So it's a very strict standard. We are the only corporate structure in North America. We have a very intelligent lawyer to put it into corporate rules, because sometimes people say that it is taking away their freedom of choice. After working hours you can have it legally on your papers that they cannot drink while working, but we have it even while on off*-hours. Our people work pretty hard. One question I wanted to ask you—I talked to Guru dāsa about it quite a bit—was as far as chanting rounds were concerned. Our people do work often sixteen, seventeen, eighteen hours a day, because we want to make this thing work. And sometimes we find that sixteen rounds, they don't do any, because in the end, it is not possible; they just don't have time, because of the work. Is there some kind of standard that we could set that would be . . . *General regulation is, suppose today you could not complete sixteen rounds—say you have completed twelve rounds—so the next day you complete four rounds. That means twenty rounds. Next day regular sixteen rounds, plus yesterday's. That is the rule. Anyway, something is better than nothing. (laughter) But the rule, regulation is, just like the Gosvāmīs, they, if they missed chanting rounds, they would not sleep, completely. That is vow, dṛḍha*-vrata . In Sanskrit it is called dṛḍha-vrata. That makes very strong spiritual strength. Part of the problem from our point is that we hide our bead bags, because people think we'd be very ridiculous to be carrying a bead bag around. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . convince them. They can carry, what is called? Trans . . . transistor. Transistor radio. Like a log. (laughter) And if you cannot carry it always . . . so it is very big social problem. So we have to be careful of our position, because some people they have told me that, "I would be walking down the street sometime, and we passed the devotees . . ." No. You can say that, "I have got some defect in my hand. I have got some defect for chanting. Therefore I have covered it." (laughter) Sometime I have had people ask me why my hand is bandaged up. This idea of teaching tennis is actually a good platform for preaching, because the people in America are so eager to learn how to play tennis. If they can tell all their customers, "Now if you want to play tennis very good—you have to follow these four rules, that will help you play tennis." *No, this tennis—not exactly like this—but this ball*-throwing, you see in the Bhāgavata , the queens of Kṛṣṇa on the roof, they are playing ball, throwing ball. That was a form of exercise—of course for the high-class kings and queens. Ordinary man, he is working all the day; *he hasn't got time to take to sporting. But queens, they have nothing to work. So on the roof of the palace they are playing this ball, this kind of tennis. I think that tennis is also meant for very high*-class society, eh? Formerly it was just very exclusive. But now it is becoming the most popular sport in America. *Thirty*-seven million people out of two hundred and twenty million people are now playing tennis. So it is the most popular sport. It is just a catalyst for media. I have seen in that park. Yes, Rancho Park. Huh? Rancho Park. What it's called? Yes, where they . . . (indistinct) Early in the morning they are playing tennis. Right. We went for a walk one time, when I went out on a walk with you, and we were passing by the tennis courts, and all my friends were coaching friends, so I kind of hid in the middle of the group, because they would think I was a little bit crazy to be a devotee. And so I've had a lot of disguise. We are just using tennis as a medium. If the company fails tomorrow, then we know that we will always go straight to the temple. But right now it is a tremendous opportunity for us, because they become attracted to us, because we don't have shaved heads, because we aren't carrying bead bags externally. So they like us, and they become our friends. *In the . . . (indistinct) . . . yena tena prakāreṇa mana kṛṣṇe niveśayet : somehow or other draw the attention to Kṛṣṇa. So if the tennis player somehow or other comes to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he gets . . . (indistinct) . . . not that one has to live in the temple. Somehow or the other, if he chants Kṛṣṇa's name, he's a devotee. Yena tena prakāreṇa mana kṛṣṇe niveśayet. There is a verse. Somehow or other if somebody comes to the light, he takes, he sees sense—like that. So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Somehow or the other be conscious of Kṛṣṇa. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65). *Man*-manā means "think of Me." In another place: *"Of all , one who is thinking particularly of Me . . . (indistinct) . . . is considered the best." So somehow or the other if people are educated to think of Kṛṣṇa, that will be a great benefit in his life. Simply thinking. Other things you may do or may not do, but thinking of Kṛṣṇa is very, very important. That is education, first*-class education. Somehow or other. *So thinking of Kṛṣṇa means he is becoming purified. Material life is impure. Due to our impurity, we are attached to this material body. So the more you purify, then you come to your spiritual body. And when you are completely purified, no more restriction. No more . . . (indistinct) . . . the example given is the iron rod. You put it in the fire so it becomes warmer, gradually it becomes red*-hot. When it is red-hot it is no more iron rod; it is fire. Is it not? So if you always think of Kṛṣṇa, then you become gradually spiritualized, and then perfected in your spiritual life. You don't have any more material body in this life, and next life there is no restraint, simply . . . (indistinct) *Material body is the source of all tribulation. We have got suffering and so*-called enjoyment of life. This is due to this body. So as soon as we accept this material body, the material sufferings must be there. The chief material suffering is death. You have no . . . (indistinct) . . . birth, death, old age, disease—these are the highest, topmost material sufferings. Nobody wants to die, but death is come upon you. Nobody wants to take birth, but there is . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody wants old age, but there is . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody wants disease, but there is suffering. So either you live in America or in India or in heaven or hell, these material sufferings accompany you. But you do not want them. You are all sportsmen, young men, but you cannot expect that there will be no old age . . . (indistinct) . . . sportsman . . . (indistinct) . . . you cannot be . . . (indistinct) . . . there are so many young men, they are running in the morning, but if I run like that a few steps . . . (laughter) (laughs) So even I want it, I cannot do it, because I am old man. But this is compulsory. Because nobody wants to become old man and suffer. The science continues. They are defying God. So-called scientists say there is no need of God; you can solve all problems by science. Is it possible? But you cannot solve these four unwanted things—birth, death, old age and disease. It is impossible to check it. The devas , they are . . . (indistinct) . . . they control. That is the proof of existence. They deny the existence of God: "God is dead," "There is no God," "There is no need of God." But God is there. Simply worship. You are small. God will come at death, and everything will be taken away. *That is mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gītā : mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34) *"I come as death to take away all his assets, his health, his money, his assets, his education—everything." Sarva*-haraś. Sarva-haraś means "taking away." Therefore His name is Hari. Hari means "who can take away everything." So He takes away of the atheists all his possessions, and He takes away all discomforts of the devotees. Therefore His name is Hari; *He takes away. He takes away of the nondevotees all his so*-called possessions, of which he is very, very proud; and He takes away all the troubles of the devotee. This is going on. The devotee becomes very, very happy when all his material conditions are taken away by Kṛṣṇa: . . . (indistinct) . . . no more birth, death, old age and disease. He takes away all the disadvantages. And for the materialistic person, he is thinking, "All these my possessions: my wife, children, my house, my nation, my position, my bank balance and so on, so on, so on." He takes away. Forcefully it is taken away. We are thinking, "My strong body," deha , "my good children—very qualified, educated, well placed," dehāpatya; *kalatra , "my good wife, faithful wife—very pleasing, enchanting." Dehāpatya*-kalatrādiṣu . This is a struggle for existence, and we take these things as our soldiers. Just like a king fights with his soldiers, similarly, we fight, struggle for existence, that we have got a very comfortable home. We think that we are secured, but we are not secure. All these soldiers will be finished. He is a madman. He is thinking that his things will be safe. They will be finished with you—everyone. Then another chapter begins. From your good work in this life you can remain as a statue in the park. (laughter) You have to accept another body . . . (indistinct) . . . again. (pause) So in your job, do you read our books sometimes? *Oh, more than sometimes. When we travel, I tell them . . . because we have to deal with the so*-called karmi world on our . . . I tell all of our professionals to do as much as they can, like they should always sleep with the bead bag in our hand, so that if you wake up at night we can chant ourselves back to sleep. And always read a book on Kṛṣṇa before you got to sleep, because our mind becomes agitated occasionally because of the dealings with the karmi world. So we have to do as much as we can to checkpoint any problems that may exist, so . . . Yes, the whole science of reading from the book, the situation is that you can dream of it. That is very good. A couple of us are like life members. And every . . . most of the sincere . . . only the very intimate people within our organization really know about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They . . . we talk about karma , and whenever anyone falls down on the court and gets hurt, I tell them, "Don't worry, because you are not your body." And gradually, gradually it's starting to . . . you can see how they react, and if they react positively, then we introduce Kṛṣṇa consciousness to them. But if they are not, then we just, we don't . . . we leave them. By these activities you become recognized very nicely by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says: Anyone who does like this, he becomes very, very dear to Kṛṣṇa. That is our business, how to become dear to Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa says only, "Yes, you are all right," then your life is a success. Recognization by Kṛṣṇa! That is the success for us. This whole movement is how to be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Only Kṛṣṇa has to confirm, "Yes, you're doing . . . (indistinct) . . ." That is our aim; *that is our ambition—how Kṛṣṇa will recognize our service. And once recognized, then your life becomes successful. But He recognizes even slight service to Him. He is so kind. There are so many histories where He recognizes even slight service, insignificant. That is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā : Even slight service can save him from the greatest danger. *So try to do some service for Kṛṣṇa, and you can say you are recognized. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that we should not be very much anxious to see Kṛṣṇa, but we should work in such a way that Kṛṣṇa will see us. We should not try to see Kṛṣṇa. Many people are very anxious to see God. They say: "Can you show me God?" That is not the question of devotees. Devotees will say: "I may see or not see God, but if I can give Him service, then He will see me." Why shall I call God to see me, unnecessarily giving Him trouble? He is busy in so many ways, so why shall I divert His attention to see me? No. That is not what we do. Kṛṣṇa is giving me chance to serve Him, so let me serve Him sincerely, so that He will see me. He has His eyes everywhere, His hands, legs, everywhere. So if we do some service for Kṛṣṇa, He will see you, personally . . . (indistinct) . . . dadāmi buddhi*-yogaṁ taṁ (BG 10.10). *He will give intelligence how to come to Him. He is all*-pervading; everywhere He is present. And you can see Him also everywhere, if you develop such love for Him. So, give them some prasādam . Thank you very much. (break) In all of our decisions, when we have a meeting, if we don't know what to decide, we always say: "What would Prabhupāda think," or "What would Kṛṣṇa think?" And that's sometimes a . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- June 6, 1976, Los Angeles . . . just like you are also following the instructions, spiritual instructions. So we see those disciples who observe these four regulative principles, they become . . . (indistinct) . . . according to the advice from the brāhmaṇas . It is very good, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas ( BG 3.21). If the leaders of the society accept something, then the followers, they also accept. So that brainwork must be there. Just like in the whole body, the brain is the most important part. If one of your arms is cut off, you do not die; but if the head is cut off, you will die. So the brāhmaṇa community of the society must be maintained, otherwise who will guide? Without brain, who will guide the arms and the legs and the head? So at the present moment that is lacking. The brain society is practically nil, and they are not eager to establish or to educate a section of people to become perfect brāhmin . There is no such arrangement. There is engineering college, medical college—so many different departments are there, educational institutions—but there is no institution throughout the whole world how to train a class of men to become perfect brāhmaṇas , or intelligent class. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are just trying to set up a section of the people to become very, very intelligent. And who is very, very intelligent? One who knows God. He is intelligent. That is the end of knowledge. As any educational program it has got an end, so we are getting knowledge in so many ways, but end of knowledge is to know God. That is called Vedānta . Vedā means "knowledge"; anta means "end." Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). That is the end of knowledge. Simply by knowing God, you know everything. So that knowledge is lacking and being covered. So we are trying to give this knowledge to human society. Anyone helps this movement, he also becomes recognized by God. (indistinct aside to devotee about light) Therefore they have got Vedic process. Brain must be maintained. Just like if somebody is coming to attack you, you first of all try to protect your brain, head. Is it not? And his hands, not his legs. So the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. Brāhmaṇa is the brain, and the hands are the kṣatriyas . The brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya , and everyone is maintained by food, digestion—that is belly. Unless you digest nicely, then the brain will not act, and legs . . . hands will not act. And then the legs, śūdras ? All of them required. They have got different functions. That is scientific division of human society. Somebody must work as brain, somebody works as hand, somebody works as belly, and somebody must work as legs. That is complete body. So other things are taken care of, but the government, the . . . (indistinct) . . . they are neglectful about this brain, brāhmaṇa . That is the defect of modern civilization. Therefore the human society is in more or less chaotic condition. There are so many educated leaders, so many universities, but still the society is not working. They are trying to adjust things in the United Nations. That is also not doing, because there is no brain, no brāhmaṇa . That is a fact. They do not know how to act. Everybody is whimsically saying something: "I think," "I believe." "You believe," "I believe," "He believes." Everyone believes. Who we should accept? What is the standard? From the present civilization everyone is coming forward: "I believe." You believe; I also believe. You don't accept my belief; I don't accept your belief. Finished. Whole adjustment is wrong. So there must be standard belief. If everyone puts forward his own belief, then which one will be the standard? So we are taking the Kṛṣṇa's instructions as standard. And that is the fact. There must be something standard. In the society, in such condition that "I believe," "You believe," "He believes," what is the standard? Chaos. Yes. That is the present condition. They are manufacturing their own ideas. They cannot accept the standard idea. If the whole human society in the United Nations passes a resolution that "The standard ideas advocated by the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we shall accept," immediately all problems solved. That is a fact. *Prabhupāda, we have very strict standards. There is no second chance. We have a no smoking, no drinking, no drugs or anything. Just one offence, they are released for a lifetime—they can never return. So it's a very strict standard. We are the only corporate structure in North America. We have a very intelligent lawyer to put it into corporate rules, because sometimes people say that it is taking away their freedom of choice. After working hours you can have it legally on your papers that they cannot drink while working, but we have it even while on off*-hours. Our people work pretty hard. One question I wanted to ask you—I talked to Guru dāsa about it quite a bit—was as far as chanting rounds were concerned. Our people do work often sixteen, seventeen, eighteen hours a day, because we want to make this thing work. And sometimes we find that sixteen rounds, they don't do any, because in the end, it is not possible; they just don't have time, because of the work. Is there some kind of standard that we could set that would be . . . *General regulation is, suppose today you could not complete sixteen rounds—say you have completed twelve rounds—so the next day you complete four rounds. That means twenty rounds. Next day regular sixteen rounds, plus yesterday's. That is the rule. Anyway, something is better than nothing. (laughter) But the rule, regulation is, just like the Gosvāmīs, they, if they missed chanting rounds, they would not sleep, completely. That is vow, dṛḍha*-vrata . In Sanskrit it is called dṛḍha-vrata. That makes very strong spiritual strength. Part of the problem from our point is that we hide our bead bags, because people think we'd be very ridiculous to be carrying a bead bag around. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . convince them. They can carry, what is called? Trans . . . transistor. Transistor radio. Like a log. (laughter) And if you cannot carry it always . . . so it is very big social problem. So we have to be careful of our position, because some people they have told me that, "I would be walking down the street sometime, and we passed the devotees . . ." No. You can say that, "I have got some defect in my hand. I have got some defect for chanting. Therefore I have covered it." (laughter) Sometime I have had people ask me why my hand is bandaged up. This idea of teaching tennis is actually a good platform for preaching, because the people in America are so eager to learn how to play tennis. If they can tell all their customers, "Now if you want to play tennis very good—you have to follow these four rules, that will help you play tennis." *No, this tennis—not exactly like this—but this ball*-throwing, you see in the Bhāgavata , the queens of Kṛṣṇa on the roof, they are playing ball, throwing ball. That was a form of exercise—of course for the high-class kings and queens. Ordinary man, he is working all the day; *he hasn't got time to take to sporting. But queens, they have nothing to work. So on the roof of the palace they are playing this ball, this kind of tennis. I think that tennis is also meant for very high*-class society, eh? Formerly it was just very exclusive. But now it is becoming the most popular sport in America. *Thirty*-seven million people out of two hundred and twenty million people are now playing tennis. So it is the most popular sport. It is just a catalyst for media. I have seen in that park. Yes, Rancho Park. Huh? Rancho Park. What it's called? Yes, where they . . . (indistinct) Early in the morning they are playing tennis. Right. We went for a walk one time, when I went out on a walk with you, and we were passing by the tennis courts, and all my friends were coaching friends, so I kind of hid in the middle of the group, because they would think I was a little bit crazy to be a devotee. And so I've had a lot of disguise. We are just using tennis as a medium. If the company fails tomorrow, then we know that we will always go straight to the temple. But right now it is a tremendous opportunity for us, because they become attracted to us, because we don't have shaved heads, because we aren't carrying bead bags externally. So they like us, and they become our friends. *In the . . . (indistinct) . . . yena tena prakāreṇa mana kṛṣṇe niveśayet : somehow or other draw the attention to Kṛṣṇa. So if the tennis player somehow or other comes to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he gets . . . (indistinct) . . . not that one has to live in the temple. Somehow or the other, if he chants Kṛṣṇa's name, he's a devotee. Yena tena prakāreṇa mana kṛṣṇe niveśayet. There is a verse. Somehow or other if somebody comes to the light, he takes, he sees sense—like that. So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Somehow or the other be conscious of Kṛṣṇa. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65). *Man*-manā means "think of Me." In another place: *"Of all , one who is thinking particularly of Me . . . (indistinct) . . . is considered the best." So somehow or the other if people are educated to think of Kṛṣṇa, that will be a great benefit in his life. Simply thinking. Other things you may do or may not do, but thinking of Kṛṣṇa is very, very important. That is education, first*-class education. Somehow or other. *So thinking of Kṛṣṇa means he is becoming purified. Material life is impure. Due to our impurity, we are attached to this material body. So the more you purify, then you come to your spiritual body. And when you are completely purified, no more restriction. No more . . . (indistinct) . . . the example given is the iron rod. You put it in the fire so it becomes warmer, gradually it becomes red*-hot. When it is red-hot it is no more iron rod; it is fire. Is it not? So if you always think of Kṛṣṇa, then you become gradually spiritualized, and then perfected in your spiritual life. You don't have any more material body in this life, and next life there is no restraint, simply . . . (indistinct) *Material body is the source of all tribulation. We have got suffering and so*-called enjoyment of life. This is due to this body. So as soon as we accept this material body, the material sufferings must be there. The chief material suffering is death. You have no . . . (indistinct) . . . birth, death, old age, disease—these are the highest, topmost material sufferings. Nobody wants to die, but death is come upon you. Nobody wants to take birth, but there is . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody wants old age, but there is . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody wants disease, but there is suffering. So either you live in America or in India or in heaven or hell, these material sufferings accompany you. But you do not want them. You are all sportsmen, young men, but you cannot expect that there will be no old age . . . (indistinct) . . . sportsman . . . (indistinct) . . . you cannot be . . . (indistinct) . . . there are so many young men, they are running in the morning, but if I run like that a few steps . . . (laughter) (laughs) So even I want it, I cannot do it, because I am old man. But this is compulsory. Because nobody wants to become old man and suffer. The science continues. They are defying God. So-called scientists say there is no need of God; you can solve all problems by science. Is it possible? But you cannot solve these four unwanted things—birth, death, old age and disease. It is impossible to check it. The devas , they are . . . (indistinct) . . . they control. That is the proof of existence. They deny the existence of God: "God is dead," "There is no God," "There is no need of God." But God is there. Simply worship. You are small. God will come at death, and everything will be taken away. *That is mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gītā : mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34) *"I come as death to take away all his assets, his health, his money, his assets, his education—everything." Sarva*-haraś. Sarva-haraś means "taking away." Therefore His name is Hari. Hari means "who can take away everything." So He takes away of the atheists all his possessions, and He takes away all discomforts of the devotees. Therefore His name is Hari; *He takes away. He takes away of the nondevotees all his so*-called possessions, of which he is very, very proud; and He takes away all the troubles of the devotee. This is going on. The devotee becomes very, very happy when all his material conditions are taken away by Kṛṣṇa: . . . (indistinct) . . . no more birth, death, old age and disease. He takes away all the disadvantages. And for the materialistic person, he is thinking, "All these my possessions: my wife, children, my house, my nation, my position, my bank balance and so on, so on, so on." He takes away. Forcefully it is taken away. We are thinking, "My strong body," deha , "my good children—very qualified, educated, well placed," dehāpatya; *kalatra , "my good wife, faithful wife—very pleasing, enchanting." Dehāpatya*-kalatrādiṣu . This is a struggle for existence, and we take these things as our soldiers. Just like a king fights with his soldiers, similarly, we fight, struggle for existence, that we have got a very comfortable home. We think that we are secured, but we are not secure. All these soldiers will be finished. He is a madman. He is thinking that his things will be safe. They will be finished with you—everyone. Then another chapter begins. From your good work in this life you can remain as a statue in the park. (laughter) You have to accept another body . . . (indistinct) . . . again. (pause) So in your job, do you read our books sometimes? *Oh, more than sometimes. When we travel, I tell them . . . because we have to deal with the so*-called karmi world on our . . . I tell all of our professionals to do as much as they can, like they should always sleep with the bead bag in our hand, so that if you wake up at night we can chant ourselves back to sleep. And always read a book on Kṛṣṇa before you got to sleep, because our mind becomes agitated occasionally because of the dealings with the karmi world. So we have to do as much as we can to checkpoint any problems that may exist, so . . . Yes, the whole science of reading from the book, the situation is that you can dream of it. That is very good. A couple of us are like life members. And every . . . most of the sincere . . . only the very intimate people within our organization really know about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They . . . we talk about karma , and whenever anyone falls down on the court and gets hurt, I tell them, "Don't worry, because you are not your body." And gradually, gradually it's starting to . . . you can see how they react, and if they react positively, then we introduce Kṛṣṇa consciousness to them. But if they are not, then we just, we don't . . . we leave them. By these activities you become recognized very nicely by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says: Anyone who does like this, he becomes very, very dear to Kṛṣṇa. That is our business, how to become dear to Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa says only, "Yes, you are all right," then your life is a success. Recognization by Kṛṣṇa! That is the success for us. This whole movement is how to be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Only Kṛṣṇa has to confirm, "Yes, you're doing . . . (indistinct) . . ." That is our aim; *that is our ambition—how Kṛṣṇa will recognize our service. And once recognized, then your life becomes successful. But He recognizes even slight service to Him. He is so kind. There are so many histories where He recognizes even slight service, insignificant. That is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā : Even slight service can save him from the greatest danger. *So try to do some service for Kṛṣṇa, and you can say you are recognized. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that we should not be very much anxious to see Kṛṣṇa, but we should work in such a way that Kṛṣṇa will see us. We should not try to see Kṛṣṇa. Many people are very anxious to see God. They say: "Can you show me God?" That is not the question of devotees. Devotees will say: "I may see or not see God, but if I can give Him service, then He will see me." Why shall I call God to see me, unnecessarily giving Him trouble? He is busy in so many ways, so why shall I divert His attention to see me? No. That is not what we do. Kṛṣṇa is giving me chance to serve Him, so let me serve Him sincerely, so that He will see me. He has His eyes everywhere, His hands, legs, everywhere. So if we do some service for Kṛṣṇa, He will see you, personally . . . (indistinct) . . . dadāmi buddhi*-yogaṁ taṁ (BG 10.10). *He will give intelligence how to come to Him. He is all*-pervading; everywhere He is present. And you can see Him also everywhere, if you develop such love for Him. So, give them some prasādam . Thank you very much. (break) In all of our decisions, when we have a meeting, if we don't know what to decide, we always say: "What would Prabhupāda think," or "What would Kṛṣṇa think?" And that's sometimes a . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles Hitler one side, fought with the Britishers, smashed them. This is one cause. Another cause: Hitler helped Subhas Chandra Bose to organize I.N.A. Two causes, the Britishers to go away. Otherwise, Gandhi's noncooperation movement was started in 1917, and we got our independence in 1947. Thirty years. Thirty years he could not do anything. And Subhas Chandra Bose in 1940 or '42, he went out of India and organized this I.N.A with the help of Hitler, and the Britishers were obliged to leave India. What do you think? That is my estimation. Yes, I think so too. Yes, and he is also . . . And Hitler not only helped Subhas Chandra Bose to organize this I.N.A. organization, but by fighting with the Britishers, he smashed . . . the British lion was bandaged. There was a cartoon picture. I've seen in that way. The lion is lying down and bandaged, (makes some gestures) here and here and here, there, patched, British lion. (laughter) That's a fact. Subhas Chandra Bose, he was in, I think he was . . . He was my college friend. We studied in the same college. Is that right? He was one year senior to me. He appeared from the year 1919, I appeared in 1920. Yes. And then he was in a plane crash? Or . . .? There is a great history. Yes. I don't know if it is true. (break) . . . he has taken sannyāsa , and just gone out somewhere. So anyway, although you have got independence, India, oh, what is the profit? The independence is just about to come, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you start preaching there. (Trivikrama enters and pays obeisances) *The real sva*-raja is go back to home, back to Godhead. Śrīla Prabhupāda, today I made arrangements for my tickets. I'll be leaving Saturday. So you're leaving Friday, so it's just nice. You're going to . . .? Hong Kong first, make sure Dai Nippon gets printed nicely. They have got a press in Hong Kong? Yes. At least an office. I'm not . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa said there was a press, but I'm not sure. (Hari-śauri is looking at something) What is this? It says here that this is possibly the very first newspaper article of your arrival in the West. This is, er, this was written at the time that you . . . the very first month you were there. Oh, yes. Butler. It says you may stay for one month. (laughs) Hmm? *It says you have come for one month as a commissioner to preach bhakti*-yoga in the West. Called me "Ambassador." It is a very old article. Where you got it? From one . . . Candanācārya had a copy. Oh. It was in Butler in 19 . . . You were staying in the YMCA. *Yes. (break) So I did not say anything seriously, but perhaps he took it very seriously, Gopal's father. So he might have written to Gopal that, "Swami Bhaktivedanta wants to go to America. If you sponsor, then he can go." So whatever the correspondence was there between the father and son, I did not know. I simply asked him, "Why don't you ask your son Gopal to sponsor so that I can go there? I want to preach there." So after some months, three, four months, the No*-Objection Certificate from the Indian embassy in New York, Gopal sent to me, yes, that he had already sponsored my arrival there for one month. So all of a sudden I got the paper, No-Objection Certificate, by the Indian embassy. After so much inquiry, I learned that so much inquiry was done and so on, so on. Then I tried to take a passport and paper process. So I got the passport. Then I approached that Sumati Morarji. She once gave me five hundred rupees in exchange of my Bhāgavata book, so I approached her that, "Give me one ticket." They have got their shipping company, Scindia Navigation. So she said: "Swāmījī, you are so old, you are taking this so responsibility. Do you think it is right?" "No, it is all right." (laughs) At that time, I was seventy years old. So all the secretary, they thought that, "Swāmījī is going to die there." Anyway, they gave me the ticket, one return free ticket by their ship. Then arrangement was going on. So there is another process to get a P-form. You know. *P*-form. *P*-form sanctioned by the state government, yes, state government. So it was applied for. It was . . . no sanction was coming. Then I went to the State Bank of India, the officer Mr. Bhattacari. So he told me: "Swāmījī, you are sponsored by private man, so we cannot accept it. If you are invited by some institution, then we could consider, but you are invited by a private man for one month, and, after one month, if you are in difficulty, and there will be so much obstacles and so on." "Well, I have already prepared everything to go." So I said that, "You . . . what you have done?" "No, I have decided not to sanction your P-form." "No, no, don't do this. You better send to your superior. It should not be done like that." So he took my request, and he sent the file to Chief Officer of Foreign Exchange, something like that. Anyway, he is the supreme man in the State Bank of India. So I went to see him. So I asked his secretary that, "You have got such file? You kindly put to Mr . . ."—his name was Mr. Rao—"I want to see him." So the secretary agreed, and he put the file and put my slip that I wanted to see him. I was waiting. So Mr. Rao came personally. He said: "Swāmījī, I have passed your case. Don't worry." (laughs) In this way. He knew you from before, or . . .? No. He did not know me. So somebody saw him in Bombay, so he reminded that, "I know Swāmījī when he went to USA." Somebody was telling me. He remembered. Hmm. The name is there, he remembered. After all, he is officer. He knows so many things. So it is a great history. (laughs) There was two days I was attacked in heart on the ship. So hardship. Then you had a dream? Hmm. What was that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? That is . . . (laughs) The dream was I must come here. It was some instruction that you got? The dream was that Kṛṣṇa in His many forms was bowing the row . . . what is called? Rowing the boat. Yes. Jaya . And when I arrived in Boston I wrote that poetry. If you were only sponsored for one month, how is it that you were able to extend your visa all the time? I was extending. The immigration officer came in Boston in my boat. He inquired about this. So he asked me, "Sir, Swāmījī, how long you want to stay?" So I thought that I have no shelter, I have no money, but I have got the return ticket. So I did not know how long I . . . (laughs) He asked me, "How long you want to stay?" So I thought, "In these circumstances, I can stay at most two months, because I have no means where to stay, how to eat, and where shall I go. So I may struggle for two months." So I told him, "I may stay at most two months." He immediately, two months, sanctioned immediately. I could not think that I shall be able to . . . (laughs) That one month were there, sponsoring. So I thought, "Another one month, that's all," that "This gentleman has sponsored for one month. So that is guaranteed. Then I can stay another one month. That's all." So after that, so I was staying here and there without any fixity. So I was extending the visa. Each time, I was paying ten dollars. Another three months, another three months, like that. And when one year was finished, they refused: "No extension." But by that time you had some kind of . . . Yes. . . . organization going? Yes, hmm, at that time I was at Second Avenue. So then Raya Rāma took the help of a lawyer. He took the case, that he'll give me permanent residence. So he was extending only, and each time he was taking hundred and fifty dollars. So in this way, I entered in 1965, September, up to July—no, up to May—and in the May, month of May, there was heart stroke. That was when, '67? *Sixty*-six. *Sixty*-six. Yes. '66. Yes, after one and a half year. No. That was '67 then. Because the time was taken, extension. Then, 1967, in July, I thought, "Now the health is broken." I was very sick after heart stroke. So I thought, "Now I shall not exist. So let me go to Vṛndāvana and die there." So I came back in July 1967. So this Brahmānanda and others, they were crying when I got on the boat. Hmm? The heart was so weak . . . You went back to India by boat? No, by plane. I think . . . From San Francisco. Hmm. At that time, I got some money. Five thousand was given by Jayānanda. He gave me five thousand, and Brahmānanda also gave me. So I spent some money for acquiring some . . . I had about six thousand. So then I purchased ticket coming back with Kīrtanānanda. In this way, came back to India. You were just saying . . . And again I paid five thousand rupees to Kīrtanānanda to come back. (aside) What is that? Kirtirāja Prabhu bought this for your rocking chair. Oh. Should I put it on? Rock and roll. (laughter) So when did you come back again? I came back in 1968, no, '67, December. Oh, you weren't gone long then. Six months. Yes, July to December. And your health was better? *Not very good. So many troubles. When I came back there's always a bad sound going on, gong*-gong-gong , in my brain. Very disturbing, in this Los Angeles. I was staying in some . . . I forgot. La Cienega? Yes, huh? In La Cienega? No, no, La Cienega, later on. I was staying near Pico. Is that Pico? There was a . . . I think Washington Boulevard? Near there. I forgot that quarter. It is black quarter. And this boy—who is he now? Aniruddha? What is his name? Gurukṛpā? No, no. Aniruddha. Gaurasundara? No, no. Aniruddha. Oh, Aniruddha. Yes, he was taking care of me here in Los Angeles. And they used to come from San Francisco. First of all I came to San Francisco from India. Then I came to Los Angeles, to start a center here. I think Dayānanda took charge of this center. I was at the Press building, and I saw a devotee had some stationery. Dayānanda was the . . . (indistinct) . . . and Gargamuni was the secretary. Oh. So Los Angeles center was opened on your arrival back from India. And up to that time there was New York and . . .? San Francisco. And Montreal? No, Montreal later. I think, maybe, Montreal first. (end) Conversation A -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles Hitler one side, fought with the Britishers, smashed them. This is one cause. Another cause: Hitler helped Subhas Chandra Bose to organize I.N.A. Two causes, the Britishers to go away. Otherwise, Gandhi's noncooperation movement was started in 1917, and we got our independence in 1947. Thirty years. Thirty years he could not do anything. And Subhas Chandra Bose in 1940 or '42, he went out of India and organized this I.N.A with the help of Hitler, and the Britishers were obliged to leave India. What do you think? That is my estimation. Yes, I think so too. Yes, and he is also . . . And Hitler not only helped Subhas Chandra Bose to organize this I.N.A. organization, but by fighting with the Britishers, he smashed . . . the British lion was bandaged. There was a cartoon picture. I've seen in that way. The lion is lying down and bandaged, (makes some gestures) here and here and here, there, patched, British lion. (laughter) That's a fact. Subhas Chandra Bose, he was in, I think he was . . . He was my college friend. We studied in the same college. Is that right? He was one year senior to me. He appeared from the year 1919, I appeared in 1920. Yes. And then he was in a plane crash? Or . . .? There is a great history. Yes. I don't know if it is true. (break) . . . he has taken sannyāsa , and just gone out somewhere. So anyway, although you have got independence, India, oh, what is the profit? The independence is just about to come, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you start preaching there. (Trivikrama enters and pays obeisances) *The real sva*-raja is go back to home, back to Godhead. Śrīla Prabhupāda, today I made arrangements for my tickets. I'll be leaving Saturday. So you're leaving Friday, so it's just nice. You're going to . . .? Hong Kong first, make sure Dai Nippon gets printed nicely. They have got a press in Hong Kong? Yes. At least an office. I'm not . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa said there was a press, but I'm not sure. (Hari-śauri is looking at something) What is this? It says here that this is possibly the very first newspaper article of your arrival in the West. This is, er, this was written at the time that you . . . the very first month you were there. Oh, yes. Butler. It says you may stay for one month. (laughs) Hmm? *It says you have come for one month as a commissioner to preach bhakti*-yoga in the West. Called me "Ambassador." It is a very old article. Where you got it? From one . . . Candanācārya had a copy. Oh. It was in Butler in 19 . . . You were staying in the YMCA. *Yes. (break) So I did not say anything seriously, but perhaps he took it very seriously, Gopal's father. So he might have written to Gopal that, "Swami Bhaktivedanta wants to go to America. If you sponsor, then he can go." So whatever the correspondence was there between the father and son, I did not know. I simply asked him, "Why don't you ask your son Gopal to sponsor so that I can go there? I want to preach there." So after some months, three, four months, the No*-Objection Certificate from the Indian embassy in New York, Gopal sent to me, yes, that he had already sponsored my arrival there for one month. So all of a sudden I got the paper, No-Objection Certificate, by the Indian embassy. After so much inquiry, I learned that so much inquiry was done and so on, so on. Then I tried to take a passport and paper process. So I got the passport. Then I approached that Sumati Morarji. She once gave me five hundred rupees in exchange of my Bhāgavata book, so I approached her that, "Give me one ticket." They have got their shipping company, Scindia Navigation. So she said: "Swāmījī, you are so old, you are taking this so responsibility. Do you think it is right?" "No, it is all right." (laughs) At that time, I was seventy years old. So all the secretary, they thought that, "Swāmījī is going to die there." Anyway, they gave me the ticket, one return free ticket by their ship. Then arrangement was going on. So there is another process to get a P-form. You know. *P*-form. *P*-form sanctioned by the state government, yes, state government. So it was applied for. It was . . . no sanction was coming. Then I went to the State Bank of India, the officer Mr. Bhattacari. So he told me: "Swāmījī, you are sponsored by private man, so we cannot accept it. If you are invited by some institution, then we could consider, but you are invited by a private man for one month, and, after one month, if you are in difficulty, and there will be so much obstacles and so on." "Well, I have already prepared everything to go." So I said that, "You . . . what you have done?" "No, I have decided not to sanction your P-form." "No, no, don't do this. You better send to your superior. It should not be done like that." So he took my request, and he sent the file to Chief Officer of Foreign Exchange, something like that. Anyway, he is the supreme man in the State Bank of India. So I went to see him. So I asked his secretary that, "You have got such file? You kindly put to Mr . . ."—his name was Mr. Rao—"I want to see him." So the secretary agreed, and he put the file and put my slip that I wanted to see him. I was waiting. So Mr. Rao came personally. He said: "Swāmījī, I have passed your case. Don't worry." (laughs) In this way. He knew you from before, or . . .? No. He did not know me. So somebody saw him in Bombay, so he reminded that, "I know Swāmījī when he went to USA." Somebody was telling me. He remembered. Hmm. The name is there, he remembered. After all, he is officer. He knows so many things. So it is a great history. (laughs) There was two days I was attacked in heart on the ship. So hardship. Then you had a dream? Hmm. What was that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? That is . . . (laughs) The dream was I must come here. It was some instruction that you got? The dream was that Kṛṣṇa in His many forms was bowing the row . . . what is called? Rowing the boat. Yes. Jaya . And when I arrived in Boston I wrote that poetry. If you were only sponsored for one month, how is it that you were able to extend your visa all the time? I was extending. The immigration officer came in Boston in my boat. He inquired about this. So he asked me, "Sir, Swāmījī, how long you want to stay?" So I thought that I have no shelter, I have no money, but I have got the return ticket. So I did not know how long I . . . (laughs) He asked me, "How long you want to stay?" So I thought, "In these circumstances, I can stay at most two months, because I have no means where to stay, how to eat, and where shall I go. So I may struggle for two months." So I told him, "I may stay at most two months." He immediately, two months, sanctioned immediately. I could not think that I shall be able to . . . (laughs) That one month were there, sponsoring. So I thought, "Another one month, that's all," that "This gentleman has sponsored for one month. So that is guaranteed. Then I can stay another one month. That's all." So after that, so I was staying here and there without any fixity. So I was extending the visa. Each time, I was paying ten dollars. Another three months, another three months, like that. And when one year was finished, they refused: "No extension." But by that time you had some kind of . . . Yes. . . . organization going? Yes, hmm, at that time I was at Second Avenue. So then Raya Rāma took the help of a lawyer. He took the case, that he'll give me permanent residence. So he was extending only, and each time he was taking hundred and fifty dollars. So in this way, I entered in 1965, September, up to July—no, up to May—and in the May, month of May, there was heart stroke. That was when, '67? *Sixty*-six. *Sixty*-six. Yes. '66. Yes, after one and a half year. No. That was '67 then. Because the time was taken, extension. Then, 1967, in July, I thought, "Now the health is broken." I was very sick after heart stroke. So I thought, "Now I shall not exist. So let me go to Vṛndāvana and die there." So I came back in July 1967. So this Brahmānanda and others, they were crying when I got on the boat. Hmm? The heart was so weak . . . You went back to India by boat? No, by plane. I think . . . From San Francisco. Hmm. At that time, I got some money. Five thousand was given by Jayānanda. He gave me five thousand, and Brahmānanda also gave me. So I spent some money for acquiring some . . . I had about six thousand. So then I purchased ticket coming back with Kīrtanānanda. In this way, came back to India. You were just saying . . . And again I paid five thousand rupees to Kīrtanānanda to come back. (aside) What is that? Kirtirāja Prabhu bought this for your rocking chair. Oh. Should I put it on? Rock and roll. (laughter) So when did you come back again? I came back in 1968, no, '67, December. Oh, you weren't gone long then. Six months. Yes, July to December. And your health was better? *Not very good. So many troubles. When I came back there's always a bad sound going on, gong*-gong-gong , in my brain. Very disturbing, in this Los Angeles. I was staying in some . . . I forgot. La Cienega? Yes, huh? In La Cienega? No, no, La Cienega, later on. I was staying near Pico. Is that Pico? There was a . . . I think Washington Boulevard? Near there. I forgot that quarter. It is black quarter. And this boy—who is he now? Aniruddha? What is his name? Gurukṛpā? No, no. Aniruddha. Gaurasundara? No, no. Aniruddha. Oh, Aniruddha. Yes, he was taking care of me here in Los Angeles. And they used to come from San Francisco. First of all I came to San Francisco from India. Then I came to Los Angeles, to start a center here. I think Dayānanda took charge of this center. I was at the Press building, and I saw a devotee had some stationery. Dayānanda was the . . . (indistinct) . . . and Gargamuni was the secretary. Oh. So Los Angeles center was opened on your arrival back from India. And up to that time there was New York and . . .? San Francisco. And Montreal? No, Montreal later. I think, maybe, Montreal first. (end) Conversation A -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles ". . . afraid of me, what kind of child? (laughs) Where you got so much strength?" And the answer here: "Prahlāda Mahārāja said: 'My dear King, the source of my strength, of which you are asking, is also the source of yours, by which you are challenging. Indeed, the original source of all kinds of strength is one. He is not only your strength or mine, but the only strength for everyone. Without Him, no one can get any strength, whether moving or not moving, superior or inferior. Everyone, including Lord Brahmā, is controlled by the strength of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.' " "All right, let me see how your strength is coming. Now I shall kill you. Come on. Let me see (laughs) how your God is coming to save you." This is atheism, challenging. And when He appeared, the Hiraṇyakaśipu became a fly (laughs) in front of . . . eh? Where is such language? Even there are many Sanskrit scholars now, they cannot produce such language. That is not possible. And five thousand years before, Vyāsadeva presented this unique language. *This is the twentieth volume of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam now printed. Twentieth volume. Number twenty. *Of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam series. Out of sixty. Still forty. So you have already finished two more volumes at least. So, say . . . Prabhupāda says out of sixty volumes, twenty are already printed, and . . . Twenty already printed, and two or three ready for being printed. But this is the bulk of the cantos, Śrīla Prabhupāda. No, Tenth Canto will be very long. The Tenth . . . *Tenth Canto will be like Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , fifteen volumes, Tenth Canto. Generally six chapters a volume, eh? Depending on the size. No, generally. So there are ninety chapters. That means minimum fifteen volumes, and maybe more. We have presented Kṛṣṇa book, just a summary study, not explained. But when it will be explained, with each and every śloka , purport, then it will be not less than fifteen volumes. Tenth Chapter is the face of the Lord. We have described the legs, hands, belly, that's all, and Tenth Chapter is the face, smiling face. Therefore we should not jump over the face all at once. It must go from the legs, gradually, and then face, then forehead, then hair. Eleventh, Twelfth, Twelfth Chapter, finished, the whole body of Kṛṣṇa. Hmm. So thank you very much. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Śrīla Prabhupāda? We'd like to put . . . we have got in some other copies, and we would like to put them on the altar tonight for sandhyā ārati . These two are your copies. Ah yes, take it. But those two are for Your Divine Grace. We have others to show the Deities. All right. All right, do it. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, how you are keeping your health? Pretty good. That's . . . and things are going nice? Yes. Devotees are all anxious for you, to see. Yes. And Hayagrīva Mahārāja is being forced? (laughs) You should cane me more, Śrīla Prabhupāda No, Kṛṣṇa is very cunning. I know. (laughs) *(still laughing) One may try to leave Him, but He is not going to leave you. Once come, "No, sir, you cannot go out." Just like our Ajāmila. He was devotee in the beginning, and later on, by bad association of prostitute, he fell. But Kṛṣṇa took him at the end. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). Kṛṣṇa gave him chance to give him a son. He kept the son's name Nārāyaṇa. So on account of affection of the son, he was chanting, "Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa." Just Kṛṣṇa is so kind that (laughs) "All right, this rascal is going out of My hand. All right, give him a child, Nārāyaṇa. He will chant, 'Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa,' and that will be his credit." Ajñāta*-sukṛti. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate (CC Madhya 8.70). Sukṛti , pious activities, of many millions of birth is not equal to love of Godhead. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. Tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyaṁ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā-matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate (Padyavali 14): "Purchase Kṛṣṇa consciousness anywhere it is available." What is the price? Tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam : "Only greediness, hankering. That is the price." "Oh, that I have got." "No, no. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. You cannot obtain this price even after millions of births' pious activities." All right. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation A -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles ". . . afraid of me, what kind of child? (laughs) Where you got so much strength?" And the answer here: "Prahlāda Mahārāja said: 'My dear King, the source of my strength, of which you are asking, is also the source of yours, by which you are challenging. Indeed, the original source of all kinds of strength is one. He is not only your strength or mine, but the only strength for everyone. Without Him, no one can get any strength, whether moving or not moving, superior or inferior. Everyone, including Lord Brahmā, is controlled by the strength of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.' " "All right, let me see how your strength is coming. Now I shall kill you. Come on. Let me see (laughs) how your God is coming to save you." This is atheism, challenging. And when He appeared, the Hiraṇyakaśipu became a fly (laughs) in front of . . . eh? Where is such language? Even there are many Sanskrit scholars now, they cannot produce such language. That is not possible. And five thousand years before, Vyāsadeva presented this unique language. *This is the twentieth volume of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam now printed. Twentieth volume. Number twenty. *Of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam series. Out of sixty. Still forty. So you have already finished two more volumes at least. So, say . . . Prabhupāda says out of sixty volumes, twenty are already printed, and . . . Twenty already printed, and two or three ready for being printed. But this is the bulk of the cantos, Śrīla Prabhupāda. No, Tenth Canto will be very long. The Tenth . . . *Tenth Canto will be like Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , fifteen volumes, Tenth Canto. Generally six chapters a volume, eh? Depending on the size. No, generally. So there are ninety chapters. That means minimum fifteen volumes, and maybe more. We have presented Kṛṣṇa book, just a summary study, not explained. But when it will be explained, with each and every śloka , purport, then it will be not less than fifteen volumes. Tenth Chapter is the face of the Lord. We have described the legs, hands, belly, that's all, and Tenth Chapter is the face, smiling face. Therefore we should not jump over the face all at once. It must go from the legs, gradually, and then face, then forehead, then hair. Eleventh, Twelfth, Twelfth Chapter, finished, the whole body of Kṛṣṇa. Hmm. So thank you very much. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Śrīla Prabhupāda? We'd like to put . . . we have got in some other copies, and we would like to put them on the altar tonight for sandhyā ārati . These two are your copies. Ah yes, take it. But those two are for Your Divine Grace. We have others to show the Deities. All right. All right, do it. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, how you are keeping your health? Pretty good. That's . . . and things are going nice? Yes. Devotees are all anxious for you, to see. Yes. And Hayagrīva Mahārāja is being forced? (laughs) You should cane me more, Śrīla Prabhupāda No, Kṛṣṇa is very cunning. I know. (laughs) *(still laughing) One may try to leave Him, but He is not going to leave you. Once come, "No, sir, you cannot go out." Just like our Ajāmila. He was devotee in the beginning, and later on, by bad association of prostitute, he fell. But Kṛṣṇa took him at the end. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). Kṛṣṇa gave him chance to give him a son. He kept the son's name Nārāyaṇa. So on account of affection of the son, he was chanting, "Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa." Just Kṛṣṇa is so kind that (laughs) "All right, this rascal is going out of My hand. All right, give him a child, Nārāyaṇa. He will chant, 'Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa,' and that will be his credit." Ajñāta*-sukṛti. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate (CC Madhya 8.70). Sukṛti , pious activities, of many millions of birth is not equal to love of Godhead. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. Tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyaṁ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā-matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate (Padyavali 14): "Purchase Kṛṣṇa consciousness anywhere it is available." What is the price? Tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam : "Only greediness, hankering. That is the price." "Oh, that I have got." "No, no. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. You cannot obtain this price even after millions of births' pious activities." All right. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation A -- June 10, 1976, Los Angeles This is one . . . (indistinct) No, just a sample. (pause) The total height is forty inches. Kṛṣṇa is twenty and Kāliya is another twenty inches. That's nice. So I think we could try casting it in bronze. Bronze. Bronze will not be polished? *It is the American or the Western version of the aṣṭa*-dhātu . Oh, that is all right. *Or, not aṣṭa*-dhātu , but bell metal. It will be polished? Yes, you can polish very nicely. I've never seen bronze polished. It depends on the quality, grade. Generally they don't use a very high percentage of brass. You think it's better than brass? It's a little cheaper. Bronze is very good. I've never seen it polished. Hmm? I've never seen it highly polished. Yes, that is the problem. Why not make brass? Out of brass? Bronze is harder. Bronze is harder. No, why harder? You can make softer. Metal . . . Gold is softer still. It will be much more brilliant, more beautiful in brass than bronze. Generally . . . *Brass, just like our Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity in Māyāpur, how dazzling. Here also, in Boston. I think Kṛṣṇa is German silver. No. Maybe. Not so much brass casting going on in this country. Mostly bronze casting. Bronze, but it will not be polished. We want polished. I have to investigate it. Bright face. *There's a boy that was in New York who cast some brass Gaura*-Nitāi Deities in Australia. They came out very nice. You could talk to him. He might give you some good information. His name is Bhāskara. Brass is best, next to gold or silver. *But I think the other deities we shall just do in concrete, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and Lalitā, Viśākhā. Yes. Either concrete or hard plaster. Hmm? Hard plaster, tempered plaster, hydrostone. Yes. They will pay for the casting in Fiji? Hmm? The Indians in Fiji will pay for the casting if we decide to cast in brass here? Anyone will pay. (laughs) Kṛṣṇa will pay. What will be the cost, let me know. It will be paid by somebody. I will have to investigate. You will have it cast or you will cast it? We'll have it cast here. Actually, one boy is working with me now from Hawaii . . . But one thing, you can send one copy of this to Vṛndāvana to take casting cost there. They're also doing. Estimate. Perhaps they'll be able to do it cheaper in India. Hmm? They'll definitely be able to do it cheaper in India. Then if they can do cheaper, why not cast there? The transport. Transport is the same. You have to transport from here, they will have to transport from . . . *Hmm. Nanda*-kiśora, or someone else? You send to Akṣayānanda. Akṣayānanda. (long pause) Prahlāda Mahārāja said there is no necessity for endeavoring for economic development. Very difficult to understand this philosophy. People don't know how they'll survive if they don't get money. No. We are actual examples. We are not after economic development, but we are after following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. People criticize us sometimes because they always see . . . No, what do we care for them? We go on with our own business. Actually, they are all envious because they see that without working we are getting such nice facility. No, we are working, but working for Kṛṣṇa. Yes. That is the difference. I went to the bank the other day to take out some money for the Press, and I took out a few thousand dollars. I had to take it in small bills. And there were karmīs there, and they were yelling, "They should be thrown out of town!" They said? Yes, they were very angry, because they don't make that much money in over two months. The Communists also, they are envious of these capitalists. The rich. "Make the rich pay," that's their slogan. But the leaders of the Communists are rich. Hmm? The leaders of the Communists are all rich, and the people don't notice. Andha , blind. That Russia, that, what is that, Communist leader? Nikolien? Nikolien? Lenin? Breshnev? Kruschev? *Kruschev. Kruschev. He was making money, therefore he was driven out. His son*-in-law, his sons, were being employed, neopolism, what is called? Nepotism. Nepotism. That is human nature. They said he was becoming too friendly with the West, getting too many Western ideas. Who? Kruschev. So they kicked him out. (knock at the door) Yes? Answer the door. In England, their whole difficulty with the labor . . . (door is opened) Let him in. It's Govinda dāsī. Tell her to come in. But the union problem they have in England, that's why the whole country now is in disruption, because the labor is always on strike. They did a survey, and they found out that all the major union leaders are Communists. And they're making money. When I was there I remember every month there would be a major strike in the car industry, in the shipping industry. All the major industries there was always a major strike every . . . and it would completely devastate the economy. The foreign businesses no longer have confidence in England, because if they make some order maybe it will not be fulfilled. Hmm? The foreign business no longer has confidence. I heard that England had sold military weapons to Israel, and when Israel was fighting the war they called England, "Immediately send replacements for the weapons." "No, I'm sorry, we are on strike, there's no . . . we cannot send replacements." So in this way there is no longer confidence in England for business, international business. Now in South America it has become fashionable . . . there are many, many wealthy businessmen living there. So terrorists will kidnap a businessman and then send a letter to the company in the United States or in that country, stating that, "If you do not send us such and such million dollars, we will kill him." So in this way the terrorists are getting millions of dollars by kidnapping big men. Businessmen. It's happening quite often in South America now. Yes. That's going on everywhere. There was a . . . John Paul Getty's nephew in Italy, he was taken by kidnappers, and they petitioned Getty, "Give us so many millions of dollars, otherwise we'll kill your nephew." So he refused. So after a long, long time the nephew was returned somehow or other, and one of the times when they demanded a ransom, they chopped off his right ear and put it in an envelope and sent it through the post, "This is proof that we have your nephew. Now give us money." And still he refused. And then eventually the boy was returned, minus his ear. As you were saying, you were just saying Prabhupāda, that even when they have so much money they want more. This man is one of the richest men in the world, and for his own family member he would not pay some money to save him. Who is that man? Getty. He just died. Just a few days ago he died. In England. One of the richest men in the world. Two of the richest Americans have just died. Howard Hughes. Howard Hughes was considered the richest man in the country, and they found him dying in a hotel room of malnutrition. He had become so afraid of death that he would wear a mask over his face to avoid germs, and he would be changing his clothes constantly, and he was living terrified of dying and losing his money. So in this way, in his last several years he became mad, just with fear that he was going to die. (pause) What is your next publication? Mine? Portuguese and Spanish? *In a few days we will be sending to the printer a complete Portuguese Bhagavad*-gītā and Spanish Kṛṣṇa Book . I think within one week perhaps we will have. After one or two weeks, we will send both to the printer. Where is the editorial department? Here. That's why I'm here. For Spanish and also Portuguese. I just received information that in Caracas they were selling every day one thousand Bhāgavatams . Wow! What is the price? Each book about two and a half dollars. That means about three thousand dollars daily? That's very big. And they have been defeated by Mexico. (laughs) Mexico is selling more? *Yes. This month . . . last month in Mexico they sent in for the month $23,000, for a month. Now the . . . all of South America combined this month has almost defeated Rādhā*-Dāmodara. (Prabhupāda laughs) Almost on the same level now, South America. (chuckling) This competition must go on. (laughter) That is tangible. Jaya . That is a fulfil . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- June 10, 1976, Los Angeles This is one . . . (indistinct) No, just a sample. (pause) The total height is forty inches. Kṛṣṇa is twenty and Kāliya is another twenty inches. That's nice. So I think we could try casting it in bronze. Bronze. Bronze will not be polished? *It is the American or the Western version of the aṣṭa*-dhātu . Oh, that is all right. *Or, not aṣṭa*-dhātu , but bell metal. It will be polished? Yes, you can polish very nicely. I've never seen bronze polished. It depends on the quality, grade. Generally they don't use a very high percentage of brass. You think it's better than brass? It's a little cheaper. Bronze is very good. I've never seen it polished. Hmm? I've never seen it highly polished. Yes, that is the problem. Why not make brass? Out of brass? Bronze is harder. Bronze is harder. No, why harder? You can make softer. Metal . . . Gold is softer still. It will be much more brilliant, more beautiful in brass than bronze. Generally . . . *Brass, just like our Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity in Māyāpur, how dazzling. Here also, in Boston. I think Kṛṣṇa is German silver. No. Maybe. Not so much brass casting going on in this country. Mostly bronze casting. Bronze, but it will not be polished. We want polished. I have to investigate it. Bright face. *There's a boy that was in New York who cast some brass Gaura*-Nitāi Deities in Australia. They came out very nice. You could talk to him. He might give you some good information. His name is Bhāskara. Brass is best, next to gold or silver. *But I think the other deities we shall just do in concrete, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and Lalitā, Viśākhā. Yes. Either concrete or hard plaster. Hmm? Hard plaster, tempered plaster, hydrostone. Yes. They will pay for the casting in Fiji? Hmm? The Indians in Fiji will pay for the casting if we decide to cast in brass here? Anyone will pay. (laughs) Kṛṣṇa will pay. What will be the cost, let me know. It will be paid by somebody. I will have to investigate. You will have it cast or you will cast it? We'll have it cast here. Actually, one boy is working with me now from Hawaii . . . But one thing, you can send one copy of this to Vṛndāvana to take casting cost there. They're also doing. Estimate. Perhaps they'll be able to do it cheaper in India. Hmm? They'll definitely be able to do it cheaper in India. Then if they can do cheaper, why not cast there? The transport. Transport is the same. You have to transport from here, they will have to transport from . . . *Hmm. Nanda*-kiśora, or someone else? You send to Akṣayānanda. Akṣayānanda. (long pause) Prahlāda Mahārāja said there is no necessity for endeavoring for economic development. Very difficult to understand this philosophy. People don't know how they'll survive if they don't get money. No. We are actual examples. We are not after economic development, but we are after following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. People criticize us sometimes because they always see . . . No, what do we care for them? We go on with our own business. Actually, they are all envious because they see that without working we are getting such nice facility. No, we are working, but working for Kṛṣṇa. Yes. That is the difference. I went to the bank the other day to take out some money for the Press, and I took out a few thousand dollars. I had to take it in small bills. And there were karmīs there, and they were yelling, "They should be thrown out of town!" They said? Yes, they were very angry, because they don't make that much money in over two months. The Communists also, they are envious of these capitalists. The rich. "Make the rich pay," that's their slogan. But the leaders of the Communists are rich. Hmm? The leaders of the Communists are all rich, and the people don't notice. Andha , blind. That Russia, that, what is that, Communist leader? Nikolien? Nikolien? Lenin? Breshnev? Kruschev? *Kruschev. Kruschev. He was making money, therefore he was driven out. His son*-in-law, his sons, were being employed, neopolism, what is called? Nepotism. Nepotism. That is human nature. They said he was becoming too friendly with the West, getting too many Western ideas. Who? Kruschev. So they kicked him out. (knock at the door) Yes? Answer the door. In England, their whole difficulty with the labor . . . (door is opened) Let him in. It's Govinda dāsī. Tell her to come in. But the union problem they have in England, that's why the whole country now is in disruption, because the labor is always on strike. They did a survey, and they found out that all the major union leaders are Communists. And they're making money. When I was there I remember every month there would be a major strike in the car industry, in the shipping industry. All the major industries there was always a major strike every . . . and it would completely devastate the economy. The foreign businesses no longer have confidence in England, because if they make some order maybe it will not be fulfilled. Hmm? The foreign business no longer has confidence. I heard that England had sold military weapons to Israel, and when Israel was fighting the war they called England, "Immediately send replacements for the weapons." "No, I'm sorry, we are on strike, there's no . . . we cannot send replacements." So in this way there is no longer confidence in England for business, international business. Now in South America it has become fashionable . . . there are many, many wealthy businessmen living there. So terrorists will kidnap a businessman and then send a letter to the company in the United States or in that country, stating that, "If you do not send us such and such million dollars, we will kill him." So in this way the terrorists are getting millions of dollars by kidnapping big men. Businessmen. It's happening quite often in South America now. Yes. That's going on everywhere. There was a . . . John Paul Getty's nephew in Italy, he was taken by kidnappers, and they petitioned Getty, "Give us so many millions of dollars, otherwise we'll kill your nephew." So he refused. So after a long, long time the nephew was returned somehow or other, and one of the times when they demanded a ransom, they chopped off his right ear and put it in an envelope and sent it through the post, "This is proof that we have your nephew. Now give us money." And still he refused. And then eventually the boy was returned, minus his ear. As you were saying, you were just saying Prabhupāda, that even when they have so much money they want more. This man is one of the richest men in the world, and for his own family member he would not pay some money to save him. Who is that man? Getty. He just died. Just a few days ago he died. In England. One of the richest men in the world. Two of the richest Americans have just died. Howard Hughes. Howard Hughes was considered the richest man in the country, and they found him dying in a hotel room of malnutrition. He had become so afraid of death that he would wear a mask over his face to avoid germs, and he would be changing his clothes constantly, and he was living terrified of dying and losing his money. So in this way, in his last several years he became mad, just with fear that he was going to die. (pause) What is your next publication? Mine? Portuguese and Spanish? *In a few days we will be sending to the printer a complete Portuguese Bhagavad*-gītā and Spanish Kṛṣṇa Book . I think within one week perhaps we will have. After one or two weeks, we will send both to the printer. Where is the editorial department? Here. That's why I'm here. For Spanish and also Portuguese. I just received information that in Caracas they were selling every day one thousand Bhāgavatams . Wow! What is the price? Each book about two and a half dollars. That means about three thousand dollars daily? That's very big. And they have been defeated by Mexico. (laughs) Mexico is selling more? *Yes. This month . . . last month in Mexico they sent in for the month $23,000, for a month. Now the . . . all of South America combined this month has almost defeated Rādhā*-Dāmodara. (Prabhupāda laughs) Almost on the same level now, South America. (chuckling) This competition must go on. (laughter) That is tangible. Jaya . That is a fulfil . . . (break) (end) Conversation with Congressman Jackie Vaughn -- June 12, 1976, Detroit (Jackie Vaughn - Black Congressman) Lekhaśravantī (Walter Reuther's daughter): This is Jackie Vaughn. He's a member of the House of Representatives of Michigan. He's come to speak to you. Thank you very much. He came also last year. He's very impressed by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa is black, and we worship Him. (laughter) You have seen our Deity? Yes. Kṛṣṇa is from your community. (Prabhupāda laughs) There is no question of black and white. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above the skin—the soul which is there. Either he's black or white or yellow, it doesn't matter. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). This is the first education, that do not take the body, but the living force within the body. That is important; we have to understand that. We are talking from that platform. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult, because people are very much absorbed with bodily concept of life. But our philosophy begins from that platform where there is no more bodily concept of life. Therefore it is little difficult. (pause) So any question also? You've been reading from Prabhupāda's books? Yes. I continue to search. If you have any questions, you can ask him. The last time I was here you were kind enough to address to the basic point—we're in the world, and yet how can we not be a part of the world. Hmm? He says we're in the world, but how can we be aloof from it? How can we not be a part of it? It is knowledge. Just like we are moving with this body, but still we know perfectly well that we are not this body. Just like you may move in your car, but you are perfectly aware that you are not the car. When you drive on your car, do you not know that you are not the car, car is different from you? Huh? Don't you know that? Right. *Similarly, by cultivation of knowledge one can remain in the car and still he can know that he is not the car. The example is given: just like coconut. Coconut, within the shell, green shell, there is coconut. And when it is dry, if you move you'll understand that the coconut is now separate—(makes sound) cut*-cut-cut-cut. At that time it is taken away for extracting oil. So this is practical. In the beginning, green coconut, nobody can perceive that there is coconut within the shell and it can be separated. But at a time it can be known that the coconut is separated from the shell, and if you move it, it will make cut-cut-cut. That is the process. It is by action. When after hearing theoretical that you are separate from this body, if you cultivate that knowledge, then time will come when you'll perceive practically that we are not this body. That means in higher stage of spiritual consciousness the bodily activities, material bodily activities, will stop. Only Kṛṣṇa activities will go on. So that just like the coconut fruit is separate from the shell, similarly, even living within this body he will be separated from the body. Jīvan mukta sa ucyate. The Sanskrit word is he's liberated even in this life, while living in this body. That requires cultivation of the knowledge and practical activities. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not all of a sudden, but there is stage when it will be experienced that he is not this body, he is separate from the body. My work, I try to do more for people, especially poor people. Everyone tries. That is not a particular job for you. Everyone is trying; the cats and dogs, they are also trying. The cat also very much anxious to give protection to the cubs, innocent, helpless. The dog also giving. The birds, they're bringing food for the offspring, and as soon as the mother comes, they become very much engladdened, "Oh, here is food, here is food." And they, with the mouth, they . . . so this kind of sentiment is there even in the cats, dogs, animals, birds, beasts. That is natural. But we do not know how to do actual welfare activity. Somebody's engaged with his family. Somebody is engaged with his own body. Somebody . . . this is only development of consciousness. The animal, they are interested with the body, himself. The human being, they are interested with the extension of the body. Just like I am alone now. Now when I become, you young men, then I have got my wife, then my interest is also for my wife. The wife's interest is for the husband. In this way, children; *then interest extended: husband, wife, children. Then, this is family*-wise. Then little advancement, for the society. Little advancement, community. Just like in your country, the sense of black community, white community. Then, above that, for the nation. When there is war between America and other nation, then you black and white people forget the small interest for national interest. You advance to fight, to lay down your life. So in this way we can make progress, but such progress is not perfection. Such progress is not perfection. The example is given, just like there is tree, and the whole tree is full of branches, twigs and leaves and flowers and fruits. So somebody is watering the fruit, somebody is watering the leaf, somebody is watering the branches, somebody the twigs, but everyone is improper. One who is watering the root, he's perfect. He knows how to do things. If you water the root of the tree, it will go to the twigs, it will go to the leaves, it will go to the fruit, it will go to the flower. One who does not know the root, however he might be working very diligently for the poor humanity or community or society, they will never be successful to gain the result—peace and prosperity. They are forgetting the root. And root is God. So they must put water into the root. Then it will be all right. Otherwise, it will be all failure. The history of the world is like that. They are trying for the nation, for the society, for the community and for the family, but everything has become unsuccessful. I suppose we could use the same analogy for black and white getting together. Ofttimes, we all become impatient because of the progress appears to be so very, very slow. Slow, but sure, that is wanted. If you are slow, it is not bad, but it must be sure. But if you become very busy without any surety, then what is this? Simply waste of time. Slow . . . there is English word, "Slow but sure." Slow but sure. Sure. So what we are proposing, that is sure success. And all other things, they are very busy but no success. This is the difference. So what is the use of that business if you are going to be failure? So we see from the history these attempts have always been failure. Now this man who constructed this house, he never thought that I shall come here to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So his attempt is failure. Neither did he envision I would come here to hear you. (laughs) So these small affairs, they'll be failure. Whatever they are busy now in the material world, everything will be failure. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if you execute a little bit of it, it can save you from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. (to devotee) Find out this verse. 2.40. "In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear." Purport. Purport: "Activity in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or acting for the benefit of Kṛṣṇa without expectation of sense gratification, is the highest transcendental quality of work. Even a small beginning of such activity finds no impediment, nor can that small beginning be lost at any stage. Any work begun on the material plane has to be completed, otherwise the whole attempt becomes a failure. But any work begun in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has a permanent effect, even though not finished. The performer of such work is therefore not at a loss even if his work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is incomplete. One percent done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness bears permanent results, so that the next beginning is from the point of two percent; *whereas, in material activity, without one*-hundred-percent success, there is no profit. Ajāmila performed his duty in some percentage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but the result he enjoyed at the end was one hundred percent, by the grace of the Lord. There is a nice verse in this connection in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: 'If someone gives up sense-gratificatory pursuits and works in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part? And, what gain if one performs his material activities perfectly?' (SB 1.5.17) Or, as the Christians say, 'What profiteth a man if he gains the whole world yet suffers the loss of his eternal soul?' Material activities and their results end with the body. But work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness carries the person again to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even after the loss of the body. At least one is sure to have a chance in the next life of being born again as a human being, either in the family of a great cultured brāhmaṇa or in a rich aristocratic family, that will give one a further chance for elevation. That is the unique quality of work done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So everyone should join this movement and be sure of his activity, result, good result. That is real United Nation—to work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Every, any department, if we work for Kṛṣṇa, then it is perfect. That is sure. And it is open to everyone. Now this American government is giving so much welfare contribution, but still they are not happy. Hmm? Huge amount is spent in welfare activities, but still they are dissatisfied. Then how you can make them satisfied? The American government is practically giving money to the sufferers, and why they are still suffering? What is the answer? It's not clear. Prabhupāda is saying that even though the American government is giving so much money to suffering people, still the suffering is there, there's no improvement in the condition. So why? What is the cause? What is the answer? I think it's all in the theory. We are not making first things first. That means whatever we do, we do in ignorance. You do not know what is the first thing or what to do first. That we are correcting. Here is the first thing: pour water in the root. Right. We are correcting—Kṛṣṇa, or God, then everything will be all right. Otherwise failure. Now you American people, you write, "In God We Trust." Huh? But if I ask you "What is God?" you cannot reply. Then how do you trust in God? Blindly. If we trust in God, we must know that God is actually the only trustworthy person. Then if I put my trust in Him, that is sensible. But if I do not know what is God, no idea, and if we simply write, "In God We Trust," what is this? This is slogan. But actually people are becoming godless. In school, colleges, they are prohibiting, "Don't talk of God." Do they not? That's a fact. Yes. And in the bills they are writing the . . . why this hypocrisy? Why this hypocrisy? In the school, colleges, you are forbidding, "Don't talk of God," and on the bills you are writing, "In God We Trust." That means if the bill is not paid, don't be dissatisfied; you trust in God. (laughs) Although I'm giving you a piece of paper, don't hesitate to take it. Trust in God, it will be paid. They write, "I promise to pay," but people may not have faith in this word. Actually, I'm paying you hundred rupees or a thousand rupees' worth currency note, but actually it is paper. But only on faith and trust I'm accepting it, it is one thousand dollars. That much. In last war, the Germany, marks note were thrown in the street. And the bunch of note, taken to the confectioner, "Give me a piece of bread," there is no bread; they throw away. It happened, actually. So these notes are accepted on the understanding that the government will pay. But time may be there when government may be not able to pay. And it has become practically experienced in the last war. So everything should be done scientifically. If we say that in God we trust, then we must know what is God, whether actually we can put our faith and trust in Him, whether He is trustworthy, what is that God. This science should be introduced. There is a science; we are preaching that science. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to teach Kṛṣṇa science, science of Kṛṣṇa, science of God. So the government should take up, American government, and cooperate with us, teach the people the science of God. Then it will be a great, benevolent welfare activity. Simply giving their money to the poor, to the needy, will not help them. That's an immediate need, and . . . Immediate, you can think like that, but there is no benefit, immediate or belated. There is no actual benefit. The unmarried girls are given this welfare . . . what is called? Welfare check. But still they are killing their children, becoming more and more involved in sinful activities. As a lawmaker, I'd like to change that whole, what we call, vicious cycle. *You can change, but if you do not change for the real good, then time will come, another change, another change. That is going on. Just like in Russia they wanted to change. They brought in revolution. But what is changed? They are still begging grains from America. So what is the use of that change? If you have to beg from other country for your food, then what is the benefit of such change? So this is going on: one thing established, and again it is changed. That is described in the śāstra: punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Chewing the chewed. Just like sugarcane. One has taken the juice by chewing and thrown it in the street, and somebody again takes it and chew it, what he will get it? It is already chewed. Experiment. So all, everything has been experimented. Big, big empires, big, big society, big, big nation. That Hitler, he wanted to make something big. Napoleon wanted to make something big. Nothing big has been done. Where is Napoleon? Where is Hitler? So these are all temporary attempts. It is sure to be failure. Because they do not know how to do things. That is the defect. They are simply imagining, concoction. Here is a practical and sure proposal in the Bhagavad-gītā. God comes, and He's giving personal instruction, that "Do things like this." Your economic problem, your political problem, your social problem, everything, you ask any question, any problem, the answer is there, perfect. All problems. So why people should not take this perfect answer to all problems? That is intelligence. Experiment we have made so many, materially. They have all failed. We were under British rule. So where is that British rule now? And before that, there was Roman Empire, Carthagian Empire, Egyptian Empire—so many—Mogul Empire, then British Empire, now your American Empire. But these things will not help. Every one of our presidential candidates is continuing to talk in the same vein, promising and promising all of a temporary nature of solution to our problems. No. Solution is here, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You take this movement after studying it scrutinizingly. You'll find, "Yes, this is the only movement for solution of all problems." I think we go back to what you said at the beginning: we trust primarily in the dollar, "In God We Trust." That is only slogan . . . Yeah, right. . . . but if we trust somebody when we know, "Yes, he is trustworthy," that is better. Blindly trusting may not endure. But knowingly trust, that will be beneficial. As a lawmaker for the State of Michigan, every day I'm struggling. I know what you're saying. I would like to. And then my surrounding is what they call much more practical. No, it is also practical. We do not propose anything which is impractical. But it's so . . . What do you think in our movement is impractical? I have given you a practical example, that you are paying so much money to the suffering women, especially who have got children but no husband. So, but what is the result? They're not satisfied. They're still committing sinful activity. So the money, giving money, we're giving, is no solution. That is practical. And here, the same girl, I do not give any money, but by Kṛṣṇa consciousness they're satisfied. It is practical. So therefore people should be enlightened with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then problems will be solved. Otherwise, immediately you give him some money, that money will be spent and no satisfaction. This is failure. Our monetary problem . . . actually, we have no monetary problem. Kṛṣṇa has given us money. Our expenditure is more than, I think, two hundred thousand dollars daily. Hmm? What is our total expenditure, can anyone say? Well, with all the construction, perhaps it's very high. *But we are getting money. We have no money, but still we can sit down in such a nice palace. This is practical. So money is not problem. The problem is godlessness. So as soon as there is godlessness, there will be suffering, different types of suffering. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā: Problem—māyā is problem. "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." Purport. *"The Supreme Personality of Godhead has innumerable energies, and all of these energies are divine. Although the living entities are part of His energies, and are therefore divine, due to contact with material energy their original superior power is covered. Being thus covered by material energy, one cannot possibly overcome its influence. As previously stated, both the material and spiritual natures, being emanations from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are eternal. The living entities belong to the eternal superior nature of the Lord, but due to contamination by the inferior nature, matter, their illusion is also eternal. The conditioned soul is therefore called nitya*-baddha, or eternally conditioned. No one can trace out the history of his becoming conditioned at a certain date in material history. Consequently, his release from the clutches of material nature is very difficult, even though that material nature is an inferior energy, because material energy is ultimately conducted by the Supreme Will, which the living entity cannot overcome. Inferior material nature is defined herein as divine nature due to its divine connection and movement by the divine will. Being conducted by the divine will, material nature, although inferior, acts so wonderfully in the construction and destruction of the cosmic manifestation that the Vedas confirm this as follows: māyāṁ tu prakṛtiṁ vidyān māyinaṁ tu maheśvaram (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 4.10). Although māyā is false and temporary, the background of māyā is the supreme magician, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is Maheśvara, the supreme controller. "Another meaning of guṇa is 'rope.' It is to be understood that the conditioned soul is tightly bound by the ropes of illusion. A man bound by the hands and feet cannot free himself. He must be helped by a person who is unbound, because the bound cannot help the bound; the rescuer must be liberated. Therefore only Lord Kṛṣṇa or His bona fide representative the spiritual master can release the conditioned soul. Without such superior help, one cannot be freed from the bondage of material nature. Devotional service, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can help one gain such release. Kṛṣṇa, being the Lord of the illusory energy, can order this insurmountable energy to release the conditioned soul. He orders this release out of His causeless mercy on the surrendered soul and out of His paternal affection for the living entity, who is originally a beloved son of the Lord. Therefore surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord is the only means to get free from the clutches of the stringent material nature. *"The words mām eva are also significant. Mām means unto Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, only, and not Brahmā or Śiva. Although Brahmā and Śiva are greatly elevated and are almost on the level of Viṣṇu, it is not possible for such incarnations of rajo*-guṇa (passion) and tamo-guṇa (ignorance) to release the conditioned soul from the clutches of māyā. In other words, both Brahmā and Śiva are also under the influence of māyā. Only Viṣṇu is the master of māyā. Therefore He alone can give release to the conditioned soul. The Vedas confirm this in the phrase tvam eva viditvā, or 'Freedom is possible only by understanding Kṛṣṇa.' Even Lord Śiva affirms that liberation can be achieved only by the mercy of Viṣṇu. Lord Śiva says, mukti-pradātā sarveṣāṁ viṣṇur eva na saṁśayaḥ: 'There is no doubt that Viṣṇu is the deliverer of liberation for everyone.' " Let start some . . . the institution is already there. We are conducting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if the government cooperates that a certain number of students must be trained up scientifically what is the meaning of God, that will be very much beneficial to the state or to the country. We can give solution for any problem. "We" means Kṛṣṇa. We are simply preaching Kṛṣṇa's message. Kṛṣṇa means God. Kṛṣṇa means "black" also. Kṛṣṇa, this word, (chuckles) means "black" also. You are following? Another meaning of kṛṣṇa is blackish. Black is beautiful? He said, "Black is beautiful?" *Why not? He's the most beautiful. Otherwise, why people are attracted? There is a verse in Brahma*-saṁhitā: kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobham; *barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda*-sundarāṅgam (BS 5.30). He has got one peacock feather on His head, and He's blackish, but wonderfully beautiful. These words are used. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya. He's so beautiful that thousands of Cupids cannot be compared with His beauty. Cupid is understood to be the most beautiful person within this universe. You know Cupid? Yes. He enchants by beauty. But Kṛṣṇa's beauty is so great that millions of beauty, kandarpa, or Cupid, cannot be compared with Him. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi (BS 5.30). It is a question of attraction. It is not a question of black and white. Attraction. So unless Kṛṣṇa is beautiful, why He has got so many millions of devotees? This very word is kandarpa-koṭi. Barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam. His blackness is compared with the black cloud. Asita-ambuda. Ambuda means the cloud. The black cloud is full of water. When there is black cloud in the sky, you can be sure that the rain is going to fall down. Not the white cloud. White cloud means no water. Is it not? (chuckles) *So you understand this philosophy and add water to the suffering humanity. They are suffering in the burning, blazing fire of material existence. So blazing fire can be extinguished when the water falls from the sky, not by your fire brigade. When there is blazing fire in the forest, it is beyond your control. You cannot get there fire brigade. So these small attempts of fire brigade is useless to extinguish the blazing fire of this material existence. The water must come from the cloud. That is by Kṛṣṇa's grace. You have no control over the cloud. But that water wanted. Not your fire brigade water, when there is all around blazing fire. The small fire brigade—(imitates bell) dung*-dung-dung-dung-dung. It can vibrate very loudly—dung-dung-dung—"I'm going to, going to," but they'll go when everything finished. That is practical. I have seen in India. There was a fire in a house, and they came late, when the business is finished. And still they're insisting, "We shall pour some water." (laughter) Everyone asked them that "What is the use of?" "No, this is our system." (laughter) The house is burnt into ashes, and they are looking the formality, "Yes, we must put some water," so that they can write in their books, "Here we attended the fire and we have . . ." (laughter) This cheating is going on. In every problem, this kind of cheating is going on. Official, that's all. The same example: you ask to the charity-taker of welfare activities. The fire is going on, but officially the government satisfied, "Yes, we are after all pouring water." So what is the use of pouring water if the fire is going on? But officially, that's all. We must see that the purpose is being carried. No. The house is burnt into ashes, but we are satisfied that our fire brigade man has poured some water, that's all. They do not know that they cannot do any benefit to anyone by this imperfect process. If the whole money of the government is given to us, we can show result within six months how it is beneficial. Will the government give us money? (pause) Actually, people do not want to trust in God. That is the real fact. But this writing of slogan is a formal . . . (indistinct) . . . at the present moment, nobody has got any idea of God nor faith in God. What do you think? Nobody's got any . . .? Idea of God, and what to speak of faith in God, or trust in God. It's true. Very little faith. "In God We Trust," no. Your original statement. Prabhupāda wrote one letter to the secretary of the President explaining that "You write on your bills 'In God We Trust,' but who is it that knows about God?" So he was asking if it was possible for the government, they could give us some aid and we would educate. We can educate the people. No, I did not ask for any aid. Oh. If they would . . . You can get the copy. I never asked for any aid. No, I didn't mean monetary or anything like that. (pause) (Hari-śauri goes to get letter) Read it. *"Personal Secretary to the President, Office of the President of the United States, White House, Washington, D.C. Dear Sir: On your new two*-dollar note it is stated 'In God We Trust,' and directly beneath, 'Declaration of Independence, 1776.' On the two-hundredth anniversary of this occasion, why not begin teaching the science of God as described in the Vedic literatures, like the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is authorized and appreciated by all learned professors in the universities throughout the whole world? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on since 1966 throughout the whole world, especially in the United States of America. It is a great fortune for the American people that they trust in God. Why shouldn't this spiritual education be given to the American people in an organized way? The whole world is going down and becoming godless. If the American people, who trust in God constitutionally, take this movement seriously, it will be a great service to the human society. We are prepared to cooperate in this connection if the American government takes it very seriously. Awaiting your reply with interest. Yours sincerely, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami." Dated May 9th. Any answer? No reply. That was three weeks back. Four weeks; over a month. May 19th? May 9th. Oh. (pause) Why they have not replied? I suppose you were asking too much. (laughs) Too much? So am I wrong? No, not at all. I'm not asking for money. I know. But you are doing away with our approach to dealing with problems. As you pointed out so well, it's always piecemeal, of a temporary nature. I do it in Lansing. We have a problem, we patch it up, of a temporary nature. We talk to do this, as a quick answer, solution, and we go away feeling better, that we have at least made, as we say, a step in the right direction. Next year, we'll be back with the same problem. I have this problem. Everyone. Everyone. Monday I'll go back to the State Capitol . . . *That is explained, daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). We think, "Now this problem is solved," but actually it is not solved; *it has created another problem. Therefore this word is used, daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā. You . . . the problems are so great that you cannot solve it. Each year it mounts. Yes. It's getting larger and larger, almost impossible to solve. Exactly, yes. Each year we say, "This year is worse than any year in the history." See, this is the experienced government officer's statement. Therefore the word is used, duratyayā. What is the meaning of duratyayā? "Very difficult to overcome." I submit, I contribute to that delinquency. I help every day, trying to find answers, always of a temporary nature. So you kindly give little attention to this movement. It will solve all the problems. You have read some of our books? No. Yes. *We have all answers to the problems in the Bhagavad*-gītā, but who is hearing us? The problems and the solutions, they are all mentioned. They are given very nicely. But we do not take it. We create our own solution, imperfect solution. I'm struggling. Everyone is struggling. Just like you pour water on the leaf of the tree, and still it will fall down. He's perplexed, that "I am giving water to the leaf every day. How it is that it is dying?" But he never thinks that "I have not done properly; therefore the leaf is dying." He does not know what is the proper way. So things, if they are not done properly, it will not produce the desired result. That is going on. (pause) (very loud kīrtana in background) You have seen our Deities? Our Deity, Kṛṣṇa? Have you seen the Deities in the temple? Yes. I am very fortunate. Twice I've been before you. Thank you. Oh, that's nice. I'm very grateful. Whenever you find time, please come. I will. Yes. You'll get so many inspiration. (pause) The pathways in the garden, if they are occasionally washed, as far as possible, grow . . . (break) *. . . yātrā. Today is celebration of snāna*-yātrā, so . . . (break) July 18th. *Today is snāna*-yātrā, disappearance of Mukunda Datta and Śrīdhara Paṇḍita and full moon. Tomorrow is disappearance of Śyāmānanda Gosvāmī. . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) Conversation with Congressman Jackie Vaughn -- June 12, 1976, Detroit (Jackie Vaughn - Black Congressman) Lekhaśravantī (Walter Reuther's daughter): This is Jackie Vaughn. He's a member of the House of Representatives of Michigan. He's come to speak to you. Thank you very much. He came also last year. He's very impressed by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa is black, and we worship Him. (laughter) You have seen our Deity? Yes. Kṛṣṇa is from your community. (Prabhupāda laughs) There is no question of black and white. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above the skin—the soul which is there. Either he's black or white or yellow, it doesn't matter. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). This is the first education, that do not take the body, but the living force within the body. That is important; we have to understand that. We are talking from that platform. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult, because people are very much absorbed with bodily concept of life. But our philosophy begins from that platform where there is no more bodily concept of life. Therefore it is little difficult. (pause) So any question also? You've been reading from Prabhupāda's books? Yes. I continue to search. If you have any questions, you can ask him. The last time I was here you were kind enough to address to the basic point—we're in the world, and yet how can we not be a part of the world. Hmm? He says we're in the world, but how can we be aloof from it? How can we not be a part of it? It is knowledge. Just like we are moving with this body, but still we know perfectly well that we are not this body. Just like you may move in your car, but you are perfectly aware that you are not the car. When you drive on your car, do you not know that you are not the car, car is different from you? Huh? Don't you know that? Right. *Similarly, by cultivation of knowledge one can remain in the car and still he can know that he is not the car. The example is given: just like coconut. Coconut, within the shell, green shell, there is coconut. And when it is dry, if you move you'll understand that the coconut is now separate—(makes sound) cut*-cut-cut-cut. At that time it is taken away for extracting oil. So this is practical. In the beginning, green coconut, nobody can perceive that there is coconut within the shell and it can be separated. But at a time it can be known that the coconut is separated from the shell, and if you move it, it will make cut-cut-cut. That is the process. It is by action. When after hearing theoretical that you are separate from this body, if you cultivate that knowledge, then time will come when you'll perceive practically that we are not this body. That means in higher stage of spiritual consciousness the bodily activities, material bodily activities, will stop. Only Kṛṣṇa activities will go on. So that just like the coconut fruit is separate from the shell, similarly, even living within this body he will be separated from the body. Jīvan mukta sa ucyate. The Sanskrit word is he's liberated even in this life, while living in this body. That requires cultivation of the knowledge and practical activities. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not all of a sudden, but there is stage when it will be experienced that he is not this body, he is separate from the body. My work, I try to do more for people, especially poor people. Everyone tries. That is not a particular job for you. Everyone is trying; the cats and dogs, they are also trying. The cat also very much anxious to give protection to the cubs, innocent, helpless. The dog also giving. The birds, they're bringing food for the offspring, and as soon as the mother comes, they become very much engladdened, "Oh, here is food, here is food." And they, with the mouth, they . . . so this kind of sentiment is there even in the cats, dogs, animals, birds, beasts. That is natural. But we do not know how to do actual welfare activity. Somebody's engaged with his family. Somebody is engaged with his own body. Somebody . . . this is only development of consciousness. The animal, they are interested with the body, himself. The human being, they are interested with the extension of the body. Just like I am alone now. Now when I become, you young men, then I have got my wife, then my interest is also for my wife. The wife's interest is for the husband. In this way, children; *then interest extended: husband, wife, children. Then, this is family*-wise. Then little advancement, for the society. Little advancement, community. Just like in your country, the sense of black community, white community. Then, above that, for the nation. When there is war between America and other nation, then you black and white people forget the small interest for national interest. You advance to fight, to lay down your life. So in this way we can make progress, but such progress is not perfection. Such progress is not perfection. The example is given, just like there is tree, and the whole tree is full of branches, twigs and leaves and flowers and fruits. So somebody is watering the fruit, somebody is watering the leaf, somebody is watering the branches, somebody the twigs, but everyone is improper. One who is watering the root, he's perfect. He knows how to do things. If you water the root of the tree, it will go to the twigs, it will go to the leaves, it will go to the fruit, it will go to the flower. One who does not know the root, however he might be working very diligently for the poor humanity or community or society, they will never be successful to gain the result—peace and prosperity. They are forgetting the root. And root is God. So they must put water into the root. Then it will be all right. Otherwise, it will be all failure. The history of the world is like that. They are trying for the nation, for the society, for the community and for the family, but everything has become unsuccessful. I suppose we could use the same analogy for black and white getting together. Ofttimes, we all become impatient because of the progress appears to be so very, very slow. Slow, but sure, that is wanted. If you are slow, it is not bad, but it must be sure. But if you become very busy without any surety, then what is this? Simply waste of time. Slow . . . there is English word, "Slow but sure." Slow but sure. Sure. So what we are proposing, that is sure success. And all other things, they are very busy but no success. This is the difference. So what is the use of that business if you are going to be failure? So we see from the history these attempts have always been failure. Now this man who constructed this house, he never thought that I shall come here to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So his attempt is failure. Neither did he envision I would come here to hear you. (laughs) So these small affairs, they'll be failure. Whatever they are busy now in the material world, everything will be failure. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if you execute a little bit of it, it can save you from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. (to devotee) Find out this verse. 2.40. "In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear." Purport. Purport: "Activity in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or acting for the benefit of Kṛṣṇa without expectation of sense gratification, is the highest transcendental quality of work. Even a small beginning of such activity finds no impediment, nor can that small beginning be lost at any stage. Any work begun on the material plane has to be completed, otherwise the whole attempt becomes a failure. But any work begun in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has a permanent effect, even though not finished. The performer of such work is therefore not at a loss even if his work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is incomplete. One percent done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness bears permanent results, so that the next beginning is from the point of two percent; *whereas, in material activity, without one*-hundred-percent success, there is no profit. Ajāmila performed his duty in some percentage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but the result he enjoyed at the end was one hundred percent, by the grace of the Lord. There is a nice verse in this connection in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: 'If someone gives up sense-gratificatory pursuits and works in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part? And, what gain if one performs his material activities perfectly?' (SB 1.5.17) Or, as the Christians say, 'What profiteth a man if he gains the whole world yet suffers the loss of his eternal soul?' Material activities and their results end with the body. But work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness carries the person again to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even after the loss of the body. At least one is sure to have a chance in the next life of being born again as a human being, either in the family of a great cultured brāhmaṇa or in a rich aristocratic family, that will give one a further chance for elevation. That is the unique quality of work done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So everyone should join this movement and be sure of his activity, result, good result. That is real United Nation—to work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Every, any department, if we work for Kṛṣṇa, then it is perfect. That is sure. And it is open to everyone. Now this American government is giving so much welfare contribution, but still they are not happy. Hmm? Huge amount is spent in welfare activities, but still they are dissatisfied. Then how you can make them satisfied? The American government is practically giving money to the sufferers, and why they are still suffering? What is the answer? It's not clear. Prabhupāda is saying that even though the American government is giving so much money to suffering people, still the suffering is there, there's no improvement in the condition. So why? What is the cause? What is the answer? I think it's all in the theory. We are not making first things first. That means whatever we do, we do in ignorance. You do not know what is the first thing or what to do first. That we are correcting. Here is the first thing: pour water in the root. Right. We are correcting—Kṛṣṇa, or God, then everything will be all right. Otherwise failure. Now you American people, you write, "In God We Trust." Huh? But if I ask you "What is God?" you cannot reply. Then how do you trust in God? Blindly. If we trust in God, we must know that God is actually the only trustworthy person. Then if I put my trust in Him, that is sensible. But if I do not know what is God, no idea, and if we simply write, "In God We Trust," what is this? This is slogan. But actually people are becoming godless. In school, colleges, they are prohibiting, "Don't talk of God." Do they not? That's a fact. Yes. And in the bills they are writing the . . . why this hypocrisy? Why this hypocrisy? In the school, colleges, you are forbidding, "Don't talk of God," and on the bills you are writing, "In God We Trust." That means if the bill is not paid, don't be dissatisfied; you trust in God. (laughs) Although I'm giving you a piece of paper, don't hesitate to take it. Trust in God, it will be paid. They write, "I promise to pay," but people may not have faith in this word. Actually, I'm paying you hundred rupees or a thousand rupees' worth currency note, but actually it is paper. But only on faith and trust I'm accepting it, it is one thousand dollars. That much. In last war, the Germany, marks note were thrown in the street. And the bunch of note, taken to the confectioner, "Give me a piece of bread," there is no bread; they throw away. It happened, actually. So these notes are accepted on the understanding that the government will pay. But time may be there when government may be not able to pay. And it has become practically experienced in the last war. So everything should be done scientifically. If we say that in God we trust, then we must know what is God, whether actually we can put our faith and trust in Him, whether He is trustworthy, what is that God. This science should be introduced. There is a science; we are preaching that science. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to teach Kṛṣṇa science, science of Kṛṣṇa, science of God. So the government should take up, American government, and cooperate with us, teach the people the science of God. Then it will be a great, benevolent welfare activity. Simply giving their money to the poor, to the needy, will not help them. That's an immediate need, and . . . Immediate, you can think like that, but there is no benefit, immediate or belated. There is no actual benefit. The unmarried girls are given this welfare . . . what is called? Welfare check. But still they are killing their children, becoming more and more involved in sinful activities. As a lawmaker, I'd like to change that whole, what we call, vicious cycle. *You can change, but if you do not change for the real good, then time will come, another change, another change. That is going on. Just like in Russia they wanted to change. They brought in revolution. But what is changed? They are still begging grains from America. So what is the use of that change? If you have to beg from other country for your food, then what is the benefit of such change? So this is going on: one thing established, and again it is changed. That is described in the śāstra: punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Chewing the chewed. Just like sugarcane. One has taken the juice by chewing and thrown it in the street, and somebody again takes it and chew it, what he will get it? It is already chewed. Experiment. So all, everything has been experimented. Big, big empires, big, big society, big, big nation. That Hitler, he wanted to make something big. Napoleon wanted to make something big. Nothing big has been done. Where is Napoleon? Where is Hitler? So these are all temporary attempts. It is sure to be failure. Because they do not know how to do things. That is the defect. They are simply imagining, concoction. Here is a practical and sure proposal in the Bhagavad-gītā. God comes, and He's giving personal instruction, that "Do things like this." Your economic problem, your political problem, your social problem, everything, you ask any question, any problem, the answer is there, perfect. All problems. So why people should not take this perfect answer to all problems? That is intelligence. Experiment we have made so many, materially. They have all failed. We were under British rule. So where is that British rule now? And before that, there was Roman Empire, Carthagian Empire, Egyptian Empire—so many—Mogul Empire, then British Empire, now your American Empire. But these things will not help. Every one of our presidential candidates is continuing to talk in the same vein, promising and promising all of a temporary nature of solution to our problems. No. Solution is here, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You take this movement after studying it scrutinizingly. You'll find, "Yes, this is the only movement for solution of all problems." I think we go back to what you said at the beginning: we trust primarily in the dollar, "In God We Trust." That is only slogan . . . Yeah, right. . . . but if we trust somebody when we know, "Yes, he is trustworthy," that is better. Blindly trusting may not endure. But knowingly trust, that will be beneficial. As a lawmaker for the State of Michigan, every day I'm struggling. I know what you're saying. I would like to. And then my surrounding is what they call much more practical. No, it is also practical. We do not propose anything which is impractical. But it's so . . . What do you think in our movement is impractical? I have given you a practical example, that you are paying so much money to the suffering women, especially who have got children but no husband. So, but what is the result? They're not satisfied. They're still committing sinful activity. So the money, giving money, we're giving, is no solution. That is practical. And here, the same girl, I do not give any money, but by Kṛṣṇa consciousness they're satisfied. It is practical. So therefore people should be enlightened with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then problems will be solved. Otherwise, immediately you give him some money, that money will be spent and no satisfaction. This is failure. Our monetary problem . . . actually, we have no monetary problem. Kṛṣṇa has given us money. Our expenditure is more than, I think, two hundred thousand dollars daily. Hmm? What is our total expenditure, can anyone say? Well, with all the construction, perhaps it's very high. *But we are getting money. We have no money, but still we can sit down in such a nice palace. This is practical. So money is not problem. The problem is godlessness. So as soon as there is godlessness, there will be suffering, different types of suffering. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā: Problem—māyā is problem. "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." Purport. *"The Supreme Personality of Godhead has innumerable energies, and all of these energies are divine. Although the living entities are part of His energies, and are therefore divine, due to contact with material energy their original superior power is covered. Being thus covered by material energy, one cannot possibly overcome its influence. As previously stated, both the material and spiritual natures, being emanations from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are eternal. The living entities belong to the eternal superior nature of the Lord, but due to contamination by the inferior nature, matter, their illusion is also eternal. The conditioned soul is therefore called nitya*-baddha, or eternally conditioned. No one can trace out the history of his becoming conditioned at a certain date in material history. Consequently, his release from the clutches of material nature is very difficult, even though that material nature is an inferior energy, because material energy is ultimately conducted by the Supreme Will, which the living entity cannot overcome. Inferior material nature is defined herein as divine nature due to its divine connection and movement by the divine will. Being conducted by the divine will, material nature, although inferior, acts so wonderfully in the construction and destruction of the cosmic manifestation that the Vedas confirm this as follows: māyāṁ tu prakṛtiṁ vidyān māyinaṁ tu maheśvaram (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 4.10). Although māyā is false and temporary, the background of māyā is the supreme magician, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is Maheśvara, the supreme controller. "Another meaning of guṇa is 'rope.' It is to be understood that the conditioned soul is tightly bound by the ropes of illusion. A man bound by the hands and feet cannot free himself. He must be helped by a person who is unbound, because the bound cannot help the bound; the rescuer must be liberated. Therefore only Lord Kṛṣṇa or His bona fide representative the spiritual master can release the conditioned soul. Without such superior help, one cannot be freed from the bondage of material nature. Devotional service, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can help one gain such release. Kṛṣṇa, being the Lord of the illusory energy, can order this insurmountable energy to release the conditioned soul. He orders this release out of His causeless mercy on the surrendered soul and out of His paternal affection for the living entity, who is originally a beloved son of the Lord. Therefore surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord is the only means to get free from the clutches of the stringent material nature. *"The words mām eva are also significant. Mām means unto Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, only, and not Brahmā or Śiva. Although Brahmā and Śiva are greatly elevated and are almost on the level of Viṣṇu, it is not possible for such incarnations of rajo*-guṇa (passion) and tamo-guṇa (ignorance) to release the conditioned soul from the clutches of māyā. In other words, both Brahmā and Śiva are also under the influence of māyā. Only Viṣṇu is the master of māyā. Therefore He alone can give release to the conditioned soul. The Vedas confirm this in the phrase tvam eva viditvā, or 'Freedom is possible only by understanding Kṛṣṇa.' Even Lord Śiva affirms that liberation can be achieved only by the mercy of Viṣṇu. Lord Śiva says, mukti-pradātā sarveṣāṁ viṣṇur eva na saṁśayaḥ: 'There is no doubt that Viṣṇu is the deliverer of liberation for everyone.' " Let start some . . . the institution is already there. We are conducting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if the government cooperates that a certain number of students must be trained up scientifically what is the meaning of God, that will be very much beneficial to the state or to the country. We can give solution for any problem. "We" means Kṛṣṇa. We are simply preaching Kṛṣṇa's message. Kṛṣṇa means God. Kṛṣṇa means "black" also. Kṛṣṇa, this word, (chuckles) means "black" also. You are following? Another meaning of kṛṣṇa is blackish. Black is beautiful? He said, "Black is beautiful?" *Why not? He's the most beautiful. Otherwise, why people are attracted? There is a verse in Brahma*-saṁhitā: kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobham; *barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda*-sundarāṅgam (BS 5.30). He has got one peacock feather on His head, and He's blackish, but wonderfully beautiful. These words are used. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya. He's so beautiful that thousands of Cupids cannot be compared with His beauty. Cupid is understood to be the most beautiful person within this universe. You know Cupid? Yes. He enchants by beauty. But Kṛṣṇa's beauty is so great that millions of beauty, kandarpa, or Cupid, cannot be compared with Him. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi (BS 5.30). It is a question of attraction. It is not a question of black and white. Attraction. So unless Kṛṣṇa is beautiful, why He has got so many millions of devotees? This very word is kandarpa-koṭi. Barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam. His blackness is compared with the black cloud. Asita-ambuda. Ambuda means the cloud. The black cloud is full of water. When there is black cloud in the sky, you can be sure that the rain is going to fall down. Not the white cloud. White cloud means no water. Is it not? (chuckles) *So you understand this philosophy and add water to the suffering humanity. They are suffering in the burning, blazing fire of material existence. So blazing fire can be extinguished when the water falls from the sky, not by your fire brigade. When there is blazing fire in the forest, it is beyond your control. You cannot get there fire brigade. So these small attempts of fire brigade is useless to extinguish the blazing fire of this material existence. The water must come from the cloud. That is by Kṛṣṇa's grace. You have no control over the cloud. But that water wanted. Not your fire brigade water, when there is all around blazing fire. The small fire brigade—(imitates bell) dung*-dung-dung-dung-dung. It can vibrate very loudly—dung-dung-dung—"I'm going to, going to," but they'll go when everything finished. That is practical. I have seen in India. There was a fire in a house, and they came late, when the business is finished. And still they're insisting, "We shall pour some water." (laughter) Everyone asked them that "What is the use of?" "No, this is our system." (laughter) The house is burnt into ashes, and they are looking the formality, "Yes, we must put some water," so that they can write in their books, "Here we attended the fire and we have . . ." (laughter) This cheating is going on. In every problem, this kind of cheating is going on. Official, that's all. The same example: you ask to the charity-taker of welfare activities. The fire is going on, but officially the government satisfied, "Yes, we are after all pouring water." So what is the use of pouring water if the fire is going on? But officially, that's all. We must see that the purpose is being carried. No. The house is burnt into ashes, but we are satisfied that our fire brigade man has poured some water, that's all. They do not know that they cannot do any benefit to anyone by this imperfect process. If the whole money of the government is given to us, we can show result within six months how it is beneficial. Will the government give us money? (pause) Actually, people do not want to trust in God. That is the real fact. But this writing of slogan is a formal . . . (indistinct) . . . at the present moment, nobody has got any idea of God nor faith in God. What do you think? Nobody's got any . . .? Idea of God, and what to speak of faith in God, or trust in God. It's true. Very little faith. "In God We Trust," no. Your original statement. Prabhupāda wrote one letter to the secretary of the President explaining that "You write on your bills 'In God We Trust,' but who is it that knows about God?" So he was asking if it was possible for the government, they could give us some aid and we would educate. We can educate the people. No, I did not ask for any aid. Oh. If they would . . . You can get the copy. I never asked for any aid. No, I didn't mean monetary or anything like that. (pause) (Hari-śauri goes to get letter) Read it. *"Personal Secretary to the President, Office of the President of the United States, White House, Washington, D.C. Dear Sir: On your new two*-dollar note it is stated 'In God We Trust,' and directly beneath, 'Declaration of Independence, 1776.' On the two-hundredth anniversary of this occasion, why not begin teaching the science of God as described in the Vedic literatures, like the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is authorized and appreciated by all learned professors in the universities throughout the whole world? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on since 1966 throughout the whole world, especially in the United States of America. It is a great fortune for the American people that they trust in God. Why shouldn't this spiritual education be given to the American people in an organized way? The whole world is going down and becoming godless. If the American people, who trust in God constitutionally, take this movement seriously, it will be a great service to the human society. We are prepared to cooperate in this connection if the American government takes it very seriously. Awaiting your reply with interest. Yours sincerely, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami." Dated May 9th. Any answer? No reply. That was three weeks back. Four weeks; over a month. May 19th? May 9th. Oh. (pause) Why they have not replied? I suppose you were asking too much. (laughs) Too much? So am I wrong? No, not at all. I'm not asking for money. I know. But you are doing away with our approach to dealing with problems. As you pointed out so well, it's always piecemeal, of a temporary nature. I do it in Lansing. We have a problem, we patch it up, of a temporary nature. We talk to do this, as a quick answer, solution, and we go away feeling better, that we have at least made, as we say, a step in the right direction. Next year, we'll be back with the same problem. I have this problem. Everyone. Everyone. Monday I'll go back to the State Capitol . . . *That is explained, daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). We think, "Now this problem is solved," but actually it is not solved; *it has created another problem. Therefore this word is used, daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā. You . . . the problems are so great that you cannot solve it. Each year it mounts. Yes. It's getting larger and larger, almost impossible to solve. Exactly, yes. Each year we say, "This year is worse than any year in the history." See, this is the experienced government officer's statement. Therefore the word is used, duratyayā. What is the meaning of duratyayā? "Very difficult to overcome." I submit, I contribute to that delinquency. I help every day, trying to find answers, always of a temporary nature. So you kindly give little attention to this movement. It will solve all the problems. You have read some of our books? No. Yes. *We have all answers to the problems in the Bhagavad*-gītā, but who is hearing us? The problems and the solutions, they are all mentioned. They are given very nicely. But we do not take it. We create our own solution, imperfect solution. I'm struggling. Everyone is struggling. Just like you pour water on the leaf of the tree, and still it will fall down. He's perplexed, that "I am giving water to the leaf every day. How it is that it is dying?" But he never thinks that "I have not done properly; therefore the leaf is dying." He does not know what is the proper way. So things, if they are not done properly, it will not produce the desired result. That is going on. (pause) (very loud kīrtana in background) You have seen our Deities? Our Deity, Kṛṣṇa? Have you seen the Deities in the temple? Yes. I am very fortunate. Twice I've been before you. Thank you. Oh, that's nice. I'm very grateful. Whenever you find time, please come. I will. Yes. You'll get so many inspiration. (pause) The pathways in the garden, if they are occasionally washed, as far as possible, grow . . . (break) *. . . yātrā. Today is celebration of snāna*-yātrā, so . . . (break) July 18th. *Today is snāna*-yātrā, disappearance of Mukunda Datta and Śrīdhara Paṇḍita and full moon. Tomorrow is disappearance of Śyāmānanda Gosvāmī. . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) Conversation -- June 13, 1976, Detroit (Conversation with Mother and Sons) Have you read the other cantos also? You read all the way up to the Fifth Canto? I read so much, you know, and I have four children . . . (indistinct) . . . doesn't live at home—and I read so much that people probably wonder how I get my work done. But it gets done. (Prabhupāda chuckles) And it's like I'm in another world. It's really great. I had a dream about you, Prabhupāda. And I dreamed . . . this is a dream that's coming true. But you didn't acknowledge me because I didn't say "Kṛṣṇa." (Prabhupāda laughs) And then when I did, then you did, and you asked me what I knew about Kṛṣṇa, and I didn't answer you because I didn't want to display my ignorance. Very good. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and be one of our members. Your son is also very good. Mother good, son good. According to our Indian estimate, son acquires the quality of mother and the daughter acquires the quality of the father. I didn't understand. You didn't understand? The son acquires the quality of the mother and the daughter acquires the quality of the father. So like mother, like son. When . . . (indistinct) . . . was living in the temple, I didn't tell Kim this, but he looked ten years younger than he does right now, so . . . When he was living in the temple he looked ten years younger. I was thinking he should live in the temple again. Yes, that's a fact. One clergyman, he asked me, "Swāmījī, why your disciples look so bright?" So that's a fact. All the devotees. Because they are spiritually enlightened. That is the cause of brightness. And materially involved—moroseness. Because it is ignorance. Material life means life of ignorance, and spiritual life means life of enlightenment. That is the difference. Material life is called tama. Tama means darkness. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya . This is the Vedic mantra . "Don't remain in darkness." But people cannot understand that, "I am living in the light. Why I'm darkness?" So darkness means without any spiritual enlightenment. That is darkness. So the Vedic injunction is "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light." The light is my spiritual life, and material life means darkness. Because he does not know what is going to happen next. You are under the laws of material nature. The nature will act according to the association you make, exactly. You do not know that you are infecting some contagious disease. You may not know it, but it will act. In due course of time, you'll develop that disease and suffer. Similarly, without knowledge, in ignorance, imperceptibly we are associating with a certain law of nature, and we shall be victimized. We may not know it, but we shall be victimized. That is the life of ignorance. A child does not know that if he touches the fire it will burn and it will cause some disease, some sore. He does not know. But he, somehow or other, if he touches fire, these things will come. This is the life of ignorance. You do something, you do not know what is the effect. But the effect will come, and you'll have to suffer. You know or not know, it doesn't matter. That is ignorance. Life of darkness. The Christian theologicians, they say that, "Why shall I suffer for my . . .?" They do not believe in the karma , fruitive activity. But that means ignorance. They have no sufficient knowledge. Karma is there and effect is there, but they do not know it. Poor fund of knowledge. Therefore it is failing. They have failed, these Christian priest, to explain everything philosophically. *So advanced Westerners, they are now educated in science philosophy, they are not attracted with these dogmatic views. So to remain in ignorance is animal life. To be enlightened is human life. And the topmost enlightenment is to understand God and to love Him. That is topmost enlightenment. Unfortunately, there is no education to know what is God, and what to speak of loving Him. This is modern civilization—ignorance. A civilization of ignorance. They do not know what is what. Simply speculating, wasting time, talking all nonsense. This is going on in the name of education. But actually they are in ignorance. They do not know what is what. They are reading so many philosophical speculation, horrible condition of the so*-called philosopher, scientist. Simply "I believe," "In this believe, that believe." You believe . . . I believe something. That is your . . . (indistinct) . . . your belief is not final. That is creating chaotic condition. You believe some way, I believe something, he believes something. What is the profit? Chaos. *So all these philosophers, scientists, they believe, "I believe," as if his belief will be a doctrine. Why he believes like that? People also accept like that. Nobody questions that a person says: "I believe," that means he is not in perfect knowledge. But in Vedic śāstra , there is no question of belief. This is the fact. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). It never says that, "I believe there are so many aquatics." No. Clear declaration, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi : there are nine hundred thousand different forms of life in the water. Bās . This is Vedic knowledge. It never says: "I believe." What is the meaning of belief? You must know definitely and declare it. That is Vedic knowledge. Speculation is not allowed. Truth must be declared as it is. (aside) That Bengali woman wanted to see me? Mrs. Dasgupta. I sent someone to find her. So here is definitive knowledge in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There's no question "I believe" or "You believe." No. What you are, your belief? You may believe wrongly. You are not perfect. They do not accept this, that every one of the conditioned souls is imperfect, with four defects: illusion, committing mistake, cheating and imperfectness of senses. Who will say it is not? It is. If you have got imperfect senses, then what is the use of your belief? If the child says, "Oh, there is no father. I have never seen my father," does it mean there is no father? Because you are child, because you have got mother, there must be father, you believe or not believe. So these rascals say, "I don't believe in God." Why? As it is inevitable—the mother is there, the child is there—there must be father. You may not know him, but you can know him through your mother. But must be father. There is no question of "I don't believe there is father." No, that cannot be . . . (indistinct) . . . it is like that, everything fact. No question of belief. You believe or not believe, there is father. Similarly, these rascals nowadays, they say: "We don't believe in God." So you believe or not believe, God is there. Who cares for your believe or not believe? The same way: the mother is there, the child is there—there must be father. There is no argument. Is it not? Can anyone say: "Yes, my mother is there, I am there; *I don't believe there is father"? Is it feasible? No. Common sense. So these rascals who do not believe in God, they're simply rascals. Mūḍha, narādhama , that is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Anyone who has no understanding of God, he's lowest of the mankind and rascal number one. Hmm? What do you think? Sometimes there's a question that I'm asked, that we say we're imperfect so we have to receive perfect knowledge. But they say if you're always imperfect, then how can you know that it's perfect, what you're hearing? Yes, we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Just like a child does not believe. A boy, he has not seen his father. He does not believe that there is father. But if the mother says: "Yes, my dear child, there is father," so then his knowledge is perfect. With his imperfect knowledge, he was disbelieving that there is father, but when the mother says, he has to accept it. Then his knowledge becomes perfect. He has not seen who is father. That's a fact, maybe. And . . . but the mother is authority. She says: "Here, my dear child. There is father." Then his knowledge his perfect. So we may be imperfect, the child is imperfect, but when he gets the knowledge from the perfect source, mother, then it is perfect. Similarly, we, we never say that we are perfect. If you are perfect, then why you are learning? We are trying to become perfect. So our process is that we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Therefore whatever we say, it is perfect. A child does not know, "What is this, father?" The father says: "My dear child, it is called microphone." So after that, if he takes it and declares to anyone, "This is microphone," that is perfect, although he's a child—because he's learned it from the perfect father. This is our process. We don't speculate. We don't speculate whether there is father or not. That is not our process. We ask from the mother, "Mother, they say I have got father. I have never seen." So mother says: "Yes, my dear child, you have got a father." Then finish. Knowledge is perfect. And the child cannot challenge, "I have never seen my father. How can I believe you?" This is nonsense. Your mother says, that is fact. That's all. Finished. You cannot challenge mother: "Mother, I have never seen my father. How can I believe?" That is nonsense! This is going on. "I have never seen God. Can you show me God?" This rascaldom is going on . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all you must know you are rascal. How can you see God? You hear from the authority who knows God. That is the injunction. *You have to approach tattva*-darśī , who has seen God through spiritual eyes. *So one has to approach such a person who actually knows God, seen God, and approach him, praṇipātena . Not like that childish challenge. By surrender: praṇipātena . Then question. First of all surrender. Praṇipātena, paripraśnena . Not by challenging. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore one has to go to guru , where there is no challenge. There is no question of challenging. You can make question. That is another thing. But not challenge. Then you'll be deceived. Therefore first condition is praṇipātena . Without praṇipāta , you cannot make advancement. *So this philosophy, our philosophy . . . our or anyone's philosophy. Philosophy is not for our or yours. Philosophy is philosophy. That is a science. Philosophy is the science of sciences. That is the description of philosophy. In our college days we were philosophy student of Professor, Dr. W. S. Urquhart. He defined that, "Philosophy is the science of sciences." There are different departments of scientific knowledge. When they are taken together, the original science is philosophy. Philosophy is the science. Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam etad jñānam. Tad ajñānaṁ yad anyathā. Is it not stated in the Bhagavad-gītā ? Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. To know the Absolute Truth, that is philosophy. So the simple philosophy is there in the Bhagavad-gītā , that: *To understand God, a simple method. Simple method to . . . just like the earth is there, everybody knows. And from the earth different varieties of living entities are coming. The grass is coming, the plant is coming, then insects are coming, flies are coming, then by eating the grass or flies, the bigger animals are coming or they're existing. Take for four*-legged animals, they are eating the grass, the plants. So they are living, their generation is going on. Then the human being is coming by evolution. So anyway, ultimately they are coming from the earth. Is it not? Is there any difficulty? So we are coming from the earth or water or air, fire—the five elements. Therefore on the total material elements is our mother. The mother means wherefrom one comes. He's your child because his body has come from your body. Everyone knows it. So every living being is coming out of this earth in different forms. Now if it is established, the mother is the earth and everything that is coming out of mother, they are children, then where is father? Is it not the next inquiry? Is that not the next inquiry? *The mother is there, the children are there. The next inquiry is . . . suppose unknown man comes to him, "Where is your father?" So who is the father? And father says, ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am father." Finished. Father is God. God has created this earth. He has impregnated the earth with the living entities, and they are coming out. Where is the difficulty? But because they are in ignorance, rascals, it takes long, long time to understand this simple truth. So dull-headed. The children are there and mother is there, and why father . . . there should be no father? What is the answer? That the mother is just some symbolic idea. There is no . . . *Whatever it may be, mother exists. Mother means who begets, who gives birth. You practically see, grass to the highest form of life, they are coming from earth, living at the cost of the earth. The earth is supplying food, food grains, vegetables. So mother . . . as child is growing by sucking the mother's breast, so we are living at the cost of mother. She is giving us milk, she is giving us everything. That is mother. And śāstra , the earth is considered mother. Ātma*-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī . . . but they have no knowledge. Mother means who creates my body, who gives me feeding in the beginning, gives me strength. That is mother. How you can understand mother otherwise? So mother is there: earth. Dhenur dhātrī tathā pṛthvī. Pṛthvī is mother. And practically we see. She is giving, the mother earth, is giving birth to so many varieties of children—8,400,000. Then the next inquiry should be: the mother is there, the children are there, then where is the father? That answer is given by Kṛṣṇa: ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4), "I am the father." So where is the difficulty to understand Supreme Lord? But they are so dull-headed that they have no even common sense, and they're passing as philosopher, politician and scientist, big leader, big rascal. This is going on. This is going on. All big, big rascals, they have taken the leadership of the world, and the world is in chaos, chaotic condition; everyone is unhappy, suffering. My heart has been captivated by person first introduced me to you, George Harrison, and . . . George Harrison? Oh. You came with him? I first became interested several years back in what you were writing when I . . . especially when I began to see the tie with what he was singing. And now, it's like, the music he's doing right now reflects what I am looking for myself. He's more following George Harrison than following you. I see the two of you as not . . . What is George Harrison's? What is the idea? He is . . . I see both of you standing together. I don't see you apart. That's why I'm here right now. Thank you. This boy is also nice. He comes to me. He offers me. He has given one great big estate in London. He financed my first *Kṛṣṇa Book* . It required nineteen thousand dollars. So I asked him that, "I have no money. If you can pay, I can print." So he gave immediately. I have admitted. You have seen my *Kṛṣṇa Book* ? Show him. George Harrison's Introduction? Oh, yes. I feel that I am personally in debt to him as well as being in debt to you at this point in my life. He's a good boy. Śrīla Prabhupāda? There are many, many guests coming, Indian people coming today. We have not seen so many coming for a long time, and I think it is because they know you are here. (break) *One or two words, that is enough. Godless civilization. Everything, there is proof: there is father, the supreme father. And still they do not believe in God. He says ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā , "I am the seed-giving father." We have got experience that father gives the seed in the womb of the mother and then the child takes body from the mother and comes out. Everyone knows it. *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Purport. "In this verse it is clearly explained that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is the original father of all living entities. The living entities are combinations of the material nature and the spiritual nature. Such living entities are seen not only on this planet but in every planet, even in the highest, where Brahmā is situated. Everywhere there are living entities; within the earth there are living entities, even within water and within fire. All these appearances are due to the mother . . ." And these rascals say in other planet there is no life. And we have to believe that. This is going on. Why other planet there is no life? Only this planet? These rascal things are going on. *"All these appearances are due to the mother, material nature, and Kṛṣṇa's seed*-giving process. The purport is that the living entities, being impregnated in the material world, come out and form at the time of creation according to their past deeds." *Now if the child is . . . if the father puts the seed in the black wife, the child may come in black body. In the white body, the child may come in white body. So the body is different according to the mother, but the soul is the same. One gets the body according to the body of the mother. But either in the black body or in the white body the soul is the same. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). This simple truth they cannot understand, common sense. In one minute it can be understood. The father . . . mother is there and the child is there. So there must be father. How one can deny? Do we have any other goal in life than this . . . No, the first thing is that you must know what you are. You should know that the mother is nature and the father is God. I am the child. Then you try to understand the father, and the son, obedience to father. Then you have to learn how to become obedient to the father. Then father will be pleased. And this father is not a poor father. He has created the whole material world. So if you become good son, then naturally you enjoy the property of the father. Everything will be solved simply by understanding the father. And it is natural the son inherits the property of the father. The father is so rich, God, that how much property you can enjoy? What is the use of your endeavoring differently? You have got your father's property. Why you are wasting your time to become happy separately from the father? You just become obedient son of your father—naturally, you will inherit the father's property and be happy. Why you are endeavoring separately, without father? That is your mistake. You want to happy. So happiness is already there. You are such a rich man's son, God. God is the proprietor of everything. So instead of becoming a very dear child to the father, why you are endeavoring separately to become happy? Just become a very dear child to the father. Then everything is there. How to become dear? *You recognize, "God is my father, and I shall be obedient son." That's all. You do what father says, then you become obedient son. The father says: "Always think of Me," man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), you can think of the father always. Where is the difficulty? Just like we're . . . Kṛṣṇa is the father. You see Kṛṣṇa daily. And if you think of Kṛṣṇa, where is the difficulty? If you see within your heart the Deity, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, you don't require to pass M.A., Ph.D. examination. You can do it. And He asks, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ . That's all. Simple thing. You come to the temple, offer obeisances. Everyone is offering. Where is the difficulty? What you lost? Where is your loss anything? If you come to the temple and offer your respectful obeisances, "Father, please accept my obeisances," where is the difficulty? And father is so kind: "Oh, My dear son, you have come. Very good. Thank you." Immediately you become recognized: "Oh, you are a good son." Where is the difficulty? You don't require the so-called meditation. Meditation is good if you think of your father. If you meditate on something nonsense, what is the use? This is going on. "Real father don't recognize; we are meditating." Misleading. Real meditation is to think of God. But if you do not know God, what is God, and when we present, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa," you don't accept, then what can be done? Everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, God. But if somebody says: "No, I do not accept," that is his business. If he wants to be misled, let him do. What can we do? But here is God. Thing is very simple. There is no difficulty. But we are so obstinate, lowest of the mankind, we would not accept simple things. We will make it complicated and be frustrated. That is our disease. Unnecessarily we make things complicated. Otherwise, father is there, father's instruction is there, father's favor is there. Everything is there. The program's starting downstairs now. So I think they're going for the feast now? Yes. Go. Take prasādam . I don't understand you, but accept my humble obeisances please, anyway. That's all right. Thank you. Thank you, Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests leave) Hmm. Both of them are good, mother and son. What happened to that machine? (break) . . . say there is no father, and there is no God. A man who is speaking nonsense like this, he is born by a father. And where he gets the idea that without father the child is born? Doctor Frog. Yes. Just see. He's born by a father. So where he gets the idea a child is there without father? "There was chemical, there was this, there was . . ." Chemical is there in the semina. It is a chemical combination. But that chemical combination is not living entity. This body is chemical composition, but why don't you manufacture a living being with these chemicals? Even for a chemical reaction, the chemicals have to be brought together. No, suppose he's able to bring together, put together. But where is the life? But even accepting their idea that things are produced from chemical reactions, who is creating the chemical reactions? Yes, put this chemical together and bring life. Where is the life? We ask, prepare one egg. You can analyze the white part and the yellow part of the eggs, and you find some chemical properties. You bring them together and put in the same layer and everything. Now produce life. Where is that science? Simply talking, "Yes, we shall do. We are trying." Nonsense, trying. What is the use of trying? It is already there. God sent egg through the chicken; it will produce life. So why you are wasting your time in this way? Rather, try to understand the person who has got such a brain that within this chemical composition there is life. You cannot do it, therefore you are inferior. Somebody has done it. Even if you say: "Nature has done it," nature is then powerful. You are not even to the level of nature, what to speak of God. Nature is only one of the energies of God. You cannot understand even the energy. How you will understand the energetic? It's difficult to understand how they could possibly say that there's no intelligence. That is their . . . therefore we say these are all rascals. Therefore generally I say this very strong word, but that is the only word to be used for them: rascals, simply rascals. We have no business with them that we have to flatter. "No, no, sir," you have to be saying, "a great scientist." We say you are rascals. That's all. Straight, blunt. Four annas worth. (break) I saw a lot of Indians walking around this morning even. In our garden? Yes. Yes, they have found a good place, temple. It's a fact. This is the best place in all of Detroit. And if you purchase that land, it will be very beautiful. Oh, yes. I have advised them to advertise books on the riverside. People will see. Hmm. That's a very good idea. Therefore, on the first day of seeing, I closed the transaction: "Now agreed, I will give you cash, three hundred thousand." He immediately agreed. Verbally, your transaction was finished on my first meeting. Then it was done. It was kept for us by Kṛṣṇa, otherwise, you could not touch this property, it is so valuable property. Seems Kṛṣṇa arranges things very nicely sometimes. Hmm? Kṛṣṇa arranges things very nicely sometimes. Everything is done just like it is temple. The Deity hall. It's a perfect place. Couldn't be better. (end) Conversation -- June 13, 1976, Detroit (Conversation with Mother and Sons) Have you read the other cantos also? You read all the way up to the Fifth Canto? I read so much, you know, and I have four children . . . (indistinct) . . . doesn't live at home—and I read so much that people probably wonder how I get my work done. But it gets done. (Prabhupāda chuckles) And it's like I'm in another world. It's really great. I had a dream about you, Prabhupāda. And I dreamed . . . this is a dream that's coming true. But you didn't acknowledge me because I didn't say "Kṛṣṇa." (Prabhupāda laughs) And then when I did, then you did, and you asked me what I knew about Kṛṣṇa, and I didn't answer you because I didn't want to display my ignorance. Very good. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and be one of our members. Your son is also very good. Mother good, son good. According to our Indian estimate, son acquires the quality of mother and the daughter acquires the quality of the father. I didn't understand. You didn't understand? The son acquires the quality of the mother and the daughter acquires the quality of the father. So like mother, like son. When . . . (indistinct) . . . was living in the temple, I didn't tell Kim this, but he looked ten years younger than he does right now, so . . . When he was living in the temple he looked ten years younger. I was thinking he should live in the temple again. Yes, that's a fact. One clergyman, he asked me, "Swāmījī, why your disciples look so bright?" So that's a fact. All the devotees. Because they are spiritually enlightened. That is the cause of brightness. And materially involved—moroseness. Because it is ignorance. Material life means life of ignorance, and spiritual life means life of enlightenment. That is the difference. Material life is called tama. Tama means darkness. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya . This is the Vedic mantra . "Don't remain in darkness." But people cannot understand that, "I am living in the light. Why I'm darkness?" So darkness means without any spiritual enlightenment. That is darkness. So the Vedic injunction is "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light." The light is my spiritual life, and material life means darkness. Because he does not know what is going to happen next. You are under the laws of material nature. The nature will act according to the association you make, exactly. You do not know that you are infecting some contagious disease. You may not know it, but it will act. In due course of time, you'll develop that disease and suffer. Similarly, without knowledge, in ignorance, imperceptibly we are associating with a certain law of nature, and we shall be victimized. We may not know it, but we shall be victimized. That is the life of ignorance. A child does not know that if he touches the fire it will burn and it will cause some disease, some sore. He does not know. But he, somehow or other, if he touches fire, these things will come. This is the life of ignorance. You do something, you do not know what is the effect. But the effect will come, and you'll have to suffer. You know or not know, it doesn't matter. That is ignorance. Life of darkness. The Christian theologicians, they say that, "Why shall I suffer for my . . .?" They do not believe in the karma , fruitive activity. But that means ignorance. They have no sufficient knowledge. Karma is there and effect is there, but they do not know it. Poor fund of knowledge. Therefore it is failing. They have failed, these Christian priest, to explain everything philosophically. *So advanced Westerners, they are now educated in science philosophy, they are not attracted with these dogmatic views. So to remain in ignorance is animal life. To be enlightened is human life. And the topmost enlightenment is to understand God and to love Him. That is topmost enlightenment. Unfortunately, there is no education to know what is God, and what to speak of loving Him. This is modern civilization—ignorance. A civilization of ignorance. They do not know what is what. Simply speculating, wasting time, talking all nonsense. This is going on in the name of education. But actually they are in ignorance. They do not know what is what. They are reading so many philosophical speculation, horrible condition of the so*-called philosopher, scientist. Simply "I believe," "In this believe, that believe." You believe . . . I believe something. That is your . . . (indistinct) . . . your belief is not final. That is creating chaotic condition. You believe some way, I believe something, he believes something. What is the profit? Chaos. *So all these philosophers, scientists, they believe, "I believe," as if his belief will be a doctrine. Why he believes like that? People also accept like that. Nobody questions that a person says: "I believe," that means he is not in perfect knowledge. But in Vedic śāstra , there is no question of belief. This is the fact. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). It never says that, "I believe there are so many aquatics." No. Clear declaration, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi : there are nine hundred thousand different forms of life in the water. Bās . This is Vedic knowledge. It never says: "I believe." What is the meaning of belief? You must know definitely and declare it. That is Vedic knowledge. Speculation is not allowed. Truth must be declared as it is. (aside) That Bengali woman wanted to see me? Mrs. Dasgupta. I sent someone to find her. So here is definitive knowledge in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There's no question "I believe" or "You believe." No. What you are, your belief? You may believe wrongly. You are not perfect. They do not accept this, that every one of the conditioned souls is imperfect, with four defects: illusion, committing mistake, cheating and imperfectness of senses. Who will say it is not? It is. If you have got imperfect senses, then what is the use of your belief? If the child says, "Oh, there is no father. I have never seen my father," does it mean there is no father? Because you are child, because you have got mother, there must be father, you believe or not believe. So these rascals say, "I don't believe in God." Why? As it is inevitable—the mother is there, the child is there—there must be father. You may not know him, but you can know him through your mother. But must be father. There is no question of "I don't believe there is father." No, that cannot be . . . (indistinct) . . . it is like that, everything fact. No question of belief. You believe or not believe, there is father. Similarly, these rascals nowadays, they say: "We don't believe in God." So you believe or not believe, God is there. Who cares for your believe or not believe? The same way: the mother is there, the child is there—there must be father. There is no argument. Is it not? Can anyone say: "Yes, my mother is there, I am there; *I don't believe there is father"? Is it feasible? No. Common sense. So these rascals who do not believe in God, they're simply rascals. Mūḍha, narādhama , that is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Anyone who has no understanding of God, he's lowest of the mankind and rascal number one. Hmm? What do you think? Sometimes there's a question that I'm asked, that we say we're imperfect so we have to receive perfect knowledge. But they say if you're always imperfect, then how can you know that it's perfect, what you're hearing? Yes, we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Just like a child does not believe. A boy, he has not seen his father. He does not believe that there is father. But if the mother says: "Yes, my dear child, there is father," so then his knowledge is perfect. With his imperfect knowledge, he was disbelieving that there is father, but when the mother says, he has to accept it. Then his knowledge becomes perfect. He has not seen who is father. That's a fact, maybe. And . . . but the mother is authority. She says: "Here, my dear child. There is father." Then his knowledge his perfect. So we may be imperfect, the child is imperfect, but when he gets the knowledge from the perfect source, mother, then it is perfect. Similarly, we, we never say that we are perfect. If you are perfect, then why you are learning? We are trying to become perfect. So our process is that we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Therefore whatever we say, it is perfect. A child does not know, "What is this, father?" The father says: "My dear child, it is called microphone." So after that, if he takes it and declares to anyone, "This is microphone," that is perfect, although he's a child—because he's learned it from the perfect father. This is our process. We don't speculate. We don't speculate whether there is father or not. That is not our process. We ask from the mother, "Mother, they say I have got father. I have never seen." So mother says: "Yes, my dear child, you have got a father." Then finish. Knowledge is perfect. And the child cannot challenge, "I have never seen my father. How can I believe you?" This is nonsense. Your mother says, that is fact. That's all. Finished. You cannot challenge mother: "Mother, I have never seen my father. How can I believe?" That is nonsense! This is going on. "I have never seen God. Can you show me God?" This rascaldom is going on . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all you must know you are rascal. How can you see God? You hear from the authority who knows God. That is the injunction. *You have to approach tattva*-darśī , who has seen God through spiritual eyes. *So one has to approach such a person who actually knows God, seen God, and approach him, praṇipātena . Not like that childish challenge. By surrender: praṇipātena . Then question. First of all surrender. Praṇipātena, paripraśnena . Not by challenging. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore one has to go to guru , where there is no challenge. There is no question of challenging. You can make question. That is another thing. But not challenge. Then you'll be deceived. Therefore first condition is praṇipātena . Without praṇipāta , you cannot make advancement. *So this philosophy, our philosophy . . . our or anyone's philosophy. Philosophy is not for our or yours. Philosophy is philosophy. That is a science. Philosophy is the science of sciences. That is the description of philosophy. In our college days we were philosophy student of Professor, Dr. W. S. Urquhart. He defined that, "Philosophy is the science of sciences." There are different departments of scientific knowledge. When they are taken together, the original science is philosophy. Philosophy is the science. Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam etad jñānam. Tad ajñānaṁ yad anyathā. Is it not stated in the Bhagavad-gītā ? Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. To know the Absolute Truth, that is philosophy. So the simple philosophy is there in the Bhagavad-gītā , that: *To understand God, a simple method. Simple method to . . . just like the earth is there, everybody knows. And from the earth different varieties of living entities are coming. The grass is coming, the plant is coming, then insects are coming, flies are coming, then by eating the grass or flies, the bigger animals are coming or they're existing. Take for four*-legged animals, they are eating the grass, the plants. So they are living, their generation is going on. Then the human being is coming by evolution. So anyway, ultimately they are coming from the earth. Is it not? Is there any difficulty? So we are coming from the earth or water or air, fire—the five elements. Therefore on the total material elements is our mother. The mother means wherefrom one comes. He's your child because his body has come from your body. Everyone knows it. So every living being is coming out of this earth in different forms. Now if it is established, the mother is the earth and everything that is coming out of mother, they are children, then where is father? Is it not the next inquiry? Is that not the next inquiry? *The mother is there, the children are there. The next inquiry is . . . suppose unknown man comes to him, "Where is your father?" So who is the father? And father says, ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am father." Finished. Father is God. God has created this earth. He has impregnated the earth with the living entities, and they are coming out. Where is the difficulty? But because they are in ignorance, rascals, it takes long, long time to understand this simple truth. So dull-headed. The children are there and mother is there, and why father . . . there should be no father? What is the answer? That the mother is just some symbolic idea. There is no . . . *Whatever it may be, mother exists. Mother means who begets, who gives birth. You practically see, grass to the highest form of life, they are coming from earth, living at the cost of the earth. The earth is supplying food, food grains, vegetables. So mother . . . as child is growing by sucking the mother's breast, so we are living at the cost of mother. She is giving us milk, she is giving us everything. That is mother. And śāstra , the earth is considered mother. Ātma*-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī . . . but they have no knowledge. Mother means who creates my body, who gives me feeding in the beginning, gives me strength. That is mother. How you can understand mother otherwise? So mother is there: earth. Dhenur dhātrī tathā pṛthvī. Pṛthvī is mother. And practically we see. She is giving, the mother earth, is giving birth to so many varieties of children—8,400,000. Then the next inquiry should be: the mother is there, the children are there, then where is the father? That answer is given by Kṛṣṇa: ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4), "I am the father." So where is the difficulty to understand Supreme Lord? But they are so dull-headed that they have no even common sense, and they're passing as philosopher, politician and scientist, big leader, big rascal. This is going on. This is going on. All big, big rascals, they have taken the leadership of the world, and the world is in chaos, chaotic condition; everyone is unhappy, suffering. My heart has been captivated by person first introduced me to you, George Harrison, and . . . George Harrison? Oh. You came with him? I first became interested several years back in what you were writing when I . . . especially when I began to see the tie with what he was singing. And now, it's like, the music he's doing right now reflects what I am looking for myself. He's more following George Harrison than following you. I see the two of you as not . . . What is George Harrison's? What is the idea? He is . . . I see both of you standing together. I don't see you apart. That's why I'm here right now. Thank you. This boy is also nice. He comes to me. He offers me. He has given one great big estate in London. He financed my first *Kṛṣṇa Book* . It required nineteen thousand dollars. So I asked him that, "I have no money. If you can pay, I can print." So he gave immediately. I have admitted. You have seen my *Kṛṣṇa Book* ? Show him. George Harrison's Introduction? Oh, yes. I feel that I am personally in debt to him as well as being in debt to you at this point in my life. He's a good boy. Śrīla Prabhupāda? There are many, many guests coming, Indian people coming today. We have not seen so many coming for a long time, and I think it is because they know you are here. (break) *One or two words, that is enough. Godless civilization. Everything, there is proof: there is father, the supreme father. And still they do not believe in God. He says ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā , "I am the seed-giving father." We have got experience that father gives the seed in the womb of the mother and then the child takes body from the mother and comes out. Everyone knows it. *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Purport. "In this verse it is clearly explained that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is the original father of all living entities. The living entities are combinations of the material nature and the spiritual nature. Such living entities are seen not only on this planet but in every planet, even in the highest, where Brahmā is situated. Everywhere there are living entities; within the earth there are living entities, even within water and within fire. All these appearances are due to the mother . . ." And these rascals say in other planet there is no life. And we have to believe that. This is going on. Why other planet there is no life? Only this planet? These rascal things are going on. *"All these appearances are due to the mother, material nature, and Kṛṣṇa's seed*-giving process. The purport is that the living entities, being impregnated in the material world, come out and form at the time of creation according to their past deeds." *Now if the child is . . . if the father puts the seed in the black wife, the child may come in black body. In the white body, the child may come in white body. So the body is different according to the mother, but the soul is the same. One gets the body according to the body of the mother. But either in the black body or in the white body the soul is the same. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). This simple truth they cannot understand, common sense. In one minute it can be understood. The father . . . mother is there and the child is there. So there must be father. How one can deny? Do we have any other goal in life than this . . . No, the first thing is that you must know what you are. You should know that the mother is nature and the father is God. I am the child. Then you try to understand the father, and the son, obedience to father. Then you have to learn how to become obedient to the father. Then father will be pleased. And this father is not a poor father. He has created the whole material world. So if you become good son, then naturally you enjoy the property of the father. Everything will be solved simply by understanding the father. And it is natural the son inherits the property of the father. The father is so rich, God, that how much property you can enjoy? What is the use of your endeavoring differently? You have got your father's property. Why you are wasting your time to become happy separately from the father? You just become obedient son of your father—naturally, you will inherit the father's property and be happy. Why you are endeavoring separately, without father? That is your mistake. You want to happy. So happiness is already there. You are such a rich man's son, God. God is the proprietor of everything. So instead of becoming a very dear child to the father, why you are endeavoring separately to become happy? Just become a very dear child to the father. Then everything is there. How to become dear? *You recognize, "God is my father, and I shall be obedient son." That's all. You do what father says, then you become obedient son. The father says: "Always think of Me," man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), you can think of the father always. Where is the difficulty? Just like we're . . . Kṛṣṇa is the father. You see Kṛṣṇa daily. And if you think of Kṛṣṇa, where is the difficulty? If you see within your heart the Deity, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, you don't require to pass M.A., Ph.D. examination. You can do it. And He asks, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ . That's all. Simple thing. You come to the temple, offer obeisances. Everyone is offering. Where is the difficulty? What you lost? Where is your loss anything? If you come to the temple and offer your respectful obeisances, "Father, please accept my obeisances," where is the difficulty? And father is so kind: "Oh, My dear son, you have come. Very good. Thank you." Immediately you become recognized: "Oh, you are a good son." Where is the difficulty? You don't require the so-called meditation. Meditation is good if you think of your father. If you meditate on something nonsense, what is the use? This is going on. "Real father don't recognize; we are meditating." Misleading. Real meditation is to think of God. But if you do not know God, what is God, and when we present, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa," you don't accept, then what can be done? Everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, God. But if somebody says: "No, I do not accept," that is his business. If he wants to be misled, let him do. What can we do? But here is God. Thing is very simple. There is no difficulty. But we are so obstinate, lowest of the mankind, we would not accept simple things. We will make it complicated and be frustrated. That is our disease. Unnecessarily we make things complicated. Otherwise, father is there, father's instruction is there, father's favor is there. Everything is there. The program's starting downstairs now. So I think they're going for the feast now? Yes. Go. Take prasādam . I don't understand you, but accept my humble obeisances please, anyway. That's all right. Thank you. Thank you, Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests leave) Hmm. Both of them are good, mother and son. What happened to that machine? (break) . . . say there is no father, and there is no God. A man who is speaking nonsense like this, he is born by a father. And where he gets the idea that without father the child is born? Doctor Frog. Yes. Just see. He's born by a father. So where he gets the idea a child is there without father? "There was chemical, there was this, there was . . ." Chemical is there in the semina. It is a chemical combination. But that chemical combination is not living entity. This body is chemical composition, but why don't you manufacture a living being with these chemicals? Even for a chemical reaction, the chemicals have to be brought together. No, suppose he's able to bring together, put together. But where is the life? But even accepting their idea that things are produced from chemical reactions, who is creating the chemical reactions? Yes, put this chemical together and bring life. Where is the life? We ask, prepare one egg. You can analyze the white part and the yellow part of the eggs, and you find some chemical properties. You bring them together and put in the same layer and everything. Now produce life. Where is that science? Simply talking, "Yes, we shall do. We are trying." Nonsense, trying. What is the use of trying? It is already there. God sent egg through the chicken; it will produce life. So why you are wasting your time in this way? Rather, try to understand the person who has got such a brain that within this chemical composition there is life. You cannot do it, therefore you are inferior. Somebody has done it. Even if you say: "Nature has done it," nature is then powerful. You are not even to the level of nature, what to speak of God. Nature is only one of the energies of God. You cannot understand even the energy. How you will understand the energetic? It's difficult to understand how they could possibly say that there's no intelligence. That is their . . . therefore we say these are all rascals. Therefore generally I say this very strong word, but that is the only word to be used for them: rascals, simply rascals. We have no business with them that we have to flatter. "No, no, sir," you have to be saying, "a great scientist." We say you are rascals. That's all. Straight, blunt. Four annas worth. (break) I saw a lot of Indians walking around this morning even. In our garden? Yes. Yes, they have found a good place, temple. It's a fact. This is the best place in all of Detroit. And if you purchase that land, it will be very beautiful. Oh, yes. I have advised them to advertise books on the riverside. People will see. Hmm. That's a very good idea. Therefore, on the first day of seeing, I closed the transaction: "Now agreed, I will give you cash, three hundred thousand." He immediately agreed. Verbally, your transaction was finished on my first meeting. Then it was done. It was kept for us by Kṛṣṇa, otherwise, you could not touch this property, it is so valuable property. Seems Kṛṣṇa arranges things very nicely sometimes. Hmm? Kṛṣṇa arranges things very nicely sometimes. Everything is done just like it is temple. The Deity hall. It's a perfect place. Couldn't be better. (end) Conversation A -- June 14, 1976, Detroit (Conversation with Ambarisa and Catholic Priest) *We took a few pictures that you could see. We took some pictures for you to look at of the restaurant. It's still being built, so there's not actually that much to see. (break) This street that it's on is very heavily traveled all day. This is taken at about five o'clock in the morning, so there's no one there. It's still under construction, you can see all the cinderblocks inside. But it's all*-glass building. It is being rented or purchased? That's still being worked out. I think . . . I think we're going to purchase. . . . Ambarīṣa is purchasing. The back building? That is a different building? No, yeah. This is condominiums, houses, for people living above, so the restaurant is just that one floor. That's what we would be purchasing, not the whole building. The kitchen is inside the big building. *But it's very choice space. It's just two blocks from what's called the Ritz Hotel, which is most famous hotel in the country, they have in every large city. These pictures, that glassed*-in area, that would all be just the serving area. Then the kitchen is behind the wall. There would be a large kitchen facility, where all the devotees would be cooking. Kitchen is within the building? Yes. *So one*-story building also included? *Yes, there's a kitchen and dish*-washing room and office, storage . . . Storage space, office. All inside. Nice. Did you explain that it was being built for someone who was going to start a restaurant, but they didn't? Yes. They ran out of money, these people, and there were so many restrictions at this location because of these buildings here. People live there, and they didn't want anyone in there who was going to cook meat. And they didn't want anyone who was going to serve intoxication. So practically we're the only people that don't serve meat and intoxication. So it's actually . . . they are very glad. The man who owns it says he gets fifty phone calls every day of people who want that space. It's such a good space that fifty people a day call. Fifty? People are very interested. The location is excellent. It's on one of the most important streets in all of Boston. Once we get open we'll be able to serve a thousand people a day. Oh. And what you are charging? We're charging anywhere between three and eight dollars. Eight dollars for a very big plate, many preparations and different nectars and very sumptuous feast for eight dollars. And then if you just want a sandwich or something a little smaller, you can pay just three dollars. We think we'll be making about . . . how much? About half a million dollars a year, which will all go to you, Prabhupāda. (laughter) So we couldn't call the restaurant the "Hare Kṛṣṇa Restaurant" because there were some restrictions in the block, so we were thinking we'd call it "Saṅkīrtana." That's okay? Oh, yes. They are Hare Kṛṣṇa phobia. They are afraid. Yes. You have suggested "Saṅkīrtana"? Yes, they think that is nice. They do not know what that means. (laughs) Just like our Haridāsa. You know Haridāsa? Bombay? *Yes, uh*-huh. He, Moscow, he was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa on the street, and when people asked, "What is this?" "This is cinema song." Sometimes as devotees we have to be a little bit crooked. (indistinct Hindi) . . . we shall do everything as the material person does, karmīs do, but we have to do everything for Kṛṣṇa, not person. Then it is all right. So? There's one thing. Our best hours, some of the best business in the restaurant, would be very late at night, like between nine to eleven o'clock at night. So is that all right as long as we can arrange . . . Oh, yes. . . . everyone's following the program? People are up 'til midnight? Still they will come to the morning program. But there will be picture of Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Yes. *We should have a nice altar, small altar, Pañca*-tattva. The temple is only one block away. We were wondering, should we offer the food to the Deities in the temple or should we offer it in the restaurant? Better in the restaurant. Better in the restaurant. Yes, that is a little easier also. They must know that they're eating prasādam . Yes, yes. There was one other thing. Mānasvī, he is outside of New York, and I don't know very much what his position is. I talked to him once. He wanted to see you in New York, I don't know if you know that, because he says that all these things are not true. No. *He's a thief. He has taken about twenty*-five thousand dollars. He's a thief from the very beginning. What he is doing now? He's working two jobs. They won't allow him in the temple. I think you sent one letter or something. No, he should not be admitted. *Also in Boston there's a lady who may be donating a million*-dollar farm to the Boston temple. This is just a project that's a little bit . . . that's just started, and she wants to donate her farm. So that is also going on, and also the temple is purchasing the building next door. I gave them some money for a down payment on it so they could buy the building next door to use it to house the people that are living in the restaurant and also for the Bhaktivedanta Institute, because I think the Bhaktivedanta Institute is going to be in Boston. Mādhava is there. Yes, Boston is nice place for the Institute. Best place for it. It's the educational center of America. Academic center of the United States. So now we are fixing up the temple very nicely. We've spent about fifty thousand dollars putting in all new tile floor and a beautiful new onyx altar. Very, very gorgeous. So it is framework or solid building? The building? It's stone, brownstone. Oh, then it's nice. Very sound. It's in a very nice area in Boston. Commonwealth Avenue was the most aristocratic street in Boston. The temple is right there, just one block from downtown. Near Commonwealth Pier? Near Boston Commons. Boston Commons? The big park. Not park, there is a pier, pier, (pronounces "pire") what do you call? Oh, pier, pier. Oh, yes, it is near there, Prabhupāda. That's where you landed. Yes. (laughs) *Yes, it is not far. We're having Ratha*-yātrā in Boston for the first time this year, and we're going to take the Ratha carts down to Commonwealth Pier in honor of your arrival. Yes. (laughs) There is one A.P. store? A.P.? *A*-P, A-P store. Market? Yes, it's still there. Yes, that I saw first. (laughter) I remember. So there are many nice projects going on in Boston. We are hoping that maybe sometime you can come. That would be very nice. Oh, yes. From New York it is not . . . *No, it is very close to New York, half*-hour airplane ride. So it is ready? We were talking about different names for the restaurant yesterday. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja did not care for "Saṅkīrtana Restaurant." (laughs) I thought that there might be a name of Kṛṣṇa, like they were using "Govinda," but that's obviously a name for Kṛṣṇa. Because people don't . . . we wanted to camouflage. *We wanted to have a name that was Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, just exclusively Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So we thought "Saṅkīrtana." No other movement . . . we're the saṅkīrtana movement. So we thought that name would show that it was exclusively Hare Kṛṣṇa, whereas many other Indians they have named their store "Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Store," stuff like this. So we thought . . . Something perhaps more exotic. I was just thinking as a restaurant. We wanted something that was exclusively . . . They have started "Govinda's"? Yes, that is in Hawaii. Yes. Govinda's name is nice. Yes, I always liked. Now Laguna Beach, they are also calling it "Govinda's." Yes, so why not continue this "Govinda's"? Yes, we could. Okay. It's very good publicity. If many are started, they are all "Govinda's," then everyone will recognize it. Okay, there is no difficulty. *Govindam ādi*-puruṣam . So that's all right, "Govinda's." Okay. (pause) Hari-śauri looks like he can give a very good massage. He looks like he can give a very good massage. Mmm. Hari-śauri's one defect is he cannot cook. (laughter) Otherwise he is duplicate. Except cooking. He knows very good cooking. He can eat though. He can eat prasāda . So I can travel and cook? He can . . . a young man must eat. Why one should be like me? Śrutikīrti and Jaya. Jaya , Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (tape continues after entrance of Eugene Stansky, or Stowsky, a Catholic priest who had met Prabhupāda and the devotees in L.A. and was now traveling with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja) . . . the very best. Yes. I'm very, very pleased. I feel very blessed by being with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja. So just work cooperatively for the benefit of human society. We were just discussing our so many things. (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa) You can explain what I was talking. How the present civilization is . . . just like here in Detroit, producing so many cars. Kalke teen char baar apnar bishoye khoj korechilam. Apni chilen na. (I inquired about you three or four times yesterday. You were not there.) So how long can this civilization go on, simply producing automobiles, like this? So the situation is that the people are always in a state of poverty. Just like the black people here in Detroit, even they are making sufficient money, still they are always in a state of poverty because they don't know how to live. Prabhupāda related one story that the capitalist and the worker, both of them, they went to the goddess of fortune appealing for a benediction. So the capitalist asked: "Give me such money that I will be able to work one day and it will last me for six months." And then the worker, he went and he said, "Give me one thousand dollars I have every day to spend." No, he said that, "Give me the same money as the capitalist will spend in six months. I shall spend every day. I shall get that money every day and I shall spend it." So this worker class, there is no culture. You may pay them heavy amount of money, but they will spend it and remain a poor man, because he has no culture. This is true. *You see these black men. They earn sufficient money, but see their home. See their home. You America, you have given them equal rights, they are getting money, but they have no culture. Therefore you may pay them as much as you like, but still poverty*-stricken. In Africa also I have seen that they have got their own kingdom, independence, but if we go to the African slums, they are poverty-stricken, wretched. So this civilization will not endure. If there is no culture, simply by money you cannot maintain a standard of civilization. That is not possible. Now the American leaders, they are thinking, "Let us have money, then everything . . ." Of course, by money you are covering all the defects of the social culture. But this will not endure. Day will come when everything will be exposed. Therefore culture required. Prabhupāda was explaining how in India even the poorest people, they live—husband, wife, family, like this—in very . . . Happy. . . . simple quarters. Happily they live. As soon as there is no quarrel between the husband and wife, the home will be happy. And as soon as there is misunderstanding between husband, wife, it will be hell. So the principle is the husband honestly tries to earn livelihood, and at home the wife should be so intelligent that whatever money the husband has earned, she'll manage. She'll not demand, "Bring money, bring money, bring money. Otherwise it cannot be . . ." Then the home will be happy. So where is that training? (explaining) Where is that training? Well, there is no training here. There is no culture, as you pointed out. No, I mean to say culture, not training. As a matter of fact, even among the educated classes in the United States, there is no culture. There are no cultural roots. *No, no culture. There is no culture. There is no standard social life. Simply hodgepodge. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to bring everything in proper order. Everything is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . So America is the leading nation of the world. If you work on the principle of Bhagavad-gītā and train up your people, it will be ideal state and example for the whole world. At least a certain section of the American population should be ideal. That will also do. Not that . . . we cannot expect cent percent will take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not needed. But if there is one section of the people ideal, that will be followed. But we want to create that section, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. May I pose a question, Your Grace? It's less than two weeks that I'm asking you for the second time to instruct me. You gave me some very general instructions in my last audience, and I'm very grateful. Many things have transpired since then. I'm now here in Detroit; we'll be going on to Toronto very shortly. From Toronto to Chicago, and then I'm not sure what the agenda is. I'm tremendously pleased, because it's giving me an opportunity to work in the area that you said I should be working in. In addition to which I have ample time to study. And I have the assistance of Satsvarūpa with my studies. Now I have a question. I would like very much to keep a log of my daily activities and start preparing an outline of a book. Now the book very basically won't . . . I won't be starting on the book for at least a year, but I would like to start keeping a log. You can keep record. Yes. Now the reason I would like to keep a log and prepare an outline and start a book, say a year from now, it would show a transition from Roman priesthood to Hare Kṛṣṇa devotee. I think this would open up the door to all of the colleges and universities across the country. Very good idea, yes. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). The nature is, if we get better engagement, we give up inferior engagement. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. So this will be an example. You are a Roman priest. You are educated, learned scholar also. So when you come to this movement, you do not come here by sentiment or by whims. You consider, then you have come. This is what I wanted to say, that I'm not here because of sentiment. I'm here for very, very sound reasons, and I want to explain the reasons. *Therefore we are presenting these books, that we are not a so*-called sect of whimsical faith. It is based on science and authorities. Recently we have got report that our books have been taken in Hamburg University. You know Hamburg University? Yes. East Germany. As their textbook for Sanskrit class. They found it so wonderful. Because for Sanskrit scholar it is good opportunity to learn Sanskrit, because each word we have given in English and German synonyms. I want very much to learn basic Sanskrit, but I have so much to learn right now that, ah . . . No, it is not necessary. But those who are interested in studying Sanskrit literature, for them it is very good help. And at the same time they get sublime knowledge. Indeed. They study Sanskrit and get knowledge. So you have kindly come to join us. You study our philosophy very minutely, and then try to do something for the suffering humanity. The saintly persons, at least in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement, they are not meant for idle life. They are always busy for the welfare of the whole human society. This is the sign of saintly person. They are misguided and they are suffering, and it is the duty of the saintly person to give them instruction, education, how they can become really happy and make their life successful. This is saintly person. A saintly person doesn't mean to live at other's expenditure and do all nonsense things. This is not saintly person. Hmm. Ki kotha bolben . . . (What were you saying . . .) (break) You asked me some question? Well, I wanted to know whether it would be all right to keep the log and to write at the . . . work out the outline for the book. You told me to go ahead. So I will do that. Basically, this is what I wanted to do. I would like to continue with the group. I would like to travel with the group and keep an accurate log and start an outline and see, possibly within a year's time, I will have sufficient material to start the book. That's nice, huh? You like this idea? Yes. Ajke ingreji koto tarik? Ingreji? (What is the date today according to the English calendar?) These boys who are working for this movement? How do you like our men, the devotees? Oh, I'm very, very impressed. This impressed me to begin with—their enthusiasm, their joy, and their complete surrender. This is what . . . That is the qualification. This is the qualification. *Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). That is the secret of success. If one has got unflinching faith in his spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, then he's successful. Two things. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā-pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). So if the guru is false, then how they can keep their faith? That will be broken. Our process is very simple. There is no difficulty. You have seen our Los Angeles temple? Yes. When we purchased, it was a church, perhaps you know. Nobody was coming, so that they were obliged to sell. They started this Sunday class, this, that, so many things. In Melbourne also we have seen a big . . . what was that? It used to be what they call a Christian Brothers school. That we wanted to purchase? Oh, that nunnery. Nunnery. So they wanted to maintain themselves by becoming washermen. Still, they could not maintain. They eventually became washermen . . . washerwoman, to maintain. Huge establishment. So I wanted, negotiation was there. They persisted that the church should not be broken. No? To be broken. Yes, there were different sections. They had a school there and . . . So we thought that we shall use it as temple. That they disagreed. "No, you cannot keep it. You have to break it, then we can sell to you." Then why shall I break it? We shall pay for it and break it? No. Then the negotiation failed. But a huge land, and we are prepared to purchase. In England, in London, I was . . . one, two churches I was negotiating, and one church, that man, he said, "I'll burn into ashes. I'll not sell it to Bhaktivedanta." (laughs) Recently we wanted to purchase in St. James Park one nice house. So they did not give us. They . . . we offered better price; still they did not give us. Your Grace, the thing that impressed me the very most at the temple in Los Angeles . . . now you must bear in mind that I am very, very steeped in Catholicism, I'm very steeped in the New Testament. So when I observed what was happening at the temple in Los Angeles, I was seeing the Book of Acts coming to life—something that died three hundred years ago in the Roman church. In 300 A.D. it died. Since then there's been no such example. And I was just amazed, wandering around, because there I saw the exact book, the Book of Acts. And I was impressed. Humne aaj subah me record kiya tha. (I recorded it in the morning.) That's alright. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation A -- June 14, 1976, Detroit (Conversation with Ambarisa and Catholic Priest) *We took a few pictures that you could see. We took some pictures for you to look at of the restaurant. It's still being built, so there's not actually that much to see. (break) This street that it's on is very heavily traveled all day. This is taken at about five o'clock in the morning, so there's no one there. It's still under construction, you can see all the cinderblocks inside. But it's all*-glass building. It is being rented or purchased? That's still being worked out. I think . . . I think we're going to purchase. . . . Ambarīṣa is purchasing. The back building? That is a different building? No, yeah. This is condominiums, houses, for people living above, so the restaurant is just that one floor. That's what we would be purchasing, not the whole building. The kitchen is inside the big building. *But it's very choice space. It's just two blocks from what's called the Ritz Hotel, which is most famous hotel in the country, they have in every large city. These pictures, that glassed*-in area, that would all be just the serving area. Then the kitchen is behind the wall. There would be a large kitchen facility, where all the devotees would be cooking. Kitchen is within the building? Yes. *So one*-story building also included? *Yes, there's a kitchen and dish*-washing room and office, storage . . . Storage space, office. All inside. Nice. Did you explain that it was being built for someone who was going to start a restaurant, but they didn't? Yes. They ran out of money, these people, and there were so many restrictions at this location because of these buildings here. People live there, and they didn't want anyone in there who was going to cook meat. And they didn't want anyone who was going to serve intoxication. So practically we're the only people that don't serve meat and intoxication. So it's actually . . . they are very glad. The man who owns it says he gets fifty phone calls every day of people who want that space. It's such a good space that fifty people a day call. Fifty? People are very interested. The location is excellent. It's on one of the most important streets in all of Boston. Once we get open we'll be able to serve a thousand people a day. Oh. And what you are charging? We're charging anywhere between three and eight dollars. Eight dollars for a very big plate, many preparations and different nectars and very sumptuous feast for eight dollars. And then if you just want a sandwich or something a little smaller, you can pay just three dollars. We think we'll be making about . . . how much? About half a million dollars a year, which will all go to you, Prabhupāda. (laughter) So we couldn't call the restaurant the "Hare Kṛṣṇa Restaurant" because there were some restrictions in the block, so we were thinking we'd call it "Saṅkīrtana." That's okay? Oh, yes. They are Hare Kṛṣṇa phobia. They are afraid. Yes. You have suggested "Saṅkīrtana"? Yes, they think that is nice. They do not know what that means. (laughs) Just like our Haridāsa. You know Haridāsa? Bombay? *Yes, uh*-huh. He, Moscow, he was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa on the street, and when people asked, "What is this?" "This is cinema song." Sometimes as devotees we have to be a little bit crooked. (indistinct Hindi) . . . we shall do everything as the material person does, karmīs do, but we have to do everything for Kṛṣṇa, not person. Then it is all right. So? There's one thing. Our best hours, some of the best business in the restaurant, would be very late at night, like between nine to eleven o'clock at night. So is that all right as long as we can arrange . . . Oh, yes. . . . everyone's following the program? People are up 'til midnight? Still they will come to the morning program. But there will be picture of Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Yes. *We should have a nice altar, small altar, Pañca*-tattva. The temple is only one block away. We were wondering, should we offer the food to the Deities in the temple or should we offer it in the restaurant? Better in the restaurant. Better in the restaurant. Yes, that is a little easier also. They must know that they're eating prasādam . Yes, yes. There was one other thing. Mānasvī, he is outside of New York, and I don't know very much what his position is. I talked to him once. He wanted to see you in New York, I don't know if you know that, because he says that all these things are not true. No. *He's a thief. He has taken about twenty*-five thousand dollars. He's a thief from the very beginning. What he is doing now? He's working two jobs. They won't allow him in the temple. I think you sent one letter or something. No, he should not be admitted. *Also in Boston there's a lady who may be donating a million*-dollar farm to the Boston temple. This is just a project that's a little bit . . . that's just started, and she wants to donate her farm. So that is also going on, and also the temple is purchasing the building next door. I gave them some money for a down payment on it so they could buy the building next door to use it to house the people that are living in the restaurant and also for the Bhaktivedanta Institute, because I think the Bhaktivedanta Institute is going to be in Boston. Mādhava is there. Yes, Boston is nice place for the Institute. Best place for it. It's the educational center of America. Academic center of the United States. So now we are fixing up the temple very nicely. We've spent about fifty thousand dollars putting in all new tile floor and a beautiful new onyx altar. Very, very gorgeous. So it is framework or solid building? The building? It's stone, brownstone. Oh, then it's nice. Very sound. It's in a very nice area in Boston. Commonwealth Avenue was the most aristocratic street in Boston. The temple is right there, just one block from downtown. Near Commonwealth Pier? Near Boston Commons. Boston Commons? The big park. Not park, there is a pier, pier, (pronounces "pire") what do you call? Oh, pier, pier. Oh, yes, it is near there, Prabhupāda. That's where you landed. Yes. (laughs) *Yes, it is not far. We're having Ratha*-yātrā in Boston for the first time this year, and we're going to take the Ratha carts down to Commonwealth Pier in honor of your arrival. Yes. (laughs) There is one A.P. store? A.P.? *A*-P, A-P store. Market? Yes, it's still there. Yes, that I saw first. (laughter) I remember. So there are many nice projects going on in Boston. We are hoping that maybe sometime you can come. That would be very nice. Oh, yes. From New York it is not . . . *No, it is very close to New York, half*-hour airplane ride. So it is ready? We were talking about different names for the restaurant yesterday. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja did not care for "Saṅkīrtana Restaurant." (laughs) I thought that there might be a name of Kṛṣṇa, like they were using "Govinda," but that's obviously a name for Kṛṣṇa. Because people don't . . . we wanted to camouflage. *We wanted to have a name that was Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, just exclusively Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So we thought "Saṅkīrtana." No other movement . . . we're the saṅkīrtana movement. So we thought that name would show that it was exclusively Hare Kṛṣṇa, whereas many other Indians they have named their store "Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Store," stuff like this. So we thought . . . Something perhaps more exotic. I was just thinking as a restaurant. We wanted something that was exclusively . . . They have started "Govinda's"? Yes, that is in Hawaii. Yes. Govinda's name is nice. Yes, I always liked. Now Laguna Beach, they are also calling it "Govinda's." Yes, so why not continue this "Govinda's"? Yes, we could. Okay. It's very good publicity. If many are started, they are all "Govinda's," then everyone will recognize it. Okay, there is no difficulty. *Govindam ādi*-puruṣam . So that's all right, "Govinda's." Okay. (pause) Hari-śauri looks like he can give a very good massage. He looks like he can give a very good massage. Mmm. Hari-śauri's one defect is he cannot cook. (laughter) Otherwise he is duplicate. Except cooking. He knows very good cooking. He can eat though. He can eat prasāda . So I can travel and cook? He can . . . a young man must eat. Why one should be like me? Śrutikīrti and Jaya. Jaya , Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (tape continues after entrance of Eugene Stansky, or Stowsky, a Catholic priest who had met Prabhupāda and the devotees in L.A. and was now traveling with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja) . . . the very best. Yes. I'm very, very pleased. I feel very blessed by being with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja. So just work cooperatively for the benefit of human society. We were just discussing our so many things. (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa) You can explain what I was talking. How the present civilization is . . . just like here in Detroit, producing so many cars. Kalke teen char baar apnar bishoye khoj korechilam. Apni chilen na. (I inquired about you three or four times yesterday. You were not there.) So how long can this civilization go on, simply producing automobiles, like this? So the situation is that the people are always in a state of poverty. Just like the black people here in Detroit, even they are making sufficient money, still they are always in a state of poverty because they don't know how to live. Prabhupāda related one story that the capitalist and the worker, both of them, they went to the goddess of fortune appealing for a benediction. So the capitalist asked: "Give me such money that I will be able to work one day and it will last me for six months." And then the worker, he went and he said, "Give me one thousand dollars I have every day to spend." No, he said that, "Give me the same money as the capitalist will spend in six months. I shall spend every day. I shall get that money every day and I shall spend it." So this worker class, there is no culture. You may pay them heavy amount of money, but they will spend it and remain a poor man, because he has no culture. This is true. *You see these black men. They earn sufficient money, but see their home. See their home. You America, you have given them equal rights, they are getting money, but they have no culture. Therefore you may pay them as much as you like, but still poverty*-stricken. In Africa also I have seen that they have got their own kingdom, independence, but if we go to the African slums, they are poverty-stricken, wretched. So this civilization will not endure. If there is no culture, simply by money you cannot maintain a standard of civilization. That is not possible. Now the American leaders, they are thinking, "Let us have money, then everything . . ." Of course, by money you are covering all the defects of the social culture. But this will not endure. Day will come when everything will be exposed. Therefore culture required. Prabhupāda was explaining how in India even the poorest people, they live—husband, wife, family, like this—in very . . . Happy. . . . simple quarters. Happily they live. As soon as there is no quarrel between the husband and wife, the home will be happy. And as soon as there is misunderstanding between husband, wife, it will be hell. So the principle is the husband honestly tries to earn livelihood, and at home the wife should be so intelligent that whatever money the husband has earned, she'll manage. She'll not demand, "Bring money, bring money, bring money. Otherwise it cannot be . . ." Then the home will be happy. So where is that training? (explaining) Where is that training? Well, there is no training here. There is no culture, as you pointed out. No, I mean to say culture, not training. As a matter of fact, even among the educated classes in the United States, there is no culture. There are no cultural roots. *No, no culture. There is no culture. There is no standard social life. Simply hodgepodge. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to bring everything in proper order. Everything is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . So America is the leading nation of the world. If you work on the principle of Bhagavad-gītā and train up your people, it will be ideal state and example for the whole world. At least a certain section of the American population should be ideal. That will also do. Not that . . . we cannot expect cent percent will take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not needed. But if there is one section of the people ideal, that will be followed. But we want to create that section, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. May I pose a question, Your Grace? It's less than two weeks that I'm asking you for the second time to instruct me. You gave me some very general instructions in my last audience, and I'm very grateful. Many things have transpired since then. I'm now here in Detroit; we'll be going on to Toronto very shortly. From Toronto to Chicago, and then I'm not sure what the agenda is. I'm tremendously pleased, because it's giving me an opportunity to work in the area that you said I should be working in. In addition to which I have ample time to study. And I have the assistance of Satsvarūpa with my studies. Now I have a question. I would like very much to keep a log of my daily activities and start preparing an outline of a book. Now the book very basically won't . . . I won't be starting on the book for at least a year, but I would like to start keeping a log. You can keep record. Yes. Now the reason I would like to keep a log and prepare an outline and start a book, say a year from now, it would show a transition from Roman priesthood to Hare Kṛṣṇa devotee. I think this would open up the door to all of the colleges and universities across the country. Very good idea, yes. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). The nature is, if we get better engagement, we give up inferior engagement. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. So this will be an example. You are a Roman priest. You are educated, learned scholar also. So when you come to this movement, you do not come here by sentiment or by whims. You consider, then you have come. This is what I wanted to say, that I'm not here because of sentiment. I'm here for very, very sound reasons, and I want to explain the reasons. *Therefore we are presenting these books, that we are not a so*-called sect of whimsical faith. It is based on science and authorities. Recently we have got report that our books have been taken in Hamburg University. You know Hamburg University? Yes. East Germany. As their textbook for Sanskrit class. They found it so wonderful. Because for Sanskrit scholar it is good opportunity to learn Sanskrit, because each word we have given in English and German synonyms. I want very much to learn basic Sanskrit, but I have so much to learn right now that, ah . . . No, it is not necessary. But those who are interested in studying Sanskrit literature, for them it is very good help. And at the same time they get sublime knowledge. Indeed. They study Sanskrit and get knowledge. So you have kindly come to join us. You study our philosophy very minutely, and then try to do something for the suffering humanity. The saintly persons, at least in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement, they are not meant for idle life. They are always busy for the welfare of the whole human society. This is the sign of saintly person. They are misguided and they are suffering, and it is the duty of the saintly person to give them instruction, education, how they can become really happy and make their life successful. This is saintly person. A saintly person doesn't mean to live at other's expenditure and do all nonsense things. This is not saintly person. Hmm. Ki kotha bolben . . . (What were you saying . . .) (break) You asked me some question? Well, I wanted to know whether it would be all right to keep the log and to write at the . . . work out the outline for the book. You told me to go ahead. So I will do that. Basically, this is what I wanted to do. I would like to continue with the group. I would like to travel with the group and keep an accurate log and start an outline and see, possibly within a year's time, I will have sufficient material to start the book. That's nice, huh? You like this idea? Yes. Ajke ingreji koto tarik? Ingreji? (What is the date today according to the English calendar?) These boys who are working for this movement? How do you like our men, the devotees? Oh, I'm very, very impressed. This impressed me to begin with—their enthusiasm, their joy, and their complete surrender. This is what . . . That is the qualification. This is the qualification. *Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). That is the secret of success. If one has got unflinching faith in his spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, then he's successful. Two things. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā-pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). So if the guru is false, then how they can keep their faith? That will be broken. Our process is very simple. There is no difficulty. You have seen our Los Angeles temple? Yes. When we purchased, it was a church, perhaps you know. Nobody was coming, so that they were obliged to sell. They started this Sunday class, this, that, so many things. In Melbourne also we have seen a big . . . what was that? It used to be what they call a Christian Brothers school. That we wanted to purchase? Oh, that nunnery. Nunnery. So they wanted to maintain themselves by becoming washermen. Still, they could not maintain. They eventually became washermen . . . washerwoman, to maintain. Huge establishment. So I wanted, negotiation was there. They persisted that the church should not be broken. No? To be broken. Yes, there were different sections. They had a school there and . . . So we thought that we shall use it as temple. That they disagreed. "No, you cannot keep it. You have to break it, then we can sell to you." Then why shall I break it? We shall pay for it and break it? No. Then the negotiation failed. But a huge land, and we are prepared to purchase. In England, in London, I was . . . one, two churches I was negotiating, and one church, that man, he said, "I'll burn into ashes. I'll not sell it to Bhaktivedanta." (laughs) Recently we wanted to purchase in St. James Park one nice house. So they did not give us. They . . . we offered better price; still they did not give us. Your Grace, the thing that impressed me the very most at the temple in Los Angeles . . . now you must bear in mind that I am very, very steeped in Catholicism, I'm very steeped in the New Testament. So when I observed what was happening at the temple in Los Angeles, I was seeing the Book of Acts coming to life—something that died three hundred years ago in the Roman church. In 300 A.D. it died. Since then there's been no such example. And I was just amazed, wandering around, because there I saw the exact book, the Book of Acts. And I was impressed. Humne aaj subah me record kiya tha. (I recorded it in the morning.) That's alright. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation A -- June 15, 1976, Detroit (Conversation with George Gullen, President of Wayne State University) . . . I'm the president of Wayne State University. I'm very pleased to be asked to come and visit with you. (break) You have studied something about our philosophy? I beg your pardon? I am asking, you have studied something about our philosophy? A little. Not very much. I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be, I'm certain. It is not a sectarian movement. (to someone else) Why you stop? Yes. (to Gullen) It is essential knowledge for the whole human society. There are two things: matter and spirit. We can understand, every one of us, we are combination of two things: matter and spirit. The matter is the body, and the spirit is the moving force. *Um*-hm, I hear what you're saying, yes. But the modern civilization, throughout the whole world, they are very serious about the matter, but they are completely in ignorance about the spirit. What is your opinion about these things? I understand that very clearly, and I think we're caught up terribly in matters that are not of the spirit. We're terribly caught up in materialistic things. But material, that is temporary. This body—your body, my body, anyone's body—that is temporary. It will not stay. It has taken birth at a certain date, it will endure for certain years, and then it will be finished. But the spirit, that will continue. It will accept another body. Just like we are accepting . . . we are giving up our body, childhood body, accepting the body of a boy, then giving up the boyhood body, accepting the body of a young man. Similarly, this body . . . just like I am an old man. This will be finished, and I will accept another body. So the spirit soul is eternal, and the body is temporary. So we are taking care of the body very much. That is also required. But what about the spirit soul? This education is lacking. Yes, this is true. My father was a Christian minister all of his life, and he had very deep beliefs about the spiritual matters. He felt very strongly, as you do, that the body was temporal, temporary, and that his spirit would find its way into some other form of life, and he believed very strongly in life after human death, very much so. He believed in a matter he called cosmic consciousness, in which the spirit had far greater powers than physical powers. He had similar kinds, I believe, of beliefs that you do. I have some beliefs myself that the human body being quite temporary, that years are not long for it, that there must be more to life than just the physical side. Everyone's body is temporary, either human body or cat's body, dog's body. But the human body is important because in the human body we have developed consciousness by which we can understand what is God. The cats and dogs, they cannot. They haven't got that developed consciousness. Therefore if we do not use this developed consciousness for understanding God and our relationship with Him, then we are no better than cats and dogs. Cats and dogs cannot be educated about God, but a human being can be educated. That is the distinction between animals and man. But modern education is keeping them in ignorance about God, so they are no better than cats and dogs. And how can bring peace among cats and dogs? Can you bring in peace calling all the dogs of your city and sit down peacefully? No, that is not possible. So if we keep our citizens like cats and dogs, then how we can expect peace? We are much in ignorance about those matters, I understand that, and . . . Yes. Complete ignorance, like animals. So the leaders of the society, if they are serious about advancement of human civilization, they must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness; otherwise, they'll be baffled. Well, we do not teach about these things . . . Yes, that is the defect. . . . in public schools because we do not know. Yes. Now whether still we shall remain in ignorance or we shall learn this science and teach? That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a sectarian religious movement. No, it is not that. This is science, scientific movement. So leading personalities like you, teachers, professors and other leading men, they should try to understand what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, and join. It is for the human society, it is not for a certain section. I would like very much to know more about these matters myself, personally. So kindly do that. You are little interested. So we are receiving orders from all universities, colleges, of our books. You have seen our books? These are our books. Wayne State University, where he is president, they have standing orders. Ah, we have also given. That is very nice. So every person, responsible person, he should learn this science and introduce, so that the opportunity a human being has got, that must be utilized. I'm sure there are many interpretations of what you say. I have an interest in these matters, and I want to know more about yours, very much so. I will see that I get your literature and read it. *Your father was also interested. That means naturally you have got some instinct from father, hereditary instinct. That is natural. So we want that . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā there is a verse. (aside) Find out: 3.21. "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues." Purport? *Purport: "People in general always require a leader who can teach the public by practical behavior. A leader cannot teach the public to stop smoking if he himself smokes. Lord Caitanya said that a teacher should behave properly even before he begins teaching. One who teaches in that way is called ācārya , or the ideal teacher. Therefore, a teacher must follow the principles of śāstra , scripture, to reach the common man. The teacher cannot manufacture rules against the principles of revealed scriptures. The revealed scriptures, like Manu*-saṁhitā and others, are considered the standard books to be followed by human society. Thus the leader's teaching should be based on the principles of the standard rules as they are practiced by the great teachers. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also affirms that one should follow in the footsteps of great devotees, and this is the way of progress on the path of spiritual realization. The king or the executive head of a state, the father and the schoolteacher are all considered to be natural leaders of the innocent people in general. All such natural leaders have a great responsibility to their dependents; therefore they must be conversant with standard books of moral and spiritual codes." Very good, very good. I believe all that. Every word. The people need leadership, inspiration, that they can follow with their whole heart. They cannot follow . . . *There must be practice. That we are teaching. That simply not theoretical, but practical. Here in our institute, we teach all the students practically how to become God conscious. Theoretical knowledge will not help us. There must be practical behavior. They are rising early in the morning, attending maṅgala-ārati , then having class, Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , chanting. In this way, twenty-four hours engaged. It is not fifteen minutes' recreation. No. Twenty-four hours' program. I think this is good for the world. I think the world needs it, very much so. So we are trying, although we are not supported by any government, we are trying in our own way. Own way . . . the way is standard, but unfortunately people have lost interest in these things. Animal life. As soon as we forget our interest in spiritual life, then immediately we're animals. We're very much creatures of habit, and it's difficult for us to give up our habits. *Habit can be changed. Habit can be changed by practice. Just like we advise no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat*-eating. So all these Europeans, Americans, they were habituated to all these habits, but now they have stopped. It can be, by practice, bad habits can be changed. You appear to have a program of great discipline, and I think that discipline is necessary for people who want to feel and learn and understand. I'm an admirer of discipline of that kind. But it's hard for one to bring oneself to do that out of a world that's strange, a strange world—our world is strange—try to bring myself out of that to other things. But I'm pleased to have this opportunity to hear you and to think about it, talk about it. I'd like to read more about it. One priest has joined us. What is his name? Eugene Stowsky. He's Ph.D. He has recently joined us. He likes this movement. I'm sure it satisfies a deep need. I'm sure that's true. *No, it is the need of the human society. There is no alternative. In the Vedic mantra it is said, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). One must accept this. Otherwise, his human life is spoiled. If you simply trained up to live like an animal, then it is a great harm to the human society. I think our educational program at our university is very important to people if it helps them think and understand and begin to feel. We don't educate the heart, and I think there's something wrong about that. I think that the heart needs an education. There's some feelings one has to understand and some responses. We're inadequate in this respect, I . . . No, the thing is . . . suppose a person, by his right, has to get so much money from his father's property. If somebody does not give him that money or somehow or other checks him to get the money, so that's a very heinous act. If he is actually inheritor of the father's property, he must get it. That is justice. Similarly, in the human form of life, one can get this education. If this education is lacking, that means we are envious; *we're not giving the opportunity of fulfilling the right. And without this education, there is chance of falling down. Just like tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Another body you have to accept. If you do not give proper education, then next body may be lower than human being. There are so many different types of bodies, 8,400,000. So according to our mentality, we get another body. Nature's law. Nobody can check it. This life I may be very satisfied that, "I have got this body. Let me enjoy without any responsibility and become an animal." That's not very good civilization. They do not believe in the next life. Big, big educated men, they have no brain even to understand that we are changing every moment the body, and they don't believe that body changes and the soul continues. Dhīras tatra na muhyati . (aside) Find out this verse. *"As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." These are difficult words to understand, but I appreciate them. Therefore dhīra . . . dhīras tatra. Dhīra means sober gentleman. Dhīra. Dhīra means gentleman. So if one does not understand this simple truth, he's not even a gentleman, what to speak of learned scholar. Dhīras tatra na muhyati . That means every gentleman must have this education. And what is the use? What is the meaning of dhīra ? Sober. Learned. That is gentleman. So one who does not understand this philosophy of life is not fit to be addressed as gentleman. It is commonsense knowledge. My father used to speak of the Oversoul, that I think had some similarity to these words that we just read, that the soul that is above . . . *We call Supersoul, that is God. The idea is in Christianity also, "Holy Ghost" like that. Supersoul and the ordinary soul. We living entities, we are ordinary souls, and God in His all*-pervading feature, He is Supersoul. (aside) Find out this verse: kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. *Kṣetra*-kṣetrajñayor jñānaṁ yat taj jñānaṁ yat anyatā. English? "O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its owner is called knowledge. That is My opinion." *First of all knowledge means kṣetra*-kṣetrajña. The body is the field of activity. You are acting, I am also acting, everyone is acting—according to the body. But the actor is called kṣetrajña . Just like a cultivator is tilling the land, his own, and the tiller is cultivator. Similarly, this body is an analogy of this field, and we are tilling. So Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am also one of the tillers." Just like the tenant and the landlord. In an apartment house, the tenant is occupier of a certain house, certain apartment, but the landlord is the owner of the whole house. So God says: "I am also kṣetrajña —but for all the building," everything that is there, all planets, all, everywhere. That is His all-pervasiveness. I am the proprietor of this body, owner of this body, but God is proprietor of all the bodies. In this way that is explained. (aside) Purport? Purport: "While discussing the subject of this body and the owner of the body, the soul and the Supersoul, we shall find three different topics of study—the Lord, the living entity and matter. In every field of activities, in every body, there are two souls—the individual soul and the Supersoul. Because the Supersoul is the plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says: 'I am also the knower, but I am not the individual owner of the body. I am the superknower. I am present in every body as the Paramātmā, or Supersoul.' " *"One who studies the subject matter of the field of activity and the knower of the field very minutely, in terms of this Bhagavad*-gītā , can attain to knowledge. The Lord says, 'I am the knower of the field of activities in every individual body.' The individual may be the knower of his own body, but he is not in knowledge of other bodies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is present as the Supersoul in all bodies, knows everything about all bodies. He knows all the different bodies of all the various species of life. A citizen may know everything about his patch of land, but the king knows not only his palace but all the properties possessed by the individual citizens. Similarly, one may be the proprietor of the body individually, but the Supreme Lord is the proprietor of all bodies. The king is the original proprietor of the kingdom, and the citizen is the secondary proprietor. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the supreme proprietor of all bodies." "The body consists of the senses. The Supreme Lord is Hṛṣīkeśa, which means controller of the senses. He is the original controller of the senses, just as the king is the original controller of all activities within the state, and the citizens are secondary controllers. The Lord also says: 'I am also the knower.' This means that He is the superknower; the individual soul knows only his particular body. In Vedic literature, it is also stated . . ." Just like pains and pleasure. You know your bodily pains and pleasure, I know my body. But I do not know your bodily pains, neither you know mine. But God knows everyone's pains and pleasures. That is the difference between God and individual soul. *"This body is called kṣetra , and within it dwells the owner of the body and the Supreme Lord, who knows both the body and the owner of the body. Therefore He is called the knower of all fields. The distinction between the field of activities, the owner of activities and the supreme owner of activities is described as follows. Perfect knowledge of the constitution of the body, the constitution of the individual soul and the constitution of the Supersoul is known in terms of Vedic literature as jñānam . That is the opinion of Kṛṣṇa. To understand both the soul and the Supersoul as one yet distinct is knowledge. One who does not understand the field of activity and the knower of activity is not in perfect knowledge. One has to understand the position of prakṛti , nature, and puruṣa , the enjoyer of the nature, and īśvara , the knower who dominates or controls nature and the individual soul. One should not confuse the three in their different capacities. One should not confuse the painter, the painting and the easel. This material world, which is the field of activities, is nature, and the enjoyer of nature is the living entity, and above them both is the supreme controller, the Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the Vedic language: bhoktā bhogyaṁ preritāraṁ ca matvā / sarvaṁ proktaṁ tri*-vidhaṁ brahmam etat (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 1.12). There are three Brahman conceptions: prakṛti is Brahman as the field of activities, and the jīva (individual soul) is also Brahman and is trying to control the material nature, and the controller of both of them is also Brahman, but He is the factual controller." "In this chapter it will be also explained that out of the two knowers, one is fallible and the other is infallible. One is superior and the other is subordinate. One who understands the two knowers of the field to be one and the same contradicts the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who states here very clearly that 'I am also the knower of the field of activity.' One who misunderstands a rope to be a serpent is not in knowledge. There are different kinds of bodies, and there are different owners of the bodies. Because each individual soul has his individual capacity of lording it over material nature, there are different bodies. But the Supreme also is present in them as the controller. The word ca is significant, for it indicates the total number of bodies. That is the opinion of Śrīla Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa: Kṛṣṇa is the Supersoul present in each and every body apart from the individual soul. And Kṛṣṇa explicitly says here that the Supersoul is the controller of both the field of activities and the finite enjoyer." Thank you for reading this to me. I'm afraid I must be discourteous and leave you at the moment. I am speaking at a dinner meeting for my university. All right. I was delighted with Miss Reuther's call, for the chance to come and for this opportunity to listen to you, and I'm very grateful to her for calling. Give him some prasādam . Here's some prasādam . Oh, thank you very much. (end) Conversation A -- June 15, 1976, Detroit (Conversation with George Gullen, President of Wayne State University) . . . I'm the president of Wayne State University. I'm very pleased to be asked to come and visit with you. (break) You have studied something about our philosophy? I beg your pardon? I am asking, you have studied something about our philosophy? A little. Not very much. I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be, I'm certain. It is not a sectarian movement. (to someone else) Why you stop? Yes. (to Gullen) It is essential knowledge for the whole human society. There are two things: matter and spirit. We can understand, every one of us, we are combination of two things: matter and spirit. The matter is the body, and the spirit is the moving force. *Um*-hm, I hear what you're saying, yes. But the modern civilization, throughout the whole world, they are very serious about the matter, but they are completely in ignorance about the spirit. What is your opinion about these things? I understand that very clearly, and I think we're caught up terribly in matters that are not of the spirit. We're terribly caught up in materialistic things. But material, that is temporary. This body—your body, my body, anyone's body—that is temporary. It will not stay. It has taken birth at a certain date, it will endure for certain years, and then it will be finished. But the spirit, that will continue. It will accept another body. Just like we are accepting . . . we are giving up our body, childhood body, accepting the body of a boy, then giving up the boyhood body, accepting the body of a young man. Similarly, this body . . . just like I am an old man. This will be finished, and I will accept another body. So the spirit soul is eternal, and the body is temporary. So we are taking care of the body very much. That is also required. But what about the spirit soul? This education is lacking. Yes, this is true. My father was a Christian minister all of his life, and he had very deep beliefs about the spiritual matters. He felt very strongly, as you do, that the body was temporal, temporary, and that his spirit would find its way into some other form of life, and he believed very strongly in life after human death, very much so. He believed in a matter he called cosmic consciousness, in which the spirit had far greater powers than physical powers. He had similar kinds, I believe, of beliefs that you do. I have some beliefs myself that the human body being quite temporary, that years are not long for it, that there must be more to life than just the physical side. Everyone's body is temporary, either human body or cat's body, dog's body. But the human body is important because in the human body we have developed consciousness by which we can understand what is God. The cats and dogs, they cannot. They haven't got that developed consciousness. Therefore if we do not use this developed consciousness for understanding God and our relationship with Him, then we are no better than cats and dogs. Cats and dogs cannot be educated about God, but a human being can be educated. That is the distinction between animals and man. But modern education is keeping them in ignorance about God, so they are no better than cats and dogs. And how can bring peace among cats and dogs? Can you bring in peace calling all the dogs of your city and sit down peacefully? No, that is not possible. So if we keep our citizens like cats and dogs, then how we can expect peace? We are much in ignorance about those matters, I understand that, and . . . Yes. Complete ignorance, like animals. So the leaders of the society, if they are serious about advancement of human civilization, they must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness; otherwise, they'll be baffled. Well, we do not teach about these things . . . Yes, that is the defect. . . . in public schools because we do not know. Yes. Now whether still we shall remain in ignorance or we shall learn this science and teach? That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a sectarian religious movement. No, it is not that. This is science, scientific movement. So leading personalities like you, teachers, professors and other leading men, they should try to understand what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, and join. It is for the human society, it is not for a certain section. I would like very much to know more about these matters myself, personally. So kindly do that. You are little interested. So we are receiving orders from all universities, colleges, of our books. You have seen our books? These are our books. Wayne State University, where he is president, they have standing orders. Ah, we have also given. That is very nice. So every person, responsible person, he should learn this science and introduce, so that the opportunity a human being has got, that must be utilized. I'm sure there are many interpretations of what you say. I have an interest in these matters, and I want to know more about yours, very much so. I will see that I get your literature and read it. *Your father was also interested. That means naturally you have got some instinct from father, hereditary instinct. That is natural. So we want that . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā there is a verse. (aside) Find out: 3.21. "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues." Purport? *Purport: "People in general always require a leader who can teach the public by practical behavior. A leader cannot teach the public to stop smoking if he himself smokes. Lord Caitanya said that a teacher should behave properly even before he begins teaching. One who teaches in that way is called ācārya , or the ideal teacher. Therefore, a teacher must follow the principles of śāstra , scripture, to reach the common man. The teacher cannot manufacture rules against the principles of revealed scriptures. The revealed scriptures, like Manu*-saṁhitā and others, are considered the standard books to be followed by human society. Thus the leader's teaching should be based on the principles of the standard rules as they are practiced by the great teachers. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also affirms that one should follow in the footsteps of great devotees, and this is the way of progress on the path of spiritual realization. The king or the executive head of a state, the father and the schoolteacher are all considered to be natural leaders of the innocent people in general. All such natural leaders have a great responsibility to their dependents; therefore they must be conversant with standard books of moral and spiritual codes." Very good, very good. I believe all that. Every word. The people need leadership, inspiration, that they can follow with their whole heart. They cannot follow . . . *There must be practice. That we are teaching. That simply not theoretical, but practical. Here in our institute, we teach all the students practically how to become God conscious. Theoretical knowledge will not help us. There must be practical behavior. They are rising early in the morning, attending maṅgala-ārati , then having class, Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , chanting. In this way, twenty-four hours engaged. It is not fifteen minutes' recreation. No. Twenty-four hours' program. I think this is good for the world. I think the world needs it, very much so. So we are trying, although we are not supported by any government, we are trying in our own way. Own way . . . the way is standard, but unfortunately people have lost interest in these things. Animal life. As soon as we forget our interest in spiritual life, then immediately we're animals. We're very much creatures of habit, and it's difficult for us to give up our habits. *Habit can be changed. Habit can be changed by practice. Just like we advise no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat*-eating. So all these Europeans, Americans, they were habituated to all these habits, but now they have stopped. It can be, by practice, bad habits can be changed. You appear to have a program of great discipline, and I think that discipline is necessary for people who want to feel and learn and understand. I'm an admirer of discipline of that kind. But it's hard for one to bring oneself to do that out of a world that's strange, a strange world—our world is strange—try to bring myself out of that to other things. But I'm pleased to have this opportunity to hear you and to think about it, talk about it. I'd like to read more about it. One priest has joined us. What is his name? Eugene Stowsky. He's Ph.D. He has recently joined us. He likes this movement. I'm sure it satisfies a deep need. I'm sure that's true. *No, it is the need of the human society. There is no alternative. In the Vedic mantra it is said, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). One must accept this. Otherwise, his human life is spoiled. If you simply trained up to live like an animal, then it is a great harm to the human society. I think our educational program at our university is very important to people if it helps them think and understand and begin to feel. We don't educate the heart, and I think there's something wrong about that. I think that the heart needs an education. There's some feelings one has to understand and some responses. We're inadequate in this respect, I . . . No, the thing is . . . suppose a person, by his right, has to get so much money from his father's property. If somebody does not give him that money or somehow or other checks him to get the money, so that's a very heinous act. If he is actually inheritor of the father's property, he must get it. That is justice. Similarly, in the human form of life, one can get this education. If this education is lacking, that means we are envious; *we're not giving the opportunity of fulfilling the right. And without this education, there is chance of falling down. Just like tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Another body you have to accept. If you do not give proper education, then next body may be lower than human being. There are so many different types of bodies, 8,400,000. So according to our mentality, we get another body. Nature's law. Nobody can check it. This life I may be very satisfied that, "I have got this body. Let me enjoy without any responsibility and become an animal." That's not very good civilization. They do not believe in the next life. Big, big educated men, they have no brain even to understand that we are changing every moment the body, and they don't believe that body changes and the soul continues. Dhīras tatra na muhyati . (aside) Find out this verse. *"As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." These are difficult words to understand, but I appreciate them. Therefore dhīra . . . dhīras tatra. Dhīra means sober gentleman. Dhīra. Dhīra means gentleman. So if one does not understand this simple truth, he's not even a gentleman, what to speak of learned scholar. Dhīras tatra na muhyati . That means every gentleman must have this education. And what is the use? What is the meaning of dhīra ? Sober. Learned. That is gentleman. So one who does not understand this philosophy of life is not fit to be addressed as gentleman. It is commonsense knowledge. My father used to speak of the Oversoul, that I think had some similarity to these words that we just read, that the soul that is above . . . *We call Supersoul, that is God. The idea is in Christianity also, "Holy Ghost" like that. Supersoul and the ordinary soul. We living entities, we are ordinary souls, and God in His all*-pervading feature, He is Supersoul. (aside) Find out this verse: kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. *Kṣetra*-kṣetrajñayor jñānaṁ yat taj jñānaṁ yat anyatā. English? "O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its owner is called knowledge. That is My opinion." *First of all knowledge means kṣetra*-kṣetrajña. The body is the field of activity. You are acting, I am also acting, everyone is acting—according to the body. But the actor is called kṣetrajña . Just like a cultivator is tilling the land, his own, and the tiller is cultivator. Similarly, this body is an analogy of this field, and we are tilling. So Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am also one of the tillers." Just like the tenant and the landlord. In an apartment house, the tenant is occupier of a certain house, certain apartment, but the landlord is the owner of the whole house. So God says: "I am also kṣetrajña —but for all the building," everything that is there, all planets, all, everywhere. That is His all-pervasiveness. I am the proprietor of this body, owner of this body, but God is proprietor of all the bodies. In this way that is explained. (aside) Purport? Purport: "While discussing the subject of this body and the owner of the body, the soul and the Supersoul, we shall find three different topics of study—the Lord, the living entity and matter. In every field of activities, in every body, there are two souls—the individual soul and the Supersoul. Because the Supersoul is the plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says: 'I am also the knower, but I am not the individual owner of the body. I am the superknower. I am present in every body as the Paramātmā, or Supersoul.' " *"One who studies the subject matter of the field of activity and the knower of the field very minutely, in terms of this Bhagavad*-gītā , can attain to knowledge. The Lord says, 'I am the knower of the field of activities in every individual body.' The individual may be the knower of his own body, but he is not in knowledge of other bodies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is present as the Supersoul in all bodies, knows everything about all bodies. He knows all the different bodies of all the various species of life. A citizen may know everything about his patch of land, but the king knows not only his palace but all the properties possessed by the individual citizens. Similarly, one may be the proprietor of the body individually, but the Supreme Lord is the proprietor of all bodies. The king is the original proprietor of the kingdom, and the citizen is the secondary proprietor. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the supreme proprietor of all bodies." "The body consists of the senses. The Supreme Lord is Hṛṣīkeśa, which means controller of the senses. He is the original controller of the senses, just as the king is the original controller of all activities within the state, and the citizens are secondary controllers. The Lord also says: 'I am also the knower.' This means that He is the superknower; the individual soul knows only his particular body. In Vedic literature, it is also stated . . ." Just like pains and pleasure. You know your bodily pains and pleasure, I know my body. But I do not know your bodily pains, neither you know mine. But God knows everyone's pains and pleasures. That is the difference between God and individual soul. *"This body is called kṣetra , and within it dwells the owner of the body and the Supreme Lord, who knows both the body and the owner of the body. Therefore He is called the knower of all fields. The distinction between the field of activities, the owner of activities and the supreme owner of activities is described as follows. Perfect knowledge of the constitution of the body, the constitution of the individual soul and the constitution of the Supersoul is known in terms of Vedic literature as jñānam . That is the opinion of Kṛṣṇa. To understand both the soul and the Supersoul as one yet distinct is knowledge. One who does not understand the field of activity and the knower of activity is not in perfect knowledge. One has to understand the position of prakṛti , nature, and puruṣa , the enjoyer of the nature, and īśvara , the knower who dominates or controls nature and the individual soul. One should not confuse the three in their different capacities. One should not confuse the painter, the painting and the easel. This material world, which is the field of activities, is nature, and the enjoyer of nature is the living entity, and above them both is the supreme controller, the Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the Vedic language: bhoktā bhogyaṁ preritāraṁ ca matvā / sarvaṁ proktaṁ tri*-vidhaṁ brahmam etat (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 1.12). There are three Brahman conceptions: prakṛti is Brahman as the field of activities, and the jīva (individual soul) is also Brahman and is trying to control the material nature, and the controller of both of them is also Brahman, but He is the factual controller." "In this chapter it will be also explained that out of the two knowers, one is fallible and the other is infallible. One is superior and the other is subordinate. One who understands the two knowers of the field to be one and the same contradicts the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who states here very clearly that 'I am also the knower of the field of activity.' One who misunderstands a rope to be a serpent is not in knowledge. There are different kinds of bodies, and there are different owners of the bodies. Because each individual soul has his individual capacity of lording it over material nature, there are different bodies. But the Supreme also is present in them as the controller. The word ca is significant, for it indicates the total number of bodies. That is the opinion of Śrīla Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa: Kṛṣṇa is the Supersoul present in each and every body apart from the individual soul. And Kṛṣṇa explicitly says here that the Supersoul is the controller of both the field of activities and the finite enjoyer." Thank you for reading this to me. I'm afraid I must be discourteous and leave you at the moment. I am speaking at a dinner meeting for my university. All right. I was delighted with Miss Reuther's call, for the chance to come and for this opportunity to listen to you, and I'm very grateful to her for calling. Give him some prasādam . Here's some prasādam . Oh, thank you very much. (end) Conversation -- June 16, 1976, Detroit (several devotees conversing about doctors and hepatitis) (Prabhupāda enters, offer obeisances) You can make little chewra . Same way Hari-śauri is making? Hmm. Same. Turn it off? Or on? It's on now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's on. On. That priest was very responsive. It's very nice. He wanted to become student. (laughs) He was becoming very enthusiastic. He was very enlivened. Anyone with a little intelligence, as soon as you begin to speak to them, they, immediately, they become so much enlivened. He's obviously . . . he's had some idea about organization and whatever, but he's never seen it practiced. And now he's come here and seen it practical. *Yes. This is practical training. That is wanted. Simply theoretical knowledge . . . that is helpful, but training, that is the greatest need, that we have to create a set of first*-class men. Then the world will be all right. That is an attempt of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to make first class, ideal. Why they'll be attracted? They are seeing that "The priests are doing the same thing as we are doing." So how they will be attracted? Therefore Christianity is failing. They are also having the meat, illicit sex, drunkard—and they're priest. They've watered down so much, there's no value left to what they're doing. They're exactly the same as a man in the street, except he says he believes in God and the man on the street says he doesn't believe. And they have no ability to convince a man that God exists. They have no scientific knowledge or whatever. Simply by the position—"I am Cardinal," "I am Pope," "I am priest," "I am that." How long it will go on? It's not going on very much longer anyway, there's so many . . . it's falling apart. There's so many branches. Just the fact that there's so many divisions now of Christianity, that this man was speaking about this charismatic movement. Now this is the young people. They're feeling a need for God, so they're trying to express it through another concocted form of Christianity. But that will also be a failure. Let us try honestly, that's all. As long as we can preach very purely, then the effect will be there. So by this time, we shall be in Toronto tomorrow. Yes. Three quarter . . . 5:45 the plane leaves. So we'll be there by 6:00, 6:40, something like that. They don't have a garden there, though. Time difference the same? No time difference? I don't think so. Oh, we'll have to go through Customs though. It's Canada, so we have to travel through Customs, what have you. We require passport? Visa? You've got? I think so. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja already has it sorted out. My U.S. visa allows me to travel outside the country and come back in unlimited amount of times. I don't . . . (laughs) In Toronto also, one boy there was telling us that the priest that was selling that church, he said that he would rather burn it down than sell it to us. But because this Indian man bought it for us, then we were able to get it. Ah, yes. It was sold to somebody else. But because it is an old church, the government municipality would not allow to break it. Then the man who purchased, he was obliged to sell to us. That's an exact duplicate of the situation that happened in Melbourne. That place was sold to a property developer, and then the National Trust put a classification on it, so he was not able to break it down, and neither could he utilize the extra space in the yard for building flats, because the Council would not allow him. So then we . . . they wouldn't . . . originally they would not sell to us. Same thing here. Nobody would purchase it on account of this black quarter. Nobody was purchasing, ready to purchase. So Kṛṣṇa is saving some very nice places for us. That is Kṛṣṇa's trick. (chuckles) Everyone talks of this, "We Eastern, we believe in this," and "We Western, we believe in this." You remain peaceful, everyone. Everyone is thinking like this. We have no such thing, Eastern, Western. It is fact. For everyone, it is good. Eastern, Western, we don't take. Several times, this question . . . I talk . . . I spoke in the American Embassy in Calcutta. They gave me the subject matter, "East and West." So I, in the beginning, I began to speak that we have no such dual, East and West. Hmm. Needs a higher consciousness. If she can make samosā . . . With the chewra . No, chewra may be avoided. Samosā . One will be enough. Either chewra or samosā , or both? No. Either of them. One or the other. Yes. But I shall prefer samosā . Oh, I'd better go down before she starts, then. (end) Conversation -- June 16, 1976, Detroit (several devotees conversing about doctors and hepatitis) (Prabhupāda enters, offer obeisances) You can make little chewra . Same way Hari-śauri is making? Hmm. Same. Turn it off? Or on? It's on now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's on. On. That priest was very responsive. It's very nice. He wanted to become student. (laughs) He was becoming very enthusiastic. He was very enlivened. Anyone with a little intelligence, as soon as you begin to speak to them, they, immediately, they become so much enlivened. He's obviously . . . he's had some idea about organization and whatever, but he's never seen it practiced. And now he's come here and seen it practical. *Yes. This is practical training. That is wanted. Simply theoretical knowledge . . . that is helpful, but training, that is the greatest need, that we have to create a set of first*-class men. Then the world will be all right. That is an attempt of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to make first class, ideal. Why they'll be attracted? They are seeing that "The priests are doing the same thing as we are doing." So how they will be attracted? Therefore Christianity is failing. They are also having the meat, illicit sex, drunkard—and they're priest. They've watered down so much, there's no value left to what they're doing. They're exactly the same as a man in the street, except he says he believes in God and the man on the street says he doesn't believe. And they have no ability to convince a man that God exists. They have no scientific knowledge or whatever. Simply by the position—"I am Cardinal," "I am Pope," "I am priest," "I am that." How long it will go on? It's not going on very much longer anyway, there's so many . . . it's falling apart. There's so many branches. Just the fact that there's so many divisions now of Christianity, that this man was speaking about this charismatic movement. Now this is the young people. They're feeling a need for God, so they're trying to express it through another concocted form of Christianity. But that will also be a failure. Let us try honestly, that's all. As long as we can preach very purely, then the effect will be there. So by this time, we shall be in Toronto tomorrow. Yes. Three quarter . . . 5:45 the plane leaves. So we'll be there by 6:00, 6:40, something like that. They don't have a garden there, though. Time difference the same? No time difference? I don't think so. Oh, we'll have to go through Customs though. It's Canada, so we have to travel through Customs, what have you. We require passport? Visa? You've got? I think so. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja already has it sorted out. My U.S. visa allows me to travel outside the country and come back in unlimited amount of times. I don't . . . (laughs) In Toronto also, one boy there was telling us that the priest that was selling that church, he said that he would rather burn it down than sell it to us. But because this Indian man bought it for us, then we were able to get it. Ah, yes. It was sold to somebody else. But because it is an old church, the government municipality would not allow to break it. Then the man who purchased, he was obliged to sell to us. That's an exact duplicate of the situation that happened in Melbourne. That place was sold to a property developer, and then the National Trust put a classification on it, so he was not able to break it down, and neither could he utilize the extra space in the yard for building flats, because the Council would not allow him. So then we . . . they wouldn't . . . originally they would not sell to us. Same thing here. Nobody would purchase it on account of this black quarter. Nobody was purchasing, ready to purchase. So Kṛṣṇa is saving some very nice places for us. That is Kṛṣṇa's trick. (chuckles) Everyone talks of this, "We Eastern, we believe in this," and "We Western, we believe in this." You remain peaceful, everyone. Everyone is thinking like this. We have no such thing, Eastern, Western. It is fact. For everyone, it is good. Eastern, Western, we don't take. Several times, this question . . . I talk . . . I spoke in the American Embassy in Calcutta. They gave me the subject matter, "East and West." So I, in the beginning, I began to speak that we have no such dual, East and West. Hmm. Needs a higher consciousness. If she can make samosā . . . With the chewra . No, chewra may be avoided. Samosā . One will be enough. Either chewra or samosā , or both? No. Either of them. One or the other. Yes. But I shall prefer samosā . Oh, I'd better go down before she starts, then. (end) Conversation A -- June 17, 1976, Toronto . . . except London. Haṁsadūta, when he was GBC . . . he's still GBC? Haṁsadūta? That part? No. No, Jayatīrtha is. So there was some complaint against him. Against Mādhavānanda? Hmm. The complaint is that he spent money on his own account lavishly. Hmm. I don't know about that. Some of the Life Members complained. I received several complaints. The other day I asked: "You collected some money for constructing temple, so where is that money?" So he gave explanation. So thirty . . . fifteen thousand pounds were collected by him. From Ambarīṣa? No, this was in England. Oh, in England. Oh. But there is only balance two thousand five hundred. Yes, just two or three thousand that's left. All the money, he said, spent. Now they are asking for loan for purchasing one house. This money was collected for temple construction. We were awaiting opportunity. In the meantime, money spent. Have there been any complaints from Detroit? Have there been any similar complaints from Detroit? In Detroit I have received complaint that . . . many . . . Govardhana was popular president. Yes. Popular. Everyone liked him. Yes, very gentle soul. Ah. So this is complaint I received. They don't like Mādhavānanda? Some of them say. He's forceful. He's quite a forceful person. What is this forceful? Well, if someone is very active, then it's only natural that some people will not be very keen on him, because he likes to get things done. Those that are a little slow, sometimes they complain. Maybe just that he's only been there a month or so. He's only been there not too long, so it's natural that it will take some time for the devotees to adapt to doing the things according to his direction rather than the way that they've been used to doing it. There's always some transition. You can know more about him from Haṁsadūta. As well Bhagavān. Bhagavān recommended him. He had been in Paris before coming to America. But his complaint was that he didn't speak French, so he didn't like to stay in France. Then he came to America, and he was distributing books with Tripurāri Mahārāja. Oh, he is very intelligent, there is no doubt, intelligent. And for preaching work he is good. But for becoming the manager in London, there were . . . what is that boy in Bombay? Oh, Prabhaviṣṇu? Prabhaviṣṇu. So, who would become president, there was war. (laughter) Haṁsadūta wanted Prabhaviṣṇu, and Mādhavānanda wanted that he would become president. In this way there was great faction. So the management was being done nicely. He was attracting Indians, faithful—they were following. But there were several complaints that he spent very lavishly on his personal account. Purchasing sārī . . . What do you think we should do, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Hmm? No, I do not wish to interfere. You manage now. I want to see that you are managing without my interference. Now practically I want to concentrate more, or absolutely I want to do that. But sometimes this mismanagement gives me too much anxiety. I do not wish to see that somehow or other we have built up a nice institution, on account of lack of management it may be hampered. That is my only anxiety. Now what is the position of the gurukula in Texas? Our gurukula , I have repeatedly said that we want simply to know English nicely—English is international language—and Sanskrit just to read and understand our literature. But we don't find any progress in that way. Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you say that we don't find any progress, do you mean just on account of Pradyumna's testimony? Or do you see beyond that, also, that there's no progress. No. Pradyumna, of course, personally saw. But when I was in Dallas I could not find any good progress. How do you judge that progress? The chanting of the Sanskrit verses. Not all of them could do it very nicely. It is only practice, and . . . apart from Pradyumna. So his complaint is that he cannot write even 1, 2, 3, 4, up to ten. I know we have some good people. Huh? We have some good, qualified people, and I'm organizing . . . I saw some machine purchased, some, for publishing, some . . . Printing machine. Printing. Why this is going on? Those were purchased before I got involved. Just see. That means money was spent unnecessarily, without any tangible result. So Dayānanda left. He was there . . . without any consultation, he left. So what to do with all these things? I think I have it under control. I have plans . . . *You see these two things especially, that they . . . English is their mother tongue, mother language. They can easily become English scholar very easily. And Sanskrit language is no difficulty. Read and write, read and write, then he will learn. Our education in Sanskrit was in college. Of course, I was the best student in my class of Sanskrit. I was standing first. But we are not like the so*-called Sanskrit scholars. But for our purpose we can read and write, that's all. Similarly, we don't want any very learned scholars, Sanskrit grammarian, to manufacture jugglery of words, meanings. No, we don't want that. Simply we can conduct our business, that's all. Just like Marwaris, they, their education is up to their business understanding, that's all. They don't want to be scholars or technologists. You won't find in big, big Marwari families they have become a doctor, engineer or technologist. No. But in business dealings they are first class. (laughs) That they train. I had one Marwari friend in Calcutta. He was a very rich businessman and has got several mills. So sometimes I went to his house. I saw that he had engaged a Sanskrit paṇḍita and an English teacher, that's all. So I asked him, "You don't send your children to school?" "No, no, no, no. I . . . if we require some technologist, we can purchase. You pay some money, so many technologists you will get, M.A., Ph.D., D.H.C., C.H.C. 'All right, take payment and do business.' " They employ very, very, very large salary. But on the head, management, their own sons, grandsons. You've explained this to me a number of times, and I think I'm beginning to understand. *Yes. Knowledge is spiritual knowledge. Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Now, of course, social condition have changed. There are so many factories, and they require technical knowledge. But we are not going to the factories. That is sure and certain. Neither we are going to start any factory. That is not our business. Our factory at most, cut-cut, hut-hut , that's all. We don't want to start . . . (indistinct) . . . factory or Ford factory and make a hell out of life, the hell. I used to work in a steelworks. It's worse than hell. It is more than hell. There is no life. I have been in Tata steel, iron factory. Oh, I saw it is a hell. One melting pot just like a skyscraper building. You have seen? I used to work on them, same thing. I was working where they pour the metal into ingots, into casings, and then when it solidifies they take a chunk of iron out, it's still white hot, and then they put it in ovens. And then after a while, when they need them, they take them out with big cranes and they put them on a series of rollers, and then it goes through a mill, what they call a mill. It's like a big mangling machine, and it crushes the steel ingot into plates, big plates. Then it goes along and it's cut and sent out. It cools down on big banks and it's sent out. So my job was . . . I was doing maintenance fitting on all those machines—on the rollers and on the cranes and on the big mills, like that. It was terrible. We used to work from two o'clock in the afternoon until ten o'clock at night, one shift, then from ten until six, and then from six until two. Eight hours. Without any recreation? Well, one break, one break, for lunch. It was just indescribable. There's so much heat and fumes, and always covered in oil and grease, crawling around on your hands and knees to fix some machine, or . . . All for the advantage of some wealthy man. And after this hard labor, his only recreation is wine. Did you drink? (laughs) Yes, we used to go straight from the steelworks to the pub, public house. I also worked in a factory for a while. Same thing. And people were always getting hurt. You are not meant for that. (laughs) No. I thought you joined from college? Yes, but during the summer I had a job in a factory. Oh, to get some money. Yes. (pause) This girl Elizabeth paid so much money, it is due to Govardhana. Due to . . .? Govardhana. Yes, Ambarīṣa also. Ambarīṣa also has given money due to Govardhana. He's a very gentle soul. His behavior is well enough. His background is good service. Therefore I'm asking why he should be changed. But if he's not very fixed up, then . . . That can be . . . One thing, if I had not been tied up in Dallas with gurukula , I could have spent more time in Detroit, and I think that would have helped the situation. Because he was alone, working alone . . . Now one thing is that he has given service for the benefit of the Society. Very tangible service. He can be in charge of book distribution. Mādhavānanda. *Yes, that would be good, if they were co*-managers or something like that. Govardhana president? Yes, why not? You should recognize his service. Otherwise he may be dis . . . He induced persons to do some . . . that you cannot neglect. (break) Paper men coming? Yes, Jayādvaita's going to talk to them a little first, give them prasāda , just explain the basics of the movement so that they, you know, they may be a little favorable. . . . they'll understand Otherwise, if they just come and go . . . It is very difficult to understand that our movement is spiritual movement, and they do not understand what is spiritual, the whole world. That is the defect. But still we are going on. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise, (chuckling) nobody understands what is the aim or what is the platform. (children outside yell "Hare Kṛṣṇa") (laughter) It's amazing when you think how we're expanding all the time. It's really amazing. It is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Therefore they take us as one of these Gurujī and Bābājī, like this, like that. But when they read our books, higher class, they understand the seriousness of it. They admit that this is India's original, traditional knowledge. Higher, higher circle, they don't want any imitation. No. Someone with a little intelligence, he's not befooled by . . . No. During British period, high British officers, big, big managers, they liked Indians with original culture. They did not like any Indian with European imitation—pants, coats. They did not like these imitations. My Godbrother, that German, Sadānanda . . . you have heard his name or you have seen him? No. When he came to India, he was my intimate friend. So he was telling me that, "In our country, when some Indian student comes, especially while returning home after their education, they stop for some time in Germany. We used to inquire from him how much he is aware of his Indian original culture." Because they have got very good respect. All over the world they have got. Even Russia, they have got good respect for Indian culture. They have liked our books only on account of the . . . because the Sanskrit verses are there. They took it, "Oh, it is original." Scholarly people like our book on that account, that we explain original Sanskrit verse. That they have got very good regard, that there is knowledge. They're impressed. And Britishers made propaganda only that India had no culture, almost uncivilized: they push women forcibly in the fire after the death of her husband, and in the temple, the priests, they make all nonsense with women, and so on. This was their . . . just to prove that, "India was uncivilized, and we are making them civilized. By our compassion for the uncivilized persons, we are occupying." (laughs) They used to call that the "White man's burden." Ah, yes. So these English people, they were very expert in making propaganda. They killed Hitler by propaganda. I don't think Hitler was so bad man. What do you think? (laughs) You are Englishman. (laughter) I can . . . (laughs) Just from hearing you speak in the last few months I can understand that the whole history that I was ever presented in school is completely warped around to the way that the English saw it, especially the last two centuries, when the British Empire was on the move. It's completely . . . But actually, the war was between Germany and England. Others joined, some interest or something. Actually, the war was to be fought between England and Germany. There's one devotee who joined in Toronto, Frenchman, and he was in France at the time of the war. He's an older man. And he told me also . . . his father was French, but he was sympathetic to the Nazis, and that it was actually Maxmillian or one of the Frenchmen who sided with the British, but the majority of the French people didn't mind the German occupation. It was due to one of the political factions siding with the British that there was a French underground and . . . France, they are always enemy of Englishmen. There is is old history—Hundred Years War, Seven Years War. Napoleon also wanted to cut down the Britishers. France is dead enemy of England, and there is always competition. Even just with de Gaulle also. France is not friendly to India, uh, England. England has always been inimical with the rest of Europe—with Germany, France, Spain, everyone. *Yes. Because they thought, "This is a third*-class nation, a small island, fishermen, and they have . . . (indistinct) . . .?" That is natural. (laughs) Whole world. In our childhood, we used to see map, almost whole world red—red means British. (laughter) They said that there was no sunset in the British Empire. This Frenchman also says that he . . . German people still hate England. They do not like to speak in English; *that I have seen. In the bank they know English, but they won't speak it. (laughs) English everyone knows. That Kaiser was against. They said that Kaiser is the grandson of Queen Victoria, from daughter's side. And King George from the son's side—Edward's seventh's son. They were cousin*-brothers. So this Kaiser, when he was young boy, went to paternal uncle's house, when he was a young boy. So there was some playing, cut with a knife. So royal family, so many doctors came. So the boy was saying: "Why you are trying to cure it? Let the English blood go away." (laughs) So from the childhood he was so inimical that, "I have got some English blood in my body—my mother is English, father German—so let the English blood go away." I do not know if that is fact; I heard it. (laughs) Maybe. It is joking also and serious. *In our childhood, in the school, a book was there, England's Work in India . One Mr. M. Ghosh, he wrote this book just to flatter the Englishmen. This, that "White man's burden." And it was the impression in those days: just to become like Englishmen, that is civilization. The Parsis in Bombay, they were the first*-class flatterer, imitation, how to become like English lords, barons. This Tata factory was started by such ambition. They wanted to be English baron, lord, industrialist. In Calcutta also. Where our temple is, that is called sāhīb quarter. In our childhood we used to say sāhīb quarter. Sāhīb quarter means European neighborhood. They say our temple is sāhīb mandira in Māyāpur. And in Vṛndāvana, aṇgrejī mandira . The same impression. To become sāhīb , that was great prestigious. Yes. (laughs) They actually had no resources whatsoever, the British. They had no resources whatsoever. *That was the mission of Hitler that, "These people are shopkeepers' nation, fisherman's nation. How they have become so big? This must be finished." Because their business was being hampered by the Britishers. In India we have seen. German and Japan, very cheap and first*-class goods they will supply. The Britishers would not allow. Yes, at that time, anything that was made in England automatically was considered first class. Oh, yes, any rascal thing. They made a good market. And British Empire means to sell their goods. And they, for that purpose, they became rich. Money was drawn from all parts, especially from India. Everything. Later on, gradually we came to understand. In Lucknow, because I was in medical business, so I saw one Japanese salesman was selling one medicine, one or two items, potassiodide. Do you know? No. Potassium iodide. And another, iodine. He was selling at four rupees, eight annas a pound. But we were accustomed to purchase English potassiodide and iodine, thirteen rupees a pound. That Howard's. Very famous, Howard's Chemicals, like that. They were selling. So I doubted that "How so much cheap this Japanese firm can supply?" And they used to advertise that all these Japanese goods are third class. There was big propaganda. Yes, "German goods are second class. Our goods, first class." So I inquired from the salesman, "How is it that you are supplying so cheap?" "They're supplying . . . the price is the real price." "Now, why they charge more?" "They purchase from us and pack and sell." There are many big chemical concerns in Germany. Germans are very good manufacturers, especially of chemicals, iron, machine. Still you find, all this Uher and, what is called, Gundsag? Grundig. *They're all German. All first*-class machine you'll find. This Mercedes motorcar, they're all German. They don't manufacture third-class thing. Everything they manufacture first class. Still, the Germans suffered so much, but when I was in Germany I saw they are very prosperous. (pause) Now we have to get them interested in your books. Hmm? Germans. Yes. I don't think we have any reviews from any big German scholars yet. But if they have ordered for their textbook, that order will be . . . East Germany, yes. Their order itself will be a testimony, if they order in their own form, "Supply this." Max Mueller was German. So long we are in this material world, this competition, animosity . . . even in the higher planetary system, there is no peaceful condition. (pause) You're feeling headache? (Prabhupāda has very bad toothache) No, there is some pain. My teeth are now useless. So it is all rotten now. Sometimes it becomes acute. There is no strength in the teeth. Some of them, fifty percent, have already fallen, therefore I cannot eat. I think that a very nutritious diet can be made just from liquids. Liquids, yes. Milk is the best food. Children, when there is no teeth, milk is the food. In Western country also, I think old men, they take milk and puffed rice. Is it? Yes. Soft foods, anyway. In India, especially in Bengal, there is a preparation, it is softer than the puffed rice— khai , fused rice. That is very good. Light, at the same time soft purgative. That milk mixed with is a very good food for old men. In that newspaper article in the Butler Eagle , that very first article when you just arrived that we saw? They showed that copy in Los Angeles. It mentioned, the reporter there, he quoted you as saying that—you were telling him about milk, how good it was—and he quoted you as saying that milk is the miracle food for babies and old men. Yes. That's a fact. No, it may be there are so many other food, but cent percent of the human society, everyone has some way or other taken milk. So morally, cow is our mother. How these mothers are being killed? That is the question. Where is morality? Where is . . .? And they are drawing last drop of the milk. And there is necessity of milk. "After taking whatever money you have got . . . take, and I shall kill you." What is this? Horrible society. If I take from you whatever you have got in your pocket and then I kill you, what is this society? The only thing that stops them from killing each other is that there are certain laws. Otherwise, I'm sure that the human beings are so barbaric that they would kill each other. Actually, they are making adjustments to the law so that they can do that. *Yes, in India, in Vṛndāvana, they are killing now for a little money. They are so poverty*-stricken. They have got a clique. Because in Vṛndāvana there are many retired men; they get some money from bank or some saving bank in post office. And they have got clique with this post office man and the bank clerk who has taken money. Bon Mahārāja was attacked. He brought some one lakh rupees, one and a half lakh rupees for some . . . he was recognized by the . . . so as soon, at night—he was living in the Institute—attacked, in the presence of police. Police was guarding that others may not come to help. The police were helping the thieves? Yes. I think the magistrate even was complicated. And when it was complained, the magistrate said: "Better not to take it seriously; it will be your . . . I'll give you some guard." That's all. They'll do anything for money. *Now, in the Kali*-yuga, things will degrade so low that if I see I have no money and if you have got some few cents with you, I shall kill you and take it. That day will come. Very dangerous condition is coming forward. Yes, if things go on like this . . . just like we saw in Detroit, the whole city is dangerously situated. Therefore nobody purchased that house. Eighty percent of the people in the city are black. And the white men, they are very much afraid of these black men. They have to be afraid. They've taken over the city. *Without them, the factories cannot go on. That's all. The white men cannot work so hard. How they . . .? No gentleman can do that. This kind of work is meant for the fourth*-class, fifth-class men. Therefore they cannot say anything. They require. And they know that their money will be taken away again by supplying them wine. They'll pay, and next moment, the wine merchant will take away. And the government will get huge profit without doing anything. And excise tax. Excise tax, government hasn't got to invest or do anything—simply take the tax. Every time they put a tax increase, it's always on beer and cigarettes. Always, every time. And motorcars. Because they know the people are so much addicted that even if they squeeze and squeeze and squeeze, they will still get more, and the people will still pay. And addicted people, they, they're after the . . . get money some way or other, beg, borrow or steal. So these black men especially, they are expert. They are not expert in begging, but borrowing and stealing. Is it possible, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will, in the future, turn the tide and gain predominating influence? Change . . . Thing is that if the leaders of the society, they come to their consciousness, that this way the society cannot be peaceful, the way they are now conducting . . . if they have brain . . . just like the other day, the Christian priest, he was speaking of disabled men. You were present? "I challenge you, what do you mean by disabled man? If one man has lost his arm, can you supply it?" Then he stopped. He was finished when you told him it was all imaginary. Yes, actually. What you can do? Other than yourself, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no one in the world has a vision how to save the world. Because I honestly think of it. Maybe others are also honest, but they do not know the right way. How they can be honest? Just like this Communist movement, now they are favoring the labor class and rejecting the capitalist class altogether. They cannot make any adjustment. I've understood that communism is presented by the administrative class when there is a condition of scarcity. When there is opulence, then there is room for personal, individual enterprise, but when there is scarcity, that cannot be encouraged, and the common people have to be subjugated. So capitalism and communism are both simply philosophies how to keep the common man satisfied. So it's simply another means of exploitation. Yes, it is exploitation, and actually they have done it. There is still one class of men living at the expense of another, whether it's Communist or capitalist . . . (end) Conversation A -- June 17, 1976, Toronto . . . except London. Haṁsadūta, when he was GBC . . . he's still GBC? Haṁsadūta? That part? No. No, Jayatīrtha is. So there was some complaint against him. Against Mādhavānanda? Hmm. The complaint is that he spent money on his own account lavishly. Hmm. I don't know about that. Some of the Life Members complained. I received several complaints. The other day I asked: "You collected some money for constructing temple, so where is that money?" So he gave explanation. So thirty . . . fifteen thousand pounds were collected by him. From Ambarīṣa? No, this was in England. Oh, in England. Oh. But there is only balance two thousand five hundred. Yes, just two or three thousand that's left. All the money, he said, spent. Now they are asking for loan for purchasing one house. This money was collected for temple construction. We were awaiting opportunity. In the meantime, money spent. Have there been any complaints from Detroit? Have there been any similar complaints from Detroit? In Detroit I have received complaint that . . . many . . . Govardhana was popular president. Yes. Popular. Everyone liked him. Yes, very gentle soul. Ah. So this is complaint I received. They don't like Mādhavānanda? Some of them say. He's forceful. He's quite a forceful person. What is this forceful? Well, if someone is very active, then it's only natural that some people will not be very keen on him, because he likes to get things done. Those that are a little slow, sometimes they complain. Maybe just that he's only been there a month or so. He's only been there not too long, so it's natural that it will take some time for the devotees to adapt to doing the things according to his direction rather than the way that they've been used to doing it. There's always some transition. You can know more about him from Haṁsadūta. As well Bhagavān. Bhagavān recommended him. He had been in Paris before coming to America. But his complaint was that he didn't speak French, so he didn't like to stay in France. Then he came to America, and he was distributing books with Tripurāri Mahārāja. Oh, he is very intelligent, there is no doubt, intelligent. And for preaching work he is good. But for becoming the manager in London, there were . . . what is that boy in Bombay? Oh, Prabhaviṣṇu? Prabhaviṣṇu. So, who would become president, there was war. (laughter) Haṁsadūta wanted Prabhaviṣṇu, and Mādhavānanda wanted that he would become president. In this way there was great faction. So the management was being done nicely. He was attracting Indians, faithful—they were following. But there were several complaints that he spent very lavishly on his personal account. Purchasing sārī . . . What do you think we should do, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Hmm? No, I do not wish to interfere. You manage now. I want to see that you are managing without my interference. Now practically I want to concentrate more, or absolutely I want to do that. But sometimes this mismanagement gives me too much anxiety. I do not wish to see that somehow or other we have built up a nice institution, on account of lack of management it may be hampered. That is my only anxiety. Now what is the position of the gurukula in Texas? Our gurukula , I have repeatedly said that we want simply to know English nicely—English is international language—and Sanskrit just to read and understand our literature. But we don't find any progress in that way. Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you say that we don't find any progress, do you mean just on account of Pradyumna's testimony? Or do you see beyond that, also, that there's no progress. No. Pradyumna, of course, personally saw. But when I was in Dallas I could not find any good progress. How do you judge that progress? The chanting of the Sanskrit verses. Not all of them could do it very nicely. It is only practice, and . . . apart from Pradyumna. So his complaint is that he cannot write even 1, 2, 3, 4, up to ten. I know we have some good people. Huh? We have some good, qualified people, and I'm organizing . . . I saw some machine purchased, some, for publishing, some . . . Printing machine. Printing. Why this is going on? Those were purchased before I got involved. Just see. That means money was spent unnecessarily, without any tangible result. So Dayānanda left. He was there . . . without any consultation, he left. So what to do with all these things? I think I have it under control. I have plans . . . *You see these two things especially, that they . . . English is their mother tongue, mother language. They can easily become English scholar very easily. And Sanskrit language is no difficulty. Read and write, read and write, then he will learn. Our education in Sanskrit was in college. Of course, I was the best student in my class of Sanskrit. I was standing first. But we are not like the so*-called Sanskrit scholars. But for our purpose we can read and write, that's all. Similarly, we don't want any very learned scholars, Sanskrit grammarian, to manufacture jugglery of words, meanings. No, we don't want that. Simply we can conduct our business, that's all. Just like Marwaris, they, their education is up to their business understanding, that's all. They don't want to be scholars or technologists. You won't find in big, big Marwari families they have become a doctor, engineer or technologist. No. But in business dealings they are first class. (laughs) That they train. I had one Marwari friend in Calcutta. He was a very rich businessman and has got several mills. So sometimes I went to his house. I saw that he had engaged a Sanskrit paṇḍita and an English teacher, that's all. So I asked him, "You don't send your children to school?" "No, no, no, no. I . . . if we require some technologist, we can purchase. You pay some money, so many technologists you will get, M.A., Ph.D., D.H.C., C.H.C. 'All right, take payment and do business.' " They employ very, very, very large salary. But on the head, management, their own sons, grandsons. You've explained this to me a number of times, and I think I'm beginning to understand. *Yes. Knowledge is spiritual knowledge. Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Now, of course, social condition have changed. There are so many factories, and they require technical knowledge. But we are not going to the factories. That is sure and certain. Neither we are going to start any factory. That is not our business. Our factory at most, cut-cut, hut-hut , that's all. We don't want to start . . . (indistinct) . . . factory or Ford factory and make a hell out of life, the hell. I used to work in a steelworks. It's worse than hell. It is more than hell. There is no life. I have been in Tata steel, iron factory. Oh, I saw it is a hell. One melting pot just like a skyscraper building. You have seen? I used to work on them, same thing. I was working where they pour the metal into ingots, into casings, and then when it solidifies they take a chunk of iron out, it's still white hot, and then they put it in ovens. And then after a while, when they need them, they take them out with big cranes and they put them on a series of rollers, and then it goes through a mill, what they call a mill. It's like a big mangling machine, and it crushes the steel ingot into plates, big plates. Then it goes along and it's cut and sent out. It cools down on big banks and it's sent out. So my job was . . . I was doing maintenance fitting on all those machines—on the rollers and on the cranes and on the big mills, like that. It was terrible. We used to work from two o'clock in the afternoon until ten o'clock at night, one shift, then from ten until six, and then from six until two. Eight hours. Without any recreation? Well, one break, one break, for lunch. It was just indescribable. There's so much heat and fumes, and always covered in oil and grease, crawling around on your hands and knees to fix some machine, or . . . All for the advantage of some wealthy man. And after this hard labor, his only recreation is wine. Did you drink? (laughs) Yes, we used to go straight from the steelworks to the pub, public house. I also worked in a factory for a while. Same thing. And people were always getting hurt. You are not meant for that. (laughs) No. I thought you joined from college? Yes, but during the summer I had a job in a factory. Oh, to get some money. Yes. (pause) This girl Elizabeth paid so much money, it is due to Govardhana. Due to . . .? Govardhana. Yes, Ambarīṣa also. Ambarīṣa also has given money due to Govardhana. He's a very gentle soul. His behavior is well enough. His background is good service. Therefore I'm asking why he should be changed. But if he's not very fixed up, then . . . That can be . . . One thing, if I had not been tied up in Dallas with gurukula , I could have spent more time in Detroit, and I think that would have helped the situation. Because he was alone, working alone . . . Now one thing is that he has given service for the benefit of the Society. Very tangible service. He can be in charge of book distribution. Mādhavānanda. *Yes, that would be good, if they were co*-managers or something like that. Govardhana president? Yes, why not? You should recognize his service. Otherwise he may be dis . . . He induced persons to do some . . . that you cannot neglect. (break) Paper men coming? Yes, Jayādvaita's going to talk to them a little first, give them prasāda , just explain the basics of the movement so that they, you know, they may be a little favorable. . . . they'll understand Otherwise, if they just come and go . . . It is very difficult to understand that our movement is spiritual movement, and they do not understand what is spiritual, the whole world. That is the defect. But still we are going on. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise, (chuckling) nobody understands what is the aim or what is the platform. (children outside yell "Hare Kṛṣṇa") (laughter) It's amazing when you think how we're expanding all the time. It's really amazing. It is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Therefore they take us as one of these Gurujī and Bābājī, like this, like that. But when they read our books, higher class, they understand the seriousness of it. They admit that this is India's original, traditional knowledge. Higher, higher circle, they don't want any imitation. No. Someone with a little intelligence, he's not befooled by . . . No. During British period, high British officers, big, big managers, they liked Indians with original culture. They did not like any Indian with European imitation—pants, coats. They did not like these imitations. My Godbrother, that German, Sadānanda . . . you have heard his name or you have seen him? No. When he came to India, he was my intimate friend. So he was telling me that, "In our country, when some Indian student comes, especially while returning home after their education, they stop for some time in Germany. We used to inquire from him how much he is aware of his Indian original culture." Because they have got very good respect. All over the world they have got. Even Russia, they have got good respect for Indian culture. They have liked our books only on account of the . . . because the Sanskrit verses are there. They took it, "Oh, it is original." Scholarly people like our book on that account, that we explain original Sanskrit verse. That they have got very good regard, that there is knowledge. They're impressed. And Britishers made propaganda only that India had no culture, almost uncivilized: they push women forcibly in the fire after the death of her husband, and in the temple, the priests, they make all nonsense with women, and so on. This was their . . . just to prove that, "India was uncivilized, and we are making them civilized. By our compassion for the uncivilized persons, we are occupying." (laughs) They used to call that the "White man's burden." Ah, yes. So these English people, they were very expert in making propaganda. They killed Hitler by propaganda. I don't think Hitler was so bad man. What do you think? (laughs) You are Englishman. (laughter) I can . . . (laughs) Just from hearing you speak in the last few months I can understand that the whole history that I was ever presented in school is completely warped around to the way that the English saw it, especially the last two centuries, when the British Empire was on the move. It's completely . . . But actually, the war was between Germany and England. Others joined, some interest or something. Actually, the war was to be fought between England and Germany. There's one devotee who joined in Toronto, Frenchman, and he was in France at the time of the war. He's an older man. And he told me also . . . his father was French, but he was sympathetic to the Nazis, and that it was actually Maxmillian or one of the Frenchmen who sided with the British, but the majority of the French people didn't mind the German occupation. It was due to one of the political factions siding with the British that there was a French underground and . . . France, they are always enemy of Englishmen. There is is old history—Hundred Years War, Seven Years War. Napoleon also wanted to cut down the Britishers. France is dead enemy of England, and there is always competition. Even just with de Gaulle also. France is not friendly to India, uh, England. England has always been inimical with the rest of Europe—with Germany, France, Spain, everyone. *Yes. Because they thought, "This is a third*-class nation, a small island, fishermen, and they have . . . (indistinct) . . .?" That is natural. (laughs) Whole world. In our childhood, we used to see map, almost whole world red—red means British. (laughter) They said that there was no sunset in the British Empire. This Frenchman also says that he . . . German people still hate England. They do not like to speak in English; *that I have seen. In the bank they know English, but they won't speak it. (laughs) English everyone knows. That Kaiser was against. They said that Kaiser is the grandson of Queen Victoria, from daughter's side. And King George from the son's side—Edward's seventh's son. They were cousin*-brothers. So this Kaiser, when he was young boy, went to paternal uncle's house, when he was a young boy. So there was some playing, cut with a knife. So royal family, so many doctors came. So the boy was saying: "Why you are trying to cure it? Let the English blood go away." (laughs) So from the childhood he was so inimical that, "I have got some English blood in my body—my mother is English, father German—so let the English blood go away." I do not know if that is fact; I heard it. (laughs) Maybe. It is joking also and serious. *In our childhood, in the school, a book was there, England's Work in India . One Mr. M. Ghosh, he wrote this book just to flatter the Englishmen. This, that "White man's burden." And it was the impression in those days: just to become like Englishmen, that is civilization. The Parsis in Bombay, they were the first*-class flatterer, imitation, how to become like English lords, barons. This Tata factory was started by such ambition. They wanted to be English baron, lord, industrialist. In Calcutta also. Where our temple is, that is called sāhīb quarter. In our childhood we used to say sāhīb quarter. Sāhīb quarter means European neighborhood. They say our temple is sāhīb mandira in Māyāpur. And in Vṛndāvana, aṇgrejī mandira . The same impression. To become sāhīb , that was great prestigious. Yes. (laughs) They actually had no resources whatsoever, the British. They had no resources whatsoever. *That was the mission of Hitler that, "These people are shopkeepers' nation, fisherman's nation. How they have become so big? This must be finished." Because their business was being hampered by the Britishers. In India we have seen. German and Japan, very cheap and first*-class goods they will supply. The Britishers would not allow. Yes, at that time, anything that was made in England automatically was considered first class. Oh, yes, any rascal thing. They made a good market. And British Empire means to sell their goods. And they, for that purpose, they became rich. Money was drawn from all parts, especially from India. Everything. Later on, gradually we came to understand. In Lucknow, because I was in medical business, so I saw one Japanese salesman was selling one medicine, one or two items, potassiodide. Do you know? No. Potassium iodide. And another, iodine. He was selling at four rupees, eight annas a pound. But we were accustomed to purchase English potassiodide and iodine, thirteen rupees a pound. That Howard's. Very famous, Howard's Chemicals, like that. They were selling. So I doubted that "How so much cheap this Japanese firm can supply?" And they used to advertise that all these Japanese goods are third class. There was big propaganda. Yes, "German goods are second class. Our goods, first class." So I inquired from the salesman, "How is it that you are supplying so cheap?" "They're supplying . . . the price is the real price." "Now, why they charge more?" "They purchase from us and pack and sell." There are many big chemical concerns in Germany. Germans are very good manufacturers, especially of chemicals, iron, machine. Still you find, all this Uher and, what is called, Gundsag? Grundig. *They're all German. All first*-class machine you'll find. This Mercedes motorcar, they're all German. They don't manufacture third-class thing. Everything they manufacture first class. Still, the Germans suffered so much, but when I was in Germany I saw they are very prosperous. (pause) Now we have to get them interested in your books. Hmm? Germans. Yes. I don't think we have any reviews from any big German scholars yet. But if they have ordered for their textbook, that order will be . . . East Germany, yes. Their order itself will be a testimony, if they order in their own form, "Supply this." Max Mueller was German. So long we are in this material world, this competition, animosity . . . even in the higher planetary system, there is no peaceful condition. (pause) You're feeling headache? (Prabhupāda has very bad toothache) No, there is some pain. My teeth are now useless. So it is all rotten now. Sometimes it becomes acute. There is no strength in the teeth. Some of them, fifty percent, have already fallen, therefore I cannot eat. I think that a very nutritious diet can be made just from liquids. Liquids, yes. Milk is the best food. Children, when there is no teeth, milk is the food. In Western country also, I think old men, they take milk and puffed rice. Is it? Yes. Soft foods, anyway. In India, especially in Bengal, there is a preparation, it is softer than the puffed rice— khai , fused rice. That is very good. Light, at the same time soft purgative. That milk mixed with is a very good food for old men. In that newspaper article in the Butler Eagle , that very first article when you just arrived that we saw? They showed that copy in Los Angeles. It mentioned, the reporter there, he quoted you as saying that—you were telling him about milk, how good it was—and he quoted you as saying that milk is the miracle food for babies and old men. Yes. That's a fact. No, it may be there are so many other food, but cent percent of the human society, everyone has some way or other taken milk. So morally, cow is our mother. How these mothers are being killed? That is the question. Where is morality? Where is . . .? And they are drawing last drop of the milk. And there is necessity of milk. "After taking whatever money you have got . . . take, and I shall kill you." What is this? Horrible society. If I take from you whatever you have got in your pocket and then I kill you, what is this society? The only thing that stops them from killing each other is that there are certain laws. Otherwise, I'm sure that the human beings are so barbaric that they would kill each other. Actually, they are making adjustments to the law so that they can do that. *Yes, in India, in Vṛndāvana, they are killing now for a little money. They are so poverty*-stricken. They have got a clique. Because in Vṛndāvana there are many retired men; they get some money from bank or some saving bank in post office. And they have got clique with this post office man and the bank clerk who has taken money. Bon Mahārāja was attacked. He brought some one lakh rupees, one and a half lakh rupees for some . . . he was recognized by the . . . so as soon, at night—he was living in the Institute—attacked, in the presence of police. Police was guarding that others may not come to help. The police were helping the thieves? Yes. I think the magistrate even was complicated. And when it was complained, the magistrate said: "Better not to take it seriously; it will be your . . . I'll give you some guard." That's all. They'll do anything for money. *Now, in the Kali*-yuga, things will degrade so low that if I see I have no money and if you have got some few cents with you, I shall kill you and take it. That day will come. Very dangerous condition is coming forward. Yes, if things go on like this . . . just like we saw in Detroit, the whole city is dangerously situated. Therefore nobody purchased that house. Eighty percent of the people in the city are black. And the white men, they are very much afraid of these black men. They have to be afraid. They've taken over the city. *Without them, the factories cannot go on. That's all. The white men cannot work so hard. How they . . .? No gentleman can do that. This kind of work is meant for the fourth*-class, fifth-class men. Therefore they cannot say anything. They require. And they know that their money will be taken away again by supplying them wine. They'll pay, and next moment, the wine merchant will take away. And the government will get huge profit without doing anything. And excise tax. Excise tax, government hasn't got to invest or do anything—simply take the tax. Every time they put a tax increase, it's always on beer and cigarettes. Always, every time. And motorcars. Because they know the people are so much addicted that even if they squeeze and squeeze and squeeze, they will still get more, and the people will still pay. And addicted people, they, they're after the . . . get money some way or other, beg, borrow or steal. So these black men especially, they are expert. They are not expert in begging, but borrowing and stealing. Is it possible, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will, in the future, turn the tide and gain predominating influence? Change . . . Thing is that if the leaders of the society, they come to their consciousness, that this way the society cannot be peaceful, the way they are now conducting . . . if they have brain . . . just like the other day, the Christian priest, he was speaking of disabled men. You were present? "I challenge you, what do you mean by disabled man? If one man has lost his arm, can you supply it?" Then he stopped. He was finished when you told him it was all imaginary. Yes, actually. What you can do? Other than yourself, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no one in the world has a vision how to save the world. Because I honestly think of it. Maybe others are also honest, but they do not know the right way. How they can be honest? Just like this Communist movement, now they are favoring the labor class and rejecting the capitalist class altogether. They cannot make any adjustment. I've understood that communism is presented by the administrative class when there is a condition of scarcity. When there is opulence, then there is room for personal, individual enterprise, but when there is scarcity, that cannot be encouraged, and the common people have to be subjugated. So capitalism and communism are both simply philosophies how to keep the common man satisfied. So it's simply another means of exploitation. Yes, it is exploitation, and actually they have done it. There is still one class of men living at the expense of another, whether it's Communist or capitalist . . . (end) Conversation -- June 18, 1976, Toronto If we say all these things, they will cut my head. (laughs) Therefore I don't say in the public meeting all these things. But it is actually dog's race. No value. Actually, no value. We cannot give any value to this type of civilization, running like dog with car. I remember in South Africa, though, Prabhupāda, you called them, (laughs) at every meeting, dogs and cats. And afterward they were always applauding. (claps) He did that. (laughing) You did that in South India as well. I think that if . . . No, no, when I come in emotion, I cannot check to speak the truth. But actually it is the fact. I cannot give any credit to these rascals (laughs) who are running at high speed, big, big car. What did we read? There was an article about Mars today. Oh. Nonsense. The scientists, again . . . *They were speculating about . . . they sent this spaceship to Mars, and they were speculating that maybe now the so*-called smog that covers the surface of the planet, it could be fog. It could be made of ice and water particles. So now they . . . so they were speculating like that. And then they said they were going to land the spaceship in a valley at a certain point that is four miles deep and that may . . . it may have been filled with water fifty thousand years ago, and it could have fossils in it from the type of life that existed there, if it existed. Fifty thousand years ago. (laughter) Scientist rascal. How ludicrous. Simply "maybe," "if it was" and "it will be." That's all. Simply "maybe." Yes. They were speculating about, even they didn't know what the atmosphere was, and yet they know . . . yet they were stating that they were going to land this spaceship at a certain point just below the Martian equator in a valley which is just at the mouth of the valley, which is four miles deep. And people are taking, "Oh, it is scientific research." They are such rascals. This cheating has to stop. Hmm? This cheating has to be stopped. And actually, on the same page, what was that, the percentage of scientists who are engaged in warfare? Forty percent of all the scientists in the world, the estimate is, are engaged in making weapons. And it said that since the end of World War II, six trillion dollars, which is six thousand billion dollars, have been spent on armament in the world. In the West. The West, did it say? *In India have no money. They can't get. (laughs) They have no sufficient money to eat even. Still they are spending more than fifty percent, fifty*-four percent. *They estimate there's four hundred thousand so*-called scientists working on armament. Working on? Armament. Weapons. Weapon development. Defense. They call it defense measures. Just see. Why defense? Man to man. That means they are dogs. The dogs defend from another dog. Is it not? As soon as they see another dog, " Yow, yow, yow. " So then where is the defense between man to man? They're worried now that they won't be able to disarm, the article was saying, because, somehow or another, there's going to be a disaster unless there is immediate disarmament. But they don't think it's possible. No. How they can disarm? They have been trained up like dogs to bark and fight. How there can be disarmament? They've been talking about disarmament for who knows how long. Huh? They've been talking about disarmament for years and years together. But they're simply increasing. There's no disarmament. Even within the different religions they are fighting amongst each other. No, no. This religion is also bogus. How the dogs can understand religion? It is simply woax. Simply? Woax, woax. What is called? Woax? Wasp? Like a bee? *No, no. Colossal woax. H*-o-a-x. Find out this. H? *H*-o-a-x. Hoax. Hoax! Joke. Everything's just a bluff. Just a show. Hoax, yes. *Rubber*-stamping. (reading from dictionary) Hoax means "To deceive, take in, sometimes by way of joke, humorous or mischievous deception." *Vibhrama . The Sanskrit is vibhrama*-milita-kriyā. The ārambha, ārambha means endeavor, very gorgeous. The result is sand and rocks. Going to the moon planet, the ārambha was so much expensive. And the result is to bring some sand and rocks. This is hoax. And another: parvatān muṣika bhavaḥ . Hoax . . . (indistinct) . . . like that. There was a great advertisement that the Himalayan mountain is going to deliver a child. So people gathered on, to see, "Oh, such a big mountain. The child must be a very big child." So they went to see there, and they saw one rat is coming from the hole of . . . a rat is coming. They expected another Himalayan mountain, and they saw from the holes, one rat is coming. This is going on. And they are satisfied: "Now the Himalaya has delivered the child." One rat. (laughs) This attempt is like Himalaya begetting a child. If some elephant would have come, it would have saved the . . . not even elephant; one rat. And in English, another is, "Much ado about nothing." Shakespeare. Yes. The result is nothing. What is the meaning of "ado"? Endeavor. Endeavor. Yes. So these things are like that. Not sober. Dhīras tatra na muhyati ( BG 2.13). They are not sober. Adhīra . Therefore they meet with so many accidents. (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa) You also. As soon as one is in the car, he wants to drive at a hundred miles speed. I think it was token punishment, but I'm sorry that you were in the car. (laughs) What is the use? You are not going to serve anyone that we have to go high speed. We can go comfortably. We can make our own pace. Yes. Śyāmasundara also. When he was driving seventy miles. And what you are doing? What is that? This country, Portland. Oregon? From Eugene to Oregon. Oregon, yes. I was in the car with you in the back seat. Oh, you were in the car? They all fell asleep. I was chanting. You were sitting. You didn't even go to sleep that night. (laughs) Even though it was late at night, it was about eleven, twelve, one o'clock at night, you didn't want to stay at that bhogī yogī house. I remember that. And he drove very, very fast back to Portland. That was a very nice engagement. Hmm. That was Śyāmasundara's father's car. So he's a good driver, (laughter) but very dangerous driver. I do not know. Śyāmasundara, his father is a rich man, lawyer, got good estate, and he's the only son. He did not like to stay with father. No one in the West likes to stay with their parents. Two sisters, very beautiful girls. They're unhappy. They're unhappy? Yes. His two sisters. I remember he was preaching to them. At least one of them that came to the temple that time. She came to that program. She first of all came in London. She was piano player. Anyway, they're artists. They're artists. They're not happy. Divorced. His mother is very gentle, I have seen. Father is also respectable man. Family life in the West is disastrous. The father wants to get them back at home, but they don't . . . the father is also taking pills for sleeping. (laughs) Father is also not happy. That's the thing. In the West, even though the opulence is there, the children can see the parents are not happy. The parents are always full of anxiety. So even though the parents want the children to stay at home, the children, they resent that, because they can see that, "You have nothing to offer. It's just a facade." They don't want to become like their parents. They don't see that their parents are a desirable example to follow. Yes. Wine and sex. They see from childhood. One boy, our Rancor, so his father and mother divorced, and he was young child. He was the first child of his mother. And the mother, he said, would daily bring new friend. So he could understand. A new woman. Not new woman. His mother, he was under the care of mother. Oh, mother had new husbands, new boyfriends. Daily, night. And he was shocked. One of my Gauḍīya Maṭha Godbrothers, big, he became the head of this Bhag Bazaar Gauḍīya Maṭha. So his wife was debauched, and she was bringing new paramour, and the child protested. New? Paramour. Paramour. Yes and the boy, he was ten years or twelve years old, he could understand, "Who is this man?" So he protested and said: "I shall tell all these things to my father." And he was killed. The boy was killed? By the mother. She murdered him? Yes. Killed means given poison. And the father, that is, my Godbrother, seeing this, he also took poison. This is the end of Gauḍīya Maṭha scandal. *He also . . . he was also one of the trustees. This Tīrtha Mahārāja was a trustee, and another Godbrother and this man. In the beginning, they were made trustees. In the beginning, Prabhupāda was to undergo surgical operation. So he was a little nervous, that "I may die." So he made a scrap paper, that "In case I die, these three disciples will be trustees of the Gauḍīya Maṭha Institute." That's all. So this Kuñja Bābu kept this. There are many long histories. So one of the so*-called trustees was this Vāsudeva. So he died. His end was like this. His son was killed, isn't it? His wife was a regular prostitute, and she killed her child, and on this shock, he took poison and died. He killed himself. Oh. Naturally he became shocked that, "This is my family life—the wife is prostitute and son is killed. What is the value of my life?" This was his spiritual realization. Just see. (laughs) And he was made the chief, and one of the supporter was Śrīdhara Mahārāja. Vāsudeva Śrīdhara? No, no. He was made chief. Guru Mahārāja did not make him chief. But after his passing away, some of our Godbrothers voted him chief. Am I mis . . .? You had told me once—I'm not certain; maybe I made a mistake—you said that Vāsudeva, it was known fact that he was homosex? Yes. Vāsudeva. He was homosex and sex, everything. Here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in this city . . . I haven't been back in so many years to America. Things have become more degraded. I'm watching women and women walking arm around each other. And I asked: "What is this?" "Oh," he says: "They are lesbians." Women together, girlfriends. They don't mix with men. This is now very much prevalent in America. No higher consciousness. I had one disciple, she was for that purpose. Just see. So one professor is already here. Let him come. This is Shivaram. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Should I turn this light on? Yes. You also sit down. Note down. I want to get the newspapers that you wanted. (break) So what can I do? (laughs) I'll speak to Rāmeśvara and see if we can do something to publish it. (break) I began with these men are running on car and the dog is running on leg, where is the difference? His running by car is his advancement of civilization. They are taking running by car, never mind the passenger is a dog. (laughter) But the passenger is running on car, a dog, therefore he's a dog. They use these cars for running after women. That is the same thing. Just like dog runs after. What will the program be? Won't Prabhupāda speak down there also? What is speaking? I'll just see if everything is ready. (break) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- June 18, 1976, Toronto If we say all these things, they will cut my head. (laughs) Therefore I don't say in the public meeting all these things. But it is actually dog's race. No value. Actually, no value. We cannot give any value to this type of civilization, running like dog with car. I remember in South Africa, though, Prabhupāda, you called them, (laughs) at every meeting, dogs and cats. And afterward they were always applauding. (claps) He did that. (laughing) You did that in South India as well. I think that if . . . No, no, when I come in emotion, I cannot check to speak the truth. But actually it is the fact. I cannot give any credit to these rascals (laughs) who are running at high speed, big, big car. What did we read? There was an article about Mars today. Oh. Nonsense. The scientists, again . . . *They were speculating about . . . they sent this spaceship to Mars, and they were speculating that maybe now the so*-called smog that covers the surface of the planet, it could be fog. It could be made of ice and water particles. So now they . . . so they were speculating like that. And then they said they were going to land the spaceship in a valley at a certain point that is four miles deep and that may . . . it may have been filled with water fifty thousand years ago, and it could have fossils in it from the type of life that existed there, if it existed. Fifty thousand years ago. (laughter) Scientist rascal. How ludicrous. Simply "maybe," "if it was" and "it will be." That's all. Simply "maybe." Yes. They were speculating about, even they didn't know what the atmosphere was, and yet they know . . . yet they were stating that they were going to land this spaceship at a certain point just below the Martian equator in a valley which is just at the mouth of the valley, which is four miles deep. And people are taking, "Oh, it is scientific research." They are such rascals. This cheating has to stop. Hmm? This cheating has to be stopped. And actually, on the same page, what was that, the percentage of scientists who are engaged in warfare? Forty percent of all the scientists in the world, the estimate is, are engaged in making weapons. And it said that since the end of World War II, six trillion dollars, which is six thousand billion dollars, have been spent on armament in the world. In the West. The West, did it say? *In India have no money. They can't get. (laughs) They have no sufficient money to eat even. Still they are spending more than fifty percent, fifty*-four percent. *They estimate there's four hundred thousand so*-called scientists working on armament. Working on? Armament. Weapons. Weapon development. Defense. They call it defense measures. Just see. Why defense? Man to man. That means they are dogs. The dogs defend from another dog. Is it not? As soon as they see another dog, " Yow, yow, yow. " So then where is the defense between man to man? They're worried now that they won't be able to disarm, the article was saying, because, somehow or another, there's going to be a disaster unless there is immediate disarmament. But they don't think it's possible. No. How they can disarm? They have been trained up like dogs to bark and fight. How there can be disarmament? They've been talking about disarmament for who knows how long. Huh? They've been talking about disarmament for years and years together. But they're simply increasing. There's no disarmament. Even within the different religions they are fighting amongst each other. No, no. This religion is also bogus. How the dogs can understand religion? It is simply woax. Simply? Woax, woax. What is called? Woax? Wasp? Like a bee? *No, no. Colossal woax. H*-o-a-x. Find out this. H? *H*-o-a-x. Hoax. Hoax! Joke. Everything's just a bluff. Just a show. Hoax, yes. *Rubber*-stamping. (reading from dictionary) Hoax means "To deceive, take in, sometimes by way of joke, humorous or mischievous deception." *Vibhrama . The Sanskrit is vibhrama*-milita-kriyā. The ārambha, ārambha means endeavor, very gorgeous. The result is sand and rocks. Going to the moon planet, the ārambha was so much expensive. And the result is to bring some sand and rocks. This is hoax. And another: parvatān muṣika bhavaḥ . Hoax . . . (indistinct) . . . like that. There was a great advertisement that the Himalayan mountain is going to deliver a child. So people gathered on, to see, "Oh, such a big mountain. The child must be a very big child." So they went to see there, and they saw one rat is coming from the hole of . . . a rat is coming. They expected another Himalayan mountain, and they saw from the holes, one rat is coming. This is going on. And they are satisfied: "Now the Himalaya has delivered the child." One rat. (laughs) This attempt is like Himalaya begetting a child. If some elephant would have come, it would have saved the . . . not even elephant; one rat. And in English, another is, "Much ado about nothing." Shakespeare. Yes. The result is nothing. What is the meaning of "ado"? Endeavor. Endeavor. Yes. So these things are like that. Not sober. Dhīras tatra na muhyati ( BG 2.13). They are not sober. Adhīra . Therefore they meet with so many accidents. (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa) You also. As soon as one is in the car, he wants to drive at a hundred miles speed. I think it was token punishment, but I'm sorry that you were in the car. (laughs) What is the use? You are not going to serve anyone that we have to go high speed. We can go comfortably. We can make our own pace. Yes. Śyāmasundara also. When he was driving seventy miles. And what you are doing? What is that? This country, Portland. Oregon? From Eugene to Oregon. Oregon, yes. I was in the car with you in the back seat. Oh, you were in the car? They all fell asleep. I was chanting. You were sitting. You didn't even go to sleep that night. (laughs) Even though it was late at night, it was about eleven, twelve, one o'clock at night, you didn't want to stay at that bhogī yogī house. I remember that. And he drove very, very fast back to Portland. That was a very nice engagement. Hmm. That was Śyāmasundara's father's car. So he's a good driver, (laughter) but very dangerous driver. I do not know. Śyāmasundara, his father is a rich man, lawyer, got good estate, and he's the only son. He did not like to stay with father. No one in the West likes to stay with their parents. Two sisters, very beautiful girls. They're unhappy. They're unhappy? Yes. His two sisters. I remember he was preaching to them. At least one of them that came to the temple that time. She came to that program. She first of all came in London. She was piano player. Anyway, they're artists. They're artists. They're not happy. Divorced. His mother is very gentle, I have seen. Father is also respectable man. Family life in the West is disastrous. The father wants to get them back at home, but they don't . . . the father is also taking pills for sleeping. (laughs) Father is also not happy. That's the thing. In the West, even though the opulence is there, the children can see the parents are not happy. The parents are always full of anxiety. So even though the parents want the children to stay at home, the children, they resent that, because they can see that, "You have nothing to offer. It's just a facade." They don't want to become like their parents. They don't see that their parents are a desirable example to follow. Yes. Wine and sex. They see from childhood. One boy, our Rancor, so his father and mother divorced, and he was young child. He was the first child of his mother. And the mother, he said, would daily bring new friend. So he could understand. A new woman. Not new woman. His mother, he was under the care of mother. Oh, mother had new husbands, new boyfriends. Daily, night. And he was shocked. One of my Gauḍīya Maṭha Godbrothers, big, he became the head of this Bhag Bazaar Gauḍīya Maṭha. So his wife was debauched, and she was bringing new paramour, and the child protested. New? Paramour. Paramour. Yes and the boy, he was ten years or twelve years old, he could understand, "Who is this man?" So he protested and said: "I shall tell all these things to my father." And he was killed. The boy was killed? By the mother. She murdered him? Yes. Killed means given poison. And the father, that is, my Godbrother, seeing this, he also took poison. This is the end of Gauḍīya Maṭha scandal. *He also . . . he was also one of the trustees. This Tīrtha Mahārāja was a trustee, and another Godbrother and this man. In the beginning, they were made trustees. In the beginning, Prabhupāda was to undergo surgical operation. So he was a little nervous, that "I may die." So he made a scrap paper, that "In case I die, these three disciples will be trustees of the Gauḍīya Maṭha Institute." That's all. So this Kuñja Bābu kept this. There are many long histories. So one of the so*-called trustees was this Vāsudeva. So he died. His end was like this. His son was killed, isn't it? His wife was a regular prostitute, and she killed her child, and on this shock, he took poison and died. He killed himself. Oh. Naturally he became shocked that, "This is my family life—the wife is prostitute and son is killed. What is the value of my life?" This was his spiritual realization. Just see. (laughs) And he was made the chief, and one of the supporter was Śrīdhara Mahārāja. Vāsudeva Śrīdhara? No, no. He was made chief. Guru Mahārāja did not make him chief. But after his passing away, some of our Godbrothers voted him chief. Am I mis . . .? You had told me once—I'm not certain; maybe I made a mistake—you said that Vāsudeva, it was known fact that he was homosex? Yes. Vāsudeva. He was homosex and sex, everything. Here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in this city . . . I haven't been back in so many years to America. Things have become more degraded. I'm watching women and women walking arm around each other. And I asked: "What is this?" "Oh," he says: "They are lesbians." Women together, girlfriends. They don't mix with men. This is now very much prevalent in America. No higher consciousness. I had one disciple, she was for that purpose. Just see. So one professor is already here. Let him come. This is Shivaram. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Should I turn this light on? Yes. You also sit down. Note down. I want to get the newspapers that you wanted. (break) So what can I do? (laughs) I'll speak to Rāmeśvara and see if we can do something to publish it. (break) I began with these men are running on car and the dog is running on leg, where is the difference? His running by car is his advancement of civilization. They are taking running by car, never mind the passenger is a dog. (laughter) But the passenger is running on car, a dog, therefore he's a dog. They use these cars for running after women. That is the same thing. Just like dog runs after. What will the program be? Won't Prabhupāda speak down there also? What is speaking? I'll just see if everything is ready. (break) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation Home Engagement -- June 19, 1976, Toronto Who will talk? You can speak. So last year, at this time, a year ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda came to Śubhavilāsa's house as part of his visit to Toronto. At that time Toronto ISKCON had only a small temple which they'd had for years, on Gerrard Street. All the devotees were very enthusiastic, but their place was not such a nice facility. So Śrīla Prabhupāda visited and came here, and many members of the Indian community and other members of the Toronto community came, and Śrīla Prabhupāda spoke here. At the end of his talk, one man asked Śrīla Prabhupāda that, "We are very glad that you have come. Now you please come back again. When will you return again?" Śrīla Prabhupāda said: "I will return when you get a big temple for this center." He had seen different temples, including this big church, so Śrīla Prabhupāda's invitation to them was that they should make collection to purchase this temple. So Śubhavilāsa and Viśvakarma and all the devotees actually worked so hard, and by Kṛṣṇa's grace they were able to purchase this temple. So we can see that it is the desire of the pure devotee. Whatever Kṛṣṇa wants, He does not have to work at all. His desires are immediately fulfilled simply by His desiring. Everything is fulfilled. By Kṛṣṇa's finger signal the whole material creation is created, brought about, and it's maintained by His separate energies. And everything is annihilated by Kṛṣṇa's will and created again. So . . . and Kṛṣṇa, He is fulfilling all His infinite desires in the spiritual world also. So as Kṛṣṇa's desires are immediately fulfilled, the pure devotee's desires are also fulfilled. That's because he is one with the Lord. His interests are the same are Kṛṣṇa's. This is the oneness, that the pure devotee has no desire but to see that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And so by Śrīla Prabhupāda's desiring this to come about, praying to Kṛṣṇa, therefore the devotees also praying and endeavoring have brought about that now Toronto is situated in such a nice temple, and just since opening that temple now so many new devotees have come and joined. So it's now very firmly situated in this big North American city to go on spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *So we should be always so grateful to Śrīla Prabhupāda, not only for coming and visiting us in our temples, whereby we can actually see in this instance how by his visit this came about, that a year later now such a big, big temple is there . . . that anyone can plainly see. It is phenomenal. It can be seen. But also we should be grateful that by his instructions . . . because the physical presence is not always appreciable. Sometimes he is here and some, then he is not here. But always Śrīla Prabhupāda is with us by our following his instructions. We simply have to be obedient to these instructions. As Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying last night in the initiation lecture, that human life is meant to follow these instructions of tapo*-divyam ( SB 5.5.1), going to the difficulty of giving up sinful habits, meat-eating, illicit sex, intoxication, gambling, and engaging in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we do these things very sincerely, then we shall always have Śrīla Prabhupāda guiding us. Kṛṣṇa is in the heart, and when Kṛṣṇa in the heart sees that we are trying to follow the instructions of the pure devotee, who's also a manifestation of Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa within is the Supersoul. Kṛṣṇa manifested before us is the spiritual master. So the Lord within the heart will see that we are trying to follow the instructions of the spiritual master and will enlighten us how to always stay strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, how to always feel the direct association and direction of the spiritual master by obedience to his instructions. So all these things we'll realize more and more if we simply faithfully stick to Prabhupāda's instruction, and his main instruction is that we simply all be happy and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You can . . . *We can appreciate the temples that Śrīla Prabhupāda has established all over the world when we compare the material life, as going on today, with the life we live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Presently in this world, the Kali*-yuga is so much manifest. We can see that year by year things are becoming more and more degraded, not in arithmetic proportion but even in geometric proportions. So rapidly everywhere society is decaying and people are becoming more and more just like animals, exactly like animals—simply interested in eating, simply interested in sex life, simply interested in trying somehow or another to find some object to gratify the senses. But in the temple we can practically experience a different quality of life altogether. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is establishing the internal potency of the Lord within this material world in the form of his temples. Kṛṣṇa says, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13), that persons who are always glorifying Kṛṣṇa, they live in the internal potency of the Lord. And practically in our temples, glorification of Kṛṣṇa, by the order of our spiritual master, is going on. We can understand practically that to live in the temple is to live in the internal potency of the Lord—is very rare opportunity. We can see practically that there are so many billions and billions of people in the world suffering without any opportunity even of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *So just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even at this advanced age, in spite of so many difficulties . . . just like I'm somehow or another Śrīla Prabhupāda's secretary, and I'm always trying to arrange for his physical comforts. But he's always saying: "To preach means to accept discomfort," that for an older person to travel on airplanes and to always move about and to go here and there for the service of the Lord is naturally more difficult than for a very young person. But Prabhupāda is accepting this uncomfortable situation simply to establish Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout the world, at least to give people the opportunity that, "Choose, if you like, between the internal potency and the external potency." The external potency means that you're forced. We have no choice. We're forced to undergo repetition of birth and death. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Nobody likes to grow old, but this youthful age, soon it will become old age. And nobody likes to die. So present-day civilization is blindly going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās: (SB 7.5.31) the blind leading the blind. People are thinking that, "My parents did it. Their parents did it. Generations have done it. So also we engage blindly in materialistic way of life and everything will be okay." But the result is that everyone is simply suffering, and after this lifetime they also have to suffer the consequences of this present life's activities blindly, not knowing that they're responsible for their activities. *So we have a choice now whether to follow a representative of God, Kṛṣṇa, who can bring us to the internal potency of the Lord. This internal potency is not dry. It is the origin of bliss, sac*-cid-ānanda-vigraha (BS 5.1). It is not impersonal, void, lifeless, without any happiness. It is what everyone is actually looking for, simply pervertedly within this material world. So this opportunity is here. Before Prabhupāda came to the Western countries, actually there was no hope. There was no hope at all. There was no such knowledge, there was no such opportunity to choose between material life and something else. There was no reality other than this body, and for everyone it was simply a very hopeless, distressful situation. But Prabhupāda personally, even at advanced age, he's coming simply to give this opportunity to the Westerners and to everyone throughout the world, that besides this material life, there is another, eternal life, and if you utilize your independence very carefully to transfer your attachment to this internal potency of devotional service and service to the Vaiṣṇavas and to Kṛṣṇa, then you can become free forever from the encumbrance of repeated birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the great fortune that has come upon us in the form of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, in the form of association with the pure devotee, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and in the form of chanting the holy name. In so many ways we are being benedicted, and if we can simply remain fixed in the pure knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and we don't become illusioned by this material energy, thinking just like the animal that there's some happiness there . . . the animal is running after the mirage, but there's no water there. Similarly the foolish human beings, as Prabhupāda aptly mentioned the other day to these professors who came to visit him, the dog is running with four legs, here and there, very, very busy, and the human being also he's running, but he's running in an automobile with four wheels. But he's thinking that his running is superior to the dog's running. Why? He's very busy running here and there for the same activities, and the dog is running with four legs. The activities are the same. So without culture the running in the car and the running of the dog is the same. So this Kṛṣṇa culture is now being spread all throughout the world. It's giving people to see how actually human life should be lived. And the temple is a place where practically we can set an ideal example of human life for the whole of human society. Therefore we're greatly indebted to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Jagadīśa, you can. *In the world, in the material world, there are two kinds of persons: devotees and the demons. Devotees are those who have understood the existence of the Supreme Lord and are engaged somehow or other in His service, and the demons are those who reject the service of the Lord. In the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad*-gītā this is described: catur-vidhā bhajante mām (BG 7.16). There are four types of people who surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So those who are in distress, those who are in search of money, those who are inquisitive and those who are searching after the Absolute Truth, so these four kinds of persons, when given the opportunity, will take shelter of the Supreme Lord. And the other four kinds of persons are called, are described in Bhagavad-gītā . . . Duṣkṛtina . Duṣkṛtina. *Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. What's the first? Those who are mūḍha , foolish, grossly foolish; those who are narādhama , those who are lowest of mankind; *those who are māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā , those whose knowledge is stolen by illusion; *those, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ , those who are of the atheistic nature of demons. These four kinds of persons do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. In the purport in Bhagavad*-gītā Śrīla Prabhupāda has explained that practically 99.9% of the human population fits in these categories, will not surrender unto the Supreme Lord. Therefore the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is formed to give opportunity to those who choose to surrender to the Lord to associate with one another, to cooperate together in serving the mission of the Lord. *The material world is created for a specific purpose by the Supreme Lord. That purpose is to give a chance to the forgetful living beings who have tried to exercise independence from Kṛṣṇa to once again understand their position. They're put into various conditions of material existence in order to learn that they are not the enjoyers and controllers. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer. Param īśvara. He's the supreme controller. Everything is meant for His satisfaction. In Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa is described, describes Himself, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8) that, "All material and spiritual worlds are created by Me. Everything is emanating from Me." So created by Kṛṣṇa for His pleasure, just as a father or a man takes a wife and has children and gets a house, and he expands himself in this way for enjoyment. He tries to enjoy by expanding his influence in the material world. So this is because he's part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and he has the same tendency as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer, and He has expanded Himself in multi-energies to enjoy Himself, and the conditioned souls are also part of that multifarious energy. They are called marginal, jīva-śakti , and that means they can go one way or the other. They can choose to use their independence to please Kṛṣṇa or they can choose to use their independence otherwise. That otherwise means that they must come to the material world. That is Kṛṣṇa's purpose in creating the material world—to give a chance to these foolish living entities to revive their eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. *So within human society . . . this is also stated in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā , manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3): "Out of many thousands of men, one may endeavor for perfection. And of many such perfected men, hardly one knows Me in truth." So the material world is a very dangerous place. The living beings within the material world are kṣatram . They do not know the purpose of life. They are simply interested in their own advancement, somehow or other. So they engage in all kinds of destructive activities which cause harm to themselves and to others. So this is the condition of the material world. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda has stated that this is no place for a gentleman. In the material world everyone is, just as we are observing . . . I was visiting the Kṛṣṇa consciousness farm in British Columbia, and on the road we were passing large herds of beef cows. We were discussing that the farmer thinks of these cows not as spirit souls but as commodities. He simply puts them in a field to eat, and when they get big enough, kills them and takes the money for his enjoyment. He doesn't see that these are living entities, spirit souls. So this activity of the human beings, killing the cows, helpless cows by the thousands daily, is causing the . . . or is an indication that there is no merciful quality in the human beings. They are simply interested in their own aggrandizement and welfare. If they don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the only alternative. Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes and canvasses, and He tells the conditioned souls, "You must surrender to Me." And if one chooses not to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that means that he himself wants to become Kṛṣṇa—without any qualification. The spirit soul is infinitesimal spark of Kṛṣṇa. And that spark, when not in touch with Kṛṣṇa, the fire, becomes like the sparks of the fire not in contact with the fire: extinguished. So there is no good qualities for the living beings who are outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So the four types of men who surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they're doing so with some selfish interest. All of the conditioned souls are acting for their own selfish interest. They do not know otherwise. But somehow or other, if one of the conditioned souls will surrender to Kṛṣṇa by the grace of a pure devotee, then that immediately puts him into a situation of becoming purified. The greatest purification is to come in touch with a pure devotee of the Lord. There are many, many ritualistic activities prescribed in the Vedic literatures for gradual purification. But, as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī points out in his Upadeśāmṛta , what is the good of undergoing so much atonement and pious activity if the heart remains contaminated and the living entity remains sinful, ready to . . . just acting for his own benefit? Therefore the greatest opportunity for the conditioned soul is when he gets the chance to associate with a pure devotee of the Lord. *The pure devotee of the Lord instructs the conditioned soul to engage in activities just to please Kṛṣṇa, as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī explains. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11), without any separate interest, no mixture of jñāna or karma , no desire for sense gratification or acquisition of knowledge, just to engage in activities for the pleasure of the Supreme. This is the perfection. Otherwise, without coming in touch with a pure devotee of the Lord no one could understand this. And especially in this age of Kali, when the human society is so degraded that if it weren't for some laws prohibiting, and even despite those laws, the human beings are engaged in cut-throat activities, killing one another. Just like this abortion. Now they've passed some law which allows killing. So now it is going on, wholesale slaughtering, by mothers of their own children. This is the condition of human society. *So the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is specifically formed by Śrīla Prabhupāda to help those of us who are lost and entangled in this material condition to associate with one another under his guidance and achieve, by this process recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, chanting the holy name, we can achieve rapid purification, and in this one lifetime, Śrīla Prabhupāda has promised that we can go back to home, back to Godhead. So we should try to cooperate together. There is no other purpose. Once one comes in touch with the pure devotee and understands his message, and there's no other purpose for living in this material world than to serve the mission of the Lord. And that mission of the Lord, as already explained, is to reclaim the conditioned souls who have fallen into the material world and are lost, helplessly entrapped. So we should try and cooperate together. Learn Śrīla Prabhupāda's instructions very perfectly and try to carry them out, following the four regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds and working together to spread the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world so that its influence can affect all the living beings who are living on the face of the earth. Actually in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī has stated that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will spread all over the universe. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is undoubtedly empowered by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He's doing such wonderful service, spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over this globe, and we should pray that we can help in some small way. Thank you very much. Jaya . *So I have heard that there are about fifty thousand Indians in Toronto. So why they are not coming? They want to become bara*-sāhīb only? Yes, they are here to make the money, that's all they are doing. *(laughs) They have no other purpose? So this is not good. What is their objection? They don't want their own culture? This is Indian culture. They should be proud that Indian culture is being accepted by the foreigners. And they are living, they are becoming bara*-sāhīb ? What is this? Now it is your duty to deliver these bara-sāhībs , that they are not taking interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hmm? No, so is there any other outsider Indian present? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come here. But you have already joined. (laughter) He's . . . (indistinct) . . . from Montreal. Your trick. Your trademark is there. ( tilak ) *Nama oṁ viṣṇu*-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhūtale . . . There's Gururaj. They are also chanting sixteen rounds a day now, and he's staying at the temple. So he has already joined. I mean those who have not joined. I think this gentleman? I saw him in the morning. So, Kya karan hai je hamara bhartiya log nahi aate hain. (What is the reason that our Indians are not coming?) This is a very good question. Apne jo pucha . . . kyun nahi aate hain? (The question you have asked . . . why don't they come?) Ye to thik nahi hai kyunki . . . (This is not proper because . . .) this is the sign of degradation. So Indians have become so degraded, shall I take it like that? No, it's not that, but there must be some other reason why they're not coming. *What is other reason? There cannot be any reason. Here is temple of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa, and the Bhagavad-gītā is being preached, Bhāgavata is being preached. Why they do not take interest? I've been coming to temple for six years now here in Toronto. Well, you are coming, all right. But I have heard that there are fifty thousand Indians. So why they do not come? Maybe it's catching up now, more. Is there any special reason, they can discuss with me, if one is interested. Mujhe lagta hai, jaise ho sakta hai ki, jaisa hamara tarika hai ki sadkon pe jake . . ., log isse thoda ghabra jate hain. Kyunki wo sochte hain hamare upare discrimination aayegi. (I feel, it might be possible that, the system which we have of going out on the streets, people might get little nervous. They think that they might receive discrimination upon themselves.) The society here to accept this kind of thing, and people maybe don't want to align themselves with this kind of thing so that they are not ridiculed by others. This could be one of the reasons. Because, you know . . . Ridicule? The method may be, they may think, maybe that it is too strong for people here to accept. No, strong, disease bhi to strong hai na. Jaisa disease vaisa davai hona chahiye. Ye jo bhagavan ko bhool jana aur sharab pina maas khana ye disease to he bhari gambhir hai.. (The disease is also strong is it not? According to the disease, the right medicine must be used. This forgetfulness of God and taking intoxicants, eating meat - this disease is very serious.) Jaya , Hare Kṛṣṇa. Many of them think we're fanatical, from Western countries. Many? jaya Kya karan hai bhartiya log . . . (What is the reason the Indians . . .) I don't speak Hindi. I'm from South America, British Guinea. So what is the reason the Indians are not coming in large numbers? They are coming, some. I think they are too much in māyā . (laughter) They want to be Kṛṣṇa. Everybody wants to be Kṛṣṇa themselves. Rascal. (laughter) Everyone wants to become a rascal. Don't be that. Ve to inse bhi aage badh gaye hain, Americans se, unse bhi jyada khana pina shuru kar diye hain. (They have even gone ahead than the Americans, they have started to eat meat and consume alcohol more than these Americans.) Ye sab mayavadi ye log ko sikha diya sab jahanoom me jane ke liye. (All these Mayavadis have taught them to go to hell.) This is not good. Everyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa. Or they're seeking for Kṛṣṇa in the material world. Wo pahad utha sakta hai kya Krishna jaisa? (Can he lift the mountain like Kṛṣṇa?) As Kṛṣṇa lifted the Govardhana Hill at seven years old, so can he do that? Then how he'll become Kṛṣṇa? Simply by imagination. Kuch kar ke to dikhao. Ye sab badmaashi kharab kar diya hai Hindu society ko. (Show me by doing something. All this bullying has ruined the Hindu society. There are too many sections of religion, Hindu religion. *There cannot be any section. There are two section, demons and the demigods. That is the statement in the śāstra . Dvau bhūta*-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca (BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva and āsura . Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ . So if they want to remain demons, that is their choice. But that will not help them. Most fortunate men try to follow Kṛṣṇa. The unfortunate try to follow . . . So anyway, now it is Śubhavilāsa Prabhu's duty to bring these imitation Kṛṣṇas. Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. : Many, many good bhaktas are being spoiled by impersonalists nowadays . . . *Yes. You are personalist or impersonalist? He is personalist. (laughter) Hari*-nāma karo mala hai to japo. (Do harinam , if you have beads then chant.) So, another kīrtana ? (end) Conversation Home Engagement -- June 19, 1976, Toronto Who will talk? You can speak. So last year, at this time, a year ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda came to Śubhavilāsa's house as part of his visit to Toronto. At that time Toronto ISKCON had only a small temple which they'd had for years, on Gerrard Street. All the devotees were very enthusiastic, but their place was not such a nice facility. So Śrīla Prabhupāda visited and came here, and many members of the Indian community and other members of the Toronto community came, and Śrīla Prabhupāda spoke here. At the end of his talk, one man asked Śrīla Prabhupāda that, "We are very glad that you have come. Now you please come back again. When will you return again?" Śrīla Prabhupāda said: "I will return when you get a big temple for this center." He had seen different temples, including this big church, so Śrīla Prabhupāda's invitation to them was that they should make collection to purchase this temple. So Śubhavilāsa and Viśvakarma and all the devotees actually worked so hard, and by Kṛṣṇa's grace they were able to purchase this temple. So we can see that it is the desire of the pure devotee. Whatever Kṛṣṇa wants, He does not have to work at all. His desires are immediately fulfilled simply by His desiring. Everything is fulfilled. By Kṛṣṇa's finger signal the whole material creation is created, brought about, and it's maintained by His separate energies. And everything is annihilated by Kṛṣṇa's will and created again. So . . . and Kṛṣṇa, He is fulfilling all His infinite desires in the spiritual world also. So as Kṛṣṇa's desires are immediately fulfilled, the pure devotee's desires are also fulfilled. That's because he is one with the Lord. His interests are the same are Kṛṣṇa's. This is the oneness, that the pure devotee has no desire but to see that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And so by Śrīla Prabhupāda's desiring this to come about, praying to Kṛṣṇa, therefore the devotees also praying and endeavoring have brought about that now Toronto is situated in such a nice temple, and just since opening that temple now so many new devotees have come and joined. So it's now very firmly situated in this big North American city to go on spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *So we should be always so grateful to Śrīla Prabhupāda, not only for coming and visiting us in our temples, whereby we can actually see in this instance how by his visit this came about, that a year later now such a big, big temple is there . . . that anyone can plainly see. It is phenomenal. It can be seen. But also we should be grateful that by his instructions . . . because the physical presence is not always appreciable. Sometimes he is here and some, then he is not here. But always Śrīla Prabhupāda is with us by our following his instructions. We simply have to be obedient to these instructions. As Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying last night in the initiation lecture, that human life is meant to follow these instructions of tapo*-divyam ( SB 5.5.1), going to the difficulty of giving up sinful habits, meat-eating, illicit sex, intoxication, gambling, and engaging in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we do these things very sincerely, then we shall always have Śrīla Prabhupāda guiding us. Kṛṣṇa is in the heart, and when Kṛṣṇa in the heart sees that we are trying to follow the instructions of the pure devotee, who's also a manifestation of Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa within is the Supersoul. Kṛṣṇa manifested before us is the spiritual master. So the Lord within the heart will see that we are trying to follow the instructions of the spiritual master and will enlighten us how to always stay strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, how to always feel the direct association and direction of the spiritual master by obedience to his instructions. So all these things we'll realize more and more if we simply faithfully stick to Prabhupāda's instruction, and his main instruction is that we simply all be happy and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You can . . . *We can appreciate the temples that Śrīla Prabhupāda has established all over the world when we compare the material life, as going on today, with the life we live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Presently in this world, the Kali*-yuga is so much manifest. We can see that year by year things are becoming more and more degraded, not in arithmetic proportion but even in geometric proportions. So rapidly everywhere society is decaying and people are becoming more and more just like animals, exactly like animals—simply interested in eating, simply interested in sex life, simply interested in trying somehow or another to find some object to gratify the senses. But in the temple we can practically experience a different quality of life altogether. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is establishing the internal potency of the Lord within this material world in the form of his temples. Kṛṣṇa says, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13), that persons who are always glorifying Kṛṣṇa, they live in the internal potency of the Lord. And practically in our temples, glorification of Kṛṣṇa, by the order of our spiritual master, is going on. We can understand practically that to live in the temple is to live in the internal potency of the Lord—is very rare opportunity. We can see practically that there are so many billions and billions of people in the world suffering without any opportunity even of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *So just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even at this advanced age, in spite of so many difficulties . . . just like I'm somehow or another Śrīla Prabhupāda's secretary, and I'm always trying to arrange for his physical comforts. But he's always saying: "To preach means to accept discomfort," that for an older person to travel on airplanes and to always move about and to go here and there for the service of the Lord is naturally more difficult than for a very young person. But Prabhupāda is accepting this uncomfortable situation simply to establish Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout the world, at least to give people the opportunity that, "Choose, if you like, between the internal potency and the external potency." The external potency means that you're forced. We have no choice. We're forced to undergo repetition of birth and death. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Nobody likes to grow old, but this youthful age, soon it will become old age. And nobody likes to die. So present-day civilization is blindly going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās: (SB 7.5.31) the blind leading the blind. People are thinking that, "My parents did it. Their parents did it. Generations have done it. So also we engage blindly in materialistic way of life and everything will be okay." But the result is that everyone is simply suffering, and after this lifetime they also have to suffer the consequences of this present life's activities blindly, not knowing that they're responsible for their activities. *So we have a choice now whether to follow a representative of God, Kṛṣṇa, who can bring us to the internal potency of the Lord. This internal potency is not dry. It is the origin of bliss, sac*-cid-ānanda-vigraha (BS 5.1). It is not impersonal, void, lifeless, without any happiness. It is what everyone is actually looking for, simply pervertedly within this material world. So this opportunity is here. Before Prabhupāda came to the Western countries, actually there was no hope. There was no hope at all. There was no such knowledge, there was no such opportunity to choose between material life and something else. There was no reality other than this body, and for everyone it was simply a very hopeless, distressful situation. But Prabhupāda personally, even at advanced age, he's coming simply to give this opportunity to the Westerners and to everyone throughout the world, that besides this material life, there is another, eternal life, and if you utilize your independence very carefully to transfer your attachment to this internal potency of devotional service and service to the Vaiṣṇavas and to Kṛṣṇa, then you can become free forever from the encumbrance of repeated birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the great fortune that has come upon us in the form of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, in the form of association with the pure devotee, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and in the form of chanting the holy name. In so many ways we are being benedicted, and if we can simply remain fixed in the pure knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and we don't become illusioned by this material energy, thinking just like the animal that there's some happiness there . . . the animal is running after the mirage, but there's no water there. Similarly the foolish human beings, as Prabhupāda aptly mentioned the other day to these professors who came to visit him, the dog is running with four legs, here and there, very, very busy, and the human being also he's running, but he's running in an automobile with four wheels. But he's thinking that his running is superior to the dog's running. Why? He's very busy running here and there for the same activities, and the dog is running with four legs. The activities are the same. So without culture the running in the car and the running of the dog is the same. So this Kṛṣṇa culture is now being spread all throughout the world. It's giving people to see how actually human life should be lived. And the temple is a place where practically we can set an ideal example of human life for the whole of human society. Therefore we're greatly indebted to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Jagadīśa, you can. *In the world, in the material world, there are two kinds of persons: devotees and the demons. Devotees are those who have understood the existence of the Supreme Lord and are engaged somehow or other in His service, and the demons are those who reject the service of the Lord. In the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad*-gītā this is described: catur-vidhā bhajante mām (BG 7.16). There are four types of people who surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So those who are in distress, those who are in search of money, those who are inquisitive and those who are searching after the Absolute Truth, so these four kinds of persons, when given the opportunity, will take shelter of the Supreme Lord. And the other four kinds of persons are called, are described in Bhagavad-gītā . . . Duṣkṛtina . Duṣkṛtina. *Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. What's the first? Those who are mūḍha , foolish, grossly foolish; those who are narādhama , those who are lowest of mankind; *those who are māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā , those whose knowledge is stolen by illusion; *those, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ , those who are of the atheistic nature of demons. These four kinds of persons do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. In the purport in Bhagavad*-gītā Śrīla Prabhupāda has explained that practically 99.9% of the human population fits in these categories, will not surrender unto the Supreme Lord. Therefore the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is formed to give opportunity to those who choose to surrender to the Lord to associate with one another, to cooperate together in serving the mission of the Lord. *The material world is created for a specific purpose by the Supreme Lord. That purpose is to give a chance to the forgetful living beings who have tried to exercise independence from Kṛṣṇa to once again understand their position. They're put into various conditions of material existence in order to learn that they are not the enjoyers and controllers. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer. Param īśvara. He's the supreme controller. Everything is meant for His satisfaction. In Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa is described, describes Himself, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8) that, "All material and spiritual worlds are created by Me. Everything is emanating from Me." So created by Kṛṣṇa for His pleasure, just as a father or a man takes a wife and has children and gets a house, and he expands himself in this way for enjoyment. He tries to enjoy by expanding his influence in the material world. So this is because he's part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and he has the same tendency as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer, and He has expanded Himself in multi-energies to enjoy Himself, and the conditioned souls are also part of that multifarious energy. They are called marginal, jīva-śakti , and that means they can go one way or the other. They can choose to use their independence to please Kṛṣṇa or they can choose to use their independence otherwise. That otherwise means that they must come to the material world. That is Kṛṣṇa's purpose in creating the material world—to give a chance to these foolish living entities to revive their eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. *So within human society . . . this is also stated in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā , manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3): "Out of many thousands of men, one may endeavor for perfection. And of many such perfected men, hardly one knows Me in truth." So the material world is a very dangerous place. The living beings within the material world are kṣatram . They do not know the purpose of life. They are simply interested in their own advancement, somehow or other. So they engage in all kinds of destructive activities which cause harm to themselves and to others. So this is the condition of the material world. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda has stated that this is no place for a gentleman. In the material world everyone is, just as we are observing . . . I was visiting the Kṛṣṇa consciousness farm in British Columbia, and on the road we were passing large herds of beef cows. We were discussing that the farmer thinks of these cows not as spirit souls but as commodities. He simply puts them in a field to eat, and when they get big enough, kills them and takes the money for his enjoyment. He doesn't see that these are living entities, spirit souls. So this activity of the human beings, killing the cows, helpless cows by the thousands daily, is causing the . . . or is an indication that there is no merciful quality in the human beings. They are simply interested in their own aggrandizement and welfare. If they don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the only alternative. Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes and canvasses, and He tells the conditioned souls, "You must surrender to Me." And if one chooses not to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that means that he himself wants to become Kṛṣṇa—without any qualification. The spirit soul is infinitesimal spark of Kṛṣṇa. And that spark, when not in touch with Kṛṣṇa, the fire, becomes like the sparks of the fire not in contact with the fire: extinguished. So there is no good qualities for the living beings who are outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So the four types of men who surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they're doing so with some selfish interest. All of the conditioned souls are acting for their own selfish interest. They do not know otherwise. But somehow or other, if one of the conditioned souls will surrender to Kṛṣṇa by the grace of a pure devotee, then that immediately puts him into a situation of becoming purified. The greatest purification is to come in touch with a pure devotee of the Lord. There are many, many ritualistic activities prescribed in the Vedic literatures for gradual purification. But, as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī points out in his Upadeśāmṛta , what is the good of undergoing so much atonement and pious activity if the heart remains contaminated and the living entity remains sinful, ready to . . . just acting for his own benefit? Therefore the greatest opportunity for the conditioned soul is when he gets the chance to associate with a pure devotee of the Lord. *The pure devotee of the Lord instructs the conditioned soul to engage in activities just to please Kṛṣṇa, as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī explains. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11), without any separate interest, no mixture of jñāna or karma , no desire for sense gratification or acquisition of knowledge, just to engage in activities for the pleasure of the Supreme. This is the perfection. Otherwise, without coming in touch with a pure devotee of the Lord no one could understand this. And especially in this age of Kali, when the human society is so degraded that if it weren't for some laws prohibiting, and even despite those laws, the human beings are engaged in cut-throat activities, killing one another. Just like this abortion. Now they've passed some law which allows killing. So now it is going on, wholesale slaughtering, by mothers of their own children. This is the condition of human society. *So the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is specifically formed by Śrīla Prabhupāda to help those of us who are lost and entangled in this material condition to associate with one another under his guidance and achieve, by this process recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, chanting the holy name, we can achieve rapid purification, and in this one lifetime, Śrīla Prabhupāda has promised that we can go back to home, back to Godhead. So we should try to cooperate together. There is no other purpose. Once one comes in touch with the pure devotee and understands his message, and there's no other purpose for living in this material world than to serve the mission of the Lord. And that mission of the Lord, as already explained, is to reclaim the conditioned souls who have fallen into the material world and are lost, helplessly entrapped. So we should try and cooperate together. Learn Śrīla Prabhupāda's instructions very perfectly and try to carry them out, following the four regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds and working together to spread the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world so that its influence can affect all the living beings who are living on the face of the earth. Actually in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī has stated that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will spread all over the universe. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is undoubtedly empowered by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He's doing such wonderful service, spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over this globe, and we should pray that we can help in some small way. Thank you very much. Jaya . *So I have heard that there are about fifty thousand Indians in Toronto. So why they are not coming? They want to become bara*-sāhīb only? Yes, they are here to make the money, that's all they are doing. *(laughs) They have no other purpose? So this is not good. What is their objection? They don't want their own culture? This is Indian culture. They should be proud that Indian culture is being accepted by the foreigners. And they are living, they are becoming bara*-sāhīb ? What is this? Now it is your duty to deliver these bara-sāhībs , that they are not taking interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hmm? No, so is there any other outsider Indian present? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come here. But you have already joined. (laughter) He's . . . (indistinct) . . . from Montreal. Your trick. Your trademark is there. ( tilak ) *Nama oṁ viṣṇu*-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhūtale . . . There's Gururaj. They are also chanting sixteen rounds a day now, and he's staying at the temple. So he has already joined. I mean those who have not joined. I think this gentleman? I saw him in the morning. So, Kya karan hai je hamara bhartiya log nahi aate hain. (What is the reason that our Indians are not coming?) This is a very good question. Apne jo pucha . . . kyun nahi aate hain? (The question you have asked . . . why don't they come?) Ye to thik nahi hai kyunki . . . (This is not proper because . . .) this is the sign of degradation. So Indians have become so degraded, shall I take it like that? No, it's not that, but there must be some other reason why they're not coming. *What is other reason? There cannot be any reason. Here is temple of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa, and the Bhagavad-gītā is being preached, Bhāgavata is being preached. Why they do not take interest? I've been coming to temple for six years now here in Toronto. Well, you are coming, all right. But I have heard that there are fifty thousand Indians. So why they do not come? Maybe it's catching up now, more. Is there any special reason, they can discuss with me, if one is interested. Mujhe lagta hai, jaise ho sakta hai ki, jaisa hamara tarika hai ki sadkon pe jake . . ., log isse thoda ghabra jate hain. Kyunki wo sochte hain hamare upare discrimination aayegi. (I feel, it might be possible that, the system which we have of going out on the streets, people might get little nervous. They think that they might receive discrimination upon themselves.) The society here to accept this kind of thing, and people maybe don't want to align themselves with this kind of thing so that they are not ridiculed by others. This could be one of the reasons. Because, you know . . . Ridicule? The method may be, they may think, maybe that it is too strong for people here to accept. No, strong, disease bhi to strong hai na. Jaisa disease vaisa davai hona chahiye. Ye jo bhagavan ko bhool jana aur sharab pina maas khana ye disease to he bhari gambhir hai.. (The disease is also strong is it not? According to the disease, the right medicine must be used. This forgetfulness of God and taking intoxicants, eating meat - this disease is very serious.) Jaya , Hare Kṛṣṇa. Many of them think we're fanatical, from Western countries. Many? jaya Kya karan hai bhartiya log . . . (What is the reason the Indians . . .) I don't speak Hindi. I'm from South America, British Guinea. So what is the reason the Indians are not coming in large numbers? They are coming, some. I think they are too much in māyā . (laughter) They want to be Kṛṣṇa. Everybody wants to be Kṛṣṇa themselves. Rascal. (laughter) Everyone wants to become a rascal. Don't be that. Ve to inse bhi aage badh gaye hain, Americans se, unse bhi jyada khana pina shuru kar diye hain. (They have even gone ahead than the Americans, they have started to eat meat and consume alcohol more than these Americans.) Ye sab mayavadi ye log ko sikha diya sab jahanoom me jane ke liye. (All these Mayavadis have taught them to go to hell.) This is not good. Everyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa. Or they're seeking for Kṛṣṇa in the material world. Wo pahad utha sakta hai kya Krishna jaisa? (Can he lift the mountain like Kṛṣṇa?) As Kṛṣṇa lifted the Govardhana Hill at seven years old, so can he do that? Then how he'll become Kṛṣṇa? Simply by imagination. Kuch kar ke to dikhao. Ye sab badmaashi kharab kar diya hai Hindu society ko. (Show me by doing something. All this bullying has ruined the Hindu society. There are too many sections of religion, Hindu religion. *There cannot be any section. There are two section, demons and the demigods. That is the statement in the śāstra . Dvau bhūta*-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca (BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva and āsura . Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ . So if they want to remain demons, that is their choice. But that will not help them. Most fortunate men try to follow Kṛṣṇa. The unfortunate try to follow . . . So anyway, now it is Śubhavilāsa Prabhu's duty to bring these imitation Kṛṣṇas. Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. : Many, many good bhaktas are being spoiled by impersonalists nowadays . . . *Yes. You are personalist or impersonalist? He is personalist. (laughter) Hari*-nāma karo mala hai to japo. (Do harinam , if you have beads then chant.) So, another kīrtana ? (end) Conversation -- June 21, 1976, Toronto (Conversation in Airport and Car) (at airport; noise of airport announcements throughout) . . . Chapter: *This is the dharma , and Kṛṣṇa comes personally to establish it. And He makes distinction in the Fourth Chapter, dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, abhyutthānam adharmasya (BG 4.7). He distinguishes between adharma and dharma . And He's establishing at the end of Ninth Chapter that the dharma is to become His devotee, to think of Him, to worship Him and to offer all obeisances to Him. And that persons who reject this dharma or who have no information of this dharma , they have to revolve in the cycle of birth and death, not achieving Kṛṣṇa. The beginning is to understand this transmigration. But actually people do not understand. Cycle of birth and death . . . if one does not understand what is birth and death, what he'll understand of cycle of birth and death? Mostly because they do not understand what is birth and what is death, they are mostly going on on the bodily concept of life. That is animal life. Ask anybody. Bodily concept. And everything is going on. We pass through Canada to USA. Why Canada? Why USA? This bodily concept. It is meant for the Canadians, it is meant for USA, Americans. Immigration, customs—the same mentality as a dog coming from other neighborhood. The other dogs, they all come together, " Yow, yow! Why you have come? Why you have come?" In civilized dress only. This is the position. What is the difference between the dog's mentality . . . when another dog comes to another neighborhood, these neighborhood dogs, you know that? All animals, " Yow! Why you have come?" So this department, "Why you have come here?" dogs barking, and this immigration, what is the difference? Is there any difference? There is no difference. (chuckles) This is our policy. Very difficult. (break) . . . they will understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Their mentality is not better than the animals. It's probably a lot worse. *Yes. Worse, because animal has got some limit, but a human being who has developed consciousness, it is unlimited. Just like a thief is thief, but when an attorney*-in-law is a thief, he's a very big thief. Huh? (airport announcement) When a man's educated to know the difference . . . Ordinary thief and a educated thief. In your country there are many lawyers. Their only business is how to cheat. Every lawyer. Because they're trying to make money as well, only they're in a better position. Big, big lawyers, through this real estatement. I have got bitter experience. People go to real estate man, he has got, say, five thousand dollars, and he wants to purchase one hundred thousand worth property. And they'll say: "Yes. We shall arrange." He will, in such a way, implicate, that he will take this five thousand dollars, and it will be divided amongst them. He will not give anything. We lost quite a bit of property in Detroit because of that lawyer of Ambarīṣa's. Hmm? That lawyer of Ambarīṣa's, when they did the Detroit deal, they said they lost quite a bit of movable property because the lawyer did a deal with the real estate agent to take it away for himself. He got that boat very cheap, and other things also. Lawyer is thief, medical man is thief. All thieves. They're all thieves. Then whom to believe? Whom to believe, this is the question. The general public, they are becoming very bitter, very frustrated, because they can't turn to anyone for protection anymore. The government is the biggest thief. *Dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ . It is stated that all government men will be rogues and thieves. Rājanyair dasyu-dharmabhiḥ (SB 12.2.8). Rājanyaiḥ means government men, and dasyu-dharma means practiced to roguery, thieves. In America police are well known for being corrupt. Everywhere. In India. Police means everyone takes, first of all . . . (indistinct) They can be saved only by your mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and the mercy of Lord Caitanya. *Yes. It is by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa only you are saved. Otherwise, our Bombay construction was rejected by the police constable that, " Kīrtana is nuisance." Public servant, he can say, blaspheme a religious system, Bhagavad*-gītā , in the same country, Bhagavad-gītā . And India is condemning now, government men, " Kīrtana is nuisance." Temporarily, at least, it seems the demons are very powerful. They will become powerful. And people will be less intelligent—means less God conscious. Just like when the king is weak, thieves and rogues, they flourish. So we just have to be very strong and uncompromising. Hm? We just have to be very strong and uncompromising. How you can compromise with thieves and rogues? (pause) Boarding time? The flight leaves at 5:05. They'll call. They'll call when it's time. The plane doesn't appear to be here just yet. 4.45 it's due in. (break) . . . pieces cloth. Although they are poor, still they can understand it very easily, very easily, that you are not this body; there is God; if you don't become devotee, you'll remain in this material . . . these things they will immediately understand. How is it that, say . . . obviously they must be backed by very great pious activity, but somehow or other, they . . . Therefore they have taken birth in India. Is that special mercy, that they seem to be impoverished? Hmm? Is that special arrangement that they seem to be impoverished? Say like the villagers, they're not very wealthy, or, uh . . . That is due to misgovernment. There is no king; all rogues and thieves are in the government. Mismanagement. It is the government duty to see that everyone is doing nicely so that they can live peacefully, happily. There must be direction. Just like parentless children. Nobody is to take care; they'll be wretched. So India's position is like that—the parentless children. There is no good government. And they supply this control wheat that is not even touchable. Unfit for human consumption. There is a worm . . . Control wheat? Yes. They purchase from here and there all rejected wheat, and they supply it. There is no ghee, no milk, no proper food grain. Everything black market. Any necessary commodity you cannot have in the open market; you have to purchase in black market. Just like for the building purpose, cement. In your country you can purchase any amount of it. You cannot purchase. You have to purchase black market, and that cement also mixed with some . . . what is that? Mixed with . . . (indistinct) . . . or something. And unless you give some bribe, it is not possible. (break) . . . for the balcony in the church in the other room? The vyāsāsana . (indistinct—announcement being made) . . . fit for sitting. That is very nice. And next time when I come the seat should be just Deity altar, so that all balcony can see. Seat should be . . .? My seat should be near the altar of the Deity. *The vyāsāsana . Like in Los Angeles, at the side? On the left*-hand side? *Not left*-hand side. Just like you are facing Deity and there are spaces here. Between the doors. Yes. Which side, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Eh? *Which side . . . on the left*-hand side or the right-hand side of the Deity, facing towards the altar? Any side. Any side? How far away from the front? In the middle, so that they can see from the balcony as well. Yes. (child calls out) "Prabhupāda"? No. Sounded like it. Sounded like it. I don't think it could have been, though. Not a devotee. Child is . . . Could be Buffalo. No, it's not. I see the child. He'll have the same benediction as Ajāmila. (child calls out "Prabhupāda") He knows me. (laughs) (break) Should there be a canopy over top of the vyāsāsana ? No, no canopy. (break) . . . to fly to our New Vrindavan? How long it takes? *I asked Kīrtanānanda. He said about one hour, twenty, twenty*-five minutes. (break) (in car after arrival) Let us see what is the reception. (break) We have come from a different way. From Buffalo. Yes, you had to come from Buffalo. (break) . . . take to get to Buffalo? Three hours. No, only about an hour and a half. Hour and half? Yes. No, no, from . . . To the airport from Toronto? From leaving Toronto, we left one o'clock, and we arrived at . . . it was about two hours. We arrived just after three. Some devotees were there from Buffalo? Oh, yes. (break) . . . had a very nice place for you. *Oh, yes. (break) People are being kept in such an ignorant way that they do not care about sinful activities. They can do anything for sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Actually, there is no advancement of civilization. They are thinking they are running on four*-wheel motorcar, and the dog is running on four legs. What is the quality change? This is going on in the name of civilization, and people are kept in ignorance. Where is the advancement? Running by motorcar is advancement? They have no knowledge that there is next life, and "Today I am running on Ford car, tomorrow I may have to run like dog on four legs." They do not think like that. *So this is ignorance, this is ignorance. And they are kept, the whole world—the state, the father, the guardian, everyone, the priest . . . (indistinct) . . . knowledge. Dull*-headed, ignorant. And they are passing on as philosopher, scientist, religious leader. (break) . . . hard to bring them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Taking these few years, fifty years or sixty years living here, and dance like dog and finish. There is no life. You die peacefully or . . . (indistinct) . . . and not dying peacefully, they cry. Hare Kṛṣṇa. How to save them is very difficult. Simply chant. This is the only. Give them chance to come and chant with us, take prasādam . Then after few days or few months, let them understand the philosophy. We have all got this experience. You have all got this experience. This is the only way. I started this movement on this determination that, "They have nothing to give. Simply by propaganda they are exacting so many people and befooling them. And I'll give them prasādam , nice chanting, and they will not come? They must come." This was my determination. And I began with this. I remember. *So this is the only way. Give them chance, "No talk, please come. Chant and dance with us and take kṛṣṇa*-prasāda and go home." I think it was just ten years ago when I first met you. Yes. This month. *I never said that "You have to give up this, you have to do this, you have to . . ." Never said it. Then gradually, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). When the heart becomes cleansed, then little . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no hopelessness. Because so many people have come, and they are coming. Both black, white, everyone is coming. There is no question of . . . (indistinct) . . . but you cannot expect that cent percent people will come. That is not possible. But even, even one-fourth percent people will come to this, then it will be successful. Compared to the American population, what percentage we have got? Still we have made some impression, the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Literatures are selling, they are appreciating, learned circle. Takes some time, but if we stick to our principles and do not make any compromise and push on—in this way, as I have given you instruction—it will never stop; *it will go on. It will never stop. At least for ten thousand years it will go on. That is in your . . . (indistinct) . . . and this movement is meant for these fourth*-class, fifth-class, tenth-class men. Not this movement is fourth class, fifth class. They are so fallen that they cannot be counted even third class, fourth class—tenth class of men. Deliver them. Patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's incarnation is for delivering these classes of men. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never meant to start this movement for high-class brāhmaṇas , sages, saintly persons—no. This class of men. For the all fallen. Kali-yuga, all fallen. Don't be disappointed. Go on, go on. Stick to the principles. When there was no response, I did not know where to live, where to eat. Sometimes with Dr. Mishra, sometimes with some friend somewhere. Where to live? And I was going to inquire the shipping company when the next ship returning to India. Still I was renewing my visa, "Let us hope. Let us hope." In this way, we started Second Avenue in month of July, I think? June or July. June or July, I think. Yes, June or July. Yes, June. I think it was June. Then Hayagrīva and Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, they came first. Before that, Mukunda came. He's the oldest devotee? Mukunda? He's the oldest devotee? Yes. There were others; they have left. That Mr. Green. Jagannātha dāsa. I think you named him Jagannātha. *And Ravīndra*-svarūpa. Another one, Carl, Carl. Carl, yes. He has left. To Washington directly? This road? Not Washington, D.C. This is Washington, Pennsylvania. This is Pennsylvania state? Yes. The girls were saying that today at the airport was the most demoniac day they ever had. Eh? Today was the most demoniac day at the airport they've ever had. They're getting very, very nasty. Every time they talked to someone, they come up and they say: "Don't take it. Don't take it. They're ripping you off. They're 'Moon' people," like that. "Moon people"? What is that? *You know there's a lot of publicity right now about this Korean so*-called spiritual master, Moon. We just read one article in the U.S. News , shows a picture, that man it describes. It is causing a big stir, these "Moon" people. He has just bought the hotel in New York for five million dollars. He is also against our movement? Well, I wouldn't say . . . he never says anything about our movement . . . (indistinct) . . . but they are equating us with him. Yes. Ah. The public is sometimes equating us with him and these other rascals. He claims that Jesus Christ never lived to fulfill his mission, which was to establish the perfect family. They killed him before he got married. So he has come, and he has all these wives. At least, he used to . . . always, whenever any of his disciples would get married, first he would have their wife. And they're doing that? (laughs) People cannot distinguish between what is true and what is bogus. (break) . . . sophistication. (break) . . . reminds me of a place in Germany. Heidelberg. Yes. Like New Vrindavan? Yes, you'll find so many places in this country named . . . this probably was originally a settlement of German people from Heidelburg. (break) I don't know. It was a chemical plant. *Oh. These things are not required at all, but they have created. They are called anartha , unnecessarily diverting valuable attention of the human being to waste their time and energy and next life become a dog. That they do not know. This science is unknown to them. They'll believe, "This life finished, everything finished." That's all. (break) . . . is working. That they do not know. Life is eternal, and how we are under this cycle of birth and death, nothing. Yāvad jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet . Cārvāka Muni's philosophy. "So long you live, live happily." But actually they are not living happily. To work in this factory is not happy. He has got suffering. But they are thinking they are happy. Just like the hog eating stool, he is happy. This is gross ignorance. Actually, therefore, there is revolt against these capitalist. There is another unhappiness. Now there is strike. So where is happiness? If there is happiness, why there is strike? Why there is so many strikes? Why there is protest? There is no happiness, but they are thinking it is happiness. Whole thing is based on ignorance, māyā . Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje. And the direct method for subduing these anarthas, unnecessary troubles— bhakti-yoga . There is no other way. Only bhakti-yoga . Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasya ajānataḥ (SB 1.7.6). People do not know it. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Therefore Vyāsadeva, most learned scholar, he has made this Bhāgavatam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣāt. (break) I was translating the Bhāgavatam , Eighth Canto, Twelfth Chapter. How many chapters is there? *Twenty*-four. Twenty-four. Half finished. Half finished, Eighth Canto. What is Eighth Canto like? What does Eighth Canto contain? Eighth Canto? There is churning of the ocean and producing nectar, and the demons, they did not receive the nectar. There was fight. And the story of Gajendra, as well? Gajendra, that is I think Seventh Canto, no? Beginning of the Eighth. Yes. Gajendra also. That means four parts. That means four books for the Eighth Canto. Yes. Each volume is more wonderful. Each volume . . . Ah? Oh, yes. There is no comparison of this literature. I think before you came, *Bhāgavatam* was unknown. Unknown, yes. The Ramakrishna Mission published one *Bhāgavatam* commentary. You know that? Farce. They, these Ramakrishna Mission people, have done the greatest harm to the Vedic culture . . . (indistinct) . . . of course, it is not taken very seriously, Ramakrishna Mission. Not in the West. But they publicized in India that they have all, everyone, become . . . (indistinct) . . . in India they were doing like that, "Vivekananda Road," "Vivekananda Square," and rascals, they do not inquire even what is Vivekananda's contribution. Pradulika prabhāva. You made a good point about why, although now thousands of American boys and girls are coming to India, no one is going to the Ramakrishna Mission, so what kind of impact has he had? In Vṛndāvana they have got hospital and Ramakrishna temple. Who is going there? This is practical example. In our temple, thousands and thousands of the foreign boys and girls are coming, and who is going there? If it was actually they did something, they should at least have gone there out of inquisitiveness: "Oh, where is Vivekananda?" Nobody goes there. Not even to pass urine there. (laughter) (break) That Japanese tape recorder. And Hichai is . . . this is called hitchhike? Hitchhike. *That is "hitchhike," and this is Hitch*-hi. Hitachi. Hitachi, yes. This is a church? No, this is an institution, state institution for old people or mental home. I forget. "Western State School." (break) . . . Hayagrīva. I think he's in Los Angeles. Yes. *I'm trying to get him to bring his boy to New Vrindavan. He's down there with those meat*-eaters. She is not agreeable? I think that she is not very well treated by her husband. No. Therefore . . . otherwise, she is a good girl. Hayagrīva's very . . . (indistinct) I know she is good girl. He has disrupted his family also. If a devotee doesn't follow the principles, then he is sure to suffer. Nothing can be good in his family life. I thought that he is happy in family life. His father and mother came to congratulate him. He was better shape when I saw him last week than I've seen him in a long time. Huh? He was better in Los Angeles when I saw him last week than I've seen him in a long time. Yes. He never lost his sentiment for you. No, that I know. Therefore I like. But he's addicted to his bad habits. He'll be corrected. There is no hopelessness. I've always felt that, but it makes it difficult to live with him in the meantime. (Prabhupāda laughs) Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). Is that railway line? No. (break) There are some roads, large size roads, Los Angeles. That is America everywhere. Big cars and big roads. Opulence. America seems to be one big highway. They have got cars and they have got roads also. Very good. That's all right. But why they should give up the real business of life? I don't think it's so much that they gave it up, they didn't ever know what it was. There was no preaching. There was no education on this subject. The Christian priests, they are unable to . . . They have no knowledge themselves. How they can teach? They are all giving up out of hopelessness themselves. Yes. They are now asking . . . in Melbourne the priest asked me, "Swāmījī, why Christian religion is dwindling? What we have done?" I told them, "What you have not done?" (laughs) They were little insulted. That first time you visited that monastery, the man that was in charge, the head monk there, after you had visited, a short while later he left and he went to India, looking for enlightenment. Perhaps he got some shock when I said that, "What you have not done?" They received me very well. (break) *Altogether about an hour and half. About forty*-five minutes more. What is being done with Hayagrīva's house? I bought that from him. There are a few devotees there right now. No, the other house. Which one? Up at the original farm? No, not original. That's the one I'm talking about. Tulasī ? No, they're just wild flowers. Very nice. Very fragrant. Yes . . . (indistinct) (break) (Prabhupāda is taking prasādam ) There's plenty of milk and ghee. This is human food. They do not know how to eat, the Westerners. (break) . . . ever eat these nice foods they give up so much sinful activity, very easily. Hmm? By just eating nice foods they can give up so much sinful activity. Who has made them? Different devotees—mother Lakhimā, mother . . . (indistinct) Combined effort. Tamāla said this is the only place in the US now they have Vedic cooking. (break) . . . facility to get enough ghee. They have got the chance. Fresh vegetables, everything. (break) Feast? Yes. What did they say after eating these things? (break) . . . Indians come and they always say, "Who has taught you to cook like this?" We tell them, "Śrīla Prabhupāda has taught us everything." At this 26 Second Avenue, Acyutānanda Mahārāja . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Many Indians come? Yes. (break) . . . membership program now. There were about three or four hundred Indians came to the feast yesterday. No, not yesterday; on Sunday. Six hundred. Six hundred. In Toronto? Yes, very big turnout. Big turnout also in Detroit. Same in Detroit. I never realized there were so many Indians all over the world. Generally, they are engaged in education. I know in England they all have responsible jobs. Doctors and like that. There are many medical practitioners, Indians. I have . . . I learned that British people, they like Indian physicians. Oh, yes, they're very popular. They have got faith that these people treat carefully. One civil surgeon is a Bengali in London. Civil surgeon. You have heard this Aurobindo? His father was a medical practitioner in England, and he was born there. His mother was Indian also or . . .? No. (break) Indian families, they are living for two, three generation. (break) . . . teaching them how to make home comfortable, they'll be trained up to become prostitutes. How to kill time. (break) I think Tamāla was saying in New York they need good cooks there. Tamāla was saying that in New York they don't have very good cooks there. Nowhere there is good cook except here. (laughter) Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is good cook. He's trained everybody up very nicely. Prabhupāda knows how to flatter. Well, I think even we could not cook so good in Boston or New York. Without being in Vrindaban and the natural ingredients, it is not so . . . You can supply them ghee. Yes, we can do that. (break) You grow podina ? Podina ? Mint? Mint? Mint? Yes. Chutney. Mint chutney. How do you make mint chutney? I'll teach you. You have got mango? Yes. I'll teach you. Chili? They are not ripe yet. The plants are still too small for this year. They are not giving chili? Not yet. It is too early. In August. But I can get. I can get green chili. (break) . . . something to drink? No. I don't know what happened to that orange juice. Someone else was carrying it. (break) . . . because it is so nice. That is your mercy. So this was my dream, that a place should be there where we can get all nice foods, best foods, of milk. Kṛṣṇa is fulfilling that desire. Everything's there. Simply these rascals, they do not know how to live or to eat. Everything there. Intelligence is there, everything is there. Simply for want of training they have become rogues. Make them human beings, your countrymen. Everyone should follow the duty, materially and spiritually. Anyway . . . here is very nice here, this climate. It is a winter season of . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) These months, June, July, August, up to September? No, actually up to November. The devotees like the winter, though. Oh, yes. It is even more conducive to think of Kṛṣṇa in the winter. So the neighborers, they like it? Neighborhood men? Most of them like us. There are a few that don't like us. But they are not violent. They are a little nasty. Nasty they have been trained up to be. (Sanskrit) Once trained up nastily, it is very difficult to . . . The state police in this local area has become very favorable to us. During that quarantine the state police had to stay there. So they even began to come to ārati . They took our books; they were reading but there's been a lot of change in some of the government. Some of the government men are now much favorable, more understanding. Whatever was there, it was due to misunderstanding. The sheriff is very favorable to us. Eh? The sheriff is very favorable, the judge. That judge that came to see you last time you were here, he still keeps a picture of you in his desk. Oh. When the palace is finished we will have nice ceremonies, and many of the local dignitaries will come. (break) . . . begins? Moundsville is that way about five miles. We are almost to New Vrindavan now. Two miles. Yes. Our post office is Moundsville. Yes. Do you want to go directly to your quarters, or do you want to stop by the temple? Yes, temple. Deities open? Yes. Then . . . (break) Actually it is gradually expanding in these quarters. (break) . . . be on local television soon. That will be very good propaganda for us. Yes. It is shown? Or no, not yet. Not yet. One thing you have missed: how we are preparing all these foodstuff. It was too short. In the movie? It was too short how to prepare it? Yes. How from milk in different stages you get this foodstuff, kachorīs, siṅgāra, sandeśa, rābṛi . And this chānā , if fried, if you prepare nicely with little hing and ginger, then it will exactly taste like meat. They'll forget. If you give them without telling them, they will think that they're eating meat. Hing and what? Prepare with hing and . . .? Ginger. Ginger. They prepare the semiliquid meat like that. You give them little piece and they will not understand that it is not meat. (laughs) When we were in Los Angeles, Pālikā made some barā and it tasted . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja wouldn't eat it. He said it tasted too much like fish. With urad ḍāl , you can prepare fishy taste. Someone told me that your Guru Mahārāja said that . . . (laughs) Yes. Anyone who is not taking urad ḍāl , he must be taking fish silently, secretly. (break) Not on this side, other side. I want to buy that farm there. This barn, Vrindaban. What is this building? They are constructing a . . . I have a big carpenter shop, a construction shop, a printing shop. And upstairs there will be a big hall for Janmāṣṭamī that holds seven, eight hundred people. There is another . . . that's our guesthouse building we're building there. You can see the top two floors, with the arches. What is this? Another barn? This is an ox barn here. No, this. That tank? That tank we are making for grain storage. Oh, much improvement. (end) Conversation -- June 21, 1976, Toronto (Conversation in Airport and Car) (at airport; noise of airport announcements throughout) . . . Chapter: *This is the dharma , and Kṛṣṇa comes personally to establish it. And He makes distinction in the Fourth Chapter, dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, abhyutthānam adharmasya (BG 4.7). He distinguishes between adharma and dharma . And He's establishing at the end of Ninth Chapter that the dharma is to become His devotee, to think of Him, to worship Him and to offer all obeisances to Him. And that persons who reject this dharma or who have no information of this dharma , they have to revolve in the cycle of birth and death, not achieving Kṛṣṇa. The beginning is to understand this transmigration. But actually people do not understand. Cycle of birth and death . . . if one does not understand what is birth and death, what he'll understand of cycle of birth and death? Mostly because they do not understand what is birth and what is death, they are mostly going on on the bodily concept of life. That is animal life. Ask anybody. Bodily concept. And everything is going on. We pass through Canada to USA. Why Canada? Why USA? This bodily concept. It is meant for the Canadians, it is meant for USA, Americans. Immigration, customs—the same mentality as a dog coming from other neighborhood. The other dogs, they all come together, " Yow, yow! Why you have come? Why you have come?" In civilized dress only. This is the position. What is the difference between the dog's mentality . . . when another dog comes to another neighborhood, these neighborhood dogs, you know that? All animals, " Yow! Why you have come?" So this department, "Why you have come here?" dogs barking, and this immigration, what is the difference? Is there any difference? There is no difference. (chuckles) This is our policy. Very difficult. (break) . . . they will understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Their mentality is not better than the animals. It's probably a lot worse. *Yes. Worse, because animal has got some limit, but a human being who has developed consciousness, it is unlimited. Just like a thief is thief, but when an attorney*-in-law is a thief, he's a very big thief. Huh? (airport announcement) When a man's educated to know the difference . . . Ordinary thief and a educated thief. In your country there are many lawyers. Their only business is how to cheat. Every lawyer. Because they're trying to make money as well, only they're in a better position. Big, big lawyers, through this real estatement. I have got bitter experience. People go to real estate man, he has got, say, five thousand dollars, and he wants to purchase one hundred thousand worth property. And they'll say: "Yes. We shall arrange." He will, in such a way, implicate, that he will take this five thousand dollars, and it will be divided amongst them. He will not give anything. We lost quite a bit of property in Detroit because of that lawyer of Ambarīṣa's. Hmm? That lawyer of Ambarīṣa's, when they did the Detroit deal, they said they lost quite a bit of movable property because the lawyer did a deal with the real estate agent to take it away for himself. He got that boat very cheap, and other things also. Lawyer is thief, medical man is thief. All thieves. They're all thieves. Then whom to believe? Whom to believe, this is the question. The general public, they are becoming very bitter, very frustrated, because they can't turn to anyone for protection anymore. The government is the biggest thief. *Dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ . It is stated that all government men will be rogues and thieves. Rājanyair dasyu-dharmabhiḥ (SB 12.2.8). Rājanyaiḥ means government men, and dasyu-dharma means practiced to roguery, thieves. In America police are well known for being corrupt. Everywhere. In India. Police means everyone takes, first of all . . . (indistinct) They can be saved only by your mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and the mercy of Lord Caitanya. *Yes. It is by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa only you are saved. Otherwise, our Bombay construction was rejected by the police constable that, " Kīrtana is nuisance." Public servant, he can say, blaspheme a religious system, Bhagavad*-gītā , in the same country, Bhagavad-gītā . And India is condemning now, government men, " Kīrtana is nuisance." Temporarily, at least, it seems the demons are very powerful. They will become powerful. And people will be less intelligent—means less God conscious. Just like when the king is weak, thieves and rogues, they flourish. So we just have to be very strong and uncompromising. Hm? We just have to be very strong and uncompromising. How you can compromise with thieves and rogues? (pause) Boarding time? The flight leaves at 5:05. They'll call. They'll call when it's time. The plane doesn't appear to be here just yet. 4.45 it's due in. (break) . . . pieces cloth. Although they are poor, still they can understand it very easily, very easily, that you are not this body; there is God; if you don't become devotee, you'll remain in this material . . . these things they will immediately understand. How is it that, say . . . obviously they must be backed by very great pious activity, but somehow or other, they . . . Therefore they have taken birth in India. Is that special mercy, that they seem to be impoverished? Hmm? Is that special arrangement that they seem to be impoverished? Say like the villagers, they're not very wealthy, or, uh . . . That is due to misgovernment. There is no king; all rogues and thieves are in the government. Mismanagement. It is the government duty to see that everyone is doing nicely so that they can live peacefully, happily. There must be direction. Just like parentless children. Nobody is to take care; they'll be wretched. So India's position is like that—the parentless children. There is no good government. And they supply this control wheat that is not even touchable. Unfit for human consumption. There is a worm . . . Control wheat? Yes. They purchase from here and there all rejected wheat, and they supply it. There is no ghee, no milk, no proper food grain. Everything black market. Any necessary commodity you cannot have in the open market; you have to purchase in black market. Just like for the building purpose, cement. In your country you can purchase any amount of it. You cannot purchase. You have to purchase black market, and that cement also mixed with some . . . what is that? Mixed with . . . (indistinct) . . . or something. And unless you give some bribe, it is not possible. (break) . . . for the balcony in the church in the other room? The vyāsāsana . (indistinct—announcement being made) . . . fit for sitting. That is very nice. And next time when I come the seat should be just Deity altar, so that all balcony can see. Seat should be . . .? My seat should be near the altar of the Deity. *The vyāsāsana . Like in Los Angeles, at the side? On the left*-hand side? *Not left*-hand side. Just like you are facing Deity and there are spaces here. Between the doors. Yes. Which side, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Eh? *Which side . . . on the left*-hand side or the right-hand side of the Deity, facing towards the altar? Any side. Any side? How far away from the front? In the middle, so that they can see from the balcony as well. Yes. (child calls out) "Prabhupāda"? No. Sounded like it. Sounded like it. I don't think it could have been, though. Not a devotee. Child is . . . Could be Buffalo. No, it's not. I see the child. He'll have the same benediction as Ajāmila. (child calls out "Prabhupāda") He knows me. (laughs) (break) Should there be a canopy over top of the vyāsāsana ? No, no canopy. (break) . . . to fly to our New Vrindavan? How long it takes? *I asked Kīrtanānanda. He said about one hour, twenty, twenty*-five minutes. (break) (in car after arrival) Let us see what is the reception. (break) We have come from a different way. From Buffalo. Yes, you had to come from Buffalo. (break) . . . take to get to Buffalo? Three hours. No, only about an hour and a half. Hour and half? Yes. No, no, from . . . To the airport from Toronto? From leaving Toronto, we left one o'clock, and we arrived at . . . it was about two hours. We arrived just after three. Some devotees were there from Buffalo? Oh, yes. (break) . . . had a very nice place for you. *Oh, yes. (break) People are being kept in such an ignorant way that they do not care about sinful activities. They can do anything for sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Actually, there is no advancement of civilization. They are thinking they are running on four*-wheel motorcar, and the dog is running on four legs. What is the quality change? This is going on in the name of civilization, and people are kept in ignorance. Where is the advancement? Running by motorcar is advancement? They have no knowledge that there is next life, and "Today I am running on Ford car, tomorrow I may have to run like dog on four legs." They do not think like that. *So this is ignorance, this is ignorance. And they are kept, the whole world—the state, the father, the guardian, everyone, the priest . . . (indistinct) . . . knowledge. Dull*-headed, ignorant. And they are passing on as philosopher, scientist, religious leader. (break) . . . hard to bring them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Taking these few years, fifty years or sixty years living here, and dance like dog and finish. There is no life. You die peacefully or . . . (indistinct) . . . and not dying peacefully, they cry. Hare Kṛṣṇa. How to save them is very difficult. Simply chant. This is the only. Give them chance to come and chant with us, take prasādam . Then after few days or few months, let them understand the philosophy. We have all got this experience. You have all got this experience. This is the only way. I started this movement on this determination that, "They have nothing to give. Simply by propaganda they are exacting so many people and befooling them. And I'll give them prasādam , nice chanting, and they will not come? They must come." This was my determination. And I began with this. I remember. *So this is the only way. Give them chance, "No talk, please come. Chant and dance with us and take kṛṣṇa*-prasāda and go home." I think it was just ten years ago when I first met you. Yes. This month. *I never said that "You have to give up this, you have to do this, you have to . . ." Never said it. Then gradually, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). When the heart becomes cleansed, then little . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no hopelessness. Because so many people have come, and they are coming. Both black, white, everyone is coming. There is no question of . . . (indistinct) . . . but you cannot expect that cent percent people will come. That is not possible. But even, even one-fourth percent people will come to this, then it will be successful. Compared to the American population, what percentage we have got? Still we have made some impression, the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Literatures are selling, they are appreciating, learned circle. Takes some time, but if we stick to our principles and do not make any compromise and push on—in this way, as I have given you instruction—it will never stop; *it will go on. It will never stop. At least for ten thousand years it will go on. That is in your . . . (indistinct) . . . and this movement is meant for these fourth*-class, fifth-class, tenth-class men. Not this movement is fourth class, fifth class. They are so fallen that they cannot be counted even third class, fourth class—tenth class of men. Deliver them. Patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's incarnation is for delivering these classes of men. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never meant to start this movement for high-class brāhmaṇas , sages, saintly persons—no. This class of men. For the all fallen. Kali-yuga, all fallen. Don't be disappointed. Go on, go on. Stick to the principles. When there was no response, I did not know where to live, where to eat. Sometimes with Dr. Mishra, sometimes with some friend somewhere. Where to live? And I was going to inquire the shipping company when the next ship returning to India. Still I was renewing my visa, "Let us hope. Let us hope." In this way, we started Second Avenue in month of July, I think? June or July. June or July, I think. Yes, June or July. Yes, June. I think it was June. Then Hayagrīva and Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, they came first. Before that, Mukunda came. He's the oldest devotee? Mukunda? He's the oldest devotee? Yes. There were others; they have left. That Mr. Green. Jagannātha dāsa. I think you named him Jagannātha. *And Ravīndra*-svarūpa. Another one, Carl, Carl. Carl, yes. He has left. To Washington directly? This road? Not Washington, D.C. This is Washington, Pennsylvania. This is Pennsylvania state? Yes. The girls were saying that today at the airport was the most demoniac day they ever had. Eh? Today was the most demoniac day at the airport they've ever had. They're getting very, very nasty. Every time they talked to someone, they come up and they say: "Don't take it. Don't take it. They're ripping you off. They're 'Moon' people," like that. "Moon people"? What is that? *You know there's a lot of publicity right now about this Korean so*-called spiritual master, Moon. We just read one article in the U.S. News , shows a picture, that man it describes. It is causing a big stir, these "Moon" people. He has just bought the hotel in New York for five million dollars. He is also against our movement? Well, I wouldn't say . . . he never says anything about our movement . . . (indistinct) . . . but they are equating us with him. Yes. Ah. The public is sometimes equating us with him and these other rascals. He claims that Jesus Christ never lived to fulfill his mission, which was to establish the perfect family. They killed him before he got married. So he has come, and he has all these wives. At least, he used to . . . always, whenever any of his disciples would get married, first he would have their wife. And they're doing that? (laughs) People cannot distinguish between what is true and what is bogus. (break) . . . sophistication. (break) . . . reminds me of a place in Germany. Heidelberg. Yes. Like New Vrindavan? Yes, you'll find so many places in this country named . . . this probably was originally a settlement of German people from Heidelburg. (break) I don't know. It was a chemical plant. *Oh. These things are not required at all, but they have created. They are called anartha , unnecessarily diverting valuable attention of the human being to waste their time and energy and next life become a dog. That they do not know. This science is unknown to them. They'll believe, "This life finished, everything finished." That's all. (break) . . . is working. That they do not know. Life is eternal, and how we are under this cycle of birth and death, nothing. Yāvad jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet . Cārvāka Muni's philosophy. "So long you live, live happily." But actually they are not living happily. To work in this factory is not happy. He has got suffering. But they are thinking they are happy. Just like the hog eating stool, he is happy. This is gross ignorance. Actually, therefore, there is revolt against these capitalist. There is another unhappiness. Now there is strike. So where is happiness? If there is happiness, why there is strike? Why there is so many strikes? Why there is protest? There is no happiness, but they are thinking it is happiness. Whole thing is based on ignorance, māyā . Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje. And the direct method for subduing these anarthas, unnecessary troubles— bhakti-yoga . There is no other way. Only bhakti-yoga . Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasya ajānataḥ (SB 1.7.6). People do not know it. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Therefore Vyāsadeva, most learned scholar, he has made this Bhāgavatam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣāt. (break) I was translating the Bhāgavatam , Eighth Canto, Twelfth Chapter. How many chapters is there? *Twenty*-four. Twenty-four. Half finished. Half finished, Eighth Canto. What is Eighth Canto like? What does Eighth Canto contain? Eighth Canto? There is churning of the ocean and producing nectar, and the demons, they did not receive the nectar. There was fight. And the story of Gajendra, as well? Gajendra, that is I think Seventh Canto, no? Beginning of the Eighth. Yes. Gajendra also. That means four parts. That means four books for the Eighth Canto. Yes. Each volume is more wonderful. Each volume . . . Ah? Oh, yes. There is no comparison of this literature. I think before you came, *Bhāgavatam* was unknown. Unknown, yes. The Ramakrishna Mission published one *Bhāgavatam* commentary. You know that? Farce. They, these Ramakrishna Mission people, have done the greatest harm to the Vedic culture . . . (indistinct) . . . of course, it is not taken very seriously, Ramakrishna Mission. Not in the West. But they publicized in India that they have all, everyone, become . . . (indistinct) . . . in India they were doing like that, "Vivekananda Road," "Vivekananda Square," and rascals, they do not inquire even what is Vivekananda's contribution. Pradulika prabhāva. You made a good point about why, although now thousands of American boys and girls are coming to India, no one is going to the Ramakrishna Mission, so what kind of impact has he had? In Vṛndāvana they have got hospital and Ramakrishna temple. Who is going there? This is practical example. In our temple, thousands and thousands of the foreign boys and girls are coming, and who is going there? If it was actually they did something, they should at least have gone there out of inquisitiveness: "Oh, where is Vivekananda?" Nobody goes there. Not even to pass urine there. (laughter) (break) That Japanese tape recorder. And Hichai is . . . this is called hitchhike? Hitchhike. *That is "hitchhike," and this is Hitch*-hi. Hitachi. Hitachi, yes. This is a church? No, this is an institution, state institution for old people or mental home. I forget. "Western State School." (break) . . . Hayagrīva. I think he's in Los Angeles. Yes. *I'm trying to get him to bring his boy to New Vrindavan. He's down there with those meat*-eaters. She is not agreeable? I think that she is not very well treated by her husband. No. Therefore . . . otherwise, she is a good girl. Hayagrīva's very . . . (indistinct) I know she is good girl. He has disrupted his family also. If a devotee doesn't follow the principles, then he is sure to suffer. Nothing can be good in his family life. I thought that he is happy in family life. His father and mother came to congratulate him. He was better shape when I saw him last week than I've seen him in a long time. Huh? He was better in Los Angeles when I saw him last week than I've seen him in a long time. Yes. He never lost his sentiment for you. No, that I know. Therefore I like. But he's addicted to his bad habits. He'll be corrected. There is no hopelessness. I've always felt that, but it makes it difficult to live with him in the meantime. (Prabhupāda laughs) Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). Is that railway line? No. (break) There are some roads, large size roads, Los Angeles. That is America everywhere. Big cars and big roads. Opulence. America seems to be one big highway. They have got cars and they have got roads also. Very good. That's all right. But why they should give up the real business of life? I don't think it's so much that they gave it up, they didn't ever know what it was. There was no preaching. There was no education on this subject. The Christian priests, they are unable to . . . They have no knowledge themselves. How they can teach? They are all giving up out of hopelessness themselves. Yes. They are now asking . . . in Melbourne the priest asked me, "Swāmījī, why Christian religion is dwindling? What we have done?" I told them, "What you have not done?" (laughs) They were little insulted. That first time you visited that monastery, the man that was in charge, the head monk there, after you had visited, a short while later he left and he went to India, looking for enlightenment. Perhaps he got some shock when I said that, "What you have not done?" They received me very well. (break) *Altogether about an hour and half. About forty*-five minutes more. What is being done with Hayagrīva's house? I bought that from him. There are a few devotees there right now. No, the other house. Which one? Up at the original farm? No, not original. That's the one I'm talking about. Tulasī ? No, they're just wild flowers. Very nice. Very fragrant. Yes . . . (indistinct) (break) (Prabhupāda is taking prasādam ) There's plenty of milk and ghee. This is human food. They do not know how to eat, the Westerners. (break) . . . ever eat these nice foods they give up so much sinful activity, very easily. Hmm? By just eating nice foods they can give up so much sinful activity. Who has made them? Different devotees—mother Lakhimā, mother . . . (indistinct) Combined effort. Tamāla said this is the only place in the US now they have Vedic cooking. (break) . . . facility to get enough ghee. They have got the chance. Fresh vegetables, everything. (break) Feast? Yes. What did they say after eating these things? (break) . . . Indians come and they always say, "Who has taught you to cook like this?" We tell them, "Śrīla Prabhupāda has taught us everything." At this 26 Second Avenue, Acyutānanda Mahārāja . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Many Indians come? Yes. (break) . . . membership program now. There were about three or four hundred Indians came to the feast yesterday. No, not yesterday; on Sunday. Six hundred. Six hundred. In Toronto? Yes, very big turnout. Big turnout also in Detroit. Same in Detroit. I never realized there were so many Indians all over the world. Generally, they are engaged in education. I know in England they all have responsible jobs. Doctors and like that. There are many medical practitioners, Indians. I have . . . I learned that British people, they like Indian physicians. Oh, yes, they're very popular. They have got faith that these people treat carefully. One civil surgeon is a Bengali in London. Civil surgeon. You have heard this Aurobindo? His father was a medical practitioner in England, and he was born there. His mother was Indian also or . . .? No. (break) Indian families, they are living for two, three generation. (break) . . . teaching them how to make home comfortable, they'll be trained up to become prostitutes. How to kill time. (break) I think Tamāla was saying in New York they need good cooks there. Tamāla was saying that in New York they don't have very good cooks there. Nowhere there is good cook except here. (laughter) Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is good cook. He's trained everybody up very nicely. Prabhupāda knows how to flatter. Well, I think even we could not cook so good in Boston or New York. Without being in Vrindaban and the natural ingredients, it is not so . . . You can supply them ghee. Yes, we can do that. (break) You grow podina ? Podina ? Mint? Mint? Mint? Yes. Chutney. Mint chutney. How do you make mint chutney? I'll teach you. You have got mango? Yes. I'll teach you. Chili? They are not ripe yet. The plants are still too small for this year. They are not giving chili? Not yet. It is too early. In August. But I can get. I can get green chili. (break) . . . something to drink? No. I don't know what happened to that orange juice. Someone else was carrying it. (break) . . . because it is so nice. That is your mercy. So this was my dream, that a place should be there where we can get all nice foods, best foods, of milk. Kṛṣṇa is fulfilling that desire. Everything's there. Simply these rascals, they do not know how to live or to eat. Everything there. Intelligence is there, everything is there. Simply for want of training they have become rogues. Make them human beings, your countrymen. Everyone should follow the duty, materially and spiritually. Anyway . . . here is very nice here, this climate. It is a winter season of . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) These months, June, July, August, up to September? No, actually up to November. The devotees like the winter, though. Oh, yes. It is even more conducive to think of Kṛṣṇa in the winter. So the neighborers, they like it? Neighborhood men? Most of them like us. There are a few that don't like us. But they are not violent. They are a little nasty. Nasty they have been trained up to be. (Sanskrit) Once trained up nastily, it is very difficult to . . . The state police in this local area has become very favorable to us. During that quarantine the state police had to stay there. So they even began to come to ārati . They took our books; they were reading but there's been a lot of change in some of the government. Some of the government men are now much favorable, more understanding. Whatever was there, it was due to misunderstanding. The sheriff is very favorable to us. Eh? The sheriff is very favorable, the judge. That judge that came to see you last time you were here, he still keeps a picture of you in his desk. Oh. When the palace is finished we will have nice ceremonies, and many of the local dignitaries will come. (break) . . . begins? Moundsville is that way about five miles. We are almost to New Vrindavan now. Two miles. Yes. Our post office is Moundsville. Yes. Do you want to go directly to your quarters, or do you want to stop by the temple? Yes, temple. Deities open? Yes. Then . . . (break) Actually it is gradually expanding in these quarters. (break) . . . be on local television soon. That will be very good propaganda for us. Yes. It is shown? Or no, not yet. Not yet. One thing you have missed: how we are preparing all these foodstuff. It was too short. In the movie? It was too short how to prepare it? Yes. How from milk in different stages you get this foodstuff, kachorīs, siṅgāra, sandeśa, rābṛi . And this chānā , if fried, if you prepare nicely with little hing and ginger, then it will exactly taste like meat. They'll forget. If you give them without telling them, they will think that they're eating meat. Hing and what? Prepare with hing and . . .? Ginger. Ginger. They prepare the semiliquid meat like that. You give them little piece and they will not understand that it is not meat. (laughs) When we were in Los Angeles, Pālikā made some barā and it tasted . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja wouldn't eat it. He said it tasted too much like fish. With urad ḍāl , you can prepare fishy taste. Someone told me that your Guru Mahārāja said that . . . (laughs) Yes. Anyone who is not taking urad ḍāl , he must be taking fish silently, secretly. (break) Not on this side, other side. I want to buy that farm there. This barn, Vrindaban. What is this building? They are constructing a . . . I have a big carpenter shop, a construction shop, a printing shop. And upstairs there will be a big hall for Janmāṣṭamī that holds seven, eight hundred people. There is another . . . that's our guesthouse building we're building there. You can see the top two floors, with the arches. What is this? Another barn? This is an ox barn here. No, this. That tank? That tank we are making for grain storage. Oh, much improvement. (end) Conversation A -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA (Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden) Thank you. In . . . (indistinct) . . . this is your palace. Oh! So many . . . (indistinct) Yes. There is no such building in America. (break) These are our workers? Yes, these are your builders here. Bhāgavatānanda Prabhu has done the design. Oh. Very nice. And Ātmabhū Prabhu is the chief construction man. Ātmabhū. Oh, all our men. All our men. It is very nice. Your car will come in here, and you get out and you come right in. And this is the hall? This will be a little hall, and that is the worship room, where we can put your vyāsāsana in there, and you can lecture there, or . . . and we can worship you always there. Hare Kṛṣṇa. But this dome will go up another twelve feet, and four feet from the top there is . . . this lotus flower starts, and this is just one little sample of the kind of casting that will finish it. It will all be done now with smooth plaster. This dome here is being done like this dome, covered with cement. And then where you see these arches are being poured, there will be colored glass windows, stained glass windows. To enter that temple you have to go through here? To enter the Deity room you go through the kitchen. No, generally people will go from this side to see the Deity? No, they will see just from out here. All these walls closed, there is no window. There is no window. Only one window. Four windows on the up. Ventilation. Ventilation? No ventilation. There will be artificial ventilation, fan. Oh. Natural ventilation is prohibited. (laughs) No, these windows can open—air that way. Nice veranda. This will be open like this? Yes. These are rooms? Yes, these will be servants' quarters on this side. This will be window? Yes. This will be a kitchen. Nice, very nice. And there will be garden here? Yes. We are gradually clearing all this land. This was all wooded last year, and we're clearing now. Very nice. This is a very good view, all over our land. Oh, yes. These are your quarters here. This will be your study room, and there will be a wall there. This is your bedroom. These are all marbles? No. Yes, this is all marble. The devotees—you see how the marble is all inlaid on the pieces there—they've done that. Then there will be a dressing room and a bath. Dressing room? Dressing room and bath. Oh. That side? That side. These framework will remain? No, it will be covered with plaster. Then it will be taken away? No. No, no, it remains. It will continue. You have some question about this? This iron is corroding. If it will not hamper. It will be covered. Covered, but now it is corroding. I see what you are saying. Hmm. There will also be . . . there is another door that goes in that wall there, like this, for access to that side. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt ( BG 2.40). Little service in this connection, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can protect one from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya . You are so kind to let us do it. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's desire. White sand, wherefrom you secure? In Ohio, about sixty miles from here. From the seaside? Sea beach? No. No, they call it silica sand. I think it's made from glass. Not glass, it is a kind of stone made powder. Silica sand. They are like sandstone. This is just the first cut, not polished. Now, in this dome you see this is a . . . No, while constructing, filling up this, what is called, column, in Bombay they're putting air so that they become solid stone. You have seen in Bombay? Big engineer, they are giving some pumping air so that while the cement is filled up, it becomes solid. Oh, vibrators. We do that here. We also do that. You have got some machine? Yes. That makes solidified. No voids. Ah, no. Yes. I see, but . . . it appears there is no vacancy. But everything is there, engineering. Engineering process is . . . (indistinct) Yes. And we'll take you down to the gray house down here, we'll show you a few more things, how it's being finished. It is just rough here. What are these pipes? That's for drainage. For when the water goes out in the sewer, and goes out into the field and drains. You can utilize this water for fertilizing, drain water. Well, first of all we have to satisfy the health department. (laughs) (break) . . . wood as fuel so that gradually this jungle will be clear. Thank you very much. Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya ! Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya ! Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! (devotees offer obeisances) (break) (in car) This is sand. It's sand, yes. It's not from our property, but it's gotten locally. It comes out of the river. Everything you had to purchase? Yes. It will be required. For some time, anyway. While we are building so much we need some help. We do not have sufficient manpower. No one is idle. That is wanted. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, you like this? It's very wonderful. (out of car, entering workroom) We have to take our shoes off? It's okay. These are specially made? Yes, special for you, in New York City, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And this is the kind of doors and the stained glass work is being done like this. The marble is being worked like this. This is lead? Yes. Like in the church. Who has done this painting? That is, I think, from India. Oh. *These pictures are rose quartz. This is rose quartz and twenty*-four-carat gold. Gold? (laughter) *Twenty*-four carat. In that Detroit house, so much gold. That is also like this. What are these? This is a sample of the handles. Plumbing? Like those on the doors. Is this gold as well? Brass. Everything special. But we are just śūdras , we don't know how to do anything else. Hare Kṛṣṇa. What for these marbles? That will go on the wall in the bathroom, Italian cremo marble. Here's a picture of how the windows are being done in jāli work. This is being cast out of white cement. Doing here? Yes. This is some of the castings they've done. This goes up on the ceiling. Cornice. Cornice, yes. Then around the top of the building on the outside, there's a railing with these balusters. This is made of cement? No, this one is plaster. This was our first model. But the ones that will be used will be done out of cement. This is very light. Do you have your drawing of the outside? Somebody's staying here? Yes, Bhāgavatānanda and a couple of the other construction members stay here. (break) This is the way it will look when it's finished—the balusters and the brackets supporting the sunshade. (break) *. . . when God is there, within the heart, He'll give you, "Do like this." Buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te (BG 10.10). If one is sincere to serve the Lord, the Lord is situated in everyone's heart, He'll give him, "Do like this." Teṣām evānukampārtham aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ (BG 10.11). It is special favor of God. Even if he's not aware of anything he deviated, He'll give instruction, "Do like this." So there is no scarcity of instruction if one is sincere. Thank you very much. (leaves workshop) (break) . . . I came to your country for preaching this, I had no idea how to do it. (laughs) But things are being model. People are surprised how within a short, so many short years, this world movement has sprung. But I had no idea how to do it. (laughter) *Seeing your palace here is almost like seeing the Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple for the first time. *Yes. In Ramaṇ*-reti there was no temple. Similarly, in this quarter there was no such building. Many people will come to see it. They already do, Prabhupāda. (laughs) Yes, I can understand. Many people come by every week to see what progress has been made. And everybody who drives by, they stop. Yes, it is something wonderful in this quarter. You can drive fifty miles away around here, and they'll stop and ask you about how's the palace coming. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . Changing New Vrindavan. It is already organized, New Vrindavan? Jaya . (break) (in car) . . . little further, I think. We're trying to clear all this now, too. This is ours? Yes. Oh. It takes a long time to clear it, though. Never mind. Do slowly, that is pleasure. Well, we could do it much faster if we didn't try to utilize the wood, but we want to utilize. *Yes. Unnecessarily you should not cut. When it is necessary for Kṛṣṇa, then you cut. This is also living entity. We cannot kill them without any sufficient reason. (sings) Śrī*-kṛṣṇa-caitanya . This is our property? Yes. Oh. This side also. This side. Goes down to that road there. All this land can be utilized, planting. There is some graveyard? Yes. You want to ride any further? No. Harer nāma harer nāma harer (CC Adi 17.21). (break) . . . can be seen in one direction at least a couple of miles away, several, no, three directions. This is the capital that will go in the courtyard here in the main temple . . . the assembly area. On those columns, this will go at the top. Very nice. Thank you. This is plastic? This is what they make the mold from. This one is in plaster. Now they will cast more. Below that they'll be faced with marble. They can do Deity also, they can. Yes, after they've done with your palace they're going to start on some Deities. I think they would like permission to first start with your deity. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (shouting as they pass by) Jaya Prabhupāda. Kulaśekhara is here? Kulaśekhara, yes, he is editing Brijabasi Spirit now. We will put a wall around, and then all nice gardens inside. Cement wall or wooden? No, a combination of masonry and fancy iron so that people can see through. Reinforced. Yes, but also so they can see through at certain points. *Jaya . With sunshine this wood becomes very, very beautiful. Tapo*-vana . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . in this house. Who is staying now? Usually there are devotees that stay there. Right now we are not having anybody stay there. Lord Jagannātha stays there. Oh. Here, in this house? No. What is that? No, Jagannātha stays in that house. (break) . . . are grown here or brought from somewhere else? This was brought from somewhere else because there was nothing here in which to grow it. We can grow it . . . (indistinct) . . . that's why it's so wet right now, very wet. (break) They will do it like this, now it is very nice. Very beautiful. That one girl is taking care, she's doing very nice. We can sit down here? Kulādri, find some more things. Come up this side. As soon as you sit down, everything looks complete. Hmm? (laughs) Where is Pradyumna Mahārāja? He's just inside the house. You'd like him to come out? No. Pālikā, you came before here? Six years ago. There was just that one small, original farm. *Now it is a big property. And when the palace will be ready, many people will . . . you simply advertise, "Come and see palaces in New Vrindavan." It will be a combination of Western and Eastern culture, for the profit of the whole human society. So Vṛndāvana*-candra will come here? No. Vṛndāvana-candra Deity? No. His palace will be different. *His palace will be where the building is now. We're planning to move Him into the new building next to the present temple, the four*-story building. He will occupy the fourth floor for now. Then we will take down that old building and put up a nice big temple. So why you dismantle, construct another? The building is not in such good condition. That's all right. As soon as the new temple is, move it. Or you want to dismantle it? The site is good. Oh, yes, site is good. It will make a nice complex in relationship with the other buildings. That will . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare . We are about to install your mūrti in that temple. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). The Vedic secret is that parā bhaktir , yasya deve , unto the Lord, similarly, to the guru , they, to them, the whole thing becomes revealed automatically. Vedic knowledge is grasped not by erudite scholarship. Mundane scholarship has nothing to do with. The secret is, yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau . My Guru Mahārāja wanted that some books should be published. So I tried my best, and he's giving success more than expectation. In the history nobody has sold religion, philosophical books, in such large quantity. Or quality. *Yes. This is all Guru Mahārāja's blessings. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is stressing on this point, guru*-mukha-padma-vākya , cittete kariyā aikya , āra nā koriha mane āśā . Simply execute that. Kṛṣṇa bhakti . . . kṛṣṇa prāpti haya yāhā haite . You'll get Kṛṣṇa. (long pause) (break) *Govinda, Gopīnātha, Madana Mohana, Śyāmasundara, Rādhā*-Dāmodara, Gokulānanda and . . .? Rādhā-Ramaṇa. These seven temples, Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇava. Then other Vaiṣṇavas came, Raṅganātha, Rāmānuja. (break) . . . devotees from India, we import to develop these quarters, will government allow? I don't think there's as much problem from our government as from the Indian government. Our problem so far has been Indian government. What is the difficulty? If somebody wants to go, migrate in America, what Indian government will do? They won't give them passport. No, no, passport means coming back. But if he's going to domicile, Indian government cannot check. If I want to go somewhere and live there . . . You have to have passport. As far as I know. But passport means if he wants to return. No, in other words, in order to get visa from US, you have to present your passport. Well there are different kinds of visa. Immigration visa. Suppose if anyone wants to migrate in America, our Society here, we give guarantee. I think there will be no . . . No difficulty. We can try. Our Society is here, and we give this man our guarantee for maintenance. So what is the objection? By law there is no objection. And if the Immigration Department allows, "Yes, you can come and live," then where will be . . .? Immigration means that here government should be satisfied that this man is coming, he will have no difficulty; government gives permit. Should be like that, anyway. Yes, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . similarly, you can bring some men from India. We would like that. And they also will be very pleased. In India is now so congested. If they get good . . . especially many East Bengalis who migrate in West Bengal for the troublesome conditions there, they'll be very happy here. You can write to Gopāla to inquire that we require here some Indians to come to help us. Mistris for construction? Mistri or anyone, to develop this Kṛṣṇa culture, so the Society will give guarantee. Why not take permission? And they may not come back. They may reside. I don't understand. That seems to be the government's . . . the Indian government's objection was that they wouldn't come back. So they are disturbed with overpopulation. It doesn't make any sense. But their objection was that they might not come back. But that is good for you, because you are harassed by overpopulation. You cannot feed them even. Why you object? Let them go and live somewhere else peacefully. Just like the Europeans came here. Originally, in America, Europeans came. Because it was overcongested and they got . . . Columbus found this land, enough, and they migrated. So still there is so much land. The Indians are hard workers; *they will develop very nicely. Just like this quarter. If Indians would be allowed, they'll come and make it very nice. In South America they have done. Many Indian cultivators, they have come in remote villages. This cooperation should be. Everything belongs to God. Why a class or community should be congested? Just like China, Japan, India, so much congested. What is this nonsense United Nation doing? What they have done for the last thirty years? No liberal*-minded. Let them propose that wherever there is enough land and wherever there is overpopulation, let them go, and the government give them simply land and let them work and be happy. Why not arrange, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, arrange between these two, United Nation? Why a section of people is rotting in a place and devising some means how to fight with the others and get land? Why? There is no meaning. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). This is our philosophy: Everything belongs to God, and everyone is a son of God; therefore the son of God has the right. Why they should be thrown together and live compulsorily in that rotten place, that in China they are living on the sea? You know that? Taiwan. Thailand, yes. Everywhere. They have no place to live on the land. They build boats and live in the water. Yes. Especially if people are coming for agriculture. Agriculture is the noblest profession. Give him some land, he cuts the wood, makes cottages. The land is clear, now till it, keep cows and grow food grains. Doesn't put any local men out of work, also. Simple thing. And then live comfortably, eat comfortably, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. "Comfortably" does not mean satisfaction of the senses. Comfortably means we require primary necessities: to eat something, to sleep somewhere or have some sex—this is also bodily need—and to defend, that's all. These are the primary necessities. That can be arranged anywhere. God has given all facilities. Grow your own food, eat, and live anywhere. Just this place was rough like that, now it is handled nicely, it is very attractive. Bikale cukale ghar, sajale gochale bor. (If you clean a bad place it will become a home, and if you decorate a dirty person he will become a groom.) Any damn place, you cleanse it, it becomes home. And any nasty man, you decorate him, he becomes a bridegroom. (laughs) Becomes a . . .? Bridegroom. *Bikale cukale ghar, sajale gochale bor. (If you clean a bad place it will become a home, and if you decorate a dirty person he will become a groom.) ( japa ) Let Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement give this sense to these rascals. They do not know how to adjust things. They simply plan their United Nation, but they do not know what is that plan. Yes. United Nation should be . . . first of all, why nation? Why manufacture nation and create trouble and again united? Nation—this word is not there in the Vedic language. There's no conception of nation. There is conception of varṇāśrama , everywhere. Not for any particular nation or any particular country, but everyone, according to quality—first*-class men, second-class men, third-class men. That is there everywhere. Everywhere you go, you find some people first-class intelligent, some people less than him, some people less than him, up to fourth class, that's all. And then fifth class. So everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . Now you try to implement. Perfect human life. Let any sociologist, politician come forward. We shall convince them that this is the only way. Why you are wasting time and barking dogs in the United Nation for the last forty years and doing nothing? What I have said, barking dogs? You have read it? I accused them as barking dogs . . . Melbourne. . . . Melbourne, and they published in the paper. Actually, this is fact. Barking for the last thirty years. Yes. Nobody has criticized them. They have taken it seriously; otherwise, why they have published? Yes, that's right. What they have done except barking? "I am American," "I am Russian," "I am this," "I am that," that's all. If you keep them dogs and hogs and, nicely dressed, they go to United Nation and talk of unity, is it possible? Can the dogs and hogs can unite? Common sense. You bring all the dogs of this neighborhood and ask them, "Don't bark now. Live peacefully," (laughter) will they be able? (laughs) The United Nation is like that. They're kept as dogs, and they're advised, "Now keep peacefully." Is it possible? They have no common sense even. First of all, let them become human beings. Conference is going on, big conference, and our Jawaharlal Nehru has imitated, that in the conference there are different languages, different . . . but if somebody is speaking in any language you'll hear it in your own language. Remember? In New Delhi he has done that. This rascal thought, "Now I am finished, I have done my duty." All rascals. ( japa ) Thus our definition, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's either in these four groups, bās , final. You just try to prove it. Hmm? Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? You have any doubt about it? No. Anyone? Do it very nicely. Push Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement vigorously. ( japa ) If you keep the people in ignorance like dogs and hogs, what is the value of advancement of knowledge? So many universities? ( japa ) But discuss this point, our charge; explain to them, and let someone defend them, someone talking for, and let him decide. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ ? Hmm. Whether this is fact. It is fact, but even if we do not accept it, what is the wrong there, find out. We don't find any wrong, everything. Because Kṛṣṇa said it, then it's all right. Because they will say it is too sectarian, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's the most miscreant, sinful and ass and lowest of the mankind—he has lost his all knowledge. This is our accusation. Now defend. Any gentleman will protest, that "I am such a respectable gentleman, and because I do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then I'll fall among these groups? What is this?" They will say. Now you'll have to prove that, "You are not a gentleman." Gentleman means one who is cultured. So culture is not of the body but of knowledge. But what do you mean by culture? First of all, the question will be, "What do you mean by culture?" There's some idea of progress involved, advancement of life. Otherwise, there's no need for any kind of progress. One remains as a child. Yes. What is that? Culture means advancement in knowledge. We say: "You're a gentleman of culture." That means he's advanced in knowledge. So what is the advancement of knowledge, next question will be. Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna that that was to know that he was factually not his body. Yes, that is advancement of knowledge. Otherwise, what is the difference between this bird and the human being? He's also dancing very jolly, but he has no knowledge that he's not this body. So if the human being also remains falsely jolly, without any knowledge of his existence, then what is the difference between the birds, dogs and human beings? Why we say low grade, animals? He's living in his own way. He has got all the facilities of eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Just you have all the same things. Where is the difference between you and him? Why you say advanced in knowledge? Nowadays they say that they're advanced in knowledge even without any sophistication at all, while Arjuna, when he was giving his arguments to Kṛṣṇa . . . No, don't bring Arjuna now. Just speak on commonsense platform. As soon as we bring Arjuna, they'll think it is sectarian. We are talking on human common sense. What is advancement of knowledge? They say if it's advancement of knowledge, if they are advanced, why do they have to die? The animals are dying, and they're accepting that, and the human beings also die. But why does he have to die if he's advanced in knowledge? Even if you are advanced in knowledge, you still have to die. Advancement of knowledge is to distinguish between what is temporary and what is eternal. Discuss amongst yourselves. They may say, though, that even the human beings, the necessities are there—eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Everyone is doing. What is your advancement of knowledge? The bird is chirping, dancing, they're living, they are sleeping, they have got sex. So everyone is doing. What is your advancement of knowledge? We carry out these activities in relationship with the eternal soul. So that by performing the activities one is gaining knowledge. Yes. Provided you have got the knowledge of the soul, then you are advanced than the birds and beasts. Otherwise, where is the advancement? Athāto brahma jijñāsā . The human being, they can inquire about the spirit soul. These birds, beasts, they cannot. Then we find so many purported religious people, just like Christians, they may say: "Well, I believe in the soul," but nonetheless they are going on with their materialistic civilization. That means you do not know seriously what is soul. You have simply an idea, but you do not know in detail. Just like they say, the Christians, "God is great." But they do not know who is God and what is the meaning of greatness. That they do not know. They accept this theoretically or religious sentimentally, "God is great." Just like your state says: "In God We Trust." As soon as I inquire what kind of trust and to whom, there is no reply. That means they do not know what is God, what is trust. As a matter of slogan they write, that's all—even the state heads, and what to speak of the nonsense ordinary citizens. Seriously taking, it is very important question. They should have replied. But they do not know how to reply. With all of the situations that take place in the material world, they may not be able to see how God is actually active in the material world, that whether there's a war or whether . . . Well, that you should . . . why you should remain in ignorance how God is acting? If you are serious about God, that you must know. Just like a statesman, he knows how government is acting. Ordinary man, he knows government is acting, but he does not know how government is acting. But advanced in knowledge, they know what is the constitution, how the government is acting. That is the difference. Therefore lawyer is appointed when there is some trouble. He can find out where is the defect. That is advancement of . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA (Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden) Thank you. In . . . (indistinct) . . . this is your palace. Oh! So many . . . (indistinct) Yes. There is no such building in America. (break) These are our workers? Yes, these are your builders here. Bhāgavatānanda Prabhu has done the design. Oh. Very nice. And Ātmabhū Prabhu is the chief construction man. Ātmabhū. Oh, all our men. All our men. It is very nice. Your car will come in here, and you get out and you come right in. And this is the hall? This will be a little hall, and that is the worship room, where we can put your vyāsāsana in there, and you can lecture there, or . . . and we can worship you always there. Hare Kṛṣṇa. But this dome will go up another twelve feet, and four feet from the top there is . . . this lotus flower starts, and this is just one little sample of the kind of casting that will finish it. It will all be done now with smooth plaster. This dome here is being done like this dome, covered with cement. And then where you see these arches are being poured, there will be colored glass windows, stained glass windows. To enter that temple you have to go through here? To enter the Deity room you go through the kitchen. No, generally people will go from this side to see the Deity? No, they will see just from out here. All these walls closed, there is no window. There is no window. Only one window. Four windows on the up. Ventilation. Ventilation? No ventilation. There will be artificial ventilation, fan. Oh. Natural ventilation is prohibited. (laughs) No, these windows can open—air that way. Nice veranda. This will be open like this? Yes. These are rooms? Yes, these will be servants' quarters on this side. This will be window? Yes. This will be a kitchen. Nice, very nice. And there will be garden here? Yes. We are gradually clearing all this land. This was all wooded last year, and we're clearing now. Very nice. This is a very good view, all over our land. Oh, yes. These are your quarters here. This will be your study room, and there will be a wall there. This is your bedroom. These are all marbles? No. Yes, this is all marble. The devotees—you see how the marble is all inlaid on the pieces there—they've done that. Then there will be a dressing room and a bath. Dressing room? Dressing room and bath. Oh. That side? That side. These framework will remain? No, it will be covered with plaster. Then it will be taken away? No. No, no, it remains. It will continue. You have some question about this? This iron is corroding. If it will not hamper. It will be covered. Covered, but now it is corroding. I see what you are saying. Hmm. There will also be . . . there is another door that goes in that wall there, like this, for access to that side. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt ( BG 2.40). Little service in this connection, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can protect one from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya . You are so kind to let us do it. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's desire. White sand, wherefrom you secure? In Ohio, about sixty miles from here. From the seaside? Sea beach? No. No, they call it silica sand. I think it's made from glass. Not glass, it is a kind of stone made powder. Silica sand. They are like sandstone. This is just the first cut, not polished. Now, in this dome you see this is a . . . No, while constructing, filling up this, what is called, column, in Bombay they're putting air so that they become solid stone. You have seen in Bombay? Big engineer, they are giving some pumping air so that while the cement is filled up, it becomes solid. Oh, vibrators. We do that here. We also do that. You have got some machine? Yes. That makes solidified. No voids. Ah, no. Yes. I see, but . . . it appears there is no vacancy. But everything is there, engineering. Engineering process is . . . (indistinct) Yes. And we'll take you down to the gray house down here, we'll show you a few more things, how it's being finished. It is just rough here. What are these pipes? That's for drainage. For when the water goes out in the sewer, and goes out into the field and drains. You can utilize this water for fertilizing, drain water. Well, first of all we have to satisfy the health department. (laughs) (break) . . . wood as fuel so that gradually this jungle will be clear. Thank you very much. Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya ! Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya ! Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! (devotees offer obeisances) (break) (in car) This is sand. It's sand, yes. It's not from our property, but it's gotten locally. It comes out of the river. Everything you had to purchase? Yes. It will be required. For some time, anyway. While we are building so much we need some help. We do not have sufficient manpower. No one is idle. That is wanted. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, you like this? It's very wonderful. (out of car, entering workroom) We have to take our shoes off? It's okay. These are specially made? Yes, special for you, in New York City, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And this is the kind of doors and the stained glass work is being done like this. The marble is being worked like this. This is lead? Yes. Like in the church. Who has done this painting? That is, I think, from India. Oh. *These pictures are rose quartz. This is rose quartz and twenty*-four-carat gold. Gold? (laughter) *Twenty*-four carat. In that Detroit house, so much gold. That is also like this. What are these? This is a sample of the handles. Plumbing? Like those on the doors. Is this gold as well? Brass. Everything special. But we are just śūdras , we don't know how to do anything else. Hare Kṛṣṇa. What for these marbles? That will go on the wall in the bathroom, Italian cremo marble. Here's a picture of how the windows are being done in jāli work. This is being cast out of white cement. Doing here? Yes. This is some of the castings they've done. This goes up on the ceiling. Cornice. Cornice, yes. Then around the top of the building on the outside, there's a railing with these balusters. This is made of cement? No, this one is plaster. This was our first model. But the ones that will be used will be done out of cement. This is very light. Do you have your drawing of the outside? Somebody's staying here? Yes, Bhāgavatānanda and a couple of the other construction members stay here. (break) This is the way it will look when it's finished—the balusters and the brackets supporting the sunshade. (break) *. . . when God is there, within the heart, He'll give you, "Do like this." Buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te (BG 10.10). If one is sincere to serve the Lord, the Lord is situated in everyone's heart, He'll give him, "Do like this." Teṣām evānukampārtham aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ (BG 10.11). It is special favor of God. Even if he's not aware of anything he deviated, He'll give instruction, "Do like this." So there is no scarcity of instruction if one is sincere. Thank you very much. (leaves workshop) (break) . . . I came to your country for preaching this, I had no idea how to do it. (laughs) But things are being model. People are surprised how within a short, so many short years, this world movement has sprung. But I had no idea how to do it. (laughter) *Seeing your palace here is almost like seeing the Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple for the first time. *Yes. In Ramaṇ*-reti there was no temple. Similarly, in this quarter there was no such building. Many people will come to see it. They already do, Prabhupāda. (laughs) Yes, I can understand. Many people come by every week to see what progress has been made. And everybody who drives by, they stop. Yes, it is something wonderful in this quarter. You can drive fifty miles away around here, and they'll stop and ask you about how's the palace coming. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . Changing New Vrindavan. It is already organized, New Vrindavan? Jaya . (break) (in car) . . . little further, I think. We're trying to clear all this now, too. This is ours? Yes. Oh. It takes a long time to clear it, though. Never mind. Do slowly, that is pleasure. Well, we could do it much faster if we didn't try to utilize the wood, but we want to utilize. *Yes. Unnecessarily you should not cut. When it is necessary for Kṛṣṇa, then you cut. This is also living entity. We cannot kill them without any sufficient reason. (sings) Śrī*-kṛṣṇa-caitanya . This is our property? Yes. Oh. This side also. This side. Goes down to that road there. All this land can be utilized, planting. There is some graveyard? Yes. You want to ride any further? No. Harer nāma harer nāma harer (CC Adi 17.21). (break) . . . can be seen in one direction at least a couple of miles away, several, no, three directions. This is the capital that will go in the courtyard here in the main temple . . . the assembly area. On those columns, this will go at the top. Very nice. Thank you. This is plastic? This is what they make the mold from. This one is in plaster. Now they will cast more. Below that they'll be faced with marble. They can do Deity also, they can. Yes, after they've done with your palace they're going to start on some Deities. I think they would like permission to first start with your deity. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (shouting as they pass by) Jaya Prabhupāda. Kulaśekhara is here? Kulaśekhara, yes, he is editing Brijabasi Spirit now. We will put a wall around, and then all nice gardens inside. Cement wall or wooden? No, a combination of masonry and fancy iron so that people can see through. Reinforced. Yes, but also so they can see through at certain points. *Jaya . With sunshine this wood becomes very, very beautiful. Tapo*-vana . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . in this house. Who is staying now? Usually there are devotees that stay there. Right now we are not having anybody stay there. Lord Jagannātha stays there. Oh. Here, in this house? No. What is that? No, Jagannātha stays in that house. (break) . . . are grown here or brought from somewhere else? This was brought from somewhere else because there was nothing here in which to grow it. We can grow it . . . (indistinct) . . . that's why it's so wet right now, very wet. (break) They will do it like this, now it is very nice. Very beautiful. That one girl is taking care, she's doing very nice. We can sit down here? Kulādri, find some more things. Come up this side. As soon as you sit down, everything looks complete. Hmm? (laughs) Where is Pradyumna Mahārāja? He's just inside the house. You'd like him to come out? No. Pālikā, you came before here? Six years ago. There was just that one small, original farm. *Now it is a big property. And when the palace will be ready, many people will . . . you simply advertise, "Come and see palaces in New Vrindavan." It will be a combination of Western and Eastern culture, for the profit of the whole human society. So Vṛndāvana*-candra will come here? No. Vṛndāvana-candra Deity? No. His palace will be different. *His palace will be where the building is now. We're planning to move Him into the new building next to the present temple, the four*-story building. He will occupy the fourth floor for now. Then we will take down that old building and put up a nice big temple. So why you dismantle, construct another? The building is not in such good condition. That's all right. As soon as the new temple is, move it. Or you want to dismantle it? The site is good. Oh, yes, site is good. It will make a nice complex in relationship with the other buildings. That will . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare . We are about to install your mūrti in that temple. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). The Vedic secret is that parā bhaktir , yasya deve , unto the Lord, similarly, to the guru , they, to them, the whole thing becomes revealed automatically. Vedic knowledge is grasped not by erudite scholarship. Mundane scholarship has nothing to do with. The secret is, yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau . My Guru Mahārāja wanted that some books should be published. So I tried my best, and he's giving success more than expectation. In the history nobody has sold religion, philosophical books, in such large quantity. Or quality. *Yes. This is all Guru Mahārāja's blessings. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is stressing on this point, guru*-mukha-padma-vākya , cittete kariyā aikya , āra nā koriha mane āśā . Simply execute that. Kṛṣṇa bhakti . . . kṛṣṇa prāpti haya yāhā haite . You'll get Kṛṣṇa. (long pause) (break) *Govinda, Gopīnātha, Madana Mohana, Śyāmasundara, Rādhā*-Dāmodara, Gokulānanda and . . .? Rādhā-Ramaṇa. These seven temples, Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇava. Then other Vaiṣṇavas came, Raṅganātha, Rāmānuja. (break) . . . devotees from India, we import to develop these quarters, will government allow? I don't think there's as much problem from our government as from the Indian government. Our problem so far has been Indian government. What is the difficulty? If somebody wants to go, migrate in America, what Indian government will do? They won't give them passport. No, no, passport means coming back. But if he's going to domicile, Indian government cannot check. If I want to go somewhere and live there . . . You have to have passport. As far as I know. But passport means if he wants to return. No, in other words, in order to get visa from US, you have to present your passport. Well there are different kinds of visa. Immigration visa. Suppose if anyone wants to migrate in America, our Society here, we give guarantee. I think there will be no . . . No difficulty. We can try. Our Society is here, and we give this man our guarantee for maintenance. So what is the objection? By law there is no objection. And if the Immigration Department allows, "Yes, you can come and live," then where will be . . .? Immigration means that here government should be satisfied that this man is coming, he will have no difficulty; government gives permit. Should be like that, anyway. Yes, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . similarly, you can bring some men from India. We would like that. And they also will be very pleased. In India is now so congested. If they get good . . . especially many East Bengalis who migrate in West Bengal for the troublesome conditions there, they'll be very happy here. You can write to Gopāla to inquire that we require here some Indians to come to help us. Mistris for construction? Mistri or anyone, to develop this Kṛṣṇa culture, so the Society will give guarantee. Why not take permission? And they may not come back. They may reside. I don't understand. That seems to be the government's . . . the Indian government's objection was that they wouldn't come back. So they are disturbed with overpopulation. It doesn't make any sense. But their objection was that they might not come back. But that is good for you, because you are harassed by overpopulation. You cannot feed them even. Why you object? Let them go and live somewhere else peacefully. Just like the Europeans came here. Originally, in America, Europeans came. Because it was overcongested and they got . . . Columbus found this land, enough, and they migrated. So still there is so much land. The Indians are hard workers; *they will develop very nicely. Just like this quarter. If Indians would be allowed, they'll come and make it very nice. In South America they have done. Many Indian cultivators, they have come in remote villages. This cooperation should be. Everything belongs to God. Why a class or community should be congested? Just like China, Japan, India, so much congested. What is this nonsense United Nation doing? What they have done for the last thirty years? No liberal*-minded. Let them propose that wherever there is enough land and wherever there is overpopulation, let them go, and the government give them simply land and let them work and be happy. Why not arrange, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, arrange between these two, United Nation? Why a section of people is rotting in a place and devising some means how to fight with the others and get land? Why? There is no meaning. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). This is our philosophy: Everything belongs to God, and everyone is a son of God; therefore the son of God has the right. Why they should be thrown together and live compulsorily in that rotten place, that in China they are living on the sea? You know that? Taiwan. Thailand, yes. Everywhere. They have no place to live on the land. They build boats and live in the water. Yes. Especially if people are coming for agriculture. Agriculture is the noblest profession. Give him some land, he cuts the wood, makes cottages. The land is clear, now till it, keep cows and grow food grains. Doesn't put any local men out of work, also. Simple thing. And then live comfortably, eat comfortably, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. "Comfortably" does not mean satisfaction of the senses. Comfortably means we require primary necessities: to eat something, to sleep somewhere or have some sex—this is also bodily need—and to defend, that's all. These are the primary necessities. That can be arranged anywhere. God has given all facilities. Grow your own food, eat, and live anywhere. Just this place was rough like that, now it is handled nicely, it is very attractive. Bikale cukale ghar, sajale gochale bor. (If you clean a bad place it will become a home, and if you decorate a dirty person he will become a groom.) Any damn place, you cleanse it, it becomes home. And any nasty man, you decorate him, he becomes a bridegroom. (laughs) Becomes a . . .? Bridegroom. *Bikale cukale ghar, sajale gochale bor. (If you clean a bad place it will become a home, and if you decorate a dirty person he will become a groom.) ( japa ) Let Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement give this sense to these rascals. They do not know how to adjust things. They simply plan their United Nation, but they do not know what is that plan. Yes. United Nation should be . . . first of all, why nation? Why manufacture nation and create trouble and again united? Nation—this word is not there in the Vedic language. There's no conception of nation. There is conception of varṇāśrama , everywhere. Not for any particular nation or any particular country, but everyone, according to quality—first*-class men, second-class men, third-class men. That is there everywhere. Everywhere you go, you find some people first-class intelligent, some people less than him, some people less than him, up to fourth class, that's all. And then fifth class. So everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . Now you try to implement. Perfect human life. Let any sociologist, politician come forward. We shall convince them that this is the only way. Why you are wasting time and barking dogs in the United Nation for the last forty years and doing nothing? What I have said, barking dogs? You have read it? I accused them as barking dogs . . . Melbourne. . . . Melbourne, and they published in the paper. Actually, this is fact. Barking for the last thirty years. Yes. Nobody has criticized them. They have taken it seriously; otherwise, why they have published? Yes, that's right. What they have done except barking? "I am American," "I am Russian," "I am this," "I am that," that's all. If you keep them dogs and hogs and, nicely dressed, they go to United Nation and talk of unity, is it possible? Can the dogs and hogs can unite? Common sense. You bring all the dogs of this neighborhood and ask them, "Don't bark now. Live peacefully," (laughter) will they be able? (laughs) The United Nation is like that. They're kept as dogs, and they're advised, "Now keep peacefully." Is it possible? They have no common sense even. First of all, let them become human beings. Conference is going on, big conference, and our Jawaharlal Nehru has imitated, that in the conference there are different languages, different . . . but if somebody is speaking in any language you'll hear it in your own language. Remember? In New Delhi he has done that. This rascal thought, "Now I am finished, I have done my duty." All rascals. ( japa ) Thus our definition, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's either in these four groups, bās , final. You just try to prove it. Hmm? Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? You have any doubt about it? No. Anyone? Do it very nicely. Push Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement vigorously. ( japa ) If you keep the people in ignorance like dogs and hogs, what is the value of advancement of knowledge? So many universities? ( japa ) But discuss this point, our charge; explain to them, and let someone defend them, someone talking for, and let him decide. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ ? Hmm. Whether this is fact. It is fact, but even if we do not accept it, what is the wrong there, find out. We don't find any wrong, everything. Because Kṛṣṇa said it, then it's all right. Because they will say it is too sectarian, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's the most miscreant, sinful and ass and lowest of the mankind—he has lost his all knowledge. This is our accusation. Now defend. Any gentleman will protest, that "I am such a respectable gentleman, and because I do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then I'll fall among these groups? What is this?" They will say. Now you'll have to prove that, "You are not a gentleman." Gentleman means one who is cultured. So culture is not of the body but of knowledge. But what do you mean by culture? First of all, the question will be, "What do you mean by culture?" There's some idea of progress involved, advancement of life. Otherwise, there's no need for any kind of progress. One remains as a child. Yes. What is that? Culture means advancement in knowledge. We say: "You're a gentleman of culture." That means he's advanced in knowledge. So what is the advancement of knowledge, next question will be. Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna that that was to know that he was factually not his body. Yes, that is advancement of knowledge. Otherwise, what is the difference between this bird and the human being? He's also dancing very jolly, but he has no knowledge that he's not this body. So if the human being also remains falsely jolly, without any knowledge of his existence, then what is the difference between the birds, dogs and human beings? Why we say low grade, animals? He's living in his own way. He has got all the facilities of eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Just you have all the same things. Where is the difference between you and him? Why you say advanced in knowledge? Nowadays they say that they're advanced in knowledge even without any sophistication at all, while Arjuna, when he was giving his arguments to Kṛṣṇa . . . No, don't bring Arjuna now. Just speak on commonsense platform. As soon as we bring Arjuna, they'll think it is sectarian. We are talking on human common sense. What is advancement of knowledge? They say if it's advancement of knowledge, if they are advanced, why do they have to die? The animals are dying, and they're accepting that, and the human beings also die. But why does he have to die if he's advanced in knowledge? Even if you are advanced in knowledge, you still have to die. Advancement of knowledge is to distinguish between what is temporary and what is eternal. Discuss amongst yourselves. They may say, though, that even the human beings, the necessities are there—eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Everyone is doing. What is your advancement of knowledge? The bird is chirping, dancing, they're living, they are sleeping, they have got sex. So everyone is doing. What is your advancement of knowledge? We carry out these activities in relationship with the eternal soul. So that by performing the activities one is gaining knowledge. Yes. Provided you have got the knowledge of the soul, then you are advanced than the birds and beasts. Otherwise, where is the advancement? Athāto brahma jijñāsā . The human being, they can inquire about the spirit soul. These birds, beasts, they cannot. Then we find so many purported religious people, just like Christians, they may say: "Well, I believe in the soul," but nonetheless they are going on with their materialistic civilization. That means you do not know seriously what is soul. You have simply an idea, but you do not know in detail. Just like they say, the Christians, "God is great." But they do not know who is God and what is the meaning of greatness. That they do not know. They accept this theoretically or religious sentimentally, "God is great." Just like your state says: "In God We Trust." As soon as I inquire what kind of trust and to whom, there is no reply. That means they do not know what is God, what is trust. As a matter of slogan they write, that's all—even the state heads, and what to speak of the nonsense ordinary citizens. Seriously taking, it is very important question. They should have replied. But they do not know how to reply. With all of the situations that take place in the material world, they may not be able to see how God is actually active in the material world, that whether there's a war or whether . . . Well, that you should . . . why you should remain in ignorance how God is acting? If you are serious about God, that you must know. Just like a statesman, he knows how government is acting. Ordinary man, he knows government is acting, but he does not know how government is acting. But advanced in knowledge, they know what is the constitution, how the government is acting. That is the difference. Therefore lawyer is appointed when there is some trouble. He can find out where is the defect. That is advancement of . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- June 23, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA (Garden Conversation) *. . .production of it's external. Bahir*-aṅga-śakti. But the śakti, the energy, is coming from the Supreme. Just like here we find this place is shadow and that place is sunshine. Both these places are due to the sun. When there is no sun, there is no such distinction that "This is shining, sunny, and this is shadow." So this distinction is there so long we do not know the real source. But if we know the real source, we can understand that this distinction is temporary. Actually the energy is coming from the Supreme. So shadow has come from Supreme, and light has also come from the Supreme. So there is no distinction, ultimately. Just like earring, golden, manufactured from gold, and the gold which is not manufactured. So this distinction—manufactured or not manufactured, secondary. But really the earring is also gold, and the lump of gold is also gold. So why should we say that earring is false? It is also gold. In relationship with the supreme source, janmādy asya yataḥ ( SB 1.1.1), there is no such distinction. *In another place, while Vyāsadeva was instructed by Nārada, he said, idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaro (SB 1.5.20). This viśva, the virāṭ*-rūpa, is also Bhagavān, but it appears different from Him. Just like the shadow appears different from the sunshine, but actually, taking the central point of emanation, it is different manifestation. That's all. Tree—there are so many varieties. One is trunk, one is branch, one is twig, one is leaf, one is . . . So the varieties are there, but the tree is one, the root. So ultimately there is no variety; *only one. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). The difference is the Māyāvādīs, they abruptly say everything is one. Not everything is one. The trunk is not one with the leaf, but ultimately, because the root is the cause, so there is no difference between the trunk and the leaf. This is acintya*-bhedābheda philosophy, simultaneously one and different. On the whole, everything is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why should we think this world is mithyā when it is created by God? Does God create anything false? No. When it is created by God . . . When we think that "I create some business, some factory, that is my pleasure," but if somebody else thinks it, it is for his pleasure, that is māyā. The world is created by God, He has got some motive, so if the world, cosmic manifestation, is utilized for His purpose, then it is spiritual. Otherwise, it is material. *In the Seventh Canto, the second volume, the first chapter in that volume, Prahlāda Mahārāja is talking how the studying of the three Vedas is external and it includes knowledge, though, of education and self*-realization, but he considers it material because it is external study of the Vedas. I don't understand that. Anything external is material. *Self*-realization is included in that list of education and self-realization and other items. *Yes, self*-realization, simply understanding "I am not this matter," is also external because there is chance of falldown. But when you are actually engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is positive platform of self-realization. Just like the brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Brahmeti. *Different stages of self*-realization. (pause) Today there is no wind at all. Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we explain that our activity is spiritual, what we are doing is spiritual . . . Just like we say the quality of the tape recorder becomes spiritualized when it's used in Kṛṣṇa's service. So the materialists, they don't understand. They say, "Well, the tape recorder will also break, the tapes will also be burned up sometimes." That's all right. It will go to Kṛṣṇa. Breaking, where it will go? Hmm? Well they say the chemicals again become . . . That chemical, where it will go? Yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante yasmin saṁviśanti (Taittirīya Upaniṣad 3.1). Everything is created from Kṛṣṇa, again it returns to Kṛṣṇa. Then they say then we needn't play Kṛṣṇa conscious music. We might as well play rock and roll if it is going back to Kṛṣṇa. *That is māyā. This is meant for Kṛṣṇa's service. As soon as you do anything else, then it is māyā. Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā (BG 7.14). Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's. But under māyā we suffer; under Kṛṣṇa we enjoy. So if we engage everything here in Kṛṣṇa's service, then the atmosphere will change. Yes. They can notice the change in the atmosphere. *That is real atmosphere. Sva*-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). Mukti means to stay in the original form. Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've heard that you use the example that spirit has form and therefore the body also has similar form, just as a hand has a form in a glove, it's the hand's similar form. So how can we understand that the trees have a certain form? That . . . is there spirit in the form of a tree? Yes. Then how do we explain the transmigration of the soul? This outward is a form. What is the difficulty? (to devotees) Discuss. Just as this human body has a human form, we say that because this body has a form, the soul also must have form. So? Talking about the transmigration, then. Just as the glove has a certain form because the hand is shaped like that, the material body of a human has that form because the spirit is in that form? And the tree has that form because the spirit is in that form? Here difficulty is that the form is fixed up. That is not . . . Just like Kṛṣṇa appears in so many forms; everything is spiritual. So what do you think? So the form in the spiritual sky is not absolute either? We can take different forms in the spiritual sky? Yes, there are also many forms, but all of them are spiritual, the Vṛndāvana. There is tree, there is Yamunā water, there is land, there is cow, there is calf, there is gopas, gopīs—they are all spiritual. Just like from earth you make many forms, but they are earth. You make pots, you make dolls, but they are all earth. Similarly, spiritual world, there are many forms, they are all spiritual. What is the difficulty? Does that form ever change? That form changes also? Yes. Kṛṣṇa is young, and then He's a little older. Generally, it does not change, if one likes this type of form. Śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vātsalya, mādhurya. That change is available to anyone to progress from śānta to dāsya? That change is not material change. The spiritual bliss is there, either in this form or that form. Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that if we serve Kṛṣṇa we will enjoy, and if we serve māyā then we suffer. How can we get over our desire to serve māyā and enjoy separately from Kṛṣṇa? Hmm? Says in the material world when we try to enjoy, we suffer. When we try to enjoy we suffer? Then how will we get over our desire? And when we serve Kṛṣṇa, we become happy. But how will we get over our desire to serve māyā? The attachment is strong. Hmm? He says how will we get over the desire to serve māyā, to try to enjoy ourselves in this material world? Serve Kṛṣṇa. *It says here that yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). One obtaining this actual service of Kṛṣṇa, when one tastes the service of Kṛṣṇa, then he sees any other gain, he does not consider anything else. "Established thus, one never departs from the truth, and upon gaining this he thinks there is no greater gain." So when you actually taste the service of Kṛṣṇa, then you won't consider anything else to be worthy of your effort. But when we do think something else to be worthy of our effort then it means that we haven't . . . we're not really becoming advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We're not developing. We should try to develop to that point. We have to develop. Prabhupāda says this is the test of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you will not want to depart from Kṛṣṇa consciousness to enjoy himself in material nature. And when one still wants to do that, that means he hasn't advanced to that point of stability in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dṛḍha*-vrata, who's completely fixed in his service. Avasthitiḥ. Yatra sthito na calati. When one is situated there, he doesn't depart from there, he doesn't want to go out from there. So we have to reach that point. So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if at this platform we are not yet . . . we are still desiring to depart from Kṛṣṇa's service and enjoy, then we are not . . . we have not yet tasted devotional service, what is it that we have tasted that is keeping us temporarily connected to Kṛṣṇa? That is the Vedic injunction: You keep yourself connected with Kṛṣṇa, then you will develop the taste. Just like a jaundice patient does not taste sugar as sweet, but if he continues to take sugar candy, then he will have the real taste for sugar candy—sweet, not bitter. So he has to continue to eat sugar candy continually. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam. Then he'll have the taste. But the patient must be intelligent to keep . . . Even though he does not want . . . Patient is always rascal, fool. You cannot expect him to be intelligent. He must agree to the physician's direction. That is intelligence. He must know that he's diseased, he must follow the instruction of the physician. That much will help him. Unless one is rascal, he does not fall sick. As soon as you violate the hygienic principles, you become sick. All commit sinful activities on account of ignorance. So therefore the best advancement of civilization is not to open hospitals, but to give them a lesson that they may not fall sick and go to hospital. That is real . . . But they do not know. They keep the mass of people in ignorance, they fall sick and they come to hospital, and number of hospitals increase—they think it is advancement. This is their idea. So even the Christian, religious persons, they also open hospital to give relief to the patient. So that is not the program. The program is why he should fall sick and come to the hospital? Precaution is better than cure. One comes to the hospital for cure, but why not take the precaution so that he may not have to come to the hospital for cure? That is Vedic civilization. They have different prescribed rules and regulations so that a person may not fall sick. The modern idea is that "Let them fall sick; *we have got hospitals and treat him, and he'll be cured." But he is cured, again he falls sick. That is going on. They have no program for precaution. They have program for cure. But actually, precaution is better than cure. We are taking precaution. So other fools, rascals, they are thinking, "What these people are doing? They have no hospital, they have no this program, that," according to them. Just like our Vivekananda, he prescribed daridra*-nārāyaṇa-sevā. The same thing—hospital. We kill all animals, and the hospital patient is given the meat for improvement of the health. But he does not know that this is not curing; *he is become implicated in his karma. He has to be killed again, and eaten by the other animals. That he does not know. They do not accept karma*-phala. Hmm? The result of fruitive activities, they do not accept. But you have to accept. There is no excuse. If you contaminate some disease, you must suffer from that disease. There is no excuse. *So kriyā*-karma, you have to enjoy or suffer the result of karma. Karma-bandhana. But when you act for Kṛṣṇa, then you are mukta. Yajñārthāt karma anyatra karma (BG 3.9). Karma must be there. If you act for Kṛṣṇa, then it is all right, and if you act for your sense gratification, then there is bondage. If you do not take education, if you remain fools and rascals, then you will suffer and create disturbance for others also. Therefore everyone must be educated, good citizens. It is good for him, good for others. (long pause) So you go on reading. Translation: "One should engage oneself in the practice of yoga with undeviating determination and faith. One should abandon, without exception, all material desires born of false ego and thus control all the senses on all sides by the mind." *Purport: "The yoga practitioner should be determined and should patiently prosecute the practice without deviation. One should be sure of success at the end and pursue this course with great perseverance, not becoming discouraged if there is any delay in the attainment of success. Success is sure for the rigid practitioner. Regarding bhakti*-yoga, Rūpa Gosvāmī says: *'The process of bhakti*-yoga can be executed successfully with full-hearted enthusiasm, perseverance and determination by following the prescribed duties in the association of devotees and by engaging completely in activities of goodness.' As for determination, one should follow the example of the sparrow who lost her eggs in the waves of the ocean. A sparrow laid her eggs on the shore of the ocean, but the big ocean carried away the eggs on its waves. The sparrow became very upset and asked the ocean to return her eggs. The ocean did not even consider her appeal. So the sparrow decided to dry up the ocean. She began to pick out the water in her small beak, and everyone laughed at her for her impossible determination. The news of her activity spread, and at last Garuḍa, the gigantic bird carrier of Lord Viṣṇu, heard it. He became compassionate toward his small sister bird, and so he came to see the sparrow. Garuḍa was very pleased by the determination of the small sparrow, and he promised to help. Thus Garuḍa at once asked the ocean to return her eggs lest he himself take up the work of the sparrow. The ocean was frightened at this, and returned the eggs. Thus the sparrow became happy by the grace of Garuḍa. Similarly, the practice of yoga, especially bhakti-yoga in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, may appear to be a very difficult job, but if anyone follows the principles with great determination, the Lord will surely help, for God helps those who help themselves." Now, questions? Any questions? So is there ever, for someone whose determination wavers and slackens here and there, is there ever a point where the neophyte devotee is in danger of just forgetting everything and falling, tumbling completely backwards? *Everyone is neophyte. He should practice determination, that's all. If he cannot practice, then why should he enter into this association? Let him remain aloof. One who has entered with the determination that "I must practice," so if he cannot practice, then why this make*-show that "I belong to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. I am initiated." Why this farce? He must practice with determination, that "By practicing I'll be success." That is wanted. He has no determination, why should he make a show? Dṛḍha-vrata. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28). Dṛḍha-vrata, that is wanted, determination. Hmm, go on. When one is determined, his success is assured. If he's not determined, then success or failure. Can one develop determination gradually? *Why gradually? When you promise before your spiritual master that no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating, why should you fall down? If you have no determination, why should you promise in presence of the Deity, fire, spiritual master, Vaiṣṇava? Why do you make this farce, if you have no determination? If you want to make it a farce, that depends on you. But you should not. When we make that promise . . . *Yes, you should not fall down. That is determination. That is gentleman's determination, that "I have given my promise. Why shall I fall down?" That is determination. "I must respect promise." That is called dṛḍha*-vrata. So he'll success. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we want to cheat, that is another thing. If we have no determination, we should not take up this life. Therefore, chance is given that "Stay with us for six months or one year, be determined. Then be initiated." If you are not determined, what is the use of false initiation? Sometimes this weakness seems to be . . . Weakness there . . . You should rectify weakness. Why you should give any importance to weakness? Weakness is weakness. Rectify it. This promise is the minimum determination. Hmm? This promise of following four regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds daily, that is the minimum determination. Then, from there, he must increase. *Initiation means minimum, just beginning. That is the dictionary meaning, initiation. In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta there is a verse, *(to Pradyumna) Explain it. You understand? Śraddhā, śabde, viśvāsa, sudṛḍha, niścaya. Kṛṣṇe, bhakti, kaile, sarva*-karma, kṛta, haya. The word śraddhā means faith. So by the word faith, we need firm determination or conviction, śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya. Viśvāsa means faith which is sudṛḍha, very . . . sudṛḍha, dṛḍha means firm, and sudṛḍha means very firmly. Niścaya. Niścaya is used here also, sa niścayena yoktavyaḥ. Yoga is to be engaged in, applied with firm . . . Faith. Niścaya means conviction. Conviction. Kṛṣṇe . . . Bhakti kaile. *Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva kṛta*-karma. *Sarva*-karma kṛta haya. *Sarva*-karma kṛta haya. And if one engages, if one performs service to Kṛṣṇa, then everything else becomes accomplished? Yes. Everything else becomes accomplished. If one renders service to Kṛṣṇa, then automatically everything else . . . one has no obligations to the material world. *Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa will say, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66)? Because by that action everything will be done. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. That means He is cheating? There are so many other occupations, say, veda-dharma, samāja-dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, medical dharma, lawyer dharma. You can manufacture so many occupations. Dharma means occupational duties. But if you take only one occupational duty—to serve Kṛṣṇa—all things will be included. Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is instruction. So to accept this principle means firm determination, firm conviction: "Yes, if I serve Kṛṣṇa, then all my other duties will be automatically done." This is firm conviction. "By one stroke, I'll kill so many birds." *Anartha*-nivṛtti? Hmm? *Rūpa Gosvāmī says bhajana*-kriyā and then anārtha-nivṛtti. Then all the unwanted things go away. *First of all, beginning with kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva*-karma kṛta haya. So bhakti, beginning is ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅga bhajana-kriyā anartha-nivṛttiḥ (CC Madhya 23.14). The material world means simply creating unnecessary duties. Simply anartha. Any material activities, you take, analyze, it is simply useless. Therefore they are called anartha. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Take for example we say no meat-eating. So what is the difficulty there? I have seen in the airplane, they eat meat, a little piece, not a lump. But because everyone is eating little, little, we require huge number of slaughterhouses. But if one decides, "I have got so many preparations to eat, so why shall I eat little meat? . . . (indistinct) . . . I shall forego," immediately he is saved from so many sinful activities. It is not that he will die if he does not eat a little piece of meat, he will die. He'll not die. We are not dying, and we don't take. So similarly everyone, without eating meat, he can live very nicely. In the whole principle, there is no difficulty. *So on this whole principle this whole world is merged into sinful activities. That is called unnecessary. That is material position—unnecessarily creating trouble. There is no necessity. But on account of ignorance, foolish association, sinful life, more and more and more and more going on. Andhā yathāndhair upagīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And the leaders encouraging: "Yes, you do this. Enjoy life." What is his enjoyment? If anyone sees slaughterhouse, will he enjoy? Hmm? What is . . .? He visits a slaughterhouse, is it enjoyment? But he takes as enjoyment. This is anartha: unnecessary, without any meaning. Mad, just like a madman acts, without any meaning. The monkey acts without any meaning. This is called anartha: unnecessarily creating disturbance. Anartha. . . . anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). If you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all anartha will be finished. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. We are no more interested in unnecessary things. Illicit sex—one side they are encouraging contraceptive method. So why they'll not stop illicit sex, then automatically there is contraceptive method? So one side there is encouraged, contraceptive method, another, unlimited, unrestricted sex. This is their civilization. Why not teach him not to practice illicit sex? Then everything is done automatically. There's no need of contraceptive method. If one is trained up to indulge in sex only for begetting nice children, there is already contraceptive method. There is no necessity of unnecessarily producing cats and dogs children. *So that requires training, determination. So śāstra says you should not become father if you cannot train up your children to save him from death. Who is the father who's training? To save him from the cycle of birth and death means to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if you are not yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, how you can train up your children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? This is determination, that "If I cannot train my children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and thus avoid the botheration of birth and death, I shall not have sex." That determination will save so many troubles. That can be done by practice. By engaging the mind in Kṛṣṇa, it is possible. The more you advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll lose interest in this sex life. In Vaikuṇṭha there is no sex life because the sex pleasure is not the foremost pleasure in the Vaikuṇṭhaloka. The sex pleasure is foremost here in this material world. They have got so much transcendental spiritual pleasure, this sex pleasure—they are astonished: is that pleasure? Phu! (makes spitting sound) Yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāma . . . (Yāmunācārya). That stage is possible. Still there are so many brahmacārīs. So everything depends on practice. Abhyāsa yoga-yuktena (BG 8.8). That requires determination. (aside) Where did you go, to take bath? This house just across. There is water? Well? No. There are barrels there, filling them daily. Oh. Why not well? Have a big well? They are getting water also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from this well. Your well is also going to that side. Yes. Have several wells in all places. That is nice. Is it very expensive? It's expensive. *It is more expensive than carrying water and consume petrol? That is laziness. Once you have a well, then you save so much trouble. Get one well in each, our house. It is here very deep, uh? To get well? Tube*-well? But there are so many creeks. We have what is called a spring house. It's pure spring water. It's caught in reservoir. Where is it? *At the other farm we have, as well as tube*-well. Water must be. Śrīla Prabhupāda, if in the spiritual sky there is no sex life . . . You can store the snow. Yes. Big, big hole, and collect the snow, and put it here and cover it, it will stay. Is it not? We have so much water, though, running off the hill, we can make lakes. We have three lakes now. Then? Why don't you do it? *You saw the Rādhā*-kuṇḍa in the movie, in the film. Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one returns to his svarūpa, his natural form, how does . . . *First of all, anartha*-nivṛtti. You are accustomed to so many bad habits. First of all try to rectify it, then talk of svarūpa. Where is your svarūpa? Simply wasting time. A man is diseased, he's thinking, "When I shall be cured I shall eat, go to this hotel, I shall eat like this." First of all cure, then talk of eating this and that. Svarūpa . . . when you are cured, that is svarūpa. So long you are not cured, what is the use of talking svarūpa? First business is cure yourself. Anartha-nivṛtti. That is anartha-nivṛtti. Then svarūpa will come. That is the bābājīs. In Vṛndāvana, you have seen? Siddha-praṇālī. *Ah, siddha*-praṇālī, siddha-deha. They are smoking and having illicit sex with one dozen women—svarūpa. Rascal. This is called sahajiyā, a rascal. Condemned. Where is your svarūpa? Don't talk unnecessarily. First of all come to svarūpa, then talk of svarūpa. So our motivation should be to get free from birth, disease, old age and death. *That is already explained. But you must be determined how to execute devotional service. Without determined devotional service, how we can attain that position? So what is the use of talking, utopian? First business is anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Ādau śraddhā tathaḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15). You adopt this means that you have got full faith that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness will save me." Then you live with devotees who are similarly determined. Then you execute devotional service. Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, you'll be free from all these . . . these are the stages. There is . . . up to anartha-nivṛtti, you have to struggle very hard with determination, and then automatically everything will come. Tato niṣṭhā tato rucis tataḥ, athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ. So before svarūpa, anartha-nivṛtti, don't expect all these. (pause) Read. This is practice. "Gradually, step by step, with full conviction, one should become situated in trance by means of intelligence, and thus the mind should be fixed on the self alone and should think of nothing else." Purport: "By proper conviction and intelligence one should gradually cease sense activities. This is called pratyāhāra. The mind, being controlled by conviction, meditation and cessation of the senses, should be situated in trance, or samādhi. At that time there is no longer any danger of becoming engaged in the material conception of life. In other words, although one is involved with matter, as long as the material body exists, one should not think about sense gratification. One should think of no pleasure aside from the pleasure of the Supreme Self. This state is easily attained by directly practicing Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Śrīla Prabhupāda, before you said the patient has no intelligence. Therefore he requires spiritual master's guidance. Because he is rascal. What is the use of accepting a spiritual master? If you want to be cured independently, what is the use of calling a physician, consulting a physician? You do it yourself. (pause) Whether our cows are left now? We don't find cows. *They are at Govindajī temple. They are at the . . . where we will build Govindajī, at the main farm, Bahulāvana, for Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra, and some at Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana they are kept free to roam around, but at our farm in Bahulāvana they have to be in pastures. Last time I saw some cows here. Yes, this pasture. Still there? No. This pasture is through now, is it not? For a while. This pasture is through for a while. It must grow back. They are on another pasture. Today we had three calves born, all female heifers. (pause) Yes, go on. The difficulty is that we cannot understand . . . we cannot feel what pleases Kṛṣṇa now, yet we can feel what pleases us, and that is the difficulty? You have no feeling; that everyone knows. Therefore you have to carry out the order of spiritual master, that's all. If we try to please Kṛṣṇa with all of our service and activities, that automatically brings pleasure to the self? *You cannot please Kṛṣṇa directly. You please your spiritual master, Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. If you want to please directly Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. That is concoction. You cannot please. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ. You have to please your spiritual master, then Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Don't jump. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya. What is that song you daily sing? What is that? "By the words of the spiritual master our mind becomes conclusive from . . ." Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't concoct. Don't you sing daily? Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't manufacture ideas. That is dangerous. Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches by His example. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karilā śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī that "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one, so he has chastised Me, that 'Don't try to read Vedānta; chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing." (pause) (loud motorcycle in background) Just hear. He has come to this turn. This sound is purposefully created? (motorbike going back and forth through much of the tape) Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Just to show that he has a motorcycle? Or what is purpose? They have given us trouble sometimes. Demons. When your palace is on the other side, they won't disturb. And we will have walls. No. They don't like us. They are doing better than before, but still they are somewhat envious. *Everywhere this world is like that. Even the father will give trouble, Prahlāda Mahārāja, what to speak of others. Demon father is giving trouble to a Vaiṣṇava son. And not grown*-up son—five years old, innocent—but he's giving trouble. When we had sickness, the state police became very interested in us, and today a state policeman stopped me and asked if you were here. So he seems to be paying special attention that you are here now, and he's very interested. However demon may be, they can appreciate that these are ideal characters. *All these state police, they purchased Bhagavad*-gītā. Huh? *All these state police, they purchased Bhagavad*-gītā. (sound of motorcycles) Oh. (end) Conversation -- June 23, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA (Garden Conversation) *. . .production of it's external. Bahir*-aṅga-śakti. But the śakti, the energy, is coming from the Supreme. Just like here we find this place is shadow and that place is sunshine. Both these places are due to the sun. When there is no sun, there is no such distinction that "This is shining, sunny, and this is shadow." So this distinction is there so long we do not know the real source. But if we know the real source, we can understand that this distinction is temporary. Actually the energy is coming from the Supreme. So shadow has come from Supreme, and light has also come from the Supreme. So there is no distinction, ultimately. Just like earring, golden, manufactured from gold, and the gold which is not manufactured. So this distinction—manufactured or not manufactured, secondary. But really the earring is also gold, and the lump of gold is also gold. So why should we say that earring is false? It is also gold. In relationship with the supreme source, janmādy asya yataḥ ( SB 1.1.1), there is no such distinction. *In another place, while Vyāsadeva was instructed by Nārada, he said, idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaro (SB 1.5.20). This viśva, the virāṭ*-rūpa, is also Bhagavān, but it appears different from Him. Just like the shadow appears different from the sunshine, but actually, taking the central point of emanation, it is different manifestation. That's all. Tree—there are so many varieties. One is trunk, one is branch, one is twig, one is leaf, one is . . . So the varieties are there, but the tree is one, the root. So ultimately there is no variety; *only one. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). The difference is the Māyāvādīs, they abruptly say everything is one. Not everything is one. The trunk is not one with the leaf, but ultimately, because the root is the cause, so there is no difference between the trunk and the leaf. This is acintya*-bhedābheda philosophy, simultaneously one and different. On the whole, everything is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why should we think this world is mithyā when it is created by God? Does God create anything false? No. When it is created by God . . . When we think that "I create some business, some factory, that is my pleasure," but if somebody else thinks it, it is for his pleasure, that is māyā. The world is created by God, He has got some motive, so if the world, cosmic manifestation, is utilized for His purpose, then it is spiritual. Otherwise, it is material. *In the Seventh Canto, the second volume, the first chapter in that volume, Prahlāda Mahārāja is talking how the studying of the three Vedas is external and it includes knowledge, though, of education and self*-realization, but he considers it material because it is external study of the Vedas. I don't understand that. Anything external is material. *Self*-realization is included in that list of education and self-realization and other items. *Yes, self*-realization, simply understanding "I am not this matter," is also external because there is chance of falldown. But when you are actually engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is positive platform of self-realization. Just like the brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Brahmeti. *Different stages of self*-realization. (pause) Today there is no wind at all. Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we explain that our activity is spiritual, what we are doing is spiritual . . . Just like we say the quality of the tape recorder becomes spiritualized when it's used in Kṛṣṇa's service. So the materialists, they don't understand. They say, "Well, the tape recorder will also break, the tapes will also be burned up sometimes." That's all right. It will go to Kṛṣṇa. Breaking, where it will go? Hmm? Well they say the chemicals again become . . . That chemical, where it will go? Yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante yasmin saṁviśanti (Taittirīya Upaniṣad 3.1). Everything is created from Kṛṣṇa, again it returns to Kṛṣṇa. Then they say then we needn't play Kṛṣṇa conscious music. We might as well play rock and roll if it is going back to Kṛṣṇa. *That is māyā. This is meant for Kṛṣṇa's service. As soon as you do anything else, then it is māyā. Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā (BG 7.14). Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's. But under māyā we suffer; under Kṛṣṇa we enjoy. So if we engage everything here in Kṛṣṇa's service, then the atmosphere will change. Yes. They can notice the change in the atmosphere. *That is real atmosphere. Sva*-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). Mukti means to stay in the original form. Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've heard that you use the example that spirit has form and therefore the body also has similar form, just as a hand has a form in a glove, it's the hand's similar form. So how can we understand that the trees have a certain form? That . . . is there spirit in the form of a tree? Yes. Then how do we explain the transmigration of the soul? This outward is a form. What is the difficulty? (to devotees) Discuss. Just as this human body has a human form, we say that because this body has a form, the soul also must have form. So? Talking about the transmigration, then. Just as the glove has a certain form because the hand is shaped like that, the material body of a human has that form because the spirit is in that form? And the tree has that form because the spirit is in that form? Here difficulty is that the form is fixed up. That is not . . . Just like Kṛṣṇa appears in so many forms; everything is spiritual. So what do you think? So the form in the spiritual sky is not absolute either? We can take different forms in the spiritual sky? Yes, there are also many forms, but all of them are spiritual, the Vṛndāvana. There is tree, there is Yamunā water, there is land, there is cow, there is calf, there is gopas, gopīs—they are all spiritual. Just like from earth you make many forms, but they are earth. You make pots, you make dolls, but they are all earth. Similarly, spiritual world, there are many forms, they are all spiritual. What is the difficulty? Does that form ever change? That form changes also? Yes. Kṛṣṇa is young, and then He's a little older. Generally, it does not change, if one likes this type of form. Śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vātsalya, mādhurya. That change is available to anyone to progress from śānta to dāsya? That change is not material change. The spiritual bliss is there, either in this form or that form. Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that if we serve Kṛṣṇa we will enjoy, and if we serve māyā then we suffer. How can we get over our desire to serve māyā and enjoy separately from Kṛṣṇa? Hmm? Says in the material world when we try to enjoy, we suffer. When we try to enjoy we suffer? Then how will we get over our desire? And when we serve Kṛṣṇa, we become happy. But how will we get over our desire to serve māyā? The attachment is strong. Hmm? He says how will we get over the desire to serve māyā, to try to enjoy ourselves in this material world? Serve Kṛṣṇa. *It says here that yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). One obtaining this actual service of Kṛṣṇa, when one tastes the service of Kṛṣṇa, then he sees any other gain, he does not consider anything else. "Established thus, one never departs from the truth, and upon gaining this he thinks there is no greater gain." So when you actually taste the service of Kṛṣṇa, then you won't consider anything else to be worthy of your effort. But when we do think something else to be worthy of our effort then it means that we haven't . . . we're not really becoming advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We're not developing. We should try to develop to that point. We have to develop. Prabhupāda says this is the test of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you will not want to depart from Kṛṣṇa consciousness to enjoy himself in material nature. And when one still wants to do that, that means he hasn't advanced to that point of stability in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dṛḍha*-vrata, who's completely fixed in his service. Avasthitiḥ. Yatra sthito na calati. When one is situated there, he doesn't depart from there, he doesn't want to go out from there. So we have to reach that point. So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if at this platform we are not yet . . . we are still desiring to depart from Kṛṣṇa's service and enjoy, then we are not . . . we have not yet tasted devotional service, what is it that we have tasted that is keeping us temporarily connected to Kṛṣṇa? That is the Vedic injunction: You keep yourself connected with Kṛṣṇa, then you will develop the taste. Just like a jaundice patient does not taste sugar as sweet, but if he continues to take sugar candy, then he will have the real taste for sugar candy—sweet, not bitter. So he has to continue to eat sugar candy continually. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam. Then he'll have the taste. But the patient must be intelligent to keep . . . Even though he does not want . . . Patient is always rascal, fool. You cannot expect him to be intelligent. He must agree to the physician's direction. That is intelligence. He must know that he's diseased, he must follow the instruction of the physician. That much will help him. Unless one is rascal, he does not fall sick. As soon as you violate the hygienic principles, you become sick. All commit sinful activities on account of ignorance. So therefore the best advancement of civilization is not to open hospitals, but to give them a lesson that they may not fall sick and go to hospital. That is real . . . But they do not know. They keep the mass of people in ignorance, they fall sick and they come to hospital, and number of hospitals increase—they think it is advancement. This is their idea. So even the Christian, religious persons, they also open hospital to give relief to the patient. So that is not the program. The program is why he should fall sick and come to the hospital? Precaution is better than cure. One comes to the hospital for cure, but why not take the precaution so that he may not have to come to the hospital for cure? That is Vedic civilization. They have different prescribed rules and regulations so that a person may not fall sick. The modern idea is that "Let them fall sick; *we have got hospitals and treat him, and he'll be cured." But he is cured, again he falls sick. That is going on. They have no program for precaution. They have program for cure. But actually, precaution is better than cure. We are taking precaution. So other fools, rascals, they are thinking, "What these people are doing? They have no hospital, they have no this program, that," according to them. Just like our Vivekananda, he prescribed daridra*-nārāyaṇa-sevā. The same thing—hospital. We kill all animals, and the hospital patient is given the meat for improvement of the health. But he does not know that this is not curing; *he is become implicated in his karma. He has to be killed again, and eaten by the other animals. That he does not know. They do not accept karma*-phala. Hmm? The result of fruitive activities, they do not accept. But you have to accept. There is no excuse. If you contaminate some disease, you must suffer from that disease. There is no excuse. *So kriyā*-karma, you have to enjoy or suffer the result of karma. Karma-bandhana. But when you act for Kṛṣṇa, then you are mukta. Yajñārthāt karma anyatra karma (BG 3.9). Karma must be there. If you act for Kṛṣṇa, then it is all right, and if you act for your sense gratification, then there is bondage. If you do not take education, if you remain fools and rascals, then you will suffer and create disturbance for others also. Therefore everyone must be educated, good citizens. It is good for him, good for others. (long pause) So you go on reading. Translation: "One should engage oneself in the practice of yoga with undeviating determination and faith. One should abandon, without exception, all material desires born of false ego and thus control all the senses on all sides by the mind." *Purport: "The yoga practitioner should be determined and should patiently prosecute the practice without deviation. One should be sure of success at the end and pursue this course with great perseverance, not becoming discouraged if there is any delay in the attainment of success. Success is sure for the rigid practitioner. Regarding bhakti*-yoga, Rūpa Gosvāmī says: *'The process of bhakti*-yoga can be executed successfully with full-hearted enthusiasm, perseverance and determination by following the prescribed duties in the association of devotees and by engaging completely in activities of goodness.' As for determination, one should follow the example of the sparrow who lost her eggs in the waves of the ocean. A sparrow laid her eggs on the shore of the ocean, but the big ocean carried away the eggs on its waves. The sparrow became very upset and asked the ocean to return her eggs. The ocean did not even consider her appeal. So the sparrow decided to dry up the ocean. She began to pick out the water in her small beak, and everyone laughed at her for her impossible determination. The news of her activity spread, and at last Garuḍa, the gigantic bird carrier of Lord Viṣṇu, heard it. He became compassionate toward his small sister bird, and so he came to see the sparrow. Garuḍa was very pleased by the determination of the small sparrow, and he promised to help. Thus Garuḍa at once asked the ocean to return her eggs lest he himself take up the work of the sparrow. The ocean was frightened at this, and returned the eggs. Thus the sparrow became happy by the grace of Garuḍa. Similarly, the practice of yoga, especially bhakti-yoga in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, may appear to be a very difficult job, but if anyone follows the principles with great determination, the Lord will surely help, for God helps those who help themselves." Now, questions? Any questions? So is there ever, for someone whose determination wavers and slackens here and there, is there ever a point where the neophyte devotee is in danger of just forgetting everything and falling, tumbling completely backwards? *Everyone is neophyte. He should practice determination, that's all. If he cannot practice, then why should he enter into this association? Let him remain aloof. One who has entered with the determination that "I must practice," so if he cannot practice, then why this make*-show that "I belong to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. I am initiated." Why this farce? He must practice with determination, that "By practicing I'll be success." That is wanted. He has no determination, why should he make a show? Dṛḍha-vrata. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28). Dṛḍha-vrata, that is wanted, determination. Hmm, go on. When one is determined, his success is assured. If he's not determined, then success or failure. Can one develop determination gradually? *Why gradually? When you promise before your spiritual master that no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating, why should you fall down? If you have no determination, why should you promise in presence of the Deity, fire, spiritual master, Vaiṣṇava? Why do you make this farce, if you have no determination? If you want to make it a farce, that depends on you. But you should not. When we make that promise . . . *Yes, you should not fall down. That is determination. That is gentleman's determination, that "I have given my promise. Why shall I fall down?" That is determination. "I must respect promise." That is called dṛḍha*-vrata. So he'll success. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we want to cheat, that is another thing. If we have no determination, we should not take up this life. Therefore, chance is given that "Stay with us for six months or one year, be determined. Then be initiated." If you are not determined, what is the use of false initiation? Sometimes this weakness seems to be . . . Weakness there . . . You should rectify weakness. Why you should give any importance to weakness? Weakness is weakness. Rectify it. This promise is the minimum determination. Hmm? This promise of following four regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds daily, that is the minimum determination. Then, from there, he must increase. *Initiation means minimum, just beginning. That is the dictionary meaning, initiation. In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta there is a verse, *(to Pradyumna) Explain it. You understand? Śraddhā, śabde, viśvāsa, sudṛḍha, niścaya. Kṛṣṇe, bhakti, kaile, sarva*-karma, kṛta, haya. The word śraddhā means faith. So by the word faith, we need firm determination or conviction, śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya. Viśvāsa means faith which is sudṛḍha, very . . . sudṛḍha, dṛḍha means firm, and sudṛḍha means very firmly. Niścaya. Niścaya is used here also, sa niścayena yoktavyaḥ. Yoga is to be engaged in, applied with firm . . . Faith. Niścaya means conviction. Conviction. Kṛṣṇe . . . Bhakti kaile. *Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva kṛta*-karma. *Sarva*-karma kṛta haya. *Sarva*-karma kṛta haya. And if one engages, if one performs service to Kṛṣṇa, then everything else becomes accomplished? Yes. Everything else becomes accomplished. If one renders service to Kṛṣṇa, then automatically everything else . . . one has no obligations to the material world. *Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa will say, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66)? Because by that action everything will be done. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. That means He is cheating? There are so many other occupations, say, veda-dharma, samāja-dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, medical dharma, lawyer dharma. You can manufacture so many occupations. Dharma means occupational duties. But if you take only one occupational duty—to serve Kṛṣṇa—all things will be included. Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is instruction. So to accept this principle means firm determination, firm conviction: "Yes, if I serve Kṛṣṇa, then all my other duties will be automatically done." This is firm conviction. "By one stroke, I'll kill so many birds." *Anartha*-nivṛtti? Hmm? *Rūpa Gosvāmī says bhajana*-kriyā and then anārtha-nivṛtti. Then all the unwanted things go away. *First of all, beginning with kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva*-karma kṛta haya. So bhakti, beginning is ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅga bhajana-kriyā anartha-nivṛttiḥ (CC Madhya 23.14). The material world means simply creating unnecessary duties. Simply anartha. Any material activities, you take, analyze, it is simply useless. Therefore they are called anartha. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Take for example we say no meat-eating. So what is the difficulty there? I have seen in the airplane, they eat meat, a little piece, not a lump. But because everyone is eating little, little, we require huge number of slaughterhouses. But if one decides, "I have got so many preparations to eat, so why shall I eat little meat? . . . (indistinct) . . . I shall forego," immediately he is saved from so many sinful activities. It is not that he will die if he does not eat a little piece of meat, he will die. He'll not die. We are not dying, and we don't take. So similarly everyone, without eating meat, he can live very nicely. In the whole principle, there is no difficulty. *So on this whole principle this whole world is merged into sinful activities. That is called unnecessary. That is material position—unnecessarily creating trouble. There is no necessity. But on account of ignorance, foolish association, sinful life, more and more and more and more going on. Andhā yathāndhair upagīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And the leaders encouraging: "Yes, you do this. Enjoy life." What is his enjoyment? If anyone sees slaughterhouse, will he enjoy? Hmm? What is . . .? He visits a slaughterhouse, is it enjoyment? But he takes as enjoyment. This is anartha: unnecessary, without any meaning. Mad, just like a madman acts, without any meaning. The monkey acts without any meaning. This is called anartha: unnecessarily creating disturbance. Anartha. . . . anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). If you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all anartha will be finished. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. We are no more interested in unnecessary things. Illicit sex—one side they are encouraging contraceptive method. So why they'll not stop illicit sex, then automatically there is contraceptive method? So one side there is encouraged, contraceptive method, another, unlimited, unrestricted sex. This is their civilization. Why not teach him not to practice illicit sex? Then everything is done automatically. There's no need of contraceptive method. If one is trained up to indulge in sex only for begetting nice children, there is already contraceptive method. There is no necessity of unnecessarily producing cats and dogs children. *So that requires training, determination. So śāstra says you should not become father if you cannot train up your children to save him from death. Who is the father who's training? To save him from the cycle of birth and death means to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if you are not yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, how you can train up your children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? This is determination, that "If I cannot train my children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and thus avoid the botheration of birth and death, I shall not have sex." That determination will save so many troubles. That can be done by practice. By engaging the mind in Kṛṣṇa, it is possible. The more you advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll lose interest in this sex life. In Vaikuṇṭha there is no sex life because the sex pleasure is not the foremost pleasure in the Vaikuṇṭhaloka. The sex pleasure is foremost here in this material world. They have got so much transcendental spiritual pleasure, this sex pleasure—they are astonished: is that pleasure? Phu! (makes spitting sound) Yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāma . . . (Yāmunācārya). That stage is possible. Still there are so many brahmacārīs. So everything depends on practice. Abhyāsa yoga-yuktena (BG 8.8). That requires determination. (aside) Where did you go, to take bath? This house just across. There is water? Well? No. There are barrels there, filling them daily. Oh. Why not well? Have a big well? They are getting water also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from this well. Your well is also going to that side. Yes. Have several wells in all places. That is nice. Is it very expensive? It's expensive. *It is more expensive than carrying water and consume petrol? That is laziness. Once you have a well, then you save so much trouble. Get one well in each, our house. It is here very deep, uh? To get well? Tube*-well? But there are so many creeks. We have what is called a spring house. It's pure spring water. It's caught in reservoir. Where is it? *At the other farm we have, as well as tube*-well. Water must be. Śrīla Prabhupāda, if in the spiritual sky there is no sex life . . . You can store the snow. Yes. Big, big hole, and collect the snow, and put it here and cover it, it will stay. Is it not? We have so much water, though, running off the hill, we can make lakes. We have three lakes now. Then? Why don't you do it? *You saw the Rādhā*-kuṇḍa in the movie, in the film. Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one returns to his svarūpa, his natural form, how does . . . *First of all, anartha*-nivṛtti. You are accustomed to so many bad habits. First of all try to rectify it, then talk of svarūpa. Where is your svarūpa? Simply wasting time. A man is diseased, he's thinking, "When I shall be cured I shall eat, go to this hotel, I shall eat like this." First of all cure, then talk of eating this and that. Svarūpa . . . when you are cured, that is svarūpa. So long you are not cured, what is the use of talking svarūpa? First business is cure yourself. Anartha-nivṛtti. That is anartha-nivṛtti. Then svarūpa will come. That is the bābājīs. In Vṛndāvana, you have seen? Siddha-praṇālī. *Ah, siddha*-praṇālī, siddha-deha. They are smoking and having illicit sex with one dozen women—svarūpa. Rascal. This is called sahajiyā, a rascal. Condemned. Where is your svarūpa? Don't talk unnecessarily. First of all come to svarūpa, then talk of svarūpa. So our motivation should be to get free from birth, disease, old age and death. *That is already explained. But you must be determined how to execute devotional service. Without determined devotional service, how we can attain that position? So what is the use of talking, utopian? First business is anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Ādau śraddhā tathaḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15). You adopt this means that you have got full faith that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness will save me." Then you live with devotees who are similarly determined. Then you execute devotional service. Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, you'll be free from all these . . . these are the stages. There is . . . up to anartha-nivṛtti, you have to struggle very hard with determination, and then automatically everything will come. Tato niṣṭhā tato rucis tataḥ, athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ. So before svarūpa, anartha-nivṛtti, don't expect all these. (pause) Read. This is practice. "Gradually, step by step, with full conviction, one should become situated in trance by means of intelligence, and thus the mind should be fixed on the self alone and should think of nothing else." Purport: "By proper conviction and intelligence one should gradually cease sense activities. This is called pratyāhāra. The mind, being controlled by conviction, meditation and cessation of the senses, should be situated in trance, or samādhi. At that time there is no longer any danger of becoming engaged in the material conception of life. In other words, although one is involved with matter, as long as the material body exists, one should not think about sense gratification. One should think of no pleasure aside from the pleasure of the Supreme Self. This state is easily attained by directly practicing Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Śrīla Prabhupāda, before you said the patient has no intelligence. Therefore he requires spiritual master's guidance. Because he is rascal. What is the use of accepting a spiritual master? If you want to be cured independently, what is the use of calling a physician, consulting a physician? You do it yourself. (pause) Whether our cows are left now? We don't find cows. *They are at Govindajī temple. They are at the . . . where we will build Govindajī, at the main farm, Bahulāvana, for Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra, and some at Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana they are kept free to roam around, but at our farm in Bahulāvana they have to be in pastures. Last time I saw some cows here. Yes, this pasture. Still there? No. This pasture is through now, is it not? For a while. This pasture is through for a while. It must grow back. They are on another pasture. Today we had three calves born, all female heifers. (pause) Yes, go on. The difficulty is that we cannot understand . . . we cannot feel what pleases Kṛṣṇa now, yet we can feel what pleases us, and that is the difficulty? You have no feeling; that everyone knows. Therefore you have to carry out the order of spiritual master, that's all. If we try to please Kṛṣṇa with all of our service and activities, that automatically brings pleasure to the self? *You cannot please Kṛṣṇa directly. You please your spiritual master, Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. If you want to please directly Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. That is concoction. You cannot please. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ. You have to please your spiritual master, then Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Don't jump. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya. What is that song you daily sing? What is that? "By the words of the spiritual master our mind becomes conclusive from . . ." Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't concoct. Don't you sing daily? Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't manufacture ideas. That is dangerous. Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches by His example. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karilā śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī that "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one, so he has chastised Me, that 'Don't try to read Vedānta; chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing." (pause) (loud motorcycle in background) Just hear. He has come to this turn. This sound is purposefully created? (motorbike going back and forth through much of the tape) Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Just to show that he has a motorcycle? Or what is purpose? They have given us trouble sometimes. Demons. When your palace is on the other side, they won't disturb. And we will have walls. No. They don't like us. They are doing better than before, but still they are somewhat envious. *Everywhere this world is like that. Even the father will give trouble, Prahlāda Mahārāja, what to speak of others. Demon father is giving trouble to a Vaiṣṇava son. And not grown*-up son—five years old, innocent—but he's giving trouble. When we had sickness, the state police became very interested in us, and today a state policeman stopped me and asked if you were here. So he seems to be paying special attention that you are here now, and he's very interested. However demon may be, they can appreciate that these are ideal characters. *All these state police, they purchased Bhagavad*-gītā. Huh? *All these state police, they purchased Bhagavad*-gītā. (sound of motorcycles) Oh. (end) Conversation A -- June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA So, what news? Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we've distributed about 70,000 magazines so far this month. So I think we'll reach 100,000 in this month. Even though we are getting much harassment from the police, still we are going on. Why harassment? What is the fault? (break) They are mostly godless, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They see us as a nuisance to the public. We are threatening their sense gratification. What fault did Prahlāda have? Sense gratification, we are refusing them? We are threatening their sense gratification. Hmm. So it is bad? It is bad for their way of life. Just like Prahlāda was preaching to his school friends. And I think almost 20,000 big books so far. "So far" means? Up to this month, for the first three weeks. Means there's one more, one more week. Nine days left. What is your party doing? What is what? Your party, selling books? I don't know what the figures are. No, your line is this farming. Per capita, we distribute more books. Huh? Per man, we distribute more books than they do. I think per man we distribute more than anybody in ISKCON. And still they are maintaining this farm. And building very nice buildings. Hmm? Very nice projects they are building. This project should be advanced—plain living, high thinking. I think we'll take around that film of New Vrindavan to all the colleges this year when we are preaching, and show it to the students as our practical example. This is nasty civilization, unnecessarily increasing necessities of life. Anartha. We would not have understood you if you had said that eight, ten years ago. Hmm? Ten years ago I know I could not have understood you if you had said that. Now I understand a little bit. *Now suppose these electric light. So, crude form of light, we grow some castor seed, everything from the earth. This also you are getting from earth, petroleum, and running on machine, and electricity is generated. But really you are getting the impetus from the earth. As soon as the petroleum supply is stopped, everything stopped. But for this purpose you have to search out petroleum from the middle of ocean, boring. Therefore it is ugra*-karma. The purpose is that you grow some castor seed, press it, get oil, put in any pot, and one wick, the light is there. Light is there. So even understanding that you have improved the lighting system, but that is not the only necessity of my life. But to improve from the castor seed lamp, castor oil lamp, to this electricity, you have to work so hard. You have to go to the middle of ocean and drill it and get out petroleum and . . . in this way your real business of life is finished. The energy and the intelligence you got for your self-realization or your, this precarious position, constantly dying and taking birth in various species of life, this is your problem, and this was to be solved in human life, you have got advanced intelligence. But that intelligence is utilized from castor seed lamp to the electric lamp. That's all. Just try to understand. What is that improvement? And for this improving from castor seed oil lamp to electricity lamp, you forget your real business. You lost yourself. This civilization is going on. This is called māyā. For some fictitious happiness you lose your whole purpose of life. It is difficult to understand, but the fact is there. But you are under the control of nature; you have to give up this body. All right, you make very nice arrangement to live here, nature will not allow you to live. You must die. And after death you are going to get another body. So in this body, working for high grade electricity lamp, you work so hard, have got your own business, and next life, by the laws of nature if you get the body of a dog, then what is the benefit? That you cannot check. What is the answer? Hmm? Simple living, high thinking. Huh? Simple living. No, here is the charge. Now what is your answer? In this life you are living very comfortably, next life if I'm going to be a dog, then this is the charge. Now how this class of men will answer it? Can he deny that he's not going to be a dog? He says he doesn't believe it. *You believe or not believe. Just like this child, it is boy, he does not know anything. But I know, his mother knows, his father knows that he's going to be young man. If he says, "No, I am not going to be young man," that is childish. That is childish. But the father, mother, friends know that the boy is going to grow a young man, so he should be educated and he should be properly situated. That is the guardian's business. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. So that he doesn't know, that does not mean it is not fact. So similarly, if rascals say, "I don't believe it," that's not a fact. He is a rascal, mad, he may say so, but that is not the fact. Karaṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgasya ( BG 13.22). Real fact is that he'll have to accept a body according to the quality of development. But what if they say that "Actually, this life of growing the castor seed is very difficult, farming is very difficult. It is easier to go to the factory for eight hours, and then I come home with my money and I enjoy." No, you enjoy, but by enjoying, if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Your real business is that you have got this human form of body to improve your next life. You are going to have a next life. Suppose you are going to be a dog. Is that success? So you must know the science that instead of becoming dog, how shall you become God. That is intelligence. Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to dig a well? Huh? Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to . . . *No, you require lamp. So you finish that lamping business as simply as possible. In the balance time you save, you improve your self*-realization. That is the life. Just like this child, he wants to play. He does not go to school, does not take an education, and he improves type of toils, toys, he's engaged in improved type of football playing, and . . . then is that very good intelligence? But nobody works longer hours than the farmer. Huh? No one works harder than the farmer. The farmer has to work very hard. No, our point is that if you think that electricity improvement is better than farming, we have no objection. But if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? No, of course not. *That is our point. Our real business is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So simply for improving the condition of life, the necessities of life, if I forget my real business, is that intelligent? Therefore it is said duṣkṛtinaḥ. Kṛti means merit. But merit is being utilized for sinful activities. Take for example the meat*-eaters. When man was . . . the uncivilized man is still there. In the uncivilized way they are living in the jungle. They require to eat something. So they stone over an animal going, and the animal dies, and then they eat. Now instead of killing the animal by stoning, if you have discovered scientific machine in the slaughterhouse to kill the animal, is that improvement? If you think this is advancement, "Now we have discovered very technical machine. Instead of stoning one animal, killing, it takes so much time, hundreds and thousands of animals you can kill in one hour," do you think that is improvement? That is going on. They think this is improvement. When we were uncivilized, we were stoning some animal and killing and eating, now we are . . . business is the same—animal killing and eating—but we have improved the machine how to kill. This is going on. This is going on as advancement of civilization. Hmm? What is your answer? Is that advancement of civilization? Now you are civilized, instead of killing the animal, you just take milk from it without killing and make so many nice preparations, and that is civilization. But killing is sinful. You have no right to kill any animal, even an ant, because you cannot give life to anyone. It is nature's law, God's law. So infringement on the laws of nature or God, it is sinful activities. So you are utilizing your merit for this sinful activity. Therefore it is called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Merit is there, but it is utilized for sinful activities. That is defect of the modern civilization. Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember once you said . . . These questions that "I believe," "I don't believe," you are rascal; *what is the meaning of your believe or not believing? You are, after all, a rascal. Just like a child will say something, "I don't believe." The mother will say, "You are rascal. You must go to school." So rascals believe or not believe, what is the meaning? Mūḍha. It is the law of nature. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). The example is given that this boy will change his body, dehāntara-prāptir. He'll become a young boy, young man. This body will not remain. What is the difficulty to understand, "Yes, this body will not remain"? While he came out of the womb of the mother, that was another body. But these rascals, they do not understand it. It is very difficult to deal with the rascals, that's a fact, but . . . whatever they are doing is all rascaldom, that's all. And forgetting their real business. So your son, does he believe that he's going to be a young man? (asks child) You believe? (laughs) Huh? What is your . . . I remember once when we were staying at John Lennon's estate, you said to me . . . Huh? At John Lennon's estate, remember? In London. You said to me, the tractor, you said, this is the cause of all the trouble. That it took all the work from the young men, and they went to the city and became entangled in the sense gratification in the cities. So I've noticed in the city there's much more passion, but living in the country is simpler. Yes. Passion there must be. When you have got the facility, naturally we are lusty, and we have got the facility, then we take to it. The country is more peaceful. It's easier to think of spiritual life. *Yes. Less disease. Less brain*-taxing. Everything is less. So balance time, utilize for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if you have got temple, it is very happy life. Just for your food work little, and balance time engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is ideal life. (pause) Just see minute fibers on the flower. Can anyone manufacture this? So small fibers. And how brilliant it is. If you study only one flower, you become God conscious. There is a machine which we call nature. From that machine, everything is coming. But how machine is perfect? And who has discovered this machine? In London you said they do not know that the butterflies and flowers are painted, but Kṛṣṇa paints them with thought. *Yes. How you can expect without painting it has come so beautiful? This is foolishness, "nature." What is this nature? Everything is being done by the machine of Kṛṣṇa. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (CC Madhya 13.65, purport). Anyway, improve this mode of life. Live in open place, produce your food grain, produce your milk, save time, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Plain living, high thinking—ideal life. Artificial necessities of life do increase your so*-called comfort, but if you forget your real business, that is suicidal. We want to stop this suicidal policy. We don't want to stop the modern advancement of technology, although the so-called advancement technology is suicidal. But we don't talk of this. (laughter) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore given a simple formula—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even in your technological factories, you can chant. What is the wrong there? You go on pulling on with your machine and chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa. They know that if people take up the chanting, gradually they will give up this technology. That is, of course. You are actually putting the seeds of their destruction. *Yes. No, what is destruction? It is, rather, construction. (laughter) He'll live. He'll live forever. This is destruction. You have to change body. But our method, this tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9): you don't get anymore material body. So that is saving. And without this? Tathā dehāntara*-praptir. Then you have to accept another body. So which is better: to accept another material body or no more accepting material body? Which is better? But as soon as you accept material body, you have to suffer. Material body means suffering. So that requires knowledge. If we finish our suffering up to this body, that is intelligent. And if we create another body for suffering, is that intelligent? That you have to . . . unless you understand Kṛṣṇa, you have to accept. There is no alternative. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They are so dull they cannot understand this simple truth, that as the child, boy, is accepting another body, we have to accept another body. They cannot understand. So dull brain. It will take five hundred years to teach them this very simple fact. Huh? Their education is so advanced. (laughter) Therefore mūḍha, the word is used. So-called education keeps them as an ass. Cannot understand the simple truth. (pause) So everyone is getting milk? How much? As much as they want. As much as they want, then jaundice. (laughter) Too much is not good. They may take minimum half pound per head. Minimum. Minimum. And maximum one pound. Not more than that. But "Because there is enough, let us eat," no. That is not good. But children must get at least one pound milk. If they drink more milk they become stout and strong. They get more than one pound. They get at least two pounds. Then their life is built up strong, and nice brain to understand. Do they not see the benefit of the society, that we are not killing children, we are maintaining them with sufficient milk? Is it not better civilization? And they are, for fear of overpopulation, they are killing. The mother is killing the child. Is that civilization? *But in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that those in the mode of ignorance, they take irreligion to be religion and religion to be irreligion. *No, religion . . . there is no religion for them, but there is no morality even. Here we are having so many children. We don't brag that "We cannot maintain these children. Kill them." We never say that. Never mind. Let them be trained up as Kṛṣṇa conscious, live comfortably, take milk. So which is better civilization? Running with motorcar, put*-put-put-put-put-put-put-put and killing child? Is that civilization? Most of these children are not even our own. They have been taken in from . . . Just see, that means we welcome. . . . mothers without fathers, and . . . That means we welcome and they kill. So why do they not find the distinction between this civilization, that civilization? They have no arguments against this, except that they want to be free. In colleges . . . But they are not free. That means they are fools. They are not free, still they are thinking "free." That is foolishness. If you are actually free, that is another thing, (laughs) but you are not free. You are responsible for even a minute work or misdeed, you are responsible. Where is your freedom? That freedom means ahaṅkāra vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). The rascal, foolish, bewildered, he's thinking that he's free. Where is your freedom? Nature is working. If you are free, then why you are dying? If you are free, then do not die. Nobody wants to die. What is the answer? They will give some nonsense answer. What is that nonsense? In nonsense there must be some sense also. I think they would like both. Like the Christians, they would like to enjoy sinful life and at the same time live forever. No, we don't talk of any sect; we are talking of the general principles. Their tendency is . . . Now the people's tendency, general tendency is, unless he's a madman, nobody is prepared to die. But he has to die. "But I accept death as part of life." Part of life? "Yes, it's natural. So I don't . . . I'm not afraid." Then when there is some sign of death, why do you go away? Sit down and die. (laughter) You don't accept that. You are talking foolishly. You don't want to die. That is a fact. You are talking foolishly, that "I accept it," but you don't accept it. That is the fact. But because you have no other way, then you say, "I accept it." The real fact is this, that you do not wish to die, but you find that there is no other alternative, "Then I accept it. All right." So you can talk like that, foolishly, but intelligent man, you do not want to die. One time, one boy said that. So as soon as he said it, I picked up a stick and went like that: "Oh!" and said "See, you are afraid." And he said, "No, I'm not afraid." So I went—and he was showing fear. Even dog is afraid, what to speak of man. The animals, when they are taken to be slaughtered, they cry. So animal is afraid of death, why not man? Everyone is afraid. Prabhupāda? They say, "Why you worry so much about death? We are living. We are enjoying life. Why do you worry about death?" Because we are intelligent. I love you. Therefore you'll die and you'll become a dog, so I am taking sympathy on you, that "Don't become a dog." Every human being is anxious. The example is given just like a child flying kite and is going this way, this way, on the roof. Now on the edge of the roof, so one gentleman standing, "Hey, you'll fall down." That is his duty. He says, "Why you are checking me?" (laughter) "Why you are checking me?" "Because I am human being. You are foolish boy. Therefore I am checking you." That is natural. Even a child is . . . or the boy is not his son, but because he is a gentleman, he wants to give him some protection. It is the duty of gentleman. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to the Indians that "You become perfect and go and give this knowledge to the rest of the world. They are all rascals." *It is para*-upakāra, humanitarian. You may say, "Why do you bother?" But as a human being, I bother. Every human being will do that. Kṛṣṇa comes, bothering Himself. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). "When these have become rascals, fools, I come, again advise them." So those who are servants of God, they are also doing the same thing, on behalf of God. Their position is therefore exalted. They should be worshiped as God because they are doing the work of God. They are not cheating public. (pause) So improve this farming very nicely. So the cows, they should be given as much as possible pasturing. If you simply drink little milk, and little vegetables, that will supply all vitamins. You do not require to take vitamin pills. No, there is no need. It has got all the vitamins. That is admitted. Vitamin A, D, in milk, they say so. And fruits, vitamin C. In this way, in fruits, vegetables, grains, milk, all vitamins are there. Śrīla Prabhupāda, if you take milk in other forms, like if you eat cheese, if you take curd or cheese, is it the same as drinking milk or . . . ? Yes. Any milk preparation. And if you have got enough milk, then keep it as ghee and open restaurant in the city. Give them nice samosā, kachorī. So in exchange you get money. You require little money, so that money will help you. Actually, in India before these British, the poorer class of men, they were simply keeping say a dozen of cows, and that was their means of livelihood, that's all. From the milk they'll eat the, that, little milk, then yogurt, then . . . what is called? It is another milk? Casein? Curd? Cheese? Buttermilk. Buttermilk, yes. And in this way, after drinking and eating so many things, whatever balance is there, churn it and they get ghee, and that ghee is kept in stock. On the market day, they go to the city and sell it. You'll find in Vṛndāvana, so many cultivators, they have brought ghee. So the inhabitants of the city, town, they require ghee, they purchase, and with that money they get some necessities, just like some oil or some spices, salt, like this, which is not available. In this way . . . How is it they are so keen on buffalo milk in India? Hmm? The Indians, they seem to prefer buffalo milk to cow milk. No, cow milk is not available, therefore buffalo milk contains more fat. But milk means cow's milk. What is the daily milk? About a thousand pounds. *Those who are meat*-eaters, why don't you inform them, when a cow dies, that "You can take it." That would be illegal. Why? Legal, illegal, that is their whims. Hmm. That's a fact. But that will get us in trouble. No, no. That is, they can give us. They are in power, they can do that. But legally . . . Yes, you are right. If they want to eat, let them take the dead cow. They take it. Free, they get without any price. They get the skin, they get flesh. Let them eat. We are not going to charge for the . . . You take it. Why maintain slaughterhouse? Take this. They even object if you let the animals, wild animals, eat the dead cow. Hmm? They even object if you let the wild animals eat. They want it buried. Oh, jackals or fox, if they come, they don't like it. The jackals like it. No, jackals like it, (laughter) but government . . . Government doesn't like it. *Government will like when the jackal takes your animal. They will eat it, they will not attack somebody else, because if they are not hungry they don't attack. Even tiger or any ferocious animal, if they are satisfied in hunger, no hunger, they don't attack. In the jungle, tiger and other animals, they live together. When they are hungry, they attack. So at least you can advertise that here is a cow, available free. Take it, those who are meat*-eaters. Take free without any price. *Most meat*-eaters would consider it disgusting. Hmm? *Most meat*-eaters would consider it disgusting to have to cut cow open. Disgusting? Yes. If they had to do it themselves they would consider it abominable. No, some of them can do it, make business. As there are butchers, as they are selling meat, they can take it, they'll make more profit. From slaughterhouse, if they purchase, they have to pay, but here they get free. The hotel man, they can get free. The tannery expert, he'll get this skin free. (break) I have seen they are eating the lobster, it is so decomposed it has become exactly like pus and they are eating. That argument is not valid. They cannot even eat the animal when it is fresh. They never eat beef fresh. It must age for at least three weeks, otherwise it is not tasty. (laughter) *I remember once there was one man, he was advertising himself . . . he was touring from one country to another, and he was advertising himself as being an expert meat*-eater. And he said . . . one of his statements was you couldn't eat a beefsteak until it had little white spots all over it; then it was ready to eat. White spot means decomposed. Bacteria. Fungus. Nānā yoni brāhmaṇa kare kadārya bhakṣaṇa kari' tāra janma adho pate yāya. Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can point out all the defects in their system, but then they say, "But there is no proof that such a perfect society has ever existed as you speak of. We have no evidence that such a perfect society exists." You can see, come and see with us. Show them our movie. Live in our New Vrindavan, you'll see. Then they say, "Well, that is all right for you, but that is not practical for everyone." Why not? We are human beings, you are human being. So what is not practical for you, our system, your system is also not practical for us. We cannot live in this way. Anyway, if you can maintain a perfect community of plain living, high thinking, that is sufficient. We do not canvass, but naturally they will see that this is convenient. After all, they are human beings. They are learning. So that is part of our business to preach, but to practice personally, that is our main business. To practice personally, that is our main business. Not that everyone will be preacher, but at least his own life be perfect. (looking at Brijbasi Spirit magazine?)What is this kijariya? I don't know if it's spelled right, Prabhupāda. Kī jaya. Kī jaya Kī jaya. Oh. It is misspelled? I'm no Sanskrit scholar, Prabhupāda. Guruban dhāma kī, that kī should be different. *K*-i? No, not kijaya. Kī one word, jaya one word. Just like Guruban one word, dhāma one word. Similarly kī one word, and jaya one. The spelling is correct though? *Spelling? Yes, but generally k*-i. I couldn't find it. I looked in many books, but I couldn't find kī jaya. Jaya is all right. What does kī mean? Kī means possessive, "of." Have you been receiving the past copies of the magazine, Prabhupāda? Hmm? Have you been receiving the past issues? Yes. Prabhupāda read the last issue in Hawaii. I remember you read through the last issue with a brown cover, in Hawaii. So how you make this double color? Twice printed? Three times. Red, black and yellow. *Vṛndāvana*-candra? No. *Vṛndāvana*-natha. Where? He is at the original farm where you stayed. This is the pūjārī. Very, very nice boy. He also makes that nice sandeśa. Rādhānatha. And who makes the siṅgāra? Kuladri. Kuladri makes those. He's doing some special thing to them. They are not giving me. (laughter) He's doing it tonight. He's doing it right now. You'll have it tonight. He's doing it now. Not night. They said you want it at night. When would you like it? Noon? Morning. Breakfast. Yes, it is very nice. You decorate Kṛṣṇa very nicely, then you'll forget the business of decorating your person. This is the effect. Because people are busy how to decorate himself. They are spending so much money. Huh? But if you decorate Kṛṣṇa nicely, you'll forget this propensity. This is the process. You also said if you decorate Kṛṣṇa, make Kṛṣṇa beautiful, your heart will become beautiful. Yes. It is not fashion; it is for our benefit. By seeing Kṛṣṇa beautifully decorated, he'll be satisfied. He'll have no more propensity, "Let me go to the market and find out some nice . . . (indistinct) . . . and decorate myself." Finished. So hundreds and thousands of people in the temple, by seeing Kṛṣṇa nicely decorated, he's satisfied. Everyone is satisfied. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra are more beautiful than the Deities in London. Oh, yes. (laughter) London differently. *They are very beautiful, but Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra . . . *Vṛndāvana*-candra is village beauty, and He is London beauty. He's town beauty. *I have not seen more beautiful anywhere than Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra. The jewelry . . . No. Every one is beautiful, but everyone praise our London Deity. *They have not seen Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra yet. Hmm? *They have not seen yet Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra. No, they have seen the picture. (pause) So how we can go there? I can take you. By car? By truck. By truck? (laughter) Cannot go by car? Difficult. I wouldn't want to try it in a car. Might get . . . the road is not bad, but it is not quite good enough for a car. The same way we have to go? Yes, but the road has been improved. So one day we can go. When it dries up. (pause) Your father is an architect, I see. No, he's working in the docks. Oh. His father came to see me in London. He used to chauffeur you in his car. He would drive you in his car from the airport. Yes. He is a good man, but he's not intelligent. (laughs) No, he'll profit by your activities. Kṛṣṇa will give concession to your family. Because you are Vaiṣṇava, everyone will get the profit. In London you said thirteen generations. Oh, yes. That is special concession. Hiraṇyakaśipu was given, such a demon. But your father is not a demon. He may be less intelligent, that is another thing. So Kṛṣṇa is prepared to give facility to a demon father of a devotee. Anyone who gets to render you personal service, Prabhupāda, they are most blessed, they are most fortunate. Anyway, you have got this jewel. Utilize it properly, make your life perfect. But we don't say that you starve, you unnecessarily give trouble to your body. No. Eat nicely but simply, and save time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our program. Nanda Mahārāja was a village man. Kṛṣṇa was a village boy. Kṛṣṇa could live in New Delhi, but He did not like that. He lived in Vṛndāvana, a village. But one difficulty is that it is not plain land. Little troublesome, but not very much troublesome. So is there any difficulty of not being a plain land? It makes farming more difficult on the hill. It takes more time, more work. Hard work. That is good. For cows there is no difficulty. No. In India, they call pahārhī when they are accustomed to hard work. Those who live on the Himalayan side, they have to work little hard, therefore they are pahārhī. You have accepted others' children also? Yes. Well, especially girls who have no husbands. There are quite a few here. *Anyway, you are so kind you don't refuse anybody. That is . . . who is so kind unless one is a Vaiṣṇava? Nobody is kind. Kṛpā*-sindhubhya eva ca (Śrī Vaiṣṇava Praṇāma). Kṛpā-sindhu, ocean of mercy, that is Vaiṣṇava. Never mind what you are; come here, stay, drink milk, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. The children are doing very nicely. Yes. And they will be our future community. Oh, yes. Practically it is impossible to teach these older boys how to use bulls and how to . . . it is very difficult. They cannot do it. But I think if we train the children. *Yes. Kṛṣṇa Himself did it. He was king's son, Nanda Mahārāja. In the childhood, He was taking care of the calves, and when He was grown up, little, He was taking care of the cows. Kṛṣṇa personally showed it. His father could have avoided, "No, no, You don't go. The servants will go." No. "You also go." Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma, both. Balarāma has got the plow, tilling ground, and Kṛṣṇa has got the flute to enchant the cows, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. They were not sitting idly, although Nanda Mahārāja could keep Them without any work. No. They worked, from the beginning of childhood. They would come in the evening and mother would take care of bathing Them, changing dress, and then give nice food, and after taking food They would go to rest. Whole day They worked. Kṛṣṇa never taught that you sit idly. No. Personally He did not do so, neither He taught anyone. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find, Find out this. What was that again, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Niyataḥ. You should read Bhagavad*-gītā so thoroughly for everything. That is good lawyer. Good lawyer means in the court, immediately give reference to the judge, "My Lordship, such and such law, under section . . . this is there." He's a good lawyer. Good lawyer means he immediately gives reference to the section on which he's talking. Immediately judgment is there. If there is previous authority and it is recorded in the lawbook, then he doesn't require to argue anymore; the evidence is there. Even in other court, if some judgment is there, they'll be accepted. This is the law. So a good lawyer means he gives references from different courts, the judgment makes easier. Instead of proceeding for a long time, he gives reference—"Here is the judgment, you see," and immediately . . . "Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean to keep a set of men lazy, who cannot work. That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone must work to his capacity, prescribed duties. They accuse us that we are escaping. Huh? What is that? We do not escape. We are always busy. Recently I had an opportunity to see a . . . (indistinct) . . . farm commune, and I was talking to one of the boys there about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they said, "You are under Swami Prabhupāda?" They said, "We have never seen Prabhupāda smile." I told them that "Yes, birth, death, disease and old age are nothing to smile about." There are so many pictures, smiling. (laughter) Actually, when you smile it's always beautiful. *They have not read your Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are smiling here. No. There are so many. Hmm. What is that? *Purport? "There are many pseudo meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set forth for kṣatriyas. Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart of a mundane man and free him from material contamination. So*-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others." *That is not the right way. Kṛṣṇa never said to Arjuna that "You haven't got to fight. You sit down, I shall do everything." He never said that. "You have to fight." Nimitta*-mātraṁ bhava savyaśacin (BG 11.33). "And the result is already created by Me, but you have to make a manifestation of fighting." Just like our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Within eight or ten years we have developed so much. Is it humanly possible? It is Kṛṣṇa's plan. But Kṛṣṇa says that "You go and preach. Take the credit." Yes. It is His plan. Actually everything is done by Kṛṣṇa. He gives the credit to His devotee, that's all. You know the history of the Detroit temple? (laughs) A little bit. Not too much. Detroit temple, it was, that building was constructed at a cost of two million dollars, say some fifty years, sixty years ago. And we purchased it at three hundred thousand dollars. So when they said that there is a nice house, so I told, "Let me go immediately." So I went there and talked with the proprietor. So I liked it very much; it is a wonderful palace. So he asked $350,000. So I talked with him and asked some concession. Then I last bid again, "I'll give you cash, three hundred thousand." So he said, "Yes, I accept." (chuckling) There was no money. (laughter) So the Bombay purchase, you know, it was simply speculation. So Kṛṣṇa is giving us. For a karmī, it is not possible, but Kṛṣṇa gives us all facilities. You have been in that palace, Detroit? Very, very nice. Perhaps the best in our Society, huh? Without a doubt. London, that is also nice, but not as nice. The building is so strong, and the rooms are so palatial, big, big rooms. One room of this size of the whole . . . How big is the temple room? The temple room is not so big—fifty feet long and about thirty feet wide. Bigger than here, double. Very nice garden. Very nice garden, and on the riverside. Can you bathe in the river? Sometimes. Yes, if you like, you can bathe. You can drive a boat in it underneath the house. There's a dock. It's like a garage. All the rich people come by in their yachts all day long and wave, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Śrīla Prabhupāda said we should put a sign up on the boat, that they can drive their boat in and take prasādam and read the books. Yes. And invite them, give that signboard: "Please come, read our books and take prasādam." Gradually, they will come. Very big garden. Seven peacocks. Is it stone? Huh? What is it, the building is stone or . . .? Oh, yes. Stone, marble. With golden work. The bathrooms, even the soap dishes are gold. The soap dishes, the toilet roll holder, everything is gold. Gold wallpaper. One floor is like this. Very costly house. They told me that the prasādam room floor alone, three hundred thousand dollars to build. And you have gotten the whole thing. Everywhere it is so beautiful, nice, strong, and quite suitable for our purpose. Everyone is living. Still, big, big three, four rooms, not yet utilized. And climate also is nice, at the present moment, huh? Yes. I think the same climate here. Yes, same as here. There was a large swimming pool. Every afternoon all the . . . Yes, besides that, there is a swimming pool. We would go out and have water fights. And they have kept five peacocks. Seven. Seven. They are very free moving, here and there, and chanting. They stay in the grounds? They never leave the grounds. They sleep up in one tree. They are free to move from one tree to another, but they don't go outside. Only complaint, they are eating flowers. Yes, they eat all the flowers. They are also trained; they are not afraid. They are sitting, you go, they are not afraid. They have been trained up that "We are at home." That animals and any birds can be trained. Just like these cows, they know that all of you are friends. Animals can understand. Even if you can make friends with the tigers and lions. Yes. I have seen it. In that New York exhibition, one man was showing me. He was embracing the lion and playing like dog. I've seen it. That used to be a circus trick as well. They used to put their heads in the lion's mouth. Yes. They keep them well fed. As long as the lion is well fed, you can put your head in his mouth, but if you don't feed him, then it is dangerous. Yes, that comes, if he's animal. (laughter) They can understand that he's giving you food, he's my friend. The love, friendship, everything is there, even in the animals. Except God consciousness. That is possible in human life. But animal also can become God conscious by association. Sometimes I've heard you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that love only exists between similar categories. Similar categories, the love is very conducive. Otherwise, love is possible with any living entity. The central object of love is Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. The animals love Kṛṣṇa, the human being love Kṛṣṇa, the trees love Kṛṣṇa, the water love Kṛṣṇa—everyone love Kṛṣṇa: central point. That is the perfection of love. The Deity is kept in the same house? Original, that . . . But it is changed. The house is changed since you were there. Oh. "Changed" means? The whole downstairs has been made into a big area. But I see the marble pillar? Yeah, it has a marble altar. Oh. The same altar? No, no. That is the beginning of New Vrindavan. Yes. (pause) Hmm. All right. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end) Conversation A -- June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA So, what news? Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we've distributed about 70,000 magazines so far this month. So I think we'll reach 100,000 in this month. Even though we are getting much harassment from the police, still we are going on. Why harassment? What is the fault? (break) They are mostly godless, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They see us as a nuisance to the public. We are threatening their sense gratification. What fault did Prahlāda have? Sense gratification, we are refusing them? We are threatening their sense gratification. Hmm. So it is bad? It is bad for their way of life. Just like Prahlāda was preaching to his school friends. And I think almost 20,000 big books so far. "So far" means? Up to this month, for the first three weeks. Means there's one more, one more week. Nine days left. What is your party doing? What is what? Your party, selling books? I don't know what the figures are. No, your line is this farming. Per capita, we distribute more books. Huh? Per man, we distribute more books than they do. I think per man we distribute more than anybody in ISKCON. And still they are maintaining this farm. And building very nice buildings. Hmm? Very nice projects they are building. This project should be advanced—plain living, high thinking. I think we'll take around that film of New Vrindavan to all the colleges this year when we are preaching, and show it to the students as our practical example. This is nasty civilization, unnecessarily increasing necessities of life. Anartha. We would not have understood you if you had said that eight, ten years ago. Hmm? Ten years ago I know I could not have understood you if you had said that. Now I understand a little bit. *Now suppose these electric light. So, crude form of light, we grow some castor seed, everything from the earth. This also you are getting from earth, petroleum, and running on machine, and electricity is generated. But really you are getting the impetus from the earth. As soon as the petroleum supply is stopped, everything stopped. But for this purpose you have to search out petroleum from the middle of ocean, boring. Therefore it is ugra*-karma. The purpose is that you grow some castor seed, press it, get oil, put in any pot, and one wick, the light is there. Light is there. So even understanding that you have improved the lighting system, but that is not the only necessity of my life. But to improve from the castor seed lamp, castor oil lamp, to this electricity, you have to work so hard. You have to go to the middle of ocean and drill it and get out petroleum and . . . in this way your real business of life is finished. The energy and the intelligence you got for your self-realization or your, this precarious position, constantly dying and taking birth in various species of life, this is your problem, and this was to be solved in human life, you have got advanced intelligence. But that intelligence is utilized from castor seed lamp to the electric lamp. That's all. Just try to understand. What is that improvement? And for this improving from castor seed oil lamp to electricity lamp, you forget your real business. You lost yourself. This civilization is going on. This is called māyā. For some fictitious happiness you lose your whole purpose of life. It is difficult to understand, but the fact is there. But you are under the control of nature; you have to give up this body. All right, you make very nice arrangement to live here, nature will not allow you to live. You must die. And after death you are going to get another body. So in this body, working for high grade electricity lamp, you work so hard, have got your own business, and next life, by the laws of nature if you get the body of a dog, then what is the benefit? That you cannot check. What is the answer? Hmm? Simple living, high thinking. Huh? Simple living. No, here is the charge. Now what is your answer? In this life you are living very comfortably, next life if I'm going to be a dog, then this is the charge. Now how this class of men will answer it? Can he deny that he's not going to be a dog? He says he doesn't believe it. *You believe or not believe. Just like this child, it is boy, he does not know anything. But I know, his mother knows, his father knows that he's going to be young man. If he says, "No, I am not going to be young man," that is childish. That is childish. But the father, mother, friends know that the boy is going to grow a young man, so he should be educated and he should be properly situated. That is the guardian's business. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. So that he doesn't know, that does not mean it is not fact. So similarly, if rascals say, "I don't believe it," that's not a fact. He is a rascal, mad, he may say so, but that is not the fact. Karaṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgasya ( BG 13.22). Real fact is that he'll have to accept a body according to the quality of development. But what if they say that "Actually, this life of growing the castor seed is very difficult, farming is very difficult. It is easier to go to the factory for eight hours, and then I come home with my money and I enjoy." No, you enjoy, but by enjoying, if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Your real business is that you have got this human form of body to improve your next life. You are going to have a next life. Suppose you are going to be a dog. Is that success? So you must know the science that instead of becoming dog, how shall you become God. That is intelligence. Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to dig a well? Huh? Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to . . . *No, you require lamp. So you finish that lamping business as simply as possible. In the balance time you save, you improve your self*-realization. That is the life. Just like this child, he wants to play. He does not go to school, does not take an education, and he improves type of toils, toys, he's engaged in improved type of football playing, and . . . then is that very good intelligence? But nobody works longer hours than the farmer. Huh? No one works harder than the farmer. The farmer has to work very hard. No, our point is that if you think that electricity improvement is better than farming, we have no objection. But if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? No, of course not. *That is our point. Our real business is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So simply for improving the condition of life, the necessities of life, if I forget my real business, is that intelligent? Therefore it is said duṣkṛtinaḥ. Kṛti means merit. But merit is being utilized for sinful activities. Take for example the meat*-eaters. When man was . . . the uncivilized man is still there. In the uncivilized way they are living in the jungle. They require to eat something. So they stone over an animal going, and the animal dies, and then they eat. Now instead of killing the animal by stoning, if you have discovered scientific machine in the slaughterhouse to kill the animal, is that improvement? If you think this is advancement, "Now we have discovered very technical machine. Instead of stoning one animal, killing, it takes so much time, hundreds and thousands of animals you can kill in one hour," do you think that is improvement? That is going on. They think this is improvement. When we were uncivilized, we were stoning some animal and killing and eating, now we are . . . business is the same—animal killing and eating—but we have improved the machine how to kill. This is going on. This is going on as advancement of civilization. Hmm? What is your answer? Is that advancement of civilization? Now you are civilized, instead of killing the animal, you just take milk from it without killing and make so many nice preparations, and that is civilization. But killing is sinful. You have no right to kill any animal, even an ant, because you cannot give life to anyone. It is nature's law, God's law. So infringement on the laws of nature or God, it is sinful activities. So you are utilizing your merit for this sinful activity. Therefore it is called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Merit is there, but it is utilized for sinful activities. That is defect of the modern civilization. Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember once you said . . . These questions that "I believe," "I don't believe," you are rascal; *what is the meaning of your believe or not believing? You are, after all, a rascal. Just like a child will say something, "I don't believe." The mother will say, "You are rascal. You must go to school." So rascals believe or not believe, what is the meaning? Mūḍha. It is the law of nature. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). The example is given that this boy will change his body, dehāntara-prāptir. He'll become a young boy, young man. This body will not remain. What is the difficulty to understand, "Yes, this body will not remain"? While he came out of the womb of the mother, that was another body. But these rascals, they do not understand it. It is very difficult to deal with the rascals, that's a fact, but . . . whatever they are doing is all rascaldom, that's all. And forgetting their real business. So your son, does he believe that he's going to be a young man? (asks child) You believe? (laughs) Huh? What is your . . . I remember once when we were staying at John Lennon's estate, you said to me . . . Huh? At John Lennon's estate, remember? In London. You said to me, the tractor, you said, this is the cause of all the trouble. That it took all the work from the young men, and they went to the city and became entangled in the sense gratification in the cities. So I've noticed in the city there's much more passion, but living in the country is simpler. Yes. Passion there must be. When you have got the facility, naturally we are lusty, and we have got the facility, then we take to it. The country is more peaceful. It's easier to think of spiritual life. *Yes. Less disease. Less brain*-taxing. Everything is less. So balance time, utilize for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if you have got temple, it is very happy life. Just for your food work little, and balance time engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is ideal life. (pause) Just see minute fibers on the flower. Can anyone manufacture this? So small fibers. And how brilliant it is. If you study only one flower, you become God conscious. There is a machine which we call nature. From that machine, everything is coming. But how machine is perfect? And who has discovered this machine? In London you said they do not know that the butterflies and flowers are painted, but Kṛṣṇa paints them with thought. *Yes. How you can expect without painting it has come so beautiful? This is foolishness, "nature." What is this nature? Everything is being done by the machine of Kṛṣṇa. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (CC Madhya 13.65, purport). Anyway, improve this mode of life. Live in open place, produce your food grain, produce your milk, save time, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Plain living, high thinking—ideal life. Artificial necessities of life do increase your so*-called comfort, but if you forget your real business, that is suicidal. We want to stop this suicidal policy. We don't want to stop the modern advancement of technology, although the so-called advancement technology is suicidal. But we don't talk of this. (laughter) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore given a simple formula—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even in your technological factories, you can chant. What is the wrong there? You go on pulling on with your machine and chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa. They know that if people take up the chanting, gradually they will give up this technology. That is, of course. You are actually putting the seeds of their destruction. *Yes. No, what is destruction? It is, rather, construction. (laughter) He'll live. He'll live forever. This is destruction. You have to change body. But our method, this tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9): you don't get anymore material body. So that is saving. And without this? Tathā dehāntara*-praptir. Then you have to accept another body. So which is better: to accept another material body or no more accepting material body? Which is better? But as soon as you accept material body, you have to suffer. Material body means suffering. So that requires knowledge. If we finish our suffering up to this body, that is intelligent. And if we create another body for suffering, is that intelligent? That you have to . . . unless you understand Kṛṣṇa, you have to accept. There is no alternative. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They are so dull they cannot understand this simple truth, that as the child, boy, is accepting another body, we have to accept another body. They cannot understand. So dull brain. It will take five hundred years to teach them this very simple fact. Huh? Their education is so advanced. (laughter) Therefore mūḍha, the word is used. So-called education keeps them as an ass. Cannot understand the simple truth. (pause) So everyone is getting milk? How much? As much as they want. As much as they want, then jaundice. (laughter) Too much is not good. They may take minimum half pound per head. Minimum. Minimum. And maximum one pound. Not more than that. But "Because there is enough, let us eat," no. That is not good. But children must get at least one pound milk. If they drink more milk they become stout and strong. They get more than one pound. They get at least two pounds. Then their life is built up strong, and nice brain to understand. Do they not see the benefit of the society, that we are not killing children, we are maintaining them with sufficient milk? Is it not better civilization? And they are, for fear of overpopulation, they are killing. The mother is killing the child. Is that civilization? *But in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that those in the mode of ignorance, they take irreligion to be religion and religion to be irreligion. *No, religion . . . there is no religion for them, but there is no morality even. Here we are having so many children. We don't brag that "We cannot maintain these children. Kill them." We never say that. Never mind. Let them be trained up as Kṛṣṇa conscious, live comfortably, take milk. So which is better civilization? Running with motorcar, put*-put-put-put-put-put-put-put and killing child? Is that civilization? Most of these children are not even our own. They have been taken in from . . . Just see, that means we welcome. . . . mothers without fathers, and . . . That means we welcome and they kill. So why do they not find the distinction between this civilization, that civilization? They have no arguments against this, except that they want to be free. In colleges . . . But they are not free. That means they are fools. They are not free, still they are thinking "free." That is foolishness. If you are actually free, that is another thing, (laughs) but you are not free. You are responsible for even a minute work or misdeed, you are responsible. Where is your freedom? That freedom means ahaṅkāra vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). The rascal, foolish, bewildered, he's thinking that he's free. Where is your freedom? Nature is working. If you are free, then why you are dying? If you are free, then do not die. Nobody wants to die. What is the answer? They will give some nonsense answer. What is that nonsense? In nonsense there must be some sense also. I think they would like both. Like the Christians, they would like to enjoy sinful life and at the same time live forever. No, we don't talk of any sect; we are talking of the general principles. Their tendency is . . . Now the people's tendency, general tendency is, unless he's a madman, nobody is prepared to die. But he has to die. "But I accept death as part of life." Part of life? "Yes, it's natural. So I don't . . . I'm not afraid." Then when there is some sign of death, why do you go away? Sit down and die. (laughter) You don't accept that. You are talking foolishly. You don't want to die. That is a fact. You are talking foolishly, that "I accept it," but you don't accept it. That is the fact. But because you have no other way, then you say, "I accept it." The real fact is this, that you do not wish to die, but you find that there is no other alternative, "Then I accept it. All right." So you can talk like that, foolishly, but intelligent man, you do not want to die. One time, one boy said that. So as soon as he said it, I picked up a stick and went like that: "Oh!" and said "See, you are afraid." And he said, "No, I'm not afraid." So I went—and he was showing fear. Even dog is afraid, what to speak of man. The animals, when they are taken to be slaughtered, they cry. So animal is afraid of death, why not man? Everyone is afraid. Prabhupāda? They say, "Why you worry so much about death? We are living. We are enjoying life. Why do you worry about death?" Because we are intelligent. I love you. Therefore you'll die and you'll become a dog, so I am taking sympathy on you, that "Don't become a dog." Every human being is anxious. The example is given just like a child flying kite and is going this way, this way, on the roof. Now on the edge of the roof, so one gentleman standing, "Hey, you'll fall down." That is his duty. He says, "Why you are checking me?" (laughter) "Why you are checking me?" "Because I am human being. You are foolish boy. Therefore I am checking you." That is natural. Even a child is . . . or the boy is not his son, but because he is a gentleman, he wants to give him some protection. It is the duty of gentleman. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to the Indians that "You become perfect and go and give this knowledge to the rest of the world. They are all rascals." *It is para*-upakāra, humanitarian. You may say, "Why do you bother?" But as a human being, I bother. Every human being will do that. Kṛṣṇa comes, bothering Himself. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). "When these have become rascals, fools, I come, again advise them." So those who are servants of God, they are also doing the same thing, on behalf of God. Their position is therefore exalted. They should be worshiped as God because they are doing the work of God. They are not cheating public. (pause) So improve this farming very nicely. So the cows, they should be given as much as possible pasturing. If you simply drink little milk, and little vegetables, that will supply all vitamins. You do not require to take vitamin pills. No, there is no need. It has got all the vitamins. That is admitted. Vitamin A, D, in milk, they say so. And fruits, vitamin C. In this way, in fruits, vegetables, grains, milk, all vitamins are there. Śrīla Prabhupāda, if you take milk in other forms, like if you eat cheese, if you take curd or cheese, is it the same as drinking milk or . . . ? Yes. Any milk preparation. And if you have got enough milk, then keep it as ghee and open restaurant in the city. Give them nice samosā, kachorī. So in exchange you get money. You require little money, so that money will help you. Actually, in India before these British, the poorer class of men, they were simply keeping say a dozen of cows, and that was their means of livelihood, that's all. From the milk they'll eat the, that, little milk, then yogurt, then . . . what is called? It is another milk? Casein? Curd? Cheese? Buttermilk. Buttermilk, yes. And in this way, after drinking and eating so many things, whatever balance is there, churn it and they get ghee, and that ghee is kept in stock. On the market day, they go to the city and sell it. You'll find in Vṛndāvana, so many cultivators, they have brought ghee. So the inhabitants of the city, town, they require ghee, they purchase, and with that money they get some necessities, just like some oil or some spices, salt, like this, which is not available. In this way . . . How is it they are so keen on buffalo milk in India? Hmm? The Indians, they seem to prefer buffalo milk to cow milk. No, cow milk is not available, therefore buffalo milk contains more fat. But milk means cow's milk. What is the daily milk? About a thousand pounds. *Those who are meat*-eaters, why don't you inform them, when a cow dies, that "You can take it." That would be illegal. Why? Legal, illegal, that is their whims. Hmm. That's a fact. But that will get us in trouble. No, no. That is, they can give us. They are in power, they can do that. But legally . . . Yes, you are right. If they want to eat, let them take the dead cow. They take it. Free, they get without any price. They get the skin, they get flesh. Let them eat. We are not going to charge for the . . . You take it. Why maintain slaughterhouse? Take this. They even object if you let the animals, wild animals, eat the dead cow. Hmm? They even object if you let the wild animals eat. They want it buried. Oh, jackals or fox, if they come, they don't like it. The jackals like it. No, jackals like it, (laughter) but government . . . Government doesn't like it. *Government will like when the jackal takes your animal. They will eat it, they will not attack somebody else, because if they are not hungry they don't attack. Even tiger or any ferocious animal, if they are satisfied in hunger, no hunger, they don't attack. In the jungle, tiger and other animals, they live together. When they are hungry, they attack. So at least you can advertise that here is a cow, available free. Take it, those who are meat*-eaters. Take free without any price. *Most meat*-eaters would consider it disgusting. Hmm? *Most meat*-eaters would consider it disgusting to have to cut cow open. Disgusting? Yes. If they had to do it themselves they would consider it abominable. No, some of them can do it, make business. As there are butchers, as they are selling meat, they can take it, they'll make more profit. From slaughterhouse, if they purchase, they have to pay, but here they get free. The hotel man, they can get free. The tannery expert, he'll get this skin free. (break) I have seen they are eating the lobster, it is so decomposed it has become exactly like pus and they are eating. That argument is not valid. They cannot even eat the animal when it is fresh. They never eat beef fresh. It must age for at least three weeks, otherwise it is not tasty. (laughter) *I remember once there was one man, he was advertising himself . . . he was touring from one country to another, and he was advertising himself as being an expert meat*-eater. And he said . . . one of his statements was you couldn't eat a beefsteak until it had little white spots all over it; then it was ready to eat. White spot means decomposed. Bacteria. Fungus. Nānā yoni brāhmaṇa kare kadārya bhakṣaṇa kari' tāra janma adho pate yāya. Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can point out all the defects in their system, but then they say, "But there is no proof that such a perfect society has ever existed as you speak of. We have no evidence that such a perfect society exists." You can see, come and see with us. Show them our movie. Live in our New Vrindavan, you'll see. Then they say, "Well, that is all right for you, but that is not practical for everyone." Why not? We are human beings, you are human being. So what is not practical for you, our system, your system is also not practical for us. We cannot live in this way. Anyway, if you can maintain a perfect community of plain living, high thinking, that is sufficient. We do not canvass, but naturally they will see that this is convenient. After all, they are human beings. They are learning. So that is part of our business to preach, but to practice personally, that is our main business. To practice personally, that is our main business. Not that everyone will be preacher, but at least his own life be perfect. (looking at Brijbasi Spirit magazine?)What is this kijariya? I don't know if it's spelled right, Prabhupāda. Kī jaya. Kī jaya Kī jaya. Oh. It is misspelled? I'm no Sanskrit scholar, Prabhupāda. Guruban dhāma kī, that kī should be different. *K*-i? No, not kijaya. Kī one word, jaya one word. Just like Guruban one word, dhāma one word. Similarly kī one word, and jaya one. The spelling is correct though? *Spelling? Yes, but generally k*-i. I couldn't find it. I looked in many books, but I couldn't find kī jaya. Jaya is all right. What does kī mean? Kī means possessive, "of." Have you been receiving the past copies of the magazine, Prabhupāda? Hmm? Have you been receiving the past issues? Yes. Prabhupāda read the last issue in Hawaii. I remember you read through the last issue with a brown cover, in Hawaii. So how you make this double color? Twice printed? Three times. Red, black and yellow. *Vṛndāvana*-candra? No. *Vṛndāvana*-natha. Where? He is at the original farm where you stayed. This is the pūjārī. Very, very nice boy. He also makes that nice sandeśa. Rādhānatha. And who makes the siṅgāra? Kuladri. Kuladri makes those. He's doing some special thing to them. They are not giving me. (laughter) He's doing it tonight. He's doing it right now. You'll have it tonight. He's doing it now. Not night. They said you want it at night. When would you like it? Noon? Morning. Breakfast. Yes, it is very nice. You decorate Kṛṣṇa very nicely, then you'll forget the business of decorating your person. This is the effect. Because people are busy how to decorate himself. They are spending so much money. Huh? But if you decorate Kṛṣṇa nicely, you'll forget this propensity. This is the process. You also said if you decorate Kṛṣṇa, make Kṛṣṇa beautiful, your heart will become beautiful. Yes. It is not fashion; it is for our benefit. By seeing Kṛṣṇa beautifully decorated, he'll be satisfied. He'll have no more propensity, "Let me go to the market and find out some nice . . . (indistinct) . . . and decorate myself." Finished. So hundreds and thousands of people in the temple, by seeing Kṛṣṇa nicely decorated, he's satisfied. Everyone is satisfied. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra are more beautiful than the Deities in London. Oh, yes. (laughter) London differently. *They are very beautiful, but Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra . . . *Vṛndāvana*-candra is village beauty, and He is London beauty. He's town beauty. *I have not seen more beautiful anywhere than Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra. The jewelry . . . No. Every one is beautiful, but everyone praise our London Deity. *They have not seen Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra yet. Hmm? *They have not seen yet Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra. No, they have seen the picture. (pause) So how we can go there? I can take you. By car? By truck. By truck? (laughter) Cannot go by car? Difficult. I wouldn't want to try it in a car. Might get . . . the road is not bad, but it is not quite good enough for a car. The same way we have to go? Yes, but the road has been improved. So one day we can go. When it dries up. (pause) Your father is an architect, I see. No, he's working in the docks. Oh. His father came to see me in London. He used to chauffeur you in his car. He would drive you in his car from the airport. Yes. He is a good man, but he's not intelligent. (laughs) No, he'll profit by your activities. Kṛṣṇa will give concession to your family. Because you are Vaiṣṇava, everyone will get the profit. In London you said thirteen generations. Oh, yes. That is special concession. Hiraṇyakaśipu was given, such a demon. But your father is not a demon. He may be less intelligent, that is another thing. So Kṛṣṇa is prepared to give facility to a demon father of a devotee. Anyone who gets to render you personal service, Prabhupāda, they are most blessed, they are most fortunate. Anyway, you have got this jewel. Utilize it properly, make your life perfect. But we don't say that you starve, you unnecessarily give trouble to your body. No. Eat nicely but simply, and save time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our program. Nanda Mahārāja was a village man. Kṛṣṇa was a village boy. Kṛṣṇa could live in New Delhi, but He did not like that. He lived in Vṛndāvana, a village. But one difficulty is that it is not plain land. Little troublesome, but not very much troublesome. So is there any difficulty of not being a plain land? It makes farming more difficult on the hill. It takes more time, more work. Hard work. That is good. For cows there is no difficulty. No. In India, they call pahārhī when they are accustomed to hard work. Those who live on the Himalayan side, they have to work little hard, therefore they are pahārhī. You have accepted others' children also? Yes. Well, especially girls who have no husbands. There are quite a few here. *Anyway, you are so kind you don't refuse anybody. That is . . . who is so kind unless one is a Vaiṣṇava? Nobody is kind. Kṛpā*-sindhubhya eva ca (Śrī Vaiṣṇava Praṇāma). Kṛpā-sindhu, ocean of mercy, that is Vaiṣṇava. Never mind what you are; come here, stay, drink milk, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. The children are doing very nicely. Yes. And they will be our future community. Oh, yes. Practically it is impossible to teach these older boys how to use bulls and how to . . . it is very difficult. They cannot do it. But I think if we train the children. *Yes. Kṛṣṇa Himself did it. He was king's son, Nanda Mahārāja. In the childhood, He was taking care of the calves, and when He was grown up, little, He was taking care of the cows. Kṛṣṇa personally showed it. His father could have avoided, "No, no, You don't go. The servants will go." No. "You also go." Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma, both. Balarāma has got the plow, tilling ground, and Kṛṣṇa has got the flute to enchant the cows, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. They were not sitting idly, although Nanda Mahārāja could keep Them without any work. No. They worked, from the beginning of childhood. They would come in the evening and mother would take care of bathing Them, changing dress, and then give nice food, and after taking food They would go to rest. Whole day They worked. Kṛṣṇa never taught that you sit idly. No. Personally He did not do so, neither He taught anyone. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find, Find out this. What was that again, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Niyataḥ. You should read Bhagavad*-gītā so thoroughly for everything. That is good lawyer. Good lawyer means in the court, immediately give reference to the judge, "My Lordship, such and such law, under section . . . this is there." He's a good lawyer. Good lawyer means he immediately gives reference to the section on which he's talking. Immediately judgment is there. If there is previous authority and it is recorded in the lawbook, then he doesn't require to argue anymore; the evidence is there. Even in other court, if some judgment is there, they'll be accepted. This is the law. So a good lawyer means he gives references from different courts, the judgment makes easier. Instead of proceeding for a long time, he gives reference—"Here is the judgment, you see," and immediately . . . "Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean to keep a set of men lazy, who cannot work. That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone must work to his capacity, prescribed duties. They accuse us that we are escaping. Huh? What is that? We do not escape. We are always busy. Recently I had an opportunity to see a . . . (indistinct) . . . farm commune, and I was talking to one of the boys there about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they said, "You are under Swami Prabhupāda?" They said, "We have never seen Prabhupāda smile." I told them that "Yes, birth, death, disease and old age are nothing to smile about." There are so many pictures, smiling. (laughter) Actually, when you smile it's always beautiful. *They have not read your Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are smiling here. No. There are so many. Hmm. What is that? *Purport? "There are many pseudo meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set forth for kṣatriyas. Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart of a mundane man and free him from material contamination. So*-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others." *That is not the right way. Kṛṣṇa never said to Arjuna that "You haven't got to fight. You sit down, I shall do everything." He never said that. "You have to fight." Nimitta*-mātraṁ bhava savyaśacin (BG 11.33). "And the result is already created by Me, but you have to make a manifestation of fighting." Just like our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Within eight or ten years we have developed so much. Is it humanly possible? It is Kṛṣṇa's plan. But Kṛṣṇa says that "You go and preach. Take the credit." Yes. It is His plan. Actually everything is done by Kṛṣṇa. He gives the credit to His devotee, that's all. You know the history of the Detroit temple? (laughs) A little bit. Not too much. Detroit temple, it was, that building was constructed at a cost of two million dollars, say some fifty years, sixty years ago. And we purchased it at three hundred thousand dollars. So when they said that there is a nice house, so I told, "Let me go immediately." So I went there and talked with the proprietor. So I liked it very much; it is a wonderful palace. So he asked $350,000. So I talked with him and asked some concession. Then I last bid again, "I'll give you cash, three hundred thousand." So he said, "Yes, I accept." (chuckling) There was no money. (laughter) So the Bombay purchase, you know, it was simply speculation. So Kṛṣṇa is giving us. For a karmī, it is not possible, but Kṛṣṇa gives us all facilities. You have been in that palace, Detroit? Very, very nice. Perhaps the best in our Society, huh? Without a doubt. London, that is also nice, but not as nice. The building is so strong, and the rooms are so palatial, big, big rooms. One room of this size of the whole . . . How big is the temple room? The temple room is not so big—fifty feet long and about thirty feet wide. Bigger than here, double. Very nice garden. Very nice garden, and on the riverside. Can you bathe in the river? Sometimes. Yes, if you like, you can bathe. You can drive a boat in it underneath the house. There's a dock. It's like a garage. All the rich people come by in their yachts all day long and wave, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Śrīla Prabhupāda said we should put a sign up on the boat, that they can drive their boat in and take prasādam and read the books. Yes. And invite them, give that signboard: "Please come, read our books and take prasādam." Gradually, they will come. Very big garden. Seven peacocks. Is it stone? Huh? What is it, the building is stone or . . .? Oh, yes. Stone, marble. With golden work. The bathrooms, even the soap dishes are gold. The soap dishes, the toilet roll holder, everything is gold. Gold wallpaper. One floor is like this. Very costly house. They told me that the prasādam room floor alone, three hundred thousand dollars to build. And you have gotten the whole thing. Everywhere it is so beautiful, nice, strong, and quite suitable for our purpose. Everyone is living. Still, big, big three, four rooms, not yet utilized. And climate also is nice, at the present moment, huh? Yes. I think the same climate here. Yes, same as here. There was a large swimming pool. Every afternoon all the . . . Yes, besides that, there is a swimming pool. We would go out and have water fights. And they have kept five peacocks. Seven. Seven. They are very free moving, here and there, and chanting. They stay in the grounds? They never leave the grounds. They sleep up in one tree. They are free to move from one tree to another, but they don't go outside. Only complaint, they are eating flowers. Yes, they eat all the flowers. They are also trained; they are not afraid. They are sitting, you go, they are not afraid. They have been trained up that "We are at home." That animals and any birds can be trained. Just like these cows, they know that all of you are friends. Animals can understand. Even if you can make friends with the tigers and lions. Yes. I have seen it. In that New York exhibition, one man was showing me. He was embracing the lion and playing like dog. I've seen it. That used to be a circus trick as well. They used to put their heads in the lion's mouth. Yes. They keep them well fed. As long as the lion is well fed, you can put your head in his mouth, but if you don't feed him, then it is dangerous. Yes, that comes, if he's animal. (laughter) They can understand that he's giving you food, he's my friend. The love, friendship, everything is there, even in the animals. Except God consciousness. That is possible in human life. But animal also can become God conscious by association. Sometimes I've heard you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that love only exists between similar categories. Similar categories, the love is very conducive. Otherwise, love is possible with any living entity. The central object of love is Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. The animals love Kṛṣṇa, the human being love Kṛṣṇa, the trees love Kṛṣṇa, the water love Kṛṣṇa—everyone love Kṛṣṇa: central point. That is the perfection of love. The Deity is kept in the same house? Original, that . . . But it is changed. The house is changed since you were there. Oh. "Changed" means? The whole downstairs has been made into a big area. But I see the marble pillar? Yeah, it has a marble altar. Oh. The same altar? No, no. That is the beginning of New Vrindavan. Yes. (pause) Hmm. All right. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end) Conversation -- June 25, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA *(Conversation and Reading from Srimad*-Bhagavatam Canto 1 and 12) *These are publicity for the Ratha*-yātrā. This is the article about the building, how it's the most attractive real estate near Cleveland. It's in the paint and flowers and gardens. This year's? Yes. People would drive by the temple, Prabhupāda, and just look. They would drive by and look once, drive a little further and look twice and three times. But San Francisco we haven't got our temple. What's that? We haven't got any temple. No. We used the photograph. We made a publicity notice, a news release, and they printed it directly. It was easier for them. The picture is of San Francisco, but the festival was in Cleveland. There is no date? Hmm? Maybe not in that one article. Other articles, there are dates. Is this Cleveland? *Yes. There are many skyscrapers, tall buildings. There are many tall buildings, and people were looking out at the Ratha*-yātrā cart and at Lord Jagannātha. (looking through articles) Here, the date, time is. *We have found, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the buses are going to many of these cities, they have never seen our devotees, because when we go, we are dressed like they are, for distributing the books. So now the boys are going again in the streets with a kīrtana party once a week downtown, and they have all done front*-page newspaper articles, because although they have been reading the books, they have never seen the devotees in many years. I think festivals like this . . . Yes. . . . in all these cities would be very advantageous, and all the book distribution . . . *And therefore I said that introduce Ratha*-yātrā in every city. Every city. At least wherever we have got our centers. Bring Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. They have received some testimonial from Indian . . . Oh, yes. Indian reviews? You can open this fan. (fan turned on) I don't want, but . . . *Prabhupāda, how should we have these Ratha*-yātrā festivals? Should they be big? Should they be big festivals? Should I plan on having three carts next year, or just one, or a small cart? *As you can afford. Minimum one cart. Otherwise, three carts. In India the Ratha*-yātrā festival is going on, according to rough estimate, for the last two thousand years, and the crowd never diminishes. One secretary of Parliament or something like that . . . *Śrī R. Subramanian, M.A., Deputy Director Research, Lok Sabha Secretariat, National Parliament, New Delhi. Should I read it? "A strange feature of the modern world is that in spite of vast advances in science and technology and the establishment of a good number of institutions for human welfare, mankind has not found true peace and happiness. Knowledge of material sciences and arts has increased tremendously in recent times, and millions of volumes on each fill the libraries the world over. People and leaders in every country are generally well versed in these arts and sciences, but despite their efforts, human society everywhere continues to be in turmoil and distress. The reason is not far to see. It is that they have not learned the science of God, the most fundamental of every other art and science, and fail to apply it to the facts of life. The need of the hour is, therefore, to do it if mankind is not only to survive but flower into a glorious existence. To teach this science of God to people everywhere and to aid them in their progress and development towards the real goal of life, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the most eminently fitted. In fact, this great ancient work of Vyāsa will fill this need of the modern times, for it is a cultural presentation for the respiritualization of the entire human society. His Divine Grace Śrīla A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the founder-ācārya of the ISKCON movement, has taken it upon himself, in addition to his ceaseless travels and other multifarious activities in the service of the Lord, the stupendous task of translating this Sanskrit work into English in about sixty volumes for the welfare and happiness of mankind. It is really astonishing how he is able to do this single-handed, and when one comes to think of this, apart from his other great literary works, one is tempted to wonder if he is not the same Vyāsa Muni reborn today to adapt his own old work (devotees respond enthusiatically) into a universal language of this age for the spiritual upliftment of the modern man. *"So far eight volumes . . ." this should be "eighteen volumes," I think, "eighteen volumes of this most beautiful literature on God have been brought out by ISKCON, and the rest are under preparation. Needless to say that in keeping with the excellence of their other publications, the publishers have seen to it that the printing, get*-up and pictures in these volumes are also of the highest quality, as though to serve as an ornament to the divine contents of the books. This is a rare opportunity to people and leaders of every country, race and community in the world to know and understand the glorious science of God and work for their perfection. I would say that this encyclopedia of spiritual knowledge is more important and fundamental than the encyclopedia of any other branch of knowledge and should, therefore, find a rightful place not only in the public and private libraries, big and small, of educational and other institutions, as also of every household, but above all in the hearts and minds of every man and woman." That seems to be it. Now read. First Canto, Chapter Five. You can keep it here. Synonyms also? Read synonyms also? No, just text. "Sūta Gosvāmī said: Thus the sage among the gods, Nārada . . ." Where is your son? He is at Pennsylvania, the gurukula , for now. Your wife? She is here. She wanted to see you. Yes? She can come in? She can come in for a minute; she has the baby with her. All right, let her in. This is made with wheat from the farm. He's on the Pennsylvania farm, with Paramānanda. Paramānanda is there? Yes. They are doing well? Oh, yes. That's all right. Hear, now. "Thus the sage among the gods, Nārada, comfortably seated and apparently smiling, addressed the ṛṣi amongst the brāhmaṇas , Vedavyāsa." Purport: "Nārada was smiling because he well knew the great sage Vedavyāsa and the cause of his disappointment. As he will explain gradually, Vyāsadeva's disappointment was due to insufficiency in presenting the science of devotional service. Nārada knew the defect, and it was confirmed by the position of Vyāsa." Text number two. *Translation. "Addressing Vyāsadeva, the son of Parāśara , Nārada inquired: Are you satisfied by identifying with the body or the mind as the objects of self*-realization?" *Purport: "This was a hint by Nārada to Vyāsadeva regarding the cause of his despondency. Vyāsadeva, as the descendant of Parāśara, a greatly powerful sage, had the privilege of having a great parentage, which should not have given Vyāsadeva cause for despondency. Being a great son of a great father, he should not have identified the self with the body or the mind. Ordinary men with a poor fund of knowledge can identify the body as self or the mind as self, but Vyāsadeva should not have done so. One cannot be cheerful by nature unless one is factually seated in self*-realization, which is transcendental to the material body and mind." "Your inquiries were full and your studies were also well fulfilled, and there is no doubt that you have prepared a great and wonderful work, the *Mahābhārata* , which is full of all kinds of Vedic sequences elaborately explained." Purport: "The despondency of Vyāsadeva was certainly not due to his lack of sufficient knowledge, because as a student he had fully inquired about the Vedic literatures, as a result of which the *Mahābhārata* is compiled with full explanation of the *Vedas* ." "You have fully delineated the subject of impersonal Brahman, as well as the knowledge derived therefrom. In spite of all this, why should you be despondent, thinking that you are undone, my dear prabhu ?" *Purport: "The Vedānta*-sūtra or Brahma-sūtra compiled by Śrī Vyāsadeva is the full deliberation of the impersonal absolute feature, and it is accepted as the most exalted philosophical exposition in the world. It covers the subject of eternity, and the methods are scholarly. So there cannot be any doubt about the transcendental scholarship of Vyāsadeva. So why should he lament?" *"Śrī Vyāsadeva said: All you have said about me is perfectly correct. Despite all this, I am not pacified. I therefore question you about the root cause of my dissatisfaction, for you are a man of unlimited knowledge due to your being the offspring of one, Brahmā, who is self*-born, without mundane mother and father." Purport. "In the material world everyone is engrossed with the idea of identifying the body or mind with the self. As such, all knowledge disseminated in the material world is related either with the body or with the mind, and that is the root cause of all despondencies. This is not always detected, even though one may be the greatest erudite scholar in materialistic knowledge. It is good, therefore, to approach a personality like Nārada to solve the root cause of all despondencies. Why Nārada should be approached is explained below." "My lord! Everything that is mysterious is known to you because you worship the creator and destroyer of the material world and the maintainer of the spiritual world, the original Personality of Godhead, who is transcendental to the three modes of material nature." *Purport: "A person who is cent percent engaged in the service of the Lord is the emblem of all knowledge. Such a devotee of the Lord in full perfection of devotional service is also perfect by the qualification of the Personality of Godhead. As such, the eightfold perfections of mystic power, aṣṭa*-siddhi , constitute very little of his godly opulence. A devotee like Nārada can act wonderfully by his spiritual perfection, which every individual is trying to attain. Śrīla Nārada is a cent percent perfect living being, although not equal to the Personality of Godhead." *"Like the sun, Your Goodness can travel everywhere in the three worlds, and like the air you can penetrate the internal region of everyone. As such, you are as good as the all*-pervasive Supersoul. Please, therefore, find out the deficiency in me, despite my being absorbed in transcendence under disciplinary regulations and vows." Purport: "Transcendental realization, pious activities, worshiping the Deities, charity, mercifulness, nonviolence and studying the scriptures under strict disciplinary regulations are always helpful." Text 8. "Śrī Nārada said: You have not actually broadcast the sublime and spotless glories of the Personality of Godhead. That philosophy which does not satisfy the transcendental senses of the Lord is considered worthless." *Purport: "The eternal relation of an individual soul with the Supreme Soul Personality of Godhead is constitutionally one of being the eternal servitor of the eternal master. The Lord has expanded Himself as living beings in order to accept loving service from them, and this alone can satisfy both the Lord and the living beings. A scholar like Vyāsadeva has completed many expansions of the Vedic literatures, ending with the Vedānta philosophy, but none of them have been written directly glorifying the Personality of Godhead. Dry philosophical speculations even on the transcendental subject of the Absolute have very little attraction without directly dealing with the glorification of the Lord. The Personality of Godhead is the last word in transcendental realization. The Absolute realized as impersonal Brahman or localized Supersoul, Paramātmā, is less productive of transcendental bliss than the supreme personal realization of His glories. The compiler of the Vedānta*-darśana is Vyāsadeva himself. Yet he is troubled, although he is the author. So what sort of transcendental bliss can be derived by the readers and listeners of Vedānta , which is not explained directly by Vyāsadeva the author? Herein arises the necessity of explaining Vedānta-sūtra in the form of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by the self-same author." If it hasn't been ex . . . if he has not said it, so how can they know it from Vedānta-sūtra? Hmm? If he has not said it, so how can they know it? "Although, great sage, you have very broadly described the four principles, beginning with religious performances, you have not described the glories of the Supreme Personality, Vāsudeva." Purport: "The prompt diagnosis of Śrī Nārada is at once declared. The root cause of the despondency of Vyāsadeva was his deliberate avoidance of glorifying the Lord in his various editions of the *Purāṇas* . He has certainly, as a matter of course, given descriptions of the glories of the Lord (Śrī Kṛṣṇa), but not as many as given to religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and salvation. These four items are by far inferior to engagement in the devotional service of the Lord. Śrī Vyāsadeva, as the authorized scholar, knew very well this difference. And still, instead of giving more importance to the better type of engagement, namely . . ." Why not go there? You can go there. In the big room? Yes. It's better. It's too crowded here. Let us go there. (break) . . . trying to retire here in one year when he's through with his duties as a director of a mental hospital. Which community? He plans to come here to retire in one year. Oh. Yes, everyone should retire and join us. Jaya . At least those who are above fifty years old. That is Vedic civilization. Pañcasordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet . One who is over fifty years of age, vanaṁ vrajet . So vanaṁ vrajet means completely retired from family responsibilities and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is compulsory according to Vedic civilization. Hmm. *"These four items are by far inferior to engagement in the devotional service of the Lord. Śrī Vyāsadeva, as the authorized scholar, knew very well this difference, and still, instead of giving more importance to the better type of engagement, namely the devotional service of the Lord, he had more or less improperly used his valuable time, and thus he was despondent. From this it is clearly indicated that no one can be pleased substantially without being engaged in the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad*-gītā this fact is clearly mentioned. After liberation, which is the last item in the line of performing religiosity, etcetera, one is engaged in pure devotional service. This is called the stage of self-realization, or brahma-bhūta stage. After attainment of this brahma-bhūta stage one is satisfied, but satisfaction is the beginning of transcendental bliss. One should progress by attaining neutrality and equality in the relative world. In passing this stage of equanimity, one is fixed up in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. This is the instruction of the Personality of Godhead in the Bhagavad-gītā . The conclusion is that in order to maintain the status quo of the brahma-bhūta stage, as also to increase the degree of transcendental realization, it is recommended by Nārada to Vyāsadeva that he, Vyāsadeva, should now eagerly and repeatedly describe the path of devotional service. This would cure him from gross despondency." "Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows." Just like the modern newspaper. Huge bundle of newspaper every morning, huh? So it is, as it is said here, the place of enjoyment for the crows. Hmm? What is that? Vāyasaṁ tīrtham . *Vāyasaṁ . Vāyasaṁ means crows. The crows, they take pleasure in a place where all rubbish and refuses are thrown. They take pleasure. So what is this newspaper? All rubbish things, they are collected together. Nobody likes it to read. They just glance over for a few minutes, and then it is thrown away, rubbish. And even it is thrown there, nobody touches it. So they are spending huge, so many newspapers. Each newspaper several editions in a day, huge establishment, but there is no substance of life. That is being described. Na yad vacaś citra*-padaṁ harer yaśo . Read it. *"Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows. Since the all*-perfect persons are inhabitants of the transcendental abode, they do not derive any pleasure there." Purport. *"Crows and swans are not birds of the same feather because of their different mental attitudes. The fruitive workers or passionate men are compared to the crows, whereas the all*-perfect saintly persons are compared to the swans. Crows take pleasure in a place where garbage is thrown out, just as the passionate fruitive workers take pleasure in wine and women and places for gross sense pleasure. The swans do not take pleasure in the places where crows are assembled for conferences and meetings. They are instead seen in the atmosphere of natural scenic beauty, where there are transparent reservoirs of water nicely decorated with stems of lotus flowers in variegated colors of natural beauty. That is the difference between the two classes of birds. "Nature has influenced different species of life with different mentalities, and it is not possible to bring them up into the same rank and file. Similarly, there are different kinds of literature for different types of men of different mentality. Mostly the market literatures which attract men of the crow's categories are literatures containing refuse remnants of sensuous topics. They are generally known as mundane talks in relation with the gross body and subtle mind. They are full of subject matter described in decorative language full of mundane similies and metaphorical arrangements. Yet with all that, they do not glorify the Lord. Such poetry and prose on any subject matter is considered decoration of a dead body. Spiritually advanced men, who are compared with the swans, do not take pleasure in such dead literatures, which are sources of pleasure for men who are spiritually dead. These literatures in the modes of passion and ignorance are distributed under different labels, but they can hardly help the spiritual urge of the human being, and thus the swanlike spiritually advanced men have nothing to do with them. "Such spiritually advanced men are called also mānasa , because they always keep up the standard of transcendental voluntary service to the Lord on the spiritual plane. This completely forbids fruitive activities for gross bodily sense satisfaction or subtle speculation of the material egoistic mind. Social literary men, scientists, mundane poets, theoretical philosophers and politicians who are completely absorbed in the material advancement of sense pleasure are all dolls of the material energy. They take pleasure in a place where rejected subject matters are thrown. According to Śrīdhara Swami, this is the pleasure of the prostitute hunters. But literatures which describe the glories of the Lord are enjoyed by the paramahaṁsas who have grasped the essence of human activities." When you said that transcendentally spiritually advanced men are called mānasa , that means "with the mind," because they are always thinking of? Yes, always. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa padāravindayoḥ (SB 9.4.18). They are thinking of Kṛṣṇa. "On the other hand, that literature which is full of pastimes of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etcetera, of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest." *Purport: "It is a qualification of the great thinkers to pick up the best even from the worst. It is said that the intelligent man should pick up nectar from a stock of poison, should accept gold even from a filthy place, should accept a good and qualified wife even from an obscure family, and should accept a good lesson even from a man or from a teacher who comes from the untouchables. These are some of the ethical instructions for everyone in every place without exception. But a saint is far above the level of an ordinary man, and he is always absorbed in glorifying the Supreme Lord, because by broadcasting the holy name and fame of the Supreme Lord the polluted atmosphere of the world will change, and as a result of propagating the transcendental literatures like Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , people will become sane in their transactions. *"While preparing this commentation on this particular stanza of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam we have a crisis before us. Our neighboring friend China has attacked the border of India with a militaristic spirit. We have practically no business in the political field, yet we see that previously there were both China and India, and they both lived peacefully for centuries without ill feeling. The reason is that they lived those days in an atmosphere of God consciousness, and every country over the surface of the world was God-fearing, pure-hearted and simple, and there was no question of political diplomacy. There was no cause of quarrel between the two countries of China and India over land which is not very suitable for habitation, and certainly there was no cause for fighting on this issue. But due to the age of quarrel, Kali, which we have discussed, there is always a chance of quarrel on slight provocation. This is due not to the issue in question but to the polluted atmosphere of this age. Systematically there is propaganda by a section of people to stop glorification of the name and fame of the Supreme Lord. Therefore there is great need for disseminating the message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam all over the world. It is the duty of every responsible Indian to broadcast the transcendental message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam throughout the world to do all the supermost good, as well as to bring about the desired peace in the world. Because India has failed in her duty by neglecting this responsible work, there is so much quarrel and trouble all over the world. We are confident that if the transcendental message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is received only by the leading men of the world, certainly there will be a change of heart, and naturally the people in general will follow them. The mass of people in general are tools in the hands of modern politicians and leaders of the people. If there is a change of heart of the leaders only, certainly there will be a radical change in the atmosphere of the world. We know that our honest attempt to present this great literature conveying transcendental messages for reviving the God consciousness of the people in general and respiritualizing the world atmosphere is fraught with many difficulties. Our presenting this matter in adequate language, especially a foreign language, will certainly fail, and there will be so many literary discrepancies despite our honest attempt to present it in the proper way. But we are sure that with all our faults in this connection, the seriousness of the subject matter will be taken into consideration, and the leaders of society will still accept this, due to its being an honest attempt to glorify the almighty God. When there is fire in a house, the inmates of the house go out to get help from the neighbors, who may be foreigners, and yet without knowing the language, the victims of the fire express themselves and the neighbors understand the need, even though not expressed in the same language. The same spirit of cooperation is needed to broadcast this transcendental message of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam throughout the polluted atmosphere of the world. After all, it is a technical science of spiritual values, and thus we are concerned with the techniques and not with the language. If the techniques of this great literature are understood by the people of the world, there will be success. *"When there are too many materialistic activities by the people in general all over the world, there is no wonder that a person or nation attacks another person or nation on slight provocation. That is the rule of this age of Kali, or quarrel. The atmosphere is already polluted with corruption of all description, and everyone knows it well. There are so many unwanted literatures full of materialistic ideas of sense gratification. The people in general want to read. That is a natural instinct. But because their minds are polluted, they want such literatures. Under the circumstances, transcendental literature like Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam will not only diminish the activities of the corrupt minds of the people in general, but also it will supply food for their hankering after reading some interesting literature. In the beginning they may not like it, because one suffering from jaundice is reluctant to take sugar candy, but we should know that sugar candy is the only remedy for the jaundice. Similarly, let there be systematic propaganda for popularizing reading of the Bhagavad-gītā and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which will act like sugar candy for the jaundicelike condition of sense gratification. When men have a taste for this literature, the other literatures, which are catering poison to society, will then automatically cease. We are sure therefore that everyone in the human society will welcome Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , even though it is now presented with so many faults, for it is recommended by Śrī Nārada, who has very kindly appeared in this chapter." So what other literatures say? There is not one. In our Society we do not read even newspaper, is it not? Do we? Huh? Only in context to our preaching work. That is another thing. But generally . . . we do not derive any benefit from those. People read it, especially in the Western county. If there is no newspaper it is hell. I told you this story? Yes. You can repeat that. The preacher was preaching to the coal miners that if they were not good, they would go to hell, and in hell it was very cold. So they were thinking, "So it is very cold in the mine." Then he was saying that it is very dark in hell. "But it is very dark in the mine." Then he said, "And there are no newspapers." "Oh, how horrible! What a horrible place that must be." When they heard in the hell there is no newspaper, then came to the idea, "Oh, it is horrible." Otherwise, cold, dark, "Oh, this is our custom. We are already accustomed to these habits, we are working in the mine. So don't make any distinction between hell and our present residential quarters. But if there is no newspaper, certainly that is hell." *"Knowledge of self*-realization, even though freed from all material affinity, does not look well if devoid of a conception of the infallible God. What then is the use of fruitive activities, which are naturally painful from the very beginning and transient by nature, if they are not utilized for the devotional service of the Lord?" *Purport: "As referred to above, not only ordinary literatures devoid of the transcendental glorification of the Lord are condemned, but also Vedic literatures and speculation on the subject of impersonal Brahman when they are devoid of devotional service. When speculation on the impersonal Brahman is condemned on the above ground, then what to speak of ordinary fruitive work, which is not meant to fulfill the aim of devotional service. Such speculative knowledge and fruitive work cannot lead one to the goal of perfection. Fruitive work, in which almost all people in general are engaged, is always painful, either in the beginning or at the end. It can only be fruitful when made subservient to the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad*-gītā also it is confirmed that the result of such fruitive work may be offered for the service of the Lord, otherwise it leads to material bondage. The bona fide enjoyer of the fruitive work is the Personality of Godhead. And thus when it is engaged for the sense gratification of the living entities, it becomes an acute source of trouble." "O Vyāsadeva, your vision is completely perfect. Your good fame is spotless, you are firm in vow and situated in truthfulness, and thus you can think of the pastimes of the Lord in trance for the liberation of the people in general from all material bondage." Purport: "People in general have a taste for literature by instinct. They want to hear and read from the authorities something about the unknown, but their taste is exploited by unfortunate literatures, which are full of subject matter for satisfaction of the material senses. Such literatures contain different kinds of mundane poems and philosophical speculations more or less under the influence of māyā , ending in sense gratification. These literatures, although worthless in the true sense of the term, are variously decorated to attract the attention of the less intelligent men. Thus the attracted living entities are more and more entangled in material bondage without hope of liberation for thousands and thousands of generations. "Śrī Nārada Ṛṣi, being the best among the Vaiṣṇavas, is compassionate on such unfortunate victims of worthless literatures, and thus he advises Śrī Vyāsadeva to compose transcendental literature which is not only attractive but can also actually bring liberation from all kinds of bondage. Śrīla Vyāsadeva or his representatives are qualified because they are rightly trained to see things in true perspective. Śrīla Vyāsadeva and his representatives are pure in thought due to their spiritual enlightenment; fixed in their vows, due to their devotional service; *and determined to deliver the fallen souls rotting in material activities. The fallen souls are very eager to receive novel informations every day, and the transcendentalists like Vyāsadeva or Nārada can supply such eager people in general with unlimited news from the spiritual world. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that the material world is only a part of the whole creation, and that this earth is only a fragment of the whole material world. *"There are thousands and thousands of literary men all over the world, and they have created many, many thousands of literary works for the information of the people in general for thousands and thousands of years. Unfortunately . . . (break) . . . effect of liberation from the pangs of material civilization, which is eating the vital parts of the human energy. The Bhagavad*-gītā , which is the spoken message of the Lord Himself recorded by Vyāsadeva, and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which is the transcendental narration of the activities of the same Lord Kṛṣṇa, which alone can satisfy the hankering desires of the living being for eternal peace and liberation from miseries. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is, therefore, meant for all the living beings all over the universe for total liberation from all kinds of material bondage. Such transcendental narrations of the pastimes of the Lord can only be described by liberated souls like Vyāsadeva and his bona fide representatives, who are completely merged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. Only to such devotees do the pastimes of the Lord and their transcendental nature become automatically manifest by dint of devotional service. No one else can either know or describe the acts of the Lord, even if they speculate on the subject for many, many years. The descriptions of the Bhāgavatam are so precise and accurate that whatever has been predicted in this great literature about five thousand years before is now exactly happening. Therefore the vision of the author comprehends past, present and future. Such liberated persons like Vyāsadeva are not only perfect by the power of vision and wisdom but also in aural reception, in thinking, feeling and all other sense activities. A liberated person possesses perfect senses, and with perfect senses only can one serve the sense proprietor, Hṛṣīkeśa, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is therefore the perfect description of the all-perfect Personality of Godhead by the all-perfect personality, Śrī Vyāsadeva, the compiler of the Vedas ." Bring that chair forward. No, that's . . . (indistinct) "Whatever you desire to describe which is separate in vision from the Lord simply reacts with different forms, names and results to agitate the mind, as the wind agitates a boat which has no resting place." *Purport: "Śrī Vyāsadeva is the editor of all descriptions of the Vedic literatures, and thus he has described transcendental realization in different ways, namely by fruitive activities, speculative knowledge, mystic power and devotional service. Besides that, in his various Purāṇas he has recommended the worship of so many demigods in different forms and names. The result is that people in general are puzzled how to fix up their minds in the service of the Lord. They are always disturbed to find out the real path of self*-realization. Śrīla Nāradadeva is stressing this particular defect in the Vedic literatures compiled by Vyāsadeva, and thus he is trying to emphasize describing everything in relation with the Supreme Lord and no one else. In fact there is nothing existent except the Lord. The Lord is manifested in different expansions. He is the root of the complete tree. He is the stomach of the complete body. As such, pouring water on the root is the right process to water the tree, as much as feeding the stomach supplies energy to all parts of the body. *"Śrīla Vyāsadeva should not have compiled any Purāṇas other than the Bhāgavata Purāṇa , because a slight deviation from that may create havoc for self*-realization. If a slight deviation can create such havoc, then what to speak of deliberate expansion of the separatist idea from the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead? The most defective part of worshiping demigods is that it creates a definite conception of pantheism, ending disastrously in many religious sects detrimental to the progress of the principles of the Bhāgavatam , which alone can give the accurate direction for self-realization in eternal relation with the Personality of Godhead by devotional service in transcendental love. The example of the boat disturbed by whirling wind is suitable in this respect. The diverted mind of the pantheist can never reach to the perfection of self-realization, due to the disturbed condition of the selections of object." "The people in general are naturally inclined to enjoy, and you have encouraged them in that way in the name of religion. This is verily condemned and is quite unreasonable. Because they are guided under your instructions, they will accept such activities in the name of religion and will hardly care for prohibitions." *Purport: "Śrīla Vyāsadeva's compilation of various Vedic literatures on the basis of regulated performances of fruitive activities as depicted in the Mahābhārata and other literature is condemned herewith by Śrīla Nārada. The human beings, by long material association life after life, have a natural inclination by practice to endeavor to lord it over material energy. They have no sense of the responsibility of human life. This human form of life is a chance to get out of the clutches of illusory matter. The Vedas are meant for going back to Godhead, going back home. To revolve in the cycle of transmigration in a series of lives numbering 8,400,000 is an imprisoned life for the condemned conditioned souls. The human form of life is a chance to get out of this imprisoned life, and as such the only occupation of the human being is to reestablish his lost relationship with God. Under the circumstances, one should never be encouraged in making a plan for sense enjoyment in the name of religious functions. Such diversion of the human energy results in a misguided civilization. Śrīla Vyāsadeva is the authority in Vedic explanations and the Mahābhārata , etcetera, and his encouragement in sense enjoyment in some form or other is a great barrier for spiritual advancement, because the people in general will not agree to renounce material activities, which hold them in material bondage. At a certain stage of human civilization such material activities in the name of religion, as sacrificing animals in the name of yajña , were too much rampant. The Lord incarnated Himself as Buddha and decried the authority of the Vedas to stop animal sacrifice in the name of religion. This was foreseen by Nārada, and therefore he condemned such literatures. The flesh*-eaters still continue to perform animal sacrifice before some demigod or goddess in the name of religion, because in some of the Vedic literatures such regulated sacrifice is recommended. They are so recommended to discourage flesh eating, but gradually the purpose of such religious activities is forgotten and the slaughterhouse becomes prominent. This is because foolish materialistic men do not care to listen to others who are actually in a position to explain the Vedic rites. *"In the Vedas it is distinctly said that the perfection of life is never to be attained either by voluminous work or by accumulation of wealth or even by increasing the number of population, but it is so attained only by renunciation. The materialistic men do not care to listen to such injunctions. According to them, the so*-called renounced order of life is meant for those who are unable to earn their livelihood because of some corporeal defects or for persons who have failed to achieve prosperity in family life. In histories like the Mahābhārata , of course, there are topics on transcendental subjects along with material topics. The Bhagavad-gītā is there in the Mahābhārata . The whole idea of the Mahābhārata is culminated in the ultimate instructions of the Bhagavad-gītā , that one should relinquish all other engagements and should engage oneself solely and fully in surrendering unto the lotus feet of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. But men with materialistic tendencies are more attracted to politics, economics and philanthropic activities mentioned in the Mahābhārata than to the principal topic, namely the Bhagavad-gītā . This compromising spirit of Vyāsadeva is directly condemned by Nārada, who advises him to directly proclaim that the prime necessity of human life is to realize one's eternal relation with the Lord and thus surrender unto Him without delay. A patient suffering from a particular type of malady is almost always inclined to accept eatables which are forbidden for him. The expert physician does not make any compromise with the patient by allowing him to take partially what he should not take at all. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said that a man attached to fruitive work should not be discouraged from his occupation, for gradually he may be elevated to the position of self-realization. This is sometimes applicable for those who are only dry empiric philosophers without spiritual realization, but those who are in the devotional line need not be always so advised." "The Supreme Lord is unlimited. Only a very expert personality retired from the activities of material happiness deserves to understand this knowledge of spiritual values. Therefore those who are not so well situated due to material attachment should be shown the ways of transcendental realization by Your Goodness through descriptions of the transcendental activities of the Supreme Lord." *Purport: "Theological science is a difficult subject, especially when it deals with the transcendental nature of God. It is not a subject matter to be understood by persons who are too much attached to material activities. Only the very expert, who have almost retired from materialistic activities, by culture of spiritual knowledge can be admitted to the study of this great science. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is clearly stated that out of many hundreds and thousands of men, only one person deserves to enter into transcendental realization, and out of many thousands of such transcendentally realized persons, only a few can understand the theological science specifically dealing with God as a person. Śrī Vyāsadeva is therefore advised by Nārada to describe the science of God directly by relating His transcendental activities. Vyāsadeva is himself a personality expert in this science, and he is unattached to material enjoyment; therefore he is the right person to describe it. And Sukadeva Gosvāmī, the son of Vyāsadeva, is the right person to receive it. *" Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, and therefore it can react on the layman as medicinal doses. Because it contains the transcendental activities of the Lord, there is no difference between the Lord and the literature. The literature is the factual literary incarnation of the Lord so the laymen can hear the narration of the activities of the Lord. Thereby they are able to associate with the Lord and thus gradually become purified from material diseases. The expert devotees also can discover novel ways and means to convert the nondevotee in terms of particular time and circumstance. Devotional service is dynamic activities, and the expert devotees can find out competent means to inject it into the dull brains of the materialistic population. Such transcendental activities of the devotees for the service of the Lord can bring a new order of life to the foolish society of materialistic men. Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His subsequent followers exhibited expert dexterity in this connection. By following the same method one can bring the materialistic men of this age of quarrel into order for peaceful life and transcendental realization." What is the time now? About 7:20, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Should we take your leave? Any question regarding this? *Says " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, therefore it can react on the layman as medicinal doses"? If they simply hear, it will act as medicine. *Vyāsadeva is called tri*-kala-jñā —he sees past, present and future. How is it that he sees the future, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (indistinct—microphone rattling) Just like common business. Bring that black Bhāgavata . Five thousand years before *Bhāgavatam* was written, and so many foretelling are there, and they are arguing (microphone rattling—indistinct). If you like, you can keep it open. (referring to door) I was looking just now to see if my wife had . . . (indistinct) . . . can come in . . . (indistinct) . . . thought to open the door. Twelfth Canto, Third Chapter. *Tataś cānu*-dinaṁ dharmaḥ ? Hmm, before that. That is first chapter. *Read it, tataś cānu*-dinam , it is third chapter. This is second. First chapter, by the end, what it is written? (microphone rattling—indistinct) What is the last verse you read? Yes, this is the last verse. It says everyone is rājabhiś ca kṣayaṁ yāsyanti pīḍitāḥ . What is the note? *(Śrīdhara Svāmī's commentary) kiṁ ca , tan nāthas te nātha yeṣaṁ te jana*-pada deśa-vartino manuṣyas tac-chīlācārādinas teṣam iva śrīlamācāro . . . *The purport is that in the Kali*-yuga, the government men, they will be all rogues and thieves. So the citizens also follow them. Tan-natha , śīlācārya . Śīlācārya is their behavior. If the politicians, secretaries and big, big officers going to the brothels and drinking wine and enjoying, then what others will not? They will . . . (indistinct) . . . that's all. Go on, second chapter. Note? *Says that, er, kali*-dharmān prapañcayati-tataś cetyādinā . That's all? Yes. He doesn't say. *How things will deteriorate, that is explained here. Tataś cānu*-dinam ? Dharmaḥ satyaṁ śaucam . . . *With the progress of the Kali*-yuga . . . the Kali-yuga has begun from the . . . after the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra. So five thousand years ago. The whole duration of life of Kali-yuga is thirty-two hundred thousands of years. Thirty-two hundred thousands of years, out of which we have passed only five thousand years. Still, the balance is twenty-seven hundred thousands of years. So with the progress of this age, these things will happen. What is that? Tataś cānu-dinam ? Dharmaḥ satyam . Dharmaḥ . People will gradually decrease in their sense of religiosity, dharmaḥ . Then? Satyam . *They will be untruthful, hardly, because there is no training of brahminical culture how to become truthful. People think that "What is the wrong there, I shall speak something untruth?" So that means the value of truthfulness will decrease. And the importance of religion will decrease. This is the symptoms of Kali*-yuga. Then? Śaucam . Śaucam , cleanliness. People will become unclean more and more. Then? Kṣamā . Kṣamā . Formerly saintly persons and leaders, they used to excuse. Now that, the sense of excusing, "All right, this man has done something, excuse him," that will decrease. The sense of religiosity, truthfulness, and . . .? Truthfulness, cleanliness, śaucam . Cleanliness. Kṣamā . And kṣamā , kṣamā means pardon. Then? Dayā . Dayā , mercifulness. People will have no mercy. It has already begun. If somebody is attacked, being killed, nobody takes care; he goes in his own way. There is no mercy. There is no mercy to the animals. Now there is no mercy even to one's child; *one's own child, they are killing. Just see how degraded, dayā . What to speak of no dayā , no mercy for the animals—all right, you are not so advanced—but the mother's mercy to the child will be diminished. This is foretelling. This is called tri*-kala-jñā . Who expected that mother will kill the child? But Vyāsadeva, five thousand years ago, said, "Yes, mercy will be reduced." Then? Āyur . *Āyur , duration of life. The maximum duration of life in Kali*-yuga is hundred years, but who is living hundred years? It is being reduced, and it will be so reduced that if a man would live twenty years, he is an old man. It will come to that stage. Now it is reducing, from hundred years to ninety years to eighty years. *The average is seventy*-three years now. Seventy, then sixty then fifty. In this way, if a man lives from twenty to thirty years he will be considered grand old man. (laughter) These are the symptoms, āyur . Then? Balam . And bodily strength. Bodily strength . . . in India we, in our childhood, I have seen when British rule was there, all the Europeans were coming, very strong and stout and strong. Now such Europeans are not coming. Even bodily strength reduced. Then? Smṛtiḥ . *And memory. It will reduce. Just see, compare everything—religiosity and the power of mercifulness, pardoning, truthfulness, cleanliness, bodily strength, duration of life—they're all reduced. Now who can say it is not reduced? Can you say? This is called tri*-kala-jñā . Tatas , what is that? Cānu-dinaṁ rājan ? Kālena , in due course of time, all these items—there are eight items—it will be reducing, reducing, reducing. Reducing, reducing so much. So what is that? They say that men are living longer now compared to five hundred or six hundred years ago. Huh? They say that men are living longer now. The scientists, they say that there's less disease. They say that a hundred years ago people had more disease than . . . now they live longer. *That these rascals say. We do not say. We have seen in our childhood that my grandmother, she died at the age of ninety*-six years. There was no disease. The scientists say that there was disease, now there is no disease? They say there is less disease now. They say that . . . Less disease—everyone suffering from cancer. They are building more hospitals. Yes. Not less. Just see. They're increasing number of hospitals, and there is no disease? They say that a child has more of a chance of living now than . . . "They say," but what is the practical? They say all, as I repeatedly, pagale ki na bole chakole ki na khaya . A madman, what does he not say, and a goat, what does he not eat? So they are all madmen. (laughter) They can say all everything. They are experimenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with genes now. Hmm? You say that we are losing the qualities of memory, strength, but they are experimenting where they can isolate genes of persons who have those qualities and then put on . . . But we have to see actually what is happening. They are also transplanting livers and hearts, increasing the duration of life. So whatever they may do, things will happen like this. This is a fact. Can they increase the duration of life? People, can they make any scientific discovery that no man will die less than hundred years? Is there any such discovery? The only discoveries they have made so far are how to kill people quicker. Yes. Is there any discovery that here is a pill, you go on taking it, you'll not die before hundred years? Is there any discovery? Then what is the use of talking nonsense? They are reducing their life, that's a fact. And so far as mercy is concerned, we see how much it is reduced. The mother is killing child. Where is mercy now? So they may say anything like madman, but we see practically what is happening. Then? *So vittam , money. Money is the criterion, not family. Formerly, there was family, respectable family, aristocratic family, brāhmaṇa family, kṣatriya family. All these things are gone now. If you accumulate some money some way or other, then you are respectable, never mind what you are. That is Kali*-yuga symptom: their position in society, if you want to be respectable man, you somehow or other gather money. Never mind how we have gathered, what is the method. It doesn't matter. Get some money and you become respectable. Vittam eva hi . *Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . Ah, janmācāra . First of all, janma , the family, heredity, was taken into consideration, but that is now forgotten. Get money. Just like in England that the British Empire policy was that you bring money from outside and deposit in the government treasury and you become lord. Is it not? Bring money, some way or other. So that was going on, exploiting. They used to go to the foreign countries and somehow or other accumulate money. Just like Lord Clive. He was a street boy, but he made some policy. In this way, diplomacy, he entered into Bengal and got some money, and Lord Clive, he became Lord Clive. So money is the criterion. Some way or other, bring money, that's all. That's a fact. These are the symptoms. Just try to understand. *Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . If you have money, then you are aristocratic; then whatever you do, it is all right. Janmācāra , then? Guṇa . Guṇa . You are most qualified man. You may be a drunkard, you may be a prostitute hunter, whatever you may be, but because you have money you are a qualified man. Then? *Janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . Go on. *Dharma*-nyāya-vyavasthāyāṁ kāraṇaṁ balam eva hi . *Dharma*-nyāya . Now, if you want justice, you can get it according to your desire, justice, if you have got money. That is going on, that if you bribe to the court's men and even to the judge or magistrate, you get justice accordingly. That is going on. Dharma ācāra . Then? Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur . Hmm? Dāmpatye ? Dāmpatye abhirucir , hetur . . . *Abhirucir , yes. Now formerly marriage was a religious ceremony. Marriage was, this boy and this girl should be married, it is a religious function where the father and mother will see their horoscope and see if they are compatible, they will agree, they will live peacefully. So many things are there. Still, in India such things are calculated by the parents of the boy and the girl. Now, in this Kali*-yuga, you see, dāmpatye abhirucir . Abhirucir means the boy and the girl, if he likes, if he says, that's all. No other calculation. And then, after three days after marriage, they will divorce. (laughter) Because abhirucir , abhirucir : "I like, I don't like," that's all. Now I like, and after three days don't like, finished, business. In Chicago I saw a newspaper. One girl, within three weeks she has divorced two husbands. (laughter) Yes, I saw it in the newspaper. So this . . . formerly the father, mother used to see that this boy and girl is going to be married. So by horoscope, by other circumstances, by family, cultural . . . (indistinct) . . . by education, so many things, whether they will live peacefully. That was the understanding. Husband-wife means, a man requires a woman, a woman requires a man. They should be combined in such a way that they can live peacefully. If there is no disturbance of the mind, then they can make further progress in spiritual life. Therefore marriage is also necessary, and that must be properly done. This was the . . . now there is no such consideration. The boys and girls are free, and if one likes the other . . . dāmpatye . . . what is that? Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur . Hmm. Ruci . Ruci means liking. Then? I think it is māyaiva vyāvahārike . *Ah, māyaiva vyāvahārike . In ordinary dealings there is cheating. This is Kali*-yuga. Ordinarily, even when gentleman-gentleman, so-called gentlemen talking, he's trying to cheat him, he's trying to cheat him. By talking. And ordinarily. Māyaiva vyāvahārike . To talk with gentleman-gentleman, it is ordinary thing, but still there will be so many untruthfulness. Māyaiva vyāvahārike . Then? Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir vipratve sūtram eva hi . Hmm. And woman is nice, man is nice, this should be considered by sex power. Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir . Then? Vipratve sūtram eva hi . Vipratve sūtram eva hi . And there is a brāhmaṇa —what is the proof that he is a brāhmaṇa ? He has got a sacred thread, that's all. Or thread. It may not be sacred; *purchased from the market. So at least we try to give a sacred thread by ceremony. But anyone can purchase a thread from the market, two*-paisa worth or one-cent worth, and become a brāhmaṇa . "You are a brāhmaṇa ?" "Yes, you see my sacred thread?" (laughter) Finished. "What you are doing?" "Never mind." Don't be such brāhmaṇas , at least in our camp. You must follow the rules and regulations. Don't show that "I am now doubly initiated, sacred thread." Don't cheat in that way. Vipratve sūtram eva hi . Then? *Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv . *Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv . There are āśramas—brahmacārī , sannyāsī , gṛhastha . So they have got different dresses. So Kali-yuga, simply by dress he becomes a brahmacārī , he become a gṛhastha , he becomes a sannyāsī . Simply by dress. What he is acting, nobody cares, that's all. Then? Liṅgam , eva . Liṅgam means the external feature. This is the dress of a sannyāsī , this is the dress of a gṛhastha . Just like daṇḍa . Daṇḍa is the symptom that he is a sannyāsī . Then? *Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv anyonyāpatti-kāraṇam . Hmm. Then? *Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . *Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . If you have no money, then you cannot get justice. Cannot get . . .? *Justice. First of all you have to pay government so many percentage of money. Suppose somebody owes to you some money and he's not giving you. So if you want to go to the court, first of all you have to spend so much money. And if you have no money, then you cannot get your justice, money back. You have to pay this lawyer's fee, the stand duty, and so on, so on. But if you say, "I have no money," then forget justice. That's all. Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . Pāṇḍitye cāpalaṁ vacaḥ . Paṇḍita: if you can speak very vehemently any subject matter, people may or may not understand, and they will certify you, "Oh, this man is very learned." "What you have learned from him?" "Oh, I could not understand, but he spoke very nicely. He spoke very nicely." What is that nicely? That cāpala . (Prabhupāda speaks some gibberish) You go on speaking like that, (devotees laugh) and people will appreciate, "Oh, he's a big speaker!" What have you learned from him? Then? Then anadhyataivasādhutve sādhutve dambha eva tu . And if you are poor man, then you are not honest. That is the criterion. "Oh, here is a . . ." When the poor man comes, you'll not give place at your place. If he wants to stay, you'll refuse: "No." Because he's poor, he's immediately accepted as dishonest. He may be honest or dishonest, but poverty is a sign for accepting a man as dishonest. Then? Hmm. Svīkāra eva codvāhe . Marriage will go on simply by agreement, not by qualification. Svīkāra eva codvāhe . Snānam eva prasādhanam . And if you take bath, then all bodily cleanliness is finished, that's all. Then? *Dūre vāry*-ay . . . *Vāry*-ayanam . Oh. Dūre . . . *Dūre vāry*-ayanaṁ tīrtham . Tīrtham . If you go . . . Just like there is Vṛndāvana and here is New Vrindavan. But if you spend ten thousand dollars and go to Vṛndāvana, then it is pilgrimage. And here is Vṛndāvana-candra—so that is not very important. Dūre vāry-ayanam . You have to go far, far away, (laughter) then it will be pilgrimage. In India, there is Ganges in Calcutta. But they go to Hardwar. Then it is pilgrimage. (laughter) The same Ganges, coming from Hardwar. Then? *Dūre vāry*-ayanaṁ tīrthaṁ lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam . *Hmm. Lāvaṇyam , now you know very well in the Western country. Beauty increases by having long hair. (laughter) I was just trying to recite this verse only, and now see how it is current. Who expected that this foretelling is there in the Bhāgavatam ? To increase beauty, have long hair. Is it not? Now just see. How five thousand years this thing was foretold? That is the proof. There was no hippie movement then. (laughs) But Vyāsadeva foretold that in the Kali*-yuga, if one keeps long hair he will think himself as very beautiful. There are so many things. *So ultimately, with the advancement of Kali*-yuga you'll have no food. Food means there will be no food grains, there will be no milk, there will be no sugar—like that. No fruits. If you get fruits, there will be no pulp; it is simply seeds. These things are there. You get a mango, but a mango means simply the big seed, that's all. So how can you check it? If nature's way things are going to happen like that, what the scientists will do? If there is no rice, no wheat, will the scientists . . .? They can say replace with a pill, but they cannot produce wheat or rice or ḍāl or milk, sugar. That is not possible. Śrīla Prabhupāda? They have fashioned a way for the spacemen that they can drink their own urine and eat their own stool. Yes, that is the most scientific improvement. (laughter) Yes. That they can do. (laughter) By scientific improvement, they can drink their own urine, very tasty. That is possible. With all these disqualifications, how can the general mass of people take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Yes. That is the only remedy. That is stated there. You'll find this verse, *It is, the Kali*-yuga, it is an ocean of faults. How . . .? Suppose all over your body there are boils. So where you will apply ointment? You just dip down. (laughter) (end) Conversation -- June 25, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA *(Conversation and Reading from Srimad*-Bhagavatam Canto 1 and 12) *These are publicity for the Ratha*-yātrā. This is the article about the building, how it's the most attractive real estate near Cleveland. It's in the paint and flowers and gardens. This year's? Yes. People would drive by the temple, Prabhupāda, and just look. They would drive by and look once, drive a little further and look twice and three times. But San Francisco we haven't got our temple. What's that? We haven't got any temple. No. We used the photograph. We made a publicity notice, a news release, and they printed it directly. It was easier for them. The picture is of San Francisco, but the festival was in Cleveland. There is no date? Hmm? Maybe not in that one article. Other articles, there are dates. Is this Cleveland? *Yes. There are many skyscrapers, tall buildings. There are many tall buildings, and people were looking out at the Ratha*-yātrā cart and at Lord Jagannātha. (looking through articles) Here, the date, time is. *We have found, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the buses are going to many of these cities, they have never seen our devotees, because when we go, we are dressed like they are, for distributing the books. So now the boys are going again in the streets with a kīrtana party once a week downtown, and they have all done front*-page newspaper articles, because although they have been reading the books, they have never seen the devotees in many years. I think festivals like this . . . Yes. . . . in all these cities would be very advantageous, and all the book distribution . . . *And therefore I said that introduce Ratha*-yātrā in every city. Every city. At least wherever we have got our centers. Bring Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. They have received some testimonial from Indian . . . Oh, yes. Indian reviews? You can open this fan. (fan turned on) I don't want, but . . . *Prabhupāda, how should we have these Ratha*-yātrā festivals? Should they be big? Should they be big festivals? Should I plan on having three carts next year, or just one, or a small cart? *As you can afford. Minimum one cart. Otherwise, three carts. In India the Ratha*-yātrā festival is going on, according to rough estimate, for the last two thousand years, and the crowd never diminishes. One secretary of Parliament or something like that . . . *Śrī R. Subramanian, M.A., Deputy Director Research, Lok Sabha Secretariat, National Parliament, New Delhi. Should I read it? "A strange feature of the modern world is that in spite of vast advances in science and technology and the establishment of a good number of institutions for human welfare, mankind has not found true peace and happiness. Knowledge of material sciences and arts has increased tremendously in recent times, and millions of volumes on each fill the libraries the world over. People and leaders in every country are generally well versed in these arts and sciences, but despite their efforts, human society everywhere continues to be in turmoil and distress. The reason is not far to see. It is that they have not learned the science of God, the most fundamental of every other art and science, and fail to apply it to the facts of life. The need of the hour is, therefore, to do it if mankind is not only to survive but flower into a glorious existence. To teach this science of God to people everywhere and to aid them in their progress and development towards the real goal of life, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the most eminently fitted. In fact, this great ancient work of Vyāsa will fill this need of the modern times, for it is a cultural presentation for the respiritualization of the entire human society. His Divine Grace Śrīla A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the founder-ācārya of the ISKCON movement, has taken it upon himself, in addition to his ceaseless travels and other multifarious activities in the service of the Lord, the stupendous task of translating this Sanskrit work into English in about sixty volumes for the welfare and happiness of mankind. It is really astonishing how he is able to do this single-handed, and when one comes to think of this, apart from his other great literary works, one is tempted to wonder if he is not the same Vyāsa Muni reborn today to adapt his own old work (devotees respond enthusiatically) into a universal language of this age for the spiritual upliftment of the modern man. *"So far eight volumes . . ." this should be "eighteen volumes," I think, "eighteen volumes of this most beautiful literature on God have been brought out by ISKCON, and the rest are under preparation. Needless to say that in keeping with the excellence of their other publications, the publishers have seen to it that the printing, get*-up and pictures in these volumes are also of the highest quality, as though to serve as an ornament to the divine contents of the books. This is a rare opportunity to people and leaders of every country, race and community in the world to know and understand the glorious science of God and work for their perfection. I would say that this encyclopedia of spiritual knowledge is more important and fundamental than the encyclopedia of any other branch of knowledge and should, therefore, find a rightful place not only in the public and private libraries, big and small, of educational and other institutions, as also of every household, but above all in the hearts and minds of every man and woman." That seems to be it. Now read. First Canto, Chapter Five. You can keep it here. Synonyms also? Read synonyms also? No, just text. "Sūta Gosvāmī said: Thus the sage among the gods, Nārada . . ." Where is your son? He is at Pennsylvania, the gurukula , for now. Your wife? She is here. She wanted to see you. Yes? She can come in? She can come in for a minute; she has the baby with her. All right, let her in. This is made with wheat from the farm. He's on the Pennsylvania farm, with Paramānanda. Paramānanda is there? Yes. They are doing well? Oh, yes. That's all right. Hear, now. "Thus the sage among the gods, Nārada, comfortably seated and apparently smiling, addressed the ṛṣi amongst the brāhmaṇas , Vedavyāsa." Purport: "Nārada was smiling because he well knew the great sage Vedavyāsa and the cause of his disappointment. As he will explain gradually, Vyāsadeva's disappointment was due to insufficiency in presenting the science of devotional service. Nārada knew the defect, and it was confirmed by the position of Vyāsa." Text number two. *Translation. "Addressing Vyāsadeva, the son of Parāśara , Nārada inquired: Are you satisfied by identifying with the body or the mind as the objects of self*-realization?" *Purport: "This was a hint by Nārada to Vyāsadeva regarding the cause of his despondency. Vyāsadeva, as the descendant of Parāśara, a greatly powerful sage, had the privilege of having a great parentage, which should not have given Vyāsadeva cause for despondency. Being a great son of a great father, he should not have identified the self with the body or the mind. Ordinary men with a poor fund of knowledge can identify the body as self or the mind as self, but Vyāsadeva should not have done so. One cannot be cheerful by nature unless one is factually seated in self*-realization, which is transcendental to the material body and mind." "Your inquiries were full and your studies were also well fulfilled, and there is no doubt that you have prepared a great and wonderful work, the *Mahābhārata* , which is full of all kinds of Vedic sequences elaborately explained." Purport: "The despondency of Vyāsadeva was certainly not due to his lack of sufficient knowledge, because as a student he had fully inquired about the Vedic literatures, as a result of which the *Mahābhārata* is compiled with full explanation of the *Vedas* ." "You have fully delineated the subject of impersonal Brahman, as well as the knowledge derived therefrom. In spite of all this, why should you be despondent, thinking that you are undone, my dear prabhu ?" *Purport: "The Vedānta*-sūtra or Brahma-sūtra compiled by Śrī Vyāsadeva is the full deliberation of the impersonal absolute feature, and it is accepted as the most exalted philosophical exposition in the world. It covers the subject of eternity, and the methods are scholarly. So there cannot be any doubt about the transcendental scholarship of Vyāsadeva. So why should he lament?" *"Śrī Vyāsadeva said: All you have said about me is perfectly correct. Despite all this, I am not pacified. I therefore question you about the root cause of my dissatisfaction, for you are a man of unlimited knowledge due to your being the offspring of one, Brahmā, who is self*-born, without mundane mother and father." Purport. "In the material world everyone is engrossed with the idea of identifying the body or mind with the self. As such, all knowledge disseminated in the material world is related either with the body or with the mind, and that is the root cause of all despondencies. This is not always detected, even though one may be the greatest erudite scholar in materialistic knowledge. It is good, therefore, to approach a personality like Nārada to solve the root cause of all despondencies. Why Nārada should be approached is explained below." "My lord! Everything that is mysterious is known to you because you worship the creator and destroyer of the material world and the maintainer of the spiritual world, the original Personality of Godhead, who is transcendental to the three modes of material nature." *Purport: "A person who is cent percent engaged in the service of the Lord is the emblem of all knowledge. Such a devotee of the Lord in full perfection of devotional service is also perfect by the qualification of the Personality of Godhead. As such, the eightfold perfections of mystic power, aṣṭa*-siddhi , constitute very little of his godly opulence. A devotee like Nārada can act wonderfully by his spiritual perfection, which every individual is trying to attain. Śrīla Nārada is a cent percent perfect living being, although not equal to the Personality of Godhead." *"Like the sun, Your Goodness can travel everywhere in the three worlds, and like the air you can penetrate the internal region of everyone. As such, you are as good as the all*-pervasive Supersoul. Please, therefore, find out the deficiency in me, despite my being absorbed in transcendence under disciplinary regulations and vows." Purport: "Transcendental realization, pious activities, worshiping the Deities, charity, mercifulness, nonviolence and studying the scriptures under strict disciplinary regulations are always helpful." Text 8. "Śrī Nārada said: You have not actually broadcast the sublime and spotless glories of the Personality of Godhead. That philosophy which does not satisfy the transcendental senses of the Lord is considered worthless." *Purport: "The eternal relation of an individual soul with the Supreme Soul Personality of Godhead is constitutionally one of being the eternal servitor of the eternal master. The Lord has expanded Himself as living beings in order to accept loving service from them, and this alone can satisfy both the Lord and the living beings. A scholar like Vyāsadeva has completed many expansions of the Vedic literatures, ending with the Vedānta philosophy, but none of them have been written directly glorifying the Personality of Godhead. Dry philosophical speculations even on the transcendental subject of the Absolute have very little attraction without directly dealing with the glorification of the Lord. The Personality of Godhead is the last word in transcendental realization. The Absolute realized as impersonal Brahman or localized Supersoul, Paramātmā, is less productive of transcendental bliss than the supreme personal realization of His glories. The compiler of the Vedānta*-darśana is Vyāsadeva himself. Yet he is troubled, although he is the author. So what sort of transcendental bliss can be derived by the readers and listeners of Vedānta , which is not explained directly by Vyāsadeva the author? Herein arises the necessity of explaining Vedānta-sūtra in the form of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by the self-same author." If it hasn't been ex . . . if he has not said it, so how can they know it from Vedānta-sūtra? Hmm? If he has not said it, so how can they know it? "Although, great sage, you have very broadly described the four principles, beginning with religious performances, you have not described the glories of the Supreme Personality, Vāsudeva." Purport: "The prompt diagnosis of Śrī Nārada is at once declared. The root cause of the despondency of Vyāsadeva was his deliberate avoidance of glorifying the Lord in his various editions of the *Purāṇas* . He has certainly, as a matter of course, given descriptions of the glories of the Lord (Śrī Kṛṣṇa), but not as many as given to religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and salvation. These four items are by far inferior to engagement in the devotional service of the Lord. Śrī Vyāsadeva, as the authorized scholar, knew very well this difference. And still, instead of giving more importance to the better type of engagement, namely . . ." Why not go there? You can go there. In the big room? Yes. It's better. It's too crowded here. Let us go there. (break) . . . trying to retire here in one year when he's through with his duties as a director of a mental hospital. Which community? He plans to come here to retire in one year. Oh. Yes, everyone should retire and join us. Jaya . At least those who are above fifty years old. That is Vedic civilization. Pañcasordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet . One who is over fifty years of age, vanaṁ vrajet . So vanaṁ vrajet means completely retired from family responsibilities and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is compulsory according to Vedic civilization. Hmm. *"These four items are by far inferior to engagement in the devotional service of the Lord. Śrī Vyāsadeva, as the authorized scholar, knew very well this difference, and still, instead of giving more importance to the better type of engagement, namely the devotional service of the Lord, he had more or less improperly used his valuable time, and thus he was despondent. From this it is clearly indicated that no one can be pleased substantially without being engaged in the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad*-gītā this fact is clearly mentioned. After liberation, which is the last item in the line of performing religiosity, etcetera, one is engaged in pure devotional service. This is called the stage of self-realization, or brahma-bhūta stage. After attainment of this brahma-bhūta stage one is satisfied, but satisfaction is the beginning of transcendental bliss. One should progress by attaining neutrality and equality in the relative world. In passing this stage of equanimity, one is fixed up in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. This is the instruction of the Personality of Godhead in the Bhagavad-gītā . The conclusion is that in order to maintain the status quo of the brahma-bhūta stage, as also to increase the degree of transcendental realization, it is recommended by Nārada to Vyāsadeva that he, Vyāsadeva, should now eagerly and repeatedly describe the path of devotional service. This would cure him from gross despondency." "Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows." Just like the modern newspaper. Huge bundle of newspaper every morning, huh? So it is, as it is said here, the place of enjoyment for the crows. Hmm? What is that? Vāyasaṁ tīrtham . *Vāyasaṁ . Vāyasaṁ means crows. The crows, they take pleasure in a place where all rubbish and refuses are thrown. They take pleasure. So what is this newspaper? All rubbish things, they are collected together. Nobody likes it to read. They just glance over for a few minutes, and then it is thrown away, rubbish. And even it is thrown there, nobody touches it. So they are spending huge, so many newspapers. Each newspaper several editions in a day, huge establishment, but there is no substance of life. That is being described. Na yad vacaś citra*-padaṁ harer yaśo . Read it. *"Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows. Since the all*-perfect persons are inhabitants of the transcendental abode, they do not derive any pleasure there." Purport. *"Crows and swans are not birds of the same feather because of their different mental attitudes. The fruitive workers or passionate men are compared to the crows, whereas the all*-perfect saintly persons are compared to the swans. Crows take pleasure in a place where garbage is thrown out, just as the passionate fruitive workers take pleasure in wine and women and places for gross sense pleasure. The swans do not take pleasure in the places where crows are assembled for conferences and meetings. They are instead seen in the atmosphere of natural scenic beauty, where there are transparent reservoirs of water nicely decorated with stems of lotus flowers in variegated colors of natural beauty. That is the difference between the two classes of birds. "Nature has influenced different species of life with different mentalities, and it is not possible to bring them up into the same rank and file. Similarly, there are different kinds of literature for different types of men of different mentality. Mostly the market literatures which attract men of the crow's categories are literatures containing refuse remnants of sensuous topics. They are generally known as mundane talks in relation with the gross body and subtle mind. They are full of subject matter described in decorative language full of mundane similies and metaphorical arrangements. Yet with all that, they do not glorify the Lord. Such poetry and prose on any subject matter is considered decoration of a dead body. Spiritually advanced men, who are compared with the swans, do not take pleasure in such dead literatures, which are sources of pleasure for men who are spiritually dead. These literatures in the modes of passion and ignorance are distributed under different labels, but they can hardly help the spiritual urge of the human being, and thus the swanlike spiritually advanced men have nothing to do with them. "Such spiritually advanced men are called also mānasa , because they always keep up the standard of transcendental voluntary service to the Lord on the spiritual plane. This completely forbids fruitive activities for gross bodily sense satisfaction or subtle speculation of the material egoistic mind. Social literary men, scientists, mundane poets, theoretical philosophers and politicians who are completely absorbed in the material advancement of sense pleasure are all dolls of the material energy. They take pleasure in a place where rejected subject matters are thrown. According to Śrīdhara Swami, this is the pleasure of the prostitute hunters. But literatures which describe the glories of the Lord are enjoyed by the paramahaṁsas who have grasped the essence of human activities." When you said that transcendentally spiritually advanced men are called mānasa , that means "with the mind," because they are always thinking of? Yes, always. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa padāravindayoḥ (SB 9.4.18). They are thinking of Kṛṣṇa. "On the other hand, that literature which is full of pastimes of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etcetera, of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest." *Purport: "It is a qualification of the great thinkers to pick up the best even from the worst. It is said that the intelligent man should pick up nectar from a stock of poison, should accept gold even from a filthy place, should accept a good and qualified wife even from an obscure family, and should accept a good lesson even from a man or from a teacher who comes from the untouchables. These are some of the ethical instructions for everyone in every place without exception. But a saint is far above the level of an ordinary man, and he is always absorbed in glorifying the Supreme Lord, because by broadcasting the holy name and fame of the Supreme Lord the polluted atmosphere of the world will change, and as a result of propagating the transcendental literatures like Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , people will become sane in their transactions. *"While preparing this commentation on this particular stanza of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam we have a crisis before us. Our neighboring friend China has attacked the border of India with a militaristic spirit. We have practically no business in the political field, yet we see that previously there were both China and India, and they both lived peacefully for centuries without ill feeling. The reason is that they lived those days in an atmosphere of God consciousness, and every country over the surface of the world was God-fearing, pure-hearted and simple, and there was no question of political diplomacy. There was no cause of quarrel between the two countries of China and India over land which is not very suitable for habitation, and certainly there was no cause for fighting on this issue. But due to the age of quarrel, Kali, which we have discussed, there is always a chance of quarrel on slight provocation. This is due not to the issue in question but to the polluted atmosphere of this age. Systematically there is propaganda by a section of people to stop glorification of the name and fame of the Supreme Lord. Therefore there is great need for disseminating the message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam all over the world. It is the duty of every responsible Indian to broadcast the transcendental message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam throughout the world to do all the supermost good, as well as to bring about the desired peace in the world. Because India has failed in her duty by neglecting this responsible work, there is so much quarrel and trouble all over the world. We are confident that if the transcendental message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is received only by the leading men of the world, certainly there will be a change of heart, and naturally the people in general will follow them. The mass of people in general are tools in the hands of modern politicians and leaders of the people. If there is a change of heart of the leaders only, certainly there will be a radical change in the atmosphere of the world. We know that our honest attempt to present this great literature conveying transcendental messages for reviving the God consciousness of the people in general and respiritualizing the world atmosphere is fraught with many difficulties. Our presenting this matter in adequate language, especially a foreign language, will certainly fail, and there will be so many literary discrepancies despite our honest attempt to present it in the proper way. But we are sure that with all our faults in this connection, the seriousness of the subject matter will be taken into consideration, and the leaders of society will still accept this, due to its being an honest attempt to glorify the almighty God. When there is fire in a house, the inmates of the house go out to get help from the neighbors, who may be foreigners, and yet without knowing the language, the victims of the fire express themselves and the neighbors understand the need, even though not expressed in the same language. The same spirit of cooperation is needed to broadcast this transcendental message of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam throughout the polluted atmosphere of the world. After all, it is a technical science of spiritual values, and thus we are concerned with the techniques and not with the language. If the techniques of this great literature are understood by the people of the world, there will be success. *"When there are too many materialistic activities by the people in general all over the world, there is no wonder that a person or nation attacks another person or nation on slight provocation. That is the rule of this age of Kali, or quarrel. The atmosphere is already polluted with corruption of all description, and everyone knows it well. There are so many unwanted literatures full of materialistic ideas of sense gratification. The people in general want to read. That is a natural instinct. But because their minds are polluted, they want such literatures. Under the circumstances, transcendental literature like Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam will not only diminish the activities of the corrupt minds of the people in general, but also it will supply food for their hankering after reading some interesting literature. In the beginning they may not like it, because one suffering from jaundice is reluctant to take sugar candy, but we should know that sugar candy is the only remedy for the jaundice. Similarly, let there be systematic propaganda for popularizing reading of the Bhagavad-gītā and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which will act like sugar candy for the jaundicelike condition of sense gratification. When men have a taste for this literature, the other literatures, which are catering poison to society, will then automatically cease. We are sure therefore that everyone in the human society will welcome Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , even though it is now presented with so many faults, for it is recommended by Śrī Nārada, who has very kindly appeared in this chapter." So what other literatures say? There is not one. In our Society we do not read even newspaper, is it not? Do we? Huh? Only in context to our preaching work. That is another thing. But generally . . . we do not derive any benefit from those. People read it, especially in the Western county. If there is no newspaper it is hell. I told you this story? Yes. You can repeat that. The preacher was preaching to the coal miners that if they were not good, they would go to hell, and in hell it was very cold. So they were thinking, "So it is very cold in the mine." Then he was saying that it is very dark in hell. "But it is very dark in the mine." Then he said, "And there are no newspapers." "Oh, how horrible! What a horrible place that must be." When they heard in the hell there is no newspaper, then came to the idea, "Oh, it is horrible." Otherwise, cold, dark, "Oh, this is our custom. We are already accustomed to these habits, we are working in the mine. So don't make any distinction between hell and our present residential quarters. But if there is no newspaper, certainly that is hell." *"Knowledge of self*-realization, even though freed from all material affinity, does not look well if devoid of a conception of the infallible God. What then is the use of fruitive activities, which are naturally painful from the very beginning and transient by nature, if they are not utilized for the devotional service of the Lord?" *Purport: "As referred to above, not only ordinary literatures devoid of the transcendental glorification of the Lord are condemned, but also Vedic literatures and speculation on the subject of impersonal Brahman when they are devoid of devotional service. When speculation on the impersonal Brahman is condemned on the above ground, then what to speak of ordinary fruitive work, which is not meant to fulfill the aim of devotional service. Such speculative knowledge and fruitive work cannot lead one to the goal of perfection. Fruitive work, in which almost all people in general are engaged, is always painful, either in the beginning or at the end. It can only be fruitful when made subservient to the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad*-gītā also it is confirmed that the result of such fruitive work may be offered for the service of the Lord, otherwise it leads to material bondage. The bona fide enjoyer of the fruitive work is the Personality of Godhead. And thus when it is engaged for the sense gratification of the living entities, it becomes an acute source of trouble." "O Vyāsadeva, your vision is completely perfect. Your good fame is spotless, you are firm in vow and situated in truthfulness, and thus you can think of the pastimes of the Lord in trance for the liberation of the people in general from all material bondage." Purport: "People in general have a taste for literature by instinct. They want to hear and read from the authorities something about the unknown, but their taste is exploited by unfortunate literatures, which are full of subject matter for satisfaction of the material senses. Such literatures contain different kinds of mundane poems and philosophical speculations more or less under the influence of māyā , ending in sense gratification. These literatures, although worthless in the true sense of the term, are variously decorated to attract the attention of the less intelligent men. Thus the attracted living entities are more and more entangled in material bondage without hope of liberation for thousands and thousands of generations. "Śrī Nārada Ṛṣi, being the best among the Vaiṣṇavas, is compassionate on such unfortunate victims of worthless literatures, and thus he advises Śrī Vyāsadeva to compose transcendental literature which is not only attractive but can also actually bring liberation from all kinds of bondage. Śrīla Vyāsadeva or his representatives are qualified because they are rightly trained to see things in true perspective. Śrīla Vyāsadeva and his representatives are pure in thought due to their spiritual enlightenment; fixed in their vows, due to their devotional service; *and determined to deliver the fallen souls rotting in material activities. The fallen souls are very eager to receive novel informations every day, and the transcendentalists like Vyāsadeva or Nārada can supply such eager people in general with unlimited news from the spiritual world. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that the material world is only a part of the whole creation, and that this earth is only a fragment of the whole material world. *"There are thousands and thousands of literary men all over the world, and they have created many, many thousands of literary works for the information of the people in general for thousands and thousands of years. Unfortunately . . . (break) . . . effect of liberation from the pangs of material civilization, which is eating the vital parts of the human energy. The Bhagavad*-gītā , which is the spoken message of the Lord Himself recorded by Vyāsadeva, and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which is the transcendental narration of the activities of the same Lord Kṛṣṇa, which alone can satisfy the hankering desires of the living being for eternal peace and liberation from miseries. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is, therefore, meant for all the living beings all over the universe for total liberation from all kinds of material bondage. Such transcendental narrations of the pastimes of the Lord can only be described by liberated souls like Vyāsadeva and his bona fide representatives, who are completely merged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. Only to such devotees do the pastimes of the Lord and their transcendental nature become automatically manifest by dint of devotional service. No one else can either know or describe the acts of the Lord, even if they speculate on the subject for many, many years. The descriptions of the Bhāgavatam are so precise and accurate that whatever has been predicted in this great literature about five thousand years before is now exactly happening. Therefore the vision of the author comprehends past, present and future. Such liberated persons like Vyāsadeva are not only perfect by the power of vision and wisdom but also in aural reception, in thinking, feeling and all other sense activities. A liberated person possesses perfect senses, and with perfect senses only can one serve the sense proprietor, Hṛṣīkeśa, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is therefore the perfect description of the all-perfect Personality of Godhead by the all-perfect personality, Śrī Vyāsadeva, the compiler of the Vedas ." Bring that chair forward. No, that's . . . (indistinct) "Whatever you desire to describe which is separate in vision from the Lord simply reacts with different forms, names and results to agitate the mind, as the wind agitates a boat which has no resting place." *Purport: "Śrī Vyāsadeva is the editor of all descriptions of the Vedic literatures, and thus he has described transcendental realization in different ways, namely by fruitive activities, speculative knowledge, mystic power and devotional service. Besides that, in his various Purāṇas he has recommended the worship of so many demigods in different forms and names. The result is that people in general are puzzled how to fix up their minds in the service of the Lord. They are always disturbed to find out the real path of self*-realization. Śrīla Nāradadeva is stressing this particular defect in the Vedic literatures compiled by Vyāsadeva, and thus he is trying to emphasize describing everything in relation with the Supreme Lord and no one else. In fact there is nothing existent except the Lord. The Lord is manifested in different expansions. He is the root of the complete tree. He is the stomach of the complete body. As such, pouring water on the root is the right process to water the tree, as much as feeding the stomach supplies energy to all parts of the body. *"Śrīla Vyāsadeva should not have compiled any Purāṇas other than the Bhāgavata Purāṇa , because a slight deviation from that may create havoc for self*-realization. If a slight deviation can create such havoc, then what to speak of deliberate expansion of the separatist idea from the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead? The most defective part of worshiping demigods is that it creates a definite conception of pantheism, ending disastrously in many religious sects detrimental to the progress of the principles of the Bhāgavatam , which alone can give the accurate direction for self-realization in eternal relation with the Personality of Godhead by devotional service in transcendental love. The example of the boat disturbed by whirling wind is suitable in this respect. The diverted mind of the pantheist can never reach to the perfection of self-realization, due to the disturbed condition of the selections of object." "The people in general are naturally inclined to enjoy, and you have encouraged them in that way in the name of religion. This is verily condemned and is quite unreasonable. Because they are guided under your instructions, they will accept such activities in the name of religion and will hardly care for prohibitions." *Purport: "Śrīla Vyāsadeva's compilation of various Vedic literatures on the basis of regulated performances of fruitive activities as depicted in the Mahābhārata and other literature is condemned herewith by Śrīla Nārada. The human beings, by long material association life after life, have a natural inclination by practice to endeavor to lord it over material energy. They have no sense of the responsibility of human life. This human form of life is a chance to get out of the clutches of illusory matter. The Vedas are meant for going back to Godhead, going back home. To revolve in the cycle of transmigration in a series of lives numbering 8,400,000 is an imprisoned life for the condemned conditioned souls. The human form of life is a chance to get out of this imprisoned life, and as such the only occupation of the human being is to reestablish his lost relationship with God. Under the circumstances, one should never be encouraged in making a plan for sense enjoyment in the name of religious functions. Such diversion of the human energy results in a misguided civilization. Śrīla Vyāsadeva is the authority in Vedic explanations and the Mahābhārata , etcetera, and his encouragement in sense enjoyment in some form or other is a great barrier for spiritual advancement, because the people in general will not agree to renounce material activities, which hold them in material bondage. At a certain stage of human civilization such material activities in the name of religion, as sacrificing animals in the name of yajña , were too much rampant. The Lord incarnated Himself as Buddha and decried the authority of the Vedas to stop animal sacrifice in the name of religion. This was foreseen by Nārada, and therefore he condemned such literatures. The flesh*-eaters still continue to perform animal sacrifice before some demigod or goddess in the name of religion, because in some of the Vedic literatures such regulated sacrifice is recommended. They are so recommended to discourage flesh eating, but gradually the purpose of such religious activities is forgotten and the slaughterhouse becomes prominent. This is because foolish materialistic men do not care to listen to others who are actually in a position to explain the Vedic rites. *"In the Vedas it is distinctly said that the perfection of life is never to be attained either by voluminous work or by accumulation of wealth or even by increasing the number of population, but it is so attained only by renunciation. The materialistic men do not care to listen to such injunctions. According to them, the so*-called renounced order of life is meant for those who are unable to earn their livelihood because of some corporeal defects or for persons who have failed to achieve prosperity in family life. In histories like the Mahābhārata , of course, there are topics on transcendental subjects along with material topics. The Bhagavad-gītā is there in the Mahābhārata . The whole idea of the Mahābhārata is culminated in the ultimate instructions of the Bhagavad-gītā , that one should relinquish all other engagements and should engage oneself solely and fully in surrendering unto the lotus feet of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. But men with materialistic tendencies are more attracted to politics, economics and philanthropic activities mentioned in the Mahābhārata than to the principal topic, namely the Bhagavad-gītā . This compromising spirit of Vyāsadeva is directly condemned by Nārada, who advises him to directly proclaim that the prime necessity of human life is to realize one's eternal relation with the Lord and thus surrender unto Him without delay. A patient suffering from a particular type of malady is almost always inclined to accept eatables which are forbidden for him. The expert physician does not make any compromise with the patient by allowing him to take partially what he should not take at all. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said that a man attached to fruitive work should not be discouraged from his occupation, for gradually he may be elevated to the position of self-realization. This is sometimes applicable for those who are only dry empiric philosophers without spiritual realization, but those who are in the devotional line need not be always so advised." "The Supreme Lord is unlimited. Only a very expert personality retired from the activities of material happiness deserves to understand this knowledge of spiritual values. Therefore those who are not so well situated due to material attachment should be shown the ways of transcendental realization by Your Goodness through descriptions of the transcendental activities of the Supreme Lord." *Purport: "Theological science is a difficult subject, especially when it deals with the transcendental nature of God. It is not a subject matter to be understood by persons who are too much attached to material activities. Only the very expert, who have almost retired from materialistic activities, by culture of spiritual knowledge can be admitted to the study of this great science. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is clearly stated that out of many hundreds and thousands of men, only one person deserves to enter into transcendental realization, and out of many thousands of such transcendentally realized persons, only a few can understand the theological science specifically dealing with God as a person. Śrī Vyāsadeva is therefore advised by Nārada to describe the science of God directly by relating His transcendental activities. Vyāsadeva is himself a personality expert in this science, and he is unattached to material enjoyment; therefore he is the right person to describe it. And Sukadeva Gosvāmī, the son of Vyāsadeva, is the right person to receive it. *" Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, and therefore it can react on the layman as medicinal doses. Because it contains the transcendental activities of the Lord, there is no difference between the Lord and the literature. The literature is the factual literary incarnation of the Lord so the laymen can hear the narration of the activities of the Lord. Thereby they are able to associate with the Lord and thus gradually become purified from material diseases. The expert devotees also can discover novel ways and means to convert the nondevotee in terms of particular time and circumstance. Devotional service is dynamic activities, and the expert devotees can find out competent means to inject it into the dull brains of the materialistic population. Such transcendental activities of the devotees for the service of the Lord can bring a new order of life to the foolish society of materialistic men. Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His subsequent followers exhibited expert dexterity in this connection. By following the same method one can bring the materialistic men of this age of quarrel into order for peaceful life and transcendental realization." What is the time now? About 7:20, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Should we take your leave? Any question regarding this? *Says " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, therefore it can react on the layman as medicinal doses"? If they simply hear, it will act as medicine. *Vyāsadeva is called tri*-kala-jñā —he sees past, present and future. How is it that he sees the future, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (indistinct—microphone rattling) Just like common business. Bring that black Bhāgavata . Five thousand years before *Bhāgavatam* was written, and so many foretelling are there, and they are arguing (microphone rattling—indistinct). If you like, you can keep it open. (referring to door) I was looking just now to see if my wife had . . . (indistinct) . . . can come in . . . (indistinct) . . . thought to open the door. Twelfth Canto, Third Chapter. *Tataś cānu*-dinaṁ dharmaḥ ? Hmm, before that. That is first chapter. *Read it, tataś cānu*-dinam , it is third chapter. This is second. First chapter, by the end, what it is written? (microphone rattling—indistinct) What is the last verse you read? Yes, this is the last verse. It says everyone is rājabhiś ca kṣayaṁ yāsyanti pīḍitāḥ . What is the note? *(Śrīdhara Svāmī's commentary) kiṁ ca , tan nāthas te nātha yeṣaṁ te jana*-pada deśa-vartino manuṣyas tac-chīlācārādinas teṣam iva śrīlamācāro . . . *The purport is that in the Kali*-yuga, the government men, they will be all rogues and thieves. So the citizens also follow them. Tan-natha , śīlācārya . Śīlācārya is their behavior. If the politicians, secretaries and big, big officers going to the brothels and drinking wine and enjoying, then what others will not? They will . . . (indistinct) . . . that's all. Go on, second chapter. Note? *Says that, er, kali*-dharmān prapañcayati-tataś cetyādinā . That's all? Yes. He doesn't say. *How things will deteriorate, that is explained here. Tataś cānu*-dinam ? Dharmaḥ satyaṁ śaucam . . . *With the progress of the Kali*-yuga . . . the Kali-yuga has begun from the . . . after the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra. So five thousand years ago. The whole duration of life of Kali-yuga is thirty-two hundred thousands of years. Thirty-two hundred thousands of years, out of which we have passed only five thousand years. Still, the balance is twenty-seven hundred thousands of years. So with the progress of this age, these things will happen. What is that? Tataś cānu-dinam ? Dharmaḥ satyam . Dharmaḥ . People will gradually decrease in their sense of religiosity, dharmaḥ . Then? Satyam . *They will be untruthful, hardly, because there is no training of brahminical culture how to become truthful. People think that "What is the wrong there, I shall speak something untruth?" So that means the value of truthfulness will decrease. And the importance of religion will decrease. This is the symptoms of Kali*-yuga. Then? Śaucam . Śaucam , cleanliness. People will become unclean more and more. Then? Kṣamā . Kṣamā . Formerly saintly persons and leaders, they used to excuse. Now that, the sense of excusing, "All right, this man has done something, excuse him," that will decrease. The sense of religiosity, truthfulness, and . . .? Truthfulness, cleanliness, śaucam . Cleanliness. Kṣamā . And kṣamā , kṣamā means pardon. Then? Dayā . Dayā , mercifulness. People will have no mercy. It has already begun. If somebody is attacked, being killed, nobody takes care; he goes in his own way. There is no mercy. There is no mercy to the animals. Now there is no mercy even to one's child; *one's own child, they are killing. Just see how degraded, dayā . What to speak of no dayā , no mercy for the animals—all right, you are not so advanced—but the mother's mercy to the child will be diminished. This is foretelling. This is called tri*-kala-jñā . Who expected that mother will kill the child? But Vyāsadeva, five thousand years ago, said, "Yes, mercy will be reduced." Then? Āyur . *Āyur , duration of life. The maximum duration of life in Kali*-yuga is hundred years, but who is living hundred years? It is being reduced, and it will be so reduced that if a man would live twenty years, he is an old man. It will come to that stage. Now it is reducing, from hundred years to ninety years to eighty years. *The average is seventy*-three years now. Seventy, then sixty then fifty. In this way, if a man lives from twenty to thirty years he will be considered grand old man. (laughter) These are the symptoms, āyur . Then? Balam . And bodily strength. Bodily strength . . . in India we, in our childhood, I have seen when British rule was there, all the Europeans were coming, very strong and stout and strong. Now such Europeans are not coming. Even bodily strength reduced. Then? Smṛtiḥ . *And memory. It will reduce. Just see, compare everything—religiosity and the power of mercifulness, pardoning, truthfulness, cleanliness, bodily strength, duration of life—they're all reduced. Now who can say it is not reduced? Can you say? This is called tri*-kala-jñā . Tatas , what is that? Cānu-dinaṁ rājan ? Kālena , in due course of time, all these items—there are eight items—it will be reducing, reducing, reducing. Reducing, reducing so much. So what is that? They say that men are living longer now compared to five hundred or six hundred years ago. Huh? They say that men are living longer now. The scientists, they say that there's less disease. They say that a hundred years ago people had more disease than . . . now they live longer. *That these rascals say. We do not say. We have seen in our childhood that my grandmother, she died at the age of ninety*-six years. There was no disease. The scientists say that there was disease, now there is no disease? They say there is less disease now. They say that . . . Less disease—everyone suffering from cancer. They are building more hospitals. Yes. Not less. Just see. They're increasing number of hospitals, and there is no disease? They say that a child has more of a chance of living now than . . . "They say," but what is the practical? They say all, as I repeatedly, pagale ki na bole chakole ki na khaya . A madman, what does he not say, and a goat, what does he not eat? So they are all madmen. (laughter) They can say all everything. They are experimenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with genes now. Hmm? You say that we are losing the qualities of memory, strength, but they are experimenting where they can isolate genes of persons who have those qualities and then put on . . . But we have to see actually what is happening. They are also transplanting livers and hearts, increasing the duration of life. So whatever they may do, things will happen like this. This is a fact. Can they increase the duration of life? People, can they make any scientific discovery that no man will die less than hundred years? Is there any such discovery? The only discoveries they have made so far are how to kill people quicker. Yes. Is there any discovery that here is a pill, you go on taking it, you'll not die before hundred years? Is there any discovery? Then what is the use of talking nonsense? They are reducing their life, that's a fact. And so far as mercy is concerned, we see how much it is reduced. The mother is killing child. Where is mercy now? So they may say anything like madman, but we see practically what is happening. Then? *So vittam , money. Money is the criterion, not family. Formerly, there was family, respectable family, aristocratic family, brāhmaṇa family, kṣatriya family. All these things are gone now. If you accumulate some money some way or other, then you are respectable, never mind what you are. That is Kali*-yuga symptom: their position in society, if you want to be respectable man, you somehow or other gather money. Never mind how we have gathered, what is the method. It doesn't matter. Get some money and you become respectable. Vittam eva hi . *Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . Ah, janmācāra . First of all, janma , the family, heredity, was taken into consideration, but that is now forgotten. Get money. Just like in England that the British Empire policy was that you bring money from outside and deposit in the government treasury and you become lord. Is it not? Bring money, some way or other. So that was going on, exploiting. They used to go to the foreign countries and somehow or other accumulate money. Just like Lord Clive. He was a street boy, but he made some policy. In this way, diplomacy, he entered into Bengal and got some money, and Lord Clive, he became Lord Clive. So money is the criterion. Some way or other, bring money, that's all. That's a fact. These are the symptoms. Just try to understand. *Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . If you have money, then you are aristocratic; then whatever you do, it is all right. Janmācāra , then? Guṇa . Guṇa . You are most qualified man. You may be a drunkard, you may be a prostitute hunter, whatever you may be, but because you have money you are a qualified man. Then? *Janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . Go on. *Dharma*-nyāya-vyavasthāyāṁ kāraṇaṁ balam eva hi . *Dharma*-nyāya . Now, if you want justice, you can get it according to your desire, justice, if you have got money. That is going on, that if you bribe to the court's men and even to the judge or magistrate, you get justice accordingly. That is going on. Dharma ācāra . Then? Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur . Hmm? Dāmpatye ? Dāmpatye abhirucir , hetur . . . *Abhirucir , yes. Now formerly marriage was a religious ceremony. Marriage was, this boy and this girl should be married, it is a religious function where the father and mother will see their horoscope and see if they are compatible, they will agree, they will live peacefully. So many things are there. Still, in India such things are calculated by the parents of the boy and the girl. Now, in this Kali*-yuga, you see, dāmpatye abhirucir . Abhirucir means the boy and the girl, if he likes, if he says, that's all. No other calculation. And then, after three days after marriage, they will divorce. (laughter) Because abhirucir , abhirucir : "I like, I don't like," that's all. Now I like, and after three days don't like, finished, business. In Chicago I saw a newspaper. One girl, within three weeks she has divorced two husbands. (laughter) Yes, I saw it in the newspaper. So this . . . formerly the father, mother used to see that this boy and girl is going to be married. So by horoscope, by other circumstances, by family, cultural . . . (indistinct) . . . by education, so many things, whether they will live peacefully. That was the understanding. Husband-wife means, a man requires a woman, a woman requires a man. They should be combined in such a way that they can live peacefully. If there is no disturbance of the mind, then they can make further progress in spiritual life. Therefore marriage is also necessary, and that must be properly done. This was the . . . now there is no such consideration. The boys and girls are free, and if one likes the other . . . dāmpatye . . . what is that? Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur . Hmm. Ruci . Ruci means liking. Then? I think it is māyaiva vyāvahārike . *Ah, māyaiva vyāvahārike . In ordinary dealings there is cheating. This is Kali*-yuga. Ordinarily, even when gentleman-gentleman, so-called gentlemen talking, he's trying to cheat him, he's trying to cheat him. By talking. And ordinarily. Māyaiva vyāvahārike . To talk with gentleman-gentleman, it is ordinary thing, but still there will be so many untruthfulness. Māyaiva vyāvahārike . Then? Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir vipratve sūtram eva hi . Hmm. And woman is nice, man is nice, this should be considered by sex power. Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir . Then? Vipratve sūtram eva hi . Vipratve sūtram eva hi . And there is a brāhmaṇa —what is the proof that he is a brāhmaṇa ? He has got a sacred thread, that's all. Or thread. It may not be sacred; *purchased from the market. So at least we try to give a sacred thread by ceremony. But anyone can purchase a thread from the market, two*-paisa worth or one-cent worth, and become a brāhmaṇa . "You are a brāhmaṇa ?" "Yes, you see my sacred thread?" (laughter) Finished. "What you are doing?" "Never mind." Don't be such brāhmaṇas , at least in our camp. You must follow the rules and regulations. Don't show that "I am now doubly initiated, sacred thread." Don't cheat in that way. Vipratve sūtram eva hi . Then? *Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv . *Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv . There are āśramas—brahmacārī , sannyāsī , gṛhastha . So they have got different dresses. So Kali-yuga, simply by dress he becomes a brahmacārī , he become a gṛhastha , he becomes a sannyāsī . Simply by dress. What he is acting, nobody cares, that's all. Then? Liṅgam , eva . Liṅgam means the external feature. This is the dress of a sannyāsī , this is the dress of a gṛhastha . Just like daṇḍa . Daṇḍa is the symptom that he is a sannyāsī . Then? *Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv anyonyāpatti-kāraṇam . Hmm. Then? *Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . *Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . If you have no money, then you cannot get justice. Cannot get . . .? *Justice. First of all you have to pay government so many percentage of money. Suppose somebody owes to you some money and he's not giving you. So if you want to go to the court, first of all you have to spend so much money. And if you have no money, then you cannot get your justice, money back. You have to pay this lawyer's fee, the stand duty, and so on, so on. But if you say, "I have no money," then forget justice. That's all. Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . Pāṇḍitye cāpalaṁ vacaḥ . Paṇḍita: if you can speak very vehemently any subject matter, people may or may not understand, and they will certify you, "Oh, this man is very learned." "What you have learned from him?" "Oh, I could not understand, but he spoke very nicely. He spoke very nicely." What is that nicely? That cāpala . (Prabhupāda speaks some gibberish) You go on speaking like that, (devotees laugh) and people will appreciate, "Oh, he's a big speaker!" What have you learned from him? Then? Then anadhyataivasādhutve sādhutve dambha eva tu . And if you are poor man, then you are not honest. That is the criterion. "Oh, here is a . . ." When the poor man comes, you'll not give place at your place. If he wants to stay, you'll refuse: "No." Because he's poor, he's immediately accepted as dishonest. He may be honest or dishonest, but poverty is a sign for accepting a man as dishonest. Then? Hmm. Svīkāra eva codvāhe . Marriage will go on simply by agreement, not by qualification. Svīkāra eva codvāhe . Snānam eva prasādhanam . And if you take bath, then all bodily cleanliness is finished, that's all. Then? *Dūre vāry*-ay . . . *Vāry*-ayanam . Oh. Dūre . . . *Dūre vāry*-ayanaṁ tīrtham . Tīrtham . If you go . . . Just like there is Vṛndāvana and here is New Vrindavan. But if you spend ten thousand dollars and go to Vṛndāvana, then it is pilgrimage. And here is Vṛndāvana-candra—so that is not very important. Dūre vāry-ayanam . You have to go far, far away, (laughter) then it will be pilgrimage. In India, there is Ganges in Calcutta. But they go to Hardwar. Then it is pilgrimage. (laughter) The same Ganges, coming from Hardwar. Then? *Dūre vāry*-ayanaṁ tīrthaṁ lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam . *Hmm. Lāvaṇyam , now you know very well in the Western country. Beauty increases by having long hair. (laughter) I was just trying to recite this verse only, and now see how it is current. Who expected that this foretelling is there in the Bhāgavatam ? To increase beauty, have long hair. Is it not? Now just see. How five thousand years this thing was foretold? That is the proof. There was no hippie movement then. (laughs) But Vyāsadeva foretold that in the Kali*-yuga, if one keeps long hair he will think himself as very beautiful. There are so many things. *So ultimately, with the advancement of Kali*-yuga you'll have no food. Food means there will be no food grains, there will be no milk, there will be no sugar—like that. No fruits. If you get fruits, there will be no pulp; it is simply seeds. These things are there. You get a mango, but a mango means simply the big seed, that's all. So how can you check it? If nature's way things are going to happen like that, what the scientists will do? If there is no rice, no wheat, will the scientists . . .? They can say replace with a pill, but they cannot produce wheat or rice or ḍāl or milk, sugar. That is not possible. Śrīla Prabhupāda? They have fashioned a way for the spacemen that they can drink their own urine and eat their own stool. Yes, that is the most scientific improvement. (laughter) Yes. That they can do. (laughter) By scientific improvement, they can drink their own urine, very tasty. That is possible. With all these disqualifications, how can the general mass of people take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Yes. That is the only remedy. That is stated there. You'll find this verse, *It is, the Kali*-yuga, it is an ocean of faults. How . . .? Suppose all over your body there are boils. So where you will apply ointment? You just dip down. (laughter) (end) Conversation A -- June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA (indistinct) . . . the pilot for 747, paying him a large sum of money. And here is airplane, everything complete with a pilot. Create by your scientific brain. Rascal, you are so proud of your scientific . . . In Māyāpur, you said that the mosquito's body is so perfect that although with one slap it's finished, still it has a syringe so strong that it immediately, upon landing on the skin, it can penetrate and extract blood. *Immediately, just see. And if you allow one second, he'll fill the whole body up by sucking the . . . just see what is that nozzle, and how quickly they can . . . there is no intelligence? The mosquito has better intelligence than any human being about his business. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said, sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām ( SB 7.6.3). That particular body, he is destined to enjoy a certain amount of sense gratification according to his body. Like that. Sarvatra labhyate daivād . God's arrangement is nice. He can get it. The mosquito is getting. He wanted to suck blood, so he has been given a teeny body, he can suck blood, very little quantity. So arrangement is there. He's satisfying his senses, daivād , by arrangement of God. So why you are endeavoring? Even it is there in the mosquito, even it is there in the tiger or any animal or man, it is already arranged. Why you are wasting time in that way? Simply sense gratification. Who will understand this philosophy? The fact is explained. That gentleman, Subramanian, is very much appreciative. Hmm. *Those who are sane men, they are appreciating that here is a movement actually for the benefit . . . it is not sentimental, cheating, bluffing, economic development. Do economic development. Why you forget your real business? Tat*-prayāso na kartavyo yena āyur . . . what is that? Vyayaḥ param , simply wasting the valuable time of our life. If you want to suck blood, just become a mosquito. (laughs) Pray to God: "Give me the body of a mosquito." Quickly you will get. Yānti deva-vratā devān , bhūtejyaḥ yānti bhūtāni (BG 9.25). You'll get it. Kīrtanānanda is here with the car. (microphone rattling) (outside) *Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simply expand this idea. Kṛṣī*-go-rakṣya-vāṇījyam (BG 18.44). (end) Conversation A -- June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA (indistinct) . . . the pilot for 747, paying him a large sum of money. And here is airplane, everything complete with a pilot. Create by your scientific brain. Rascal, you are so proud of your scientific . . . In Māyāpur, you said that the mosquito's body is so perfect that although with one slap it's finished, still it has a syringe so strong that it immediately, upon landing on the skin, it can penetrate and extract blood. *Immediately, just see. And if you allow one second, he'll fill the whole body up by sucking the . . . just see what is that nozzle, and how quickly they can . . . there is no intelligence? The mosquito has better intelligence than any human being about his business. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said, sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām ( SB 7.6.3). That particular body, he is destined to enjoy a certain amount of sense gratification according to his body. Like that. Sarvatra labhyate daivād . God's arrangement is nice. He can get it. The mosquito is getting. He wanted to suck blood, so he has been given a teeny body, he can suck blood, very little quantity. So arrangement is there. He's satisfying his senses, daivād , by arrangement of God. So why you are endeavoring? Even it is there in the mosquito, even it is there in the tiger or any animal or man, it is already arranged. Why you are wasting time in that way? Simply sense gratification. Who will understand this philosophy? The fact is explained. That gentleman, Subramanian, is very much appreciative. Hmm. *Those who are sane men, they are appreciating that here is a movement actually for the benefit . . . it is not sentimental, cheating, bluffing, economic development. Do economic development. Why you forget your real business? Tat*-prayāso na kartavyo yena āyur . . . what is that? Vyayaḥ param , simply wasting the valuable time of our life. If you want to suck blood, just become a mosquito. (laughs) Pray to God: "Give me the body of a mosquito." Quickly you will get. Yānti deva-vratā devān , bhūtejyaḥ yānti bhūtāni (BG 9.25). You'll get it. Kīrtanānanda is here with the car. (microphone rattling) (outside) *Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simply expand this idea. Kṛṣī*-go-rakṣya-vāṇījyam (BG 18.44). (end) Conversation -- June 27, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA (Garden Conversation) So, any question from the newcomers? This gentleman, he owns this house, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yes, I know him. He mentions that he met you way back in 1966, in Tompkins Square Park. Yes. (pause) (break) If you go somewhere, you must know first of all why you have gone there. That is the first question. If you go to a store, the first business is that you have gone to purchase some particular thing from the store. That is understood. Similarly, why one should go to a spiritual master? What is the purpose? Answer, any one of you. One is . . . when one is confused and frustrated by this material existence, he wants to find an answer to his problems. So there are different authorities in the world offering solutions, but one has to find the actual authority. That is the purport. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsu śreya uttamam ( SB 11.3.21). One has to go to guru when one is inquisitive. Jijñāsu . Jijñāsu means we want to know so many things; that is our nature. Child also wants to know. He asks his parents, "What is this, father? What is this, mother?" That inquisitiveness is there in everyone. So when one wants to know about the Supreme, then he requires a guru , or spiritual master. It is not a fashion, that "Everyone keeps a guru; *let me also have a guru ." Not like that. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12): "In order to understand the transcendental science, one has to go to guru ." Jijñāsu śreya uttamam . After artha . . . just like generally, naturally, one goes to temple, church, four classes of men. One is needy: "O God, give us our daily bread." One thinks . . . actually, that is the fact. God gives us bread. So traditionally we are trained up. So we go to God, "Give us our daily bread." Similarly, one who wants to know what is God. Just like in our society, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they see that these boys, young boys, they have given up everything, they are after Kṛṣṇa. What is this Kṛṣṇa? That is intelligent. Why they are after this Kṛṣṇa? Then he has to go to a person, guru . In this way, there are many circumstances. But the real purpose is to know the Supreme. One who is inquisitive or anxious to know about the Supreme, then there is necessity of guru . Otherwise, what is the use of it? One who is not inquisitive to understand the Supreme, he has no business for a guru . *But everyone has necessity to understand the Supreme. That is human life. A dog cannot inquire what is God, because he is dog. But a man can do that. He has got that developed intelligence. So if a man does not inquire about the Supreme Truth, he is no better than a dog. If one does not seek after spiritual master, he's a dog. He's in the standard of dog. Because that inquiry is the particular business of human being, to inquire about the Supreme. If he does not inquire, that still he's on the platform of dog. First of all, you have understood it or not? So any human being with developed intelligence must go to a spiritual master. If he does not go, then he's still in the animal platform. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means he must. If he does not, then he is in the animal platform. Śrīla Prabhupāda? So if one is looking for a guru , but there are many people they are proclaiming themselves guru , and they are speaking "Supreme," "God," how may one tell the actual guru ? That is, if you want to purchase something, you must know where to purchase. Otherwise, you may be cheated. You, generally, you ask your friend that "I want to purchase some diamond, so can you give me some reliable address where I can go and purchase?" Generally, people do that. So you have to do that. If you want to purchase, you must know the preliminary understanding where diamond can be purchased. And if you are not aware of it, you may be cheated. That preliminary knowledge you must have. That means best thing is, those who are dealing with diamonds, you go there. Just like if anyone is inquisitive to understand God, so best thing is those who are dealing with God only, they have no other business. Then you go there. That is the intelligent. Why should you go to a cheater? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is especially distributing knowledge about God. So why do they not come here and inquire? First thing is, unless one is inquisitive to understand God, or Absolute Truth, he has no necessity of guru . But if he is actually serious, then he must go to a person where the dealing is only God. That's all. Just like ordinarily, if anyone wants to purchase some share of company, he goes to the share market and he sees the price of different shares, and he selects. So everything requires little intelligence, then it is all right. Otherwise, you may be cheated. Whatever business you do, you must do it intelligently. But if you are foolishly doing something, you may be cheated. Why we are opening so many centers all over the world? We are giving opportunity, people, to come and understand about God. Why do they not come here? Then he can make his judgment that "Here is the genuine party." And if one accepts some cheap God, that means he has no understanding about God. He's a rascal. If I say I'm God and somebody accepts me as God, then he's a foolish man. They do not know what is meaning of God. If one wants God, he must know at least what is meant by God. Every scripture, just like in Bible it is said, "God has created this universe." So if you come to me and accept me as God, why don't you test whether I have created another universe like this? Why you accept a cheap God who hasn't done anything? Simply he's bluff, and he says that "I am God." So why do you accept as God? Hmm? I was going to get you a fan, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for the flies. That would be nice. There's no fan here. Why should we accept a cheap God? Everything requires intelligence. If you are not intelligent, then every transaction you may be cheated. Everyone has heard "God is great." So great means there should be nobody equal to Him and nobody greater than Him. That is greatness. So test that man whether he has no competitor, another God. Nowadays there are so many Gods. So God is great, why there is another competitor? This is intelligence. Prabhupāda? Can one make progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . No, no. First of all, whatever we are talking you should understand, then bring another question. Don't puzzle. One question decide. Don't make it whimsical dictionary. Then it is not good. First of all decide one question clearly. So the bona fide guru does not claim to be God, but he gives knowledge of God, and he only deals with God. Yes, that is bona fide guru . A very common occurrence in the Western countries, they say that anyone can be guru . In fact, one Westerner who went to India and came back—he's very popular in the United States today—he says that everyone is guru and everyone is God. And people accept that? Yes. People are accepting. Now you discuss this point. Discuss this point. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Bhagavad*-gītā . . . No, first of all, you discuss this point, everyone is God and everyone is guru . Only if one hears from the right authority can one be guru. Has to be . . . spiritual knowledge is descending. The premise of the *Vedas* is that there's a creator of everything. Hmm? *There's a creator of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Origin of everything. The premise of these so*-called spiritual masters . . . No, this is a common sense. If everyone is God, then what is the necessity of finding out a guru ? Guru means who explains about God. Everyone is God, then what is the use of explanation? There is no need of guru . How can God be controlled by His own energy, illusory energy? So many things. Foolish men can accept that "Everyone is God, everyone is guru ." That is foolish man's proposition and accepted by fools. It is explained in Back to Godhead magazine that a person who teaches how to serve Kṛṣṇa, how to serve God, is guru . Someone tells you that he is guru . . . (indistinct) . . . a dog. Back to Godhead magazine explains. So to accept a spiritual master must mean that one is in ignorance and one is enlightened. For ignorance there is no need of guru . An ignorance cannot inquire about God. Intelligent man can inquire about God. We have to pick up our children . . . (indistinct) . . . thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Pick up children from a school? From somewhere. Do you know him? They're from Wheeling. Once you said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, "If you are God, what will you do when I kick on your face?" Because if God is creating the sun, such a great planet in the sky, thousands of tons of energy, so if they are the source of the sun, but "What can they do if I kick in their face? Nothing. So how is that God?" Kṛṣṇa, when . . . someone was . . . Paundraka, he was saying he was God. He said, "All right, hold My cakra." And He took off his head. So to these false Gods we can say, "What will you do if we kick you in the face? You cannot save yourself." That is the proper treatment. (laughter) *Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is one common philosophy also held by a lot of religious groups that God can be understood directly from within, and that no guru or spiritual master is necessary. That if I desire to approach God, and if He's all*-powerful, He can instruct me from within. They feel like this. Therefore they dispute our claim that we understand God in a different way, that you need a genuine spiritual master. And yet when we approach them, one man will say he has God within his heart and he understands God in this way, and another man is receiving instruction from God from within the heart, and yet he's saying another thing. So? Yet they continue to claim like that, so . . . Yes, when God teaches Arjuna . . . his realization from within should be the same as Kṛṣṇa is teaching to Arjuna. It should be confirmed by śāstra. He was saying that these people say, "God is instructing me from within," but they all have different philosophies. But he's a rascal, and who accepts him, he's a rascal. How do you think that God is speaking to him? How do you accept it? How do you accept that God is speaking to him? Well, I don't accept it. But you are advocating. Why do you accept this? He would say that he has turned his . . . He would say, but you must know that he's talking foolish. How God can talk with him? What is the condition? Therefore you have to read books. Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). *No. God talks with whom? That is said. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānaṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10). Those who have already become devotee of God and engaged in His service, He talks with him. Not he's a third-class fool. He doesn't talk with him. It is clearly stated, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām , one who is twenty-four-hours engaged in the service of the Lord, with love and faith, God talks with him. That is clearly stated. How do you understand that God is talking with him, a rascal fool, who has no business with God? God talks with devotee, very sincere devotee who is already engaged in God's service. He talks with him. But then he might say, "But I love God." *He might say, that is another thing. The standard is this. He may say—he's a rascal, he can say so many nonsense things. That is not the standard. He says that "God is talking with me." So I have to see whether he's a candidate with whom God can talk. The formula is teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10): "One who is twenty-four-hours engaged in My service with love and faith," God talks with him. So first of all see whether he's twenty-four-hours engaged in God's service with love and faith. Then you can understand, "Yes, God is talking with him." But he has no preliminary qualification, if he says, "I can talk with God," he's a nonsense. That means because you are a nonsense, you are talking about him that God talks with him. You do not know with whom God talks. So you are nonsense also. You accept him, "Yes, he may be talking with God." How he can talk? That means you are also nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks. Why do you accept such proposition? If some storekeeper says that "I have passed M.A., L.L.D.," and I have to accept that? You must know with whom God talks. That means you are nonsense. You are accepting nonsensically. And a person who is constantly engaged in God's service, unless he's trained up by a spiritual master, how can he be engaged? So without spiritual master, one cannot be engaged in devotional service; and without devotional service, nobody's eligible to talk with God. So that nonsense talking, that without spiritual master God talking, and he has become perfect, this is all nonsense. One who believes, he is also nonsense. He does not know God. To raise such question means nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks; therefore you have brought this question. Otherwise, you would have kicked immediately. It is impossible. What do you think? I understand what you are saying. Then why do you raise this question? It's a matter of argument also. Argument? Why do you bring such nonsense argument, waste time? Don't waste time. You are ignorant, you are accepting. Don't remain ignorant. It is common sense. Is it so easy that one can talk with God? If some common man says, "Just now I went to Mr. Ford and talked with him. I'm coming back from him," so any gentleman will believe that? So these are our insufficiency, that we believe such thing. We are not properly trained up. Simply waste time. That's not good. He may talk nonsense; why I shall accept nonsense? The same example: If somebody comes, "Now I'm just coming from talking with Mr. Ford, the President," shall I have to believe? If he's a common man, how he can talk with President Ford? If I believe, then I am also nonsense. Where is that? We don't have a fan in here . . . I have go somewhere else. I have to bring a fan from somewhere else. *No, no, bring, you can bring some soft cloth. Why this is? You bring some soft cloth. So don't indulge such nonsense question. You must personally understand. That is knowledge. If you are reading Bhagavad*-gītā , how you can accept nonsense, he says that "I can talk with Kṛṣṇa without spiritual master"? It is absurd proposition. So why you should accept such absurd proposition unless you are also another absurd? If you knew that it is not possible, you, "You rascal." Don't talk with him. Don't waste time. But you also do not know with whom God talks. Clearly stated. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ (BG 10.10). Teṣām evānukampārtham (BG 10.11). Why don't you read all these proposals? With whom God talks? Hmm? Why did you not? I'm familiar with those verses. *Then why did you not say that "God talks with such*-and-such person, but you are not such and such. Why you are talking nonsense? That means you are cheating. But you cannot cheat me. I know." So you must know. You must know with whom God talks. Śrīla Prabhupāda, does this mean that we should not speak with those who ask such questions? But you must know how to answer it! Otherwise, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why there are so many books? You do not read it; you do not know how to answer it even. That means you do not read. If you knew that God does not speak with rascals or anyone ordinary, then you would have immediately replied, "God does not speak to you. It is not possible. It requires qualification." Why should you believe it and waste your time? Śrīla Prabhupāda, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu prays that one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige. How do we lose that desire for false prestige? Answer him. *Desire for false prestige? First of all, ceto*-darpana-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). The heart is full of so many dirty things, and basically all of these revolve around the bodily concept of life—I think I'm this body. Therefore we're desiring honor, we don't like to be dishonored; and looking for so many gains, we don't like to lose something. So there are so many dualities that exist: respect and disrespect, honor and dishonor. So when you become purified, freed from the bodily concept of life by chanting, then naturally honor and dishonor, they are not very important; they are only in relationship to the body. (aside) Come nearer. Yes. Now argue, whether you are satisfied with his answer. If not, say it. In this way, discuss. Are you satisfied with his answer? Yes, Prabhupāda. That's all right. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, it says that the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta is the postgraduate study for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Hmm, hear him. What does he say? *Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the postgraduate study . . . *Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , postgraduate study. *So if we're very attracted to reading Caitanya*-caritāmṛta now, but we haven't finished Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , is that good? Or should we wait until we have studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam thoroughly? *It does not mean that one who is not postgraduate, he cannot read other books. Spiritual life is not a stereotype like that. But one who is not postgraduate, it is little difficult for him to understand the statement of . . . just like in the beginning of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said, na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāj jagati para-tattvaṁ param iha (CC Adi 1.3), that there is no superior truth than Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So if you have not studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , you'll not understand this statement. If you understand, "Yes, Caitanya is the Supreme Truth," then it is to be understood that you have graduated. And if you are not, then it will be difficult for you to understand. *Then the more we understand Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , the more we'll understand the Caitanya-caritāmṛta . *Yes, and if you understood Bhāgavatam thoroughly, then you can understand Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . But if you have not understood Bhāgavatam , then you cannot understand Caitanya-caritāmṛta . The simple statement, na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāt para-tattvaṁ param iha . Where is Caitanya-caritāmṛta ? Bring. Which volume, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *First volume. That means you are not reading, you simply are referring. This is the difficulty. Without thoroughly reading something, we bring so many questions. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore forbidden, bahu śāstra nā pore . Don't bother yourself reading so many books at a time. You'll be puzzled. Find out this verse, yad advaitaṁ brahmopaniṣadi tad apy asya tanu*-bhā . I don't believe there's an index in this first volume. In the first chapter you'll find. In the first seventeen verses, "What is described in the *Upaniṣads* . . ." Yad advaita . . . *Yad advaitaṁ brahma*-upaniṣadi . Go, find out. "What the *Upaniṣads* describe as the impersonal Brahman is but the effulgence of His body, and the Lord known as the Supersoul is but His localized plenary portion. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa Himself, full with six opulences. He is the Absolute Truth, and no other truth is greater than or equal to Him." *This is the beginning of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . So will anyone be able to understand this verse? Hmm? Everything is stated there, what is Caitanya. Will everyone be able to understand it? That is the proof that he's not graduate. If he is graduate, then he should understand. Therefore it is postgraduate. *One must understand Bhagavad*-gītā before Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam ? *Yes. It is stated there, yad advaitaṁ brahma upaniṣadi . That means he must understand the Upaniṣads . He must understand what is Brahman. So without understanding this, how he can understand Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ? It will be explained there, but the fact is this. What is that? Is there any explanation? No, no purport to this verse. So further on there is explanation. Find out that. *Śrīla Prabhupāda? How does one know when he has the understanding of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? What does he say? Answer him. What did you say? *How does one know when he has the understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā ? *One has understood Bhagavad*-gītā who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, because Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), that "The essence of all knowledge is to surrender unto Me, to give up all other duties." So one who takes that instruction as life and soul, he has understood Bhagavad-gītā . Is that all right? The same verse again in the Second Chapter. (break) "The *Upaniṣads* , which are considered the most elevated portion of the Vedic literatures, are meant for persons who desire to get free from material association and who therefore approach a bona fide spiritual master for enlightenment. The prefix upa indicates that one must receive knowledge about the Absolute Truth from a spiritual master. One who has faith in his spiritual master actually receives transcendental instruction, and as his attachment for material life slackens, he is able to advance on the spiritual path. Knowledge of the transcendental science of the *Upaniṣads* . . ." Where is that boy? You are hearing? Yes, Prabhupāda. "Knowledge of the transcendental science of the *Upaniṣads* can free one from the entanglement of existence in the material world, and when thus liberated, one can be elevated to the spiritual kingdom of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by advancement in spiritual life. *"The beginning of spiritual enlightenment is realization of impersonal Brahman. Such realization is effected by gradual negation of material variegatedness. Impersonal Brahman realization is the partial, distant experience of the Absolute Truth that one achieves through the rational approach. It is compared to one's seeing a hill from a distance and taking it to be a smoky cloud. A hill is not a smoky cloud, but it appears to be one from a distance because of our imperfect vision. In imperfect or smoky realization of the Absolute Truth, spiritual variegatedness is conspicuous by its absence. This experience is therefore called advaita*-vāda , or realization of the oneness of the Absolute. *"The impersonal glowing effulgence of Brahman consists only of the personal bodily rays of the Supreme Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Since Śrī Gaurasundara, or Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, is identical with Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself, the Brahman effulgence consists of the rays of His transcendental body. Similarly, the Supersoul, which is called the Paramātmā, is a plenary representation of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The antaryāmi , the Supersoul in everyone's heart, is the controller of all living entities. This is confirmed in Bhagavad*-gītā , wherein Lord Kṛṣṇa says, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ : "I am situated in everyone's heart." (BG 15.15) Bhagavad-gītā also states, Fifth Chapter, twenty-ninth verse, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29), indicating that the Supreme Lord, acting in His expansion as the Supersoul, is the proprietor of everything. Similarly, the Brahma-saṁhitā states, aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35): the Lord is present everywhere, within the heart of every living entity and within each and every atom as well. Thus by this Supersoul feature the Lord is all-pervading. "Furthermore, Lord Caitanya is also the master of all wealth, strength, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation because He is Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself. He is described as pūrṇa , or complete. In the feature of Lord Caitanya, the Lord is an ideal renouncer, just as Śrī Rāma was an ideal king. He accepted the order of sannyāsa and exemplified exceedingly wonderful principles in His own life. No one can compare to Him in the order of sannyāsa ." (aside) Not like that. *"Although in Kali*-yuga acceptance of the sannyāsa order is generally forbidden, Lord Caitanya accepted it . . ." (aside) On the head. *". . . because He is complete in renunciation. Others cannot imitate Him but can only follow in His footsteps as far as possible. Those who are unfit for this order of life are strictly forbidden by the injunctions of the śāstras to accept it. Lord Caitanya, however, is complete in renunciation as well as all other opulences. He is therefore the highest principle of the Absolute Truth. By an analytical study of the truth of Lord Caitanya, one will find that He is not different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. No one is greater than or even equal to Him. In Bhagavad*-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): 'O conqueror of wealth (Arjuna), there is no truth superior to Me.' Thus it is here confirmed that there is no truth higher than Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. *"The impersonal Brahman is the goal of those who cultivate the study of books of transcendental knowledge, and the Supersoul is the goal of those who perform the yoga practices. One who knows the Supreme Personality of Godhead surpasses realization of both Brahman and Paramātmā, because Bhagavān is the ultimate platform of absolute knowledge. The Personality of Godhead is the complete form of sac*-cidananda (full life, knowledge and bliss). By realization of the sat portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited existence), one realizes the impersonal Brahman of the Lord. By realization of the cit portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited knowledge), one can realize the localized aspect of the Lord, Paramātmā. But neither of these partial realizations of the Complete Whole can help one realize ānanda , or complete bliss. Without such realization of ānanda , knowledge of the Absolute Truth is incomplete. *"This verse of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta by Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī is confirmed by a parallel statement in the Tattva-sandarbha by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī. In the Eighth Part of Tattva-sandarbha it is said that the Absolute Truth is sometimes approached as impersonal Brahman, which, although spiritual, is only a partial representation of the Absolute Truth. Nārāyaṇa, the predominating Deity in Vaikuṇṭha, is to be known as an expansion of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, but Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Absolute Truth, the object of the transcendental love of all living entities." So is it clear? (laughs) It is not so easy. (laughter) Therefore it is postgraduate. Can these things be understood theoretically, Śrīla Prabhupāda, or is realization required? Realization required. What is the use of theoretical knowledge? Śrīla Prabhupāda, can realization be had through service without theoretical understanding? *This whole science is understood through service only. Everything becomes revealed. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). Revelation. Everything is revelation. Unless one is very sincere servant, there is no revelation. Śrīla Prabhupāda, it described a gradual process of realizing Kṛṣṇa, but does the devotee go through these levels of understanding Brahman then Paramātmā then Bhagavān? Hmm? (microphone moving) It was described how the levels of understanding the Absolute—Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Does the devotee gradually go through these levels, or does he immediately realize Brahman when his service is perfect? That depends on his capacity. (aside) Just on the head do it. Mahārāja Kīrtanānanda said that our actual realization comes through our actions. So we are, in building this New Vrindavan, we are actually . . . this is taken to be our preaching, or our life and soul. What is your question? My question is how do we . . . Prabhupāda, his question is will one become realized by continually engaging in devotional service under the direction of a bona fide representative of the spiritual master? The question is that his service is here in New Vrindavan under Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Will serving the representative of the spiritual master . . . is that as good as serving the spiritual master? Will it get the same result? I don't think that was the question. No? At least, I understand the question to be: Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth? That is the Absolute Truth. Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth? Yes. Absolute means there is no difference. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's service, the same. So discuss it further. Is that to say that if one— brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11)—that if one simply goes on serving, engaging in all sorts of different activities for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, but he never, in this lifetime at least, has realization of Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān . . .? *What is the difficulty? Everything is explained. By seeing the sun one can understand the sunshine, the sun globe and the sun*-god. There are three things. Within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke to Vivasvata." So there is a person Vivasvata, and the globe is there, we see, and the sunshine is there. So what is the difficulty to understand? Hmm? Three things are there. The person within the sun globe, Vivasvata, is there; *otherwise how Kṛṣṇa could speak with him? He says, imaṁ vivasvate yogam : "Unto Vivasvata I spoke." So there is a person. And we can see the globe, and we can see the sunshine. Is there any difficulty? So similarly, the Brahman is the sunshine, light, and Paramātmā is the sun globe, and Bhagavān is the sun*-god. This is . . . the sun is one example. From this example we can understand the Absolute. Where is the difficulty? (aside) Sit down properly. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). As heat and light, all of them are the same . . . in the sunshine there is heat and light, in the sun globe there is heat and light, and within the sun globe there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. You can tolerate the heat and light of the sunshine, but if you go to the sun globe you'll be finished. Temperature's so high, it requires a special qualification. Similarly, from heat and light point of view, Brahman, Paramātmā, Bhagavān, the same. Everywhere there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. So one who understands Brahman, he cannot understand Paramātmā. He understands, but not as thoroughly. Similarly, one who understands Paramātmā, he can understand Bhagavān. But if you understand Bhagavān, then you understand Paramātmā, Brahman, everything. So we should simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa? Yes. No. Try to understand everything, but understanding Kṛṣṇa, you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam eva vijñātaṁ bhavanti (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). And because you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore you do not understand Brahman, you do not understand Paramātmā. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then it is automatically understood. We have not understood Brahman, Paramātmā, because we have not understood Kṛṣṇa properly. Kṛṣṇa says, aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "I am the source of everything." So Brahman is also from Kṛṣṇa, Paramātmā is also from Kṛṣṇa. And so other Bhagavāns—there are so many Bhagavāns also—they are from Kṛṣṇa. *So if you understand Kṛṣṇa you can understand everything. And as soon as you say that you have not understood it, therefore you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. They cannot understand. Just like Māyāvādīs, they do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore they do not understand Brahman also. And therefore they fall down, because they have not understood either Brahman or Kṛṣṇa. Patanty adhaḥ . This is stated in the śāstra . Anādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32), because they have not understood Kṛṣṇa, even they have gone up to the Brahman, they cannot stand there; they fall down. Again they come to the material world. The Māyāvādīs, they say, brahma satyma jagan mithyā : "Brahman is truth, and this material world is false." They take sannyāsa , but after some time they fall down, again take to other businesses than Brahman in the material world. Just like our Vivekananda. He came to the Western countries to preach Vedānta , and he has advertised that "Whole America has become Vedāntist ." The proof of Vedānta is when he returned to India he became very enthusiastic to open hospitals, like the Christian missionaries. So if the material world is false, so why he's trying to open hospital? Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . Jagat is mithyā . So why in the mithyā platform he's taking credit by opening hospital? Well, as long as people are suffering, they can't realize that they are God. So you cannot stop the suffering. You are unable. You are also suffering from the same disease. So don't say that jagat mithyā . If they are suffering, that's a fact. Then how do you say it is mithyā , it is false? If it is mithyā , then why you are affected by the suffering? There are so many questions. That means not realization. Contradictory. If you feel the suffering, then why you call it mithyā ? It is fact. Why do you say it is mithyā ? That means you have no realization. You are accepting suffering as mithyā . We say suffering is not mithyā; it is fact. But if you want to save from suffering, then you get out of this material world. We don't say that, that suffering is mithyā or this world is mithyā . We don't say that. We are offering this flower to Kṛṣṇa, not as mithyā; *it is a means of service. Why shall I say it is mithyā ? By offering . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26): by offering a little flower. How can I say this is mithyā ? Māyāvādīs' philosophy, it is mithyā . With mithyā we can approach the satya ? By hundreds of false we can make one truth? Kṛṣṇa says that "If you offer Me a little flower," so how can I say this is mithyā ? It is not mithyā . It is satya . When it is satya ? When it is offered to Kṛṣṇa. And when you take it for your sense gratification, that is mithyā . That is mithyā . You cannot enjoy it. If you enjoy it, then go to hell. If you offer it to Kṛṣṇa, you go to Him. So how can I say it is mithyā ? You cannot approach Kṛṣṇa with something mithyā . Then Kṛṣṇa becomes mithyā . There are so many things to be studied. We don't say like that. We find there is relationship of Kṛṣṇa with everything. When we find this beautiful rose, we find the intelligence of Kṛṣṇa. By Kṛṣṇa's intelligence it has come out so nice, fragrant, beautiful. They say it is made by nature. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). So under Kṛṣṇa's direction nature has made it so beautiful. That is a fact. Therefore I find there is hand of Kṛṣṇa in this flower. So Kṛṣṇa has made this; this is Kṛṣṇa's property; it should be offered to Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti. We are not offering something mithyā to Kṛṣṇa. It is fact. It is made by Kṛṣṇa. If you say, "No, no, I don't touch this flower," so what is credit there? You have not prepared it. You touch or not touch, it doesn't matter. If you say, "No, no, it is material. I don't touch it," you may not touch it, but you do not know it is not material, it is spiritual, it is made by Kṛṣṇa. So you have to study deeply. Everything is . . . ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the source of everything." So the flower is also from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), from whom everything is emanating. The flower is also within the everything. How can I say it is false? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said we can't understand Brahman unless we understand Kṛṣṇa. Yes, that is real understanding. And without Kṛṣṇa, if you understand brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , then you fall down. But it seems, then, you have to come to the full understanding before it does any good. Yes. That means those who are simply trying to understand Brahman, they are not understanding. Then what does it mean, gradual process, gradual advancement in transcendental realization? Gradual process, just like you are here in the sunshine. So if you are intelligent, you'll understand that the temperature in the sunshine and the temperature in the sun globe is different. So Brahman understanding is the lowest stage. Paramātmā understanding little higher. And Bhagavān understanding is complete. That is gradual. And these Māyāvādīs, they do not try to understand Kṛṣṇa. They are satisfied only with understanding Brahman. Therefore they fall down. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta (SB 10.2.32). Because there is no standing. The impersonal feature, that the sky . . . go very high in the sky, you do not see anymore this planet earth, neither you see anything, you'll be mad. Then you will find out how to go back again. You cannot stay there in that condition. Although they say " so'ham ," no, you cannot stay there. Just imagine, if you go very high and you do not see any other thing, only sky, will you be able to stay in that condition? You go in the sea. When you do not find anything, all water, you become very much anxious, "Where is land? Where is land?" And as soon as you have a glimpse of land, island, you become very, "Oh, there is land." So this is impersonal understanding. It is simply imagination, that simply by Brahman understanding he'll be happy. No, that is not possible. Śrīla Prabhupāda, then even Brahman has to be understood in relationship to Kṛṣṇa? Hmm? Even Brahman has to be understood . . . Yes, that is real understanding. Brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham (BG 14.27). Hmm. Now wherefrom this fragrance have come? From the earth. Get out this fragrance from earth, you scientist. By Kṛṣṇa's manipulation here is fragrance. Everyone knows it has come from earth. If there is, in the earth, there is no such fragrance, wherefrom it came? So therefore it is there, it is understood, but you get it out. Well, we can take the chemicals and mix them, produce fragrance. Take the chemicals? Yes. We can analyze the chemical structure and make . . . *No, the flower has taken directly, without any chemical addition. You do that. It is a fact, the flavor is there within the earth. You take the flavor, extract the flavor. Not only this flavor, there are different flavors, all, everything there. There are so many flowers coming out. Huh? Sarva*-kāma dugha-mahī (SB 1.10.4). Mahī means earth. Everything's coming out from the earth. But not in your attempt. It is Kṛṣṇa's attempt that He can take out. Out of so many different flavors, everything is there within the earth, but Kṛṣṇa's manipulation takes the different colors, different flavors, different bodies, everything. That is Kṛṣṇa's manipulation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10). Just like in our kitchen we have got the ingredients, rice, ḍāl , āṭṭā , ghee . But the expert can prepare hundreds of preparations. That expert is Kṛṣṇa. And if one is not expert, even the ingredients are there, he'll spoil everything. He'll mix the āṭṭā with water then put ghee and then put rice. (laughter) This is the . . . we have to become expert. If you become expert, then you'll do very nice purī , ḍāl , rice . . . (indistinct) . . . there are so many varieties. You enjoy. And if you are not expert, you'll spoil. So Kṛṣṇa is expert and Kṛṣṇa bhakta is expert, because he takes lesson from Kṛṣṇa. So for them this is not mithyā . Rascals who spoil it, they think it is mithyā . He could not do anything. He mix with a conglomeration, and because he could not get any result, he said mithyā . Disappointment. And one who knows, he knows how to utilize it. Just like we are utilizing the cows in so many nice preparations, and these rascal killing them. Finished. And then they want to say that this is mithyā , that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is mithyā . Whatever they say, practically see. Yes. They do not know how to use the cow, only kill. You said that is the sour grape philosophy. Grape philosophy? What is that? Sour grapes. The fox . . . Ah. . . . wanted to taste the grapes, but he couldn't, so he said they are no good. *You do not know expert. So if we remain under the guidance of Kṛṣṇa, then we also become expert to some extent. And Kṛṣṇa's expertly service or intelligence we can see in the flower, so many flowers. So why shall I not take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66)? That is intelligence. That is intelligence. We see Kṛṣṇa's expertly manipulation. So if we take Kṛṣṇa's shelter, at least we shall get little intelligence. Dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam (BG 10.10): "He gets the intelligence directly from Me." And that is wanted. Why it is foolishly dealing with this rice, ḍāl , and make spoil everything? Be little expert from Kṛṣṇa's instructions and make everything nice. Kṛṣṇa personally teaches how to deal with cows. He never showed the example of killing the cows. He maintained the cows, the calf. He was distributing butter even to the monkeys. And the pasturing ground became muddy on account of milk dropping from the bags. This is Kṛṣṇa. And He is personally taking care. So why the Kṛṣṇa's devotees should not do it? Give protection to the cows and utilize the milk. That is one of the item of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not keeping hogs and dogs; we are keeping cows, because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa did not keep so many dogs, as nowadays so many big, big men, they are keeping dogs. Kṛṣṇa did not do so. If we follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then we are perfect. Practical example. We have not invent. If we simply follow what Kṛṣṇa has instructed us, then we become perfect. How can we perfectly follow only what Kṛṣṇa has said? The other evening you said that the patient, he is always a fool and a rascal. Answer him. But one should not remain a fool and a rascal. If the doctor has given the formula, you have to follow it. He says "Don't eat this but stay in bed, sleep so much," you have to do it, otherwise you will stay sick. You'll remain a rascal if you don't follow the instruction. So what do you want? You remain a rascal or make advance? What you want? Huh? To become advanced. Then follow. If you willfully remain a rascal, that is the difference. Otherwise, if you follow you'll become advanced. Everywhere you'll find Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. He says mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10). They explain, "Nature." But they cannot explain what is nature. We can explain. Nature is a system which is being handled by Kṛṣṇa. That is real understanding. Nature, we can see that from nature this flower is coming, this flower is coming. But why not . . .? They say accidentally. If it is accident, why in the plant of this flower sometimes rose is not coming accidentally? And why from the rose plant not accidentally this flower is coming? So where is the question of accident? You have never experienced such accident. The same plant, the same flower is coming. Where is a proof by accident another flower has come? Where is the proof? So why do they say like that, "accident"? Because they don't want to accept God. No, no, accept God or not, where the accident theory comes? Well if they don't give some explanation, then they'll be considered fools. *Some explanation, they have to give you something foolish explanation? So foolish man will accept that, not a sane man. If you say "by accident," then I'll say why not accident in the history of the world there is a rose plant some other flower has come out? If man has come from monkey, why not coming now? So they give so many foolish propositions, only fools will accept. Anyone who has a little reasoning power they will not . . . they'll understand that these are all crazy fellows, talking all nonsense. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ (SB 5.18.12). We have got little formula to understand that if one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious he has no good qualifications. He cannot say anything as a qualified person. That is the test. Mūḍha . Immediately take: a mūḍha . Let the mūḍhas speak all nonsense. Why should we waste our time? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As soon as we find somebody not Kṛṣṇa conscious, not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, we take, reject. He's a rascal, that's all. And he is rascal. Not only blindly we are rejecting, but with reason. (break) So one learned brāhmaṇa , he said, "All right sir, namaskār your Kṛṣṇa. I cannot believe all these things." And the cobbler, he began to cry: "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is so great, He can do anything." So he, Nārada Muni asked, he saw the learned brāhmaṇa refused to accept, and this cobbler is so absorbed that he's crying, "Ah, Kṛṣṇa can do anything." So he asked him, "Do you believe this?" "Yes, why not?" "So how do you believe it?" "Now I'm sitting under this banyan tree, and so many banyan fruits are falling down, and I can see there are hundreds and thousands of seeds within the fig, and each seed contains a banyan tree. So why can I not believe? If within this seed a big banyan tree can be kept, what is the difficulty for Kṛṣṇa to pull the elephant through the hole of a needle?" He has got reason. He is not blindly believing. How the scientist, who does not believe in God, he can explain that within the small seed there is a big banyan tree? Let them do that. By chemical composition make little seed. As I told, make little egg. They cannot do anything. Still they are so proud. *Dhrstadyumna: Yesterday we read, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that these are the qualities of the demon, that arrogance and pride, and their philosophy is there is no God in control. Kṛṣṇa said in Bhagavad*-gītā . *Śrīla Prabhupāda, in that story, the cobbler actually was more advanced than the brāhmaṇa , and yet in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that "Anyone can approach Me, even the strī śūdra dvija-bandhu ," they can all approach the supreme destination. Then in the next verse He says, "How much greater, then, are the brāhmaṇas , the righteous, the devotees, the saintly kings." I was wondering how are they greater? You do not understand it? I do not understand how they are greater than the lower person who surrenders. Suppose you have got your spiritual master and you, if somebody says that you can come into the . . . any one of you can come in this car. So spiritual master goes, you also go. Does it mean that spiritual master is not greater than you? Do you think like that? No. Then? It is the same thing. Suppose Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja has brought this car, so he says, "All of you can come." So I go, you go. Does it mean that you and your spiritual master is equal? Do you think like that? It is same thing. Everyone can go to Godhead, there is no doubt, but still there is difference between brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , śūdra . So far going into the car, the equal right is there, but it does not mean that your spiritual master or the next group, they are not greater than you. Don't think like that. The same car, so Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is driving, I am also there, you are also there. Does it mean that we are all equal? There must be gradation. The right is given to everyone. It does not mean that immediately they become all one. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He accepted everyone, "Come on." But the distinction is there. We are inviting everyone to partake Kṛṣṇa prasādam . That does not mean that immediately all of them have become of the equal rank. (pause) Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was so kind, but still there was distinction. When He was taking prasādam , personal associates, they were sitting with Him. Is it not? So this is called maryādā . Maryādā means "honor." That must . . . that varieties must be there. Otherwise we become Māyāvādīs—everything is equal, all one. This is Māyāvāda philosophy. No varieties. There must be variety. That is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And as soon as you make it varietyless, all equal, that is Māyāvāda . Just see even in this flower. This is also flower and this is also flower. Does it mean they are of the same rank? This is understanding. Together they look very beautiful, but if you take separate value, then it is valuable than this flower. That distinction must be there. If somebody says, "I am accepting even the leaf in this garland," then what to speak of rose? It is like that. Kṛṣṇa says that. That does not mean leaf and rose have the same value. One is making a beautiful garland: I am accepting everything. Mixed together it looks very nice, but individually the leaf has value, the rose has value, the flower has value. Not that because they are put together they have equal value. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. In a democracy they say everyone is . . . Nonsense democracy. What is . . .? Don't talk of this nonsense talk. (laughter) Democracy, communism, still there are varieties. But you make a president. Let everyone become president. That's what they've done, now the śūdras . . . (indistinct) *They have not done. Has everyone got the president's power? How do they say that you have done? Everyone equal? That is not possible. These are imagination. Mano*-rathenasato dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). Everything is there in the Bhāgavatam . Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ (SB 5.18.12). These rascals who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they have no value. They are simply speculating within the mind, mano-rathena, and they'll act all abominable, because they are on the mental platform. I'll say, "I think like this," you'll say, "I think like this." And nobody, none of us perfect. Then what is the use of your thinking like this or thinking like that? Both of them are imperfect. So if so many rascals sit together, or dogs, they simply bark, that's all. It has no value. So our propaganda is that "Don't remain in the dog platform. Come to the human platform." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There you will get, "If we all dogs meet together and pass a resolution, then it will be organized." That is democracy. Democracy means like that. The dog is kept as dog, and they are assembled together to take their votes. What is the value of their vote? They are dogs. I've publicly said this. Where? Melbourne. Melbourne. The United Nation is an assembly of barking dogs, I've said that, (laughs) and they published it. "His Divine Grace has come to hound us." *There is a so*-called spiritual master, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who is giving meditation courses to them. That is another cheating. In meditation,whatever nonsense they are doing, you don't know, nobody knows. That's all. Bhava satrugna . "If you become dumb, you have no enemy." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate . "A rascal is beautiful so long he does not speak." So better meditation; don't speak. Nobody will detect you. This is going on. If you speak, then you'll be detected what you are. And if you sleep by posing meditation, then nobody will ask, "What you are doing, nonsense?" This is meditation. Meditation is another cheating. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja has detected. Hmm? Find out this verse, Seventh Canto. This Śrī Chinmoy is supposed to be this resident guru at the United Nations . . . Whatever he may be, but we have got our own formula to understand. *He did a practical demonstration of what he said a person who is in touch with God can be capable of doing if he allows himself to become an instrument of God. So for eight months he painted continually, and he produced 27,000 paintings, and he said that this was proof that he was God*-realized. Mauna . The word begins with mauna . *Maunam , like in "silence." Mauna*-vrata-śruta-tapo-adhyayana ? *"O Supreme Personality of Godhead, there are ten prescribed methods on the path to liberation—to remain silent, not to speak to anyone, to observe vows, to amass all kinds of Vedic knowledge, to undergo austerities, to study the Vedas and other Vedic literatures, to execute the duties of varṇāśrama*-dharma , to explain the śāstras , to stay in a solitary place, to chant mantras silently and to be absorbed in trance. These different methods for liberation are generally only a professional practice and means of livelihood . . ." Means of livelihood. ". . . means of livelihood for those who have not conquered their senses. Because such persons are falsely proud, these procedures may not be successful." You can get some prestigious position from another rascal, but that will not solve the problem. What is the purport there? *Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: "As stated in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam (SB 6.1.15): *"Only a rare person who has adopted complete, unalloyed devotional service to Kṛṣṇa can uproot the weeds of sinful actions with no possibility that they will revive. He can do this simply by discharging devotional service, just as the sun can immediately dissipate fog by its rays." The real purpose of human life is to attain liberation from material entanglement. Such liberation may be achieved by many methods - tapasa brahmacāryeṇa śamena ca damena ca (SB 6.1.13) - but all of them more or less depend on tapasya , austerity, which begins with celibacy. Śukadeva Gosvāmī says that those who are vāsudeva*-parāyaṇa , who have fully surrendered to the lotus feet of Lord Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, automatically achieve the results of mauna (silence), vrata (vows), and other such methods, simply by discharging devotional service." *Take, for example, mauna . Mauna means don't talk rubbish. It is better not to talk than to talk foolish. So mauna is meant for them who cannot talk about Kṛṣṇa. Better stop talking. Mauna*-vrata . Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa, he'll talk all nonsense. So sometimes the spiritual master says that "You remain silent for twelve years." So (laughter) instead of talking nonsense, you remain silent for twelve years. That is mauna . Because as soon as you'll talk, you'll be captured where you are. Better not to talk. This is mauna-vrata . But one who is devotee, why he'll not . . .? He'll talk about Kṛṣṇa. Vācāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane (SB 9.4.18). Always talking about Kṛṣṇa. Why he should be silent? If he remains silent, then people will not get the benefit. Let him speak always of Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that. Y āre dekha , tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): whomever you meet, you simply talk about Kṛṣṇa, what He has taught in the Bhagavad-gītā , you become guru. So why guru will stop? Guru will speak. But what kind of speaking? What Kṛṣṇa has spoken. Not nonsense. Not like that: "I have painted so many pictures, therefore I have become God-realized." Where Bhagavān says "By painting pictures one may . . ." He does not say. Kṛṣṇa does not say. He has invented this. So therefore our test is, whether he's a bona fide guru , whether he's talking what Kṛṣṇa has said. Then he's guru . Otherwise a rascal. That's all, finished. Why should we bother? This is the test. If he's speaking, repeating the same thing, what Kṛṣṇa said, then he's guru . If he's talking something else, then he's rascal. Immediately take it. If you know this art, how to detect the rascal and guru , the test is already there. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So guru will say, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." He'll never say that "I have become Kṛṣṇa. You simply surrender to me." To surrender to Kṛṣṇa means surrender to guru also. You'll learn it. So "Kṛṣṇa is now dead; now I have become Kṛṣṇa," this is rascal, immediately. *So to test a guru and a rascal, there is no difficulty if you are well conversant with the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . There is no question. Kṛṣṇa says, ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). This confidential knowledge, what is that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66), one who is teaching this confidential knowledge—"Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa"—Kṛṣṇa says, "Ah, he is My dearmost friend." So you become dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa. Simply say what Kṛṣṇa says. Why do you speak all other nonsense things? You immediately become the dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa. And if you manufacture, then you are a rascal. Why shall I accept a rascal? We shall accept the dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa as guru . That is wanted. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, when He was asked by a gṛhastha devotee what should be the behavior of a Vaiṣṇava, He immediately said, asat-saṅga tyāga, ei vaiṣṇava ācāra (CC Madhya 22.87): "Give up the company of all rascals, asat ." Asat means those who are rascals. That is Vaiṣṇava. Do not mix with all rascals, asat . Now how shall I know who is rascal and who is not a . . .? Asat eka 'strī-saṅgī kṛṣṇa-bhakta āra . One who is too much attached with woman, he is rascal. Another rascal: who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. *So we have got everything test tube. Put the test tube and you understand. If one is strī*-saṅgī . . . strī-saṅgī means not only the man. The man or woman, one who are very much sexually attached, he is a rascal. One should give up his company. And another rascal: who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. So if you want to be a Vaiṣṇava, you must give up the company of these two rascals. Then your progress is guaranteed. Everything is there. There is no difficulty to distinguish between rascals and intelligent, guru and bluffer. Everything is there. And to become a perfect Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, asat-saṅga tyāga ei vaiṣṇava : don't talk even with these rascals. But sometimes in the preaching work we have to talk with such rascals, but not to take their theory but to teach them our theory. If you become defeated by their theory, then you are not a preacher. Don't preach; *chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You are not fit for teaching. If you become overcome by their teaching, then you are finished. A preacher is madhyama*-adhikārī , advanced devotee. He can preach. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī should be engaged in temple worship very nicely, then gradually he'll come to the madhyama-adhikārī . *So the preacher is madhyama*-adhikārī . A kaniṣṭha-adhikārī cannot become preacher. Who is in the lowest stage of devotional service, he cannot become preacher. He'll be conquered by the asat . And madhyama-adhikārī , he knows how to deal with asat . At least he does not mix with them. That's all. If he cannot defeat them, he should avoid them, because that valuable time can be utilized for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness to a person who is inquisitive to hear. Bāliśya . Bāliśya means innocent. He wants to know something about Kṛṣṇa. Better deal with him than with the rascals and waste time. Better avoid the rascals. Just like in hospital, emergency cases, the doctors, when they see that this patient hopeless, he does not take care anymore. But when there is hope, they give medicine and try to . . . the hopeless condition, better not. Don't talk with them. That's all. That is vaiṣṇava-ācāra . Then he'll remain safe. Hopeless person, don't waste your time talking with them. Īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca . Four observations. Bhagavān—īśvara; prema —love; *and prema*-maitrī , friendship with devotees; and kṛpa , mercy to the innocent person; *and upekṣā , no more talking. Don't waste time talking with all these nonsense. Better utilize, properly utilize the time by instructing a person who is innocent and eager to hear. Like that. So this mauna*-vrata-tapas-śruti . . . *These things are meant for ajitendriyānām , who could not control the senses. Ajitendriyānām . And who has engaged his senses in the service of the Lord, they are not ajitendriya . If you have engaged your mind in Kṛṣṇa—the mind is the king of senses—then your senses cannot be misled. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha (SB 9.4.18). Then if your mind is always in Kṛṣṇa, man-mana bhava mad bhakto , then what you'll speak except Kṛṣṇa? If you speak nonsense, that means your mind is not engaged in Kṛṣṇa. The mind is the center of all sensual activities. So if your mind is always in Kṛṣṇa, how we can talk nonsense? Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane . He'll be always engaged in talking about Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. So if we keep our mind always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there is no question of mauna , because we'll have to talk about Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I remain mauna ? If we talk about Kṛṣṇa, or what Kṛṣṇa has said, then I am benefited, and the audience, he is also benefited. Take Bhagavad-gītā and talk. So those who are Kṛṣṇa devotees, they will gladly hear. Those who are inquisitive, innocent, they'll also hear. And the dviṣāt , those who are envious, they'll go away. That's good, clear. Talk about Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. Don't talk anything else. Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can we give up our enviousness and reluctance to serve the spiritual master and the other devotees? Answer him. Dhrstadyumna: One can free himself from envy by serving. You serve the devotees and follow the instruction of the spiritual master. In this way the mind becomes your best friend. *A devotee is never envious of another devotee. He is not a devotee. Tad*-adhīneṣu maitrī (SB 11.2.46). One who is devotee, we have to make friendship with them. How we can hate them? Hm. Jaya , all glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya , haribol . (offer obeisances) ( kirtan ) (end) Conversation -- June 27, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA (Garden Conversation) So, any question from the newcomers? This gentleman, he owns this house, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yes, I know him. He mentions that he met you way back in 1966, in Tompkins Square Park. Yes. (pause) (break) If you go somewhere, you must know first of all why you have gone there. That is the first question. If you go to a store, the first business is that you have gone to purchase some particular thing from the store. That is understood. Similarly, why one should go to a spiritual master? What is the purpose? Answer, any one of you. One is . . . when one is confused and frustrated by this material existence, he wants to find an answer to his problems. So there are different authorities in the world offering solutions, but one has to find the actual authority. That is the purport. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsu śreya uttamam ( SB 11.3.21). One has to go to guru when one is inquisitive. Jijñāsu . Jijñāsu means we want to know so many things; that is our nature. Child also wants to know. He asks his parents, "What is this, father? What is this, mother?" That inquisitiveness is there in everyone. So when one wants to know about the Supreme, then he requires a guru , or spiritual master. It is not a fashion, that "Everyone keeps a guru; *let me also have a guru ." Not like that. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12): "In order to understand the transcendental science, one has to go to guru ." Jijñāsu śreya uttamam . After artha . . . just like generally, naturally, one goes to temple, church, four classes of men. One is needy: "O God, give us our daily bread." One thinks . . . actually, that is the fact. God gives us bread. So traditionally we are trained up. So we go to God, "Give us our daily bread." Similarly, one who wants to know what is God. Just like in our society, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they see that these boys, young boys, they have given up everything, they are after Kṛṣṇa. What is this Kṛṣṇa? That is intelligent. Why they are after this Kṛṣṇa? Then he has to go to a person, guru . In this way, there are many circumstances. But the real purpose is to know the Supreme. One who is inquisitive or anxious to know about the Supreme, then there is necessity of guru . Otherwise, what is the use of it? One who is not inquisitive to understand the Supreme, he has no business for a guru . *But everyone has necessity to understand the Supreme. That is human life. A dog cannot inquire what is God, because he is dog. But a man can do that. He has got that developed intelligence. So if a man does not inquire about the Supreme Truth, he is no better than a dog. If one does not seek after spiritual master, he's a dog. He's in the standard of dog. Because that inquiry is the particular business of human being, to inquire about the Supreme. If he does not inquire, that still he's on the platform of dog. First of all, you have understood it or not? So any human being with developed intelligence must go to a spiritual master. If he does not go, then he's still in the animal platform. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means he must. If he does not, then he is in the animal platform. Śrīla Prabhupāda? So if one is looking for a guru , but there are many people they are proclaiming themselves guru , and they are speaking "Supreme," "God," how may one tell the actual guru ? That is, if you want to purchase something, you must know where to purchase. Otherwise, you may be cheated. You, generally, you ask your friend that "I want to purchase some diamond, so can you give me some reliable address where I can go and purchase?" Generally, people do that. So you have to do that. If you want to purchase, you must know the preliminary understanding where diamond can be purchased. And if you are not aware of it, you may be cheated. That preliminary knowledge you must have. That means best thing is, those who are dealing with diamonds, you go there. Just like if anyone is inquisitive to understand God, so best thing is those who are dealing with God only, they have no other business. Then you go there. That is the intelligent. Why should you go to a cheater? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is especially distributing knowledge about God. So why do they not come here and inquire? First thing is, unless one is inquisitive to understand God, or Absolute Truth, he has no necessity of guru . But if he is actually serious, then he must go to a person where the dealing is only God. That's all. Just like ordinarily, if anyone wants to purchase some share of company, he goes to the share market and he sees the price of different shares, and he selects. So everything requires little intelligence, then it is all right. Otherwise, you may be cheated. Whatever business you do, you must do it intelligently. But if you are foolishly doing something, you may be cheated. Why we are opening so many centers all over the world? We are giving opportunity, people, to come and understand about God. Why do they not come here? Then he can make his judgment that "Here is the genuine party." And if one accepts some cheap God, that means he has no understanding about God. He's a rascal. If I say I'm God and somebody accepts me as God, then he's a foolish man. They do not know what is meaning of God. If one wants God, he must know at least what is meant by God. Every scripture, just like in Bible it is said, "God has created this universe." So if you come to me and accept me as God, why don't you test whether I have created another universe like this? Why you accept a cheap God who hasn't done anything? Simply he's bluff, and he says that "I am God." So why do you accept as God? Hmm? I was going to get you a fan, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for the flies. That would be nice. There's no fan here. Why should we accept a cheap God? Everything requires intelligence. If you are not intelligent, then every transaction you may be cheated. Everyone has heard "God is great." So great means there should be nobody equal to Him and nobody greater than Him. That is greatness. So test that man whether he has no competitor, another God. Nowadays there are so many Gods. So God is great, why there is another competitor? This is intelligence. Prabhupāda? Can one make progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . No, no. First of all, whatever we are talking you should understand, then bring another question. Don't puzzle. One question decide. Don't make it whimsical dictionary. Then it is not good. First of all decide one question clearly. So the bona fide guru does not claim to be God, but he gives knowledge of God, and he only deals with God. Yes, that is bona fide guru . A very common occurrence in the Western countries, they say that anyone can be guru . In fact, one Westerner who went to India and came back—he's very popular in the United States today—he says that everyone is guru and everyone is God. And people accept that? Yes. People are accepting. Now you discuss this point. Discuss this point. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Bhagavad*-gītā . . . No, first of all, you discuss this point, everyone is God and everyone is guru . Only if one hears from the right authority can one be guru. Has to be . . . spiritual knowledge is descending. The premise of the *Vedas* is that there's a creator of everything. Hmm? *There's a creator of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Origin of everything. The premise of these so*-called spiritual masters . . . No, this is a common sense. If everyone is God, then what is the necessity of finding out a guru ? Guru means who explains about God. Everyone is God, then what is the use of explanation? There is no need of guru . How can God be controlled by His own energy, illusory energy? So many things. Foolish men can accept that "Everyone is God, everyone is guru ." That is foolish man's proposition and accepted by fools. It is explained in Back to Godhead magazine that a person who teaches how to serve Kṛṣṇa, how to serve God, is guru . Someone tells you that he is guru . . . (indistinct) . . . a dog. Back to Godhead magazine explains. So to accept a spiritual master must mean that one is in ignorance and one is enlightened. For ignorance there is no need of guru . An ignorance cannot inquire about God. Intelligent man can inquire about God. We have to pick up our children . . . (indistinct) . . . thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Pick up children from a school? From somewhere. Do you know him? They're from Wheeling. Once you said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, "If you are God, what will you do when I kick on your face?" Because if God is creating the sun, such a great planet in the sky, thousands of tons of energy, so if they are the source of the sun, but "What can they do if I kick in their face? Nothing. So how is that God?" Kṛṣṇa, when . . . someone was . . . Paundraka, he was saying he was God. He said, "All right, hold My cakra." And He took off his head. So to these false Gods we can say, "What will you do if we kick you in the face? You cannot save yourself." That is the proper treatment. (laughter) *Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is one common philosophy also held by a lot of religious groups that God can be understood directly from within, and that no guru or spiritual master is necessary. That if I desire to approach God, and if He's all*-powerful, He can instruct me from within. They feel like this. Therefore they dispute our claim that we understand God in a different way, that you need a genuine spiritual master. And yet when we approach them, one man will say he has God within his heart and he understands God in this way, and another man is receiving instruction from God from within the heart, and yet he's saying another thing. So? Yet they continue to claim like that, so . . . Yes, when God teaches Arjuna . . . his realization from within should be the same as Kṛṣṇa is teaching to Arjuna. It should be confirmed by śāstra. He was saying that these people say, "God is instructing me from within," but they all have different philosophies. But he's a rascal, and who accepts him, he's a rascal. How do you think that God is speaking to him? How do you accept it? How do you accept that God is speaking to him? Well, I don't accept it. But you are advocating. Why do you accept this? He would say that he has turned his . . . He would say, but you must know that he's talking foolish. How God can talk with him? What is the condition? Therefore you have to read books. Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). *No. God talks with whom? That is said. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānaṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10). Those who have already become devotee of God and engaged in His service, He talks with him. Not he's a third-class fool. He doesn't talk with him. It is clearly stated, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām , one who is twenty-four-hours engaged in the service of the Lord, with love and faith, God talks with him. That is clearly stated. How do you understand that God is talking with him, a rascal fool, who has no business with God? God talks with devotee, very sincere devotee who is already engaged in God's service. He talks with him. But then he might say, "But I love God." *He might say, that is another thing. The standard is this. He may say—he's a rascal, he can say so many nonsense things. That is not the standard. He says that "God is talking with me." So I have to see whether he's a candidate with whom God can talk. The formula is teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10): "One who is twenty-four-hours engaged in My service with love and faith," God talks with him. So first of all see whether he's twenty-four-hours engaged in God's service with love and faith. Then you can understand, "Yes, God is talking with him." But he has no preliminary qualification, if he says, "I can talk with God," he's a nonsense. That means because you are a nonsense, you are talking about him that God talks with him. You do not know with whom God talks. So you are nonsense also. You accept him, "Yes, he may be talking with God." How he can talk? That means you are also nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks. Why do you accept such proposition? If some storekeeper says that "I have passed M.A., L.L.D.," and I have to accept that? You must know with whom God talks. That means you are nonsense. You are accepting nonsensically. And a person who is constantly engaged in God's service, unless he's trained up by a spiritual master, how can he be engaged? So without spiritual master, one cannot be engaged in devotional service; and without devotional service, nobody's eligible to talk with God. So that nonsense talking, that without spiritual master God talking, and he has become perfect, this is all nonsense. One who believes, he is also nonsense. He does not know God. To raise such question means nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks; therefore you have brought this question. Otherwise, you would have kicked immediately. It is impossible. What do you think? I understand what you are saying. Then why do you raise this question? It's a matter of argument also. Argument? Why do you bring such nonsense argument, waste time? Don't waste time. You are ignorant, you are accepting. Don't remain ignorant. It is common sense. Is it so easy that one can talk with God? If some common man says, "Just now I went to Mr. Ford and talked with him. I'm coming back from him," so any gentleman will believe that? So these are our insufficiency, that we believe such thing. We are not properly trained up. Simply waste time. That's not good. He may talk nonsense; why I shall accept nonsense? The same example: If somebody comes, "Now I'm just coming from talking with Mr. Ford, the President," shall I have to believe? If he's a common man, how he can talk with President Ford? If I believe, then I am also nonsense. Where is that? We don't have a fan in here . . . I have go somewhere else. I have to bring a fan from somewhere else. *No, no, bring, you can bring some soft cloth. Why this is? You bring some soft cloth. So don't indulge such nonsense question. You must personally understand. That is knowledge. If you are reading Bhagavad*-gītā , how you can accept nonsense, he says that "I can talk with Kṛṣṇa without spiritual master"? It is absurd proposition. So why you should accept such absurd proposition unless you are also another absurd? If you knew that it is not possible, you, "You rascal." Don't talk with him. Don't waste time. But you also do not know with whom God talks. Clearly stated. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ (BG 10.10). Teṣām evānukampārtham (BG 10.11). Why don't you read all these proposals? With whom God talks? Hmm? Why did you not? I'm familiar with those verses. *Then why did you not say that "God talks with such*-and-such person, but you are not such and such. Why you are talking nonsense? That means you are cheating. But you cannot cheat me. I know." So you must know. You must know with whom God talks. Śrīla Prabhupāda, does this mean that we should not speak with those who ask such questions? But you must know how to answer it! Otherwise, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why there are so many books? You do not read it; you do not know how to answer it even. That means you do not read. If you knew that God does not speak with rascals or anyone ordinary, then you would have immediately replied, "God does not speak to you. It is not possible. It requires qualification." Why should you believe it and waste your time? Śrīla Prabhupāda, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu prays that one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige. How do we lose that desire for false prestige? Answer him. *Desire for false prestige? First of all, ceto*-darpana-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). The heart is full of so many dirty things, and basically all of these revolve around the bodily concept of life—I think I'm this body. Therefore we're desiring honor, we don't like to be dishonored; and looking for so many gains, we don't like to lose something. So there are so many dualities that exist: respect and disrespect, honor and dishonor. So when you become purified, freed from the bodily concept of life by chanting, then naturally honor and dishonor, they are not very important; they are only in relationship to the body. (aside) Come nearer. Yes. Now argue, whether you are satisfied with his answer. If not, say it. In this way, discuss. Are you satisfied with his answer? Yes, Prabhupāda. That's all right. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, it says that the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta is the postgraduate study for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Hmm, hear him. What does he say? *Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the postgraduate study . . . *Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , postgraduate study. *So if we're very attracted to reading Caitanya*-caritāmṛta now, but we haven't finished Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , is that good? Or should we wait until we have studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam thoroughly? *It does not mean that one who is not postgraduate, he cannot read other books. Spiritual life is not a stereotype like that. But one who is not postgraduate, it is little difficult for him to understand the statement of . . . just like in the beginning of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said, na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāj jagati para-tattvaṁ param iha (CC Adi 1.3), that there is no superior truth than Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So if you have not studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , you'll not understand this statement. If you understand, "Yes, Caitanya is the Supreme Truth," then it is to be understood that you have graduated. And if you are not, then it will be difficult for you to understand. *Then the more we understand Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , the more we'll understand the Caitanya-caritāmṛta . *Yes, and if you understood Bhāgavatam thoroughly, then you can understand Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . But if you have not understood Bhāgavatam , then you cannot understand Caitanya-caritāmṛta . The simple statement, na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāt para-tattvaṁ param iha . Where is Caitanya-caritāmṛta ? Bring. Which volume, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *First volume. That means you are not reading, you simply are referring. This is the difficulty. Without thoroughly reading something, we bring so many questions. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore forbidden, bahu śāstra nā pore . Don't bother yourself reading so many books at a time. You'll be puzzled. Find out this verse, yad advaitaṁ brahmopaniṣadi tad apy asya tanu*-bhā . I don't believe there's an index in this first volume. In the first chapter you'll find. In the first seventeen verses, "What is described in the *Upaniṣads* . . ." Yad advaita . . . *Yad advaitaṁ brahma*-upaniṣadi . Go, find out. "What the *Upaniṣads* describe as the impersonal Brahman is but the effulgence of His body, and the Lord known as the Supersoul is but His localized plenary portion. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa Himself, full with six opulences. He is the Absolute Truth, and no other truth is greater than or equal to Him." *This is the beginning of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . So will anyone be able to understand this verse? Hmm? Everything is stated there, what is Caitanya. Will everyone be able to understand it? That is the proof that he's not graduate. If he is graduate, then he should understand. Therefore it is postgraduate. *One must understand Bhagavad*-gītā before Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam ? *Yes. It is stated there, yad advaitaṁ brahma upaniṣadi . That means he must understand the Upaniṣads . He must understand what is Brahman. So without understanding this, how he can understand Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ? It will be explained there, but the fact is this. What is that? Is there any explanation? No, no purport to this verse. So further on there is explanation. Find out that. *Śrīla Prabhupāda? How does one know when he has the understanding of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? What does he say? Answer him. What did you say? *How does one know when he has the understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā ? *One has understood Bhagavad*-gītā who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, because Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), that "The essence of all knowledge is to surrender unto Me, to give up all other duties." So one who takes that instruction as life and soul, he has understood Bhagavad-gītā . Is that all right? The same verse again in the Second Chapter. (break) "The *Upaniṣads* , which are considered the most elevated portion of the Vedic literatures, are meant for persons who desire to get free from material association and who therefore approach a bona fide spiritual master for enlightenment. The prefix upa indicates that one must receive knowledge about the Absolute Truth from a spiritual master. One who has faith in his spiritual master actually receives transcendental instruction, and as his attachment for material life slackens, he is able to advance on the spiritual path. Knowledge of the transcendental science of the *Upaniṣads* . . ." Where is that boy? You are hearing? Yes, Prabhupāda. "Knowledge of the transcendental science of the *Upaniṣads* can free one from the entanglement of existence in the material world, and when thus liberated, one can be elevated to the spiritual kingdom of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by advancement in spiritual life. *"The beginning of spiritual enlightenment is realization of impersonal Brahman. Such realization is effected by gradual negation of material variegatedness. Impersonal Brahman realization is the partial, distant experience of the Absolute Truth that one achieves through the rational approach. It is compared to one's seeing a hill from a distance and taking it to be a smoky cloud. A hill is not a smoky cloud, but it appears to be one from a distance because of our imperfect vision. In imperfect or smoky realization of the Absolute Truth, spiritual variegatedness is conspicuous by its absence. This experience is therefore called advaita*-vāda , or realization of the oneness of the Absolute. *"The impersonal glowing effulgence of Brahman consists only of the personal bodily rays of the Supreme Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Since Śrī Gaurasundara, or Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, is identical with Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself, the Brahman effulgence consists of the rays of His transcendental body. Similarly, the Supersoul, which is called the Paramātmā, is a plenary representation of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The antaryāmi , the Supersoul in everyone's heart, is the controller of all living entities. This is confirmed in Bhagavad*-gītā , wherein Lord Kṛṣṇa says, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ : "I am situated in everyone's heart." (BG 15.15) Bhagavad-gītā also states, Fifth Chapter, twenty-ninth verse, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29), indicating that the Supreme Lord, acting in His expansion as the Supersoul, is the proprietor of everything. Similarly, the Brahma-saṁhitā states, aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35): the Lord is present everywhere, within the heart of every living entity and within each and every atom as well. Thus by this Supersoul feature the Lord is all-pervading. "Furthermore, Lord Caitanya is also the master of all wealth, strength, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation because He is Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself. He is described as pūrṇa , or complete. In the feature of Lord Caitanya, the Lord is an ideal renouncer, just as Śrī Rāma was an ideal king. He accepted the order of sannyāsa and exemplified exceedingly wonderful principles in His own life. No one can compare to Him in the order of sannyāsa ." (aside) Not like that. *"Although in Kali*-yuga acceptance of the sannyāsa order is generally forbidden, Lord Caitanya accepted it . . ." (aside) On the head. *". . . because He is complete in renunciation. Others cannot imitate Him but can only follow in His footsteps as far as possible. Those who are unfit for this order of life are strictly forbidden by the injunctions of the śāstras to accept it. Lord Caitanya, however, is complete in renunciation as well as all other opulences. He is therefore the highest principle of the Absolute Truth. By an analytical study of the truth of Lord Caitanya, one will find that He is not different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. No one is greater than or even equal to Him. In Bhagavad*-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): 'O conqueror of wealth (Arjuna), there is no truth superior to Me.' Thus it is here confirmed that there is no truth higher than Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. *"The impersonal Brahman is the goal of those who cultivate the study of books of transcendental knowledge, and the Supersoul is the goal of those who perform the yoga practices. One who knows the Supreme Personality of Godhead surpasses realization of both Brahman and Paramātmā, because Bhagavān is the ultimate platform of absolute knowledge. The Personality of Godhead is the complete form of sac*-cidananda (full life, knowledge and bliss). By realization of the sat portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited existence), one realizes the impersonal Brahman of the Lord. By realization of the cit portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited knowledge), one can realize the localized aspect of the Lord, Paramātmā. But neither of these partial realizations of the Complete Whole can help one realize ānanda , or complete bliss. Without such realization of ānanda , knowledge of the Absolute Truth is incomplete. *"This verse of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta by Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī is confirmed by a parallel statement in the Tattva-sandarbha by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī. In the Eighth Part of Tattva-sandarbha it is said that the Absolute Truth is sometimes approached as impersonal Brahman, which, although spiritual, is only a partial representation of the Absolute Truth. Nārāyaṇa, the predominating Deity in Vaikuṇṭha, is to be known as an expansion of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, but Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Absolute Truth, the object of the transcendental love of all living entities." So is it clear? (laughs) It is not so easy. (laughter) Therefore it is postgraduate. Can these things be understood theoretically, Śrīla Prabhupāda, or is realization required? Realization required. What is the use of theoretical knowledge? Śrīla Prabhupāda, can realization be had through service without theoretical understanding? *This whole science is understood through service only. Everything becomes revealed. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). Revelation. Everything is revelation. Unless one is very sincere servant, there is no revelation. Śrīla Prabhupāda, it described a gradual process of realizing Kṛṣṇa, but does the devotee go through these levels of understanding Brahman then Paramātmā then Bhagavān? Hmm? (microphone moving) It was described how the levels of understanding the Absolute—Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Does the devotee gradually go through these levels, or does he immediately realize Brahman when his service is perfect? That depends on his capacity. (aside) Just on the head do it. Mahārāja Kīrtanānanda said that our actual realization comes through our actions. So we are, in building this New Vrindavan, we are actually . . . this is taken to be our preaching, or our life and soul. What is your question? My question is how do we . . . Prabhupāda, his question is will one become realized by continually engaging in devotional service under the direction of a bona fide representative of the spiritual master? The question is that his service is here in New Vrindavan under Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Will serving the representative of the spiritual master . . . is that as good as serving the spiritual master? Will it get the same result? I don't think that was the question. No? At least, I understand the question to be: Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth? That is the Absolute Truth. Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth? Yes. Absolute means there is no difference. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's service, the same. So discuss it further. Is that to say that if one— brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11)—that if one simply goes on serving, engaging in all sorts of different activities for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, but he never, in this lifetime at least, has realization of Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān . . .? *What is the difficulty? Everything is explained. By seeing the sun one can understand the sunshine, the sun globe and the sun*-god. There are three things. Within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke to Vivasvata." So there is a person Vivasvata, and the globe is there, we see, and the sunshine is there. So what is the difficulty to understand? Hmm? Three things are there. The person within the sun globe, Vivasvata, is there; *otherwise how Kṛṣṇa could speak with him? He says, imaṁ vivasvate yogam : "Unto Vivasvata I spoke." So there is a person. And we can see the globe, and we can see the sunshine. Is there any difficulty? So similarly, the Brahman is the sunshine, light, and Paramātmā is the sun globe, and Bhagavān is the sun*-god. This is . . . the sun is one example. From this example we can understand the Absolute. Where is the difficulty? (aside) Sit down properly. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). As heat and light, all of them are the same . . . in the sunshine there is heat and light, in the sun globe there is heat and light, and within the sun globe there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. You can tolerate the heat and light of the sunshine, but if you go to the sun globe you'll be finished. Temperature's so high, it requires a special qualification. Similarly, from heat and light point of view, Brahman, Paramātmā, Bhagavān, the same. Everywhere there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. So one who understands Brahman, he cannot understand Paramātmā. He understands, but not as thoroughly. Similarly, one who understands Paramātmā, he can understand Bhagavān. But if you understand Bhagavān, then you understand Paramātmā, Brahman, everything. So we should simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa? Yes. No. Try to understand everything, but understanding Kṛṣṇa, you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam eva vijñātaṁ bhavanti (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). And because you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore you do not understand Brahman, you do not understand Paramātmā. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then it is automatically understood. We have not understood Brahman, Paramātmā, because we have not understood Kṛṣṇa properly. Kṛṣṇa says, aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "I am the source of everything." So Brahman is also from Kṛṣṇa, Paramātmā is also from Kṛṣṇa. And so other Bhagavāns—there are so many Bhagavāns also—they are from Kṛṣṇa. *So if you understand Kṛṣṇa you can understand everything. And as soon as you say that you have not understood it, therefore you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. They cannot understand. Just like Māyāvādīs, they do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore they do not understand Brahman also. And therefore they fall down, because they have not understood either Brahman or Kṛṣṇa. Patanty adhaḥ . This is stated in the śāstra . Anādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32), because they have not understood Kṛṣṇa, even they have gone up to the Brahman, they cannot stand there; they fall down. Again they come to the material world. The Māyāvādīs, they say, brahma satyma jagan mithyā : "Brahman is truth, and this material world is false." They take sannyāsa , but after some time they fall down, again take to other businesses than Brahman in the material world. Just like our Vivekananda. He came to the Western countries to preach Vedānta , and he has advertised that "Whole America has become Vedāntist ." The proof of Vedānta is when he returned to India he became very enthusiastic to open hospitals, like the Christian missionaries. So if the material world is false, so why he's trying to open hospital? Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . Jagat is mithyā . So why in the mithyā platform he's taking credit by opening hospital? Well, as long as people are suffering, they can't realize that they are God. So you cannot stop the suffering. You are unable. You are also suffering from the same disease. So don't say that jagat mithyā . If they are suffering, that's a fact. Then how do you say it is mithyā , it is false? If it is mithyā , then why you are affected by the suffering? There are so many questions. That means not realization. Contradictory. If you feel the suffering, then why you call it mithyā ? It is fact. Why do you say it is mithyā ? That means you have no realization. You are accepting suffering as mithyā . We say suffering is not mithyā; it is fact. But if you want to save from suffering, then you get out of this material world. We don't say that, that suffering is mithyā or this world is mithyā . We don't say that. We are offering this flower to Kṛṣṇa, not as mithyā; *it is a means of service. Why shall I say it is mithyā ? By offering . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26): by offering a little flower. How can I say this is mithyā ? Māyāvādīs' philosophy, it is mithyā . With mithyā we can approach the satya ? By hundreds of false we can make one truth? Kṛṣṇa says that "If you offer Me a little flower," so how can I say this is mithyā ? It is not mithyā . It is satya . When it is satya ? When it is offered to Kṛṣṇa. And when you take it for your sense gratification, that is mithyā . That is mithyā . You cannot enjoy it. If you enjoy it, then go to hell. If you offer it to Kṛṣṇa, you go to Him. So how can I say it is mithyā ? You cannot approach Kṛṣṇa with something mithyā . Then Kṛṣṇa becomes mithyā . There are so many things to be studied. We don't say like that. We find there is relationship of Kṛṣṇa with everything. When we find this beautiful rose, we find the intelligence of Kṛṣṇa. By Kṛṣṇa's intelligence it has come out so nice, fragrant, beautiful. They say it is made by nature. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). So under Kṛṣṇa's direction nature has made it so beautiful. That is a fact. Therefore I find there is hand of Kṛṣṇa in this flower. So Kṛṣṇa has made this; this is Kṛṣṇa's property; it should be offered to Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti. We are not offering something mithyā to Kṛṣṇa. It is fact. It is made by Kṛṣṇa. If you say, "No, no, I don't touch this flower," so what is credit there? You have not prepared it. You touch or not touch, it doesn't matter. If you say, "No, no, it is material. I don't touch it," you may not touch it, but you do not know it is not material, it is spiritual, it is made by Kṛṣṇa. So you have to study deeply. Everything is . . . ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the source of everything." So the flower is also from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), from whom everything is emanating. The flower is also within the everything. How can I say it is false? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said we can't understand Brahman unless we understand Kṛṣṇa. Yes, that is real understanding. And without Kṛṣṇa, if you understand brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , then you fall down. But it seems, then, you have to come to the full understanding before it does any good. Yes. That means those who are simply trying to understand Brahman, they are not understanding. Then what does it mean, gradual process, gradual advancement in transcendental realization? Gradual process, just like you are here in the sunshine. So if you are intelligent, you'll understand that the temperature in the sunshine and the temperature in the sun globe is different. So Brahman understanding is the lowest stage. Paramātmā understanding little higher. And Bhagavān understanding is complete. That is gradual. And these Māyāvādīs, they do not try to understand Kṛṣṇa. They are satisfied only with understanding Brahman. Therefore they fall down. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta (SB 10.2.32). Because there is no standing. The impersonal feature, that the sky . . . go very high in the sky, you do not see anymore this planet earth, neither you see anything, you'll be mad. Then you will find out how to go back again. You cannot stay there in that condition. Although they say " so'ham ," no, you cannot stay there. Just imagine, if you go very high and you do not see any other thing, only sky, will you be able to stay in that condition? You go in the sea. When you do not find anything, all water, you become very much anxious, "Where is land? Where is land?" And as soon as you have a glimpse of land, island, you become very, "Oh, there is land." So this is impersonal understanding. It is simply imagination, that simply by Brahman understanding he'll be happy. No, that is not possible. Śrīla Prabhupāda, then even Brahman has to be understood in relationship to Kṛṣṇa? Hmm? Even Brahman has to be understood . . . Yes, that is real understanding. Brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham (BG 14.27). Hmm. Now wherefrom this fragrance have come? From the earth. Get out this fragrance from earth, you scientist. By Kṛṣṇa's manipulation here is fragrance. Everyone knows it has come from earth. If there is, in the earth, there is no such fragrance, wherefrom it came? So therefore it is there, it is understood, but you get it out. Well, we can take the chemicals and mix them, produce fragrance. Take the chemicals? Yes. We can analyze the chemical structure and make . . . *No, the flower has taken directly, without any chemical addition. You do that. It is a fact, the flavor is there within the earth. You take the flavor, extract the flavor. Not only this flavor, there are different flavors, all, everything there. There are so many flowers coming out. Huh? Sarva*-kāma dugha-mahī (SB 1.10.4). Mahī means earth. Everything's coming out from the earth. But not in your attempt. It is Kṛṣṇa's attempt that He can take out. Out of so many different flavors, everything is there within the earth, but Kṛṣṇa's manipulation takes the different colors, different flavors, different bodies, everything. That is Kṛṣṇa's manipulation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10). Just like in our kitchen we have got the ingredients, rice, ḍāl , āṭṭā , ghee . But the expert can prepare hundreds of preparations. That expert is Kṛṣṇa. And if one is not expert, even the ingredients are there, he'll spoil everything. He'll mix the āṭṭā with water then put ghee and then put rice. (laughter) This is the . . . we have to become expert. If you become expert, then you'll do very nice purī , ḍāl , rice . . . (indistinct) . . . there are so many varieties. You enjoy. And if you are not expert, you'll spoil. So Kṛṣṇa is expert and Kṛṣṇa bhakta is expert, because he takes lesson from Kṛṣṇa. So for them this is not mithyā . Rascals who spoil it, they think it is mithyā . He could not do anything. He mix with a conglomeration, and because he could not get any result, he said mithyā . Disappointment. And one who knows, he knows how to utilize it. Just like we are utilizing the cows in so many nice preparations, and these rascal killing them. Finished. And then they want to say that this is mithyā , that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is mithyā . Whatever they say, practically see. Yes. They do not know how to use the cow, only kill. You said that is the sour grape philosophy. Grape philosophy? What is that? Sour grapes. The fox . . . Ah. . . . wanted to taste the grapes, but he couldn't, so he said they are no good. *You do not know expert. So if we remain under the guidance of Kṛṣṇa, then we also become expert to some extent. And Kṛṣṇa's expertly service or intelligence we can see in the flower, so many flowers. So why shall I not take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66)? That is intelligence. That is intelligence. We see Kṛṣṇa's expertly manipulation. So if we take Kṛṣṇa's shelter, at least we shall get little intelligence. Dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam (BG 10.10): "He gets the intelligence directly from Me." And that is wanted. Why it is foolishly dealing with this rice, ḍāl , and make spoil everything? Be little expert from Kṛṣṇa's instructions and make everything nice. Kṛṣṇa personally teaches how to deal with cows. He never showed the example of killing the cows. He maintained the cows, the calf. He was distributing butter even to the monkeys. And the pasturing ground became muddy on account of milk dropping from the bags. This is Kṛṣṇa. And He is personally taking care. So why the Kṛṣṇa's devotees should not do it? Give protection to the cows and utilize the milk. That is one of the item of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not keeping hogs and dogs; we are keeping cows, because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa did not keep so many dogs, as nowadays so many big, big men, they are keeping dogs. Kṛṣṇa did not do so. If we follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then we are perfect. Practical example. We have not invent. If we simply follow what Kṛṣṇa has instructed us, then we become perfect. How can we perfectly follow only what Kṛṣṇa has said? The other evening you said that the patient, he is always a fool and a rascal. Answer him. But one should not remain a fool and a rascal. If the doctor has given the formula, you have to follow it. He says "Don't eat this but stay in bed, sleep so much," you have to do it, otherwise you will stay sick. You'll remain a rascal if you don't follow the instruction. So what do you want? You remain a rascal or make advance? What you want? Huh? To become advanced. Then follow. If you willfully remain a rascal, that is the difference. Otherwise, if you follow you'll become advanced. Everywhere you'll find Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. He says mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10). They explain, "Nature." But they cannot explain what is nature. We can explain. Nature is a system which is being handled by Kṛṣṇa. That is real understanding. Nature, we can see that from nature this flower is coming, this flower is coming. But why not . . .? They say accidentally. If it is accident, why in the plant of this flower sometimes rose is not coming accidentally? And why from the rose plant not accidentally this flower is coming? So where is the question of accident? You have never experienced such accident. The same plant, the same flower is coming. Where is a proof by accident another flower has come? Where is the proof? So why do they say like that, "accident"? Because they don't want to accept God. No, no, accept God or not, where the accident theory comes? Well if they don't give some explanation, then they'll be considered fools. *Some explanation, they have to give you something foolish explanation? So foolish man will accept that, not a sane man. If you say "by accident," then I'll say why not accident in the history of the world there is a rose plant some other flower has come out? If man has come from monkey, why not coming now? So they give so many foolish propositions, only fools will accept. Anyone who has a little reasoning power they will not . . . they'll understand that these are all crazy fellows, talking all nonsense. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ (SB 5.18.12). We have got little formula to understand that if one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious he has no good qualifications. He cannot say anything as a qualified person. That is the test. Mūḍha . Immediately take: a mūḍha . Let the mūḍhas speak all nonsense. Why should we waste our time? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As soon as we find somebody not Kṛṣṇa conscious, not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, we take, reject. He's a rascal, that's all. And he is rascal. Not only blindly we are rejecting, but with reason. (break) So one learned brāhmaṇa , he said, "All right sir, namaskār your Kṛṣṇa. I cannot believe all these things." And the cobbler, he began to cry: "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is so great, He can do anything." So he, Nārada Muni asked, he saw the learned brāhmaṇa refused to accept, and this cobbler is so absorbed that he's crying, "Ah, Kṛṣṇa can do anything." So he asked him, "Do you believe this?" "Yes, why not?" "So how do you believe it?" "Now I'm sitting under this banyan tree, and so many banyan fruits are falling down, and I can see there are hundreds and thousands of seeds within the fig, and each seed contains a banyan tree. So why can I not believe? If within this seed a big banyan tree can be kept, what is the difficulty for Kṛṣṇa to pull the elephant through the hole of a needle?" He has got reason. He is not blindly believing. How the scientist, who does not believe in God, he can explain that within the small seed there is a big banyan tree? Let them do that. By chemical composition make little seed. As I told, make little egg. They cannot do anything. Still they are so proud. *Dhrstadyumna: Yesterday we read, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that these are the qualities of the demon, that arrogance and pride, and their philosophy is there is no God in control. Kṛṣṇa said in Bhagavad*-gītā . *Śrīla Prabhupāda, in that story, the cobbler actually was more advanced than the brāhmaṇa , and yet in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that "Anyone can approach Me, even the strī śūdra dvija-bandhu ," they can all approach the supreme destination. Then in the next verse He says, "How much greater, then, are the brāhmaṇas , the righteous, the devotees, the saintly kings." I was wondering how are they greater? You do not understand it? I do not understand how they are greater than the lower person who surrenders. Suppose you have got your spiritual master and you, if somebody says that you can come into the . . . any one of you can come in this car. So spiritual master goes, you also go. Does it mean that spiritual master is not greater than you? Do you think like that? No. Then? It is the same thing. Suppose Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja has brought this car, so he says, "All of you can come." So I go, you go. Does it mean that you and your spiritual master is equal? Do you think like that? It is same thing. Everyone can go to Godhead, there is no doubt, but still there is difference between brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , śūdra . So far going into the car, the equal right is there, but it does not mean that your spiritual master or the next group, they are not greater than you. Don't think like that. The same car, so Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is driving, I am also there, you are also there. Does it mean that we are all equal? There must be gradation. The right is given to everyone. It does not mean that immediately they become all one. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He accepted everyone, "Come on." But the distinction is there. We are inviting everyone to partake Kṛṣṇa prasādam . That does not mean that immediately all of them have become of the equal rank. (pause) Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was so kind, but still there was distinction. When He was taking prasādam , personal associates, they were sitting with Him. Is it not? So this is called maryādā . Maryādā means "honor." That must . . . that varieties must be there. Otherwise we become Māyāvādīs—everything is equal, all one. This is Māyāvāda philosophy. No varieties. There must be variety. That is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And as soon as you make it varietyless, all equal, that is Māyāvāda . Just see even in this flower. This is also flower and this is also flower. Does it mean they are of the same rank? This is understanding. Together they look very beautiful, but if you take separate value, then it is valuable than this flower. That distinction must be there. If somebody says, "I am accepting even the leaf in this garland," then what to speak of rose? It is like that. Kṛṣṇa says that. That does not mean leaf and rose have the same value. One is making a beautiful garland: I am accepting everything. Mixed together it looks very nice, but individually the leaf has value, the rose has value, the flower has value. Not that because they are put together they have equal value. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. In a democracy they say everyone is . . . Nonsense democracy. What is . . .? Don't talk of this nonsense talk. (laughter) Democracy, communism, still there are varieties. But you make a president. Let everyone become president. That's what they've done, now the śūdras . . . (indistinct) *They have not done. Has everyone got the president's power? How do they say that you have done? Everyone equal? That is not possible. These are imagination. Mano*-rathenasato dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). Everything is there in the Bhāgavatam . Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ (SB 5.18.12). These rascals who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they have no value. They are simply speculating within the mind, mano-rathena, and they'll act all abominable, because they are on the mental platform. I'll say, "I think like this," you'll say, "I think like this." And nobody, none of us perfect. Then what is the use of your thinking like this or thinking like that? Both of them are imperfect. So if so many rascals sit together, or dogs, they simply bark, that's all. It has no value. So our propaganda is that "Don't remain in the dog platform. Come to the human platform." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There you will get, "If we all dogs meet together and pass a resolution, then it will be organized." That is democracy. Democracy means like that. The dog is kept as dog, and they are assembled together to take their votes. What is the value of their vote? They are dogs. I've publicly said this. Where? Melbourne. Melbourne. The United Nation is an assembly of barking dogs, I've said that, (laughs) and they published it. "His Divine Grace has come to hound us." *There is a so*-called spiritual master, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who is giving meditation courses to them. That is another cheating. In meditation,whatever nonsense they are doing, you don't know, nobody knows. That's all. Bhava satrugna . "If you become dumb, you have no enemy." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate . "A rascal is beautiful so long he does not speak." So better meditation; don't speak. Nobody will detect you. This is going on. If you speak, then you'll be detected what you are. And if you sleep by posing meditation, then nobody will ask, "What you are doing, nonsense?" This is meditation. Meditation is another cheating. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja has detected. Hmm? Find out this verse, Seventh Canto. This Śrī Chinmoy is supposed to be this resident guru at the United Nations . . . Whatever he may be, but we have got our own formula to understand. *He did a practical demonstration of what he said a person who is in touch with God can be capable of doing if he allows himself to become an instrument of God. So for eight months he painted continually, and he produced 27,000 paintings, and he said that this was proof that he was God*-realized. Mauna . The word begins with mauna . *Maunam , like in "silence." Mauna*-vrata-śruta-tapo-adhyayana ? *"O Supreme Personality of Godhead, there are ten prescribed methods on the path to liberation—to remain silent, not to speak to anyone, to observe vows, to amass all kinds of Vedic knowledge, to undergo austerities, to study the Vedas and other Vedic literatures, to execute the duties of varṇāśrama*-dharma , to explain the śāstras , to stay in a solitary place, to chant mantras silently and to be absorbed in trance. These different methods for liberation are generally only a professional practice and means of livelihood . . ." Means of livelihood. ". . . means of livelihood for those who have not conquered their senses. Because such persons are falsely proud, these procedures may not be successful." You can get some prestigious position from another rascal, but that will not solve the problem. What is the purport there? *Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: "As stated in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam (SB 6.1.15): *"Only a rare person who has adopted complete, unalloyed devotional service to Kṛṣṇa can uproot the weeds of sinful actions with no possibility that they will revive. He can do this simply by discharging devotional service, just as the sun can immediately dissipate fog by its rays." The real purpose of human life is to attain liberation from material entanglement. Such liberation may be achieved by many methods - tapasa brahmacāryeṇa śamena ca damena ca (SB 6.1.13) - but all of them more or less depend on tapasya , austerity, which begins with celibacy. Śukadeva Gosvāmī says that those who are vāsudeva*-parāyaṇa , who have fully surrendered to the lotus feet of Lord Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, automatically achieve the results of mauna (silence), vrata (vows), and other such methods, simply by discharging devotional service." *Take, for example, mauna . Mauna means don't talk rubbish. It is better not to talk than to talk foolish. So mauna is meant for them who cannot talk about Kṛṣṇa. Better stop talking. Mauna*-vrata . Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa, he'll talk all nonsense. So sometimes the spiritual master says that "You remain silent for twelve years." So (laughter) instead of talking nonsense, you remain silent for twelve years. That is mauna . Because as soon as you'll talk, you'll be captured where you are. Better not to talk. This is mauna-vrata . But one who is devotee, why he'll not . . .? He'll talk about Kṛṣṇa. Vācāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane (SB 9.4.18). Always talking about Kṛṣṇa. Why he should be silent? If he remains silent, then people will not get the benefit. Let him speak always of Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that. Y āre dekha , tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): whomever you meet, you simply talk about Kṛṣṇa, what He has taught in the Bhagavad-gītā , you become guru. So why guru will stop? Guru will speak. But what kind of speaking? What Kṛṣṇa has spoken. Not nonsense. Not like that: "I have painted so many pictures, therefore I have become God-realized." Where Bhagavān says "By painting pictures one may . . ." He does not say. Kṛṣṇa does not say. He has invented this. So therefore our test is, whether he's a bona fide guru , whether he's talking what Kṛṣṇa has said. Then he's guru . Otherwise a rascal. That's all, finished. Why should we bother? This is the test. If he's speaking, repeating the same thing, what Kṛṣṇa said, then he's guru . If he's talking something else, then he's rascal. Immediately take it. If you know this art, how to detect the rascal and guru , the test is already there. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So guru will say, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." He'll never say that "I have become Kṛṣṇa. You simply surrender to me." To surrender to Kṛṣṇa means surrender to guru also. You'll learn it. So "Kṛṣṇa is now dead; now I have become Kṛṣṇa," this is rascal, immediately. *So to test a guru and a rascal, there is no difficulty if you are well conversant with the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . There is no question. Kṛṣṇa says, ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). This confidential knowledge, what is that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66), one who is teaching this confidential knowledge—"Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa"—Kṛṣṇa says, "Ah, he is My dearmost friend." So you become dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa. Simply say what Kṛṣṇa says. Why do you speak all other nonsense things? You immediately become the dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa. And if you manufacture, then you are a rascal. Why shall I accept a rascal? We shall accept the dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa as guru . That is wanted. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, when He was asked by a gṛhastha devotee what should be the behavior of a Vaiṣṇava, He immediately said, asat-saṅga tyāga, ei vaiṣṇava ācāra (CC Madhya 22.87): "Give up the company of all rascals, asat ." Asat means those who are rascals. That is Vaiṣṇava. Do not mix with all rascals, asat . Now how shall I know who is rascal and who is not a . . .? Asat eka 'strī-saṅgī kṛṣṇa-bhakta āra . One who is too much attached with woman, he is rascal. Another rascal: who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. *So we have got everything test tube. Put the test tube and you understand. If one is strī*-saṅgī . . . strī-saṅgī means not only the man. The man or woman, one who are very much sexually attached, he is a rascal. One should give up his company. And another rascal: who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. So if you want to be a Vaiṣṇava, you must give up the company of these two rascals. Then your progress is guaranteed. Everything is there. There is no difficulty to distinguish between rascals and intelligent, guru and bluffer. Everything is there. And to become a perfect Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, asat-saṅga tyāga ei vaiṣṇava : don't talk even with these rascals. But sometimes in the preaching work we have to talk with such rascals, but not to take their theory but to teach them our theory. If you become defeated by their theory, then you are not a preacher. Don't preach; *chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You are not fit for teaching. If you become overcome by their teaching, then you are finished. A preacher is madhyama*-adhikārī , advanced devotee. He can preach. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī should be engaged in temple worship very nicely, then gradually he'll come to the madhyama-adhikārī . *So the preacher is madhyama*-adhikārī . A kaniṣṭha-adhikārī cannot become preacher. Who is in the lowest stage of devotional service, he cannot become preacher. He'll be conquered by the asat . And madhyama-adhikārī , he knows how to deal with asat . At least he does not mix with them. That's all. If he cannot defeat them, he should avoid them, because that valuable time can be utilized for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness to a person who is inquisitive to hear. Bāliśya . Bāliśya means innocent. He wants to know something about Kṛṣṇa. Better deal with him than with the rascals and waste time. Better avoid the rascals. Just like in hospital, emergency cases, the doctors, when they see that this patient hopeless, he does not take care anymore. But when there is hope, they give medicine and try to . . . the hopeless condition, better not. Don't talk with them. That's all. That is vaiṣṇava-ācāra . Then he'll remain safe. Hopeless person, don't waste your time talking with them. Īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca . Four observations. Bhagavān—īśvara; prema —love; *and prema*-maitrī , friendship with devotees; and kṛpa , mercy to the innocent person; *and upekṣā , no more talking. Don't waste time talking with all these nonsense. Better utilize, properly utilize the time by instructing a person who is innocent and eager to hear. Like that. So this mauna*-vrata-tapas-śruti . . . *These things are meant for ajitendriyānām , who could not control the senses. Ajitendriyānām . And who has engaged his senses in the service of the Lord, they are not ajitendriya . If you have engaged your mind in Kṛṣṇa—the mind is the king of senses—then your senses cannot be misled. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha (SB 9.4.18). Then if your mind is always in Kṛṣṇa, man-mana bhava mad bhakto , then what you'll speak except Kṛṣṇa? If you speak nonsense, that means your mind is not engaged in Kṛṣṇa. The mind is the center of all sensual activities. So if your mind is always in Kṛṣṇa, how we can talk nonsense? Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane . He'll be always engaged in talking about Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. So if we keep our mind always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there is no question of mauna , because we'll have to talk about Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I remain mauna ? If we talk about Kṛṣṇa, or what Kṛṣṇa has said, then I am benefited, and the audience, he is also benefited. Take Bhagavad-gītā and talk. So those who are Kṛṣṇa devotees, they will gladly hear. Those who are inquisitive, innocent, they'll also hear. And the dviṣāt , those who are envious, they'll go away. That's good, clear. Talk about Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. Don't talk anything else. Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can we give up our enviousness and reluctance to serve the spiritual master and the other devotees? Answer him. Dhrstadyumna: One can free himself from envy by serving. You serve the devotees and follow the instruction of the spiritual master. In this way the mind becomes your best friend. *A devotee is never envious of another devotee. He is not a devotee. Tad*-adhīneṣu maitrī (SB 11.2.46). One who is devotee, we have to make friendship with them. How we can hate them? Hm. Jaya , all glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya , haribol . (offer obeisances) ( kirtan ) (end) Conversation A -- June 28, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA (Conversation After Film) It was very beautiful. Yes. Very nice film. Very pleasing. Now make Indian Bengali edition. It will be very much appreciated in India. Yes. Is it not? Yes, everything looks so pleasing. Yes. They will very much like this movement. Make some Hindi version, Bengali. I think it will be a great success in India. *Oh, yes. Kumbha*-melā we can show. You had been in Kumbha-melā? *No, I haven't. Last time it was Kumbha*-melā, I was in Bombay. I had to do some business with books and stuff. So you begin this preaching work in India with this film. With few assistants go village to village. They'll appreciate very much. Here also they will appreciate. Hmm? What do you think? School, college, university. They'll get an idea of new life. *Yes. There are many colleges that give courses now in alternate life*-styles. Yes, this a . . . This film, they will love to show this in class. *Yes. This is the alternative life*-style. It is not that . . . this is the only. The other thing is fictitious. That's nice. Keep it. Any other film? No. Make similar films. And I was anxious about food preparation. That is there, already there. Could have been a little more, but . . . *No, it is . . . in nutshell everything is there. Our agriculture, our temple, and food growing, and everything is there. Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship. The sum and substance, everything. And you are living practically for the last . . . eight years? Here? Yes. You have no difficulty. You are happy more and more. Immense land. You can come, hundreds. We can provide. There is food. There is shelter. They are worried that by protecting the cow it would not be economic, that they would lose. But actually we have proof—the more we protect cows, the more we gain in opulence. Yes. Our community is gaining in opulence. *Yes. Dhānyena dhanavān . If you have got grain, then you are rich. And if you have got cows, then you are rich. This is the standard of Vedic richness. Dhānyena dhanavān gavayo dhanavān . They don't say, "Keep some papers and you become rich." All rascal, one thousand dollar I promise to pay, a piece of paper. Practical. We have got enough food grain, we have got enough . . . that is richness. What is use of paper? Even gold you have got, you have to exchange. And if you have grain, immediate food. Just boil with milk, and it is nectarean, paramānna, immediately. Take some wood collected from the wood and have fire, put the milk and the grains—oh, you'll get so nice food, nutritious, full of vitamin, and so easily made. It is practical. So tasteful, so nutritious, and don't require . . . if you simply boil little milk and little grain, whole day, so much sweet rice, you take— bās . You don't require any more. And if you add little apples and fruits, oh, it is heavenly. Your whole day free from any food anxiety, and you can work. And you can work. You can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make this ideal life here. America has got good potency. We have got so much land here. We can have hundreds of New Vrindabans or farms like that. And people will be happy. And invite all the world, "Please come and live with us. Why you are suffering congestion, overpopulation? Welcome here. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Make that. Indian culture and American strength make the whole world happy. That logic even I have given? Andha*-paṅgu? Blind and lame. *India could not improve on account of poverty—lame. And America? Blind for want of culture. So let the blind man carry the lame man on the head, and the lame man give direction that "Go this way," and he walks. So both men's work is done. There is no hampering because one is blind and one is lame. Combined together, they get the benefit. Andha*-paṅgor nyāya . The book distributors use that example sometimes. Yes. It works, too. Do it very sincerely. Don't spoil life. Be very sober and do this work. Whole world will be happy. After all, they are seeking after happiness. So there is happiness here. So our Ṛṣi Kumāra is very intelligent boy. He can do so many things. Don't spoil him. Whatever is done is done. Sometimes māyā is strong. He bewilders even Lord Śiva. That is . . . but Śiva immediately came to his senses—"What I am doing?" So things are going on nice. Continue this program. People will be happy. And I think America is the only place who can spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement happily for the benefit of the whole world. You have got everything sufficiently. Now get the Kṛṣṇa intelligence. Now here, in this quarter, sun also rising very nicely nowadays. Formerly it was not so bright. Due to this Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting, sun is giving light. Is it not? It is a fact, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The more people will be sinful, the place will be dark with cloudy. Nature will always disturb. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān ( BG 16.19). They will not be happy. It is not possible. This is the only way to become happy. So, so far as possible, I have given you some framework. Now you fill up. Make it a nice building. Yes. All right. (devotees offer obeisances) (break) Viśākhā was wondering who . . . if you have any idea or choice who should do the Hindi translation or Bengali translation and speaking for the film like this. Did you have anyone in particular in mind? Or inquiry should be made? It requires some professional man. Laymen cannot go with the film. It needs a trained speaker. Huh? Needs someone who's trained to speak nicely. Anyone can do. We can do also. But it may not come out so nice. But it may not be perfect. (break) Prabhupāda, is it all right if I remain a sannyāsī ? Stay for some time. You'll get sannyāsa . Stay for some time. Okay. I don't want to get married. It's just being kicked by māyā . I can see that. At least you have got already experience. (laughs) Don't be misled. Stay for sometimes. You will be given sannyāsa . And now Mr. Punja, has he written any letter? Mr. Punjasai? He wrote a letter recently. He mentioned the business about the books, that Gurukṛpā said he was supposed to some give books from Australia, and he wasn't getting them. So you can write him—note down—that "We are managing our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by GBC. We have got about twenty GBCs for looking after the whole world affair, and above the GBC, I am there, and under the GBCs there are president, treasurer, secretary in each and every center. So the president is responsible to the GBC. GBC is responsible to me. In this way we are managing. But why you are proposing a separate trustee for Fiji? We have no separate trustee till now, but if for security, if it is required, you can adopt it. So this is our management going on. Now, if you have got some new idea, so please explain to me how you want to manage. But I think Fiji temple cannot be managed in a separate idea. But still, I shall entertain if you have got some idea to manage. The deed should be given to the founder-ācārya, in the name of founder-ācārya, like 'A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Founder-Ācārya, International Society.'" The deed? The deed, yes. Should be . . .? *"It cannot be dedicated to any of the office*-bearers." There's one thing . . . I wanted to ask . . . Should be in there, "Founder-Ācārya." The deed should be . . .? I wanted to clarify that earlier this afternoon . . . *"Deed should be made in favor of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, Founder-Ācārya, International Society. But it cannot be dedicated to any office*-bearer. So I suggest that you become the president of the temple and Upendra become the secretary, and either your brother or your wife can become the treasurer. There is no need of trustees. But in any circumstances, the temple cannot be a private property in the name of ISKCON. That is not possible." "A private property in the name of ISKCON." "If you want to keep it a private property, then the ISKCON name should not be utilized." Here you have understood that he's trying to utilize ISKCON's name . . . To collect. . . . to collect, and he'll be keeper. That should be frankly disclosed, that "This is not possible." So we shall write our Upendra? No, I have already written that he should be the secretary. No? Yes. You mentioned earlier today that he was supposed to be one of the trustees, but now this is different, so . . . So we are not going to make any trustee. No, no trustee. That is wrong. I understand. Yes. So in this way write him, "I am very much anxious to get your clear reply to this thing." Is that all right? Yes. All right. Can I . . . *So many things, " push*-push-push-push ," is going on. Let it be clear. If he wants to keep it private property, then we shall withdraw ISKCON name. Let him do it privately. And he should send copies of the deeds also. Yes. Because he has not yet produced the deeds. That's what I wanted to ask, request a copy of the deed. You understand Hindi? Not really. A little bit, but I can't follow it. Do you want me to go to India, Prabhupāda? Wherever you find suitable. I was thinking about going back to Los Angeles for a while, because there's good preaching to be done in Los Angeles and Laguna Beach, too. I know a lot of people there. Los Angeles or New York. New York is your old place. But you don't want to go there? New York? I can go there, I guess, but . . . No, you can remain in Los Angeles for the time being. Because I know a lot of people in Laguna Beach who can be preached to. I think they'd be receptive, people who are . . . Reception is everywhere if we manage nice. And there are a lot of artists and people who have everything, and they're living in the nicest . . . that's about the nicest place to live, and they're all unhappy. My brother's living there. He's a psychiatrist, and he's beginning to understand that the more he thinks, the more confused he gets. And I've been preaching to him, and he understands. There are also a lot of devotees who aren't in the temple now. They like Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but they also could be preached to, I think. Yes, preaching constantly required to keep them in balance. As soon as the balance is overloaded on the māyā side, then everything is finished. They get a bit overwhelmed sometimes. *That is possible. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very strong. But if we also become equally strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no . . . that . . . just like in the beginning, a seed sown, it requires very careful attention. Then it grows up. And when one grows a tree, then that is all right. But so long it is not a tree—it is a plant—one has to take . . . and the watering is śravaṇa*-kīrtana . Śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana . That is required. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare āropaṇa , śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana . I think, Nineteenth Chapter of Madhya-līlā . It's a very good description how the bhakti tree grows, the creeper of bhakti . *Śravaṇa*-kīrtana-jale karaye secana ? Nineteenth Chapter, Madhya-līlā . "When a person receives the seed of devotional service, he should take care of it by becoming a gardener and sowing the seed in his heart. If he waters the seed gradually by the process of śravaṇa and kīrtana , hearing and chanting, the seed will begin to sprout." Is there any purport? *Yes. "To live with devotees or to live in a temple means to associate with the śravaṇa*-kīrtana process. Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution of śravaṇa-kīrtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who engaged in the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity. However, one should not falsely imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura and abandon Deity worship just to try to engage in śravaṇa-kīrtana . This is not possible for neophyte devotees. The word guru-prasāda indicates that the spiritual master is very merciful in bestowing the boon of devotional service upon the disciple. That is the best possible gift the spiritual master has to offer. Those with a background of pious life are eligible to receive life's supreme benefit, and to bestow this benefit, the Supreme Personality of Godhead sends His representative to impart His mercy. Endowed with the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the spiritual master distributes the mercy to those who are elevated and pious. Thus the spiritual master trains his disciples to render devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called gurukṛpā . It is kṛṣṇa-prasāda, Kṛṣṇa's mercy, that He sends a bona fide spiritual master to the deserving disciple. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, one meets the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of the spiritual master, the disciple is fully trained in the devotional service of the Lord. *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja means 'the seed of devotional service.' Everything has an original cause, or seed. For any idea, program, plan or device, there is first of all the contemplation of the plan, and that is called bīja , or the seed. The methods, rules and regulations by which one is perfectly trained in devotional service constitute the bhakti-latā-bīja , or seed of devotional service. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received from the spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Other seeds are called anyabhilāṣita-bīja , karma-bīja and jñāna-bīja . If one is not fortunate enough to receive the bhakti-latā-bīja from the spiritual master, he instead cultivates the seeds of karma-bīja , jñāna-bīja , or political and social or philanthropic bīja . However, bhakti-latā-bīja is different from these other bījas . Bhakti-latā-bīja can be received only through the mercy of the spiritual master. Therefore one has to satisfy the spiritual master to get bhakti-latā-bīja : yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . Bhakti-latā-bīja is the origin of devotional service. Unless one satisfies the spiritual master, he gets the bīja , or root cause, of karma , jñāna or yoga without the benefit of devotional service. However, one who is faithful to his spiritual master gets the bhakti-latā-bīja . *"This bhakti*-latā-bīja is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master. After receiving the spiritual master's mercy, one must repeat his instructions, and this is called śravaṇa-kīrtana —hearing and chanting. One who has not properly heard from the spiritual master or who does not follow the regulative principles is not fit for chanting, kīrtana . This is explained in Bhagavad-gītā : vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana (BG 2.41). One who has not listened carefully to the instructions of the spiritual master is unfit to chant or preach the cult of devotional service. One has to water the bhakti-latā-bīja after receiving instructions from the spiritual master." Jaya . Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (offers obeisances) (break) . . . there were a funny man. Name was Gopal Bhan. So formerly kings, they used to keep some funny men because they are always full of anxiety, and one funny man would give them joke. They call them jesters, court jesters. Jester. Court jester. Yes. Court jesters, yes. So there was a man, court jesters, in Bengal. So the Muhammadan governor asked one Gopal Bhan, jester . . . he was jester in the court of Raja Krishnachandra. So he asked him, nawab, that "Gopal Bhan, I have heard that you are very expert. Can you write a similar book, *Mahābhārata*, about my kingdom?" (laughter) "Oh, yes. Why not? That is not . . ." So he took some hundred thousands of rupees and again come: "Give me another ten thousand," "Another ten," in this way. "When the book will be finished? You have taken so much money." "It is just on the verge of being finished." Then, when he saw that no more money can be taken—"I have taken so much money"—then he one day said that "Now, sir, one information is very essential. That is wanted. You give me, and the *Mahābhārata* will be finished. Everything is there." "What is that information?" "Now, your wife, how many husband she has got?" "This is nonsense!" "Eh? Well, that is the main subject matter of *Mahābhārata* . Draupadī had five husbands, so you are such a great person, your wife must have at least one dozen. Otherwise, how *Mahābhārata* will be . . .?" "It is the subject matter of?" "Yes, that is the only subject matter, that Draupadī had five husbands. So you are such a big nawab, your wife must at least have one dozen. So give me their names." So he became very angry: "Don't talk all this nonsense." "Then I cannot finish your *Mahābhārata* ." "I have already invested . . ." So he took another ten thousand rupees, and he said, "Stop all this nonsense. That's all right." So these rascals, they are writing Gopal Bhan's *Mahābhārata* , and the rascal government is paying them. They are not producing anything. They'll never be able. Challenge. "That we cannot say." As soon as you say, "Make an egg," "That we cannot say." And they'll chant, "Chemical evolution, chemical evolution" and get Nobel Prize. Rascals. But how the people are so foolish that they believe in this? *Oṁ ajñāna*-timirāndhasya . Without spiritual master there is nothing they can say. This is very simple. You see everything, white and yellow. Produce. Chemicals are white. Some chemicals are yellow also. Just like hydroform, it is yellow. And soda bicarb, white, or potash cyanide is white. So you have got so many chemicals. Combine and pack it in a cell, and put underneath the incubator. Why rascal do not do this? Beat them with shoes. "Rascal, you are cheating in this way." Beat them with shoes. That's all. That is the only punishment. Yeah, that's too good. Hundreds of men demand them, that "Do it; otherwise don't talk nonsense. If you talk nonsense, then we will beat you with all our shoes." Then they'll stop all this nonsense talk. There is no punishment for their cheating and taking money. That's a fact. *Your Back to Godhead article in this last magazine, "They can make a 747 jet, but not a tiny mosquito." Very thought*-provoking. *With pilot. 747, you have to pay expert pilot, but here with pilot. Make this. Simply talking. Not only mosquito: at night we see so many, just like full stop, the same mechanical, flying from here, there, from here moving. Aeroplane, exactly in the form of . . . similarly standing and . . . that is our challenge. Challenge this. Go in public meeting. Bring these so*-called scientists, "Why don't you make any . . .? Why do you talk all this nonsense and cheat people?" Simple. Why first of all Sunday? There is no Monday first. I think never this question's raised, anybody. Fool's paradise. The Western world is fool's paradise. Actually this is the time they are getting enlightenment. Otherwise they are all fool's paradise. No social life, no religious life, simply get money somehow or other and enjoy wine, women, meat. That's all. This is their civilization. Do live comfortably; there is no harm. But why misconception? At least be honest. Yes. How can you deny God? All the scientists, they deny God. This simple fact that there is . . . (break) . . . is mother, and beginning from grass to the highest form of human being there are children. The mother is there; the children are there. Who is the father? How you can say there is no father? If the mother is there, then child is there, there must be father. I do not know how they can deny a supreme father. Anyway, this New Vrindavan life will attract people gradually, this peaceful life. They are searching after alternative. Oh, yeah. In the Vedic culture did they have sheep? Sheep herds? Did they keep sheep? Who? For making, you know, the wool, woolen garments like the cap and cādara. Sometimes it's made out of wool. They would get from sheep? *Yes. No, the meat*-eaters cannot be stopped. They will eat meat. So they can kill the small animals, unimportant, not cow. Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . He never said lamb- rakṣya or hog- rakṣya . (laughs) You can eat hog. If it is decided that you must eat meat, then you can eat a nonimportant animal. We have no objection. Or at least, as you said this morning, wait until the cow dies naturally. That is another. Otherwise, if you want to kill, you kill less important animal. Chickens and rabbits. Like that. Yes. But give protection to the cow, the source of milk. In most rural districts formerly, even just sixty or seventy years ago, they used to do that. The used to keep a hog or some animals for killing. They would fatten them up and kill them. Still in India, the low class, they keep hogs for killing. And they publicly kill the hog by burning outside the village skirt. I can remember when I was a child that my grandfather, he had one pigsty. And the house that we were living in, that also had a pigsty at the back. There were no pigs by the time I came, but only just a few years before they were doing that. Why the government should keep slaughterhouse? You asked them that in Mauritius, I remember. The government started a chicken slaughterhouse. You said, "Why the government should have slaughterhouse?" And they replied, "They will kill them anyway. There are so many Muslims." Prabhupāda said, "Let them kill, but why the government should support this slaughter?" Let them kill at their house. Especially chicken, anyone can kill. The government's idea is that "The people are going to do these activities, so we may as well cash in, make money." Huh? The government, their idea is that "If they are going to do this activity, then let us make money." And as soon as I heard that prime minister went to open this, I immediately . . . Prabhupāda didn't want to meet him. "Oh, he's a rascal." In Mauritius the prime minister opened a chicken factory. Yes, he's a Hindu, too. Immediately I gave up the idea of meeting this rascal. (break) Well, of course, they'll always try to claim . . . From our estimation it is failure. They have not gone there. No. But what is their standard of failure and success? Well, they don't . . . they're establishing a standard now. They don't have a standard. They are always going to try to claim that it is beneficial. Otherwise, if it's judged a failure, then they won't get any money. That way they are successful—in getting money. So they have to say it's a success. Just like this Mars thing. If they can land a spaceship that takes a few photographs, supposedly of Mars, then that's considered a success. Photograph you can take anywhere. Yes. Could they actually send . . .? Are they actually sending these spaceships to another planet, or . . .? That they know. According to our calculations, they have not gone. No. It is false propaganda. They cannot go. We can go on a morning walk now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hmm? We can go now, if you like. (end) Conversation A -- June 28, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA (Conversation After Film) It was very beautiful. Yes. Very nice film. Very pleasing. Now make Indian Bengali edition. It will be very much appreciated in India. Yes. Is it not? Yes, everything looks so pleasing. Yes. They will very much like this movement. Make some Hindi version, Bengali. I think it will be a great success in India. *Oh, yes. Kumbha*-melā we can show. You had been in Kumbha-melā? *No, I haven't. Last time it was Kumbha*-melā, I was in Bombay. I had to do some business with books and stuff. So you begin this preaching work in India with this film. With few assistants go village to village. They'll appreciate very much. Here also they will appreciate. Hmm? What do you think? School, college, university. They'll get an idea of new life. *Yes. There are many colleges that give courses now in alternate life*-styles. Yes, this a . . . This film, they will love to show this in class. *Yes. This is the alternative life*-style. It is not that . . . this is the only. The other thing is fictitious. That's nice. Keep it. Any other film? No. Make similar films. And I was anxious about food preparation. That is there, already there. Could have been a little more, but . . . *No, it is . . . in nutshell everything is there. Our agriculture, our temple, and food growing, and everything is there. Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship. The sum and substance, everything. And you are living practically for the last . . . eight years? Here? Yes. You have no difficulty. You are happy more and more. Immense land. You can come, hundreds. We can provide. There is food. There is shelter. They are worried that by protecting the cow it would not be economic, that they would lose. But actually we have proof—the more we protect cows, the more we gain in opulence. Yes. Our community is gaining in opulence. *Yes. Dhānyena dhanavān . If you have got grain, then you are rich. And if you have got cows, then you are rich. This is the standard of Vedic richness. Dhānyena dhanavān gavayo dhanavān . They don't say, "Keep some papers and you become rich." All rascal, one thousand dollar I promise to pay, a piece of paper. Practical. We have got enough food grain, we have got enough . . . that is richness. What is use of paper? Even gold you have got, you have to exchange. And if you have grain, immediate food. Just boil with milk, and it is nectarean, paramānna, immediately. Take some wood collected from the wood and have fire, put the milk and the grains—oh, you'll get so nice food, nutritious, full of vitamin, and so easily made. It is practical. So tasteful, so nutritious, and don't require . . . if you simply boil little milk and little grain, whole day, so much sweet rice, you take— bās . You don't require any more. And if you add little apples and fruits, oh, it is heavenly. Your whole day free from any food anxiety, and you can work. And you can work. You can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make this ideal life here. America has got good potency. We have got so much land here. We can have hundreds of New Vrindabans or farms like that. And people will be happy. And invite all the world, "Please come and live with us. Why you are suffering congestion, overpopulation? Welcome here. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Make that. Indian culture and American strength make the whole world happy. That logic even I have given? Andha*-paṅgu? Blind and lame. *India could not improve on account of poverty—lame. And America? Blind for want of culture. So let the blind man carry the lame man on the head, and the lame man give direction that "Go this way," and he walks. So both men's work is done. There is no hampering because one is blind and one is lame. Combined together, they get the benefit. Andha*-paṅgor nyāya . The book distributors use that example sometimes. Yes. It works, too. Do it very sincerely. Don't spoil life. Be very sober and do this work. Whole world will be happy. After all, they are seeking after happiness. So there is happiness here. So our Ṛṣi Kumāra is very intelligent boy. He can do so many things. Don't spoil him. Whatever is done is done. Sometimes māyā is strong. He bewilders even Lord Śiva. That is . . . but Śiva immediately came to his senses—"What I am doing?" So things are going on nice. Continue this program. People will be happy. And I think America is the only place who can spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement happily for the benefit of the whole world. You have got everything sufficiently. Now get the Kṛṣṇa intelligence. Now here, in this quarter, sun also rising very nicely nowadays. Formerly it was not so bright. Due to this Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting, sun is giving light. Is it not? It is a fact, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The more people will be sinful, the place will be dark with cloudy. Nature will always disturb. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān ( BG 16.19). They will not be happy. It is not possible. This is the only way to become happy. So, so far as possible, I have given you some framework. Now you fill up. Make it a nice building. Yes. All right. (devotees offer obeisances) (break) Viśākhā was wondering who . . . if you have any idea or choice who should do the Hindi translation or Bengali translation and speaking for the film like this. Did you have anyone in particular in mind? Or inquiry should be made? It requires some professional man. Laymen cannot go with the film. It needs a trained speaker. Huh? Needs someone who's trained to speak nicely. Anyone can do. We can do also. But it may not come out so nice. But it may not be perfect. (break) Prabhupāda, is it all right if I remain a sannyāsī ? Stay for some time. You'll get sannyāsa . Stay for some time. Okay. I don't want to get married. It's just being kicked by māyā . I can see that. At least you have got already experience. (laughs) Don't be misled. Stay for sometimes. You will be given sannyāsa . And now Mr. Punja, has he written any letter? Mr. Punjasai? He wrote a letter recently. He mentioned the business about the books, that Gurukṛpā said he was supposed to some give books from Australia, and he wasn't getting them. So you can write him—note down—that "We are managing our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by GBC. We have got about twenty GBCs for looking after the whole world affair, and above the GBC, I am there, and under the GBCs there are president, treasurer, secretary in each and every center. So the president is responsible to the GBC. GBC is responsible to me. In this way we are managing. But why you are proposing a separate trustee for Fiji? We have no separate trustee till now, but if for security, if it is required, you can adopt it. So this is our management going on. Now, if you have got some new idea, so please explain to me how you want to manage. But I think Fiji temple cannot be managed in a separate idea. But still, I shall entertain if you have got some idea to manage. The deed should be given to the founder-ācārya, in the name of founder-ācārya, like 'A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Founder-Ācārya, International Society.'" The deed? The deed, yes. Should be . . .? *"It cannot be dedicated to any of the office*-bearers." There's one thing . . . I wanted to ask . . . Should be in there, "Founder-Ācārya." The deed should be . . .? I wanted to clarify that earlier this afternoon . . . *"Deed should be made in favor of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, Founder-Ācārya, International Society. But it cannot be dedicated to any office*-bearer. So I suggest that you become the president of the temple and Upendra become the secretary, and either your brother or your wife can become the treasurer. There is no need of trustees. But in any circumstances, the temple cannot be a private property in the name of ISKCON. That is not possible." "A private property in the name of ISKCON." "If you want to keep it a private property, then the ISKCON name should not be utilized." Here you have understood that he's trying to utilize ISKCON's name . . . To collect. . . . to collect, and he'll be keeper. That should be frankly disclosed, that "This is not possible." So we shall write our Upendra? No, I have already written that he should be the secretary. No? Yes. You mentioned earlier today that he was supposed to be one of the trustees, but now this is different, so . . . So we are not going to make any trustee. No, no trustee. That is wrong. I understand. Yes. So in this way write him, "I am very much anxious to get your clear reply to this thing." Is that all right? Yes. All right. Can I . . . *So many things, " push*-push-push-push ," is going on. Let it be clear. If he wants to keep it private property, then we shall withdraw ISKCON name. Let him do it privately. And he should send copies of the deeds also. Yes. Because he has not yet produced the deeds. That's what I wanted to ask, request a copy of the deed. You understand Hindi? Not really. A little bit, but I can't follow it. Do you want me to go to India, Prabhupāda? Wherever you find suitable. I was thinking about going back to Los Angeles for a while, because there's good preaching to be done in Los Angeles and Laguna Beach, too. I know a lot of people there. Los Angeles or New York. New York is your old place. But you don't want to go there? New York? I can go there, I guess, but . . . No, you can remain in Los Angeles for the time being. Because I know a lot of people in Laguna Beach who can be preached to. I think they'd be receptive, people who are . . . Reception is everywhere if we manage nice. And there are a lot of artists and people who have everything, and they're living in the nicest . . . that's about the nicest place to live, and they're all unhappy. My brother's living there. He's a psychiatrist, and he's beginning to understand that the more he thinks, the more confused he gets. And I've been preaching to him, and he understands. There are also a lot of devotees who aren't in the temple now. They like Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but they also could be preached to, I think. Yes, preaching constantly required to keep them in balance. As soon as the balance is overloaded on the māyā side, then everything is finished. They get a bit overwhelmed sometimes. *That is possible. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very strong. But if we also become equally strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no . . . that . . . just like in the beginning, a seed sown, it requires very careful attention. Then it grows up. And when one grows a tree, then that is all right. But so long it is not a tree—it is a plant—one has to take . . . and the watering is śravaṇa*-kīrtana . Śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana . That is required. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare āropaṇa , śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana . I think, Nineteenth Chapter of Madhya-līlā . It's a very good description how the bhakti tree grows, the creeper of bhakti . *Śravaṇa*-kīrtana-jale karaye secana ? Nineteenth Chapter, Madhya-līlā . "When a person receives the seed of devotional service, he should take care of it by becoming a gardener and sowing the seed in his heart. If he waters the seed gradually by the process of śravaṇa and kīrtana , hearing and chanting, the seed will begin to sprout." Is there any purport? *Yes. "To live with devotees or to live in a temple means to associate with the śravaṇa*-kīrtana process. Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution of śravaṇa-kīrtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who engaged in the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity. However, one should not falsely imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura and abandon Deity worship just to try to engage in śravaṇa-kīrtana . This is not possible for neophyte devotees. The word guru-prasāda indicates that the spiritual master is very merciful in bestowing the boon of devotional service upon the disciple. That is the best possible gift the spiritual master has to offer. Those with a background of pious life are eligible to receive life's supreme benefit, and to bestow this benefit, the Supreme Personality of Godhead sends His representative to impart His mercy. Endowed with the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the spiritual master distributes the mercy to those who are elevated and pious. Thus the spiritual master trains his disciples to render devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called gurukṛpā . It is kṛṣṇa-prasāda, Kṛṣṇa's mercy, that He sends a bona fide spiritual master to the deserving disciple. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, one meets the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of the spiritual master, the disciple is fully trained in the devotional service of the Lord. *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja means 'the seed of devotional service.' Everything has an original cause, or seed. For any idea, program, plan or device, there is first of all the contemplation of the plan, and that is called bīja , or the seed. The methods, rules and regulations by which one is perfectly trained in devotional service constitute the bhakti-latā-bīja , or seed of devotional service. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received from the spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Other seeds are called anyabhilāṣita-bīja , karma-bīja and jñāna-bīja . If one is not fortunate enough to receive the bhakti-latā-bīja from the spiritual master, he instead cultivates the seeds of karma-bīja , jñāna-bīja , or political and social or philanthropic bīja . However, bhakti-latā-bīja is different from these other bījas . Bhakti-latā-bīja can be received only through the mercy of the spiritual master. Therefore one has to satisfy the spiritual master to get bhakti-latā-bīja : yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . Bhakti-latā-bīja is the origin of devotional service. Unless one satisfies the spiritual master, he gets the bīja , or root cause, of karma , jñāna or yoga without the benefit of devotional service. However, one who is faithful to his spiritual master gets the bhakti-latā-bīja . *"This bhakti*-latā-bīja is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master. After receiving the spiritual master's mercy, one must repeat his instructions, and this is called śravaṇa-kīrtana —hearing and chanting. One who has not properly heard from the spiritual master or who does not follow the regulative principles is not fit for chanting, kīrtana . This is explained in Bhagavad-gītā : vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana (BG 2.41). One who has not listened carefully to the instructions of the spiritual master is unfit to chant or preach the cult of devotional service. One has to water the bhakti-latā-bīja after receiving instructions from the spiritual master." Jaya . Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (offers obeisances) (break) . . . there were a funny man. Name was Gopal Bhan. So formerly kings, they used to keep some funny men because they are always full of anxiety, and one funny man would give them joke. They call them jesters, court jesters. Jester. Court jester. Yes. Court jesters, yes. So there was a man, court jesters, in Bengal. So the Muhammadan governor asked one Gopal Bhan, jester . . . he was jester in the court of Raja Krishnachandra. So he asked him, nawab, that "Gopal Bhan, I have heard that you are very expert. Can you write a similar book, *Mahābhārata*, about my kingdom?" (laughter) "Oh, yes. Why not? That is not . . ." So he took some hundred thousands of rupees and again come: "Give me another ten thousand," "Another ten," in this way. "When the book will be finished? You have taken so much money." "It is just on the verge of being finished." Then, when he saw that no more money can be taken—"I have taken so much money"—then he one day said that "Now, sir, one information is very essential. That is wanted. You give me, and the *Mahābhārata* will be finished. Everything is there." "What is that information?" "Now, your wife, how many husband she has got?" "This is nonsense!" "Eh? Well, that is the main subject matter of *Mahābhārata* . Draupadī had five husbands, so you are such a great person, your wife must have at least one dozen. Otherwise, how *Mahābhārata* will be . . .?" "It is the subject matter of?" "Yes, that is the only subject matter, that Draupadī had five husbands. So you are such a big nawab, your wife must at least have one dozen. So give me their names." So he became very angry: "Don't talk all this nonsense." "Then I cannot finish your *Mahābhārata* ." "I have already invested . . ." So he took another ten thousand rupees, and he said, "Stop all this nonsense. That's all right." So these rascals, they are writing Gopal Bhan's *Mahābhārata* , and the rascal government is paying them. They are not producing anything. They'll never be able. Challenge. "That we cannot say." As soon as you say, "Make an egg," "That we cannot say." And they'll chant, "Chemical evolution, chemical evolution" and get Nobel Prize. Rascals. But how the people are so foolish that they believe in this? *Oṁ ajñāna*-timirāndhasya . Without spiritual master there is nothing they can say. This is very simple. You see everything, white and yellow. Produce. Chemicals are white. Some chemicals are yellow also. Just like hydroform, it is yellow. And soda bicarb, white, or potash cyanide is white. So you have got so many chemicals. Combine and pack it in a cell, and put underneath the incubator. Why rascal do not do this? Beat them with shoes. "Rascal, you are cheating in this way." Beat them with shoes. That's all. That is the only punishment. Yeah, that's too good. Hundreds of men demand them, that "Do it; otherwise don't talk nonsense. If you talk nonsense, then we will beat you with all our shoes." Then they'll stop all this nonsense talk. There is no punishment for their cheating and taking money. That's a fact. *Your Back to Godhead article in this last magazine, "They can make a 747 jet, but not a tiny mosquito." Very thought*-provoking. *With pilot. 747, you have to pay expert pilot, but here with pilot. Make this. Simply talking. Not only mosquito: at night we see so many, just like full stop, the same mechanical, flying from here, there, from here moving. Aeroplane, exactly in the form of . . . similarly standing and . . . that is our challenge. Challenge this. Go in public meeting. Bring these so*-called scientists, "Why don't you make any . . .? Why do you talk all this nonsense and cheat people?" Simple. Why first of all Sunday? There is no Monday first. I think never this question's raised, anybody. Fool's paradise. The Western world is fool's paradise. Actually this is the time they are getting enlightenment. Otherwise they are all fool's paradise. No social life, no religious life, simply get money somehow or other and enjoy wine, women, meat. That's all. This is their civilization. Do live comfortably; there is no harm. But why misconception? At least be honest. Yes. How can you deny God? All the scientists, they deny God. This simple fact that there is . . . (break) . . . is mother, and beginning from grass to the highest form of human being there are children. The mother is there; the children are there. Who is the father? How you can say there is no father? If the mother is there, then child is there, there must be father. I do not know how they can deny a supreme father. Anyway, this New Vrindavan life will attract people gradually, this peaceful life. They are searching after alternative. Oh, yeah. In the Vedic culture did they have sheep? Sheep herds? Did they keep sheep? Who? For making, you know, the wool, woolen garments like the cap and cādara. Sometimes it's made out of wool. They would get from sheep? *Yes. No, the meat*-eaters cannot be stopped. They will eat meat. So they can kill the small animals, unimportant, not cow. Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . He never said lamb- rakṣya or hog- rakṣya . (laughs) You can eat hog. If it is decided that you must eat meat, then you can eat a nonimportant animal. We have no objection. Or at least, as you said this morning, wait until the cow dies naturally. That is another. Otherwise, if you want to kill, you kill less important animal. Chickens and rabbits. Like that. Yes. But give protection to the cow, the source of milk. In most rural districts formerly, even just sixty or seventy years ago, they used to do that. The used to keep a hog or some animals for killing. They would fatten them up and kill them. Still in India, the low class, they keep hogs for killing. And they publicly kill the hog by burning outside the village skirt. I can remember when I was a child that my grandfather, he had one pigsty. And the house that we were living in, that also had a pigsty at the back. There were no pigs by the time I came, but only just a few years before they were doing that. Why the government should keep slaughterhouse? You asked them that in Mauritius, I remember. The government started a chicken slaughterhouse. You said, "Why the government should have slaughterhouse?" And they replied, "They will kill them anyway. There are so many Muslims." Prabhupāda said, "Let them kill, but why the government should support this slaughter?" Let them kill at their house. Especially chicken, anyone can kill. The government's idea is that "The people are going to do these activities, so we may as well cash in, make money." Huh? The government, their idea is that "If they are going to do this activity, then let us make money." And as soon as I heard that prime minister went to open this, I immediately . . . Prabhupāda didn't want to meet him. "Oh, he's a rascal." In Mauritius the prime minister opened a chicken factory. Yes, he's a Hindu, too. Immediately I gave up the idea of meeting this rascal. (break) Well, of course, they'll always try to claim . . . From our estimation it is failure. They have not gone there. No. But what is their standard of failure and success? Well, they don't . . . they're establishing a standard now. They don't have a standard. They are always going to try to claim that it is beneficial. Otherwise, if it's judged a failure, then they won't get any money. That way they are successful—in getting money. So they have to say it's a success. Just like this Mars thing. If they can land a spaceship that takes a few photographs, supposedly of Mars, then that's considered a success. Photograph you can take anywhere. Yes. Could they actually send . . .? Are they actually sending these spaceships to another planet, or . . .? That they know. According to our calculations, they have not gone. No. It is false propaganda. They cannot go. We can go on a morning walk now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hmm? We can go now, if you like. (end) Conversation A -- June 29, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA Now what we've been doing with the dead cows is burying them. There's no . . . everything's wasted. Śrīla Prabhupāda is proposing that why not the butcher take, we give free, he simply returns us the skin of the cow, and with the cowhide we properly tan it, we can make mṛdaṅga heads for the khol , and shoes, straps, whatever may be needed. The idea being that in the Western countries especially, people are accustomed to eating animals, animal flesh. So we have no objection. Beef, especially beef. Especially cows and beef. So we have no objection, but they should at least wait until it dies naturally. What is the harm? They still get the same thing, and one devotee, Kīrtanānanda, I think, was saying that when they slaughter an animal even in the slaughterhouse, it has to sit some time, some number of days before they distribute it. So I proposed that the Westerners, they consider that this is superstitious, this protection of the cow. Prabhupāda said, "Why superstitious?" The cow is providing milk. Every child knows that he's getting milk from the cow; the cow is mother. So why in the old age we should slaughter mother? Is this a good argument that like, for example, they say in India how so many people are starving, why don't they eat the cows? So Prabhupāda proposed that "So if you're starving, does it mean that you eat your mother and father?" If you want to eat, let the father and mother die, then eat. (laughter) Who has objection? It's so reasonable. It's so reasonable. At least, Prabhupāda says, for the saner section, they will accept. The thing is, people are mad after meat. Madman . . . But they still get it. But he'll get meat. But then their argument is that if we don't have big, big slaughterhouses, then there won't be enough supply. No why should . . .? After all, the animal is going to die. It is not for . . . he's permanently. Why should you kill? But they kill the animal first in the slaughterhouse and then do whatever they have to do. But we are killing when they are young, when their meat is fresh. When the body is old, the meat is . . . That you have to change. Fresh or dead, you're eating flesh, that's all. You wait till the death. But the old flesh is not . . . Anyway, you do not . . . you do whatever you like. So at least you can take free of charges a dead cow from us, and you can give us only the skin, and you eat. This should be the system. Yes. It's so reasonable. We don't want anything from you; you take it, the whole flesh. You take free. You simply give us the skin; we can utilize it. Even if people would do this, it would be such an advancement. Oh, yes. Because a class of men will demand to eat the flesh. You cannot stop it. So we are giving free: you eat. And from economic point of view, we require the skin for our mṛdaṅga making. So give us the skin. That's all. Prabhupāda says the butcher, even, he can sell the meat cheaply, make profit. He's getting it free of charge. Maybe some time in the future this could happen when Kṛṣṇa consciousness becomes very powerful influence in the country, but unless we could actually close the slaughterhouse . . . No, but now by imploring, we are requesting him that "You can take this cow and sell in your shop, butcher shop; you give us the skin. And you can tell the customer that it is as good, it is cheaper. So whatever money you get, that is your profit. You haven't got to invest anything." Do you propose that we should do this now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (laughs) No, no, this is . . . think over. Yes, the proposition is very good, that's a fact. First of all, you try one butcher, that "Why not make this advantage?" How does he react, see. Yes, that he will not pay anything . . . He's not going to pay us. Simply take it and sell it. They sell meat . . . for one pound of meat, they can get sometimes two dollars, three dollars, four dollars. So much money, big cow. But the government has inspectors, a team of inspectors. No meat can be sold unless it is inspected, and then they want to examine the condition. So let them inspect. What is the wrong there? It should be open. If the inspection, there is nothing wrong, then they can do this business. Generally, though, their inspection is when the animal is alive, they check to see that he has no disease. Then they can be killed. But if an animal dies naturally, then generally it is to be supposed that it dies from some malfunction within the body, that there may be some diseases or whatever. So then . . . That is artificial. They have so many rules. But that is their rules and regulations they have. They'll change. When they, by chemical analysis, they don't find any fault, then they can change. They have no substance. From economic point of view, why this body should be wasted? Let it be utilized. Those that are eating, let them eat. And economic point of view, we save the skin. We require it for our purpose. That is the idea. After all, we require the skin for our khol making. And for the farm straps? Shoes, slippers, so many things. I think Kīrtanānanda Swami has done that with some of the cows. They have taken the hide for making the straps and the leather . . . They're not doing it now, though. But we should not do it ourselves. Yes, that's for the mucis. That is not our business. Give it to the butcher. He will get the skin and give it to us. Yes. Not that everything we have to do. No. That will deteriorate. Those who are doing, let it be done by them. It seems like it will be a long time before we can implement something like that. I am proposing; *think over. Because it is a fact that in spite our vigorous propaganda, we cannot stop meat*-eating. That is not possible. People will eat. So those who are eating, let us make some arrangement that "You take it free of charges." From economic point of view, they get it free. They can make good profit. And we are interested with the skin. So why not make some arrangement? It is practical. That's very good. Instead of the thing being wasted for nothing, let us devise some means, that "You are eating, you can eat." And we want the skin, let us give it. What is the wrong there? Perfect economics. Yes. We require the skin, that's a fact. And you want to eat, all right, eat. Could such a thing be done in India today also? No, why it will be done? Everywhere it should be done. Who does not eat meat? That is the . . . first of all, you try this. From economic point of view, why one thing should be wasted? Practical preaching. *We can't stop meat*-eating, but we can stop the unnecessary slaughter of animals. Yes. That would be a great step forward. *So our business is to stop slaughter. Meat*-eating we cannot stop. Certain persons, they must eat. They are fourth-class and then fifth-class men. There are four classifications— brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra and caṇḍāla . Caṇḍālas , they will remain, and they are eating. So let them eat meat. That is the system in India still. It is not that in India nobody's eating meat. The cobbler class, they eat; the caṇḍāla class, they eat. Even cows, cow flesh. Dead. This cow killing has been introduced by these Britishers. Christian philosophy. Christians. I saw in Juhu the Christians. Now even they're exporting beef from India. Yes. They can do anything, take the dead cows. I do not know if there is any chemical composition change. They are eating so many dead animals. Take for fish. The fish is never killed alive, because as soon as you take it out from water, it is dead, after few minutes. And they don't consider if it's a young fish or an old fish. If that was the system, people will not get sick. They will not get sick from eating old animals. No, no. This is all wrong conception. They will say . . . simply think the taste there is too tough, the skin may be older. They are eating so many rotten things. Yes. And they are burning it, cooking it. Lobster, it is simply pus. They eat. I've seen it. From whiteness it has become yellow, puslike. They eat it, what is called that soup? Lobster soup? Clam chowder. So many things. But they like very much that lobster soup. In the plane, one Englishman was doing, "What is this? I asked after lobster soup." In England? Oysters? No, lobsters. With the big pinchers. They have big, long feelers. They get the lobsters sometimes alive, and they throw them in boiling water, and they can hear them screaming. But now they're speculating whether it's actually the lobsters screaming because it's being boiled alive or whether it's just air that's coming out from its body and making a squeaking noise. No, that is, apart from that, they import lobster from India, Cochin. They are exporting lobster alive. I have seen. The same ship, they load it with lobster, fatty, and black creeper, and cashew, they exported. The big, big business firms for exporting. So these lobster, although they are kept in ice and so on, so on, they become decomposed. I've seen in the port, that Commonwealth Pier. There is store of lobster, and the lobster has become yellow and almost melted by decomposing. They are selling that. When it starts to fall apart, that's when they consider it's the best. Hmm? When it starts to fall apart, that's when they think it's the best. I think I mentioned before, in England, the gentry, the British gentry, when they used to go hunting, shooting pheasants and partridges, afterwards they would get the dead birds and hang them in a shed outside, and then after some days, when all the skin and the feathers were literally falling off, that's when they would eat it. That's when it was considered rich. There are so many kadarya things. In Burma, they have got a system, Burmese family. In the door, there is a pot, a big pot. So whatever animal dies, put it there and cover it. So in this way, after some years, they're decomposed, and it becomes liquid, and then it is so decomposed that if you open it, even three miles they smell. So that is mature. Then they take out the liquid and keep it in bottle. That is called naphi . And they stock it, and when there is some feast at home they'll give little that naphi and they'll relish it. Barbers? Burma. Burma. That's the most . . . And when you fry lucī , all the other tenants will come, "What you are cooking?" This is practical because we opened . . . my Guru Mahārāja opened a branch in Burma in an apartment. So that Gaurāṅga who was my servant in family life, he was there. He said like this, that "When I fry purī , the ghee smell is there, so many people will come from other apartments, (whispers) 'Oh, what you are cooking? What you are cooking?' " And the naphi , they relish it in feast. So it is a question of taste. That's the ultimate. I remember as a child in Hong Kong, in the village they would keep big glass jars with snakes, they would put the snakes in jars. And after they were many times soaking in liquid, then they would eat it. Pickled snakes. Snake. Yes, keep it in a jar in liquid. They put in the jar alive? No, they catch it, kill it, put it in the jar. It's like a pickle. They pickle it. And when they want to eat it, they take. So there is poison in the mouth, they cut it? They cut off the head. Flesh. Snake they eat. Even in India there is a class, they eat snake . . . (indistinct) . . . Chinese, they eat. They are Chinese? Yes. Hong Kong. They eat anything. So many abominable things. Someone was telling me in Mexico they have a sandwich called tortilla. It has live cockroaches. And as they're eating, the cockroaches are running to get out of the sandwich, and they are pushing them back in and eating it. In Africa also they eat live bugs. Cockroaches, dead or alive, anything. Once when we were in Zambia, there was this one African who was cleaning around the house, his name was David. He was about twenty years old. So we swept up his room because it was so filthy—I was there at the time. And there were all these cockroaches in a pile, and we were about to throw them out and he said, "What? You're throwing them out? You mean you're not going to eat them?" (laughter) Even . . . (indistinct) . . . there was one big, big professor we met in the college . . . It's hard to understand that prasādam is . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Not only the Africans, but this big, big professor, she is advocating that people should eat the bugs because they are good protein. She is experimenting different bugs to eat—the worm, the cockroach, the beetle—and she's making a big study, being paid money, how to feed people by eating insects. *They're already doing that. In France, you can buy cans of chocolate*-coated ants. Grasshoppers too. Grasshoppers, frog's legs, bumblebees, fried bumblebees you can get. The French eat the most abominable foodstuff. The English think that way, anyway. They all do. Huh? The English think the French eat abominable foods. This is the modes of nature, Śrīla Prabhupāda, acting. Kadarya bhakṣaṇa . It's difficult to imagine what kind of fate we would have had if you hadn't come and started this movement. Everything is so scientific. We've seen practically that as people take up this chanting, that gradually they lose their taste for every other kind of eating. It's a fact. (devotees offer obeisances and prepare to leave) (pause) I should inform Kīrtanānanda Swami about some of these ideas? Yes, if you can arrange with the butcher. One thing, the other day they were saying that sometimes when they have this skim milk, and there's some excess after they've fed it to the cows, they throw it away, they use it for fertilizer. Should they do that? Is that all right to use that? No. Oh, no. We can use it. The skim milk, after they've . . . What is that? Explain. They have some skim milk. So when they've finished giving it to the devotees and they've finished giving it to the cows, then if there's any extra, they throw it away. How give it to the cows? They feed it to the cows. They eat? They drink it. They put it in their feed, whatever. But then if there's any extra, they throw it away, they put on the . . . mix it with fertilizer or whatever for the land. It should not be given to the cows. It should be kept, and when it is broken, you get the chānā . Curd, is it? It should be made into curd and yogurt, things like that. Yes, not yogurt; chānā , what you call, curd? Like cheese, isn't it? Cheese, yes? But it should not be thrown. From cheese you can make so many preparations. I'll mention it to Kulādri then. Yes. You mentioned also about the whey that you get. Everything should be utilized. Instead of drinking water, you can drink whey. It is very good for digesting. Whey, put little salt and black pepper, it is good digestant. You can avoid water, drink whey. You can use it for cāpāṭi . Making dough? Cāpāṭi , just like you dip the cāpāṭi in ḍāl , you can dip whey. You can save ḍāl preparing expenditure. Nothing of milk product can be wasted. You should learn it. Yes. That's what I thought. That's why I was asking. Up to the last drop, it can be utilized. Everything. Skim milk should not be given to the calves? The calves should get? They don't require it. They don't require it. The cow is especially meant for the human being. They can utilize in so many ways, and they should give protection, such an important animal. This is human being. (end) Conversation A -- June 29, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA Now what we've been doing with the dead cows is burying them. There's no . . . everything's wasted. Śrīla Prabhupāda is proposing that why not the butcher take, we give free, he simply returns us the skin of the cow, and with the cowhide we properly tan it, we can make mṛdaṅga heads for the khol , and shoes, straps, whatever may be needed. The idea being that in the Western countries especially, people are accustomed to eating animals, animal flesh. So we have no objection. Beef, especially beef. Especially cows and beef. So we have no objection, but they should at least wait until it dies naturally. What is the harm? They still get the same thing, and one devotee, Kīrtanānanda, I think, was saying that when they slaughter an animal even in the slaughterhouse, it has to sit some time, some number of days before they distribute it. So I proposed that the Westerners, they consider that this is superstitious, this protection of the cow. Prabhupāda said, "Why superstitious?" The cow is providing milk. Every child knows that he's getting milk from the cow; the cow is mother. So why in the old age we should slaughter mother? Is this a good argument that like, for example, they say in India how so many people are starving, why don't they eat the cows? So Prabhupāda proposed that "So if you're starving, does it mean that you eat your mother and father?" If you want to eat, let the father and mother die, then eat. (laughter) Who has objection? It's so reasonable. It's so reasonable. At least, Prabhupāda says, for the saner section, they will accept. The thing is, people are mad after meat. Madman . . . But they still get it. But he'll get meat. But then their argument is that if we don't have big, big slaughterhouses, then there won't be enough supply. No why should . . .? After all, the animal is going to die. It is not for . . . he's permanently. Why should you kill? But they kill the animal first in the slaughterhouse and then do whatever they have to do. But we are killing when they are young, when their meat is fresh. When the body is old, the meat is . . . That you have to change. Fresh or dead, you're eating flesh, that's all. You wait till the death. But the old flesh is not . . . Anyway, you do not . . . you do whatever you like. So at least you can take free of charges a dead cow from us, and you can give us only the skin, and you eat. This should be the system. Yes. It's so reasonable. We don't want anything from you; you take it, the whole flesh. You take free. You simply give us the skin; we can utilize it. Even if people would do this, it would be such an advancement. Oh, yes. Because a class of men will demand to eat the flesh. You cannot stop it. So we are giving free: you eat. And from economic point of view, we require the skin for our mṛdaṅga making. So give us the skin. That's all. Prabhupāda says the butcher, even, he can sell the meat cheaply, make profit. He's getting it free of charge. Maybe some time in the future this could happen when Kṛṣṇa consciousness becomes very powerful influence in the country, but unless we could actually close the slaughterhouse . . . No, but now by imploring, we are requesting him that "You can take this cow and sell in your shop, butcher shop; you give us the skin. And you can tell the customer that it is as good, it is cheaper. So whatever money you get, that is your profit. You haven't got to invest anything." Do you propose that we should do this now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (laughs) No, no, this is . . . think over. Yes, the proposition is very good, that's a fact. First of all, you try one butcher, that "Why not make this advantage?" How does he react, see. Yes, that he will not pay anything . . . He's not going to pay us. Simply take it and sell it. They sell meat . . . for one pound of meat, they can get sometimes two dollars, three dollars, four dollars. So much money, big cow. But the government has inspectors, a team of inspectors. No meat can be sold unless it is inspected, and then they want to examine the condition. So let them inspect. What is the wrong there? It should be open. If the inspection, there is nothing wrong, then they can do this business. Generally, though, their inspection is when the animal is alive, they check to see that he has no disease. Then they can be killed. But if an animal dies naturally, then generally it is to be supposed that it dies from some malfunction within the body, that there may be some diseases or whatever. So then . . . That is artificial. They have so many rules. But that is their rules and regulations they have. They'll change. When they, by chemical analysis, they don't find any fault, then they can change. They have no substance. From economic point of view, why this body should be wasted? Let it be utilized. Those that are eating, let them eat. And economic point of view, we save the skin. We require it for our purpose. That is the idea. After all, we require the skin for our khol making. And for the farm straps? Shoes, slippers, so many things. I think Kīrtanānanda Swami has done that with some of the cows. They have taken the hide for making the straps and the leather . . . They're not doing it now, though. But we should not do it ourselves. Yes, that's for the mucis. That is not our business. Give it to the butcher. He will get the skin and give it to us. Yes. Not that everything we have to do. No. That will deteriorate. Those who are doing, let it be done by them. It seems like it will be a long time before we can implement something like that. I am proposing; *think over. Because it is a fact that in spite our vigorous propaganda, we cannot stop meat*-eating. That is not possible. People will eat. So those who are eating, let us make some arrangement that "You take it free of charges." From economic point of view, they get it free. They can make good profit. And we are interested with the skin. So why not make some arrangement? It is practical. That's very good. Instead of the thing being wasted for nothing, let us devise some means, that "You are eating, you can eat." And we want the skin, let us give it. What is the wrong there? Perfect economics. Yes. We require the skin, that's a fact. And you want to eat, all right, eat. Could such a thing be done in India today also? No, why it will be done? Everywhere it should be done. Who does not eat meat? That is the . . . first of all, you try this. From economic point of view, why one thing should be wasted? Practical preaching. *We can't stop meat*-eating, but we can stop the unnecessary slaughter of animals. Yes. That would be a great step forward. *So our business is to stop slaughter. Meat*-eating we cannot stop. Certain persons, they must eat. They are fourth-class and then fifth-class men. There are four classifications— brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra and caṇḍāla . Caṇḍālas , they will remain, and they are eating. So let them eat meat. That is the system in India still. It is not that in India nobody's eating meat. The cobbler class, they eat; the caṇḍāla class, they eat. Even cows, cow flesh. Dead. This cow killing has been introduced by these Britishers. Christian philosophy. Christians. I saw in Juhu the Christians. Now even they're exporting beef from India. Yes. They can do anything, take the dead cows. I do not know if there is any chemical composition change. They are eating so many dead animals. Take for fish. The fish is never killed alive, because as soon as you take it out from water, it is dead, after few minutes. And they don't consider if it's a young fish or an old fish. If that was the system, people will not get sick. They will not get sick from eating old animals. No, no. This is all wrong conception. They will say . . . simply think the taste there is too tough, the skin may be older. They are eating so many rotten things. Yes. And they are burning it, cooking it. Lobster, it is simply pus. They eat. I've seen it. From whiteness it has become yellow, puslike. They eat it, what is called that soup? Lobster soup? Clam chowder. So many things. But they like very much that lobster soup. In the plane, one Englishman was doing, "What is this? I asked after lobster soup." In England? Oysters? No, lobsters. With the big pinchers. They have big, long feelers. They get the lobsters sometimes alive, and they throw them in boiling water, and they can hear them screaming. But now they're speculating whether it's actually the lobsters screaming because it's being boiled alive or whether it's just air that's coming out from its body and making a squeaking noise. No, that is, apart from that, they import lobster from India, Cochin. They are exporting lobster alive. I have seen. The same ship, they load it with lobster, fatty, and black creeper, and cashew, they exported. The big, big business firms for exporting. So these lobster, although they are kept in ice and so on, so on, they become decomposed. I've seen in the port, that Commonwealth Pier. There is store of lobster, and the lobster has become yellow and almost melted by decomposing. They are selling that. When it starts to fall apart, that's when they consider it's the best. Hmm? When it starts to fall apart, that's when they think it's the best. I think I mentioned before, in England, the gentry, the British gentry, when they used to go hunting, shooting pheasants and partridges, afterwards they would get the dead birds and hang them in a shed outside, and then after some days, when all the skin and the feathers were literally falling off, that's when they would eat it. That's when it was considered rich. There are so many kadarya things. In Burma, they have got a system, Burmese family. In the door, there is a pot, a big pot. So whatever animal dies, put it there and cover it. So in this way, after some years, they're decomposed, and it becomes liquid, and then it is so decomposed that if you open it, even three miles they smell. So that is mature. Then they take out the liquid and keep it in bottle. That is called naphi . And they stock it, and when there is some feast at home they'll give little that naphi and they'll relish it. Barbers? Burma. Burma. That's the most . . . And when you fry lucī , all the other tenants will come, "What you are cooking?" This is practical because we opened . . . my Guru Mahārāja opened a branch in Burma in an apartment. So that Gaurāṅga who was my servant in family life, he was there. He said like this, that "When I fry purī , the ghee smell is there, so many people will come from other apartments, (whispers) 'Oh, what you are cooking? What you are cooking?' " And the naphi , they relish it in feast. So it is a question of taste. That's the ultimate. I remember as a child in Hong Kong, in the village they would keep big glass jars with snakes, they would put the snakes in jars. And after they were many times soaking in liquid, then they would eat it. Pickled snakes. Snake. Yes, keep it in a jar in liquid. They put in the jar alive? No, they catch it, kill it, put it in the jar. It's like a pickle. They pickle it. And when they want to eat it, they take. So there is poison in the mouth, they cut it? They cut off the head. Flesh. Snake they eat. Even in India there is a class, they eat snake . . . (indistinct) . . . Chinese, they eat. They are Chinese? Yes. Hong Kong. They eat anything. So many abominable things. Someone was telling me in Mexico they have a sandwich called tortilla. It has live cockroaches. And as they're eating, the cockroaches are running to get out of the sandwich, and they are pushing them back in and eating it. In Africa also they eat live bugs. Cockroaches, dead or alive, anything. Once when we were in Zambia, there was this one African who was cleaning around the house, his name was David. He was about twenty years old. So we swept up his room because it was so filthy—I was there at the time. And there were all these cockroaches in a pile, and we were about to throw them out and he said, "What? You're throwing them out? You mean you're not going to eat them?" (laughter) Even . . . (indistinct) . . . there was one big, big professor we met in the college . . . It's hard to understand that prasādam is . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Not only the Africans, but this big, big professor, she is advocating that people should eat the bugs because they are good protein. She is experimenting different bugs to eat—the worm, the cockroach, the beetle—and she's making a big study, being paid money, how to feed people by eating insects. *They're already doing that. In France, you can buy cans of chocolate*-coated ants. Grasshoppers too. Grasshoppers, frog's legs, bumblebees, fried bumblebees you can get. The French eat the most abominable foodstuff. The English think that way, anyway. They all do. Huh? The English think the French eat abominable foods. This is the modes of nature, Śrīla Prabhupāda, acting. Kadarya bhakṣaṇa . It's difficult to imagine what kind of fate we would have had if you hadn't come and started this movement. Everything is so scientific. We've seen practically that as people take up this chanting, that gradually they lose their taste for every other kind of eating. It's a fact. (devotees offer obeisances and prepare to leave) (pause) I should inform Kīrtanānanda Swami about some of these ideas? Yes, if you can arrange with the butcher. One thing, the other day they were saying that sometimes when they have this skim milk, and there's some excess after they've fed it to the cows, they throw it away, they use it for fertilizer. Should they do that? Is that all right to use that? No. Oh, no. We can use it. The skim milk, after they've . . . What is that? Explain. They have some skim milk. So when they've finished giving it to the devotees and they've finished giving it to the cows, then if there's any extra, they throw it away. How give it to the cows? They feed it to the cows. They eat? They drink it. They put it in their feed, whatever. But then if there's any extra, they throw it away, they put on the . . . mix it with fertilizer or whatever for the land. It should not be given to the cows. It should be kept, and when it is broken, you get the chānā . Curd, is it? It should be made into curd and yogurt, things like that. Yes, not yogurt; chānā , what you call, curd? Like cheese, isn't it? Cheese, yes? But it should not be thrown. From cheese you can make so many preparations. I'll mention it to Kulādri then. Yes. You mentioned also about the whey that you get. Everything should be utilized. Instead of drinking water, you can drink whey. It is very good for digesting. Whey, put little salt and black pepper, it is good digestant. You can avoid water, drink whey. You can use it for cāpāṭi . Making dough? Cāpāṭi , just like you dip the cāpāṭi in ḍāl , you can dip whey. You can save ḍāl preparing expenditure. Nothing of milk product can be wasted. You should learn it. Yes. That's what I thought. That's why I was asking. Up to the last drop, it can be utilized. Everything. Skim milk should not be given to the calves? The calves should get? They don't require it. They don't require it. The cow is especially meant for the human being. They can utilize in so many ways, and they should give protection, such an important animal. This is human being. (end) Conversation A -- June 30, 1976, Wheeling WV *(Mike Darby was a long*-time admirer of Prabhupāda and was well-informed about Kṛṣṇa consciousness) . . . don't need education, then, to . . . Yes. We are coming from Detroit? Detroit, Toronto. *There are so many factories for four*-wheel vehicles, and there is no factory to educate man to the right path. Perhaps . . . this is our little attempt, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to educate to the right path. We are not getting any help, either from the authority . . . in our own way, as far as possible, we are doing. When people will be educated they will be able to understand who is guru , who is not guru . We can say, but who is going to accept? We say always that they are all rascals, but who will accept our statement? And the state, there had been a department to see what is the qualification of guru , then immediately they would have taken steps. Just like in Kṛṣṇa's time one man falsely presented himself as God, immediately his head was cut off. Pauṇḍraka. So the state must be very strong to punish the miscreant. But there is no such state. This man, Sun Myung Moon, claims to be the Messiaḥ, the Jesus Christ revived. *So it is the duty of the Christians. But they are also . . . what can I say? They are passing resolution according to the time, changing the instruction of Bible. How they can be fixed*-up? Our standard is Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . We accept guru as representative of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he speaks what Kṛṣṇa has spoken, then he is guru . Similarly in Christianity, if they actually take care that whether one is speaking according to the Ten Commandments, if he is living according to the rules and regulations of the Ten Commandments, then he is guru . Now why people accept them? Because they are in ignorance; they do not know who is real and who is fake. But the standard is there. Take for example in the Bible, it is said: "Thou shall not kill." But everyone is killing. Killing is the business of the Christians. They are maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. We are maintaining cows here, and there are others, they are maintaining cows for slaughtering. Why? In these Commandments it is clearly said that "Thou shall not kill." How they will detect? If they are violating themselves the law one, how they will punish the lawbreaker? "Physician, heal thyself." The physician himself is diseased, and he's going to treat other patients. So they all just continue in a circle to break their own laws. What can be done? Would it help if someone took the Bible and wrote a Vaiṣṇava purport, or tried to simplify it so that people could understand it? The language is difficult for the common man now to understand. *That we are spreading. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that you act what Kṛṣṇa, or God, says, that's all. In our Bhagavad*-gītā the guru's description is there, who is guru . Read the Fourth Chapter. Our this all literature, simply guru and disciple: one is instructing, and one is hearing. From 4.1? *"The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun*-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu, in turn, instructed it to Ikṣvāku." *So Kṛṣṇa instructed first to the sun-god. Sun*-god instructed his son, Manu; he instructed his son, Ikṣvāku. In this way things are coming. Then read second verse. "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost." The succession was broken. So similarly, Christ says something. So if that commandment is received by succession, then it goes nicely. But if you break it according to your necessity, then where is the authority? None. No use if you have the rules there, the law is there, to be passed, and someone forgets them. This is sinful. No, they are passing resolution. Suppose there is a law of the state, ordinary, say: "Keep to the right," and in this village all members, they assemble together and pass a resolution that, "No, keep to the left." Will it be accepted? Even they pass resolution, the state will not accept it. Unless it is . . . of course, there should be no change. By anything spoken by God or His son or His representative, that cannot be changed. It is not that Christ said two thousand years ago, "Thou shall not kill," now it can be changed. That is rascaldom. They are doing that. If you do that, then, as it is said here, then it becomes lost. Then there is no meaning. If we take the instruction of God and His representative as temporary, then he is not representative, He is not God. Whatever is spoken by God and His representative, that is eternal. You cannot change by your whims. But that is going on. We . . . I do not wish to discuss very much, but that is actually going on. As people they, by votes in the Parliament, they pass any nonsense thing, so they want to do that in the case of Bible also. Then where is the authority of Bible? If Christ says that, "Thou shall not kill," and if people, say ten thousand people in a meeting, pass resolution, "No, this is wrong," then where is the authority of Bible? Then you become authority. I see. Then in the Bible, the beginning of it says that God created the heaven and the earth, and yet they say, give the description in Genesis, as the way God created the heaven and the earth. Does this not conform with Brahmā's work? *Yes. God has created everything. Just like father, son and the mother. Mother gives birth to the son when the mother is impregnated by the father. This is the law, everyone knows. Now you can see that so many trees are coming from earth. Is it not? Trees and plants and grass. And we eat them, we live. Therefore the earth is mother, and the children are so many. The plants are about two million types of plants. Jalajā nava lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa*-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). Then there are insects, reptiles, then beasts, then man. In this way there are so many living entities. The living entities are produced from the earth. The earth is the mother and the living entities are the sons. Then where is the father? This simple thing, why do they not inquire, "Who is the father?" Kṛṣṇa? *Yes, Kṛṣṇa, God, or whatever you speak, there must be father. You cannot say that these children, the offsprings, are coming automatically. Then you are a fool if you say like that. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this verse: Fourteenth Chapter. Yeah, I've got it. *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." So how can I deny God? How can you deny your father? If you say: "I've not seen my father," that does not mean that you have no father. Ask your mother, she will reply, "Yes, you have your father." So the argument is forwarded that, "We cannot see God, therefore there is no God." This rascal argument is being forwarded. Because you are speaking, you are existing, there must be father. That is conclusion. Without father, there would have been no possibility of your existence. You are speaking, talking so loudly, "There is no God." This is going on. "Because I do not see God, therefore there is no God." So many people call themselves Christians, they still try to deny God. *Not only Christians, the whole world is now like that. Religion has become a subject matter of laughing. If one is God conscious, religious, he is considered fool number one, not very much advanced. Especially the scientists, the rascal scientists. And they'll bluff you in so many ways that, "Life is produced from chemical." And when we challenge them that, "You make a little egg with chemicals and put it in the incubator and let life come," what will be the answer? The so*-called scientist who says that life is made by combination of chemicals? Anyone can see the composition of egg—a little white and yellow substance. There are many chemicals, they are all white, and there are many chemicals yellow also. Combine together and put it in the incubator and see whether chicken is coming or not. And still they will assert, write big, big books that, "Life is coming out of chemicals." And people are accepting this bluff. So it is very precarious condition of the present world. People want to be bluffed, and there are many bluffers. And they are satisfied that, "I am bluffed by a big bluffer." That's all. This is going on. These scientists speak about making life with chemicals, yet none of them have even been able to begin their experiments. They can . . . I have therefore said: "Make a small egg, then talk of big, big things." They can make one chemical which leaves the life. But not more. Not only that. If you are a sane man, you analyze your body. Now find out where is life. Beginning analysis is the breathing. You take . . . now a man is dead. Somebody says: "Now, because his breathing is stopped, therefore he is dead." So what is this breathing? It is simply a little air. So put some machine, and the air may come and go and give him life. Take anything, breathing, then you take blood, then you take skin, then you take muscle, then you take bone, then take your stool, urine, find out life. Is it possible? Then why do you say that life is combination of chemical? You take this blood, urine and stool, what is called, bone and muscle and air, what is combination, and produce another man. So they are talking this nonsense, and nonsense people are accepting. And they are being paid for, high salary, for talking this nonsense at the cost of the taxpayer. They get big profit, and no one else does. And they are going to the moon planet, Mars planet, and bringing some dust. They try to keep the people busy by showing them other planets. Yes. But busy means they can show all these bluff busy program to the rascals, not to the sane man. Could you tell us a little about your spiritual master's life? I've never heard anything. This is spiritual master—one who is representative of God. And one who speaks what God has said, then he's spiritual master. But I have never heard anything of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta, and I wondered if you would tell me a little bit about him, if you would. What shall I say? He was my spiritual master, and whatever he taught, we are speaking, that's all. We don't talk any nonsense. Then that's all I have to ask you. Thank you for allowing me your time. Hare Kṛṣṇa. I've waited very long to see you. Thank you for your coming. (end) Conversation A -- June 30, 1976, Wheeling WV *(Mike Darby was a long*-time admirer of Prabhupāda and was well-informed about Kṛṣṇa consciousness) . . . don't need education, then, to . . . Yes. We are coming from Detroit? Detroit, Toronto. *There are so many factories for four*-wheel vehicles, and there is no factory to educate man to the right path. Perhaps . . . this is our little attempt, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to educate to the right path. We are not getting any help, either from the authority . . . in our own way, as far as possible, we are doing. When people will be educated they will be able to understand who is guru , who is not guru . We can say, but who is going to accept? We say always that they are all rascals, but who will accept our statement? And the state, there had been a department to see what is the qualification of guru , then immediately they would have taken steps. Just like in Kṛṣṇa's time one man falsely presented himself as God, immediately his head was cut off. Pauṇḍraka. So the state must be very strong to punish the miscreant. But there is no such state. This man, Sun Myung Moon, claims to be the Messiaḥ, the Jesus Christ revived. *So it is the duty of the Christians. But they are also . . . what can I say? They are passing resolution according to the time, changing the instruction of Bible. How they can be fixed*-up? Our standard is Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . We accept guru as representative of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he speaks what Kṛṣṇa has spoken, then he is guru . Similarly in Christianity, if they actually take care that whether one is speaking according to the Ten Commandments, if he is living according to the rules and regulations of the Ten Commandments, then he is guru . Now why people accept them? Because they are in ignorance; they do not know who is real and who is fake. But the standard is there. Take for example in the Bible, it is said: "Thou shall not kill." But everyone is killing. Killing is the business of the Christians. They are maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. We are maintaining cows here, and there are others, they are maintaining cows for slaughtering. Why? In these Commandments it is clearly said that "Thou shall not kill." How they will detect? If they are violating themselves the law one, how they will punish the lawbreaker? "Physician, heal thyself." The physician himself is diseased, and he's going to treat other patients. So they all just continue in a circle to break their own laws. What can be done? Would it help if someone took the Bible and wrote a Vaiṣṇava purport, or tried to simplify it so that people could understand it? The language is difficult for the common man now to understand. *That we are spreading. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that you act what Kṛṣṇa, or God, says, that's all. In our Bhagavad*-gītā the guru's description is there, who is guru . Read the Fourth Chapter. Our this all literature, simply guru and disciple: one is instructing, and one is hearing. From 4.1? *"The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun*-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu, in turn, instructed it to Ikṣvāku." *So Kṛṣṇa instructed first to the sun-god. Sun*-god instructed his son, Manu; he instructed his son, Ikṣvāku. In this way things are coming. Then read second verse. "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost." The succession was broken. So similarly, Christ says something. So if that commandment is received by succession, then it goes nicely. But if you break it according to your necessity, then where is the authority? None. No use if you have the rules there, the law is there, to be passed, and someone forgets them. This is sinful. No, they are passing resolution. Suppose there is a law of the state, ordinary, say: "Keep to the right," and in this village all members, they assemble together and pass a resolution that, "No, keep to the left." Will it be accepted? Even they pass resolution, the state will not accept it. Unless it is . . . of course, there should be no change. By anything spoken by God or His son or His representative, that cannot be changed. It is not that Christ said two thousand years ago, "Thou shall not kill," now it can be changed. That is rascaldom. They are doing that. If you do that, then, as it is said here, then it becomes lost. Then there is no meaning. If we take the instruction of God and His representative as temporary, then he is not representative, He is not God. Whatever is spoken by God and His representative, that is eternal. You cannot change by your whims. But that is going on. We . . . I do not wish to discuss very much, but that is actually going on. As people they, by votes in the Parliament, they pass any nonsense thing, so they want to do that in the case of Bible also. Then where is the authority of Bible? If Christ says that, "Thou shall not kill," and if people, say ten thousand people in a meeting, pass resolution, "No, this is wrong," then where is the authority of Bible? Then you become authority. I see. Then in the Bible, the beginning of it says that God created the heaven and the earth, and yet they say, give the description in Genesis, as the way God created the heaven and the earth. Does this not conform with Brahmā's work? *Yes. God has created everything. Just like father, son and the mother. Mother gives birth to the son when the mother is impregnated by the father. This is the law, everyone knows. Now you can see that so many trees are coming from earth. Is it not? Trees and plants and grass. And we eat them, we live. Therefore the earth is mother, and the children are so many. The plants are about two million types of plants. Jalajā nava lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa*-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). Then there are insects, reptiles, then beasts, then man. In this way there are so many living entities. The living entities are produced from the earth. The earth is the mother and the living entities are the sons. Then where is the father? This simple thing, why do they not inquire, "Who is the father?" Kṛṣṇa? *Yes, Kṛṣṇa, God, or whatever you speak, there must be father. You cannot say that these children, the offsprings, are coming automatically. Then you are a fool if you say like that. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this verse: Fourteenth Chapter. Yeah, I've got it. *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." So how can I deny God? How can you deny your father? If you say: "I've not seen my father," that does not mean that you have no father. Ask your mother, she will reply, "Yes, you have your father." So the argument is forwarded that, "We cannot see God, therefore there is no God." This rascal argument is being forwarded. Because you are speaking, you are existing, there must be father. That is conclusion. Without father, there would have been no possibility of your existence. You are speaking, talking so loudly, "There is no God." This is going on. "Because I do not see God, therefore there is no God." So many people call themselves Christians, they still try to deny God. *Not only Christians, the whole world is now like that. Religion has become a subject matter of laughing. If one is God conscious, religious, he is considered fool number one, not very much advanced. Especially the scientists, the rascal scientists. And they'll bluff you in so many ways that, "Life is produced from chemical." And when we challenge them that, "You make a little egg with chemicals and put it in the incubator and let life come," what will be the answer? The so*-called scientist who says that life is made by combination of chemicals? Anyone can see the composition of egg—a little white and yellow substance. There are many chemicals, they are all white, and there are many chemicals yellow also. Combine together and put it in the incubator and see whether chicken is coming or not. And still they will assert, write big, big books that, "Life is coming out of chemicals." And people are accepting this bluff. So it is very precarious condition of the present world. People want to be bluffed, and there are many bluffers. And they are satisfied that, "I am bluffed by a big bluffer." That's all. This is going on. These scientists speak about making life with chemicals, yet none of them have even been able to begin their experiments. They can . . . I have therefore said: "Make a small egg, then talk of big, big things." They can make one chemical which leaves the life. But not more. Not only that. If you are a sane man, you analyze your body. Now find out where is life. Beginning analysis is the breathing. You take . . . now a man is dead. Somebody says: "Now, because his breathing is stopped, therefore he is dead." So what is this breathing? It is simply a little air. So put some machine, and the air may come and go and give him life. Take anything, breathing, then you take blood, then you take skin, then you take muscle, then you take bone, then take your stool, urine, find out life. Is it possible? Then why do you say that life is combination of chemical? You take this blood, urine and stool, what is called, bone and muscle and air, what is combination, and produce another man. So they are talking this nonsense, and nonsense people are accepting. And they are being paid for, high salary, for talking this nonsense at the cost of the taxpayer. They get big profit, and no one else does. And they are going to the moon planet, Mars planet, and bringing some dust. They try to keep the people busy by showing them other planets. Yes. But busy means they can show all these bluff busy program to the rascals, not to the sane man. Could you tell us a little about your spiritual master's life? I've never heard anything. This is spiritual master—one who is representative of God. And one who speaks what God has said, then he's spiritual master. But I have never heard anything of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta, and I wondered if you would tell me a little bit about him, if you would. What shall I say? He was my spiritual master, and whatever he taught, we are speaking, that's all. We don't talk any nonsense. Then that's all I have to ask you. Thank you for allowing me your time. Hare Kṛṣṇa. I've waited very long to see you. Thank you for your coming. (end) Conversation A -- July 1, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA His last questions are like this. He's asking about proselytizing in the Western countries, preaching. Is there any hope for preaching? He says Hindu dharma, like this. I think everything is arising because of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement and Your Divine Grace's preaching work. Otherwise, they were all sleeping. Ten years ago, if they'd have asked these questions before you came to the West, they wouldn't even have thought about going to the West. They are only asking that now because they can see in the last ten years we've been so much successful. *They do not know what is bhakti, what is Vedānta. They do not know. Simply aspiring, all after women and money, that's all. First*-class rogues. I know all of them, all first-class rogues, after money and women, beginning from Vivekananda. But they are so popular, if you say openly . . . That's a fact. Satyaṁ brūyāt priyaṁ brūyāt mā brūyāt satyam apriyam (Sanskrit Proverb). "You can speak truth, but don't speak which is unpalatable." But we speak in a different way. And directly we don't speak. People will be angry. They're already fools and rascals. All of the others are trying to make some compromise. That is also bad. How we can make compromise? Here is gold, here is iron. How you can compromise? Can we accept iron as gold? "All right, let us accept." (laughs) Where is the possibility? They don't see that clearly. They are looking at their iron and thinking it's gold. *They are seeing . . . they're tested. I don't make any compromise. All my speaking is also no compromise. Here is guru , here is Kṛṣṇa, here is God, here is Vedānta. Real version they neglect, and they stick to the rascal's version, Śaṅkara's version, Śārīraka*-bhāṣya . All over India, they are reading Śārīraka-bhāṣya . Rāmānujācārya is very well known in India, so why don't they read his commentary? They hate Rāmānujācārya, because he's Vaiṣṇava. Because he doesn't allow them to speculate. *He is very strict. He is a stubborn enemy of Śaṅkarācārya. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas . Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, declare it: māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa ( CC Madhya 6.169). "If you hear the interpretation of Māyāvādīs, then you are doomed. You have no hope for spiritual advancement." This is the statement. Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa . Finished. Your spiritual life is finished. You can write this also, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction is strictly to avoid the so-called Vedāntists. (indistinct background discussion as devotees look for pen) All these impersonalists, they always represent themselves as being big Vedāntists. They don't know anything. That, erm . . . And people, leaders of India, they are thinking, "Where is this Vedāntist?" In foreign countries, what is their position? *Somehow or another, they seem to think that the Vedānta is something better than any of the other śāstra . Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam doesn't seem to be so popular in India as Vedānta or something like that. *It is very popular amongst the Māyāvāda people. You speak also . . . now the so*-called Vedāntists, they are speaking on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , distorting. Akhoyananda . . . Akandananda, Karpatri, the rascals. Because they have no subject matter to speak, they are distorting the meaning of Bhāgavata . (pause) This boy (referring to Mike Darby) appears to be nice, this fat boy. Yes. Kīrtanānanda said he's the only local boy that has taken interest. He's from hereabouts. He said that "I've wanted to see you since a long time." So, keep friendship with. Giving them prasādam ? Yes, he took. They distributed . . . Kīrtanānanda Swami cut up some watermelon, and we distributed it to the guests. (pause) Śrīla Prabhupāda, shall I lock this up? Hmm. (end) Conversation A -- July 1, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA His last questions are like this. He's asking about proselytizing in the Western countries, preaching. Is there any hope for preaching? He says Hindu dharma, like this. I think everything is arising because of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement and Your Divine Grace's preaching work. Otherwise, they were all sleeping. Ten years ago, if they'd have asked these questions before you came to the West, they wouldn't even have thought about going to the West. They are only asking that now because they can see in the last ten years we've been so much successful. *They do not know what is bhakti, what is Vedānta. They do not know. Simply aspiring, all after women and money, that's all. First*-class rogues. I know all of them, all first-class rogues, after money and women, beginning from Vivekananda. But they are so popular, if you say openly . . . That's a fact. Satyaṁ brūyāt priyaṁ brūyāt mā brūyāt satyam apriyam (Sanskrit Proverb). "You can speak truth, but don't speak which is unpalatable." But we speak in a different way. And directly we don't speak. People will be angry. They're already fools and rascals. All of the others are trying to make some compromise. That is also bad. How we can make compromise? Here is gold, here is iron. How you can compromise? Can we accept iron as gold? "All right, let us accept." (laughs) Where is the possibility? They don't see that clearly. They are looking at their iron and thinking it's gold. *They are seeing . . . they're tested. I don't make any compromise. All my speaking is also no compromise. Here is guru , here is Kṛṣṇa, here is God, here is Vedānta. Real version they neglect, and they stick to the rascal's version, Śaṅkara's version, Śārīraka*-bhāṣya . All over India, they are reading Śārīraka-bhāṣya . Rāmānujācārya is very well known in India, so why don't they read his commentary? They hate Rāmānujācārya, because he's Vaiṣṇava. Because he doesn't allow them to speculate. *He is very strict. He is a stubborn enemy of Śaṅkarācārya. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas . Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, declare it: māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa ( CC Madhya 6.169). "If you hear the interpretation of Māyāvādīs, then you are doomed. You have no hope for spiritual advancement." This is the statement. Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa . Finished. Your spiritual life is finished. You can write this also, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction is strictly to avoid the so-called Vedāntists. (indistinct background discussion as devotees look for pen) All these impersonalists, they always represent themselves as being big Vedāntists. They don't know anything. That, erm . . . And people, leaders of India, they are thinking, "Where is this Vedāntist?" In foreign countries, what is their position? *Somehow or another, they seem to think that the Vedānta is something better than any of the other śāstra . Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam doesn't seem to be so popular in India as Vedānta or something like that. *It is very popular amongst the Māyāvāda people. You speak also . . . now the so*-called Vedāntists, they are speaking on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , distorting. Akhoyananda . . . Akandananda, Karpatri, the rascals. Because they have no subject matter to speak, they are distorting the meaning of Bhāgavata . (pause) This boy (referring to Mike Darby) appears to be nice, this fat boy. Yes. Kīrtanānanda said he's the only local boy that has taken interest. He's from hereabouts. He said that "I've wanted to see you since a long time." So, keep friendship with. Giving them prasādam ? Yes, he took. They distributed . . . Kīrtanānanda Swami cut up some watermelon, and we distributed it to the guests. (pause) Śrīla Prabhupāda, shall I lock this up? Hmm. (end) Arrival -- July 2, 1976, Washington D.C. (in car from airport) . . . live? Is he finished, or if somewhere he is still living, nobody knows. You are keeping his memorial, but where is the actual person, they do not know. Suppose I have come here, and all of a sudden I go away, keeping my shirt and coat. And if you worship my shirt and coat and do not take care where I have gone, is that very good intelligence? No, Prabhupāda. This is going on. We will worship your shirt and coat, though. Lincoln, if you worship . . . where is Lincoln's temple? In Paris, I saw one park, Napoleon Bonaparte. You have been there? Yes, Paris. They identified "Napoleon is France." France is there, but where is Napoleon? They do not consider like this. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ ( SB 7.5.31). Blind man be happy that Lincoln was here, that's all. Where he is now? Or he's finished. If he's finished, why you are worshiping his shirt and coat? What is the answer? What is their answer? If he's finished, what is the use of worshiping his shirt and coat? They say that what he accomplished, although it may not be the final answer, it was a step forward, and therefore he should be worshiped. *Then his worship must be . . . that means after furnishing he is also finished? That is ignorance. That is not the fact. If he's finished, then what was the purpose of furnishing? There are so many questions in this connection, but they cannot understand. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). This is ignorance. This kind of civilization is civilization of darkness. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. It looks like the devotees are the only people who are enlightened in this dark world. By your mercy, only the devotees can actually see anything properly and understand the condition. In Russia, that Kruschev, he was . . . now, where he has gone, nobody knows. Finished. Nobody knows. They retired him. They gave him a small place just outside Moscow. You know that? Yes, there was a story about five years after he got kicked out of office. He was just doing nothing, living by himself. And what he has done? (laughter) Nothing, and what he has done? They want to worship Kṛṣṇa, but they don't know how. *They don't want to worship anyone. They want to worship their senses, that's all. Sense gratification. What is dictated by the senses, they agree, that's all. Servant of the senses. In the material world nobody worships nobody. Everyone serves his own senses, "I like it." That's all. There is a Bengali song, cokhe yadi lage bhalo keno dekhbo na "If it satisfies my eyes, why shall I not see? I shall see." This is the sum*-substance of . . . cokhe yadi lage bhalo keno dekhbo na. Everyone wants sense gratification, to be servant of the senses. If the senses want "Do this," he will do it. And our Movement is that we shall not hear the dictation of the senses, we shall do what Kṛṣṇa says. That is just opposite. So long I am carrying out the orders of the senses, then I am involved in this material birth, death, transmigration. Today I am running on this nice car. Next I can stand up here as a tree. Who can check it? After death you are completely under the . . . your life also completely under the laws of nature. So there is no discussion, no understanding, no knowledge about this. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to change our body. What kind of body we are going to get, nobody knows. "This life is everything. This body is everything." Very risky. They do not inquire even wherefrom this body has come. They are also coming. They are also living. They are also eating. The trees, they are also eating water. Our distributors were in the airport not long ago, and they distributed a book to a man who has just recently written a book called The Fourth Kingdom . And he stopped off to visit our temple and talk with us, because he was impressed with the devotees and the literature, and he would like to come and speak to you. You have arranged some engagement? *Yes. If it's all right with you, he'll come. He's very nice, but he has some mixed*-up ideas. *Everyone has mixed*-up ideas because nobody is properly trained up. Some ideas they have got, inquiries they have got. But unless one comes to the right person, he cannot be enlightened. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore one must approach the proper guru . Everyone has accepted the wrong authority. Eh? Everyone has accepted the wrong authority. Yes. Because he's misled by sense gratification, so even he approaches a guru , if the guru cannot satisfy his senses, he doesn't like. Because he's under the subjugation of senses, he expects that guru also will satisfy his senses, then he is guru . If guru says something against his sense gratification, "Ah, he is not guru ." (laughs) Guru also must be a person who can satisfy your senses. The disease is sense gratification. After he took those books home and he read them, he wrote us a letter, and he said he thought you were very intelligent man and would like to speak to you. So we'll see. Maybe he can hear. Yes, we are speaking something not of this world, but we are pointing out the defects of this world. "This world" means the world of sense gratification. The karmīs , they say: "What is the matter with sense gratification?" They say they like sense gratification; it's very good. Very good, but if you can continue it. But you rascal, you cannot continue it. "Very good, I am now president," but why you are kicked out? Huh? Now, what about the Nixon? Very good, he was president, now he's kicked out, what is his position? He doesn't think that, that "I may be kicked out from my position at any moment. So what is the value of my sense gratification?" He was gratifying his senses. As he liked, he was doing. But now he's kicked out, what he can do now? Why does he not think that? Take the, I mean, living example. Who wants to be kicked out from the presidency? But now he's kicked out. He's living also. He's not in that position. That Kruschev, he's not in that position. Why does he not think that, "Any moment I'll be kicked out." And what is that enforcement that kicks out? Why don't they think like that, Prabhupāda? That is their foolishness. That's due to too much sinful activity? Too much sinful activity, that they can't think that there's some divine influence? *Yes. There is no education. Fools. They're childish. A child is playing, he's enjoying, but he does not know that he has to take education, he has to grow up, he'll become a young man. Sometimes, if he's not educated, he'll suffer. He doesn't know. He's playing, that's all. The father says: "My dear child, you read." "No, I like playing." "All right." Similarly, they are childish, foolish, without any responsibility. The animals are doing like that. Ṛṣabhadeva says: "No, no, no. This life is not for this purpose." Nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). Simply for sense gratification so much trouble, like hogs and dogs—this is not life. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvam . Just practice austerity to purify your existence. Your existence is not purified. You are put in a position. If you like, that's all right. But because you are not in a purified position, you'll be kicked out at any moment. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). You are very proud to have your position, but nature will kick you out at any moment. But you cannot do anything. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate. He's foolish. He's thinking, "I have everything. I can remain in this presidential position as I like." That is not the position. That is foolishness; that is childish. He does not know what is his position. But he wants position. That means there is a good position for him, but not here. That he does not know. Everyone is hankering after good position, but where is that good position, that he does not know. Everyone is hankering after water, but he is going after water in the desert. That is animalism. The animal runs after the water in the desert, and a human being, he knows, "No, this is not water; this is reflection." The water is there, that's a fact, but not here. That is human . . . it is reflection of water. Reflection water means the water is there, but it is not here. Similarly, good position is there, but not here. Here it is simply a reflection of that position. That he does not understand. Where is the actual water, wherefrom the reflection comes, that he does not know. Falsely thinking that, "Here is everything." Very big, big scientists, they are thinking only on this planet there is life, and all planets are vacant. Too lazy, late. They all think like that, Prabhupāda. They are such rascals. They have no common sense that this is also one of the planets, it is filled up with life and everything, and why the other planets should be vacant? If there is rock and sand, then why not other things? Here is also rock and sand and other things also. But these rascals, they think there is simply rock and sand, nothing else. And they are misleading. What is the reason? This planet is filled up with life, and other planets vacant. All right, they can go and colonize there. They say it is not possible. Then why do you go there, spend money? This is going on. Prabhupāda, these . . . nobody wants to do the wrong thing. Nobody wants to go up . . . They are doing wrong thing every moment. Yes, but I mean no one works to do the wrong thing; they work to do the right thing. But they'll not take the right thing. If you say the right thing, they will come to beat you with shoes, run away. They don't have any idea what the right thing is. Everything they're doing is wrong. They want right thing, but they have no idea of right thing. And if you say the right thing, they will not accept it. This is their disease. That is more than māyā ; that is their heart. That is called māyā . That is māyā . Yes. They are suffering, and if you give him the remedy that he'll not have to suffer, he'll not take it. But that rejection, that is their choice of the heart, isn't it? I mean, they have a choice to make? No, no. That is the same thing. Just the child is playing, but if you say: "My dear child, you please take education, otherwise you'll suffer," "Oh, I don't . . ." Child does not like. He wants to play. That is childish, or foolish. He doesn't want to be educated. That is foolishness. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This human life is meant for becoming educated about Brahman. They will not take it. They want to remain animals, eating and sleeping. This animal life, that's all. Eat nicely, sleep nicely, have sex life nicely, defend nicely, that's all. Nicely, according to the standard of the body. Here in America, to have a conveyance nicely like a car like this, but in Indian village, a bullock cart is nicely. So this nicely and that nicely, according to the body. You have got this American body, this is nicely. He has got Indian body, that is nicely. But the feeling of niceness is there and here. We are having sex in a very nice apartment, decorated and so on, so on, and a dog is having sex on the street. But the pleasure of sex life is both the same. But we are thinking this is nice. But that is not the fact. The niceness, the feelings of niceness, is there and here. And so much suffering. *Yes. Simply you have to take so much trouble. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja's instruction. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām (SB 7.6.3). The sense gratification, the standard of sense gratification, is deha-yogena dehinām , according to the body. The pig is eating very nicely stool because he has got a body like that. A human being will not take that. But the pleasure of eating, either stool or rasagullā , the same. You gave the example of a gold pot and an iron pot and a diamond pot. A diamond pot was a demigod, and the gold pot was a human being, and the iron pot the animal. But they are thinking that the food is more palatable in a different pot. But it is still the same food. (laughter) *But they are simply interested with the pots. External. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye . . . (SB 7.5.31). They are thinking by changing the pot the advancement of civilization will increase. And that is going on. Just like the America. You have got very big, big roads, nice cars, everything. You are changing the pot, but the eatable is the same. I heard a nice example given the other day about how the living entities are suffering. A black widow, male and female black widow spiders, have sex life. After the sex life the female spider consumes the male spider, eats him alive. What's that? Spider. Black widow. She will eat him after sex, kill him. (laughs) So we are also killing by and by, and she kills immediately. That is the difference. Yes, little by little. (laughter) Tulasī dāsa has said that. Din kā dakinī rāt kā bāghinī pālak pālak rahu cuṣe, duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhagilipu sei , that there is an animal who is at daytime a witch and at nighttime she's tigress. So her only business is to suck the blood. But people are so mad that everyone keeping that tigress. Duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhagini . Every home, there is a tigress like that. That's their wife. Their best friend. (laughs) At daytime, witch, and nighttime, tigress. This is her picture. But people know it, and still, they keep one tigress at home. Duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhag . . . so that lady spider and lord spider, that is everywhere. But here gradually, and they are immediately. That is the difference. The process is the same. People want to enjoy by sex, by seminal discharge, but what is this? His blood. By fifteen drops of blood, or something like that, one drop of semina is created. Forty drops of blood, one drop of semina. *Forty drops. Yes. So one ounce of semina discharge means forty ounce of blood sucked. This is a fact. So he is enjoying his own blood, and he's thinking, "I am enjoying." Therefore he's compared with the camel. Śva*-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Camel eats the thorny twigs, and the thorns pricks the tongue and blood comes out. So after twig is mixed with blood, it becomes tasteful, and he thinks thorn is very nice. (laughs) So thorn is not nice; nice is his blood, own blood. But he, because he's animal, he's thinking it is very nice. So many people that run their life that way, they realize that, "This woman is not making me happy. She's making me work, and I'm miserable, and I don't like it," but they keep on. Yes. Therefore he's described as mad, bhora. Bhora means mad. Duniya sab bhorakhobe gare gare bhagini . We're almost there, Prabhupāda. *In the heavenly planets the woman is described that during summer they are very warm, the body is very warm, and during winter . . . er . . . summer the body is very cool of the woman, and during summer the body is cool and during winter the body is very warm. That is the nature of the woman in heavenly planets. And their breast is very, very tight and strongly built. And their youthfulness never diminishes. These are the description of the heavenly woman. Bhāgavata , everything is there. Mohinī*-mūrti began to play on the balls, and the description of the breast is there and . . . what is called this portion? Armpit. Armpit. Yes. So she was playing ball one hand, and one hand a bunch of hair would become, immediately she was taking care. So with this beauty Lord Śiva become mad. As soon as one man sees the breast and this armpit of young woman, then he is finished. (laughs) So what happens to us? It is every man that this is the position. This is the position. And so long we will be charmed with these things, he has to take birth again and again. Viṣayināṁ saṁdarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca. This is the property, Prabhupāda. Excuse me. This is your home, and the devotees are here for you. I can lock it now if you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yes, yes, yes. Would you like some warm milk, Prabhupāda? No. This is for your servants. Push the button, they hear in the back. Cold water for you, here, Prabhupāda. Cold water here if you want some. Cold water. They are bringing some hot milk, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Also something interesting about this water, Prabhupāda. It's all natural spring water, it's not city water. Underground water, fresh water. It's quiet here. It is nice. There's a swimming pool here, Prabhupāda. You have a garden by the pool, you can take your massage there. This is your own house? What you have paid for it? *Well, now we are leasing with option to buy. We have ten*-year lease. We can purchase anytime before ten years. Price is fixed? Six hundred fifty thousand. But all money paid for rent goes toward purchase. That's nice. How much a month? *Right around now, it's about twenty*-five hundred, and it will average that for ten years. At the end of ten years, it will drop to like twenty-two, twenty-one, which is . . . it will be worth much more in ten years. It's very good. And he also is responsible . . . the owner is responsible for any major malfunctions in any equipment on the property. We just had your water pump replaced for six hundred dollars, and he had to pay because of our contract. It is an exceptional arrangement. No interest. How many rooms? Several buildings, Prabhupāda. We have one big temple building down there, very gorgeous, with big kitchen. I may see now? If you like. Or it is closed. Deities are resting. That's all right. In the morning I think it would be better to see things. Yes. We can walk on the property. Morning walk. Jaya . The kitchen is governmentally approved, so that if we decide to have a big festival, we can cook and distribute publicly without any problems. These furnitures were there? No, this is all we have purchased. For you, Prabhupāda. The doors also, lights—everything we have purchased. Oh. You had to utilize so much money. But this is Washington, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Everything . . . this neighborhood is one of the most wealthy neighborhoods in the country. It is very big. We did not think we would be able to get in so easy. But now the people are appreciating how we have fixed up the property, so they have accepted us into the community. But it is very wealthy. You will see some of the new houses being built. They have seen our books? I don't know. Have you made some . . .? Well, basically we've been just getting them used to us. We have not approached them so much, because we've only been here a short time. How long have we been here altogether? Four months. Three to four months. In four months, they have transformed this. That's good. This wooden wall was there? Yes. We refinished them. It was all dirty. It was not used. It was simply for office, like that. And the temple building was a gymnasium. It used to be a gymnasium, and we have converted the whole thing. That was one reason that we were very much attracted to the property. The property itself was not very beautiful when we came, but the gym was built, and we saw it as an immediate temple where we could hold kīrtana and preach. So we then made a contract, and the fish bit. Nobody was taking it. No one was taking it. (laughs) Our Detroit property is like that. White elephant. Nobody was taking, but it was quite suitable for us. And that is the finest property. You have seen it? I have not been there. I have seen photographs. I have seen it. Is it not? It is the finest, the finest. And we have got very cheap. One room will cost three hundred thousand, it is so costly. They said they spent about two millions dollars fifty years ago. Fifty years ago. That's ten, twenty million now. But nobody was taking. Haribol Narottama. Narottama: Hot milk. And there is fruit, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There is fruit also. (devotee enters; offers obeisances) Come on. Jaya . (pause) You take. That's all. What is this? Kiwi from New Zealand. (Prabhupāda is eating during the conversation) Those are Narottama's rasagullās over there, Prabhupāda. Narottama's rasagullā . He's learned how to make Indian sweets very expertly. He was making them in Detroit. Hmm. Jaya , Prabhupāda. That's wonderful, Prabhupāda. Where he is going now? Ready to arrange the luggage. This is real prasādam distribution. Very nice. (Prabhupāda continues to eat) Those are melons, Prabhupāda. Watermelons, sweet melons. They are the best. I take America as my fatherland. India is motherland, and here is fatherland. (laughs) So many fathers. My father was very affectionate to me. He would do everything for me. I lost one father, I have got so many fathers. Jaya . We'd like to keep it that way, Prabhupāda. If you'd let us, we'd like to keep it that way. We want to take care of you forever, Prabhupāda. What do you say, Prabhupāda? That . . . everyone appreciated that in India, that the American fathers keeping him. Just like keeping him in cotton. (laughs) They admit that. Where is salt? There are many flies here? Not many, and we have screens also in the windows, so there shouldn't be too much disturbance from them. Fruits are so nice. Kṛṣṇa has given fruit. They are locally grown? No, Prabhupāda. Not too many. They all come from other parts of the country. Your country? Yes. Not outside. Not like England, they have to import from . . . this is a very good example. Just like salt, we require. A little salt will increase the taste. But because it is absolutely necessary for eating, salt—everyone eats salt; *nobody can avoid salt—it does not mean I shall eat too much. If I take this whole salt pot and put into . . . because "It is very good," that is foolishness. Similarly, sense gratification, so long we have got this material body, we require little. But because it is tasty, "Let us take it, whole pot," that is mistake. This is going on. This foolishness is going on. Sex life is good, simply take sex life, go on, and spoil your whole life. That is going on. If everything is accepted in regulative principle—little salt, that's all—that's very nice. But as soon as you think "It is very nice. Let me take simply this," then it is spoiled. That is wanted. We don't reject anything, but accept in a regular way. Flesh eaters? All right, you want flesh? "No, I want flesh, but I want this big cow." Why not less important animal? There are so many other animals. The goats are there, the lambs are there, the hogs are there. Take them. Why Kṛṣṇa says go*-rakṣya ? It is a very important animal. It will give you brain substance, this rasagullā . Therefore Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . But this rascal has no knowledge. The cows gives us milk, very nutritious. "No, eat the whole cow. Then all nutrition will come." This is their intelligence. Rubbish civilization. Why Kṛṣṇa has recommended go-rakṣya ? He never said that other animal. If you are fond of eating flesh, you take other animals, not the cow. Give protection, take milk from it, and prepare nice preparation, that will be good for brain, for your mind. Apart from . . . there is no question of religious sentiment. From practical. Just the medical point of view, it is right. You see. But they are so fools, rascals, they'll not accept it. And they'll give example, "Christ ate fish" somewhere. "Therefore we have to maintain the slaughterhouse." Because Christ ate fish, therefore we have to maintain slaughterhouse. Give the dog a bad name and hang it. Huh? This is going on. So we have to make vigorous propaganda for all this foolishness. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. So we are giving the best civilization, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. With little patience and perseverance you work on it, people will take it. Because there is nothing adulteration; it is pure. Rest assured, if you follow the principles and push on according to the prescription I have given, it will be accepted. May take some time. But they will appreciate the purity. It is pure. Actually, these fruits and some milk preparation are sufficient. You don't require any flesh. Is the flesh comparable with this nice fruit? (pause) Come on. Sit down. (distributing prasādam ) Is there one for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (laughs) Yes, I am not so fool that I shall give everything. (laughter) (end) Arrival -- July 2, 1976, Washington D.C. (in car from airport) . . . live? Is he finished, or if somewhere he is still living, nobody knows. You are keeping his memorial, but where is the actual person, they do not know. Suppose I have come here, and all of a sudden I go away, keeping my shirt and coat. And if you worship my shirt and coat and do not take care where I have gone, is that very good intelligence? No, Prabhupāda. This is going on. We will worship your shirt and coat, though. Lincoln, if you worship . . . where is Lincoln's temple? In Paris, I saw one park, Napoleon Bonaparte. You have been there? Yes, Paris. They identified "Napoleon is France." France is there, but where is Napoleon? They do not consider like this. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ ( SB 7.5.31). Blind man be happy that Lincoln was here, that's all. Where he is now? Or he's finished. If he's finished, why you are worshiping his shirt and coat? What is the answer? What is their answer? If he's finished, what is the use of worshiping his shirt and coat? They say that what he accomplished, although it may not be the final answer, it was a step forward, and therefore he should be worshiped. *Then his worship must be . . . that means after furnishing he is also finished? That is ignorance. That is not the fact. If he's finished, then what was the purpose of furnishing? There are so many questions in this connection, but they cannot understand. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). This is ignorance. This kind of civilization is civilization of darkness. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. It looks like the devotees are the only people who are enlightened in this dark world. By your mercy, only the devotees can actually see anything properly and understand the condition. In Russia, that Kruschev, he was . . . now, where he has gone, nobody knows. Finished. Nobody knows. They retired him. They gave him a small place just outside Moscow. You know that? Yes, there was a story about five years after he got kicked out of office. He was just doing nothing, living by himself. And what he has done? (laughter) Nothing, and what he has done? They want to worship Kṛṣṇa, but they don't know how. *They don't want to worship anyone. They want to worship their senses, that's all. Sense gratification. What is dictated by the senses, they agree, that's all. Servant of the senses. In the material world nobody worships nobody. Everyone serves his own senses, "I like it." That's all. There is a Bengali song, cokhe yadi lage bhalo keno dekhbo na "If it satisfies my eyes, why shall I not see? I shall see." This is the sum*-substance of . . . cokhe yadi lage bhalo keno dekhbo na. Everyone wants sense gratification, to be servant of the senses. If the senses want "Do this," he will do it. And our Movement is that we shall not hear the dictation of the senses, we shall do what Kṛṣṇa says. That is just opposite. So long I am carrying out the orders of the senses, then I am involved in this material birth, death, transmigration. Today I am running on this nice car. Next I can stand up here as a tree. Who can check it? After death you are completely under the . . . your life also completely under the laws of nature. So there is no discussion, no understanding, no knowledge about this. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to change our body. What kind of body we are going to get, nobody knows. "This life is everything. This body is everything." Very risky. They do not inquire even wherefrom this body has come. They are also coming. They are also living. They are also eating. The trees, they are also eating water. Our distributors were in the airport not long ago, and they distributed a book to a man who has just recently written a book called The Fourth Kingdom . And he stopped off to visit our temple and talk with us, because he was impressed with the devotees and the literature, and he would like to come and speak to you. You have arranged some engagement? *Yes. If it's all right with you, he'll come. He's very nice, but he has some mixed*-up ideas. *Everyone has mixed*-up ideas because nobody is properly trained up. Some ideas they have got, inquiries they have got. But unless one comes to the right person, he cannot be enlightened. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore one must approach the proper guru . Everyone has accepted the wrong authority. Eh? Everyone has accepted the wrong authority. Yes. Because he's misled by sense gratification, so even he approaches a guru , if the guru cannot satisfy his senses, he doesn't like. Because he's under the subjugation of senses, he expects that guru also will satisfy his senses, then he is guru . If guru says something against his sense gratification, "Ah, he is not guru ." (laughs) Guru also must be a person who can satisfy your senses. The disease is sense gratification. After he took those books home and he read them, he wrote us a letter, and he said he thought you were very intelligent man and would like to speak to you. So we'll see. Maybe he can hear. Yes, we are speaking something not of this world, but we are pointing out the defects of this world. "This world" means the world of sense gratification. The karmīs , they say: "What is the matter with sense gratification?" They say they like sense gratification; it's very good. Very good, but if you can continue it. But you rascal, you cannot continue it. "Very good, I am now president," but why you are kicked out? Huh? Now, what about the Nixon? Very good, he was president, now he's kicked out, what is his position? He doesn't think that, that "I may be kicked out from my position at any moment. So what is the value of my sense gratification?" He was gratifying his senses. As he liked, he was doing. But now he's kicked out, what he can do now? Why does he not think that? Take the, I mean, living example. Who wants to be kicked out from the presidency? But now he's kicked out. He's living also. He's not in that position. That Kruschev, he's not in that position. Why does he not think that, "Any moment I'll be kicked out." And what is that enforcement that kicks out? Why don't they think like that, Prabhupāda? That is their foolishness. That's due to too much sinful activity? Too much sinful activity, that they can't think that there's some divine influence? *Yes. There is no education. Fools. They're childish. A child is playing, he's enjoying, but he does not know that he has to take education, he has to grow up, he'll become a young man. Sometimes, if he's not educated, he'll suffer. He doesn't know. He's playing, that's all. The father says: "My dear child, you read." "No, I like playing." "All right." Similarly, they are childish, foolish, without any responsibility. The animals are doing like that. Ṛṣabhadeva says: "No, no, no. This life is not for this purpose." Nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). Simply for sense gratification so much trouble, like hogs and dogs—this is not life. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvam . Just practice austerity to purify your existence. Your existence is not purified. You are put in a position. If you like, that's all right. But because you are not in a purified position, you'll be kicked out at any moment. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). You are very proud to have your position, but nature will kick you out at any moment. But you cannot do anything. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate. He's foolish. He's thinking, "I have everything. I can remain in this presidential position as I like." That is not the position. That is foolishness; that is childish. He does not know what is his position. But he wants position. That means there is a good position for him, but not here. That he does not know. Everyone is hankering after good position, but where is that good position, that he does not know. Everyone is hankering after water, but he is going after water in the desert. That is animalism. The animal runs after the water in the desert, and a human being, he knows, "No, this is not water; this is reflection." The water is there, that's a fact, but not here. That is human . . . it is reflection of water. Reflection water means the water is there, but it is not here. Similarly, good position is there, but not here. Here it is simply a reflection of that position. That he does not understand. Where is the actual water, wherefrom the reflection comes, that he does not know. Falsely thinking that, "Here is everything." Very big, big scientists, they are thinking only on this planet there is life, and all planets are vacant. Too lazy, late. They all think like that, Prabhupāda. They are such rascals. They have no common sense that this is also one of the planets, it is filled up with life and everything, and why the other planets should be vacant? If there is rock and sand, then why not other things? Here is also rock and sand and other things also. But these rascals, they think there is simply rock and sand, nothing else. And they are misleading. What is the reason? This planet is filled up with life, and other planets vacant. All right, they can go and colonize there. They say it is not possible. Then why do you go there, spend money? This is going on. Prabhupāda, these . . . nobody wants to do the wrong thing. Nobody wants to go up . . . They are doing wrong thing every moment. Yes, but I mean no one works to do the wrong thing; they work to do the right thing. But they'll not take the right thing. If you say the right thing, they will come to beat you with shoes, run away. They don't have any idea what the right thing is. Everything they're doing is wrong. They want right thing, but they have no idea of right thing. And if you say the right thing, they will not accept it. This is their disease. That is more than māyā ; that is their heart. That is called māyā . That is māyā . Yes. They are suffering, and if you give him the remedy that he'll not have to suffer, he'll not take it. But that rejection, that is their choice of the heart, isn't it? I mean, they have a choice to make? No, no. That is the same thing. Just the child is playing, but if you say: "My dear child, you please take education, otherwise you'll suffer," "Oh, I don't . . ." Child does not like. He wants to play. That is childish, or foolish. He doesn't want to be educated. That is foolishness. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This human life is meant for becoming educated about Brahman. They will not take it. They want to remain animals, eating and sleeping. This animal life, that's all. Eat nicely, sleep nicely, have sex life nicely, defend nicely, that's all. Nicely, according to the standard of the body. Here in America, to have a conveyance nicely like a car like this, but in Indian village, a bullock cart is nicely. So this nicely and that nicely, according to the body. You have got this American body, this is nicely. He has got Indian body, that is nicely. But the feeling of niceness is there and here. We are having sex in a very nice apartment, decorated and so on, so on, and a dog is having sex on the street. But the pleasure of sex life is both the same. But we are thinking this is nice. But that is not the fact. The niceness, the feelings of niceness, is there and here. And so much suffering. *Yes. Simply you have to take so much trouble. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja's instruction. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām (SB 7.6.3). The sense gratification, the standard of sense gratification, is deha-yogena dehinām , according to the body. The pig is eating very nicely stool because he has got a body like that. A human being will not take that. But the pleasure of eating, either stool or rasagullā , the same. You gave the example of a gold pot and an iron pot and a diamond pot. A diamond pot was a demigod, and the gold pot was a human being, and the iron pot the animal. But they are thinking that the food is more palatable in a different pot. But it is still the same food. (laughter) *But they are simply interested with the pots. External. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye . . . (SB 7.5.31). They are thinking by changing the pot the advancement of civilization will increase. And that is going on. Just like the America. You have got very big, big roads, nice cars, everything. You are changing the pot, but the eatable is the same. I heard a nice example given the other day about how the living entities are suffering. A black widow, male and female black widow spiders, have sex life. After the sex life the female spider consumes the male spider, eats him alive. What's that? Spider. Black widow. She will eat him after sex, kill him. (laughs) So we are also killing by and by, and she kills immediately. That is the difference. Yes, little by little. (laughter) Tulasī dāsa has said that. Din kā dakinī rāt kā bāghinī pālak pālak rahu cuṣe, duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhagilipu sei , that there is an animal who is at daytime a witch and at nighttime she's tigress. So her only business is to suck the blood. But people are so mad that everyone keeping that tigress. Duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhagini . Every home, there is a tigress like that. That's their wife. Their best friend. (laughs) At daytime, witch, and nighttime, tigress. This is her picture. But people know it, and still, they keep one tigress at home. Duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhag . . . so that lady spider and lord spider, that is everywhere. But here gradually, and they are immediately. That is the difference. The process is the same. People want to enjoy by sex, by seminal discharge, but what is this? His blood. By fifteen drops of blood, or something like that, one drop of semina is created. Forty drops of blood, one drop of semina. *Forty drops. Yes. So one ounce of semina discharge means forty ounce of blood sucked. This is a fact. So he is enjoying his own blood, and he's thinking, "I am enjoying." Therefore he's compared with the camel. Śva*-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Camel eats the thorny twigs, and the thorns pricks the tongue and blood comes out. So after twig is mixed with blood, it becomes tasteful, and he thinks thorn is very nice. (laughs) So thorn is not nice; nice is his blood, own blood. But he, because he's animal, he's thinking it is very nice. So many people that run their life that way, they realize that, "This woman is not making me happy. She's making me work, and I'm miserable, and I don't like it," but they keep on. Yes. Therefore he's described as mad, bhora. Bhora means mad. Duniya sab bhorakhobe gare gare bhagini . We're almost there, Prabhupāda. *In the heavenly planets the woman is described that during summer they are very warm, the body is very warm, and during winter . . . er . . . summer the body is very cool of the woman, and during summer the body is cool and during winter the body is very warm. That is the nature of the woman in heavenly planets. And their breast is very, very tight and strongly built. And their youthfulness never diminishes. These are the description of the heavenly woman. Bhāgavata , everything is there. Mohinī*-mūrti began to play on the balls, and the description of the breast is there and . . . what is called this portion? Armpit. Armpit. Yes. So she was playing ball one hand, and one hand a bunch of hair would become, immediately she was taking care. So with this beauty Lord Śiva become mad. As soon as one man sees the breast and this armpit of young woman, then he is finished. (laughs) So what happens to us? It is every man that this is the position. This is the position. And so long we will be charmed with these things, he has to take birth again and again. Viṣayināṁ saṁdarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca. This is the property, Prabhupāda. Excuse me. This is your home, and the devotees are here for you. I can lock it now if you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yes, yes, yes. Would you like some warm milk, Prabhupāda? No. This is for your servants. Push the button, they hear in the back. Cold water for you, here, Prabhupāda. Cold water here if you want some. Cold water. They are bringing some hot milk, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Also something interesting about this water, Prabhupāda. It's all natural spring water, it's not city water. Underground water, fresh water. It's quiet here. It is nice. There's a swimming pool here, Prabhupāda. You have a garden by the pool, you can take your massage there. This is your own house? What you have paid for it? *Well, now we are leasing with option to buy. We have ten*-year lease. We can purchase anytime before ten years. Price is fixed? Six hundred fifty thousand. But all money paid for rent goes toward purchase. That's nice. How much a month? *Right around now, it's about twenty*-five hundred, and it will average that for ten years. At the end of ten years, it will drop to like twenty-two, twenty-one, which is . . . it will be worth much more in ten years. It's very good. And he also is responsible . . . the owner is responsible for any major malfunctions in any equipment on the property. We just had your water pump replaced for six hundred dollars, and he had to pay because of our contract. It is an exceptional arrangement. No interest. How many rooms? Several buildings, Prabhupāda. We have one big temple building down there, very gorgeous, with big kitchen. I may see now? If you like. Or it is closed. Deities are resting. That's all right. In the morning I think it would be better to see things. Yes. We can walk on the property. Morning walk. Jaya . The kitchen is governmentally approved, so that if we decide to have a big festival, we can cook and distribute publicly without any problems. These furnitures were there? No, this is all we have purchased. For you, Prabhupāda. The doors also, lights—everything we have purchased. Oh. You had to utilize so much money. But this is Washington, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Everything . . . this neighborhood is one of the most wealthy neighborhoods in the country. It is very big. We did not think we would be able to get in so easy. But now the people are appreciating how we have fixed up the property, so they have accepted us into the community. But it is very wealthy. You will see some of the new houses being built. They have seen our books? I don't know. Have you made some . . .? Well, basically we've been just getting them used to us. We have not approached them so much, because we've only been here a short time. How long have we been here altogether? Four months. Three to four months. In four months, they have transformed this. That's good. This wooden wall was there? Yes. We refinished them. It was all dirty. It was not used. It was simply for office, like that. And the temple building was a gymnasium. It used to be a gymnasium, and we have converted the whole thing. That was one reason that we were very much attracted to the property. The property itself was not very beautiful when we came, but the gym was built, and we saw it as an immediate temple where we could hold kīrtana and preach. So we then made a contract, and the fish bit. Nobody was taking it. No one was taking it. (laughs) Our Detroit property is like that. White elephant. Nobody was taking, but it was quite suitable for us. And that is the finest property. You have seen it? I have not been there. I have seen photographs. I have seen it. Is it not? It is the finest, the finest. And we have got very cheap. One room will cost three hundred thousand, it is so costly. They said they spent about two millions dollars fifty years ago. Fifty years ago. That's ten, twenty million now. But nobody was taking. Haribol Narottama. Narottama: Hot milk. And there is fruit, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There is fruit also. (devotee enters; offers obeisances) Come on. Jaya . (pause) You take. That's all. What is this? Kiwi from New Zealand. (Prabhupāda is eating during the conversation) Those are Narottama's rasagullās over there, Prabhupāda. Narottama's rasagullā . He's learned how to make Indian sweets very expertly. He was making them in Detroit. Hmm. Jaya , Prabhupāda. That's wonderful, Prabhupāda. Where he is going now? Ready to arrange the luggage. This is real prasādam distribution. Very nice. (Prabhupāda continues to eat) Those are melons, Prabhupāda. Watermelons, sweet melons. They are the best. I take America as my fatherland. India is motherland, and here is fatherland. (laughs) So many fathers. My father was very affectionate to me. He would do everything for me. I lost one father, I have got so many fathers. Jaya . We'd like to keep it that way, Prabhupāda. If you'd let us, we'd like to keep it that way. We want to take care of you forever, Prabhupāda. What do you say, Prabhupāda? That . . . everyone appreciated that in India, that the American fathers keeping him. Just like keeping him in cotton. (laughs) They admit that. Where is salt? There are many flies here? Not many, and we have screens also in the windows, so there shouldn't be too much disturbance from them. Fruits are so nice. Kṛṣṇa has given fruit. They are locally grown? No, Prabhupāda. Not too many. They all come from other parts of the country. Your country? Yes. Not outside. Not like England, they have to import from . . . this is a very good example. Just like salt, we require. A little salt will increase the taste. But because it is absolutely necessary for eating, salt—everyone eats salt; *nobody can avoid salt—it does not mean I shall eat too much. If I take this whole salt pot and put into . . . because "It is very good," that is foolishness. Similarly, sense gratification, so long we have got this material body, we require little. But because it is tasty, "Let us take it, whole pot," that is mistake. This is going on. This foolishness is going on. Sex life is good, simply take sex life, go on, and spoil your whole life. That is going on. If everything is accepted in regulative principle—little salt, that's all—that's very nice. But as soon as you think "It is very nice. Let me take simply this," then it is spoiled. That is wanted. We don't reject anything, but accept in a regular way. Flesh eaters? All right, you want flesh? "No, I want flesh, but I want this big cow." Why not less important animal? There are so many other animals. The goats are there, the lambs are there, the hogs are there. Take them. Why Kṛṣṇa says go*-rakṣya ? It is a very important animal. It will give you brain substance, this rasagullā . Therefore Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . But this rascal has no knowledge. The cows gives us milk, very nutritious. "No, eat the whole cow. Then all nutrition will come." This is their intelligence. Rubbish civilization. Why Kṛṣṇa has recommended go-rakṣya ? He never said that other animal. If you are fond of eating flesh, you take other animals, not the cow. Give protection, take milk from it, and prepare nice preparation, that will be good for brain, for your mind. Apart from . . . there is no question of religious sentiment. From practical. Just the medical point of view, it is right. You see. But they are so fools, rascals, they'll not accept it. And they'll give example, "Christ ate fish" somewhere. "Therefore we have to maintain the slaughterhouse." Because Christ ate fish, therefore we have to maintain slaughterhouse. Give the dog a bad name and hang it. Huh? This is going on. So we have to make vigorous propaganda for all this foolishness. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. So we are giving the best civilization, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. With little patience and perseverance you work on it, people will take it. Because there is nothing adulteration; it is pure. Rest assured, if you follow the principles and push on according to the prescription I have given, it will be accepted. May take some time. But they will appreciate the purity. It is pure. Actually, these fruits and some milk preparation are sufficient. You don't require any flesh. Is the flesh comparable with this nice fruit? (pause) Come on. Sit down. (distributing prasādam ) Is there one for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (laughs) Yes, I am not so fool that I shall give everything. (laughter) (end) Conversation A -- July 3, 1976, Washington D.C. *. . . we have ordered. They will be arriving in two months. Also we have Prabhupāda*-Bhaktisiddhānta deities. They will be coming also. We will be the first in America to have Prabhupāda, Bhaktisiddhānta and Sītā-Rāma. Here? Yes, Prabhupāda. Very good. This rasagullā is nice. Not as good as Keśī dāsa. They make it like Keśī dāsa, in New Vrindavan . . . (indistinct) (long pause) (indistinct background whispering) There is water? (indistinct) . . . here, Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . to purchase it? And he has to sell to us. Nobody will purchase. No. And we have the option secured with a deposit. Otherwise, we would not spend so much money. Now, as soon as possible, you purchase it. Six hundred thousand? *Six*-fifty. We have purchased. In effect, we have already purchased, Prabhupāda. It is ours. It is just that we have ten years to get more money. It's cheaper to make the payments than to try and buy. But Rāmeśvara has not agreed to pay? No, we do not have to get money from BBT this way. This way we do not have to take loan. It is good, because BBT does not have that much money. No, we need supply money to India. Depend on Kṛṣṇa; Kṛṣṇa will supply. Jaya . That happened just about less than a month ago. Some gentleman who was a Seventh Day Adventist, he became interested and started to call and come by, and listened to the philosophy, and even listened to your tapes. And then shortly after that he gave a donation of five thousand dollars. We bought with it some chandeliers for Kṛṣṇa's temple for you to see tomorrow. Five thousand dollars? Yes. Don't misspend. Not all on chandeliers. Just part of it. You have a bell system? Yes, it rings, but you can't hear it in here. It rings in the back quarters. Okay. I'll just go in there. The doors you have purchased? Yes. It is costly? Yes. The other doors were not . . . they could not even be locked nicely. Very nice. We got matching doors all the way through your quarters. We are hoping if you like it, you will stay here, Prabhupāda. I want to stay, but . . . . . . cannot. Where's the bell? I want to test the buzzer. On the other side, underneath, it works. This Washington temple actually is one of your oldest centers, but this is the first time you have been able to come when facilities were proper. So we have . . . Indians are coming? Yes. They come on the Love Feast? They come to the Sunday feast. They are starting to come more now. With the changes we made in the temple, and they are being very much impressed that we are doing nicely, and they want to become a part. I heard that Ambassador, you have made some engagement? Prabhupāda, he . . . I got a call from his secretary, and I've been working on it, and I've been to his house once. He has a very nice, stately house. He had requested that maybe you could come there to his home, and your servant and Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa were thinking it might be hard for you to travel there. So we're trying to convince him to come here. Ah. There is no question of insisting. They cannot help us in any way. No, not at all. I have tried all these. They are useless. We have written all the Parliament, and we have asked them to come, but they are too busy. So you go and take rest. Jaya. Haribol . There is much time difference from . . .? From . . .? *Ten*-thirty. It's ten-thirty now. No, New Vrindavan and . . .? Same time, New Vrindavan. Should I close this, Prabhupāda? I'm going to the bedroom. Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like a fan that doesn't make so much noise, perhaps? A fan in here? May be required. Yes. (end) Conversation A -- July 3, 1976, Washington D.C. *. . . we have ordered. They will be arriving in two months. Also we have Prabhupāda*-Bhaktisiddhānta deities. They will be coming also. We will be the first in America to have Prabhupāda, Bhaktisiddhānta and Sītā-Rāma. Here? Yes, Prabhupāda. Very good. This rasagullā is nice. Not as good as Keśī dāsa. They make it like Keśī dāsa, in New Vrindavan . . . (indistinct) (long pause) (indistinct background whispering) There is water? (indistinct) . . . here, Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . to purchase it? And he has to sell to us. Nobody will purchase. No. And we have the option secured with a deposit. Otherwise, we would not spend so much money. Now, as soon as possible, you purchase it. Six hundred thousand? *Six*-fifty. We have purchased. In effect, we have already purchased, Prabhupāda. It is ours. It is just that we have ten years to get more money. It's cheaper to make the payments than to try and buy. But Rāmeśvara has not agreed to pay? No, we do not have to get money from BBT this way. This way we do not have to take loan. It is good, because BBT does not have that much money. No, we need supply money to India. Depend on Kṛṣṇa; Kṛṣṇa will supply. Jaya . That happened just about less than a month ago. Some gentleman who was a Seventh Day Adventist, he became interested and started to call and come by, and listened to the philosophy, and even listened to your tapes. And then shortly after that he gave a donation of five thousand dollars. We bought with it some chandeliers for Kṛṣṇa's temple for you to see tomorrow. Five thousand dollars? Yes. Don't misspend. Not all on chandeliers. Just part of it. You have a bell system? Yes, it rings, but you can't hear it in here. It rings in the back quarters. Okay. I'll just go in there. The doors you have purchased? Yes. It is costly? Yes. The other doors were not . . . they could not even be locked nicely. Very nice. We got matching doors all the way through your quarters. We are hoping if you like it, you will stay here, Prabhupāda. I want to stay, but . . . . . . cannot. Where's the bell? I want to test the buzzer. On the other side, underneath, it works. This Washington temple actually is one of your oldest centers, but this is the first time you have been able to come when facilities were proper. So we have . . . Indians are coming? Yes. They come on the Love Feast? They come to the Sunday feast. They are starting to come more now. With the changes we made in the temple, and they are being very much impressed that we are doing nicely, and they want to become a part. I heard that Ambassador, you have made some engagement? Prabhupāda, he . . . I got a call from his secretary, and I've been working on it, and I've been to his house once. He has a very nice, stately house. He had requested that maybe you could come there to his home, and your servant and Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa were thinking it might be hard for you to travel there. So we're trying to convince him to come here. Ah. There is no question of insisting. They cannot help us in any way. No, not at all. I have tried all these. They are useless. We have written all the Parliament, and we have asked them to come, but they are too busy. So you go and take rest. Jaya. Haribol . There is much time difference from . . .? From . . .? *Ten*-thirty. It's ten-thirty now. No, New Vrindavan and . . .? Same time, New Vrindavan. Should I close this, Prabhupāda? I'm going to the bedroom. Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like a fan that doesn't make so much noise, perhaps? A fan in here? May be required. Yes. (end) Conversation A -- July 4, 1976, Washington D.C. . . . punaḥ punaś carvita carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30), again spend millions of dollars. And our rascal Indian leaders, they are also. What is that here, she has remarked, "Hare Kṛṣṇa cult." Oh, yeah, that Indian cultural organization. Who said that? One . . . *They have one cultural organization, they want to export yogīs and teachers who they approve of, the Indian government approves of as being bona fide. Because the American government, so many people are complaining about misrepresentation by these Indian svāmīs and so*-called yogīs that are coming over. So they put Guru . . . the Divine Light Society . . . They said that once this is established there will be no room for the Divine Lighters, the Hare Kṛṣṇa cultists, like this. T.M., like that. Transcendental Meditation. Label, put us all together. Really. Foolish woman. And they're spending . . . A hundred and sixty nine lakhs or something. A hundred and sixty nine lakhs per year, inviting foreign cultures to lecture. And only a handful came. Hmm? Only a handful they had; something like sixty people. They spent two . . . And what culture they'll speak? . . . (indistinct Hindi) Culural exchange. They can speak, "Milk is dangerous and meat is very nutritious. Kill all the cows." Oh, yes, it's very scientific. This is the cult. "Milk is dangerous." Is it not? Yeah, they're saying that, the doctors nowadays. It's true. I remember one day you retorted that. You said that, "Milk is nothing but the blood of the cow transformed. And the milk is bad but the blood is good?" They scare people by saying that milk helps to create heart disease and artery disease, like that. They frighten people with that propaganda, the doctors. Meat creates cancer of the intestines. Actually, there have been some articles in papers lately about meat and cancer, linking meat and cancer. Prominent, prominently displayed articles. Then why do you give milk to the children? Give him blood. They say past a certain age . . . No, no, this propaganda—milk is bad—so why from the very beginning you give milk to the children? Actually, in America they do not feed the children by the breast. They use cow's milk practically from birth. Therefore I say. It's true. There was an article in the newspaper about that today. It said in the newspaper that if women stop breast feeding their children they will have to increase the population of dairy cows tremendously. A very small percentage do now. They have to increase? More and more cows to produce enough milk to feed children. And therefore we are killing children. There is no problem, we shall kill our . . . why do you call? We shall kill, wholesale. And go to ball dance. The whole civilization is completely crazy. Kārtikeya told me. After many years he went to see his mother, and mother was going to ball dance. And mother said: "Wait, I am coming back." And he was surprised. He told me. Son has come at home after many years, and she could not talk with him. She was going to ball dance. It's actually that way. It actually goes on that way. This is the mother. Completely callous. Not even mother love anymore. Mother killing. He was about to be killed. He admits. His grandmother advised the mother. Yes. Kṛṣṇa saved him. Because he is devotee, some way or other, he was saved. Your grandmother still living? Just. Why don't you say, (laughs) "You wanted to kill me, just see, I'm chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." I don't think it would go down very well if I mentioned it. Eh? I don't think it would be received very well. She might say: "See, I was right." Mother advising young daughter to kill her child. Actually there was a statement in the national magazine, the President's wife was advising her own daughter to the reporters that she should have illicit sex. Yes, this President's wife, this present First Lady, is very abominable. She actually came out and said: "If I were young I would also experiment with drugs." So many things. No, why here? In India, in India, in a office, I was going there for my Back to Godhead , so the clerk had one girl, they were intimately related, and the girl's father, mother allowed. The boy was coming. And when the girl wanted to marry him, the father refused: "No, no, you cannot marry. Let him come as friend, but there is no question of marriage." What was their purpose? Purpose is that, "You are young girl, you can have a young boy as friend and have your sex, but don't talk of marriage." This is the plain fact. "You need sex? All right, keep him as friend. Marriage, that I will select, or a better boy. When we find, then there is question of marriage. He's a clerk, how you can be married with him? He's coming as friend. You enjoy sex, that's all." This is the . . . first of all, he was ordered not to come. Then the girl began to cry. Then he allowed, "All right let him come, but there is no question of marriage." Why he? Our, that (name withheld). You know? He was Ambassador in Germany. His daughter is a devotee. That boy who was selling books? (name withheld). (name withheld) is the girl's name. Ah. Her father said: "Yes, you keep as friend, don't marry." The (name withheld), Mr . . . He said that concerning (name withheld) and her? Yes. (name withheld) is living with her at her father's house. So he did not object but he objected marriage. I heard that she became like a witch. (name withheld) left her. He couldn't bear associating with her. Now he's brahmacārī again. (laughter) That was one of Bhagavān's marriages that didn't work out. We were thinking that just like when you were in Moscow, a picture was taken . . . some pictures were taken that were used for Back to Godhead , very good propaganda. We were thinking maybe when we go on this tour that in front of the White House maybe we could take a picture and use it in Back to Godhead in an article like that. That might be good propaganda. Yes, you can do. So we were thinking we would go there to the White House on the first part, then to Capitol, second part, then around to Lincoln Memorial, then Monument for fireworks ceremony. I will go to the fireworks. (end) Conversation A -- July 4, 1976, Washington D.C. . . . punaḥ punaś carvita carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30), again spend millions of dollars. And our rascal Indian leaders, they are also. What is that here, she has remarked, "Hare Kṛṣṇa cult." Oh, yeah, that Indian cultural organization. Who said that? One . . . *They have one cultural organization, they want to export yogīs and teachers who they approve of, the Indian government approves of as being bona fide. Because the American government, so many people are complaining about misrepresentation by these Indian svāmīs and so*-called yogīs that are coming over. So they put Guru . . . the Divine Light Society . . . They said that once this is established there will be no room for the Divine Lighters, the Hare Kṛṣṇa cultists, like this. T.M., like that. Transcendental Meditation. Label, put us all together. Really. Foolish woman. And they're spending . . . A hundred and sixty nine lakhs or something. A hundred and sixty nine lakhs per year, inviting foreign cultures to lecture. And only a handful came. Hmm? Only a handful they had; something like sixty people. They spent two . . . And what culture they'll speak? . . . (indistinct Hindi) Culural exchange. They can speak, "Milk is dangerous and meat is very nutritious. Kill all the cows." Oh, yes, it's very scientific. This is the cult. "Milk is dangerous." Is it not? Yeah, they're saying that, the doctors nowadays. It's true. I remember one day you retorted that. You said that, "Milk is nothing but the blood of the cow transformed. And the milk is bad but the blood is good?" They scare people by saying that milk helps to create heart disease and artery disease, like that. They frighten people with that propaganda, the doctors. Meat creates cancer of the intestines. Actually, there have been some articles in papers lately about meat and cancer, linking meat and cancer. Prominent, prominently displayed articles. Then why do you give milk to the children? Give him blood. They say past a certain age . . . No, no, this propaganda—milk is bad—so why from the very beginning you give milk to the children? Actually, in America they do not feed the children by the breast. They use cow's milk practically from birth. Therefore I say. It's true. There was an article in the newspaper about that today. It said in the newspaper that if women stop breast feeding their children they will have to increase the population of dairy cows tremendously. A very small percentage do now. They have to increase? More and more cows to produce enough milk to feed children. And therefore we are killing children. There is no problem, we shall kill our . . . why do you call? We shall kill, wholesale. And go to ball dance. The whole civilization is completely crazy. Kārtikeya told me. After many years he went to see his mother, and mother was going to ball dance. And mother said: "Wait, I am coming back." And he was surprised. He told me. Son has come at home after many years, and she could not talk with him. She was going to ball dance. It's actually that way. It actually goes on that way. This is the mother. Completely callous. Not even mother love anymore. Mother killing. He was about to be killed. He admits. His grandmother advised the mother. Yes. Kṛṣṇa saved him. Because he is devotee, some way or other, he was saved. Your grandmother still living? Just. Why don't you say, (laughs) "You wanted to kill me, just see, I'm chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." I don't think it would go down very well if I mentioned it. Eh? I don't think it would be received very well. She might say: "See, I was right." Mother advising young daughter to kill her child. Actually there was a statement in the national magazine, the President's wife was advising her own daughter to the reporters that she should have illicit sex. Yes, this President's wife, this present First Lady, is very abominable. She actually came out and said: "If I were young I would also experiment with drugs." So many things. No, why here? In India, in India, in a office, I was going there for my Back to Godhead , so the clerk had one girl, they were intimately related, and the girl's father, mother allowed. The boy was coming. And when the girl wanted to marry him, the father refused: "No, no, you cannot marry. Let him come as friend, but there is no question of marriage." What was their purpose? Purpose is that, "You are young girl, you can have a young boy as friend and have your sex, but don't talk of marriage." This is the plain fact. "You need sex? All right, keep him as friend. Marriage, that I will select, or a better boy. When we find, then there is question of marriage. He's a clerk, how you can be married with him? He's coming as friend. You enjoy sex, that's all." This is the . . . first of all, he was ordered not to come. Then the girl began to cry. Then he allowed, "All right let him come, but there is no question of marriage." Why he? Our, that (name withheld). You know? He was Ambassador in Germany. His daughter is a devotee. That boy who was selling books? (name withheld). (name withheld) is the girl's name. Ah. Her father said: "Yes, you keep as friend, don't marry." The (name withheld), Mr . . . He said that concerning (name withheld) and her? Yes. (name withheld) is living with her at her father's house. So he did not object but he objected marriage. I heard that she became like a witch. (name withheld) left her. He couldn't bear associating with her. Now he's brahmacārī again. (laughter) That was one of Bhagavān's marriages that didn't work out. We were thinking that just like when you were in Moscow, a picture was taken . . . some pictures were taken that were used for Back to Godhead , very good propaganda. We were thinking maybe when we go on this tour that in front of the White House maybe we could take a picture and use it in Back to Godhead in an article like that. That might be good propaganda. Yes, you can do. So we were thinking we would go there to the White House on the first part, then to Capitol, second part, then around to Lincoln Memorial, then Monument for fireworks ceremony. I will go to the fireworks. (end) Conversation A -- July 5, 1976, Washington D.C. (Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla) Everyone is engaged in the business of sense gratification. Just like last night millions of men went to see the firework. So the firework, as well as the people went to see there, the expenditure was very heavy, I think, total? You mentioned that with all of the cars going and what not, it probably amounted to about ten million dollars. *Yes, that petrol. But what was the purpose? The purpose was little sense gratification, "I shall see something illuminating." What was other purpose? No purpose. Simply to satisfy the eyes, to see something illuminating. That is one sense, eyes. Then there are other senses. They also want satisfaction. There are hands, there are legs, there are tongue, eyes, ears, nose. So every one, every one of these senses, they are engaged for sense satisfaction. So this is the life. But that sense satisfaction is differently exhibited for different bodies. Just like this firework, it was interesting to the human being. Human being has got a particular type of body, so it is interested to see the firework. But the cats and dogs, they are not interested. They do not know what is fireworks. They, while we are interested to see the firework, a hog may be interested to eat stool. If he gets some stool somewhere, he'll be interested than to see the firework. So because he has got a different body, he's interested differently. We are human beings, we are interested differently. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja rightly said, deha*-yogena dehinām ( SB 7.6.3). This sense gratification, varieties, according to the varieties of the body. Deha-yogena dehinām. *But this is arranged, this different process of sense gratification is arranged daivāt , by the superior arrangement. Daivāt. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām, sarvatra labhyate daivāt (SB 7.6.3). By the superior arrangement everywhere it is available. Either you become Lord Brahmā or you become a small ant, the process of sense gratification, arrangement is there. (aside) You can come in front. Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Professor Dr. Sukla. He has written a very favorable review on your books. *Thank you very much. (laughs) Yes, I've seen you. Thank you very much. I'm just explaining that sense gratification, different types of bodies differently . . . so that is arranged by the superior arrangement. Sarvatra labhyate daivāt . So it is available everywhere according to the body arrangement. Prahlāda Mahārāja says . . . where is that book, Prahlāda Mahārāja, Seventh Canto? Tat*-prayāso na kartavyo , don't waste your time for that purpose. Tat-prayāso na kartavyo. Why not? Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param . Simply wasting the valuable duration of life. Yata āyur-vyayaḥ. But practically we see that the whole world is spoiling the life simply for sense gratification, especially at the present moment. Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param. You can read. *Translation: "Endeavors merely for sense gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual profit. If one's endeavors are directed towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can surely attain the spiritual platform of self*-realization. There is no such benefit from engaging oneself in economic development." *This is our philosophy, and the whole world is engaged in economic development. So which is better? (laughs) Here it is said tat*-prayāso na kartavyo . We see, especially in the Western country, they are very busy for economic development, and unless one is engaged . . . I think that Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they questioned that in India, people being fatalist . . . They questioned, many people think this is a hindrance to progress. *So what is progress? In India still, in so fallen condition, we have got practical experience. If there is some arrangement . . . sometimes we arrange Hare Kṛṣṇa festival. Each day not less than twenty thousand, thirty thousand, forty thousand people come. Although these, mostly these foreigners, they are chanting, and we are speaking in English, still, to hear the kīrtana , they come from remote villages. In Calcutta I have seen. That is natural tendency of Indians. Bhārata*-bhūmi , anyone who has taken birth in India, naturally Kṛṣṇa conscious. By artificial means, they are being suppressed. Just like this Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have questioned that . . . what they have said? They said that there are many thinkers in India who consider that the Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore it doesn't encourage people to make material progress. *That economic development. Our ācāryas , practically in Indian civilization, there are so many books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big factories for economic development. You'll find Vyāsadeva has written so many books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned. Dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41,CC Adi 1.90), he dealt with these four subject matter, but not bhakti . Therefore Nārada Muni chastised him that, "You have wasted your time, simply writing on the subject matter of dharma , artha, kāma, mokṣa, catur varga ." Then, under his instruction, he wrote Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam simply on the glories of the Supreme Lord, without any attempt to write anything about dharma artha kāma mokṣa . In the beginning he introduces, gives introduction to his book, dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavo 'tra śrīmad-bhāgavate (SB 1.1.2), in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , dharma , artha , kāma , mokṣa , they are all kaitavas , cheating. These things are thrown away. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). So this kaitava , Śrīdhara Swami gives his commentary, atra mokṣa-vāñchan paryantaṁ nirastam . The desire for liberation is also rejected. Simply devotional service to the Lord. That is only business. So our, this propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is on the basis . . . it is called bhāgavata-dharma . Prahlāda Mahārāja begins his teaching that this bhāgavata-dharma should be imparted from the very beginning of life. And people are missing this opportunity. They are being allured by other business. The main business they are forgetting, neglecting, and they are being drawn, their attention is drawn, so many sporting, so many economic development, then other anarthas , drinking, gambling, slaughterhouse, so on, so on. So this is against human civilization. Therefore if you will give us some chance . . . just like you have given. What is that? Could I ask a question? I look at this room and my senses are gratified by this room, by that painting, by beautiful flowers, by the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is pleasing to my ear, and I have to feel that my senses are able to help my spirit, or else there will not be this beauty in this room. But I don't understand very well when sense gratification is helpful and when it is not. *Sense gratification is never helpful. That is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that kāmasya nendriya-prītir (SB 1.2.10). Sense gratification is required as far as . . . as little as possible. Otherwise, not for sense gratification. Just like sleeping. Sleeping is required because this material body requires some rest. But not that we shall sleep twenty-four hours or twenty hours and enjoy, as in this country sometimes they enjoy sleeping. But sleeping is wasting time. So long we shall sleep we cannot do anything good work. Therefore it should be minimized. You cannot avoid sleeping altogether. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is called tapasya , or advancement of spiritual life. Eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna . They're required. So long we have got this body, we require to eat something, we require to sleep sometimes, we require a little sense gratification, and we require defense. But it should be minimized, not increased. That is tapasya . In the human life this is possible, this is possible. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. One can conquer over these things, by practice. The more we minimize this āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna , this means we are advanced in spiritual taste. It is practice. My, my personal life, I don't sleep at night. And nowadays, at most, one hour. Yes. But I take rest in the daytime, at least two to three hours. So it is not that I am sleeping one hour. I sleep three to four hours total. But if practiced, it can be reduced, practiced. We see in the life of Gosvāmīs. About them, it is said: nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. They conquered over sleeping, eating. If we conquer over eating, then we can conquer over sleeping and other things also. If we can control over this tongue, then we can control over the other senses very easily. That is a fact. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung, tar madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati, tā 'ke jetā koṭhina saṁsāre. Of all our senses the tongue is very, very prominent. So the first thing in spiritual advancement, the first thing is to control the tongue. In the śāstra also it is said sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). Our present senses are unable to understand sri kṛṣṇa nāmādi , the holy name of the Lord. Ādi , beginning from His name, nāma , then guṇa , qualities, then pastimes, then form. So people cannot understand the form of the Lord because they are not practiced to devotional service. They are more or less impersonalists. They cannot imagine that God has His form like us, because they are not sevonmukha. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi. Not to speak of the form, they cannot understand what is the holy name of the Lord, why they are chanting, what is the benefit. They cannot understand. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). The present senses cannot appreciate. It has to be purified. That purification begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Then God reveals. When we chant the holy name of the Lord, purified, that is bhakti. Bhakti means to become purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Nirmalam means completely cleansed of all dirty things. That is bhakti . Bhakti means to engage the senses, purified senses, in the service of the Lord. At the present moment, in conditioned stage, our senses are not purified. Therefore we are very, very anxious to engage the senses for sense gratification. And when they will be purified, then these senses will be engaged for the service of Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣikeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam. God's another name is Hṛṣīkeśa, master of the senses. Actually, we have got these senses. Suppose this hand is also one of the senses, to touch. We are claiming it is my hand, but it is not my hand. It is Kṛṣṇa's hand. Kṛṣṇa has given us to use it. Just like this room is not my room. They have given me for my use. Similarly, this body, actually, it is made by Kṛṣṇa. It is a machine manufactured by the material nature under the order of Kṛṣṇa. So actually it is not my body, it is Kṛṣṇa's body. Kṛṣṇa has given us. He has given you a particular type of body, He has given me a particular type of body, so many. Yantra , machine. Just like on a machine, motorcar, we sit down and travel here and there. So we wanted to travel in a certain way so we require some machine, and Kṛṣṇa has given us this machine manufactured by material nature. *Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). So Kṛṣṇa is within the core of heart of everyone. He knows what I want. He's giving us facilities. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and He's still giving direction, "All right, you want to get this facility, sit down on it and travel as you like." So we are getting different machines. Sometimes the human body machine, sometimes dog machine, sometimes cat machine, sometimes demigod machine. We are desiring all these things. American machine, Indian machine. When you are in Indian machine you are thinking, "I am Indian. My business is to satisfy Indian interests." You Americans are thinking, "This is American machine, it should be used for America's benefit." These are upādhi. Upādhi means designation. Neither I am Indian nor American nor cat nor dog. But as soon as I get a particular type of body, I think that I am cat, I am dog, I am Indian, I am America, I am black, I am white, this. This is our position. And people are struggling on this understanding, "I am this body." So long we think like that, "I am this body," we are no better than cats and dogs. He is also thinking "I am this body." Is it not? What do you think, Mr. Sukla? If I think I am this body, the dog is also thinking "I am this body," then where is the difference between the dog and me? What do you think, Mr . . . how shall I address you? Loomis. What is the spelling? *L*-o-o-m . . . So, what is the difference if a dog is thinking that, "I am dog," on account of his body, and if I am thinking I'm an Indian on account of this body. Then where is the difference between this dog and me? He is working under the impression that he's dog, and I am working under the impression I am Indian or American. Then where is difference? Yesterday you observed this great festival under this impression that, "I am American. I must observe this independence." Is it not? What was the meaning of this festival? It was interesting to the Americans. Other nations, they are not interested. They are not observing this independence festival. But the Americans are observing. Why? Under this impression that, "I am American." This yesterday . . . Under the impression that what? Everyone is thinking that, "I am American." So if a human being is thinking "I am American," "Indian," or something like that, and if a dog is thinking "I am dog," then where is the difference between the mentalities? Of course, both, perhaps, are victim of some kind of illusion. Yes, it is illusion. That we are trying to describe. But this is going on. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," the human being is also thinking that "I am American," "I am Indian," or . . . Then, perhaps, there is no difference. *No difference. That is described in the śāstra. Yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). This body is made of . . . everyone knows what is the composition: the bones, the flesh, the blood, the urine, the stool and so on, so on. The body, what is the composition? This is the composition. So if I identify with these bones, flesh, blood, muscle, veins, and stool, urine, so I am a living entity, I am all these bones and flesh and blood? Is it better to have a human body as a machine to use than a cat's body? *Certainly, in the sense that you can utilize for higher purposes. Just like you have got this human form of body. Therefore you are sitting here to hear me. The dog has no such facility. The dog has got the same legs, hands or mouth and tongue, and so on, so on, in a different way. But it has no capacity to hear about spiritual advancement of life. Therefore the human body should be engaged not simply for sense gratification. Kāmasya nendriya*-prītir (SB 1.2.10). Find out this verse. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā . This is the business, tattva-jijñāsā. Tattva-jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is the only business. *Kāmasya nendriya*-prītir labho jīveta yāvatā (SB 1.2.10). *Labho jīveta yāvatā . You can satisfy senses as far as it is required to live. That's all. Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā . The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . That is the only business. For this machine? *All other business subordinate. That is only, because you have got this body, material body, it requires little rest, little sense gratification, little eating, little sleeping. We don't say stop it completely. That is not possible. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya , as far as it is required. As little as possible. That is spiritual advancement. If we make our progressive life engaged in understanding Kṛṣṇa instead of devoting in these unnecessary things, that is real life. That is real human life. The Vedic civilization is that. We find Vyāsadeva writing so exalted books, but life was very simple. People are, now in the modern civilization, people are accustomed only to the comforts of the body. Not for spiritual advance. That is the defect of modern civilization. (break) Śrīla Prabhupāda, no matter what material body you have, by material nature given you, one of the most predominating features of material life is pain. I want to address myself to this question, because in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we frequently face this problem. We have the pain of, for example, if you do tapasya , that's a pain to deprive your body of sense gratification. If you don't have sleep, you have to force yourself. If you have sickness, mental disturbances, so many things, then there's the other kind of pain. *That is being explained, that we don't want to stop sleeping, but minimize it. That is being already explained. We don't say complete negation. No. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya. Simply sleep as little as possible. Not that to take, just like in the Western countries, they take sleeping as enjoyment. Is it not? They call it beauty rest. In Hawaii we went by a Beautyrest Mattress store. They call it beauty rest. Not for beauty rest. (laughter) There's a kind of pain also, like when your false ego, when somebody tells you to do something or yells at you or gives you instruction. We all have this propensity to try and lord it over. When that's being denied, we feel a sense of pain, we feel like something, you know, be dejected in our service. The tendency is to want to be angry . . . Therefore you have to be trained up under proper spiritual master. You cannot work whimsically. Then it will not help. Should we always endeavor in spite of pain to push ourselves in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *There is no pain. It is painful in the beginning, but . . . everything. If you take some medicine, it is bitter, it is painful, but if it helps to cure disease, we must take it. "Because the medicine is bitter, I'll not take it." That is not sense. If you want to be cured from the disease, even the medicine is bitter, you must take. That is tapasya. Tapasya means things we are going to accept may be not very pleasing, but still we have to do it. That is tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We take bitter medicine just to cure our existence. Similarly, at the present moment, our existence is impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old age and disease on account of impure existence. Otherwise, we are spirit soul, we are eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So we are not in eternal existence, we are temporary existence. We have got this body, it will be finished. Then we have to accept another body, tatha dehāntara praptir . Then again you live in that body for some time, and again the body is finished. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). So this is going on. This is impure stage of our existence. So we have to purify it. Therefore to purify it tapasya required. Tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). The tapasya required. That tapasya has to be given lesson, trained up. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). That is brahmacārī system, to understand the value of life. These things are lacking in the present civilization, but it is essential. Without this, there is no meaning of human life. Then it is cats' and dogs' life. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). *So just we are trying to save men from this go*-kharaḥ civilization. Therefore it is not very appealing to the general mass of people. But still we have seen yesterday that as soon as we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone is attracted, everyone. You have seen yesterday? The drunkard, he was also attracted, and the child was attracted, the gray gentleman, he was also attracted, within the park. The child was dancing and the drunkard was dancing. Therefore this is the only means to elevate the modern men to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Have the writings of Vidyāpati come to attention, and if they have . . . That is very higher, not for ordinary persons. Vidyāpati's writing is meant for realized souls, not ordinary. Ordinary, they will take as love affairs between girls and boys. Therefore it is not for them. Those who are already advanced, liberated, then these love affairs of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, they will be discussed. Is there any plan of bringing those things out, publishing them, his poems and translations? It is not for ordinary. Cāṇḍīdāsa, Vidyāpati. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to discuss Jayadeva's books, Vidyāpati's books, very confidentially amongst a few devotees. Not publicly. So you think they might be misused. *Yes, they are being misused. They take Kṛṣṇa as debauch. They do not understand. Therefore the Kṛṣṇa's līlā with the gopīs, they are described in the Tenth Canto. That is also middle of Tenth Canto, and nine cantos required to understand Kṛṣṇa, beginning with janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So that is the Absolute Truth. These things should be discussed in the beginning. Then when one is fully convinced that Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with this material world, as Śaṅkarācārya said, nārāyaṇaḥ para avyaktāt, avyaktāt anna sambhava. This material world is a production . . . (break) It has to be purified. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When it is nirmalam , then it is first-class. The first process is nirmalam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam (SB 7.5.23). This process is first-class. Not all of a sudden jump over. This literature, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . that should be kept in reserve for persons who are already liberated. Otherwise it will be misunderstood. Going back to this sense question, where do you think the scheme of art fits into Kṛṣṇa conscious life? Art? *Yes, like painting, or music, or literature, poetry, like that. Because the problem is that they, if one devotes oneself to these things, they are full*-time things, they take all your energy and time. And so . . . *Devotion means to engage your energy and time for Kṛṣṇa. Anyway you do that, that is utilized. Sarvopādhi*-vinir . . . tat-paratvena. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). So if you can serve Kṛṣṇa by your hand, by painting about Kṛṣṇa, that is service. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, if you hear the chanting, that is also service. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu , about Lord Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning. Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of pleasure, ānandamayo 'byāsāt . So these things are producing ānanda . If it is in connection with Kṛṣṇa, then it is service. (aside) So, Pālikā, you can take these fruits, cut into pieces and distribute it. . . . (indistinct) Ah, yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda, what if, ah, for instance, I'm too fallen to closely follow the regulative principles and I find myself in that way . . . Just explain. *Too fallen to follow the regulative principles is like saying a diseased man is too diseased to take medicine. So it's actually in our own self interest. We have to become enlightened, to understand what our real interest is. Yajña vai viṣṇu . Now we are thinking that our real interest is to gratify the senses. This is perishable. When we come to the understanding of ātmā, ahaṁ brahmāsmi , then we understand that our real self interest is to follow these regulative principles. As Prabhupāda said, in the beginning it may be painful, undoubtedly, because we are, for so many lifetimes addicted to sense gratification, but gradually more and more ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), when the heart becomes cleansed from the dirty misidentification with this gross and subtle material body, gradually more and more it becomes favorable . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa says: "Be happy by this sacrifice." Therefore the sacrifice must be joy-producing, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Simply that because we're presently in diseased condition, it may appear to be displeasing. Prabhupāda gives the example of someone who has jaundice. In the jaundice state, when you take sugar it appears very bitter. The perception is very bitter. But everyone knows that sugar is sweet. So in the same way, the regulative principles are naturally painful for someone who is irregular. For . . . engaged in bodily identification of life. But gradually it becomes more and more pleasing. Practical. When we have Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (indistinct) . . . struggling for . . . (indistinct) . . . it has to be a struggle. What is struggle? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance and take prasādam . (devotee cheers) Is that struggle? You don't want to take it. Say that. Where is struggle? To take prasādam , nice prasādam , is struggle? (laughs) No. (laughter) You simply take prasādam , you haven't got to struggle. (laughter) But don't take anything else. Then it will be . . . (indistinct) He's not struggling, Prabhupāda. At all. He's not struggling taking prasādam . *Su*-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam. Rāja-vidyā rāja-guhyaṁ pavitram paramam idam. Su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam . Find out this verse. Śrīla Prabhupāda, the only way back to Godhead is to to attain the causeless mercy of the spiritual master. So . . . And he'll sleep. Just as your spiritual master will do for . . . (indistinct) . . . everything . . . (indistinct) . . . it is not magic. Kṛṣṇa, when He advised Arjuna, He never said that, "Arjuna, I'm your friend, God, I shall do everything . . . (indistinct) . . . you don't fight." Did He say? "You have to fight!" That's Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Not that by spiritual master's mercy . . . (indistinct) . . . you have to struggle. You have to follow the rules and regulations. Yes, what does He say? "This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed." So by struggling to overcome our senses, we can please you and obtain your mercy? Yes . . . (indistinct) *Śrīla Prabhupāda mentions in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , in the Third Canto, that a yogi is recommended to take foodstuffs, half as much as he desires, one quarter water, one quarter air, one quarter foodstuff. Is that fully recommended for a person in the the Kṛṣṇa consciousness society? If so, how can you be . . . (indistinct) . . .? *The basic principle is that—Prabhupāda mentioned earlier in this afternoon's talk—that if you can control the tongue, especially eating habits, then you'll be able to conquer other things such as sleep. Not only sleep, but also overeating produces other problems like sex desire. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha*-vegaṁ jihvā-vegam udaropastha-vegam . So jihva , the tongue and the belly, udara, upastha , genital, one straight line, like this. So there's a correlation. If one overindulges in eating, then it becomes very difficult also to conquer sex desire, which is the main attraction, or bondage within this material world, not only for the human being but for every living entity. So the principle is that if you don't overeat it will become easier for you to conquer all the senses, as Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, tongue is the most formidable of all the senses. Tāra madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudur . . . always lusting after more and more. Never satisfied. So we have to become sufficiently enlightened to regulate eating habits. This is done by taking prasādam at regular times, and gradually, intelligently you can see what you actually require. Not that everyone will require the same amount. Just like there's a plate of food so one person is big or one person is small. An elephant and an ant, both of them have different quotas. So everyone has a particular quota of prasādam they should take. Gradually by practice apart from this . . . (indistinct) . . . is required. It's common sense. There are two, two functions in the tongue, one is . . . (indistinct) . . . and one is . . . (indistinct) . . .? So which one . . . (indistinct) . . . preaching is a form of tapasya ? . . . (indistinct) *Yes, that's described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , the different austerities. The austerity of the tongue, the austerity of the mind, the austerity of the body. It is described in the Seventeenth Chapter and the, and the austerity of the tongue, of speech: It's an austerity, tapa . Austerity of speech consists of speaking truthfully, and beneficially, and then avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the *Vedas* regularly. So preaching is also control of the tongue. So our philosophy is that control doesn't mean that you stop. It's not possible. Can you stop eating? Can you stop sleeping? Can you stop different activities of going here and going there? (indistinct) . . . everyone . . . (indistinct) *But that everything should be done in relationship to Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will become purified. Hṛṣīkeśa hṛṣīkeṇa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate . When the senses are engaged for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then they're no longer . . . the senses are compared to the sharp teeth of serpents, serpents' . . . (indistinct) . . . sharp teeth are naturally very dangerous. But when engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, the shark teeth, they're broken. So they can't feel any trouble. Although we are using the senses which is the cause of bondage, these senses employed in Kṛṣṇa's service, they no longer become a source of bondage, but of liberation. (Sanskrit) Serpent is dangerous, so long he has got the fangs . . . (indistinct) . . . if the fang is taken away that means he's no more dangerous. So . . . (indistinct) . . . but if I am sure that his fangs are taken away . . . (indistinct) . . . senses are dangerous, it is compared with the serpent. (Sanskrit) But if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that (Sanskrit) the fangs are no more existing therefore it is no more dangerous. Is it true or not true that Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta said that failure is the pillar of success and if it is true, what success . . . (indistinct) . . .? I don't know exactly if Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda has used this saying . . . What is that? Failure is the pillar of success. But generally speaking, to paraphrase it, it means that we should learn from our mistakes. Hmm. That is success. If we learn our failure and try to rectify it, that is . . . (indistinct) *I asked Prabhupāda the other day, because Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says: "Forget the past, it sleeps and never the future dream at all. Live with times that are of thee, and progress thee shall call." So I asked Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it possible to forget the past? Śrīla Prabhupāda said: "No, that would not be possible, but we can think like this, that 'I have done so many foolish things,' and rectify it. Not that we should remain fools. Then what would be the value of our experience? Just like a child, he can put his finger in the fan and it hurts. So then he learns not to do it again. But if he's so dull*-headed that again and again he puts his finger in the fan . . . basically our experience from the material world should be duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). That the material world is simply a place of misery. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhī-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). That we should perceive the miseries of birth and death, disease and old age. That should be our experience in the material world. From this we should aspire for real happiness . . . (indistinct) So this . . . it explains also in the *Nectar of Instruction* that the man who may see others stealing and see others also put in jail and punished for stealing, he may have been caught himself and punished for stealing but yet he goes out and steals again. That this sticking his finger in the fan . . . again and again. Is this a symptom of the cause . . . (indistinct) . . .? *It's called durācara , misbehavior. So atonement, according to Śukadeva Gosvāmī, is not simply repenting and saying, "Oh, I'm sorry." But becoming intelligent. Atonement means coming to the platform of real intelligence. That intelligence is that, "Why I am becoming implicated in this material world, in so many ways which will simply produce more and more suffering for myself?" Just like if he steals, he knows he goes to prison, so he knows it beforehand, he's not ignorant of the fact. In this instance, one . . . he knows that if he steals, he goes to prison. So in the same way we should become intelligent and should understand the laws of nature, the laws of God. That's athāto brahma jijñāsā. Inquiry what is the real nature, what is the real nature of Brahman, how Brahman has manifested this material world and how it's going on. Then become intelligent, act for your own self*-interest, become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is explained that the intelligence is the next door neighbor of the soul, can you explain exactly what that means, Śrīla Prabhupāda? So what is his question? His question is that the intelligence, sometimes you've gone like this, I've seen, you say that the soul and the intelligence are like that, that the intelligence is very close to the soul. (indistinct) . . . the relationship between the intelligence, working in the soul. Soul is above intelligence. This is the relationship. Intelligence is above the mind, and soul is above the intelligence. Senses, then mind, then intelligence, then the soul. (indistinct) . . . matter. Yeah, subtle matter . . . (indistinct) Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur (BG 3.42). Oh, indriyāṇi parāny āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42). Manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ. *So when you engage yourself in soul's activities, then gradually your intelligence, mind, senses, become spiritualized, or original. Then material activities stop. At the present moment without being . . . (indistinct) . . . spiritually initiated . . . (indistinct) . . . we are acting on the platform of gross senses. But if we begin our activities from the opposite side, from soul side, then everything becomes spiritualized. But the question of giving up the senses, no, it has to be purified. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Senses . . . (indistinct) . . . it should be purified. At the present moment, on account of material conception of life everything is polluted with material ideas. So when it will be spiritualised, that is perfect. But instead of working uselessly, if we use our legs for going to the temple then it is spiritualized work. And instead of going to the cinema, if we go and see Deity then it is spiritual eyes. Instead of going to the restaurant, hotel, if we take prasādam , so then you spiritualize your tongue. Instead of talking nonsense, if you talk about Kṛṣṇa, then it is properly utilizing the tongue. In this way we have to practice. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Somebody is trying to stop sense activity. That is not possible. The sense activity should be cleansed. That is wanted. Otherwise how would he say hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). If you completely reject your senses then how we can serve Kṛṣṇa? It has to be purified. That is devotional service. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarnane (SB 9.4.18). Manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ , fix up your mind in Kṛṣṇa, then your talking will be purified, your walking will be purified, your handling will be purified, your hearing will be purified, everything will be purified. You cannot be desireless. But if we simply desire Kṛṣṇa, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Anyābhilāśitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). Our activities are going on on the platform of karma and jñāna . Or little more on yoga . Karma, jñāna and yoga . So one has to give up all these, karma , jñāna . The karmīs are working for sense gratification. The jñānīs are working for being liberated. The yogis are working for some magical power. Aṣṭa-siddhi . So one has to become free from all these desires. Anyābhilāsa-śūnyam, anyābhilāsa-śūnyam, jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Simply you should be prepared to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. . . (indistinct). If you are trying in different way, for sense gratification, karmīs are grossly, they want something for sense gratification . . . (indistinct) . . . they want nice car, wife, house, nice wife, nice . . . (indistinct) . . . so many things. That is karmī life. Jñānī , as they are baffled, they say, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , this endeavor for all mithyā . They take sannyasa , but after few days, again they take to the karmī's life. So that is also not good. Restless, so long you remain karmī, jñāni, yogi , restless. But when you become devotee you have no such desires, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). And then you become happy. Simply ready . . . (indistinct) . . . to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna, he after hearing Bhagavad-gītā , what was his position? His position was, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . Yes. Yes, I am now ready to do whatever You say." That is . . . (indistinct) . . . he did not become a karmī, jñāni, yogi . Simply . . . (indistinct) . . . to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat-prasādān madhusūdana. *This is wanted. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says: "You fight." He hesitated. "How can I fight? To kill my grandfather, my teacher? To kill my brother? My nephew? And so on, so on, so on. What You are advising, Kṛṣṇa, I cannot do." Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā was talked, and after learning he says: "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava ." . . . (indistinct) . . . this is perfection. He remained the same soldier. In the beginning, he was declining to fight, but at the end, he has agreed, "Yes." In the beginning it was "No." And when he was perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is "Yes." The materialist person, they are accustomed to say: "No." "No, God." When you become "Yes, God," then you are perfect. Jñānīs are "No, God." The karmīs are "No, God," yogis are "No, God," everyone, "No, God." Only the bhaktas , "Yes, God!" Yes. So that is perfect. This morning one Indian gentleman was talking about this impersonal, what was his question? . . . (indistinct) No, some gentleman was asking the question in the morning? (indistinct) . . . interpretation, that one person is interpreting in this way and another in that way, so they're saying they feel like if . . . So why they should interpret different way? What was the question? Just . . . explain to him. There was an Indian man there and he was saying that, you were presenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the philosophy very nicely, but there are others who are presenting it in an impersonal way. And they are able through the scripture to support what they say. Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . now in our . . . (indistinct) . . . you can't actually substantiate that God is impersonal, because Kṛṣṇa is a person speaking to Arjuna, so where is the question of impersonal? . . . (indistinct) . . . so Prabhupāda said it's because they're speculating and cheating, that they're interpreting it in some devious manner, rather than taking what Kṛṣṇa said, literally, as it is . . . (indistinct) Well, I have given some thought to that. I found that whenever you take an impersonal view, it becomes a pure intellectual exercise, devoid of any feeling. And if you bring feeling into that, it becomes personal. Like, I don't believe that anything can survive without feeling. So . . . *It is in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it is clearly said, bhagavān uvāca . It is never said Brahman uvāca . (laughter) People have no eyes to see. The absolute truth is realized brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). But in the Bhagavad-gītā it is never said Paramātmā uvāca . (laughter) Or Brahman uvāca. Bhagavān uvāca! Vyāsadeva, He does not say kṛṣṇa uvāca , because Kṛṣṇa will be taken, misunderstood. Therefore (Vyāsadeva) directly says, śrī bhagavān uvāca. So where is impersonal? There is no question of impersonal. He clearly says bhagavān. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Bhagavān says, "I am everything." So where is imperson? How they can bring in impersonal at all? It is simply dragging the matter. This impersonal has killed India's Vedic culture. Well, the example is that Śaṅkarācārya, who was of course . . . Śaṅkarācārya, he advised bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam , "Hey you rascal, whatever I have said, you just . . ." On the one hand he reached the height of that intellectual exercise, at the same time he realized that bhaja govindam. No. He is correct in the study. Because his mission was to stop atheism. At that time India was full of Buddhistic philosophy. Atheism. So his preaching was to stop Buddhism. Therefore, the Buddhists are śūnyavādis . So he said, "No, it is not śūnya . That is Brahman. This material world is false, . . . (indistinct) . . ." Lord Buddha said everything is false. He said: "No, the material world is false, Brahman is false, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. But he did not give any further information of Brahman. But at last he said brahma me govindaṁ brahmate bhaja govindam. There's a very nice story about this illusion. That once he was walking and someone who knew that Śaṅkarācārya preached this illusion business, was riding on an elephant, so he asked his driver, "Chase Śaṅkarācārya." And of course he did and Śaṅkarācārya started running. So this man said: "Why are you running, since this is illusion?" And he said: "So is my running." (laughter) He said: "So is my running, that's also an illusion." *But sometimes the impersonalists, they say, Prabhupāda, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is just the beginning platform, that after Kṛṣṇa consciousness then one can come to impersonal realization. They say that in the scriptures only Bhagavad*-gītā and a few scriptures teach about Kṛṣṇa but the rest of the Vedas don't even talk about Kṛṣṇa's name. So, therefore, this impersonalism is higher realization, but one comes to it, after bhakti . No. There are *Vedas* , there are so many names described. Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa by studying *Vedas* , then he has not studied *Vedas* . It is very confidential. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam ? If one has studied Veda , but has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then his labor is useless. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). If one is actually jñānavān, then he . . . (indistinct) . . . Śaṅkarācārya said bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam. That is real knowledge. But if one says that in the *Vedas* , you don't find Kṛṣṇa's name, then he has not studied Veda . Because Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). The actual purpose of studying *Vedas* means to understand Kṛṣṇa. If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). They have simply labored for nothing. Also this, another aspect was answered, the Vedic literature, all that we have today, is not a complete literature. We assume that perhaps some part of the literature has never been copied and was probably lost. So if His name doesn't occur in certain portion of *Vedas* , it doesn't mean that the name didn't occur in the *Vedas* . This is something that people have . . . No, Kṛṣṇa's name is very confidential. In the Atharva Veda , there is name, there is . . . Jīva Gosvāmī has quoted from Atharva Veda . There is Kṛṣṇa's name. And this, the best scholar of *Vedas* . . . (indistinct) . . . he says, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇa, Śaṅkarācārya. Then other ācāryas they have supported Kṛṣṇa's teachings, just like Rāmānujācārya, and . . . (indistinct) . . . he has quoted Vedic quotation, every śloka . So one has to learn the real *Vedas* , then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned," (Sanskrit). Everywhere is Kṛṣṇa's name. But one must be actually scholar in *Vedas* , then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the beginning, in the middle, and at the end." In the glorifications of Ṛg Veda . . . (indistinct) . . . example of glorifications of Kṛṣṇa there? Everything is glorification of Kṛṣṇa. Whenever Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the *Vedas* , He's mentioned as the Supreme. Some people, some scholars say: "Well, so many other demigods are mentioned far more often than Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa's mentioned to be the supermost. From the Atharva Veda , (Sanskrit). "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme." Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Either you accept this Kṛṣṇa's statement, or you reject Kṛṣṇa. But He says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat . What do you want more? Well, Prabhupādajī, if anyone has gone to *Gītā* and if he is still bothered by the historical evidence, I don't think he has read *Gītā* . Yes. So we should never really be bothered by this question of historical . . . Therefore we have concentrated on *Gītā* . This movement—when I registered this association, so when I wrote "Kṛṣṇa consciousness," some friend said: "Why don't you write 'God consciousness'?" But no, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are particularly preaching Kṛṣṇa's teaching. Kṛṣṇa is God, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But if you think that there is another God then you may do your business. We are concerned with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We cannot allow any interpretation of Kṛṣṇa. That is our propaganda . . . (indistinct) . . . (aside) Yes? There is a Swami, Gangesvaranandaji . . . (indistinct) . . . *Vedas* . . . (indistinct) . . . books that Kṛṣṇa's name in the *Vedas* is mentioned. Ah? Kṛṣṇa's name in the *Vedas* is already there. Yes. He has clearly . . . (indistinct) Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15)? The Māyāvādīs say that Vedānta is impersonal, and . . . (indistinct) . . . Vedānta . . . *You do not know what is Vedānta . . . (indistinct) . . . in the beginning of Vedānta , athāto brahma jijñāsā . "Now try to inquire about this Supreme . . . (indistinct) . . . Brahman." The next verse is janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), Brahman is there, from whom everything emanates. So now, what is that thing from which everything emanates? What is the nature of that thing? That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Bhāgavatam is the real explanation of Veda . Brahma-sūtra . . . (indistinct) . . . mahasyam brahma-sūtrānāṁ Vedasya parividyatam , this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Vedasya parividyatam . . . (indistinct) . . . avyayam, brahma-sūtrasya uvaca , by Vyāsadeva himself. Vyāsadeva is the writer of Vedānta -sūtra, so he's writing himself under the instruction of Nārada. So to understand Vedānta , you have to study Bhāgavatam . He's explained janmādy asya (SB 1.1.1). Brahman is the original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ. So what is the nature? Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca . . . (end) Conversation A -- July 5, 1976, Washington D.C. (Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla) Everyone is engaged in the business of sense gratification. Just like last night millions of men went to see the firework. So the firework, as well as the people went to see there, the expenditure was very heavy, I think, total? You mentioned that with all of the cars going and what not, it probably amounted to about ten million dollars. *Yes, that petrol. But what was the purpose? The purpose was little sense gratification, "I shall see something illuminating." What was other purpose? No purpose. Simply to satisfy the eyes, to see something illuminating. That is one sense, eyes. Then there are other senses. They also want satisfaction. There are hands, there are legs, there are tongue, eyes, ears, nose. So every one, every one of these senses, they are engaged for sense satisfaction. So this is the life. But that sense satisfaction is differently exhibited for different bodies. Just like this firework, it was interesting to the human being. Human being has got a particular type of body, so it is interested to see the firework. But the cats and dogs, they are not interested. They do not know what is fireworks. They, while we are interested to see the firework, a hog may be interested to eat stool. If he gets some stool somewhere, he'll be interested than to see the firework. So because he has got a different body, he's interested differently. We are human beings, we are interested differently. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja rightly said, deha*-yogena dehinām ( SB 7.6.3). This sense gratification, varieties, according to the varieties of the body. Deha-yogena dehinām. *But this is arranged, this different process of sense gratification is arranged daivāt , by the superior arrangement. Daivāt. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām, sarvatra labhyate daivāt (SB 7.6.3). By the superior arrangement everywhere it is available. Either you become Lord Brahmā or you become a small ant, the process of sense gratification, arrangement is there. (aside) You can come in front. Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Professor Dr. Sukla. He has written a very favorable review on your books. *Thank you very much. (laughs) Yes, I've seen you. Thank you very much. I'm just explaining that sense gratification, different types of bodies differently . . . so that is arranged by the superior arrangement. Sarvatra labhyate daivāt . So it is available everywhere according to the body arrangement. Prahlāda Mahārāja says . . . where is that book, Prahlāda Mahārāja, Seventh Canto? Tat*-prayāso na kartavyo , don't waste your time for that purpose. Tat-prayāso na kartavyo. Why not? Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param . Simply wasting the valuable duration of life. Yata āyur-vyayaḥ. But practically we see that the whole world is spoiling the life simply for sense gratification, especially at the present moment. Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param. You can read. *Translation: "Endeavors merely for sense gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual profit. If one's endeavors are directed towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can surely attain the spiritual platform of self*-realization. There is no such benefit from engaging oneself in economic development." *This is our philosophy, and the whole world is engaged in economic development. So which is better? (laughs) Here it is said tat*-prayāso na kartavyo . We see, especially in the Western country, they are very busy for economic development, and unless one is engaged . . . I think that Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they questioned that in India, people being fatalist . . . They questioned, many people think this is a hindrance to progress. *So what is progress? In India still, in so fallen condition, we have got practical experience. If there is some arrangement . . . sometimes we arrange Hare Kṛṣṇa festival. Each day not less than twenty thousand, thirty thousand, forty thousand people come. Although these, mostly these foreigners, they are chanting, and we are speaking in English, still, to hear the kīrtana , they come from remote villages. In Calcutta I have seen. That is natural tendency of Indians. Bhārata*-bhūmi , anyone who has taken birth in India, naturally Kṛṣṇa conscious. By artificial means, they are being suppressed. Just like this Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have questioned that . . . what they have said? They said that there are many thinkers in India who consider that the Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore it doesn't encourage people to make material progress. *That economic development. Our ācāryas , practically in Indian civilization, there are so many books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big factories for economic development. You'll find Vyāsadeva has written so many books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned. Dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41,CC Adi 1.90), he dealt with these four subject matter, but not bhakti . Therefore Nārada Muni chastised him that, "You have wasted your time, simply writing on the subject matter of dharma , artha, kāma, mokṣa, catur varga ." Then, under his instruction, he wrote Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam simply on the glories of the Supreme Lord, without any attempt to write anything about dharma artha kāma mokṣa . In the beginning he introduces, gives introduction to his book, dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavo 'tra śrīmad-bhāgavate (SB 1.1.2), in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , dharma , artha , kāma , mokṣa , they are all kaitavas , cheating. These things are thrown away. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). So this kaitava , Śrīdhara Swami gives his commentary, atra mokṣa-vāñchan paryantaṁ nirastam . The desire for liberation is also rejected. Simply devotional service to the Lord. That is only business. So our, this propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is on the basis . . . it is called bhāgavata-dharma . Prahlāda Mahārāja begins his teaching that this bhāgavata-dharma should be imparted from the very beginning of life. And people are missing this opportunity. They are being allured by other business. The main business they are forgetting, neglecting, and they are being drawn, their attention is drawn, so many sporting, so many economic development, then other anarthas , drinking, gambling, slaughterhouse, so on, so on. So this is against human civilization. Therefore if you will give us some chance . . . just like you have given. What is that? Could I ask a question? I look at this room and my senses are gratified by this room, by that painting, by beautiful flowers, by the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is pleasing to my ear, and I have to feel that my senses are able to help my spirit, or else there will not be this beauty in this room. But I don't understand very well when sense gratification is helpful and when it is not. *Sense gratification is never helpful. That is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that kāmasya nendriya-prītir (SB 1.2.10). Sense gratification is required as far as . . . as little as possible. Otherwise, not for sense gratification. Just like sleeping. Sleeping is required because this material body requires some rest. But not that we shall sleep twenty-four hours or twenty hours and enjoy, as in this country sometimes they enjoy sleeping. But sleeping is wasting time. So long we shall sleep we cannot do anything good work. Therefore it should be minimized. You cannot avoid sleeping altogether. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is called tapasya , or advancement of spiritual life. Eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna . They're required. So long we have got this body, we require to eat something, we require to sleep sometimes, we require a little sense gratification, and we require defense. But it should be minimized, not increased. That is tapasya . In the human life this is possible, this is possible. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. One can conquer over these things, by practice. The more we minimize this āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna , this means we are advanced in spiritual taste. It is practice. My, my personal life, I don't sleep at night. And nowadays, at most, one hour. Yes. But I take rest in the daytime, at least two to three hours. So it is not that I am sleeping one hour. I sleep three to four hours total. But if practiced, it can be reduced, practiced. We see in the life of Gosvāmīs. About them, it is said: nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. They conquered over sleeping, eating. If we conquer over eating, then we can conquer over sleeping and other things also. If we can control over this tongue, then we can control over the other senses very easily. That is a fact. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung, tar madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati, tā 'ke jetā koṭhina saṁsāre. Of all our senses the tongue is very, very prominent. So the first thing in spiritual advancement, the first thing is to control the tongue. In the śāstra also it is said sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). Our present senses are unable to understand sri kṛṣṇa nāmādi , the holy name of the Lord. Ādi , beginning from His name, nāma , then guṇa , qualities, then pastimes, then form. So people cannot understand the form of the Lord because they are not practiced to devotional service. They are more or less impersonalists. They cannot imagine that God has His form like us, because they are not sevonmukha. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi. Not to speak of the form, they cannot understand what is the holy name of the Lord, why they are chanting, what is the benefit. They cannot understand. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). The present senses cannot appreciate. It has to be purified. That purification begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Then God reveals. When we chant the holy name of the Lord, purified, that is bhakti. Bhakti means to become purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Nirmalam means completely cleansed of all dirty things. That is bhakti . Bhakti means to engage the senses, purified senses, in the service of the Lord. At the present moment, in conditioned stage, our senses are not purified. Therefore we are very, very anxious to engage the senses for sense gratification. And when they will be purified, then these senses will be engaged for the service of Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣikeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam. God's another name is Hṛṣīkeśa, master of the senses. Actually, we have got these senses. Suppose this hand is also one of the senses, to touch. We are claiming it is my hand, but it is not my hand. It is Kṛṣṇa's hand. Kṛṣṇa has given us to use it. Just like this room is not my room. They have given me for my use. Similarly, this body, actually, it is made by Kṛṣṇa. It is a machine manufactured by the material nature under the order of Kṛṣṇa. So actually it is not my body, it is Kṛṣṇa's body. Kṛṣṇa has given us. He has given you a particular type of body, He has given me a particular type of body, so many. Yantra , machine. Just like on a machine, motorcar, we sit down and travel here and there. So we wanted to travel in a certain way so we require some machine, and Kṛṣṇa has given us this machine manufactured by material nature. *Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). So Kṛṣṇa is within the core of heart of everyone. He knows what I want. He's giving us facilities. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and He's still giving direction, "All right, you want to get this facility, sit down on it and travel as you like." So we are getting different machines. Sometimes the human body machine, sometimes dog machine, sometimes cat machine, sometimes demigod machine. We are desiring all these things. American machine, Indian machine. When you are in Indian machine you are thinking, "I am Indian. My business is to satisfy Indian interests." You Americans are thinking, "This is American machine, it should be used for America's benefit." These are upādhi. Upādhi means designation. Neither I am Indian nor American nor cat nor dog. But as soon as I get a particular type of body, I think that I am cat, I am dog, I am Indian, I am America, I am black, I am white, this. This is our position. And people are struggling on this understanding, "I am this body." So long we think like that, "I am this body," we are no better than cats and dogs. He is also thinking "I am this body." Is it not? What do you think, Mr. Sukla? If I think I am this body, the dog is also thinking "I am this body," then where is the difference between the dog and me? What do you think, Mr . . . how shall I address you? Loomis. What is the spelling? *L*-o-o-m . . . So, what is the difference if a dog is thinking that, "I am dog," on account of his body, and if I am thinking I'm an Indian on account of this body. Then where is the difference between this dog and me? He is working under the impression that he's dog, and I am working under the impression I am Indian or American. Then where is difference? Yesterday you observed this great festival under this impression that, "I am American. I must observe this independence." Is it not? What was the meaning of this festival? It was interesting to the Americans. Other nations, they are not interested. They are not observing this independence festival. But the Americans are observing. Why? Under this impression that, "I am American." This yesterday . . . Under the impression that what? Everyone is thinking that, "I am American." So if a human being is thinking "I am American," "Indian," or something like that, and if a dog is thinking "I am dog," then where is the difference between the mentalities? Of course, both, perhaps, are victim of some kind of illusion. Yes, it is illusion. That we are trying to describe. But this is going on. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," the human being is also thinking that "I am American," "I am Indian," or . . . Then, perhaps, there is no difference. *No difference. That is described in the śāstra. Yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). This body is made of . . . everyone knows what is the composition: the bones, the flesh, the blood, the urine, the stool and so on, so on. The body, what is the composition? This is the composition. So if I identify with these bones, flesh, blood, muscle, veins, and stool, urine, so I am a living entity, I am all these bones and flesh and blood? Is it better to have a human body as a machine to use than a cat's body? *Certainly, in the sense that you can utilize for higher purposes. Just like you have got this human form of body. Therefore you are sitting here to hear me. The dog has no such facility. The dog has got the same legs, hands or mouth and tongue, and so on, so on, in a different way. But it has no capacity to hear about spiritual advancement of life. Therefore the human body should be engaged not simply for sense gratification. Kāmasya nendriya*-prītir (SB 1.2.10). Find out this verse. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā . This is the business, tattva-jijñāsā. Tattva-jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is the only business. *Kāmasya nendriya*-prītir labho jīveta yāvatā (SB 1.2.10). *Labho jīveta yāvatā . You can satisfy senses as far as it is required to live. That's all. Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā . The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . That is the only business. For this machine? *All other business subordinate. That is only, because you have got this body, material body, it requires little rest, little sense gratification, little eating, little sleeping. We don't say stop it completely. That is not possible. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya , as far as it is required. As little as possible. That is spiritual advancement. If we make our progressive life engaged in understanding Kṛṣṇa instead of devoting in these unnecessary things, that is real life. That is real human life. The Vedic civilization is that. We find Vyāsadeva writing so exalted books, but life was very simple. People are, now in the modern civilization, people are accustomed only to the comforts of the body. Not for spiritual advance. That is the defect of modern civilization. (break) Śrīla Prabhupāda, no matter what material body you have, by material nature given you, one of the most predominating features of material life is pain. I want to address myself to this question, because in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we frequently face this problem. We have the pain of, for example, if you do tapasya , that's a pain to deprive your body of sense gratification. If you don't have sleep, you have to force yourself. If you have sickness, mental disturbances, so many things, then there's the other kind of pain. *That is being explained, that we don't want to stop sleeping, but minimize it. That is being already explained. We don't say complete negation. No. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya. Simply sleep as little as possible. Not that to take, just like in the Western countries, they take sleeping as enjoyment. Is it not? They call it beauty rest. In Hawaii we went by a Beautyrest Mattress store. They call it beauty rest. Not for beauty rest. (laughter) There's a kind of pain also, like when your false ego, when somebody tells you to do something or yells at you or gives you instruction. We all have this propensity to try and lord it over. When that's being denied, we feel a sense of pain, we feel like something, you know, be dejected in our service. The tendency is to want to be angry . . . Therefore you have to be trained up under proper spiritual master. You cannot work whimsically. Then it will not help. Should we always endeavor in spite of pain to push ourselves in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *There is no pain. It is painful in the beginning, but . . . everything. If you take some medicine, it is bitter, it is painful, but if it helps to cure disease, we must take it. "Because the medicine is bitter, I'll not take it." That is not sense. If you want to be cured from the disease, even the medicine is bitter, you must take. That is tapasya. Tapasya means things we are going to accept may be not very pleasing, but still we have to do it. That is tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We take bitter medicine just to cure our existence. Similarly, at the present moment, our existence is impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old age and disease on account of impure existence. Otherwise, we are spirit soul, we are eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So we are not in eternal existence, we are temporary existence. We have got this body, it will be finished. Then we have to accept another body, tatha dehāntara praptir . Then again you live in that body for some time, and again the body is finished. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). So this is going on. This is impure stage of our existence. So we have to purify it. Therefore to purify it tapasya required. Tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). The tapasya required. That tapasya has to be given lesson, trained up. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). That is brahmacārī system, to understand the value of life. These things are lacking in the present civilization, but it is essential. Without this, there is no meaning of human life. Then it is cats' and dogs' life. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). *So just we are trying to save men from this go*-kharaḥ civilization. Therefore it is not very appealing to the general mass of people. But still we have seen yesterday that as soon as we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone is attracted, everyone. You have seen yesterday? The drunkard, he was also attracted, and the child was attracted, the gray gentleman, he was also attracted, within the park. The child was dancing and the drunkard was dancing. Therefore this is the only means to elevate the modern men to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Have the writings of Vidyāpati come to attention, and if they have . . . That is very higher, not for ordinary persons. Vidyāpati's writing is meant for realized souls, not ordinary. Ordinary, they will take as love affairs between girls and boys. Therefore it is not for them. Those who are already advanced, liberated, then these love affairs of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, they will be discussed. Is there any plan of bringing those things out, publishing them, his poems and translations? It is not for ordinary. Cāṇḍīdāsa, Vidyāpati. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to discuss Jayadeva's books, Vidyāpati's books, very confidentially amongst a few devotees. Not publicly. So you think they might be misused. *Yes, they are being misused. They take Kṛṣṇa as debauch. They do not understand. Therefore the Kṛṣṇa's līlā with the gopīs, they are described in the Tenth Canto. That is also middle of Tenth Canto, and nine cantos required to understand Kṛṣṇa, beginning with janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So that is the Absolute Truth. These things should be discussed in the beginning. Then when one is fully convinced that Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with this material world, as Śaṅkarācārya said, nārāyaṇaḥ para avyaktāt, avyaktāt anna sambhava. This material world is a production . . . (break) It has to be purified. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When it is nirmalam , then it is first-class. The first process is nirmalam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam (SB 7.5.23). This process is first-class. Not all of a sudden jump over. This literature, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . that should be kept in reserve for persons who are already liberated. Otherwise it will be misunderstood. Going back to this sense question, where do you think the scheme of art fits into Kṛṣṇa conscious life? Art? *Yes, like painting, or music, or literature, poetry, like that. Because the problem is that they, if one devotes oneself to these things, they are full*-time things, they take all your energy and time. And so . . . *Devotion means to engage your energy and time for Kṛṣṇa. Anyway you do that, that is utilized. Sarvopādhi*-vinir . . . tat-paratvena. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). So if you can serve Kṛṣṇa by your hand, by painting about Kṛṣṇa, that is service. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, if you hear the chanting, that is also service. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu , about Lord Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning. Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of pleasure, ānandamayo 'byāsāt . So these things are producing ānanda . If it is in connection with Kṛṣṇa, then it is service. (aside) So, Pālikā, you can take these fruits, cut into pieces and distribute it. . . . (indistinct) Ah, yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda, what if, ah, for instance, I'm too fallen to closely follow the regulative principles and I find myself in that way . . . Just explain. *Too fallen to follow the regulative principles is like saying a diseased man is too diseased to take medicine. So it's actually in our own self interest. We have to become enlightened, to understand what our real interest is. Yajña vai viṣṇu . Now we are thinking that our real interest is to gratify the senses. This is perishable. When we come to the understanding of ātmā, ahaṁ brahmāsmi , then we understand that our real self interest is to follow these regulative principles. As Prabhupāda said, in the beginning it may be painful, undoubtedly, because we are, for so many lifetimes addicted to sense gratification, but gradually more and more ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), when the heart becomes cleansed from the dirty misidentification with this gross and subtle material body, gradually more and more it becomes favorable . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa says: "Be happy by this sacrifice." Therefore the sacrifice must be joy-producing, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Simply that because we're presently in diseased condition, it may appear to be displeasing. Prabhupāda gives the example of someone who has jaundice. In the jaundice state, when you take sugar it appears very bitter. The perception is very bitter. But everyone knows that sugar is sweet. So in the same way, the regulative principles are naturally painful for someone who is irregular. For . . . engaged in bodily identification of life. But gradually it becomes more and more pleasing. Practical. When we have Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (indistinct) . . . struggling for . . . (indistinct) . . . it has to be a struggle. What is struggle? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance and take prasādam . (devotee cheers) Is that struggle? You don't want to take it. Say that. Where is struggle? To take prasādam , nice prasādam , is struggle? (laughs) No. (laughter) You simply take prasādam , you haven't got to struggle. (laughter) But don't take anything else. Then it will be . . . (indistinct) He's not struggling, Prabhupāda. At all. He's not struggling taking prasādam . *Su*-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam. Rāja-vidyā rāja-guhyaṁ pavitram paramam idam. Su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam . Find out this verse. Śrīla Prabhupāda, the only way back to Godhead is to to attain the causeless mercy of the spiritual master. So . . . And he'll sleep. Just as your spiritual master will do for . . . (indistinct) . . . everything . . . (indistinct) . . . it is not magic. Kṛṣṇa, when He advised Arjuna, He never said that, "Arjuna, I'm your friend, God, I shall do everything . . . (indistinct) . . . you don't fight." Did He say? "You have to fight!" That's Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Not that by spiritual master's mercy . . . (indistinct) . . . you have to struggle. You have to follow the rules and regulations. Yes, what does He say? "This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed." So by struggling to overcome our senses, we can please you and obtain your mercy? Yes . . . (indistinct) *Śrīla Prabhupāda mentions in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , in the Third Canto, that a yogi is recommended to take foodstuffs, half as much as he desires, one quarter water, one quarter air, one quarter foodstuff. Is that fully recommended for a person in the the Kṛṣṇa consciousness society? If so, how can you be . . . (indistinct) . . .? *The basic principle is that—Prabhupāda mentioned earlier in this afternoon's talk—that if you can control the tongue, especially eating habits, then you'll be able to conquer other things such as sleep. Not only sleep, but also overeating produces other problems like sex desire. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha*-vegaṁ jihvā-vegam udaropastha-vegam . So jihva , the tongue and the belly, udara, upastha , genital, one straight line, like this. So there's a correlation. If one overindulges in eating, then it becomes very difficult also to conquer sex desire, which is the main attraction, or bondage within this material world, not only for the human being but for every living entity. So the principle is that if you don't overeat it will become easier for you to conquer all the senses, as Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, tongue is the most formidable of all the senses. Tāra madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudur . . . always lusting after more and more. Never satisfied. So we have to become sufficiently enlightened to regulate eating habits. This is done by taking prasādam at regular times, and gradually, intelligently you can see what you actually require. Not that everyone will require the same amount. Just like there's a plate of food so one person is big or one person is small. An elephant and an ant, both of them have different quotas. So everyone has a particular quota of prasādam they should take. Gradually by practice apart from this . . . (indistinct) . . . is required. It's common sense. There are two, two functions in the tongue, one is . . . (indistinct) . . . and one is . . . (indistinct) . . .? So which one . . . (indistinct) . . . preaching is a form of tapasya ? . . . (indistinct) *Yes, that's described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , the different austerities. The austerity of the tongue, the austerity of the mind, the austerity of the body. It is described in the Seventeenth Chapter and the, and the austerity of the tongue, of speech: It's an austerity, tapa . Austerity of speech consists of speaking truthfully, and beneficially, and then avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the *Vedas* regularly. So preaching is also control of the tongue. So our philosophy is that control doesn't mean that you stop. It's not possible. Can you stop eating? Can you stop sleeping? Can you stop different activities of going here and going there? (indistinct) . . . everyone . . . (indistinct) *But that everything should be done in relationship to Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will become purified. Hṛṣīkeśa hṛṣīkeṇa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate . When the senses are engaged for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then they're no longer . . . the senses are compared to the sharp teeth of serpents, serpents' . . . (indistinct) . . . sharp teeth are naturally very dangerous. But when engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, the shark teeth, they're broken. So they can't feel any trouble. Although we are using the senses which is the cause of bondage, these senses employed in Kṛṣṇa's service, they no longer become a source of bondage, but of liberation. (Sanskrit) Serpent is dangerous, so long he has got the fangs . . . (indistinct) . . . if the fang is taken away that means he's no more dangerous. So . . . (indistinct) . . . but if I am sure that his fangs are taken away . . . (indistinct) . . . senses are dangerous, it is compared with the serpent. (Sanskrit) But if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that (Sanskrit) the fangs are no more existing therefore it is no more dangerous. Is it true or not true that Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta said that failure is the pillar of success and if it is true, what success . . . (indistinct) . . .? I don't know exactly if Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda has used this saying . . . What is that? Failure is the pillar of success. But generally speaking, to paraphrase it, it means that we should learn from our mistakes. Hmm. That is success. If we learn our failure and try to rectify it, that is . . . (indistinct) *I asked Prabhupāda the other day, because Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says: "Forget the past, it sleeps and never the future dream at all. Live with times that are of thee, and progress thee shall call." So I asked Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it possible to forget the past? Śrīla Prabhupāda said: "No, that would not be possible, but we can think like this, that 'I have done so many foolish things,' and rectify it. Not that we should remain fools. Then what would be the value of our experience? Just like a child, he can put his finger in the fan and it hurts. So then he learns not to do it again. But if he's so dull*-headed that again and again he puts his finger in the fan . . . basically our experience from the material world should be duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). That the material world is simply a place of misery. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhī-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). That we should perceive the miseries of birth and death, disease and old age. That should be our experience in the material world. From this we should aspire for real happiness . . . (indistinct) So this . . . it explains also in the *Nectar of Instruction* that the man who may see others stealing and see others also put in jail and punished for stealing, he may have been caught himself and punished for stealing but yet he goes out and steals again. That this sticking his finger in the fan . . . again and again. Is this a symptom of the cause . . . (indistinct) . . .? *It's called durācara , misbehavior. So atonement, according to Śukadeva Gosvāmī, is not simply repenting and saying, "Oh, I'm sorry." But becoming intelligent. Atonement means coming to the platform of real intelligence. That intelligence is that, "Why I am becoming implicated in this material world, in so many ways which will simply produce more and more suffering for myself?" Just like if he steals, he knows he goes to prison, so he knows it beforehand, he's not ignorant of the fact. In this instance, one . . . he knows that if he steals, he goes to prison. So in the same way we should become intelligent and should understand the laws of nature, the laws of God. That's athāto brahma jijñāsā. Inquiry what is the real nature, what is the real nature of Brahman, how Brahman has manifested this material world and how it's going on. Then become intelligent, act for your own self*-interest, become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is explained that the intelligence is the next door neighbor of the soul, can you explain exactly what that means, Śrīla Prabhupāda? So what is his question? His question is that the intelligence, sometimes you've gone like this, I've seen, you say that the soul and the intelligence are like that, that the intelligence is very close to the soul. (indistinct) . . . the relationship between the intelligence, working in the soul. Soul is above intelligence. This is the relationship. Intelligence is above the mind, and soul is above the intelligence. Senses, then mind, then intelligence, then the soul. (indistinct) . . . matter. Yeah, subtle matter . . . (indistinct) Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur (BG 3.42). Oh, indriyāṇi parāny āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42). Manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ. *So when you engage yourself in soul's activities, then gradually your intelligence, mind, senses, become spiritualized, or original. Then material activities stop. At the present moment without being . . . (indistinct) . . . spiritually initiated . . . (indistinct) . . . we are acting on the platform of gross senses. But if we begin our activities from the opposite side, from soul side, then everything becomes spiritualized. But the question of giving up the senses, no, it has to be purified. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Senses . . . (indistinct) . . . it should be purified. At the present moment, on account of material conception of life everything is polluted with material ideas. So when it will be spiritualised, that is perfect. But instead of working uselessly, if we use our legs for going to the temple then it is spiritualized work. And instead of going to the cinema, if we go and see Deity then it is spiritual eyes. Instead of going to the restaurant, hotel, if we take prasādam , so then you spiritualize your tongue. Instead of talking nonsense, if you talk about Kṛṣṇa, then it is properly utilizing the tongue. In this way we have to practice. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Somebody is trying to stop sense activity. That is not possible. The sense activity should be cleansed. That is wanted. Otherwise how would he say hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). If you completely reject your senses then how we can serve Kṛṣṇa? It has to be purified. That is devotional service. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarnane (SB 9.4.18). Manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ , fix up your mind in Kṛṣṇa, then your talking will be purified, your walking will be purified, your handling will be purified, your hearing will be purified, everything will be purified. You cannot be desireless. But if we simply desire Kṛṣṇa, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Anyābhilāśitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). Our activities are going on on the platform of karma and jñāna . Or little more on yoga . Karma, jñāna and yoga . So one has to give up all these, karma , jñāna . The karmīs are working for sense gratification. The jñānīs are working for being liberated. The yogis are working for some magical power. Aṣṭa-siddhi . So one has to become free from all these desires. Anyābhilāsa-śūnyam, anyābhilāsa-śūnyam, jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Simply you should be prepared to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. . . (indistinct). If you are trying in different way, for sense gratification, karmīs are grossly, they want something for sense gratification . . . (indistinct) . . . they want nice car, wife, house, nice wife, nice . . . (indistinct) . . . so many things. That is karmī life. Jñānī , as they are baffled, they say, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , this endeavor for all mithyā . They take sannyasa , but after few days, again they take to the karmī's life. So that is also not good. Restless, so long you remain karmī, jñāni, yogi , restless. But when you become devotee you have no such desires, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). And then you become happy. Simply ready . . . (indistinct) . . . to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna, he after hearing Bhagavad-gītā , what was his position? His position was, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . Yes. Yes, I am now ready to do whatever You say." That is . . . (indistinct) . . . he did not become a karmī, jñāni, yogi . Simply . . . (indistinct) . . . to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat-prasādān madhusūdana. *This is wanted. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says: "You fight." He hesitated. "How can I fight? To kill my grandfather, my teacher? To kill my brother? My nephew? And so on, so on, so on. What You are advising, Kṛṣṇa, I cannot do." Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā was talked, and after learning he says: "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava ." . . . (indistinct) . . . this is perfection. He remained the same soldier. In the beginning, he was declining to fight, but at the end, he has agreed, "Yes." In the beginning it was "No." And when he was perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is "Yes." The materialist person, they are accustomed to say: "No." "No, God." When you become "Yes, God," then you are perfect. Jñānīs are "No, God." The karmīs are "No, God," yogis are "No, God," everyone, "No, God." Only the bhaktas , "Yes, God!" Yes. So that is perfect. This morning one Indian gentleman was talking about this impersonal, what was his question? . . . (indistinct) No, some gentleman was asking the question in the morning? (indistinct) . . . interpretation, that one person is interpreting in this way and another in that way, so they're saying they feel like if . . . So why they should interpret different way? What was the question? Just . . . explain to him. There was an Indian man there and he was saying that, you were presenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the philosophy very nicely, but there are others who are presenting it in an impersonal way. And they are able through the scripture to support what they say. Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . now in our . . . (indistinct) . . . you can't actually substantiate that God is impersonal, because Kṛṣṇa is a person speaking to Arjuna, so where is the question of impersonal? . . . (indistinct) . . . so Prabhupāda said it's because they're speculating and cheating, that they're interpreting it in some devious manner, rather than taking what Kṛṣṇa said, literally, as it is . . . (indistinct) Well, I have given some thought to that. I found that whenever you take an impersonal view, it becomes a pure intellectual exercise, devoid of any feeling. And if you bring feeling into that, it becomes personal. Like, I don't believe that anything can survive without feeling. So . . . *It is in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it is clearly said, bhagavān uvāca . It is never said Brahman uvāca . (laughter) People have no eyes to see. The absolute truth is realized brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). But in the Bhagavad-gītā it is never said Paramātmā uvāca . (laughter) Or Brahman uvāca. Bhagavān uvāca! Vyāsadeva, He does not say kṛṣṇa uvāca , because Kṛṣṇa will be taken, misunderstood. Therefore (Vyāsadeva) directly says, śrī bhagavān uvāca. So where is impersonal? There is no question of impersonal. He clearly says bhagavān. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Bhagavān says, "I am everything." So where is imperson? How they can bring in impersonal at all? It is simply dragging the matter. This impersonal has killed India's Vedic culture. Well, the example is that Śaṅkarācārya, who was of course . . . Śaṅkarācārya, he advised bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam , "Hey you rascal, whatever I have said, you just . . ." On the one hand he reached the height of that intellectual exercise, at the same time he realized that bhaja govindam. No. He is correct in the study. Because his mission was to stop atheism. At that time India was full of Buddhistic philosophy. Atheism. So his preaching was to stop Buddhism. Therefore, the Buddhists are śūnyavādis . So he said, "No, it is not śūnya . That is Brahman. This material world is false, . . . (indistinct) . . ." Lord Buddha said everything is false. He said: "No, the material world is false, Brahman is false, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. But he did not give any further information of Brahman. But at last he said brahma me govindaṁ brahmate bhaja govindam. There's a very nice story about this illusion. That once he was walking and someone who knew that Śaṅkarācārya preached this illusion business, was riding on an elephant, so he asked his driver, "Chase Śaṅkarācārya." And of course he did and Śaṅkarācārya started running. So this man said: "Why are you running, since this is illusion?" And he said: "So is my running." (laughter) He said: "So is my running, that's also an illusion." *But sometimes the impersonalists, they say, Prabhupāda, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is just the beginning platform, that after Kṛṣṇa consciousness then one can come to impersonal realization. They say that in the scriptures only Bhagavad*-gītā and a few scriptures teach about Kṛṣṇa but the rest of the Vedas don't even talk about Kṛṣṇa's name. So, therefore, this impersonalism is higher realization, but one comes to it, after bhakti . No. There are *Vedas* , there are so many names described. Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa by studying *Vedas* , then he has not studied *Vedas* . It is very confidential. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam ? If one has studied Veda , but has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then his labor is useless. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). If one is actually jñānavān, then he . . . (indistinct) . . . Śaṅkarācārya said bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam. That is real knowledge. But if one says that in the *Vedas* , you don't find Kṛṣṇa's name, then he has not studied Veda . Because Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). The actual purpose of studying *Vedas* means to understand Kṛṣṇa. If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). They have simply labored for nothing. Also this, another aspect was answered, the Vedic literature, all that we have today, is not a complete literature. We assume that perhaps some part of the literature has never been copied and was probably lost. So if His name doesn't occur in certain portion of *Vedas* , it doesn't mean that the name didn't occur in the *Vedas* . This is something that people have . . . No, Kṛṣṇa's name is very confidential. In the Atharva Veda , there is name, there is . . . Jīva Gosvāmī has quoted from Atharva Veda . There is Kṛṣṇa's name. And this, the best scholar of *Vedas* . . . (indistinct) . . . he says, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇa, Śaṅkarācārya. Then other ācāryas they have supported Kṛṣṇa's teachings, just like Rāmānujācārya, and . . . (indistinct) . . . he has quoted Vedic quotation, every śloka . So one has to learn the real *Vedas* , then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned," (Sanskrit). Everywhere is Kṛṣṇa's name. But one must be actually scholar in *Vedas* , then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the beginning, in the middle, and at the end." In the glorifications of Ṛg Veda . . . (indistinct) . . . example of glorifications of Kṛṣṇa there? Everything is glorification of Kṛṣṇa. Whenever Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the *Vedas* , He's mentioned as the Supreme. Some people, some scholars say: "Well, so many other demigods are mentioned far more often than Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa's mentioned to be the supermost. From the Atharva Veda , (Sanskrit). "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme." Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Either you accept this Kṛṣṇa's statement, or you reject Kṛṣṇa. But He says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat . What do you want more? Well, Prabhupādajī, if anyone has gone to *Gītā* and if he is still bothered by the historical evidence, I don't think he has read *Gītā* . Yes. So we should never really be bothered by this question of historical . . . Therefore we have concentrated on *Gītā* . This movement—when I registered this association, so when I wrote "Kṛṣṇa consciousness," some friend said: "Why don't you write 'God consciousness'?" But no, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are particularly preaching Kṛṣṇa's teaching. Kṛṣṇa is God, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But if you think that there is another God then you may do your business. We are concerned with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We cannot allow any interpretation of Kṛṣṇa. That is our propaganda . . . (indistinct) . . . (aside) Yes? There is a Swami, Gangesvaranandaji . . . (indistinct) . . . *Vedas* . . . (indistinct) . . . books that Kṛṣṇa's name in the *Vedas* is mentioned. Ah? Kṛṣṇa's name in the *Vedas* is already there. Yes. He has clearly . . . (indistinct) Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15)? The Māyāvādīs say that Vedānta is impersonal, and . . . (indistinct) . . . Vedānta . . . *You do not know what is Vedānta . . . (indistinct) . . . in the beginning of Vedānta , athāto brahma jijñāsā . "Now try to inquire about this Supreme . . . (indistinct) . . . Brahman." The next verse is janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), Brahman is there, from whom everything emanates. So now, what is that thing from which everything emanates? What is the nature of that thing? That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Bhāgavatam is the real explanation of Veda . Brahma-sūtra . . . (indistinct) . . . mahasyam brahma-sūtrānāṁ Vedasya parividyatam , this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Vedasya parividyatam . . . (indistinct) . . . avyayam, brahma-sūtrasya uvaca , by Vyāsadeva himself. Vyāsadeva is the writer of Vedānta -sūtra, so he's writing himself under the instruction of Nārada. So to understand Vedānta , you have to study Bhāgavatam . He's explained janmādy asya (SB 1.1.1). Brahman is the original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ. So what is the nature? Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca . . . (end) Conversation A -- July 6, 1976, Washington D.C. You economically prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is simple and inexpensive life. Yes, jaya . Mercy. Food, diet, living condition, healthy, hygienic, everything. You prove that this is the best way of life. That's a fact. From all sides, prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential for the human society, to make them happy in this life and next life. And that is a fact. Prabhupāda? Today I want to discuss about the manifestation of matter from pradhāna . Now Lord Kapiladeva describes that pradhāna is the undifferentiated sum total of all material elements. *Hmm. Mahat*-tattva ? *No, pradhāna . Then from pradhāna , by the action of time this mahat*-tattva is generated. Now we were a little confused about that. He said by the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency there is hiraṇmaya, hiraṇmaya is produced within mahat-tattva , and this hiraṇmaya is self-effulgent. Hmm? It's effulgent. Hiraṇmaya ? Effulgent. Oh, effulgent, yes. *Now our point is whether this hiraṇmaya . . . in the mahat*-tattva , the relationship between these two and pradhāna , how does that relate each other? It's not very clear in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . We're not very clear, this point. It said from pradhāna , by the impregnation with the Lord's internal potency, the hiraṇmaya is produced. That's actually the beginning of the injection of jīvas within these material modes. *Yes, it is little complicated. So is it not clear from the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ? It is little difficult to understand the phenomenal descriptions. *In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, nityānanda-tattva ? You can read it, you'll get some clue. *We also get some clue from First Canto, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , in the puruṣa incarnations, where it explains about tattva . But there is a difference between . . . now our understanding is this: pradhāna , both pradhāna and mahat-tattva , they are eternal, though they are material manifestations. Everything eternal. No, eternal in the sense that it's different from prakṛti . Now prakṛti is, when it is completely manifested . . . Prakṛti, pradhāna, puruṣa, these things are little complicated. But we wanted to clarify this, because this is the nice thing that we can show that matter comes from life. This is the source. *Yes. Sa īkṣata, sa asṛjata , by the glance of Mahā*-Viṣṇu . . . eko nārāyaṇa āsīt. In the beginning, Nārāyaṇa was there. There was no Lord Śiva, no neither Brahmā. This mantra was there. So originally, by the glance . . . By the glance of Viṣṇu. We can prove it that how by the sunshine everything is growing, how it is. Your molecule and so on, so on, you can describe. Actually, from the sunshine the trees are growing, leaves are coming. As soon as there is no sunshine, immediately they fall down, the leaves, and the tree becomes without any leaves. How this happens? The same process. The sunshine produces so many things. Similarly, by the glance of the Supreme, the material nature becomes agitated and the three guṇas become manifest. In this way these are described there. The same process. How from the sunshine the leaves are coming out, what are the molecular changes, if you can study the same process. *(indistinct) . . . with this hiraṇmaya , the relationship between mahat*-tattva and the hiraṇmaya is clear, then I think at least we can have some idea. So we are little confused on this very point, that it is also said pradhāna is the twenty-four elements that doesn't contain time. Pradhāna is the ingredient. *Yes, it is the sum total of the unmanifested material elements. Now from pradhāna actually mahat*-tattva is manifested. In mahat-tattva there is a basic difference that there is some . . . already some manifestations in mahat-tattva . Categories. *Total material elements, mahat*-tattva . Is that differentiated? *Mahat*-tattva is differentiated. Different categories? *No, the time element is there in mahat*-tattva , so it is already twenty-five elements there including time. At this stage also, the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency means that the jīvas are already impregnated here from pradhāna . So here the living entities are in pure goodness. *The living entities are always in pure goodness. This material covering is separated. The living entities can be freed from material covering at any moment. Just like water and oil, it is always separated—it does not mix. The Vedic mantra also says, asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. Actually, it is not mixed, but it is covered. Such covering can be taken away at any moment simply by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate ( BG 14.26). I think in First Canto, that description you try to understand, you'll get. *Now in the First Canto in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam also it is not very clear. *Then Second Canto, the development of sṛṣṭi*-tattva , there you'll get. *I think there is also reference in the Bhagavad*-gītā , this Hiraṇmaya, because sometimes it's also called Brahman. Brahmajyoti . What? Brahman. *Brahman, yes. He's called Hiraṇya*-garbha, Brahmā. *Hiraṇya*-garbha. It's also said in this state, pradhāna state, the cause and effect are not clearly manifested. *Caitanya caritāmṛta , did you refer nityānanda*-tattva ? No, I haven't studied that yet. Read it, you'll get clue there. Maybe in the Third Chapter. Bring up here. We shall . . . first part, take it. *Ādi*-līlā ? First part, take it. Chapter Three? In Muslim country, Christians, or the Americans preaching Hindu religion, it has been taken very seriously in Iran. Three different elements: preaching center is Muhammadan, and the preacher an American, and the cult Hindu. (laughs) So the princess of Iran and her husband, they are, up to date, they are very much appreciating. The daughter of Shah. What is the verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda? No, you read the Contents. Or the index maybe. No. No, the Summary. *Chapter Three. "In this chapter the author has fully discussed the reason for the descent of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, after displaying His pastimes as Lord Kṛṣṇa, thought it wise to make His advent in the form of a devotee to explain personally the transcendental mellow reciprocations of service and the love between Himself and His servants, friends, parents and fiancees. According to the Vedic literature, the foremost occupational duty for humanity in this age of Kali is nāma*-saṅkīrtana , or congregational chanting of the holy name of the Lord. The incarnation for this age especially preaches this process, but only Kṛṣṇa Himself can explain the confidential loving service performed in the four principal varieties of loving affairs between the Supreme Lord and His devotees. Lord Kṛṣṇa therefore personally appeared, with His plenary portions, as Lord Caitanya. As stated in this chapter, only for that purpose did Lord Kṛṣṇa appear personally in Navadvīpa in the form of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja has herein presented much authentic evidence from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and other scriptures to substantiate the identity of . . ." *You are reading Caitanya Mahāprabhu. About Nityānanda, see the Contents? No, in the beginning. Chapter where is Contents. Nityānanda*-tattva . *"The Glories of Lord Nityānanda*-Balarāma." Fifth Chapter? *Yeah. "This chapter is chiefly devoted to describing the essential nature and the glories of Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the Absolute Personality of Godhead, and His first expansion in a form for pastimes is Śrī Balarāma. Beyond the limitation of this material world is the spiritual sky, paravyoma , which has many spiritual planets, the supreme of which is called Kṛṣṇaloka. Kṛṣṇaloka, the abode of Kṛṣṇa, has three divisions, which are known as Dvārakā, Mathurā and Gokula. In that abode that Personality of Godhead expands Himself into four plenary portions—Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma, Pradyumna (the transcendental Cupid) and Aniruddha. They are known as the original quadruple forms. In Kṛṣṇaloka is a transcendental place known as Śvetadvīpa, or Vṛndāvana. Below Kṛṣṇaloka, in the spiritual sky, are the Vaikuṇṭha planets. On each Vaikuṇṭha planet a four*-handed Nārāyaṇa, expanded from the first quadruple manifestation, is present. The Personality of Godhead known as Śrī Balarāma in Kṛṣṇaloka is the original Saṅkarṣaṇa (attracting Deity), and from this Saṅkarṣaṇa expands another Saṅkarṣaṇa, called Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa, who resides in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. By His internal potency, Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa maintains the transcendental existence of all the planets in the spiritual sky, where all the living beings are eternally liberated souls. The influence of the material energy is conspicuous there by its absence. On those planets the second quadruple manifestation is present. Outside of the Vaikuṇṭha planets is the impersonal manifestation of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, which is known as the Brahmaloka. On the other side of the Brahmaloka is the spiritual kāraṇa-samudra , or Causal Ocean. The material energy exists on the other side of the Causal Ocean, without touching it. In the Causal Ocean is Mahā-Viṣṇu, the original puruṣa expansion from Saṅkarṣaṇa. This Mahā-Viṣṇu places His glance over the material energy, and by a reflection of His transcendental body He amalgamates Himself within the material elements. As the source of the material elements, the material energy is known as pradhāna , and as the source of the manifestations of the material energy it is known as māyā . But material nature is inert in that she has no independent power to do anything. She is empowered to make the cosmic manifestation by the glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Therefore the material energy is not the original cause of the material manifestation. Rather, the transcendental glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu over the material nature produces that cosmic manifestation." So you try to understand this, everything will be clear. Material energy has no power to create. It is this glance that makes material energy energetic. Chemical combination, that alkaline and acid, they create some agitation, effervescence, but it is done by the chemist. He mixes the two liquids, and there is effervescence. It is like that. So you read that chapter carefully, you'll solve your problem. (pause) *It's said in the mahat*-tattva when the Lord glances or impregnates, that the glancing . . . That is spiritual. Yes, it's still spiritual. *That glancing is spiritual. So matter itself cannot do anything. Aja*-jala-stana , it has been given. Aja-jala-stana , the nipples in the throat, neck. As there are some nipples, nipples useless, that is not milk-giving nipples. So nature is creating. They, generally, they say: "By nature," but nature has no power. It is matter. When there is glance of Saṅkarṣaṇa or Viṣṇu, that will do. In that state, when a living entity's impregnated in this state, it is also said that it is in pure goodness. Pure goodness always. It is simply covered. This is not the completely manifested yet, but then it says by the contamination of pure goodness by ahaṅkāra , then starts material ego. From there, everything is going to manifest. So once we come to material ego then it seems clear. *That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out, puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi . . . "The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species." (pause) How does the contaminated ego or contaminated consciousness differ from false ego? Hmm? That is contaminated ego, false ego. But we have a subdivision in the Third Canto for internal subtle senses. It is said mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness, and this ego is false ego, and another division is contaminated consciousness. This is false ego, "I am this matter. I am this body." This is false ego. Yes, but why it is . . . Ego is there, but this is false ego. Then by association with the modes there is contaminated consciousness. This false ego develops. *But still in this verse on Chapter Twenty*-six, verse fourteen, it says there are four internal subtle senses. Now these four senses are mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness. Is that real ego, the soul? But how can it be the senses? Here we are. "The internal subtle senses are experienced as having four aspects in the shape of mind, intelligence, ego and contaminated consciousness. Distinctions between them can be made only by different functions, since they represent different characteristics." Purport: "The four internal senses or subtle senses described herein are defined by different characteristics. When pure consciousness is polluted by material contamination, and identification with the body becomes predominant, this is called false ego. Consciousness is the function of the soul, and therefore behind consciousness there is soul. When consciousness is polluted by material contamination, this is called ahaṅkāra ." *Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . The same thing. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-sthaḥ bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). Is this ego mentioned here, is it a false ego? That's what I understand. Not real. Real ego is "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Is there false ego in different modes? Like false ego in the mode of ignorance, false in the mode of passion or goodness? Yes. So the consciousness can be contaminated according to the mode in which it's associating. *Yes, prakṛti*-jān guṇān. Yes. So I am identifying with my body in any mode, that is false ego. But my consciousness is contaminated by a particular mode—may be passion, may be ignorance, may be goodness. So then my consciousness is contaminated. So false ego is the base of all material activities, but I may be acting in a certain mode, contaminated in a certain way. Is that right? Yes. That is what it means. Everything clear, these four internal subtle senses? Yes. What else you got? Actually, consciousness is a symptom of life, so when we say contaminated consciousness, the quality of life is there, but somehow that . . . That is mixed with material modes. Yes. Originally it is goodness. Very . . . pure goodness, you say. Originally in the beginning is . . . I give the example, just like water falling from the sky. It is crystal clear, distilled water. But as soon as touches the earth, it becomes muddy. But that muddiness can be filtered. Plus muddiness is the character of the mud, not the consciousness. And it can be cleansed, filtered out. Yes, that filtering process is devotional service. So unless the water is different from the precipitated matter, how it can be filtered? So far we are concerned, prakṛti is clear, but the source of prakṛti is little, ah . . . so we'll try to . . . we want to show this, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our chapter on some sort of creation, creation of material manifestation. You'll get this from Second Canto. *Second Canto. That's that "First Step in Self*-Realization" chapter? Fifth chapter, sixth chapter—two chapters. Atra sargo visargaś ca (SB 2.10.1), that verse, Second Canto, you find out. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is matter generated within a given body, like the body of a human being? While it's living, is matter generated and annihilated within that body during the time of life? Body is matter. Whole body is combination of matter. Right. But does the living entity within, or the Supersoul . . . Yes, within. Does it generate matter, so say the body could get heavier or lighter because of that? Because the living entity is there, matter is generated. Just like a tree, living entity is there, and big log, wood, is generated. Like that stone. That stone is increasing its weight, so when someone goes to see the stone he sees, ah, the stone is bigger and heavier also. So that increased material or matter that makes up the bigger size of the stone, is that matter being generated from the soul? Yes. From the spirit soul. So spirit soul has power . . . Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Ah! Similarly, from the spirit soul everything has come out. So spirit soul can create matter. Actually, from life matter is generated. Jaya . Not from matter life is generated. That is wrong. There are some people who have done measurements and . . . Measurement is there in the Vedic literature, Upaniṣad, Purāṇa . Is it that the living entity, when he creates this matter to expand, like the stone is growing, does he manufacture this material from the etheric platform, or does he . . . According to his desire he can. Simply by desiring. What is that one verse? Icchā dveṣaḥ samutthena sarge yānti . . . *There have been some . . . modern scientists have done some experiments showing that in the soil there are organisms, micro*-organisms and earthworms, that can produce chemicals, increasing just simply by their presence. Yes. I have given that example; already he has mentioned. Pasteur? No, no, this lemon. A lemon tree. A lemon tree is producing chemicals. Some people would say the lemon tree was simply taking food and rearranging it to produce the lemon juice. Yes. But the tree is the source, but everything is there in the earth. But God's creation is so nice that through the tree the chemical is coming. The chemical is there in the earth, but the seed of the lemon tree, when it grows, it extracts the particular type of chemical. We were wondering then if also it could produce matter, instead of taking from the earth and rearranging it. *No, earth is the source of everything. Sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī (SB 1.10.4), you get from . . . actually you are getting all chemicals from the earth. So they are already there. Yes. Created by Kṛṣṇa. Yes. The . . . (indistinct) . . . is there. He's trying to mention an experiment in science. There's a man called . . . That is your duty, to mention . . . He tries to show that the living system . . . *No, if we can see practically different seeds are exacting different color, different flavor, different chemicals. Everything is coming from the earth, sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī . Everything is coming. So the plant . . . Simply outside arrangement, how to take it. So in other words, the tree or the plant in agriculture takes the chemicals from the soil and . . . The seed, as soon as come in touch with the earth, the seed exacts particular chemical and everything from there. This is the arrangement. So that spirit soul in the seed, he is not creating anything; he is taking. Spirit soul, according to his karma , takes shelter of the situation. But the seed, the chemical composition, exacts the desired. It's all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Yes. Can the seed do that without the spirit soul being present within the seed? Huh? Can the seed extract anything without the spirit soul being present there? *No. Seed is instrumental. Just like you have to do something, you require an instrument. Actually, according to the desires of the living entity, he's given instrument, bhrāmayan sarva*-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). Yantra . You require something, you require a particular yantra or machine. So seed is practically the machine, and the living entity is using it to satisfy his desires. So that growth of matter, that's the matter is coming from outside, and the spirit soul is simply taking it and expanding his body. Yes. Is earth still being manifested from ether? Like the description in *Bhāgavatam* is from sound, and then through different elements finally down to earth. Is that still happening today? Every . . . always happening. Nature's law is going on. Yes. So what I was wondering, is like earth still being manifested in living bodies from sound and so on, like the chemists . . . No, no. The process is going on. I've described. That is going on. So the spirit soul is in the seed, and the seed interacts with the other chemicals to make growth. So if the chemicals are not there in the earth, then that seed cannot make those chemicals. No, chemical is there in the earth. According to the seed it is exacted. Just like a chemist will analyze or they separate the ingredient, so much this percentage, so much that percentage, so much that. Everything is there. Similarly, within the earth everything is there. The seed is the instrument and the living entity is the exactor—what is that? Exactor? Yes. He's executor. He takes, utilizes. *Utilizer. Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). Extracts. Extracts from. Extracts. Suppose like now, just like this Vedic injunction against artificial fertilizers in the soil, suppose, as modern farmers are doing, they use this artificial fertilizer and the soil becomes depleted in certain minerals. That means artificial is the same principle. You are living entity; by artificial fertilizer you are exacting something from the earth, the same principle. Now suppose we take so many chemicals from the earth and they may become a little depleted. Can those chemicals be replaced by the earth itself as the ongoing process of nature? Everything is coming from the earth. That is . . . Sadāpūta has an interesting point in science itself, that somebody tried to show that in the living body, when the life is within matter, the, ah, it doesn't follow the conservation of matter. Science, one of the basic principles of science, is that . . . No, no. All the living conditions are there in the matter, provided there is the living being, that's all. Just like a dead body, it is not that the living condition is finished. No. The living conditions are there. That particular soul has left that body, but the dead body is also full of ingredients of living condition. So many germs are coming out when the body is decomposed. You say decomposition, but even in that decomposed condition there is living condition. So the living conditions are already there, matter in any form. So how these rascals say there is no life in the moon planet? That is not possible. The living conditions are always there in the matter. This is the example. Now, a decomposed body, the living being has left, now it is dead matter, but still, the living beings are coming out. How it is? That means matter has always the potency to give shelter to the living entity. So it is impossible that there is no living being in the moon planet. It is bogus. We cannot accept it. Any condition there is provision for the living beings. We see actually, in the earth, in the air, in the water, in the fire, these five elements. Whatever you take, these five elements in different proportions. So the living . . . just like from perspiration living entities come out. It is impossible there is no living entities. That is bogus complete. You can challenge like that. The living entities that they are familiar with. *That is another thing. Kūpa*-māṇḍūkya-nyāya, again. They know some certain type of living entities, that's all. So they think that all the living entities would be like that. *That is their kūpa*-māṇḍūkya-nyāya , Dr. Frog. But the fact is, any condition of material existence, there is possibility of living entity there. Sarva-ga, sthāṇur, acalo'yaṁ sarva-ga. Everywhere there is living entity. It is impossible to conclude that on other planets there is no living entity. It is not possible. Is it possible to do some experiments? You experiment. You see a dead body. It is obnoxious smelling, but living entities coming. No, to show that matter is generated by life, we want to do some experiment. That is there. Every day we are experiencing, huh? Just the same seed, and a living entity comes and it becomes a tree and it grows, big tree, huge body. And as soon as it is dead, the body is not increasing. This is experiment. (break) You mean two things. You mean that . . . *Everything is coming from life. Kṛṣṇa says—He's the supreme life—He says, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva*-samanvitāḥ (BG 10.8). He's the origin of everything, both matter and life, everything. So matter also coming from life, life is also coming from life. Therefore life is the original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So janmādy asya yataḥ is life. That is explained in the Bhāgavata. Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ. That source of everything is life and is fully conscious of everything what is happening. Anvayāt , indirectly and directly, fully conscious. That is life. So that matter is coming from Kṛṣṇa originally. Everything is coming from Him. Then the spirit soul, he has his activities, and he's active and the matter . . . He may be inactive, but his subtle desires is active. That is creating. Matter is supplying, that is pradhāna of life. So he creates the situation for the matter, but he doesn't create the matter itself. Yes. He wants, "I want this," and God is there, He asks material energy to supply the ingredients, and he creates the different situation. (break) That's all. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you very much, Prabhupāda. (indistinct comments) (end) Conversation A -- July 6, 1976, Washington D.C. You economically prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is simple and inexpensive life. Yes, jaya . Mercy. Food, diet, living condition, healthy, hygienic, everything. You prove that this is the best way of life. That's a fact. From all sides, prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential for the human society, to make them happy in this life and next life. And that is a fact. Prabhupāda? Today I want to discuss about the manifestation of matter from pradhāna . Now Lord Kapiladeva describes that pradhāna is the undifferentiated sum total of all material elements. *Hmm. Mahat*-tattva ? *No, pradhāna . Then from pradhāna , by the action of time this mahat*-tattva is generated. Now we were a little confused about that. He said by the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency there is hiraṇmaya, hiraṇmaya is produced within mahat-tattva , and this hiraṇmaya is self-effulgent. Hmm? It's effulgent. Hiraṇmaya ? Effulgent. Oh, effulgent, yes. *Now our point is whether this hiraṇmaya . . . in the mahat*-tattva , the relationship between these two and pradhāna , how does that relate each other? It's not very clear in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . We're not very clear, this point. It said from pradhāna , by the impregnation with the Lord's internal potency, the hiraṇmaya is produced. That's actually the beginning of the injection of jīvas within these material modes. *Yes, it is little complicated. So is it not clear from the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ? It is little difficult to understand the phenomenal descriptions. *In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, nityānanda-tattva ? You can read it, you'll get some clue. *We also get some clue from First Canto, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , in the puruṣa incarnations, where it explains about tattva . But there is a difference between . . . now our understanding is this: pradhāna , both pradhāna and mahat-tattva , they are eternal, though they are material manifestations. Everything eternal. No, eternal in the sense that it's different from prakṛti . Now prakṛti is, when it is completely manifested . . . Prakṛti, pradhāna, puruṣa, these things are little complicated. But we wanted to clarify this, because this is the nice thing that we can show that matter comes from life. This is the source. *Yes. Sa īkṣata, sa asṛjata , by the glance of Mahā*-Viṣṇu . . . eko nārāyaṇa āsīt. In the beginning, Nārāyaṇa was there. There was no Lord Śiva, no neither Brahmā. This mantra was there. So originally, by the glance . . . By the glance of Viṣṇu. We can prove it that how by the sunshine everything is growing, how it is. Your molecule and so on, so on, you can describe. Actually, from the sunshine the trees are growing, leaves are coming. As soon as there is no sunshine, immediately they fall down, the leaves, and the tree becomes without any leaves. How this happens? The same process. The sunshine produces so many things. Similarly, by the glance of the Supreme, the material nature becomes agitated and the three guṇas become manifest. In this way these are described there. The same process. How from the sunshine the leaves are coming out, what are the molecular changes, if you can study the same process. *(indistinct) . . . with this hiraṇmaya , the relationship between mahat*-tattva and the hiraṇmaya is clear, then I think at least we can have some idea. So we are little confused on this very point, that it is also said pradhāna is the twenty-four elements that doesn't contain time. Pradhāna is the ingredient. *Yes, it is the sum total of the unmanifested material elements. Now from pradhāna actually mahat*-tattva is manifested. In mahat-tattva there is a basic difference that there is some . . . already some manifestations in mahat-tattva . Categories. *Total material elements, mahat*-tattva . Is that differentiated? *Mahat*-tattva is differentiated. Different categories? *No, the time element is there in mahat*-tattva , so it is already twenty-five elements there including time. At this stage also, the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency means that the jīvas are already impregnated here from pradhāna . So here the living entities are in pure goodness. *The living entities are always in pure goodness. This material covering is separated. The living entities can be freed from material covering at any moment. Just like water and oil, it is always separated—it does not mix. The Vedic mantra also says, asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. Actually, it is not mixed, but it is covered. Such covering can be taken away at any moment simply by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate ( BG 14.26). I think in First Canto, that description you try to understand, you'll get. *Now in the First Canto in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam also it is not very clear. *Then Second Canto, the development of sṛṣṭi*-tattva , there you'll get. *I think there is also reference in the Bhagavad*-gītā , this Hiraṇmaya, because sometimes it's also called Brahman. Brahmajyoti . What? Brahman. *Brahman, yes. He's called Hiraṇya*-garbha, Brahmā. *Hiraṇya*-garbha. It's also said in this state, pradhāna state, the cause and effect are not clearly manifested. *Caitanya caritāmṛta , did you refer nityānanda*-tattva ? No, I haven't studied that yet. Read it, you'll get clue there. Maybe in the Third Chapter. Bring up here. We shall . . . first part, take it. *Ādi*-līlā ? First part, take it. Chapter Three? In Muslim country, Christians, or the Americans preaching Hindu religion, it has been taken very seriously in Iran. Three different elements: preaching center is Muhammadan, and the preacher an American, and the cult Hindu. (laughs) So the princess of Iran and her husband, they are, up to date, they are very much appreciating. The daughter of Shah. What is the verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda? No, you read the Contents. Or the index maybe. No. No, the Summary. *Chapter Three. "In this chapter the author has fully discussed the reason for the descent of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, after displaying His pastimes as Lord Kṛṣṇa, thought it wise to make His advent in the form of a devotee to explain personally the transcendental mellow reciprocations of service and the love between Himself and His servants, friends, parents and fiancees. According to the Vedic literature, the foremost occupational duty for humanity in this age of Kali is nāma*-saṅkīrtana , or congregational chanting of the holy name of the Lord. The incarnation for this age especially preaches this process, but only Kṛṣṇa Himself can explain the confidential loving service performed in the four principal varieties of loving affairs between the Supreme Lord and His devotees. Lord Kṛṣṇa therefore personally appeared, with His plenary portions, as Lord Caitanya. As stated in this chapter, only for that purpose did Lord Kṛṣṇa appear personally in Navadvīpa in the form of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja has herein presented much authentic evidence from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and other scriptures to substantiate the identity of . . ." *You are reading Caitanya Mahāprabhu. About Nityānanda, see the Contents? No, in the beginning. Chapter where is Contents. Nityānanda*-tattva . *"The Glories of Lord Nityānanda*-Balarāma." Fifth Chapter? *Yeah. "This chapter is chiefly devoted to describing the essential nature and the glories of Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the Absolute Personality of Godhead, and His first expansion in a form for pastimes is Śrī Balarāma. Beyond the limitation of this material world is the spiritual sky, paravyoma , which has many spiritual planets, the supreme of which is called Kṛṣṇaloka. Kṛṣṇaloka, the abode of Kṛṣṇa, has three divisions, which are known as Dvārakā, Mathurā and Gokula. In that abode that Personality of Godhead expands Himself into four plenary portions—Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma, Pradyumna (the transcendental Cupid) and Aniruddha. They are known as the original quadruple forms. In Kṛṣṇaloka is a transcendental place known as Śvetadvīpa, or Vṛndāvana. Below Kṛṣṇaloka, in the spiritual sky, are the Vaikuṇṭha planets. On each Vaikuṇṭha planet a four*-handed Nārāyaṇa, expanded from the first quadruple manifestation, is present. The Personality of Godhead known as Śrī Balarāma in Kṛṣṇaloka is the original Saṅkarṣaṇa (attracting Deity), and from this Saṅkarṣaṇa expands another Saṅkarṣaṇa, called Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa, who resides in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. By His internal potency, Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa maintains the transcendental existence of all the planets in the spiritual sky, where all the living beings are eternally liberated souls. The influence of the material energy is conspicuous there by its absence. On those planets the second quadruple manifestation is present. Outside of the Vaikuṇṭha planets is the impersonal manifestation of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, which is known as the Brahmaloka. On the other side of the Brahmaloka is the spiritual kāraṇa-samudra , or Causal Ocean. The material energy exists on the other side of the Causal Ocean, without touching it. In the Causal Ocean is Mahā-Viṣṇu, the original puruṣa expansion from Saṅkarṣaṇa. This Mahā-Viṣṇu places His glance over the material energy, and by a reflection of His transcendental body He amalgamates Himself within the material elements. As the source of the material elements, the material energy is known as pradhāna , and as the source of the manifestations of the material energy it is known as māyā . But material nature is inert in that she has no independent power to do anything. She is empowered to make the cosmic manifestation by the glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Therefore the material energy is not the original cause of the material manifestation. Rather, the transcendental glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu over the material nature produces that cosmic manifestation." So you try to understand this, everything will be clear. Material energy has no power to create. It is this glance that makes material energy energetic. Chemical combination, that alkaline and acid, they create some agitation, effervescence, but it is done by the chemist. He mixes the two liquids, and there is effervescence. It is like that. So you read that chapter carefully, you'll solve your problem. (pause) *It's said in the mahat*-tattva when the Lord glances or impregnates, that the glancing . . . That is spiritual. Yes, it's still spiritual. *That glancing is spiritual. So matter itself cannot do anything. Aja*-jala-stana , it has been given. Aja-jala-stana , the nipples in the throat, neck. As there are some nipples, nipples useless, that is not milk-giving nipples. So nature is creating. They, generally, they say: "By nature," but nature has no power. It is matter. When there is glance of Saṅkarṣaṇa or Viṣṇu, that will do. In that state, when a living entity's impregnated in this state, it is also said that it is in pure goodness. Pure goodness always. It is simply covered. This is not the completely manifested yet, but then it says by the contamination of pure goodness by ahaṅkāra , then starts material ego. From there, everything is going to manifest. So once we come to material ego then it seems clear. *That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out, puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi . . . "The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species." (pause) How does the contaminated ego or contaminated consciousness differ from false ego? Hmm? That is contaminated ego, false ego. But we have a subdivision in the Third Canto for internal subtle senses. It is said mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness, and this ego is false ego, and another division is contaminated consciousness. This is false ego, "I am this matter. I am this body." This is false ego. Yes, but why it is . . . Ego is there, but this is false ego. Then by association with the modes there is contaminated consciousness. This false ego develops. *But still in this verse on Chapter Twenty*-six, verse fourteen, it says there are four internal subtle senses. Now these four senses are mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness. Is that real ego, the soul? But how can it be the senses? Here we are. "The internal subtle senses are experienced as having four aspects in the shape of mind, intelligence, ego and contaminated consciousness. Distinctions between them can be made only by different functions, since they represent different characteristics." Purport: "The four internal senses or subtle senses described herein are defined by different characteristics. When pure consciousness is polluted by material contamination, and identification with the body becomes predominant, this is called false ego. Consciousness is the function of the soul, and therefore behind consciousness there is soul. When consciousness is polluted by material contamination, this is called ahaṅkāra ." *Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . The same thing. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-sthaḥ bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). Is this ego mentioned here, is it a false ego? That's what I understand. Not real. Real ego is "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Is there false ego in different modes? Like false ego in the mode of ignorance, false in the mode of passion or goodness? Yes. So the consciousness can be contaminated according to the mode in which it's associating. *Yes, prakṛti*-jān guṇān. Yes. So I am identifying with my body in any mode, that is false ego. But my consciousness is contaminated by a particular mode—may be passion, may be ignorance, may be goodness. So then my consciousness is contaminated. So false ego is the base of all material activities, but I may be acting in a certain mode, contaminated in a certain way. Is that right? Yes. That is what it means. Everything clear, these four internal subtle senses? Yes. What else you got? Actually, consciousness is a symptom of life, so when we say contaminated consciousness, the quality of life is there, but somehow that . . . That is mixed with material modes. Yes. Originally it is goodness. Very . . . pure goodness, you say. Originally in the beginning is . . . I give the example, just like water falling from the sky. It is crystal clear, distilled water. But as soon as touches the earth, it becomes muddy. But that muddiness can be filtered. Plus muddiness is the character of the mud, not the consciousness. And it can be cleansed, filtered out. Yes, that filtering process is devotional service. So unless the water is different from the precipitated matter, how it can be filtered? So far we are concerned, prakṛti is clear, but the source of prakṛti is little, ah . . . so we'll try to . . . we want to show this, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our chapter on some sort of creation, creation of material manifestation. You'll get this from Second Canto. *Second Canto. That's that "First Step in Self*-Realization" chapter? Fifth chapter, sixth chapter—two chapters. Atra sargo visargaś ca (SB 2.10.1), that verse, Second Canto, you find out. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is matter generated within a given body, like the body of a human being? While it's living, is matter generated and annihilated within that body during the time of life? Body is matter. Whole body is combination of matter. Right. But does the living entity within, or the Supersoul . . . Yes, within. Does it generate matter, so say the body could get heavier or lighter because of that? Because the living entity is there, matter is generated. Just like a tree, living entity is there, and big log, wood, is generated. Like that stone. That stone is increasing its weight, so when someone goes to see the stone he sees, ah, the stone is bigger and heavier also. So that increased material or matter that makes up the bigger size of the stone, is that matter being generated from the soul? Yes. From the spirit soul. So spirit soul has power . . . Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Ah! Similarly, from the spirit soul everything has come out. So spirit soul can create matter. Actually, from life matter is generated. Jaya . Not from matter life is generated. That is wrong. There are some people who have done measurements and . . . Measurement is there in the Vedic literature, Upaniṣad, Purāṇa . Is it that the living entity, when he creates this matter to expand, like the stone is growing, does he manufacture this material from the etheric platform, or does he . . . According to his desire he can. Simply by desiring. What is that one verse? Icchā dveṣaḥ samutthena sarge yānti . . . *There have been some . . . modern scientists have done some experiments showing that in the soil there are organisms, micro*-organisms and earthworms, that can produce chemicals, increasing just simply by their presence. Yes. I have given that example; already he has mentioned. Pasteur? No, no, this lemon. A lemon tree. A lemon tree is producing chemicals. Some people would say the lemon tree was simply taking food and rearranging it to produce the lemon juice. Yes. But the tree is the source, but everything is there in the earth. But God's creation is so nice that through the tree the chemical is coming. The chemical is there in the earth, but the seed of the lemon tree, when it grows, it extracts the particular type of chemical. We were wondering then if also it could produce matter, instead of taking from the earth and rearranging it. *No, earth is the source of everything. Sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī (SB 1.10.4), you get from . . . actually you are getting all chemicals from the earth. So they are already there. Yes. Created by Kṛṣṇa. Yes. The . . . (indistinct) . . . is there. He's trying to mention an experiment in science. There's a man called . . . That is your duty, to mention . . . He tries to show that the living system . . . *No, if we can see practically different seeds are exacting different color, different flavor, different chemicals. Everything is coming from the earth, sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī . Everything is coming. So the plant . . . Simply outside arrangement, how to take it. So in other words, the tree or the plant in agriculture takes the chemicals from the soil and . . . The seed, as soon as come in touch with the earth, the seed exacts particular chemical and everything from there. This is the arrangement. So that spirit soul in the seed, he is not creating anything; he is taking. Spirit soul, according to his karma , takes shelter of the situation. But the seed, the chemical composition, exacts the desired. It's all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Yes. Can the seed do that without the spirit soul being present within the seed? Huh? Can the seed extract anything without the spirit soul being present there? *No. Seed is instrumental. Just like you have to do something, you require an instrument. Actually, according to the desires of the living entity, he's given instrument, bhrāmayan sarva*-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). Yantra . You require something, you require a particular yantra or machine. So seed is practically the machine, and the living entity is using it to satisfy his desires. So that growth of matter, that's the matter is coming from outside, and the spirit soul is simply taking it and expanding his body. Yes. Is earth still being manifested from ether? Like the description in *Bhāgavatam* is from sound, and then through different elements finally down to earth. Is that still happening today? Every . . . always happening. Nature's law is going on. Yes. So what I was wondering, is like earth still being manifested in living bodies from sound and so on, like the chemists . . . No, no. The process is going on. I've described. That is going on. So the spirit soul is in the seed, and the seed interacts with the other chemicals to make growth. So if the chemicals are not there in the earth, then that seed cannot make those chemicals. No, chemical is there in the earth. According to the seed it is exacted. Just like a chemist will analyze or they separate the ingredient, so much this percentage, so much that percentage, so much that. Everything is there. Similarly, within the earth everything is there. The seed is the instrument and the living entity is the exactor—what is that? Exactor? Yes. He's executor. He takes, utilizes. *Utilizer. Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). Extracts. Extracts from. Extracts. Suppose like now, just like this Vedic injunction against artificial fertilizers in the soil, suppose, as modern farmers are doing, they use this artificial fertilizer and the soil becomes depleted in certain minerals. That means artificial is the same principle. You are living entity; by artificial fertilizer you are exacting something from the earth, the same principle. Now suppose we take so many chemicals from the earth and they may become a little depleted. Can those chemicals be replaced by the earth itself as the ongoing process of nature? Everything is coming from the earth. That is . . . Sadāpūta has an interesting point in science itself, that somebody tried to show that in the living body, when the life is within matter, the, ah, it doesn't follow the conservation of matter. Science, one of the basic principles of science, is that . . . No, no. All the living conditions are there in the matter, provided there is the living being, that's all. Just like a dead body, it is not that the living condition is finished. No. The living conditions are there. That particular soul has left that body, but the dead body is also full of ingredients of living condition. So many germs are coming out when the body is decomposed. You say decomposition, but even in that decomposed condition there is living condition. So the living conditions are already there, matter in any form. So how these rascals say there is no life in the moon planet? That is not possible. The living conditions are always there in the matter. This is the example. Now, a decomposed body, the living being has left, now it is dead matter, but still, the living beings are coming out. How it is? That means matter has always the potency to give shelter to the living entity. So it is impossible that there is no living being in the moon planet. It is bogus. We cannot accept it. Any condition there is provision for the living beings. We see actually, in the earth, in the air, in the water, in the fire, these five elements. Whatever you take, these five elements in different proportions. So the living . . . just like from perspiration living entities come out. It is impossible there is no living entities. That is bogus complete. You can challenge like that. The living entities that they are familiar with. *That is another thing. Kūpa*-māṇḍūkya-nyāya, again. They know some certain type of living entities, that's all. So they think that all the living entities would be like that. *That is their kūpa*-māṇḍūkya-nyāya , Dr. Frog. But the fact is, any condition of material existence, there is possibility of living entity there. Sarva-ga, sthāṇur, acalo'yaṁ sarva-ga. Everywhere there is living entity. It is impossible to conclude that on other planets there is no living entity. It is not possible. Is it possible to do some experiments? You experiment. You see a dead body. It is obnoxious smelling, but living entities coming. No, to show that matter is generated by life, we want to do some experiment. That is there. Every day we are experiencing, huh? Just the same seed, and a living entity comes and it becomes a tree and it grows, big tree, huge body. And as soon as it is dead, the body is not increasing. This is experiment. (break) You mean two things. You mean that . . . *Everything is coming from life. Kṛṣṇa says—He's the supreme life—He says, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva*-samanvitāḥ (BG 10.8). He's the origin of everything, both matter and life, everything. So matter also coming from life, life is also coming from life. Therefore life is the original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So janmādy asya yataḥ is life. That is explained in the Bhāgavata. Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ. That source of everything is life and is fully conscious of everything what is happening. Anvayāt , indirectly and directly, fully conscious. That is life. So that matter is coming from Kṛṣṇa originally. Everything is coming from Him. Then the spirit soul, he has his activities, and he's active and the matter . . . He may be inactive, but his subtle desires is active. That is creating. Matter is supplying, that is pradhāna of life. So he creates the situation for the matter, but he doesn't create the matter itself. Yes. He wants, "I want this," and God is there, He asks material energy to supply the ingredients, and he creates the different situation. (break) That's all. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you very much, Prabhupāda. (indistinct comments) (end) Conversation A -- July 7, 1976, Baltimore . . . bora bora phet, lanka dinga ke matta kare het It was translated by a Mr. Row, a professor in the Presidency College, he translated, "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." When the problems of life is read, then they are melancholy, all these big, big scientists. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Hanumān, one monkey, he jumped over the Ceylon. So other monkeys also, they were very much proud that a monkey jumped over the ocean. And as soon as he was challenged, "Can you jump over?" melancholy. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Big, big monkey, big, big belly. These are the translation by Mr. Row, a professor of English in Presidency College. So what is the proposal now? We want to discuss about the journal that we are proposing to have from the Institute. *So Ravīndra*-svarūpa Prabhu is going to be the editor, you approved in Māyāpur. We were thinking if you could give us some idea for a title. Because we were thinking so far that we would have a subtitle, like we have "Back to Godhead" then we have "the Magazine of the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement." So we would have the subtitle, "Bhaktivedanta Institute" or "Journal of the Bhaktivedanta Institute," but maybe you would like to have a title of the journal. So we wanted to know if you had some hint. *Yes. You can title, entitle, Sa*-vijñāna . *Sa*-vijñāna ? Oh. *Jñānaṁ me paramaṁ guhyaṁ yad vijñāna*-samanvitam. What is that Bhagavad-gītā verse? Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ pravakṣyāmi tad vijñānam . . . Yes. Seventh Chapter. That is good, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That is a very nice title. What about a subtitle? "I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge, both phenomenal and noumenal, by knowing which there shall remain nothing further to be known." Yes. Nothing further to be known. *Sa*-vijñānam *Sa*-vijñānam . So we can say " Sa-vijñānam , Journal of the Bhaktivedanta Institute." Is that all right? *Yes. Sa*-vijñānam. Do we need some sort of translation maybe? On the inside cover we can have this verse . . . You can give this verse. Give the verse on the inside. That can be the motto. Is that nice title? Scientific. Yes, sound very . . . It's a very good title. So in this journal we can publish from different disciplines of knowledge, from any branch of knowledge and principle. Science, philosophy, economics, sociology. For the scholarly, academic community. *Yes, socially you can preach how this cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), how it is scientific. In the society, if there is . . . actually we have. Just like why these, maybe so-called scientists, but why the scientists are given so much importance? Because there is a brain. So if you make everyone equal, all śūdras , then who will be the brain? The brain is required. That is brāhmaṇa . So this, not this brain; *this brain is śūdra brain for everyone. But when the . . . but just like here is Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, or you are here. So you are not scientist from the very birth. You have been trained up how to become a scientist. Similarly, the birth is there. Whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. But you have to be trained up how to become first*-class brain. That is brāhmaṇa . You have to become truthful, you have to become controller of the senses, you have to become fully aware of things, of God, everything, full knowledge, then you become brain. People give scientists so much importance because there is brain. Brain, in the society, there must be brain. So without brain, how the society can go on? If you simply produce motor mechanic, then? *Brain must be there. Just like this is brain: Sanātana Gosvāmī is asking, ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa*-traya . This is brain. "I don't want some uncomfortable situation, but why it is enforced?" So when you make research into that, that is brain. And if we remain like animal, "All right, they are dragging me to the slaughterhouse, that's all right, let me go," that is not brain. Brain means that I am seeking after perfect happiness; *why I am not allowed to have this perfect happiness? That is brain. The question, if there is any remedy. They are doing this. Scientific brain means there are so many problems, they are trying to solve it. That requires brain. But because they are fool scientists, they do not know how to make a solution of the ultimate problem. They are making tiny problems, that's all. There is power shortage: all right, let us invent some substitute of petroleum. Brain is being taxed. Again it is finished, again another. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). But they are so dull brain, they do not raise the question that we are making solution of one problem, another problem is ready. That brain they have not. So how long we shall go on solving the problems, another problem, another problem? Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). He does not know that nature will not allow me to live peacefully. So we bring problems after problems. That is material life. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī . Everything is there. You discuss only Bhagavad-gītā , you'll get so many subject matter to think and write. This is brain. We are solving one problem; another problem is there. So why this is happening? If there is any situation without any problem? That is brain. We had another practical consideration. We were thinking that could BBT publish the journal? BBT would publish the journal? But whether you'll be able to publish regularly. Quarterly, at the beginning. Four times a year. Every three months. *Because it must be very . . . sa*-vijñānam, it must be very scientific. Oh, yes. Without defect. That's all right, BBT will publish. Why not? We can provide the copying work and all the graphs and things, and then they would lay it out and do everything, like with your books. Oh, yes. Just like other things. And it will be BBT property. That's all. Your property. We can also do it for the books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't it? It will be published by BBT, but coming out from Bhaktivedanta Institute. That will be good for the Institute if the name is on that book. That's all right. From Bhaktivedanta publisher. Yes, that's all right. You can do something like that, there is no harm. But this world is a problem, but we want solution of the problem but we do not know how to solve it. Is it not? Do the scientists know? They are trying. (laughter) Not a single problem they have solved. Can you cite that this big problem they have solved? In fact you have said that they are creating a new problem each time. That is the nature. You cannot solve the problem. You will create problem. If you don't live natural life, then you will create problem. Just like the other than . . . creatures, other than human beings, they have no problem, because they are living naturally. So our human beings should also live natural life. Then his only problem is this birth, death, old age, and . . . that he will be able to solve. That is the difference. The birds and beasts, they are living natural life, but they have no capacity to solve the problem. They are living a natural life. But the human being has the capacity to solve the problem. Real problem is birth, death, old age and disease. But they do not touch the real problem. Hmm? They avoid it because they cannot solve it. They keep it for the future. They postpone. That is postdated check. "You take this million dollar check." "When shall I use it?" "After millions year you can cash it." This kind of propaganda no sane man will accept. That's like chemical evolution. Million years it will happen. Billion. Yes, in a million years. *Then the answer is the chicken is better than you. He can give you life within seven days. Dr. Chicken is better. They are shameless. Not ordinary, because ordinary human being will become shameful to speak something nonsense. But they are shameless. In that Bengali, duḥkhānkata . One man, one ear was cut off. So in order to hide his cut*-off ear he was keeping this side to the river side and this side to the habitation side and then again his two ears were cut out. Then there is no question of hiding. Both of them were cut out. So these people are duḥkhānkata . When both the ears cut out, there is no shame. They will go on talking all nonsense. Because they accept, they are accepted. So many millions of years have passed in the history, nobody could do that, and they are giving hope that life will come after millions of years. Why million? Here is a chicken, he can give life within five days. What credit you'll get after millions of years? But they are duḥkhānkata , so shameless they can speak such nonsense and still pass on as scientists. Tibocham , I think. Duḥkhānkata . No shame. You do not feel that why you are talking nonsense. Am I right or wrong? Here is a chicken, insignificant animal, he is giving life within five days, and we are talking of millions of years, and still we are scientist, Dr. Frog. We are going to use that example in our preaching. And the thing is that these person, they are holding the . . . andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). A blind man, he has no eyes, and still, he's leader of other blind men. Is it possible? A blind man, he is blind man, he has no knowledge, and still, he's leading other blind men. This is a very dangerous position. He has no actually knowledge, simply speculating, putting theories and formulas, and they are leaders of the society. We have to stop this. Yes, otherwise people are misled. It is not the duty of education to mislead people. The real knowledge should be given. They should know that. To become a great misleader and take some title, that is not good. The other morning you were . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda was mentioning about the Institute, the Bhaktivedanta Institute. So is there anything else that Your Divine Grace wants to . . .? Institute, you have got sufficient subject matter as I was describing, this original source of life and the planetary system, as you are going to make planetarium. Who can say about so many planets in the sky? Who has got sufficient knowledge? They cannot even give . . . they think that moon is the nearest planet, but we do not think like that. But still they are unable to give sufficient knowledge about the moon. It is not vacant. It cannot be vacant. We don't find any part of the world vacant. There is living entities. This earth planet is part of the universe, and the moon is also part of the universe. If it is not vacant, how that can be vacant? You have got dust there, here we have got dust—you have got rocks there, here we have got rocks. And why it is vacant? We find in the dust also there is life. When we walk on the beach, it is simply sand, there are so many crabs. They are immediately flying, running, "Oh, here is a man coming. Enter into the hole." So even the dust, in the sand, there is life. So why not there? In the water there is life, within the sand there is life, in the air there is life—everywhere there is life. Why it should be vacant? Hmm? What is the opinion of the scientists? How . . .? We are layman, talking like layman, but why there should not be life? And in the śāstra we get there is life. Not only moon; *every planet is full of living entities. Jagat*-kīrṇa . There is human being, there is animal, everything. How it can be vacant, God's creation? They say they cannot see, so . . . See . . . you cannot see your father; that does not means there is no father who begot you. That is no . . . they cannot see . . . do they say like that? They cannot see that, so they cannot prove by experiment, so . . . What experiment? Just from experience also. They go and look, and that's all they can do. They want to go and see for themselves, so they say they have gone to the moon planet, and they say: "We have not found life." We say you have not gone. I have not seen you, that you have gone there; you say only. How can I believe? They show you pictures, and it was on the TV. That is also, you have made picture. I have not gone and seen that. How can I believe you? The same argument. You say that you have gone to moon planet, but I have not seen that you have gone there. How can I believe you? Is there some other way we can argue with them, Prabhupāda? No, no, that's . . . answer this question, that you say you have not seen. I say yes, that's all right, because you did not see, therefore you don't believe. But I did not see you also that you have gone to moon planet. How can I believe you? How is it possible to deceive so many people? Whether it is not possible or possible, but if you put this argument, that I have not seen, that I can say that I have . . . (end) Conversation A -- July 7, 1976, Baltimore . . . bora bora phet, lanka dinga ke matta kare het It was translated by a Mr. Row, a professor in the Presidency College, he translated, "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." When the problems of life is read, then they are melancholy, all these big, big scientists. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Hanumān, one monkey, he jumped over the Ceylon. So other monkeys also, they were very much proud that a monkey jumped over the ocean. And as soon as he was challenged, "Can you jump over?" melancholy. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Big, big monkey, big, big belly. These are the translation by Mr. Row, a professor of English in Presidency College. So what is the proposal now? We want to discuss about the journal that we are proposing to have from the Institute. *So Ravīndra*-svarūpa Prabhu is going to be the editor, you approved in Māyāpur. We were thinking if you could give us some idea for a title. Because we were thinking so far that we would have a subtitle, like we have "Back to Godhead" then we have "the Magazine of the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement." So we would have the subtitle, "Bhaktivedanta Institute" or "Journal of the Bhaktivedanta Institute," but maybe you would like to have a title of the journal. So we wanted to know if you had some hint. *Yes. You can title, entitle, Sa*-vijñāna . *Sa*-vijñāna ? Oh. *Jñānaṁ me paramaṁ guhyaṁ yad vijñāna*-samanvitam. What is that Bhagavad-gītā verse? Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ pravakṣyāmi tad vijñānam . . . Yes. Seventh Chapter. That is good, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That is a very nice title. What about a subtitle? "I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge, both phenomenal and noumenal, by knowing which there shall remain nothing further to be known." Yes. Nothing further to be known. *Sa*-vijñānam *Sa*-vijñānam . So we can say " Sa-vijñānam , Journal of the Bhaktivedanta Institute." Is that all right? *Yes. Sa*-vijñānam. Do we need some sort of translation maybe? On the inside cover we can have this verse . . . You can give this verse. Give the verse on the inside. That can be the motto. Is that nice title? Scientific. Yes, sound very . . . It's a very good title. So in this journal we can publish from different disciplines of knowledge, from any branch of knowledge and principle. Science, philosophy, economics, sociology. For the scholarly, academic community. *Yes, socially you can preach how this cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), how it is scientific. In the society, if there is . . . actually we have. Just like why these, maybe so-called scientists, but why the scientists are given so much importance? Because there is a brain. So if you make everyone equal, all śūdras , then who will be the brain? The brain is required. That is brāhmaṇa . So this, not this brain; *this brain is śūdra brain for everyone. But when the . . . but just like here is Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, or you are here. So you are not scientist from the very birth. You have been trained up how to become a scientist. Similarly, the birth is there. Whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. But you have to be trained up how to become first*-class brain. That is brāhmaṇa . You have to become truthful, you have to become controller of the senses, you have to become fully aware of things, of God, everything, full knowledge, then you become brain. People give scientists so much importance because there is brain. Brain, in the society, there must be brain. So without brain, how the society can go on? If you simply produce motor mechanic, then? *Brain must be there. Just like this is brain: Sanātana Gosvāmī is asking, ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa*-traya . This is brain. "I don't want some uncomfortable situation, but why it is enforced?" So when you make research into that, that is brain. And if we remain like animal, "All right, they are dragging me to the slaughterhouse, that's all right, let me go," that is not brain. Brain means that I am seeking after perfect happiness; *why I am not allowed to have this perfect happiness? That is brain. The question, if there is any remedy. They are doing this. Scientific brain means there are so many problems, they are trying to solve it. That requires brain. But because they are fool scientists, they do not know how to make a solution of the ultimate problem. They are making tiny problems, that's all. There is power shortage: all right, let us invent some substitute of petroleum. Brain is being taxed. Again it is finished, again another. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). But they are so dull brain, they do not raise the question that we are making solution of one problem, another problem is ready. That brain they have not. So how long we shall go on solving the problems, another problem, another problem? Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). He does not know that nature will not allow me to live peacefully. So we bring problems after problems. That is material life. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī . Everything is there. You discuss only Bhagavad-gītā , you'll get so many subject matter to think and write. This is brain. We are solving one problem; another problem is there. So why this is happening? If there is any situation without any problem? That is brain. We had another practical consideration. We were thinking that could BBT publish the journal? BBT would publish the journal? But whether you'll be able to publish regularly. Quarterly, at the beginning. Four times a year. Every three months. *Because it must be very . . . sa*-vijñānam, it must be very scientific. Oh, yes. Without defect. That's all right, BBT will publish. Why not? We can provide the copying work and all the graphs and things, and then they would lay it out and do everything, like with your books. Oh, yes. Just like other things. And it will be BBT property. That's all. Your property. We can also do it for the books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't it? It will be published by BBT, but coming out from Bhaktivedanta Institute. That will be good for the Institute if the name is on that book. That's all right. From Bhaktivedanta publisher. Yes, that's all right. You can do something like that, there is no harm. But this world is a problem, but we want solution of the problem but we do not know how to solve it. Is it not? Do the scientists know? They are trying. (laughter) Not a single problem they have solved. Can you cite that this big problem they have solved? In fact you have said that they are creating a new problem each time. That is the nature. You cannot solve the problem. You will create problem. If you don't live natural life, then you will create problem. Just like the other than . . . creatures, other than human beings, they have no problem, because they are living naturally. So our human beings should also live natural life. Then his only problem is this birth, death, old age, and . . . that he will be able to solve. That is the difference. The birds and beasts, they are living natural life, but they have no capacity to solve the problem. They are living a natural life. But the human being has the capacity to solve the problem. Real problem is birth, death, old age and disease. But they do not touch the real problem. Hmm? They avoid it because they cannot solve it. They keep it for the future. They postpone. That is postdated check. "You take this million dollar check." "When shall I use it?" "After millions year you can cash it." This kind of propaganda no sane man will accept. That's like chemical evolution. Million years it will happen. Billion. Yes, in a million years. *Then the answer is the chicken is better than you. He can give you life within seven days. Dr. Chicken is better. They are shameless. Not ordinary, because ordinary human being will become shameful to speak something nonsense. But they are shameless. In that Bengali, duḥkhānkata . One man, one ear was cut off. So in order to hide his cut*-off ear he was keeping this side to the river side and this side to the habitation side and then again his two ears were cut out. Then there is no question of hiding. Both of them were cut out. So these people are duḥkhānkata . When both the ears cut out, there is no shame. They will go on talking all nonsense. Because they accept, they are accepted. So many millions of years have passed in the history, nobody could do that, and they are giving hope that life will come after millions of years. Why million? Here is a chicken, he can give life within five days. What credit you'll get after millions of years? But they are duḥkhānkata , so shameless they can speak such nonsense and still pass on as scientists. Tibocham , I think. Duḥkhānkata . No shame. You do not feel that why you are talking nonsense. Am I right or wrong? Here is a chicken, insignificant animal, he is giving life within five days, and we are talking of millions of years, and still we are scientist, Dr. Frog. We are going to use that example in our preaching. And the thing is that these person, they are holding the . . . andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). A blind man, he has no eyes, and still, he's leader of other blind men. Is it possible? A blind man, he is blind man, he has no knowledge, and still, he's leading other blind men. This is a very dangerous position. He has no actually knowledge, simply speculating, putting theories and formulas, and they are leaders of the society. We have to stop this. Yes, otherwise people are misled. It is not the duty of education to mislead people. The real knowledge should be given. They should know that. To become a great misleader and take some title, that is not good. The other morning you were . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda was mentioning about the Institute, the Bhaktivedanta Institute. So is there anything else that Your Divine Grace wants to . . .? Institute, you have got sufficient subject matter as I was describing, this original source of life and the planetary system, as you are going to make planetarium. Who can say about so many planets in the sky? Who has got sufficient knowledge? They cannot even give . . . they think that moon is the nearest planet, but we do not think like that. But still they are unable to give sufficient knowledge about the moon. It is not vacant. It cannot be vacant. We don't find any part of the world vacant. There is living entities. This earth planet is part of the universe, and the moon is also part of the universe. If it is not vacant, how that can be vacant? You have got dust there, here we have got dust—you have got rocks there, here we have got rocks. And why it is vacant? We find in the dust also there is life. When we walk on the beach, it is simply sand, there are so many crabs. They are immediately flying, running, "Oh, here is a man coming. Enter into the hole." So even the dust, in the sand, there is life. So why not there? In the water there is life, within the sand there is life, in the air there is life—everywhere there is life. Why it should be vacant? Hmm? What is the opinion of the scientists? How . . .? We are layman, talking like layman, but why there should not be life? And in the śāstra we get there is life. Not only moon; *every planet is full of living entities. Jagat*-kīrṇa . There is human being, there is animal, everything. How it can be vacant, God's creation? They say they cannot see, so . . . See . . . you cannot see your father; that does not means there is no father who begot you. That is no . . . they cannot see . . . do they say like that? They cannot see that, so they cannot prove by experiment, so . . . What experiment? Just from experience also. They go and look, and that's all they can do. They want to go and see for themselves, so they say they have gone to the moon planet, and they say: "We have not found life." We say you have not gone. I have not seen you, that you have gone there; you say only. How can I believe? They show you pictures, and it was on the TV. That is also, you have made picture. I have not gone and seen that. How can I believe you? The same argument. You say that you have gone to moon planet, but I have not seen that you have gone there. How can I believe you? Is there some other way we can argue with them, Prabhupāda? No, no, that's . . . answer this question, that you say you have not seen. I say yes, that's all right, because you did not see, therefore you don't believe. But I did not see you also that you have gone to moon planet. How can I believe you? How is it possible to deceive so many people? Whether it is not possible or possible, but if you put this argument, that I have not seen, that I can say that I have . . . (end) Conversation A -- July 8, 1976, Washington D.C. (Conversation with Dr. Sharma) Give little, a small pot. Some prasādam ? Prabhupāda, you have given such beautiful temples, so many devotees, now to have a point of jump so that all India and all the world and other people can join in this. Your answers today were very penetrating. That can help a lot, saying that people can work outside but still be devotees, and if they can chant, if they can devote work, and if they can submit all the fruits of their action, if this can be somehow made available, this particular . . . It is available. Yes, but these few questions only, the answers, that these are from you and these are there, then it will be a point of jump in the movement. It will be a big jump in the movement. And what can we do . . .? So come and join us and help us. I would be most honored to do it, and I am trying from the outside. No, you are in Washington? Yes, I am in Washington. So organize here. I certainly will be. Talk with the scientists and everyone here. I come two or three times a week for the temple, and I will be coming more. Yes. Your idea of the Institute is possibly the most magnificent idea, because that will bring all the scientists . . . Yes, actually it is. At least those who are Indians, let them join. It is Indian culture. *Yes, it is such a wonderful thing. I was a hard*-core Vedāntist before I came, and I was not satisfied. I feel that by chanting one really changes. Yes, one changes. Oh, yes. I bring all the Indian people I can, because I know, I am a scientist, I still believe in God. What is your subject matter? I have four doctorates in four different areas. Oh? I have a Ph.D. in chemistry, a Ph.D. in biochemistry, a Doctor of Science in clinical endocrinology. I have a Fellow of the Royal Institute of Chemistry of London, which is a higher Ph.D. I am in computer information and control engineering . . . Royal College of . . . that . . . what is is called? Royal Institute of Chemistry, London. And I have a law degree. And I am in computer information and control engineering. (laughing) You are such a big man. Kindly join us and help us. I would be most honored, and I'm slowly trying to work it out in such a way that I can . . . *No, the formula is all given in this Bhagavad*-gītā . *I find your Bhagavad*-gītā most illuminating as compared to other Gītās I have read, the translations. *We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, that's all. How can we best serve the movement? By joining it? I have joined it in a . . . Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā ( SB 10.22.35): "By life, by money, by intelligence, by words." Either four or three or two—at least one. Then it will be all right. I'll be writing . . . Yes. . . . about the movement in scientific journals. Yes. That I'll be writing. Yes. And I'll be writing . . . That is dhiyā . And I'll be writing . . . Vācaiḥ . I'll also be writing, in scientific way, books about it. You write in our . . . we are going to publish one magazine. 'Cause I think the movement is very scientific. Yes. (rings bell) (aside) So, call Svarūpa Dāmodara. I shall write in books and give it to the editors here to use it the way they best can. I'll write it . . . I normally publish . . . I only last month got a medical prize, a large prize, for medicine. My name is known internationally, medical journals. So I'll submit it to the Book Trust and let them publish it. So, you are qualified medical man? No, I am only in research. I am not qualified to practice medicine, but in clinical medical practice and clinical journals I am qualified. I used to be a full professor. From chemical point. No, from medicine point of view. Ācchā ? From medicine point. In physics and mathematics I'll write in those ways, and I'll submit it and let them use it the way they feel like it. Previously I was with the āśrama , and I was . . . Which āśrama ? Kohasat. Ācchā . And before that with the Swami Rama Tirtha Mission in New York. I was a follower of Vivekananda. Oh. And at the Belur Math in Belur Math Dakshineswar in Calcutta. But I find that by really chanting . . . I was crying to God, literally, at night, that "Find me the path again," and then I found your movement. And I find it, yes, it does make a difference. I was also amazed that evening when the first two days ago I was thinking I will ask you five ślokas of *Gītā* to give me. Out of that, you discussed four. And I was meditating on Haridwar, where I was born. All the time your face was appearing behind Ganges, and it was very strange phenomena. I do not know when I will be fortunate enough to have your darśana again, but in the meantime, I'm slowly . . . I feel that this movement you have done supernatural thing. Now, somehow . . . That's a great certificate, because it is coming from you. It's a supernatural thing. I do not believe that it is natural. It is in the world again to be done. I have been here . . . to be able to convert these people, to be able to make devotees, is unusual. (aside) Where is Svarūpa Dāmodara? I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That indemnity bond? I think I can pack it away until New York City. Hmm? I could take care of that and pack it away until we get to New York. Who will pack it? I think I put it on your desk in there. What is that? Indemnity bond. But the letter has to be written also. Today's discussion was possibly the most magnificent, and very clearly given, about people can be in work as well as . . . Oh, yes. . . . devotees. This, today's discussion, if that is available in some publication form, just that much, then I shall be most happy to distribute it among all the Indians. Yes, do it. I will do that among all the . . . *Sthāne sthitāḥ . . . that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's recommendation. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). You remain your place, but engage your body, tanu; vāk , your words; *and mind. Tanu*-vāṅ-manobhiḥ . Engage all these things for Kṛṣṇa. So tanu means senses. You hear about Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa. Then vān , automatically, words, and mind also. If you hear of Kṛṣṇa, you'll think of Him. In this way there is no need of changing the place. Sthāne sthitāḥ. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi : "My Lord, You are Ajita; *nobody can conquer You. But this person who has engaged his body, mind and words for Your service, he can conquer You." Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. This was spoken by Lord Brahmā, that is . . . there is no question of changing the position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never says so, neither śāstras . But in a regulative way there are steps: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. But on the transcendental platform these things are useless. Simply engage in the service of the Lord. That is mukti . I am thinking that when the Institute is formed, I shall perform all the services, whatever are needed to help. Kindly do that. I'll be doing that. I'll be writing now, and . . . Your family is also here? Yes, I will be married very soon, in about a month. They said Svarūpa Dāmodara went down to the prasādam pavilion, so we sent someone down to find him. Oh. Good. Now here is . . . (Svarūpa Dāmodara enters) All right. Yes, we think that you have done supernatural things. We can do at least just a little bit, just a little bit. Finishing touch. Well, no, just a little bit. We may not be able to finish it, but we will be able to . . . No, the student does roughly, and the master gives the finishing touch, painting. You are very kind. But we will try. It is supernatural. To me it is . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda? Now here is Dr. Sharma. He is Ph.D. in four subject matters, and besides that he is a lawyer, so he's very highly qualified man, and he wants to give his all aid so that . . . So we need his help. Yes. And he is convinced about our bonafideness of this movement. So by his example many other qualified Indians . . . and it is the business of the Indian. It is Indian culture. They are accepting. Present them most scientifically, and it will be a glory of India. It is up to us to bring Kṛṣṇa's words now . . . Yes. Yes. . . . to the world. He wanted us to do it. Yes, kindly do that. So you talk with him in detail how to. If you . . . whether our, this branch will be situated. They say here it is good? For Institute? Yes. I am also going to Boston to see the facilities there. But he can write. He give you. Oh, yes, he can furnish it in so many ways, and we are going to need Sharma's help, because he's in the government agency in the scientific field, so . . . Yes. If he wants to help us, he can help us in so many ways. Yes, I'll be very much honored to help. And he's convinced. He's not an ordinary person. He's convinced. So let us take his help and . . . I'll see what the government and the foundations . . . I can go to the foundation to help it. Once the Institute is formed, I can go to the foundations to get the money from them both to support the movement, for the Institute, for education. Yes. Yes. Once we get started on that . . . you must be very tired now. You have a . . . Yes, yes. Today is Ekādaśī also. I do not know when I will be fortunate to have your darśana again, but I certainly think God will be again give me the blessing to have your darśana . India is fortunate to have . . . We shall see every moment, every day with our work. If the work is going on, then I see you, you see me. (laughs) And I think that Vivekananda came here before. He brought some things. After that, it was nothing was brought out. The only thing which has been brought out which is genuine, which is really in the benefit of Indian . . . Indian culture, it is really a fact. These are the only two things which I have seen. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you very much. Jaya . Take this. I will remember you always out of seeing you in this. Your full name? Dinesh. Very nice name. Dinesh Sharma. Dīna bandhu, dīneśa . (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. All right. God's kindness has brought me to your feet. Thank you very much, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- July 8, 1976, Washington D.C. (Conversation with Dr. Sharma) Give little, a small pot. Some prasādam ? Prabhupāda, you have given such beautiful temples, so many devotees, now to have a point of jump so that all India and all the world and other people can join in this. Your answers today were very penetrating. That can help a lot, saying that people can work outside but still be devotees, and if they can chant, if they can devote work, and if they can submit all the fruits of their action, if this can be somehow made available, this particular . . . It is available. Yes, but these few questions only, the answers, that these are from you and these are there, then it will be a point of jump in the movement. It will be a big jump in the movement. And what can we do . . .? So come and join us and help us. I would be most honored to do it, and I am trying from the outside. No, you are in Washington? Yes, I am in Washington. So organize here. I certainly will be. Talk with the scientists and everyone here. I come two or three times a week for the temple, and I will be coming more. Yes. Your idea of the Institute is possibly the most magnificent idea, because that will bring all the scientists . . . Yes, actually it is. At least those who are Indians, let them join. It is Indian culture. *Yes, it is such a wonderful thing. I was a hard*-core Vedāntist before I came, and I was not satisfied. I feel that by chanting one really changes. Yes, one changes. Oh, yes. I bring all the Indian people I can, because I know, I am a scientist, I still believe in God. What is your subject matter? I have four doctorates in four different areas. Oh? I have a Ph.D. in chemistry, a Ph.D. in biochemistry, a Doctor of Science in clinical endocrinology. I have a Fellow of the Royal Institute of Chemistry of London, which is a higher Ph.D. I am in computer information and control engineering . . . Royal College of . . . that . . . what is is called? Royal Institute of Chemistry, London. And I have a law degree. And I am in computer information and control engineering. (laughing) You are such a big man. Kindly join us and help us. I would be most honored, and I'm slowly trying to work it out in such a way that I can . . . *No, the formula is all given in this Bhagavad*-gītā . *I find your Bhagavad*-gītā most illuminating as compared to other Gītās I have read, the translations. *We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, that's all. How can we best serve the movement? By joining it? I have joined it in a . . . Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā ( SB 10.22.35): "By life, by money, by intelligence, by words." Either four or three or two—at least one. Then it will be all right. I'll be writing . . . Yes. . . . about the movement in scientific journals. Yes. That I'll be writing. Yes. And I'll be writing . . . That is dhiyā . And I'll be writing . . . Vācaiḥ . I'll also be writing, in scientific way, books about it. You write in our . . . we are going to publish one magazine. 'Cause I think the movement is very scientific. Yes. (rings bell) (aside) So, call Svarūpa Dāmodara. I shall write in books and give it to the editors here to use it the way they best can. I'll write it . . . I normally publish . . . I only last month got a medical prize, a large prize, for medicine. My name is known internationally, medical journals. So I'll submit it to the Book Trust and let them publish it. So, you are qualified medical man? No, I am only in research. I am not qualified to practice medicine, but in clinical medical practice and clinical journals I am qualified. I used to be a full professor. From chemical point. No, from medicine point of view. Ācchā ? From medicine point. In physics and mathematics I'll write in those ways, and I'll submit it and let them use it the way they feel like it. Previously I was with the āśrama , and I was . . . Which āśrama ? Kohasat. Ācchā . And before that with the Swami Rama Tirtha Mission in New York. I was a follower of Vivekananda. Oh. And at the Belur Math in Belur Math Dakshineswar in Calcutta. But I find that by really chanting . . . I was crying to God, literally, at night, that "Find me the path again," and then I found your movement. And I find it, yes, it does make a difference. I was also amazed that evening when the first two days ago I was thinking I will ask you five ślokas of *Gītā* to give me. Out of that, you discussed four. And I was meditating on Haridwar, where I was born. All the time your face was appearing behind Ganges, and it was very strange phenomena. I do not know when I will be fortunate enough to have your darśana again, but in the meantime, I'm slowly . . . I feel that this movement you have done supernatural thing. Now, somehow . . . That's a great certificate, because it is coming from you. It's a supernatural thing. I do not believe that it is natural. It is in the world again to be done. I have been here . . . to be able to convert these people, to be able to make devotees, is unusual. (aside) Where is Svarūpa Dāmodara? I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That indemnity bond? I think I can pack it away until New York City. Hmm? I could take care of that and pack it away until we get to New York. Who will pack it? I think I put it on your desk in there. What is that? Indemnity bond. But the letter has to be written also. Today's discussion was possibly the most magnificent, and very clearly given, about people can be in work as well as . . . Oh, yes. . . . devotees. This, today's discussion, if that is available in some publication form, just that much, then I shall be most happy to distribute it among all the Indians. Yes, do it. I will do that among all the . . . *Sthāne sthitāḥ . . . that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's recommendation. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). You remain your place, but engage your body, tanu; vāk , your words; *and mind. Tanu*-vāṅ-manobhiḥ . Engage all these things for Kṛṣṇa. So tanu means senses. You hear about Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa. Then vān , automatically, words, and mind also. If you hear of Kṛṣṇa, you'll think of Him. In this way there is no need of changing the place. Sthāne sthitāḥ. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi : "My Lord, You are Ajita; *nobody can conquer You. But this person who has engaged his body, mind and words for Your service, he can conquer You." Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. This was spoken by Lord Brahmā, that is . . . there is no question of changing the position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never says so, neither śāstras . But in a regulative way there are steps: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. But on the transcendental platform these things are useless. Simply engage in the service of the Lord. That is mukti . I am thinking that when the Institute is formed, I shall perform all the services, whatever are needed to help. Kindly do that. I'll be doing that. I'll be writing now, and . . . Your family is also here? Yes, I will be married very soon, in about a month. They said Svarūpa Dāmodara went down to the prasādam pavilion, so we sent someone down to find him. Oh. Good. Now here is . . . (Svarūpa Dāmodara enters) All right. Yes, we think that you have done supernatural things. We can do at least just a little bit, just a little bit. Finishing touch. Well, no, just a little bit. We may not be able to finish it, but we will be able to . . . No, the student does roughly, and the master gives the finishing touch, painting. You are very kind. But we will try. It is supernatural. To me it is . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda? Now here is Dr. Sharma. He is Ph.D. in four subject matters, and besides that he is a lawyer, so he's very highly qualified man, and he wants to give his all aid so that . . . So we need his help. Yes. And he is convinced about our bonafideness of this movement. So by his example many other qualified Indians . . . and it is the business of the Indian. It is Indian culture. They are accepting. Present them most scientifically, and it will be a glory of India. It is up to us to bring Kṛṣṇa's words now . . . Yes. Yes. . . . to the world. He wanted us to do it. Yes, kindly do that. So you talk with him in detail how to. If you . . . whether our, this branch will be situated. They say here it is good? For Institute? Yes. I am also going to Boston to see the facilities there. But he can write. He give you. Oh, yes, he can furnish it in so many ways, and we are going to need Sharma's help, because he's in the government agency in the scientific field, so . . . Yes. If he wants to help us, he can help us in so many ways. Yes, I'll be very much honored to help. And he's convinced. He's not an ordinary person. He's convinced. So let us take his help and . . . I'll see what the government and the foundations . . . I can go to the foundation to help it. Once the Institute is formed, I can go to the foundations to get the money from them both to support the movement, for the Institute, for education. Yes. Yes. Once we get started on that . . . you must be very tired now. You have a . . . Yes, yes. Today is Ekādaśī also. I do not know when I will be fortunate to have your darśana again, but I certainly think God will be again give me the blessing to have your darśana . India is fortunate to have . . . We shall see every moment, every day with our work. If the work is going on, then I see you, you see me. (laughs) And I think that Vivekananda came here before. He brought some things. After that, it was nothing was brought out. The only thing which has been brought out which is genuine, which is really in the benefit of Indian . . . Indian culture, it is really a fact. These are the only two things which I have seen. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you very much. Jaya . Take this. I will remember you always out of seeing you in this. Your full name? Dinesh. Very nice name. Dinesh Sharma. Dīna bandhu, dīneśa . (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. All right. God's kindness has brought me to your feet. Thank you very much, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Arrival -- July 9, 1976, New York Do they own it or lease it? They lease. The city builds it, and they lease it from the city. What is the name of this airport? La Guardia. La Guardia, yes. There are three airports. I think these buildings are not ten years ago. Oh. New York has three airports. This is the oldest airport. Yes. Kennedy, La Guardia, and there's one just across the river, Newark. It's in New Jersey, but it's considered part of the Port Authority. I hear, Māyāpur Project, you have not been sending money? Not yet. They want money. Gargamuni has written. Yes, they've been calling for money regularly, but we have not been able to send them any. I met with Gurukṛpā Swami, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he has just transferred from the Japanese collections 125,000 dollars. He is writing one letter. Better . . . (indistinct) Ten thousand a month. Not all at a time. Management is not very good. So . . . Little by little. One lakh will be sufficient. For carrying on the work. Things are going on here nice? They're gradually improving. Actually, everything has just begun here; it's by no means complete. You'll see that all of the work is just in progress. It's not . . . it will take a while to make it very nice. Yes. Manage nicely. Kṛṣṇa is giving us everything; there is no scarcity. If we simply sincerely work, Kṛṣṇa will give us intelligence, everything. By His mercy everything is available. That is Kṛṣṇa—He can give you anything. (pause) That Brooklyn Bridge, I think? That iron bridge? Yes, there is a Brooklyn Bridge, but we're not going over it. Sometimes I was coming there and sitting down near the bridge. Near the water? You were sitting near the water part? Yes, that river. *That's a famous bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge. It's the biggest expansion*-type bridge. Because I was on that Bowery Street; it is not very far away. So I was coming, walking there, and sitting under the bridge. And thinking, "Whether I shall return to India?" (laughs) You said you were always inquiring when the boat was returning. *Yes. There is one sub*-railway station . . . beginning with F? Fulton Street? Huh? Fulton Street. Yes, yes, yes. Sometimes I am going there. Fulton. That's very well known. It's in the Village. This bridge we're going on is called the Triborough Bridge. Oh. This is over New York? Yes, it goes over the East River. That Hudson Street? Hudson River is on the other side. This is going on the east side of the city. That subway that goes to the city office? There are so many bridges. So many, yes, many, many bridges. Every day about seven million people come into this island of Manhattan from the other boroughs, and they go back. From your room . . . our building is very close to the Empire State Building, so from your room you have a very nice view of it. Oh. So Los Angeles everything is going nice? Everything is very nice. We just had a big saṅkīrtana marathon for this Fourth of July, and they distributed up to thirty thousand Back to Godheads in just a few days. (referring to garland) Make it smaller. I think it's all one garland, Prabhupāda. You can make smaller. All right. We had a good success because we sent out all the householders to the parks. During that holiday everyone goes to the parks. So the householders took their children and they set up a tent, and one of them stayed there babysitting, and all the others went out distributing your books. So in that way they went out on traveling saṅkīrtana . *What is the name of that boy? He sold one Caitanya*-caritāmṛta to a chemist. Praghoṣa? *No, not Praghoṣa. He's originally from New York, big, heavy, thick*-set boy. Prominent features. Begins with J. *One chemist of Karanpur, he sold one book, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , then he talked with me. He's pleased. The chemist? *Yes. He sold him a Caitanya*-caritāmṛta and then he brought him over and Prabhupāda spoke to him. New York climate is very nice? Very nice. Like Calcutta. On July the Fourth Prabhupāda went and drove into Washington to see the fireworks. Really? In the evening. We had traveling kīrtana all around the city. I think this is enough, Prabhupāda? I'll tie it together now. No, no. We didn't see much of the firework display, but he liked the kīrtana . It was amazing. The reaction was just amazing. People were dancing and chanting and waving when we went past. Prabhupāda was in ecstasy. Very nice. New York climate is very nice. Sometimes now it rains a little bit, then shining. So just like Bengal. I observed that these devotees at New York, they've practically given up sleeping this past week to prepare everything for your arrival. (laughs) They are so kind to me. Yes, they worked very hard. *It reminded me that time when the Press devotees stayed up all the time to get those Caitanya*-caritāmṛta volumes. The same spirit. They just stopped eating and sleeping. That is love. These things can be done only out of love. There were some hired carpenters and painters, and their last day of working was, I think, Wednesday. So yesterday and this morning they came in voluntarily. They stayed up the whole night without sleep, and they continued working. They worked now from eight o'clock yesterday, and they just finished this morning. Straight through the night. They are professional? Professional, but by the association of the devotees . . . They become . . . One of them now says that he wants to rent a room for the whole year in our building. He loves the prasādam . He says he likes the prasādam . Why don't you stay here? No rent; you stay here. You are devotee, you stay here. He's a celibate right now. He's not married, bachelor. Take prasādam , stay here. That's what he wants, and let him give part of his income. Oh, yes. Because of this rain the atmosphere is actually very clean now. You notice that. It's not very much smog, compared to usual. This is the FDR Drive. These are cooperative buildings? *Yes, Prabhupāda. These are lower*-middle class cooperative buildings. This is the East Side. I selected one cooperative apartment, they wanted five thousand dollars. (laughs) I had no money. Very nice apartment, near city office. Downtown. This is First Avenue here, at about 116th Street, where we are now. *Our building is on the Fifty*-fourth? *Fifty*-fifth Street. Just near Broadway, one block from Broadway. Broadway is important place. Very important. Our building is right in the midst of the theater, restaurant and entertainment section of the city. In New York I feel little homely, because first I came here. I was loitering on the street here and there. From 1965 September to '67 July, continually I stayed in New York. Two years. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja gave one class this morning. So he was explaining that we cannot understand the good fortune of this city that you have come here. We cannot begin to estimate how fortunate this city is. Yes, I, when I decided I shall go foreign country, I never thought of going to London; I thought of coming here. Generally they go to London, but I thought, "No, I shall go to New York." Very progressive. (laughs) I do not know. It is Kṛṣṇa's dictation. I could have gone. London was nearer. But I thought, "No, I shall go to New York." Sometimes, I think, I was coming this part. Aimlessly . . . I think the United Nation building is somewhere here? *No, it's a little further down. It's on this avenue, it's on Forty*-fourth Street, and we are on Ninety-sixth Street. We are a little bit uptown. *And Ninety . . . yes. That Indian Consulate office is Sixty*-fourth. *Sixty*-fourth Street, and just off Central Park. I was coming there sometime, talking with the officers. One Mr. Malhotra was there, he was showing me, very friendly. He arranged some meeting in Consulate office. They had some organization, Tagore Organization. Second Avenue we'll come? Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is First Avenue, then comes Second. Yes, sometimes walking on the Second Avenue. We're going to go up to Central Park and then go along the Park. *This is Ninety*-sixth? *This is Ninety*-sixth Street. There was fire in this building? There are many fires in this city, I notice. It is due to the warm. Yes, due to the warm, and also the buildings, some of them are old, and they are not built properly. Not taken care of. No. Our building is also an old building. It's seventy years old. But it's made of solid stone and concrete, brick. Then it will never get old. No, it's extremely . . . You have to simply change the plastering. Yes, painting, plastering. Then it will continue new for hundreds of years. It's built like that. It's all steel reinforced everywhere. Ah, then it is very nice. It's rated . . . it has the top fire rating in the city. After three years it will require little repairing, then it will keep new always. Right now we're in the process of simply repainting it, giving it a fresh coat of paint to make it new, because they had not painted it for about ten years, former owners. It should be painted every three years, then it will be all right. Okay. On the outside as well. Yes, everything. Then the building will keep very fresh always. Yes. This is Second Avenue? This is I think Third Avenue. Next comes Lexington Avenue. This is black area? Yes, Puerto Rican and black. This city has as many, Puerto Ricans as Puerto Rico does. So many Puerto Rican people come here, because it's part of . . . it's a possession of the United States. So the East Side is Puerto Ricans and the West Side . . . Generally they are worker class. Oh, yes. This is Park Avenue. Oh. Some of the billboard signs are even Portuguese also. Spanish. They speak Spanish? Puerto Ricans speak Spanish. Why don't you sell Spanish books to them? We do. We distribute here Spanish books from New York. *Today Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja is sending to the printer the last volume of the First Canto in Spanish, another volume of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam in Spanish. And before you leave New York he will give you . . . I'll give him . . . . . . a new book in Spanish, the *Kṛṣṇa Book*, Volume One. Oh. That is coming in a few days. *You have seen Chinese Bhagavad*-gītā ? Yes, we have seen that. You have got it? Yes, in the back. I have it also. I sent a copy to Peking. He has done very nice. First six chapters. So in three books it will be finished. The next six chapters are coming out soon. That boy is doing very nice. Yaśomatī? Sūta. Sūta, yes, very nice. Madison Avenue. Here is Fifth Avenue. *Yes, Central Park. I was coming to Central Park from the other side, Seventy*-second Street. Our temple is four blocks from Central Park. Just walking distance. The mothers and children go there. Central Park? Very nice. So you have advantage of the park. Oh, yes. And on Sundays we put on saṅkīrtana in the park, and then the people are invited to come to the temple for the feast. Now, because of the good weather, many people leave the city on the weekend, so the numbers of people who are coming on the Love Feast days is not as much as before the summer and after the summer. Now they like to go to the beaches and resort areas, where it's cool and there's water. The zoo is here also here? Jewish people? No, zoo, zoology. *Zoo, zoology. Yes, Central Park Zoo is on about Sixty*-fourth Street, Sixty-fifth Street, just off of the east. All big, big buildings. That's New York. The population now of the greater New York area is eighteen million. Eighteen million? Yes. It was ten million. Yes, it has very much increased now. That includes the outlying . . . How it is increased? Well, it includes the outlying suburbs, which have become very developed. Long Island. It includes Long Island. Just as many people are living here now, and many, many more people are living on the outskirts. And Queens. Queens and Brooklyn, much more people are living there than before. Queens and Long Island especially. *So Bali*-mardana is doing all right? *Yes, he and I stay together. We get up at two*-thirty in the morning, chant sixteen rounds before ārati , saying Gāyatrī strictly on time, eating very little, and he reads a great deal of the day, two or three hours he reads, and he's also preaching, giving classes. His wife? She's engaged in taking care of the Life Members, Indian Life Members who come, and the guest rooms. Oh, that's nice. She is expert. (chuckles) She's very expert. She can do nicely. And during winter here it will be so cold you cannot stand even. Actually, after I left Hawaii, I went to see you in Hawaii, all of the work that we did in this building began from when I returned here. So it's been a great push for the last month or month and a half, I think. They did not do much improvement on the temple the first five or six months they were here. They were just adjusting, I guess. Not proper leader. What is this building? This is the, ah . . . Metropolitan Museum of Art. Metropolitan Museum of Art. Very famous art museum. (break) . . . saw fireworks in Washington. There's the Empire State Building, Prabhupāda, straight ahead. Oh, yes. I think one day our art paintings will also be in these museums, because our artists are becoming as expert as anyone. Must be. Already people are coming and offering minimum one thousand dollars to buy a painting. In Los Angeles, I have sold some paintings for a thousand dollars each. Originals. Original and some copies (laughter) also. Copy, how do you make copy? We have some artists practicing. So he makes a copy of the original, and I sell it for five hundred dollars. Half the price of the original. Good business. But that will increase. You can get ten thousand, twenty thousand dollars for one painting in the future, because they are paying that much now for inferior work. Who is painting nice? Muralī? Muralīdhara, Jadurāṇī, Parīkṣit. Parīkṣit is wonderful. Parīkṣit, yes. Yes. He's expert. We have one boy in the temple here who has been doing murals on the walls in the temple room, and he's done it very quickly with a technique called airbrush. Instead of using a brush, you use a spray gun, and you spray the paint on. It's a modern technique. It's especially good in murals and things. First of all they draw in lines? Yes. And then they spray on the paint. He finishes a painting in two or three days, big murals. (laughs) He's expert. He's known as the human camera. He can copy any picture onto a wall. His name is Viṣṇu dāsa. *Expert. So why does he not go to Māyāpur*-candrodaya . . .? (laughter) Yes, he's meant to go, after he finishes the temple. You already told him to go last time. We knew you would say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We were talking this morning how as soon as you see his work, you'll say he should go to Māyāpur. He paints very quickly. We could actually send him with that spray gun. Electric spray? Yes. I don't know if they use electricity, or do you use gas? The thing is that he can paint directly, just as fast. Yes, I had him in L.A. painting with a brush. (indistinct background conversation about painting) What is this building? I don't recognize it. Oh, the Frith Collection, it's an art museum. This whole street is full of art museums. Oh. There's one gentleman named Frith. This taxi driver is saying Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our Jayānanda was driving taxi and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and one day (laughter) he brought to me five thousand dollars. And you used it to print *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* . Huh? Was that the time? I think, yes. You kept it then. *I kept it. It was given for publishing Bhagavad*-gītā , but I think Macmillan took it. So I spent it for . . . Then you put him in charge to sell all the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*, I remember. (Prabhupāda laughs) Didn't sell too many books, though. I thought he was the best, most appropriate person to drive you. He was chanting and driving. Very good boy. Cyavana has been here also. Just train him. He is good boy. He has fallen down, just take care of him. Yes, actually the work here needs, you'll see, this building, it actually requires four or five big leaders. One may fall down, but you have to take care. He's much better now. Yes, he'll do. He's good worker, if you can train him, he's a good worker. He can do very nice. He has fallen in māyā , just take care of him. What can be done? He's good worker, very good worker. He can do intelligent service. Very intelligent, very high class, nice devotee. He knows accounting. There was no guide, he became alone . . . That's exactly what he said. . . . and became spoiled. He said there was just too much for himself alone. Yes, that is the difficulty. As soon as there is lack of good association, one falls a victim. What about that boy, Ṛṣi Kumāra? Oh, he's doing great. He's taken up joint charge of the restaurant. He's also very good boy. All day long he cooks, and after he cooks, then the people take the prasādam in the restaurant, he goes out and preaches to them. He's an able worker. *Then he goes out and he leads a hari*-nāma party on the street. He's very enthusiastic to make this restaurant very successful. But keep watch on him. For the women. Yes. (laughs) He gets deluded. Well, you know what we've done with all of these people, Prabhupāda, we've . . . If they are disturbed, let them marry. *He doesn't want. He says he knows it's a waste of time, marriage. What we have done with Ṛṣi Kumāra and Bali*-mardana is that we are living with them. Like Ṛṣi Kumāra lives with Ādi-keśava Swami. Somebody must be with him. Then it is all right. Not alone. We've put them with the senior . . . Either Cyavana or him, some experienced devotee must be with him. Then they . . . Do nicely. And I think Ṛṣi Kumāra is a good cook also. My personal opinion he's the best cook that I've so far seen. Yes. Since he has come here, the prasādam in the restaurant has at least doubled in the quality. Ācchā . (laughs) Completely different prasādam . He's learned the Gujarati style. Kachorīs , samosā , every kind of special prep. When we stayed in Kailash Shiksharya's house when we were first in Bombay, the things that those cooks were cooking, he knows how to cook. Very high class Marwari and Gujarati cooking. He's very intelligent. And Maṇibandha, he's another one. He's cooking with Ṛṣi Kumāra. He's also very intelligent boy, but sometimes spoiled. We have a lot of them here. *Anyway, we have to take care of so many souls. (taxi*-driver yells) What does he say? He said you have a nice car. That's good they like the car. (laughs) Ask "Why don't you come here?" (laughter) "Why you are driving taxi? Come here." It's amazing how everybody is looking at us. *Now, formerly it was thirty*-five, now it is sixty-five? Yes, Prabhupāda. Everything has doubled in price. This car is very ordinary, but it is because you are in it, Prabhupāda, that they are looking. Ordinarily it is not such a special car. What is the maker? LTD. What is it? It's the same, more or less the same car that you had when you were driving in Los Angeles. The same as what you had in Melbourne also. It's a Ford. Los Angeles, this was Mercedes. No, Mercury. Right? Mercury? No, this is nice car. It's their version of Cadillac, Mercury's version of Cadillac. They cannot understand. Because we say we are not after material opulence for ourselves, they cannot understand that we drive in these cars. *They think that we unnecessarily criticize. But we require everything. But just like a man, when he's alive his decoration, his nice dress, everything is very good. But if he's dead, then it is useless. Similarly, without spiritual consciousness we are dead, because the body is dead. Because the spirit soul is there, therefore it is moving. The important point is the spirit soul. So if you are simply taking care of the body very nicely, that means you are decorating the dead body. What is the value of it? It is clear? The body is important because the soul is there. So long the life is there, if you decorate the body everyone will appreciate. But if you decorate the dead body, people will say: "What a fool he is!" Aprāṇasyaiva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka*-rañjanam (Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya 3.11). That is simply a popular applause, "Ah, the dead body is decorated." But what is the value of it? Similarly, without spiritual knowledge, this dead civilization simply on the bodily concept of life, it is ludicrous. That we have to condemn. Take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then everything is . . . just like one, if there is zero, then it is ten. Another zero, hundred. But without one, simply zero, it is only useless. That one is Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa's representative. Jaya . One, if there is one, then zero has value. If there is no one, then simply increasing zeroes, what do we get for that? That is the position. There is no spiritual understanding; they are simply after material advancement. Therefore despite all advancement materially, they are not happy. You cannot be. Now they are trying to bring life by material combination. It is all impossible, childish. Our scientists, they have come? No. Yes. Sadāpūta. Yes, they are all here, aren't they? Svarūpa Dāmodara here? Yes. Ah. Mādhava and Svarūpa. Three of them, Mādhava, Svarūpa and Sadāpūta also. Ever since we published that article that they wrote in Back to Godhead , many people have been impressed that, "Oh, Ph.D's, they are accepting this movement." Many Indian guests in Los Angeles, they all comment that they have read this article, and now they are taking our movement ser . . . Now I have collected one Indian, four items he is Ph.D. He is Ph.D. in chemistry, Ph.D. in engineering . . . Dr. Sharma? Yes. And Ph.D. in pathology. Four. And he's lawyer also. What is he going to do? He's going to help our, this . . . (break) These are bookstalls. Look at that. Barnes and Noble, they are putting up bookstalls here. Another Ph.D. from India has joined our movement in Denver. He's just moved into the temple. He has a Ph.D. in psychology. Yes. There are horse carriages here? Just there. *Yes. This is Fifty*-seventh? *Fifty*-ninth. You don't want to turn here, huh, Jayānanda? Do you? Go up Fifty-ninth, it would be nicer. This is where the parade begins. From here down, straight. All the way down Fifth Avenue. *The Ratha*-yātrā. Yes. From here all the way down, we go all the way down to the park. You know that park? Washington Square Park. All the way down, three rathas . It's the biggest avenue. Is there any hour limit? No. Two or three hours it will take. You've got to get on the right side, Jayānanda. It appears more congested than before. Yes, business is increasing. Population are increased. They had a festival to celebrate the Fourth of July in the Battery, down at Battery Park. Four million people attended. We sold prasādam there. Over one thousand dollars of prasādam (laughs) was sold from our prasādam cart. They liked? Oh, yes. They were selling kachorīs , sandwiches. This Doubleday Company, they take our books? Ah . . . I don't know. I'm not sure. I don't know. Generally the bookstores, they don't take our books because our distributors are distributing on the street in front of the bookstore; *they say it is competition. But the college bookstores, they all take our books. We just got a report from Satsvarūpa Mahārāja that this past month of June in America they sold seventy*-five standing orders. And that is remarkable, because all the schools are closed in June, and still they sold them books. They closed for the summer, and still they are ordering your books. In this street I think there is one library office . . . *Yes, it's Fifty . . . it's either Fifty*-fifth or Fifty-third, and it's called . . . it's one of main sub-branches. Yes, it's a very well known one. "Free rent"? "Free rent. Rent a safe deposit box for one year and we'll give you an extra six months free." But first you have to pay for one year. Chemical Bank. Huge buildings now everywhere. This is Rockefeller? No, Prabhupāda. Now everything looks like the Rockefeller Plaza. All of the buildings are built in that same style. Very opulent. Now every day I look out the window of our building and I think when it will come that we will have one of these buildings. It won't be long. You can see how big these are, Prabhupāda. This is Sixth Avenue. So we are between Sixth Avenue and . . .? No, we're between Eighth Avenue and Ninth. Actually, our building can be seen from here. Hare Kṛṣṇa is on the outside of it. I can see it, just on the left. Straight ahead. It's on the left straight ahead. It's a brown building on the left side. There's a tree on the top. It has gold letters going down the side of it saying Hare Kṛṣṇa. *It's the brownish one with the white . . . little white cabin*-type thing on the top of it. We're very lucky. We rented a garage one block away which can house four buses and twenty vans. Only one block away from it. It's very unusual. Otherwise . . . You have taken the whole garage? Yes, otherwise it's not possible to get parking space in New York. See the "Hare Kṛṣṇa" now, Prabhupāda, on the side of the building? Yes, yes. Jayānanda, maybe you should park on the right side. We can walk across the street rather than getting out . . . Yes, good idea. Pull over if you can on the right side, then Prabhupāda can see the building from across the street. (break) Yes, at least for the next five or ten years. (laughs) Then you'll have to change again. Then we want the Empire State Building. (laughter) We have a nice banner which flies in front of the building also. I think you should park on the right side, Jayānanda, unless . . . (indistinct discussion on where to park) All right, park on the left. See the banner? Yes. (end) Arrival -- July 9, 1976, New York Do they own it or lease it? They lease. The city builds it, and they lease it from the city. What is the name of this airport? La Guardia. La Guardia, yes. There are three airports. I think these buildings are not ten years ago. Oh. New York has three airports. This is the oldest airport. Yes. Kennedy, La Guardia, and there's one just across the river, Newark. It's in New Jersey, but it's considered part of the Port Authority. I hear, Māyāpur Project, you have not been sending money? Not yet. They want money. Gargamuni has written. Yes, they've been calling for money regularly, but we have not been able to send them any. I met with Gurukṛpā Swami, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he has just transferred from the Japanese collections 125,000 dollars. He is writing one letter. Better . . . (indistinct) Ten thousand a month. Not all at a time. Management is not very good. So . . . Little by little. One lakh will be sufficient. For carrying on the work. Things are going on here nice? They're gradually improving. Actually, everything has just begun here; it's by no means complete. You'll see that all of the work is just in progress. It's not . . . it will take a while to make it very nice. Yes. Manage nicely. Kṛṣṇa is giving us everything; there is no scarcity. If we simply sincerely work, Kṛṣṇa will give us intelligence, everything. By His mercy everything is available. That is Kṛṣṇa—He can give you anything. (pause) That Brooklyn Bridge, I think? That iron bridge? Yes, there is a Brooklyn Bridge, but we're not going over it. Sometimes I was coming there and sitting down near the bridge. Near the water? You were sitting near the water part? Yes, that river. *That's a famous bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge. It's the biggest expansion*-type bridge. Because I was on that Bowery Street; it is not very far away. So I was coming, walking there, and sitting under the bridge. And thinking, "Whether I shall return to India?" (laughs) You said you were always inquiring when the boat was returning. *Yes. There is one sub*-railway station . . . beginning with F? Fulton Street? Huh? Fulton Street. Yes, yes, yes. Sometimes I am going there. Fulton. That's very well known. It's in the Village. This bridge we're going on is called the Triborough Bridge. Oh. This is over New York? Yes, it goes over the East River. That Hudson Street? Hudson River is on the other side. This is going on the east side of the city. That subway that goes to the city office? There are so many bridges. So many, yes, many, many bridges. Every day about seven million people come into this island of Manhattan from the other boroughs, and they go back. From your room . . . our building is very close to the Empire State Building, so from your room you have a very nice view of it. Oh. So Los Angeles everything is going nice? Everything is very nice. We just had a big saṅkīrtana marathon for this Fourth of July, and they distributed up to thirty thousand Back to Godheads in just a few days. (referring to garland) Make it smaller. I think it's all one garland, Prabhupāda. You can make smaller. All right. We had a good success because we sent out all the householders to the parks. During that holiday everyone goes to the parks. So the householders took their children and they set up a tent, and one of them stayed there babysitting, and all the others went out distributing your books. So in that way they went out on traveling saṅkīrtana . *What is the name of that boy? He sold one Caitanya*-caritāmṛta to a chemist. Praghoṣa? *No, not Praghoṣa. He's originally from New York, big, heavy, thick*-set boy. Prominent features. Begins with J. *One chemist of Karanpur, he sold one book, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , then he talked with me. He's pleased. The chemist? *Yes. He sold him a Caitanya*-caritāmṛta and then he brought him over and Prabhupāda spoke to him. New York climate is very nice? Very nice. Like Calcutta. On July the Fourth Prabhupāda went and drove into Washington to see the fireworks. Really? In the evening. We had traveling kīrtana all around the city. I think this is enough, Prabhupāda? I'll tie it together now. No, no. We didn't see much of the firework display, but he liked the kīrtana . It was amazing. The reaction was just amazing. People were dancing and chanting and waving when we went past. Prabhupāda was in ecstasy. Very nice. New York climate is very nice. Sometimes now it rains a little bit, then shining. So just like Bengal. I observed that these devotees at New York, they've practically given up sleeping this past week to prepare everything for your arrival. (laughs) They are so kind to me. Yes, they worked very hard. *It reminded me that time when the Press devotees stayed up all the time to get those Caitanya*-caritāmṛta volumes. The same spirit. They just stopped eating and sleeping. That is love. These things can be done only out of love. There were some hired carpenters and painters, and their last day of working was, I think, Wednesday. So yesterday and this morning they came in voluntarily. They stayed up the whole night without sleep, and they continued working. They worked now from eight o'clock yesterday, and they just finished this morning. Straight through the night. They are professional? Professional, but by the association of the devotees . . . They become . . . One of them now says that he wants to rent a room for the whole year in our building. He loves the prasādam . He says he likes the prasādam . Why don't you stay here? No rent; you stay here. You are devotee, you stay here. He's a celibate right now. He's not married, bachelor. Take prasādam , stay here. That's what he wants, and let him give part of his income. Oh, yes. Because of this rain the atmosphere is actually very clean now. You notice that. It's not very much smog, compared to usual. This is the FDR Drive. These are cooperative buildings? *Yes, Prabhupāda. These are lower*-middle class cooperative buildings. This is the East Side. I selected one cooperative apartment, they wanted five thousand dollars. (laughs) I had no money. Very nice apartment, near city office. Downtown. This is First Avenue here, at about 116th Street, where we are now. *Our building is on the Fifty*-fourth? *Fifty*-fifth Street. Just near Broadway, one block from Broadway. Broadway is important place. Very important. Our building is right in the midst of the theater, restaurant and entertainment section of the city. In New York I feel little homely, because first I came here. I was loitering on the street here and there. From 1965 September to '67 July, continually I stayed in New York. Two years. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja gave one class this morning. So he was explaining that we cannot understand the good fortune of this city that you have come here. We cannot begin to estimate how fortunate this city is. Yes, I, when I decided I shall go foreign country, I never thought of going to London; I thought of coming here. Generally they go to London, but I thought, "No, I shall go to New York." Very progressive. (laughs) I do not know. It is Kṛṣṇa's dictation. I could have gone. London was nearer. But I thought, "No, I shall go to New York." Sometimes, I think, I was coming this part. Aimlessly . . . I think the United Nation building is somewhere here? *No, it's a little further down. It's on this avenue, it's on Forty*-fourth Street, and we are on Ninety-sixth Street. We are a little bit uptown. *And Ninety . . . yes. That Indian Consulate office is Sixty*-fourth. *Sixty*-fourth Street, and just off Central Park. I was coming there sometime, talking with the officers. One Mr. Malhotra was there, he was showing me, very friendly. He arranged some meeting in Consulate office. They had some organization, Tagore Organization. Second Avenue we'll come? Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is First Avenue, then comes Second. Yes, sometimes walking on the Second Avenue. We're going to go up to Central Park and then go along the Park. *This is Ninety*-sixth? *This is Ninety*-sixth Street. There was fire in this building? There are many fires in this city, I notice. It is due to the warm. Yes, due to the warm, and also the buildings, some of them are old, and they are not built properly. Not taken care of. No. Our building is also an old building. It's seventy years old. But it's made of solid stone and concrete, brick. Then it will never get old. No, it's extremely . . . You have to simply change the plastering. Yes, painting, plastering. Then it will continue new for hundreds of years. It's built like that. It's all steel reinforced everywhere. Ah, then it is very nice. It's rated . . . it has the top fire rating in the city. After three years it will require little repairing, then it will keep new always. Right now we're in the process of simply repainting it, giving it a fresh coat of paint to make it new, because they had not painted it for about ten years, former owners. It should be painted every three years, then it will be all right. Okay. On the outside as well. Yes, everything. Then the building will keep very fresh always. Yes. This is Second Avenue? This is I think Third Avenue. Next comes Lexington Avenue. This is black area? Yes, Puerto Rican and black. This city has as many, Puerto Ricans as Puerto Rico does. So many Puerto Rican people come here, because it's part of . . . it's a possession of the United States. So the East Side is Puerto Ricans and the West Side . . . Generally they are worker class. Oh, yes. This is Park Avenue. Oh. Some of the billboard signs are even Portuguese also. Spanish. They speak Spanish? Puerto Ricans speak Spanish. Why don't you sell Spanish books to them? We do. We distribute here Spanish books from New York. *Today Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja is sending to the printer the last volume of the First Canto in Spanish, another volume of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam in Spanish. And before you leave New York he will give you . . . I'll give him . . . . . . a new book in Spanish, the *Kṛṣṇa Book*, Volume One. Oh. That is coming in a few days. *You have seen Chinese Bhagavad*-gītā ? Yes, we have seen that. You have got it? Yes, in the back. I have it also. I sent a copy to Peking. He has done very nice. First six chapters. So in three books it will be finished. The next six chapters are coming out soon. That boy is doing very nice. Yaśomatī? Sūta. Sūta, yes, very nice. Madison Avenue. Here is Fifth Avenue. *Yes, Central Park. I was coming to Central Park from the other side, Seventy*-second Street. Our temple is four blocks from Central Park. Just walking distance. The mothers and children go there. Central Park? Very nice. So you have advantage of the park. Oh, yes. And on Sundays we put on saṅkīrtana in the park, and then the people are invited to come to the temple for the feast. Now, because of the good weather, many people leave the city on the weekend, so the numbers of people who are coming on the Love Feast days is not as much as before the summer and after the summer. Now they like to go to the beaches and resort areas, where it's cool and there's water. The zoo is here also here? Jewish people? No, zoo, zoology. *Zoo, zoology. Yes, Central Park Zoo is on about Sixty*-fourth Street, Sixty-fifth Street, just off of the east. All big, big buildings. That's New York. The population now of the greater New York area is eighteen million. Eighteen million? Yes. It was ten million. Yes, it has very much increased now. That includes the outlying . . . How it is increased? Well, it includes the outlying suburbs, which have become very developed. Long Island. It includes Long Island. Just as many people are living here now, and many, many more people are living on the outskirts. And Queens. Queens and Brooklyn, much more people are living there than before. Queens and Long Island especially. *So Bali*-mardana is doing all right? *Yes, he and I stay together. We get up at two*-thirty in the morning, chant sixteen rounds before ārati , saying Gāyatrī strictly on time, eating very little, and he reads a great deal of the day, two or three hours he reads, and he's also preaching, giving classes. His wife? She's engaged in taking care of the Life Members, Indian Life Members who come, and the guest rooms. Oh, that's nice. She is expert. (chuckles) She's very expert. She can do nicely. And during winter here it will be so cold you cannot stand even. Actually, after I left Hawaii, I went to see you in Hawaii, all of the work that we did in this building began from when I returned here. So it's been a great push for the last month or month and a half, I think. They did not do much improvement on the temple the first five or six months they were here. They were just adjusting, I guess. Not proper leader. What is this building? This is the, ah . . . Metropolitan Museum of Art. Metropolitan Museum of Art. Very famous art museum. (break) . . . saw fireworks in Washington. There's the Empire State Building, Prabhupāda, straight ahead. Oh, yes. I think one day our art paintings will also be in these museums, because our artists are becoming as expert as anyone. Must be. Already people are coming and offering minimum one thousand dollars to buy a painting. In Los Angeles, I have sold some paintings for a thousand dollars each. Originals. Original and some copies (laughter) also. Copy, how do you make copy? We have some artists practicing. So he makes a copy of the original, and I sell it for five hundred dollars. Half the price of the original. Good business. But that will increase. You can get ten thousand, twenty thousand dollars for one painting in the future, because they are paying that much now for inferior work. Who is painting nice? Muralī? Muralīdhara, Jadurāṇī, Parīkṣit. Parīkṣit is wonderful. Parīkṣit, yes. Yes. He's expert. We have one boy in the temple here who has been doing murals on the walls in the temple room, and he's done it very quickly with a technique called airbrush. Instead of using a brush, you use a spray gun, and you spray the paint on. It's a modern technique. It's especially good in murals and things. First of all they draw in lines? Yes. And then they spray on the paint. He finishes a painting in two or three days, big murals. (laughs) He's expert. He's known as the human camera. He can copy any picture onto a wall. His name is Viṣṇu dāsa. *Expert. So why does he not go to Māyāpur*-candrodaya . . .? (laughter) Yes, he's meant to go, after he finishes the temple. You already told him to go last time. We knew you would say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We were talking this morning how as soon as you see his work, you'll say he should go to Māyāpur. He paints very quickly. We could actually send him with that spray gun. Electric spray? Yes. I don't know if they use electricity, or do you use gas? The thing is that he can paint directly, just as fast. Yes, I had him in L.A. painting with a brush. (indistinct background conversation about painting) What is this building? I don't recognize it. Oh, the Frith Collection, it's an art museum. This whole street is full of art museums. Oh. There's one gentleman named Frith. This taxi driver is saying Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our Jayānanda was driving taxi and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and one day (laughter) he brought to me five thousand dollars. And you used it to print *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* . Huh? Was that the time? I think, yes. You kept it then. *I kept it. It was given for publishing Bhagavad*-gītā , but I think Macmillan took it. So I spent it for . . . Then you put him in charge to sell all the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*, I remember. (Prabhupāda laughs) Didn't sell too many books, though. I thought he was the best, most appropriate person to drive you. He was chanting and driving. Very good boy. Cyavana has been here also. Just train him. He is good boy. He has fallen down, just take care of him. Yes, actually the work here needs, you'll see, this building, it actually requires four or five big leaders. One may fall down, but you have to take care. He's much better now. Yes, he'll do. He's good worker, if you can train him, he's a good worker. He can do very nice. He has fallen in māyā , just take care of him. What can be done? He's good worker, very good worker. He can do intelligent service. Very intelligent, very high class, nice devotee. He knows accounting. There was no guide, he became alone . . . That's exactly what he said. . . . and became spoiled. He said there was just too much for himself alone. Yes, that is the difficulty. As soon as there is lack of good association, one falls a victim. What about that boy, Ṛṣi Kumāra? Oh, he's doing great. He's taken up joint charge of the restaurant. He's also very good boy. All day long he cooks, and after he cooks, then the people take the prasādam in the restaurant, he goes out and preaches to them. He's an able worker. *Then he goes out and he leads a hari*-nāma party on the street. He's very enthusiastic to make this restaurant very successful. But keep watch on him. For the women. Yes. (laughs) He gets deluded. Well, you know what we've done with all of these people, Prabhupāda, we've . . . If they are disturbed, let them marry. *He doesn't want. He says he knows it's a waste of time, marriage. What we have done with Ṛṣi Kumāra and Bali*-mardana is that we are living with them. Like Ṛṣi Kumāra lives with Ādi-keśava Swami. Somebody must be with him. Then it is all right. Not alone. We've put them with the senior . . . Either Cyavana or him, some experienced devotee must be with him. Then they . . . Do nicely. And I think Ṛṣi Kumāra is a good cook also. My personal opinion he's the best cook that I've so far seen. Yes. Since he has come here, the prasādam in the restaurant has at least doubled in the quality. Ācchā . (laughs) Completely different prasādam . He's learned the Gujarati style. Kachorīs , samosā , every kind of special prep. When we stayed in Kailash Shiksharya's house when we were first in Bombay, the things that those cooks were cooking, he knows how to cook. Very high class Marwari and Gujarati cooking. He's very intelligent. And Maṇibandha, he's another one. He's cooking with Ṛṣi Kumāra. He's also very intelligent boy, but sometimes spoiled. We have a lot of them here. *Anyway, we have to take care of so many souls. (taxi*-driver yells) What does he say? He said you have a nice car. That's good they like the car. (laughs) Ask "Why don't you come here?" (laughter) "Why you are driving taxi? Come here." It's amazing how everybody is looking at us. *Now, formerly it was thirty*-five, now it is sixty-five? Yes, Prabhupāda. Everything has doubled in price. This car is very ordinary, but it is because you are in it, Prabhupāda, that they are looking. Ordinarily it is not such a special car. What is the maker? LTD. What is it? It's the same, more or less the same car that you had when you were driving in Los Angeles. The same as what you had in Melbourne also. It's a Ford. Los Angeles, this was Mercedes. No, Mercury. Right? Mercury? No, this is nice car. It's their version of Cadillac, Mercury's version of Cadillac. They cannot understand. Because we say we are not after material opulence for ourselves, they cannot understand that we drive in these cars. *They think that we unnecessarily criticize. But we require everything. But just like a man, when he's alive his decoration, his nice dress, everything is very good. But if he's dead, then it is useless. Similarly, without spiritual consciousness we are dead, because the body is dead. Because the spirit soul is there, therefore it is moving. The important point is the spirit soul. So if you are simply taking care of the body very nicely, that means you are decorating the dead body. What is the value of it? It is clear? The body is important because the soul is there. So long the life is there, if you decorate the body everyone will appreciate. But if you decorate the dead body, people will say: "What a fool he is!" Aprāṇasyaiva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka*-rañjanam (Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya 3.11). That is simply a popular applause, "Ah, the dead body is decorated." But what is the value of it? Similarly, without spiritual knowledge, this dead civilization simply on the bodily concept of life, it is ludicrous. That we have to condemn. Take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then everything is . . . just like one, if there is zero, then it is ten. Another zero, hundred. But without one, simply zero, it is only useless. That one is Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa's representative. Jaya . One, if there is one, then zero has value. If there is no one, then simply increasing zeroes, what do we get for that? That is the position. There is no spiritual understanding; they are simply after material advancement. Therefore despite all advancement materially, they are not happy. You cannot be. Now they are trying to bring life by material combination. It is all impossible, childish. Our scientists, they have come? No. Yes. Sadāpūta. Yes, they are all here, aren't they? Svarūpa Dāmodara here? Yes. Ah. Mādhava and Svarūpa. Three of them, Mādhava, Svarūpa and Sadāpūta also. Ever since we published that article that they wrote in Back to Godhead , many people have been impressed that, "Oh, Ph.D's, they are accepting this movement." Many Indian guests in Los Angeles, they all comment that they have read this article, and now they are taking our movement ser . . . Now I have collected one Indian, four items he is Ph.D. He is Ph.D. in chemistry, Ph.D. in engineering . . . Dr. Sharma? Yes. And Ph.D. in pathology. Four. And he's lawyer also. What is he going to do? He's going to help our, this . . . (break) These are bookstalls. Look at that. Barnes and Noble, they are putting up bookstalls here. Another Ph.D. from India has joined our movement in Denver. He's just moved into the temple. He has a Ph.D. in psychology. Yes. There are horse carriages here? Just there. *Yes. This is Fifty*-seventh? *Fifty*-ninth. You don't want to turn here, huh, Jayānanda? Do you? Go up Fifty-ninth, it would be nicer. This is where the parade begins. From here down, straight. All the way down Fifth Avenue. *The Ratha*-yātrā. Yes. From here all the way down, we go all the way down to the park. You know that park? Washington Square Park. All the way down, three rathas . It's the biggest avenue. Is there any hour limit? No. Two or three hours it will take. You've got to get on the right side, Jayānanda. It appears more congested than before. Yes, business is increasing. Population are increased. They had a festival to celebrate the Fourth of July in the Battery, down at Battery Park. Four million people attended. We sold prasādam there. Over one thousand dollars of prasādam (laughs) was sold from our prasādam cart. They liked? Oh, yes. They were selling kachorīs , sandwiches. This Doubleday Company, they take our books? Ah . . . I don't know. I'm not sure. I don't know. Generally the bookstores, they don't take our books because our distributors are distributing on the street in front of the bookstore; *they say it is competition. But the college bookstores, they all take our books. We just got a report from Satsvarūpa Mahārāja that this past month of June in America they sold seventy*-five standing orders. And that is remarkable, because all the schools are closed in June, and still they sold them books. They closed for the summer, and still they are ordering your books. In this street I think there is one library office . . . *Yes, it's Fifty . . . it's either Fifty*-fifth or Fifty-third, and it's called . . . it's one of main sub-branches. Yes, it's a very well known one. "Free rent"? "Free rent. Rent a safe deposit box for one year and we'll give you an extra six months free." But first you have to pay for one year. Chemical Bank. Huge buildings now everywhere. This is Rockefeller? No, Prabhupāda. Now everything looks like the Rockefeller Plaza. All of the buildings are built in that same style. Very opulent. Now every day I look out the window of our building and I think when it will come that we will have one of these buildings. It won't be long. You can see how big these are, Prabhupāda. This is Sixth Avenue. So we are between Sixth Avenue and . . .? No, we're between Eighth Avenue and Ninth. Actually, our building can be seen from here. Hare Kṛṣṇa is on the outside of it. I can see it, just on the left. Straight ahead. It's on the left straight ahead. It's a brown building on the left side. There's a tree on the top. It has gold letters going down the side of it saying Hare Kṛṣṇa. *It's the brownish one with the white . . . little white cabin*-type thing on the top of it. We're very lucky. We rented a garage one block away which can house four buses and twenty vans. Only one block away from it. It's very unusual. Otherwise . . . You have taken the whole garage? Yes, otherwise it's not possible to get parking space in New York. See the "Hare Kṛṣṇa" now, Prabhupāda, on the side of the building? Yes, yes. Jayānanda, maybe you should park on the right side. We can walk across the street rather than getting out . . . Yes, good idea. Pull over if you can on the right side, then Prabhupāda can see the building from across the street. (break) Yes, at least for the next five or ten years. (laughs) Then you'll have to change again. Then we want the Empire State Building. (laughter) We have a nice banner which flies in front of the building also. I think you should park on the right side, Jayānanda, unless . . . (indistinct discussion on where to park) All right, park on the left. See the banner? Yes. (end) Conversation -- July 10, 1976, New York So one thing is that when they are so much careful, that means the book is reacting. Otherwise why they are so careful that they may not come? What do you think? Yes, sometimes they specifically say: "The others may come, but that one man, we don't want him here." (laughs) He gets out twice as many books as anybody else. So, many books or not many books, why they are so much afraid of distributing these books? It means that the book is potent. Huh? It means that the books are potent. We are affecting the material energy. Everywhere in government, India especially, they do not want this movement. But the general tendency is . . . But people are appreciating, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness catches." Catches on. They're now appreciating. Was that a recent article? Yes, the general people are taking it up more and more. I mean there is a growing number of interested persons. That he has written. Not only are there numbers of us increasing, but there are many people who come once a week, once every month, who get magazine regularly. That number is increasing beyond what we can imagine, because it's due to the book distribution, Prabhupāda. We're coming due to two things—first the books, and second the association of devotees. But there's a general mass of people that are coming who are just getting the book, and they are beginning to follow simply on account of reading your books. This is a big article. Wow. There's another magazine article like that. *Rādhā*-vallabha's got it. Where is he? I don't know. *I asked . . . there's another very special magazine came out, and I asked Rādhā*-vallabha to bring it and present it to you. It's from New York, but I wanted him to read some of the things. He read the whole thing. It's a whole magazine devoted to meditation groups, and they have featured our society as the best. It's clear . . . By our features. Our Society was featured more than any others. They mentioned Maharishi and so many others, but they gave . . . We are also mentioned. Yes. They gave us the most space in the magazine. They did it in sections. There was a bit about kīrtana , there was a section about shaving the head, there's a whole section about Kṛṣṇa prasādam , how to offer it and cook it and everything. It was very nice. *He's getting it ready. He wants to read you certain things in the magazine. He likes to prepare things to discuss with you, Rādhā*-vallabha, controversial topics. What is that controversial? (laughter) *It's so nice. He reads things so on the walks, he can throw out scientific arguments and other things. He likes to do that. It's really funny, there's one article, one advertisement in the back of this magazine, meditation magazine. It says: "Special offer: Send in twenty*-five dollars and you will learn how to do transcendental meditation in one evening. And if you are not satisfied, you get your money back, but you get to keep your own private mantra ." This book is a real . . . it really shows you what the whole scene on spiritual groups is, how phony they are, except ours. Ours appears very legitimate from the magazine. But these others are complete hypocrisy. He especially canes Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Oh, he hates him. They did an experiment, and they tried out . . . if one chants . . . he claims that you have to have a special mantra that comes from him, and that will give you the bliss from transcendental meditation. But they did experiments where they just made up any mantra , just a few words, and concentrated on that, and the effect was exactly the same—sleep. They enter into a . . . Semiconscious. Yes, a very low conscious level. The metabolism is very much slowed down. The breathing and heart rate and everything goes right down, and they stay like that, completely relaxed, for twenty minutes, and then for a few minutes they come out. That is the . . . We can also do that; we'll hit them with our shoes. (laughter) For twenty minutes they can go unconscious. Free. We don't charge. This opening comment in this magazine is very good. It says: "What is surprising about the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is not its conquest of the West, the USA in particular. The cultural impact of this institution, borne on the shoulders of Westerners in the main, has already reached amazing proportions in India." That is my policy. That's nice. Whew. That's why they are afraid of you in India, Prabhupāda. The government is very much afraid. Oh, yes. Government is alarmed. Well how will they try to stop us? Through restrictive government. (door opens) Who is . . .? Let him come. Here he comes. (indistinct discussion) Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu? Prabhupāda wanted to see that boy, Arjuna Mallik? I went to find him. I sent someone to look for him, they haven't come back. You haven't seen him? It would be nice, because Prabhupāda wanted to see him. You know him? Arjuna Mallik? I only saw him just this morning. Just find him. But I have no idea where he's staying. 703 is the room number. All right. Svarūpa Dāmodara is looking. This first paragraph recognizes how in the last two years especially our esteem has improved. It says: "One has to see for oneself . . ." Ah, that Sadajivitlal you know. Oh, yes, very well. He says about me that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has smeared the black carbon of all other svāmīs ." (laughter) Black carbon. You know Sadajivitlal from Bombay. Oh, yes. He used to get very angry. He said: "I like your Prabhupāda very much, but why does he have to criticize all of our gurus ?" Now he is realizing. Because at Cross Maidan you were speaking very boldly that all these others are cheating. Yes, they are cheating. Is there any meaning that you pay so many dollars and take the mantra ? Mantra is such a thing for business? *In this meditation magazine one of the things that they sell, the special techniques is you take a ping*-pong ball, ping-pong, you know, that table tennis? And you cut it in half and you place the two halves on your eyes, and then that is called samādhi . (laughter) Who has said? *I'll show you the picture when he brings the magazine. They show a person very seriously meditating on two halves of a ping*-pong ball. You have to pay for it. (laughter) Would you like to go up on the roof today, Prabhupāda? *No, Prabhupāda said the sun is too much. Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa, he's been doing all of our . . . he's practically done the whole arrangement for the Ratha*-yātrā. Jayānanda is building, and he has done all of the permits, advertising, publicity, the posters—working at least fifteen hours a day for the last month very hard, to make it a very successful festival. I was thinking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that Haṁsadūta was telling me that he is planning to make . . . I think this article was dictated by Haṁsadūta. Ah. Our interviewer came. He was telling me that he was planning to make thousands of men, convert thousands of Indians. I was wondering, if thousands of Indians join us, how will the government feel? They cannot check. Really. They won't stop us. If they want to stop it, it will increase. Oh, right. Especially in Bengal, as soon as the Bengalis know that something is against the government, then they get very vehement. It's encouraging when they try to resist. They call us sāhībs . It says: "What urges the sāhībs and memsāhībs ?" That's how they refer to us. Our Māyāpur temple is known as sāhīb mandira . In Vṛndāvana, English, angrezi . *Gopāla told me that the guesthouse is doing better. He said that only that eleven rooms right now are occupied by non paying guests, and out of the overall forty*-four rooms, only four rooms are occupied by devotees. The devotees have been shifted elsewhere. And Guṇārṇava has been managing. That Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa boy was in Vṛndāvana? Stoka Kṛṣṇa. Stoka. He has left. He's back in Los Angeles now. He does not stick anywhere. *No. (looking at magazine) Whew! This picture of Ratha*-yātrā in London is very impressive. With smaller rathas . Yes, palanquins. But the crowd is bigger than ever. Yes, huge crowd. *That's when we, ah . . . Toṣaṇa, isn't that the picture that you showed them to show what our carts look like? He told the police, to get our permit, that our carts were like those little small rathas , so that we could get the permit. He said that we were having a parade with hand*-pulled floats. When they thought of hand-pulled floats, they thought of little wagons. They're going to get a shock. He's breaking the news to them slowly. We did that in Melbourne. But then gradually we let them see. Then they took us out for a trial run and everything. (break) Note down in the account book. (break) . . . presents us as a bona fide Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Vaiṣṇava cult. Says that the ISKCON center, the Māyāpur . . . "ISKCON plans to build in Māyāpur a world center for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will comprise an enormous temple . . ." This news has been very much advertised. When will we begin? As soon as we get the land. The land is coming along? Hmm? The land is coming along? Yes, government . . . They are going ahead with it. Two officials are in great favor: one Mr. Choudhuri, one Mr. Ganguli. It says that the temple will be so big that India has never seen such a huge temple. Choudhuri's wife has challenged that "If you are Hindu, then you will do it." To her husband. Oh. (laughter) It tells about . . . it quotes you as saying that how you began this movement. Two boys joined you, Chuck and Bruce—Brahmānanda and Acyutānanda, Charles Barnett and Bruce Scharf. Charles is called Chuck? Yes. (referring to prasādam ) What is that? (indistinct) . . . it's called rājkachorī . (laughter) Stuffed with dāl , potato, tamarind sauce and sour cream. Ṛṣi's making up for lost time. Where you learned this? In Kailash Shaksharya's. Huh? From Kailash Shaksharya's cook. At least I learned something there. From that cook, Kailash's cook? Yes. *He was very expert. In India, a girl, if she could cook nicely, then she is perfect. There is a ceremony, it is called bahubhat . After marriage the girl comes to her father*-in-law's house and there is a ceremony called bahubhat . In that bahubhat , the girl is to cook and distribute this food to all the relatives of her husband. If they say it is excellent, then she is accepted in this family. What if they say it is not excellent? Nobody says. (laughter) But the ceremony is made. The social system in India is that, "If I do not accept your food, then I do not take you within my inner circle. You remain outside." It's a great offense if you offer someone prasādam and they refuse. Yes. That means I am not accepting you as intimate. And if he accepts, then you cannot deny his friendship. About one hundred years ago in Bengal, in the aristocratic circle, the guests invited and very sumptuously food distributed, and then the gentlemen, guests, they come and see only, they will simply say: "Oh, it is very nicely done." They'll not eat, and go away. Then the foodstuff will be distributed among the servants. This was aristocracy. They'll not eat, they will simply see and appreciate, "Oh, you have so many varieties, very nice." Then they'll go. And the household servants and others, they eat it. Why didn't they eat it? That was the custom. That is a dry philosophy. (laughs) You have seen this article? No. Other news, after Mars? No? I haven't seen the newspapers yet. Might have some more . . . been taking pictures, photographs. Prabhupāda explained that the picture they took of Mars, they now say that there's . . . they pointed out that there's a similar canyon, the Grand Canyon, in Arizona. So they were reporting like this, and Prabhupāda said this is an indication that actually it is a picture of . . . they have unintentionally they have let out the information that actually the photo is simply a photograph of the Grand Canyon. He gave an example. There's a man in his room at night, and he hears a noise. So he says: "Oh, what's that sound?" And then back comes the reply, "I am not stealing." So no one asked the man to say what he was doing, but he unintentionally let it out what he was actually doing there. He just asked what the noise was, but he said: "I am not stealing." So in the same way, no one asked them to say anything about Arizona, but they let it out. They have disclosed unintentionally. That is going on. It is beyond their dream to go either to the moon planet or Mars planet. It is not possible. Not nowadays I say—I said it ten years ago. We're going to have a difficult time, with the scientists, about this moon. Hmm? We're going to have a difficult time about this moon and the sun relationship. Sunday, Monday. This is a lifelong project. (laughter) Nobody could answer, a simple question. (Hari-śauri explains "Sunday, Monday" question in background) According to Vedic astronomical calculations, sun is first. But does it have to do anything with distance, Prabhupāda? Hmm? Does it have to do anything with the distance? As the sun is recorded first? *No, according to them if sun is first, then it will be ninety*-three millions miles. And if the moon is still away, one million six hundred thousand miles, it becomes ninety-five million miles. How they are going ninety-five millions of miles in four days? No, on that ground it is reasonable to know that they couldn't go there, but . . . Therefore I say they couldn't go there. Their asset is Arizona, that's all. All this propaganda has gone, and at last they wanted to satisfy by delivering some sand and rock, that's all. Actually the business was not done. They say even if there's life on another planet, at most it could be bacteria. Nonsense. If bacteria is there, why not others? Well the thing is that if they say that there's other life, then they'd have to show it. But they don't know what's there 'cause they've never been. So they have to show either there's no life and here's some rocks, which they got from this planet, or at most there's only bacteria, which they can also produce here and say it's there. But they can't show any advanced life because they don't know. They have never gone. Simply bluff. That is my point. Whenever they don't know something, they say it doesn't exist. I have got evidence, our Vedic literature. *We have other informations other than Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ? Huh? We have other evidences? We have evidence from astronomy, Jyoti-śāstra. Jyoti-śāstra . Śrīla Prabhupāda, Manasvī is here. Huh? Manasvī. Shall I tell him to come in? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sit down. Wherefrom you are coming? New Jersey, Hoboken. Where is your child? She's downstairs. With whom he is there? With her brother. So? What is that? This is the magazine I was telling you about, Transcendental Meditation Today . That is the name of the magazine? Yes. The feature article is . . . This is our? Big article all about our Society. Oh, my picture also. *"Prabhupāda, ācārya *-founder." Tells all about you and your books. It especially mentions your books. This is a whole page devoted about your books. This is the dome downstairs. "Hare Kṛṣṇa Meditation. Who is Kṛṣṇa?" (laughs) "The Kṛṣṇa Cut." It tells about the haircut, śikhā . (laughter) "Kṛṣṇa cut." (laughs) Then in the back there's more articles about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There's the . . . here, "Food for the gods, prasādam ." Describes what standard we have for making the prasādam , how you can't taste it, you have to be very clean. *Here's that . . . remember I was telling you about that meditation on the ping*-pong balls? Oh. (laughter) "Ganzfeld effect." They give it a name and make it sound very important, and then sell it for a thousand dollars. Who's name? Ganzfeld. They say the Ganzfeld effect. Who is Ganzfeld? Somebody know? There's an article about Maharishi. (aside) You want to read it? There's some points in here, it says: "Profit without honor." This man hates Maharishi, says he's completely bogus. His picture is hateful. It says: "Profit without any honor." He quotes you in here. What is that? It says: "Swami Prabhupāda, spiritual leader of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and Bill Faill, Durban, South Africa, of the Natal Mercury Reporter , had the following dialogue—Bill Faill: Do you think that Transcendental Meditation is helping people? *Prabhupāda: They do not know what real meditation is. Their meditation is simply a farce, another cheating process by the so*-called svāmīs and yogīs . So everyone is talking about meditation, but no one knows what meditation really is. These bluffers use the word meditation, but they do not know the proper subject for meditation. They are simply talking bogus propaganda. Bill Faill: But isn't meditation helpful in getting people to think straight? No. Real meditation means to achieve a state in which the mind is saturated by God consciousness." *Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ ( SB 12.13.1). This is the Vedic version. When one man's mind is fully absorbed in the Supersoul, Viṣṇu, that is called meditation. And Bhagavad-gītā confirms: These are the Vedic version. These rascals—some light, some this, some that. There are some quotes here from people describing Maharishi's meditation. It says: "A Denver housewife said: 'I turned off when I found that TM' " that's what they call Transcendental Meditation, " 'I turned off when I found that TM is trying to sell me meditation the same way Proctor and Gamble sells me soap.' " Gamble? Big soap company. Proctor and Gamble manufacture all kinds of soaps and detergents, so she's saying that the way they sell Transcendental Meditation is the same as the way they sell soap. Very commercialized. They have here proof that his mantra is no different than any ordinary sound. It says: "In a Stanford Research Institute experiment, a group of TM trainees was compared to a control group who had been taught a fake mantra that they believed would be effective. In both groups some subjects were able to bring unpleasant psychosomatic symptoms under control. Three of these dropped out of the TM training group. Their symptoms returned. Two dropped out of the control group, their symptoms came back too. Evidence like that suggests that whatever works in the TM system, it does not depend upon the mystical mantra ." Let their men come and talk with our men in a public meeting. Then people will understand what is the difference. They have a catalog, Transcendental Meditation University. It's very well done, nice colors and anything, first class. They spend a lot of money and a lot of thoughts how to bring . . . how to attract the students. He says their University's just closed down. Oh, the one at Iowa? No, the one in Majorca, in Spain. This is the headquarters, Iowa, the main University. We saw the catalog. It contains everything, all sciences. This article explains that when he first appeared in public, he presented himself as a Hindu representative of Śaṅkarācārya's cult, but then later on he concocted this Transcendental Meditation, and then he presented it as a science so that he could get government grants to teach it in schools and things like this. They have another guru here, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. He has also come? Yes. His group is big here. He's very popular in America. Eighteen thousand disciples. He says: "It does not matter to whom one surrenders. The relevance is in the act of surrendering. But because the human mind sees things in terms of relationships, surrender to a guru is often useful. The guru is a step toward the impersonal divine, a step toward surrender to the existence." He makes a comment about sannyāsa as well, I think. He initiates sannyāsa , they call themselves neo- sannyāsa . "At initiation a sannyāsī receives a new name, an ochre robe and a mālā , a string of beads holding a locket that frames a photograph of Bhagwan." Bhagwan Rajneesh, not Bhagavān. The one who says it's not necessary to have a spiritual master. He says: "The picture is not mine. Had it been mine I would have hesitated to put it there. The picture only appears as mine." That's word jugglery. (laughter) The picture is of himself, he says: "It is not me. If it was me I would not have put it there. It only appears to be me." They want something very cheap and easy to attain. Here's his method. First they engage in breathing. It says: "The really successful meditator sounds like an exhausted sea lion." He says: "If you feel like dancing, dance, laugh, scream, sing, express your love, your hate, your anger, your jealousy. Do not condemn what happens; do not condone it. Just go mad. Express whatever is within you totally, intensely." And here's his mantra , " Hoo hoo hoo. " That's his mantra . They were doing this in Bhopal. In Bhopal, we were there when we had our Jeeps. So in the same place we were staying they let this group Rajneesh do it. So they were going with that mantra , " Hoo hoo ." So we were standing out from the balcony shouting, "Kṛṣṇa, that's who." Every morning they would do that meditation, and we would answer "Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) They call his method "chaotic meditation." They say? That's the heading, it says "Chaotic Meditation." That's the name of it. After they go " Hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo . . ." What about . . . what they have written about us? About us? A big article. Everything is favorable. They didn't say one bad thing about us. It says: "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. The group above are performing a kīrtana , the chanting of the names of Kṛṣṇa, the Vedic Deity they believe to be the supreme personification of Godhead. They are shown before the doorway of 1 Astor Plaza in Manhattan's Times Square area. Their chant, increasingly familiar on street corners in all large cities across the country, runs, 'Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.' These Kṛṣṇa devotees belong to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, less formally known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement and still less formally to the man in the street as the Harry Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Actually, Prabhupāda, one . . . Harry Kṛṣṇa. They think that we're worshiping a person, some material man, by the name of Harry Kṛṣṇa. They think that your name is Harry Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) In Boston they once wrote an article in the newspaper, the Boston Globe , they said: "I walked into the temple room and there he was, a big picture of Harry Kṛṣṇa sitting on a big throne." (laughter) On the vyāsāsana . Harry is an English . . . Harry, Harrison, like that. They are saying Kṛṣṇa's name. *Should I read more? "There are several hundred thousand members of the movement . . . several hundred thousand members of the movement throughout the world. Ten thousand in New York City alone." Actually, there are at least ten thousand followers. "Of these, about a hundred and fifty are full*-time students and live at 340 West Fifty-fifth Street, an eleven-story former Josephine Baird Home of the Roman Catholic Carmelite Nuns." This was a nunnery, Carmelite nuns. "The Hare Kṛṣṇa center on West Fifty-fifth Street draws about five hundred lay devotees and curiosity-seekers from the metropolitan area every Sunday. Open house begins at five p.m. A great drawing card is the serving of prasādam , food specially prepared for and offered to Lord Kṛṣṇa before being distributed to the public. The eating of prasādam (see the article 'Food of the Gods' on a later page), is believed by members of the movement to convey important spiritual benefits—for example, the cleansing of karma due to past sins. Movement members are not unaware of the more immediate and mundane effect. Prasādam is our secret weapon,' said Alaṅkāra dāsa, spokesman for the center. 'It gets them in here, and then they can get the message.' Les Tursley, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, India-based senior member of the movement, has said of prasādam in his country . . ." They think you're an Indian. They think I'm an Indian. " 'If anyone comes around to our prasādam distribution program, that means he is hungry. If he is hungry, that means he cannot listen to our philosophy. If his hunger is not satisfied, he'll never become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the point. If we just went around with a program of speaking and kīrtana , they would come once or twice but they wouldn't see its practical value. But if you give them prasādam daily with kīrtana and speaking, eventually you can convince them, "Look, this is our most practical way of life. Why don't you come and live with us completely and work with us?" That's a quote from an article in Back to Godhead . "Though food is far more plentiful in the United States than in India, prasādam appeal seems to work its magic here just as well. The entire movement began only ten years ago in a storefront temple in Manhattan's Lower East Side. Today it owns the largest publishing house of Hindu classics, many in demand for leading university courses. The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust in Los Angeles, the world's largest, last year's gross of one million dollars; *incense*-producing Spiritual Sky Scented Products Company; *and Kṛṣṇa Fashions Incorporated, a wholesale clothing manufacturer. An important portion of the movement's income comes from the contributions of lay devotees, who are successful businessmen. More comes from street*-corner solicitation of alms by devotees during kīrtana . How significant the last is was shown recently by the closing down of elevator service in the New York center. 'A lot of us are going on pilgrimage to India,' said Alaṅkāra dāsa. 'There won't be many around to beg. These elevators cost us $2,200 a month to run. So we're cutting down except for essential services.' " We don't do that anymore. That was the previous mismanagement. Someone had the idea that if you turn off the elevator, that's very good. But I told him if you're not going to run the elevator, then why did you move here? They had people walking up eleven stories, and it was crazy, just to save . . . anyway, "These include moving foodstuffs and milk into the building. Much of the food comes from a 350-acre ISKCON-owned dairy farm in Academia, Pennsylvania, one of the six similar facilities in this country and Canada." They show pictures of devotees in the temple, devotees taking prasādam and two lady devotees. "The yoga ," it says under the captions, "monks take breakfast by hand in rows on the dining area floor." Here it says, "Saried women devotees dwell in cloister atmosphere of the center." Then "The yoga of devotion: Tilaka of clay paste marks the devotee as a member of ISKCON sect. Central shrine in the temple is the focal point of twice a day services." A picture of Rādhā-Govinda. " 'Our life is our meditation' said a śikhā -ed, saffron-clad monk in the Hare Kṛṣṇa center. 'Everything we do is offered to Śrī Kṛṣṇa, but in addition to that there is the personal chanting, most . . .' " (break) ". . . slung from the devotee's neck. He often counts the beads without taking his hand from the pouch. In the early hours the Hare Kṛṣṇa center buzzes with a droning sound, difficult to identify by the stranger who does not know that it comes from the monks, who are beginning their required sixteen rounds." They have given everything very detailed. "The personal chanting sometimes occurs in unusual situations—while escorting a visitor to the center, while waiting to complete a phone call, or even during pauses in a conversation." (laughter) Devotees are always chanting. " 'The mahāmantra is the only mantra needed' the devotee says. Besides the sixteen rounds, devotees are expected to observe four rules. They must abstain from meat-eating, intoxication, gambling and illicit sex. Illicit sex is defined as any sexual act other than that intended for procreation. Sex outside of marriage is forbidden. Married, full-time devotees may have sexual relationship once a month at a time propitious for procreation. All the devotee's activities are regarded as bhakti-yoga , the yoga of devotion. He regards everything he does as service to God. The name he is given at initiation is followed by the word dāsa , 'a servant.' Full-time ISKCON devotees adopt Vedic dress, one objective being to keep others aware of Kṛṣṇa. Women wear sārīs , the men dhotīs; *both may wear shawls. The men shave their heads except for a single lock of hair at the back. (See the article 'The Kṛṣṇa Cut.') The lock, called a śikhā , identifies the followers of Kṛṣṇa." Actually, no one can imitate us because no one wants to give up their hair, so no one will try to make believe they are devotees. "Shaving the head announces renunciation of material pleasures. The tilaka is a mark made with clay—two narrow vertical stripes on the forehead meeting in a triangular swatch on the bridge of the nose. It identifies the body as a temple to be used only in the service of God. Full*-time students follow a rigorously monastic life. They arise at four a.m. in the morning, begin four hours of prayer and chanting. At nine o'clock they have breakfast, seated cross-legged on mats on the floor. The men eat apart from the women. During the day devotees work at various preaching programs or at regular jobs. At seven p.m. devotional services are held in the center's temple. In Manhattan this features an ornate shrine including representations of Kṛṣṇa and His consort, Rādhe. Both are costumed sumptuously with elaborate care; *both wear festoons of flowers. Visitors are cautioned, 'When you go in the temple remember that these statues you see are not representations of the Deities, they are the Deities. Kṛṣṇa is in everything. Kṛṣṇa is everywhere.' Temple kīrtana ." There's a picture. "Eleven*-story New York sect's center is former Carmelite Baird home." Picture of the temple. "Services in the temple are attended by about five hundred every Sunday. Many of these are from New York's Hindu population. Frequently husbands bring their pregnant wives, dedicating their unborn child to Kṛṣṇa. The kīrtana begins with the chanting of the mahā-mantra , slowly at first and melodiously. Later the chant will speed up as the spirit of the devotion spreads. Often the most rapid and intense chanting is done by a hard-core knot of dhotī -ed men before the curtains of the shrine." The devotees get in one group and start . . . (laughter) Hard-core devotees. "The rhythm approaches that of an express train, and the atmosphere is apt to remind a lay visitor of an old-fashioned football rally. Some of the onlookers try to keep up with the central group, clapping their hands, swaying their bodies, throwing arms upwards and, among the younger, adapting modern dance steps to the rhythm. When the shrine curtains are drawn back, devotees kneel and press their foreheads . . ." Who has introduced this peculiar dancing? It just evolved. (laughs) We were speaking about that the other day. It's changed from the original dancing that you showed us to something else. Too much like the modern dancing. Hmm. I think this is not good. Shall I read on, Prabhupāda? "The service has become . . ." What way should we dance, Śrīla Prabhupāda? With our hands outstretched? Sometimes the devotees like to jump around. Is that all right? In ecstasy one can do anything, that is another . . . but artificially to do something is not good. But if one feels like jumping, it is all right? Anything artificial is not required. So running back and forth is not . . . No, no, that should not be an artificial. We don't dance for show; we dance for the pleasure of the Deities. No, we're not professional dancers. "The service has become so frenetic that the almost folksy, matter of fact preaching of the Swami makes a stark contrast. 'Some people are against us because they say we teach children to smile. Well isn't that too bad. We make children smile—we are bad. We try to teach them that life should be a joyful thing—we're evil. Well that's too bad, isn't it? ' " Who's that? That's crazy. This is theory. (laughter) So he has not returned with the key? Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Hmm. Still more? *Yes. "After the sermon, more chanting. Now it really becomes frantic, and even compelling. Many curious first*-time visitors begin to take up the mahā-mantra chant. The hard-core group at the shrine seems to be completely carried away. The terrazo floor literally vibrates. Gradually the crowd begins to thin. Other things are happening in the center. On the third floor there is a traditional Vedic play in costume, acted with enthusiasm." (sound of kīrtana ) It's going downstairs somewhere, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They're getting everybody together to go out on saṅkīrtana party. It says here, "On the second floor there is a store which attracts many visitors who want to buy Indian costumes, jewelry and the movement's books. Prasādam is served in the basement restaurant. Visitors eat at tables in the same area where monks had breakfast on the floor. The prasādam features Hindu dishes served in the compartments of plasticized paper mess trays." Then it goes on. Now there's another article about you. (aside) Why are they holding a kīrtana now? *They're getting a kīrtana party together to go out on hari*-nāma down at Times Square. (indistinct conversation among devotees) Hmm. What does he say? *"Prabhupāda, ācārya -founder, born Abhay Charan De in India in 1895, the founder . . . future founder- ācārya , spiritual leader of ISKCON, came under the spiritual direction of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja, ascetic scholar and preacher who had devoted his life to the spread of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Three years later, shortly before he died, Bhaktisiddhānta ordered Abhay to spread the Kṛṣṇa faith in the English language. One of the ways that Abhay, now known as Prabhupāda—'one at whose feet masters sit'—did that was to begin to translate the classic Vedic literature, but it was not until thirty years after he was charged by his spiritual mentor that he was able to make a trip to the United States. He arrived in Boston in September 1965, a spry but grim-faced passenger of seventy years on the steamer Jaladuta . He had forty rupees in his pocket and a metal suitcase full of his books and translations. Finding his way to New York City, he set up a storefront temple at 26 Second Avenue in the East Village section. Gradually he drew a small coterie of students around him, mostly through his preaching in Tompkinson Park. As his movement grew, he found backers among his converts. Hare Kṛṣṇa centers were established in Boston, Buffalo and San Francisco, and an appreciation of Prabhupāda's Vedic translations by American university authorities, Columbia, Princeton, Yale professors among others, permitted the establishment of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust in Los Angeles. The Trust launched a promotion of Prabhupāda's translations and original works under the logo of the Living Library of Transcendental Knowledge. Remarkably, in the face of a worldwide economic recession, the Trust's book and magazine sales reached nine million in 1975, up 34.5 percent over 1974. Some of this was due to the determined promotion of groups such as the hundred-man Rādhā-Dāmodara group, which criss-crosses the country in six Greyhound-type buses and ten vans giving lectures and kīrtanas at college university campuses. Now eighty*-one years old, Prabhupāda still works at his writings and the spiritual direction of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. His translation of Bhagavad-gītā , the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is , the most widely used in the Western world, is in great demand by professors of Indology and Vedic literature." He has given advertisement for our books. Oh, yes. Very favorable. The amazing thing is that he's an impersonalist. Impersonalist? The man who wrote all of these articles, he's an impersonalist. Here's a picture of him. Oh, he's American? Oh, yes. He thinks there are different types of meditation that all work, and ours is one type, bona fide, that works. There are also other types. *The article goes on—I don't know if you want to hear it all. You want to hear it? Okay. Here's this thing called "Who is Kṛṣṇa?" "Kṛṣṇa, viewed by ISKCON as the supreme personification of Godhead, is said to have many pastimes in which He assumes different appearances. One such is that of Gopālajī, the cowherd boy (see picture, 'Cowherd Boy') He can appear in other forms such as four*-armed Nārāyaṇa. Most often Kṛṣṇa is portrayed as having light blue skin and, by Western standards, a soft and effeminate physique. He is said to be full in the six opulences: beauty, strength, fame, wealth, knowledge and renunciation. He is said to be all-attractive. Kṛṣṇa incarnates on one planet after another in infinite universes. The last time He appeared on earth as Kṛṣṇa was five thousand years ago. He will not return in that form for another four hundred thousand years. But five hundred years ago He appeared in His incarnation of Lord Caitanya, who taught people of the mahā-mantra and started the Kṛṣṇa consciousness in its present state. According to the Bhagavad-gītā , Kṛṣṇa hungers for the devotion of His followers." Very nicely put. "This devotion in its pure sense takes the form of bhakti-yoga , the dedication of one's every action to Kṛṣṇa. Thus to use one's sense for one's own pleasure is to deny Kṛṣṇa devotion and accumulate negative karma . Kṛṣṇa has a consort, Rādhe, but She is considered only as an extension of His own pleasure principle, since He is all things. It is through Her intercession that devotees seek favors from Kṛṣṇa. According to ISKCON, Kṛṣṇa is the same God worshiped as Jehovah, Allah and so on." That is the explanation of who Kṛṣṇa is. He could write for Back to Godhead . Huh? He could write for Back to Godhead . Yes, it is good. *Very good. Then there is a part called "Hare Kṛṣṇa Meditation." "The Hare Kṛṣṇas practice bhakti , the yoga of devotion. They have their mahā*-mantra , continual recitation of which will have a meditative effect. By integrating recitation of the mantra with a life of rigidly formulated devotional activities, it would seem that devotees actually live their meditation. Such a life of living meditation is not without parallel in secular fields. It is believed that the spiritual form of alchemy served this purpose; that is, an alchemist repeated the same experimental routine over and over until it became automatized, though still requiring some slight personal involvement." He's getting a little far out here. "It was expected that the result . . ." This is material. Anyway, ". . . practitioners of Western magical disciplines sought for similar results. Meditation takes effect in terms of the ambiance in which it is practiced. In the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement there are certain to be transcendental experiences. They would be in accord with Vedic teachings, but their exact nature has not proven easy of discovery, since devotees insist that their sole aim in life is to be of service to Kṛṣṇa." We're not interested in experiencing all of these special things. Yes. That is very nice. Very nice point. Then there's a part about the Kṛṣṇa cut. Says here, "Badge. The badge of the monks is a single lock that hangs from a rear of shaven head. As a precisely trimmed śikhā is a matter of pride, monks often cooperate in shaving one another. Hair is buzzed off by clipper (left side), leaving a bristly surface (center)"—shows the bristly surface. He has taken photograph of it? (laughter) Yes. ". . . which is lathered up and shaved with a safety razor (right side). Even more striking than their saffron dhotīs and shawls is the ISKCON men's practice of shaving their heads with the exception of one long lock in the rear, known as the śikhā . The first reaction of the layman is "Why do they do it?" The next is "How do they do it?" The Hare Kṛṣṇas themselves advance three different answers to the first question. Some say that in countries that have hot climates, the religious have always shaved their heads to ensure cleanliness. A clean body reflects a pure spirit." One letter should be written to him that, "You have taken so much trouble to describe Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, so thank you for your patience. Now we shall request you to read our books and review it. That will be real presentation of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Now you have studied superficially, and if you seriously study our books, you'll get more knowledge and you'll be able to give description of the movement more definitely." You want to hear about what else he has to say? *Um*-hmm. *"Others insist that the style of shaving the head identifies devotees of various spiritual orders. The long śikhās marks a man as a follower of Kṛṣṇa. Still another group says that the head*-shaving simply stands for renunciation of the material world, its values and its pleasures. One or more of those reasons may be the true one. Possibly all of them have a multi-determined . . . have multi-determined the Kṛṣṇa cut. The 'how' of the cut is simplicity itself. Commonly two men cut each others' hair. Our pictures show how. Phase one of the cutting, known as the buzz-off, is done with ordinary . . ." (laughter) Buzz off? (laughter) *Yes. ". . . is done with ordinary hair clipper. The post buzz*-off effect . . ." (laughter) This guy's made a science out of it. (laughter) ". . . shown in the second picture. Next, the prickly sconce." What is that meaning? *Prickly sconce. Prickly means short*-haired, and sconce means . . .? Look it up in the dictionary. (laughter) People like to think they are scientific like this. *It says: "The prickly sconce is lathered up with an old*-fashioned mug and brush and shaved with a safety razor. It is considered of paramount importance that the base of the śikhā be shaved round evenly. The shavee sometimes shows some nervousness about this." He gets nervous that they'll cut his śikhā off. This man has caught every detail. Good writer. Yes, he's a good one. It says "Sconce: crown of head." It's an old term for the crown of the head. There's a special article about prasādam , Prabhupāda, called "Food for the Gods." "Of all the ways of getting to heaven, or nirvāṇa , or whatever your ideal place may be, the Hare Kṛṣṇa way is one of the most pleasant. Believers of this faith are convinced that you can eat your way into higher spiritual realms. Of course, this doesn't mean that food itself is sacred and the more you eat the holier you are. To begin with, there is a strict prohibition against the killing of animals, so meat, fish and eggs are not included in the diet at all of the Kṛṣṇa devotees. Furthermore, there are many special rules for preparing the food which may be offered to Kṛṣṇa to be blessed by Him and therefore to bring blessings to anyone who partakes of it." Should I read this whole article? *Um*-hmm. "The recipes given below, taken from the Hare Kṛṣṇa Cookbook"—another good advertisement, and they give you at least three or four recipes in here. They give recipes for, the recipes are for . . . Anyway, he has given more pages for our movement. *Oh, yes, he's given us three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve pages. And the whole magazine, including many advertisements . . . actually the nonadvertised part is about fifty*-five pages, of which we have twelve. At least one fifth of the book is for Hare Kṛṣṇa. The other groups only have three pages, four pages. And he blasts them mostly. Some of them are really nonsense. Here's one called the Deichmann Experiment. You stare at a vase . . . Another meditation. Yes, this is another one, Deichmann Experiment. Then they have one about Zen Buddhism, it shows Zen meditation. Here's a Zen master sitting in front of a basketball. I don't know why. They have a meditation they call Zen basketball. Oh. We went to one seminar once when they were teaching Zen basketball. *Here's another one, "Hypnotism or Meditation?" "A hypnotist discusses a question that many face." Because they accuse that we're hypnotizing, so they're trying to distinguish in this article what is hypnotism, what is meditation. Then here's another one, "The Art of Awareness." This woman is supposed to be a great transcendental artist. You can see some of her famous pictures. Here's a picture called "Congregations of Souls." And here's another picture called "Temple Stones." Then this is the Ganzfeld Effect. (laughter) Ping*-pong balls. Says here, "The apparently pop-eyed lady is not a visitor from another dimension nor the victim of a sudden surprise. She is the subject of an experiment into the nature of meditation and some of the effects of the processes. The ping-pong ball halves present a completely continuous visual field. There's no object in it that can hold her attention. After staring at the insides of the ping-pong balls for a while, she will begin to feel peaceful and . . ." Actually she does? *Oh, yes, that's the meditation. They put the ping*-pong ball, and then it describes, "She will feel peaceful and serene. At the same time she may not be able to tell whether her eyes are open or closed. She will see neither white nor black nor any shade in between. She will have the experience of not seeing. At that point, which the subject in this kind . . ." With the eyes closed, then not seeing is there already. (laughter) What is the use of meditating? *You aren't going to see very much with two ping*-pong balls over your eyes, are you? (laughter) *"The white hemispheres covering her eyes are halves of ping*-pong balls. The wires lead off to an electroencephalograph, E.E.G. It keeps a record of changes in her brainwave output. At that point when she is not seeing, which subjects in this kind of experiment call 'blanking out,' the electroencephalograph will record a brainwave output well into the alpha range." They also tell you how to make the Ganzfeld, how to cut the . . . it shows a ping-pong ball and a knife. (laughter) This guy is weird. This thing about alpha range, this is becoming a big thing. They think that if a person gets into this alpha range of brain stimulation, then his meditation is successful. They're trying to figure it all out scientifically. They're trying to use all kinds of machines and wires to measure consciousness. They have one group that has tin cans attached to wires, and they hold them in their hand, and then they measure it on the machine as they meditate. And when they meditate right, the needle on the machine goes right in the middle, and they think they have achieved perfection. Here is an article called "Travels Beyond the Body: What is it that travels, and what is it that's seen?" They're talking about traveling beyond your body. Here's an advertisement, "Because I have taken the mystery out of transcendental meditation, I will teach you to master transcendental meditation in a single evening." "About the author." Then it says: "Free private mantra based on your own name, selected by the great Norbell, translated by his special Sanskrit system, so that no one else in America has the same mantra twice. No other system of transcendental meditation . . ." What is this? Maharishi? Maharishi Yogi? No, this is competition. No, this isn't . . . This is the competition. *This man says: "Norbell, for over thirty years his unrelenting thirst for spiritual fulfillment has taken him to the most remote corners of the globe to finally become one of the few Westerners in our time who has ever gained acceptance as an equal among the holy masters of both India and Tibet. He has also mastered the scientific secrets of Western knowledge in America's most highly regarded universities. In America alone over the past decades, tens of thousands have come to Carnegie Hall in New York and dozens of other centers of public hearing all to hear him." He says: "Meditation can make this claim alone, and it's yours to keep. Your own mantra free, even if you return the report itself. Mail this coupon at no risk today. 'Gentlemen, please rush me a copy of Norbell's five minute de*-mystified transcendental meditation.' " (laughter) De-mystified, taking the mystery out. "Confidential report. 'I enclose nine dollars and ninety-eight cents in full payment. I understand that I may examine this confidential report for thirty days at your risk or money back. Also send me my own private mantra , specially selected for me by Master Norbell and mine absolutely free, even if I return the report, with every cent of my money back.' " It says here—these are the benefits of the mantra —one of the benefits is, it says here, one of the benefits, "and as an extra benefit of such heightened personal magnetism, a simple shift in the focus of your daily meditations can give you great new sexual and romantic powers, new joys in love." They're all cheaters. It's just another con. *Here's another group called Arika. This Arika costs three thousand dollars, this process. They charge three thousand dollars for a ninety*-day course. Part of their whole meditation is they have cocktail parties. They drink liquor and they meet and they have these therapy, and they charge him money to go to a cocktail party and call it yoga . Anyway, it's got a good article about us. You want to keep it to show guests who come, the article? No. (laughter) Anyone who reads that magazine will immediately become attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there's no comparison. It's got the best article I've ever seen, though, about us, in great detail. It really reports the details. Hmm. This is also good article. (break) Hmm! Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa, where is the key? Key? Distribute this prasādam . . . (indistinct) You can see how he's cooking very . . . he's the most expert I've ever seen, and he knows these special preparations. He can cook many varieties of kachorī . (end) Conversation -- July 10, 1976, New York So one thing is that when they are so much careful, that means the book is reacting. Otherwise why they are so careful that they may not come? What do you think? Yes, sometimes they specifically say: "The others may come, but that one man, we don't want him here." (laughs) He gets out twice as many books as anybody else. So, many books or not many books, why they are so much afraid of distributing these books? It means that the book is potent. Huh? It means that the books are potent. We are affecting the material energy. Everywhere in government, India especially, they do not want this movement. But the general tendency is . . . But people are appreciating, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness catches." Catches on. They're now appreciating. Was that a recent article? Yes, the general people are taking it up more and more. I mean there is a growing number of interested persons. That he has written. Not only are there numbers of us increasing, but there are many people who come once a week, once every month, who get magazine regularly. That number is increasing beyond what we can imagine, because it's due to the book distribution, Prabhupāda. We're coming due to two things—first the books, and second the association of devotees. But there's a general mass of people that are coming who are just getting the book, and they are beginning to follow simply on account of reading your books. This is a big article. Wow. There's another magazine article like that. *Rādhā*-vallabha's got it. Where is he? I don't know. *I asked . . . there's another very special magazine came out, and I asked Rādhā*-vallabha to bring it and present it to you. It's from New York, but I wanted him to read some of the things. He read the whole thing. It's a whole magazine devoted to meditation groups, and they have featured our society as the best. It's clear . . . By our features. Our Society was featured more than any others. They mentioned Maharishi and so many others, but they gave . . . We are also mentioned. Yes. They gave us the most space in the magazine. They did it in sections. There was a bit about kīrtana , there was a section about shaving the head, there's a whole section about Kṛṣṇa prasādam , how to offer it and cook it and everything. It was very nice. *He's getting it ready. He wants to read you certain things in the magazine. He likes to prepare things to discuss with you, Rādhā*-vallabha, controversial topics. What is that controversial? (laughter) *It's so nice. He reads things so on the walks, he can throw out scientific arguments and other things. He likes to do that. It's really funny, there's one article, one advertisement in the back of this magazine, meditation magazine. It says: "Special offer: Send in twenty*-five dollars and you will learn how to do transcendental meditation in one evening. And if you are not satisfied, you get your money back, but you get to keep your own private mantra ." This book is a real . . . it really shows you what the whole scene on spiritual groups is, how phony they are, except ours. Ours appears very legitimate from the magazine. But these others are complete hypocrisy. He especially canes Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Oh, he hates him. They did an experiment, and they tried out . . . if one chants . . . he claims that you have to have a special mantra that comes from him, and that will give you the bliss from transcendental meditation. But they did experiments where they just made up any mantra , just a few words, and concentrated on that, and the effect was exactly the same—sleep. They enter into a . . . Semiconscious. Yes, a very low conscious level. The metabolism is very much slowed down. The breathing and heart rate and everything goes right down, and they stay like that, completely relaxed, for twenty minutes, and then for a few minutes they come out. That is the . . . We can also do that; we'll hit them with our shoes. (laughter) For twenty minutes they can go unconscious. Free. We don't charge. This opening comment in this magazine is very good. It says: "What is surprising about the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is not its conquest of the West, the USA in particular. The cultural impact of this institution, borne on the shoulders of Westerners in the main, has already reached amazing proportions in India." That is my policy. That's nice. Whew. That's why they are afraid of you in India, Prabhupāda. The government is very much afraid. Oh, yes. Government is alarmed. Well how will they try to stop us? Through restrictive government. (door opens) Who is . . .? Let him come. Here he comes. (indistinct discussion) Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu? Prabhupāda wanted to see that boy, Arjuna Mallik? I went to find him. I sent someone to look for him, they haven't come back. You haven't seen him? It would be nice, because Prabhupāda wanted to see him. You know him? Arjuna Mallik? I only saw him just this morning. Just find him. But I have no idea where he's staying. 703 is the room number. All right. Svarūpa Dāmodara is looking. This first paragraph recognizes how in the last two years especially our esteem has improved. It says: "One has to see for oneself . . ." Ah, that Sadajivitlal you know. Oh, yes, very well. He says about me that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has smeared the black carbon of all other svāmīs ." (laughter) Black carbon. You know Sadajivitlal from Bombay. Oh, yes. He used to get very angry. He said: "I like your Prabhupāda very much, but why does he have to criticize all of our gurus ?" Now he is realizing. Because at Cross Maidan you were speaking very boldly that all these others are cheating. Yes, they are cheating. Is there any meaning that you pay so many dollars and take the mantra ? Mantra is such a thing for business? *In this meditation magazine one of the things that they sell, the special techniques is you take a ping*-pong ball, ping-pong, you know, that table tennis? And you cut it in half and you place the two halves on your eyes, and then that is called samādhi . (laughter) Who has said? *I'll show you the picture when he brings the magazine. They show a person very seriously meditating on two halves of a ping*-pong ball. You have to pay for it. (laughter) Would you like to go up on the roof today, Prabhupāda? *No, Prabhupāda said the sun is too much. Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa, he's been doing all of our . . . he's practically done the whole arrangement for the Ratha*-yātrā. Jayānanda is building, and he has done all of the permits, advertising, publicity, the posters—working at least fifteen hours a day for the last month very hard, to make it a very successful festival. I was thinking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that Haṁsadūta was telling me that he is planning to make . . . I think this article was dictated by Haṁsadūta. Ah. Our interviewer came. He was telling me that he was planning to make thousands of men, convert thousands of Indians. I was wondering, if thousands of Indians join us, how will the government feel? They cannot check. Really. They won't stop us. If they want to stop it, it will increase. Oh, right. Especially in Bengal, as soon as the Bengalis know that something is against the government, then they get very vehement. It's encouraging when they try to resist. They call us sāhībs . It says: "What urges the sāhībs and memsāhībs ?" That's how they refer to us. Our Māyāpur temple is known as sāhīb mandira . In Vṛndāvana, English, angrezi . *Gopāla told me that the guesthouse is doing better. He said that only that eleven rooms right now are occupied by non paying guests, and out of the overall forty*-four rooms, only four rooms are occupied by devotees. The devotees have been shifted elsewhere. And Guṇārṇava has been managing. That Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa boy was in Vṛndāvana? Stoka Kṛṣṇa. Stoka. He has left. He's back in Los Angeles now. He does not stick anywhere. *No. (looking at magazine) Whew! This picture of Ratha*-yātrā in London is very impressive. With smaller rathas . Yes, palanquins. But the crowd is bigger than ever. Yes, huge crowd. *That's when we, ah . . . Toṣaṇa, isn't that the picture that you showed them to show what our carts look like? He told the police, to get our permit, that our carts were like those little small rathas , so that we could get the permit. He said that we were having a parade with hand*-pulled floats. When they thought of hand-pulled floats, they thought of little wagons. They're going to get a shock. He's breaking the news to them slowly. We did that in Melbourne. But then gradually we let them see. Then they took us out for a trial run and everything. (break) Note down in the account book. (break) . . . presents us as a bona fide Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Vaiṣṇava cult. Says that the ISKCON center, the Māyāpur . . . "ISKCON plans to build in Māyāpur a world center for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will comprise an enormous temple . . ." This news has been very much advertised. When will we begin? As soon as we get the land. The land is coming along? Hmm? The land is coming along? Yes, government . . . They are going ahead with it. Two officials are in great favor: one Mr. Choudhuri, one Mr. Ganguli. It says that the temple will be so big that India has never seen such a huge temple. Choudhuri's wife has challenged that "If you are Hindu, then you will do it." To her husband. Oh. (laughter) It tells about . . . it quotes you as saying that how you began this movement. Two boys joined you, Chuck and Bruce—Brahmānanda and Acyutānanda, Charles Barnett and Bruce Scharf. Charles is called Chuck? Yes. (referring to prasādam ) What is that? (indistinct) . . . it's called rājkachorī . (laughter) Stuffed with dāl , potato, tamarind sauce and sour cream. Ṛṣi's making up for lost time. Where you learned this? In Kailash Shaksharya's. Huh? From Kailash Shaksharya's cook. At least I learned something there. From that cook, Kailash's cook? Yes. *He was very expert. In India, a girl, if she could cook nicely, then she is perfect. There is a ceremony, it is called bahubhat . After marriage the girl comes to her father*-in-law's house and there is a ceremony called bahubhat . In that bahubhat , the girl is to cook and distribute this food to all the relatives of her husband. If they say it is excellent, then she is accepted in this family. What if they say it is not excellent? Nobody says. (laughter) But the ceremony is made. The social system in India is that, "If I do not accept your food, then I do not take you within my inner circle. You remain outside." It's a great offense if you offer someone prasādam and they refuse. Yes. That means I am not accepting you as intimate. And if he accepts, then you cannot deny his friendship. About one hundred years ago in Bengal, in the aristocratic circle, the guests invited and very sumptuously food distributed, and then the gentlemen, guests, they come and see only, they will simply say: "Oh, it is very nicely done." They'll not eat, and go away. Then the foodstuff will be distributed among the servants. This was aristocracy. They'll not eat, they will simply see and appreciate, "Oh, you have so many varieties, very nice." Then they'll go. And the household servants and others, they eat it. Why didn't they eat it? That was the custom. That is a dry philosophy. (laughs) You have seen this article? No. Other news, after Mars? No? I haven't seen the newspapers yet. Might have some more . . . been taking pictures, photographs. Prabhupāda explained that the picture they took of Mars, they now say that there's . . . they pointed out that there's a similar canyon, the Grand Canyon, in Arizona. So they were reporting like this, and Prabhupāda said this is an indication that actually it is a picture of . . . they have unintentionally they have let out the information that actually the photo is simply a photograph of the Grand Canyon. He gave an example. There's a man in his room at night, and he hears a noise. So he says: "Oh, what's that sound?" And then back comes the reply, "I am not stealing." So no one asked the man to say what he was doing, but he unintentionally let it out what he was actually doing there. He just asked what the noise was, but he said: "I am not stealing." So in the same way, no one asked them to say anything about Arizona, but they let it out. They have disclosed unintentionally. That is going on. It is beyond their dream to go either to the moon planet or Mars planet. It is not possible. Not nowadays I say—I said it ten years ago. We're going to have a difficult time, with the scientists, about this moon. Hmm? We're going to have a difficult time about this moon and the sun relationship. Sunday, Monday. This is a lifelong project. (laughter) Nobody could answer, a simple question. (Hari-śauri explains "Sunday, Monday" question in background) According to Vedic astronomical calculations, sun is first. But does it have to do anything with distance, Prabhupāda? Hmm? Does it have to do anything with the distance? As the sun is recorded first? *No, according to them if sun is first, then it will be ninety*-three millions miles. And if the moon is still away, one million six hundred thousand miles, it becomes ninety-five million miles. How they are going ninety-five millions of miles in four days? No, on that ground it is reasonable to know that they couldn't go there, but . . . Therefore I say they couldn't go there. Their asset is Arizona, that's all. All this propaganda has gone, and at last they wanted to satisfy by delivering some sand and rock, that's all. Actually the business was not done. They say even if there's life on another planet, at most it could be bacteria. Nonsense. If bacteria is there, why not others? Well the thing is that if they say that there's other life, then they'd have to show it. But they don't know what's there 'cause they've never been. So they have to show either there's no life and here's some rocks, which they got from this planet, or at most there's only bacteria, which they can also produce here and say it's there. But they can't show any advanced life because they don't know. They have never gone. Simply bluff. That is my point. Whenever they don't know something, they say it doesn't exist. I have got evidence, our Vedic literature. *We have other informations other than Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ? Huh? We have other evidences? We have evidence from astronomy, Jyoti-śāstra. Jyoti-śāstra . Śrīla Prabhupāda, Manasvī is here. Huh? Manasvī. Shall I tell him to come in? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sit down. Wherefrom you are coming? New Jersey, Hoboken. Where is your child? She's downstairs. With whom he is there? With her brother. So? What is that? This is the magazine I was telling you about, Transcendental Meditation Today . That is the name of the magazine? Yes. The feature article is . . . This is our? Big article all about our Society. Oh, my picture also. *"Prabhupāda, ācārya *-founder." Tells all about you and your books. It especially mentions your books. This is a whole page devoted about your books. This is the dome downstairs. "Hare Kṛṣṇa Meditation. Who is Kṛṣṇa?" (laughs) "The Kṛṣṇa Cut." It tells about the haircut, śikhā . (laughter) "Kṛṣṇa cut." (laughs) Then in the back there's more articles about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There's the . . . here, "Food for the gods, prasādam ." Describes what standard we have for making the prasādam , how you can't taste it, you have to be very clean. *Here's that . . . remember I was telling you about that meditation on the ping*-pong balls? Oh. (laughter) "Ganzfeld effect." They give it a name and make it sound very important, and then sell it for a thousand dollars. Who's name? Ganzfeld. They say the Ganzfeld effect. Who is Ganzfeld? Somebody know? There's an article about Maharishi. (aside) You want to read it? There's some points in here, it says: "Profit without honor." This man hates Maharishi, says he's completely bogus. His picture is hateful. It says: "Profit without any honor." He quotes you in here. What is that? It says: "Swami Prabhupāda, spiritual leader of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and Bill Faill, Durban, South Africa, of the Natal Mercury Reporter , had the following dialogue—Bill Faill: Do you think that Transcendental Meditation is helping people? *Prabhupāda: They do not know what real meditation is. Their meditation is simply a farce, another cheating process by the so*-called svāmīs and yogīs . So everyone is talking about meditation, but no one knows what meditation really is. These bluffers use the word meditation, but they do not know the proper subject for meditation. They are simply talking bogus propaganda. Bill Faill: But isn't meditation helpful in getting people to think straight? No. Real meditation means to achieve a state in which the mind is saturated by God consciousness." *Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ ( SB 12.13.1). This is the Vedic version. When one man's mind is fully absorbed in the Supersoul, Viṣṇu, that is called meditation. And Bhagavad-gītā confirms: These are the Vedic version. These rascals—some light, some this, some that. There are some quotes here from people describing Maharishi's meditation. It says: "A Denver housewife said: 'I turned off when I found that TM' " that's what they call Transcendental Meditation, " 'I turned off when I found that TM is trying to sell me meditation the same way Proctor and Gamble sells me soap.' " Gamble? Big soap company. Proctor and Gamble manufacture all kinds of soaps and detergents, so she's saying that the way they sell Transcendental Meditation is the same as the way they sell soap. Very commercialized. They have here proof that his mantra is no different than any ordinary sound. It says: "In a Stanford Research Institute experiment, a group of TM trainees was compared to a control group who had been taught a fake mantra that they believed would be effective. In both groups some subjects were able to bring unpleasant psychosomatic symptoms under control. Three of these dropped out of the TM training group. Their symptoms returned. Two dropped out of the control group, their symptoms came back too. Evidence like that suggests that whatever works in the TM system, it does not depend upon the mystical mantra ." Let their men come and talk with our men in a public meeting. Then people will understand what is the difference. They have a catalog, Transcendental Meditation University. It's very well done, nice colors and anything, first class. They spend a lot of money and a lot of thoughts how to bring . . . how to attract the students. He says their University's just closed down. Oh, the one at Iowa? No, the one in Majorca, in Spain. This is the headquarters, Iowa, the main University. We saw the catalog. It contains everything, all sciences. This article explains that when he first appeared in public, he presented himself as a Hindu representative of Śaṅkarācārya's cult, but then later on he concocted this Transcendental Meditation, and then he presented it as a science so that he could get government grants to teach it in schools and things like this. They have another guru here, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. He has also come? Yes. His group is big here. He's very popular in America. Eighteen thousand disciples. He says: "It does not matter to whom one surrenders. The relevance is in the act of surrendering. But because the human mind sees things in terms of relationships, surrender to a guru is often useful. The guru is a step toward the impersonal divine, a step toward surrender to the existence." He makes a comment about sannyāsa as well, I think. He initiates sannyāsa , they call themselves neo- sannyāsa . "At initiation a sannyāsī receives a new name, an ochre robe and a mālā , a string of beads holding a locket that frames a photograph of Bhagwan." Bhagwan Rajneesh, not Bhagavān. The one who says it's not necessary to have a spiritual master. He says: "The picture is not mine. Had it been mine I would have hesitated to put it there. The picture only appears as mine." That's word jugglery. (laughter) The picture is of himself, he says: "It is not me. If it was me I would not have put it there. It only appears to be me." They want something very cheap and easy to attain. Here's his method. First they engage in breathing. It says: "The really successful meditator sounds like an exhausted sea lion." He says: "If you feel like dancing, dance, laugh, scream, sing, express your love, your hate, your anger, your jealousy. Do not condemn what happens; do not condone it. Just go mad. Express whatever is within you totally, intensely." And here's his mantra , " Hoo hoo hoo. " That's his mantra . They were doing this in Bhopal. In Bhopal, we were there when we had our Jeeps. So in the same place we were staying they let this group Rajneesh do it. So they were going with that mantra , " Hoo hoo ." So we were standing out from the balcony shouting, "Kṛṣṇa, that's who." Every morning they would do that meditation, and we would answer "Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) They call his method "chaotic meditation." They say? That's the heading, it says "Chaotic Meditation." That's the name of it. After they go " Hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo . . ." What about . . . what they have written about us? About us? A big article. Everything is favorable. They didn't say one bad thing about us. It says: "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. The group above are performing a kīrtana , the chanting of the names of Kṛṣṇa, the Vedic Deity they believe to be the supreme personification of Godhead. They are shown before the doorway of 1 Astor Plaza in Manhattan's Times Square area. Their chant, increasingly familiar on street corners in all large cities across the country, runs, 'Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.' These Kṛṣṇa devotees belong to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, less formally known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement and still less formally to the man in the street as the Harry Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Actually, Prabhupāda, one . . . Harry Kṛṣṇa. They think that we're worshiping a person, some material man, by the name of Harry Kṛṣṇa. They think that your name is Harry Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) In Boston they once wrote an article in the newspaper, the Boston Globe , they said: "I walked into the temple room and there he was, a big picture of Harry Kṛṣṇa sitting on a big throne." (laughter) On the vyāsāsana . Harry is an English . . . Harry, Harrison, like that. They are saying Kṛṣṇa's name. *Should I read more? "There are several hundred thousand members of the movement . . . several hundred thousand members of the movement throughout the world. Ten thousand in New York City alone." Actually, there are at least ten thousand followers. "Of these, about a hundred and fifty are full*-time students and live at 340 West Fifty-fifth Street, an eleven-story former Josephine Baird Home of the Roman Catholic Carmelite Nuns." This was a nunnery, Carmelite nuns. "The Hare Kṛṣṇa center on West Fifty-fifth Street draws about five hundred lay devotees and curiosity-seekers from the metropolitan area every Sunday. Open house begins at five p.m. A great drawing card is the serving of prasādam , food specially prepared for and offered to Lord Kṛṣṇa before being distributed to the public. The eating of prasādam (see the article 'Food of the Gods' on a later page), is believed by members of the movement to convey important spiritual benefits—for example, the cleansing of karma due to past sins. Movement members are not unaware of the more immediate and mundane effect. Prasādam is our secret weapon,' said Alaṅkāra dāsa, spokesman for the center. 'It gets them in here, and then they can get the message.' Les Tursley, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, India-based senior member of the movement, has said of prasādam in his country . . ." They think you're an Indian. They think I'm an Indian. " 'If anyone comes around to our prasādam distribution program, that means he is hungry. If he is hungry, that means he cannot listen to our philosophy. If his hunger is not satisfied, he'll never become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the point. If we just went around with a program of speaking and kīrtana , they would come once or twice but they wouldn't see its practical value. But if you give them prasādam daily with kīrtana and speaking, eventually you can convince them, "Look, this is our most practical way of life. Why don't you come and live with us completely and work with us?" That's a quote from an article in Back to Godhead . "Though food is far more plentiful in the United States than in India, prasādam appeal seems to work its magic here just as well. The entire movement began only ten years ago in a storefront temple in Manhattan's Lower East Side. Today it owns the largest publishing house of Hindu classics, many in demand for leading university courses. The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust in Los Angeles, the world's largest, last year's gross of one million dollars; *incense*-producing Spiritual Sky Scented Products Company; *and Kṛṣṇa Fashions Incorporated, a wholesale clothing manufacturer. An important portion of the movement's income comes from the contributions of lay devotees, who are successful businessmen. More comes from street*-corner solicitation of alms by devotees during kīrtana . How significant the last is was shown recently by the closing down of elevator service in the New York center. 'A lot of us are going on pilgrimage to India,' said Alaṅkāra dāsa. 'There won't be many around to beg. These elevators cost us $2,200 a month to run. So we're cutting down except for essential services.' " We don't do that anymore. That was the previous mismanagement. Someone had the idea that if you turn off the elevator, that's very good. But I told him if you're not going to run the elevator, then why did you move here? They had people walking up eleven stories, and it was crazy, just to save . . . anyway, "These include moving foodstuffs and milk into the building. Much of the food comes from a 350-acre ISKCON-owned dairy farm in Academia, Pennsylvania, one of the six similar facilities in this country and Canada." They show pictures of devotees in the temple, devotees taking prasādam and two lady devotees. "The yoga ," it says under the captions, "monks take breakfast by hand in rows on the dining area floor." Here it says, "Saried women devotees dwell in cloister atmosphere of the center." Then "The yoga of devotion: Tilaka of clay paste marks the devotee as a member of ISKCON sect. Central shrine in the temple is the focal point of twice a day services." A picture of Rādhā-Govinda. " 'Our life is our meditation' said a śikhā -ed, saffron-clad monk in the Hare Kṛṣṇa center. 'Everything we do is offered to Śrī Kṛṣṇa, but in addition to that there is the personal chanting, most . . .' " (break) ". . . slung from the devotee's neck. He often counts the beads without taking his hand from the pouch. In the early hours the Hare Kṛṣṇa center buzzes with a droning sound, difficult to identify by the stranger who does not know that it comes from the monks, who are beginning their required sixteen rounds." They have given everything very detailed. "The personal chanting sometimes occurs in unusual situations—while escorting a visitor to the center, while waiting to complete a phone call, or even during pauses in a conversation." (laughter) Devotees are always chanting. " 'The mahāmantra is the only mantra needed' the devotee says. Besides the sixteen rounds, devotees are expected to observe four rules. They must abstain from meat-eating, intoxication, gambling and illicit sex. Illicit sex is defined as any sexual act other than that intended for procreation. Sex outside of marriage is forbidden. Married, full-time devotees may have sexual relationship once a month at a time propitious for procreation. All the devotee's activities are regarded as bhakti-yoga , the yoga of devotion. He regards everything he does as service to God. The name he is given at initiation is followed by the word dāsa , 'a servant.' Full-time ISKCON devotees adopt Vedic dress, one objective being to keep others aware of Kṛṣṇa. Women wear sārīs , the men dhotīs; *both may wear shawls. The men shave their heads except for a single lock of hair at the back. (See the article 'The Kṛṣṇa Cut.') The lock, called a śikhā , identifies the followers of Kṛṣṇa." Actually, no one can imitate us because no one wants to give up their hair, so no one will try to make believe they are devotees. "Shaving the head announces renunciation of material pleasures. The tilaka is a mark made with clay—two narrow vertical stripes on the forehead meeting in a triangular swatch on the bridge of the nose. It identifies the body as a temple to be used only in the service of God. Full*-time students follow a rigorously monastic life. They arise at four a.m. in the morning, begin four hours of prayer and chanting. At nine o'clock they have breakfast, seated cross-legged on mats on the floor. The men eat apart from the women. During the day devotees work at various preaching programs or at regular jobs. At seven p.m. devotional services are held in the center's temple. In Manhattan this features an ornate shrine including representations of Kṛṣṇa and His consort, Rādhe. Both are costumed sumptuously with elaborate care; *both wear festoons of flowers. Visitors are cautioned, 'When you go in the temple remember that these statues you see are not representations of the Deities, they are the Deities. Kṛṣṇa is in everything. Kṛṣṇa is everywhere.' Temple kīrtana ." There's a picture. "Eleven*-story New York sect's center is former Carmelite Baird home." Picture of the temple. "Services in the temple are attended by about five hundred every Sunday. Many of these are from New York's Hindu population. Frequently husbands bring their pregnant wives, dedicating their unborn child to Kṛṣṇa. The kīrtana begins with the chanting of the mahā-mantra , slowly at first and melodiously. Later the chant will speed up as the spirit of the devotion spreads. Often the most rapid and intense chanting is done by a hard-core knot of dhotī -ed men before the curtains of the shrine." The devotees get in one group and start . . . (laughter) Hard-core devotees. "The rhythm approaches that of an express train, and the atmosphere is apt to remind a lay visitor of an old-fashioned football rally. Some of the onlookers try to keep up with the central group, clapping their hands, swaying their bodies, throwing arms upwards and, among the younger, adapting modern dance steps to the rhythm. When the shrine curtains are drawn back, devotees kneel and press their foreheads . . ." Who has introduced this peculiar dancing? It just evolved. (laughs) We were speaking about that the other day. It's changed from the original dancing that you showed us to something else. Too much like the modern dancing. Hmm. I think this is not good. Shall I read on, Prabhupāda? "The service has become . . ." What way should we dance, Śrīla Prabhupāda? With our hands outstretched? Sometimes the devotees like to jump around. Is that all right? In ecstasy one can do anything, that is another . . . but artificially to do something is not good. But if one feels like jumping, it is all right? Anything artificial is not required. So running back and forth is not . . . No, no, that should not be an artificial. We don't dance for show; we dance for the pleasure of the Deities. No, we're not professional dancers. "The service has become so frenetic that the almost folksy, matter of fact preaching of the Swami makes a stark contrast. 'Some people are against us because they say we teach children to smile. Well isn't that too bad. We make children smile—we are bad. We try to teach them that life should be a joyful thing—we're evil. Well that's too bad, isn't it? ' " Who's that? That's crazy. This is theory. (laughter) So he has not returned with the key? Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Hmm. Still more? *Yes. "After the sermon, more chanting. Now it really becomes frantic, and even compelling. Many curious first*-time visitors begin to take up the mahā-mantra chant. The hard-core group at the shrine seems to be completely carried away. The terrazo floor literally vibrates. Gradually the crowd begins to thin. Other things are happening in the center. On the third floor there is a traditional Vedic play in costume, acted with enthusiasm." (sound of kīrtana ) It's going downstairs somewhere, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They're getting everybody together to go out on saṅkīrtana party. It says here, "On the second floor there is a store which attracts many visitors who want to buy Indian costumes, jewelry and the movement's books. Prasādam is served in the basement restaurant. Visitors eat at tables in the same area where monks had breakfast on the floor. The prasādam features Hindu dishes served in the compartments of plasticized paper mess trays." Then it goes on. Now there's another article about you. (aside) Why are they holding a kīrtana now? *They're getting a kīrtana party together to go out on hari*-nāma down at Times Square. (indistinct conversation among devotees) Hmm. What does he say? *"Prabhupāda, ācārya -founder, born Abhay Charan De in India in 1895, the founder . . . future founder- ācārya , spiritual leader of ISKCON, came under the spiritual direction of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja, ascetic scholar and preacher who had devoted his life to the spread of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Three years later, shortly before he died, Bhaktisiddhānta ordered Abhay to spread the Kṛṣṇa faith in the English language. One of the ways that Abhay, now known as Prabhupāda—'one at whose feet masters sit'—did that was to begin to translate the classic Vedic literature, but it was not until thirty years after he was charged by his spiritual mentor that he was able to make a trip to the United States. He arrived in Boston in September 1965, a spry but grim-faced passenger of seventy years on the steamer Jaladuta . He had forty rupees in his pocket and a metal suitcase full of his books and translations. Finding his way to New York City, he set up a storefront temple at 26 Second Avenue in the East Village section. Gradually he drew a small coterie of students around him, mostly through his preaching in Tompkinson Park. As his movement grew, he found backers among his converts. Hare Kṛṣṇa centers were established in Boston, Buffalo and San Francisco, and an appreciation of Prabhupāda's Vedic translations by American university authorities, Columbia, Princeton, Yale professors among others, permitted the establishment of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust in Los Angeles. The Trust launched a promotion of Prabhupāda's translations and original works under the logo of the Living Library of Transcendental Knowledge. Remarkably, in the face of a worldwide economic recession, the Trust's book and magazine sales reached nine million in 1975, up 34.5 percent over 1974. Some of this was due to the determined promotion of groups such as the hundred-man Rādhā-Dāmodara group, which criss-crosses the country in six Greyhound-type buses and ten vans giving lectures and kīrtanas at college university campuses. Now eighty*-one years old, Prabhupāda still works at his writings and the spiritual direction of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. His translation of Bhagavad-gītā , the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is , the most widely used in the Western world, is in great demand by professors of Indology and Vedic literature." He has given advertisement for our books. Oh, yes. Very favorable. The amazing thing is that he's an impersonalist. Impersonalist? The man who wrote all of these articles, he's an impersonalist. Here's a picture of him. Oh, he's American? Oh, yes. He thinks there are different types of meditation that all work, and ours is one type, bona fide, that works. There are also other types. *The article goes on—I don't know if you want to hear it all. You want to hear it? Okay. Here's this thing called "Who is Kṛṣṇa?" "Kṛṣṇa, viewed by ISKCON as the supreme personification of Godhead, is said to have many pastimes in which He assumes different appearances. One such is that of Gopālajī, the cowherd boy (see picture, 'Cowherd Boy') He can appear in other forms such as four*-armed Nārāyaṇa. Most often Kṛṣṇa is portrayed as having light blue skin and, by Western standards, a soft and effeminate physique. He is said to be full in the six opulences: beauty, strength, fame, wealth, knowledge and renunciation. He is said to be all-attractive. Kṛṣṇa incarnates on one planet after another in infinite universes. The last time He appeared on earth as Kṛṣṇa was five thousand years ago. He will not return in that form for another four hundred thousand years. But five hundred years ago He appeared in His incarnation of Lord Caitanya, who taught people of the mahā-mantra and started the Kṛṣṇa consciousness in its present state. According to the Bhagavad-gītā , Kṛṣṇa hungers for the devotion of His followers." Very nicely put. "This devotion in its pure sense takes the form of bhakti-yoga , the dedication of one's every action to Kṛṣṇa. Thus to use one's sense for one's own pleasure is to deny Kṛṣṇa devotion and accumulate negative karma . Kṛṣṇa has a consort, Rādhe, but She is considered only as an extension of His own pleasure principle, since He is all things. It is through Her intercession that devotees seek favors from Kṛṣṇa. According to ISKCON, Kṛṣṇa is the same God worshiped as Jehovah, Allah and so on." That is the explanation of who Kṛṣṇa is. He could write for Back to Godhead . Huh? He could write for Back to Godhead . Yes, it is good. *Very good. Then there is a part called "Hare Kṛṣṇa Meditation." "The Hare Kṛṣṇas practice bhakti , the yoga of devotion. They have their mahā*-mantra , continual recitation of which will have a meditative effect. By integrating recitation of the mantra with a life of rigidly formulated devotional activities, it would seem that devotees actually live their meditation. Such a life of living meditation is not without parallel in secular fields. It is believed that the spiritual form of alchemy served this purpose; that is, an alchemist repeated the same experimental routine over and over until it became automatized, though still requiring some slight personal involvement." He's getting a little far out here. "It was expected that the result . . ." This is material. Anyway, ". . . practitioners of Western magical disciplines sought for similar results. Meditation takes effect in terms of the ambiance in which it is practiced. In the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement there are certain to be transcendental experiences. They would be in accord with Vedic teachings, but their exact nature has not proven easy of discovery, since devotees insist that their sole aim in life is to be of service to Kṛṣṇa." We're not interested in experiencing all of these special things. Yes. That is very nice. Very nice point. Then there's a part about the Kṛṣṇa cut. Says here, "Badge. The badge of the monks is a single lock that hangs from a rear of shaven head. As a precisely trimmed śikhā is a matter of pride, monks often cooperate in shaving one another. Hair is buzzed off by clipper (left side), leaving a bristly surface (center)"—shows the bristly surface. He has taken photograph of it? (laughter) Yes. ". . . which is lathered up and shaved with a safety razor (right side). Even more striking than their saffron dhotīs and shawls is the ISKCON men's practice of shaving their heads with the exception of one long lock in the rear, known as the śikhā . The first reaction of the layman is "Why do they do it?" The next is "How do they do it?" The Hare Kṛṣṇas themselves advance three different answers to the first question. Some say that in countries that have hot climates, the religious have always shaved their heads to ensure cleanliness. A clean body reflects a pure spirit." One letter should be written to him that, "You have taken so much trouble to describe Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, so thank you for your patience. Now we shall request you to read our books and review it. That will be real presentation of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Now you have studied superficially, and if you seriously study our books, you'll get more knowledge and you'll be able to give description of the movement more definitely." You want to hear about what else he has to say? *Um*-hmm. *"Others insist that the style of shaving the head identifies devotees of various spiritual orders. The long śikhās marks a man as a follower of Kṛṣṇa. Still another group says that the head*-shaving simply stands for renunciation of the material world, its values and its pleasures. One or more of those reasons may be the true one. Possibly all of them have a multi-determined . . . have multi-determined the Kṛṣṇa cut. The 'how' of the cut is simplicity itself. Commonly two men cut each others' hair. Our pictures show how. Phase one of the cutting, known as the buzz-off, is done with ordinary . . ." (laughter) Buzz off? (laughter) *Yes. ". . . is done with ordinary hair clipper. The post buzz*-off effect . . ." (laughter) This guy's made a science out of it. (laughter) ". . . shown in the second picture. Next, the prickly sconce." What is that meaning? *Prickly sconce. Prickly means short*-haired, and sconce means . . .? Look it up in the dictionary. (laughter) People like to think they are scientific like this. *It says: "The prickly sconce is lathered up with an old*-fashioned mug and brush and shaved with a safety razor. It is considered of paramount importance that the base of the śikhā be shaved round evenly. The shavee sometimes shows some nervousness about this." He gets nervous that they'll cut his śikhā off. This man has caught every detail. Good writer. Yes, he's a good one. It says "Sconce: crown of head." It's an old term for the crown of the head. There's a special article about prasādam , Prabhupāda, called "Food for the Gods." "Of all the ways of getting to heaven, or nirvāṇa , or whatever your ideal place may be, the Hare Kṛṣṇa way is one of the most pleasant. Believers of this faith are convinced that you can eat your way into higher spiritual realms. Of course, this doesn't mean that food itself is sacred and the more you eat the holier you are. To begin with, there is a strict prohibition against the killing of animals, so meat, fish and eggs are not included in the diet at all of the Kṛṣṇa devotees. Furthermore, there are many special rules for preparing the food which may be offered to Kṛṣṇa to be blessed by Him and therefore to bring blessings to anyone who partakes of it." Should I read this whole article? *Um*-hmm. "The recipes given below, taken from the Hare Kṛṣṇa Cookbook"—another good advertisement, and they give you at least three or four recipes in here. They give recipes for, the recipes are for . . . Anyway, he has given more pages for our movement. *Oh, yes, he's given us three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve pages. And the whole magazine, including many advertisements . . . actually the nonadvertised part is about fifty*-five pages, of which we have twelve. At least one fifth of the book is for Hare Kṛṣṇa. The other groups only have three pages, four pages. And he blasts them mostly. Some of them are really nonsense. Here's one called the Deichmann Experiment. You stare at a vase . . . Another meditation. Yes, this is another one, Deichmann Experiment. Then they have one about Zen Buddhism, it shows Zen meditation. Here's a Zen master sitting in front of a basketball. I don't know why. They have a meditation they call Zen basketball. Oh. We went to one seminar once when they were teaching Zen basketball. *Here's another one, "Hypnotism or Meditation?" "A hypnotist discusses a question that many face." Because they accuse that we're hypnotizing, so they're trying to distinguish in this article what is hypnotism, what is meditation. Then here's another one, "The Art of Awareness." This woman is supposed to be a great transcendental artist. You can see some of her famous pictures. Here's a picture called "Congregations of Souls." And here's another picture called "Temple Stones." Then this is the Ganzfeld Effect. (laughter) Ping*-pong balls. Says here, "The apparently pop-eyed lady is not a visitor from another dimension nor the victim of a sudden surprise. She is the subject of an experiment into the nature of meditation and some of the effects of the processes. The ping-pong ball halves present a completely continuous visual field. There's no object in it that can hold her attention. After staring at the insides of the ping-pong balls for a while, she will begin to feel peaceful and . . ." Actually she does? *Oh, yes, that's the meditation. They put the ping*-pong ball, and then it describes, "She will feel peaceful and serene. At the same time she may not be able to tell whether her eyes are open or closed. She will see neither white nor black nor any shade in between. She will have the experience of not seeing. At that point, which the subject in this kind . . ." With the eyes closed, then not seeing is there already. (laughter) What is the use of meditating? *You aren't going to see very much with two ping*-pong balls over your eyes, are you? (laughter) *"The white hemispheres covering her eyes are halves of ping*-pong balls. The wires lead off to an electroencephalograph, E.E.G. It keeps a record of changes in her brainwave output. At that point when she is not seeing, which subjects in this kind of experiment call 'blanking out,' the electroencephalograph will record a brainwave output well into the alpha range." They also tell you how to make the Ganzfeld, how to cut the . . . it shows a ping-pong ball and a knife. (laughter) This guy is weird. This thing about alpha range, this is becoming a big thing. They think that if a person gets into this alpha range of brain stimulation, then his meditation is successful. They're trying to figure it all out scientifically. They're trying to use all kinds of machines and wires to measure consciousness. They have one group that has tin cans attached to wires, and they hold them in their hand, and then they measure it on the machine as they meditate. And when they meditate right, the needle on the machine goes right in the middle, and they think they have achieved perfection. Here is an article called "Travels Beyond the Body: What is it that travels, and what is it that's seen?" They're talking about traveling beyond your body. Here's an advertisement, "Because I have taken the mystery out of transcendental meditation, I will teach you to master transcendental meditation in a single evening." "About the author." Then it says: "Free private mantra based on your own name, selected by the great Norbell, translated by his special Sanskrit system, so that no one else in America has the same mantra twice. No other system of transcendental meditation . . ." What is this? Maharishi? Maharishi Yogi? No, this is competition. No, this isn't . . . This is the competition. *This man says: "Norbell, for over thirty years his unrelenting thirst for spiritual fulfillment has taken him to the most remote corners of the globe to finally become one of the few Westerners in our time who has ever gained acceptance as an equal among the holy masters of both India and Tibet. He has also mastered the scientific secrets of Western knowledge in America's most highly regarded universities. In America alone over the past decades, tens of thousands have come to Carnegie Hall in New York and dozens of other centers of public hearing all to hear him." He says: "Meditation can make this claim alone, and it's yours to keep. Your own mantra free, even if you return the report itself. Mail this coupon at no risk today. 'Gentlemen, please rush me a copy of Norbell's five minute de*-mystified transcendental meditation.' " (laughter) De-mystified, taking the mystery out. "Confidential report. 'I enclose nine dollars and ninety-eight cents in full payment. I understand that I may examine this confidential report for thirty days at your risk or money back. Also send me my own private mantra , specially selected for me by Master Norbell and mine absolutely free, even if I return the report, with every cent of my money back.' " It says here—these are the benefits of the mantra —one of the benefits is, it says here, one of the benefits, "and as an extra benefit of such heightened personal magnetism, a simple shift in the focus of your daily meditations can give you great new sexual and romantic powers, new joys in love." They're all cheaters. It's just another con. *Here's another group called Arika. This Arika costs three thousand dollars, this process. They charge three thousand dollars for a ninety*-day course. Part of their whole meditation is they have cocktail parties. They drink liquor and they meet and they have these therapy, and they charge him money to go to a cocktail party and call it yoga . Anyway, it's got a good article about us. You want to keep it to show guests who come, the article? No. (laughter) Anyone who reads that magazine will immediately become attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there's no comparison. It's got the best article I've ever seen, though, about us, in great detail. It really reports the details. Hmm. This is also good article. (break) Hmm! Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa, where is the key? Key? Distribute this prasādam . . . (indistinct) You can see how he's cooking very . . . he's the most expert I've ever seen, and he knows these special preparations. He can cook many varieties of kachorī . (end) Conversation -- July 11, 1976, New York (Evening Darsana) "I take away as death." Whatever they are accumulating, everything will be taken away at the time of death . . . (indistinct) . . . they are simply collecting, accumulating, discovering—forgetting that everything will be taken away at the time of death. Discover something which can check death, there will be no more death. That is real discovery. What do you think? Well, it's a question to think about. Because whatever we are discovering, it will be taken away by death. So discover something which will stop death. And that is real discovery. But don't you think it will be a bad thing, because there are some bad people in the world like, let's say, Hitler and Stalin and others, they may be the first people to use the technology to prolong their life? The thing is, bad or good, everyone will be taken away by death. Is it not a fact? Hitler is no longer existing, neither Stalin nor Gandhi. Gandhi was supposed to be very good man. He's also taken by death, and Hitler is also taken by death. And Stalin also taken. And I'll also, you will be also. So death will take away everyone. There is no doubt about it. Therefore discover something which will stop death. That is real discovery. *Śrīla Prabhupāda? Which is the most important chapter of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Every word is important. Every word. Jaya . *Every word. Beginning from dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ ( BG 1.1), every word. Every one. Every word. Every word. *And that will give you guidance. Read Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, word for word. But don't misinterpret and spoil. The rascals misinterpret and spoil the whole Bhagavad-gītā . That is the difficulty. You cannot misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā . Then it will be spoiled. If you take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, you are benefited. And if you misinterpret, then you spoil. So generally they misinterpret. Everyone speaks on Bhagavad-gītā , but he misinterprets. You've made it very clear, Prabhupāda. I want to thank you for that. I like your purports as much as Kṛṣṇa's actual words, because now I can understand it. *Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . Otherwise, for the last so many years—I am speaking in Western countries—so many svāmīs , so many yogīs come, they speak on Bhagavad-gītā but misinterpret. So not a single devotee was there. And now Bhagavad-gītā is presented as it is, and so many devotees are coming. Now we can understand it. *You could understand long ago, but difficulty is we accept this misinterpretation, spoiled understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . Just like this gentleman was speaking he did not like Kṛṣṇa, he told me. He told me just now. He did not like Kṛṣṇa. *They'll read Bhagavad*-gītā , and they'll not like Kṛṣṇa. This is their reading of Bhagavad-gītā . They don't want to read it yet. *Aiyee, idhar aiyee. (Come, come here.) Now all Indians, they should take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and make their life fruitful. The Europeans and Americans, they are taking. Why Indians are not taking? *Is it because the Indians think that they know much about Bhagavad*-gītā ? Being born a Hindu, they might think they know the religion, but not very much. They are not Kṛṣṇa conscious at all. Just see. He knows everything, he does not know Kṛṣṇa? How he knows everything if he does not know Kṛṣṇa? If you think that you know everything, then you must know Kṛṣṇa. But if you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then what do you know? Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply know Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything. And if you know everything and you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then you are rascal, that's all. Mūḍha . That is the test. If you know everything but do not know Kṛṣṇa, then you are a rascal. And if you know Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything automatically. I think they think they know it, but I'm sure they are not aware of it. If they know Kṛṣṇa, why they do not come to the Kṛṣṇa's temple? Quite a number of them come here. I remember the days when I used to be the only Indian in the temple, seven, eight years ago. Even though they are not coming, they should now come, and we can open many other temples if you come. We can maintain many other temples. You come and take advantage of it. Why you are losing your own culture? That is foolishness. You are Indians, and you do not know Kṛṣṇa. That is not a very good credit. Remember when we were building our altar? Remember last year when I talked to you? We were building altar, and virtually I went to every Indian, and myself and the president of that temple, we begged everything we can do possible. And we wanted to collect almost ten thousand dollars. We couldn't even collect five thousand dollars, and most of them were making between fifteen and twenty thousand dollars. Some of them in fact gave us pennies. Just see. *And they took us one Bhagavad*-gītā . We gave them Bhagavad-gītā and they gave us some pennies. Not a very good trade. (laughter) This is not good report. Praghoṣa, he gets at least ten dollars in lakṣmī . It's difficult to collect money from the Indians. That is my experience, and I . . . Because they are thinking of rupees, not dollars. (laughter) That means they do not like Kṛṣṇa. I don't know. Somehow or other, I myself am totally confused about Indian community in this country. I have no comments to make, but I found out that they are the least charitable community among all communities. I lived in Canada almost ten years, and I found out other communities are very charitable. Even if you go to other community, at least they will give something, but Indians, no. Aiye na. Please come. Every Indian should come to the temple and become a devotee. I think more and more people are really coming to the temple and becoming part of it, as I think most of the devotees around here know, in the last few years. Everybody I know of . . . "More and more coming" means not all are coming. (laughter) All of them would be the most desirable thing. What is the objection? There are so many other temples. Hindu temple, Sindhu temple . . . there's organization of community of Indians, they are trying to develop their own. *There is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity? Yes. There is *Gītā* temple, there's a Sindhi temple. Without Kṛṣṇa? *Gītā* without Kṛṣṇa? It is a temple, everybody facing their back towards Kṛṣṇa and chanting about what was happening in the town. They have Kṛṣṇa mūrti , but when he went there everyone had their back to the mūrti . And they were chanting . . . not chanting, talking about what was going on in the town. Social. For social reasons. That means they do not know Kṛṣṇa. But here you can only talk about Kṛṣṇa, so they don't want to come. If you want to talk to them about Kṛṣṇa you'll lose a friend. Right away. So either make friends with Kṛṣṇa, or make friends with that guy. That is not very good. That means they have fallen from their culture. They have lost their culture. Some of them in fact enjoy eating hot dogs and hamburgers. They said: "Oh, I have been eating vegetables for ages. Now I have come here to eat hot dogs and hamburgers." That is their comment. They have done totally . . . What is this hot dog? It's meat, sausage. Together with other poisons. Made from cows. (break) (referring to guests leaving) Some prasādam? Oh, they have taken prasādam . Want something to eat? Feast prasādam . Someone is making them some little prasāda ? There is some prasādam to distribute. *Khoob khaiye aur aap log ko to chahiye Kṛṣṇa prasadam sikhana, ye bechare to jante hi nahin, Krishna ko chod diya to kaun sikhayega. Kyon aplog Kṛṣṇa ko chod diya. (Have lots of prasadam and you must learn how to prepare Kṛṣṇa prasadam , these people don't know — they have forgotten Kṛṣṇa so who will teach them. Why did you people leave Kṛṣṇa?) And they talk of Bhagavad*-gītā and keeping Kṛṣṇa background? Somebody says? *Yes. Mostly they don't even talk of Bhagavad*-gītā , they talk about social, but Kṛṣṇa they keep to your back. They have named the place Gītā Mandira, Gītā Temple. But they do not discuss Gītā . Just for show. *That is the disease. Even Mahatma Gandhi, he was talking of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad*-gītā , but throughout his whole life he never established a temple of Kṛṣṇa, although his photograph you'll find with Bhagavad-gītā . This is the calamity. *In the last days Mahatma Gandhi kept saying rāma rāma, rāma*-nāma is the only way chanting . . . one of his article he says: "There is no other cure but to chant the name of the Lord." *Mahatma Gandhi would have preached Bhagavad*-gītā , the world would have taken very seriously, because he was respectable. *You wrote him to preach Bhagavad*-gītā . *Yes. Jo kuch ho gaya ho gaya ab to aap sab pardesh me hain khoob Bhagavat*-Gita ka prachar kijiye aur samajhiye sab kuch hai. (Whatever has happened is past now. You all are in a foreign land. Do extensive preaching and publicity of Bhagavad-gītā and understand everything is there.) The four things Kṛṣṇa wants, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). He charges four thing: to think of Kṛṣṇa, to become His devotee, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, mad-yājī . . . find out this verse. Here is Bhagavad-gītā . Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru . "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." *Charges four things, He wants: to always think of Him, become His devotee, worship Him, mad*-yājī , and offer obeisances unto Him. Therefore this temple is there. These four things can be done even by the child. So why don't you do it? And the guarantee is that if anyone does like that, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Every one of you should come to the temple, always think of the Deity, and if possible chant His holy name and offer Him some worship and obeisances. That will make you perfect. New York is such a big city, there are so many Indians, they should come. Where is the difficulty, to become a thinker of Kṛṣṇa, always thinking, man-manā ? The Deity is there. As soon as you come, you get some impression of the Deity. So if you think of the Deity, where is the difficulty? Koi difficulty hai. (Is there any difficulty?) Can anyone say that there is difficulty in thinking of Kṛṣṇa? And as soon as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become a devotee—immediately. And as soon as you become a devotee, you'll offer something for worship. And at the end of worship, you offer your obeisances. There is no need of education or Vedānta knowledge. Vedānta knowledge means this: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. Anyone can do. And practically see, these foreigners, ten years, five years ago they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and because they are following this man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ , they are now advanced devotees. So why Indians are lacking? Hmm? What is the objection? Simply our hearts are caked with dust. Therefore we shall keep it dusty. If our heart is full of dust, cleanse it. That is intelligence. What is this, "My heart is dirty. Let it be kept as dirty"? No, if it is dirty, cleanse it. It is the duty of every Indian to understand Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to others. That is real Indian business. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that every one of you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to others who are unaware of Kṛṣṇa. That is the injunction; *that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said, bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41): "Anyone who has taken birth in India as a human being"—not as dogs; *manuṣya, manuṣya means human—"his duty is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach to the other people for welfare activities." Bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra . We should mark this point, manuṣya-janma . He's not requesting the cats and dogs. So in other words, that those who are not taking, Indians . . . Bhagavad-gītā is known to everyone; *every Indian knows. But if he does not preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he is not to be counted as human being. Because He says, manuṣya*-janma haila yāra . If we claim to be human being, born in India, it is our duty to understand the value of life from Bhagavad-gītā and preach this cult to others to do real welfare activities. This is the duty of every Indian. Why Indians are lacking in their duty? They do not understand Kṛṣṇa and they do not understand how to do good to others. Now whatever is done is done. It is time, now that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is here, the temple is here, you come, you understand the whole philosophy and distribute. That is your duty. In New York City we can open many temples, provided you come. Śrīla Prabhupāda, how does it feel to be back in New York again? Hmm? How does it feel to be back in New York? Yes, I feel very much pleased, because I came here alone, without any shelter. I was loitering on the street. Ten years ago, wasn't it? Yes, 1965. Then in 1966 I established this institution in a storefront on the Second Avenue. That is the beginning. I never thought we shall be able to possess such a big building. You've done so much in that short time. I have not done, Kṛṣṇa has done. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has helped you to do it. *That I was speaking, that if we become sincere to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa can give us all opportunities. He's all*-powerful; *He can do that. (aside) Those who are going, give them. Those who are going, you can give one. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. Do you read all these verses, those who are reading Bhagavad*-gītā ? Just in progress. This verse is very important. *Every one of you is reading our Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is ? Yes. Is there any question about? *Is there any question about Bhagavad*-gītā ? *No, as you are reading Bhagavad*-gītā , is there any doubt, question? Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to know if anyone has questions. *There is nothing doubtful, everything is very plain. But we, by our rascaldom, we make it doubt, by our rascal interpretation. Everyone can understand. Just like dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). The Kurukṣetra is dharma-kṣetra . Still Kurukṣetra is there in India, and it is dharma-kṣetre . People go there for performing religious ritualistic ceremonies. So where is the difficulty to understand? And five thousand years ago the Kurus and Pāṇḍavas, they assembled there for fighting—that is clearly stated, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Who were they? Māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva: "My sons and the sons of Pāṇḍu," Kuru-Pāṇḍava. So where is the difficulty to understand? But by misinterpretation they'll write volumes of books and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. This business should be stopped. Then we will be benefited. Everyone is misinterpreting. Is it not a fact they are misinterpreting? What do you think? So many intelligent people, they are going to Transcendental Meditation simply because it's costing money. They want to pay. My sister, her husband, they are intelligent people, but they are simply being misled . . . *So intelligent that they cannot understand Bhagavad*-gītā . What kind of intelligence is that, the plain thing in the Bhagavad-gītā , they cannot understand? Very bad intelligence. *Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). *Yes. So*-called intelligent, they are not intelligent. They have lost their sense by the influence of māyā . Even big, big men, they say that Kṛṣṇa, this Kṛṣṇa is not God. "The God Kṛṣṇa is different" and so on, so on. Hmm? Do they not say like that? *: I wanted to ask you a question. While talking to some of the European people, when we say that Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that asked him to fight, kill his own relatives and friends and not to bother about the consequences of the action. Now this statement sometimes is difficult for people of the West to understand, where they say before you do any action you should know the consequences and then only take action . . . *That is the only statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? There is no other statement? : There is, but . . . So you have captured that only. : Not I . . . You're talking of that. : I'm talking discussion. In a discussion it's difficult to convince people of the West what is the answer to that. *But if you know Kṛṣṇa, that He is God, then whatever He speaks, it is all right. Just like Arjuna, he accepted Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). So he said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). Find out this verse. So "Whatever You say, I accept it as truth." That is understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . If you have understood Bhagavad-gītā , then you should have understood that whatever Kṛṣṇa has said, that is truth. Read that. Translation. "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me." *That's all. That is understanding. Arjuna is not a fool. He said: "Whatever You have said, I accept them as truth." That is real understanding. And as soon as you make amendment, that you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan vadasi keśava . There are so many rascals, they think, "I don't believe in this, I don't believe in that." That is not understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . : Does it mean that before we, or anybody, before he at all . . . *Before he, if . . . first of all he must know what is Kṛṣṇa. Then he will understand. That what is Kṛṣṇa, that he will understand from Bhagavad*-gītā by this beginning. And at the end Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Lord. So if you know that Kṛṣṇa is Supreme Lord, then whatever He says is correct. : That means the first thing is to accept Kṛṣṇa as God, and then . . . Not blindly. : Not blindly. Not blindly. But you must know . . . just like if you accept the government, and the government orders, "This man should be hanged," you have to accept it. You cannot protest that, "The government has ordered this man should be hanged. It should be protested." And who will care for your protest? Government is government. You cannot criticize. You may criticize on account of your less intelligence, but government order is all. Is it not? If government orders that, "This man should be hanged," can you say anything against it? It will not be accepted. Similarly, if you know that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, then as Arjuna said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram (BG 10.12). Unless you understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's personality, you will try to weight the strength of His words, the value of His words. But if you understand other statement . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "I am the supreme authority." So if He is the supreme authority, then whatever He has said, it is all right. But if you have doubt about His supreme authority, then you will find out His fault. That is the defect. So if Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the supreme authority . . ." If you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority, then you will understand that whatever He has said, that is absolute. Now if we become doubtful, that is on account of our less intelligence. Why you are questioning this, that Kṛṣṇa . . . what you are question? : I said that, as an Indian, suppose I try to speak about *Gītā* or philosophy of Hinduism to people in the neighborhood, either in the office or elsewhere, especially with the Europeans, it becomes a point for discussion where it becomes difficult to convince as to why a person should take action without knowing the consequences or even with knowing that the consequences are going to be bad. For instance, Arjuna had to kill his relatives. If he knows that he's going to do it, or if somebody, for instance, in a war, he knows that his friends are on the other side, he may find it hard to shoot at them . . . So why Arjuna did later on? : Because I think he took God's . . . *Because he was fool in the beginning, and after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā he became intelligent. Why don't you take in that way? In the beginning, he was rascal. Therefore he needed instruction of Bhagavad-gītā . And when he understood Bhagavad-gītā , what did he say? Hmm? Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā . (aside) Find out this verse. Naṣṭo mohaḥ , "Now my illusion is over." Smṛtir labdhā tvat prasādān madhusūdana . *Sthito 'smi gata*-sandehaḥ : "Now all my doubts are over. Now I shall kill." Why did you not say this to your European audience? : Because I don't know the *Gītā* myself that good. *Then why do you preach? Then first of all know, then preach. If you did not know, you should not preach. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). First of all make your life perfect, then try to make others perfect. Don't cheat others. So when Arjuna actually became intelligent, he said, sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . This is understanding. "Yes, now I am situated in my proper understanding, I shall carry out Your order." Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard on one lecture tape, you mentioned your Guru Mahārāja has said that in the morning he had to beat the mind into submission. Yes. How can we do this? Practice this. Your mind, when he says something hodgepodge, just beat him with shoes, just to bring him in order. Here is the real understanding, that: *This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Whether you are prepared to act according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, then your life is successful. Otherwise you are in darkness. So as Arjuna, he was in the darkness . . . he's kṣatriya . The fight was arranged between the two sections of the family, Pāṇḍavas and Kurus, and when he was to fight actually with his family members, he became bewildered that, "Kṛṣṇa, what is this? I'll have to kill my family members." So then he became His disciple that, "I am kṣatriya , it is my duty to fight. Now I am hesitating." Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ (BG 2.7). "I'm just deviating from my duty, so Kṛṣṇa, I accept You as my guru; *kindly give me instruction." So that Bhagavad*-gītā was given instruction . . . (break) He agreed, "Yes, now my illusion is over, I shall fight." This is understanding of Bhagavad-gītā . If you follow Arjuna as he understood, then your understanding of Bhagavad-gītā is perfect. If you do not understand, then you have not understood what is Kṛṣṇa's speaking and what is Bhagavad-gītā . Yes? *Swāmījī, in Bhagavad*-gītā we can see that Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna that, "I will not fight for you, but I'll only drive your chariot." Why He refused to fight? Why He didn't fight? That is, because it was fight amongst the family members. So He was also related with the Kuru family. His aunt, Kuntī . . . Kuntī was married to the Pāṇḍavas. So the family members may not think that He's partial, so He divided Himself into two: His soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. And Arjuna and Duryodhana were present, requesting Him to take their side. So Kṛṣṇa said that, "We are all family members, so I divide Myself into two—My soldiers and Myself. So if you want, you take Me or My soldiers, as you like, but if you take Me, I say I'll not fight." So Duryodhana thought that, "Kṛṣṇa will not fight, and He's prepared to give me soldiers," he took the soldiers, and Arjuna said: "No, I want You." So this was the division. So in the beginning He said that, "Even if I go to one side, I'll not fight." So how He could fight? Not that He was not a fighter, but because He promised that, "The side which will accept, I'll not fight." But He did not say that, "I'll not give you instruction of fighting." That is Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) : He took the chariot wheel when Bhīṣma pitāmaha was coming to Arjuna. Is that a fight? *Yes, that is another instance, that for His devotee He can break His promise also. That is Kṛṣṇa. Arjuna . . . Duryodhana complained to Bhīṣmadeva that, "My dear grandfather, because you have affection for Arjuna and others, you are not fighting properly according to your strength." So at that time Bhīṣma saw that, "This man is doubting about my sincerity." So he wanted to show his power, so he said: "All right." He knew everything—he was a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa—so he promised to Duryodhana that "Tomorrow I shall fight in such a way that either Arjuna will die or Kṛṣṇa will have to break His promise." So he fought in such a way that Arjuna was practically vanquished. At that time, Kṛṣṇa took the wheel of the chariot and came before him that, "Bhīṣma, you stop this fight, otherwise I'll kill you." So Bhīṣma said: "Yes, I am stopping my fight, because You have broken Your promise, that's all." This is the dealing between God and His devotee. There is competition of devotional service. There are so many things. But on the whole, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, the supreme authority. His instruction is final, and anyone who can understand this, his life is successful. Therefore our request is that don't make unnecessary useless interpretation. You take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and act accordingly, your life will be successful. This is our mission. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But if you cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā , we can try to explain before you what it is. Hare Kṛṣṇa. There are many svāmīs coming from India nowadays, and they are trying to establish, some of them like Gaṇapati temples or the Lord Śiva temples and so forth, and trying to confuse Westerners, especially Americans, because most of them, they do come to America. Being Indian, how we can help about this confusion? *You take Bhagavad*-gītā as standard. Who is the Hindu or Indian there who can refuse the authority of Bhagavad-gītā ? So you present them Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then it will not happen. I don't think any Indian or any Hindu can deny the authority of Bhagavad-gītā . Is there anyone? No. *Then you present them. That is, I have taken, that this is the summum bonum of Indian culture, Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā is accepted all over the world as the greatest book of knowledge, so take this standard and preach, and people will be enlightened, without misinterpretation. *Here's a svāmī, Swami Krishna*-prema Idavatakar from Gorakhpur Vinodiya from Calcutta. Swāmījī, I made this for you. Oh, thank you very much. Very nice. He has come here? Let him come. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Swāmī? I have one question which is widely discussed everywhere, that eating of meat is sin. Now we see that while for our survival, while walking, while working we kill so many things, knowingly or unknowingly, is it not sin, that? (to Svāmī guest) Aiye, aiye swami. (Come, come Swamiji.) Give him an āsana . Aiye. (Come.) Jaya . Kab aye idhar aap. Idhar hi rehte hain kya? (When did you come here? You are staying here only?) What is that question? Just try to understand. *Why is meat*-eating sin? *He said he can understand meat*-eating is sin, but when we are doing our ordinary work and normal functions, aren't we killing so many other things? So is that sin or not? *Yes. That is also sin. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that whatever you eat, bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). Anyone who is cooking something, meat or vegetables, for his own eating, he is eating only sin. It is not that the vegetarians are not sinful and the meat-eaters are sinful. Everyone is sinful if it is not cooked for Kṛṣṇa. It is not that we are propagating that you become vegetarian. We are propagating that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our propaganda. But because we are trying to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, we offer something to Kṛṣṇa. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So not patraṁ puṣpam , whatever within this group available—fruits, flowers, grains, milk—so we offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña . Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). If you do not perform yajña , then you will be bound up by the resultant action. So this is yajña , to offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña means to satisfy Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-ārādhyate . Yajña means satisfy Kṛṣṇa. But if you don't Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , then you are sinful. Not that if you become vegetarian, then you are not sinful. Not that. Because you have to eat something. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam . Either you eat vegetable or meat, you have to eat something. So somebody prefers eating animals and somebody prefers eating vegetables, but all of them have got life. Therefore you cannot kill any life. So if you eat for yourself, then you are simply eating sin. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt . But if you take Kṛṣṇa prasādam , then if there is any sin, it goes to Kṛṣṇa, you take pure prasādam . And Kṛṣṇa is apāpa-vidham . So our duty is to worship Kṛṣṇa and offer Him so many nice things—fruits, flowers, grains, milk, milk preparation. We are doing that. You are taking prasādam . So that is our business. Is it clear, your answer? Yes. *We are interested in eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam . If Kṛṣṇa says: "Give Me meat," we shall give Him. But He does not say. He says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Meat*-eating is sinful, that's a fact, amedha, tāmasika , but if you remain in the darkness of ignorance, you cannot improve your spiritual life. Tāmasika . It is described in the Bhagavad-gītā , rājasika, tāmasika, sāttvika . Therefore we should eat sāttvika , and that is also after offering to Kṛṣṇa. Then we are free from all sinful reactions. And if you want to implicate yourself in sinful activities, then you can eat whatever you like. But either you eat meat or vegetables, if it is eaten for my satisfaction of the tongue, you become implicated in sinful activities, and you have to suffer the reaction. The animal you are killing, he'll kill also you next life. Then you become bound up. I have one question. Though there is mention, in earlier times, we see also used to eat meat. When? *Aśvamedha*-yajña , all these things, and before that . . . That is now prohibited. *If you refer to śāstra , the śāstra says in Kali*-yuga these should be avoided. Śrīla Prabhupāda, I believe that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. *At that time, when there was aśvamedha*-yajña, gomedha-yajña , that was not for eating. That was to prove the strength of Vedic mantra , how the animal was put in the fire and again gave him a new life. So where is that Vedic chanter, Vedic brāhmaṇa, yajñika brāhmaṇa ? There is no such things, powerful brāhmaṇa . Therefore it is to be avoided. And that was not for eating purpose. To put one old animal in the fire and again he comes back with new life, that was the purpose. This question was raised by Chand Kazi to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu challenged him that, "What is this your religion, you are killing your father and mother?" So he referred to this, that in . . . "Formerly they were sacrificing cows in Your śāstra ." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained that sacrifice was not meant for eating. That was meant for renovating new life. That is not for eating. Another question comes. Why . . . how the caste system has crippled our society so much, was accepted by . . . *Wrongly, wrongly. Kṛṣṇa says, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So according to quality and work. That is fact. If you have got engineering qualification and if you can work as engineer, people will call you engineer- sāhīb . Is it not? So there may be a class of engineer, but that depends on quality and work. But if you have no quality, no work, how you become engineer? If you have no qualification of becoming an engineer, and you do not work, you work as a clerk, and if somebody addresses you "Engineer- sāhīb ," he is a fool, you are a fool. (laughter) So if he's not a brāhmaṇa , if you call him a brāhmaṇa , then you are fool and he is also fool. So that is going on, fool's paradise. A rascal who is not in qualification in brāhmaṇa , if he's addressed and given honor of a brāhmaṇa , he sees, "Oh, for nothing I am getting this honor, that's right, very nice." And who is giving him honor as brāhmaṇa , he's also rascal. But it is not that. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth. One must acquire the quality of a brāhmaṇa : satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42) He must be truthful, he must be self-restrained, self-controlled, full of knowledge, very simple. All these qualifications, when he acquires, then he becomes a brāhmaṇa . No, even in *Rāmāyaṇa* and *Mahābhārata* we find this kind of . . . Ekalavya was discriminated, Karṇa was discriminated . . . Because he was not accustomed to the practice of brāhmaṇa . One must be brāhmaṇa by practice. That is wanted. This is kind of discrimination though. Hmm? This is kind of discrimination though. *Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Never mind if he's born in low-grade family, but he's eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . Do you mean to say unless one becomes a first-class brāhmaṇa he can go back to home, back to Godhead? No, that is not possible. So, kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ śudhyanti (SB 2.4.18). The purificatory process . . . just like these Europeans, Americans, they are being recognized as brāhmaṇas because they are pure devotees. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He says, kṛṣṇa-bhajane nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra (CC Antya 4.67). Kṛṣṇa-bhajane , if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no such discrimination, even if you make that. Because as soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become the best Brāhmiṇ . That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He immediately becomes on the brahmam platform. And brāhmaṇa means one who knows Brahman . Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇa . So every devotee, if he's purely engaged in devotional service, he's more than brāhmaṇa . And so-called brāhmaṇa , without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is not recognized. Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syād vaiṣṇavaḥ śva-paco guruḥ (Padma Purāṇa). If a dog-eater, caṇḍāla , he has become a Vaiṣṇava, he can be guru . But a brāhmaṇa , ṣaṭ-karma-nipuṇo vipro mantra-tantra-viśāradaḥ, avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt . If he's expert, Vedic chanting and everything, mantra-tantra-viśārada , but if he's not a Vaiṣṇava, he cannot become guru . So according to our Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . that is actually according to Vedic injunction. If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you become more than a brāhmaṇa . Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and then your life is successful. And Kṛṣṇa is being distributed by Lord Kṛṣṇa. Not only He's giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema , kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ (CC Madhya 19.53). Caitanya Mahāprabhu is so kind, merciful, He's not only giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema , which is very, very rare. Aap idhar kahan tehre hain? udhar koi mandir hai? Chaliye kuch prachar to ho raha hai. Kṛṣṇa bhakti Gītā Press vishesh prachar kar rahi hai. To kaise kam chal raha hai. Teen-char mahine rahiyega idhar. Hamara jo program hai vo to aplog manenge nahi. Dekhiye na ye sab angrez log mast mundan kiya, tilak lagaya. Ye hum apko bolenge to aap bigad jayenge. Ye to hamara padatti ipehle hai mast mundan karo, tilak lagao. (Where are you staying here? Is there any temple there? Okay, at least some preaching is going on. Kṛṣṇa devotion, Gītā Press is doing special publicity. So how is the work going on? Will you stay for 3 to 4 months here? The program, what we have is not agreeable to you? Look at these foreigners, they are so happy with shaved heads, applying tilak on their forehead. If I tell you this you will get upset. This is our practice, to become shaved head and apply tilak .) Prabhupāda? Buddha was the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, right? Then why he has preached the impersonal form of God? *That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . (aside) You have got Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam here? Yes. Find out that, when Lord Buddha appeared, that verse. Sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). His propaganda was to cheat the atheist class of men. Atheist class of men, they did not recognize existence of God, so He became one of them. Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam . This atheist class, they were killing animals in the name of yajña like anything. So yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7), so He came as Buddha to stop this animal killing. His real business was stop the animal killing, that these rascals are going to hell in the name of religion, so at least stop their activities of animal killing. So therefore he started the mission, ahiṁsā paramo dharma , "Don't kill animals." But in the Vedas there is recommendation, in the yajña , as you were saying, that there is . . . animal killing is recommended. So people presented that, "Here is animal killing recommended in the yajña ." Therefore he denied the authority of Vedas . Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam . So this Buddha incarnation is cheating the atheist class of men. He said that, "Don't kill animals. If you are killed you feel pain. Why you should kill animals?" That was his mission, to stop animal killing, sinful activities. So what was your question? I just asked why he has preached impersonal form of God. Yes, because they were all godless, so he said: "There is no God, but you stop this animal killing." That was his mission. And he said, "There is no God, but whatever I say, you accept." So they agreed. But he is God. That is cheating. (laughter) Superficially he said there is no God, but he is God. Somehow or other, if people stop animal killing and accept Lord Buddha, then he becomes at least one step forward to God realization. So in a cheating process he made good to others. Yes? Translation. *"Then in the beginning of Kali*-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Añjanā, in the province of Gayā, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theists." To delude them. Read the purport. *"Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, appeared in the province of Gayā (Bihar) as the son of Añjanā, and he preached his own conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned in the Vedas . At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and animal killing was indulged in unrestrictedly. Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse psychological effects incurred by animal killing. Less intelligent men of the age of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time being they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps for proceeding further on the path of God realization. He deluded the atheists because such atheists who followed his principles did not believe in God, but they kept their absolute faith in Lord Buddha, who himself was the incarnation of God. Thus the faithless people were made to believe in God in the form of Lord Buddha. That was the mercy of Lord Buddha: he made the faithless faithful to him. Killing of animals before the advent of Lord Buddha was the most prominent feature of the society. They claimed that these were Vedic sacrifices. When the Vedas were not accepted through the authoritative disciplic succession, the casual readers of the Vedas are misled by the flowery language of that system of knowledge. In the Bhagavad*-gītā a comment has been made on such foolish scholars. The foolish scholars of Vedic literature who do not care to receive the transcendental message through the transcendental realized sources of disciplic succession are sure to be bewildered. To them, the ritualistic ceremonies are considered to be all in all. They have no depth of knowledge. *"According to the Bhagavad*-gītā , the whole system of the Vedas is to lead one gradually to the path of the Supreme Lord. The whole theme of Vedic literature is to know the Supreme Lord, the individual soul, the cosmic situation and the relations between all these items. When the relation is known, the relative function begins, and as a result of such a function the ultimate goal of life of going back to Godhead takes place in the easiest manner. Unfortunately, unauthorized scholars of the Vedas become captivated by the purificatory ceremonies only, and natural progress is checked thereby. To such bewildered persons of atheistic propensity, Lord Buddha is the emblem of theism. He therefore first of all wanted to check the habit of animal killing. The animal killers are dangerous elements on the path of going back to Godhead. There are two types of animal killers. The soul is also sometimes called the animal, or the living being. Therefore both the slaughterers of animals as well as those who have lost their identity of the soul are animal killers. Mahārāja Parīkṣit said that only the animal killer cannot relish the transcendental message of the Supreme Lord. Therefore if people are to be educated on the path of Godhead, they must be taught first and foremost to stop the process of animal killing as above mentioned. It is nonsensical to say that animal killing has nothing to do with spiritual realization. By this dangerous theory many so-called sannyāsīs have sprung up by the grace of Kali-yuga to preach animal killing under the garb of the Vedas ." Now there are so many rascals in this dress of sannyāsī , they are eating meat. That is going on. They say: "What is the wrong of eating meat? We can eat." They eat meat. Then? "The subject matter has already been discussed in the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Maulana Chand Kazi Saheb. The animal sacrifice as stated in the *Vedas* is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse." There, your question. *"Because the asuras , or the so*-called scholars of Vedic . . ." *Now you were referring to the Vedic principle, but that does not mean you have to open slaughterhouse. But these rascals are opening slaughterhouse. Do you think it is Vedic principle? Suppose it is recommended that animals should be sacrificed in the Vedic ritualistic ceremony. Does it mean that you shall open regular slaughterhouse? Just as the Christians say that Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they are right in opening big, big slaughterhouse? Maybe Lord Jesus Christ ate fish in some awkward circumstances, but that does not mean that he is recommending to open slaughterhouse. In the Ten Commandments he says: "Thou shall not kill." When there is absolute necessity, there is no other food, that is another thing, but if there is sufficient other foodstuff, why should you kill? They are not even human being, those who are animal killers. Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Those who are animal killers, they are not even human being, what to speak of religious system. Nivṛtta*-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt ka uttamaśloka . . . (SB 10.1.4). If you are animal killer, your God consciousness is finished. You'll never be able to understand what is God. Then your life is finished. This life is meant for understanding God, and if you are animal killer, then your God understanding is finished. May I ask a question, Prabhupāda? Something that I've wondered about, perhaps you could explain it briefly. I believe that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme God, so don't get me wrong, but since you mentioned Christ, was he an incarnation of Kṛṣṇa? Was Jesus Christ sent here by Kṛṣṇa from . . . No, he says that he is son of God—that is accepted. Kṛṣṇa was Christ's father then. Yes. No, Kṛṣṇa is father, and Christ is the son. I understand it now. I just wondered. I wanted to hear . . . He came, "I am son of God." Yes. And when he spoke of his father in heaven, he was speaking of Kṛṣṇa. That is. Yes. I understand. It all fits together now. Swāmījī, how could you convince then these Christian people that Christ was the son of God, or Kṛṣṇa was the . . . Christ says himself that "I am the son of God." (laughter) Many Christians, they do not . . . Many Christians also . . . there are so many Christian editions. That is another thing. We have accepted. But all these Christians, they all my students, they are coming from Christian. How they accept Kṛṣṇa as the father? Prabhupāda, did Christ return to the spiritual planets then, when he left the earth, to be with Kṛṣṇa? *He is coming from spiritual planets. He is authorized representative of Kṛṣṇa. We accept him as śaktyāveśa*-avatāra . So I was invited in some priestly meeting in Melbourne, they asked me the question, "What is your opinion of Christ?" So I said: "He's our guru ." (laughter) Actually, we accept him as our guru . He's preaching God's message, he's Vaiṣṇava. Anyone who accepts God, he's Vaiṣṇava. He was explaining kingdom of God, God. So according to time, circumstances, audience . . . now we can just imagine what kind of people he had to deal with, that his commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." Then understand how much they were accustomed to killing. So what kind of men they were? And not only that, in spite of hearing his instruction, "Thou shall not kill," they killed him first. So what kind of men they were, just imagine. He said: "Thou shall not kill," and they decided, "We shall kill you first." So this class of men he had to deal with. What would happen to the people that killed Christ on the cross? Very bad, it seems. Christ cannot be killed, but they killed themselves. So we read that Christ said: "I and my father are one," so they say therefore Christ is Kṛṣṇa, so therefore Kṛṣṇa can't be God. *"One" means in quality. And in the Vedic literature we say ahaṁ brahmāsmi . That means we are one in quality. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā . So now we are material bhūtaḥ, jīva-bhūtaḥ . When we realize that, "I am not this body. I am spirit soul, I am part and parcel of God," that is brahma-bhūtaḥ . Then bhakti begins. Then he enters into Vaikuṇṭha, after Brahman realization. So Lord Buddha's finished? No. Go on, finish it. *"The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse. Because the asuras or the so*-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward the evidence of animal killing in the Vedas , Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas . This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted in order . . ." *Just like you said that in the Vedas there is animal killing, therefore . . . (break) That was not killing. So instead of wasting his time, he said: "I don't care for your Vedas . It is my order that you stop if you love me." Here is the same . . . you cannot open slaughterhouse giving reference to the Vedas , or any sacrifice either. The Jews and everyone, the Muhammadans, they also make sacrifice. One day in the year they sacrifice. It's not that they recommend open a slaughterhouse. This is all nonsense, rākṣasa . That sacrifice also recommended in this sense, that you cannot stop animal killing. There will be a class of men who will eat meat—to give them some concession. So this is recommended, "All right, if you want to eat meat, you sacrifice." Amongst the Hindus, just like Kālī*-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā, the animal eaters, they are given this concession that, "If you want to eat meat, you just worship Goddess Kālī," and this Goddess Kālī–worshiping is recommended on the amāvasyā , the dark moon night, one day in a month, at the dead of night. So if one goes on eating meat in this way, one day in a month and dead of night, then he'll automatically give it up, "So much botheration, better give it up." Actually deny. "Yes, you can eat once in a month at the dead of night, when everyone will sleep, nobody can hear the screaming of the animal . . ." These are the recommendations. That is indirectly denying. If one is intelligent, he'll accept it, "Why so much botheration for eating meat? Better give it up." Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are so many gurus preaching Buddhism . . . We are not talking of so many gurus; *we are talking of real guru , that's all, real guru . Real guru is he who talks in disciplic succession of Kṛṣṇa. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). That is guru . The bhumi-phala guru is no guru . Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt . Anyone who is not Vaiṣṇava, he's not guru . First, He says in the Bhagavad-gītā , Bhagavān, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Find out this. He is guru who is preaching what Kṛṣṇa has taught. He's guru . Not that anyone and everyone becomes a guru . No. If you want to be cheated by such rascal guru , that is your business, but who is guru , that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . Anyone who preaches the teachings of Kṛṣṇa, he is guru . Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "You become a guru on My order." "How shall I become guru ? I have no knowledge." Oh, you don't require any knowledge to manufacture. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, you become guru ." Everyone can become. The instruction is there. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). We say the same thing. Not that "I have become Kṛṣṇa, not . . ." We say: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Then you become guru . Kṛṣṇa's instruction; *not to become Kṛṣṇa. If you want to become Kṛṣṇa, then you are not guru , you are cheater. Suppose you are working for master. If you say: "My master has fixed up this price, you cannot change it," then you are honest salesman. And if you place yourself that, "I am the master," then you are cheater. The cheater cannot be teacher. Teacher is he who simply teaches what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. He is teacher. That is not difficult. Anyone can do it. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Whomever you meet, you simply speak to him the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Then you become guru ." And if you don't say that, if you manufacture your own words, then you are cheater, you are not teacher. The so-called gurus , they're cheater. They want to become Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are cheater. And it is very easy thing if you cheat people, that "You take this mantra and you become God." Is God so easy thing to become God? But they want to be cheated. "Purchasing mantra , I shall become God." They want to be cheated. They do not think that, "Whether I can actually become God?" They do not take the weight of His existence. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . So, what is the time now? Eight o'clock, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) Prasādam . (to Swāmī) What is that book? (indistinct) . . . '67 . . . (indistinct) . . . with three disciples, Ācchā . . . . Bombay to Calcutta. Ah. (end) Conversation -- July 11, 1976, New York (Evening Darsana) "I take away as death." Whatever they are accumulating, everything will be taken away at the time of death . . . (indistinct) . . . they are simply collecting, accumulating, discovering—forgetting that everything will be taken away at the time of death. Discover something which can check death, there will be no more death. That is real discovery. What do you think? Well, it's a question to think about. Because whatever we are discovering, it will be taken away by death. So discover something which will stop death. And that is real discovery. But don't you think it will be a bad thing, because there are some bad people in the world like, let's say, Hitler and Stalin and others, they may be the first people to use the technology to prolong their life? The thing is, bad or good, everyone will be taken away by death. Is it not a fact? Hitler is no longer existing, neither Stalin nor Gandhi. Gandhi was supposed to be very good man. He's also taken by death, and Hitler is also taken by death. And Stalin also taken. And I'll also, you will be also. So death will take away everyone. There is no doubt about it. Therefore discover something which will stop death. That is real discovery. *Śrīla Prabhupāda? Which is the most important chapter of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Every word is important. Every word. Jaya . *Every word. Beginning from dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ ( BG 1.1), every word. Every one. Every word. Every word. *And that will give you guidance. Read Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, word for word. But don't misinterpret and spoil. The rascals misinterpret and spoil the whole Bhagavad-gītā . That is the difficulty. You cannot misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā . Then it will be spoiled. If you take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, you are benefited. And if you misinterpret, then you spoil. So generally they misinterpret. Everyone speaks on Bhagavad-gītā , but he misinterprets. You've made it very clear, Prabhupāda. I want to thank you for that. I like your purports as much as Kṛṣṇa's actual words, because now I can understand it. *Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . Otherwise, for the last so many years—I am speaking in Western countries—so many svāmīs , so many yogīs come, they speak on Bhagavad-gītā but misinterpret. So not a single devotee was there. And now Bhagavad-gītā is presented as it is, and so many devotees are coming. Now we can understand it. *You could understand long ago, but difficulty is we accept this misinterpretation, spoiled understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . Just like this gentleman was speaking he did not like Kṛṣṇa, he told me. He told me just now. He did not like Kṛṣṇa. *They'll read Bhagavad*-gītā , and they'll not like Kṛṣṇa. This is their reading of Bhagavad-gītā . They don't want to read it yet. *Aiyee, idhar aiyee. (Come, come here.) Now all Indians, they should take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and make their life fruitful. The Europeans and Americans, they are taking. Why Indians are not taking? *Is it because the Indians think that they know much about Bhagavad*-gītā ? Being born a Hindu, they might think they know the religion, but not very much. They are not Kṛṣṇa conscious at all. Just see. He knows everything, he does not know Kṛṣṇa? How he knows everything if he does not know Kṛṣṇa? If you think that you know everything, then you must know Kṛṣṇa. But if you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then what do you know? Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply know Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything. And if you know everything and you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then you are rascal, that's all. Mūḍha . That is the test. If you know everything but do not know Kṛṣṇa, then you are a rascal. And if you know Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything automatically. I think they think they know it, but I'm sure they are not aware of it. If they know Kṛṣṇa, why they do not come to the Kṛṣṇa's temple? Quite a number of them come here. I remember the days when I used to be the only Indian in the temple, seven, eight years ago. Even though they are not coming, they should now come, and we can open many other temples if you come. We can maintain many other temples. You come and take advantage of it. Why you are losing your own culture? That is foolishness. You are Indians, and you do not know Kṛṣṇa. That is not a very good credit. Remember when we were building our altar? Remember last year when I talked to you? We were building altar, and virtually I went to every Indian, and myself and the president of that temple, we begged everything we can do possible. And we wanted to collect almost ten thousand dollars. We couldn't even collect five thousand dollars, and most of them were making between fifteen and twenty thousand dollars. Some of them in fact gave us pennies. Just see. *And they took us one Bhagavad*-gītā . We gave them Bhagavad-gītā and they gave us some pennies. Not a very good trade. (laughter) This is not good report. Praghoṣa, he gets at least ten dollars in lakṣmī . It's difficult to collect money from the Indians. That is my experience, and I . . . Because they are thinking of rupees, not dollars. (laughter) That means they do not like Kṛṣṇa. I don't know. Somehow or other, I myself am totally confused about Indian community in this country. I have no comments to make, but I found out that they are the least charitable community among all communities. I lived in Canada almost ten years, and I found out other communities are very charitable. Even if you go to other community, at least they will give something, but Indians, no. Aiye na. Please come. Every Indian should come to the temple and become a devotee. I think more and more people are really coming to the temple and becoming part of it, as I think most of the devotees around here know, in the last few years. Everybody I know of . . . "More and more coming" means not all are coming. (laughter) All of them would be the most desirable thing. What is the objection? There are so many other temples. Hindu temple, Sindhu temple . . . there's organization of community of Indians, they are trying to develop their own. *There is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity? Yes. There is *Gītā* temple, there's a Sindhi temple. Without Kṛṣṇa? *Gītā* without Kṛṣṇa? It is a temple, everybody facing their back towards Kṛṣṇa and chanting about what was happening in the town. They have Kṛṣṇa mūrti , but when he went there everyone had their back to the mūrti . And they were chanting . . . not chanting, talking about what was going on in the town. Social. For social reasons. That means they do not know Kṛṣṇa. But here you can only talk about Kṛṣṇa, so they don't want to come. If you want to talk to them about Kṛṣṇa you'll lose a friend. Right away. So either make friends with Kṛṣṇa, or make friends with that guy. That is not very good. That means they have fallen from their culture. They have lost their culture. Some of them in fact enjoy eating hot dogs and hamburgers. They said: "Oh, I have been eating vegetables for ages. Now I have come here to eat hot dogs and hamburgers." That is their comment. They have done totally . . . What is this hot dog? It's meat, sausage. Together with other poisons. Made from cows. (break) (referring to guests leaving) Some prasādam? Oh, they have taken prasādam . Want something to eat? Feast prasādam . Someone is making them some little prasāda ? There is some prasādam to distribute. *Khoob khaiye aur aap log ko to chahiye Kṛṣṇa prasadam sikhana, ye bechare to jante hi nahin, Krishna ko chod diya to kaun sikhayega. Kyon aplog Kṛṣṇa ko chod diya. (Have lots of prasadam and you must learn how to prepare Kṛṣṇa prasadam , these people don't know — they have forgotten Kṛṣṇa so who will teach them. Why did you people leave Kṛṣṇa?) And they talk of Bhagavad*-gītā and keeping Kṛṣṇa background? Somebody says? *Yes. Mostly they don't even talk of Bhagavad*-gītā , they talk about social, but Kṛṣṇa they keep to your back. They have named the place Gītā Mandira, Gītā Temple. But they do not discuss Gītā . Just for show. *That is the disease. Even Mahatma Gandhi, he was talking of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad*-gītā , but throughout his whole life he never established a temple of Kṛṣṇa, although his photograph you'll find with Bhagavad-gītā . This is the calamity. *In the last days Mahatma Gandhi kept saying rāma rāma, rāma*-nāma is the only way chanting . . . one of his article he says: "There is no other cure but to chant the name of the Lord." *Mahatma Gandhi would have preached Bhagavad*-gītā , the world would have taken very seriously, because he was respectable. *You wrote him to preach Bhagavad*-gītā . *Yes. Jo kuch ho gaya ho gaya ab to aap sab pardesh me hain khoob Bhagavat*-Gita ka prachar kijiye aur samajhiye sab kuch hai. (Whatever has happened is past now. You all are in a foreign land. Do extensive preaching and publicity of Bhagavad-gītā and understand everything is there.) The four things Kṛṣṇa wants, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). He charges four thing: to think of Kṛṣṇa, to become His devotee, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, mad-yājī . . . find out this verse. Here is Bhagavad-gītā . Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru . "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." *Charges four things, He wants: to always think of Him, become His devotee, worship Him, mad*-yājī , and offer obeisances unto Him. Therefore this temple is there. These four things can be done even by the child. So why don't you do it? And the guarantee is that if anyone does like that, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Every one of you should come to the temple, always think of the Deity, and if possible chant His holy name and offer Him some worship and obeisances. That will make you perfect. New York is such a big city, there are so many Indians, they should come. Where is the difficulty, to become a thinker of Kṛṣṇa, always thinking, man-manā ? The Deity is there. As soon as you come, you get some impression of the Deity. So if you think of the Deity, where is the difficulty? Koi difficulty hai. (Is there any difficulty?) Can anyone say that there is difficulty in thinking of Kṛṣṇa? And as soon as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become a devotee—immediately. And as soon as you become a devotee, you'll offer something for worship. And at the end of worship, you offer your obeisances. There is no need of education or Vedānta knowledge. Vedānta knowledge means this: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. Anyone can do. And practically see, these foreigners, ten years, five years ago they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and because they are following this man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ , they are now advanced devotees. So why Indians are lacking? Hmm? What is the objection? Simply our hearts are caked with dust. Therefore we shall keep it dusty. If our heart is full of dust, cleanse it. That is intelligence. What is this, "My heart is dirty. Let it be kept as dirty"? No, if it is dirty, cleanse it. It is the duty of every Indian to understand Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to others. That is real Indian business. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that every one of you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to others who are unaware of Kṛṣṇa. That is the injunction; *that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said, bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41): "Anyone who has taken birth in India as a human being"—not as dogs; *manuṣya, manuṣya means human—"his duty is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach to the other people for welfare activities." Bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra . We should mark this point, manuṣya-janma . He's not requesting the cats and dogs. So in other words, that those who are not taking, Indians . . . Bhagavad-gītā is known to everyone; *every Indian knows. But if he does not preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he is not to be counted as human being. Because He says, manuṣya*-janma haila yāra . If we claim to be human being, born in India, it is our duty to understand the value of life from Bhagavad-gītā and preach this cult to others to do real welfare activities. This is the duty of every Indian. Why Indians are lacking in their duty? They do not understand Kṛṣṇa and they do not understand how to do good to others. Now whatever is done is done. It is time, now that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is here, the temple is here, you come, you understand the whole philosophy and distribute. That is your duty. In New York City we can open many temples, provided you come. Śrīla Prabhupāda, how does it feel to be back in New York again? Hmm? How does it feel to be back in New York? Yes, I feel very much pleased, because I came here alone, without any shelter. I was loitering on the street. Ten years ago, wasn't it? Yes, 1965. Then in 1966 I established this institution in a storefront on the Second Avenue. That is the beginning. I never thought we shall be able to possess such a big building. You've done so much in that short time. I have not done, Kṛṣṇa has done. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has helped you to do it. *That I was speaking, that if we become sincere to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa can give us all opportunities. He's all*-powerful; *He can do that. (aside) Those who are going, give them. Those who are going, you can give one. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. Do you read all these verses, those who are reading Bhagavad*-gītā ? Just in progress. This verse is very important. *Every one of you is reading our Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is ? Yes. Is there any question about? *Is there any question about Bhagavad*-gītā ? *No, as you are reading Bhagavad*-gītā , is there any doubt, question? Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to know if anyone has questions. *There is nothing doubtful, everything is very plain. But we, by our rascaldom, we make it doubt, by our rascal interpretation. Everyone can understand. Just like dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). The Kurukṣetra is dharma-kṣetra . Still Kurukṣetra is there in India, and it is dharma-kṣetre . People go there for performing religious ritualistic ceremonies. So where is the difficulty to understand? And five thousand years ago the Kurus and Pāṇḍavas, they assembled there for fighting—that is clearly stated, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Who were they? Māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva: "My sons and the sons of Pāṇḍu," Kuru-Pāṇḍava. So where is the difficulty to understand? But by misinterpretation they'll write volumes of books and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. This business should be stopped. Then we will be benefited. Everyone is misinterpreting. Is it not a fact they are misinterpreting? What do you think? So many intelligent people, they are going to Transcendental Meditation simply because it's costing money. They want to pay. My sister, her husband, they are intelligent people, but they are simply being misled . . . *So intelligent that they cannot understand Bhagavad*-gītā . What kind of intelligence is that, the plain thing in the Bhagavad-gītā , they cannot understand? Very bad intelligence. *Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). *Yes. So*-called intelligent, they are not intelligent. They have lost their sense by the influence of māyā . Even big, big men, they say that Kṛṣṇa, this Kṛṣṇa is not God. "The God Kṛṣṇa is different" and so on, so on. Hmm? Do they not say like that? *: I wanted to ask you a question. While talking to some of the European people, when we say that Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that asked him to fight, kill his own relatives and friends and not to bother about the consequences of the action. Now this statement sometimes is difficult for people of the West to understand, where they say before you do any action you should know the consequences and then only take action . . . *That is the only statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? There is no other statement? : There is, but . . . So you have captured that only. : Not I . . . You're talking of that. : I'm talking discussion. In a discussion it's difficult to convince people of the West what is the answer to that. *But if you know Kṛṣṇa, that He is God, then whatever He speaks, it is all right. Just like Arjuna, he accepted Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). So he said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). Find out this verse. So "Whatever You say, I accept it as truth." That is understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . If you have understood Bhagavad-gītā , then you should have understood that whatever Kṛṣṇa has said, that is truth. Read that. Translation. "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me." *That's all. That is understanding. Arjuna is not a fool. He said: "Whatever You have said, I accept them as truth." That is real understanding. And as soon as you make amendment, that you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan vadasi keśava . There are so many rascals, they think, "I don't believe in this, I don't believe in that." That is not understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . : Does it mean that before we, or anybody, before he at all . . . *Before he, if . . . first of all he must know what is Kṛṣṇa. Then he will understand. That what is Kṛṣṇa, that he will understand from Bhagavad*-gītā by this beginning. And at the end Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Lord. So if you know that Kṛṣṇa is Supreme Lord, then whatever He says is correct. : That means the first thing is to accept Kṛṣṇa as God, and then . . . Not blindly. : Not blindly. Not blindly. But you must know . . . just like if you accept the government, and the government orders, "This man should be hanged," you have to accept it. You cannot protest that, "The government has ordered this man should be hanged. It should be protested." And who will care for your protest? Government is government. You cannot criticize. You may criticize on account of your less intelligence, but government order is all. Is it not? If government orders that, "This man should be hanged," can you say anything against it? It will not be accepted. Similarly, if you know that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, then as Arjuna said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram (BG 10.12). Unless you understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's personality, you will try to weight the strength of His words, the value of His words. But if you understand other statement . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "I am the supreme authority." So if He is the supreme authority, then whatever He has said, it is all right. But if you have doubt about His supreme authority, then you will find out His fault. That is the defect. So if Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the supreme authority . . ." If you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority, then you will understand that whatever He has said, that is absolute. Now if we become doubtful, that is on account of our less intelligence. Why you are questioning this, that Kṛṣṇa . . . what you are question? : I said that, as an Indian, suppose I try to speak about *Gītā* or philosophy of Hinduism to people in the neighborhood, either in the office or elsewhere, especially with the Europeans, it becomes a point for discussion where it becomes difficult to convince as to why a person should take action without knowing the consequences or even with knowing that the consequences are going to be bad. For instance, Arjuna had to kill his relatives. If he knows that he's going to do it, or if somebody, for instance, in a war, he knows that his friends are on the other side, he may find it hard to shoot at them . . . So why Arjuna did later on? : Because I think he took God's . . . *Because he was fool in the beginning, and after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā he became intelligent. Why don't you take in that way? In the beginning, he was rascal. Therefore he needed instruction of Bhagavad-gītā . And when he understood Bhagavad-gītā , what did he say? Hmm? Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā . (aside) Find out this verse. Naṣṭo mohaḥ , "Now my illusion is over." Smṛtir labdhā tvat prasādān madhusūdana . *Sthito 'smi gata*-sandehaḥ : "Now all my doubts are over. Now I shall kill." Why did you not say this to your European audience? : Because I don't know the *Gītā* myself that good. *Then why do you preach? Then first of all know, then preach. If you did not know, you should not preach. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). First of all make your life perfect, then try to make others perfect. Don't cheat others. So when Arjuna actually became intelligent, he said, sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . This is understanding. "Yes, now I am situated in my proper understanding, I shall carry out Your order." Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard on one lecture tape, you mentioned your Guru Mahārāja has said that in the morning he had to beat the mind into submission. Yes. How can we do this? Practice this. Your mind, when he says something hodgepodge, just beat him with shoes, just to bring him in order. Here is the real understanding, that: *This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Whether you are prepared to act according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, then your life is successful. Otherwise you are in darkness. So as Arjuna, he was in the darkness . . . he's kṣatriya . The fight was arranged between the two sections of the family, Pāṇḍavas and Kurus, and when he was to fight actually with his family members, he became bewildered that, "Kṛṣṇa, what is this? I'll have to kill my family members." So then he became His disciple that, "I am kṣatriya , it is my duty to fight. Now I am hesitating." Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ (BG 2.7). "I'm just deviating from my duty, so Kṛṣṇa, I accept You as my guru; *kindly give me instruction." So that Bhagavad*-gītā was given instruction . . . (break) He agreed, "Yes, now my illusion is over, I shall fight." This is understanding of Bhagavad-gītā . If you follow Arjuna as he understood, then your understanding of Bhagavad-gītā is perfect. If you do not understand, then you have not understood what is Kṛṣṇa's speaking and what is Bhagavad-gītā . Yes? *Swāmījī, in Bhagavad*-gītā we can see that Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna that, "I will not fight for you, but I'll only drive your chariot." Why He refused to fight? Why He didn't fight? That is, because it was fight amongst the family members. So He was also related with the Kuru family. His aunt, Kuntī . . . Kuntī was married to the Pāṇḍavas. So the family members may not think that He's partial, so He divided Himself into two: His soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. And Arjuna and Duryodhana were present, requesting Him to take their side. So Kṛṣṇa said that, "We are all family members, so I divide Myself into two—My soldiers and Myself. So if you want, you take Me or My soldiers, as you like, but if you take Me, I say I'll not fight." So Duryodhana thought that, "Kṛṣṇa will not fight, and He's prepared to give me soldiers," he took the soldiers, and Arjuna said: "No, I want You." So this was the division. So in the beginning He said that, "Even if I go to one side, I'll not fight." So how He could fight? Not that He was not a fighter, but because He promised that, "The side which will accept, I'll not fight." But He did not say that, "I'll not give you instruction of fighting." That is Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) : He took the chariot wheel when Bhīṣma pitāmaha was coming to Arjuna. Is that a fight? *Yes, that is another instance, that for His devotee He can break His promise also. That is Kṛṣṇa. Arjuna . . . Duryodhana complained to Bhīṣmadeva that, "My dear grandfather, because you have affection for Arjuna and others, you are not fighting properly according to your strength." So at that time Bhīṣma saw that, "This man is doubting about my sincerity." So he wanted to show his power, so he said: "All right." He knew everything—he was a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa—so he promised to Duryodhana that "Tomorrow I shall fight in such a way that either Arjuna will die or Kṛṣṇa will have to break His promise." So he fought in such a way that Arjuna was practically vanquished. At that time, Kṛṣṇa took the wheel of the chariot and came before him that, "Bhīṣma, you stop this fight, otherwise I'll kill you." So Bhīṣma said: "Yes, I am stopping my fight, because You have broken Your promise, that's all." This is the dealing between God and His devotee. There is competition of devotional service. There are so many things. But on the whole, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, the supreme authority. His instruction is final, and anyone who can understand this, his life is successful. Therefore our request is that don't make unnecessary useless interpretation. You take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and act accordingly, your life will be successful. This is our mission. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But if you cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā , we can try to explain before you what it is. Hare Kṛṣṇa. There are many svāmīs coming from India nowadays, and they are trying to establish, some of them like Gaṇapati temples or the Lord Śiva temples and so forth, and trying to confuse Westerners, especially Americans, because most of them, they do come to America. Being Indian, how we can help about this confusion? *You take Bhagavad*-gītā as standard. Who is the Hindu or Indian there who can refuse the authority of Bhagavad-gītā ? So you present them Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then it will not happen. I don't think any Indian or any Hindu can deny the authority of Bhagavad-gītā . Is there anyone? No. *Then you present them. That is, I have taken, that this is the summum bonum of Indian culture, Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā is accepted all over the world as the greatest book of knowledge, so take this standard and preach, and people will be enlightened, without misinterpretation. *Here's a svāmī, Swami Krishna*-prema Idavatakar from Gorakhpur Vinodiya from Calcutta. Swāmījī, I made this for you. Oh, thank you very much. Very nice. He has come here? Let him come. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Swāmī? I have one question which is widely discussed everywhere, that eating of meat is sin. Now we see that while for our survival, while walking, while working we kill so many things, knowingly or unknowingly, is it not sin, that? (to Svāmī guest) Aiye, aiye swami. (Come, come Swamiji.) Give him an āsana . Aiye. (Come.) Jaya . Kab aye idhar aap. Idhar hi rehte hain kya? (When did you come here? You are staying here only?) What is that question? Just try to understand. *Why is meat*-eating sin? *He said he can understand meat*-eating is sin, but when we are doing our ordinary work and normal functions, aren't we killing so many other things? So is that sin or not? *Yes. That is also sin. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that whatever you eat, bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). Anyone who is cooking something, meat or vegetables, for his own eating, he is eating only sin. It is not that the vegetarians are not sinful and the meat-eaters are sinful. Everyone is sinful if it is not cooked for Kṛṣṇa. It is not that we are propagating that you become vegetarian. We are propagating that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our propaganda. But because we are trying to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, we offer something to Kṛṣṇa. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So not patraṁ puṣpam , whatever within this group available—fruits, flowers, grains, milk—so we offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña . Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). If you do not perform yajña , then you will be bound up by the resultant action. So this is yajña , to offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña means to satisfy Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-ārādhyate . Yajña means satisfy Kṛṣṇa. But if you don't Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , then you are sinful. Not that if you become vegetarian, then you are not sinful. Not that. Because you have to eat something. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam . Either you eat vegetable or meat, you have to eat something. So somebody prefers eating animals and somebody prefers eating vegetables, but all of them have got life. Therefore you cannot kill any life. So if you eat for yourself, then you are simply eating sin. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt . But if you take Kṛṣṇa prasādam , then if there is any sin, it goes to Kṛṣṇa, you take pure prasādam . And Kṛṣṇa is apāpa-vidham . So our duty is to worship Kṛṣṇa and offer Him so many nice things—fruits, flowers, grains, milk, milk preparation. We are doing that. You are taking prasādam . So that is our business. Is it clear, your answer? Yes. *We are interested in eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam . If Kṛṣṇa says: "Give Me meat," we shall give Him. But He does not say. He says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Meat*-eating is sinful, that's a fact, amedha, tāmasika , but if you remain in the darkness of ignorance, you cannot improve your spiritual life. Tāmasika . It is described in the Bhagavad-gītā , rājasika, tāmasika, sāttvika . Therefore we should eat sāttvika , and that is also after offering to Kṛṣṇa. Then we are free from all sinful reactions. And if you want to implicate yourself in sinful activities, then you can eat whatever you like. But either you eat meat or vegetables, if it is eaten for my satisfaction of the tongue, you become implicated in sinful activities, and you have to suffer the reaction. The animal you are killing, he'll kill also you next life. Then you become bound up. I have one question. Though there is mention, in earlier times, we see also used to eat meat. When? *Aśvamedha*-yajña , all these things, and before that . . . That is now prohibited. *If you refer to śāstra , the śāstra says in Kali*-yuga these should be avoided. Śrīla Prabhupāda, I believe that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. *At that time, when there was aśvamedha*-yajña, gomedha-yajña , that was not for eating. That was to prove the strength of Vedic mantra , how the animal was put in the fire and again gave him a new life. So where is that Vedic chanter, Vedic brāhmaṇa, yajñika brāhmaṇa ? There is no such things, powerful brāhmaṇa . Therefore it is to be avoided. And that was not for eating purpose. To put one old animal in the fire and again he comes back with new life, that was the purpose. This question was raised by Chand Kazi to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu challenged him that, "What is this your religion, you are killing your father and mother?" So he referred to this, that in . . . "Formerly they were sacrificing cows in Your śāstra ." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained that sacrifice was not meant for eating. That was meant for renovating new life. That is not for eating. Another question comes. Why . . . how the caste system has crippled our society so much, was accepted by . . . *Wrongly, wrongly. Kṛṣṇa says, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So according to quality and work. That is fact. If you have got engineering qualification and if you can work as engineer, people will call you engineer- sāhīb . Is it not? So there may be a class of engineer, but that depends on quality and work. But if you have no quality, no work, how you become engineer? If you have no qualification of becoming an engineer, and you do not work, you work as a clerk, and if somebody addresses you "Engineer- sāhīb ," he is a fool, you are a fool. (laughter) So if he's not a brāhmaṇa , if you call him a brāhmaṇa , then you are fool and he is also fool. So that is going on, fool's paradise. A rascal who is not in qualification in brāhmaṇa , if he's addressed and given honor of a brāhmaṇa , he sees, "Oh, for nothing I am getting this honor, that's right, very nice." And who is giving him honor as brāhmaṇa , he's also rascal. But it is not that. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth. One must acquire the quality of a brāhmaṇa : satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42) He must be truthful, he must be self-restrained, self-controlled, full of knowledge, very simple. All these qualifications, when he acquires, then he becomes a brāhmaṇa . No, even in *Rāmāyaṇa* and *Mahābhārata* we find this kind of . . . Ekalavya was discriminated, Karṇa was discriminated . . . Because he was not accustomed to the practice of brāhmaṇa . One must be brāhmaṇa by practice. That is wanted. This is kind of discrimination though. Hmm? This is kind of discrimination though. *Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Never mind if he's born in low-grade family, but he's eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . Do you mean to say unless one becomes a first-class brāhmaṇa he can go back to home, back to Godhead? No, that is not possible. So, kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ śudhyanti (SB 2.4.18). The purificatory process . . . just like these Europeans, Americans, they are being recognized as brāhmaṇas because they are pure devotees. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He says, kṛṣṇa-bhajane nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra (CC Antya 4.67). Kṛṣṇa-bhajane , if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no such discrimination, even if you make that. Because as soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become the best Brāhmiṇ . That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He immediately becomes on the brahmam platform. And brāhmaṇa means one who knows Brahman . Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇa . So every devotee, if he's purely engaged in devotional service, he's more than brāhmaṇa . And so-called brāhmaṇa , without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is not recognized. Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syād vaiṣṇavaḥ śva-paco guruḥ (Padma Purāṇa). If a dog-eater, caṇḍāla , he has become a Vaiṣṇava, he can be guru . But a brāhmaṇa , ṣaṭ-karma-nipuṇo vipro mantra-tantra-viśāradaḥ, avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt . If he's expert, Vedic chanting and everything, mantra-tantra-viśārada , but if he's not a Vaiṣṇava, he cannot become guru . So according to our Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . that is actually according to Vedic injunction. If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you become more than a brāhmaṇa . Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and then your life is successful. And Kṛṣṇa is being distributed by Lord Kṛṣṇa. Not only He's giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema , kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ (CC Madhya 19.53). Caitanya Mahāprabhu is so kind, merciful, He's not only giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema , which is very, very rare. Aap idhar kahan tehre hain? udhar koi mandir hai? Chaliye kuch prachar to ho raha hai. Kṛṣṇa bhakti Gītā Press vishesh prachar kar rahi hai. To kaise kam chal raha hai. Teen-char mahine rahiyega idhar. Hamara jo program hai vo to aplog manenge nahi. Dekhiye na ye sab angrez log mast mundan kiya, tilak lagaya. Ye hum apko bolenge to aap bigad jayenge. Ye to hamara padatti ipehle hai mast mundan karo, tilak lagao. (Where are you staying here? Is there any temple there? Okay, at least some preaching is going on. Kṛṣṇa devotion, Gītā Press is doing special publicity. So how is the work going on? Will you stay for 3 to 4 months here? The program, what we have is not agreeable to you? Look at these foreigners, they are so happy with shaved heads, applying tilak on their forehead. If I tell you this you will get upset. This is our practice, to become shaved head and apply tilak .) Prabhupāda? Buddha was the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, right? Then why he has preached the impersonal form of God? *That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . (aside) You have got Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam here? Yes. Find out that, when Lord Buddha appeared, that verse. Sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). His propaganda was to cheat the atheist class of men. Atheist class of men, they did not recognize existence of God, so He became one of them. Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam . This atheist class, they were killing animals in the name of yajña like anything. So yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7), so He came as Buddha to stop this animal killing. His real business was stop the animal killing, that these rascals are going to hell in the name of religion, so at least stop their activities of animal killing. So therefore he started the mission, ahiṁsā paramo dharma , "Don't kill animals." But in the Vedas there is recommendation, in the yajña , as you were saying, that there is . . . animal killing is recommended. So people presented that, "Here is animal killing recommended in the yajña ." Therefore he denied the authority of Vedas . Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam . So this Buddha incarnation is cheating the atheist class of men. He said that, "Don't kill animals. If you are killed you feel pain. Why you should kill animals?" That was his mission, to stop animal killing, sinful activities. So what was your question? I just asked why he has preached impersonal form of God. Yes, because they were all godless, so he said: "There is no God, but you stop this animal killing." That was his mission. And he said, "There is no God, but whatever I say, you accept." So they agreed. But he is God. That is cheating. (laughter) Superficially he said there is no God, but he is God. Somehow or other, if people stop animal killing and accept Lord Buddha, then he becomes at least one step forward to God realization. So in a cheating process he made good to others. Yes? Translation. *"Then in the beginning of Kali*-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Añjanā, in the province of Gayā, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theists." To delude them. Read the purport. *"Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, appeared in the province of Gayā (Bihar) as the son of Añjanā, and he preached his own conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned in the Vedas . At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and animal killing was indulged in unrestrictedly. Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse psychological effects incurred by animal killing. Less intelligent men of the age of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time being they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps for proceeding further on the path of God realization. He deluded the atheists because such atheists who followed his principles did not believe in God, but they kept their absolute faith in Lord Buddha, who himself was the incarnation of God. Thus the faithless people were made to believe in God in the form of Lord Buddha. That was the mercy of Lord Buddha: he made the faithless faithful to him. Killing of animals before the advent of Lord Buddha was the most prominent feature of the society. They claimed that these were Vedic sacrifices. When the Vedas were not accepted through the authoritative disciplic succession, the casual readers of the Vedas are misled by the flowery language of that system of knowledge. In the Bhagavad*-gītā a comment has been made on such foolish scholars. The foolish scholars of Vedic literature who do not care to receive the transcendental message through the transcendental realized sources of disciplic succession are sure to be bewildered. To them, the ritualistic ceremonies are considered to be all in all. They have no depth of knowledge. *"According to the Bhagavad*-gītā , the whole system of the Vedas is to lead one gradually to the path of the Supreme Lord. The whole theme of Vedic literature is to know the Supreme Lord, the individual soul, the cosmic situation and the relations between all these items. When the relation is known, the relative function begins, and as a result of such a function the ultimate goal of life of going back to Godhead takes place in the easiest manner. Unfortunately, unauthorized scholars of the Vedas become captivated by the purificatory ceremonies only, and natural progress is checked thereby. To such bewildered persons of atheistic propensity, Lord Buddha is the emblem of theism. He therefore first of all wanted to check the habit of animal killing. The animal killers are dangerous elements on the path of going back to Godhead. There are two types of animal killers. The soul is also sometimes called the animal, or the living being. Therefore both the slaughterers of animals as well as those who have lost their identity of the soul are animal killers. Mahārāja Parīkṣit said that only the animal killer cannot relish the transcendental message of the Supreme Lord. Therefore if people are to be educated on the path of Godhead, they must be taught first and foremost to stop the process of animal killing as above mentioned. It is nonsensical to say that animal killing has nothing to do with spiritual realization. By this dangerous theory many so-called sannyāsīs have sprung up by the grace of Kali-yuga to preach animal killing under the garb of the Vedas ." Now there are so many rascals in this dress of sannyāsī , they are eating meat. That is going on. They say: "What is the wrong of eating meat? We can eat." They eat meat. Then? "The subject matter has already been discussed in the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Maulana Chand Kazi Saheb. The animal sacrifice as stated in the *Vedas* is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse." There, your question. *"Because the asuras , or the so*-called scholars of Vedic . . ." *Now you were referring to the Vedic principle, but that does not mean you have to open slaughterhouse. But these rascals are opening slaughterhouse. Do you think it is Vedic principle? Suppose it is recommended that animals should be sacrificed in the Vedic ritualistic ceremony. Does it mean that you shall open regular slaughterhouse? Just as the Christians say that Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they are right in opening big, big slaughterhouse? Maybe Lord Jesus Christ ate fish in some awkward circumstances, but that does not mean that he is recommending to open slaughterhouse. In the Ten Commandments he says: "Thou shall not kill." When there is absolute necessity, there is no other food, that is another thing, but if there is sufficient other foodstuff, why should you kill? They are not even human being, those who are animal killers. Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Those who are animal killers, they are not even human being, what to speak of religious system. Nivṛtta*-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt ka uttamaśloka . . . (SB 10.1.4). If you are animal killer, your God consciousness is finished. You'll never be able to understand what is God. Then your life is finished. This life is meant for understanding God, and if you are animal killer, then your God understanding is finished. May I ask a question, Prabhupāda? Something that I've wondered about, perhaps you could explain it briefly. I believe that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme God, so don't get me wrong, but since you mentioned Christ, was he an incarnation of Kṛṣṇa? Was Jesus Christ sent here by Kṛṣṇa from . . . No, he says that he is son of God—that is accepted. Kṛṣṇa was Christ's father then. Yes. No, Kṛṣṇa is father, and Christ is the son. I understand it now. I just wondered. I wanted to hear . . . He came, "I am son of God." Yes. And when he spoke of his father in heaven, he was speaking of Kṛṣṇa. That is. Yes. I understand. It all fits together now. Swāmījī, how could you convince then these Christian people that Christ was the son of God, or Kṛṣṇa was the . . . Christ says himself that "I am the son of God." (laughter) Many Christians, they do not . . . Many Christians also . . . there are so many Christian editions. That is another thing. We have accepted. But all these Christians, they all my students, they are coming from Christian. How they accept Kṛṣṇa as the father? Prabhupāda, did Christ return to the spiritual planets then, when he left the earth, to be with Kṛṣṇa? *He is coming from spiritual planets. He is authorized representative of Kṛṣṇa. We accept him as śaktyāveśa*-avatāra . So I was invited in some priestly meeting in Melbourne, they asked me the question, "What is your opinion of Christ?" So I said: "He's our guru ." (laughter) Actually, we accept him as our guru . He's preaching God's message, he's Vaiṣṇava. Anyone who accepts God, he's Vaiṣṇava. He was explaining kingdom of God, God. So according to time, circumstances, audience . . . now we can just imagine what kind of people he had to deal with, that his commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." Then understand how much they were accustomed to killing. So what kind of men they were? And not only that, in spite of hearing his instruction, "Thou shall not kill," they killed him first. So what kind of men they were, just imagine. He said: "Thou shall not kill," and they decided, "We shall kill you first." So this class of men he had to deal with. What would happen to the people that killed Christ on the cross? Very bad, it seems. Christ cannot be killed, but they killed themselves. So we read that Christ said: "I and my father are one," so they say therefore Christ is Kṛṣṇa, so therefore Kṛṣṇa can't be God. *"One" means in quality. And in the Vedic literature we say ahaṁ brahmāsmi . That means we are one in quality. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā . So now we are material bhūtaḥ, jīva-bhūtaḥ . When we realize that, "I am not this body. I am spirit soul, I am part and parcel of God," that is brahma-bhūtaḥ . Then bhakti begins. Then he enters into Vaikuṇṭha, after Brahman realization. So Lord Buddha's finished? No. Go on, finish it. *"The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse. Because the asuras or the so*-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward the evidence of animal killing in the Vedas , Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas . This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted in order . . ." *Just like you said that in the Vedas there is animal killing, therefore . . . (break) That was not killing. So instead of wasting his time, he said: "I don't care for your Vedas . It is my order that you stop if you love me." Here is the same . . . you cannot open slaughterhouse giving reference to the Vedas , or any sacrifice either. The Jews and everyone, the Muhammadans, they also make sacrifice. One day in the year they sacrifice. It's not that they recommend open a slaughterhouse. This is all nonsense, rākṣasa . That sacrifice also recommended in this sense, that you cannot stop animal killing. There will be a class of men who will eat meat—to give them some concession. So this is recommended, "All right, if you want to eat meat, you sacrifice." Amongst the Hindus, just like Kālī*-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā, the animal eaters, they are given this concession that, "If you want to eat meat, you just worship Goddess Kālī," and this Goddess Kālī–worshiping is recommended on the amāvasyā , the dark moon night, one day in a month, at the dead of night. So if one goes on eating meat in this way, one day in a month and dead of night, then he'll automatically give it up, "So much botheration, better give it up." Actually deny. "Yes, you can eat once in a month at the dead of night, when everyone will sleep, nobody can hear the screaming of the animal . . ." These are the recommendations. That is indirectly denying. If one is intelligent, he'll accept it, "Why so much botheration for eating meat? Better give it up." Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are so many gurus preaching Buddhism . . . We are not talking of so many gurus; *we are talking of real guru , that's all, real guru . Real guru is he who talks in disciplic succession of Kṛṣṇa. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). That is guru . The bhumi-phala guru is no guru . Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt . Anyone who is not Vaiṣṇava, he's not guru . First, He says in the Bhagavad-gītā , Bhagavān, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Find out this. He is guru who is preaching what Kṛṣṇa has taught. He's guru . Not that anyone and everyone becomes a guru . No. If you want to be cheated by such rascal guru , that is your business, but who is guru , that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . Anyone who preaches the teachings of Kṛṣṇa, he is guru . Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "You become a guru on My order." "How shall I become guru ? I have no knowledge." Oh, you don't require any knowledge to manufacture. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, you become guru ." Everyone can become. The instruction is there. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). We say the same thing. Not that "I have become Kṛṣṇa, not . . ." We say: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Then you become guru . Kṛṣṇa's instruction; *not to become Kṛṣṇa. If you want to become Kṛṣṇa, then you are not guru , you are cheater. Suppose you are working for master. If you say: "My master has fixed up this price, you cannot change it," then you are honest salesman. And if you place yourself that, "I am the master," then you are cheater. The cheater cannot be teacher. Teacher is he who simply teaches what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. He is teacher. That is not difficult. Anyone can do it. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Whomever you meet, you simply speak to him the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Then you become guru ." And if you don't say that, if you manufacture your own words, then you are cheater, you are not teacher. The so-called gurus , they're cheater. They want to become Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are cheater. And it is very easy thing if you cheat people, that "You take this mantra and you become God." Is God so easy thing to become God? But they want to be cheated. "Purchasing mantra , I shall become God." They want to be cheated. They do not think that, "Whether I can actually become God?" They do not take the weight of His existence. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . So, what is the time now? Eight o'clock, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) Prasādam . (to Swāmī) What is that book? (indistinct) . . . '67 . . . (indistinct) . . . with three disciples, Ācchā . . . . Bombay to Calcutta. Ah. (end) *Conversation on Bhagavad*-gita Play -- July 12, 1976, New York *(Comments on Bhagavad*-gita Play) *. . . of this human being, people do not know how they are kept in ignorance. And . . . (break) . . . because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, out of His causeless mercy He comes to deliver us from this ignorance. Unfortunately, they are so much engrossed by the illusory energy, they do not take advantage of the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. So therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is being propagated that these dull*-headed mūḍha—they are being described as mūḍha, dull-headed—they do not know actual interest of life. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum ( SB 7.5.31). These dull-headed conditioned souls, they do not know their real self-interest, being influenced by māyā. Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's energy, so it is her duty to punish the conditioned soul because they have decided to forget Kṛṣṇa. Still, Kṛṣṇa is so merciful, He comes personally, He authorizes His devotee, servant, to enlighten these conditioned souls. Now our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an humble attempt to raise the standard of these conditioned souls to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Those who are engaged in this business, they should personally behave as devotee, and by their example they should teach others and elevate them from this gross ignorance of materialistic life. Thank you very much. Jaya! (break) Either by your books, by the dioramas and by the dancing. Jaya. Haribol Prabhupāda! (break) So what was your opinion, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Yes, is nice. They also have a performance to show you of Satish Chandra Ghosh's play. Satish Chandra Ghosh, remember that play that we received in Māyāpur, that Nitāi had translated? "Lust and Envy." You gave it to Madhudviṣa, myself and Sudāmā, and you were saying, "Just think how to perform this." Satish Chandra? Ghosh. He's a playwrite. In Māyāpur we received two scenes that Nitāi had entire translated in Vṛndāvana—in January when we were there together. Satish Chandra or Girish Chandra? Girish Chandra. Yes. Oh, Girish Chandra. Girish Chandra Ghosh. So they've prepared one of his dramas also. We wanted to show you on Friday. Actually, we can show you Wednesday now. We'll only be leaving Thursday. Wednesday night. *It is incomplete. It is only the first two scenes, and the rest of the drama is four acts of Caitanya*-līlā. So we are waiting anxiously for the rest of the drama to come. Presently it is incomplete. So how'll you show the incomplete? In Māyāpur you were interested to see the first . . . or see the scene of the enemies—anger, lust, greed, envy—so we have worked on it. *Hmm. Kali, Kali*-yuga. Yes, Kali. So as the scenes come, we are planning to work on them in that succession. So you have already worked? Yes, on the first two scenes. They have made a very accurate portrayal of the material world. Actually, the guests who come on Sundays, they very much appreciate these performances. I've seen myself sometimes at the end of the performance, they will give a very big ovation of applause. For even one, two minutes in a row, they continue to applaud. They very much appreciate it. People are fond of seeing things enacted in theater and dance. Generally attended by Indians? No, all the guests come. No, actually this kind of performance will be more appreciated even . . . I mean the ordinary American people will very much appreciate it. Do they come? Oh, yes. Usually at least half or more of our attendance on a Sunday is from the Americans. Americans. *And here in New York is very much a theatrical city, entertainment, Broadway and . . . this theater we have here in our temple is situated in off*-Broadway. Our theater downstairs is as high a standard in its interior as any other off-Broadway theater house. *There's two classes: Broadway and off*-Broadway theater. Two different classifications. Broadway is very costly, big productions, very elaborate, and off-Broadway is more simple, but also very often there are good plays there. So this particular temple is located in an off-Broadway location. And actually it's very prestigious. We can advertise, and people will attend. They will definitely attend, and they'll even pay for the performances. We don't feel that we should charge yet, until the caliber of the performance is first class and until they have some full program. Because right now, just like this play only took about . . . the dance only took about twenty-five minutes. Altogether. Yes. Unless they have something that is at least two hours, one and half, two hours, you cannot charge for. People will definitely pay. Pay or not pay, doesn't matter. They should understand the meaning. Did you feel that the message of the *Gītā* came through? Hmm. Yes. The precedence of our work, Śrīla Prabhupāda, should definitely be that the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is clearly understood by all, is that correct? Along with it, if you, the same thing, more demonstrative, if you put some movies . . . Slides. Slide or movie, that will be more impressive. Mixed media. That is also very much appealing to the public. Our future projection plan is to work on the advent of Lord Kṛṣṇa for Janmāṣṭamī, which is about an hour production to an hour and a half. And then we were planning to work on the *Rāmāyaṇa*, if it was suiting or agreeable by Your Divine Grace. *The whole basic principle is this, that people should understand that, as I was explaining this morning, the sat and asat. So at the present moment we are living in the way that is asat. But there is another life, sat. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to raise the person from the asat platform to the sat. Under illusion they are, what is called, amock? What is called? Amock? They (laughs) have gone amock. They have gone amock. So it is a humble attempt to stop their this suicidal policy. They are practically committing suicide. They do not know what is the value of life and how they are spoiling it, this valuable life. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are trying to adjust things by the arrangement of external energy. That is not possible. Whatever adjustment they are making, so many big, big leaders, politicians, they came, Napoleon, Hitler, Gandhi, this, that. By the waves of material nature everything is driven away. In that way there is no possibility of adjustment. It is not . . . kathacaturānanam mali mali javanam. How many, caturānana. Caturānana means Brahmā. They come and go, come and go. And there is no permanent life; it is all asat. So they should come to the sat platform, that is perfect. The more you remain strong in your spiritual life, then more it will be impressed, it will act. And if it actually is not spiritual life but theatrical performance, then it will not help. Hmm. Very important. In your book you say that when it is acted by pure devotees, then it is powerful. So do your best, try your best. That is very good. Thank you, Prabhupāda. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya. Jaya. Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) *Conversation on Bhagavad*-gita Play -- July 12, 1976, New York *(Comments on Bhagavad*-gita Play) *. . . of this human being, people do not know how they are kept in ignorance. And . . . (break) . . . because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, out of His causeless mercy He comes to deliver us from this ignorance. Unfortunately, they are so much engrossed by the illusory energy, they do not take advantage of the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. So therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is being propagated that these dull*-headed mūḍha—they are being described as mūḍha, dull-headed—they do not know actual interest of life. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum ( SB 7.5.31). These dull-headed conditioned souls, they do not know their real self-interest, being influenced by māyā. Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's energy, so it is her duty to punish the conditioned soul because they have decided to forget Kṛṣṇa. Still, Kṛṣṇa is so merciful, He comes personally, He authorizes His devotee, servant, to enlighten these conditioned souls. Now our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an humble attempt to raise the standard of these conditioned souls to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Those who are engaged in this business, they should personally behave as devotee, and by their example they should teach others and elevate them from this gross ignorance of materialistic life. Thank you very much. Jaya! (break) Either by your books, by the dioramas and by the dancing. Jaya. Haribol Prabhupāda! (break) So what was your opinion, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Yes, is nice. They also have a performance to show you of Satish Chandra Ghosh's play. Satish Chandra Ghosh, remember that play that we received in Māyāpur, that Nitāi had translated? "Lust and Envy." You gave it to Madhudviṣa, myself and Sudāmā, and you were saying, "Just think how to perform this." Satish Chandra? Ghosh. He's a playwrite. In Māyāpur we received two scenes that Nitāi had entire translated in Vṛndāvana—in January when we were there together. Satish Chandra or Girish Chandra? Girish Chandra. Yes. Oh, Girish Chandra. Girish Chandra Ghosh. So they've prepared one of his dramas also. We wanted to show you on Friday. Actually, we can show you Wednesday now. We'll only be leaving Thursday. Wednesday night. *It is incomplete. It is only the first two scenes, and the rest of the drama is four acts of Caitanya*-līlā. So we are waiting anxiously for the rest of the drama to come. Presently it is incomplete. So how'll you show the incomplete? In Māyāpur you were interested to see the first . . . or see the scene of the enemies—anger, lust, greed, envy—so we have worked on it. *Hmm. Kali, Kali*-yuga. Yes, Kali. So as the scenes come, we are planning to work on them in that succession. So you have already worked? Yes, on the first two scenes. They have made a very accurate portrayal of the material world. Actually, the guests who come on Sundays, they very much appreciate these performances. I've seen myself sometimes at the end of the performance, they will give a very big ovation of applause. For even one, two minutes in a row, they continue to applaud. They very much appreciate it. People are fond of seeing things enacted in theater and dance. Generally attended by Indians? No, all the guests come. No, actually this kind of performance will be more appreciated even . . . I mean the ordinary American people will very much appreciate it. Do they come? Oh, yes. Usually at least half or more of our attendance on a Sunday is from the Americans. Americans. *And here in New York is very much a theatrical city, entertainment, Broadway and . . . this theater we have here in our temple is situated in off*-Broadway. Our theater downstairs is as high a standard in its interior as any other off-Broadway theater house. *There's two classes: Broadway and off*-Broadway theater. Two different classifications. Broadway is very costly, big productions, very elaborate, and off-Broadway is more simple, but also very often there are good plays there. So this particular temple is located in an off-Broadway location. And actually it's very prestigious. We can advertise, and people will attend. They will definitely attend, and they'll even pay for the performances. We don't feel that we should charge yet, until the caliber of the performance is first class and until they have some full program. Because right now, just like this play only took about . . . the dance only took about twenty-five minutes. Altogether. Yes. Unless they have something that is at least two hours, one and half, two hours, you cannot charge for. People will definitely pay. Pay or not pay, doesn't matter. They should understand the meaning. Did you feel that the message of the *Gītā* came through? Hmm. Yes. The precedence of our work, Śrīla Prabhupāda, should definitely be that the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is clearly understood by all, is that correct? Along with it, if you, the same thing, more demonstrative, if you put some movies . . . Slides. Slide or movie, that will be more impressive. Mixed media. That is also very much appealing to the public. Our future projection plan is to work on the advent of Lord Kṛṣṇa for Janmāṣṭamī, which is about an hour production to an hour and a half. And then we were planning to work on the *Rāmāyaṇa*, if it was suiting or agreeable by Your Divine Grace. *The whole basic principle is this, that people should understand that, as I was explaining this morning, the sat and asat. So at the present moment we are living in the way that is asat. But there is another life, sat. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to raise the person from the asat platform to the sat. Under illusion they are, what is called, amock? What is called? Amock? They (laughs) have gone amock. They have gone amock. So it is a humble attempt to stop their this suicidal policy. They are practically committing suicide. They do not know what is the value of life and how they are spoiling it, this valuable life. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are trying to adjust things by the arrangement of external energy. That is not possible. Whatever adjustment they are making, so many big, big leaders, politicians, they came, Napoleon, Hitler, Gandhi, this, that. By the waves of material nature everything is driven away. In that way there is no possibility of adjustment. It is not . . . kathacaturānanam mali mali javanam. How many, caturānana. Caturānana means Brahmā. They come and go, come and go. And there is no permanent life; it is all asat. So they should come to the sat platform, that is perfect. The more you remain strong in your spiritual life, then more it will be impressed, it will act. And if it actually is not spiritual life but theatrical performance, then it will not help. Hmm. Very important. In your book you say that when it is acted by pure devotees, then it is powerful. So do your best, try your best. That is very good. Thank you, Prabhupāda. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya. Jaya. Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- July 13, 1976, New York (Evening darsana) . . . what thought there is in bringing the temple and the farm closer together as one entity rather than two? Wherever we have got farm, we construct a temple also. (aside) Just explain. The . . . just like we have so many farming communities. Prabhupāda has mentioned that wherever our farm is . . . actually we're not farmers. No? Prabhupāda is trying to create a class of intelligent men, brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa is the head . . . First class. *. . . of the human society. So actually it's one body, one entity already, simply that with different activities that we have to perform. The example is given, mukhe bāhūru pāda*-ja , that there is the head; there's the arms; there's the belly, the abdomen; *and then there is the legs. And all of them are part of the same body. So you might say that the legs are removed from the head, or that the head is removed from the stomach, but actually it's all one body and it works together. But the head gives direction to the whole body how to act properly, so that the benefit is there to be derived. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is creating a class of brāhmaṇas , or heads of human society, who can give direction to the whole sphere of human activities so that they can become successful in human life. So in reality, we're not trying to create farmers, we're trying to create brāhmaṇas . But our farming communities are, so to speak, an example, an ideal example how human society can live: some people in the capacity of preachers, some people in the capacity of farmers, how so many activities can go on—various occupations—but all of them can be God*-centered. So in reality, these people, they're farmers, they're out there on their tractor, they can jump off their tractor at any moment and preach the highest philosophy, because actually they're brāhmaṇas . They're intelligent class of men. So it's one entity. The basic principle is that modern society is neglecting to train up, especially young men. You can see that in spite of so many universities throughout the world, these young men are being trained up how to become women-hunters and debauchers, going to the bars, going to the gambling houses, and they are supposed to be educated people. So real education is how to train up one to have ideal character, to become a brāhmaṇa . Thank you. Our means productive. There must be food production, otherwise how the society will live? That is also a requisition. Good direction required, good government required, good production required, and good worker required. (aside) You can explain that there is no understanding of spiritual life; that they are missing the opportunity of human life. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual culture, and basically speaking the human society begins from dharma , or accepting the principle of God. Dharma begins with this acceptance of the principle of God, that human beings, their activities, have to be regulated. Just like in human society there is marriage. This is according to scripture. Every scripture regulates there must be marriage. This is dharma . It regulates certain activities that should be done, certain activities that should not be done. And basically speaking this is the beginning of human civilization; *otherwise, we're simply living in a civilization of gross sense gratification which is in reality no different or no better than the society of animals. So from dharma , human society begins, and generally . . . you can see practically that dharma generally focuses . . . people are taking that dharma is for the basis of economic development. This is proven practically because in pioneer times in America, for example, people, they were simply going to churches and synagogues and temples and all kinds of things, what have you, and economic development was going on very nicely. In fact, economic development could not have gone on unless there was this principle of religion. People were very, practically speaking . . . in a pioneer situation people are very barbaric, struggle for existence—you know, you're in the country, there is no road, there's no cities—everyone is very . . . simply interested to maintain themselves. But by churches and things of this nature, people saw the need for a civilized give*-and-take way of living—economic development. Then gradually the ideas developed further and further. But in modern days we can see that people are having economic development and there's no need for God. They think, at least. In other words, people are no longer attending churches, synagogues, things of this nature, because they are making sufficient money without the need of religion. Therefore the basic principle is being missed, that human life is not simply meant for economic development. Human life—we analyze, we can say that . . . Human life is meant for making a solution of all material problems. Yes. That they do not know. That point is missing, that there is another life which is eternal, blissful life of knowledge. But they have no idea that we can eternally live without birth, death, old age and disease. There is no information, neither education. But there is a life very . . . if you get eternal life, then the tribulations of material life no longer are there: birth, death, old age and disease. But they have no idea or information because there is no intelligent man to understand that there is another life which is eternal life of bliss and knowledge. There is no information. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They are living like animals, no intelligence. So actually human life is meant for purifying our existential condition so that we may not be subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. That they are missing. They do not know, neither there is any education nor university. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to educate people on that line. It is not a sentimental religious system, it is an educational system, how one can transfer himself to eternal blissful life. (aside) Satsvarūpa is there? Yes. Let him come in. When you have come? A few hours ago. So, everything's all right? Yes. Explain to them about eternal life. Eternal life? Yes. *Eternal life is described by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad*-gītā : ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇaḥ. "Eternal" means without a beginning and without an end. So this body, this human form of life or tree form of life or animal form of life, aquatic form of life, it has a beginning and it has an end. But the person, the soul, has no beginning or end. This is described by Kṛṣṇa, that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). We've experienced in our practical lifetime that we were very tiny, youth; we had a small body, child's body: kaumāraṁ yauvanam . Then youthful body, then we're having old man, old woman's body, like this. So practically speaking, this body is constantly changing. Although Kṛṣṇa gives this example because He is trying to explain a very fine point of understanding, namely transmigration of the soul: that in reality the body that we have is changing at every moment, at every instant. But we cannot see that because our consciousness is not so sharp to pick up when there's change of body. But Kṛṣṇa explains, "You can see that you had a small body, now you have a youthful body, now you have an old man's body." Actually there is a continuum of change at every moment. So this is the changing material body, and the mind likewise is changing. But the soul, the living entity, is not changing, and this is experienced practically by the fact that in spite of so many changes of body that we had, we're still the same person. Just like we can remember when we were young children playing in the park or at the streets, and then older, older, older; going to school; older, family life; older, now retired; now like this . . . (indistinct) . . . so like this the body is changing in so many ways, but still I'm the same person. This can be practically experienced. Everyone has this understanding: different bodies, but you're still the same person. *So this spiritual identity should be the real concern. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This should be the real concern of the human society, not this temporary, changing body. The whole human society is presently geared how to satisfy the demands of this temporary body. So we can see practically that this is fruitless. Ultimately we have to give up this body. Ultimately we have to give up our connection with society, with family, with everything. So everything should have its proper place naturally, but the real focus of human life should be on the soul. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness—not only the soul, but the relationship of the soul with God. So practically speaking, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual movement. We're trying to come to the platform, as Prabhupāda has been speaking in class in the mornings about sat*-dharma : eternal religion or eternal activity of the soul. Sat means eternal. Here in this material world everything is temporary. By accident you may be born in America or in India or in Japan or in a human form or in a cat form, but it's temporary. But the soul is eternal, and there is also a place, paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ (BG 8.20), another place, beyond this material world, which is called the spiritual world. And that place is sanātana, that place is eternal, and Kṛṣṇa also is eternal. So, sat, sat-dharma or eternal occupation of the soul, eternal religion, is that the living entity should be in this place, this eternal place where there's no change of body—that you have to take a body and then give it up, and then according to your work, take another body and then give it up, revolve in the cycle of birth and death unnecessarily. Go to the sanātana atmosphere, and there the sanātana Lord is there, and there the soul is in its natural environment, and the exchange of love that takes place in this spiritual world, this is sat-dharma . So this temporary world of birth and death, this is asat . Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). It's asat , it's a temporary place. We're taking it to be real just like in a dream we take that the dream is all in all. But by chanting this mantra we will awaken from this maddening materialistic way of life which is simply binding us up more and more to this false conception of attachment for this body. Practically we know that we have to give up this body, but still, because everyone in the material world, Prabhupāda explained this morning, is just like a madman. People are attached . . . just like if you are attached to your clothes and you're thinking that if my clothes are finished, I am finished. So this is a mad proposition. You can always get another set of clothes. Similarly, we are different from this body. So to be overly attached with this body or even attached at all is a form of madness. That's a fact. We analyze this soberly. You mentioned an exchange of love in the spiritual world. Yes. Could you explain that more? *Everyone is exchanging love in this world, we see that practically, that husband and wife are exchanging love, children and parents are exchanging love, friend and friend are exchanging love. There are so many different relationships in which we exchange love. Even animals like a dog, a pet dog, is exchanging love. It's been analyzed, experiments have been done that even a plant is more productive when he knows that the person who is taking care of the plant is a friend. They speak about the green thumb. So even plants respond. They are sensitive. In a sense they are also exchanging love in a simple way. So this loving propensity is natural. The difficulty is that due to ignorance, we're exchanging love on the bodily platform, which is asat , temporary. And therefore everyone is frustrated. Everyone is frustrated. It's a false platform of love. So the real platform of love is when we come to the soul platform. Kṛṣṇa speaks about this in the Bhagavad*-gītā : *That when you come to the soul platform—it's also called brahma*-bhūta stage, or platform of the soul—then mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām : that bhakti, bhakti means transcendental love and service to God. Bhakti means, yes, exchange of love between God and the individual soul. This becomes awaking of the spiritual platform. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is gradually to purify one, because that natural loving propensity is there. Our contention, and practically we are experiencing it, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is natural way of life. It's not artificial imposition. Rather, in this present materialistic way of life, so many artificial standards and impositions have been put upon us. We can see that because culture is always changing. One year this is right to do, the next year that's right. Everything is simply mental concoction. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is eternal; *it's never changed. We have history from the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . For millions and millions of years people have been engaged in the very same process that we're following: of chanting the holy names, worshiping the Deity in the temple, taking prasādam , association with saintly persons, like this. The very same process, it hasn't changed. And the very same sentiment of love of God is being awakened naturally. So our contention is that the love is simply misdirected. It simply has to be redirected towards Kṛṣṇa, and the spiritual master, he does this. He takes our energy, our love, our intelligence, our everything and directs it towards Kṛṣṇa. And as a result, you become purified. A very natural process. Just like we have a propensity to love, so rather than waste our love on the temporary forms of the material world, because they're all perishable . . . dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api (SB 2.1.4). First of all we love the body, deha . And apatya , we love the family members, the sons; kalatra , we love our wife; ādiṣu , we like our community, nation, so many things. But all of these things, they're temporary. They won't last; they can't endure. So all of our love practically is being wasted. It's stolen. *There is an example. In a water tank you throw one stone. It becomes a circle. And the circle expands, expands, expands unless the circle comes to the shore. Similarly, our loving affair begins from personal self to family, from family to society, community, nation, international. But still, it is imperfect unless the circle reaches to the lotus feet of God. Then it is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). Here, any loving affairs, that is more or less lusty. A man or woman love each other with some desire, not without desire. That desire is sense gratification. But actually that is lust, not love. Pure love can be exchanged in relationship with God. Here there are temporary . . . a boy, a girl, or a man, a woman in relationship of love, but it breaks as soon as the lusty desire is not fulfilled. So here there is no question of love. It is all lusty desire. Real love can be achieved when it is exchanged with Kṛṣṇa, or God. Premā pum*-artho mahān (Caitanya-mañjuṣa), that is the recommendation given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is the highest achievement, when we come on the loving platform with God. Then we are satisfied. Big, big political leaders in our country like Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country so much. But the reward was that he was killed by his own men, by his countrymen. But this is not possible when the love is exchanged between God. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). A little love for God can save you from the greatest danger of life. That is real love. *And if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you can love with everyone. Just like we are spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is out of love for Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we would have sat down at home and loved Kṛṣṇa. Why you are trying to spread this love exchange to others? Because I know or we know that here in this material world, the so*-called love exchange is frustrating, and people are being frustrated. So let him love Kṛṣṇa, then we'll be successful. This is our mission. Everyone has got loving propensity. So this child has now love for his mother, or the mother has got . . . but as soon as the child will grow, the love will finish; *he will love somebody else. When he becomes young man, his love is transferred to somebody else. So here the so*-called love is not permanent, but when you love Kṛṣṇa it is permanent exchange of loving humor or mellow. So that is required. Sai . It is called sai-bhava. Sai means permanent; it will never vanquish. You'll relish loving mellows eternally. Explain this verse. The eighth verse of Caitanya Mahāprabhu Śikṣāṣṭaka . Śikṣāṣṭaka . "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord." Yes. This is Lord Caitanya. He wrote only eight verses about all this literature. Then there is files and volumes and volumes about love of God. So in this Śikṣāṣṭakam , eight verses, the last verse is translated as, He prays: "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He will always remain as such, even if He handles me roughly in His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, and He will remain my worshipable Lord unconditionally." So this is just the opposite. This is pure love, just the opposite of the . . . what Śrīla Prabhupāda is explaining that in this material world love is based on some desire that actually becomes a kind of business, that "I love you if you will respond in this way." What to speak of someone saying that "I love you, even if you act as a debauch. You don't have to be faithful," that's . . . "You can do as you like in your own way, but my declaration is that I simply want to serve You and You'll always be my worshipable object." So love should be like that, otherwise it is simply business, that I will give you the product if you give me the money. But the lover is the living being . . . *You shall not expect anything in return. That is real love. Just like this mother is loving child, expecting anything—no, not expecting any return. But she still she gives service. So that is as a little sample of pure love. But here also some . . . when the child is grown up, if the child is not obedient, the mother practically withdraws love. But in the spiritual world, unconditionally love is there. As it is explained, āśliṣya vā pāda*-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām. Marma-hatām (CC Antya 20.47): whatever You do, I don't mind that, but still I love You. That's all. That is pure love. As a mother loves the child in pure love, does that help her to also find the pure love in the spiritual world? Oh, yes. Just like Mother Yaśodā is loving Kṛṣṇa. Nanda Mahārāja is loving Kṛṣṇa. That is pure love. Śrīla Prabhupāda? This, this loving affair between mother and the son is a perverted reflection of that pure love. I think he's asking a question also that sometimes comes up, that if one loves in this material love, for example one loves a child or loves humanity, does this help to develop love of God? No. But if you love God, it helps to love the human beings. I see. It's the other way. Just like if you supply food to the stomach, it helps the eyesight, but if you supply food to the eyes, then you become blind. (laughter) Thank you. Is it important for . . . like we have our children here. As we come to this movement we're like children, it's important how we are molded, we are molded into the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as for example a child, it's important how the mother molds her activities, the child's activities, mold the child's life so that as the child grows up, acts towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He's asking a question Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't it important to mold the activities of ourselves and also the children who come into this movement; to mold them so that we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious? *Yes, that is our gurukula is there. Now these children are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (indistinct) . . . we see how they are learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are doing the same thing: offering obeisances to the Deities, taking prasādam , chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , in the same way as his father is doing. So automatically he's being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Good association, that is required. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvidaḥ (SB 3.25.25). We are keeping this house why? For association of devotees, so that automatically they become Kṛṣṇa conscious by association. The most unfortunate position is that there is no education about future life, or the perfection of life. The education is the animal education—the animal eating, we are eating. If we are eating on table, or nice place, nice chair, then we think we are advanced. But the business is the eating. Similarly sleeping. The dog is sleeping on the street—we are sleeping in good apartment, skyscraper building. They are thinking this is advancement of civilization. But actually the business is sleeping. Similarly sex life. The dog is having sex life on the street, we are having in a very nice apartment. The business is sex. In this way our modern activities are animal activities, but in a polished way. But that does not make any difference between the animal propensities and so-called civilized life. Civilized life is there when we understand what is God, our relationship with God. That is civilized life. But that is lacking. There is no such education. The education is only the same animal life in a polished way, that's all. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, could it be said that in a society where stress is placed on developing this understanding of God, people would naturally become disinclined for these so*-called modern activities of sense gratification? *That is the best qualification. If he becomes disinterested with these so*-called modern civilized activities, that is the perfection of life. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Bhakti means the more you become God conscious, you become disinterested with these material activities. And that is needed, because material activities means you are wasting our time. What is the value of animal life? It is risky. If we become like animals, then we'll become animal next birth. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). At the time of death, the mind's position will give me another body. That is nature's law. That we do not know. There is no education how the body is being transferred, how the soul is transferred to a different body. And there are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and at the time of death, according to our mentality, we have to accept by nature's law a type of body which may not be human body. That we do not know. There is no education. The people are kept in darkness about the laws of nature. That is a very risky civilization. Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes they . . . *Just like a . . . without any knowledge if we infect some disease, it will manifest in due course of time, and you'll have to suffer. Similarly, without any knowledge we are infecting the modes of material nature, and according to that modes of material nature, you have to accept a type of body which may not be very comfortable. Of course, there is no comfort when there is death. We don't want death, but there is compulsory death. There is no comfort at all. But still, the short duration of life, if we have little comfort . . . but again if we have discomfortable life, then what is the benefit of this comfort? That material laws of nature we do not know, neither any education about it. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving that education. Therefore it is not a sentimental so*-called religious movement, it is a scientific movement of real education, to solve the problems of life. I don't think human society has been educated to even understand the problem, what to speak of a cure. Problem there is, but he's a fool. Who wants to die? Why this fire brigade is running here and there? To save life. He doesn't want to die. They will say, though, that everyone has to die. They will say, that is . . . whatever they . . . foolishly whatever they may say, then let them say. Actually he doesn't like to die. Otherwise let there be fire. Why you call fire brigade? Let me die peacefully in the fire. (laughter) Nonsense, he's suffering, but still he says there is no suffering. That is nonsense. That is ignorance. He's suffering every moment, but he does not know why he's suffering. That is ignorance. Just like an animal you are taking into the slaughterhouse. He's suffering, he's screaming, but he does not know, "Why you have taken to slaughterhouse, and I am . . . (indistinct) . . .?" And that is animal life. And when there will be question of "Why I am suffering? I did not want this fire; why there is fire?" that is perfect . . . (indistinct) . . . is there any solution? Then there is human life. And if he remains like animal, and simply try to make some remedial measures . . . he's suffering, undoubtedly, but because he does not take it seriously, therefore he's animal. Animal does not take seriously why he's suffering. That is the distinction between human life and animal life. Suffering is there, but the animal does not take it seriously. But human life must take it seriously, otherwise he's an animal. There are so many sufferings. This is adhibhau . . . adhidaivika. Adhidaivika : by—you say accident—by nature, by superior power, some miserable condition is enforced upon us. Suppose if there is an earthquake, that is not in your hand, but it may cause some havoc. This is adhidaivika . Similarly, adhibhautika : suffering caused by other living entities. And adhyātmika , suffering caused by this body and mind. So suffering is always there, but we are suffering, we have been accustomed to suffer. But when the question is that, "Why I am suffering? Whether there is any remedy?" that is human life. Otherwise, the animal life. That is the distinction between animal and human life. If there is fire, and there are animals only, dogs and cats, they cannot call fire brigade. They'll die, because they do not know how to take measures. But human being immediately calls fire brigade just to try to save himself. But the suffering is there, either he's animal or human being. But the distinction is the human being tries to counteract it; the animal cannot. So if you simply become subject to this suffering without any remedial measure, then you are animal. And you are suffering and you try for the remedial measure, that is human life. This is plain thing. You cannot say there is no suffering. Suffering is there both for the animal and for the man. The man tries for the remedial measure; the animal cannot. Hmm, what is that? *Some of the modern*-day cults in America, different philosophies, they say that all of the suffering is experienced within the mind. So they try by meditation to ignore the suffering. That's all right. When there is fire you meditate. Why do you call fire brigade? If you are so great meditator, then you go on meditating. Why you call for fire brigade? Nonsense. All rascals, that's all. (laughter) Simply rascals. Mūḍha . They have been described as mūḍha . Rascals, that's all. Sometimes they say it's just a dream, and they say if you are bothering me, and you are just my dream, I don't have to worry about it. I'll have another dream and you'll go away. No, but dream is . . . it may be, but when there is fire, you call it dream, but why do you call fire brigade? When you are diseased, why you go to physician? Dream it. (laughter) (break) The major problem is birth, death and old age and disease. We do not want that. You must seek the measures. That is human life. Whether birth, death, old age, disease can be stopped? If there is any such life that there is no more birth, death, that is human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is the Vedānta philosophy: "Now the human life is meant for enquiring about these things." If you don't enquire, then you remain animal. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save the human society from this animal life, to bring him to the real human life. Animal life means there is suffering—go on suffering. Human life means there is suffering—how to get . . . how to counteract. That is human life. Suffering . . . so long you have got this body, there must be suffering. *The karmīs . . . Ṛṣabhadeva is warning that nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma : these rascals, being mad after sense gratification, they are doing everything and anything irresponsibly. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ. Pramattaḥ means mad. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma : things which you should not have done, but he's doing it. Why? Yad indriya*-prītaya : simply for sense gratification. Therefore, He advises , na sādhu ayam : this is not good. So why it is not good? Yata , he has already got a body, material body for which he's suffering, and he's again creating the circumstance by which he'll again get a material body and will suffer. Therefore, one should act very responsibly. Not like madmen. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). *Then Ṛṣabhadeva instructs, nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This body, although I have got this body, and the dog has got the body or the hog has got the body, but these bodies are not meant for being spoiled like the dogs and hogs. The hog is also whole day working to find out where is stool. So if you also work whole day and night for our sense gratification, then where is the difference between the hog's life and my life? The human life, human brain should be sober to understand what is the problem of life, why I'm subjected to so many tribulations, how to remedy, how to find out the remedy, and that requires tapasya. Tapo divyam (SB 5.5.1). In order to create that brain, it requires a little tapasya . Therefore we are recommending no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Because we are already mad by material existence, and again we are . . . if you are forced to become more and more mad by intoxication, by meat-eating, by this . . . then where is your life? Your life is finished. Because to understand these problems of life requires a little brain. So to create that brain, this little tapasya is required. He's already puzzled, and if you make him more and more puzzled by supplying him intoxication and this gross eating of meat, then he remains in the grossest platform of ignorance. That is not human activity. The brain must be little clear to understand what is the value of life, why I am suffering, if there is any remedial measure, how can I take it. That is brain. And if the brain is used only to find out where is sense gratification, where is sex, where is food, where is shelter, where is money, then, that is, that business is being done by the hogs and dogs. *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save people from this dogs' and hogs' life and to come to the real platform of understanding the value of life. They do not know it. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They do not know what is the aim of life. Simply by false hopes they are trying to adjust things with material effects. That will never be done. Durāśayā. Durāśayā means it is useless hope. It cannot be. Just like we practically see that the here in New York City, American people are very rich and intelligent, but they cannot stop this fire, which is unwanted. They cannot stop it. That is not possible. Because they are living very high, 300 feet high or more than that, you are not safe still. You are still in the same danger. Because you are living in big, big skyscraper building, it does not mean that you will not die. Death is there also—birth, death, old age, disease, the real problems of life. It does not mean that because we have advanced in so-called material civilization, you have avoided birth, death. Even big, big scientists who gave us so many big, big inventions, but still they died. They could not invent something which will protect them from death, that "At the time of death, give me this pill so that I will not die, and I'll go on giving you more scientific advance." That is not possible. What is your question? That some people think that by meditating they can somehow or another ignore . . . Meditating means this subject matter: that I don't want death; why death comes upon me? That is real meditation. So then the problems of life are more than simply those which we perceive? Yes. Otherwise, what is the meditation? Think about something seriously. That is meditation. But if you have no important serious thinking, simply some imagination, how it will help you? Excuse me, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This evening they are having one convention here, the Democratic National Convention. One of the two big political parties in the city, at one place called Madison Square Garden. And all the television and newspaper people in the whole country will be there. They're beginning at 8 o'clock this evening. So we want to send all the devotees in the temple on saṅkīrtana party there, because we feel that not only will the atmosphere become purified, but also all the television cameras and all the newspaper people will interview our devotees and take their pictures, and they will be on television all over the country, simply because . . . That is good cause. So we are requesting if all the devotees can possibly go. Yes. In that way they can all attend, if we have a big force . . . At least, let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes. That's all. I have a feeling it could be just like with the Chand Kazi. When he was . . . Lord Caitanya made a civil disobedience mood. Perhaps if we chant loudly enough . . . No, by hearing this transcendental vibration they will benefited. The actual presidential candidates will be there. Hmm? Presidential candidates, the candidates for the president of the United States, they'll be there. They'll all be there tonight. All right. Go ahead, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees pay obeisances) Give them prasādam . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Both of you were in India? No, only Mahābuddhi and Bhūgarbha, who is not here right now. Oh. So? So they were very successful. Now we're thinking we'd like to take this party all over the world if we could. Oh, yes. Do. Not . . . so far we've had our scope, the United States. We wanted to make it the whole world. Why not? Books are being appreciated even by Russia. Yes. Yes, so the scope is everywhere. What is your experience? India, Prabhupāda. It was very, very large, and I wrote you some letters, but the experience is even greater . . . (guests come in) Oh! Mr . . . come on. So Mrs. Kallman is going to become a sannyāsī . . . (indistinct) . . . gradually you have to become. Must. So if you feel uncomfortable, you can sit on this. No, no. The cushion . . . You are already accustomed I'm always accustomed. So, how are you? Very good, Prabhupāda. You are now in New York? I live here. Oh. No, you live, I know. Sometimes you go out. Much traveling, but we've come for the parade. Hmm. Down Fifth Avenue. So you often you come to the temple? Yes. That's nice. Hmm. So? Good . . . (break) Two hundreds places—universities, schools, government institutions, big ministers, temple managements for all . . . They have given all orders? *Yes, most of them gave orders to our . . . even unlike, some like United States some place, they would order all seventeen Caitanya*-caritāmṛtas , and all the volumes of Bhāgavatam out, and place an order for the rest to come, plus other books. And we lowered the price to about 45 rupees, which was . . . which was right where they can afford to pay for the volumes and immediately take them. What is the usual price? $7.95, which would be like too many . . . eighty rupees or something like that. It would be very expensive for India for one volume. So you have reduced the price? *To forty*-five rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa made it very, very reasonable for them that they can partake. That's all right. They are taking the book. That is wanted. We don't want much profit. Many, many reviewers also. Big Sanskrit . . . it's the largest in the world . . . (indistinct) . . . many professors here they also read the reviews and very much appreciate the books. All the different parts of India we visited, from north to south, east to west. They're welcome. That's nice. So make world party. Yes, we're very excited to do that. We're going to present it to the GBC . . . Hmm. . . . what our practical plan is. Take this same party everywhere—Europe and then India and then other places too. We are getting good response for our books all over the world. Constantly growing. Any new volumes coming out? We're becoming so enthused when we hear you're translating so much, because now we're getting lots of text book orders, large orders, seventy, ninety, hundred books for one class, so they . . . that's when the students are waiting for more books. They're constantly saying more and more. So, you'll get it. You'll get it. (laughs) Thank you, Prabhupāda. So, give prasādam to Mr. Kallman. Prabhupāda, could you please accept this small donation. Thank you. Give this garland. It's heavy! (laughs) We are still building the fund, left over from Gaurahari's work. So we're constantly putting more money into the fund, for your use, whatever. Yes, my funds are being utilized in printing books and expanding centers. My Book Trust is divided into two: fifty percent for the printing the books and fifty percent for expanding centers. Any way I can help, Prabhupāda. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. You're going to have a big parade. My favorite. You have got that store? Well, we're doing well wholesaling now, Prabhupāda. We sell to stores, department stores across the United States. We had to give up the store because we couldn't have, you know, timewise. Hmm. You are now making wholesale business. Yes. Yes. More volume. Wholesale business is better than retail business. My father was a wholesale cloth seller, cloth merchant. So he liked wholesale business, not retail. The wholesale is much better. It's more financial . . . A little profit, but aggregate is better. The volume is more. Yes, volume is more. In those days, he was making cloth business, he was making profit one anna or two paise per piece. Very small profit. Yes. The Marwari businessmen, they want to sell for . . . suppose one lakh of worth goods, if there is customer to pay him immediately one lakh ten rupees, he'll sell, immediately sell. He thinks, "I've got that ten rupees," that's all. Again for sale. That is their way of doing it. They are not calculating that, "I have invested one lakh of rupees, I must get at least ten percent profit." No. Not at loss. A little profit. "Never mind, give me cash." That is Marwari business. And he, when he goes to purchase from his supplier, he sees that this man is purchasing at a time one lakh , two lakh . So he gives him all credit. Works on the credit. So later on, he establishes his credit; without any payment he gets supplies. And they keep their credit. On the day of payment, they must pay. Yes, exactly. Therefore the Marwaris, they become very big businessmen. Very powerful. Yes. These Birlas, they have become so big, they have so much credit in the market that by telephone they will ask any gold merchant that "You purchase one thousand tolās of gold for me," he'll immediately purchase, because he has got credit. Sure, many years. And next moment he phones another gold merchant, "What is the price?" he says. Say one anna less . . . "I'll sell one hundred tolās ." So he'll purchase without any investment and sells immediately and makes one hundred tolās , one anna profit, some . . . (indistinct) Sure. By telephone. Very quick. In this way, they become very, very big. They know how to use this art, these Marwaris. If you are going in India, you'll see Marwaris are very quickly they will come. They know how to do business. Volume. Volume. Volume of the . . . of course, volume of business can be done which is easily selling. It's a very good market, the United States, for clothing. Clothing. Yes, constantly growing. You are purchasing from Ahmedabad? We purchase from Bombay, out of Bombay. Aḥ, Bombay. Bombay is the center. So now we are having our temple. Whenever you go, you can stay with us. Yes, we've been out there many times. Hmm, hmm. In Vṛndāvana? Vṛndāvana, Bombay. Bombay also. That's Juhu. And Māy . . . you have been in Māyāpur also? No, we haven't ever been to Māyāpur. We keep . . . Hmm, Māyāpur also. How is the school in Vṛndāvana? The school? That is still building is going on. Have they started? After the building is finished. Well, we know you must be very busy, Prabhupāda, with your writings and your books. Yes, at night. At daytime I don't find time. Hmm, hmm. But at night, I write. So, we just came to say hello. Hmm. To see you. Thank you very much. We'll see you at the parade. Give this to Mrs. Kallman. Yes. Very, very much. Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . We've been talking: if these management questions come, then it is a distraction, but also . . . even if the devotees are here and it is preachings, even then it's . . . so much time is taken. So we want to do the thing which is most pleasing. So we were thinking to arrange a little less darśana with the devotees. But outsider, if they refuse, they may be sorry. Hmm. That is . . . No outsiders be refused. Hmm? No outsiders be refused. Yes. We are arranging . . . I have arranged that each time in the morning when we go for a walk, we are taking all the devotees . . . Only for outsider you keep, say, from 5 to 6, and . . . Important men. Hah. If they are important. Let them come one by one. If they come one at a time, they will sit down. They'll not try to go away. But if they come, sit for two minutes and go away, then another comes . . . then it will be nice interview. I see. There must be management. And the devotees can come in the morning for class. That's right. Try this experiment. Anything that we can do to assist you in the translating work is the best service. Hmm, yes. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) It's mustard oil. Eh? It's mustard oil with spices, and I am not sure what the fruit is. It may be mango, I'm not sure. It's some kind of crude mango pickle. Why not take little? Do you want me to try it to see what it is? Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa! You have taken? What is that? I can't tell. No taste? It tastes like mustard oil and spices. I think it's mango. Yes, that may be it. I think it's green mango. That's all right. What do you think? Yes, it's mango. It's mango? That's nice. Tastes like pickled onions. (break) This verse that we were studying yesterday: "You are fit to propagate the cult of devotional service. Therefore gradually hear all the truths about it from Me. I shall tell you about them." This is the . . . (break) . . . to see the newest sanitary condition. Oh, yes. Such an important country. So nasty everywhere, park, street. What is there? This is not good sign. In other cities, you see so neat and clean. Washington, even that parkway, so neat and clean. Why this city is neglected? Los Angeles also, neat and clean. Which other cities we went? Detroit. Detroit is . . . Detroit is also. That park was a little dirty also. Hmm. Beer cans and . . . This is national degradation. Every state full of garbage, litters. Not only now, I was living here . . . (indistinct) . . . the last ten years. At least I have seen. One of the parents of the devotees who came the other day, they said they went to Vṛndāvana, and the gentleman who brought those pictures, photographs in Washington . . . Hmm. . . . he said he was surprised how clean Vṛndāvana was. Mean, even the poorest man's house you go in the village, you'll find everything neat and clean. At least the kitchen and eating, very neat and clean. Climatic condition is also nice. Almost all the year there is sunshine. Only during rainy season the sun is . . . that is also cooling effect. After summer season, the rainy season covering, there is enjoyable cooling. Now everywhere . . . (end) Conversation -- July 13, 1976, New York (Evening darsana) . . . what thought there is in bringing the temple and the farm closer together as one entity rather than two? Wherever we have got farm, we construct a temple also. (aside) Just explain. The . . . just like we have so many farming communities. Prabhupāda has mentioned that wherever our farm is . . . actually we're not farmers. No? Prabhupāda is trying to create a class of intelligent men, brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa is the head . . . First class. *. . . of the human society. So actually it's one body, one entity already, simply that with different activities that we have to perform. The example is given, mukhe bāhūru pāda*-ja , that there is the head; there's the arms; there's the belly, the abdomen; *and then there is the legs. And all of them are part of the same body. So you might say that the legs are removed from the head, or that the head is removed from the stomach, but actually it's all one body and it works together. But the head gives direction to the whole body how to act properly, so that the benefit is there to be derived. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is creating a class of brāhmaṇas , or heads of human society, who can give direction to the whole sphere of human activities so that they can become successful in human life. So in reality, we're not trying to create farmers, we're trying to create brāhmaṇas . But our farming communities are, so to speak, an example, an ideal example how human society can live: some people in the capacity of preachers, some people in the capacity of farmers, how so many activities can go on—various occupations—but all of them can be God*-centered. So in reality, these people, they're farmers, they're out there on their tractor, they can jump off their tractor at any moment and preach the highest philosophy, because actually they're brāhmaṇas . They're intelligent class of men. So it's one entity. The basic principle is that modern society is neglecting to train up, especially young men. You can see that in spite of so many universities throughout the world, these young men are being trained up how to become women-hunters and debauchers, going to the bars, going to the gambling houses, and they are supposed to be educated people. So real education is how to train up one to have ideal character, to become a brāhmaṇa . Thank you. Our means productive. There must be food production, otherwise how the society will live? That is also a requisition. Good direction required, good government required, good production required, and good worker required. (aside) You can explain that there is no understanding of spiritual life; that they are missing the opportunity of human life. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual culture, and basically speaking the human society begins from dharma , or accepting the principle of God. Dharma begins with this acceptance of the principle of God, that human beings, their activities, have to be regulated. Just like in human society there is marriage. This is according to scripture. Every scripture regulates there must be marriage. This is dharma . It regulates certain activities that should be done, certain activities that should not be done. And basically speaking this is the beginning of human civilization; *otherwise, we're simply living in a civilization of gross sense gratification which is in reality no different or no better than the society of animals. So from dharma , human society begins, and generally . . . you can see practically that dharma generally focuses . . . people are taking that dharma is for the basis of economic development. This is proven practically because in pioneer times in America, for example, people, they were simply going to churches and synagogues and temples and all kinds of things, what have you, and economic development was going on very nicely. In fact, economic development could not have gone on unless there was this principle of religion. People were very, practically speaking . . . in a pioneer situation people are very barbaric, struggle for existence—you know, you're in the country, there is no road, there's no cities—everyone is very . . . simply interested to maintain themselves. But by churches and things of this nature, people saw the need for a civilized give*-and-take way of living—economic development. Then gradually the ideas developed further and further. But in modern days we can see that people are having economic development and there's no need for God. They think, at least. In other words, people are no longer attending churches, synagogues, things of this nature, because they are making sufficient money without the need of religion. Therefore the basic principle is being missed, that human life is not simply meant for economic development. Human life—we analyze, we can say that . . . Human life is meant for making a solution of all material problems. Yes. That they do not know. That point is missing, that there is another life which is eternal, blissful life of knowledge. But they have no idea that we can eternally live without birth, death, old age and disease. There is no information, neither education. But there is a life very . . . if you get eternal life, then the tribulations of material life no longer are there: birth, death, old age and disease. But they have no idea or information because there is no intelligent man to understand that there is another life which is eternal life of bliss and knowledge. There is no information. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They are living like animals, no intelligence. So actually human life is meant for purifying our existential condition so that we may not be subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. That they are missing. They do not know, neither there is any education nor university. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to educate people on that line. It is not a sentimental religious system, it is an educational system, how one can transfer himself to eternal blissful life. (aside) Satsvarūpa is there? Yes. Let him come in. When you have come? A few hours ago. So, everything's all right? Yes. Explain to them about eternal life. Eternal life? Yes. *Eternal life is described by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad*-gītā : ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇaḥ. "Eternal" means without a beginning and without an end. So this body, this human form of life or tree form of life or animal form of life, aquatic form of life, it has a beginning and it has an end. But the person, the soul, has no beginning or end. This is described by Kṛṣṇa, that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). We've experienced in our practical lifetime that we were very tiny, youth; we had a small body, child's body: kaumāraṁ yauvanam . Then youthful body, then we're having old man, old woman's body, like this. So practically speaking, this body is constantly changing. Although Kṛṣṇa gives this example because He is trying to explain a very fine point of understanding, namely transmigration of the soul: that in reality the body that we have is changing at every moment, at every instant. But we cannot see that because our consciousness is not so sharp to pick up when there's change of body. But Kṛṣṇa explains, "You can see that you had a small body, now you have a youthful body, now you have an old man's body." Actually there is a continuum of change at every moment. So this is the changing material body, and the mind likewise is changing. But the soul, the living entity, is not changing, and this is experienced practically by the fact that in spite of so many changes of body that we had, we're still the same person. Just like we can remember when we were young children playing in the park or at the streets, and then older, older, older; going to school; older, family life; older, now retired; now like this . . . (indistinct) . . . so like this the body is changing in so many ways, but still I'm the same person. This can be practically experienced. Everyone has this understanding: different bodies, but you're still the same person. *So this spiritual identity should be the real concern. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This should be the real concern of the human society, not this temporary, changing body. The whole human society is presently geared how to satisfy the demands of this temporary body. So we can see practically that this is fruitless. Ultimately we have to give up this body. Ultimately we have to give up our connection with society, with family, with everything. So everything should have its proper place naturally, but the real focus of human life should be on the soul. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness—not only the soul, but the relationship of the soul with God. So practically speaking, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual movement. We're trying to come to the platform, as Prabhupāda has been speaking in class in the mornings about sat*-dharma : eternal religion or eternal activity of the soul. Sat means eternal. Here in this material world everything is temporary. By accident you may be born in America or in India or in Japan or in a human form or in a cat form, but it's temporary. But the soul is eternal, and there is also a place, paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ (BG 8.20), another place, beyond this material world, which is called the spiritual world. And that place is sanātana, that place is eternal, and Kṛṣṇa also is eternal. So, sat, sat-dharma or eternal occupation of the soul, eternal religion, is that the living entity should be in this place, this eternal place where there's no change of body—that you have to take a body and then give it up, and then according to your work, take another body and then give it up, revolve in the cycle of birth and death unnecessarily. Go to the sanātana atmosphere, and there the sanātana Lord is there, and there the soul is in its natural environment, and the exchange of love that takes place in this spiritual world, this is sat-dharma . So this temporary world of birth and death, this is asat . Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). It's asat , it's a temporary place. We're taking it to be real just like in a dream we take that the dream is all in all. But by chanting this mantra we will awaken from this maddening materialistic way of life which is simply binding us up more and more to this false conception of attachment for this body. Practically we know that we have to give up this body, but still, because everyone in the material world, Prabhupāda explained this morning, is just like a madman. People are attached . . . just like if you are attached to your clothes and you're thinking that if my clothes are finished, I am finished. So this is a mad proposition. You can always get another set of clothes. Similarly, we are different from this body. So to be overly attached with this body or even attached at all is a form of madness. That's a fact. We analyze this soberly. You mentioned an exchange of love in the spiritual world. Yes. Could you explain that more? *Everyone is exchanging love in this world, we see that practically, that husband and wife are exchanging love, children and parents are exchanging love, friend and friend are exchanging love. There are so many different relationships in which we exchange love. Even animals like a dog, a pet dog, is exchanging love. It's been analyzed, experiments have been done that even a plant is more productive when he knows that the person who is taking care of the plant is a friend. They speak about the green thumb. So even plants respond. They are sensitive. In a sense they are also exchanging love in a simple way. So this loving propensity is natural. The difficulty is that due to ignorance, we're exchanging love on the bodily platform, which is asat , temporary. And therefore everyone is frustrated. Everyone is frustrated. It's a false platform of love. So the real platform of love is when we come to the soul platform. Kṛṣṇa speaks about this in the Bhagavad*-gītā : *That when you come to the soul platform—it's also called brahma*-bhūta stage, or platform of the soul—then mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām : that bhakti, bhakti means transcendental love and service to God. Bhakti means, yes, exchange of love between God and the individual soul. This becomes awaking of the spiritual platform. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is gradually to purify one, because that natural loving propensity is there. Our contention, and practically we are experiencing it, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is natural way of life. It's not artificial imposition. Rather, in this present materialistic way of life, so many artificial standards and impositions have been put upon us. We can see that because culture is always changing. One year this is right to do, the next year that's right. Everything is simply mental concoction. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is eternal; *it's never changed. We have history from the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . For millions and millions of years people have been engaged in the very same process that we're following: of chanting the holy names, worshiping the Deity in the temple, taking prasādam , association with saintly persons, like this. The very same process, it hasn't changed. And the very same sentiment of love of God is being awakened naturally. So our contention is that the love is simply misdirected. It simply has to be redirected towards Kṛṣṇa, and the spiritual master, he does this. He takes our energy, our love, our intelligence, our everything and directs it towards Kṛṣṇa. And as a result, you become purified. A very natural process. Just like we have a propensity to love, so rather than waste our love on the temporary forms of the material world, because they're all perishable . . . dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api (SB 2.1.4). First of all we love the body, deha . And apatya , we love the family members, the sons; kalatra , we love our wife; ādiṣu , we like our community, nation, so many things. But all of these things, they're temporary. They won't last; they can't endure. So all of our love practically is being wasted. It's stolen. *There is an example. In a water tank you throw one stone. It becomes a circle. And the circle expands, expands, expands unless the circle comes to the shore. Similarly, our loving affair begins from personal self to family, from family to society, community, nation, international. But still, it is imperfect unless the circle reaches to the lotus feet of God. Then it is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). Here, any loving affairs, that is more or less lusty. A man or woman love each other with some desire, not without desire. That desire is sense gratification. But actually that is lust, not love. Pure love can be exchanged in relationship with God. Here there are temporary . . . a boy, a girl, or a man, a woman in relationship of love, but it breaks as soon as the lusty desire is not fulfilled. So here there is no question of love. It is all lusty desire. Real love can be achieved when it is exchanged with Kṛṣṇa, or God. Premā pum*-artho mahān (Caitanya-mañjuṣa), that is the recommendation given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is the highest achievement, when we come on the loving platform with God. Then we are satisfied. Big, big political leaders in our country like Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country so much. But the reward was that he was killed by his own men, by his countrymen. But this is not possible when the love is exchanged between God. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). A little love for God can save you from the greatest danger of life. That is real love. *And if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you can love with everyone. Just like we are spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is out of love for Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we would have sat down at home and loved Kṛṣṇa. Why you are trying to spread this love exchange to others? Because I know or we know that here in this material world, the so*-called love exchange is frustrating, and people are being frustrated. So let him love Kṛṣṇa, then we'll be successful. This is our mission. Everyone has got loving propensity. So this child has now love for his mother, or the mother has got . . . but as soon as the child will grow, the love will finish; *he will love somebody else. When he becomes young man, his love is transferred to somebody else. So here the so*-called love is not permanent, but when you love Kṛṣṇa it is permanent exchange of loving humor or mellow. So that is required. Sai . It is called sai-bhava. Sai means permanent; it will never vanquish. You'll relish loving mellows eternally. Explain this verse. The eighth verse of Caitanya Mahāprabhu Śikṣāṣṭaka . Śikṣāṣṭaka . "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord." Yes. This is Lord Caitanya. He wrote only eight verses about all this literature. Then there is files and volumes and volumes about love of God. So in this Śikṣāṣṭakam , eight verses, the last verse is translated as, He prays: "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He will always remain as such, even if He handles me roughly in His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, and He will remain my worshipable Lord unconditionally." So this is just the opposite. This is pure love, just the opposite of the . . . what Śrīla Prabhupāda is explaining that in this material world love is based on some desire that actually becomes a kind of business, that "I love you if you will respond in this way." What to speak of someone saying that "I love you, even if you act as a debauch. You don't have to be faithful," that's . . . "You can do as you like in your own way, but my declaration is that I simply want to serve You and You'll always be my worshipable object." So love should be like that, otherwise it is simply business, that I will give you the product if you give me the money. But the lover is the living being . . . *You shall not expect anything in return. That is real love. Just like this mother is loving child, expecting anything—no, not expecting any return. But she still she gives service. So that is as a little sample of pure love. But here also some . . . when the child is grown up, if the child is not obedient, the mother practically withdraws love. But in the spiritual world, unconditionally love is there. As it is explained, āśliṣya vā pāda*-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām. Marma-hatām (CC Antya 20.47): whatever You do, I don't mind that, but still I love You. That's all. That is pure love. As a mother loves the child in pure love, does that help her to also find the pure love in the spiritual world? Oh, yes. Just like Mother Yaśodā is loving Kṛṣṇa. Nanda Mahārāja is loving Kṛṣṇa. That is pure love. Śrīla Prabhupāda? This, this loving affair between mother and the son is a perverted reflection of that pure love. I think he's asking a question also that sometimes comes up, that if one loves in this material love, for example one loves a child or loves humanity, does this help to develop love of God? No. But if you love God, it helps to love the human beings. I see. It's the other way. Just like if you supply food to the stomach, it helps the eyesight, but if you supply food to the eyes, then you become blind. (laughter) Thank you. Is it important for . . . like we have our children here. As we come to this movement we're like children, it's important how we are molded, we are molded into the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as for example a child, it's important how the mother molds her activities, the child's activities, mold the child's life so that as the child grows up, acts towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He's asking a question Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't it important to mold the activities of ourselves and also the children who come into this movement; to mold them so that we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious? *Yes, that is our gurukula is there. Now these children are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (indistinct) . . . we see how they are learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are doing the same thing: offering obeisances to the Deities, taking prasādam , chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , in the same way as his father is doing. So automatically he's being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Good association, that is required. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvidaḥ (SB 3.25.25). We are keeping this house why? For association of devotees, so that automatically they become Kṛṣṇa conscious by association. The most unfortunate position is that there is no education about future life, or the perfection of life. The education is the animal education—the animal eating, we are eating. If we are eating on table, or nice place, nice chair, then we think we are advanced. But the business is the eating. Similarly sleeping. The dog is sleeping on the street—we are sleeping in good apartment, skyscraper building. They are thinking this is advancement of civilization. But actually the business is sleeping. Similarly sex life. The dog is having sex life on the street, we are having in a very nice apartment. The business is sex. In this way our modern activities are animal activities, but in a polished way. But that does not make any difference between the animal propensities and so-called civilized life. Civilized life is there when we understand what is God, our relationship with God. That is civilized life. But that is lacking. There is no such education. The education is only the same animal life in a polished way, that's all. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, could it be said that in a society where stress is placed on developing this understanding of God, people would naturally become disinclined for these so*-called modern activities of sense gratification? *That is the best qualification. If he becomes disinterested with these so*-called modern civilized activities, that is the perfection of life. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Bhakti means the more you become God conscious, you become disinterested with these material activities. And that is needed, because material activities means you are wasting our time. What is the value of animal life? It is risky. If we become like animals, then we'll become animal next birth. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). At the time of death, the mind's position will give me another body. That is nature's law. That we do not know. There is no education how the body is being transferred, how the soul is transferred to a different body. And there are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and at the time of death, according to our mentality, we have to accept by nature's law a type of body which may not be human body. That we do not know. There is no education. The people are kept in darkness about the laws of nature. That is a very risky civilization. Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes they . . . *Just like a . . . without any knowledge if we infect some disease, it will manifest in due course of time, and you'll have to suffer. Similarly, without any knowledge we are infecting the modes of material nature, and according to that modes of material nature, you have to accept a type of body which may not be very comfortable. Of course, there is no comfort when there is death. We don't want death, but there is compulsory death. There is no comfort at all. But still, the short duration of life, if we have little comfort . . . but again if we have discomfortable life, then what is the benefit of this comfort? That material laws of nature we do not know, neither any education about it. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving that education. Therefore it is not a sentimental so*-called religious movement, it is a scientific movement of real education, to solve the problems of life. I don't think human society has been educated to even understand the problem, what to speak of a cure. Problem there is, but he's a fool. Who wants to die? Why this fire brigade is running here and there? To save life. He doesn't want to die. They will say, though, that everyone has to die. They will say, that is . . . whatever they . . . foolishly whatever they may say, then let them say. Actually he doesn't like to die. Otherwise let there be fire. Why you call fire brigade? Let me die peacefully in the fire. (laughter) Nonsense, he's suffering, but still he says there is no suffering. That is nonsense. That is ignorance. He's suffering every moment, but he does not know why he's suffering. That is ignorance. Just like an animal you are taking into the slaughterhouse. He's suffering, he's screaming, but he does not know, "Why you have taken to slaughterhouse, and I am . . . (indistinct) . . .?" And that is animal life. And when there will be question of "Why I am suffering? I did not want this fire; why there is fire?" that is perfect . . . (indistinct) . . . is there any solution? Then there is human life. And if he remains like animal, and simply try to make some remedial measures . . . he's suffering, undoubtedly, but because he does not take it seriously, therefore he's animal. Animal does not take seriously why he's suffering. That is the distinction between human life and animal life. Suffering is there, but the animal does not take it seriously. But human life must take it seriously, otherwise he's an animal. There are so many sufferings. This is adhibhau . . . adhidaivika. Adhidaivika : by—you say accident—by nature, by superior power, some miserable condition is enforced upon us. Suppose if there is an earthquake, that is not in your hand, but it may cause some havoc. This is adhidaivika . Similarly, adhibhautika : suffering caused by other living entities. And adhyātmika , suffering caused by this body and mind. So suffering is always there, but we are suffering, we have been accustomed to suffer. But when the question is that, "Why I am suffering? Whether there is any remedy?" that is human life. Otherwise, the animal life. That is the distinction between animal and human life. If there is fire, and there are animals only, dogs and cats, they cannot call fire brigade. They'll die, because they do not know how to take measures. But human being immediately calls fire brigade just to try to save himself. But the suffering is there, either he's animal or human being. But the distinction is the human being tries to counteract it; the animal cannot. So if you simply become subject to this suffering without any remedial measure, then you are animal. And you are suffering and you try for the remedial measure, that is human life. This is plain thing. You cannot say there is no suffering. Suffering is there both for the animal and for the man. The man tries for the remedial measure; the animal cannot. Hmm, what is that? *Some of the modern*-day cults in America, different philosophies, they say that all of the suffering is experienced within the mind. So they try by meditation to ignore the suffering. That's all right. When there is fire you meditate. Why do you call fire brigade? If you are so great meditator, then you go on meditating. Why you call for fire brigade? Nonsense. All rascals, that's all. (laughter) Simply rascals. Mūḍha . They have been described as mūḍha . Rascals, that's all. Sometimes they say it's just a dream, and they say if you are bothering me, and you are just my dream, I don't have to worry about it. I'll have another dream and you'll go away. No, but dream is . . . it may be, but when there is fire, you call it dream, but why do you call fire brigade? When you are diseased, why you go to physician? Dream it. (laughter) (break) The major problem is birth, death and old age and disease. We do not want that. You must seek the measures. That is human life. Whether birth, death, old age, disease can be stopped? If there is any such life that there is no more birth, death, that is human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is the Vedānta philosophy: "Now the human life is meant for enquiring about these things." If you don't enquire, then you remain animal. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save the human society from this animal life, to bring him to the real human life. Animal life means there is suffering—go on suffering. Human life means there is suffering—how to get . . . how to counteract. That is human life. Suffering . . . so long you have got this body, there must be suffering. *The karmīs . . . Ṛṣabhadeva is warning that nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma : these rascals, being mad after sense gratification, they are doing everything and anything irresponsibly. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ. Pramattaḥ means mad. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma : things which you should not have done, but he's doing it. Why? Yad indriya*-prītaya : simply for sense gratification. Therefore, He advises , na sādhu ayam : this is not good. So why it is not good? Yata , he has already got a body, material body for which he's suffering, and he's again creating the circumstance by which he'll again get a material body and will suffer. Therefore, one should act very responsibly. Not like madmen. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). *Then Ṛṣabhadeva instructs, nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This body, although I have got this body, and the dog has got the body or the hog has got the body, but these bodies are not meant for being spoiled like the dogs and hogs. The hog is also whole day working to find out where is stool. So if you also work whole day and night for our sense gratification, then where is the difference between the hog's life and my life? The human life, human brain should be sober to understand what is the problem of life, why I'm subjected to so many tribulations, how to remedy, how to find out the remedy, and that requires tapasya. Tapo divyam (SB 5.5.1). In order to create that brain, it requires a little tapasya . Therefore we are recommending no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Because we are already mad by material existence, and again we are . . . if you are forced to become more and more mad by intoxication, by meat-eating, by this . . . then where is your life? Your life is finished. Because to understand these problems of life requires a little brain. So to create that brain, this little tapasya is required. He's already puzzled, and if you make him more and more puzzled by supplying him intoxication and this gross eating of meat, then he remains in the grossest platform of ignorance. That is not human activity. The brain must be little clear to understand what is the value of life, why I am suffering, if there is any remedial measure, how can I take it. That is brain. And if the brain is used only to find out where is sense gratification, where is sex, where is food, where is shelter, where is money, then, that is, that business is being done by the hogs and dogs. *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save people from this dogs' and hogs' life and to come to the real platform of understanding the value of life. They do not know it. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They do not know what is the aim of life. Simply by false hopes they are trying to adjust things with material effects. That will never be done. Durāśayā. Durāśayā means it is useless hope. It cannot be. Just like we practically see that the here in New York City, American people are very rich and intelligent, but they cannot stop this fire, which is unwanted. They cannot stop it. That is not possible. Because they are living very high, 300 feet high or more than that, you are not safe still. You are still in the same danger. Because you are living in big, big skyscraper building, it does not mean that you will not die. Death is there also—birth, death, old age, disease, the real problems of life. It does not mean that because we have advanced in so-called material civilization, you have avoided birth, death. Even big, big scientists who gave us so many big, big inventions, but still they died. They could not invent something which will protect them from death, that "At the time of death, give me this pill so that I will not die, and I'll go on giving you more scientific advance." That is not possible. What is your question? That some people think that by meditating they can somehow or another ignore . . . Meditating means this subject matter: that I don't want death; why death comes upon me? That is real meditation. So then the problems of life are more than simply those which we perceive? Yes. Otherwise, what is the meditation? Think about something seriously. That is meditation. But if you have no important serious thinking, simply some imagination, how it will help you? Excuse me, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This evening they are having one convention here, the Democratic National Convention. One of the two big political parties in the city, at one place called Madison Square Garden. And all the television and newspaper people in the whole country will be there. They're beginning at 8 o'clock this evening. So we want to send all the devotees in the temple on saṅkīrtana party there, because we feel that not only will the atmosphere become purified, but also all the television cameras and all the newspaper people will interview our devotees and take their pictures, and they will be on television all over the country, simply because . . . That is good cause. So we are requesting if all the devotees can possibly go. Yes. In that way they can all attend, if we have a big force . . . At least, let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes. That's all. I have a feeling it could be just like with the Chand Kazi. When he was . . . Lord Caitanya made a civil disobedience mood. Perhaps if we chant loudly enough . . . No, by hearing this transcendental vibration they will benefited. The actual presidential candidates will be there. Hmm? Presidential candidates, the candidates for the president of the United States, they'll be there. They'll all be there tonight. All right. Go ahead, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees pay obeisances) Give them prasādam . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Both of you were in India? No, only Mahābuddhi and Bhūgarbha, who is not here right now. Oh. So? So they were very successful. Now we're thinking we'd like to take this party all over the world if we could. Oh, yes. Do. Not . . . so far we've had our scope, the United States. We wanted to make it the whole world. Why not? Books are being appreciated even by Russia. Yes. Yes, so the scope is everywhere. What is your experience? India, Prabhupāda. It was very, very large, and I wrote you some letters, but the experience is even greater . . . (guests come in) Oh! Mr . . . come on. So Mrs. Kallman is going to become a sannyāsī . . . (indistinct) . . . gradually you have to become. Must. So if you feel uncomfortable, you can sit on this. No, no. The cushion . . . You are already accustomed I'm always accustomed. So, how are you? Very good, Prabhupāda. You are now in New York? I live here. Oh. No, you live, I know. Sometimes you go out. Much traveling, but we've come for the parade. Hmm. Down Fifth Avenue. So you often you come to the temple? Yes. That's nice. Hmm. So? Good . . . (break) Two hundreds places—universities, schools, government institutions, big ministers, temple managements for all . . . They have given all orders? *Yes, most of them gave orders to our . . . even unlike, some like United States some place, they would order all seventeen Caitanya*-caritāmṛtas , and all the volumes of Bhāgavatam out, and place an order for the rest to come, plus other books. And we lowered the price to about 45 rupees, which was . . . which was right where they can afford to pay for the volumes and immediately take them. What is the usual price? $7.95, which would be like too many . . . eighty rupees or something like that. It would be very expensive for India for one volume. So you have reduced the price? *To forty*-five rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa made it very, very reasonable for them that they can partake. That's all right. They are taking the book. That is wanted. We don't want much profit. Many, many reviewers also. Big Sanskrit . . . it's the largest in the world . . . (indistinct) . . . many professors here they also read the reviews and very much appreciate the books. All the different parts of India we visited, from north to south, east to west. They're welcome. That's nice. So make world party. Yes, we're very excited to do that. We're going to present it to the GBC . . . Hmm. . . . what our practical plan is. Take this same party everywhere—Europe and then India and then other places too. We are getting good response for our books all over the world. Constantly growing. Any new volumes coming out? We're becoming so enthused when we hear you're translating so much, because now we're getting lots of text book orders, large orders, seventy, ninety, hundred books for one class, so they . . . that's when the students are waiting for more books. They're constantly saying more and more. So, you'll get it. You'll get it. (laughs) Thank you, Prabhupāda. So, give prasādam to Mr. Kallman. Prabhupāda, could you please accept this small donation. Thank you. Give this garland. It's heavy! (laughs) We are still building the fund, left over from Gaurahari's work. So we're constantly putting more money into the fund, for your use, whatever. Yes, my funds are being utilized in printing books and expanding centers. My Book Trust is divided into two: fifty percent for the printing the books and fifty percent for expanding centers. Any way I can help, Prabhupāda. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. You're going to have a big parade. My favorite. You have got that store? Well, we're doing well wholesaling now, Prabhupāda. We sell to stores, department stores across the United States. We had to give up the store because we couldn't have, you know, timewise. Hmm. You are now making wholesale business. Yes. Yes. More volume. Wholesale business is better than retail business. My father was a wholesale cloth seller, cloth merchant. So he liked wholesale business, not retail. The wholesale is much better. It's more financial . . . A little profit, but aggregate is better. The volume is more. Yes, volume is more. In those days, he was making cloth business, he was making profit one anna or two paise per piece. Very small profit. Yes. The Marwari businessmen, they want to sell for . . . suppose one lakh of worth goods, if there is customer to pay him immediately one lakh ten rupees, he'll sell, immediately sell. He thinks, "I've got that ten rupees," that's all. Again for sale. That is their way of doing it. They are not calculating that, "I have invested one lakh of rupees, I must get at least ten percent profit." No. Not at loss. A little profit. "Never mind, give me cash." That is Marwari business. And he, when he goes to purchase from his supplier, he sees that this man is purchasing at a time one lakh , two lakh . So he gives him all credit. Works on the credit. So later on, he establishes his credit; without any payment he gets supplies. And they keep their credit. On the day of payment, they must pay. Yes, exactly. Therefore the Marwaris, they become very big businessmen. Very powerful. Yes. These Birlas, they have become so big, they have so much credit in the market that by telephone they will ask any gold merchant that "You purchase one thousand tolās of gold for me," he'll immediately purchase, because he has got credit. Sure, many years. And next moment he phones another gold merchant, "What is the price?" he says. Say one anna less . . . "I'll sell one hundred tolās ." So he'll purchase without any investment and sells immediately and makes one hundred tolās , one anna profit, some . . . (indistinct) Sure. By telephone. Very quick. In this way, they become very, very big. They know how to use this art, these Marwaris. If you are going in India, you'll see Marwaris are very quickly they will come. They know how to do business. Volume. Volume. Volume of the . . . of course, volume of business can be done which is easily selling. It's a very good market, the United States, for clothing. Clothing. Yes, constantly growing. You are purchasing from Ahmedabad? We purchase from Bombay, out of Bombay. Aḥ, Bombay. Bombay is the center. So now we are having our temple. Whenever you go, you can stay with us. Yes, we've been out there many times. Hmm, hmm. In Vṛndāvana? Vṛndāvana, Bombay. Bombay also. That's Juhu. And Māy . . . you have been in Māyāpur also? No, we haven't ever been to Māyāpur. We keep . . . Hmm, Māyāpur also. How is the school in Vṛndāvana? The school? That is still building is going on. Have they started? After the building is finished. Well, we know you must be very busy, Prabhupāda, with your writings and your books. Yes, at night. At daytime I don't find time. Hmm, hmm. But at night, I write. So, we just came to say hello. Hmm. To see you. Thank you very much. We'll see you at the parade. Give this to Mrs. Kallman. Yes. Very, very much. Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . We've been talking: if these management questions come, then it is a distraction, but also . . . even if the devotees are here and it is preachings, even then it's . . . so much time is taken. So we want to do the thing which is most pleasing. So we were thinking to arrange a little less darśana with the devotees. But outsider, if they refuse, they may be sorry. Hmm. That is . . . No outsiders be refused. Hmm? No outsiders be refused. Yes. We are arranging . . . I have arranged that each time in the morning when we go for a walk, we are taking all the devotees . . . Only for outsider you keep, say, from 5 to 6, and . . . Important men. Hah. If they are important. Let them come one by one. If they come one at a time, they will sit down. They'll not try to go away. But if they come, sit for two minutes and go away, then another comes . . . then it will be nice interview. I see. There must be management. And the devotees can come in the morning for class. That's right. Try this experiment. Anything that we can do to assist you in the translating work is the best service. Hmm, yes. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) It's mustard oil. Eh? It's mustard oil with spices, and I am not sure what the fruit is. It may be mango, I'm not sure. It's some kind of crude mango pickle. Why not take little? Do you want me to try it to see what it is? Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa! You have taken? What is that? I can't tell. No taste? It tastes like mustard oil and spices. I think it's mango. Yes, that may be it. I think it's green mango. That's all right. What do you think? Yes, it's mango. It's mango? That's nice. Tastes like pickled onions. (break) This verse that we were studying yesterday: "You are fit to propagate the cult of devotional service. Therefore gradually hear all the truths about it from Me. I shall tell you about them." This is the . . . (break) . . . to see the newest sanitary condition. Oh, yes. Such an important country. So nasty everywhere, park, street. What is there? This is not good sign. In other cities, you see so neat and clean. Washington, even that parkway, so neat and clean. Why this city is neglected? Los Angeles also, neat and clean. Which other cities we went? Detroit. Detroit is . . . Detroit is also. That park was a little dirty also. Hmm. Beer cans and . . . This is national degradation. Every state full of garbage, litters. Not only now, I was living here . . . (indistinct) . . . the last ten years. At least I have seen. One of the parents of the devotees who came the other day, they said they went to Vṛndāvana, and the gentleman who brought those pictures, photographs in Washington . . . Hmm. . . . he said he was surprised how clean Vṛndāvana was. Mean, even the poorest man's house you go in the village, you'll find everything neat and clean. At least the kitchen and eating, very neat and clean. Climatic condition is also nice. Almost all the year there is sunshine. Only during rainy season the sun is . . . that is also cooling effect. After summer season, the rainy season covering, there is enjoyable cooling. Now everywhere . . . (end) Conversation -- July 14, 1976, New York (Conversation with Drstadyumna's Parents) If we have any qualification, it is from you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *It is bhagavad*-bhakti which makes one qualified. Hmm. *Bhagavad*-bhakti is so nice that one becomes qualified. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now, things are becoming graver. Very soberly consider, and do the needful. It may not be broken. Always keep in mind. We are growing; There will be so many troubles, that's a fact, that it must be very gravely think also. Hmm. So the main editor is impressed? Yes. We took him to the restaurant, and he ate the prasādam; *he liked it. And he asked some very good questions also of myself and Bali*-mardana. Hmm. I think he has taken so many notes. He was . . . he knows the system of shorthand, so he was writing everything you said. Hah. Every word. Expert at everything. Yes. Journalist. Yes, he's a journalist. Unless one is expert journalist, he cannot . . . . . . be editor. Be editor. (referring to a reporter who had interviewed Śrīla Prabhupāda previously) That girl, she was not so . . . She wasn't even good for a neophyte. *I was thinking that you might talk about the thirty*-four-ounce brain. Hmm? That is the biggest controversy. If you had said that, it would have created a controversy in the room. They think that is very unscientific statement. And very unfair. No, just see. One who says unfair, all right, let me cut your brain and we'll see. (laughter) I will show you. That is the experiment—we will cut your head. He asked me about, um . . . Hmm? We should go. Prabhupāda, he's holding up the . . . Hmm? All right. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause) Two different types of paper, Śrīla Prabhupāda. For our printing the books in . . . (Dṛṣṭadyumna arrives with his parents) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Your Divine Grace. Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is my father and my mother, and this is Māyeśvara's father and mother. (laughing) So you are fortunate, you have got such devotee son. Thank you. They . . . he'll do the best service to the family by becoming devotee. By his activities you will also be delivered. Yes. God is so kind that he delivers the father and mother, his father, mother, even though they have not done any . . . it is special concession. Just like the government, if a soldier dies in the battlefield, the government takes care of the whole family. Is it not? Similarly, anyone who has become a devotee, Kṛṣṇa takes care of the whole family. That's reassuring. I think I need help, sir. (laughter) Well, we feel our son is very fortunate to be so active and involved here. Unless you are fortunate, how you can get such fortunate son? You are also fortunate. How long are you going to be in New York City? About a week more. *Uh*-huh. And where will you go from here? London. London. Are you traveling all the time? Yes, practically. *And although he's traveling constantly and giving so much advice, he's written all these books. Śrīla Prabhupāda, our parents have read your Bhagavad*-gītā . My mother especially, she makes many notes and underlines. How do you like it? I like it very . . . it gives me a great deal to think about, and, ah, some I don't quite understand, because I think you need instructions, you need someone . . . What is that point? . . . and they can explain . . . Just take the point from the book. What is that point? If you like, if there is any question you can remember now, you can ask Prabhupāda. Well, right at this moment I can't . . . I read it every, about once every month I'll pick it up and read, and . . . you can't . . . I read just a little at a time. And I try to understand. I get sometimes confused, over the Arjuna and the fighting and justifying war. That seems to conflict with your principle of peace. And that confuses me, because there's a great deal of fighting and interplay among the Deity, and yet in the end they're forgiven by Kṛṣṇa. And I wonder what did they do to deserve forgiveness. That confuses me. I claim forgiveness? She can't underst . . . our Kṛṣṇa consciousness policy is live peaceful life, so she cannot understand how Arjuna could be considered a devotee and be favored by Kṛṣṇa when he's fighting on the battlefield, when he has to fight his relatives. No. He, as devotee, he did not like to fight with his relatives. Aha. Do you remember that point? (to devotee) Find out. Hmm. There's this section here: "Sin will overcome us if we slay such aggressors. Therefore it is not proper for us to kill the sons of Dhṛtarāṣṭra and our friends. What should we gain, O Kṛṣṇa, husband of the goddess of fortune, and how could we be happy by killing our own kinsmen?" So that was the point. Hmm. It is Arjuna had that doubt himself. So, so your point, that how a devotee can be engaged . . . he was not willing to engage in fighting. Devotee is always very kind and merciful. The devotee does not like to fight. But when there is need of fighting, one has to, even though one does not like. Just like the government wants somebody to be hanged. That does not mean that government is unkind to that person, is it? When a man is ordered by the government that, "This man should be hanged," does it mean the government is unkind to him? You follow? No, I don't quite understand. In other words, if government orders a man to be hanged . . . Hmm. . . . does that mean that the government is unkind to that man? Well, it depends on what he ordered him to be hanged for. Why was he ordered? What was the reason for him being ordered? So their question is . . . So anyway, government is authority. There must be sufficient reason; otherwise why government should order some of the citizens to be hanged? Government is not partial—the government is very kind to somebody and rude to some other. That is not government's policy. But still, government orders that, "This man should be hanged." Why? Well, obviously for something he did. Hah? Yes. That is justice. The high court judge, he gives decree to somebody that, "This man must get one million dollars." And he gives another judgment that "This man should be hanged." Is the high court judge prejudiced? No, but it has some responsibility. It is justice. It is justice. When you understand this point, that this high court judge is distributing justice, then he's above criticism. For the common good. Yes. For the common good. Common good. So we should not study simply by the external feature; we must know what is behind this judgment. High court judge does not require to be unjust to somebody—otherwise his name, "Justice," is useless. So God's business is: Any government, either you take this little government or this big government, there are two things: to give protection to the honest and to give punishment to the dishonest. That is required for the matter of justice. (aside) Go on. "In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium." Purport. *"According to the Bhagavad*-gītā , a sādhu , or holy man, is a man in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. A person may appear to be irreligious, but if he has the qualifications of Kṛṣṇa consciousness wholly and fully, he is to be understood to be a sādhu . And duṣkṛtām applies to one who does not care for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Such miscreants, or duṣkṛtām , are described as foolish and the lowest of mankind, even though they may be decorated with mundane education, whereas another person who is one hundred percent engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is accepted as a sādhu , even though such a person may neither be learned nor well cultured. As far as the atheistic are concerned, it is not necessary for the Supreme Lord to appear as He is to destroy them, as He did with the demons Rāvaṇa and Kaṁsa. The Lord has many agents who are quite competent to vanquish demons. But the Lord especially descends to appease His unalloyed devotees, who are always harassed by the demoniac. The demon harasses the devotee, even though the latter may happen to be his kin. Although Prahlāda Mahārāja was the son of Hiraṇyakaśipu, he was nonetheless persecuted by his father; although Devakī, the mother of Kṛṣṇa, was the sister of Kaṁsa, she and her husband Vasudeva were persecuted only because Kṛṣṇa was to be born of them. So Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared primarily to deliver Devakī rather than to kill Kaṁsa, but both were performed simultaneously. Therefore it is said here that to deliver the devotee and vanquish the demon miscreants, the Lord appears in different incarnations. *"In Caitanya*-caritāmṛta of Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, the following verses summarize these principles of incarnation: "The avatāra , or incarnation of God, descends from the kingdom of God for material manifestation. And the particular form of the Personality of Godhead who so descends is called an incarnation, or avatāra . Such incarnations are situated in the spiritual world, the kingdom of God. When they descend to the material creation, they assume the name avatāra . "There are different kinds of avatāras , such as puruṣāvatāras . . ." Avatāra means "One who comes down." Go on. *"There are various kinds of avatāras , such as puruṣāvatāra, guṇāvatāra, līlāvatāra, śakty-āveśa avatāra, manvantara*-avatāra and yugāvatāra —all appearing on schedule all over the universe. But Lord Kṛṣṇa is the primeval Lord, the fountainhead of all avatāras . Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa descends for the specific purpose of mitigating the anxieties of the pure devotees, who are very anxious to see Him in His original Vṛndāvana pastimes. Therefore, the prime purpose of the Kṛṣṇa avatāra is to satisfy His unalloyed devotees. *"The Lord says that He incarnates Himself in every millennium. This indicates that He incarnates also in the Age of Kali. As stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , the incarnation in the age of Kali is Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who spread the worship of Kṛṣṇa by the saṅkīrtana movement (congregational chanting of the holy names) and spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout India. He predicted that this culture of saṅkīrtana would be broadcast all over the world, from town to town and village to village. Lord Caitanya, as the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, is described secretly but not directly in the confidential parts of the revealed scriptures, such as the Upaniṣads, Mahābhārata, Bhāgavatam , etc. The devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa are much attracted by the saṅkīrtana movement of Lord Caitanya. This avatāra of the Lord does not kill the miscreants, but He delivers them by the causeless mercy of the Lord." I have a question. Why was the school that you had in Texas moved to India? It is not. It is there. It is still in Texas? Yes. It's just that rather than have one central school, now we have more regional schools in various parts of the world as well as America. Oh. So the school is still in Texas, then? Oh, yes. Small scale. I see. Oh, was it originally a big school here in the United States? Right. There was one school for all the children. Oh, I see. Now we have schools on our farms. So the children of the . . . Big, big scale, the government imposes so many rules and regulations that perhaps it is impossible. Therefore we are keeping small scale. So about how many students would you have in Texas now? Yes. Students are there; they are distributed now. And Texas is also going on. Because American government, they, for schools . . . these . . . what is it called? Dormitory? Yes, they require dormitory standards. Yes, they prescribe that, "It should be like this, it should be like this . . ." This way . . . so many standards. Therefore we have reduced the scale. Not large scale, but small scale. Must be . . . (indistinct) You have been in Texas? Yes, Dallas. You have been there? No? No, I haven't been. I was just wondering how many students you have. Twenty; twenty or thirty. Something like that. We are operating a school on our farm in Pennsylvania. There is also one on the farm in West Virginia. I was wondering why . . . I know you sent people down to Madison Square Garden last night, and they're going down there again tonight, and they're up there at the Yankee Stadium . . . and in this morning's paper I thought you got a very bad press, because they lumped you in with hippies and lippies and everything else. And what is your purpose in sending devotees to rallies? Which paper? I don't know. I never saw it. Which paper is that? In the Times this morning. Oh. The Times this morning. They said that the lippies and the hippies and the Hare Kṛṣṇas were down there yelling obscenities and everything else now. We weren't yelling obscenities. No, I'm saying. But this is, this is the kind of press you got. I was wondering what you are trying to accomplish by sending the devotees . . . Well, I think that it will change tonight, because we actually had a very good interview on the TV, with one of our leading devotees. And tonight they've invited us to come back, and all three networks are going to perform . . . are going to film our chanting. Yes. Tonight? Yes. On TV tonight? What time? Yeah, well I don't know for sure what time it will be shown. On all three stations. *And it will probably be re*-broadcast. Yeah, sometimes they lump us in with all the other groups. That's what I say. You get a very bad press that way. But those who are actually sincere will understand that this is just bad press. *Mm*-hmm. I've got a copy of the paper downstairs. You'd better get the article, find out who has the byline, get a hold of them and get a little instruction . . . This is the becoming our policy now, because sometimes the press are not very fair to us. Well, I would say that is a very good example. So we'd like to write back and explain what we're actually doing. It's very difficult, because of the spiritual nature of the movement, it's very difficult for a materialist to understand what we're actually doing. So sometimes they put us contained within another movement. Well, I would like to understand. What is your purpose for going to rallies like that? We are going there to perform this saṅkīrtana , distributing free food that's offered in the temple to the Deity, because there is spiritual benefit derived from eating this food. And also . . . To the people who are there. Yes, the cookies and sweets. *Mm*-hmm. . . . and also performing this chanting, which actually, if one listens, is very beautifully done with cymbals and drums and many voices. Its like in a church choir, very beautiful chanting the names of God. Because if anyone hears these names of God it will cleanse the heart, and also this, we are giving to all the Democrat delegates and all the people there literatures that explain our movement. Well, I think you write them, and get back to the paper. Actually, in New York City I think is the most favorable place in the world for us. We just received from the police a letter wishing to reprint an article with His Divine Grace and an interview with the police chief in Chicago. *Mm*-hmm. They want to now print this in their police journal for all the New York policemen, because the comments His Divine Grace made on how the policemen could stop crime in society were very much appreciated by the police. So we are . . . They have published that? Yes, they will publish that article, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Where is that? I think once . . . I think you saw that before. They asked for permission to reprint that article. Maybe in Hawaii. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja had . . . Mostly in Chicago. It was in Back to Godhead. I think I read it. Yeah, you read the article. So the local policemen here, the editor of the policemen's paper, he has read that article, and he wants to print it now in his journal for all the policemen in New York. That's nice. And actually the policemen here, they like the devotees. They never harass us, and even though sometimes we hand out food without permit, they don't bother us. They are very friendly towards us. Is there any way that you can get on good terms with a reporter so that whenever you have publicity, you can go straight to this person, not that you are going to get . . . We have hired a public relations firm, which is . . . just like there is a Newsweek reporter coming . . . or came? Came today, and Newsday also. And he is going to cover your parade? Right. Oh, the parade will be covered by all the TV stations and newspapers. So I think by this counterpropaganda, that will minimize the effect of these little . . . Yes. You have to combat the tendency for people who lump the Moonies and the this and the that together, you know. Everybody asks me how does the Kṛṣṇa movement feel about the Moonie movement. *Yes. At the moment they're thinking we are some cult, they don't understand the spiritual value. This is not some concoction. Just like Śrīla Prabhupāda always quotes from Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . And he's not translating these books as a pastime; the purports there are very serious. If anyone reads them, then they will understand that this is very serious and that actually there is some real spiritual benefit. *You saw that book, "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is an Authorized Movement"—I just gave my parents a pamphlet—and you saw all the recommendations from all the professors, for these books. So that immediately separates us from all these other groups which have no substantial philosophy or any type of authority or historical cultural reference. They are just modern*-day creations of some . . . who knows what their motivations are, these men. *Well, there was an article in Readers Digest within the last eighteen months or so, and I'm not sure, but I believe they listed four counter*-cultures. Four groups, right. . . . and I believe that the Hare Kṛṣṇas were listed with the Moonies. Yeah, we were listed with the four. But I think as these groups drop by the way . . . We have got standing orders for our books from so many libraries. This is the one thing about our movement that is different from everyone else, that every leading professor in every top university in the world is accepting standing orders of Śrīla Prabhupāda's books, because they very much appreciate the scholarship and the learning and the wisdom and the practical value of these books. But these books are all different translations, aren't they? *Hmm. Just like this is the Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . You can also get many other versions of Bhagavad-gītā , but Śrīla Prabhupāda's called it Bhagavad-gītā As It Is because he's a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, so he can actually explain what Kṛṣṇa's intentions are in the Bhagavad-gītā when He speaks it. Whereas a person who has his own ulterior motives, he simply changes everything that Kṛṣṇa says to prepare his own philosophy. He utilizes the fame of the Bhagavad-gītā as a philosophical text so that he can become a famous philosopher or a politician or whatever, like this. But Prabhupāda's presenting the Gītā as it is. It means that if you read it, you will become a devotee, and that's practical, 'cause before Prabhupāda came there were no devotees. Six hundred editions of Bhagavad-gītā in the West, and not one single devotee ever came from any of them. But as soon as Prabhupāda started to speak what it actually was, immediately so many hundreds of devotees are coming, and like that. Also, there is a difference in the quality of these disciples. These other groups, they don't have any kind of structure or discipline, whereas Śrīla Prabhupāda has given us four regulative principles to follow, rising early in the morning . . . they . . . none of these groups have the strength to follow any type of discipline. So gradually we see they're falling by the wayside more and more. And we have practical experience when we are traveling on the buses distributing books, we are going to distribute now one million magazines in the coming six months, and about over three hundred thousand big books—just a hundred men. So the people are well receiving this literature. The other groups, when they approach, they are simply taking from the people some money. But we're giving literature, valuable literatures, at almost at cost, and people actually appreciate the difference between our presentation and others simply with materialistic motivation. Our mission we are presenting in writing, not that we are saying some superfluous that is entering this ear and going out that ear. No. Our proposition is recorded; you can talk on that basis of that recording. Even in India, one of the criticisms used to be that we weren't . . . we were established in the West but we weren't there in India, which is our roots. But just in the last three months over two hundred standing orders have been taken in all the Indian universities. So this is substantial evidence that even the Indian scholars are appreciating. Actually, we found in the last two years that the whole Indian population is becoming very appreciative of the activities of ISKCON. And they're accepting Śrīla Prabhupāda as being an actual spiritual master, not a cheater, not a fake guru . So we . . . as far as ourselves are concerned, we know that in the coming years, as Dṛṣṭadyumna was saying, gradually we'll be separated from everyone else, because everyone will understand this is actual . . . this is actual benefit here; it is not some cheating bogus religion or some cult, like that. It is practical benefit. Time is on your side. Oh, yes. *It's a long*-cycle product life. (laughter) Well, I know His Divine Grace is very busy . . . (indistinct) . . . and I hope you enjoy your stay in our country, and I'm glad that our sons are associated with you. And I hope they follow you and emulate you as they go through life. *I am much obliged to the American boys for their co*-operation. I thank you for being . . . Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Goodbye, sir. Give this garland, one garland, to your father. Oh, reminds me of when I was in India. (laughter) Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. . . . (indistinct) Hare Kṛṣṇa. I'll do it. You go down . . . Yes, go with your father. A good father. *Very nice. He's very favorable. I think all the parents, when they actually see their sons, they're becoming purified, they can understand that . . . especially someone like Dṛṣṭadyumna's father, he's such a very important . . . considered very important man in society. That Seagram's wine and whiskey company—very, very big, biggest in the world. And he also is the president of some big business organization which stretches out all over the world. He's very influential man. It's very . . . (laughs) As soon as we quote the Bhagavad*-gītā or the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , then immediately everyone has to listen. Even they may have some objection or some doubt, as soon as we quote the books, then everything is finished, our position is established. (pause) Now we have to make strong propaganda against the press. You cannot make propaganda against the press. Well, not against them, but to correct them. (end) Conversation -- July 14, 1976, New York (Conversation with Drstadyumna's Parents) If we have any qualification, it is from you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *It is bhagavad*-bhakti which makes one qualified. Hmm. *Bhagavad*-bhakti is so nice that one becomes qualified. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now, things are becoming graver. Very soberly consider, and do the needful. It may not be broken. Always keep in mind. We are growing; There will be so many troubles, that's a fact, that it must be very gravely think also. Hmm. So the main editor is impressed? Yes. We took him to the restaurant, and he ate the prasādam; *he liked it. And he asked some very good questions also of myself and Bali*-mardana. Hmm. I think he has taken so many notes. He was . . . he knows the system of shorthand, so he was writing everything you said. Hah. Every word. Expert at everything. Yes. Journalist. Yes, he's a journalist. Unless one is expert journalist, he cannot . . . . . . be editor. Be editor. (referring to a reporter who had interviewed Śrīla Prabhupāda previously) That girl, she was not so . . . She wasn't even good for a neophyte. *I was thinking that you might talk about the thirty*-four-ounce brain. Hmm? That is the biggest controversy. If you had said that, it would have created a controversy in the room. They think that is very unscientific statement. And very unfair. No, just see. One who says unfair, all right, let me cut your brain and we'll see. (laughter) I will show you. That is the experiment—we will cut your head. He asked me about, um . . . Hmm? We should go. Prabhupāda, he's holding up the . . . Hmm? All right. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause) Two different types of paper, Śrīla Prabhupāda. For our printing the books in . . . (Dṛṣṭadyumna arrives with his parents) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Your Divine Grace. Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is my father and my mother, and this is Māyeśvara's father and mother. (laughing) So you are fortunate, you have got such devotee son. Thank you. They . . . he'll do the best service to the family by becoming devotee. By his activities you will also be delivered. Yes. God is so kind that he delivers the father and mother, his father, mother, even though they have not done any . . . it is special concession. Just like the government, if a soldier dies in the battlefield, the government takes care of the whole family. Is it not? Similarly, anyone who has become a devotee, Kṛṣṇa takes care of the whole family. That's reassuring. I think I need help, sir. (laughter) Well, we feel our son is very fortunate to be so active and involved here. Unless you are fortunate, how you can get such fortunate son? You are also fortunate. How long are you going to be in New York City? About a week more. *Uh*-huh. And where will you go from here? London. London. Are you traveling all the time? Yes, practically. *And although he's traveling constantly and giving so much advice, he's written all these books. Śrīla Prabhupāda, our parents have read your Bhagavad*-gītā . My mother especially, she makes many notes and underlines. How do you like it? I like it very . . . it gives me a great deal to think about, and, ah, some I don't quite understand, because I think you need instructions, you need someone . . . What is that point? . . . and they can explain . . . Just take the point from the book. What is that point? If you like, if there is any question you can remember now, you can ask Prabhupāda. Well, right at this moment I can't . . . I read it every, about once every month I'll pick it up and read, and . . . you can't . . . I read just a little at a time. And I try to understand. I get sometimes confused, over the Arjuna and the fighting and justifying war. That seems to conflict with your principle of peace. And that confuses me, because there's a great deal of fighting and interplay among the Deity, and yet in the end they're forgiven by Kṛṣṇa. And I wonder what did they do to deserve forgiveness. That confuses me. I claim forgiveness? She can't underst . . . our Kṛṣṇa consciousness policy is live peaceful life, so she cannot understand how Arjuna could be considered a devotee and be favored by Kṛṣṇa when he's fighting on the battlefield, when he has to fight his relatives. No. He, as devotee, he did not like to fight with his relatives. Aha. Do you remember that point? (to devotee) Find out. Hmm. There's this section here: "Sin will overcome us if we slay such aggressors. Therefore it is not proper for us to kill the sons of Dhṛtarāṣṭra and our friends. What should we gain, O Kṛṣṇa, husband of the goddess of fortune, and how could we be happy by killing our own kinsmen?" So that was the point. Hmm. It is Arjuna had that doubt himself. So, so your point, that how a devotee can be engaged . . . he was not willing to engage in fighting. Devotee is always very kind and merciful. The devotee does not like to fight. But when there is need of fighting, one has to, even though one does not like. Just like the government wants somebody to be hanged. That does not mean that government is unkind to that person, is it? When a man is ordered by the government that, "This man should be hanged," does it mean the government is unkind to him? You follow? No, I don't quite understand. In other words, if government orders a man to be hanged . . . Hmm. . . . does that mean that the government is unkind to that man? Well, it depends on what he ordered him to be hanged for. Why was he ordered? What was the reason for him being ordered? So their question is . . . So anyway, government is authority. There must be sufficient reason; otherwise why government should order some of the citizens to be hanged? Government is not partial—the government is very kind to somebody and rude to some other. That is not government's policy. But still, government orders that, "This man should be hanged." Why? Well, obviously for something he did. Hah? Yes. That is justice. The high court judge, he gives decree to somebody that, "This man must get one million dollars." And he gives another judgment that "This man should be hanged." Is the high court judge prejudiced? No, but it has some responsibility. It is justice. It is justice. When you understand this point, that this high court judge is distributing justice, then he's above criticism. For the common good. Yes. For the common good. Common good. So we should not study simply by the external feature; we must know what is behind this judgment. High court judge does not require to be unjust to somebody—otherwise his name, "Justice," is useless. So God's business is: Any government, either you take this little government or this big government, there are two things: to give protection to the honest and to give punishment to the dishonest. That is required for the matter of justice. (aside) Go on. "In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium." Purport. *"According to the Bhagavad*-gītā , a sādhu , or holy man, is a man in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. A person may appear to be irreligious, but if he has the qualifications of Kṛṣṇa consciousness wholly and fully, he is to be understood to be a sādhu . And duṣkṛtām applies to one who does not care for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Such miscreants, or duṣkṛtām , are described as foolish and the lowest of mankind, even though they may be decorated with mundane education, whereas another person who is one hundred percent engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is accepted as a sādhu , even though such a person may neither be learned nor well cultured. As far as the atheistic are concerned, it is not necessary for the Supreme Lord to appear as He is to destroy them, as He did with the demons Rāvaṇa and Kaṁsa. The Lord has many agents who are quite competent to vanquish demons. But the Lord especially descends to appease His unalloyed devotees, who are always harassed by the demoniac. The demon harasses the devotee, even though the latter may happen to be his kin. Although Prahlāda Mahārāja was the son of Hiraṇyakaśipu, he was nonetheless persecuted by his father; although Devakī, the mother of Kṛṣṇa, was the sister of Kaṁsa, she and her husband Vasudeva were persecuted only because Kṛṣṇa was to be born of them. So Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared primarily to deliver Devakī rather than to kill Kaṁsa, but both were performed simultaneously. Therefore it is said here that to deliver the devotee and vanquish the demon miscreants, the Lord appears in different incarnations. *"In Caitanya*-caritāmṛta of Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, the following verses summarize these principles of incarnation: "The avatāra , or incarnation of God, descends from the kingdom of God for material manifestation. And the particular form of the Personality of Godhead who so descends is called an incarnation, or avatāra . Such incarnations are situated in the spiritual world, the kingdom of God. When they descend to the material creation, they assume the name avatāra . "There are different kinds of avatāras , such as puruṣāvatāras . . ." Avatāra means "One who comes down." Go on. *"There are various kinds of avatāras , such as puruṣāvatāra, guṇāvatāra, līlāvatāra, śakty-āveśa avatāra, manvantara*-avatāra and yugāvatāra —all appearing on schedule all over the universe. But Lord Kṛṣṇa is the primeval Lord, the fountainhead of all avatāras . Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa descends for the specific purpose of mitigating the anxieties of the pure devotees, who are very anxious to see Him in His original Vṛndāvana pastimes. Therefore, the prime purpose of the Kṛṣṇa avatāra is to satisfy His unalloyed devotees. *"The Lord says that He incarnates Himself in every millennium. This indicates that He incarnates also in the Age of Kali. As stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , the incarnation in the age of Kali is Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who spread the worship of Kṛṣṇa by the saṅkīrtana movement (congregational chanting of the holy names) and spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout India. He predicted that this culture of saṅkīrtana would be broadcast all over the world, from town to town and village to village. Lord Caitanya, as the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, is described secretly but not directly in the confidential parts of the revealed scriptures, such as the Upaniṣads, Mahābhārata, Bhāgavatam , etc. The devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa are much attracted by the saṅkīrtana movement of Lord Caitanya. This avatāra of the Lord does not kill the miscreants, but He delivers them by the causeless mercy of the Lord." I have a question. Why was the school that you had in Texas moved to India? It is not. It is there. It is still in Texas? Yes. It's just that rather than have one central school, now we have more regional schools in various parts of the world as well as America. Oh. So the school is still in Texas, then? Oh, yes. Small scale. I see. Oh, was it originally a big school here in the United States? Right. There was one school for all the children. Oh, I see. Now we have schools on our farms. So the children of the . . . Big, big scale, the government imposes so many rules and regulations that perhaps it is impossible. Therefore we are keeping small scale. So about how many students would you have in Texas now? Yes. Students are there; they are distributed now. And Texas is also going on. Because American government, they, for schools . . . these . . . what is it called? Dormitory? Yes, they require dormitory standards. Yes, they prescribe that, "It should be like this, it should be like this . . ." This way . . . so many standards. Therefore we have reduced the scale. Not large scale, but small scale. Must be . . . (indistinct) You have been in Texas? Yes, Dallas. You have been there? No? No, I haven't been. I was just wondering how many students you have. Twenty; twenty or thirty. Something like that. We are operating a school on our farm in Pennsylvania. There is also one on the farm in West Virginia. I was wondering why . . . I know you sent people down to Madison Square Garden last night, and they're going down there again tonight, and they're up there at the Yankee Stadium . . . and in this morning's paper I thought you got a very bad press, because they lumped you in with hippies and lippies and everything else. And what is your purpose in sending devotees to rallies? Which paper? I don't know. I never saw it. Which paper is that? In the Times this morning. Oh. The Times this morning. They said that the lippies and the hippies and the Hare Kṛṣṇas were down there yelling obscenities and everything else now. We weren't yelling obscenities. No, I'm saying. But this is, this is the kind of press you got. I was wondering what you are trying to accomplish by sending the devotees . . . Well, I think that it will change tonight, because we actually had a very good interview on the TV, with one of our leading devotees. And tonight they've invited us to come back, and all three networks are going to perform . . . are going to film our chanting. Yes. Tonight? Yes. On TV tonight? What time? Yeah, well I don't know for sure what time it will be shown. On all three stations. *And it will probably be re*-broadcast. Yeah, sometimes they lump us in with all the other groups. That's what I say. You get a very bad press that way. But those who are actually sincere will understand that this is just bad press. *Mm*-hmm. I've got a copy of the paper downstairs. You'd better get the article, find out who has the byline, get a hold of them and get a little instruction . . . This is the becoming our policy now, because sometimes the press are not very fair to us. Well, I would say that is a very good example. So we'd like to write back and explain what we're actually doing. It's very difficult, because of the spiritual nature of the movement, it's very difficult for a materialist to understand what we're actually doing. So sometimes they put us contained within another movement. Well, I would like to understand. What is your purpose for going to rallies like that? We are going there to perform this saṅkīrtana , distributing free food that's offered in the temple to the Deity, because there is spiritual benefit derived from eating this food. And also . . . To the people who are there. Yes, the cookies and sweets. *Mm*-hmm. . . . and also performing this chanting, which actually, if one listens, is very beautifully done with cymbals and drums and many voices. Its like in a church choir, very beautiful chanting the names of God. Because if anyone hears these names of God it will cleanse the heart, and also this, we are giving to all the Democrat delegates and all the people there literatures that explain our movement. Well, I think you write them, and get back to the paper. Actually, in New York City I think is the most favorable place in the world for us. We just received from the police a letter wishing to reprint an article with His Divine Grace and an interview with the police chief in Chicago. *Mm*-hmm. They want to now print this in their police journal for all the New York policemen, because the comments His Divine Grace made on how the policemen could stop crime in society were very much appreciated by the police. So we are . . . They have published that? Yes, they will publish that article, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Where is that? I think once . . . I think you saw that before. They asked for permission to reprint that article. Maybe in Hawaii. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja had . . . Mostly in Chicago. It was in Back to Godhead. I think I read it. Yeah, you read the article. So the local policemen here, the editor of the policemen's paper, he has read that article, and he wants to print it now in his journal for all the policemen in New York. That's nice. And actually the policemen here, they like the devotees. They never harass us, and even though sometimes we hand out food without permit, they don't bother us. They are very friendly towards us. Is there any way that you can get on good terms with a reporter so that whenever you have publicity, you can go straight to this person, not that you are going to get . . . We have hired a public relations firm, which is . . . just like there is a Newsweek reporter coming . . . or came? Came today, and Newsday also. And he is going to cover your parade? Right. Oh, the parade will be covered by all the TV stations and newspapers. So I think by this counterpropaganda, that will minimize the effect of these little . . . Yes. You have to combat the tendency for people who lump the Moonies and the this and the that together, you know. Everybody asks me how does the Kṛṣṇa movement feel about the Moonie movement. *Yes. At the moment they're thinking we are some cult, they don't understand the spiritual value. This is not some concoction. Just like Śrīla Prabhupāda always quotes from Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . And he's not translating these books as a pastime; the purports there are very serious. If anyone reads them, then they will understand that this is very serious and that actually there is some real spiritual benefit. *You saw that book, "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is an Authorized Movement"—I just gave my parents a pamphlet—and you saw all the recommendations from all the professors, for these books. So that immediately separates us from all these other groups which have no substantial philosophy or any type of authority or historical cultural reference. They are just modern*-day creations of some . . . who knows what their motivations are, these men. *Well, there was an article in Readers Digest within the last eighteen months or so, and I'm not sure, but I believe they listed four counter*-cultures. Four groups, right. . . . and I believe that the Hare Kṛṣṇas were listed with the Moonies. Yeah, we were listed with the four. But I think as these groups drop by the way . . . We have got standing orders for our books from so many libraries. This is the one thing about our movement that is different from everyone else, that every leading professor in every top university in the world is accepting standing orders of Śrīla Prabhupāda's books, because they very much appreciate the scholarship and the learning and the wisdom and the practical value of these books. But these books are all different translations, aren't they? *Hmm. Just like this is the Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . You can also get many other versions of Bhagavad-gītā , but Śrīla Prabhupāda's called it Bhagavad-gītā As It Is because he's a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, so he can actually explain what Kṛṣṇa's intentions are in the Bhagavad-gītā when He speaks it. Whereas a person who has his own ulterior motives, he simply changes everything that Kṛṣṇa says to prepare his own philosophy. He utilizes the fame of the Bhagavad-gītā as a philosophical text so that he can become a famous philosopher or a politician or whatever, like this. But Prabhupāda's presenting the Gītā as it is. It means that if you read it, you will become a devotee, and that's practical, 'cause before Prabhupāda came there were no devotees. Six hundred editions of Bhagavad-gītā in the West, and not one single devotee ever came from any of them. But as soon as Prabhupāda started to speak what it actually was, immediately so many hundreds of devotees are coming, and like that. Also, there is a difference in the quality of these disciples. These other groups, they don't have any kind of structure or discipline, whereas Śrīla Prabhupāda has given us four regulative principles to follow, rising early in the morning . . . they . . . none of these groups have the strength to follow any type of discipline. So gradually we see they're falling by the wayside more and more. And we have practical experience when we are traveling on the buses distributing books, we are going to distribute now one million magazines in the coming six months, and about over three hundred thousand big books—just a hundred men. So the people are well receiving this literature. The other groups, when they approach, they are simply taking from the people some money. But we're giving literature, valuable literatures, at almost at cost, and people actually appreciate the difference between our presentation and others simply with materialistic motivation. Our mission we are presenting in writing, not that we are saying some superfluous that is entering this ear and going out that ear. No. Our proposition is recorded; you can talk on that basis of that recording. Even in India, one of the criticisms used to be that we weren't . . . we were established in the West but we weren't there in India, which is our roots. But just in the last three months over two hundred standing orders have been taken in all the Indian universities. So this is substantial evidence that even the Indian scholars are appreciating. Actually, we found in the last two years that the whole Indian population is becoming very appreciative of the activities of ISKCON. And they're accepting Śrīla Prabhupāda as being an actual spiritual master, not a cheater, not a fake guru . So we . . . as far as ourselves are concerned, we know that in the coming years, as Dṛṣṭadyumna was saying, gradually we'll be separated from everyone else, because everyone will understand this is actual . . . this is actual benefit here; it is not some cheating bogus religion or some cult, like that. It is practical benefit. Time is on your side. Oh, yes. *It's a long*-cycle product life. (laughter) Well, I know His Divine Grace is very busy . . . (indistinct) . . . and I hope you enjoy your stay in our country, and I'm glad that our sons are associated with you. And I hope they follow you and emulate you as they go through life. *I am much obliged to the American boys for their co*-operation. I thank you for being . . . Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Goodbye, sir. Give this garland, one garland, to your father. Oh, reminds me of when I was in India. (laughter) Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. . . . (indistinct) Hare Kṛṣṇa. I'll do it. You go down . . . Yes, go with your father. A good father. *Very nice. He's very favorable. I think all the parents, when they actually see their sons, they're becoming purified, they can understand that . . . especially someone like Dṛṣṭadyumna's father, he's such a very important . . . considered very important man in society. That Seagram's wine and whiskey company—very, very big, biggest in the world. And he also is the president of some big business organization which stretches out all over the world. He's very influential man. It's very . . . (laughs) As soon as we quote the Bhagavad*-gītā or the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , then immediately everyone has to listen. Even they may have some objection or some doubt, as soon as we quote the books, then everything is finished, our position is established. (pause) Now we have to make strong propaganda against the press. You cannot make propaganda against the press. Well, not against them, but to correct them. (end) Conversation -- July 15, 1976, New York *(Radha*-Damodara bus to Gita-nagari farm) You can keep in that room? Yes, if there are any visitors that come, we'll play them. The small ones? Yes. So tomorrow we'll be traveling to the farm and then coming . . . returning Friday morning. And then I think in the afternoon, Friday afternoon, there's the Associated Press are coming, and also this lady from the magazine wanted to come. Which lady? From this India magazine? This one I just showed. The thing is, Rāmeśvara was thinking it might be too much if you did two interviews straight after each other. Hmm. Yes. So we should arrange for her to come another day. Where is that magazine? Well, they took it out. India ? You would like to . . .? I'll bring one so you can read. (break) . . . (indistinct) There is no other seat? No, we have another seat for you. Only one bus is going? (break) (on bus) . . . going about 55 miles an hour. (to devotee) If you hold this microphone next to your mouth—don't press that trigger, though—and then I'll put it onto the speaker . . . (indistinct) No, I don't think so. He's just going to read. I don't have the . . . (break) (testing microphone) Jaya , all glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! All glories to Śrī Guru, Śrī Gaurāṅga! (break) . . . what is sun. Sun is situated in one place, everyone can see. But the heat and light, it expands. The heat and light is impersonal, but the sun is personal. Now one can imagine which is important—the heat and light or the sun? Which is important? The sun is the most important. *So why do people give importance to imperson, less important? What is the meaning? The meaning is the fiery place is situated in one place, everyone can see. But the heat, ninety*-three million miles from earth, expands. Because the sunshine is so widely expanded, it does not mean that it is more important than the sun. Go on. (reading) "Lord Kṛṣṇa naturally has three energetic transformations, and these are known as the spiritual potency, the living entity potency and the illusory potency." Viṣṇu-śaktiḥ . . . (break) *"Originally Kṛṣṇa's energy is spiritual and the energy known as the living entity is also spiritual. However, there is another energy called illusion, which consists of fruitive activity. That is the Lord's third potency. For further explanation of this verse, refer to the Ādi*-līlā, Chapter 7, verse 119." "All the creative energies, which are inconceivable to a common man, exists in the Supreme Absolute Truth. These inconceivable energies act in the process of creation, maintenance and annihilation. O chief of the ascetics, just as there are two energies possessed by fire, namely heat and light, these inconceivable creative energies are the natural characteristics of the Absolute Truth." "This is a quotation from the *Viṣṇu Purāṇa*. " "O King, the kṣetrajña-śakti is the living entity. Although he has the facility to live in either the material or spiritual world, he suffers the threefold miseries of material existence because he is influenced by the avidya (nescience) potency, which covers his constitutional position." "This and the following verse are also quoted from the *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* ." . . . (indistinct) . . . tāratamyena vartate . "This living entity covered by the influence of nescience exists in different forms in the material condition. O King, he is thus proportionately freed from the influence of material energy to greater or lesser degrees." Inconceivable. That portion reads, what is that written? You read from "inconceivable"? Yes. "All the creative energies which are inconceivable to a common man exist in the Supreme Absolute Truth. These inconceivable energies act in the process of creation, maintenance and annihilation. O chief of the ascetics, just as there are two energies possessed by fire, namely heat and light, these inconceivable creative energies are the natural characteristics of the Absolute Truth." That inconceivable energy, the scientists they are trying to conceive. But they can't. That is not possible. Everyone knows that due to sunshine there are leaves in the trees, green and different colors. Everyone knows, due to the sunshine. But how this sunshine, this heat and light, these things are coming into existence? They are studying, what is called, molecules? Molecules. Yes, molecular structure. Polygons. So many things. But they cannot make it. Although they are seeing due to the sunshine these colors are there . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot explain. (break) (bus now stationary) This electrical system, this one works when you plug the bus in. Like if you are at a campground, then these go on, and these are very bright, fluorescent. And then when traveling, this system works. Therefore we have two separate light switch panels. One is for when we plug into the regular current, and the other one is on the road. The kitchen is very nice. I wanted to show you the kitchen, Prabhupāda. It's a very different kitchen than the one that you saw originally. This is a very big kitchen. Five men can stand there. Very big. Cooking, very convenient. We've improved the buses since the last time you were here. Hmm. These scientists, they will not admit that Kṛṣṇa is the original cause . . . (indistinct) . . . they are trying to invent so many things and pacifying their followers, "Wait for millions of years. We will give you all solution." That millions of years will never be fulfilled, and their suffering will never go. That they do not know. Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra (CC Madhya 20.117). This life they make researches, and when they are failure they give bluff, "Wait millions of years." In the meantime he becomes a grub. He has to wait millions and trillions of . . . that's all. Again begin transmigration from grub to plant, plant to this, that, this, that. Stand up for thousands of years as a tree. Then another tree, another thousand, millions. You wanted to wait for millions, then you wait for millions. How long can you wait for . . . in this way, by transmigration. This is their destiny. And in this very life that I am prepared to go back to home, back to Godhead, that path they will not. They will wait millions of years to see their success. This is rascaldom. Wait millions of years. They do not know how they will wait. They will wait this way, again become grub. Then gradual evolution. It will take millions and trillions of years. Then again he will come to human form of life, and again he will say: "Millions of years." This is their intelligence. Hmm? What do you say? Why wait? Kṛṣṇa fulfills everyone's desires. Yes. We should not wait. This is their intelligence, these rascal scientists. Their intelligence is they admit they will wait. But he is eternal, so eternally he must get some body to wait. And if he says that after this life everything finished, then what is the meaning of wait millions of years? If I am going to be finished, you are going to be finished after this life, then there is no question of waiting for millions of years. Who will wait? You are finished, I am finished, then who will wait? They say they're working for the children in the future, make a better future. But you are not going to wait. You are finished. And I am here, I am finished. And the children who will come, they will be finished. Who will wait? Who will wait? No one. (break) Rascals wait for millions of years. So who will wait? They think in terms of past generations. They see the progress of society from two thousand years or four thousand years, and they think of themselves as a part of that generation, that in the future, "Just see how far we have come from a hundred years." *Part of a generation, that's all right. But a generation, so*-called generation, you and me, everything will be finished. So who will wait? That is my point. What are they waiting for? Hmm? You wait or not, you will be finished. They are thinking that this is pursuit of the truth, that they are trying to theorize. Fools will follow you. And wherefrom he is coming with so much intelligence that the truth which you have discovered, somebody will come and catch up. His life, there is no continuation. Then there is no question of accepting your truth. We may not accept your truth. So many questions are there, but they are bluffing. Mūḍha nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). What is going on there? We're trying to fix this . . . (indistinct) That is the science, they will have to wait millions of . . . that is a fact. But how they will have to wait, that these rascals they do not know. They will have to wait in this lower grade of life. Can a living entity have realization of transmigration without being Kṛṣṇa conscious? Hmm? It is very easy, but you are so fool, you cannot understand it. Kṛṣṇa is giving immediately. The child is transmigrating to the boy's body. The soul is from boy's body is going to youthful body. Very plain explanation. But because the brain is so dull, they cannot understand. Under their scientific brain, they have become so rascal that the simple truth they cannot understand. This is their scientific advancement. Hmm? (pause) Why we are checked? Stopped? They are shifting some equipment for cooking. They consider, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this is the same . . . they have a sense of not changing. That's there because the soul is not changing. Everyone has a sense that they are not changing because the soul is always there. But because they have no information of the soul, sometimes they think that because I have this body as a youth, I have this body as an old man or youthful person, the point is that they consider that it's the same person, the body, it hasn't changed. They stay the same person, simply it has grown, because they have the sense of the same identity. But can it be said . . . No, no. Grown means the original form is changed. You can call it in a different name, but grown means the original form has changed. We are also changed. So can it be said that one has the same body, or is it a different body? Hmm? It is different body. It is different. Otherwise why more species coming? It is a different body. What is the energy by which one conceives that it's the same body? Is that the false ego, by which he thinks that this is . . . No, dull brain. That Darwin's theory is that. Just like we are coming from apartment to this bus. This rascal says that apartment has become bus. That is his foolishness. I am the person from that apartment, I have come to this bus, it is a fact. But he is such a rascal, he says that apartment has become bus. That is the foolishness. How the apartment can become bus? You can say the person who was in the apartment, he has come into this bus. That is a reasonable understanding. But these rascals says that apartment has become bus. The monkey has become man. Like people sometimes go into a theater and they identify themselves with a motion picture. The movie that's on a screen, they become so emotionally involved, they cry and they laugh and they become completely involved with the picture. That is feeling. That is not identity. (to another devotee) Want me to pull it while you hold it up? There are many buses standing? This is a parking area for trucks. It's a rest area. We're just shifting some cooking equipment so they can prepare something. We're going now. They just fixed that window. Hmm. A wonderful philosophy. Hmm? This is a wonderful philosophy. It never becomes boring. Never. So this wonderful philosophy you have to present. It's going to be nice and much quieter now, Prabhupāda, with this window closed. (indistinct) . . . without this way of life that you've given us, life would be intolerable in the material world for one who is thoughtful. *Yes, that is discussed (indistinct Bengali) Unless one understands this philosophy, he simply suffers. And because they are suffering, their only solace is this wine. They cannot find out any other. The more dull*-headed, this liquor is solace for the śūdra class. In India, the liquor is taken by the lowest class, not intelligent class—the washerman, the cobbler, the butcher, like that. Most less, degraded. (bus restarts) Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra-duḥkha . You continue to suffer. They are missing the point, struggling for existence. They have created this civilization, material civilization, full of factories. It is simply suffering, nothing but suffering. Maybe the factory proprietor may get some profit, but actually it is a place of suffering. Those who are working in the factory, they are simply suffering. *That is mentioned here. Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra*-duḥkha. *Saṁsāra*-duḥkha . Create suffering, one after another. Suffering. "When the living entity forgets his constitutional position as an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, he is immediately entrapped by the illusory external energy." Become a servant of . . . (indistinct) . . . we are servant of Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) We are not going to be servant of . . . (indistinct) . . . unless I give up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no scope for being . . . to become servant. Just like this Subala, he is now washing dishes in a hotel. And I heard that Madhudviṣa is now sweeping a floor in a restaurant. What do you think? (laughs) And what you were doing? Me, I was selling jewelry. I heard that you are driving car, you are a taxi driver. I tried it for a few weeks. For a couple of weeks. We have to do this. As soon as we give up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, these things are ready, "Come on." Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare. "Yes, please come." There is no other alternative. Either serve Kṛṣṇa or serve māyā , that's all. So unless one is rascal, how he will accept māyā's service? Māyā's service is not very palatable. But māyā is ready. As soon as you give up Kṛṣṇa's service . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- July 15, 1976, New York *(Radha*-Damodara bus to Gita-nagari farm) You can keep in that room? Yes, if there are any visitors that come, we'll play them. The small ones? Yes. So tomorrow we'll be traveling to the farm and then coming . . . returning Friday morning. And then I think in the afternoon, Friday afternoon, there's the Associated Press are coming, and also this lady from the magazine wanted to come. Which lady? From this India magazine? This one I just showed. The thing is, Rāmeśvara was thinking it might be too much if you did two interviews straight after each other. Hmm. Yes. So we should arrange for her to come another day. Where is that magazine? Well, they took it out. India ? You would like to . . .? I'll bring one so you can read. (break) . . . (indistinct) There is no other seat? No, we have another seat for you. Only one bus is going? (break) (on bus) . . . going about 55 miles an hour. (to devotee) If you hold this microphone next to your mouth—don't press that trigger, though—and then I'll put it onto the speaker . . . (indistinct) No, I don't think so. He's just going to read. I don't have the . . . (break) (testing microphone) Jaya , all glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! All glories to Śrī Guru, Śrī Gaurāṅga! (break) . . . what is sun. Sun is situated in one place, everyone can see. But the heat and light, it expands. The heat and light is impersonal, but the sun is personal. Now one can imagine which is important—the heat and light or the sun? Which is important? The sun is the most important. *So why do people give importance to imperson, less important? What is the meaning? The meaning is the fiery place is situated in one place, everyone can see. But the heat, ninety*-three million miles from earth, expands. Because the sunshine is so widely expanded, it does not mean that it is more important than the sun. Go on. (reading) "Lord Kṛṣṇa naturally has three energetic transformations, and these are known as the spiritual potency, the living entity potency and the illusory potency." Viṣṇu-śaktiḥ . . . (break) *"Originally Kṛṣṇa's energy is spiritual and the energy known as the living entity is also spiritual. However, there is another energy called illusion, which consists of fruitive activity. That is the Lord's third potency. For further explanation of this verse, refer to the Ādi*-līlā, Chapter 7, verse 119." "All the creative energies, which are inconceivable to a common man, exists in the Supreme Absolute Truth. These inconceivable energies act in the process of creation, maintenance and annihilation. O chief of the ascetics, just as there are two energies possessed by fire, namely heat and light, these inconceivable creative energies are the natural characteristics of the Absolute Truth." "This is a quotation from the *Viṣṇu Purāṇa*. " "O King, the kṣetrajña-śakti is the living entity. Although he has the facility to live in either the material or spiritual world, he suffers the threefold miseries of material existence because he is influenced by the avidya (nescience) potency, which covers his constitutional position." "This and the following verse are also quoted from the *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* ." . . . (indistinct) . . . tāratamyena vartate . "This living entity covered by the influence of nescience exists in different forms in the material condition. O King, he is thus proportionately freed from the influence of material energy to greater or lesser degrees." Inconceivable. That portion reads, what is that written? You read from "inconceivable"? Yes. "All the creative energies which are inconceivable to a common man exist in the Supreme Absolute Truth. These inconceivable energies act in the process of creation, maintenance and annihilation. O chief of the ascetics, just as there are two energies possessed by fire, namely heat and light, these inconceivable creative energies are the natural characteristics of the Absolute Truth." That inconceivable energy, the scientists they are trying to conceive. But they can't. That is not possible. Everyone knows that due to sunshine there are leaves in the trees, green and different colors. Everyone knows, due to the sunshine. But how this sunshine, this heat and light, these things are coming into existence? They are studying, what is called, molecules? Molecules. Yes, molecular structure. Polygons. So many things. But they cannot make it. Although they are seeing due to the sunshine these colors are there . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot explain. (break) (bus now stationary) This electrical system, this one works when you plug the bus in. Like if you are at a campground, then these go on, and these are very bright, fluorescent. And then when traveling, this system works. Therefore we have two separate light switch panels. One is for when we plug into the regular current, and the other one is on the road. The kitchen is very nice. I wanted to show you the kitchen, Prabhupāda. It's a very different kitchen than the one that you saw originally. This is a very big kitchen. Five men can stand there. Very big. Cooking, very convenient. We've improved the buses since the last time you were here. Hmm. These scientists, they will not admit that Kṛṣṇa is the original cause . . . (indistinct) . . . they are trying to invent so many things and pacifying their followers, "Wait for millions of years. We will give you all solution." That millions of years will never be fulfilled, and their suffering will never go. That they do not know. Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra (CC Madhya 20.117). This life they make researches, and when they are failure they give bluff, "Wait millions of years." In the meantime he becomes a grub. He has to wait millions and trillions of . . . that's all. Again begin transmigration from grub to plant, plant to this, that, this, that. Stand up for thousands of years as a tree. Then another tree, another thousand, millions. You wanted to wait for millions, then you wait for millions. How long can you wait for . . . in this way, by transmigration. This is their destiny. And in this very life that I am prepared to go back to home, back to Godhead, that path they will not. They will wait millions of years to see their success. This is rascaldom. Wait millions of years. They do not know how they will wait. They will wait this way, again become grub. Then gradual evolution. It will take millions and trillions of years. Then again he will come to human form of life, and again he will say: "Millions of years." This is their intelligence. Hmm? What do you say? Why wait? Kṛṣṇa fulfills everyone's desires. Yes. We should not wait. This is their intelligence, these rascal scientists. Their intelligence is they admit they will wait. But he is eternal, so eternally he must get some body to wait. And if he says that after this life everything finished, then what is the meaning of wait millions of years? If I am going to be finished, you are going to be finished after this life, then there is no question of waiting for millions of years. Who will wait? You are finished, I am finished, then who will wait? They say they're working for the children in the future, make a better future. But you are not going to wait. You are finished. And I am here, I am finished. And the children who will come, they will be finished. Who will wait? Who will wait? No one. (break) Rascals wait for millions of years. So who will wait? They think in terms of past generations. They see the progress of society from two thousand years or four thousand years, and they think of themselves as a part of that generation, that in the future, "Just see how far we have come from a hundred years." *Part of a generation, that's all right. But a generation, so*-called generation, you and me, everything will be finished. So who will wait? That is my point. What are they waiting for? Hmm? You wait or not, you will be finished. They are thinking that this is pursuit of the truth, that they are trying to theorize. Fools will follow you. And wherefrom he is coming with so much intelligence that the truth which you have discovered, somebody will come and catch up. His life, there is no continuation. Then there is no question of accepting your truth. We may not accept your truth. So many questions are there, but they are bluffing. Mūḍha nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). What is going on there? We're trying to fix this . . . (indistinct) That is the science, they will have to wait millions of . . . that is a fact. But how they will have to wait, that these rascals they do not know. They will have to wait in this lower grade of life. Can a living entity have realization of transmigration without being Kṛṣṇa conscious? Hmm? It is very easy, but you are so fool, you cannot understand it. Kṛṣṇa is giving immediately. The child is transmigrating to the boy's body. The soul is from boy's body is going to youthful body. Very plain explanation. But because the brain is so dull, they cannot understand. Under their scientific brain, they have become so rascal that the simple truth they cannot understand. This is their scientific advancement. Hmm? (pause) Why we are checked? Stopped? They are shifting some equipment for cooking. They consider, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this is the same . . . they have a sense of not changing. That's there because the soul is not changing. Everyone has a sense that they are not changing because the soul is always there. But because they have no information of the soul, sometimes they think that because I have this body as a youth, I have this body as an old man or youthful person, the point is that they consider that it's the same person, the body, it hasn't changed. They stay the same person, simply it has grown, because they have the sense of the same identity. But can it be said . . . No, no. Grown means the original form is changed. You can call it in a different name, but grown means the original form has changed. We are also changed. So can it be said that one has the same body, or is it a different body? Hmm? It is different body. It is different. Otherwise why more species coming? It is a different body. What is the energy by which one conceives that it's the same body? Is that the false ego, by which he thinks that this is . . . No, dull brain. That Darwin's theory is that. Just like we are coming from apartment to this bus. This rascal says that apartment has become bus. That is his foolishness. I am the person from that apartment, I have come to this bus, it is a fact. But he is such a rascal, he says that apartment has become bus. That is the foolishness. How the apartment can become bus? You can say the person who was in the apartment, he has come into this bus. That is a reasonable understanding. But these rascals says that apartment has become bus. The monkey has become man. Like people sometimes go into a theater and they identify themselves with a motion picture. The movie that's on a screen, they become so emotionally involved, they cry and they laugh and they become completely involved with the picture. That is feeling. That is not identity. (to another devotee) Want me to pull it while you hold it up? There are many buses standing? This is a parking area for trucks. It's a rest area. We're just shifting some cooking equipment so they can prepare something. We're going now. They just fixed that window. Hmm. A wonderful philosophy. Hmm? This is a wonderful philosophy. It never becomes boring. Never. So this wonderful philosophy you have to present. It's going to be nice and much quieter now, Prabhupāda, with this window closed. (indistinct) . . . without this way of life that you've given us, life would be intolerable in the material world for one who is thoughtful. *Yes, that is discussed (indistinct Bengali) Unless one understands this philosophy, he simply suffers. And because they are suffering, their only solace is this wine. They cannot find out any other. The more dull*-headed, this liquor is solace for the śūdra class. In India, the liquor is taken by the lowest class, not intelligent class—the washerman, the cobbler, the butcher, like that. Most less, degraded. (bus restarts) Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra-duḥkha . You continue to suffer. They are missing the point, struggling for existence. They have created this civilization, material civilization, full of factories. It is simply suffering, nothing but suffering. Maybe the factory proprietor may get some profit, but actually it is a place of suffering. Those who are working in the factory, they are simply suffering. *That is mentioned here. Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra*-duḥkha. *Saṁsāra*-duḥkha . Create suffering, one after another. Suffering. "When the living entity forgets his constitutional position as an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, he is immediately entrapped by the illusory external energy." Become a servant of . . . (indistinct) . . . we are servant of Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) We are not going to be servant of . . . (indistinct) . . . unless I give up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no scope for being . . . to become servant. Just like this Subala, he is now washing dishes in a hotel. And I heard that Madhudviṣa is now sweeping a floor in a restaurant. What do you think? (laughs) And what you were doing? Me, I was selling jewelry. I heard that you are driving car, you are a taxi driver. I tried it for a few weeks. For a couple of weeks. We have to do this. As soon as we give up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, these things are ready, "Come on." Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare. "Yes, please come." There is no other alternative. Either serve Kṛṣṇa or serve māyā , that's all. So unless one is rascal, how he will accept māyā's service? Māyā's service is not very palatable. But māyā is ready. As soon as you give up Kṛṣṇa's service . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- July 16, 1976, New York (Conversation After Interview with Religious Editor, Associated Press) Because they are accustomed to the business of hammering the bricks from time immemorial, they think, "This is the business. How is that this man is not engaged in this business?" Even after he'd understood the analogy that the man was in the prison and hammering bricks, he was still thinking that, "Well, shouldn't he still be hammering bricks?" He was asking that. He was still thinking like that. It's amazing. He couldn't understand any of the analogies. That is the karmīs . Even the Orissa politicians, they accused Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Because the Orissa politician . . . it is a fact the Mahārāja Pratāparudra, the King of Orissa during the time of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he was politically very strong. At that time the Muhammadans were conquering different parts of India, but they could not enter Orissa or the southern India. They were very strong. So this Mahārāja Pratāparudra politically was very strong. So the modern politicians of Orissa, they accuse Caitanya Mahāprabhu that, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to Orissa and Mahārāja Pratāparudra became influenced by Him, Orissa fell down. They accuse sometimes that Orissa's political position became weakened on account of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's influence on Mahārāja Pratāparudra. They say. The modern politicians of Orissa, they also do not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. *Śrīla Prabhupāda? There's this editor from that Trans*-India magazine downstairs, but also that . . . the doctor is there as well. So would you like to see the doctor, or would you like to do another interview, or . . .? They tried to . . . they were trying to contact the Trans-India to have him come another day, but apparently it doesn't seem as though they did it. So they've come hoping to get an interview. So that you decide, which is important. No, I . . . we'll see if we can arrange it. Would you like to see the doctor? *Yes. No, the Trans*-India if he wants. I'll see. Whatever I can . . . They can wait, or one of them may come. (aside) So what is the news? The karmīs decided they want to have a meeting. Oh, that GBC meeting. No, no. My karmī friends, on the 19th in New York. Oh, your business. Yes. Oh, that's nice. They always decide on perfect timing. (laughs) *That's nice. I shall prefer to see the Trans*-India first, because they will give some publicity to our movement. So we'll tell the doctor to please wait? Yes. All right, he has gone to where? He may bring the doctor up first. All right, let him come. So who is the chief man dealing with this? Who is the chief secretary, all these visitors? *Bali*-mardana has been greeting them, because Rāmeśvara is involved in the GBC meeting. So you have been in the GBC meeting? Yes, I was earlier. What is the subject matter? We discussed Jagadīśa Prabhu's request to primarily attend his engagement with gurukula , and we also discussed Satsvarūpa Gosvāmī's desire to attend primarily Library Party. It is good proposal. We discussed various difficulties that have been happening in Australia, and that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa should go there and help for . . . just for a visit, just to help. And then they will report to you. What is Iran's business? Going on? I got some good report from Nandarāṇī that she is in contact with the Shah's daughter, princess. Is that a fact? Well, Nandarāṇī Prabhu is doing very well. She's got a gurukula , a school for the Indian children—they are being well attended. Also Mahārāja, Parivrājakācārya Swāmī, he has been in touch with the Shah's daughter, and he's been preaching to them. *Shah's son*-in-law is interested, I have heard. Yes, he is interested. *That's good. They are enlightened, the daughter and the son*-in-law both? Well, they are both interested, but they are also very much . . . Biased. They are also biased. Yes. That is natural. *The Trans*-India people, they'll come tomorrow at four-thirty, if that's all right. Yeah. And the doctor's on his way up now. He'll be here in five minutes. Dayānanda Prabhu is doing very nicely. Very nicely. Very, very first class. What he's doing now? First of all, he's helping in every program we have. He's very cooperative, very intelligent boy. Yes, he's very good boy. And he's also working as a computer man, very good job. Oh, a good salary? Yes, very good salary. He knows computer? Yes. That's nice. Yes, he's good electrician. Yes. So where he is employed? He's employed with one of my clients. Oh. So what salary? Sperry, Sperry Univac. What salary he is getting? Ah, he's getting about twelve, thirteen hundred dollars now. Salary? Yes. He was getting in America six hundred. Yes. (laughs) Getting double. And he will get a lot more and more. He will get a lot more. And he is . . . we have our regular programs, he brings people from business, we all bring people, and the prasādam and chanting and lecture. It's very nice. And so Nandarāṇī is also working? She is happy. She, for a while she taught at a karmī school. From that school . . . She has got experience. Yes, she's very good. Very first class. Both of them are very intelligent. And Nandarāṇī is more intelligent than her husband. (laughs) I know that. I find that he is very intelligent, Śrīla Prabhupāda, really. Ah, Dayānanda. Yes. He is intelligent, but Nandarāṇī is still more intelligent. (laughs) I know that. Both of them are intelligent, but this girl appears to be more intelligent. That's all right. What about their daughters? They are there. They're very happy. Where? In Tehran. They have gone there? They have come. Oh, when? About two months ago, a month. I saw them in Los Angeles. Yes, they left. Must have been just after we left there. A month ago, five, six weeks ago. They have got two daughters. Yes. They are there. They also attend gurukula . They have it regularly now. (indistinct background comments among devotees) So that reporter was very impressed. He's a very big reporter. He works for the API, the Associated Press. They give their news to papers all over the world, the news. So let him represent properly. Yes. You have given him a very unique interview, I think, with your analogies. Yes. That is there. Why they think Eastern, Western, Jewish and . . .? We are talking of the human being. That is the misunderstanding going on, that this is Hindu religion, Eastern religion. Kṛṣṇa begins from the word dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). Find out this. The rascals are taking Hindu, Muslim, Christian. Dehe , the body, and the inner force of the body, He's beginning His teaching. Where is the question of Hindu, Muslim, Christian and Jewish? Still they are misunderstanding, "This is Hindu." It is very hard for them to understand. This is science. Read that. Now, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā , boyhood, childhood, youthhood, old age, is it for the Hindus? The Christian do not become child, do not become youth? (guests enter) Aiye. Aiye baithiye. (Come, come sit.) This is Dr. Bhagat. Bhagat. You are from Gujarat? Gujarat, yes. He's one of our Life Members also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. She's your wife? Child? How many children you have got? How many children you have got? One. Only one? *There is no need of hundreds of rascal child, children. One is sufficient. Varam eka. Varaṁ guṇī*-putra , he must be qualified. And who is guṇī ? Who is a devotee and learned scholar. Ko'ta putreṇa jātena, yo na vidyā na bhaktimān . What is the use of such rascal child if he's not a devotee, neither learned? Khanena cakṣuṣā kiṁ cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam . What is the use of blind eyes? It is simply troublesome. So let there be one child, but he must be like Prahlāda, like Dhruva Mahārāja, and then child production is beneficial. Otherwise, if we beget children like cats and dogs, what is the use? That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. Another example is given: ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā-sahasrasaḥ . If there is one moon in the sky, it is sufficient to give light to the whole sky. What is the use of millions of stars? So, it is very good that you can take care of one child and make him a great devotee and learned scholar. Then it is successful. So Dr. Bhagat, I get some pain. It is . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- July 16, 1976, New York (Conversation After Interview with Religious Editor, Associated Press) Because they are accustomed to the business of hammering the bricks from time immemorial, they think, "This is the business. How is that this man is not engaged in this business?" Even after he'd understood the analogy that the man was in the prison and hammering bricks, he was still thinking that, "Well, shouldn't he still be hammering bricks?" He was asking that. He was still thinking like that. It's amazing. He couldn't understand any of the analogies. That is the karmīs . Even the Orissa politicians, they accused Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Because the Orissa politician . . . it is a fact the Mahārāja Pratāparudra, the King of Orissa during the time of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he was politically very strong. At that time the Muhammadans were conquering different parts of India, but they could not enter Orissa or the southern India. They were very strong. So this Mahārāja Pratāparudra politically was very strong. So the modern politicians of Orissa, they accuse Caitanya Mahāprabhu that, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to Orissa and Mahārāja Pratāparudra became influenced by Him, Orissa fell down. They accuse sometimes that Orissa's political position became weakened on account of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's influence on Mahārāja Pratāparudra. They say. The modern politicians of Orissa, they also do not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. *Śrīla Prabhupāda? There's this editor from that Trans*-India magazine downstairs, but also that . . . the doctor is there as well. So would you like to see the doctor, or would you like to do another interview, or . . .? They tried to . . . they were trying to contact the Trans-India to have him come another day, but apparently it doesn't seem as though they did it. So they've come hoping to get an interview. So that you decide, which is important. No, I . . . we'll see if we can arrange it. Would you like to see the doctor? *Yes. No, the Trans*-India if he wants. I'll see. Whatever I can . . . They can wait, or one of them may come. (aside) So what is the news? The karmīs decided they want to have a meeting. Oh, that GBC meeting. No, no. My karmī friends, on the 19th in New York. Oh, your business. Yes. Oh, that's nice. They always decide on perfect timing. (laughs) *That's nice. I shall prefer to see the Trans*-India first, because they will give some publicity to our movement. So we'll tell the doctor to please wait? Yes. All right, he has gone to where? He may bring the doctor up first. All right, let him come. So who is the chief man dealing with this? Who is the chief secretary, all these visitors? *Bali*-mardana has been greeting them, because Rāmeśvara is involved in the GBC meeting. So you have been in the GBC meeting? Yes, I was earlier. What is the subject matter? We discussed Jagadīśa Prabhu's request to primarily attend his engagement with gurukula , and we also discussed Satsvarūpa Gosvāmī's desire to attend primarily Library Party. It is good proposal. We discussed various difficulties that have been happening in Australia, and that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa should go there and help for . . . just for a visit, just to help. And then they will report to you. What is Iran's business? Going on? I got some good report from Nandarāṇī that she is in contact with the Shah's daughter, princess. Is that a fact? Well, Nandarāṇī Prabhu is doing very well. She's got a gurukula , a school for the Indian children—they are being well attended. Also Mahārāja, Parivrājakācārya Swāmī, he has been in touch with the Shah's daughter, and he's been preaching to them. *Shah's son*-in-law is interested, I have heard. Yes, he is interested. *That's good. They are enlightened, the daughter and the son*-in-law both? Well, they are both interested, but they are also very much . . . Biased. They are also biased. Yes. That is natural. *The Trans*-India people, they'll come tomorrow at four-thirty, if that's all right. Yeah. And the doctor's on his way up now. He'll be here in five minutes. Dayānanda Prabhu is doing very nicely. Very nicely. Very, very first class. What he's doing now? First of all, he's helping in every program we have. He's very cooperative, very intelligent boy. Yes, he's very good boy. And he's also working as a computer man, very good job. Oh, a good salary? Yes, very good salary. He knows computer? Yes. That's nice. Yes, he's good electrician. Yes. So where he is employed? He's employed with one of my clients. Oh. So what salary? Sperry, Sperry Univac. What salary he is getting? Ah, he's getting about twelve, thirteen hundred dollars now. Salary? Yes. He was getting in America six hundred. Yes. (laughs) Getting double. And he will get a lot more and more. He will get a lot more. And he is . . . we have our regular programs, he brings people from business, we all bring people, and the prasādam and chanting and lecture. It's very nice. And so Nandarāṇī is also working? She is happy. She, for a while she taught at a karmī school. From that school . . . She has got experience. Yes, she's very good. Very first class. Both of them are very intelligent. And Nandarāṇī is more intelligent than her husband. (laughs) I know that. I find that he is very intelligent, Śrīla Prabhupāda, really. Ah, Dayānanda. Yes. He is intelligent, but Nandarāṇī is still more intelligent. (laughs) I know that. Both of them are intelligent, but this girl appears to be more intelligent. That's all right. What about their daughters? They are there. They're very happy. Where? In Tehran. They have gone there? They have come. Oh, when? About two months ago, a month. I saw them in Los Angeles. Yes, they left. Must have been just after we left there. A month ago, five, six weeks ago. They have got two daughters. Yes. They are there. They also attend gurukula . They have it regularly now. (indistinct background comments among devotees) So that reporter was very impressed. He's a very big reporter. He works for the API, the Associated Press. They give their news to papers all over the world, the news. So let him represent properly. Yes. You have given him a very unique interview, I think, with your analogies. Yes. That is there. Why they think Eastern, Western, Jewish and . . .? We are talking of the human being. That is the misunderstanding going on, that this is Hindu religion, Eastern religion. Kṛṣṇa begins from the word dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). Find out this. The rascals are taking Hindu, Muslim, Christian. Dehe , the body, and the inner force of the body, He's beginning His teaching. Where is the question of Hindu, Muslim, Christian and Jewish? Still they are misunderstanding, "This is Hindu." It is very hard for them to understand. This is science. Read that. Now, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā , boyhood, childhood, youthhood, old age, is it for the Hindus? The Christian do not become child, do not become youth? (guests enter) Aiye. Aiye baithiye. (Come, come sit.) This is Dr. Bhagat. Bhagat. You are from Gujarat? Gujarat, yes. He's one of our Life Members also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. She's your wife? Child? How many children you have got? How many children you have got? One. Only one? *There is no need of hundreds of rascal child, children. One is sufficient. Varam eka. Varaṁ guṇī*-putra , he must be qualified. And who is guṇī ? Who is a devotee and learned scholar. Ko'ta putreṇa jātena, yo na vidyā na bhaktimān . What is the use of such rascal child if he's not a devotee, neither learned? Khanena cakṣuṣā kiṁ cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam . What is the use of blind eyes? It is simply troublesome. So let there be one child, but he must be like Prahlāda, like Dhruva Mahārāja, and then child production is beneficial. Otherwise, if we beget children like cats and dogs, what is the use? That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. Another example is given: ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā-sahasrasaḥ . If there is one moon in the sky, it is sufficient to give light to the whole sky. What is the use of millions of stars? So, it is very good that you can take care of one child and make him a great devotee and learned scholar. Then it is successful. So Dr. Bhagat, I get some pain. It is . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- July 17, 1976, New York I came to offer my obeisances to you. I became a Life Member as a result of Gopāla Kṛṣṇa's talking to me. In Bombay? No, sir, here. I came to offer you obeisances in Brooklyn temple, and I asked you a special permission as my Gurudeva, which you gladly gave me, to teach *Gītā* in Poughkeepsie, where I am. And since then I have been trying to do your work sincerely in Poughkeepsie. Poughkeepsie. Yes, sir. Where it is? It is hundred miles north of New York. I work there. I am an engineer, and I have been trying to spread Kṛṣṇa conscious movement of yours, trying to teach from your *Gītā* to the Indian community, and I have been slowly trying to get American people also involved. And, as I see, more and more American people are now coming in. And in fact, those people who are very steadfast, who come to attend my class, are the American people. I am very glad to see that they are taking very great interest. And . . . Indians are not taking so much. No, sir, I'm . . . Indians are bara sāhīb . (laughs) Ah. You see they have been going to . . . Ready? *Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I wanted to just finalize when you would join the festival tomorrow. I wanted to fix that up, so I could, you know, just do that. We're leaving Fifty*-ninth Street at two o'clock, and we're reaching downtown, the park, at four o'clock. In other words, it takes two hours, the route. At four o'clock we're going to have a Winnebago. Winnebago is like a small bus which has a . . . it has a lavatory in it. Like Satsvarūpa Mahārāja's traveling bus. *Right. It has a bathroom in it. That's going to accompany the parade in case at any time you require it, that will be right there. So it can pull alongside the cart. At four o'clock we'll arrive, and at about four*-thirty Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja will give a short introduction for you, and at four forty-five you'll speak. So at four forty-five you're expected to give the lecture. It begins at two o'clock at Fifty-ninth Street for two hours. Then by five, five-fifteen, the whole thing will be over. So I wanted to know what time you would like to join the parade. So you suggest. *Well, it depends on a number of things. One thing is that your rest. After taking massage you take prasādam , and then your resting period. Another thing is how long you want to ride along on the cart. It depends on . . . I think it should depend on . . . I can't . . . no*-one can make that decision. We're agreeable to anything that you suggest. Devotees are enlivened simply that you're here in New York with us. So at two o'clock you start? Right. You want me at the starting point? We want you to do simply what you feel would be best. No, no. What is the best? Starting point, my presence required? *Well, it's not a question of required. I mean that's a very exciting time, you know, but I don't know if it's . . . I wouldn't say it's required. We're going to start. One way or the other, we have to start the parade. It's exciting at that time, probably, but you could also join midway. Suppose you could also join at Thirty*-fourth Street instead of Fifty-ninth Street. Halfway is about Thirty-fourth Street. So you could join there. That will be better. That would be about three o'clock. That would be at about three o'clock. It depends upon your resting period also. No, that I will adjust. That is not the thing. I want to know when my joining will be very good. That I want to know. In the beginning or the middle, in the last, that you have to decide. Then I shall adjust. In London, I think . . . of course, the whole route I was present, but that was little troublesome because sometimes I am called by nature. But you say there will be a car. Yes, which is equipped . . . So under the circumstances, which time will be good? That you say. Then I shall adjust. That you consult, which time. Yes, if I can have about five minutes, I'll ask a few people. Yes. Then I'll adjust. So you're agreeable at any time as long as that convenience . . . that's a good convenience, I think, that we'll have that vehicle. That's all. So I'll just inquire. This is a general idea of what's going on the whole day tomorrow. I'll leave it with Hari-śauri. The preaching is going on. Nobody has become our student? Among the Indian people . . . Indian or European or American, it doesn't matter. Since you are preaching there, has anybody joined this movement? No, sir. I have been begging. I've been begging people. Now I know that two American people will become steadfast, and I will make them . . . sure that they join the movement, but among the Indian people, this is the problem. Whether you have joined? *I have joined. I'm a Life Member. I come to the temple. I study your books all the time. I have your photo. I do your ārati every day without fail. Without fail. Nayanābhirāma came to my house two weeks ago, and I showed him everything, Kṛṣṇa and your photo next to it, and I every day do pūjā . Complete vegetarian, and we are doing ārati every day, first obeisances to you, my father*-mother, and Kṛṣṇa. *Your father*-mother here? *No, sir. They are dead now. They have expired. But I still offer my obeisances to them. First obeisances to you, then to Kṛṣṇa, then to my father*-mother, and then I start my pūjā . That's . . . And I do complete ārati and everything, because I want your blessings. I wish that I have a guru like you every birth after birth. But one of the problem, Prabhupāda, personally, I have found among the Indian people is that because we are used to so many demigods, they still don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are so many arguments I get that like . . . There is no question of argument. No no. *It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Yes sir. *But if they do not accept Bhagavad*-gītā as the authority, then they are fools. Yes, they are. So fools cannot be enlightened. That is the difficulty. And this is one of the biggest problems. If they do not accept the authority, then they are fools. Yes. After I teach *Gītā* and I try to tell them to please sing bhajan . . . *That is not their fault. Even the big, big leaders of India, even Gandhi, they do not know actually. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. The Bhagavad-gītā has been misinterpreted, misused by the leaders, by the politicians, by the so-called philosophers. Everyone has misused Bhagavad-gītā . I'll tell you one thing, that Swami Chinmayananda . . . He's a great . . . He's great, but I'll tell you what happened. "Great" means great fool. Yes. In Third Chapter where Kṛṣṇa is saying: "Renounce your everything to Me." Okay? And the word matam is used, matam . Now Swami Chinmayananda is saying: "That's My opinion," that's what Kṛṣṇa is telling, and they will be freed of all the work. And you have written matam means scriptural injunctions. And I tried to show the students who come to the class that "This is the difference. Look at this, very big difference," because if Kṛṣṇa is only giving His opinion, then He's talking like a diplomat, not talking like God. But if He says: "This is the law . . ." And I explained to them that like Bible has got ten commandments . . . *And another thing, even Kṛṣṇa says, giving His opinion—that's taking it as it is—Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat ( BG 7.7). So He's the supreme authority. So supreme authority's matam is a high court judgment. There is no argument anyone. The judgment is given by the high court. Final decision. So if Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, then who can give him better opinion than Him? For argument's sake, even if He says . . . any gentleman will say like that, that . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "You do it." He is Supreme Lord, He can force you, but He does not do that. So although His matam is the Supreme, but as a gentle preacher, He says: "That is My matam ." But if you are sane, if you know that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority, then His matam is final. *Right. And that's why I try to show the difference to people, that "Please follow Prabhupāda's Gītā . And please make sure that when you read, you read Gītā As It Is." This is why I'm trying to show the differences to people. Personally there is only one question I have, and that is, throughout all the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatams that you have translated so far, I see all the time any, like Kardama Muni or other, all other great sages, whenever they do tapasya , every time Mahā-Viṣṇu comes down. Now I know that throughout other . . . even Back to Godhead , you have considered Mahā-Viṣṇu as an expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yet Mahā-Viṣṇu is coming every time as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So what is the subtle position here? *There is no difference between . . . just like . . . it has been explained in the Brahma*-saṁhitā . Just like one candle, then you kindle another candle, then you kindle another, another, another, another. So you say: "This is first, this is second, this is third, this is fourth." But so far candlepower is concerned, they are all the same. Either you take first or the second or the third, so far the candlepower is concerned, that is all the same. Still, you have to say: "This is first, this is second, that is third, this is fourth, this is . . ." I was trying to . . . I was trying . . . *So God and His different expansions, they are of same power. Rāmādi*-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu, kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo . . . *. . . govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . *So He is existing with all the incarnations, rāmādi*-mūrtiṣu . Yes, even Rāmacandra is . . . So Rāma is not less than Kṛṣṇa, but He is incarnation. This is the conclusion. *Because I was trying to refer to Govindāṣṭakam , where it says (sings) śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā āra gokuleśa gopāla govardhana*-nātha viṣṇu, jīveti amṛtamedhadevo govindaṁ dāmodaram ada vetti . He's saying, śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā āra gokuleśa gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu . That is what I was trying to see that is really . . . I know that Kṛṣṇa's expansion is Mahā-Viṣṇu, but still, why do they say govardhana-nātha viṣṇu ? That's what I was trying to understand. Please don't misunderstand me. I am trying to understand from you. *No, no, Govardhana . . . everyone is viṣṇu*-tattva. Viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva , like that. So all of them on the Viṣṇu category. That's all. Viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti. Viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti (BS 5.46). These things are there. So Godhead is viṣṇu-tattva . So sometimes Viṣṇu, sometimes Nārāyaṇa, sometimes Govinda, sometimes Kṛṣṇa, like that. *That's very nice, because one can understand very well. Because I always took Mahā*-Viṣṇu as the expansion of Kṛṣṇa, but still, when I went to Govindāṣṭakam and then also like Brahma-saṁhitā says, yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā . . . (BS 5.48). *. . . loma*-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ . *. . . jagad*-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya (Prabhupāda quotes same verse simultaneously) kalā-viśeṣo govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . So he says Mahā-Viṣṇu is even one expansion of Kṛṣṇa, yet in Govindāṣṭakam they say, govardhana . . . gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu, śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā gokuleśa, gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu . *They're all viṣṇu*-tattva. Viṣṇu-sahasra-nāma-stotra . *Because many people in . . . at least, among the Indians I get very big argument about it, that it is Mahā*-Viṣṇu who is Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Kṛṣṇa is only one avatāra of His. And I try to . . . *That argument is discussed in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . First volume? Yes, first volume you see. See the contents. You can't find it? When he is discussing, somebody, says Viṣṇu is the origin? So children, how many? No children. No children. No children That is good than another. (laughs) No responsibility. I have decided that in about five, ten years, I'll work that much only. Afterwards I'm going to go to work for you. Thank you. Because I don't find any more pleasures, you know, in anything. As I go on chanting and chanting and chanting, sometime, Prabhupāda . . . oh, my first dream that came when I joined your movement . . . first dream that I came . . . and I told my wife about it in the morning. I said, first I saw a moon, and then I saw another large planet coming up, and then on the top of it I saw the lotus feet of the Lord. And when I saw the lotus feet of the Lord, I saw you coming on a swan and doing His pūjā . And I kept on shouting to my wife that, "Please see, Prabhupāda is here. Please see. He is doing pūjā of lotus feet of the Lord." And that was my first dream that came. Sometimes after chanting all the time I feel as if He is walking next to me. I can feel as if His bluish body is right next to me, and all the time I have a feeling that somebody is next to me, you know. I don't know whether I'm going crazy or I'm . . . *Kṛṣṇa is already there. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). (Tamāla Kṛṣṇa enters) So? *So I asked, I took a poll, census poll of about six or seven GBC men, including Kīrtanānanda, Rāmeśvara, Bali*-mardana, so many men who know New York, and they all thought that if you join the parade at Twenty-third Street . . . *Twenty*-third. At what time? Ah, it'll be . . . it should be at about 3:15, like that. That's all right. *Then it will be nice. Because the whole parade is about fifty*-four blocks, and you'll be riding for about nineteen blocks. It means your ride will take about forty-five minutes. So what time I'll have to start? From here? Somebody will come? Yes, I think I will probably come. Kīrtanānanda will also . . . At what time? I think, say, it's going to be either 2:45 or 3:00. Tomorrow morning I'll let you know. So at 3:00 I shall be ready. You can come and take me. That's all. Well, I think at 3:00 . . . but then by the time we get in the car . . . I think it will work, 3:00 o'clock. That's all right. Three o'clock, I'll be ready. You come and take. In the meantime, I shall finish my . . . Yes, that will leave a little time for resting. The whole program should be over by about . . . So tomorrow I shall take lunch at 1:00. One o'clock. That's all. Then, by 3:00 o'clock, I shall be ready. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thik hai. (Okay then.) Kṛṣṇa is preparing you to join this movement wholeheartedly. It is very nice. (to devotee) Now you have got it? *Yes. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja quotes, ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28): "All these incarnations of Godhead are either plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras , but Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself." Then he says: "The Bhāgavatam describes the symptoms and deeds of the incarnations in general and counts Śrī Kṛṣṇa among them. This made Sūta Gosvāmī greatly apprehensive. Therefore he distinguished each incarnation by its specific symptom. All the incarnations of Godhead are plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras , but the primeval Lord is Śrī Kṛṣṇa. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the fountainhead of all incarnations. An opponent may say: 'This is your interpretation, but actually the Supreme Lord is Nārāyaṇa, who is in the transcendental realm. He, Nārāyaṇa, incarnates as Lord Kṛṣṇa. This is the meaning of the verse as I see it. There is no need for further consideration.' To such a misguided interpreter we may reply, 'Why should you suggest such fallacious logic? An interpretation is never accepted as evidence if it opposes the principle of scripture. One should not state a predicate before its subject, for it cannot thus stand without proper support.' If I do not state a subject, I do not state a predicate. First I speak the former and then the latter. The predicate of a sentence is what is unknown to the reader, whereas the subject is what is known to him. For example, we may say: 'This vipra is a greatly learned man.' In this sentence, the vipra is the subject, and the predicate is his erudition. The man's being a vipra is known, but his erudition is unknown. Therefore the person is identified first and his erudition later. In the same way, all these incarnations were known, but whose incarnations they are was unknown. First the word ete , 'these,' establishes the subject, the incarnations. Then 'plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras' follows as the predicate. In the same way, when Kṛṣṇa was first counted among the incarnations, specific knowledge about Him was still unknown. Therefore the word Kṛṣṇa appears as the subject, followed by the predicate, describing Him as the original Personality of Godhead. This establishes that Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead. The original Personality of Godhead is therefore necessarily Kṛṣṇa. Had Kṛṣṇa been the plenary portion and Nārāyaṇa the primeval Lord, the statement of Sūta Gosvāmī would have been reversed. Thus he would have said: 'Nārāyaṇa, the source of all incarnations, is the original Personality of Godhead. He has appeared as Śrī Kṛṣṇa.' " *So everything is given with logic and argument. Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). First of all He's grouped among the incarnations, but Kṛṣṇa is not incarnation. He's bhagavān svayam . He comes original. Yes. So if you argue against the authority of *Bhāgavatam* , then that argument has no value. *That's where the problem in India occuring. Everyone is saying God is Mahā*-Viṣṇu, and Kṛṣṇa and Rāma are only avatāras , and that's where the big argument came in. In fact, I talked to so many . . . *Otherwise why Sūta Gosvāmī, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28)? And Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). So how one can say like that? That means less intelligent. If Kṛṣṇa . . . if one accepts the authority of Bhagavad*-gītā , Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Then how they falsely say? Aham ādir hi devānām . Find out this verse. Sarvaśaḥ . Kṛṣṇa jhoot bol rahe hain kya? (Is Kṛṣṇa telling lies?) No. Never. He has no reason to cheat us. He has no reason to lie. Shall I read the . . .? Um hmm. "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for, in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." Purport? Yes. *"As stated in Brahma*-saṁhitā , Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. No one is greater than Him; *He is the cause of all causes. Here it is also stated by the Lord personally that He is the cause of all the demigods and the sages. Even the demigods and great sages cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. They can neither understand His name nor His personality, so what is the position of the so*-called scholars of this tiny planet? No one can understand why the Supreme God comes to earth as an ordinary human being and executes such commonplace and yet wonderful activities. One should know, then, that scholarship is not the qualification necessary to understand Kṛṣṇa. Even the demigods and the great sages have tried to understand Kṛṣṇa by their mental speculation, and they have failed to do so. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is stated clearly that even the great demigods are not able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They can speculate to the limits of their imperfect senses and can reach the opposite conclusion of impersonalism, of something not manifested by the three qualities of material nature. Or they can imagine something by mental speculation. But it is not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa by such foolish speculation." *"Here the Lord indirectly says that if anyone wants to know the Absolute Truth, 'Here I am, present as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I am the Supreme.' One should know this. Although one cannot understand the inconceivable Lord who is personally present, He nonetheless exists. We can actually understand Kṛṣṇa, who is eternal, full of bliss and knowledge, simply by studying His words in Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . The impersonal Brahman can be conceived by persons who are already in the inferior energy of the Lord, but the Personality of Godhead cannot be conceived unless one is in the transcendental position. Because most men cannot understand Kṛṣṇa in His actual situation, out of His causeless mercy He descends to show favor to such speculators. Yet despite the Supreme Lord's uncommon activities, these speculators, due to contamination in the material energy, still think that the impersonal Brahman is the Supreme. Only the devotees, who are fully surrendered unto the Supreme Lord, can understand, by the grace of the Lord, that He is Kṛṣṇa. The devotees of the Lord do not bother about the impersonal Brahman conception of God. Their faith and devotion bring them to surrender immediately unto the Supreme Lord, and out of the causeless mercy of Kṛṣṇa, they can understand Kṛṣṇa. No one else can understand Him. So even great sages agree, 'What is ātmā ? What is the Supreme? It is He whom we have to worship.' " In my class I run into lot of arguments, especially from our Indian people, and this is one of the biggest arguments that people pose. They say: "Why are you calling yourselves Vaiṣṇavas and not Kṛṣṇayas?" Hmm? If I call Kṛṣṇa . . . I accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme Personality of Godhead, then the question comes to me, "Why are you calling yourself Vaiṣṇavas? Why not Kṛṣṇayas?" *That already is explained, that Kṛṣṇa or Rāma, Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa, They are all viṣṇu*-tattva . Therefore Viṣṇu is the common word for everyone. Just like candle. Everyone is candle, but still, this is first candle, this is second candle, this is third candle, like that. So Godhead means all viṣṇu-tattva . They are not jīva-tattva . So therefore those who are devotee of God, they are called Vaiṣṇava. This specific word Vaiṣṇava, that refers to Viṣṇu? Worshipers of Viṣṇu? Yes. Viṣṇu asyra devataḥ iti vaiṣṇavaḥ . Throughout *Vedas* also, Viṣṇu is the yajñeśvara . The supreme, yes. Yajño vai viṣṇuḥ . *Viṣṇur ārādhyate. Viṣṇur ārādhyate, nānyat tat*-toṣa-kāraṇam. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). Viṣṇor ārādhanam. Ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param . These are the śāstric . . . that viṣṇor ārādhana . Kṛṣṇa-ārādhana is also viṣṇu-ārādhana .' *In fact, even Brahma*-saṁhitā , Brahmājī says, *So "Viṣṇu is creating all the planetary systems. He's in His yoga*-nidrā . He is the original Govinda, and I worship Him." So that is why both names are used so synonymously. And that is why people are questioning me, and I have difficulty to answer them. Although I accept Kṛṣṇa as original Personality of Godhead, but how to explain to them? No, these are the references. *In here also. Should I read the verse? "All other incarnations are potentially situated in the original body of the primeval Lord. Thus, according to one's opinion, one may address Him as any one of the incarnations." Purport: "It is not contradictory for a devotee to call the Supreme Lord by any one of the various names of His plenary expansions, because the original Personality of Godhead includes all such categories. Since the plenary expansions exist within the original person, one may call Him by any of these names. In Śrī Caitanya*-bhāgavata Lord Caitanya says: 'I was lying asleep in the ocean of milk, but I was wakened by the call of Nāḍā, Śrī Advaita Prabhu.' Here the Lord refers to His form as Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu." *Translation: "Some say that Śrī Kṛṣṇa is directly Nara*-Nārāyaṇa, others say that He is directly Vāmana. Some say that Kṛṣṇa is the incarnation of Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. None of these statements is impossible. Each of them is as correct as the others. Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta states," Purport: 'According to the intimate relationships between Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the primeval Lord, and His devotees, the *Purāṇas* describe Him by various names. Sometimes He is called Nārāyaṇa, sometimes Upendra (Vāmana), the younger brother of Indra, King of heaven; and sometimes Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Sometimes He is called . . .' " *They are all viṣṇu*-tattva . *In fact, I remember very vividly that in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you wrote that it was Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu who came down to bless Dhruva Mahārāja when the planetary system started trembling due to his tapasya . Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. This is why people are questioning me continuously that, "How can you call Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead and not Viṣṇu?" And I say: "All are viṣṇu-tattva ." But it is very difficult to explain to them the actual position of Kṛṣṇa, because only through chanting . . . *That is decided by Bhāgavatam , ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). That tu , the name Kṛṣṇa, in the incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa is also included, but this Kṛṣṇa is the origin. So we have to take the direction. So that is also explained. Even if you say: "Kṛṣṇa is Vāmana," there is nothing wrong. If you believe that Kṛṣṇa is incarnation of Viṣṇu, there is nothing wrong. I don't believe that. No, no, others. Others . . . I believe Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Others. We simply accept, "Yes, it is all right." That's all. So that's a fact, because when Kṛṣṇa comes, He comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. I ask them then that, "Explain the three Viṣṇus—Mahā Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu and Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Even Viṣṇu Himself has expanded, what to talk of Kṛṣṇa." And then I ask them that "Kṛṣṇa came from which Viṣṇu? You tell me. If you can tell me that, then I will accept that Kṛṣṇa came from Viṣṇu. But if not, you have to accept my statement that Kṛṣṇa is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead. And you will not know Him unless you chant. Unless you chant." *Sometimes Mahā*-Viṣṇu wanted to see Kṛṣṇa. That is mentioned in the Bhāgavata , Yes Kṛṣṇa. And He took Arjuna with Him. *That's right. That's right. My father*-mother did their entire lifetime pūjā of Śrīnāthajī, Śrīnāthajī. Śrīnāthajī is Gopāla. Śrīnāthajī, we consider Him as Kṛṣṇa. Yes, He is Kṛṣṇa. He's our Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. It is decided by the court. Śrīnāthajī, there are . . . Mādhavendra Purī's worshipable Gopāla . . . he discovered Gopāla in Govardhana. That Gopāla was delivered to . . . who is the ācārya ? Vallabhācārya. And it is decided by the court that Śrīnāthajī originally belongs to Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. By the court. This Mādhavendra Purī is the spiritual master of Īśvara Purī. And Īśvara Purī is the spiritual master of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So from Mādhavendra Purī is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. So his Deity is Gopāla. That Gopāla is Śrīnāthajī. *When I was a young boy, eight years old, I went to Śrīnāthajī with my father*-mother, and there I had to take the brahma-samāna, brahma-smārana , which is the oath, taking of the oath in front of the Mahārāja and the priest of the Śrīnāthajī temple. And is that equal unto initiation, or is that just a ceremony by itself? No, initiation is another ceremony. What are the qualifications required for a person in working life like me, household like me, like myself, to get initiated? No, you can be initiated. There is no . . . because you are following the rules and regulations. Yes. Yes I am following. That's it. We initiate a person who follows the rules and regulations. I am following all your rules and regulations. Then you can be initiated. Yes. I think we have taken enough of your time, Prabhupāda. I would love to stay with you, and I would like to invite you to . . . Why don't you stay here in our temple? Probably I might. (laughs) Yes. We have got ladies' department and gentleman's department. You can stay. Indian man and wife: I would like to invite you to Poughkeepsie and stay with us if it is possible. Yes. How long it is? Hundred miles north from here. So by car? Yes, by car. It will take about four, five hours. No, two and a half hours. Two and a half hours. Traveling is little difficult for me. So there are many Indians? *There are about hundred and fifty Indian people. Thirty percent of them are Ārya*-samājīsts. They don't believe in anyone except doing havanas . Second edition of Muhammadans. Yes. *Ārya*-samājī means another edition of the Muhammadans. Some are Śiva followers, Śaivaites, of South India. *The Ārya*-samājīs, they do not believe in God, so how they are Śiva followers? Hodgepodge. No sāmajīs , but hodgepodge. Yes, it is. They don't know what is Personality of Godhead. Opportunity followers. Hodgepodge, that's right. Opportunists. Useless. They have no value. *Thirty percent of the Indian families, they are Ārya*-samājīsts, and twenty percent are South Indian Śaivaites. I get a lot of argument that, "Rāmacandrajī did the pūjā of Śivajī at Rāmeśvaram, so Śiva is greater than Rāma." I said: "Consider this, that Rāma was so humble to do the pūjā of Śivajī, but in Rāmastotrāṇi it says, rāma rāmeti rāmeti rāmerāma manorāne, śāstranāma tat tulyam śrī-rāma-nāma rāmarāme . That is what Śivajī is telling Pārvatī. Śivajī is telling Pārvatī in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19)." I say: "Why does Śivajī say that? Why is Śivajī sitting in samādhi ? Why not Kṛṣṇa sitting in samādhi ? Why not Rāma sitting in samādhi ? Why not Mahā-Viṣṇu sitting in samādhi ? Because Śivajī's position is to serve Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa as Rāma is so humble that He came and even did His devotee's pūjā ." Just like Kṛṣṇa is afraid of mother Yaśodā's rope. But that does not mean He is no longer the Supreme Lord. Exactly, exactly, exactly. He's afraid of "Mother, don't bind Me." So everyone is afraid of Kṛṣṇa, and He is afraid of His mother's rope. Yes. So does it mean Kṛṣṇa has become no more the Supreme? In fact, you might have heard of Satya Sai Baba in India. Yes. Now there are some people in our community there at Poughkeepsie, they are all followers of Satya Sai Baba, and they've been telling me that "Anyone you pray, Kṛṣṇa, Rāma, Viṣṇu, it comes to Satya Sai Baba." I said: "Don't tell me that nonsense," I said. (laughter) "Satya Sai Baba is not Kṛṣṇa, and don't tell me that." In fact for Guru Pūrṇimā they invited me to Satya Sai Baba's bhajanas . I said: "No, I have my guru . I'm very happy. Don't disturb me. I have Kṛṣṇa, I have my guru , and I have my path. I don't have to go to anybody's guru , and I don't have to take anyone's teachings." I say: "My *Gītā* is here, written by Prabhupāda. I follow it, and that's it. I don't have to have extraordinary brains to follow everyone's *Gītā* or everything else. Here is my path." In South America there was a great criticism? South Africa. South Africa. Yes. Of Satya Sai. One man, he challenged that he could prove that Sai Baba is a fake. So he's written so many letters to Sai Baba to challenge him, but he's never received a reply. So that paper gave this article criticizing Sai Baba like that, and other gurus , and then in the same paper there was a very nice article concerning our Jagannātha Cart Festival. So practically they were appreciating that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is bona fide and these other people are nonsense. Right. In fact, several people, even in our community in Poughkeepsie, received letters from Satya Sai Baba's followers that, "Here is a letter. Make ten copies and send the ten copies to ten different people. If you don't, Satya Sai Baba's thunderbolt will come and strike your family, and they'll be destroyed." Now no guru ever puts a thunderbolt on his devotee, and I said: "If that is a guru , I'll stay ten thousand miles away from him, because my guru is very kind and he'll bless me." I said: "No guru should ever put a thunderbolt on his devotee." Yes. Yes. (aside) You can turn towards this. *At Monticello in Catskill . . . I don't know if you know it. Monticello in Catskill Mountains here? Just about fifty*-sixty miles north, there is Muktananda. Muktananda. Muktananda. And he has got his retreat, and some of our people go there. And I heard from them that he is teaching . . . he is quoting *Gītā* . But if you go to his room, oṁ namaḥ śivāya . I said: "This is contradiction." I said: "If he is a Śiva follower, he should teach Śiva Purāṇa and not *Gītā* ." I said this is . . . But they are actually impersonalists. They neither follow Śiva nor Kṛṣṇa. They are impersonalists. Hypocrites. Their idea is the Absolute Truth is imperson. You can worship Him either as Śiva or as Kṛṣṇa, as you like. That is their philosophy. Yes. Yes. But this is the height of hypocrisy, to teach *Gītā* and to chant oṁ namaḥ śivāya . *No, because they say: "Either way, you become impersonal at the end. You brahma*-liṅ . You become one with Brahma. But before you become brahma-liṅ , you can imagine some form, either Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu or Śiva or Durgā, the same thing." That is their . . . In fact some of the arguments that I received were . . . "If you go to heaven, let's say, Vaikuṇṭha, then you become . . . you join the impersonal Brahman. Then you have nothing else to do." He says: "In material world we have family. We have something to do." I said: "If you believe in impersonalism, you have nothing to do. If you believe in personalism, you will serve the Lord there." Impersonal means if you have nothing to do, then you'll become mad. Exactly. And again you come back to this material world. Exactly. Now, Prabhupāda, I have taken too much of your time. I want to thank you very much. I humbly offer my obeisances. Thank you very much. I wish that I can continue your work. Please do. You'll be happy. Kṛṣṇa will make you happy. And huh . . . Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kas . . . (BG 18.69). (break) (end) Conversation -- July 17, 1976, New York I came to offer my obeisances to you. I became a Life Member as a result of Gopāla Kṛṣṇa's talking to me. In Bombay? No, sir, here. I came to offer you obeisances in Brooklyn temple, and I asked you a special permission as my Gurudeva, which you gladly gave me, to teach *Gītā* in Poughkeepsie, where I am. And since then I have been trying to do your work sincerely in Poughkeepsie. Poughkeepsie. Yes, sir. Where it is? It is hundred miles north of New York. I work there. I am an engineer, and I have been trying to spread Kṛṣṇa conscious movement of yours, trying to teach from your *Gītā* to the Indian community, and I have been slowly trying to get American people also involved. And, as I see, more and more American people are now coming in. And in fact, those people who are very steadfast, who come to attend my class, are the American people. I am very glad to see that they are taking very great interest. And . . . Indians are not taking so much. No, sir, I'm . . . Indians are bara sāhīb . (laughs) Ah. You see they have been going to . . . Ready? *Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I wanted to just finalize when you would join the festival tomorrow. I wanted to fix that up, so I could, you know, just do that. We're leaving Fifty*-ninth Street at two o'clock, and we're reaching downtown, the park, at four o'clock. In other words, it takes two hours, the route. At four o'clock we're going to have a Winnebago. Winnebago is like a small bus which has a . . . it has a lavatory in it. Like Satsvarūpa Mahārāja's traveling bus. *Right. It has a bathroom in it. That's going to accompany the parade in case at any time you require it, that will be right there. So it can pull alongside the cart. At four o'clock we'll arrive, and at about four*-thirty Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja will give a short introduction for you, and at four forty-five you'll speak. So at four forty-five you're expected to give the lecture. It begins at two o'clock at Fifty-ninth Street for two hours. Then by five, five-fifteen, the whole thing will be over. So I wanted to know what time you would like to join the parade. So you suggest. *Well, it depends on a number of things. One thing is that your rest. After taking massage you take prasādam , and then your resting period. Another thing is how long you want to ride along on the cart. It depends on . . . I think it should depend on . . . I can't . . . no*-one can make that decision. We're agreeable to anything that you suggest. Devotees are enlivened simply that you're here in New York with us. So at two o'clock you start? Right. You want me at the starting point? We want you to do simply what you feel would be best. No, no. What is the best? Starting point, my presence required? *Well, it's not a question of required. I mean that's a very exciting time, you know, but I don't know if it's . . . I wouldn't say it's required. We're going to start. One way or the other, we have to start the parade. It's exciting at that time, probably, but you could also join midway. Suppose you could also join at Thirty*-fourth Street instead of Fifty-ninth Street. Halfway is about Thirty-fourth Street. So you could join there. That will be better. That would be about three o'clock. That would be at about three o'clock. It depends upon your resting period also. No, that I will adjust. That is not the thing. I want to know when my joining will be very good. That I want to know. In the beginning or the middle, in the last, that you have to decide. Then I shall adjust. In London, I think . . . of course, the whole route I was present, but that was little troublesome because sometimes I am called by nature. But you say there will be a car. Yes, which is equipped . . . So under the circumstances, which time will be good? That you say. Then I shall adjust. That you consult, which time. Yes, if I can have about five minutes, I'll ask a few people. Yes. Then I'll adjust. So you're agreeable at any time as long as that convenience . . . that's a good convenience, I think, that we'll have that vehicle. That's all. So I'll just inquire. This is a general idea of what's going on the whole day tomorrow. I'll leave it with Hari-śauri. The preaching is going on. Nobody has become our student? Among the Indian people . . . Indian or European or American, it doesn't matter. Since you are preaching there, has anybody joined this movement? No, sir. I have been begging. I've been begging people. Now I know that two American people will become steadfast, and I will make them . . . sure that they join the movement, but among the Indian people, this is the problem. Whether you have joined? *I have joined. I'm a Life Member. I come to the temple. I study your books all the time. I have your photo. I do your ārati every day without fail. Without fail. Nayanābhirāma came to my house two weeks ago, and I showed him everything, Kṛṣṇa and your photo next to it, and I every day do pūjā . Complete vegetarian, and we are doing ārati every day, first obeisances to you, my father*-mother, and Kṛṣṇa. *Your father*-mother here? *No, sir. They are dead now. They have expired. But I still offer my obeisances to them. First obeisances to you, then to Kṛṣṇa, then to my father*-mother, and then I start my pūjā . That's . . . And I do complete ārati and everything, because I want your blessings. I wish that I have a guru like you every birth after birth. But one of the problem, Prabhupāda, personally, I have found among the Indian people is that because we are used to so many demigods, they still don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are so many arguments I get that like . . . There is no question of argument. No no. *It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Yes sir. *But if they do not accept Bhagavad*-gītā as the authority, then they are fools. Yes, they are. So fools cannot be enlightened. That is the difficulty. And this is one of the biggest problems. If they do not accept the authority, then they are fools. Yes. After I teach *Gītā* and I try to tell them to please sing bhajan . . . *That is not their fault. Even the big, big leaders of India, even Gandhi, they do not know actually. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. The Bhagavad-gītā has been misinterpreted, misused by the leaders, by the politicians, by the so-called philosophers. Everyone has misused Bhagavad-gītā . I'll tell you one thing, that Swami Chinmayananda . . . He's a great . . . He's great, but I'll tell you what happened. "Great" means great fool. Yes. In Third Chapter where Kṛṣṇa is saying: "Renounce your everything to Me." Okay? And the word matam is used, matam . Now Swami Chinmayananda is saying: "That's My opinion," that's what Kṛṣṇa is telling, and they will be freed of all the work. And you have written matam means scriptural injunctions. And I tried to show the students who come to the class that "This is the difference. Look at this, very big difference," because if Kṛṣṇa is only giving His opinion, then He's talking like a diplomat, not talking like God. But if He says: "This is the law . . ." And I explained to them that like Bible has got ten commandments . . . *And another thing, even Kṛṣṇa says, giving His opinion—that's taking it as it is—Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat ( BG 7.7). So He's the supreme authority. So supreme authority's matam is a high court judgment. There is no argument anyone. The judgment is given by the high court. Final decision. So if Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, then who can give him better opinion than Him? For argument's sake, even if He says . . . any gentleman will say like that, that . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "You do it." He is Supreme Lord, He can force you, but He does not do that. So although His matam is the Supreme, but as a gentle preacher, He says: "That is My matam ." But if you are sane, if you know that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority, then His matam is final. *Right. And that's why I try to show the difference to people, that "Please follow Prabhupāda's Gītā . And please make sure that when you read, you read Gītā As It Is." This is why I'm trying to show the differences to people. Personally there is only one question I have, and that is, throughout all the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatams that you have translated so far, I see all the time any, like Kardama Muni or other, all other great sages, whenever they do tapasya , every time Mahā-Viṣṇu comes down. Now I know that throughout other . . . even Back to Godhead , you have considered Mahā-Viṣṇu as an expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yet Mahā-Viṣṇu is coming every time as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So what is the subtle position here? *There is no difference between . . . just like . . . it has been explained in the Brahma*-saṁhitā . Just like one candle, then you kindle another candle, then you kindle another, another, another, another. So you say: "This is first, this is second, this is third, this is fourth." But so far candlepower is concerned, they are all the same. Either you take first or the second or the third, so far the candlepower is concerned, that is all the same. Still, you have to say: "This is first, this is second, that is third, this is fourth, this is . . ." I was trying to . . . I was trying . . . *So God and His different expansions, they are of same power. Rāmādi*-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu, kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo . . . *. . . govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . *So He is existing with all the incarnations, rāmādi*-mūrtiṣu . Yes, even Rāmacandra is . . . So Rāma is not less than Kṛṣṇa, but He is incarnation. This is the conclusion. *Because I was trying to refer to Govindāṣṭakam , where it says (sings) śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā āra gokuleśa gopāla govardhana*-nātha viṣṇu, jīveti amṛtamedhadevo govindaṁ dāmodaram ada vetti . He's saying, śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā āra gokuleśa gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu . That is what I was trying to see that is really . . . I know that Kṛṣṇa's expansion is Mahā-Viṣṇu, but still, why do they say govardhana-nātha viṣṇu ? That's what I was trying to understand. Please don't misunderstand me. I am trying to understand from you. *No, no, Govardhana . . . everyone is viṣṇu*-tattva. Viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva , like that. So all of them on the Viṣṇu category. That's all. Viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti. Viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti (BS 5.46). These things are there. So Godhead is viṣṇu-tattva . So sometimes Viṣṇu, sometimes Nārāyaṇa, sometimes Govinda, sometimes Kṛṣṇa, like that. *That's very nice, because one can understand very well. Because I always took Mahā*-Viṣṇu as the expansion of Kṛṣṇa, but still, when I went to Govindāṣṭakam and then also like Brahma-saṁhitā says, yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā . . . (BS 5.48). *. . . loma*-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ . *. . . jagad*-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya (Prabhupāda quotes same verse simultaneously) kalā-viśeṣo govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . So he says Mahā-Viṣṇu is even one expansion of Kṛṣṇa, yet in Govindāṣṭakam they say, govardhana . . . gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu, śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā gokuleśa, gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu . *They're all viṣṇu*-tattva. Viṣṇu-sahasra-nāma-stotra . *Because many people in . . . at least, among the Indians I get very big argument about it, that it is Mahā*-Viṣṇu who is Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Kṛṣṇa is only one avatāra of His. And I try to . . . *That argument is discussed in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . First volume? Yes, first volume you see. See the contents. You can't find it? When he is discussing, somebody, says Viṣṇu is the origin? So children, how many? No children. No children. No children That is good than another. (laughs) No responsibility. I have decided that in about five, ten years, I'll work that much only. Afterwards I'm going to go to work for you. Thank you. Because I don't find any more pleasures, you know, in anything. As I go on chanting and chanting and chanting, sometime, Prabhupāda . . . oh, my first dream that came when I joined your movement . . . first dream that I came . . . and I told my wife about it in the morning. I said, first I saw a moon, and then I saw another large planet coming up, and then on the top of it I saw the lotus feet of the Lord. And when I saw the lotus feet of the Lord, I saw you coming on a swan and doing His pūjā . And I kept on shouting to my wife that, "Please see, Prabhupāda is here. Please see. He is doing pūjā of lotus feet of the Lord." And that was my first dream that came. Sometimes after chanting all the time I feel as if He is walking next to me. I can feel as if His bluish body is right next to me, and all the time I have a feeling that somebody is next to me, you know. I don't know whether I'm going crazy or I'm . . . *Kṛṣṇa is already there. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). (Tamāla Kṛṣṇa enters) So? *So I asked, I took a poll, census poll of about six or seven GBC men, including Kīrtanānanda, Rāmeśvara, Bali*-mardana, so many men who know New York, and they all thought that if you join the parade at Twenty-third Street . . . *Twenty*-third. At what time? Ah, it'll be . . . it should be at about 3:15, like that. That's all right. *Then it will be nice. Because the whole parade is about fifty*-four blocks, and you'll be riding for about nineteen blocks. It means your ride will take about forty-five minutes. So what time I'll have to start? From here? Somebody will come? Yes, I think I will probably come. Kīrtanānanda will also . . . At what time? I think, say, it's going to be either 2:45 or 3:00. Tomorrow morning I'll let you know. So at 3:00 I shall be ready. You can come and take me. That's all. Well, I think at 3:00 . . . but then by the time we get in the car . . . I think it will work, 3:00 o'clock. That's all right. Three o'clock, I'll be ready. You come and take. In the meantime, I shall finish my . . . Yes, that will leave a little time for resting. The whole program should be over by about . . . So tomorrow I shall take lunch at 1:00. One o'clock. That's all. Then, by 3:00 o'clock, I shall be ready. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thik hai. (Okay then.) Kṛṣṇa is preparing you to join this movement wholeheartedly. It is very nice. (to devotee) Now you have got it? *Yes. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja quotes, ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28): "All these incarnations of Godhead are either plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras , but Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself." Then he says: "The Bhāgavatam describes the symptoms and deeds of the incarnations in general and counts Śrī Kṛṣṇa among them. This made Sūta Gosvāmī greatly apprehensive. Therefore he distinguished each incarnation by its specific symptom. All the incarnations of Godhead are plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras , but the primeval Lord is Śrī Kṛṣṇa. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the fountainhead of all incarnations. An opponent may say: 'This is your interpretation, but actually the Supreme Lord is Nārāyaṇa, who is in the transcendental realm. He, Nārāyaṇa, incarnates as Lord Kṛṣṇa. This is the meaning of the verse as I see it. There is no need for further consideration.' To such a misguided interpreter we may reply, 'Why should you suggest such fallacious logic? An interpretation is never accepted as evidence if it opposes the principle of scripture. One should not state a predicate before its subject, for it cannot thus stand without proper support.' If I do not state a subject, I do not state a predicate. First I speak the former and then the latter. The predicate of a sentence is what is unknown to the reader, whereas the subject is what is known to him. For example, we may say: 'This vipra is a greatly learned man.' In this sentence, the vipra is the subject, and the predicate is his erudition. The man's being a vipra is known, but his erudition is unknown. Therefore the person is identified first and his erudition later. In the same way, all these incarnations were known, but whose incarnations they are was unknown. First the word ete , 'these,' establishes the subject, the incarnations. Then 'plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras' follows as the predicate. In the same way, when Kṛṣṇa was first counted among the incarnations, specific knowledge about Him was still unknown. Therefore the word Kṛṣṇa appears as the subject, followed by the predicate, describing Him as the original Personality of Godhead. This establishes that Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead. The original Personality of Godhead is therefore necessarily Kṛṣṇa. Had Kṛṣṇa been the plenary portion and Nārāyaṇa the primeval Lord, the statement of Sūta Gosvāmī would have been reversed. Thus he would have said: 'Nārāyaṇa, the source of all incarnations, is the original Personality of Godhead. He has appeared as Śrī Kṛṣṇa.' " *So everything is given with logic and argument. Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). First of all He's grouped among the incarnations, but Kṛṣṇa is not incarnation. He's bhagavān svayam . He comes original. Yes. So if you argue against the authority of *Bhāgavatam* , then that argument has no value. *That's where the problem in India occuring. Everyone is saying God is Mahā*-Viṣṇu, and Kṛṣṇa and Rāma are only avatāras , and that's where the big argument came in. In fact, I talked to so many . . . *Otherwise why Sūta Gosvāmī, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28)? And Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). So how one can say like that? That means less intelligent. If Kṛṣṇa . . . if one accepts the authority of Bhagavad*-gītā , Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Then how they falsely say? Aham ādir hi devānām . Find out this verse. Sarvaśaḥ . Kṛṣṇa jhoot bol rahe hain kya? (Is Kṛṣṇa telling lies?) No. Never. He has no reason to cheat us. He has no reason to lie. Shall I read the . . .? Um hmm. "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for, in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." Purport? Yes. *"As stated in Brahma*-saṁhitā , Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. No one is greater than Him; *He is the cause of all causes. Here it is also stated by the Lord personally that He is the cause of all the demigods and the sages. Even the demigods and great sages cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. They can neither understand His name nor His personality, so what is the position of the so*-called scholars of this tiny planet? No one can understand why the Supreme God comes to earth as an ordinary human being and executes such commonplace and yet wonderful activities. One should know, then, that scholarship is not the qualification necessary to understand Kṛṣṇa. Even the demigods and the great sages have tried to understand Kṛṣṇa by their mental speculation, and they have failed to do so. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is stated clearly that even the great demigods are not able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They can speculate to the limits of their imperfect senses and can reach the opposite conclusion of impersonalism, of something not manifested by the three qualities of material nature. Or they can imagine something by mental speculation. But it is not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa by such foolish speculation." *"Here the Lord indirectly says that if anyone wants to know the Absolute Truth, 'Here I am, present as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I am the Supreme.' One should know this. Although one cannot understand the inconceivable Lord who is personally present, He nonetheless exists. We can actually understand Kṛṣṇa, who is eternal, full of bliss and knowledge, simply by studying His words in Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . The impersonal Brahman can be conceived by persons who are already in the inferior energy of the Lord, but the Personality of Godhead cannot be conceived unless one is in the transcendental position. Because most men cannot understand Kṛṣṇa in His actual situation, out of His causeless mercy He descends to show favor to such speculators. Yet despite the Supreme Lord's uncommon activities, these speculators, due to contamination in the material energy, still think that the impersonal Brahman is the Supreme. Only the devotees, who are fully surrendered unto the Supreme Lord, can understand, by the grace of the Lord, that He is Kṛṣṇa. The devotees of the Lord do not bother about the impersonal Brahman conception of God. Their faith and devotion bring them to surrender immediately unto the Supreme Lord, and out of the causeless mercy of Kṛṣṇa, they can understand Kṛṣṇa. No one else can understand Him. So even great sages agree, 'What is ātmā ? What is the Supreme? It is He whom we have to worship.' " In my class I run into lot of arguments, especially from our Indian people, and this is one of the biggest arguments that people pose. They say: "Why are you calling yourselves Vaiṣṇavas and not Kṛṣṇayas?" Hmm? If I call Kṛṣṇa . . . I accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme Personality of Godhead, then the question comes to me, "Why are you calling yourself Vaiṣṇavas? Why not Kṛṣṇayas?" *That already is explained, that Kṛṣṇa or Rāma, Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa, They are all viṣṇu*-tattva . Therefore Viṣṇu is the common word for everyone. Just like candle. Everyone is candle, but still, this is first candle, this is second candle, this is third candle, like that. So Godhead means all viṣṇu-tattva . They are not jīva-tattva . So therefore those who are devotee of God, they are called Vaiṣṇava. This specific word Vaiṣṇava, that refers to Viṣṇu? Worshipers of Viṣṇu? Yes. Viṣṇu asyra devataḥ iti vaiṣṇavaḥ . Throughout *Vedas* also, Viṣṇu is the yajñeśvara . The supreme, yes. Yajño vai viṣṇuḥ . *Viṣṇur ārādhyate. Viṣṇur ārādhyate, nānyat tat*-toṣa-kāraṇam. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). Viṣṇor ārādhanam. Ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param . These are the śāstric . . . that viṣṇor ārādhana . Kṛṣṇa-ārādhana is also viṣṇu-ārādhana .' *In fact, even Brahma*-saṁhitā , Brahmājī says, *So "Viṣṇu is creating all the planetary systems. He's in His yoga*-nidrā . He is the original Govinda, and I worship Him." So that is why both names are used so synonymously. And that is why people are questioning me, and I have difficulty to answer them. Although I accept Kṛṣṇa as original Personality of Godhead, but how to explain to them? No, these are the references. *In here also. Should I read the verse? "All other incarnations are potentially situated in the original body of the primeval Lord. Thus, according to one's opinion, one may address Him as any one of the incarnations." Purport: "It is not contradictory for a devotee to call the Supreme Lord by any one of the various names of His plenary expansions, because the original Personality of Godhead includes all such categories. Since the plenary expansions exist within the original person, one may call Him by any of these names. In Śrī Caitanya*-bhāgavata Lord Caitanya says: 'I was lying asleep in the ocean of milk, but I was wakened by the call of Nāḍā, Śrī Advaita Prabhu.' Here the Lord refers to His form as Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu." *Translation: "Some say that Śrī Kṛṣṇa is directly Nara*-Nārāyaṇa, others say that He is directly Vāmana. Some say that Kṛṣṇa is the incarnation of Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. None of these statements is impossible. Each of them is as correct as the others. Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta states," Purport: 'According to the intimate relationships between Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the primeval Lord, and His devotees, the *Purāṇas* describe Him by various names. Sometimes He is called Nārāyaṇa, sometimes Upendra (Vāmana), the younger brother of Indra, King of heaven; and sometimes Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Sometimes He is called . . .' " *They are all viṣṇu*-tattva . *In fact, I remember very vividly that in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you wrote that it was Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu who came down to bless Dhruva Mahārāja when the planetary system started trembling due to his tapasya . Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. This is why people are questioning me continuously that, "How can you call Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead and not Viṣṇu?" And I say: "All are viṣṇu-tattva ." But it is very difficult to explain to them the actual position of Kṛṣṇa, because only through chanting . . . *That is decided by Bhāgavatam , ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). That tu , the name Kṛṣṇa, in the incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa is also included, but this Kṛṣṇa is the origin. So we have to take the direction. So that is also explained. Even if you say: "Kṛṣṇa is Vāmana," there is nothing wrong. If you believe that Kṛṣṇa is incarnation of Viṣṇu, there is nothing wrong. I don't believe that. No, no, others. Others . . . I believe Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Others. We simply accept, "Yes, it is all right." That's all. So that's a fact, because when Kṛṣṇa comes, He comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. I ask them then that, "Explain the three Viṣṇus—Mahā Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu and Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Even Viṣṇu Himself has expanded, what to talk of Kṛṣṇa." And then I ask them that "Kṛṣṇa came from which Viṣṇu? You tell me. If you can tell me that, then I will accept that Kṛṣṇa came from Viṣṇu. But if not, you have to accept my statement that Kṛṣṇa is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead. And you will not know Him unless you chant. Unless you chant." *Sometimes Mahā*-Viṣṇu wanted to see Kṛṣṇa. That is mentioned in the Bhāgavata , Yes Kṛṣṇa. And He took Arjuna with Him. *That's right. That's right. My father*-mother did their entire lifetime pūjā of Śrīnāthajī, Śrīnāthajī. Śrīnāthajī is Gopāla. Śrīnāthajī, we consider Him as Kṛṣṇa. Yes, He is Kṛṣṇa. He's our Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. It is decided by the court. Śrīnāthajī, there are . . . Mādhavendra Purī's worshipable Gopāla . . . he discovered Gopāla in Govardhana. That Gopāla was delivered to . . . who is the ācārya ? Vallabhācārya. And it is decided by the court that Śrīnāthajī originally belongs to Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. By the court. This Mādhavendra Purī is the spiritual master of Īśvara Purī. And Īśvara Purī is the spiritual master of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So from Mādhavendra Purī is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. So his Deity is Gopāla. That Gopāla is Śrīnāthajī. *When I was a young boy, eight years old, I went to Śrīnāthajī with my father*-mother, and there I had to take the brahma-samāna, brahma-smārana , which is the oath, taking of the oath in front of the Mahārāja and the priest of the Śrīnāthajī temple. And is that equal unto initiation, or is that just a ceremony by itself? No, initiation is another ceremony. What are the qualifications required for a person in working life like me, household like me, like myself, to get initiated? No, you can be initiated. There is no . . . because you are following the rules and regulations. Yes. Yes I am following. That's it. We initiate a person who follows the rules and regulations. I am following all your rules and regulations. Then you can be initiated. Yes. I think we have taken enough of your time, Prabhupāda. I would love to stay with you, and I would like to invite you to . . . Why don't you stay here in our temple? Probably I might. (laughs) Yes. We have got ladies' department and gentleman's department. You can stay. Indian man and wife: I would like to invite you to Poughkeepsie and stay with us if it is possible. Yes. How long it is? Hundred miles north from here. So by car? Yes, by car. It will take about four, five hours. No, two and a half hours. Two and a half hours. Traveling is little difficult for me. So there are many Indians? *There are about hundred and fifty Indian people. Thirty percent of them are Ārya*-samājīsts. They don't believe in anyone except doing havanas . Second edition of Muhammadans. Yes. *Ārya*-samājī means another edition of the Muhammadans. Some are Śiva followers, Śaivaites, of South India. *The Ārya*-samājīs, they do not believe in God, so how they are Śiva followers? Hodgepodge. No sāmajīs , but hodgepodge. Yes, it is. They don't know what is Personality of Godhead. Opportunity followers. Hodgepodge, that's right. Opportunists. Useless. They have no value. *Thirty percent of the Indian families, they are Ārya*-samājīsts, and twenty percent are South Indian Śaivaites. I get a lot of argument that, "Rāmacandrajī did the pūjā of Śivajī at Rāmeśvaram, so Śiva is greater than Rāma." I said: "Consider this, that Rāma was so humble to do the pūjā of Śivajī, but in Rāmastotrāṇi it says, rāma rāmeti rāmeti rāmerāma manorāne, śāstranāma tat tulyam śrī-rāma-nāma rāmarāme . That is what Śivajī is telling Pārvatī. Śivajī is telling Pārvatī in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19)." I say: "Why does Śivajī say that? Why is Śivajī sitting in samādhi ? Why not Kṛṣṇa sitting in samādhi ? Why not Rāma sitting in samādhi ? Why not Mahā-Viṣṇu sitting in samādhi ? Because Śivajī's position is to serve Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa as Rāma is so humble that He came and even did His devotee's pūjā ." Just like Kṛṣṇa is afraid of mother Yaśodā's rope. But that does not mean He is no longer the Supreme Lord. Exactly, exactly, exactly. He's afraid of "Mother, don't bind Me." So everyone is afraid of Kṛṣṇa, and He is afraid of His mother's rope. Yes. So does it mean Kṛṣṇa has become no more the Supreme? In fact, you might have heard of Satya Sai Baba in India. Yes. Now there are some people in our community there at Poughkeepsie, they are all followers of Satya Sai Baba, and they've been telling me that "Anyone you pray, Kṛṣṇa, Rāma, Viṣṇu, it comes to Satya Sai Baba." I said: "Don't tell me that nonsense," I said. (laughter) "Satya Sai Baba is not Kṛṣṇa, and don't tell me that." In fact for Guru Pūrṇimā they invited me to Satya Sai Baba's bhajanas . I said: "No, I have my guru . I'm very happy. Don't disturb me. I have Kṛṣṇa, I have my guru , and I have my path. I don't have to go to anybody's guru , and I don't have to take anyone's teachings." I say: "My *Gītā* is here, written by Prabhupāda. I follow it, and that's it. I don't have to have extraordinary brains to follow everyone's *Gītā* or everything else. Here is my path." In South America there was a great criticism? South Africa. South Africa. Yes. Of Satya Sai. One man, he challenged that he could prove that Sai Baba is a fake. So he's written so many letters to Sai Baba to challenge him, but he's never received a reply. So that paper gave this article criticizing Sai Baba like that, and other gurus , and then in the same paper there was a very nice article concerning our Jagannātha Cart Festival. So practically they were appreciating that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is bona fide and these other people are nonsense. Right. In fact, several people, even in our community in Poughkeepsie, received letters from Satya Sai Baba's followers that, "Here is a letter. Make ten copies and send the ten copies to ten different people. If you don't, Satya Sai Baba's thunderbolt will come and strike your family, and they'll be destroyed." Now no guru ever puts a thunderbolt on his devotee, and I said: "If that is a guru , I'll stay ten thousand miles away from him, because my guru is very kind and he'll bless me." I said: "No guru should ever put a thunderbolt on his devotee." Yes. Yes. (aside) You can turn towards this. *At Monticello in Catskill . . . I don't know if you know it. Monticello in Catskill Mountains here? Just about fifty*-sixty miles north, there is Muktananda. Muktananda. Muktananda. And he has got his retreat, and some of our people go there. And I heard from them that he is teaching . . . he is quoting *Gītā* . But if you go to his room, oṁ namaḥ śivāya . I said: "This is contradiction." I said: "If he is a Śiva follower, he should teach Śiva Purāṇa and not *Gītā* ." I said this is . . . But they are actually impersonalists. They neither follow Śiva nor Kṛṣṇa. They are impersonalists. Hypocrites. Their idea is the Absolute Truth is imperson. You can worship Him either as Śiva or as Kṛṣṇa, as you like. That is their philosophy. Yes. Yes. But this is the height of hypocrisy, to teach *Gītā* and to chant oṁ namaḥ śivāya . *No, because they say: "Either way, you become impersonal at the end. You brahma*-liṅ . You become one with Brahma. But before you become brahma-liṅ , you can imagine some form, either Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu or Śiva or Durgā, the same thing." That is their . . . In fact some of the arguments that I received were . . . "If you go to heaven, let's say, Vaikuṇṭha, then you become . . . you join the impersonal Brahman. Then you have nothing else to do." He says: "In material world we have family. We have something to do." I said: "If you believe in impersonalism, you have nothing to do. If you believe in personalism, you will serve the Lord there." Impersonal means if you have nothing to do, then you'll become mad. Exactly. And again you come back to this material world. Exactly. Now, Prabhupāda, I have taken too much of your time. I want to thank you very much. I humbly offer my obeisances. Thank you very much. I wish that I can continue your work. Please do. You'll be happy. Kṛṣṇa will make you happy. And huh . . . Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kas . . . (BG 18.69). (break) (end) Conversation -- July 18, 1976, New York *. . . 7*-UP with ice. *7*-UP? We'll have to send someone out for it. *Rādhā*-vallabha should go. So, so far I was there, it was successful. What was the next? Well, we were selling prasādam . I think we must have made somewhere between five and ten thousand dollars so far from prasādam sales. That's in addition to the free feast. We served a free feast to five thousand people when I left. Oh, you did not stay there? Well, still . . . it's so big. I estimated that through three to four hours there were thirty to forty thousand people that went in and out of that park. Still they are eating? They're still eating. Every piece of burfī we sold cost one dollar. What is that? Just a piece of burfī . . . Burfī ? Yeah, they were charging one dollar for one square. (laughs) That is good. And they were paying. Watermelon, for one slice, half a dollar. Fifty cents. (laughs) Fifty cents. The whole watermelon only cost one dollar. We got about thirty slices out of it. And books . . . People, they are simple here. They are not, about money matters, so much anxiety. They have got enough money that they don't care. They want, it is good taste, that's all. And why they did not give prasādam to that boy who was crazy . . . (indistinct) . . .? He got. I'm sure he must have gotten. Everybody was given free feast. Feast was very good. I tasted it. It was nicely prepared. How many preparations were there? Very hard to estimate. How many preparations in the feast? There was halavā, sabjī , very good sabjī by Ṛṣi Kumāra, rice, sweet, lemonade, popper—six preps. And purī , seven preps. Very nice. Very good preps, sumptuous. Oh, yes. Besides that, we had booths with watermelon, lassī and burfī . Lassī was selling very big. We could not supply it fast enough. We could not . . . all the time, those booths, there was a line. Because this was our first year, we were not expecting such a big turnout, so we did not have sufficient stands to meet everybody's needs. And the police officer has approved. Yes, the policemen sat down at the end of the park later on. You gave them prasādam ? I don't know. Why? I'm not sure. I didn't deal with them. They were dealt with by Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa. We'll bring them some present tomorrow. But they made the statement that, "If every parade was so beautiful and so nicely orderly, we would be very happy." Yes. They said it was very orderly. And that cannot be expected from any other group, only in this group. Such a huge crowd, and there was not a single instance of violence. Except that one time. One boy was punched out. *(referring to 7*-UP) I sent someone out. The procession was very well attended. Television. Oh, yes. ABC, CBS and Channel Five. All of the GBC men said it was the biggest single festival ever held in ISKCON's history. They all admitted that there was no festival ever held anywhere, even in India, no single festival in India. There was not any one day at any paṇḍāl where there was that many people who took prasādam and who attended such a long procession for two hours. I think in the beginning . . . (indistinct) . . . you were there. I was there. Yeah, that was pretty big, in 1969. That was gigantic. That was also very big. And there was also a crazy man. (laughs) Yes, that's right. We didn't give any invitation cards to our temple here, but we were making announcements. But I think people will come, anyway. They'll find out where our Hare Kṛṣṇa center is. They were distributing books, magazines. Books and magazines were given, but we didn't give any free cards. Usually we give free cards, but there was so much . . . What is that? They'll come and take. That's all. They'll come here, anyway. We didn't give any address card. Do you think people will come anyway? Oh, yes. Even without getting a card. No, this is better, to give a card. Many Indians were standing when I came. Did you see the Indians? I think at least three thousand Indians attended, minimum. A huge crowd of Indians. But the big thing was not the Indians, it was the American people. Yes. That's a good location for the festival, very important place, Washington Square Park. It's the center. Best thing would have been to keep the deities for a week there. That would not have been permitted. They only permitted us legally two hours for everything. That's why we were rushing everything. We only had two hours legally for the whole program. Yes, then there is no need. I heard people say: "We've never seen such a festival, never seen such a parade." I heard these comments. One man said . . . someone said: "What's going on?" and he said: "Oh, they have so many things going on here." They were very appreciative. And actually we could not put our full energy into it this year because we were so busy preparing the building simultaneously. And above all, the atmosphere, the weather, was very nice. Oh, yes, Kṛṣṇa has blessed us. Yes. (laughs) The breeze was there. We did not feel any . . . No discomfort. . . . fatigue. And there was nearly four hundred to five hundred devotees there. Yes. They will stay in the temple? Yes, they've been staying here. That's nice. There's no difficulty to accommodate them. Yes, Nārāyaṇa told me also. You know, Prabhupāda, I really feel like I should concentrate a lot of my preaching here in New York. Do that. What do you think? You told me . . . Oh, yes. Preaching is required, here or there. You once said: "A good businessman, if he knows how to do it, he can make more money sitting in one place . . ." No, no, no. Money is not our aim. Our aim is how people will understand Kṛṣṇa. He is just using that as an analogy for preaching. That if you have a good place, many people can be attracted, as many as moving around to many places. My Guru Mahārāja was in favor of preaching in the city because you can get many men. But do you think I should travel a lot, or what is the best thing? Both things should be done. Both. So if you . . . we will try to, er . . . we were hoping that you could give us another chance by coming back next year. Oh, yes. I'll come. But you do say that to a lot of different temples. But we will try to make this doubly big. Normal, so long I live, I must come. Really? Oh, yes. If we get on Fifth Avenue, you'll come again? Oh, yes. But we will double the amount of people, promise. And double the prasādam . We will double everything if you are here, Prabhupāda. That's all right. I can stay here also. I like especially New York, because I started the movement here. And because there are so many branches, if I go they'll become enlivened. Yes, right, just like we are enlivened. Everyone wants. Everyone wants you to come. That is natural. Question of love. Yes. New York was your second home after India. Yes, I say fatherland. India, motherland; this is fatherland. It is so nice that now in New York they are receiving you so nicely, this parade. Everyone is turning out to greet you. You are like the local boy who made good. So now they are receiving you very grandly. Yes, continue this program. People will be appreciative. I was thinking that we could make a point to have many big festivals here each year, not just this one, but many. Yes, at least three, four you can do. On Janmāṣṭamī, one; Gaura Pūrṇimā; *for Śrī Rāma*-navamī; *and one, Ratha*-yātrā. We can do New York for the spring, summer and fall. Yes. Because the weather is nice. *That coincides. Rāma*-navamī is spring, Ratha-yātrā is summer, and Janmāṣṭamī is fall. Gaura Pūrṇimā would be a bit difficult, though. Everybody is in India. That's not possible. We could do that inside. But those three . . . *Janmāṣṭamī, take Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa procession. On carts? No, on siṁhāsana , carried by hand. Palanquin. Palanquin, yes; no, the siṁhāsana as it is. Just like this is siṁhāsana , two big poles down, and tie it with . . . cut it with legs and carry, four men or eight men change. Change the soldiers. But not on carts, not on big chariot. *No. Chariot, only Ratha*-yātrā. *We'll make a big advertisement. We'll call it "Fall Festival." This festival, we called it "Summer Festival." See, people respond to that. If you say Ratha*-yātrā, they can't even pronounce the word. So we call it "Summer Festival," and they came. "Summer Festival" sounds very attractive. Everyone was saying: "Oh, that means for me, Summer Festival." "Ecstasy Outdoors." And Jayānanda should be congratulated. Oh, yes. Yes. You should give one letter, written. I . . . The carts looked magnificent. Two people worked the hardest, Prabhupāda . . . Jayānanda and all of his assistants, and Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa. He did all of the publicity and advertising. They should be congratulated. These two men, they worked the hardest. Yes. They worked for two months in a row, solid. The carts were very good, I think. Oh, yes, very nice, very strong. Big. Strong. Because you gave him that warning. When he heard that, oh, he became very . . . "I must do it right." We told him, "Now you will have to be replaced. Prabhupāda has said that 'Jayānanda's wheels will never hold up.' So we have to find a replacement for you." (Prabhupāda chuckles) So he took no chances. In San Francisco it also happened. Seems to me that he must be a great devotee of Lord Jagannātha. Same thing happened in London also. Really? The legs, wheels. That's why they gave difficulty, the authorities, because the wheels broke? No, that is wrong idea. Yes, that happened, though. I remember hearing about it. This Jayānanda, it seems, must be a very faithful devotee of Lord Jagannātha. Now, where these things will be kept? In our garage. No problem. That's one of the advantages of our garage. It's one block away and it has ten thousand square foot area, so we can store all the carts easily. Good storage is very important. And one block away in Manhattan is very unusual. Be careful that termite may not attack. Termites. Hmm. I'll make a note. There are not many termites in New York. We are fortunate. In Hawaii there are many termites. But here you don't have to usually protect wood against termites. Here the wintertime kills them, it gets so cold. Oh, yes, very cold. That kills them. Yes. There were devotees from Miami, Gainesville, Atlanta, Washington, Baltimore, Boston, Detroit, Toronto, Montreal, Los Angeles, Vancouver . . . South America South America—all over South America, they came from. Ah. A gigantic turnout of devotees. Very international group. *This could be like Lord Caitanya used to invite all His devotees to come and see Him at Ratha*-yātrā . . . Yes. Similarly, if you come here, we can invite . . . I'll come. . . . from all the temples. I'll come. Then you do not have to travel so much. And we will make all arrangements. This year is nothing. Next year we will make ten times more arrangements if you come, Prabhupāda. From anywhere, I will come. We will make all arrangements for you. Yes. That you do. This was only a trial. We have to perfect it now. We have learned that many . . . certain things did not go as perfectly as they could have, so now we are going to repair and make it perfect. Now, by this, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is advertised. Apart from all over the world, at least in New York it is that, "There is some movement." Prominent movement. Fifth Avenue. We were in charge of Fifth Avenue for one day. Practically we were controlling the Fifth Avenue today. Lord Jagannātha was. (laughs) Yes. If that side we get some small house, so that after going, eight days Jagannātha can remain there and festival going on, and then in the next week return . . . How small a house? Just to keep Jagannātha. Well, there's your old storefront. What? What about your old storefront, 26 Second Avenue? That is too small. Too small. I'll immediately get a house. And then you can utilize it for other purposes during the whole year. No, we can keep a downtown center. West Village. *That's a first*-class place for a center, the West Village. We can make many devotees there. We'll keep a small preaching center, maybe a restaurant, prasādam distribution. We'll call it the Guṇḍicā center. Guṇḍicā. We will call it Guṇḍicā. Yes, Guṇḍicā. Oh, that's a second restaurant. I think we should have a restaurant there, because a restaurant brings in a lot of people. No Deities. We won't install any Deities, just a preaching center, book distribution . . . Yes, book distribution, restaurant, pictures . . . Yes, lectures three times a week. Records, pictures, yes, like that. Whew! I wish that you could stay here all the time, Prabhupāda, because you could give us so many ideas, and we would simply act on them. If somehow we could convince you to stay here . . . I wish there was a way. There is no way to keep you here. No, I have no objection, but the other people . . . (laughter) Just like the Marwaris say: "Oh, I have no objection, but my brother, he may have objection." They . . . nobody has objection. Simply I am thinking that if I stay in one place and do not see the others . . . But this is a very central location. That I shall consider. They may come here. We will make . . . we have guest rooms. We can make an airline office by which they'll get a reduced rate, and they can travel here—travel agency—and they can come here very inexpensively to visit you, and we can give full accommodation. If somehow we can keep you here, we will do anything required. At least for a few months. That is all. Which month? During the summertime. July? July, August. Because now it is the rainy season in India. Because we do not want to inconvenience you as far as the weather goes. But I know now, June, even July, August, September now in India is not so good. October is very good in India. September is very pleasant in New York. I think you remember. These months are very nice. Somehow, if there was some way . . . I mean, we would preach so hard. At least sixteen hours a day we could work to serve you. I know I would not want to rest even. There must be some way that we can convince you to stay here. Because actually when you come here, you are preaching to millions. These reporters that have come, through them you have been preaching to millions. What about the reporters? They have published something? Now it'll come. The transcripts have been sent to them, so within the next week they should be coming. *I think one or two were waiting until after Ratha*-yātrā, to give a report on the festival as well. There were a lot of reporters, and they said that next year . . . they told us next year they're going to have full television cameras. We're going to have to erect a news, er . . . what is that called? Press, not a table, but a platform where they're going to put their cameras, and their reporters will sit above the whole crowd. They want to cover it, full. They were very amazed to see such a gigantic festival in New York itself. They never imagined such a thing in New York. The Christian cannot organize. (laughter) You saw them. The only thing they were carrying was one sign like this. The sign said: "Turn or Burn." It means turn to Jesus or burn. Turn or burn, burn in hell. That's their conception of God. Either God or burn in hell. We could give you a good rest here, also, Prabhupāda, because it's very easy to not . . . if the devotees could see you on Sunday, just like in the old days in Los Angeles . . . I mean everything could be very nicely done, and you could still visit the European centers when you finally return to India. I mean they are not making such a big thing that you couldn't come later on. Oh, boy. (laughing) A good canvasser. They say that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa is very convincing. When he wants to persuade someone, the person must do it. No, just it would give . . . there are so many good . . . of course, everywhere there are good devotees, but here there are so many strong preachers that if you stay here on the basis that they had to increase their preaching, we would double and triple our preaching. There's no question. We would throw out all considerations of inconvenience to ourselves and simply preach day and night. Especially New York, the people are ready for it. Like today, they have taken part very nicely. Even the policemen. Oh, they're so favorable. Rāmeśvara was commenting. He said he never saw . . . the climate of the people of New York is unique in America. They are very favorable. *So where is that man? Where he has gone? 7*-UP can be had anywhere. Well, it's Sunday evening. It's a bit difficult. He has to drive around in a car till he finds somewhere. *7*-UP? You want 7-UP? I can get it. I sent Śravaṇānanda out to get it. *At the Bloopie's they can get it. Rādhā*-vallabha got it. Not a can, though, just in a cup. But how do they get it into the cup? Buy the whole bottle. Bottle or . . . bottle or can. This store has it . . . they have the machine. What about Ninth Avenue? There's all those shops. *(whispering in background about 7*-UP) He already went to get it? If the government is going against our movement, then I'll have to stay. There is no alternative. In India. Because in that case I'll be hampered in India. He'll be what? Hampered. Yes, now the government has a policy that anyone they do not like, they put him in jail. In India. In India. Even that elderly gentleman, Narayan . . . Jaya Prakash Narayan. . . . put him in jail. He's so old. The result is that the Congress Party and Indira Gandhi will never be elected anymore. That is sure. Therefore he's postponing election. That's sure. Now they have lost all their credit. They will never be elected. Congress Party and Indira Gandhi finished. (break) They have lost all respectability. Yes. I think that your preaching here in New York . . . the thing is the preaching . . . More important. It's more important. I know that. In India they pay more attention to the building than to the person. Oh, yes. Our building can go on. You know, Prabhupāda, we have never . . . I mean, you started this movement here in New York, but this is the first time that we have a proper facility. Yes, in the last ten years there was no facility. No, Prabhupāda. That's why if you concentrated here, just by your presence, even if you only spoke to a few important gentlemen . . . we have so many senior men here. We could do wonderful things. Within two or three months we could expand our movement so broadly here in New York, I think the whole country would take note. I really feel that there is a great potential. That is right. That's why I'm not very eager to . . . Yes, this is fact. Let me see what Kṛṣṇa desires. The roof is very nice. Yes. For open air. It's very good for massage. And the view of the river is very healthy. If you can see the river from your house, it is to be understood that quarter is very nice. If you can see sky from your room, then it is to be understood the room is very nice. Well, all these things are here. We can see from the room the river. Yes. Otherwise from the roof. So it is very nice. I think also that right now there's a lot of devotees here, so it's a little taxing, but once the festival's over, they will all be returning to their respective centers. It will be much calmer. (break) In the night? I do not take anything at night. Morning, you are drinking milk? Is it . . .? Very good. Those cows are unique, that a cow can give her own weight in milk in eleven days. They are selling milk also. In our farm? Yes. Yes, we make fifteen hundred to two thousand dollars a month. So if there is more milk, you can sell more, get money. Yes, we're getting nearly two thousand dollars a month. *(7*-Up arrives) Is there ice? He was supposed to get some ice from the kitchen downstairs. It's cold. Who will open? You open it. I have just opened it. Is it cold enough? Jaya Prabhupāda. We call it, in India, lemonade. That was the original name, lemonade. And then all these new things, they changed all the names. It's good for bringing up gas. From my childhood I liked this lemonade. I think it was cost, in our childhood, three paisa . Three paisa! Now I think in India it costs one rupee. One rupee, twenty paisa . For Limka. *Of course, you get forty paisa back for the bottle, but it's between sixty*-five and eighty paisa after you get your money back. When we were travelling in Bhopal, we traveled there in the months of May and June. It was very hot. We were drinking seven bottles a day. Every hour. Every hour. (laughs) Lemonade. Gargamuni and I, we had to stop. We'd call it Limka. In India it is called Limka. When Westerners go to India, it is so hot the water just comes out, you know, sweat, all the time. Become dehydrated. Apart from that, you can't drink the water in India, so you have to drink Limka or something. It's safer to drink the lemonade . . . Yes. . . . than it is to drink the water. (end) Conversation -- July 18, 1976, New York *. . . 7*-UP with ice. *7*-UP? We'll have to send someone out for it. *Rādhā*-vallabha should go. So, so far I was there, it was successful. What was the next? Well, we were selling prasādam . I think we must have made somewhere between five and ten thousand dollars so far from prasādam sales. That's in addition to the free feast. We served a free feast to five thousand people when I left. Oh, you did not stay there? Well, still . . . it's so big. I estimated that through three to four hours there were thirty to forty thousand people that went in and out of that park. Still they are eating? They're still eating. Every piece of burfī we sold cost one dollar. What is that? Just a piece of burfī . . . Burfī ? Yeah, they were charging one dollar for one square. (laughs) That is good. And they were paying. Watermelon, for one slice, half a dollar. Fifty cents. (laughs) Fifty cents. The whole watermelon only cost one dollar. We got about thirty slices out of it. And books . . . People, they are simple here. They are not, about money matters, so much anxiety. They have got enough money that they don't care. They want, it is good taste, that's all. And why they did not give prasādam to that boy who was crazy . . . (indistinct) . . .? He got. I'm sure he must have gotten. Everybody was given free feast. Feast was very good. I tasted it. It was nicely prepared. How many preparations were there? Very hard to estimate. How many preparations in the feast? There was halavā, sabjī , very good sabjī by Ṛṣi Kumāra, rice, sweet, lemonade, popper—six preps. And purī , seven preps. Very nice. Very good preps, sumptuous. Oh, yes. Besides that, we had booths with watermelon, lassī and burfī . Lassī was selling very big. We could not supply it fast enough. We could not . . . all the time, those booths, there was a line. Because this was our first year, we were not expecting such a big turnout, so we did not have sufficient stands to meet everybody's needs. And the police officer has approved. Yes, the policemen sat down at the end of the park later on. You gave them prasādam ? I don't know. Why? I'm not sure. I didn't deal with them. They were dealt with by Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa. We'll bring them some present tomorrow. But they made the statement that, "If every parade was so beautiful and so nicely orderly, we would be very happy." Yes. They said it was very orderly. And that cannot be expected from any other group, only in this group. Such a huge crowd, and there was not a single instance of violence. Except that one time. One boy was punched out. *(referring to 7*-UP) I sent someone out. The procession was very well attended. Television. Oh, yes. ABC, CBS and Channel Five. All of the GBC men said it was the biggest single festival ever held in ISKCON's history. They all admitted that there was no festival ever held anywhere, even in India, no single festival in India. There was not any one day at any paṇḍāl where there was that many people who took prasādam and who attended such a long procession for two hours. I think in the beginning . . . (indistinct) . . . you were there. I was there. Yeah, that was pretty big, in 1969. That was gigantic. That was also very big. And there was also a crazy man. (laughs) Yes, that's right. We didn't give any invitation cards to our temple here, but we were making announcements. But I think people will come, anyway. They'll find out where our Hare Kṛṣṇa center is. They were distributing books, magazines. Books and magazines were given, but we didn't give any free cards. Usually we give free cards, but there was so much . . . What is that? They'll come and take. That's all. They'll come here, anyway. We didn't give any address card. Do you think people will come anyway? Oh, yes. Even without getting a card. No, this is better, to give a card. Many Indians were standing when I came. Did you see the Indians? I think at least three thousand Indians attended, minimum. A huge crowd of Indians. But the big thing was not the Indians, it was the American people. Yes. That's a good location for the festival, very important place, Washington Square Park. It's the center. Best thing would have been to keep the deities for a week there. That would not have been permitted. They only permitted us legally two hours for everything. That's why we were rushing everything. We only had two hours legally for the whole program. Yes, then there is no need. I heard people say: "We've never seen such a festival, never seen such a parade." I heard these comments. One man said . . . someone said: "What's going on?" and he said: "Oh, they have so many things going on here." They were very appreciative. And actually we could not put our full energy into it this year because we were so busy preparing the building simultaneously. And above all, the atmosphere, the weather, was very nice. Oh, yes, Kṛṣṇa has blessed us. Yes. (laughs) The breeze was there. We did not feel any . . . No discomfort. . . . fatigue. And there was nearly four hundred to five hundred devotees there. Yes. They will stay in the temple? Yes, they've been staying here. That's nice. There's no difficulty to accommodate them. Yes, Nārāyaṇa told me also. You know, Prabhupāda, I really feel like I should concentrate a lot of my preaching here in New York. Do that. What do you think? You told me . . . Oh, yes. Preaching is required, here or there. You once said: "A good businessman, if he knows how to do it, he can make more money sitting in one place . . ." No, no, no. Money is not our aim. Our aim is how people will understand Kṛṣṇa. He is just using that as an analogy for preaching. That if you have a good place, many people can be attracted, as many as moving around to many places. My Guru Mahārāja was in favor of preaching in the city because you can get many men. But do you think I should travel a lot, or what is the best thing? Both things should be done. Both. So if you . . . we will try to, er . . . we were hoping that you could give us another chance by coming back next year. Oh, yes. I'll come. But you do say that to a lot of different temples. But we will try to make this doubly big. Normal, so long I live, I must come. Really? Oh, yes. If we get on Fifth Avenue, you'll come again? Oh, yes. But we will double the amount of people, promise. And double the prasādam . We will double everything if you are here, Prabhupāda. That's all right. I can stay here also. I like especially New York, because I started the movement here. And because there are so many branches, if I go they'll become enlivened. Yes, right, just like we are enlivened. Everyone wants. Everyone wants you to come. That is natural. Question of love. Yes. New York was your second home after India. Yes, I say fatherland. India, motherland; this is fatherland. It is so nice that now in New York they are receiving you so nicely, this parade. Everyone is turning out to greet you. You are like the local boy who made good. So now they are receiving you very grandly. Yes, continue this program. People will be appreciative. I was thinking that we could make a point to have many big festivals here each year, not just this one, but many. Yes, at least three, four you can do. On Janmāṣṭamī, one; Gaura Pūrṇimā; *for Śrī Rāma*-navamī; *and one, Ratha*-yātrā. We can do New York for the spring, summer and fall. Yes. Because the weather is nice. *That coincides. Rāma*-navamī is spring, Ratha-yātrā is summer, and Janmāṣṭamī is fall. Gaura Pūrṇimā would be a bit difficult, though. Everybody is in India. That's not possible. We could do that inside. But those three . . . *Janmāṣṭamī, take Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa procession. On carts? No, on siṁhāsana , carried by hand. Palanquin. Palanquin, yes; no, the siṁhāsana as it is. Just like this is siṁhāsana , two big poles down, and tie it with . . . cut it with legs and carry, four men or eight men change. Change the soldiers. But not on carts, not on big chariot. *No. Chariot, only Ratha*-yātrā. *We'll make a big advertisement. We'll call it "Fall Festival." This festival, we called it "Summer Festival." See, people respond to that. If you say Ratha*-yātrā, they can't even pronounce the word. So we call it "Summer Festival," and they came. "Summer Festival" sounds very attractive. Everyone was saying: "Oh, that means for me, Summer Festival." "Ecstasy Outdoors." And Jayānanda should be congratulated. Oh, yes. Yes. You should give one letter, written. I . . . The carts looked magnificent. Two people worked the hardest, Prabhupāda . . . Jayānanda and all of his assistants, and Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa. He did all of the publicity and advertising. They should be congratulated. These two men, they worked the hardest. Yes. They worked for two months in a row, solid. The carts were very good, I think. Oh, yes, very nice, very strong. Big. Strong. Because you gave him that warning. When he heard that, oh, he became very . . . "I must do it right." We told him, "Now you will have to be replaced. Prabhupāda has said that 'Jayānanda's wheels will never hold up.' So we have to find a replacement for you." (Prabhupāda chuckles) So he took no chances. In San Francisco it also happened. Seems to me that he must be a great devotee of Lord Jagannātha. Same thing happened in London also. Really? The legs, wheels. That's why they gave difficulty, the authorities, because the wheels broke? No, that is wrong idea. Yes, that happened, though. I remember hearing about it. This Jayānanda, it seems, must be a very faithful devotee of Lord Jagannātha. Now, where these things will be kept? In our garage. No problem. That's one of the advantages of our garage. It's one block away and it has ten thousand square foot area, so we can store all the carts easily. Good storage is very important. And one block away in Manhattan is very unusual. Be careful that termite may not attack. Termites. Hmm. I'll make a note. There are not many termites in New York. We are fortunate. In Hawaii there are many termites. But here you don't have to usually protect wood against termites. Here the wintertime kills them, it gets so cold. Oh, yes, very cold. That kills them. Yes. There were devotees from Miami, Gainesville, Atlanta, Washington, Baltimore, Boston, Detroit, Toronto, Montreal, Los Angeles, Vancouver . . . South America South America—all over South America, they came from. Ah. A gigantic turnout of devotees. Very international group. *This could be like Lord Caitanya used to invite all His devotees to come and see Him at Ratha*-yātrā . . . Yes. Similarly, if you come here, we can invite . . . I'll come. . . . from all the temples. I'll come. Then you do not have to travel so much. And we will make all arrangements. This year is nothing. Next year we will make ten times more arrangements if you come, Prabhupāda. From anywhere, I will come. We will make all arrangements for you. Yes. That you do. This was only a trial. We have to perfect it now. We have learned that many . . . certain things did not go as perfectly as they could have, so now we are going to repair and make it perfect. Now, by this, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is advertised. Apart from all over the world, at least in New York it is that, "There is some movement." Prominent movement. Fifth Avenue. We were in charge of Fifth Avenue for one day. Practically we were controlling the Fifth Avenue today. Lord Jagannātha was. (laughs) Yes. If that side we get some small house, so that after going, eight days Jagannātha can remain there and festival going on, and then in the next week return . . . How small a house? Just to keep Jagannātha. Well, there's your old storefront. What? What about your old storefront, 26 Second Avenue? That is too small. Too small. I'll immediately get a house. And then you can utilize it for other purposes during the whole year. No, we can keep a downtown center. West Village. *That's a first*-class place for a center, the West Village. We can make many devotees there. We'll keep a small preaching center, maybe a restaurant, prasādam distribution. We'll call it the Guṇḍicā center. Guṇḍicā. We will call it Guṇḍicā. Yes, Guṇḍicā. Oh, that's a second restaurant. I think we should have a restaurant there, because a restaurant brings in a lot of people. No Deities. We won't install any Deities, just a preaching center, book distribution . . . Yes, book distribution, restaurant, pictures . . . Yes, lectures three times a week. Records, pictures, yes, like that. Whew! I wish that you could stay here all the time, Prabhupāda, because you could give us so many ideas, and we would simply act on them. If somehow we could convince you to stay here . . . I wish there was a way. There is no way to keep you here. No, I have no objection, but the other people . . . (laughter) Just like the Marwaris say: "Oh, I have no objection, but my brother, he may have objection." They . . . nobody has objection. Simply I am thinking that if I stay in one place and do not see the others . . . But this is a very central location. That I shall consider. They may come here. We will make . . . we have guest rooms. We can make an airline office by which they'll get a reduced rate, and they can travel here—travel agency—and they can come here very inexpensively to visit you, and we can give full accommodation. If somehow we can keep you here, we will do anything required. At least for a few months. That is all. Which month? During the summertime. July? July, August. Because now it is the rainy season in India. Because we do not want to inconvenience you as far as the weather goes. But I know now, June, even July, August, September now in India is not so good. October is very good in India. September is very pleasant in New York. I think you remember. These months are very nice. Somehow, if there was some way . . . I mean, we would preach so hard. At least sixteen hours a day we could work to serve you. I know I would not want to rest even. There must be some way that we can convince you to stay here. Because actually when you come here, you are preaching to millions. These reporters that have come, through them you have been preaching to millions. What about the reporters? They have published something? Now it'll come. The transcripts have been sent to them, so within the next week they should be coming. *I think one or two were waiting until after Ratha*-yātrā, to give a report on the festival as well. There were a lot of reporters, and they said that next year . . . they told us next year they're going to have full television cameras. We're going to have to erect a news, er . . . what is that called? Press, not a table, but a platform where they're going to put their cameras, and their reporters will sit above the whole crowd. They want to cover it, full. They were very amazed to see such a gigantic festival in New York itself. They never imagined such a thing in New York. The Christian cannot organize. (laughter) You saw them. The only thing they were carrying was one sign like this. The sign said: "Turn or Burn." It means turn to Jesus or burn. Turn or burn, burn in hell. That's their conception of God. Either God or burn in hell. We could give you a good rest here, also, Prabhupāda, because it's very easy to not . . . if the devotees could see you on Sunday, just like in the old days in Los Angeles . . . I mean everything could be very nicely done, and you could still visit the European centers when you finally return to India. I mean they are not making such a big thing that you couldn't come later on. Oh, boy. (laughing) A good canvasser. They say that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa is very convincing. When he wants to persuade someone, the person must do it. No, just it would give . . . there are so many good . . . of course, everywhere there are good devotees, but here there are so many strong preachers that if you stay here on the basis that they had to increase their preaching, we would double and triple our preaching. There's no question. We would throw out all considerations of inconvenience to ourselves and simply preach day and night. Especially New York, the people are ready for it. Like today, they have taken part very nicely. Even the policemen. Oh, they're so favorable. Rāmeśvara was commenting. He said he never saw . . . the climate of the people of New York is unique in America. They are very favorable. *So where is that man? Where he has gone? 7*-UP can be had anywhere. Well, it's Sunday evening. It's a bit difficult. He has to drive around in a car till he finds somewhere. *7*-UP? You want 7-UP? I can get it. I sent Śravaṇānanda out to get it. *At the Bloopie's they can get it. Rādhā*-vallabha got it. Not a can, though, just in a cup. But how do they get it into the cup? Buy the whole bottle. Bottle or . . . bottle or can. This store has it . . . they have the machine. What about Ninth Avenue? There's all those shops. *(whispering in background about 7*-UP) He already went to get it? If the government is going against our movement, then I'll have to stay. There is no alternative. In India. Because in that case I'll be hampered in India. He'll be what? Hampered. Yes, now the government has a policy that anyone they do not like, they put him in jail. In India. In India. Even that elderly gentleman, Narayan . . . Jaya Prakash Narayan. . . . put him in jail. He's so old. The result is that the Congress Party and Indira Gandhi will never be elected anymore. That is sure. Therefore he's postponing election. That's sure. Now they have lost all their credit. They will never be elected. Congress Party and Indira Gandhi finished. (break) They have lost all respectability. Yes. I think that your preaching here in New York . . . the thing is the preaching . . . More important. It's more important. I know that. In India they pay more attention to the building than to the person. Oh, yes. Our building can go on. You know, Prabhupāda, we have never . . . I mean, you started this movement here in New York, but this is the first time that we have a proper facility. Yes, in the last ten years there was no facility. No, Prabhupāda. That's why if you concentrated here, just by your presence, even if you only spoke to a few important gentlemen . . . we have so many senior men here. We could do wonderful things. Within two or three months we could expand our movement so broadly here in New York, I think the whole country would take note. I really feel that there is a great potential. That is right. That's why I'm not very eager to . . . Yes, this is fact. Let me see what Kṛṣṇa desires. The roof is very nice. Yes. For open air. It's very good for massage. And the view of the river is very healthy. If you can see the river from your house, it is to be understood that quarter is very nice. If you can see sky from your room, then it is to be understood the room is very nice. Well, all these things are here. We can see from the room the river. Yes. Otherwise from the roof. So it is very nice. I think also that right now there's a lot of devotees here, so it's a little taxing, but once the festival's over, they will all be returning to their respective centers. It will be much calmer. (break) In the night? I do not take anything at night. Morning, you are drinking milk? Is it . . .? Very good. Those cows are unique, that a cow can give her own weight in milk in eleven days. They are selling milk also. In our farm? Yes. Yes, we make fifteen hundred to two thousand dollars a month. So if there is more milk, you can sell more, get money. Yes, we're getting nearly two thousand dollars a month. *(7*-Up arrives) Is there ice? He was supposed to get some ice from the kitchen downstairs. It's cold. Who will open? You open it. I have just opened it. Is it cold enough? Jaya Prabhupāda. We call it, in India, lemonade. That was the original name, lemonade. And then all these new things, they changed all the names. It's good for bringing up gas. From my childhood I liked this lemonade. I think it was cost, in our childhood, three paisa . Three paisa! Now I think in India it costs one rupee. One rupee, twenty paisa . For Limka. *Of course, you get forty paisa back for the bottle, but it's between sixty*-five and eighty paisa after you get your money back. When we were travelling in Bhopal, we traveled there in the months of May and June. It was very hot. We were drinking seven bottles a day. Every hour. Every hour. (laughs) Lemonade. Gargamuni and I, we had to stop. We'd call it Limka. In India it is called Limka. When Westerners go to India, it is so hot the water just comes out, you know, sweat, all the time. Become dehydrated. Apart from that, you can't drink the water in India, so you have to drink Limka or something. It's safer to drink the lemonade . . . Yes. . . . than it is to drink the water. (end) Conversation A -- July 19, 1976, New York We haven't gotten all of the newspapers yet, but we did get some of them. This is the very popular Daily News . What is the circulation of the Daily News ? Few million, isn't it? Millions. It's in the millions. It's the largest in New York. Largest circulation. So they gave us the center section. That's the big . . . the most popular section. This side. Oh. "Fifth Avenue, Where East Meets West." Very good idea. Very good idea. Very nice. The . . . (indistinct) . . . selected. The other pictures, I think some are from the Olympics. Very prominent. The center section is . . . next to the front page, the center section is very . . . the most popular page in the paper, because it has interesting pictures. You can send one, this cutting, to Mr. Bhajaj, "Fifth Avenue, Where East Meets West." Very good. Send one to Māyāpur as well? Huh? You can send to many place, but this title is very nice. This is the point. This is the point. East, as I say always, the lame man meets the blind man. Together they'll do wonderful. And different they cannot do anything. He is blind; he is lame. But they join together, Indian culture and American money, they will save the whole world. Here is the . . . money required. (laughter) You want to hear what they wrote? Should I read to you what they said? Yes, yes. *Very nicely written. "With everybody pulling together and everybody puffing together, a huge float is tugged down Fifth Avenue yesterday during the first Ratha*-yātrā Parade of International Society for Krishna Consciousness. The parade moved south from Central Park to Washington Square Park, where a free feast, music, art, dance and theater festival was held. According to a spokesperson, 'Ratha-yātrā is a time when people come to dance, sing and feast amidst a sublime atmosphere of bright flags, festoons, banners, garlands, flowers and incense, simply to feel the poetry and blissful nature of life.' " Very good. This is blissful nature. Yes, you can see the devotees pulling the float. Read the caption in the middle. And they have created a civilization: wine, woman, gambling and meat. *Here's what it said: "The multicolored floats contrast with Fifth Avenue's concrete canyon as parade passes Thirty*-fourth Street yesterday." Here it says: "An idyllic mood in saffron robes." Everything is approved. Oh, yes, highly approved. Then there's another, New York Times. Oh, that is one very important. Beautiful photograph. "East Meets West in Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." "Feat." ". . . feat." Fete. Fete. You must purchase some copies. We shall send to India. Look at that picture, it's very clear. Should I read you this article? Yes. *This one is not . . . it's not bad, but it's not so accurate. "In size it was dwarfed by 'Operation Sale.' In popular concern it was outweighed by the Democratic National Convention. But for hundreds of Hare Kṛṣṇa followers, including many Indian immigrants to New York, yesterday's Ratha*-yātrā festival was by far the most important event in an eventful month. Pulling three brightly-colored chariots down Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, the religious group's adherents were celebrating one of the oldest holy days of the Indian calendar, the feast of Jagannātha, the Lord of the Universe, according to Kṛṣṇa doctrine. Most of the participants in the parade were young Westerners, followers from as far away as Caracas and Montreal. But the crowd included hundreds of Indians, who brought the basic Kṛṣṇa faith with them from Bombay and Calcutta." That's nice. Yes, that's nice. "Like many other immigrant groups who preserved their forms of worship once they came to America, the Indians who watched or participated in the parade were pleased to see that they could keep the faith even in New York City." (laughter) These rascals, let them come, they become bara sāhīb. Become what? Bara sāhīb. Bara sāhīb , big Westerner. "While Hare Kṛṣṇa propounds doctrines of world renunciation common to other varieties of the Hindu faith, the sect, officially known as the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, was founded in 1965 by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, whose fame as a guru came only after he arrived in the United States in the same year. For most of the Indians watching the parade, however, Hare Kṛṣṇa was close enough to their brand of Hinduism to make them feel at home." That's good. It means that we're not a light cult. It means we have a great tradition. Yes, it's actually good. They're recognizing that. " 'It's surprising that you find this right in New York City. It's our way of life,' said Nagan Patel, a civil engineer from Jersey City, who emmigrated from Bombay. 'We love New York City and America. It's the most beautiful place in the world. No other country will give such freedom for our own ceremony.' " That's a fact. That I say always. *"But the Kṛṣṇa people were not entirely free of harassment. Along the parade route three men, including one who said he was an Evangelical Christian minister, jeered at the parade and called on parade watchers to become Christians. 'Idol worship. This is absolutely ridiculous. Read the Bible,' cried one man, who would identify himself only as a normal Christian. There was a brief scuffle when an Indian immigrant tried to tear a large placard out of the hands of another heckler. The placard read 'Turn or Burn.' The police broke things up but made no arrests. 'They are insulting us,' said the Kṛṣṇa follower who declined to identify himself. 'I'm a devotee of Kṛṣṇa and Christ. These people who are doing this in the name of Christ are criminals.' " Very strong statement. "Except for the hecklers, however, the parade was generally very well received by passersby, who enjoyed the three multi*-hued floats, the sun, and the chanting and dancing of the young Kṛṣṇa marchers. 'I think it's great,' said Tyrone Adams of Philadelphia, who was paying a visit to his home town of Englewood, New Jersey. 'I'm not religious, but they're all happy and dancing, and that is what life is all about.' " Even a nonreligious person said that. "In Washington Square a crowd of about three thousand, many of whom were there as part of the normal Sunday afternoon activities, heard Swami Prabhupāda deliver a lecture. Later, the crowd was served a free vegetarian feast. Along the side, Kṛṣṇa followers sold Indian sweets, Kṛṣṇa scriptures, and what one speaker described as 'transcendental paraphernalia.' " Very good. Yes, it's a good article. For the Times especially it's good, because they are very conservative. The Times first published about my activities from Tompkinson Square. They first published. Now over the television last night there was gigantic coverage. CBS, which is the most important station, gave two and a half minutes' coverage. Wow. They have very big program, and the reporters—Dhṛṣṭadyumna was watching—he said that the reporters through the whole news, they were very grim, and then they, because they read what they're saying, and suddenly their faces lit up, and they said: "And Hare Kṛṣṇa had a parade today!" And then they described the whole parade. And they loved it. They said it was very well received. CBS reported, ABC reported, NBC reported, Channel Five gave big coverage—all the television networks gave a big coverage. It was very well publicized, with a lot of coverage and photos. They were showing movies of the parade, of you lecturing, of the crowds that were gathered taking prasādam . Somebody should send this clippings, not our men, to . . . To your Godbrothers. To Indira Gandhi. Some Indian people. She is little anxious to cooperate with Americans, because the most criticism for his (her) present act . . . and everyone will criticize. The Americans have criticized like anything. And they are thinking that the American people are capturing that . . . actually, the nation is under danger. (break) (end) Conversation A -- July 19, 1976, New York We haven't gotten all of the newspapers yet, but we did get some of them. This is the very popular Daily News . What is the circulation of the Daily News ? Few million, isn't it? Millions. It's in the millions. It's the largest in New York. Largest circulation. So they gave us the center section. That's the big . . . the most popular section. This side. Oh. "Fifth Avenue, Where East Meets West." Very good idea. Very good idea. Very nice. The . . . (indistinct) . . . selected. The other pictures, I think some are from the Olympics. Very prominent. The center section is . . . next to the front page, the center section is very . . . the most popular page in the paper, because it has interesting pictures. You can send one, this cutting, to Mr. Bhajaj, "Fifth Avenue, Where East Meets West." Very good. Send one to Māyāpur as well? Huh? You can send to many place, but this title is very nice. This is the point. This is the point. East, as I say always, the lame man meets the blind man. Together they'll do wonderful. And different they cannot do anything. He is blind; he is lame. But they join together, Indian culture and American money, they will save the whole world. Here is the . . . money required. (laughter) You want to hear what they wrote? Should I read to you what they said? Yes, yes. *Very nicely written. "With everybody pulling together and everybody puffing together, a huge float is tugged down Fifth Avenue yesterday during the first Ratha*-yātrā Parade of International Society for Krishna Consciousness. The parade moved south from Central Park to Washington Square Park, where a free feast, music, art, dance and theater festival was held. According to a spokesperson, 'Ratha-yātrā is a time when people come to dance, sing and feast amidst a sublime atmosphere of bright flags, festoons, banners, garlands, flowers and incense, simply to feel the poetry and blissful nature of life.' " Very good. This is blissful nature. Yes, you can see the devotees pulling the float. Read the caption in the middle. And they have created a civilization: wine, woman, gambling and meat. *Here's what it said: "The multicolored floats contrast with Fifth Avenue's concrete canyon as parade passes Thirty*-fourth Street yesterday." Here it says: "An idyllic mood in saffron robes." Everything is approved. Oh, yes, highly approved. Then there's another, New York Times. Oh, that is one very important. Beautiful photograph. "East Meets West in Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." "Feat." ". . . feat." Fete. Fete. You must purchase some copies. We shall send to India. Look at that picture, it's very clear. Should I read you this article? Yes. *This one is not . . . it's not bad, but it's not so accurate. "In size it was dwarfed by 'Operation Sale.' In popular concern it was outweighed by the Democratic National Convention. But for hundreds of Hare Kṛṣṇa followers, including many Indian immigrants to New York, yesterday's Ratha*-yātrā festival was by far the most important event in an eventful month. Pulling three brightly-colored chariots down Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, the religious group's adherents were celebrating one of the oldest holy days of the Indian calendar, the feast of Jagannātha, the Lord of the Universe, according to Kṛṣṇa doctrine. Most of the participants in the parade were young Westerners, followers from as far away as Caracas and Montreal. But the crowd included hundreds of Indians, who brought the basic Kṛṣṇa faith with them from Bombay and Calcutta." That's nice. Yes, that's nice. "Like many other immigrant groups who preserved their forms of worship once they came to America, the Indians who watched or participated in the parade were pleased to see that they could keep the faith even in New York City." (laughter) These rascals, let them come, they become bara sāhīb. Become what? Bara sāhīb. Bara sāhīb , big Westerner. "While Hare Kṛṣṇa propounds doctrines of world renunciation common to other varieties of the Hindu faith, the sect, officially known as the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, was founded in 1965 by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, whose fame as a guru came only after he arrived in the United States in the same year. For most of the Indians watching the parade, however, Hare Kṛṣṇa was close enough to their brand of Hinduism to make them feel at home." That's good. It means that we're not a light cult. It means we have a great tradition. Yes, it's actually good. They're recognizing that. " 'It's surprising that you find this right in New York City. It's our way of life,' said Nagan Patel, a civil engineer from Jersey City, who emmigrated from Bombay. 'We love New York City and America. It's the most beautiful place in the world. No other country will give such freedom for our own ceremony.' " That's a fact. That I say always. *"But the Kṛṣṇa people were not entirely free of harassment. Along the parade route three men, including one who said he was an Evangelical Christian minister, jeered at the parade and called on parade watchers to become Christians. 'Idol worship. This is absolutely ridiculous. Read the Bible,' cried one man, who would identify himself only as a normal Christian. There was a brief scuffle when an Indian immigrant tried to tear a large placard out of the hands of another heckler. The placard read 'Turn or Burn.' The police broke things up but made no arrests. 'They are insulting us,' said the Kṛṣṇa follower who declined to identify himself. 'I'm a devotee of Kṛṣṇa and Christ. These people who are doing this in the name of Christ are criminals.' " Very strong statement. "Except for the hecklers, however, the parade was generally very well received by passersby, who enjoyed the three multi*-hued floats, the sun, and the chanting and dancing of the young Kṛṣṇa marchers. 'I think it's great,' said Tyrone Adams of Philadelphia, who was paying a visit to his home town of Englewood, New Jersey. 'I'm not religious, but they're all happy and dancing, and that is what life is all about.' " Even a nonreligious person said that. "In Washington Square a crowd of about three thousand, many of whom were there as part of the normal Sunday afternoon activities, heard Swami Prabhupāda deliver a lecture. Later, the crowd was served a free vegetarian feast. Along the side, Kṛṣṇa followers sold Indian sweets, Kṛṣṇa scriptures, and what one speaker described as 'transcendental paraphernalia.' " Very good. Yes, it's a good article. For the Times especially it's good, because they are very conservative. The Times first published about my activities from Tompkinson Square. They first published. Now over the television last night there was gigantic coverage. CBS, which is the most important station, gave two and a half minutes' coverage. Wow. They have very big program, and the reporters—Dhṛṣṭadyumna was watching—he said that the reporters through the whole news, they were very grim, and then they, because they read what they're saying, and suddenly their faces lit up, and they said: "And Hare Kṛṣṇa had a parade today!" And then they described the whole parade. And they loved it. They said it was very well received. CBS reported, ABC reported, NBC reported, Channel Five gave big coverage—all the television networks gave a big coverage. It was very well publicized, with a lot of coverage and photos. They were showing movies of the parade, of you lecturing, of the crowds that were gathered taking prasādam . Somebody should send this clippings, not our men, to . . . To your Godbrothers. To Indira Gandhi. Some Indian people. She is little anxious to cooperate with Americans, because the most criticism for his (her) present act . . . and everyone will criticize. The Americans have criticized like anything. And they are thinking that the American people are capturing that . . . actually, the nation is under danger. (break) (end) Conversation -- July 20, 1976, New York (in car) Appreciating. They have so many different groups, religious groups and minority groups from other parts of the world, they call it a melting pot. So they accept us because they've accepted so many others, the Puerto Ricans, the blacks, so similarly they are accepting us. Who? This city, the people of this city. America. New York. New York. In other places they consider us to be very foreign, alien. But here there are so many foreigners, so it fits right in. This is the Tenth Street? No. This is Amsterdam Avenue. Oh. Ninth Avenue turns into Amsterdam Avenue. *Next year at the Ratha*-yātrā they are planning to have a press box, so that the newspapermen and the television cameras can come and film the activities on stage also. They can film your lecture, they can film the play. We're also thinking to have a press box along the parade route, so that they can stay in an elevated position and take photos. We collected a total of about seven thousand dollars, Prabhupāda. And what you spent? Spent ten thousand. But we also collected another fifteen thousand in advertisements. So total collection was about twenty, over twenty thousand, and expenditure was under ten. Good business. (laughter) And that was the first year. (chants japa ) Next year we will collect sixty to seventy thousand dollars . . . Whew! . . . easily, I'm sure, with advertisements. So where the profit is going? Where is the profit? Into distributing more books. That's nice, very good. That is our only business. (break) . . . completely cleansed all of the grounds throughout the night, Prabhupāda. Where? Last night all night long we were cleaning up the grounds. At the park. At the park. One woman who lives next to the park said: "In all my years of living here I've never seen such a wonderful festival held." Yes . . . (indistinct) And one . . . the official of the park, who's in charge of the park, was on CBS television, and he said that, "You see? Spiritual life is still present in Washington Square Park." He made that comment. He said: "We are very proud to be able to say that in our . . . this park was founded hundreds of years ago, when America was religious." And he said, "Spiritual life is still present in Washington Square Park." So why not ask the mayor to construct a temple there? (laughter) I don't think they'd agree. People will come. Maybe, but, ah, I don't think they will agree to that. They're not that spiritual. No, in America you have to raise your own money for temples. You cannot get the city to build it. No, you can't get their land either, not for a building like that. You can put up a hospital maybe. Thing is, park space is so short in that area of the city that they . . . I don't think they'd give it up for a building. Prabhupāda told us yesterday that we should rent a small building downtown in that area and call it Guṇḍicā, so that Lord Jagannātha will stay down there. For one week. For one week. And we'll keep a restaurant there. And then they'll again come in procession. Wow! Yes, two festivals. I was told that there was another procession last night bringing the car back, and all the night persons—there's a different whole segment of the city, people who come at night . . . Bums. . . . who stay up all night. And they were there, hundreds of people following the car back in the nighttime. *It took about seven hours to bring the carts back. All night they worked. Jayānanda was slaving out there, and Ādi*-keśa Swami. Ādi-keśa finally got back at five in the morning, collapsed on the carts. He was exhausted. They should be given some recommendations in writing. *Give Ādi*-keśa a recommendation. This will be gigantic, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'll tell you one thing, that the first way we go, next year when we go one way, it will get huge publicity, and that will be the publicity for the going return trip. Because it will be so publicized, even more people will come on the return ride. On the return you simply go to the temple and drop the Deities off? *Yes. We'll go to Fifty*-ninth Street and have another feast at the park. Yes, there has to be another feast. We'll have the feast. We may have buses, we'll have all our buses, and we'll bus the people to the temple. We could rent buses, Rāmeśvara. *Return Ratha*-yātrā. Ulṭā-ratha . What is it called? *Ulṭā*-ratha . *Ulṭā*-ratha. Should the actors perform the Herā Pañcamī ceremony? That is in the middle. In the middle. Do that. So they can do that? (break) . . . pañcamī , where they carry the goddess of fortune on an opulent palanquin. Actually, New York doesn't have a name. We have to give it some name. We call Los Angeles as New Dvārakā. Here it's just New York. (break) *(whispering) . . . Rādhā*-vallabha. Huh? *Rādhā*-vallabha. . . . monkey. What is that? *Rādhā*-vallabha is your faithful servant. Guarding you. (break) (walking) We were talking about the pictures, the paintings in the books. We were mentioning how professors liked the paintings and how sometimes they actually buy the books because of the nice paintings. Sometimes when we go back to see a professor or librarian a year later, we'll notice that they'll have a catalogue up on the bulletin board. Sometimes they'll take the cover of the jacket of the book and they'll put it on display. And now we're getting recognized when we go to some of the colleges. They say: "Oh, you're the man with the nice colorful books. We've seen your catalogue, we got one in the mail. We've seen your books, and they're very attractive books." And our men are getting known now that because we've been to most of the schools in America once, and they say: "You're the men who don't leave until your books are in the library." Even if the school is closed, our men, now, they'll go to the professor's home and they'll get him out of bed to come to see the librarian or to write a notice or to call the librarian. So even if the school is closed, the books are still being placed, and when the students come the books are in the library. (break) (in car) Yes. Is that what you want? Yes. Gurudāsa Mahārāja can speak very nice. The speaking starts in the fall, especially. That's when we could work together. No, in our temple. In the temples also. Should I not go to the London zone at this time? I've been invited. They say they need a sannyāsī in that zone, for years, so I've been invited. Do you think I should go now with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja, or go to London? That you decide among, among all of you. All right. Very good. (break) *Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ ( SB 5.18.12). As soon as one becomes devotee, all the good qualification immediately manifest. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. (indistinct background comments) . . . all these people hanging out and making noise. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- July 20, 1976, New York (in car) Appreciating. They have so many different groups, religious groups and minority groups from other parts of the world, they call it a melting pot. So they accept us because they've accepted so many others, the Puerto Ricans, the blacks, so similarly they are accepting us. Who? This city, the people of this city. America. New York. New York. In other places they consider us to be very foreign, alien. But here there are so many foreigners, so it fits right in. This is the Tenth Street? No. This is Amsterdam Avenue. Oh. Ninth Avenue turns into Amsterdam Avenue. *Next year at the Ratha*-yātrā they are planning to have a press box, so that the newspapermen and the television cameras can come and film the activities on stage also. They can film your lecture, they can film the play. We're also thinking to have a press box along the parade route, so that they can stay in an elevated position and take photos. We collected a total of about seven thousand dollars, Prabhupāda. And what you spent? Spent ten thousand. But we also collected another fifteen thousand in advertisements. So total collection was about twenty, over twenty thousand, and expenditure was under ten. Good business. (laughter) And that was the first year. (chants japa ) Next year we will collect sixty to seventy thousand dollars . . . Whew! . . . easily, I'm sure, with advertisements. So where the profit is going? Where is the profit? Into distributing more books. That's nice, very good. That is our only business. (break) . . . completely cleansed all of the grounds throughout the night, Prabhupāda. Where? Last night all night long we were cleaning up the grounds. At the park. At the park. One woman who lives next to the park said: "In all my years of living here I've never seen such a wonderful festival held." Yes . . . (indistinct) And one . . . the official of the park, who's in charge of the park, was on CBS television, and he said that, "You see? Spiritual life is still present in Washington Square Park." He made that comment. He said: "We are very proud to be able to say that in our . . . this park was founded hundreds of years ago, when America was religious." And he said, "Spiritual life is still present in Washington Square Park." So why not ask the mayor to construct a temple there? (laughter) I don't think they'd agree. People will come. Maybe, but, ah, I don't think they will agree to that. They're not that spiritual. No, in America you have to raise your own money for temples. You cannot get the city to build it. No, you can't get their land either, not for a building like that. You can put up a hospital maybe. Thing is, park space is so short in that area of the city that they . . . I don't think they'd give it up for a building. Prabhupāda told us yesterday that we should rent a small building downtown in that area and call it Guṇḍicā, so that Lord Jagannātha will stay down there. For one week. For one week. And we'll keep a restaurant there. And then they'll again come in procession. Wow! Yes, two festivals. I was told that there was another procession last night bringing the car back, and all the night persons—there's a different whole segment of the city, people who come at night . . . Bums. . . . who stay up all night. And they were there, hundreds of people following the car back in the nighttime. *It took about seven hours to bring the carts back. All night they worked. Jayānanda was slaving out there, and Ādi*-keśa Swami. Ādi-keśa finally got back at five in the morning, collapsed on the carts. He was exhausted. They should be given some recommendations in writing. *Give Ādi*-keśa a recommendation. This will be gigantic, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'll tell you one thing, that the first way we go, next year when we go one way, it will get huge publicity, and that will be the publicity for the going return trip. Because it will be so publicized, even more people will come on the return ride. On the return you simply go to the temple and drop the Deities off? *Yes. We'll go to Fifty*-ninth Street and have another feast at the park. Yes, there has to be another feast. We'll have the feast. We may have buses, we'll have all our buses, and we'll bus the people to the temple. We could rent buses, Rāmeśvara. *Return Ratha*-yātrā. Ulṭā-ratha . What is it called? *Ulṭā*-ratha . *Ulṭā*-ratha. Should the actors perform the Herā Pañcamī ceremony? That is in the middle. In the middle. Do that. So they can do that? (break) . . . pañcamī , where they carry the goddess of fortune on an opulent palanquin. Actually, New York doesn't have a name. We have to give it some name. We call Los Angeles as New Dvārakā. Here it's just New York. (break) *(whispering) . . . Rādhā*-vallabha. Huh? *Rādhā*-vallabha. . . . monkey. What is that? *Rādhā*-vallabha is your faithful servant. Guarding you. (break) (walking) We were talking about the pictures, the paintings in the books. We were mentioning how professors liked the paintings and how sometimes they actually buy the books because of the nice paintings. Sometimes when we go back to see a professor or librarian a year later, we'll notice that they'll have a catalogue up on the bulletin board. Sometimes they'll take the cover of the jacket of the book and they'll put it on display. And now we're getting recognized when we go to some of the colleges. They say: "Oh, you're the man with the nice colorful books. We've seen your catalogue, we got one in the mail. We've seen your books, and they're very attractive books." And our men are getting known now that because we've been to most of the schools in America once, and they say: "You're the men who don't leave until your books are in the library." Even if the school is closed, our men, now, they'll go to the professor's home and they'll get him out of bed to come to see the librarian or to write a notice or to call the librarian. So even if the school is closed, the books are still being placed, and when the students come the books are in the library. (break) (in car) Yes. Is that what you want? Yes. Gurudāsa Mahārāja can speak very nice. The speaking starts in the fall, especially. That's when we could work together. No, in our temple. In the temples also. Should I not go to the London zone at this time? I've been invited. They say they need a sannyāsī in that zone, for years, so I've been invited. Do you think I should go now with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja, or go to London? That you decide among, among all of you. All right. Very good. (break) *Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ ( SB 5.18.12). As soon as one becomes devotee, all the good qualification immediately manifest. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. (indistinct background comments) . . . all these people hanging out and making noise. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- July 21, 1976, New York (in car) *And I've been told that all the TV stations showed our Ratha*-yātrā. That means millions of people saw the ratha cart. And everyone has seen it in the newspapers. Yes. That Newsday also had coverage. We didn't get that paper for Prabhupāda, but they also . . . this is even before their article, interview. Oh. What about Newsweek and . . .? When those interviews that those reporters took are published, we'll send them to you immediately. (aside) Newsday , Associated Press and Newsweek . (break) . . . higher to temple. *Not exactly. We'll go, probably, over the Fifty*-ninth Street bridge, right? I think it would be better now to go through the tunnel. Tunnel? Little easier ride. We're going over the tunnel, into the tunnel. What street is that? Fifty . . .? About Thirtieth Street. You think that's faster? Yes, it goes right under . . . (indistinct discussion about route) (break) . . . people of New York are appreciating, Prabhupāda, how you came here alone and now you have a big building with many followers. Actually the people are aware, very much aware of how you started this movement in New York. And were struggling personally. (break) . . . life there is struggle. Without struggling there is no . . . We should not be . . . try to avoid struggle. No. Because we have got preaching point of view. Preaching means struggling. If it was simply bhajana , you can sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. (break) "There's one credit that I have. I was never a lazy fellow." Yes, throughout my life. (end) Conversation -- July 21, 1976, New York (in car) *And I've been told that all the TV stations showed our Ratha*-yātrā. That means millions of people saw the ratha cart. And everyone has seen it in the newspapers. Yes. That Newsday also had coverage. We didn't get that paper for Prabhupāda, but they also . . . this is even before their article, interview. Oh. What about Newsweek and . . .? When those interviews that those reporters took are published, we'll send them to you immediately. (aside) Newsday , Associated Press and Newsweek . (break) . . . higher to temple. *Not exactly. We'll go, probably, over the Fifty*-ninth Street bridge, right? I think it would be better now to go through the tunnel. Tunnel? Little easier ride. We're going over the tunnel, into the tunnel. What street is that? Fifty . . .? About Thirtieth Street. You think that's faster? Yes, it goes right under . . . (indistinct discussion about route) (break) . . . people of New York are appreciating, Prabhupāda, how you came here alone and now you have a big building with many followers. Actually the people are aware, very much aware of how you started this movement in New York. And were struggling personally. (break) . . . life there is struggle. Without struggling there is no . . . We should not be . . . try to avoid struggle. No. Because we have got preaching point of view. Preaching means struggling. If it was simply bhajana , you can sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. (break) "There's one credit that I have. I was never a lazy fellow." Yes, throughout my life. (end) Interview -- July 23, 1976, London (Interview with religion editor of The Observer) I think I saw you before? No. Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Colin Cross, who is the religious correspondent for The Observer . This is His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. And this is Tony McGraw, who is a photographer. The Observer is one of the most respected newspapers. You can give chair. No, I'll sit on the floor. You sure you're comfortable this way? We can have them bring a chair. There's no problem. Yes, I can . . . no, a chair would give the wrong atmosphere. So you are observing our movement? Yes, really for the first time at close quarters. First time? We are here for the last seven years. Yes, I know a little about you, but it's only in the last hour that I've really begun to learn. We showed him the movie. Your paper is Observer . Why did you not observe for the last seven years? (laughter) We just showed him our film. How did you like? Oh, it was very interesting. Again, it taught me a lot that I did not previously know. We are trying to give real life. The present civilization is . . . (to someone else) Hare Kṛṣṇa. How are you? (converses in Hindi) You are religious observer. What is your idea of religion? I would say much the same as yours, from what I've seen in your writings—that there's an underlying truth behind all religion. Would you agree with that? Religion, as it is explained in the dictionary, "Accepting a supreme controller." Is it not? Hmm. So do the people accept a supreme controller? Do they accept? There are so many system of religions, but do they actually know who is the supreme controller? That is my question. What do you think? Just like this is British government, and we know that the Queen is the supreme controller. Similarly, of all creation, cosmic manifestation, there is a supreme controller. And who is that supreme controller? Do they know it? That is my question. I mean, what is your attitude towards Christianity? Don't come to Christianity. I'm talking on religion, the science of religion. The religion . . . when we speak of religion, there is no question of Christianity or Muslim or Hindu. Just like when they speak of gold, gold is gold everywhere. Gold cannot be Muslim gold or Hindu gold or Christian gold. First try . . . we are concerned with gold, not the country where the gold is produced. That is not very important thing. Whether it is gold, that is our business. I mean, would you count Jesus Christ as gold? Yes, why not? He's speaking about the supreme controller, God, so why should we not? Anyone who is speaking about God . . . (break) You don't accept it as mere sentiment. No. Religion without science or philosophy is sentiment. And philosophy without religion is mental speculation. So they must be combined together. So far the controller is concerned, this is scientific understanding. Just like the father . . . we consider . . . why we? Everyone. Either he is Christian or Muhammadan or Hindu, the conception of God is generally accepted as the supreme father. I mean, it is a fact. It is fact. Yes. Because, just like anything, creation means the mother, the father and the children. That is our practical experience. Without mother, we are nowhere. We are given birth by the mother. So the material nature is the mother. From the material nature, material elements, everything is coming. From the water the fishes are coming, from the land the grass, the worms, and then human being, they are coming. From the air also living entities are coming. So therefore material nature is the mother, and we have come out of the material nature, therefore we are children. Then there must be father, because without father, simply mother cannot give birth. This is science. You cannot deny the existence of God simply by a false argument. This is real argument. The mother is there, material nature, and we are children there. There must be father. In England, the Christian Church in recent years or recent decades has been doing very badly and losing support. Your teaching could perhaps provide a substitute for the more traditional type of Christian teaching. Yes, this is science. Therefore I say religion without scientific idea, that is sentiment. It has no value. This is basic principle of religion, that the mother is there, the children are there—there must be father. If you say: "I do not see what is God," it doesn't matter. Sometimes the child after birth does not see his father. But that does not mean that he has no father, because without father there is no possibility of his existence. What impelled you personally, when you, at a fairly late stage in life, to come to the West and teach? *I must be prepared to teach. Teaching is not so easy thing. I was ordered to teach at the age of twenty*-five years by my Guru Mahārāja. But I was finding out the opportunity how to take up the work. So it took me so many years, so that at seventy years I came out for teaching. Why particularly in the West? Because my Guru Mahārāja ordered that, "You go and teach this gospel in the Western world." His teacher instructed him to do this. Yes. And are you surprised at the great success you've had? That is my Guru Mahārāja's blessings. He ordered me, I tried my best, so there is little success. When I see so many boys and hundreds of centers, they are living very peacefully in a nice house, getting good prasādam , having good knowledge in the books, and reforming their character and getting some good home, that is my success. Otherwise, they are loitering—no home, no character, no peace of mind. So at least this is my success. I have given so many boys a life. That is my success. Well, I'm very honored to have met you. I've read some of your work. I intend to read more. Yes. So we are trying to give the best service to the humanity, human society, and this is the only service. People should come forward and cooperate with us. It is not a sectarian, sentimental religious system. It is a scientific understanding of the value of life. Well, thank you very much indeed, sir. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (end) Interview -- July 23, 1976, London (Interview with religion editor of The Observer) I think I saw you before? No. Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Colin Cross, who is the religious correspondent for The Observer . This is His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. And this is Tony McGraw, who is a photographer. The Observer is one of the most respected newspapers. You can give chair. No, I'll sit on the floor. You sure you're comfortable this way? We can have them bring a chair. There's no problem. Yes, I can . . . no, a chair would give the wrong atmosphere. So you are observing our movement? Yes, really for the first time at close quarters. First time? We are here for the last seven years. Yes, I know a little about you, but it's only in the last hour that I've really begun to learn. We showed him the movie. Your paper is Observer . Why did you not observe for the last seven years? (laughter) We just showed him our film. How did you like? Oh, it was very interesting. Again, it taught me a lot that I did not previously know. We are trying to give real life. The present civilization is . . . (to someone else) Hare Kṛṣṇa. How are you? (converses in Hindi) You are religious observer. What is your idea of religion? I would say much the same as yours, from what I've seen in your writings—that there's an underlying truth behind all religion. Would you agree with that? Religion, as it is explained in the dictionary, "Accepting a supreme controller." Is it not? Hmm. So do the people accept a supreme controller? Do they accept? There are so many system of religions, but do they actually know who is the supreme controller? That is my question. What do you think? Just like this is British government, and we know that the Queen is the supreme controller. Similarly, of all creation, cosmic manifestation, there is a supreme controller. And who is that supreme controller? Do they know it? That is my question. I mean, what is your attitude towards Christianity? Don't come to Christianity. I'm talking on religion, the science of religion. The religion . . . when we speak of religion, there is no question of Christianity or Muslim or Hindu. Just like when they speak of gold, gold is gold everywhere. Gold cannot be Muslim gold or Hindu gold or Christian gold. First try . . . we are concerned with gold, not the country where the gold is produced. That is not very important thing. Whether it is gold, that is our business. I mean, would you count Jesus Christ as gold? Yes, why not? He's speaking about the supreme controller, God, so why should we not? Anyone who is speaking about God . . . (break) You don't accept it as mere sentiment. No. Religion without science or philosophy is sentiment. And philosophy without religion is mental speculation. So they must be combined together. So far the controller is concerned, this is scientific understanding. Just like the father . . . we consider . . . why we? Everyone. Either he is Christian or Muhammadan or Hindu, the conception of God is generally accepted as the supreme father. I mean, it is a fact. It is fact. Yes. Because, just like anything, creation means the mother, the father and the children. That is our practical experience. Without mother, we are nowhere. We are given birth by the mother. So the material nature is the mother. From the material nature, material elements, everything is coming. From the water the fishes are coming, from the land the grass, the worms, and then human being, they are coming. From the air also living entities are coming. So therefore material nature is the mother, and we have come out of the material nature, therefore we are children. Then there must be father, because without father, simply mother cannot give birth. This is science. You cannot deny the existence of God simply by a false argument. This is real argument. The mother is there, material nature, and we are children there. There must be father. In England, the Christian Church in recent years or recent decades has been doing very badly and losing support. Your teaching could perhaps provide a substitute for the more traditional type of Christian teaching. Yes, this is science. Therefore I say religion without scientific idea, that is sentiment. It has no value. This is basic principle of religion, that the mother is there, the children are there—there must be father. If you say: "I do not see what is God," it doesn't matter. Sometimes the child after birth does not see his father. But that does not mean that he has no father, because without father there is no possibility of his existence. What impelled you personally, when you, at a fairly late stage in life, to come to the West and teach? *I must be prepared to teach. Teaching is not so easy thing. I was ordered to teach at the age of twenty*-five years by my Guru Mahārāja. But I was finding out the opportunity how to take up the work. So it took me so many years, so that at seventy years I came out for teaching. Why particularly in the West? Because my Guru Mahārāja ordered that, "You go and teach this gospel in the Western world." His teacher instructed him to do this. Yes. And are you surprised at the great success you've had? That is my Guru Mahārāja's blessings. He ordered me, I tried my best, so there is little success. When I see so many boys and hundreds of centers, they are living very peacefully in a nice house, getting good prasādam , having good knowledge in the books, and reforming their character and getting some good home, that is my success. Otherwise, they are loitering—no home, no character, no peace of mind. So at least this is my success. I have given so many boys a life. That is my success. Well, I'm very honored to have met you. I've read some of your work. I intend to read more. Yes. So we are trying to give the best service to the humanity, human society, and this is the only service. People should come forward and cooperate with us. It is not a sectarian, sentimental religious system. It is a scientific understanding of the value of life. Well, thank you very much indeed, sir. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (end) Conversation -- July 24, 1976, London (at Bhaktivedanta Manor) I have understood from other devotees that you said that anyone who has taken birth in India is in the mode of goodness, but anyone who has taken birth in the United States is in the mode of passion. And yet everyone is born śūdra . So could you make it clear to me? I don't understand. If we're all born śūdra , how are the people born in the mode of goodness in India and the people in the United States are born in the mode of passion? Same thing: that if you are born in a rich family, but you can squander away your money and become a poor man. Ah. Ah. Thank you very much. (laughs) To born in a rich family is not a guarantee that you will continue to be rich. (laughs) (break) . . . how do you achieve the transcendental blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa, but better still, how do you achieve the transcendental blessings of the spiritual master? (to Gurudāsa) Answer him. By carrying out the orders of the spiritual master, cent percent. Answer him explaining. What is his question? How does one achieve the mercy of the spiritual master, the real mercy of the spiritual master, in order to achieve full Kṛṣṇa consciousness? (break) The spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa, so by serving the spiritual master, then we know how to serve Kṛṣṇa, and in that way we're serving . . . we are receiving the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. So this process is descending process, that we're receiving the benediction moon of Lord Kṛṣṇa's mercy through the spiritual master, and Lord Kṛṣṇa is saying: "Surrender to Me," but the question is how to surrender. So the spiritual master is there to explain how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So by doing what the spiritual master wishes, that is what Kṛṣṇa wishes. Just like a representative of an industrialist or the head of a university or any big, big man, his representative can distribute how best to serve in that way. And when that is being carried out, then the mercy is distributed. (break) . . . simply, you know, following out your orders and instruction, then this will destroy all material desires that we have? We have no real desire to serve Lord Kṛṣṇa. We would rather be in His place. That's why we're here. And similarly, with the spiritual master, we don't really know how to serve him. We can say, "I surrender to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda," but that doesn't mean very much. But from simply by following your instructions you have set down, will this be enough to destroy all material desires we have? What do you mean by material desires? Even within spiritual life, I may . . . No. Define material desires. Material desires? To enjoy the senses and the body. To desire . . . Sense gratification. Yes, sensual gratification. Then? Even within spiritual life one can desire to be a great spiritualist, or one can desire to be a best devotee or best at doing this or being closest to the spiritual master, and things like that. That is not material desire. That is not material desire? No. Material desire means sense gratification: I shall eat more, I shall sleep more, I shall have sex life more, I shall defend more—these are material desires. I shall serve more Kṛṣṇa—that is not material. I shall try my best for serving Kṛṣṇa—these are not material desires. These are spiritual desires. Desire you cannot stop. That is not possible. So long you are, your desires are there. Desire should be purified. When I desire to gratify my senses, that is material. When I desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. The desire is there. Not to stop desire. But desire for some personal sense gratification, that is material. And desire for satisfying Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. So you have to understand how you are desiring. Are you desiring for your personal gratification, or you are desiring to satisfy Kṛṣṇa? That anyone can understand. If you are in doubt, then ask your spiritual master that, "I am desiring like this. Whether it is material or spiritual?" That's all. General definition is, desiring for personal gratification is material; desiring for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction is spiritual. Now, because we are not experienced, we may commit mistake, one for the other. Therefore, whenever there is doubt, refer the matter to your spiritual master. So Māyāvādī philosopher says that, "Don't desire." That is not possible. "Don't desire" is not possible. Desire must be there, but I have to see whether I am desiring for my personal gratification or I am desiring for Kṛṣṇa. That is to be seen. And if you are in doubt, then ask your spiritual master. Is it clear? Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) . . . is that in our neophyte stage, how can we have actual desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa? Therefore you have to refer to the spiritual master. You have to what to the spir . . .? Refer the matter to your spiritual master. If he says yes, it is all right. If he says no, then it is not right. (break) In primary school, the small child is writing and showing to the teacher, "Sir, it is all right?" and he says: "Yes, it is all right." That's all. If he says: "No," then you have to write again. (break) . . . candlestick? Candles? These, candles. In your room? Yes. Your light is on. Huh? (break) That means, according to their system, sun is 93 million miles away. And if the moon is above that, 1,600,000, so it is almost 95 million. So after 95 million miles, how they can go in moon? Of course, they say that the moon's only 263,000 miles away. That is wrong. Wrong means according to Bhāgavata , the moon is above. It says: "The *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* describes that the covering of the universe is 200 . . ." uh, wait a minute now, "260 . . ." Billion "260 million yojanas , and 2 billion", that's 2,080,000,000—miles away from the sun. "The distance from the sun to the earth is a hundred thousand yojanas ." That's all right. Yes. So I took this reference, and I added it to the reference on 22.8. 22.8 says that, "Above the rays of the sunshine, by a distance of a hundred thousand yojanas , is the moon." Then it says: "When we take into account that the moon is a hundred thousand yojanas above the rays of the sunshine . . ." Above the rays of the sunshine. Hmm. So the . . . Above. So the sun is far away from the earth. But "The sun only goes as far as the rays of the . . ." (trying to calculate) That's all right, you can calculate . . . (indistinct) . . . now. I want just a rough estimate that if moon is accepted above the sun, it is their calculation the sun is from the earth at a distance of 93 million. So 93 million miles and 1,600,000 is about 95 million miles. So 95 million miles, even at the speed of 25,000 per hour, how they can they go in four days? When there is argument, I shall take your words in my favor. (laughter) That is the way. Whatever is in my favor, I shall take as good. And Mars is beyond that. So the other may be calculated. At the rate of 18,000 miles per hour, it takes about seven months to go to the moon planet. And above that, another 1,600,000 miles above, will be Mars. So it will take about nine months for that. Actually, that's how long it took. Well, they say it's 208 million miles from earth. This spaceship to Mars was supposed to have been launched almost a year ago. No. Their calculation to Mars is over 200 million miles. 200 million miles. Over. More than that. I can't remember the exact figure, but it was more than 200 million. But the sun is 93 million miles. So above that? It's the other direction. The sun's that way, and Mars is the other way. It's away from the sun. That, what is called, solar system, eh? The sun is fixed up, and there are circle. Yes. It is not calculated above. What is there above? How they calculate the seven stars? Or the polestar? What is their calculation? They say that it's hundreds of light years away. Huh? They say that the North Star is hundreds of light years away. Now, what does it mean, north? It's always . . . because it's . . . Up. *Umm*-hmm. So where is up? Isn't it fixed star? It's the one star that doesn't move, the North Star. The other stars move; this one doesn't. Huh? Polestar. The North Star doesn't move, while all the others move; so therefore they call it the fixed point of north. No, no. The sailors always used to point to it, towards north. Where is the North Star? Where solar system is, here is sun, and the circle, different types of other planets. So where is this North Star? Where it is situated in the solar system? It's a long ways away from their solar system, they say. Huh? They say it's many billions of miles away from their solar system. So away, which side? Up? Down? North? South? You have to know the direction. Must be up. And then what is that "up"? Why do they take "up," north? When we see the map, why do we take north as the up and south as the down? Why they take direction like that? So north means up? Can you see the North Star from Australia? I don't think so. There's different stars that are visible in Australia. How it must be visible? They do all navigation . . . Australia is . . . (indistinct) . . . place on this planet. If North Star is visible from here, it can be visible from there. No. I think they say that it's only visible from the northern hemisphere. Huh? That in the southern hemisphere, it's a completely different set of stars. You can't see the same set of stars from the southern hemisphere that you can from the northern hemisphere. In the southern hemisphere, they take their navigational readings from what's called the Southern Cross. It's a group of stars, and they take it from them. The seven stars are not visible? I don't know about the seven stars. I don't think the North Star is visible. If the North Star is not visible, the seven stars also you will not see. No. Other stars are visible. How it is visible? Because the seven stars are attached with the North Star. Alright I don't know about the seven stars, but there's some stars. Some stars are visible. It's called the Big Dipper. Huh? In the West they call the seven stars the Big Dipper. Big Dipper. And the North Star is one end of that. That's the Plow, right? It looks like that. It is like a ladle. No. You can't see that in the south. Saptarṣi . We call saptarṣi . Saptarṣi . That's not visible in the south. Huh? That is not visible in the southern hemisphere. I do not believe. In India it's visible. That's northern hemisphere. North of the equator. It's not visible in Australia. Srila . . . not fact. It makes sense. What? It makes sense, though. What is that? That you couldn't see it, because the earth, they go like this, and the sun also, and the stars are up there. Then you cannot see sun also. The sun is above the earth. . . . (indistinct) Earth. They can see the sun, because the sun is going around and moving up and down. They say the sun is here, the earth is here, so that the earth is turning around like this. Therefore, sometimes you can see the sun and sometimes you can't. And the seven stars . . . (indistinct) In the nighttime you cannot see it; in the daytime you can. Because the earth is turning around and going like this. You know the seven stars are not visible from there? Yeah, I looked. I'm sure they're not visible. In the northern hemisphere they're always visible, but in the southern hemisphere they're not. I can check on it, but I'm . . . You can ask anyone from Australia whether the seven stars are visible there. Yeah. Okay. Or you can ask any mathematicians or . . . (indistinct) . . . men. This is very confusing, this . . . No, this chart was very carefully done. This chart was very carefully done. I appreciated it after I studied it for about a week. Very carefully done. Yeah, I know what you mean. It's . . . there's only . . . It . . . (indistinct) . . . be it will be right. But otherwise it was pretty good. It requires a little mathematical astronomy knowledge to translate this very difficult subject in Sanskrit language. I have done as far as possible, but when we make our planetarium, we have to consult the Indian astronomers or mathematicians. In this way, we have to correct if there is . . . (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa wouldn't let me find any. Huh? Every time I tried, it was a failure. I couldn't find anybody who knew. (indistinct) . . . that is just like this chandelier. The North Star is up, and it is hanging, and the whole . . . (indistinct) . . . moon. You should take your camera one day, put it on the roof, and point it at the polestar, and you'll see everything going like this. You put it on that beam where it's open all the time. Yes, open all the time. You should do that, and you'll see everything going like that. It'll prove it. It'll knock out the whole scientific world. They've already done that, though, but they say it's for a different reason, don't they? Well, that's what they say, but we've got the proof. But they agree on that, that it doesn't work. Yeah, but then why everything's going around it? You can see it. Everything goes like that around the polestar. The whole thing. You can see little circles all around the polestar. That proves it. They can't deny it. (laughs) You can leave the camera lens open. If, when our night is, Australia is day? Yeah. Huh? Is that the fact? No, not necessarily. Partially. Huh? When it's nighttime in England, then it's daytime in Australia. Yeah, just like it's midsummer here now, and in Australia it's midwinter. That I know. Day and night goes by the way it's situated around the earth, like India is nighttime now, and here is . . . When it's daytime in Alaska, it's also daytime in Australia, because they're more or less on the same . . . It goes by the . . . It's on the same side. Longitude. It's opposite. England and Australia are opposite on the globe. It's nighttime there as well. Therefore they used to say that the sun never sets on the British Empire. Because when it was daytime in Australia, it was nighttime in Britain. (laughter) They say the sun never sets in the British Empire because the sun never shines on them . . . (indistinct) . . . the set. (laughs) Nowadays that's true. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . better now it is morning. So he says what is for me morning, evening. It is all dark. There are many millions of universes. So that is not visible. That is beyond the visible. Yes. They would dispute that, but they have no proof. They have nothing proof. We have got proof. Their brain developed two hundred years ago, and this brain . . . they cannot calculate when it was developed. That is the difference. They were microbes at that time. While they were microbes, still development took place. In the beginning they were microbes? That's what they say, yes. (laughs) Again you're using their argument against them. Huh? Again you're using their argument against them. Yes. They were microbes. What can you say . . . (indistinct) . . .? So when you were microbes, the Vedic civilization was there. They have to admit. We speak of millions and trillions of years, and they speak of some thousands of years. They say the, what is called, human brain, the technical, 40,000 years ago . . . (indistinct) Forty thousand? Yes. They say? Forty thousands or something, forty. Oh, but it wasn't civilized. It wasn't developed. Huh? It wasn't civilized. The Pleistocene is one million, Pleistocene. But the brain developed 40,000. Because the life was beginning from microbic. But ours is in the beginning there was Brahmās brain, who is in charge of creating this universal affair. How many years is that calculated? That you cannot calculate. It's logical that things were originally very big or very developed and then became degraded, and it isn't logical that things were originally small and became developed, because everything we see in the material world becomes eroded or becomes degraded over a period of time. A big stone gets washed down. From nature we see that things start nice and decay. Therefore this supports our facts also, that there was high civilization, not a civilization that's lower. It supports that. *Yes. That is called Kali*-yuga. Yes. Everything is degraded. Some people ask why there are no signs of dinosaurs at the time of Rāmacandra. Sometimes they ask that. So who knows? Who says there was no dinosaur? Because it's not . . . And what is that nonsense, dinosaur? That is manufactured by Darwin. They put together the bones. Big bones. Big bones. Big bones can be had still. Timiṅgala . Also people were bigger at that time, so the little animals might have been bigger. No. Apart from that, the timiṅgala is there. It is about maybe two miles, three miles long. What is that? In the Pacific Ocean, if there is a fish two miles long, what is that? Oh, the timiṅgila fish. They swallow whales. In the *Rāmāyaṇa* it talks about large birds, but it doesn't mention dinosaur. But dinosaur, it is English word. There may be some Sanskrit. Just like timiṅgala. Timiṅgala you will not find in the English dictionary, but this word is there. In the Bhāgavata there is timiṅgala . We haven't got to tax our brain so much for these thing, but we can have an idea of the whole universe through the knowledge given by Bhāgavata . That is all. We are not concerned where is the sun, where is the Mars. We kick all these things. We go to Vaikuṇṭha. (laughter) Right. Even there are such things—there are undoubtedly—we don't care for these billion planets. We don't care. Like the scientists were arguing. Recently they made a big campaign against astrology because they said that the stars and the planets have no influence on human behavior or human life; therefore astrology is useless. So I was saying to one man that the scientists say here that the planets and the stars have no influence on human life; therefore why are they spending so much time studying them and trying to go to them, if they have no influence? Waste of time. Then how long they will study? Even they study . . . As long as they can get money from the government, they'll study. . . . what they will study? Their lifetime will be finished, and they are going to be a dog. Then instead of studying, they will bark. What they are going to do then? It's nonsense. There are so many people who just do nonsense in the name of science because they are weakened. They don't have an idea of the meaning of life, so they say: "The quest for new worlds." They don't even know what they're questing for. Nonsense. And what benefit they will get? No benefit, except money. I read in the paper . . . From an economic point of view, it is simply waste of money. But they will do it. One scientist did research in Texas . . . For knowledge sake, we have got this Bhāgavata. Bhāgavata says it is like this. That's all. Why shall I go to research unless I have got some business? Because they are not satisfied. They want to see something new. We are satisfied with the nectar of the Bhāgavata . They want something new because they're dissatisfied. Huh? They're dissatisfied, so they want something new. *Dissatisfied is the material life. Nobody is satisfied with any position. That is material world. If you have got one thousand rupees, you are not satisfied. If you have got one million rupees, you are not satisfied. If you have got many millions of rupees, you are not . . . Birla, ask them: "Are you satisfied? Why you are doing business? Go on." Nobody is satisfied. Indra is not satisfied, Candra is not satisfied. There is fight between the demons and devotees. This is material world—nobody can be satisfied. Therefore Vāmanadeva says that it is not possible to be satisfied. When Bali Mahārāja said that, "You are so learned*-speaking that Your instruction are to be accepted by the greatest learned man, but still You are so childish that You are asking me three feet of land. This is Your childish innocence. So why not ask more?" But He said: "No. Why shall I ask more? If I ask more, that will not satisfy Me. If I ask more, that will not satisfy Me. It will never satisfy Me. The best thing is, now whatever I need at the present moment, that much I want." And He is giving reason that, "A beggar should not ask from the giver more than what is absolutely necessary. So why shall I ask more?" Bali Mahārāja was inducing it that, "He is a child, so what three feet will do of this beggar?" He did not know that two feet is sufficient to cover up and down. So for argument's sake, that "You are asking me just like a . . . exactly as You are small boy." It also states in the *Bhāgavatam* that a beggar should not ask something that someone cannot give. No. Beggar, they should ask alms, little—not big amount from one person. The brahmacārī was sent house to house. Begging means alms, muṣṭi , for muṣṭi . So any family, one palmful of rice to give anyone in those days, practically. (long pause) So, where I have to go now? We were thinking that it would be good if you rested for today. Huh? We were thinking that it would be good if you rested for the day and didn't go down, because yesterday you were quite tired after you went down. If you have to go out tomorrow morning, better thing is to rest completely today, and not strain yourself. Have at least one more day full rest. Because yesterday was the first time that you've had a full meal also. (end) Conversation -- July 24, 1976, London (at Bhaktivedanta Manor) I have understood from other devotees that you said that anyone who has taken birth in India is in the mode of goodness, but anyone who has taken birth in the United States is in the mode of passion. And yet everyone is born śūdra . So could you make it clear to me? I don't understand. If we're all born śūdra , how are the people born in the mode of goodness in India and the people in the United States are born in the mode of passion? Same thing: that if you are born in a rich family, but you can squander away your money and become a poor man. Ah. Ah. Thank you very much. (laughs) To born in a rich family is not a guarantee that you will continue to be rich. (laughs) (break) . . . how do you achieve the transcendental blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa, but better still, how do you achieve the transcendental blessings of the spiritual master? (to Gurudāsa) Answer him. By carrying out the orders of the spiritual master, cent percent. Answer him explaining. What is his question? How does one achieve the mercy of the spiritual master, the real mercy of the spiritual master, in order to achieve full Kṛṣṇa consciousness? (break) The spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa, so by serving the spiritual master, then we know how to serve Kṛṣṇa, and in that way we're serving . . . we are receiving the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. So this process is descending process, that we're receiving the benediction moon of Lord Kṛṣṇa's mercy through the spiritual master, and Lord Kṛṣṇa is saying: "Surrender to Me," but the question is how to surrender. So the spiritual master is there to explain how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So by doing what the spiritual master wishes, that is what Kṛṣṇa wishes. Just like a representative of an industrialist or the head of a university or any big, big man, his representative can distribute how best to serve in that way. And when that is being carried out, then the mercy is distributed. (break) . . . simply, you know, following out your orders and instruction, then this will destroy all material desires that we have? We have no real desire to serve Lord Kṛṣṇa. We would rather be in His place. That's why we're here. And similarly, with the spiritual master, we don't really know how to serve him. We can say, "I surrender to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda," but that doesn't mean very much. But from simply by following your instructions you have set down, will this be enough to destroy all material desires we have? What do you mean by material desires? Even within spiritual life, I may . . . No. Define material desires. Material desires? To enjoy the senses and the body. To desire . . . Sense gratification. Yes, sensual gratification. Then? Even within spiritual life one can desire to be a great spiritualist, or one can desire to be a best devotee or best at doing this or being closest to the spiritual master, and things like that. That is not material desire. That is not material desire? No. Material desire means sense gratification: I shall eat more, I shall sleep more, I shall have sex life more, I shall defend more—these are material desires. I shall serve more Kṛṣṇa—that is not material. I shall try my best for serving Kṛṣṇa—these are not material desires. These are spiritual desires. Desire you cannot stop. That is not possible. So long you are, your desires are there. Desire should be purified. When I desire to gratify my senses, that is material. When I desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. The desire is there. Not to stop desire. But desire for some personal sense gratification, that is material. And desire for satisfying Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. So you have to understand how you are desiring. Are you desiring for your personal gratification, or you are desiring to satisfy Kṛṣṇa? That anyone can understand. If you are in doubt, then ask your spiritual master that, "I am desiring like this. Whether it is material or spiritual?" That's all. General definition is, desiring for personal gratification is material; desiring for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction is spiritual. Now, because we are not experienced, we may commit mistake, one for the other. Therefore, whenever there is doubt, refer the matter to your spiritual master. So Māyāvādī philosopher says that, "Don't desire." That is not possible. "Don't desire" is not possible. Desire must be there, but I have to see whether I am desiring for my personal gratification or I am desiring for Kṛṣṇa. That is to be seen. And if you are in doubt, then ask your spiritual master. Is it clear? Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) . . . is that in our neophyte stage, how can we have actual desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa? Therefore you have to refer to the spiritual master. You have to what to the spir . . .? Refer the matter to your spiritual master. If he says yes, it is all right. If he says no, then it is not right. (break) In primary school, the small child is writing and showing to the teacher, "Sir, it is all right?" and he says: "Yes, it is all right." That's all. If he says: "No," then you have to write again. (break) . . . candlestick? Candles? These, candles. In your room? Yes. Your light is on. Huh? (break) That means, according to their system, sun is 93 million miles away. And if the moon is above that, 1,600,000, so it is almost 95 million. So after 95 million miles, how they can go in moon? Of course, they say that the moon's only 263,000 miles away. That is wrong. Wrong means according to Bhāgavata , the moon is above. It says: "The *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* describes that the covering of the universe is 200 . . ." uh, wait a minute now, "260 . . ." Billion "260 million yojanas , and 2 billion", that's 2,080,000,000—miles away from the sun. "The distance from the sun to the earth is a hundred thousand yojanas ." That's all right. Yes. So I took this reference, and I added it to the reference on 22.8. 22.8 says that, "Above the rays of the sunshine, by a distance of a hundred thousand yojanas , is the moon." Then it says: "When we take into account that the moon is a hundred thousand yojanas above the rays of the sunshine . . ." Above the rays of the sunshine. Hmm. So the . . . Above. So the sun is far away from the earth. But "The sun only goes as far as the rays of the . . ." (trying to calculate) That's all right, you can calculate . . . (indistinct) . . . now. I want just a rough estimate that if moon is accepted above the sun, it is their calculation the sun is from the earth at a distance of 93 million. So 93 million miles and 1,600,000 is about 95 million miles. So 95 million miles, even at the speed of 25,000 per hour, how they can they go in four days? When there is argument, I shall take your words in my favor. (laughter) That is the way. Whatever is in my favor, I shall take as good. And Mars is beyond that. So the other may be calculated. At the rate of 18,000 miles per hour, it takes about seven months to go to the moon planet. And above that, another 1,600,000 miles above, will be Mars. So it will take about nine months for that. Actually, that's how long it took. Well, they say it's 208 million miles from earth. This spaceship to Mars was supposed to have been launched almost a year ago. No. Their calculation to Mars is over 200 million miles. 200 million miles. Over. More than that. I can't remember the exact figure, but it was more than 200 million. But the sun is 93 million miles. So above that? It's the other direction. The sun's that way, and Mars is the other way. It's away from the sun. That, what is called, solar system, eh? The sun is fixed up, and there are circle. Yes. It is not calculated above. What is there above? How they calculate the seven stars? Or the polestar? What is their calculation? They say that it's hundreds of light years away. Huh? They say that the North Star is hundreds of light years away. Now, what does it mean, north? It's always . . . because it's . . . Up. *Umm*-hmm. So where is up? Isn't it fixed star? It's the one star that doesn't move, the North Star. The other stars move; this one doesn't. Huh? Polestar. The North Star doesn't move, while all the others move; so therefore they call it the fixed point of north. No, no. The sailors always used to point to it, towards north. Where is the North Star? Where solar system is, here is sun, and the circle, different types of other planets. So where is this North Star? Where it is situated in the solar system? It's a long ways away from their solar system, they say. Huh? They say it's many billions of miles away from their solar system. So away, which side? Up? Down? North? South? You have to know the direction. Must be up. And then what is that "up"? Why do they take "up," north? When we see the map, why do we take north as the up and south as the down? Why they take direction like that? So north means up? Can you see the North Star from Australia? I don't think so. There's different stars that are visible in Australia. How it must be visible? They do all navigation . . . Australia is . . . (indistinct) . . . place on this planet. If North Star is visible from here, it can be visible from there. No. I think they say that it's only visible from the northern hemisphere. Huh? That in the southern hemisphere, it's a completely different set of stars. You can't see the same set of stars from the southern hemisphere that you can from the northern hemisphere. In the southern hemisphere, they take their navigational readings from what's called the Southern Cross. It's a group of stars, and they take it from them. The seven stars are not visible? I don't know about the seven stars. I don't think the North Star is visible. If the North Star is not visible, the seven stars also you will not see. No. Other stars are visible. How it is visible? Because the seven stars are attached with the North Star. Alright I don't know about the seven stars, but there's some stars. Some stars are visible. It's called the Big Dipper. Huh? In the West they call the seven stars the Big Dipper. Big Dipper. And the North Star is one end of that. That's the Plow, right? It looks like that. It is like a ladle. No. You can't see that in the south. Saptarṣi . We call saptarṣi . Saptarṣi . That's not visible in the south. Huh? That is not visible in the southern hemisphere. I do not believe. In India it's visible. That's northern hemisphere. North of the equator. It's not visible in Australia. Srila . . . not fact. It makes sense. What? It makes sense, though. What is that? That you couldn't see it, because the earth, they go like this, and the sun also, and the stars are up there. Then you cannot see sun also. The sun is above the earth. . . . (indistinct) Earth. They can see the sun, because the sun is going around and moving up and down. They say the sun is here, the earth is here, so that the earth is turning around like this. Therefore, sometimes you can see the sun and sometimes you can't. And the seven stars . . . (indistinct) In the nighttime you cannot see it; in the daytime you can. Because the earth is turning around and going like this. You know the seven stars are not visible from there? Yeah, I looked. I'm sure they're not visible. In the northern hemisphere they're always visible, but in the southern hemisphere they're not. I can check on it, but I'm . . . You can ask anyone from Australia whether the seven stars are visible there. Yeah. Okay. Or you can ask any mathematicians or . . . (indistinct) . . . men. This is very confusing, this . . . No, this chart was very carefully done. This chart was very carefully done. I appreciated it after I studied it for about a week. Very carefully done. Yeah, I know what you mean. It's . . . there's only . . . It . . . (indistinct) . . . be it will be right. But otherwise it was pretty good. It requires a little mathematical astronomy knowledge to translate this very difficult subject in Sanskrit language. I have done as far as possible, but when we make our planetarium, we have to consult the Indian astronomers or mathematicians. In this way, we have to correct if there is . . . (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa wouldn't let me find any. Huh? Every time I tried, it was a failure. I couldn't find anybody who knew. (indistinct) . . . that is just like this chandelier. The North Star is up, and it is hanging, and the whole . . . (indistinct) . . . moon. You should take your camera one day, put it on the roof, and point it at the polestar, and you'll see everything going like this. You put it on that beam where it's open all the time. Yes, open all the time. You should do that, and you'll see everything going like that. It'll prove it. It'll knock out the whole scientific world. They've already done that, though, but they say it's for a different reason, don't they? Well, that's what they say, but we've got the proof. But they agree on that, that it doesn't work. Yeah, but then why everything's going around it? You can see it. Everything goes like that around the polestar. The whole thing. You can see little circles all around the polestar. That proves it. They can't deny it. (laughs) You can leave the camera lens open. If, when our night is, Australia is day? Yeah. Huh? Is that the fact? No, not necessarily. Partially. Huh? When it's nighttime in England, then it's daytime in Australia. Yeah, just like it's midsummer here now, and in Australia it's midwinter. That I know. Day and night goes by the way it's situated around the earth, like India is nighttime now, and here is . . . When it's daytime in Alaska, it's also daytime in Australia, because they're more or less on the same . . . It goes by the . . . It's on the same side. Longitude. It's opposite. England and Australia are opposite on the globe. It's nighttime there as well. Therefore they used to say that the sun never sets on the British Empire. Because when it was daytime in Australia, it was nighttime in Britain. (laughter) They say the sun never sets in the British Empire because the sun never shines on them . . . (indistinct) . . . the set. (laughs) Nowadays that's true. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . better now it is morning. So he says what is for me morning, evening. It is all dark. There are many millions of universes. So that is not visible. That is beyond the visible. Yes. They would dispute that, but they have no proof. They have nothing proof. We have got proof. Their brain developed two hundred years ago, and this brain . . . they cannot calculate when it was developed. That is the difference. They were microbes at that time. While they were microbes, still development took place. In the beginning they were microbes? That's what they say, yes. (laughs) Again you're using their argument against them. Huh? Again you're using their argument against them. Yes. They were microbes. What can you say . . . (indistinct) . . .? So when you were microbes, the Vedic civilization was there. They have to admit. We speak of millions and trillions of years, and they speak of some thousands of years. They say the, what is called, human brain, the technical, 40,000 years ago . . . (indistinct) Forty thousand? Yes. They say? Forty thousands or something, forty. Oh, but it wasn't civilized. It wasn't developed. Huh? It wasn't civilized. The Pleistocene is one million, Pleistocene. But the brain developed 40,000. Because the life was beginning from microbic. But ours is in the beginning there was Brahmās brain, who is in charge of creating this universal affair. How many years is that calculated? That you cannot calculate. It's logical that things were originally very big or very developed and then became degraded, and it isn't logical that things were originally small and became developed, because everything we see in the material world becomes eroded or becomes degraded over a period of time. A big stone gets washed down. From nature we see that things start nice and decay. Therefore this supports our facts also, that there was high civilization, not a civilization that's lower. It supports that. *Yes. That is called Kali*-yuga. Yes. Everything is degraded. Some people ask why there are no signs of dinosaurs at the time of Rāmacandra. Sometimes they ask that. So who knows? Who says there was no dinosaur? Because it's not . . . And what is that nonsense, dinosaur? That is manufactured by Darwin. They put together the bones. Big bones. Big bones. Big bones can be had still. Timiṅgala . Also people were bigger at that time, so the little animals might have been bigger. No. Apart from that, the timiṅgala is there. It is about maybe two miles, three miles long. What is that? In the Pacific Ocean, if there is a fish two miles long, what is that? Oh, the timiṅgila fish. They swallow whales. In the *Rāmāyaṇa* it talks about large birds, but it doesn't mention dinosaur. But dinosaur, it is English word. There may be some Sanskrit. Just like timiṅgala. Timiṅgala you will not find in the English dictionary, but this word is there. In the Bhāgavata there is timiṅgala . We haven't got to tax our brain so much for these thing, but we can have an idea of the whole universe through the knowledge given by Bhāgavata . That is all. We are not concerned where is the sun, where is the Mars. We kick all these things. We go to Vaikuṇṭha. (laughter) Right. Even there are such things—there are undoubtedly—we don't care for these billion planets. We don't care. Like the scientists were arguing. Recently they made a big campaign against astrology because they said that the stars and the planets have no influence on human behavior or human life; therefore astrology is useless. So I was saying to one man that the scientists say here that the planets and the stars have no influence on human life; therefore why are they spending so much time studying them and trying to go to them, if they have no influence? Waste of time. Then how long they will study? Even they study . . . As long as they can get money from the government, they'll study. . . . what they will study? Their lifetime will be finished, and they are going to be a dog. Then instead of studying, they will bark. What they are going to do then? It's nonsense. There are so many people who just do nonsense in the name of science because they are weakened. They don't have an idea of the meaning of life, so they say: "The quest for new worlds." They don't even know what they're questing for. Nonsense. And what benefit they will get? No benefit, except money. I read in the paper . . . From an economic point of view, it is simply waste of money. But they will do it. One scientist did research in Texas . . . For knowledge sake, we have got this Bhāgavata. Bhāgavata says it is like this. That's all. Why shall I go to research unless I have got some business? Because they are not satisfied. They want to see something new. We are satisfied with the nectar of the Bhāgavata . They want something new because they're dissatisfied. Huh? They're dissatisfied, so they want something new. *Dissatisfied is the material life. Nobody is satisfied with any position. That is material world. If you have got one thousand rupees, you are not satisfied. If you have got one million rupees, you are not satisfied. If you have got many millions of rupees, you are not . . . Birla, ask them: "Are you satisfied? Why you are doing business? Go on." Nobody is satisfied. Indra is not satisfied, Candra is not satisfied. There is fight between the demons and devotees. This is material world—nobody can be satisfied. Therefore Vāmanadeva says that it is not possible to be satisfied. When Bali Mahārāja said that, "You are so learned*-speaking that Your instruction are to be accepted by the greatest learned man, but still You are so childish that You are asking me three feet of land. This is Your childish innocence. So why not ask more?" But He said: "No. Why shall I ask more? If I ask more, that will not satisfy Me. If I ask more, that will not satisfy Me. It will never satisfy Me. The best thing is, now whatever I need at the present moment, that much I want." And He is giving reason that, "A beggar should not ask from the giver more than what is absolutely necessary. So why shall I ask more?" Bali Mahārāja was inducing it that, "He is a child, so what three feet will do of this beggar?" He did not know that two feet is sufficient to cover up and down. So for argument's sake, that "You are asking me just like a . . . exactly as You are small boy." It also states in the *Bhāgavatam* that a beggar should not ask something that someone cannot give. No. Beggar, they should ask alms, little—not big amount from one person. The brahmacārī was sent house to house. Begging means alms, muṣṭi , for muṣṭi . So any family, one palmful of rice to give anyone in those days, practically. (long pause) So, where I have to go now? We were thinking that it would be good if you rested for today. Huh? We were thinking that it would be good if you rested for the day and didn't go down, because yesterday you were quite tired after you went down. If you have to go out tomorrow morning, better thing is to rest completely today, and not strain yourself. Have at least one more day full rest. Because yesterday was the first time that you've had a full meal also. (end) Conversation -- July 25, 1976, London (at the house of Ksirodakasayi dasa) (kīrtana in background) *. . . was sitting previously, which was being worshiped, Sanātana was being worshiped at this place. So he sat down because he was thinking that he was good as standing up, same as standing up. So one Vaiṣṇava priest who was taking care of the place, he threw him out. So in the book they complained that the Vaiṣṇavas are considered to be very narrow*-minded. (laughter) Now I can understand . . . Here. He was kicked out. Yes, the boy threw him out. So they were complaining about this. Just see. How bogus he was. No, when I go to met in . . . (indistinct) . . . that, in the beginning that Prabhavananda, the rascal said that, "RamaKṛṣṇa was formerly Caitanya Mahāprabhu." He began like that. Then I could understand, "What a rascal he is, and I have to waste my time." So I did not answer anything. I said: "Thank you very much for your meeting," and I went out. This rascal's first proposal was that RamaKṛṣṇa Thakur was formerly Caitanya. This is the beginning. He was so rascal. (pause) This is framework house. Hare Kṛṣṇa. If some of the svāmīs may have said, they say that, "Why you call us rascal and so many things?" So you say that, "We are not calling you; Kṛṣṇa says. So we are pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have to repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's it. We cannot help it. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ ( BG 7.15). So you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore you must be mūḍha ." . . . (indistinct Hindi) The best thing Kṛṣṇa has to say about them is that they are abuddhayaḥ . The best thing Kṛṣṇa says about them is they are unintelligent. Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ (BG 7.24). *Abuddhayaḥ , no intelligence. And similarly, those who are demigod*-worshiper, they have been described naṣṭa-buddhayaḥ , "Lost of intelligence." These are statements in the Bhagavad-gītā . We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness; we have to say. How we can avoid this? It may be displeasing to you, but we are not sorry. (laughter) We are not sorry. No, I mean to say the other party. But we have to say it. No, they all very pleased. They are all very pleased there. I say, when you can get off and Prabhupāda again comes, take prasādam , you can get off on that. They are waiting, but they will not take prasāda unless Prabhupāda's . . . they are about . . . over about two hundred people now. This temple here, all garden full. Yes. So they liked. Yes, they liked very much. But I spoke very strong thing against RamaKṛṣṇa. Because you spoke the truth, facts. And I challenged that, "Any question? Please come." (indistinct) . . . couldn't say anything. Dr. Kapoor says that . . . O.B.L. Kapoor? Vṛndāvana? Vṛndāvana, yes. That, "Bhaktivedanta Swami speaks as strongly as Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī was speaking." You know that? Oh, yes. I met so many times. I understand also. He said that. Very nice compliment. He also said that, "Śrīla Prabhupāda is only one who has really taken the . . . his mission seriously." That is a fact. Of course, I don't say myself. That will not look good. But there is other . . . (indistinct conversation in background) They, all my Godbrothers, realize it. "But he is the only representative." Somebody, they frankly admit, and somebody do not. I met . . . some, they are starting coming here to see how the things are. (laughs) They all came. Still they are coming. I think . . . somebody said that Bon Mahārāja came. He came here? Pardon? Not here. I mean in London. Not here. I never invite anybody, Prabhupāda. No, no. London he came? Yes, I heard. I don't know. Somebody was telling. And then so many svāmīs , so many, from Vṛndāvana they are coming. Because many, many guests come, Prabhupāda, in the week or during the day. They tell me that "Would you like to go? Some svāmī has come, some . . ." "Our svāmī is already here." (laughs) That's it. They invite some invitation. They have had a big international religious conference in Millford a few weeks back, and all the professors, universities and big, big shark . . . I have got not got the English . . . Mūḍhas . (laughs) Mūḍhas , yes. So I understand . . . some of the friends he said it was a big feast and all that, but there was nothing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They never talk about the Lord. They were simply arguing each other, "I think so." (laughs) This is their business. Big, big professor from the university, from Glasgow, so many professors. Big pamphlet came to me. They all send it . . . at least, they send it to this place here. I know from where they get the address or the name all that, and they send, many, many of these new societies. You're becoming famous. (laughs) No, no. Guru Mahārāja becomes. Keep our standard. Then everyone will give assistance. We got many times, many very distinguished . . . one time that church vicar has come here to see how things are. Chinese people came, Englishmen. One of the lady, not very far from here, she came one morning, said: "My brother is in the hospital, and he is very sick. I know you are a pious people. Can you pray for him?" And "You never . . . you pray the Lord. You come here. Lord is here." And . . . Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not very far from here. Said: "We hear the noise in the morning, and we have got these feelings that these are very good thing." An English lady. Oh, this was an English person who came. English, yes. She is feeling in the heart. To jo wo laundry ka business tha. So that laundry business that was there.) Poocha tha Prabhupad. (I enquired Prabhupāda.) Wo makan me abhi koi hai? (Does anyone live in that house?) Wo laundry ka dekhbal karta hai. (He looks after the laundry.) Wo laundry ka businesss achha chal raha hai. (The laundry business is doing well.) . . . bus bhagvan ki seva ho jaye to sab accha hai nahi to kuch accha nahi hai. Apna to yehi kaam hai ki. (If we are able to serve the Lord then everything is good, otherwise nothing is good. That is our work if we can do it.) By your grace, Kṛṣṇa is here, and we have no intention to come from there. I had intention that let the children go back home. And we fight, all this stuff. I say, "All right, we must start to fully educate him." Full education is that he become advanced in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . (indistinct) That's all right. So I said: "We haven't got any education." Under the law of this country, if they have to remain here, they have to go up to sixteen years to the school. And if they're qualified, then they . . . No, education is good, but the association is . . . No, they don't have any asso . . . they don't go anywhere. They don't eat anywhere. Even so many invitation comes, either they go to the library or they go to the temple or this place. They have no friends, nothing else. No friends. They don't even take the water anywhere, even to my brother's house. They don't take anywhere. Your brother is also here? Yes, he's here now. And he was not very good terms last eight years with me. But when I established this temple, by your grace, Prabhupāda, he has also realized it now that this is good. And my difference with him was that, "You should give up this nonsense of drinking this, all these things." That was only . . . nothing else, about money or anything. I say, "I cannot eat at your place unless you give up these things." I go there, don't eat anything. Still, he drinks. Still he drinks. That is the fact. He doesn't eat meat, of course, but he says . . . he has got business, good business, plenty of money. I am poor materially, but Prabhupāda, my father, spiritual father, is so rich that I am getting money every day. Materially, I am poor, but I am so richer, you are giving so treasure . . . you see in our library there, we have so many nice library of each and every of your book downstairs, and more we read, we say, well plenty money is coming. (break) . . . from the temple. Life Member comes there. We sell the Gujarati magazine. I brought all magazines from Gujarati. Now second issue has not come. The same problem. I don't . . . This is . . . have printed. But whatever I brought, it went within two, three weeks. So Yaśomatīnandana? Ha uske letter aya hai ki: (Yes, his letter has come that:) "The next issue is in the press, and I'll soon send." And Gopāla dāsa I also written. Because there are many Gujaratis here, and they are becoming Life Members. They have been very much in the temple. Anybody comes here, we send out to the Manor. I say: "Here Kṛṣṇa is . . . here we are. Here we have got everything by Kṛṣṇa's grace, and all the help should go to this center." You are preparing something of bitter melon? Bitter? You mean the . . . Karelās , yes. *Brinjal also. Brinjal . Brinjal I have got. To Prabhupada wo Bhagavad*-gītā ka ye hai Gopal das ne kaha ki translation karo to 2 to 4 chapter humne kiya hai . . . karte raho. waise accha hai 3 to 4 aadmi ko . . . aisa kiya hai to jo bhi hain devotee hain, professional hain ya educated hain. (So Prabhupada, the Bhagavad-gītā Gopal dasa told me to translate, so I translated 2 to 4 chapters . . . keep doing . . . but it is nice 3 to 4 people . . . we have done like this. So whatever it is they are devotees, they are professionals or they are educated.) (break) Theek hai sab Vaikunth chale jayenge. (All right, everyone will go to the Vaikuntha planets.) *Hindi me Bhagavad*-gītā chapne chahiye bahut jaldi. (The Bhagavad-gītā should be printed in Hindi as soon as possible.) How much is left? No, no, we just starting it. Prabhupāda approved that, starting, starting with two chapters three times. *No, you can do one thing. Part by part, you publish in the Bhāgavata*-darśana so that he can . . . everyone can see how it is. Then it will be good. Oh, yes. No, I showed to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu when he came here. He also came here when he came to London. He came one day here, so I showed all these and I read little bit. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa himself is not very expert. No. So he said that, "Śrīla Prabhupāda is coming now," so if you get a chance . . . No, I mean to say that whatever you have written, let it be published in the . . . Yes, I understand . . . so that everyone can see. Then we can understand. I see. So I will send to India chapter by chapter, and they can publish . . . *With a letter that, "Prabhupāda says like this, that you print in the Hindi edition of Bhāgavata*-darśana so that everyone will see, and they will judge how it is done nicely." Should I make this? Yes. I'll send the first chapter complete. Yes. Duplicate it and keep one copy with me here and one copy send off, and they can publish in the Back to Godhead here. The difficulty is that in India, in different parts of India different standard. Somebody says: "This standard is good", somebody says: "This standard is good." Well, we are not worried about the criticism. Eh? We are not worried about the criticism, anybody say. What you say, we'll take that one line, the guideline. No, I am not authority in Hindi, but this Hindi, different parts of India, a different standard. Yes, that's true. That is why I had not depend on myself. It going there from the four people different, one after another, and they are qualified Sanskrit and Hindi scholars. That's all right. Let it be published. Complete corrections also. It's not going by . . . So you can show me some samples which you have completed. Yes, you can show me some. (Indian man enters and speaks with Kṣīrodakaśāyī) Śrīla Prabhupāda, devotees are asking can you take prasāda and go to Manor? There's some press coming, but without you they're . . . is it all right? Oh, yes. All right. I will take some time. Is it all right? I ordered . . . Others, they are also waiting. The Indians, they are . . . So let them all take. You can also go down. (break) (Prabhupāda moves outside) If you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Now it's recording. (break) . . . word by word. Kīrtimā: And translate into English. Yes, you have to do it. Give him the book. Simply book. Why you are taking this? Here? Yes. *Ye Bhagavad*-gītā ka tervan adhyay hai prakriti aur anand bhogta ka chetna. (This is the 13th chapter of Bhagavad-gītā , "Nature, the Enjoyer and Consciousness".) Uske pehle ye do slok hain. (There are two verses before that.) Should I read the translation in Hindi? Yes, so that . . . Arjuna said: O my dear Kṛṣṇa, I wish to know about prakṛti [nature], puruṣa [the enjoyer], and the field and the knower of the field, and of knowledge and the object of knowledge. The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: This body, O son of Kuntī, is called the field, and one who knows this body is called the knower of the field. Thoda explain karo. (Explain a little more.) *Arjun jo hai vo bhagavan sri Kṛṣṇa se jijnasa kar rahe hain prakriti ke vishay mein. Hum log sab jante hain ke prakriti kya hai. aap inse poochiye koi kehta hai ki supreme nature hai magar vo ye nahi janta ki supreme nature kiska nature hai. Aap jante hain ki apka prakriti mai prakriti se alag hai. Jahan prakriti hai waha kehte hain supreme nature wo sabse badi cheez hai. To humlog ko poochna chahiye kiska nature, kiski prakriti. Bhagavad*-gītā me phir kehte hain " mayadhyaksena prakritih suyate sa-caracaram " mere nirdeshan me ye prakriti jo hai karya kar rahi hai. To jaha prakriti hai vahan purush bhi hai. (Arjuna is enquiring from Kṛṣṇa about nature. We all know what is material. You ask them, some say it is supreme nature but they don’t know whom this supreme nature belongs to. You know that . . . nature is different from your nature. Where there is nature, it is said that supreme nature is the biggest asset. So we must ask whose nature.) Bhagavan Sri Kṛṣṇa jo hai vo param purush. Is tarah se jo apne sharir ko janta hai sharir ko shetra kaha gaya hai aur sharir ke andar jo atma hai use kshetragnya mana gaya hai. To Arjun jo hai vo bhagavan se jijnasa kar rahe hain ki prakriti kise kehte hain, purush kaun hai ye kshetra kya cheez hai aur kshetragnya kyunki hamare sri Kṛṣṇa bhavanamrit andolan ka moolbhoot siddhant ye hai ki humlog ye sharir nahi hain. Aap coat kameez pehne hue hain hum apse baat kar rahe hain apke kameez ya coat ko hum nahi dekhte usi tarah humlog ka ye jo sri Kṛṣṇa bhavanamrit ka andolan hai humlog ye kehte hain ki sab jeev, manushya hi nahi sab jeev bhagavan ke ansh hain kyunki unme atma hai. Bhagavan ka ek naam paramatma kaha jata hai, param atma vo sab ke atma hain aur humlog unke chote se ansh hain. Is tarah se hum sab chahe vo american ho ya african ho chahe bhartiya ho chahe german ho koi bhi ho usko hum ye prachar karte hain ki tum ye sharir nahi ho bhagavan ke ansh ho bhagavan ke das ho bhagvan ke sevak ho aur tumhara ye kartavya hai ki tum bhagavan ki seva karo. *(In Bhagavad*-gītā it is said " Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥsūyate sa-carācaram ", this nature is working under my direction, so where there is nature there is enjoyer also. Bhagavan Sri Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer. In this way one who knows his body, the body is called a field and the soul, which is inside the body is called the knower of the field. So Arjuna is enquiring from Sri Kṛṣṇa that, "What is nature? Who is enjoyer? What is this field and knower of the field?" Because the basic philosophy of our Kṛṣṇa Consciousness movement is, "We are not this body". You are wearing this coat-shirt and I am talking to you but I am not looking at your dress. Just like that, this Kṛṣṇa Consciousness movement that we have—that all entities, not only humans. All living entities are part and parcel of the Lord because everyone has a soul. One of the names of God is Paramātmā param ātmā—He is seated in everyone’s heart as Paramātmā and we are his tiny parts. In this way all of us—whether he is American, African, Indian, German—whoever it is, we preach to them that, "You are not this body, you are part of God, his servant, his follower and it is your duty that you serve God.") *Haat jo hai wo apke sharir ka ang hai, yadi haat khush hona chahta hai to jab vo bhojan utha ke moo me dalega aur pet me jab bhojan pahunchega to haat apne*-aap khush ho jayega kyunki haat jo hai wo sharir ka hissa hai. To humlog jo hain bhagavan ka hissa hain yadi hum bhagavan ka seva karenge apne-aap hum khush ho jayenge nahi to haat bine pet me bhojan diye khush hona chahta hoon khush nahi ho payega chahe gulab-jamoon rakha ho haat use choota rahe magar haat jab tak moo me nahi dalega tab tak wo khush nahi hoga. Is tarah humlog jo jeev-matr hain jab tak bhagavan ke seva nahi karenge khush nahi ho sakte. Ye machli hai usko aap pani se nikal dijiye. (This hand is part of your body and if your hand wants to be happy. Then when he picks up food and puts it in his mouth, and when the food reaches the stomach, then the hand becomes happy automatically because the hand is part of the body. Similarly we are part of God, and if we serve Him then automatically we become happy. Without offering food to the stomach, the hand will not be happy. If sweet meat balls are kept in front of you, unless you take if and put it into your mouth, the hand will not be happy—we will not be happy. Similarly, we who are living entities — unless we offer service to the Lord, we will not be happy. This fish, if you remove it from the water, it will not be happy.) *Aur chahe bahut bade bhavan me rakh dijiye, usko TV, sofa*-set sab de dijiye, machli mar jayegi pani se bahar nikalte hi. Wohi dasha hamari hai, humlog tadap rahe hain kyunki bhagavan ko bhool gaye hain. To bhagavan ko yaad karne ke liye phir se vapas janm me chale jayenge to khush ho jayenge. (Whether you keep it in a big mansion, give it a TV, give a sofa — give everything — the fish will die as soon as you take it out of water. Similarly, in our condition we are restless because we have forgotten God. So to remember God, we should again take birth — then we will be happy.) Jab arjun ne in sab vishayon ke bare me Sri Kṛṣṇa se poocha, to bhagavan ne kaha ki is sharir ko hum kshetra kehte hain aur jo is sharir ko janta hai use kshetrgna ya knower of the field kaha jata hai. Ye sharir jo hai, ye badh atma jo humlog hain unke liye atma kriya kshetra hai. Atma jaroor hai hum me par atma sharir ke madhyam se kaam karti hai. Atma jab sharir se chali jati hai to hai to hai wohi sharir haat na dekh sakta hai, na aap naak se soongh sakte hain, usi sharir ko jala diya jata hai. Aap jinda sharir ko jalaiye koi soch bhi nahi sakta, lekin atma chali jati hai. To atma jab tak thi uske madhyam se hum dekh rahe hain, bol rahe hain, sun rahe hain. (And then Arjuna enquired about all this from Sri Kṛṣṇa, then God said that we call this body the field. The one who knows this body is called the knower of the field. We have this body, we are conditioned souls. For them the soul is the field of action. We definitely have a soul, but it is working through the medium of this body. When the soul leaves the body then with the same body the hand cannot be seen, the eyes cannot see, the nose cannot smell and we burn the same body. Nobody can think of burning a live body, but when the soul leaves the body — unless the soul was there in the body we could see, speak or hear.) Sri Kṛṣṇa samjha rahe hain ki ye sharir jo hai wo karya kshetra hai, atma to mukhya cheez hai, atma sharir ke madhyam se karya karti hai. Jo humlog ye badh jeev hain . . . (Sri Kṛṣṇa is explaining this body is a field of action, the soul is an important fact — the soul does the work through the body. We are conditioned souls . . .) Jaise ye chashma hai ye chashma dekhta nahi aankh dekhta hai chashma ka through se. Agar koi kehta hai ki chashma dekhta hai to vo murkh hai. chashma nahi dekhta hai. Usi prakar atma jo hai use khestrgna kaha jata hai. Jo kshetragna asal cheez hai, yeh kshetra, sharir asal cheez nahi hai, ye madhyam hai. jaise udharan diya gaya to chashma se dekhte hain, chashma nahi dekhta hai, usko samajhna chahiye. (Like these specks are there but the specks do not see, the eyes see through the specks. If someone says that the specks see, then he is a fool. The specks do not see. Similarly, the soul is called the knower of the field — this is the real fact but the body is not real. It is a medium, the example is given that the specks do not see, the eyes see through specks — we must understand this.) To is tarah se hum jo baddh jeev jo hai maya ke chakkar me pade hain aur humlog bhautik prakriti ke swami banane ki koshish kar rahe hain. Bhagvan koi nahi hai, hum hain, hum khush ho jaye. Hum apni shakti ke anusar is prakriti pe kabja karne ki koshish karte hain, adhikar jamane ki koshish karte hain chahe wo aadmi bada ho, chota ho, janwar ho sab yahi sochte hain ki main iska malik hoon. (So like this, we who are conditioned souls, we are under the spell of maya . We are trying to lord it over nature, "There is no God, we are God, we must be happy. According to our strength, we try to capture nature, establish our authority over nature." Whether he is a big or small man or animal — everyone thinks that I am the owner of this nature.) Chota sa chuha hai apne samarth ke anusar chura layega, aadmi bada hai wo badi chori karta hai ye sab chori kar rahe hain bhagvan ka bina bhagvan ko malik samjhe. Isopanishad me ek sloka aata hai . . . (Even a small rat, according to its strength, steals something from somewhere—a big man steals big things. Everyone is stealing from God without accepting God as the owner. In the Sri Isopanisad , there is a verse . . .) Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Ye bhagavan jo hai unka hi sab kuch hai. To jitna apko jaroorat hai aap le lijiye aur baki doosro ke upayog ke liye chod de. Srila Prabhupad udharan dete hain ki ek bag chawal ka ya gehoon ka raaste me pada ho ek chidiya ayegi do dane kha legi aur chali jayegi. Aadmi ayega pehle pet bhar khayega phir jhola uthakar apne ghar me rakh lega. To isi ke karan pure sansar me log jo kasht paa rahe hain khane ki kami hai, anaz ki kami hai, is liye ki anaz hai par usko log chura rahe hain. Ye hamari sampatti hai bina bhagvan ko jane. To hamara jo sharir hai car ka kriya kshetra hai aur sharir kya hai wo indriyon se bana hua hai. (This God everything belongs to Him. So how much you want you take and leave the rest for the benefit of others. Srila Prabhupāda gives an example that a bag of rice or wheat is lying on the street. One bird comes and eats a few grains and flies away but a man comes and first fills his belly and then carries the bag of wheat home. So as a result people are suffering in this world, shortage of food grains, food. Not because food is not there but people are stealing thinking this belongs to me wihtout knowing god. So our body is action field of car and what is body, it is made up of senses.) *Humlog ki panch gyanendriya hoti hai aur paanch karmendiya hoti hai aur ek man aur ahankar. Isliye humlog bhagvan ki bhakti kyunki humlog maya me hain, apne sharir se shoru kar sakte hain. Abhi hum log apna indriya bhog, kewal apne sukh ke liye karya karna chahte hain. shari wohi hai, indriya wohi, jaise aankh, aap aankh se cinema dekh sakte hain aur aap aankh se bhagvan ki murti Sri Radha*-Gokulanada yahan par hain unke darshan kar sakte hain. (We have 5 knowledge-acquiring senses and 5 working senses and one mind and ego. That is why we cannot do devotion to the Lord because we are in illusion. We can start devotion with our body. Now we want to work only for sense gratification, only for our pleasure. The body is the same, the senses are the same. Like our eyes, we can watch movies with our eyes or see the Deities of Sri Radha-Gokulananda which are here, have His darshan .) Indriya wohi hain yadi aap unko bhagavan ke darshan me lagate hain to bhakti ho jati hai nahi to vishay bhog hai. Usme apko kewal . . . sabhi log aajkal bajaye aatma ko samajhne ke apne sharir ko hi khud mante hain. Agar poochiye aap kaun hain, hum bhartiya hain, pacchees saal ke hain, tees saal ke hain, ye sharir, main kaun hoon. aap jante hain apka sharir chota sa tha, main chota tha ab main bada ho gay, main boodha ho jaoonga, to main wohi hoon, vo chota sharir kahan chala gaya, wo bade sharir me ho gaya, isi tarah se jab aap boodhe ho jate hain to atma wohi rehti hai, atma sharir chod kar ke doosre sharir me chali jati hai. (The senses are the same but if you engage them in the service of the Lord then it becomes devotion otherwise it becomes sense gratification. In it you will . . . everyone nowadays, instead of understanding the soul, think that I am this body. If you ask them, they say I am indian, 25 to 30 years old. Who is there in this body? You know that this body was small—I was young, now I have grown up, now I will become old. So I am the same, where is the small boy, it has grown into a big boy. Similarly when you grow old the soul remains the same. The soul leaves the body and enters another body. *Apka jab kameez purana ho jata hai to aap usko chod kar ke nayi kameez le lete hain. Isi tarah atma ka kabhi naash nahi hota. To wo vyakti jo apne ko sharir na mane par atma mane use kshetragnya kehte he knower of the field. Ye ab koi bahut mushkil nahi hai atma me aur sharir me antar samajhna. Srila Prabhupad ne wohi udharan diya jo maine kuch der pehle kaha, humlog bacche the boodha ho gaya, sharir badal raha hai 24 ghante. Vigyan ke anusar bhi apke sharir me kriyayen*-pratikriyayen ho rahin hain, 24 ghante apka sharir badal raha hai, har shan, har pratipal magar atma apki wohi hai. sharir me baithi hui atma jo ki ek vyakti hai wo ek hai, deh badal raha hai. (When your shirt becomes old then you give it up and buy a new shirt. Similarly the soul is never destroyed. So that person who does not think that he is this body but is spirit soul, is called knower of the field. So now it is not difficult to understand the difference between body and soul. Srila Prabhupāda has given the same example which i mentioned before. We were children, then became old. The body is continuously undergoing changes every 24 hours. According to science also, action—reactions are going on in your body, in 24 hours your body is changing, every minute, every second but sould is the same, the soul inside the body which is our identity, body is changing. Yehi antar hai jo deh ke karya ko janta hai aur jo vastvik roop se atma ka Swaroop pehchanta hai usko kshetragya kehte hain. Iccha se hum baddh jeev samajh sakte hain ki hum is sharir se alag hain. Ek chota sa udharan aur de sakte hain; *aap kehte hain mera kaan, mera nak, mera aankh, aap ye bahi kehte mai aankh, mai kaan, iska matlab ki apka kaan apse alag hai. To iska matlab hua ki apka sharir atma se alag hai. Bhagavad*-gītā ke doosre adhyay ka tehravan slok " dehino asmin yatha dehi kaumaram yauvanam zara, tatha dehantram prapatir dhiras tatra na muhyati " jis tarah se dehi is deh me baitha hua hai. Bacche se javaan hota hai phir boodha isi tarah se mrtyu ke samay atma ek sharir ko chod ke doosre sharir me chali jati hai. (This is the difference of one who knows the work of the body and one who actually recognises the existence of the soul, he is known as knower of the field. By our desire, we conditioned souls can understand that we are different from the body. One more example we can give; *you say my ear, my nose, my eyes. You don't say I eyes, I nose, I hand. This means that your eyes are different from you. So this means that your body is sepearte from the soul. In the 13 verse of the 2 chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā " dehino asmin yatha dehi kaumaram yauvanam zara, tatha dehantram prapatir dhiras tatra na muhyati ". Like how the resident is sitting inside the body, from child to youth to old man, the soul leaves the body and enters into another body.) *To jo dhir log hain, gyani log hain, woh ye soch kar dukh nahi karte, log rote hain 'are wo mar gaya'. Kaun mar gaya jisko aap apna samjhte the wo to leta hua hai aur cheez chali gayi uska naash nahi hota hai. Bhagavad*-gītā me adhyay do me, jo ki Gītā ka sar hai usme ye samajhaya gaya hai. Is prakar se jab vyakti ye janta hai uska sharir haemsha badal raha hai wo ye samajhta hai wo kshetragy hai. Kabhi-kabhi humlog samajhte hain ke hum bahut kush hain, main pagal hoon, main aurat hoon, mai kutta hoon, billi hoon to ye main jo hai wo kshetragya hai, kutta billi aurat ye sab sharir aur mai jo atma, jo bhagavan ka ansh hai usko humlog kshetragya kehte hain. (So those who are 'dhira', educated, they are not sad when they think about this. People cry, "Oh, that person died." Who died? The one who you considered your own is lying here and the one that left the body is not perishable. In Bhagavad-gītā in chapter 2, which is the essence of the Gītā , this has been explained. In this way when a peprson knows that his body is ever—changing, he is called a knower of the field. Sometimes we feel that we are very happy, I'm mad, I'm woman, I'm dog, I'm cat—so I'm only knower of the field. The dog, cat—others are all bodies and I'm the soul, part and parcel of God, is the knower of the field.) *Kṛṣṇa has spoken about the kṣetrajña . Kṣetrajña means the knower of the body, as He has already explained that, "I know that this is my finger." I never say: "I finger." So this body is kṣetrajña , the field of activities, and the soul is the proprietor or worker within the body. That is called kṣetrajña . This is already explained. He tried to explain . . . because there are many ladies, so he tried to explain in Hindi. So here in the next verse Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi : "I am also kṣetrajña . I am also one of the knower of the body." So what is the difference between the one kṣetrajña already explained, the soul, and this kṣetrajña , Kṛṣṇa? What is the difference between the two? That is explained here. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am also kṣetrajña ." Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata : "But the distinction is that the individual soul is situated in that particular body, but I am situated in every body, all-pervading." Sometimes they commit mistake that ātmā and Paramātmā, they are the same, but that is not the fact. Here Kṛṣṇa explains very distinctly that, "I am also ātmā , but I am Paramātmā." That is the distinction between God and us. *When Arjuna understood Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Paraṁ brahma. They are anxious to realize Brahman, that I . . . ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi does not mean that, "I am Paraṁ Brahman." I am individual part and parcel of Brahman. Similarly, ātmā , Paramātmā; īśvara , Parameśvara. We should understand this distinction between ātmā , Paramātmā; *Brahman, Para*-brahman; īśvara , Parameśvara. So in the Vedic literature it is said, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1). Īśvara. Īśvara means controller. Every one of us, we are controller, either I control over my family or in my office or in my country. In this way everyone is a controller. I may be a controller. Not may be; in my limited jurisdiction I am also controller. You are also controller. So I may be a little greater controller, you may be smaller controller and somebody may be greater than me. So in this way, if you study controllers, different types of controller, you'll find there is junior and senior. The same person is senior controller in the family, but in the office he's the junior controller. The same person is junior and senior at the same time. Somewhere he is junior, somewhere he is senior. In this way, if you study all different types of controller, you'll see there is duality of controls. But when you approach somebody that He's simply controller—He's not by controlled by others—that is Kṛṣṇa. This is analytical study of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. *So they have studied, all these Vedic scholars, especially Lord Brahmā. This is the statement of Lord Brahmā. Not only Lord Brahmā—Vyāsadeva, Nārada and recently big, big ācāryas , Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, even Śaṅkarācārya, and latest, five hundred years ago, Lord Caitanya—everyone has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme controller. And in the dictionary you'll find what is religion. Religion means to accept a supreme controller. That is religion. So in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam also it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Dharma means the controlling laws given by God. That is called dharma . So real dharma . . . from all Vedic scriptures, from the version of all authorities, it is confirmed that īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1): "Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Every religion has conception of God, but no religious system in this world has got any clear conception of God. But in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is not actually a so*-called religious movement, but it is an educational movement to give information to the human society about God that, "Here is God." You are searching after God, and somebody, in disappointment, saying that, "God is dead." God is neither dead, nor it is fictitious, but it is factual, and here is this God, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). This is the verdict of the Vedic literature. There are may be many other gods. They are expansion of the original Personality of Godhead. If anyone is interested to study the science of God, you'll find it in the Vedic literature, how Kṛṣṇa expands by His plenary portion in different names of God. It is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (BS 5.33). That Absolute Truth is advaita , without any duality; acyuta , infallible. Advaita, acyuta, anādi . Everything has got its beginning, anything you . . . that is our material conception, because we have got the experience—anything we take, it has got a beginning. But Kṛṣṇa, He is described, advaita, acyuta, anādi: "He has no beginning." And in another place it is also said: Kāraṇam is the beginning. So just like my father is the cause of my personality; father, his father is the cause of his personality; *in this way you try to find out the cause of the cause. You'll find Kṛṣṇa as the cause of all causes. Sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam . Everything must be caused by something. Cause and effect. So the śāstra gives the verdict that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes. *So this institution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we have started. Now we have opened this center. I am very glad that you are coming here, but study the science of Kṛṣṇa. Don't remain blind. The science of Kṛṣṇa means science of God. The human life is meant for understanding the science of God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This is the Vedānta*-sūtra . "This human form of life is meant for inquiring about the Absolute Truth—Brahman." That Brahman, Para-brahman, is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, when Arjuna studied Bhagavad-gītā , his conclusion was . . . he addressed immediately, Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Bhavān: "Yourself . . ." So don't waste your time even by a minute. Try to understand the science of Kṛṣṇa. That is the only business. Other business, they are subsidiary. They are not very important business. Why Kṛṣṇa understanding is important business? Because it will give you liberation from this material conditional life. We are foolishly thinking we are very independent, we can do whatever we like. But that is not the fact. The fact is we are completely dependent on the laws of material nature. Even if you defy a little bit, immediately you'll be punished. That is the strict laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). *So we do not understand. There is no education throughout the whole world how we are being controlled by the material nature and why we are being controlled. Why we are put into this position of being controlled? These questions should be raised. That is human life. Otherwise it is animal life. The cats and dogs, they cannot inquire, "Why I am being controlled?" But they agree to be controlled. But human life there is struggle. They are called struggle for existence. They are trying to overcome the control of material nature by so*-called scientific method, but that is not the way. You cannot do that. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. Just like their so-called scientific way they are trying to go to the moon planet or Mars planet. Why they are trying to go? Because they are controlled. They have got their flying machine. They can to go any planet, but they cannot, because they are being controlled. So we should come to our senses that we cannot bring the laws of material nature under our control. We are already under the control of the laws of material nature, and that is our conditional life. Actually, we require freedom from conditional life, but that freedom can be achieved when we surrender to Kṛṣṇa. If you actually want to be . . . not to be controlled by the laws of material nature, that you can do. That is possible. And that is possible simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa. *So we are presenting this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not a manufactured thing. We are quoting from Bhagavad*-gītā the same thing. We are not presenting something manufactured. There is no need, because things in perfection is already there in the Bhagavad-gītā . There is no need of manufacturing by fools and rascals. There is no need. Everything is there in perfection. Simply we have to accept it and apply it in practical life. Then our life will be successful. Simply we have to understand it. Kṛṣṇa says that janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). Simply to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is . . . then jānāti tattvataḥ , anyone who is able to understand Kṛṣṇa in truth, then what is the result? The result is tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9): "Such person, after giving up this body, he does not accept another material body." At the present moment we are giving up one material body and accepting another material body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). This is our conditional life, but we are kept in such dense darkness of knowledge that we are thinking that, "We are free. We can do whatever we like." This is very dangerous civilization—no knowledge of the spiritual life, no knowledge how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another, no knowledge what is the future, no knowledge what is the goal of life. Simply like cats and dogs you dance, eat, drink, be merry and die, that's all. This is not good life. You must be very serious, especially those who are Indians. They should take it very seriously. Because this Kṛṣṇa culture, Bhagavad-gītā , was spoken in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra in India, and if we Indians, we do not take full advantage of this great transcendental knowledge, then you are committing suicide. *So my request is, all the Indians who are here in this foreign country, keep your own original culture. Don't forget. Don't be bewildered. Be in your position. Try to under . . . it is very easy. Bhagavad*-gītā is not at all difficult to understand, and we have tried to explain as easy as possible, not that we have deviated from the original verse, just like others do it. We do not do that; *there is no need. That is another blunder. We keep Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and we still try to explain it. So I am very glad that you are all coming regularly, but take it. At least one day, this Sunday, you devote, seriously studying Bhagavad-gītā , and discuss amongst you whenever there is any doubt. There cannot be any doubt. The Bhagavad-gītā verses are so plainly explained, and . . . just like here is one verse we are trying to read, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "My dear Arjuna . . ." Arjuna is addressed as Bhārata. Because he belongs to the dynasty of Bharata, sometimes he's addressed as Bhārata. So, very easy that, "I am also one of the souls. There are two souls. One, you are, and another, I am. So what is the difference between you and Me? That you know simply everything—not everything, but to some extent—about your body, but I know everything of everyone's body." That is the difference. I know the pleasure and pains of my body, you know the pleasure and pains of your body, but Kṛṣṇa knows the pleasure and pains of your body and pleasure and pains of my body. That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and ourself. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is situated . . . Kṛṣṇa is not stereotyped in one place. Kṛṣṇa, He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana: goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ (BS 5.37). That is Kṛṣṇa. I am sitting here; *you are sitting here. I am not in my apartment, but Kṛṣṇa, although He is sitting in this temple, He is present everywhere: aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35). *In this way we have to study Kṛṣṇa very scientifically, and the books are there, we have tried to explain as far as possible. Take advantage of this institution. Don't waste a moment of your life. Take it very seriously. Āyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi na labhyaḥ svarṇa*-koṭibhiḥ (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). This seriousness . . . especially those who are educated, they should take serious consideration of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Try to understand each and every verse of Bhagavad-gītā , especially, and if possible Bhāgavatam . There are so many books. We have got program to publish at least eighty-four books like this, four hundred pages each. So we have already published fifty-four books. So if you want to understand Kṛṣṇa through science and philosophy, read these books. Otherwise—very easy method—come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. There is no difficulty. Thank you very much. Jaya! (end) Conversation -- July 25, 1976, London (at the house of Ksirodakasayi dasa) (kīrtana in background) *. . . was sitting previously, which was being worshiped, Sanātana was being worshiped at this place. So he sat down because he was thinking that he was good as standing up, same as standing up. So one Vaiṣṇava priest who was taking care of the place, he threw him out. So in the book they complained that the Vaiṣṇavas are considered to be very narrow*-minded. (laughter) Now I can understand . . . Here. He was kicked out. Yes, the boy threw him out. So they were complaining about this. Just see. How bogus he was. No, when I go to met in . . . (indistinct) . . . that, in the beginning that Prabhavananda, the rascal said that, "RamaKṛṣṇa was formerly Caitanya Mahāprabhu." He began like that. Then I could understand, "What a rascal he is, and I have to waste my time." So I did not answer anything. I said: "Thank you very much for your meeting," and I went out. This rascal's first proposal was that RamaKṛṣṇa Thakur was formerly Caitanya. This is the beginning. He was so rascal. (pause) This is framework house. Hare Kṛṣṇa. If some of the svāmīs may have said, they say that, "Why you call us rascal and so many things?" So you say that, "We are not calling you; Kṛṣṇa says. So we are pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have to repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's it. We cannot help it. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ ( BG 7.15). So you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore you must be mūḍha ." . . . (indistinct Hindi) The best thing Kṛṣṇa has to say about them is that they are abuddhayaḥ . The best thing Kṛṣṇa says about them is they are unintelligent. Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ (BG 7.24). *Abuddhayaḥ , no intelligence. And similarly, those who are demigod*-worshiper, they have been described naṣṭa-buddhayaḥ , "Lost of intelligence." These are statements in the Bhagavad-gītā . We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness; we have to say. How we can avoid this? It may be displeasing to you, but we are not sorry. (laughter) We are not sorry. No, I mean to say the other party. But we have to say it. No, they all very pleased. They are all very pleased there. I say, when you can get off and Prabhupāda again comes, take prasādam , you can get off on that. They are waiting, but they will not take prasāda unless Prabhupāda's . . . they are about . . . over about two hundred people now. This temple here, all garden full. Yes. So they liked. Yes, they liked very much. But I spoke very strong thing against RamaKṛṣṇa. Because you spoke the truth, facts. And I challenged that, "Any question? Please come." (indistinct) . . . couldn't say anything. Dr. Kapoor says that . . . O.B.L. Kapoor? Vṛndāvana? Vṛndāvana, yes. That, "Bhaktivedanta Swami speaks as strongly as Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī was speaking." You know that? Oh, yes. I met so many times. I understand also. He said that. Very nice compliment. He also said that, "Śrīla Prabhupāda is only one who has really taken the . . . his mission seriously." That is a fact. Of course, I don't say myself. That will not look good. But there is other . . . (indistinct conversation in background) They, all my Godbrothers, realize it. "But he is the only representative." Somebody, they frankly admit, and somebody do not. I met . . . some, they are starting coming here to see how the things are. (laughs) They all came. Still they are coming. I think . . . somebody said that Bon Mahārāja came. He came here? Pardon? Not here. I mean in London. Not here. I never invite anybody, Prabhupāda. No, no. London he came? Yes, I heard. I don't know. Somebody was telling. And then so many svāmīs , so many, from Vṛndāvana they are coming. Because many, many guests come, Prabhupāda, in the week or during the day. They tell me that "Would you like to go? Some svāmī has come, some . . ." "Our svāmī is already here." (laughs) That's it. They invite some invitation. They have had a big international religious conference in Millford a few weeks back, and all the professors, universities and big, big shark . . . I have got not got the English . . . Mūḍhas . (laughs) Mūḍhas , yes. So I understand . . . some of the friends he said it was a big feast and all that, but there was nothing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They never talk about the Lord. They were simply arguing each other, "I think so." (laughs) This is their business. Big, big professor from the university, from Glasgow, so many professors. Big pamphlet came to me. They all send it . . . at least, they send it to this place here. I know from where they get the address or the name all that, and they send, many, many of these new societies. You're becoming famous. (laughs) No, no. Guru Mahārāja becomes. Keep our standard. Then everyone will give assistance. We got many times, many very distinguished . . . one time that church vicar has come here to see how things are. Chinese people came, Englishmen. One of the lady, not very far from here, she came one morning, said: "My brother is in the hospital, and he is very sick. I know you are a pious people. Can you pray for him?" And "You never . . . you pray the Lord. You come here. Lord is here." And . . . Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not very far from here. Said: "We hear the noise in the morning, and we have got these feelings that these are very good thing." An English lady. Oh, this was an English person who came. English, yes. She is feeling in the heart. To jo wo laundry ka business tha. So that laundry business that was there.) Poocha tha Prabhupad. (I enquired Prabhupāda.) Wo makan me abhi koi hai? (Does anyone live in that house?) Wo laundry ka dekhbal karta hai. (He looks after the laundry.) Wo laundry ka businesss achha chal raha hai. (The laundry business is doing well.) . . . bus bhagvan ki seva ho jaye to sab accha hai nahi to kuch accha nahi hai. Apna to yehi kaam hai ki. (If we are able to serve the Lord then everything is good, otherwise nothing is good. That is our work if we can do it.) By your grace, Kṛṣṇa is here, and we have no intention to come from there. I had intention that let the children go back home. And we fight, all this stuff. I say, "All right, we must start to fully educate him." Full education is that he become advanced in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . (indistinct) That's all right. So I said: "We haven't got any education." Under the law of this country, if they have to remain here, they have to go up to sixteen years to the school. And if they're qualified, then they . . . No, education is good, but the association is . . . No, they don't have any asso . . . they don't go anywhere. They don't eat anywhere. Even so many invitation comes, either they go to the library or they go to the temple or this place. They have no friends, nothing else. No friends. They don't even take the water anywhere, even to my brother's house. They don't take anywhere. Your brother is also here? Yes, he's here now. And he was not very good terms last eight years with me. But when I established this temple, by your grace, Prabhupāda, he has also realized it now that this is good. And my difference with him was that, "You should give up this nonsense of drinking this, all these things." That was only . . . nothing else, about money or anything. I say, "I cannot eat at your place unless you give up these things." I go there, don't eat anything. Still, he drinks. Still he drinks. That is the fact. He doesn't eat meat, of course, but he says . . . he has got business, good business, plenty of money. I am poor materially, but Prabhupāda, my father, spiritual father, is so rich that I am getting money every day. Materially, I am poor, but I am so richer, you are giving so treasure . . . you see in our library there, we have so many nice library of each and every of your book downstairs, and more we read, we say, well plenty money is coming. (break) . . . from the temple. Life Member comes there. We sell the Gujarati magazine. I brought all magazines from Gujarati. Now second issue has not come. The same problem. I don't . . . This is . . . have printed. But whatever I brought, it went within two, three weeks. So Yaśomatīnandana? Ha uske letter aya hai ki: (Yes, his letter has come that:) "The next issue is in the press, and I'll soon send." And Gopāla dāsa I also written. Because there are many Gujaratis here, and they are becoming Life Members. They have been very much in the temple. Anybody comes here, we send out to the Manor. I say: "Here Kṛṣṇa is . . . here we are. Here we have got everything by Kṛṣṇa's grace, and all the help should go to this center." You are preparing something of bitter melon? Bitter? You mean the . . . Karelās , yes. *Brinjal also. Brinjal . Brinjal I have got. To Prabhupada wo Bhagavad*-gītā ka ye hai Gopal das ne kaha ki translation karo to 2 to 4 chapter humne kiya hai . . . karte raho. waise accha hai 3 to 4 aadmi ko . . . aisa kiya hai to jo bhi hain devotee hain, professional hain ya educated hain. (So Prabhupada, the Bhagavad-gītā Gopal dasa told me to translate, so I translated 2 to 4 chapters . . . keep doing . . . but it is nice 3 to 4 people . . . we have done like this. So whatever it is they are devotees, they are professionals or they are educated.) (break) Theek hai sab Vaikunth chale jayenge. (All right, everyone will go to the Vaikuntha planets.) *Hindi me Bhagavad*-gītā chapne chahiye bahut jaldi. (The Bhagavad-gītā should be printed in Hindi as soon as possible.) How much is left? No, no, we just starting it. Prabhupāda approved that, starting, starting with two chapters three times. *No, you can do one thing. Part by part, you publish in the Bhāgavata*-darśana so that he can . . . everyone can see how it is. Then it will be good. Oh, yes. No, I showed to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu when he came here. He also came here when he came to London. He came one day here, so I showed all these and I read little bit. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa himself is not very expert. No. So he said that, "Śrīla Prabhupāda is coming now," so if you get a chance . . . No, I mean to say that whatever you have written, let it be published in the . . . Yes, I understand . . . so that everyone can see. Then we can understand. I see. So I will send to India chapter by chapter, and they can publish . . . *With a letter that, "Prabhupāda says like this, that you print in the Hindi edition of Bhāgavata*-darśana so that everyone will see, and they will judge how it is done nicely." Should I make this? Yes. I'll send the first chapter complete. Yes. Duplicate it and keep one copy with me here and one copy send off, and they can publish in the Back to Godhead here. The difficulty is that in India, in different parts of India different standard. Somebody says: "This standard is good", somebody says: "This standard is good." Well, we are not worried about the criticism. Eh? We are not worried about the criticism, anybody say. What you say, we'll take that one line, the guideline. No, I am not authority in Hindi, but this Hindi, different parts of India, a different standard. Yes, that's true. That is why I had not depend on myself. It going there from the four people different, one after another, and they are qualified Sanskrit and Hindi scholars. That's all right. Let it be published. Complete corrections also. It's not going by . . . So you can show me some samples which you have completed. Yes, you can show me some. (Indian man enters and speaks with Kṣīrodakaśāyī) Śrīla Prabhupāda, devotees are asking can you take prasāda and go to Manor? There's some press coming, but without you they're . . . is it all right? Oh, yes. All right. I will take some time. Is it all right? I ordered . . . Others, they are also waiting. The Indians, they are . . . So let them all take. You can also go down. (break) (Prabhupāda moves outside) If you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Now it's recording. (break) . . . word by word. Kīrtimā: And translate into English. Yes, you have to do it. Give him the book. Simply book. Why you are taking this? Here? Yes. *Ye Bhagavad*-gītā ka tervan adhyay hai prakriti aur anand bhogta ka chetna. (This is the 13th chapter of Bhagavad-gītā , "Nature, the Enjoyer and Consciousness".) Uske pehle ye do slok hain. (There are two verses before that.) Should I read the translation in Hindi? Yes, so that . . . Arjuna said: O my dear Kṛṣṇa, I wish to know about prakṛti [nature], puruṣa [the enjoyer], and the field and the knower of the field, and of knowledge and the object of knowledge. The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: This body, O son of Kuntī, is called the field, and one who knows this body is called the knower of the field. Thoda explain karo. (Explain a little more.) *Arjun jo hai vo bhagavan sri Kṛṣṇa se jijnasa kar rahe hain prakriti ke vishay mein. Hum log sab jante hain ke prakriti kya hai. aap inse poochiye koi kehta hai ki supreme nature hai magar vo ye nahi janta ki supreme nature kiska nature hai. Aap jante hain ki apka prakriti mai prakriti se alag hai. Jahan prakriti hai waha kehte hain supreme nature wo sabse badi cheez hai. To humlog ko poochna chahiye kiska nature, kiski prakriti. Bhagavad*-gītā me phir kehte hain " mayadhyaksena prakritih suyate sa-caracaram " mere nirdeshan me ye prakriti jo hai karya kar rahi hai. To jaha prakriti hai vahan purush bhi hai. (Arjuna is enquiring from Kṛṣṇa about nature. We all know what is material. You ask them, some say it is supreme nature but they don’t know whom this supreme nature belongs to. You know that . . . nature is different from your nature. Where there is nature, it is said that supreme nature is the biggest asset. So we must ask whose nature.) Bhagavan Sri Kṛṣṇa jo hai vo param purush. Is tarah se jo apne sharir ko janta hai sharir ko shetra kaha gaya hai aur sharir ke andar jo atma hai use kshetragnya mana gaya hai. To Arjun jo hai vo bhagavan se jijnasa kar rahe hain ki prakriti kise kehte hain, purush kaun hai ye kshetra kya cheez hai aur kshetragnya kyunki hamare sri Kṛṣṇa bhavanamrit andolan ka moolbhoot siddhant ye hai ki humlog ye sharir nahi hain. Aap coat kameez pehne hue hain hum apse baat kar rahe hain apke kameez ya coat ko hum nahi dekhte usi tarah humlog ka ye jo sri Kṛṣṇa bhavanamrit ka andolan hai humlog ye kehte hain ki sab jeev, manushya hi nahi sab jeev bhagavan ke ansh hain kyunki unme atma hai. Bhagavan ka ek naam paramatma kaha jata hai, param atma vo sab ke atma hain aur humlog unke chote se ansh hain. Is tarah se hum sab chahe vo american ho ya african ho chahe bhartiya ho chahe german ho koi bhi ho usko hum ye prachar karte hain ki tum ye sharir nahi ho bhagavan ke ansh ho bhagavan ke das ho bhagvan ke sevak ho aur tumhara ye kartavya hai ki tum bhagavan ki seva karo. *(In Bhagavad*-gītā it is said " Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥsūyate sa-carācaram ", this nature is working under my direction, so where there is nature there is enjoyer also. Bhagavan Sri Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer. In this way one who knows his body, the body is called a field and the soul, which is inside the body is called the knower of the field. So Arjuna is enquiring from Sri Kṛṣṇa that, "What is nature? Who is enjoyer? What is this field and knower of the field?" Because the basic philosophy of our Kṛṣṇa Consciousness movement is, "We are not this body". You are wearing this coat-shirt and I am talking to you but I am not looking at your dress. Just like that, this Kṛṣṇa Consciousness movement that we have—that all entities, not only humans. All living entities are part and parcel of the Lord because everyone has a soul. One of the names of God is Paramātmā param ātmā—He is seated in everyone’s heart as Paramātmā and we are his tiny parts. In this way all of us—whether he is American, African, Indian, German—whoever it is, we preach to them that, "You are not this body, you are part of God, his servant, his follower and it is your duty that you serve God.") *Haat jo hai wo apke sharir ka ang hai, yadi haat khush hona chahta hai to jab vo bhojan utha ke moo me dalega aur pet me jab bhojan pahunchega to haat apne*-aap khush ho jayega kyunki haat jo hai wo sharir ka hissa hai. To humlog jo hain bhagavan ka hissa hain yadi hum bhagavan ka seva karenge apne-aap hum khush ho jayenge nahi to haat bine pet me bhojan diye khush hona chahta hoon khush nahi ho payega chahe gulab-jamoon rakha ho haat use choota rahe magar haat jab tak moo me nahi dalega tab tak wo khush nahi hoga. Is tarah humlog jo jeev-matr hain jab tak bhagavan ke seva nahi karenge khush nahi ho sakte. Ye machli hai usko aap pani se nikal dijiye. (This hand is part of your body and if your hand wants to be happy. Then when he picks up food and puts it in his mouth, and when the food reaches the stomach, then the hand becomes happy automatically because the hand is part of the body. Similarly we are part of God, and if we serve Him then automatically we become happy. Without offering food to the stomach, the hand will not be happy. If sweet meat balls are kept in front of you, unless you take if and put it into your mouth, the hand will not be happy—we will not be happy. Similarly, we who are living entities — unless we offer service to the Lord, we will not be happy. This fish, if you remove it from the water, it will not be happy.) *Aur chahe bahut bade bhavan me rakh dijiye, usko TV, sofa*-set sab de dijiye, machli mar jayegi pani se bahar nikalte hi. Wohi dasha hamari hai, humlog tadap rahe hain kyunki bhagavan ko bhool gaye hain. To bhagavan ko yaad karne ke liye phir se vapas janm me chale jayenge to khush ho jayenge. (Whether you keep it in a big mansion, give it a TV, give a sofa — give everything — the fish will die as soon as you take it out of water. Similarly, in our condition we are restless because we have forgotten God. So to remember God, we should again take birth — then we will be happy.) Jab arjun ne in sab vishayon ke bare me Sri Kṛṣṇa se poocha, to bhagavan ne kaha ki is sharir ko hum kshetra kehte hain aur jo is sharir ko janta hai use kshetrgna ya knower of the field kaha jata hai. Ye sharir jo hai, ye badh atma jo humlog hain unke liye atma kriya kshetra hai. Atma jaroor hai hum me par atma sharir ke madhyam se kaam karti hai. Atma jab sharir se chali jati hai to hai to hai wohi sharir haat na dekh sakta hai, na aap naak se soongh sakte hain, usi sharir ko jala diya jata hai. Aap jinda sharir ko jalaiye koi soch bhi nahi sakta, lekin atma chali jati hai. To atma jab tak thi uske madhyam se hum dekh rahe hain, bol rahe hain, sun rahe hain. (And then Arjuna enquired about all this from Sri Kṛṣṇa, then God said that we call this body the field. The one who knows this body is called the knower of the field. We have this body, we are conditioned souls. For them the soul is the field of action. We definitely have a soul, but it is working through the medium of this body. When the soul leaves the body then with the same body the hand cannot be seen, the eyes cannot see, the nose cannot smell and we burn the same body. Nobody can think of burning a live body, but when the soul leaves the body — unless the soul was there in the body we could see, speak or hear.) Sri Kṛṣṇa samjha rahe hain ki ye sharir jo hai wo karya kshetra hai, atma to mukhya cheez hai, atma sharir ke madhyam se karya karti hai. Jo humlog ye badh jeev hain . . . (Sri Kṛṣṇa is explaining this body is a field of action, the soul is an important fact — the soul does the work through the body. We are conditioned souls . . .) Jaise ye chashma hai ye chashma dekhta nahi aankh dekhta hai chashma ka through se. Agar koi kehta hai ki chashma dekhta hai to vo murkh hai. chashma nahi dekhta hai. Usi prakar atma jo hai use khestrgna kaha jata hai. Jo kshetragna asal cheez hai, yeh kshetra, sharir asal cheez nahi hai, ye madhyam hai. jaise udharan diya gaya to chashma se dekhte hain, chashma nahi dekhta hai, usko samajhna chahiye. (Like these specks are there but the specks do not see, the eyes see through the specks. If someone says that the specks see, then he is a fool. The specks do not see. Similarly, the soul is called the knower of the field — this is the real fact but the body is not real. It is a medium, the example is given that the specks do not see, the eyes see through specks — we must understand this.) To is tarah se hum jo baddh jeev jo hai maya ke chakkar me pade hain aur humlog bhautik prakriti ke swami banane ki koshish kar rahe hain. Bhagvan koi nahi hai, hum hain, hum khush ho jaye. Hum apni shakti ke anusar is prakriti pe kabja karne ki koshish karte hain, adhikar jamane ki koshish karte hain chahe wo aadmi bada ho, chota ho, janwar ho sab yahi sochte hain ki main iska malik hoon. (So like this, we who are conditioned souls, we are under the spell of maya . We are trying to lord it over nature, "There is no God, we are God, we must be happy. According to our strength, we try to capture nature, establish our authority over nature." Whether he is a big or small man or animal — everyone thinks that I am the owner of this nature.) Chota sa chuha hai apne samarth ke anusar chura layega, aadmi bada hai wo badi chori karta hai ye sab chori kar rahe hain bhagvan ka bina bhagvan ko malik samjhe. Isopanishad me ek sloka aata hai . . . (Even a small rat, according to its strength, steals something from somewhere—a big man steals big things. Everyone is stealing from God without accepting God as the owner. In the Sri Isopanisad , there is a verse . . .) Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Ye bhagavan jo hai unka hi sab kuch hai. To jitna apko jaroorat hai aap le lijiye aur baki doosro ke upayog ke liye chod de. Srila Prabhupad udharan dete hain ki ek bag chawal ka ya gehoon ka raaste me pada ho ek chidiya ayegi do dane kha legi aur chali jayegi. Aadmi ayega pehle pet bhar khayega phir jhola uthakar apne ghar me rakh lega. To isi ke karan pure sansar me log jo kasht paa rahe hain khane ki kami hai, anaz ki kami hai, is liye ki anaz hai par usko log chura rahe hain. Ye hamari sampatti hai bina bhagvan ko jane. To hamara jo sharir hai car ka kriya kshetra hai aur sharir kya hai wo indriyon se bana hua hai. (This God everything belongs to Him. So how much you want you take and leave the rest for the benefit of others. Srila Prabhupāda gives an example that a bag of rice or wheat is lying on the street. One bird comes and eats a few grains and flies away but a man comes and first fills his belly and then carries the bag of wheat home. So as a result people are suffering in this world, shortage of food grains, food. Not because food is not there but people are stealing thinking this belongs to me wihtout knowing god. So our body is action field of car and what is body, it is made up of senses.) *Humlog ki panch gyanendriya hoti hai aur paanch karmendiya hoti hai aur ek man aur ahankar. Isliye humlog bhagvan ki bhakti kyunki humlog maya me hain, apne sharir se shoru kar sakte hain. Abhi hum log apna indriya bhog, kewal apne sukh ke liye karya karna chahte hain. shari wohi hai, indriya wohi, jaise aankh, aap aankh se cinema dekh sakte hain aur aap aankh se bhagvan ki murti Sri Radha*-Gokulanada yahan par hain unke darshan kar sakte hain. (We have 5 knowledge-acquiring senses and 5 working senses and one mind and ego. That is why we cannot do devotion to the Lord because we are in illusion. We can start devotion with our body. Now we want to work only for sense gratification, only for our pleasure. The body is the same, the senses are the same. Like our eyes, we can watch movies with our eyes or see the Deities of Sri Radha-Gokulananda which are here, have His darshan .) Indriya wohi hain yadi aap unko bhagavan ke darshan me lagate hain to bhakti ho jati hai nahi to vishay bhog hai. Usme apko kewal . . . sabhi log aajkal bajaye aatma ko samajhne ke apne sharir ko hi khud mante hain. Agar poochiye aap kaun hain, hum bhartiya hain, pacchees saal ke hain, tees saal ke hain, ye sharir, main kaun hoon. aap jante hain apka sharir chota sa tha, main chota tha ab main bada ho gay, main boodha ho jaoonga, to main wohi hoon, vo chota sharir kahan chala gaya, wo bade sharir me ho gaya, isi tarah se jab aap boodhe ho jate hain to atma wohi rehti hai, atma sharir chod kar ke doosre sharir me chali jati hai. (The senses are the same but if you engage them in the service of the Lord then it becomes devotion otherwise it becomes sense gratification. In it you will . . . everyone nowadays, instead of understanding the soul, think that I am this body. If you ask them, they say I am indian, 25 to 30 years old. Who is there in this body? You know that this body was small—I was young, now I have grown up, now I will become old. So I am the same, where is the small boy, it has grown into a big boy. Similarly when you grow old the soul remains the same. The soul leaves the body and enters another body. *Apka jab kameez purana ho jata hai to aap usko chod kar ke nayi kameez le lete hain. Isi tarah atma ka kabhi naash nahi hota. To wo vyakti jo apne ko sharir na mane par atma mane use kshetragnya kehte he knower of the field. Ye ab koi bahut mushkil nahi hai atma me aur sharir me antar samajhna. Srila Prabhupad ne wohi udharan diya jo maine kuch der pehle kaha, humlog bacche the boodha ho gaya, sharir badal raha hai 24 ghante. Vigyan ke anusar bhi apke sharir me kriyayen*-pratikriyayen ho rahin hain, 24 ghante apka sharir badal raha hai, har shan, har pratipal magar atma apki wohi hai. sharir me baithi hui atma jo ki ek vyakti hai wo ek hai, deh badal raha hai. (When your shirt becomes old then you give it up and buy a new shirt. Similarly the soul is never destroyed. So that person who does not think that he is this body but is spirit soul, is called knower of the field. So now it is not difficult to understand the difference between body and soul. Srila Prabhupāda has given the same example which i mentioned before. We were children, then became old. The body is continuously undergoing changes every 24 hours. According to science also, action—reactions are going on in your body, in 24 hours your body is changing, every minute, every second but sould is the same, the soul inside the body which is our identity, body is changing. Yehi antar hai jo deh ke karya ko janta hai aur jo vastvik roop se atma ka Swaroop pehchanta hai usko kshetragya kehte hain. Iccha se hum baddh jeev samajh sakte hain ki hum is sharir se alag hain. Ek chota sa udharan aur de sakte hain; *aap kehte hain mera kaan, mera nak, mera aankh, aap ye bahi kehte mai aankh, mai kaan, iska matlab ki apka kaan apse alag hai. To iska matlab hua ki apka sharir atma se alag hai. Bhagavad*-gītā ke doosre adhyay ka tehravan slok " dehino asmin yatha dehi kaumaram yauvanam zara, tatha dehantram prapatir dhiras tatra na muhyati " jis tarah se dehi is deh me baitha hua hai. Bacche se javaan hota hai phir boodha isi tarah se mrtyu ke samay atma ek sharir ko chod ke doosre sharir me chali jati hai. (This is the difference of one who knows the work of the body and one who actually recognises the existence of the soul, he is known as knower of the field. By our desire, we conditioned souls can understand that we are different from the body. One more example we can give; *you say my ear, my nose, my eyes. You don't say I eyes, I nose, I hand. This means that your eyes are different from you. So this means that your body is sepearte from the soul. In the 13 verse of the 2 chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā " dehino asmin yatha dehi kaumaram yauvanam zara, tatha dehantram prapatir dhiras tatra na muhyati ". Like how the resident is sitting inside the body, from child to youth to old man, the soul leaves the body and enters into another body.) *To jo dhir log hain, gyani log hain, woh ye soch kar dukh nahi karte, log rote hain 'are wo mar gaya'. Kaun mar gaya jisko aap apna samjhte the wo to leta hua hai aur cheez chali gayi uska naash nahi hota hai. Bhagavad*-gītā me adhyay do me, jo ki Gītā ka sar hai usme ye samajhaya gaya hai. Is prakar se jab vyakti ye janta hai uska sharir haemsha badal raha hai wo ye samajhta hai wo kshetragy hai. Kabhi-kabhi humlog samajhte hain ke hum bahut kush hain, main pagal hoon, main aurat hoon, mai kutta hoon, billi hoon to ye main jo hai wo kshetragya hai, kutta billi aurat ye sab sharir aur mai jo atma, jo bhagavan ka ansh hai usko humlog kshetragya kehte hain. (So those who are 'dhira', educated, they are not sad when they think about this. People cry, "Oh, that person died." Who died? The one who you considered your own is lying here and the one that left the body is not perishable. In Bhagavad-gītā in chapter 2, which is the essence of the Gītā , this has been explained. In this way when a peprson knows that his body is ever—changing, he is called a knower of the field. Sometimes we feel that we are very happy, I'm mad, I'm woman, I'm dog, I'm cat—so I'm only knower of the field. The dog, cat—others are all bodies and I'm the soul, part and parcel of God, is the knower of the field.) *Kṛṣṇa has spoken about the kṣetrajña . Kṣetrajña means the knower of the body, as He has already explained that, "I know that this is my finger." I never say: "I finger." So this body is kṣetrajña , the field of activities, and the soul is the proprietor or worker within the body. That is called kṣetrajña . This is already explained. He tried to explain . . . because there are many ladies, so he tried to explain in Hindi. So here in the next verse Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi : "I am also kṣetrajña . I am also one of the knower of the body." So what is the difference between the one kṣetrajña already explained, the soul, and this kṣetrajña , Kṛṣṇa? What is the difference between the two? That is explained here. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am also kṣetrajña ." Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata : "But the distinction is that the individual soul is situated in that particular body, but I am situated in every body, all-pervading." Sometimes they commit mistake that ātmā and Paramātmā, they are the same, but that is not the fact. Here Kṛṣṇa explains very distinctly that, "I am also ātmā , but I am Paramātmā." That is the distinction between God and us. *When Arjuna understood Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Paraṁ brahma. They are anxious to realize Brahman, that I . . . ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi does not mean that, "I am Paraṁ Brahman." I am individual part and parcel of Brahman. Similarly, ātmā , Paramātmā; īśvara , Parameśvara. We should understand this distinction between ātmā , Paramātmā; *Brahman, Para*-brahman; īśvara , Parameśvara. So in the Vedic literature it is said, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1). Īśvara. Īśvara means controller. Every one of us, we are controller, either I control over my family or in my office or in my country. In this way everyone is a controller. I may be a controller. Not may be; in my limited jurisdiction I am also controller. You are also controller. So I may be a little greater controller, you may be smaller controller and somebody may be greater than me. So in this way, if you study controllers, different types of controller, you'll find there is junior and senior. The same person is senior controller in the family, but in the office he's the junior controller. The same person is junior and senior at the same time. Somewhere he is junior, somewhere he is senior. In this way, if you study all different types of controller, you'll see there is duality of controls. But when you approach somebody that He's simply controller—He's not by controlled by others—that is Kṛṣṇa. This is analytical study of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. *So they have studied, all these Vedic scholars, especially Lord Brahmā. This is the statement of Lord Brahmā. Not only Lord Brahmā—Vyāsadeva, Nārada and recently big, big ācāryas , Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, even Śaṅkarācārya, and latest, five hundred years ago, Lord Caitanya—everyone has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme controller. And in the dictionary you'll find what is religion. Religion means to accept a supreme controller. That is religion. So in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam also it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Dharma means the controlling laws given by God. That is called dharma . So real dharma . . . from all Vedic scriptures, from the version of all authorities, it is confirmed that īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1): "Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Every religion has conception of God, but no religious system in this world has got any clear conception of God. But in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is not actually a so*-called religious movement, but it is an educational movement to give information to the human society about God that, "Here is God." You are searching after God, and somebody, in disappointment, saying that, "God is dead." God is neither dead, nor it is fictitious, but it is factual, and here is this God, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). This is the verdict of the Vedic literature. There are may be many other gods. They are expansion of the original Personality of Godhead. If anyone is interested to study the science of God, you'll find it in the Vedic literature, how Kṛṣṇa expands by His plenary portion in different names of God. It is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (BS 5.33). That Absolute Truth is advaita , without any duality; acyuta , infallible. Advaita, acyuta, anādi . Everything has got its beginning, anything you . . . that is our material conception, because we have got the experience—anything we take, it has got a beginning. But Kṛṣṇa, He is described, advaita, acyuta, anādi: "He has no beginning." And in another place it is also said: Kāraṇam is the beginning. So just like my father is the cause of my personality; father, his father is the cause of his personality; *in this way you try to find out the cause of the cause. You'll find Kṛṣṇa as the cause of all causes. Sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam . Everything must be caused by something. Cause and effect. So the śāstra gives the verdict that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes. *So this institution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we have started. Now we have opened this center. I am very glad that you are coming here, but study the science of Kṛṣṇa. Don't remain blind. The science of Kṛṣṇa means science of God. The human life is meant for understanding the science of God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This is the Vedānta*-sūtra . "This human form of life is meant for inquiring about the Absolute Truth—Brahman." That Brahman, Para-brahman, is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, when Arjuna studied Bhagavad-gītā , his conclusion was . . . he addressed immediately, Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Bhavān: "Yourself . . ." So don't waste your time even by a minute. Try to understand the science of Kṛṣṇa. That is the only business. Other business, they are subsidiary. They are not very important business. Why Kṛṣṇa understanding is important business? Because it will give you liberation from this material conditional life. We are foolishly thinking we are very independent, we can do whatever we like. But that is not the fact. The fact is we are completely dependent on the laws of material nature. Even if you defy a little bit, immediately you'll be punished. That is the strict laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). *So we do not understand. There is no education throughout the whole world how we are being controlled by the material nature and why we are being controlled. Why we are put into this position of being controlled? These questions should be raised. That is human life. Otherwise it is animal life. The cats and dogs, they cannot inquire, "Why I am being controlled?" But they agree to be controlled. But human life there is struggle. They are called struggle for existence. They are trying to overcome the control of material nature by so*-called scientific method, but that is not the way. You cannot do that. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. Just like their so-called scientific way they are trying to go to the moon planet or Mars planet. Why they are trying to go? Because they are controlled. They have got their flying machine. They can to go any planet, but they cannot, because they are being controlled. So we should come to our senses that we cannot bring the laws of material nature under our control. We are already under the control of the laws of material nature, and that is our conditional life. Actually, we require freedom from conditional life, but that freedom can be achieved when we surrender to Kṛṣṇa. If you actually want to be . . . not to be controlled by the laws of material nature, that you can do. That is possible. And that is possible simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa. *So we are presenting this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not a manufactured thing. We are quoting from Bhagavad*-gītā the same thing. We are not presenting something manufactured. There is no need, because things in perfection is already there in the Bhagavad-gītā . There is no need of manufacturing by fools and rascals. There is no need. Everything is there in perfection. Simply we have to accept it and apply it in practical life. Then our life will be successful. Simply we have to understand it. Kṛṣṇa says that janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). Simply to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is . . . then jānāti tattvataḥ , anyone who is able to understand Kṛṣṇa in truth, then what is the result? The result is tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9): "Such person, after giving up this body, he does not accept another material body." At the present moment we are giving up one material body and accepting another material body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). This is our conditional life, but we are kept in such dense darkness of knowledge that we are thinking that, "We are free. We can do whatever we like." This is very dangerous civilization—no knowledge of the spiritual life, no knowledge how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another, no knowledge what is the future, no knowledge what is the goal of life. Simply like cats and dogs you dance, eat, drink, be merry and die, that's all. This is not good life. You must be very serious, especially those who are Indians. They should take it very seriously. Because this Kṛṣṇa culture, Bhagavad-gītā , was spoken in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra in India, and if we Indians, we do not take full advantage of this great transcendental knowledge, then you are committing suicide. *So my request is, all the Indians who are here in this foreign country, keep your own original culture. Don't forget. Don't be bewildered. Be in your position. Try to under . . . it is very easy. Bhagavad*-gītā is not at all difficult to understand, and we have tried to explain as easy as possible, not that we have deviated from the original verse, just like others do it. We do not do that; *there is no need. That is another blunder. We keep Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and we still try to explain it. So I am very glad that you are all coming regularly, but take it. At least one day, this Sunday, you devote, seriously studying Bhagavad-gītā , and discuss amongst you whenever there is any doubt. There cannot be any doubt. The Bhagavad-gītā verses are so plainly explained, and . . . just like here is one verse we are trying to read, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "My dear Arjuna . . ." Arjuna is addressed as Bhārata. Because he belongs to the dynasty of Bharata, sometimes he's addressed as Bhārata. So, very easy that, "I am also one of the souls. There are two souls. One, you are, and another, I am. So what is the difference between you and Me? That you know simply everything—not everything, but to some extent—about your body, but I know everything of everyone's body." That is the difference. I know the pleasure and pains of my body, you know the pleasure and pains of your body, but Kṛṣṇa knows the pleasure and pains of your body and pleasure and pains of my body. That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and ourself. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is situated . . . Kṛṣṇa is not stereotyped in one place. Kṛṣṇa, He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana: goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ (BS 5.37). That is Kṛṣṇa. I am sitting here; *you are sitting here. I am not in my apartment, but Kṛṣṇa, although He is sitting in this temple, He is present everywhere: aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35). *In this way we have to study Kṛṣṇa very scientifically, and the books are there, we have tried to explain as far as possible. Take advantage of this institution. Don't waste a moment of your life. Take it very seriously. Āyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi na labhyaḥ svarṇa*-koṭibhiḥ (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). This seriousness . . . especially those who are educated, they should take serious consideration of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Try to understand each and every verse of Bhagavad-gītā , especially, and if possible Bhāgavatam . There are so many books. We have got program to publish at least eighty-four books like this, four hundred pages each. So we have already published fifty-four books. So if you want to understand Kṛṣṇa through science and philosophy, read these books. Otherwise—very easy method—come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. There is no difficulty. Thank you very much. Jaya! (end) Conversation A -- July 26, 1976, London (Conversation with George Harrison) How are you feeling? *I have old man's disease, cough and cold, so coughing. But still, work is going on, and I shall complete eighty years this month. September, eighty*-one. So now, due to age, it is becoming little difficult. Yes. Anyway, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. So how are you? Quite good. Chanting is going on? Yes. Thank you. That is our life and soul. Gṛhe vā vanete thāke, 'hā gaurāṅga' bole ḍāke. Wherever you live, it doesn't matter—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is our only support. (aside) So bring food here. We should . . . have the lunch here? Yes. Bring. All the devotees are looking really good. Eh? The devotees are looking great. Strong. (laughs) Yes. Phalena paricīyate. By the result, one has to study. Yesterday, one devotee's father and mother came, Hari-śauri. She and his father were very pleased to see him healthy, bright. They hadn't seen him for six years. Six years, yes. So we are inviting everyone, "Come here. Such a nice house given by George. (laughs) You live here comfortably, eat nicely, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." We don't want any factory work. No. (laughs) Simply kartāla and mṛdaṅga . Still, people do not come. They'll prefer to go the factory, whole day work in the hell. (laughs) They prefer. I suppose some day the whole of the world will just be chanting in the country. That is not possible. But if some of the leading men, they take it seriously, then others will follow. Just like in our book, your signature is there, "Oh, George Harrison. Yes." They take it, without any consideration, *Kṛṣṇa Book* . Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ ( BG 3.21). If the leading man does something, then his followers also do. This is the way. So if some of the leading men of the world, they take this movement seriously, then people will be happy. There's no doubt about it. You have come alone, without any associate? Just on my own. That's all right. It took me a while to find it. They're always building new roads everywhere and change the whole countryside. So I got a little lost. You came here twice, right? Yes, I've been here three times. Where will you be in India when you go back to India? Most probably in Bombay. Bombay. Yes. You have been in my Bombay? I was going to go to Bombay. Yes, Bombay and Vṛndāvana when they were just building. I was going to go to Bombay . . . Yes. You have been in my Bombay? George Harrison : Yes, Bombay and Vṛndāvana when they were just building. Oh, Vṛndāvana, if you come there, stay for some time. Yes, well, ah, this December . . . We have got very nice houses, both in Bombay and Vṛndāvana. And Māyāpur also. Wherever you like. You will not be very uncomfortable. I was going to go to Bombay for a wedding. Some friends are getting married. When? December the fifth, I think. Very nice season in Bombay. Best time. You know, I think you met Lakshmi Shankar, this lady singer? Her daughter, who is also a singer, Viji, Viji Shri Shankar, and she's marrying a South Indian violin player, L. Shankar. He's also Shankar? Well, he's called L. Shankar. You know that South India they have a funny way around them. They have like a surname. He's just called L. Shankar. His brother is called L. Subhramanyam. Bring small tables to George. (indistinct comments about names) So you never know what the other name is. George says he wants to spend some time in Vṛndāvana. *I was only there for about thirty*-six hours last time. We have got now very good centers. Another gentleman, he's offering us a very good place at Mahābaleśvara. That's one of the famous hillier stations. A very nice climate. So you can come and stay there. We have got now many good centers. Yes. I'll come and see if you're in Bombay, because I'll be near where the temple is. Yes. Bombay is just like garden. Yes. As good as your place here. No. Not so big. It is seventeen acres, and Bombay is five. ( prasādam being served) So, just go on. Give him whatever you have got, give. But don't give much. When he wants something more . . . "Waste not, want not." Give more. That preparation, you can give more. (laughter) Is that cauliflower? No. That is called . . . (indistinct) . . . you can bring it, prasāda . I'll just wash my hands. You can wash here. The sink is there. Here is also water. So you can put the bowls outside, yes, so that there will be sufficient place. Our Indian system is like that. That's all right. You sit down. You also sit down. You get a towel? Yes, thanks. Give him. I see you've done new books. You've been so busy, this is, so many books. *Yes. There are already fifty*-four, and another at least thirty books I have to finish before my death. (laughs) That I am . . . (aside) Give him purī . Where is Ravi Shankar? He's in . . . I think he's in New York. He'll be here the first of August, and then I think he's . . . He has got his house there? In New York? No, just a house in Benares. Benares. He doesn't have anything. He just stays in hotels. I thought in Washington somebody told me that George Washing . . . George Harrison has got his house here. Yes, he had a little house here, but he . . . No, you have got your house in Washington? No. No. (referring to prasādam ) Now we can begin. Okay, Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Nimbu*-pāni ? Hare Kṛṣṇa. You give him two more samosās . He likes it. So now you can begin also. Yes. (background comments while prasādam served) All the boys and girls are so nicely qualified for Kṛṣṇa's service. They are looking better and better all the time. It's nice for me to see Gurudāsa. He's turning into a mountain. (laughter) His wife has also sannyāsī . . . (indistinct) . . . renounced. Have you seen her latest? No. *She has cut hair and white dress, living alone in the temple. Vairagya*-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam (CC Madhya 6.254). This bhakti-yoga means vairagya-vidyā , means detachment. That is the perfection of life. If we remain attached, that is conditional. Māyā has made so many things attractive so that we have to remain attached, and to come out of this attachment is called bhakti . (aside) So one man, you can sit down, you can eat. Pradyumna, you can eat. I've taken some milk before, so . . . Oh, you don't require. Now you can eat, go on. Prasāda prapti mātrena. Our Jayatīrtha Prabhu is good manager. Management, looking after. Yes, he's very good manager, experienced. Hmm? He's experienced manager. Not very good managing this place now. Well, it seems okay. Seems to be ticking over pretty good, peacefully. He was also managing Los Angeles. Yes. Now we have brought him here to see things nicely managed. It feels good, nice vibrations. Yes. One thing, Jayatīrtha, why don't you sprinkle this water in this ground? Well, we do sprinkle it. Just have an ordinary pumping, and then it will be green. There's a kind of a limit on the amount of water pressure you can get these days. Limit? It's been a drought in England. There's no . . . very little water. It is very dangerous. Everything is now yellow. It's greener here than most places around, but . . . Everything's so dry this year, lot of trees and things dying without water. *That will be the punishment for this age. It is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . There will be scarcity of rain, and there will be scarcity of food, and heavy taxation by government. And people will become mad on account of these three things. Anāvṛṣṭi, durbhikṣa, kara-pīḍitāḥ (SB 12.2.9). It's getting dryer in England each year. It's like . . . it's probably going to end up as a desert in another hundred years. They expect like that? Well, I don't know. I think the whole world's changing. Somebody said it's the pollution, leave such . . . there's so much of the oceans now with polluted and with oil on the top, there's not so much evaporation anymore. Not in the ocean. It is the sinful activities of the populace. That is real problem. They are all engaged in sinful activities. Especially this innocent animal killing. These are the all reactions. In New York they had one island of refuse floated in to shore. Give him more samosās . For years they were building up island of refuse, and it floated in, and now no one can go to the beaches. Samosā . Where is samosā ? There is only one more left? I'm okay, actually. There is sour cream. I've got plenty, thanks. Prasāda , we can eat up to the neck. (laughter) There is no harm. You'll never get indigestion. You have got some fruits? Yes. There's a very nice mango preparation there. Did you taste? Which one? The chilled mango. Looks like . . . (indistinct) Oh, this one. One German girl has prepared. We are introducing restaurant like this, and people are liking very much. We have got one restaurant in Hawaii, another restaurant we are organizing in Boston. That is being directly done by Alfred. You have met Alfred? Alfred Ford, the grandson of Henry Ford. No, I've never met him. *Oh. He is also very nice boy. Of course, younger than you. He's only twenty*-four years. What is your age now? *Thirty*-three. *Thirty*-three. That boy is also very nice young boy. Give Jayatīrtha? Huh? No? Do you feed everybody who comes Sunday? Hundreds. Sunday we have about five hundred to one thousand. Yes. So they must cook for days to feed all those people. No, day before, night before. Do they bring food as well? They bring grains or something like that, in bulk. *We had very gorgeous Ratha*-yātrā ceremony in New York last Sunday. Hmm? Sunday, eighteenth. A week ago yesterday. Last Sunday. Give . . . We fed about ten thousand that day. Cauliflower. Take little. I can't finish. (laughter) I'm trying to finish one so I can start on the next. I was sick also, lately. I had something, I went yellow. I had jaundice. Jaundice? Hmm. I don't know why. Just had food poisoning or something, and it affected my liver. Who cooks for you? Sometimes me, sometimes, ah . . . I don't know, I think we'd had some Chinese food. Oh, you should not take. But I was working as well, so I, you know, I think I was pretty tired. Better you cook simple food yourself and take it. The only thing I could eat was papaya. Papaya is very good, yes. (to prasādam servers) Give him, give him, give him. I still have . . . No, that is the different. Oh, all right. We are just attempting a big planetarium in Māyāpur. We have asked government to acquire land, 350 acres. That is negotiation are going on. We shall give a Vedic planetarium. Is that the one you were talking about? With all the . . . In the Fifth Canto. The planetarium will be 350 feet high and show the cosmology of the spiritual world and the material world. The construction will be like your Washington Capitol, like that. A big dome. Yes. Estimated eight crores of rupees. (pause) Is there any dahī preparation? There's only one. Oh, that's all right. Now, there is fruit. You . . . Very good. Fantastic. What would you like? Something of everything? Two pieces . . . Maybe just a little bit of, but now I'm not . . . thanks. That's fine. No, okay. Thanks, fine. That's enough, that's fine. That watermelon, you can give more. It is water. Now let me finish all of this. This is that mango preparation. Okay. It's coming. You like that preparation? Yes. We used to have this with milk at Rishikesh. Every day they'd leave outside of the door. It's good. (pause) Do you, Mukunda, do you break even with all the costs, running cost? Do you do okay with all this food and fruit and stuff? Oh, yes. More than even. We have about thirteen hundred Life Members in the Indian community. And then when they come on the weekends they bring food, they bring these hundred pound donations, put money in the box. At one time you just had the Godhead and incense. Yes, now it's all public support. We don't sell incense anymore. And the books we just sell for very little; we hardly make any money on them at all. Are you reading sometimes my books? Which one? Mainly Kṛṣṇa . That is the main book. (laughs) Mukunda gave me the new books, but there's so much in . . . ah, there's just so much to read. Philosophy. I don't know how anybody could have written it, it's difficult enough to read all that amount. Sometimes they are surprised how one man can write so many books, but it is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise is not possible. Humanly it is not possible. *That one series of books I brought you, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Oh, yes. Hari-śauri? There is no sweet melon. And every single word is written by hand, five hundred years ago. No sweet melon? (background comments about melon) You are in the same house? Hmm? Henley. Henley, yes. Very nice house. Hmm, very nice. I work from the house. I have a studio, recording studio in the house. So I don't have to go to London anymore. Oh, you have all arrangement there. That's very nice. How many acres? *It's about thirty*-five. Oh, very good area. Did you get that other land? Yes, only five hundred pounds. Really? Amazing. Five hundred pounds! Yes, for four acres. That's quite cheap. Yes, we were really surprised. But if it hadn't been for that, we'd have had no cow pasture. Cows are out there. We have got one cow—many cows in Philadelphia—the milk bags, she gives hundred and two pounds daily. Of milk? Who owns this? Who milks the cows? Some of the devotees. We have got tanks for storing milk. Tanks. Yes? *Yes. All up*-to-date refrigerator and everything. That extra milk they are selling. Similarly, in New Vrindavan we are getting one thousand pounds milk daily. One thousand pounds. That's our place in Virginia. How many cows? Must be hundreds of them. But the Philadelphia is more organized. Yes. Through the nozzles, milk carrying, always hot water is washing it. There's much better facility in that Pennsylvania place. New Vrindavan's kind of a . . . they built up from scratch by themselves. Rustic. Yes, rustic is the word. (laughter) Pennsylvania, they bought this fabulous farm all made up. Pradyumna, give him little, this one here. Oh, no, no. Please, no more. I'm really full. I won't have to eat for a few days. (laughter) Sweets. Very well. Sweet will help you digest. Don't give three—at least four. I won't be able to eat much more. Three is given to the enemy. According to our Indian system, if you give somebody three, that means he is enemy. Oh, really? I always liked the number three. (laughs) You must give at least four. I like three, five, seven, nine. Those numbers. Tri-śatru What are the three enemies? Kāma, krodha . . . Lobha . Lust, anger, greed. Three enemies Three enemies—lusty desire, anger and greediness. Yes. But there's a lot of nice threes. Yes. Just like Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. Three. Three worlds: Svarga, Martya, Pātāla. Trinity. These are nice things. *Tri*-guṇa. *Tri*-guṇa , yes. The three modes, they're not so nice. Well, they're all necessary. Yes. I met, I think, one of your master's other devotees. I forget his name. Gosvāmī, big, in Vṛndāvana. Big, tall, with a staff, bald hair. Said you knew his name? Puruṣottama? Puruṣottama? Yes. In Vṛndāvana. He's not a sannyāsī . Pardon? He's not sannyāsī . Oh, well, the one I met had a staff. Maybe it was a different one. Mādhava Mahārāja maybe. Maybe Mādhava Mahārāja. He's big. He's my Godbrother. Yes, but he didn't talk English. But all the people I was with said he spoke very good Sanskrit, had a good understanding of Sanskrit. But I couldn't understand anything that he . . . you know . . . I just watched him. I think Puruṣottama Gosāi. He's talking of Puruṣottama. Gosāi. He's blackish? No. Not fair complexion. Puruṣottama. I think he was fair, but he was very tall, very big, and you know, like this, huge size. Well, he had a place where I stayed the night. That's his place, Puruṣottama Gosāi. He's not a sannyāsī . He's not sannyāsī , he is householder. He's married man. Yes, he had . . . his son lived there. Yes. But maybe he's taken, I don't know. I thought he had a daṇḍa , one of those staffs. I saw the little temple in the garden, had the Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, where they stay in bed. It's like a bed like this. You know the one? Nidhuvana Mandir. Nidhuvana. Nidhuvana Mandir. I saw that, where He's been out all night so He doesn't get up until ten o'clock in the morning. You have not seen our temple since it is inaugurated? No. No. This time you come. Many thousand people come to see Deity. I saw the photograph, looks really nice. It's big. Now they say it's the most beautiful modern temple in Vṛndāvana. You have seen our . . . there is any film of the temple? No, but there's photographs. We have a nice photograph in the reception room downstairs. Actually it was half built. Yes. Even the building you went into, there's more, up, the roof. That courtyard is very beautiful. There is a tāmala tree. That is a very valuable tree. The Bisanchand Seth asked me to cut. Yes, I remember. What a nonsense, such a . . . I remember that. He has no idea. Now, on account of that tree, it looks so beautiful. Yes. It's very wonderful. The whole tree has flourished since the temple began. We planned the whole temple around that tree. The whole plans. It's a big old tree? Tree's just in the courtyard of the temple, so we left it there. Tāmala tree is the same color as Kṛṣṇa, śyāma . Like a fresh rain cloud color. So when Rādhārāṇī sees the tree, She thinks of Kṛṣṇa. So when we see the tree we think of Kṛṣṇa. And Śrīla Prabhupāda sits underneath the tree and watches. Rādhārāṇī in separation was embracing that tree, tāmala tree. And they say that in Vṛndāvana, only there are four tāmala trees left. Yes, they've said four or six. Very few. Is this tree still living? Yes, it's alive. (finishes prasādam ) My compliments to the chef. (laughter) What is this water? Lemonade. Is there any more? I just took it out. I can get some. Bring little. I'll wash my hands. (indistinct conversation) So I am very much pleased that you take so much trouble to come here. It's my pleasure. (to Hari-śauri) Yes, give me little for drinking. You want little more? Are you ever going to stop traveling? That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. I don't want, personally, but if Kṛṣṇa wants, that is everything. We have got now hundred and two centers, different parts of the world. Still six more to go. Yes. (laughter) We have got a very nice house in Detroit. If you sometimes go there you'll see. Whereabouts? Detroit. Ah, Detroit. They need one there. Crazy place. Heavy place. That house was constructed fifty years ago at the cost of six million dollar, and we have got it very cheap. Three hundred thousand dollars. Was it a big house? A very big mansion on the riverside. Colonial house? Not as big—four acres of land—but the building is very costly. One room will cost now three hundred thousand dollars. So nicely made. They estimated it would cost about fifteen million to build such a house now. Yes, they probably wouldn't even bother or be able to, at least. Is it an old house? Fifty years old. It's very solid though, very good condition as well. And on the house on bottom, there is river. Not directly, but an offshoot of river. People come, rowing. A very nice situation. And because it is black quarter, nobody was purchasing. So I said that "For us, what is black and white? Purchase it." So we got very cheap. At that time I paid them hundred and fifty thousand, and . . . (indistinct) . . . Elizabeth. We purchased. Did they have a temple in Hamburg? In Hamburg. I was there once, but they just had a little tiny house, and they were trying to get another. Hamburg, I think closed? They have a place in Frankfurt, where the devotees are . . . just outside of Frankfurt. So they haven't got a place in Hamburg. No, it's a heavy city. I was there one year when they were having fights. It's . . . Rockers. It's a heavy place. Rockers. It is full of gangs. And we have got another palace . . . what is that village? South of Paris? That one? No, France. Yes, south of Paris. It's near a place called Valencay. Very nice place. French chateau. It's on about 250 acres. Really? Huge fields, beautiful place. I'll show you a picture of it. Yes. So that was the goal, isn't it? One hundred and eight temples. Should be able to do it this year, I think. Eh? We should have a hundred and eight this year, I think. Centers. One hundred and eight centers. Oh. Temples and farms. But we want worker. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is giving us so many centers. Yes. In India I can get so many places, but how to manage? Simply taking from persons, and if I cannot manage nicely, that does not look well. Therefore I say first of all get men, then take donation, there is no harm. How many devotees were living here? There's about a hundred, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yes, then it is all right. And if there was no devotees, ten devotees, then how could we manage? We have about fifteen devotees that work full time on the grounds. So what is the difficulty sprinkling water that quarter? It is costly? We'll try to sprinkle more, but there's a lack of water pressure. No, pressure, by pump. That's what we have. We had a little Honda pump, but you had to start it off. It's a gasoline engine, I think. And put one pipe into the lake and just pump out of the lake, and then you have a sprinkler on the other side. Makes a noise, though, that's the only thing. Makes a noise and gives off an exhaust. A pump for, say, one hour, two hour. You could use the water out of the lake, then nobody could really complain about that. That's how we'd have to do it, I think. That probably wouldn't be enough . . . it wouldn't take the level down too much. How do you fill that up? That's a natural watershed. This is the lowest place in the area in about four miles every direction. So we have all those underground water tables feeding it. If there is rain then there is no scarcity of water. The water comes here. Yes. But how, when you drain it, then how did you stop it from filling up? Well, it did fill up in the winter quite a bit, but then in the summer it went back down. It's filled up now—we had to use city water to get it started. But as soon as it rains it goes up about this far. It's evaporated about six inches since. You don't have a well in your place? No, just, well, that bore pond. Originally the lakes all were filled just like this as well as flooding the drains, and when it rained off the house everything would go. And we have a big storage tank, and then there's ballcocks, and underneath that big bank of rhododendrons was like a room built there, which was a storage tank. Then any other water he must have used just from the mains. But these days, you know, they have meters on the mains, so you have to pay for every gallon. What about getting those water diviners to come and find water? Well, you can find it I think anywhere if you just bore a hole. So what we did was just bore at the end of the lake. But you have to go down to the depth of the riverbed, and there there's not much water because the rain. It's all chalk and limestone, so the rain . . . that's the problem with watering in the summer, if you put water . . . From your house the river is near? Yes. Thames? Yes. But then the Thames is here, and we're up on the hill, so we bored a hole right down to the three hundred feet, I think, three hundred and fifty feet, to the level of the river, and then a pump, we can pump that. But when it does rain or if you do water the ground, it's all so chalky that it runs right through it. So it's hard to keep a lot of moisture in the water. But also at the same time all the rain water runs through. When it hits the rock level of the riverbed, there must be tons of water down there. We can pump out of there all day long for months on end, and nothing seems to dry up. Fantastic. You could even do it by hand if you were out of electricity. I mean the hole is . . . the bore hole is actually only about this wide. You can have a little bucket. (laughter) You have to apply for permission, actually, to dig a well, but around here at least you have to get permission. You have to. We did too. You have to put your name on a list, on a public notice in the local papers, and if somebody wants to complain about it, then they have a chance to. And once it's been up there for a few days or a week or something, and if nobody's made any formal complaint for any reason, like maybe they've got one, a bore hole, and you may be tampering there, so then you just go ahead. You know it's all approved, and then your name goes on the list someplace in the county surveyor's office. So you do have to go through a, you know, a couple of months of waiting. Just to, say, bore a hole to replenish, Costs a lot of money for water around here. And you have to just pay for the cost of the bore hole and the pump, to lay out electricity to where the pump is. The pump is, you know, just in the ground. You can't even see it. You know, by that weeping willow tree? So if you want to take little rest, we can arrange for that. Resting. Rest? Yes, for you. No, no. I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you want to rest. No. You take a rest. *I am taking rest now these twenty*-four hours. Now I have no other business than to take rest. (laughter) Always resting at the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. That is real rest. *The Mukunda*-māla-stotra . . . there was a big emperor . . . (indistinct) . . . Kulaśekhara, Emperor Kulaśekhara, he was a great devotee. So he wrote some poetry. Formerly, kings were so advanced, rajarṣi . They are king, at the same time, saintly persons. In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2): this science of Bhagavad-gītā was learned by the rājarṣis . People were happy therefore. The head, or the executive, they were all saintly persons. So this Kulaśekhara, he writes in the beginning of his poetry, "Kṛṣṇa, O Kṛṣṇa . . ." Kṛṣṇa tvādīya-pada-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam . The paṅkaja means lotus flower. So Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet is just like lotus flower. The lotus flower has stem down, and the swans, they take pleasure to go down the water and entangled by the stem. Have you seen their pleasure? Yes. That is their great sporting, to be entangled by the stem and come out, in this way, go deep. This is their sporting. *So this Kulaśekhara is praying, "My Lord Kṛṣṇa, let my swan of mind be entangled with the stem of Your lotus feet." Kṛṣṇa tvādīya*-pada-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam adyaiva : "immediately"— viśatu —"let enter." Who? Adyaiva viśatu me , "my," mānasa-rāja-haṁsaḥ , "my mind, which is just like a swan." So why adyaiva , immediately? He says that prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye, "At the time of death," prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye kapha-vāta-pittaiḥ , "when the physical condition of the body will be in disorder," kapha, pitta, vayu will be not in order . . . prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye kapha-vāta-pittaiḥ kaṇṭhāvarodha , "At that time I shall not be able to speak. I'll ahn, ahn, but that's all. So I may not be able to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Better I am now in good health, so let my mind be entangled in the stem of Your lotus feet." Very nice poetry. *"At that time I may be not able to utter 'Kṛṣṇa' or think of You, and now I am healthy, let me finish this business." That means "Let me die immediately. Now I'm healthy, I'm quite fit." This is the ideal. Ante nārāyaṇa*-smṛtiḥ (SB 2.1.6). At the time of death, if one remembers Kṛṣṇa, then his life is successful. Immediately he goes to Kṛṣṇa. Just like Ajāmila. He chanted "Nārāyaṇa," and immediately his path to Vaikuṇṭha become clear. So this practice means, whatever we practice all through life, there is chance of coming that remembrance at the time of death, and then it is successful, life is success. If at the time of death one can remember Kṛṣṇa, then his whole life is successful. Our one student, Kārtikeya, his mother was very fortunate. So his mother had nothing to do with this Society, but the boy was attached, and she heard several times "Kṛṣṇa," that this boy is attached to Kṛṣṇa. At the time of her death, she asked her son, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" and died. Just see how fortunate she is. She simply uttered this word, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" then she died. Very fortunate. So on account of her son she got salvation. Yes. Otherwise, Kārtikeya told me that he went to see his mother, and the mother was going to ball dance, and the mother did not receive him well. "All right, you sit down. I'll come again." She was such lady. But by Kṛṣṇa's grace, at the time of death, she inquired her son, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" That's . . . (indistinct) . . . very fortunate. When my mother died I had to send my sister and father out of the room, because they were getting emotional, and I just chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa. She chanted. I did. Oh, very nice. So she could hear? I don't know, I don't know. She was in like a coma or something. It was the only thing I could think of. When it happened? In 1970. It was the only thing I could think of that may be of value, you know. Anyway, if she has heard Hare Kṛṣṇa, she'll get benefitted. Either she chants or somebody chanting, if she hears, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam, both the same thing. Little chance. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). So let us practice in such a way that at the time of death we may remember. That is success. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). So you are reading Kṛṣṇa repeatedly? *Kṛṣṇa Book* you are reading repeatedly? Well, you know, I read it every so often. I always take the *Gītā* with me wherever I go. I mean that's the one I just keep all the time. But you know, I'll just sometimes read a little of something, a little bit of something else. I've never been a great reader. (laughs) No, you have got chance here to think soberly. But on account of your chanting "Kṛṣṇa," so many people are chanting. I don't think it's on my account. No, they say: "George chants Hare Kṛṣṇa." They say. Do they not? Yes. And you have got many thousand followers. Well It's nice, but I think we all . . . *Anyway, you go on chanting. That will influence. There is a poetry written by, I think in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , where the Rupa Gosvāmī is wondering, "I do not know what sweetness there in these two words, Kṛṣ-ṇa ." The verse starts with priyo , "dear." *Varna*-dvayī. You remember this verse? No, jane . "What kind of nectar it is there in these two words, Kṛṣ-ṇa ?" You have seen Deity today? No, it was closed. It was closed. It's open again now. When it is open? It's open now. The ārati is going on, the afternoon ārati . Oh. Sometimes you can come and stay here, see the ārati , at least one day, whole program, how they are doing. What is the program whole day? *It starts at four*-fifteen, here. Morning. *Yes, with the ārati , and then we worship Tulasī*-devī, chant japa and then have class, and then prasādam , eight-fifteen. Then during the day we all work, and in the evening again, seven o'clock, everyone comes together for the ārati , class. How is that school in Texas, you know, with all the children? That's gurukula . They have about six schools now. One's at this place in France, they have a school there, this farm. And Dallas, and Los Angeles, Pennsylvania, Māyāpur. Vṛndāvana gurukula also was started. There's all kinds of strange things written in those newspapers, Dallas, strange things. Particularly about the little children's school. It's because they don't bother to find out before they write things. Just like they said that the children sleep in the basement. That's because it was in the hot summer. Everyone goes to the basement in the summer in Dallas. The kids don't feel any difficulty at all sleeping on the floor. Children are naturally austere. It's just after you get to a certain age the conditioning affects you. They said they live without furniture. (laughter) They're prejudiced about those things. They have to eat with their hands. (laughter) You have got the last copy of Seventh Canto? Seven, Three? Yes. There's some books that came out since I brought those last books. There's also somebody, I think it was a guy who was trying to get his wife back or something. (laughs) I know it was in California . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was saying, "They've stolen my wife." These stories kill me. I mean, it's so funny because the way (indistinct conversation with devotees). Find out this verse, brahmacārī gurukule . I think that's in Seven, Two. Seven, One or Seven, Two. Sixteenth Chapter, first verse, I think. It's the first verse, brahmacārī gurukule. One man came to the temple, he heard that his daughter had participated in one of our fire sacrifices, and he was afraid that . . . Fire sacrifices? When we have initiations we have a fire sacrifice. He was afraid that she had been sacrificed. (laughter) "Nārada Muni said, A student should practice completely controlling his senses. He should be submissive and should have an attitude of firm friendship for the spiritual master. With a great vow, the brahmacārī should live in the gurukula , only for the benefit of the guru ." Next. "At both junctions of day, namely, in the early morning and in the evening, he should be fully absorbed in thoughts of the spiritual master, fire, the sun god and Lord Viṣṇu, and by chanting the Gāyatrī mantra he should worship them." Go on reading. "Being called by the spiritual master, the student should study the Vedic mantras regularly. Every day, before beginning his studies and at the end of his studies, the disciple should respectfully offer obeisances unto the spiritual master." "Carrying pure kuṣa grass in his hand, the brahmacārī should dress regularly with a belt of straw and with deerskin garments. He should wear matted hair, carry a rod and waterpot, and be decorated with a sacred thread, as recommended in the śāstras ." "The brahmacārī should go out morning and evening to collect alms, and he should offer all that he collects to the spiritual master. He should eat only if ordered to take food by the spiritual master; otherwise, if the spiritual master does not give this order, he may sometimes have to fast." "A brahmacārī should be quite well behaved and gentle and should not eat or collect more than necessary. He must always be active and expert, fully believing in the instructions of the spiritual master and the sastra . Fully controlling his senses, he should associate only as much as necessary with women or those controlled by women." "A brahmacārī , or one who has not accepted the grhastha āśrama , or family life, must rigidly avoid talking with women or about women, for the senses are so powerful that they may agitate even the mind of a sannyāsī , a member of the renounced order of life." "If the wife of the spiritual master is young, a young brahmacārī should not allow her to care for his hair, massage his body with oil, or bathe him with affection like a mother." "Woman is compared to fire, and man is compared to a butter pot. Therefore a man should avoid associating even with his own daughter in a secluded place. Similarly, he should also avoid association with other women. One should associate with women only for important business and not otherwise." *"As long as a living entity is not completely self*-realized—as long as he is not independent of the misconception of identifying with his body, which is nothing but a reflection of the original body and senses—he cannot be relieved of the conception of duality, which is epitomized by the duality between a man and woman. Thus there is every chance that he will fall down because his intelligence is bewildered." "All the rules and regulations apply equally to the householder and the sannyāsī , the member of the renounced order of life. The grhastha , however, is given permission by the spiritual master to indulge in sex during the period favorable for procreation." " Brahmacārīs or grhasthas who have taken the vow of celibacy as described above should not indulge in the following: applying powder or ointment to the eyes, massaging the head with oil, massaging the body with the hands, seeing a woman or painting a woman's picture, eating meat, drinking wine, decorating the body with flower garlands, smearing scented ointment on the body, or decorating the body with ornaments. These they should give up." *"According to the rules and regulations mentioned above, one who is twice*-born, namely a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya or vaiśya , should reside in the gurukula under the care of the spiritual master. There he should study and learn all the Vedic literatures along with their supplements and the Upaniṣads , according to his ability and power to study. If possible, the student or disciple should reward the spiritual master with the remuneration the spiritual master requests, and then, following the master's order, the disciple should leave and accept one of the other āśramas , namely the gṛhastha āśrama, vānaprastha āśrama or sannyāsa āśrama, as he desires." So this is my copy? Yes. You can give. This is Prabhupāda's latest book just came out. Hare Kṛṣṇa. What was it he was saying? I thought you were going to read out of here something about Kṛṣ-ṇa , the two . . . This was about the brahmacārī in the gurukula , in the school, what a young child should learn to practice. Yes. But I thought you were saying something about the sound of the two sounds of Kṛṣ and ṇa . *Ah, kṛṣṇeti varṇa*-dvayī (CC Antya 1.99). Ah, yes. "I wish I had ten thousand ears to hear the sweet sound of Kṛṣṇa, and ten thousand tongues to say it." So this isn't . . . I didn't get this one? Not yet, no. That's latest. It just came out. Seventh Canto, Part Three. They bring the first two copies to Śrīla Prabhupāda wherever he is. So this we got in New York just before we left. It's right off the press. Look at the pictures in the . . . These pictures are made by our boys. Yes, beautiful. They are learning more and more. This one is very good because it explains the breakdown of the social positions. Hmm? The varṇāśrama system. It's very good. *This instruction of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam was never given before in the Western countries. This is the first time. Yes. Therefore they're appreciating. We are selling our book daily sixty thousand dollars. Really? Yes. All over the world. Śrīla Prabhupāda, you're going to outdo Shakespeare soon. You'll have written more English words than William Shakespeare. (Prabhupāda laughs) Maybe you already have. *I don't think Shakespeare's brought out fifty*-six books. The Encyclopaedia Britannica wrote to us asking for . . . They have said . . . These books are such a lot of work. I don't know how he did it all. While everyone else sleeps, Prabhupāda's . . . Yes. At night I don't sleep. Not that because I am nowadays sick. But generally I don't sleep. Utmost two hours. Utmost. I think it's a long time since you've taken any rest at night. I take little rest during daytime. So on the whole, three to four hours. But actually I do not like to sleep. No, it's a waste of time. I think it is, when I go to sleep, I think that now I'm going to waste my time. I actually think like that. What's the word for . . . the call it the little . . . little death. Sleep is the little death. The śāstra also, Prahlāda Mahārāja describe the sleeping is waste of time. (aside) You find out that verse. It's in Seven, Two? Seventh Canto. He's estimating you have got hundred years age, utmost. Out of that, fifty years lost, sleep. And then twenty years playing as child, a boy. And in old age, another . . . "Every human being has a maximum duration of life of one hundred years, but for one who cannot control his senses, half of those years are completely lost because at night he sleeps twelve hours, being covered by ignorance. Therefore such a person has a lifetime of only fifty years." Fifty years immediately minus. Then out of the fifty years? "In the tender age of childhood, when everyone is bewildered, one passes ten years. Similarly, in boyhood, engaged in sporting and playing, one passes another ten years. In this way, twenty years are wasted. Similarly, in old age, when one is an invalid, unable to perform even material activities, one passes another twenty years wastefully." "One whose mind and senses are uncontrolled becomes increasingly attached to family life because of insatiable lusty desires and very strong illusion. In such a madman's life the remaining years are also wasted, because even during those years he cannot engage himself in devotional service." So hundred years finished. (laughs) Fifty years, twenty years, twenty years and ten years. Which volume is that? This is the one before that one. Part Two. Yes. This is Prahlāda Mahārāja's instructions. You can give that volume also. Did you . . . do you . . . I'm not too sure which ones I've got up to. He's got up to . . . you've got about two more coming before that. I'll give them to you before you go, to make sure. *Kṛṣṇa varṇa*-dvayī , you have got that? *I found that verse. Actually, Rañcor found it. Tuṇḍe tāṇḍavinī ratim vitanute tuṇḍāvalī*-ladbhaye. Yes. Pradyumna? You just note down this verse and give him. And the translation is "I do not know how much nectar the two syllables kṛṣ-ṇa have produced. When the holy name of Kṛṣṇa is chanted, it appears to dance within the mouth. We then desire many, many mouths. When that name enters the holes of the ears, we desire many millions of ears. And when the holy name dances in the courtyard of the heart, it conquers the activities of the mind, and therefore all the senses become inert." That was Rupa Gosvāmī. That is very nice poetry. Read it again. Tuṇḍe tāṇḍavinī . . . The English? I don't chant very well. Harikeśa Mahārāja chants nicely. Yes, you first of all recite. Very nice. (background talking) One thing, you can record and give him. I'll make a copy of this tape and give it to him. Yes. No, you should recite very properly, and then it will recorded. Then it will be right. This is Sanskrit. That's Sanskrit? It's written in Bengali characters. I see. In India, all different states they have got different alphabets, but the Sanskrit is the same. There is no change in Sanskrit. India's culture, all the provinces, they talk a little . . . (indistinct) . . . if you chant this mantra according to the Sanskrit tune, oh, your admirers will take it very nicely. (laughter) And that will be a great benefit to the mass of people. I don't know if they'd like it. Yes. They'll like. (laughs) They don't understand. Already they don't understand such a lot. Even if you say it in English. Even when you say things to them in English, they don't understand. That word Kṛṣṇa, if they hear, that will be sufficient. (indistinct comments with devotees) We were in Vṛndāvana, somebody, we were singing in the morning, singing this " Jaya Kṛṣṇa." Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. And he asked, this person said to me, "You should make it into a song in English." So I wrote English verses, and in each chorus it has " jaya kṛṣṇa, jaya kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa, jaya kṛṣṇa, jaya śrī kṛṣṇa; jaya rādhe, jaya rādhe, rādhe, jaya rādhe, jaya śrī rādhe ." I don't know, did you . . . if you heard that song. It was on that "Extra Texture"—you know that one? "He who . . ." I wrote the English words. "He whose eyes have seen what our lives have been, and who we really are—it is He, jaya śrī kṛṣṇa. " And then it has a chorus. "He whose sweetness flows to any one of those that cares to look His way, see His smile, jaya śrī rādhe, " then the chorus again. This is on George's new record. No, it was last year. And "He who is complete, three worlds at His feet, cause of every star, it is He, jaya Śrī Kṛṣṇa ." It's a nice song. But I took the old, the tune that we sang in Vṛndāvana, and just made slightly different, you know, with chords, chord patterns. So in your next record, you can give this. (laughter) (break) . . . this little girl, he had a baby girl and was trying to think of a name, so I told him to call it Dhara, you know? 'Cause from Rādhā— rādhārādhārādhā —it becomes dhārā. So he called his girl that name. There's a story of Vālmīki. You know that story? Mārāmārāmārāmārāmārāmārā . Vālmīki was a murderer, or a dacoit, thief. So he was met by Nārada Muni, I think. Yes, Vālmīki. And he was advised by Nārada Muni to please chant the holy name of the Lord and give up this thievery. So he wouldn't. So instead Nārada Muni said: "You chant mārā ." Mārā means death. So he agreed. Mārāmārā—rāma. Later on, this Vālmīki he wrote the *Rāmāyaṇa* after having chanting rāma . . . mārā , he became purified. Transcendental trickery. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . Long live. (everyone leaves) (end) Conversation A -- July 26, 1976, London (Conversation with George Harrison) How are you feeling? *I have old man's disease, cough and cold, so coughing. But still, work is going on, and I shall complete eighty years this month. September, eighty*-one. So now, due to age, it is becoming little difficult. Yes. Anyway, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. So how are you? Quite good. Chanting is going on? Yes. Thank you. That is our life and soul. Gṛhe vā vanete thāke, 'hā gaurāṅga' bole ḍāke. Wherever you live, it doesn't matter—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is our only support. (aside) So bring food here. We should . . . have the lunch here? Yes. Bring. All the devotees are looking really good. Eh? The devotees are looking great. Strong. (laughs) Yes. Phalena paricīyate. By the result, one has to study. Yesterday, one devotee's father and mother came, Hari-śauri. She and his father were very pleased to see him healthy, bright. They hadn't seen him for six years. Six years, yes. So we are inviting everyone, "Come here. Such a nice house given by George. (laughs) You live here comfortably, eat nicely, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." We don't want any factory work. No. (laughs) Simply kartāla and mṛdaṅga . Still, people do not come. They'll prefer to go the factory, whole day work in the hell. (laughs) They prefer. I suppose some day the whole of the world will just be chanting in the country. That is not possible. But if some of the leading men, they take it seriously, then others will follow. Just like in our book, your signature is there, "Oh, George Harrison. Yes." They take it, without any consideration, *Kṛṣṇa Book* . Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ ( BG 3.21). If the leading man does something, then his followers also do. This is the way. So if some of the leading men of the world, they take this movement seriously, then people will be happy. There's no doubt about it. You have come alone, without any associate? Just on my own. That's all right. It took me a while to find it. They're always building new roads everywhere and change the whole countryside. So I got a little lost. You came here twice, right? Yes, I've been here three times. Where will you be in India when you go back to India? Most probably in Bombay. Bombay. Yes. You have been in my Bombay? I was going to go to Bombay. Yes, Bombay and Vṛndāvana when they were just building. I was going to go to Bombay . . . Yes. You have been in my Bombay? George Harrison : Yes, Bombay and Vṛndāvana when they were just building. Oh, Vṛndāvana, if you come there, stay for some time. Yes, well, ah, this December . . . We have got very nice houses, both in Bombay and Vṛndāvana. And Māyāpur also. Wherever you like. You will not be very uncomfortable. I was going to go to Bombay for a wedding. Some friends are getting married. When? December the fifth, I think. Very nice season in Bombay. Best time. You know, I think you met Lakshmi Shankar, this lady singer? Her daughter, who is also a singer, Viji, Viji Shri Shankar, and she's marrying a South Indian violin player, L. Shankar. He's also Shankar? Well, he's called L. Shankar. You know that South India they have a funny way around them. They have like a surname. He's just called L. Shankar. His brother is called L. Subhramanyam. Bring small tables to George. (indistinct comments about names) So you never know what the other name is. George says he wants to spend some time in Vṛndāvana. *I was only there for about thirty*-six hours last time. We have got now very good centers. Another gentleman, he's offering us a very good place at Mahābaleśvara. That's one of the famous hillier stations. A very nice climate. So you can come and stay there. We have got now many good centers. Yes. I'll come and see if you're in Bombay, because I'll be near where the temple is. Yes. Bombay is just like garden. Yes. As good as your place here. No. Not so big. It is seventeen acres, and Bombay is five. ( prasādam being served) So, just go on. Give him whatever you have got, give. But don't give much. When he wants something more . . . "Waste not, want not." Give more. That preparation, you can give more. (laughter) Is that cauliflower? No. That is called . . . (indistinct) . . . you can bring it, prasāda . I'll just wash my hands. You can wash here. The sink is there. Here is also water. So you can put the bowls outside, yes, so that there will be sufficient place. Our Indian system is like that. That's all right. You sit down. You also sit down. You get a towel? Yes, thanks. Give him. I see you've done new books. You've been so busy, this is, so many books. *Yes. There are already fifty*-four, and another at least thirty books I have to finish before my death. (laughs) That I am . . . (aside) Give him purī . Where is Ravi Shankar? He's in . . . I think he's in New York. He'll be here the first of August, and then I think he's . . . He has got his house there? In New York? No, just a house in Benares. Benares. He doesn't have anything. He just stays in hotels. I thought in Washington somebody told me that George Washing . . . George Harrison has got his house here. Yes, he had a little house here, but he . . . No, you have got your house in Washington? No. No. (referring to prasādam ) Now we can begin. Okay, Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Nimbu*-pāni ? Hare Kṛṣṇa. You give him two more samosās . He likes it. So now you can begin also. Yes. (background comments while prasādam served) All the boys and girls are so nicely qualified for Kṛṣṇa's service. They are looking better and better all the time. It's nice for me to see Gurudāsa. He's turning into a mountain. (laughter) His wife has also sannyāsī . . . (indistinct) . . . renounced. Have you seen her latest? No. *She has cut hair and white dress, living alone in the temple. Vairagya*-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam (CC Madhya 6.254). This bhakti-yoga means vairagya-vidyā , means detachment. That is the perfection of life. If we remain attached, that is conditional. Māyā has made so many things attractive so that we have to remain attached, and to come out of this attachment is called bhakti . (aside) So one man, you can sit down, you can eat. Pradyumna, you can eat. I've taken some milk before, so . . . Oh, you don't require. Now you can eat, go on. Prasāda prapti mātrena. Our Jayatīrtha Prabhu is good manager. Management, looking after. Yes, he's very good manager, experienced. Hmm? He's experienced manager. Not very good managing this place now. Well, it seems okay. Seems to be ticking over pretty good, peacefully. He was also managing Los Angeles. Yes. Now we have brought him here to see things nicely managed. It feels good, nice vibrations. Yes. One thing, Jayatīrtha, why don't you sprinkle this water in this ground? Well, we do sprinkle it. Just have an ordinary pumping, and then it will be green. There's a kind of a limit on the amount of water pressure you can get these days. Limit? It's been a drought in England. There's no . . . very little water. It is very dangerous. Everything is now yellow. It's greener here than most places around, but . . . Everything's so dry this year, lot of trees and things dying without water. *That will be the punishment for this age. It is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . There will be scarcity of rain, and there will be scarcity of food, and heavy taxation by government. And people will become mad on account of these three things. Anāvṛṣṭi, durbhikṣa, kara-pīḍitāḥ (SB 12.2.9). It's getting dryer in England each year. It's like . . . it's probably going to end up as a desert in another hundred years. They expect like that? Well, I don't know. I think the whole world's changing. Somebody said it's the pollution, leave such . . . there's so much of the oceans now with polluted and with oil on the top, there's not so much evaporation anymore. Not in the ocean. It is the sinful activities of the populace. That is real problem. They are all engaged in sinful activities. Especially this innocent animal killing. These are the all reactions. In New York they had one island of refuse floated in to shore. Give him more samosās . For years they were building up island of refuse, and it floated in, and now no one can go to the beaches. Samosā . Where is samosā ? There is only one more left? I'm okay, actually. There is sour cream. I've got plenty, thanks. Prasāda , we can eat up to the neck. (laughter) There is no harm. You'll never get indigestion. You have got some fruits? Yes. There's a very nice mango preparation there. Did you taste? Which one? The chilled mango. Looks like . . . (indistinct) Oh, this one. One German girl has prepared. We are introducing restaurant like this, and people are liking very much. We have got one restaurant in Hawaii, another restaurant we are organizing in Boston. That is being directly done by Alfred. You have met Alfred? Alfred Ford, the grandson of Henry Ford. No, I've never met him. *Oh. He is also very nice boy. Of course, younger than you. He's only twenty*-four years. What is your age now? *Thirty*-three. *Thirty*-three. That boy is also very nice young boy. Give Jayatīrtha? Huh? No? Do you feed everybody who comes Sunday? Hundreds. Sunday we have about five hundred to one thousand. Yes. So they must cook for days to feed all those people. No, day before, night before. Do they bring food as well? They bring grains or something like that, in bulk. *We had very gorgeous Ratha*-yātrā ceremony in New York last Sunday. Hmm? Sunday, eighteenth. A week ago yesterday. Last Sunday. Give . . . We fed about ten thousand that day. Cauliflower. Take little. I can't finish. (laughter) I'm trying to finish one so I can start on the next. I was sick also, lately. I had something, I went yellow. I had jaundice. Jaundice? Hmm. I don't know why. Just had food poisoning or something, and it affected my liver. Who cooks for you? Sometimes me, sometimes, ah . . . I don't know, I think we'd had some Chinese food. Oh, you should not take. But I was working as well, so I, you know, I think I was pretty tired. Better you cook simple food yourself and take it. The only thing I could eat was papaya. Papaya is very good, yes. (to prasādam servers) Give him, give him, give him. I still have . . . No, that is the different. Oh, all right. We are just attempting a big planetarium in Māyāpur. We have asked government to acquire land, 350 acres. That is negotiation are going on. We shall give a Vedic planetarium. Is that the one you were talking about? With all the . . . In the Fifth Canto. The planetarium will be 350 feet high and show the cosmology of the spiritual world and the material world. The construction will be like your Washington Capitol, like that. A big dome. Yes. Estimated eight crores of rupees. (pause) Is there any dahī preparation? There's only one. Oh, that's all right. Now, there is fruit. You . . . Very good. Fantastic. What would you like? Something of everything? Two pieces . . . Maybe just a little bit of, but now I'm not . . . thanks. That's fine. No, okay. Thanks, fine. That's enough, that's fine. That watermelon, you can give more. It is water. Now let me finish all of this. This is that mango preparation. Okay. It's coming. You like that preparation? Yes. We used to have this with milk at Rishikesh. Every day they'd leave outside of the door. It's good. (pause) Do you, Mukunda, do you break even with all the costs, running cost? Do you do okay with all this food and fruit and stuff? Oh, yes. More than even. We have about thirteen hundred Life Members in the Indian community. And then when they come on the weekends they bring food, they bring these hundred pound donations, put money in the box. At one time you just had the Godhead and incense. Yes, now it's all public support. We don't sell incense anymore. And the books we just sell for very little; we hardly make any money on them at all. Are you reading sometimes my books? Which one? Mainly Kṛṣṇa . That is the main book. (laughs) Mukunda gave me the new books, but there's so much in . . . ah, there's just so much to read. Philosophy. I don't know how anybody could have written it, it's difficult enough to read all that amount. Sometimes they are surprised how one man can write so many books, but it is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise is not possible. Humanly it is not possible. *That one series of books I brought you, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Oh, yes. Hari-śauri? There is no sweet melon. And every single word is written by hand, five hundred years ago. No sweet melon? (background comments about melon) You are in the same house? Hmm? Henley. Henley, yes. Very nice house. Hmm, very nice. I work from the house. I have a studio, recording studio in the house. So I don't have to go to London anymore. Oh, you have all arrangement there. That's very nice. How many acres? *It's about thirty*-five. Oh, very good area. Did you get that other land? Yes, only five hundred pounds. Really? Amazing. Five hundred pounds! Yes, for four acres. That's quite cheap. Yes, we were really surprised. But if it hadn't been for that, we'd have had no cow pasture. Cows are out there. We have got one cow—many cows in Philadelphia—the milk bags, she gives hundred and two pounds daily. Of milk? Who owns this? Who milks the cows? Some of the devotees. We have got tanks for storing milk. Tanks. Yes? *Yes. All up*-to-date refrigerator and everything. That extra milk they are selling. Similarly, in New Vrindavan we are getting one thousand pounds milk daily. One thousand pounds. That's our place in Virginia. How many cows? Must be hundreds of them. But the Philadelphia is more organized. Yes. Through the nozzles, milk carrying, always hot water is washing it. There's much better facility in that Pennsylvania place. New Vrindavan's kind of a . . . they built up from scratch by themselves. Rustic. Yes, rustic is the word. (laughter) Pennsylvania, they bought this fabulous farm all made up. Pradyumna, give him little, this one here. Oh, no, no. Please, no more. I'm really full. I won't have to eat for a few days. (laughter) Sweets. Very well. Sweet will help you digest. Don't give three—at least four. I won't be able to eat much more. Three is given to the enemy. According to our Indian system, if you give somebody three, that means he is enemy. Oh, really? I always liked the number three. (laughs) You must give at least four. I like three, five, seven, nine. Those numbers. Tri-śatru What are the three enemies? Kāma, krodha . . . Lobha . Lust, anger, greed. Three enemies Three enemies—lusty desire, anger and greediness. Yes. But there's a lot of nice threes. Yes. Just like Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. Three. Three worlds: Svarga, Martya, Pātāla. Trinity. These are nice things. *Tri*-guṇa. *Tri*-guṇa , yes. The three modes, they're not so nice. Well, they're all necessary. Yes. I met, I think, one of your master's other devotees. I forget his name. Gosvāmī, big, in Vṛndāvana. Big, tall, with a staff, bald hair. Said you knew his name? Puruṣottama? Puruṣottama? Yes. In Vṛndāvana. He's not a sannyāsī . Pardon? He's not sannyāsī . Oh, well, the one I met had a staff. Maybe it was a different one. Mādhava Mahārāja maybe. Maybe Mādhava Mahārāja. He's big. He's my Godbrother. Yes, but he didn't talk English. But all the people I was with said he spoke very good Sanskrit, had a good understanding of Sanskrit. But I couldn't understand anything that he . . . you know . . . I just watched him. I think Puruṣottama Gosāi. He's talking of Puruṣottama. Gosāi. He's blackish? No. Not fair complexion. Puruṣottama. I think he was fair, but he was very tall, very big, and you know, like this, huge size. Well, he had a place where I stayed the night. That's his place, Puruṣottama Gosāi. He's not a sannyāsī . He's not sannyāsī , he is householder. He's married man. Yes, he had . . . his son lived there. Yes. But maybe he's taken, I don't know. I thought he had a daṇḍa , one of those staffs. I saw the little temple in the garden, had the Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, where they stay in bed. It's like a bed like this. You know the one? Nidhuvana Mandir. Nidhuvana. Nidhuvana Mandir. I saw that, where He's been out all night so He doesn't get up until ten o'clock in the morning. You have not seen our temple since it is inaugurated? No. No. This time you come. Many thousand people come to see Deity. I saw the photograph, looks really nice. It's big. Now they say it's the most beautiful modern temple in Vṛndāvana. You have seen our . . . there is any film of the temple? No, but there's photographs. We have a nice photograph in the reception room downstairs. Actually it was half built. Yes. Even the building you went into, there's more, up, the roof. That courtyard is very beautiful. There is a tāmala tree. That is a very valuable tree. The Bisanchand Seth asked me to cut. Yes, I remember. What a nonsense, such a . . . I remember that. He has no idea. Now, on account of that tree, it looks so beautiful. Yes. It's very wonderful. The whole tree has flourished since the temple began. We planned the whole temple around that tree. The whole plans. It's a big old tree? Tree's just in the courtyard of the temple, so we left it there. Tāmala tree is the same color as Kṛṣṇa, śyāma . Like a fresh rain cloud color. So when Rādhārāṇī sees the tree, She thinks of Kṛṣṇa. So when we see the tree we think of Kṛṣṇa. And Śrīla Prabhupāda sits underneath the tree and watches. Rādhārāṇī in separation was embracing that tree, tāmala tree. And they say that in Vṛndāvana, only there are four tāmala trees left. Yes, they've said four or six. Very few. Is this tree still living? Yes, it's alive. (finishes prasādam ) My compliments to the chef. (laughter) What is this water? Lemonade. Is there any more? I just took it out. I can get some. Bring little. I'll wash my hands. (indistinct conversation) So I am very much pleased that you take so much trouble to come here. It's my pleasure. (to Hari-śauri) Yes, give me little for drinking. You want little more? Are you ever going to stop traveling? That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. I don't want, personally, but if Kṛṣṇa wants, that is everything. We have got now hundred and two centers, different parts of the world. Still six more to go. Yes. (laughter) We have got a very nice house in Detroit. If you sometimes go there you'll see. Whereabouts? Detroit. Ah, Detroit. They need one there. Crazy place. Heavy place. That house was constructed fifty years ago at the cost of six million dollar, and we have got it very cheap. Three hundred thousand dollars. Was it a big house? A very big mansion on the riverside. Colonial house? Not as big—four acres of land—but the building is very costly. One room will cost now three hundred thousand dollars. So nicely made. They estimated it would cost about fifteen million to build such a house now. Yes, they probably wouldn't even bother or be able to, at least. Is it an old house? Fifty years old. It's very solid though, very good condition as well. And on the house on bottom, there is river. Not directly, but an offshoot of river. People come, rowing. A very nice situation. And because it is black quarter, nobody was purchasing. So I said that "For us, what is black and white? Purchase it." So we got very cheap. At that time I paid them hundred and fifty thousand, and . . . (indistinct) . . . Elizabeth. We purchased. Did they have a temple in Hamburg? In Hamburg. I was there once, but they just had a little tiny house, and they were trying to get another. Hamburg, I think closed? They have a place in Frankfurt, where the devotees are . . . just outside of Frankfurt. So they haven't got a place in Hamburg. No, it's a heavy city. I was there one year when they were having fights. It's . . . Rockers. It's a heavy place. Rockers. It is full of gangs. And we have got another palace . . . what is that village? South of Paris? That one? No, France. Yes, south of Paris. It's near a place called Valencay. Very nice place. French chateau. It's on about 250 acres. Really? Huge fields, beautiful place. I'll show you a picture of it. Yes. So that was the goal, isn't it? One hundred and eight temples. Should be able to do it this year, I think. Eh? We should have a hundred and eight this year, I think. Centers. One hundred and eight centers. Oh. Temples and farms. But we want worker. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is giving us so many centers. Yes. In India I can get so many places, but how to manage? Simply taking from persons, and if I cannot manage nicely, that does not look well. Therefore I say first of all get men, then take donation, there is no harm. How many devotees were living here? There's about a hundred, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yes, then it is all right. And if there was no devotees, ten devotees, then how could we manage? We have about fifteen devotees that work full time on the grounds. So what is the difficulty sprinkling water that quarter? It is costly? We'll try to sprinkle more, but there's a lack of water pressure. No, pressure, by pump. That's what we have. We had a little Honda pump, but you had to start it off. It's a gasoline engine, I think. And put one pipe into the lake and just pump out of the lake, and then you have a sprinkler on the other side. Makes a noise, though, that's the only thing. Makes a noise and gives off an exhaust. A pump for, say, one hour, two hour. You could use the water out of the lake, then nobody could really complain about that. That's how we'd have to do it, I think. That probably wouldn't be enough . . . it wouldn't take the level down too much. How do you fill that up? That's a natural watershed. This is the lowest place in the area in about four miles every direction. So we have all those underground water tables feeding it. If there is rain then there is no scarcity of water. The water comes here. Yes. But how, when you drain it, then how did you stop it from filling up? Well, it did fill up in the winter quite a bit, but then in the summer it went back down. It's filled up now—we had to use city water to get it started. But as soon as it rains it goes up about this far. It's evaporated about six inches since. You don't have a well in your place? No, just, well, that bore pond. Originally the lakes all were filled just like this as well as flooding the drains, and when it rained off the house everything would go. And we have a big storage tank, and then there's ballcocks, and underneath that big bank of rhododendrons was like a room built there, which was a storage tank. Then any other water he must have used just from the mains. But these days, you know, they have meters on the mains, so you have to pay for every gallon. What about getting those water diviners to come and find water? Well, you can find it I think anywhere if you just bore a hole. So what we did was just bore at the end of the lake. But you have to go down to the depth of the riverbed, and there there's not much water because the rain. It's all chalk and limestone, so the rain . . . that's the problem with watering in the summer, if you put water . . . From your house the river is near? Yes. Thames? Yes. But then the Thames is here, and we're up on the hill, so we bored a hole right down to the three hundred feet, I think, three hundred and fifty feet, to the level of the river, and then a pump, we can pump that. But when it does rain or if you do water the ground, it's all so chalky that it runs right through it. So it's hard to keep a lot of moisture in the water. But also at the same time all the rain water runs through. When it hits the rock level of the riverbed, there must be tons of water down there. We can pump out of there all day long for months on end, and nothing seems to dry up. Fantastic. You could even do it by hand if you were out of electricity. I mean the hole is . . . the bore hole is actually only about this wide. You can have a little bucket. (laughter) You have to apply for permission, actually, to dig a well, but around here at least you have to get permission. You have to. We did too. You have to put your name on a list, on a public notice in the local papers, and if somebody wants to complain about it, then they have a chance to. And once it's been up there for a few days or a week or something, and if nobody's made any formal complaint for any reason, like maybe they've got one, a bore hole, and you may be tampering there, so then you just go ahead. You know it's all approved, and then your name goes on the list someplace in the county surveyor's office. So you do have to go through a, you know, a couple of months of waiting. Just to, say, bore a hole to replenish, Costs a lot of money for water around here. And you have to just pay for the cost of the bore hole and the pump, to lay out electricity to where the pump is. The pump is, you know, just in the ground. You can't even see it. You know, by that weeping willow tree? So if you want to take little rest, we can arrange for that. Resting. Rest? Yes, for you. No, no. I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you want to rest. No. You take a rest. *I am taking rest now these twenty*-four hours. Now I have no other business than to take rest. (laughter) Always resting at the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. That is real rest. *The Mukunda*-māla-stotra . . . there was a big emperor . . . (indistinct) . . . Kulaśekhara, Emperor Kulaśekhara, he was a great devotee. So he wrote some poetry. Formerly, kings were so advanced, rajarṣi . They are king, at the same time, saintly persons. In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2): this science of Bhagavad-gītā was learned by the rājarṣis . People were happy therefore. The head, or the executive, they were all saintly persons. So this Kulaśekhara, he writes in the beginning of his poetry, "Kṛṣṇa, O Kṛṣṇa . . ." Kṛṣṇa tvādīya-pada-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam . The paṅkaja means lotus flower. So Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet is just like lotus flower. The lotus flower has stem down, and the swans, they take pleasure to go down the water and entangled by the stem. Have you seen their pleasure? Yes. That is their great sporting, to be entangled by the stem and come out, in this way, go deep. This is their sporting. *So this Kulaśekhara is praying, "My Lord Kṛṣṇa, let my swan of mind be entangled with the stem of Your lotus feet." Kṛṣṇa tvādīya*-pada-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam adyaiva : "immediately"— viśatu —"let enter." Who? Adyaiva viśatu me , "my," mānasa-rāja-haṁsaḥ , "my mind, which is just like a swan." So why adyaiva , immediately? He says that prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye, "At the time of death," prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye kapha-vāta-pittaiḥ , "when the physical condition of the body will be in disorder," kapha, pitta, vayu will be not in order . . . prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye kapha-vāta-pittaiḥ kaṇṭhāvarodha , "At that time I shall not be able to speak. I'll ahn, ahn, but that's all. So I may not be able to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Better I am now in good health, so let my mind be entangled in the stem of Your lotus feet." Very nice poetry. *"At that time I may be not able to utter 'Kṛṣṇa' or think of You, and now I am healthy, let me finish this business." That means "Let me die immediately. Now I'm healthy, I'm quite fit." This is the ideal. Ante nārāyaṇa*-smṛtiḥ (SB 2.1.6). At the time of death, if one remembers Kṛṣṇa, then his life is successful. Immediately he goes to Kṛṣṇa. Just like Ajāmila. He chanted "Nārāyaṇa," and immediately his path to Vaikuṇṭha become clear. So this practice means, whatever we practice all through life, there is chance of coming that remembrance at the time of death, and then it is successful, life is success. If at the time of death one can remember Kṛṣṇa, then his whole life is successful. Our one student, Kārtikeya, his mother was very fortunate. So his mother had nothing to do with this Society, but the boy was attached, and she heard several times "Kṛṣṇa," that this boy is attached to Kṛṣṇa. At the time of her death, she asked her son, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" and died. Just see how fortunate she is. She simply uttered this word, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" then she died. Very fortunate. So on account of her son she got salvation. Yes. Otherwise, Kārtikeya told me that he went to see his mother, and the mother was going to ball dance, and the mother did not receive him well. "All right, you sit down. I'll come again." She was such lady. But by Kṛṣṇa's grace, at the time of death, she inquired her son, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" That's . . . (indistinct) . . . very fortunate. When my mother died I had to send my sister and father out of the room, because they were getting emotional, and I just chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa. She chanted. I did. Oh, very nice. So she could hear? I don't know, I don't know. She was in like a coma or something. It was the only thing I could think of. When it happened? In 1970. It was the only thing I could think of that may be of value, you know. Anyway, if she has heard Hare Kṛṣṇa, she'll get benefitted. Either she chants or somebody chanting, if she hears, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam, both the same thing. Little chance. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). So let us practice in such a way that at the time of death we may remember. That is success. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). So you are reading Kṛṣṇa repeatedly? *Kṛṣṇa Book* you are reading repeatedly? Well, you know, I read it every so often. I always take the *Gītā* with me wherever I go. I mean that's the one I just keep all the time. But you know, I'll just sometimes read a little of something, a little bit of something else. I've never been a great reader. (laughs) No, you have got chance here to think soberly. But on account of your chanting "Kṛṣṇa," so many people are chanting. I don't think it's on my account. No, they say: "George chants Hare Kṛṣṇa." They say. Do they not? Yes. And you have got many thousand followers. Well It's nice, but I think we all . . . *Anyway, you go on chanting. That will influence. There is a poetry written by, I think in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , where the Rupa Gosvāmī is wondering, "I do not know what sweetness there in these two words, Kṛṣ-ṇa ." The verse starts with priyo , "dear." *Varna*-dvayī. You remember this verse? No, jane . "What kind of nectar it is there in these two words, Kṛṣ-ṇa ?" You have seen Deity today? No, it was closed. It was closed. It's open again now. When it is open? It's open now. The ārati is going on, the afternoon ārati . Oh. Sometimes you can come and stay here, see the ārati , at least one day, whole program, how they are doing. What is the program whole day? *It starts at four*-fifteen, here. Morning. *Yes, with the ārati , and then we worship Tulasī*-devī, chant japa and then have class, and then prasādam , eight-fifteen. Then during the day we all work, and in the evening again, seven o'clock, everyone comes together for the ārati , class. How is that school in Texas, you know, with all the children? That's gurukula . They have about six schools now. One's at this place in France, they have a school there, this farm. And Dallas, and Los Angeles, Pennsylvania, Māyāpur. Vṛndāvana gurukula also was started. There's all kinds of strange things written in those newspapers, Dallas, strange things. Particularly about the little children's school. It's because they don't bother to find out before they write things. Just like they said that the children sleep in the basement. That's because it was in the hot summer. Everyone goes to the basement in the summer in Dallas. The kids don't feel any difficulty at all sleeping on the floor. Children are naturally austere. It's just after you get to a certain age the conditioning affects you. They said they live without furniture. (laughter) They're prejudiced about those things. They have to eat with their hands. (laughter) You have got the last copy of Seventh Canto? Seven, Three? Yes. There's some books that came out since I brought those last books. There's also somebody, I think it was a guy who was trying to get his wife back or something. (laughs) I know it was in California . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was saying, "They've stolen my wife." These stories kill me. I mean, it's so funny because the way (indistinct conversation with devotees). Find out this verse, brahmacārī gurukule . I think that's in Seven, Two. Seven, One or Seven, Two. Sixteenth Chapter, first verse, I think. It's the first verse, brahmacārī gurukule. One man came to the temple, he heard that his daughter had participated in one of our fire sacrifices, and he was afraid that . . . Fire sacrifices? When we have initiations we have a fire sacrifice. He was afraid that she had been sacrificed. (laughter) "Nārada Muni said, A student should practice completely controlling his senses. He should be submissive and should have an attitude of firm friendship for the spiritual master. With a great vow, the brahmacārī should live in the gurukula , only for the benefit of the guru ." Next. "At both junctions of day, namely, in the early morning and in the evening, he should be fully absorbed in thoughts of the spiritual master, fire, the sun god and Lord Viṣṇu, and by chanting the Gāyatrī mantra he should worship them." Go on reading. "Being called by the spiritual master, the student should study the Vedic mantras regularly. Every day, before beginning his studies and at the end of his studies, the disciple should respectfully offer obeisances unto the spiritual master." "Carrying pure kuṣa grass in his hand, the brahmacārī should dress regularly with a belt of straw and with deerskin garments. He should wear matted hair, carry a rod and waterpot, and be decorated with a sacred thread, as recommended in the śāstras ." "The brahmacārī should go out morning and evening to collect alms, and he should offer all that he collects to the spiritual master. He should eat only if ordered to take food by the spiritual master; otherwise, if the spiritual master does not give this order, he may sometimes have to fast." "A brahmacārī should be quite well behaved and gentle and should not eat or collect more than necessary. He must always be active and expert, fully believing in the instructions of the spiritual master and the sastra . Fully controlling his senses, he should associate only as much as necessary with women or those controlled by women." "A brahmacārī , or one who has not accepted the grhastha āśrama , or family life, must rigidly avoid talking with women or about women, for the senses are so powerful that they may agitate even the mind of a sannyāsī , a member of the renounced order of life." "If the wife of the spiritual master is young, a young brahmacārī should not allow her to care for his hair, massage his body with oil, or bathe him with affection like a mother." "Woman is compared to fire, and man is compared to a butter pot. Therefore a man should avoid associating even with his own daughter in a secluded place. Similarly, he should also avoid association with other women. One should associate with women only for important business and not otherwise." *"As long as a living entity is not completely self*-realized—as long as he is not independent of the misconception of identifying with his body, which is nothing but a reflection of the original body and senses—he cannot be relieved of the conception of duality, which is epitomized by the duality between a man and woman. Thus there is every chance that he will fall down because his intelligence is bewildered." "All the rules and regulations apply equally to the householder and the sannyāsī , the member of the renounced order of life. The grhastha , however, is given permission by the spiritual master to indulge in sex during the period favorable for procreation." " Brahmacārīs or grhasthas who have taken the vow of celibacy as described above should not indulge in the following: applying powder or ointment to the eyes, massaging the head with oil, massaging the body with the hands, seeing a woman or painting a woman's picture, eating meat, drinking wine, decorating the body with flower garlands, smearing scented ointment on the body, or decorating the body with ornaments. These they should give up." *"According to the rules and regulations mentioned above, one who is twice*-born, namely a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya or vaiśya , should reside in the gurukula under the care of the spiritual master. There he should study and learn all the Vedic literatures along with their supplements and the Upaniṣads , according to his ability and power to study. If possible, the student or disciple should reward the spiritual master with the remuneration the spiritual master requests, and then, following the master's order, the disciple should leave and accept one of the other āśramas , namely the gṛhastha āśrama, vānaprastha āśrama or sannyāsa āśrama, as he desires." So this is my copy? Yes. You can give. This is Prabhupāda's latest book just came out. Hare Kṛṣṇa. What was it he was saying? I thought you were going to read out of here something about Kṛṣ-ṇa , the two . . . This was about the brahmacārī in the gurukula , in the school, what a young child should learn to practice. Yes. But I thought you were saying something about the sound of the two sounds of Kṛṣ and ṇa . *Ah, kṛṣṇeti varṇa*-dvayī (CC Antya 1.99). Ah, yes. "I wish I had ten thousand ears to hear the sweet sound of Kṛṣṇa, and ten thousand tongues to say it." So this isn't . . . I didn't get this one? Not yet, no. That's latest. It just came out. Seventh Canto, Part Three. They bring the first two copies to Śrīla Prabhupāda wherever he is. So this we got in New York just before we left. It's right off the press. Look at the pictures in the . . . These pictures are made by our boys. Yes, beautiful. They are learning more and more. This one is very good because it explains the breakdown of the social positions. Hmm? The varṇāśrama system. It's very good. *This instruction of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam was never given before in the Western countries. This is the first time. Yes. Therefore they're appreciating. We are selling our book daily sixty thousand dollars. Really? Yes. All over the world. Śrīla Prabhupāda, you're going to outdo Shakespeare soon. You'll have written more English words than William Shakespeare. (Prabhupāda laughs) Maybe you already have. *I don't think Shakespeare's brought out fifty*-six books. The Encyclopaedia Britannica wrote to us asking for . . . They have said . . . These books are such a lot of work. I don't know how he did it all. While everyone else sleeps, Prabhupāda's . . . Yes. At night I don't sleep. Not that because I am nowadays sick. But generally I don't sleep. Utmost two hours. Utmost. I think it's a long time since you've taken any rest at night. I take little rest during daytime. So on the whole, three to four hours. But actually I do not like to sleep. No, it's a waste of time. I think it is, when I go to sleep, I think that now I'm going to waste my time. I actually think like that. What's the word for . . . the call it the little . . . little death. Sleep is the little death. The śāstra also, Prahlāda Mahārāja describe the sleeping is waste of time. (aside) You find out that verse. It's in Seven, Two? Seventh Canto. He's estimating you have got hundred years age, utmost. Out of that, fifty years lost, sleep. And then twenty years playing as child, a boy. And in old age, another . . . "Every human being has a maximum duration of life of one hundred years, but for one who cannot control his senses, half of those years are completely lost because at night he sleeps twelve hours, being covered by ignorance. Therefore such a person has a lifetime of only fifty years." Fifty years immediately minus. Then out of the fifty years? "In the tender age of childhood, when everyone is bewildered, one passes ten years. Similarly, in boyhood, engaged in sporting and playing, one passes another ten years. In this way, twenty years are wasted. Similarly, in old age, when one is an invalid, unable to perform even material activities, one passes another twenty years wastefully." "One whose mind and senses are uncontrolled becomes increasingly attached to family life because of insatiable lusty desires and very strong illusion. In such a madman's life the remaining years are also wasted, because even during those years he cannot engage himself in devotional service." So hundred years finished. (laughs) Fifty years, twenty years, twenty years and ten years. Which volume is that? This is the one before that one. Part Two. Yes. This is Prahlāda Mahārāja's instructions. You can give that volume also. Did you . . . do you . . . I'm not too sure which ones I've got up to. He's got up to . . . you've got about two more coming before that. I'll give them to you before you go, to make sure. *Kṛṣṇa varṇa*-dvayī , you have got that? *I found that verse. Actually, Rañcor found it. Tuṇḍe tāṇḍavinī ratim vitanute tuṇḍāvalī*-ladbhaye. Yes. Pradyumna? You just note down this verse and give him. And the translation is "I do not know how much nectar the two syllables kṛṣ-ṇa have produced. When the holy name of Kṛṣṇa is chanted, it appears to dance within the mouth. We then desire many, many mouths. When that name enters the holes of the ears, we desire many millions of ears. And when the holy name dances in the courtyard of the heart, it conquers the activities of the mind, and therefore all the senses become inert." That was Rupa Gosvāmī. That is very nice poetry. Read it again. Tuṇḍe tāṇḍavinī . . . The English? I don't chant very well. Harikeśa Mahārāja chants nicely. Yes, you first of all recite. Very nice. (background talking) One thing, you can record and give him. I'll make a copy of this tape and give it to him. Yes. No, you should recite very properly, and then it will recorded. Then it will be right. This is Sanskrit. That's Sanskrit? It's written in Bengali characters. I see. In India, all different states they have got different alphabets, but the Sanskrit is the same. There is no change in Sanskrit. India's culture, all the provinces, they talk a little . . . (indistinct) . . . if you chant this mantra according to the Sanskrit tune, oh, your admirers will take it very nicely. (laughter) And that will be a great benefit to the mass of people. I don't know if they'd like it. Yes. They'll like. (laughs) They don't understand. Already they don't understand such a lot. Even if you say it in English. Even when you say things to them in English, they don't understand. That word Kṛṣṇa, if they hear, that will be sufficient. (indistinct comments with devotees) We were in Vṛndāvana, somebody, we were singing in the morning, singing this " Jaya Kṛṣṇa." Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. And he asked, this person said to me, "You should make it into a song in English." So I wrote English verses, and in each chorus it has " jaya kṛṣṇa, jaya kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa, jaya kṛṣṇa, jaya śrī kṛṣṇa; jaya rādhe, jaya rādhe, rādhe, jaya rādhe, jaya śrī rādhe ." I don't know, did you . . . if you heard that song. It was on that "Extra Texture"—you know that one? "He who . . ." I wrote the English words. "He whose eyes have seen what our lives have been, and who we really are—it is He, jaya śrī kṛṣṇa. " And then it has a chorus. "He whose sweetness flows to any one of those that cares to look His way, see His smile, jaya śrī rādhe, " then the chorus again. This is on George's new record. No, it was last year. And "He who is complete, three worlds at His feet, cause of every star, it is He, jaya Śrī Kṛṣṇa ." It's a nice song. But I took the old, the tune that we sang in Vṛndāvana, and just made slightly different, you know, with chords, chord patterns. So in your next record, you can give this. (laughter) (break) . . . this little girl, he had a baby girl and was trying to think of a name, so I told him to call it Dhara, you know? 'Cause from Rādhā— rādhārādhārādhā —it becomes dhārā. So he called his girl that name. There's a story of Vālmīki. You know that story? Mārāmārāmārāmārāmārāmārā . Vālmīki was a murderer, or a dacoit, thief. So he was met by Nārada Muni, I think. Yes, Vālmīki. And he was advised by Nārada Muni to please chant the holy name of the Lord and give up this thievery. So he wouldn't. So instead Nārada Muni said: "You chant mārā ." Mārā means death. So he agreed. Mārāmārā—rāma. Later on, this Vālmīki he wrote the *Rāmāyaṇa* after having chanting rāma . . . mārā , he became purified. Transcendental trickery. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . Long live. (everyone leaves) (end) Conversation -- July 27, 1976, London He is so monied man. He cannot get nice food even, the primary necessities. And getting jaundice. He had jaundice? Yes, he just recovered from jaundice. Thinks he was poisoned by something he ate. The main reason why he doesn't . . . he got jaundice because, he admitted this that he had Ravi Shankar's brother cooking for him. Eh? He had one Kumar Shankar, the brother of Ravi Shankar, is cooking for him. So this man is a demon; therefore he is becoming sick. *Yes, they are all drunkards, all third*-class men, fourth-class men, low-class men. In India, this naṭas , they are third class, fourth class. Naṭas means the artist—singer, dancers. They are meant for the fourth-class, fifth-class men. It was never taken by the . . . they are called, and they will expertly sing, dance, in some festival. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas , they were not doing that. Still in India there is a class, very expert in dancing, singing. Low class. Their hereditary business is like that. So you have given everything. You have given all the structure. We have to present it rightly. *Even, say, hundred years ago, that Girish Chandra Ghosh, he wanted to introduce theatrical performances, imitating the European theatrical performances, man and woman taking part. So he wanted to invite woman artist. Not a single woman joined. Who will go to public stage to dance, respectable girl? They'll never. That is hundred years. I am speaking, say, about forty years ago. In one of our community, the girl was to be married, and it is the custom in India, the bridegroom's party comes to see the girl, whether she is right. Similarly, the girl's party goes to see the . . . so they came to see one of my friend's daughter. The daughter is very beautiful, rich man's daughter. So one of the bridegroom party questioned, "You know how to dance?" That was his question to the girl: "You have learned something about dancing and singing?" So she was my friend's daughter, my, that friend, Mukunda Mullik. His elder brother was there. He became very angry that, "This rascal is asking our daughter whether she knows dancing and singing." She took it as . . . he took it as insult that, "Respectable family, daughter should learn how to dance, and sing?" So immediately he protested, "No, no, no, she does not know how to dance, how to sing. She's not meant for that purpose. We like, of course, a young girl dancing and singing, but we cannot teach our family members. We spend for that outside. You cannot expect our Mullik's family daughter dancing and singing. No." He is very persistent. Actually that is . . . dancing? Singing? What is this nonsense? For a respectable family? It is meant for the low*-class professional. Pay them, they will dance. Or go to some prostitute. She will dance. So he said that "We have got some taste for dancing, but not that our family members should do that. We pay for that outside." So this art . . . and among the theatrical, Girish Chandra Ghosh could not get a single response from any respectable family. Then he had to seek some young girls from the prostitute class. They became later on famous artists, Kusumkamali Dasi, this Dasi . . . nowadays it has become a fashion that aristocratic family should join this cinema and spoil their character. Otherwise it was meant for the . . . no respectable man. You find the Bhāgavata description, especially for these professional who would come. They'll take their reward. This class is very influential today, this cinema artist, performer. Whenever there's a Presidential race . . . Just like George. What is his value? He's artist, that's all. From educational point of view, from other things view, he does not know anything. But he has got some money on account of his artistic payment, and he's big man, that's all. Somehow or other get money, you become a big man. There is no question of culture or anything. That is stated in the Bhāgavata . The money will be the criterion—no family, culture, education. These things will not be taken into account. If you have got money, then you are big man. Never mind what you are. Therefore people are after money. Who is going to be Brahmin ? If you become a perfect Brahmin , who will care for you? Nobody is interested to become a Brahmin . "Why we shall become Brahmin , starve? For starvation?" Nowadays in the college, they're not interested in art, philosophy, English literature. No, they . . . nobody. They go for technical, how they will get more money. They do not want. Some of the doctor, professor, they came to request us to give our student. They are not getting student. And after few years they'll be all dismissed. Who will pay them? Hayagrīva told me, he's not getting any job. There is another, Mr. . . . Dr. Henderson. He's also not getting any job. He's selling incense. And Bon Mahārāja, his institute is suffering from the very beginning till now, simply begging, begging and paying, paying the professor. No student. First of all he started Vaiṣṇava philosophy, so doctorate, Ph.D. So especially in India, who is going to take Ph.D. in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and starve? So this is failure. It is already failure, but he is persistent. Therefore people are very surprised we are not starving. Why we shall starve? We are not starving. We are, rather, inviting, "Come here, live comfortably, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then what is the difference between Kṛṣṇa's state and ordinary state? When I see so many young boys are taking prasādam , I become so happy that they are having prasādam and good chance for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. They are living in the best house. Even the churches, they are not feeding people like this. They have so much money. *They do not know whose money, how to spend it. Bokā*-loka. (pause) In the evening I took that watermelon juice? That created havoc whole night. I think so. So for breakfast you can prepare that soup, the little. Just put vegetable soup. Vegetable soup. That's all. Nothing else? No fruits? You can keep; if I like I can take. But the vegetable soup. What time would you like breakfast? Half past seven, eight. We are publishing one book, Dialectic Spiritualism. What is that? Harikeśa Mahārāja's book. No, no. Another one Prabhupāda's spoke. The philosophy book. Oh, the philosophy book will be called Dialectic Spiritualism ? Ah, very good title. A Vedic View of Western Philosophy . Very good title. *That's a fact. If one actually interested in real philosophy, they must come to spiritualism. Ātma*-tattvam. That is ātma-tattvam. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam ( SB 5.5.5). So long they do not come to this platform of understanding ātma-tattva , whatever rascal they are doing, simply defeat, that's all. Parābhava . Simply frustration and defeat. This very word, parābhava , means defeat. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ . Why he's defeated? Abodha-jātaḥ. Because by birth he's a rascal. Abodha-jātaḥ . And this will continue, yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam . So long he's not enlightened to inquire about spirit and the science of spirit, he'll remain in that, that, what is called, defeat position or conquered position. So we have to now increase our scope. Everything we have got. If you don't come to this platform, ātma-tattva , then your all attempt will be defeat. You are already defeated, frustrated. Simply struggling, that's all. Either take the capitalist or Communist, who has conquered? Everyone is defeated. One party may be proud that, "We have been victorious." What victory you have got? What is the victory? Not that the Communist countries, they are all happy. This is not the fact. Then where is your victory? Simply beating the drum that they have got victory, victory? "We have gone to moon planet. We have gone to Mars." Cheating innocent public. Is that victory? (pause) The girls are working that side? No. No, they won't come for another half hour yet. They can come earlier if you like. They can come any time you like. No. No, I have no objection. What is that? They'll work that side, I'll sit down here. They should come now. (leaves room) Yes. Our program is solid, but if we have to argue with animals, that is a different thing. Otherwise any human being, they will accept. But the modern civilization means to keep the people in general in animal platform, that's all, and cheat them. (pause) Most of the people who . . . they are becoming attracted to this Communist philosophy, they have no idea how to practically apply it. All they are seeing is "It is an opportunity to take from the rich and give me to enjoy." But they are not seeing any scope of community cooperation. This is all impractical. They are seeing, "I will get money from my boss. I will take his wealth and distribute." They are simply materialists. That also "Distribute for me. More share for me." (laughs) Now there is drought; there is no rain. What the capitalists or Communists can do in this connection? If they are able to present any program how to counteract? Then where is your progress? When there is some calamity, you both of you are simply looking. That's all. You cannot do anything. Then where is your progress? The reason why the Russians were buying wheat from America . . . Yes? . . . because they had no rain. All their crops failed. Not only that, people aren't inclined to work very hard. The farmers are not very enthusiastic to work very hard, because they work very hard, but they have to give all the fruit away. So because they are karmīs , they want the fruit. The state is taking the fruit, therefore they don't want to work. Why they shall work? They have no incentive. "I'll work and you'll enjoy. Why shall we work?" That is natural tendency. This can be possible only for Kṛṣṇa. "I'll work; Kṛṣṇa will enjoy." That's all. That is only possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's a fact. Therefore it's the only practical communism. *"I shall fight, give my all best, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied." . . . (indistinct) . . . Arjuna for his personal, he did not . . . decline, but when he saw that, "Kṛṣṇa wants it? All right." That is kṛṣṇa*-prema. "Never mind I shall be aggrieved by killing my kinsmen, but Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. That's all right." This is Kṛṣṇa philosophy. We cannot find this philosophy in the material world that, "I shall work, and so many will be satisfied." That is not possible. "If I work, I must be satisfied." So these Communists, they will work according to . . . everyone will show that "I have no capacity." So the production will reduce, and they'll have to beg. *They've had to introduce capitalistic*-type incentives in many of the Communist countries in order to induce the people to work. Not capitalistic. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. They'll have to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa, and for Kṛṣṇa, they are prepared to do anything. That is philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first class, Vaiṣṇava. Yenātmā suprasīdati . Who knows this verse? Find out this verse. *Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo ? First Canto. "The first*-class occupation is that which brings love of God. When uninterested, unmotivated, it brings satisfaction." Yes. Who will understand this philosophy? "The supreme occupation, dharma' , for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self." So the Communist teaching that, "You love Lenin," and the capitalist teaching that, "You love Washington," so nobody's satisfied. Unless the love comes to Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of satisfied. There's no reciprocation. Anyway, there must be defect because the love is reposed in some defective or imperfect personality. It may be Lenin or it may be Washington, it doesn't matter. He's imperfect. (bell rings) Who's that? They're cleaning. By accident they must have pushed it. Love is there. Otherwise why so many people are working? But because it is misplaced, they are not satisfied. Therefore it is stated, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Adhokṣaje , this word, is used. God . . . they may say that, "Where is God?" And therefore the word is used, adhokṣaje : "beyond your sense perception." Everything is within sense perception. So therefore this very word is used that, "You cannot see, you cannot perceive, but still you have to love Him." Adhokṣaje . They say, therefore, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is some ideal, imagination, Kṛṣṇa. They think . . . they say: "They have an imaginary form of Kṛṣṇa, a stone, and unnecessarily they are wasting their time, loving Kṛṣṇa." What is their theory? You know that? Some people think. Yes, they are some. They are not all. Even they criticize that, "You cannot see Kṛṣṇa," so similar argument can be, "You do not see Lenin. Why you are worshiping?" That's it. "Is Lenin present before you? So why you are worshiping?" You'll see. You have got, in Moscow got, every street corner a big picture. They're trying to replace everybody's desire to worship some greater authority. *Anyway, but if you or somebody argues, "Where is Lenin? You are . . . why you are worshiping? You cannot see Lenin." Because they say, "Where is your Kṛṣṇa? You are worshiping a statue," so we can say the same thing, "Where is your Lenin? The statue, it is?" In the airport station, street crossing and everywhere there is picture. And they go to worship Lenin's tomb every day. Many other fools also go there, tourists, that Red Square. They tried in India for Jawaharlal's tomb, for Gandhi's tomb. So in the beginning there was little crowd. Now nobody goes. But Vṛndāvana, Govindajī's temple, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple? Without invitation—crowd. This is culture. (loud chanting begins in background as curtains open in temple room) Marx, he has written only little book, and you have written so many books. What does he know, he'll write? What does he know that he will write? He can bluff people for . . . that's all. Here is Vyāsadeva, vidvān . So: You have found? Read it. "The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned Vyāsadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth." So here is vidvān , and there is a rascal. He does not know how people will be helped. (pause) Where you got these beads? Vṛndāvana. Purchased? Someone gave them as gift, a devotee. Tulasī . In Hawaii there are so many tulasīs , dry wood. We can make those. (pause) In our preaching this is good point, that we do not alienate the Communist and stress on the differences between us and them. Yes. That can come later. *But they see practically that, "We are theorizing while they're practically doing." So expand this farming project, self*-help and peaceful life for spiritual culture. I saw that Philadelphia farming is better organized than all others. Yes, in Pennsylvania they have the best farm. It is the best farm. They bought it, it already had all this equipment and best flat farmland, whereas New Vrindavan, they have such a . . . Hilly. Hilly, and the place was originally not very nice. Everything they had to build from scratch. The management in New Vrindavan is a lot more difficult as well, because they've tried to avoid machinery, so the whole concept of farming without any complicated machinery . . . But they have got so many machine. In New Vrindavan there are so many machinery. Not so much tractors and things, though. They've been trying to concentrate with just oxen and things like that, so it's taken a while to develop the whole concept, whereas in Pennsylvania they're using so many machines. No, we are not . . . (indistinct) . . . various things. In our Vancouver farm, because we had machinery, we were able to put more land under cultivation in the first year than they had in New Vrindavan after so many years. Seemed very efficient. Thing is, we should not become dependent on machine. Yes. This unemployment is to their discredit. In the karmis society the unemployment is a great discredit. Now people sitting idle. There will be great catastrophe. The unemployment will increase, and people will be very much dissatisfied, especially the black. They will create havoc. This is artificial. They are increasing the production of tire tube and . . . (indistinct) . . . then who will purchase? Nobody lives in tire tube. Therefore unemployment. So therefore reduce production. You cannot go on increasing. You very much trade this tire tube and so many artificial . . . it is very artificial civilization. (break) Here, so far milk and food grains are concerned, whatever sumptuously you want to eat, eat. Balance you can keep stock. The milk can be converted into ghee , then keep stock, and the grains can be stocked. Whenever you like, you just grind the grains and have to eat, halavā . It's very ecstatic. If you have got excess, you can distribute free prasādam , "Come on." You make friends. *You gave one argument before about this meat*-eating. You say: "If you want to eat meat, that is all right. Why you don't wait until the animal dies naturally?" Yes. "He's going to die one day. So you wait. Now, in the meantime, you can eat cats and dogs." While waiting for the cows to die. Yes, cats and dogs they are eating. Yes. Hong Kong, they are eating. Who said that one gentleman came to Hong Kong hotel? Eh? One of the devotees in America. Some man came with his pet dog. So in America they tie up the dogs outside the restaurant, so he did that and he went in. And then he pointed, he showed the doorman his dog, meaning that he was liable to look after him. So after he'd eaten his meal he went out and his dog was gone. So after some inquiry they found out that when he showed the doorman the dog, he misunderstood and thought that he wanted to eat it, that he was bringing his lunch with him, so he took the dog and killed it and served him. He ate his dog. A local policeman here said that in England there are more laws protecting the dogs than there are protecting the children. If you beat your children, there is no problem. If you beat your dog, immediately they'll come arrest you. Ācchā ? Yes. I've seen in India, they are bringing foreign dogs. Even that one gosvāmī in Vṛndāvana, he has got French dogs. That poodles. Yes. *He's rascal. " Jagat*-guru ." (pause) So you can go. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . (end) Conversation -- July 27, 1976, London He is so monied man. He cannot get nice food even, the primary necessities. And getting jaundice. He had jaundice? Yes, he just recovered from jaundice. Thinks he was poisoned by something he ate. The main reason why he doesn't . . . he got jaundice because, he admitted this that he had Ravi Shankar's brother cooking for him. Eh? He had one Kumar Shankar, the brother of Ravi Shankar, is cooking for him. So this man is a demon; therefore he is becoming sick. *Yes, they are all drunkards, all third*-class men, fourth-class men, low-class men. In India, this naṭas , they are third class, fourth class. Naṭas means the artist—singer, dancers. They are meant for the fourth-class, fifth-class men. It was never taken by the . . . they are called, and they will expertly sing, dance, in some festival. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas , they were not doing that. Still in India there is a class, very expert in dancing, singing. Low class. Their hereditary business is like that. So you have given everything. You have given all the structure. We have to present it rightly. *Even, say, hundred years ago, that Girish Chandra Ghosh, he wanted to introduce theatrical performances, imitating the European theatrical performances, man and woman taking part. So he wanted to invite woman artist. Not a single woman joined. Who will go to public stage to dance, respectable girl? They'll never. That is hundred years. I am speaking, say, about forty years ago. In one of our community, the girl was to be married, and it is the custom in India, the bridegroom's party comes to see the girl, whether she is right. Similarly, the girl's party goes to see the . . . so they came to see one of my friend's daughter. The daughter is very beautiful, rich man's daughter. So one of the bridegroom party questioned, "You know how to dance?" That was his question to the girl: "You have learned something about dancing and singing?" So she was my friend's daughter, my, that friend, Mukunda Mullik. His elder brother was there. He became very angry that, "This rascal is asking our daughter whether she knows dancing and singing." She took it as . . . he took it as insult that, "Respectable family, daughter should learn how to dance, and sing?" So immediately he protested, "No, no, no, she does not know how to dance, how to sing. She's not meant for that purpose. We like, of course, a young girl dancing and singing, but we cannot teach our family members. We spend for that outside. You cannot expect our Mullik's family daughter dancing and singing. No." He is very persistent. Actually that is . . . dancing? Singing? What is this nonsense? For a respectable family? It is meant for the low*-class professional. Pay them, they will dance. Or go to some prostitute. She will dance. So he said that "We have got some taste for dancing, but not that our family members should do that. We pay for that outside." So this art . . . and among the theatrical, Girish Chandra Ghosh could not get a single response from any respectable family. Then he had to seek some young girls from the prostitute class. They became later on famous artists, Kusumkamali Dasi, this Dasi . . . nowadays it has become a fashion that aristocratic family should join this cinema and spoil their character. Otherwise it was meant for the . . . no respectable man. You find the Bhāgavata description, especially for these professional who would come. They'll take their reward. This class is very influential today, this cinema artist, performer. Whenever there's a Presidential race . . . Just like George. What is his value? He's artist, that's all. From educational point of view, from other things view, he does not know anything. But he has got some money on account of his artistic payment, and he's big man, that's all. Somehow or other get money, you become a big man. There is no question of culture or anything. That is stated in the Bhāgavata . The money will be the criterion—no family, culture, education. These things will not be taken into account. If you have got money, then you are big man. Never mind what you are. Therefore people are after money. Who is going to be Brahmin ? If you become a perfect Brahmin , who will care for you? Nobody is interested to become a Brahmin . "Why we shall become Brahmin , starve? For starvation?" Nowadays in the college, they're not interested in art, philosophy, English literature. No, they . . . nobody. They go for technical, how they will get more money. They do not want. Some of the doctor, professor, they came to request us to give our student. They are not getting student. And after few years they'll be all dismissed. Who will pay them? Hayagrīva told me, he's not getting any job. There is another, Mr. . . . Dr. Henderson. He's also not getting any job. He's selling incense. And Bon Mahārāja, his institute is suffering from the very beginning till now, simply begging, begging and paying, paying the professor. No student. First of all he started Vaiṣṇava philosophy, so doctorate, Ph.D. So especially in India, who is going to take Ph.D. in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and starve? So this is failure. It is already failure, but he is persistent. Therefore people are very surprised we are not starving. Why we shall starve? We are not starving. We are, rather, inviting, "Come here, live comfortably, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then what is the difference between Kṛṣṇa's state and ordinary state? When I see so many young boys are taking prasādam , I become so happy that they are having prasādam and good chance for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. They are living in the best house. Even the churches, they are not feeding people like this. They have so much money. *They do not know whose money, how to spend it. Bokā*-loka. (pause) In the evening I took that watermelon juice? That created havoc whole night. I think so. So for breakfast you can prepare that soup, the little. Just put vegetable soup. Vegetable soup. That's all. Nothing else? No fruits? You can keep; if I like I can take. But the vegetable soup. What time would you like breakfast? Half past seven, eight. We are publishing one book, Dialectic Spiritualism. What is that? Harikeśa Mahārāja's book. No, no. Another one Prabhupāda's spoke. The philosophy book. Oh, the philosophy book will be called Dialectic Spiritualism ? Ah, very good title. A Vedic View of Western Philosophy . Very good title. *That's a fact. If one actually interested in real philosophy, they must come to spiritualism. Ātma*-tattvam. That is ātma-tattvam. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam ( SB 5.5.5). So long they do not come to this platform of understanding ātma-tattva , whatever rascal they are doing, simply defeat, that's all. Parābhava . Simply frustration and defeat. This very word, parābhava , means defeat. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ . Why he's defeated? Abodha-jātaḥ. Because by birth he's a rascal. Abodha-jātaḥ . And this will continue, yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam . So long he's not enlightened to inquire about spirit and the science of spirit, he'll remain in that, that, what is called, defeat position or conquered position. So we have to now increase our scope. Everything we have got. If you don't come to this platform, ātma-tattva , then your all attempt will be defeat. You are already defeated, frustrated. Simply struggling, that's all. Either take the capitalist or Communist, who has conquered? Everyone is defeated. One party may be proud that, "We have been victorious." What victory you have got? What is the victory? Not that the Communist countries, they are all happy. This is not the fact. Then where is your victory? Simply beating the drum that they have got victory, victory? "We have gone to moon planet. We have gone to Mars." Cheating innocent public. Is that victory? (pause) The girls are working that side? No. No, they won't come for another half hour yet. They can come earlier if you like. They can come any time you like. No. No, I have no objection. What is that? They'll work that side, I'll sit down here. They should come now. (leaves room) Yes. Our program is solid, but if we have to argue with animals, that is a different thing. Otherwise any human being, they will accept. But the modern civilization means to keep the people in general in animal platform, that's all, and cheat them. (pause) Most of the people who . . . they are becoming attracted to this Communist philosophy, they have no idea how to practically apply it. All they are seeing is "It is an opportunity to take from the rich and give me to enjoy." But they are not seeing any scope of community cooperation. This is all impractical. They are seeing, "I will get money from my boss. I will take his wealth and distribute." They are simply materialists. That also "Distribute for me. More share for me." (laughs) Now there is drought; there is no rain. What the capitalists or Communists can do in this connection? If they are able to present any program how to counteract? Then where is your progress? When there is some calamity, you both of you are simply looking. That's all. You cannot do anything. Then where is your progress? The reason why the Russians were buying wheat from America . . . Yes? . . . because they had no rain. All their crops failed. Not only that, people aren't inclined to work very hard. The farmers are not very enthusiastic to work very hard, because they work very hard, but they have to give all the fruit away. So because they are karmīs , they want the fruit. The state is taking the fruit, therefore they don't want to work. Why they shall work? They have no incentive. "I'll work and you'll enjoy. Why shall we work?" That is natural tendency. This can be possible only for Kṛṣṇa. "I'll work; Kṛṣṇa will enjoy." That's all. That is only possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's a fact. Therefore it's the only practical communism. *"I shall fight, give my all best, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied." . . . (indistinct) . . . Arjuna for his personal, he did not . . . decline, but when he saw that, "Kṛṣṇa wants it? All right." That is kṛṣṇa*-prema. "Never mind I shall be aggrieved by killing my kinsmen, but Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. That's all right." This is Kṛṣṇa philosophy. We cannot find this philosophy in the material world that, "I shall work, and so many will be satisfied." That is not possible. "If I work, I must be satisfied." So these Communists, they will work according to . . . everyone will show that "I have no capacity." So the production will reduce, and they'll have to beg. *They've had to introduce capitalistic*-type incentives in many of the Communist countries in order to induce the people to work. Not capitalistic. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. They'll have to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa, and for Kṛṣṇa, they are prepared to do anything. That is philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first class, Vaiṣṇava. Yenātmā suprasīdati . Who knows this verse? Find out this verse. *Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo ? First Canto. "The first*-class occupation is that which brings love of God. When uninterested, unmotivated, it brings satisfaction." Yes. Who will understand this philosophy? "The supreme occupation, dharma' , for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self." So the Communist teaching that, "You love Lenin," and the capitalist teaching that, "You love Washington," so nobody's satisfied. Unless the love comes to Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of satisfied. There's no reciprocation. Anyway, there must be defect because the love is reposed in some defective or imperfect personality. It may be Lenin or it may be Washington, it doesn't matter. He's imperfect. (bell rings) Who's that? They're cleaning. By accident they must have pushed it. Love is there. Otherwise why so many people are working? But because it is misplaced, they are not satisfied. Therefore it is stated, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Adhokṣaje , this word, is used. God . . . they may say that, "Where is God?" And therefore the word is used, adhokṣaje : "beyond your sense perception." Everything is within sense perception. So therefore this very word is used that, "You cannot see, you cannot perceive, but still you have to love Him." Adhokṣaje . They say, therefore, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is some ideal, imagination, Kṛṣṇa. They think . . . they say: "They have an imaginary form of Kṛṣṇa, a stone, and unnecessarily they are wasting their time, loving Kṛṣṇa." What is their theory? You know that? Some people think. Yes, they are some. They are not all. Even they criticize that, "You cannot see Kṛṣṇa," so similar argument can be, "You do not see Lenin. Why you are worshiping?" That's it. "Is Lenin present before you? So why you are worshiping?" You'll see. You have got, in Moscow got, every street corner a big picture. They're trying to replace everybody's desire to worship some greater authority. *Anyway, but if you or somebody argues, "Where is Lenin? You are . . . why you are worshiping? You cannot see Lenin." Because they say, "Where is your Kṛṣṇa? You are worshiping a statue," so we can say the same thing, "Where is your Lenin? The statue, it is?" In the airport station, street crossing and everywhere there is picture. And they go to worship Lenin's tomb every day. Many other fools also go there, tourists, that Red Square. They tried in India for Jawaharlal's tomb, for Gandhi's tomb. So in the beginning there was little crowd. Now nobody goes. But Vṛndāvana, Govindajī's temple, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple? Without invitation—crowd. This is culture. (loud chanting begins in background as curtains open in temple room) Marx, he has written only little book, and you have written so many books. What does he know, he'll write? What does he know that he will write? He can bluff people for . . . that's all. Here is Vyāsadeva, vidvān . So: You have found? Read it. "The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned Vyāsadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth." So here is vidvān , and there is a rascal. He does not know how people will be helped. (pause) Where you got these beads? Vṛndāvana. Purchased? Someone gave them as gift, a devotee. Tulasī . In Hawaii there are so many tulasīs , dry wood. We can make those. (pause) In our preaching this is good point, that we do not alienate the Communist and stress on the differences between us and them. Yes. That can come later. *But they see practically that, "We are theorizing while they're practically doing." So expand this farming project, self*-help and peaceful life for spiritual culture. I saw that Philadelphia farming is better organized than all others. Yes, in Pennsylvania they have the best farm. It is the best farm. They bought it, it already had all this equipment and best flat farmland, whereas New Vrindavan, they have such a . . . Hilly. Hilly, and the place was originally not very nice. Everything they had to build from scratch. The management in New Vrindavan is a lot more difficult as well, because they've tried to avoid machinery, so the whole concept of farming without any complicated machinery . . . But they have got so many machine. In New Vrindavan there are so many machinery. Not so much tractors and things, though. They've been trying to concentrate with just oxen and things like that, so it's taken a while to develop the whole concept, whereas in Pennsylvania they're using so many machines. No, we are not . . . (indistinct) . . . various things. In our Vancouver farm, because we had machinery, we were able to put more land under cultivation in the first year than they had in New Vrindavan after so many years. Seemed very efficient. Thing is, we should not become dependent on machine. Yes. This unemployment is to their discredit. In the karmis society the unemployment is a great discredit. Now people sitting idle. There will be great catastrophe. The unemployment will increase, and people will be very much dissatisfied, especially the black. They will create havoc. This is artificial. They are increasing the production of tire tube and . . . (indistinct) . . . then who will purchase? Nobody lives in tire tube. Therefore unemployment. So therefore reduce production. You cannot go on increasing. You very much trade this tire tube and so many artificial . . . it is very artificial civilization. (break) Here, so far milk and food grains are concerned, whatever sumptuously you want to eat, eat. Balance you can keep stock. The milk can be converted into ghee , then keep stock, and the grains can be stocked. Whenever you like, you just grind the grains and have to eat, halavā . It's very ecstatic. If you have got excess, you can distribute free prasādam , "Come on." You make friends. *You gave one argument before about this meat*-eating. You say: "If you want to eat meat, that is all right. Why you don't wait until the animal dies naturally?" Yes. "He's going to die one day. So you wait. Now, in the meantime, you can eat cats and dogs." While waiting for the cows to die. Yes, cats and dogs they are eating. Yes. Hong Kong, they are eating. Who said that one gentleman came to Hong Kong hotel? Eh? One of the devotees in America. Some man came with his pet dog. So in America they tie up the dogs outside the restaurant, so he did that and he went in. And then he pointed, he showed the doorman his dog, meaning that he was liable to look after him. So after he'd eaten his meal he went out and his dog was gone. So after some inquiry they found out that when he showed the doorman the dog, he misunderstood and thought that he wanted to eat it, that he was bringing his lunch with him, so he took the dog and killed it and served him. He ate his dog. A local policeman here said that in England there are more laws protecting the dogs than there are protecting the children. If you beat your children, there is no problem. If you beat your dog, immediately they'll come arrest you. Ācchā ? Yes. I've seen in India, they are bringing foreign dogs. Even that one gosvāmī in Vṛndāvana, he has got French dogs. That poodles. Yes. *He's rascal. " Jagat*-guru ." (pause) So you can go. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . (end) Conversation A -- July 31, 1976, New Mayapur *Many scholars are appreciating more and more. And on the University of Edmonton, in Alberta, Canada, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he was a linguist, professor of linguistics. He's a very pious man, and he is writing a book with some other professor in the Religion department on the comparative study of bhakti in the Indian tradition and the Hebrew tradition. And he's using your books as his only source for the Indian tradition. So he ordered not only one set of all the books, but two sets of all your books. Three sets actually. He ordered one set of Bhāgavatams for his own personal library, then he ordered two sets for the University library—one for the reference section and one for the general section. So he ordered three sets. And when his book comes out, in the back they have a bibliography section, references, and he will give reference to all your books. He was wondering . . . he's writing this book about bhakti , and he said: "What is a good definition of bhakti for the Indian tradition?" So I showed him Nectar of Devotion , anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). He said that is very good, and he wrote it down and put it in his book. Till now, they took bhakti as a matter of sentiment. Religious science they did not know, all over the world. He said he's trying to show that by studying bhakti in Indian tradition and also in Hebrew tradition, he's . . . Bhakti is not achieved by studying. Bhakti stage is achieved by practice. That is the special significance of our institution, that we are engaging our men in practicing. Therefore they are getting knowledge—not by reading. He was saying there are certain social and economic conditions that need to be present before bhakti can come about. Bhakti can solve everything—social, economical, cultural, religious, everything. (coughing heavily) So Dr. Joseph saw all my books? *Every one he saw. We showed him some . . . he was very happy to see the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Yes, I offered him the post of editing. Now he's sorry. Now he's simply sitting in debt. (means: he feels he can't repay his debt to you) But he did not say no. He wanted to do conveniently. Then I thought, it will not be . . . (coughs) "When he will return, he'll do it." That is not possible. He gave me some of his books that he wrote. He gave me some to read. And actually the English in your books is much better than his books, so better he's not editing. It's coming out better. No, he's not a good English scholar. Actually, he speaks perfect French also. And he got his Ph.D. from the University of Paris. Paris or Dutch as well. He's been every place. He went to . . . in Paris he got in the Sorbonne, and also in Pondicherry they have one French Institute, and there he got his Ph.D. And also in Holland there is one very important man. So by his letters we can . . . many people will take our books. No, he's undoubtedly very great Sanskrit scholar. He had written some book how to make the sacred thread, like that. How many knots should be there, how many . . . (laughter) Smārta Brahmin. *Now he's written another book to show how his life is changing. His latest book was about the five chapters of the Dasama*-skanda , which is the rasa-līlā. That is his book now. Oh. So he's changing smārta , now he's turning different. No, he has no training in bhakti . *He said one nice thing. He said that without Jīva Gosvāmī's Ṣaṭ*-sandarbhas there's no question of understanding Bhāgavatam . Hmm? He made that statement. (coughing) I met him when he was in Delhi once. We were very inspired, in Delhi, that almost every college we went to, they already had your three books, and the librarians, they would remember. We would ask them, "When did you get these books?" They'd think, "Well, about ten, twelve years ago, some sannyāsī came. We purchased." So they remembered. They were . . . (indistinct) So now they took others? Now . . . we said that, "You've begun, this is only the beginning. You cannot have incomplete set." They said: "Yes, we cannot have incomplete," so they took the rest. And also that man, that Shastri, the Ministry of Education? That man Mr. Shastri, in the Ministry of Education, the Rātrī of Sanskrit- samsad , he bought fifty copies? Oh, yes. He's also, I think, taken fifty standing orders now to complete wherever he is. He is still there? No, he has shifted now. He's in Darbhanga. But his successor, he's taken. We just made copy, it is printed in your *Bhāgavatam* . So he made true copy on some paper, and he has two copies of the last order, and this is the balance of his subscription, so now he should take. That is Education Ministry. They're only giving the Sanskrit. They can take at least fifty copies of each. Yes. So he's doing that now. They gave me order, I dispatched by post, and if the acknowledgement received, I submitted my bill, they paid. We're going to find the list of which universities you sent to, because we only found . . . not that many. That will be a waste of time. (laughter) So many things I did not keep record. Even in Poona, they had, the Deccan College in Poona. They also had. We sent to them also. They also ordered balance. In Bombay also I supplied to so many colleges. And the Public Library. That Royal Asiatic Society. Ah. In Bombay they purchase all the books. We had to do a little negotiation with them, but they purchased everything. Then the Calcutta Royal Asiatic Society, they wrote us a letter, they said that, "These books are the best," the letter came like that, but that "we have no funds to purchase, so can you please send us free of charge?" They have no funds? Asiatic? They said like that. Maybe. Nowadays people are not interested in cultural societies. They are simply for belly. How to earn money, that's all. Śūdra mentality. The brāhmaṇa mentality is gone. In America also, people are not joining cultural classes of philosophy. Hayagrīva said that he has no job because nobody is taking English as literary study. Nobody's interested. They are taking to technology. Science. Science means how to make the motorcar wheel, that's all. This is their science. In America, the professors complain to us. When we try to sell them personal books, they should take books themselves, they say that the salary of a college professor in America is the same as the salary of a waiter in some hotel. That is the respect they are given. Sometimes they are called church mouse. Church mouse. A mouse in the church, what he'll eat? He's in a householder's place, a mouse is there, he can eat something. But church, nobody's eating there. Simply dust, that's all. (laughter) Church mouse. Any new mail? Stacks of it. Quite a lot. Oh. Where from? Want to go over it now? Shall we go over everything now? Yes. Jyotirmāyī is outside, and Yogeśvara. We can have them come in? Just fix on the light. Is now the right time to ask? She has some questions on gurukula . Is now okay? (indistinct) . . . has not come? They haven't come as yet. Yogeśvara has just come back from Italy. Yes. What is the news, Italy? *They've finished the preparation for the printing of the French edition of Kṛṣṇa Book and Śrī Upadeśāmṛta and the Italian Bhagavad*-gītā , and they should be ready within the next ten days. French language. *And Italian Bhagavad*-gītā is done. What is the political position of the Fascist and Communist? Very mixed up. They are called Christian Democrats. (laughs) They can manufacture so many. Fertile brain in the tract of deserted world. This world is desert, and they have got fertile brain. They call? The fertile land in the deserted land, in the desert, is called oasis. So similarly, these rascals, they have got fertile brain in the world of desert, but there is no happiness. But they have got fertile brain how to manufacture happiness. And māyā kicks on their face and baffles everything. This is the illusion. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā ( BG 7.14). They, the world is desert, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), but they have got fertile brain, how to become happy. And as soon as they make some arrangement, kicks on his face and broken. That's all. What do you think? Is it right? Sometimes you have got fertile brain. (laughter) This fertile brain, he will not accept. He'll be kicked out. Everything will be finished. If you want to be happy, then you have to go back home, back to Kṛṣṇa. That is the only way. Otherwise, your fertile brain will not help. What do you think, Jyotirmāyī? You are intelligent. I came to ask you some questions about the gurukula , because now if I don't ask them today . . . So gurukula means . . . find out that chapter, brahmacārī gurukule. 7.10 (background discussion about which verse) Vasan dānto guror hitam. (SB 7.12.1) The beginning of life is how to become cent percent obedient to guru . That is gurukula . That training should be given. The whole process is that our life will be successful when we strictly follow guru and Kṛṣṇa. Guru means Kṛṣṇa; *Kṛṣṇa means guru . Not Māyāvāda, but guru means one who follows Kṛṣṇa, he is guru . Sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ . So guru is directly God, sākṣād-hari. Sākṣād means "directly." So sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas , in every śāstra it is said the guru is God, Kṛṣṇa. So it is stated in the śāstra and it is accepted by authorities. Not that it is simply stated. Samasta-śāstrair, ukta . You understand little Sanskrit? *Some verses from Bhagavad*-gītā . *Huh? Ukta, ukta means "said." And sadbhiḥ , "by great personalities." Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas, tathā, and "accordingly"— tathā means "accordingly". Bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ , those who are actually in transcendental platform, they should accept it. So why? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva . . . it does not mean Māyāvādī, that he has become God. But kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya , he is the most confidential servant. He's therefore servant-God. He's God—servant-God. God is master-God. Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. So why he has become priya ? That is, Kṛṣṇa says personally, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69): nobody is dearer than him in the whole world. Why? Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidā . . . (BG 18.68), "who preaches this gospel of Bhagavad-gītā amongst My devotees." So the guru has got two business, he has to make devotee and teach them the principles of Bhagavad-gītā . Therefore he's so dear. Not that he has become God, not Māyāvādī philosophy. He's living entity, but because he acts very confidentially on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, therefore he's as good as God. This is going on. Not the Māyāvādī philosophy, that guru has become God. Guru is God, not become. He's servant-God. And Kṛṣṇa is master-God. So the success is that both the Gods, when one is accepted by both the Gods, then his life is success. Guru*-kṛṣṇa kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Therefore one has to fix his faith staunchly in the bona fide guru . So if one has got bona fide guru , and if he follows that bona fide guru , then his life is success. This is the process. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair . So gurukula means to teach how to become very, very faithful, cent percent faithful, to the bona fide guru . That is guru . So you have to teach like that—by behavior, by life, by action. That is gurukula . This sum and substance of . . . brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānto guror hitam. Where is that? We don't have the book. What you have got? Simply your face, that's all. I'll have to see your face. Why this book is not there? It's 7.3. There was only your copies are available at the moment, and we gave it to George Harrison. And you could not secure any more. The only other copy is in New York. Any other Bhāgavata ? Just see. Reference book must be always there. This is the principle of gurukula . Now from this platform, on this understanding, you have to organize. *You were saying that there are mainly three principles to learn: how to be obedient, how to know, read your books and be self*-controlled. So that's what I explained to the teacher, that they should keep that. *Guru says there are four principles to be followed. They should be taught in that way. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating, no intoxication. Guru says that you chant at least sixteen . . . that should be taught, learning, rise early in the morning, that should be taught. So whatever guru say, you have to teach them perfectly, from childhood—then there will be no deviation when they are grown-up. We have them chant now down there. When they chant japa , they chant very enthusiastically. So the teacher himself chants . . . *No, no. According to age, according to . . . but this is the principle. Gurukula means to learn how to become obedient, self*-controlled and act on behalf of guru . This is gurukula . Not to learn grammar very scholarly, grammarian. No, that is not gurukula . There are many thousand scholar —who cares for them? Put in the life. That is important. Our movement has drawn the attention of the world on account of life and the knowledge. They are finding the knowledge in the book and they are finding the practical application in life. That is the important thing. Books there are many, but the books as they are described, they are being followed. That is gurukula . Find out. Hmm? Yes? Guror hitam . So brahmacārī , a brahmacārī should live in the gurukula for the following purposes. The first is that he should be trained up how to control the senses. So that, if you teach any child from the childhood, he'll be trained up. In that case, that female children should be separated. I wanted to know also what should we do once they are sixteen, because you said they should be trained in a gurukula until they are sixteen. So once they are sixteen . . . *Once Sarasvatī said that, "We have no sex with woman." (laughter) So, innocent, she does not know. So that is, if they are kept separate, they remain innocent. And they are taught that all women should be addressed as mother. Whatever you get it, self*-control. And female children should be taught how to become faithful to the husband and to learn the arts of cooking, arts of painting—that should be their subject matter. Painting? *Yes. Sixty*-four arts, Rādhārāṇī did. Then She could control Kṛṣṇa. So after they have learned all the academics—reading, writing, all these . . . *Academic is ordinary, A*-B-C-D, that's all. Not very much. But these arts. They should learn how to cook nicely. And what should the boys be taught from ten to sixteen? *The principle is same, that when they grow up they learn the śāstra . The more they read, the more they learn. Then they become preacher, teacher. The grown*-up children, those who are fifteen, sixteen, they can teach five, six years old. Then they can take responsibility themselves. In this way. Elderly student . . . that is the way of Indian teaching, that there is one teacher, and how he's managing hundreds? That means there are groups. One who is elderly student, he's taking some beginners: "Write a or A like this." That he can teach. What he has learned, he can teach. Similarly, next group, next group. So in this way, one teacher can manage hundreds of students of different categories. This is organization. Not that "Everything I have to do. I cannot teach anybody to do it," that is not intelligence. Intelligence is that employ other to help you. That is intelligence. Not that "Oh, I was busy, I could not do it." Why? What about your assistant? Train assistant so that in your absence things can be done. So the elderly students, they should be . . . just Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He used to do that. When He was sixteen years old He could argue with Keśava Kāśmīrī, because He was practiced. And you explained that they should be . . . In this way, stage after stage, everyone should be expert. Everyone should be teacher and student. The boys, they should learn how also to cook? *Huh? I never said that. Why you are bringing that question? I said the girls should be. Cooking is not boy's business. But cooking is not very difficult art. If they want, the boys can . . . (coughs) There are so many. In the Bhakti*-rasāmṛta sindhu it is stated how Rādhārāṇī was qualified. So these things should be taught to the girls. If the girls are taught to give service to the husband to the greatest satisfaction, there will be no disagreement. Can the older boys be trained in a particular kind of devotional service? For example, Press work? *Oh, yes. Everything is devotional. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). There are varieties. We are not Māyāvādī, impersonalist, " Aham brahmasmi —finished, all business." It is not like that. So whatever business is going on in our movement, everything should be taught according to the capacity, boy or girls, it doesn't matter. Some department is suitable for the boy, some department are suitable for the girl. In this way, they should be trained up. But everyone should be trained up to give service. That is gurukula . (coughing) And brahmacārī , this sex impulse should be controlled. That ruins the whole character. Our big, big sannyāsīs are becoming victimized. So that is the danger. Woman is good, man is good; when they combine together, bad. This is the material world. Both of them are good, but when they combine together, they are bad. This is material world. In the spiritual world, there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore it is always good. Everyone is part and parcel of God, so they are good. In the spiritual world, they combine together, it becomes bad . . . in the material world. In the spiritual world there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore they are always good. So you have to train like that. In the spiritual world there are very, very beautiful woman, thousand, thousands times. Here, in the heavenly planets, they are calculated the best perfectional body of the woman. But in the spiritual world, still further. But there is no attraction of sex. They are working together, serving together, everything. But the sex attraction, there is no. They are elevated so much in the service of the Lord . . . sex attraction is a kind of pleasure. *So there are different types of pleasure. Here, if somebody, good foodstuff is there, and—that is also another sense pleasure—and by the time one beautiful woman is canvassing, "Now, come and let us enjoy," he will give up this good food. He'll go for sex, because he will think this is better than that. So one pleasure is rejected if one is engaged in better pleasure. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). So in the spiritual world the service of the Lord is so pleasing that they can neglect this sex pleasure. That is spiritual world. They have no attachment for sex pleasure. Yadāvadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāmānudyata bata nārī-saṅgame bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭu (Yāmunācārya). That is spiritual world. When one spits on the sex pleasure, that means he is elevated in spiritual life. So in the material world that is not possible. But by training, by knowledge, one can be elevated. That is gurukula . So these are the general principles. Now arrange. I was thinking about that, that because the girls are trained like brahmacārīnis also in the gurukula , they should be also kept very, very simple, just like the little boys, brahmacārīs . No, our life is simple. We don't want luxury. We don't want luxury, but as we are accustomed in so many ways, as far as possible. But life should be very simple. To increase unnecessary things unnecessarily, that is material life. I was thinking in that way—simple clothes, no jewels, just like the boys, simple . . . *Don't say "no." But give a taste for the good, then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," then he'll . . . they will rebel. The four "no's," that is very difficult. Still they are breaking. No illicit sex, they are breaking. But if they develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this will be automatically "no." So don't bring many "no's," but give them positive life. Then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," that will be a struggle. This is the psychology. (coughing) Positive engagement is devotional service. So if they are attracted by devotional service, other things will be automatically "no." Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Just like Ekādaśī day. Ekādaśī day, we observe fasting. And there are many patients in the hospital, they are also fasting, but there is no "No." They'll, within heart, "If I get, I shall eat, I shall eat." But those who are devotee, they are voluntarily "no." The same fasting is going on for the devotees and the hospital patient. And that "no" and this "no," there is difference. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. It is not meant for the mass of people, but at least if we keep a section of people ideal to the human society, they will be guided. At the present moment, there is no ideal section. Everyone is rascal, demons, rogue, everything. There is no ideal character. All politician, scientist, leader they are all drunkards and woman*-hunters. So what they can lead? There is no ideal man in the society. The politicians are giving big, big speech in the United Nation. They'll go to the same hotel where another debauchee is dancing and drinking. That's all. That is his character. Is it not? So what he will do? He can give very big speech, that's all. What is his character? There is no ideal character in the present human society. Do they appreciate our these restriction? Our restrictions? Yes, they are impressed. They sometimes write about the gurukula that we are treating roughly the children by making them so austere. But every time they show the picture, the children are always happy. *(coughing) They have standardized their happiness on this principle—illicit sex, meat*-eating, gambling. That is the standard. And if you deny that, they say: "Oh, it is impossible. This is the primary principles of life." Yes. Such a big man like Ronaldsay, he said: "Oh, it is impossible." He was a big man, philosopher, very nice gentleman—still he said: "Oh, it is impossible." (to Jyotirmāyī) You have any . . . Yes. You were saying that the children should learn these three, geography and these things, and I wanted to know if they should also learn what they call biology, that is how the body is working, what are the bones and blood and . . . What is the use? What is the use? Just to have some general knowledge . . . Simply waste of time. Simply waste of time. Even the basic of this? What is the basic? What you will know by that? Biology is going on, you study or not study. You are eating, it is transforming into blood, everyone knows. And how he's transforming into blood, what is the use? You were saying they should learn geography and history, just for general knowledge. That is because you have to go from America to India. You must know. (laughter) You have to calculate "Two plus two equal to four," a little mathematics. But this biology and this "logy," they are useless. There is no necessity. What you'll gain by understanding biology? Even one who knows biology, the medical man, he gives a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." "Perhaps." He's not sure. So what is the use? First of all he'll take one ounce blood from you, and they send, this station, that station, now making a chart, then he'll give a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." And this is going on. Even the biggest pathologist, medical man, cannot guarantee that whatever medicine he is giving is you . . . (break) We are not independent. Some group doctors? Some portion of the devotees, medicals knowledge? There is no harm. But when medical men are available by paying something, why should you waste your time? There are so many things we purchase, you pay for them. Not that we have to learn everything. So many things we have to do. Does it mean that you have to learn everything? There's lots of doctors, but there's no Brahmins , devotees. Yes. So the principle is, no, don't waste time. If one has already learned medical science, all right, bring him to some service. But not that our men has to go to the medical college to learn medical science. That is not the point. So because we're in the country, I was taking the children in the land here and teaching them how to recognize the different plants. Is that useful, or should I not do that? Different plants? Plants, yes. Here we have so many different plants growing, some medical plants, some that can be eaten. Is there any use? No. Different plants, that is botanical study; *that has also no utilization. But you can teach them, "Just see, this plant is coming from earth. The earth is the mother of this plant." These things you can convince them. Is it not a fact? The grass is coming, the tree is coming, and the animal eating grass. Then the animal is coming. The man is eating food grains, then man is coming. So originally the earth is the mother, feeding everyone. Is there any denial? What do you think? So earth is the mother of all living entities, convince them. So all living entities are children. Mother earth is the mother. The father? Where is father, find out. Everyone has got idea, father, mother and children. Children are there. The mother is there. Where is the father? If somebody says: "I have not seen the father. How can I recognize father?" that does not mean . . . because the mother is there, because the children are there, there must be father. If you do not know, try to know it from your mother, from your superior—from Veda*-mātā . You have to know from the Vedas . So at that young age they can very easily develop faith in Kṛṣṇa and guru . *Yes. Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā. *That's all. That study will be nice. Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ. Just like father gives the seed, similarly, Kṛṣṇa give the seed. The seed, when pushed into the womb of the mother and properly nourished, a rose plant comes out. This plant comes out. The seed is there. It is very easy. The father injects the seed within the womb of the mother, and the childs come out. Similarly, whatever is coming out from the earth, the seed-giving father is Kṛṣṇa. And when the seed is pushed within the womb of the mother, then the plant is coming, and everything. This nature's law is going on. Where is the necessity of understanding more than this? We understand the mother is pregnant. Now how she has been, how the child is growing, that is not under your control. It is going on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27), immediately it is in hand of the nature. Even if you study, you cannot understand how things are arranged—the intestine is joined to the navel of the child and the food is supplied, how it is mechanical . . . do you know everything? Can anyone do? Can anyone understand? But things are there. That is being done by prakṛtiḥ . Even if you study, you cannot understand. So best thing is to understand that it is being done by nature under the instruction of Supreme Lord. Let us chant Hare Kṛṣṇa instead of studying these . . . there are many students, many botanists, many . . . they, vaguely they are studying, and they have no understanding of Kṛṣṇa. They're denying, rather, the father. The child has come into existence without father. This is their knowledge. So instead of becoming such a fool and rascal, it is better not to study. I also thought of a way to help the children remember the *Kṛṣṇa Book* stories easier. It was . . . you started that long time ago with Madhupuri, you asked her to make the *Kṛṣṇa Book* into poem. That was long time ago in New York. Then she didn't do it . . . *Kṛṣṇa Book* is not difficult to be understood by . . . I was thinking if we make into poem and put music and they sing it, then they sing it they can remember . . . That you can do, to make it understandable easily. It is already easy. If you want to make more easy, then do that. Okay. You also allowed . . . you said that some parents can keep their children with them and teach themselves. *You follow that, brahmacārī guru*-kule vasan, that I've already explained. That should be done. Don't bring any new thing, imported ideas. That will not be helpful. It will be encumbrance. "My experiment with truth"—Gandhi's movement. Truth is truth. "Experiment" means you do not know what is truth. It is a way of life. Everything is stated there, try to train them. Simple thing. We are not going to teach biology or chemistry. They are not going to . . . our students are not going to. Our students should be fit for teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By their character, by their behavior, by their knowledge, that is wanted. Biologists, chemists, physicists and mathematicians there are hundreds and thousands. We are not going to waste our time that gurukula should produce a great grammarian, a great geologist, biologist. Don't want that. There are many other educational institutes. If you can get a good driver of your car, so what is the use of waste your time to learn driving? Is it not? If you have got important business, you can do that. Why should you waste your time to learn driving? Better employ one driver, pay him some fare. You once said in Vṛndāvana that the Marwaris, they don't bother going to school because they can make a lot of money by sitting by the phone and just pay a few rupees a day and any educated fool can do the work. *Yes, they do that. They are employing in their factories big, big chemist, big, big physicist, engineer and so on, but they do not bother. They are paying thirty thousand rupees per month salary, Birla. Expert, imported from foreign countries. But their sons are never troubled. (coughing) They know how to utilize that worker of thirty thousand rupees per month and to earn thirty lakhs from him. Why shall he waste his time? He knows how to . . . they earn. They pay a man thirty thousand and through him earn thirty lakhs . Actually, in order to make a balanced society, the varṇāśrama*-dharma is very important, cooperation. So these things are meant for the śūdras. Brāhmaṇas are not meant for this. You once told me that a brāhmaṇa must know how to do everything perfectly so that he can teach others. That may be, you may be a teacher, but you'll remain only a worker. That is another thing. Just like Dronācārya, he taught, he remained a teacher. So we can become a teacher of a particular subject matter, but that does not mean you should be worker. Still, there are many professors, they are teacher; *they are not worker. But if the teachers are available, why you should become a teacher? Let them teach. We have to save our time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. After all, this, in the modern world they have invented so many varieties of occupation unnecessarily, to develop economic condition. Is it not? But our philosophy is that you cannot develop your economic condition, then you are destined to suffer or enjoy. So one should not waste his time for so*-called development of economic condition. He should utilize his time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which was not possible in any other form of life. When we had cat's and dog's life, tree's life, we could not do that, development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now we have got human form of life, we should fully utilize it for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why should we waste our time for economic development? Economic development is not possible. Then every work, every city, they are trying to develop this economic condition, but they're simply struggling. Why they word it of "Struggle for existence" is there? It is not possible. Why there are varieties of social position? Everyone could come on the same standard. That is not possible. Anywhere you go, the three classes of men—upper class, middle class and lower class—is there. Is there any country where there is no these three classes, only the upper class? Is there any country? No. Then what is the use? (coughing) Anywhere you'll go, you'll find this upper class, (coughing) middle class and lower class. When I . . . in the beginning, I thought that America, everyone is richer class. So when I came, I saw the three classes are already there. The lower class, although the country has good facilities not to become lower class, still, voluntarily they are hippies, lower class. They are lying on the street. Although he has got very good opportunity to become first class, but he is lying on the street. Why? What is the answer? British Empire, London, the one is lying on the bench. New York, lying on the bench. There is no sufficient clothing. Why? Actually, he can live very comfortably, but why he's living in that condition? What is the answer? It's his nature. *No, he has to live in that way. That is his destiny. You cannot change it by artificial ways. Even if he has got all the facilities, he will have to live like that. That is nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅgo 'sya sad*-asad janma yoniṣu (BG 13.22). This is . . . so therefore there is no use of so-called improvement. And you cannot do it. This is a fact. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovido. Find out this verse. Na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ . Your standard of happiness and distress must be there, because you are destined by the laws of nature. You have to suffer although you are born in America. In New York you can get very comfortable life there; *still, you have lie down on bench, "Lie down." Although you are born of a rich man's family, you have to become hippies: "Lie down here." Who can check this? What is that law. Do they know it? But there is a law. There will be a first class, second class, third class, fourth class. You cannot check it. Huh? That New York City, so cared for. Nasty road, streets. And always, every moment— dung*-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung, gu-gu-gu-gu-gu-gu-gu —fire. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka . Fire is blazing. Despite all arrangement, fire is blazing. How can you stop it? Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, saṁsāra-biṣānale, dibaniśi hiya jvale (Hari Hari Biphale 2). The blazing fire of poison is always going on. Taribāre nā kāinu upāya. And one has to make ways how to get out of this fire. That is intelligence. Read that. "Persons who are actually intelligent and philosophically inclined should endeavor only for that purposeful end which is not obtainable even by wandering from the topmost planet (Brahmaloka) down to the lowest planet (Pātāla). As far as happiness derived from sense enjoyment is concerned, it can be obtained automatically in course of time, just as in course of time we obtain miseries, even though we do not desire them." This is philosophy. What is the purport? *"Every man everywhere is trying to obtain the greatest amount of sense enjoyment for various endeavors. Some of them are busy engaged in trade, industry, economic development, political supremacy, etc., and some of them are engaged in fruitive work to become happy in the next life by attaining higher planets. It is said that in the moon the inhabitants are fit for greater sense enjoyment by drinking soma*-rasa , and the Pitrloka is obtained by good charitable work. So there are various programs for sense enjoyment, either during this life or in the life after death." *Such a pleasing planet, and these rascals say there is no life. The moon is described everywhere, the most pleasing planet. Actually, when there is moon in the sky, how it is pleasing. So that planet is meant for the high*-class pious persons, and they get their life for ten thousands of years. They live very comfortably, drink soma-rasa. These are the description we get from śāstra . And these rascals say it is desert. And we have to believe them. And practically we see how pleasing it is. As soon as the moon planet is there, the whole atmosphere becomes pleasing. And it is desert. And we have to believe these rascal scientists and disregard the description of the śāstra . What do you think? Is that very good intelligence? No. We disregard the statement of Vyāsadeva, and we have to accept the statement of a rascal drunkard. (laughter) We are not so unfortunate. So unfortunate, they can believe that. We cannot believe. Now they have published pictures of Mars. Let them do that, befool others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). Because others, they are blind, this blind man, whatever he says, they believe. They will say, "Perhaps ten millions of years ago there was life, perhaps." These things are going on. But we know every planet is full of living entity. There is regular life and there are streets. The streets are paved with pearls, corals, in Svargaloka. We have got information. And what is their information? Scratching some sand and bring it, that's all. As if sand is not available. But we give information there are planets where the pavements are with pearls. Go and bring some pearls. There is the ocean of milk. Bring some milk from there. And then we shall understand that you are making some research. Simply all over the universe dry sand? And here the population is increasing. Just see. We have to believe all this. Everything is by nature vacant, and all people and animals are here. And we have to believe that. Hmm. Read it. They are exposing more and more about their nonsensical scientific inquiry. "Some are trying to reach the moon or other planets by some mechanical arrangement, for they are very anxious to get into such planets without doing good work. But it is not to happen. By the law of the Supreme, different places are meant for different grades of living beings according to the work they might have performed. By good work only, as prescribed in the scriptures, one can obtain birth in a good family, opulence, good education and good bodily features. We see also that even in this life one obtains a good education or money or bodily beauty. Similarly, in our next birth we get such desirable positions only by good work. Otherwise it would not so happen that two persons born in the same place at the same time are seen differently placed according to the previous work. But all such material positions are not permanent. The positions in the topmost Brahmaloka and in the lowest Pātāla are also changeable according to our own work. The philosophically inclined person must not be tempted by such changeable positions. He should try to get into the permanent life of bliss and knowledge where he will not be forced to come back again to the miserable material world, either in this or that planet. Miseries and mixed happiness are two features of material life, and they are obtained in Brahmaloka and in other lokas also. They are obtained in the life of the demigods and also in the life of the dogs and hogs. The miseries and mixed happiness of all living beings are only of different degree in quality, but no one is free from the miseries of birth, death, old age and disease. Similarly, everyone has his destined happiness also. No one can get more or less of these things simply by personal endeavors. Even if they are obtained, they can be lost again. One should not, therefore, waste time with these flimsy things, but one should only endeavor to go back to Godhead. That should be the mission of everyone's life." *That is our position. We should not waste a single moment for so*-called material things, happiness. Best save time and utilize it for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all right? Any more? Yes, and just one more. Huh? Because you were saying that the parents can keep their children and teach them themselves, like Arundhatī is teaching Aniruddha. So does it mean that the parents can . . . He complained that, "My boy is not being properly . . ." So I said that, "You teach your son." And she can keep him and teach him all the time? Until he's older and so on? *Yes. Yes. Yes. That is the duty of the father and mother. Along with that, he can teach others also. (coughing) These things are to be organized. But some way or other, our students should be given education and spiritual life, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Individually, collectively, somehow or other. The principle is laid down there, brahmacārī guru*-kule vasan dānto guror-hitam . That's the beginning. Everything is there, we have to simply follow. We haven't got to manufacture anything. That is waste of time. Whatever is there, you follow. Is that all right? Yes. Thank you. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) *. . . hand*-loomed silk. Thailand silk. (coughing) Yes. He has invited me to go to Thailand to meet the Prime Minister in October. Oh, if there is interview, you must go. Yes. Perhaps you would like to tell me on what level I should present our movement. *On the level of Bhagavad*-gītā . God is the supreme controller, and we have to learn how to remain peacefully under the supreme controller. Just like citizens and the government. Good citizenship means one who lives under the control of the government. Similarly, good person means one is God conscious and lives according to the instruction of God. So there is instruction of God, (coughing) we are presenting this all over the world. And they should give us some facilities? Yes. "We want to preach. Here also, if you give us facility, we can preach. That is after your interest." This one gentleman has already offered one house in Bangkok. He's put at our disposal, in the middle of the city, a very beautiful house. Oh, that is very nice. But now I'm wondering how should this should be managed, who should take charge of this project. No, we can send some men from India. Bangkok is not far away from India. If we get a living place, then we can find out. When there are rice thrown, the crows will come. If there is no rice, how the crows will come? This is the philosophy. (laughter) If there is living place, then many crows will come. So we can first go and see the situation and then contact our men in India. Yes, yes. Men will be supplied from India. What is his name? Send him some thanks. Yes, Mr. Boonsoong. I'll give it to you now. Jaya , very nice. He's a Hong Kong man? No, he is from Thailand. Oh, yes, Bangkok. And he's a multimillionaire. He owns approximately one third of all the land in Thailand. Oh! Very important man. Chairman of many big businesses. You have given books? He has received books. Where you met him? His former secretary is now a devotee in this temple. She is from Thailand. And when he came to visit her in Paris, she introduced me to him, and since then he has spoken about us to his family, to businessmen. Many big people in Thailand. People in Thailand are quite pious. Yes. They are Indian culture. Their original culture is Indian. It is called Siam (pronounces like Śyām ), Kṛṣṇa's name. And they have got the airplane, Garuda. Yes. Garuda Airlines. So they are devotees originally, all Kṛṣṇa devotees. The king is speaking Sanskrit. *Yes. It was known. It has been changed now. Formerly, (coughing) it was known as Syam state, Siam. Syam is the name of Kṛṣṇa. Whole state was named under Kṛṣṇa. So, and they manufacture very nice idol of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. They're accustomed. They have a very strong Buddhist influence there now. Huh? Buddhist. Later on, they became Buddhist, but originally they were Vaiṣṇava. So they will not make some objection if they are thinking we have come to preach Hinduism in a Buddhist country? It is not . . . don't establish Deity. Talk on philosophy. "God is the supreme controller." Yes. We accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God. Show in our books that we have got all respect for Buddha. We do not disrespect Lord Buddha, neither go against him. (coughing) Anyway, if we get one house to live and a supporter, a big supporter, then our position will be secure. And if our cause is honest, then nobody can check. He has said that first I should come and speak to the Prime Minister and then speak at the University, and then see the reaction, and then we can go to see the king and say that this has been the reaction at the universities. Yes. Do it organizedly. They understand French language? Yes, English and French. They are very close to Vietnam. They speak French. Very good. Take this opportunity. (coughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (end) Conversation A -- July 31, 1976, New Mayapur *Many scholars are appreciating more and more. And on the University of Edmonton, in Alberta, Canada, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he was a linguist, professor of linguistics. He's a very pious man, and he is writing a book with some other professor in the Religion department on the comparative study of bhakti in the Indian tradition and the Hebrew tradition. And he's using your books as his only source for the Indian tradition. So he ordered not only one set of all the books, but two sets of all your books. Three sets actually. He ordered one set of Bhāgavatams for his own personal library, then he ordered two sets for the University library—one for the reference section and one for the general section. So he ordered three sets. And when his book comes out, in the back they have a bibliography section, references, and he will give reference to all your books. He was wondering . . . he's writing this book about bhakti , and he said: "What is a good definition of bhakti for the Indian tradition?" So I showed him Nectar of Devotion , anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). He said that is very good, and he wrote it down and put it in his book. Till now, they took bhakti as a matter of sentiment. Religious science they did not know, all over the world. He said he's trying to show that by studying bhakti in Indian tradition and also in Hebrew tradition, he's . . . Bhakti is not achieved by studying. Bhakti stage is achieved by practice. That is the special significance of our institution, that we are engaging our men in practicing. Therefore they are getting knowledge—not by reading. He was saying there are certain social and economic conditions that need to be present before bhakti can come about. Bhakti can solve everything—social, economical, cultural, religious, everything. (coughing heavily) So Dr. Joseph saw all my books? *Every one he saw. We showed him some . . . he was very happy to see the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Yes, I offered him the post of editing. Now he's sorry. Now he's simply sitting in debt. (means: he feels he can't repay his debt to you) But he did not say no. He wanted to do conveniently. Then I thought, it will not be . . . (coughs) "When he will return, he'll do it." That is not possible. He gave me some of his books that he wrote. He gave me some to read. And actually the English in your books is much better than his books, so better he's not editing. It's coming out better. No, he's not a good English scholar. Actually, he speaks perfect French also. And he got his Ph.D. from the University of Paris. Paris or Dutch as well. He's been every place. He went to . . . in Paris he got in the Sorbonne, and also in Pondicherry they have one French Institute, and there he got his Ph.D. And also in Holland there is one very important man. So by his letters we can . . . many people will take our books. No, he's undoubtedly very great Sanskrit scholar. He had written some book how to make the sacred thread, like that. How many knots should be there, how many . . . (laughter) Smārta Brahmin. *Now he's written another book to show how his life is changing. His latest book was about the five chapters of the Dasama*-skanda , which is the rasa-līlā. That is his book now. Oh. So he's changing smārta , now he's turning different. No, he has no training in bhakti . *He said one nice thing. He said that without Jīva Gosvāmī's Ṣaṭ*-sandarbhas there's no question of understanding Bhāgavatam . Hmm? He made that statement. (coughing) I met him when he was in Delhi once. We were very inspired, in Delhi, that almost every college we went to, they already had your three books, and the librarians, they would remember. We would ask them, "When did you get these books?" They'd think, "Well, about ten, twelve years ago, some sannyāsī came. We purchased." So they remembered. They were . . . (indistinct) So now they took others? Now . . . we said that, "You've begun, this is only the beginning. You cannot have incomplete set." They said: "Yes, we cannot have incomplete," so they took the rest. And also that man, that Shastri, the Ministry of Education? That man Mr. Shastri, in the Ministry of Education, the Rātrī of Sanskrit- samsad , he bought fifty copies? Oh, yes. He's also, I think, taken fifty standing orders now to complete wherever he is. He is still there? No, he has shifted now. He's in Darbhanga. But his successor, he's taken. We just made copy, it is printed in your *Bhāgavatam* . So he made true copy on some paper, and he has two copies of the last order, and this is the balance of his subscription, so now he should take. That is Education Ministry. They're only giving the Sanskrit. They can take at least fifty copies of each. Yes. So he's doing that now. They gave me order, I dispatched by post, and if the acknowledgement received, I submitted my bill, they paid. We're going to find the list of which universities you sent to, because we only found . . . not that many. That will be a waste of time. (laughter) So many things I did not keep record. Even in Poona, they had, the Deccan College in Poona. They also had. We sent to them also. They also ordered balance. In Bombay also I supplied to so many colleges. And the Public Library. That Royal Asiatic Society. Ah. In Bombay they purchase all the books. We had to do a little negotiation with them, but they purchased everything. Then the Calcutta Royal Asiatic Society, they wrote us a letter, they said that, "These books are the best," the letter came like that, but that "we have no funds to purchase, so can you please send us free of charge?" They have no funds? Asiatic? They said like that. Maybe. Nowadays people are not interested in cultural societies. They are simply for belly. How to earn money, that's all. Śūdra mentality. The brāhmaṇa mentality is gone. In America also, people are not joining cultural classes of philosophy. Hayagrīva said that he has no job because nobody is taking English as literary study. Nobody's interested. They are taking to technology. Science. Science means how to make the motorcar wheel, that's all. This is their science. In America, the professors complain to us. When we try to sell them personal books, they should take books themselves, they say that the salary of a college professor in America is the same as the salary of a waiter in some hotel. That is the respect they are given. Sometimes they are called church mouse. Church mouse. A mouse in the church, what he'll eat? He's in a householder's place, a mouse is there, he can eat something. But church, nobody's eating there. Simply dust, that's all. (laughter) Church mouse. Any new mail? Stacks of it. Quite a lot. Oh. Where from? Want to go over it now? Shall we go over everything now? Yes. Jyotirmāyī is outside, and Yogeśvara. We can have them come in? Just fix on the light. Is now the right time to ask? She has some questions on gurukula . Is now okay? (indistinct) . . . has not come? They haven't come as yet. Yogeśvara has just come back from Italy. Yes. What is the news, Italy? *They've finished the preparation for the printing of the French edition of Kṛṣṇa Book and Śrī Upadeśāmṛta and the Italian Bhagavad*-gītā , and they should be ready within the next ten days. French language. *And Italian Bhagavad*-gītā is done. What is the political position of the Fascist and Communist? Very mixed up. They are called Christian Democrats. (laughs) They can manufacture so many. Fertile brain in the tract of deserted world. This world is desert, and they have got fertile brain. They call? The fertile land in the deserted land, in the desert, is called oasis. So similarly, these rascals, they have got fertile brain in the world of desert, but there is no happiness. But they have got fertile brain how to manufacture happiness. And māyā kicks on their face and baffles everything. This is the illusion. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā ( BG 7.14). They, the world is desert, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), but they have got fertile brain, how to become happy. And as soon as they make some arrangement, kicks on his face and broken. That's all. What do you think? Is it right? Sometimes you have got fertile brain. (laughter) This fertile brain, he will not accept. He'll be kicked out. Everything will be finished. If you want to be happy, then you have to go back home, back to Kṛṣṇa. That is the only way. Otherwise, your fertile brain will not help. What do you think, Jyotirmāyī? You are intelligent. I came to ask you some questions about the gurukula , because now if I don't ask them today . . . So gurukula means . . . find out that chapter, brahmacārī gurukule. 7.10 (background discussion about which verse) Vasan dānto guror hitam. (SB 7.12.1) The beginning of life is how to become cent percent obedient to guru . That is gurukula . That training should be given. The whole process is that our life will be successful when we strictly follow guru and Kṛṣṇa. Guru means Kṛṣṇa; *Kṛṣṇa means guru . Not Māyāvāda, but guru means one who follows Kṛṣṇa, he is guru . Sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ . So guru is directly God, sākṣād-hari. Sākṣād means "directly." So sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas , in every śāstra it is said the guru is God, Kṛṣṇa. So it is stated in the śāstra and it is accepted by authorities. Not that it is simply stated. Samasta-śāstrair, ukta . You understand little Sanskrit? *Some verses from Bhagavad*-gītā . *Huh? Ukta, ukta means "said." And sadbhiḥ , "by great personalities." Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas, tathā, and "accordingly"— tathā means "accordingly". Bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ , those who are actually in transcendental platform, they should accept it. So why? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva . . . it does not mean Māyāvādī, that he has become God. But kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya , he is the most confidential servant. He's therefore servant-God. He's God—servant-God. God is master-God. Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. So why he has become priya ? That is, Kṛṣṇa says personally, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69): nobody is dearer than him in the whole world. Why? Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidā . . . (BG 18.68), "who preaches this gospel of Bhagavad-gītā amongst My devotees." So the guru has got two business, he has to make devotee and teach them the principles of Bhagavad-gītā . Therefore he's so dear. Not that he has become God, not Māyāvādī philosophy. He's living entity, but because he acts very confidentially on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, therefore he's as good as God. This is going on. Not the Māyāvādī philosophy, that guru has become God. Guru is God, not become. He's servant-God. And Kṛṣṇa is master-God. So the success is that both the Gods, when one is accepted by both the Gods, then his life is success. Guru*-kṛṣṇa kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Therefore one has to fix his faith staunchly in the bona fide guru . So if one has got bona fide guru , and if he follows that bona fide guru , then his life is success. This is the process. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair . So gurukula means to teach how to become very, very faithful, cent percent faithful, to the bona fide guru . That is guru . So you have to teach like that—by behavior, by life, by action. That is gurukula . This sum and substance of . . . brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānto guror hitam. Where is that? We don't have the book. What you have got? Simply your face, that's all. I'll have to see your face. Why this book is not there? It's 7.3. There was only your copies are available at the moment, and we gave it to George Harrison. And you could not secure any more. The only other copy is in New York. Any other Bhāgavata ? Just see. Reference book must be always there. This is the principle of gurukula . Now from this platform, on this understanding, you have to organize. *You were saying that there are mainly three principles to learn: how to be obedient, how to know, read your books and be self*-controlled. So that's what I explained to the teacher, that they should keep that. *Guru says there are four principles to be followed. They should be taught in that way. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating, no intoxication. Guru says that you chant at least sixteen . . . that should be taught, learning, rise early in the morning, that should be taught. So whatever guru say, you have to teach them perfectly, from childhood—then there will be no deviation when they are grown-up. We have them chant now down there. When they chant japa , they chant very enthusiastically. So the teacher himself chants . . . *No, no. According to age, according to . . . but this is the principle. Gurukula means to learn how to become obedient, self*-controlled and act on behalf of guru . This is gurukula . Not to learn grammar very scholarly, grammarian. No, that is not gurukula . There are many thousand scholar —who cares for them? Put in the life. That is important. Our movement has drawn the attention of the world on account of life and the knowledge. They are finding the knowledge in the book and they are finding the practical application in life. That is the important thing. Books there are many, but the books as they are described, they are being followed. That is gurukula . Find out. Hmm? Yes? Guror hitam . So brahmacārī , a brahmacārī should live in the gurukula for the following purposes. The first is that he should be trained up how to control the senses. So that, if you teach any child from the childhood, he'll be trained up. In that case, that female children should be separated. I wanted to know also what should we do once they are sixteen, because you said they should be trained in a gurukula until they are sixteen. So once they are sixteen . . . *Once Sarasvatī said that, "We have no sex with woman." (laughter) So, innocent, she does not know. So that is, if they are kept separate, they remain innocent. And they are taught that all women should be addressed as mother. Whatever you get it, self*-control. And female children should be taught how to become faithful to the husband and to learn the arts of cooking, arts of painting—that should be their subject matter. Painting? *Yes. Sixty*-four arts, Rādhārāṇī did. Then She could control Kṛṣṇa. So after they have learned all the academics—reading, writing, all these . . . *Academic is ordinary, A*-B-C-D, that's all. Not very much. But these arts. They should learn how to cook nicely. And what should the boys be taught from ten to sixteen? *The principle is same, that when they grow up they learn the śāstra . The more they read, the more they learn. Then they become preacher, teacher. The grown*-up children, those who are fifteen, sixteen, they can teach five, six years old. Then they can take responsibility themselves. In this way. Elderly student . . . that is the way of Indian teaching, that there is one teacher, and how he's managing hundreds? That means there are groups. One who is elderly student, he's taking some beginners: "Write a or A like this." That he can teach. What he has learned, he can teach. Similarly, next group, next group. So in this way, one teacher can manage hundreds of students of different categories. This is organization. Not that "Everything I have to do. I cannot teach anybody to do it," that is not intelligence. Intelligence is that employ other to help you. That is intelligence. Not that "Oh, I was busy, I could not do it." Why? What about your assistant? Train assistant so that in your absence things can be done. So the elderly students, they should be . . . just Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He used to do that. When He was sixteen years old He could argue with Keśava Kāśmīrī, because He was practiced. And you explained that they should be . . . In this way, stage after stage, everyone should be expert. Everyone should be teacher and student. The boys, they should learn how also to cook? *Huh? I never said that. Why you are bringing that question? I said the girls should be. Cooking is not boy's business. But cooking is not very difficult art. If they want, the boys can . . . (coughs) There are so many. In the Bhakti*-rasāmṛta sindhu it is stated how Rādhārāṇī was qualified. So these things should be taught to the girls. If the girls are taught to give service to the husband to the greatest satisfaction, there will be no disagreement. Can the older boys be trained in a particular kind of devotional service? For example, Press work? *Oh, yes. Everything is devotional. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). There are varieties. We are not Māyāvādī, impersonalist, " Aham brahmasmi —finished, all business." It is not like that. So whatever business is going on in our movement, everything should be taught according to the capacity, boy or girls, it doesn't matter. Some department is suitable for the boy, some department are suitable for the girl. In this way, they should be trained up. But everyone should be trained up to give service. That is gurukula . (coughing) And brahmacārī , this sex impulse should be controlled. That ruins the whole character. Our big, big sannyāsīs are becoming victimized. So that is the danger. Woman is good, man is good; when they combine together, bad. This is the material world. Both of them are good, but when they combine together, they are bad. This is material world. In the spiritual world, there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore it is always good. Everyone is part and parcel of God, so they are good. In the spiritual world, they combine together, it becomes bad . . . in the material world. In the spiritual world there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore they are always good. So you have to train like that. In the spiritual world there are very, very beautiful woman, thousand, thousands times. Here, in the heavenly planets, they are calculated the best perfectional body of the woman. But in the spiritual world, still further. But there is no attraction of sex. They are working together, serving together, everything. But the sex attraction, there is no. They are elevated so much in the service of the Lord . . . sex attraction is a kind of pleasure. *So there are different types of pleasure. Here, if somebody, good foodstuff is there, and—that is also another sense pleasure—and by the time one beautiful woman is canvassing, "Now, come and let us enjoy," he will give up this good food. He'll go for sex, because he will think this is better than that. So one pleasure is rejected if one is engaged in better pleasure. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). So in the spiritual world the service of the Lord is so pleasing that they can neglect this sex pleasure. That is spiritual world. They have no attachment for sex pleasure. Yadāvadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāmānudyata bata nārī-saṅgame bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭu (Yāmunācārya). That is spiritual world. When one spits on the sex pleasure, that means he is elevated in spiritual life. So in the material world that is not possible. But by training, by knowledge, one can be elevated. That is gurukula . So these are the general principles. Now arrange. I was thinking about that, that because the girls are trained like brahmacārīnis also in the gurukula , they should be also kept very, very simple, just like the little boys, brahmacārīs . No, our life is simple. We don't want luxury. We don't want luxury, but as we are accustomed in so many ways, as far as possible. But life should be very simple. To increase unnecessary things unnecessarily, that is material life. I was thinking in that way—simple clothes, no jewels, just like the boys, simple . . . *Don't say "no." But give a taste for the good, then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," then he'll . . . they will rebel. The four "no's," that is very difficult. Still they are breaking. No illicit sex, they are breaking. But if they develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this will be automatically "no." So don't bring many "no's," but give them positive life. Then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," that will be a struggle. This is the psychology. (coughing) Positive engagement is devotional service. So if they are attracted by devotional service, other things will be automatically "no." Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Just like Ekādaśī day. Ekādaśī day, we observe fasting. And there are many patients in the hospital, they are also fasting, but there is no "No." They'll, within heart, "If I get, I shall eat, I shall eat." But those who are devotee, they are voluntarily "no." The same fasting is going on for the devotees and the hospital patient. And that "no" and this "no," there is difference. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. It is not meant for the mass of people, but at least if we keep a section of people ideal to the human society, they will be guided. At the present moment, there is no ideal section. Everyone is rascal, demons, rogue, everything. There is no ideal character. All politician, scientist, leader they are all drunkards and woman*-hunters. So what they can lead? There is no ideal man in the society. The politicians are giving big, big speech in the United Nation. They'll go to the same hotel where another debauchee is dancing and drinking. That's all. That is his character. Is it not? So what he will do? He can give very big speech, that's all. What is his character? There is no ideal character in the present human society. Do they appreciate our these restriction? Our restrictions? Yes, they are impressed. They sometimes write about the gurukula that we are treating roughly the children by making them so austere. But every time they show the picture, the children are always happy. *(coughing) They have standardized their happiness on this principle—illicit sex, meat*-eating, gambling. That is the standard. And if you deny that, they say: "Oh, it is impossible. This is the primary principles of life." Yes. Such a big man like Ronaldsay, he said: "Oh, it is impossible." He was a big man, philosopher, very nice gentleman—still he said: "Oh, it is impossible." (to Jyotirmāyī) You have any . . . Yes. You were saying that the children should learn these three, geography and these things, and I wanted to know if they should also learn what they call biology, that is how the body is working, what are the bones and blood and . . . What is the use? What is the use? Just to have some general knowledge . . . Simply waste of time. Simply waste of time. Even the basic of this? What is the basic? What you will know by that? Biology is going on, you study or not study. You are eating, it is transforming into blood, everyone knows. And how he's transforming into blood, what is the use? You were saying they should learn geography and history, just for general knowledge. That is because you have to go from America to India. You must know. (laughter) You have to calculate "Two plus two equal to four," a little mathematics. But this biology and this "logy," they are useless. There is no necessity. What you'll gain by understanding biology? Even one who knows biology, the medical man, he gives a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." "Perhaps." He's not sure. So what is the use? First of all he'll take one ounce blood from you, and they send, this station, that station, now making a chart, then he'll give a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." And this is going on. Even the biggest pathologist, medical man, cannot guarantee that whatever medicine he is giving is you . . . (break) We are not independent. Some group doctors? Some portion of the devotees, medicals knowledge? There is no harm. But when medical men are available by paying something, why should you waste your time? There are so many things we purchase, you pay for them. Not that we have to learn everything. So many things we have to do. Does it mean that you have to learn everything? There's lots of doctors, but there's no Brahmins , devotees. Yes. So the principle is, no, don't waste time. If one has already learned medical science, all right, bring him to some service. But not that our men has to go to the medical college to learn medical science. That is not the point. So because we're in the country, I was taking the children in the land here and teaching them how to recognize the different plants. Is that useful, or should I not do that? Different plants? Plants, yes. Here we have so many different plants growing, some medical plants, some that can be eaten. Is there any use? No. Different plants, that is botanical study; *that has also no utilization. But you can teach them, "Just see, this plant is coming from earth. The earth is the mother of this plant." These things you can convince them. Is it not a fact? The grass is coming, the tree is coming, and the animal eating grass. Then the animal is coming. The man is eating food grains, then man is coming. So originally the earth is the mother, feeding everyone. Is there any denial? What do you think? So earth is the mother of all living entities, convince them. So all living entities are children. Mother earth is the mother. The father? Where is father, find out. Everyone has got idea, father, mother and children. Children are there. The mother is there. Where is the father? If somebody says: "I have not seen the father. How can I recognize father?" that does not mean . . . because the mother is there, because the children are there, there must be father. If you do not know, try to know it from your mother, from your superior—from Veda*-mātā . You have to know from the Vedas . So at that young age they can very easily develop faith in Kṛṣṇa and guru . *Yes. Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā. *That's all. That study will be nice. Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ. Just like father gives the seed, similarly, Kṛṣṇa give the seed. The seed, when pushed into the womb of the mother and properly nourished, a rose plant comes out. This plant comes out. The seed is there. It is very easy. The father injects the seed within the womb of the mother, and the childs come out. Similarly, whatever is coming out from the earth, the seed-giving father is Kṛṣṇa. And when the seed is pushed within the womb of the mother, then the plant is coming, and everything. This nature's law is going on. Where is the necessity of understanding more than this? We understand the mother is pregnant. Now how she has been, how the child is growing, that is not under your control. It is going on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27), immediately it is in hand of the nature. Even if you study, you cannot understand how things are arranged—the intestine is joined to the navel of the child and the food is supplied, how it is mechanical . . . do you know everything? Can anyone do? Can anyone understand? But things are there. That is being done by prakṛtiḥ . Even if you study, you cannot understand. So best thing is to understand that it is being done by nature under the instruction of Supreme Lord. Let us chant Hare Kṛṣṇa instead of studying these . . . there are many students, many botanists, many . . . they, vaguely they are studying, and they have no understanding of Kṛṣṇa. They're denying, rather, the father. The child has come into existence without father. This is their knowledge. So instead of becoming such a fool and rascal, it is better not to study. I also thought of a way to help the children remember the *Kṛṣṇa Book* stories easier. It was . . . you started that long time ago with Madhupuri, you asked her to make the *Kṛṣṇa Book* into poem. That was long time ago in New York. Then she didn't do it . . . *Kṛṣṇa Book* is not difficult to be understood by . . . I was thinking if we make into poem and put music and they sing it, then they sing it they can remember . . . That you can do, to make it understandable easily. It is already easy. If you want to make more easy, then do that. Okay. You also allowed . . . you said that some parents can keep their children with them and teach themselves. *You follow that, brahmacārī guru*-kule vasan, that I've already explained. That should be done. Don't bring any new thing, imported ideas. That will not be helpful. It will be encumbrance. "My experiment with truth"—Gandhi's movement. Truth is truth. "Experiment" means you do not know what is truth. It is a way of life. Everything is stated there, try to train them. Simple thing. We are not going to teach biology or chemistry. They are not going to . . . our students are not going to. Our students should be fit for teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By their character, by their behavior, by their knowledge, that is wanted. Biologists, chemists, physicists and mathematicians there are hundreds and thousands. We are not going to waste our time that gurukula should produce a great grammarian, a great geologist, biologist. Don't want that. There are many other educational institutes. If you can get a good driver of your car, so what is the use of waste your time to learn driving? Is it not? If you have got important business, you can do that. Why should you waste your time to learn driving? Better employ one driver, pay him some fare. You once said in Vṛndāvana that the Marwaris, they don't bother going to school because they can make a lot of money by sitting by the phone and just pay a few rupees a day and any educated fool can do the work. *Yes, they do that. They are employing in their factories big, big chemist, big, big physicist, engineer and so on, but they do not bother. They are paying thirty thousand rupees per month salary, Birla. Expert, imported from foreign countries. But their sons are never troubled. (coughing) They know how to utilize that worker of thirty thousand rupees per month and to earn thirty lakhs from him. Why shall he waste his time? He knows how to . . . they earn. They pay a man thirty thousand and through him earn thirty lakhs . Actually, in order to make a balanced society, the varṇāśrama*-dharma is very important, cooperation. So these things are meant for the śūdras. Brāhmaṇas are not meant for this. You once told me that a brāhmaṇa must know how to do everything perfectly so that he can teach others. That may be, you may be a teacher, but you'll remain only a worker. That is another thing. Just like Dronācārya, he taught, he remained a teacher. So we can become a teacher of a particular subject matter, but that does not mean you should be worker. Still, there are many professors, they are teacher; *they are not worker. But if the teachers are available, why you should become a teacher? Let them teach. We have to save our time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. After all, this, in the modern world they have invented so many varieties of occupation unnecessarily, to develop economic condition. Is it not? But our philosophy is that you cannot develop your economic condition, then you are destined to suffer or enjoy. So one should not waste his time for so*-called development of economic condition. He should utilize his time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which was not possible in any other form of life. When we had cat's and dog's life, tree's life, we could not do that, development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now we have got human form of life, we should fully utilize it for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why should we waste our time for economic development? Economic development is not possible. Then every work, every city, they are trying to develop this economic condition, but they're simply struggling. Why they word it of "Struggle for existence" is there? It is not possible. Why there are varieties of social position? Everyone could come on the same standard. That is not possible. Anywhere you go, the three classes of men—upper class, middle class and lower class—is there. Is there any country where there is no these three classes, only the upper class? Is there any country? No. Then what is the use? (coughing) Anywhere you'll go, you'll find this upper class, (coughing) middle class and lower class. When I . . . in the beginning, I thought that America, everyone is richer class. So when I came, I saw the three classes are already there. The lower class, although the country has good facilities not to become lower class, still, voluntarily they are hippies, lower class. They are lying on the street. Although he has got very good opportunity to become first class, but he is lying on the street. Why? What is the answer? British Empire, London, the one is lying on the bench. New York, lying on the bench. There is no sufficient clothing. Why? Actually, he can live very comfortably, but why he's living in that condition? What is the answer? It's his nature. *No, he has to live in that way. That is his destiny. You cannot change it by artificial ways. Even if he has got all the facilities, he will have to live like that. That is nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅgo 'sya sad*-asad janma yoniṣu (BG 13.22). This is . . . so therefore there is no use of so-called improvement. And you cannot do it. This is a fact. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovido. Find out this verse. Na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ . Your standard of happiness and distress must be there, because you are destined by the laws of nature. You have to suffer although you are born in America. In New York you can get very comfortable life there; *still, you have lie down on bench, "Lie down." Although you are born of a rich man's family, you have to become hippies: "Lie down here." Who can check this? What is that law. Do they know it? But there is a law. There will be a first class, second class, third class, fourth class. You cannot check it. Huh? That New York City, so cared for. Nasty road, streets. And always, every moment— dung*-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung, gu-gu-gu-gu-gu-gu-gu —fire. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka . Fire is blazing. Despite all arrangement, fire is blazing. How can you stop it? Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, saṁsāra-biṣānale, dibaniśi hiya jvale (Hari Hari Biphale 2). The blazing fire of poison is always going on. Taribāre nā kāinu upāya. And one has to make ways how to get out of this fire. That is intelligence. Read that. "Persons who are actually intelligent and philosophically inclined should endeavor only for that purposeful end which is not obtainable even by wandering from the topmost planet (Brahmaloka) down to the lowest planet (Pātāla). As far as happiness derived from sense enjoyment is concerned, it can be obtained automatically in course of time, just as in course of time we obtain miseries, even though we do not desire them." This is philosophy. What is the purport? *"Every man everywhere is trying to obtain the greatest amount of sense enjoyment for various endeavors. Some of them are busy engaged in trade, industry, economic development, political supremacy, etc., and some of them are engaged in fruitive work to become happy in the next life by attaining higher planets. It is said that in the moon the inhabitants are fit for greater sense enjoyment by drinking soma*-rasa , and the Pitrloka is obtained by good charitable work. So there are various programs for sense enjoyment, either during this life or in the life after death." *Such a pleasing planet, and these rascals say there is no life. The moon is described everywhere, the most pleasing planet. Actually, when there is moon in the sky, how it is pleasing. So that planet is meant for the high*-class pious persons, and they get their life for ten thousands of years. They live very comfortably, drink soma-rasa. These are the description we get from śāstra . And these rascals say it is desert. And we have to believe them. And practically we see how pleasing it is. As soon as the moon planet is there, the whole atmosphere becomes pleasing. And it is desert. And we have to believe these rascal scientists and disregard the description of the śāstra . What do you think? Is that very good intelligence? No. We disregard the statement of Vyāsadeva, and we have to accept the statement of a rascal drunkard. (laughter) We are not so unfortunate. So unfortunate, they can believe that. We cannot believe. Now they have published pictures of Mars. Let them do that, befool others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). Because others, they are blind, this blind man, whatever he says, they believe. They will say, "Perhaps ten millions of years ago there was life, perhaps." These things are going on. But we know every planet is full of living entity. There is regular life and there are streets. The streets are paved with pearls, corals, in Svargaloka. We have got information. And what is their information? Scratching some sand and bring it, that's all. As if sand is not available. But we give information there are planets where the pavements are with pearls. Go and bring some pearls. There is the ocean of milk. Bring some milk from there. And then we shall understand that you are making some research. Simply all over the universe dry sand? And here the population is increasing. Just see. We have to believe all this. Everything is by nature vacant, and all people and animals are here. And we have to believe that. Hmm. Read it. They are exposing more and more about their nonsensical scientific inquiry. "Some are trying to reach the moon or other planets by some mechanical arrangement, for they are very anxious to get into such planets without doing good work. But it is not to happen. By the law of the Supreme, different places are meant for different grades of living beings according to the work they might have performed. By good work only, as prescribed in the scriptures, one can obtain birth in a good family, opulence, good education and good bodily features. We see also that even in this life one obtains a good education or money or bodily beauty. Similarly, in our next birth we get such desirable positions only by good work. Otherwise it would not so happen that two persons born in the same place at the same time are seen differently placed according to the previous work. But all such material positions are not permanent. The positions in the topmost Brahmaloka and in the lowest Pātāla are also changeable according to our own work. The philosophically inclined person must not be tempted by such changeable positions. He should try to get into the permanent life of bliss and knowledge where he will not be forced to come back again to the miserable material world, either in this or that planet. Miseries and mixed happiness are two features of material life, and they are obtained in Brahmaloka and in other lokas also. They are obtained in the life of the demigods and also in the life of the dogs and hogs. The miseries and mixed happiness of all living beings are only of different degree in quality, but no one is free from the miseries of birth, death, old age and disease. Similarly, everyone has his destined happiness also. No one can get more or less of these things simply by personal endeavors. Even if they are obtained, they can be lost again. One should not, therefore, waste time with these flimsy things, but one should only endeavor to go back to Godhead. That should be the mission of everyone's life." *That is our position. We should not waste a single moment for so*-called material things, happiness. Best save time and utilize it for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all right? Any more? Yes, and just one more. Huh? Because you were saying that the parents can keep their children and teach them themselves, like Arundhatī is teaching Aniruddha. So does it mean that the parents can . . . He complained that, "My boy is not being properly . . ." So I said that, "You teach your son." And she can keep him and teach him all the time? Until he's older and so on? *Yes. Yes. Yes. That is the duty of the father and mother. Along with that, he can teach others also. (coughing) These things are to be organized. But some way or other, our students should be given education and spiritual life, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Individually, collectively, somehow or other. The principle is laid down there, brahmacārī guru*-kule vasan dānto guror-hitam . That's the beginning. Everything is there, we have to simply follow. We haven't got to manufacture anything. That is waste of time. Whatever is there, you follow. Is that all right? Yes. Thank you. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) *. . . hand*-loomed silk. Thailand silk. (coughing) Yes. He has invited me to go to Thailand to meet the Prime Minister in October. Oh, if there is interview, you must go. Yes. Perhaps you would like to tell me on what level I should present our movement. *On the level of Bhagavad*-gītā . God is the supreme controller, and we have to learn how to remain peacefully under the supreme controller. Just like citizens and the government. Good citizenship means one who lives under the control of the government. Similarly, good person means one is God conscious and lives according to the instruction of God. So there is instruction of God, (coughing) we are presenting this all over the world. And they should give us some facilities? Yes. "We want to preach. Here also, if you give us facility, we can preach. That is after your interest." This one gentleman has already offered one house in Bangkok. He's put at our disposal, in the middle of the city, a very beautiful house. Oh, that is very nice. But now I'm wondering how should this should be managed, who should take charge of this project. No, we can send some men from India. Bangkok is not far away from India. If we get a living place, then we can find out. When there are rice thrown, the crows will come. If there is no rice, how the crows will come? This is the philosophy. (laughter) If there is living place, then many crows will come. So we can first go and see the situation and then contact our men in India. Yes, yes. Men will be supplied from India. What is his name? Send him some thanks. Yes, Mr. Boonsoong. I'll give it to you now. Jaya , very nice. He's a Hong Kong man? No, he is from Thailand. Oh, yes, Bangkok. And he's a multimillionaire. He owns approximately one third of all the land in Thailand. Oh! Very important man. Chairman of many big businesses. You have given books? He has received books. Where you met him? His former secretary is now a devotee in this temple. She is from Thailand. And when he came to visit her in Paris, she introduced me to him, and since then he has spoken about us to his family, to businessmen. Many big people in Thailand. People in Thailand are quite pious. Yes. They are Indian culture. Their original culture is Indian. It is called Siam (pronounces like Śyām ), Kṛṣṇa's name. And they have got the airplane, Garuda. Yes. Garuda Airlines. So they are devotees originally, all Kṛṣṇa devotees. The king is speaking Sanskrit. *Yes. It was known. It has been changed now. Formerly, (coughing) it was known as Syam state, Siam. Syam is the name of Kṛṣṇa. Whole state was named under Kṛṣṇa. So, and they manufacture very nice idol of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. They're accustomed. They have a very strong Buddhist influence there now. Huh? Buddhist. Later on, they became Buddhist, but originally they were Vaiṣṇava. So they will not make some objection if they are thinking we have come to preach Hinduism in a Buddhist country? It is not . . . don't establish Deity. Talk on philosophy. "God is the supreme controller." Yes. We accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God. Show in our books that we have got all respect for Buddha. We do not disrespect Lord Buddha, neither go against him. (coughing) Anyway, if we get one house to live and a supporter, a big supporter, then our position will be secure. And if our cause is honest, then nobody can check. He has said that first I should come and speak to the Prime Minister and then speak at the University, and then see the reaction, and then we can go to see the king and say that this has been the reaction at the universities. Yes. Do it organizedly. They understand French language? Yes, English and French. They are very close to Vietnam. They speak French. Very good. Take this opportunity. (coughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (end) Conversation A -- August 2, 1976, New Mayapur The whole country could be like this if everybody was Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Very peacefully you can live. In the city you go, thousands of cars are running— ror*-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror. What is called? Flyway, expressway, downway. Every ten yards stop for the light. (laughter) How artificial life. And with all these things, if people would have been happy, all right. But they're not happy, in spite of all this advancement. Yes. Simply increasing their miseries. That's all. Problems. The bigger the buildings, the more anxiety they're in. Not only many cars, they new construct, new roads, new . . . increasing business, in the hope of happiness. But there is no happiness. Happiness is the last consideration. They are thinking that, "In this way we shall be happy." Get more money. *First of all, paved way, then flyway, then another flyway, then another flyway. In this way. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ ( SB 7.5.31). They're always striving for happiness, that's all. They never achieve it, they never get there. No. That is called māyā . Just like the animal is running after the mirage, water, but there is no water. He simply runs until he dies. That's all. This is going on. *Dogs on four wheels. (laughs) It was so nice sitting underneath the tree there, chanting. I was thinking this is what we could do forever, twenty*-four hours. No need to do anything else. Yes. (pause) Prospective place, this. Very future prospect. Oh, yes. We're buying these big properties now. We don't have so many devotees, but we know just even in five years they're going to be packed. Hmm? *Maybe now we don't have so many devotees for all these big places we're buying, but even just in five years or ten years they'll be full up. We'll have to expand more and more. Your idea for fifty percent for books, fifty percent for buildings, it's very wonderful. I remember in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta you said that the book distribution and the establishment of temples should go parallel lines, side by side. Going on. Up to date, to my satisfaction, it is going on. If you're satisfied, then we know it's going to be successful. But they fight amongst themselves, the GBCs. Hmm, that's the problem. I did not see Harikeśa. He was there. Oh, he was there? Yes. He's been feeling a bit ill today. Oh. This is thyme herbs? No. This is the seed. Oh, them. They grow it in the garden. The first, what you got, that was grown here. Hmm? Those twigs? They were grown here in the garden. Oh. (pause) Would you like anything tonight? A piece of Chyavana Prash ? (Harikeśa enters) What is that? This boy brought this. I wanted to just ask you if this was any good or not. This is nutmeg oil. This is the oil I was telling you about. *And this is All*-Brand . . . Axe Brand Universal Oil, supposed to be for massages or something. Chinese? (indistinct) . . . this is Chinese. It's got different . . . says menthol crystal, peppermint oil, eucalyptol oil, menthol salicilate, oil of lavender, chloroform BP, camphor powder and white oil. What is for? Supposed to be for massaging. It's supposed to help the muscles. And what is this? It's got the cap on it. Nutmeg oil. This is the one I was telling you about. Take the cap off. They're all selling all this? No, this is not ours. Rādhe-Śyāma dāsa brought this. It was brought by one of the devotees from . . . Thailand, was it? *He was in Kuala*-Lumpur. He says he bought it from a Buddhist temple, big Buddhist temple. *Kuala*-Lumpur? There is a big Buddhist temple I know, I went there. He said in a letter, he just wrote a little letter to you, that . . . you laid a cornerstone on some temple? About three, four years ago? *Kuala*-Lumpur? Yes. It's finished. It cost a million dollars. And he says this man wants to give it to us. Oh, something, that gentleman . . . It's a rather nice letter. Written by him? No, this boy who was there. I'll bring him tomorrow. So we can take it. Yes. This is nice idea he has got. He has spent millions of dollars? One million on the temple. Oh? How he got the money? I don't know. Maybe he was rich man. This was made in Penang. Hmm? Penang. Penang? Yes. Penang also I visited. I stayed with one Indian gentleman. His wife made very nice kachorī . It doesn't matter wherever you go around the world . . . *They asked: "What you want to eat?" "If you can, you make first*-class kachorī ." That is from my childhood. My friends also did it. They'd make the first-class kachorīs in my youthhood. I am fond of kachorī. Kachorī is made first class in Mathurā, Agra and Mathurā. Very, very nice. The kachorī is being made, hundreds of customers waiting. At shops, there was many shops, waiting for purchasing. And as soon as it comes out of the pan, immediately sold. There is no question of waiting. They make so spices. That is India's craftmanship. Nobody will starve. If you have no business, he'll prepare something palatable and people will purchase, all over India. There's so many people on the railway station selling. There's no question of starvation for want of money. Anywhere sit down and do something palatable, and people will purchase. So your livelihood will go on. Pakorā, kachorī, jalebī , anything. You make some palatable, people are fond of eating some palatable things. That is their hobby. In Allahabad, there was a brāhmaṇa . I had my business, and he was neighborhood, he was living. So in the morning, the husband and wife would go to take bath in the Ganges. They would very nicely take bath, and while coming they will purchase some ingredients and then come home. The husband will perform pūjā , etcetera, and the wife will prepare many nice preparations— barā, pakorī, puchka (Indian snack), this, that. Then he'll take his meals, rest awhile, and in the evening he will sit down—he was sitting just in front of my shop—about four or five o'clock. All the preparations his wife had made whole day, and the small shop. And the university students will come up to night. Ten o'clock, he'll finish. Nothing will remain. Everything will be . . . and he'll make at least ten rupees' profit, minimum. In those days, 1925, in those days ten rupees means nowadays quite . . . at least fifty rupees. So, and living very happily. Living humbly as a brāhmaṇa , he was having his pūjā , going to the Ganges, taking bath, husband and wife, in the morning, and the wife's business is to prepare and his business was to sell. So they'll make at least ten, fifteen rupees' profit daily, very prosperous, living peacefully, husband and wife. There are many such family. The . . . if wife is very good, then his home is very nice. They cannot be unhappy at any circumstances. Dampatyoḥ kalaho nāsti tatra śrīḥ svayam āgataḥ. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. When there is full agreement between husband and wife, cooperation, then the goddess of fortune comes there without application. You haven't got to ask goddess of fortune, "Please come and help me." She'll come automatically. This is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. There are so many things in India culture for becoming happy and advancing towards the goal of life. Now I am appreciating for more and more, seeing the whole world, what is India's culture. Formerly I was thinking, "It is custom. To become faithful wife, this is custom." But when I come outside I see what is wife and what is faithful wife. In India, still, in the village, even there is fight between husband, wife, the wife is faithful. Still. Completely dependent on husband. The husband also, in spite of fighting, he is always careful that the wife does not get any inconvenience. It was the culture; now it is breaking. You can close that. In material world, for peaceful life there must be peaceful condition between the husband and wife. Everyone requires wife, everyone requires husband. (aside) Inside also do. Sex is necessary, so make the condition of sex very peacefully. Why disturbed? Make the condition that there will be . . . it is necessary. As eating is necessary, sleeping is necessary, for ordinary man, so sex is also necessary. So make a condition so that nothing will be disturbed, and in undisturbed condition of mind execute spiritual advancement. This is Indian civilization. Aim is spiritual advancement. And to make condition favorable, there are so many things. So unless we get favorable condition . . . here in the Western countries there is no favorable condition. First of all, they have no idea of spiritual life, the goal of life, neither there is favorable condition. And gradually things are becoming degrading. On my last tour in Chicago I saw. In three weeks she has twice divorced, one lady advertised. You remember it? I wasn't there that time. I remember. You were there, yes. Is that life? How they can be happy if this is the condition? (pause) So what further advancement? In reference? Tehran. Oh, your tickets are definitely booked on the nonstop flight. I finally managed to . . . . . . take the ticket. Oh, we have got ticket. The reservation, I mean . . . and if for some reason we can't get on that flight, we have reservations on another flight that arrives at . . . arrives four hours later. That doesn't matter. It changes. It leaves earlier and gets there four hours later. Was lunch all right today? Lunch? Your lunch was all right? Hmm? Was lunch all right? Prasādam ? The potatoes and karelā , it should be fried. Yes, it was fried. I fried it with the cover on. No, not in the beginning. Fry it, and if it is still hard, then . . . Then put the cover on. Oh, all right. Yes, not from beginning. Oh, I made a mistake. If you cover from the beginning, the water which is already there, they will be coming out. And the idea is the water should be taken away. Then it will be tasteful. Still, it was good. Should I cook if I still have this fever tomorrow? Eh? Right now I have a fever. No, don't cook. So if I have a fever I shouldn't cook for you? It's unhealthy for you, or . . .? Huh? It won't bother me so much, but if it's unhealthy for you . . . No, no, I have no objection. But if you have got fever, why shall you? There are so many others. They can cook. I cannot tolerate being sick any more. The body means sickness. The body itself is sickness. In illusion I think I come back here, I get healthy. In illusion I think if I leave India and come here I will get healthy. But I come here, I also get sick. I go there, I also get sick. (laughs) You seem to be much better now. Yes, little better. (pause) (devotees leave) *Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . thinking of how to utilize the whole land. The situation is very good, good prospect. I want that self*-independent here, as far as possible. But you have got enough materials. With woods you can make cottages. Then land becomes clear, then utilize it. Cows. Cows, so many things. Free from all anxieties, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Life is meant for simply chanting. This should be the motto. But because we have got this body, we have to maintain it. That much. Otherwise, we have no ambition to become a very big man in this material world, enjoy it. This is all false, useless. He'll become a big man, and one day death comes and kicks him out. Just see. So these are all false attempts. It has no meaning. The meaningful life is, so long we live, become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. And tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). That is wanted. Give facility to the people. Here is very nice arrangement. Now make plan how to utilize. You have got enough land. You can utilize for supplying the necessities of life. Yes. It's a very wonderful place. Yes. We can get many wonderful places like this all over the world. But they have not been taught how to utilize them. I think in one year they have done nicely. They have built a greenhouse and planted all the cultivated land. No, they are working hard, there is no doubt about it. And the temple also, Deity worship and everything. Oh, yes. Things are going nicely. There is no doubt about it. And children should be given that much education—to read and write and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *The devotees are talking how nice it was to sit outside with you and chant and hear you speak tonight. I remember the last time I was in New Vrindavan many years ago, when I first became a devotee. You were sitting outside, giving some lecture, series of lectures on Vyāsadeva and the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Yes. No, I like this life, from my very childhood. And on our roof there were trees, er, plants, flower plants, and . . . my grandmother, she . . . we, all grandchildren used to water it. So downstairs we took water in, what is called? A jhāri ? Sprinkling can? Ah, sprinkling can. We all grandchildren, we were about half a dozen. So we took very much pleasure in watering. But my special tendency was that along with the plants, I, with the bushes, I'll sit down. My tendency. And I'll sit down for hours. I liked that, in my childhood. In my maternal uncle's house also, I was doing that. As soon as I find some bush, I make a sitting place. It's hard to see how people could not be attracted to such a nice life. Yes. And more and more people are coming. They'll come. First of all, this life is not for every man. Most fortunate man. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. Kona. Kona means someone; *it is not for everyone. Kona bhāgyavān . Find out this verse, Nineteenth Chapter, Madhya*-līlā. (devotees look for verse) Brahmāṇḍa bhramite ? *Brahmāṇḍa bhramite. Guru*-kṛṣṇa. Find out. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā pāya. *Guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja . Oh. "According to their karma , all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service." Yes. This is not for everyone. *There's a nice purport. Should I do the purport? "When we speak of brahmāṇḍa , we refer to the whole universe, or to the cluster of many millions of universes. In all universes, there are innumerable planets and innumerable living entities upon those planets in the air and in the water. There are millions and trillions of living entities everywhere, and they are engaged by māyā in suffering and enjoying the results of their fruitive activity life after life. This is the position of the materially conditioned living entities. Out of many of these living entities, if one is actually fortunate, he comes in contact with a bona fide spiritual master by Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart, and if one desires something, Kṛṣṇa fulfills one's desire. If the living entity by chance or fortune comes in contact with the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and wishes to associate with that movement, Kṛṣṇa, who is situated in everyone's heart, gives him the chance to meet a bona fide spiritual master. This is called guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāda . Kṛṣṇa is prepared to bestow His mercy upon all living entities, and as soon as a living entity desires the Lord's mercy, the Lord immediately gives him an opportunity to meet a bona fide spiritual master. Such a person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master. He is helped from within by Kṛṣṇa and from without by the spiritual master. Both are prepared to help the sincere living being become free from this material bondage." *"How one can become this fortunate can be seen in the life of Nārada Muni. In his previous life he was born of a maidservant. Although he was not born into a prestigious position, his mother was fortunately engaged in rendering service to some Vaiṣṇavas. When these Vaiṣṇavas were resting during the cāturmāsya period, the boy Nārada took the opportunity to engage in their service. Taking compassion upon the boy, the Vaiṣṇavas offered him the remnants of their food. By serving them and obeying their orders, the boy became the object of sympathy for the Vaiṣṇavas, and, by the Vaiṣṇavas' unknown mercy, he gradually became a pure devotee. In the next life he was Nārada Muni, the most exalted of Vaiṣṇavas and the most important guru and ācārya of Vaiṣṇavas. Following in the footsteps of Nārada Muni, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is rendering service to humanity by giving everyone a chance to come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. If one is fortunate, he becomes intimately related with this movement. Then, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one's life becomes successful. Everyone has dormant kṛṣṇa*-bhakti, love for Kṛṣṇa, and in the association of good devotees that love is revealed. As stated in Caitanya-caritāmṛta :" *"Dormant devotional service to Kṛṣṇa is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , dormant love for Kṛṣṇa is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151)." Then? Then? No, it is not finished? No, this is finished. Next verse? "When a person receives the seed of devotional service, he should take care of it by becoming a gardener and sowing the seed in his heart. If he waters the seed gradually by the process of śravaṇa and kīrtana (hearing and chanting), the seed will begin to sprout." *Purport: "To live with devotees or to live in a temple means to associate with the śravaṇa*-kīrtana process. Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution of śravaṇa-kīrtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who engaged in the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity. However, one should not falsely imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura and abandon Deity worship just to try to engage in śravaṇa-kīrtana . This is not possible for neophyte devotees." *"The word guru*-prasāda indicates that the spiritual master is very merciful in bestowing the boon of devotional service upon the disciple. That is the best possible gift the spiritual master has to offer. Those with a background of pious life are eligible to receive life's supreme benefit, and to bestow this benefit, the Supreme Personality of Godhead sends His representative to impart His mercy. Endowed with the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the spiritual master distributes the mercy to those who are elevated and pious. Thus the spiritual master trains his disciples to render devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called gurukṛpā . It is kṛṣṇa-prasāda , Kṛṣṇa's mercy, that He sends a bona fide spiritual master to the deserving disciple. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, one meets the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of the spiritual master, the disciple is fully trained in the devotional service of the Lord." *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja means 'the seed of devotional service.' Everything has an original cause, or seed. For any idea, program, plan or device, there is first of all the contemplation of the plan, and that is called bīja , or the seed. The methods, rules and regulations by which one is perfectly trained in devotional service constitute the bhakti-latā-bīja, or the seed of devotional service. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received from the spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Other seeds are called anyābhilāṣa-bīja, karma-bīja and jñāna-bīja . If one is not fortunate enough to receive the bhakti-latā-bīja from the spiritual master, he instead cultivates the seeds of karma-bīja, jñāna-bīja or political and social or philanthropic bīja . However, bhakti-latā-bīja is different from these other bījas. Bhakti-latā-bīja can be received only through the mercy of the spiritual master. Therefore one has to satisfy the spiritual master to get bhakti-latā-bīja ( yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ )." *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja is the origin of devotional service. Unless one satisfies the spiritual master, he gets the bīja , or root cause, of karma , jñāna and yoga without the benefit of devotional service. However, one who is faithful to his spiritual master gets the bhakti-latā-bīja. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master. After receiving the spiritual master's mercy, one must repeat his instructions, and this is called śravaṇa-kīrtana —hearing and chanting. One who has not properly heard from the spiritual master or who does not follow the regulative principles is not fit for chanting ( kīrtana ). This is explained in Bhagavad-gītā : vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana (BG 2.41). One who has not listened carefully to the instructions of the spiritual master is unfit to chant or preach the cult of devotional service. One has to water the bhakti-latā-bīja after receiving instructions from the spiritual master." I remember in Hawaii, this section here, it says a person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, and you said that Kṛṣṇa gives you the weapon and the spiritual master sharpens it, the weapon of knowledge, and in that way we can cut free from material bondage. The classes should be regularly held. Those who are engaged in the field work, then let them work, but woman or others, they should hear in the class. They should attend. There is regular class for everyone in the afternoon, after prasādam . That's nice. ( kīrtana heard from downstairs) What they are saying now? Downstairs? " Haribol ." People cannot understand how just by chanting enthusiastic kīrtana so many problems can be solved. Yes. What they understand, all rascals? Wasting time. Going to the moon planet, going to the Mars planet. Why? What you will gain? Still they are going. Simply spending money. In Bengal it is called ostrādi. Ostrādi , in English? One who places himself as very intelligent leader. What is called in one word? Presumptuous? Presumptuous? Presumes he's something that he's . . . No, it is a very nice word. An imposter? Imposter is falsely. It is not exactly falsely. Beginning with "p." (Hari-śauri looking in dictionary) Do you find there teacher ? Teachers , other things? Teacher? Teacher, and other synonyms. Find out the teacher . They have got so many synonyms. Teacher: "Educator, instructor, preceptor, master, tutor, coach, schoolmaster, schoolmistress, schoolmarm, pedagogue." Pedagogue, yes, this word. Pedagogy . . . how do you pronounce this word? Pedagogue. Yes. Pedagogue. This word, now you see what is the pedagogue in dictionary. Pedigree. Pedagogue—pedagogue or predagogue? Pedagogue. Here we are. "Pedagogue: schoolmaster, teacher." That's all it gives. "Pedagogy, science of teaching." "Implying pedagy." Look up pedagy . "Implying pedagy." It says: "Usually derogatory." *Oh, "Pedant—one who overrates or parades book*-learning or technical knowledge or insists on strict adherence to formal rules. One always possessed by theory doctrinaire." Yes, this word. Pedant. Pedagogue? Pedagogue is the first, yes. What is the spelling? *P*-e-d-a-g-o-g-u-e. *Peda. Peda. P-e-d*-a . *Yeah. P*-e-d-a-g-o-g-u-e. Pedagogue. Oh. Pedagogue. Not pedi , but peda . Pedagogue. Pedagogue. Yes. So they are going on, pedagogue. *And the other one is pedant. Pedant, "One who overrates or parades book*-learning." Pedantry, there is a word. Our Harikeśa was speaking that if they do not say there is life in Mars, then their whole propaganda will fail. Yes, I was saying that this morning. This time, if they say that there is no life in the Mars, they'll never get next chance, he said. I think it is meaningful. It will substantiate our claim. No, our claim intelligent. They are loitering. Our claim is that they do not know anything about that. All foolish propaganda. But their position is that unless they say that there is life, then their this false propaganda will no longer run on. We are certain that they cannot go there, neither is it possible to understand what is there. Simply imagination. We do not give any credit. (pause) You said you had some plan? For the land here? When we came in, you were saying you had some plan for the land. Plan is that we have got woods. Cut the woods, make small cottages, and engage them for growing fruits, flowers, grains, and make the complete arrangement nicely. Water . . . Irrigation. In this way make it evergreen. There was a question about the cows, that at what point should the calf be separated from the mother. Because sometimes when the calf is separated, the mother, she cries. No, no. Why separation? They should be given chance to drink milk. But isn't there a point? Huh? There is a point when the calf is taken away from the mother? No, they should not be taken away. Shouldn't be. I think in all our farms they do that. I heard in New Vrindavan they took them away very early. The problem is that the calves drink so much milk that they become very sick, so they have to separate. Therefore they should not be allowed always. Once in a day, that's all. Oh. Not too much allowed, but once. At least when milking they should be allowed to drink little milk, and that will encourage the mother to deliver more milk. Oh. At the same time they're milking the cow, the calf can come. Yes. They can bring it, milk. And while milking, the calf may be standing before the mother. They do that in India. So she will not be sorry. That's nice. Completely separation is not good. And after birth, at least for one week the calf should be allowed. Because after this giving birth, the milk is not fit for human consumption. The calf should not be allowed to eat more, but at the same time the mother must see once, twice. Then it will be all right. Of course, we are born in big, big towns; we do not know. But I know this is the process. In Allahabad I was keeping cow. There was facility. I don't think our farms are doing like that. In New Vrindavan they do? What, letting the calves come? I don't think so. You can write a letter to them. The whole system's so perfect. It's completely satisfying in every respect. And if you make others dissatisfied for your pleasure, that is sinful. You should act in such a way that nobody is dissatisfied. Then there is balance. Expert management. You have got puffed rice? They may have some in the kitchen. I can check. They have flat rice. No. Puffed rice. This Chyavana Prash , it says five to ten grams every morning with milk. With milk. Five to ten grams. Yes, that's like a spoonful. That's like a heaped spoonful. I think that's about what you're getting there. What we take, that is five to ten grams? Approximately. Maybe a little more. How much milk it is? Doesn't say, it just says with milk. So according to taste. Do you like to take . . . So in the morning. Yes. That's all right. I'll go and find out about this . . . Puffed rice. (break) (background discussion with devotees) Where is your husband? (devotees bring in vegetables) Zucchini? This is zucchini? This? Yes. We should show Prabhupāda each thing that we're doing. (break) . . . (indistinct) Everything's grown on the farm, he said. These are flowers which decorate the vases. They are very tall. They put in the vases every day on the altar, Kṛṣṇa. And this morning . . . you have been there? Taking garlands made out of this. It smells very nice. And that's the carnation. It was the one I gave you yesterday on your walk. It has a very nice scent. No, you have got this cucumber? Yes, there is cucumber. So if fresh, why not eat? We have fresh cucumber every day. But when I take it, it does not appear to be fresh. These are bulk cucumbers. This is fresh cucumber from the garden. Yes. Tomorrow. The cucumber which is supplied to me, that is not fresh. It is from the market. We were not aware that they had cucumber in the garden, because I asked . . . You are not aware? Why not? I was not aware. He's our supplier. At least one cucumber, and this chili, you can make a nice salad. You say that there's no peas? There's no peas in the garden. They are just ready actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They're just ready for picking now. Oh. Beans you have had every day from the garden. Beans are very stringy. Grapes. Oh, so many fresh things. From the greenhouse they are, actually. What is this? That is zucchini, only very small. (laughter) We let them get big to feed so many devotees. (laughter) Very nice, very fresh. So many things can be done. This is zucchini? This is the same thing. They call it marrow. This called, this is . . . I do not know what you call. It is called komura . It is very nice. We used to call them marrows. Zucchinis are small. Tomato. It's an Italian type of tomato, and there's another one. This is apple? Yes, that's for cooking. Cabbage. Pears. They're growing chickpeas. Oh, chickpeas also, yes. They're not ripe yet. You can see inside, inside the pod, one chickpea. They have to go yellow on the plant, and then we pick them and then put them in sacks for the winter. We have a whole field planted of chickpea. They're very expensive here, so it's nice. So you have got immediately some pods? And also you have been taking the fresh coriander, dhaniya . Oh, nice. So, this pod? Peas, beans. You have got some? Yes, plenty, Śrīla Prabhupāda. For tomorrow? Bring all them. (laughter) He supplies us every day. What's this? This is lemon spinach. A type of sour spinach. Tasty. Tastes like a lemon. Yes. (tries it) Very good. Anything else hidden in here? This is our apple? Yes. They are our apples from the garden. Sweet peas. There's many varieties of flowers for the garlands and the vases, for almost the next two months. Grow more, more, all these fruits, flowers. This is from ours? Yes. Rose. We are growing 2,500 . . . (break) Go and live happily. This is a . . . Pear. It's not yet ripe. You have got puffed rice? Yes. So bring some this pod. Tomorrow. I shall, with puffed rice, I shall take this. How do you want them cooking? Yes, I'll tell you. Let them bring. Bring some now? (laughter) Glories to Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Give Mandākinī these peas. She'll . . . Now? Yes. She can . . . tomorrow she can utilize it for kachorī . I've asked her to make kachorī . Let them use this. They must have only just come ripe just this last week. So many things are growing. Puffed rice, you simply make it hot, dry, take it away, and then take some of the peas, put very little ghee and masālā and some peas, fry it nicely. Then put little water and cover it. When it is soft, you can add with it little these green chilis. These big ones? Yes. Not very much, but little. These are not very hot, the big ones. The small ones are the hot ones, but we don't have any of those left. That's all right. And then mix them, or keep them separate? No, keep separately. They should be very soft. And the puffed rice, hot. Then mix with little ghee and masālā . Then, I'll take little. Jaya . (end) Conversation A -- August 2, 1976, New Mayapur The whole country could be like this if everybody was Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Very peacefully you can live. In the city you go, thousands of cars are running— ror*-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror. What is called? Flyway, expressway, downway. Every ten yards stop for the light. (laughter) How artificial life. And with all these things, if people would have been happy, all right. But they're not happy, in spite of all this advancement. Yes. Simply increasing their miseries. That's all. Problems. The bigger the buildings, the more anxiety they're in. Not only many cars, they new construct, new roads, new . . . increasing business, in the hope of happiness. But there is no happiness. Happiness is the last consideration. They are thinking that, "In this way we shall be happy." Get more money. *First of all, paved way, then flyway, then another flyway, then another flyway. In this way. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ ( SB 7.5.31). They're always striving for happiness, that's all. They never achieve it, they never get there. No. That is called māyā . Just like the animal is running after the mirage, water, but there is no water. He simply runs until he dies. That's all. This is going on. *Dogs on four wheels. (laughs) It was so nice sitting underneath the tree there, chanting. I was thinking this is what we could do forever, twenty*-four hours. No need to do anything else. Yes. (pause) Prospective place, this. Very future prospect. Oh, yes. We're buying these big properties now. We don't have so many devotees, but we know just even in five years they're going to be packed. Hmm? *Maybe now we don't have so many devotees for all these big places we're buying, but even just in five years or ten years they'll be full up. We'll have to expand more and more. Your idea for fifty percent for books, fifty percent for buildings, it's very wonderful. I remember in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta you said that the book distribution and the establishment of temples should go parallel lines, side by side. Going on. Up to date, to my satisfaction, it is going on. If you're satisfied, then we know it's going to be successful. But they fight amongst themselves, the GBCs. Hmm, that's the problem. I did not see Harikeśa. He was there. Oh, he was there? Yes. He's been feeling a bit ill today. Oh. This is thyme herbs? No. This is the seed. Oh, them. They grow it in the garden. The first, what you got, that was grown here. Hmm? Those twigs? They were grown here in the garden. Oh. (pause) Would you like anything tonight? A piece of Chyavana Prash ? (Harikeśa enters) What is that? This boy brought this. I wanted to just ask you if this was any good or not. This is nutmeg oil. This is the oil I was telling you about. *And this is All*-Brand . . . Axe Brand Universal Oil, supposed to be for massages or something. Chinese? (indistinct) . . . this is Chinese. It's got different . . . says menthol crystal, peppermint oil, eucalyptol oil, menthol salicilate, oil of lavender, chloroform BP, camphor powder and white oil. What is for? Supposed to be for massaging. It's supposed to help the muscles. And what is this? It's got the cap on it. Nutmeg oil. This is the one I was telling you about. Take the cap off. They're all selling all this? No, this is not ours. Rādhe-Śyāma dāsa brought this. It was brought by one of the devotees from . . . Thailand, was it? *He was in Kuala*-Lumpur. He says he bought it from a Buddhist temple, big Buddhist temple. *Kuala*-Lumpur? There is a big Buddhist temple I know, I went there. He said in a letter, he just wrote a little letter to you, that . . . you laid a cornerstone on some temple? About three, four years ago? *Kuala*-Lumpur? Yes. It's finished. It cost a million dollars. And he says this man wants to give it to us. Oh, something, that gentleman . . . It's a rather nice letter. Written by him? No, this boy who was there. I'll bring him tomorrow. So we can take it. Yes. This is nice idea he has got. He has spent millions of dollars? One million on the temple. Oh? How he got the money? I don't know. Maybe he was rich man. This was made in Penang. Hmm? Penang. Penang? Yes. Penang also I visited. I stayed with one Indian gentleman. His wife made very nice kachorī . It doesn't matter wherever you go around the world . . . *They asked: "What you want to eat?" "If you can, you make first*-class kachorī ." That is from my childhood. My friends also did it. They'd make the first-class kachorīs in my youthhood. I am fond of kachorī. Kachorī is made first class in Mathurā, Agra and Mathurā. Very, very nice. The kachorī is being made, hundreds of customers waiting. At shops, there was many shops, waiting for purchasing. And as soon as it comes out of the pan, immediately sold. There is no question of waiting. They make so spices. That is India's craftmanship. Nobody will starve. If you have no business, he'll prepare something palatable and people will purchase, all over India. There's so many people on the railway station selling. There's no question of starvation for want of money. Anywhere sit down and do something palatable, and people will purchase. So your livelihood will go on. Pakorā, kachorī, jalebī , anything. You make some palatable, people are fond of eating some palatable things. That is their hobby. In Allahabad, there was a brāhmaṇa . I had my business, and he was neighborhood, he was living. So in the morning, the husband and wife would go to take bath in the Ganges. They would very nicely take bath, and while coming they will purchase some ingredients and then come home. The husband will perform pūjā , etcetera, and the wife will prepare many nice preparations— barā, pakorī, puchka (Indian snack), this, that. Then he'll take his meals, rest awhile, and in the evening he will sit down—he was sitting just in front of my shop—about four or five o'clock. All the preparations his wife had made whole day, and the small shop. And the university students will come up to night. Ten o'clock, he'll finish. Nothing will remain. Everything will be . . . and he'll make at least ten rupees' profit, minimum. In those days, 1925, in those days ten rupees means nowadays quite . . . at least fifty rupees. So, and living very happily. Living humbly as a brāhmaṇa , he was having his pūjā , going to the Ganges, taking bath, husband and wife, in the morning, and the wife's business is to prepare and his business was to sell. So they'll make at least ten, fifteen rupees' profit daily, very prosperous, living peacefully, husband and wife. There are many such family. The . . . if wife is very good, then his home is very nice. They cannot be unhappy at any circumstances. Dampatyoḥ kalaho nāsti tatra śrīḥ svayam āgataḥ. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. When there is full agreement between husband and wife, cooperation, then the goddess of fortune comes there without application. You haven't got to ask goddess of fortune, "Please come and help me." She'll come automatically. This is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. There are so many things in India culture for becoming happy and advancing towards the goal of life. Now I am appreciating for more and more, seeing the whole world, what is India's culture. Formerly I was thinking, "It is custom. To become faithful wife, this is custom." But when I come outside I see what is wife and what is faithful wife. In India, still, in the village, even there is fight between husband, wife, the wife is faithful. Still. Completely dependent on husband. The husband also, in spite of fighting, he is always careful that the wife does not get any inconvenience. It was the culture; now it is breaking. You can close that. In material world, for peaceful life there must be peaceful condition between the husband and wife. Everyone requires wife, everyone requires husband. (aside) Inside also do. Sex is necessary, so make the condition of sex very peacefully. Why disturbed? Make the condition that there will be . . . it is necessary. As eating is necessary, sleeping is necessary, for ordinary man, so sex is also necessary. So make a condition so that nothing will be disturbed, and in undisturbed condition of mind execute spiritual advancement. This is Indian civilization. Aim is spiritual advancement. And to make condition favorable, there are so many things. So unless we get favorable condition . . . here in the Western countries there is no favorable condition. First of all, they have no idea of spiritual life, the goal of life, neither there is favorable condition. And gradually things are becoming degrading. On my last tour in Chicago I saw. In three weeks she has twice divorced, one lady advertised. You remember it? I wasn't there that time. I remember. You were there, yes. Is that life? How they can be happy if this is the condition? (pause) So what further advancement? In reference? Tehran. Oh, your tickets are definitely booked on the nonstop flight. I finally managed to . . . . . . take the ticket. Oh, we have got ticket. The reservation, I mean . . . and if for some reason we can't get on that flight, we have reservations on another flight that arrives at . . . arrives four hours later. That doesn't matter. It changes. It leaves earlier and gets there four hours later. Was lunch all right today? Lunch? Your lunch was all right? Hmm? Was lunch all right? Prasādam ? The potatoes and karelā , it should be fried. Yes, it was fried. I fried it with the cover on. No, not in the beginning. Fry it, and if it is still hard, then . . . Then put the cover on. Oh, all right. Yes, not from beginning. Oh, I made a mistake. If you cover from the beginning, the water which is already there, they will be coming out. And the idea is the water should be taken away. Then it will be tasteful. Still, it was good. Should I cook if I still have this fever tomorrow? Eh? Right now I have a fever. No, don't cook. So if I have a fever I shouldn't cook for you? It's unhealthy for you, or . . .? Huh? It won't bother me so much, but if it's unhealthy for you . . . No, no, I have no objection. But if you have got fever, why shall you? There are so many others. They can cook. I cannot tolerate being sick any more. The body means sickness. The body itself is sickness. In illusion I think I come back here, I get healthy. In illusion I think if I leave India and come here I will get healthy. But I come here, I also get sick. I go there, I also get sick. (laughs) You seem to be much better now. Yes, little better. (pause) (devotees leave) *Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . thinking of how to utilize the whole land. The situation is very good, good prospect. I want that self*-independent here, as far as possible. But you have got enough materials. With woods you can make cottages. Then land becomes clear, then utilize it. Cows. Cows, so many things. Free from all anxieties, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Life is meant for simply chanting. This should be the motto. But because we have got this body, we have to maintain it. That much. Otherwise, we have no ambition to become a very big man in this material world, enjoy it. This is all false, useless. He'll become a big man, and one day death comes and kicks him out. Just see. So these are all false attempts. It has no meaning. The meaningful life is, so long we live, become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. And tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). That is wanted. Give facility to the people. Here is very nice arrangement. Now make plan how to utilize. You have got enough land. You can utilize for supplying the necessities of life. Yes. It's a very wonderful place. Yes. We can get many wonderful places like this all over the world. But they have not been taught how to utilize them. I think in one year they have done nicely. They have built a greenhouse and planted all the cultivated land. No, they are working hard, there is no doubt about it. And the temple also, Deity worship and everything. Oh, yes. Things are going nicely. There is no doubt about it. And children should be given that much education—to read and write and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *The devotees are talking how nice it was to sit outside with you and chant and hear you speak tonight. I remember the last time I was in New Vrindavan many years ago, when I first became a devotee. You were sitting outside, giving some lecture, series of lectures on Vyāsadeva and the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Yes. No, I like this life, from my very childhood. And on our roof there were trees, er, plants, flower plants, and . . . my grandmother, she . . . we, all grandchildren used to water it. So downstairs we took water in, what is called? A jhāri ? Sprinkling can? Ah, sprinkling can. We all grandchildren, we were about half a dozen. So we took very much pleasure in watering. But my special tendency was that along with the plants, I, with the bushes, I'll sit down. My tendency. And I'll sit down for hours. I liked that, in my childhood. In my maternal uncle's house also, I was doing that. As soon as I find some bush, I make a sitting place. It's hard to see how people could not be attracted to such a nice life. Yes. And more and more people are coming. They'll come. First of all, this life is not for every man. Most fortunate man. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. Kona. Kona means someone; *it is not for everyone. Kona bhāgyavān . Find out this verse, Nineteenth Chapter, Madhya*-līlā. (devotees look for verse) Brahmāṇḍa bhramite ? *Brahmāṇḍa bhramite. Guru*-kṛṣṇa. Find out. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā pāya. *Guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja . Oh. "According to their karma , all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service." Yes. This is not for everyone. *There's a nice purport. Should I do the purport? "When we speak of brahmāṇḍa , we refer to the whole universe, or to the cluster of many millions of universes. In all universes, there are innumerable planets and innumerable living entities upon those planets in the air and in the water. There are millions and trillions of living entities everywhere, and they are engaged by māyā in suffering and enjoying the results of their fruitive activity life after life. This is the position of the materially conditioned living entities. Out of many of these living entities, if one is actually fortunate, he comes in contact with a bona fide spiritual master by Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart, and if one desires something, Kṛṣṇa fulfills one's desire. If the living entity by chance or fortune comes in contact with the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and wishes to associate with that movement, Kṛṣṇa, who is situated in everyone's heart, gives him the chance to meet a bona fide spiritual master. This is called guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāda . Kṛṣṇa is prepared to bestow His mercy upon all living entities, and as soon as a living entity desires the Lord's mercy, the Lord immediately gives him an opportunity to meet a bona fide spiritual master. Such a person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master. He is helped from within by Kṛṣṇa and from without by the spiritual master. Both are prepared to help the sincere living being become free from this material bondage." *"How one can become this fortunate can be seen in the life of Nārada Muni. In his previous life he was born of a maidservant. Although he was not born into a prestigious position, his mother was fortunately engaged in rendering service to some Vaiṣṇavas. When these Vaiṣṇavas were resting during the cāturmāsya period, the boy Nārada took the opportunity to engage in their service. Taking compassion upon the boy, the Vaiṣṇavas offered him the remnants of their food. By serving them and obeying their orders, the boy became the object of sympathy for the Vaiṣṇavas, and, by the Vaiṣṇavas' unknown mercy, he gradually became a pure devotee. In the next life he was Nārada Muni, the most exalted of Vaiṣṇavas and the most important guru and ācārya of Vaiṣṇavas. Following in the footsteps of Nārada Muni, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is rendering service to humanity by giving everyone a chance to come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. If one is fortunate, he becomes intimately related with this movement. Then, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one's life becomes successful. Everyone has dormant kṛṣṇa*-bhakti, love for Kṛṣṇa, and in the association of good devotees that love is revealed. As stated in Caitanya-caritāmṛta :" *"Dormant devotional service to Kṛṣṇa is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , dormant love for Kṛṣṇa is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151)." Then? Then? No, it is not finished? No, this is finished. Next verse? "When a person receives the seed of devotional service, he should take care of it by becoming a gardener and sowing the seed in his heart. If he waters the seed gradually by the process of śravaṇa and kīrtana (hearing and chanting), the seed will begin to sprout." *Purport: "To live with devotees or to live in a temple means to associate with the śravaṇa*-kīrtana process. Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution of śravaṇa-kīrtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who engaged in the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity. However, one should not falsely imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura and abandon Deity worship just to try to engage in śravaṇa-kīrtana . This is not possible for neophyte devotees." *"The word guru*-prasāda indicates that the spiritual master is very merciful in bestowing the boon of devotional service upon the disciple. That is the best possible gift the spiritual master has to offer. Those with a background of pious life are eligible to receive life's supreme benefit, and to bestow this benefit, the Supreme Personality of Godhead sends His representative to impart His mercy. Endowed with the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the spiritual master distributes the mercy to those who are elevated and pious. Thus the spiritual master trains his disciples to render devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called gurukṛpā . It is kṛṣṇa-prasāda , Kṛṣṇa's mercy, that He sends a bona fide spiritual master to the deserving disciple. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, one meets the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of the spiritual master, the disciple is fully trained in the devotional service of the Lord." *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja means 'the seed of devotional service.' Everything has an original cause, or seed. For any idea, program, plan or device, there is first of all the contemplation of the plan, and that is called bīja , or the seed. The methods, rules and regulations by which one is perfectly trained in devotional service constitute the bhakti-latā-bīja, or the seed of devotional service. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received from the spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Other seeds are called anyābhilāṣa-bīja, karma-bīja and jñāna-bīja . If one is not fortunate enough to receive the bhakti-latā-bīja from the spiritual master, he instead cultivates the seeds of karma-bīja, jñāna-bīja or political and social or philanthropic bīja . However, bhakti-latā-bīja is different from these other bījas. Bhakti-latā-bīja can be received only through the mercy of the spiritual master. Therefore one has to satisfy the spiritual master to get bhakti-latā-bīja ( yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ )." *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja is the origin of devotional service. Unless one satisfies the spiritual master, he gets the bīja , or root cause, of karma , jñāna and yoga without the benefit of devotional service. However, one who is faithful to his spiritual master gets the bhakti-latā-bīja. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master. After receiving the spiritual master's mercy, one must repeat his instructions, and this is called śravaṇa-kīrtana —hearing and chanting. One who has not properly heard from the spiritual master or who does not follow the regulative principles is not fit for chanting ( kīrtana ). This is explained in Bhagavad-gītā : vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana (BG 2.41). One who has not listened carefully to the instructions of the spiritual master is unfit to chant or preach the cult of devotional service. One has to water the bhakti-latā-bīja after receiving instructions from the spiritual master." I remember in Hawaii, this section here, it says a person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, and you said that Kṛṣṇa gives you the weapon and the spiritual master sharpens it, the weapon of knowledge, and in that way we can cut free from material bondage. The classes should be regularly held. Those who are engaged in the field work, then let them work, but woman or others, they should hear in the class. They should attend. There is regular class for everyone in the afternoon, after prasādam . That's nice. ( kīrtana heard from downstairs) What they are saying now? Downstairs? " Haribol ." People cannot understand how just by chanting enthusiastic kīrtana so many problems can be solved. Yes. What they understand, all rascals? Wasting time. Going to the moon planet, going to the Mars planet. Why? What you will gain? Still they are going. Simply spending money. In Bengal it is called ostrādi. Ostrādi , in English? One who places himself as very intelligent leader. What is called in one word? Presumptuous? Presumptuous? Presumes he's something that he's . . . No, it is a very nice word. An imposter? Imposter is falsely. It is not exactly falsely. Beginning with "p." (Hari-śauri looking in dictionary) Do you find there teacher ? Teachers , other things? Teacher? Teacher, and other synonyms. Find out the teacher . They have got so many synonyms. Teacher: "Educator, instructor, preceptor, master, tutor, coach, schoolmaster, schoolmistress, schoolmarm, pedagogue." Pedagogue, yes, this word. Pedagogy . . . how do you pronounce this word? Pedagogue. Yes. Pedagogue. This word, now you see what is the pedagogue in dictionary. Pedigree. Pedagogue—pedagogue or predagogue? Pedagogue. Here we are. "Pedagogue: schoolmaster, teacher." That's all it gives. "Pedagogy, science of teaching." "Implying pedagy." Look up pedagy . "Implying pedagy." It says: "Usually derogatory." *Oh, "Pedant—one who overrates or parades book*-learning or technical knowledge or insists on strict adherence to formal rules. One always possessed by theory doctrinaire." Yes, this word. Pedant. Pedagogue? Pedagogue is the first, yes. What is the spelling? *P*-e-d-a-g-o-g-u-e. *Peda. Peda. P-e-d*-a . *Yeah. P*-e-d-a-g-o-g-u-e. Pedagogue. Oh. Pedagogue. Not pedi , but peda . Pedagogue. Pedagogue. Yes. So they are going on, pedagogue. *And the other one is pedant. Pedant, "One who overrates or parades book*-learning." Pedantry, there is a word. Our Harikeśa was speaking that if they do not say there is life in Mars, then their whole propaganda will fail. Yes, I was saying that this morning. This time, if they say that there is no life in the Mars, they'll never get next chance, he said. I think it is meaningful. It will substantiate our claim. No, our claim intelligent. They are loitering. Our claim is that they do not know anything about that. All foolish propaganda. But their position is that unless they say that there is life, then their this false propaganda will no longer run on. We are certain that they cannot go there, neither is it possible to understand what is there. Simply imagination. We do not give any credit. (pause) You said you had some plan? For the land here? When we came in, you were saying you had some plan for the land. Plan is that we have got woods. Cut the woods, make small cottages, and engage them for growing fruits, flowers, grains, and make the complete arrangement nicely. Water . . . Irrigation. In this way make it evergreen. There was a question about the cows, that at what point should the calf be separated from the mother. Because sometimes when the calf is separated, the mother, she cries. No, no. Why separation? They should be given chance to drink milk. But isn't there a point? Huh? There is a point when the calf is taken away from the mother? No, they should not be taken away. Shouldn't be. I think in all our farms they do that. I heard in New Vrindavan they took them away very early. The problem is that the calves drink so much milk that they become very sick, so they have to separate. Therefore they should not be allowed always. Once in a day, that's all. Oh. Not too much allowed, but once. At least when milking they should be allowed to drink little milk, and that will encourage the mother to deliver more milk. Oh. At the same time they're milking the cow, the calf can come. Yes. They can bring it, milk. And while milking, the calf may be standing before the mother. They do that in India. So she will not be sorry. That's nice. Completely separation is not good. And after birth, at least for one week the calf should be allowed. Because after this giving birth, the milk is not fit for human consumption. The calf should not be allowed to eat more, but at the same time the mother must see once, twice. Then it will be all right. Of course, we are born in big, big towns; we do not know. But I know this is the process. In Allahabad I was keeping cow. There was facility. I don't think our farms are doing like that. In New Vrindavan they do? What, letting the calves come? I don't think so. You can write a letter to them. The whole system's so perfect. It's completely satisfying in every respect. And if you make others dissatisfied for your pleasure, that is sinful. You should act in such a way that nobody is dissatisfied. Then there is balance. Expert management. You have got puffed rice? They may have some in the kitchen. I can check. They have flat rice. No. Puffed rice. This Chyavana Prash , it says five to ten grams every morning with milk. With milk. Five to ten grams. Yes, that's like a spoonful. That's like a heaped spoonful. I think that's about what you're getting there. What we take, that is five to ten grams? Approximately. Maybe a little more. How much milk it is? Doesn't say, it just says with milk. So according to taste. Do you like to take . . . So in the morning. Yes. That's all right. I'll go and find out about this . . . Puffed rice. (break) (background discussion with devotees) Where is your husband? (devotees bring in vegetables) Zucchini? This is zucchini? This? Yes. We should show Prabhupāda each thing that we're doing. (break) . . . (indistinct) Everything's grown on the farm, he said. These are flowers which decorate the vases. They are very tall. They put in the vases every day on the altar, Kṛṣṇa. And this morning . . . you have been there? Taking garlands made out of this. It smells very nice. And that's the carnation. It was the one I gave you yesterday on your walk. It has a very nice scent. No, you have got this cucumber? Yes, there is cucumber. So if fresh, why not eat? We have fresh cucumber every day. But when I take it, it does not appear to be fresh. These are bulk cucumbers. This is fresh cucumber from the garden. Yes. Tomorrow. The cucumber which is supplied to me, that is not fresh. It is from the market. We were not aware that they had cucumber in the garden, because I asked . . . You are not aware? Why not? I was not aware. He's our supplier. At least one cucumber, and this chili, you can make a nice salad. You say that there's no peas? There's no peas in the garden. They are just ready actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They're just ready for picking now. Oh. Beans you have had every day from the garden. Beans are very stringy. Grapes. Oh, so many fresh things. From the greenhouse they are, actually. What is this? That is zucchini, only very small. (laughter) We let them get big to feed so many devotees. (laughter) Very nice, very fresh. So many things can be done. This is zucchini? This is the same thing. They call it marrow. This called, this is . . . I do not know what you call. It is called komura . It is very nice. We used to call them marrows. Zucchinis are small. Tomato. It's an Italian type of tomato, and there's another one. This is apple? Yes, that's for cooking. Cabbage. Pears. They're growing chickpeas. Oh, chickpeas also, yes. They're not ripe yet. You can see inside, inside the pod, one chickpea. They have to go yellow on the plant, and then we pick them and then put them in sacks for the winter. We have a whole field planted of chickpea. They're very expensive here, so it's nice. So you have got immediately some pods? And also you have been taking the fresh coriander, dhaniya . Oh, nice. So, this pod? Peas, beans. You have got some? Yes, plenty, Śrīla Prabhupāda. For tomorrow? Bring all them. (laughter) He supplies us every day. What's this? This is lemon spinach. A type of sour spinach. Tasty. Tastes like a lemon. Yes. (tries it) Very good. Anything else hidden in here? This is our apple? Yes. They are our apples from the garden. Sweet peas. There's many varieties of flowers for the garlands and the vases, for almost the next two months. Grow more, more, all these fruits, flowers. This is from ours? Yes. Rose. We are growing 2,500 . . . (break) Go and live happily. This is a . . . Pear. It's not yet ripe. You have got puffed rice? Yes. So bring some this pod. Tomorrow. I shall, with puffed rice, I shall take this. How do you want them cooking? Yes, I'll tell you. Let them bring. Bring some now? (laughter) Glories to Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Give Mandākinī these peas. She'll . . . Now? Yes. She can . . . tomorrow she can utilize it for kachorī . I've asked her to make kachorī . Let them use this. They must have only just come ripe just this last week. So many things are growing. Puffed rice, you simply make it hot, dry, take it away, and then take some of the peas, put very little ghee and masālā and some peas, fry it nicely. Then put little water and cover it. When it is soft, you can add with it little these green chilis. These big ones? Yes. Not very much, but little. These are not very hot, the big ones. The small ones are the hot ones, but we don't have any of those left. That's all right. And then mix them, or keep them separate? No, keep separately. They should be very soft. And the puffed rice, hot. Then mix with little ghee and masālā . Then, I'll take little. Jaya . (end) Conversation A -- August 3, 1976, New Mayapur . . . any expert in your country who can fry food grains in hot sand. Like they make puffed rice, I think, like that. I don't think so. They do it by machine. Puffed rice? How? What is that machine? When they make a thatcher, they use some kind of machine. Yeah. Must do. But we can do it very easily. Sand should be very hot. Then make hot sand; *it is not very difficult. Any fire. And then take the grains in some . . . another pot, and put the hot sand under it and then agitate. And it will putt*-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt , they'll be finished. Put the hot sand where? Sand is being heated in fire, so you put the grains in another pot and put the hot sand there. Underneath the pot? Why underneath? I said another pot. You are so dull brain. Here is hot sand. I bring in another pot the grains, and the hot sand I pour on it. Pour on it, on top of the grains. Oh. *Yes. And then agitate and then put the whole thing on a mesh and make it like this, again put the hot sand there. Is it clear? Then you get the puffed*-up grains. That is very good food. Devotees make popcorn. Eh? They make popcorn. That's another thing. Popcorn, they fry it in ghee , hot ghee . Not much though, just a little. No, I've seen it. They do it. But that is not very digestive. If you make this sand, hot sand . . . It's light. *Very light. So in the morning you can give them this puffed grains, then fruits and milk—very good breakfast. I mean to say all self*-dependent. Yes. We should save time, as much for this purpose, for chanting, discussing grantha . Not for any personal so-called comforts. We can sit down anywhere on the grass here, and whatever available we make our food. This is the idea. Life will be sublime. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām ( BG 18.65). That is real business. They are spending so much money for entertainment in material life, but no one is becoming enlivened. But this kind of discussion is so fresh. For a show they pay five dollars, to go to one movie for one hour, two hours. *That is another artificial agitation of the mind. It has . . . there is no practical benefit. Just see how many varieties of flowers, colorful. Can they make such colorful? "Yes, we're trying to overcome nature. Wait millions of years." And what about not? "Now you sleep." (laughter) These rascals are misleading other rascals. And they are, "Oh, a scientist!" Very misleading civilization. We shall appreciate in every flower the craftsmanship of Kṛṣṇa, how He has done nicely. Unnecessarily puffed up by so*-called advancement of knowledge, misleading themselves and misleading others. Who is that old man comes? Which one? Some old man? Oh, he's a Life Member from Belgium. Oh. He has come from Belgium? In the last German war, the first attempt of attack was on Belgium. And within few hours, Belgium finished, conquered over. (pause) It's a very nice part of the day. It's warm . . . Eh? It's a nice part of the day. It's very comfortable. I think this part is better situated than New Vrindavan, eh? What do you think? This is a lot nicer. New Vrindavan is on the rocks and hills, and this is plain. Therefore situation is better here. That New Orleans is also plain land. You have been there? And Pennsylvania is also. Pennsylvania is very good. But it doesn't matter. Our purpose will be served anywhere. So try to concentrate in this village organization life. Full of anxieties, city life. The houses already there, if you repair them nicely then it is a very nice place. They're gradually being repaired. Yes. No one is getting any salary here. They are just working and taking what they . . . Yes, that's all right. Why salary? Kṛṣṇa's servant. We are eternal servant. That is the beauty of our institution. We have no hired men. Unless one is sincere, why he'll work? What is the time now? *Eight*-thirty. *(referring to clock) I think it is stopped. Just see how beautifully it is colored. This sense, aesthetic sense. Kṛṣṇa knows how it will become beautiful. Svā*-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (CC Madhya 13.65, purport). Construction—eh?—of the flower. And there is no intelligence. Chance. So beat them with shoes, and when they protest, "Oh, it is chance, don't mind. It is by chance I am beating." (laughter) It seems they are struggling so hard for existence they do not have time to contemplate these simple things, working so hard. Yes. So show the example that how by simple living and thinking of Kṛṣṇa, one can become perfect and happy. People's minds are so much agitated by false desire that they can't appreciate anything. Real beauty they overlook, searching for something else. (pause) *My mother used to make puffed rice at home. So there is special rice available for making puffed rice. Either you can prepare at home or you can purchase in the market, special rice. So she was preparing nice puffed rice, very, very nice. In a sand pot. My mother was always engaged in making some food preparation—some pickle, some chutney, and this puffed rice, or something else, something else, something else. Besides cooking for the family, she was being assisted by my sisters. Always palatable foodstuff. So many guests were there, and if son*-in-law would come, they would specially prepare food for him. To receive guests, give them nice food to eat, prepare nice food for the family, this is the Indian pleasure. They are not very much—nowadays a little different—for upkeep of the home, very . . . that, in their own way, they keep it very nicely. Every utensils, very cleansed, they are kept ready for use, some cloth. If you go in a poor man's home, but you'll find everything very neat and clean. Ask these gṛhasthas to keep their home very neat and clean. Are they keeping? Yes. What are the general program for eating? For eating? Every morning everyone has a nice glass of yogurt, chickpeas and apple, orange and banana. Chickpeas fried? No. Boiled chickpeas. Oh, boiled. And apple, orange and banana. And in the afternoon they have rice, dāl, cāpāṭi and salad, and in the evening they have a glass of milk and a little bread. That's nice. (sound of engine running) What is that machine? I think it's a truck. One of the vans. Vans. (child crying outside) "Prabhupāda"? (laughs) *We brought the Jagannātha Deity here from Paris for Ratha*-yātrā, and He stayed here for eight days and then went back. And when He went back all the gurukula children, they were all crying and running after the truck. Ācchā . (laughs) So . . . this is natural affection. The little boys also, they were crying, little girls. *So Ratha*-yātrā was functioned here? Oh, yes, very big—two hundred devotees here. It was very ecstatic. Nice prasādam and nice procession. When He came, all the cows came up and they were looking. (laughs) The villagers joined? Yes. They were there. They are finding something new. *The Times of India gave a very good report of New York Ratha*-yātrā. You have got it? It's in the room. I thought you'd seen it. (leaves to get clipping) They cannot publish anything bad about us. They try to find, sometimes. Yes. (returns with clipping) Seems they're always carrying little snippets of information about what we're doing. Before there was a report about the restaurants, and here there's two reports about . . . one about the Jagannātha festival in New York and one about the proposed Vedic university in Kurukṣetra. These were on consecutive days. The one about New York, it says: "Washington, July the 19th." That's where it's reported from. It says: "New York saw on Sunday an unusual spectacle of three brightly colored chariots being pulled along the city's prestigious Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, a distance of about five kilometers, by members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa group. The rathas , built in Orissa style with giant wooden wheels, attracted large crowds of spectators all along the route. It was a novel experience for the New Yorkers. Many resident Indians who are not members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement enthusiastically gave a hand in the pulling. The Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees were celebrating the feast of Jagannātha in the traditional Indian way. The police and the city administration readily cooperated. In a city that is coming to be known for its tolerance of diverse cultures, chariot processions promise to be an annual event. While a few citizens booed and some altercations were reported, the spectacle was well received by the New Yorkers. 'I think it is great,' the New York Times quoted a man as saying. The person, who identified himself as a visitor to New York and was not a Hare Kṛṣṇa fan, referring to the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, added, 'They are all happy and dancing, and that's what life's all about.' Later a vegetarian feast was served to the admirers." Very good. It's very good. There's just a real short one about the university in Kurukṣetra. It says: "Vedic Varsity for Kurukṣetra Soon." "The first Vedic university will come up soon at Kurukṣetra and will be affiliated to V. N. Chakravarty University. The proposed university is being set up by the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, and will cost rupees two crore . Most of the funds will be provided by Mr. Alfred Ford, the nephew of the auto magnate Henry Ford. Mr. Ford, on becoming a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder of ISKCON, changed his name to Ambarīṣa dāsa. The Vedic university will offer courses leading to bhakti-śāstrī and sarvabhauma. " (break) . . . new devotees joining? Yes. The last month we have about five new devotees. Hmm? Including children, there are about hundred and ninety altogether. Hundred and ninety, two hundred. Almost two hundred. One family has joined yesterday. Family? Yes. Husband, wife and children? Two children. He's a builder and plumber. Oh, you'll get help for construction work. He can teach others also. Live peacefully, happily, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. The garden crew, when they go out in the afternoon, they have kīrtana out to the field with mṛdaṅga and karatālas where they work. You have to arrange for little more water. So you can . . . the pump is not in order. You can arrange for that. Yes. That's not so difficult. Your water supply has been all right? Oh, yes. This, in July . . . this is normal weather now, in August and July. But generally in July it has some rain. This year . . . Yes. And it was the hottest weather in a hundred years. Now. It was, in July. Extremely hot. And actually our well was one of the only ones functioning in the whole area, and we were watering the crops and everything. Our corn is very nice, very high, and our tomatoes are very good. The barley harvest was five tons. Five times more? Five tons of barley we got, from our harvest. It was very nice. Oh. Did you get some barley flour? I don't have any. (laughs) We can't make. It's not finely ground enough. We can't make it into cāpāṭis . It's just too coarse. You could do one thing. You just smash that and boil with milk. You mean a mortar and pestle? Smash and boil with milk. Don't put sugar. Then I shall put sugar according to my taste. You want that this evening? No. No. Tomorrow morning. We are the only farm in the whole area that is growing chickpeas. Ācchā ? The man said he did not think they can grow, but we have a whole field of chickpeas. They'll be coming up ripe for harvest in about three weeks. Chickpeas very nutritious. If you simply boil soft, oh, it is very nutritious. A little, so much, is as good as full meal. Next time, if possible, I shall come in June—June, July, August. Yes, these are nice months, best months. It is not difficult. To come to Paris it takes eight or nine hours from Bombay. But you might already be in America at that time. (laughs) You're always in America at that time. No, this place is very nice. The outside, so pleasing, the outdoors. I think you are feeling a little better? Yes, little. This facility is nowhere in America, outdoors. Well, we have one or two places that are just developing, like Miami. Oh. That's fifteen . . . fifteen acres? Something like that. No, more. Miami climate is like this. Oh, very nice. They have a mango orchard. Oh. Also coconut. Oh, yes, very good ḍābs there. Detroit was also very nice. Yes, Detroit. (break) . . . Mālatī? Mālatī? She was there. All those boys are coming tomorrow or the day after from Germany. Harikeśa was in touch with them. We have a nice program on saṅkīrtana where at least twice a week they go to a house and give a class at someone's home. Where? Wherever they are. They meet some interested person, and they go and they have a class in their home. And he invites friends. Yes. Very nice. And one man, after the devotee was there, the next week he sent two thousand dollars in the mail. Ācchā ? And then he came to the Paris temple and he gave another thousand dollars. And then two weeks later he sent again two thousand dollars, and then he moved in with his whole family. Ācchā . (laughs) They are here now. He had his own business and everything, very successful. His children are in the gurukula and he is doing saṅkīrtana . His wife is also? She is the secretary now. Very nice. Wherefrom they came? South of France. South of France. If we had a big farm in the south it would be very nice. In the south of France the weather is always very good. Yes? South of France is near Mediterranean. Marseilles is south? Marseilles is right on the Mediterranean. We have very big saṅkīrtana there. Marseilles? Oh. Many books distributed. How far it is from . . .? From here? About six hours. On the whole, they are appreciating. Oh, yes. This man has come means after appreciating. Everything surrendered—money, family, everything. Of all the different groups in this country, we have the best reputation. They hardly ever write any bad thing about us. French people are, I think, cultured than other states. *They like to read. When they distribute the hard*-cover books door to door, many people always look at the binding, how the book is made, and they like the pictures. We have got our own mung dāl ? Mung dāl ? This is the first year we're growing. We have a large patch. Not yet harvested. Not yet harvested. But the plants are all very healthy, strong. So in the morning you can give. We have got other mung dāl ? Yes. Soak it, soak it, and raw mung dāl also. Ginger and this cucumber. *When we installed the Gaura*-Nitāi Deity last January, many villagers came, and they all came, they were touching the floor. They have never seen such a nice floor, how smooth it was. (laughing) Such marble floor they never saw. (break) . . . who has paid you more than five thousand dollars and he has joined, that does not mean that he's a foolish man. He's a businessman. So what about his business? Leased to somebody else? He leased out to somebody else? He's finished. Oh, stopped that business? Yes. He's full time here. He had plumbing business, so he does all the plumbing here. And he meets all the officials, the police, and they like him. He is older man. He has a very nice way of presenting himself. He's been here over a year now. Several months ago we had a parents' meeting. Because on account of this man Moon, there was much agitation about groups taking young children away. So we had a very nice meeting with prasādam and slides, and one of the parents was saying that, "We want to be angry at you, but the problem is that you are all so nice that we cannot be angry." One gentleman has joined, he has paid five thousand dollars. His whole family has joined. Just now? That's nice. His wife's the same, too. Oh? (break) *I wanted to get Kṛṣṇa Book published while you are here. So I really pushed our printer to work very hard. I told him, "But the thing is, I have no money to pay you right now," because we had just printed Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . He said: "You try to give me five percent down and I'll give you eight months' credit." Ācchā . (laughs) So I didn't have the money because we were fixing up. So one girl joined, and she gave eight thousand dollars. And what is the whole bill? *That was . . . the whole bill was about forty*-five thousand dollars. So that was sufficient for the down payment. It is about more than ten percent. He wants five percent. But I gave him. Hah. (end) Conversation A -- August 3, 1976, New Mayapur . . . any expert in your country who can fry food grains in hot sand. Like they make puffed rice, I think, like that. I don't think so. They do it by machine. Puffed rice? How? What is that machine? When they make a thatcher, they use some kind of machine. Yeah. Must do. But we can do it very easily. Sand should be very hot. Then make hot sand; *it is not very difficult. Any fire. And then take the grains in some . . . another pot, and put the hot sand under it and then agitate. And it will putt*-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt , they'll be finished. Put the hot sand where? Sand is being heated in fire, so you put the grains in another pot and put the hot sand there. Underneath the pot? Why underneath? I said another pot. You are so dull brain. Here is hot sand. I bring in another pot the grains, and the hot sand I pour on it. Pour on it, on top of the grains. Oh. *Yes. And then agitate and then put the whole thing on a mesh and make it like this, again put the hot sand there. Is it clear? Then you get the puffed*-up grains. That is very good food. Devotees make popcorn. Eh? They make popcorn. That's another thing. Popcorn, they fry it in ghee , hot ghee . Not much though, just a little. No, I've seen it. They do it. But that is not very digestive. If you make this sand, hot sand . . . It's light. *Very light. So in the morning you can give them this puffed grains, then fruits and milk—very good breakfast. I mean to say all self*-dependent. Yes. We should save time, as much for this purpose, for chanting, discussing grantha . Not for any personal so-called comforts. We can sit down anywhere on the grass here, and whatever available we make our food. This is the idea. Life will be sublime. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām ( BG 18.65). That is real business. They are spending so much money for entertainment in material life, but no one is becoming enlivened. But this kind of discussion is so fresh. For a show they pay five dollars, to go to one movie for one hour, two hours. *That is another artificial agitation of the mind. It has . . . there is no practical benefit. Just see how many varieties of flowers, colorful. Can they make such colorful? "Yes, we're trying to overcome nature. Wait millions of years." And what about not? "Now you sleep." (laughter) These rascals are misleading other rascals. And they are, "Oh, a scientist!" Very misleading civilization. We shall appreciate in every flower the craftsmanship of Kṛṣṇa, how He has done nicely. Unnecessarily puffed up by so*-called advancement of knowledge, misleading themselves and misleading others. Who is that old man comes? Which one? Some old man? Oh, he's a Life Member from Belgium. Oh. He has come from Belgium? In the last German war, the first attempt of attack was on Belgium. And within few hours, Belgium finished, conquered over. (pause) It's a very nice part of the day. It's warm . . . Eh? It's a nice part of the day. It's very comfortable. I think this part is better situated than New Vrindavan, eh? What do you think? This is a lot nicer. New Vrindavan is on the rocks and hills, and this is plain. Therefore situation is better here. That New Orleans is also plain land. You have been there? And Pennsylvania is also. Pennsylvania is very good. But it doesn't matter. Our purpose will be served anywhere. So try to concentrate in this village organization life. Full of anxieties, city life. The houses already there, if you repair them nicely then it is a very nice place. They're gradually being repaired. Yes. No one is getting any salary here. They are just working and taking what they . . . Yes, that's all right. Why salary? Kṛṣṇa's servant. We are eternal servant. That is the beauty of our institution. We have no hired men. Unless one is sincere, why he'll work? What is the time now? *Eight*-thirty. *(referring to clock) I think it is stopped. Just see how beautifully it is colored. This sense, aesthetic sense. Kṛṣṇa knows how it will become beautiful. Svā*-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (CC Madhya 13.65, purport). Construction—eh?—of the flower. And there is no intelligence. Chance. So beat them with shoes, and when they protest, "Oh, it is chance, don't mind. It is by chance I am beating." (laughter) It seems they are struggling so hard for existence they do not have time to contemplate these simple things, working so hard. Yes. So show the example that how by simple living and thinking of Kṛṣṇa, one can become perfect and happy. People's minds are so much agitated by false desire that they can't appreciate anything. Real beauty they overlook, searching for something else. (pause) *My mother used to make puffed rice at home. So there is special rice available for making puffed rice. Either you can prepare at home or you can purchase in the market, special rice. So she was preparing nice puffed rice, very, very nice. In a sand pot. My mother was always engaged in making some food preparation—some pickle, some chutney, and this puffed rice, or something else, something else, something else. Besides cooking for the family, she was being assisted by my sisters. Always palatable foodstuff. So many guests were there, and if son*-in-law would come, they would specially prepare food for him. To receive guests, give them nice food to eat, prepare nice food for the family, this is the Indian pleasure. They are not very much—nowadays a little different—for upkeep of the home, very . . . that, in their own way, they keep it very nicely. Every utensils, very cleansed, they are kept ready for use, some cloth. If you go in a poor man's home, but you'll find everything very neat and clean. Ask these gṛhasthas to keep their home very neat and clean. Are they keeping? Yes. What are the general program for eating? For eating? Every morning everyone has a nice glass of yogurt, chickpeas and apple, orange and banana. Chickpeas fried? No. Boiled chickpeas. Oh, boiled. And apple, orange and banana. And in the afternoon they have rice, dāl, cāpāṭi and salad, and in the evening they have a glass of milk and a little bread. That's nice. (sound of engine running) What is that machine? I think it's a truck. One of the vans. Vans. (child crying outside) "Prabhupāda"? (laughs) *We brought the Jagannātha Deity here from Paris for Ratha*-yātrā, and He stayed here for eight days and then went back. And when He went back all the gurukula children, they were all crying and running after the truck. Ācchā . (laughs) So . . . this is natural affection. The little boys also, they were crying, little girls. *So Ratha*-yātrā was functioned here? Oh, yes, very big—two hundred devotees here. It was very ecstatic. Nice prasādam and nice procession. When He came, all the cows came up and they were looking. (laughs) The villagers joined? Yes. They were there. They are finding something new. *The Times of India gave a very good report of New York Ratha*-yātrā. You have got it? It's in the room. I thought you'd seen it. (leaves to get clipping) They cannot publish anything bad about us. They try to find, sometimes. Yes. (returns with clipping) Seems they're always carrying little snippets of information about what we're doing. Before there was a report about the restaurants, and here there's two reports about . . . one about the Jagannātha festival in New York and one about the proposed Vedic university in Kurukṣetra. These were on consecutive days. The one about New York, it says: "Washington, July the 19th." That's where it's reported from. It says: "New York saw on Sunday an unusual spectacle of three brightly colored chariots being pulled along the city's prestigious Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, a distance of about five kilometers, by members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa group. The rathas , built in Orissa style with giant wooden wheels, attracted large crowds of spectators all along the route. It was a novel experience for the New Yorkers. Many resident Indians who are not members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement enthusiastically gave a hand in the pulling. The Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees were celebrating the feast of Jagannātha in the traditional Indian way. The police and the city administration readily cooperated. In a city that is coming to be known for its tolerance of diverse cultures, chariot processions promise to be an annual event. While a few citizens booed and some altercations were reported, the spectacle was well received by the New Yorkers. 'I think it is great,' the New York Times quoted a man as saying. The person, who identified himself as a visitor to New York and was not a Hare Kṛṣṇa fan, referring to the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, added, 'They are all happy and dancing, and that's what life's all about.' Later a vegetarian feast was served to the admirers." Very good. It's very good. There's just a real short one about the university in Kurukṣetra. It says: "Vedic Varsity for Kurukṣetra Soon." "The first Vedic university will come up soon at Kurukṣetra and will be affiliated to V. N. Chakravarty University. The proposed university is being set up by the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, and will cost rupees two crore . Most of the funds will be provided by Mr. Alfred Ford, the nephew of the auto magnate Henry Ford. Mr. Ford, on becoming a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder of ISKCON, changed his name to Ambarīṣa dāsa. The Vedic university will offer courses leading to bhakti-śāstrī and sarvabhauma. " (break) . . . new devotees joining? Yes. The last month we have about five new devotees. Hmm? Including children, there are about hundred and ninety altogether. Hundred and ninety, two hundred. Almost two hundred. One family has joined yesterday. Family? Yes. Husband, wife and children? Two children. He's a builder and plumber. Oh, you'll get help for construction work. He can teach others also. Live peacefully, happily, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. The garden crew, when they go out in the afternoon, they have kīrtana out to the field with mṛdaṅga and karatālas where they work. You have to arrange for little more water. So you can . . . the pump is not in order. You can arrange for that. Yes. That's not so difficult. Your water supply has been all right? Oh, yes. This, in July . . . this is normal weather now, in August and July. But generally in July it has some rain. This year . . . Yes. And it was the hottest weather in a hundred years. Now. It was, in July. Extremely hot. And actually our well was one of the only ones functioning in the whole area, and we were watering the crops and everything. Our corn is very nice, very high, and our tomatoes are very good. The barley harvest was five tons. Five times more? Five tons of barley we got, from our harvest. It was very nice. Oh. Did you get some barley flour? I don't have any. (laughs) We can't make. It's not finely ground enough. We can't make it into cāpāṭis . It's just too coarse. You could do one thing. You just smash that and boil with milk. You mean a mortar and pestle? Smash and boil with milk. Don't put sugar. Then I shall put sugar according to my taste. You want that this evening? No. No. Tomorrow morning. We are the only farm in the whole area that is growing chickpeas. Ācchā ? The man said he did not think they can grow, but we have a whole field of chickpeas. They'll be coming up ripe for harvest in about three weeks. Chickpeas very nutritious. If you simply boil soft, oh, it is very nutritious. A little, so much, is as good as full meal. Next time, if possible, I shall come in June—June, July, August. Yes, these are nice months, best months. It is not difficult. To come to Paris it takes eight or nine hours from Bombay. But you might already be in America at that time. (laughs) You're always in America at that time. No, this place is very nice. The outside, so pleasing, the outdoors. I think you are feeling a little better? Yes, little. This facility is nowhere in America, outdoors. Well, we have one or two places that are just developing, like Miami. Oh. That's fifteen . . . fifteen acres? Something like that. No, more. Miami climate is like this. Oh, very nice. They have a mango orchard. Oh. Also coconut. Oh, yes, very good ḍābs there. Detroit was also very nice. Yes, Detroit. (break) . . . Mālatī? Mālatī? She was there. All those boys are coming tomorrow or the day after from Germany. Harikeśa was in touch with them. We have a nice program on saṅkīrtana where at least twice a week they go to a house and give a class at someone's home. Where? Wherever they are. They meet some interested person, and they go and they have a class in their home. And he invites friends. Yes. Very nice. And one man, after the devotee was there, the next week he sent two thousand dollars in the mail. Ācchā ? And then he came to the Paris temple and he gave another thousand dollars. And then two weeks later he sent again two thousand dollars, and then he moved in with his whole family. Ācchā . (laughs) They are here now. He had his own business and everything, very successful. His children are in the gurukula and he is doing saṅkīrtana . His wife is also? She is the secretary now. Very nice. Wherefrom they came? South of France. South of France. If we had a big farm in the south it would be very nice. In the south of France the weather is always very good. Yes? South of France is near Mediterranean. Marseilles is south? Marseilles is right on the Mediterranean. We have very big saṅkīrtana there. Marseilles? Oh. Many books distributed. How far it is from . . .? From here? About six hours. On the whole, they are appreciating. Oh, yes. This man has come means after appreciating. Everything surrendered—money, family, everything. Of all the different groups in this country, we have the best reputation. They hardly ever write any bad thing about us. French people are, I think, cultured than other states. *They like to read. When they distribute the hard*-cover books door to door, many people always look at the binding, how the book is made, and they like the pictures. We have got our own mung dāl ? Mung dāl ? This is the first year we're growing. We have a large patch. Not yet harvested. Not yet harvested. But the plants are all very healthy, strong. So in the morning you can give. We have got other mung dāl ? Yes. Soak it, soak it, and raw mung dāl also. Ginger and this cucumber. *When we installed the Gaura*-Nitāi Deity last January, many villagers came, and they all came, they were touching the floor. They have never seen such a nice floor, how smooth it was. (laughing) Such marble floor they never saw. (break) . . . who has paid you more than five thousand dollars and he has joined, that does not mean that he's a foolish man. He's a businessman. So what about his business? Leased to somebody else? He leased out to somebody else? He's finished. Oh, stopped that business? Yes. He's full time here. He had plumbing business, so he does all the plumbing here. And he meets all the officials, the police, and they like him. He is older man. He has a very nice way of presenting himself. He's been here over a year now. Several months ago we had a parents' meeting. Because on account of this man Moon, there was much agitation about groups taking young children away. So we had a very nice meeting with prasādam and slides, and one of the parents was saying that, "We want to be angry at you, but the problem is that you are all so nice that we cannot be angry." One gentleman has joined, he has paid five thousand dollars. His whole family has joined. Just now? That's nice. His wife's the same, too. Oh? (break) *I wanted to get Kṛṣṇa Book published while you are here. So I really pushed our printer to work very hard. I told him, "But the thing is, I have no money to pay you right now," because we had just printed Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . He said: "You try to give me five percent down and I'll give you eight months' credit." Ācchā . (laughs) So I didn't have the money because we were fixing up. So one girl joined, and she gave eight thousand dollars. And what is the whole bill? *That was . . . the whole bill was about forty*-five thousand dollars. So that was sufficient for the down payment. It is about more than ten percent. He wants five percent. But I gave him. Hah. (end) Conversation A -- August 4, 1976, New Mayapur So what happened to the tickets? The tickets are being locked up in the safe right now. They're going to . . . they're going to bring the tickets tomorrow to this city called Tours, which is very nearby. They have an Air France office, and we can have it converted there. So everything's all right for Saturday. So we shall go by the same plane? Yes, everybody goes in the same plane. That's all right. (devotees offer obeisances and leave) Jaya . (break) This is the first pamphlet that you ever printed? No. I mean in the West? No, before coming here. Oh, and then you brought it with you. Yes. *Says: " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , India's message of peace and good will. Sixty volumes of elaborate English version by Tridandi Goswami A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. Carried by the Scindia Steam Navigation Company Ltd., Bombay, all over the world for scientific knowledge of God." Then it says: "The sufferings of the entire human society can at once be brought under control simply by individual practice of bhakti-yoga , a simple and easy process of chanting the holy name of God. Every country, every nation and every community throughout the world has some conception of the holy name of God, and as such either the Hindus or the Muhammadans or the Christians, everyone can easily chant the holy name of God in a meditative mood, and that will bring about the required peace and good will in the present problematic human society. Any inquiry in this connection will be gladly answered by Śrī Swamiji. The Hindus generally chant the holy name of God in sixteen chain of transcendental sound composed of thirty-two alphabets as Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. The Vedic literatures like the Upaniṣads and the Purāṇas do recommend chanting of the above-mentioned sixteen holy names at a stretch, and Lord Śrī Caitanya, whose cult of chanting the holy name of God gave special importance on these transcendental sounds. In this age of Kali, or the age of hate, hypocrisy, corruption and quarrel, the only remedial measure is that every man should chant the holy name of the Lord, both individually and collectively." *"The glories of the holy name have been described by Śrī Caitanya in His eight verses of Sikṣāṣṭaka , which run as follows: 1) Glory to the Śrī Kṛṣṇa saṅkīrtana , which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years together, and thus the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death, is extinguished. Such saṅkīrtana movement is the prime benediction for the humanity at large because it spreads rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of transcendental knowledge, it increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it helps to have a taste of the full nectarine for which always anxious we are. 2) O my Lord, Your holy name can render all benediction upon the living being, and therefore You have hundreds and millions of names, like Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, etc. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental potencies, and there is no hard*-and-fast rules for chanting these holy names. O my Lord, You have so kindly made easy approach to You by Your holy names, but unfortunate as I am, I have no attraction for them. 3) One can chant the holy names of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking himself as lower than the straw in the streets, tolerant more than the tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and being ready to offer all kinds of respects to others. 4) O almighty Lord, I have no desire for accumulating wealth, nor I have any desire to enjoy beautiful women, neither I want any number of followers of mine. What I want only is that I may have Your causeless devotional service in my life, birth after birth. 5) O the son of Mahārāja Nanda, I am Your eternal servitor, and although I am so, somehow or another I have fallen in the ocean of birth and death. Please therefore pick me up from the ocean of death and fix me up as one of the atoms of Your lotus feet. 6) O my Lord, when shall my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing incessantly by chanting Your holy name, and when all the holes of hairs on my body will have eruptions by the recitation of Your name? 7) O Govinda, feeling Your separation I am considering a moment as twelve years or more than that, and tears flowing down my cheeks like the torrents of rain. I am feeling all vacant in the world without Your presence. 8) I do not know anyone except Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He shall remain as such even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or He may make me broken-hearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything, but He is always my worshipful Lord, unconditionally." *"Chanting of the holy name of God is recommended for everyone, both for the mass of people and the class of people. Those who are scholars, philosophers, scientists, religionists and educated may read the English version of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami with particular attention to the purports appended with each and every verse. They have appreciated the publication as follows: 'At a time when not only the people of India but those of the West need the chastening quality of love and truth in a corrupting atmosphere of hate and hypocrisy, a work like this will have uplifting and corrective influence. What is God? He is truth, He is Love. Even an atheist must accept the supremacy of these qualities, and how much they are needed by the people of the world who have been taught to deny God, and these qualities do not require much emphasis. The author has attempted a tremendous task, the perusal will give us in the sample measure a knowledge of the original. The essence of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the exposition of the Absolute Truth. We would recommend this book.' " Then another one. " 'The editor's vast and deep study of . . ." Whose? *It doesn't give who is speaking, just the quotes. " 'The editor's vast and deep study of the subject and critical insight are reflected in these notes. We have no doubt that with the publication of these volumes of the rightful interpretations of the Bhāgavatam , which has been the gift of Śrī Caitanya and His Gosvāmī followers, has now been available to the English*-knowing world for the first time. The elaborate method is very helpful to the ardent student of Bhāgavatam , who lack in Sanskrit language. It is admitted in all hands that Bhāgavatam is the most difficult text amongst the Purāṇas . The author richly deserves the gratitude of the devotees for his pious learned labor of love.' " And another one: " 'These volumes speak very highly of Swāmījī's scholarship, and especially of his love of cultural pursuits when we look into the enormous labor of sacrifice in producing them single-handed, and that too at a ripe old age of sixty-eight. We honestly pray to the Almighty that He may spare Swāmījī for all the years he may require to finish the magnum opus of sixty volumes and earn the love and gratitude of his fellow men in pursuit of divine love and grace, nay of the entire humanity. You have done a first-class work, and you deserve the hearty commendation of every Indian, every Hindu. Your deep and penetrating study of the subject and your philosophic insight are reflected in this book.' " etcetera, etcetera. That's the whole pamphlet. Complete? Yes. You used to give this pamphlet when you first came? Yes. There's a very nice picture. Oh. Before coming here. *So you would be sixty*-nine then? *Sixty*-nine or seventy. (pause) Huh? Yes, this picture is nice. Taken in Germany, I think. Who is behind? There's, er, this is Haṁsadūta, Vedavyāsa, and then some of the devotees, saṅkīrtana devotees. You were making a joke. (laughs) (break) (during massage) But you were preaching before that, in India, though. Not very much. Oh, yes, that Back to Godhead. In Vṛndāvana you were just translating? Yes. But the library party said that everywhere in Delhi they went, they found that you had already placed your three volumes of *Bhāgavatam* . Yes. In American also. The Congress Library purchased nineteen sets. Which library? Congress Library. Oh, Congress. The one in Washington? The Library of Congress? Or there is a branch in India. Oh. That is where they have your original Back to Godhead. Maybe. The first copy, they have it in Washington there. American government is good organization. (pause) From 1954 to '66 I struggled very hard. Alone. Twelve years. Yes. Twelve years means one yuga . One . . . Roughly one yuga . And big yuga , another. One yuga ? Yes. In the ordinary sense. Oh, the term is used differently? It can be used in different ways? Yes. *We always think of one yuga as being like Kali*-yuga, or . . . Yes, that is a big yuga , this is small yuga . It's very fortunate for us that you were so determined. (long pause) They have got so many cars. Here? Hmm. Actually, I think most of our centers have got many, many vans and cars. That means they are rich. Just like in India they used to measure wealth by how many cows, (laughs) in the West they measure wealth by how many cars. And we have both. Cows and cars, both. Yes. (long pause) So the devotees like this evening class? They like . . .? Evening class. Oh, yes, it's a very enlivening program. In the evening it's very nice out of doors. It's warm from the day. No one falls asleep, except for the children, and that's very good because then they're quiet. Small children, they also clap . . . Yes. . . . and dance on the lap of the mother. They are smiling. Fortunate children, from the birth, associating with devotees. (long pause) Nowadays cheating is a good qualification, huh? Yes. It's their only qualification. If I cheat somebody and get some money, you are very expert. *Top*-class businessman. Yes. *First*-class scientist. And the best politician. Just like in America, once they'd found Nixon was cheating, now they're investigating one man after another, and every one, they're finding all the same. America, cheating is a policy. How a real estate man, lawyer, they're simply planning how to cheat. Hmm. The lawyers are the worst, because they know the law. So they know how to cheat in such a way that they can stay within the law. They said Ambarīṣa's lawyer cheated us out of so many things when we got that Detroit property. (end) Conversation A -- August 4, 1976, New Mayapur So what happened to the tickets? The tickets are being locked up in the safe right now. They're going to . . . they're going to bring the tickets tomorrow to this city called Tours, which is very nearby. They have an Air France office, and we can have it converted there. So everything's all right for Saturday. So we shall go by the same plane? Yes, everybody goes in the same plane. That's all right. (devotees offer obeisances and leave) Jaya . (break) This is the first pamphlet that you ever printed? No. I mean in the West? No, before coming here. Oh, and then you brought it with you. Yes. *Says: " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , India's message of peace and good will. Sixty volumes of elaborate English version by Tridandi Goswami A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. Carried by the Scindia Steam Navigation Company Ltd., Bombay, all over the world for scientific knowledge of God." Then it says: "The sufferings of the entire human society can at once be brought under control simply by individual practice of bhakti-yoga , a simple and easy process of chanting the holy name of God. Every country, every nation and every community throughout the world has some conception of the holy name of God, and as such either the Hindus or the Muhammadans or the Christians, everyone can easily chant the holy name of God in a meditative mood, and that will bring about the required peace and good will in the present problematic human society. Any inquiry in this connection will be gladly answered by Śrī Swamiji. The Hindus generally chant the holy name of God in sixteen chain of transcendental sound composed of thirty-two alphabets as Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. The Vedic literatures like the Upaniṣads and the Purāṇas do recommend chanting of the above-mentioned sixteen holy names at a stretch, and Lord Śrī Caitanya, whose cult of chanting the holy name of God gave special importance on these transcendental sounds. In this age of Kali, or the age of hate, hypocrisy, corruption and quarrel, the only remedial measure is that every man should chant the holy name of the Lord, both individually and collectively." *"The glories of the holy name have been described by Śrī Caitanya in His eight verses of Sikṣāṣṭaka , which run as follows: 1) Glory to the Śrī Kṛṣṇa saṅkīrtana , which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years together, and thus the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death, is extinguished. Such saṅkīrtana movement is the prime benediction for the humanity at large because it spreads rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of transcendental knowledge, it increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it helps to have a taste of the full nectarine for which always anxious we are. 2) O my Lord, Your holy name can render all benediction upon the living being, and therefore You have hundreds and millions of names, like Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, etc. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental potencies, and there is no hard*-and-fast rules for chanting these holy names. O my Lord, You have so kindly made easy approach to You by Your holy names, but unfortunate as I am, I have no attraction for them. 3) One can chant the holy names of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking himself as lower than the straw in the streets, tolerant more than the tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and being ready to offer all kinds of respects to others. 4) O almighty Lord, I have no desire for accumulating wealth, nor I have any desire to enjoy beautiful women, neither I want any number of followers of mine. What I want only is that I may have Your causeless devotional service in my life, birth after birth. 5) O the son of Mahārāja Nanda, I am Your eternal servitor, and although I am so, somehow or another I have fallen in the ocean of birth and death. Please therefore pick me up from the ocean of death and fix me up as one of the atoms of Your lotus feet. 6) O my Lord, when shall my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing incessantly by chanting Your holy name, and when all the holes of hairs on my body will have eruptions by the recitation of Your name? 7) O Govinda, feeling Your separation I am considering a moment as twelve years or more than that, and tears flowing down my cheeks like the torrents of rain. I am feeling all vacant in the world without Your presence. 8) I do not know anyone except Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He shall remain as such even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or He may make me broken-hearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything, but He is always my worshipful Lord, unconditionally." *"Chanting of the holy name of God is recommended for everyone, both for the mass of people and the class of people. Those who are scholars, philosophers, scientists, religionists and educated may read the English version of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami with particular attention to the purports appended with each and every verse. They have appreciated the publication as follows: 'At a time when not only the people of India but those of the West need the chastening quality of love and truth in a corrupting atmosphere of hate and hypocrisy, a work like this will have uplifting and corrective influence. What is God? He is truth, He is Love. Even an atheist must accept the supremacy of these qualities, and how much they are needed by the people of the world who have been taught to deny God, and these qualities do not require much emphasis. The author has attempted a tremendous task, the perusal will give us in the sample measure a knowledge of the original. The essence of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the exposition of the Absolute Truth. We would recommend this book.' " Then another one. " 'The editor's vast and deep study of . . ." Whose? *It doesn't give who is speaking, just the quotes. " 'The editor's vast and deep study of the subject and critical insight are reflected in these notes. We have no doubt that with the publication of these volumes of the rightful interpretations of the Bhāgavatam , which has been the gift of Śrī Caitanya and His Gosvāmī followers, has now been available to the English*-knowing world for the first time. The elaborate method is very helpful to the ardent student of Bhāgavatam , who lack in Sanskrit language. It is admitted in all hands that Bhāgavatam is the most difficult text amongst the Purāṇas . The author richly deserves the gratitude of the devotees for his pious learned labor of love.' " And another one: " 'These volumes speak very highly of Swāmījī's scholarship, and especially of his love of cultural pursuits when we look into the enormous labor of sacrifice in producing them single-handed, and that too at a ripe old age of sixty-eight. We honestly pray to the Almighty that He may spare Swāmījī for all the years he may require to finish the magnum opus of sixty volumes and earn the love and gratitude of his fellow men in pursuit of divine love and grace, nay of the entire humanity. You have done a first-class work, and you deserve the hearty commendation of every Indian, every Hindu. Your deep and penetrating study of the subject and your philosophic insight are reflected in this book.' " etcetera, etcetera. That's the whole pamphlet. Complete? Yes. You used to give this pamphlet when you first came? Yes. There's a very nice picture. Oh. Before coming here. *So you would be sixty*-nine then? *Sixty*-nine or seventy. (pause) Huh? Yes, this picture is nice. Taken in Germany, I think. Who is behind? There's, er, this is Haṁsadūta, Vedavyāsa, and then some of the devotees, saṅkīrtana devotees. You were making a joke. (laughs) (break) (during massage) But you were preaching before that, in India, though. Not very much. Oh, yes, that Back to Godhead. In Vṛndāvana you were just translating? Yes. But the library party said that everywhere in Delhi they went, they found that you had already placed your three volumes of *Bhāgavatam* . Yes. In American also. The Congress Library purchased nineteen sets. Which library? Congress Library. Oh, Congress. The one in Washington? The Library of Congress? Or there is a branch in India. Oh. That is where they have your original Back to Godhead. Maybe. The first copy, they have it in Washington there. American government is good organization. (pause) From 1954 to '66 I struggled very hard. Alone. Twelve years. Yes. Twelve years means one yuga . One . . . Roughly one yuga . And big yuga , another. One yuga ? Yes. In the ordinary sense. Oh, the term is used differently? It can be used in different ways? Yes. *We always think of one yuga as being like Kali*-yuga, or . . . Yes, that is a big yuga , this is small yuga . It's very fortunate for us that you were so determined. (long pause) They have got so many cars. Here? Hmm. Actually, I think most of our centers have got many, many vans and cars. That means they are rich. Just like in India they used to measure wealth by how many cows, (laughs) in the West they measure wealth by how many cars. And we have both. Cows and cars, both. Yes. (long pause) So the devotees like this evening class? They like . . .? Evening class. Oh, yes, it's a very enlivening program. In the evening it's very nice out of doors. It's warm from the day. No one falls asleep, except for the children, and that's very good because then they're quiet. Small children, they also clap . . . Yes. . . . and dance on the lap of the mother. They are smiling. Fortunate children, from the birth, associating with devotees. (long pause) Nowadays cheating is a good qualification, huh? Yes. It's their only qualification. If I cheat somebody and get some money, you are very expert. *Top*-class businessman. Yes. *First*-class scientist. And the best politician. Just like in America, once they'd found Nixon was cheating, now they're investigating one man after another, and every one, they're finding all the same. America, cheating is a policy. How a real estate man, lawyer, they're simply planning how to cheat. Hmm. The lawyers are the worst, because they know the law. So they know how to cheat in such a way that they can stay within the law. They said Ambarīṣa's lawyer cheated us out of so many things when we got that Detroit property. (end) Conversation A -- August 5, 1976, New Mayapur (Conversation with Professor Francois Chenique) How are you? No, this is not him. This is a devotee. Professor's upstairs putting on a dhotī . He brought his daughter. Oh? *Professor Chenique teaches a course in Bhagavad*-gītā at the University, and he is also doing translations of Śaṅkarācārya and teaches for the Federation of yoga . He considers himself a Christian Advaitist. (break) . . . some questions regarding the publications in French. For example, on the front of Back to Godhead magazine, in the English edition and other language editions, they have kept the phrase "Godhead is light, darkness is nescience. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience." Now in French it is difficult to translate that. There is no word Godhead . And if you say "God is light," in French it sounds very impersonalist. Hmm? In French, Dieu est lumiere , "God is light." Many groups say like that. We use the word Godhead, and that distinguishes us from the other groups. Now, is the phrase very important, and do you want us to keep it on the front of the magazine? It should be there. There is little difference between "God" and "Godhead." So then we will have to try to find . . . Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ. Īśvara, more or less everyone, but īśvaraḥ paramaḥ , that is Godhead. The Māyāvādīs, they do not distinguish between one īśvara to another īśvara . That may be on the ordinary level, but there is parama īśvara. One possibility would be to say, "God the Supreme Person is light." That we can translate. God means Supreme Person. But these advaitavādī , Māyāvādīs, they have made God everyone. God means Supreme Person, that is the dictionary word. "Supreme Being." That is the dictionary meaning. God does not mean ordinary, but they have made ordinary, anyone God: "I am God, you are God, he is God." Then what is meaning of God? Therefore we say Godhead . Yes. Head man. There are many men; He is head man. Godhead word is also there in the dictionary. You find out. "Godhead—being God or a God, divine nature, Deity, the Godhead, God." The word is there, but the definition they've given is not very . . . They do not know. (laughs) They do not know what is God, what is Godhead. They think all these are fictitious. Throughout the whole world they do not know what is God. Simply they know the word, that's all. What it means they do not know. That we are giving. Here is God, Godhead. Nobody knows, nobody cares to know. That is nescience. They think it is an idea, that's all. Actually there is God, there is kingdom of God, one can go and speak with Him, dance with Him. They cannot believe there is a . . . it is beyond their poor fund of knowledge. Therefore they do not accept Kṛṣṇa as God. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ ( BG 9.11). God is the Supreme Person, Supreme Being. Actually there is place where God lives. They do not know. This is the first time, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are giving these ideas; otherwise, who knows it? Nobody knows it. The Christian or Muhammadan is . . . nobody knows. And religion means to accept God as the Supreme Person. They do not know God. Then what is meaning of religion? Religion means to accept a Supreme Person as the supreme controller. That is religion. How the Supreme Person is working in manufacturing this flower, let the scientists explain. But there is no brain? Just nicely painted, symmetrically, each flower of the same class, another class, another class, another class. (guests enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is Professor Francois Chenique and his daughter. They drove from Paris this morning to see you. Thank you very much. You can come forward. I have read your review of our book. It is very nice. (Bhūgarbha translates from this point onward) Very nice. Your study about this tradition, Indian tradition, I think he has mentioned. Indian tradition, the whole Vedic literature . . . he understands English? Yes, but I should translate. He's asked me to translate. . . . is to approach God. This is the Indian tradition. But, as you have mentioned Aurobindo's name, Aurobindo's idea was to make a better situation of this world. He wanted, by yoga practice, a better situation of the world. But our tradition says that is not possible. Bhūgarbha translating: He asks what is meant by the situation in this world. *The situation is you have to suffer. Situation is you have to suffer. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). This is a place for suffering, and that also you cannot stay here. Even if you make compromise, "All right, I shall suffer and stay," Kṛṣṇa says no. You suffer, and after you make adjustment, you will be kicked out. He said so do we have to completely leave the world? We cannot stay within the world and sanctify ourselves? You have to leave. You cannot stay. You do not want to leave, that's a fact, but you'll be kicked out. When Napoleon fought for France, he did not like to leave, but he was kicked out. I have seen in one park, there is a Napoleon Bonaparte is there—France and Napoleon identified. But France is there, Napoleon is kicked out. (laughter) He's asking that, in view of that, is it impossible to live a household life and at the same time a spiritual life? Oh, yes. You can do. I hope so, yes. Arjuna, Arjuna is a householder, he's a military man, but the greatest devotee of Kṛṣṇa. He wants you to mention something about the translations. He wants to express his opinion about the translations that the French translators are doing of your books. He is doing? Bhūgarbha He wants to give his opinion. Oh. He's asking permission to give his opinion. It would be very nice. *He says it is very interesting, very important that Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam be translated in the same way as the Gītā . The Bhagavad-gītā has been translated many times into French, but the Bhāgavatam was only translated once, and that also in the last century. This is our translation? No, it's another one. In the 1800 it was translated. And they simply translation, or elaborately like we are doing? Just translation. *Sanskrit on the left*-hand page, French on the right-hand page, but no commentaries. That is difficult to understand. Yes, no one has read. It was the full twelve cantos, but a very limited edition, and only available in library archives. No one has . . . very few people have seen it. He says he feels that the French public is very demanding in questions of editing and writing, and he feels that the French that's used in our translations should not have a smell of English. Sometimes French translations seem like English written in French. He said they should be in perfect French, and that in the French language there's a need to make things more compact and condensed. He's wondering if we can condense them more than in English. So one of us who knows French nicely, he can do that. But there is no difference. They are taking the ideas from English and translating. He says, Professor Chenique wishes to know, would it not be more valuable if our men spoke Sanskrit and could translate directly from the Sanskrit into French? *There is no much difference. Sanskrit is there and the Sanskrit translation is there. Where is the difference? We are giving the Sanskrit and then word*-to-word translation. He says that when one translates from Sanskrit into English and from English into French, that it's not exactly the same thing in French that it was in Sanskrit. He feels that it would be more . . . No, if from Sanskrit to French can be translated, I have no objection. But we have no such arrangement. We have no Sanskrit scholars in French yet, no. Not only scholar. Not only scholar, he must be a realized soul. Simply scholarship will not help. Simply scholarship will not help. There are many Sanskrit scholars in India. There are many Sanskrit scholars, original Sanskrit scholars in India—they cannot understand Bhāgavata . Professor Chenique's point is that we are seeking to introduce these books on a university level, and there's a certain standard that must be met. What is that standard? He's just saying that the style of French, he feels that it's too many words. French . . . he must be French, expert in language, at the same time, a devotee. Then he can express. Otherwise not. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's secretary, Svarūpa Dāmodara, he asked that Brahmin, bhāgavata paḍā giyā bhāgavata sthāne : "Go and study Bhāgavata from bhāgavata ." I have discussed this in the beginning of translation of Bhāgavata . So Bhāgavata , that is the limit of education. Vidyā bhāgavata vadhiḥ . One has to study and take education up to *Bhāgavatam* . That is, if one understands *Bhāgavatam* , he's finished his education. He agrees. He's just saying that he wishes—he's not criticizing in any way—but he wants that your books have a better audience, then more people will accept them. And he feels that if the French, the way that the French has been written, is changed, we'll have a better audience, it will reach higher. *But that is from scholarship point of view. But our point is this Bhāgavata must be presented by bhāgavata . And there is no much scholarship required. Just like Bhāgavata begins with the words janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). This Sanskrit word means the Absolute Truth is that from where everything emanates. Now, that Absolute Truth further explained: anvayād itarataś ca abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). That Absolute Truth is aware of everything, directly and indirectly, of all this creation. In this way, if you step*-by-step study, it is not very difficult so far the word meanings are concerned, but it is a question of realization. Unless one is realized, he cannot explain properly. That is the secret. Therefore we have given the life of Caitanya Mahāprabhu in our Bhāgavatam because He's living Bhāgavatam . Janadrādhi: His point Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that your purports—you are repeating teachings, but this is wanted. His point is that in the French language, the French language cannot accept such repetitions. So he's asking if you could compact more of your purports. But we want to translate your purports with the repetitions, because we know they are wanted. *The English comment*-purport that you give very often will repeat one point for a clear understanding to the reader. Stylistically, in French, this is difficult. It is not the accepted standard. French is generally more compact, something is said only one time. So Professor Chenique is hoping that he will see our future translations a better French style in the translation. And Janadrādhi, who is the translator, one of our translators, explains that our point is we wish to keep your intention by repeating the point so that the reader will understand, because it is being said several times. *That is the system in Vedic ways. Just like you see Bhagavad*-gītā , in different way Kṛṣṇa has explained the immortality of the soul. You take Bhagavad-gītā , that portion. Find out that. What is that verse? Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit ? Before that. Describes negatively in different ways of understanding the soul. Yes, positively, negatively. (French translation) The same thing is being explained in a different way. The question seems to be a very technical one of just French language. He's not objecting to the . . . I've no experience of the French language. I am talking of the Sanskrit language. (laughter) If we give him one purport and see how he would change it. There are so many purports you can. (professor reads one purport in French) He said that that one was all right. (laughter) *I was, up to recent time, I was commenting the Bhagavad*-gītā in the camping. For eleven years every summer I am commenting the Gītā in the camping. And I commend very warmly this edition of the Bhagavad-gītā . I think it's the best that you may find in France. But when I'm reading the commentary for my students, I find some sentences which are not good French, I think because it is not a very good style, and I hope it won't be that matter with . . . (French) Perhaps Professor Chenique could go over our translations and make any suggestions. I have no objection. *Professor Chenique is offering to re*-read our publications, to read them, and when he sees something he thinks can be corrected, he will make some indication. I have no objection. It is welcome. *(devotee enters) This is Hayeśvara, Hayeśvara dāsa, in charge of the Dutch publications, Dutch translator. He has done the Bhagavad*-gītā , this edition, in Dutch. Jaya . Thank you very much. This is the Dutch translation. Professor Chenique made the comment . . . The idea is, suppose I am in France. I do not know French language, but there is fire in my room, and I have to call my neighbors. So somehow or other I call and take their help. (laughter) *Professor Chenique wishes to know whether we cannot do one very small pocketbook edition (of Bhagavad*-gītā ) that will sell very inexpensively. Something like I think in India they have done. Like the abridged version in America they did? No, something like this, very small. I have no objection. It is nice proposal. Like that Chinese one? First six chapters. Like that? Where is that Chinese? He feels that if we bring out a very small, compact edition, it will sell very nicely. (devotee leaves to find book) First six chapters. Wonderful. I am . . . (indistinct) . . . Chinese, but I am not able to read. First of all, we printed seven hundred copies. And now we are going to print five thousand. He said we're making the highest record of distribution. Oh, yes, for this kind of book. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission: He has to preach in every village and every town on the surface of the globe about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So our business is . . . just the example I have given, that there is fire; I do not know the language. Still, I have to call and take help. So I am doing like that. There is a story. In Calcutta when the Britishers were establishing themselves, so one clerk was working in the office and some monkey came and scattered the office files and everything. So his boss came, he asked him, "What is this? Why you . . .?" So he cannot explain, so he began to jump like monkey, that on account of the monkey coming within the room. So when the language is unknown, we have to jump and show that the monkey came. (asks professor if he has any philosophical questions) Professor Chenique thanks you very much for receiving him, and he says that he is . . . Many thanks for his coming. . . . he is very happy to see you, and that he does not have any questions. He appreciates very much the Vaiṣṇava point of view . . . Take this to the daughter. And he thinks that seeing the decline of religion in the West, he says it is very important that we are pushing on this mission as we are doing. He doesn't think that he'll be able to follow the life of the Vaiṣṇavas, because our life is too difficult. That attitude will help him. That humbleness that, "I cannot follow," that will help. He says that he has a tendency more of a jñānī , and his training has been according to Śaṅkarite and also Buddhist lines. But still he appreciates very much bhakti , and he is very happy to meet the devotees, at the same time he's very depressed to meet all these intellectuals who know so many things but cannot understand anything. *Without becoming jñānī , nobody can become bhakta . Without knowledge, if one has become bhakta , he's sentimentalist. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out this verse: samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). (French translation read by the professor) So without becoming fully in knowledge, nobody can become devotee. He asks, What about the opposite—people who become devotees without knowing anything? He's asking . . . No, devotee cannot be without knowing, knowledge. A devotee means . . . a devotee means he knows everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). This is Vedic injunction. One who knows the Absolute, he knows everything. Śrīla Prabhupāda? That verse, does that mean that one who is neophyte . . . *Neophyte is neophyte. Why do you bring him to become a devotee? A devotee is different. A "One plus one equal to two," he's not mathematician. He's learning. There is hope one day he'll be a big mathematician. There are three stages, kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī, uttama-adhikārī. So when you speak of "devotee," that is this uttama-adhikārī. So he knows everything. Rather, the so-called jñānī , he does not know, because he does not know Kṛṣṇa. The so-called jñānī , he does not know what is Personality of Godhead. He's impersonalist. Therefore he is still unaware of the Absolute Truth. Therefore he's not jñānī . His jñāna , his knowledge, is lacking. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said: If one jñānī is impersonalist, he's not jñānī . He is still unaware of the Absolute Truth. He does not know. Therefore it will take many, many births to come to the understanding of the Personality of Godhead. Therefore he's not jñānī; *he's claiming to be jñānī . Such jñānī will take many hundreds of births to come to the position of real jñānī . Find out this bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). (devotee reads in French) So*-called jñānī , after many, many births, when he understands Kṛṣṇa and surrenders to Him, then he's jñānī. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . That kind of jñānī is very, very rare. The impersonalist means ajñānī . Yes. Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa, the person. *There is another verse in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam : āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Āruhya kṛcchreṇa , by the jñāna process, is undergoing austerities and penances, one comes to the platform of paraṁ padam , monism, or platform of oneness. But because he has no shelter, he patanty adhaḥ , again comes to the material. Just like so many sannyāsīs in India, they are very learned, they have come to the platform of Brahman realization, but after some time they come to the material field for political work, for social work. They give up this world, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . If jagat is mithyā , is false, why does he come for social work? Just like these people going to the moon planet, but because they do not get any shelter, they take some sand and come back again. So what is the use of going there and spending so much money and come back with little sand, and satisfied, "Now we have studied"? Because they have no shelter. So the jñānīs , they have no shelter. Yes. They may go very high in the sky, but because they have no shelter they come back again. Punar muṣaka bhava : again became a mouse. So that is not jñānī; *that is ajñānī. Jñānī is described here, mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). Brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20) is jñānī, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā , "I have nothing to do with material world." Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54), there is no lamentation, there is no hankering. When he has attained that stage, brahma-bhūta stage, reality, then he is entrance in the bhakti . Otherwise a neophyte. He says that any person on the path of knowledge who rejects the Personality of Godhead, his knowledge is finished. That is sublime knowledge. When you talk with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, dance with Him, that is sublime perfection. Otherwise, you will have to dance with the dog. He's asking that since he first read the *Gītā* when he was very young, since that time he's been trying to compact paths of jñāna and bhakti and follow the teachings of all the great religions. And he's wondering if he should continue on that same path. *No, jñāna means that to understand the Absolute Truth. If you do not understand the Absolute Truth, what is the meaning of this jñāna ? That means knowledge is imperfect. So, but if you want to know the Absolute Truth, ultimately, then bhakti is required. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). If you want to know the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Being, then you have to go through bhakti. Jñāna, so-called jñāna, bhakti includes. Just like bhakti includes everything, but jñāna does not include bhakti . It is imperfect. In jñāna there is little touch of bhakti , but in bhakti there is full jñāna . Because unless you . . . absolute Truth is realized in three stages, brahmeti, paramātmeti, bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). So those who are on the stage of Brahman and Paramātmā, they're not in the Absolute Truth. Part of it. But when one understands Bhagavān, then he understands Paramātmā and Brahman. That is full knowledge. There are three things— sat, cit, ānanda . So Brahman realization is sat . Paramātmā realization is cit. But ānanda is not there. But if he does not get ānanda , then falls down. He says Christianity says the same thing. Not Christianity of today, but original Christianity said the same thing. *Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). This is the Vedānta . We are, as spirit soul, being part and parcel of the Supreme, ānanda is our goal, ānanda , blissfulness. But that blissfulness you cannot get simply by understanding sat-cit. You must come to the platform ānanda . That is Kṛṣṇa. So because these so-called jñānīs , they do not get ānanda , they do not have the entrance into the ānanda platform, they come to this material ānanda , this material pleasure. Therefore they take to this hospitality or opening a school or philanthropic work—another type of this material pleasure. Therefore Śaṅkarācārya recommended: *Your simply this grammatical jugglery of words will not help you. Bhaja govindam. Therefore we, govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . We, our principle, is to worship Govinda, the ādi-puruṣa, tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . *So without coming to that stage, perfection is not complete. Partial, the sac*-cid-ānanda , the brahma-anubhūti is partial, sat . "I am not matter. I am not destructible. I am eternal." This is sat . And cit , knowledge, full knowledge about spiritual . . . but ānanda you have to come to the third stage, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate . So we have to come to the stage of understanding Bhagavān; *otherwise knowledge is imperfect. Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Bhakti is defined by Rūpa Gosvāmī, jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛta , above jñāna stage. Jñāna , karma , karma stage, jñāna stage, above them. Untouched by jñāna. Karma is material, and jñāna is marginal, between material and spiritual. So you have to go above that, karma jñāna , then it is bhakti stage. Also that verse in *Bhāgavatam* : *Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti*-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ. Find out this verse. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. I don't see Bhagavān dāsa. Why? He's organizing the ceremony for tomorrow. The difference is, a bhakta , pure bhakta , he has jñāna . But a jñānī may not have bhakti . Once Professor Chenique asked me whether we thought it was possible for a Christian like himself to also realize the perfection of Vaiṣṇavism. Why not? Christianism is also Vaiṣṇavism. Christianism is Vaiṣṇavism. Anyone who accepts the supremacy of God, he's a Vaiṣṇava. So Christian, Christianity, "God is great," they say. So that is Vaiṣṇavism, "God is great." Oui, but now they say God is dead. Eh? Now the Christians say that God is dead. *Now, that is not Christianity. If you can change, there is no religion. That is mental concoction. As soon as you make change, we reject immediately, useless. Religion: the word of God. Religion means the word of God. You cannot change the word of God. If you change the word of God—that is material, that is not religion. You cannot change the word of God by your votes. That is useless. If you say that religion . . . religion means the dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Find out this verse, Sixth Canto. There is no Sixth Canto there? We have one volume, but it's the wrong volume. We have Volume Two. I think he's bringing. *Oh. The definition of religion is just like law. Law can be given by the government. You cannot make law. If you make at home some law, nobody will touch it. It is not obligatory. But if government says, "Keep to the right," it is obligatory. This is law. So religion, you cannot manufacture religion. Religion means the word of God. And if yearly or quarterly you change the words, that is not religion. That is not religion. That is mental concoction. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. No change. Others, they are interpreting in their own way. That is not Bhagavad-gītā . That is something else. (to devotee) Keep it there. He will take. In the words of God there is no question of changing. You cannot change. As soon as you make a change, immediately it is material—it has nothing to do with spiritual world. The same example: the law of government is one, and if you make change, that is not law. Government says, "Keep to the right," you have to keep to the right. You cannot make "Keep to the left," no. So that is nowadays happening—which edition of Christianity? There are so many. Therefore it is the purport of Christianity is lost. That is lost. You have, what that verse I wanted? They couldn't find the book. *Oh, they couldn't. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). This is the verse. Religion means the words given by God. But they have no idea what is God, whether He can speak or He's a dull, dumb. That is the difficulty. The Māyāvādīs, they say God has no mouth. So how He will speak? He has no eyes, He has no ear. Then who will hear my prayer? That is Māyāvādī definition. But Vedas say apāni-pāda javana gṛhīta , that both things, that He has no leg, but he can walk faster than anyone. He has no ear, but He can hear everything. Just like we have got this ear, but I cannot hear what is going on next room. But God has no ear, but He can hear here, there, everywhere. This is Vedic definition. This is Vedic definition. Śṛṇoti akarṇa . He has no ears, but He hears everything. That means that it is not the fact that He has no ear, but He has no limited ear like me. And therefore described sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1). You cannot compare with this body, because sat means eternal. So this body is not eternal. So when God has no body means He hasn't got a body like this. He is sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1). His body is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge. But He has body. You cannot say imperson. But His body is of different quality. Just like you have got body, but you cannot swim in the . . . or you cannot remain within the water. Similarly, He has got body, but not the body like this, perishable. Sac-cid-ānanda. This body is perishable. But He has got imperishable. Avyayātmā . We have to understand in that way. Not that because it is stated He has no body that means He is zero. No, He has got body, but not a body not like this. Professor Chenique's suggesting that in the Middle Ages there were many philosophers who also were researching the same questions of the body of God and how His body is different from ours, and they came to exactly the same conclusions as are mentioned in the *Bhāgavatam* . So he's suggesting that some of our devotees should read some of these books so we'll be able to in our preaching show the French people these conceptions that God has a body are not foreign conceptions, and actually even the European philosophers in the Middle Ages were saying the same things. No, you can convince by your words. It is not necessary that you have to read so many other words. If you are yourself convinced, then you can convince others by your words. The fact. The same example, when there is fire actually you can express it by any word. *He says that . . . he feels that it's because he has read all of these books during his youth, now he's able to appreciate Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Hmm? *He feels that because he read all of these other books during his youth that now he's come to the point that he can appreciate Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . *Yes. Anyone who is after truth, he'll appreciate truth. That's a fact. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1). That is the Bhāgavata beginning. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. If one is after truth, he'll appreciate truth wherever it is. Every point, from any angle of vision, those who are searching after truth, everything is explained—primarily in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and elaborately in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So about the Christian religion, what is the conception of God? *He said: "If I speak in English then I'll say that God is the father, the son and the Holy Ghost—not one person, but three persons. But if I want to say the same thing in Sanskrit, then I'll say sac*-cid-ānanda ." Three persons? God is three persons? *Father, the son and the Holy Spirit. But he says that that means the same thing, as far as he's concerned, as sac*-cid-ānanda . So why three person? God is one. Expansion, you can say expansion. Just like brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti (SB 1.2.11). The person is one. In the dictionary it is said: "God, the Supreme Being," is it not? Person is one. So person is one, now His expansion, His son, His spirit . . . what is that? Holy Spirit. That is another thing. But the person is one, the Supreme. What is the definition of God? Just see. He said that in Christianity it's more complicated than that. Yes. Person is one, but they have no idea the Supreme Person can expand. What is that? (reading from dictionary) It says: "Superhuman being, worshiped as having power over nature and human fortunes; Deity." God? Yes, this is the definition of God. "Superhuman being." Human being? "Superhuman being. Worshiped as having power over nature and over human fortunes." Demigods. No other definition? God Supreme Being is not there? "Supreme Being, creator and ruler of the universe." Yes, Supreme Being. Supreme Being means one. There cannot be many Supreme. But He can expand. That's the point. (translates for professor) *This is defined in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (BS 5.33). Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam. Ananta-rūpam : many millions of expansion. Ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam, but He's the original person. So the Supreme Being is one, but He has got multi-expansion. That is another thing. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca. He says Christianity is actually coherent, but one has to study it very deeply to understand. Hmm? He says just like Vaiṣṇavism is also coherent, but one has to study very deeply. Otherwise, one cannot see it. He said if we examine all the religions and find out the axiomatic truths of every religion, we'll see how they are all coherent. No, the thing is that religion means to understand God. If one does not understand God, then his religion is still defective. Religion means to understand God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). Just when you understand God and your relationship with God, then it is perfection of religion. Verse 6. He said that he feels very thankful that you've given him such a long darśana . He feels very happy that you've given so much enlightenment in many subjects. He's just passing through with his daughter. He'd like to stay tomorrow to see the installation of the Deities, but he has to go to a Tibetan temple in the south of France. On Saturday he has to be there, so he has to drive, and he said that he's found the Tibetans are also very good devotees. Very good. Jaya . (end) Conversation A -- August 5, 1976, New Mayapur (Conversation with Professor Francois Chenique) How are you? No, this is not him. This is a devotee. Professor's upstairs putting on a dhotī . He brought his daughter. Oh? *Professor Chenique teaches a course in Bhagavad*-gītā at the University, and he is also doing translations of Śaṅkarācārya and teaches for the Federation of yoga . He considers himself a Christian Advaitist. (break) . . . some questions regarding the publications in French. For example, on the front of Back to Godhead magazine, in the English edition and other language editions, they have kept the phrase "Godhead is light, darkness is nescience. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience." Now in French it is difficult to translate that. There is no word Godhead . And if you say "God is light," in French it sounds very impersonalist. Hmm? In French, Dieu est lumiere , "God is light." Many groups say like that. We use the word Godhead, and that distinguishes us from the other groups. Now, is the phrase very important, and do you want us to keep it on the front of the magazine? It should be there. There is little difference between "God" and "Godhead." So then we will have to try to find . . . Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ. Īśvara, more or less everyone, but īśvaraḥ paramaḥ , that is Godhead. The Māyāvādīs, they do not distinguish between one īśvara to another īśvara . That may be on the ordinary level, but there is parama īśvara. One possibility would be to say, "God the Supreme Person is light." That we can translate. God means Supreme Person. But these advaitavādī , Māyāvādīs, they have made God everyone. God means Supreme Person, that is the dictionary word. "Supreme Being." That is the dictionary meaning. God does not mean ordinary, but they have made ordinary, anyone God: "I am God, you are God, he is God." Then what is meaning of God? Therefore we say Godhead . Yes. Head man. There are many men; He is head man. Godhead word is also there in the dictionary. You find out. "Godhead—being God or a God, divine nature, Deity, the Godhead, God." The word is there, but the definition they've given is not very . . . They do not know. (laughs) They do not know what is God, what is Godhead. They think all these are fictitious. Throughout the whole world they do not know what is God. Simply they know the word, that's all. What it means they do not know. That we are giving. Here is God, Godhead. Nobody knows, nobody cares to know. That is nescience. They think it is an idea, that's all. Actually there is God, there is kingdom of God, one can go and speak with Him, dance with Him. They cannot believe there is a . . . it is beyond their poor fund of knowledge. Therefore they do not accept Kṛṣṇa as God. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ ( BG 9.11). God is the Supreme Person, Supreme Being. Actually there is place where God lives. They do not know. This is the first time, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are giving these ideas; otherwise, who knows it? Nobody knows it. The Christian or Muhammadan is . . . nobody knows. And religion means to accept God as the Supreme Person. They do not know God. Then what is meaning of religion? Religion means to accept a Supreme Person as the supreme controller. That is religion. How the Supreme Person is working in manufacturing this flower, let the scientists explain. But there is no brain? Just nicely painted, symmetrically, each flower of the same class, another class, another class, another class. (guests enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is Professor Francois Chenique and his daughter. They drove from Paris this morning to see you. Thank you very much. You can come forward. I have read your review of our book. It is very nice. (Bhūgarbha translates from this point onward) Very nice. Your study about this tradition, Indian tradition, I think he has mentioned. Indian tradition, the whole Vedic literature . . . he understands English? Yes, but I should translate. He's asked me to translate. . . . is to approach God. This is the Indian tradition. But, as you have mentioned Aurobindo's name, Aurobindo's idea was to make a better situation of this world. He wanted, by yoga practice, a better situation of the world. But our tradition says that is not possible. Bhūgarbha translating: He asks what is meant by the situation in this world. *The situation is you have to suffer. Situation is you have to suffer. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). This is a place for suffering, and that also you cannot stay here. Even if you make compromise, "All right, I shall suffer and stay," Kṛṣṇa says no. You suffer, and after you make adjustment, you will be kicked out. He said so do we have to completely leave the world? We cannot stay within the world and sanctify ourselves? You have to leave. You cannot stay. You do not want to leave, that's a fact, but you'll be kicked out. When Napoleon fought for France, he did not like to leave, but he was kicked out. I have seen in one park, there is a Napoleon Bonaparte is there—France and Napoleon identified. But France is there, Napoleon is kicked out. (laughter) He's asking that, in view of that, is it impossible to live a household life and at the same time a spiritual life? Oh, yes. You can do. I hope so, yes. Arjuna, Arjuna is a householder, he's a military man, but the greatest devotee of Kṛṣṇa. He wants you to mention something about the translations. He wants to express his opinion about the translations that the French translators are doing of your books. He is doing? Bhūgarbha He wants to give his opinion. Oh. He's asking permission to give his opinion. It would be very nice. *He says it is very interesting, very important that Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam be translated in the same way as the Gītā . The Bhagavad-gītā has been translated many times into French, but the Bhāgavatam was only translated once, and that also in the last century. This is our translation? No, it's another one. In the 1800 it was translated. And they simply translation, or elaborately like we are doing? Just translation. *Sanskrit on the left*-hand page, French on the right-hand page, but no commentaries. That is difficult to understand. Yes, no one has read. It was the full twelve cantos, but a very limited edition, and only available in library archives. No one has . . . very few people have seen it. He says he feels that the French public is very demanding in questions of editing and writing, and he feels that the French that's used in our translations should not have a smell of English. Sometimes French translations seem like English written in French. He said they should be in perfect French, and that in the French language there's a need to make things more compact and condensed. He's wondering if we can condense them more than in English. So one of us who knows French nicely, he can do that. But there is no difference. They are taking the ideas from English and translating. He says, Professor Chenique wishes to know, would it not be more valuable if our men spoke Sanskrit and could translate directly from the Sanskrit into French? *There is no much difference. Sanskrit is there and the Sanskrit translation is there. Where is the difference? We are giving the Sanskrit and then word*-to-word translation. He says that when one translates from Sanskrit into English and from English into French, that it's not exactly the same thing in French that it was in Sanskrit. He feels that it would be more . . . No, if from Sanskrit to French can be translated, I have no objection. But we have no such arrangement. We have no Sanskrit scholars in French yet, no. Not only scholar. Not only scholar, he must be a realized soul. Simply scholarship will not help. Simply scholarship will not help. There are many Sanskrit scholars in India. There are many Sanskrit scholars, original Sanskrit scholars in India—they cannot understand Bhāgavata . Professor Chenique's point is that we are seeking to introduce these books on a university level, and there's a certain standard that must be met. What is that standard? He's just saying that the style of French, he feels that it's too many words. French . . . he must be French, expert in language, at the same time, a devotee. Then he can express. Otherwise not. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's secretary, Svarūpa Dāmodara, he asked that Brahmin, bhāgavata paḍā giyā bhāgavata sthāne : "Go and study Bhāgavata from bhāgavata ." I have discussed this in the beginning of translation of Bhāgavata . So Bhāgavata , that is the limit of education. Vidyā bhāgavata vadhiḥ . One has to study and take education up to *Bhāgavatam* . That is, if one understands *Bhāgavatam* , he's finished his education. He agrees. He's just saying that he wishes—he's not criticizing in any way—but he wants that your books have a better audience, then more people will accept them. And he feels that if the French, the way that the French has been written, is changed, we'll have a better audience, it will reach higher. *But that is from scholarship point of view. But our point is this Bhāgavata must be presented by bhāgavata . And there is no much scholarship required. Just like Bhāgavata begins with the words janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). This Sanskrit word means the Absolute Truth is that from where everything emanates. Now, that Absolute Truth further explained: anvayād itarataś ca abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). That Absolute Truth is aware of everything, directly and indirectly, of all this creation. In this way, if you step*-by-step study, it is not very difficult so far the word meanings are concerned, but it is a question of realization. Unless one is realized, he cannot explain properly. That is the secret. Therefore we have given the life of Caitanya Mahāprabhu in our Bhāgavatam because He's living Bhāgavatam . Janadrādhi: His point Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that your purports—you are repeating teachings, but this is wanted. His point is that in the French language, the French language cannot accept such repetitions. So he's asking if you could compact more of your purports. But we want to translate your purports with the repetitions, because we know they are wanted. *The English comment*-purport that you give very often will repeat one point for a clear understanding to the reader. Stylistically, in French, this is difficult. It is not the accepted standard. French is generally more compact, something is said only one time. So Professor Chenique is hoping that he will see our future translations a better French style in the translation. And Janadrādhi, who is the translator, one of our translators, explains that our point is we wish to keep your intention by repeating the point so that the reader will understand, because it is being said several times. *That is the system in Vedic ways. Just like you see Bhagavad*-gītā , in different way Kṛṣṇa has explained the immortality of the soul. You take Bhagavad-gītā , that portion. Find out that. What is that verse? Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit ? Before that. Describes negatively in different ways of understanding the soul. Yes, positively, negatively. (French translation) The same thing is being explained in a different way. The question seems to be a very technical one of just French language. He's not objecting to the . . . I've no experience of the French language. I am talking of the Sanskrit language. (laughter) If we give him one purport and see how he would change it. There are so many purports you can. (professor reads one purport in French) He said that that one was all right. (laughter) *I was, up to recent time, I was commenting the Bhagavad*-gītā in the camping. For eleven years every summer I am commenting the Gītā in the camping. And I commend very warmly this edition of the Bhagavad-gītā . I think it's the best that you may find in France. But when I'm reading the commentary for my students, I find some sentences which are not good French, I think because it is not a very good style, and I hope it won't be that matter with . . . (French) Perhaps Professor Chenique could go over our translations and make any suggestions. I have no objection. *Professor Chenique is offering to re*-read our publications, to read them, and when he sees something he thinks can be corrected, he will make some indication. I have no objection. It is welcome. *(devotee enters) This is Hayeśvara, Hayeśvara dāsa, in charge of the Dutch publications, Dutch translator. He has done the Bhagavad*-gītā , this edition, in Dutch. Jaya . Thank you very much. This is the Dutch translation. Professor Chenique made the comment . . . The idea is, suppose I am in France. I do not know French language, but there is fire in my room, and I have to call my neighbors. So somehow or other I call and take their help. (laughter) *Professor Chenique wishes to know whether we cannot do one very small pocketbook edition (of Bhagavad*-gītā ) that will sell very inexpensively. Something like I think in India they have done. Like the abridged version in America they did? No, something like this, very small. I have no objection. It is nice proposal. Like that Chinese one? First six chapters. Like that? Where is that Chinese? He feels that if we bring out a very small, compact edition, it will sell very nicely. (devotee leaves to find book) First six chapters. Wonderful. I am . . . (indistinct) . . . Chinese, but I am not able to read. First of all, we printed seven hundred copies. And now we are going to print five thousand. He said we're making the highest record of distribution. Oh, yes, for this kind of book. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission: He has to preach in every village and every town on the surface of the globe about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So our business is . . . just the example I have given, that there is fire; I do not know the language. Still, I have to call and take help. So I am doing like that. There is a story. In Calcutta when the Britishers were establishing themselves, so one clerk was working in the office and some monkey came and scattered the office files and everything. So his boss came, he asked him, "What is this? Why you . . .?" So he cannot explain, so he began to jump like monkey, that on account of the monkey coming within the room. So when the language is unknown, we have to jump and show that the monkey came. (asks professor if he has any philosophical questions) Professor Chenique thanks you very much for receiving him, and he says that he is . . . Many thanks for his coming. . . . he is very happy to see you, and that he does not have any questions. He appreciates very much the Vaiṣṇava point of view . . . Take this to the daughter. And he thinks that seeing the decline of religion in the West, he says it is very important that we are pushing on this mission as we are doing. He doesn't think that he'll be able to follow the life of the Vaiṣṇavas, because our life is too difficult. That attitude will help him. That humbleness that, "I cannot follow," that will help. He says that he has a tendency more of a jñānī , and his training has been according to Śaṅkarite and also Buddhist lines. But still he appreciates very much bhakti , and he is very happy to meet the devotees, at the same time he's very depressed to meet all these intellectuals who know so many things but cannot understand anything. *Without becoming jñānī , nobody can become bhakta . Without knowledge, if one has become bhakta , he's sentimentalist. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out this verse: samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). (French translation read by the professor) So without becoming fully in knowledge, nobody can become devotee. He asks, What about the opposite—people who become devotees without knowing anything? He's asking . . . No, devotee cannot be without knowing, knowledge. A devotee means . . . a devotee means he knows everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). This is Vedic injunction. One who knows the Absolute, he knows everything. Śrīla Prabhupāda? That verse, does that mean that one who is neophyte . . . *Neophyte is neophyte. Why do you bring him to become a devotee? A devotee is different. A "One plus one equal to two," he's not mathematician. He's learning. There is hope one day he'll be a big mathematician. There are three stages, kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī, uttama-adhikārī. So when you speak of "devotee," that is this uttama-adhikārī. So he knows everything. Rather, the so-called jñānī , he does not know, because he does not know Kṛṣṇa. The so-called jñānī , he does not know what is Personality of Godhead. He's impersonalist. Therefore he is still unaware of the Absolute Truth. Therefore he's not jñānī . His jñāna , his knowledge, is lacking. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said: If one jñānī is impersonalist, he's not jñānī . He is still unaware of the Absolute Truth. He does not know. Therefore it will take many, many births to come to the understanding of the Personality of Godhead. Therefore he's not jñānī; *he's claiming to be jñānī . Such jñānī will take many hundreds of births to come to the position of real jñānī . Find out this bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). (devotee reads in French) So*-called jñānī , after many, many births, when he understands Kṛṣṇa and surrenders to Him, then he's jñānī. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . That kind of jñānī is very, very rare. The impersonalist means ajñānī . Yes. Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa, the person. *There is another verse in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam : āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Āruhya kṛcchreṇa , by the jñāna process, is undergoing austerities and penances, one comes to the platform of paraṁ padam , monism, or platform of oneness. But because he has no shelter, he patanty adhaḥ , again comes to the material. Just like so many sannyāsīs in India, they are very learned, they have come to the platform of Brahman realization, but after some time they come to the material field for political work, for social work. They give up this world, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . If jagat is mithyā , is false, why does he come for social work? Just like these people going to the moon planet, but because they do not get any shelter, they take some sand and come back again. So what is the use of going there and spending so much money and come back with little sand, and satisfied, "Now we have studied"? Because they have no shelter. So the jñānīs , they have no shelter. Yes. They may go very high in the sky, but because they have no shelter they come back again. Punar muṣaka bhava : again became a mouse. So that is not jñānī; *that is ajñānī. Jñānī is described here, mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). Brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20) is jñānī, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā , "I have nothing to do with material world." Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54), there is no lamentation, there is no hankering. When he has attained that stage, brahma-bhūta stage, reality, then he is entrance in the bhakti . Otherwise a neophyte. He says that any person on the path of knowledge who rejects the Personality of Godhead, his knowledge is finished. That is sublime knowledge. When you talk with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, dance with Him, that is sublime perfection. Otherwise, you will have to dance with the dog. He's asking that since he first read the *Gītā* when he was very young, since that time he's been trying to compact paths of jñāna and bhakti and follow the teachings of all the great religions. And he's wondering if he should continue on that same path. *No, jñāna means that to understand the Absolute Truth. If you do not understand the Absolute Truth, what is the meaning of this jñāna ? That means knowledge is imperfect. So, but if you want to know the Absolute Truth, ultimately, then bhakti is required. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). If you want to know the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Being, then you have to go through bhakti. Jñāna, so-called jñāna, bhakti includes. Just like bhakti includes everything, but jñāna does not include bhakti . It is imperfect. In jñāna there is little touch of bhakti , but in bhakti there is full jñāna . Because unless you . . . absolute Truth is realized in three stages, brahmeti, paramātmeti, bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). So those who are on the stage of Brahman and Paramātmā, they're not in the Absolute Truth. Part of it. But when one understands Bhagavān, then he understands Paramātmā and Brahman. That is full knowledge. There are three things— sat, cit, ānanda . So Brahman realization is sat . Paramātmā realization is cit. But ānanda is not there. But if he does not get ānanda , then falls down. He says Christianity says the same thing. Not Christianity of today, but original Christianity said the same thing. *Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). This is the Vedānta . We are, as spirit soul, being part and parcel of the Supreme, ānanda is our goal, ānanda , blissfulness. But that blissfulness you cannot get simply by understanding sat-cit. You must come to the platform ānanda . That is Kṛṣṇa. So because these so-called jñānīs , they do not get ānanda , they do not have the entrance into the ānanda platform, they come to this material ānanda , this material pleasure. Therefore they take to this hospitality or opening a school or philanthropic work—another type of this material pleasure. Therefore Śaṅkarācārya recommended: *Your simply this grammatical jugglery of words will not help you. Bhaja govindam. Therefore we, govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . We, our principle, is to worship Govinda, the ādi-puruṣa, tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . *So without coming to that stage, perfection is not complete. Partial, the sac*-cid-ānanda , the brahma-anubhūti is partial, sat . "I am not matter. I am not destructible. I am eternal." This is sat . And cit , knowledge, full knowledge about spiritual . . . but ānanda you have to come to the third stage, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate . So we have to come to the stage of understanding Bhagavān; *otherwise knowledge is imperfect. Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Bhakti is defined by Rūpa Gosvāmī, jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛta , above jñāna stage. Jñāna , karma , karma stage, jñāna stage, above them. Untouched by jñāna. Karma is material, and jñāna is marginal, between material and spiritual. So you have to go above that, karma jñāna , then it is bhakti stage. Also that verse in *Bhāgavatam* : *Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti*-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ. Find out this verse. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. I don't see Bhagavān dāsa. Why? He's organizing the ceremony for tomorrow. The difference is, a bhakta , pure bhakta , he has jñāna . But a jñānī may not have bhakti . Once Professor Chenique asked me whether we thought it was possible for a Christian like himself to also realize the perfection of Vaiṣṇavism. Why not? Christianism is also Vaiṣṇavism. Christianism is Vaiṣṇavism. Anyone who accepts the supremacy of God, he's a Vaiṣṇava. So Christian, Christianity, "God is great," they say. So that is Vaiṣṇavism, "God is great." Oui, but now they say God is dead. Eh? Now the Christians say that God is dead. *Now, that is not Christianity. If you can change, there is no religion. That is mental concoction. As soon as you make change, we reject immediately, useless. Religion: the word of God. Religion means the word of God. You cannot change the word of God. If you change the word of God—that is material, that is not religion. You cannot change the word of God by your votes. That is useless. If you say that religion . . . religion means the dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Find out this verse, Sixth Canto. There is no Sixth Canto there? We have one volume, but it's the wrong volume. We have Volume Two. I think he's bringing. *Oh. The definition of religion is just like law. Law can be given by the government. You cannot make law. If you make at home some law, nobody will touch it. It is not obligatory. But if government says, "Keep to the right," it is obligatory. This is law. So religion, you cannot manufacture religion. Religion means the word of God. And if yearly or quarterly you change the words, that is not religion. That is not religion. That is mental concoction. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. No change. Others, they are interpreting in their own way. That is not Bhagavad-gītā . That is something else. (to devotee) Keep it there. He will take. In the words of God there is no question of changing. You cannot change. As soon as you make a change, immediately it is material—it has nothing to do with spiritual world. The same example: the law of government is one, and if you make change, that is not law. Government says, "Keep to the right," you have to keep to the right. You cannot make "Keep to the left," no. So that is nowadays happening—which edition of Christianity? There are so many. Therefore it is the purport of Christianity is lost. That is lost. You have, what that verse I wanted? They couldn't find the book. *Oh, they couldn't. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). This is the verse. Religion means the words given by God. But they have no idea what is God, whether He can speak or He's a dull, dumb. That is the difficulty. The Māyāvādīs, they say God has no mouth. So how He will speak? He has no eyes, He has no ear. Then who will hear my prayer? That is Māyāvādī definition. But Vedas say apāni-pāda javana gṛhīta , that both things, that He has no leg, but he can walk faster than anyone. He has no ear, but He can hear everything. Just like we have got this ear, but I cannot hear what is going on next room. But God has no ear, but He can hear here, there, everywhere. This is Vedic definition. This is Vedic definition. Śṛṇoti akarṇa . He has no ears, but He hears everything. That means that it is not the fact that He has no ear, but He has no limited ear like me. And therefore described sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1). You cannot compare with this body, because sat means eternal. So this body is not eternal. So when God has no body means He hasn't got a body like this. He is sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1). His body is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge. But He has body. You cannot say imperson. But His body is of different quality. Just like you have got body, but you cannot swim in the . . . or you cannot remain within the water. Similarly, He has got body, but not the body like this, perishable. Sac-cid-ānanda. This body is perishable. But He has got imperishable. Avyayātmā . We have to understand in that way. Not that because it is stated He has no body that means He is zero. No, He has got body, but not a body not like this. Professor Chenique's suggesting that in the Middle Ages there were many philosophers who also were researching the same questions of the body of God and how His body is different from ours, and they came to exactly the same conclusions as are mentioned in the *Bhāgavatam* . So he's suggesting that some of our devotees should read some of these books so we'll be able to in our preaching show the French people these conceptions that God has a body are not foreign conceptions, and actually even the European philosophers in the Middle Ages were saying the same things. No, you can convince by your words. It is not necessary that you have to read so many other words. If you are yourself convinced, then you can convince others by your words. The fact. The same example, when there is fire actually you can express it by any word. *He says that . . . he feels that it's because he has read all of these books during his youth, now he's able to appreciate Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Hmm? *He feels that because he read all of these other books during his youth that now he's come to the point that he can appreciate Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . *Yes. Anyone who is after truth, he'll appreciate truth. That's a fact. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1). That is the Bhāgavata beginning. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. If one is after truth, he'll appreciate truth wherever it is. Every point, from any angle of vision, those who are searching after truth, everything is explained—primarily in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and elaborately in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So about the Christian religion, what is the conception of God? *He said: "If I speak in English then I'll say that God is the father, the son and the Holy Ghost—not one person, but three persons. But if I want to say the same thing in Sanskrit, then I'll say sac*-cid-ānanda ." Three persons? God is three persons? *Father, the son and the Holy Spirit. But he says that that means the same thing, as far as he's concerned, as sac*-cid-ānanda . So why three person? God is one. Expansion, you can say expansion. Just like brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti (SB 1.2.11). The person is one. In the dictionary it is said: "God, the Supreme Being," is it not? Person is one. So person is one, now His expansion, His son, His spirit . . . what is that? Holy Spirit. That is another thing. But the person is one, the Supreme. What is the definition of God? Just see. He said that in Christianity it's more complicated than that. Yes. Person is one, but they have no idea the Supreme Person can expand. What is that? (reading from dictionary) It says: "Superhuman being, worshiped as having power over nature and human fortunes; Deity." God? Yes, this is the definition of God. "Superhuman being." Human being? "Superhuman being. Worshiped as having power over nature and over human fortunes." Demigods. No other definition? God Supreme Being is not there? "Supreme Being, creator and ruler of the universe." Yes, Supreme Being. Supreme Being means one. There cannot be many Supreme. But He can expand. That's the point. (translates for professor) *This is defined in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (BS 5.33). Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam. Ananta-rūpam : many millions of expansion. Ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam, but He's the original person. So the Supreme Being is one, but He has got multi-expansion. That is another thing. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca. He says Christianity is actually coherent, but one has to study it very deeply to understand. Hmm? He says just like Vaiṣṇavism is also coherent, but one has to study very deeply. Otherwise, one cannot see it. He said if we examine all the religions and find out the axiomatic truths of every religion, we'll see how they are all coherent. No, the thing is that religion means to understand God. If one does not understand God, then his religion is still defective. Religion means to understand God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). Just when you understand God and your relationship with God, then it is perfection of religion. Verse 6. He said that he feels very thankful that you've given him such a long darśana . He feels very happy that you've given so much enlightenment in many subjects. He's just passing through with his daughter. He'd like to stay tomorrow to see the installation of the Deities, but he has to go to a Tibetan temple in the south of France. On Saturday he has to be there, so he has to drive, and he said that he's found the Tibetans are also very good devotees. Very good. Jaya . (end) Conversation -- August 7, 1976, Tehran These are all local fruits? Or imported? Mostly local. Now we have a lot of local fruits. You grow banana also? No, the banana is imported. From South America, they bring bananas . . . (indistinct) Grapes? Grapes you have got. Yes. Grapes, apple. Where is your eldest child? This is Candramukhī. Oh. Oh, I saw you in Los Angeles? Yes. You have got two or three girls? Just two. Two. Is there arrangement for preparing khicuṛi with green peas? Mung . With mung ? No, green peas. With green peas. With green peas. Yes. Oh. So make little khicuṛi and curry and okra vegetable. All right. We have chaturi and paratha . Do you want that also? Oh, you have already made? But I can make khicuṛi , that's all right. Yes, we can make some khicuṛi . Make some khicuṛi , and then whenever you can. Oh. I'll take also little paratha . Where is bathroom? There's another room, for resting. For resting. And you can go out this door, just there and bathroom is on the other side of this resting room. That is all right. Let me show you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yes. This is the key to this cabinet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I put the bag in it. (break) . . . very expensive. This is a rented house? Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. What is the rent? The rent now it is twelve hundred dollars. But of course everything is now much more expensive. So I was negotiating in New York for better arrangements, because in Iran price is going up and up and up. And I told my company that they should buy one house. Here. Yes. And they have agreed. So there will be, be that house. We will buy something like this for Kṛṣṇa. This is very nice. And also we have also saved some money, we'll buy a temple also in addition to that. No, this is very nice. Dayānanda, do you like it? Yes. It is very nice place, private. Everything is so nice. In the winter, what is the temperature? Very cold. Very cold. Yes, it snows. Like Vṛndāvana. Isn't it like? It's colder than Vṛndāvana. It don't snow in Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana, I don't think less than fifty. It sometimes gets colder, I think. Nowadays anyway. Here it gets ten, fifteen. But there is no snow in Vṛndāvana. We have plenty of snow here. We're very high. We're six thousand feet above sea level. We've got everything. Has it come in? Yes. Who has come? Just Harikeśa and myself. Oh, yes. So everything is clear? The luggage and everything is here. I'll go now and see to it. Jaya . So I am also very happy. Dayānanda, you are here, and you can have more facilities. You family men, you require some money also. So your present situation is very nice? Yes. What they are paying you? They are paying . . . I bring home about one thousand dollars per month. After deducting. After deducting taxes. It is better than USA. You were getting six hundred there? Yes. So you are getting more? Why Gargamuni advised you to give up? I chastised him, "Why you have given him such advice? He's a gṛhastha , he must have some money. He has to take care of the children." Anyway, you have got better job now and better service also. Kṛṣṇa has rewarded you for your service. Stick to it. Don't . . . if you like to serve here, you can be permanently settled. No, what is their rules? It is quite easy, because they need . . . Service. . . . foreigners to come and work here. So that is very good. So they give visas very easily for working. Oh. Especially to Americans? Yes. *That's very good opportunity. Bring more Americans and start this movement nicely. Not necessarily that we have to establish a temple. We want to preach our philosophy. That is most important. Bhāgavata*-mārga. There are two ways: bhāgavata-mārga and pāñcarātriki. The bhāgavata-mārga is more important than pāñcarātriki. Pāñcarātriki is Deity worship. So do you meet many intelligent men here? No. Not very many. Some intelligent. People are working very hard for money, and they're very materialistic. That is everywhere in the eastern part of the world. They are after money. Yes and the foreigners who come here also, they are materialistic also. Everywhere materialistic. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye ( BG 7.3). Spiritualistic means siddhi , perfection. Who cares for perfection? Bring money and enjoy. That's all. Who cares for perfection? They do not know what is perfection. They think that you get money, you live comfortably as far as possible, and after death, everything's finished. Is it not? Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is the philosophy. Who cares to know that there is life after death and better life, better planet, better world? This is not at all good; it is full of miseries. They are driving all day, car, but they do not think it is tiresome. They think it is pleasure. To have a car and drive whole day, they do not feel that it is tiresome. They think, "I have got a car. I'm driving, people are seeing. It is pleasure." It is madness, how they can enjoy a city like that. *But we do not deprecate. We simply say that do whatever you like, but do not forget your real business, self*-realization, ātma-tattvam. Self-realization, that is required. And if we live like cats and dogs and again become cats and dogs and pigs, that is not success. But there is chance if one does not know ātma-tattva. Nature's law will work. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). (background discussion about moving furniture) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So, your son is sleeping? This is not my son. Oh. This is salt, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is watermelon. This is a different kind of melon. You prefer it here? This is local product? Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Take some? Yes, please, please, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If you like little salt on it? Can I have the key? To lock up the passports and . . . What is that? This is a drink, Śrīla Prabhupāda, made of some melon, different melon. This is also local? Yes, that is very local. Is that sweet, Śrīla Prabhupāda? No, it is nice. It can become very sweet. Sometimes it is very, very sweet. Very nice. (aside to Nandarāṇī's daughters) Candramukhī? Vilāsinī? So, very nice. Like bael . In India, like bael . So nice fruits. Can I serve the devotees, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Oh, yes. It is so nice. You can distribute this also. All the devotees. Do they eat meat very much? Yes, they are learning. Before ten years ago, they were . . . everyone was very good Muslim, and they would eat a little bit of sheep. But today they are learning the . . . Beef. Beef. Because they think the more they are like Americans, the better they are. But they have so many fruits and vegetables here, the land gives them so many wonderful things, but they think that they must eat meat. There is an old poem, an old epic poem that we were told about that states that many thousands of years ago the Iranians were all vegetarian. It is Āryan culture. Iranian means Āryan. It is a apabhraṁśa of Ārya, Irāya . And they are called Parsis. Parsis still, those who fled away from this place, they are just like Hindu . They have got sacred thread. In India. They keep a sacred fire. Still there are, here? A few, a few temples here. They are fire worshipers, Sūrya . . . (indistinct) . . . out of them. Their marriage ceremony is just like Hindus. (to guests entering) Namaskāra , Hare Kṛṣṇa. The language is very . . . You have taken prasādam ? You have food? Prasādam ? Yes. Their whole language here is very similar to Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You can read this also. This is in Sanskrit. (to Iranian student) You understand English? English. Very good. Your country is very nice. So nice food, fruits. Yes. Nice to meet you. *Formerly, from Kashmir to central Asia, it was known as Bhū*-svarga, especially Kashmir. Bhū-svarga. Heaven on earth. Yes, heaven on the earthly planet. *We noticed that in one of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam s you mentioned that Kardama Muni had his āśrama . . . Kaśyapa Muni I mean, on the shore of the Caspian Sea, which is just an hour from here by plane—it's ninety kilometers. Yes, yes, Caspian Sea. (drinking juice) This is made from a kind of fruit. Yes, a kind of melon. They are saying that the moon is full of dust. And dust is so brilliant? We have to believe this? The rascals, they are making this proposal. Huh? What do you think? I don't think they know actually what they are talking about, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yes, actually that is fact. It is similar planet like the sun, but it is surrounded by cold atmosphere, therefore it is so pleasing. And because it is far away from the sun—the distance between moon and earth is more than the distance between the sun and the earth—therefore sun looks bigger and it looks smaller. We are contemplating having a planetarium with electric arrangement. You'll have to work. The whole planetary system is moving from east to west, and the sun, moon and the seven . . . (indistinct) . . . they are up and down. (to child) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. He can speak? No, just a few words. Two years? Almost. Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have got any fruit tree in the garden? Some pear trees, some apple. Peach? No. No peach. We used to have a cherry tree, but it died. We also have a pomegranate tree. Good pomegranate? Not very good. These boys, do they inquire about something? (coughing heavily) Yes. Hussein Prabhu has been coming here for . . . Bring some spittoon. You can keep it here. They understand English? They understand English, yes, some English. Hussein Prabhu has been coming here for a few months. He's chanting. He's a very, very pious boy. Before he came here, he was chanting names of God and following the four regulations. Very good. Very nice. And he is coming recently. He's also interested. He is a vegetarian, does not eat meat, and he's following the four regulations, and he's starting to chant now. And he . . . He's been coming for two, three months. He's chanting sixteen rounds, and as I said, before he came here, he was chanting various names of God as they are prescribed in Koran. And when he saw that we were chanting names of God, he immediately became attracted. He said: "This is right." Because he knows also that from Koran he should chant the names of God. Oh. In the Koran chanting is recommended? Yes, definitely. *The more you chant God's name, your heart becomes cleansed. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates as Prabhupāda speaks) Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). So God has many names. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended God's name must be . . . it doesn't matter the language is different. Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktiḥ (CC Antya 20.16). In each name the full power of God is there. (speaks in Arabic) *Hussein Prabhu says that his goal in life is to translate your Bhagavad*-gītā . Oh, very good. Yes, this is Hussein. He's a very, very sincere boy. So do it immediately. Somebody, some Arabian student made some translation? Yes, there was some translations of *Īśopaniṣad* . . . Where he is, that boy? . . . into Arabic. He's in Europe. He is Palestinian boy. He is asking how should this translation be done? What is your recommendation, if you have any suggestion? Of course, I am not well versed in your language, but you simply, if you understand that English and translate it into Parsi, that will do. As it is, you translate. Don't make any change. Then it will be all right. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates) And when there is difficulty, you can ask Ātreya Ṛṣi. Harikeśa. (pause) Where is Harikeśa? Harikeśa? (Ātreya Ṛṣi leaves to find him) Where he is? Mustafa asked a question: How to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness in this country? It seems difficult to him, because the people's reaction . . . it's very foreign. The outward appearance of devotees is very strange to them. He wants to know how this philosophy can be spread here. The first thing is that what do you mean by Kṛṣṇa. That is to be understood. "Kṛṣṇa" means God. So if you have no objection to chant the name of God, then there is no difference of opinion. Now first of all I may ask you, "What do you mean by God?" You are chanting the holy name of God, and people may ask you, "What do you mean by God?" Because especially nowadays . . . (aside) No, there is matches? Give this. (devotees lighting incense) Come near. So first question will be, "What do you mean by God?" If I, I or anybody, ask you, "What do you mean by God?" I cannot explain, because now . . . But that you must explain. If you are chanting the name of God, then you must know what do you mean by God. Mean, when I feel, I will get spiritual, my feeling No, no the spiritual, what do you mean by spiritual? Means I put everything is bad and dirty inside, and I feel it's dirty really, and I make it out, all of them. What is inside and what is outside? Outside? I don't know what is inside. Then you do not know. You do not know outside, inside? When I do wrong, for example. When I do lie, when I do something, when I see wrong. Wrong . . . one thing is wrong in my country, and that is right in your country. Just like animal slaughter is wrong according to our Vedic civilization. Unnecessary animal slaughter is forbidden. But in your country or in other Western countries, they kill so many animals. So what is wrong, what is right? Who will decide? That's the reason I don't kill animals and I don't eat meat, for three years now. That's very good, very good idea. (Ātreya Ṛṣi explains what Prabhupāda is asking to Mustafa in Persian) When we want God, to understand, we must try to understand what is God, what do you mean by God. The God definition is given in the dictionary . . . what is that? "Supreme being." Supreme controller? "Supreme controller." So how do you understand that supreme controller? What do you mean by supreme controller? In this way we should try to understand what is the idea carried by the word "God." We have got . . . in our Vedic language, we have got definition of God, that, "God" means He must possess all the wealth. Just like in Persia you have got so many wealthy persons, but nobody can claim, even the Shah cannot claim, that he possesses the all the wealth. That is not possible, Persia. Do you follow what I say? (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates throughout) So this is one of the items, that God is the richest, or He possesses all the wealth. Similarly, He possesses all the strength, He possesses all the beauty, He possesses all knowledge, and He is the renouncer also, the most exalted renouncer. Although He possesses so many things, He is renounced. Just like this universe is the property of God, but He has given to you, all the living entity, "Now you wanted to enjoy, enjoy it to your best capacity." He doesn't interfere. "All right, you go on." And we are trying to enjoy this material world to our best capacity. Just like in Iran, you are trying to enjoy by exploiting the oil. Similarly, somebody is exploiting. It is all God's property. He doesn't interfere. "All right, enjoy." This is renouncement. His property, He does not come to interfere. God knows how this universe is made. So many big, big scientists, they are trying to understand what is the constitution, how this universe is made, how it is created. Nobody knows, but He knows. Just like you have got this body, I have got this body, but we do not know everything of this body. I do not know how many hairs are there. Is it not? So, so many things. I am eating, and it is transformed into blood, and it is directed towards brain, towards other parts of the body, and we are working very strong. But we do not know how things are happening, although I am claiming I am this body, "I am my body." But God knows every particular, any . . . anvayād itarataḥ (SB 1.1.1). How the stone is made, He knows. How this flower is colored, He knows. That is called wise, wisdom. Vedāhaṁ sarvam . . . saramam etam. He knows. That is God. He is the possessor of all wealth, all knowledge, all beauty, all strength, all influence. In this way you have to understand God. They've brought the prasādam up now or? You can bring here. Who is there in the bathroom? They're just cleaning it out. They're giving you the big bathroom because it has a Western toilet and a nice shower and separate everything. It's very nice. And we'll use the small one. They're just cleaning it now. If you want, you can use. Close this door; otherwise if you come there, it will be disturbance. Nandarāṇī's making khicuṛi with the peas and okra. Okra could be done separately. Let her do independently. She's doing both. She first mixed it, now she's also making separate. Oh. Anyway, let her do it. She was cooking for me in Māyāpur. I heard you liked it very much. Yes. The more you become eager to know God, God will reveal Himself. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates as Prabhupāda speaks) From our side, we should not be stereotyped. People in different sects of religion, they say: "We believe." But they do not want to go further than they believe. That is very difficult. You must be dynamic and progressive, then you will have. I have talked with many sects, especially Christian priests. They will say: "We believe"—no more further than that. That's right. So knowledge is not like that. Knowledge must be progressive. "We believe there is no soul of the animal"—bās, fixed up. You believe like a rascal, so I shall remain rascal. What is this? We should be progressive. That is wanted. Of course, in the lower stage one may have a type of belief, but if you want more clearly, you must be progressive. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates) According to Vedānta system, the life, human life, is only for inquiring about Brahman: athāto brahma jijñāsā. We shall talk again. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- August 7, 1976, Tehran These are all local fruits? Or imported? Mostly local. Now we have a lot of local fruits. You grow banana also? No, the banana is imported. From South America, they bring bananas . . . (indistinct) Grapes? Grapes you have got. Yes. Grapes, apple. Where is your eldest child? This is Candramukhī. Oh. Oh, I saw you in Los Angeles? Yes. You have got two or three girls? Just two. Two. Is there arrangement for preparing khicuṛi with green peas? Mung . With mung ? No, green peas. With green peas. With green peas. Yes. Oh. So make little khicuṛi and curry and okra vegetable. All right. We have chaturi and paratha . Do you want that also? Oh, you have already made? But I can make khicuṛi , that's all right. Yes, we can make some khicuṛi . Make some khicuṛi , and then whenever you can. Oh. I'll take also little paratha . Where is bathroom? There's another room, for resting. For resting. And you can go out this door, just there and bathroom is on the other side of this resting room. That is all right. Let me show you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yes. This is the key to this cabinet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I put the bag in it. (break) . . . very expensive. This is a rented house? Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. What is the rent? The rent now it is twelve hundred dollars. But of course everything is now much more expensive. So I was negotiating in New York for better arrangements, because in Iran price is going up and up and up. And I told my company that they should buy one house. Here. Yes. And they have agreed. So there will be, be that house. We will buy something like this for Kṛṣṇa. This is very nice. And also we have also saved some money, we'll buy a temple also in addition to that. No, this is very nice. Dayānanda, do you like it? Yes. It is very nice place, private. Everything is so nice. In the winter, what is the temperature? Very cold. Very cold. Yes, it snows. Like Vṛndāvana. Isn't it like? It's colder than Vṛndāvana. It don't snow in Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana, I don't think less than fifty. It sometimes gets colder, I think. Nowadays anyway. Here it gets ten, fifteen. But there is no snow in Vṛndāvana. We have plenty of snow here. We're very high. We're six thousand feet above sea level. We've got everything. Has it come in? Yes. Who has come? Just Harikeśa and myself. Oh, yes. So everything is clear? The luggage and everything is here. I'll go now and see to it. Jaya . So I am also very happy. Dayānanda, you are here, and you can have more facilities. You family men, you require some money also. So your present situation is very nice? Yes. What they are paying you? They are paying . . . I bring home about one thousand dollars per month. After deducting. After deducting taxes. It is better than USA. You were getting six hundred there? Yes. So you are getting more? Why Gargamuni advised you to give up? I chastised him, "Why you have given him such advice? He's a gṛhastha , he must have some money. He has to take care of the children." Anyway, you have got better job now and better service also. Kṛṣṇa has rewarded you for your service. Stick to it. Don't . . . if you like to serve here, you can be permanently settled. No, what is their rules? It is quite easy, because they need . . . Service. . . . foreigners to come and work here. So that is very good. So they give visas very easily for working. Oh. Especially to Americans? Yes. *That's very good opportunity. Bring more Americans and start this movement nicely. Not necessarily that we have to establish a temple. We want to preach our philosophy. That is most important. Bhāgavata*-mārga. There are two ways: bhāgavata-mārga and pāñcarātriki. The bhāgavata-mārga is more important than pāñcarātriki. Pāñcarātriki is Deity worship. So do you meet many intelligent men here? No. Not very many. Some intelligent. People are working very hard for money, and they're very materialistic. That is everywhere in the eastern part of the world. They are after money. Yes and the foreigners who come here also, they are materialistic also. Everywhere materialistic. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye ( BG 7.3). Spiritualistic means siddhi , perfection. Who cares for perfection? Bring money and enjoy. That's all. Who cares for perfection? They do not know what is perfection. They think that you get money, you live comfortably as far as possible, and after death, everything's finished. Is it not? Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is the philosophy. Who cares to know that there is life after death and better life, better planet, better world? This is not at all good; it is full of miseries. They are driving all day, car, but they do not think it is tiresome. They think it is pleasure. To have a car and drive whole day, they do not feel that it is tiresome. They think, "I have got a car. I'm driving, people are seeing. It is pleasure." It is madness, how they can enjoy a city like that. *But we do not deprecate. We simply say that do whatever you like, but do not forget your real business, self*-realization, ātma-tattvam. Self-realization, that is required. And if we live like cats and dogs and again become cats and dogs and pigs, that is not success. But there is chance if one does not know ātma-tattva. Nature's law will work. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). (background discussion about moving furniture) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So, your son is sleeping? This is not my son. Oh. This is salt, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is watermelon. This is a different kind of melon. You prefer it here? This is local product? Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Take some? Yes, please, please, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If you like little salt on it? Can I have the key? To lock up the passports and . . . What is that? This is a drink, Śrīla Prabhupāda, made of some melon, different melon. This is also local? Yes, that is very local. Is that sweet, Śrīla Prabhupāda? No, it is nice. It can become very sweet. Sometimes it is very, very sweet. Very nice. (aside to Nandarāṇī's daughters) Candramukhī? Vilāsinī? So, very nice. Like bael . In India, like bael . So nice fruits. Can I serve the devotees, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Oh, yes. It is so nice. You can distribute this also. All the devotees. Do they eat meat very much? Yes, they are learning. Before ten years ago, they were . . . everyone was very good Muslim, and they would eat a little bit of sheep. But today they are learning the . . . Beef. Beef. Because they think the more they are like Americans, the better they are. But they have so many fruits and vegetables here, the land gives them so many wonderful things, but they think that they must eat meat. There is an old poem, an old epic poem that we were told about that states that many thousands of years ago the Iranians were all vegetarian. It is Āryan culture. Iranian means Āryan. It is a apabhraṁśa of Ārya, Irāya . And they are called Parsis. Parsis still, those who fled away from this place, they are just like Hindu . They have got sacred thread. In India. They keep a sacred fire. Still there are, here? A few, a few temples here. They are fire worshipers, Sūrya . . . (indistinct) . . . out of them. Their marriage ceremony is just like Hindus. (to guests entering) Namaskāra , Hare Kṛṣṇa. The language is very . . . You have taken prasādam ? You have food? Prasādam ? Yes. Their whole language here is very similar to Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You can read this also. This is in Sanskrit. (to Iranian student) You understand English? English. Very good. Your country is very nice. So nice food, fruits. Yes. Nice to meet you. *Formerly, from Kashmir to central Asia, it was known as Bhū*-svarga, especially Kashmir. Bhū-svarga. Heaven on earth. Yes, heaven on the earthly planet. *We noticed that in one of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam s you mentioned that Kardama Muni had his āśrama . . . Kaśyapa Muni I mean, on the shore of the Caspian Sea, which is just an hour from here by plane—it's ninety kilometers. Yes, yes, Caspian Sea. (drinking juice) This is made from a kind of fruit. Yes, a kind of melon. They are saying that the moon is full of dust. And dust is so brilliant? We have to believe this? The rascals, they are making this proposal. Huh? What do you think? I don't think they know actually what they are talking about, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yes, actually that is fact. It is similar planet like the sun, but it is surrounded by cold atmosphere, therefore it is so pleasing. And because it is far away from the sun—the distance between moon and earth is more than the distance between the sun and the earth—therefore sun looks bigger and it looks smaller. We are contemplating having a planetarium with electric arrangement. You'll have to work. The whole planetary system is moving from east to west, and the sun, moon and the seven . . . (indistinct) . . . they are up and down. (to child) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. He can speak? No, just a few words. Two years? Almost. Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have got any fruit tree in the garden? Some pear trees, some apple. Peach? No. No peach. We used to have a cherry tree, but it died. We also have a pomegranate tree. Good pomegranate? Not very good. These boys, do they inquire about something? (coughing heavily) Yes. Hussein Prabhu has been coming here for . . . Bring some spittoon. You can keep it here. They understand English? They understand English, yes, some English. Hussein Prabhu has been coming here for a few months. He's chanting. He's a very, very pious boy. Before he came here, he was chanting names of God and following the four regulations. Very good. Very nice. And he is coming recently. He's also interested. He is a vegetarian, does not eat meat, and he's following the four regulations, and he's starting to chant now. And he . . . He's been coming for two, three months. He's chanting sixteen rounds, and as I said, before he came here, he was chanting various names of God as they are prescribed in Koran. And when he saw that we were chanting names of God, he immediately became attracted. He said: "This is right." Because he knows also that from Koran he should chant the names of God. Oh. In the Koran chanting is recommended? Yes, definitely. *The more you chant God's name, your heart becomes cleansed. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates as Prabhupāda speaks) Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). So God has many names. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended God's name must be . . . it doesn't matter the language is different. Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktiḥ (CC Antya 20.16). In each name the full power of God is there. (speaks in Arabic) *Hussein Prabhu says that his goal in life is to translate your Bhagavad*-gītā . Oh, very good. Yes, this is Hussein. He's a very, very sincere boy. So do it immediately. Somebody, some Arabian student made some translation? Yes, there was some translations of *Īśopaniṣad* . . . Where he is, that boy? . . . into Arabic. He's in Europe. He is Palestinian boy. He is asking how should this translation be done? What is your recommendation, if you have any suggestion? Of course, I am not well versed in your language, but you simply, if you understand that English and translate it into Parsi, that will do. As it is, you translate. Don't make any change. Then it will be all right. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates) And when there is difficulty, you can ask Ātreya Ṛṣi. Harikeśa. (pause) Where is Harikeśa? Harikeśa? (Ātreya Ṛṣi leaves to find him) Where he is? Mustafa asked a question: How to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness in this country? It seems difficult to him, because the people's reaction . . . it's very foreign. The outward appearance of devotees is very strange to them. He wants to know how this philosophy can be spread here. The first thing is that what do you mean by Kṛṣṇa. That is to be understood. "Kṛṣṇa" means God. So if you have no objection to chant the name of God, then there is no difference of opinion. Now first of all I may ask you, "What do you mean by God?" You are chanting the holy name of God, and people may ask you, "What do you mean by God?" Because especially nowadays . . . (aside) No, there is matches? Give this. (devotees lighting incense) Come near. So first question will be, "What do you mean by God?" If I, I or anybody, ask you, "What do you mean by God?" I cannot explain, because now . . . But that you must explain. If you are chanting the name of God, then you must know what do you mean by God. Mean, when I feel, I will get spiritual, my feeling No, no the spiritual, what do you mean by spiritual? Means I put everything is bad and dirty inside, and I feel it's dirty really, and I make it out, all of them. What is inside and what is outside? Outside? I don't know what is inside. Then you do not know. You do not know outside, inside? When I do wrong, for example. When I do lie, when I do something, when I see wrong. Wrong . . . one thing is wrong in my country, and that is right in your country. Just like animal slaughter is wrong according to our Vedic civilization. Unnecessary animal slaughter is forbidden. But in your country or in other Western countries, they kill so many animals. So what is wrong, what is right? Who will decide? That's the reason I don't kill animals and I don't eat meat, for three years now. That's very good, very good idea. (Ātreya Ṛṣi explains what Prabhupāda is asking to Mustafa in Persian) When we want God, to understand, we must try to understand what is God, what do you mean by God. The God definition is given in the dictionary . . . what is that? "Supreme being." Supreme controller? "Supreme controller." So how do you understand that supreme controller? What do you mean by supreme controller? In this way we should try to understand what is the idea carried by the word "God." We have got . . . in our Vedic language, we have got definition of God, that, "God" means He must possess all the wealth. Just like in Persia you have got so many wealthy persons, but nobody can claim, even the Shah cannot claim, that he possesses the all the wealth. That is not possible, Persia. Do you follow what I say? (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates throughout) So this is one of the items, that God is the richest, or He possesses all the wealth. Similarly, He possesses all the strength, He possesses all the beauty, He possesses all knowledge, and He is the renouncer also, the most exalted renouncer. Although He possesses so many things, He is renounced. Just like this universe is the property of God, but He has given to you, all the living entity, "Now you wanted to enjoy, enjoy it to your best capacity." He doesn't interfere. "All right, you go on." And we are trying to enjoy this material world to our best capacity. Just like in Iran, you are trying to enjoy by exploiting the oil. Similarly, somebody is exploiting. It is all God's property. He doesn't interfere. "All right, enjoy." This is renouncement. His property, He does not come to interfere. God knows how this universe is made. So many big, big scientists, they are trying to understand what is the constitution, how this universe is made, how it is created. Nobody knows, but He knows. Just like you have got this body, I have got this body, but we do not know everything of this body. I do not know how many hairs are there. Is it not? So, so many things. I am eating, and it is transformed into blood, and it is directed towards brain, towards other parts of the body, and we are working very strong. But we do not know how things are happening, although I am claiming I am this body, "I am my body." But God knows every particular, any . . . anvayād itarataḥ (SB 1.1.1). How the stone is made, He knows. How this flower is colored, He knows. That is called wise, wisdom. Vedāhaṁ sarvam . . . saramam etam. He knows. That is God. He is the possessor of all wealth, all knowledge, all beauty, all strength, all influence. In this way you have to understand God. They've brought the prasādam up now or? You can bring here. Who is there in the bathroom? They're just cleaning it out. They're giving you the big bathroom because it has a Western toilet and a nice shower and separate everything. It's very nice. And we'll use the small one. They're just cleaning it now. If you want, you can use. Close this door; otherwise if you come there, it will be disturbance. Nandarāṇī's making khicuṛi with the peas and okra. Okra could be done separately. Let her do independently. She's doing both. She first mixed it, now she's also making separate. Oh. Anyway, let her do it. She was cooking for me in Māyāpur. I heard you liked it very much. Yes. The more you become eager to know God, God will reveal Himself. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates as Prabhupāda speaks) From our side, we should not be stereotyped. People in different sects of religion, they say: "We believe." But they do not want to go further than they believe. That is very difficult. You must be dynamic and progressive, then you will have. I have talked with many sects, especially Christian priests. They will say: "We believe"—no more further than that. That's right. So knowledge is not like that. Knowledge must be progressive. "We believe there is no soul of the animal"—bās, fixed up. You believe like a rascal, so I shall remain rascal. What is this? We should be progressive. That is wanted. Of course, in the lower stage one may have a type of belief, but if you want more clearly, you must be progressive. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates) According to Vedānta system, the life, human life, is only for inquiring about Brahman: athāto brahma jijñāsā. We shall talk again. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- August 8, 1976, Tehran If there are planets, Śrīla Prabhupāda, like the sun planet, where . . . We get information from the śāstra , every planet is full of life. Yes, that there is life in um, some planets. *Jana*-kīrṇa , this very word is used, jana-kīrṇa , "congested with life." And we have got description, this loka , this loka , this loka is fighting sometimes with other loka , or that . . . everything is description there. There is milk ocean, there is this ocean, that ocean, varieties of. So if we have to take these rascals' version—they're simply rogues—then the whole śāstra becomes false. The point in the śāstra is that every . . . And they will advertise that these description in the śāstras , they are all mythology. Of course, this kind of bluffing cannot go, because suppose this Mars expedition becomes a failure, like that, the same . . . it will be failure. So next time, if they propose, I think people will be hesitant to go. Simply bringing people rocks and sands, without any utility, after spending so much money. How long they can repeat this, "Yes, we went to this planet, rocks. We went to this—rocks." So we see variety. If you . . . the so many luminaries, simply rocks and sands? The moon is full of rocks, and it's so illuminating? Whole universe is illuminated so nice, moonshine. So many stars illuminating, and they're rocks and sand? We have to believe it? They are saying there is life on Mars. They are seeing microbes, small little living entities. They are detecting these with their machines. So they are seeing, there is some life. Microbes? Microbe, you know, like microscopic . . . *Why they can see only microbes, not a fully grown*-up human being? No, they are detecting through gas. They feed the microbes, and then microbes give off evacuation . . . How they can see? Suppose you see from a distant place, this planet. So how you can see within water? You can take photograph of the water, but how you can take photograph within the water? So what is the value of their taking photograph? Does the photograph takes the picture within the water? No. Then what is the use of such photograph? But they are not detecting with photographs, they are detecting with chemicals. What . . . (indistinct) . . . chemical? They say the chemicals are giving off gases when they are feeding the earth. They take the ground from Mars . . . Just see so many bogus words they manufacture to make believe. Because they are scientist, they'll talk all big, big words which we cannot understand. So you cannot argue. (talks gibberish) Like that. By common sense question, that they are simply finding out rocks and sand, and again they are saying somebody has bombed. The first . . . (coughing) If there is bomb, then there is fight; so if there is fight, there must be human being. *He was the one that told me about that, about the canyon and the bombed*-out place. Yes, I was working for USIS, US Information Service, and I had a commission to paint a large picture of this Mars landing ship, and they had information coming back that they were finding a long blockhouse with a big crater in the center, like a building that had been bombed. Fourteen kilometer crater. They had a picture like that. It appeared to be a building. But they are all cheaters. I used to live in Florida where they send up these . . . they are all drunkards. They drink alcohol, very unserious. Oh, then they can manufacture. All drunkards, they are in charge of this fighting. So Śrīla Prabhupāda, if there are some visitors, can they come up? Yes. Will we have readings, or would you like to talk with them? Let them come, we shall see. My point is, why they do not see any other spot? Only these spots are visible, where there are rocks. They say Howrah station is closed. No sane man will believe that, that Howrah station is closed. They do not want to upset the illusion that they are God, that they are the only ones in the universe. So if they find out there is life on another planet, they will not like it. If there is higher life somewhere else, they will not like that. They are always in competition. And all the higher lives are in Europe and America. Especially in America, eh? That is their mania. They do not like that there may be higher lives, you said. They like it that there may not be any higher life. That is their preconception. Yes. This is the highest here, cannot be any higher. They will not accept. Just see how much biased they are. *They cannot accept another philosophy. They will not accept philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā because it is from another country. They do not like that. Ah, now you can see their attitude. *So it is very good. On the abridged Bhagavad*-gītā we have Americans, Emerson and Thoreau, saying this is a wonderful book. That is very good, that is very impressive to Americans. They will accept if some great Americans have said. *That was my policy from the very beginning, that if the Americans accept, then my mission will be successful. And that is being done gradually, and I am insisting that preach in America vigorously. If America accept, then whole world will accept. That's a fact. Anywhere, although America may be fallen, the ideal is American, everywhere. Because they have got money. Kali*-yuga means money. If you have got money, then you have got culture, you have got education, you have got everything. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Formerly, they were attached, family, aristocracy, culture, education. Nowadays there is no such thing. Get money and you get everything. It is not? Somehow or other, if you have got control over money then you have got everything. Bring that black Bhāgavata . What is that sound coming? There is goat? I think a lamb, sheep. Lamb. Yes. They keep lambs for . . .? For sacrificing. They sacrifice at home? The Koran says that you should sacrifice the animal at home, with his head pointing toward Mecca. Huh? With the head of the animal towards Mecca. Mecca, oh. And you let the blood of the animal flow toward Mecca, and then you can eat an animal. So they keep many sheep here just for that purpose. Oh. So at least they do not recommend to purchase from the slaughterhouse. That is also good. But they have slaughterhouse. *But the Koran restricts meat*-eating. It is restriction. Yes. So this is what we explain—we say if it is good, then why is it restricted? That is good explanation. What do they say? They say, well, Muhammad did it. That's all right. But this is restriction. There is light in the veranda? Yes, there is light. Yes. So let us go so that you can sit comfortably. You can take this little pillow. Would you like a glass of water, Prabhupāda? *Yes. That janma*-acarana , that Twelfth Canto, Third Chapter. I shall like to sit down . . . (indistinct) Is that cushion all right? Now in the beginning . . . The beginning of Third Chapter? Yes. The Third Chapter begins, dṛṣṭvātmani jaye vyagrān . That's Third Chapter. Second Chapter. *Second Chapter, tataś cānu*-dinaṁ dharmaḥ. Ah. It says carma ? Cara ? Dharmaḥ cara . Oh. Now you begin that. Vittam eva , that's it. Vittam eva ? *Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ Ah. Vittam means money. So if you have got money, then you are coming from high family. There is no consideration of Brahmin, kṣatriya. If you have got money, then you are everything. Vittam eva hi ? *Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . *Ah. Janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ. That is practical, we see. If you have got money, then people will come to you, "Oh, you are so learned, you are so qualified." Just like George, or John Lennon. What qualification they have got? But people will go there and take them as very highly learned and scholar and everything. The press reporters take their opinion. But what is their qualification? The qualification, by selling some records they have got money, that's all. What is that qualification? Now of course, they are coming to—George at least—coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, from qualification point of view, they are not learned, educated in university, or they have got any spiritual asset, born Brahmin family, nothing. Simply money. We also go and flatter them to get some money. (laughs) So this is Kali-yuga. Vittam eva. If you have got money, then you have got everything. Therefore people are after so much money, after money. Vittam eva , hmm? Read that? *dharma*-nyāya . In India we have seen that you bribe the brāhmaṇas and they'll give decision in your favor. And it is experienced by everyone. In the law court you bribe even the high-court judge, he'll give judgment in your . . . that is proven. One big judge—not now, at least fifty years ago, or more than that—his business was to take bribe, high-court judge, very learned judge. He was asked. He'll give judgement if you give him ten thousand rupees. So other brother high-court judges, they knew it. So in one case he was just arranging for this, and the chief justice called him that, "You immediately resign and go home, otherwise this arrangement you have made, it will be exposed." So he had no other alternative. He immediately resigned, and on some plea like "My heart is palpitating," so in this way he left the court, and then he was never allowed again. And when his friends asked him that "Why you are doing this?" so he said, "What can I do? I have got at least ten thousand rupees' expenditure per month and I get only four thousand." That was his . . . he was very able lawyer. By private practice he was earning more, but this practice . . . and nowadays it has come to, at least in India, anywhere you go, and bribe, and you get a favorable decision. (guests arrive) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall be sitting inside or here? Wherever you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I can like anywhere. This is good, this is good. But these gentlemen? They will be . . . (indistinct) Sit down. So let them come near; our men may go there. You can sit down. Let them come forward. (discussion as guests change places) Take, give them. Yes. You can give room light also. Inside. Inside the room. That's it. So, there is introduction? Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Hamidi. He's a friend of mine at work, and he's very much is interested in both Indian and Iranian spiritual life, in culture as it is. And this is Peter. He has been coming here on Fridays. He's American? English. Yes. And he's come and taken prasādam , and we talk to him sometimes. He offers pūjā to Lord Buddha. He's worshiping Lord Buddha. He has an altar. The other boy? Siva, Mr. Siva from Malaysia. He's Hindu, I believe. And he's recently come to visit us. Next is Dr. Rulf, he is from Holland. He is an economist, and he is working here, and we have . . . I've been acquainted with him through business. And that is Reza. He has been coming here for a long time, he's been chanting. He's trying to be . . . (indistinct) . . . both? Yes. So Iranian spiritual culture and Indian spiritual culture, you told me? Yes. So first of all, what is spiritual culture? Sufism. No, not . . . just like gold. Oh, the gold . . . I'll explain. Gold, either in Iran or in India, gold is gold. You cannot say "Iranian gold" or "Indian gold." That is not possible. Similarly, when you says: "Iranian spiritual culture" and "Indian spiritual culture," the common point is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture is one. It cannot be Iranian, Indian, or anywhere belonging to some sycophant. Just like this moon. This moon is now on Iran. But that does not mean it's Iranian moon. Or the sun, it does not mean Iranian sun. Moon is one. Either in India or in Iran, the moon is moon. You cannot say "Iranian moon" or "Indian moon." So spiritual culture is one, and material culture is one. Therefore I'm asking, "What do you mean by spiritual culture?" That is my question. Then we shall consider whether it is Iranian or Indian or . . . what is your idea of spiritual culture? Of course, I believe that they're all the same, but . . . No, same . . . but you must explain at least. I want to know that how far you have understood spiritual culture as it is. That is my question. Well, of course, it is very difficult to differentiate. *Yes, it is difficult. Practically you do not know what is spiritual culture. That is a fact. So first of all, you must try to understand what is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture means . . . there are two things within our experience: matter and spirit. So matter is this body, and spirit is the soul within the body. Without spirit, this material body has no value. That we experience every day. When a man is dead, we take it, "Now the body is useless. Throw it away." Therefore the body is important so long the spirit soul is there. And that is spirit. And when we study that spirit soul, that is the beginning of spiritual culture. If you have no idea of what is that spirit, then there is no question of spiritual culture. With this body we cannot make any progress of spiritual culture. That is not possible. The body is matter. They're explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , antavanta ime dehā . Bring Bhagavad-gītā . Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ . So try to understand what is spirit, what is matter. Translation: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction; therefore, fight, O descendant of Bharata." Only the material body is subject to destruction. Eh? "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction." Yes, the body's destructible, but the spirit soul is not destructible. When you understand this point, then we understand what is spirit, and then spiritual culture begins. Without being convinced of this spirit soul, there is no question of spiritual culture. So the spirit soul is described as eternal. And the proof is given, eternity. Just like there are so many children. They'll grow up from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood. The body is changing. This is very practical. But the spirit soul is there, the same spirit soul which was within the womb of the mother in a small body, then coming out of the mother's womb. The same spirit soul is there, but the body is different. In this way, the body is being situated in different status, but we know that the proprietor of the body is the same. Is there any difficulty to understand? Anyone? The body is changing, that's a fact. You are young man. You'll have to become an old man like me. That means body will change. But so far you are concerned, you are the same. So, the body changes and the spirit soul remains the same. This is to be understood first of all. What is the difficulty? First of all, you must distinguish what is spirit, what is matter. Material culture means this body is there, it requires some necessities. The body must be given something to eat. Is it not? Eating? Then the body must be given some rest, sleeping, for which we require some apartment, some place. Not we, but also even the animals, birds, they have got their nest, or the animal has got some hole or something. So eating, sleeping, and some sense gratification, sex. These are bodily necessities. But when you understand what is spirit, then we must try to find out what is spiritual necessities. That is spiritual culture. You cannot go on with the bodily culture as spiritual culture. That is a mistake. Spiritual culture is different from the bodily culture. And when we understand it, then there is no question of "Iranian spiritual culture" or "Indian spiritual culture." Spiritual culture is one, as bodily culture is also one. It does not mean that only Indians eat and the Iranians do not eat. The Iranians also eat, because they're bodily necessities. Similarly, spiritual culture also, there is some necessities which is equally needed by the Iranians, by Americans, by Indians. It is not . . . just like when we say that the child grows to become a boy. This is not applicable only to the Indians or Iranians. It is applicable to everyone. Child grows everywhere. You cannot say this is Indian or Iranian. It everywhere. So if we understand what is spiritual culture what is material culture, then there is no question of Iranian or Indian or English or American. Spiritual culture is the same everywhere. So any question on this point? Any difficulty to understand? (pause) Spiritual culture or material culture, it is one and the same everywhere. There cannot be any difference. Materially, we want to cover this body, some dress. Everyone has got dress. You cannot say this is Iranian dress or it is Indian dress. Dress is dress, that's all. So any question on this point? Isn't it the approach which makes it different? This is the approach, that first of all you distinguish what is matter, what is spirit. This is the approach. Well, perhaps, the spiritual culture, what we mean by that, all the rituals, all the different approach . . . No, rituals, we shall come later on. First of all, let us understand what is matter, what is spirit. Unless we understand what is matter and what is spirit, there is no question of spiritual culture. Then you'll be misguided. By material culture, you will pass on as spiritual culture. And that is going on. (pause) Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the goal once one understands what is spirit and what is matter? What is the goal past that? Goal is there, because spirit is important. Without spirit, matter has no value. This is a material box, but because it has no spirit, it has no value. It has value, comparatively, but not as valuable as a human being because there is no spirit. You can move, if you like; you can go immediately. But this, for many thousands of years it will lie down here. It cannot move, because there is no spirit. Therefore spirit is important. So this distinction is possible to understand in the human form of body. What is the distinction between a human being or a living man and this box? The distinction is that the living being has the spirit soul within and the box has no spirit soul within. Now if we take care of this box outwardly, that we should take; similarly if you take care of the body only, then where is spiritual culture? If you take care of the four principles of bodily necessities—eating, sleeping and sex and defense—then where is spiritual culture? The aim should be spiritual culture, at least for human being. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand what is the distinction between spirit and soul, er, spirit and matter, but a human being can understand that, "This is spiritual side; this is material side. The spiritual side is important." Therefore the goal is how to understand the spiritual side. (break) That is the goal. If we don't cultivate the spiritual side, simply we take care of the bodily side, then we remain animals. And because people are taking only care for the body, this is animal civilization. Human civilization means to take care of the spiritual side. If there is no such attempt to take care of the spiritual side, simply for the material side, then we are no better than the animals. Because they cannot take any care of the spiritual side; they can take care of the material side. Is the soul dependent upon the body for its existence? Hmm? Soul is dependent? Upon the body for existence. Yes. At the present moment, the soul is dependent on the material body because he has no spiritual culture. Just like we Indians, we were under the British rule. So long there was no national movement, they remained dependent on the Britishers. But as soon as there was national movement, they became independent. This is a crude example. Similarly, because we have no spiritual cultivation, we are dependent on this material body. Actually, the soul is not dependent on the body. It has become so under certain condition: because he's thinking that he is this body. They have been described as mūḍha. Mūḍha is an ass. Mūḍha means ass. So I do not know what it is here. In India the asses are kept by the washerman. The washerman loads tons of cloth on the back of the ass to take it to the waterside, and again he brings back to the washerman shop, and the washerman gives a morsel of grass, little, and he eats the grass and stands there to carry the tons of load, thinking that he's dependent on the washerman. He has no intelligence that, "The grass can be had anywhere. Why I am dependent on this washerman to carry so much load?" Lack of knowledge. Similarly, we are dependent on this body for lack of spiritual knowledge. As soon as he'll be enlightened by spiritual knowledge, then no more dependence. Therefore it is needed. Otherwise, he'll remain like an ass, perpetually dependent on the washerman. Mūḍha . We are thinking that without this body we cannot live. No. That is not the fact. We can live independently of this body. But our present position, because we have no spiritual culture, we are thinking that we are dependent on this body. Actually, we are not dependent. That will be revealed the more you advance in spiritual culture. What was his question before? Is your question satisfied? Yes. (pause) (referring to something in room) It is something like gum? Yes. Does it require change? No. Change? Yes. No, I have got it filled in my . . . (indistinct) No, it's finished after a while. Just twenty minutes. Oh. Then I shall put another? Dependence for twenty minutes. That is my dependence, for twenty minutes or twenty years or twenty millions of years. There are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty minutes. And there are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty years. And there are many animals who depend on the body for twenty millions of years. It is a question of proportion. But actually the spirit soul is not dependent on any type of body twenty minutes or twenty years and twenty millions of years. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Find out this. "One who knows the transcendent nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Somebody else? There are some guests coming. (background discussion as guests move around) Come forward. No, let them come in. So whether these gentlemen's questions are answered? If they have got any doubt, we can . . . Through association they will ask more questions. What is that verse? "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." So this is the process of becoming independent of the material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is the process. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to make one independent of this material body. Any other questions? Then bring my beads. (long pause) My question is whether you like to remain dependent on this material body. Hmm? If you can live spiritually independent, whether you should remain dependent on this material body, and whether to remain dependent on this material body is happy or it is distress? What is your realization? To remain dependent on this material body, is it very good or is it troublesome, huh? Suffering. Suffering, very good. If you remain dependent on this material body, then suffering. So why don't you become independent? That is the next question. Attachment. Attachment, maybe. That is not a very important thing. But if there is a process, how to become independent of this body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. Just like a man suffering from illness—attachment or no attachment, he's now suffering from that illness—but he has put himself into hospitalization under some physician. So that process will cure him, and he'll not suffer from this disease. That is the hope. Or that is the fact. Similarly, circumstantially, we may be dependent on this material body, but if there is a process how we can become independent of the body, why should we not take it? The same example: If a man is diseased, he's captured by the disease. Attachment or no attachment, it is difficult. But he must put himself under treatment so that he can be detached from it. That is intelligence. "I am caught by the disease. So let me suffer without any treatment," that is not intelligence. I must take the process of treatment by which . . . that is explained there, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Take this treatment so that after giving up this body you'll not have any more material body. And as soon as you become free from this material body, there is no suffering. But as soon as you get material body, you must suffer. So if there is way and means to avoid this material body, and remain in our original, spiritual body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. And is very simple thing. (aside) Read it again. "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities, does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Purport? *"The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the sixth verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage, and therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body. Such liberation of the living entity from material bondage is not at all easy. The impersonalists and the yogīs attain liberation only after much trouble and many, many births. Even then, the liberation they achieve, merging into the impersonal brahma*-jyotir of the Lord, is only partial, and there's the risk of returning again to this material world. But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning again to this material world. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated that the Lord has many, many forms and incarnations: advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (BS 5.33). Although there are many transcendental forms of the Lord, they are still one and the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. One has to understand this fact with conviction, although it is incomprehensible to mundane scholars and empiric philosophers. As stated in the Vedas :" "The one Supreme Personality of Godhead is eternally engaged in many, many transcendental forms in relationships with His unalloyed devotees.' This Vedic version is confirmed in this verse of the *Gītā* personally by the Lord. He who accepts this truth on the strength of the authority of the *Vedas* and of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and who does not waste time in philosophical speculations, attains the highest perfectional stage of liberation. Simply by accepting this truth on faith, one can, without a doubt, attain liberation. The Vedic version, tat tvam asi , is actually applied in this case. Anyone who understands Lord Kṛṣṇa to be the Supreme, or who says unto the Lord, 'You are the Supreme Brahman, the Personality of Godhead,' is certainly liberated instantly, and consequently his entrance into the transcendental association of the Lord is guaranteed. In other words, such a faithful devotee of the Lord attains perfection, and this is confirmed by the following Vedic assertion:" *"One can attain the perfect stage of liberation from birth and death simply by knowing the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no alternative, because anyone who does not understand Lord Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is surely in the mode of ignorance. Consequently he will not attain salvation simply, so to speak, by licking the outer surface of the bottle of honey, or by interpreting the Bhagavad*-gītā according to mundane scholarship. Such empiric philosophers may assume many important roles in the material world, but they are not necessarily eligible for liberation. Such puffed-up mundane scholars have to wait for the causeless mercy of the devotee of the Lord. One should therefore cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness with faith and knowledge, and in this way attain perfection." So if there is some process to become independent of this material body, why should we not accept? What is the objection? (doorbell sounds) If somebody's suffering from some disease and if there is process of curing it, why one should not take it? (long pause) So your friends' questions and answers are welcome. They just came to listen, Śrīla Prabhupāda. No, they must be satisfied. (break) The young man who just came is Terry Graham. He'd come to see you two years ago when you were here. Oh, jaya . He's a journalist. Oh, yes. I remember. So he has got any question? Terry, do you have any questions? Terry: No. (long pause) *Terry: I have a question about this particular age. Where the world seems to be dividing itself between two kinds of materialists: the one which pays lip service to spiritual precedents but really devotes itself to self*-aggrandizement, and the other, which establishes an atheistic doctrine in the name of moral struggle with that greedy self-aggrandizement. In fact, this atheistic moral doctrine has now taken over virtually the entire Sinic world—China, Tibet, Indochina. Is there some way that . . . the question is, what is the cosmic purpose for this, and how should one come to terms with this prevailing . . . this increasingly prevailing notion that justice can be established in a material state or a material dimension? In the material world there cannot be any peace, justice, morality. It is not possible. You may try to make some adjustment, but it will never be possible. So, by their concocted imagination, they are thinking, "This way will be beneficial," but unless they come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of peace, prosperity, justice. It is not possible. Unless we come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of justice, morality, peace. It is not possible. They may attempt in different ways, by their mental speculative process, but actually it will never come to be true. They are all trying—the scientists, philosophers, politicians, religionists—to make some adjustment, but that is not possible. We must understand the material platform, these threefold miserable conditions. Just like we are trying to avoid some miserable condition, very insignificant—to get out of the disturbance created by the mosquitoes and the flies. We are trying our best, but still they are disturbing. Is it not? Still they find out some loopholes and go into the room and disturb you. So you cannot avoid. Similarly, the disturbances of nature—the severe cold, scorching heat—how you can counteract it? Is it possible? Not possible. Ādhyātmika , you may keep your body quite fit to your best knowledge, but still there will be some trouble, sometimes coughing, sometimes mental equilibrium is lost, you don't feel nice. So these things will go on. Because we have got this material body, the material conditions must work. You cannot make any adjustments. That's not possible. You have come to the spiritual platform independent of this material body, then there will be everything solved, on every purpose. They can waste their time for making an adjustment, but that is not possible. I have given some example, that everyone is trying to become free from the material disturbances, but it is not possible. Nobody is free from material disturbance. That is not possible. So if you actually want freedom from material disturbances, you have to come to the spiritual platform and cultivate spiritual knowledge and be fixed up. Then your life is successful. Is there a relationship, he's asking, between these disturbances and this age, that this time that we are living in . . . It is more or less. Sometimes you have got 110° temperature and sometimes you have got 70° temperature. But the disturbance is there. Either 110° or 70° or 30°, you'll have to feel the disturbance. You cannot stop it. So either you take the cause this age, or this country, or this atmosphere, we can say so, but it will continue. That is the nature of the material world. If you think that 110° is too much, "Let it be 100° . . ." That you concoct like that. In fact any such temperature will disturb you. That's a fact. You can think that if it would have been 100°, it would have been very nice. But that's not the fact. Either 110° or 100°, it is disturbing. That is a fact. Then how can you stop it? Anyone who wants to stop it, he's intelligent. And that is described here, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mam eti (BG 4.9). One has to understand this fundamentally, that so long I'll get this material body, I'll have to suffer. Maybe differences of degrees, but I will have to suffer. So my endeavor should be how to become independent of this material body. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Not to make a distinction of different degrees. Different degrees . . . one position . . . "One man's food, another man's poison," the same degree. If you think that it is nice, another man will suffer. So suffering will continue. That is not possible to . . . (indistinct) . . . it is the nature of material world, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). (aside) Find out this verse. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. This material world is full of miseries. That they do not understand. Miserable condition they are accepting as pleasing. That is called ignorance. "After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection." *The material world is full of miseries. It may be of different degrees, but it is full of miseries. You cannot avoid by adjustment. That is not possible. Therefore the materialist, they are trying. Just like in this country, Iran, now the Iranians are trying to become as opulent as the Americans are. They are trying to build up similar cities and industries. But do you think they will be happy then? No. Are the Americans happy by having big, big cities? No. That is not possible. Now they are trying to imitate, but that is a false attempt. That is not the life. They can see that Americans have got big, big cities, they have big, big organizations, but are they happy actually or not? From practical example. Then why you are attempting again to imitate them? That intelligence is lacking. How they will be happy, they do not know it. They are trying to imitate somebody else who is already on the standard, so*-called, but still they are not happy. The Communists, they're trying for the last fifty years to become happy, but are they happy actually? No. The Russians and the Chinese, they are now differing, "No, this is not the standard. This is standard." So the same thing is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). It is like chewing the chewed, that's all. Somebody has chewed the sugarcane and it's thrown away. Another man comes, "Let me taste it." And what you'll taste? It is already finished. *So all these "isms," they are all finished. All the scientific discoveries, they are all finished. And where is happiness? This is not the way. That is the . . . mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). You have to attempt in such a way that after giving up this body, you go back home, back to Godhead, never come back again here. This is the way. Otherwise, there is no happiness. Go on struggling, that is your choice. Make new attempts. Just like this moon excursion. Ten years ago in one small book, Easy Journey to Other Planets , we predicted that this moon*-going attempt is childish and waste of time. We are not expert scientist, but from the śāstra we can understand. Now such a brilliant planet, pleasing, and they have discovered there rocks and sand. Just see their intelligence. Do you think rocks and sand is so brilliant? What do you think? This bluff is going on. People are feeling under the moonshine is so pleasing, and it is full of rocks and sand. We have to accept that. Rocks and sand, throughout the whole day by scorching heat, they also become heated. So at night it is suffering. So if it is rocks and sand, so whole day it was heated by the sunshine, how it is pleasing? . . . but if there is no material activities, then you are not affected. This is possible. Just like an iron rod, you put into the fire. Gradually, it becomes warmer, warmer, and at last, when it is red hot, it is fire, no more iron. Similarly, even though we have got this material body, if we cultivate spiritual life, then the activities of the material body will stop automatically. Therefore it is no more material body. The same example, the iron rod has become already fire. So you put it in the fire, and continue it, then you'll understand that it is no more iron rod, it is fire. Touch anywhere, it will burn. You cannot say it is iron bar. Similarly, if you become spiritually enlightened, then the material activities will stop, and then you'll be happy. (break) You'll feel, "Yes, I have got some . . . (indistinct) . . ." In the last chapter which he read, he was . . . I think you read about the yogīs who can get to this high level of consciousness and then they can still fall back. That's like, my question: what was the cause for this? *If you do not come to the point of fulfillment of your appetite—you are eating, but if you have not sufficiently eaten, then you want more to eat. But if you have sufficiently eaten, then you will say: "No, no, no. No more I want." Even if you are offered, "Take more food." You'll say: "No, I have enough." It is a question of sufficiency and insufficiency. If you are insufficiently spiritually advanced, you'll feel vacancy so much. But if you are sufficiently advanced, then you'll say: "It is all right now." It is a question of sufficiency, insufficiency. So other method, jñāna , yoga , they are insufficient. And bhakti*-yoga is sufficient. Therefore you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). (aside) Find out this verse. He never recommends jñāna , yoga , karma . Bhakti . So if you take the path of bhakti , then you'll feel sufficiency. Otherwise, you'll feel insufficient. To some extent, although it is perfect, but it is not completely perfect. "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." That's it. Unless you enter into the kingdom of God, you'll not feel full satisfaction. Even if you go to the moon planet or Mars planet, there is no question of satisfaction. (to guest) So your question is whether one can enter this kingdom of God with this body. *No, that is already explained— tyaktvā dehaṁ . Giving up this body, one can enter in spiritual world. Viśate tad*-anantaram —after death. By bhakti , when he's mature and he gives up this body, then he enters into the spiritual world. Tyaktvā deham, giving up this body. You cannot enter; *although by devotional service the material activities of the body will stop, but you have to wait for the moment when this material body is no more existing, then with spiritual body you can enter. Tyaktvā deham, mām eti. Viśate tad*-anantaram. Tad-anantaram : after death. And if you have got little pinch of material attachment, then you'll have to accept another material body. So we have come to the point that no more I want anything material. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). I am no more anyone's servant. I am neither American nor Iranian nor Indian nor Hindu nor Muslim, not this, not that; I'm simply servant of . . . that is my position. And so long I shall keep attachment for this designation, temporary . . . what is this "Iranian," "American," "Indian"? Say for few years. Because you have to change this body. Tyaktvā deham. Tathā dehāntaram . So after giving up this body, you have to accept another body. If I am in the next body I become a sparrow, then where is my conception of Iranian, Indian and Hindu, and Muslim? I am sparrow, jumping like sparrow, that's all. So these are designations, temporary designations. One has to become free from these temporary designations. Then he's liberated. That is bhakti . So this life should be utilized for purifying ourself from this designation. If you keep the designation, then there is no possibility of purification. You'll get another designation. Now we are Indian or Iranian, next a sparrow or a crow or a tree or a demigod—another designation. Just like the same: the child, a baby, on the lap of the mother, a baby; and another designation, boy; another designation, young man; another designation, old man. But the spirit soul is the same. He's simply changing designation. So freedom means freedom from these all these designations. I am spirit, ahaṁ brahmāsmi . I am spirit soul, my business is spiritual activity. So long we want to keep designation, you'll have to accept material body and suffer. *So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to educate people how to become free from designations. Therefore we accept from any group. He might think that he is under designation . . . but our business is to make him free from the designation. We therefore welcome anyone. He may come with designation, but if he lives with us, he follows our rules and regulations, he become free from designation. And this so*-called designated religious system will not help us. If we keep ourself on the designated platform—"I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Iranian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am Buddhist"—then we have to continue in that designation. There is no question of freedom. That requires tapasya . That designationless status is called brahma-bhūtaḥ . And the opposite of brahma-bhūtaḥ is jīva-bhutaḥ. Jīva-bhutaḥ . . . there are so many jīvas , living entities. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." And the bird is thinking, "I am bird." The man is thinking, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." So this designation, you may be a dog designation or Hindu designation or Muslim, they are the same. There is no difference. Maybe some degrees. But one has to become designationless. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Then bhakti , when one is designationless. If he wants to keep his designation, then there is no question of bhakti . The bhakti line is so nice that if you take to bhakti line, automatically you'll be designationless. (pause) Now you have to decide whether you want to keep designation or become free from designation. (pause) Śrīla Prabhupāda, thank you very much. (guests leave) (break) . . . activity, but he still has designation and he comes to the temple and he chants, but he still thinks . . . That is an attempt to become designationless. But one has to become free from designation. The same example: If the rod is put in the fire, it is becoming warm, warmer, warmer, and when it is red hot it is no more rod, it is fire. So beginning of life, neophyte stage, is the beginning. When he actually becomes advanced in devotional service, that is designationless. But we still call that, when a person first comes and he still has that designation stage, but we still call that bhakti ? No, he's on the platform. Just like the same example. The iron rod is put in the fire. So it is fiery condition. Similarly, one who has given to devotional service, he is in the designationless condition, but it requires time to make the iron rod exactly fire. Same thing as that pulling the plug out of the fan. Huh? Same example, pulling the plug out and fan keeps going for some . . . *There are so many examples. There are so many examples. The beginning stage and the perfect stage. Perfect stage, designationless. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, in the beginning, api cet su*-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30): even he's not completely a devotee, still, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ , you must accept him as a devotee. Why? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. He has taken to the process completely. So there may be some designations of his on account of past habit, but because he has taken to the process of becoming designationless, he is sādhu . If he sticks to the principle, kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati (BG 9.31), he'll very soon he'll become a perfect devotee and he'll get peace— śaśvac-chānti-kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati . These things are there. So one has to take the line of Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, then everything automatically will appear. There is no . . . that is called utsāhān dhairyāt. Dhairyāt , patience. Niścayād : "I have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness exactly as Kṛṣṇa wants, then I'll surely be perfect." That is niścayād . There is no doubt about it. If I am following the direction of Kṛṣṇa under the guidance of spiritual master, be sure that you'll be successful. There is no question of becoming unsuccessful. Niścayād . But if I am deviating, that is my . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you follow, then you'll be sure to be successful. Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that what Lord Caitanya is trying to teach Haridāsa Ṭhākura when he says, "Put away your excess humility"? Hmm? Haridāsa Ṭhākura is following all the principles, but he's always feeling so fallen. So Lord Caitanya tells him, "Put away your excess humility." Is this what He is trying to teach him? That we should have assurance? *Assurance is there. Kṛṣṇa says, kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhakta . . . (BG 9.31). If you remain pure devotee, you'll never fall down. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). These are assurances. If you simply try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, why does He come, what are His activities, janma karma ca me divyam , simply . . . this is cultivation, to understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa consciousness cultivation. And Kṛṣṇa assures, tyaktvā dehaṁ : you have to give up this body. But for a devotee giving up this body means no more accepting another body. And nondevotees giving up this body, tathā dehāntara prāptir : another body. That is the difference between devotee and nondevotee. One may say both of them are dying. Yes, they are dying, that's all right. They are not dying—nobody is dying—but changing the body. But a devotee's changing not to accept any more material body. The nondevotees changing to accept another. That is the difference. And if you accept another body you will suffer, more or less, degrees. And if you don't accept material body, then you become spiritually situated. Sac*-cid-ānanda vigraha (BS 5.1), simply ānanda , eternally blissful. Very easy. *So we should be intelligent enough that if by practicing in this one life I can get next eternal, blissful life of knowledge, why shall I deviate? Even if there is some difficulty, let me tolerate. What is the difficulty? Caitanya Mahāprabhu given so easy, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and everything will be done perfectly. So where is the difficulty? No difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has not bluffed. He said kalau nāsty eva : in Kali*-yuga you cannot do anything more. You do, simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty now? A boy can chant. It is simply practice, association. Your son, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. *So these chances should be given to everyone, then everything will be all right. Let him be practiced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then everything will go on. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Where is the difficulty, unless we make it difficult? Otherwise there is no difficulty. Otherwise suffering. Just like this lamb. It has got the Iranian body, but he's kept there for being killed. So what is the benefit of this Iranian body? But people are very much enthusiastic to remain nationalists, "I am Iranian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that." So, but he has worked in a different way, so he has got attachment for becoming American and Iranian, "All right you become." And according to work you have to become a lamb, and other Iranians eat you. That's all. This is designation. They do not understand, or they are not educated that what he will get by these designations. Big, big movement is going on on this designation platform. In our country, Mahatma Gandhi, he supposed to be a great personality, but what is his teaching? He remained in designation, that's all. "Feel like Indian and drive away the English." By one designation, you drive away another designation. This is going on. And he took Bhagavad*-gītā and never said: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." This is going on. Karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa sakale viṣera bandha (Prema-bhakti-candrikā). This is karma-kāṇḍa . Designation means this. And higher than this karma-kāṇḍa , the mental speculators, jñāna-kāṇḍa . So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, both of them viṣera bandha , pot of poison. If you waste your time in this way, then they will get another body, that's all. Nana yoni bhraman kare kadārya bhakṣana kare, tara janma adha pate yaya . These are simple words, but it contains very, very grave meaning from the Vaiṣṇava ācārya . Where is Ātreya Ṛṣi? Ātreya Ṛṣi? I'll get him. *If we take that analogy, karma*-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa , then . . . *Everything is going on, karma*-kāṇḍa . Whole world acting fruitive activities: "Let me work and get the result." This is karma-kāṇḍa . And it is like poison. From poison we suffer and die. Yes, it is . . . die means spiritual death. No spiritual idea. Otherwise, we have no death, nitya . But spiritual death is there. (Ātreya Ṛṣi enters, offers obeisances) So your friends are satisfied or not? Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They said they were. This is scientific truth. I have noticed that people who are materially contaminated, when they hear spiritual preaching, they can always look at it from material point of view. For example, when you speak of designation, one boy was asking how come we are also having shaved heads and dressing like devotees. In other words, the emphasis on their minds is more on what is everybody else thinking, while the emphasis in your teaching is how you yourself can become free, not what everybody else is thinking. While our shaving of our head and dressing as devotee is a means to become free from all designation, he may be seeing other designations. No, it does not depend on shaving head. But this is in the process. It is in the process. *Yes. By shaving . . . there are so many shaven*-headed. Does it means that he's in the process? Just like a doctor carries one stethoscope. But if somebody thinks, "Let me carry a stethoscope, I'll become a doctor." (break) But for a doctor the stethoscope is required. But if a false man takes a stethoscope and declares himself a doctor, medical man, then he is cheating. (pause) You get here puffed rice? No. Yes. Get? We . . . let me ask. We may have little bit. No, here they prepare puffed rice? No. From India or from America. We don't have. You get imported. Yes. Would you like me to ask? Yes, few grains. We have some flat rice with us, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We brought some flat rice, cheera . No, don't . . . (indistinct) . . . I shall not take it. Did he see that in the store now? I'm asking if he saw it in the store. No, it is not here, we got it. What is that? No. Don't take trouble. I'll not take. No trouble. I have some friends in American commissary, friends like that. They could possibly get it. I'll call them. You get some tomorrow. Can I see if we can fix you some, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Puffed rice? No. What would you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda? No, doesn't matter. Someone has given us some from India. Puffed rice? Yes. Bring it, let me see. (pause) I think today is cooler, so I don't require to lie down outside. Sleep inside? Huh? Sleep inside? It's coming to pūrṇimā . Yes. Moon is cooling effect. Desert will make a cooling effect. (laughter) Just see. At least I shall not believe that this is desert and rock. I am not so fool. The desert and rock is giving so nice brilliant shining, everyone is feeling comfortable. Just see. We have to believe it. Because Kṛṣṇa is missing. They don't accept Kṛṣṇa. No, they should have at least common sense. But they have no common sense. Kṛṣṇa is far away from here, for these rascals, but at least they should have common sense. But that also they have not. Even they have not common sense. Children are always asking . . . it is a folk thing that children ask, "What is the moon made of? Mother, father, what is the moon made of?" They ask? Generally, when they young, "What is the moon?" "What is the moon made of?" So they used to answer, "It's made of green cheese." (laughter) *You believe that it is desert and rock and giving so nice shining, cooling effect? In Vedic literature there is always comparison, analogy, with moon, moon*-faced, candra-mukhi . There are so many. Best thing is compared with the moon. We have named Māyāpur-candra. Māyāpur-candrodaya Mandira. Do you mean that a desert is coming out from Māyāpur? (pause) You have got rock candy? Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Give me little. Prabhupāda, your temples are the real spaceships. We can go to the other planets and to Kṛṣṇaloka from your temples. Yes, therefore I've given you *Easy Journey to Other Planets* . (devotee brings in puffed rice) It is from India? It is from India. Fresh. Would you like it fried a little? Little make it hot. Hot. We can little heat it. That's all. After heating, put little ghee, very little, and mix it with black pepper and salt. We mix it or you mix it? I can mix. We'll bring it separately. But this is good. And also we can bring some fruit? No . . . (indistinct) . . . keep it there. So this is nice. Shall I put some on this lid, or . . .? Hmm. (background discussion as devotees arrange things) Some Indian gentleman has given? This is Mrs. Patel. We asked. She has prepared or . . .? No, from India. Persian rice is famous. Yes. It is prepared in a different way. It is prepared differently. Persian rice? Yes, we prepare it also differently. How? We first boil it and then take the water out and then steam it, steam it with ghee . So first of all you boil? And take the water out. Paddy? Paddy? No, boil for two three minutes and then steam. Rice? Yes then steam. And it makes very long, individual . . . And then you dry? No. We eat it like that. For two, three days? No. No. They eat it immediately after cooking. Oh. Was that the rice she made? She prepared it that way last night? This afternoon? No. This rice isn't even Persian; it's American rice. Persian rice is too expensive, even in Persia. (indistinct background conversation) (break) They make very nice puffed rice in Bengal. How do they make it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Not difficult. The paddy, they are boiled. And then again baked in the sunshine. Again boil, then again baked in the sunshine. Then the skin is taken out by that ḍheṅki , what is called? That rice . . . Thresher? *That is that ḍheṅki , husking machine, the skin is taken away. Then mixed with salt and make it heated. Then when it is prepared, then they heat sand, and in that heated sand they put the rice, and immediately putt*-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt . Like that. They also make it like that in America? Huh? *In America they probably have a short*-cut process. Maybe. What method? Industrial. Machines. (laughs) We used to have for breakfast. (end) Conversation -- August 8, 1976, Tehran If there are planets, Śrīla Prabhupāda, like the sun planet, where . . . We get information from the śāstra , every planet is full of life. Yes, that there is life in um, some planets. *Jana*-kīrṇa , this very word is used, jana-kīrṇa , "congested with life." And we have got description, this loka , this loka , this loka is fighting sometimes with other loka , or that . . . everything is description there. There is milk ocean, there is this ocean, that ocean, varieties of. So if we have to take these rascals' version—they're simply rogues—then the whole śāstra becomes false. The point in the śāstra is that every . . . And they will advertise that these description in the śāstras , they are all mythology. Of course, this kind of bluffing cannot go, because suppose this Mars expedition becomes a failure, like that, the same . . . it will be failure. So next time, if they propose, I think people will be hesitant to go. Simply bringing people rocks and sands, without any utility, after spending so much money. How long they can repeat this, "Yes, we went to this planet, rocks. We went to this—rocks." So we see variety. If you . . . the so many luminaries, simply rocks and sands? The moon is full of rocks, and it's so illuminating? Whole universe is illuminated so nice, moonshine. So many stars illuminating, and they're rocks and sand? We have to believe it? They are saying there is life on Mars. They are seeing microbes, small little living entities. They are detecting these with their machines. So they are seeing, there is some life. Microbes? Microbe, you know, like microscopic . . . *Why they can see only microbes, not a fully grown*-up human being? No, they are detecting through gas. They feed the microbes, and then microbes give off evacuation . . . How they can see? Suppose you see from a distant place, this planet. So how you can see within water? You can take photograph of the water, but how you can take photograph within the water? So what is the value of their taking photograph? Does the photograph takes the picture within the water? No. Then what is the use of such photograph? But they are not detecting with photographs, they are detecting with chemicals. What . . . (indistinct) . . . chemical? They say the chemicals are giving off gases when they are feeding the earth. They take the ground from Mars . . . Just see so many bogus words they manufacture to make believe. Because they are scientist, they'll talk all big, big words which we cannot understand. So you cannot argue. (talks gibberish) Like that. By common sense question, that they are simply finding out rocks and sand, and again they are saying somebody has bombed. The first . . . (coughing) If there is bomb, then there is fight; so if there is fight, there must be human being. *He was the one that told me about that, about the canyon and the bombed*-out place. Yes, I was working for USIS, US Information Service, and I had a commission to paint a large picture of this Mars landing ship, and they had information coming back that they were finding a long blockhouse with a big crater in the center, like a building that had been bombed. Fourteen kilometer crater. They had a picture like that. It appeared to be a building. But they are all cheaters. I used to live in Florida where they send up these . . . they are all drunkards. They drink alcohol, very unserious. Oh, then they can manufacture. All drunkards, they are in charge of this fighting. So Śrīla Prabhupāda, if there are some visitors, can they come up? Yes. Will we have readings, or would you like to talk with them? Let them come, we shall see. My point is, why they do not see any other spot? Only these spots are visible, where there are rocks. They say Howrah station is closed. No sane man will believe that, that Howrah station is closed. They do not want to upset the illusion that they are God, that they are the only ones in the universe. So if they find out there is life on another planet, they will not like it. If there is higher life somewhere else, they will not like that. They are always in competition. And all the higher lives are in Europe and America. Especially in America, eh? That is their mania. They do not like that there may be higher lives, you said. They like it that there may not be any higher life. That is their preconception. Yes. This is the highest here, cannot be any higher. They will not accept. Just see how much biased they are. *They cannot accept another philosophy. They will not accept philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā because it is from another country. They do not like that. Ah, now you can see their attitude. *So it is very good. On the abridged Bhagavad*-gītā we have Americans, Emerson and Thoreau, saying this is a wonderful book. That is very good, that is very impressive to Americans. They will accept if some great Americans have said. *That was my policy from the very beginning, that if the Americans accept, then my mission will be successful. And that is being done gradually, and I am insisting that preach in America vigorously. If America accept, then whole world will accept. That's a fact. Anywhere, although America may be fallen, the ideal is American, everywhere. Because they have got money. Kali*-yuga means money. If you have got money, then you have got culture, you have got education, you have got everything. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Formerly, they were attached, family, aristocracy, culture, education. Nowadays there is no such thing. Get money and you get everything. It is not? Somehow or other, if you have got control over money then you have got everything. Bring that black Bhāgavata . What is that sound coming? There is goat? I think a lamb, sheep. Lamb. Yes. They keep lambs for . . .? For sacrificing. They sacrifice at home? The Koran says that you should sacrifice the animal at home, with his head pointing toward Mecca. Huh? With the head of the animal towards Mecca. Mecca, oh. And you let the blood of the animal flow toward Mecca, and then you can eat an animal. So they keep many sheep here just for that purpose. Oh. So at least they do not recommend to purchase from the slaughterhouse. That is also good. But they have slaughterhouse. *But the Koran restricts meat*-eating. It is restriction. Yes. So this is what we explain—we say if it is good, then why is it restricted? That is good explanation. What do they say? They say, well, Muhammad did it. That's all right. But this is restriction. There is light in the veranda? Yes, there is light. Yes. So let us go so that you can sit comfortably. You can take this little pillow. Would you like a glass of water, Prabhupāda? *Yes. That janma*-acarana , that Twelfth Canto, Third Chapter. I shall like to sit down . . . (indistinct) Is that cushion all right? Now in the beginning . . . The beginning of Third Chapter? Yes. The Third Chapter begins, dṛṣṭvātmani jaye vyagrān . That's Third Chapter. Second Chapter. *Second Chapter, tataś cānu*-dinaṁ dharmaḥ. Ah. It says carma ? Cara ? Dharmaḥ cara . Oh. Now you begin that. Vittam eva , that's it. Vittam eva ? *Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ Ah. Vittam means money. So if you have got money, then you are coming from high family. There is no consideration of Brahmin, kṣatriya. If you have got money, then you are everything. Vittam eva hi ? *Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . *Ah. Janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ. That is practical, we see. If you have got money, then people will come to you, "Oh, you are so learned, you are so qualified." Just like George, or John Lennon. What qualification they have got? But people will go there and take them as very highly learned and scholar and everything. The press reporters take their opinion. But what is their qualification? The qualification, by selling some records they have got money, that's all. What is that qualification? Now of course, they are coming to—George at least—coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, from qualification point of view, they are not learned, educated in university, or they have got any spiritual asset, born Brahmin family, nothing. Simply money. We also go and flatter them to get some money. (laughs) So this is Kali-yuga. Vittam eva. If you have got money, then you have got everything. Therefore people are after so much money, after money. Vittam eva , hmm? Read that? *dharma*-nyāya . In India we have seen that you bribe the brāhmaṇas and they'll give decision in your favor. And it is experienced by everyone. In the law court you bribe even the high-court judge, he'll give judgment in your . . . that is proven. One big judge—not now, at least fifty years ago, or more than that—his business was to take bribe, high-court judge, very learned judge. He was asked. He'll give judgement if you give him ten thousand rupees. So other brother high-court judges, they knew it. So in one case he was just arranging for this, and the chief justice called him that, "You immediately resign and go home, otherwise this arrangement you have made, it will be exposed." So he had no other alternative. He immediately resigned, and on some plea like "My heart is palpitating," so in this way he left the court, and then he was never allowed again. And when his friends asked him that "Why you are doing this?" so he said, "What can I do? I have got at least ten thousand rupees' expenditure per month and I get only four thousand." That was his . . . he was very able lawyer. By private practice he was earning more, but this practice . . . and nowadays it has come to, at least in India, anywhere you go, and bribe, and you get a favorable decision. (guests arrive) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall be sitting inside or here? Wherever you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I can like anywhere. This is good, this is good. But these gentlemen? They will be . . . (indistinct) Sit down. So let them come near; our men may go there. You can sit down. Let them come forward. (discussion as guests change places) Take, give them. Yes. You can give room light also. Inside. Inside the room. That's it. So, there is introduction? Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Hamidi. He's a friend of mine at work, and he's very much is interested in both Indian and Iranian spiritual life, in culture as it is. And this is Peter. He has been coming here on Fridays. He's American? English. Yes. And he's come and taken prasādam , and we talk to him sometimes. He offers pūjā to Lord Buddha. He's worshiping Lord Buddha. He has an altar. The other boy? Siva, Mr. Siva from Malaysia. He's Hindu, I believe. And he's recently come to visit us. Next is Dr. Rulf, he is from Holland. He is an economist, and he is working here, and we have . . . I've been acquainted with him through business. And that is Reza. He has been coming here for a long time, he's been chanting. He's trying to be . . . (indistinct) . . . both? Yes. So Iranian spiritual culture and Indian spiritual culture, you told me? Yes. So first of all, what is spiritual culture? Sufism. No, not . . . just like gold. Oh, the gold . . . I'll explain. Gold, either in Iran or in India, gold is gold. You cannot say "Iranian gold" or "Indian gold." That is not possible. Similarly, when you says: "Iranian spiritual culture" and "Indian spiritual culture," the common point is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture is one. It cannot be Iranian, Indian, or anywhere belonging to some sycophant. Just like this moon. This moon is now on Iran. But that does not mean it's Iranian moon. Or the sun, it does not mean Iranian sun. Moon is one. Either in India or in Iran, the moon is moon. You cannot say "Iranian moon" or "Indian moon." So spiritual culture is one, and material culture is one. Therefore I'm asking, "What do you mean by spiritual culture?" That is my question. Then we shall consider whether it is Iranian or Indian or . . . what is your idea of spiritual culture? Of course, I believe that they're all the same, but . . . No, same . . . but you must explain at least. I want to know that how far you have understood spiritual culture as it is. That is my question. Well, of course, it is very difficult to differentiate. *Yes, it is difficult. Practically you do not know what is spiritual culture. That is a fact. So first of all, you must try to understand what is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture means . . . there are two things within our experience: matter and spirit. So matter is this body, and spirit is the soul within the body. Without spirit, this material body has no value. That we experience every day. When a man is dead, we take it, "Now the body is useless. Throw it away." Therefore the body is important so long the spirit soul is there. And that is spirit. And when we study that spirit soul, that is the beginning of spiritual culture. If you have no idea of what is that spirit, then there is no question of spiritual culture. With this body we cannot make any progress of spiritual culture. That is not possible. The body is matter. They're explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , antavanta ime dehā . Bring Bhagavad-gītā . Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ . So try to understand what is spirit, what is matter. Translation: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction; therefore, fight, O descendant of Bharata." Only the material body is subject to destruction. Eh? "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction." Yes, the body's destructible, but the spirit soul is not destructible. When you understand this point, then we understand what is spirit, and then spiritual culture begins. Without being convinced of this spirit soul, there is no question of spiritual culture. So the spirit soul is described as eternal. And the proof is given, eternity. Just like there are so many children. They'll grow up from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood. The body is changing. This is very practical. But the spirit soul is there, the same spirit soul which was within the womb of the mother in a small body, then coming out of the mother's womb. The same spirit soul is there, but the body is different. In this way, the body is being situated in different status, but we know that the proprietor of the body is the same. Is there any difficulty to understand? Anyone? The body is changing, that's a fact. You are young man. You'll have to become an old man like me. That means body will change. But so far you are concerned, you are the same. So, the body changes and the spirit soul remains the same. This is to be understood first of all. What is the difficulty? First of all, you must distinguish what is spirit, what is matter. Material culture means this body is there, it requires some necessities. The body must be given something to eat. Is it not? Eating? Then the body must be given some rest, sleeping, for which we require some apartment, some place. Not we, but also even the animals, birds, they have got their nest, or the animal has got some hole or something. So eating, sleeping, and some sense gratification, sex. These are bodily necessities. But when you understand what is spirit, then we must try to find out what is spiritual necessities. That is spiritual culture. You cannot go on with the bodily culture as spiritual culture. That is a mistake. Spiritual culture is different from the bodily culture. And when we understand it, then there is no question of "Iranian spiritual culture" or "Indian spiritual culture." Spiritual culture is one, as bodily culture is also one. It does not mean that only Indians eat and the Iranians do not eat. The Iranians also eat, because they're bodily necessities. Similarly, spiritual culture also, there is some necessities which is equally needed by the Iranians, by Americans, by Indians. It is not . . . just like when we say that the child grows to become a boy. This is not applicable only to the Indians or Iranians. It is applicable to everyone. Child grows everywhere. You cannot say this is Indian or Iranian. It everywhere. So if we understand what is spiritual culture what is material culture, then there is no question of Iranian or Indian or English or American. Spiritual culture is the same everywhere. So any question on this point? Any difficulty to understand? (pause) Spiritual culture or material culture, it is one and the same everywhere. There cannot be any difference. Materially, we want to cover this body, some dress. Everyone has got dress. You cannot say this is Iranian dress or it is Indian dress. Dress is dress, that's all. So any question on this point? Isn't it the approach which makes it different? This is the approach, that first of all you distinguish what is matter, what is spirit. This is the approach. Well, perhaps, the spiritual culture, what we mean by that, all the rituals, all the different approach . . . No, rituals, we shall come later on. First of all, let us understand what is matter, what is spirit. Unless we understand what is matter and what is spirit, there is no question of spiritual culture. Then you'll be misguided. By material culture, you will pass on as spiritual culture. And that is going on. (pause) Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the goal once one understands what is spirit and what is matter? What is the goal past that? Goal is there, because spirit is important. Without spirit, matter has no value. This is a material box, but because it has no spirit, it has no value. It has value, comparatively, but not as valuable as a human being because there is no spirit. You can move, if you like; you can go immediately. But this, for many thousands of years it will lie down here. It cannot move, because there is no spirit. Therefore spirit is important. So this distinction is possible to understand in the human form of body. What is the distinction between a human being or a living man and this box? The distinction is that the living being has the spirit soul within and the box has no spirit soul within. Now if we take care of this box outwardly, that we should take; similarly if you take care of the body only, then where is spiritual culture? If you take care of the four principles of bodily necessities—eating, sleeping and sex and defense—then where is spiritual culture? The aim should be spiritual culture, at least for human being. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand what is the distinction between spirit and soul, er, spirit and matter, but a human being can understand that, "This is spiritual side; this is material side. The spiritual side is important." Therefore the goal is how to understand the spiritual side. (break) That is the goal. If we don't cultivate the spiritual side, simply we take care of the bodily side, then we remain animals. And because people are taking only care for the body, this is animal civilization. Human civilization means to take care of the spiritual side. If there is no such attempt to take care of the spiritual side, simply for the material side, then we are no better than the animals. Because they cannot take any care of the spiritual side; they can take care of the material side. Is the soul dependent upon the body for its existence? Hmm? Soul is dependent? Upon the body for existence. Yes. At the present moment, the soul is dependent on the material body because he has no spiritual culture. Just like we Indians, we were under the British rule. So long there was no national movement, they remained dependent on the Britishers. But as soon as there was national movement, they became independent. This is a crude example. Similarly, because we have no spiritual cultivation, we are dependent on this material body. Actually, the soul is not dependent on the body. It has become so under certain condition: because he's thinking that he is this body. They have been described as mūḍha. Mūḍha is an ass. Mūḍha means ass. So I do not know what it is here. In India the asses are kept by the washerman. The washerman loads tons of cloth on the back of the ass to take it to the waterside, and again he brings back to the washerman shop, and the washerman gives a morsel of grass, little, and he eats the grass and stands there to carry the tons of load, thinking that he's dependent on the washerman. He has no intelligence that, "The grass can be had anywhere. Why I am dependent on this washerman to carry so much load?" Lack of knowledge. Similarly, we are dependent on this body for lack of spiritual knowledge. As soon as he'll be enlightened by spiritual knowledge, then no more dependence. Therefore it is needed. Otherwise, he'll remain like an ass, perpetually dependent on the washerman. Mūḍha . We are thinking that without this body we cannot live. No. That is not the fact. We can live independently of this body. But our present position, because we have no spiritual culture, we are thinking that we are dependent on this body. Actually, we are not dependent. That will be revealed the more you advance in spiritual culture. What was his question before? Is your question satisfied? Yes. (pause) (referring to something in room) It is something like gum? Yes. Does it require change? No. Change? Yes. No, I have got it filled in my . . . (indistinct) No, it's finished after a while. Just twenty minutes. Oh. Then I shall put another? Dependence for twenty minutes. That is my dependence, for twenty minutes or twenty years or twenty millions of years. There are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty minutes. And there are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty years. And there are many animals who depend on the body for twenty millions of years. It is a question of proportion. But actually the spirit soul is not dependent on any type of body twenty minutes or twenty years and twenty millions of years. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Find out this. "One who knows the transcendent nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Somebody else? There are some guests coming. (background discussion as guests move around) Come forward. No, let them come in. So whether these gentlemen's questions are answered? If they have got any doubt, we can . . . Through association they will ask more questions. What is that verse? "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." So this is the process of becoming independent of the material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is the process. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to make one independent of this material body. Any other questions? Then bring my beads. (long pause) My question is whether you like to remain dependent on this material body. Hmm? If you can live spiritually independent, whether you should remain dependent on this material body, and whether to remain dependent on this material body is happy or it is distress? What is your realization? To remain dependent on this material body, is it very good or is it troublesome, huh? Suffering. Suffering, very good. If you remain dependent on this material body, then suffering. So why don't you become independent? That is the next question. Attachment. Attachment, maybe. That is not a very important thing. But if there is a process, how to become independent of this body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. Just like a man suffering from illness—attachment or no attachment, he's now suffering from that illness—but he has put himself into hospitalization under some physician. So that process will cure him, and he'll not suffer from this disease. That is the hope. Or that is the fact. Similarly, circumstantially, we may be dependent on this material body, but if there is a process how we can become independent of the body, why should we not take it? The same example: If a man is diseased, he's captured by the disease. Attachment or no attachment, it is difficult. But he must put himself under treatment so that he can be detached from it. That is intelligence. "I am caught by the disease. So let me suffer without any treatment," that is not intelligence. I must take the process of treatment by which . . . that is explained there, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Take this treatment so that after giving up this body you'll not have any more material body. And as soon as you become free from this material body, there is no suffering. But as soon as you get material body, you must suffer. So if there is way and means to avoid this material body, and remain in our original, spiritual body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. And is very simple thing. (aside) Read it again. "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities, does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Purport? *"The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the sixth verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage, and therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body. Such liberation of the living entity from material bondage is not at all easy. The impersonalists and the yogīs attain liberation only after much trouble and many, many births. Even then, the liberation they achieve, merging into the impersonal brahma*-jyotir of the Lord, is only partial, and there's the risk of returning again to this material world. But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning again to this material world. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated that the Lord has many, many forms and incarnations: advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (BS 5.33). Although there are many transcendental forms of the Lord, they are still one and the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. One has to understand this fact with conviction, although it is incomprehensible to mundane scholars and empiric philosophers. As stated in the Vedas :" "The one Supreme Personality of Godhead is eternally engaged in many, many transcendental forms in relationships with His unalloyed devotees.' This Vedic version is confirmed in this verse of the *Gītā* personally by the Lord. He who accepts this truth on the strength of the authority of the *Vedas* and of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and who does not waste time in philosophical speculations, attains the highest perfectional stage of liberation. Simply by accepting this truth on faith, one can, without a doubt, attain liberation. The Vedic version, tat tvam asi , is actually applied in this case. Anyone who understands Lord Kṛṣṇa to be the Supreme, or who says unto the Lord, 'You are the Supreme Brahman, the Personality of Godhead,' is certainly liberated instantly, and consequently his entrance into the transcendental association of the Lord is guaranteed. In other words, such a faithful devotee of the Lord attains perfection, and this is confirmed by the following Vedic assertion:" *"One can attain the perfect stage of liberation from birth and death simply by knowing the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no alternative, because anyone who does not understand Lord Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is surely in the mode of ignorance. Consequently he will not attain salvation simply, so to speak, by licking the outer surface of the bottle of honey, or by interpreting the Bhagavad*-gītā according to mundane scholarship. Such empiric philosophers may assume many important roles in the material world, but they are not necessarily eligible for liberation. Such puffed-up mundane scholars have to wait for the causeless mercy of the devotee of the Lord. One should therefore cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness with faith and knowledge, and in this way attain perfection." So if there is some process to become independent of this material body, why should we not accept? What is the objection? (doorbell sounds) If somebody's suffering from some disease and if there is process of curing it, why one should not take it? (long pause) So your friends' questions and answers are welcome. They just came to listen, Śrīla Prabhupāda. No, they must be satisfied. (break) The young man who just came is Terry Graham. He'd come to see you two years ago when you were here. Oh, jaya . He's a journalist. Oh, yes. I remember. So he has got any question? Terry, do you have any questions? Terry: No. (long pause) *Terry: I have a question about this particular age. Where the world seems to be dividing itself between two kinds of materialists: the one which pays lip service to spiritual precedents but really devotes itself to self*-aggrandizement, and the other, which establishes an atheistic doctrine in the name of moral struggle with that greedy self-aggrandizement. In fact, this atheistic moral doctrine has now taken over virtually the entire Sinic world—China, Tibet, Indochina. Is there some way that . . . the question is, what is the cosmic purpose for this, and how should one come to terms with this prevailing . . . this increasingly prevailing notion that justice can be established in a material state or a material dimension? In the material world there cannot be any peace, justice, morality. It is not possible. You may try to make some adjustment, but it will never be possible. So, by their concocted imagination, they are thinking, "This way will be beneficial," but unless they come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of peace, prosperity, justice. It is not possible. Unless we come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of justice, morality, peace. It is not possible. They may attempt in different ways, by their mental speculative process, but actually it will never come to be true. They are all trying—the scientists, philosophers, politicians, religionists—to make some adjustment, but that is not possible. We must understand the material platform, these threefold miserable conditions. Just like we are trying to avoid some miserable condition, very insignificant—to get out of the disturbance created by the mosquitoes and the flies. We are trying our best, but still they are disturbing. Is it not? Still they find out some loopholes and go into the room and disturb you. So you cannot avoid. Similarly, the disturbances of nature—the severe cold, scorching heat—how you can counteract it? Is it possible? Not possible. Ādhyātmika , you may keep your body quite fit to your best knowledge, but still there will be some trouble, sometimes coughing, sometimes mental equilibrium is lost, you don't feel nice. So these things will go on. Because we have got this material body, the material conditions must work. You cannot make any adjustments. That's not possible. You have come to the spiritual platform independent of this material body, then there will be everything solved, on every purpose. They can waste their time for making an adjustment, but that is not possible. I have given some example, that everyone is trying to become free from the material disturbances, but it is not possible. Nobody is free from material disturbance. That is not possible. So if you actually want freedom from material disturbances, you have to come to the spiritual platform and cultivate spiritual knowledge and be fixed up. Then your life is successful. Is there a relationship, he's asking, between these disturbances and this age, that this time that we are living in . . . It is more or less. Sometimes you have got 110° temperature and sometimes you have got 70° temperature. But the disturbance is there. Either 110° or 70° or 30°, you'll have to feel the disturbance. You cannot stop it. So either you take the cause this age, or this country, or this atmosphere, we can say so, but it will continue. That is the nature of the material world. If you think that 110° is too much, "Let it be 100° . . ." That you concoct like that. In fact any such temperature will disturb you. That's a fact. You can think that if it would have been 100°, it would have been very nice. But that's not the fact. Either 110° or 100°, it is disturbing. That is a fact. Then how can you stop it? Anyone who wants to stop it, he's intelligent. And that is described here, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mam eti (BG 4.9). One has to understand this fundamentally, that so long I'll get this material body, I'll have to suffer. Maybe differences of degrees, but I will have to suffer. So my endeavor should be how to become independent of this material body. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Not to make a distinction of different degrees. Different degrees . . . one position . . . "One man's food, another man's poison," the same degree. If you think that it is nice, another man will suffer. So suffering will continue. That is not possible to . . . (indistinct) . . . it is the nature of material world, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). (aside) Find out this verse. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. This material world is full of miseries. That they do not understand. Miserable condition they are accepting as pleasing. That is called ignorance. "After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection." *The material world is full of miseries. It may be of different degrees, but it is full of miseries. You cannot avoid by adjustment. That is not possible. Therefore the materialist, they are trying. Just like in this country, Iran, now the Iranians are trying to become as opulent as the Americans are. They are trying to build up similar cities and industries. But do you think they will be happy then? No. Are the Americans happy by having big, big cities? No. That is not possible. Now they are trying to imitate, but that is a false attempt. That is not the life. They can see that Americans have got big, big cities, they have big, big organizations, but are they happy actually or not? From practical example. Then why you are attempting again to imitate them? That intelligence is lacking. How they will be happy, they do not know it. They are trying to imitate somebody else who is already on the standard, so*-called, but still they are not happy. The Communists, they're trying for the last fifty years to become happy, but are they happy actually? No. The Russians and the Chinese, they are now differing, "No, this is not the standard. This is standard." So the same thing is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). It is like chewing the chewed, that's all. Somebody has chewed the sugarcane and it's thrown away. Another man comes, "Let me taste it." And what you'll taste? It is already finished. *So all these "isms," they are all finished. All the scientific discoveries, they are all finished. And where is happiness? This is not the way. That is the . . . mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). You have to attempt in such a way that after giving up this body, you go back home, back to Godhead, never come back again here. This is the way. Otherwise, there is no happiness. Go on struggling, that is your choice. Make new attempts. Just like this moon excursion. Ten years ago in one small book, Easy Journey to Other Planets , we predicted that this moon*-going attempt is childish and waste of time. We are not expert scientist, but from the śāstra we can understand. Now such a brilliant planet, pleasing, and they have discovered there rocks and sand. Just see their intelligence. Do you think rocks and sand is so brilliant? What do you think? This bluff is going on. People are feeling under the moonshine is so pleasing, and it is full of rocks and sand. We have to accept that. Rocks and sand, throughout the whole day by scorching heat, they also become heated. So at night it is suffering. So if it is rocks and sand, so whole day it was heated by the sunshine, how it is pleasing? . . . but if there is no material activities, then you are not affected. This is possible. Just like an iron rod, you put into the fire. Gradually, it becomes warmer, warmer, and at last, when it is red hot, it is fire, no more iron. Similarly, even though we have got this material body, if we cultivate spiritual life, then the activities of the material body will stop automatically. Therefore it is no more material body. The same example, the iron rod has become already fire. So you put it in the fire, and continue it, then you'll understand that it is no more iron rod, it is fire. Touch anywhere, it will burn. You cannot say it is iron bar. Similarly, if you become spiritually enlightened, then the material activities will stop, and then you'll be happy. (break) You'll feel, "Yes, I have got some . . . (indistinct) . . ." In the last chapter which he read, he was . . . I think you read about the yogīs who can get to this high level of consciousness and then they can still fall back. That's like, my question: what was the cause for this? *If you do not come to the point of fulfillment of your appetite—you are eating, but if you have not sufficiently eaten, then you want more to eat. But if you have sufficiently eaten, then you will say: "No, no, no. No more I want." Even if you are offered, "Take more food." You'll say: "No, I have enough." It is a question of sufficiency and insufficiency. If you are insufficiently spiritually advanced, you'll feel vacancy so much. But if you are sufficiently advanced, then you'll say: "It is all right now." It is a question of sufficiency, insufficiency. So other method, jñāna , yoga , they are insufficient. And bhakti*-yoga is sufficient. Therefore you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). (aside) Find out this verse. He never recommends jñāna , yoga , karma . Bhakti . So if you take the path of bhakti , then you'll feel sufficiency. Otherwise, you'll feel insufficient. To some extent, although it is perfect, but it is not completely perfect. "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." That's it. Unless you enter into the kingdom of God, you'll not feel full satisfaction. Even if you go to the moon planet or Mars planet, there is no question of satisfaction. (to guest) So your question is whether one can enter this kingdom of God with this body. *No, that is already explained— tyaktvā dehaṁ . Giving up this body, one can enter in spiritual world. Viśate tad*-anantaram —after death. By bhakti , when he's mature and he gives up this body, then he enters into the spiritual world. Tyaktvā deham, giving up this body. You cannot enter; *although by devotional service the material activities of the body will stop, but you have to wait for the moment when this material body is no more existing, then with spiritual body you can enter. Tyaktvā deham, mām eti. Viśate tad*-anantaram. Tad-anantaram : after death. And if you have got little pinch of material attachment, then you'll have to accept another material body. So we have come to the point that no more I want anything material. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). I am no more anyone's servant. I am neither American nor Iranian nor Indian nor Hindu nor Muslim, not this, not that; I'm simply servant of . . . that is my position. And so long I shall keep attachment for this designation, temporary . . . what is this "Iranian," "American," "Indian"? Say for few years. Because you have to change this body. Tyaktvā deham. Tathā dehāntaram . So after giving up this body, you have to accept another body. If I am in the next body I become a sparrow, then where is my conception of Iranian, Indian and Hindu, and Muslim? I am sparrow, jumping like sparrow, that's all. So these are designations, temporary designations. One has to become free from these temporary designations. Then he's liberated. That is bhakti . So this life should be utilized for purifying ourself from this designation. If you keep the designation, then there is no possibility of purification. You'll get another designation. Now we are Indian or Iranian, next a sparrow or a crow or a tree or a demigod—another designation. Just like the same: the child, a baby, on the lap of the mother, a baby; and another designation, boy; another designation, young man; another designation, old man. But the spirit soul is the same. He's simply changing designation. So freedom means freedom from these all these designations. I am spirit, ahaṁ brahmāsmi . I am spirit soul, my business is spiritual activity. So long we want to keep designation, you'll have to accept material body and suffer. *So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to educate people how to become free from designations. Therefore we accept from any group. He might think that he is under designation . . . but our business is to make him free from the designation. We therefore welcome anyone. He may come with designation, but if he lives with us, he follows our rules and regulations, he become free from designation. And this so*-called designated religious system will not help us. If we keep ourself on the designated platform—"I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Iranian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am Buddhist"—then we have to continue in that designation. There is no question of freedom. That requires tapasya . That designationless status is called brahma-bhūtaḥ . And the opposite of brahma-bhūtaḥ is jīva-bhutaḥ. Jīva-bhutaḥ . . . there are so many jīvas , living entities. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." And the bird is thinking, "I am bird." The man is thinking, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." So this designation, you may be a dog designation or Hindu designation or Muslim, they are the same. There is no difference. Maybe some degrees. But one has to become designationless. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Then bhakti , when one is designationless. If he wants to keep his designation, then there is no question of bhakti . The bhakti line is so nice that if you take to bhakti line, automatically you'll be designationless. (pause) Now you have to decide whether you want to keep designation or become free from designation. (pause) Śrīla Prabhupāda, thank you very much. (guests leave) (break) . . . activity, but he still has designation and he comes to the temple and he chants, but he still thinks . . . That is an attempt to become designationless. But one has to become free from designation. The same example: If the rod is put in the fire, it is becoming warm, warmer, warmer, and when it is red hot it is no more rod, it is fire. So beginning of life, neophyte stage, is the beginning. When he actually becomes advanced in devotional service, that is designationless. But we still call that, when a person first comes and he still has that designation stage, but we still call that bhakti ? No, he's on the platform. Just like the same example. The iron rod is put in the fire. So it is fiery condition. Similarly, one who has given to devotional service, he is in the designationless condition, but it requires time to make the iron rod exactly fire. Same thing as that pulling the plug out of the fan. Huh? Same example, pulling the plug out and fan keeps going for some . . . *There are so many examples. There are so many examples. The beginning stage and the perfect stage. Perfect stage, designationless. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, in the beginning, api cet su*-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30): even he's not completely a devotee, still, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ , you must accept him as a devotee. Why? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. He has taken to the process completely. So there may be some designations of his on account of past habit, but because he has taken to the process of becoming designationless, he is sādhu . If he sticks to the principle, kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati (BG 9.31), he'll very soon he'll become a perfect devotee and he'll get peace— śaśvac-chānti-kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati . These things are there. So one has to take the line of Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, then everything automatically will appear. There is no . . . that is called utsāhān dhairyāt. Dhairyāt , patience. Niścayād : "I have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness exactly as Kṛṣṇa wants, then I'll surely be perfect." That is niścayād . There is no doubt about it. If I am following the direction of Kṛṣṇa under the guidance of spiritual master, be sure that you'll be successful. There is no question of becoming unsuccessful. Niścayād . But if I am deviating, that is my . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you follow, then you'll be sure to be successful. Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that what Lord Caitanya is trying to teach Haridāsa Ṭhākura when he says, "Put away your excess humility"? Hmm? Haridāsa Ṭhākura is following all the principles, but he's always feeling so fallen. So Lord Caitanya tells him, "Put away your excess humility." Is this what He is trying to teach him? That we should have assurance? *Assurance is there. Kṛṣṇa says, kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhakta . . . (BG 9.31). If you remain pure devotee, you'll never fall down. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). These are assurances. If you simply try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, why does He come, what are His activities, janma karma ca me divyam , simply . . . this is cultivation, to understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa consciousness cultivation. And Kṛṣṇa assures, tyaktvā dehaṁ : you have to give up this body. But for a devotee giving up this body means no more accepting another body. And nondevotees giving up this body, tathā dehāntara prāptir : another body. That is the difference between devotee and nondevotee. One may say both of them are dying. Yes, they are dying, that's all right. They are not dying—nobody is dying—but changing the body. But a devotee's changing not to accept any more material body. The nondevotees changing to accept another. That is the difference. And if you accept another body you will suffer, more or less, degrees. And if you don't accept material body, then you become spiritually situated. Sac*-cid-ānanda vigraha (BS 5.1), simply ānanda , eternally blissful. Very easy. *So we should be intelligent enough that if by practicing in this one life I can get next eternal, blissful life of knowledge, why shall I deviate? Even if there is some difficulty, let me tolerate. What is the difficulty? Caitanya Mahāprabhu given so easy, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and everything will be done perfectly. So where is the difficulty? No difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has not bluffed. He said kalau nāsty eva : in Kali*-yuga you cannot do anything more. You do, simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty now? A boy can chant. It is simply practice, association. Your son, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. *So these chances should be given to everyone, then everything will be all right. Let him be practiced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then everything will go on. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Where is the difficulty, unless we make it difficult? Otherwise there is no difficulty. Otherwise suffering. Just like this lamb. It has got the Iranian body, but he's kept there for being killed. So what is the benefit of this Iranian body? But people are very much enthusiastic to remain nationalists, "I am Iranian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that." So, but he has worked in a different way, so he has got attachment for becoming American and Iranian, "All right you become." And according to work you have to become a lamb, and other Iranians eat you. That's all. This is designation. They do not understand, or they are not educated that what he will get by these designations. Big, big movement is going on on this designation platform. In our country, Mahatma Gandhi, he supposed to be a great personality, but what is his teaching? He remained in designation, that's all. "Feel like Indian and drive away the English." By one designation, you drive away another designation. This is going on. And he took Bhagavad*-gītā and never said: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." This is going on. Karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa sakale viṣera bandha (Prema-bhakti-candrikā). This is karma-kāṇḍa . Designation means this. And higher than this karma-kāṇḍa , the mental speculators, jñāna-kāṇḍa . So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, both of them viṣera bandha , pot of poison. If you waste your time in this way, then they will get another body, that's all. Nana yoni bhraman kare kadārya bhakṣana kare, tara janma adha pate yaya . These are simple words, but it contains very, very grave meaning from the Vaiṣṇava ācārya . Where is Ātreya Ṛṣi? Ātreya Ṛṣi? I'll get him. *If we take that analogy, karma*-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa , then . . . *Everything is going on, karma*-kāṇḍa . Whole world acting fruitive activities: "Let me work and get the result." This is karma-kāṇḍa . And it is like poison. From poison we suffer and die. Yes, it is . . . die means spiritual death. No spiritual idea. Otherwise, we have no death, nitya . But spiritual death is there. (Ātreya Ṛṣi enters, offers obeisances) So your friends are satisfied or not? Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They said they were. This is scientific truth. I have noticed that people who are materially contaminated, when they hear spiritual preaching, they can always look at it from material point of view. For example, when you speak of designation, one boy was asking how come we are also having shaved heads and dressing like devotees. In other words, the emphasis on their minds is more on what is everybody else thinking, while the emphasis in your teaching is how you yourself can become free, not what everybody else is thinking. While our shaving of our head and dressing as devotee is a means to become free from all designation, he may be seeing other designations. No, it does not depend on shaving head. But this is in the process. It is in the process. *Yes. By shaving . . . there are so many shaven*-headed. Does it means that he's in the process? Just like a doctor carries one stethoscope. But if somebody thinks, "Let me carry a stethoscope, I'll become a doctor." (break) But for a doctor the stethoscope is required. But if a false man takes a stethoscope and declares himself a doctor, medical man, then he is cheating. (pause) You get here puffed rice? No. Yes. Get? We . . . let me ask. We may have little bit. No, here they prepare puffed rice? No. From India or from America. We don't have. You get imported. Yes. Would you like me to ask? Yes, few grains. We have some flat rice with us, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We brought some flat rice, cheera . No, don't . . . (indistinct) . . . I shall not take it. Did he see that in the store now? I'm asking if he saw it in the store. No, it is not here, we got it. What is that? No. Don't take trouble. I'll not take. No trouble. I have some friends in American commissary, friends like that. They could possibly get it. I'll call them. You get some tomorrow. Can I see if we can fix you some, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Puffed rice? No. What would you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda? No, doesn't matter. Someone has given us some from India. Puffed rice? Yes. Bring it, let me see. (pause) I think today is cooler, so I don't require to lie down outside. Sleep inside? Huh? Sleep inside? It's coming to pūrṇimā . Yes. Moon is cooling effect. Desert will make a cooling effect. (laughter) Just see. At least I shall not believe that this is desert and rock. I am not so fool. The desert and rock is giving so nice brilliant shining, everyone is feeling comfortable. Just see. We have to believe it. Because Kṛṣṇa is missing. They don't accept Kṛṣṇa. No, they should have at least common sense. But they have no common sense. Kṛṣṇa is far away from here, for these rascals, but at least they should have common sense. But that also they have not. Even they have not common sense. Children are always asking . . . it is a folk thing that children ask, "What is the moon made of? Mother, father, what is the moon made of?" They ask? Generally, when they young, "What is the moon?" "What is the moon made of?" So they used to answer, "It's made of green cheese." (laughter) *You believe that it is desert and rock and giving so nice shining, cooling effect? In Vedic literature there is always comparison, analogy, with moon, moon*-faced, candra-mukhi . There are so many. Best thing is compared with the moon. We have named Māyāpur-candra. Māyāpur-candrodaya Mandira. Do you mean that a desert is coming out from Māyāpur? (pause) You have got rock candy? Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Give me little. Prabhupāda, your temples are the real spaceships. We can go to the other planets and to Kṛṣṇaloka from your temples. Yes, therefore I've given you *Easy Journey to Other Planets* . (devotee brings in puffed rice) It is from India? It is from India. Fresh. Would you like it fried a little? Little make it hot. Hot. We can little heat it. That's all. After heating, put little ghee, very little, and mix it with black pepper and salt. We mix it or you mix it? I can mix. We'll bring it separately. But this is good. And also we can bring some fruit? No . . . (indistinct) . . . keep it there. So this is nice. Shall I put some on this lid, or . . .? Hmm. (background discussion as devotees arrange things) Some Indian gentleman has given? This is Mrs. Patel. We asked. She has prepared or . . .? No, from India. Persian rice is famous. Yes. It is prepared in a different way. It is prepared differently. Persian rice? Yes, we prepare it also differently. How? We first boil it and then take the water out and then steam it, steam it with ghee . So first of all you boil? And take the water out. Paddy? Paddy? No, boil for two three minutes and then steam. Rice? Yes then steam. And it makes very long, individual . . . And then you dry? No. We eat it like that. For two, three days? No. No. They eat it immediately after cooking. Oh. Was that the rice she made? She prepared it that way last night? This afternoon? No. This rice isn't even Persian; it's American rice. Persian rice is too expensive, even in Persia. (indistinct background conversation) (break) They make very nice puffed rice in Bengal. How do they make it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Not difficult. The paddy, they are boiled. And then again baked in the sunshine. Again boil, then again baked in the sunshine. Then the skin is taken out by that ḍheṅki , what is called? That rice . . . Thresher? *That is that ḍheṅki , husking machine, the skin is taken away. Then mixed with salt and make it heated. Then when it is prepared, then they heat sand, and in that heated sand they put the rice, and immediately putt*-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt . Like that. They also make it like that in America? Huh? *In America they probably have a short*-cut process. Maybe. What method? Industrial. Machines. (laughs) We used to have for breakfast. (end) Conversation A -- August 9, 1976, Tehran If you find out sand and rocks, you must also . . . (indistinct) . . . there was water. And from water, vegetation comes. From vegetation, other life comes. What we speak, we don't speak unscientifically. It is scientific. How this rascal says all of a sudden in the sky there is rock? Where from the rock came? Well, they say originally from gas. Gas? Gas. So gas . . . without water, there cannot be gas. Gas, and then it liquifies and then it solidifies. Liquid means water. So as soon as there is water, there is vegetation. You'll find everywhere. Water dries up, vegetable comes. Today they are exploring Mars, and they are saying that they're finding water on Mars. *Water's there. Everything must be there. Pañca*-bhūta, mahā-bhūta. Ether, then fire, then water, then land. Everything is described in the Bhāgavatam . They cannot speak nonsense. They can speak nonsense through the other literatures, but we cannot speak. Without water, how there is possibility of sand? Sand means it is salt. If you go out here, there is a big desert. That means there was water. Yes, and under the desert always. I took a trip a few weeks ago, all over Iran, through the deserts, to villages, and always just forty feet, forty meters under the desert, lots of water. They would bring the water up and then there would be green, they would grow vegetables. So even here there's water. The water, sea, as it becomes solidified, the outer surface, by sunshine they become, it is called sodium silicate. Salt is sodium chloride. So from sodium chloride, the sodium silicate. So cover of the sea they can solidify by the sodium silicate. But underneath there is water. Just like our this skin, bone, coming from where? We are eating liquid and . . . or some vegetables or some whatever, they are becoming liquidified. And first transformation is blood. Blood is liquid, and from blood everything is coming. The muscle is coming, the bone is coming. The more the liquid portion becomes solidified by air, gas, then these things coming. The formation of this body beginning the liquid semina, liquid ovum, mix together. From liquid. Then they form pea like solid thing, from that liquid. And then the body forms. Where from the solid body forms? The man injects liquid. Liquid inject, everything is coming. So where from the solid body comes? By chemical composition the body forms, from liquid to solid. So as soon as you see some solid thing, you must know that it has come from liquid. It got its form from liquid. The form, it had to come from liquid somehow. Whatever it may be. Yes, liquid. The discharge of semina is liquid. It is not solid. So how this body comes? You cannot bluff that a solid has come all of a sudden. There was liquid, or there is liquid. Well, they'll accept that there was liquid. Yes, then there must have been vegetable. As soon as there is liquid there is vegetation. Their argument is that because there's no atmosphere, then there's no vegetation. *Oh, that is . . . that is another bogus. The atmosphere is the same everywhere. Little more. Just like in . . . (break) . . . say in the sun planet there is living entity, that is fire. So what do you mean by atmosphere, if even in fire there is life? Dahati pāvakaḥ . Bhagavad*-gītā . Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ ( BG 2.23). Pāvakaḥ means fire. Does not burn the soul. So where there is fire only, he develops fiery body. Not that by the fire it is finished. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . Where there is gas, air, nainam . . . find out this verse. Acchedyo' yam adāhyo' yam . *Gītā* ? *Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. You do not read even. You should have reference immediately. (devotees search for verse) Even here on the earth, even ice in the South Pole of the earth, they find much life inside the ice. Just see. Here inside the ice there are life. They are very surprised. They said, "How is this happening?" Yes. Life is everywhere. This bogus theory there is no life, the atmosphere is different, it is bogus, simply bogus. Because spirit soul is never affected by any material atmosphere. That is the distinction between matter and spirit. It has nothing to do with 19:00 19:01 material atmosphere. They don't have knowledge, they are baffled. And those who have no knowledge, they are accepting. "The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind." *So where is question of atmosphere influence? Suppose there is rock and sand and always hot weather. That does not mean there cannot be any life. The life is never affected by all these things. Make propaganda about this knowledge. People will understand that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not joking, it is something serious. That boy was saying that these scientist, they know me. What is this boy's name, this boy said about the so*-called astronomer, scientist? Who was this boy? Who came last night? One of our boys, American boy, that tall boy. Jñānagamya. Here in this temple? Yes. Jñānagamya. He used to work with some science research as well. (indistinct comments about Jñānagamya) The scientists are like all materialists. They think if we have not seen it . . . (coughing heavily) You have to see from the book. Seeing from the book is real seeing. What you can see with these blunt eyes? I have seen in these navigators. They see in the different plans and books, and they direct their ship or airplane accordingly. How can he see where we are going? Just like they land an aeroplane. *Yes. They have got all plans and direction, and altitude, latitude and everything, which direction is going on in front of the pilot. So everything is there. In what position the plane is there, how high it is and how low it will be, where it is—everything. On that direction they can fly. Otherwise, what they can see with the eyes? Utmost ten miles, and it is running at six hundred miles? What ten miles will do them? So śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. Authoritative literature should be the eyes, not these blunt eyes. What is the value of these eyes? Now here is authority: nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . You should go to the school, colleges, and from Bhagavad-gītā give them real knowledge. The whole world is in darkness, and these rascals are guiding them. (pause) You have tasted the barā ? Nim barā ? This morning. Huh? Did you like it? It tasted very healthy. Healthy? Healthy. Healthy? What is that? It tasted like it was good for me. That means it didn't taste very nice, but we accepted it was good. I know by my intelligence that it is good to keep eating, even though my tongue was saying "Stop." No, this neem is good. They say that if you eat at least two leaves of neem daily, you'll never lose your appetite. Appetite will be continuing. Who can eat two leaves of neem? (laughing) No, if you practice, it is not impossible. I ate them one time. Remember in Bombay, I thought I had worms? You told me to eat nim? Effective? What happened? Well, I didn't notice anything happened, but it was very, very bitter, so bitter. So that worms cured or not? I don't know. Sometimes I think I have worms. You should not eat sweet. You cannot get neem in Iran. I have never seen a neem tree in Iran. No tree, simply desert. Where is tree? All desert. All this Middle East, desert. So they can be allowed to eat meat. Otherwise, how for they'll eat? Everyone must eat something. So if there is no vegetation, if there is no sufficient, they can be allowed. I visited some of these small villages in the south of Iran, and the tents of nomads who kept sheep, that was their life. They had a tent and they had hundreds of sheep, and they would move the tent every month. They would take the tent, for one month they would live here, and next month they would move. Why they're changing? Because they're desert people. The sheep eat all the little green, and then they have to move on. Same thing as the Bible. When the sheep eat up all the green in that place, then they have to go to another place with their sheep. In the Bible the same thing. All that Abraham, Joseph . . . Bible was produced here, in this desert land. Jerusalem is not far away. Mecca, Medina . . . (indistinct) . . . Arabia. All they had to eat was the milk of sheep and goats, and sometimes when they would camp near a farm they would have vegetables. Sometimes. And then the meat of the sheep. And these dates. In the desert the date tree grows. Sometimes they eat camel also. Is it not? Yes. But I don't think if they . . . They cannot be strictly vegetarian; it is not possible. It is difficult. But even they eat meat, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no harm. But now they are farming in the desert. The Iranian government has started farms. They are irrigating the land with water, and when they put water on the desert they get all kinds of vegetables and grains very easily. So if they do that then they can become vegetarian, they have no excuse. The excuse of the people is that, "We have to eat meat." They can have rains from the sky by chanting. The rain will fall from the sky. Who can check it? (coughs heavily) Kṛṣṇa gives the water from the sky. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). They say in their books that this area used to be all forest with many, many trees about two to three thousand years ago. It was a very thick forest. But since then it has become desert; the rain has stopped since then. Because the yajña stopped. That Sahara Desert used to be all trees, very fertile. Sahara Desert in Africa, it is the biggest desert in the world. Nothing . . . Sahara, Sahara. Sahara Desert. It used to be very rich thousands of years ago, but then became desert. It's supposed to increase its size by ten miles every year. Desert growth. Formerly, that city Carthage used to be there. Carthage was fighting Rome. Carthage was very rich, all farms. Cartharian civilization was very big civilization. The thing is that the more people become sinful, they'll be disturbed by this natural atmosphere. Therefore I'm surprised that moon planet is inhabited by pious inhabitants, how there can be desert? But does moon planet have something to do with pitṛs ? Does the Pitṛ . . . Pitṛloka is different? Pitṛ ? Pitā, Pitṛ ? No, Pitṛloka is different. That is downwards. Does that pitṛ , does that refer to the original progenitors? No, forefathers. Latest development they are finding water in Mars? They find . . . it is very difficult for them, because they are using their eyes and other instruments. They have found places where there were rivers, and they are finding ice and other things. So I don't know the latest developments. It is obvious to them there is life, different kinds of life. The way of testing for life . . . Why you are spoiling your nails? It may come to a boil, and then you'll understand. It is very dangerous habit. If there is little . . . (indistinct) . . . then it will become a boil. *Jñānagamya said that on Mars they found something like a crater with a house. Looked like a . . . or a bombed*-out thing. This Jñānagamya was working with a . . . he works with some information service, U.S. Information Service. So he was in charge of designing something here for Fourth of July, some program. So he got this information from this U.S. Information Service which generally . . . sometimes it isn't made public. It's just in their U.S. service. They'd seen some kind of a crater with . . . Roads in it as well. Yes, something with roads in it or something, they'd seen The way they test for life is they take some soil and they mix certain things with it, and then they wait and see if there is some life development from that. That is nonsense. Yes. They mix ammonia and . . . Same chemical theory. Why do they not in the end mix something and see if life is coming? They are all rascals, speaking one after another. That's their whole thing, that if . . . If by mixing something they can bring life, why not in the egg? Yes, they can't even do it here, where there's so much life. Simply for . . . but you rascals, you cannot understand how they are speaking rascaldom. No, I can see now. I've been with you so long I can understand now. They have sent this one ship to Mars at a cost of one billion dollars. They are making these tests. Now they've got a second one going around as well. That's Viking 1 that's on there now, and they have another one, Viking 2, that's designed to orbit. Vikings were names of pirates. Viking means pirates. Pirate's a thief. Vikings, they used to be thieves. They've named their spaceship Viking. (laughs) (break) . . . main idea going to the other planets? Colonization, or what? One thing, they say, is security, that America and Russia are fighting. So it was a race to get to the moon because they think that from other planets that they can control conditions on the earth. From another planet they can control weather or they can control different things. Just see how bogus. That is one thing they say, they must get to the moon first, for security. That is now failure. Now they'll do it from Mars. Not so much from there for security. It's just . . . Their pride. One country, just like children playing, one can say: "I can fly higher than you," and so "We can go to the moon before you can." For no reason than just to show they can do it. It's an excuse to spend money. It's for fun. They cannot settle up their misunderstanding here. By going to the moon planet, they'll do it. That's one thing that they said they were going to do, actually. They had some Russian astronauts and some American astronauts, and they had them meet in space, and then they joined their spaceships together, and then they had a meal together and did some experiments, and then they left again. So that was very much acclaimed as bringing the two nations closer together. We are afraid of these two classes of rascals. "Afraid of" means we don't want their association. It is very dangerous. You said in the *Bhāgavatam* , just now, that we are afraid of the materialistic men. Yes. Personally I feel, I have several times told. For a devotee to live with nondevotees is so obnoxious and troublesome, it is sometimes mentioned, better to remain within a cage surrounded by fire, and still, don't remain with nondevotees. You prefer to live within a cage surrounded by fire. That living is preferable than to live with this nondevotee class. A lot of the devotees had that experience living with their parents before they joined the movement. It was so hellish they had to get out. Then they, some way or other, met . . . *Bhakta*-sane bās , that is the essential part of progressing. (pause) Dayānanda's daughter came, in my lavatory. When you were in? Yes, I was going . . . In? Yes. (break) Generally, this barā are made with paṭola leaves, paṭola leaves mashed and mixed with this dahī . Is that just as healthy as neem leaves? Paṭola leaves? Just the same. It is better. (break) . . . the influence of the moon planet, the vegetation grows. Do they accept, the modern botanists, influence of moon planet? All the farmers, they . . . They do believe? They believe that. They plant certain seeds according to the moon. Just see. *Even in the West they only plant certain things on the waxing moon, not on the waning moon. On śukla*-pakṣa. And moon is vacant. By the influence of moon, other vegetation growing, and it cannot grow itself. They admit that the moon rays have some kind of potency. They know that. No, it is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* . In the Jyotiṣa it has . . . it controls liquids. And I think even in hospitals here, near Pūrṇimā, where some of the times they don't like to do the operations because there will be more . . . the blood will run more. Something, they have some . . . someone had told me. The tides are also going according to the moon. The rivers are running according to the moon. In the Ganges, one time we went, swimming in Calcutta . . . The ebb tide, flow tide, according to the moon. Something like that. One day the Ganges was very peaceful, and then we went again and it was rushing. If you went in you would just be carried away. You could only . . . (break) You can do it here. (referring to massage) You don't want to go outside today? Sunshine is bright. (end) Conversation A -- August 9, 1976, Tehran If you find out sand and rocks, you must also . . . (indistinct) . . . there was water. And from water, vegetation comes. From vegetation, other life comes. What we speak, we don't speak unscientifically. It is scientific. How this rascal says all of a sudden in the sky there is rock? Where from the rock came? Well, they say originally from gas. Gas? Gas. So gas . . . without water, there cannot be gas. Gas, and then it liquifies and then it solidifies. Liquid means water. So as soon as there is water, there is vegetation. You'll find everywhere. Water dries up, vegetable comes. Today they are exploring Mars, and they are saying that they're finding water on Mars. *Water's there. Everything must be there. Pañca*-bhūta, mahā-bhūta. Ether, then fire, then water, then land. Everything is described in the Bhāgavatam . They cannot speak nonsense. They can speak nonsense through the other literatures, but we cannot speak. Without water, how there is possibility of sand? Sand means it is salt. If you go out here, there is a big desert. That means there was water. Yes, and under the desert always. I took a trip a few weeks ago, all over Iran, through the deserts, to villages, and always just forty feet, forty meters under the desert, lots of water. They would bring the water up and then there would be green, they would grow vegetables. So even here there's water. The water, sea, as it becomes solidified, the outer surface, by sunshine they become, it is called sodium silicate. Salt is sodium chloride. So from sodium chloride, the sodium silicate. So cover of the sea they can solidify by the sodium silicate. But underneath there is water. Just like our this skin, bone, coming from where? We are eating liquid and . . . or some vegetables or some whatever, they are becoming liquidified. And first transformation is blood. Blood is liquid, and from blood everything is coming. The muscle is coming, the bone is coming. The more the liquid portion becomes solidified by air, gas, then these things coming. The formation of this body beginning the liquid semina, liquid ovum, mix together. From liquid. Then they form pea like solid thing, from that liquid. And then the body forms. Where from the solid body forms? The man injects liquid. Liquid inject, everything is coming. So where from the solid body comes? By chemical composition the body forms, from liquid to solid. So as soon as you see some solid thing, you must know that it has come from liquid. It got its form from liquid. The form, it had to come from liquid somehow. Whatever it may be. Yes, liquid. The discharge of semina is liquid. It is not solid. So how this body comes? You cannot bluff that a solid has come all of a sudden. There was liquid, or there is liquid. Well, they'll accept that there was liquid. Yes, then there must have been vegetable. As soon as there is liquid there is vegetation. Their argument is that because there's no atmosphere, then there's no vegetation. *Oh, that is . . . that is another bogus. The atmosphere is the same everywhere. Little more. Just like in . . . (break) . . . say in the sun planet there is living entity, that is fire. So what do you mean by atmosphere, if even in fire there is life? Dahati pāvakaḥ . Bhagavad*-gītā . Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ ( BG 2.23). Pāvakaḥ means fire. Does not burn the soul. So where there is fire only, he develops fiery body. Not that by the fire it is finished. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . Where there is gas, air, nainam . . . find out this verse. Acchedyo' yam adāhyo' yam . *Gītā* ? *Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. You do not read even. You should have reference immediately. (devotees search for verse) Even here on the earth, even ice in the South Pole of the earth, they find much life inside the ice. Just see. Here inside the ice there are life. They are very surprised. They said, "How is this happening?" Yes. Life is everywhere. This bogus theory there is no life, the atmosphere is different, it is bogus, simply bogus. Because spirit soul is never affected by any material atmosphere. That is the distinction between matter and spirit. It has nothing to do with 19:00 19:01 material atmosphere. They don't have knowledge, they are baffled. And those who have no knowledge, they are accepting. "The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind." *So where is question of atmosphere influence? Suppose there is rock and sand and always hot weather. That does not mean there cannot be any life. The life is never affected by all these things. Make propaganda about this knowledge. People will understand that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not joking, it is something serious. That boy was saying that these scientist, they know me. What is this boy's name, this boy said about the so*-called astronomer, scientist? Who was this boy? Who came last night? One of our boys, American boy, that tall boy. Jñānagamya. Here in this temple? Yes. Jñānagamya. He used to work with some science research as well. (indistinct comments about Jñānagamya) The scientists are like all materialists. They think if we have not seen it . . . (coughing heavily) You have to see from the book. Seeing from the book is real seeing. What you can see with these blunt eyes? I have seen in these navigators. They see in the different plans and books, and they direct their ship or airplane accordingly. How can he see where we are going? Just like they land an aeroplane. *Yes. They have got all plans and direction, and altitude, latitude and everything, which direction is going on in front of the pilot. So everything is there. In what position the plane is there, how high it is and how low it will be, where it is—everything. On that direction they can fly. Otherwise, what they can see with the eyes? Utmost ten miles, and it is running at six hundred miles? What ten miles will do them? So śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. Authoritative literature should be the eyes, not these blunt eyes. What is the value of these eyes? Now here is authority: nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . You should go to the school, colleges, and from Bhagavad-gītā give them real knowledge. The whole world is in darkness, and these rascals are guiding them. (pause) You have tasted the barā ? Nim barā ? This morning. Huh? Did you like it? It tasted very healthy. Healthy? Healthy. Healthy? What is that? It tasted like it was good for me. That means it didn't taste very nice, but we accepted it was good. I know by my intelligence that it is good to keep eating, even though my tongue was saying "Stop." No, this neem is good. They say that if you eat at least two leaves of neem daily, you'll never lose your appetite. Appetite will be continuing. Who can eat two leaves of neem? (laughing) No, if you practice, it is not impossible. I ate them one time. Remember in Bombay, I thought I had worms? You told me to eat nim? Effective? What happened? Well, I didn't notice anything happened, but it was very, very bitter, so bitter. So that worms cured or not? I don't know. Sometimes I think I have worms. You should not eat sweet. You cannot get neem in Iran. I have never seen a neem tree in Iran. No tree, simply desert. Where is tree? All desert. All this Middle East, desert. So they can be allowed to eat meat. Otherwise, how for they'll eat? Everyone must eat something. So if there is no vegetation, if there is no sufficient, they can be allowed. I visited some of these small villages in the south of Iran, and the tents of nomads who kept sheep, that was their life. They had a tent and they had hundreds of sheep, and they would move the tent every month. They would take the tent, for one month they would live here, and next month they would move. Why they're changing? Because they're desert people. The sheep eat all the little green, and then they have to move on. Same thing as the Bible. When the sheep eat up all the green in that place, then they have to go to another place with their sheep. In the Bible the same thing. All that Abraham, Joseph . . . Bible was produced here, in this desert land. Jerusalem is not far away. Mecca, Medina . . . (indistinct) . . . Arabia. All they had to eat was the milk of sheep and goats, and sometimes when they would camp near a farm they would have vegetables. Sometimes. And then the meat of the sheep. And these dates. In the desert the date tree grows. Sometimes they eat camel also. Is it not? Yes. But I don't think if they . . . They cannot be strictly vegetarian; it is not possible. It is difficult. But even they eat meat, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no harm. But now they are farming in the desert. The Iranian government has started farms. They are irrigating the land with water, and when they put water on the desert they get all kinds of vegetables and grains very easily. So if they do that then they can become vegetarian, they have no excuse. The excuse of the people is that, "We have to eat meat." They can have rains from the sky by chanting. The rain will fall from the sky. Who can check it? (coughs heavily) Kṛṣṇa gives the water from the sky. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). They say in their books that this area used to be all forest with many, many trees about two to three thousand years ago. It was a very thick forest. But since then it has become desert; the rain has stopped since then. Because the yajña stopped. That Sahara Desert used to be all trees, very fertile. Sahara Desert in Africa, it is the biggest desert in the world. Nothing . . . Sahara, Sahara. Sahara Desert. It used to be very rich thousands of years ago, but then became desert. It's supposed to increase its size by ten miles every year. Desert growth. Formerly, that city Carthage used to be there. Carthage was fighting Rome. Carthage was very rich, all farms. Cartharian civilization was very big civilization. The thing is that the more people become sinful, they'll be disturbed by this natural atmosphere. Therefore I'm surprised that moon planet is inhabited by pious inhabitants, how there can be desert? But does moon planet have something to do with pitṛs ? Does the Pitṛ . . . Pitṛloka is different? Pitṛ ? Pitā, Pitṛ ? No, Pitṛloka is different. That is downwards. Does that pitṛ , does that refer to the original progenitors? No, forefathers. Latest development they are finding water in Mars? They find . . . it is very difficult for them, because they are using their eyes and other instruments. They have found places where there were rivers, and they are finding ice and other things. So I don't know the latest developments. It is obvious to them there is life, different kinds of life. The way of testing for life . . . Why you are spoiling your nails? It may come to a boil, and then you'll understand. It is very dangerous habit. If there is little . . . (indistinct) . . . then it will become a boil. *Jñānagamya said that on Mars they found something like a crater with a house. Looked like a . . . or a bombed*-out thing. This Jñānagamya was working with a . . . he works with some information service, U.S. Information Service. So he was in charge of designing something here for Fourth of July, some program. So he got this information from this U.S. Information Service which generally . . . sometimes it isn't made public. It's just in their U.S. service. They'd seen some kind of a crater with . . . Roads in it as well. Yes, something with roads in it or something, they'd seen The way they test for life is they take some soil and they mix certain things with it, and then they wait and see if there is some life development from that. That is nonsense. Yes. They mix ammonia and . . . Same chemical theory. Why do they not in the end mix something and see if life is coming? They are all rascals, speaking one after another. That's their whole thing, that if . . . If by mixing something they can bring life, why not in the egg? Yes, they can't even do it here, where there's so much life. Simply for . . . but you rascals, you cannot understand how they are speaking rascaldom. No, I can see now. I've been with you so long I can understand now. They have sent this one ship to Mars at a cost of one billion dollars. They are making these tests. Now they've got a second one going around as well. That's Viking 1 that's on there now, and they have another one, Viking 2, that's designed to orbit. Vikings were names of pirates. Viking means pirates. Pirate's a thief. Vikings, they used to be thieves. They've named their spaceship Viking. (laughs) (break) . . . main idea going to the other planets? Colonization, or what? One thing, they say, is security, that America and Russia are fighting. So it was a race to get to the moon because they think that from other planets that they can control conditions on the earth. From another planet they can control weather or they can control different things. Just see how bogus. That is one thing they say, they must get to the moon first, for security. That is now failure. Now they'll do it from Mars. Not so much from there for security. It's just . . . Their pride. One country, just like children playing, one can say: "I can fly higher than you," and so "We can go to the moon before you can." For no reason than just to show they can do it. It's an excuse to spend money. It's for fun. They cannot settle up their misunderstanding here. By going to the moon planet, they'll do it. That's one thing that they said they were going to do, actually. They had some Russian astronauts and some American astronauts, and they had them meet in space, and then they joined their spaceships together, and then they had a meal together and did some experiments, and then they left again. So that was very much acclaimed as bringing the two nations closer together. We are afraid of these two classes of rascals. "Afraid of" means we don't want their association. It is very dangerous. You said in the *Bhāgavatam* , just now, that we are afraid of the materialistic men. Yes. Personally I feel, I have several times told. For a devotee to live with nondevotees is so obnoxious and troublesome, it is sometimes mentioned, better to remain within a cage surrounded by fire, and still, don't remain with nondevotees. You prefer to live within a cage surrounded by fire. That living is preferable than to live with this nondevotee class. A lot of the devotees had that experience living with their parents before they joined the movement. It was so hellish they had to get out. Then they, some way or other, met . . . *Bhakta*-sane bās , that is the essential part of progressing. (pause) Dayānanda's daughter came, in my lavatory. When you were in? Yes, I was going . . . In? Yes. (break) Generally, this barā are made with paṭola leaves, paṭola leaves mashed and mixed with this dahī . Is that just as healthy as neem leaves? Paṭola leaves? Just the same. It is better. (break) . . . the influence of the moon planet, the vegetation grows. Do they accept, the modern botanists, influence of moon planet? All the farmers, they . . . They do believe? They believe that. They plant certain seeds according to the moon. Just see. *Even in the West they only plant certain things on the waxing moon, not on the waning moon. On śukla*-pakṣa. And moon is vacant. By the influence of moon, other vegetation growing, and it cannot grow itself. They admit that the moon rays have some kind of potency. They know that. No, it is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* . In the Jyotiṣa it has . . . it controls liquids. And I think even in hospitals here, near Pūrṇimā, where some of the times they don't like to do the operations because there will be more . . . the blood will run more. Something, they have some . . . someone had told me. The tides are also going according to the moon. The rivers are running according to the moon. In the Ganges, one time we went, swimming in Calcutta . . . The ebb tide, flow tide, according to the moon. Something like that. One day the Ganges was very peaceful, and then we went again and it was rushing. If you went in you would just be carried away. You could only . . . (break) You can do it here. (referring to massage) You don't want to go outside today? Sunshine is bright. (end) Conversation A -- August 10, 1976, Tehran Many people, when they see the devotees, they are confused, and they think that the devotees are engaged in some kind of ritualistic activity, that the chanting and practices of devotees are ritualistic, and they compare it to their own rituals and they don't see any distinction. So they see it as sectarian. What they want? Some of them are not sincere, so they simply want to find fault. But those who are sincere can be encouraged to . . . *They are all wanting material things. Like in Bhagavad*-gītā , there is the verse, traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ ( BG 2.45). Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna to rise above the scriptures, the flowery words of the Vedas . *Well, they are not concerned with the Bhagavad*-gītā . You cannot quote from Bhagavad-gītā to instruct these rascals. You have to talk with them with common sense. Their charge is . . . what is their charge? That you are engaged in ritualistic ceremonies? Yes. So what they want us to do? If you don't want me to do this, then you must say what you want me to do. Is it not right? Suppose I am chanting. If you don't want me to chant, then what do you want me to do, the next question will be. They want us to engage in sense gratification like they are engaged. That is what they want. Want . . . we want that, if you want me to do like you, then I want you to do like me. If you want me to accept your proposal, why you'll not accept my proposal? Because if I think that sense gratification is better, then I want . . . That's all right. You think sense gratification is better, I think sense gratification is bad. How can we tell the difference? How can we know which is better? No, there is difference. Why you want me to do like you? Then I shall want you to do like me. I say it because I want you to enjoy sense gratification. No, I am not going to accept you. Because you are not accepting my principles, so why shall I accept your principles? But your principle is austere, it's not nice. So that you say. That's what they say. They say, but we say you are bad, that you are enjoying simply sense gratification. They say what is wrong? No, what is wrong to us? It is your judgment that we are wrong. So my judgment you are wrong. Who will decide who is right? Eh? Ātreya Ṛṣi? Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. If you judge me I am wrong, I am judging you are wrong. So if you don't want me to do like this, I also don't want you. Then where is the decision? Actually, these people mentally understand that sense gratification is wrong, but they are so polluted that they are on the . . . No, for argument's sake. . . . mental platform. If you want me to do like you, I also want you to do like me. You cannot find fault with me by saying that I am not acting like you, sense gratification. If you are acting in your way, I am acting in my way. It's relative on that platform. But if you want philosophy, the aim of life, the destination of life, then we can talk, what is the destination of life, what is required. If you criticize me, then I can criticize you also. Then we must take it to the absolute platform in order to actually have a sincere argument, to make a sincere decision. *Yes. There is no end of such things. Therefore unless one accepts a person guru , there is no need of talking. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Unless one accepts somebody as guru , the instruction will not be fruitful. Just like Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa as guru . So long he was talking as friend, it was not effective. Arjuna therefore decided . . . find out that verse, kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ . "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me." This is the position. Unless one feels like that and asks somebody, a superior, accepts him as guru , there is no use talking. It will not be useful. That's what you say in the purport. This is the position. If the injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12), if anyone is interested to know about the transcendental subject matter, he must approach a guru . And unless one approaches a guru , he cannot understand. And if by force I become guru , he may not be interested. This is the position. But still, for a preacher, he has to do something against all odds. That is preaching. You cannot expect favorable position. Your question was that we go and they say like this, but you cannot expect that wherever you are going you'll find favorable situation to talk. That you must understand. But you'll have to preach; you have to create favorable situation. That is your duty. You cannot expect, if they are not prepared to take good instruction. Where is that fan? He's bringing it. *You cannot expect favorable situation. It is not possible. When I came in America, I never expected any favorable situation. I wrote that poetry in disappointment that, "Who will accept this?" That is the position. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, gradually it will become a favorable situation, but don't expect any favorable situation. You have to handle unfavorable situation and make favorable situation to preach. That is preaching. Any business. (to devotee fanning) Just on the head. Just see, there is flies. So Nityānanda Prabhu, He went to preach to Jagāi*-Mādhāi. There was no favorable situation. They were drunkards. They caused injury on the body of Nityānanda Prabhu. So this is preaching with only unfavorable situation. You cannot expect favorable situation. And still you have to preach. That is preaching. They will speak like madman, so many things. They are mad, after all. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). They have no sense. All materialistic persons are madmen. Still, by the order of superior, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we have to do this preaching work. Actually, the American boys are fighting against so many unfavorable situations. They are sometimes beaten in the airport, you know that? Still they are preaching. That is preaching. That is preaching. "The unfavorable situation, so let me give it up," that is not preaching. Yes, we must know that there is unfavorable situation, still I have to do. That depends on your brain, how to tackle. You cannot expect favorable situation. Is it good to publicize these situations, Prabhupāda, that we are encountering so much difficulty? Is it good to publicize that, in a film, say? Film? In a film can we talk about these things that we . . . No, no, you don't talk of film. You are very much in favor of film. You'd better stop that idea. It is very potent, though, for preaching. No? Some of them may be preaching. In documentary. What favorable film will do? We can show our activities; that film may be for our advertisement. Otherwise, in which way by showing film you'll make . . . (indistinct) . . .? There are so many films. They see, they see. Devotees are interested. Devotees are devotees. If you want to preach to the public, what impression they'll have? Some of our documentary film, just like we are feeding the poor, or we are working, making such things, that may be favorable. Say for we're doing something in America, the Indians may appreciate, or we are doing something in India. That's all right. There is little effect, of course, but not very much. But if we make a film to go in the movie houses all over the world, the big movie houses, not just for little schools or little groups, not just for the temple. What kind of film? A film that would show activities of devotees. And have some story . . . But you said they do not like it. No, I never said they do not like it. You said that sense gratification. How they'll appreciate? They will appreciate. It is something new, it is very different, it is very beautiful and attractive. Of course, I cannot understand. But you . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the favorable condition of film? Jñānagamya Prabhu is interested in making a very big film. What is the subject matter? The subject matter is devotees in Kṛṣṇa consciousness: how they learn, how they study, how they go on saṅkīrtana . They are seeing already. They are seeing in real life, but so many people, they do not know of devotees, and films would go to every little town and village. And there would be chanting in the film, and there would be interest in what the devotees are doing. But their opinion is not in favor, as you said. (laughs) But the film can change the opinion. Many times . . . That is . . . how they can change? Great books have done this. Uncle Tom's Cabin started a whole war against slavery in the United States. Books and films are very potent. They can make public opinion. Books are different thing. We are publishing. In America the Negro situation was very bad, and they made many films showing heroic Negroes, and now the situation is much better. The people are not so much agitated by seeing Negroes. They think, "Oh, now a Negro has some good qualities." Because of these films they have come to appreciate. So like that, if a devotee is a hero they will also appreciate. You judge. I don't appreciate. I don't think the Negro question is solved. No, it's not, but it is making steps to that end. The whites, they do not like the Negroes still. Wherever there are Negroes, in that quarter the whites do not go in. Is it not? They do not go. Although they have been given equal right, but at heart the whites, they do not like it. Is there any improvement? I don't think. So officially, "Yes, yes, you are good, I am good." Because people are still on the bodily conception of life, so they are threatened. Yes. That is the real disease. So long one is situated in the bodily concept of life, he is animal. First of all, you have to educate them. That is the difficulty. But we are not Negroes. We are actually devotees, and we are very attractive, and we have all good qualities. And people do not have to be afraid to come into our section of town; we will not kill them. That is why they are afraid of the Negroes. So we actually have good things to offer. That is by your behavior, not by showing the film. One of the points, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you're making, if I understand correctly, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is like gold, like diamond. If someone is sincere, they will come. When they are selling cigarettes or Negroes or cars, they make films. But with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have the books, which are paramparā . And we have ourselves as example. If we can be paramparā and we can be good example . . . That is my opinion, that instead of spending so much money for films, if you spend some money for propagation of book distribution . . . any advertisement is good, it never goes in vain, but the film advertisement is very expensive. Very, very expensive. Jaya . It is very true. Very expensive and very much endeavor. Advertisement never goes in vain, that's a fact. But if it is too much expensive, it touches our financial position. And then there's no certainty that it will be a success anyway. There is a method. There is a method . . . *Suppose there is little success, but in comparison to the money expended, that success is little. Just like I, in the beginning, I advertised my books in the Times of New York Times. They charged me sixty*-three dollars, a small space. So there was inquiry, not order. Three inquiries, not even order. I have got this experience. For me, at that time, sixty-three dollars were too much. So I did not get any response. That is my practical experience. I got three inquiries, not even order. But the Times, New York Times , they have got millions of customers and millions of readers, but I got three inquiries only. To find those few potential devotees that are in . . . let us assume, in New York, big city, there were a few potential devotees, and materially speaking, it may be very difficult to find them. But when the devotee is sincere, Kṛṣṇa will give opportunity that those people will be found, even if they are one in that big city. Kṛṣṇa will arrange that they will find a pure devotee if they are sincere. So no material advertising will accomplish the task. Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that it is only for the fortunate persons. But we must present. Only the fortunate will come forward. We cannot expect that everyone will come. That is not possible. But you said to make everyone fortunate. *Yes, that is by your preaching. That we have to do. We are doing that. That I have given the example, Nityānanda Prabhu. He faced rebellion, and by His power converted the Jagāi*-Mādhāi, by chanting. They injured, Jagāi-Mādhāi injured, and Nityānanda Prabhu said: "Never mind you have injured Me, please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not advertisement, that is personal behavior. In Dallas where I was there's a town next door, there are many rich Baptists, Fort Worth. They have big studio for producing many different films, television shows about Christian . . . These Christian people, they have got money, and still the churches are being closed. What is the effect? They have no potency to their message. It's not the medium, it's their message. Whatever it may be, by their advertisement, the effect is the churches are being closed. Eh? Is it not? That is correct. But there is also a movement in America, in Christianity, but they do not want to go to church. They want to be Christians, but not go to church. That means it has no effect. (pause) Now talk about something substantial. Yesterday we were talking about the proprietorship of God. So if people are interested to talk like gentlemen, how they can refute the proprietorship of God of everything? Talk on this point. They say God has given us everything for our pleasure, that God is not worried about whether He owns it or not, He simply wants to give to us. That is your idea. But if I am proprietor of something, I must keep my right. It is not that . . . suppose I am proprietor of this house, and there is a nice garden. I allow my friends and relatives or family to use it. But when they misuse it, shall I remain silent? If I am proprietor, when things are being misused, shall I remain silent? When you misuse it and if I chastise you, how you can say that, "You have given to us. Whatever we like we can do. Why you are protesting?" Can they say like that? No. You say that God has given us, so therefore we can do. There is no need of God. That is your argument, is it not? What that argument? God has given all these things. God has given us all these things, but does it mean that if you misuse it and God will see only silently? Does it mean that? No. Then how you can say that you can do it as you like? God has given us? They don't understand how God chastises when they misuse. They don't understand karma . That means shameless. They are being chastised at every step, and they don't think it is chastisement. They are shameless fools. And also they blame God. They say God is injust. Then they say God is injust. And when they are chastised, then God is injust. This is their position. You cannot deny the proprietorship of God. That is not possible. If you misuse it, then you'll be chastised. You'll be chastised. Even in that park, the park is owned by the government. You cannot pluck any flower without the permission. You can use it. You can go there and sit there, enjoy it, but if it is prohibited that nobody can pluck flower, if you do it, then it is criminal. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God, so you can utilize it, God's favor, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā , according to His instruction. Suppose there are many persons coming in the park. You cannot prohibit anyone to come into the park. As you have entered, "Yes." But you have made laws like that. What is this immigration? Artificial prohibition. Everything is God's property. Anyone can go anywhere. Why you have made this immigration department, "Don't come here"? They say it is to protect the people who are here. Then why you came here? The Americans, why they went to America and killed the Indians? And now they have become proprietor, "Don't come here." They allow some, and then they differentiate, they try to see who is going to be a . . . That means you are violating the laws of God. Every place is God's place, so you're all God's sons. You can go anywhere. Unless I do something, harm you, you cannot check me. In the airport, everyone is checked. That means everyone is dishonest. Nowadays everyone is checked. So in the airport, the passengers are . . . at least it is to be supposed they are paying so much, the airport authorities accept you as you are dishonest, checking, be checked. This is the effect of your education: everyone is dishonest. (lamb bleating in background) Why the lamb is crying? Eh? The lamb? Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they have lamb. So they do not give the lamb to eat something? They . . . I don't know. Maybe they took the mother away or something. No, I hear this sound always somewhere. No, they keep the lambs for killing, eh? But before killing, do they not supply any food? They're very cruel. They starve? They don't have any human qualification. Human qualification there is not, otherwise how they are killing? Killing means they have no human qualification. Animal qualification. "I want you to eat," huh? You know that Aesop's Fable story? Which story? There was a lake. So one small lamb was drinking water on the other side, and this side another tiger. So the tiger challenged that, "Why you are muddying the water." So he said, "Sir, I am here, long away. I am not muddying." So anyway, he picked up some quarrel and killed him. So the idea was to kill him, but he picked up some . . . find out some fault. So anyone finding out. This man who wants to kill somebody else, he's not man, he's animal. "Give the dog a bad name and hang it." That English proverb? You try to discuss on this point, how people can refuse the proprietorship of God. That is a very good point for preaching. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Everything belongs to God. That's a fact. (pause) (to Hari-śauri) Sleeping? Meditating? Either sleeping or meditating, what is the real fact? Meditating or sleeping? I'm not feeling sleepy, anyway. Meditating. Hari-śauri Prabhu works very hard, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He's a very first class servant. Yes. ( japa ) Prabhupāda, they say that the problem is that, the problem of the world is that humanity should be one, everyone should think of things as belonging to humanity, and that religion and different governments have made humanity sectarian and divided up, and people think in terms of . . . No, no. We are not such kind of religionist. We say that everything belongs to God and everyone is son of God. We don't say like that. But they say: "We don't believe in God, we believe in humanity." What is the difference? The difference is that humanity is tangible, it's something we can understand, but God we cannot understand. So we are also tangible, but we are more advanced. How you can . . . wherefrom the humanity came, the next question will be. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Wherefrom the human being came? Hmm? (about fanning) Do little. Just a little? Yes, not little; so that the flies may not come. Stronger, stronger. But they say we don't care about where humanity came, it's just that we are here and we have to deal practically with this worldly situation. What you are doing practically? You are fighting only. Every ten years after you are fighting. What you have done? The fighting, they say, comes because humanity is divided into sectarian groups. That is your . . . you have done it. You are also one of the members of the . . . how you can check it? It is your fault. They want brotherhood amongst men. There is no way . . . But without father. Brotherhood without father. That's right. Impractical. How it is possible? You don't accept father, where is the question of brotherhood? If there is father, and we are sons, we are brothers. If there is no father, then where is the question of brotherhood? Even the Communists are fighting amongst themselves. Yes. Unless you accept the father, where is the question of brother? Artificial brotherhood. Just look at the United Nations, how they are brothers. You think they're united? No, they . . . They are all dogs barking, that's all. I said in the public. Some dogs are brought together, and they are barking. That's all. Where is the unity? That is the fact. If you bring some dogs of this quarter and ask them, "Please live peacefully," will they do that? Why they cannot do it? You bring some dogs, neighborhood, and ask them, "Don't bark. Live together peacefully." Will they be able to do that? What do you think? No, it is their nature. *So if you keep them dog there cannot be any peace. You make them human being actually, then there will be peace. So they are keeping them as dogs. So they will go on barking. That's all. All these members of the United Nations, everyone is thinking in the bodily concept, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Chinese." So how there will be unity? There cannot be. That is we are proposing, that don't think in the bodily concept of life. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati (BG 18.54): that we are teaching. But they are thinking they have gone to the United Nation, but they are keeping themselves as dogs. There cannot be any peace. They must go on barking against one another. That's all. *They are thinking that they have to protect their so*-called interest. So the dog is also thinking. From three miles he begins to bark, "Why you are coming here? Don't come. I am protecting my interest." That mentality is there in the dog; so how you are greater than the dog? But the devotee, he is thinking that the proprietor is protecting his interest. Anyway, that kind of interest is felt by the dog. It is not very astonishing thing. In that mentality you cannot bring in unity. That is not possible. But they accept that there is some good quality in humanity. They say that that is inherent in humanity, that we need to worship . . . Yes, that good quality is God consciousness. So unless humanity comes to the position of God consciousness, unless he thinks that everything belongs to God, there is no question of humanity. That is "doganity," doggish mentality. Humanity means that he understands that "Everything belongs to God. I am servant of God." That is humanity. Otherwise, there is no question of humanity. If you think like dog, where is humanity? They think that everything belongs to humanity as a group. But that is not practical. Everything belonging to the humanity, then why you are making divisions of nations? That's what they say, that that is the problem, the divisions of nations. *And the problem will continue, because you are taking account a section of living entity. You, because you have no idea of dog and other animals, what they are, they are also sons of God. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ . Unless you come to this understanding, there is no question of humanity. This is the humanity understanding. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ . *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." *That's all. You are trying to unify the so*-called human beings, but you are keeping the poor animals for cutting their throat. This is your humanity. Because these poor animals cannot protest, so you are strong. And this is your humanity—you cut their throat and eat. But that is not humanity. Humanity is here mentioned: God is the seed-giving father all living entities. That is the fact. That is humanity. They do not know what is meaning by humanity. Here is the explanation, humanity. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Unless you come to that stage, there is no question of humanity. Artificially, you manufacture something and you think humanity. According to your convenience, "Let us combine together and exploit other living entities for our benefit." That is not humanity. They do not know what is humanity. Here is the explanation. How humanity can be established unless there is the understanding of the supreme father, how there is question of . . . how this question of brotherhood can come in? Here Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the seed-giving father." So you try to understand this, then humanity. You cannot manufacture some ideas of humanity, imperfect, because you are imperfect. Here is perfect idea. So how can we be convinced that this is perfect or that it's practical? Because both ideas seem to us to be theoretical. This idea of humanity as . . . *Theoretical? How it is theoretical? It is practical. You have no intelligence. Your . . . you say this is also theoretical. Did you not say? I say it is practical. It is practical. From that verse, if you have got brain, you study, you'll see that it is practical if you are intelligent. But if you are dull, then you'll not understand. How it is practical? Here Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the seed-giving father." So do you think it is theoretical? Do you think? No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I don't . . . No, no, for argument's sake. Yes. *Unless there is a seed*-giving father, how it is possible of a child simply by the mother? Is there any practical example? If one girl has given birth to a child, do you think the child is born without father? Eh? Is it possible? No. *Therefore when Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the seed*-giving father," what is the wrong there? No living entity can take birth without being seed-given by the father. Everywhere you see that without seed-giving father how a child can take birth? But how can we accept that situation? Perhaps the creation is a special circumstance? No, no. No special. "Perhaps," this is impractical. Why do you say "perhaps"? That is nonsense. As soon as you say "perhaps," then you are rascal. You'll have to show a practical example. *Yes, when you talking of practical things and you bring argument, "perhaps," then you are rascal, immediately. Give practical example, no "perhaps," "maybe." No. That argument will not do. These rascals are giving that argument, "perhaps," "maybe." That is not argument. Be practical when you talk of practical things. Practically you do not see that without father there is any child born. No. Either in the animals or in the human beings or in the birds—everywhere, seed*-giving father is there. Freud's idea . . . Freud admitted that, that we are all like children, but his philosophy was that the children have to grow up and go out and look after themselves. They can't remain dependent on the father forever, so they have to grow up and face the world. That is another rascal. Because everyone, every living entity is dependent on the father's arrangement. God is the supreme father. He was a Christian or not, Freud? I don't know what he was. What he was? He was mainly Freudian. He believed in himself. He had his own philosophy. He was Christian, yes . . . Christian. So why the Christian go and . . . go to the father, "Give us our daily bread"? That means that you are dependent on father. How you can say independent? But that's the point, that we have to grow up and become dependent on our own work. No. The Vedic injunction is eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God means He's supplying the necessities of all His sons. That is God. And that is practical. You are dependent. The animals, they are dependent on grass. So wherefrom the grass is coming? Why that land is deserted and this land is green place? Can you change it? Why you don't change the desert to be green? So if you think that, "I'm living on animal. I don't care for grass," but the animal depending on grass, and the grass is depending on God's mercy. So how you can say you are not dependent on God? You are dependent. But because you are a rascal fraud, you want to cheat and become a Freud, that's all. You are a great fraud, therefore you're talking like that. You are dependent on God in every step. You cannot be independent. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra . Find out this verse. That is fraud. He's thinking independently. He's not independent. "The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities which are in actuality carried out by nature." *So how we are independent? Did Mr. Freud not die? When prakṛti , nature, kicked on his face, he immediately died. So how he's independent? These rascals have created all troubles. The so*-called rascal philosophers, scientists, politicians, they have created all troubles. He's completely dependent on nature, on the laws of nature, and still he says: "I am independent. I have grown up." What you have grown up? You have grown up as a great fool, that's all. You have not grown up to be intelligent. You have grown up a great rascal, that's all. So refute them in this way, then you'll be preacher. So what is your argument about humanity? Well, if God is, as you say . . . God is the father. If God is meant to be propitiated, then why is it that we have so many things for our enjoyment? You say that everything is for God's enjoyment. *Yes, God has given you enjoyment, but you cannot enjoy yourself, alone. There are other sons, they will also enjoy. If you interfere with other sons, then you'll be punished. God's son is the lamb, and you let him enjoy, you also enjoy. But if you interfere with his right, then you'll be punished. That is God's law. Sarva*-yoniṣu , God is not only your father, he's father of the lamb also. So if by your brute force you want to kill the poor lamb, then you'll be punished. This is natural. You have got your food; you produce your foodgrain and you eat. Why should you eat another animal? God says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), you must eat to become strong. But that does not mean you'll eat another brother. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1): whatever He has designated, you eat like that. You are human being, you can produce food. You grow foodstuffs, rice, wheat, fruit, flowers, vegetables. That is allowed. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . You produce anna; why should you kill an animal? And offer it to Kṛṣṇa, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). He never says that, "You give Me an animal." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam . So you produce patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam , and offer to Kṛṣṇa, and then take. In our experience we have no understanding how this can be practical, because we think that meat is good for our strength. How can we be strong? No. Therefore you are not human being; you are animal. If you cannot produce your food . . . uncivilized animals, they cannot produce their food. But you are given the chance of becoming human being. If you cannot produce your food, if you do not know how to cook food, how to offer it, then you are not human being; you are animal. When the uncivilized man in the jungle, they did not know how to produce food, they used to kill animals. So if you want to remain in the same uncivilized status of life, then where you are human being? You have got greater intelligence. You produce your food. Why should you kill animal like the uncivilized jungle men? Your action is just like jungle man, and you are claiming to be civilized man. Because they are thinking that they are the proprietor. That is their folly. They are not proprietor. They are not proprietor. That is already discussed. Proprietor is the Supreme Lord; you are not proprietor. That is another point. Falsely you are claiming proprietor. How you are proprietor? Everyone can claim proprietor, and that is going on. Everyone is claiming proprietor and they are fighting. That is going on. And if you accept God is proprietor and we are dependent on Him, then there is no fight. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā . This īśa, Īśopanisad verse is perfectly describing, tena tyaktena : you are not proprietor. You accept things what the proprietor has given you, allotted for you. You are not proprietor. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā . Do not encroach upon others. Then how you become proprietor? We are falsely claiming proprietorship; we are encroaching upon others' independence. This is our business. How there can be peace? It is not possible. This property is walled, that property is walled. You cannot encroach on the other side of the wall. Then it is criminal, trespassing. The government's duty is to see that nobody's encroaching on others. Similarly, God's duty is that, that everyone is God's son, you don't encroach upon other son's right, then you'll be punished. You have got right to live and the lamb has got right to live. Why should you encroach upon his living right? Because you are strong? That is not humanity. The animal is there for benefit. Let him live, and you take the fur. You can use it for your coat. But why should you kill it? The cow is giving milk like mother, why should you kill it? This is humanity, to kill the mother? So in this way we are encroaching the rights of others, and we are becoming subject to be punished by God. This is going on. You may say there is no God, but God is there; you'll be punished. The outlaws, they will say: "We don't care for government." You may say so, but government will take action. You cannot avoid it. This is humanity. Good citizenship means one who knows the laws of the state. That is good citizen. If one does not know the laws of the state, he's a fool; he's not a good citizen. One who knows the law, he keeps right and left, he knows this is the order of the government, cars should be driven on the right side or left side, he is good citizen. One who does not know the law of the state, he's not a good citizen. He's a fool, rascal, what to speak of humanity. Some people say . . . so we will even say, "I don't care for your rational arguments." Some people say, "I don't care for your . . ." Then you are animal, because animal has no rationality. Then you are animal. Better not to talk with you. What is the use of talking with you? You are animal. You have no rationality. Man is rational animal, this is the definition. You have no rationality, therefore you are animal. What is the use of talking with you? Waste time. If you have no rationality, then you are animal. That is the difficulty. People are kept in the status of animal, and they are expected human behavior. How it is possible? It is not possible. So therefore our endeavor is to bring them to the standard of humanity, real humanity. Then there will be peace, prosperity, everything all right. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You don't care for rationality, that means you are animal. Man is rational animal. That is the definition. If you have no rationality . . . dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ . . . this is Vedic injunction. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samāna (Hitopadeśa). Anyone who has no religious principle, he's animal. Therefore you'll find in human society, it doesn't matter whether it is Iran or India or Europe, there is some religion. Because without religion they are animals. Animal has no religion. The animal is . . . dog is dog. It is not a Christian dog or a Hindu dog. Hindu, Christian comes when they are human being. So a civilized society must have the rationality, religion. Religion is rationality, to accept God. What is religion? Religion means to accept God. They say that, "You may have so many wonderful philosophies, but our desire is just to enjoy life." That means animal. That means animal. Animal has no philosophy. Also they say that religions are the causes of war. In Lebanon now the Christians are killing the Muslims and the Muslims are killing the Christians, in the name of . . . And the Communists are killing capitalists and capitalists are killing Communists. What is that? Is that religion? Then? So how you can stop war? Because you are animal, you fight, you can give some name, either on religious ground or this philosophical ground. But because you are animal you will fight. You can give a different name. That is different thing. But because you are dogs, you'll fight. The real religion is why they will fight? Religion means to accept God. So if you are Muslim, I am Hindu, if I accept God, if you accept God, then where is fight? If we accept that God is the proprietor, God is the father, then where is the question of fight? Because we are not religious, therefore fight. Otherwise, if you accept God is the supreme father, if I accept God is the supreme, why fight? (pause) So we have to go down? Everything you say, Prabhupāda, makes sense. Everything you say makes sense. *Yes. Our preaching should be sensible, then people will accept. After all, they are human being. There is sense, but by force they are covering the sense. So we have to awaken them by handling carefully, that's all. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo gauracānda bole. Who are . . . uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpya varan nibodhata (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.3.14). They are sleeping. We have awaken them, that's it. That is preaching. Even the animal*-killing, where it is absolutely necessary . . . so according to any religious principle, there is God. Just like who was telling me? You were telling me about the lamb killing? The injunction is that the mouth should be toward Mecca. Is it like that? Yes, Prabhupāda. So because there is no other way . . . suppose in the desert, what they'll do? They must eat something. But still there is sense of God, there is some regulative principle. There is also principle of sacrifice with very strict regulations. So in this way God consciousness must be there. That is civilization. You want to go down, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Hmm. Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Conversation A -- August 10, 1976, Tehran Many people, when they see the devotees, they are confused, and they think that the devotees are engaged in some kind of ritualistic activity, that the chanting and practices of devotees are ritualistic, and they compare it to their own rituals and they don't see any distinction. So they see it as sectarian. What they want? Some of them are not sincere, so they simply want to find fault. But those who are sincere can be encouraged to . . . *They are all wanting material things. Like in Bhagavad*-gītā , there is the verse, traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ ( BG 2.45). Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna to rise above the scriptures, the flowery words of the Vedas . *Well, they are not concerned with the Bhagavad*-gītā . You cannot quote from Bhagavad-gītā to instruct these rascals. You have to talk with them with common sense. Their charge is . . . what is their charge? That you are engaged in ritualistic ceremonies? Yes. So what they want us to do? If you don't want me to do this, then you must say what you want me to do. Is it not right? Suppose I am chanting. If you don't want me to chant, then what do you want me to do, the next question will be. They want us to engage in sense gratification like they are engaged. That is what they want. Want . . . we want that, if you want me to do like you, then I want you to do like me. If you want me to accept your proposal, why you'll not accept my proposal? Because if I think that sense gratification is better, then I want . . . That's all right. You think sense gratification is better, I think sense gratification is bad. How can we tell the difference? How can we know which is better? No, there is difference. Why you want me to do like you? Then I shall want you to do like me. I say it because I want you to enjoy sense gratification. No, I am not going to accept you. Because you are not accepting my principles, so why shall I accept your principles? But your principle is austere, it's not nice. So that you say. That's what they say. They say, but we say you are bad, that you are enjoying simply sense gratification. They say what is wrong? No, what is wrong to us? It is your judgment that we are wrong. So my judgment you are wrong. Who will decide who is right? Eh? Ātreya Ṛṣi? Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. If you judge me I am wrong, I am judging you are wrong. So if you don't want me to do like this, I also don't want you. Then where is the decision? Actually, these people mentally understand that sense gratification is wrong, but they are so polluted that they are on the . . . No, for argument's sake. . . . mental platform. If you want me to do like you, I also want you to do like me. You cannot find fault with me by saying that I am not acting like you, sense gratification. If you are acting in your way, I am acting in my way. It's relative on that platform. But if you want philosophy, the aim of life, the destination of life, then we can talk, what is the destination of life, what is required. If you criticize me, then I can criticize you also. Then we must take it to the absolute platform in order to actually have a sincere argument, to make a sincere decision. *Yes. There is no end of such things. Therefore unless one accepts a person guru , there is no need of talking. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Unless one accepts somebody as guru , the instruction will not be fruitful. Just like Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa as guru . So long he was talking as friend, it was not effective. Arjuna therefore decided . . . find out that verse, kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ . "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me." This is the position. Unless one feels like that and asks somebody, a superior, accepts him as guru , there is no use talking. It will not be useful. That's what you say in the purport. This is the position. If the injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12), if anyone is interested to know about the transcendental subject matter, he must approach a guru . And unless one approaches a guru , he cannot understand. And if by force I become guru , he may not be interested. This is the position. But still, for a preacher, he has to do something against all odds. That is preaching. You cannot expect favorable position. Your question was that we go and they say like this, but you cannot expect that wherever you are going you'll find favorable situation to talk. That you must understand. But you'll have to preach; you have to create favorable situation. That is your duty. You cannot expect, if they are not prepared to take good instruction. Where is that fan? He's bringing it. *You cannot expect favorable situation. It is not possible. When I came in America, I never expected any favorable situation. I wrote that poetry in disappointment that, "Who will accept this?" That is the position. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, gradually it will become a favorable situation, but don't expect any favorable situation. You have to handle unfavorable situation and make favorable situation to preach. That is preaching. Any business. (to devotee fanning) Just on the head. Just see, there is flies. So Nityānanda Prabhu, He went to preach to Jagāi*-Mādhāi. There was no favorable situation. They were drunkards. They caused injury on the body of Nityānanda Prabhu. So this is preaching with only unfavorable situation. You cannot expect favorable situation. And still you have to preach. That is preaching. They will speak like madman, so many things. They are mad, after all. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). They have no sense. All materialistic persons are madmen. Still, by the order of superior, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we have to do this preaching work. Actually, the American boys are fighting against so many unfavorable situations. They are sometimes beaten in the airport, you know that? Still they are preaching. That is preaching. That is preaching. "The unfavorable situation, so let me give it up," that is not preaching. Yes, we must know that there is unfavorable situation, still I have to do. That depends on your brain, how to tackle. You cannot expect favorable situation. Is it good to publicize these situations, Prabhupāda, that we are encountering so much difficulty? Is it good to publicize that, in a film, say? Film? In a film can we talk about these things that we . . . No, no, you don't talk of film. You are very much in favor of film. You'd better stop that idea. It is very potent, though, for preaching. No? Some of them may be preaching. In documentary. What favorable film will do? We can show our activities; that film may be for our advertisement. Otherwise, in which way by showing film you'll make . . . (indistinct) . . .? There are so many films. They see, they see. Devotees are interested. Devotees are devotees. If you want to preach to the public, what impression they'll have? Some of our documentary film, just like we are feeding the poor, or we are working, making such things, that may be favorable. Say for we're doing something in America, the Indians may appreciate, or we are doing something in India. That's all right. There is little effect, of course, but not very much. But if we make a film to go in the movie houses all over the world, the big movie houses, not just for little schools or little groups, not just for the temple. What kind of film? A film that would show activities of devotees. And have some story . . . But you said they do not like it. No, I never said they do not like it. You said that sense gratification. How they'll appreciate? They will appreciate. It is something new, it is very different, it is very beautiful and attractive. Of course, I cannot understand. But you . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the favorable condition of film? Jñānagamya Prabhu is interested in making a very big film. What is the subject matter? The subject matter is devotees in Kṛṣṇa consciousness: how they learn, how they study, how they go on saṅkīrtana . They are seeing already. They are seeing in real life, but so many people, they do not know of devotees, and films would go to every little town and village. And there would be chanting in the film, and there would be interest in what the devotees are doing. But their opinion is not in favor, as you said. (laughs) But the film can change the opinion. Many times . . . That is . . . how they can change? Great books have done this. Uncle Tom's Cabin started a whole war against slavery in the United States. Books and films are very potent. They can make public opinion. Books are different thing. We are publishing. In America the Negro situation was very bad, and they made many films showing heroic Negroes, and now the situation is much better. The people are not so much agitated by seeing Negroes. They think, "Oh, now a Negro has some good qualities." Because of these films they have come to appreciate. So like that, if a devotee is a hero they will also appreciate. You judge. I don't appreciate. I don't think the Negro question is solved. No, it's not, but it is making steps to that end. The whites, they do not like the Negroes still. Wherever there are Negroes, in that quarter the whites do not go in. Is it not? They do not go. Although they have been given equal right, but at heart the whites, they do not like it. Is there any improvement? I don't think. So officially, "Yes, yes, you are good, I am good." Because people are still on the bodily conception of life, so they are threatened. Yes. That is the real disease. So long one is situated in the bodily concept of life, he is animal. First of all, you have to educate them. That is the difficulty. But we are not Negroes. We are actually devotees, and we are very attractive, and we have all good qualities. And people do not have to be afraid to come into our section of town; we will not kill them. That is why they are afraid of the Negroes. So we actually have good things to offer. That is by your behavior, not by showing the film. One of the points, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you're making, if I understand correctly, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is like gold, like diamond. If someone is sincere, they will come. When they are selling cigarettes or Negroes or cars, they make films. But with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have the books, which are paramparā . And we have ourselves as example. If we can be paramparā and we can be good example . . . That is my opinion, that instead of spending so much money for films, if you spend some money for propagation of book distribution . . . any advertisement is good, it never goes in vain, but the film advertisement is very expensive. Very, very expensive. Jaya . It is very true. Very expensive and very much endeavor. Advertisement never goes in vain, that's a fact. But if it is too much expensive, it touches our financial position. And then there's no certainty that it will be a success anyway. There is a method. There is a method . . . *Suppose there is little success, but in comparison to the money expended, that success is little. Just like I, in the beginning, I advertised my books in the Times of New York Times. They charged me sixty*-three dollars, a small space. So there was inquiry, not order. Three inquiries, not even order. I have got this experience. For me, at that time, sixty-three dollars were too much. So I did not get any response. That is my practical experience. I got three inquiries, not even order. But the Times, New York Times , they have got millions of customers and millions of readers, but I got three inquiries only. To find those few potential devotees that are in . . . let us assume, in New York, big city, there were a few potential devotees, and materially speaking, it may be very difficult to find them. But when the devotee is sincere, Kṛṣṇa will give opportunity that those people will be found, even if they are one in that big city. Kṛṣṇa will arrange that they will find a pure devotee if they are sincere. So no material advertising will accomplish the task. Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that it is only for the fortunate persons. But we must present. Only the fortunate will come forward. We cannot expect that everyone will come. That is not possible. But you said to make everyone fortunate. *Yes, that is by your preaching. That we have to do. We are doing that. That I have given the example, Nityānanda Prabhu. He faced rebellion, and by His power converted the Jagāi*-Mādhāi, by chanting. They injured, Jagāi-Mādhāi injured, and Nityānanda Prabhu said: "Never mind you have injured Me, please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not advertisement, that is personal behavior. In Dallas where I was there's a town next door, there are many rich Baptists, Fort Worth. They have big studio for producing many different films, television shows about Christian . . . These Christian people, they have got money, and still the churches are being closed. What is the effect? They have no potency to their message. It's not the medium, it's their message. Whatever it may be, by their advertisement, the effect is the churches are being closed. Eh? Is it not? That is correct. But there is also a movement in America, in Christianity, but they do not want to go to church. They want to be Christians, but not go to church. That means it has no effect. (pause) Now talk about something substantial. Yesterday we were talking about the proprietorship of God. So if people are interested to talk like gentlemen, how they can refute the proprietorship of God of everything? Talk on this point. They say God has given us everything for our pleasure, that God is not worried about whether He owns it or not, He simply wants to give to us. That is your idea. But if I am proprietor of something, I must keep my right. It is not that . . . suppose I am proprietor of this house, and there is a nice garden. I allow my friends and relatives or family to use it. But when they misuse it, shall I remain silent? If I am proprietor, when things are being misused, shall I remain silent? When you misuse it and if I chastise you, how you can say that, "You have given to us. Whatever we like we can do. Why you are protesting?" Can they say like that? No. You say that God has given us, so therefore we can do. There is no need of God. That is your argument, is it not? What that argument? God has given all these things. God has given us all these things, but does it mean that if you misuse it and God will see only silently? Does it mean that? No. Then how you can say that you can do it as you like? God has given us? They don't understand how God chastises when they misuse. They don't understand karma . That means shameless. They are being chastised at every step, and they don't think it is chastisement. They are shameless fools. And also they blame God. They say God is injust. Then they say God is injust. And when they are chastised, then God is injust. This is their position. You cannot deny the proprietorship of God. That is not possible. If you misuse it, then you'll be chastised. You'll be chastised. Even in that park, the park is owned by the government. You cannot pluck any flower without the permission. You can use it. You can go there and sit there, enjoy it, but if it is prohibited that nobody can pluck flower, if you do it, then it is criminal. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God, so you can utilize it, God's favor, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā , according to His instruction. Suppose there are many persons coming in the park. You cannot prohibit anyone to come into the park. As you have entered, "Yes." But you have made laws like that. What is this immigration? Artificial prohibition. Everything is God's property. Anyone can go anywhere. Why you have made this immigration department, "Don't come here"? They say it is to protect the people who are here. Then why you came here? The Americans, why they went to America and killed the Indians? And now they have become proprietor, "Don't come here." They allow some, and then they differentiate, they try to see who is going to be a . . . That means you are violating the laws of God. Every place is God's place, so you're all God's sons. You can go anywhere. Unless I do something, harm you, you cannot check me. In the airport, everyone is checked. That means everyone is dishonest. Nowadays everyone is checked. So in the airport, the passengers are . . . at least it is to be supposed they are paying so much, the airport authorities accept you as you are dishonest, checking, be checked. This is the effect of your education: everyone is dishonest. (lamb bleating in background) Why the lamb is crying? Eh? The lamb? Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they have lamb. So they do not give the lamb to eat something? They . . . I don't know. Maybe they took the mother away or something. No, I hear this sound always somewhere. No, they keep the lambs for killing, eh? But before killing, do they not supply any food? They're very cruel. They starve? They don't have any human qualification. Human qualification there is not, otherwise how they are killing? Killing means they have no human qualification. Animal qualification. "I want you to eat," huh? You know that Aesop's Fable story? Which story? There was a lake. So one small lamb was drinking water on the other side, and this side another tiger. So the tiger challenged that, "Why you are muddying the water." So he said, "Sir, I am here, long away. I am not muddying." So anyway, he picked up some quarrel and killed him. So the idea was to kill him, but he picked up some . . . find out some fault. So anyone finding out. This man who wants to kill somebody else, he's not man, he's animal. "Give the dog a bad name and hang it." That English proverb? You try to discuss on this point, how people can refuse the proprietorship of God. That is a very good point for preaching. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Everything belongs to God. That's a fact. (pause) (to Hari-śauri) Sleeping? Meditating? Either sleeping or meditating, what is the real fact? Meditating or sleeping? I'm not feeling sleepy, anyway. Meditating. Hari-śauri Prabhu works very hard, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He's a very first class servant. Yes. ( japa ) Prabhupāda, they say that the problem is that, the problem of the world is that humanity should be one, everyone should think of things as belonging to humanity, and that religion and different governments have made humanity sectarian and divided up, and people think in terms of . . . No, no. We are not such kind of religionist. We say that everything belongs to God and everyone is son of God. We don't say like that. But they say: "We don't believe in God, we believe in humanity." What is the difference? The difference is that humanity is tangible, it's something we can understand, but God we cannot understand. So we are also tangible, but we are more advanced. How you can . . . wherefrom the humanity came, the next question will be. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Wherefrom the human being came? Hmm? (about fanning) Do little. Just a little? Yes, not little; so that the flies may not come. Stronger, stronger. But they say we don't care about where humanity came, it's just that we are here and we have to deal practically with this worldly situation. What you are doing practically? You are fighting only. Every ten years after you are fighting. What you have done? The fighting, they say, comes because humanity is divided into sectarian groups. That is your . . . you have done it. You are also one of the members of the . . . how you can check it? It is your fault. They want brotherhood amongst men. There is no way . . . But without father. Brotherhood without father. That's right. Impractical. How it is possible? You don't accept father, where is the question of brotherhood? If there is father, and we are sons, we are brothers. If there is no father, then where is the question of brotherhood? Even the Communists are fighting amongst themselves. Yes. Unless you accept the father, where is the question of brother? Artificial brotherhood. Just look at the United Nations, how they are brothers. You think they're united? No, they . . . They are all dogs barking, that's all. I said in the public. Some dogs are brought together, and they are barking. That's all. Where is the unity? That is the fact. If you bring some dogs of this quarter and ask them, "Please live peacefully," will they do that? Why they cannot do it? You bring some dogs, neighborhood, and ask them, "Don't bark. Live together peacefully." Will they be able to do that? What do you think? No, it is their nature. *So if you keep them dog there cannot be any peace. You make them human being actually, then there will be peace. So they are keeping them as dogs. So they will go on barking. That's all. All these members of the United Nations, everyone is thinking in the bodily concept, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Chinese." So how there will be unity? There cannot be. That is we are proposing, that don't think in the bodily concept of life. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati (BG 18.54): that we are teaching. But they are thinking they have gone to the United Nation, but they are keeping themselves as dogs. There cannot be any peace. They must go on barking against one another. That's all. *They are thinking that they have to protect their so*-called interest. So the dog is also thinking. From three miles he begins to bark, "Why you are coming here? Don't come. I am protecting my interest." That mentality is there in the dog; so how you are greater than the dog? But the devotee, he is thinking that the proprietor is protecting his interest. Anyway, that kind of interest is felt by the dog. It is not very astonishing thing. In that mentality you cannot bring in unity. That is not possible. But they accept that there is some good quality in humanity. They say that that is inherent in humanity, that we need to worship . . . Yes, that good quality is God consciousness. So unless humanity comes to the position of God consciousness, unless he thinks that everything belongs to God, there is no question of humanity. That is "doganity," doggish mentality. Humanity means that he understands that "Everything belongs to God. I am servant of God." That is humanity. Otherwise, there is no question of humanity. If you think like dog, where is humanity? They think that everything belongs to humanity as a group. But that is not practical. Everything belonging to the humanity, then why you are making divisions of nations? That's what they say, that that is the problem, the divisions of nations. *And the problem will continue, because you are taking account a section of living entity. You, because you have no idea of dog and other animals, what they are, they are also sons of God. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ . Unless you come to this understanding, there is no question of humanity. This is the humanity understanding. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ . *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." *That's all. You are trying to unify the so*-called human beings, but you are keeping the poor animals for cutting their throat. This is your humanity. Because these poor animals cannot protest, so you are strong. And this is your humanity—you cut their throat and eat. But that is not humanity. Humanity is here mentioned: God is the seed-giving father all living entities. That is the fact. That is humanity. They do not know what is meaning by humanity. Here is the explanation, humanity. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Unless you come to that stage, there is no question of humanity. Artificially, you manufacture something and you think humanity. According to your convenience, "Let us combine together and exploit other living entities for our benefit." That is not humanity. They do not know what is humanity. Here is the explanation. How humanity can be established unless there is the understanding of the supreme father, how there is question of . . . how this question of brotherhood can come in? Here Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the seed-giving father." So you try to understand this, then humanity. You cannot manufacture some ideas of humanity, imperfect, because you are imperfect. Here is perfect idea. So how can we be convinced that this is perfect or that it's practical? Because both ideas seem to us to be theoretical. This idea of humanity as . . . *Theoretical? How it is theoretical? It is practical. You have no intelligence. Your . . . you say this is also theoretical. Did you not say? I say it is practical. It is practical. From that verse, if you have got brain, you study, you'll see that it is practical if you are intelligent. But if you are dull, then you'll not understand. How it is practical? Here Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the seed-giving father." So do you think it is theoretical? Do you think? No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I don't . . . No, no, for argument's sake. Yes. *Unless there is a seed*-giving father, how it is possible of a child simply by the mother? Is there any practical example? If one girl has given birth to a child, do you think the child is born without father? Eh? Is it possible? No. *Therefore when Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the seed*-giving father," what is the wrong there? No living entity can take birth without being seed-given by the father. Everywhere you see that without seed-giving father how a child can take birth? But how can we accept that situation? Perhaps the creation is a special circumstance? No, no. No special. "Perhaps," this is impractical. Why do you say "perhaps"? That is nonsense. As soon as you say "perhaps," then you are rascal. You'll have to show a practical example. *Yes, when you talking of practical things and you bring argument, "perhaps," then you are rascal, immediately. Give practical example, no "perhaps," "maybe." No. That argument will not do. These rascals are giving that argument, "perhaps," "maybe." That is not argument. Be practical when you talk of practical things. Practically you do not see that without father there is any child born. No. Either in the animals or in the human beings or in the birds—everywhere, seed*-giving father is there. Freud's idea . . . Freud admitted that, that we are all like children, but his philosophy was that the children have to grow up and go out and look after themselves. They can't remain dependent on the father forever, so they have to grow up and face the world. That is another rascal. Because everyone, every living entity is dependent on the father's arrangement. God is the supreme father. He was a Christian or not, Freud? I don't know what he was. What he was? He was mainly Freudian. He believed in himself. He had his own philosophy. He was Christian, yes . . . Christian. So why the Christian go and . . . go to the father, "Give us our daily bread"? That means that you are dependent on father. How you can say independent? But that's the point, that we have to grow up and become dependent on our own work. No. The Vedic injunction is eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God means He's supplying the necessities of all His sons. That is God. And that is practical. You are dependent. The animals, they are dependent on grass. So wherefrom the grass is coming? Why that land is deserted and this land is green place? Can you change it? Why you don't change the desert to be green? So if you think that, "I'm living on animal. I don't care for grass," but the animal depending on grass, and the grass is depending on God's mercy. So how you can say you are not dependent on God? You are dependent. But because you are a rascal fraud, you want to cheat and become a Freud, that's all. You are a great fraud, therefore you're talking like that. You are dependent on God in every step. You cannot be independent. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra . Find out this verse. That is fraud. He's thinking independently. He's not independent. "The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities which are in actuality carried out by nature." *So how we are independent? Did Mr. Freud not die? When prakṛti , nature, kicked on his face, he immediately died. So how he's independent? These rascals have created all troubles. The so*-called rascal philosophers, scientists, politicians, they have created all troubles. He's completely dependent on nature, on the laws of nature, and still he says: "I am independent. I have grown up." What you have grown up? You have grown up as a great fool, that's all. You have not grown up to be intelligent. You have grown up a great rascal, that's all. So refute them in this way, then you'll be preacher. So what is your argument about humanity? Well, if God is, as you say . . . God is the father. If God is meant to be propitiated, then why is it that we have so many things for our enjoyment? You say that everything is for God's enjoyment. *Yes, God has given you enjoyment, but you cannot enjoy yourself, alone. There are other sons, they will also enjoy. If you interfere with other sons, then you'll be punished. God's son is the lamb, and you let him enjoy, you also enjoy. But if you interfere with his right, then you'll be punished. That is God's law. Sarva*-yoniṣu , God is not only your father, he's father of the lamb also. So if by your brute force you want to kill the poor lamb, then you'll be punished. This is natural. You have got your food; you produce your foodgrain and you eat. Why should you eat another animal? God says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), you must eat to become strong. But that does not mean you'll eat another brother. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1): whatever He has designated, you eat like that. You are human being, you can produce food. You grow foodstuffs, rice, wheat, fruit, flowers, vegetables. That is allowed. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . You produce anna; why should you kill an animal? And offer it to Kṛṣṇa, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). He never says that, "You give Me an animal." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam . So you produce patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam , and offer to Kṛṣṇa, and then take. In our experience we have no understanding how this can be practical, because we think that meat is good for our strength. How can we be strong? No. Therefore you are not human being; you are animal. If you cannot produce your food . . . uncivilized animals, they cannot produce their food. But you are given the chance of becoming human being. If you cannot produce your food, if you do not know how to cook food, how to offer it, then you are not human being; you are animal. When the uncivilized man in the jungle, they did not know how to produce food, they used to kill animals. So if you want to remain in the same uncivilized status of life, then where you are human being? You have got greater intelligence. You produce your food. Why should you kill animal like the uncivilized jungle men? Your action is just like jungle man, and you are claiming to be civilized man. Because they are thinking that they are the proprietor. That is their folly. They are not proprietor. They are not proprietor. That is already discussed. Proprietor is the Supreme Lord; you are not proprietor. That is another point. Falsely you are claiming proprietor. How you are proprietor? Everyone can claim proprietor, and that is going on. Everyone is claiming proprietor and they are fighting. That is going on. And if you accept God is proprietor and we are dependent on Him, then there is no fight. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā . This īśa, Īśopanisad verse is perfectly describing, tena tyaktena : you are not proprietor. You accept things what the proprietor has given you, allotted for you. You are not proprietor. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā . Do not encroach upon others. Then how you become proprietor? We are falsely claiming proprietorship; we are encroaching upon others' independence. This is our business. How there can be peace? It is not possible. This property is walled, that property is walled. You cannot encroach on the other side of the wall. Then it is criminal, trespassing. The government's duty is to see that nobody's encroaching on others. Similarly, God's duty is that, that everyone is God's son, you don't encroach upon other son's right, then you'll be punished. You have got right to live and the lamb has got right to live. Why should you encroach upon his living right? Because you are strong? That is not humanity. The animal is there for benefit. Let him live, and you take the fur. You can use it for your coat. But why should you kill it? The cow is giving milk like mother, why should you kill it? This is humanity, to kill the mother? So in this way we are encroaching the rights of others, and we are becoming subject to be punished by God. This is going on. You may say there is no God, but God is there; you'll be punished. The outlaws, they will say: "We don't care for government." You may say so, but government will take action. You cannot avoid it. This is humanity. Good citizenship means one who knows the laws of the state. That is good citizen. If one does not know the laws of the state, he's a fool; he's not a good citizen. One who knows the law, he keeps right and left, he knows this is the order of the government, cars should be driven on the right side or left side, he is good citizen. One who does not know the law of the state, he's not a good citizen. He's a fool, rascal, what to speak of humanity. Some people say . . . so we will even say, "I don't care for your rational arguments." Some people say, "I don't care for your . . ." Then you are animal, because animal has no rationality. Then you are animal. Better not to talk with you. What is the use of talking with you? You are animal. You have no rationality. Man is rational animal, this is the definition. You have no rationality, therefore you are animal. What is the use of talking with you? Waste time. If you have no rationality, then you are animal. That is the difficulty. People are kept in the status of animal, and they are expected human behavior. How it is possible? It is not possible. So therefore our endeavor is to bring them to the standard of humanity, real humanity. Then there will be peace, prosperity, everything all right. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You don't care for rationality, that means you are animal. Man is rational animal. That is the definition. If you have no rationality . . . dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ . . . this is Vedic injunction. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samāna (Hitopadeśa). Anyone who has no religious principle, he's animal. Therefore you'll find in human society, it doesn't matter whether it is Iran or India or Europe, there is some religion. Because without religion they are animals. Animal has no religion. The animal is . . . dog is dog. It is not a Christian dog or a Hindu dog. Hindu, Christian comes when they are human being. So a civilized society must have the rationality, religion. Religion is rationality, to accept God. What is religion? Religion means to accept God. They say that, "You may have so many wonderful philosophies, but our desire is just to enjoy life." That means animal. That means animal. Animal has no philosophy. Also they say that religions are the causes of war. In Lebanon now the Christians are killing the Muslims and the Muslims are killing the Christians, in the name of . . . And the Communists are killing capitalists and capitalists are killing Communists. What is that? Is that religion? Then? So how you can stop war? Because you are animal, you fight, you can give some name, either on religious ground or this philosophical ground. But because you are animal you will fight. You can give a different name. That is different thing. But because you are dogs, you'll fight. The real religion is why they will fight? Religion means to accept God. So if you are Muslim, I am Hindu, if I accept God, if you accept God, then where is fight? If we accept that God is the proprietor, God is the father, then where is the question of fight? Because we are not religious, therefore fight. Otherwise, if you accept God is the supreme father, if I accept God is the supreme, why fight? (pause) So we have to go down? Everything you say, Prabhupāda, makes sense. Everything you say makes sense. *Yes. Our preaching should be sensible, then people will accept. After all, they are human being. There is sense, but by force they are covering the sense. So we have to awaken them by handling carefully, that's all. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo gauracānda bole. Who are . . . uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpya varan nibodhata (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.3.14). They are sleeping. We have awaken them, that's it. That is preaching. Even the animal*-killing, where it is absolutely necessary . . . so according to any religious principle, there is God. Just like who was telling me? You were telling me about the lamb killing? The injunction is that the mouth should be toward Mecca. Is it like that? Yes, Prabhupāda. So because there is no other way . . . suppose in the desert, what they'll do? They must eat something. But still there is sense of God, there is some regulative principle. There is also principle of sacrifice with very strict regulations. So in this way God consciousness must be there. That is civilization. You want to go down, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Hmm. Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Conversation A -- August 11, 1976, Tehran . . . strongly by chance? Yes. How do they support? In other words, they cannot give explanation, and like a foolish man says, "Chance." You cannot give proper explanation how things are happening. Like a foolish rascal: "Chance." Because they see according to their intelligence that things are happening according to chance. According to their understanding, sometimes things happen . . . So what is this understanding? The chance? In their experience, or in our experience, we see things are happening . . . Then what is the use of the scientists? Things will take place by chance. What is the use of them? By chance there may be an accident, or by chance there may be . . . Anyway, things will happen by chance, accident. So why they're bothering about things and taking the credit of becoming scientist? It's not completely chance. There are certain laws which they try to find, which act whenever these elements . . . So in other words, that they are not yet conversant with the things, and still they are claiming to be scientist. That is the point. They do not know thoroughly how things are happening, and still they are taking the credit of becoming scientist. They have developed a branch of mathematics that deals with chance, things happening with chance. Yes, that mathematics department is now being closed. You know that? Nobody cares to attend that mathematic. People are becoming disinterested with these chance theories. There is one Dr. Henderson, you know? He became doctor in that field. He's not getting job, now he's manufacturing incense. Oh, George Henderson? George Henderson. He has no job here. All these theoretical doctors are no longer required by university. *I was reading the other day that they are doing some experiments on Mars. They have twenty*-two different theories about this one idea. Just this one little idea, twenty-two different theories. Theory means they are not certain. The misfortunate thing is that people in general have faith in the scientists. So you have to create people to have faith in Kṛṣṇa. If people are going by faith, so you have to create this faith that Kṛṣṇa, that's all. They can create, you can create. And they criticize our destiny theory, believe in the destiny. They criticize it. So why they'll depend on chance theory? What is the difference, destiny and chance? Destiny means there is controller. Huh? Destiny means there is a controller. That's all right, but they cannot explain what is that controller; *therefore they disbelieve. Just like yesterday we were discussing that atheist class, they are by chance there was lusty desires and there was pregnancy and there will be child. So we say: "No. Daiva*-netreṇa . These things have been arranged by superior authorities." This is destiny, that what is already arranged by superior authority, that is destiny. You cannot change it. A man is ordered to be hanged by the court justice, you cannot change it. He is to be hanged. And they will say, "By chance he will be hanged." Sometimes something happens to interfere with that. He gets a reprieve from the governor, or the rope breaks, and they only hang him once, like that. That is another thing, but first thing is that if one is ordered to be hanged, he has to be hanged. Destined. But these people, they do not see who has ordered because they do not accept authority. They will say: "It is by chance." They have not seen who has ordered, who is that authority. They cannot explain, therefore they say "chance." They have no science of astrology, so they cannot understand the universe and how it's working. Astrology . . . I don't think they believe in astrology. There is no question of astrology. We practically we see that one man ordered to be hanged by the justice, he has to be hanged. That is destiny. One has not seen who has ordered, but he sees that, "This man is being hanged." He cannot explain; he says: "By chance." So whose explanation is right? The chance explanation or the destiny explanation—which is right? Actually, logically, I cannot see how there is any chance, not a single. When I was a child I used to give an argument to my friend, and he used to say: "A chance. Everything is chance. It is like a lottery ticket." I said to him, "If you don't buy the lottery ticket and win $50,000, then that is chance. But if you buy the lottery ticket . . ." How it is chance? There is no chance, because you bought the lottery ticket, so . . . Your destiny. Then your destiny. They miss the order and the controller and the organizer. That is whole purpose—how to defy God. That is their whole plan. Yes, the mind is attracted to that. No, there are always two classes of men: devatā and demons. Demon class will always say like that, "There is no God. We are everything." Devatā class, they will always believe in. That is the difference, devatā class. This struggle will always be there. *There are two classes of men throughout the whole universe. One is called daiva and the other is called asura . The viṣṇu*-bhaktaḥ bhaved daivaḥ , those who are devotees of the Lord, they are daiva . And āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ, and those who are not devotees, they are just the opposite number, they are asura . So asura class will always say like that. And there is always fight between the two, even in higher planetary systems. Only Brahmaloka, Satyaloka, there are no more asuras . So asura class will always fight like that, and devatā class will always defy. But for God everyone is equal, because all of them are sons of God. Therefore an attempt is always going on to turn the asuras to become devotees. For this purpose God Himself comes, He sends His representative, how these rascal asuras can be turned into devotees. Otherwise, the asura class is always be there. That's the business of the representative. Yes. Because God is equal to everyone. He sees that these rascal asuras are misguided, so He sends His representative, He comes Himself, there is śāstras , guidance, and everything. The whole propaganda is how these rascal asuras can be turned into devatā . This is equality in the eyes of God. Very simple thing. Just like government puts a person into prison house. The idea is to correct him. Not that government is enemy of a class of men, they are put into the prison house. Government is equal. But there is department of punishing this . . . (aside) Don't show . . . (indistinct) . . . Government is equal to everyone, but there is the department of reformation which is called jail department. He's punished so that he may come to his senses that, "I have done wrong." But unfortunately there are stubborn criminals, they are not corrected. They go and again come, go and again come. One term finished; another term. One term finished . . . that is transmigration. One term finished, punishment, and another term begins. He creates another term. So that is daiva netreṇa. That is superior arrangement. Now this rascal has finished his human life, now again he has committed so many sins, let him become a dog. Again comes to the human form of life; again one chance is given. This not good. But he does not accept, so again he becomes a tree—stand up for ten thousand years. Nothing is a chance. Everything is under supreme control. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ( BG 3.27). But he is a rascal. He simply defies and suffers. One man is being slapped with shoes, so he is shameless, he says: "Oh, you have beaten me with shoes. All right, if you touch my wife, I'll sue you." Then the wife is beaten with shoes, then he says: "Oh, you have beaten my wife. All right, touch my son, I will sue you." In this way every member is being beaten with shoes, and he is simply challenging that, "I'll sue, I'll sue." This is going on. He's punished one after another, but he is so shameless that still he defies the authority. That is called asura . They're not very intelligent. "Next time I will see it. Wait millions of years, I shall see." This is going on. So we have to deal with asuras . This is the position. That's why it's so difficult. Huh? That's why it's so difficult. Yes. That is a devotee's business. *Huh? Yes. That is devotee. Because God wants it that these rascals may be turned into sane man. That is God's plan. Otherwise why does He comes? Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Huh? Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8)—two class, sādhu and duṣkṛtinaḥ . So to punish these duṣkṛtinaḥ , that is reformation. That is not God's envy, reformation. As the father gives slap to rogue child, that is also kindness, so these two processes are going on, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya . Then what is that dharma ? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). That is dharma . So to deal with the asuras is not so easy job, but we have to do that. You should not be discouraged. So asuras may be reformed or not be reformed, but because you are trying this job on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, He will recognize you. Your service will be recognized. Not that you attempted, therefore you must be successful. You may be unsuccessful. It doesn't matter. But you have tried your best, and that will be recognized. (pause) *And these asuras are trying to become happy by material advancement of knowledge. They're not happy—struggling—but this is called will*-o'-the-wisp, phantasmagoria. Actually, they are not happy, they cannot be happy, but they are trying. How they can be happy? Nature is there. They are falsely proud of their achievements. *That is asura . That is, that means asura . They have already tried the moon excursion, failure—again do it. This will be a failure—again do it. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), repeatedly chewing the chewed. That is their business. One excursion—failure. It is already chewed. Whatever possibility finished—again chewing, "Let me see if there is any juice." Because they have no other business. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā . They are already discussed. This is their business. Failure; again. Failure; again. One war started, all the city bombarded, finished—again start, again reconstruct. And when the reconstruct finished, again war. Again bomb it, again reconstruct. Sometimes boys come here and they are involved in impersonal meditation. They want liberation . . . Well, that is their business. Let them do. You try to understand the position. Meditation is also something. Asuras , they do not take to meditation. Meditation is something beginning to the path of devatā. Dhyānāvasthita . If they are actually serious, then they can profit. Meditation is not always bad, if they are properly guided. But that is not the business of the asuras . They say: "On whom I shall meditate?" The asuras do not do that. They have special meditation for asuras these days. Eh? They have special classes in meditation for asuras . They give them some meaningless word to meditate upon. So what is the purpose of this meditation? To make . . . to relax the mind. Oh, that is another thing. Material. That is that Transcendental Meditation. (long pause) How can we convince them? Hmm? How can you convince? They are asuras . No, those who doing some meditation that are Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . No, they are also asuras . They do not know what is the meaning of meditation. That is psychology; it is not meditation. Or some medical treatment. Meditation is different, real meditation. What is . . . what is real meditation? *Real meditation is to find out the Supersoul within the core of the heart. That is real meditation. God is situated in everyone's heart, so the yogīs , they try to find out Supersoul within the heart. That is real yogī. Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginam (SB 12.13.1). This is real yogī , trying to contact the Supersoul. They are searching after the God in His all-pervading feature. But, ah, some of them, they want to become one. That is asuric. One with God, that is asuric. Because they are being defeated by God, so therefore they want to become God to stop this defeat. That is asuric. Therefore they will never be able to be, but they are trying for it. It is the highest blasphemy. Huh? It is the highest blasphemy, isn't it? If one says: "I am God." *No, highest ignorance, highest rascaldom. (laughter) Yes. How one can become God? If one can become God, that means the such*-and-such, he was God. Then how he has become dog? That is another rascaldom, ambition. A devotee is only supposed to want service, and sometimes he very much wants to be liberated to be finished with all this difficulty, isn't it? Yes. Is it very contaminating? Not contaminating, not in the highest stage. That is not contaminating. If the devotee wants liberation, then they're in the lower stage. Actually, a devotee, he is already liberated. Why he shall aspire after liberation? Pure devotee's liberated. *Therefore when he's purified, he's already liberated. There is no question of his aspiring after liberation. He's already liberated. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). If the devotee's purified, he's convinced that if he becomes purified he will be free. *Yes. The whole devotional process is purificatory process. The more he is purified, he becomes high*-class devotee. But the process is the path of liberation. Just like mango. The green mango, this green mango will be ripe mango. The same mango. You cannot say that the ripe mango is different from the green mango. It is a process. By the process the same green mango becomes yellow; then it is perfect. (long pause; devotees chant japa in background) What is that point, there are thirty theories or something, about this Mars planet? *Twenty*-two theories. You just told? They are trying to understand the geology of the planet and how the surface of the planet was formed, and what . . . They have different . . . (break) They are so foolish that they say that these experiments are very wonderful. They are very proud of these experiments . . . Hmm? Because they do not know. Yes, the result is . . . Wonderful. Do not know. Wonderfully do not know. The platform is, "Do not know"; it is still wonderful. Wonderful foolish, like that. The platform remains "Do not know," but still it is wonderful. Their most intelligent philosophers and thinkers, they always say the more we know . . . Hmm? Their most intelligent philosophers and thinkers, they say that the more that we know, the more that we understand that we do not know . . . (indistinct) And that is wonderful. The more they become convinced that, "I do not know," that is wonderful. When they'll know? And then they make these statements that, "The earth is this old . . ." They make statements like "The earth is this many years," without any factual basis. They are wonderful rascals. Just see. Shameless. Wonderful shameless rascals. They say that the moon planet is desert, vacant, no living entities. And we say that it is the planet for the pious men to live there very opulently for ten thousand . . . of these two classes of knowledge, which is better? We have got some evidence in the śāstra , but they have no evidence—they are simply speculating. Now this moon . . . er, Mars, they'll find the same result. Then how long they will go on like this? As long as the society is godless . . . Huh? As long as the society's godless, then . . . So how long they will present the same theory over and over again? They're already putting the same thing. They have concluded in the moon there is rocks and sand, nobody can live. The same thing they are saying in a different way, and at the end they will have to say like that. Because they have no knowledge, it is simply theoretical. And they have no other alternative than to say the same thing again and again. What they will say? They say on Mars there can be life because the conditions are a little bit like earth. Suppose there is life, then what you gain? They say that our knowledge now is not mere theoretical because now we have gone there. But what profit you have gained? You have spent some millions of dollars, that's all. More theories. ( japa ) The government encourages this spending of money while the citizens are unhappy and cannot be safe in their own city. *Yes, you must have such government. Dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ. They will snatch your money by force. You cannot say anything. That is punishment. Godless civilization, that is punishment, that your own government will snatch, by force, take away all your hard labor accumulation, by taxation. That is written in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . You cannot fight. You will be harassed in so many ways you will become mad. Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā yāsyanti giri-kānanam (SB 12.2.8). Hopelessly they will leave hearth and home and go to the forest. This godless civilization will be punished like that. That day is coming like that. Nobody will be peaceful. They will be mad. Just like when a man becomes mad, he commits suicide, he blows off his head. This will be done. There will be no rain—this is one punishment—and scarcity of food and heavy taxation by government. They are all mentioned. What more suffering you want? But still they are advancing, scientists. One of the most practical things that people give credit to the scientists for is that they have invented these insecticides, these things that kill insects. But now they find that after they spray, after a few generations, the insects become immune to this, and they become stronger. Yes. The antibiotics medicine, at a certain stage it does not work. If too much antibiotic injection is given, then the . . . (indistinct) . . . does not work. It is like that with this syphilis disease, this venereal disease. Now they cannot kill certain strains of it. They cannot do anything about it. It becomes immune to penicillin. That is a big disease in United States. A big disease. *This is always, Western disease. It is a Western disease. Vairanga*-roga . In the Āyur-veda it is called vairanga-roga. Fairanga, farangi, farangi . The Westerners are called farangi , the vairanga-roga. So this syphilis disease was imported in India by these Europeans. Before, it was not there. There is a medicine called . . . (indistinct) . . . injection. Fifty years ago it was one rupee, four annas , price. But during the wartime the same medicine was selling at nineteen. In black market. That is their nature—everyone wants to exploit. Hmm. I have seen it, one rupee, four annas, the price goes nineteen. There is a story about a man who made some perfect cloth that would never get dirty, never get torn. So he made a suit out of it, and he was trying to market it. So he went to the capitalists, "Now I have made some perfect cloth." And they did not like it because they could not sell more cloth after they sold this. No one would want anything else. And the workers, they did not like it either, because they would lose their jobs. No one would buy this cloth. What is that? They tried to kill him. What is that? He's telling a story. A story. The story is about perfect cloth. Perfect? Perfect cloth. Cloth. So everyone was trying to kill him because he had this perfect cloth and it would put everybody out of business, because their business was based on exploitation, on the things wearing out, getting old, having to be renewed. Hmm. So we shall go now. This sun . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Conversation A -- August 11, 1976, Tehran . . . strongly by chance? Yes. How do they support? In other words, they cannot give explanation, and like a foolish man says, "Chance." You cannot give proper explanation how things are happening. Like a foolish rascal: "Chance." Because they see according to their intelligence that things are happening according to chance. According to their understanding, sometimes things happen . . . So what is this understanding? The chance? In their experience, or in our experience, we see things are happening . . . Then what is the use of the scientists? Things will take place by chance. What is the use of them? By chance there may be an accident, or by chance there may be . . . Anyway, things will happen by chance, accident. So why they're bothering about things and taking the credit of becoming scientist? It's not completely chance. There are certain laws which they try to find, which act whenever these elements . . . So in other words, that they are not yet conversant with the things, and still they are claiming to be scientist. That is the point. They do not know thoroughly how things are happening, and still they are taking the credit of becoming scientist. They have developed a branch of mathematics that deals with chance, things happening with chance. Yes, that mathematics department is now being closed. You know that? Nobody cares to attend that mathematic. People are becoming disinterested with these chance theories. There is one Dr. Henderson, you know? He became doctor in that field. He's not getting job, now he's manufacturing incense. Oh, George Henderson? George Henderson. He has no job here. All these theoretical doctors are no longer required by university. *I was reading the other day that they are doing some experiments on Mars. They have twenty*-two different theories about this one idea. Just this one little idea, twenty-two different theories. Theory means they are not certain. The misfortunate thing is that people in general have faith in the scientists. So you have to create people to have faith in Kṛṣṇa. If people are going by faith, so you have to create this faith that Kṛṣṇa, that's all. They can create, you can create. And they criticize our destiny theory, believe in the destiny. They criticize it. So why they'll depend on chance theory? What is the difference, destiny and chance? Destiny means there is controller. Huh? Destiny means there is a controller. That's all right, but they cannot explain what is that controller; *therefore they disbelieve. Just like yesterday we were discussing that atheist class, they are by chance there was lusty desires and there was pregnancy and there will be child. So we say: "No. Daiva*-netreṇa . These things have been arranged by superior authorities." This is destiny, that what is already arranged by superior authority, that is destiny. You cannot change it. A man is ordered to be hanged by the court justice, you cannot change it. He is to be hanged. And they will say, "By chance he will be hanged." Sometimes something happens to interfere with that. He gets a reprieve from the governor, or the rope breaks, and they only hang him once, like that. That is another thing, but first thing is that if one is ordered to be hanged, he has to be hanged. Destined. But these people, they do not see who has ordered because they do not accept authority. They will say: "It is by chance." They have not seen who has ordered, who is that authority. They cannot explain, therefore they say "chance." They have no science of astrology, so they cannot understand the universe and how it's working. Astrology . . . I don't think they believe in astrology. There is no question of astrology. We practically we see that one man ordered to be hanged by the justice, he has to be hanged. That is destiny. One has not seen who has ordered, but he sees that, "This man is being hanged." He cannot explain; he says: "By chance." So whose explanation is right? The chance explanation or the destiny explanation—which is right? Actually, logically, I cannot see how there is any chance, not a single. When I was a child I used to give an argument to my friend, and he used to say: "A chance. Everything is chance. It is like a lottery ticket." I said to him, "If you don't buy the lottery ticket and win $50,000, then that is chance. But if you buy the lottery ticket . . ." How it is chance? There is no chance, because you bought the lottery ticket, so . . . Your destiny. Then your destiny. They miss the order and the controller and the organizer. That is whole purpose—how to defy God. That is their whole plan. Yes, the mind is attracted to that. No, there are always two classes of men: devatā and demons. Demon class will always say like that, "There is no God. We are everything." Devatā class, they will always believe in. That is the difference, devatā class. This struggle will always be there. *There are two classes of men throughout the whole universe. One is called daiva and the other is called asura . The viṣṇu*-bhaktaḥ bhaved daivaḥ , those who are devotees of the Lord, they are daiva . And āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ, and those who are not devotees, they are just the opposite number, they are asura . So asura class will always say like that. And there is always fight between the two, even in higher planetary systems. Only Brahmaloka, Satyaloka, there are no more asuras . So asura class will always fight like that, and devatā class will always defy. But for God everyone is equal, because all of them are sons of God. Therefore an attempt is always going on to turn the asuras to become devotees. For this purpose God Himself comes, He sends His representative, how these rascal asuras can be turned into devotees. Otherwise, the asura class is always be there. That's the business of the representative. Yes. Because God is equal to everyone. He sees that these rascal asuras are misguided, so He sends His representative, He comes Himself, there is śāstras , guidance, and everything. The whole propaganda is how these rascal asuras can be turned into devatā . This is equality in the eyes of God. Very simple thing. Just like government puts a person into prison house. The idea is to correct him. Not that government is enemy of a class of men, they are put into the prison house. Government is equal. But there is department of punishing this . . . (aside) Don't show . . . (indistinct) . . . Government is equal to everyone, but there is the department of reformation which is called jail department. He's punished so that he may come to his senses that, "I have done wrong." But unfortunately there are stubborn criminals, they are not corrected. They go and again come, go and again come. One term finished; another term. One term finished . . . that is transmigration. One term finished, punishment, and another term begins. He creates another term. So that is daiva netreṇa. That is superior arrangement. Now this rascal has finished his human life, now again he has committed so many sins, let him become a dog. Again comes to the human form of life; again one chance is given. This not good. But he does not accept, so again he becomes a tree—stand up for ten thousand years. Nothing is a chance. Everything is under supreme control. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ( BG 3.27). But he is a rascal. He simply defies and suffers. One man is being slapped with shoes, so he is shameless, he says: "Oh, you have beaten me with shoes. All right, if you touch my wife, I'll sue you." Then the wife is beaten with shoes, then he says: "Oh, you have beaten my wife. All right, touch my son, I will sue you." In this way every member is being beaten with shoes, and he is simply challenging that, "I'll sue, I'll sue." This is going on. He's punished one after another, but he is so shameless that still he defies the authority. That is called asura . They're not very intelligent. "Next time I will see it. Wait millions of years, I shall see." This is going on. So we have to deal with asuras . This is the position. That's why it's so difficult. Huh? That's why it's so difficult. Yes. That is a devotee's business. *Huh? Yes. That is devotee. Because God wants it that these rascals may be turned into sane man. That is God's plan. Otherwise why does He comes? Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Huh? Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8)—two class, sādhu and duṣkṛtinaḥ . So to punish these duṣkṛtinaḥ , that is reformation. That is not God's envy, reformation. As the father gives slap to rogue child, that is also kindness, so these two processes are going on, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya . Then what is that dharma ? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). That is dharma . So to deal with the asuras is not so easy job, but we have to do that. You should not be discouraged. So asuras may be reformed or not be reformed, but because you are trying this job on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, He will recognize you. Your service will be recognized. Not that you attempted, therefore you must be successful. You may be unsuccessful. It doesn't matter. But you have tried your best, and that will be recognized. (pause) *And these asuras are trying to become happy by material advancement of knowledge. They're not happy—struggling—but this is called will*-o'-the-wisp, phantasmagoria. Actually, they are not happy, they cannot be happy, but they are trying. How they can be happy? Nature is there. They are falsely proud of their achievements. *That is asura . That is, that means asura . They have already tried the moon excursion, failure—again do it. This will be a failure—again do it. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), repeatedly chewing the chewed. That is their business. One excursion—failure. It is already chewed. Whatever possibility finished—again chewing, "Let me see if there is any juice." Because they have no other business. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā . They are already discussed. This is their business. Failure; again. Failure; again. One war started, all the city bombarded, finished—again start, again reconstruct. And when the reconstruct finished, again war. Again bomb it, again reconstruct. Sometimes boys come here and they are involved in impersonal meditation. They want liberation . . . Well, that is their business. Let them do. You try to understand the position. Meditation is also something. Asuras , they do not take to meditation. Meditation is something beginning to the path of devatā. Dhyānāvasthita . If they are actually serious, then they can profit. Meditation is not always bad, if they are properly guided. But that is not the business of the asuras . They say: "On whom I shall meditate?" The asuras do not do that. They have special meditation for asuras these days. Eh? They have special classes in meditation for asuras . They give them some meaningless word to meditate upon. So what is the purpose of this meditation? To make . . . to relax the mind. Oh, that is another thing. Material. That is that Transcendental Meditation. (long pause) How can we convince them? Hmm? How can you convince? They are asuras . No, those who doing some meditation that are Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . No, they are also asuras . They do not know what is the meaning of meditation. That is psychology; it is not meditation. Or some medical treatment. Meditation is different, real meditation. What is . . . what is real meditation? *Real meditation is to find out the Supersoul within the core of the heart. That is real meditation. God is situated in everyone's heart, so the yogīs , they try to find out Supersoul within the heart. That is real yogī. Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginam (SB 12.13.1). This is real yogī , trying to contact the Supersoul. They are searching after the God in His all-pervading feature. But, ah, some of them, they want to become one. That is asuric. One with God, that is asuric. Because they are being defeated by God, so therefore they want to become God to stop this defeat. That is asuric. Therefore they will never be able to be, but they are trying for it. It is the highest blasphemy. Huh? It is the highest blasphemy, isn't it? If one says: "I am God." *No, highest ignorance, highest rascaldom. (laughter) Yes. How one can become God? If one can become God, that means the such*-and-such, he was God. Then how he has become dog? That is another rascaldom, ambition. A devotee is only supposed to want service, and sometimes he very much wants to be liberated to be finished with all this difficulty, isn't it? Yes. Is it very contaminating? Not contaminating, not in the highest stage. That is not contaminating. If the devotee wants liberation, then they're in the lower stage. Actually, a devotee, he is already liberated. Why he shall aspire after liberation? Pure devotee's liberated. *Therefore when he's purified, he's already liberated. There is no question of his aspiring after liberation. He's already liberated. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). If the devotee's purified, he's convinced that if he becomes purified he will be free. *Yes. The whole devotional process is purificatory process. The more he is purified, he becomes high*-class devotee. But the process is the path of liberation. Just like mango. The green mango, this green mango will be ripe mango. The same mango. You cannot say that the ripe mango is different from the green mango. It is a process. By the process the same green mango becomes yellow; then it is perfect. (long pause; devotees chant japa in background) What is that point, there are thirty theories or something, about this Mars planet? *Twenty*-two theories. You just told? They are trying to understand the geology of the planet and how the surface of the planet was formed, and what . . . They have different . . . (break) They are so foolish that they say that these experiments are very wonderful. They are very proud of these experiments . . . Hmm? Because they do not know. Yes, the result is . . . Wonderful. Do not know. Wonderfully do not know. The platform is, "Do not know"; it is still wonderful. Wonderful foolish, like that. The platform remains "Do not know," but still it is wonderful. Their most intelligent philosophers and thinkers, they always say the more we know . . . Hmm? Their most intelligent philosophers and thinkers, they say that the more that we know, the more that we understand that we do not know . . . (indistinct) And that is wonderful. The more they become convinced that, "I do not know," that is wonderful. When they'll know? And then they make these statements that, "The earth is this old . . ." They make statements like "The earth is this many years," without any factual basis. They are wonderful rascals. Just see. Shameless. Wonderful shameless rascals. They say that the moon planet is desert, vacant, no living entities. And we say that it is the planet for the pious men to live there very opulently for ten thousand . . . of these two classes of knowledge, which is better? We have got some evidence in the śāstra , but they have no evidence—they are simply speculating. Now this moon . . . er, Mars, they'll find the same result. Then how long they will go on like this? As long as the society is godless . . . Huh? As long as the society's godless, then . . . So how long they will present the same theory over and over again? They're already putting the same thing. They have concluded in the moon there is rocks and sand, nobody can live. The same thing they are saying in a different way, and at the end they will have to say like that. Because they have no knowledge, it is simply theoretical. And they have no other alternative than to say the same thing again and again. What they will say? They say on Mars there can be life because the conditions are a little bit like earth. Suppose there is life, then what you gain? They say that our knowledge now is not mere theoretical because now we have gone there. But what profit you have gained? You have spent some millions of dollars, that's all. More theories. ( japa ) The government encourages this spending of money while the citizens are unhappy and cannot be safe in their own city. *Yes, you must have such government. Dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ. They will snatch your money by force. You cannot say anything. That is punishment. Godless civilization, that is punishment, that your own government will snatch, by force, take away all your hard labor accumulation, by taxation. That is written in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . You cannot fight. You will be harassed in so many ways you will become mad. Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā yāsyanti giri-kānanam (SB 12.2.8). Hopelessly they will leave hearth and home and go to the forest. This godless civilization will be punished like that. That day is coming like that. Nobody will be peaceful. They will be mad. Just like when a man becomes mad, he commits suicide, he blows off his head. This will be done. There will be no rain—this is one punishment—and scarcity of food and heavy taxation by government. They are all mentioned. What more suffering you want? But still they are advancing, scientists. One of the most practical things that people give credit to the scientists for is that they have invented these insecticides, these things that kill insects. But now they find that after they spray, after a few generations, the insects become immune to this, and they become stronger. Yes. The antibiotics medicine, at a certain stage it does not work. If too much antibiotic injection is given, then the . . . (indistinct) . . . does not work. It is like that with this syphilis disease, this venereal disease. Now they cannot kill certain strains of it. They cannot do anything about it. It becomes immune to penicillin. That is a big disease in United States. A big disease. *This is always, Western disease. It is a Western disease. Vairanga*-roga . In the Āyur-veda it is called vairanga-roga. Fairanga, farangi, farangi . The Westerners are called farangi , the vairanga-roga. So this syphilis disease was imported in India by these Europeans. Before, it was not there. There is a medicine called . . . (indistinct) . . . injection. Fifty years ago it was one rupee, four annas , price. But during the wartime the same medicine was selling at nineteen. In black market. That is their nature—everyone wants to exploit. Hmm. I have seen it, one rupee, four annas, the price goes nineteen. There is a story about a man who made some perfect cloth that would never get dirty, never get torn. So he made a suit out of it, and he was trying to market it. So he went to the capitalists, "Now I have made some perfect cloth." And they did not like it because they could not sell more cloth after they sold this. No one would want anything else. And the workers, they did not like it either, because they would lose their jobs. No one would buy this cloth. What is that? They tried to kill him. What is that? He's telling a story. A story. The story is about perfect cloth. Perfect? Perfect cloth. Cloth. So everyone was trying to kill him because he had this perfect cloth and it would put everybody out of business, because their business was based on exploitation, on the things wearing out, getting old, having to be renewed. Hmm. So we shall go now. This sun . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Conversation A -- August 12, 1976, Tehran I can give you formula. That toothpaste formula, that is my invention. It's working very nicely. Can we have it? What if we can't find neem leaves here? No, we can supply neem leaves from India, any amount, from Vṛndāvana. Neem leaves from Vṛndāvana is unique. Nobody can imitate us. Yes. Neem leaves we can export from India. In the United Provinces there is ample neem trees. That I shall give you instruction also. We will start, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is better than . . . this is easier than restaurant. Now you consider amongst yourselves. I have no difficulty. I have given direction, "Do like that." Now what you'll do, that is up to you. So far giving help and directions, that you will get perfect, there is no doubt about it. Jaya, jaya . It is perfect. That you will get. Yes. How to manage, how to get ingredients, everything you'll get. Because I have to say only; you have to do. That's all. So that will be all right. Now decide. That will be very nice or very effective. Whatever we shall prepare, it will be very effective. So if there is market, why not introduce? I think there will be market, because this country is undeveloped. We will manage it, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There will be plenty of market. It is undeveloped.We require all these things. The more they become civilized, the more they require medicine and all these things. So you decide. I am so far giving instruction and help, and that will be available. We have been, Śrīla Prabhupāda, talking and thinking about it amongst ourselves, that now that we have this propensity to be in business, instead of working for karmīs we should have our own business. Yes. So it's much better . . . if devotees are in charge, then the karmīs can work for us, and they can become devotees. But if the karmīs are in charge . . . We are. Our Society, it is not that we are simply sannyāsīs . We have got brahmacārīs , we have got gṛhasthas . Yes. We want to set example. So gṛhasthas should be provided with some profession, business, so that they can earn very nicely. That is good idea. He has so much propensity to become engaged in these things. I have the propensity, all the devotees have the propensity. We can . . . So you make your formula, I mean to say, plan and scheme. So far how to do it, that instruction I give. *Now in this house you will see, this house, the plan is that the house, the first floor will be kitchen, restaurant and a store, a little section for store. Store will have Your Divine Grace's books, records, tapes, japa*-mālā and some sweets, prasādam that is made to go, to sell. Who made sandeśa ? It was very nice. Who made the sandeśa ? *Nava*-yauvana's wife. Mañjarī. Yes, she can make sandeśa . Very nice preparation. And some of these products also can be stocked there. Once we start and it is successful, then we can grow. (referring to Harikeśa) He knows how to make kachorī . You like him to stay here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? No, I don't say, but he can give you instruction. So if you will give us the formulas, we can learn from him the formulas for toothpaste? Oh, yes. For toothpaste and what else? You remember it? Hmm . . . No, exactly? But toothpaste, you require collapsible tube. Got to be in tubes? It was better in the bottles. In a tube it just doesn't come out. No, that will come out. The powder must be made very fine. Otherwise, it will not come out. If it's pulverized with a machine it comes out. Yes, if there's a machine it would be nice. Very fine powder. What about if we served it in a different shape. Tube is common. If we make it a little different it would be more attractive. That you have to think, how it will be attractive here. Otherwise paste, put into the collapsible tube, then it becomes complete. The formula is there with everything. Simply it has to be made very fine pulverized. And it lasts for a long time, because the toothpaste Prabhupāda is using now I made in last December. Last December. Are you happy with it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is it good? He made it good? Oh, yes. No, it was not made good because . . . it is not his fault. The powder was not very fine. But it will be better, nice, when the powders are very, very finely pulverized. What other products do you recommend? That you want me, I shall give you. The one on leg that you put that neem oil. That cleared up that cut in two days. Yes. Where is that neem ointment? He was in a car accident in Mauritius, and he got a big cut on his leg, big cut, and then Prabhupāda invented this medicine, cured it in two days. Any cut, any ulcer, it is very . . . (indistinct) You can use for ulcer? No, any . . . Oh, cut, ulceration, cut. How much royalty do we pay you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (laughs) It's gone a bit moldy on the top again. Fifty percent. It's gone a little moldy on the top again, Underneath it's all right, though. No, we shall do it nicely. This looks different. What is this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Salt? No, it is simply neem leaf. Just neem leaf. Neem leaf boiled in ghee. This is not the same. It was not properly done. No. I asked Pālikā. It was very good that other time. It was completely merged in the ghee, and it was very nice. I cooked it for three hours. The water portion should be abolished. Then it will not go, not bad. If the water portion is . . .? Abolished. The secret is cooking it for a long time. Yes, yes, of course, it should be dry. Then it won't go bad. Three hours. If the water portion remains, it will decompose. Do you have to use ghee? Can't we use some oil? Oh, yes, you can use vaseline. Ghee is better, but vaseline you can use. Vaseline is available. I think you are not manufacturing vaseline? Yes, Iran. *Because vaseline is one of the by*-product of petrol. They have olive oil and that here. No olive oil. Vaseline will be very cheap here. And you can, if you want to engage him, if he wants to do something, that Praṇava, let him supply neem leaves, dry, from Vṛndāvana. If he actually wants some money, let him do some business. Let him collect all neem leaves and give him twenty percent profit. Suppose he collects neem, collects and dry it, and then packs it and dispatch. The cost of . . . Shipping and dipatching. The cost of dispatching, we give him twenty percent for him. Some arrangement he may make some profit. Honest business. Not that by cheating get something. That is not good. If he wants money, let him take. Have you had your massage, Śrīla Prabhupāda? No, I'll come back and do. We have to leave soon. We have to leave soon, in fifteen minutes. Yes, I can go. I can . . . give me ten minutes. I am prepared. Ten minutes. So we can get ready to go. Oh, yes. And we can get these formulas from you later. Yes. Jaya . Many things toilet and medicines and . . . we can give. We will like that very much. Let them be engaged in different ways and earn some money. This incense I taught Gargamuni first. Yes. This is better than incense. You teach us the incense also, everything. We will do it. Incense, I first of all taught Gargamuni. The starting was there in New York. Do you know that? And now it has developed very nice. The largest in the world. So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like us to . . . we have . . . this temple has some dakṣiṇā for you. How would you like me to do it? Give you . . . I mean today is Thursday. Would you like it in what form? Would you like us to invest it for you here, or give you the cash? *If you give me interest, eighteen percent, I'll utilize it for Māyāpur*-Vṛndāvana. I shall . . . yes, that's fine. So we can . . . No, purchase one small book, like passbook. So you become my banker; I deposit with you. You receive it and send the interest, that's all. I will be glad to . . . fine. I make you banker. That's all. There is no botheration. You become banker, you send the interest. Now how you are utilizing, you know; I don't bother. But if I get the interest, then I think it is all right. Jaya . Eighteen percent you'll have. What is it? Is it all right? Simple? Yes. So just purchase one small passbook. And . . . you have got that passbook? Or you . . .? No, I know. I shall do it. I will do it. We will put in this bank book, your account, two thousand dollars now, today. And I'll give you some foreign exchange. Give him. Whatever you give, I will put in that account. Give that cash money. Yes. And you will get eighteen percent interest. You want it on a monthly? Yearly? How do you like? Monthly, no yearly. Those Travelers Cheques there? Travelers Cheques I'll keep now. It may be required. (indistinct background conversation between devotees about packing and money throughout) And monthly to India or to America? India, or America. Because America is cheaper. Because if I send it to India, if small amounts go . . . So you send to America. To America is all right? I send it every month to Rāmeśvara. Los Angeles, yes. For deposited in account number I will give you. We will go and we will take care of all this this afternoon. *All right. Keep it now. We are going. We shall come back, and then later on. After coming back we shall give him. (noise of packing) Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yat dadāsi tat kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam ( BG 9.27). (break) It took two weeks to make. Two weeks? Why? Because the ingredients were not . . .? No, because your mustard oil, no one liked to taste it. And then you changed it to mustard seeds. Yes. And then glycerin. Mustard seed also can be exported from India. In the Mathurā district there is sufficient mustard seed. Hmm. Those yellow mustard seeds. Yes. Mustard seeds and instead of chalk powder we mix neem powder. Mustard seed, neem powder. Calcium carbonate. And salt. Calcium carbonate means . . .? Oh, calcium . . . instead of calcium carbonate, let it be neem. It will be very effective. I think the taste will be horrible. Yes, taste will be . . . (laughter) No one will use it. Yes, that is also . . . I saw they make this other toothpaste with sucrose. The second biggest ingredient is sucrose on the karmī toothpaste. Sucrose? What is that sucrose? Sucrose, you know, sucrose and glucose and lactose, those sugars. They use sugar powder, sucrose. Oh, sacrose. Sacrose, yes. Saccharin and sacrose. Saccharin is sugar product. It's like a sweetener but not . . . We tried that, too, the first time, with those saccharin. No, that is no good. That was not good. Salt is available very easily. And they use hard soap powder in these powdered ones. We tried that first with the hard soap powder? They use that also. No, in this latest we shouldn't do it. Latest only simple three things, that's all. That is good. That has come out nice. Menthol, pine oil, camphor, oil of wintergreen, glycerin, mustard powder, powdered salt and calcium carbonate. Oh, yes. Good memory, yes. These are the things. You put all that in the last batch? Yep. In Durban, I think. In Bombay we made this last one. No, that big batch last I made in Sanand. When you went to that Sanand, above Ahmedabad, where that king had his palace, we stayed in that palace. That's when I made that big batch. But first it was developed in Durban. Durban, yes. Because there was no possibility of using datur . My teeth broken, and it became painful, it was not working. Therefore I invented. But it is effective. You said on account of this toothpaste . . . your teeth were so rotten they want to fall out, but the toothpaste won't allow 'em. *Yes, actually my teeth have gone all bad. It is useless. But on account of this toothpaste it is still working. (laughs) Otherwise, according to dental science, it has to be extracted. It is no other remedy. If you go to a dentist, immediately he will say: "Extract all this and have a new set, artificial." That is, I know that. But I don't want to extract. As far as possible, use them and let them fall down automatically, as they have already fallen down so many. Fifty percent already fallen down, and twenty*-five percent are shaking, and still I am eating. Otherwise, according to the dental science, I should not eat any solid food. In Bengal there is a word that when the teeth is gone, then your eating is gone. You cannot digest, you cannot eat. It is not . . . if the foodstuff is not properly chewed, it causes digestive disturbance. Indigestion. Indigestion. And digestive disturbance means so many diseases. And this coughing is due to digestive disturbance. I know that. That's because liver's not working, or . . .? *No. Yes. It is old man's disease. Liver does not work nicely, teeth does not work nicely, there is susceptibility to cold. Old age. All my young friends, they have all died. Nobody's living. One or two still. You know that Dinanath came? I think you know. He's living. He's seventy*-five, seventy-six. Little younger than me. Who's that? Dinanath Mishra in Calcutta. One man, a case pleader. That very thin man? Oh, I know. Yes. He was very sick, actually, when we were there. Yes, he was sick. He was half dead. What about those people when we went back to where you used to live? When we came back from Māyāpur and we went out that night to . . . what do you call? Your old friend's house? Oh, Mulliks. Mulliks. They are just like my younger brothers. Their elder brothers were contemporaries. They are all died. Finished. *They are younger. They are all my childhood playmates. Their older brothers, the eldest one was my very, very intimate friend, Siddhesvar Mullik. We used to ride on the same perambulator when we were three, four years old. And Ratha*-yātrā ceremony was performed with all these guests. They were about, in our neighborhood, there were four, five houses. So all the children of the same age, I was the leader. (laughs) Yes. I organized this Ratha-yātrā. I was performing Rādhāṣṭamī, Janmāṣṭamī, and I was learning how to dress the Rādhā-Govinda. Yes. You used to go in and dress Them? It is, actually, it was our house. Just three, four house after. *Rādhā*-Govinda were the only Deities in the neighborhood, or . . .? *No, only Deity, yes. And Rādhā*-Govinda has big property. In front of the Deity house there is a very big building. Just across the road? That one? Yes, just opposite. That is His building. Very good income. Besides that, He has many other lands. They have got very good income. They're very well looked after. Huh? They're very nicely looked after. Yes. They are one of the oldest aristocratic families of Calcutta, Mulliks. The whole, from Howrah Bridge up to that street, all belongs to their property. Very rich men. Now they don't own so much. No, the Deity has got income. So they have got terms for worshiping the Deity. So one who gets the term for worshiping, he takes the income. Oh, in the family members. *Yes. But practically that is now their income. The more one gets the worshiping term longer, he gets more income. (laughs) The Deity has got very, very good income. All the temples in India . . . just like I am trying to make some fund for Vṛndāvana and Māyāpur. Even no contribution comes, it will go on. The sevā*-pūjā will not stop for want of money. So there will be no want of money. Still, I must make some provision, by the income the sevā-pūjā will go on. Contribution may come or not. That provision should be made. Now in Vṛndāvana Akṣayānanda is collecting and so many ways. Suppose nobody collects. That does not mean this temple will be closed. It must go on. So I am trying to make some provision from that bank interest, at least five to ten thousand rupees so that the Deity worship will not be stopped. That is the system in all Indian temples. It must go on. Nitya-sevā . It must go on. These big, big temple in Vṛndāvana, they have got such arrangement. Otherwise how it is going on for five hundred, six hundred years? They have very good income. Govindajī has got eighteen thousand rupees monthly income. That is . . . He's the richest Deity in Vṛndāvana. And Raṅganātha is tenant of Govindajī. Land is taken from Govindajī, and Raṅganātha's temple is constructed. The Raṅganātha's temple management pays the rent. So Govindajī is the landlord and Raṅganāthajī is tenant. (laughter) Raṅganāthajī is Rāmānuja-sampradāya, Govindajī is Gauḍīya-sampradāya. (laughter) So Rāmānuja-sampradāya is the tenant of Gauḍīya-sampradāya. (break) . . . government is looting? You want to come . . . (indistinct) . . .? Everybody's coming? I guess so. No, as many as we want. Why? (end) Conversation A -- August 12, 1976, Tehran I can give you formula. That toothpaste formula, that is my invention. It's working very nicely. Can we have it? What if we can't find neem leaves here? No, we can supply neem leaves from India, any amount, from Vṛndāvana. Neem leaves from Vṛndāvana is unique. Nobody can imitate us. Yes. Neem leaves we can export from India. In the United Provinces there is ample neem trees. That I shall give you instruction also. We will start, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is better than . . . this is easier than restaurant. Now you consider amongst yourselves. I have no difficulty. I have given direction, "Do like that." Now what you'll do, that is up to you. So far giving help and directions, that you will get perfect, there is no doubt about it. Jaya, jaya . It is perfect. That you will get. Yes. How to manage, how to get ingredients, everything you'll get. Because I have to say only; you have to do. That's all. So that will be all right. Now decide. That will be very nice or very effective. Whatever we shall prepare, it will be very effective. So if there is market, why not introduce? I think there will be market, because this country is undeveloped. We will manage it, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There will be plenty of market. It is undeveloped.We require all these things. The more they become civilized, the more they require medicine and all these things. So you decide. I am so far giving instruction and help, and that will be available. We have been, Śrīla Prabhupāda, talking and thinking about it amongst ourselves, that now that we have this propensity to be in business, instead of working for karmīs we should have our own business. Yes. So it's much better . . . if devotees are in charge, then the karmīs can work for us, and they can become devotees. But if the karmīs are in charge . . . We are. Our Society, it is not that we are simply sannyāsīs . We have got brahmacārīs , we have got gṛhasthas . Yes. We want to set example. So gṛhasthas should be provided with some profession, business, so that they can earn very nicely. That is good idea. He has so much propensity to become engaged in these things. I have the propensity, all the devotees have the propensity. We can . . . So you make your formula, I mean to say, plan and scheme. So far how to do it, that instruction I give. *Now in this house you will see, this house, the plan is that the house, the first floor will be kitchen, restaurant and a store, a little section for store. Store will have Your Divine Grace's books, records, tapes, japa*-mālā and some sweets, prasādam that is made to go, to sell. Who made sandeśa ? It was very nice. Who made the sandeśa ? *Nava*-yauvana's wife. Mañjarī. Yes, she can make sandeśa . Very nice preparation. And some of these products also can be stocked there. Once we start and it is successful, then we can grow. (referring to Harikeśa) He knows how to make kachorī . You like him to stay here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? No, I don't say, but he can give you instruction. So if you will give us the formulas, we can learn from him the formulas for toothpaste? Oh, yes. For toothpaste and what else? You remember it? Hmm . . . No, exactly? But toothpaste, you require collapsible tube. Got to be in tubes? It was better in the bottles. In a tube it just doesn't come out. No, that will come out. The powder must be made very fine. Otherwise, it will not come out. If it's pulverized with a machine it comes out. Yes, if there's a machine it would be nice. Very fine powder. What about if we served it in a different shape. Tube is common. If we make it a little different it would be more attractive. That you have to think, how it will be attractive here. Otherwise paste, put into the collapsible tube, then it becomes complete. The formula is there with everything. Simply it has to be made very fine pulverized. And it lasts for a long time, because the toothpaste Prabhupāda is using now I made in last December. Last December. Are you happy with it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is it good? He made it good? Oh, yes. No, it was not made good because . . . it is not his fault. The powder was not very fine. But it will be better, nice, when the powders are very, very finely pulverized. What other products do you recommend? That you want me, I shall give you. The one on leg that you put that neem oil. That cleared up that cut in two days. Yes. Where is that neem ointment? He was in a car accident in Mauritius, and he got a big cut on his leg, big cut, and then Prabhupāda invented this medicine, cured it in two days. Any cut, any ulcer, it is very . . . (indistinct) You can use for ulcer? No, any . . . Oh, cut, ulceration, cut. How much royalty do we pay you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (laughs) It's gone a bit moldy on the top again. Fifty percent. It's gone a little moldy on the top again, Underneath it's all right, though. No, we shall do it nicely. This looks different. What is this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Salt? No, it is simply neem leaf. Just neem leaf. Neem leaf boiled in ghee. This is not the same. It was not properly done. No. I asked Pālikā. It was very good that other time. It was completely merged in the ghee, and it was very nice. I cooked it for three hours. The water portion should be abolished. Then it will not go, not bad. If the water portion is . . .? Abolished. The secret is cooking it for a long time. Yes, yes, of course, it should be dry. Then it won't go bad. Three hours. If the water portion remains, it will decompose. Do you have to use ghee? Can't we use some oil? Oh, yes, you can use vaseline. Ghee is better, but vaseline you can use. Vaseline is available. I think you are not manufacturing vaseline? Yes, Iran. *Because vaseline is one of the by*-product of petrol. They have olive oil and that here. No olive oil. Vaseline will be very cheap here. And you can, if you want to engage him, if he wants to do something, that Praṇava, let him supply neem leaves, dry, from Vṛndāvana. If he actually wants some money, let him do some business. Let him collect all neem leaves and give him twenty percent profit. Suppose he collects neem, collects and dry it, and then packs it and dispatch. The cost of . . . Shipping and dipatching. The cost of dispatching, we give him twenty percent for him. Some arrangement he may make some profit. Honest business. Not that by cheating get something. That is not good. If he wants money, let him take. Have you had your massage, Śrīla Prabhupāda? No, I'll come back and do. We have to leave soon. We have to leave soon, in fifteen minutes. Yes, I can go. I can . . . give me ten minutes. I am prepared. Ten minutes. So we can get ready to go. Oh, yes. And we can get these formulas from you later. Yes. Jaya . Many things toilet and medicines and . . . we can give. We will like that very much. Let them be engaged in different ways and earn some money. This incense I taught Gargamuni first. Yes. This is better than incense. You teach us the incense also, everything. We will do it. Incense, I first of all taught Gargamuni. The starting was there in New York. Do you know that? And now it has developed very nice. The largest in the world. So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like us to . . . we have . . . this temple has some dakṣiṇā for you. How would you like me to do it? Give you . . . I mean today is Thursday. Would you like it in what form? Would you like us to invest it for you here, or give you the cash? *If you give me interest, eighteen percent, I'll utilize it for Māyāpur*-Vṛndāvana. I shall . . . yes, that's fine. So we can . . . No, purchase one small book, like passbook. So you become my banker; I deposit with you. You receive it and send the interest, that's all. I will be glad to . . . fine. I make you banker. That's all. There is no botheration. You become banker, you send the interest. Now how you are utilizing, you know; I don't bother. But if I get the interest, then I think it is all right. Jaya . Eighteen percent you'll have. What is it? Is it all right? Simple? Yes. So just purchase one small passbook. And . . . you have got that passbook? Or you . . .? No, I know. I shall do it. I will do it. We will put in this bank book, your account, two thousand dollars now, today. And I'll give you some foreign exchange. Give him. Whatever you give, I will put in that account. Give that cash money. Yes. And you will get eighteen percent interest. You want it on a monthly? Yearly? How do you like? Monthly, no yearly. Those Travelers Cheques there? Travelers Cheques I'll keep now. It may be required. (indistinct background conversation between devotees about packing and money throughout) And monthly to India or to America? India, or America. Because America is cheaper. Because if I send it to India, if small amounts go . . . So you send to America. To America is all right? I send it every month to Rāmeśvara. Los Angeles, yes. For deposited in account number I will give you. We will go and we will take care of all this this afternoon. *All right. Keep it now. We are going. We shall come back, and then later on. After coming back we shall give him. (noise of packing) Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yat dadāsi tat kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam ( BG 9.27). (break) It took two weeks to make. Two weeks? Why? Because the ingredients were not . . .? No, because your mustard oil, no one liked to taste it. And then you changed it to mustard seeds. Yes. And then glycerin. Mustard seed also can be exported from India. In the Mathurā district there is sufficient mustard seed. Hmm. Those yellow mustard seeds. Yes. Mustard seeds and instead of chalk powder we mix neem powder. Mustard seed, neem powder. Calcium carbonate. And salt. Calcium carbonate means . . .? Oh, calcium . . . instead of calcium carbonate, let it be neem. It will be very effective. I think the taste will be horrible. Yes, taste will be . . . (laughter) No one will use it. Yes, that is also . . . I saw they make this other toothpaste with sucrose. The second biggest ingredient is sucrose on the karmī toothpaste. Sucrose? What is that sucrose? Sucrose, you know, sucrose and glucose and lactose, those sugars. They use sugar powder, sucrose. Oh, sacrose. Sacrose, yes. Saccharin and sacrose. Saccharin is sugar product. It's like a sweetener but not . . . We tried that, too, the first time, with those saccharin. No, that is no good. That was not good. Salt is available very easily. And they use hard soap powder in these powdered ones. We tried that first with the hard soap powder? They use that also. No, in this latest we shouldn't do it. Latest only simple three things, that's all. That is good. That has come out nice. Menthol, pine oil, camphor, oil of wintergreen, glycerin, mustard powder, powdered salt and calcium carbonate. Oh, yes. Good memory, yes. These are the things. You put all that in the last batch? Yep. In Durban, I think. In Bombay we made this last one. No, that big batch last I made in Sanand. When you went to that Sanand, above Ahmedabad, where that king had his palace, we stayed in that palace. That's when I made that big batch. But first it was developed in Durban. Durban, yes. Because there was no possibility of using datur . My teeth broken, and it became painful, it was not working. Therefore I invented. But it is effective. You said on account of this toothpaste . . . your teeth were so rotten they want to fall out, but the toothpaste won't allow 'em. *Yes, actually my teeth have gone all bad. It is useless. But on account of this toothpaste it is still working. (laughs) Otherwise, according to dental science, it has to be extracted. It is no other remedy. If you go to a dentist, immediately he will say: "Extract all this and have a new set, artificial." That is, I know that. But I don't want to extract. As far as possible, use them and let them fall down automatically, as they have already fallen down so many. Fifty percent already fallen down, and twenty*-five percent are shaking, and still I am eating. Otherwise, according to the dental science, I should not eat any solid food. In Bengal there is a word that when the teeth is gone, then your eating is gone. You cannot digest, you cannot eat. It is not . . . if the foodstuff is not properly chewed, it causes digestive disturbance. Indigestion. Indigestion. And digestive disturbance means so many diseases. And this coughing is due to digestive disturbance. I know that. That's because liver's not working, or . . .? *No. Yes. It is old man's disease. Liver does not work nicely, teeth does not work nicely, there is susceptibility to cold. Old age. All my young friends, they have all died. Nobody's living. One or two still. You know that Dinanath came? I think you know. He's living. He's seventy*-five, seventy-six. Little younger than me. Who's that? Dinanath Mishra in Calcutta. One man, a case pleader. That very thin man? Oh, I know. Yes. He was very sick, actually, when we were there. Yes, he was sick. He was half dead. What about those people when we went back to where you used to live? When we came back from Māyāpur and we went out that night to . . . what do you call? Your old friend's house? Oh, Mulliks. Mulliks. They are just like my younger brothers. Their elder brothers were contemporaries. They are all died. Finished. *They are younger. They are all my childhood playmates. Their older brothers, the eldest one was my very, very intimate friend, Siddhesvar Mullik. We used to ride on the same perambulator when we were three, four years old. And Ratha*-yātrā ceremony was performed with all these guests. They were about, in our neighborhood, there were four, five houses. So all the children of the same age, I was the leader. (laughs) Yes. I organized this Ratha-yātrā. I was performing Rādhāṣṭamī, Janmāṣṭamī, and I was learning how to dress the Rādhā-Govinda. Yes. You used to go in and dress Them? It is, actually, it was our house. Just three, four house after. *Rādhā*-Govinda were the only Deities in the neighborhood, or . . .? *No, only Deity, yes. And Rādhā*-Govinda has big property. In front of the Deity house there is a very big building. Just across the road? That one? Yes, just opposite. That is His building. Very good income. Besides that, He has many other lands. They have got very good income. They're very well looked after. Huh? They're very nicely looked after. Yes. They are one of the oldest aristocratic families of Calcutta, Mulliks. The whole, from Howrah Bridge up to that street, all belongs to their property. Very rich men. Now they don't own so much. No, the Deity has got income. So they have got terms for worshiping the Deity. So one who gets the term for worshiping, he takes the income. Oh, in the family members. *Yes. But practically that is now their income. The more one gets the worshiping term longer, he gets more income. (laughs) The Deity has got very, very good income. All the temples in India . . . just like I am trying to make some fund for Vṛndāvana and Māyāpur. Even no contribution comes, it will go on. The sevā*-pūjā will not stop for want of money. So there will be no want of money. Still, I must make some provision, by the income the sevā-pūjā will go on. Contribution may come or not. That provision should be made. Now in Vṛndāvana Akṣayānanda is collecting and so many ways. Suppose nobody collects. That does not mean this temple will be closed. It must go on. So I am trying to make some provision from that bank interest, at least five to ten thousand rupees so that the Deity worship will not be stopped. That is the system in all Indian temples. It must go on. Nitya-sevā . It must go on. These big, big temple in Vṛndāvana, they have got such arrangement. Otherwise how it is going on for five hundred, six hundred years? They have very good income. Govindajī has got eighteen thousand rupees monthly income. That is . . . He's the richest Deity in Vṛndāvana. And Raṅganātha is tenant of Govindajī. Land is taken from Govindajī, and Raṅganātha's temple is constructed. The Raṅganātha's temple management pays the rent. So Govindajī is the landlord and Raṅganāthajī is tenant. (laughter) Raṅganāthajī is Rāmānuja-sampradāya, Govindajī is Gauḍīya-sampradāya. (laughter) So Rāmānuja-sampradāya is the tenant of Gauḍīya-sampradāya. (break) . . . government is looting? You want to come . . . (indistinct) . . .? Everybody's coming? I guess so. No, as many as we want. Why? (end) Arrival -- August 13, 1976, Bombay (in car and at temple) *The whole thing is being done in one week. I just got the whole text from Nirañjana on Sunday from England. We've got it composed, it is going into printing tomorrow. it will be ready by Vyāsa*-Pūjā. It's a Hindi Back to Godhead on Janmāṣṭamī . . . Nirañjana is helping to translate it? *Yes, and he's the most reliable. The others I find are not reliable. Even with Yaśomatīnandana, I give him a book, it gets stuck for three months. But now we are moving very fast. The first Hindi Back to Godhead we printed up forty*-five thousand; *it is sold. So I'm reprinting thirty thousand more in Delhi, and in Bombay we are producing a new Back to Godhead with thirty thousand first print. Forty*-five thousand of first printing is almost sold. People can't believe it. Even Hitsaran Sharma couldn't believe it that we distributed forty-five thousand Hindi magazines in two months. We are distributing millions in English. We got a new import permit to import books worth five lakhs . I think I wrote that to you. And also the government is going to let us . . . I saw your wife in New York. Yes. She's in Dallas now. Also the government's going to give us permission to import paper now, and I have already arranged to get samples of Japanese paper. So this will make our quality very good. The government likes our printing in India. So that's why they gave me this new license. Because I said: "As we import and sell, we print more in India," so they like that. What is the temperature here? Temperature? (to driver) What's the temperature, about? *Outside? Twenty*-nine degrees. *Twenty*-nine degrees. What? *Twenty*-nine degrees. What's that? Centigrade. Centigrade. *It is about ninety*-five. Ninety, ninety-five. *Ninety*-five! *Ninety, ninety*-five. How was it in Iran? Nice. Iran night, very nice. I was there a year ago. I've gone to Tehran. In the morning also it is very nice. Do you go on the morning walk now, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard? No, not . . . Prabhupāda can't climb up stairs. Once he goes upstairs then he'll stay. What about the lift here? The lift will not be ready till . . . your apartment will not be ready till December or January. They can't do it any sooner. If Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to stay somewhere else, we can find out from people where, who have got lift. Otherwise, I was thinking we have vacant that old flat of Menon on the ground floor. I discussed it with Girirāja, and I just wanted to . . . I was waiting for you. If you like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can convert. That is construction office. We can move the construction office somewhere else, and we can give you that whole flat on the ground floor. Girirāja and I both thought it was a good idea, but I just wanted your approval. We can do that in half a day. It is right on the ground floor. That would be very nice. Small. Yes, but it is on the ground floor. That's the only advantage. In Vṛndāvana the guesthouse is all completely renovated. S. K. Samani came from Bombay, I showed him around Vṛndāvana, and he booked thirty rooms for ten days in September and October. Oh, it's first class. Mr. S. K. Samani? S. K. Samani, yes, Shri Krishna Samani. He liked it very much. Now the government has kept two policemen outside our Vṛndāvana temple to control the traffic, there is so much traffic. The policemen told me that we get even more people than Bankibihārī. But I don't think it's a fact, but the policemen say the crowd is bigger than Bankibihārī. Should I take it around the gate? (indistinct conversation in Hindi)(sounds of traffic) *Also a lot of people are coming to the Delhi temple. The Maharani of Jaipur comes every second day. She is the daughter*-in-law of the Maharani Gayatridevi. Everyone, lot of these . . . many people are coming every day to our temple in Delhi. What about Hyderabad? Hyderabad will be ready. I was there last week. It will be ready in time. The chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is coming as the chief guest on the day the temple will be opened. We are getting very good bungalow in Ahmedabad. Six bedroom with six baths, all marble. But we don't have any devotees there. What will we do? There are eight devotees at least. They have to vacate in any case. They have to go. (break) . . . news stands also. Yaśomatīnandana has made some arrangement with some distributor. Newsstand? Yes, through news, where they sell newspapers and all. *They distribute about fifteen hundred on Ratha*-yātrā day. Fifteen hundred on . . .? *Ratha*-yātrā in Ahmedabad. Now we are distributing these books for one rupee each or 1.50 in Vṛndāvana, because now we've got the cost of printing down to sixty paisa . . . *Our Ratha*-yātrā in New York was very successful. Yes, I saw in the New York Times. I went to the American Embassy in Delhi, and I saw "East Meets West," that was the heading, and there were picture, and Daily News had it on the first page. Middle page. First page. Center pages. Three chariots, very gorgeous. It's due to your causeless mercy this is spreading everywhere. There were hundreds of orders from libraries. Actually, we cannot even keep up, there are so many orders coming. Every order has been dispatched, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There's not one order outstanding, but we are getting lot of correspondence, everything. That's why . . . and I spoke to Rāmeśvara two nights ago, he's shipping the books right away. Because we only got the sea. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, first our application for import of books was rejected. Then I went and met this very big man and preached to him. So now he's become a devotee and he said: "You just come to me. I'll give you in one day whatever you want." Ācchā . So he gave the import license for five lakhs in one day, he gave, and he also told me how to import paper. From the other side? Port number five? Yes, doesn't matter. Anywhere. He also told us how to import paper. Gave some hint. Yes, I gave him some books. I meet him regularly now, when I meet him. He'll come to see you in Delhi he said. He's the Joint Chief Controller of Imports and Exports, very high position. So he has the final authority for giving licenses up to one lakh . He said he could give it to us. What is the political position here? (break) . . . big celebration here starting tomorrow to the 18th. P. K. Savant—he came to see you last year, the president of Maharashtra Pradesh Congress Committee—he is the chief guest. Mr. Pagay, another, he is the minister from Maharashtra, he's also coming. Very big program. It's being advertised all over Bombay. So raining stopped here? For three days stopped, sir. Otherwise, it was very heavy. It's monsoon, it will still rain. Throughout whole Europe there is not a drop of water. Yes. They're getting suffering now. All, no cloud. In France I read in the paper that the river was the lowest . . . (break) *(at temple) . . . (prema*-dhvani prayers) Thank you very much. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. So when you have come? Everything all right? Hyderabad will be complete. If there is any prasāda for distribution? Is there any prasādam for distribution? It's coming. You are taking so much trouble. It's a pleasure Ashnanijī's helping us a lot now. He is the cause of this site. Unless he would not help, it was practically lost. I know that. Two, three hours how we finished that sales agreement. Customs did not open that day anyway. Oh, that's right. We are always traveling. They should give us some concession. Every time we get checked. Actually, the government should have given us the best facilities because I am distributing India's culture all over the world. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Unfortunately, I am not receiving encouragement from the leaders and the authorities. This is India's glory. History will say. ( prasādam arrives) Give it. Yes, you can . . . Pass it out. All people are responding all over the world. They . . . money, men, strength, everything they are supplying. But we are not getting very good encouragement from India. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that every Indian should become guru and preach the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. *This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . and people are hankering after receiving this instruction. Unfortunately, the so*-called svāmīs, yogīs , they are going . . . or even politicians, they are not presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Anyway, so long I live I shall go on struggling like this. That's all. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Nitāi, when you are coming? I came just two days ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Everything is all right? Yes, everything is fine. So, now you can disperse. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . Take prasādam and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. And we have now nice buildings. Live here peacefully, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās . This is my success. If I see that you are living very nicely, chanting very nicely, then all my labor is successful. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So if all the devotees would like to leave now, then Prabhupāda can rest a little bit from traveling. You can distribute prasādam in the hall. Oh, you are older than me. Older Your blessings . . . (indistinct Hindi) Live peacefully, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is for you, so many buildings. Let devotees come, live here peacefully, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That I want. There's a lot of devotees visiting Bombay. How many devotees? On a permanent basis about forty, but there are a few from different centers. *(referring to Vyāsa*-pūjā book) Where you have received this? Ṛṣabhadeva, president of Spiritual Sky Products. President of . . .? Spiritual Sky in Los Angeles. He has come on a business trip. They were trying to negotiate buying incense sticks from Mysore, sandalwood, and Bangalore. So they are . . . did you get those color proofs I sent you of Bhāgavata ? Did you like? It's coming out quite nicely. Not as good as . . . not as good as foreign. It's not as good as foreign? That is . . . I replied you. But we are going to be printing the softbound book for seven rupees. All right, we shall talk later on. Now let me . . . Maybe somebody could take these flowers and put them in vases. (indistinct talking in background) All the pictures have a garland. Still you . . . Distribute it? (chuckling) So you have come. It is good. Would you like to take some fruit now? I'll tell you. Not now. Haribol . (offers obeisances) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything came in and nothing is on any passport. All right, that's all right. Oh, you had the key. Does the Dictaphone work? All right, you take the keys back. The Dictaphone. . . . (indistinct) Just one second. If you can open it I can . . . or just pass it to me and I'll open it. That projector also there? Projector? No, there was no projector. No, no. That was Ātreya Ṛṣi's. Yes, we should have many of those in India. First class. They're so marvelous. This is a desk. Do you have the almirah key? This is almirah . Prabhupāda's bedroom almirah somehow got out here, or is that the office almirah ? Which almirah ? Which almirah ? The sitting room, it says. This one, I think. Maybe it's not. I can go check on that. They weren't labeled when we were here, they were labeled a long time afterwards. This is not for this. This is the cash box. This one has two keys, Hari-śauri. They say "one" and "two." This is not it. This is the key for the inside. This is not this key. It's this one. This is it. They all fell off the hoop. Oh. Do you have the key to these two almirahs out here? There's some keys that we didn't know where they fitted. So, how are you? Fine. Everything is going? Yes, very nicely. And the lift is . . . oh! Hare Kṛṣṇa. Lift is not available. They're all here now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There was one key that dropped off the hoop. There's one, two, and the small cash box inside. This is the cash box key. For this box. What are these keys? This, this . . . Oh, how he can know? He had one key, I think, for one of these. I don't have. Keep in the bag everything. Yes, they're all in the bag there somewhere. A couple weren't labeled. This is here. Everything all right? Very comfortable journey? There was weather? (chuckles) There was no water. All over Europe there is no cloud, no water. No water? No water. Big drought. They just had to close the factories in Wales because there's no water now. It's a reaction to their sinful activities. It will be increasing throughout the whole world. Anāvṛṣṭi . They think it's just happening by chance. *Godless civilization. Sinful activities. The reaction will increase—no rainfall, scarcity of food grains, and government taxes. These are written in Bhāgavata. Anāvṛṣṭi*-durbhikṣa kara-pīḍitāḥ (SB 12.2.9). Government will exact tax more and more. There was a scientific study done by the CIA in America, this study done by the CIA on world weather conditions. And they concluded that the world weather conditions will only get worse and worse. There's going to be drought every three, four years, and so there will not be food production. It is predicted in the Bhāgavata five thousand years ago. Yes. They're having earthquakes in China now. Yes, big ones. They say a million people died in the last one. You have got the keys for that? I think they're . . . that last set that I gave you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? These, yes. Now print books many, as good as possible, and distribute. Let us do our duty. We have three small Hindi books in production, plus as I said, Hindi Back to Godhead. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Oh. This silver loṭā has become very black. You can get it polished. See if there is . . . If there's . . .? If there is worms. I was just looking in the corners. There's some spiders, I think, and there's some signs again of worms. Some powdered remains and things like that. So we shall . . . So I think if we do it once more then it should be finished. *I come from Tanzania, Dar*-es-Salaam. That's in Africa. Yes. And we are the Life Member of ISKCON. You know Navayogendra dāsa of Nairobi? Now he is transferred in Mombassa. Navayogendra, yes. Yes, he came there between 1975 or 1974 and he made us the member. He's now in Mombassa. Ācchā . So when you have come here? When have you come here? Here? We just came for a holiday trip. Where you are staying? In Malad. So come tomorrow at five. At five. Do you have the Hare Kṛṣṇa Cookbook ? Ask him . . . If you like, go out there now and see Girirāja. He's the president. He'll fix you up. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Get some prasādam when you go. Yes. So cleanse this. This spittoon? They . . . oh. They've put one here, actually. This is the bathing loṭā , but there's one here also. Oh, they used this for bathing your feet. This is a new loṭā for drinking until . . . I'll clean this silver one. (long pause) This is spittoon? Yes. (break) So? What fruit you have got? I'll go and check. Ask somebody to call Saurabha. Yes. What is this? Some sweet one girl has made here. Not everyone should make. She is initiated? Yes. I will generally make, but I just arrived today, so there was not time. (pause) (end) Arrival -- August 13, 1976, Bombay (in car and at temple) *The whole thing is being done in one week. I just got the whole text from Nirañjana on Sunday from England. We've got it composed, it is going into printing tomorrow. it will be ready by Vyāsa*-Pūjā. It's a Hindi Back to Godhead on Janmāṣṭamī . . . Nirañjana is helping to translate it? *Yes, and he's the most reliable. The others I find are not reliable. Even with Yaśomatīnandana, I give him a book, it gets stuck for three months. But now we are moving very fast. The first Hindi Back to Godhead we printed up forty*-five thousand; *it is sold. So I'm reprinting thirty thousand more in Delhi, and in Bombay we are producing a new Back to Godhead with thirty thousand first print. Forty*-five thousand of first printing is almost sold. People can't believe it. Even Hitsaran Sharma couldn't believe it that we distributed forty-five thousand Hindi magazines in two months. We are distributing millions in English. We got a new import permit to import books worth five lakhs . I think I wrote that to you. And also the government is going to let us . . . I saw your wife in New York. Yes. She's in Dallas now. Also the government's going to give us permission to import paper now, and I have already arranged to get samples of Japanese paper. So this will make our quality very good. The government likes our printing in India. So that's why they gave me this new license. Because I said: "As we import and sell, we print more in India," so they like that. What is the temperature here? Temperature? (to driver) What's the temperature, about? *Outside? Twenty*-nine degrees. *Twenty*-nine degrees. What? *Twenty*-nine degrees. What's that? Centigrade. Centigrade. *It is about ninety*-five. Ninety, ninety-five. *Ninety*-five! *Ninety, ninety*-five. How was it in Iran? Nice. Iran night, very nice. I was there a year ago. I've gone to Tehran. In the morning also it is very nice. Do you go on the morning walk now, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard? No, not . . . Prabhupāda can't climb up stairs. Once he goes upstairs then he'll stay. What about the lift here? The lift will not be ready till . . . your apartment will not be ready till December or January. They can't do it any sooner. If Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to stay somewhere else, we can find out from people where, who have got lift. Otherwise, I was thinking we have vacant that old flat of Menon on the ground floor. I discussed it with Girirāja, and I just wanted to . . . I was waiting for you. If you like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can convert. That is construction office. We can move the construction office somewhere else, and we can give you that whole flat on the ground floor. Girirāja and I both thought it was a good idea, but I just wanted your approval. We can do that in half a day. It is right on the ground floor. That would be very nice. Small. Yes, but it is on the ground floor. That's the only advantage. In Vṛndāvana the guesthouse is all completely renovated. S. K. Samani came from Bombay, I showed him around Vṛndāvana, and he booked thirty rooms for ten days in September and October. Oh, it's first class. Mr. S. K. Samani? S. K. Samani, yes, Shri Krishna Samani. He liked it very much. Now the government has kept two policemen outside our Vṛndāvana temple to control the traffic, there is so much traffic. The policemen told me that we get even more people than Bankibihārī. But I don't think it's a fact, but the policemen say the crowd is bigger than Bankibihārī. Should I take it around the gate? (indistinct conversation in Hindi)(sounds of traffic) *Also a lot of people are coming to the Delhi temple. The Maharani of Jaipur comes every second day. She is the daughter*-in-law of the Maharani Gayatridevi. Everyone, lot of these . . . many people are coming every day to our temple in Delhi. What about Hyderabad? Hyderabad will be ready. I was there last week. It will be ready in time. The chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is coming as the chief guest on the day the temple will be opened. We are getting very good bungalow in Ahmedabad. Six bedroom with six baths, all marble. But we don't have any devotees there. What will we do? There are eight devotees at least. They have to vacate in any case. They have to go. (break) . . . news stands also. Yaśomatīnandana has made some arrangement with some distributor. Newsstand? Yes, through news, where they sell newspapers and all. *They distribute about fifteen hundred on Ratha*-yātrā day. Fifteen hundred on . . .? *Ratha*-yātrā in Ahmedabad. Now we are distributing these books for one rupee each or 1.50 in Vṛndāvana, because now we've got the cost of printing down to sixty paisa . . . *Our Ratha*-yātrā in New York was very successful. Yes, I saw in the New York Times. I went to the American Embassy in Delhi, and I saw "East Meets West," that was the heading, and there were picture, and Daily News had it on the first page. Middle page. First page. Center pages. Three chariots, very gorgeous. It's due to your causeless mercy this is spreading everywhere. There were hundreds of orders from libraries. Actually, we cannot even keep up, there are so many orders coming. Every order has been dispatched, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There's not one order outstanding, but we are getting lot of correspondence, everything. That's why . . . and I spoke to Rāmeśvara two nights ago, he's shipping the books right away. Because we only got the sea. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, first our application for import of books was rejected. Then I went and met this very big man and preached to him. So now he's become a devotee and he said: "You just come to me. I'll give you in one day whatever you want." Ācchā . So he gave the import license for five lakhs in one day, he gave, and he also told me how to import paper. From the other side? Port number five? Yes, doesn't matter. Anywhere. He also told us how to import paper. Gave some hint. Yes, I gave him some books. I meet him regularly now, when I meet him. He'll come to see you in Delhi he said. He's the Joint Chief Controller of Imports and Exports, very high position. So he has the final authority for giving licenses up to one lakh . He said he could give it to us. What is the political position here? (break) . . . big celebration here starting tomorrow to the 18th. P. K. Savant—he came to see you last year, the president of Maharashtra Pradesh Congress Committee—he is the chief guest. Mr. Pagay, another, he is the minister from Maharashtra, he's also coming. Very big program. It's being advertised all over Bombay. So raining stopped here? For three days stopped, sir. Otherwise, it was very heavy. It's monsoon, it will still rain. Throughout whole Europe there is not a drop of water. Yes. They're getting suffering now. All, no cloud. In France I read in the paper that the river was the lowest . . . (break) *(at temple) . . . (prema*-dhvani prayers) Thank you very much. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. So when you have come? Everything all right? Hyderabad will be complete. If there is any prasāda for distribution? Is there any prasādam for distribution? It's coming. You are taking so much trouble. It's a pleasure Ashnanijī's helping us a lot now. He is the cause of this site. Unless he would not help, it was practically lost. I know that. Two, three hours how we finished that sales agreement. Customs did not open that day anyway. Oh, that's right. We are always traveling. They should give us some concession. Every time we get checked. Actually, the government should have given us the best facilities because I am distributing India's culture all over the world. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Unfortunately, I am not receiving encouragement from the leaders and the authorities. This is India's glory. History will say. ( prasādam arrives) Give it. Yes, you can . . . Pass it out. All people are responding all over the world. They . . . money, men, strength, everything they are supplying. But we are not getting very good encouragement from India. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that every Indian should become guru and preach the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. *This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . and people are hankering after receiving this instruction. Unfortunately, the so*-called svāmīs, yogīs , they are going . . . or even politicians, they are not presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Anyway, so long I live I shall go on struggling like this. That's all. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Nitāi, when you are coming? I came just two days ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Everything is all right? Yes, everything is fine. So, now you can disperse. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . Take prasādam and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. And we have now nice buildings. Live here peacefully, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās . This is my success. If I see that you are living very nicely, chanting very nicely, then all my labor is successful. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So if all the devotees would like to leave now, then Prabhupāda can rest a little bit from traveling. You can distribute prasādam in the hall. Oh, you are older than me. Older Your blessings . . . (indistinct Hindi) Live peacefully, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is for you, so many buildings. Let devotees come, live here peacefully, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That I want. There's a lot of devotees visiting Bombay. How many devotees? On a permanent basis about forty, but there are a few from different centers. *(referring to Vyāsa*-pūjā book) Where you have received this? Ṛṣabhadeva, president of Spiritual Sky Products. President of . . .? Spiritual Sky in Los Angeles. He has come on a business trip. They were trying to negotiate buying incense sticks from Mysore, sandalwood, and Bangalore. So they are . . . did you get those color proofs I sent you of Bhāgavata ? Did you like? It's coming out quite nicely. Not as good as . . . not as good as foreign. It's not as good as foreign? That is . . . I replied you. But we are going to be printing the softbound book for seven rupees. All right, we shall talk later on. Now let me . . . Maybe somebody could take these flowers and put them in vases. (indistinct talking in background) All the pictures have a garland. Still you . . . Distribute it? (chuckling) So you have come. It is good. Would you like to take some fruit now? I'll tell you. Not now. Haribol . (offers obeisances) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything came in and nothing is on any passport. All right, that's all right. Oh, you had the key. Does the Dictaphone work? All right, you take the keys back. The Dictaphone. . . . (indistinct) Just one second. If you can open it I can . . . or just pass it to me and I'll open it. That projector also there? Projector? No, there was no projector. No, no. That was Ātreya Ṛṣi's. Yes, we should have many of those in India. First class. They're so marvelous. This is a desk. Do you have the almirah key? This is almirah . Prabhupāda's bedroom almirah somehow got out here, or is that the office almirah ? Which almirah ? Which almirah ? The sitting room, it says. This one, I think. Maybe it's not. I can go check on that. They weren't labeled when we were here, they were labeled a long time afterwards. This is not for this. This is the cash box. This one has two keys, Hari-śauri. They say "one" and "two." This is not it. This is the key for the inside. This is not this key. It's this one. This is it. They all fell off the hoop. Oh. Do you have the key to these two almirahs out here? There's some keys that we didn't know where they fitted. So, how are you? Fine. Everything is going? Yes, very nicely. And the lift is . . . oh! Hare Kṛṣṇa. Lift is not available. They're all here now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There was one key that dropped off the hoop. There's one, two, and the small cash box inside. This is the cash box key. For this box. What are these keys? This, this . . . Oh, how he can know? He had one key, I think, for one of these. I don't have. Keep in the bag everything. Yes, they're all in the bag there somewhere. A couple weren't labeled. This is here. Everything all right? Very comfortable journey? There was weather? (chuckles) There was no water. All over Europe there is no cloud, no water. No water? No water. Big drought. They just had to close the factories in Wales because there's no water now. It's a reaction to their sinful activities. It will be increasing throughout the whole world. Anāvṛṣṭi . They think it's just happening by chance. *Godless civilization. Sinful activities. The reaction will increase—no rainfall, scarcity of food grains, and government taxes. These are written in Bhāgavata. Anāvṛṣṭi*-durbhikṣa kara-pīḍitāḥ (SB 12.2.9). Government will exact tax more and more. There was a scientific study done by the CIA in America, this study done by the CIA on world weather conditions. And they concluded that the world weather conditions will only get worse and worse. There's going to be drought every three, four years, and so there will not be food production. It is predicted in the Bhāgavata five thousand years ago. Yes. They're having earthquakes in China now. Yes, big ones. They say a million people died in the last one. You have got the keys for that? I think they're . . . that last set that I gave you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? These, yes. Now print books many, as good as possible, and distribute. Let us do our duty. We have three small Hindi books in production, plus as I said, Hindi Back to Godhead. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Oh. This silver loṭā has become very black. You can get it polished. See if there is . . . If there's . . .? If there is worms. I was just looking in the corners. There's some spiders, I think, and there's some signs again of worms. Some powdered remains and things like that. So we shall . . . So I think if we do it once more then it should be finished. *I come from Tanzania, Dar*-es-Salaam. That's in Africa. Yes. And we are the Life Member of ISKCON. You know Navayogendra dāsa of Nairobi? Now he is transferred in Mombassa. Navayogendra, yes. Yes, he came there between 1975 or 1974 and he made us the member. He's now in Mombassa. Ācchā . So when you have come here? When have you come here? Here? We just came for a holiday trip. Where you are staying? In Malad. So come tomorrow at five. At five. Do you have the Hare Kṛṣṇa Cookbook ? Ask him . . . If you like, go out there now and see Girirāja. He's the president. He'll fix you up. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Get some prasādam when you go. Yes. So cleanse this. This spittoon? They . . . oh. They've put one here, actually. This is the bathing loṭā , but there's one here also. Oh, they used this for bathing your feet. This is a new loṭā for drinking until . . . I'll clean this silver one. (long pause) This is spittoon? Yes. (break) So? What fruit you have got? I'll go and check. Ask somebody to call Saurabha. Yes. What is this? Some sweet one girl has made here. Not everyone should make. She is initiated? Yes. I will generally make, but I just arrived today, so there was not time. (pause) (end) Conversation A -- August 14, 1976, Bombay So they were not crying very loudly, but the grandfather inquired, "So why there is . . . it appears there is some great suffering?" So my father's eldest brother, he inquired, "Is your mother dead?" I consider like that. No, no . . . (indistinct) . . . "So I am also dead." He died later on. Next day. Hmm. He simply inquired, "I think your mother is dead." They said: "No, no." "No, I am also going to," and he died. . . . (indistinct) These things are not very wonderful. From spiritual point of view this has no meaning. This is worldly affection. It is worldly affection. That is not very good asset for spiritual life. Āsakti . One has to give up āsakti . That is the process, renouncement. Voluntarily. *Anāsakta*-manaḥ . Yes. Our Vedic process is that at a certain age you must retire from family life. Voluntary, forceful, giving up association. Even there is worship . . . (indistinct) Yes. So these are āsaktis . This husband and wife dying together, it is . . . (indistinct) . . . because āsakti is there. That āsakti will help him, that the wife will become a husband next life, and the husband will become wife next. And in that way they'll have to take birth again. Soul has got no sex. *Karma*-bandha . *Karma*-bandha and jīva . Find out this verse, Fifth Canto, Fifth Chapter. Karmātmakaṁ yena ? *Ah, śarīra*-bandha. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam, yāvat mano vai karma . . .? Bandha . "As long as one does not inquire about the spiritual values of life, one is defeated and subjected to miseries arising from ignorance. Be it sinful or pious, karma has its resultant actions. If a person is engaged in any kind of karma , his mind is called karmātmaka: colored with fruitive activity. As long as the mind is impure, consciousness is unclear. And as long as one is absorbed in fruitive activity, he has to accept a material body." That's all. Lābh wahi hogā. (That is the only result.) The woman will become man and the man will become woman. So long you are taking birth . . . What action you have got? Before that the verse is, So this body is temporary, but it is very miserable. That they do not understand. *Kuṇape tri*-dhātuke . That they do not understand. That as soon as you accept a material body, either a very rich man's body or poor man's body or any body, either brahmin's body or śūdra's body, to accept material body means undergo miseries. But you have no choice to accept. By the will of God . . . No, you have got . . . you can become free. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . . . *Bhakti*-avyabhicāriṇī . I have got that tendency, bhakti , avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti . *No, no, simply to know Kṛṣṇa. Māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena ya . . . so you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa without bhakti . Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). So without bhakti-yoga there is no possibility to understand Kṛṣṇa. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you'll become free from this process of accepting material body. *Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). *Yes. This is the only business, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and avoid this botheration of repeating body, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is there. If you want to stop dehāntara-prāptiḥ , then you have to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no other way. But if you think that it is very pleasure to enter within the womb of mother and accept one body, and again come out and again work, and again die and again enter, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19) . . . if you want this business, that is your choice. You can do it. But if you want to stop it, then this is the only way. Therefore śāstra says na sādhu manye . It is not good. Nūnam . Read that verse. *Kleśada āsa dehaḥ. Kleśada , as soon as you get a body, kleśada . May have good doctor friend, but I'll have to suffer. (Dr. Patel laughs) We can get some relief, but suffering is there. Therefore na sādhu manye . It is not good. So people are being trained up to become mad, pramattaḥ . And do anything, bring money. This is the modern civilization. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma . Things which are forbidden, they are doing that. Why? Indriya*-prītaya āpṛṇoti, only for sense gratification. They have no other ambition. Bring money and gratify senses. This is modern civilization. This is the exact explanation— nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Black money, white money, this money, that . . . never mind, bring money. (laughter) By any way. *Yes, this is modern civilization. Big man, big rich man, means bring money some way or other. This is big man. This is Kali*-yuga. Because if you have got money, you have got respect, you have got honor, you have got . . . you are recognized. So therefore they are after money. Bring money, that's all right. When I shall get money, I may have done black money, force money, this money, nobody will remember it. Bās . This is modern civilization. Bring money and enjoy sense. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). What for it is, struggle so much working hard? Yad indriya-prītaya : only for the satisfaction of the senses. They have no other ambition. Because most of them, they do not believe there is next life. Most of them, 99.9 percent, they do not believe. Big, big professor . . . I have talked with so many big, big men in Europe. They have no faith . . . our leaders also. The Munshi, he did not believe in the next life. There is research in parapsychology in certain municipality of India, they have proved that there is rebirth. *That they may do, a very great service, but we know it without going to through psychological process. We believe Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), bās , finished. What is the use of going to the psychology and . . .? But those . . . No, no, those who are fools, they may waste their time in that way. (laughter) But we are not so fool. They are fools to not to think that they'll become . . . *They are rascal fools because they do not take Kṛṣṇa's word. Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Why should we bother? Our mission is simply to propagate Kṛṣṇa's instructions. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't manufacture anything. So-called yoga , so-called meditation, so-called this and . . . we don't care for all this nonsense. Our only business is how to implement the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, the rascals may understand and be happy. That is our mission. We haven't got to manufacture anything. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bās . You simply carry the message of Kṛṣṇa and try to deliver it to anyone you meet. This is our . . . we haven't got to manufacture anything. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Take it. No interpretation. Don't spoil the whole thing. Interpretation means spoiling. Whole thing spoiled. Each man understands according to his own level of understanding. No. Suppose, just like you are medical man, you are giving somebody medicine, you are giving the direction. If he wants to be cured, he must take your direction. Not that somebody comes, "No, no, you can take it this way, you can do this." That is nonsense. That is nonsense. This nonsense we want to stop. Kṛṣṇa is giving the instruction, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12), the Supreme Personality of Godhead. What business you have got to poke your nose and give interpretation? Are you bigger than Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa left it for you? This nonsense going on. Big, big svāmīs , big, big yogīs , big, big politicians, simply misinterpreting, he's spoiling his own life and he's spoiling others. Bās . This is going on. Very serious condition. You are not going to go down now? No. Would you like to go on the terrace, Śrīla Prabhupāda? If I like, I can . . . Abhi upar chalne ka muskil hota hai. (Now it is difficult to walk up.) Chalne ka nahi muskil hota hai . . . (It is not difficult to walk . . .) (indistinct) . . . why I have taken so much trouble? They are already traced out. So we come here. *No, you come and preach. The country is going to hell, the human society is going to hell for misguidance. These rascal leaders, they're going to hell themselves and they're leading others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). These fools and rascals are leading, they are going to hell, and they are taking the followers to the hell. This is going on. Stop this. At least in India. Save. That is real para-upakāra . That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. *Para*-upakāra . Our India is not meant for exploiting others. Doing good to others, that is India's mission. Our teachers, our ācāryas , do not teach us, "Go and exploit others and bring money"—British Empire. This is not India. Even Jesus never taught that. These are the wrong followers. Jesus Christ is different thing than that. I mean to say generally, generally the people, they want to exploit others. It is the greed of the human being. *Yes, but the mission should be, human being should be meant for doing good to others. Para*-upakāra . That para-upakāra spirit is gone on account of losing our own culture. Otherwise, India's culture is para-upakāra . India was open, "Come everyone, learn." Lord Jesus Christ also came here. All the Chinese, learned scholars, they used to come. The history is there. And India was open. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam . This is Indian culture. Even the enemy comes, "Yes, please come, you stay." But later on, they took advantage, "Oh, they are very liberal. Enter there." And still we are liberal, "Please come here, stay here and take prasādam free, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Open to everyone. I shall manage anyway. I shall travel, still I shall lay down my life and bring money. "Come here, stay." Still we are liberal. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). First of all, make your life successful by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then do good to others. *Yesterday, I think, in Tehran, one boy came. He proposed that is it not good to help others? I immediately challenged, "What you have got you can help? What is your asset?" You cannot help. It is simply bogus proposition. If you can help, you can simply help by spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "Sir, I have come to you." "Why?" "To request you that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious." "How?" Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ , "Always think of Me, just become My devotee, offer little obeisances." Anyone can do. A child can do. You cannot do? What is the difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Is there any difficulty? You haven't got to practice any yoga process, pressing your nose or keeping your head or this or that. No. Nothing. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68): "Without any doubt you are coming back to Me." And that is the highest perfection, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). There is no difficulty in preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no difficulty to accept it. And the result is the supreme. These are the people who have no faith. Therefore you have to canvass. They have no faith, I know that. Then why there is necessity of preaching all over the world? They have no faith, it is a fact. And you have to create faith. That is preaching. Padayor nipatya. That Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī: This is preaching. Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, what is that? Kāku-śataṁ padayor nipatya , kāku-śatam kṛtvā, śatam , "I fall down on your feet, and I am flattering you with folded hands." "Why? Why? What do you want to say?" "Yes, I have to say something." "What is that? Say it! Why you are becoming so humble?" "Yes, I have to say." "What? Say it!" He sādhavaḥ , "You are a very nice sādhu . But you forget all nonsense." That's kāku-śatam. *He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya , "Whatever nonsense you have learned, forget." Then what to do? Kāku-śataṁ bravīmi sakalam eva vihāya dūrād caitanya*-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam . "You just become devotee of Lord Caitanya. I am flattering you, I am falling down on your feet"—this is preaching. And what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . .? Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). And if you do that, then what is the result? Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). If one is doing like that, Kṛṣṇa immediately recognizes, "Oh, you are the best friend of Mine." So if you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, then what you want more? You are undergoing so much austerities and . . . to be recognized by God. And God says that "Immediately I recognize you." Whom? One who is doing this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). Immediately. You may be a fool, you may be rascal, you may be illiterate. But if you do this, immediately Kṛṣṇa recognizes. Kṛṣṇa never said that unless one is a big grammarian, big scientist, big politician, big engineer, big doctor, then I recognize. No. Simply one who does this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam . What is that paramaṁ guhyam? Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66): "Give up all nonsense. Surrender to Me." This is paramaṁ guhyam . And they are simply manufacturing nonsense. *So the time is very bad, but nature's law is very strict. We may defy it, "There is no God, there is no next birth, there is no nothing." We may say like that, but when death will come, you cannot say anything. Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). Bās , all your talkings, all your intelligence taken away. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Immediately transferred to another body. Daiva-netreṇa. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). "No, no, I am Prime Minister!" "No, you must become a dog." (laughter) Immediately. How can you protest? You cannot protest. You have acted like dog; *just become a dog. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya. Just like your medical science: you have infected the disease, you must suffer it. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ. Guṇa-saṅgaḥ . There's infection. Only in nirguṇa , a man can become nirguṇa by . . . Eh, don't talk of nirguṇa . First of all (laughter) become a dog. Because the only thing that can bring nirguṇa , then you may stop from getting a dog, if you do the bhakti . That is what I mean. Nirguṇa means bhakti . Nirguṇa means bhakti . Sa guṇān samatītyaitān (BG 14.26). That is nirguṇa . When you are untouched by the three guṇas , then you are nirguṇa . That is not very easy job. Very difficult. That is not easy. *Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati (BG 18.54). Nirguṇa is not so easy thing. This is nirguṇa . Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66). This is nirguṇa . Otherwise, everything sa guṇān , everything sa guṇān . Only fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, nirguṇa. This is . . . so . . . Humara desh me Bhagavad-gītā hai ispar instructions hai, ise cchor chaar karte hai. (There is Bhagavad-gītā in our country. The instructions are all there but they are giving up everything.) They are talking, "Yes, you take Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa." They say it. And they are doing that. Who? *Anyone. Take Mahatma Gandhi. He was so great student of Bhagavad*-gītā . Did he preach kṛṣṇa-bhakti? Bhagavad-gītā minus Kṛṣṇa, this is going on. Yes. Kaṁsa. Kill Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. What is the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? And everyone is preaching like that. Very worse condition of the world, godlessness, and they'll suffer, there is no doubt. Prakṛti is very strong. You can do whatever you like, but kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya , that will act. You may be very proud of your so-called prestigious position, but the kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya . . . puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi . . . (BG 13.22). Find out. *Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . *Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . He has to. He has to. Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān . So we are now put into the material prakṛti , and prakṛti-jān guṇān , we have to accept another body. This is the rascaldom. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Prasādam , you have got? (devotees offer obeisances) What is the report? We are publishing monthly magazine every month now. One is coming out in a few days for Janmāṣṭamī. And we have changed new house, very good house . . . (indistinct) What is the rent? Land also . . . No, no, rent. Rent is thousand rupees. One thousand rupees, plus tax for government. Plus twelve hundred? No, plus two hundred tax. They are Life Members from Ahmedabad. They came to see Your Divine Grace. Oh, thank you. So give them place to stay. So . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) Conversation A -- August 14, 1976, Bombay So they were not crying very loudly, but the grandfather inquired, "So why there is . . . it appears there is some great suffering?" So my father's eldest brother, he inquired, "Is your mother dead?" I consider like that. No, no . . . (indistinct) . . . "So I am also dead." He died later on. Next day. Hmm. He simply inquired, "I think your mother is dead." They said: "No, no." "No, I am also going to," and he died. . . . (indistinct) These things are not very wonderful. From spiritual point of view this has no meaning. This is worldly affection. It is worldly affection. That is not very good asset for spiritual life. Āsakti . One has to give up āsakti . That is the process, renouncement. Voluntarily. *Anāsakta*-manaḥ . Yes. Our Vedic process is that at a certain age you must retire from family life. Voluntary, forceful, giving up association. Even there is worship . . . (indistinct) Yes. So these are āsaktis . This husband and wife dying together, it is . . . (indistinct) . . . because āsakti is there. That āsakti will help him, that the wife will become a husband next life, and the husband will become wife next. And in that way they'll have to take birth again. Soul has got no sex. *Karma*-bandha . *Karma*-bandha and jīva . Find out this verse, Fifth Canto, Fifth Chapter. Karmātmakaṁ yena ? *Ah, śarīra*-bandha. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam, yāvat mano vai karma . . .? Bandha . "As long as one does not inquire about the spiritual values of life, one is defeated and subjected to miseries arising from ignorance. Be it sinful or pious, karma has its resultant actions. If a person is engaged in any kind of karma , his mind is called karmātmaka: colored with fruitive activity. As long as the mind is impure, consciousness is unclear. And as long as one is absorbed in fruitive activity, he has to accept a material body." That's all. Lābh wahi hogā. (That is the only result.) The woman will become man and the man will become woman. So long you are taking birth . . . What action you have got? Before that the verse is, So this body is temporary, but it is very miserable. That they do not understand. *Kuṇape tri*-dhātuke . That they do not understand. That as soon as you accept a material body, either a very rich man's body or poor man's body or any body, either brahmin's body or śūdra's body, to accept material body means undergo miseries. But you have no choice to accept. By the will of God . . . No, you have got . . . you can become free. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . . . *Bhakti*-avyabhicāriṇī . I have got that tendency, bhakti , avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti . *No, no, simply to know Kṛṣṇa. Māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena ya . . . so you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa without bhakti . Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). So without bhakti-yoga there is no possibility to understand Kṛṣṇa. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you'll become free from this process of accepting material body. *Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). *Yes. This is the only business, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and avoid this botheration of repeating body, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is there. If you want to stop dehāntara-prāptiḥ , then you have to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no other way. But if you think that it is very pleasure to enter within the womb of mother and accept one body, and again come out and again work, and again die and again enter, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19) . . . if you want this business, that is your choice. You can do it. But if you want to stop it, then this is the only way. Therefore śāstra says na sādhu manye . It is not good. Nūnam . Read that verse. *Kleśada āsa dehaḥ. Kleśada , as soon as you get a body, kleśada . May have good doctor friend, but I'll have to suffer. (Dr. Patel laughs) We can get some relief, but suffering is there. Therefore na sādhu manye . It is not good. So people are being trained up to become mad, pramattaḥ . And do anything, bring money. This is the modern civilization. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma . Things which are forbidden, they are doing that. Why? Indriya*-prītaya āpṛṇoti, only for sense gratification. They have no other ambition. Bring money and gratify senses. This is modern civilization. This is the exact explanation— nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Black money, white money, this money, that . . . never mind, bring money. (laughter) By any way. *Yes, this is modern civilization. Big man, big rich man, means bring money some way or other. This is big man. This is Kali*-yuga. Because if you have got money, you have got respect, you have got honor, you have got . . . you are recognized. So therefore they are after money. Bring money, that's all right. When I shall get money, I may have done black money, force money, this money, nobody will remember it. Bās . This is modern civilization. Bring money and enjoy sense. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). What for it is, struggle so much working hard? Yad indriya-prītaya : only for the satisfaction of the senses. They have no other ambition. Because most of them, they do not believe there is next life. Most of them, 99.9 percent, they do not believe. Big, big professor . . . I have talked with so many big, big men in Europe. They have no faith . . . our leaders also. The Munshi, he did not believe in the next life. There is research in parapsychology in certain municipality of India, they have proved that there is rebirth. *That they may do, a very great service, but we know it without going to through psychological process. We believe Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), bās , finished. What is the use of going to the psychology and . . .? But those . . . No, no, those who are fools, they may waste their time in that way. (laughter) But we are not so fool. They are fools to not to think that they'll become . . . *They are rascal fools because they do not take Kṛṣṇa's word. Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Why should we bother? Our mission is simply to propagate Kṛṣṇa's instructions. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't manufacture anything. So-called yoga , so-called meditation, so-called this and . . . we don't care for all this nonsense. Our only business is how to implement the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, the rascals may understand and be happy. That is our mission. We haven't got to manufacture anything. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bās . You simply carry the message of Kṛṣṇa and try to deliver it to anyone you meet. This is our . . . we haven't got to manufacture anything. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Take it. No interpretation. Don't spoil the whole thing. Interpretation means spoiling. Whole thing spoiled. Each man understands according to his own level of understanding. No. Suppose, just like you are medical man, you are giving somebody medicine, you are giving the direction. If he wants to be cured, he must take your direction. Not that somebody comes, "No, no, you can take it this way, you can do this." That is nonsense. That is nonsense. This nonsense we want to stop. Kṛṣṇa is giving the instruction, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12), the Supreme Personality of Godhead. What business you have got to poke your nose and give interpretation? Are you bigger than Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa left it for you? This nonsense going on. Big, big svāmīs , big, big yogīs , big, big politicians, simply misinterpreting, he's spoiling his own life and he's spoiling others. Bās . This is going on. Very serious condition. You are not going to go down now? No. Would you like to go on the terrace, Śrīla Prabhupāda? If I like, I can . . . Abhi upar chalne ka muskil hota hai. (Now it is difficult to walk up.) Chalne ka nahi muskil hota hai . . . (It is not difficult to walk . . .) (indistinct) . . . why I have taken so much trouble? They are already traced out. So we come here. *No, you come and preach. The country is going to hell, the human society is going to hell for misguidance. These rascal leaders, they're going to hell themselves and they're leading others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). These fools and rascals are leading, they are going to hell, and they are taking the followers to the hell. This is going on. Stop this. At least in India. Save. That is real para-upakāra . That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. *Para*-upakāra . Our India is not meant for exploiting others. Doing good to others, that is India's mission. Our teachers, our ācāryas , do not teach us, "Go and exploit others and bring money"—British Empire. This is not India. Even Jesus never taught that. These are the wrong followers. Jesus Christ is different thing than that. I mean to say generally, generally the people, they want to exploit others. It is the greed of the human being. *Yes, but the mission should be, human being should be meant for doing good to others. Para*-upakāra . That para-upakāra spirit is gone on account of losing our own culture. Otherwise, India's culture is para-upakāra . India was open, "Come everyone, learn." Lord Jesus Christ also came here. All the Chinese, learned scholars, they used to come. The history is there. And India was open. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam . This is Indian culture. Even the enemy comes, "Yes, please come, you stay." But later on, they took advantage, "Oh, they are very liberal. Enter there." And still we are liberal, "Please come here, stay here and take prasādam free, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Open to everyone. I shall manage anyway. I shall travel, still I shall lay down my life and bring money. "Come here, stay." Still we are liberal. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). First of all, make your life successful by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then do good to others. *Yesterday, I think, in Tehran, one boy came. He proposed that is it not good to help others? I immediately challenged, "What you have got you can help? What is your asset?" You cannot help. It is simply bogus proposition. If you can help, you can simply help by spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "Sir, I have come to you." "Why?" "To request you that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious." "How?" Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ , "Always think of Me, just become My devotee, offer little obeisances." Anyone can do. A child can do. You cannot do? What is the difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Is there any difficulty? You haven't got to practice any yoga process, pressing your nose or keeping your head or this or that. No. Nothing. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68): "Without any doubt you are coming back to Me." And that is the highest perfection, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). There is no difficulty in preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no difficulty to accept it. And the result is the supreme. These are the people who have no faith. Therefore you have to canvass. They have no faith, I know that. Then why there is necessity of preaching all over the world? They have no faith, it is a fact. And you have to create faith. That is preaching. Padayor nipatya. That Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī: This is preaching. Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, what is that? Kāku-śataṁ padayor nipatya , kāku-śatam kṛtvā, śatam , "I fall down on your feet, and I am flattering you with folded hands." "Why? Why? What do you want to say?" "Yes, I have to say something." "What is that? Say it! Why you are becoming so humble?" "Yes, I have to say." "What? Say it!" He sādhavaḥ , "You are a very nice sādhu . But you forget all nonsense." That's kāku-śatam. *He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya , "Whatever nonsense you have learned, forget." Then what to do? Kāku-śataṁ bravīmi sakalam eva vihāya dūrād caitanya*-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam . "You just become devotee of Lord Caitanya. I am flattering you, I am falling down on your feet"—this is preaching. And what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . .? Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). And if you do that, then what is the result? Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). If one is doing like that, Kṛṣṇa immediately recognizes, "Oh, you are the best friend of Mine." So if you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, then what you want more? You are undergoing so much austerities and . . . to be recognized by God. And God says that "Immediately I recognize you." Whom? One who is doing this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). Immediately. You may be a fool, you may be rascal, you may be illiterate. But if you do this, immediately Kṛṣṇa recognizes. Kṛṣṇa never said that unless one is a big grammarian, big scientist, big politician, big engineer, big doctor, then I recognize. No. Simply one who does this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam . What is that paramaṁ guhyam? Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66): "Give up all nonsense. Surrender to Me." This is paramaṁ guhyam . And they are simply manufacturing nonsense. *So the time is very bad, but nature's law is very strict. We may defy it, "There is no God, there is no next birth, there is no nothing." We may say like that, but when death will come, you cannot say anything. Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). Bās , all your talkings, all your intelligence taken away. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Immediately transferred to another body. Daiva-netreṇa. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). "No, no, I am Prime Minister!" "No, you must become a dog." (laughter) Immediately. How can you protest? You cannot protest. You have acted like dog; *just become a dog. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya. Just like your medical science: you have infected the disease, you must suffer it. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ. Guṇa-saṅgaḥ . There's infection. Only in nirguṇa , a man can become nirguṇa by . . . Eh, don't talk of nirguṇa . First of all (laughter) become a dog. Because the only thing that can bring nirguṇa , then you may stop from getting a dog, if you do the bhakti . That is what I mean. Nirguṇa means bhakti . Nirguṇa means bhakti . Sa guṇān samatītyaitān (BG 14.26). That is nirguṇa . When you are untouched by the three guṇas , then you are nirguṇa . That is not very easy job. Very difficult. That is not easy. *Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati (BG 18.54). Nirguṇa is not so easy thing. This is nirguṇa . Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66). This is nirguṇa . Otherwise, everything sa guṇān , everything sa guṇān . Only fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, nirguṇa. This is . . . so . . . Humara desh me Bhagavad-gītā hai ispar instructions hai, ise cchor chaar karte hai. (There is Bhagavad-gītā in our country. The instructions are all there but they are giving up everything.) They are talking, "Yes, you take Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa." They say it. And they are doing that. Who? *Anyone. Take Mahatma Gandhi. He was so great student of Bhagavad*-gītā . Did he preach kṛṣṇa-bhakti? Bhagavad-gītā minus Kṛṣṇa, this is going on. Yes. Kaṁsa. Kill Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. What is the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? And everyone is preaching like that. Very worse condition of the world, godlessness, and they'll suffer, there is no doubt. Prakṛti is very strong. You can do whatever you like, but kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya , that will act. You may be very proud of your so-called prestigious position, but the kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya . . . puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi . . . (BG 13.22). Find out. *Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . *Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . He has to. He has to. Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān . So we are now put into the material prakṛti , and prakṛti-jān guṇān , we have to accept another body. This is the rascaldom. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Prasādam , you have got? (devotees offer obeisances) What is the report? We are publishing monthly magazine every month now. One is coming out in a few days for Janmāṣṭamī. And we have changed new house, very good house . . . (indistinct) What is the rent? Land also . . . No, no, rent. Rent is thousand rupees. One thousand rupees, plus tax for government. Plus twelve hundred? No, plus two hundred tax. They are Life Members from Ahmedabad. They came to see Your Divine Grace. Oh, thank you. So give them place to stay. So . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) Conversation -- August 15, 1976, Bombay That's all. Thank you. *So mind, his business is to think something. But ordinarily the thinking is we accept something and reject something. Or accept the same thing and again reject the same thing. This business is going on. But if you think of question, there is no question of rejecting. Simply accepting. Then it is fixed up. Other things you accept and reject. Something we accept as "Oh, it is very good." Again, "No, no, it is not good." Accepting. Childish. Child is playing, one type of playing, "No, no, another one." That is material. And when you fix up—no rejection, simply accept it—that is Kṛṣṇa . . . so if you think of Kṛṣṇa . . . just like here is temple. If you come and, as other devotees are doing, if you do, if you attend maṅgala-ārati , if you attend bhoga-ārati , always see, then offer obeisances, then naturally you will think of Kṛṣṇa always. Then as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become purified. Just like if you touch with fire you remain always warm. Similarly, man*-manā , if you always think of Kṛṣṇa, you gradually become fully Kṛṣṇa-ized, Kṛṣṇa's devotee, Kṛṣṇa's servant. That is perfection. There is no difficulty. People will not do that. That is the difficulty. "Why shall I think of Kṛṣṇa? I shall think of this, I shall think of that." This is the difficulty. Otherwise not difficulty. You have to think something, think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. Ye sanskar se hi nahi hota hai. (Does this not come with cultural values.) *Sanskar nahi ye hamara zid hai nahi karte, ye badmashi. (Not cultural values, this is our obstinacy, this is foolishness.) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ ( BG 7.15). Duṣkṛtinaḥ . Badmash, rascal, karega. Jaise child hota hai, koi baat sunega hi nahi, itna accha baat hai, nahi sunega, badmash hai, usko joota se theek karna hai, maya joota se theek karna hai, koi mushkil nahi hai, kahega nahi to mar do, joota se theek karo. (Rascal, he will do it. Just like a child, he does not listen to anyone. Such a fact, he will not listen, he is foolish rascal. He has to be beaten with the shoes to make him understand, illusion can be driven away by beating him with shoes. It is not very difficult.) Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Joota khate*-khate phir theek ho jayega. (Beating with shoes by māyā , that's all.) Kaam bhi hai, maya ki kaam hi hai. (If he is stubborn and refuses then beat him with shoes. By being hit with shoes a number of times, he will understand. This is the work of illusion.) (someone enters) Oh, when you have come? This morning. I was thinking of you. Oh, yes? So did you go to Bangkok? No, I'm going very soon. Maar khane me hi hai, wo bolta hai nahi . . . (It is in the beating, he refuses . . .) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Jab tak criminal rahega pitega police se khoob aur udhar badmashi chod dega police se bachne ke liye. (As long as he is a criminal, he will be beaten by the police and if he transforms to escape the police.) " mam eva parapadyante mayam etam taranti te ", pehle to police se mar khao. (first you are beaten by the police.) Mayavadi to ye . . . me zyada tha. Idhar zyada hai ki udhar? Indian side me ki west me? (The impersonalists . . . was more. Is it more here in India or there? On the Indian side or the western?) *Hum to Indian ya wo sub jante nahin. sides nahi kahin bhi hoye. Indian Māyāvādīs are more dangerous. Udhar Māyāvādī kuch nahi hai, sab materialist hain. yehi to sub india ko kharab kar diya hai. (I don't know, Indian or others, there are no sides, wherever they are. There are no impersonalists, only materialists. They only have spoiled the name of India.) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). Anyone who is influenced by Māyāvādī, he's doomed. He's doomed. He's finished. No more spiritual knowledge. He's doomed. How far the study of the scriptures helps us in being Kṛṣṇa conscious? *You read Bhagavad*-gītā . That is the essence of all scriptures. And follow it. It is, from the very beginning to the end, it is simply helping you. You haven't got to read many literatures. Just like these American, European boys, they are with me for the last, utmost seven, eight years. Otherwise, three years, four years. So how are they becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious? It is not at all difficult. They are accepting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and becoming perfect. But in India, "Why shall I worship Kṛṣṇa? I have got this, I have got that." He'll bring thousands of Kṛṣṇa competitors, and he'll himself, he has become Kṛṣṇa, "I am God." You see? He's so shameless that he says that, "I am God." God is so cheap. He's shameless. He has no shame even, how he says that he is God? Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . So-called jñānī means māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . Māyāvādī? *Māyayā apahṛta*-jñāna . Māyā . Maya uska gyan cheen liya aur wo samajhta hai hum bada gyani hai. Hai to wo moorkh No 1 aur wo samajhta hai hum gyani. Uska naam hai 'maya apahṛta-jñāna' apahrta mane cheen liya, wo mayavadi. (Illusion has taken away his knowledge and he is thinking that he is very intelligent, actually he is fool No. 1 and he understands that he is highly intelligent. His name is " māyayāpahṛta-jñāna " apahrta means taken away, he is an impersonalist. Who is very very much under the influence of māyā , he is Māyāvādī.) Unless he is too much under the influence of māyā , how can he say that, "I am God"? Which is impossible? Samjh lijiye koi baccha bol diya mai raja, ab bol dene se ho gaya raja. Itna saral se raja ho gaya. Rajya chahiye, praja chahiye, ministers chahiye. (Just think some child simply said that I am king, will he become king just by saying, is it so easy to become king, there should be a kingdom, there should be subjects, there should be ministers.) So many things which make one rāja , and if you simply imagine, "I am rāja ," so how much rascal he is, just see. Mūḍha . Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Isliye Chaitanya Mahaprabhu kehte hai, (That is why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,) Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). If one follow the Māyāvādīs and thinks that, "I am God," then he is finished. His future is finished. Wo to gyan cheen liya isse wo is stage par aagaya. (Because his knowledge was taken away, so he has come to this stage.) *. . . agyan ho gaya pagal nahi. Jaise aadmi koi pagal ho jaye to phir uska diagnosis hoga. jivan*-mrtya, pran rehte hue bhi mrtyu. Ek pagal wo hai aur ek pagal karmi. "Nunam pravatta kurute vikarma" karmi zyada hai. Ek factory ko samajhta hai hum khoob parishram karke khoob rapay-paisa kama ke sukhi ho jayenge. Ye ek pagal hai. Aur ek pagal hai humne parishram to bahut kiya par sukhi to nahi ho saka. Ab bhagavan . . . (. . . he has become ignorant not mad. Like if some person becomes mad then he is diagnosed. Life and death, even though alive, is as good as dead. He is mad and another mad man is a fruitive worker, more number of fruitive workers. He considers that he will work very hard, earn a lot of money and be happy. This is one mad man and another mad man. I worked hard but could not become happy. Now God . . .) Wo kya sochta hai? (What does he think?) *To sochta hai ye jhoot hai, jagat mithya hai uske peeche nahi jana chahiye, hum bhagavan hain. Uske baad ye satya, bhagvan bola hai satya. Ye sab chal raha hai, isliye bhagvan kehta hai "sarva dharman parityajya" kuch vyakti to ye samajh lete hain ki hum karmi hokarke, parishram karke, rupaiya*-paisa kamake, sarvatah raja ho karke, ye sab hkarke hum sukhi honge. Samajhta nahi ki isme sukh nahi. Ye ek pagal, ye ek pagal. (So he thinks that this is false, the world is an illusion; we must not run behind it. I am God, after this truth, God has revealed the truth. This is going on. That is why God says: " sarva dharman parityajya ". Some people think that by being a fruitive worker, working hard, earning lots of money, becoming a king, doing all this I will become happy but he does not understand that this is not happiness. So this is one mad man and that is another mad man.) Aur real sanity is jo bhagvan ka das ho jaye. bus. Wo din kab ayega jab hum sochenge ki hamara prabhu hai wo hamara sar chipakar raksha karta hai. is tarah se main . . . hounga. Jaise koi vyakti nisahay aur ek admi janta hai ki hamara pitaji hai, hamara matron hai, wo hamara raksha karega. Aiye baithiye. (And real sanity is to become the servant of God, that's all. When will that day come when I will understand that I have a Lord, He will give shelter and protect me. This way I will become . . . like a person who is helpless and another person knows that I have a father. I have a matron, they will protect me. Come, sit. That is very nice that, "I have got a protector.") Ek sanath. Mane ek nath hai, sanath. Anath and sanath. (One can be fearless, free. One with a protector, means one Lord, protector and orphan.) *Aur jo . . . wo anath hai. Jaise anth children hota hai bechare rasta me ghoomta phirta hai. Wo sanath jo janta hai ki hamare pitaji. Ye Natural hai (And one who has no one is an orphan. Like the orphans who roam around in the streets. That is one who knows that I have a father. Oh, yes. He's fearless. This is natural.) I have seen in my practical life. Long ago I was going in a tram car. So my son, he was two years old. The conductor said "Paisa lao, to bolta "paisa nahi." To conductor bolta hai utar jaiye. "Hah! Hamara pitājī he!" hum kaise utar jaye. Ye sanath. (The conductor said: "Give money" so he said: "I don't have money." The conductor said: "Then get down" He said: "Why, my father is there, how can I get down?" This is protected. He's confident, "My father is there. How can you get me down?" This is natural.) Sanātha*-jīvitam. Kadāham aikāntika-nitya-kiṅkaraḥ praharṣayiṣyāmi . That is ānanda, that "I have no fear. I have got my father here. I have got my protector." Sanātha-jīvitam. That is a fact. Aur ek anath jeev, koi tumko keh . . . ki parishram karo aur maro. Ye sab anath hai. (And one orphan, someone tells him . . . that work hard and dies. All these are orphans.) *Anath hone se asanti, kya hoga. Pita nahi hai hamara kya galti. Jo bolenge wo hum kar lenge. kya sharm, jo hukm karega kar lenge. Aur bhukti mukti apne account se kam karenge, apna plan banayenge. Jo karmi hai wo apna plan bana raha hai, itna rupaya kama lenge,to wo usi koshish me asanth aur mukti kami jo bhagvan ho jaye wo bhi asanth hai. Aur siddhi*-yogi wo sab yog-siddhi chahte hain jaise pani ke upar chal jate hain, dikhane ke liye sona lana phir magic bante-banate . . . usme to karigari lagta hai aap ek jewellery dikha ke thug le to uske liye parishram karna padega. Aur bhakt ko kuch karna nahi hai, jo bhagvan bol denge usko kar denge. Uska apna account se kuch karna nahi, na to magic dikhana hai, nahi to swarg-lok me jana hai, nahi to bhagavan hona hai, na to jail me jana hai, na to aur kuch karna hai. Caitanya-caritamrita me hai 'bhukti-mukti siddhi kali sakali asat'. Ye jitna hai sab asat. wo krishna bhakti me kuch-na-kuch chahiye, bhagavan se ek hone hai na to uska magic dikhana hai, na to swarg-lok jana hai, usme kya hai. 'narayan para sakti na kutascan bibhyati' jo Narayan ke hukm ka palan karta hai usko kuch karna hi nahi hai.' . . . bhagavan bolta hai tum nark me jayega theek hai jayega, bhagavan to humko hukm karega. (If one is an orphan then no peace, what will happen, if father is not there what is my fault? What they say I will do, what shame, what they say I will do. And from the account of bhukti-mukti we will work, we will plan. Those who are fruitive workers, they are making plans, we will make so much money, they are busy in that effort. Those workers, materialists who try to become God are always disturbed. And the yogis are busy with their jugglery like walking on the water, on the fire, producing gold, in doing this . . . but skill is required in this. If they produce gold and show you that requires effort. But the devotees don't have to do anything. They don't have to show magic, they don't have to become God, they don't have to go to heaven, they don't have to go to the police station, nor do they have to do anything. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is stated " bhukti-mukti siddhi kali sakali asat ". Whatever there is in this material world is false, illusion. In Kṛṣṇa devotion something is required, either merge into effulgence, or show magic, or go to heaven, what is there in this. " Narayana para sakti na kutascan bibhyati ". One who follows the instructions of Narayana he does not have to do anything. If God says you must go to hell then accept, God gives orders.) Humko to bhagavan ka hukm manana hai. To aap agar nark me hukm manana to bhagvan ko jana padega. To hamare saath bhagavan hai to nark kya hai. jaise Narad Muni jate hain vaikunth me. To Narad prachar karne ko gaya to nark me thode hi gaya. (We have to just follow God's orders. So if you have to go to hell to obey His orders then He will be there and if He is there then it is not hell. Just like how Narada Muni goes to the heavenly planet. He does not go to hell to preach.) Jaya . (end) Conversation -- August 15, 1976, Bombay That's all. Thank you. *So mind, his business is to think something. But ordinarily the thinking is we accept something and reject something. Or accept the same thing and again reject the same thing. This business is going on. But if you think of question, there is no question of rejecting. Simply accepting. Then it is fixed up. Other things you accept and reject. Something we accept as "Oh, it is very good." Again, "No, no, it is not good." Accepting. Childish. Child is playing, one type of playing, "No, no, another one." That is material. And when you fix up—no rejection, simply accept it—that is Kṛṣṇa . . . so if you think of Kṛṣṇa . . . just like here is temple. If you come and, as other devotees are doing, if you do, if you attend maṅgala-ārati , if you attend bhoga-ārati , always see, then offer obeisances, then naturally you will think of Kṛṣṇa always. Then as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become purified. Just like if you touch with fire you remain always warm. Similarly, man*-manā , if you always think of Kṛṣṇa, you gradually become fully Kṛṣṇa-ized, Kṛṣṇa's devotee, Kṛṣṇa's servant. That is perfection. There is no difficulty. People will not do that. That is the difficulty. "Why shall I think of Kṛṣṇa? I shall think of this, I shall think of that." This is the difficulty. Otherwise not difficulty. You have to think something, think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. Ye sanskar se hi nahi hota hai. (Does this not come with cultural values.) *Sanskar nahi ye hamara zid hai nahi karte, ye badmashi. (Not cultural values, this is our obstinacy, this is foolishness.) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ ( BG 7.15). Duṣkṛtinaḥ . Badmash, rascal, karega. Jaise child hota hai, koi baat sunega hi nahi, itna accha baat hai, nahi sunega, badmash hai, usko joota se theek karna hai, maya joota se theek karna hai, koi mushkil nahi hai, kahega nahi to mar do, joota se theek karo. (Rascal, he will do it. Just like a child, he does not listen to anyone. Such a fact, he will not listen, he is foolish rascal. He has to be beaten with the shoes to make him understand, illusion can be driven away by beating him with shoes. It is not very difficult.) Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Joota khate*-khate phir theek ho jayega. (Beating with shoes by māyā , that's all.) Kaam bhi hai, maya ki kaam hi hai. (If he is stubborn and refuses then beat him with shoes. By being hit with shoes a number of times, he will understand. This is the work of illusion.) (someone enters) Oh, when you have come? This morning. I was thinking of you. Oh, yes? So did you go to Bangkok? No, I'm going very soon. Maar khane me hi hai, wo bolta hai nahi . . . (It is in the beating, he refuses . . .) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Jab tak criminal rahega pitega police se khoob aur udhar badmashi chod dega police se bachne ke liye. (As long as he is a criminal, he will be beaten by the police and if he transforms to escape the police.) " mam eva parapadyante mayam etam taranti te ", pehle to police se mar khao. (first you are beaten by the police.) Mayavadi to ye . . . me zyada tha. Idhar zyada hai ki udhar? Indian side me ki west me? (The impersonalists . . . was more. Is it more here in India or there? On the Indian side or the western?) *Hum to Indian ya wo sub jante nahin. sides nahi kahin bhi hoye. Indian Māyāvādīs are more dangerous. Udhar Māyāvādī kuch nahi hai, sab materialist hain. yehi to sub india ko kharab kar diya hai. (I don't know, Indian or others, there are no sides, wherever they are. There are no impersonalists, only materialists. They only have spoiled the name of India.) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). Anyone who is influenced by Māyāvādī, he's doomed. He's doomed. He's finished. No more spiritual knowledge. He's doomed. How far the study of the scriptures helps us in being Kṛṣṇa conscious? *You read Bhagavad*-gītā . That is the essence of all scriptures. And follow it. It is, from the very beginning to the end, it is simply helping you. You haven't got to read many literatures. Just like these American, European boys, they are with me for the last, utmost seven, eight years. Otherwise, three years, four years. So how are they becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious? It is not at all difficult. They are accepting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and becoming perfect. But in India, "Why shall I worship Kṛṣṇa? I have got this, I have got that." He'll bring thousands of Kṛṣṇa competitors, and he'll himself, he has become Kṛṣṇa, "I am God." You see? He's so shameless that he says that, "I am God." God is so cheap. He's shameless. He has no shame even, how he says that he is God? Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . So-called jñānī means māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . Māyāvādī? *Māyayā apahṛta*-jñāna . Māyā . Maya uska gyan cheen liya aur wo samajhta hai hum bada gyani hai. Hai to wo moorkh No 1 aur wo samajhta hai hum gyani. Uska naam hai 'maya apahṛta-jñāna' apahrta mane cheen liya, wo mayavadi. (Illusion has taken away his knowledge and he is thinking that he is very intelligent, actually he is fool No. 1 and he understands that he is highly intelligent. His name is " māyayāpahṛta-jñāna " apahrta means taken away, he is an impersonalist. Who is very very much under the influence of māyā , he is Māyāvādī.) Unless he is too much under the influence of māyā , how can he say that, "I am God"? Which is impossible? Samjh lijiye koi baccha bol diya mai raja, ab bol dene se ho gaya raja. Itna saral se raja ho gaya. Rajya chahiye, praja chahiye, ministers chahiye. (Just think some child simply said that I am king, will he become king just by saying, is it so easy to become king, there should be a kingdom, there should be subjects, there should be ministers.) So many things which make one rāja , and if you simply imagine, "I am rāja ," so how much rascal he is, just see. Mūḍha . Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Isliye Chaitanya Mahaprabhu kehte hai, (That is why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,) Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). If one follow the Māyāvādīs and thinks that, "I am God," then he is finished. His future is finished. Wo to gyan cheen liya isse wo is stage par aagaya. (Because his knowledge was taken away, so he has come to this stage.) *. . . agyan ho gaya pagal nahi. Jaise aadmi koi pagal ho jaye to phir uska diagnosis hoga. jivan*-mrtya, pran rehte hue bhi mrtyu. Ek pagal wo hai aur ek pagal karmi. "Nunam pravatta kurute vikarma" karmi zyada hai. Ek factory ko samajhta hai hum khoob parishram karke khoob rapay-paisa kama ke sukhi ho jayenge. Ye ek pagal hai. Aur ek pagal hai humne parishram to bahut kiya par sukhi to nahi ho saka. Ab bhagavan . . . (. . . he has become ignorant not mad. Like if some person becomes mad then he is diagnosed. Life and death, even though alive, is as good as dead. He is mad and another mad man is a fruitive worker, more number of fruitive workers. He considers that he will work very hard, earn a lot of money and be happy. This is one mad man and another mad man. I worked hard but could not become happy. Now God . . .) Wo kya sochta hai? (What does he think?) *To sochta hai ye jhoot hai, jagat mithya hai uske peeche nahi jana chahiye, hum bhagavan hain. Uske baad ye satya, bhagvan bola hai satya. Ye sab chal raha hai, isliye bhagvan kehta hai "sarva dharman parityajya" kuch vyakti to ye samajh lete hain ki hum karmi hokarke, parishram karke, rupaiya*-paisa kamake, sarvatah raja ho karke, ye sab hkarke hum sukhi honge. Samajhta nahi ki isme sukh nahi. Ye ek pagal, ye ek pagal. (So he thinks that this is false, the world is an illusion; we must not run behind it. I am God, after this truth, God has revealed the truth. This is going on. That is why God says: " sarva dharman parityajya ". Some people think that by being a fruitive worker, working hard, earning lots of money, becoming a king, doing all this I will become happy but he does not understand that this is not happiness. So this is one mad man and that is another mad man.) Aur real sanity is jo bhagvan ka das ho jaye. bus. Wo din kab ayega jab hum sochenge ki hamara prabhu hai wo hamara sar chipakar raksha karta hai. is tarah se main . . . hounga. Jaise koi vyakti nisahay aur ek admi janta hai ki hamara pitaji hai, hamara matron hai, wo hamara raksha karega. Aiye baithiye. (And real sanity is to become the servant of God, that's all. When will that day come when I will understand that I have a Lord, He will give shelter and protect me. This way I will become . . . like a person who is helpless and another person knows that I have a father. I have a matron, they will protect me. Come, sit. That is very nice that, "I have got a protector.") Ek sanath. Mane ek nath hai, sanath. Anath and sanath. (One can be fearless, free. One with a protector, means one Lord, protector and orphan.) *Aur jo . . . wo anath hai. Jaise anth children hota hai bechare rasta me ghoomta phirta hai. Wo sanath jo janta hai ki hamare pitaji. Ye Natural hai (And one who has no one is an orphan. Like the orphans who roam around in the streets. That is one who knows that I have a father. Oh, yes. He's fearless. This is natural.) I have seen in my practical life. Long ago I was going in a tram car. So my son, he was two years old. The conductor said "Paisa lao, to bolta "paisa nahi." To conductor bolta hai utar jaiye. "Hah! Hamara pitājī he!" hum kaise utar jaye. Ye sanath. (The conductor said: "Give money" so he said: "I don't have money." The conductor said: "Then get down" He said: "Why, my father is there, how can I get down?" This is protected. He's confident, "My father is there. How can you get me down?" This is natural.) Sanātha*-jīvitam. Kadāham aikāntika-nitya-kiṅkaraḥ praharṣayiṣyāmi . That is ānanda, that "I have no fear. I have got my father here. I have got my protector." Sanātha-jīvitam. That is a fact. Aur ek anath jeev, koi tumko keh . . . ki parishram karo aur maro. Ye sab anath hai. (And one orphan, someone tells him . . . that work hard and dies. All these are orphans.) *Anath hone se asanti, kya hoga. Pita nahi hai hamara kya galti. Jo bolenge wo hum kar lenge. kya sharm, jo hukm karega kar lenge. Aur bhukti mukti apne account se kam karenge, apna plan banayenge. Jo karmi hai wo apna plan bana raha hai, itna rupaya kama lenge,to wo usi koshish me asanth aur mukti kami jo bhagvan ho jaye wo bhi asanth hai. Aur siddhi*-yogi wo sab yog-siddhi chahte hain jaise pani ke upar chal jate hain, dikhane ke liye sona lana phir magic bante-banate . . . usme to karigari lagta hai aap ek jewellery dikha ke thug le to uske liye parishram karna padega. Aur bhakt ko kuch karna nahi hai, jo bhagvan bol denge usko kar denge. Uska apna account se kuch karna nahi, na to magic dikhana hai, nahi to swarg-lok me jana hai, nahi to bhagavan hona hai, na to jail me jana hai, na to aur kuch karna hai. Caitanya-caritamrita me hai 'bhukti-mukti siddhi kali sakali asat'. Ye jitna hai sab asat. wo krishna bhakti me kuch-na-kuch chahiye, bhagavan se ek hone hai na to uska magic dikhana hai, na to swarg-lok jana hai, usme kya hai. 'narayan para sakti na kutascan bibhyati' jo Narayan ke hukm ka palan karta hai usko kuch karna hi nahi hai.' . . . bhagavan bolta hai tum nark me jayega theek hai jayega, bhagavan to humko hukm karega. (If one is an orphan then no peace, what will happen, if father is not there what is my fault? What they say I will do, what shame, what they say I will do. And from the account of bhukti-mukti we will work, we will plan. Those who are fruitive workers, they are making plans, we will make so much money, they are busy in that effort. Those workers, materialists who try to become God are always disturbed. And the yogis are busy with their jugglery like walking on the water, on the fire, producing gold, in doing this . . . but skill is required in this. If they produce gold and show you that requires effort. But the devotees don't have to do anything. They don't have to show magic, they don't have to become God, they don't have to go to heaven, they don't have to go to the police station, nor do they have to do anything. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is stated " bhukti-mukti siddhi kali sakali asat ". Whatever there is in this material world is false, illusion. In Kṛṣṇa devotion something is required, either merge into effulgence, or show magic, or go to heaven, what is there in this. " Narayana para sakti na kutascan bibhyati ". One who follows the instructions of Narayana he does not have to do anything. If God says you must go to hell then accept, God gives orders.) Humko to bhagavan ka hukm manana hai. To aap agar nark me hukm manana to bhagvan ko jana padega. To hamare saath bhagavan hai to nark kya hai. jaise Narad Muni jate hain vaikunth me. To Narad prachar karne ko gaya to nark me thode hi gaya. (We have to just follow God's orders. So if you have to go to hell to obey His orders then He will be there and if He is there then it is not hell. Just like how Narada Muni goes to the heavenly planet. He does not go to hell to preach.) Jaya . (end) Conversation -- August 16, 1976, Bombay Vairāgya is there. Sir, shall I say, vairāgyaṁ jñeyam . . . (indistinct) Yes, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt ( SB 11.2.42). This is vairāgya . So unless he has attained this stage, virakti , then where is bhakti ? Bhakti is so powerful that it brings automatically vairāgya . But if there is no vairāgya , where is bhakti ? Understand it now? Yes. It does not depend that you have to practice vairāgya separately. But if you are actually bhakta , then vairāgya is there. If there is no vairāgya , there is no bhakti; *it is sahajiyā*-bhāva. *In other words, vairāgya is a by*-product of bhakti . Yes. That is stated: *Vairāgya is to be practiced, but bhakti is so strong, kecit kevalayā bhaktyā , simply by bhakti, vāsudeva*-parāyaṇa. Vairāgya immediately comes. Aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ . If actually one is pure bhakta , then everything material, finished. That is real bhakta . Now I have got some bhakti and some material desire also, that is not bhakti . That is markaṭa-vairāgya. That does not mean that I shall stop bhakti . No. You take bhakti to the principle, to the regulative principle, then automatically vairāgya will come. The vairāgya is not coming, that means you have not been a pure bhakta . That is adulteration. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). That is bhakti . And because there is not anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167), it is adulterated. *Bhakti*-avyabhicāriṇī . *Avyabhicāriṇī , yes. Māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena yah sevate. Avyabhicāreṇa. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He is above three guṇas . So if I am still under the modes of material nature, that means I'm not in avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti . This is the warning. Therefore Lord Buddha rejected Vedas . Because, sir, in the name of Veda people were misbehaving. *Vedas* , when Lord Buddha wanted stop animal killing, these rascals came with *Vedas* : " *Vedas* there is sacrifice, there is animal killing." So he thought that these rascals will create botheration. By bringing *Vedas* , there is . . . he said: "I don't care for it." Veda māniyā . *Similarly, these rascals are giving evidence of Rūpa Gosvāmī's advice that, "Here is Rādhā*-kuṇḍa mentioned." But whether you have followed other things. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ . . . *Yes. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha*-vegaṁ, pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. Etān vegān yo viṣa . . . you are manipulated by the udara-vegam, upastha-vegam . But first there is test: etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ (NOI 1). Then for him Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). He has got three dozen sevā-dāsī , and living in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. My Guru Mahārāja wanted to publish Govinda-līlāmṛta . He asked permission of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So first of all Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, "I'll tell you some day." And when he reminded, he said: "Yes, you can print one copy. If you are so much anxious to print it, print one copy. You'll read and you will see that you have printed. Not for distribution." So we are printing all these books for understanding properly. Not that "Here is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Let us go." Jump over like monkey. "Here is rāsa-līlā . Immediately . . ." *Even in Kṛṣṇa book, rāsa*-līlā should not be told in public. No, why? Kṛṣṇa book must be there. In the book must be there. But in public . . . *But you should go gradually. You should go gradually. You first of all understand Kṛṣṇa, then kṛṣṇa*-līlā. If you have not understood Kṛṣṇa, then you'll think Kṛṣṇa's rāsa-līlā is just like we mix with young women. And that becomes as polluted. Because they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Kṛṣṇa understanding so easy? If you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, how can you go to the Kṛṣṇa's confidential activities? Some of the devotees, they said that it is for liberated souls. So they said, "Well, we are all liberated." Yes. Liberated for going to hell. In your Kṛṣṇa book, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've given such clear explanations along with the stories of Kṛṣṇa that it's very difficult to misinterpret them, because you use such clear explanation. No, you read all the books first of all. Then you'll be able to understand. Even theoretical understanding that Kṛṣṇa is transcendental will not help unless one . . . Because Kṛṣṇa is giving . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa lifted the hill. Now how you can become equal with Kṛṣṇa? Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about if some devotees, I know they want to come to Vṛndāvana . . . Every devotee, they must follow the rules and regulations, that's all. And engage in practical service to Kṛṣṇa. *Yes. Guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane āśā . Has he taken order from Guru Mahārāja that "I am going to jump over Rādhā-kuṇḍa"? Why does he go? Daily singing, guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete, āra nā kariha . Why should he desire like that? There are some devotees who always want to . . . *They are not devotees. Rascals. Don't say "some devotees." Devotees will hear: guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane. *They also wear the Rādhā*-kuṇḍa māṭi, tilaka . *There is no harm, but they should understand what is Rādhā*-kuṇḍa and how to deal with Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī showed how to live in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau . He was circumambulating Rādhā-kuṇḍa, falling down, making a mark. That is Rādhā-kuṇḍa vāsī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Not only counted holy names, but offering obeisances so many hundred times in . . . (indistinct) . . . that is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. He, so much vairāgya he showed. He can take bath in the Rādhā-kuṇḍa. First of all, do this like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca yau. *In other words, first one should understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then gradually the First Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , then ultimately Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Without that, simply taking Caitanya-caritāmṛta . . . *Yes. Bhagavad*-gītā is the entrance. Then Bhāgavata is graduate, and Caitanya-caritāmṛta . . . this is the step by step. But if one is sincere, everything becomes revealed to him. He does not commit mistake. Some devotees, especially in Vṛndāvana, who will always try to run to Hardwar, Jagannātha Purī, always parikramā of holy places. It is good to go to holy places. They go independently. Unauthorized. They go more to avoid service than to become purified. But there's no harm if they just . . . *(coughing) You see you can become independent, nobody can check you. Everyone is independent. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). But one who wants to be regulated, he has to surrender. That is voluntary. Otherwise, everyone is free to do whatever he likes. And those who are surrendered souls, they will wait for the instruction of guru and do accordingly. That is the proper. Guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha. That is wanted. Otherwise, everyone can remain independent. All living beings are independent. Even if I say that you do not do it, you are independent, you can do it. Even Kṛṣṇa gives independence to Arjuna. Yathecchasi tathā kuru : "I have told you everything. Now you do whatever you like." So that depends on the candidate. Everyone is free to do anything, but if he's actually serious, then he has to do guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete āra nā kariha . This is . . . What prompts the soul to misuse his independence or improperly use? Because he has got little independence. Yathecchasi tathā , he has got this. Why do some misuse it and some never misuse it? That depends on him. If one is determined that, "I shall only act according to the advice of my Guru Mahārāja," then he's perfect. One has to submit like Arjuna said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). Otherwise he'll argue. *Even nitya*-siddha has guru in the spiritual . . . *Even the liberated soul, nitya*-siddha. *Liberated soul never says that, "I am liberated." As soon as he says "liberated," he's a rascal. A liberated soul will never say that "I am liberated." That is liberation. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is God— guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan (CC Adi 7.71): "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me fool number one, and he has chastised Me." He's God. This is the example. If one remains always a servant ever*-lastingly of guru , then he is liberated. And as soon as he thinks that he is liberated, he's a rascal. That is the teaching of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Guru more mūrkha dekhi . Caitanya Mahāprabhu is mūrkha ? Why He's posing Himself that mūrkha , "I am fool number one"? That means that is liberation. You must be ready always to be chastised by guru . Then he's liberated. And as soon as he thinks that, "I am beyond this chastisement. I am liberated," he's a rascal. Why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan ? This is sahajiyā-vāda. He is thinking, "Oh I have become liberated. I don't require any direction of my guru . I'm liberated." Then he's rascal. Why this Gauḍīya Maṭha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru . He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that, "This man should be the next ācārya ." But these people, just after his passing away, they began to fight, who shall be ācārya . That is the failure. They never thought, "Why Guru Mahārāja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be ācārya ?" They wanted to create artificially somebody ācārya , and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Mahārāja wanted to appoint somebody as ācārya , why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insisted on it. They declared some unfit person to become ācārya . Then another man came, then another ācārya , another ācārya . So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Mahārāja. That is perfection. And as soon as he learns the Guru Mahārāja is dead, "Now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and I become." Then he's finished. They kept fighting, and when the real ācārya emerged they all became wonderstruck. They all became baffled. Now they all know in their hearts. They all know it. I can see. They all know that who is the real ācārya . The real ācārya emerges by his own preaching? Yes. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- August 16, 1976, Bombay Vairāgya is there. Sir, shall I say, vairāgyaṁ jñeyam . . . (indistinct) Yes, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt ( SB 11.2.42). This is vairāgya . So unless he has attained this stage, virakti , then where is bhakti ? Bhakti is so powerful that it brings automatically vairāgya . But if there is no vairāgya , where is bhakti ? Understand it now? Yes. It does not depend that you have to practice vairāgya separately. But if you are actually bhakta , then vairāgya is there. If there is no vairāgya , there is no bhakti; *it is sahajiyā*-bhāva. *In other words, vairāgya is a by*-product of bhakti . Yes. That is stated: *Vairāgya is to be practiced, but bhakti is so strong, kecit kevalayā bhaktyā , simply by bhakti, vāsudeva*-parāyaṇa. Vairāgya immediately comes. Aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ . If actually one is pure bhakta , then everything material, finished. That is real bhakta . Now I have got some bhakti and some material desire also, that is not bhakti . That is markaṭa-vairāgya. That does not mean that I shall stop bhakti . No. You take bhakti to the principle, to the regulative principle, then automatically vairāgya will come. The vairāgya is not coming, that means you have not been a pure bhakta . That is adulteration. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). That is bhakti . And because there is not anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167), it is adulterated. *Bhakti*-avyabhicāriṇī . *Avyabhicāriṇī , yes. Māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena yah sevate. Avyabhicāreṇa. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He is above three guṇas . So if I am still under the modes of material nature, that means I'm not in avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti . This is the warning. Therefore Lord Buddha rejected Vedas . Because, sir, in the name of Veda people were misbehaving. *Vedas* , when Lord Buddha wanted stop animal killing, these rascals came with *Vedas* : " *Vedas* there is sacrifice, there is animal killing." So he thought that these rascals will create botheration. By bringing *Vedas* , there is . . . he said: "I don't care for it." Veda māniyā . *Similarly, these rascals are giving evidence of Rūpa Gosvāmī's advice that, "Here is Rādhā*-kuṇḍa mentioned." But whether you have followed other things. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ . . . *Yes. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha*-vegaṁ, pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. Etān vegān yo viṣa . . . you are manipulated by the udara-vegam, upastha-vegam . But first there is test: etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ (NOI 1). Then for him Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). He has got three dozen sevā-dāsī , and living in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. My Guru Mahārāja wanted to publish Govinda-līlāmṛta . He asked permission of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So first of all Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, "I'll tell you some day." And when he reminded, he said: "Yes, you can print one copy. If you are so much anxious to print it, print one copy. You'll read and you will see that you have printed. Not for distribution." So we are printing all these books for understanding properly. Not that "Here is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Let us go." Jump over like monkey. "Here is rāsa-līlā . Immediately . . ." *Even in Kṛṣṇa book, rāsa*-līlā should not be told in public. No, why? Kṛṣṇa book must be there. In the book must be there. But in public . . . *But you should go gradually. You should go gradually. You first of all understand Kṛṣṇa, then kṛṣṇa*-līlā. If you have not understood Kṛṣṇa, then you'll think Kṛṣṇa's rāsa-līlā is just like we mix with young women. And that becomes as polluted. Because they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Kṛṣṇa understanding so easy? If you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, how can you go to the Kṛṣṇa's confidential activities? Some of the devotees, they said that it is for liberated souls. So they said, "Well, we are all liberated." Yes. Liberated for going to hell. In your Kṛṣṇa book, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've given such clear explanations along with the stories of Kṛṣṇa that it's very difficult to misinterpret them, because you use such clear explanation. No, you read all the books first of all. Then you'll be able to understand. Even theoretical understanding that Kṛṣṇa is transcendental will not help unless one . . . Because Kṛṣṇa is giving . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa lifted the hill. Now how you can become equal with Kṛṣṇa? Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about if some devotees, I know they want to come to Vṛndāvana . . . Every devotee, they must follow the rules and regulations, that's all. And engage in practical service to Kṛṣṇa. *Yes. Guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane āśā . Has he taken order from Guru Mahārāja that "I am going to jump over Rādhā-kuṇḍa"? Why does he go? Daily singing, guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete, āra nā kariha . Why should he desire like that? There are some devotees who always want to . . . *They are not devotees. Rascals. Don't say "some devotees." Devotees will hear: guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane. *They also wear the Rādhā*-kuṇḍa māṭi, tilaka . *There is no harm, but they should understand what is Rādhā*-kuṇḍa and how to deal with Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī showed how to live in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau . He was circumambulating Rādhā-kuṇḍa, falling down, making a mark. That is Rādhā-kuṇḍa vāsī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Not only counted holy names, but offering obeisances so many hundred times in . . . (indistinct) . . . that is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. He, so much vairāgya he showed. He can take bath in the Rādhā-kuṇḍa. First of all, do this like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca yau. *In other words, first one should understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then gradually the First Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , then ultimately Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Without that, simply taking Caitanya-caritāmṛta . . . *Yes. Bhagavad*-gītā is the entrance. Then Bhāgavata is graduate, and Caitanya-caritāmṛta . . . this is the step by step. But if one is sincere, everything becomes revealed to him. He does not commit mistake. Some devotees, especially in Vṛndāvana, who will always try to run to Hardwar, Jagannātha Purī, always parikramā of holy places. It is good to go to holy places. They go independently. Unauthorized. They go more to avoid service than to become purified. But there's no harm if they just . . . *(coughing) You see you can become independent, nobody can check you. Everyone is independent. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). But one who wants to be regulated, he has to surrender. That is voluntary. Otherwise, everyone is free to do whatever he likes. And those who are surrendered souls, they will wait for the instruction of guru and do accordingly. That is the proper. Guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha. That is wanted. Otherwise, everyone can remain independent. All living beings are independent. Even if I say that you do not do it, you are independent, you can do it. Even Kṛṣṇa gives independence to Arjuna. Yathecchasi tathā kuru : "I have told you everything. Now you do whatever you like." So that depends on the candidate. Everyone is free to do anything, but if he's actually serious, then he has to do guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete āra nā kariha . This is . . . What prompts the soul to misuse his independence or improperly use? Because he has got little independence. Yathecchasi tathā , he has got this. Why do some misuse it and some never misuse it? That depends on him. If one is determined that, "I shall only act according to the advice of my Guru Mahārāja," then he's perfect. One has to submit like Arjuna said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). Otherwise he'll argue. *Even nitya*-siddha has guru in the spiritual . . . *Even the liberated soul, nitya*-siddha. *Liberated soul never says that, "I am liberated." As soon as he says "liberated," he's a rascal. A liberated soul will never say that "I am liberated." That is liberation. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is God— guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan (CC Adi 7.71): "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me fool number one, and he has chastised Me." He's God. This is the example. If one remains always a servant ever*-lastingly of guru , then he is liberated. And as soon as he thinks that he is liberated, he's a rascal. That is the teaching of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Guru more mūrkha dekhi . Caitanya Mahāprabhu is mūrkha ? Why He's posing Himself that mūrkha , "I am fool number one"? That means that is liberation. You must be ready always to be chastised by guru . Then he's liberated. And as soon as he thinks that, "I am beyond this chastisement. I am liberated," he's a rascal. Why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan ? This is sahajiyā-vāda. He is thinking, "Oh I have become liberated. I don't require any direction of my guru . I'm liberated." Then he's rascal. Why this Gauḍīya Maṭha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru . He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that, "This man should be the next ācārya ." But these people, just after his passing away, they began to fight, who shall be ācārya . That is the failure. They never thought, "Why Guru Mahārāja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be ācārya ?" They wanted to create artificially somebody ācārya , and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Mahārāja wanted to appoint somebody as ācārya , why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insisted on it. They declared some unfit person to become ācārya . Then another man came, then another ācārya , another ācārya . So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Mahārāja. That is perfection. And as soon as he learns the Guru Mahārāja is dead, "Now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and I become." Then he's finished. They kept fighting, and when the real ācārya emerged they all became wonderstruck. They all became baffled. Now they all know in their hearts. They all know it. I can see. They all know that who is the real ācārya . The real ācārya emerges by his own preaching? Yes. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- August 17, 1976, Hyderabad Speak loudly. It's very noisy. This is Dr. Ghosh. This is Visukeran Agarwal, one of our very close friends in Hyderabad. He's a very close friend in Hyderabad. I think I have seen you. Oh, yes, yes. Apni Dr. Ghosh? (Are you Dr. Ghosh?) Ami Dr. Ghosh, bohudin Europe chilam. Tarpore Gurur adeshe amra jongole ekta gram sristi korechi paharer upore. Sekhane athash bochor achi. Ta apnar somosto je byapar amar jana ache. To apnader upolokkhe ekta prokando jaiga okhane, aaj mane chomotkar paharer upore, khub nam kora, eni janen, Kodaikanal. Kodaikanal er kache. Okhane sob jaiga dhore . . . (indistinct) . . . ponchas, ponchas kilometer er modhhe. Khub boro jongoler modhhe amra somosto gram toiri korchi. Sekhane amader upasonar dorkar, apni jodi ektu pododhuli den tahole amader dos hazar loker upokar hoye jai. (Yes I am Dr. Ghosh. I stayed in Europe for many days. Then by the order of my guru we made a village in the forest at the top of the hill. Staying there for twenty eight years. I am aware of all your activities. For your sake I have selected a big place there, at the top of the hill, very beautiful. It's a famous spot, he knows, Kodaikanal. It's near to Kodaikanal. There holding the lands . . . (indistinct) . . . fifty, within fifty kilometers. We have made villages within a very big forest. We need to do some activity of worship there, if we can get the dust of your feet there then it will be of great benefit for the ten thousand people who are residing at that place.) Nischoi jabo. (Surely I will go.) Apni ese . . . apnader ei sob lok joner jonne ami ekta jaiga toiri korechi. Jara, era ja kaaj korche, boddo gorom. Sekhane chomotkar thanda, chiro bosonto. Kak nei, sap nei. (Once you go . . . I have made a place there for all of your people. These people, the work that they are doing, here it is too hot. The climate there is very cool, eternal spring. No crows, no snakes even.) Ekhan theke koto dur? (How far it is from here?) Kachei ekhan theke. Ami to ekhane aat din apnar jonne bose achi. (It's not very far. I am waiting here for you for eight days.) Oh! Besh korechen. (Oh, you have done it good.) (laughing) Ha ha . . . aat din, eni janen. Aat din bose achi, apnar ektu . . . amar naam ache prithibite. Ami mane Paris theke amar . . . (Ha ha . . . eight days, he knows. For eight days I am staying here, just for your little . . . I have a good reputation all over the world, from Paris mine . . .) Puro naam ki? (What's your full name?) Hiranmoy Ghosh Singho. Amra Jessore er lok. Amader pitamoho ra sob Jessore er raja chilo. Sei sob gachhe . . . Singha, sei jonne amader boro cheler naam er pichone ekta Singha thake, kenona amra khotriyo. Ta ami bohu kal bilete chilam. Amar satero bochor bilete theke. Desh swadhin hobar pore amra asi. (Hiranmoy Ghosh Singho. We are from Jessore. Our ancestors were the kings of Jessore. All those are gone now . . . Singha, for that reason the eldest son in our family carries the title "Singha" (Lion), because we are ksatriya . But I stayed overseas for many years. I stayed in foreign countries for seventeen years. After India got independence we came back.) Kothai chilen? (Where did you stay?) Besirbhag somoi France e chilam. Ami daktari MD France theke ni ebong Vienar theke ni. Nea amar Europe e khub boro posar chilo. Jokhon desh swadhin holo, tokhon Sri Aurobindo amader guide chilen. To Jawaharlal Nehru amake deke anen. To dekhlam sob pagoler byapar. Aurobindo bollen, tumi o sober modhhe miso na. Tomar ja kaj seta jongol, gorib lokder songe. To khuje khuje ekta jongol ber kore sekhanei bose achhi athash bochor. Amar boyesh satattor. (Most of the time I stayed in France. I took my MD in Medical from France and Vienna. After that I had a very good practice in Europe. When India got independence, at that time Sri Aurobindo was our guide. Jawaharlal Nehru then called me here. After coming I realized that these were all insanity. Aurobindo told us not to get involved with those people. He said that your job will be in the forest, with poor people. After searching a lot we found out a forest and stationed there for twenty eight years. Now I am seventy seven years old.) . . . (indistinct) . . . jokhon Gandhir assistant ra sob jail e jai . . . (. . . (indistinct) . . . when all the assistants of Gandhi were going to jail . . .) Ha. (Yes.) Onek bar approach korechilo, apni asun. I refused, na na. (They approached me many times, please come and join us. But I refused, no no.) Sunun amar okhane khub Hari sankirtan hoi, aar amra Joidev, amar stri khub boro songit, khub namkora, biswo bikhyato. Ta amra sob bose achi apnar pododhulir jonne. (Listen, we perform regular Hari sankirtana there at my place and we also recite Jaydeva (a poet), my wife is a big singer, very reputed, famous all over the world. So we all are waiting there for the dust of your feet.) Prabhupāda: Ami toiri, apnake ghare, mane Honumaner moton apnake nea jete raji achhi, ek jhape. (laughter) (I am ready, like Hanuman I will carry you in my shoulder and reach there with a big leap.) (laughter)) Ekhane 5- 7 din . . . (indistinct) (Here 5 to 7 days . . . (indistinct)) Ekhan theke kache. Apni . . . apni jedin . . . sunun apnar jonne ami ekhane, eni janen dos din bose achi. Kal rattir bela apnaked dekhlam boro bhir. (It's not far from this place. When you . . . when you . . . see he knows I am sitting here for ten days. I saw you yesterday night but it was heavily crowded.) After this function we can go there. And he knows about Kodaikanal. It's a very wonderful place. I shall go there. There are very, very big schools there. Tahole ki hobe janen, apnar modhhe theke ekta hole por amar mone hoi je sob neche jabe. Aar amader barite to nach gan cholchei saradin. Apni dekhun ekbar. Amra boro gorib, ei . . . (indistinct) . . . ese jan. Amra chaoar, matir ghore thaki. (You know what will happen then, if one program can be done there then I think everyone will take part in dancing. And in our home there are singing and dancing going on throughout the day. You please consider my request once. We are very poor . . . (indistinct) . . . please come, we stay in thatched mud hut.) Amar cheye adham ke, ami ei movement start korechilam challish taka dea. (Who is poorer than me, I began this movement with just forty rupees.) Ta to jani. Sob amar . . . apnake ami onusoron korchi onek bochor dhore. 1966 sal thekei amar mon apnar payer upore. Ta apni se jonne bhabben na. Se sob ja bolbar . . . ami je , apni janen je ami apnar khub boro bhokto. (I know that. Everything I . . . I have been following you for many years now, from 1966 only my mind is residing on your feet. You please don't worry about that. Whatever is to be said . . . I am, you please know that I am a big devotee of you.) *Ei jinish tar secret hochhe, yea (The secret of this thing is that,) tesam satata*-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam ( BG 10.10)) Amar kan ta ektu kala hoye gachhe. Satattor bochor boyesh amaro. Apnar theke ami matro char bochorer . . . (I am becoming little deaf, my age is seventy seven now, I am only four years . . . than you.) . . . (indistinct) Ta apnake seba korbar jonne bose achi. Keno amar jonne apni . . . (So I am waiting here just to serve you. Why for me you . . .) . . . (indistinct) Amake sokkole jane. India te ami, amar . . . (Everyone knows me. In India, my . . .) . . . (indistinct) Ha ha ha, I told . . . . . . (indistinct Hindi) Amar haat khub bhalo. Onek, enara sob jane. Mane ektu seba kore gele, mane boro boro byadhi sob, amar okhane bhir hoye jai loker. Ta apnake pabo bole, ami kothao jai na. Jei sunlam je apni aschen , ami tara tari ekhane ese bose achi. Apnar kacha kachi e bose thaki. (I am, mine . . . I am expert in that. All these people knows. Means I try to serve, all chronic diseases, people gathers in great number at my place. But only to see you I came. I don't go anywhere. The moment I heard that you are coming, I came hurriedly here and was waiting for you. I remain seated near you only.) Apnar . . . (Your . . .) E sob amar patient, era sokole amake chene. Ta ami bollam, baba amake, ekhan theke nore ami, jotokhhon na Prabhupāda aschen totokkhon. Sei jonne 29 tarikhe. Ta apni jedin jaben, oder sob bondobosto kore bolun. Sei din aponar jonne ami niche . . . (All these people are my patients, they all know me. I said to them, let me, I am not going to move anywhere till the time Prabhupāda is coming. For that reason since 29th. So when you are planning to go, tell them (your disciples) to make arrangements. That day I will be there below . . .) Ora je dine bolbe, ami se dine jabo. (When they (my disciples) will select a date, I will go that day.) Santite cholun. Ta apko to malum hai ke e sob jaiga . . . (indistinct) . . . apnar Gokuler moton lagbe. Okhane amra dos hazar gorib lok achi. Apni jodi ektu pododhuli den tahole amader oi nach gan bhalo . . . (Plan peacefully and come. You know very well about all these places . . . (indistinct) . . . you will feel like you have come to Gokula. We, about ten thousand poor people are staying there. If you kindly visit then our singing and dancing will be very good . . .) Mohaprabhu hochhen patita pabon. (Mahāprabhu is the deliverer of fallen souls.) Patita pabon. (Deliverer of fallen souls.) *Narottam Das Thakurer gan, patita*-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . . . (Narottama Das Thakura sang patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . . .) Achha, patita pavana. Amra sei upokar, apni kale je bollen upokar karna. Oi tai amader mane aaj athash bochor dhore cholche. (Well, deliverer of fallen souls. You were telling about doing benevolent activity yesterday. We are doing that for twenty eight years.) *Mo*-sama patita prabhu nā pāibe āra (Prārthanā 39). This is the appeal made by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, "My Lord, Your incarnation is for very, very fallen souls, and You'll not find anyone who is more fallen than me. Therefore my claim is first." Ami jokhon gelam aj, bhasa jani na sokole jongli lok. Ora abar, British ra bolche tribe, criminal tribe era. Karon ora goru toru uthie nea jai, dekhche badorer moto fol dekhle jhulche khai. Oder okhane gele, amar athash bochor. Amar pach ta school ache. High school ekhon ekta. Oder mane employment er boddo kosto. Sejonne khete khute okhane ekta . . . (When I first went there, I didn't know their language, all were forest dwellers. Britishers told that these tribe, they are criminally inclined. They used to steal cows etc. and if they saw some fruits hanging in the tree, they will eat it. In that tribal's place I am staying for twenty eight years. I have five schools there. High school is only one now. Getting employment from them is very difficult. That's why after hard work, there one . . .) Na na, okhane te sob jaiga royeche, ora sob . . . (No no, there are enough place available, they all . . .) Jaiga to ami kinichi aste aste. (Gradually I have purchased land there.) Ami bolchi, sekhane sob nijeder kheti, nijeder kapor, nijeder . . . (What I want to mean, there they can have their own agricultural activities, own clothes, own . . .) Sob, tai to bolchi, apni ekbar padadhuli din, apnake dekhabo. (Everything. That's what I am saying, you just come once, I will show you.) Ha? (Yes?) Apni obak, apnar khub anondo hobe. Apni jeta korte bolchen amra seta korchi. (You will be astonished, you will become joyful. What you are telling to do, we are already doing that.) Besh. (Very nice.) Apni ekbar ese jan. Amader ekhane pododhuli din. Amra boddo gorib. Apnake nebar moton shokti amader nei. Ta holeo amra ghare kore apnake nea jabo. (You just come once. You put the dust of your feet there. We are very poor. We don't have enough capacity to take you. Still we will carry you on our shoulder and take you there.) Jar Bhogoban sohai ache se abar gorib kothai. (Whom Lord is favouring how can he be poor.) Ta to ache. Ta na hole apnar songe dekha hoto na. Ami morbar age, ek e , bollam je amake Bhakti . . . Prabhupādaer songe ekbar dekha korie dao. Kal ratti bela, sara din apnar chinta, sondhe bela chinta. Ekhane ese dekhlam. Eikhanei bose achi, oke jiggesh korun. Ami eikhanei bose achi. Apnake ektu seba korbo, ei amar sokh. Sei jonne bhalo tel thel baby oil sob rekhechi. Apnake ektukhani mane changa . . . dekhun amar shokti jothesto ache, apnar theke. (Yes the Lord's favour is there or else I would not be able to see you. Before I die, I told him to fulfil my one wish, let me just once grant a meeting with bhakti . . . Prabhupāda. Yesterday night and all the day, in the evening I was only thinking about you. After coming here I saw you. Since then I am sitting here, ask him I am sitting here since then. Just wanted to give you a little service, that is my wish. For that I have kept good quality oil, baby oil with me. I want to make you little rejuvenated . . . see I am having enough strength, stronger than you.) Ha apnar to built well. (Yes you are well built.) Khub bhalo, keno. (Yes I am well built, because . . .) You are healthy . . . Era sob jane, how I revived them. Ekhankar sob lok amake chene. Ami bollam je Prabhupāda asbe, ora amar okhane ase. Ami bollam Prabhupāda asbe ami okhane gea bosbo. Keno apnar kotha ami dekhun dosh bochor dhore moner moddhe ache. Apni ja ja korchen, somosto tarikh by tarikh apnar somosto bole debo. Amar tin jon ache jara apnar somosto boi, amar okhane tin copy kore ase. Amader librery ta khub boro hoye gachhe, okhane mane, apni okhane ese ekbar amader ektu upodesh din. (They know everything, how I revived them. All people here knows me. I told them Prabhupāda will come, they all come to my place. So I told them Prabhupāda will come, I will go there and wait for him. See for ten years I was thinking about you. Whatever you are doing, I can tell you date by date all the events. We have three persons who reads all your books. Three copies of all your books comes to my place. Our library has become very big. You please come there and give us some advice.) Ha ha, ami jabo. (Yes yes, I will go.) Jongoler moddhe ele dekhun jongoler mongol hoye jabe. (You come to the forest and see that there will be auspiciousness in the forest.) Aar apnar, sune ja ekhon bujhechi . . . (So your, what I have understood by hearing from you . . .) Are, apni obak, apni gea dekhen jodi. Tar moddhe jodi apni Bhagobot sonen aar amader somosto Joydev songskrito, apnar khub anondo hobe. Apnar ekhane ache songskrito, recording tape ta ana hoi ni. To apni okhane cholun, apnake sara din amra nachie debo. Apni dekhbo, amader nach e dekhben sudhu. Amader okhane dance school royechhe.Chaitanya Mohaprabhu e to prothome dance arombho koran. Chaitanya Mohaprabhur age keu dance koran ni. (You will become amazed, If you go there and see. Moreover if you hear *Bhāgavatam* there and all our Jayadev's sangskrit, you will be very pleased. We have Sanskrit here, but the recording tape I couldn't bring. You simply go there, we will make you dance the whole day. You will see, you will see our dance only. We have a dance school there. It was Caitanya Mahāprabhu who first inaugurated the dancing. Before him on one performed dancing.) Drama also. Ei jonne amra sob . . . (That's why we all . . .) He is the first beginner of . . . (indistinct) . . . Uni goverment scholar chilen. Russia tasia somosto jaigai, khub, mane govt pathai oke. (She was a government scholar. The Government sends him to Russia and many other places.) Oh. Ei jokhon khub boro boro lok, boigganik . . . (indistinct) . . . rani, queen Elizabeth. To oi ekmatro ache je gea bujhie dei, je nacher . . . saradin to amader okhane oi nacer e chorcha, ganer chorcha, sob bhorti. Apni amar okhane ja songskrito sunben, apni kokhhono eto bhalo songskrito sonen ni. Eto poriskar. Amar Europe Amerikar jonne kori. Ora onek ase , amader chatrora sob bohu dur theke ase. Germany theke, Sweden theke. To apni ekbar gea pododhuli dea amader bachan. Ta apnar oi ek pododhulite amra aro lafie cholbo. Apni onumoti kore din, apni bole din. (When some big personalities, scientists . . . (indistinct) . . . queens, Queen Elizabeth. So she is the only one who goes and make them understand, this dancing . . . at our place throughout the day there are the practice of singing and dancing, all occupied. The Sanskrit that you will listen at my place, you haven't heard such Sanskrit pronunciation ever. So clear. We do this for Europe and America. Many from those places comes, many of our students comes from very far away places. From Germany, Sweden. You kindly come once and save us by putting the dust of your feet there. By just your one visit we will be highly encouraged. You grant your permission, you instruct them.) Apnar chele pule? (Do you have any children?) Amar ek chele bilete. Se BBC te kaj kore. Broadcasting. Or ekta nijer feature program ache - Question of faith. Se o khub bhokto. Se BBC te robibar 10:30 er somoi or ekta TV program thake. To okhane, okhane thake. Se sonnasi. Se bea tha kore ni. . . . (indistinct) . . . aar ei stri, amar jokhon haat pa bhenge jai. Amar ekta boro acciodent hoi. Amar haat pa nei. Sob lohar tukro tukro bose achhe. Aar ami ekta patient jokhon haspatale jachhilam, ekta gari dhakka mere fele dei . . . (indistinct) . . . to sei somoi uni Germanyr theke asen. Uni German noi, uni Bharotio. Germany te Indian government pathai, sekhanor jonno, amader Bharat natyam jake bole. Tarpore uni ese amar okhane, bolche tomar kach charbo na, tomar haat pa nei. To amake nea okhane gea amake chalie talie thik rakhe se. Aar amar to sara din kaj, gorib lokder kaj. Amra ekso teish jon lok nea arombho kori, 1948 sale. Ekhon amra dosh hazarer er besi lok, pach ta school. Or nijer o school achhe. Tateo ponchanno jon student, somosto bideshi. Tale ki hoi jibon amader bhoyanok kaje thakte hoi. (One of my son is staying overseas. He works in BBC. Broadcasting. He has his own feature program there, "Question of Faith". He is also a very good devotee. In BBC on Sunday 10:30 he has one TV program. So he stays there. He is a renunciate. He is not married . . . (indistinct) . . . and my wife, when I broke my hand and leg. I met with a big accident. I don't have my original hands and legs. Some iron pieces are inserted there. When I was going to a hospital with one of my patient, then one car hit me and threw me in the ground . . . (indistinct) . . . so at that time she came from Germany. She is not a German, she is Indian. Actually Indian government sent her to Germany, to teach dancing, what we call here Bharat natyam. After returning she came to my place. She said that she will not let me stay alone as I didn't have functional hands and legs. Then she took care of me and made me fit. I am to work for whole day, for poor people. We began with hundred and twenty three people in 1948. Now we are more than ten thousand people, five schools are there. She has one of her own school, there are fifty five student's in her school. All are foreigner. So in our life we are to remain busy with heavy workload.) Ha ha ha. (Yes, yes, yes.) *Aar amar boyesh to hoyei jachhe . . . (indistinct) . . . . tokhon jokhon sunlam je baba Prabhupāda aschen, tokhon mane no body can stop me now. Ta okeo likhechi Prabhupāda asben. To ekhane je apnader golmal. Ami oke nea aschilam apnake sonanor jonne. Somosto ostopate amader ekbar chomotkar, ostopath, puro Joydev songskrito, apni ekhane ese ekbar sonen. Amader e doya apnake kortei hobe. Amra jokhon eto seba korchi apnar jonne, apni ekbar payer dhulo din. Ekhon din thik kore din, ami sob bondo, je kore hok . . . (indistinct) . . . aar apnar sunun, ami to sob Jawaharlal Nehru bolun, somosto boro boro lok ami seba koerechi sob. Amar baritei sob ase. Indira Gandhi porjonto amar barite ese . . . aar apnar ekhane pododhulir jonne ami sob toiri kore bose achi, amake apnar payer dhulo ektu. Ami apnake, apni obak hoye jaben. Apni dekhben je apnar amader . . . ha ami to chole jabo porshu din sokalbela kalke Jonmastami kore. Amake adghonta ekdin, apnar somosto deho, ei Rolls-Royce gari apnar atto din choleche, oke ektu servicing dorkar. Apnar to dorkar nei, kintu apnake amader dorkar.To dekhun jodi Bhogoban kauke amar kache gari den, take jodi ami service na kori setao ekta pap. To apni jodi onumoti den, kichhu na, apni sudhu ektu suye thakben. Apni dekhun je Bhogoban kirokom chomotkar . . . (indistinct) . . . ami to ponchas bochor ei kaj korchi. Ponchas bochor. Ami . . . (indistinct) . . . 1947, 1927 e prothom MD, 2nd MD 31 e, Vienna. Tarpore dhorun ei ponchas sal dhore ei kaj e hochhe. Amar okhane sob, even Indira Gandhi thandi, ami jai na, ora amar okhane ese. Keno amar har, amra boli ostio pack. Har, muscle, ogulo, jegulo nurve gulo hochhe jhalie dei. Tate hoi ki dekhben apnar blood pressure thad presure sob sere jabe. (And my age is also increasing . . . (indistinct) . . . when I heard that Prabhupāda is coming, then you know no*-one can stop me now. I have written her also that Prabhupāda will come. But here in your place it's too disturbing. I was about to bring her so that you can hear. All our narration of Astapath, excellently done by us, Astapath, all Jayadev's Sanskrit, you go there are hear it once please. You must have to grant us this mercy. When we are serving you so much, you please visit there once. Now you schedule a date, I will arrange, by hook or by crook . . . (indistinct) . . . listen please, I have served all the big big personalities, like Jawharlal Nehru and others. They all come to my home. Even Indira Gandhi also came to my house . . . and for your visit I have made all arrangements, you please give us the dust of your feet there. I will show, you will be surprised. You will see that for you we . . . I will be leaving day after tomorrow morning after attending Janmastami festival tomorrow. Give me half an hour one day, all your body, your this body is like a Rolls-Royce car, it's running for so long, it needs little servicing. We know that you don't need that but we need you. So if God gives me someone's car and if I do not service it, that too is a sin. So if you kindly grant permission, it's nothing, you just have to lay down. You will see that how wonderfully God has . . . (indistinct) . . . I am doing this job for fifty years. Fifty years. I . . . (indistinct) . . . in 1947, no 1927 I got my first MD and second in 1931 at Vienna. Since then for last fifty years I am doing this job only. In my place everyone, even Indira Gandhi, I don't go to anybody's place, they come to me. Because on bone, we say ostio pack. Bone, muscle, all these and the nerves, I do rejuvenate them. As a result you will see, your blood pressure etc. all will be cured.) Ha apnar . . . (indistinct) . . . amar ei whole institute e ami ja bolbo ta hobe. Ami jodi morte boli, morbe. Ei je dictetorship, eta keno ora swikar korche? . . . (indistinct) . . . Uni ja bolchen eitai thik.Seta jodi hoi . . . (indistinct) (Yes your . . . (indistinct) . . . in my institute whatever I will say that is final. If I ask them to die, they will die. So this dictatorship, why are they accepting this? . . . (indistinct) . . . whatever he is saying that's actually correct. If that is the case . . . (indistinct) . . .) Amar o tai, apni ja bolchen tai thik. (Me too, whatever you are telling that's correct for me as well.) Seta jodi hoi, tahole to success hoye gelo. Ta na hole ekta . . . (indistinct) . . . Seta korte hole, . . . (indistinct) . . . yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā (SB 5.18.12) . . . (indistinct) . . . sudhu boktrita dea gele bipod . . . (indistinct) . . . Ta na hole loke dumre dumre dumre . . . (It it's so then success is achieved. Else some . . . (indistinct) . . . to do that . . . (indistinct) . . . Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā (SB 5.18.12) . . . (indistinct) . . . only to give lecture is dangerous . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise people will distort distort distort . . .) Amar o, ami jani seta. Amar opor apni dekhben bhoktir, nahole por oi jongoler moddhe jekhane athash sal thakchi. Nana rokom jongli, boro boro Ajogor sap nea amra bose achi. Kono bhoi nei. Kauke chini na. Sudhu gurur adesh. Jao tumi gea dekho, ora atto gorib amader. Ta apni dekhben je amader koto boro boro industry amra korchi. Hate toiri kora sob, amader oi jongoler lok sob toiri . . . (Mine also, I know that. You will see, devotion is on me, else in that forest I am staying for twenty eight years. There we are living with varities of forest dewellers, huge Pythons. We don't have any fear. We don't know anybody. Only the order of my guru —you go and stay there, they are so poor. You will be happy to see that we have made big big industries. All hand made things, those forest dewellers, they make all . . .) Hater e toiri, beshi kol kobjai na. (Handmade is good, don't use machines much.) Na na kolkobja noi. Ta holeo dekhun emon ekta somoi ese gache. (No no, not much machinery. Still you see such a time has come.) . . . (indistinct) Kol kobjar moddhe nei. Ta hole dekhun power na hole por chorka chole na. Tahole power station, nijeder station korte hoi ekta. Khub, apni dekhle, oi gobor dea e amra kori. (We are not into machines. Still you see without power the wheels don't move. In that case power station, we are to make our own power station then. Good if you see, we do it by using cow dung.) Self help. Ha? Gobor deai kori. Cow dung gas fas sob royeche . . . (indistinct) . . . aste aste. Emon kichu ekta birat byapar noi. Houar upai o nei. (What? We do it by cow dung. Cow dung gas is there . . . (indistinct) . . . gradually. It's not such a big thing. There is no scope also to make it big.) Na na, jinish ta hochhe, our life should be simplified. (No no, actually the thing is that our life should be simplified.) Absolutely. We shall not unnecessarily complication na. Amader to ekebare simple. Amra je bari ghor dor kori, sob chomotkar. Sokole bole khub bhalo, ekebare simple. Aar amra ekta gram korchi ekhon. (Ours are totally simple. The house that we make, all are wonderful. Everyone says those are very good, totally simple. Now we have made a village.) *Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya (BG 6.17). Minimum. Dignity bujhechen. (Minimun. Just a matter of dignity you see.) (indistinct) . . . find out this verse. *Yukta*-ceṣṭasya karmaṇā ? *Where is Bhagavad*-gītā ? Apnar sob amar okhane ache. Ta apni ekdin kaj korun, ami ekhane apnar payer dhare bose thakbo, ami to norchi na. Ete ki ache. Apnar jodi ek ghonta somoi thake. Ami apnar jonne mane Amerika theke je, ekebare pobitro tel jeta hoi, mane jol, baby oil, baby der newborn baby der, rekhechi. Apnii ,amake ektu khani jodi . . . apni dekhben, amar tahole khub bhalo, amar khub bhalo haat. Apni bujhte parben. Aar apnar seba ami ektu korte chai morbar age. Dekhun parshod na thakle por, apnader ke bachie rakhbar moto lok nei. Amra sob apnar parshod sob. (All your books are there with me. You please do one thing, I will just sit beside your feet, I am not going to move anywhere. It's very simple. If you have one hour free time. From America I have arranged, totally sanctified oil and water, means water, baby oil, oil for newborn baby, I have kept with me. If you please just a little . . . you will see, I will feel good, my hands are very expert on this. You will realise. And before I die I wish to render some little service to you. See if associates are not there, no one is here to keep you alive. We all are your associates only.) Kripa kore amake rakhun.Din kotok kaj kori. (Please do protect me. Let me work for few more day's.) Dekhun parshod na thakle, Mohaprabhu Chaitanya sob, ora oke to, apnader sob rakhbar jonne prarthona korte hoi Bhogobaner kache. Dekhun apnar hochhe dos inchi pipe, amra hochhi one eighth inch pipe. Apnar je, je Bhogoban apnake or moddhe dea thele pathachhen, jara parshod tara to thik regulate kore rakhte hoi . . . (indistinct) . . . sei apni bhabun. Apni, ami jani, apnar kono chinta nei. (See, if associates are not there, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's all, for Him they, to keep you people alive prayrs are to be offered to the Lord. You are having a ten inch pipe, we are one eighth inch pipe. What your, what God is giving you, through you what God is pushing down, those who are the associates, they need to regulate the force . . . (indistinct) . . . so you please think over it. You, I know, you have nothing to worry about.) *Apni bolun, parshod bolte gele, kṛṣṇa*-varṇaṁ viṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam (SB 11.5.32), Parshadoi. (You say, to say about associates, kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam . Parshadoi , associates.) Eita eita eita amar khub bhalo lage. (This one I like very much.) *Kṛṣṇa*-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgo upāṅgā pārṣadam yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Amra to parshoder upasona koe thaki. (We are the worshipper of the associates.) (chuckles) Na na, apni apni apni nijeke nije apni dekhen e ni, bhaben e ni. Amra jani apni ke. Parshoderai jane. Apni je bollen biswas koro. Ami jodi matha khureo jodi mori , ke aar biswas korbe? Apni bollen biswas koro, moro, more jabe. Era sob parshod. Apni jodi amake bolen, tumi more jao ekhane, ami more jabo. Sudhu apnar kothar jonne noi, kenona apni amra apnar parshod, apnake jibon dea apnake rakhte hoi. Ta na hole por monusso jatir upor kono . . . upai nei. Jekhan je Bhogobaner bikash, sekhane dekhben sob lok take bachie rakhbar jonne. (No no, you have not seen yourself, have not thought about it. We know who you are. Only associates knows. You told us to believe. If I, even if I try hard, who will believe me? You said—please keep faith. If you tell them to die, they will die. They are all associates. If you tell me, you die here, I will die. Not only for your words but because we are your associates, by sacrificing life you have to be protected. Otherwise on the human race nothing . . . no way. Were there is the manifestation of God, you will see many people sacrificing there to keep him alive.) *Bhagavaner upasona hoi sa*-parshod. (God's worship is done along with His associates.) Edike amar kan bhoyanok kala, tobuo apnar sob kotha ami sunchi. (Just see my ear is almost deaf and still I am able to hear all your words.) . . . (indistinct) . . . Gopal. Go paal. (. . . (indistinct) . . . Gopal. Maintainer of the cow's.) Gopal oh. (Oh Gopal.) Mane jini Go ke palon koren. Tar parshod. Bhogobaner goru houa, o parshod chara hote pare na. Ei je Bhogoban emni kore alingon korche, e sadharon bachur? Do you think they are ordinary calves? (Means who maintains the cows. His associates. To become a cow of the Lord, without being an associate it's not possible. Here see how Lord is embracing, is it an ordinary calf? Do you think they are ordinary calves?) To be embraced by Kṛṣṇa. *They are associates. They are associating with Lord as calf, as cow. Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ (BS 5.37). Nija-rūpa . Amar nijer rup dekheo bolben, Janama abadhi hamo rupo niharenu nayana na tiropito. Ei je ruper ekta khela cholche, lakho lakho yuga . . . (indistinct) . . . nu, tobu hiye juralu nayanu. Ei dekhun apnake dekhchi, aar kono dekhbar nei amar. Sob pash. Amra sob durer theke , kacher theke sob pash. Jonom jonom dhore dekhchi. (You are saying to see my own form, since birth I am seeing different forms but still my eyes are not satiated. That this game of form is going on, for millions of years . . . (indistinct) . . . by seeing you my eyes are satisfied.) *In Vṛndāvana, the calves, the cows, the trees, the land, the water—everyone, ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ . That is expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Cit-śakti . There are three energies: spiritual, material and marginal. So Vṛndāvana affairs means expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa . Sac-cid-ānanda. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Rasa , mellow. Everyone is trying to relish some mellow. Here in this material world we get family to taste some mellows. One kind of mellow is wife, one kind of mellow are children, one kind of mellow is the servants, one kind of mellow is the friends, one kind of mellow is the properties. They are all mellows, rasa . Unless there is some taste, why one should be hankering after all these things? Why one is hankering after some woman or some man or some friends or for children? One who has got no children, he's hankering after some child. He's expecting, "When I shall get a child?" The rasa . There is husband-wife rasa , but there is no rasa of the child. Therefore they are praying, "When we shall get a child?" So there is another rasa . So raso vai saḥ . He is the reservoir of rasas . So if we derive all the rasas from the Supreme, because He is the reservoir of rasas . . . *Akhila*-rasāmṛta-sindhu . *Akhila*-rasāmṛta , yes. Akhila-rasāmṛta-sindhu . So you can have all the rasas , and that is the origin of bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu . In bhakti , that rasa , you become in the ocean of rasa . You're hankering after rasa . There is a Vedic injunction, raso vai saḥ labdhvānandi ānand ī. One who has got the rasa , labdhvānandi , then he gets the real ānanda . That ānanda-cinmaya-rasa expansion is Kṛṣṇa's calves, cows, gopī friends, cowherd boy friends, Nanda, Yaśodāmāyi, so many. So to be Kṛṣṇa conscious means to participate with these rasas. It is not dry. It is not dry, like, simply so 'ham , so'ham , finished. So 'ham , they do not know the meaning. So 'ham means I belong to the same rasa . I also eligible to enjoy the same rasa . But Kṛṣṇa is . . . (break) . . . and the calves, the cows are enjoying the rasa as predominated. Just like husband and wife, they are enjoying, both. But one is enjoying as the husband, predominator. The husband is forcefully dragging the wife. She's also . . . while she is dragged by force, she enjoys. That is another rasa. But there is rasa . Combined together it becomes rasa . Similarly, Kṛṣṇa does not enjoy this material. This material rasa is the perverted reflection of that cinmaya-rasa . So we have to get ourselves nil of all these material rasas , and we have to be situated in the cinmaya . Then our . . . ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Then our life is perfect. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Rasa is there. Here perverted reflection. The perverted reflection . . . my Guru Mahārāja used to say to taste milk in white, what is called, lime water. White lime water, it looks like milk. But it is not milk. It is different thing. Similarly, we are trying to taste the rasa of milk in lime water. Therefore we are baffled. That is true. Whole universe is rasa . Even in Mars they're trying to find humidity. What is humidity, rasa . Everything is moving on the rasa only. We are floating on rasa . Our aim of understanding this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not a sentiment. It is a great science, great science. Otherwise how we are writing so many books? If it was a dry . . . Nothing happens in dryness. *Why people are accepting our books? You'll be surprised, we are selling book to the extent of six lakhs of rupees per day. Daily. Daily we are selling six lakhs of rupees' worth all over the world. So people think philosophy, religion, dry subject matter. If it was dry subject matter, how they could purchase so many books? It is ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa . They are getting for the first time, here is real ānanda . Therefore they are appreciating. Everyone, learned circle, they are giving appreciation. In . . . (indistinct) . . . foreign circles. So, there was no such literature. It is the first time. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇaṁ vaiṣṇavānām . . . (SB 12.13.18). So unless they're really relishing some rasa, how they are purchasing? This is the first distribution of ānanda-cinmaya-rasa throughout the whole world, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So I am very happy that you are also very . . . (indistinct) . . . let us join together, we shall raise . . . We can consult and fix a date, what suits Prabhupāda best, then I will arrange for the rest at that end. When are you leaving Hyderabad? I'm leaving just after . . . you see, I was leaving long ago, but he was coming. So I will leave 19th morning plane. That is the day after the Janmāṣṭamī tomorrow. Night, whatever festivity, I'll be here. I think there will be some saṅkīrtana also. After that, early morning, I'll catch the plane and go up to Madras, and there I shall fly again to my tila (my small hill top place). It is not very far, as you are thinking, but you know Kodaikanal is the, prithibir moddhe naki sobcheye bhalo jaiga, climatologically. Amar ichhe je amar ja kichu achhe apnar possessione dea, okhane era je kaj kormo korche gorome, majhe majhe gea ektu recharge. (Kodaikanal, supposedly it's the best place in the whole world, climatologically. I wish that whatever I have I will give those unto your possession, what these people are working here in such hot environment, they can visit there sometime to recharge.) Because they are recharging the battery of the urban line. But they also will be recharging that battery in a nice cosmic place. And that . . . Amader je rasa, our rasa, it can be tasted by the topmost intellectual man. (The rasa that we have, our rasa , it can be tasted by the topmost intellectual man.) Of course. And it can be tasted by the lowest . . . No intellect at all. I know that. *But why? Because this intellect, highest or lowest, that is in relationship with the body. But it is beyond the body. It is not . . . sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya (BG 14.26). It is beyond the three guṇas . The body is of the material guṇas—sattva , rajas , tamas . One man is good man, one man is passionate, one is foolish. Guṇa . Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo'sya . Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhunjante guṇān (BG 13.22)? (aside) Find out this. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhunjante . . . beginning with puruṣaḥ . Everything is explained, Bhagavad-gītā . *Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is matchless. We are reading and re-reading, and every time we find much more, you see? Terrific. And you have put the simplest method—"As it is," as you say. Why complicate, tika this . . . that is why . . . you know, we can be safely called intellectuals. But, you know, we are tired of it. Yes. Tired. We cannot find anything. Neti neti vicāra te patra patra (sangskrit) . . . impossible. Then what do you get out of the life? The joy, rasa, apni je bollen, (The joy which you just have mentioned), that is the main substance. To get it you cannot get neti neti, Mohaprabhur ja hoyechilo . . . (indistinct) . . . (To get it you cannot get neti neti , what Mohaprabhu experienced . . . (indistinct) . . .) *Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi (BG 13.22). (aside) Find out. Puruṣaḥ . Why you cannot find this verse? What you are . . . Puruṣaḥ prakṛti , bhuñjante . . . *Tad guṇān. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi . You did not find? Eta apnar *Bhāgavatam* series na tinte volume? (Is this your *Bhāgavatam* series or just three volume?) *Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Seventeen volumes. Seventeen. I have only two. Can I . . . is there any set available? I would like to buy the rest. Yes. *Puruṣa , the living entity, he is now within the material energy. Prakṛti*-sthaḥ . Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho . . . *Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi . Stho hi . *Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . On account of his being in touch with the material energy, he has to suffer or enjoy the modes of material nature. Modes of material nature, and because, just like in your medical science one is suffering from a certain type of disease on account of his being infected by the similar virus or . . . what is called? Virus. Ha? Virus. Virus. Virus. Animate in, apnader theory ami porechi. (Virus. Animate in, I have read your theory.) Now we know even the inanimate is animate, but by virology only it is changing. All the unanimate subject is slowly being transformed into animate. We are all convinced the whole process is the same. It's a terrific science now, virology. Latest, we have discovered. I am also working on virology quite a bit for all the virus disease and all. And we can eliminate them by only vacuum. My whole cure, they call it miracle and all this nonsense, it is only creating a vacuum which automatically takes away. This virology will be complete . . . When we accept this. . . . when you accept this. I know. (laughs) And I have accepted long ago. Because I felt, as a sincere worker, medicine doesn't interest me. What interests me is the cure. My profession is to cure, not to study the medicines. That is the cure. *Here it is very clearly stated that kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). The virology, infection, kāraṇam , that is the kāraṇam . Kāraṇam guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu . Why there are varieties of life? One is very intelligent . . . You know also in Vedic sangit , Tamasa bahurupena bestitaha karma hetu na . . . (indistinct) . . . sukha dukhha samanwita (Sanskrit). Same thing. Same thing, no? Everything has light. Only it is in transformation by that formula, it is inanimate to animate. That is what is happening all around us. *So, if from . . . just like medical science . . . it is also a medical science. Bhavauṣadhi. It is . . . auṣadhi means medical science. This is bhavauṣadhi . By this treatment one becomes relieved from the material disease. Bhavauṣadhi . Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra*-mano-'bhirāmāt . But the medicine is so nice that it is pleasing to the ear and to the heart. The medicine pleasing to the ear? What is that. *Hari*-nāma . Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Apni amader okhane cholun, amader o khub bhalo naam . . . (indistinct) . . . amader Bangali dhoroner sob amra korechi, amader recording e ache sob. Apnake sonabo. Apni khub anando paben. Amader ek family ache Mohana Nanda, tini Deoghar e thaken, tini ekhane ese amader record korie jan. Aar amar stri to saradin naach neai ache, Bhogobaner nach. Apnar khub bhalo lagbe, apni ektu. Aram noi, ekebare somadhir moddhe apni ese jaben. Cholun na, oder hukum kor din. (You please come to our place, we also have very good nama . . . (indistinct) . . . we have made it in Bengali style, in our recording everything is there. We will play for you. You will be very happy. We have one family named Mohana Nanda, he stays in Deoghar, he comes here and makes the recording. And my wife is busy all day with her dancing, for God. You will feel very happy, you please. Not only feel comfort, you will reach samadhi stage there. Please instruct them, let's go.) Jedin ora fix up korbe. (When they will fix up the date?) Ha? (What?) Ora jedin fix up korbe. (When they will fix up the date?) Ha oi je hukum. (Yes that is called order.) We decide a date, and take . . . not too . . . we have no means for having too many people, but about dozen people, or ten people can come. And they will have all facility. We can arrange a station wagon and everything there. You have to come up to Kodaikanal Road Station. And if you like we shall arrange for your departure from Madras . . . (indistinct) . . . Ami sathe. (I will be with you.) We will come with you. Apni . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda ke rekhe asben. We will accompany you all the way. Aapko aur Surana shab ko bol denge, aap dono . . . (indistinct) . . . le jayenge. Tahole choli. Apnake aar, apnake aar . . . apni ekdin hukum korun, apnar seba tahole okhanei apnake korbo. (I will accompany you. We will come with you. You . . . (indistinct) . . . take Prabhupāda to stay there. We will accompany you all the way. I will intimate you and Mr. Surana, you two . . . (indistinct) . . . will take you. Goodbye then. Your, your . . . you just order one day. Your service, I will serve you there then.) Ha ha. (Yes yes.) When you come there. Ekhane boddo golmal. (It's very noisy here.) I'll get everything ready. It is settled you are coming at there earliest. Yes. Apni bole din kobe. (You tell me the date.) When they'll make a program, conveniently, I shall go. Ami, dekhiye. (I, you see.) I'm leaving on 29th morning. If you can give me a word by tomorrow evening. Not 29th; 19th. Today is 17th. They cannot decide so soon. : Janmāṣṭamīr pore? (After Janmāṣṭamī?) Janmāṣṭamī pore. (Yes after Janmāṣṭamī.) Apnar vyas pujar . . . (Your vyasa puja's . . .) Another program is that we are going that side during . . . (indistinct) Kanyakumari te jaben naki? Odike jaben naki? (Will you go to Kanyakumari? Will you go in that direction?) Ha. (Yes.) To cholun amra songe jabo. Amader barir kachei to. Palni te asun. Palni, Kentur khub bhalo area. Kumar. (Well we will also go with you then. It's near to our home. You go to Palni. Palni, Kentur, very good places, Kumar also.) So we have to see . . . (indistinct) . . . (background comments by devotees) You also send this. Yes, I have to take little time. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Please come in. Jaya . Prabhupāda ki jaya . Give them little prasādam . Oder ekta din thik korte bole din. (Please tell them to fix a date.) Ha ora korlei ami chole jabo. (Yes once they fix a date I will go.) He's a life member from Bangalore. He was one of our first members in South India. I saw you? Give them prasādam . Last night at the airport. Give them prasādam . They had prasādam . Aap idhar ka hi rehne wale hai? From Bangalore? (Do you stay here? Or from Bangalore?) Hum Bangalore rehne wale hai. Aap bahut uttam kar rahe hai. Bhagawan ka prachar kar rahe hai. (I stay at Bangalore. You are doing a very noble job. You are preaching about God.) Iske bina to kuch janna nahi hai. (I don't know anything else than this.) Ji Maharaj? (Yes Mahārāja?) *Without bhagavad*-bhakti , this so-called advancement of civilization is simply decorating the dead body. Correct. Cent percent correct. What is the use of decorating the dead body? Correct. Yes. We must decorate real . . . *And this body is . . . either dead or alive, Bhagavad*-gītā condemns: gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ (BG 2.11). So these rascals are interested with this body, and they're proud of their advancement of education. And Bhagavad-gītā says nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . So they are passing as great scientists, philosophers, politicians, philanthropists, but all apaṇḍitāḥ. Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . That means apaṇḍita . : Apnar doya na hole ki kore hobe mosai? (Unless your mercy is there how can it be?) Ami to doya korbar jonne to sara duniya ghure berachi. (I am travelling all over the world to give mercy.) : Ei to bolchi dhonnobad dilum apnake, khub beshi. (That's what I am saying, I am thanking you for that, a lot of thanks.) (laughter) *And the first thing of Bhagavad*-gītā lesson is that aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān (BG 2.11): "You are talking like a learned man, but you are rascal." Apaṇḍitaḥ . One who is not educated, he's a rascal. So He's indirectly saying: "This kind of lamentation is not for the paṇḍita . It is for the rascal." So whole world is interested with this body, and Bhagavad-gītā's teaching begins condemning the concept of body. Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Nobody knows this. And they are very learned scholars in Bhagavad-gītā . : Ha ha, apnar doya holei to learned bola jai, nahole ki kore bola jai? (When you shower your mercy then one can become learned, otherwise how can one be said as learned?) *All these rascals, they're claiming to be learned scholar of Bhagavad*-gītā . Anyhow, humlog, We are lucky souls, that we are surrendered souls. (Anyhow, we, we are lucky souls, that we are surrendered souls.) Ha, humko sab miljhul karke, ye jo andolon hai isko achhi tara se samhalna. (Yes, we all will come together and this movement that is going on, we have to maintain it nicely.) Correct. Yeh to akele . . . (I am alone . . .) Nahi nahi Bhagwan ka ichha hai , sab ka duty hai . . . (No no, It's the Lord's will, all of us have responsibility . . .) Whatever is done, it is by single man's effort. If all our actually leaders, they take up, then India will be glorified. They'll feel . . . yes, they're expecting. Outside India, people, they expect that there is something better knowledge in India. Therefore as soon as some svāmīs or yogī goes there, they come. But they cheat. Many have come to cheat. These rascals, I shall say that, sir, they do not know anything, and they go there for teaching yoga . And they are bogus. Bogus, bogus. So many bogus people are going. They do not know what is yoga . They do not know what is what. What that is truth. They don't know. And they get cheap money and women and that's all. That is their business. Aap Bharat ko ashirbad kariye. Iha Bhagabat dharma, Sanatan dharma ka prachar khub beshi hoye. (You shower your blessings upon India. Let the Bhagavad dharma , Sanatan dharma be spread extensively here.) Aap log sab . . . (indistinct) . . . join kijiye, dekhye na abhi Bharat ka chehara badal jayega. (You all . . . (indistinct) . . . you join this movement, just see the face of India will change.) Badal jaye to achhi bat hai. Abhi to . . . (If it get's changed then it will be very good. But now . . .) Jaroor jayega. (Surely it will change.) Ha, jaroor jayega. (Yes, it will surely change.) Kyun ki Bharat abhi bhoola nahi. (Because India still haven't forgotten.) Nahi. Yeh to Bhagawan ka bhoomi hai. (Yes. This is the land of the Lord.) Yeh jabardasti isko bhulaya ja raha hai. (Now people are made to forget forcibly.) Haan, Bhagwan ka bhumi hai. Yeh to politician log ghuma rahe hai isko. (laughs) Bhagwan ka bhumi hai ye. (Yes, this is the land of the Lord. Only these politician's are making things distorted. (laughs) This is the land of the Lord.) To ab ek. . . (indistinct) . . . karke Hari kirtna kijiye. Gao gao me. (So you do one thing . . . (indistinct) . . . perform Hari kirtana . Village to village.) Apne paas bhi Thakur bari hai, swami Yashonand dekha hai . . . (indistinct) . . . kuch dharam hai. (At my place also there is a temple, Swami Yashonand have seen . . . (indistinct) . . . we are also religious.) *He has a temple. The whole third floor of his house is a temple. He has Sītā*-Rāma, Kṛṣṇa, Gopāla. He has big temple. They have saṅkīrtana every night. Every morning and night. Hamare Guruji to Vrindaban ke, aap jante hai. Rang Ji ke bari bagiche me rehte the. Jagad Guru swami Raghunath acharya. Aap to jante hai, Vrindaban gaye hai aap bhi. (My guru is from Vṛndāvana, you might be knowing. He stays in the big garden of Rang Ji. His name is Jagad Guru Swami Raghunath Acarya.) Mai to Vrindaban me hi raha. Abhi Radharani humko bhagaya. (I was staying in Vṛndāvana only. Then Radharani made me run.) Bhaga diya! Radharani ka prachar karna hai to bhagayega ji. (Oh she made you run! Of course Radharani will make you run to preach about her.) (laughter) Ho giya. (Now it's done.) Bhag giya tab hi to achha hua. Aab to lakho ka uddhar hoga, lakho ka. Uha baithe rehte tab to lakho ka nahi hota. Yaha to lakho ka uddhar hoga. Sare dunia ka ho raha hai. (You ran away then only such a good thing have happened. Now millions will be saved, millions. Had you been sitting there then millions could not have been saved. Now millions will be saved. It's happening all over the world.) Isiliye to, uo Radharani bhaga bhi deta hai. (That's why I am saying, sometime Radharani can make you run also.) Bilkul bilkul. Mahatma ka shrap bhi asirvad hota hai. Radharani to prem hai. Uo to Ma hai. Ma to bete ko achha ke liye bhejta hai. Bahut sundar karya ho raha hai. Humko to bahut santosh hai, bara anand hai. (Of course, of course. The curse of a saintly person is actually a blessing. Radharani is love. She is the mother. For the benefit of the son, the mother sends her son away. Now such wonderful activities are going on. I am highly satisfied, very happy.) That Raṅganātha temple is that temple where they do not allow us in. So Sampat Kumar and all of these paṇḍitas , they will sign one letter trying to request them, also with the Purī people, to request them to let us in. While they are all here they will do that. Also Sampat Kumar was thinking that in November and December in South India the weather is nice because the rainy season is finished, and it would be a very good time to go and visit many of the temples. He personally knows many people in all the big temples: Shri Rangam, Kañcipuram, Mahabalipuram, Tirupati. They could arrange for receptions and programs. *Hum abhi tak Bharat varsh ka divya bhumi ka dekha nahi. Hum ghar chor kar ke Vrindavan me ake baith gaya. Fir Vrindavan se Amerika chala gaya. (Until now I haven't totally seen the divine land of Bhārata*-varṣa. After leaving home I went to Vṛndāvana and was sitting there. Then from Vṛndāvana I went to America.) Amerika chala gaya. (He went to America.) : Vrindavan me to . . . (indistinct) . . . (In Vrindavan . . . (indistinct) . . .) Amerika jana nahi to agga hua, yea sab jaga prachar karne ke liye bhej diya . . . (There was order to go to America, he was sent to preach all over the world . . .) : . . . (indistinct) sanskrit . . . Amrit hai Bhagwan, amrit . . . (God is nectar, nectar . . .) : . . . (indistinct) Yeh to zahar hai dunia . . . (indistinct) . . . dunia is a poison. God is amritam.. . . (indistinct) . . . Just opposite na. Das koti ashirbad kariye aap ke charno ki . . . (This world is poison . . . (indistinct) . . . world is poison. God is nectar . . . (indistinct) . . . they are just opposite. Please bless me ten million times with the dust of your feet . . .) . . . (indistinct) . . . iska bandobast karie. (. . . (indistinct) . . . please arrange for this.) Ji. Oh to ho raha hai. Yes sab keya ho raha hai Maharaj? Ye to sab bandobast ho raha hai, nahi. (Yes sir. That is already happening. What all this activities are meant for Mahārāja? All these are that arrangement only.) Lekin yeh to mushkil hai, to iha do char mahina lega na, Government . . . (But there is difficulty, if it takes few months here then government . . .) Government ka thoda abhi policy, aap ashirbad karie to . . . (The policy of the government now somewhat unfavorable, if you shower your blessings then . . .) Is waje se, isliye, jab tak Bharat ke log . . . (indistinct) . . . (That's why, until the people of India . . . (indistinct) . . .) Politics nahi, government jo hai na, bhakt bane hai, tab tak. (Not about politics, the government that is here, let them become devotee, till then . . .) Nahi nahi, government ka baat nahi hai. Bolta hai ki yeh jo prachar karjo, jabtak Indian log, samajh rahe hai na. Yeh mushkil se bahar se ate hai . . . (indistinct) . . . (No no, it's not about government. I am saying that this preaching activity, until Indian people, are you getting my point. These people comes from outside with difficulty . . . (indistinct) . . .) Nahi, karenge. Aap ke ashirbad hai inke upar haat hai to sab kam hoga. (Yes, we will do. Your blessings are there, you have kept your hand upon him, so everything will happen.) Nahi nahi aap sunie na. (No no, you please listen.) Ji ji. (Yes sir.) Jaise yeh log sahajog karte hai. (The way these people (foreigners) are cooperating.) Ha, sab log karenge. (Yes, all will do.) Indian log karte . . . (Had Indian people also . . .) Karenge, milke karenge. (They will also do, we will do it together.) (indistinct) . . . Indians, they are not coming. Intelligent, educated Indians, they are not coming . . . (indistinct) . . . Boliye sabko, aap log milke samjhaie. (You tell everyone, convince them together.) Swamiji bolte hai ki sabko samjhaiye, jab Bharat me baithe hai . . . (Swamiji is telling that we should tell everyone, when we are sitting in India itself . . .) Ha, especially South Indians. (Yes, especially South Indians.) Ha, inko samjhake . . . (Yes, to make them understand . . .) South Indian. : Jo bhi inke sath milke kam hi hai. (Whatever it may be, the job has to be done with them together.) There, still their Indian original culture is still there in South India. Other parts of India, they are not now . . . (indistinct) : Correct. South India . . . (indistinct) Swamiji bolte hai iha ka bhi aap prachar kariye. Sabko pakarke inke sath milake is karya ko badhana chahiye . . . (indistinct) . . . yeh iha ka sabse bara . . . (indistinct) . . . south India ka. To yeh , agar isme bhag liya to sab kam ho jayega. (Swamiji is saying that you people also began preaching here. Get everyone and bring them together and spread the preaching activity . . . (indistinct) . . . he is the biggest . . . (indistinct) . . . of south India. If he takes part in this then all the job will be accomplished.) Isliye to aapko bol raha hu. Indian our American milkar kam karenge. (That's why I am telling you people. Both Indian and American will have to work together.) Milkar kam karenge. (We will work together.) To isse bada asar parega, prabhab parega. (Then there will be great effect, good influence will be there.) Jaroor prabhab parega. (Of course it will have influence.) Yeh to hai, aap Indian ko bulaiye. Sab mil kar ke gao gao me jaye.Ye jo bus hai hum log ka . . . (indistinct) . . . kahi bhi gao me giya, baith giya. Bhagawan ka murti hai, seba puja hoga, uha prasad bitaran hua . . . (indistinct) . . . (These people (foreigners) are here, you bring the Indians. Let them go villege after villege together. We have bus with us . . . (indistinct) . . . any time visit a villege and sit there. God's Deity is present, so worship and service will happen, then prasadam serving also will be done . . . (indistinct) . . .) : Har gao me jayega? (Will they go to every village?) Ha, nahi bus me baithke sab le jayenge, prachar karenge. (No, they will take everyone by bus and will be preaching there.) Ha. Yeh to mazood hai . . . (indistinct) . . . jada nahi, ek dafa inka , ek dafa unka. Abhi arrangement kijiye. Ye log ko bhi mazood hai. Abhi kuch din me aa jenge. Achha sikshit. (Yes. These people are here . . . (indistinct) . . . not too much, once their turn then next time others. Please make the arrangements now only. These people are present here. Within few days they will come. Well educated.) Ji ji. (Yes, yes.) Jo samajh sake. (Who will be able to make them understand.) Bilkul. (Very true.) To, dekhiye abhi to hum . . . (So you see, now we . . .) We have got buses. We have got buses—two, three. Any number of. It is very simple method, that we combine together, Indian and foreigners. Go in buses. Kahi bhi baithe. Kahi bhi baithe. (You may sit anywhere. You may sit anywhere.) Bhagawan sarbatra hai, sab uska hi seba karna hai. (God is present everywhere, we all are supposed to serve Him.) Bhagwan ka murti hai. Seva puja hua, bhog hua, sabko prasad dijiye. Bas dekhiye keya hua. Yeh log to majood hai, aap log kuch le aiye, abhi kam suru hoga. (We have a Diety of the Lord. Worship and service will happen, bhoga offering will be done, distribute prasada to all. Then you see what happens. These people are already present here, you bring some people, we will begin the work now.) Karenge maharaj. (We will do it Mahārāja.) Koi mushkil nahi. (It's not at all difficult.) Nahi karte hai. Bangalore ate hai, jitna ho sakte hai, hum log bhi karte hai. (Yes let's do it. Let's go to Bangalore, as much as possible, we will also try to do.) Now it should be organized movement. This is simply . . . Aap bhi ek dafa Bangalore ane ki kripa kariye. (You also please visit Bangalore once.) Ha, jaroor jayenge. (Of course, I will go.) You must also come in Bangalore once. Then it will be all . . . Iska. (Regarding this issue) Immediately think over that these Europeans, Americans are there. Now take up the association of another, at least one dozen . . . (indistinct) . . . Indians, and let us go together, gao to gao (village to village) . . . what do you think about it? Bas achha hi hoga, Bhagwan ka prachar hoga. Sab jaga nam kirtan hoga. (It will be good, God's preaching will happen. Everywhere there will be nama kirtana .) We could go from Madras . . . Anywhere. Anywhere. Any village. All the villages . . . You start from anywhere and go anywhere and sit down and chant. Sab bhoomi ko . . . (All the land . . .) *In India, Bhārata*-bhūmi jaha hari-kīrtana sunega, (In India, land of Bharata, whenever people will here hari kirtana ,) thousands will come. That is India. You won't have to advertise that, No, rom rom me hai. (No, it's in every pore.) *"There is hari*-kīrtana . Come." No. As soon as you begin, immediately thousands. As soon as there will be sugar grain, immediately ants will come. Ants will come. It is like that. This is a fact. : Correct, correct. Hundred per cent correct. Bas jaha mridang baja sab log aa jayenge kirtan karte. (As soon as the sound of mrdanga will be heard, all the people will come to take part in kirtana .) Ye jo Bharat bhumi me janma hota hai. (When one takes birth in the land of Bharata.) Bilkul. (Very true.) Ye Bhagawat me hai aap to jante hai, Debta log prarthana karte ki kuch humara punna agar rahe geya to humko Bharat me janme. (This is in Bhagavat , you might be knowing, demigods are praying that if we have some pious credit left then let us take birth in the land of Bharata.) Bharat me janma de. Bharat ke to rom rom me Bhagwan hai, usme keya. (Let us take birth in Bharata. In every particle of Bharata, God consciousness is there—there's nothing strange in it.) : Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā . Iska bandobast kijiye. (Please make arrangements for this.) Immediately. Just get one dozen good—I mean, good or bad, it doesn't matter—who is ready to work for this purpose. And our men are ready. Our buses are ready. So let us go. There is no question of selecting place. Anywhere. Anywhere. : Any place, anywhere, all the places. You go and find out some good place for camping and begin kīrtana . Get down from the bus and begin kīrtana . Then all friends will come immediately. They will offer shelter, they will offer food—everything. Ha yeh to Bharat ki parampara, chali ati hai sadi se. (Yes this is the tradition of Bharata, going on for ages.) One thing is that their difficulty is language. Indians are there, they can speak on the local language. They can explain everything. Yes. Therefore wanted. Swamiji Bhagwan ki seba ke liye to hum log aye hai chinta nahi. (Swamiji, we have come for the service of the Lord, you please don't worry.) : Chinta kahe ko hai? (Why there will be worry?) Swamiji to sabka leader hai. (Swamiji will be the leader for all.) : (indistinct) . . . Tirupati me jake, Tirupati me Balaji ka darshan, Padmavati ka darshan, oha sare jake, Bhagwan ka darshan le karke, oha bhi bhajan our kirtan karke . . . (. . . (indistinct) . . . going to Tirupati, taking darshan of Balaji there and taking darshan of Padmavati, going there and taking darshan of their Lordships, doing bhajan and kirtan there . . .) In Vaikuṇṭha Ekādaśī. In Shri Rangam they have this giant festival every year, the biggest festival in India. It's Vaikuṇṭha ekādaśī in December. Last December we went there. *Very big. November*-December is a very good time. Apni Ranga Ji dekhechen? (Have you taken darshan of Ranganath?) Prabhapuda: Na. (No.) *Kanchi*-puram. Baradrāj. From here. Sidha south pura. (Straight to all in the South) . . . (indistinct) . . . up to Cape Comorin. Ahobila, Tirupati : Yes, all of them, all of them. He knows all the places . . . (indistinct) This is the original birth, Shri Rangam. Now with Suraji's cooperation make a program. *Yes, we will do like that. November*-December will be very suitable time. Then in January, the Kumbha-melā, we will try to organize something big there also. January, Allahabad, Kumbha-melā 26 aadmi . . . (26 people) . . . (indistinct) Hum log gaye the pura south India . . . (We had gone to the whole south India . . .) . . . (indistinct) Inko bhi le jayenge sab. Karenge , prachar. (Will take him also with us. Will preach.) (pause) Bas aap ki ashirbad hum log leke chalenge. Sab achha hoga. (We will go ahead with your blessings, Everything will be good.) (pause) That's all. Stop now. I was just going to say you should take massage now. Ha? I was just going to say it's time for massage. Yes. Can I tell you about the bank? Yes. Punjab National Bank is down the street, and we have our temple account there. Oh, Punjab National Bank is there. That's all right. So how much do you want to deposit? That I have to count. So we can do it any time. Yes. *And before you arrange this Kumbha*-melā—it's very cold there. Don't talk now. Okay. (long pause) . . . (indistinct) Everything is going on. Wood carving, cement lay, painting, marble polishing. The yajña . If we would have remained there . . . these people are coming. How they could see? . . . (indistinct) Still, it would have been very quiet. We are not . . . (indistinct) . . . besides that, we don't want quietness. We want how many are . . . (indistinct) Jaya . If you wanted quietness, you could have stayed in Vṛndāvana. Yes. (end) Conversation -- August 17, 1976, Hyderabad Speak loudly. It's very noisy. This is Dr. Ghosh. This is Visukeran Agarwal, one of our very close friends in Hyderabad. He's a very close friend in Hyderabad. I think I have seen you. Oh, yes, yes. Apni Dr. Ghosh? (Are you Dr. Ghosh?) Ami Dr. Ghosh, bohudin Europe chilam. Tarpore Gurur adeshe amra jongole ekta gram sristi korechi paharer upore. Sekhane athash bochor achi. Ta apnar somosto je byapar amar jana ache. To apnader upolokkhe ekta prokando jaiga okhane, aaj mane chomotkar paharer upore, khub nam kora, eni janen, Kodaikanal. Kodaikanal er kache. Okhane sob jaiga dhore . . . (indistinct) . . . ponchas, ponchas kilometer er modhhe. Khub boro jongoler modhhe amra somosto gram toiri korchi. Sekhane amader upasonar dorkar, apni jodi ektu pododhuli den tahole amader dos hazar loker upokar hoye jai. (Yes I am Dr. Ghosh. I stayed in Europe for many days. Then by the order of my guru we made a village in the forest at the top of the hill. Staying there for twenty eight years. I am aware of all your activities. For your sake I have selected a big place there, at the top of the hill, very beautiful. It's a famous spot, he knows, Kodaikanal. It's near to Kodaikanal. There holding the lands . . . (indistinct) . . . fifty, within fifty kilometers. We have made villages within a very big forest. We need to do some activity of worship there, if we can get the dust of your feet there then it will be of great benefit for the ten thousand people who are residing at that place.) Nischoi jabo. (Surely I will go.) Apni ese . . . apnader ei sob lok joner jonne ami ekta jaiga toiri korechi. Jara, era ja kaaj korche, boddo gorom. Sekhane chomotkar thanda, chiro bosonto. Kak nei, sap nei. (Once you go . . . I have made a place there for all of your people. These people, the work that they are doing, here it is too hot. The climate there is very cool, eternal spring. No crows, no snakes even.) Ekhan theke koto dur? (How far it is from here?) Kachei ekhan theke. Ami to ekhane aat din apnar jonne bose achi. (It's not very far. I am waiting here for you for eight days.) Oh! Besh korechen. (Oh, you have done it good.) (laughing) Ha ha . . . aat din, eni janen. Aat din bose achi, apnar ektu . . . amar naam ache prithibite. Ami mane Paris theke amar . . . (Ha ha . . . eight days, he knows. For eight days I am staying here, just for your little . . . I have a good reputation all over the world, from Paris mine . . .) Puro naam ki? (What's your full name?) Hiranmoy Ghosh Singho. Amra Jessore er lok. Amader pitamoho ra sob Jessore er raja chilo. Sei sob gachhe . . . Singha, sei jonne amader boro cheler naam er pichone ekta Singha thake, kenona amra khotriyo. Ta ami bohu kal bilete chilam. Amar satero bochor bilete theke. Desh swadhin hobar pore amra asi. (Hiranmoy Ghosh Singho. We are from Jessore. Our ancestors were the kings of Jessore. All those are gone now . . . Singha, for that reason the eldest son in our family carries the title "Singha" (Lion), because we are ksatriya . But I stayed overseas for many years. I stayed in foreign countries for seventeen years. After India got independence we came back.) Kothai chilen? (Where did you stay?) Besirbhag somoi France e chilam. Ami daktari MD France theke ni ebong Vienar theke ni. Nea amar Europe e khub boro posar chilo. Jokhon desh swadhin holo, tokhon Sri Aurobindo amader guide chilen. To Jawaharlal Nehru amake deke anen. To dekhlam sob pagoler byapar. Aurobindo bollen, tumi o sober modhhe miso na. Tomar ja kaj seta jongol, gorib lokder songe. To khuje khuje ekta jongol ber kore sekhanei bose achhi athash bochor. Amar boyesh satattor. (Most of the time I stayed in France. I took my MD in Medical from France and Vienna. After that I had a very good practice in Europe. When India got independence, at that time Sri Aurobindo was our guide. Jawaharlal Nehru then called me here. After coming I realized that these were all insanity. Aurobindo told us not to get involved with those people. He said that your job will be in the forest, with poor people. After searching a lot we found out a forest and stationed there for twenty eight years. Now I am seventy seven years old.) . . . (indistinct) . . . jokhon Gandhir assistant ra sob jail e jai . . . (. . . (indistinct) . . . when all the assistants of Gandhi were going to jail . . .) Ha. (Yes.) Onek bar approach korechilo, apni asun. I refused, na na. (They approached me many times, please come and join us. But I refused, no no.) Sunun amar okhane khub Hari sankirtan hoi, aar amra Joidev, amar stri khub boro songit, khub namkora, biswo bikhyato. Ta amra sob bose achi apnar pododhulir jonne. (Listen, we perform regular Hari sankirtana there at my place and we also recite Jaydeva (a poet), my wife is a big singer, very reputed, famous all over the world. So we all are waiting there for the dust of your feet.) Prabhupāda: Ami toiri, apnake ghare, mane Honumaner moton apnake nea jete raji achhi, ek jhape. (laughter) (I am ready, like Hanuman I will carry you in my shoulder and reach there with a big leap.) (laughter)) Ekhane 5- 7 din . . . (indistinct) (Here 5 to 7 days . . . (indistinct)) Ekhan theke kache. Apni . . . apni jedin . . . sunun apnar jonne ami ekhane, eni janen dos din bose achi. Kal rattir bela apnaked dekhlam boro bhir. (It's not far from this place. When you . . . when you . . . see he knows I am sitting here for ten days. I saw you yesterday night but it was heavily crowded.) After this function we can go there. And he knows about Kodaikanal. It's a very wonderful place. I shall go there. There are very, very big schools there. Tahole ki hobe janen, apnar modhhe theke ekta hole por amar mone hoi je sob neche jabe. Aar amader barite to nach gan cholchei saradin. Apni dekhun ekbar. Amra boro gorib, ei . . . (indistinct) . . . ese jan. Amra chaoar, matir ghore thaki. (You know what will happen then, if one program can be done there then I think everyone will take part in dancing. And in our home there are singing and dancing going on throughout the day. You please consider my request once. We are very poor . . . (indistinct) . . . please come, we stay in thatched mud hut.) Amar cheye adham ke, ami ei movement start korechilam challish taka dea. (Who is poorer than me, I began this movement with just forty rupees.) Ta to jani. Sob amar . . . apnake ami onusoron korchi onek bochor dhore. 1966 sal thekei amar mon apnar payer upore. Ta apni se jonne bhabben na. Se sob ja bolbar . . . ami je , apni janen je ami apnar khub boro bhokto. (I know that. Everything I . . . I have been following you for many years now, from 1966 only my mind is residing on your feet. You please don't worry about that. Whatever is to be said . . . I am, you please know that I am a big devotee of you.) *Ei jinish tar secret hochhe, yea (The secret of this thing is that,) tesam satata*-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam ( BG 10.10)) Amar kan ta ektu kala hoye gachhe. Satattor bochor boyesh amaro. Apnar theke ami matro char bochorer . . . (I am becoming little deaf, my age is seventy seven now, I am only four years . . . than you.) . . . (indistinct) Ta apnake seba korbar jonne bose achi. Keno amar jonne apni . . . (So I am waiting here just to serve you. Why for me you . . .) . . . (indistinct) Amake sokkole jane. India te ami, amar . . . (Everyone knows me. In India, my . . .) . . . (indistinct) Ha ha ha, I told . . . . . . (indistinct Hindi) Amar haat khub bhalo. Onek, enara sob jane. Mane ektu seba kore gele, mane boro boro byadhi sob, amar okhane bhir hoye jai loker. Ta apnake pabo bole, ami kothao jai na. Jei sunlam je apni aschen , ami tara tari ekhane ese bose achi. Apnar kacha kachi e bose thaki. (I am, mine . . . I am expert in that. All these people knows. Means I try to serve, all chronic diseases, people gathers in great number at my place. But only to see you I came. I don't go anywhere. The moment I heard that you are coming, I came hurriedly here and was waiting for you. I remain seated near you only.) Apnar . . . (Your . . .) E sob amar patient, era sokole amake chene. Ta ami bollam, baba amake, ekhan theke nore ami, jotokhhon na Prabhupāda aschen totokkhon. Sei jonne 29 tarikhe. Ta apni jedin jaben, oder sob bondobosto kore bolun. Sei din aponar jonne ami niche . . . (All these people are my patients, they all know me. I said to them, let me, I am not going to move anywhere till the time Prabhupāda is coming. For that reason since 29th. So when you are planning to go, tell them (your disciples) to make arrangements. That day I will be there below . . .) Ora je dine bolbe, ami se dine jabo. (When they (my disciples) will select a date, I will go that day.) Santite cholun. Ta apko to malum hai ke e sob jaiga . . . (indistinct) . . . apnar Gokuler moton lagbe. Okhane amra dos hazar gorib lok achi. Apni jodi ektu pododhuli den tahole amader oi nach gan bhalo . . . (Plan peacefully and come. You know very well about all these places . . . (indistinct) . . . you will feel like you have come to Gokula. We, about ten thousand poor people are staying there. If you kindly visit then our singing and dancing will be very good . . .) Mohaprabhu hochhen patita pabon. (Mahāprabhu is the deliverer of fallen souls.) Patita pabon. (Deliverer of fallen souls.) *Narottam Das Thakurer gan, patita*-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . . . (Narottama Das Thakura sang patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . . .) Achha, patita pavana. Amra sei upokar, apni kale je bollen upokar karna. Oi tai amader mane aaj athash bochor dhore cholche. (Well, deliverer of fallen souls. You were telling about doing benevolent activity yesterday. We are doing that for twenty eight years.) *Mo*-sama patita prabhu nā pāibe āra (Prārthanā 39). This is the appeal made by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, "My Lord, Your incarnation is for very, very fallen souls, and You'll not find anyone who is more fallen than me. Therefore my claim is first." Ami jokhon gelam aj, bhasa jani na sokole jongli lok. Ora abar, British ra bolche tribe, criminal tribe era. Karon ora goru toru uthie nea jai, dekhche badorer moto fol dekhle jhulche khai. Oder okhane gele, amar athash bochor. Amar pach ta school ache. High school ekhon ekta. Oder mane employment er boddo kosto. Sejonne khete khute okhane ekta . . . (When I first went there, I didn't know their language, all were forest dwellers. Britishers told that these tribe, they are criminally inclined. They used to steal cows etc. and if they saw some fruits hanging in the tree, they will eat it. In that tribal's place I am staying for twenty eight years. I have five schools there. High school is only one now. Getting employment from them is very difficult. That's why after hard work, there one . . .) Na na, okhane te sob jaiga royeche, ora sob . . . (No no, there are enough place available, they all . . .) Jaiga to ami kinichi aste aste. (Gradually I have purchased land there.) Ami bolchi, sekhane sob nijeder kheti, nijeder kapor, nijeder . . . (What I want to mean, there they can have their own agricultural activities, own clothes, own . . .) Sob, tai to bolchi, apni ekbar padadhuli din, apnake dekhabo. (Everything. That's what I am saying, you just come once, I will show you.) Ha? (Yes?) Apni obak, apnar khub anondo hobe. Apni jeta korte bolchen amra seta korchi. (You will be astonished, you will become joyful. What you are telling to do, we are already doing that.) Besh. (Very nice.) Apni ekbar ese jan. Amader ekhane pododhuli din. Amra boddo gorib. Apnake nebar moton shokti amader nei. Ta holeo amra ghare kore apnake nea jabo. (You just come once. You put the dust of your feet there. We are very poor. We don't have enough capacity to take you. Still we will carry you on our shoulder and take you there.) Jar Bhogoban sohai ache se abar gorib kothai. (Whom Lord is favouring how can he be poor.) Ta to ache. Ta na hole apnar songe dekha hoto na. Ami morbar age, ek e , bollam je amake Bhakti . . . Prabhupādaer songe ekbar dekha korie dao. Kal ratti bela, sara din apnar chinta, sondhe bela chinta. Ekhane ese dekhlam. Eikhanei bose achi, oke jiggesh korun. Ami eikhanei bose achi. Apnake ektu seba korbo, ei amar sokh. Sei jonne bhalo tel thel baby oil sob rekhechi. Apnake ektukhani mane changa . . . dekhun amar shokti jothesto ache, apnar theke. (Yes the Lord's favour is there or else I would not be able to see you. Before I die, I told him to fulfil my one wish, let me just once grant a meeting with bhakti . . . Prabhupāda. Yesterday night and all the day, in the evening I was only thinking about you. After coming here I saw you. Since then I am sitting here, ask him I am sitting here since then. Just wanted to give you a little service, that is my wish. For that I have kept good quality oil, baby oil with me. I want to make you little rejuvenated . . . see I am having enough strength, stronger than you.) Ha apnar to built well. (Yes you are well built.) Khub bhalo, keno. (Yes I am well built, because . . .) You are healthy . . . Era sob jane, how I revived them. Ekhankar sob lok amake chene. Ami bollam je Prabhupāda asbe, ora amar okhane ase. Ami bollam Prabhupāda asbe ami okhane gea bosbo. Keno apnar kotha ami dekhun dosh bochor dhore moner moddhe ache. Apni ja ja korchen, somosto tarikh by tarikh apnar somosto bole debo. Amar tin jon ache jara apnar somosto boi, amar okhane tin copy kore ase. Amader librery ta khub boro hoye gachhe, okhane mane, apni okhane ese ekbar amader ektu upodesh din. (They know everything, how I revived them. All people here knows me. I told them Prabhupāda will come, they all come to my place. So I told them Prabhupāda will come, I will go there and wait for him. See for ten years I was thinking about you. Whatever you are doing, I can tell you date by date all the events. We have three persons who reads all your books. Three copies of all your books comes to my place. Our library has become very big. You please come there and give us some advice.) Ha ha, ami jabo. (Yes yes, I will go.) Jongoler moddhe ele dekhun jongoler mongol hoye jabe. (You come to the forest and see that there will be auspiciousness in the forest.) Aar apnar, sune ja ekhon bujhechi . . . (So your, what I have understood by hearing from you . . .) Are, apni obak, apni gea dekhen jodi. Tar moddhe jodi apni Bhagobot sonen aar amader somosto Joydev songskrito, apnar khub anondo hobe. Apnar ekhane ache songskrito, recording tape ta ana hoi ni. To apni okhane cholun, apnake sara din amra nachie debo. Apni dekhbo, amader nach e dekhben sudhu. Amader okhane dance school royechhe.Chaitanya Mohaprabhu e to prothome dance arombho koran. Chaitanya Mohaprabhur age keu dance koran ni. (You will become amazed, If you go there and see. Moreover if you hear *Bhāgavatam* there and all our Jayadev's sangskrit, you will be very pleased. We have Sanskrit here, but the recording tape I couldn't bring. You simply go there, we will make you dance the whole day. You will see, you will see our dance only. We have a dance school there. It was Caitanya Mahāprabhu who first inaugurated the dancing. Before him on one performed dancing.) Drama also. Ei jonne amra sob . . . (That's why we all . . .) He is the first beginner of . . . (indistinct) . . . Uni goverment scholar chilen. Russia tasia somosto jaigai, khub, mane govt pathai oke. (She was a government scholar. The Government sends him to Russia and many other places.) Oh. Ei jokhon khub boro boro lok, boigganik . . . (indistinct) . . . rani, queen Elizabeth. To oi ekmatro ache je gea bujhie dei, je nacher . . . saradin to amader okhane oi nacer e chorcha, ganer chorcha, sob bhorti. Apni amar okhane ja songskrito sunben, apni kokhhono eto bhalo songskrito sonen ni. Eto poriskar. Amar Europe Amerikar jonne kori. Ora onek ase , amader chatrora sob bohu dur theke ase. Germany theke, Sweden theke. To apni ekbar gea pododhuli dea amader bachan. Ta apnar oi ek pododhulite amra aro lafie cholbo. Apni onumoti kore din, apni bole din. (When some big personalities, scientists . . . (indistinct) . . . queens, Queen Elizabeth. So she is the only one who goes and make them understand, this dancing . . . at our place throughout the day there are the practice of singing and dancing, all occupied. The Sanskrit that you will listen at my place, you haven't heard such Sanskrit pronunciation ever. So clear. We do this for Europe and America. Many from those places comes, many of our students comes from very far away places. From Germany, Sweden. You kindly come once and save us by putting the dust of your feet there. By just your one visit we will be highly encouraged. You grant your permission, you instruct them.) Apnar chele pule? (Do you have any children?) Amar ek chele bilete. Se BBC te kaj kore. Broadcasting. Or ekta nijer feature program ache - Question of faith. Se o khub bhokto. Se BBC te robibar 10:30 er somoi or ekta TV program thake. To okhane, okhane thake. Se sonnasi. Se bea tha kore ni. . . . (indistinct) . . . aar ei stri, amar jokhon haat pa bhenge jai. Amar ekta boro acciodent hoi. Amar haat pa nei. Sob lohar tukro tukro bose achhe. Aar ami ekta patient jokhon haspatale jachhilam, ekta gari dhakka mere fele dei . . . (indistinct) . . . to sei somoi uni Germanyr theke asen. Uni German noi, uni Bharotio. Germany te Indian government pathai, sekhanor jonno, amader Bharat natyam jake bole. Tarpore uni ese amar okhane, bolche tomar kach charbo na, tomar haat pa nei. To amake nea okhane gea amake chalie talie thik rakhe se. Aar amar to sara din kaj, gorib lokder kaj. Amra ekso teish jon lok nea arombho kori, 1948 sale. Ekhon amra dosh hazarer er besi lok, pach ta school. Or nijer o school achhe. Tateo ponchanno jon student, somosto bideshi. Tale ki hoi jibon amader bhoyanok kaje thakte hoi. (One of my son is staying overseas. He works in BBC. Broadcasting. He has his own feature program there, "Question of Faith". He is also a very good devotee. In BBC on Sunday 10:30 he has one TV program. So he stays there. He is a renunciate. He is not married . . . (indistinct) . . . and my wife, when I broke my hand and leg. I met with a big accident. I don't have my original hands and legs. Some iron pieces are inserted there. When I was going to a hospital with one of my patient, then one car hit me and threw me in the ground . . . (indistinct) . . . so at that time she came from Germany. She is not a German, she is Indian. Actually Indian government sent her to Germany, to teach dancing, what we call here Bharat natyam. After returning she came to my place. She said that she will not let me stay alone as I didn't have functional hands and legs. Then she took care of me and made me fit. I am to work for whole day, for poor people. We began with hundred and twenty three people in 1948. Now we are more than ten thousand people, five schools are there. She has one of her own school, there are fifty five student's in her school. All are foreigner. So in our life we are to remain busy with heavy workload.) Ha ha ha. (Yes, yes, yes.) *Aar amar boyesh to hoyei jachhe . . . (indistinct) . . . . tokhon jokhon sunlam je baba Prabhupāda aschen, tokhon mane no body can stop me now. Ta okeo likhechi Prabhupāda asben. To ekhane je apnader golmal. Ami oke nea aschilam apnake sonanor jonne. Somosto ostopate amader ekbar chomotkar, ostopath, puro Joydev songskrito, apni ekhane ese ekbar sonen. Amader e doya apnake kortei hobe. Amra jokhon eto seba korchi apnar jonne, apni ekbar payer dhulo din. Ekhon din thik kore din, ami sob bondo, je kore hok . . . (indistinct) . . . aar apnar sunun, ami to sob Jawaharlal Nehru bolun, somosto boro boro lok ami seba koerechi sob. Amar baritei sob ase. Indira Gandhi porjonto amar barite ese . . . aar apnar ekhane pododhulir jonne ami sob toiri kore bose achi, amake apnar payer dhulo ektu. Ami apnake, apni obak hoye jaben. Apni dekhben je apnar amader . . . ha ami to chole jabo porshu din sokalbela kalke Jonmastami kore. Amake adghonta ekdin, apnar somosto deho, ei Rolls-Royce gari apnar atto din choleche, oke ektu servicing dorkar. Apnar to dorkar nei, kintu apnake amader dorkar.To dekhun jodi Bhogoban kauke amar kache gari den, take jodi ami service na kori setao ekta pap. To apni jodi onumoti den, kichhu na, apni sudhu ektu suye thakben. Apni dekhun je Bhogoban kirokom chomotkar . . . (indistinct) . . . ami to ponchas bochor ei kaj korchi. Ponchas bochor. Ami . . . (indistinct) . . . 1947, 1927 e prothom MD, 2nd MD 31 e, Vienna. Tarpore dhorun ei ponchas sal dhore ei kaj e hochhe. Amar okhane sob, even Indira Gandhi thandi, ami jai na, ora amar okhane ese. Keno amar har, amra boli ostio pack. Har, muscle, ogulo, jegulo nurve gulo hochhe jhalie dei. Tate hoi ki dekhben apnar blood pressure thad presure sob sere jabe. (And my age is also increasing . . . (indistinct) . . . when I heard that Prabhupāda is coming, then you know no*-one can stop me now. I have written her also that Prabhupāda will come. But here in your place it's too disturbing. I was about to bring her so that you can hear. All our narration of Astapath, excellently done by us, Astapath, all Jayadev's Sanskrit, you go there are hear it once please. You must have to grant us this mercy. When we are serving you so much, you please visit there once. Now you schedule a date, I will arrange, by hook or by crook . . . (indistinct) . . . listen please, I have served all the big big personalities, like Jawharlal Nehru and others. They all come to my home. Even Indira Gandhi also came to my house . . . and for your visit I have made all arrangements, you please give us the dust of your feet there. I will show, you will be surprised. You will see that for you we . . . I will be leaving day after tomorrow morning after attending Janmastami festival tomorrow. Give me half an hour one day, all your body, your this body is like a Rolls-Royce car, it's running for so long, it needs little servicing. We know that you don't need that but we need you. So if God gives me someone's car and if I do not service it, that too is a sin. So if you kindly grant permission, it's nothing, you just have to lay down. You will see that how wonderfully God has . . . (indistinct) . . . I am doing this job for fifty years. Fifty years. I . . . (indistinct) . . . in 1947, no 1927 I got my first MD and second in 1931 at Vienna. Since then for last fifty years I am doing this job only. In my place everyone, even Indira Gandhi, I don't go to anybody's place, they come to me. Because on bone, we say ostio pack. Bone, muscle, all these and the nerves, I do rejuvenate them. As a result you will see, your blood pressure etc. all will be cured.) Ha apnar . . . (indistinct) . . . amar ei whole institute e ami ja bolbo ta hobe. Ami jodi morte boli, morbe. Ei je dictetorship, eta keno ora swikar korche? . . . (indistinct) . . . Uni ja bolchen eitai thik.Seta jodi hoi . . . (indistinct) (Yes your . . . (indistinct) . . . in my institute whatever I will say that is final. If I ask them to die, they will die. So this dictatorship, why are they accepting this? . . . (indistinct) . . . whatever he is saying that's actually correct. If that is the case . . . (indistinct) . . .) Amar o tai, apni ja bolchen tai thik. (Me too, whatever you are telling that's correct for me as well.) Seta jodi hoi, tahole to success hoye gelo. Ta na hole ekta . . . (indistinct) . . . Seta korte hole, . . . (indistinct) . . . yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā (SB 5.18.12) . . . (indistinct) . . . sudhu boktrita dea gele bipod . . . (indistinct) . . . Ta na hole loke dumre dumre dumre . . . (It it's so then success is achieved. Else some . . . (indistinct) . . . to do that . . . (indistinct) . . . Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā (SB 5.18.12) . . . (indistinct) . . . only to give lecture is dangerous . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise people will distort distort distort . . .) Amar o, ami jani seta. Amar opor apni dekhben bhoktir, nahole por oi jongoler moddhe jekhane athash sal thakchi. Nana rokom jongli, boro boro Ajogor sap nea amra bose achi. Kono bhoi nei. Kauke chini na. Sudhu gurur adesh. Jao tumi gea dekho, ora atto gorib amader. Ta apni dekhben je amader koto boro boro industry amra korchi. Hate toiri kora sob, amader oi jongoler lok sob toiri . . . (Mine also, I know that. You will see, devotion is on me, else in that forest I am staying for twenty eight years. There we are living with varities of forest dewellers, huge Pythons. We don't have any fear. We don't know anybody. Only the order of my guru —you go and stay there, they are so poor. You will be happy to see that we have made big big industries. All hand made things, those forest dewellers, they make all . . .) Hater e toiri, beshi kol kobjai na. (Handmade is good, don't use machines much.) Na na kolkobja noi. Ta holeo dekhun emon ekta somoi ese gache. (No no, not much machinery. Still you see such a time has come.) . . . (indistinct) Kol kobjar moddhe nei. Ta hole dekhun power na hole por chorka chole na. Tahole power station, nijeder station korte hoi ekta. Khub, apni dekhle, oi gobor dea e amra kori. (We are not into machines. Still you see without power the wheels don't move. In that case power station, we are to make our own power station then. Good if you see, we do it by using cow dung.) Self help. Ha? Gobor deai kori. Cow dung gas fas sob royeche . . . (indistinct) . . . aste aste. Emon kichu ekta birat byapar noi. Houar upai o nei. (What? We do it by cow dung. Cow dung gas is there . . . (indistinct) . . . gradually. It's not such a big thing. There is no scope also to make it big.) Na na, jinish ta hochhe, our life should be simplified. (No no, actually the thing is that our life should be simplified.) Absolutely. We shall not unnecessarily complication na. Amader to ekebare simple. Amra je bari ghor dor kori, sob chomotkar. Sokole bole khub bhalo, ekebare simple. Aar amra ekta gram korchi ekhon. (Ours are totally simple. The house that we make, all are wonderful. Everyone says those are very good, totally simple. Now we have made a village.) *Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya (BG 6.17). Minimum. Dignity bujhechen. (Minimun. Just a matter of dignity you see.) (indistinct) . . . find out this verse. *Yukta*-ceṣṭasya karmaṇā ? *Where is Bhagavad*-gītā ? Apnar sob amar okhane ache. Ta apni ekdin kaj korun, ami ekhane apnar payer dhare bose thakbo, ami to norchi na. Ete ki ache. Apnar jodi ek ghonta somoi thake. Ami apnar jonne mane Amerika theke je, ekebare pobitro tel jeta hoi, mane jol, baby oil, baby der newborn baby der, rekhechi. Apnii ,amake ektu khani jodi . . . apni dekhben, amar tahole khub bhalo, amar khub bhalo haat. Apni bujhte parben. Aar apnar seba ami ektu korte chai morbar age. Dekhun parshod na thakle por, apnader ke bachie rakhbar moto lok nei. Amra sob apnar parshod sob. (All your books are there with me. You please do one thing, I will just sit beside your feet, I am not going to move anywhere. It's very simple. If you have one hour free time. From America I have arranged, totally sanctified oil and water, means water, baby oil, oil for newborn baby, I have kept with me. If you please just a little . . . you will see, I will feel good, my hands are very expert on this. You will realise. And before I die I wish to render some little service to you. See if associates are not there, no one is here to keep you alive. We all are your associates only.) Kripa kore amake rakhun.Din kotok kaj kori. (Please do protect me. Let me work for few more day's.) Dekhun parshod na thakle, Mohaprabhu Chaitanya sob, ora oke to, apnader sob rakhbar jonne prarthona korte hoi Bhogobaner kache. Dekhun apnar hochhe dos inchi pipe, amra hochhi one eighth inch pipe. Apnar je, je Bhogoban apnake or moddhe dea thele pathachhen, jara parshod tara to thik regulate kore rakhte hoi . . . (indistinct) . . . sei apni bhabun. Apni, ami jani, apnar kono chinta nei. (See, if associates are not there, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's all, for Him they, to keep you people alive prayrs are to be offered to the Lord. You are having a ten inch pipe, we are one eighth inch pipe. What your, what God is giving you, through you what God is pushing down, those who are the associates, they need to regulate the force . . . (indistinct) . . . so you please think over it. You, I know, you have nothing to worry about.) *Apni bolun, parshod bolte gele, kṛṣṇa*-varṇaṁ viṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam (SB 11.5.32), Parshadoi. (You say, to say about associates, kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam . Parshadoi , associates.) Eita eita eita amar khub bhalo lage. (This one I like very much.) *Kṛṣṇa*-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgo upāṅgā pārṣadam yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Amra to parshoder upasona koe thaki. (We are the worshipper of the associates.) (chuckles) Na na, apni apni apni nijeke nije apni dekhen e ni, bhaben e ni. Amra jani apni ke. Parshoderai jane. Apni je bollen biswas koro. Ami jodi matha khureo jodi mori , ke aar biswas korbe? Apni bollen biswas koro, moro, more jabe. Era sob parshod. Apni jodi amake bolen, tumi more jao ekhane, ami more jabo. Sudhu apnar kothar jonne noi, kenona apni amra apnar parshod, apnake jibon dea apnake rakhte hoi. Ta na hole por monusso jatir upor kono . . . upai nei. Jekhan je Bhogobaner bikash, sekhane dekhben sob lok take bachie rakhbar jonne. (No no, you have not seen yourself, have not thought about it. We know who you are. Only associates knows. You told us to believe. If I, even if I try hard, who will believe me? You said—please keep faith. If you tell them to die, they will die. They are all associates. If you tell me, you die here, I will die. Not only for your words but because we are your associates, by sacrificing life you have to be protected. Otherwise on the human race nothing . . . no way. Were there is the manifestation of God, you will see many people sacrificing there to keep him alive.) *Bhagavaner upasona hoi sa*-parshod. (God's worship is done along with His associates.) Edike amar kan bhoyanok kala, tobuo apnar sob kotha ami sunchi. (Just see my ear is almost deaf and still I am able to hear all your words.) . . . (indistinct) . . . Gopal. Go paal. (. . . (indistinct) . . . Gopal. Maintainer of the cow's.) Gopal oh. (Oh Gopal.) Mane jini Go ke palon koren. Tar parshod. Bhogobaner goru houa, o parshod chara hote pare na. Ei je Bhogoban emni kore alingon korche, e sadharon bachur? Do you think they are ordinary calves? (Means who maintains the cows. His associates. To become a cow of the Lord, without being an associate it's not possible. Here see how Lord is embracing, is it an ordinary calf? Do you think they are ordinary calves?) To be embraced by Kṛṣṇa. *They are associates. They are associating with Lord as calf, as cow. Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ (BS 5.37). Nija-rūpa . Amar nijer rup dekheo bolben, Janama abadhi hamo rupo niharenu nayana na tiropito. Ei je ruper ekta khela cholche, lakho lakho yuga . . . (indistinct) . . . nu, tobu hiye juralu nayanu. Ei dekhun apnake dekhchi, aar kono dekhbar nei amar. Sob pash. Amra sob durer theke , kacher theke sob pash. Jonom jonom dhore dekhchi. (You are saying to see my own form, since birth I am seeing different forms but still my eyes are not satiated. That this game of form is going on, for millions of years . . . (indistinct) . . . by seeing you my eyes are satisfied.) *In Vṛndāvana, the calves, the cows, the trees, the land, the water—everyone, ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ . That is expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Cit-śakti . There are three energies: spiritual, material and marginal. So Vṛndāvana affairs means expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa . Sac-cid-ānanda. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Rasa , mellow. Everyone is trying to relish some mellow. Here in this material world we get family to taste some mellows. One kind of mellow is wife, one kind of mellow are children, one kind of mellow is the servants, one kind of mellow is the friends, one kind of mellow is the properties. They are all mellows, rasa . Unless there is some taste, why one should be hankering after all these things? Why one is hankering after some woman or some man or some friends or for children? One who has got no children, he's hankering after some child. He's expecting, "When I shall get a child?" The rasa . There is husband-wife rasa , but there is no rasa of the child. Therefore they are praying, "When we shall get a child?" So there is another rasa . So raso vai saḥ . He is the reservoir of rasas . So if we derive all the rasas from the Supreme, because He is the reservoir of rasas . . . *Akhila*-rasāmṛta-sindhu . *Akhila*-rasāmṛta , yes. Akhila-rasāmṛta-sindhu . So you can have all the rasas , and that is the origin of bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu . In bhakti , that rasa , you become in the ocean of rasa . You're hankering after rasa . There is a Vedic injunction, raso vai saḥ labdhvānandi ānand ī. One who has got the rasa , labdhvānandi , then he gets the real ānanda . That ānanda-cinmaya-rasa expansion is Kṛṣṇa's calves, cows, gopī friends, cowherd boy friends, Nanda, Yaśodāmāyi, so many. So to be Kṛṣṇa conscious means to participate with these rasas. It is not dry. It is not dry, like, simply so 'ham , so'ham , finished. So 'ham , they do not know the meaning. So 'ham means I belong to the same rasa . I also eligible to enjoy the same rasa . But Kṛṣṇa is . . . (break) . . . and the calves, the cows are enjoying the rasa as predominated. Just like husband and wife, they are enjoying, both. But one is enjoying as the husband, predominator. The husband is forcefully dragging the wife. She's also . . . while she is dragged by force, she enjoys. That is another rasa. But there is rasa . Combined together it becomes rasa . Similarly, Kṛṣṇa does not enjoy this material. This material rasa is the perverted reflection of that cinmaya-rasa . So we have to get ourselves nil of all these material rasas , and we have to be situated in the cinmaya . Then our . . . ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Then our life is perfect. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Rasa is there. Here perverted reflection. The perverted reflection . . . my Guru Mahārāja used to say to taste milk in white, what is called, lime water. White lime water, it looks like milk. But it is not milk. It is different thing. Similarly, we are trying to taste the rasa of milk in lime water. Therefore we are baffled. That is true. Whole universe is rasa . Even in Mars they're trying to find humidity. What is humidity, rasa . Everything is moving on the rasa only. We are floating on rasa . Our aim of understanding this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not a sentiment. It is a great science, great science. Otherwise how we are writing so many books? If it was a dry . . . Nothing happens in dryness. *Why people are accepting our books? You'll be surprised, we are selling book to the extent of six lakhs of rupees per day. Daily. Daily we are selling six lakhs of rupees' worth all over the world. So people think philosophy, religion, dry subject matter. If it was dry subject matter, how they could purchase so many books? It is ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa . They are getting for the first time, here is real ānanda . Therefore they are appreciating. Everyone, learned circle, they are giving appreciation. In . . . (indistinct) . . . foreign circles. So, there was no such literature. It is the first time. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇaṁ vaiṣṇavānām . . . (SB 12.13.18). So unless they're really relishing some rasa, how they are purchasing? This is the first distribution of ānanda-cinmaya-rasa throughout the whole world, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So I am very happy that you are also very . . . (indistinct) . . . let us join together, we shall raise . . . We can consult and fix a date, what suits Prabhupāda best, then I will arrange for the rest at that end. When are you leaving Hyderabad? I'm leaving just after . . . you see, I was leaving long ago, but he was coming. So I will leave 19th morning plane. That is the day after the Janmāṣṭamī tomorrow. Night, whatever festivity, I'll be here. I think there will be some saṅkīrtana also. After that, early morning, I'll catch the plane and go up to Madras, and there I shall fly again to my tila (my small hill top place). It is not very far, as you are thinking, but you know Kodaikanal is the, prithibir moddhe naki sobcheye bhalo jaiga, climatologically. Amar ichhe je amar ja kichu achhe apnar possessione dea, okhane era je kaj kormo korche gorome, majhe majhe gea ektu recharge. (Kodaikanal, supposedly it's the best place in the whole world, climatologically. I wish that whatever I have I will give those unto your possession, what these people are working here in such hot environment, they can visit there sometime to recharge.) Because they are recharging the battery of the urban line. But they also will be recharging that battery in a nice cosmic place. And that . . . Amader je rasa, our rasa, it can be tasted by the topmost intellectual man. (The rasa that we have, our rasa , it can be tasted by the topmost intellectual man.) Of course. And it can be tasted by the lowest . . . No intellect at all. I know that. *But why? Because this intellect, highest or lowest, that is in relationship with the body. But it is beyond the body. It is not . . . sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya (BG 14.26). It is beyond the three guṇas . The body is of the material guṇas—sattva , rajas , tamas . One man is good man, one man is passionate, one is foolish. Guṇa . Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo'sya . Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhunjante guṇān (BG 13.22)? (aside) Find out this. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhunjante . . . beginning with puruṣaḥ . Everything is explained, Bhagavad-gītā . *Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is matchless. We are reading and re-reading, and every time we find much more, you see? Terrific. And you have put the simplest method—"As it is," as you say. Why complicate, tika this . . . that is why . . . you know, we can be safely called intellectuals. But, you know, we are tired of it. Yes. Tired. We cannot find anything. Neti neti vicāra te patra patra (sangskrit) . . . impossible. Then what do you get out of the life? The joy, rasa, apni je bollen, (The joy which you just have mentioned), that is the main substance. To get it you cannot get neti neti, Mohaprabhur ja hoyechilo . . . (indistinct) . . . (To get it you cannot get neti neti , what Mohaprabhu experienced . . . (indistinct) . . .) *Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi (BG 13.22). (aside) Find out. Puruṣaḥ . Why you cannot find this verse? What you are . . . Puruṣaḥ prakṛti , bhuñjante . . . *Tad guṇān. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi . You did not find? Eta apnar *Bhāgavatam* series na tinte volume? (Is this your *Bhāgavatam* series or just three volume?) *Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Seventeen volumes. Seventeen. I have only two. Can I . . . is there any set available? I would like to buy the rest. Yes. *Puruṣa , the living entity, he is now within the material energy. Prakṛti*-sthaḥ . Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho . . . *Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi . Stho hi . *Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . On account of his being in touch with the material energy, he has to suffer or enjoy the modes of material nature. Modes of material nature, and because, just like in your medical science one is suffering from a certain type of disease on account of his being infected by the similar virus or . . . what is called? Virus. Ha? Virus. Virus. Virus. Animate in, apnader theory ami porechi. (Virus. Animate in, I have read your theory.) Now we know even the inanimate is animate, but by virology only it is changing. All the unanimate subject is slowly being transformed into animate. We are all convinced the whole process is the same. It's a terrific science now, virology. Latest, we have discovered. I am also working on virology quite a bit for all the virus disease and all. And we can eliminate them by only vacuum. My whole cure, they call it miracle and all this nonsense, it is only creating a vacuum which automatically takes away. This virology will be complete . . . When we accept this. . . . when you accept this. I know. (laughs) And I have accepted long ago. Because I felt, as a sincere worker, medicine doesn't interest me. What interests me is the cure. My profession is to cure, not to study the medicines. That is the cure. *Here it is very clearly stated that kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). The virology, infection, kāraṇam , that is the kāraṇam . Kāraṇam guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu . Why there are varieties of life? One is very intelligent . . . You know also in Vedic sangit , Tamasa bahurupena bestitaha karma hetu na . . . (indistinct) . . . sukha dukhha samanwita (Sanskrit). Same thing. Same thing, no? Everything has light. Only it is in transformation by that formula, it is inanimate to animate. That is what is happening all around us. *So, if from . . . just like medical science . . . it is also a medical science. Bhavauṣadhi. It is . . . auṣadhi means medical science. This is bhavauṣadhi . By this treatment one becomes relieved from the material disease. Bhavauṣadhi . Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra*-mano-'bhirāmāt . But the medicine is so nice that it is pleasing to the ear and to the heart. The medicine pleasing to the ear? What is that. *Hari*-nāma . Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Apni amader okhane cholun, amader o khub bhalo naam . . . (indistinct) . . . amader Bangali dhoroner sob amra korechi, amader recording e ache sob. Apnake sonabo. Apni khub anando paben. Amader ek family ache Mohana Nanda, tini Deoghar e thaken, tini ekhane ese amader record korie jan. Aar amar stri to saradin naach neai ache, Bhogobaner nach. Apnar khub bhalo lagbe, apni ektu. Aram noi, ekebare somadhir moddhe apni ese jaben. Cholun na, oder hukum kor din. (You please come to our place, we also have very good nama . . . (indistinct) . . . we have made it in Bengali style, in our recording everything is there. We will play for you. You will be very happy. We have one family named Mohana Nanda, he stays in Deoghar, he comes here and makes the recording. And my wife is busy all day with her dancing, for God. You will feel very happy, you please. Not only feel comfort, you will reach samadhi stage there. Please instruct them, let's go.) Jedin ora fix up korbe. (When they will fix up the date?) Ha? (What?) Ora jedin fix up korbe. (When they will fix up the date?) Ha oi je hukum. (Yes that is called order.) We decide a date, and take . . . not too . . . we have no means for having too many people, but about dozen people, or ten people can come. And they will have all facility. We can arrange a station wagon and everything there. You have to come up to Kodaikanal Road Station. And if you like we shall arrange for your departure from Madras . . . (indistinct) . . . Ami sathe. (I will be with you.) We will come with you. Apni . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda ke rekhe asben. We will accompany you all the way. Aapko aur Surana shab ko bol denge, aap dono . . . (indistinct) . . . le jayenge. Tahole choli. Apnake aar, apnake aar . . . apni ekdin hukum korun, apnar seba tahole okhanei apnake korbo. (I will accompany you. We will come with you. You . . . (indistinct) . . . take Prabhupāda to stay there. We will accompany you all the way. I will intimate you and Mr. Surana, you two . . . (indistinct) . . . will take you. Goodbye then. Your, your . . . you just order one day. Your service, I will serve you there then.) Ha ha. (Yes yes.) When you come there. Ekhane boddo golmal. (It's very noisy here.) I'll get everything ready. It is settled you are coming at there earliest. Yes. Apni bole din kobe. (You tell me the date.) When they'll make a program, conveniently, I shall go. Ami, dekhiye. (I, you see.) I'm leaving on 29th morning. If you can give me a word by tomorrow evening. Not 29th; 19th. Today is 17th. They cannot decide so soon. : Janmāṣṭamīr pore? (After Janmāṣṭamī?) Janmāṣṭamī pore. (Yes after Janmāṣṭamī.) Apnar vyas pujar . . . (Your vyasa puja's . . .) Another program is that we are going that side during . . . (indistinct) Kanyakumari te jaben naki? Odike jaben naki? (Will you go to Kanyakumari? Will you go in that direction?) Ha. (Yes.) To cholun amra songe jabo. Amader barir kachei to. Palni te asun. Palni, Kentur khub bhalo area. Kumar. (Well we will also go with you then. It's near to our home. You go to Palni. Palni, Kentur, very good places, Kumar also.) So we have to see . . . (indistinct) . . . (background comments by devotees) You also send this. Yes, I have to take little time. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Please come in. Jaya . Prabhupāda ki jaya . Give them little prasādam . Oder ekta din thik korte bole din. (Please tell them to fix a date.) Ha ora korlei ami chole jabo. (Yes once they fix a date I will go.) He's a life member from Bangalore. He was one of our first members in South India. I saw you? Give them prasādam . Last night at the airport. Give them prasādam . They had prasādam . Aap idhar ka hi rehne wale hai? From Bangalore? (Do you stay here? Or from Bangalore?) Hum Bangalore rehne wale hai. Aap bahut uttam kar rahe hai. Bhagawan ka prachar kar rahe hai. (I stay at Bangalore. You are doing a very noble job. You are preaching about God.) Iske bina to kuch janna nahi hai. (I don't know anything else than this.) Ji Maharaj? (Yes Mahārāja?) *Without bhagavad*-bhakti , this so-called advancement of civilization is simply decorating the dead body. Correct. Cent percent correct. What is the use of decorating the dead body? Correct. Yes. We must decorate real . . . *And this body is . . . either dead or alive, Bhagavad*-gītā condemns: gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ (BG 2.11). So these rascals are interested with this body, and they're proud of their advancement of education. And Bhagavad-gītā says nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . So they are passing as great scientists, philosophers, politicians, philanthropists, but all apaṇḍitāḥ. Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . That means apaṇḍita . : Apnar doya na hole ki kore hobe mosai? (Unless your mercy is there how can it be?) Ami to doya korbar jonne to sara duniya ghure berachi. (I am travelling all over the world to give mercy.) : Ei to bolchi dhonnobad dilum apnake, khub beshi. (That's what I am saying, I am thanking you for that, a lot of thanks.) (laughter) *And the first thing of Bhagavad*-gītā lesson is that aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān (BG 2.11): "You are talking like a learned man, but you are rascal." Apaṇḍitaḥ . One who is not educated, he's a rascal. So He's indirectly saying: "This kind of lamentation is not for the paṇḍita . It is for the rascal." So whole world is interested with this body, and Bhagavad-gītā's teaching begins condemning the concept of body. Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Nobody knows this. And they are very learned scholars in Bhagavad-gītā . : Ha ha, apnar doya holei to learned bola jai, nahole ki kore bola jai? (When you shower your mercy then one can become learned, otherwise how can one be said as learned?) *All these rascals, they're claiming to be learned scholar of Bhagavad*-gītā . Anyhow, humlog, We are lucky souls, that we are surrendered souls. (Anyhow, we, we are lucky souls, that we are surrendered souls.) Ha, humko sab miljhul karke, ye jo andolon hai isko achhi tara se samhalna. (Yes, we all will come together and this movement that is going on, we have to maintain it nicely.) Correct. Yeh to akele . . . (I am alone . . .) Nahi nahi Bhagwan ka ichha hai , sab ka duty hai . . . (No no, It's the Lord's will, all of us have responsibility . . .) Whatever is done, it is by single man's effort. If all our actually leaders, they take up, then India will be glorified. They'll feel . . . yes, they're expecting. Outside India, people, they expect that there is something better knowledge in India. Therefore as soon as some svāmīs or yogī goes there, they come. But they cheat. Many have come to cheat. These rascals, I shall say that, sir, they do not know anything, and they go there for teaching yoga . And they are bogus. Bogus, bogus. So many bogus people are going. They do not know what is yoga . They do not know what is what. What that is truth. They don't know. And they get cheap money and women and that's all. That is their business. Aap Bharat ko ashirbad kariye. Iha Bhagabat dharma, Sanatan dharma ka prachar khub beshi hoye. (You shower your blessings upon India. Let the Bhagavad dharma , Sanatan dharma be spread extensively here.) Aap log sab . . . (indistinct) . . . join kijiye, dekhye na abhi Bharat ka chehara badal jayega. (You all . . . (indistinct) . . . you join this movement, just see the face of India will change.) Badal jaye to achhi bat hai. Abhi to . . . (If it get's changed then it will be very good. But now . . .) Jaroor jayega. (Surely it will change.) Ha, jaroor jayega. (Yes, it will surely change.) Kyun ki Bharat abhi bhoola nahi. (Because India still haven't forgotten.) Nahi. Yeh to Bhagawan ka bhoomi hai. (Yes. This is the land of the Lord.) Yeh jabardasti isko bhulaya ja raha hai. (Now people are made to forget forcibly.) Haan, Bhagwan ka bhumi hai. Yeh to politician log ghuma rahe hai isko. (laughs) Bhagwan ka bhumi hai ye. (Yes, this is the land of the Lord. Only these politician's are making things distorted. (laughs) This is the land of the Lord.) To ab ek. . . (indistinct) . . . karke Hari kirtna kijiye. Gao gao me. (So you do one thing . . . (indistinct) . . . perform Hari kirtana . Village to village.) Apne paas bhi Thakur bari hai, swami Yashonand dekha hai . . . (indistinct) . . . kuch dharam hai. (At my place also there is a temple, Swami Yashonand have seen . . . (indistinct) . . . we are also religious.) *He has a temple. The whole third floor of his house is a temple. He has Sītā*-Rāma, Kṛṣṇa, Gopāla. He has big temple. They have saṅkīrtana every night. Every morning and night. Hamare Guruji to Vrindaban ke, aap jante hai. Rang Ji ke bari bagiche me rehte the. Jagad Guru swami Raghunath acharya. Aap to jante hai, Vrindaban gaye hai aap bhi. (My guru is from Vṛndāvana, you might be knowing. He stays in the big garden of Rang Ji. His name is Jagad Guru Swami Raghunath Acarya.) Mai to Vrindaban me hi raha. Abhi Radharani humko bhagaya. (I was staying in Vṛndāvana only. Then Radharani made me run.) Bhaga diya! Radharani ka prachar karna hai to bhagayega ji. (Oh she made you run! Of course Radharani will make you run to preach about her.) (laughter) Ho giya. (Now it's done.) Bhag giya tab hi to achha hua. Aab to lakho ka uddhar hoga, lakho ka. Uha baithe rehte tab to lakho ka nahi hota. Yaha to lakho ka uddhar hoga. Sare dunia ka ho raha hai. (You ran away then only such a good thing have happened. Now millions will be saved, millions. Had you been sitting there then millions could not have been saved. Now millions will be saved. It's happening all over the world.) Isiliye to, uo Radharani bhaga bhi deta hai. (That's why I am saying, sometime Radharani can make you run also.) Bilkul bilkul. Mahatma ka shrap bhi asirvad hota hai. Radharani to prem hai. Uo to Ma hai. Ma to bete ko achha ke liye bhejta hai. Bahut sundar karya ho raha hai. Humko to bahut santosh hai, bara anand hai. (Of course, of course. The curse of a saintly person is actually a blessing. Radharani is love. She is the mother. For the benefit of the son, the mother sends her son away. Now such wonderful activities are going on. I am highly satisfied, very happy.) That Raṅganātha temple is that temple where they do not allow us in. So Sampat Kumar and all of these paṇḍitas , they will sign one letter trying to request them, also with the Purī people, to request them to let us in. While they are all here they will do that. Also Sampat Kumar was thinking that in November and December in South India the weather is nice because the rainy season is finished, and it would be a very good time to go and visit many of the temples. He personally knows many people in all the big temples: Shri Rangam, Kañcipuram, Mahabalipuram, Tirupati. They could arrange for receptions and programs. *Hum abhi tak Bharat varsh ka divya bhumi ka dekha nahi. Hum ghar chor kar ke Vrindavan me ake baith gaya. Fir Vrindavan se Amerika chala gaya. (Until now I haven't totally seen the divine land of Bhārata*-varṣa. After leaving home I went to Vṛndāvana and was sitting there. Then from Vṛndāvana I went to America.) Amerika chala gaya. (He went to America.) : Vrindavan me to . . . (indistinct) . . . (In Vrindavan . . . (indistinct) . . .) Amerika jana nahi to agga hua, yea sab jaga prachar karne ke liye bhej diya . . . (There was order to go to America, he was sent to preach all over the world . . .) : . . . (indistinct) sanskrit . . . Amrit hai Bhagwan, amrit . . . (God is nectar, nectar . . .) : . . . (indistinct) Yeh to zahar hai dunia . . . (indistinct) . . . dunia is a poison. God is amritam.. . . (indistinct) . . . Just opposite na. Das koti ashirbad kariye aap ke charno ki . . . (This world is poison . . . (indistinct) . . . world is poison. God is nectar . . . (indistinct) . . . they are just opposite. Please bless me ten million times with the dust of your feet . . .) . . . (indistinct) . . . iska bandobast karie. (. . . (indistinct) . . . please arrange for this.) Ji. Oh to ho raha hai. Yes sab keya ho raha hai Maharaj? Ye to sab bandobast ho raha hai, nahi. (Yes sir. That is already happening. What all this activities are meant for Mahārāja? All these are that arrangement only.) Lekin yeh to mushkil hai, to iha do char mahina lega na, Government . . . (But there is difficulty, if it takes few months here then government . . .) Government ka thoda abhi policy, aap ashirbad karie to . . . (The policy of the government now somewhat unfavorable, if you shower your blessings then . . .) Is waje se, isliye, jab tak Bharat ke log . . . (indistinct) . . . (That's why, until the people of India . . . (indistinct) . . .) Politics nahi, government jo hai na, bhakt bane hai, tab tak. (Not about politics, the government that is here, let them become devotee, till then . . .) Nahi nahi, government ka baat nahi hai. Bolta hai ki yeh jo prachar karjo, jabtak Indian log, samajh rahe hai na. Yeh mushkil se bahar se ate hai . . . (indistinct) . . . (No no, it's not about government. I am saying that this preaching activity, until Indian people, are you getting my point. These people comes from outside with difficulty . . . (indistinct) . . .) Nahi, karenge. Aap ke ashirbad hai inke upar haat hai to sab kam hoga. (Yes, we will do. Your blessings are there, you have kept your hand upon him, so everything will happen.) Nahi nahi aap sunie na. (No no, you please listen.) Ji ji. (Yes sir.) Jaise yeh log sahajog karte hai. (The way these people (foreigners) are cooperating.) Ha, sab log karenge. (Yes, all will do.) Indian log karte . . . (Had Indian people also . . .) Karenge, milke karenge. (They will also do, we will do it together.) (indistinct) . . . Indians, they are not coming. Intelligent, educated Indians, they are not coming . . . (indistinct) . . . Boliye sabko, aap log milke samjhaie. (You tell everyone, convince them together.) Swamiji bolte hai ki sabko samjhaiye, jab Bharat me baithe hai . . . (Swamiji is telling that we should tell everyone, when we are sitting in India itself . . .) Ha, especially South Indians. (Yes, especially South Indians.) Ha, inko samjhake . . . (Yes, to make them understand . . .) South Indian. : Jo bhi inke sath milke kam hi hai. (Whatever it may be, the job has to be done with them together.) There, still their Indian original culture is still there in South India. Other parts of India, they are not now . . . (indistinct) : Correct. South India . . . (indistinct) Swamiji bolte hai iha ka bhi aap prachar kariye. Sabko pakarke inke sath milake is karya ko badhana chahiye . . . (indistinct) . . . yeh iha ka sabse bara . . . (indistinct) . . . south India ka. To yeh , agar isme bhag liya to sab kam ho jayega. (Swamiji is saying that you people also began preaching here. Get everyone and bring them together and spread the preaching activity . . . (indistinct) . . . he is the biggest . . . (indistinct) . . . of south India. If he takes part in this then all the job will be accomplished.) Isliye to aapko bol raha hu. Indian our American milkar kam karenge. (That's why I am telling you people. Both Indian and American will have to work together.) Milkar kam karenge. (We will work together.) To isse bada asar parega, prabhab parega. (Then there will be great effect, good influence will be there.) Jaroor prabhab parega. (Of course it will have influence.) Yeh to hai, aap Indian ko bulaiye. Sab mil kar ke gao gao me jaye.Ye jo bus hai hum log ka . . . (indistinct) . . . kahi bhi gao me giya, baith giya. Bhagawan ka murti hai, seba puja hoga, uha prasad bitaran hua . . . (indistinct) . . . (These people (foreigners) are here, you bring the Indians. Let them go villege after villege together. We have bus with us . . . (indistinct) . . . any time visit a villege and sit there. God's Deity is present, so worship and service will happen, then prasadam serving also will be done . . . (indistinct) . . .) : Har gao me jayega? (Will they go to every village?) Ha, nahi bus me baithke sab le jayenge, prachar karenge. (No, they will take everyone by bus and will be preaching there.) Ha. Yeh to mazood hai . . . (indistinct) . . . jada nahi, ek dafa inka , ek dafa unka. Abhi arrangement kijiye. Ye log ko bhi mazood hai. Abhi kuch din me aa jenge. Achha sikshit. (Yes. These people are here . . . (indistinct) . . . not too much, once their turn then next time others. Please make the arrangements now only. These people are present here. Within few days they will come. Well educated.) Ji ji. (Yes, yes.) Jo samajh sake. (Who will be able to make them understand.) Bilkul. (Very true.) To, dekhiye abhi to hum . . . (So you see, now we . . .) We have got buses. We have got buses—two, three. Any number of. It is very simple method, that we combine together, Indian and foreigners. Go in buses. Kahi bhi baithe. Kahi bhi baithe. (You may sit anywhere. You may sit anywhere.) Bhagawan sarbatra hai, sab uska hi seba karna hai. (God is present everywhere, we all are supposed to serve Him.) Bhagwan ka murti hai. Seva puja hua, bhog hua, sabko prasad dijiye. Bas dekhiye keya hua. Yeh log to majood hai, aap log kuch le aiye, abhi kam suru hoga. (We have a Diety of the Lord. Worship and service will happen, bhoga offering will be done, distribute prasada to all. Then you see what happens. These people are already present here, you bring some people, we will begin the work now.) Karenge maharaj. (We will do it Mahārāja.) Koi mushkil nahi. (It's not at all difficult.) Nahi karte hai. Bangalore ate hai, jitna ho sakte hai, hum log bhi karte hai. (Yes let's do it. Let's go to Bangalore, as much as possible, we will also try to do.) Now it should be organized movement. This is simply . . . Aap bhi ek dafa Bangalore ane ki kripa kariye. (You also please visit Bangalore once.) Ha, jaroor jayenge. (Of course, I will go.) You must also come in Bangalore once. Then it will be all . . . Iska. (Regarding this issue) Immediately think over that these Europeans, Americans are there. Now take up the association of another, at least one dozen . . . (indistinct) . . . Indians, and let us go together, gao to gao (village to village) . . . what do you think about it? Bas achha hi hoga, Bhagwan ka prachar hoga. Sab jaga nam kirtan hoga. (It will be good, God's preaching will happen. Everywhere there will be nama kirtana .) We could go from Madras . . . Anywhere. Anywhere. Any village. All the villages . . . You start from anywhere and go anywhere and sit down and chant. Sab bhoomi ko . . . (All the land . . .) *In India, Bhārata*-bhūmi jaha hari-kīrtana sunega, (In India, land of Bharata, whenever people will here hari kirtana ,) thousands will come. That is India. You won't have to advertise that, No, rom rom me hai. (No, it's in every pore.) *"There is hari*-kīrtana . Come." No. As soon as you begin, immediately thousands. As soon as there will be sugar grain, immediately ants will come. Ants will come. It is like that. This is a fact. : Correct, correct. Hundred per cent correct. Bas jaha mridang baja sab log aa jayenge kirtan karte. (As soon as the sound of mrdanga will be heard, all the people will come to take part in kirtana .) Ye jo Bharat bhumi me janma hota hai. (When one takes birth in the land of Bharata.) Bilkul. (Very true.) Ye Bhagawat me hai aap to jante hai, Debta log prarthana karte ki kuch humara punna agar rahe geya to humko Bharat me janme. (This is in Bhagavat , you might be knowing, demigods are praying that if we have some pious credit left then let us take birth in the land of Bharata.) Bharat me janma de. Bharat ke to rom rom me Bhagwan hai, usme keya. (Let us take birth in Bharata. In every particle of Bharata, God consciousness is there—there's nothing strange in it.) : Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā . Iska bandobast kijiye. (Please make arrangements for this.) Immediately. Just get one dozen good—I mean, good or bad, it doesn't matter—who is ready to work for this purpose. And our men are ready. Our buses are ready. So let us go. There is no question of selecting place. Anywhere. Anywhere. : Any place, anywhere, all the places. You go and find out some good place for camping and begin kīrtana . Get down from the bus and begin kīrtana . Then all friends will come immediately. They will offer shelter, they will offer food—everything. Ha yeh to Bharat ki parampara, chali ati hai sadi se. (Yes this is the tradition of Bharata, going on for ages.) One thing is that their difficulty is language. Indians are there, they can speak on the local language. They can explain everything. Yes. Therefore wanted. Swamiji Bhagwan ki seba ke liye to hum log aye hai chinta nahi. (Swamiji, we have come for the service of the Lord, you please don't worry.) : Chinta kahe ko hai? (Why there will be worry?) Swamiji to sabka leader hai. (Swamiji will be the leader for all.) : (indistinct) . . . Tirupati me jake, Tirupati me Balaji ka darshan, Padmavati ka darshan, oha sare jake, Bhagwan ka darshan le karke, oha bhi bhajan our kirtan karke . . . (. . . (indistinct) . . . going to Tirupati, taking darshan of Balaji there and taking darshan of Padmavati, going there and taking darshan of their Lordships, doing bhajan and kirtan there . . .) In Vaikuṇṭha Ekādaśī. In Shri Rangam they have this giant festival every year, the biggest festival in India. It's Vaikuṇṭha ekādaśī in December. Last December we went there. *Very big. November*-December is a very good time. Apni Ranga Ji dekhechen? (Have you taken darshan of Ranganath?) Prabhapuda: Na. (No.) *Kanchi*-puram. Baradrāj. From here. Sidha south pura. (Straight to all in the South) . . . (indistinct) . . . up to Cape Comorin. Ahobila, Tirupati : Yes, all of them, all of them. He knows all the places . . . (indistinct) This is the original birth, Shri Rangam. Now with Suraji's cooperation make a program. *Yes, we will do like that. November*-December will be very suitable time. Then in January, the Kumbha-melā, we will try to organize something big there also. January, Allahabad, Kumbha-melā 26 aadmi . . . (26 people) . . . (indistinct) Hum log gaye the pura south India . . . (We had gone to the whole south India . . .) . . . (indistinct) Inko bhi le jayenge sab. Karenge , prachar. (Will take him also with us. Will preach.) (pause) Bas aap ki ashirbad hum log leke chalenge. Sab achha hoga. (We will go ahead with your blessings, Everything will be good.) (pause) That's all. Stop now. I was just going to say you should take massage now. Ha? I was just going to say it's time for massage. Yes. Can I tell you about the bank? Yes. Punjab National Bank is down the street, and we have our temple account there. Oh, Punjab National Bank is there. That's all right. So how much do you want to deposit? That I have to count. So we can do it any time. Yes. *And before you arrange this Kumbha*-melā—it's very cold there. Don't talk now. Okay. (long pause) . . . (indistinct) Everything is going on. Wood carving, cement lay, painting, marble polishing. The yajña . If we would have remained there . . . these people are coming. How they could see? . . . (indistinct) Still, it would have been very quiet. We are not . . . (indistinct) . . . besides that, we don't want quietness. We want how many are . . . (indistinct) Jaya . If you wanted quietness, you could have stayed in Vṛndāvana. Yes. (end) Conversation A -- August 19, 1976, Hyderabad (Conversation About Mayapura Construction) . . . to keep it going we took a minimum amount of ten thousand a month. We were getting ten thousand a month. But to finish the building we require more, more per month, because ten thousand is just the most minimum amount just to keep it going. So you are collecting? Yes, but that is going for maintenance. I give twenty thousand a month now. Maintenance, twenty thousand? Well, that includes agriculture, the gurukula —everything. It includes everything. Actual maintenance, about eight or ten thousand. Other things, landscaping and other things . . . Landscaping . . . we built you a very wonderful park, very nice park. We've also put a walkway around the ghāṭa with stairs. Now, what is the position of our big project? That's what I was going to tell you first. So what happened was that the application we had given to the Chief Secretary and the Board of Revenue, that had gone from them to Mr. Choudhuri, who in turn had sent it on to the Commissioner. The Commissioner sent to District Magistrate. The Commissioner sent to the District Magistrate. So District Magistrate, he gave a favorable reply. He has given? Favorable reply. He said that, "This is a good project. It will help the district." He only said that they should maybe get 300 acres instead of 350, or like that. He reduced something. Then it went back again to the Commissioner, who was a Christian. He's the one I mentioned. He wrote bad report. Then when Choudhuri got it, he wrote a very good report. He wrote a very good report. He said that there's no question of Hindu or Muslim. Just like in Bangkok they have that one big Viṣṇu Temple. That is a . . . or the Taj Mahal. This is no longer any type of religious . . . this is for all mankind. Similarly, this Māyāpur will be a monument for the whole mankind. For the whole world. For the whole world. So in this way he gave a very good, very good statement. Then that went to the Chief Secretary again, who had to give it to the Chief Minister. So the Chief Minister, he does not have a good opinion. He did not have a good opinion of our Society. Who is the Chief Minister? Siddhanta Shankaraya. He is very expert man. *He's a very expert . . . he's one of their chief politicians from India. He used to be Education Minister of Indira Gandhi. He's one of her right*-hand men. Very important for Bengal. Bengal is the most important state, and he has very prominent position to the Prime Minister as advisor. So at that time, I couldn't write him a letter. He had written that . . . something which made Mr. Choudhuri very angry. He wrote something which made Mr. Choudhuri very angry. Made also the Chief Secretary angry. He wrote . . . No, who wrote? The Chief Minister wrote. He said, "Because of the impassioned . . ." He said: "I would have refused this application except for the impassioned appeal of one of my senior officers, namely Mr. Choudhuri. They are asking for three hundred acres of land, but the East India Company, they asked only twenty acres of land, and they have conquered the whole of India." (loud kīrtana in background) Eh? "East India Company, they have asked only twenty acres of land, but they have conquered the whole of India." "They ruled India for two hundred years." Oh. "Ruled India for two hundred years." Who said? Chief Minister? The Chief Minister wrote that the East India Company purchased twenty acres of land and ruled India for two hundred years. That was his reply to our application. Chief Minister said? Yes. They're afraid that by taking this, we will rule India. Anyway, that's a very frivolous statement. That was a frivolous statement. No, that, ruling over India, they politically ruled. But we're not politicians. Even if we are rule, we shall rule spiritually. We have nothing to do with politics. That's the point. That's why even the Chief Secretary, he became . . . They didn't take it seriously. The Chief Secretary and Mr. Choudhuri did not take that very seriously, that comment. It didn't end there. It's a frivolous comment. It's progressed. That's one month ago. Since then it's progressed. Then he said, "Let there be more inquiry on the nature of the Society and its source of funds, etc . . ." In the meantime, many people had come and inquired about our Society—CID, CI . . . Also the industrial . . . one industrial from the . . . they want to know how we will arrange for so many work for so many people. I met them there. They want to know, "How will you get everyone to work?" They sent . . . many, from many different governmental departments, came, inquiring, "How you will do this?" And they all went away satisfied. We showed them the handloom; we showed them the gośālā , we showed them the children. Even Tarun Kanti Ghosh, he came, and we lined up fifty children, and they read the Gītār Gān , and he almost started crying. He liked it so much. He said: "Oh, you have done so nicely with the children." So they were impressed with the work. So at that time Mr. Choudhuri, he was put down. But he said: "I have not yet lost hope." He said, but he was put down a bit. That night personally talked to the Minister of Nadia, Anandamoy Visvas, who I personally met last year. And he was telling him that for Nadia he should sponsor this. Even the negative political issue with the Chief Minister, he should push it through. In the meantime, I wrote an application to Tarun Kanti Ghosh, who up to now we hadn't asked. Because it had already passed all the preliminaries. And I went and spoke to him. I told him that, "It has already passed all the government stages. Now simply the Chief Minister has to be convinced." He said: "No, no. You are of good integrity. There is no doubt about ISKCON. I will immediately tell him." He called up the Chief Secretary. The Chief Minister was out then. Later on he talked to Chief Minister. The next time I saw Mr. Choudhuri . . . before that, he told me . . . that's when he told me that, "Maybe Prabhupāda should see the Chief Minister." Now he said it's not necessary. He liked your reply to them. After that, I saw Mr. Tarun Kanti Ghosh. Then I saw Choudhuri again a week later. At that time he said: "Now everything is changed." He said: "Now the Chief Minister, that problem is solved." He has written that, "Let Mr. Choudhuri take the decision. Let him take the decision. But I cannot simply take the decision. They'll say I am biased. I must work in the ordinary ways of the government. But there is no trouble now. You have waited so long. You wait another thirty or sixty days." He said: "Wait another sixty days, and then you'll get it." When he wrote? When he wrote this? He spoke to me just two weeks ago. Two weeks ago. Then, last week, again I saw him just before Janmāṣṭamī. I asked him . . . then I gave him invitation to Janmāṣṭamī. At that time he told me that . . . after was this bad publicity. He told me, "Now this bad publicity, I think it has given us some benefit." Śrīla Prabhupāda, could you give darśana over here later? They've all been waiting for your darśana . Hey, wait a minute. We're talking about Māyāpur. We're talking about Māyāpur. (indistinct conversation) Is there . . .? Is there necessity? There's no necessary. Okay. But we had you down on schedule for a lecture. So I said that you're not lecturing, but they just wanted to have a look at you. Later we can have . . . Tomorrow I shall. Tomorrow. Okay. Tomorrow I shall lecture. Go ahead. *Now, just a few days ago, when I invited him for Janmāṣṭamī, then I asked him what the . . . he told me at that time, he said: "Now . . ." He had recently received a phone call from the Chief Secretary. "You see? Now your favorite project is going to be spoiled." Then he went over to see the Chief Secretary. He showed him an article from the Rāja*-Sabhā , how the member of Parliament had given this challenge that, "Are these people CIA or this or that?" Then Mr. Choudhuri said: "Sir, I am not afraid." He said: "Why not?" "Because I have you, don't I?" Then the Chief said: "Yes. You have won me over. I believe in this project." Then he said that now the Chief Minister has agreed that the project be sanctioned. But he said that, "I don't want to take the full brunt of the decision. Let the Nadia District Planning Committee take the decision." Nadia? District Planning Committee. So the head of the Nadia District Planning Committee is that minister, Anandamoy Visvas. So I went to him, and I gave him an invitation for the Janmāṣṭamī. When I saw him, then . . . you gave me that letter. So I showed him that letter where you have said that, "Every day we're selling sixty thousand dollars' of books, and I thank you for helping me." I said: "Sir, we are simply doing Prabhupāda's order. This is not our work. It is not a foreign work. It is his work; we are simply doing it. He is selling so many books that he wants to invest some of the money to develop Mahāprabhu's birth site. That is all. He has got the money. Why he should not invest it?" He said: "I am going to have a meeting of the committee next week, and I'm going to push your project through. We're going to pass it." That is the last word I heard. So it looks that everything is very good right now . . . but we have to keep our Society very pure, because they're investigating us very strong. All the time they're having people watching us. There is now in Māyāpur . . . the talk is, there's some special advisors to the Prime Minister are in Māyāpur now investigating to make sure. *Some of the local people that were working with me, getting petitions, they came and told me that some people from Delhi or outside were inquiring about us, about Bhavānanda Goswami, about Jayapatākā, about this project, about how the devotees are dealing with the public, whether we are doing any anti*-Indian work. All sorts of questions they are asking. So it's very important that we keep very up-and-up right now. All the time. But otherwise the government, they are happy with our work. And so far, Mr. Choudhuri said, other people have indicated that they have found no bad report about our Society, although they are looking so hard. Therefore they are passing. The State government is very favorable. But the doubt, of course, is coming from the central government because they don't know us. But the state government, they are very favorable. Everyone we've met within the State, they like us very much. They like the Society, they like your work, and, of course, they like your books. The local police intelligence officer in Krishnagar, when I went to see him, he told me, Ami tomake bharatiya nagarik kore dicchi. Ami kore dicchi. (I am making you an Indian citizen. I am making you.) Like that, he told me. "Definitely I make you an Indian citizen." So they are favorable. I don't know how much they can do, but locally they are favorable. Now on the weekend we have tours of the building. Many groups of people come. Fifty in a group sometimes, to come and visit. Tourists. Yes, tourists, and we take them on tour of the building. That's Subhaga. He takes them on tour and he gives some preaching. So many people are coming. Subhaga is in charge of that? Yes, he does. Others are there also. One new boy is very good. He's . . . Kiśora. Kiśora dāsa. He's also translating. He's a little more strong than Subhaga, although new. Very good boy, very humble. He's from a good family also. What is the flood situation? Flood situation . . . Very mild monsoon this year. Almost drought. Almost. Very mild. Very little rain. Rain is not very strong. No. The monsoon is not strong. Our aus (a type of rice) crop has been hampered because of lack of rain and early monsoon. Only in the past week there's been a little rain. Otherwise, before, there was very little rain. Not fully drought . . . But less rain than previous years. Everything is very green and nice, but so far as agriculture is concerned . . . It requires more rain. It requires more rain and early tide. Right now the river is full, but it is not flooding. It is full. See, Mr. Choudhuri, he was interested. At that time when the Chief Minister wrote that, then he wrote this, that "If you were to see the Chief Minister, then this type of letter could be submitted and he would definitely see you," although it is not necessary to see him. Do you think it is? No, it's not necessary to personally see him. You might write . . . when you come to Māyāpur we'll write him invitation that he can come and see and visit you there. That was better. Mr. Choudhuri said that, "Your Guru Mahārāja, he has also got the Vaiṣṇava pride not to see the politicians." He said: "This is a good stand. I respect this very much." Actually he mentioned once to Abhirāma confidentially that, "If this project comes through, then you'll be requiring some liaison officer, because there will be so many government things. At that time I can work for you as your permanent advisor and go to Delhi and here and there and do all the work." I think he wants a job. I thought that Mr. Choudhuri would do everything, but that is not the position. Almost he is doing everything. Actually he's trying to say that he did everything. But I think that when we saw Tarun Kanti Ghosh, that cleared up . . . that matter with Chief Minister, that cleared that up. As far as the other lower secretary men are . . . Mr. Choudhuri did everything. The Chief Minister doubt, I think Tarun helped clear that up. That's the only thing that he couldn't change the mind of is the Chief Minister. Otherwise he did everything else, almost, you can say. He came on the last ekādaśī . Just last ekādaśī , what, ten days ago? Seven days ago he came for the ekādaśī to Māyāpur just to see. Who? Tarun Kanti Ghosh. He took prasādam , he took the ekādaśī , and he liked it very much. *I just saw him also just before Janmāṣṭamī, and he was still very favorable then. We talked for about an hour and a half. He introduced me to all the MLAs of the twenty*-four paraganās . Tarun Kanti? When I go preaching, then I go, and the government MLA and Congress people, they also help me. They arrange sometimes places for me to stay and big program. And they protect that no people cause us any disturbances. Although we don't . . . What about our Godbrothers? The Godbrothers . . . They are also opposing? Subhaga made a very bad . . . Bhavānanda sent him over to invite Śrīdhara Swami for Janmāṣṭamī, as a show of respect. When he went there, and Śrīdhara Swami . . . he's not so clever boy. So Śrīdhara Swami asked him that, "Oh, what about your land acquisition?" What does he know about land acquisition? We never discussed anything with him. He can only know by hearsay or any . . . so then Subhaga said: "Oh, it's in the hands of the Chief Minister," for which I reprimanded him. He should have denied any knowledge of the matter at all. "Why you have given any information?" But they are very interested in these things, and maybe they are still trying to stop it, but I don't think they have the power. They have no power. They are the ones who have raised up that first petition, that Surendra dāsa, I think, and others. They are behind that. They themselves were in the market trying to get petition against, but no one would sign for them. We made a little of political . . . because in Māyāpur now we have got seventy percent of the people are . . . In our favor. In our favor strongly. And only a minority are actively opposed, one percent even. And thirty per cent are in doubt. So, so much so that even I saw recently the MLA who was previously against us. And when I saw him I invited him for Janmāṣṭamī, and he said what about our program for a bridge? I said: "Oh, yes, I discussed with Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he suggested having a floating bridge to Navadvīpa. That will be very short, very easily done, with least expense." He said: "Anyway, next time you come to Navadvīpa you can discuss with me. I am ready to help you in all ways." So he has turned his mind around. Who? The MLA, the local Member of Legislative Assembly. He was previously a little against us. But because our whole . . . (indistinct) . . . is for us, if he doesn't cooperate he won't get their vote, because they want the development in their area. Also the . . . he is changing a little. Everyone is saying that our Society is actually simply doing sincere work. As they are doing. This food distribution has been very important. Oh, yes. *Now the price of rice has gone up by about eighty paisa . From two rupees to two*-eighty. So the poor class of people, they are in a very bad situation. So now our attendance has gone up from twelve hundred to two thousand on that Saturday and Sunday, each day. So we have two shifts. So many people are coming that they come from ten o'clock in the morning and wait, because otherwise they can't get a boat in time to cross the river. So then we were very surprised to read in a recent newsletter from LA that, "They're going to restart the food relief." But we never knew it stopped. We never knew that they had stopped the food relief. We saw then that he said, "They're going to restart." But we never stopped, and we were very surprised to see that. And now they say . . . Who said? Rāmeśvara. To maintain this food relief from the centers only requires what? Fifteen hundred dollars a month. Something like that, yes. About fifteen hundred dollars a month. So little amount, and so much service is done. Yes. So I know Tamāla, he was giving one thousand, but he has stopped now. He was giving one thousand a month. And now he has stopped. Rāmeśvara, you wrote him a letter that, "Jayapatākā Swami should be sent money for ISKCON Food Relief." And he told me that, "I am sending you. I have four thousand dollars," which he sent. Of that we had already been 36,000 rupees in debt because we hadn't received money for six months. But he wrote in a newsletter to the temples that, "Prabhupāda has wrote me to send money to Jayapatākā Swami; and now we're going to start again ISKCON Food Relief." But that was making it appear that we had stopped. But actually we had never stopped. Rāmeśvara. He did not know? Rāmeśvara had stopped collecting from the temples. But we had never stopped . . . Anyway, he'll collect. That's all. So anyway, your program everyone is appreciating. When the newspapermen came out, at that time the . . . (indistinct) . . . development officer he came there, and when the newspapermen were there he sat down with all the poor people, and he took also, and said: "This is very good. This is our national service." And they photographed. "National service"? Yes, he mentioned. Still, though, because of these articles, it has been a little bit hard to secure money from people now, because the people who are giving us money, they are under investigation also, the rich people. So when they see we are under investigation, oh, then they get afraid. They don't want to give. Why? Because we're under investigation and they're also being investigated, so they don't want to endanger . . . the government is every day raiding the houses of the rich people. Anyway, what is the investigation? They are being investigated for income tax. For income tax. The government is making it so that no one can give any donation. They don't want any more donation. They want everything to come to the government. So it's not easy to get money locally. We are getting enough to do maintenance, but it is not like it was, say, two or three years ago, when you could get 25,000, 15,000, especially in Calcutta, where the income tax, every day they are raiding the houses. Even if people give, a life . . . patron member, 2,222, if they are not so big, they want to give in installment, and even though they'll give at one time with postdated . . . they want different receipt, because if they give one lump sum, then it makes it seem that like they are very rich. Although they'll give you at one time, they want small, small receipt so that the income tax won't think, "Oh, they are giving so much donation? They must be very rich. They must have hidden wealth which we can capture from them by investigation." So in this way they are very much pressurized. Sometimes they prefer to give money without receipt. Soon on the whole, our program is going on. Oh, yes. No, it's going on more. The book distribution is going on more. More people are joining. There's no hindrance. That I want. These are simply minor obstacles. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Pālikā was just wondering if you wanted anything tonight. Yes. If she can . . . she can make little vegetable—potato, tomato. Purīs ? Yes. Or one paraṭā . One paraṭā . Just potatoes and tomato? Yes, tomato, potato, one vegetable. Prabhupāda's house. Your house. You have not decided where you want to put your house. I wanted that if the major project is done, then we can select. What do you think? Let the big land be acquired and pick the best place. Let the whole land be acquired and then pick the best place. You wanted to wait for the whole land to be acquired, and then pick the best place. Yes. And not I want, but that you all see, which is the best place. For the most privacy. For the time being, that place is very nice, that pond. What is there? It's become congested there now. Yes. We have 125 people now. 138. 138 people now. 138 people are living there. Women, children . . . Yes. There's fifty children now. So that place is now . . . the front has become somewhat congested . . . Congested. . . . with noise and children. What about the painting? Painting is going on. Oh, yes. They've done about sixteen or seventeen, I think. Our men? Yes, yes. Two men. Ānakadundubhi and . . . What's his name? Pāṇḍu. *(indistinct) . . . I went to Haridaspur as soon as I received your letter because Bahusvarūpa was there, making arrangement for the Janmāṣṭamī festival. So I spoke to all those people for two days, Thursday and Friday. And the land is in the name of the zamindar , Mr . . . Ghosh family. There's fourteen members who have to sign. So in Haridaspur nine members are living, and they are all agreed for signing. And they say the other five members live in Calcutta. Once they sign the deed, they'll also sign. There's no doubt, because that's not even in their possession. That's in the public's possession. And all the public, Anchal*-pradhan and all the other leaders of that village, they are also all eager to have us start. I think that we can also raise some money in the neighborhood. There's some relatively rich people. So that . . . I was trying to register that before I came here, but because Monday is . . . that zamindar has one haṭṭa . And that's . . . his haṭṭa day is Monday, so he was busy. And Tuesday was Janmāṣṭamī by government of West Bengal, and Wednesday was our Janmāṣṭamī and Haridaspur Janmāṣṭamī, and I came here today, Thursday, so we couldn't do it beforehand. But as soon as I go back, I can register that. And . . . but someone should immediately come, Mūrti or Saurabha or someone, and see that land. No, no, we have to . . . yes. We have to see, make plans. *Because actually just by giving the site plan you can't make a plan, because that's a high area, and it goes down to the river. So from our land to the river, that is also under our use. That is kashjami . That is no*-man's land. But that we can also use, and that has to be some strengthening so that when the river . . . and rain cannot wear away the side. So these details they should come and see, and then they could make a proper plan, I think. Without seeing, they can't make. 'Cause it's a very small area, it should be very well planned. And the local people there, they are very innocent people. They don't seem to have any type of enmity or envy at all. They all come and chant and see. Although they don't strictly follow the rules, naturally—they eat fish and other things and smoke—but they seem to be simple people. If someone would work with him, I think he could make the whole village gradually Kṛṣṇa conscious. Yes. But who that person is right now to work, that we have to train up some of our men. Because right now . . . He can do, Svarūpa. He can take training, and he can do. And then, gradually, others will join. I think all the children, they could become brahmacārīs . If the parents would be agreeable, they could become brahmacārīs and attend morning some class, then go to school. In this way, if the whole village could be made Kṛṣṇa conscious at least by chanting and attending, chanting . . . Chanting is the main thing. Chanting and distributing prasādam . If we get prasādam , then . . . and I think that they all contribute some grain. They are very poor agricultural people, but there's no theft there. I asked. There's one man who has three acres. Three bighās of land he's giving. So they just grow their rice there and . . . You can ask that instead of making paraṭā , a light khicuṛi in the morning. That is . . . Instead of that sabjī and everything. No, sabjī can make. Khicuṛi instead of paraṭā , as she made in the morning. So khicuṛi will be easy, light. You want some khicuṛi and the potato? Put in the khicuṛi and tomato. Like in the morning. Yes. Do you want anything like purī or anything to eat with it? No. Just khicuṛi with the vegetable. That will be easily digested. Digestion is not good now. This will help digestion. Yes. This medicine. Yes. There is ginger, I think. No. This is ajwain . My only concern is about the Immigration Department. They are gagging you, "Now you finished . . . go out. Go away, go out . . ." So they are making so big, big arrangement. If my foreign disciples are forced to go away, then what is the happen? That is . . . Well, as far as myself . . . of course, I was supposed to leave yesterday. But there is very easy process. You can come in and out and stay six months. So that, make plans. That will . . . otherwise we are making so big, big, big plan. Who will manage? For that matter, we can get . . . even the American citizen, they can get outside . . . by various means you can get Canadian or English passports. But even then, we can go to Lahore, get visa three months, come in, but you can stay six months. Then go out again, get another visa, come in and out. There is no problem. We have already done that with some of the other men. Make . . . find out such means. Otherwise . . . Alexander the Great, having so many kingdom, and as soon as he goes away, it is finished. *Also, if you would write . . . I think if you wrote a letter to Brahmānanda Reddy and that Mr. Mehta, the Deputy Assistant or whatever, minister, regarding these questions coming in the Rāja*-sabhā about this Māyāpur and Vṛndāvana, "Actually these two centers are my . . . I am founder- ācārya of these centers, and the people working there are not independent of me. I have asked them to come for assisting me." Then, if a letter like that is written to them, and send me one copy, that will help immigration also, I think. Also another investigation, we're always asked, "Where is your headquarters?" And then "Our headquarters is in India." It must be always stated, "Our headquarters are India." If we say "foreign," that means we are controlled by foreign. We must publish everywhere that our head . . . No, we have mentioned headquarters Bombay? We just said offices. Yes. They think that Los Angeles is our headquarters. That is for America. We explain like that. But real headquarter here. I think if one letter is given that, "We are purely Indian, that I am the ācārya , and they are simply helping me, they are not . . ." Yes, that is the fact. Actual facts is . . . that would help, if such a letter was given. Then on the basis of that, we can also go and preach or talk, or we can show that to the local people, that "This is . . ." Because they keep thinking that we are coming on our own. Because you are outside traveling, they see us only, and they think we are independent. No, in every letter heading there is my name, " Ācārya , Founder- ācārya ." That is their stupidity. But if some . . . that one direct letter, short letter, then if we have a copy I'll show that to the CID there, that "This, Prabhupāda has written to the Minister of Home. This is in answer to your question." Then take that copy. I'll make one draft. No, I have written already letter? You've written already letter? To the Home Minister? I didn't get. Has he written a letter to the Home Minister? No, Home Minister has given one letter. I have that letter. You have one. Oh. Also, all over Bengal people are appreciating. I went . . . when we go preaching in the small towns . . . (aside) Wait, I am coming. Among the . . . amongst these . . . not only for India, but the whole world. You are doing nice work to push this movement. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura wanted Indians, Americans. They can . . . Prabhupāda also. Now make plans how to . . . we are not concerned only with India. All over the world. Make plan. Think over. Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence. Prabhupāda would come to Māyāpur. When is your program for coming to Māyāpur? All the devotees are offering their obeisances to you. Bhavānanda Goswami, he is following very strictly the cāturmāsya this year. He doesn't eat anything before sunrise. The weather there is very nice, because the monsoon is mild. It is very nice, cool weather. I have got a bad impression, Bengal during rainy season. Yes, right. Is it not? This year, for the first two months it was . . . No, it was not rainy season. This season. Otherwise, any season in Bengal, not are very good. Insect season. Not only insect. There are . . . insects are there? There's no insects now. Rainy season no insects. No, after rainy season. After rainy season. After rainy season. And insect is not so bad. Indigestion. Indigestion. That is the . . . What part of India is good during rainy season? Is there any part of India that's good during rainy season? Vṛndāvana's not too bad. I think Vṛndāvana. Is it not? I was there last year. I only know Bengal. (laughs) You are now Bengali. (laughs) And they are not giving citizenship? *Myself? What happened was I applied last September. So now it's nearly one year. So they had sent my application from Māyāpur to Calcutta, Writer's Building. Again back. Again Writer's Building, then to Delhi. Then Delhi sent again back. I went, and I asked the secretary, and then I found out that they had sent again back from Delhi, again back to Māyāpur, and then re*-investigated me. At that time they brought in some local people, and one investigator, he said that, "This Jayapatākā Swami, we have heard that he is a very bad person. He beats the people." They said: "No, we never heard such thing." "No, no. We have heard that he is very bad." In this way, by negative they are testing. They came and told me that for two hours police is drilling three different people from Navadvīpa and from Māyāpur. In this way no one said a bad . . . No, if you are a famous man, then they'll do. That is very good. Him and Bhavānanda. Now Bhavānanda is more famous. He is notorious. But now he is in the papers. (laughing) He . . . you are famous; he is notorious. It is very difficult to deal with these nonsense. They are devotees, and neither notorious nor famous. Our Godbrothers, they do not like Bhavānanda. Eh? No, they don't like me anymore either. Ācchā ? What is your fault? They always thought, because I am not so outspoken, that "Jayapatākā, we can get him to do as we like." But ultimately I don't do anything for them either, so now they don't like me either. Bhavānanda openly was against, and I was passive. I didn't say anything. But when they came to me I also . . . actually, I am afraid. Mādhava Mahārāja, he invited me to attend his program, some festival day . . . Where? At his Maṭha. Ten days? Ten days. *No, it was a three*-day program. He invited us for one day. But I was afraid to go. He might even poison me. But they personally went . . . That is their business, especially Mādhava Mahārāja. If not materially by poison, then spiritually by ear. One way or other, they have to give poison. So I didn't even want to go. I didn't go, either. Śrīdhara Mahārāja is also within the group? Of course, all those details we don't know. By the way, Tīrtha Mahārāja—very sick. Eh? Oxygen. He can't breath. He is on a bed with oxygen. Life and death any moment. Injection, oxygen, barely staying alive. One day better, one day worse. Now they say better; then again they say worse. In this way his life is going on. But they say that his brother, Samvidananda, a barrister . . . (break) . . . and they've done a great to improve that. Now everyone is improved. Everyone is improved because of their example. That is what we simply need, are people . . . I saw the program so nicely, if people would simply come and work sincerely, they'll make spiritual advancement. They'll chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very quickly they'll become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So now we're seeing that we're being . . . we're demanding that sincere people come. Yes, it may not be the association of lazy people, free hotel. No. Bhavānanda, he's strict on that. He's very strict. Without working, no one can eat. Yes. Not only work, but attending the program. That is essential. They all attend maṅgala-ārati , evening ārati . They should also attend morning class. That's nice. Work is partial. These things are essential. Maṅgala-ārati and morning class. But some of these men are workers. They're not . . . No, our cloth necessities are supplied by ourselves? The cloth? The difficulty is right now we have twenty thousand rupees' worth of cloth in stock. That is all profit. We only are three thousand rupees in debt. But we have all the cloth, we have no customers. Why? There's no customers. We have a huge stock . . . You send immediately to America. They will pay. We sent a newsletter to get people to buy cloth the cloth, because we have a huge stock of it. Now, you ask Bhagavān. He is very clever. He's expert. We are worried that now we're getting good men to join, they're doing good work, then how . . . I think if you prepare according to the order of our foreign centers, then you won't be . . . they will all give. You can make fine cloth? We can make up to eighty count. Eighty count we can make now. They are purchasing cloth, shirt and everything. They're saying . . . sometimes they say that, "The cloth you make is not what we like." But I tell them we can make any cloth. You give us sample. You tell us. We'll make to your specification." They don't . . . Even . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, Jayatīrtha, Bhagavān dāsa, they'll help. The GBCs can write a letter, and I'll sign it, you and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. All right, I'll write a letter. Let's not bother Prabhupāda. How is that, twenty thousand stock is there? You can send it. In India there is no customer? No, because it's made according to European length. Big size. Up to now we've been making according to the devotees' specification. To make for Indian we have to make a different type. We can also make Indian sārī and other thing. They'll be cheaper one. But previously we were making because we thought that all the foreign branches . . . So whatever . . . now you can make Indian style. You keep great stock. Well, we are hearing that they are buying the cloth elsewhere. All right. Come on. All right. Eh? They are buying elsewhere? Yes. They are buying sometimes from other. (to Jayapatākā) All right. Let's go and chant. We'll come back tomorrow. Other thing we can discuss tomorrow. (break) . . . Birla It is difficult to go there. It is difficult to go there. Yes. And here there is more devotion. Here they are devotees. We made this for distributing, and the public, they take and worship in their home, purchase it. (to Jayapatākā) Let's go. They purchase? Yes. Yes. This is Indian printing. Calcutta? Yes. (break) So, so far the building is concerned, that is already settled up. Yes, that's all settled. Then, what other? *Well, there were some other lighter matters. When I was traveling in my preaching, then last time in Māyāpur, when that Haridaspur, when they offered, you mentioned to me that you liked that we develop these . . . all these holy spots. So just as a matter of convenience, whenever I was near any holy spot that you mentioned in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , I would go and just visit the place. So in my tour, one place I went to was very nice, and that sevaite, he spontaneously, when I showed him all your work, he had offered me that he would like to give the temple to you. That temple is much, much more developed than Haridaspur. That's the temple of Maheśa Paṇḍita. Oh. *And that is the seventeenth branch of Lord Nityānanda. It's got the personal Deities of Nitāi*-Gaura that he used to worship. It's got a building worth about fifty thousand rupees on it. A nice, brand-new nātha-mandira. This man is Shri Keshav Priya Brahmacari. He's a disciple of that Krishna Prem, that Mr. Nixtan or something. Oh. He talked personally with Bhaktisiddhānta, I heard, in Sanskrit many years ago. He's a disciple. He's Indian or . . .? *Well, it's an unusual story that that man was a pilot in the World War, and he was flying over Himalayas or something, and he saw Kṛṣṇa in his mind's eye or something. And then, when he was shot down, he saw Kṛṣṇa, and then, when he landed, he searched out who he saw, and he came to Vṛndāvana or something and saw the Deity of Kṛṣṇa, and he became initiated at Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa temple. *Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa This is that guru story. Now he only made a few disciples, and he always was chanting. Also Panditjī, he knew more. I don't know so much about his guru but I've heard a little bit that this foreigner became a guru or became a Vaiṣṇava. Nixon? His previous name is Nixton; his initiated name was Krishna Prem. Oh, yes. He was in Almora. Almora, yes. I don't know exactly where Almora is. Almora is a hilly station, Himalaya. If . . . Almora, one goes from Lucknow. *So this brahmacārī is a disciple of him. Therefore he doesn't have any connection. There's no sampradāya anymore, because his guru disappeared, and somehow he's got this sevā . These are the Deities there of Nitāi*-Gaura. There's about twelve śālagrāma-śilās also. And a little Rādhā-Gopīnātha. This is all mentioned in your purport. It's only about four or five hundred yards. I could read from it. Eh? No, that's all right. It's four or five hundred yards from the Palpara Railway Station. It's the next station from Chuktaha, under Chuktaha police station. Chuktaha? Chakdah. Chakdah. That's where you take your . . . that mango orchard where you take your lunch? That's just the nearest place to Chakdah So he was very pleased with all the work that you are doing. He's in Vṛndāvana now for Janmāṣṭamī. He hadn't been to Vṛndāvana for five years, so he went to Vṛndāvana for darśana . He may be there even when you go. I'm not sure if he'll be there then. You have advised to see our temple? *Yes, he'll definitely visit. I also gave him an introduction that if he goes, he should be received there. He's got . . . the present place where the Deities are situated is on four kuttas of land. And apart from that, where Maheśa Paṇḍita's samādhi is, he's got three bighās of land. That's right next to a four*-hundred-year-old temple. Chakdah is to the . . . it is from Shrirampur? No. No, it's on this side of the Ganges. It's on the eastern side of the Ganges. Oh, eastern. There there's another temple of Jagadīśa Paṇḍita. Hmm, yes. That is run by Mādhava Mahārāja. That's in actual Chakdah, and this is another mile or two miles from Chakdah. That Jagadīśa Paṇḍita mandira has got big Jagannātha Deity, and one stick which Jagadīśa Paṇḍita carried the Jagannātha Deity from Jagannātha Purī with. I saw both temples. They told me there that "You should see this temple, very lovable Deities." And I went in. Actually the Deities are very beautiful and very well kept. Just like in Mādhava Mahārāja's mandira , underneath the siṁhāsana they didn't wash. Only in front. But this man, everything was neat and clean. It looked like a thriving, more or less, a thriving place. So difficulty is that if we take charge, we may give it for worshiping to one disciple, but the Immigration Department will gag him. That is the difficulty. And we don't have many Indian disciples. Otherwise, we can take all these important places. Also, last when I was in Calcutta and I saw Tarun Kanti Ghosh, then he mentioned to me again that the people from Pānihāṭi, this time that they had reached a decision that they wanted to give us the sevā of the Rāghava Paṇḍita's house. So we take. Let us take it. That's a very important . . . but that's in dilapidated state. We shall repair. In the letter of the Home Minister where he said that every disciple can stay for two years, possibly if he allowed that in every center, if a minimum of a few people could stay for citizenship, then that might . . . Yes. Ordinary, by rotation, and three, two or three or four permanent, by citizen, if he allowed to stay . . . Yes. . . . then that would solve the problem. Yes. That make. Not too many. Not too many. Say at least five. They will manage. Four or five. All others on rotation. Then they will manage. And if they allow two years, that's all right. One devotee comes, another goes, another . . . that will be done. Because some that are acclimatized, it is difficult for training up. A few people are better to stay there that are trained up on that basis. I think with Mr. Patnaik and others that . . . because he also wants that Orissan development . . . they can understand that it is important to have one or two people that are known people stay there. If every two years a change is, that is disadvantage. *No, our Gaura*-Govinda, I think he is doing there nice. He's doing nice in Bhubaneswar. Yes. He has already few cottages? Of course, I didn't see myself. I heard he has got a few cottages, three, four cottages. So our Gargamuni has seen? *Yes, I think Gargamuni has seen. Gargamuni is giving him some help. He printed one Orissan book, and he gives him sometimes some books and help. He is fixed up, that Gaura*-Govinda. He's fixed up. That's nice. Let him translate in Orissa and, if possible, in Hindi. And give him few devotees. Then he'll be encouraged. *I think he has got two or three devotees now. This man himself is a pretty capable worker. He's similar like Prabhu Swarupa, only a little older, little more mature. He's about forty*-five or so. He's been able to collect about, what I can see, about fifty thousand rupees for one nātha-mandira. So he is al . . . and he has a couple thousand people. I heard from the Gauḍīya Maṭha. They say they have big utsavas there. Every year two, three thousand people come. Yes. So he's a capable . . . Manager. . . . manager in his own right. He wanted to meet you. So let us cooperate with him. You take it. And he is there. In the meantime, our men may be trained up. He's invited us to come. He has some festival coming. Then we can just go . . . Yes. That . . . . . . and keep a good relationship. Oh, yes. The main one is in December. Our difficulty is this immigration. If we can manage this, then all such places we can take. There is no question. The only thing is that government is gagging. One has to go, and it means ten thousand rupees unnecessarily. If that ten thousand rupees was invested in developing that center, much improvement could be done. But they are gagging. They are dreaming, "CIA." When I go back, I'll see this Raghava Pandit, because there the MLA, he himself wants it because that's a very important place and it's going bad. So that MLA can help us to get some citizenship. With MLA and with Tarun Kanti Ghosh . . . Yes. . . . we can use them for pushing, because they are personally interested. Yes. They'll be able to help. *You can bring so many men and keep everyone in charge of such places, and it will develop. Money, there is no scarcity. But the difficulty is as soon as we establish, the Immigration, "You go away." This is . . . what is this? You say the MLA and this Tarun Kanti, "This is our difficulty. Otherwise there is no difficulty. We can take all the charge and develop them very nicely." So if one man is kept in charge, and after few months he's advised, "Go away," then all his training goes to hell and we have to spend another ten thousand rupees. This is the difficulty. What . . . we are not . . . not a single case there is that we have taken any part in politics. So give us some facility. We can take charge of everything. Tell them that actually that is fact, that there is no scarcity of money. We can bring money from America and develop. There is no difficulty at all. The difficulty is the Immigration Department. You can say that "Prabhupāda has put this philosophy, andha . . ." What is that? Paṅgu. Andha*-paṅgu-nyāya. Blind and . . . depends on this . . . blind and . . . I think you have already know. Blind man, lame man. One man is blind, another man is lame. Both of them are useless. But when they combine, the blind man takes the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man gives direction to the blind man, "Go this way. Go this way." So he walks. So both of them are benefited. So America has got money, but blind. And India has got culture, but lame. So let us combine. Then things will be done very nice. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya . Just like I am the same man. I was finding difficulty to start this mission in India, very, very difficult. With great hardship I published three books. But as soon as I went America, the andha-paṅgu-nyāya became successful. So this is the position. *So instead of becoming envious from political . . . we have nothing to do with . . . to the Americans unnecessarily thinking they are CIA. CIA . . . let American money and India's culture combine together, and the whole world will be benefited. America has got enough money, they can spend. Either they give me as the price of my book or anything, money is there like anything. India has got culture. So Indian culture, Vedic culture, Bhagavad*-gītā culture, pushed through American money, the whole world will be benefited. Convince these things. It is not the question of "India," "America," here . . . it is a cultural movement for the benefit of the whole world. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). It is cultural movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is aiming pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi. So "Tarun Babu, you are such a devotee of Caitanya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants it. Pṛthivīte āche yata . . . why don't you help us? Your family is devotee of Lord Caitanya, and this is spreading Caitanya's mission. You should give up everything and join this movement, if you are actually a devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And Prabhupāda says that he knows at your heart you want that Caitanya's movement is spread all over the world, so far he has studied you. So let us join together. Why we should unnecessarily be biased, 'American' and 'Indian' and . . . let us join together and spread Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement all over the . . . they'll be happy. Everyone will be happy. It is such a nice . . . India will be glorified. America will be glorified." If we . . . you came here. You have got so much strength. If you work continually, the whole world will be . . . so those who are offering, take. Take those places. Let us begin. If anyone wants some property, we should take immediately. You said there is already building cost fifty thousand? So that's a property. So if they are offering, you take it and develop. These are historical places. Haridaspur is also historical, I think. Hmm? Yes. Vena? Venapur is nearby. Two miles. Two miles. Two or three miles. No, that's been . . . Haridaspur, since time of Lord Caitanya, for many, many years, four hundred . . . right from the time of Lord Caitanya they are calling that. They say there's no doubt that Haridāsa Ṭhākura came that way. That must be. It is two, three miles. If he was a person belonging to Venapur, so two, three miles surrounding he must have gone. There is no doubt. And if you can establish good relationship with Pakistan, Bangladesh, then our whole question is solved. Go there, seek some preaching and come here, and all these motorcar problems . . . I don't want to sell them, you know . . . No, it is a very . . . . . . because we took great hardship to bring them. Oh, yes. Why we should sell them? They are so useful. Yes. They have done so much work already. *It is . . . nowadays motor vehicle is important item for anyone. We have spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness so quickly on account of the modern transport facilities, so we must take it as favorable. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). Anukūla , favorable. Favorable, favorable. It is not we have got . . . (indistinct) . . . with material. That is not Rūpa Gosvāmī's . . . prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi . . . this cars can be used for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why it should be condemned? That is not intelligence. Rūpa Gosvāmī condemns it. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256). Things which is in the service of the Lord, if we think it is material, that is not vairāgya . That is not renouncement. That is foolishness. (break) When I was traveling in Burdwan, there we saw the big palace of Mahārāja of Burdwan. Yes. *Gigantic. He has given that to the university. Then we did a kīrtana at his . . . he has one temple of Rādhā*-kānta. There's . . . present ācārya is about a twenty-two-year-old boy. He's in the sampradāya of Nimbārka Svāmī. So he doesn't know anything about . . . very much about spiritual life, although he is following the tradition. That's such a vast . . . that building is vast. I can't explain to you how big that is. It makes our . . . it's at least five times bigger than our building in all ways, and . . . Eh? Than our building, five times bigger, I think, in length and . . . it is a huge compound. He has got much land in the name of the Deity. So he's becoming a member because he wants to read your books to understand about Lord Caitanya and spiritual . . . Now for making member you should be very clear so that no misunderstanding can take place. Books, we shall give five books. Yes, that . . . Yes. On my form I have already printed we give five books. "When you finish, you return this; you take another. When you finish that . . ." In this way. Well, we've been doing with members in Calcutta, members who want more of the books, they sign the standing order and they pay us for the books. That is another thing. Every month. One book a month and they pay. That's all right. And they sign the standing order. That's nice. So we have taken many personal standing orders. Yes. *We have one boy, Santoṣa. He goes door to door, meeting Bengali men, and they are signing standing orders and taking Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. He has already done four standing orders in about ten days' time. Bengalis? Bengalis? Yes, only to Bengalis. Because it's in their language . . . Yes. They can read. No, it is in English. Anyone can. Yes, but Bengalis, they can appreciate more Caitanya Mahāprabhu. I tell the members that, "You can't get any Bhāgavatams ," because there's too many. No, no. Why not? If he reads, give him. And it is very easy. Suppose I give you five books. You become member. So you read it and take another five books. This five books I can give to another. In this way we can manage. There is no misunderstanding. We give you book for reading, not for selling. Not that, "I have given money. Now so many books, let me sell it and get return as many, as much money as possible." Bāniyā tendency is like that. Because they're paying 2,222 rupees. If they only give them five books on exchange, I don't think now they'll be satisfied. What for he's taking? They're satisfied. No, no. Now we're giving them the books. No, no. We told them, "You can't have any books." What is the cause of dissatisfaction? You take the books for reading, so you finish this and again we give five books. We take back this and give you in exchange. So actually we give them five books for good. That we are prepared. Five books at fifty rupees each, that one or 250. But they're giving two thousand rupees. That's all right. That's for membership. That isn't just for books. Sometimes they stay in our mandiras . Yes. We pay for their prasāda . And three days free boarding and lodging. In this way things should be clear so that in future they may not complain, "Ah, we . . ." as they are doing. Somebody is coming, "Oh, we have given 1100 rupees to live here forever." Some ladies came like that. Yes, I know. I met that lady. Yes, they take it, advantage, "Oh, we shall get all books, we shall live forever. There is no charge, pay." That misunderstanding should be . . . So now we say they can live forever, but as we live. Yes, that's all right. That . . . that you can do. Not that they will get special privilege of . . . as hotel. They must live like us. But they want free hotel. That is . . . they want free. Sometimes old man who has got some money . . . No, old . . . old man is different. He wants to live, and he is too weak to do anything. That's all right. He wants to chant and give some money. Let him purchase one room. Let him live . . . for life he can live, and we give him prasādam free. Purchase one room. Eight, ten thousand rupees. No, fifty thousand, I think. In Vṛndāvana we are selling sixty thousand. Sixty thousand. No, but those rooms have attached bath. In our room there is no attached bath. No, I mean to say in Vṛndāvana, that's all right. Or anywhere. Whatever money is fixed up, let him pay, live in his room comfortably, and we give him free prasādam . There is no harm. But he must attend the ārati , and rules and regulations. There is no . . . No tea, nor . . . all the rules he should follow. Yes. Attend the program. Even if old men cannot follow, still, he should be given. What about tea? Tea, tea can . . . then he'll caught. That is not. Because the old men, they are addicted to the tea. No, what . . . many old men, they can give it up. We will promise them cow's milk. That's nice. Pure cow's milk. That "Instead of this tea, you take milk." Little milk, that is beneficial. So membership should be clearly defined, so that they may not misunderstand. But we're not having trouble now. That's all right. Because we printed a new form. And generally, when members come they always donate more, so we give them one book. Yes. They always . . . I visited one hundred members, and all of those old members, they gave another one thousand. Just see. Yes, they will give. I know. They'll give if you treat them nicely. Oh, yes. And I gave them one book, and they're satisfied. Any person who has money, they'll receive. So many places they are offering us land . . . There's another man who wants to give a big property. When you come to Calcutta he wants to see you. In Calcutta? No, it's in Rajasthan. Oh. It's a palace which he's not using. And he met you in Bombay. He also visited our centers in Paris and New York. He's a Marwari man, very rich, very nice. He's also donated good sums to the Society. So now he wants to meet you, and he wants someone to go there. So I told him we will go and look at it. Where? It's in Rajasthan. Rajasthan? Where? Which side. It's near Bikaner. It's with agricultural land and a big house. They said they spent about fifteen lacks on it, marble house. The family is not using it. They have no use. We're getting a lot of offers. Yes. But because of Māyāpur, I have not taken them very seriously, because we already have huge affair in Māyāpur. But if you like, we can see. No, kāca dhun kāca kaphe : "If some property is offered, we should take it." That is the . . . and washed cloth, jācā dhun kācā kapha . If somebody offers you very nicely washed cloth, you should use it. And some property, you must use it. They are . . . you can utilize this property by inhabiting the persons, if they are inclined to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are rotting outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They may come to live. We are for everyone. So he . . . where does he reside, this gentleman? In Calcutta. His businesses are there. He's a wealthy man, very nice man. Where does he live? He's lives in Bara Bazar. His name is Mr. Buwalka. Bara Bazar Marwaris are all businessmen. Yes. *This is combination of rich men, poor men, for Kṛṣṇa. The same— andha*-paṅgu-nyāya . Both of them are useless separately, and when they combine in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are all useful. It is very good example. And there is another example, that a piece of wire is falling, rotting, and a piece of bamboo, rotting, and a piece of squash skin is rotting. And one gentleman collected. He nicely trimmed the piece and dried the squash, the outer portion, and took the bamboo and nicely cut it and joined the string, and this became a sitar: ting, ting, ting . So it is the intelligent person who joins all these things and makes it very useful. These are the examples. The bamboo alone is useless, and a small piece of wire, useless, and a thrown-out squash skin, useless. But if you can join them together, you can " ting, ting ." Similarly, andha-paṅgu-nyāya . Here is a lame man, here is a blind man. All right, combine together and use them. That is wanted. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhi labhate . This wire does not change. It is wire, it remains wire. But when it is combined, it is useful. So our propaganda is, "They are separately planning useless. Let them combine together in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All this planning shall be successful. We were all useless in the West, but you have come and then engaged us. *It is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Nobody is useless. I was also useless. I could not do in India alone anything. This is . . . again the same example: (laughs) two useless makes useful. Intelligence alone cannot work. Money is required. One man was challenged, "You have no intelligence." So he said, "Yes." He was searching these . . . "No, why you are searching here?" "No, here is intelligence. If here is money, then my intelligence can work. Otherwise what is the use of intelligence?" But he was searching here, "Whether I have got intelligence?" Simply intelligence . . . in industry also: land, labor, capital, organization—four things needed. Simple capital will not do. Simple organization will not do. A man may have very good brain power, organization, but if he has no money—useless. So four things required: land, labor, capital, organization. That minister in Raṅganātha, he is inclined to spend huge income of Tirupati, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But he is bound up by other colleagues. They are applying the money. So he's willing to call all the ministers if I can convince them. I shall try it. Just . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, yajñārthe karma . Everyone is karmī . So the karmīs , the village cultivators or big men industrialists, they are going to Tirupati. Whatever then can spare, they are offering. That is yajñārthe . If this money is taken and again if it is brought into karmī , then it is misleading. Karmīs are giving them. Just like people are giving us money. They are karmīs . But because they are giving us and we are engaging the money in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so the money is fully utilized. But if this money again taken and again to the karmīs . . . Without any spiritual work. Then it is a farce. His purpose is served, but one who is misleading the . . . he becomes criminal. The man who gives, his purpose is served. His purpose is served. The man who takes the money is . . . *He is to be punished. His misusing. Suppose in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement somebody gives us money. He is giving good faith that "It is very good organization." But if I misspend that money, then I am responsible. Then I'll be punished. His business is finished. Kṛṣṇa noted that he has given his hard*-earned money for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If I take that money . . . instead of doing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if I use it for my sense gratification, then I'll be . . . then I'll be responsible. What is the use of Kṛṣṇa's money being used for industry? Any purpose outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . let this money be utilized for spreading the glories of Kṛṣṇa. But they do not recognize Kṛṣṇa. All the so-called Bhagavad-gītā readers, they want to kill Kṛṣṇa. Yes, that's a fact. The Calcutta plan that you had, it is still under consideration. At first the Calcutta corporation refused, but then Abhirāma saw the Minister of Municipal Affairs, Mr. Subrata Mukerjee. So I gave the meaning. He said: "No, I want this." But there's still a problem, is that they'll allow a monument, but they don't want the Deity. They'll allow us to build a monument for Bhaktivedanta Swami but no Deity. Well, then take this proposal, "All right, no Deity." We shall hold meetings, lecture. What is that? In the park people come. And we decorate the whole hall with pictures. Gradually we worship one picture. Later on, maybe we can put Deity. Once it's built, they cannot tell us to get out. That's what Mr. Choudhuri said. Yes. He said, "You can take, and once a week you bring Deity and put, and other time you just do kīrtana ." Yes, yes. One week, it stays one week. Then it stays one month . . . We can take the Deity for a walk around the park, and then into the hall for two hours . . . For some time, two hours. And then take out. Yes, then do that. And we are inviting everyone. We have no distinction. Anyone can come to the park. Convince them. (break) "Come on! Take prasādam sumptuously." They'll be satisfied. They are hungry. Actually they are hungry, poorly paid, capitalist and worker. The trouble is, capitalists, they are taking all the profit, and they are enjoying life in wine and women. Naturally the worker will see that, "Why? We are working so hard, and they are making profit, and they are enjoying, and we do not live in a very nice house; it is a slum." Naturally they will be envious. If the capitalists spend the money for Kṛṣṇa consciousness—in each and every factory they hold festivals and give them eatables like anything—everything will be successful. We tell them that "If you give your Kṛṣṇa tax, this will save you from the income tax." Yes. "Because they are raiding . . ." Yes. ". . . because you are hoarding. But if you give . . ." The industrialists . . . that is also one of our programs. Let them hold festivals every Sunday, as we hold. And we shall go and have kīrtana and sumptuous feeding give. They'll be very satisfied. And instead of giving the income tax, let them spend in this way. Convince them. At the factories. Weekly foodstuffs. They feed all the workers. We'll prepare the prasāda , offer to the Deity and feed to all the workers. They'll be satisfied. Presently the building they're in now is unbearable, as far as living Why? Well, it is old building. Water supply is very bad. So you cannot . . . It is a rotten building. Rotten cannot be repaired? No. And the landlord won't allow him here. Why? Because he wants us to get us out . . . That's all right, but he . . . But he won't allow any repair. You have to have his permission to get repair. If you don't get landlord's permission, then you cannot repair. You're forced to live in a slum. No, no, you require permission of the landlord if he pays. No, no. Even if he doesn't. Any construction . . . No, I don't think that is the law. What is the law? I am feeling inconvenience, I cannot repair? No. No, how that can be? You can tell the police. No, then you have to go to the court, and that takes ten years. Just like he's in the court for five years now. He is not taking our rent. Then let us repair. Let him go to the court. Because by repairing, we have broken the law, so let him go to the court. (laughter) The same logic. Actually, Abhirāma . . . also, the facility for living there is only good for five or six persons. Otherwise it is not good. So they want to get a building. So what happened to the corner house? What happened to the corner house? No, that is still there. Then why don't you purchase it? Which corner one? The one right across? Yes. Left corner. No, but that's even worse condition than what we have. No, no, we break it and prepare nice temple. He went to see that man. That man, he doesn't want to sell. What was the . . . He's one of these Marwaris who is very miser. He himself lives in a slum. But right now Abhirāma hasn't found another place. I just talked to him. Let me talk . . . He told me ten minutes ago . . . (indistinct) So they are thinking they want to get . . . And one thing is that next thing will be . . . now there are many flats. Now, we have one flat that we are renting. Not renting. Purchase. Well, the only thing is with these flats in Calcutta, they are so mismanaged, these new places. They become a slum in two months. In Bombay the flats are managed nicely, but in Calcutta when they build a new one, within two months the whole thing is filthy dirty, the elevators don't work. It's not worth purchasing a flat. I have one now. I am renting. It's on the twelfth floor, and the members of our traveling party stay there, you see. There is nice water and so many things. But the building is so mismanaged. Who wants to stay there more than a year? We need our own place. Then we can keep it clean and nice. Where is that own place? Well, there are buildings that we can get. In Ballygunge we have some offers. That's if this park doesn't come through. If the park does not come through, then we can . . . Yes. First of all try to make . . . this is the best place in Calcutta. I personally went with Abhirāma to see the minister, and the minister didn't give any stipulation. He was only for the project. His only reservation was that, he said first of all, politically, he doesn't know about our Society. If the government Home Department says that it's all right . . . as far as the program is, the program, the plan that was given, he totally accepts it as it is. That's when I saw him. Since then, Abhirāma has not seen him. But the people in the corporation, they have refused it without his sanction, and they have written him that the minister said he does not want it. When we took that—we showed it to the minister—he said: "This is completely wrong." He said: "No, no, no! There is some misunderstanding." Then he said, "You write me a letter that there is some misunderstanding, and I will take care of this matter." So he wrote the letter, and now they forward that letter back to the Calcutta corporation without a letter from the minister. Because he went back there. He just told me that. So it's back again to the same guys who, you know . . . of course, I don't know what letter he has written, but the officers would not tell us anything. Anyway, we will try our best. Why not take the Victoria Memorial? What is, they are doing? I have never gone inside. I heard it is simply old English armor and some swords. Yes, I have seen. And the marble is turning black. Because they don't . . . They don't clean. How they can afford to maintain such a building? Kṛṣṇa will maintain. Oh, we can. We can utilize it properly. And we'll have British pūjārīs . For the glory of Queen Victoria. Victoria. Let them send. Tell them that we shall bring. Victoria has . . . let them send to worship Victoria with prasādam of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is real Victoria Memorial. That is putra . (loud kīrtana in the background throughout) *Yes, great*-grandson. Putra is great . . . the putra was that Edward Seventh. No, but to lift from hell. When she gets prasādam . *Ah, yes. Puṁ*-nārakāt trāyate iti putra . Victoria died in 1903. There was great function, and this building started in 1903, and it was finished in 1922. After her death. Yes. Lord Curzon's plan . . . Lord Curzon wanted that let there be a king of India from the family of Victoria. He gave this plan. But this Parliament did not want that Englishman shall make India home. Then his interest will be in India. Just like America. Englishmen, as they made America their home, they declared independence. Australia. As soon as you make a home, then the more interest will be in India. Washington was Englishman. Was he not? Washington? Yes. Well, everyone came from England. Yes. Not from England many. But ordinary . . . so Englishman, why he declared war against the English? Their interest was in America more than England. Yes. Naturally. So as soon as you make home, your interest will be at home. So that was their policy. In those days no Englishman was allowed to purchase property in India. All his income, money, should go to England. So the Muhammadan Moguls, they made their home in India. Therefore they stayed for eight hundred years. They would not have gone. Indians did not like to finish the Muhammadan kingdom. No, never. It is the Englishmen. They penetrated and finished them, not the Indians. Indians were not against the Muhammadans. They are going on. Little bit discrepancies were there, especially during the time of Aurangzeb. He was bigot Muhammadan. He hated the Hindus. Not hated, but he was a . . . was is called, bigot, Muhammadan? He did not hate. That was not his qualification. Aurangzeb gave many contributions to the Vṛndāvana temples. Yes. And Aurangzeb's grandfather, Jahangir, he gave many temples to many brāhmins . There is one village just opposite Vṛndāvana, Keśīghāṭa: Jahangipura. This village was given to a brāhmin . From the income he was maintaining a temple. And Aurangzeb . . . you know Sringarpat Goswami? (entering room) Śrīla Prabhupāda, Shankar Kumar has brought the food and all these things to his place. So if you'd like to go afterwards or take here, or what would you like? No, no, let them take. Pradyumna thought that you wanted to take with them. So I can take, but you'll take . . . They'll have their food, and you will also have . . . No, what is that? Let them take here in the temple. In the temple? Yes. Because I will have to take at least one hour. How they will wait? Better they take separately. So Indians did not like that Muhammadans may go away. Rather, when Shri Rajdullah was arrested by flight, the Bengali zamindars , they protested. Rani Bhavani, she protested, although it is alleged that Shri Rajdullah kidnapped her daughter. But if Shri Rajdullah kidnapped her daughter, how he (she) supported Shri Rajdullah? There are so many falsehoods. On the whole, the Indians never planned to drive away the Muhammadans. They never. That's a fact. They were happy because there was no exploitation. All these Muhammadans, they made their home in India, so whatever lavishly they were spending, that was coming to the Indians. In Tollygunge there is a man—now they are aristocratic family—he was servant of the nawab , and he stolen one shoes, one feet, which was bedecked with jewels. So by selling that jewel he became a rich man. So although they were using jeweled shoes, but it was in India. They were satisfied that, "I am nawab . I am using jeweled shoes." But the jeweled shoes was in India, and these Englishmen, they have taken away all the jewels even from the walls, and keeping them in their homes—all gold, jewels, everything. Yeah. That's a fact that in those old houses, the Marwaris, they have inherited all of these pieces. Now they have it all. In the old British houses many Marwaris have taken over, and they have inherited all of the treasures of the British. Oh. Many antiques. Yes. Anyway, if I take away something from you in this room and I keep it somewhere in this room, then where is the difference either with you or with me? That was going on during Muhammadans' ruling. But these people, they took away from the room. Exploitation. *So India became poverty*-stricken. One more thing is that locally, that bank that opened there . . . They are . . . they are crazy fellows. That bank is worthless. They don't know anything about banking. They are farmers. Forget it. If bank like Central Bank or United, that bank . . . they are useless, and they are asking ten lakhs of rupees deposit. Five lakhs . They will give interest. They'd like a fixed amount . . . So who believes them? No, but I don't trust that bank because they already tried . . . they kept fifty thousand rupees. It took us two weeks to get that. They didn't have my signature. It doesn't matter, though. It's still . . . No bank would have given. Without signature no . . . Still, they're not a good bank. They have three . . . They are not . . . it is a small cultivator's cooperative. I wouldn't trust a small bank. At any time they can lose. They only have three or four branches. They're backed by the Reserve Bank. It doesn't matter. What do you mean, it doesn't matter? No big bank . . . (indistinct) . . . what big bank? Then who is going to deposit five lakhs of rupees with them? That is not possible. Yes, that's all right, but as far as the bank goes . . . That's all right. We can go on without the business. We cannot deposit. If any banker goes there, they'll want a deposit. But if a big bank . . . Yes. But why should we deposit five lakhs of rupees? The money value is decreasing daily. We get credit. If you deposit five lakhs now, it will decrease value in five, ten months. The purchasing power of money is decreasing. Now what you can purchase with five lakhs of rupees, after five years you'll require ten lakhs . So your money will decrease. And if you invest that money in land, after five years it will increase to its full extent. So why should we waste our money? What is the benefit? The farmers don't keep their money in the banks. The government is trying to force the farmers to keep their money in the bank. The farmers don't want to do it. Farmers' policy is if they have got money, they purchase land. Therefore they are making ceiling. The whole policy is not so good. Farmers, as soon as they get some money, they want to invest the land, but the ceiling . . . so they cannot invest money in the land, they give to the bank. And as soon as you keep money in the bank it will decrease the value. This is . . . That's a fact. Money is decreased, value of, all over the world. Because it is not money actually; it is paper, cheating. Real money is gold, they will not allow to keep this gold. The whole policy is vicious. If I purchase gold with five lakhs of rupees, then it is real money, and after five years I can sell it seven lakhs . That they will not allow. Therefore I . . . my policy is that whatever money is there, spend. Don't keep. In land, and produce food. That is the best use of. All buildings, government, there is no need of. And instead of keeping money and take interest, you print books. That is also good. You can sell. Or you purchase land for producing food. If we stock money, then there'll be no preaching. But if we print books, then we have to sell the books. So that is preaching. Therefore I am insisting all over, "Print any book." Never mind either Hindi or English or any . . . print book and keep it in stock, nicely. And gradually we will sell. Then we will preach. Otherwise, if we put it in . . . That is the purpose of my Bhaktivedanta Trust. Fifty percent must be spent for printing and fifty percent for building. That's all. No money. Don't keep any account. Then the government will never get envious, because there's nothing there. Yes. And we haven't got to keep so many accountant, auditors, and other nonsense, unnecessary expenditure. As soon as there is collection, invest the money in some building or in making some book, book printing. Follow this policy. I am very much eager. I have got money here and there, but I want to spend it in this way. So therefore I am advising take this. We shall invest renovating them and in developing them. Spend money. Don't keep it. Yes. So I'll tell them our policy is changed. We don't keep any more money in fixed deposit because it's a losing bargain? That's it. Actually it is losing. Actually it is losing. Every day the price . . . just like the price of rice has increased. It is up and down. *Up and down, now . . . take it. When it goes up it does not come down, generally. So this is practical example. Two months ago you were purchasing two rupees—now two*-eighty. So where is the value of the money? If we invest in books . . . just like this little pamphlet I printed. It cost me fifty paisa . If we sell it in one month . . . Yes. . . . then we will get fifty paisa profit. We will make double our investment. That was nicely . . . that was nicely printed. So in this way invest in books or land. We don't want to keep cash. And if they want to keep branch or not, that is up to them. We can't give them any money. If they want to keep branch or not, that's up to them. That should be up to them. If they keep branch we can take that. They'll go on. We will tell them frankly that for us to invest in books is more profitable, because after one month we get more. We cannot keep money, and without any . . . they will give interest. What is that interest? And he said we have printed fifty paisa and selling hundred paisa . So that much interest they cannot give. They'll give, utmost, ten percent. Ten percent per annum—not even one percent in a month. Your books will be our bank. Yes. We have got business. Why shall I keep in the bank? This is the policy. If your money is idle, we can spend it in our books, in our purchasing land, in temple, constructing temple, developing . . . so where you got that water? Water's there? Don't touch that water. No, there's one bucket of mixed with half a bucket of hot water. Yesterday what happened, the tank, some blockage there was . . . (end) Conversation A -- August 19, 1976, Hyderabad (Conversation About Mayapura Construction) . . . to keep it going we took a minimum amount of ten thousand a month. We were getting ten thousand a month. But to finish the building we require more, more per month, because ten thousand is just the most minimum amount just to keep it going. So you are collecting? Yes, but that is going for maintenance. I give twenty thousand a month now. Maintenance, twenty thousand? Well, that includes agriculture, the gurukula —everything. It includes everything. Actual maintenance, about eight or ten thousand. Other things, landscaping and other things . . . Landscaping . . . we built you a very wonderful park, very nice park. We've also put a walkway around the ghāṭa with stairs. Now, what is the position of our big project? That's what I was going to tell you first. So what happened was that the application we had given to the Chief Secretary and the Board of Revenue, that had gone from them to Mr. Choudhuri, who in turn had sent it on to the Commissioner. The Commissioner sent to District Magistrate. The Commissioner sent to the District Magistrate. So District Magistrate, he gave a favorable reply. He has given? Favorable reply. He said that, "This is a good project. It will help the district." He only said that they should maybe get 300 acres instead of 350, or like that. He reduced something. Then it went back again to the Commissioner, who was a Christian. He's the one I mentioned. He wrote bad report. Then when Choudhuri got it, he wrote a very good report. He wrote a very good report. He said that there's no question of Hindu or Muslim. Just like in Bangkok they have that one big Viṣṇu Temple. That is a . . . or the Taj Mahal. This is no longer any type of religious . . . this is for all mankind. Similarly, this Māyāpur will be a monument for the whole mankind. For the whole world. For the whole world. So in this way he gave a very good, very good statement. Then that went to the Chief Secretary again, who had to give it to the Chief Minister. So the Chief Minister, he does not have a good opinion. He did not have a good opinion of our Society. Who is the Chief Minister? Siddhanta Shankaraya. He is very expert man. *He's a very expert . . . he's one of their chief politicians from India. He used to be Education Minister of Indira Gandhi. He's one of her right*-hand men. Very important for Bengal. Bengal is the most important state, and he has very prominent position to the Prime Minister as advisor. So at that time, I couldn't write him a letter. He had written that . . . something which made Mr. Choudhuri very angry. He wrote something which made Mr. Choudhuri very angry. Made also the Chief Secretary angry. He wrote . . . No, who wrote? The Chief Minister wrote. He said, "Because of the impassioned . . ." He said: "I would have refused this application except for the impassioned appeal of one of my senior officers, namely Mr. Choudhuri. They are asking for three hundred acres of land, but the East India Company, they asked only twenty acres of land, and they have conquered the whole of India." (loud kīrtana in background) Eh? "East India Company, they have asked only twenty acres of land, but they have conquered the whole of India." "They ruled India for two hundred years." Oh. "Ruled India for two hundred years." Who said? Chief Minister? The Chief Minister wrote that the East India Company purchased twenty acres of land and ruled India for two hundred years. That was his reply to our application. Chief Minister said? Yes. They're afraid that by taking this, we will rule India. Anyway, that's a very frivolous statement. That was a frivolous statement. No, that, ruling over India, they politically ruled. But we're not politicians. Even if we are rule, we shall rule spiritually. We have nothing to do with politics. That's the point. That's why even the Chief Secretary, he became . . . They didn't take it seriously. The Chief Secretary and Mr. Choudhuri did not take that very seriously, that comment. It didn't end there. It's a frivolous comment. It's progressed. That's one month ago. Since then it's progressed. Then he said, "Let there be more inquiry on the nature of the Society and its source of funds, etc . . ." In the meantime, many people had come and inquired about our Society—CID, CI . . . Also the industrial . . . one industrial from the . . . they want to know how we will arrange for so many work for so many people. I met them there. They want to know, "How will you get everyone to work?" They sent . . . many, from many different governmental departments, came, inquiring, "How you will do this?" And they all went away satisfied. We showed them the handloom; we showed them the gośālā , we showed them the children. Even Tarun Kanti Ghosh, he came, and we lined up fifty children, and they read the Gītār Gān , and he almost started crying. He liked it so much. He said: "Oh, you have done so nicely with the children." So they were impressed with the work. So at that time Mr. Choudhuri, he was put down. But he said: "I have not yet lost hope." He said, but he was put down a bit. That night personally talked to the Minister of Nadia, Anandamoy Visvas, who I personally met last year. And he was telling him that for Nadia he should sponsor this. Even the negative political issue with the Chief Minister, he should push it through. In the meantime, I wrote an application to Tarun Kanti Ghosh, who up to now we hadn't asked. Because it had already passed all the preliminaries. And I went and spoke to him. I told him that, "It has already passed all the government stages. Now simply the Chief Minister has to be convinced." He said: "No, no. You are of good integrity. There is no doubt about ISKCON. I will immediately tell him." He called up the Chief Secretary. The Chief Minister was out then. Later on he talked to Chief Minister. The next time I saw Mr. Choudhuri . . . before that, he told me . . . that's when he told me that, "Maybe Prabhupāda should see the Chief Minister." Now he said it's not necessary. He liked your reply to them. After that, I saw Mr. Tarun Kanti Ghosh. Then I saw Choudhuri again a week later. At that time he said: "Now everything is changed." He said: "Now the Chief Minister, that problem is solved." He has written that, "Let Mr. Choudhuri take the decision. Let him take the decision. But I cannot simply take the decision. They'll say I am biased. I must work in the ordinary ways of the government. But there is no trouble now. You have waited so long. You wait another thirty or sixty days." He said: "Wait another sixty days, and then you'll get it." When he wrote? When he wrote this? He spoke to me just two weeks ago. Two weeks ago. Then, last week, again I saw him just before Janmāṣṭamī. I asked him . . . then I gave him invitation to Janmāṣṭamī. At that time he told me that . . . after was this bad publicity. He told me, "Now this bad publicity, I think it has given us some benefit." Śrīla Prabhupāda, could you give darśana over here later? They've all been waiting for your darśana . Hey, wait a minute. We're talking about Māyāpur. We're talking about Māyāpur. (indistinct conversation) Is there . . .? Is there necessity? There's no necessary. Okay. But we had you down on schedule for a lecture. So I said that you're not lecturing, but they just wanted to have a look at you. Later we can have . . . Tomorrow I shall. Tomorrow. Okay. Tomorrow I shall lecture. Go ahead. *Now, just a few days ago, when I invited him for Janmāṣṭamī, then I asked him what the . . . he told me at that time, he said: "Now . . ." He had recently received a phone call from the Chief Secretary. "You see? Now your favorite project is going to be spoiled." Then he went over to see the Chief Secretary. He showed him an article from the Rāja*-Sabhā , how the member of Parliament had given this challenge that, "Are these people CIA or this or that?" Then Mr. Choudhuri said: "Sir, I am not afraid." He said: "Why not?" "Because I have you, don't I?" Then the Chief said: "Yes. You have won me over. I believe in this project." Then he said that now the Chief Minister has agreed that the project be sanctioned. But he said that, "I don't want to take the full brunt of the decision. Let the Nadia District Planning Committee take the decision." Nadia? District Planning Committee. So the head of the Nadia District Planning Committee is that minister, Anandamoy Visvas. So I went to him, and I gave him an invitation for the Janmāṣṭamī. When I saw him, then . . . you gave me that letter. So I showed him that letter where you have said that, "Every day we're selling sixty thousand dollars' of books, and I thank you for helping me." I said: "Sir, we are simply doing Prabhupāda's order. This is not our work. It is not a foreign work. It is his work; we are simply doing it. He is selling so many books that he wants to invest some of the money to develop Mahāprabhu's birth site. That is all. He has got the money. Why he should not invest it?" He said: "I am going to have a meeting of the committee next week, and I'm going to push your project through. We're going to pass it." That is the last word I heard. So it looks that everything is very good right now . . . but we have to keep our Society very pure, because they're investigating us very strong. All the time they're having people watching us. There is now in Māyāpur . . . the talk is, there's some special advisors to the Prime Minister are in Māyāpur now investigating to make sure. *Some of the local people that were working with me, getting petitions, they came and told me that some people from Delhi or outside were inquiring about us, about Bhavānanda Goswami, about Jayapatākā, about this project, about how the devotees are dealing with the public, whether we are doing any anti*-Indian work. All sorts of questions they are asking. So it's very important that we keep very up-and-up right now. All the time. But otherwise the government, they are happy with our work. And so far, Mr. Choudhuri said, other people have indicated that they have found no bad report about our Society, although they are looking so hard. Therefore they are passing. The State government is very favorable. But the doubt, of course, is coming from the central government because they don't know us. But the state government, they are very favorable. Everyone we've met within the State, they like us very much. They like the Society, they like your work, and, of course, they like your books. The local police intelligence officer in Krishnagar, when I went to see him, he told me, Ami tomake bharatiya nagarik kore dicchi. Ami kore dicchi. (I am making you an Indian citizen. I am making you.) Like that, he told me. "Definitely I make you an Indian citizen." So they are favorable. I don't know how much they can do, but locally they are favorable. Now on the weekend we have tours of the building. Many groups of people come. Fifty in a group sometimes, to come and visit. Tourists. Yes, tourists, and we take them on tour of the building. That's Subhaga. He takes them on tour and he gives some preaching. So many people are coming. Subhaga is in charge of that? Yes, he does. Others are there also. One new boy is very good. He's . . . Kiśora. Kiśora dāsa. He's also translating. He's a little more strong than Subhaga, although new. Very good boy, very humble. He's from a good family also. What is the flood situation? Flood situation . . . Very mild monsoon this year. Almost drought. Almost. Very mild. Very little rain. Rain is not very strong. No. The monsoon is not strong. Our aus (a type of rice) crop has been hampered because of lack of rain and early monsoon. Only in the past week there's been a little rain. Otherwise, before, there was very little rain. Not fully drought . . . But less rain than previous years. Everything is very green and nice, but so far as agriculture is concerned . . . It requires more rain. It requires more rain and early tide. Right now the river is full, but it is not flooding. It is full. See, Mr. Choudhuri, he was interested. At that time when the Chief Minister wrote that, then he wrote this, that "If you were to see the Chief Minister, then this type of letter could be submitted and he would definitely see you," although it is not necessary to see him. Do you think it is? No, it's not necessary to personally see him. You might write . . . when you come to Māyāpur we'll write him invitation that he can come and see and visit you there. That was better. Mr. Choudhuri said that, "Your Guru Mahārāja, he has also got the Vaiṣṇava pride not to see the politicians." He said: "This is a good stand. I respect this very much." Actually he mentioned once to Abhirāma confidentially that, "If this project comes through, then you'll be requiring some liaison officer, because there will be so many government things. At that time I can work for you as your permanent advisor and go to Delhi and here and there and do all the work." I think he wants a job. I thought that Mr. Choudhuri would do everything, but that is not the position. Almost he is doing everything. Actually he's trying to say that he did everything. But I think that when we saw Tarun Kanti Ghosh, that cleared up . . . that matter with Chief Minister, that cleared that up. As far as the other lower secretary men are . . . Mr. Choudhuri did everything. The Chief Minister doubt, I think Tarun helped clear that up. That's the only thing that he couldn't change the mind of is the Chief Minister. Otherwise he did everything else, almost, you can say. He came on the last ekādaśī . Just last ekādaśī , what, ten days ago? Seven days ago he came for the ekādaśī to Māyāpur just to see. Who? Tarun Kanti Ghosh. He took prasādam , he took the ekādaśī , and he liked it very much. *I just saw him also just before Janmāṣṭamī, and he was still very favorable then. We talked for about an hour and a half. He introduced me to all the MLAs of the twenty*-four paraganās . Tarun Kanti? When I go preaching, then I go, and the government MLA and Congress people, they also help me. They arrange sometimes places for me to stay and big program. And they protect that no people cause us any disturbances. Although we don't . . . What about our Godbrothers? The Godbrothers . . . They are also opposing? Subhaga made a very bad . . . Bhavānanda sent him over to invite Śrīdhara Swami for Janmāṣṭamī, as a show of respect. When he went there, and Śrīdhara Swami . . . he's not so clever boy. So Śrīdhara Swami asked him that, "Oh, what about your land acquisition?" What does he know about land acquisition? We never discussed anything with him. He can only know by hearsay or any . . . so then Subhaga said: "Oh, it's in the hands of the Chief Minister," for which I reprimanded him. He should have denied any knowledge of the matter at all. "Why you have given any information?" But they are very interested in these things, and maybe they are still trying to stop it, but I don't think they have the power. They have no power. They are the ones who have raised up that first petition, that Surendra dāsa, I think, and others. They are behind that. They themselves were in the market trying to get petition against, but no one would sign for them. We made a little of political . . . because in Māyāpur now we have got seventy percent of the people are . . . In our favor. In our favor strongly. And only a minority are actively opposed, one percent even. And thirty per cent are in doubt. So, so much so that even I saw recently the MLA who was previously against us. And when I saw him I invited him for Janmāṣṭamī, and he said what about our program for a bridge? I said: "Oh, yes, I discussed with Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he suggested having a floating bridge to Navadvīpa. That will be very short, very easily done, with least expense." He said: "Anyway, next time you come to Navadvīpa you can discuss with me. I am ready to help you in all ways." So he has turned his mind around. Who? The MLA, the local Member of Legislative Assembly. He was previously a little against us. But because our whole . . . (indistinct) . . . is for us, if he doesn't cooperate he won't get their vote, because they want the development in their area. Also the . . . he is changing a little. Everyone is saying that our Society is actually simply doing sincere work. As they are doing. This food distribution has been very important. Oh, yes. *Now the price of rice has gone up by about eighty paisa . From two rupees to two*-eighty. So the poor class of people, they are in a very bad situation. So now our attendance has gone up from twelve hundred to two thousand on that Saturday and Sunday, each day. So we have two shifts. So many people are coming that they come from ten o'clock in the morning and wait, because otherwise they can't get a boat in time to cross the river. So then we were very surprised to read in a recent newsletter from LA that, "They're going to restart the food relief." But we never knew it stopped. We never knew that they had stopped the food relief. We saw then that he said, "They're going to restart." But we never stopped, and we were very surprised to see that. And now they say . . . Who said? Rāmeśvara. To maintain this food relief from the centers only requires what? Fifteen hundred dollars a month. Something like that, yes. About fifteen hundred dollars a month. So little amount, and so much service is done. Yes. So I know Tamāla, he was giving one thousand, but he has stopped now. He was giving one thousand a month. And now he has stopped. Rāmeśvara, you wrote him a letter that, "Jayapatākā Swami should be sent money for ISKCON Food Relief." And he told me that, "I am sending you. I have four thousand dollars," which he sent. Of that we had already been 36,000 rupees in debt because we hadn't received money for six months. But he wrote in a newsletter to the temples that, "Prabhupāda has wrote me to send money to Jayapatākā Swami; and now we're going to start again ISKCON Food Relief." But that was making it appear that we had stopped. But actually we had never stopped. Rāmeśvara. He did not know? Rāmeśvara had stopped collecting from the temples. But we had never stopped . . . Anyway, he'll collect. That's all. So anyway, your program everyone is appreciating. When the newspapermen came out, at that time the . . . (indistinct) . . . development officer he came there, and when the newspapermen were there he sat down with all the poor people, and he took also, and said: "This is very good. This is our national service." And they photographed. "National service"? Yes, he mentioned. Still, though, because of these articles, it has been a little bit hard to secure money from people now, because the people who are giving us money, they are under investigation also, the rich people. So when they see we are under investigation, oh, then they get afraid. They don't want to give. Why? Because we're under investigation and they're also being investigated, so they don't want to endanger . . . the government is every day raiding the houses of the rich people. Anyway, what is the investigation? They are being investigated for income tax. For income tax. The government is making it so that no one can give any donation. They don't want any more donation. They want everything to come to the government. So it's not easy to get money locally. We are getting enough to do maintenance, but it is not like it was, say, two or three years ago, when you could get 25,000, 15,000, especially in Calcutta, where the income tax, every day they are raiding the houses. Even if people give, a life . . . patron member, 2,222, if they are not so big, they want to give in installment, and even though they'll give at one time with postdated . . . they want different receipt, because if they give one lump sum, then it makes it seem that like they are very rich. Although they'll give you at one time, they want small, small receipt so that the income tax won't think, "Oh, they are giving so much donation? They must be very rich. They must have hidden wealth which we can capture from them by investigation." So in this way they are very much pressurized. Sometimes they prefer to give money without receipt. Soon on the whole, our program is going on. Oh, yes. No, it's going on more. The book distribution is going on more. More people are joining. There's no hindrance. That I want. These are simply minor obstacles. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Pālikā was just wondering if you wanted anything tonight. Yes. If she can . . . she can make little vegetable—potato, tomato. Purīs ? Yes. Or one paraṭā . One paraṭā . Just potatoes and tomato? Yes, tomato, potato, one vegetable. Prabhupāda's house. Your house. You have not decided where you want to put your house. I wanted that if the major project is done, then we can select. What do you think? Let the big land be acquired and pick the best place. Let the whole land be acquired and then pick the best place. You wanted to wait for the whole land to be acquired, and then pick the best place. Yes. And not I want, but that you all see, which is the best place. For the most privacy. For the time being, that place is very nice, that pond. What is there? It's become congested there now. Yes. We have 125 people now. 138. 138 people now. 138 people are living there. Women, children . . . Yes. There's fifty children now. So that place is now . . . the front has become somewhat congested . . . Congested. . . . with noise and children. What about the painting? Painting is going on. Oh, yes. They've done about sixteen or seventeen, I think. Our men? Yes, yes. Two men. Ānakadundubhi and . . . What's his name? Pāṇḍu. *(indistinct) . . . I went to Haridaspur as soon as I received your letter because Bahusvarūpa was there, making arrangement for the Janmāṣṭamī festival. So I spoke to all those people for two days, Thursday and Friday. And the land is in the name of the zamindar , Mr . . . Ghosh family. There's fourteen members who have to sign. So in Haridaspur nine members are living, and they are all agreed for signing. And they say the other five members live in Calcutta. Once they sign the deed, they'll also sign. There's no doubt, because that's not even in their possession. That's in the public's possession. And all the public, Anchal*-pradhan and all the other leaders of that village, they are also all eager to have us start. I think that we can also raise some money in the neighborhood. There's some relatively rich people. So that . . . I was trying to register that before I came here, but because Monday is . . . that zamindar has one haṭṭa . And that's . . . his haṭṭa day is Monday, so he was busy. And Tuesday was Janmāṣṭamī by government of West Bengal, and Wednesday was our Janmāṣṭamī and Haridaspur Janmāṣṭamī, and I came here today, Thursday, so we couldn't do it beforehand. But as soon as I go back, I can register that. And . . . but someone should immediately come, Mūrti or Saurabha or someone, and see that land. No, no, we have to . . . yes. We have to see, make plans. *Because actually just by giving the site plan you can't make a plan, because that's a high area, and it goes down to the river. So from our land to the river, that is also under our use. That is kashjami . That is no*-man's land. But that we can also use, and that has to be some strengthening so that when the river . . . and rain cannot wear away the side. So these details they should come and see, and then they could make a proper plan, I think. Without seeing, they can't make. 'Cause it's a very small area, it should be very well planned. And the local people there, they are very innocent people. They don't seem to have any type of enmity or envy at all. They all come and chant and see. Although they don't strictly follow the rules, naturally—they eat fish and other things and smoke—but they seem to be simple people. If someone would work with him, I think he could make the whole village gradually Kṛṣṇa conscious. Yes. But who that person is right now to work, that we have to train up some of our men. Because right now . . . He can do, Svarūpa. He can take training, and he can do. And then, gradually, others will join. I think all the children, they could become brahmacārīs . If the parents would be agreeable, they could become brahmacārīs and attend morning some class, then go to school. In this way, if the whole village could be made Kṛṣṇa conscious at least by chanting and attending, chanting . . . Chanting is the main thing. Chanting and distributing prasādam . If we get prasādam , then . . . and I think that they all contribute some grain. They are very poor agricultural people, but there's no theft there. I asked. There's one man who has three acres. Three bighās of land he's giving. So they just grow their rice there and . . . You can ask that instead of making paraṭā , a light khicuṛi in the morning. That is . . . Instead of that sabjī and everything. No, sabjī can make. Khicuṛi instead of paraṭā , as she made in the morning. So khicuṛi will be easy, light. You want some khicuṛi and the potato? Put in the khicuṛi and tomato. Like in the morning. Yes. Do you want anything like purī or anything to eat with it? No. Just khicuṛi with the vegetable. That will be easily digested. Digestion is not good now. This will help digestion. Yes. This medicine. Yes. There is ginger, I think. No. This is ajwain . My only concern is about the Immigration Department. They are gagging you, "Now you finished . . . go out. Go away, go out . . ." So they are making so big, big arrangement. If my foreign disciples are forced to go away, then what is the happen? That is . . . Well, as far as myself . . . of course, I was supposed to leave yesterday. But there is very easy process. You can come in and out and stay six months. So that, make plans. That will . . . otherwise we are making so big, big, big plan. Who will manage? For that matter, we can get . . . even the American citizen, they can get outside . . . by various means you can get Canadian or English passports. But even then, we can go to Lahore, get visa three months, come in, but you can stay six months. Then go out again, get another visa, come in and out. There is no problem. We have already done that with some of the other men. Make . . . find out such means. Otherwise . . . Alexander the Great, having so many kingdom, and as soon as he goes away, it is finished. *Also, if you would write . . . I think if you wrote a letter to Brahmānanda Reddy and that Mr. Mehta, the Deputy Assistant or whatever, minister, regarding these questions coming in the Rāja*-sabhā about this Māyāpur and Vṛndāvana, "Actually these two centers are my . . . I am founder- ācārya of these centers, and the people working there are not independent of me. I have asked them to come for assisting me." Then, if a letter like that is written to them, and send me one copy, that will help immigration also, I think. Also another investigation, we're always asked, "Where is your headquarters?" And then "Our headquarters is in India." It must be always stated, "Our headquarters are India." If we say "foreign," that means we are controlled by foreign. We must publish everywhere that our head . . . No, we have mentioned headquarters Bombay? We just said offices. Yes. They think that Los Angeles is our headquarters. That is for America. We explain like that. But real headquarter here. I think if one letter is given that, "We are purely Indian, that I am the ācārya , and they are simply helping me, they are not . . ." Yes, that is the fact. Actual facts is . . . that would help, if such a letter was given. Then on the basis of that, we can also go and preach or talk, or we can show that to the local people, that "This is . . ." Because they keep thinking that we are coming on our own. Because you are outside traveling, they see us only, and they think we are independent. No, in every letter heading there is my name, " Ācārya , Founder- ācārya ." That is their stupidity. But if some . . . that one direct letter, short letter, then if we have a copy I'll show that to the CID there, that "This, Prabhupāda has written to the Minister of Home. This is in answer to your question." Then take that copy. I'll make one draft. No, I have written already letter? You've written already letter? To the Home Minister? I didn't get. Has he written a letter to the Home Minister? No, Home Minister has given one letter. I have that letter. You have one. Oh. Also, all over Bengal people are appreciating. I went . . . when we go preaching in the small towns . . . (aside) Wait, I am coming. Among the . . . amongst these . . . not only for India, but the whole world. You are doing nice work to push this movement. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura wanted Indians, Americans. They can . . . Prabhupāda also. Now make plans how to . . . we are not concerned only with India. All over the world. Make plan. Think over. Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence. Prabhupāda would come to Māyāpur. When is your program for coming to Māyāpur? All the devotees are offering their obeisances to you. Bhavānanda Goswami, he is following very strictly the cāturmāsya this year. He doesn't eat anything before sunrise. The weather there is very nice, because the monsoon is mild. It is very nice, cool weather. I have got a bad impression, Bengal during rainy season. Yes, right. Is it not? This year, for the first two months it was . . . No, it was not rainy season. This season. Otherwise, any season in Bengal, not are very good. Insect season. Not only insect. There are . . . insects are there? There's no insects now. Rainy season no insects. No, after rainy season. After rainy season. After rainy season. And insect is not so bad. Indigestion. Indigestion. That is the . . . What part of India is good during rainy season? Is there any part of India that's good during rainy season? Vṛndāvana's not too bad. I think Vṛndāvana. Is it not? I was there last year. I only know Bengal. (laughs) You are now Bengali. (laughs) And they are not giving citizenship? *Myself? What happened was I applied last September. So now it's nearly one year. So they had sent my application from Māyāpur to Calcutta, Writer's Building. Again back. Again Writer's Building, then to Delhi. Then Delhi sent again back. I went, and I asked the secretary, and then I found out that they had sent again back from Delhi, again back to Māyāpur, and then re*-investigated me. At that time they brought in some local people, and one investigator, he said that, "This Jayapatākā Swami, we have heard that he is a very bad person. He beats the people." They said: "No, we never heard such thing." "No, no. We have heard that he is very bad." In this way, by negative they are testing. They came and told me that for two hours police is drilling three different people from Navadvīpa and from Māyāpur. In this way no one said a bad . . . No, if you are a famous man, then they'll do. That is very good. Him and Bhavānanda. Now Bhavānanda is more famous. He is notorious. But now he is in the papers. (laughing) He . . . you are famous; he is notorious. It is very difficult to deal with these nonsense. They are devotees, and neither notorious nor famous. Our Godbrothers, they do not like Bhavānanda. Eh? No, they don't like me anymore either. Ācchā ? What is your fault? They always thought, because I am not so outspoken, that "Jayapatākā, we can get him to do as we like." But ultimately I don't do anything for them either, so now they don't like me either. Bhavānanda openly was against, and I was passive. I didn't say anything. But when they came to me I also . . . actually, I am afraid. Mādhava Mahārāja, he invited me to attend his program, some festival day . . . Where? At his Maṭha. Ten days? Ten days. *No, it was a three*-day program. He invited us for one day. But I was afraid to go. He might even poison me. But they personally went . . . That is their business, especially Mādhava Mahārāja. If not materially by poison, then spiritually by ear. One way or other, they have to give poison. So I didn't even want to go. I didn't go, either. Śrīdhara Mahārāja is also within the group? Of course, all those details we don't know. By the way, Tīrtha Mahārāja—very sick. Eh? Oxygen. He can't breath. He is on a bed with oxygen. Life and death any moment. Injection, oxygen, barely staying alive. One day better, one day worse. Now they say better; then again they say worse. In this way his life is going on. But they say that his brother, Samvidananda, a barrister . . . (break) . . . and they've done a great to improve that. Now everyone is improved. Everyone is improved because of their example. That is what we simply need, are people . . . I saw the program so nicely, if people would simply come and work sincerely, they'll make spiritual advancement. They'll chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very quickly they'll become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So now we're seeing that we're being . . . we're demanding that sincere people come. Yes, it may not be the association of lazy people, free hotel. No. Bhavānanda, he's strict on that. He's very strict. Without working, no one can eat. Yes. Not only work, but attending the program. That is essential. They all attend maṅgala-ārati , evening ārati . They should also attend morning class. That's nice. Work is partial. These things are essential. Maṅgala-ārati and morning class. But some of these men are workers. They're not . . . No, our cloth necessities are supplied by ourselves? The cloth? The difficulty is right now we have twenty thousand rupees' worth of cloth in stock. That is all profit. We only are three thousand rupees in debt. But we have all the cloth, we have no customers. Why? There's no customers. We have a huge stock . . . You send immediately to America. They will pay. We sent a newsletter to get people to buy cloth the cloth, because we have a huge stock of it. Now, you ask Bhagavān. He is very clever. He's expert. We are worried that now we're getting good men to join, they're doing good work, then how . . . I think if you prepare according to the order of our foreign centers, then you won't be . . . they will all give. You can make fine cloth? We can make up to eighty count. Eighty count we can make now. They are purchasing cloth, shirt and everything. They're saying . . . sometimes they say that, "The cloth you make is not what we like." But I tell them we can make any cloth. You give us sample. You tell us. We'll make to your specification." They don't . . . Even . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, Jayatīrtha, Bhagavān dāsa, they'll help. The GBCs can write a letter, and I'll sign it, you and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. All right, I'll write a letter. Let's not bother Prabhupāda. How is that, twenty thousand stock is there? You can send it. In India there is no customer? No, because it's made according to European length. Big size. Up to now we've been making according to the devotees' specification. To make for Indian we have to make a different type. We can also make Indian sārī and other thing. They'll be cheaper one. But previously we were making because we thought that all the foreign branches . . . So whatever . . . now you can make Indian style. You keep great stock. Well, we are hearing that they are buying the cloth elsewhere. All right. Come on. All right. Eh? They are buying elsewhere? Yes. They are buying sometimes from other. (to Jayapatākā) All right. Let's go and chant. We'll come back tomorrow. Other thing we can discuss tomorrow. (break) . . . Birla It is difficult to go there. It is difficult to go there. Yes. And here there is more devotion. Here they are devotees. We made this for distributing, and the public, they take and worship in their home, purchase it. (to Jayapatākā) Let's go. They purchase? Yes. Yes. This is Indian printing. Calcutta? Yes. (break) So, so far the building is concerned, that is already settled up. Yes, that's all settled. Then, what other? *Well, there were some other lighter matters. When I was traveling in my preaching, then last time in Māyāpur, when that Haridaspur, when they offered, you mentioned to me that you liked that we develop these . . . all these holy spots. So just as a matter of convenience, whenever I was near any holy spot that you mentioned in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , I would go and just visit the place. So in my tour, one place I went to was very nice, and that sevaite, he spontaneously, when I showed him all your work, he had offered me that he would like to give the temple to you. That temple is much, much more developed than Haridaspur. That's the temple of Maheśa Paṇḍita. Oh. *And that is the seventeenth branch of Lord Nityānanda. It's got the personal Deities of Nitāi*-Gaura that he used to worship. It's got a building worth about fifty thousand rupees on it. A nice, brand-new nātha-mandira. This man is Shri Keshav Priya Brahmacari. He's a disciple of that Krishna Prem, that Mr. Nixtan or something. Oh. He talked personally with Bhaktisiddhānta, I heard, in Sanskrit many years ago. He's a disciple. He's Indian or . . .? *Well, it's an unusual story that that man was a pilot in the World War, and he was flying over Himalayas or something, and he saw Kṛṣṇa in his mind's eye or something. And then, when he was shot down, he saw Kṛṣṇa, and then, when he landed, he searched out who he saw, and he came to Vṛndāvana or something and saw the Deity of Kṛṣṇa, and he became initiated at Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa temple. *Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa This is that guru story. Now he only made a few disciples, and he always was chanting. Also Panditjī, he knew more. I don't know so much about his guru but I've heard a little bit that this foreigner became a guru or became a Vaiṣṇava. Nixon? His previous name is Nixton; his initiated name was Krishna Prem. Oh, yes. He was in Almora. Almora, yes. I don't know exactly where Almora is. Almora is a hilly station, Himalaya. If . . . Almora, one goes from Lucknow. *So this brahmacārī is a disciple of him. Therefore he doesn't have any connection. There's no sampradāya anymore, because his guru disappeared, and somehow he's got this sevā . These are the Deities there of Nitāi*-Gaura. There's about twelve śālagrāma-śilās also. And a little Rādhā-Gopīnātha. This is all mentioned in your purport. It's only about four or five hundred yards. I could read from it. Eh? No, that's all right. It's four or five hundred yards from the Palpara Railway Station. It's the next station from Chuktaha, under Chuktaha police station. Chuktaha? Chakdah. Chakdah. That's where you take your . . . that mango orchard where you take your lunch? That's just the nearest place to Chakdah So he was very pleased with all the work that you are doing. He's in Vṛndāvana now for Janmāṣṭamī. He hadn't been to Vṛndāvana for five years, so he went to Vṛndāvana for darśana . He may be there even when you go. I'm not sure if he'll be there then. You have advised to see our temple? *Yes, he'll definitely visit. I also gave him an introduction that if he goes, he should be received there. He's got . . . the present place where the Deities are situated is on four kuttas of land. And apart from that, where Maheśa Paṇḍita's samādhi is, he's got three bighās of land. That's right next to a four*-hundred-year-old temple. Chakdah is to the . . . it is from Shrirampur? No. No, it's on this side of the Ganges. It's on the eastern side of the Ganges. Oh, eastern. There there's another temple of Jagadīśa Paṇḍita. Hmm, yes. That is run by Mādhava Mahārāja. That's in actual Chakdah, and this is another mile or two miles from Chakdah. That Jagadīśa Paṇḍita mandira has got big Jagannātha Deity, and one stick which Jagadīśa Paṇḍita carried the Jagannātha Deity from Jagannātha Purī with. I saw both temples. They told me there that "You should see this temple, very lovable Deities." And I went in. Actually the Deities are very beautiful and very well kept. Just like in Mādhava Mahārāja's mandira , underneath the siṁhāsana they didn't wash. Only in front. But this man, everything was neat and clean. It looked like a thriving, more or less, a thriving place. So difficulty is that if we take charge, we may give it for worshiping to one disciple, but the Immigration Department will gag him. That is the difficulty. And we don't have many Indian disciples. Otherwise, we can take all these important places. Also, last when I was in Calcutta and I saw Tarun Kanti Ghosh, then he mentioned to me again that the people from Pānihāṭi, this time that they had reached a decision that they wanted to give us the sevā of the Rāghava Paṇḍita's house. So we take. Let us take it. That's a very important . . . but that's in dilapidated state. We shall repair. In the letter of the Home Minister where he said that every disciple can stay for two years, possibly if he allowed that in every center, if a minimum of a few people could stay for citizenship, then that might . . . Yes. Ordinary, by rotation, and three, two or three or four permanent, by citizen, if he allowed to stay . . . Yes. . . . then that would solve the problem. Yes. That make. Not too many. Not too many. Say at least five. They will manage. Four or five. All others on rotation. Then they will manage. And if they allow two years, that's all right. One devotee comes, another goes, another . . . that will be done. Because some that are acclimatized, it is difficult for training up. A few people are better to stay there that are trained up on that basis. I think with Mr. Patnaik and others that . . . because he also wants that Orissan development . . . they can understand that it is important to have one or two people that are known people stay there. If every two years a change is, that is disadvantage. *No, our Gaura*-Govinda, I think he is doing there nice. He's doing nice in Bhubaneswar. Yes. He has already few cottages? Of course, I didn't see myself. I heard he has got a few cottages, three, four cottages. So our Gargamuni has seen? *Yes, I think Gargamuni has seen. Gargamuni is giving him some help. He printed one Orissan book, and he gives him sometimes some books and help. He is fixed up, that Gaura*-Govinda. He's fixed up. That's nice. Let him translate in Orissa and, if possible, in Hindi. And give him few devotees. Then he'll be encouraged. *I think he has got two or three devotees now. This man himself is a pretty capable worker. He's similar like Prabhu Swarupa, only a little older, little more mature. He's about forty*-five or so. He's been able to collect about, what I can see, about fifty thousand rupees for one nātha-mandira. So he is al . . . and he has a couple thousand people. I heard from the Gauḍīya Maṭha. They say they have big utsavas there. Every year two, three thousand people come. Yes. So he's a capable . . . Manager. . . . manager in his own right. He wanted to meet you. So let us cooperate with him. You take it. And he is there. In the meantime, our men may be trained up. He's invited us to come. He has some festival coming. Then we can just go . . . Yes. That . . . . . . and keep a good relationship. Oh, yes. The main one is in December. Our difficulty is this immigration. If we can manage this, then all such places we can take. There is no question. The only thing is that government is gagging. One has to go, and it means ten thousand rupees unnecessarily. If that ten thousand rupees was invested in developing that center, much improvement could be done. But they are gagging. They are dreaming, "CIA." When I go back, I'll see this Raghava Pandit, because there the MLA, he himself wants it because that's a very important place and it's going bad. So that MLA can help us to get some citizenship. With MLA and with Tarun Kanti Ghosh . . . Yes. . . . we can use them for pushing, because they are personally interested. Yes. They'll be able to help. *You can bring so many men and keep everyone in charge of such places, and it will develop. Money, there is no scarcity. But the difficulty is as soon as we establish, the Immigration, "You go away." This is . . . what is this? You say the MLA and this Tarun Kanti, "This is our difficulty. Otherwise there is no difficulty. We can take all the charge and develop them very nicely." So if one man is kept in charge, and after few months he's advised, "Go away," then all his training goes to hell and we have to spend another ten thousand rupees. This is the difficulty. What . . . we are not . . . not a single case there is that we have taken any part in politics. So give us some facility. We can take charge of everything. Tell them that actually that is fact, that there is no scarcity of money. We can bring money from America and develop. There is no difficulty at all. The difficulty is the Immigration Department. You can say that "Prabhupāda has put this philosophy, andha . . ." What is that? Paṅgu. Andha*-paṅgu-nyāya. Blind and . . . depends on this . . . blind and . . . I think you have already know. Blind man, lame man. One man is blind, another man is lame. Both of them are useless. But when they combine, the blind man takes the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man gives direction to the blind man, "Go this way. Go this way." So he walks. So both of them are benefited. So America has got money, but blind. And India has got culture, but lame. So let us combine. Then things will be done very nice. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya . Just like I am the same man. I was finding difficulty to start this mission in India, very, very difficult. With great hardship I published three books. But as soon as I went America, the andha-paṅgu-nyāya became successful. So this is the position. *So instead of becoming envious from political . . . we have nothing to do with . . . to the Americans unnecessarily thinking they are CIA. CIA . . . let American money and India's culture combine together, and the whole world will be benefited. America has got enough money, they can spend. Either they give me as the price of my book or anything, money is there like anything. India has got culture. So Indian culture, Vedic culture, Bhagavad*-gītā culture, pushed through American money, the whole world will be benefited. Convince these things. It is not the question of "India," "America," here . . . it is a cultural movement for the benefit of the whole world. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). It is cultural movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is aiming pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi. So "Tarun Babu, you are such a devotee of Caitanya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants it. Pṛthivīte āche yata . . . why don't you help us? Your family is devotee of Lord Caitanya, and this is spreading Caitanya's mission. You should give up everything and join this movement, if you are actually a devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And Prabhupāda says that he knows at your heart you want that Caitanya's movement is spread all over the world, so far he has studied you. So let us join together. Why we should unnecessarily be biased, 'American' and 'Indian' and . . . let us join together and spread Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement all over the . . . they'll be happy. Everyone will be happy. It is such a nice . . . India will be glorified. America will be glorified." If we . . . you came here. You have got so much strength. If you work continually, the whole world will be . . . so those who are offering, take. Take those places. Let us begin. If anyone wants some property, we should take immediately. You said there is already building cost fifty thousand? So that's a property. So if they are offering, you take it and develop. These are historical places. Haridaspur is also historical, I think. Hmm? Yes. Vena? Venapur is nearby. Two miles. Two miles. Two or three miles. No, that's been . . . Haridaspur, since time of Lord Caitanya, for many, many years, four hundred . . . right from the time of Lord Caitanya they are calling that. They say there's no doubt that Haridāsa Ṭhākura came that way. That must be. It is two, three miles. If he was a person belonging to Venapur, so two, three miles surrounding he must have gone. There is no doubt. And if you can establish good relationship with Pakistan, Bangladesh, then our whole question is solved. Go there, seek some preaching and come here, and all these motorcar problems . . . I don't want to sell them, you know . . . No, it is a very . . . . . . because we took great hardship to bring them. Oh, yes. Why we should sell them? They are so useful. Yes. They have done so much work already. *It is . . . nowadays motor vehicle is important item for anyone. We have spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness so quickly on account of the modern transport facilities, so we must take it as favorable. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). Anukūla , favorable. Favorable, favorable. It is not we have got . . . (indistinct) . . . with material. That is not Rūpa Gosvāmī's . . . prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi . . . this cars can be used for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why it should be condemned? That is not intelligence. Rūpa Gosvāmī condemns it. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256). Things which is in the service of the Lord, if we think it is material, that is not vairāgya . That is not renouncement. That is foolishness. (break) When I was traveling in Burdwan, there we saw the big palace of Mahārāja of Burdwan. Yes. *Gigantic. He has given that to the university. Then we did a kīrtana at his . . . he has one temple of Rādhā*-kānta. There's . . . present ācārya is about a twenty-two-year-old boy. He's in the sampradāya of Nimbārka Svāmī. So he doesn't know anything about . . . very much about spiritual life, although he is following the tradition. That's such a vast . . . that building is vast. I can't explain to you how big that is. It makes our . . . it's at least five times bigger than our building in all ways, and . . . Eh? Than our building, five times bigger, I think, in length and . . . it is a huge compound. He has got much land in the name of the Deity. So he's becoming a member because he wants to read your books to understand about Lord Caitanya and spiritual . . . Now for making member you should be very clear so that no misunderstanding can take place. Books, we shall give five books. Yes, that . . . Yes. On my form I have already printed we give five books. "When you finish, you return this; you take another. When you finish that . . ." In this way. Well, we've been doing with members in Calcutta, members who want more of the books, they sign the standing order and they pay us for the books. That is another thing. Every month. One book a month and they pay. That's all right. And they sign the standing order. That's nice. So we have taken many personal standing orders. Yes. *We have one boy, Santoṣa. He goes door to door, meeting Bengali men, and they are signing standing orders and taking Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. He has already done four standing orders in about ten days' time. Bengalis? Bengalis? Yes, only to Bengalis. Because it's in their language . . . Yes. They can read. No, it is in English. Anyone can. Yes, but Bengalis, they can appreciate more Caitanya Mahāprabhu. I tell the members that, "You can't get any Bhāgavatams ," because there's too many. No, no. Why not? If he reads, give him. And it is very easy. Suppose I give you five books. You become member. So you read it and take another five books. This five books I can give to another. In this way we can manage. There is no misunderstanding. We give you book for reading, not for selling. Not that, "I have given money. Now so many books, let me sell it and get return as many, as much money as possible." Bāniyā tendency is like that. Because they're paying 2,222 rupees. If they only give them five books on exchange, I don't think now they'll be satisfied. What for he's taking? They're satisfied. No, no. Now we're giving them the books. No, no. We told them, "You can't have any books." What is the cause of dissatisfaction? You take the books for reading, so you finish this and again we give five books. We take back this and give you in exchange. So actually we give them five books for good. That we are prepared. Five books at fifty rupees each, that one or 250. But they're giving two thousand rupees. That's all right. That's for membership. That isn't just for books. Sometimes they stay in our mandiras . Yes. We pay for their prasāda . And three days free boarding and lodging. In this way things should be clear so that in future they may not complain, "Ah, we . . ." as they are doing. Somebody is coming, "Oh, we have given 1100 rupees to live here forever." Some ladies came like that. Yes, I know. I met that lady. Yes, they take it, advantage, "Oh, we shall get all books, we shall live forever. There is no charge, pay." That misunderstanding should be . . . So now we say they can live forever, but as we live. Yes, that's all right. That . . . that you can do. Not that they will get special privilege of . . . as hotel. They must live like us. But they want free hotel. That is . . . they want free. Sometimes old man who has got some money . . . No, old . . . old man is different. He wants to live, and he is too weak to do anything. That's all right. He wants to chant and give some money. Let him purchase one room. Let him live . . . for life he can live, and we give him prasādam free. Purchase one room. Eight, ten thousand rupees. No, fifty thousand, I think. In Vṛndāvana we are selling sixty thousand. Sixty thousand. No, but those rooms have attached bath. In our room there is no attached bath. No, I mean to say in Vṛndāvana, that's all right. Or anywhere. Whatever money is fixed up, let him pay, live in his room comfortably, and we give him free prasādam . There is no harm. But he must attend the ārati , and rules and regulations. There is no . . . No tea, nor . . . all the rules he should follow. Yes. Attend the program. Even if old men cannot follow, still, he should be given. What about tea? Tea, tea can . . . then he'll caught. That is not. Because the old men, they are addicted to the tea. No, what . . . many old men, they can give it up. We will promise them cow's milk. That's nice. Pure cow's milk. That "Instead of this tea, you take milk." Little milk, that is beneficial. So membership should be clearly defined, so that they may not misunderstand. But we're not having trouble now. That's all right. Because we printed a new form. And generally, when members come they always donate more, so we give them one book. Yes. They always . . . I visited one hundred members, and all of those old members, they gave another one thousand. Just see. Yes, they will give. I know. They'll give if you treat them nicely. Oh, yes. And I gave them one book, and they're satisfied. Any person who has money, they'll receive. So many places they are offering us land . . . There's another man who wants to give a big property. When you come to Calcutta he wants to see you. In Calcutta? No, it's in Rajasthan. Oh. It's a palace which he's not using. And he met you in Bombay. He also visited our centers in Paris and New York. He's a Marwari man, very rich, very nice. He's also donated good sums to the Society. So now he wants to meet you, and he wants someone to go there. So I told him we will go and look at it. Where? It's in Rajasthan. Rajasthan? Where? Which side. It's near Bikaner. It's with agricultural land and a big house. They said they spent about fifteen lacks on it, marble house. The family is not using it. They have no use. We're getting a lot of offers. Yes. But because of Māyāpur, I have not taken them very seriously, because we already have huge affair in Māyāpur. But if you like, we can see. No, kāca dhun kāca kaphe : "If some property is offered, we should take it." That is the . . . and washed cloth, jācā dhun kācā kapha . If somebody offers you very nicely washed cloth, you should use it. And some property, you must use it. They are . . . you can utilize this property by inhabiting the persons, if they are inclined to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are rotting outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They may come to live. We are for everyone. So he . . . where does he reside, this gentleman? In Calcutta. His businesses are there. He's a wealthy man, very nice man. Where does he live? He's lives in Bara Bazar. His name is Mr. Buwalka. Bara Bazar Marwaris are all businessmen. Yes. *This is combination of rich men, poor men, for Kṛṣṇa. The same— andha*-paṅgu-nyāya . Both of them are useless separately, and when they combine in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are all useful. It is very good example. And there is another example, that a piece of wire is falling, rotting, and a piece of bamboo, rotting, and a piece of squash skin is rotting. And one gentleman collected. He nicely trimmed the piece and dried the squash, the outer portion, and took the bamboo and nicely cut it and joined the string, and this became a sitar: ting, ting, ting . So it is the intelligent person who joins all these things and makes it very useful. These are the examples. The bamboo alone is useless, and a small piece of wire, useless, and a thrown-out squash skin, useless. But if you can join them together, you can " ting, ting ." Similarly, andha-paṅgu-nyāya . Here is a lame man, here is a blind man. All right, combine together and use them. That is wanted. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhi labhate . This wire does not change. It is wire, it remains wire. But when it is combined, it is useful. So our propaganda is, "They are separately planning useless. Let them combine together in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All this planning shall be successful. We were all useless in the West, but you have come and then engaged us. *It is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Nobody is useless. I was also useless. I could not do in India alone anything. This is . . . again the same example: (laughs) two useless makes useful. Intelligence alone cannot work. Money is required. One man was challenged, "You have no intelligence." So he said, "Yes." He was searching these . . . "No, why you are searching here?" "No, here is intelligence. If here is money, then my intelligence can work. Otherwise what is the use of intelligence?" But he was searching here, "Whether I have got intelligence?" Simply intelligence . . . in industry also: land, labor, capital, organization—four things needed. Simple capital will not do. Simple organization will not do. A man may have very good brain power, organization, but if he has no money—useless. So four things required: land, labor, capital, organization. That minister in Raṅganātha, he is inclined to spend huge income of Tirupati, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But he is bound up by other colleagues. They are applying the money. So he's willing to call all the ministers if I can convince them. I shall try it. Just . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, yajñārthe karma . Everyone is karmī . So the karmīs , the village cultivators or big men industrialists, they are going to Tirupati. Whatever then can spare, they are offering. That is yajñārthe . If this money is taken and again if it is brought into karmī , then it is misleading. Karmīs are giving them. Just like people are giving us money. They are karmīs . But because they are giving us and we are engaging the money in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so the money is fully utilized. But if this money again taken and again to the karmīs . . . Without any spiritual work. Then it is a farce. His purpose is served, but one who is misleading the . . . he becomes criminal. The man who gives, his purpose is served. His purpose is served. The man who takes the money is . . . *He is to be punished. His misusing. Suppose in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement somebody gives us money. He is giving good faith that "It is very good organization." But if I misspend that money, then I am responsible. Then I'll be punished. His business is finished. Kṛṣṇa noted that he has given his hard*-earned money for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If I take that money . . . instead of doing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if I use it for my sense gratification, then I'll be . . . then I'll be responsible. What is the use of Kṛṣṇa's money being used for industry? Any purpose outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . let this money be utilized for spreading the glories of Kṛṣṇa. But they do not recognize Kṛṣṇa. All the so-called Bhagavad-gītā readers, they want to kill Kṛṣṇa. Yes, that's a fact. The Calcutta plan that you had, it is still under consideration. At first the Calcutta corporation refused, but then Abhirāma saw the Minister of Municipal Affairs, Mr. Subrata Mukerjee. So I gave the meaning. He said: "No, I want this." But there's still a problem, is that they'll allow a monument, but they don't want the Deity. They'll allow us to build a monument for Bhaktivedanta Swami but no Deity. Well, then take this proposal, "All right, no Deity." We shall hold meetings, lecture. What is that? In the park people come. And we decorate the whole hall with pictures. Gradually we worship one picture. Later on, maybe we can put Deity. Once it's built, they cannot tell us to get out. That's what Mr. Choudhuri said. Yes. He said, "You can take, and once a week you bring Deity and put, and other time you just do kīrtana ." Yes, yes. One week, it stays one week. Then it stays one month . . . We can take the Deity for a walk around the park, and then into the hall for two hours . . . For some time, two hours. And then take out. Yes, then do that. And we are inviting everyone. We have no distinction. Anyone can come to the park. Convince them. (break) "Come on! Take prasādam sumptuously." They'll be satisfied. They are hungry. Actually they are hungry, poorly paid, capitalist and worker. The trouble is, capitalists, they are taking all the profit, and they are enjoying life in wine and women. Naturally the worker will see that, "Why? We are working so hard, and they are making profit, and they are enjoying, and we do not live in a very nice house; it is a slum." Naturally they will be envious. If the capitalists spend the money for Kṛṣṇa consciousness—in each and every factory they hold festivals and give them eatables like anything—everything will be successful. We tell them that "If you give your Kṛṣṇa tax, this will save you from the income tax." Yes. "Because they are raiding . . ." Yes. ". . . because you are hoarding. But if you give . . ." The industrialists . . . that is also one of our programs. Let them hold festivals every Sunday, as we hold. And we shall go and have kīrtana and sumptuous feeding give. They'll be very satisfied. And instead of giving the income tax, let them spend in this way. Convince them. At the factories. Weekly foodstuffs. They feed all the workers. We'll prepare the prasāda , offer to the Deity and feed to all the workers. They'll be satisfied. Presently the building they're in now is unbearable, as far as living Why? Well, it is old building. Water supply is very bad. So you cannot . . . It is a rotten building. Rotten cannot be repaired? No. And the landlord won't allow him here. Why? Because he wants us to get us out . . . That's all right, but he . . . But he won't allow any repair. You have to have his permission to get repair. If you don't get landlord's permission, then you cannot repair. You're forced to live in a slum. No, no, you require permission of the landlord if he pays. No, no. Even if he doesn't. Any construction . . . No, I don't think that is the law. What is the law? I am feeling inconvenience, I cannot repair? No. No, how that can be? You can tell the police. No, then you have to go to the court, and that takes ten years. Just like he's in the court for five years now. He is not taking our rent. Then let us repair. Let him go to the court. Because by repairing, we have broken the law, so let him go to the court. (laughter) The same logic. Actually, Abhirāma . . . also, the facility for living there is only good for five or six persons. Otherwise it is not good. So they want to get a building. So what happened to the corner house? What happened to the corner house? No, that is still there. Then why don't you purchase it? Which corner one? The one right across? Yes. Left corner. No, but that's even worse condition than what we have. No, no, we break it and prepare nice temple. He went to see that man. That man, he doesn't want to sell. What was the . . . He's one of these Marwaris who is very miser. He himself lives in a slum. But right now Abhirāma hasn't found another place. I just talked to him. Let me talk . . . He told me ten minutes ago . . . (indistinct) So they are thinking they want to get . . . And one thing is that next thing will be . . . now there are many flats. Now, we have one flat that we are renting. Not renting. Purchase. Well, the only thing is with these flats in Calcutta, they are so mismanaged, these new places. They become a slum in two months. In Bombay the flats are managed nicely, but in Calcutta when they build a new one, within two months the whole thing is filthy dirty, the elevators don't work. It's not worth purchasing a flat. I have one now. I am renting. It's on the twelfth floor, and the members of our traveling party stay there, you see. There is nice water and so many things. But the building is so mismanaged. Who wants to stay there more than a year? We need our own place. Then we can keep it clean and nice. Where is that own place? Well, there are buildings that we can get. In Ballygunge we have some offers. That's if this park doesn't come through. If the park does not come through, then we can . . . Yes. First of all try to make . . . this is the best place in Calcutta. I personally went with Abhirāma to see the minister, and the minister didn't give any stipulation. He was only for the project. His only reservation was that, he said first of all, politically, he doesn't know about our Society. If the government Home Department says that it's all right . . . as far as the program is, the program, the plan that was given, he totally accepts it as it is. That's when I saw him. Since then, Abhirāma has not seen him. But the people in the corporation, they have refused it without his sanction, and they have written him that the minister said he does not want it. When we took that—we showed it to the minister—he said: "This is completely wrong." He said: "No, no, no! There is some misunderstanding." Then he said, "You write me a letter that there is some misunderstanding, and I will take care of this matter." So he wrote the letter, and now they forward that letter back to the Calcutta corporation without a letter from the minister. Because he went back there. He just told me that. So it's back again to the same guys who, you know . . . of course, I don't know what letter he has written, but the officers would not tell us anything. Anyway, we will try our best. Why not take the Victoria Memorial? What is, they are doing? I have never gone inside. I heard it is simply old English armor and some swords. Yes, I have seen. And the marble is turning black. Because they don't . . . They don't clean. How they can afford to maintain such a building? Kṛṣṇa will maintain. Oh, we can. We can utilize it properly. And we'll have British pūjārīs . For the glory of Queen Victoria. Victoria. Let them send. Tell them that we shall bring. Victoria has . . . let them send to worship Victoria with prasādam of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is real Victoria Memorial. That is putra . (loud kīrtana in the background throughout) *Yes, great*-grandson. Putra is great . . . the putra was that Edward Seventh. No, but to lift from hell. When she gets prasādam . *Ah, yes. Puṁ*-nārakāt trāyate iti putra . Victoria died in 1903. There was great function, and this building started in 1903, and it was finished in 1922. After her death. Yes. Lord Curzon's plan . . . Lord Curzon wanted that let there be a king of India from the family of Victoria. He gave this plan. But this Parliament did not want that Englishman shall make India home. Then his interest will be in India. Just like America. Englishmen, as they made America their home, they declared independence. Australia. As soon as you make a home, then the more interest will be in India. Washington was Englishman. Was he not? Washington? Yes. Well, everyone came from England. Yes. Not from England many. But ordinary . . . so Englishman, why he declared war against the English? Their interest was in America more than England. Yes. Naturally. So as soon as you make home, your interest will be at home. So that was their policy. In those days no Englishman was allowed to purchase property in India. All his income, money, should go to England. So the Muhammadan Moguls, they made their home in India. Therefore they stayed for eight hundred years. They would not have gone. Indians did not like to finish the Muhammadan kingdom. No, never. It is the Englishmen. They penetrated and finished them, not the Indians. Indians were not against the Muhammadans. They are going on. Little bit discrepancies were there, especially during the time of Aurangzeb. He was bigot Muhammadan. He hated the Hindus. Not hated, but he was a . . . was is called, bigot, Muhammadan? He did not hate. That was not his qualification. Aurangzeb gave many contributions to the Vṛndāvana temples. Yes. And Aurangzeb's grandfather, Jahangir, he gave many temples to many brāhmins . There is one village just opposite Vṛndāvana, Keśīghāṭa: Jahangipura. This village was given to a brāhmin . From the income he was maintaining a temple. And Aurangzeb . . . you know Sringarpat Goswami? (entering room) Śrīla Prabhupāda, Shankar Kumar has brought the food and all these things to his place. So if you'd like to go afterwards or take here, or what would you like? No, no, let them take. Pradyumna thought that you wanted to take with them. So I can take, but you'll take . . . They'll have their food, and you will also have . . . No, what is that? Let them take here in the temple. In the temple? Yes. Because I will have to take at least one hour. How they will wait? Better they take separately. So Indians did not like that Muhammadans may go away. Rather, when Shri Rajdullah was arrested by flight, the Bengali zamindars , they protested. Rani Bhavani, she protested, although it is alleged that Shri Rajdullah kidnapped her daughter. But if Shri Rajdullah kidnapped her daughter, how he (she) supported Shri Rajdullah? There are so many falsehoods. On the whole, the Indians never planned to drive away the Muhammadans. They never. That's a fact. They were happy because there was no exploitation. All these Muhammadans, they made their home in India, so whatever lavishly they were spending, that was coming to the Indians. In Tollygunge there is a man—now they are aristocratic family—he was servant of the nawab , and he stolen one shoes, one feet, which was bedecked with jewels. So by selling that jewel he became a rich man. So although they were using jeweled shoes, but it was in India. They were satisfied that, "I am nawab . I am using jeweled shoes." But the jeweled shoes was in India, and these Englishmen, they have taken away all the jewels even from the walls, and keeping them in their homes—all gold, jewels, everything. Yeah. That's a fact that in those old houses, the Marwaris, they have inherited all of these pieces. Now they have it all. In the old British houses many Marwaris have taken over, and they have inherited all of the treasures of the British. Oh. Many antiques. Yes. Anyway, if I take away something from you in this room and I keep it somewhere in this room, then where is the difference either with you or with me? That was going on during Muhammadans' ruling. But these people, they took away from the room. Exploitation. *So India became poverty*-stricken. One more thing is that locally, that bank that opened there . . . They are . . . they are crazy fellows. That bank is worthless. They don't know anything about banking. They are farmers. Forget it. If bank like Central Bank or United, that bank . . . they are useless, and they are asking ten lakhs of rupees deposit. Five lakhs . They will give interest. They'd like a fixed amount . . . So who believes them? No, but I don't trust that bank because they already tried . . . they kept fifty thousand rupees. It took us two weeks to get that. They didn't have my signature. It doesn't matter, though. It's still . . . No bank would have given. Without signature no . . . Still, they're not a good bank. They have three . . . They are not . . . it is a small cultivator's cooperative. I wouldn't trust a small bank. At any time they can lose. They only have three or four branches. They're backed by the Reserve Bank. It doesn't matter. What do you mean, it doesn't matter? No big bank . . . (indistinct) . . . what big bank? Then who is going to deposit five lakhs of rupees with them? That is not possible. Yes, that's all right, but as far as the bank goes . . . That's all right. We can go on without the business. We cannot deposit. If any banker goes there, they'll want a deposit. But if a big bank . . . Yes. But why should we deposit five lakhs of rupees? The money value is decreasing daily. We get credit. If you deposit five lakhs now, it will decrease value in five, ten months. The purchasing power of money is decreasing. Now what you can purchase with five lakhs of rupees, after five years you'll require ten lakhs . So your money will decrease. And if you invest that money in land, after five years it will increase to its full extent. So why should we waste our money? What is the benefit? The farmers don't keep their money in the banks. The government is trying to force the farmers to keep their money in the bank. The farmers don't want to do it. Farmers' policy is if they have got money, they purchase land. Therefore they are making ceiling. The whole policy is not so good. Farmers, as soon as they get some money, they want to invest the land, but the ceiling . . . so they cannot invest money in the land, they give to the bank. And as soon as you keep money in the bank it will decrease the value. This is . . . That's a fact. Money is decreased, value of, all over the world. Because it is not money actually; it is paper, cheating. Real money is gold, they will not allow to keep this gold. The whole policy is vicious. If I purchase gold with five lakhs of rupees, then it is real money, and after five years I can sell it seven lakhs . That they will not allow. Therefore I . . . my policy is that whatever money is there, spend. Don't keep. In land, and produce food. That is the best use of. All buildings, government, there is no need of. And instead of keeping money and take interest, you print books. That is also good. You can sell. Or you purchase land for producing food. If we stock money, then there'll be no preaching. But if we print books, then we have to sell the books. So that is preaching. Therefore I am insisting all over, "Print any book." Never mind either Hindi or English or any . . . print book and keep it in stock, nicely. And gradually we will sell. Then we will preach. Otherwise, if we put it in . . . That is the purpose of my Bhaktivedanta Trust. Fifty percent must be spent for printing and fifty percent for building. That's all. No money. Don't keep any account. Then the government will never get envious, because there's nothing there. Yes. And we haven't got to keep so many accountant, auditors, and other nonsense, unnecessary expenditure. As soon as there is collection, invest the money in some building or in making some book, book printing. Follow this policy. I am very much eager. I have got money here and there, but I want to spend it in this way. So therefore I am advising take this. We shall invest renovating them and in developing them. Spend money. Don't keep it. Yes. So I'll tell them our policy is changed. We don't keep any more money in fixed deposit because it's a losing bargain? That's it. Actually it is losing. Actually it is losing. Every day the price . . . just like the price of rice has increased. It is up and down. *Up and down, now . . . take it. When it goes up it does not come down, generally. So this is practical example. Two months ago you were purchasing two rupees—now two*-eighty. So where is the value of the money? If we invest in books . . . just like this little pamphlet I printed. It cost me fifty paisa . If we sell it in one month . . . Yes. . . . then we will get fifty paisa profit. We will make double our investment. That was nicely . . . that was nicely printed. So in this way invest in books or land. We don't want to keep cash. And if they want to keep branch or not, that is up to them. We can't give them any money. If they want to keep branch or not, that's up to them. That should be up to them. If they keep branch we can take that. They'll go on. We will tell them frankly that for us to invest in books is more profitable, because after one month we get more. We cannot keep money, and without any . . . they will give interest. What is that interest? And he said we have printed fifty paisa and selling hundred paisa . So that much interest they cannot give. They'll give, utmost, ten percent. Ten percent per annum—not even one percent in a month. Your books will be our bank. Yes. We have got business. Why shall I keep in the bank? This is the policy. If your money is idle, we can spend it in our books, in our purchasing land, in temple, constructing temple, developing . . . so where you got that water? Water's there? Don't touch that water. No, there's one bucket of mixed with half a bucket of hot water. Yesterday what happened, the tank, some blockage there was . . . (end) Conversation -- August 20, 1976, Hyderabad . . . disorder. (break) . . . everything to Bombay. Yes. It is very convenient. Yes. That, that is better. I moved everything to Bombay. The main distribution should be from Bombay. Yes. Now because this Usha Printers is much bigger also, and we're getting better quality. Saurabha, what news, Bombay? The festival was a very great success. We counted approximately, for the last two days, twenty thousand people must have come. Somebody said five hundred. Somebody came and said that six hundred people Janmāṣṭamī night. It was packed. They were . . . I was surprised. I was surprised myself that six hundred people on Janmāṣṭamī night. They were everywhere. Who is that nonsense who came and said this? Who is that rascal? *He's a poor thirteen*-year-old boy. Oh. You believed the boy? No, but he's . . . He's authority. Here you take the information. Why did you believe the boy? No, he wasn't here. He just told me last night. I asked him. Then how did you believe that boy? Five hundred. I was very surprised myself. I know that so many people come, even in ordinary years. They were sitting everywhere, even on the balconies and in the scaffolding. They were everywhere. It was very crowded. The press and the television people came? Every year the television comes. They televised this? The Film News. I was surprised when I heard five hundred—they boycotted or what? For the abhiṣeka ceremony, that lasted about an hour, up till one o'clock, and everyone remained. There were thousands of people. They were just everywhere around. I will give you one śālagrāma-śilā. So as it is being worshiped in Māyāpur, it should be worshiped in Bombay also. You want to start it now, or in the new temple? No, now. Śālagrāma-śilā . It is not difficult. You have seen śālagrāma-śilā ? I have seen. So you'll take it and . . . I'm going back tomorrow night. So you can take it. So what other news? What other news, Prabhupāda? Well, now the festival is over, all the holidays are gone, so there's a big crew of people working now. It goes very fast. That's nice. And we're putting in the walls of your room. We have started . . . What is the length and breadth of my room? Well, it has different shapes. It's difficult to say. But the main room, the sitting room, is about, altogether, about 900 square foot. (loud cracking sound) Oh, this business is going on. Mahāṁśa went down and stopped it. Everyone can go, but the business will go on. So that is your sitting room. Then you have a bedroom. What is the sitting room? That is about 900, no 850 square foot. Eight hundred means length and breadth? I'll have to think. Because it consists of three rooms. So people were enthusiastic to come to our festival? Oh, yes. Very much. That is wanted. I mean, this place, when it is finished, it will be the most popular temple in Bombay. They have done. It's the biggest. It's already the biggest. So this is the building (unfolding plans), and these three rooms—this is 32 by 32—is your sitting room, where you can receive people. Then here is your bedroom, and here is the secretary room, here is kitchen, and here is servant room. So personally you have this, four rooms. What are these? This is the elevator. Oh. This is elevator. Then this is the entry where the people can wait in case many people are there. Here's the secretary. This is the kitchen and . . . Bathroom? That is . . . that is . . . like those things come out here. That is all connected with the room. So your bedroom, you have one toilet here and one shower here, each side. That's good. This is very nice, quite big. Then on the roof you have practically the whole roof, plus a room in the middle. Here is a room on the roof, the next slide, room here, and then you have just a nice terrace and very nice breeze. All sides open. *Yes, this is open. Well, we have arches here, just arches, for the . . . now we are finishing for the temple the second*-floor slab. That should be finished at the end of the month, and then one more month, the main slab of the darśana-maṇḍapa , and then we start towers, which we already started now precasting. We have rings. We make rings which we put up later, one by one. Oh, it is by ring. Yes, we make rings out of concrete, and then we . . . with a rod we keep holes in it, and then we just put them on top and it's . . . because for Māyāpur, we get into Māyāpur, we're trying it out if that is possible to do that there, because there are so many domes. So this system is very practical because you can cast at site, and then with a crane you bring it up and then it's fixed. Because this short ring, to make a tower on top of a building is very troublesome. This ring, concrete ring? Yes, concrete. Reinforced. Most of the rings are one foot and some, when it is straight, you make two feet. It depends. Then all the guest rooms we have marble on the floor, because that is very much liked in Bombay especially, to have marble. The halls, they are kota stone. So there is proposal to provide a bank? Yes. I have the area already marked out. There's about four or five banks that are very interested. Which bank are interested? The Indian Overseas Bank. That is the bank most interested at the time now. Then the State Bank of India. State Bank of India. That is better. That is better. Then the Syndicate Bank and the . . . So the charges will be four rupees. Four or four and a half. Yes. So best. Whoever gives the best. Yeah. And then one year in advance payment? Yes, if we get from . . . Of course, the location is excellent. It is . . . this is . . . there's two towers, and here is the road. Here is that, our road, going to our land in the back. Here is the main entry. Here is the temple in the back. So these two on the ground floor are meant for bank. So people can come right from here, and here is an entry. So place is the best for the bank. So they all want that place. So you think State Bank of India is the best? No, as you think. I don't know very much, but Gopāla said that the Indian Overseas Bank is an upcoming bank as well as Syndicate Bank, so they may be more eager for this. Syndicate Bank is not very . . . I also think to have a big bank is better. Big bank is better. And who pays the best price. The best. And also the facilities. Now, in the floor we start tiling, the basement floor . . . under the Deities there we have a basement. So there we have started the flooring, tiling, and now we have decided on all the other parts of the building, for the stone. So they promised, they say they guarantee, that at the end of this year the building—that means the guesthouse—will be completed. And of course, that includes the temple. The only thing which will definitely go on is the marble work, the carving. That is a very big job. But that we can always continue. That is mainly outside work, finishing. So that we get the inside ready for the opening. ISKCON Juhu? That is sufficient address? *Well, this was hand*-delivered. It would be nice if . . . I think now it is sufficient. Many letters come like that now. No, we are famous now, Juhu. But your official letters, the name of the street is called Nyer Road. Hmm? The name of the street is called A. B. Nyer Road. I never knew that. I thought it was the road in the back. No, they said Gandhi . . . Juhu Road? No. Now on the latest letter that I got, I think, from the government it was written A. B. Nyer Road. Maybe it was an old letter, I don't know. When we submitted the new plans for the gurukula building, there was a letter I had to sign about the work, that we have given that to the architect, an official letter so that we can get the permission. And it was written that the plot was on the A. B. Nyer Road, our land. So I inquired, and they said, "Yes, that's the name of that road." Is there any signboard, A. B. Nyer Road? No. Then? That is only in the back near that new hotel, that Holiday Inn Hotel. This one portion says A. B. Nyer Road. So that road goes like this—here is the Juhu Market, and the road goes . . . No, we go on as Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. Yes, that is . . . you don't have to say the road. Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. *Yes. Everyone knows. It's no problem. Now, the altar of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, I sent you a picture that showed four columns—one here, one here, one here, and then the top. And here is Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, and here is Lalitā*-Viśākhā. Those columns here, they're not in the front but they're in the back only. In front it is open. Open. That's nice. So then that is all right to use that one? Yes. Because we need more breadth, this is different size. So that work has been started also. And it will be covered in silk. You have seen this temple? I have not gone around, but it looks very nice. It is after your design. Yes. But I haven't been in Hyderabad for at least eight months. They have done nice. Yes. Mahāṁśa Swami has done very nice. There's many good workers also in the south of India. We had a lot of difficulty in getting those men from Vṛndāvana sent to America for Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Is he anxious to get them? Well, simply because they didn't speak English they delayed so much. Now, Kīrtanānanda did not show any anxiety for that. He did not show any anxiety like that, he requires that. So why it is? Well, at that time they wanted. That time wanted? That is finished now. Don't bother. All right. Because I spent a lot of time in trying to arrange that. That was not successful. That's all right. No. That work is going nice also, isn't it, flooring especially, the marble work. Marble. In New Vrindavan. Yes. Let them do in their own way. They practically do everything themselves. Ah, yes. That is their greatness. Yes. Their men are being trained up. That is actually the best. Yes. They will be engaged always like that. *They have got marble*-polishing machine. Yes. Last night I spoke with Jayapatākā Mahārāja, and he says that the land requisition will be in about two months or something. So whether we should go ahead with trying to purchase land before, or wait till . . .? Purchase land? Well, that particular area where the main temple will come, we need about . . . So let us wait. Let us wait. So can I start in the meantime to develop the plans? Yes. To contact engineers and everything? Now, if I have to pay some money for that type of work, do I take it from the Bombay . . .? It is not much, but some money is there, some expense is there. So . . . (break) . . . immediately. You have waited. Why not wait till the researching is there? I have some people, they do practically things for free. They work on it. But they only do that because they know in the future we're going to do it. So if there is too much delay, they may lose faith. *Delay? But that's a fact. Unless government gives us land . . . (break) . . . but we . . . we are not Kṛṣṇa. But if we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious strong, then our position is strong. If there is slackness, then they will come to kill us. That we have to see. Āpani ācari' prabhu jīve śikhāilā . Our behavior should be very clear. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." Then it will be . . . this Aghāsura, Bakāsura will come and . . . in the beginning there was Aghāsura, Pūtanā. That Devānanda, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Film," he wanted to do some harm. And he is gone, finished. Nobody talks of Devānanda. They talk of our movement. So if you remain strong in your spiritual activities, these Aghāsura, Bakāsura will come, go. But we should take precaution and counteract to reduce them. Real strength will remain from Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma's strength. Balarāma. Balarāma means strength. Nāyam ātmā bala hīna na labhyaḥ. If you are not supported by Balarāma, then it is not possible. So we have got our Balarāma, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple. Now in Europe we have got Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. In France. Yes. Which place? Outside? The farm? Very nice. Exactly like Vṛndāvana, I heard. The Deities are exactly . . . *Nitāi*-Gaura and Balarāma. Brajendra-nandana jei kṛṣṇa, śaci-suta haila sei : "He is now Śacī-suta." Balarāma haila nitāi : "And Balarāma has become Nitāi." That's all. These two brothers. And devotees are very nice. So if our devotees remain . . . two hundred devotees there are. Yes. And they are taking prasāda on the open lawn. Very nice. Presently they are growing vegetables sufficient for their consumption and for the Paris temple. Fresh, nice vegetables. Flowers. Grains also they have got—barley and wheat. Milk also. Their own cows. Cows. Oh, yes. So if there is milk, there is food grain, there is vegetable, so what do you want more? Enough we can grow. They have got two hundred acres of land. Some portion of the land they are utilizing. That is becoming sufficient for them. And if they grow the whole land, they can make good trade. Just like in Philadelphia they are producing so much milk, they are selling outside fifteen hundred dollars per month. Fifteen hundred dollars, how much it is? Fourteen thousand. Twelve thousand. That is their income. The Philadelphia they have organized very nice. Port Royal farm. Very nice. And this Paramānanda, he is expert. He's very expert. He was in New Vrindavan before. Yes. So he could not keep in line with Kīrtanānanda. (laughs) I thought he was in New York farm. That is the New York farm. That is. It's in Philadelphia. Yes, I heard it is very good there. His wife is . . . they are making . . . Satyabhāmā. . . . cāpāṭis . When she brought, it was so thick. And "How shall I eat this?" But when I ate, it was so nice. Soft and sweet. I ate everything. Devotees have brought from the farm. Maybe she should come here to cook for you. *Oh, very good. No, they are very happy. All the boys and girls are very happy. Sit down. So that I want, that live happily and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want unnecessary luxury. Anartha. Anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Anartha should be reduced, nil; bare necessities. Anartha . . . just like this material things we require for preaching. That is not anartha . But when it is used for sense gratification, that is anartha . Anything for sense gratification, that is unwanted, anartha . And anything for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is spiritual. Anukūla . Anukūla. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). So whatever we are using, that is not material. It is all spiritual. Hmm. So what are these? So . . . Mahabaleshwar . . . Yes. I've cancelled it. I'll send tickets for . . . So two strong opinion was against. One Kanadaji, another Gargamuni. Another? Gargamuni. He was also not in favor, going to hill station. Okay, that's fine. When you come to Bombay in October, you can go, October or November, whenever you come . . . Hill station, I have also heard—I do not know—that during rainy season they get some diarrhea. Get some what? Get some diarrhea. And that hill diarrhea is not . . . Good. Not at all. Best season for hill station is May and June. May and June. That's when most people go—in the summer months. Very nice. Very warm. Summer period. Most people in the rainy season, they all leave that place, many houses. They close it all. Yes. In Simla and Nainital everyone leaves after June. But after the rainy season? Yes, in October again they go back. Rainy season is bad on the whole. That place, yeah. But the rest of the year it's excellent. That all right. But I've told that Mr. Malhotra to come and see you here . . . Yes. *. . . directly, because he wants to meet you. Actually he wasn't . . . after meeting you, he'll decide. Thirty*-five acres of land. It has a dak bungalow. Yes, we went there about one and a half months ago. We saw the place. So can you . . . you have . . . give me a site plans. Yes, I . . . approximately? Yes. You want me to show you? No, you can . . . not immediately . . . you can give me very nice, where is the bungalow, where is the . . . you can give. But these two people, they are very much in favor. They were all the time, when we went . . . No, if it is nice, we shall take it. Why not? It is beautiful. It's very beautiful. It's near Bombay. So if you can go and come . . . Bombay is going to be so big when the building is completed. It's on a hill, but the land is flat so you can cultivate it. So it is very good. It's excellent. And from there you can see down. You look down, and then you see the river Kṛṣṇā. It is a plateau. Yes, a plateau. See the river Kṛṣṇā. Yes, you can just see the river flowing down there. Oh, it is beautiful spot. It's very, very beautiful. And he wants us to develop it. Oh, we develop. We shall spend lakhs , two lakhs , three lakhs , as you . . . So he wants us to give him a proposal . . . And it has been . . . they have been doing agriculture before, there, so it's in very good state. You don't have to do much. Oh, then we shall take it. What is use of going? He has seen already. Take it. No, no, he wanted you to see it. That was . . . That, we shall go in October. We shall go there. So when Saurabha has seen, that is my seeing. You give me a site plan. And we shall take it and develop it. So many of our men get ill health. They can go there . . . Oh, yes. . . . and then come back. Then we don't have to send them to America . . . No. . . . because of being sick. No. We need a place—health. Prabhupāda wrote . . . he wrote that to me last year, to get a hill station . . . Yes. The Mahabaleshwar is well known. Yes. They have nice cows there, nice vegetables. Oh, yes. They has that. Everywhere, that . . . what is the name of that root we ate on ekādaśī ? So take it and develop according to your plan. Develop. It's a place known for strawberry cultivation. What do you think will be the expenditure to develop it into a nice place? For agriculture I can't say, but according to me, it is all level. They have leveled everything out. It's like a terrace. It's just . . . we can start growing anything there—potatoes, grains, strawberries, fruits. Now for residential quarter there is already bungalow. There is a bungalow with four big . . . it's a big bungalow. And stone is available there, just like here in Hyderabad. At the back of the land it's like a rocky area. One small portion that is so much stone there available, so you can just build from the stone anything. The land can be used for the cement, instead of cement. So very cheap you can build there. One lakh rupees? No. Well, it depends how many devotees are going to stay. But for a farm, I think . . . Say ten rooms. Ten rooms. The gṛhasthas from Bombay could be moved over there. No, gṛhasthas can go to the farm. Yes, they can go from Bombay to there. They can cultivate our farm. For sixty thousand rupees we can build sufficient accommodation, and then the rest we need for . . . So we can spend up to one lakh and make more rooms. Yes. And when you come there, the house is sufficient for you to stay. It's very nice. Big rooms. So we shall go in October. October. There's three big wells available. Three big wells are there. Wells? Very good. Three. And according to me, these people, they also want to invest money in that project. The people themselves, they want to give also money for developing. No? No. They want to turn it over to us . . . And that do. . . . if we give them guarantee that we will develop it. No, no, we shall do. You guarantee that. The decision is made. So you can take . . . (indistinct) And from what I've heard, this Malhotra is a very—Girirāja told me—very, very nice man. Yes. He is not going to . . . he's a very, very rich man himself, so he's not really trying to cheat us or anything. That decision is made. It is a very well known place, Mahabaleshwar. Yes, Mahabaleshwar. Just on the other side of the plateau you have that RMA, ARA? No. That institute . . . (indistinct discussion) Aurobindo? No. I think Mahabaleshwar is also the summer capital of Mahara . . . all the government ministers have their meetings there. And this Bhogilal Patel's son, he was saying that he knows all the big people there, so can introduce me to the chairman of the local municipality . . . So we must have a big temple there. MRA? It's a moral institute. It's very big. MRA? MRA, yes. Moral . . .? *Moral Re*-armament. Yes. It's just on the other side. So it is still existing? Oh, yes. The building is excellent, but nothing is going on. Only twice a year they have a meeting. But it's very well built. Their propaganda is that, "You . . ." Christian program. "You do whatever you like. You simply admit. Confession. Then you'll be . . ." Atone. This is morality. "You commit immorality as much as you like, you simply admit it. Then it's right." This is their . . . they do not want to stop immorality. "You do, and don't hide it—you admit." But persons are so shameless that they will continually do, and they have no shamefulness to hide even. That is the Christian theory that, "Our religion is so . . . we may do. We are unable to remain without any sin. Christ will excuse us." Is it not? This is going on. They're also criticized a lot there. They have been criticized a lot there locally. People, they think they are CIA. Oh. Us? No. The MRA. Because they have big meetings twice a year only, and they just . . . The MRA, they are Americans? Yes. Most are Europeans, Americans. Most. This movement was started by President Eisenhower with the help of a Christian priest. Now the son of Gandhi, he is the main president . . . Who? The son of Mahatma Gandhi. Shri Ramdas Gandhi? He's the head man of that institute there. And then some very big European industrialists, they are also involved. They've spent two crores of rupees on that complex. It's very well maintained also. I went into the building. It's excellent. But there is nobody. Eh? Nobody. (break) (loud kīrtana in background) So he can immediately come. The door is ready, so when you go for a bath . . . No, he can come. Now he can come? Yes. Mahāṁśa Swami is . . . (indistinct) He's very sincere. And everyone likes him. Yes. He's very popular with the Life Members. He has no enemy. Nobody has complained against him. *He's very even*-tempered. (chuckles) Neither he has complained against anybody. He does not complain, and nobody complains against him. That means . . . (indistinct) . . . his mother was very much sorry. Now she is very happy. He joined in the West? He is Parsi. He's not Indian. No, he is Indian. India, there is Parsi community. Indian Parsi means that originally they come from Iran. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. They are Iranian. But on account of Muhammadans forcibly standing within the way . . . Aurangzeb came. Muhammadans, they came. They fled from Iran sixth century, and took shelter in the western part of India. They took shelter in Gujarat. Persia . . . I think Iran was known as Persia. Yes. At least that area, anyway. Therefore they are known as Parsi. In their ritualistic ceremonies some . . . (indistinct) . . . married. Yes. I saw all the women, they keep themselves covered and everything. Sārī ? Most of them were wearing trousers. No. Parsis are well known for sārīs . In Iran, though, I saw most of the women wear . . . under those black veils they were actually wearing trousers. Not wearing sārīs ? (long pause) We have no problems except this immigration. Yes. That's the main thing. Otherwise we have . . . (indistinct) By the time they've finished all their investigations, they'll . . . eventually they'll have to let us come. At least maybe in Calcutta it will be easier. In Calcutta, with the authorities there, if we get this . . . if we start building Māyāpur, then they'll be a lot more lenient about letting us stay. That is already . . . Yes. They've taken the best area of . . . (indistinct) I think this leg swelling is gone. Yes. It only came when we were in Iran because of the altitude. Then, as soon as we left, it went away again. That doctor in New York, he said it was because when your blood pressure goes up, then it's difficult for the heart to pump. So then fluid forms in the leg because of the bad blood circulation. That was his diagnosis. Yes. So as soon as we came . . . like in New Vrindavan, a little bit high, then again it changes over. But then, as soon as we left, then it stopped again. Then this Mahabaleshwar will not be . . . No. If it's very high, the altitude will not be so good. As soon as we arrived in Iran, immediately the next day the swelling was there. I don't know how high this will be, but New Vrindavan is not so high. Oh, yes? I think someone said about 1200 feet. Not very much. But that may be because the atmosphere in the hills is a little rarified as well. I had vision of . . . (indistinct) . . . more than going to the hill . . . (indistinct) . . . it is higher than sea level anyway. Therefore this northern portion of India is called upper. Where the mountains begin. It is very higher than the sea level. It is called upper because it is much higher, very high from the ocean. But I was . . . Vṛndāvana is also that part of . . . (indistinct) . . . only Bengal is not upper. Yes, it's low. It is near the sea, so . . . (end) Conversation -- August 20, 1976, Hyderabad . . . disorder. (break) . . . everything to Bombay. Yes. It is very convenient. Yes. That, that is better. I moved everything to Bombay. The main distribution should be from Bombay. Yes. Now because this Usha Printers is much bigger also, and we're getting better quality. Saurabha, what news, Bombay? The festival was a very great success. We counted approximately, for the last two days, twenty thousand people must have come. Somebody said five hundred. Somebody came and said that six hundred people Janmāṣṭamī night. It was packed. They were . . . I was surprised. I was surprised myself that six hundred people on Janmāṣṭamī night. They were everywhere. Who is that nonsense who came and said this? Who is that rascal? *He's a poor thirteen*-year-old boy. Oh. You believed the boy? No, but he's . . . He's authority. Here you take the information. Why did you believe the boy? No, he wasn't here. He just told me last night. I asked him. Then how did you believe that boy? Five hundred. I was very surprised myself. I know that so many people come, even in ordinary years. They were sitting everywhere, even on the balconies and in the scaffolding. They were everywhere. It was very crowded. The press and the television people came? Every year the television comes. They televised this? The Film News. I was surprised when I heard five hundred—they boycotted or what? For the abhiṣeka ceremony, that lasted about an hour, up till one o'clock, and everyone remained. There were thousands of people. They were just everywhere around. I will give you one śālagrāma-śilā. So as it is being worshiped in Māyāpur, it should be worshiped in Bombay also. You want to start it now, or in the new temple? No, now. Śālagrāma-śilā . It is not difficult. You have seen śālagrāma-śilā ? I have seen. So you'll take it and . . . I'm going back tomorrow night. So you can take it. So what other news? What other news, Prabhupāda? Well, now the festival is over, all the holidays are gone, so there's a big crew of people working now. It goes very fast. That's nice. And we're putting in the walls of your room. We have started . . . What is the length and breadth of my room? Well, it has different shapes. It's difficult to say. But the main room, the sitting room, is about, altogether, about 900 square foot. (loud cracking sound) Oh, this business is going on. Mahāṁśa went down and stopped it. Everyone can go, but the business will go on. So that is your sitting room. Then you have a bedroom. What is the sitting room? That is about 900, no 850 square foot. Eight hundred means length and breadth? I'll have to think. Because it consists of three rooms. So people were enthusiastic to come to our festival? Oh, yes. Very much. That is wanted. I mean, this place, when it is finished, it will be the most popular temple in Bombay. They have done. It's the biggest. It's already the biggest. So this is the building (unfolding plans), and these three rooms—this is 32 by 32—is your sitting room, where you can receive people. Then here is your bedroom, and here is the secretary room, here is kitchen, and here is servant room. So personally you have this, four rooms. What are these? This is the elevator. Oh. This is elevator. Then this is the entry where the people can wait in case many people are there. Here's the secretary. This is the kitchen and . . . Bathroom? That is . . . that is . . . like those things come out here. That is all connected with the room. So your bedroom, you have one toilet here and one shower here, each side. That's good. This is very nice, quite big. Then on the roof you have practically the whole roof, plus a room in the middle. Here is a room on the roof, the next slide, room here, and then you have just a nice terrace and very nice breeze. All sides open. *Yes, this is open. Well, we have arches here, just arches, for the . . . now we are finishing for the temple the second*-floor slab. That should be finished at the end of the month, and then one more month, the main slab of the darśana-maṇḍapa , and then we start towers, which we already started now precasting. We have rings. We make rings which we put up later, one by one. Oh, it is by ring. Yes, we make rings out of concrete, and then we . . . with a rod we keep holes in it, and then we just put them on top and it's . . . because for Māyāpur, we get into Māyāpur, we're trying it out if that is possible to do that there, because there are so many domes. So this system is very practical because you can cast at site, and then with a crane you bring it up and then it's fixed. Because this short ring, to make a tower on top of a building is very troublesome. This ring, concrete ring? Yes, concrete. Reinforced. Most of the rings are one foot and some, when it is straight, you make two feet. It depends. Then all the guest rooms we have marble on the floor, because that is very much liked in Bombay especially, to have marble. The halls, they are kota stone. So there is proposal to provide a bank? Yes. I have the area already marked out. There's about four or five banks that are very interested. Which bank are interested? The Indian Overseas Bank. That is the bank most interested at the time now. Then the State Bank of India. State Bank of India. That is better. That is better. Then the Syndicate Bank and the . . . So the charges will be four rupees. Four or four and a half. Yes. So best. Whoever gives the best. Yeah. And then one year in advance payment? Yes, if we get from . . . Of course, the location is excellent. It is . . . this is . . . there's two towers, and here is the road. Here is that, our road, going to our land in the back. Here is the main entry. Here is the temple in the back. So these two on the ground floor are meant for bank. So people can come right from here, and here is an entry. So place is the best for the bank. So they all want that place. So you think State Bank of India is the best? No, as you think. I don't know very much, but Gopāla said that the Indian Overseas Bank is an upcoming bank as well as Syndicate Bank, so they may be more eager for this. Syndicate Bank is not very . . . I also think to have a big bank is better. Big bank is better. And who pays the best price. The best. And also the facilities. Now, in the floor we start tiling, the basement floor . . . under the Deities there we have a basement. So there we have started the flooring, tiling, and now we have decided on all the other parts of the building, for the stone. So they promised, they say they guarantee, that at the end of this year the building—that means the guesthouse—will be completed. And of course, that includes the temple. The only thing which will definitely go on is the marble work, the carving. That is a very big job. But that we can always continue. That is mainly outside work, finishing. So that we get the inside ready for the opening. ISKCON Juhu? That is sufficient address? *Well, this was hand*-delivered. It would be nice if . . . I think now it is sufficient. Many letters come like that now. No, we are famous now, Juhu. But your official letters, the name of the street is called Nyer Road. Hmm? The name of the street is called A. B. Nyer Road. I never knew that. I thought it was the road in the back. No, they said Gandhi . . . Juhu Road? No. Now on the latest letter that I got, I think, from the government it was written A. B. Nyer Road. Maybe it was an old letter, I don't know. When we submitted the new plans for the gurukula building, there was a letter I had to sign about the work, that we have given that to the architect, an official letter so that we can get the permission. And it was written that the plot was on the A. B. Nyer Road, our land. So I inquired, and they said, "Yes, that's the name of that road." Is there any signboard, A. B. Nyer Road? No. Then? That is only in the back near that new hotel, that Holiday Inn Hotel. This one portion says A. B. Nyer Road. So that road goes like this—here is the Juhu Market, and the road goes . . . No, we go on as Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. Yes, that is . . . you don't have to say the road. Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. *Yes. Everyone knows. It's no problem. Now, the altar of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, I sent you a picture that showed four columns—one here, one here, one here, and then the top. And here is Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, and here is Lalitā*-Viśākhā. Those columns here, they're not in the front but they're in the back only. In front it is open. Open. That's nice. So then that is all right to use that one? Yes. Because we need more breadth, this is different size. So that work has been started also. And it will be covered in silk. You have seen this temple? I have not gone around, but it looks very nice. It is after your design. Yes. But I haven't been in Hyderabad for at least eight months. They have done nice. Yes. Mahāṁśa Swami has done very nice. There's many good workers also in the south of India. We had a lot of difficulty in getting those men from Vṛndāvana sent to America for Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Is he anxious to get them? Well, simply because they didn't speak English they delayed so much. Now, Kīrtanānanda did not show any anxiety for that. He did not show any anxiety like that, he requires that. So why it is? Well, at that time they wanted. That time wanted? That is finished now. Don't bother. All right. Because I spent a lot of time in trying to arrange that. That was not successful. That's all right. No. That work is going nice also, isn't it, flooring especially, the marble work. Marble. In New Vrindavan. Yes. Let them do in their own way. They practically do everything themselves. Ah, yes. That is their greatness. Yes. Their men are being trained up. That is actually the best. Yes. They will be engaged always like that. *They have got marble*-polishing machine. Yes. Last night I spoke with Jayapatākā Mahārāja, and he says that the land requisition will be in about two months or something. So whether we should go ahead with trying to purchase land before, or wait till . . .? Purchase land? Well, that particular area where the main temple will come, we need about . . . So let us wait. Let us wait. So can I start in the meantime to develop the plans? Yes. To contact engineers and everything? Now, if I have to pay some money for that type of work, do I take it from the Bombay . . .? It is not much, but some money is there, some expense is there. So . . . (break) . . . immediately. You have waited. Why not wait till the researching is there? I have some people, they do practically things for free. They work on it. But they only do that because they know in the future we're going to do it. So if there is too much delay, they may lose faith. *Delay? But that's a fact. Unless government gives us land . . . (break) . . . but we . . . we are not Kṛṣṇa. But if we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious strong, then our position is strong. If there is slackness, then they will come to kill us. That we have to see. Āpani ācari' prabhu jīve śikhāilā . Our behavior should be very clear. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." Then it will be . . . this Aghāsura, Bakāsura will come and . . . in the beginning there was Aghāsura, Pūtanā. That Devānanda, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Film," he wanted to do some harm. And he is gone, finished. Nobody talks of Devānanda. They talk of our movement. So if you remain strong in your spiritual activities, these Aghāsura, Bakāsura will come, go. But we should take precaution and counteract to reduce them. Real strength will remain from Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma's strength. Balarāma. Balarāma means strength. Nāyam ātmā bala hīna na labhyaḥ. If you are not supported by Balarāma, then it is not possible. So we have got our Balarāma, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple. Now in Europe we have got Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. In France. Yes. Which place? Outside? The farm? Very nice. Exactly like Vṛndāvana, I heard. The Deities are exactly . . . *Nitāi*-Gaura and Balarāma. Brajendra-nandana jei kṛṣṇa, śaci-suta haila sei : "He is now Śacī-suta." Balarāma haila nitāi : "And Balarāma has become Nitāi." That's all. These two brothers. And devotees are very nice. So if our devotees remain . . . two hundred devotees there are. Yes. And they are taking prasāda on the open lawn. Very nice. Presently they are growing vegetables sufficient for their consumption and for the Paris temple. Fresh, nice vegetables. Flowers. Grains also they have got—barley and wheat. Milk also. Their own cows. Cows. Oh, yes. So if there is milk, there is food grain, there is vegetable, so what do you want more? Enough we can grow. They have got two hundred acres of land. Some portion of the land they are utilizing. That is becoming sufficient for them. And if they grow the whole land, they can make good trade. Just like in Philadelphia they are producing so much milk, they are selling outside fifteen hundred dollars per month. Fifteen hundred dollars, how much it is? Fourteen thousand. Twelve thousand. That is their income. The Philadelphia they have organized very nice. Port Royal farm. Very nice. And this Paramānanda, he is expert. He's very expert. He was in New Vrindavan before. Yes. So he could not keep in line with Kīrtanānanda. (laughs) I thought he was in New York farm. That is the New York farm. That is. It's in Philadelphia. Yes, I heard it is very good there. His wife is . . . they are making . . . Satyabhāmā. . . . cāpāṭis . When she brought, it was so thick. And "How shall I eat this?" But when I ate, it was so nice. Soft and sweet. I ate everything. Devotees have brought from the farm. Maybe she should come here to cook for you. *Oh, very good. No, they are very happy. All the boys and girls are very happy. Sit down. So that I want, that live happily and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want unnecessary luxury. Anartha. Anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Anartha should be reduced, nil; bare necessities. Anartha . . . just like this material things we require for preaching. That is not anartha . But when it is used for sense gratification, that is anartha . Anything for sense gratification, that is unwanted, anartha . And anything for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is spiritual. Anukūla . Anukūla. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). So whatever we are using, that is not material. It is all spiritual. Hmm. So what are these? So . . . Mahabaleshwar . . . Yes. I've cancelled it. I'll send tickets for . . . So two strong opinion was against. One Kanadaji, another Gargamuni. Another? Gargamuni. He was also not in favor, going to hill station. Okay, that's fine. When you come to Bombay in October, you can go, October or November, whenever you come . . . Hill station, I have also heard—I do not know—that during rainy season they get some diarrhea. Get some what? Get some diarrhea. And that hill diarrhea is not . . . Good. Not at all. Best season for hill station is May and June. May and June. That's when most people go—in the summer months. Very nice. Very warm. Summer period. Most people in the rainy season, they all leave that place, many houses. They close it all. Yes. In Simla and Nainital everyone leaves after June. But after the rainy season? Yes, in October again they go back. Rainy season is bad on the whole. That place, yeah. But the rest of the year it's excellent. That all right. But I've told that Mr. Malhotra to come and see you here . . . Yes. *. . . directly, because he wants to meet you. Actually he wasn't . . . after meeting you, he'll decide. Thirty*-five acres of land. It has a dak bungalow. Yes, we went there about one and a half months ago. We saw the place. So can you . . . you have . . . give me a site plans. Yes, I . . . approximately? Yes. You want me to show you? No, you can . . . not immediately . . . you can give me very nice, where is the bungalow, where is the . . . you can give. But these two people, they are very much in favor. They were all the time, when we went . . . No, if it is nice, we shall take it. Why not? It is beautiful. It's very beautiful. It's near Bombay. So if you can go and come . . . Bombay is going to be so big when the building is completed. It's on a hill, but the land is flat so you can cultivate it. So it is very good. It's excellent. And from there you can see down. You look down, and then you see the river Kṛṣṇā. It is a plateau. Yes, a plateau. See the river Kṛṣṇā. Yes, you can just see the river flowing down there. Oh, it is beautiful spot. It's very, very beautiful. And he wants us to develop it. Oh, we develop. We shall spend lakhs , two lakhs , three lakhs , as you . . . So he wants us to give him a proposal . . . And it has been . . . they have been doing agriculture before, there, so it's in very good state. You don't have to do much. Oh, then we shall take it. What is use of going? He has seen already. Take it. No, no, he wanted you to see it. That was . . . That, we shall go in October. We shall go there. So when Saurabha has seen, that is my seeing. You give me a site plan. And we shall take it and develop it. So many of our men get ill health. They can go there . . . Oh, yes. . . . and then come back. Then we don't have to send them to America . . . No. . . . because of being sick. No. We need a place—health. Prabhupāda wrote . . . he wrote that to me last year, to get a hill station . . . Yes. The Mahabaleshwar is well known. Yes. They have nice cows there, nice vegetables. Oh, yes. They has that. Everywhere, that . . . what is the name of that root we ate on ekādaśī ? So take it and develop according to your plan. Develop. It's a place known for strawberry cultivation. What do you think will be the expenditure to develop it into a nice place? For agriculture I can't say, but according to me, it is all level. They have leveled everything out. It's like a terrace. It's just . . . we can start growing anything there—potatoes, grains, strawberries, fruits. Now for residential quarter there is already bungalow. There is a bungalow with four big . . . it's a big bungalow. And stone is available there, just like here in Hyderabad. At the back of the land it's like a rocky area. One small portion that is so much stone there available, so you can just build from the stone anything. The land can be used for the cement, instead of cement. So very cheap you can build there. One lakh rupees? No. Well, it depends how many devotees are going to stay. But for a farm, I think . . . Say ten rooms. Ten rooms. The gṛhasthas from Bombay could be moved over there. No, gṛhasthas can go to the farm. Yes, they can go from Bombay to there. They can cultivate our farm. For sixty thousand rupees we can build sufficient accommodation, and then the rest we need for . . . So we can spend up to one lakh and make more rooms. Yes. And when you come there, the house is sufficient for you to stay. It's very nice. Big rooms. So we shall go in October. October. There's three big wells available. Three big wells are there. Wells? Very good. Three. And according to me, these people, they also want to invest money in that project. The people themselves, they want to give also money for developing. No? No. They want to turn it over to us . . . And that do. . . . if we give them guarantee that we will develop it. No, no, we shall do. You guarantee that. The decision is made. So you can take . . . (indistinct) And from what I've heard, this Malhotra is a very—Girirāja told me—very, very nice man. Yes. He is not going to . . . he's a very, very rich man himself, so he's not really trying to cheat us or anything. That decision is made. It is a very well known place, Mahabaleshwar. Yes, Mahabaleshwar. Just on the other side of the plateau you have that RMA, ARA? No. That institute . . . (indistinct discussion) Aurobindo? No. I think Mahabaleshwar is also the summer capital of Mahara . . . all the government ministers have their meetings there. And this Bhogilal Patel's son, he was saying that he knows all the big people there, so can introduce me to the chairman of the local municipality . . . So we must have a big temple there. MRA? It's a moral institute. It's very big. MRA? MRA, yes. Moral . . .? *Moral Re*-armament. Yes. It's just on the other side. So it is still existing? Oh, yes. The building is excellent, but nothing is going on. Only twice a year they have a meeting. But it's very well built. Their propaganda is that, "You . . ." Christian program. "You do whatever you like. You simply admit. Confession. Then you'll be . . ." Atone. This is morality. "You commit immorality as much as you like, you simply admit it. Then it's right." This is their . . . they do not want to stop immorality. "You do, and don't hide it—you admit." But persons are so shameless that they will continually do, and they have no shamefulness to hide even. That is the Christian theory that, "Our religion is so . . . we may do. We are unable to remain without any sin. Christ will excuse us." Is it not? This is going on. They're also criticized a lot there. They have been criticized a lot there locally. People, they think they are CIA. Oh. Us? No. The MRA. Because they have big meetings twice a year only, and they just . . . The MRA, they are Americans? Yes. Most are Europeans, Americans. Most. This movement was started by President Eisenhower with the help of a Christian priest. Now the son of Gandhi, he is the main president . . . Who? The son of Mahatma Gandhi. Shri Ramdas Gandhi? He's the head man of that institute there. And then some very big European industrialists, they are also involved. They've spent two crores of rupees on that complex. It's very well maintained also. I went into the building. It's excellent. But there is nobody. Eh? Nobody. (break) (loud kīrtana in background) So he can immediately come. The door is ready, so when you go for a bath . . . No, he can come. Now he can come? Yes. Mahāṁśa Swami is . . . (indistinct) He's very sincere. And everyone likes him. Yes. He's very popular with the Life Members. He has no enemy. Nobody has complained against him. *He's very even*-tempered. (chuckles) Neither he has complained against anybody. He does not complain, and nobody complains against him. That means . . . (indistinct) . . . his mother was very much sorry. Now she is very happy. He joined in the West? He is Parsi. He's not Indian. No, he is Indian. India, there is Parsi community. Indian Parsi means that originally they come from Iran. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. They are Iranian. But on account of Muhammadans forcibly standing within the way . . . Aurangzeb came. Muhammadans, they came. They fled from Iran sixth century, and took shelter in the western part of India. They took shelter in Gujarat. Persia . . . I think Iran was known as Persia. Yes. At least that area, anyway. Therefore they are known as Parsi. In their ritualistic ceremonies some . . . (indistinct) . . . married. Yes. I saw all the women, they keep themselves covered and everything. Sārī ? Most of them were wearing trousers. No. Parsis are well known for sārīs . In Iran, though, I saw most of the women wear . . . under those black veils they were actually wearing trousers. Not wearing sārīs ? (long pause) We have no problems except this immigration. Yes. That's the main thing. Otherwise we have . . . (indistinct) By the time they've finished all their investigations, they'll . . . eventually they'll have to let us come. At least maybe in Calcutta it will be easier. In Calcutta, with the authorities there, if we get this . . . if we start building Māyāpur, then they'll be a lot more lenient about letting us stay. That is already . . . Yes. They've taken the best area of . . . (indistinct) I think this leg swelling is gone. Yes. It only came when we were in Iran because of the altitude. Then, as soon as we left, it went away again. That doctor in New York, he said it was because when your blood pressure goes up, then it's difficult for the heart to pump. So then fluid forms in the leg because of the bad blood circulation. That was his diagnosis. Yes. So as soon as we came . . . like in New Vrindavan, a little bit high, then again it changes over. But then, as soon as we left, then it stopped again. Then this Mahabaleshwar will not be . . . No. If it's very high, the altitude will not be so good. As soon as we arrived in Iran, immediately the next day the swelling was there. I don't know how high this will be, but New Vrindavan is not so high. Oh, yes? I think someone said about 1200 feet. Not very much. But that may be because the atmosphere in the hills is a little rarified as well. I had vision of . . . (indistinct) . . . more than going to the hill . . . (indistinct) . . . it is higher than sea level anyway. Therefore this northern portion of India is called upper. Where the mountains begin. It is very higher than the sea level. It is called upper because it is much higher, very high from the ocean. But I was . . . Vṛndāvana is also that part of . . . (indistinct) . . . only Bengal is not upper. Yes, it's low. It is near the sea, so . . . (end) Conversation A -- August 21, 1976, Hyderabad I was with him when he posted the letter. But where is that? I'll ask him when I see him. You have got any copy? No. I didn't keep a copy. When they submit? Quarterly? Yes. Part of the money is contribution for construction of my house. Ten thousand. Ten thousand dollars? Ten thousand dollars, I think. Jayatīrtha mentioned. I am writing one letter to the government that I work hard, I print my books and they are selling, and if I bring the money to construct temple, why people are envious? What is the wrong there? Rather, I should be encouraged that I am bringing so much money in India, foreign exchange, by my hard labor. So why they are envious? Why . . . I have sent this to the governor. To the governor? Governor, Mr. Chandra Reddy. "Why? Wherefrom they are getting money? Where? why?" That is my money by hard labor, that's all. Is it wrong if a man works hard and gets money in foreign country and bring in India? I think they cannot believe that a sādhu could have so much money from selling books. *That may be beyond their dream, but I am not so*-called sādhu . I am trying to execute the orders of my Guru Mahārāja, predecessor. I am not a so-called sādhu , taking a saffron robe, begging for fulfilling the belly. They have to accept you as an international leader. I must be international leader. Yes, they are surprised how . . . this is unique in the history, that a single person's books are sold in so many large quantities. I don't think any author has sold so many books. Huh? *In some of the American magazines they publish a best*-seller list of books, and the number of books we sell goes beyond the best-seller list. And especially philosophical and religious books. These people do not touch. (laughs) Untouchable. Has even Vivekananda has presented so many books? A small book, Thus spake . . . "Thus spake." (laughs) And what he will write? What does he know? Simply bluffers. Chaliats . Our Bon Mahārāja is also one of the chaliats . What is the English for chaliat ? Bluffers? Chaliat means he has no assets but he shows that he is very big. That is called chaliat . Bluffer. Bluffer? Our Tīrtha Mahārāja's Caitanya Research Institute. Here is an Indian Institute for . . . what is that? Bon Mahārāja's? Institute for Indian Culture and Philosophy. But where is your book? You have seen that Tīrtha Mahārāja's one book? The Vedānta as Caitanya Has Seen , like that. And he has given a picture of himself with effulgence on his head. You have seen that? No, I have not seen that one. In all the mandiras where his picture is there, they have all the ācāryas pictures, but only his picture has the effulgence. Such a rascal. He has given Prabhupāda's picture, no effulgence; his picture, effulgence. He's such a rascal. Publicly he's showing. But unfortunately that had to be painted in. He could not just show . . . There's no natural . . . Could not illuminate. Remain in darkness. Effulgence in darkness. And such a shameless man, he is giving effulgence in the picture. (break) . . . gradually we can see that this Society is replacing the Ramakrishna Mission there. Huh? We can see practically that this Society, your Society, is replacing this Ramakrishna Mission more and more. Why Ramakrishna Mission? We are far above the Ramakrishna Mission. Yes. As far as the people go. They are all saying "Hare Kṛṣṇa" and . . . they don't even mention . . . sometimes they ask us, "Do you know who Ramakrishna is?" And we say, "No, we have never heard of him." They go, "You have not heard of Ramakrishna?" We say: "No. We only know Prabhupāda and Lord Caitanya. Everybody knows that, and nobody knows who is Ramakrishna." They do not know what to say. *Then they don't know what to say. They say: "You mean you don't know that Chicago Address?" We say: "No. What? Oh, when Prabhupāda went for Ratha*-yātrā? Yes, that we know." That Chicago Address was the worst. He is defying, "Why you give credit to God?" This is the . . . we have seen that Chicago Address. Now they are eliminating. Most blasphemous. One Christian priest, he was surprised, "What kind of nonsense these Indians are . . ." He asked him, "How you are speaking in this way, 'Why you are giving credit to God?' " He said like that. "You are working, why you are giving credit to God?" This is Vivekananda's realization. And he created God. A illiterate priest, he become God. Because he said, "I am God." That is the proof. Because he said . . .? *"I am God. I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." Therefore his name is Ramakrishna. He was Gadadhar Chatterji, and he said to his disciple, Vivekananda, first*-class rogue that, "I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." So he took it. This is evidence. Because Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the Supreme." So he said: "I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." This is the evidence. What Kṛṣṇa can say, he can say also. This institution is the most harmful institution for Vedic culture. *At one town, Beturhari, that . . . it is called Nakashiparathana. That's about thirty miles north of Māyāpur. One day in advance they advertised that we were coming and we were having a public showing of the cinema and Nitāi*-Gaura ārati . And they had one maidan called Library Maidan. There was one, like, stage there. It is in West Bengal? West Bengal. That's in Nadia District. Just before Phulasi, south of Phulasi. And when we came there and I saw the police in the afternoon, we told them we were going to have a function. So they said that they would send a few policemen. They said that, "We will send some policemen for keeping the order." But that night so many people came . . . the space could only hold four thousand, but another two, three thousand people came, and they were turned away because of insufficient space. So they were standing on the wall and on the rooftops all around, and all you could see were people's heads, just like an ocean. The policemen, after it was over . . . when I chanted, I chanted, "Everyone please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And I chanted the full mantra three times. They chanted so loud that even two, three blocks away people thought that the heavens were shouting. It was like a thunder . . . Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt. And the policemen said that never—even the chief minister came here once—not even half so many people came, and that was announced for one week. This was announced for one day, and more people came than ever before. He said: "This really shows me that the people are hungry for spiritual answer. They have no one to lead them." And these leaders are simply envious, that's all. The only reason why they're not helping us is because they're envious. Because so many people are interested and no one is interested in them. Anyway, our Gītār Gān is selling. *Yes. When we stopped at Burdwan, in one place, one boy sold 198 Bhagavad*-gītās , Gītār Gān , without moving. So many Gītās . . . people were just crowding around taking Gītās so much that the local . . . there were some bookstores. They also came, and they said that "We cannot get wholesale? We have never seen such a book sell so well." Even people come to the temple in Calcutta, they want ten, fifteen copies. Village people. Poor people. They come and say: " Gītār Gān , where is that? I have heard." And they take ten or fifteen copies, they wrap it in their cloth and bring it to the village. It is becoming very popular. Wherever you go, "Where is this Gītār Gān ?" I went to Writers' Building, I had four or five copies with me. I didn't go for selling, I went to see ministers. But all the peons, they were buying the Gītār Gāns from me. I sold out. People were coming up with rupees saying: " Gītār Gān ." I didn't have any more. Out of their own accord they . . . No, they've heard of it. It's becoming famous. That's our inspiration, that if we can make Gītār Gān and Your Divine Grace famous all over Bengal, then we will feel that our mission . . . Yes, I could not write any . . . I wrote some Bengali book, that is now . . . it can be collected from Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha. I continually wrote one book, Bhagavāner Kathā. People are begging us for books in Bengali written by Your Divine Grace. We tell them that . . . (aside) There's no time. That Subhaga translated. But his translations are not so . . . No. There's always trouble with translation in local languages, Hindi or Gujarati. They do not know the philosophy. No. And they do the wrong words. *Now they have a . . . I put a two*-man team. A two- or three-man team. Subhaga, there's one boy Kiśora, and, what's his name, Tatpur. Between the three of them they check and recheck. Tatpur is educated? He's got a B.A. or something. Oh. Tatpur has a B.A.? *Yes. He doesn't write himself. He writes in old fashion. But he corrects for just double*-checking philosophy. Editing. And this Kiśora, he was a M.A., and he previously used to write. He was an honor student at Calcutta University, and he used to freelance write in Bengali. So his style is very nice. Why not engage him in simply . . . He is translating now our . . . That's all he does. That, and he greets the guests. He's also good at membership. Gītār Gān has become popular. Yes. That name has become very popular. Everyone is asking: "Where is this Gītār Gān ?" So you can register the name so that others may not . . . Yes, otherwise they'll cash in on it. Yes. You can register it the name. Patron registration. Copyright registration. I think it says it in the book. It says, but you should make sure it's registered. Gopāla, he printed it. I don't know if he had it registered. It says in the book, "All Rights Reserved." That is your statement. But it must be legally protected. They may check up and find out not so and then do it. That Bhagavāner Kathā was printed in what book? Do you know? They have got a paper— Gauḍīya . *These books that Gaura*-Govinda, he wants to get printed. How do we know what is being said? I don't know. Yes, that is the . . . one Oria gentleman will come, and get him to read this book. Then I can understand where he stands. Because he has . . . the Topmost yoga is ready, but I didn't want to print that yet until . . . Never mind. I'll . . . after hearing this book I'll let him know. After they write everything, then I also read it in Bengali. I can . . . and if I see something that seems a little impersonal or something, I say that . . . Correct it. Yes, correct it. That much I can do. Impersonal idea is in everyone's head. "God has no legs, no head. Simply he has got head." I think I can also write to the . . . previously in 1971–72 at the paṇḍāls you used to speak in Bengali some days. I'll write for those tapes. We can . . . Oh, those tapes. I asked for those tapes so long ago. If we can get those Hindi and Bengali tapes we could have them transcribed, and they can make very good essays. All the big English Back to Godhead articles are actually your lectures simply transcribed. So we could transcribe those tapes, and we could have originally your words. Yes. There were ten days when Prabhupāda spoke in Bengali. Twice. Once in Deshapriya Park and once at Maidan. Even today people talk about both festivals. Bhagavāner Kathā. Bhagavāner Kathā. Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha. Paper of Gauḍīya . Yes. Gauḍīya , it was published continuously. What years we should look? More or less. 1950 or little before that. They have got their old Gauḍīyas . They must have. They were so popular, the report was that the readers of Gauḍīya were only hankering after that Bhagavāner Kathā, and after reading that they will throw away. Other articles, they were not interested. So always your writing, people were attracted by. Yes. That is a fact. Even my teachers were attracted in school days. Recently that . . . some professor said that you are the veritable incarnation of Vyāsadeva for Lord Caitanya. Yes. Some have said like that. In my matriculation class I wrote some essay, and I got out of 100, 85 marks. But the teacher came to the class, "Who has written this?" So I stood up, and he thanked me, "Yes, it is very nice." He especially came to thank me for that essay. At least from the human standpoint, it is not humanly possible to have so many books in such a short time. There is no other author, at least that we know. I showed your "As Brilliant as the Sun" to Tarun Kanti Gosh and one other minister, and when they saw that, then after, for ten minutes, all they could say was how Prabhupāda, how he is empowered by Lord Gaurāṅga. They said like that. Yes. That's a good movie, because it simply shows how you are doing so many books. We also showed that to that Atul Krishna Goswami. He came to Māyāpur. When he saw that, he was so . . . that movie, they had never seen such a thing, the process of printing the books. He has good idea about . . . Oh, yes. *He has translated Caitanya*-caritāmṛta in Hindi, they say. He presented me one. Many people ask that if that Gītār Gān could be put in Hindi. See, this Gita Press, they have these little books selling for one rupee, and they've sold lakhs . If we can put Gītār Gān into many languages, it will be bigger than this Gita Press. So you can . . . it is poetry. That's the difference, that Prabhupāda put it in poetry. Who has got that inspiration? It is gān, gītā , song. One can chant it singing. Some people say: "We want the *Gītā* . This is only gān ." But then we have to say: "No, this has got the full *Gītā* . Everything is there. Every śloka is in here. Only put in gān form. But it is actual *Gītā* ." Other people, they say, "I have so many Gītās ." We say: "No, no, you can chant this with your harmonium, or by khol and karatāla you can sing." So many ways the people are taking it. Yes, they can sing very nicely. When we can hear over the loudspeakers Gītār Gān being sung, then we will feel very happy. When the public will start singing publicly Gītār Gān . . . Public singing? When the public begin to recite Gītār Gān at their functions, like they're doing this Tulasīdāsa *Rāmāyaṇa* , if they start that in Bengal, Gītār Gān , then it will be a big success. Tulasīdāsa. Tulasīdāsa *Rāmāyaṇa* is very popular. Because the Hindis, they have no literature. There is no literature. If some Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava could rewrite that according to siddhānta , then it would be very good. Which one? His *Rāmāyaṇa* has got many philosophical errors in it. Oh, yes. If a Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava could write that properly . . . *Why? Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava has immense literature. Why they should bother with Tulasīdāsa? By reading Tulasīdāsa's Rāma*-carita-mānasa, in my experience I've not seen a single man has come to the spiritual platform. I have not seen a single man. Yes. That is not transcendental literature. Because by reading these books you come to transcendental realization. *Yes, that is wanted. They want āśīrvāda . Just like so many people come, āśīrvāda . "You are a saintly person, you give me āśīrvāda so my material happiness may increase. I am not interested with the spiritual knowledge. Give me blessing so that for nothing I get . . . upgrade my material opulence." This is their . . . so those Tulasīdāsa readers, they are like that. They want material opulence. Ārto*-arthārthī. Arthārthī , want some material benefit. They chant Tulasīdāsa's Rāma-carita-mānasa for some material benefit. They're not interested in the spiritual advancement. Nobody. That . . . in Delhi temple where they have paṇḍita ? I'm forgetting his name. One paṇḍita in Delhi? That one āśrama is there. The one whom you stayed with that time? Yes. Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇadāsa? I just met him once. Tejiyas brought him. He's got some āśrama . Some Ācārya or something. Ācārya something. Oh, that Prabhākāra. Ācārya Prabhākāra? *No. Prabhākāra is different. Prabhākāra was first*-initiated. Your first disciple. *Yes. Hari*-nāma-mantra he was given. What year was that? *Nineteen fifty*-four, I think. He did some service. In Jhansi . . . You had that League. I saw photos of that. That League of Devotees. Hmm. A very nice building. Yeah. That was nice. Very nice building. With front wall, and you had painted "League of Devotees." Oh, you have seen. I have seen the photo. Big place. That is still existing? Very big place. That you have seen this Keśavajī Gauḍīya Maṭha in Mathurā? No. There is Caitanya Mahāprabhu Deity. That Deity was there. When I closed that, I brought, that big, big sannyāsī , and delivered Them. They will show. One man cheated you there? Some land? No. The building belonged to a big zamindar . So Prabhākāra arranged. So it was to be given to me, and I wanted to start the League of Devotees from there. Yes, big institution. So I spent some money, whatever money I had, and it was going on. But in the meantime, this Lilavati Munshi.. Oh, that Mr. Munshi. Mrs. At that time she was wife of the governor. Her husband, K. M. Munshi. She had some organization of foreign women. So somehow or other she got imagination that, "This house is very nice." She was governor's wife. So it was not given to me rightly, but I was using. So she wanted that house. So through collector and through all government officials' pressure. She wrote me later on that, "Bhaktivedantajī, you wanted to organize, but you could not. But I have got this institution. Why not give it to me?" So, of course, there were many lawyer friends. They advised me that, "You do not give up. You should litigate." So I thought, "Who is going to litigate? Let me go to Vṛndāvana." So I left. So at Mathurā I delivered the Deity to this Keśavajī Gauḍīya Maṭha, and I made my place in Vṛndāvana. You had such a hard struggle in the beginning. Oh, yes. Because that place, I saw in the photo, everything was there. Nice big sign. It was a very good place. This Prabhākāra helped me. Ninety percent was . . . but if I did not leave, nobody could drive me, that was a fact. But I thought, "Who is going to . . . for litigation? She is the governor's wife, and she is pressing through collectors, through . . ." The manager who was in charge, he had some cinema house. So they had to renew the license, cinema house. And the collector pressed him that, "Unless you arrange for this house, we are not going to renew your license." So I thought, "Unnecessarily this man will be in trouble. I'll have to pay so many rupees, and she is governor's wife." And that lady came to me in Bombay several times: "You take my press. You have got so many publications." So I said: "I can take your press. I have got money. But what shall I do with it? It is letterpress. Now printing is done by offset." That press, Associated Press, it is very good press. It was . . . they got so many government contracts. The whole telephone guides were printed there. But because it is letterset press, it is costly. The government got offset press, cheaper price. So that contract was cancelled. So for her nefarious activity she is punished. Her husband died. She has no more importance, and she was one of the trustees of Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. So she was exempted. Now she's an ordinary woman. Press is not working. All they have is that Bhavan's Journal . Yes. Nobody reads that. You say she was kicked out from the trusteeship. She's not part of that any more. Yes. The other trustees said that "You are simply spending. What you are doing?" After all, when she was wife of the governor she had some prestige. Otherwise . . . she invited me in that Juhu. She has got a house in Juhu. So I told her, "Yes, I can purchase your press. Fifty lakhs is not very big amount for me, but what shall I do? We are printing offset." That is the cause . . . because nowadays printing is done by offset press, she lost all business. People got big, big contract, they got cheaper and better quality. Why they should stick to that press? And government contract was taken from them, big, huge business they lost. Tata Press, they have got offset. Government transferred there. And that was her main support. It was a nice, good press. Practically best press in Bombay, Associated Press. But because it is letter press . . . now to maintain the letter press is very costly. Yes. You have to get new type every year, and that is very costly. Nowadays there is no need of letters, I mean to say . . . Type. Type. No. They have special . . . (break) . . . on all the equipment. Yes. That is not so much for the amount of books that they have been able to produce in such a short time. We can produce one book daily, the machines are so expert. They do outside work as well? What for? We have unlimited . . . Why? Botheration. You have to satisfy your customer, waste time. We keep our machine for our own work. We have so many books. As soon as we print a new book, the previous book is out of print; we have to print again. The first machine introduced by you, yes. Oh, the mimeograph. (laughs) Then other machines came. I did not know, but I was thinking that if some typist would hear my tapes and type, I was thinking like that. Expert typist. Formerly, it was being done like that. Hear, tape recorder. You hear something and then type. Like that. And this machine, you shall, it is, automatically, you hear and type, hear and type. This is made for that. Yes. This is the advancement on that idea, Dictaphone. Telephone. And the dictation of the author, he's hearing and typing. Nowadays everyone is using. The doctors even dictate prescription. The doctor, instead of sending note, he dictates for such and such patient, "He should receive this, take like that." That is recorded. Another, another, and immediately taken, and the compounder hears and . . . no writing. Actually you are dictating the prescription for the whole world. *Yes. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra*-mano-'bhirāmāt ( SB 10.1.4) And prescription is so sweet it pleases the ear and the heart. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt . It is medicine for this material disease. At the same time, it is so pleasing to the ear and the heart. This is the very word. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra . Śrotra means aural. Śrotra-manaḥ , and mind. Mano 'bhirāmāt. Abhirāma , pleasing. After rainy season you'll be coming to Māyāpur, then? Yes. We'll write when the weather improves. Hmm? We'll write when the rains cease. (offers obeisances) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- August 21, 1976, Hyderabad I was with him when he posted the letter. But where is that? I'll ask him when I see him. You have got any copy? No. I didn't keep a copy. When they submit? Quarterly? Yes. Part of the money is contribution for construction of my house. Ten thousand. Ten thousand dollars? Ten thousand dollars, I think. Jayatīrtha mentioned. I am writing one letter to the government that I work hard, I print my books and they are selling, and if I bring the money to construct temple, why people are envious? What is the wrong there? Rather, I should be encouraged that I am bringing so much money in India, foreign exchange, by my hard labor. So why they are envious? Why . . . I have sent this to the governor. To the governor? Governor, Mr. Chandra Reddy. "Why? Wherefrom they are getting money? Where? why?" That is my money by hard labor, that's all. Is it wrong if a man works hard and gets money in foreign country and bring in India? I think they cannot believe that a sādhu could have so much money from selling books. *That may be beyond their dream, but I am not so*-called sādhu . I am trying to execute the orders of my Guru Mahārāja, predecessor. I am not a so-called sādhu , taking a saffron robe, begging for fulfilling the belly. They have to accept you as an international leader. I must be international leader. Yes, they are surprised how . . . this is unique in the history, that a single person's books are sold in so many large quantities. I don't think any author has sold so many books. Huh? *In some of the American magazines they publish a best*-seller list of books, and the number of books we sell goes beyond the best-seller list. And especially philosophical and religious books. These people do not touch. (laughs) Untouchable. Has even Vivekananda has presented so many books? A small book, Thus spake . . . "Thus spake." (laughs) And what he will write? What does he know? Simply bluffers. Chaliats . Our Bon Mahārāja is also one of the chaliats . What is the English for chaliat ? Bluffers? Chaliat means he has no assets but he shows that he is very big. That is called chaliat . Bluffer. Bluffer? Our Tīrtha Mahārāja's Caitanya Research Institute. Here is an Indian Institute for . . . what is that? Bon Mahārāja's? Institute for Indian Culture and Philosophy. But where is your book? You have seen that Tīrtha Mahārāja's one book? The Vedānta as Caitanya Has Seen , like that. And he has given a picture of himself with effulgence on his head. You have seen that? No, I have not seen that one. In all the mandiras where his picture is there, they have all the ācāryas pictures, but only his picture has the effulgence. Such a rascal. He has given Prabhupāda's picture, no effulgence; his picture, effulgence. He's such a rascal. Publicly he's showing. But unfortunately that had to be painted in. He could not just show . . . There's no natural . . . Could not illuminate. Remain in darkness. Effulgence in darkness. And such a shameless man, he is giving effulgence in the picture. (break) . . . gradually we can see that this Society is replacing the Ramakrishna Mission there. Huh? We can see practically that this Society, your Society, is replacing this Ramakrishna Mission more and more. Why Ramakrishna Mission? We are far above the Ramakrishna Mission. Yes. As far as the people go. They are all saying "Hare Kṛṣṇa" and . . . they don't even mention . . . sometimes they ask us, "Do you know who Ramakrishna is?" And we say, "No, we have never heard of him." They go, "You have not heard of Ramakrishna?" We say: "No. We only know Prabhupāda and Lord Caitanya. Everybody knows that, and nobody knows who is Ramakrishna." They do not know what to say. *Then they don't know what to say. They say: "You mean you don't know that Chicago Address?" We say: "No. What? Oh, when Prabhupāda went for Ratha*-yātrā? Yes, that we know." That Chicago Address was the worst. He is defying, "Why you give credit to God?" This is the . . . we have seen that Chicago Address. Now they are eliminating. Most blasphemous. One Christian priest, he was surprised, "What kind of nonsense these Indians are . . ." He asked him, "How you are speaking in this way, 'Why you are giving credit to God?' " He said like that. "You are working, why you are giving credit to God?" This is Vivekananda's realization. And he created God. A illiterate priest, he become God. Because he said, "I am God." That is the proof. Because he said . . .? *"I am God. I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." Therefore his name is Ramakrishna. He was Gadadhar Chatterji, and he said to his disciple, Vivekananda, first*-class rogue that, "I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." So he took it. This is evidence. Because Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the Supreme." So he said: "I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." This is the evidence. What Kṛṣṇa can say, he can say also. This institution is the most harmful institution for Vedic culture. *At one town, Beturhari, that . . . it is called Nakashiparathana. That's about thirty miles north of Māyāpur. One day in advance they advertised that we were coming and we were having a public showing of the cinema and Nitāi*-Gaura ārati . And they had one maidan called Library Maidan. There was one, like, stage there. It is in West Bengal? West Bengal. That's in Nadia District. Just before Phulasi, south of Phulasi. And when we came there and I saw the police in the afternoon, we told them we were going to have a function. So they said that they would send a few policemen. They said that, "We will send some policemen for keeping the order." But that night so many people came . . . the space could only hold four thousand, but another two, three thousand people came, and they were turned away because of insufficient space. So they were standing on the wall and on the rooftops all around, and all you could see were people's heads, just like an ocean. The policemen, after it was over . . . when I chanted, I chanted, "Everyone please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And I chanted the full mantra three times. They chanted so loud that even two, three blocks away people thought that the heavens were shouting. It was like a thunder . . . Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt. And the policemen said that never—even the chief minister came here once—not even half so many people came, and that was announced for one week. This was announced for one day, and more people came than ever before. He said: "This really shows me that the people are hungry for spiritual answer. They have no one to lead them." And these leaders are simply envious, that's all. The only reason why they're not helping us is because they're envious. Because so many people are interested and no one is interested in them. Anyway, our Gītār Gān is selling. *Yes. When we stopped at Burdwan, in one place, one boy sold 198 Bhagavad*-gītās , Gītār Gān , without moving. So many Gītās . . . people were just crowding around taking Gītās so much that the local . . . there were some bookstores. They also came, and they said that "We cannot get wholesale? We have never seen such a book sell so well." Even people come to the temple in Calcutta, they want ten, fifteen copies. Village people. Poor people. They come and say: " Gītār Gān , where is that? I have heard." And they take ten or fifteen copies, they wrap it in their cloth and bring it to the village. It is becoming very popular. Wherever you go, "Where is this Gītār Gān ?" I went to Writers' Building, I had four or five copies with me. I didn't go for selling, I went to see ministers. But all the peons, they were buying the Gītār Gāns from me. I sold out. People were coming up with rupees saying: " Gītār Gān ." I didn't have any more. Out of their own accord they . . . No, they've heard of it. It's becoming famous. That's our inspiration, that if we can make Gītār Gān and Your Divine Grace famous all over Bengal, then we will feel that our mission . . . Yes, I could not write any . . . I wrote some Bengali book, that is now . . . it can be collected from Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha. I continually wrote one book, Bhagavāner Kathā. People are begging us for books in Bengali written by Your Divine Grace. We tell them that . . . (aside) There's no time. That Subhaga translated. But his translations are not so . . . No. There's always trouble with translation in local languages, Hindi or Gujarati. They do not know the philosophy. No. And they do the wrong words. *Now they have a . . . I put a two*-man team. A two- or three-man team. Subhaga, there's one boy Kiśora, and, what's his name, Tatpur. Between the three of them they check and recheck. Tatpur is educated? He's got a B.A. or something. Oh. Tatpur has a B.A.? *Yes. He doesn't write himself. He writes in old fashion. But he corrects for just double*-checking philosophy. Editing. And this Kiśora, he was a M.A., and he previously used to write. He was an honor student at Calcutta University, and he used to freelance write in Bengali. So his style is very nice. Why not engage him in simply . . . He is translating now our . . . That's all he does. That, and he greets the guests. He's also good at membership. Gītār Gān has become popular. Yes. That name has become very popular. Everyone is asking: "Where is this Gītār Gān ?" So you can register the name so that others may not . . . Yes, otherwise they'll cash in on it. Yes. You can register it the name. Patron registration. Copyright registration. I think it says it in the book. It says, but you should make sure it's registered. Gopāla, he printed it. I don't know if he had it registered. It says in the book, "All Rights Reserved." That is your statement. But it must be legally protected. They may check up and find out not so and then do it. That Bhagavāner Kathā was printed in what book? Do you know? They have got a paper— Gauḍīya . *These books that Gaura*-Govinda, he wants to get printed. How do we know what is being said? I don't know. Yes, that is the . . . one Oria gentleman will come, and get him to read this book. Then I can understand where he stands. Because he has . . . the Topmost yoga is ready, but I didn't want to print that yet until . . . Never mind. I'll . . . after hearing this book I'll let him know. After they write everything, then I also read it in Bengali. I can . . . and if I see something that seems a little impersonal or something, I say that . . . Correct it. Yes, correct it. That much I can do. Impersonal idea is in everyone's head. "God has no legs, no head. Simply he has got head." I think I can also write to the . . . previously in 1971–72 at the paṇḍāls you used to speak in Bengali some days. I'll write for those tapes. We can . . . Oh, those tapes. I asked for those tapes so long ago. If we can get those Hindi and Bengali tapes we could have them transcribed, and they can make very good essays. All the big English Back to Godhead articles are actually your lectures simply transcribed. So we could transcribe those tapes, and we could have originally your words. Yes. There were ten days when Prabhupāda spoke in Bengali. Twice. Once in Deshapriya Park and once at Maidan. Even today people talk about both festivals. Bhagavāner Kathā. Bhagavāner Kathā. Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha. Paper of Gauḍīya . Yes. Gauḍīya , it was published continuously. What years we should look? More or less. 1950 or little before that. They have got their old Gauḍīyas . They must have. They were so popular, the report was that the readers of Gauḍīya were only hankering after that Bhagavāner Kathā, and after reading that they will throw away. Other articles, they were not interested. So always your writing, people were attracted by. Yes. That is a fact. Even my teachers were attracted in school days. Recently that . . . some professor said that you are the veritable incarnation of Vyāsadeva for Lord Caitanya. Yes. Some have said like that. In my matriculation class I wrote some essay, and I got out of 100, 85 marks. But the teacher came to the class, "Who has written this?" So I stood up, and he thanked me, "Yes, it is very nice." He especially came to thank me for that essay. At least from the human standpoint, it is not humanly possible to have so many books in such a short time. There is no other author, at least that we know. I showed your "As Brilliant as the Sun" to Tarun Kanti Gosh and one other minister, and when they saw that, then after, for ten minutes, all they could say was how Prabhupāda, how he is empowered by Lord Gaurāṅga. They said like that. Yes. That's a good movie, because it simply shows how you are doing so many books. We also showed that to that Atul Krishna Goswami. He came to Māyāpur. When he saw that, he was so . . . that movie, they had never seen such a thing, the process of printing the books. He has good idea about . . . Oh, yes. *He has translated Caitanya*-caritāmṛta in Hindi, they say. He presented me one. Many people ask that if that Gītār Gān could be put in Hindi. See, this Gita Press, they have these little books selling for one rupee, and they've sold lakhs . If we can put Gītār Gān into many languages, it will be bigger than this Gita Press. So you can . . . it is poetry. That's the difference, that Prabhupāda put it in poetry. Who has got that inspiration? It is gān, gītā , song. One can chant it singing. Some people say: "We want the *Gītā* . This is only gān ." But then we have to say: "No, this has got the full *Gītā* . Everything is there. Every śloka is in here. Only put in gān form. But it is actual *Gītā* ." Other people, they say, "I have so many Gītās ." We say: "No, no, you can chant this with your harmonium, or by khol and karatāla you can sing." So many ways the people are taking it. Yes, they can sing very nicely. When we can hear over the loudspeakers Gītār Gān being sung, then we will feel very happy. When the public will start singing publicly Gītār Gān . . . Public singing? When the public begin to recite Gītār Gān at their functions, like they're doing this Tulasīdāsa *Rāmāyaṇa* , if they start that in Bengal, Gītār Gān , then it will be a big success. Tulasīdāsa. Tulasīdāsa *Rāmāyaṇa* is very popular. Because the Hindis, they have no literature. There is no literature. If some Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava could rewrite that according to siddhānta , then it would be very good. Which one? His *Rāmāyaṇa* has got many philosophical errors in it. Oh, yes. If a Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava could write that properly . . . *Why? Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava has immense literature. Why they should bother with Tulasīdāsa? By reading Tulasīdāsa's Rāma*-carita-mānasa, in my experience I've not seen a single man has come to the spiritual platform. I have not seen a single man. Yes. That is not transcendental literature. Because by reading these books you come to transcendental realization. *Yes, that is wanted. They want āśīrvāda . Just like so many people come, āśīrvāda . "You are a saintly person, you give me āśīrvāda so my material happiness may increase. I am not interested with the spiritual knowledge. Give me blessing so that for nothing I get . . . upgrade my material opulence." This is their . . . so those Tulasīdāsa readers, they are like that. They want material opulence. Ārto*-arthārthī. Arthārthī , want some material benefit. They chant Tulasīdāsa's Rāma-carita-mānasa for some material benefit. They're not interested in the spiritual advancement. Nobody. That . . . in Delhi temple where they have paṇḍita ? I'm forgetting his name. One paṇḍita in Delhi? That one āśrama is there. The one whom you stayed with that time? Yes. Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇadāsa? I just met him once. Tejiyas brought him. He's got some āśrama . Some Ācārya or something. Ācārya something. Oh, that Prabhākāra. Ācārya Prabhākāra? *No. Prabhākāra is different. Prabhākāra was first*-initiated. Your first disciple. *Yes. Hari*-nāma-mantra he was given. What year was that? *Nineteen fifty*-four, I think. He did some service. In Jhansi . . . You had that League. I saw photos of that. That League of Devotees. Hmm. A very nice building. Yeah. That was nice. Very nice building. With front wall, and you had painted "League of Devotees." Oh, you have seen. I have seen the photo. Big place. That is still existing? Very big place. That you have seen this Keśavajī Gauḍīya Maṭha in Mathurā? No. There is Caitanya Mahāprabhu Deity. That Deity was there. When I closed that, I brought, that big, big sannyāsī , and delivered Them. They will show. One man cheated you there? Some land? No. The building belonged to a big zamindar . So Prabhākāra arranged. So it was to be given to me, and I wanted to start the League of Devotees from there. Yes, big institution. So I spent some money, whatever money I had, and it was going on. But in the meantime, this Lilavati Munshi.. Oh, that Mr. Munshi. Mrs. At that time she was wife of the governor. Her husband, K. M. Munshi. She had some organization of foreign women. So somehow or other she got imagination that, "This house is very nice." She was governor's wife. So it was not given to me rightly, but I was using. So she wanted that house. So through collector and through all government officials' pressure. She wrote me later on that, "Bhaktivedantajī, you wanted to organize, but you could not. But I have got this institution. Why not give it to me?" So, of course, there were many lawyer friends. They advised me that, "You do not give up. You should litigate." So I thought, "Who is going to litigate? Let me go to Vṛndāvana." So I left. So at Mathurā I delivered the Deity to this Keśavajī Gauḍīya Maṭha, and I made my place in Vṛndāvana. You had such a hard struggle in the beginning. Oh, yes. Because that place, I saw in the photo, everything was there. Nice big sign. It was a very good place. This Prabhākāra helped me. Ninety percent was . . . but if I did not leave, nobody could drive me, that was a fact. But I thought, "Who is going to . . . for litigation? She is the governor's wife, and she is pressing through collectors, through . . ." The manager who was in charge, he had some cinema house. So they had to renew the license, cinema house. And the collector pressed him that, "Unless you arrange for this house, we are not going to renew your license." So I thought, "Unnecessarily this man will be in trouble. I'll have to pay so many rupees, and she is governor's wife." And that lady came to me in Bombay several times: "You take my press. You have got so many publications." So I said: "I can take your press. I have got money. But what shall I do with it? It is letterpress. Now printing is done by offset." That press, Associated Press, it is very good press. It was . . . they got so many government contracts. The whole telephone guides were printed there. But because it is letterset press, it is costly. The government got offset press, cheaper price. So that contract was cancelled. So for her nefarious activity she is punished. Her husband died. She has no more importance, and she was one of the trustees of Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. So she was exempted. Now she's an ordinary woman. Press is not working. All they have is that Bhavan's Journal . Yes. Nobody reads that. You say she was kicked out from the trusteeship. She's not part of that any more. Yes. The other trustees said that "You are simply spending. What you are doing?" After all, when she was wife of the governor she had some prestige. Otherwise . . . she invited me in that Juhu. She has got a house in Juhu. So I told her, "Yes, I can purchase your press. Fifty lakhs is not very big amount for me, but what shall I do? We are printing offset." That is the cause . . . because nowadays printing is done by offset press, she lost all business. People got big, big contract, they got cheaper and better quality. Why they should stick to that press? And government contract was taken from them, big, huge business they lost. Tata Press, they have got offset. Government transferred there. And that was her main support. It was a nice, good press. Practically best press in Bombay, Associated Press. But because it is letter press . . . now to maintain the letter press is very costly. Yes. You have to get new type every year, and that is very costly. Nowadays there is no need of letters, I mean to say . . . Type. Type. No. They have special . . . (break) . . . on all the equipment. Yes. That is not so much for the amount of books that they have been able to produce in such a short time. We can produce one book daily, the machines are so expert. They do outside work as well? What for? We have unlimited . . . Why? Botheration. You have to satisfy your customer, waste time. We keep our machine for our own work. We have so many books. As soon as we print a new book, the previous book is out of print; we have to print again. The first machine introduced by you, yes. Oh, the mimeograph. (laughs) Then other machines came. I did not know, but I was thinking that if some typist would hear my tapes and type, I was thinking like that. Expert typist. Formerly, it was being done like that. Hear, tape recorder. You hear something and then type. Like that. And this machine, you shall, it is, automatically, you hear and type, hear and type. This is made for that. Yes. This is the advancement on that idea, Dictaphone. Telephone. And the dictation of the author, he's hearing and typing. Nowadays everyone is using. The doctors even dictate prescription. The doctor, instead of sending note, he dictates for such and such patient, "He should receive this, take like that." That is recorded. Another, another, and immediately taken, and the compounder hears and . . . no writing. Actually you are dictating the prescription for the whole world. *Yes. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra*-mano-'bhirāmāt ( SB 10.1.4) And prescription is so sweet it pleases the ear and the heart. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt . It is medicine for this material disease. At the same time, it is so pleasing to the ear and the heart. This is the very word. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra . Śrotra means aural. Śrotra-manaḥ , and mind. Mano 'bhirāmāt. Abhirāma , pleasing. After rainy season you'll be coming to Māyāpur, then? Yes. We'll write when the weather improves. Hmm? We'll write when the rains cease. (offers obeisances) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad (Conversation with Endowments Commissioner of Andhra Pradesh) . . . every day to get permission. Give him some prasāda . *Yes. He is coming at one o'clock, so we'll give the whole mahā*-prasāda . Aiye Aiye , but . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. So at four o'clock you are coming there? No. At Mr. Raja's house? Endowments Minister. They are holding some meeting? Today we have got very good article in the Sunday Chronicle . Have you read this? I have a copy. Everyone is reporting about us very nice, and still there are some envious persons, they are creating doubts about us. They cannot create any doubts, Swāmījī, as long as you are establishing the equality of man in the eyes of God, only one God. That is being done, I think, in midst of . . . Yes, we have no discrimination. Ācchā . No discrimination. And that is the . . . I don't think anybody called . . . Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Unless one is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , he cannot reach the platform of devotional . . . And how can there be anything greater service to humanity than . . . *Here is the first thing, that brahma*-bhūtaḥ , Brahman realization. Then prasannātmā : he is no more under the material tribulation or anxiety. We are in anxiety on account of our material conception of life. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because we have accepted this asat body, material body, which will not exist, and we are concentrating our attention only on this body, therefore we are always anxious. Asad-grahāt. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt . On account of asat . So this is going on all over the world. Simply anxiety. They have created United Nation, but where is the United Nation? The people go there with anxiety, that's all, and come back again with anxiety, because their asad-grahāt remains. The Indian is thinking, "I am Indian, this body," and the American is thinking, "I am American," and the Pakistani is thinking, "I am Pakistani." So asad-graha is there. So how the anxiety will go away? But they do not know this. There is no education. They want to keep him . . . "Feel always that you are Indian," "Feel always that you are American." "You feel always you are Hindu," "Feel always you are Muslim." Asad-graha . How there can be no anxiety? Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt . *So asato mā sad gamaya. This is Vedic injunction. Don't remain on the asat platform. Come to the sat platform. Asato mā sad gamaya. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya . Don't remain ignorant. But unfortunately, people are so absorbed in asat things they do not know what is sat . They cannot go to the sat platform. They cannot go to the light platform. And they are struggling like that. No solution. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). The government may change, but the men are the same—in darkness. What improvement will there be simply by changing government? The persons who are governing, they are in the darkness. So how, by change of government, there will be change of situation? I said in . . . where? That the United Nation is an assembly of dogs barking. You've said this . . . (indistinct) Where did I say it? It was published in the paper. I said that if you keep them as dogs, and if you ask some dogs, "My dear dogs, please do not bark. Live peacefully," is it possible? The dog will bark. That is their business. So we are not enlightening them what is actually we are. We are keeping on this bodily conception. That is the dog's conception. And how there will be peace? There cannot be. Simply by agreement, by treaty, there can be any peaceful? No. Just like children. They agree, "Yes, we shall not fight." Next moment they'll fight. And again they will make agreement. This is going on. What could we do, the devotees down here in Andhra Pradesh state? *You become guided by Bhagavad*-gītā . (indistinct Hindi) . . . if you think that everything could run . . . (indistinct) . . . then ahobalam is there. Ahobalam is there. That is also . . . (indistinct) . . . here now . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you are going. Tomorrow they have to . . . (indistinct) You have counted? Not yet. Counting? No. I've got it listed. 182. 1-8-2. All their temples should be reorganized on the . . . people should come there for being educated. Temple means it is an educational center. Educational center. *Oh, yes. Brāhmaṇas means they are teachers. Paṭhana*-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ . So every temple should be educational center, and the brāhmaṇas should be engaged. They should be properly educated and they should teach others also. In this way, temple means education in spiritual life. And actually spiritual life is life. This material life, the bodily conception of life, is dead life. Aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam (CC Madhya 19.75). This nice shirt you have changed because there is life. When there is no life, who is going to change dress? The body is there, but why you are not interested in changing the dress? Better interest . . . the sooner the body is thrown away or burned up, better. So similarly . . . (break) There is a proverb that a vulture goes very high, but his ambition is where is a dead body. As soon as he finds a dead body, (growling sound) immediately. And we see, "Oh, how high he has gone." So what is the going up so high if your aim is to find out a dead body? And actually, these aeronautics, they went to very high, suppose they went to moon. But after going there they find, "Where is Moscow? Where is this?" The same vulture business. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to give relief to the human society. So everyone should cooperate with this movement. Unfortunately, there are so many envious persons, they are writing against us, talking against us. They should be envious. Because they want to exploit, keeping the people in ignorance. So our preaching is very difficult task, still we're trying our best. That's what I find, Swāmījī. My work is also very difficult. Work is very difficult. We have about 30,000 temples in this state, properties that have temples, the . . . (indistinct) . . . of temples, interest in the temples . . . No, it can be . . . if government takes our advice, we can give them advice how to organize, how to utilize. Definitely. We want a scheme. Definitely. Fortunately, it is the land of this Kṛṣṇā and Godāvarī. It is a sacred land. Tuṅgabhadrā, Kṛṣṇā, Godāvarī. We are finding where everywhere there has been some kind of ups and downs. It has been studied. It is the government's duty to settle up. But they must know how to settle up. If they do not know, then they cannot do anything. No, we want guidance. Of course. That guidance we can give you. That guidance we can give. Because we have taken the brāhmaṇa's position. The brāhmaṇa's duty is to give guidance to the kṣatriya . Government means kṣatriya . So if the kṣatriyas take guidance from the brāhmaṇa and they try to execute, then everything will be all right. So we can give you sufficient guidance, provided you accept it. (laughter) The end is common. And we have found yesterday some of your śiṣyas had come. They're so happy. They said: "This is what the requirement is," and we accept him as a śiṣya . Temple means a center, educational center, education. (aside) Give them prasāda . Bring. Hare Kṛṣṇa. And we have centers through Tirupati. All over the country in our important centers, we have got some centers. Now the thing is that, say, for Tirupati, it has got biggest income. But I understand that this income is being engaged for industrial purpose. But that, how to utilize in industrial purpose, that you do not know. *But just one thing, let me explain Swāmījī. We are not directly giving to industry. What we are doing is we are depositing in a fixed deposit in certain banks, getting the highest interest. That interest we are utilizing for Sanskrit studies, Vedic studies, etcetera. We are not directly giving. What we are doing is this: we invest in your bank, but bank shall invest in a productive industrial purpose. We put a condition. We are not directly putting in the industry, and that's a wrong propaganda that's being done. What we are doing is the interest that comes, the funds that are there, they are safely there in a bank. The interest that comes, we utilize only for religious purposes, like, as I said, the dharma - pracāra, veda*-pracāra , all that we are doing. *So, I have taken this veda*-pracāra. Why not come and join with us? Yes, definitely. *All over the world they're accepting. Now these foreigners, they're accepting. I have done it single*-handed. So if the government comes forward and join with me, we can do at least ten times work. *How, kindly give us, sir, if you have . . . I don't know if I'm taking your very valuable time. We are very sincere about it. We are having Himalayan opposition for some of our schemes. But when I studied yesterday—because before I came to you I thought I shouldn't just come for wasting your valuable time—therefore I have found that your aims are what we have been thinking of for the Society. The veda*-pracāra , we were thinking that we have also started on a small scale, not on your scale. And if it is that we were thinking in these terms—translation of these Vedas . . . *First of all, first of all, you must know what is Veda . Vedas , vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Vedic knowledge means to understand Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself, to understand Him. That is Bhagavad*-gītā . So if you accept the principles of Bhagavad-gītā , the whole Vedas are accepted. Because purpose of Veda is to understand Kṛṣṇa. And that Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself—"I'm like this." So where is the difficulty to understand Vedas ? *May I explain to you what we have, we are doing, Swāmījī? In the villages we have now taken statistics of our veda*-paṇḍitas. There are three hundred of them. Now they have said they don't want to come out of their villages. We have said wherever they are, in their own village, for one or two hours, they meet, chant the Veda in the temple or the village. They'll not do that. They are now willing to. There may be some percentage. If you do not accept the recognized process . . . just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was a great scholar. So He was chanting and dancing. So some of the sannyāsīs , Māyāvādī sannyāsīs in Benares . . . (to devotee) You keep it there, they will take. There was a meeting, and the question was that "You are a sannyāsī . . ." This question was put to Caitanya Mahāprabhu that, "You have taken sannyāsa , You do not read Vedānta , and You are mixing with the sentimental persons, chanting and dancing. What is this?" This was the question. So He explained that, "Yes, My Guru Mahārāja found Me a great rascal." Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). You understand Bengali? No. "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a rascal number one. Therefore he has chastised Me." What is that? Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana . "He has said that 'You are rascal, You cannot read *Vedas* and Vedānta . You are rascal. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing that." . . . (indistinct Hindi) Chanting, yes. Yes. So He is Kṛṣṇa Himself. He's neither rascal nor fool. But He represented the rascal and fools that who will read Vedānta . Everyone is after this Veda . No student will come to study Vedānta . That is not possible in this age. You see? Maybe somebody interested, but generally they'll not come. Even if one is born in the brāhmaṇa family, he is no more interested. *May I submit, Swāmījī, therefore what we did was, these three hundred people, if they chant, three hundred rupees for a dāna*-paṭha , and two hundred rupees for him and a hundred rupees a . . . (indistinct) No, no, brāhmaṇa , why he will take money? It is . . . no, we are giving it as dakṣiṇā . No, dakṣiṇā . But they are chanting in exchange of dakṣiṇā . Because you are giving dakṣiṇā , therefore they are chanting. And you stop that dakṣiṇā , nobody will come. True. You are correct. (laughs) That we have told them. If they teach their own children, hundred rupees for him for teaching, forty rupees for a child who learns. That they will do, but when the hundred rupees will not be sufficient, they'll give up. One thing is that at least one child is learning in each and every house . . . No, I mean to say that is not the process. If you want to satisfy with money, and in exchange of money he wants to chant *Vedas* , that is not . . . No, Swāmījī, some of them didn't care either for the money. Some of them maybe. And they were starving. And they were starving. But generally, generally, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's process should be taken, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu represented Himself that, "I am fool." He is not fool. He's representing the fools of this age. So if we take that process, it will be successful. It will be successful. That also . . . (indistinct) . . . that bhajana and every. Yes, let them come. That is all. Let them come in the temple, and there may be sumptuously offering of bhoga . Let them chant and take prasādam . In this chanting, illiterate, literate, rascal, fool, lower, higher, everyone can join. And give them prasādam . See the effect. *Yes. That is also part of the . . . that is the other part of it. We are having dhana*-prasthānam, bhajana group, hari-kathā group . . . *But kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ . The Vedas are meant for the brāhmaṇas . So there is no brāhmaṇa practically. Neither there is training of brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa means he must speak truth. Satyā śama dama titik . . . and if you ask nowadays anybody that, "You don't speak lie, you speak truth," he will laugh that, "What a rascal this is. By speaking truth one can live nowadays?" he will say. The first business is satyam . And if you ask him, "You speak truth," he will laugh. So where is brāhmaṇa ? A brāhmaṇa is so simple that if you ask him about his secrecy, he'll tell you, "Yes, this is . . ." Satyam . Just like Jābāla Upaniṣad, he was asked, he went to Gautama Muni . . . Satyaka. Satyaka, yes, for initiation. Gautama Muni asked him, "Who is your father?" He said: "I do not know." "Go to your mother." He went to the mother. Mother said: "Oh, my dear son, I do not know." Means he was a prostitute's son. So he came to Gautama Muni and said: "Sir, my mother does not know; I do not know." So he said: "You are a brāhmaṇa ." This is our tradition. "Because you don't keep any secrecy you are brāhmaṇa . I'll initiate." So it is not the birth, but the quality—truthful. But these qualities will come when you make him a devotee. So this process should be taken, how to make him a devotee. And the easiest process of making devotee: let them come to the temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasādam . Then gradually they will become . . . I began this movement on this. Very good idea. Very simple idea. Very simple. And they have come. I never asked them to study *Vedas* in the beginning. What they'll read Veda ? What do they know? But this process has become successful. So if you take this process, it will be very quickly successful. And then literature. I never gave them literature. I have got about eighty books. Not that in the beginning I asked them, "Come here and read books." No. "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam ." Now they are interested in reading books, in publishing them, in selling them and everything. They are doing everything. So if you take the authorized program it will be successful. Otherwise, it will not be successful. Well . . . (indistinct) . . . and how long the Swāmījī will be here? I'll take up the program. We will. As a matter of fact, somehow . . . I am always at your service. *Somehow, the coincides, our program, we have taken a small scale. Every temple has been asked to have this bhajana, hari*-kathā , then this pūjā . . . There must be some competent man to induce. Everything will be planned. Therefore our training has to be started perhaps here. Some of those people who could go. Now these are all the ideas, of course. If you could give an impetus, that's exactly what I wanted to . . . take advice from you. Now if a center is established. What we lack very badly are those people who can competently take up this work in the whole state. The temples are there, the funds are there, organization is there. Men who are, as you say, the real brāhmaṇa , who could go and preach this, we are lacking. We are lacking. And he has to be trained. And the right training you are giving. Anywhere I see your men are . . . So we can give men. Yes. And a training institute has to be started. Very badly we need it. My department also, having any number of people. It is suffering because we don't have the proper people with that objective to govern . . . Because the culture is lost. Culture is lost. Because we take the local people as trust board members. Local people. We appoint officers. Therefore I said if you keep them dogs, what is the use of United Nation? You cannot make the dogs united. That is not possible. Yes. Therefore recently in Tirupati we have been thinking of starting a training institute along with Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. We asked . . . Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have no idea. They have no idea. Ramakrishna Mission we asked. They have no idea. They don't have people. They said: "We don't have men even for our own missions." No. How long they can go on with false pretense? And these people, they have no idea what is spiritual life. It is a profession for collecting money. So if you . . . we do not like to criticize. Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, K. Munshi, he did not believe there is life after death or he did not believe there is Kṛṣṇa, fact. This is the founder. So what is their knowledge? And Vivekananda made Nārāyaṇa daridra . So this is their manufacturing ideas. They have no sound knowledge. Vacant. They are misled themselves, and they will mislead others. This is going on. But if you say that, "You are the only man?" I can say: "Yes, I am the only man at the present moment." You believe or not believe. And why? Because I am following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. That's all. I do not touch anything. That is our process. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we say, that's all. Therefore there is little success. I don't manufacture. I have no extraordinary power or I cannot show magic or jugglery of words. But I do sincerely to present what Kṛṣṇa has said. So if you do that, you'll be successful. If you do not do that, you'll never be successful. If you manufacture idea, you'll not . . . we must know that we are defective. Our manufacturing of idea all defective. We must take standard instructions from Kṛṣṇa. Then everything . . . so if you stick to this point, then we can guide you. And you'll be successful. Guidance is Kṛṣṇa. Our duty is to present Kṛṣṇa. Just like somebody has sent you money order, 1,000 rupees. I am a peon; I am not giving you the money. The money is sent by somebody. But I do not open it, adulterate it—that is my honesty. That is my honesty. So the instruction is Kṛṣṇa's. If I honestly deliver the same message to you, then you are benefited, I am benefited. And as soon as I pilfer it, then it is useless, I am useless, and you don't get profits, success. So if you decide to take Kṛṣṇa's instruction rightly, then we can give you very good guidance. Everywhere you'll be successful. Everything is there. Any plans to have training and . . . *Anything. It must be sanctioned by the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Then it will be successful. For success the people, the local language, so that they may be . . . Language difficulty is there. That we have to solve. Therefore training has to be done here and in other places, anyway, and a center has to be there. You could plan one of those with also . . . *Yes, plan is there. Just like we are doing. And we can give you in detail. Provided you accept this principle that we shall abide by the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Who questions the *Gītā* and the *Upaniṣads* ? *It is very difficult. It is very difficult. You see. Big, big scholars, big, big politicians, they are supposed to be preaching Bhagavad*-gītā . They take their photograph in front of Bhagavad-gītā —but without Kṛṣṇa. They'll never talk of Kṛṣṇa any time. Banish Kṛṣṇa. Even Gandhi has said: "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different." Perhaps you have read in his Gita Press edition. Kṛṣṇa is speaking . . . Radhakrishnan said when Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, he says: "It is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad bhaktaḥ, and he says it is not to the Kṛṣṇa person. Just see how misleading it is. And if a person like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi, misleads, then who will hear me? What I am? There is one big person in Bombay, he said that he has set aside ten lakhs of rupees for Gītā-pracāra . But when I proposed Gītā-pracāra means kṛṣṇa-pracāra , so he said: "No, I want Gītā without Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) Everyone . . . *Then who is the Gītā*-pracāra? Gītā-pracāra. They are doing that. You can see from this big, big person. Gandhi used to say that he believes in *Gītā* and *Gītā* gives him solace in difficult times and so on, so on. But has he ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Tilok has ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Radhakrishnan has ever preached Kṛṣṇa? Nobody. Their policy is take Sītā and kill Rāma. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā. Take away *Gītā* and kill Kṛṣṇa. So Rāvaṇa's policy will never be successful. Rāvaṇa's policy means he will be destroyed. You cannot do any harm to Rāma, but he will be destroyed. This policy, that take Sītā and kill Rāma, means he will destroy himself. So this is going on. Take *Gītā* and kill Kṛṣṇa. This will destroy the whole thing, this Rāvaṇa's policy. And Hanumān's policy, somehow or other rescue Sītā and get her seated by the side of Rāma. Therefore he's worshiped, Vajrāṅgajī. That is the difference between Rāvaṇa's policy. Sītā is the via media. But one is trying to bring back Sītā and seat her by the side of Rāma, and another is trying to take away Sītā and kill Rāma. This wrong policy will not save us. We have to accept the instruction of *Gītā* and accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord. Then everything will be all right. (aside) Prasādam ? So thank you very much for your coming. Thank you. And to you, Swāmī. So, kindly if you will agree to take the instruction of *Gītā* , I am always at your service. I'll give you such guidance—our men, our everything. But you have to decide this. You cannot take up this policy, take *Gītā* and banish Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) That is not wanted. (end) Conversation A -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad (Conversation with Endowments Commissioner of Andhra Pradesh) . . . every day to get permission. Give him some prasāda . *Yes. He is coming at one o'clock, so we'll give the whole mahā*-prasāda . Aiye Aiye , but . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. So at four o'clock you are coming there? No. At Mr. Raja's house? Endowments Minister. They are holding some meeting? Today we have got very good article in the Sunday Chronicle . Have you read this? I have a copy. Everyone is reporting about us very nice, and still there are some envious persons, they are creating doubts about us. They cannot create any doubts, Swāmījī, as long as you are establishing the equality of man in the eyes of God, only one God. That is being done, I think, in midst of . . . Yes, we have no discrimination. Ācchā . No discrimination. And that is the . . . I don't think anybody called . . . Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Unless one is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , he cannot reach the platform of devotional . . . And how can there be anything greater service to humanity than . . . *Here is the first thing, that brahma*-bhūtaḥ , Brahman realization. Then prasannātmā : he is no more under the material tribulation or anxiety. We are in anxiety on account of our material conception of life. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because we have accepted this asat body, material body, which will not exist, and we are concentrating our attention only on this body, therefore we are always anxious. Asad-grahāt. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt . On account of asat . So this is going on all over the world. Simply anxiety. They have created United Nation, but where is the United Nation? The people go there with anxiety, that's all, and come back again with anxiety, because their asad-grahāt remains. The Indian is thinking, "I am Indian, this body," and the American is thinking, "I am American," and the Pakistani is thinking, "I am Pakistani." So asad-graha is there. So how the anxiety will go away? But they do not know this. There is no education. They want to keep him . . . "Feel always that you are Indian," "Feel always that you are American." "You feel always you are Hindu," "Feel always you are Muslim." Asad-graha . How there can be no anxiety? Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt . *So asato mā sad gamaya. This is Vedic injunction. Don't remain on the asat platform. Come to the sat platform. Asato mā sad gamaya. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya . Don't remain ignorant. But unfortunately, people are so absorbed in asat things they do not know what is sat . They cannot go to the sat platform. They cannot go to the light platform. And they are struggling like that. No solution. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). The government may change, but the men are the same—in darkness. What improvement will there be simply by changing government? The persons who are governing, they are in the darkness. So how, by change of government, there will be change of situation? I said in . . . where? That the United Nation is an assembly of dogs barking. You've said this . . . (indistinct) Where did I say it? It was published in the paper. I said that if you keep them as dogs, and if you ask some dogs, "My dear dogs, please do not bark. Live peacefully," is it possible? The dog will bark. That is their business. So we are not enlightening them what is actually we are. We are keeping on this bodily conception. That is the dog's conception. And how there will be peace? There cannot be. Simply by agreement, by treaty, there can be any peaceful? No. Just like children. They agree, "Yes, we shall not fight." Next moment they'll fight. And again they will make agreement. This is going on. What could we do, the devotees down here in Andhra Pradesh state? *You become guided by Bhagavad*-gītā . (indistinct Hindi) . . . if you think that everything could run . . . (indistinct) . . . then ahobalam is there. Ahobalam is there. That is also . . . (indistinct) . . . here now . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you are going. Tomorrow they have to . . . (indistinct) You have counted? Not yet. Counting? No. I've got it listed. 182. 1-8-2. All their temples should be reorganized on the . . . people should come there for being educated. Temple means it is an educational center. Educational center. *Oh, yes. Brāhmaṇas means they are teachers. Paṭhana*-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ . So every temple should be educational center, and the brāhmaṇas should be engaged. They should be properly educated and they should teach others also. In this way, temple means education in spiritual life. And actually spiritual life is life. This material life, the bodily conception of life, is dead life. Aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam (CC Madhya 19.75). This nice shirt you have changed because there is life. When there is no life, who is going to change dress? The body is there, but why you are not interested in changing the dress? Better interest . . . the sooner the body is thrown away or burned up, better. So similarly . . . (break) There is a proverb that a vulture goes very high, but his ambition is where is a dead body. As soon as he finds a dead body, (growling sound) immediately. And we see, "Oh, how high he has gone." So what is the going up so high if your aim is to find out a dead body? And actually, these aeronautics, they went to very high, suppose they went to moon. But after going there they find, "Where is Moscow? Where is this?" The same vulture business. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to give relief to the human society. So everyone should cooperate with this movement. Unfortunately, there are so many envious persons, they are writing against us, talking against us. They should be envious. Because they want to exploit, keeping the people in ignorance. So our preaching is very difficult task, still we're trying our best. That's what I find, Swāmījī. My work is also very difficult. Work is very difficult. We have about 30,000 temples in this state, properties that have temples, the . . . (indistinct) . . . of temples, interest in the temples . . . No, it can be . . . if government takes our advice, we can give them advice how to organize, how to utilize. Definitely. We want a scheme. Definitely. Fortunately, it is the land of this Kṛṣṇā and Godāvarī. It is a sacred land. Tuṅgabhadrā, Kṛṣṇā, Godāvarī. We are finding where everywhere there has been some kind of ups and downs. It has been studied. It is the government's duty to settle up. But they must know how to settle up. If they do not know, then they cannot do anything. No, we want guidance. Of course. That guidance we can give you. That guidance we can give. Because we have taken the brāhmaṇa's position. The brāhmaṇa's duty is to give guidance to the kṣatriya . Government means kṣatriya . So if the kṣatriyas take guidance from the brāhmaṇa and they try to execute, then everything will be all right. So we can give you sufficient guidance, provided you accept it. (laughter) The end is common. And we have found yesterday some of your śiṣyas had come. They're so happy. They said: "This is what the requirement is," and we accept him as a śiṣya . Temple means a center, educational center, education. (aside) Give them prasāda . Bring. Hare Kṛṣṇa. And we have centers through Tirupati. All over the country in our important centers, we have got some centers. Now the thing is that, say, for Tirupati, it has got biggest income. But I understand that this income is being engaged for industrial purpose. But that, how to utilize in industrial purpose, that you do not know. *But just one thing, let me explain Swāmījī. We are not directly giving to industry. What we are doing is we are depositing in a fixed deposit in certain banks, getting the highest interest. That interest we are utilizing for Sanskrit studies, Vedic studies, etcetera. We are not directly giving. What we are doing is this: we invest in your bank, but bank shall invest in a productive industrial purpose. We put a condition. We are not directly putting in the industry, and that's a wrong propaganda that's being done. What we are doing is the interest that comes, the funds that are there, they are safely there in a bank. The interest that comes, we utilize only for religious purposes, like, as I said, the dharma - pracāra, veda*-pracāra , all that we are doing. *So, I have taken this veda*-pracāra. Why not come and join with us? Yes, definitely. *All over the world they're accepting. Now these foreigners, they're accepting. I have done it single*-handed. So if the government comes forward and join with me, we can do at least ten times work. *How, kindly give us, sir, if you have . . . I don't know if I'm taking your very valuable time. We are very sincere about it. We are having Himalayan opposition for some of our schemes. But when I studied yesterday—because before I came to you I thought I shouldn't just come for wasting your valuable time—therefore I have found that your aims are what we have been thinking of for the Society. The veda*-pracāra , we were thinking that we have also started on a small scale, not on your scale. And if it is that we were thinking in these terms—translation of these Vedas . . . *First of all, first of all, you must know what is Veda . Vedas , vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Vedic knowledge means to understand Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself, to understand Him. That is Bhagavad*-gītā . So if you accept the principles of Bhagavad-gītā , the whole Vedas are accepted. Because purpose of Veda is to understand Kṛṣṇa. And that Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself—"I'm like this." So where is the difficulty to understand Vedas ? *May I explain to you what we have, we are doing, Swāmījī? In the villages we have now taken statistics of our veda*-paṇḍitas. There are three hundred of them. Now they have said they don't want to come out of their villages. We have said wherever they are, in their own village, for one or two hours, they meet, chant the Veda in the temple or the village. They'll not do that. They are now willing to. There may be some percentage. If you do not accept the recognized process . . . just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was a great scholar. So He was chanting and dancing. So some of the sannyāsīs , Māyāvādī sannyāsīs in Benares . . . (to devotee) You keep it there, they will take. There was a meeting, and the question was that "You are a sannyāsī . . ." This question was put to Caitanya Mahāprabhu that, "You have taken sannyāsa , You do not read Vedānta , and You are mixing with the sentimental persons, chanting and dancing. What is this?" This was the question. So He explained that, "Yes, My Guru Mahārāja found Me a great rascal." Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). You understand Bengali? No. "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a rascal number one. Therefore he has chastised Me." What is that? Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana . "He has said that 'You are rascal, You cannot read *Vedas* and Vedānta . You are rascal. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing that." . . . (indistinct Hindi) Chanting, yes. Yes. So He is Kṛṣṇa Himself. He's neither rascal nor fool. But He represented the rascal and fools that who will read Vedānta . Everyone is after this Veda . No student will come to study Vedānta . That is not possible in this age. You see? Maybe somebody interested, but generally they'll not come. Even if one is born in the brāhmaṇa family, he is no more interested. *May I submit, Swāmījī, therefore what we did was, these three hundred people, if they chant, three hundred rupees for a dāna*-paṭha , and two hundred rupees for him and a hundred rupees a . . . (indistinct) No, no, brāhmaṇa , why he will take money? It is . . . no, we are giving it as dakṣiṇā . No, dakṣiṇā . But they are chanting in exchange of dakṣiṇā . Because you are giving dakṣiṇā , therefore they are chanting. And you stop that dakṣiṇā , nobody will come. True. You are correct. (laughs) That we have told them. If they teach their own children, hundred rupees for him for teaching, forty rupees for a child who learns. That they will do, but when the hundred rupees will not be sufficient, they'll give up. One thing is that at least one child is learning in each and every house . . . No, I mean to say that is not the process. If you want to satisfy with money, and in exchange of money he wants to chant *Vedas* , that is not . . . No, Swāmījī, some of them didn't care either for the money. Some of them maybe. And they were starving. And they were starving. But generally, generally, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's process should be taken, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu represented Himself that, "I am fool." He is not fool. He's representing the fools of this age. So if we take that process, it will be successful. It will be successful. That also . . . (indistinct) . . . that bhajana and every. Yes, let them come. That is all. Let them come in the temple, and there may be sumptuously offering of bhoga . Let them chant and take prasādam . In this chanting, illiterate, literate, rascal, fool, lower, higher, everyone can join. And give them prasādam . See the effect. *Yes. That is also part of the . . . that is the other part of it. We are having dhana*-prasthānam, bhajana group, hari-kathā group . . . *But kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ . The Vedas are meant for the brāhmaṇas . So there is no brāhmaṇa practically. Neither there is training of brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa means he must speak truth. Satyā śama dama titik . . . and if you ask nowadays anybody that, "You don't speak lie, you speak truth," he will laugh that, "What a rascal this is. By speaking truth one can live nowadays?" he will say. The first business is satyam . And if you ask him, "You speak truth," he will laugh. So where is brāhmaṇa ? A brāhmaṇa is so simple that if you ask him about his secrecy, he'll tell you, "Yes, this is . . ." Satyam . Just like Jābāla Upaniṣad, he was asked, he went to Gautama Muni . . . Satyaka. Satyaka, yes, for initiation. Gautama Muni asked him, "Who is your father?" He said: "I do not know." "Go to your mother." He went to the mother. Mother said: "Oh, my dear son, I do not know." Means he was a prostitute's son. So he came to Gautama Muni and said: "Sir, my mother does not know; I do not know." So he said: "You are a brāhmaṇa ." This is our tradition. "Because you don't keep any secrecy you are brāhmaṇa . I'll initiate." So it is not the birth, but the quality—truthful. But these qualities will come when you make him a devotee. So this process should be taken, how to make him a devotee. And the easiest process of making devotee: let them come to the temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasādam . Then gradually they will become . . . I began this movement on this. Very good idea. Very simple idea. Very simple. And they have come. I never asked them to study *Vedas* in the beginning. What they'll read Veda ? What do they know? But this process has become successful. So if you take this process, it will be very quickly successful. And then literature. I never gave them literature. I have got about eighty books. Not that in the beginning I asked them, "Come here and read books." No. "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam ." Now they are interested in reading books, in publishing them, in selling them and everything. They are doing everything. So if you take the authorized program it will be successful. Otherwise, it will not be successful. Well . . . (indistinct) . . . and how long the Swāmījī will be here? I'll take up the program. We will. As a matter of fact, somehow . . . I am always at your service. *Somehow, the coincides, our program, we have taken a small scale. Every temple has been asked to have this bhajana, hari*-kathā , then this pūjā . . . There must be some competent man to induce. Everything will be planned. Therefore our training has to be started perhaps here. Some of those people who could go. Now these are all the ideas, of course. If you could give an impetus, that's exactly what I wanted to . . . take advice from you. Now if a center is established. What we lack very badly are those people who can competently take up this work in the whole state. The temples are there, the funds are there, organization is there. Men who are, as you say, the real brāhmaṇa , who could go and preach this, we are lacking. We are lacking. And he has to be trained. And the right training you are giving. Anywhere I see your men are . . . So we can give men. Yes. And a training institute has to be started. Very badly we need it. My department also, having any number of people. It is suffering because we don't have the proper people with that objective to govern . . . Because the culture is lost. Culture is lost. Because we take the local people as trust board members. Local people. We appoint officers. Therefore I said if you keep them dogs, what is the use of United Nation? You cannot make the dogs united. That is not possible. Yes. Therefore recently in Tirupati we have been thinking of starting a training institute along with Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. We asked . . . Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have no idea. They have no idea. Ramakrishna Mission we asked. They have no idea. They don't have people. They said: "We don't have men even for our own missions." No. How long they can go on with false pretense? And these people, they have no idea what is spiritual life. It is a profession for collecting money. So if you . . . we do not like to criticize. Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, K. Munshi, he did not believe there is life after death or he did not believe there is Kṛṣṇa, fact. This is the founder. So what is their knowledge? And Vivekananda made Nārāyaṇa daridra . So this is their manufacturing ideas. They have no sound knowledge. Vacant. They are misled themselves, and they will mislead others. This is going on. But if you say that, "You are the only man?" I can say: "Yes, I am the only man at the present moment." You believe or not believe. And why? Because I am following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. That's all. I do not touch anything. That is our process. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we say, that's all. Therefore there is little success. I don't manufacture. I have no extraordinary power or I cannot show magic or jugglery of words. But I do sincerely to present what Kṛṣṇa has said. So if you do that, you'll be successful. If you do not do that, you'll never be successful. If you manufacture idea, you'll not . . . we must know that we are defective. Our manufacturing of idea all defective. We must take standard instructions from Kṛṣṇa. Then everything . . . so if you stick to this point, then we can guide you. And you'll be successful. Guidance is Kṛṣṇa. Our duty is to present Kṛṣṇa. Just like somebody has sent you money order, 1,000 rupees. I am a peon; I am not giving you the money. The money is sent by somebody. But I do not open it, adulterate it—that is my honesty. That is my honesty. So the instruction is Kṛṣṇa's. If I honestly deliver the same message to you, then you are benefited, I am benefited. And as soon as I pilfer it, then it is useless, I am useless, and you don't get profits, success. So if you decide to take Kṛṣṇa's instruction rightly, then we can give you very good guidance. Everywhere you'll be successful. Everything is there. Any plans to have training and . . . *Anything. It must be sanctioned by the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Then it will be successful. For success the people, the local language, so that they may be . . . Language difficulty is there. That we have to solve. Therefore training has to be done here and in other places, anyway, and a center has to be there. You could plan one of those with also . . . *Yes, plan is there. Just like we are doing. And we can give you in detail. Provided you accept this principle that we shall abide by the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Who questions the *Gītā* and the *Upaniṣads* ? *It is very difficult. It is very difficult. You see. Big, big scholars, big, big politicians, they are supposed to be preaching Bhagavad*-gītā . They take their photograph in front of Bhagavad-gītā —but without Kṛṣṇa. They'll never talk of Kṛṣṇa any time. Banish Kṛṣṇa. Even Gandhi has said: "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different." Perhaps you have read in his Gita Press edition. Kṛṣṇa is speaking . . . Radhakrishnan said when Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, he says: "It is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad bhaktaḥ, and he says it is not to the Kṛṣṇa person. Just see how misleading it is. And if a person like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi, misleads, then who will hear me? What I am? There is one big person in Bombay, he said that he has set aside ten lakhs of rupees for Gītā-pracāra . But when I proposed Gītā-pracāra means kṛṣṇa-pracāra , so he said: "No, I want Gītā without Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) Everyone . . . *Then who is the Gītā*-pracāra? Gītā-pracāra. They are doing that. You can see from this big, big person. Gandhi used to say that he believes in *Gītā* and *Gītā* gives him solace in difficult times and so on, so on. But has he ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Tilok has ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Radhakrishnan has ever preached Kṛṣṇa? Nobody. Their policy is take Sītā and kill Rāma. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā. Take away *Gītā* and kill Kṛṣṇa. So Rāvaṇa's policy will never be successful. Rāvaṇa's policy means he will be destroyed. You cannot do any harm to Rāma, but he will be destroyed. This policy, that take Sītā and kill Rāma, means he will destroy himself. So this is going on. Take *Gītā* and kill Kṛṣṇa. This will destroy the whole thing, this Rāvaṇa's policy. And Hanumān's policy, somehow or other rescue Sītā and get her seated by the side of Rāma. Therefore he's worshiped, Vajrāṅgajī. That is the difference between Rāvaṇa's policy. Sītā is the via media. But one is trying to bring back Sītā and seat her by the side of Rāma, and another is trying to take away Sītā and kill Rāma. This wrong policy will not save us. We have to accept the instruction of *Gītā* and accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord. Then everything will be all right. (aside) Prasādam ? So thank you very much for your coming. Thank you. And to you, Swāmī. So, kindly if you will agree to take the instruction of *Gītā* , I am always at your service. I'll give you such guidance—our men, our everything. But you have to decide this. You cannot take up this policy, take *Gītā* and banish Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) That is not wanted. (end) Conversation A -- August 24, 1976, Hyderabad (Meeting with Endowments Commissioner) But we are so . . . (aside) You can keep it there now. Keep. So we do not believe in these things, that there is Bhagavān, and Bhagavān comes, He has got a mission. Do you believe in these things? Frankly speaking, do you believe in these things? We do. We do believe. We feel it also in our body. Then you must act according to His mission. According to His mission. The mission is, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata ( BG 4.7). When we are engaged in glānir dharma , which is not dharma —cheating. Glānir , glānir . What is the glānir ? Hatred. Hatred. No. Glānir means which is abominable. Abominable. *Yes. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). So what is that glānir ? Glānir means . . . dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , there is . . . Yamarāja said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam . Dharma cannot be manufactured by any man. (aside) You have got Sixth Canto? Sixth Canto, Third Chapter, nineteenth verse. *Yes, find this verse. Yamarāja said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam . Even the demigods, they cannot manufacture dharma . "Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great ṛṣis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras , ordinary human beings, Vidyādharas and Cāraṇas." *Nobody can. This is the principle. So when so many rascal dharma is introduced, that is dharmasya glāniḥ. So we must know this. Then we can understand what is the mission of Bhagavān. When rascals are introducing so*-called so many dharmas , that is dharmasya glāniḥ . Do you accept or not? Yes, we accept. *Therefore, Bhagavān concludes at the end, "You rascal, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66)." This is dharma . To surrender to the Lord, that is dharma . And in another place, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Without this, all cheating. If there is no bhakti , surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all these kind of dharmas , they're all cheating. Therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). On this, Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented, atra mokṣa vañca api nirastam . Dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41,CC Ādi 1.90). So according to this principle, they're all cheating. So-called religious system, artha , economic development, sense gratification. Just like that we have created so many social dharma : saṁsāra-dharma , gṛhastha-dharma , this dharma , that dharma . So in that way, they're all cheating. Therefore, our request is that yajñārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). In the Bālajī's temple, mostly poor cultivators, I have seen, they go. And they want to give something to the Lord. Yajñārthe . So the karmīs , they're advised, yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad arpaṇam , "Give Me." So these karmīs , somehow or other, by their great fortune they're giving something to the Lord. Yajñārthe . (someone enters) Aiye . That money should not be utilized for any other purpose. That is our mission. It must be utilized for the purpose to fulfill the mission of the Lord. Mission of the Lord is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66): how people can be trained up to give up all these nonsensical type of dharma, and how to become a devotee of Lord. For this purpose this money should be spent. Then it will be all right. Mostly it is utilized for that. Almost completely. Only one or two is mere, what is called, charity. The industry . . . there's been a wrong impression that we are working directly with industry. *No, no. That is . . . it should be utilized simply for the purpose of awakening the devotional, what is called, inspiration. For no other purpose. Just like in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said, nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Kṛṣṇa-bhakti , nitya-siddha . This is our natural. Just like these Europeans and Americans, they have become kṛṣṇa-bhaktas . So what business they had to do with Kṛṣṇa? They're coming from Christian family, Jewish families, or some of them Muhammadan family. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṇa? They haven't got to do anything with Kṛṣṇa. So how they have become a kṛṣṇa-bhakta ? Even the . . . just like he is coming from Parsi family, he is coming from Jewish family, he is coming from Christian family, he is coming from Europe, he is coming from America. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṇa? We Indians, or Hindus, we may have some concern with Kṛṣṇa, but what they have got? They haven't got anything to do with Kṛṣṇa. Now you pay them one lakh of rupees and ask them, "You become again Christian. You become again Parsi." Just see. Make them again Christian. Practical. These are young boys. You ask them that, "I'll give you good girl, I'll give you good money. You give up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, come here." Ask them. Make a test. They'll refuse, they'll kick out. How they have become? Therefore it is a fact, as it is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta , kṛṣṇa-bhakti nitya-siddha . Everyone has got kṛṣṇa-bhakti eternally. It is not artificial. They have not become kṛṣṇa-bhakta artificially. It is the eternal link that has been awakened. There's no doubt of that, Swāmījī. Let us say there are hundred leprosy patients. There are one thousand orphans. We put them there, give them food, and make them pray to Kṛṣṇa . . . *Well, you are . . . they are mistaken. But if you have to awaken kṛṣṇa*-bhakti , why you go to the lepers? No, they have come here. They are all there in the temple. They are not allowing others to pray properly. They are all, one thousand . . . in the past . . . *We have no objection, that . . . because our principle is kṛṣṇa*-bhakti nitya-siddha . So kṛṣṇa-bhakti is there in everyone. So leper or non-leper. Just like our Vivekananda, he took up daridra-nārāyaṇa . This is an absurd proposition. Nārāyaṇa is never daridra . But if you put this argument, that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, so if Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, why you take up only daridra-nārāyaṇa ? Why not dhanī-nārāyaṇa also? If you have got so broad vision that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, therefore we see everyone, so why you particularly take the daridra-nārāyaṇa ? Similarly, kṛṣṇa-bhakti is everywhere. It is in the leper or non-leper. So why should we take particularly the leper? So that is outwardly a social service, that they are taking care of the leper. So if that vision, it will not be right. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti even requires . . . even a karmī like big, big owner of factories, he's more diseased than the leper, because he has no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . So we have to take care of the leper and the richest man also if he has no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . That also. That also. No, therefore we should not make any distinction that only the lepers will be taken care of. Again, let's say a rich man or somebody comes, prays . . . Everyone is more than leper. He takes prasāda in the temple, he goes. But this man is not allowed. He can't come. Therefore God goes to him. *We have to take . . . you cannot manufacture where God goes. You should have to take lesson from God. That is one thing. If we manufacture ideas, that will never be successful. That will never be successful. Don't manufacture ideas. If you want to be servant of God, you must take instruction from God. That is wanted. You cannot manufacture idea, that "God wants this." So first of all try to understand what is God's mission. God's mission is, it is clearly said, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). So, more or less, everyone is entangled with this glānir dharma . They have manufactured. Just like the demigod worship. This is a glānir dharma . Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). And Kṛṣṇa clearly says, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). *So if you want to utilize, people are giving in good faith, Bālajī, Kṛṣṇa, their hard*-earned money, whatever we are giving something. Yajña , that is wanted. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). That money should not be utilized for any other purpose except yajña . First of all, you have to decide like that. Then we can give you direction. First of all, you have to decide that this money, not a single farthing should be spent for any other purpose than performing yajña . Then we can give you right direction. And if you have plan to utilize this money for any other purpose, that is not Kṛṣṇa's mission; *that is your mission. So first of all you have to decide whether you are going to execute Kṛṣṇa's mission or your mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission is very clearly defined. It is there. Everything is declared there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . We can do it very nicely. But if you want to do any other mission, then you can do. You are government, you are in power, you can do that. But that will not be pleasing to Kṛṣṇa. He has got a mission. That is stated: dharmasya glānir bhavati . So any dharma , so-called dharma , which does not awaken their Kṛṣṇa consciousness is glāniḥ . Kṛṣṇa does not want that. If you're against the will of Kṛṣṇa, against the mission of Kṛṣṇa, if you want to do something, you can do it. People are doing so many things. That is also mentioned by Kṛṣṇa. Iti te jñānam . . . (BG 18.63). No. That one verse is that one does not . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is that, "Surrender unto Me." Now, who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa? That is stated by Kṛṣṇa: *Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he must be grouped either duṣkṛtina , mūḍha , narādhama , māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna , āsuraṁ bhāvam . We do that. Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he must be grouped among them. And for them, what is their . . . tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram . (aside) Find out this verse, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān . . . if anyone is envious of Kṛṣṇa, then what is his punishment? This is their punishment. "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence into various demoniac species of life." And next verse? "Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence." So this is my request, that our money . . . there is nothing "Our money", everything Kṛṣṇa's. But we are thinking, because we are asuric. So asuras think like that. Just like Kaṁsa, Hiraṇyakaśipu: "Hah!" Rāvaṇa: "Hah! What is Rāma?" That is asura's. They think like that, and that is asuric. But otherwise, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore yajña is advised. The sooner you hand over Kṛṣṇa's property to Kṛṣṇa, it is good for you. *Swāmījī, we are karma*-yogīs . We start the day with surrendering to God and asking Him to show us the way. Beyond that, I don't know what our duty . . . *But a karma*-yogī , why you should take Kṛṣṇa's money for karma? For what? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . that is for . . . That is the . . . It is not used. As you have correctly said, that way only it is used. There may be different . . . *No, the first thing is that if you decide that Kṛṣṇa's money should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's mission, so Kṛṣṇa's mission is this, that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). You have to bring them to the sense of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And there is a process. You cannot manufacture that process. You have to take the process from Kṛṣṇa. That Kṛṣṇa says: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. You have to teach people how he can think of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā . Then the mission is there. That is Kṛṣṇa also. Kṛṣṇa says: *You have to teach them like that. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām , as we are doing. We're always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But if you manufacture in your own way, that you can do. Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ na sa siddhim avāpnoti (BG 16.23). That will never be successful. If you have to execute the mission of Kṛṣṇa, you have to take instruction of Kṛṣṇa and do it rigidly. Then you'll be successful. Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is that one must know Kṛṣṇa and surrender to Him. This is mission. Kṛṣṇa does not say that by karma-yoga one can understand Him. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). You cannot say, "We are karma-yogīs ." Karma-yogī means the third class. He's karmī , and little mixed up with bhakti . Adulterated. Jñāna-yogī , he's not a bhakta . He's jñānī , but just to bring him gradually, a little bhakti . You see? And real bhakti is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). When it will be tintless of any karma and jñāna , then it is pure bhakti . That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Not mixed up with jñāna , karma , yoga . Otherwise, how Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti ? He could have said, "Any way," as these rascals say, "Any way go, you will get Kṛṣṇa." That Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ (BG 7.3). Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). So that tattva , bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). So we have to take this. You manufacture in your own way, and still you carry out the mission of Kṛṣṇa—that is contradiction. You have to take the lesson from Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be successful. Karma-yoga is for the third class. They are addicted to karma , a little bhakti , that's all. That is not pure. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). When there is not a tinge of karma and jñāna , that is pure bhakti . That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. *So everything is there, direction is there. We can guide you—not according to our whims, but according to śāstra . And if you agree to accept, then we can also cooperate with you. But if you manufacture your own way, then how we can possibly . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is this: yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). Except kṛṣṇa*-bhakti , bhaktyā , everything is glāniḥ . All glāniḥ . And that can be awakened, kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Just like these boys are doing. That is enunciated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta : nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa—everyone has kṛṣṇa-bhakti . You have to awaken simply. Nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema sādhya kabhu naya (CC Madhya 22.107). It is not artificial. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya . If the hearing about Kṛṣṇa is pure . . . that is also confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : *So we have to follow this formula. This is śāstra*-viddhi : one step to another. And if you don't care for the śāstra-viddhi , we can do that, but na siddhiṁ na avāpnoti : it will never be successful. It will be a show, big show, but there will be no siddhi . (pause) *If you want to do according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, our cent percent cooperation will be there. We'll not touch a single farthing of your money, but we can give you direction, "Spend it like that." And government men, you can see that we are not touching a single farthing of your money, but it is being spent for Kṛṣṇa's mission. That you can believe. It is the duty of the government men to see that people may not misrepresent. That is the Vedic injunction. Pṛthu Mahārāja was to see that a brāhmin is doing, acting like brāhmin , kṣatriya is doing like kṣatriya . So it is government's duty to see that Bālajī's money, Kṛṣṇa's money, is to the farthing spent for His mission. That is your duty. That is government's duty, that nothing is misused, nothing is misrepresented. But we know how to execute the mission of Kṛṣṇa. Everyone can know, because direction is there. It is not a secret thing. It is open secret. But you have to act. That requires faith. And so far my experience goes, the whole world will take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unfortunately, I am struggling single*-handed. And they are criticizing me in the Parliament. You have seen the recent article Blitz against me? What is that heading? "Ungodly face." I am doing ungodly? But they are advertising like that, trying to make me unpopular. The Māyāvādīs, they say that Bhaktivedanta Swami is ruining Hinduism. They are saying like that . . . Bolta hai ki nahi? . . . mayavadi saying like this? (Saying like this or not? . . . mayavadi is saying like this?) So I am being criticized in Parliament, I am criticized by the so-called jagad-gurus who have never seen what is jagat . And so on, so on. No, for a country suffering from multiplicity of gods, Hinduism, you are doing a very great service, asking them to concentrate on Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . only God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). How you are enlightening them, it is a very great service. No doubt about that actually. They don't know. And you are making the man, the human being, a servant of that God . . . (indistinct) . . . divinity. This is not my manufacture. Śāstra says, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . They have said so many things in the name of śāstra . They have said so many things in the name of śāstra . That you are making it one is very good. *No, those who are approved śāstra is accepted by the ācāryas . Śāstra , which is accepted by the ācārya , that is śāstra . You cannot make. As you cannot manufacture religion, you cannot manufacture śāstras . Approved by the ācāryas . Ācāryopāsanam . Therefore Kṛṣṇa says also that you should know from the ācārya . Everyone, they are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā with the purpose of killing Kṛṣṇa. Everyone. The politicians, the scholars, the rascals and everyone. The main purpose is how to kill Kṛṣṇa. In Bombay I have got a very big friend, you know him. I do not wish to disclose his name. He has set aside ten lakhs of rupees from preaching Gītā . But he wants Gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Rāma without Sītā. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā; Rāma will remain alone. So take away Gītā and cut Kṛṣṇa. But I cannot make any compromise. I shall . . . my life is ended; *now I'm eighty*-one. I do not know . . . but so long I shall live, I shall make no compromise, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svaya m (SB 1.3.28). Dṛḍha-vrata . And that is a fact. Why shall I mislead people? They are searching after God, what is God. Here is God. Why don't you take it? See His activities. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47). Tally with the formula of God, you see Kṛṣṇa is there. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . So whatever teeny effort I have got, I shall try to establish temples of Kṛṣṇa all over the world with my teeny income. I have got book sales. Kṛṣṇa has given me very good chance. It is beyond any dream. We are selling books sixty thousand dollars daily. Six lakhs about. Thirty thousand dollars. Sixty thousand dollars. Yes, daily. And we are known the topmost publisher of religious and philosophical books in the world. And we are approved . . . our books are approved by the greatest learned scholars of all universities. Because they are seeing a new light. No hodgepodge philosophy. India also, wherever we are going. Now he has come . . . within how many days? Within a month. Yes, one month, in Uttar Pradesh . . . He has got seventy standing orders. Our books are, say, eighty. So eighty books, say, average five dollars. So eighty books, five dollars means . . . Four hundred dollars. Four hundred dollars. Such seventy orders. Four hundred by seventy. He has secured order in one month, seventy orders. In one place. Standing orders. "Whatever is published, give us, and then others, when they will be published, send also." They have not seen even the books. This is practical pracāra , giving of books. No librarian, no university, no scholar, no professor is refusing. As soon as we go, "Oh, yes, bring. We shall take." So I am bringing money from the foreign countries by my selling books, and they are criticizing me that I am CIA. (laughter) Just see the fun. And there is nobody to give me protection. Not Lord giving protection? (laughter) No, Lord giving, giving. That I am confident. Because they are envious, "How Bhaktivedanta Swami is getting so much money? He's paying crores and crores. There must be some political . . ." As they are getting from Russia. But actually, I am selling. I am working night, writing these books, and these boys are helping me to sell it. I am getting enough money to spend it. What is my fault? For Kṛṣṇa's sake we have sacrificed everything, our life and everything, and Kṛṣṇa is giving us money and we are spending it, and they are criticizing in the Parliament. This is my misfortune. I don't take it as misfortune. Because asuras are always there. Even Kṛṣṇa's time. They are criticizing, but not . . . Because we are getting so much money. For this temple we have to spend . . . ten lakhs ? Twelve lakhs . Twelve lakhs . So by selling my books. And I have sent him more than four lakhs , five lakhs from foreign countries. This is my fault. Similarly, in Bombay we are spending every month seven lakhs regularly. That is coming from foreign countries. And they are thinking that I'm taking bribe and acting as CIA. Just see. And CIA have become Vaiṣṇavas with long śikhā and giving up all facilities of life, and they are dancing with the CIA. People have no common sense that CIA agent could stay in a nice hotel and enjoy life. Why so much vairāgya ? Even my Godbrothers said that American government has given me two crores of rupees. Now we are planning to have a temple in Māyāpur where . . . what is, what is the economic estimates, where we shall spend how much money monthly? Two hundred thousand dollars monthly. Two hundred thousand dollars monthly. Navadwip, mayapur me. (In Navadwip, Māyāpur.) Two hundred thousand. (break) Nobody will be able to check it. He'll go on. That is Kṛṣṇa. Here is Dictaphone. I work at night. I get up at half past twelve, one, and I write books. And daytime I'm engaged. And daily either ten page, twenty page written, that is sent to Los Angeles. You have seen our Press? And they take care. How our books printed, have you got that film? I have it in 16mm. Yes. Why don't you show? Just now? Yes. It will take little . . . (indistinct background conversation about projectors) I don't have a Fairchild. I have it in 16mm film. That's all right. But the Press . . . Yes, the Press film. You can show, they'll be . . . (background talk about projectors) How in the American industrial process we are printing our books. I made the Book Trust, sixty thousand dollars they are selling. So as author, I could have derived from them at least six thousand, ten percent minimum. Six thousand dollars per day. Six thousand dollars means sixty thousand rupees. That could have been my daily income. But I take little khicuṛi from them, that's all. (Harikeśa laughing) Two crores per year, it comes to . . . Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . he was last month at Los Angeles. Yes. (pause) Our farming projects, very successful. Now here, Badrukajī is also giving us some land. Aiye . . . bathiye. (Come . . . sit.) (someone arrives) (background conversation) Vāsughoṣa. So we have got big program. Any amount of money you bring to us, we shall spend it immediately. (background conversation) (pause) (loud kīrtana in background) (break) *There is a logic, andha*-paṅgu-nyāya . One man is blind, another man is lame. Both are useless. But when they combined together the lame man was taken by the blind man. So the lame man has got eyes, he was giving direction: "Go this way." So both their work was done. So I say that India is lame and America is blind. Let us combine together. Then we can give a great culture for the benefit of the whole human society. India has no money—lame. And they have got money, but they have no knowledge. So let us combine together. This is logic. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya . *So by this cooperation they have . . . when I was in India I published three parts of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam with great difficulty. And now, since I have gone there, I am publishing every month a book. So on account of their cooperation we are able to publish so many books and organize the sale all over the world. But it is true that this culture is very much welcome all over the world. That is happening. That is real execution of the mission of Kṛṣṇa. Not to keep Kṛṣṇa within the boundaries of certain areas. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā . Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya (BG 14.4). He's the father of all living entities. They should know it. *We have got many other films also—how we are giving protection to the cows in different farms, how we are getting sumptuous milk. Two years ago there was an article in the Navabharat Times in Delhi, big article, one full page, first page. And the heading was that New Vṛndāvana Mein "aadyatmikta ki jamuna, aur doodh*-dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai."("In the Yamuna of spirituality, and a river of milk curd is flowing.") They gave this heading. And they gave all details how the use of the land. New Vrindavan in Virginia, we have got one thousand acre of land, and we are utilizing it. How they are living peacefully. So we want to make an example here with this six hundred acres of land, if it is given to us. Kṛṣṇa's formula is there: annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Produce sufficient quantity of anna . Everyone will be satisfied. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Kṛṣṇa never says by factory bhavanti bhūtāni . (laughter) *Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). This formula should be . . . that is Kṛṣṇa's mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission . . . what to speak of Kṛṣṇa's mission, Kṛṣṇa (loud kirtan). Krishna se hi juda hua hai. Bās. (It is connected to Kṛṣṇa.) Kṛṣṇa, to carry personally, bol rahe hain, (He is saying,) aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ye log kaha rahe hain Krishna Nirakara hai. (These people, they say Kṛṣṇa is formless.) Kṛṣṇa nirākāra . He's personally speaking. And Vyāsadeva writes, bhagavān uvāca . Propaganda phail raha hai Bhagvan kuch hai hi nahi. (Propaganda is spreading that there is no God.)) (indistinct) Om purusham . . . mera dhayn karo, mera kaun hai mante hi nahi. ( Om purusham . . . meditate on Me—who is "Me"? They do not accept.) (break) (loud kirtan ) Idaṁ jñānam ākhyātam ? Iti te jñānam ākhyātam . Iti te jñānam ākhyātam . . . Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā . I'll get it. "Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully and then do what you wish to do." Just see. Kṛṣṇa has explained everything, all confidential. Now consider about it, think about it, and do whatever you like. Yathecchasi tathā. The liberty is there. Whatever you like, you can do. Kṛṣṇa will not force. He can force, but He does not interfere with little liberty. Then he becomes stone. Living entity has got little liberty because he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. When Arjuna was decided, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā , Kṛṣṇa gave him liberty, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). But he voluntarily accepted, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . Find out. This is real religion. "Arjuna said: My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions." That's it. Yes, that is real . . . (indistinct) . . . that is translated in Bengali, *"Now I am prepared, naṣṭo mohaḥ, now my illusion is over." . . . (indistinct) . . . that is perfection. Kṛṣṇa gives you liberty, whatever you like you do. But when you come to the conclusion, "No, I shall do what you say," that is perfection. I can do whatever I like. That liberty is there. But if I accept Kṛṣṇa's instruction, that is bhakti . Find out that verse, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion." This is religion. They are mahātmās . Previous verse? "O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible." That is mahātmā . This is mahātmā . Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha (BG 9.13). Find out this . . . *Daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya*-manaso jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam . Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare. (indistinct background conversation) Śrīla Prabhupāda? This gentleman is the head of the Marwari community, Mr. Dinami. They only speak Hindi. They would like to speak to you, but they don't understand English. No, I can . . . main Hindi mein bol sakta hai. (I can speak in Hindi.) (loud kirtana ) (break) Hindi mein bol sakta hai maharaj? (Can Mahārāja speak in Hindi?) Maharaj ji Hindi mein bolenge. (Mahārāja will speak in Hindi.) Unless one is enthused, he cannot preach. It is not possible. I went there when I was about seventy years old. I was sitting in Vṛndāvana. So I thought that "My Guru Mahārāja wanted me; *Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted me. So in this old age, let me try." . . . (indistinct) . . . but by Kṛṣṇa's grace it became successful. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam , dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam (BG 10.10). So there is good field for propagating this cult. See our young men, they are . . . Udhar sab young men sab sharab chhod raha hai . . . aur idhar sharab pine ko ghum raha hai. Udhar maans chhod raha hai aur idhar maans khane ko dhoond raha hai. Juhu me ek bada sa beef shop aur Hindu log beef khana suru kar diye hain. Ab kya raha gaya hai. (There, all young men are giving up alcohol . . . and here they are roaming to drink alcohol. There they are giving up eating meat and here they are searching to eat meat. In Juhu there is a big beef shop and even the Hindus have started to eat beef.) And I inquired some of the Hindu boys that, "Do you eat beef?" So, they began to smile, then they accepted. Jab maans khata hai to wo beef hua ye hua sab ek hai. (When they eat meat then whether it is beef or some meat, how does it matter.) (break) . . . Mahatma Gandhi ne kaha tha ki . . . band karwa denge. (Mahatma Gandhi had said . . . will be closed.) Keh dene se kya. (Just by saying what will happen.) The platform is finished. Khali bolne se kya hoga? Bangladesh me bolta hai (Prabhupada says Bengali saying) . . . baans hota hai na ek green rahta usko aap bend kar sakte hai aur wo jab yellow ho jata hai . . . . tuchchch . . . toh toot jata hai. Pahle to kuch sikhaya nahi jata hai ab jab yellow ho gaya to usko kya sikhaye. Toot gaya. (Just by saying what will happen? In Bangladesh there is a saying (Bengali saying) bamboo is there when it is green it can be bent but when it becomes yellow then . . . tuchchch . . . then it breaks on bending. Initially nothing is taught, now when these people have become yellow like dry bamboo then what to teach. They break.) Now, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Yathecchasi , yathā icchasi tathā kuru . No, we are ready for that. There is actually no difference at all than what you are saying. As a matter of fact, government is . . . that's what I said, they have started their own society, the society of Kṛṣṇa bhaktas . . . (indistinct) . . . this country, other countries . . . this country itself, it is such a great service. Whole world will accept. This country itself is such a great service. It will require miracle. Iske liye . . . (For this . . .) We can cooperate. *Unless you are so single*-minded it can't be. Therefore you say there is no compromise. Otherwise, if there are compromises, there will be adjustments, it will lead to dilution. We understand. *Compromise has to do. These boys, when they come for initiation, no compromise: "You have to do this. No illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, even up to smoking cigarettes or drinking tea, no gambling. If you accept, then you become my disciple." They accept. No compromise. (indistinct) . . . great coordination, because you are establishing a center here. That will be very good. We are meant for this purpose, coordination, but if you take our . . . (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have taken prasādam? Yes, we did. (minister and temple manager leave) (break) *. . . and he is such a big man that he goes above the ācāryas . Ati*-buddhi . Ati-buddhi galaya dekhe . "If one is overintelligent, hang him." That is a Bengali saying. Ati-buddhi galaya dekhe . If one is unnecessarily over intelligent, just hang him with a rope in the neck. So he is ati-buddhi . Anyway, he was intelligent to purchase. (aside) He thought that it would explain . . . (indistinct) . . . (background conversation) You have to read the subject matter. Even if he thinks that it is written by Bopadeva, such a great knowledge, one has to read. Such great knowledge is not possible by Bopadeva and unless he is incarnation of God, Vyāsadeva. It is said . . . (indistinct) . . . not this . . . (indistinct) Which volume do you want, Prabhupāda? Second volume. Varīyān eṣa . . . Second Canto, Part One, verse one. Find out this. Varīyān eṣa . . . Find out that verse when he says: "I have heard it from my father." Pariniṣṭhito 'pi nairguṇya . The verse begins pariniṣṭhito 'pi nairguṇya . Idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma ? Idaṁ bhāgavatam . . . No, no, before that. Pariniṣṭhito 'pi . The word begins with pariniṣṭhito . Idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma . No? Ah, yes. *"At the end of the Dvāpara*-yuga, I studied this great supplement of Vedic literature of the name Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which is equal to all the Vedas , from my father, Śrīla Dvaipāyana Vyāsadeva." Just see. And these rascals say Bopadeva. The speaker of *Bhāgavatam* , he says that, "I learned it from my father." His father is Vyāsadeva. And these rascals say Bopadeva. Just see. And they are posted in big post. With such nonsense knowledge, they are posted in big post. He does not know who is the author of Bhāgavata . Here it is distinctly said: "I learned it from my father." So his father is Vyāsadeva. You take this verse. If anyone says . . . so Śukadeva Gosvāmī is the speaker of Bhāgavata , he's admitting that "I've learned it from my father." And where the Bopadeva comes? Is that right? Yes, right. I was trying . . . that if I began to oppose him, then he would not take the book. No, no. Scholarly. Just present that here is the . . . Śukadeva Gosvāmī is the speaker of *Bhāgavatam* . He says: "I learned it from my father." And who is his father? Bopadeva or Vyāsadeva? This is going on. That is finished . . . (indistinct) Yes. Only two of them. One of them is here, but he was not at home, and the other one is out of station. So we'll get their signature when they come. Two of them have signed. *Yes. Hariprasad and Shrinivas, they have both signed. And Shri Krishnan*-dyuta, he's here but he was not at home or something. He'll sign? Yes. He will do whatever Hariprasad says, and Omkar Lal is the youngest brother, so he will also sign. Shall I keep this, or would you like to keep it here? As you like. You can keep it. I'll lock it up. What is that? Group? (indistinct comments by devotees) (pause) When I speak to some of these archaeologists that I meet, these professors, I ask them do they believe in the historical validity of this *Mahābhārata* and *Bhāgavatam* , and they say: "Personally, I believe, but officially we have to follow the archaeology, the techniques of measuring the time." So they have two faces: one for official life and one for personal life. Duplicity. Duplicity. Yes. But there are some of them who are trying to prove also that the *Mahābhārata* was historical. *Mahābhārata* , that very name suggests history. "Bigger India." Mahā means bigger, and Bhārata means India. Can you answer? *There is one verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā , in Chapter Seven: *The meaning of this verse is that all living beings in the material world are born into delusion, overcome by the duality of desire and hate. So the fact is that the living entity, he desires to become great. Just like God is very great, so the living entity wants to imitate God, and therefore he comes in this material world, and he tries to become great and very powerful. This is desire. He tries to enjoy himself. And also icchā*-dveṣa : he becomes envious of the Lord. Most people . . . many people in the material world, they don't like to admit that God exists or that there is someone greater than themselves, because they think themselves to be the greatest. This is the disease of material life. But the cure for this disease that we have to accept . . . You know that? There are so many rascals, they say: "I'm God." You know that? That is the problem. If somebody says: "I am God," is it a fact? But he says like that. He's such a rascal. That is the point. In spite of all falsehood, people accept him as God. Rascals. Some people, they are . . . (indistinct) This man has come to read the Oriya book. He can read Oriya. So . . . he wanted someone to translate. They have come. Where is that Oriya book? Find out. The one Gargamuni . . . Yes. Orissan language, Orissan language. (loud kirtan ) . . . (indistinct) Do you think that realization is good, if anyone realizes that he is God? Do you think he has actually realized anything? . . . (indistinct) What is the proof? Everyone can say, "I am God," but where is the proof? He must act like God. If somebody says, "I am the richest man," simply this statement will do, or we must see how he is rich? (pause) Hmm. Give him. You can read. (indistinct) . . . Founder Śrī Śrīmad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda . . . Hmm, (loud kirtana ). (indistinct) . . . founder Śrī Śrīmad . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- August 24, 1976, Hyderabad (Meeting with Endowments Commissioner) But we are so . . . (aside) You can keep it there now. Keep. So we do not believe in these things, that there is Bhagavān, and Bhagavān comes, He has got a mission. Do you believe in these things? Frankly speaking, do you believe in these things? We do. We do believe. We feel it also in our body. Then you must act according to His mission. According to His mission. The mission is, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata ( BG 4.7). When we are engaged in glānir dharma , which is not dharma —cheating. Glānir , glānir . What is the glānir ? Hatred. Hatred. No. Glānir means which is abominable. Abominable. *Yes. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). So what is that glānir ? Glānir means . . . dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , there is . . . Yamarāja said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam . Dharma cannot be manufactured by any man. (aside) You have got Sixth Canto? Sixth Canto, Third Chapter, nineteenth verse. *Yes, find this verse. Yamarāja said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam . Even the demigods, they cannot manufacture dharma . "Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great ṛṣis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras , ordinary human beings, Vidyādharas and Cāraṇas." *Nobody can. This is the principle. So when so many rascal dharma is introduced, that is dharmasya glāniḥ. So we must know this. Then we can understand what is the mission of Bhagavān. When rascals are introducing so*-called so many dharmas , that is dharmasya glāniḥ . Do you accept or not? Yes, we accept. *Therefore, Bhagavān concludes at the end, "You rascal, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66)." This is dharma . To surrender to the Lord, that is dharma . And in another place, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Without this, all cheating. If there is no bhakti , surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all these kind of dharmas , they're all cheating. Therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). On this, Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented, atra mokṣa vañca api nirastam . Dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41,CC Ādi 1.90). So according to this principle, they're all cheating. So-called religious system, artha , economic development, sense gratification. Just like that we have created so many social dharma : saṁsāra-dharma , gṛhastha-dharma , this dharma , that dharma . So in that way, they're all cheating. Therefore, our request is that yajñārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). In the Bālajī's temple, mostly poor cultivators, I have seen, they go. And they want to give something to the Lord. Yajñārthe . So the karmīs , they're advised, yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad arpaṇam , "Give Me." So these karmīs , somehow or other, by their great fortune they're giving something to the Lord. Yajñārthe . (someone enters) Aiye . That money should not be utilized for any other purpose. That is our mission. It must be utilized for the purpose to fulfill the mission of the Lord. Mission of the Lord is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66): how people can be trained up to give up all these nonsensical type of dharma, and how to become a devotee of Lord. For this purpose this money should be spent. Then it will be all right. Mostly it is utilized for that. Almost completely. Only one or two is mere, what is called, charity. The industry . . . there's been a wrong impression that we are working directly with industry. *No, no. That is . . . it should be utilized simply for the purpose of awakening the devotional, what is called, inspiration. For no other purpose. Just like in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said, nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Kṛṣṇa-bhakti , nitya-siddha . This is our natural. Just like these Europeans and Americans, they have become kṛṣṇa-bhaktas . So what business they had to do with Kṛṣṇa? They're coming from Christian family, Jewish families, or some of them Muhammadan family. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṇa? They haven't got to do anything with Kṛṣṇa. So how they have become a kṛṣṇa-bhakta ? Even the . . . just like he is coming from Parsi family, he is coming from Jewish family, he is coming from Christian family, he is coming from Europe, he is coming from America. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṇa? We Indians, or Hindus, we may have some concern with Kṛṣṇa, but what they have got? They haven't got anything to do with Kṛṣṇa. Now you pay them one lakh of rupees and ask them, "You become again Christian. You become again Parsi." Just see. Make them again Christian. Practical. These are young boys. You ask them that, "I'll give you good girl, I'll give you good money. You give up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, come here." Ask them. Make a test. They'll refuse, they'll kick out. How they have become? Therefore it is a fact, as it is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta , kṛṣṇa-bhakti nitya-siddha . Everyone has got kṛṣṇa-bhakti eternally. It is not artificial. They have not become kṛṣṇa-bhakta artificially. It is the eternal link that has been awakened. There's no doubt of that, Swāmījī. Let us say there are hundred leprosy patients. There are one thousand orphans. We put them there, give them food, and make them pray to Kṛṣṇa . . . *Well, you are . . . they are mistaken. But if you have to awaken kṛṣṇa*-bhakti , why you go to the lepers? No, they have come here. They are all there in the temple. They are not allowing others to pray properly. They are all, one thousand . . . in the past . . . *We have no objection, that . . . because our principle is kṛṣṇa*-bhakti nitya-siddha . So kṛṣṇa-bhakti is there in everyone. So leper or non-leper. Just like our Vivekananda, he took up daridra-nārāyaṇa . This is an absurd proposition. Nārāyaṇa is never daridra . But if you put this argument, that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, so if Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, why you take up only daridra-nārāyaṇa ? Why not dhanī-nārāyaṇa also? If you have got so broad vision that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, therefore we see everyone, so why you particularly take the daridra-nārāyaṇa ? Similarly, kṛṣṇa-bhakti is everywhere. It is in the leper or non-leper. So why should we take particularly the leper? So that is outwardly a social service, that they are taking care of the leper. So if that vision, it will not be right. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti even requires . . . even a karmī like big, big owner of factories, he's more diseased than the leper, because he has no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . So we have to take care of the leper and the richest man also if he has no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . That also. That also. No, therefore we should not make any distinction that only the lepers will be taken care of. Again, let's say a rich man or somebody comes, prays . . . Everyone is more than leper. He takes prasāda in the temple, he goes. But this man is not allowed. He can't come. Therefore God goes to him. *We have to take . . . you cannot manufacture where God goes. You should have to take lesson from God. That is one thing. If we manufacture ideas, that will never be successful. That will never be successful. Don't manufacture ideas. If you want to be servant of God, you must take instruction from God. That is wanted. You cannot manufacture idea, that "God wants this." So first of all try to understand what is God's mission. God's mission is, it is clearly said, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). So, more or less, everyone is entangled with this glānir dharma . They have manufactured. Just like the demigod worship. This is a glānir dharma . Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). And Kṛṣṇa clearly says, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). *So if you want to utilize, people are giving in good faith, Bālajī, Kṛṣṇa, their hard*-earned money, whatever we are giving something. Yajña , that is wanted. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). That money should not be utilized for any other purpose except yajña . First of all, you have to decide like that. Then we can give you direction. First of all, you have to decide that this money, not a single farthing should be spent for any other purpose than performing yajña . Then we can give you right direction. And if you have plan to utilize this money for any other purpose, that is not Kṛṣṇa's mission; *that is your mission. So first of all you have to decide whether you are going to execute Kṛṣṇa's mission or your mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission is very clearly defined. It is there. Everything is declared there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . We can do it very nicely. But if you want to do any other mission, then you can do. You are government, you are in power, you can do that. But that will not be pleasing to Kṛṣṇa. He has got a mission. That is stated: dharmasya glānir bhavati . So any dharma , so-called dharma , which does not awaken their Kṛṣṇa consciousness is glāniḥ . Kṛṣṇa does not want that. If you're against the will of Kṛṣṇa, against the mission of Kṛṣṇa, if you want to do something, you can do it. People are doing so many things. That is also mentioned by Kṛṣṇa. Iti te jñānam . . . (BG 18.63). No. That one verse is that one does not . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is that, "Surrender unto Me." Now, who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa? That is stated by Kṛṣṇa: *Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he must be grouped either duṣkṛtina , mūḍha , narādhama , māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna , āsuraṁ bhāvam . We do that. Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he must be grouped among them. And for them, what is their . . . tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram . (aside) Find out this verse, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān . . . if anyone is envious of Kṛṣṇa, then what is his punishment? This is their punishment. "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence into various demoniac species of life." And next verse? "Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence." So this is my request, that our money . . . there is nothing "Our money", everything Kṛṣṇa's. But we are thinking, because we are asuric. So asuras think like that. Just like Kaṁsa, Hiraṇyakaśipu: "Hah!" Rāvaṇa: "Hah! What is Rāma?" That is asura's. They think like that, and that is asuric. But otherwise, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore yajña is advised. The sooner you hand over Kṛṣṇa's property to Kṛṣṇa, it is good for you. *Swāmījī, we are karma*-yogīs . We start the day with surrendering to God and asking Him to show us the way. Beyond that, I don't know what our duty . . . *But a karma*-yogī , why you should take Kṛṣṇa's money for karma? For what? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . that is for . . . That is the . . . It is not used. As you have correctly said, that way only it is used. There may be different . . . *No, the first thing is that if you decide that Kṛṣṇa's money should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's mission, so Kṛṣṇa's mission is this, that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). You have to bring them to the sense of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And there is a process. You cannot manufacture that process. You have to take the process from Kṛṣṇa. That Kṛṣṇa says: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. You have to teach people how he can think of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā . Then the mission is there. That is Kṛṣṇa also. Kṛṣṇa says: *You have to teach them like that. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām , as we are doing. We're always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But if you manufacture in your own way, that you can do. Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ na sa siddhim avāpnoti (BG 16.23). That will never be successful. If you have to execute the mission of Kṛṣṇa, you have to take instruction of Kṛṣṇa and do it rigidly. Then you'll be successful. Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is that one must know Kṛṣṇa and surrender to Him. This is mission. Kṛṣṇa does not say that by karma-yoga one can understand Him. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). You cannot say, "We are karma-yogīs ." Karma-yogī means the third class. He's karmī , and little mixed up with bhakti . Adulterated. Jñāna-yogī , he's not a bhakta . He's jñānī , but just to bring him gradually, a little bhakti . You see? And real bhakti is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). When it will be tintless of any karma and jñāna , then it is pure bhakti . That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Not mixed up with jñāna , karma , yoga . Otherwise, how Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti ? He could have said, "Any way," as these rascals say, "Any way go, you will get Kṛṣṇa." That Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ (BG 7.3). Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). So that tattva , bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). So we have to take this. You manufacture in your own way, and still you carry out the mission of Kṛṣṇa—that is contradiction. You have to take the lesson from Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be successful. Karma-yoga is for the third class. They are addicted to karma , a little bhakti , that's all. That is not pure. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). When there is not a tinge of karma and jñāna , that is pure bhakti . That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. *So everything is there, direction is there. We can guide you—not according to our whims, but according to śāstra . And if you agree to accept, then we can also cooperate with you. But if you manufacture your own way, then how we can possibly . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is this: yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). Except kṛṣṇa*-bhakti , bhaktyā , everything is glāniḥ . All glāniḥ . And that can be awakened, kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Just like these boys are doing. That is enunciated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta : nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa—everyone has kṛṣṇa-bhakti . You have to awaken simply. Nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema sādhya kabhu naya (CC Madhya 22.107). It is not artificial. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya . If the hearing about Kṛṣṇa is pure . . . that is also confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : *So we have to follow this formula. This is śāstra*-viddhi : one step to another. And if you don't care for the śāstra-viddhi , we can do that, but na siddhiṁ na avāpnoti : it will never be successful. It will be a show, big show, but there will be no siddhi . (pause) *If you want to do according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, our cent percent cooperation will be there. We'll not touch a single farthing of your money, but we can give you direction, "Spend it like that." And government men, you can see that we are not touching a single farthing of your money, but it is being spent for Kṛṣṇa's mission. That you can believe. It is the duty of the government men to see that people may not misrepresent. That is the Vedic injunction. Pṛthu Mahārāja was to see that a brāhmin is doing, acting like brāhmin , kṣatriya is doing like kṣatriya . So it is government's duty to see that Bālajī's money, Kṛṣṇa's money, is to the farthing spent for His mission. That is your duty. That is government's duty, that nothing is misused, nothing is misrepresented. But we know how to execute the mission of Kṛṣṇa. Everyone can know, because direction is there. It is not a secret thing. It is open secret. But you have to act. That requires faith. And so far my experience goes, the whole world will take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unfortunately, I am struggling single*-handed. And they are criticizing me in the Parliament. You have seen the recent article Blitz against me? What is that heading? "Ungodly face." I am doing ungodly? But they are advertising like that, trying to make me unpopular. The Māyāvādīs, they say that Bhaktivedanta Swami is ruining Hinduism. They are saying like that . . . Bolta hai ki nahi? . . . mayavadi saying like this? (Saying like this or not? . . . mayavadi is saying like this?) So I am being criticized in Parliament, I am criticized by the so-called jagad-gurus who have never seen what is jagat . And so on, so on. No, for a country suffering from multiplicity of gods, Hinduism, you are doing a very great service, asking them to concentrate on Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . only God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). How you are enlightening them, it is a very great service. No doubt about that actually. They don't know. And you are making the man, the human being, a servant of that God . . . (indistinct) . . . divinity. This is not my manufacture. Śāstra says, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . They have said so many things in the name of śāstra . They have said so many things in the name of śāstra . That you are making it one is very good. *No, those who are approved śāstra is accepted by the ācāryas . Śāstra , which is accepted by the ācārya , that is śāstra . You cannot make. As you cannot manufacture religion, you cannot manufacture śāstras . Approved by the ācāryas . Ācāryopāsanam . Therefore Kṛṣṇa says also that you should know from the ācārya . Everyone, they are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā with the purpose of killing Kṛṣṇa. Everyone. The politicians, the scholars, the rascals and everyone. The main purpose is how to kill Kṛṣṇa. In Bombay I have got a very big friend, you know him. I do not wish to disclose his name. He has set aside ten lakhs of rupees from preaching Gītā . But he wants Gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Rāma without Sītā. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā; Rāma will remain alone. So take away Gītā and cut Kṛṣṇa. But I cannot make any compromise. I shall . . . my life is ended; *now I'm eighty*-one. I do not know . . . but so long I shall live, I shall make no compromise, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svaya m (SB 1.3.28). Dṛḍha-vrata . And that is a fact. Why shall I mislead people? They are searching after God, what is God. Here is God. Why don't you take it? See His activities. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47). Tally with the formula of God, you see Kṛṣṇa is there. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . So whatever teeny effort I have got, I shall try to establish temples of Kṛṣṇa all over the world with my teeny income. I have got book sales. Kṛṣṇa has given me very good chance. It is beyond any dream. We are selling books sixty thousand dollars daily. Six lakhs about. Thirty thousand dollars. Sixty thousand dollars. Yes, daily. And we are known the topmost publisher of religious and philosophical books in the world. And we are approved . . . our books are approved by the greatest learned scholars of all universities. Because they are seeing a new light. No hodgepodge philosophy. India also, wherever we are going. Now he has come . . . within how many days? Within a month. Yes, one month, in Uttar Pradesh . . . He has got seventy standing orders. Our books are, say, eighty. So eighty books, say, average five dollars. So eighty books, five dollars means . . . Four hundred dollars. Four hundred dollars. Such seventy orders. Four hundred by seventy. He has secured order in one month, seventy orders. In one place. Standing orders. "Whatever is published, give us, and then others, when they will be published, send also." They have not seen even the books. This is practical pracāra , giving of books. No librarian, no university, no scholar, no professor is refusing. As soon as we go, "Oh, yes, bring. We shall take." So I am bringing money from the foreign countries by my selling books, and they are criticizing me that I am CIA. (laughter) Just see the fun. And there is nobody to give me protection. Not Lord giving protection? (laughter) No, Lord giving, giving. That I am confident. Because they are envious, "How Bhaktivedanta Swami is getting so much money? He's paying crores and crores. There must be some political . . ." As they are getting from Russia. But actually, I am selling. I am working night, writing these books, and these boys are helping me to sell it. I am getting enough money to spend it. What is my fault? For Kṛṣṇa's sake we have sacrificed everything, our life and everything, and Kṛṣṇa is giving us money and we are spending it, and they are criticizing in the Parliament. This is my misfortune. I don't take it as misfortune. Because asuras are always there. Even Kṛṣṇa's time. They are criticizing, but not . . . Because we are getting so much money. For this temple we have to spend . . . ten lakhs ? Twelve lakhs . Twelve lakhs . So by selling my books. And I have sent him more than four lakhs , five lakhs from foreign countries. This is my fault. Similarly, in Bombay we are spending every month seven lakhs regularly. That is coming from foreign countries. And they are thinking that I'm taking bribe and acting as CIA. Just see. And CIA have become Vaiṣṇavas with long śikhā and giving up all facilities of life, and they are dancing with the CIA. People have no common sense that CIA agent could stay in a nice hotel and enjoy life. Why so much vairāgya ? Even my Godbrothers said that American government has given me two crores of rupees. Now we are planning to have a temple in Māyāpur where . . . what is, what is the economic estimates, where we shall spend how much money monthly? Two hundred thousand dollars monthly. Two hundred thousand dollars monthly. Navadwip, mayapur me. (In Navadwip, Māyāpur.) Two hundred thousand. (break) Nobody will be able to check it. He'll go on. That is Kṛṣṇa. Here is Dictaphone. I work at night. I get up at half past twelve, one, and I write books. And daytime I'm engaged. And daily either ten page, twenty page written, that is sent to Los Angeles. You have seen our Press? And they take care. How our books printed, have you got that film? I have it in 16mm. Yes. Why don't you show? Just now? Yes. It will take little . . . (indistinct background conversation about projectors) I don't have a Fairchild. I have it in 16mm film. That's all right. But the Press . . . Yes, the Press film. You can show, they'll be . . . (background talk about projectors) How in the American industrial process we are printing our books. I made the Book Trust, sixty thousand dollars they are selling. So as author, I could have derived from them at least six thousand, ten percent minimum. Six thousand dollars per day. Six thousand dollars means sixty thousand rupees. That could have been my daily income. But I take little khicuṛi from them, that's all. (Harikeśa laughing) Two crores per year, it comes to . . . Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . he was last month at Los Angeles. Yes. (pause) Our farming projects, very successful. Now here, Badrukajī is also giving us some land. Aiye . . . bathiye. (Come . . . sit.) (someone arrives) (background conversation) Vāsughoṣa. So we have got big program. Any amount of money you bring to us, we shall spend it immediately. (background conversation) (pause) (loud kīrtana in background) (break) *There is a logic, andha*-paṅgu-nyāya . One man is blind, another man is lame. Both are useless. But when they combined together the lame man was taken by the blind man. So the lame man has got eyes, he was giving direction: "Go this way." So both their work was done. So I say that India is lame and America is blind. Let us combine together. Then we can give a great culture for the benefit of the whole human society. India has no money—lame. And they have got money, but they have no knowledge. So let us combine together. This is logic. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya . *So by this cooperation they have . . . when I was in India I published three parts of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam with great difficulty. And now, since I have gone there, I am publishing every month a book. So on account of their cooperation we are able to publish so many books and organize the sale all over the world. But it is true that this culture is very much welcome all over the world. That is happening. That is real execution of the mission of Kṛṣṇa. Not to keep Kṛṣṇa within the boundaries of certain areas. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā . Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya (BG 14.4). He's the father of all living entities. They should know it. *We have got many other films also—how we are giving protection to the cows in different farms, how we are getting sumptuous milk. Two years ago there was an article in the Navabharat Times in Delhi, big article, one full page, first page. And the heading was that New Vṛndāvana Mein "aadyatmikta ki jamuna, aur doodh*-dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai."("In the Yamuna of spirituality, and a river of milk curd is flowing.") They gave this heading. And they gave all details how the use of the land. New Vrindavan in Virginia, we have got one thousand acre of land, and we are utilizing it. How they are living peacefully. So we want to make an example here with this six hundred acres of land, if it is given to us. Kṛṣṇa's formula is there: annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Produce sufficient quantity of anna . Everyone will be satisfied. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Kṛṣṇa never says by factory bhavanti bhūtāni . (laughter) *Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). This formula should be . . . that is Kṛṣṇa's mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission . . . what to speak of Kṛṣṇa's mission, Kṛṣṇa (loud kirtan). Krishna se hi juda hua hai. Bās. (It is connected to Kṛṣṇa.) Kṛṣṇa, to carry personally, bol rahe hain, (He is saying,) aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ye log kaha rahe hain Krishna Nirakara hai. (These people, they say Kṛṣṇa is formless.) Kṛṣṇa nirākāra . He's personally speaking. And Vyāsadeva writes, bhagavān uvāca . Propaganda phail raha hai Bhagvan kuch hai hi nahi. (Propaganda is spreading that there is no God.)) (indistinct) Om purusham . . . mera dhayn karo, mera kaun hai mante hi nahi. ( Om purusham . . . meditate on Me—who is "Me"? They do not accept.) (break) (loud kirtan ) Idaṁ jñānam ākhyātam ? Iti te jñānam ākhyātam . Iti te jñānam ākhyātam . . . Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā . I'll get it. "Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully and then do what you wish to do." Just see. Kṛṣṇa has explained everything, all confidential. Now consider about it, think about it, and do whatever you like. Yathecchasi tathā. The liberty is there. Whatever you like, you can do. Kṛṣṇa will not force. He can force, but He does not interfere with little liberty. Then he becomes stone. Living entity has got little liberty because he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. When Arjuna was decided, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā , Kṛṣṇa gave him liberty, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). But he voluntarily accepted, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . Find out. This is real religion. "Arjuna said: My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions." That's it. Yes, that is real . . . (indistinct) . . . that is translated in Bengali, *"Now I am prepared, naṣṭo mohaḥ, now my illusion is over." . . . (indistinct) . . . that is perfection. Kṛṣṇa gives you liberty, whatever you like you do. But when you come to the conclusion, "No, I shall do what you say," that is perfection. I can do whatever I like. That liberty is there. But if I accept Kṛṣṇa's instruction, that is bhakti . Find out that verse, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion." This is religion. They are mahātmās . Previous verse? "O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible." That is mahātmā . This is mahātmā . Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha (BG 9.13). Find out this . . . *Daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya*-manaso jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam . Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare. (indistinct background conversation) Śrīla Prabhupāda? This gentleman is the head of the Marwari community, Mr. Dinami. They only speak Hindi. They would like to speak to you, but they don't understand English. No, I can . . . main Hindi mein bol sakta hai. (I can speak in Hindi.) (loud kirtana ) (break) Hindi mein bol sakta hai maharaj? (Can Mahārāja speak in Hindi?) Maharaj ji Hindi mein bolenge. (Mahārāja will speak in Hindi.) Unless one is enthused, he cannot preach. It is not possible. I went there when I was about seventy years old. I was sitting in Vṛndāvana. So I thought that "My Guru Mahārāja wanted me; *Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted me. So in this old age, let me try." . . . (indistinct) . . . but by Kṛṣṇa's grace it became successful. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam , dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam (BG 10.10). So there is good field for propagating this cult. See our young men, they are . . . Udhar sab young men sab sharab chhod raha hai . . . aur idhar sharab pine ko ghum raha hai. Udhar maans chhod raha hai aur idhar maans khane ko dhoond raha hai. Juhu me ek bada sa beef shop aur Hindu log beef khana suru kar diye hain. Ab kya raha gaya hai. (There, all young men are giving up alcohol . . . and here they are roaming to drink alcohol. There they are giving up eating meat and here they are searching to eat meat. In Juhu there is a big beef shop and even the Hindus have started to eat beef.) And I inquired some of the Hindu boys that, "Do you eat beef?" So, they began to smile, then they accepted. Jab maans khata hai to wo beef hua ye hua sab ek hai. (When they eat meat then whether it is beef or some meat, how does it matter.) (break) . . . Mahatma Gandhi ne kaha tha ki . . . band karwa denge. (Mahatma Gandhi had said . . . will be closed.) Keh dene se kya. (Just by saying what will happen.) The platform is finished. Khali bolne se kya hoga? Bangladesh me bolta hai (Prabhupada says Bengali saying) . . . baans hota hai na ek green rahta usko aap bend kar sakte hai aur wo jab yellow ho jata hai . . . . tuchchch . . . toh toot jata hai. Pahle to kuch sikhaya nahi jata hai ab jab yellow ho gaya to usko kya sikhaye. Toot gaya. (Just by saying what will happen? In Bangladesh there is a saying (Bengali saying) bamboo is there when it is green it can be bent but when it becomes yellow then . . . tuchchch . . . then it breaks on bending. Initially nothing is taught, now when these people have become yellow like dry bamboo then what to teach. They break.) Now, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Yathecchasi , yathā icchasi tathā kuru . No, we are ready for that. There is actually no difference at all than what you are saying. As a matter of fact, government is . . . that's what I said, they have started their own society, the society of Kṛṣṇa bhaktas . . . (indistinct) . . . this country, other countries . . . this country itself, it is such a great service. Whole world will accept. This country itself is such a great service. It will require miracle. Iske liye . . . (For this . . .) We can cooperate. *Unless you are so single*-minded it can't be. Therefore you say there is no compromise. Otherwise, if there are compromises, there will be adjustments, it will lead to dilution. We understand. *Compromise has to do. These boys, when they come for initiation, no compromise: "You have to do this. No illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, even up to smoking cigarettes or drinking tea, no gambling. If you accept, then you become my disciple." They accept. No compromise. (indistinct) . . . great coordination, because you are establishing a center here. That will be very good. We are meant for this purpose, coordination, but if you take our . . . (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have taken prasādam? Yes, we did. (minister and temple manager leave) (break) *. . . and he is such a big man that he goes above the ācāryas . Ati*-buddhi . Ati-buddhi galaya dekhe . "If one is overintelligent, hang him." That is a Bengali saying. Ati-buddhi galaya dekhe . If one is unnecessarily over intelligent, just hang him with a rope in the neck. So he is ati-buddhi . Anyway, he was intelligent to purchase. (aside) He thought that it would explain . . . (indistinct) . . . (background conversation) You have to read the subject matter. Even if he thinks that it is written by Bopadeva, such a great knowledge, one has to read. Such great knowledge is not possible by Bopadeva and unless he is incarnation of God, Vyāsadeva. It is said . . . (indistinct) . . . not this . . . (indistinct) Which volume do you want, Prabhupāda? Second volume. Varīyān eṣa . . . Second Canto, Part One, verse one. Find out this. Varīyān eṣa . . . Find out that verse when he says: "I have heard it from my father." Pariniṣṭhito 'pi nairguṇya . The verse begins pariniṣṭhito 'pi nairguṇya . Idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma ? Idaṁ bhāgavatam . . . No, no, before that. Pariniṣṭhito 'pi . The word begins with pariniṣṭhito . Idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma . No? Ah, yes. *"At the end of the Dvāpara*-yuga, I studied this great supplement of Vedic literature of the name Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which is equal to all the Vedas , from my father, Śrīla Dvaipāyana Vyāsadeva." Just see. And these rascals say Bopadeva. The speaker of *Bhāgavatam* , he says that, "I learned it from my father." His father is Vyāsadeva. And these rascals say Bopadeva. Just see. And they are posted in big post. With such nonsense knowledge, they are posted in big post. He does not know who is the author of Bhāgavata . Here it is distinctly said: "I learned it from my father." So his father is Vyāsadeva. You take this verse. If anyone says . . . so Śukadeva Gosvāmī is the speaker of Bhāgavata , he's admitting that "I've learned it from my father." And where the Bopadeva comes? Is that right? Yes, right. I was trying . . . that if I began to oppose him, then he would not take the book. No, no. Scholarly. Just present that here is the . . . Śukadeva Gosvāmī is the speaker of *Bhāgavatam* . He says: "I learned it from my father." And who is his father? Bopadeva or Vyāsadeva? This is going on. That is finished . . . (indistinct) Yes. Only two of them. One of them is here, but he was not at home, and the other one is out of station. So we'll get their signature when they come. Two of them have signed. *Yes. Hariprasad and Shrinivas, they have both signed. And Shri Krishnan*-dyuta, he's here but he was not at home or something. He'll sign? Yes. He will do whatever Hariprasad says, and Omkar Lal is the youngest brother, so he will also sign. Shall I keep this, or would you like to keep it here? As you like. You can keep it. I'll lock it up. What is that? Group? (indistinct comments by devotees) (pause) When I speak to some of these archaeologists that I meet, these professors, I ask them do they believe in the historical validity of this *Mahābhārata* and *Bhāgavatam* , and they say: "Personally, I believe, but officially we have to follow the archaeology, the techniques of measuring the time." So they have two faces: one for official life and one for personal life. Duplicity. Duplicity. Yes. But there are some of them who are trying to prove also that the *Mahābhārata* was historical. *Mahābhārata* , that very name suggests history. "Bigger India." Mahā means bigger, and Bhārata means India. Can you answer? *There is one verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā , in Chapter Seven: *The meaning of this verse is that all living beings in the material world are born into delusion, overcome by the duality of desire and hate. So the fact is that the living entity, he desires to become great. Just like God is very great, so the living entity wants to imitate God, and therefore he comes in this material world, and he tries to become great and very powerful. This is desire. He tries to enjoy himself. And also icchā*-dveṣa : he becomes envious of the Lord. Most people . . . many people in the material world, they don't like to admit that God exists or that there is someone greater than themselves, because they think themselves to be the greatest. This is the disease of material life. But the cure for this disease that we have to accept . . . You know that? There are so many rascals, they say: "I'm God." You know that? That is the problem. If somebody says: "I am God," is it a fact? But he says like that. He's such a rascal. That is the point. In spite of all falsehood, people accept him as God. Rascals. Some people, they are . . . (indistinct) This man has come to read the Oriya book. He can read Oriya. So . . . he wanted someone to translate. They have come. Where is that Oriya book? Find out. The one Gargamuni . . . Yes. Orissan language, Orissan language. (loud kirtan ) . . . (indistinct) Do you think that realization is good, if anyone realizes that he is God? Do you think he has actually realized anything? . . . (indistinct) What is the proof? Everyone can say, "I am God," but where is the proof? He must act like God. If somebody says, "I am the richest man," simply this statement will do, or we must see how he is rich? (pause) Hmm. Give him. You can read. (indistinct) . . . Founder Śrī Śrīmad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda . . . Hmm, (loud kirtana ). (indistinct) . . . founder Śrī Śrīmad . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- August 25, 1976, Hyderabad I am sitting in this room. Yes. And if by force you drag me away, I shall go to another room. Because I'll have another room. But because you have forcibly driven me away, you are criminal. Similarly, a living entity is ordained to live in a certain body for a certain period. If you kill, that is the interference with his staying there. You are criminal. Yes, that is true. The soul is never killed. Never killed. But because you have forcibly driven away from that body, you become criminal. That is the philosophy. Yes. Now, assuming . . . So you cannot do that. Assuming that, everyone . . . Not assuming. This is the fact. (laughter) No, assuming this end. I am putting a question. Every man who took part in the Kurukṣetra war, assuming that they are to be killed, they are destined to be killed. Then when they are killed, then Kṛṣṇa's argument is the soul . . . the body perishes but the soul is eternal. Soul is eternal . . . . . . the soul. How you are reconciling it if you say that the . . . I mean what a man is different from Kṛṣṇa? Or ātmā is different from Paramātmā? If you say that, then how do you say that ātmā is eternal? And what is the fate of the ātmā ? No, ātmā is eternal. That is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Why don't you understand? Ātmā is eternal, God is eternal. But the difference is, next line, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . That one ātmā , God, He is maintaining others, and the others are being maintained. So how you can make equal the maintainer and the maintained? First of all, try to understand. The question is, even if you take it, advaita philosophy also, there is a . . . the ātmā has to go and merge with the Paramātmā, but they didn't say that they're equal. I don't think even the advaita philosophy also . . . How they can be equal? They cannot be, cannot be. Cannot be, yes. But they say equal. No. They don't say that equal. Yes, he says like that. . . . (indistinct) He doesn't say anywhere, also nobody should say that. The . . . (indistinct) . . . recently said that. Don't take it from one sentence and try to enlarge it. Take it in the context. They always say this. *I do not hear. You hear, he hears. If he says something else . . . that . . . this is therefore Caitanya's philosophy is acintya*-bhedābheda, that as ātmā , they're equal. Ātmā . But one is Paramātmā, because He is maintainer. Therefore . . . Yes. All the creation, the world, it is one way out of that Paramātmā. Paramātmā. So therefore Paramātmā is the Supreme, and he is subordinate. So how the Supreme and subordinate can be equal? No, they can never be equal. Never be equal and never and . . . no philosophy, even any branch of philosophy, does not say that a human being is equal to . . . No, their philosophy is, as you said, that this subordinate ātmā has forgotten that he is Paramātmā. Yes, it is a main point. The seeker has forgotten that he is the sought. He has forgotten means simply the potential that you have within you, you have to realize it and come closer to the Paramātmā. That is what it means . . . If you have got the potency to become Paramātmā, then how you became ātmā ? Yes. The potential to come near to Paramātmā. Near, that is one thing. You are near to me. That means we are not equal. You are a separate person, I am a separate person. But even what has been told by him, he is Veda , Vedāntī , anybody, he doesn't come to ātmā is going to Paramātmā. He never says that. That mathematic equation . . . They say that the ātmā has forgotten. They say that ātmā has come into the clutches of the māyā . When you get rid of the māyā you become Paramātmā. That is not . . . you don't become Paramātmā. You become Paramātmā means that . . . you don't understand Paramātmā. Paramātmā is the Supreme, Supreme Soul. How can you become . . . Then you have to accept Paramātmā and ātmā different. Different, that is true. *Then dvaita*-vāda. Where is advaita ? Even dvaita does not, something different from advaitam , in this particular fundamental. But even advaitam does not say that ātmā is equal to Paramātmā. He never says that. You have māyā . Māyā will be field to you, and that you get rid of that māyā and you try to elevate your soul to the ātmā . And you come, go to the Paramātmā. *That is the beginning of spiritual lesson. Because that is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā . Every one of us, we are identifying with this body. Just like if somebody asks what you are, "I am Mr. Such-and-such, I am Indian, I am this, I am that." He is giving identification of the body. But that he is not. He's not this body. That is self-realization. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā , dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13)—two things— deha , this body, and asmin dehe , there is dehinaḥ , the owner of the body. That is the beginning of spiritual education. Because generally almost 99.9% people, they are thinking that "I am this body." Well, that is true, that is . . . So that is another thing. That attachment to the . . . Yes. That attachment or no attachment, he is different from the body. That is the first lesson of spiritual education, that one has to understand that he is not the body. That is Brahman realization. No, after having realized that, we have to discipline ourselves so much. *Now that individual soul and the Supreme Soul, Paramātmā, they are also different. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā in the Second Chapter. Kṛṣṇa says: "My dear Arjuna, both you, Me and all these persons who are assembled here, we existed in the past, and we are existing now, and we shall continue to exist." So when they become one? Past, present and future. As they were different persons in the past, they are different persons now, and they will continue to remain different persons in the future. So when they become one? Now we take it, small particles of water makes an ocean. That cannot be. Here Kṛṣṇa says that we shall remain like this in the future. We can't get new to be . . . No, there is no amalgamation. It is clearly stated. Even a drop of water, when you take it from the glass and put it on this one, another drop of water will come, and when you put it in medicine it won't come in water. Like that, ātmā , will it not merge with the Paramātmā? That water is matter, that is not spirit. But we are talking of spirit. You cannot bring matter. No, that analogy cannot be, because similarity. The water is different—matter. And you are talking of spirit souls. Here it is stated that the spirit soul individually, they'll never amalgamate. Acchedyo 'yam (BG 2.24). They cannot be separated . . . Then what is the aim of bhakti if you are not going to merge with Paramātmā? *Bhakti . . . you try . . . you read carefully. Because you do not read, therefore . . . nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Nitya-yuktā upāsate (BG 9.14). When they come to the point of nitya , there also the upāsana is there. One nitya is worshiping the other nitya . That is nitya-yuktā upāsate . Upāsana . . . upāsana means . . . Upāsana means upāsaka, upāsana and upāsita . Three things. As soon as you bring upāsana , there must be one person who is offering upāsana , and there is a process of upāsana , and the other person accepting upāsana . *Then we're assuming that we're . . . actually the idea of śuddha*-bhakti is . . . *Bhakti means that. Nitya*-yuktā upāsana . That's all. Upāsana continues. Here they're upāsana . Here the devotees offering worship to the Deity, it is upāsana . And after being perfect, that upāsana will continue. It will never stop. It will never stop, that's the fact. That is, when a man attains to . . . But Māyāvādī philosophy is that you offer upāsana now, and when you are perfect you become one. Not one. I mean you merge with one. Not you become one. You merge with one. *Then there is no advaita*-vāda . There is dvaita-vāda . Two. There is no advaita-vāda . If you accept that you remain different, then there is no advaita . We don't dare, do you see, ācchā , at a particular stage you like to merge with Him? Meeting, I am meeting you. That does not mean we have become one. You are meeting me, I am meeting you. So we are different. What is ultimate object of that bhakti ? Ultimate object is you are offering this flower—this is bhakti . But you are different than me. That's all right. That is all right. That bhakti , you can call it love, you can call it in various ways. Bhakti means surrender. Bhakti means the process by which Bhagavān and bhakta interact. That is bhakti . That's all? He gains with that interaction? Interaction. That does not mean bhakta and Bhagavān become equal. *Bhakta and Bhagavān may not be equal, but even the bhakti*-mārga , and we say the Bhagavān Himself declares that, "My bhakta is more superior to Me." That's all right. You say whatever you say, they remain two—different. They may remain two . . . *Then that is not advaita*-vāda . That is dvaita-vāda . Two, two. Not one. That is dvaita-vāda . That is the point. You mean to say eternally there is a soul and . . . this ātmā and Paramātmā will remain separate? *Yes. Therefore the . . . therefore it is said, nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Therefore the word is there, nitya-yuktā. Nitya means everlasting. Yes. Everlasting. We will remain separate. Separate. And that is a fact. *Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ (BG 15.7). *There are so many things. But here it is said, nitya*-yuktā upāsate . Even they come to the platform of nitya , where there is no birth and death—that is nitya, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20)—even that platform, Bhagavān remains different than the devotee who worships. Eternally? *Eternally. That is nitya*-yuktā upāsate . There is no oneness. Otherwise why it is nitya-yuktā upāsate ? Nityo nityānām . The nityānām , plural number, and nitya , Bhagavān. So nitya-yuktā upāsate. *Then if you take the kevala*-bhaktas , if you take the life of a bhakta . . . *If you take logic, it is stated there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . *If you take bhakta*-vidyā , where so many sayings like Chakubhai and Namdev and all these people. If you take it . . . they had . . . they observed bhakti-mārga from the beginning. That is, they considered Kṛṣṇa . . . *No, they have considered that the bhakti*-mārga is a means to become one. Means to become one. That's exactly what I mean. *Yes, that is their version. But that is not the version of Bhagavad*-gītā . *Yes, it's the only way. Bhakti*-mārga is only mārga . It is only way to become one. *No. They never become one. Therefore nitya*-yuktā upāsate . Then why should we say in our . . .? You can say anything, but that is not accepted. We have to accept Kṛṣṇa's statement. You can say anything. Sir, I am not saying. That is what I am taught. At least, you are saying now. So, then which one you will take? As you are taught, or as Kṛṣṇa said it? Merge with the Lord. Mirabhai, "Merge with the Lord," and Chakubhai, "Merge with the Lord." You bring thousands of examples. Then what is that merging? No, no. You bring thousands of examples, but whether we have to accept them or Kṛṣṇa? I mean the doubt I am having, I mean . . . *Then you, you now you just become out of doubt. That . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Seventh Chapter, mayy āsakta*-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ asaṁśayam (BG 7.1). Here is asaṁśayam . "No doubt." Why you are in doubt? You do not accept Kṛṣṇa. You accept somebody else. Not a question of accepting. We are all ignorant people in the field of . . . Therefore you are in doubt. We are . . . we have . . . *No. Therefore you are in doubt. If you want to be doubtless, then you accept Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta*-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Āśrayaḥ . Not that equal footing. Mad-āśrayaḥ. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu (BG 7.1). So you have to accept Kṛṣṇa, if you become . . . if you want to become doubtless. Otherwise, you'll be put into doubt. Here it is said asaṁśayam , "Without any doubt." That is the process. And if you want to remain in doubt, you continue. You accept this man, that man, that man, that man, that man. That is your business. But if you want to be doubtless, then you have to accept Kṛṣṇa. *So we say in the bhakti*-mārga for eternally the Paramātmā and ātmā will remain separate, separate entities. And that is always. You cannot become one with Him. Then in what levels the man got to remain in a separate entity? Always in the same as bhakta ? *Nitya*-yuktā upāsate . The one is worshipable, another is worshiper. That's all. Nitya-yuktā upāsate. Upāsate means the worshipable is there and the worshiper is there. Then the question of upāsana . If they become one, then where is upāsana ? Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling. At one stage . . . But that is not the fact. Here it is said upāsate. Upāsate means he worships. So if he loses his existence, then where is worship? No. Ātman's got to go on practicing and try to become pure and purer and pure, at one stage. Without being pure you cannot go there. There is no question of upāsana . *Unless you are completely free from all sinful reaction, there is no upāsana . That is practice. That is practice. Just like neophyte, one is practicing. Just like one student is practicing. That is sa bhakta prakṛta smṛta . This is material. But when you are pakkā , practiced, then you go to the nitya*-dhāma . And your business is the same. Here it is practice and there it is permanent. That's all. Nitya-yuktā upāsate. The upāsana continues. That is. Then our object is to get rid of the birth, birth and death, that we want to be eternal. From there you want to get rid of your birth and death. That is birth and death. *Birth and death you stop as soon as you give up this material body. Material body, the birth question comes of the material body. And death also material body. Therefore it is clearly said in the Bhagavad*-gītā , na jāyate na mriyate vā (BG 2.20). Yes, you are trying to do sādhanas to see what . . . First of all, understand this, that the soul is never born, never dies. But we are seeing birth and death. What is that birth and death? It is of the body. But you are different from the body. Yes, I am different. My soul is different, the ātmā different from the body. That is the foregone conclusion. Birth and death applies to the body, not to the soul. Yes. That, your karmas , you enjoy and suffer according to your karma . That is body, all body. That is body. How long you are going to do that? So long you are not a devotee. I mean even if I am a devotee, I go on doing some sins . . . *You become devotee, then immediately transfer to the nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Yes, I become a devotee, a true devotee . . . When you become a perfect devotee then you are transferred to the eternal world, and your engagement is upāsana eternally. The eternal world. What is that eternal world? *That you do not know? You read, study. Have you studied Bhagavad*-gītā ? Do you know that there is an eternal world? There is an eternal world. Do you know that? Our śāstras say eternal world . . . Then why do you . . .? Man is eternal world by going and enjoying there in mokṣa there. So that is mokṣa . When you go to the eternal world, that is mokṣa . That is mokṣa . Do you separate the eternal world from the Paramātmā? It is something, a world like our material world that we have got, physical world that we have got, is going to be out of, the eternal world? Yes. Yes. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). This word is used, sanātana. Sanātana means eternal. There is another world. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ. Find out this verse. Everything is there. We have to start packing up now. It's quarter past six. We have to leave in ten minutes. So now we have to stop. We have to leave. You just refer that verse. Na vinaśyati. The material world will be finished, and that will remain. "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." That is sanātana . "Kṛṣṇa's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahmā. Kṛṣṇa's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter." And the next verse? *No, that's all right. There is an eternal world, sanātana . That is never annihilated. So when you go to that sanātana*-dhāma , God is there, sanātana , and there you live eternally and go on rendering service to God. That is all. There is no question of oneness. The variety is there, but there the varieties are eternal; here the varieties are temporary. That is difference. Everything is explained. So thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- August 25, 1976, Hyderabad I am sitting in this room. Yes. And if by force you drag me away, I shall go to another room. Because I'll have another room. But because you have forcibly driven me away, you are criminal. Similarly, a living entity is ordained to live in a certain body for a certain period. If you kill, that is the interference with his staying there. You are criminal. Yes, that is true. The soul is never killed. Never killed. But because you have forcibly driven away from that body, you become criminal. That is the philosophy. Yes. Now, assuming . . . So you cannot do that. Assuming that, everyone . . . Not assuming. This is the fact. (laughter) No, assuming this end. I am putting a question. Every man who took part in the Kurukṣetra war, assuming that they are to be killed, they are destined to be killed. Then when they are killed, then Kṛṣṇa's argument is the soul . . . the body perishes but the soul is eternal. Soul is eternal . . . . . . the soul. How you are reconciling it if you say that the . . . I mean what a man is different from Kṛṣṇa? Or ātmā is different from Paramātmā? If you say that, then how do you say that ātmā is eternal? And what is the fate of the ātmā ? No, ātmā is eternal. That is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Why don't you understand? Ātmā is eternal, God is eternal. But the difference is, next line, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . That one ātmā , God, He is maintaining others, and the others are being maintained. So how you can make equal the maintainer and the maintained? First of all, try to understand. The question is, even if you take it, advaita philosophy also, there is a . . . the ātmā has to go and merge with the Paramātmā, but they didn't say that they're equal. I don't think even the advaita philosophy also . . . How they can be equal? They cannot be, cannot be. Cannot be, yes. But they say equal. No. They don't say that equal. Yes, he says like that. . . . (indistinct) He doesn't say anywhere, also nobody should say that. The . . . (indistinct) . . . recently said that. Don't take it from one sentence and try to enlarge it. Take it in the context. They always say this. *I do not hear. You hear, he hears. If he says something else . . . that . . . this is therefore Caitanya's philosophy is acintya*-bhedābheda, that as ātmā , they're equal. Ātmā . But one is Paramātmā, because He is maintainer. Therefore . . . Yes. All the creation, the world, it is one way out of that Paramātmā. Paramātmā. So therefore Paramātmā is the Supreme, and he is subordinate. So how the Supreme and subordinate can be equal? No, they can never be equal. Never be equal and never and . . . no philosophy, even any branch of philosophy, does not say that a human being is equal to . . . No, their philosophy is, as you said, that this subordinate ātmā has forgotten that he is Paramātmā. Yes, it is a main point. The seeker has forgotten that he is the sought. He has forgotten means simply the potential that you have within you, you have to realize it and come closer to the Paramātmā. That is what it means . . . If you have got the potency to become Paramātmā, then how you became ātmā ? Yes. The potential to come near to Paramātmā. Near, that is one thing. You are near to me. That means we are not equal. You are a separate person, I am a separate person. But even what has been told by him, he is Veda , Vedāntī , anybody, he doesn't come to ātmā is going to Paramātmā. He never says that. That mathematic equation . . . They say that the ātmā has forgotten. They say that ātmā has come into the clutches of the māyā . When you get rid of the māyā you become Paramātmā. That is not . . . you don't become Paramātmā. You become Paramātmā means that . . . you don't understand Paramātmā. Paramātmā is the Supreme, Supreme Soul. How can you become . . . Then you have to accept Paramātmā and ātmā different. Different, that is true. *Then dvaita*-vāda. Where is advaita ? Even dvaita does not, something different from advaitam , in this particular fundamental. But even advaitam does not say that ātmā is equal to Paramātmā. He never says that. You have māyā . Māyā will be field to you, and that you get rid of that māyā and you try to elevate your soul to the ātmā . And you come, go to the Paramātmā. *That is the beginning of spiritual lesson. Because that is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā . Every one of us, we are identifying with this body. Just like if somebody asks what you are, "I am Mr. Such-and-such, I am Indian, I am this, I am that." He is giving identification of the body. But that he is not. He's not this body. That is self-realization. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā , dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13)—two things— deha , this body, and asmin dehe , there is dehinaḥ , the owner of the body. That is the beginning of spiritual education. Because generally almost 99.9% people, they are thinking that "I am this body." Well, that is true, that is . . . So that is another thing. That attachment to the . . . Yes. That attachment or no attachment, he is different from the body. That is the first lesson of spiritual education, that one has to understand that he is not the body. That is Brahman realization. No, after having realized that, we have to discipline ourselves so much. *Now that individual soul and the Supreme Soul, Paramātmā, they are also different. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā in the Second Chapter. Kṛṣṇa says: "My dear Arjuna, both you, Me and all these persons who are assembled here, we existed in the past, and we are existing now, and we shall continue to exist." So when they become one? Past, present and future. As they were different persons in the past, they are different persons now, and they will continue to remain different persons in the future. So when they become one? Now we take it, small particles of water makes an ocean. That cannot be. Here Kṛṣṇa says that we shall remain like this in the future. We can't get new to be . . . No, there is no amalgamation. It is clearly stated. Even a drop of water, when you take it from the glass and put it on this one, another drop of water will come, and when you put it in medicine it won't come in water. Like that, ātmā , will it not merge with the Paramātmā? That water is matter, that is not spirit. But we are talking of spirit. You cannot bring matter. No, that analogy cannot be, because similarity. The water is different—matter. And you are talking of spirit souls. Here it is stated that the spirit soul individually, they'll never amalgamate. Acchedyo 'yam (BG 2.24). They cannot be separated . . . Then what is the aim of bhakti if you are not going to merge with Paramātmā? *Bhakti . . . you try . . . you read carefully. Because you do not read, therefore . . . nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Nitya-yuktā upāsate (BG 9.14). When they come to the point of nitya , there also the upāsana is there. One nitya is worshiping the other nitya . That is nitya-yuktā upāsate . Upāsana . . . upāsana means . . . Upāsana means upāsaka, upāsana and upāsita . Three things. As soon as you bring upāsana , there must be one person who is offering upāsana , and there is a process of upāsana , and the other person accepting upāsana . *Then we're assuming that we're . . . actually the idea of śuddha*-bhakti is . . . *Bhakti means that. Nitya*-yuktā upāsana . That's all. Upāsana continues. Here they're upāsana . Here the devotees offering worship to the Deity, it is upāsana . And after being perfect, that upāsana will continue. It will never stop. It will never stop, that's the fact. That is, when a man attains to . . . But Māyāvādī philosophy is that you offer upāsana now, and when you are perfect you become one. Not one. I mean you merge with one. Not you become one. You merge with one. *Then there is no advaita*-vāda . There is dvaita-vāda . Two. There is no advaita-vāda . If you accept that you remain different, then there is no advaita . We don't dare, do you see, ācchā , at a particular stage you like to merge with Him? Meeting, I am meeting you. That does not mean we have become one. You are meeting me, I am meeting you. So we are different. What is ultimate object of that bhakti ? Ultimate object is you are offering this flower—this is bhakti . But you are different than me. That's all right. That is all right. That bhakti , you can call it love, you can call it in various ways. Bhakti means surrender. Bhakti means the process by which Bhagavān and bhakta interact. That is bhakti . That's all? He gains with that interaction? Interaction. That does not mean bhakta and Bhagavān become equal. *Bhakta and Bhagavān may not be equal, but even the bhakti*-mārga , and we say the Bhagavān Himself declares that, "My bhakta is more superior to Me." That's all right. You say whatever you say, they remain two—different. They may remain two . . . *Then that is not advaita*-vāda . That is dvaita-vāda . Two, two. Not one. That is dvaita-vāda . That is the point. You mean to say eternally there is a soul and . . . this ātmā and Paramātmā will remain separate? *Yes. Therefore the . . . therefore it is said, nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Therefore the word is there, nitya-yuktā. Nitya means everlasting. Yes. Everlasting. We will remain separate. Separate. And that is a fact. *Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ (BG 15.7). *There are so many things. But here it is said, nitya*-yuktā upāsate . Even they come to the platform of nitya , where there is no birth and death—that is nitya, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20)—even that platform, Bhagavān remains different than the devotee who worships. Eternally? *Eternally. That is nitya*-yuktā upāsate . There is no oneness. Otherwise why it is nitya-yuktā upāsate ? Nityo nityānām . The nityānām , plural number, and nitya , Bhagavān. So nitya-yuktā upāsate. *Then if you take the kevala*-bhaktas , if you take the life of a bhakta . . . *If you take logic, it is stated there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . *If you take bhakta*-vidyā , where so many sayings like Chakubhai and Namdev and all these people. If you take it . . . they had . . . they observed bhakti-mārga from the beginning. That is, they considered Kṛṣṇa . . . *No, they have considered that the bhakti*-mārga is a means to become one. Means to become one. That's exactly what I mean. *Yes, that is their version. But that is not the version of Bhagavad*-gītā . *Yes, it's the only way. Bhakti*-mārga is only mārga . It is only way to become one. *No. They never become one. Therefore nitya*-yuktā upāsate . Then why should we say in our . . .? You can say anything, but that is not accepted. We have to accept Kṛṣṇa's statement. You can say anything. Sir, I am not saying. That is what I am taught. At least, you are saying now. So, then which one you will take? As you are taught, or as Kṛṣṇa said it? Merge with the Lord. Mirabhai, "Merge with the Lord," and Chakubhai, "Merge with the Lord." You bring thousands of examples. Then what is that merging? No, no. You bring thousands of examples, but whether we have to accept them or Kṛṣṇa? I mean the doubt I am having, I mean . . . *Then you, you now you just become out of doubt. That . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Seventh Chapter, mayy āsakta*-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ asaṁśayam (BG 7.1). Here is asaṁśayam . "No doubt." Why you are in doubt? You do not accept Kṛṣṇa. You accept somebody else. Not a question of accepting. We are all ignorant people in the field of . . . Therefore you are in doubt. We are . . . we have . . . *No. Therefore you are in doubt. If you want to be doubtless, then you accept Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta*-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Āśrayaḥ . Not that equal footing. Mad-āśrayaḥ. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu (BG 7.1). So you have to accept Kṛṣṇa, if you become . . . if you want to become doubtless. Otherwise, you'll be put into doubt. Here it is said asaṁśayam , "Without any doubt." That is the process. And if you want to remain in doubt, you continue. You accept this man, that man, that man, that man, that man. That is your business. But if you want to be doubtless, then you have to accept Kṛṣṇa. *So we say in the bhakti*-mārga for eternally the Paramātmā and ātmā will remain separate, separate entities. And that is always. You cannot become one with Him. Then in what levels the man got to remain in a separate entity? Always in the same as bhakta ? *Nitya*-yuktā upāsate . The one is worshipable, another is worshiper. That's all. Nitya-yuktā upāsate. Upāsate means the worshipable is there and the worshiper is there. Then the question of upāsana . If they become one, then where is upāsana ? Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling. At one stage . . . But that is not the fact. Here it is said upāsate. Upāsate means he worships. So if he loses his existence, then where is worship? No. Ātman's got to go on practicing and try to become pure and purer and pure, at one stage. Without being pure you cannot go there. There is no question of upāsana . *Unless you are completely free from all sinful reaction, there is no upāsana . That is practice. That is practice. Just like neophyte, one is practicing. Just like one student is practicing. That is sa bhakta prakṛta smṛta . This is material. But when you are pakkā , practiced, then you go to the nitya*-dhāma . And your business is the same. Here it is practice and there it is permanent. That's all. Nitya-yuktā upāsate. The upāsana continues. That is. Then our object is to get rid of the birth, birth and death, that we want to be eternal. From there you want to get rid of your birth and death. That is birth and death. *Birth and death you stop as soon as you give up this material body. Material body, the birth question comes of the material body. And death also material body. Therefore it is clearly said in the Bhagavad*-gītā , na jāyate na mriyate vā (BG 2.20). Yes, you are trying to do sādhanas to see what . . . First of all, understand this, that the soul is never born, never dies. But we are seeing birth and death. What is that birth and death? It is of the body. But you are different from the body. Yes, I am different. My soul is different, the ātmā different from the body. That is the foregone conclusion. Birth and death applies to the body, not to the soul. Yes. That, your karmas , you enjoy and suffer according to your karma . That is body, all body. That is body. How long you are going to do that? So long you are not a devotee. I mean even if I am a devotee, I go on doing some sins . . . *You become devotee, then immediately transfer to the nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Yes, I become a devotee, a true devotee . . . When you become a perfect devotee then you are transferred to the eternal world, and your engagement is upāsana eternally. The eternal world. What is that eternal world? *That you do not know? You read, study. Have you studied Bhagavad*-gītā ? Do you know that there is an eternal world? There is an eternal world. Do you know that? Our śāstras say eternal world . . . Then why do you . . .? Man is eternal world by going and enjoying there in mokṣa there. So that is mokṣa . When you go to the eternal world, that is mokṣa . That is mokṣa . Do you separate the eternal world from the Paramātmā? It is something, a world like our material world that we have got, physical world that we have got, is going to be out of, the eternal world? Yes. Yes. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). This word is used, sanātana. Sanātana means eternal. There is another world. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ. Find out this verse. Everything is there. We have to start packing up now. It's quarter past six. We have to leave in ten minutes. So now we have to stop. We have to leave. You just refer that verse. Na vinaśyati. The material world will be finished, and that will remain. "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." That is sanātana . "Kṛṣṇa's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahmā. Kṛṣṇa's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter." And the next verse? *No, that's all right. There is an eternal world, sanātana . That is never annihilated. So when you go to that sanātana*-dhāma , God is there, sanātana , and there you live eternally and go on rendering service to God. That is all. There is no question of oneness. The variety is there, but there the varieties are eternal; here the varieties are temporary. That is difference. Everything is explained. So thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- August 31, 1976, Delhi (Meeting With Member of Parliament, Mr. Krishna Modi) *Tabhiyat theek hai? hamara tabiyat kuch pheeka*-pheeka hai. (Are you in good health? My health is not doing so good.) Prabhupāda is always traveling. Thoda time ka jaroorat hai. (A little bit of time is needed.) It is needed. *This is the only hope. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet ( SB 12.3.51). Throughout the whole world, the situation is not very good. Now there is drought, no water. All over the world. I have seen whole Europe, all the fields are now gray, no green. Idhar to khoob pani baras raha hai. (Here it is raining very heavily.) India this year is very good rains. Beyond expectation. And also this crop is very good. *Barasat hone se crop hoga. (Only if it rains there will be crops.) Parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ. Nature's work is there. As soon as there is sufficient rain you get sufficient crops. And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). Kali-yuga, this age, the yajña is hari-kīrtana . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ . Ek mandir me sankirtan ka ayojan kijiye sab theek ho jayega. (In one temple organize congregational chanting, everything will be alright.) Who can do this thing? We can do that. We can do that. Provided there is cooperation. Oh, that is good. Now . . . They have not given your phone number of this place. I was not in idea that they had shifted you. Oh, Tejiyas did not tell you. And therefore I have phoned and phoned and phoned, but I was not getting anything. When was this? Long time ago? No. Yesterday. Because yesterday I was to come here. You got called by . . . *But I was called by Mr. Home Minister Brahmānanda Reddy, and he told me that you have come here . . . (indistinct) . . . so that I want to know something . . . (indistinct) . . . asking me. One question was put up in Rājya*-sabhā, and he's . . . (indistinct) . . . there. I told him that he's . . . (indistinct) . . . There are some gentlemen of, er . . . Labor Minister and from . . . (indistinct) . . . gentleman and they have come from Andhra Pradesh. They were also there. One MP, Mr. D. D. Desai, he is also there. Some . . . (indistinct) . . . members. And there was . . . (indistinct) . . . and we have discussed at length. And we have told them, and there is no restriction . . . (indistinct) . . . the size and to everybody. And you see then it is in Indian history, it is first time that something has been done. All people are saying that they have done in America, they have done in so many centers all over the world, and then we are, something like that, it is shameful. It is Indian culture. Indian culture. Then he told me that you are perfectly right, and I am also an Indian and I have that right also, that we have no knowledge about all these things. If you have something, then you please let us know so that we may inquire the particular matter. And I told him that you inquire first, and then why I should have to inquire? Why I have? There is no matter, no anything, then how can I give the order for inquiry? On what basis? Let the something come, then I will . . . and I told them that why you are harassing? Visa, and visa, all these things, this passport, and in all these things, and you say that you go over and . . . why you are? Visa. Visa. Why you are harassing? I will check up. And you write me a letter so that I may call the Consulate man on the visas so that I may discuss it. And at length there was a discussion, and that was refuted because there are two, three gentlemen, personalities from Andhra, they also supported in a very . . . Prabhupāda addressed the whole Andhra Pradesh cabinet in Hyderabad. I was invited by the . . . Yes, they have told, they have told. And they have told also that . . . no, no, no, no, no, no. For . . . (indistinct) . . . they are the . . . (indistinct) . . . and we must respect them. And if anybody says something against them, and we must be very careful about that. And we cannot object to it. Then all we have got the same opinion . . . (indistinct) . . . and we have to . . . (indistinct) . . . this is the thing. Now about this thing . . . Blitz article. . . . Blitz article. You should not reply. I advised that. You should not reply to all these things. We gave the reply to . . . To me. And . . . *Aaj barah baje tak humlog ka upwas hai Radharani ka janmdin. (Today we are fasting until 12 o'clock on the occasion of Radharani's birthday.) We shall take after twelve (half*-day fast for Rādhāṣṭamī), later prasādam . If Gurudeva is hungry. How I can take before? No, you can take. You can take. You give something so that we . . . No. You give the whole thing to him . . . (indistinct) . . . and you have brought . . . (indistinct) I will arrange. Isko to lijiye. (Take this.) *Sweet and kṣīra . Mahā*-prasādam . Nahi bad me lenge . . . (No, I will take afterwards . . .) You will reply and also the article, so that I am arranging to call all the members Parliament they are concerning with this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. They are some members, so you give me the list of bad members also. And then we will discuss all the matters, and you will . . . then we will give the articles to all the other papers from our side. Hmm. That will be very nice. Illustrated Weekly or News or Kalyani . . . Illustrated Weekly is atheistic. Kushwant Singh, the editor, openly told us that "I don't believe in God." But Danyug is religious. You don't mind for that. We will give. And MPs will write and sign, then we . . . We will have the . . . (indistinct) Find out . . . (indistinct) . . . and if you don't mind, I will give one suggestion more. In the Indian national interest, in this country's interest, that I should prepare some interested members to see all over the world, our, this . . . That will be very nice. So that . . . let them ticket hire and air freight and all that should be paid by them. Let them support. We have got branches in almost all important cities. Ten or fifteen. Let them see, so that they may be attracted and they may know each and every thing. Because here we know only by this thing. And then let us advertise about. You take this paper. Make a list of important cities. Now suppose if you go from Delhi. So you can go first to Paris, Geneva, Rome, then London, Amsterdam, Stockholm. Then from London I think . . . America. . . . New York, Boston, Montreal, Canada. Then you go to the western side—Los Angeles, San Francisco . . . Vancouver. Vancouver. Canada. Go further, Honolulu. Then you could go to the Pacific, Australia. Ah, yes. New Zealand, Sydney. Australia, Sydney, Melbourne. You can stop in Japan on the way. Let us have a program, make a program so that some . . . In every big city . . . Five or ten, they should go with all their expenses. They can stay at our temples, wherever they go. We will pick them up at the airport and bring them to the temple. *Pre*-arrangement should be done by our . . . this thing, this transport and fooding and lodging. Local transport and . . . That is. So that I may fix up this program with the . . . Very good. . . . ten or fifteen people, so that they may go and see and all these things, and then they can also, if any question comes in the House, then they can oppose like anything. And they should submit their report also to the Prime Minister, Home Minister, to everybody, and to House also. And "This thing has been done, and we must be proud about that, that some . . ." And to start out they can come to Vṛndāvana, which is right nearby. We can take them in a bus. We have a beautiful center in Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa. And Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. Yes, that because this is in India. Whenever they like, they will see it. So when can they organize this tour? How soon can it be organized? I'll ask them. I have an idea about that only. Because yesterday Mr. Brahmānanda Reddy already told me that, "Why not you people also stand up and say something about that? Why not you strengthen my hands? Because they press and press and they want something that I should say something. So if you people stand and then you say that, 'No, no, no, no. This is not the thing, and we have seen it and this and this and that and that.' And they will be . . ." That is his idea. But the only people who are pressing charges are the Communists. They are just trying to . . . But they will do. That is their duty. They are atheists. Yes. So that why we should mind for that? That is there. You may say they're rākṣasa , or whatever you give the . . . (laughs) They will, always they will . . . Rākṣasas are always ready to kill God. That was the business of Rāvaṇa, that was the business of Kaṁsa, that was the business of Hiraṇyakaśipu. That is the same thing in Rāvaṇa and this . . . what is this, at that time. That is the same thing. They were happy, they were drink and all these things, and take on and all that time, and also harassing the devotees and . . . this is their duty. Very . . . (indistinct) This is their duty. Therefore we should not mind for that. Let them do it. Actually, even Russia, which is Communist, has admired Prabhupāda's books. I have written reviews—I was in Russia two months ago—from them, praising Prabhupāda's books very much. The leading professors there. Also, this is a part of nowadays—advertise and all these things, to know each and every thing. This is correct, that why you are worrying about all these things? People should know it about you. Why not hear it? This is perfectly right, I agree with you. But in the interest of other people who have faith in their religion . . . *No, our mission is that this Kṛṣṇa cult should be preached all over the world. That is the Bhagavad*-gītā decision. Find out this verse, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). (devotees look for verse) Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ . Eighteenth Chapter. Mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati . Is that the one, "There's no one more dear to me than . . ."? "There's no one more dear"? (to devotee) It's that one, "There's no one more dear." Even in black Africa Prabhupāda has temples. Yes, that is good. Hmm? I say even in black Africa you have temples and devotees. Yes. You must circulate these all things. At least to our members. Read it. Where is the verse? Why don't you print the opinions? Several times . . . We have printed. Where is that? Oh, I have it. We have printed the reviews in all, and the Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is Authorized. That is a simple thing, but all the reviews you should print them in book. In a book form. Yes. There are hundreds of reviews. And you should also supply that to at least your interested members, interested Parliament only. We'll design a special booklet just for . . . I am asking you for so many months that you publish all these opinions. We have all the opinions, but we presently have them in sheets, not in a book form. We can put it in . . . Where is that? Where is that? In the sheets? Oh, I have. Yes, I have most of the reviews, book reviews, with me. So, where is that? Bring it. Okay. Read it? Translation: "For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me." Read the purport? Yes. *Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: "Generally it is advised that Bhagavad*-gītā be discussed amongst the devotees only, for those who are not devotees will neither understand Kṛṣṇa nor Bhagavad-gītā . Those who do not accept Kṛṣṇa as He is and Bhagavad-gītā as it is should not try to explain Bhagavad-gītā whimsically and become offenders. Bhagavad-gītā should be explained to persons who are ready to accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is a subject matter for devotees only and not for philosophical speculators. Anyone, however, who tries sincerely to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is will advance in devotional activities and reach the pure devotional state of life. As a result of such pure devotion, he is sure to go back home, back to Godhead." What is this? That is Blitz. Oh. It is new? No, this is the first article. And second article also they have given? Yes, there's another one. Small. Blitz has given second article also? Yes, this last week's issue. This one's from two or three weeks ago. It's two weeks ago, and last week . . . every week they . . . (indistinct) Where is that? You have that second article? That you are giving me today? Gopala Krsna will have. Then he will give? (aside) Bring that second article. (reads newspaper headlines) Blitz . . . (indistinct) . . . "Ungodly face of Kṛṣṇa." They must say like that. (laughs) This is for you. This is the second part of it. This is the second version. Of this. Yes. They must say it. These books have been acclaimed by scholars all over the world. Not world, but you give us only Indian, Indian. You want only the Indian. Yes. This is second one. This is last week. This Andhra government also are Kṛṣṇa culture. Such bogus. No, all the ministers of Andhra government, they came to our opening ceremony of the temple. Chief Minister spoke, and the Endowment Minister, Suraj Narayan, Raju. He's a nice devotee. Le aao, patti le aao, patti, kele ka patti hai? (Bring, bring the leaf . . . leaf, you have banana leaf?) We have Britannic Encyclopedia . . . Where is the opinion of the Russian? This is nothing. This is the way it is now. They're telling everyone that the Andhra government is . . . This is nothing, I think. I don't think it is anything wrong. It says: "Falls for Kṛṣṇa." That is another thing. But in article they have told nothing. They try to indirectly say . . . Ah, that is not . . . Because they have nothing to prove . . . Prove them therefore . . . let them say like that. The Britannic Encyclopedia on the book of the year, they only have about a hundred selected personalities of the world, and they had a biography on Prabhupāda. Now I think we must systematically discuss this matter. Now I think it is decided . . . Ek sutli le aao, usko bandh de. (Bring a cord and tie this up.) It is now decided that you will give us all the Indian . . . Also should we give you what Indian professors have wrote? Like this Dr. Mahesh Mehta at the University of Windsor. Some of the Indian professors in America are very . . . Indians in India and Indians abroad. Yes, yes, yes. Indians, all Indians abroad. Abroad and also Communist countries if anybody. Give us any report. Russia, like that, you should give us in a file, make a file. And one thing is this. Now second is that when we are . . . This is a good book advertisement. (laughs) "Andhra government falls for Kṛṣṇa . . ." (laughs) No, he has not written anything. It is only it seems that . . . what can be said about . . . Whole government is supporting. Supporting. His meaning is this, that this Congress government is also doing all these mischiefs, so that they will . . . (laughs) That his main idea, and nothing else. Yes. They are also victimized by this Kṛṣṇa cult. One thing, then, you will give us all . . . Reviews. . . . these recorded informations and all these . . . And also we give you letters of leading ācāryas of India who are . . . (indistinct) No harm. And second thing, after three months, or at the time of session, you must call the MPs for a time only for taking prasāda . And they'll come. Four or five? All of them? Four, five, and we will bring so many. So that let them . . . We have few movies on our movement. Like one is on our New Vṛndāvana farm, which shows how the Indian Vedic way of life is being adapted even in America on the farm. A movie on the Hare Kṛṣṇa people . . . You show them at that time. I will invite. Just say you have shown that in Tirupati's house, Hare Kṛṣṇa picture, that. And that is very impressive. Everybody appreciates that. We have two more movies like that. Ah, then you must . . . I will arrange for that. In October we are meeting again after 25th. When the session is over or almost over? *No, session is for today, that's all. Then it is over. Then at any time, you meet me. I will invite them. I will invite them. So that let them come—ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty*-five, thirty—let them come, and let them see, and let them . . . so that our number must be . . . and third, I will request you, make a program. I will make for this work. Let them see for one month program. And they will pay all their air freight, all these things. And local transportation, local accommodation . . . Local accommodation and all, that should be managed, and nothing else. So that let them know each and every thing so that they may . . . So we will give the reply to Blitz to you? Yes, give me so that we will . . . I'll give it to you this evening or leave it in your house. Okay. So before 5th I will give some good papers for that . . . giving our names also. In our name. These articles will be published in our name. You want us to give you an article on ISKCON? A brief article? Or . . . No, you don't give the article. You give only that like and this thing. Then we will give. In Hindi also and in English and Gujarati. Okay. That will be very nice. We will do that. *Agar unke paas pada hai to, sab bhuke*-vukhe hai to . . . ha communist . . . (If it is lying with him and everyone is hungry, then . . . yes, communist . . .) They don't want anything. They say that religious is a opium. So that what you are doing . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . they are not liking. If they are in power then they can do like that. They did it in Russia. Because their theory is this: That this God and all these religious matters, this is a opium, and this is a kind of, you may say it that in the umbrella, religious in the name of . . . And what they have done, the Communists? They have not done anything. They should not do anything. It is not their duty. No, I mean to say, countries like Russia and China, what actual progress they have made? That is . . . they say like that, that "We are giving very good food to everybody, very good house, and living, and all their garment, education, medical free. We are giving the to common men . . . Medical . . . (indistinct) . . . is free. Free medical service, education . . . (break) . . . and in the offices of big, big professors and all, it looks so much lower than in America or Canada. And in the comparison of India? Actually, in some respects I found them even lower than India. You'll be amazed . . . I visited all the leading libraries of Russia and Leningrad, Moscow University Library, all the big libraries. These libraries don't have any foreign exchange for ordering these books. They all want to order . . . they were begging me for free books. They said: "Why don't you give us a donation or exchange?" They have a book exchange that if they give their books then we give our books. Each library gets such little foreign exchange allowance to buy books from abroad. A taxi driver, he was asking some bakshish . In Russia. And I was talking with Professor Kotovsky. I asked him, "Please call for a taxi." So he said, "Swāmījī, it is Moscow." That means taxis are not available. Then he came down with me, and from the gate he showed me, "You take this shortcut when you go to your hotel." He could not call a taxi. Taxis are not available. He said: "Oh, it is Moscow." But even the taxi drivers are very corrupt because of the shortage of taxis in Russia. You have to stand in line for taxis. Not taxi—bus. Even for taxis they have no taxi stands where you stand in line. So the taxi driver, he will park his car a little bit away. In my opinion it is a poor country. I think poorer than India. They have advertised only. Yes. They have good propaganda. And people are not happy. They are terrorized. *That is correct. That is correct. In Parliament we are telling that they are a first*-class prisoner. First-class prison. *Yes. First*-class prisoners. Not first-class; *third*-class. (laughter) But I was told . . . because a lot of people in Russia who are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa also. It's very . . . there's a lot of corruption. Even the taxi drivers are corrupt. They'll park their taxi a bit away then come and approach you when you are standing in a line and say: "Okay, I'll take you there," but he'll tell you three times the price because everyone's waiting in such a long line for a taxi. Black market. Yes. And one friend of ours told us what they do, because all the cars belong to the state, a lot of taxis, the people . . . The taxis are not independent. No, they all belong to the state. But the driver, if he makes extra money, that goes in his pocket. And they have tipping also. *And they are always anxious to get extra. Buses are not very good. Third*-class buses. And a lot of people want foreign exchange there. Like they'll ask . . . I'm going. You're going to Russia? When? Yes, on 4th of October. For how long? About fifteen days. Visit. Budapest also. Because I am not Communist, and I'm not supporting also Communist. Therefore they have not told that, "He should not be sent there." Told me. But due to some . . . You are going to just Budapest? That is Hungary. Hungary, yes. Hungary then Moscow. Then Moscow, Leningrad. Very good. Actually, I can give you a book from Leningrad if you wish to . . . this is from Moscow if you want to read it. It's all about Moscow. These are of course the good pictures of Moscow. You wish to have it? I can give it to you. This is on Moscow. I also have one on Leningrad. I will take after lunch. This is a letter from the biggest library in Russia to Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. They have ordered some books, and they want the remaining books but they wanted free, in exchange. But they don't have the money. They want all of Prabhupāda's books but they don't have the money, so they want in exchange. This is from the biggest library in Russia. Our economy is something good at this time. Indian economy . . . Indian economy is better. Income tax also they have got 67% more. Because they have reduced the rate. What is the percentage? Before that the percentage is 97, but last year, is 1976, in the March they have reduced the income tax from 97 to 65 . . . 67 and a half. In America it is 25. No, not 25, that is 45. But there is a system in West Germany that if you earn more, the tax will be less. That is their system. If we will earn . . . (indistinct) . . . then the tax percentage will be lower. Lower. That is good. That is good. The psychology is that if you earn more and government will tax more, then the impetus for earning more is cut. That is the point. Therefore they have got no black money. And here the system is different. If you will earn more, then you will have to pay more. It means people are not as interested in earning. Therefore what is the use of earning? What is the use of earning? That is true. Now they are reducing the . . . Then I will get all the replies and papers today. And I will arrange each and everything before 5th or 6th of September. You leave here the 6th? Oh, no. I will leave today or tomorrow. But I will come and I will arrange all these things. When are you coming back here? I will come back on 5th. Fifth. Okay. So I'll meet you on the 5th then. No, I will ring you here. You give me the telephone number. No, we don't mind for them. We will crush them for all these things. They can't speak like that. If they will discredit India, then . . . One thing, general thing, that I am writing books and selling in foreign countries, and I'm bringing the money here. It is for India's sake. But somebody should tell in the House all these things. You can tell. That is the thing only. That is the point of Mr. Brahmānanda Reddy also. Yesterday he told me . . . This is the important point, that my books are sold daily sixty thousand dollars all over the world. I have made the Trust so all the collections should be divided fifty percent for constructing temple and fifty percent for reprinting books. But we don't take a paisa profit. So far as an author, they are selling, sixty thousand dollars. And even if I would have taken ten percent royalty then it would have been six thousand dollars. Six thousand dollars means . . . Hundred and eighty thousand dollars a month. No, no, no. Six thousand dollars means . . . say ten rupees. Sixty thousand per day. Sixty thousand per day. Actually. But we are all foregoing it for pushing on this movement, and if we bring that money and construct big, big temple or planetarium, what is the harm to India? Prabhupāda is bringing in more foreign exchange than even big business export concerns. I'm bringing regularly not less than ten lakhs of rupees per month. Sending to India. We must tell them all these things. You tell. That is the thing. This is the Brahmānanda Reddy told yesterday that some members must be briefed and they must tell something, so that my hands may be strengthened and so that I may . . . It is a great credit that I am selling my books and bringing ten lakhs of rupees from foreign country in India. That we will speak. And his mind is very clear. Brahmānanda Reddy, his mind is very clear, very clear, and he is appreciating. And he is in our favor hundred percent. Even not in our favor, I am working hard in foreign countries and bringing money to India. You should give us some credit. But instead of giving credit, I am being criticized in the Parliament. They are putting like this. They are putting this case like that, that foreign money is coming here to advertise the American embassies, like that. They are that talking like that. They may talk nonsense, but this is the fact. This is the fact. I have got my Book Trust Fund, and I've advised regularly to send eight lakhs of rupees per month. That is being spent in Bombay, in . . . I'm not collecting from here. That is correct. So if a Indian brings from foreign country by his labor eight lakhs of rupees per month, how much credit he should be given? He should be recognized. But instead of recognizing they are criticizing. This is their way, sir. That is their . . . they have to. They must do it. Because . . . So you kindly speak to the Parliament that, "This is the position, that he is working day and night . . ." Oh, no, I will speak very high about this. Let them . . . let the matter come. And if not come then we will take this matter. I will give the question. You please reply how much money is coming and in what way they are doing. Yes. I will ask the question. Prove that the American government is supplying some way. No. We are selling our books. Actually, when you go abroad you can even see how our income's coming, how our temples live. We are all over the world. That is our books are being printed. A very big thing it is. It is marvelous that you have done such a thing. It is proud of India that . . . *New York devotees just got a twelve*-story building right in the center, and I know the local Hindus, they are trying to build a small temple since twenty years, and they're not succeeding. And right in the center of New York we have a twelve-story building. Now all the Hindus are coming to us. You have got that picture, New York temple? *The Ratha*-yātrā picture? (discussion about who has pictures) Ratha-yātrā, the New York paper. In the new magazine. New York Times, Newsweek. All the Indians came. They said, "East Meets West." Now who has converted so many of . . . this is one party. (referring to kīrtana going on in temple room) Hundreds of parties like this, they are engaged in kīrtana . India government is sending so many professional dancers by paying them from the cultural department, and what I am getting? Not a single farthing. And still I am bringing. Ah, Indian culture is . . . you . . . nobody has done these things. Just like gurukula . *The Ratha*-yātrā festival, where is? *Oh, the news of Ratha*-yātrā. Here. "New York Celebrates Festival of Chariots." Even at the U.N. conference we were there. They welcomed Vedic . . . we presented a Vedic reply to the U.N. conference. Wherever possible we are presenting Vedic culture, Indian culture. And I have no support from the government. Let us have. And a professional dancer is going, and the government is paying. I'd like you to take this, because this also has an article at length about our gurukula system in America. (indistinct explanation) Unless they are appreciating this culture, how they are accepting? It is perfectly right. But they must do it like that. Who will do? Do it . . . we can give you all information. That I will speak each and every thing. I will give a speech about all these things in any way. I have got . . . This one is later. Just came. This is only a sample copy that we have. And what is your program, sir? My program is chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and write books. That's all. No, no, now. Staying in India. Yes, I am going to Vṛndāvana. Today? Tomorrow. Aaplog sab Brindavan ek din aaiye na. (You all come one day to Vṛndāvana.) And you are staying at Vṛndāvana up to . . . At least three weeks. Three weeks. Kṛṣṇa: So we can arrange a bus and take some . . . You will arrange for bus? Let them go. They have got their cars. They have their car also, and they have got this Taj and all these trains. Why you arrange? Let them spend. I wanted to work in India by spreading sankīrtana, provided I get little cooperation of the government. That we will talk. That we will talk. One cooperation is that we can bring immediately a small vans or buses so that we can go village to village, town to town. If I get government funding, then . . . because here, the buses are very costly, and at the same time they are not very good. But foreign buses . . . India hasn't got to pay anything, but simply let us have and work in India. This much facility wanted. Besides that, our men, they are coming, spending ten thousand rupees, and after three months or six months, "Get out, get out, get out." And Indians are not joining. Indians are not so sacrificing. But these boys, they have sacrificed everything. I am sure if some cooperation is coming from the government I can very soon change the face of India. But I am not getting any facilities. We have experimented in Bengal, and here also, he is also going, saṅkīrtana party. But he could not do it in a large scale for want of facilities. And in foreign countries these boys are so sacrificing spirit, as soon as we give him some program, immediately they make arrangement. Immediately. We are going village to village with books in buses. Hundreds of buses are working. In America. *In America, in Europe. They have got facilities, full facilities. And the government appreciates. Some of the governments, they have given public holiday of the Ratha*-yātrā. *This is from the Mayor of San Francisco proclaiming that Ratha*-yātrā is a public holiday. In America. Yes. Yes, fifty thousand people come every year. And this time, New York, the government, the police, they appreciated that this kind of dancing, it is not artificial. So here is life. They appreciated. What the American boys have got to dance for Kṛṣṇa unless it is from the heart? They are not dancing dogs, that I have trained them and they are dancing. This is the temple in New York. So there are so many things to be done in India, but I am, without getting any cooperation, I am getting opposition. Correct. Now let us . . . we must be active. We must be active. It will be good for the country, for the whole nation. And we will come Vṛndāvana also. Please come. I am there for three weeks. How many rupees per day for three days? *We have a thirty*-room guest house in Vṛndāvana. Thirty room! You bring eighty persons with you, make nice arrangements. If you want sir, that is charge. We charge. That is . . . you must charge it. Our charges are very nominal. A donation to the temple. That is perfectly correct. You must charge. If your members will get free. Yes. Each room has a fan, bath . . . It is . . . (indistinct) That is perfect. *I think air*-conditioned? No. *Some rooms are air*-conditioned, two or three . . . As far as your Governor Reddy, he went. He stayed there two days. He has certified . . . he sent me a recent letter, you'll be surprised. Ask Harikeśa to bring that letter, latest letter from Channerjee. No, I have seen that. I have seen that. Latest? Latest. Also I heard that this Channa Reddy, Governor of the U.P. I have seen. Here's one of our gurukula children. Let us cooperate. You'll see how I can change the face of India. Let us have now . . . let us train some members also. *And this is the only platform where real United Nation can be made. That is practical. That is practical. That United Nation has failed. If this Indian culture . . . I have given this philosophy to the American students: andha*-paṅgu-nyāya. That a lame man and a blind man, separately, both of them are useless. But when they combine together, the lame man is taken on the shoulder of the blind man, and the lame man has got eyes but he has no legs. He gives direction and the blind man goes. So the . . . at the present moment I am trying to spread this movement all over the world. But we have no means. So let America supply the money, and let them take our direction for the culture. That will be United Nation. And actually it will become. How they are dancing, black, white, Indian, American, European, in Ratha-yātrā? There is no politics. It is out of really spiritual ecstasy. Ah, what is politics? It's a perfectly religious movement. *So this is the real platform of United Nation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu . Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu (BG 18.54). At that time samaḥ sarveṣu . Na śocati na kāṅkṣati . They have no demand. These boys, they are working so hard. They never ask a single paisa from me. It is not possible for me to pay these foreigners as salaried man. That is not possible. They get minimum four thousand rupees, minimum. Minimum salary, America, is $400 dollars. That means four thousand rupees. So . . . and they are getting $800, $1200, $2000. And poverty is unknown in America. They do not know what is poverty. I see here the milk, they are standing in block. You can get as much milk as you want anywhere you go, any shop you go, you take immediately. Anything. Building materials—you simply order to the suppliers, immediately everything is there. Ah, but here there are so many difficulties. Here simply difficulties. In comparison to other countries, I have seen that it is simply difficulty. Frankly speaking. And to speak more frankly, why there is Emergency? Emergency means bad government. Otherwise, there is no necessity of Emergency. Emergency proves the government is not going nice. Is it not? Why Emergency? If it is normally going on nicely, then where is the question of Emergency? Emergency means that is something unnormal. Yes. If it is normal, there is no question of Emergency. That is the proof. Another thing, personally, from the Vedic point of view, I don't think India is ready to take actually democracy. Mass of people, they do not care for politics. You have better experience. There, in other countries, even a small man, he has got political sense. Ah, but they are educated. But here, mass of people, they do not know what is politics. One gentleman, he was my friend, it is in 1952 or '53, Mr. Datt. He was a statistics man. So he was going in the villages to take some statistics. He said to me, "In the village, they ask me, 'Bābujī, (in Bengali asking "When will the English return?"). So, log janta hi nahi kya ho raha hai. (people don't know what is going on.) The mass of people, they're for foreigners' rule, "Come and rule over us." Because the mass of people they have no sense of politics. "Anyone may come, and let them rule, we don't mind. Whatever little tax you want, you take, that's all right." The mass of people is like that. They are not concerned in politics. Under the circumstances, a democracy is not suitable for India. Long ago that Lord Curzon, he suggested this, that in India, monarchy is better. He suggested that some of the rāj family members should become King of India. It will be welcome. And our country, all along this monarchy was there. Democracy is idea now, but the monarch up to Parīkṣit Mahārāja, they were ideal, rājarṣi . People have so much faith in the monarch that whatever he does, it is right. Naradeva. Of course, nowadays things have changed. There is no difference. In the name of democracy this is the same thing. That's all. No, democracy means the people must have political sense. Then democracy is there. If the people have no political sense, artificially they are giving vote, that democracy . . . anyway, we are not political men, but so far whatever it may be, to change the present situation, I am confident if this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is taken seriously in India there will be very, very good change. That is absolute. So we can take up this work provided there is little cooperation from the government. Correct. So I will come to Vṛndāvana. Thank you. Jaya . (end) Conversation -- August 31, 1976, Delhi (Meeting With Member of Parliament, Mr. Krishna Modi) *Tabhiyat theek hai? hamara tabiyat kuch pheeka*-pheeka hai. (Are you in good health? My health is not doing so good.) Prabhupāda is always traveling. Thoda time ka jaroorat hai. (A little bit of time is needed.) It is needed. *This is the only hope. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet ( SB 12.3.51). Throughout the whole world, the situation is not very good. Now there is drought, no water. All over the world. I have seen whole Europe, all the fields are now gray, no green. Idhar to khoob pani baras raha hai. (Here it is raining very heavily.) India this year is very good rains. Beyond expectation. And also this crop is very good. *Barasat hone se crop hoga. (Only if it rains there will be crops.) Parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ. Nature's work is there. As soon as there is sufficient rain you get sufficient crops. And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). Kali-yuga, this age, the yajña is hari-kīrtana . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ . Ek mandir me sankirtan ka ayojan kijiye sab theek ho jayega. (In one temple organize congregational chanting, everything will be alright.) Who can do this thing? We can do that. We can do that. Provided there is cooperation. Oh, that is good. Now . . . They have not given your phone number of this place. I was not in idea that they had shifted you. Oh, Tejiyas did not tell you. And therefore I have phoned and phoned and phoned, but I was not getting anything. When was this? Long time ago? No. Yesterday. Because yesterday I was to come here. You got called by . . . *But I was called by Mr. Home Minister Brahmānanda Reddy, and he told me that you have come here . . . (indistinct) . . . so that I want to know something . . . (indistinct) . . . asking me. One question was put up in Rājya*-sabhā, and he's . . . (indistinct) . . . there. I told him that he's . . . (indistinct) . . . There are some gentlemen of, er . . . Labor Minister and from . . . (indistinct) . . . gentleman and they have come from Andhra Pradesh. They were also there. One MP, Mr. D. D. Desai, he is also there. Some . . . (indistinct) . . . members. And there was . . . (indistinct) . . . and we have discussed at length. And we have told them, and there is no restriction . . . (indistinct) . . . the size and to everybody. And you see then it is in Indian history, it is first time that something has been done. All people are saying that they have done in America, they have done in so many centers all over the world, and then we are, something like that, it is shameful. It is Indian culture. Indian culture. Then he told me that you are perfectly right, and I am also an Indian and I have that right also, that we have no knowledge about all these things. If you have something, then you please let us know so that we may inquire the particular matter. And I told him that you inquire first, and then why I should have to inquire? Why I have? There is no matter, no anything, then how can I give the order for inquiry? On what basis? Let the something come, then I will . . . and I told them that why you are harassing? Visa, and visa, all these things, this passport, and in all these things, and you say that you go over and . . . why you are? Visa. Visa. Why you are harassing? I will check up. And you write me a letter so that I may call the Consulate man on the visas so that I may discuss it. And at length there was a discussion, and that was refuted because there are two, three gentlemen, personalities from Andhra, they also supported in a very . . . Prabhupāda addressed the whole Andhra Pradesh cabinet in Hyderabad. I was invited by the . . . Yes, they have told, they have told. And they have told also that . . . no, no, no, no, no, no. For . . . (indistinct) . . . they are the . . . (indistinct) . . . and we must respect them. And if anybody says something against them, and we must be very careful about that. And we cannot object to it. Then all we have got the same opinion . . . (indistinct) . . . and we have to . . . (indistinct) . . . this is the thing. Now about this thing . . . Blitz article. . . . Blitz article. You should not reply. I advised that. You should not reply to all these things. We gave the reply to . . . To me. And . . . *Aaj barah baje tak humlog ka upwas hai Radharani ka janmdin. (Today we are fasting until 12 o'clock on the occasion of Radharani's birthday.) We shall take after twelve (half*-day fast for Rādhāṣṭamī), later prasādam . If Gurudeva is hungry. How I can take before? No, you can take. You can take. You give something so that we . . . No. You give the whole thing to him . . . (indistinct) . . . and you have brought . . . (indistinct) I will arrange. Isko to lijiye. (Take this.) *Sweet and kṣīra . Mahā*-prasādam . Nahi bad me lenge . . . (No, I will take afterwards . . .) You will reply and also the article, so that I am arranging to call all the members Parliament they are concerning with this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. They are some members, so you give me the list of bad members also. And then we will discuss all the matters, and you will . . . then we will give the articles to all the other papers from our side. Hmm. That will be very nice. Illustrated Weekly or News or Kalyani . . . Illustrated Weekly is atheistic. Kushwant Singh, the editor, openly told us that "I don't believe in God." But Danyug is religious. You don't mind for that. We will give. And MPs will write and sign, then we . . . We will have the . . . (indistinct) Find out . . . (indistinct) . . . and if you don't mind, I will give one suggestion more. In the Indian national interest, in this country's interest, that I should prepare some interested members to see all over the world, our, this . . . That will be very nice. So that . . . let them ticket hire and air freight and all that should be paid by them. Let them support. We have got branches in almost all important cities. Ten or fifteen. Let them see, so that they may be attracted and they may know each and every thing. Because here we know only by this thing. And then let us advertise about. You take this paper. Make a list of important cities. Now suppose if you go from Delhi. So you can go first to Paris, Geneva, Rome, then London, Amsterdam, Stockholm. Then from London I think . . . America. . . . New York, Boston, Montreal, Canada. Then you go to the western side—Los Angeles, San Francisco . . . Vancouver. Vancouver. Canada. Go further, Honolulu. Then you could go to the Pacific, Australia. Ah, yes. New Zealand, Sydney. Australia, Sydney, Melbourne. You can stop in Japan on the way. Let us have a program, make a program so that some . . . In every big city . . . Five or ten, they should go with all their expenses. They can stay at our temples, wherever they go. We will pick them up at the airport and bring them to the temple. *Pre*-arrangement should be done by our . . . this thing, this transport and fooding and lodging. Local transport and . . . That is. So that I may fix up this program with the . . . Very good. . . . ten or fifteen people, so that they may go and see and all these things, and then they can also, if any question comes in the House, then they can oppose like anything. And they should submit their report also to the Prime Minister, Home Minister, to everybody, and to House also. And "This thing has been done, and we must be proud about that, that some . . ." And to start out they can come to Vṛndāvana, which is right nearby. We can take them in a bus. We have a beautiful center in Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa. And Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. Yes, that because this is in India. Whenever they like, they will see it. So when can they organize this tour? How soon can it be organized? I'll ask them. I have an idea about that only. Because yesterday Mr. Brahmānanda Reddy already told me that, "Why not you people also stand up and say something about that? Why not you strengthen my hands? Because they press and press and they want something that I should say something. So if you people stand and then you say that, 'No, no, no, no. This is not the thing, and we have seen it and this and this and that and that.' And they will be . . ." That is his idea. But the only people who are pressing charges are the Communists. They are just trying to . . . But they will do. That is their duty. They are atheists. Yes. So that why we should mind for that? That is there. You may say they're rākṣasa , or whatever you give the . . . (laughs) They will, always they will . . . Rākṣasas are always ready to kill God. That was the business of Rāvaṇa, that was the business of Kaṁsa, that was the business of Hiraṇyakaśipu. That is the same thing in Rāvaṇa and this . . . what is this, at that time. That is the same thing. They were happy, they were drink and all these things, and take on and all that time, and also harassing the devotees and . . . this is their duty. Very . . . (indistinct) This is their duty. Therefore we should not mind for that. Let them do it. Actually, even Russia, which is Communist, has admired Prabhupāda's books. I have written reviews—I was in Russia two months ago—from them, praising Prabhupāda's books very much. The leading professors there. Also, this is a part of nowadays—advertise and all these things, to know each and every thing. This is correct, that why you are worrying about all these things? People should know it about you. Why not hear it? This is perfectly right, I agree with you. But in the interest of other people who have faith in their religion . . . *No, our mission is that this Kṛṣṇa cult should be preached all over the world. That is the Bhagavad*-gītā decision. Find out this verse, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). (devotees look for verse) Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ . Eighteenth Chapter. Mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati . Is that the one, "There's no one more dear to me than . . ."? "There's no one more dear"? (to devotee) It's that one, "There's no one more dear." Even in black Africa Prabhupāda has temples. Yes, that is good. Hmm? I say even in black Africa you have temples and devotees. Yes. You must circulate these all things. At least to our members. Read it. Where is the verse? Why don't you print the opinions? Several times . . . We have printed. Where is that? Oh, I have it. We have printed the reviews in all, and the Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is Authorized. That is a simple thing, but all the reviews you should print them in book. In a book form. Yes. There are hundreds of reviews. And you should also supply that to at least your interested members, interested Parliament only. We'll design a special booklet just for . . . I am asking you for so many months that you publish all these opinions. We have all the opinions, but we presently have them in sheets, not in a book form. We can put it in . . . Where is that? Where is that? In the sheets? Oh, I have. Yes, I have most of the reviews, book reviews, with me. So, where is that? Bring it. Okay. Read it? Translation: "For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me." Read the purport? Yes. *Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: "Generally it is advised that Bhagavad*-gītā be discussed amongst the devotees only, for those who are not devotees will neither understand Kṛṣṇa nor Bhagavad-gītā . Those who do not accept Kṛṣṇa as He is and Bhagavad-gītā as it is should not try to explain Bhagavad-gītā whimsically and become offenders. Bhagavad-gītā should be explained to persons who are ready to accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is a subject matter for devotees only and not for philosophical speculators. Anyone, however, who tries sincerely to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is will advance in devotional activities and reach the pure devotional state of life. As a result of such pure devotion, he is sure to go back home, back to Godhead." What is this? That is Blitz. Oh. It is new? No, this is the first article. And second article also they have given? Yes, there's another one. Small. Blitz has given second article also? Yes, this last week's issue. This one's from two or three weeks ago. It's two weeks ago, and last week . . . every week they . . . (indistinct) Where is that? You have that second article? That you are giving me today? Gopala Krsna will have. Then he will give? (aside) Bring that second article. (reads newspaper headlines) Blitz . . . (indistinct) . . . "Ungodly face of Kṛṣṇa." They must say like that. (laughs) This is for you. This is the second part of it. This is the second version. Of this. Yes. They must say it. These books have been acclaimed by scholars all over the world. Not world, but you give us only Indian, Indian. You want only the Indian. Yes. This is second one. This is last week. This Andhra government also are Kṛṣṇa culture. Such bogus. No, all the ministers of Andhra government, they came to our opening ceremony of the temple. Chief Minister spoke, and the Endowment Minister, Suraj Narayan, Raju. He's a nice devotee. Le aao, patti le aao, patti, kele ka patti hai? (Bring, bring the leaf . . . leaf, you have banana leaf?) We have Britannic Encyclopedia . . . Where is the opinion of the Russian? This is nothing. This is the way it is now. They're telling everyone that the Andhra government is . . . This is nothing, I think. I don't think it is anything wrong. It says: "Falls for Kṛṣṇa." That is another thing. But in article they have told nothing. They try to indirectly say . . . Ah, that is not . . . Because they have nothing to prove . . . Prove them therefore . . . let them say like that. The Britannic Encyclopedia on the book of the year, they only have about a hundred selected personalities of the world, and they had a biography on Prabhupāda. Now I think we must systematically discuss this matter. Now I think it is decided . . . Ek sutli le aao, usko bandh de. (Bring a cord and tie this up.) It is now decided that you will give us all the Indian . . . Also should we give you what Indian professors have wrote? Like this Dr. Mahesh Mehta at the University of Windsor. Some of the Indian professors in America are very . . . Indians in India and Indians abroad. Yes, yes, yes. Indians, all Indians abroad. Abroad and also Communist countries if anybody. Give us any report. Russia, like that, you should give us in a file, make a file. And one thing is this. Now second is that when we are . . . This is a good book advertisement. (laughs) "Andhra government falls for Kṛṣṇa . . ." (laughs) No, he has not written anything. It is only it seems that . . . what can be said about . . . Whole government is supporting. Supporting. His meaning is this, that this Congress government is also doing all these mischiefs, so that they will . . . (laughs) That his main idea, and nothing else. Yes. They are also victimized by this Kṛṣṇa cult. One thing, then, you will give us all . . . Reviews. . . . these recorded informations and all these . . . And also we give you letters of leading ācāryas of India who are . . . (indistinct) No harm. And second thing, after three months, or at the time of session, you must call the MPs for a time only for taking prasāda . And they'll come. Four or five? All of them? Four, five, and we will bring so many. So that let them . . . We have few movies on our movement. Like one is on our New Vṛndāvana farm, which shows how the Indian Vedic way of life is being adapted even in America on the farm. A movie on the Hare Kṛṣṇa people . . . You show them at that time. I will invite. Just say you have shown that in Tirupati's house, Hare Kṛṣṇa picture, that. And that is very impressive. Everybody appreciates that. We have two more movies like that. Ah, then you must . . . I will arrange for that. In October we are meeting again after 25th. When the session is over or almost over? *No, session is for today, that's all. Then it is over. Then at any time, you meet me. I will invite them. I will invite them. So that let them come—ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty*-five, thirty—let them come, and let them see, and let them . . . so that our number must be . . . and third, I will request you, make a program. I will make for this work. Let them see for one month program. And they will pay all their air freight, all these things. And local transportation, local accommodation . . . Local accommodation and all, that should be managed, and nothing else. So that let them know each and every thing so that they may . . . So we will give the reply to Blitz to you? Yes, give me so that we will . . . I'll give it to you this evening or leave it in your house. Okay. So before 5th I will give some good papers for that . . . giving our names also. In our name. These articles will be published in our name. You want us to give you an article on ISKCON? A brief article? Or . . . No, you don't give the article. You give only that like and this thing. Then we will give. In Hindi also and in English and Gujarati. Okay. That will be very nice. We will do that. *Agar unke paas pada hai to, sab bhuke*-vukhe hai to . . . ha communist . . . (If it is lying with him and everyone is hungry, then . . . yes, communist . . .) They don't want anything. They say that religious is a opium. So that what you are doing . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . they are not liking. If they are in power then they can do like that. They did it in Russia. Because their theory is this: That this God and all these religious matters, this is a opium, and this is a kind of, you may say it that in the umbrella, religious in the name of . . . And what they have done, the Communists? They have not done anything. They should not do anything. It is not their duty. No, I mean to say, countries like Russia and China, what actual progress they have made? That is . . . they say like that, that "We are giving very good food to everybody, very good house, and living, and all their garment, education, medical free. We are giving the to common men . . . Medical . . . (indistinct) . . . is free. Free medical service, education . . . (break) . . . and in the offices of big, big professors and all, it looks so much lower than in America or Canada. And in the comparison of India? Actually, in some respects I found them even lower than India. You'll be amazed . . . I visited all the leading libraries of Russia and Leningrad, Moscow University Library, all the big libraries. These libraries don't have any foreign exchange for ordering these books. They all want to order . . . they were begging me for free books. They said: "Why don't you give us a donation or exchange?" They have a book exchange that if they give their books then we give our books. Each library gets such little foreign exchange allowance to buy books from abroad. A taxi driver, he was asking some bakshish . In Russia. And I was talking with Professor Kotovsky. I asked him, "Please call for a taxi." So he said, "Swāmījī, it is Moscow." That means taxis are not available. Then he came down with me, and from the gate he showed me, "You take this shortcut when you go to your hotel." He could not call a taxi. Taxis are not available. He said: "Oh, it is Moscow." But even the taxi drivers are very corrupt because of the shortage of taxis in Russia. You have to stand in line for taxis. Not taxi—bus. Even for taxis they have no taxi stands where you stand in line. So the taxi driver, he will park his car a little bit away. In my opinion it is a poor country. I think poorer than India. They have advertised only. Yes. They have good propaganda. And people are not happy. They are terrorized. *That is correct. That is correct. In Parliament we are telling that they are a first*-class prisoner. First-class prison. *Yes. First*-class prisoners. Not first-class; *third*-class. (laughter) But I was told . . . because a lot of people in Russia who are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa also. It's very . . . there's a lot of corruption. Even the taxi drivers are corrupt. They'll park their taxi a bit away then come and approach you when you are standing in a line and say: "Okay, I'll take you there," but he'll tell you three times the price because everyone's waiting in such a long line for a taxi. Black market. Yes. And one friend of ours told us what they do, because all the cars belong to the state, a lot of taxis, the people . . . The taxis are not independent. No, they all belong to the state. But the driver, if he makes extra money, that goes in his pocket. And they have tipping also. *And they are always anxious to get extra. Buses are not very good. Third*-class buses. And a lot of people want foreign exchange there. Like they'll ask . . . I'm going. You're going to Russia? When? Yes, on 4th of October. For how long? About fifteen days. Visit. Budapest also. Because I am not Communist, and I'm not supporting also Communist. Therefore they have not told that, "He should not be sent there." Told me. But due to some . . . You are going to just Budapest? That is Hungary. Hungary, yes. Hungary then Moscow. Then Moscow, Leningrad. Very good. Actually, I can give you a book from Leningrad if you wish to . . . this is from Moscow if you want to read it. It's all about Moscow. These are of course the good pictures of Moscow. You wish to have it? I can give it to you. This is on Moscow. I also have one on Leningrad. I will take after lunch. This is a letter from the biggest library in Russia to Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. They have ordered some books, and they want the remaining books but they wanted free, in exchange. But they don't have the money. They want all of Prabhupāda's books but they don't have the money, so they want in exchange. This is from the biggest library in Russia. Our economy is something good at this time. Indian economy . . . Indian economy is better. Income tax also they have got 67% more. Because they have reduced the rate. What is the percentage? Before that the percentage is 97, but last year, is 1976, in the March they have reduced the income tax from 97 to 65 . . . 67 and a half. In America it is 25. No, not 25, that is 45. But there is a system in West Germany that if you earn more, the tax will be less. That is their system. If we will earn . . . (indistinct) . . . then the tax percentage will be lower. Lower. That is good. That is good. The psychology is that if you earn more and government will tax more, then the impetus for earning more is cut. That is the point. Therefore they have got no black money. And here the system is different. If you will earn more, then you will have to pay more. It means people are not as interested in earning. Therefore what is the use of earning? What is the use of earning? That is true. Now they are reducing the . . . Then I will get all the replies and papers today. And I will arrange each and everything before 5th or 6th of September. You leave here the 6th? Oh, no. I will leave today or tomorrow. But I will come and I will arrange all these things. When are you coming back here? I will come back on 5th. Fifth. Okay. So I'll meet you on the 5th then. No, I will ring you here. You give me the telephone number. No, we don't mind for them. We will crush them for all these things. They can't speak like that. If they will discredit India, then . . . One thing, general thing, that I am writing books and selling in foreign countries, and I'm bringing the money here. It is for India's sake. But somebody should tell in the House all these things. You can tell. That is the thing only. That is the point of Mr. Brahmānanda Reddy also. Yesterday he told me . . . This is the important point, that my books are sold daily sixty thousand dollars all over the world. I have made the Trust so all the collections should be divided fifty percent for constructing temple and fifty percent for reprinting books. But we don't take a paisa profit. So far as an author, they are selling, sixty thousand dollars. And even if I would have taken ten percent royalty then it would have been six thousand dollars. Six thousand dollars means . . . Hundred and eighty thousand dollars a month. No, no, no. Six thousand dollars means . . . say ten rupees. Sixty thousand per day. Sixty thousand per day. Actually. But we are all foregoing it for pushing on this movement, and if we bring that money and construct big, big temple or planetarium, what is the harm to India? Prabhupāda is bringing in more foreign exchange than even big business export concerns. I'm bringing regularly not less than ten lakhs of rupees per month. Sending to India. We must tell them all these things. You tell. That is the thing. This is the Brahmānanda Reddy told yesterday that some members must be briefed and they must tell something, so that my hands may be strengthened and so that I may . . . It is a great credit that I am selling my books and bringing ten lakhs of rupees from foreign country in India. That we will speak. And his mind is very clear. Brahmānanda Reddy, his mind is very clear, very clear, and he is appreciating. And he is in our favor hundred percent. Even not in our favor, I am working hard in foreign countries and bringing money to India. You should give us some credit. But instead of giving credit, I am being criticized in the Parliament. They are putting like this. They are putting this case like that, that foreign money is coming here to advertise the American embassies, like that. They are that talking like that. They may talk nonsense, but this is the fact. This is the fact. I have got my Book Trust Fund, and I've advised regularly to send eight lakhs of rupees per month. That is being spent in Bombay, in . . . I'm not collecting from here. That is correct. So if a Indian brings from foreign country by his labor eight lakhs of rupees per month, how much credit he should be given? He should be recognized. But instead of recognizing they are criticizing. This is their way, sir. That is their . . . they have to. They must do it. Because . . . So you kindly speak to the Parliament that, "This is the position, that he is working day and night . . ." Oh, no, I will speak very high about this. Let them . . . let the matter come. And if not come then we will take this matter. I will give the question. You please reply how much money is coming and in what way they are doing. Yes. I will ask the question. Prove that the American government is supplying some way. No. We are selling our books. Actually, when you go abroad you can even see how our income's coming, how our temples live. We are all over the world. That is our books are being printed. A very big thing it is. It is marvelous that you have done such a thing. It is proud of India that . . . *New York devotees just got a twelve*-story building right in the center, and I know the local Hindus, they are trying to build a small temple since twenty years, and they're not succeeding. And right in the center of New York we have a twelve-story building. Now all the Hindus are coming to us. You have got that picture, New York temple? *The Ratha*-yātrā picture? (discussion about who has pictures) Ratha-yātrā, the New York paper. In the new magazine. New York Times, Newsweek. All the Indians came. They said, "East Meets West." Now who has converted so many of . . . this is one party. (referring to kīrtana going on in temple room) Hundreds of parties like this, they are engaged in kīrtana . India government is sending so many professional dancers by paying them from the cultural department, and what I am getting? Not a single farthing. And still I am bringing. Ah, Indian culture is . . . you . . . nobody has done these things. Just like gurukula . *The Ratha*-yātrā festival, where is? *Oh, the news of Ratha*-yātrā. Here. "New York Celebrates Festival of Chariots." Even at the U.N. conference we were there. They welcomed Vedic . . . we presented a Vedic reply to the U.N. conference. Wherever possible we are presenting Vedic culture, Indian culture. And I have no support from the government. Let us have. And a professional dancer is going, and the government is paying. I'd like you to take this, because this also has an article at length about our gurukula system in America. (indistinct explanation) Unless they are appreciating this culture, how they are accepting? It is perfectly right. But they must do it like that. Who will do? Do it . . . we can give you all information. That I will speak each and every thing. I will give a speech about all these things in any way. I have got . . . This one is later. Just came. This is only a sample copy that we have. And what is your program, sir? My program is chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and write books. That's all. No, no, now. Staying in India. Yes, I am going to Vṛndāvana. Today? Tomorrow. Aaplog sab Brindavan ek din aaiye na. (You all come one day to Vṛndāvana.) And you are staying at Vṛndāvana up to . . . At least three weeks. Three weeks. Kṛṣṇa: So we can arrange a bus and take some . . . You will arrange for bus? Let them go. They have got their cars. They have their car also, and they have got this Taj and all these trains. Why you arrange? Let them spend. I wanted to work in India by spreading sankīrtana, provided I get little cooperation of the government. That we will talk. That we will talk. One cooperation is that we can bring immediately a small vans or buses so that we can go village to village, town to town. If I get government funding, then . . . because here, the buses are very costly, and at the same time they are not very good. But foreign buses . . . India hasn't got to pay anything, but simply let us have and work in India. This much facility wanted. Besides that, our men, they are coming, spending ten thousand rupees, and after three months or six months, "Get out, get out, get out." And Indians are not joining. Indians are not so sacrificing. But these boys, they have sacrificed everything. I am sure if some cooperation is coming from the government I can very soon change the face of India. But I am not getting any facilities. We have experimented in Bengal, and here also, he is also going, saṅkīrtana party. But he could not do it in a large scale for want of facilities. And in foreign countries these boys are so sacrificing spirit, as soon as we give him some program, immediately they make arrangement. Immediately. We are going village to village with books in buses. Hundreds of buses are working. In America. *In America, in Europe. They have got facilities, full facilities. And the government appreciates. Some of the governments, they have given public holiday of the Ratha*-yātrā. *This is from the Mayor of San Francisco proclaiming that Ratha*-yātrā is a public holiday. In America. Yes. Yes, fifty thousand people come every year. And this time, New York, the government, the police, they appreciated that this kind of dancing, it is not artificial. So here is life. They appreciated. What the American boys have got to dance for Kṛṣṇa unless it is from the heart? They are not dancing dogs, that I have trained them and they are dancing. This is the temple in New York. So there are so many things to be done in India, but I am, without getting any cooperation, I am getting opposition. Correct. Now let us . . . we must be active. We must be active. It will be good for the country, for the whole nation. And we will come Vṛndāvana also. Please come. I am there for three weeks. How many rupees per day for three days? *We have a thirty*-room guest house in Vṛndāvana. Thirty room! You bring eighty persons with you, make nice arrangements. If you want sir, that is charge. We charge. That is . . . you must charge it. Our charges are very nominal. A donation to the temple. That is perfectly correct. You must charge. If your members will get free. Yes. Each room has a fan, bath . . . It is . . . (indistinct) That is perfect. *I think air*-conditioned? No. *Some rooms are air*-conditioned, two or three . . . As far as your Governor Reddy, he went. He stayed there two days. He has certified . . . he sent me a recent letter, you'll be surprised. Ask Harikeśa to bring that letter, latest letter from Channerjee. No, I have seen that. I have seen that. Latest? Latest. Also I heard that this Channa Reddy, Governor of the U.P. I have seen. Here's one of our gurukula children. Let us cooperate. You'll see how I can change the face of India. Let us have now . . . let us train some members also. *And this is the only platform where real United Nation can be made. That is practical. That is practical. That United Nation has failed. If this Indian culture . . . I have given this philosophy to the American students: andha*-paṅgu-nyāya. That a lame man and a blind man, separately, both of them are useless. But when they combine together, the lame man is taken on the shoulder of the blind man, and the lame man has got eyes but he has no legs. He gives direction and the blind man goes. So the . . . at the present moment I am trying to spread this movement all over the world. But we have no means. So let America supply the money, and let them take our direction for the culture. That will be United Nation. And actually it will become. How they are dancing, black, white, Indian, American, European, in Ratha-yātrā? There is no politics. It is out of really spiritual ecstasy. Ah, what is politics? It's a perfectly religious movement. *So this is the real platform of United Nation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu . Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu (BG 18.54). At that time samaḥ sarveṣu . Na śocati na kāṅkṣati . They have no demand. These boys, they are working so hard. They never ask a single paisa from me. It is not possible for me to pay these foreigners as salaried man. That is not possible. They get minimum four thousand rupees, minimum. Minimum salary, America, is $400 dollars. That means four thousand rupees. So . . . and they are getting $800, $1200, $2000. And poverty is unknown in America. They do not know what is poverty. I see here the milk, they are standing in block. You can get as much milk as you want anywhere you go, any shop you go, you take immediately. Anything. Building materials—you simply order to the suppliers, immediately everything is there. Ah, but here there are so many difficulties. Here simply difficulties. In comparison to other countries, I have seen that it is simply difficulty. Frankly speaking. And to speak more frankly, why there is Emergency? Emergency means bad government. Otherwise, there is no necessity of Emergency. Emergency proves the government is not going nice. Is it not? Why Emergency? If it is normally going on nicely, then where is the question of Emergency? Emergency means that is something unnormal. Yes. If it is normal, there is no question of Emergency. That is the proof. Another thing, personally, from the Vedic point of view, I don't think India is ready to take actually democracy. Mass of people, they do not care for politics. You have better experience. There, in other countries, even a small man, he has got political sense. Ah, but they are educated. But here, mass of people, they do not know what is politics. One gentleman, he was my friend, it is in 1952 or '53, Mr. Datt. He was a statistics man. So he was going in the villages to take some statistics. He said to me, "In the village, they ask me, 'Bābujī, (in Bengali asking "When will the English return?"). So, log janta hi nahi kya ho raha hai. (people don't know what is going on.) The mass of people, they're for foreigners' rule, "Come and rule over us." Because the mass of people they have no sense of politics. "Anyone may come, and let them rule, we don't mind. Whatever little tax you want, you take, that's all right." The mass of people is like that. They are not concerned in politics. Under the circumstances, a democracy is not suitable for India. Long ago that Lord Curzon, he suggested this, that in India, monarchy is better. He suggested that some of the rāj family members should become King of India. It will be welcome. And our country, all along this monarchy was there. Democracy is idea now, but the monarch up to Parīkṣit Mahārāja, they were ideal, rājarṣi . People have so much faith in the monarch that whatever he does, it is right. Naradeva. Of course, nowadays things have changed. There is no difference. In the name of democracy this is the same thing. That's all. No, democracy means the people must have political sense. Then democracy is there. If the people have no political sense, artificially they are giving vote, that democracy . . . anyway, we are not political men, but so far whatever it may be, to change the present situation, I am confident if this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is taken seriously in India there will be very, very good change. That is absolute. So we can take up this work provided there is little cooperation from the government. Correct. So I will come to Vṛndāvana. Thank you. Jaya . (end) Conversation -- September 1, 1976, Delhi *. . . required to kill somebody, he'll do that—if it is required for his sense gratification. There are many instances that a woman is addicted to another man, and she has killed her husband, killed her son. Why? Sense gratification. I have seen one woman, my Godbrother's wife, she killed her son for being implicated with another man. I have seen it. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma ( SB 5.5.4). Things which are not to be done, they do it. Why? For the matter of sense gratification. They do it. That's a fact. So therefore simply for sense gratification they are prepared to do anything. That means pāpa . It is the verdict of the court that when a man kills another man he becomes mad. Without becoming mad, a man cannot kill another man. So everything is being done which is not sanctioned because for sense gratification. The whole world business is sense gratification. And at the end, when he's little spiritually inclined, he wants to satisfy senses by thinking artificially that "I shall become God." That is the greatest sense gratification. Because remaining a small living entity I have been hampered in my sense gratification. Now let me become God so that there will be no restriction of my sense gratification. Bhagavān . . . (indistinct) . . . because he has failed to satisfy his senses remaining non*-Bhagavān, now he wants to become Bhagavān. Yogī , that is also another sense gratification, that if I show some magic, if I can create little gold like this, hundreds and thousands of men will be after me and I shall live very nicely, just gratify my senses. These things are going on practically. The man who is manufacturing gold, and so many rich people are coming to his disciples and he's begging for a motorcar. If he can create gold, why he cannot create a motorcar? This is going on. Wo English me bol raha tha. (He was talking in English.) (break) Kya apka praśna hai? Apka praśna kya hai? (Do you have any question? What is your question?) Baat ye hai guruji ki ek mene do teen saal pehle kisiko 5000 rupaya loan diya tha, aur usne kaha tha ki 4-5 din me vapas kar dega lekin abhi tak vapas nahi kiya. (The thing is Guruji, 2-3 years back I had given someone a loan of 5,000 rupees, and he had said that he would return it in 4-5 days but he hasn't returned it yet.) Kaun 5000 liya tha? (Who had taken 5,000 from you?) Mera ek dost hai uska printing press hai. (I have a friend who runs a printing press.) Kam kya karta hai? (What work does he do?) Printing ka kam karta hai wo. (He does the job of printing.) . . . (indistinct background conversation) . . . Us praśna ko hamare pas lane se kya faida? Nahi to . . . hum kya kare? (So what is the use of getting that question to us? What can we do?) Nahi humne bahut koshish ki, aap sahi tarika boliye kaise usko . . . (No I tried a lot, if you could tell me what is the right way to . . . ) Hum uska tarika batayen, ye koi praśna hai? . . . Ye sab chalta hai, "hum 5000 rupaya mangte hain, aap dila dijiye to aap bada saheb ho jayiye". Ab agar wo 5000 rupaya humko milta hi nahin, aap kuch mantra laga kar usko dila dijiye tab hum manenge apko bada saheb aur nahin to nahi . . . Sadhu ka ye kam hai ki jo deta nahi usko dila de, bada saheb, mantra padke. Ye koi praśna hai sadhu ke liye. Ye sab chal raha hai. (We should say the solution, is that a question? These things are going on "I am asking for 5,000 rupees, you help me get it then you will become a big Sir". Now if I don't get that 5,000 rupees, you please do some magic and get it for me, then I shall consider you a big man, otherwise not. This is the work of a sage, who hasn't got anything, to give him something . . . Big Sir . . ., by reading some mantras. Is this a question which should be asked to a Sage? All these things are going on.) (Devotees chanting 'Hari Hari') Ye Sadhu ke pas jata hai aur: Māhārāj hamara pet me dard hai, aur sadhu usko koi dawai dega aur bada saheb. (They go to the Sage and tell him: Māhārāj I have pain in the stomach, and the sage gives him some medicine, then he would become a 'Big Sir'.) *Ye adalat ka kam hai. Sadhu*-santon ke pas bhagvan ka poocho, bhagvan ke bhakti ka poocho, bhagvan ke kuch smabandh ki baat karo, ye sab maya ke bat nahi. (These works are meant for the court. When you come to a Sage you must enquire about God, about devotion to God, topics related to God, and not topics related to maya.) Nahi mujhe jab maya milegi me Kṛṣṇa ji ko daan kar dunga na (No when I get the money, I will donate it to Kṛṣṇa.) Kṛṣṇa ko wo daan nahi chahiye. Ap usko bhul jaiye. (Kṛṣṇa doesn't want that money. You forget about it.) Sab to wo deta hai, ap usko kya denge? (He provides for everything. What can we give to him?) Apko 5,000 rupaya dila den to ap Kṛṣṇa ko denge. Abhi apke pas do chaar paise jo hain wo dijiye. (If you get that 5,000 rupees you will donate it to Kṛṣṇa. But whatever little amount you have now, you donate that first.) Sirf yahi dukh hain mujhe aur sab . . . (This is the only sadness I have, remaining everything . . .) To usko dena hoga de diya, jab lena hai to kabhi mil jayega. (This was your time to give, so you gave. When it's your time to get, then you will get it.) . . . (indistinct conversation) . . . *Sadhu kisko bataya jata hai? Bhagvan kisko sadhu bataya hai? To 'api cet su*-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ' (BG 9.30) jo bhagvat bhajan karta hai, 'ananya bhak' se wo sadhu hai. Wo māhātamā bada durlabh hai jo ki Vāsudev bhagwan ko hi sab kuch manta hai . . . 'bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ' (BG 7.19) Ye sab kaun māhātamā hai, kaun sahdhu hai iske vishay me bhagvan khud bata diya hai. Wo 'bhajate mām ananya-bhāk' wo sadhu hai. Unke pas Bhagvat bhajan karne ke liye puch sakte hain, rupaya kaise milega uske liye to aur sab . . . ye sab ajkal yahi chalta hai. (break) Sadhu ke pas, kis tarah se tapasya karni padti hai . . . kaise Bhagwan ka sanidhya labh ho sakega usko puchna chahiye. (Who is called as a Sage? Who has God declared as a sage? So api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ (BG 9.30) one who sings the glories of the Lord without deviation "Ananya bhak" he is a sage. That being is very rare who considers only Lord Vasudeva to be everything . . . bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19) These things like: 'Who is a Saint', 'Who is a Sage', the Lord himself has explained about these things. That one who is engagegd in devotional service without any deviation "bhajate mām ananya-bhāk" is a Sage. You can ask him about how to sing glories of the Lord. For things related to how to get money and all there are other . . . these things are all going on today. (break) How to perform austerities, how to get the association of supreme Lord, these things should be asked to a Sage.) . . . Prabhuji ek baat hai, Bhagvan ki itni seva ki hai . . . aur main prarthana karta hoon ki mujhe aise ashirwad chahiye ki me bhagwan ko kabhi bhulun na aur jo kaam me karun unke liye karun. . . yehi mai aapse aashirvad mangta hoon. Aur kabhi gande kaam me mera dyan na jaye, sachai bolun. . . (. . . Prabhuji there is one thing, I have rendered so much service to the Lord. . . I worship God that I want this blessing: I should never forget God and whatever work I do, I should do it for him . . . also this is the blessing I seek from you. Also, my mind should never be engaged in any dirty works, I should always speak the truth . . .) Bhagvan apko aashirvad kare. (May the Lord bless you.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Devotees chanting 'Jay Prabhupāda')'kirtaniya sada Hari' 'satatam kirtayanto' Sab samay kirtan karo. Kam karo aur Hare Kṛṣṇa bolne me kya nuksan hai. (All the time sing the names of God. Do your work but what is the loss in saying Hare Kṛṣṇa.) . . . (indistinct) . . . Karo to sahi, shuru to karo. Bhagwan bole 'satatam kirtayanto' sab samay bhagwan ka kirtan karo aur sab samay nahi hota hai to jahan tak hota hai karo, lekin karo. (break) Kirtan karo baith ke. (Do it, start at least . The Lord said: 'satatam kirtayanto' all time sing the glories of the Lord. And if it's not possible to do all time, then do as much as you can, but start doing. (break) Sit down and do kirtana .) . . . (indistinct) . . . *Krodh, jaise Hanumān ji kiya tha. Jaise Hanuman ji wo Rāvan ka ghar jala diya. Bina krodh se koi kisika ghar jala sakta hai? To krodh ka aise vyavahar karo. To Rāvan ka ghar kyun jalaya? Ye bewakoof Sitā ji ko le aaya, badmash, uska ghar jala diya. Krodh . . . jo rakshas hai, bhagvan ka abhakt hai uske upar khub krodh karo. (Anger, like Hanumān ji had displayed? Like Hanumān ji had burnt down the house of Rāvana. Can anyone burn down a house without anger? So you should utilize anger in this way. So why did he burn down Rāvana's palace? This foolish rogue man kidnapped Sitā, so he burnt down his house. Whoever is demoniac, non*-devotee, you should be very angry on them.) Kabhi kabhi bahut jyada krodh ata hai. (I get very angry sometimes.) Bahut karo, jab ghar jala diya to baki kya reh hai . . . Abhi krodh kitna ho sakta hai? Utna krodh kahan ayega? Ap kisika ghar jala sakti ho? Hanumān ji ne kiya tha isliye Hanumān ji ka aj tak puja karte hain, kyunki krodh kiya tha. Bichare vendanta ko nahi padha tha, padhe to jane Krodh kiya lekin Rām ke liye, apne liye nahi kiya. Krodha ka vyavahr hai bhagwan ke liye. Jo Bhagvan ko maanta nahi aur bhakt ko takalif deta hai, uske upar khub krodh kijiye, ghar jala dijiye. Krodh ka bhi vyavahr hai, krodh hai to krodh dikhao kahan tak hai krodh. (Do more, When he burnt a house, what more is left . . . Now how much high can anger be? Where would you get that much anger? Can you burn down somebody's house? Hanumān ji did it that's why till today he is being worshipped, because he became angry. Poor guys, they dont read the scriptures, if they read they will get to know that he displayed anger but only for Rāma, not for himself. The use of anger is done for Lord's service. The one who does not believe in God, and gives trouble to devotees, you should be very angry with them, you should burn down their houses. There is proper use of anger as well. If you have anger then display that anger.) Krodh me to anisht bhi hota hai. (In anger, we perform forbidden things sometimes.) *Anisht hoye chod tum bhagvan ke liye karo. Hum bolta hai agar tumhare pas krodh hai to usko . . . ye krodh bhagvan ke liye vyavahar karo. Jaise Hanumān ji kiya tha. Hai to Māhājan hai 'Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ' (CC Madhya 17.186) Bade*-bade Māhājan bhakt log jaise kaam kiya hai . . . wo Hanumān ji ke pas krodh tha tabhi to wo kiya, to apke pas krodh hai ap bhi wese kijiye. Is prakar apka krodh jab vyavahar hojayega fir apko shanti milegi. (Leave about the forbidden things, you did it for the Lord. I am saying if you have anger . . . use that anger for the service of Lord. Just like Hanumān did it. He is a self-realized predecessor Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) Whatever is done by big big self realized predecessors, devotees . . . Hanumān ji had anger that's why he did it, so if you have anger you also utilize in the same way. In this way when you utilize your anger then you will find peace.) . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda:' Kya puch raha hai? ( What is he asking?) Kehta hai Bhagvan ka naam kis tarah liya jata hai mujhe batao. (He wants to know how to chant the name of the Lord.) *Kis tarah se leta hai dekhta nahi hai ap, phir kaise batayega apka jab ankh nahi hai. Ye sab kaise leta hai, din bhar kirtan karta hai. Ye koi mushkil hai kya? Dekho wo jaise karta hai waise karo, usme kya hai seekhna? Ye to baccha bhi kar lega. Us din baccha kirtan kiya na, usme seekhne ka kya hai? Jo dekhe usiko karo. Aaiye, han, aiiye. Dekh ke sikhna hota hai, jaise kaunsa bhi sevak hai . . . Hanumān ji se jake seekho . . . Jo dekh ke sikhta hai wo bada chalak hai. Ek aadmi ko zabardasti aise karo*-waise karo bolne se sikhta hai to usko der lagta hai aur jo dekh ke sikhta hai jaldi seekh jata hai, wo bada chatur hai. Adarsh . . . adarsh sab cheez ka hai, wo adarsh hum le aaye, yehi humlog ka pantha hai 'Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ' (CC Madhya 17.186). Bade-bade bhakt log jaise rasta dikhaye hain usko anusaran karo sab seekh jaoge. Tarko ’pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā (CC Madhya 17.186) Ye tark karke seekhna, wo tark karenge, hum unse jyada tark karenge, koi aur humse zyada tark karega, usse koi labh nahi hai. Aur yadi ved vedanta padhenge to hum dekhenge ved me kuch aur likha hai aur doosre ved me aur kuch likha hai aur darshnik vichar karenge 'Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam'(CC Madhya 17.186) aur ye muni ko daba nahi sakta hai to uska jo philosophy hai wo bhi thik nahi hai aise bata denge. (Aren't you seeing how they are chanting, then how can I explain if you don't have the eyes. How do they chant, they chant the whole day. Is it difficult? See how they are doing, you do like them, what is there to learn in this? Even a child can do this. That day the children chanted, what is there to learn? Whatever you have seen, you should do that. Come, please come. You must see by seeing, just as we have the devotees, go and learn from Hanumān ji . . . one who learns by seeing is very clever. If one forcibly keeps telling you to do like this, like that, then it takes time to learn but one who sees and learns, he learns quickly, he is very intelligent. Everything has got certain principles that we have brought. This is our belief system. Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) Whatever path the great devotees have shown ,just follow it and you will learn everything. Tarko ’pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā (CC Madhya 17.186)) Learning by giving arguments, he will give some argument, we will then try to add some more argument, and somebody else will give more argument than us, there is no benefit from these arguments. And if we study the vedanta then we know something else is written in the 'vedas', and in some other 'veda' there is some other thing which is written then we try to think philosophically. Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (CC Madhya 17.186) and if they can't suppress the saint, then whatever philosophy he has given, they just mark it as incorrect. *'Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ'(CC Madhya 17.186) isiliye jo dharma vastu hai uska tattva bada gambhir hai. To kis tarah se sikha jaye? 'Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ'(CC Madhya 17.186) Bade*-bade Māhājan jis tarah se rasta dikhaye hain usko follow karo. Hamare vedic niyam se sab māhān acharya hain, jaise aaj kal pehle Sri sampradaya, Rudra sampradaya, Brahma sampradaya, Kumar sampradaya, to shastra me sab bataya hai kaun-kaun mahajan hain: 'Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ prahlādo janako bhīṣmo balir vaiyāsakir vayam (ŚB 6.3.20) ye sab Māhājan hain. Naradji hain, Brahmaji hain, Mahadev Shivji hain, aur Kapil hain, Manu hain, Prahlād maharaj hain, Janak māhārāj hain, Bhishmadev hain, dwadash māhājan shastra me bataya gaya hai, wo log jaise jaise kaam kiya hai us tarah se hum log anusaran karen aur unko jo adarsh hai usko follow karen. ( Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ (CC Madhya 17.186) Therefore the matters related to dharma is very deep. So how should we learn it? Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) We should follow the path shown by the great self realized personalities. In our Vedic culture we have very great teachers as nowadays the Sri sampradaya, Rudra sampradaya, Brahma sampradaya, Kumar sampradaya. So all this is mentioned in the scriptures, who are the great personalities, Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ prahlādo janako bhīṣmo balir vaiyāsakir vayam (ŚB 6.3.20) these are the great personalities. We have Narad ji, Brahma ji, Mahadev Shiv ji, Kapila muni, Manu, Prahlād Māhārāj, Janak Māhārāj, Bhismadeva, these 12 great personalities are mentioned in the scriptures. We should follow the work they have done and follow their ideals.) Thank you. *. . .(indistinct) . . . Kalyug me kirtan se uddhar ho sakta hai. Bhagwan Kṛṣṇa Gita me kehte hain ki sthita*-pragya ke liye dhyan yoga. . . (. . . In Kali yuga by chanting the Lord's name one can be elevated. Lord Kṛṣṇa has said in the Gitā that for a person to be equipoised . . .) *Wo sthita*-pragya ho jayega Rām-naam karo. Bhagvan ka naam karo, bhagvan ka smaran karo. Rām ka naam liya to Rām ka to dhyan ho jayega. Dhanurdhari Rām, Sitāji baithe hain, Hanumān ji baithe hain, Lakshman ji hain, ye sab dhyan hogaya. Kya mushkil hai. Kisi ka naam lene se uska sab kaam dhyan me aata hai ki nahin, usi prakar aap yadi Rām ka naam lenge to sath sath Rām ka dhyan bhi ho jayega (verse). Yadi aap dhyanavastit hokar ke bhagvan ko dhyan karenge to fir yogi hogaye. Aur pehle se thik thak kar liya ki Rām ka haat nahi hai, pair nahi hai, naak nahi hai, aankh nahi hai, to kis par dhyan karnege. To keval klesh hoga. (verse) Bhgavan ka dhyan kijiye, Bhagvan ka naam lijiye, jo hogaya sawar lijiye. Shastra me bataya hai (verse). Dhyan ka, meditation ka arth kya hota hai. Jo man ko sab samay bhagvan ke charan me laga deta hai ye samadhi hai. (Chant the names of the Lord and you will become equipoised. Take the names of the Lord, remember Him. If you chant the names of Lord Rāma then automatically meditation happens on Lord Lord Rāma. Lord Rāma with bow and arrow, Sitā seated next to Him, Hanumān ji is also sitting and Lakshman is there, all this is meditation. What is the difficulty? When you take a person's name, all his activities will come to your mind or not. Similarly if you take Lord Rāma's name then automatically you will meditate on the Lord. (verse). If you meditate with single minded devotion towards to Lord then you will become a yogi. And beforehand if you fix that Lord Rāma does not have hands, does not have legs, does not either eyes or ears then what will you meditate on. Then there will be only tribulation. (verse). Meditate on the Lord, take the names of the Lord, fix everything. In the scriptures it is said (verse). What is the meaning of meditation? One who focuses his mind all the time on the lotus feet of the Lord, that is trance.) *Bhagvan ki siddhi aur moksh prapt karne ke raste ek hi hai ya alag*-alag? (Are the ways of obtaining mystic powers and liberation one and the same?) Moksh ka arth aap kya samjhte hain? (What do you understand the meaning of liberation?) Shakti, jaise shakt log hain shakti ko prapt karte hain. (Power, like how we have the 'shakta's' who aquire the power.) *Shakti me moksh nahi hai. Shakti, ye material power . . . (indistinct) . . . usme moksh nahi hai. Material power usko shakti 'dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpa*-pati-bhājaṁ dehi' lo usko aur phas jao. Ye sab duniya me jo power chahte hain wo phas jate hain ki nahin, ye aapko maloom hai ki nahin. To duniya ka shakti labh hone se, aap phas jaiyega yahi labhi hoga. Wo to moksh nahi hai, wo to phasne wala baat hai. Shakti ye nimn star ka vyajan hai, ye duniya ka power chahte hain, jo shakti upasak hai. Ye shakti analysis karke dekhte hai aag me shakti jyada hai to agni upasak ho jate hain. Aur fir jo aag pe analysis karke dekhta hai, jo aag jo aata hai wo surya ke agni se aata hai, to surya ka upasak hai. Ye shakto. Isi tarah shakt aur kya nam hai danapatta, aur souryo . . . ye sab panch upasana hai . . . (indistinct) . . . It is gradual state. To asal me vishnu upasana hi mukhya hai. (verse) to jitna upasana hai wo sab karte-karte jab usko theek chiz maloom hoga 'ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param' (Padma Purāṇa). To sadharan vyakti nahi jante hain (verse) to sartha gatim kya hai jante nahi he isliye kabhi shakti me phas jate hain, kabhi agni me fas jate hain, pancha-upasak. Aur swayam Vishnu aa karke bata rahe hain tum ye sab chodo 'sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ' (BG 16.66) usme tumhara sab labh hai. (verse) Aur jisko Bhagwan ka krpa labh ho gaya wo aur kisika kripa nahi chahte hain. (There is no lieration in power. 'Shakti', this is material power . . . there is no liberation in that. Acquiring material power 'dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpa-pati-bhājaṁ dehi' and getting more entangled. All the people in the world who want power, don't they get trapped, do you know this or not? So if you get the material power, you will get entangled more and that's the only benefit. That is not liberation, that is entanglement. Power is a low form of energy, whoever are the worshippers of power, they want power of this world. The analyze this power and see, there is power in the fire, so they become worshippers of fire. Now they analyze the fire and they find out this fire actually comes from Sun's heat , then they become worshippers of the Sun. Like this there are 'Shakta's' , 'Shouryo' . . . there are five types of worshippers . . . (indistinct) . . . It is gradual state. So in reality, worship of Lord Vishnu is the most important. So out of all the different kinds of worship, after doing everything when he realizes the correct thing 'ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param' (Padma Purāṇa). So normal people do not know this, and they sometimes get stuck in power, or fire . . . they get stuck in the worship of these five types. And Lord Vishnu himself comes and tells, you leave all this sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (BG 16.66, your benefit is in that.) And whoever has received the blessings of the lord, they don't need blessings from anyone else. . . . (indistinct) . . . Ishwar darshan, bhagvan darshan kya hai? (What does the darshan of God mean?) Pehle to aapko ye nischit karna chahiye ki kiska darshan chahte hain. Abhi to bataya na shakti, daanpatra, souryo anek prakar upasana hai. Aapko kya chahiye tab bataya jayega kis tarah se upasana karne se labh milega. (First you must decide whose darshan you want to have. Just now I mentioned 'Shakta' , 'Shouryo', there are different kinds of worship. Which one you want, then we can say how to perform the worship to get the benefit.) First of all you must fix up what you want. What is realization? Realization—everything is realization. If you can do business well, that is also realization. Realization of God. Then you, if you want . . . Realization of God. Realization of God, To wo to Bhagwan bata rahe hain (So Lord is saying), bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). So "If you want to know Me, then bhaktyā , bhakti ." Ye to bataye nahi gyan se, karma se, yog se humko mil sakte hain, nahi. (It is not said that you will obtain God by knowledge, by duty, by yoga , no.) Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ . If you want to know God really, then you have to take this path, bhakti . If you want something else, that is a different thing. *Pehle to aapko fix*-up hona chahiye ki aapko chahiye kya. (First you have to decide what it is that you want.) Aur Prabhupāda, ye sākār aur nirākār me kaafi matbhed chalta hai. Sākār samne pratyaksh murti rakne se, hriday me dhyan ekatrit karke aur kendrit karke hum puja kar sakte hain, bhakti kar sakte hain, lekin nirākār me dhyan nahi jamta hai. To apka iske bare me kya vichar hai aur . . . (And Prabhupāda, there is a lot of difference of opinion in the form and formless formless feature of the Lord. In the form, we can keep the Deity in front of us, meditate in our mind and worship the Deity and do devotion but in formless we cannot meditate. So what is your view on this and . . .) Ye nirākār ka arth pehle samajhiye. Nirākār aakār ko nakharch kar dena, Nirākār - aakar hai baki usko nakharch karke . . . (indistinct) . . . To bhagvan jo hai wo dekhta hai baki uska aankh nahi hai. Aise ye sab vichar, to ab sochna chahihye ki aankh nahi hai to dekhta kaise hai, ye vichar karna hai (verse). Ye achaksur jo hai nirākār hai aur pashyati jo hai wo aakār. (Try to understand the meaning of the word formless first. Formless means to break the form, form is there but . . . (indistinct) . . . We say the Lord is seeing everything but he doesn't have eyes. These thoughts are going on, now one should contemplate if there are no eyes then how is he seeing, you should think about this. (verse) This 'achaksur' is formless and 'pashyati' is form.) *Isliye aapko nischay karna chahiye ki bhagvan dekhta hai, baki wo unka hamara jaisa aankh nahi hai, ye nirākār hai. Hum jaise dekh rahe hain, ye kamre ke bhitar sab dekh rahe hain aur diwar ke udhar kya hai dekh nahi sakte. Aur jo bhagvan hai wo sab dekhta hai (verse) sab jagah unka haat hai , pair hai. Isliye vichar karna chahiye ki bhagvan ka haat, pair sabhi hai baki hamare jaise nahin hai. Ye vichar karna chahiye. Jo ye hamara jaise hai hi nahi wo nirākār hai aur unka jo haat*-pair hai wo aakār. Isliye shastra me bataya hai 'ISVARA PARAMA KRISHNA SACHIDANANDA VIGRAHA ANADIR AADIR GOVINDA SARVA KARANA KARANAM'. Unka jo vigrah hai, aakār hai wo sacidanand hai, sac-cit-anand. To jahan sacidanand kaha gaya hai ye jo sharir hai ye nirākār hai, kyunki ye jo sharir hai ye sat nahi hai, asat, (verse). Ye sharir to naash ho jayega. Bhagvan ka sharir hai baki maas-mans sharir nahi hai. Isliye bhagvan kehte hain mai jab aata hoon to ye moorkh log samjhte hai ki sadharan manushya jaisa hai 'avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā' mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam' (BG 9.11). (Therefore first you should decide that God can see, but he does not have eyes like us, this is formless. Like how we are able to see what is inside this room but what is there behind the wall we can't see. But the Lord can see everything, (verse). He has his hands and legs everywhere. So we must think that His hands and legs are there but not like ours. So this must be considered. So the one which is not like us, is formless and the hands and legs which the Lord has is the form. Hence it is said in the scriptures that ISVARA PARAMA KRISHNA SACHIDANANDA VIGRAHA ANADIR AADIR GOVINDA SARVA KARANA KARANAM Lord's deity, the form , is sac-cit-ananda , full of eternity, knowledge and bliss. So where it is said eternity, knowledge and bliss, but this body of ours is not eternal, it is temporary (verse) This body will perish. God's form is there but not made of flesh and bones. So God says, when I descend these rascals think that I am an ordinary person like them Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā' mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11)) *Kyunki ye do haat*-payr leke main aaya hoon to moorkh log samjhte hai ki hamara jaise koi vyakti hai baki wo sachidananda vigrah hai. 'sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā' (BG 4.6) ye sab vachan hai Bhagavad-Gita me. Bhagvan ka jo sharir hai wo hamara jaisa sharir nahi hai 'janma karma ca me divyam' (BG 4.9). To bhagvan ka sharir kya hai usko agar samajh jaye to wo . . . baki wo samajhta nahi hai, wo samajhta hai hamara jaisa vyakti hai aur unko ye mayavadi log kehte hai jab bhagvan aate hai to maya ka sharir dharan karke aate hain. To nirākār ka artha hota hai bhagvan ka bhautik sharir nahi hai. Bhagvan ka sharir hai sac-cit-anand vigraha. Agar sacidanand vigraha nahi hota to 7 varsh ke umar me koi pahad utha sakta hai, boliye. (Just because I have appeared with 2 hands and legs, these rascals think that He is a person like us, but he is sac-cit-ananda vigraha sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6). All these statements are given in the Bhagavad-gita . The form of God is not like ours. janma karma ca me divyam (BG 4.9) So if one understands the form of God then . . . but he does not understand and thinks the Lord is like one of us, and to this the impersonalists say that whenever God appears He comes with this maya form. So the meaning of formless is that God does not have a material form like us. God's form is full of eternity, knowledge and bliss. If His form was not eternal, full of knowledge and bliss then how could a 7 year old lift such a big mountain on a little finger, tell me.) Mera matlab ye tha prabhuji ki jab hum puja karte hain baithte hain agar samne murti hoti hai Bhagwan ki sākār murti ho ya chitra ho, to us par dhyan jaldi aakarshit hota hai, kendrit hota hai. Lekin agar hum bina murti ke dhyan karne baithe nirākār ka, to wo dhyan kendrit ho nahi pata hai. To kya koi jariya hai sākār ke dwara nirākār pahuchne ka? (I meant to say this Prabhuji that if we sit in front of the Deity or a photo of God to worship Him, then our mind gets drawn to the Deity very quickly. But if we sit meditating on the formless, then it's very difficult to focus and meditate. So is there any way to achieve the formless through the form?) *Nirākār kyun pahunchega, nirākār pahuchna nahi hai. Wo aap jante nahi je bhagvan ka aakār kya hai. Wo agyan ko door kijiye. Bhagvan to nirākār hai hi nahi, sachidanand vigraha. Vigraha ka arth hota hai murti. To fir bhagvan ke murti ko aap nirakar karne kyun chahte hain. Aur jo nirākār karne ko chahte hai usko 'kleśo ’dhika*-taras teṣām' (BG 12.5) usko adhik klesh hota hai, aur kuch nahi milta hai. (Why would he reach the formless, he doesn not have to reach the formless. You don't know that the Lord has a form. Remove this ignorance first. God is not formless, He is sac-cid-ananda . The meaning of 'Vigraha' is Deity. Why do you want to make God's Deity formless? And one who wants to make Him formless, he suffers a lot, kleśo ’dhika-taras teṣām (BG 12.5) he does not get anything.) Find out this verse. Aisa shastron me bataya gaya hai kali kaal me . . .(indistinct) . . . (It is mentioned in the scriptures that in this 'Kali yuga' . . .) (break) Pehle samjhiye Bhagvan nirākār nahi hai. Bhagvan ka aakār hai baki . . . (First of all understand that God is not formless. God has a form . . .) Somebody . . . why don't you send? What they are doing, all these rascals, that they cannot read? Someone should come in? Yes. But they do not know that somebody should remain there. Why they are there? What they are doing there? Harikeśa is typing. Pradyumna is reading Sanskrit books. *Just see. Send Pradyumna immediately. Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām avyaktasakta*-cetasam. Kleśa . Beginning with kleśa . (devotees tries to find verse) You could not? Kleśa . K-l-e-s . Why don't you come here? And who will find out? Come here. Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām ? *Why do you say that you do not find? Find out. They are not accustomed. Kleśo'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta*-cetasām (BG 12.5). Ye bhagvan swayam bata diya, jo nirākār bhajan karne wala hai uska kewal klesh adhik hota hai. To apko klesh hua to wo to hoga hi. Ye to shastra me bata diya. Apko sukh kaise hoga. Jab shastra batata hai adhik klesha, jisko adhik klesh usko sukh kaise hoga. (The Lord himself has already said, one who worships the formless, for him only tribulation increases. So if you are having to suffer, then it was bound to happen. This is already told in the scriptures. How will you feel happiness? When the scripture says too much suffering, then how can one who is suffering get happiness.) (Pradyumna enters) Read it. Ah. Avyaktā hi gatir duḥkham. Avyakta chintan karne kewal dukh labh hota hai aur kuch labh nahi Read it. (If you meditate on the unmanifested form then you get only sadness, nothing else.) "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied." Yes. Wo rasta ko pakadne se apko klesh adhik hoga, Bhagvan khud bata rahe hain, to apko sukh kaise milega. (The Lord himself says, if you take that path then you have to suffer a lot. So how will you get happiness? You are expecting happiness by thinking of impersonal form of the Lord. That is not possible. You simply get troubles, that's all. Ye to aap buddhiman hain, bhagyavan hain, jiska apko anubhav hua hai. Aur jo moorkh hota hai usko klesh bhi hota hai aur wohi rasta me jata hai. Wo janta hai usme klesh hota hai phir usi me jata hai. Aisa moorkh hota hai. Apko to bhagvan kripa kiya. Koi chahte hain ki khushi se hum klesh uttaye, wo moorkh jati hai. Ye buddhiman klesh ke rasta me kyun jaye. Isme anand hota hai idhar Bhagvan ka murti hai, dekho kitna sundar sajaya hai, nach rahe hain, gaa rahe hain, isme anand hai. Nirākār kuch nahi hai. (You are intelligent, and fortunate that you are experiencing this. And one who is foolish suffers and still continues on the same path. He knows that the path is full of suffering but still goes on that path. Such foolishness. God has showered His mercy on you. No one wants to take suffering happily, such people are rascals. Why should the intelligent person go on the path of suffering? Is there happiness? Here we have God's Deity, see how nicely it is decorated, they are dancing, they are singing - this is happiness, bliss. There is no formlessness.) What is the purport? *"The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jñāna*-yogis , and persons who are in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord, are called bhakti-yogis . Now here the difference between jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed." *Kṛṣṇa personally says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). To aap agyan panth ka kyun lijiye. Yadi aap bhagvan ko janane ko chahte hain, bhagvan bata rahe hain 'bhaktya mam abhijanati' to aap agyan panth kyun lenge. Fir apko klesh hoga (verse) To jo . . . Bhagvan sab bata diya hai, do rasta hai (verse) jo abhakton me aasakt hain usko adhik klesh hota hai. (Why do you want to take the ignorant path? If you want to know God, then God himself is saying " bhaktya mam abhijanati " then why will you take the path of ignorance? Then you will have suffering (verse). So, the Lord has already mentioned, there are 2 ways (verse), the one who is attached to non*-devotees gets more suffering.) So If you like to tolerate adhik-kleśa , that is your choice. Otherwise, Bhagavān, sac-cid-ānanda . . . Srivigraha ka aaradhan kijiye, usko sajaiye, sabko khane ko dijiye, prasad paiye, kirtan kijiye, dance kijiye, dekhiye anand milega. To anand ka path chod karke aagar klesh ka path lijiyega to ye aapke kushi ke baat hai. (Worship the Deity, decorate it, Offer food to the deities , feed prasadam to everyone, you also honor prasadam , perform congregational chanting, dancing and you will get bliss. So if you discard the path of bliss and take the path of suffering, it is your choice.) You can accept any way. That is your choice. *Ye sab shastra me hai. (All this is given in the scriptures.) Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa vigraha. Sac-cid-ānanda vigraha (BS 5.1). *Nirākār kyon? Artificially wo vigraha bhagvan ko nirākār karne ko kyun chahte hain. Isme apko kya labh hoga. Isko jawab dijiye. Aap bahut accha sākār se nirākār jayenge. Jab bhagvan ka sacidananda vigraha mauzood hai aap wahan se phir, nirākār roop bhi unka hai, sabhi to wohi hai 'brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate' (SB 1.2.11). To bhagvan aakhir roop hai. To bhagvan ka roop chod karke . . . jaise Suryadev hai. Wo suryadev suryalok me hai aur unka sab chata . . . to Suryadev ka sharir ka prakash se ye sab prakash hai, to udhar se idhar aane ka jaroorat kya hai, idhar se udhar jaiye. Surya ka jo prakash hai, roudra dhoop hai, dhoop se aahiste*-aashiste suryalok me jaiye. Suryalok me jake suryadev ka darshan kariye, ye paddhati hai. Aap suryalok me gaya, suryadev ka darshan kiya, chalo fir dhoop me chalo, ye kaun sa vichar hai, boliye. Idhar se udhar jayenge na udhar se idhar aayenge. Jisko bhakti hai usko gyan yog hai. Jisko bhakti hai wo bina gyan bhakt kaise hoga. (Why formless? Why do they want to artificially make the Deity of God formless? What benefit do you get from it? Answer this. You will go very nicely from form to formless. When God's form of eternity, bliss and knowledge is there, He is also formless, He is everything. brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). So ultimately God has form. Then why do you forget His form? Like how we have Sun God. The Sun God is in the sun planet and all his rays, the sunshine from the sun's body illuminates everything. Then what is the need to come from there to here, instead go from here to there. The light of the sun, the heat - from the sunshine, he gradually enters into the sun planet. Enter into the sun's planet and have darshan of Sun God, this is the process. And he goes to the Sun planet, gets darshan of the Sun God and then again comes out in the sun, what's these kind of thoughts called, tell me. Will you go from here to there or come from there to here . . . one who has devotion, has got knowledge. One who has devotion, how will he become devotee without knowledge?) *Jab tak purna gyan usko nahi hota ki bhagvan ye hai 'bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ' (BG 7.19) jab tak apko purna gyan nahi hoga to bhagvan ko kaise samjhenge. Bhagvan ko samajhna kya sadharan baat hai 'manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ' (BG 7.3). To bhagvan ko samajhna aisa maamuli baat hai kya. Hazaron-karodo aadmi siddhi labh karne ke liye prayatna karte hain aur jo siddhi labh kiye hue hain usme abhi tak koi bhagvan ko janta nahi. Gyan purna ho jayega to bhagvan ko samajh jayenge. Jab bhagvan ko jante nahin, uske gyan ka kya mulya hai. Vo to agyan hai 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.15). Ved-vedanta ko padh kar bhi yadi bhagvan ko nahi samjha, to phir apke gyan ka kya fayda hua. (Until he has complete knowledge, that God is this: Unless you have complete knowledge, how will you understand God? Is it an ordinary thing to understand God? So is it such a simple thing to understand God? Thousands and crores of people are trying to obtain mystic powers and out of those who have got these powers, no one has understood God yet. When the knowledge is complete, then you will understand God. When you don't know God, what is the value of your knowledge? That is ignorance. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo (BG 15.15) Even after reading so many scriptures - the vedas , the vedanta —if one has not understood God, then what is the use of such knowledge?) . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhakti yog ke liye to prem ki jarurat hai. (To perform bhakti yog, we need love.) Sastra vachan dekhiye, ki jiska gyan nahi hai wo kya bhagwan ko samjhega. To isliye jo bhagwan ko samjha hai usko gyan jarur hai. Aur jo bhagwan ko samjha nahi uska gyan ka kya kimat. 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.14) Ved ka artha hota hai gyan to sab ved ka uddesya kya hai? Ki Bhagwan ko samarpan karna. Aur yadi wahan tak ap pahunche nahi Bhagwan kya chiz he nahi samjhte hain, to apko gyani kehne ka kya matlab hai, wo to agyani hai. Aisa to gyan, jo mistri hai usko bhi kuch gyan hai. Thoda bahut gyan sabhi ka hota hai. Gyan sabhi ko hota hai, bacha ko bhi hota hai. Jiv matr ko kuch na kuch gyan hota hai. Kuch Kuch gyan ka baat nahi he, purna gyan. Jo purna gyan hai wo Bhagwan ko samjehnge. Uska naam purna gyan. (See the statements of the scriptures, the one who doesn't have the knowledge, what will he understand God. So the one who has understood God, he definitely has knowledge. And the one who did not understand God, what is the value of his knowledge. 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.14) The meaning of 'ved' is knowledge, so what is the purpose of all the scriptures? To surrender to the supreme Lord. And if you haven't reached there, and did not understand what is God then what is the meaning of calling you a 'Gyani', he is called as ignorant. Even a craftsman has some knowledge. Little bit knowledge is there with everyone. Even a child has some knowledge. Every being has some or the other knowledge. But we are not talking about little knowledge . . . complete knowledge. One who has complete knowledge can understand the Lord. That's known as complete knowledge. ) Prabhuji ahankār ko kis tarah mitaya jaye? (Prabhuji how to get rid of ego?) *To ahankār . . . jab tak ap samjhke baithe ho ki hum bada gyani hai to ahankār kaise jayega? So pehle apne ko samjhna hai maha*-murkha hai tab apko jayega. Jab tak ap ye nahi samjhenge ki hum maha-murkh hai tab tak ap agyani rahenge. (So, ego . . . till the point you believe I am very knowledgeable then how will ego go? So first you must consider yourself as a great fool, then ego will disappear. Till the time you don't consider yourself as a great fool, you will stay ignorant.) . . . (indistinct conversation) . . . Hum kal bhi aye the apke darshan ke liye magar time hogaya tha. Mummy aur papa bhi . . . (We came yesterday as well to see you, but it was late. Mom and dad also . . .) Acha. Abhi sab aye hain? (Okay. Everyone has come today?) Hum log prabhuji shayad is mahine me ja rahe hain . . . (inidistinct) . . . (We are planning to go this month Prabhuji . . .) Jaiye. Abhi to hum logon ko bhari palace he . . . Wo makan banane me , 50 varsha pehle 6 million dollar kharcha hua tha. Paris me hai bahut bada. (Please go. Now we have a big palace . . . It cost 6 million dollar to build that place 50 years ago. There's a big one in Paris.) Guruji ek baat hai, kehte hain kuch log ki tum puja karte ho path karte ho, ek ghanta do ghanta karte ho lekin agar tumhara dhyan nahi laga to vyarth hai. To pura dhyan nahi lagta to hume nahi karna chahiye? Jaise hum kar rahe hain kuch adha ghanta, ek ghanta . . . dusre log kehte hain tum ek ghanta baithi ho tumne puja kiya, to tumhara ek ghanta dhyan laga? Yadi nahi laga to tum do minute kyun nahi karte ho, to fir kya karna chahiye? Agar man lijiye hamara puri tarah dhyan nahi laga to kya puja nahi karni chahiye? (Guruji there is 1 thing, some people say you worship for half and hour or 1 hour but if your mind is not fixed then it's all waste. So if we are not able to concentrate fully then what should we do? Like we sit for half an hour or 1 hour . . . and other people say, you sat for 1 hour and you did worship, so were you able to concentrate for that 1 hour? If not, then why don't you sit just for 2 mins, so what should be done in that case? So suppose we don't have any concentration, what should be done in that case?) *Iska vichar bahut bhari hai. Ap Bhagavad*-gītā padhiye. Unme sab baat bataya gaya hai. Kuch log kehte hai, aise bahut se log hain wo sab kehne se kya labh. (This idea is very deep. You read Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is mentioned there. Some people say, like this many people keep saying what's the use of that.) . . . (indistinct) . . . Vishay to apko chahiye. Mind khali nahi reh sakta hai. Ek chiz ko chodiye to aur ek chiz ye me hoga. To Kṛṣṇa ko lijiye to nirvisay hoga. Aur Kṛṣṇa ko nahi lijiyega to visay me rahega. Bhakti yog ka artha hota hai vairagya yog. Aiye, ap piche kyun hai? Abhi aye kya? (You need some topic. Mind can't remain ideal. If you leave one topic, it will go to other. So take your mind to Kṛṣṇa and then it will become out of topics. And if you don't take to Kṛṣṇa then you will always still in the thoughts. The meaning of Bhakti yog is yog of detachment. Come, why are you sitting back? Did you come now?) Nahi bahut der se hain (No I came from a long time.) *Acha tabhi thik hai. Lochan Dasa Thakura geet gaya hai 'Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā' Jo bhagwat ras me jamne ke liye visahy ras chodna padega. 'viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā mukhe bolo hari hari'. Bhagwan bhi bataya hai ek jagah (Okay it's alright then. Lochan Dasa Thakura has sung: Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā To merge in the mellows of the supreme, you need to leave the material things. Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā mukhe bolo hari hari The Lord has also said in one place:) Bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām Find out this verse. Jyada vishay, bhog aiswarya me jiska man laga hai wo samadhi me aa nahi sakta hai. (If one is too much involved in material sense gratification then he can't go into trance.) Find it out. "In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination of devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place." This qualification. Your Divine Grace, how long are you staying at Vṛndāvana? I'm going . . . oh, Vṛndāvana? Three weeks. When you are . . . Any time you are home. Any time which is convenient to Your Divine Grace. Shall I come over to Vṛndāvana on the 15th evening? Fifteenth evening, I'll come over to Vṛndāvana? Oh, yes. And then what is the program? Your Divine Grace is coming back to Delhi from Vṛndāvana after three weeks' stay? They have made program to go to Chandigarh. *Chandigarh. You can . . . (indistinct) . . . Aligarh. Your Divine Grace can go to Aligarh to Delhi. The route is almost the same distance from here to Vṛndāvana. And you can go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh. About five miles, eight miles difference. It won't cost you much mileage*-wise. Udhar . . .(indistinct) . . . ka koi jhanjhat hai? (Is there any complication about this? . . .) No. The road is okay. You said we should go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh? In my opinion you should. I heard that road is very bad. Five or six kilometers they have raised the road by about six, seven feet, and all this is all mud and muck, and the car skids. In my opinion, you go via Aligarh. Or we can come to Aligarh from Vṛndāvana. I'm suggesting because I don't want to . . . (indistinct) . . . go back to Vṛndāvana and then come . . . (indistinct) . . . (Gopāla Kṛṣṇa converses with Indians about which road to take) . . . (indistinct) . . . *Bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ . . . purport? Purport: " Samādhi means 'fixed mind.' The Vedic dictionary, the Nirukti, says, samyag ādhīyate 'sminn ātmatattva-yāthātmyam : 'When the mind is fixed for understanding the self, it is called samādhi .' Samādhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment, nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things. They are more or less condemned by the process of material energy." *Yehi agyan hai ki thodi der ke liye ye bhautik sukh me aaplog fas jate hain aur usise hamara agyan chaloo hota hai. Shastra adi paath karne se sab gyan milta hai vishesh karke Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Aap usko padh rahe hain ki nahin? (This is the ignorance that for a short period you get entangled in these material comforts and from that our ignorance begins. By reading the scriptures we get all knowledge, especially Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Are you reading it or not? ) *Prahlāda Mahārāja yahi bataye hain 'śoce tato vimukha*-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān' (SB 7.9.43) Hamare liye to koi dukh nahi hai, hum to kahin bhi baith jayenge aur apka naam, gun kirtan karenge. Baki hamara sochne ka jo cheez hai, ye moorkh log thode der ke bhautik sukh ke liye itna parishram karte hain, great arrangement. 'Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato' Sukh to sthayi nahi hai. Sukh to hai hi nahi, 10 sal, 20, sal, 50 sal, zyada se zyada 100 sal. 'Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato' bharam bolta hai na to God jaisa lagta hai, to ye vimudha jo hai, 'ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā' (Prahlāda Maharaj has said this śoce tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43) There is no sorrow for us, we will sit anywhere and start singing your name and glories. But the thing which we have to consider is : these rascals are working so hard day and night for a flickering moment of happiness. They are making great arrangements. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato Happiness is not permanent. There is no happiness, may be 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, maximum 100 years. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato So because of the illusion we feel ourselves as God, so this is ignorant ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā ) *Vimudha bataya ye log kya vastvik sukh hai jante nahi, jaisa ek balak hai, wo uska life ka jo purpose hai, education lena, age jake usko bahut kuch karna padega . . . to isi prakar hum log vimudh hai je jivan ka uddeshya kya hai, kis liye humko manushya jivan mila hai, kya chahiye, ye sab kuch vyavasta nahi karte, kewal acchi tarah se khayenge, achi tarah se soyenge, maza karenge, 'Māyā*-sukhāya', acchi tarah se ye sab bhog nahi kar sakega, usme bhi bahut zhanzhat hai. Thoda achi tarah se bhog karne ke liye jo vastu ki jarurat hai, sabko paisa to milta nahi, wo bhi bhagvan ki kripa se milta hai, nahi to sabhi bada aadmi ho jata tha usko paisa khub milta. Ek aadmi din bhar parishram karta hai usko khane ko do roti nahi milta hai. Roti sabhi ko milta hai, kutta ko bhi milta hai. Aur ek aadmi thoda hi parishram kiya aur bahut rupaya milta hai. Ye bhagvan dene se milta hai, ye nischit hai. Jisko bhagwan deta hai usko milta hai. Wo apna destiny lekar aata hai. Jabardasti humko zyada parishram karne se jyada mil jayega, ye bhul dharana hai (verse) so utna hi apko milega jitna apko hak hai, destiny. Lekin dukh, dukh ko koi bulata nahi tabhi dukh pahunch jata hai . . . Jisko jitna dukh milna hai wo milega, to sastra kehte hain jitna apko sukh milna ko hai wo milega, to uske liye prayas karna. Wo jitna tumko milna hai mil jayega thik time pe. Tum prayas karo kis tarah se bhagwan ko samajh sakte ho, uske liye prayas karo. (verse) Kyunki janm-janmantar gaya bhagvan ko samajha nahi, upar-niche bahut ghoome, kabhi swarglok me gaya, kabhi nark me gaya, sab doondh ke aya hai . . . ab jo manushya jivan mila hai ab bhagvan ke liye koshish karo, mil jayega, aur sukh-dukh ke liye tumhara jitna destiny hai wo mil jaygega. Adhik prayas karne ka koi jaroorat nahi. (Ignorant person doesn't know what is real happiness, just like a child, what is the purpose of his life? To get education, going forward he has to achieve a lot . . . similarly we are ignorant, what is the purpose of our life? Why have we got this human form of life? What do we want? We do not organize these matters, only eat nicely, have fun, sleep, " maya sukhaya " but he will not be able to enjoy these pleasures as well nicely, there are a lot of complications in this. To enjoy sense gratification we need resources, everyone doesn't get money, that also is received by the mercy of God, otherwise everyone would have become a rich man. One man works hard day and night and he doesn't get a square meal a day. Everybody gets a piece of bread, even a dog. On the other hand, another man puts just little effort but gets lots of money. He gets this only if God gives it, this is certain. Whoever the Lord gives, he receives it. He brings along his destiny. Forcibly if we work very hard then we will get more, that is a misconception (verse). So you will only get that much on which you have the rights, destiny. But sadness, nobody invites it but still it comes. How much one has to suffer, he will suffer. The scripture says, how much ever happiness you have to get you will get, no need to work very hard. The one which you are destined to receive, you will receive at the correct time. You should endeavor how to understand God. Because life after life has passed and we have not understood God, we have traveled in the lower planets and the upper planets, sometimes went to heavenly planets and sometimes to hellish planets, we searched everywhere and came back. Now that you have got the human form of life, try to reach for God and you will get Him. And for happiness and distress whatever is there in your destiny you will get, no need to put in an extra effort. (verse).) You have got that? *Na tat*-prayāsaḥ kartavyam . What is that? *Some mahā*-prasādam . For me? They are offering it to you. *Na tat*-prayāsaḥ kartavyam . (aside) He can go. You can go. You have . . . (indistinct) . . . now. Ye mahine ke aakhir me, is mahine ke aakhir me Septmeber. (At the end of this month, at the end of this month, September.) He . . . her son—he is the father and mother—he's an Indian, in Detroit, very good boy, getting very nice. He, living in the temple, husband and wife, child we have. Bachā, ek bachā? (Children, one child?) He's getting very happy, very nice boy. Hamara ye sanstha me Indian koi join karta hai to udhar se hi karta hai, idhar se nahi karta hai. (In this organization if some Indian joins, then it's only from that part, they don't join from this part.) Just like their son, he's educated very nicely. Educated boys are joining from foreign countries, and not from here. Iska kya karan hai boliye. (Tell me what should we do for this.) . . . (indistinct) . . . *Ye jo Gopāla Kṛṣṇa hain ye bhi udhar se hi join hue the, he was sales manager in Coca*-Cola. Usko 15000 dollar milta hai yearly, 15000 dollar kitna hota hai? 1200 mil sakta hai, 12000 milna koi sadharan baat nahi hai. Aisa aur ek beta hai, wo bhi engineer hai, Yashomatinandan, gujrati, uska maa-baap hai. To do-char jo Indians padhe-likhe hain wo udhar se hi join hote hain. (Gopāla Kṛṣṇa had also joined from there, he was sales manager in Coca-Cola. He gets 15,000 dollars annually. How much is 15,000 dollars. He can get 1,200, is it such a small thing to get 12,000.There is one more son like this,he is also an engineer, Yasomatinandana, Gujarati, he has parents. So 2 to 4 educated Indians have all joined from there.) . . . (indistinct) . . . you have got that book? Ah . . . Stillson Judah's? No. It's in Bombay. We may have a copy in Vṛndāvana also. One professor, Stillson Judah, he has written one book. After studying our movement five years he has written one Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. Counterculture. Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. To bahut scientific research hai . . .Wo opinion diya hai . . . (So a lot of scientific research is there . . . they have given the opinion . . .) Doesn't have a copy here. It's published by Princeton University Press. In their religion . . . in their set of volumes on different religions. . . . (indistinct) . . . prasādam . Aiiye, aiiye, aiiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa, bahut kripa hai, prasad do. (Please come. Hare Kṛṣṇa, we are fortunate, give them prasad .) (new guest arrives) Accha nahi hai tabiyat bahut hi kharab hai. (Health is not good, very poor condition.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . How are you, sir? Idhar aaye koi kaam tha? (You came here, any work?) You came here for some . . . Yes, then I thought I would go to your old place. The . . . (indistinct) . . . this was here . . . (indistinct) . . . the old place, I didn't get any response. There was nobody there now. But when you shifted from there? There is nobody there now. No. . . . (indistinct) And this place is better than that. Very much. Oh, yes. How long you will stay? I am going tomorrow, Vṛndāvana. . . . (indistinct) I'll be three weeks there. . . . (indistinct) Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Of course. *Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa*-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam . Ye to bhagvan aradya vastu hai, brajnandan Hari. (This is a worshipable God, Brajanandana Hari.) As He is worshipable, similarly, Vṛndāvana dhāma is also worshipable. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam ramya kācid upāsana vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā va kalpitā . Upāsana , vraja-vadhū , the vraja , damsels of vrajabhūmi , the gopīs, as they worship the Lord, there is no comparison to that process of worship. Vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā . Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvana . I think we are going there after Parliament session closes tomorrow . . . (indistinct Hindi) Where? Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana . . . (indistinct) . . . then I was told that Mathurā and . . . (indistinct) . . . full. They spend so much money for the roadways; still it is not good. Draining the different levels, question arises, the water, the excessive in quantity, and the natural drains are not efficient enough to take it out . . . (indistinct) . . . I was told that . . . There is no sufficient outlet. Yes. But some of those āśrama , Mathurā, it's very deep, that four feet water in the āśramas . Three, four feet water. Within the āśramas ? And temple. You haven't recives any message from Vṛndāvana? Our temple is all right. Raman Reti is not flooded where we are. It's almost up to Fogel Ashram in the back, Yamunā, but it has not come to our Raman Reti. And now you will remain here in India for some time? That I do not know. I, actually, now it is little troublesome for me to travel all the year. You are just gone from . . . (indistinct) . . . so when the guests arrive . . . Rest, if I rest then there may be . . . because I am dealing with all neophytes. If I don't keep them alive by personal presence . . . still, they are doing nice. I have appointed twenty secretaries all over the world. I am training them. They are managing. Managing nicely. I have been in New York and Los Angeles and Hawaii, all big, big centers. London, Paris. Oh, it's a very great. Your program for Kurukṣetra and etcetera and the . . . Program was that they promised to give me a land. Who? That Chief Minister. Have they done so? Not yet. I heard about two acres was available recently, except that it . . . (indistinct) . . . I wrote you that the manner in which approach was made upset those people. And the Minister, I later learned . . . (indistinct) *We are trying for another big scheme in Bengal. We have applied to the government to acquire land, 350 acres, a big planetarium. Planetarium. We have described the planetarium in our Fifth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . In that planetarium it is said that the moon is above the sun planet, by one million six hundred thousand miles. What does astronomy say? The modern astronomy. They say the moon planet is nearer to earth planet, and they have gone there. Have you given up any idea about Kurukṣetra? No, no, not . . . No, because if you have the idea, the land is the least part of it, because so much is to be done . . . (indistinct) . . . if the idea is that something should be done. I learned that gentleman, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . and he has said that he will do something. I was not there at the time of the . . . (indistinct) (aside) You bring one little plate prasādam from there, from that . . . And you will be in Vṛndāvana for some . . . Three weeks. After that you don't know. After that where you go, you don't know. Yes. Well, this is God's work, Lord Kṛṣṇa's work. I am trying . . . (indistinct) . . . to cooperate with you, because nobody can do. No, you have done tremendous work. No, but which is very little considering the situation, the condition, problem in the country. I am at a lower level than your level than your work . . . (indistinct) The one encouraging thing in this movement is that our books are being very much appreciated. In all universities, foreign and Indian, libraries, professors, learned scholars. Yes, they'll branch out and then . . . it's a great service. We are selling books to the extent of sixty thousand dollars daily. I see. That is our only hope, that we shall not be financially in difficulty. People are taking our books very nicely. People are accepting our literature. It is not that difficulties were not there also . . . (indistinct) . . . I don't have the support, but I feel . . . (indistinct) . . . find that several places the demand for this, for the acceptance also . . . (indistinct) . . . coming forward, but not in the manner in which I had wanted . . . (indistinct) . . . lakhs of people stand against the forces which want to . . . (indistinct) . . . religion and moral side. There should be a linking up of all those who want religion to remain and morality to also be there. Those forces have to be met by also organized force from the right kind of people, religious people . . . (indistinct) . . . I hope they are not coming in your way. No, no. I remember that you had written yourself that there is something we could do together. Possibly this question, building and all that, whenever it comes there. It is good to have that building and that land, but even before that, there is work to be done at the Kurukṣetra. *My point is that Kurukṣetra is the place where Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken. So if we take the words of Bhagavad-gita as it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, then people will be benefitted. That is basic, of course. The foundation. *But if we do not take the words of Bhagavad*-gītā , then moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). That I believe. (aside) Find out this verse. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo . That's true. I also believe that there must be a direct . . . No, why not direct? Putting in your interpretation, that is wrong. It should be direct. That doesn't mean only those people who have accepted this can come together. And why the others will not accept? No, we have made, you must have seen our literature, *Gītā* as a text, but still people may not judge . . . No, no, we should not depend on the people's acceptance only. We have to present *Gītā* as it is. Now everything is not accepted by everyone. Even if you make change, there is no guarantee that they will . . . No, no. No, no, I am not speaking to you. Anyone. I am not trying to make a show. I believe a direct interpretation is important thing more than the other kinds of ideas and conceptions. "Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demoniac and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities and their culture of knowledge are all defeated." Go on. Go on. I have given any purport? *Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. "There are many devotees who assume themselves to be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and devotional service but at heart do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, as the Absolute Truth. For them, the fruit of devotional service—going back to Godhead—will never be tasted. Similarly, those who are engaged in fruitive, pious activities and who are ultimately hoping to be liberated from this material entanglement will never be successful either, because they deride the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. In other words, persons who mock Kṛṣṇa are to be understood to be demoniac or atheistic. As described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā , such demoniac miscreants never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore their mental speculations to arrive at the Absolute Truth bring them to the false conclusion that the ordinary living entity and Kṛṣṇa are one and the same. With such a false conviction, they think that the body of any human being is now simply covered by material nature and that as soon as one is liberated from this material body there is no difference between God and himself. This attempt to become one with Kṛṣṇa will be baffled because of delusion. Such atheistic and demoniac cultivation of spiritual knowledge is always futile. That is the indication of this verse. For such persons, cultivation of the knowledge in the Vedic literature, like the Vedānta-sūtra and the Upaniṣads , is always baffled." *"It is a great offense, therefore, to consider Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, to be an ordinary man. Those who do so are certainly deluded, because they cannot understand the eternal form of Kṛṣṇa. In the Bṛhad*-vaiṣṇava mantra it is clearly stated that one who considers the body of Kṛṣṇa to be material should be driven out from all rituals and activities of the śruti. And if one by chance sees his face, he should at once take bath in the Ganges to rid himself of infection. People jeer at Kṛṣṇa because they are envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Their destiny is certainly to take birth after birth in the species of atheistic and demoniac life. Perpetually, their real knowledge will remain under delusion, and gradually they will regress to the darkest region of creation." (indistinct) . . . I was reading this yesterday, the Eleventh Chapter. Eleventh Chapter? Eleventh Chapter, yes. There are twelve, twelve chapters. There, Kṛṣṇa Bhagavān has a dialogue with Uddhava. Hmm? *He's referring to Ekādaśa*-skandha of the Bhāgavatam . Uddhava. And there I felt . . . I thought that maybe whenever we meet I'll bring up this question with you. 'Cause the way in which it has been translated in Hindi which I read it does create a little question as to what Bhagavān Himself said about the status of the soul, the individual soul, and relationship . . . (indistinct) . . . because although I think I should have got it, they don't give it to the Life Members . . . (indistinct) Yes, *Bhāgavatam* , we're up to the Seventh Canto now in the printing. So this canto has come. *Yes, the canto has come out. So Saptama*-skandha , pādyokta . We're up to that. Now, well then if it is, if the member is . . . (indistinct) . . . now in the Eleventh there is . . . Eleventh Canto, yes. Then you will remember the verse? No, no, number . . . (indistinct) . . . again and again I had gone to that, and as to that, ultimately there is no difference. As soon as this . . . (indistinct) . . . when it comes. I would like this because I belong to the sect of our country, middle sect, from Swami Narayana. He's based on Rāmānujācārya philosophy, which says that all the souls are there, they are the body of the creator Bhagavān, just as the human ātmā has this body. This means there is the difference also identity. Identity is one, and yet they have their own place. That have been the faith which I have been . . . (indistinct) . . . now in many places this sometimes this differentiation remains, sometimes there is things said which wipe it out. I thought you would be the best person to give me some guidance . . . *As you say that Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad*-gita , mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). We living entities, we are part and parcel of God. Aṁśa . Aṁśa . So any common man can understand what is the . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 1, 1976, Delhi *. . . required to kill somebody, he'll do that—if it is required for his sense gratification. There are many instances that a woman is addicted to another man, and she has killed her husband, killed her son. Why? Sense gratification. I have seen one woman, my Godbrother's wife, she killed her son for being implicated with another man. I have seen it. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma ( SB 5.5.4). Things which are not to be done, they do it. Why? For the matter of sense gratification. They do it. That's a fact. So therefore simply for sense gratification they are prepared to do anything. That means pāpa . It is the verdict of the court that when a man kills another man he becomes mad. Without becoming mad, a man cannot kill another man. So everything is being done which is not sanctioned because for sense gratification. The whole world business is sense gratification. And at the end, when he's little spiritually inclined, he wants to satisfy senses by thinking artificially that "I shall become God." That is the greatest sense gratification. Because remaining a small living entity I have been hampered in my sense gratification. Now let me become God so that there will be no restriction of my sense gratification. Bhagavān . . . (indistinct) . . . because he has failed to satisfy his senses remaining non*-Bhagavān, now he wants to become Bhagavān. Yogī , that is also another sense gratification, that if I show some magic, if I can create little gold like this, hundreds and thousands of men will be after me and I shall live very nicely, just gratify my senses. These things are going on practically. The man who is manufacturing gold, and so many rich people are coming to his disciples and he's begging for a motorcar. If he can create gold, why he cannot create a motorcar? This is going on. Wo English me bol raha tha. (He was talking in English.) (break) Kya apka praśna hai? Apka praśna kya hai? (Do you have any question? What is your question?) Baat ye hai guruji ki ek mene do teen saal pehle kisiko 5000 rupaya loan diya tha, aur usne kaha tha ki 4-5 din me vapas kar dega lekin abhi tak vapas nahi kiya. (The thing is Guruji, 2-3 years back I had given someone a loan of 5,000 rupees, and he had said that he would return it in 4-5 days but he hasn't returned it yet.) Kaun 5000 liya tha? (Who had taken 5,000 from you?) Mera ek dost hai uska printing press hai. (I have a friend who runs a printing press.) Kam kya karta hai? (What work does he do?) Printing ka kam karta hai wo. (He does the job of printing.) . . . (indistinct background conversation) . . . Us praśna ko hamare pas lane se kya faida? Nahi to . . . hum kya kare? (So what is the use of getting that question to us? What can we do?) Nahi humne bahut koshish ki, aap sahi tarika boliye kaise usko . . . (No I tried a lot, if you could tell me what is the right way to . . . ) Hum uska tarika batayen, ye koi praśna hai? . . . Ye sab chalta hai, "hum 5000 rupaya mangte hain, aap dila dijiye to aap bada saheb ho jayiye". Ab agar wo 5000 rupaya humko milta hi nahin, aap kuch mantra laga kar usko dila dijiye tab hum manenge apko bada saheb aur nahin to nahi . . . Sadhu ka ye kam hai ki jo deta nahi usko dila de, bada saheb, mantra padke. Ye koi praśna hai sadhu ke liye. Ye sab chal raha hai. (We should say the solution, is that a question? These things are going on "I am asking for 5,000 rupees, you help me get it then you will become a big Sir". Now if I don't get that 5,000 rupees, you please do some magic and get it for me, then I shall consider you a big man, otherwise not. This is the work of a sage, who hasn't got anything, to give him something . . . Big Sir . . ., by reading some mantras. Is this a question which should be asked to a Sage? All these things are going on.) (Devotees chanting 'Hari Hari') Ye Sadhu ke pas jata hai aur: Māhārāj hamara pet me dard hai, aur sadhu usko koi dawai dega aur bada saheb. (They go to the Sage and tell him: Māhārāj I have pain in the stomach, and the sage gives him some medicine, then he would become a 'Big Sir'.) *Ye adalat ka kam hai. Sadhu*-santon ke pas bhagvan ka poocho, bhagvan ke bhakti ka poocho, bhagvan ke kuch smabandh ki baat karo, ye sab maya ke bat nahi. (These works are meant for the court. When you come to a Sage you must enquire about God, about devotion to God, topics related to God, and not topics related to maya.) Nahi mujhe jab maya milegi me Kṛṣṇa ji ko daan kar dunga na (No when I get the money, I will donate it to Kṛṣṇa.) Kṛṣṇa ko wo daan nahi chahiye. Ap usko bhul jaiye. (Kṛṣṇa doesn't want that money. You forget about it.) Sab to wo deta hai, ap usko kya denge? (He provides for everything. What can we give to him?) Apko 5,000 rupaya dila den to ap Kṛṣṇa ko denge. Abhi apke pas do chaar paise jo hain wo dijiye. (If you get that 5,000 rupees you will donate it to Kṛṣṇa. But whatever little amount you have now, you donate that first.) Sirf yahi dukh hain mujhe aur sab . . . (This is the only sadness I have, remaining everything . . .) To usko dena hoga de diya, jab lena hai to kabhi mil jayega. (This was your time to give, so you gave. When it's your time to get, then you will get it.) . . . (indistinct conversation) . . . *Sadhu kisko bataya jata hai? Bhagvan kisko sadhu bataya hai? To 'api cet su*-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ' (BG 9.30) jo bhagvat bhajan karta hai, 'ananya bhak' se wo sadhu hai. Wo māhātamā bada durlabh hai jo ki Vāsudev bhagwan ko hi sab kuch manta hai . . . 'bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ' (BG 7.19) Ye sab kaun māhātamā hai, kaun sahdhu hai iske vishay me bhagvan khud bata diya hai. Wo 'bhajate mām ananya-bhāk' wo sadhu hai. Unke pas Bhagvat bhajan karne ke liye puch sakte hain, rupaya kaise milega uske liye to aur sab . . . ye sab ajkal yahi chalta hai. (break) Sadhu ke pas, kis tarah se tapasya karni padti hai . . . kaise Bhagwan ka sanidhya labh ho sakega usko puchna chahiye. (Who is called as a Sage? Who has God declared as a sage? So api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ (BG 9.30) one who sings the glories of the Lord without deviation "Ananya bhak" he is a sage. That being is very rare who considers only Lord Vasudeva to be everything . . . bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19) These things like: 'Who is a Saint', 'Who is a Sage', the Lord himself has explained about these things. That one who is engagegd in devotional service without any deviation "bhajate mām ananya-bhāk" is a Sage. You can ask him about how to sing glories of the Lord. For things related to how to get money and all there are other . . . these things are all going on today. (break) How to perform austerities, how to get the association of supreme Lord, these things should be asked to a Sage.) . . . Prabhuji ek baat hai, Bhagvan ki itni seva ki hai . . . aur main prarthana karta hoon ki mujhe aise ashirwad chahiye ki me bhagwan ko kabhi bhulun na aur jo kaam me karun unke liye karun. . . yehi mai aapse aashirvad mangta hoon. Aur kabhi gande kaam me mera dyan na jaye, sachai bolun. . . (. . . Prabhuji there is one thing, I have rendered so much service to the Lord. . . I worship God that I want this blessing: I should never forget God and whatever work I do, I should do it for him . . . also this is the blessing I seek from you. Also, my mind should never be engaged in any dirty works, I should always speak the truth . . .) Bhagvan apko aashirvad kare. (May the Lord bless you.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Devotees chanting 'Jay Prabhupāda')'kirtaniya sada Hari' 'satatam kirtayanto' Sab samay kirtan karo. Kam karo aur Hare Kṛṣṇa bolne me kya nuksan hai. (All the time sing the names of God. Do your work but what is the loss in saying Hare Kṛṣṇa.) . . . (indistinct) . . . Karo to sahi, shuru to karo. Bhagwan bole 'satatam kirtayanto' sab samay bhagwan ka kirtan karo aur sab samay nahi hota hai to jahan tak hota hai karo, lekin karo. (break) Kirtan karo baith ke. (Do it, start at least . The Lord said: 'satatam kirtayanto' all time sing the glories of the Lord. And if it's not possible to do all time, then do as much as you can, but start doing. (break) Sit down and do kirtana .) . . . (indistinct) . . . *Krodh, jaise Hanumān ji kiya tha. Jaise Hanuman ji wo Rāvan ka ghar jala diya. Bina krodh se koi kisika ghar jala sakta hai? To krodh ka aise vyavahar karo. To Rāvan ka ghar kyun jalaya? Ye bewakoof Sitā ji ko le aaya, badmash, uska ghar jala diya. Krodh . . . jo rakshas hai, bhagvan ka abhakt hai uske upar khub krodh karo. (Anger, like Hanumān ji had displayed? Like Hanumān ji had burnt down the house of Rāvana. Can anyone burn down a house without anger? So you should utilize anger in this way. So why did he burn down Rāvana's palace? This foolish rogue man kidnapped Sitā, so he burnt down his house. Whoever is demoniac, non*-devotee, you should be very angry on them.) Kabhi kabhi bahut jyada krodh ata hai. (I get very angry sometimes.) Bahut karo, jab ghar jala diya to baki kya reh hai . . . Abhi krodh kitna ho sakta hai? Utna krodh kahan ayega? Ap kisika ghar jala sakti ho? Hanumān ji ne kiya tha isliye Hanumān ji ka aj tak puja karte hain, kyunki krodh kiya tha. Bichare vendanta ko nahi padha tha, padhe to jane Krodh kiya lekin Rām ke liye, apne liye nahi kiya. Krodha ka vyavahr hai bhagwan ke liye. Jo Bhagvan ko maanta nahi aur bhakt ko takalif deta hai, uske upar khub krodh kijiye, ghar jala dijiye. Krodh ka bhi vyavahr hai, krodh hai to krodh dikhao kahan tak hai krodh. (Do more, When he burnt a house, what more is left . . . Now how much high can anger be? Where would you get that much anger? Can you burn down somebody's house? Hanumān ji did it that's why till today he is being worshipped, because he became angry. Poor guys, they dont read the scriptures, if they read they will get to know that he displayed anger but only for Rāma, not for himself. The use of anger is done for Lord's service. The one who does not believe in God, and gives trouble to devotees, you should be very angry with them, you should burn down their houses. There is proper use of anger as well. If you have anger then display that anger.) Krodh me to anisht bhi hota hai. (In anger, we perform forbidden things sometimes.) *Anisht hoye chod tum bhagvan ke liye karo. Hum bolta hai agar tumhare pas krodh hai to usko . . . ye krodh bhagvan ke liye vyavahar karo. Jaise Hanumān ji kiya tha. Hai to Māhājan hai 'Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ' (CC Madhya 17.186) Bade*-bade Māhājan bhakt log jaise kaam kiya hai . . . wo Hanumān ji ke pas krodh tha tabhi to wo kiya, to apke pas krodh hai ap bhi wese kijiye. Is prakar apka krodh jab vyavahar hojayega fir apko shanti milegi. (Leave about the forbidden things, you did it for the Lord. I am saying if you have anger . . . use that anger for the service of Lord. Just like Hanumān did it. He is a self-realized predecessor Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) Whatever is done by big big self realized predecessors, devotees . . . Hanumān ji had anger that's why he did it, so if you have anger you also utilize in the same way. In this way when you utilize your anger then you will find peace.) . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda:' Kya puch raha hai? ( What is he asking?) Kehta hai Bhagvan ka naam kis tarah liya jata hai mujhe batao. (He wants to know how to chant the name of the Lord.) *Kis tarah se leta hai dekhta nahi hai ap, phir kaise batayega apka jab ankh nahi hai. Ye sab kaise leta hai, din bhar kirtan karta hai. Ye koi mushkil hai kya? Dekho wo jaise karta hai waise karo, usme kya hai seekhna? Ye to baccha bhi kar lega. Us din baccha kirtan kiya na, usme seekhne ka kya hai? Jo dekhe usiko karo. Aaiye, han, aiiye. Dekh ke sikhna hota hai, jaise kaunsa bhi sevak hai . . . Hanumān ji se jake seekho . . . Jo dekh ke sikhta hai wo bada chalak hai. Ek aadmi ko zabardasti aise karo*-waise karo bolne se sikhta hai to usko der lagta hai aur jo dekh ke sikhta hai jaldi seekh jata hai, wo bada chatur hai. Adarsh . . . adarsh sab cheez ka hai, wo adarsh hum le aaye, yehi humlog ka pantha hai 'Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ' (CC Madhya 17.186). Bade-bade bhakt log jaise rasta dikhaye hain usko anusaran karo sab seekh jaoge. Tarko ’pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā (CC Madhya 17.186) Ye tark karke seekhna, wo tark karenge, hum unse jyada tark karenge, koi aur humse zyada tark karega, usse koi labh nahi hai. Aur yadi ved vedanta padhenge to hum dekhenge ved me kuch aur likha hai aur doosre ved me aur kuch likha hai aur darshnik vichar karenge 'Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam'(CC Madhya 17.186) aur ye muni ko daba nahi sakta hai to uska jo philosophy hai wo bhi thik nahi hai aise bata denge. (Aren't you seeing how they are chanting, then how can I explain if you don't have the eyes. How do they chant, they chant the whole day. Is it difficult? See how they are doing, you do like them, what is there to learn in this? Even a child can do this. That day the children chanted, what is there to learn? Whatever you have seen, you should do that. Come, please come. You must see by seeing, just as we have the devotees, go and learn from Hanumān ji . . . one who learns by seeing is very clever. If one forcibly keeps telling you to do like this, like that, then it takes time to learn but one who sees and learns, he learns quickly, he is very intelligent. Everything has got certain principles that we have brought. This is our belief system. Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) Whatever path the great devotees have shown ,just follow it and you will learn everything. Tarko ’pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā (CC Madhya 17.186)) Learning by giving arguments, he will give some argument, we will then try to add some more argument, and somebody else will give more argument than us, there is no benefit from these arguments. And if we study the vedanta then we know something else is written in the 'vedas', and in some other 'veda' there is some other thing which is written then we try to think philosophically. Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (CC Madhya 17.186) and if they can't suppress the saint, then whatever philosophy he has given, they just mark it as incorrect. *'Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ'(CC Madhya 17.186) isiliye jo dharma vastu hai uska tattva bada gambhir hai. To kis tarah se sikha jaye? 'Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ'(CC Madhya 17.186) Bade*-bade Māhājan jis tarah se rasta dikhaye hain usko follow karo. Hamare vedic niyam se sab māhān acharya hain, jaise aaj kal pehle Sri sampradaya, Rudra sampradaya, Brahma sampradaya, Kumar sampradaya, to shastra me sab bataya hai kaun-kaun mahajan hain: 'Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ prahlādo janako bhīṣmo balir vaiyāsakir vayam (ŚB 6.3.20) ye sab Māhājan hain. Naradji hain, Brahmaji hain, Mahadev Shivji hain, aur Kapil hain, Manu hain, Prahlād maharaj hain, Janak māhārāj hain, Bhishmadev hain, dwadash māhājan shastra me bataya gaya hai, wo log jaise jaise kaam kiya hai us tarah se hum log anusaran karen aur unko jo adarsh hai usko follow karen. ( Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ (CC Madhya 17.186) Therefore the matters related to dharma is very deep. So how should we learn it? Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) We should follow the path shown by the great self realized personalities. In our Vedic culture we have very great teachers as nowadays the Sri sampradaya, Rudra sampradaya, Brahma sampradaya, Kumar sampradaya. So all this is mentioned in the scriptures, who are the great personalities, Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ prahlādo janako bhīṣmo balir vaiyāsakir vayam (ŚB 6.3.20) these are the great personalities. We have Narad ji, Brahma ji, Mahadev Shiv ji, Kapila muni, Manu, Prahlād Māhārāj, Janak Māhārāj, Bhismadeva, these 12 great personalities are mentioned in the scriptures. We should follow the work they have done and follow their ideals.) Thank you. *. . .(indistinct) . . . Kalyug me kirtan se uddhar ho sakta hai. Bhagwan Kṛṣṇa Gita me kehte hain ki sthita*-pragya ke liye dhyan yoga. . . (. . . In Kali yuga by chanting the Lord's name one can be elevated. Lord Kṛṣṇa has said in the Gitā that for a person to be equipoised . . .) *Wo sthita*-pragya ho jayega Rām-naam karo. Bhagvan ka naam karo, bhagvan ka smaran karo. Rām ka naam liya to Rām ka to dhyan ho jayega. Dhanurdhari Rām, Sitāji baithe hain, Hanumān ji baithe hain, Lakshman ji hain, ye sab dhyan hogaya. Kya mushkil hai. Kisi ka naam lene se uska sab kaam dhyan me aata hai ki nahin, usi prakar aap yadi Rām ka naam lenge to sath sath Rām ka dhyan bhi ho jayega (verse). Yadi aap dhyanavastit hokar ke bhagvan ko dhyan karenge to fir yogi hogaye. Aur pehle se thik thak kar liya ki Rām ka haat nahi hai, pair nahi hai, naak nahi hai, aankh nahi hai, to kis par dhyan karnege. To keval klesh hoga. (verse) Bhgavan ka dhyan kijiye, Bhagvan ka naam lijiye, jo hogaya sawar lijiye. Shastra me bataya hai (verse). Dhyan ka, meditation ka arth kya hota hai. Jo man ko sab samay bhagvan ke charan me laga deta hai ye samadhi hai. (Chant the names of the Lord and you will become equipoised. Take the names of the Lord, remember Him. If you chant the names of Lord Rāma then automatically meditation happens on Lord Lord Rāma. Lord Rāma with bow and arrow, Sitā seated next to Him, Hanumān ji is also sitting and Lakshman is there, all this is meditation. What is the difficulty? When you take a person's name, all his activities will come to your mind or not. Similarly if you take Lord Rāma's name then automatically you will meditate on the Lord. (verse). If you meditate with single minded devotion towards to Lord then you will become a yogi. And beforehand if you fix that Lord Rāma does not have hands, does not have legs, does not either eyes or ears then what will you meditate on. Then there will be only tribulation. (verse). Meditate on the Lord, take the names of the Lord, fix everything. In the scriptures it is said (verse). What is the meaning of meditation? One who focuses his mind all the time on the lotus feet of the Lord, that is trance.) *Bhagvan ki siddhi aur moksh prapt karne ke raste ek hi hai ya alag*-alag? (Are the ways of obtaining mystic powers and liberation one and the same?) Moksh ka arth aap kya samjhte hain? (What do you understand the meaning of liberation?) Shakti, jaise shakt log hain shakti ko prapt karte hain. (Power, like how we have the 'shakta's' who aquire the power.) *Shakti me moksh nahi hai. Shakti, ye material power . . . (indistinct) . . . usme moksh nahi hai. Material power usko shakti 'dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpa*-pati-bhājaṁ dehi' lo usko aur phas jao. Ye sab duniya me jo power chahte hain wo phas jate hain ki nahin, ye aapko maloom hai ki nahin. To duniya ka shakti labh hone se, aap phas jaiyega yahi labhi hoga. Wo to moksh nahi hai, wo to phasne wala baat hai. Shakti ye nimn star ka vyajan hai, ye duniya ka power chahte hain, jo shakti upasak hai. Ye shakti analysis karke dekhte hai aag me shakti jyada hai to agni upasak ho jate hain. Aur fir jo aag pe analysis karke dekhta hai, jo aag jo aata hai wo surya ke agni se aata hai, to surya ka upasak hai. Ye shakto. Isi tarah shakt aur kya nam hai danapatta, aur souryo . . . ye sab panch upasana hai . . . (indistinct) . . . It is gradual state. To asal me vishnu upasana hi mukhya hai. (verse) to jitna upasana hai wo sab karte-karte jab usko theek chiz maloom hoga 'ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param' (Padma Purāṇa). To sadharan vyakti nahi jante hain (verse) to sartha gatim kya hai jante nahi he isliye kabhi shakti me phas jate hain, kabhi agni me fas jate hain, pancha-upasak. Aur swayam Vishnu aa karke bata rahe hain tum ye sab chodo 'sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ' (BG 16.66) usme tumhara sab labh hai. (verse) Aur jisko Bhagwan ka krpa labh ho gaya wo aur kisika kripa nahi chahte hain. (There is no lieration in power. 'Shakti', this is material power . . . there is no liberation in that. Acquiring material power 'dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpa-pati-bhājaṁ dehi' and getting more entangled. All the people in the world who want power, don't they get trapped, do you know this or not? So if you get the material power, you will get entangled more and that's the only benefit. That is not liberation, that is entanglement. Power is a low form of energy, whoever are the worshippers of power, they want power of this world. The analyze this power and see, there is power in the fire, so they become worshippers of fire. Now they analyze the fire and they find out this fire actually comes from Sun's heat , then they become worshippers of the Sun. Like this there are 'Shakta's' , 'Shouryo' . . . there are five types of worshippers . . . (indistinct) . . . It is gradual state. So in reality, worship of Lord Vishnu is the most important. So out of all the different kinds of worship, after doing everything when he realizes the correct thing 'ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param' (Padma Purāṇa). So normal people do not know this, and they sometimes get stuck in power, or fire . . . they get stuck in the worship of these five types. And Lord Vishnu himself comes and tells, you leave all this sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (BG 16.66, your benefit is in that.) And whoever has received the blessings of the lord, they don't need blessings from anyone else. . . . (indistinct) . . . Ishwar darshan, bhagvan darshan kya hai? (What does the darshan of God mean?) Pehle to aapko ye nischit karna chahiye ki kiska darshan chahte hain. Abhi to bataya na shakti, daanpatra, souryo anek prakar upasana hai. Aapko kya chahiye tab bataya jayega kis tarah se upasana karne se labh milega. (First you must decide whose darshan you want to have. Just now I mentioned 'Shakta' , 'Shouryo', there are different kinds of worship. Which one you want, then we can say how to perform the worship to get the benefit.) First of all you must fix up what you want. What is realization? Realization—everything is realization. If you can do business well, that is also realization. Realization of God. Then you, if you want . . . Realization of God. Realization of God, To wo to Bhagwan bata rahe hain (So Lord is saying), bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). So "If you want to know Me, then bhaktyā , bhakti ." Ye to bataye nahi gyan se, karma se, yog se humko mil sakte hain, nahi. (It is not said that you will obtain God by knowledge, by duty, by yoga , no.) Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ . If you want to know God really, then you have to take this path, bhakti . If you want something else, that is a different thing. *Pehle to aapko fix*-up hona chahiye ki aapko chahiye kya. (First you have to decide what it is that you want.) Aur Prabhupāda, ye sākār aur nirākār me kaafi matbhed chalta hai. Sākār samne pratyaksh murti rakne se, hriday me dhyan ekatrit karke aur kendrit karke hum puja kar sakte hain, bhakti kar sakte hain, lekin nirākār me dhyan nahi jamta hai. To apka iske bare me kya vichar hai aur . . . (And Prabhupāda, there is a lot of difference of opinion in the form and formless formless feature of the Lord. In the form, we can keep the Deity in front of us, meditate in our mind and worship the Deity and do devotion but in formless we cannot meditate. So what is your view on this and . . .) Ye nirākār ka arth pehle samajhiye. Nirākār aakār ko nakharch kar dena, Nirākār - aakar hai baki usko nakharch karke . . . (indistinct) . . . To bhagvan jo hai wo dekhta hai baki uska aankh nahi hai. Aise ye sab vichar, to ab sochna chahihye ki aankh nahi hai to dekhta kaise hai, ye vichar karna hai (verse). Ye achaksur jo hai nirākār hai aur pashyati jo hai wo aakār. (Try to understand the meaning of the word formless first. Formless means to break the form, form is there but . . . (indistinct) . . . We say the Lord is seeing everything but he doesn't have eyes. These thoughts are going on, now one should contemplate if there are no eyes then how is he seeing, you should think about this. (verse) This 'achaksur' is formless and 'pashyati' is form.) *Isliye aapko nischay karna chahiye ki bhagvan dekhta hai, baki wo unka hamara jaisa aankh nahi hai, ye nirākār hai. Hum jaise dekh rahe hain, ye kamre ke bhitar sab dekh rahe hain aur diwar ke udhar kya hai dekh nahi sakte. Aur jo bhagvan hai wo sab dekhta hai (verse) sab jagah unka haat hai , pair hai. Isliye vichar karna chahiye ki bhagvan ka haat, pair sabhi hai baki hamare jaise nahin hai. Ye vichar karna chahiye. Jo ye hamara jaise hai hi nahi wo nirākār hai aur unka jo haat*-pair hai wo aakār. Isliye shastra me bataya hai 'ISVARA PARAMA KRISHNA SACHIDANANDA VIGRAHA ANADIR AADIR GOVINDA SARVA KARANA KARANAM'. Unka jo vigrah hai, aakār hai wo sacidanand hai, sac-cit-anand. To jahan sacidanand kaha gaya hai ye jo sharir hai ye nirākār hai, kyunki ye jo sharir hai ye sat nahi hai, asat, (verse). Ye sharir to naash ho jayega. Bhagvan ka sharir hai baki maas-mans sharir nahi hai. Isliye bhagvan kehte hain mai jab aata hoon to ye moorkh log samjhte hai ki sadharan manushya jaisa hai 'avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā' mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam' (BG 9.11). (Therefore first you should decide that God can see, but he does not have eyes like us, this is formless. Like how we are able to see what is inside this room but what is there behind the wall we can't see. But the Lord can see everything, (verse). He has his hands and legs everywhere. So we must think that His hands and legs are there but not like ours. So this must be considered. So the one which is not like us, is formless and the hands and legs which the Lord has is the form. Hence it is said in the scriptures that ISVARA PARAMA KRISHNA SACHIDANANDA VIGRAHA ANADIR AADIR GOVINDA SARVA KARANA KARANAM Lord's deity, the form , is sac-cit-ananda , full of eternity, knowledge and bliss. So where it is said eternity, knowledge and bliss, but this body of ours is not eternal, it is temporary (verse) This body will perish. God's form is there but not made of flesh and bones. So God says, when I descend these rascals think that I am an ordinary person like them Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā' mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11)) *Kyunki ye do haat*-payr leke main aaya hoon to moorkh log samjhte hai ki hamara jaise koi vyakti hai baki wo sachidananda vigrah hai. 'sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā' (BG 4.6) ye sab vachan hai Bhagavad-Gita me. Bhagvan ka jo sharir hai wo hamara jaisa sharir nahi hai 'janma karma ca me divyam' (BG 4.9). To bhagvan ka sharir kya hai usko agar samajh jaye to wo . . . baki wo samajhta nahi hai, wo samajhta hai hamara jaisa vyakti hai aur unko ye mayavadi log kehte hai jab bhagvan aate hai to maya ka sharir dharan karke aate hain. To nirākār ka artha hota hai bhagvan ka bhautik sharir nahi hai. Bhagvan ka sharir hai sac-cit-anand vigraha. Agar sacidanand vigraha nahi hota to 7 varsh ke umar me koi pahad utha sakta hai, boliye. (Just because I have appeared with 2 hands and legs, these rascals think that He is a person like us, but he is sac-cit-ananda vigraha sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6). All these statements are given in the Bhagavad-gita . The form of God is not like ours. janma karma ca me divyam (BG 4.9) So if one understands the form of God then . . . but he does not understand and thinks the Lord is like one of us, and to this the impersonalists say that whenever God appears He comes with this maya form. So the meaning of formless is that God does not have a material form like us. God's form is full of eternity, knowledge and bliss. If His form was not eternal, full of knowledge and bliss then how could a 7 year old lift such a big mountain on a little finger, tell me.) Mera matlab ye tha prabhuji ki jab hum puja karte hain baithte hain agar samne murti hoti hai Bhagwan ki sākār murti ho ya chitra ho, to us par dhyan jaldi aakarshit hota hai, kendrit hota hai. Lekin agar hum bina murti ke dhyan karne baithe nirākār ka, to wo dhyan kendrit ho nahi pata hai. To kya koi jariya hai sākār ke dwara nirākār pahuchne ka? (I meant to say this Prabhuji that if we sit in front of the Deity or a photo of God to worship Him, then our mind gets drawn to the Deity very quickly. But if we sit meditating on the formless, then it's very difficult to focus and meditate. So is there any way to achieve the formless through the form?) *Nirākār kyun pahunchega, nirākār pahuchna nahi hai. Wo aap jante nahi je bhagvan ka aakār kya hai. Wo agyan ko door kijiye. Bhagvan to nirākār hai hi nahi, sachidanand vigraha. Vigraha ka arth hota hai murti. To fir bhagvan ke murti ko aap nirakar karne kyun chahte hain. Aur jo nirākār karne ko chahte hai usko 'kleśo ’dhika*-taras teṣām' (BG 12.5) usko adhik klesh hota hai, aur kuch nahi milta hai. (Why would he reach the formless, he doesn not have to reach the formless. You don't know that the Lord has a form. Remove this ignorance first. God is not formless, He is sac-cid-ananda . The meaning of 'Vigraha' is Deity. Why do you want to make God's Deity formless? And one who wants to make Him formless, he suffers a lot, kleśo ’dhika-taras teṣām (BG 12.5) he does not get anything.) Find out this verse. Aisa shastron me bataya gaya hai kali kaal me . . .(indistinct) . . . (It is mentioned in the scriptures that in this 'Kali yuga' . . .) (break) Pehle samjhiye Bhagvan nirākār nahi hai. Bhagvan ka aakār hai baki . . . (First of all understand that God is not formless. God has a form . . .) Somebody . . . why don't you send? What they are doing, all these rascals, that they cannot read? Someone should come in? Yes. But they do not know that somebody should remain there. Why they are there? What they are doing there? Harikeśa is typing. Pradyumna is reading Sanskrit books. *Just see. Send Pradyumna immediately. Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām avyaktasakta*-cetasam. Kleśa . Beginning with kleśa . (devotees tries to find verse) You could not? Kleśa . K-l-e-s . Why don't you come here? And who will find out? Come here. Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām ? *Why do you say that you do not find? Find out. They are not accustomed. Kleśo'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta*-cetasām (BG 12.5). Ye bhagvan swayam bata diya, jo nirākār bhajan karne wala hai uska kewal klesh adhik hota hai. To apko klesh hua to wo to hoga hi. Ye to shastra me bata diya. Apko sukh kaise hoga. Jab shastra batata hai adhik klesha, jisko adhik klesh usko sukh kaise hoga. (The Lord himself has already said, one who worships the formless, for him only tribulation increases. So if you are having to suffer, then it was bound to happen. This is already told in the scriptures. How will you feel happiness? When the scripture says too much suffering, then how can one who is suffering get happiness.) (Pradyumna enters) Read it. Ah. Avyaktā hi gatir duḥkham. Avyakta chintan karne kewal dukh labh hota hai aur kuch labh nahi Read it. (If you meditate on the unmanifested form then you get only sadness, nothing else.) "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied." Yes. Wo rasta ko pakadne se apko klesh adhik hoga, Bhagvan khud bata rahe hain, to apko sukh kaise milega. (The Lord himself says, if you take that path then you have to suffer a lot. So how will you get happiness? You are expecting happiness by thinking of impersonal form of the Lord. That is not possible. You simply get troubles, that's all. Ye to aap buddhiman hain, bhagyavan hain, jiska apko anubhav hua hai. Aur jo moorkh hota hai usko klesh bhi hota hai aur wohi rasta me jata hai. Wo janta hai usme klesh hota hai phir usi me jata hai. Aisa moorkh hota hai. Apko to bhagvan kripa kiya. Koi chahte hain ki khushi se hum klesh uttaye, wo moorkh jati hai. Ye buddhiman klesh ke rasta me kyun jaye. Isme anand hota hai idhar Bhagvan ka murti hai, dekho kitna sundar sajaya hai, nach rahe hain, gaa rahe hain, isme anand hai. Nirākār kuch nahi hai. (You are intelligent, and fortunate that you are experiencing this. And one who is foolish suffers and still continues on the same path. He knows that the path is full of suffering but still goes on that path. Such foolishness. God has showered His mercy on you. No one wants to take suffering happily, such people are rascals. Why should the intelligent person go on the path of suffering? Is there happiness? Here we have God's Deity, see how nicely it is decorated, they are dancing, they are singing - this is happiness, bliss. There is no formlessness.) What is the purport? *"The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jñāna*-yogis , and persons who are in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord, are called bhakti-yogis . Now here the difference between jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed." *Kṛṣṇa personally says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). To aap agyan panth ka kyun lijiye. Yadi aap bhagvan ko janane ko chahte hain, bhagvan bata rahe hain 'bhaktya mam abhijanati' to aap agyan panth kyun lenge. Fir apko klesh hoga (verse) To jo . . . Bhagvan sab bata diya hai, do rasta hai (verse) jo abhakton me aasakt hain usko adhik klesh hota hai. (Why do you want to take the ignorant path? If you want to know God, then God himself is saying " bhaktya mam abhijanati " then why will you take the path of ignorance? Then you will have suffering (verse). So, the Lord has already mentioned, there are 2 ways (verse), the one who is attached to non*-devotees gets more suffering.) So If you like to tolerate adhik-kleśa , that is your choice. Otherwise, Bhagavān, sac-cid-ānanda . . . Srivigraha ka aaradhan kijiye, usko sajaiye, sabko khane ko dijiye, prasad paiye, kirtan kijiye, dance kijiye, dekhiye anand milega. To anand ka path chod karke aagar klesh ka path lijiyega to ye aapke kushi ke baat hai. (Worship the Deity, decorate it, Offer food to the deities , feed prasadam to everyone, you also honor prasadam , perform congregational chanting, dancing and you will get bliss. So if you discard the path of bliss and take the path of suffering, it is your choice.) You can accept any way. That is your choice. *Ye sab shastra me hai. (All this is given in the scriptures.) Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa vigraha. Sac-cid-ānanda vigraha (BS 5.1). *Nirākār kyon? Artificially wo vigraha bhagvan ko nirākār karne ko kyun chahte hain. Isme apko kya labh hoga. Isko jawab dijiye. Aap bahut accha sākār se nirākār jayenge. Jab bhagvan ka sacidananda vigraha mauzood hai aap wahan se phir, nirākār roop bhi unka hai, sabhi to wohi hai 'brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate' (SB 1.2.11). To bhagvan aakhir roop hai. To bhagvan ka roop chod karke . . . jaise Suryadev hai. Wo suryadev suryalok me hai aur unka sab chata . . . to Suryadev ka sharir ka prakash se ye sab prakash hai, to udhar se idhar aane ka jaroorat kya hai, idhar se udhar jaiye. Surya ka jo prakash hai, roudra dhoop hai, dhoop se aahiste*-aashiste suryalok me jaiye. Suryalok me jake suryadev ka darshan kariye, ye paddhati hai. Aap suryalok me gaya, suryadev ka darshan kiya, chalo fir dhoop me chalo, ye kaun sa vichar hai, boliye. Idhar se udhar jayenge na udhar se idhar aayenge. Jisko bhakti hai usko gyan yog hai. Jisko bhakti hai wo bina gyan bhakt kaise hoga. (Why formless? Why do they want to artificially make the Deity of God formless? What benefit do you get from it? Answer this. You will go very nicely from form to formless. When God's form of eternity, bliss and knowledge is there, He is also formless, He is everything. brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). So ultimately God has form. Then why do you forget His form? Like how we have Sun God. The Sun God is in the sun planet and all his rays, the sunshine from the sun's body illuminates everything. Then what is the need to come from there to here, instead go from here to there. The light of the sun, the heat - from the sunshine, he gradually enters into the sun planet. Enter into the sun's planet and have darshan of Sun God, this is the process. And he goes to the Sun planet, gets darshan of the Sun God and then again comes out in the sun, what's these kind of thoughts called, tell me. Will you go from here to there or come from there to here . . . one who has devotion, has got knowledge. One who has devotion, how will he become devotee without knowledge?) *Jab tak purna gyan usko nahi hota ki bhagvan ye hai 'bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ' (BG 7.19) jab tak apko purna gyan nahi hoga to bhagvan ko kaise samjhenge. Bhagvan ko samajhna kya sadharan baat hai 'manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ' (BG 7.3). To bhagvan ko samajhna aisa maamuli baat hai kya. Hazaron-karodo aadmi siddhi labh karne ke liye prayatna karte hain aur jo siddhi labh kiye hue hain usme abhi tak koi bhagvan ko janta nahi. Gyan purna ho jayega to bhagvan ko samajh jayenge. Jab bhagvan ko jante nahin, uske gyan ka kya mulya hai. Vo to agyan hai 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.15). Ved-vedanta ko padh kar bhi yadi bhagvan ko nahi samjha, to phir apke gyan ka kya fayda hua. (Until he has complete knowledge, that God is this: Unless you have complete knowledge, how will you understand God? Is it an ordinary thing to understand God? So is it such a simple thing to understand God? Thousands and crores of people are trying to obtain mystic powers and out of those who have got these powers, no one has understood God yet. When the knowledge is complete, then you will understand God. When you don't know God, what is the value of your knowledge? That is ignorance. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo (BG 15.15) Even after reading so many scriptures - the vedas , the vedanta —if one has not understood God, then what is the use of such knowledge?) . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhakti yog ke liye to prem ki jarurat hai. (To perform bhakti yog, we need love.) Sastra vachan dekhiye, ki jiska gyan nahi hai wo kya bhagwan ko samjhega. To isliye jo bhagwan ko samjha hai usko gyan jarur hai. Aur jo bhagwan ko samjha nahi uska gyan ka kya kimat. 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.14) Ved ka artha hota hai gyan to sab ved ka uddesya kya hai? Ki Bhagwan ko samarpan karna. Aur yadi wahan tak ap pahunche nahi Bhagwan kya chiz he nahi samjhte hain, to apko gyani kehne ka kya matlab hai, wo to agyani hai. Aisa to gyan, jo mistri hai usko bhi kuch gyan hai. Thoda bahut gyan sabhi ka hota hai. Gyan sabhi ko hota hai, bacha ko bhi hota hai. Jiv matr ko kuch na kuch gyan hota hai. Kuch Kuch gyan ka baat nahi he, purna gyan. Jo purna gyan hai wo Bhagwan ko samjehnge. Uska naam purna gyan. (See the statements of the scriptures, the one who doesn't have the knowledge, what will he understand God. So the one who has understood God, he definitely has knowledge. And the one who did not understand God, what is the value of his knowledge. 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.14) The meaning of 'ved' is knowledge, so what is the purpose of all the scriptures? To surrender to the supreme Lord. And if you haven't reached there, and did not understand what is God then what is the meaning of calling you a 'Gyani', he is called as ignorant. Even a craftsman has some knowledge. Little bit knowledge is there with everyone. Even a child has some knowledge. Every being has some or the other knowledge. But we are not talking about little knowledge . . . complete knowledge. One who has complete knowledge can understand the Lord. That's known as complete knowledge. ) Prabhuji ahankār ko kis tarah mitaya jaye? (Prabhuji how to get rid of ego?) *To ahankār . . . jab tak ap samjhke baithe ho ki hum bada gyani hai to ahankār kaise jayega? So pehle apne ko samjhna hai maha*-murkha hai tab apko jayega. Jab tak ap ye nahi samjhenge ki hum maha-murkh hai tab tak ap agyani rahenge. (So, ego . . . till the point you believe I am very knowledgeable then how will ego go? So first you must consider yourself as a great fool, then ego will disappear. Till the time you don't consider yourself as a great fool, you will stay ignorant.) . . . (indistinct conversation) . . . Hum kal bhi aye the apke darshan ke liye magar time hogaya tha. Mummy aur papa bhi . . . (We came yesterday as well to see you, but it was late. Mom and dad also . . .) Acha. Abhi sab aye hain? (Okay. Everyone has come today?) Hum log prabhuji shayad is mahine me ja rahe hain . . . (inidistinct) . . . (We are planning to go this month Prabhuji . . .) Jaiye. Abhi to hum logon ko bhari palace he . . . Wo makan banane me , 50 varsha pehle 6 million dollar kharcha hua tha. Paris me hai bahut bada. (Please go. Now we have a big palace . . . It cost 6 million dollar to build that place 50 years ago. There's a big one in Paris.) Guruji ek baat hai, kehte hain kuch log ki tum puja karte ho path karte ho, ek ghanta do ghanta karte ho lekin agar tumhara dhyan nahi laga to vyarth hai. To pura dhyan nahi lagta to hume nahi karna chahiye? Jaise hum kar rahe hain kuch adha ghanta, ek ghanta . . . dusre log kehte hain tum ek ghanta baithi ho tumne puja kiya, to tumhara ek ghanta dhyan laga? Yadi nahi laga to tum do minute kyun nahi karte ho, to fir kya karna chahiye? Agar man lijiye hamara puri tarah dhyan nahi laga to kya puja nahi karni chahiye? (Guruji there is 1 thing, some people say you worship for half and hour or 1 hour but if your mind is not fixed then it's all waste. So if we are not able to concentrate fully then what should we do? Like we sit for half an hour or 1 hour . . . and other people say, you sat for 1 hour and you did worship, so were you able to concentrate for that 1 hour? If not, then why don't you sit just for 2 mins, so what should be done in that case? So suppose we don't have any concentration, what should be done in that case?) *Iska vichar bahut bhari hai. Ap Bhagavad*-gītā padhiye. Unme sab baat bataya gaya hai. Kuch log kehte hai, aise bahut se log hain wo sab kehne se kya labh. (This idea is very deep. You read Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is mentioned there. Some people say, like this many people keep saying what's the use of that.) . . . (indistinct) . . . Vishay to apko chahiye. Mind khali nahi reh sakta hai. Ek chiz ko chodiye to aur ek chiz ye me hoga. To Kṛṣṇa ko lijiye to nirvisay hoga. Aur Kṛṣṇa ko nahi lijiyega to visay me rahega. Bhakti yog ka artha hota hai vairagya yog. Aiye, ap piche kyun hai? Abhi aye kya? (You need some topic. Mind can't remain ideal. If you leave one topic, it will go to other. So take your mind to Kṛṣṇa and then it will become out of topics. And if you don't take to Kṛṣṇa then you will always still in the thoughts. The meaning of Bhakti yog is yog of detachment. Come, why are you sitting back? Did you come now?) Nahi bahut der se hain (No I came from a long time.) *Acha tabhi thik hai. Lochan Dasa Thakura geet gaya hai 'Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā' Jo bhagwat ras me jamne ke liye visahy ras chodna padega. 'viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā mukhe bolo hari hari'. Bhagwan bhi bataya hai ek jagah (Okay it's alright then. Lochan Dasa Thakura has sung: Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā To merge in the mellows of the supreme, you need to leave the material things. Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā mukhe bolo hari hari The Lord has also said in one place:) Bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām Find out this verse. Jyada vishay, bhog aiswarya me jiska man laga hai wo samadhi me aa nahi sakta hai. (If one is too much involved in material sense gratification then he can't go into trance.) Find it out. "In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination of devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place." This qualification. Your Divine Grace, how long are you staying at Vṛndāvana? I'm going . . . oh, Vṛndāvana? Three weeks. When you are . . . Any time you are home. Any time which is convenient to Your Divine Grace. Shall I come over to Vṛndāvana on the 15th evening? Fifteenth evening, I'll come over to Vṛndāvana? Oh, yes. And then what is the program? Your Divine Grace is coming back to Delhi from Vṛndāvana after three weeks' stay? They have made program to go to Chandigarh. *Chandigarh. You can . . . (indistinct) . . . Aligarh. Your Divine Grace can go to Aligarh to Delhi. The route is almost the same distance from here to Vṛndāvana. And you can go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh. About five miles, eight miles difference. It won't cost you much mileage*-wise. Udhar . . .(indistinct) . . . ka koi jhanjhat hai? (Is there any complication about this? . . .) No. The road is okay. You said we should go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh? In my opinion you should. I heard that road is very bad. Five or six kilometers they have raised the road by about six, seven feet, and all this is all mud and muck, and the car skids. In my opinion, you go via Aligarh. Or we can come to Aligarh from Vṛndāvana. I'm suggesting because I don't want to . . . (indistinct) . . . go back to Vṛndāvana and then come . . . (indistinct) . . . (Gopāla Kṛṣṇa converses with Indians about which road to take) . . . (indistinct) . . . *Bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ . . . purport? Purport: " Samādhi means 'fixed mind.' The Vedic dictionary, the Nirukti, says, samyag ādhīyate 'sminn ātmatattva-yāthātmyam : 'When the mind is fixed for understanding the self, it is called samādhi .' Samādhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment, nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things. They are more or less condemned by the process of material energy." *Yehi agyan hai ki thodi der ke liye ye bhautik sukh me aaplog fas jate hain aur usise hamara agyan chaloo hota hai. Shastra adi paath karne se sab gyan milta hai vishesh karke Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Aap usko padh rahe hain ki nahin? (This is the ignorance that for a short period you get entangled in these material comforts and from that our ignorance begins. By reading the scriptures we get all knowledge, especially Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Are you reading it or not? ) *Prahlāda Mahārāja yahi bataye hain 'śoce tato vimukha*-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān' (SB 7.9.43) Hamare liye to koi dukh nahi hai, hum to kahin bhi baith jayenge aur apka naam, gun kirtan karenge. Baki hamara sochne ka jo cheez hai, ye moorkh log thode der ke bhautik sukh ke liye itna parishram karte hain, great arrangement. 'Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato' Sukh to sthayi nahi hai. Sukh to hai hi nahi, 10 sal, 20, sal, 50 sal, zyada se zyada 100 sal. 'Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato' bharam bolta hai na to God jaisa lagta hai, to ye vimudha jo hai, 'ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā' (Prahlāda Maharaj has said this śoce tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43) There is no sorrow for us, we will sit anywhere and start singing your name and glories. But the thing which we have to consider is : these rascals are working so hard day and night for a flickering moment of happiness. They are making great arrangements. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato Happiness is not permanent. There is no happiness, may be 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, maximum 100 years. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato So because of the illusion we feel ourselves as God, so this is ignorant ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā ) *Vimudha bataya ye log kya vastvik sukh hai jante nahi, jaisa ek balak hai, wo uska life ka jo purpose hai, education lena, age jake usko bahut kuch karna padega . . . to isi prakar hum log vimudh hai je jivan ka uddeshya kya hai, kis liye humko manushya jivan mila hai, kya chahiye, ye sab kuch vyavasta nahi karte, kewal acchi tarah se khayenge, achi tarah se soyenge, maza karenge, 'Māyā*-sukhāya', acchi tarah se ye sab bhog nahi kar sakega, usme bhi bahut zhanzhat hai. Thoda achi tarah se bhog karne ke liye jo vastu ki jarurat hai, sabko paisa to milta nahi, wo bhi bhagvan ki kripa se milta hai, nahi to sabhi bada aadmi ho jata tha usko paisa khub milta. Ek aadmi din bhar parishram karta hai usko khane ko do roti nahi milta hai. Roti sabhi ko milta hai, kutta ko bhi milta hai. Aur ek aadmi thoda hi parishram kiya aur bahut rupaya milta hai. Ye bhagvan dene se milta hai, ye nischit hai. Jisko bhagwan deta hai usko milta hai. Wo apna destiny lekar aata hai. Jabardasti humko zyada parishram karne se jyada mil jayega, ye bhul dharana hai (verse) so utna hi apko milega jitna apko hak hai, destiny. Lekin dukh, dukh ko koi bulata nahi tabhi dukh pahunch jata hai . . . Jisko jitna dukh milna hai wo milega, to sastra kehte hain jitna apko sukh milna ko hai wo milega, to uske liye prayas karna. Wo jitna tumko milna hai mil jayega thik time pe. Tum prayas karo kis tarah se bhagwan ko samajh sakte ho, uske liye prayas karo. (verse) Kyunki janm-janmantar gaya bhagvan ko samajha nahi, upar-niche bahut ghoome, kabhi swarglok me gaya, kabhi nark me gaya, sab doondh ke aya hai . . . ab jo manushya jivan mila hai ab bhagvan ke liye koshish karo, mil jayega, aur sukh-dukh ke liye tumhara jitna destiny hai wo mil jaygega. Adhik prayas karne ka koi jaroorat nahi. (Ignorant person doesn't know what is real happiness, just like a child, what is the purpose of his life? To get education, going forward he has to achieve a lot . . . similarly we are ignorant, what is the purpose of our life? Why have we got this human form of life? What do we want? We do not organize these matters, only eat nicely, have fun, sleep, " maya sukhaya " but he will not be able to enjoy these pleasures as well nicely, there are a lot of complications in this. To enjoy sense gratification we need resources, everyone doesn't get money, that also is received by the mercy of God, otherwise everyone would have become a rich man. One man works hard day and night and he doesn't get a square meal a day. Everybody gets a piece of bread, even a dog. On the other hand, another man puts just little effort but gets lots of money. He gets this only if God gives it, this is certain. Whoever the Lord gives, he receives it. He brings along his destiny. Forcibly if we work very hard then we will get more, that is a misconception (verse). So you will only get that much on which you have the rights, destiny. But sadness, nobody invites it but still it comes. How much one has to suffer, he will suffer. The scripture says, how much ever happiness you have to get you will get, no need to work very hard. The one which you are destined to receive, you will receive at the correct time. You should endeavor how to understand God. Because life after life has passed and we have not understood God, we have traveled in the lower planets and the upper planets, sometimes went to heavenly planets and sometimes to hellish planets, we searched everywhere and came back. Now that you have got the human form of life, try to reach for God and you will get Him. And for happiness and distress whatever is there in your destiny you will get, no need to put in an extra effort. (verse).) You have got that? *Na tat*-prayāsaḥ kartavyam . What is that? *Some mahā*-prasādam . For me? They are offering it to you. *Na tat*-prayāsaḥ kartavyam . (aside) He can go. You can go. You have . . . (indistinct) . . . now. Ye mahine ke aakhir me, is mahine ke aakhir me Septmeber. (At the end of this month, at the end of this month, September.) He . . . her son—he is the father and mother—he's an Indian, in Detroit, very good boy, getting very nice. He, living in the temple, husband and wife, child we have. Bachā, ek bachā? (Children, one child?) He's getting very happy, very nice boy. Hamara ye sanstha me Indian koi join karta hai to udhar se hi karta hai, idhar se nahi karta hai. (In this organization if some Indian joins, then it's only from that part, they don't join from this part.) Just like their son, he's educated very nicely. Educated boys are joining from foreign countries, and not from here. Iska kya karan hai boliye. (Tell me what should we do for this.) . . . (indistinct) . . . *Ye jo Gopāla Kṛṣṇa hain ye bhi udhar se hi join hue the, he was sales manager in Coca*-Cola. Usko 15000 dollar milta hai yearly, 15000 dollar kitna hota hai? 1200 mil sakta hai, 12000 milna koi sadharan baat nahi hai. Aisa aur ek beta hai, wo bhi engineer hai, Yashomatinandan, gujrati, uska maa-baap hai. To do-char jo Indians padhe-likhe hain wo udhar se hi join hote hain. (Gopāla Kṛṣṇa had also joined from there, he was sales manager in Coca-Cola. He gets 15,000 dollars annually. How much is 15,000 dollars. He can get 1,200, is it such a small thing to get 12,000.There is one more son like this,he is also an engineer, Yasomatinandana, Gujarati, he has parents. So 2 to 4 educated Indians have all joined from there.) . . . (indistinct) . . . you have got that book? Ah . . . Stillson Judah's? No. It's in Bombay. We may have a copy in Vṛndāvana also. One professor, Stillson Judah, he has written one book. After studying our movement five years he has written one Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. Counterculture. Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. To bahut scientific research hai . . .Wo opinion diya hai . . . (So a lot of scientific research is there . . . they have given the opinion . . .) Doesn't have a copy here. It's published by Princeton University Press. In their religion . . . in their set of volumes on different religions. . . . (indistinct) . . . prasādam . Aiiye, aiiye, aiiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa, bahut kripa hai, prasad do. (Please come. Hare Kṛṣṇa, we are fortunate, give them prasad .) (new guest arrives) Accha nahi hai tabiyat bahut hi kharab hai. (Health is not good, very poor condition.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . How are you, sir? Idhar aaye koi kaam tha? (You came here, any work?) You came here for some . . . Yes, then I thought I would go to your old place. The . . . (indistinct) . . . this was here . . . (indistinct) . . . the old place, I didn't get any response. There was nobody there now. But when you shifted from there? There is nobody there now. No. . . . (indistinct) And this place is better than that. Very much. Oh, yes. How long you will stay? I am going tomorrow, Vṛndāvana. . . . (indistinct) I'll be three weeks there. . . . (indistinct) Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Of course. *Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa*-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam . Ye to bhagvan aradya vastu hai, brajnandan Hari. (This is a worshipable God, Brajanandana Hari.) As He is worshipable, similarly, Vṛndāvana dhāma is also worshipable. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam ramya kācid upāsana vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā va kalpitā . Upāsana , vraja-vadhū , the vraja , damsels of vrajabhūmi , the gopīs, as they worship the Lord, there is no comparison to that process of worship. Vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā . Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvana . I think we are going there after Parliament session closes tomorrow . . . (indistinct Hindi) Where? Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana . . . (indistinct) . . . then I was told that Mathurā and . . . (indistinct) . . . full. They spend so much money for the roadways; still it is not good. Draining the different levels, question arises, the water, the excessive in quantity, and the natural drains are not efficient enough to take it out . . . (indistinct) . . . I was told that . . . There is no sufficient outlet. Yes. But some of those āśrama , Mathurā, it's very deep, that four feet water in the āśramas . Three, four feet water. Within the āśramas ? And temple. You haven't recives any message from Vṛndāvana? Our temple is all right. Raman Reti is not flooded where we are. It's almost up to Fogel Ashram in the back, Yamunā, but it has not come to our Raman Reti. And now you will remain here in India for some time? That I do not know. I, actually, now it is little troublesome for me to travel all the year. You are just gone from . . . (indistinct) . . . so when the guests arrive . . . Rest, if I rest then there may be . . . because I am dealing with all neophytes. If I don't keep them alive by personal presence . . . still, they are doing nice. I have appointed twenty secretaries all over the world. I am training them. They are managing. Managing nicely. I have been in New York and Los Angeles and Hawaii, all big, big centers. London, Paris. Oh, it's a very great. Your program for Kurukṣetra and etcetera and the . . . Program was that they promised to give me a land. Who? That Chief Minister. Have they done so? Not yet. I heard about two acres was available recently, except that it . . . (indistinct) . . . I wrote you that the manner in which approach was made upset those people. And the Minister, I later learned . . . (indistinct) *We are trying for another big scheme in Bengal. We have applied to the government to acquire land, 350 acres, a big planetarium. Planetarium. We have described the planetarium in our Fifth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . In that planetarium it is said that the moon is above the sun planet, by one million six hundred thousand miles. What does astronomy say? The modern astronomy. They say the moon planet is nearer to earth planet, and they have gone there. Have you given up any idea about Kurukṣetra? No, no, not . . . No, because if you have the idea, the land is the least part of it, because so much is to be done . . . (indistinct) . . . if the idea is that something should be done. I learned that gentleman, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . and he has said that he will do something. I was not there at the time of the . . . (indistinct) (aside) You bring one little plate prasādam from there, from that . . . And you will be in Vṛndāvana for some . . . Three weeks. After that you don't know. After that where you go, you don't know. Yes. Well, this is God's work, Lord Kṛṣṇa's work. I am trying . . . (indistinct) . . . to cooperate with you, because nobody can do. No, you have done tremendous work. No, but which is very little considering the situation, the condition, problem in the country. I am at a lower level than your level than your work . . . (indistinct) The one encouraging thing in this movement is that our books are being very much appreciated. In all universities, foreign and Indian, libraries, professors, learned scholars. Yes, they'll branch out and then . . . it's a great service. We are selling books to the extent of sixty thousand dollars daily. I see. That is our only hope, that we shall not be financially in difficulty. People are taking our books very nicely. People are accepting our literature. It is not that difficulties were not there also . . . (indistinct) . . . I don't have the support, but I feel . . . (indistinct) . . . find that several places the demand for this, for the acceptance also . . . (indistinct) . . . coming forward, but not in the manner in which I had wanted . . . (indistinct) . . . lakhs of people stand against the forces which want to . . . (indistinct) . . . religion and moral side. There should be a linking up of all those who want religion to remain and morality to also be there. Those forces have to be met by also organized force from the right kind of people, religious people . . . (indistinct) . . . I hope they are not coming in your way. No, no. I remember that you had written yourself that there is something we could do together. Possibly this question, building and all that, whenever it comes there. It is good to have that building and that land, but even before that, there is work to be done at the Kurukṣetra. *My point is that Kurukṣetra is the place where Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken. So if we take the words of Bhagavad-gita as it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, then people will be benefitted. That is basic, of course. The foundation. *But if we do not take the words of Bhagavad*-gītā , then moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). That I believe. (aside) Find out this verse. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo . That's true. I also believe that there must be a direct . . . No, why not direct? Putting in your interpretation, that is wrong. It should be direct. That doesn't mean only those people who have accepted this can come together. And why the others will not accept? No, we have made, you must have seen our literature, *Gītā* as a text, but still people may not judge . . . No, no, we should not depend on the people's acceptance only. We have to present *Gītā* as it is. Now everything is not accepted by everyone. Even if you make change, there is no guarantee that they will . . . No, no. No, no, I am not speaking to you. Anyone. I am not trying to make a show. I believe a direct interpretation is important thing more than the other kinds of ideas and conceptions. "Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demoniac and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities and their culture of knowledge are all defeated." Go on. Go on. I have given any purport? *Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. "There are many devotees who assume themselves to be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and devotional service but at heart do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, as the Absolute Truth. For them, the fruit of devotional service—going back to Godhead—will never be tasted. Similarly, those who are engaged in fruitive, pious activities and who are ultimately hoping to be liberated from this material entanglement will never be successful either, because they deride the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. In other words, persons who mock Kṛṣṇa are to be understood to be demoniac or atheistic. As described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā , such demoniac miscreants never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore their mental speculations to arrive at the Absolute Truth bring them to the false conclusion that the ordinary living entity and Kṛṣṇa are one and the same. With such a false conviction, they think that the body of any human being is now simply covered by material nature and that as soon as one is liberated from this material body there is no difference between God and himself. This attempt to become one with Kṛṣṇa will be baffled because of delusion. Such atheistic and demoniac cultivation of spiritual knowledge is always futile. That is the indication of this verse. For such persons, cultivation of the knowledge in the Vedic literature, like the Vedānta-sūtra and the Upaniṣads , is always baffled." *"It is a great offense, therefore, to consider Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, to be an ordinary man. Those who do so are certainly deluded, because they cannot understand the eternal form of Kṛṣṇa. In the Bṛhad*-vaiṣṇava mantra it is clearly stated that one who considers the body of Kṛṣṇa to be material should be driven out from all rituals and activities of the śruti. And if one by chance sees his face, he should at once take bath in the Ganges to rid himself of infection. People jeer at Kṛṣṇa because they are envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Their destiny is certainly to take birth after birth in the species of atheistic and demoniac life. Perpetually, their real knowledge will remain under delusion, and gradually they will regress to the darkest region of creation." (indistinct) . . . I was reading this yesterday, the Eleventh Chapter. Eleventh Chapter? Eleventh Chapter, yes. There are twelve, twelve chapters. There, Kṛṣṇa Bhagavān has a dialogue with Uddhava. Hmm? *He's referring to Ekādaśa*-skandha of the Bhāgavatam . Uddhava. And there I felt . . . I thought that maybe whenever we meet I'll bring up this question with you. 'Cause the way in which it has been translated in Hindi which I read it does create a little question as to what Bhagavān Himself said about the status of the soul, the individual soul, and relationship . . . (indistinct) . . . because although I think I should have got it, they don't give it to the Life Members . . . (indistinct) Yes, *Bhāgavatam* , we're up to the Seventh Canto now in the printing. So this canto has come. *Yes, the canto has come out. So Saptama*-skandha , pādyokta . We're up to that. Now, well then if it is, if the member is . . . (indistinct) . . . now in the Eleventh there is . . . Eleventh Canto, yes. Then you will remember the verse? No, no, number . . . (indistinct) . . . again and again I had gone to that, and as to that, ultimately there is no difference. As soon as this . . . (indistinct) . . . when it comes. I would like this because I belong to the sect of our country, middle sect, from Swami Narayana. He's based on Rāmānujācārya philosophy, which says that all the souls are there, they are the body of the creator Bhagavān, just as the human ātmā has this body. This means there is the difference also identity. Identity is one, and yet they have their own place. That have been the faith which I have been . . . (indistinct) . . . now in many places this sometimes this differentiation remains, sometimes there is things said which wipe it out. I thought you would be the best person to give me some guidance . . . *As you say that Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad*-gita , mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). We living entities, we are part and parcel of God. Aṁśa . Aṁśa . So any common man can understand what is the . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- September 3, 1976, Vrndavana So, everything is going nice? Yes, by your grace only. We have a very beautiful garden for you. Hm. Garden? Oh. Guesthouse has improved very much. Now we have about twenty paying guests. And during Śrāvaṇa and Janmāṣṭamī it was completely full. Very, very encouraging. Actually, many of our Life Members were turned down. We met some in Delhi. They said they couldn't get in. The whole thing was full. They were fighting to come. So, they are allowed three days free? Only. Also book distribution has improved very much. Locally? Here in the temple specifically. Haihaya has been concentrating. He's very good. Hindi? Yes, Hindi magazines and what we can get. Viśāla alone does about two, three hundred every day. Viśāla is . . . Where is our Viśvambhara? Viśvambhara is helping nicely? Oh, yes. Hundred percent. (break) French. That's the new French *Bhāgavatam* on the back. Oh. I think I have seen it. Yes, that's the one we got in Paris, Bhagavān. It looks very nice. Oh, yes. Bank is going nice? The bank. The bank is all right. *Sab theek thak? Tabiyat theek hai to? Aur sab padosi theek*-thaak hai? (Everything is alright? Your health is fine? All neighbors are doing good?) So, the gurukula building, how far it is? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . you have got them, the keys? (devotees look through keys) Ji Han. (Yes) Main to sab tumhare bharosa me hi choda hun,ye log bichare ladkhalata hai. (I have left everything under your trust, else these people get wobbly.) . . . (indistinct conversation) (break) Ek manjil hogaya?(1 floor is completed?) Ek manjil ab nahi ho sakta, ek mahina lag jayega. (1 floor can't be done now, it will take around 1 month.) *When devotees come for Gaura*-Pūrṇimā . . . Ground floor me reh sakte hain . . .Jab bhakt ayenge agle saal festival pe, ground floor aur first floor me reh sakenge. (They can stay on the ground floor . . .When devotees come next year for the festival, they cab stay in the ground floor and first floo.) (. . . indistinct. . .) Ayega to idhar se hokar sab jayega. (If they come, they would first come over here and then go.) Māyāpur, Delhi, Vṛndāvana, Bombay. From Bombay back to Europe. . . .Hamari aur nahi aye Prabhupāda? Ki Nityānanda festival yahan ho aur Gaur Purnima Māyāpur me ho, aur Ram Navami Bombay ho (You won't come to our place, Prabhupāda? We can have Nityānanda festival here and then Gaur Purnima in Māyāpur and Ram Navami in Bombay.) . . . (indistinct) . . . . . . So let them come first of all here from Delhi. They come first here. Thing is, the whole thing has to be completed in three weeks, because the American GBCs don't like . . . they think it is a very big loss financially. . . . Agar teen hafta se jyada India me rehana hai to financially bahut mehenga padta hai kyunki sab devotees . . . (. . . to stay in India for more than 3 weeks becomes very expensive for all the devotees because . . .) Book distribution stops completely. They are saying . . . (indistinct conversation with Bhagatjī) Where is Hari-śauri? Hari-śauri? Prabhupāda wants you. Is that correct? Is that correct key? What is that? This one's for some of the locks on the doors. Which door? Ah, front door. I think it was one on the bedroom originally. They may have taken them off again. Find out the door. . . . (indistinct Hindi conversation with Prabhupāda) *He is pakkā*-bāṇiyā , and here is another, more pakkā . (laughter) Ye pakka baniya hai. (He is a thorough business man) (. . . indistinct . . . ) Aap to sahansheel hain, ye apka special quality hai. (You are so tolerant, this is your special quality.) He is very tolerant. He's very calm. . . . To wo kehne lage ye jo mandir hai . . .lekin aap . . . Mene kaha tha dekhiye, me Iskcon Prabhupāda ji pe viswas karta hun, aur me hriday se kehta hun ki me Iskcon ko . . . wese me jab me hun ya na hun . . . (indistinct) . . . (So he started saying, this temple . . . but you . . . I told, look, I believe in Iskcon Prabhupāda ji, and I say it with my heart that I believe in Iskcon . . . even if I am there or not there . . .) Apne kya socha hai? (What have you thought?) . . . Maine, ye socha saab, ye contractor bade ache mile hain, badhiya party hai, bade imandar aadmi hain . . .Kitni musibat padi hai unko nikalne me ye ap hamare dil se puchiye. Kitni musibat padi hai saaman uthane me . . . (I have thought, the contractors whom we have got are very good. It's a good party, they are very honest . . . You can ask my heart, how great difficulty it was in getting them out. There was so much difficulty in lifting the luggage . . . ) Mumbai se . . .(From Mumbai . . .) . . . Prabhupāda ne nikalwa diya Mumbai se. . .(Prabhupāda got us out from Mumbai . . .) . . . To Prabhupāda wo jab me gaya, sabse pucha,humne kaha pehle kimat lagayi hai apne .Mene unse keh diya 10 rupaya hum government ne (. . . indistinct) aur itna hamara paisa kharch ho raha hai. Aur aap banayenge 7 feet jo hai sadak ke center se master plan me apko zameen chodni padegi agar ap ashram banayegnge. Aur residence banayenge to aur jyada zameen chodni padegi (. . . indistinct. . .) Me ek bhai ke nate maine kaha ki apse me keh raha hun ap karo , aur hamare bachon ke liye khelne ka maidan ban jayega, ek tent ban jayega chota sa. Are aap usko muft de do to hum apka naam likhwaden isme (. . . indistinct . . .) Hum chinta karte rahe Prabhupāda ye zameen to hum apne paise se lenge chahe kuch ho.(So Prabhupāda when I went, I asked everybody, I asked them to fix the price first. I said 10 rupees our Government . . . (indistinct) . . . and this the amount which gets spent. And you want to make 7 feet from road's center, so in the master plan you would have to leave land if you want to build ashram. And if you want to build a residence, you would have to leave even more land. As a brother, I said you do it, and there is will be some space as playground for our children to play, and we could also put a small tent. And if you give it for free, we will write your name on it. ) Tit for Tat. Bahut baniya hain aap. (All laughing) Bhagwan Kṛṣṇa bhi baniya hain. (You are a very big merchant. Lord Kṛṣṇa was also a merhcant.) . . . Han yashoda mayya to vaishya hain. (Yes, Yashoda mayya was a vaishya.) Bhagwan Vṛndāvana me baniya hain aur jagah me Kshatriya hain. Hain to bhagwan sabhi. (Lord is merchant in Vṛndāvana but in all other places he is Kshatriya. Anyways, in both forms he is God.) (to Pālikā) You have come before? Or with us? With you. In a bus. I have some fruits ready for you, if you'd like to take. Yes. You have . . . (indistinct) . . . paraṭā ? No. What you have prepared? . . . (indistinct Hindi) Jitna jaroorat hai utna collect karo. (Collect only that which is required.) Keep patience. I am not dishonest. Dishonest or not . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . your family is very nice. Keep patience. I am not dishonest . . . (indistinct Hindi) Your breakfast has come. Breakfast is here. I'll take. This man, he's not . . . (indistinct) . . . jaya . Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Come Krishna*-Balaram sabko sukhi kare, aur kya humlog chahte hain. Sab uni ka kripa hai. (May Kṛṣṇa Balarāma make everyone happy, what else do we want? Everything is His mercy.) Balarāma . . . bala-hīnena labhya (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 3.2.4). Wo bhagvan Baladev ka kripa bina yahan kabza nahi hota hai. Wo Vivekananda uska meaning kiya hai. Jiska takat kam hai wo kabhi . . . labh nahi kar sakta. Mota-taaza khub maans khao wo mota-taaza bahut . . . ye hota hai. (Balarāma . . . if He showers His mercy then anything is possible. Vivekananda gave the meaning of this verse to one who has less muscle power . . . what is the use? Fat, sturdy, eats a lot of meat and becomes fat . . . this is what happens.) By your mercy, Balarāmajī is giving. *Nitāiyer koruṇā habe braje rādhā*-kṛṣṇa pābe . These rascals, they do not know. Nitāi, balarāma hoila nitāi . So without the mercy of Balarāma, nobody can appreciate Vṛndāvana life. Jaya . (end) Conversation A -- September 3, 1976, Vrndavana So, everything is going nice? Yes, by your grace only. We have a very beautiful garden for you. Hm. Garden? Oh. Guesthouse has improved very much. Now we have about twenty paying guests. And during Śrāvaṇa and Janmāṣṭamī it was completely full. Very, very encouraging. Actually, many of our Life Members were turned down. We met some in Delhi. They said they couldn't get in. The whole thing was full. They were fighting to come. So, they are allowed three days free? Only. Also book distribution has improved very much. Locally? Here in the temple specifically. Haihaya has been concentrating. He's very good. Hindi? Yes, Hindi magazines and what we can get. Viśāla alone does about two, three hundred every day. Viśāla is . . . Where is our Viśvambhara? Viśvambhara is helping nicely? Oh, yes. Hundred percent. (break) French. That's the new French *Bhāgavatam* on the back. Oh. I think I have seen it. Yes, that's the one we got in Paris, Bhagavān. It looks very nice. Oh, yes. Bank is going nice? The bank. The bank is all right. *Sab theek thak? Tabiyat theek hai to? Aur sab padosi theek*-thaak hai? (Everything is alright? Your health is fine? All neighbors are doing good?) So, the gurukula building, how far it is? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . you have got them, the keys? (devotees look through keys) Ji Han. (Yes) Main to sab tumhare bharosa me hi choda hun,ye log bichare ladkhalata hai. (I have left everything under your trust, else these people get wobbly.) . . . (indistinct conversation) (break) Ek manjil hogaya?(1 floor is completed?) Ek manjil ab nahi ho sakta, ek mahina lag jayega. (1 floor can't be done now, it will take around 1 month.) *When devotees come for Gaura*-Pūrṇimā . . . Ground floor me reh sakte hain . . .Jab bhakt ayenge agle saal festival pe, ground floor aur first floor me reh sakenge. (They can stay on the ground floor . . .When devotees come next year for the festival, they cab stay in the ground floor and first floo.) (. . . indistinct. . .) Ayega to idhar se hokar sab jayega. (If they come, they would first come over here and then go.) Māyāpur, Delhi, Vṛndāvana, Bombay. From Bombay back to Europe. . . .Hamari aur nahi aye Prabhupāda? Ki Nityānanda festival yahan ho aur Gaur Purnima Māyāpur me ho, aur Ram Navami Bombay ho (You won't come to our place, Prabhupāda? We can have Nityānanda festival here and then Gaur Purnima in Māyāpur and Ram Navami in Bombay.) . . . (indistinct) . . . . . . So let them come first of all here from Delhi. They come first here. Thing is, the whole thing has to be completed in three weeks, because the American GBCs don't like . . . they think it is a very big loss financially. . . . Agar teen hafta se jyada India me rehana hai to financially bahut mehenga padta hai kyunki sab devotees . . . (. . . to stay in India for more than 3 weeks becomes very expensive for all the devotees because . . .) Book distribution stops completely. They are saying . . . (indistinct conversation with Bhagatjī) Where is Hari-śauri? Hari-śauri? Prabhupāda wants you. Is that correct? Is that correct key? What is that? This one's for some of the locks on the doors. Which door? Ah, front door. I think it was one on the bedroom originally. They may have taken them off again. Find out the door. . . . (indistinct Hindi conversation with Prabhupāda) *He is pakkā*-bāṇiyā , and here is another, more pakkā . (laughter) Ye pakka baniya hai. (He is a thorough business man) (. . . indistinct . . . ) Aap to sahansheel hain, ye apka special quality hai. (You are so tolerant, this is your special quality.) He is very tolerant. He's very calm. . . . To wo kehne lage ye jo mandir hai . . .lekin aap . . . Mene kaha tha dekhiye, me Iskcon Prabhupāda ji pe viswas karta hun, aur me hriday se kehta hun ki me Iskcon ko . . . wese me jab me hun ya na hun . . . (indistinct) . . . (So he started saying, this temple . . . but you . . . I told, look, I believe in Iskcon Prabhupāda ji, and I say it with my heart that I believe in Iskcon . . . even if I am there or not there . . .) Apne kya socha hai? (What have you thought?) . . . Maine, ye socha saab, ye contractor bade ache mile hain, badhiya party hai, bade imandar aadmi hain . . .Kitni musibat padi hai unko nikalne me ye ap hamare dil se puchiye. Kitni musibat padi hai saaman uthane me . . . (I have thought, the contractors whom we have got are very good. It's a good party, they are very honest . . . You can ask my heart, how great difficulty it was in getting them out. There was so much difficulty in lifting the luggage . . . ) Mumbai se . . .(From Mumbai . . .) . . . Prabhupāda ne nikalwa diya Mumbai se. . .(Prabhupāda got us out from Mumbai . . .) . . . To Prabhupāda wo jab me gaya, sabse pucha,humne kaha pehle kimat lagayi hai apne .Mene unse keh diya 10 rupaya hum government ne (. . . indistinct) aur itna hamara paisa kharch ho raha hai. Aur aap banayenge 7 feet jo hai sadak ke center se master plan me apko zameen chodni padegi agar ap ashram banayegnge. Aur residence banayenge to aur jyada zameen chodni padegi (. . . indistinct. . .) Me ek bhai ke nate maine kaha ki apse me keh raha hun ap karo , aur hamare bachon ke liye khelne ka maidan ban jayega, ek tent ban jayega chota sa. Are aap usko muft de do to hum apka naam likhwaden isme (. . . indistinct . . .) Hum chinta karte rahe Prabhupāda ye zameen to hum apne paise se lenge chahe kuch ho.(So Prabhupāda when I went, I asked everybody, I asked them to fix the price first. I said 10 rupees our Government . . . (indistinct) . . . and this the amount which gets spent. And you want to make 7 feet from road's center, so in the master plan you would have to leave land if you want to build ashram. And if you want to build a residence, you would have to leave even more land. As a brother, I said you do it, and there is will be some space as playground for our children to play, and we could also put a small tent. And if you give it for free, we will write your name on it. ) Tit for Tat. Bahut baniya hain aap. (All laughing) Bhagwan Kṛṣṇa bhi baniya hain. (You are a very big merchant. Lord Kṛṣṇa was also a merhcant.) . . . Han yashoda mayya to vaishya hain. (Yes, Yashoda mayya was a vaishya.) Bhagwan Vṛndāvana me baniya hain aur jagah me Kshatriya hain. Hain to bhagwan sabhi. (Lord is merchant in Vṛndāvana but in all other places he is Kshatriya. Anyways, in both forms he is God.) (to Pālikā) You have come before? Or with us? With you. In a bus. I have some fruits ready for you, if you'd like to take. Yes. You have . . . (indistinct) . . . paraṭā ? No. What you have prepared? . . . (indistinct Hindi) Jitna jaroorat hai utna collect karo. (Collect only that which is required.) Keep patience. I am not dishonest. Dishonest or not . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . your family is very nice. Keep patience. I am not dishonest . . . (indistinct Hindi) Your breakfast has come. Breakfast is here. I'll take. This man, he's not . . . (indistinct) . . . jaya . Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Come Krishna*-Balaram sabko sukhi kare, aur kya humlog chahte hain. Sab uni ka kripa hai. (May Kṛṣṇa Balarāma make everyone happy, what else do we want? Everything is His mercy.) Balarāma . . . bala-hīnena labhya (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 3.2.4). Wo bhagvan Baladev ka kripa bina yahan kabza nahi hota hai. Wo Vivekananda uska meaning kiya hai. Jiska takat kam hai wo kabhi . . . labh nahi kar sakta. Mota-taaza khub maans khao wo mota-taaza bahut . . . ye hota hai. (Balarāma . . . if He showers His mercy then anything is possible. Vivekananda gave the meaning of this verse to one who has less muscle power . . . what is the use? Fat, sturdy, eats a lot of meat and becomes fat . . . this is what happens.) By your mercy, Balarāmajī is giving. *Nitāiyer koruṇā habe braje rādhā*-kṛṣṇa pābe . These rascals, they do not know. Nitāi, balarāma hoila nitāi . So without the mercy of Balarāma, nobody can appreciate Vṛndāvana life. Jaya . (end) Conversation -- September 4, 1976, Vrndavana This is sādhu . Not the dress. Now, what is the . . . "The symptoms of a sādhu are that he is tolerant, merciful, and friendly to all living entities. He has no enemies, he is peaceful, he abides by the scriptures and all his characteristics are sublime." *This is sādhu . The first qualification is titikṣava , very tolerant. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has said, kṣamā*-rūpaṁ tapasvinām. Those who are tapasvīs , their first duty is how much he is forgiving, how much he has learned to forgive. Kṣamā-rūpaṁ tapasvinām. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena (SB 6.1.13). So what is the explanation? *Purport? "A sādhu , as described above, is a devotee of the Lord. His concern, therefore, is to enlighten people in devotional service to the Lord. That is his mercy. He knows that without devotional service to the Lord, human life is spoiled. A devotee travels all over the country, from door to door, preaching, 'Be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Be a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Don't spoil your life in simply fulfilling your animal propensities. Human life is meant for self*-realization, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness.' These are the preachings of a sādhu . He is not satisfied with his own liberation. He always thinks about others. He is the most compassionate personality towards all the fallen souls. One of his qualifications, therefore, is kāruṇika , great mercy to the fallen souls. While engaged in preaching work, he has to meet with so many opposing elements, and therefore the sādhu , or devotee of the Lord, has to be very tolerant. Someone may ill-treat him, because the conditioned souls are not prepared to receive the transcendental knowledge of devotional service. They don't like it; *that is their disease. The sādhu has the thankless task of imposing upon them the importance of devotional service. Sometimes devotees are personally attacked with violence. Lord Jesus Christ was crucified, Haridāsa Ṭhākura was caned in twenty*-two marketplaces, and Lord Caitanya's principal assistant, Nityānanda, was violently attacked by Jagāi and Mādhāi. But still they were tolerant because their mission was to deliver the fallen souls. One of the qualifications of a sādhu is that he is very tolerant and is merciful to all fallen souls. He is merciful because he is the well-wisher of all living entities. He is not only a well-wisher of human society, but a well-wisher of animal society as well. It is said here, sarva-dehinām , which indicates all living entities who have accepted a material body. Not only does the human being have a material body, but other living entities, such as cats and dogs, also have material bodies. The devotee of the Lord is merciful to everyone—the cats, dogs, trees, etc. He treats all living entities in such a way that they can ultimately get salvation from this material entanglement. Śivānanda Sena, one of the disciples of Lord Caitanya, gave liberation to a dog by treating the dog transcendentally. There are many instances where a dog got salvation by association with a sādhu , because a sādhu engages in the highest philanthropic activities for the benediction of all living entities. Yet although a sādhu is not inimical towards anyone, the world is so ungrateful that even a sādhu has many enemies." "What is the difference between an enemy and a friend? It is a difference in behavior. A sādhu behaves with all conditioned souls for their ultimate relief from the material entanglement. Therefore, no one can be more friendly than a sādhu in relieving a conditioned soul. A sādhu is calm, and he quietly and peacefully follows the principles of scripture. A sādhu means one who follows the principles of scripture and at the same time is a devotee of the Lord. One who actually follows the principles of scripture must be a devotee of God because all the śāstras instruct us to obey the orders of the Personality of Godhead. Sādhu , therefore, means a follower of the scriptural injunctions and a devotee of the Lord. All these characteristics are prominent in a devotee. A devotee develops all the good qualities of the demigods, whereas a nondevotee, even though academically qualified, has no actual good qualifications or good characteristics . . ." Where is this going on? (asking about banging sound) That's just the old reception room. What is it? They are making alterations. Alteration? What is that alteration? I don't know exactly what they're doing. No, what they're doing is that room, everybody goes there, the guests all go there. So in the past it's just been a big empty, wasted room. So now what they're doing is making it a big preaching room with photos all around and book tables set up in such a way that someone can just walk in that room and there's a whole exhibit for him to see. And even if . . . Who has gotten this idea? I think Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. It's an exhibition room. Then they are breaking wall, or what? No, no, they're not breaking. They made a big door so that you can walk straight in from the outside. You saw that door yesterday. Now what they're doing is they're building shelves and bookcases. Hmm. That sound is disturbing. Would you like them to stop it until you left? If stop, then how their work will go on? They manufacture ideas and spend money. This is the difficulty. Everyone manufactures some idea. And break it, do it, dig it. Money is coming, and they are spending it. They cannot adjust whatever is there. Big, big ideas. Big, big belly. And money we have to bring from America. "Give me one lakh , give me one lakh , 15,000. I make idea, you pay." So many rooms you can make showroom. Why breaking this door, breaking that door? Too many cooks spoils the broth. And repairing and, what is called, addition, alteration, will never stop. I do not know how to stop it. Now, the other, yesterday, that Viśvambhara said . . . you were here, no? Bisancandra said, suggesting there should be rack three feet high, seven feet high, this high . . . everyone will suggest. And spend money. Any friend, you bring him, he'll suggest so that you may spend it. And wherefrom money will come? "Oh, that is your look after. I am your friend, I am giving you good suggestion. Break it. Do it. I am your friend. You break your head." (laughs) There was a Muhammadan king, Raja Uddin or some . . . Nizamuddin. Nizamuddin there is a tomb in Delhi. He was poet. So if some friends come he would read some writing, and he will suggest, the friend will suggest, "Why don't you make like this?" "Oh, it is good. All right." He'll do it, whatever he says. And when he goes away, then again makes his own. So the secretary said, "Why you are changing?" "What can I do? Those associate . . . that is my friend. And that is nonsense; therefore I am again doing what I wrote." So we have to do that. As soon as you call anybody, he'll give you some suggestion, "Make this alteration, make this alteration." Hmm. (pause) So description of the sādhu is there. It is very nice. Where they will find this description all over the world? Hmm? I think there's only one person who's following that description. No, I say about Bhāgavata's description. How perfect it is in any subject matter. I have tried to explain what is there in the Bhāgavatam , expand it. That is not my explanation; *that is Kṛṣṇa's explanation. I cannot explain now. That moment I could explain. That means Kṛṣṇa's . . . I can understand that, that the description is very nicely given. Although it is my writing, but I know it is not my writing. It is Kṛṣṇa's writing. So we should read Bhāgavatam always. Nityaṁ bhāgavata*-sevayā (SB 1.2.18). We should not waste our time. So we have to check that closet. You can . . . "They say there is no . . ." (break) Then you are only intelligent. All are fools. That means you are fool number one. If you think like that . . . Yes, but in India . . . No, now you cannot say Indians. (laughs) Now we cannot say only Indians worship Kṛṣṇa. Whole world. That is God. They are not fools and rascals. They are educated, they are civilized. Why they accept Kṛṣṇa as God? Yesterday I was telling who? I think Caraṇam . . .? Caraṇāravindam. Caraṇāravindam, that the Englishmen were ruling over us. Now here is English boy, he's giving me massage and fanning me. What is the reason? Unless he feels something obligation that, "He has given us Kṛṣṇa," what business he has got? Not for him, for all of you, to give so valuable free service, unless there is this sense. What do you think? You have no obligation. You are European, American. I am Indian. It is through this via media, Kṛṣṇa. This is practical. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is God. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). Because they have got sense that "We have got God," therefore they are feeling so much obliged. Kṛṣṇa is God, there is no doubt about it. It is not yet ready? They're making a plate now. Viśvambhara is there? Yes. So we shall follow strictly. "Here is God. Take." Because if you are serious after God, "Here is God. Take Kṛṣṇa." This is our philosophy. Hmm? What is the answer? If he's serious about God. I think this paper wrote that, that Village ? "We thought God is dead." Greenwich Village. East Village? That paper? It's that paper in New York. Long ago. Village Voice . Hah. Village . . . The Village Voice . Ah, yes. They told first that, "We thought God is dead." And actually they were dancing in the name of God, Acyutānanda and Brahmānanda. You have seen the picture showing? In this French Back To Godhead . (showing picture) Oh, that's Acyutānanda too! Oh! They were the first candidates to dance with my kīrtana . I didn't know that was Acyutānanda. I recognize Hayagrīva but . . . That's not Hayagrīva, it's Brahmānanda. That's not Hayagrīva? No. Hayagrīva . . . It's a picture of Brahmānanda and Acyutānanda dancing, and Prabhupāda's playing on tabla, and there's Kīrtanānanda sat down on the corner. Boy, was he skinny in those days! This is Brahmānanda? And this is Kīrtanānanda Swami sitting down? Just Brahmānanda, Kīrtanānanda standing together. Acyutānanda. Oh, Acyutānanda. Acyutānanda. And Kīrtanānanda's sitting down. Kīrtanānanda's sitting there? Yes. He sat next to you. He's shaved up. They're so skinny. This was published in New York Times . New York Times ? With picture. The other picture was published in Voice, Village Voice , yes. Yes. Big picture. One page. They felt something—otherwise, why they should publish? Appealed to them, that "Here is God." This is really a historic picture. Underneath a tree I was sitting and speaking. That's all. And when I would come back from the park to my apartment, at least two dozen people will come with me. Like a Pied Piper. Huh? There's a story in the West about a man called the Pied Piper. He went to one place and played the flute, and all the children followed him away from the village. You're like the Pied Piper who went to the West, took all the children. If you know French language you can read it. He knows French. Ah, you know. What is written there? The article is by Hayagrīva, and the heading, it says, "Are you from India?" That was when he met you on the street. Yes, he first of all met me on the street and asked me this question. And I brought him, "Yes, I have taken one apartment here. You come here with me." Then I came back to show him the apartment. And from the next day they began to come, Kīrtanānanda and Hayagrīva. Second Avenue apartment? Yes. And this Umāpati. Then Satsvarūpa. They began to come regularly. Mukunda, you were already . . . Yes, Mukunda was before that. When was this, then, when Acyutānanda and Brahmānanda came? That was after . . . This was in the park, Tompkinson. That was after Hayagrīva and . . . No, simultaneous. This was the fall of 1966. October, maybe. Yes. I was going in the park on Sunday and began from three: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, that dundubhi . What is that, in the hand? *A tom*-tom. *Tom*-tom drum. *Tom*-tom. Yes. He's explaining why you came to America, and that in three years you spread the mantra all over the Western world. Yogeśvara has many pictures of this. I saw all of them once. He is good collector. (break) What is that reason? What is that reason? *To perceive things, and after that we can arrive at long*-term solutions. First of all, what is the problem and what is the solution? What is the problem that you require solution? Any problem which comes. No, what is that? That I want to know. Problem is of being happy in the world. These are vague terms. You must distinctly say that, "This is happiness" and "This is problem." What is your . . . what is the idea of happiness and what is the problem? That I want to know. That I'm not very much clear at this stage of life. Happiness . . . suppose if you can get a nice, palatable dish for eating, you'll be happy. But the dog also, if he can get some good eating, he'll be happy. So where is the difference between dog's happiness and your happiness? Happiness should be combined with mental peace. What is that mental peace? To rest in yourself only. Don't run after worldly things. Yes. But that is not possible for the animal. Therefore to remain happy within yourself, that is a prerogative of the human being. But we are not trying for that purpose. We are trying to be happy by eating, by sleeping, by sex or by defense. This is our platform of happiness. A dog cannot go to the restaurant, but a human being, if he goes to a restaurant and he can eat palatable dishes, he thinks he's happy. But what is that eating? In your standard you feel happiness, whereas on the street you'll find a pig, he's happy by eating stool. One man's food another man's poison. So eating happiness is there, but the standard different. Therefore this eating is common affair, and happiness derived from eating is as good by the dog as by the pig and human being. Your idea is clear. *So we should know . . . happiness is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā : sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyaṁ grāhyam (BG 6.21). What is happiness, that is beyond the senses. The sense happiness is there by the pig and the man. But his standard of sense happiness is different from the man's. Standard may be different, but the happiness derived from the subject matter is the same. There is no difference. So happiness lies above the senses, above our indriyanas . Hah. Happiness means spiritual happiness. That they do not know. Therefore I began my words that so long one is after material happiness he remains as an animal. . . . (indistinct) *Because the animal cannot derive spiritual happiness. They do not know. The man can know. Just like this boy, he's coming from very high family in America, but he's now happy in this way, by taking sannyāsa , giving up everything, living very plainly. He has got money, he has got beautiful wife, he has got beautiful home, everything. But he has given up. Not his example . . . in our country there were many many big, big kings, rājarṣis . Just like Bharata Mahārāja. He was emperor of the whole world. He gave up everything at the age of twenty*-four years—young wife, young children. There are many examples. So actually, we have lost our Vedic culture, the objective, and therefore we are suffering. Simply by holding meetings and . . . of course, these things will go on. Government has no other remedy by tax. Whether people are happy or they are unhappy, it doesn't matter. They have got the power, tax. Accha sir. (Okay sir.) the end of . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prasādam . Your ideas are superb. You remain in Mathurā? Yes, I am. Here is prasādam . Give. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- September 4, 1976, Vrndavana This is sādhu . Not the dress. Now, what is the . . . "The symptoms of a sādhu are that he is tolerant, merciful, and friendly to all living entities. He has no enemies, he is peaceful, he abides by the scriptures and all his characteristics are sublime." *This is sādhu . The first qualification is titikṣava , very tolerant. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has said, kṣamā*-rūpaṁ tapasvinām. Those who are tapasvīs , their first duty is how much he is forgiving, how much he has learned to forgive. Kṣamā-rūpaṁ tapasvinām. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena (SB 6.1.13). So what is the explanation? *Purport? "A sādhu , as described above, is a devotee of the Lord. His concern, therefore, is to enlighten people in devotional service to the Lord. That is his mercy. He knows that without devotional service to the Lord, human life is spoiled. A devotee travels all over the country, from door to door, preaching, 'Be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Be a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Don't spoil your life in simply fulfilling your animal propensities. Human life is meant for self*-realization, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness.' These are the preachings of a sādhu . He is not satisfied with his own liberation. He always thinks about others. He is the most compassionate personality towards all the fallen souls. One of his qualifications, therefore, is kāruṇika , great mercy to the fallen souls. While engaged in preaching work, he has to meet with so many opposing elements, and therefore the sādhu , or devotee of the Lord, has to be very tolerant. Someone may ill-treat him, because the conditioned souls are not prepared to receive the transcendental knowledge of devotional service. They don't like it; *that is their disease. The sādhu has the thankless task of imposing upon them the importance of devotional service. Sometimes devotees are personally attacked with violence. Lord Jesus Christ was crucified, Haridāsa Ṭhākura was caned in twenty*-two marketplaces, and Lord Caitanya's principal assistant, Nityānanda, was violently attacked by Jagāi and Mādhāi. But still they were tolerant because their mission was to deliver the fallen souls. One of the qualifications of a sādhu is that he is very tolerant and is merciful to all fallen souls. He is merciful because he is the well-wisher of all living entities. He is not only a well-wisher of human society, but a well-wisher of animal society as well. It is said here, sarva-dehinām , which indicates all living entities who have accepted a material body. Not only does the human being have a material body, but other living entities, such as cats and dogs, also have material bodies. The devotee of the Lord is merciful to everyone—the cats, dogs, trees, etc. He treats all living entities in such a way that they can ultimately get salvation from this material entanglement. Śivānanda Sena, one of the disciples of Lord Caitanya, gave liberation to a dog by treating the dog transcendentally. There are many instances where a dog got salvation by association with a sādhu , because a sādhu engages in the highest philanthropic activities for the benediction of all living entities. Yet although a sādhu is not inimical towards anyone, the world is so ungrateful that even a sādhu has many enemies." "What is the difference between an enemy and a friend? It is a difference in behavior. A sādhu behaves with all conditioned souls for their ultimate relief from the material entanglement. Therefore, no one can be more friendly than a sādhu in relieving a conditioned soul. A sādhu is calm, and he quietly and peacefully follows the principles of scripture. A sādhu means one who follows the principles of scripture and at the same time is a devotee of the Lord. One who actually follows the principles of scripture must be a devotee of God because all the śāstras instruct us to obey the orders of the Personality of Godhead. Sādhu , therefore, means a follower of the scriptural injunctions and a devotee of the Lord. All these characteristics are prominent in a devotee. A devotee develops all the good qualities of the demigods, whereas a nondevotee, even though academically qualified, has no actual good qualifications or good characteristics . . ." Where is this going on? (asking about banging sound) That's just the old reception room. What is it? They are making alterations. Alteration? What is that alteration? I don't know exactly what they're doing. No, what they're doing is that room, everybody goes there, the guests all go there. So in the past it's just been a big empty, wasted room. So now what they're doing is making it a big preaching room with photos all around and book tables set up in such a way that someone can just walk in that room and there's a whole exhibit for him to see. And even if . . . Who has gotten this idea? I think Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. It's an exhibition room. Then they are breaking wall, or what? No, no, they're not breaking. They made a big door so that you can walk straight in from the outside. You saw that door yesterday. Now what they're doing is they're building shelves and bookcases. Hmm. That sound is disturbing. Would you like them to stop it until you left? If stop, then how their work will go on? They manufacture ideas and spend money. This is the difficulty. Everyone manufactures some idea. And break it, do it, dig it. Money is coming, and they are spending it. They cannot adjust whatever is there. Big, big ideas. Big, big belly. And money we have to bring from America. "Give me one lakh , give me one lakh , 15,000. I make idea, you pay." So many rooms you can make showroom. Why breaking this door, breaking that door? Too many cooks spoils the broth. And repairing and, what is called, addition, alteration, will never stop. I do not know how to stop it. Now, the other, yesterday, that Viśvambhara said . . . you were here, no? Bisancandra said, suggesting there should be rack three feet high, seven feet high, this high . . . everyone will suggest. And spend money. Any friend, you bring him, he'll suggest so that you may spend it. And wherefrom money will come? "Oh, that is your look after. I am your friend, I am giving you good suggestion. Break it. Do it. I am your friend. You break your head." (laughs) There was a Muhammadan king, Raja Uddin or some . . . Nizamuddin. Nizamuddin there is a tomb in Delhi. He was poet. So if some friends come he would read some writing, and he will suggest, the friend will suggest, "Why don't you make like this?" "Oh, it is good. All right." He'll do it, whatever he says. And when he goes away, then again makes his own. So the secretary said, "Why you are changing?" "What can I do? Those associate . . . that is my friend. And that is nonsense; therefore I am again doing what I wrote." So we have to do that. As soon as you call anybody, he'll give you some suggestion, "Make this alteration, make this alteration." Hmm. (pause) So description of the sādhu is there. It is very nice. Where they will find this description all over the world? Hmm? I think there's only one person who's following that description. No, I say about Bhāgavata's description. How perfect it is in any subject matter. I have tried to explain what is there in the Bhāgavatam , expand it. That is not my explanation; *that is Kṛṣṇa's explanation. I cannot explain now. That moment I could explain. That means Kṛṣṇa's . . . I can understand that, that the description is very nicely given. Although it is my writing, but I know it is not my writing. It is Kṛṣṇa's writing. So we should read Bhāgavatam always. Nityaṁ bhāgavata*-sevayā (SB 1.2.18). We should not waste our time. So we have to check that closet. You can . . . "They say there is no . . ." (break) Then you are only intelligent. All are fools. That means you are fool number one. If you think like that . . . Yes, but in India . . . No, now you cannot say Indians. (laughs) Now we cannot say only Indians worship Kṛṣṇa. Whole world. That is God. They are not fools and rascals. They are educated, they are civilized. Why they accept Kṛṣṇa as God? Yesterday I was telling who? I think Caraṇam . . .? Caraṇāravindam. Caraṇāravindam, that the Englishmen were ruling over us. Now here is English boy, he's giving me massage and fanning me. What is the reason? Unless he feels something obligation that, "He has given us Kṛṣṇa," what business he has got? Not for him, for all of you, to give so valuable free service, unless there is this sense. What do you think? You have no obligation. You are European, American. I am Indian. It is through this via media, Kṛṣṇa. This is practical. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is God. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). Because they have got sense that "We have got God," therefore they are feeling so much obliged. Kṛṣṇa is God, there is no doubt about it. It is not yet ready? They're making a plate now. Viśvambhara is there? Yes. So we shall follow strictly. "Here is God. Take." Because if you are serious after God, "Here is God. Take Kṛṣṇa." This is our philosophy. Hmm? What is the answer? If he's serious about God. I think this paper wrote that, that Village ? "We thought God is dead." Greenwich Village. East Village? That paper? It's that paper in New York. Long ago. Village Voice . Hah. Village . . . The Village Voice . Ah, yes. They told first that, "We thought God is dead." And actually they were dancing in the name of God, Acyutānanda and Brahmānanda. You have seen the picture showing? In this French Back To Godhead . (showing picture) Oh, that's Acyutānanda too! Oh! They were the first candidates to dance with my kīrtana . I didn't know that was Acyutānanda. I recognize Hayagrīva but . . . That's not Hayagrīva, it's Brahmānanda. That's not Hayagrīva? No. Hayagrīva . . . It's a picture of Brahmānanda and Acyutānanda dancing, and Prabhupāda's playing on tabla, and there's Kīrtanānanda sat down on the corner. Boy, was he skinny in those days! This is Brahmānanda? And this is Kīrtanānanda Swami sitting down? Just Brahmānanda, Kīrtanānanda standing together. Acyutānanda. Oh, Acyutānanda. Acyutānanda. And Kīrtanānanda's sitting down. Kīrtanānanda's sitting there? Yes. He sat next to you. He's shaved up. They're so skinny. This was published in New York Times . New York Times ? With picture. The other picture was published in Voice, Village Voice , yes. Yes. Big picture. One page. They felt something—otherwise, why they should publish? Appealed to them, that "Here is God." This is really a historic picture. Underneath a tree I was sitting and speaking. That's all. And when I would come back from the park to my apartment, at least two dozen people will come with me. Like a Pied Piper. Huh? There's a story in the West about a man called the Pied Piper. He went to one place and played the flute, and all the children followed him away from the village. You're like the Pied Piper who went to the West, took all the children. If you know French language you can read it. He knows French. Ah, you know. What is written there? The article is by Hayagrīva, and the heading, it says, "Are you from India?" That was when he met you on the street. Yes, he first of all met me on the street and asked me this question. And I brought him, "Yes, I have taken one apartment here. You come here with me." Then I came back to show him the apartment. And from the next day they began to come, Kīrtanānanda and Hayagrīva. Second Avenue apartment? Yes. And this Umāpati. Then Satsvarūpa. They began to come regularly. Mukunda, you were already . . . Yes, Mukunda was before that. When was this, then, when Acyutānanda and Brahmānanda came? That was after . . . This was in the park, Tompkinson. That was after Hayagrīva and . . . No, simultaneous. This was the fall of 1966. October, maybe. Yes. I was going in the park on Sunday and began from three: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, that dundubhi . What is that, in the hand? *A tom*-tom. *Tom*-tom drum. *Tom*-tom. Yes. He's explaining why you came to America, and that in three years you spread the mantra all over the Western world. Yogeśvara has many pictures of this. I saw all of them once. He is good collector. (break) What is that reason? What is that reason? *To perceive things, and after that we can arrive at long*-term solutions. First of all, what is the problem and what is the solution? What is the problem that you require solution? Any problem which comes. No, what is that? That I want to know. Problem is of being happy in the world. These are vague terms. You must distinctly say that, "This is happiness" and "This is problem." What is your . . . what is the idea of happiness and what is the problem? That I want to know. That I'm not very much clear at this stage of life. Happiness . . . suppose if you can get a nice, palatable dish for eating, you'll be happy. But the dog also, if he can get some good eating, he'll be happy. So where is the difference between dog's happiness and your happiness? Happiness should be combined with mental peace. What is that mental peace? To rest in yourself only. Don't run after worldly things. Yes. But that is not possible for the animal. Therefore to remain happy within yourself, that is a prerogative of the human being. But we are not trying for that purpose. We are trying to be happy by eating, by sleeping, by sex or by defense. This is our platform of happiness. A dog cannot go to the restaurant, but a human being, if he goes to a restaurant and he can eat palatable dishes, he thinks he's happy. But what is that eating? In your standard you feel happiness, whereas on the street you'll find a pig, he's happy by eating stool. One man's food another man's poison. So eating happiness is there, but the standard different. Therefore this eating is common affair, and happiness derived from eating is as good by the dog as by the pig and human being. Your idea is clear. *So we should know . . . happiness is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā : sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyaṁ grāhyam (BG 6.21). What is happiness, that is beyond the senses. The sense happiness is there by the pig and the man. But his standard of sense happiness is different from the man's. Standard may be different, but the happiness derived from the subject matter is the same. There is no difference. So happiness lies above the senses, above our indriyanas . Hah. Happiness means spiritual happiness. That they do not know. Therefore I began my words that so long one is after material happiness he remains as an animal. . . . (indistinct) *Because the animal cannot derive spiritual happiness. They do not know. The man can know. Just like this boy, he's coming from very high family in America, but he's now happy in this way, by taking sannyāsa , giving up everything, living very plainly. He has got money, he has got beautiful wife, he has got beautiful home, everything. But he has given up. Not his example . . . in our country there were many many big, big kings, rājarṣis . Just like Bharata Mahārāja. He was emperor of the whole world. He gave up everything at the age of twenty*-four years—young wife, young children. There are many examples. So actually, we have lost our Vedic culture, the objective, and therefore we are suffering. Simply by holding meetings and . . . of course, these things will go on. Government has no other remedy by tax. Whether people are happy or they are unhappy, it doesn't matter. They have got the power, tax. Accha sir. (Okay sir.) the end of . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prasādam . Your ideas are superb. You remain in Mathurā? Yes, I am. Here is prasādam . Give. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- September 5, 1976, Vrndavana *(indistinct) . . . no, that is wrong . . . (indistinct) . . . sannyāsī should go on preaching, preaching, preaching, preaching. Practically, I was sitting here in Vṛndāvana, in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple. So at the age of seventy years, nobody goes out. At least from Vṛndāvana nobody goes at the age of seventy years. But Kṛṣṇa asked me. I thought that "I must go. Guru Mahārāja wanted it, Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . let me try." So if I had not gone, then this institution would not have developed. So this is practical. Mahataḥ nirvicaraṇam . Mahātmā , they must move. So when there is absolute necessity they may stay. Otherwise, they must move. Move on, move on, move on, move on, move on. No staying. That is principle. No staying. I am this old age, I cannot move . . . my . . . I . . . so many . . . still I am traveling all over the world. I am simply interested that whatever I have done, it may not be vanquished in my absence. Let me go and encourage them. Otherwise, I have no capacity to move now. But still I am moving, only for this purpose. Girinaṁ gṛhna-cetasam . So a sannyāsī must move. A sannyāsī must not stay anywhere more than three days. That is the principle. So he was moving, but his moving is creating disturbances here. Therefore I have stopped. And besides that, a temple is nirguṇa . A sannyāsī is forbidden to stay anywhere else, but in a temple he can stay for more than three days, provided there is business. Otherwise, there is no necessity. So this is the exclusion. That solves all the problems. *No, solves or not solves, we shall see later on. But this is the principle. This is the principle. Solution . . . if we do not become very simple servant of Kṛṣṇa, problems will increase. It will never be solved. If you have got any other desire than to serve Kṛṣṇa, then the problems will increase. It will never decrease. Therefore bhakti begins, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). No other purpose than to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is only purpose. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). So our only business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa in His original status as Kṛṣṇa, and in His other status as Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and in both ways, He's insisting to preach. That is a very important business. Neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu nor Kṛṣṇa has recommended that you become a great devotee and sit down in a place and talk big, big words and simply eat and sleep. Kṛṣṇa has never said. That is not Kṛṣṇa's, neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu's business. That is not required. Boro boro badorer boro boro pet, lanka dingate matha kore het. (Big big monkey, big big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy.) "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." There are very many big, big bellies in Vṛndāvana, but if they're asked to preach Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission all over the world—melancholy. Melancholy. Big, big monkey, big, big belly. So you have taken a very great mission that world preaching. That is very, very nice decision. So you have got buses and you have got capacity. You do this. And one in Germany, one in India, come and go, come and go. What do you think? Yes. Then I want to do that, but there are some problems which I'm experiencing. What is that? Well, for instance, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa has the habit of deporting my men to different centers, even against their will. I don't have that habit. Then the men . . . I explained the other night . . . Let him explain, don't . . . When we come to a center, naturally there are certain men who want to go traveling. Not all men want to go traveling, but there are definitely some who want to go traveling. And if they come to me, what should I do? Tell them, "No, I'm sorry"? No, no, traveling, if somebody wants to travel, what he is? First of all you must know. A brahmacārī , a sannyāsī , they are meant for preaching. Not gṛhasthas . No, not gṛhasthas . I'm not taking any gṛhasthas . So if a brahmacārī , gṛhastha , yes, if he wants to travel, so there is no objection. But what is happening is that, for instance, someone will join me, then Gopāla will catch up with him and send the man to Delhi or to Hyderabad. The man will run away and come back again, and again he will be forced to go away. This is what I object to. No, this is wrong. I'll tell you what the facts are. In every temple there are certain key positions for some devotee. In no temple we are trying to keep more men than necessary. Sometimes they come and he preaches to them and he gives them money. If he is the temple president . . . like in Bombay Haṁsadūta came, he had a fight with Girirāja. Girirāja was ready to write such a strong letter to you. He gave money to few devotees . . . The temple establishment, that has to be maintained. That I understand. Prabhupāda, I understand that. So why, why the . . .? Besides that, if you want to take someone or if anyone is willing to go with you, the president of the local temple, he should be requested. Or the man who wants to go, that "I want to go with him," so if the president thinks that he can be spared, then he can go. But if he thinks that his presence is necessary, why he should go? This is one of the GBC resolutions. No devotee can go without the temple president's permission. I understand . . . I cannot hear two. Let him . . . when I ask him . . . In this particular instance, and practically always, I do that. But Girirāja was so unreasonable about the matter that the boy actually ran away. No, no, that, that, there are so many people . . . if you do not satisfy his senses, everyone is free to run away. That you cannot check. You cannot say, accuse somebody or somebody. Because here everyone is giving voluntary service. Nobody is servant. So if he doesn't like something, at any moment he can go away. At any moment. Just like yesterday the Śāstrī came. So he went away. And somebody, they are coming, going. So you cannot check them, because they are not our paid servants. If they are very kind that they have come here, cooperating with us. But still there is some decency, if one is engaged in some work, all of a sudden he should go away, all of a sudden . . . that is not very good. That is not very good. Decently that, "I used to go, and now in preaching work, so there will be no difficulty," this is the arrangement. Something must be done. All of a sudden, if somebody goes, that isn't very good. Tamāla also, if he did so, that is not good. Because I want some men, I cannot kidnap from any place. That is not good. We must see that the management is going on, the management may not suffer. But the president should allow to go if there is extra men. Yes. Another point in this connection, Prabhupāda, the men who come with me, they don't stay with me forever. They will stay a few months some of them, and then they go. In this way . . . Then that is the habit . . . For instance, in this temple, there are so many men which are on our party who are . . . So many men. We don't want so many men. Now we are going to minimize. We don't want so many men. That if . . . now we have to estimate how many men absolutely required. So many men we shall keep. Others, they must go to the preaching. They must go to the preaching. They can all go on the buses, the extra men. No, they should be distributed. They may go to other centers. Hyderabad needs men. *Here, unnecessarily increasing men and increasing expenditure, twenty thousand, twenty*-five thousand, thirty thousand. Why? Unnecessary. Only minimum men should be kept who are actually useful. There is no need of keeping extra men. What is that? When you originally were speaking about Vṛndāvana, you mentioned that Vṛndāvana would be a place for those people who have become a little disturbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or burned out, we call it, from so much activity, that he comes here and gets rejuvenated here. Is that still . . . *That is a fact, but provided he is devotee. If he's not a devotee then he will go away, here and there, here and there. That is the habit. And a devotee is satisfied anywhere. A devotee is not that, "I'll go to Vṛndāvana, then I'll be satisfied." Nārāyaṇa*-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). I did not go to your country taking Vṛndāvana with me. I had to stay in places where in the refrigerator there is meat. And I was cooking. When I opened it I saw, "Here is meat. All right, what can be done? Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. But actually you did take Vṛndāvana with you. So if I would have stuck to Vṛndāvana, "No, no, I cannot go anywhere, leaving Vṛndāvana . . ." No, we can go to hell if there is Kṛṣṇa's service. So is there some time that maybe somebody could stay here when he comes in that frame of consciousness? No, no, it is . . . not that. It should be now restricted. Not that anyone comes and whimsically goes away. This should be restricted. These devotees just create a disturbance, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They don't want to be engaged, and everybody copies them and the whole atmosphere gets . . . No, no. A lot of devotees think . . . they come here . . . "Therefore work is not necessary. Simply chanting and being in Vṛndāvana is nice." That's wrong. *No, no. Chanting, but there is expenditure. Who will collect this twenty*-five thousand? It is increasing. We have one kitchen, as you said . . . *I can maintain them, provided they are actually serious about making progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not that some lazy fellow will come, and because he has come to Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa*-candra has become very much obliged to him. Kṛṣṇa-candra had no other friend. He has come from somebody. That mentality should be curtailed. What if he comes with money to pay for himself. Is there a guesthouse? Stay. There is no harm. There is guesthouse, he can pay and stay. But here we shall keep only minimum number of men without whom we cannot make . . . manage it. That's all. Very good. *Otherwise, how it is possible? Who will bring twenty*-five thousand per month? I'm surprised. Twenty-five . . . Pacchis hazar. (Twenty-five thousand.) It's much more. Sometimes thirty. *So this must be stopped immediately. We cannot pay more than five thousand. You stop. We cannot pay. Ye hona chahiye. Ye hona chahiye. Ye kya adda*-khana hai kya? (This has to be ensured. This must be ensured. Is this a place for having picnics?) My Guru Mahārāja used to say, Khawa-dawar adda-khana. (Eating and drinking club) "Joint mess." This is not possible, that we have to maintain a big bundle of burden. What is this? But still, we have to welcome anyone who comes. *Twenty*-five thousand, thirty thousand per month? What is this? Where is that temple in Vṛndāvana who is spending twenty-five thousand, thirty thousand? Can you say any temple? Not more than five thousand. That's it. So we cannot pay more than five thousand. For eating? Yes. Then clothing is more? Clothing is more? Maintenance? No, everything. Hundred rupees per head. You do not require to collect. I shall pay five thousand. Then there should be a budget here. Budget is there. Hundred rupees per head. Fifty men if you keep, it is five thousand. We can keep less. We don't want fifty. *That's all right. It will be less. But I'm prepared to pay you five thousand rupees for fifty men. Not more than that. That I can pay. You do not require to collect. You sit down, but work hard here. Not that eating, sleeping. No. That cannot be. That cannot be done. They must be engaged twenty*-four hours. That is wanted. It is not a lazy, a free hotel. Anyone lives, he must be engaged twenty-four hours. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). If he has no work, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa here. That should be done. *Śrīla Prabhupāda? We have the twenty*-four hour kīrtana. I've requested everyone who comes to do at least one hour per day. There is no question. This is the condition. Yes, I've made it a rule. *If you agree, then stay here. Otherwise, you go to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. Also visiting devotees should do that too. Anyone who comes here should do that. Everyone. You must make a rule. At least one hour in the temple. Why one hour? Four hours. Four hours. Four times. Morning, evening, night, morning again. Already the rule is made . . . No, no, already rules are . . . just like to continue kīrtana there must be four batches. Yes, four men I have . . . Four batches. That means six hours, four. Three hours. Three hours, not four hours. So one batch four hours. From morning six to nine. Another batch from nine to twelve. Another batch twelve to three. Another batch three to six. Again the morning batch six to . . . *Eight different batches, that makes a total of thirty*-two. *That's all. Not . . . why thirty*-two? Twice one batch. One batch attending once in the morning, once in the evening. *Sixteen. Solah admi. Char*-char admi ek batch me. Char batch banaye apne. Solah ho gaye. (Sixteen men. Four men will be there in one batch. You made four batches. So the total becomes sixteen.) So then if there is fifty men, we cannot spare sixteen men? Very nice. Everything is nice. Only to be managed. Yes, it has to be done. Only to be managed. So I am prepared, I'll pay you. Even if you have no money I'll pay you five thousand. Keep fifty men. I don't think it's necessary for you to pay. So if necessary, I'm prepared. That's all right. No, it's not necessary. Then thank you. That is another thing. But fifty men you can keep. Fifty men you can keep. And there is collection in the box. There is collection by prasādam, so many other things. And the altars. *So that should be engaged fully in Deity worship. Not extravagant. That I shall see. I shall remain here, how things are going on. I shall manage myself. I shall see how things are going on. So anyway, fifty men, five thousand. No more twenty*-five thousand. Forget. No more twenty-five. That's three rupees a day. What is that? *Three point thirty*-three. If it's three rupees, thirty paisa a day for eating, soap and toothpaste . . . *No soap. Take this Rādhā*-kuṇḍa's . . . why soap? You are so devotee of Rādhā-kuṇḍa, why you require soap? This is nonsense. You take earth from the Rādhā-kuṇḍa or Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana-dhūli. Why you require soap? Pundrah saal ho gaye, maine aj tak sabun nahi lagaya. (Fifteen years have passed but I have never used soap until today.) *Radha*-kunda wo jane wala hai aur sabun! Hum bol raha hai jo Radha-kund jane wala aur chahiye sabun! Lijiye. Ye bevakuf Radha-kund me jane wala hai. Ye narak-kund me jane wala hai. Jo narak-kund jata hai uske liye sabun zarurat hai. Radha-kund jane wala ko sabun kya zarurat . . . (indistinct) . . . (He is going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa but he requires soap. My point is that he needs soap for going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa? Just see. This fool is planning to visit Rādhā-kuṇḍa. He will go to hell-kuṇḍa. Those who go to hell-kuṇḍa require soap for bathing. What is the use of soap for someone going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa . . . (indistinct) . . .) Nim datun ? I was doing nim datun until the teeth fell down. You will know that I was collecting nim . But now it is impossible. That also I have manufactured my own toothpaste. I purchase only the brush, and I made my toothpaste at home. I never used any toothpaste. Even in my young days, I never used. You have seen it practically. Not only that now I have become sannyāsī . When I was gṛhastha I never used. When I was gṛhastha I was using that nim datun regularly. So we'll do, definitely. And I can give you the paste. The recipe. So if you cannot use nim datun, you can use this paste. Very simple. Bhagatji: . . . (indistinct) Kyu, batayenge kyu? Batayenge nahi. Wo humara secret hai. (laughter) So ye aisa karo ki bas ab ye sab . . . aur ye sab jo formula hai, jo manage kar sakega wo manager. (Why should I tell you? I am not going to tell you. It is my secret. (laughter) So do this then everything . . . and all these formulas, one who successfully executes them is a real manager.) Ab ho jayega . . . thik hai. Zarur. Ab ho jayega. Abhi hum log devotee kam kar lenge to ye sab . . . bahar ka koi rehne nahi denge kyuki bahar ka bahut log ate hai, kaam nahi karte. Ab ho jayega. (Now it will be done. Definitely. It will be done. We will now reduce the number of devotee . . . we will not let any outsider stay in the āśrama because then there are too many people staying here without doing any work.) Bahar ka kaun ata hai? (Who are these outsiders?) Devotee log ate hai, bahar ke visitors aur zyada kaam nahi karte. Unko bolenge chanting karna hai, kaam karna hai nahi to guest house me raho. Aisa karenge. Brahmachari ashram me jisko bhi rehne ka . . . (Devotees are there as well as other visitors who stay in the āśrama without doing any work. We will tell them to chant daily and render some service or else shift to the guest house. We will implement this. Whoever wants to stay in the brahmacārī āśrama should . . .) Bahar ka kaun ata hai? (Who are these outsiders?) Devotees, then visiting . . . *One problem is that these devotees who are not serious, we say they cannot stay here. Yet, because they are still attracted to Vṛndāvana, many times they go and find a place outside the temple in Vṛndāvana, and they make a bad example. This problem we cannot solve. Or they go to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa and live. We say: "You cannot stay here because you won't help in some way." Therefore they . . . No, cannot stay . . . you can allow three days free. Three days. Okay. You can receive guest for three days. Not permanently. And they can . . . that is very reasonable. If they have come, spending so much to Vṛndāvana, they cannot pay? They usually have money. Everyone who comes from America, Europe, has some money. Then? What is the difficulty? What is the difficulty if they have got money? See the shop here. See all the shop, whether they have got money or not. You have opened a canteen here, and you can note from there who has got money. No, money they have got. There is no doubt. They are not coming from poor country, either poor. No, we are welcoming, provided he is reasonable. Simply to exploit, that is not good. That is not good. What do you think? In our Indian system, if somebody goes to a sādhu's āśrama , especially gṛhastha , immediately he pays fifty rupees, hundred rupees. He'll not stay more than three days, four days. But he knows, "The sādhu , wherefrom he'll bring money? Take." They are paying without staying. Just like yesterday this man came, and you have seen so many people come. In your country also it is done. That is up to the man's conscience, that "I have come here, so I require to stay. Pay something." But not that . . . that should be properly expended. So anything can be done very nicely provided there is good management. I do not see any difficulty. Karo sab. (Do everything properly.) I am present here. If there is any difficulty, ask me. I shall advise. . . . (indistinct) Nahi, wo . . . ye to zarur hona chahiye . . . (No, at least this must be ensured that . . .) Per head hundred rupees is sufficient. Not more than that. Even . . . how many devotees are here now? We have sixty. About sixty. More than that. *Sixty, sixty*-three. There are many women over there. Usually there's about sixty. Normally there has been about . . . Up to fifty I take charge. I shall pay hundred rupees per head. We don't need more than fifty, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because Hyderabad needs devotees. If there are more, they can go to other centers. Now we have the farm in Hyderabad. Mahāṁsa's asking for men for the farm, for the temple. They can give . . . Yes, we have got the biggest farm. *Six*-hundred-acre farm. As we have organized New Vrindavan farm and Philadelphia farm, so the farm was also to be organized by you. That was the contemplation. So six hundred acres of land. Very nice land. Very nice land. Six hundreds, and it is not with . . . (indistinct) . . . like Vṛndāvana, but very fertile land. It can produce enough food to feed the whole society. Oh, yes. Irrigation system? Irrigation? Prabhupāda? Do you want me to take care of that scheme still? That would be best. Why not? The thing is, the money that I had put aside for that farm I gave to Mahāṁsa, so he should give it back. You should be very much encouraged. No, the money that I put aside to start that farm, to buy some irrigation equipment and so forth—initial investment—I gave it to Mahāṁsa on your order, one lakh of rupees. One lakh ? I gave him one lakh . This is for construction, and he's going to give it back. No, that is for construction. That is not for the farm. No, no, that money, I intended to use for the farm. But it took so long to get that farm. So when . . . you said that he should pay it back. No, that can be . . . that I guaranteed. That I guaranteed one lakh, that if he does not pay, I shall do it. That guarantee still. Should I develop that scheme there? Yes, let us have the farm first of all. I do not know what is the position now. It's coming soon, Mahāṁsa said. So he can develop the farm. *So your main business should be mahad*-vicalanaṁ . Calanaṁ vicalanam . It's just that in this one particular problem it would be better, that's all. He has already sent them away. He has already sent a number of men away. Who? And they are all the temple devotees. What I'm saying is don't rob men from these temples have to be supported. They're taking away men from the temples, and the temples . . . *I don't want to make a fuss, but right now there are six or seven first*-class men who are working in your temple who are on this party. Take them all, but still the temple will go on. He can take them. Take them out. That's what I'm afraid, that he's going to . . . No, no, no. Your men you take. I am only requesting you to return the temple devotees which you have stolen. That's all. I don't want men from this party. We will manage it. Just return the temple devotees. There are other men who are . . . (indistinct talking back and forth to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa) Yesterday I told him that temple painting is going on . . . who is painting? I never saw. *Nau baje se panch baje tak . . . (indistinct) . . . aat ghante . . . (indistinct) . . . nau baje shuru karte hai, wo roti*-woti khake ate hai aur panch baje tak karte hai. (From 9 am to 5 pm . . . (indistinct) . . . 8 hours . . . (indistinct) . . . they take a heavy meal before coming here and start work at 9 am. Then they work till 5 pm.) Upar me kaise karte hai? (How are they painting on the top?) Upar me tay kar liya, abhi niche ka aap a gaye hai . . . (That we have managed. Now you have come regarding the ground floor . . .) Niche kaha kar rahe hai? (Where are they painting on the ground floor?) Uss taraf. (On that side.) Haa? Uss taraf? (What? On that side?) Uss taraf . . . (There . . .) Backside me kyu? (Why on the backside?) Jaha prasad lete hai . . . (Where we take prasadam . . .) Accha. (Okay.) So we should have one kitchen only. One kitchen? As we had discussed last night. Now we have a Deity kitchen and a devotee kitchen. We also have a guesthouse kitchen. Why three? (indistinct comments by Bhagatjī) So the devotee kitchen and Deity kitchen could be made into one. That's decided. Yes. So I'll give you a list of the preparations we'll offer, for your approval. It means we'll be offering less to the Deity. What is difficulty? . . . un logo ka kharcha . . . (indistinct) . . . garland, sab iska kam se kam solah sau rupaya mahine ka kharcha hai . . . (indistinct) . . . pehle to do hazar tha. Maine unko competition karke panch sau rupaye less karke . . . (their expenditure . . . (indistinct) . . . minimum monthly expenditure for garlands is sixteen hundred rupees . . . (indistinct) . . . it was two thousand initially but I negotiated with them and reduced it by five hundred rupees . . .) Solah sau rupaya phool! (Flowers are worth sixteen hundred rupees!) Phool, mala, sab itna mahine ka . . . (Flowers, garlands, all together for one month . . .) Ye to murkhta hai. Nahi, ye jo pachas rupaya phool . . . ye jo pachas rupaya ka phool . . . (indistinct) . . . deta hai. (This is ridiculous. No, these daily flowers are worth fifty rupees . . . (indistinct) . . . they are giving.) . . . me deta hai. Phool lagte hai phool. (. . . they are giving. This many flowers are always required.) *Deta hai to Bhagavan ke liye phool liya jaye par ye humara sir me itna phool sajane ka kya zarurat hai. Bhagavan ke liye bas panch saat mala le . . . (Okay, let them purchase for the Deities but why decorate me with so many flowers? For the Deities, you can purchase five to seven garlands . . .) How many Deities are there? Guru*-Gaurāṅga, four; *Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma, two; six, and . . . Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā and the gopīs. Ten. So . . . *Chote Radha*-Krishna humare. (Our small Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.) *Char Radha*-Krishna, do Krishna-Balarama aur char Guru-Gauranga. (Four Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, two Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma and four Guru-Gaurāṅga.) *And small Deity of Gaura*-Nitāi, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Small deities are small . . . to garland kitna leta hai? (. . . so how much do they take for garlands?) Garland ka to . . . mala ke to har ek ka alag alag daam hai. Ek rupaye ki to gulab ki mala . . . (indistinct) . . . ek pichattar paise ki hai, tulsi mala ati hai wo sawa rupaye ki lagti hai. (Each garland has a different price. Rose garland is 1 rupee . . . (indistinct) . . . one is 75 paisa, tulsi garland is 1 rupee and 15 paisa.) Nahi, tulsi bhi nahi chahiye, gulab bhi nahi chahiye, aisi chahiye. (No, we neither need a rose garland nor a tulsi garland. This one is good enough.) . . . bahut sasti rahegi tab (. . . it will be very cheap then . . .) Ha, ek dum sahi . . . (Yes, perfectly fine . . .) (laughter) Bhagavan ke liye sugandhit phulo ki mala, malati ki, gulab ki . . . (For the Lord, we can take some fragrant flower garlands like jasmine, rose . . .) Kabhi kabhi lena, rozana nahi. (On some days you may take but not daily.) Bazar me ye sab phul hum apne aap kar lenge. Aap budget bata dijiye kitna rupaya kharch karna hai. (We will manage this purchasing of flower garlands on our own. Please tell us what your budget is.) Nahi, ye mala kitna ka hai? (No, what is the price of this garland?) Prabhupāda, ye to bahut sasti hai, ye mala to. (Prabhupāda, this garland is very cheap.) Bolo na. (Anyways, you tell me.) *Zyada*-zyada ek taka ki mala, pachas paise ki mala hai. (At the most, it will cost 1 rupee or 50 paise.) Pachas paisa? (Fifty paisa.) I don't think it is problem . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your idea? (break) (indistinct) . . . the CID is going to our Life Members and harassing them. "Why are you with them? How much are they paying you?" *They are scared of becoming our members now. Even in Chandigarh, Caitya*-guru told me your books were on display in one Life Member's stores—he has two stores—and CID went to him and said: "Why are you displaying these books? What's your connection? Why're you helping Hare Kṛṣṇa?" So selling books is illegal? No, but they are just suspecting, they're so suspicious. What is that suspicious? We have got books. We are selling. Yes. They . . . you know, because of those . . . now we can defeat them, because of that meeting with Defense Minister. . . . (indistinct) . . . but point is . . . Book sell karna ye koi crime hai kya? (Is book selling a crime?) Ha sab, ye koi crime nahi hai. (Yes, this is not at all a crime.) Ek admi humse kitab le . . . (If someone is taking a book from us . . .) They just harass us. They don't do any action. They just keep bothering us. Two CID inspectors came to my house. And they said they have got so many things in their basements. So I told, "You have come without informing me, and I was not informed them. So please come to me one day and decide what is it. You come back. You come with me." I took and I showed . . . Kya bola? (What did you say?) Sir, I showed everything. Wo hum log ke against me bada . . . (They are creating a big challenge for us . . .) (indistinct Hindi) . . . "You want to help me to go to materialism? . . . (indistinct) . . . they are not CIDs, they're not even anything. They are simply devotees. They have come from foreign country and they are . . ." No, the living is simple, then they will see, yes, that's simple . . . And where is the car you have purchased? It's in Indore now. Indian car. Where it is? Madhya Pradesh. I put one brahmacārī in charge of it. They are using? Yes, very well. They're preaching. Very good boys looking after. Dono chiz bahut labh ki hai saheb. Motorcycle hai court jane ke liye, bahar ke cooks lane ke liye, kisi ko bulane ke liye . . . (Both the things are very useful. The motorcycle is used for going to court, to bring cooks from the outside, call someone . . .) Ye thik hai. (That's alright.) It's a very good car, Prabhupāda. Jaya . Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Utsah hona chahiye. Hum log . . . ye to ek hi din me success nahi bana. Bada dhairya . . . ek dedh baras rasta rasta me ghuma aur wo visa department renew karte, (There has to be enthusiasm. We did not become successful in one day. Lots of patience . . . for one and a half years I had to roam around in the streets and the visa department would renew,) ten dollars. In Canada you had problem. I remember when you came to Montreal in '68. Oh, you did not know. Canada, I had very little problem. US, it was always problem. Rather, Canada helped me. Yes. Immigration you got. Canada, I immediately I got immigration in Canada. Then I got some standing, that "Never mind, I have got now immigration in Canada. It will be easier from Canada to go to USA." Then again I tried for USA. And it was obtained within three months, and spending only within hundred dollars. And there, in America, they were spending each time $150, the lawyer was taking. He was phoning, "Will you please send $150 for this expense?" And how many times he has taken I do not know. They were paying. Rāyarāma was at that time chief man. He immediately . . . this was going on. Then when I came to Canada . . . first of all, I made my position secure that, "Let me have Canadian immigration." So Canadian immigration I got very soon. I think within two months. Then I applied for USA immigration. So US immigration I got within three months. And I paid, I think, within hundred dollars. So . . . you know. When I came to Montreal? Very easy. Yes. You went for the interview with the US Consulate in Montreal before you got your green card for America. No, no. In Montreal went . . . Yes, you came from Vancouver . . . from Seattle. You came from Vancouver. You had an interview with one gentleman. *With Shasti*-mani. Yes. So there was hard struggle. It is not that so easy for . . . in 1965 to '66, 66, 67, regular hard struggle. Yes, I know that's a crisis. *You know that. Hard struggle. So Kṛṣṇa gave us some facilities. Now we have got some framework. Do it very cautiously. Unnecessarily exhausting what we . . . sato vṛtteḥ sādhu*-saṅge . That is Rūpa Gosvāmī's line. We should be very honest and live with sādhu , those who are devotees. Tāṅdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās . First of all our mission should be how to serve the Gosvāmīs. You cannot act independently. Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . *That should be our prayer. "When Rūpa Gosvāmī, who has established the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when I shall get shelter of his lotus feet?" And that is . . . Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura prays, tāṅdera caraṇa*-sebi . Tāṅdera means the six Gosvāmīs . Ei chay gosāi yāṅr tāṅr mui dās . "I'm servant of that person who is engaged in the service of the six Gosvāmīs." And we pray to our Guru Mahārāja, rūpānuga-viruddhāpasiddhānta-dhvānta-hāriṇe . Anyone who is going against the decision of Rūpa Gosvāmī, reject him. Rūpānuga-viruddhāpasiddhānta-dhvānta . This is our process. Ei chay gosāi yāṅr . *Who will understand Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's loving affairs unless one has gone really through the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī? Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa loving affairs is not so easy. Rādhā-kuṇḍa is not so easy that by force I go to Rādhā-kuṇḍa, I become a candidate. *Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is hankering, "When I shall understand about Rādhā*-kuṇḍa, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's prema ?" Such liberated great devotees, ācāryas , they are hankering. Rūpa-raghunātha-pade hoibe ākuti , kabe hāma bujhabo . "When I shall understand?" And they have understood immediately everything. Sab janta Lawrence. (The all-knowing Mr. Lawrence.) That is solved. Not so easy. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us the facility. *That is the special verse. It is not very easy thing. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Don't take things very easily. Things are very serious. Therefore we have to go step by step. That is, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, tāṅdera saṅge . Aim should be how to serve Rūpa*-Raghunātha, Rūpa-Raghunātha. And bhakta-sane bās , pure devotee, to stay with pure devotee who has no other intention. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). This is the process. So do it carefully. That's all. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) In the morning we shall go to take my milk from the booth. I'll go early so that I may take the first. Then come back, then take my bath early in the morning. I did not take hot water. Cold water. Even in severe winter. Hmm, then? *And one boy called Rādhā*-Dāmodara dāsa from New . . . did I mention this, or . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- September 5, 1976, Vrndavana *(indistinct) . . . no, that is wrong . . . (indistinct) . . . sannyāsī should go on preaching, preaching, preaching, preaching. Practically, I was sitting here in Vṛndāvana, in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple. So at the age of seventy years, nobody goes out. At least from Vṛndāvana nobody goes at the age of seventy years. But Kṛṣṇa asked me. I thought that "I must go. Guru Mahārāja wanted it, Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . let me try." So if I had not gone, then this institution would not have developed. So this is practical. Mahataḥ nirvicaraṇam . Mahātmā , they must move. So when there is absolute necessity they may stay. Otherwise, they must move. Move on, move on, move on, move on, move on. No staying. That is principle. No staying. I am this old age, I cannot move . . . my . . . I . . . so many . . . still I am traveling all over the world. I am simply interested that whatever I have done, it may not be vanquished in my absence. Let me go and encourage them. Otherwise, I have no capacity to move now. But still I am moving, only for this purpose. Girinaṁ gṛhna-cetasam . So a sannyāsī must move. A sannyāsī must not stay anywhere more than three days. That is the principle. So he was moving, but his moving is creating disturbances here. Therefore I have stopped. And besides that, a temple is nirguṇa . A sannyāsī is forbidden to stay anywhere else, but in a temple he can stay for more than three days, provided there is business. Otherwise, there is no necessity. So this is the exclusion. That solves all the problems. *No, solves or not solves, we shall see later on. But this is the principle. This is the principle. Solution . . . if we do not become very simple servant of Kṛṣṇa, problems will increase. It will never be solved. If you have got any other desire than to serve Kṛṣṇa, then the problems will increase. It will never decrease. Therefore bhakti begins, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). No other purpose than to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is only purpose. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). So our only business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa in His original status as Kṛṣṇa, and in His other status as Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and in both ways, He's insisting to preach. That is a very important business. Neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu nor Kṛṣṇa has recommended that you become a great devotee and sit down in a place and talk big, big words and simply eat and sleep. Kṛṣṇa has never said. That is not Kṛṣṇa's, neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu's business. That is not required. Boro boro badorer boro boro pet, lanka dingate matha kore het. (Big big monkey, big big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy.) "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." There are very many big, big bellies in Vṛndāvana, but if they're asked to preach Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission all over the world—melancholy. Melancholy. Big, big monkey, big, big belly. So you have taken a very great mission that world preaching. That is very, very nice decision. So you have got buses and you have got capacity. You do this. And one in Germany, one in India, come and go, come and go. What do you think? Yes. Then I want to do that, but there are some problems which I'm experiencing. What is that? Well, for instance, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa has the habit of deporting my men to different centers, even against their will. I don't have that habit. Then the men . . . I explained the other night . . . Let him explain, don't . . . When we come to a center, naturally there are certain men who want to go traveling. Not all men want to go traveling, but there are definitely some who want to go traveling. And if they come to me, what should I do? Tell them, "No, I'm sorry"? No, no, traveling, if somebody wants to travel, what he is? First of all you must know. A brahmacārī , a sannyāsī , they are meant for preaching. Not gṛhasthas . No, not gṛhasthas . I'm not taking any gṛhasthas . So if a brahmacārī , gṛhastha , yes, if he wants to travel, so there is no objection. But what is happening is that, for instance, someone will join me, then Gopāla will catch up with him and send the man to Delhi or to Hyderabad. The man will run away and come back again, and again he will be forced to go away. This is what I object to. No, this is wrong. I'll tell you what the facts are. In every temple there are certain key positions for some devotee. In no temple we are trying to keep more men than necessary. Sometimes they come and he preaches to them and he gives them money. If he is the temple president . . . like in Bombay Haṁsadūta came, he had a fight with Girirāja. Girirāja was ready to write such a strong letter to you. He gave money to few devotees . . . The temple establishment, that has to be maintained. That I understand. Prabhupāda, I understand that. So why, why the . . .? Besides that, if you want to take someone or if anyone is willing to go with you, the president of the local temple, he should be requested. Or the man who wants to go, that "I want to go with him," so if the president thinks that he can be spared, then he can go. But if he thinks that his presence is necessary, why he should go? This is one of the GBC resolutions. No devotee can go without the temple president's permission. I understand . . . I cannot hear two. Let him . . . when I ask him . . . In this particular instance, and practically always, I do that. But Girirāja was so unreasonable about the matter that the boy actually ran away. No, no, that, that, there are so many people . . . if you do not satisfy his senses, everyone is free to run away. That you cannot check. You cannot say, accuse somebody or somebody. Because here everyone is giving voluntary service. Nobody is servant. So if he doesn't like something, at any moment he can go away. At any moment. Just like yesterday the Śāstrī came. So he went away. And somebody, they are coming, going. So you cannot check them, because they are not our paid servants. If they are very kind that they have come here, cooperating with us. But still there is some decency, if one is engaged in some work, all of a sudden he should go away, all of a sudden . . . that is not very good. That is not very good. Decently that, "I used to go, and now in preaching work, so there will be no difficulty," this is the arrangement. Something must be done. All of a sudden, if somebody goes, that isn't very good. Tamāla also, if he did so, that is not good. Because I want some men, I cannot kidnap from any place. That is not good. We must see that the management is going on, the management may not suffer. But the president should allow to go if there is extra men. Yes. Another point in this connection, Prabhupāda, the men who come with me, they don't stay with me forever. They will stay a few months some of them, and then they go. In this way . . . Then that is the habit . . . For instance, in this temple, there are so many men which are on our party who are . . . So many men. We don't want so many men. Now we are going to minimize. We don't want so many men. That if . . . now we have to estimate how many men absolutely required. So many men we shall keep. Others, they must go to the preaching. They must go to the preaching. They can all go on the buses, the extra men. No, they should be distributed. They may go to other centers. Hyderabad needs men. *Here, unnecessarily increasing men and increasing expenditure, twenty thousand, twenty*-five thousand, thirty thousand. Why? Unnecessary. Only minimum men should be kept who are actually useful. There is no need of keeping extra men. What is that? When you originally were speaking about Vṛndāvana, you mentioned that Vṛndāvana would be a place for those people who have become a little disturbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or burned out, we call it, from so much activity, that he comes here and gets rejuvenated here. Is that still . . . *That is a fact, but provided he is devotee. If he's not a devotee then he will go away, here and there, here and there. That is the habit. And a devotee is satisfied anywhere. A devotee is not that, "I'll go to Vṛndāvana, then I'll be satisfied." Nārāyaṇa*-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). I did not go to your country taking Vṛndāvana with me. I had to stay in places where in the refrigerator there is meat. And I was cooking. When I opened it I saw, "Here is meat. All right, what can be done? Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. But actually you did take Vṛndāvana with you. So if I would have stuck to Vṛndāvana, "No, no, I cannot go anywhere, leaving Vṛndāvana . . ." No, we can go to hell if there is Kṛṣṇa's service. So is there some time that maybe somebody could stay here when he comes in that frame of consciousness? No, no, it is . . . not that. It should be now restricted. Not that anyone comes and whimsically goes away. This should be restricted. These devotees just create a disturbance, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They don't want to be engaged, and everybody copies them and the whole atmosphere gets . . . No, no. A lot of devotees think . . . they come here . . . "Therefore work is not necessary. Simply chanting and being in Vṛndāvana is nice." That's wrong. *No, no. Chanting, but there is expenditure. Who will collect this twenty*-five thousand? It is increasing. We have one kitchen, as you said . . . *I can maintain them, provided they are actually serious about making progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not that some lazy fellow will come, and because he has come to Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa*-candra has become very much obliged to him. Kṛṣṇa-candra had no other friend. He has come from somebody. That mentality should be curtailed. What if he comes with money to pay for himself. Is there a guesthouse? Stay. There is no harm. There is guesthouse, he can pay and stay. But here we shall keep only minimum number of men without whom we cannot make . . . manage it. That's all. Very good. *Otherwise, how it is possible? Who will bring twenty*-five thousand per month? I'm surprised. Twenty-five . . . Pacchis hazar. (Twenty-five thousand.) It's much more. Sometimes thirty. *So this must be stopped immediately. We cannot pay more than five thousand. You stop. We cannot pay. Ye hona chahiye. Ye hona chahiye. Ye kya adda*-khana hai kya? (This has to be ensured. This must be ensured. Is this a place for having picnics?) My Guru Mahārāja used to say, Khawa-dawar adda-khana. (Eating and drinking club) "Joint mess." This is not possible, that we have to maintain a big bundle of burden. What is this? But still, we have to welcome anyone who comes. *Twenty*-five thousand, thirty thousand per month? What is this? Where is that temple in Vṛndāvana who is spending twenty-five thousand, thirty thousand? Can you say any temple? Not more than five thousand. That's it. So we cannot pay more than five thousand. For eating? Yes. Then clothing is more? Clothing is more? Maintenance? No, everything. Hundred rupees per head. You do not require to collect. I shall pay five thousand. Then there should be a budget here. Budget is there. Hundred rupees per head. Fifty men if you keep, it is five thousand. We can keep less. We don't want fifty. *That's all right. It will be less. But I'm prepared to pay you five thousand rupees for fifty men. Not more than that. That I can pay. You do not require to collect. You sit down, but work hard here. Not that eating, sleeping. No. That cannot be. That cannot be done. They must be engaged twenty*-four hours. That is wanted. It is not a lazy, a free hotel. Anyone lives, he must be engaged twenty-four hours. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). If he has no work, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa here. That should be done. *Śrīla Prabhupāda? We have the twenty*-four hour kīrtana. I've requested everyone who comes to do at least one hour per day. There is no question. This is the condition. Yes, I've made it a rule. *If you agree, then stay here. Otherwise, you go to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. Also visiting devotees should do that too. Anyone who comes here should do that. Everyone. You must make a rule. At least one hour in the temple. Why one hour? Four hours. Four hours. Four times. Morning, evening, night, morning again. Already the rule is made . . . No, no, already rules are . . . just like to continue kīrtana there must be four batches. Yes, four men I have . . . Four batches. That means six hours, four. Three hours. Three hours, not four hours. So one batch four hours. From morning six to nine. Another batch from nine to twelve. Another batch twelve to three. Another batch three to six. Again the morning batch six to . . . *Eight different batches, that makes a total of thirty*-two. *That's all. Not . . . why thirty*-two? Twice one batch. One batch attending once in the morning, once in the evening. *Sixteen. Solah admi. Char*-char admi ek batch me. Char batch banaye apne. Solah ho gaye. (Sixteen men. Four men will be there in one batch. You made four batches. So the total becomes sixteen.) So then if there is fifty men, we cannot spare sixteen men? Very nice. Everything is nice. Only to be managed. Yes, it has to be done. Only to be managed. So I am prepared, I'll pay you. Even if you have no money I'll pay you five thousand. Keep fifty men. I don't think it's necessary for you to pay. So if necessary, I'm prepared. That's all right. No, it's not necessary. Then thank you. That is another thing. But fifty men you can keep. Fifty men you can keep. And there is collection in the box. There is collection by prasādam, so many other things. And the altars. *So that should be engaged fully in Deity worship. Not extravagant. That I shall see. I shall remain here, how things are going on. I shall manage myself. I shall see how things are going on. So anyway, fifty men, five thousand. No more twenty*-five thousand. Forget. No more twenty-five. That's three rupees a day. What is that? *Three point thirty*-three. If it's three rupees, thirty paisa a day for eating, soap and toothpaste . . . *No soap. Take this Rādhā*-kuṇḍa's . . . why soap? You are so devotee of Rādhā-kuṇḍa, why you require soap? This is nonsense. You take earth from the Rādhā-kuṇḍa or Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana-dhūli. Why you require soap? Pundrah saal ho gaye, maine aj tak sabun nahi lagaya. (Fifteen years have passed but I have never used soap until today.) *Radha*-kunda wo jane wala hai aur sabun! Hum bol raha hai jo Radha-kund jane wala aur chahiye sabun! Lijiye. Ye bevakuf Radha-kund me jane wala hai. Ye narak-kund me jane wala hai. Jo narak-kund jata hai uske liye sabun zarurat hai. Radha-kund jane wala ko sabun kya zarurat . . . (indistinct) . . . (He is going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa but he requires soap. My point is that he needs soap for going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa? Just see. This fool is planning to visit Rādhā-kuṇḍa. He will go to hell-kuṇḍa. Those who go to hell-kuṇḍa require soap for bathing. What is the use of soap for someone going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa . . . (indistinct) . . .) Nim datun ? I was doing nim datun until the teeth fell down. You will know that I was collecting nim . But now it is impossible. That also I have manufactured my own toothpaste. I purchase only the brush, and I made my toothpaste at home. I never used any toothpaste. Even in my young days, I never used. You have seen it practically. Not only that now I have become sannyāsī . When I was gṛhastha I never used. When I was gṛhastha I was using that nim datun regularly. So we'll do, definitely. And I can give you the paste. The recipe. So if you cannot use nim datun, you can use this paste. Very simple. Bhagatji: . . . (indistinct) Kyu, batayenge kyu? Batayenge nahi. Wo humara secret hai. (laughter) So ye aisa karo ki bas ab ye sab . . . aur ye sab jo formula hai, jo manage kar sakega wo manager. (Why should I tell you? I am not going to tell you. It is my secret. (laughter) So do this then everything . . . and all these formulas, one who successfully executes them is a real manager.) Ab ho jayega . . . thik hai. Zarur. Ab ho jayega. Abhi hum log devotee kam kar lenge to ye sab . . . bahar ka koi rehne nahi denge kyuki bahar ka bahut log ate hai, kaam nahi karte. Ab ho jayega. (Now it will be done. Definitely. It will be done. We will now reduce the number of devotee . . . we will not let any outsider stay in the āśrama because then there are too many people staying here without doing any work.) Bahar ka kaun ata hai? (Who are these outsiders?) Devotee log ate hai, bahar ke visitors aur zyada kaam nahi karte. Unko bolenge chanting karna hai, kaam karna hai nahi to guest house me raho. Aisa karenge. Brahmachari ashram me jisko bhi rehne ka . . . (Devotees are there as well as other visitors who stay in the āśrama without doing any work. We will tell them to chant daily and render some service or else shift to the guest house. We will implement this. Whoever wants to stay in the brahmacārī āśrama should . . .) Bahar ka kaun ata hai? (Who are these outsiders?) Devotees, then visiting . . . *One problem is that these devotees who are not serious, we say they cannot stay here. Yet, because they are still attracted to Vṛndāvana, many times they go and find a place outside the temple in Vṛndāvana, and they make a bad example. This problem we cannot solve. Or they go to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa and live. We say: "You cannot stay here because you won't help in some way." Therefore they . . . No, cannot stay . . . you can allow three days free. Three days. Okay. You can receive guest for three days. Not permanently. And they can . . . that is very reasonable. If they have come, spending so much to Vṛndāvana, they cannot pay? They usually have money. Everyone who comes from America, Europe, has some money. Then? What is the difficulty? What is the difficulty if they have got money? See the shop here. See all the shop, whether they have got money or not. You have opened a canteen here, and you can note from there who has got money. No, money they have got. There is no doubt. They are not coming from poor country, either poor. No, we are welcoming, provided he is reasonable. Simply to exploit, that is not good. That is not good. What do you think? In our Indian system, if somebody goes to a sādhu's āśrama , especially gṛhastha , immediately he pays fifty rupees, hundred rupees. He'll not stay more than three days, four days. But he knows, "The sādhu , wherefrom he'll bring money? Take." They are paying without staying. Just like yesterday this man came, and you have seen so many people come. In your country also it is done. That is up to the man's conscience, that "I have come here, so I require to stay. Pay something." But not that . . . that should be properly expended. So anything can be done very nicely provided there is good management. I do not see any difficulty. Karo sab. (Do everything properly.) I am present here. If there is any difficulty, ask me. I shall advise. . . . (indistinct) Nahi, wo . . . ye to zarur hona chahiye . . . (No, at least this must be ensured that . . .) Per head hundred rupees is sufficient. Not more than that. Even . . . how many devotees are here now? We have sixty. About sixty. More than that. *Sixty, sixty*-three. There are many women over there. Usually there's about sixty. Normally there has been about . . . Up to fifty I take charge. I shall pay hundred rupees per head. We don't need more than fifty, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because Hyderabad needs devotees. If there are more, they can go to other centers. Now we have the farm in Hyderabad. Mahāṁsa's asking for men for the farm, for the temple. They can give . . . Yes, we have got the biggest farm. *Six*-hundred-acre farm. As we have organized New Vrindavan farm and Philadelphia farm, so the farm was also to be organized by you. That was the contemplation. So six hundred acres of land. Very nice land. Very nice land. Six hundreds, and it is not with . . . (indistinct) . . . like Vṛndāvana, but very fertile land. It can produce enough food to feed the whole society. Oh, yes. Irrigation system? Irrigation? Prabhupāda? Do you want me to take care of that scheme still? That would be best. Why not? The thing is, the money that I had put aside for that farm I gave to Mahāṁsa, so he should give it back. You should be very much encouraged. No, the money that I put aside to start that farm, to buy some irrigation equipment and so forth—initial investment—I gave it to Mahāṁsa on your order, one lakh of rupees. One lakh ? I gave him one lakh . This is for construction, and he's going to give it back. No, that is for construction. That is not for the farm. No, no, that money, I intended to use for the farm. But it took so long to get that farm. So when . . . you said that he should pay it back. No, that can be . . . that I guaranteed. That I guaranteed one lakh, that if he does not pay, I shall do it. That guarantee still. Should I develop that scheme there? Yes, let us have the farm first of all. I do not know what is the position now. It's coming soon, Mahāṁsa said. So he can develop the farm. *So your main business should be mahad*-vicalanaṁ . Calanaṁ vicalanam . It's just that in this one particular problem it would be better, that's all. He has already sent them away. He has already sent a number of men away. Who? And they are all the temple devotees. What I'm saying is don't rob men from these temples have to be supported. They're taking away men from the temples, and the temples . . . *I don't want to make a fuss, but right now there are six or seven first*-class men who are working in your temple who are on this party. Take them all, but still the temple will go on. He can take them. Take them out. That's what I'm afraid, that he's going to . . . No, no, no. Your men you take. I am only requesting you to return the temple devotees which you have stolen. That's all. I don't want men from this party. We will manage it. Just return the temple devotees. There are other men who are . . . (indistinct talking back and forth to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa) Yesterday I told him that temple painting is going on . . . who is painting? I never saw. *Nau baje se panch baje tak . . . (indistinct) . . . aat ghante . . . (indistinct) . . . nau baje shuru karte hai, wo roti*-woti khake ate hai aur panch baje tak karte hai. (From 9 am to 5 pm . . . (indistinct) . . . 8 hours . . . (indistinct) . . . they take a heavy meal before coming here and start work at 9 am. Then they work till 5 pm.) Upar me kaise karte hai? (How are they painting on the top?) Upar me tay kar liya, abhi niche ka aap a gaye hai . . . (That we have managed. Now you have come regarding the ground floor . . .) Niche kaha kar rahe hai? (Where are they painting on the ground floor?) Uss taraf. (On that side.) Haa? Uss taraf? (What? On that side?) Uss taraf . . . (There . . .) Backside me kyu? (Why on the backside?) Jaha prasad lete hai . . . (Where we take prasadam . . .) Accha. (Okay.) So we should have one kitchen only. One kitchen? As we had discussed last night. Now we have a Deity kitchen and a devotee kitchen. We also have a guesthouse kitchen. Why three? (indistinct comments by Bhagatjī) So the devotee kitchen and Deity kitchen could be made into one. That's decided. Yes. So I'll give you a list of the preparations we'll offer, for your approval. It means we'll be offering less to the Deity. What is difficulty? . . . un logo ka kharcha . . . (indistinct) . . . garland, sab iska kam se kam solah sau rupaya mahine ka kharcha hai . . . (indistinct) . . . pehle to do hazar tha. Maine unko competition karke panch sau rupaye less karke . . . (their expenditure . . . (indistinct) . . . minimum monthly expenditure for garlands is sixteen hundred rupees . . . (indistinct) . . . it was two thousand initially but I negotiated with them and reduced it by five hundred rupees . . .) Solah sau rupaya phool! (Flowers are worth sixteen hundred rupees!) Phool, mala, sab itna mahine ka . . . (Flowers, garlands, all together for one month . . .) Ye to murkhta hai. Nahi, ye jo pachas rupaya phool . . . ye jo pachas rupaya ka phool . . . (indistinct) . . . deta hai. (This is ridiculous. No, these daily flowers are worth fifty rupees . . . (indistinct) . . . they are giving.) . . . me deta hai. Phool lagte hai phool. (. . . they are giving. This many flowers are always required.) *Deta hai to Bhagavan ke liye phool liya jaye par ye humara sir me itna phool sajane ka kya zarurat hai. Bhagavan ke liye bas panch saat mala le . . . (Okay, let them purchase for the Deities but why decorate me with so many flowers? For the Deities, you can purchase five to seven garlands . . .) How many Deities are there? Guru*-Gaurāṅga, four; *Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma, two; six, and . . . Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā and the gopīs. Ten. So . . . *Chote Radha*-Krishna humare. (Our small Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.) *Char Radha*-Krishna, do Krishna-Balarama aur char Guru-Gauranga. (Four Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, two Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma and four Guru-Gaurāṅga.) *And small Deity of Gaura*-Nitāi, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Small deities are small . . . to garland kitna leta hai? (. . . so how much do they take for garlands?) Garland ka to . . . mala ke to har ek ka alag alag daam hai. Ek rupaye ki to gulab ki mala . . . (indistinct) . . . ek pichattar paise ki hai, tulsi mala ati hai wo sawa rupaye ki lagti hai. (Each garland has a different price. Rose garland is 1 rupee . . . (indistinct) . . . one is 75 paisa, tulsi garland is 1 rupee and 15 paisa.) Nahi, tulsi bhi nahi chahiye, gulab bhi nahi chahiye, aisi chahiye. (No, we neither need a rose garland nor a tulsi garland. This one is good enough.) . . . bahut sasti rahegi tab (. . . it will be very cheap then . . .) Ha, ek dum sahi . . . (Yes, perfectly fine . . .) (laughter) Bhagavan ke liye sugandhit phulo ki mala, malati ki, gulab ki . . . (For the Lord, we can take some fragrant flower garlands like jasmine, rose . . .) Kabhi kabhi lena, rozana nahi. (On some days you may take but not daily.) Bazar me ye sab phul hum apne aap kar lenge. Aap budget bata dijiye kitna rupaya kharch karna hai. (We will manage this purchasing of flower garlands on our own. Please tell us what your budget is.) Nahi, ye mala kitna ka hai? (No, what is the price of this garland?) Prabhupāda, ye to bahut sasti hai, ye mala to. (Prabhupāda, this garland is very cheap.) Bolo na. (Anyways, you tell me.) *Zyada*-zyada ek taka ki mala, pachas paise ki mala hai. (At the most, it will cost 1 rupee or 50 paise.) Pachas paisa? (Fifty paisa.) I don't think it is problem . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your idea? (break) (indistinct) . . . the CID is going to our Life Members and harassing them. "Why are you with them? How much are they paying you?" *They are scared of becoming our members now. Even in Chandigarh, Caitya*-guru told me your books were on display in one Life Member's stores—he has two stores—and CID went to him and said: "Why are you displaying these books? What's your connection? Why're you helping Hare Kṛṣṇa?" So selling books is illegal? No, but they are just suspecting, they're so suspicious. What is that suspicious? We have got books. We are selling. Yes. They . . . you know, because of those . . . now we can defeat them, because of that meeting with Defense Minister. . . . (indistinct) . . . but point is . . . Book sell karna ye koi crime hai kya? (Is book selling a crime?) Ha sab, ye koi crime nahi hai. (Yes, this is not at all a crime.) Ek admi humse kitab le . . . (If someone is taking a book from us . . .) They just harass us. They don't do any action. They just keep bothering us. Two CID inspectors came to my house. And they said they have got so many things in their basements. So I told, "You have come without informing me, and I was not informed them. So please come to me one day and decide what is it. You come back. You come with me." I took and I showed . . . Kya bola? (What did you say?) Sir, I showed everything. Wo hum log ke against me bada . . . (They are creating a big challenge for us . . .) (indistinct Hindi) . . . "You want to help me to go to materialism? . . . (indistinct) . . . they are not CIDs, they're not even anything. They are simply devotees. They have come from foreign country and they are . . ." No, the living is simple, then they will see, yes, that's simple . . . And where is the car you have purchased? It's in Indore now. Indian car. Where it is? Madhya Pradesh. I put one brahmacārī in charge of it. They are using? Yes, very well. They're preaching. Very good boys looking after. Dono chiz bahut labh ki hai saheb. Motorcycle hai court jane ke liye, bahar ke cooks lane ke liye, kisi ko bulane ke liye . . . (Both the things are very useful. The motorcycle is used for going to court, to bring cooks from the outside, call someone . . .) Ye thik hai. (That's alright.) It's a very good car, Prabhupāda. Jaya . Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Utsah hona chahiye. Hum log . . . ye to ek hi din me success nahi bana. Bada dhairya . . . ek dedh baras rasta rasta me ghuma aur wo visa department renew karte, (There has to be enthusiasm. We did not become successful in one day. Lots of patience . . . for one and a half years I had to roam around in the streets and the visa department would renew,) ten dollars. In Canada you had problem. I remember when you came to Montreal in '68. Oh, you did not know. Canada, I had very little problem. US, it was always problem. Rather, Canada helped me. Yes. Immigration you got. Canada, I immediately I got immigration in Canada. Then I got some standing, that "Never mind, I have got now immigration in Canada. It will be easier from Canada to go to USA." Then again I tried for USA. And it was obtained within three months, and spending only within hundred dollars. And there, in America, they were spending each time $150, the lawyer was taking. He was phoning, "Will you please send $150 for this expense?" And how many times he has taken I do not know. They were paying. Rāyarāma was at that time chief man. He immediately . . . this was going on. Then when I came to Canada . . . first of all, I made my position secure that, "Let me have Canadian immigration." So Canadian immigration I got very soon. I think within two months. Then I applied for USA immigration. So US immigration I got within three months. And I paid, I think, within hundred dollars. So . . . you know. When I came to Montreal? Very easy. Yes. You went for the interview with the US Consulate in Montreal before you got your green card for America. No, no. In Montreal went . . . Yes, you came from Vancouver . . . from Seattle. You came from Vancouver. You had an interview with one gentleman. *With Shasti*-mani. Yes. So there was hard struggle. It is not that so easy for . . . in 1965 to '66, 66, 67, regular hard struggle. Yes, I know that's a crisis. *You know that. Hard struggle. So Kṛṣṇa gave us some facilities. Now we have got some framework. Do it very cautiously. Unnecessarily exhausting what we . . . sato vṛtteḥ sādhu*-saṅge . That is Rūpa Gosvāmī's line. We should be very honest and live with sādhu , those who are devotees. Tāṅdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās . First of all our mission should be how to serve the Gosvāmīs. You cannot act independently. Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . *That should be our prayer. "When Rūpa Gosvāmī, who has established the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when I shall get shelter of his lotus feet?" And that is . . . Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura prays, tāṅdera caraṇa*-sebi . Tāṅdera means the six Gosvāmīs . Ei chay gosāi yāṅr tāṅr mui dās . "I'm servant of that person who is engaged in the service of the six Gosvāmīs." And we pray to our Guru Mahārāja, rūpānuga-viruddhāpasiddhānta-dhvānta-hāriṇe . Anyone who is going against the decision of Rūpa Gosvāmī, reject him. Rūpānuga-viruddhāpasiddhānta-dhvānta . This is our process. Ei chay gosāi yāṅr . *Who will understand Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's loving affairs unless one has gone really through the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī? Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa loving affairs is not so easy. Rādhā-kuṇḍa is not so easy that by force I go to Rādhā-kuṇḍa, I become a candidate. *Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is hankering, "When I shall understand about Rādhā*-kuṇḍa, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's prema ?" Such liberated great devotees, ācāryas , they are hankering. Rūpa-raghunātha-pade hoibe ākuti , kabe hāma bujhabo . "When I shall understand?" And they have understood immediately everything. Sab janta Lawrence. (The all-knowing Mr. Lawrence.) That is solved. Not so easy. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us the facility. *That is the special verse. It is not very easy thing. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Don't take things very easily. Things are very serious. Therefore we have to go step by step. That is, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, tāṅdera saṅge . Aim should be how to serve Rūpa*-Raghunātha, Rūpa-Raghunātha. And bhakta-sane bās , pure devotee, to stay with pure devotee who has no other intention. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). This is the process. So do it carefully. That's all. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) In the morning we shall go to take my milk from the booth. I'll go early so that I may take the first. Then come back, then take my bath early in the morning. I did not take hot water. Cold water. Even in severe winter. Hmm, then? *And one boy called Rādhā*-Dāmodara dāsa from New . . . did I mention this, or . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- September 6, 1976, Vrndavana *Kṛṣṇa's bhakti*-nitya-siddha is already there. Otherwise it was not possible to become so successful in the foreign countries. They are not fools, accepting something bogus. Kṛṣṇa consciousness has succeeded amongst all kinds of religions. Hmm? It's succeeded amongst all kinds of religions, amongst all kinds of nations. Everything. All kinds of economic systems. *Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat ( BG 7.7): "There is nothing greater than Me." How anything can exceed Kṛṣṇa? That's all. You present Kṛṣṇa right, then Kṛṣṇa will exceed anything—any department of knowledge, any department of activity. Anything. Supreme, parataram . Para*-taram. Tara is used—superlative. If our men become serious to distribute . . . of course, it is not possible that the whole world will be Kṛṣṇa conscious, but at least they will know that there is such a thing. I may know at least there is diamond. I may not be able to purchase. That everyone can know: there is a very valuable jewel. Even though he has not seen it, still he'll appreciate that there is a very valuable jewel known as diamond. That much will also help. When he has got money, he can purchase it. (break) Because gentleman will come you have to break this wall. What is this nonsense? Yes, actually I didn't want it broken. You didn't know, but it is going on. Now they have to finish. Any rascal comes, he gives some order. This is the difficulty. Yeah. *Any rascal comes, he's a third*-class man, he gives some idea. I'm going to get this work finished today, definitely. He has no position; *he is third*-class man. He has given some idea, "Here, you break it." That is the nature. And how long this work will continue? Throughout the whole life? No. I'm going to finish it today. You say no, but it is going on. You simply say "No," "Yes," "No," "Very good." That's all. When I go away and I come back and the wall is broken, what can I do? Don't go. That's right. You don't manufacture idea. Don't allow others to manufacture ideas. Right, right. Simply manufacturing idea. I understand. In Bombay also they have manufactured idea. One hole, one lift. There is no need, and you have manufactured some idea. Very expert in manufacturing nonsense ideas. The thing is how to distinguish between what's a good idea . . . You have to take ideas from your guru . From intelligence. *Therefore gurum evābhigacchet . Why do you manufacture yourself? Consult the authorities, then do it. That is intelligence. Why do you think that you are very intelligent? That is materialism. The more you remain that, "I am a fool," that is good. And as soon as you become over*-intelligent, then, that's finished. So Europeans, Americans, they are over-intelligent. They have intelligence, over-intelligence. Unnecessarily. They manufacture a machine for shaving: gow-gow-gow-gow-gow-gow . (makes machine sound). (laughter) And they have wasted so much time. So much time. But people like it. Prabhupāda, if we don't use soap, the question has come up, how to wash the clothes? How to wash the cloth? If you do not use any soap, the question has come up, how to wash the cloth? By beating only? Sufficient? For washing cloth you require soap. But does not . . . you require everything, but because you are spending without any sense . . . so I calculated yesterday the whole thing, Deity worship, Deity pūjā , will require five hundred rupees per month. I had requested for the flowers . . . Viśvambhara said twelve rupees you had decided last night. Twelve rupees, thirteen rupees . . . Twelve, thirteen. Actually today, I wanted for today, but the flower man was not able to . . . we could not catch him in time. But from tomorrow it will start, definitely. The thing is that one who is cheating you, he will cheat in twelve rupees, also he will cheat in fifty rupees. Yes, I know. He knows how to cheat you. Yes, they're expert. Where do they get flowers? There are two flower men. They come here from Bankebehari. Now Viśvambhara has made two, because they make a competition between each other, and therefore they keep down. But . . . Nobody is honest. But still old flowers are coming. Still old flowers are coming. We're getting cheap, but old ones are coming. Brown flowers, old ones are coming. It's just by experience, Prabhupāda. Where they get flower? Wherefrom? The actual flower men? I don't know. In the market the flowers are not sold? I don't know. Viśvambhara said that this was the best. Viśvambhara is very expert. He's supremely expert at catching these cheaters. But even he gets cheated sometimes. Even things go by and he doesn't notice. He's very, very expert. If I ever get to be as expert as him, then maybe something good will happen. But even he is also being cheated sometimes. Cheating is one of the qualification of the conditioned soul. Prabhupāda, Viśvambhara . . . Vipralipsa , vipralipsa . Bhrama , pramada , vipralipsa , karaṇāpāṭava . So cheating is a qualification of the conditioned soul. Everyone is expert in cheating, more or less. That is qualification. People take pride, "Oh, I have cheated. I am so expert that I have cheated." When the lawyers make some agreement between the two lawyers, simply think, "How I can cheat you? How can I cheat you?" That's all. The more one lawyer is expert in cheating, he is big lawyer. Yes, because their business is to avoid the law. They are called lawyer, but their business is to break the law. Yes. The best cheater is the best lawyer. So that means if we become pure then we can avoid being cheated, because we ourselves will not cheat anymore. No, this world is full of cheaters. We have to live with them. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret . You also have to become better cheater. That is wanted. Otherwise, you cannot exist. But we have to cheat for Kṛṣṇa. Do everything for Kṛṣṇa, that is all right. But this world, if you become simple and the whole world is full of cheaters, then you suffer. You lose always. *Therefore you have to know and protect yourself from the cheaters. So sometimes we have to become a bigger cheater. This is the world. Vañcaka*-vañcī . Whole world is going on, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, that one is cheater, another is cheated. There's a saying in English . . . what is it? "Set a thief to catch a thief." The purport is that you have to think like a thief, then you can catch him, you can know what he's doing. Set a fish? Set a thief to catch a thief. Thief, oh, yes. You can reply him . . . (break) Those who are actually serious to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are welcome. *Pāpī*-tāpī jata chilo . *Yes. If he's serious to become free from this material world and go back to home, back to . . . you welcome him. We don't make any discrimination. Ābāla*-vṛddha-vanitā . Bāla means children, vṛddha means old man, and vanitā means woman. They are most helpless. Ābāla-vṛddha-vanitā. Vanitā . Beginning from the child up to the old man, and . . . but coming here, if they plan for sense gratification, that is very dangerous. Come here, stay with us. We shall somehow or other provide him with prasādam and place. But be advanced. And the simple method is recommended: Very simple thing. Yasyāṁ vai śrūyamāṇāyām . Simply hear *Bhāgavatam* . And actually if anyone seriously reads *Bhāgavatam* , he'll become saintly, no doubt about it. Your Bhāgavata . There are no others actually. Vyāsadeva, the words of Vyāsadeva, I am simply trying to explain, that's all. No one else is trying. No one else has done it. It is due to the blessing of my Guru Mahārāja. He directly told me that "If you get some money, publish some books." I took it seriously, so he's helping me. All our Godbrothers, they didn't take it. Did not know it, neither . . . even they . . . they know it. Because from the very beginning, Guru Mahārāja was serious about publication. He started press and published these books. This Bhāgavata was published by him. And the journal, six journals, he was very much fond of publishing, publication. Very, very. He told me directly that, "If it was possible to get the marbles from this Gauḍīya Maṭha and sell it and convert it into books, I would have done it. Because I know there will be blazing fire in this place." (break) . . . books. Yeah, I know. And by Kṛṣṇa's grace, by selling books we are getting. This is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise . . . this Bon Mahārāja is so proud of his institution. He could not do this. He could have done it. For the last forty years. *He does not speak kṛṣṇa*-kathā , Prabhupāda. So five thousand you have estimated for the Deities? Five thousand. For a month you have estimated last night five thousand? Five hundred. Five hundred. For all . . . Yes. For a month? With Viśvambhara you had discussed? Yes. Then I'll talk to him now. Just like we were going to, in the evening . . . don't divert attention. In the evening we have estimated four plates. Each plate, eight purīs. Six plates. *Six plates. Six plates, eight purīs , means forty*-eight purīs . Forty-eight purīs , Viśvambhara calculated the atta and ghee . Yes, you already made that estimate. Two rupees. Atta and ghee , two rupees. Then other preparation, another two rupees. He'll tell me everything, Prabhupāda. No need to . . . No, no, why don't you hear? I'm sorry. You are hearing now. Four rupees to prepare all the plates. Four rupees, say five rupees. So five rupees, monthly 150 rupees. So we are offering four times. So 150 rupees four times. Six hundred rupees. Six hundred rupees. So take another four hundred rupees, make one thousand. It should not go more than five hundred to one thousand. You spend it. But milk, when you cook down milk to make a sweet . . . I have taken from six hundred to one thousand. All the maintenance. I will take every item with Viśvambhara, every single item. You don't believe me? I can't understand. My intelligence is not great enough to understand it. I believe you, but I have to do it, that's all. It cannot go more than one thousand. I can't quite grasp it, Prabhupāda. But you say it can't go above five hundred, so that'll be it. No, no. Five hundred, that is rough calculation. But we add another five hundred, if there is any mistake or any error and omission. Therefore I have added another five hundred. That means a thousand. Thousand. That is sufficient. Maximum. Maximum. And you were speaking 9,000. This is for food. Food only. It is for Deity messing. Deity food only. Yes. So I am speaking of the Deity, not for all. For all others, hundred rupees per head, five thousand rupees. Here purī , kachorīs , and other things, all the best things. But general is not for purī , kachorī , and . . . they are general food. We are not going to supply purī , kachorī , halavā to everyone. No, never. Never have. Only for the Deity. Others are just dāl , sabjī , rice, cāpāṭi . Everything. Everything calculated. I believe you, Prabhupāda. But to make it practical I want to see every item. The cost, the weight and everything. It is already calculated. Then I can do it. Then we can do it. It is already calculated. I calculated, not with a fool, with an experienced man. I have one other question regarding . . . we are going to observe very strict policies. Unless somebody is working, he cannot stay in the temple. If some other tourist devotee comes from some other center, he can only stay for three days. But beyond that he should either pay or he should go and preach or do something else. Like some service. What should we do with . . . like there's some sannyāsīs here, like Yaśodānandana Swami and his party. I hear they're going to stay for the whole month. They're already here since two weeks. They're occupying two rooms, everything. They're going to stay here till the end of the month. Get him to go and preach for Vṛndāvana. *The only reason I'm talking this is because now it's really tight. We can't take . . . they have air*-conditioned room . . . Yes, they should go and preach and bring some collection. They're just relaxed, resting for a month. A month is too long, Prabhupāda said. Prabhupāda said three days a sannyāsī should stay, and then he should go and travel. The wheels should be turning. I'll talk to him. *Because this just adds up. A ten*-people party staying here for a month . . . Yes, they've always come, so there must be some control. Few men are here from Haṁsadūta's party who eat with us. All this just adds up, then our budget cannot be maintained. I'll preach to him. *Air*-conditioned room. That is another thing. They're our men. Yes. It's required. If anyone's ever done a big preaching program, he cannot . . . (indistinct) But one month . . . A month is a long time. Maybe a week. But a month . . . Yes. Week is sufficient. One month is too much. That is laziness. Residential. Laziness. So he was preaching in the South India, so why he came here? There was no resting place? He came here . . . actually, they're going north soon. They're going to be in Chandigarh when we're in Chandigarh. That is six weeks from now. That's all right. They're also going north and preaching, and he's having a very hard time getting his financial position down. And he has no men. Two, three, four men. He's having . . . How he'll return my fifteen thousand? That Mahāṁsa has taken. I do not know Mahāṁsa has taken. He has to return it. He never got it. And he wanted to join with Haṁsadūta, do some type of . . . (indistinct) . . . he's not in a very easy position right now. He could become a part of Vṛndāvana and take a team out of Vṛndāvana. I always wanted Vṛndāvana should have one bus. That is to say, if there is not too much endeavor to get one bus. There's so many buses are floating are through the air. Why could Vṛndāvana not have one bus? In that way they can always be just like Kīrtanānanda Swami. There is always saṅkīrtana going and coming, going and coming. And the same people . . . Ānanda Swami? Kīrtanānanda, in New Vṛndāvana. All his people, they must go out and do kīrtana and distribute books. They must. Everybody does it. In that way the . . . I'm told this, anyway. In that way the devotees are enlivened, and they don't become restless in the temple. Then the same ones . . . it's our bus, and they will come back to our temple. So we will not lose too many good devotees because they will not be attracted to go away on others'. So if we had one bus . . . Yaśodānandana Mahārāja, I will discuss with him. I already have. I'll just try to discuss it more. Gurudāsa Swami is coming to Vṛndāvana with a bus. He said he's going to give it to Vṛndāvana. And there's no need for me to go out. There's so many nice sannyāsīs . So many big preachers and so many buses. So if we just try it. *Īśvara*-candra prabhu has come from Mathurā. (break) When you will come to preach something? You take it from me. Last one and a half year I'm trying for something in Mathurā, but I'm . . . You are trying in your own way. But Kṛṣṇa does not like that program. You can manufacture your something, idea, but Kṛṣṇa will allow or not. I tell you. This is practical. You are a qualified man, foreign educated man, and you have come back for the last one and a half years, still you are in nothing. It is surprising. That means Kṛṣṇa does not want you to do that something. You take it from me. These boys have come because they found, outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness, life is nothing. That's a fact. Therefore they are sticking to this. They knew it very well, that outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness the whole world was vacant, "Nothing for us." That is a fact. Therefore they have got something here. They are not foolish rascals they're sticking for nothing. There is something. It's a fact. So for nothing, "Oh, we have suffered." And come to something, if you want. That's Prāṇava, he is trying for something. He has come also in Vṛndāvana more than one year also. Huh? Two, three years. More than that. Three and a half years. *And he's trying to do something. The same "something." He was at home, the same woman and same man. And again also here the same woman and man, and trying to do something. But he has no customer. He has only customer how to cheat these Europeans and Americans. Surmā (kohl) merchant. As if surmā is not available in the market. And he advertises "This is my special formula, and this is this, this is this. You take it and give me five hundred rupees and go away." He cannot sell outside. Otherwise, why he's sticking to Vṛndāvana? Thinking "The fools and rascals, the Americans are. I shall introduce." Kyu thik bola? Ye unka kaam chal raha hai. Humara to apna nahi hai je American ko cheat karke . . . (indistinct) . . . banaunga . . . (So, am I correct? This is going on. Our aim is not to cheat the Americans . . . (indistinct) . . .) That this material world has become nothing. You come to something now. Idhar raat me raho, jo kamra . . . (indistinct) . . . wo kamra de denge aur lo Bhagavan ka prasad, daal*-roti mil jayega khana, kaam karo. Kyu lehsun khate ho sab? Kya labh? . . . (Stay here tonight, that room . . . (indistinct) . . . will be provided for you, take the Lord's prasādam , chapati and dāl and work nicely. Why consume onion and garlic? What's the use?) If anyone wants to go to Bhagavān, then he has to make this material world voluntarily nothing. Niṣkiñcanasya . Niṣkiñcana means nothing. You understand, you translate. You know the meaning of niṣkiñcana . Kiñcana means "something," and niḥ means "not." Then nothing. So one who has made this material world as nothing. How it is made? Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Because with this something, as soon as one will stick to this something, he'll suffer. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because he has accepted this rascal situation, asat. Asat means either temporary or bad. Asat . Tum to translate karte ho. Asat ka arth kya hota hai? (You can translate. What's the meaning of asat ?) Temporary or useless. So this material world is . . . temporary, we can know it is. But it is useless, that we do not know. Therefore we struggle. "Let me go. Let me fight, fight, fight, fight." That is māyā . Gadha ko jaise ghas dikhata hai. (Just like they show grass to a donkey.) You know that? A man is sitting on the ass. And his hand just on the front of the gādhā , ass, he's putting some grass. And the gādhā is thinking, "I will eat this grass," so he's going forward. But the grass is also going forward. This is very instructive. The grass is, say, one feet above his head, and the man is sitting on his back. But because this gādhā does not know that "Actually, this man is sitting on my . . . as soon as I go forward, the grass also goes forward." But because he's ass, he does not know. He thinks that, "If I go a little forward I'll get the grass." But he has no knowledge that the arrangement is so made that as you go forward the grass also goes forward. Another example is that meerage. Myrage? There is no water. Mirage. Mirage. There is no water; *it appears there is water. And the animal goes forward and it goes forward, it goes forward. So this material world is like that. Ask anybody, any so*-called successful. Unless he's an ass, nobody will say that this is very comfortable. So best thing is to become niṣkiñcana . Niṣkiñcanasya bhāgavata-bhajana . . . this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. Bhāgavata-bhajana means niṣkiñcana . You make nothing this material world. That is real Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so long I'll make this material world something, then I'll suffer. Best thing is make it . . . just like Draupadī. Draupadī, when she was grabbed in the assembly and Duryodhana and Karṇa wanted to make her naked . . . so generally woman, if you try to make her naked she'll try to save herself. So she was trying to save herself, and when she thought, "There is no way. My husbands are here. They are not helping, and . . . so cloth is being supplied by Kṛṣṇa, but how long I shall?" No, before Kṛṣṇa helping, she was trying to help herself. But when she found that it is not possible, then (s)he did not try to save the cloth. (S)he said: "Kṛṣṇa, save me!" Two arms. You have seen the picture. And then Kṛṣṇa supplied cloth. So it is, "Go on, yes, Duḥśāsana, you go on. You try to make her naked. I'll supply." *So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, that one should, if one is serious about bhagavad*-bhajana , he should take it, whole material world, as nothing. Sometimes I think, "I made nothing this material world, and again retired in Vṛndāvana. Again, Kṛṣṇa, you have given so many things. What is the purpose?" At that time, I remember Rūpa Gosvāmī's instruction, "This is not mine. This is Kṛṣṇa's." Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgya . We are exerting so much energy to construct a temple, but as soon as we become implicated, "Now I have got this big building. Let me live very comfortably," then it is very dangerous. So long we work for Kṛṣṇa, it is Kṛṣṇa's, I am still nothing. And as soon as I take it, "Oh, now I have got very good, comfortable place. Make me again something," (laughs) take that as dangerous. Otherwise, there is no danger. Therefore we have to be engaged always in Kṛṣṇa's service. Not that, "Because we have got this nice building and income also, let us now sit down and eat." Then you'll stop. You shall have to be engaged always. Because our brain is materialistic, as soon as there is little chance of utilizing for sense gratification, mind: "Yes, yes. Do it." Still, we have to do it. *Rūpa Gosvāmī. Hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ . Things which are connected with Kṛṣṇa, you should never think it that it is material. It is spiritual. . . . Samajh me aya hai to ye sab nothing ko choro. Uska . . . (indistinct) . . . nothing jab hai to nothing hi kar do . . . "Ar na re baap!" (. . . if you have really understood, then give up all these things. Since your . . . (indistinct) . . . has ultimately come to nothing then leave that thing for good . . . "Not any more!",) Jagāi-Mādhāi . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him that, "You make this nothing, this sinful activity. Then I accept you." They promised, "Yes." That's all . . . (indistinct) . . . sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyaḥ (BG 18.66)." Kya ambition hai life me? (What is your ambition in life?) What is your ambition? Hmm? What is the ambition? Nothing is there. Huh? Then again nothing? There must be something. Why you are sticking to that company? There must be some ambition. I want to take care of my family what . . . (indistinct) *So how you can take care with nothing? If Kṛṣṇa makes you nothing, then how you can take care of your family? Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nārtasya ca . . . (SB 7.9.19). These things I have explained, that we have got so many means against struggle for existence, but that is not final. Tāvat tanu*-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām . If there is no sanction from Kṛṣṇa, you cannot do it. It is impossible. If Kṛṣṇa does not like you to be implicated in that way, that is false, then how can you do it? You are thinking that "I shall take care of my family." But if Kṛṣṇa wants that you cannot take care of your family, then how you'll do it? Can you go against the will of Kṛṣṇa? You can understand at least this, if not very much advanced. You cannot go against the will of Kṛṣṇa. So you have tried for the last one and a half years, you could not improve your material situation. That means you are going against the will of Kṛṣṇa. Take it from me. Kitne bacche hai? (How many children do you have?) I have four. Four. To jitne bacche idhar hai, usko do roti milta hai, dudh milta hai. Hum log bhi de sakte hai. Usme kya hai? (So all these kids here get milk and chapati daily. We can also provide. Where is the difficulty?) Separate. No more together. Phir panchva baccha ho jayega. (Then the fifth child will be born. Stop this. (Ajkal to government bhi mana karta hai. (Nowadays even the Government is forbidding people from having many children.) What can I do? (laughs) *Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). Everything is discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Kṛpaṇa , brāhmaṇa , kṛpaṇa , tṛpyanti neha . He knows that "One bāccā has given me so much trouble." Illicit or legal, . . . jo kuch hoye (. . . whatever is the case.) It is troublesome business. Otherwise, why these Americans and Europeans, they're killing their own child? They don't want to take the botheration. Abhi to India me waha tak pahucha nahi. Aste aste pahuch jayega. Ab to shuru ho gaya, zabardasti. To . . . (In India, things have not deteriorated to such a low level but it won't take long. It has already been started by force.) So it is botheration, there is no doubt about it. The Bhāgavata says, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ . The kṛpaṇa . . . Jo kripana hota hai. Kripana ka artha hota hai . . . (One who is a miser. The meaning of kṛpaṇa is . . .) What is the meaning of kṛpaṇa ? Do you know? Miser. Miser, what is the meaning of miser? He's got something but he doesn't want to . . . (indistinct) *Yes. We have got this something, human form of body, to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Instead of doing that, in spite of possessing this something, I am utilizing it for sense gratification. If you want sense gratification that's all right. Get one child, two child. Why again and again? Therefore śāstra says, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ (SB 7.9.45). Because he's kṛpaṇa , he's never satisfied. He's suffering—again, another child, again, another child. All right, you have got two child, one child, that's all right. Be satisfied. Why again and again? So kṛpaṇa . Kṛpaṇa , he does not know how to utilize this asset of human life. He's wasting the asset in a different way. Kṛpaṇa . One has to become brāhmaṇa . The opposite word of kṛpaṇa is brāhmaṇa. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). That is wanted. So we are giving brāhmaṇa's position. Instead of taking the brāhmaṇa position, if he wants to take again kṛpaṇa position, then what is the use of being initiated? All these great sages, saintly person, who were they? They were all brāhmaṇas . Brāhmaṇa . Śukadeva Gosvāmī is always addressed Brahman. Is it not? This is brāhmaṇa's business. It is not the kṛpaṇa's business. Kṛpaṇa's business means he does not know how to utilize the asset. *So Jab aya hai . . . (When you have come . . .) it is my duty to speak the truth. So now you can do whatever you like . . . give him prasādam . (break) . . . these words, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ . They have been described, it is just like . . . of course, it is very difficult, this itching. We have got practical experience. When there is some itching, we cannot stop it. We cannot stop it. Even if I do not want it, still . . . so it is like itching. Nothing more. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). The tapasya means how to control this itching sensation. This is tapasya . Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). Tapasya means, tapasya begins, now brahmacārī . That is tapasya . Tapasya means brahmacārī . Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena, tyāgena, satya-śaucābhyāṁ yamena niyamena . This is tapasya . It is very strong power, this . . . therefore Bhāgavata said that this power, sex power, is there in the hogs. They have no discrimination between mother, sister, daughter. And simply busy. The example is given. This capacity is there in the hog. Are you hog? How example is given. Do you like to remain like a hog? One should be saintly. Yes. Then where is the difference, I'm a human being? I am treating like hog. Therefore this very example. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujām (SB 5.5.1). This is for the hogs. This hog civilization is going on as human civilization. That is the difficulty. Whole world is hogs and dogs. Big, big United Nation, and what are the assembly? Hogs and dogs. The politicians, as soon as he gets some time for relax, immediately he becomes hogs: go to the hotel, prostitute, and drink and dance. Is it not? All politicians. You become a big hog. That's all. Without becoming politician, a small hog. Because they have got politi . . . big hog. It's terrible. So how you can expect prosperity from these big hogs? After all, he's hog. What benefit you can derive from this hogs, assembly of hogs, United Nation? United hogs. You cannot expect. He's hog. Now they're making propaganda for sterilization, and if we advise . . . Yes. I was just thinking about that. No, no. If we advise, make a brahmacārī-āśrama from the beginning, they will not take. "What is this nonsense, brahmacārī ?" Is it because they cannot? Do they reject it because they cannot do it? They can. They'll not accept the process. They can, everyone. Otherwise why these brahmacārīs ? Otherwise how we could . . . *Just to be trained. That's all. By training we can find so many brahmacārīs . Just like by training you have given up so many things. You were accustomed to this illicit sex and meat*-eating and . . . but you have given up. But why? By training. So if we request the government, "Let us open this brahmacārī . . ." they'll not help. But they'll make the other propaganda. They'll make contraceptive method. And naturally one Hindu widow is trained up not to marry again. Once she got a husband, that's all right. "Now you convert your . . . you divert your attention to Kṛṣṇa." They'll make propaganda, "Why stop her sense gratification? Let her marry again, widow marriage." Why widow marriage? If there is voluntarily giving up begetting any more child, to avoid husband, why the widow marriage bill is introduced? Everything was natural, brahmacārī. The sterilization is already there. That will not be accepted. Widow, she's remaining refrained from. Just like we have now asked our girls not to dress attractively, widow. They should dress not attractively. Because after all, what is this sex enjoyment? Finished. *It is not very good thing. By outward attraction they attract. Nice sārī, nice . . . (indistinct) . . . one becomes attracted. Therefore this is psychology, that if the woman does not dress very nicely, she will not be attractive. Unnecessarily attraction she will avoid. But a woman is naturally . . . her psychology is dress very nicely so that man may be attracted. Because they want shelter. This is the whole psychology. They, although they declare independence, they cannot live independently. That is not possible. Therefore they are by nature accustomed to dress attractively so that one may accept her and give her shelter. This is psychology. Otherwise, why the woman are naturally inclined to dress herself nice? Man does not. This is the psychology. A boy, sixteen*-years-old boy, he does not . . . he is roughly dressed, he does not . . . but a sixteen-year-old girl will never remain roughly. She'll always try to decorate herself very nicely and utilize her youthful beauty for attracting. Why attracting? Because she wants shelter. Therefore it is the duty of the father and mother that, "She is young girl, she wants shelter, and out of passion, lusty desires, her selection may be wrong. So before she selects out of her own way, let me—it is my duty, I am guardian—give her some good shelter." This is Hindu process. Perfectly natural. Very natural. But they say restricting. But they will say restricting, unnatural. *They may say, but this is natural psychology. Father, mother, they know, the well*-wisher of the children. Yes. Now everything is spoiled. But we don't care for this. We say take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything will be adjusted. By sterilization, Prabhupāda . . . when they perform some operation, that will also spoil their intelligence. Everything is spoiled. Because if the, as I have read, if the semina can go to the brain then there can be some intelligence, if even a little could go. Is it by sterilization no more can go to the brain, I think. So they have become bail (oxen). They've become like the bail. Nowadays boys are dull. Why dull? So dull in India. Everywhere. Because they discharge semina like anything. Must be dull. Yeah. And then by . . . Uddhareta . There is a word, uddhareta . Reta means semina. One who has learned how to divert the movement of the semina to the brain, uddhareta , greatest yogī . By yogic power they can do that. Instead of discharging, going down. So if they become sterilized, then there's no more possible for the semina to go up. Never again. No. Semina will not be produced. It cannot . . . therefore it cannot go, nothing can go to the brain. Therefore their brain is finished for life. It is the same . . . Anything you do artificially . . . It is just like making an operation on the brain. Sterilization is therefore the same . . . *The Kali*-yuga is . . . the material world is for suffering. Kali-yuga is more suffering. But it is not fault of the . . . just like this bābājī has been sterilized. Because the government knows, even the so-called sādhus and bābājīs , they are using their sex. Bābājī has been . . .? They are now being, forcibly being taken. Sterilized. Yes. Yes, I know. I heard about it. Because they are having sex. It is open secret. Because so many women go to hospitals, American hospitals. Oh, I know. The hospital men, they do not take it serious: "It is natural, a man and woman." But it is strictly forbidden according to spiritual life. By law the doctor has to perform so many operations in his day of practice, medical practice. One doctor came here, he was our member. He said: "I have to go back to practice now. I have so many cases, sterilizations, to perform in this day; otherwise I won't get paid." Hmm? "I have to make so many people sterilization. Otherwise, I will not get paid. I will not be able to live now, because I must perform so many." Large figure. I've forgotten how many. Maybe one dozen in one day. One dozen, fifteen in one day. He must perform, by law. Just see. Terrible. I often think it's like the bail. The bail, they have, with the bail gadi, and they cut. And the bail has no brain. He does anything you want. What's a bail? The oxen. And similarly the people now . . . (break) There must be a war very soon. It seems that there must be war very soon. War may happen very soon. There will be reaction. Such a transgression of the laws, it cannot . . . how much further can it go, Prabhupāda? There must be a war very soon. Any day. Yes. I think they cannot ask you for sterilization. You are foreigners. Ask us for sterilization. They can't sterilize us. Well, nobody's asked us yet. No, legally can they? By law, if you have three children. If you become Indian citizen, then. If you have three children in your family, then by law you must have it. So you have no children. "So let me produce first of all three children." Yes, right. That's what I thought. This argument. "First of all finish my . . ." I had two when I was married. That is now . . . But they are not here. They're not in the country. So, "We are sannyāsīs . We have no children. So why you are coming to us?" They've never come, fortunately. They can only do that to their own citizens. They can only do that to Indian citizens. Foreigners . . . So if I become Indian national, if I learn Hindi and become Indian national, then they will approach me? Yes. (laughter) That can never happen. *I just heard that seventy thousand women and thirty*-six thousand men. Nasbandi , they call it. Nasbandi . That was just in one state. In Delhi or U.P. or something. Nas means veins. Means? Veins, these, veins. Veins! I didn't know that. Bandi means stop it. Stop the vein so the semina will not go. Terrible. You're sure about that? Yes. They told you that's what they're doing. Stops you producing . . . they cut the tube that produces semina. I don't know where they do it. Some part of the body. It's somewhere near the testes. They cut the tube. It takes ten minutes. And it stops you producing any more semina. It's so bad. They give people . . . (break) . . . and eating so much nonsense. So the preaching in India has to be done very, very tactfully. No, just like I was speaking from *Bhāgavatam* . Just what you have spoken. But our actions must be very tactful also. If you speak only on the subject matter as it is mentioned in the book, it is already tactful. Jaya. But if we add something . . . *Now they are in a position of śoka*-moha-bhaya . So you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the best tact. Now it is the time. Now they are put into śoka-moha-bhaya . It is already there going on, śoka-moha-bhaya . But it is now special time for śoka-moha-bhaya . So you have to take it. It may be out of fear, bhaya , they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Still, they have to just take, that's all. *Yes. Catur*-vidhā bhajante māṁ janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna ārto (BG 7.16). Ārto . Ārtaḥ means who is afraid of. So this is the position of ārta , śoka-moha-bhaya . Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But that he can take, provided he is sukṛtina —if there is background. But still, by hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa he becomes sukṛtina . I think most of the devotees became by fear. I think most of the devotees have become devotees because of fear. Fear must be. If he's a gentleman he must be afraid of this material world. That is very good qualification. If one is afraid of this material existence, it is very good symptom. Just about every devotee, before coming to you, has thought about suicide. Suicide? Oh. So many, I know, I have spoken with them. And myself included. So many devotees, before . . . Yes, there was no hope. What is the use? Yes. Just about every devotee, they have thought of suicide. Yes, they commit suicide. I have seen. Fall from the . . . Skyscraper. Yes. Tower. Some have done. From the bridge. They have to put big wire screens up to stop people from jumping off. Yes, I have seen. Berkeley. Berkeley, yes. Everywhere. Sydney has bridges like that. These big towers like Eiffel Tower in Paris, they have big fences along the top so that no one can . . . This practice is there in Vedic system. Not Vedic system . . . (indistinct) . . . fall down. There is technical name. Fall down from the mountain. This is easier than other type of suicide. Because you simply once jump, but as soon as you fall, you forget everything. Suicide itself is very bad. This fall down, serotan it is called. *So one question I wanted to ask you in this connection is that this Vinoba, fasting until death, until cow slaughter is stopped. So if he dies, then he is guilty of murder. Is it correct? And if he's a brāhmaṇa , he is guilty of brahma*-hatya . So by this fasting he is committing a greater sin than the actual killing of the cows. You are right. And what is the gain? *And what he'll get it? Does he think that by his dying of starvation this cow*-killing will be stopped? That is his foolishness. He will die, and it will go on. Yes, that is his foolishness. And he does not know where he will go next. Just see, he is supposed to be very big man, and he's such a rascal. He has no sense what he is doing. Plainly you have described in the *Gītā* . You have described plainly in the *Gītā* . No one else has done that. Cinmayananda's, this, that rascal, no one has. No one has explained that. They don't know. No, anyone who is not in our disciplic succession, he's not a human being. Cinmayananda, Vivekananda, this- ānanda , they simply . . . ānanda —there is no ānanda . All nirānanda . What Cinmayananda? He is supposed to be very big sannyāsī . What he has done? What has he done? He advertised in the paper for young boys. There is one gentleman, Sadajiwatlal in Bombay. You know him? Sadaji Mahatma? Sadajiwatlal. Oh, yes. Chandu proprietor. I know about him. I know of him. *He . . . he is very intelligent. He has said to a friend that Bhaktivedanta Swami sabka muh kala kar diya. (Bhaktivedanta Swami has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) Kāla means that he has made all other so*-called sannyāsīs , yogīs , black-faced. (laughs) Jaya . He is intelligent. Bhaktivedanta Swami sabka muh kala kar diya. (Bhaktivedanta Swami has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) It's true. It's true. Now here is a big sannyāsī , Akhandanandan, or Bon Maharaja. They are supposed to be big, big sannyāsī . I do not know what Akhandanandan does. Anyway . . . (indistinct) . . . and this Anandamaya. Actually, I am not proud, but what they have done in comparison to me? Yes, they've done nothing. He has said . . . sabka muh kala kar diya, (has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) Mukāla . Kāla . Kāla means lajjita , black face. Everyone should be ashamed. They may be envious on account of their failure, but if you come to the actual valuation, sabka muh kala, (has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) That's a fact. Actually, that Bon Mahārāja is very black anyway. He's so black, there is no more black required. (laughter) A black snake. Kala brahmana, pota shudra . . . (Black brahmin , fair śūdra . . .) In Bengal it is said if a brahmin is black, he is dangerous. If a brāhmin is black? *That means he's not pure brāhmin . Brāhmin cannot be black. Just like a European, if he becomes black, that means he has mixture. European and American, if he's black, that means mixture. So brāhmin family, how it has . . . still, family, it must be very fair, śukla . Brāhmin , kṣatriya family must be very beautiful. If he's pure. Kala brahmana, pota shudra, bete musholman, khankir chele, poshya*-putro . . . (indistinct) . . . (black brahmin , fair śūdra , dwarf Muslim, prostitute's son, adopted son . . . (indistinct) . . .) It is a slang language. (laughter) Kāla brāhmaṇa . Brāhmaṇa should not be black, and śūdra should not be white. And a Musselman should not be dwarf. Because formerly, real Musselmens were coming from Kabul, Afghanistan. That is called . . . (indistinct) . . . if a Musselman is dwarf, that means he is not real. Khankir chele . . . (Prostitute's son . . .) Prostitute's son, and poṣya-putra , adopted son. They are all of the same class. How this selection? Black brāhmin , white śūdra , dwarf Musselman, and prostitute's son and adopted son. Adopted son, he gets money without any earning and spends like . . . I have seen so many adopted sons. Adopted son, oh. Yes. Just like our . . . Haṁsadūta's wife, what is name? She has adopted a son. Oh, Himāvatī. Himāvatī. It is not like that. But generally, adopted son means spoiled son. Spoiled. Spoiled brat. Because he gets money. Adopted . . . one who has got money but no children, he takes some adopted son. So the adopted son thinks that, "I have got so much money," and he has never worked. He is spoiled. I have seen many adopted son in our . . . got lakhs and lakhs of rupees, and in one night he's spoiled everything, simply after woman and wine. I have seen it. There was one gentleman, Narendranath Singh. Very big, palatial building and very rich man. And I have seen him when he was finished. He was friend of big, big person, Raja Maharlal. And one day I saw in Calcutta, in . . . (indistinct) . . . there was raining and he was sitting in a ricksha. And no friend. He had known practically all big men of Calcutta, friend. Nobody is coming. "Well, Narendra, you are sitting. Come on in my car." Nobody. I was . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was drenching, there was heavy rain. And sitting in a . . . and he was keeping Rolls Royce car. Keeping? Rolls Royce car. When he was rich man. Sometimes while traveling I've met some very old, rich men lying on their deathbed, dying. I approached them to help us. They will not give a single penny. It is all going to the son, and the son is atheist. In the house there is everywhere Kṛṣṇa's picture. Very difficult. They don't know that Kṛṣṇa is giving them a chance. They die; within days some of them can die. They are lying on the bed, passing stool and urine. So rich. But they do not care to help this movement. So many people like that. We have to become very expert. (end) Conversation A -- September 6, 1976, Vrndavana *Kṛṣṇa's bhakti*-nitya-siddha is already there. Otherwise it was not possible to become so successful in the foreign countries. They are not fools, accepting something bogus. Kṛṣṇa consciousness has succeeded amongst all kinds of religions. Hmm? It's succeeded amongst all kinds of religions, amongst all kinds of nations. Everything. All kinds of economic systems. *Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat ( BG 7.7): "There is nothing greater than Me." How anything can exceed Kṛṣṇa? That's all. You present Kṛṣṇa right, then Kṛṣṇa will exceed anything—any department of knowledge, any department of activity. Anything. Supreme, parataram . Para*-taram. Tara is used—superlative. If our men become serious to distribute . . . of course, it is not possible that the whole world will be Kṛṣṇa conscious, but at least they will know that there is such a thing. I may know at least there is diamond. I may not be able to purchase. That everyone can know: there is a very valuable jewel. Even though he has not seen it, still he'll appreciate that there is a very valuable jewel known as diamond. That much will also help. When he has got money, he can purchase it. (break) Because gentleman will come you have to break this wall. What is this nonsense? Yes, actually I didn't want it broken. You didn't know, but it is going on. Now they have to finish. Any rascal comes, he gives some order. This is the difficulty. Yeah. *Any rascal comes, he's a third*-class man, he gives some idea. I'm going to get this work finished today, definitely. He has no position; *he is third*-class man. He has given some idea, "Here, you break it." That is the nature. And how long this work will continue? Throughout the whole life? No. I'm going to finish it today. You say no, but it is going on. You simply say "No," "Yes," "No," "Very good." That's all. When I go away and I come back and the wall is broken, what can I do? Don't go. That's right. You don't manufacture idea. Don't allow others to manufacture ideas. Right, right. Simply manufacturing idea. I understand. In Bombay also they have manufactured idea. One hole, one lift. There is no need, and you have manufactured some idea. Very expert in manufacturing nonsense ideas. The thing is how to distinguish between what's a good idea . . . You have to take ideas from your guru . From intelligence. *Therefore gurum evābhigacchet . Why do you manufacture yourself? Consult the authorities, then do it. That is intelligence. Why do you think that you are very intelligent? That is materialism. The more you remain that, "I am a fool," that is good. And as soon as you become over*-intelligent, then, that's finished. So Europeans, Americans, they are over-intelligent. They have intelligence, over-intelligence. Unnecessarily. They manufacture a machine for shaving: gow-gow-gow-gow-gow-gow . (makes machine sound). (laughter) And they have wasted so much time. So much time. But people like it. Prabhupāda, if we don't use soap, the question has come up, how to wash the clothes? How to wash the cloth? If you do not use any soap, the question has come up, how to wash the cloth? By beating only? Sufficient? For washing cloth you require soap. But does not . . . you require everything, but because you are spending without any sense . . . so I calculated yesterday the whole thing, Deity worship, Deity pūjā , will require five hundred rupees per month. I had requested for the flowers . . . Viśvambhara said twelve rupees you had decided last night. Twelve rupees, thirteen rupees . . . Twelve, thirteen. Actually today, I wanted for today, but the flower man was not able to . . . we could not catch him in time. But from tomorrow it will start, definitely. The thing is that one who is cheating you, he will cheat in twelve rupees, also he will cheat in fifty rupees. Yes, I know. He knows how to cheat you. Yes, they're expert. Where do they get flowers? There are two flower men. They come here from Bankebehari. Now Viśvambhara has made two, because they make a competition between each other, and therefore they keep down. But . . . Nobody is honest. But still old flowers are coming. Still old flowers are coming. We're getting cheap, but old ones are coming. Brown flowers, old ones are coming. It's just by experience, Prabhupāda. Where they get flower? Wherefrom? The actual flower men? I don't know. In the market the flowers are not sold? I don't know. Viśvambhara said that this was the best. Viśvambhara is very expert. He's supremely expert at catching these cheaters. But even he gets cheated sometimes. Even things go by and he doesn't notice. He's very, very expert. If I ever get to be as expert as him, then maybe something good will happen. But even he is also being cheated sometimes. Cheating is one of the qualification of the conditioned soul. Prabhupāda, Viśvambhara . . . Vipralipsa , vipralipsa . Bhrama , pramada , vipralipsa , karaṇāpāṭava . So cheating is a qualification of the conditioned soul. Everyone is expert in cheating, more or less. That is qualification. People take pride, "Oh, I have cheated. I am so expert that I have cheated." When the lawyers make some agreement between the two lawyers, simply think, "How I can cheat you? How can I cheat you?" That's all. The more one lawyer is expert in cheating, he is big lawyer. Yes, because their business is to avoid the law. They are called lawyer, but their business is to break the law. Yes. The best cheater is the best lawyer. So that means if we become pure then we can avoid being cheated, because we ourselves will not cheat anymore. No, this world is full of cheaters. We have to live with them. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret . You also have to become better cheater. That is wanted. Otherwise, you cannot exist. But we have to cheat for Kṛṣṇa. Do everything for Kṛṣṇa, that is all right. But this world, if you become simple and the whole world is full of cheaters, then you suffer. You lose always. *Therefore you have to know and protect yourself from the cheaters. So sometimes we have to become a bigger cheater. This is the world. Vañcaka*-vañcī . Whole world is going on, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, that one is cheater, another is cheated. There's a saying in English . . . what is it? "Set a thief to catch a thief." The purport is that you have to think like a thief, then you can catch him, you can know what he's doing. Set a fish? Set a thief to catch a thief. Thief, oh, yes. You can reply him . . . (break) Those who are actually serious to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are welcome. *Pāpī*-tāpī jata chilo . *Yes. If he's serious to become free from this material world and go back to home, back to . . . you welcome him. We don't make any discrimination. Ābāla*-vṛddha-vanitā . Bāla means children, vṛddha means old man, and vanitā means woman. They are most helpless. Ābāla-vṛddha-vanitā. Vanitā . Beginning from the child up to the old man, and . . . but coming here, if they plan for sense gratification, that is very dangerous. Come here, stay with us. We shall somehow or other provide him with prasādam and place. But be advanced. And the simple method is recommended: Very simple thing. Yasyāṁ vai śrūyamāṇāyām . Simply hear *Bhāgavatam* . And actually if anyone seriously reads *Bhāgavatam* , he'll become saintly, no doubt about it. Your Bhāgavata . There are no others actually. Vyāsadeva, the words of Vyāsadeva, I am simply trying to explain, that's all. No one else is trying. No one else has done it. It is due to the blessing of my Guru Mahārāja. He directly told me that "If you get some money, publish some books." I took it seriously, so he's helping me. All our Godbrothers, they didn't take it. Did not know it, neither . . . even they . . . they know it. Because from the very beginning, Guru Mahārāja was serious about publication. He started press and published these books. This Bhāgavata was published by him. And the journal, six journals, he was very much fond of publishing, publication. Very, very. He told me directly that, "If it was possible to get the marbles from this Gauḍīya Maṭha and sell it and convert it into books, I would have done it. Because I know there will be blazing fire in this place." (break) . . . books. Yeah, I know. And by Kṛṣṇa's grace, by selling books we are getting. This is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise . . . this Bon Mahārāja is so proud of his institution. He could not do this. He could have done it. For the last forty years. *He does not speak kṛṣṇa*-kathā , Prabhupāda. So five thousand you have estimated for the Deities? Five thousand. For a month you have estimated last night five thousand? Five hundred. Five hundred. For all . . . Yes. For a month? With Viśvambhara you had discussed? Yes. Then I'll talk to him now. Just like we were going to, in the evening . . . don't divert attention. In the evening we have estimated four plates. Each plate, eight purīs. Six plates. *Six plates. Six plates, eight purīs , means forty*-eight purīs . Forty-eight purīs , Viśvambhara calculated the atta and ghee . Yes, you already made that estimate. Two rupees. Atta and ghee , two rupees. Then other preparation, another two rupees. He'll tell me everything, Prabhupāda. No need to . . . No, no, why don't you hear? I'm sorry. You are hearing now. Four rupees to prepare all the plates. Four rupees, say five rupees. So five rupees, monthly 150 rupees. So we are offering four times. So 150 rupees four times. Six hundred rupees. Six hundred rupees. So take another four hundred rupees, make one thousand. It should not go more than five hundred to one thousand. You spend it. But milk, when you cook down milk to make a sweet . . . I have taken from six hundred to one thousand. All the maintenance. I will take every item with Viśvambhara, every single item. You don't believe me? I can't understand. My intelligence is not great enough to understand it. I believe you, but I have to do it, that's all. It cannot go more than one thousand. I can't quite grasp it, Prabhupāda. But you say it can't go above five hundred, so that'll be it. No, no. Five hundred, that is rough calculation. But we add another five hundred, if there is any mistake or any error and omission. Therefore I have added another five hundred. That means a thousand. Thousand. That is sufficient. Maximum. Maximum. And you were speaking 9,000. This is for food. Food only. It is for Deity messing. Deity food only. Yes. So I am speaking of the Deity, not for all. For all others, hundred rupees per head, five thousand rupees. Here purī , kachorīs , and other things, all the best things. But general is not for purī , kachorī , and . . . they are general food. We are not going to supply purī , kachorī , halavā to everyone. No, never. Never have. Only for the Deity. Others are just dāl , sabjī , rice, cāpāṭi . Everything. Everything calculated. I believe you, Prabhupāda. But to make it practical I want to see every item. The cost, the weight and everything. It is already calculated. Then I can do it. Then we can do it. It is already calculated. I calculated, not with a fool, with an experienced man. I have one other question regarding . . . we are going to observe very strict policies. Unless somebody is working, he cannot stay in the temple. If some other tourist devotee comes from some other center, he can only stay for three days. But beyond that he should either pay or he should go and preach or do something else. Like some service. What should we do with . . . like there's some sannyāsīs here, like Yaśodānandana Swami and his party. I hear they're going to stay for the whole month. They're already here since two weeks. They're occupying two rooms, everything. They're going to stay here till the end of the month. Get him to go and preach for Vṛndāvana. *The only reason I'm talking this is because now it's really tight. We can't take . . . they have air*-conditioned room . . . Yes, they should go and preach and bring some collection. They're just relaxed, resting for a month. A month is too long, Prabhupāda said. Prabhupāda said three days a sannyāsī should stay, and then he should go and travel. The wheels should be turning. I'll talk to him. *Because this just adds up. A ten*-people party staying here for a month . . . Yes, they've always come, so there must be some control. Few men are here from Haṁsadūta's party who eat with us. All this just adds up, then our budget cannot be maintained. I'll preach to him. *Air*-conditioned room. That is another thing. They're our men. Yes. It's required. If anyone's ever done a big preaching program, he cannot . . . (indistinct) But one month . . . A month is a long time. Maybe a week. But a month . . . Yes. Week is sufficient. One month is too much. That is laziness. Residential. Laziness. So he was preaching in the South India, so why he came here? There was no resting place? He came here . . . actually, they're going north soon. They're going to be in Chandigarh when we're in Chandigarh. That is six weeks from now. That's all right. They're also going north and preaching, and he's having a very hard time getting his financial position down. And he has no men. Two, three, four men. He's having . . . How he'll return my fifteen thousand? That Mahāṁsa has taken. I do not know Mahāṁsa has taken. He has to return it. He never got it. And he wanted to join with Haṁsadūta, do some type of . . . (indistinct) . . . he's not in a very easy position right now. He could become a part of Vṛndāvana and take a team out of Vṛndāvana. I always wanted Vṛndāvana should have one bus. That is to say, if there is not too much endeavor to get one bus. There's so many buses are floating are through the air. Why could Vṛndāvana not have one bus? In that way they can always be just like Kīrtanānanda Swami. There is always saṅkīrtana going and coming, going and coming. And the same people . . . Ānanda Swami? Kīrtanānanda, in New Vṛndāvana. All his people, they must go out and do kīrtana and distribute books. They must. Everybody does it. In that way the . . . I'm told this, anyway. In that way the devotees are enlivened, and they don't become restless in the temple. Then the same ones . . . it's our bus, and they will come back to our temple. So we will not lose too many good devotees because they will not be attracted to go away on others'. So if we had one bus . . . Yaśodānandana Mahārāja, I will discuss with him. I already have. I'll just try to discuss it more. Gurudāsa Swami is coming to Vṛndāvana with a bus. He said he's going to give it to Vṛndāvana. And there's no need for me to go out. There's so many nice sannyāsīs . So many big preachers and so many buses. So if we just try it. *Īśvara*-candra prabhu has come from Mathurā. (break) When you will come to preach something? You take it from me. Last one and a half year I'm trying for something in Mathurā, but I'm . . . You are trying in your own way. But Kṛṣṇa does not like that program. You can manufacture your something, idea, but Kṛṣṇa will allow or not. I tell you. This is practical. You are a qualified man, foreign educated man, and you have come back for the last one and a half years, still you are in nothing. It is surprising. That means Kṛṣṇa does not want you to do that something. You take it from me. These boys have come because they found, outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness, life is nothing. That's a fact. Therefore they are sticking to this. They knew it very well, that outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness the whole world was vacant, "Nothing for us." That is a fact. Therefore they have got something here. They are not foolish rascals they're sticking for nothing. There is something. It's a fact. So for nothing, "Oh, we have suffered." And come to something, if you want. That's Prāṇava, he is trying for something. He has come also in Vṛndāvana more than one year also. Huh? Two, three years. More than that. Three and a half years. *And he's trying to do something. The same "something." He was at home, the same woman and same man. And again also here the same woman and man, and trying to do something. But he has no customer. He has only customer how to cheat these Europeans and Americans. Surmā (kohl) merchant. As if surmā is not available in the market. And he advertises "This is my special formula, and this is this, this is this. You take it and give me five hundred rupees and go away." He cannot sell outside. Otherwise, why he's sticking to Vṛndāvana? Thinking "The fools and rascals, the Americans are. I shall introduce." Kyu thik bola? Ye unka kaam chal raha hai. Humara to apna nahi hai je American ko cheat karke . . . (indistinct) . . . banaunga . . . (So, am I correct? This is going on. Our aim is not to cheat the Americans . . . (indistinct) . . .) That this material world has become nothing. You come to something now. Idhar raat me raho, jo kamra . . . (indistinct) . . . wo kamra de denge aur lo Bhagavan ka prasad, daal*-roti mil jayega khana, kaam karo. Kyu lehsun khate ho sab? Kya labh? . . . (Stay here tonight, that room . . . (indistinct) . . . will be provided for you, take the Lord's prasādam , chapati and dāl and work nicely. Why consume onion and garlic? What's the use?) If anyone wants to go to Bhagavān, then he has to make this material world voluntarily nothing. Niṣkiñcanasya . Niṣkiñcana means nothing. You understand, you translate. You know the meaning of niṣkiñcana . Kiñcana means "something," and niḥ means "not." Then nothing. So one who has made this material world as nothing. How it is made? Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Because with this something, as soon as one will stick to this something, he'll suffer. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because he has accepted this rascal situation, asat. Asat means either temporary or bad. Asat . Tum to translate karte ho. Asat ka arth kya hota hai? (You can translate. What's the meaning of asat ?) Temporary or useless. So this material world is . . . temporary, we can know it is. But it is useless, that we do not know. Therefore we struggle. "Let me go. Let me fight, fight, fight, fight." That is māyā . Gadha ko jaise ghas dikhata hai. (Just like they show grass to a donkey.) You know that? A man is sitting on the ass. And his hand just on the front of the gādhā , ass, he's putting some grass. And the gādhā is thinking, "I will eat this grass," so he's going forward. But the grass is also going forward. This is very instructive. The grass is, say, one feet above his head, and the man is sitting on his back. But because this gādhā does not know that "Actually, this man is sitting on my . . . as soon as I go forward, the grass also goes forward." But because he's ass, he does not know. He thinks that, "If I go a little forward I'll get the grass." But he has no knowledge that the arrangement is so made that as you go forward the grass also goes forward. Another example is that meerage. Myrage? There is no water. Mirage. Mirage. There is no water; *it appears there is water. And the animal goes forward and it goes forward, it goes forward. So this material world is like that. Ask anybody, any so*-called successful. Unless he's an ass, nobody will say that this is very comfortable. So best thing is to become niṣkiñcana . Niṣkiñcanasya bhāgavata-bhajana . . . this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. Bhāgavata-bhajana means niṣkiñcana . You make nothing this material world. That is real Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so long I'll make this material world something, then I'll suffer. Best thing is make it . . . just like Draupadī. Draupadī, when she was grabbed in the assembly and Duryodhana and Karṇa wanted to make her naked . . . so generally woman, if you try to make her naked she'll try to save herself. So she was trying to save herself, and when she thought, "There is no way. My husbands are here. They are not helping, and . . . so cloth is being supplied by Kṛṣṇa, but how long I shall?" No, before Kṛṣṇa helping, she was trying to help herself. But when she found that it is not possible, then (s)he did not try to save the cloth. (S)he said: "Kṛṣṇa, save me!" Two arms. You have seen the picture. And then Kṛṣṇa supplied cloth. So it is, "Go on, yes, Duḥśāsana, you go on. You try to make her naked. I'll supply." *So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, that one should, if one is serious about bhagavad*-bhajana , he should take it, whole material world, as nothing. Sometimes I think, "I made nothing this material world, and again retired in Vṛndāvana. Again, Kṛṣṇa, you have given so many things. What is the purpose?" At that time, I remember Rūpa Gosvāmī's instruction, "This is not mine. This is Kṛṣṇa's." Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgya . We are exerting so much energy to construct a temple, but as soon as we become implicated, "Now I have got this big building. Let me live very comfortably," then it is very dangerous. So long we work for Kṛṣṇa, it is Kṛṣṇa's, I am still nothing. And as soon as I take it, "Oh, now I have got very good, comfortable place. Make me again something," (laughs) take that as dangerous. Otherwise, there is no danger. Therefore we have to be engaged always in Kṛṣṇa's service. Not that, "Because we have got this nice building and income also, let us now sit down and eat." Then you'll stop. You shall have to be engaged always. Because our brain is materialistic, as soon as there is little chance of utilizing for sense gratification, mind: "Yes, yes. Do it." Still, we have to do it. *Rūpa Gosvāmī. Hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ . Things which are connected with Kṛṣṇa, you should never think it that it is material. It is spiritual. . . . Samajh me aya hai to ye sab nothing ko choro. Uska . . . (indistinct) . . . nothing jab hai to nothing hi kar do . . . "Ar na re baap!" (. . . if you have really understood, then give up all these things. Since your . . . (indistinct) . . . has ultimately come to nothing then leave that thing for good . . . "Not any more!",) Jagāi-Mādhāi . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him that, "You make this nothing, this sinful activity. Then I accept you." They promised, "Yes." That's all . . . (indistinct) . . . sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyaḥ (BG 18.66)." Kya ambition hai life me? (What is your ambition in life?) What is your ambition? Hmm? What is the ambition? Nothing is there. Huh? Then again nothing? There must be something. Why you are sticking to that company? There must be some ambition. I want to take care of my family what . . . (indistinct) *So how you can take care with nothing? If Kṛṣṇa makes you nothing, then how you can take care of your family? Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nārtasya ca . . . (SB 7.9.19). These things I have explained, that we have got so many means against struggle for existence, but that is not final. Tāvat tanu*-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām . If there is no sanction from Kṛṣṇa, you cannot do it. It is impossible. If Kṛṣṇa does not like you to be implicated in that way, that is false, then how can you do it? You are thinking that "I shall take care of my family." But if Kṛṣṇa wants that you cannot take care of your family, then how you'll do it? Can you go against the will of Kṛṣṇa? You can understand at least this, if not very much advanced. You cannot go against the will of Kṛṣṇa. So you have tried for the last one and a half years, you could not improve your material situation. That means you are going against the will of Kṛṣṇa. Take it from me. Kitne bacche hai? (How many children do you have?) I have four. Four. To jitne bacche idhar hai, usko do roti milta hai, dudh milta hai. Hum log bhi de sakte hai. Usme kya hai? (So all these kids here get milk and chapati daily. We can also provide. Where is the difficulty?) Separate. No more together. Phir panchva baccha ho jayega. (Then the fifth child will be born. Stop this. (Ajkal to government bhi mana karta hai. (Nowadays even the Government is forbidding people from having many children.) What can I do? (laughs) *Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). Everything is discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Kṛpaṇa , brāhmaṇa , kṛpaṇa , tṛpyanti neha . He knows that "One bāccā has given me so much trouble." Illicit or legal, . . . jo kuch hoye (. . . whatever is the case.) It is troublesome business. Otherwise, why these Americans and Europeans, they're killing their own child? They don't want to take the botheration. Abhi to India me waha tak pahucha nahi. Aste aste pahuch jayega. Ab to shuru ho gaya, zabardasti. To . . . (In India, things have not deteriorated to such a low level but it won't take long. It has already been started by force.) So it is botheration, there is no doubt about it. The Bhāgavata says, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ . The kṛpaṇa . . . Jo kripana hota hai. Kripana ka artha hota hai . . . (One who is a miser. The meaning of kṛpaṇa is . . .) What is the meaning of kṛpaṇa ? Do you know? Miser. Miser, what is the meaning of miser? He's got something but he doesn't want to . . . (indistinct) *Yes. We have got this something, human form of body, to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Instead of doing that, in spite of possessing this something, I am utilizing it for sense gratification. If you want sense gratification that's all right. Get one child, two child. Why again and again? Therefore śāstra says, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ (SB 7.9.45). Because he's kṛpaṇa , he's never satisfied. He's suffering—again, another child, again, another child. All right, you have got two child, one child, that's all right. Be satisfied. Why again and again? So kṛpaṇa . Kṛpaṇa , he does not know how to utilize this asset of human life. He's wasting the asset in a different way. Kṛpaṇa . One has to become brāhmaṇa . The opposite word of kṛpaṇa is brāhmaṇa. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). That is wanted. So we are giving brāhmaṇa's position. Instead of taking the brāhmaṇa position, if he wants to take again kṛpaṇa position, then what is the use of being initiated? All these great sages, saintly person, who were they? They were all brāhmaṇas . Brāhmaṇa . Śukadeva Gosvāmī is always addressed Brahman. Is it not? This is brāhmaṇa's business. It is not the kṛpaṇa's business. Kṛpaṇa's business means he does not know how to utilize the asset. *So Jab aya hai . . . (When you have come . . .) it is my duty to speak the truth. So now you can do whatever you like . . . give him prasādam . (break) . . . these words, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ . They have been described, it is just like . . . of course, it is very difficult, this itching. We have got practical experience. When there is some itching, we cannot stop it. We cannot stop it. Even if I do not want it, still . . . so it is like itching. Nothing more. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). The tapasya means how to control this itching sensation. This is tapasya . Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). Tapasya means, tapasya begins, now brahmacārī . That is tapasya . Tapasya means brahmacārī . Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena, tyāgena, satya-śaucābhyāṁ yamena niyamena . This is tapasya . It is very strong power, this . . . therefore Bhāgavata said that this power, sex power, is there in the hogs. They have no discrimination between mother, sister, daughter. And simply busy. The example is given. This capacity is there in the hog. Are you hog? How example is given. Do you like to remain like a hog? One should be saintly. Yes. Then where is the difference, I'm a human being? I am treating like hog. Therefore this very example. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujām (SB 5.5.1). This is for the hogs. This hog civilization is going on as human civilization. That is the difficulty. Whole world is hogs and dogs. Big, big United Nation, and what are the assembly? Hogs and dogs. The politicians, as soon as he gets some time for relax, immediately he becomes hogs: go to the hotel, prostitute, and drink and dance. Is it not? All politicians. You become a big hog. That's all. Without becoming politician, a small hog. Because they have got politi . . . big hog. It's terrible. So how you can expect prosperity from these big hogs? After all, he's hog. What benefit you can derive from this hogs, assembly of hogs, United Nation? United hogs. You cannot expect. He's hog. Now they're making propaganda for sterilization, and if we advise . . . Yes. I was just thinking about that. No, no. If we advise, make a brahmacārī-āśrama from the beginning, they will not take. "What is this nonsense, brahmacārī ?" Is it because they cannot? Do they reject it because they cannot do it? They can. They'll not accept the process. They can, everyone. Otherwise why these brahmacārīs ? Otherwise how we could . . . *Just to be trained. That's all. By training we can find so many brahmacārīs . Just like by training you have given up so many things. You were accustomed to this illicit sex and meat*-eating and . . . but you have given up. But why? By training. So if we request the government, "Let us open this brahmacārī . . ." they'll not help. But they'll make the other propaganda. They'll make contraceptive method. And naturally one Hindu widow is trained up not to marry again. Once she got a husband, that's all right. "Now you convert your . . . you divert your attention to Kṛṣṇa." They'll make propaganda, "Why stop her sense gratification? Let her marry again, widow marriage." Why widow marriage? If there is voluntarily giving up begetting any more child, to avoid husband, why the widow marriage bill is introduced? Everything was natural, brahmacārī. The sterilization is already there. That will not be accepted. Widow, she's remaining refrained from. Just like we have now asked our girls not to dress attractively, widow. They should dress not attractively. Because after all, what is this sex enjoyment? Finished. *It is not very good thing. By outward attraction they attract. Nice sārī, nice . . . (indistinct) . . . one becomes attracted. Therefore this is psychology, that if the woman does not dress very nicely, she will not be attractive. Unnecessarily attraction she will avoid. But a woman is naturally . . . her psychology is dress very nicely so that man may be attracted. Because they want shelter. This is the whole psychology. They, although they declare independence, they cannot live independently. That is not possible. Therefore they are by nature accustomed to dress attractively so that one may accept her and give her shelter. This is psychology. Otherwise, why the woman are naturally inclined to dress herself nice? Man does not. This is the psychology. A boy, sixteen*-years-old boy, he does not . . . he is roughly dressed, he does not . . . but a sixteen-year-old girl will never remain roughly. She'll always try to decorate herself very nicely and utilize her youthful beauty for attracting. Why attracting? Because she wants shelter. Therefore it is the duty of the father and mother that, "She is young girl, she wants shelter, and out of passion, lusty desires, her selection may be wrong. So before she selects out of her own way, let me—it is my duty, I am guardian—give her some good shelter." This is Hindu process. Perfectly natural. Very natural. But they say restricting. But they will say restricting, unnatural. *They may say, but this is natural psychology. Father, mother, they know, the well*-wisher of the children. Yes. Now everything is spoiled. But we don't care for this. We say take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything will be adjusted. By sterilization, Prabhupāda . . . when they perform some operation, that will also spoil their intelligence. Everything is spoiled. Because if the, as I have read, if the semina can go to the brain then there can be some intelligence, if even a little could go. Is it by sterilization no more can go to the brain, I think. So they have become bail (oxen). They've become like the bail. Nowadays boys are dull. Why dull? So dull in India. Everywhere. Because they discharge semina like anything. Must be dull. Yeah. And then by . . . Uddhareta . There is a word, uddhareta . Reta means semina. One who has learned how to divert the movement of the semina to the brain, uddhareta , greatest yogī . By yogic power they can do that. Instead of discharging, going down. So if they become sterilized, then there's no more possible for the semina to go up. Never again. No. Semina will not be produced. It cannot . . . therefore it cannot go, nothing can go to the brain. Therefore their brain is finished for life. It is the same . . . Anything you do artificially . . . It is just like making an operation on the brain. Sterilization is therefore the same . . . *The Kali*-yuga is . . . the material world is for suffering. Kali-yuga is more suffering. But it is not fault of the . . . just like this bābājī has been sterilized. Because the government knows, even the so-called sādhus and bābājīs , they are using their sex. Bābājī has been . . .? They are now being, forcibly being taken. Sterilized. Yes. Yes, I know. I heard about it. Because they are having sex. It is open secret. Because so many women go to hospitals, American hospitals. Oh, I know. The hospital men, they do not take it serious: "It is natural, a man and woman." But it is strictly forbidden according to spiritual life. By law the doctor has to perform so many operations in his day of practice, medical practice. One doctor came here, he was our member. He said: "I have to go back to practice now. I have so many cases, sterilizations, to perform in this day; otherwise I won't get paid." Hmm? "I have to make so many people sterilization. Otherwise, I will not get paid. I will not be able to live now, because I must perform so many." Large figure. I've forgotten how many. Maybe one dozen in one day. One dozen, fifteen in one day. He must perform, by law. Just see. Terrible. I often think it's like the bail. The bail, they have, with the bail gadi, and they cut. And the bail has no brain. He does anything you want. What's a bail? The oxen. And similarly the people now . . . (break) There must be a war very soon. It seems that there must be war very soon. War may happen very soon. There will be reaction. Such a transgression of the laws, it cannot . . . how much further can it go, Prabhupāda? There must be a war very soon. Any day. Yes. I think they cannot ask you for sterilization. You are foreigners. Ask us for sterilization. They can't sterilize us. Well, nobody's asked us yet. No, legally can they? By law, if you have three children. If you become Indian citizen, then. If you have three children in your family, then by law you must have it. So you have no children. "So let me produce first of all three children." Yes, right. That's what I thought. This argument. "First of all finish my . . ." I had two when I was married. That is now . . . But they are not here. They're not in the country. So, "We are sannyāsīs . We have no children. So why you are coming to us?" They've never come, fortunately. They can only do that to their own citizens. They can only do that to Indian citizens. Foreigners . . . So if I become Indian national, if I learn Hindi and become Indian national, then they will approach me? Yes. (laughter) That can never happen. *I just heard that seventy thousand women and thirty*-six thousand men. Nasbandi , they call it. Nasbandi . That was just in one state. In Delhi or U.P. or something. Nas means veins. Means? Veins, these, veins. Veins! I didn't know that. Bandi means stop it. Stop the vein so the semina will not go. Terrible. You're sure about that? Yes. They told you that's what they're doing. Stops you producing . . . they cut the tube that produces semina. I don't know where they do it. Some part of the body. It's somewhere near the testes. They cut the tube. It takes ten minutes. And it stops you producing any more semina. It's so bad. They give people . . . (break) . . . and eating so much nonsense. So the preaching in India has to be done very, very tactfully. No, just like I was speaking from *Bhāgavatam* . Just what you have spoken. But our actions must be very tactful also. If you speak only on the subject matter as it is mentioned in the book, it is already tactful. Jaya. But if we add something . . . *Now they are in a position of śoka*-moha-bhaya . So you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the best tact. Now it is the time. Now they are put into śoka-moha-bhaya . It is already there going on, śoka-moha-bhaya . But it is now special time for śoka-moha-bhaya . So you have to take it. It may be out of fear, bhaya , they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Still, they have to just take, that's all. *Yes. Catur*-vidhā bhajante māṁ janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna ārto (BG 7.16). Ārto . Ārtaḥ means who is afraid of. So this is the position of ārta , śoka-moha-bhaya . Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But that he can take, provided he is sukṛtina —if there is background. But still, by hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa he becomes sukṛtina . I think most of the devotees became by fear. I think most of the devotees have become devotees because of fear. Fear must be. If he's a gentleman he must be afraid of this material world. That is very good qualification. If one is afraid of this material existence, it is very good symptom. Just about every devotee, before coming to you, has thought about suicide. Suicide? Oh. So many, I know, I have spoken with them. And myself included. So many devotees, before . . . Yes, there was no hope. What is the use? Yes. Just about every devotee, they have thought of suicide. Yes, they commit suicide. I have seen. Fall from the . . . Skyscraper. Yes. Tower. Some have done. From the bridge. They have to put big wire screens up to stop people from jumping off. Yes, I have seen. Berkeley. Berkeley, yes. Everywhere. Sydney has bridges like that. These big towers like Eiffel Tower in Paris, they have big fences along the top so that no one can . . . This practice is there in Vedic system. Not Vedic system . . . (indistinct) . . . fall down. There is technical name. Fall down from the mountain. This is easier than other type of suicide. Because you simply once jump, but as soon as you fall, you forget everything. Suicide itself is very bad. This fall down, serotan it is called. *So one question I wanted to ask you in this connection is that this Vinoba, fasting until death, until cow slaughter is stopped. So if he dies, then he is guilty of murder. Is it correct? And if he's a brāhmaṇa , he is guilty of brahma*-hatya . So by this fasting he is committing a greater sin than the actual killing of the cows. You are right. And what is the gain? *And what he'll get it? Does he think that by his dying of starvation this cow*-killing will be stopped? That is his foolishness. He will die, and it will go on. Yes, that is his foolishness. And he does not know where he will go next. Just see, he is supposed to be very big man, and he's such a rascal. He has no sense what he is doing. Plainly you have described in the *Gītā* . You have described plainly in the *Gītā* . No one else has done that. Cinmayananda's, this, that rascal, no one has. No one has explained that. They don't know. No, anyone who is not in our disciplic succession, he's not a human being. Cinmayananda, Vivekananda, this- ānanda , they simply . . . ānanda —there is no ānanda . All nirānanda . What Cinmayananda? He is supposed to be very big sannyāsī . What he has done? What has he done? He advertised in the paper for young boys. There is one gentleman, Sadajiwatlal in Bombay. You know him? Sadaji Mahatma? Sadajiwatlal. Oh, yes. Chandu proprietor. I know about him. I know of him. *He . . . he is very intelligent. He has said to a friend that Bhaktivedanta Swami sabka muh kala kar diya. (Bhaktivedanta Swami has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) Kāla means that he has made all other so*-called sannyāsīs , yogīs , black-faced. (laughs) Jaya . He is intelligent. Bhaktivedanta Swami sabka muh kala kar diya. (Bhaktivedanta Swami has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) It's true. It's true. Now here is a big sannyāsī , Akhandanandan, or Bon Maharaja. They are supposed to be big, big sannyāsī . I do not know what Akhandanandan does. Anyway . . . (indistinct) . . . and this Anandamaya. Actually, I am not proud, but what they have done in comparison to me? Yes, they've done nothing. He has said . . . sabka muh kala kar diya, (has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) Mukāla . Kāla . Kāla means lajjita , black face. Everyone should be ashamed. They may be envious on account of their failure, but if you come to the actual valuation, sabka muh kala, (has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) That's a fact. Actually, that Bon Mahārāja is very black anyway. He's so black, there is no more black required. (laughter) A black snake. Kala brahmana, pota shudra . . . (Black brahmin , fair śūdra . . .) In Bengal it is said if a brahmin is black, he is dangerous. If a brāhmin is black? *That means he's not pure brāhmin . Brāhmin cannot be black. Just like a European, if he becomes black, that means he has mixture. European and American, if he's black, that means mixture. So brāhmin family, how it has . . . still, family, it must be very fair, śukla . Brāhmin , kṣatriya family must be very beautiful. If he's pure. Kala brahmana, pota shudra, bete musholman, khankir chele, poshya*-putro . . . (indistinct) . . . (black brahmin , fair śūdra , dwarf Muslim, prostitute's son, adopted son . . . (indistinct) . . .) It is a slang language. (laughter) Kāla brāhmaṇa . Brāhmaṇa should not be black, and śūdra should not be white. And a Musselman should not be dwarf. Because formerly, real Musselmens were coming from Kabul, Afghanistan. That is called . . . (indistinct) . . . if a Musselman is dwarf, that means he is not real. Khankir chele . . . (Prostitute's son . . .) Prostitute's son, and poṣya-putra , adopted son. They are all of the same class. How this selection? Black brāhmin , white śūdra , dwarf Musselman, and prostitute's son and adopted son. Adopted son, he gets money without any earning and spends like . . . I have seen so many adopted sons. Adopted son, oh. Yes. Just like our . . . Haṁsadūta's wife, what is name? She has adopted a son. Oh, Himāvatī. Himāvatī. It is not like that. But generally, adopted son means spoiled son. Spoiled. Spoiled brat. Because he gets money. Adopted . . . one who has got money but no children, he takes some adopted son. So the adopted son thinks that, "I have got so much money," and he has never worked. He is spoiled. I have seen many adopted son in our . . . got lakhs and lakhs of rupees, and in one night he's spoiled everything, simply after woman and wine. I have seen it. There was one gentleman, Narendranath Singh. Very big, palatial building and very rich man. And I have seen him when he was finished. He was friend of big, big person, Raja Maharlal. And one day I saw in Calcutta, in . . . (indistinct) . . . there was raining and he was sitting in a ricksha. And no friend. He had known practically all big men of Calcutta, friend. Nobody is coming. "Well, Narendra, you are sitting. Come on in my car." Nobody. I was . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was drenching, there was heavy rain. And sitting in a . . . and he was keeping Rolls Royce car. Keeping? Rolls Royce car. When he was rich man. Sometimes while traveling I've met some very old, rich men lying on their deathbed, dying. I approached them to help us. They will not give a single penny. It is all going to the son, and the son is atheist. In the house there is everywhere Kṛṣṇa's picture. Very difficult. They don't know that Kṛṣṇa is giving them a chance. They die; within days some of them can die. They are lying on the bed, passing stool and urine. So rich. But they do not care to help this movement. So many people like that. We have to become very expert. (end) Conversation A -- September 7, 1976, Vrndavana *. . . forest, naked, renounced, eating fruits, but debauch number one. Markaṭa*-vairāgya. There are so many vairāgīs. Markaṭa. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said, ei 'ta kali-celā : here is a disciple of Kali. Nāke tilaka galāi mālā : but has got a tilaka on the forehead and neckbeads on the neck, but is kali-celā —number one disciple of Kali. You know this song? This is going on. Kali-celā . These persons who are committing sinful life—don't say anyone (laughs) or publish—there will be trouble. But that's a fact. Those who are living in Vṛndāvana and acting like monkey, they'll get next life a monkey, to remain in Vṛndāvana, and then next life they will be liberated. In one life all their sinful activities will be punished. Because as soon as animal life is obtained, there is no more further record of the sinful life. The animals cannot make sinful activities more than what is destined by him. But their sinful activity is not taken into account. For this man who is offered this monkey's body, he suffers the inconvenience of monkey life. So his sinful activities are counteracted, and because he came to Vṛndāvana and lived in Vṛndāvana by the mercy of Rādhārāṇī, next life he will be . . . that is the glory of Vṛndāvana-dhāma. Otherwise, what is the explanation of these dogs and hogs and monkeys in Vṛndāvana? If it is dhāma-aparādha , committing offense in dhāma . . . dhāma-aparādha . As dhāma-bhajana , if one undergoes devotional service out of Vṛndāvana and one executes devotional service in Vṛndāvana, that is hundred times better. Similarly, dhāma-aparādha also. This aparādha , when offense is committed outside Vṛndāvana, that is not so grievous as committing offense in Vṛndāvana. Dhāma-aparādha . *So the punishment is there, but the reward is also there. One life makes pardoned. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su*-samīkṣamāṇo bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam ( SB 10.14.8). Therefore a devotee in a reverse condition of life, he understands that "I am punished, little punished for my previous mischievous activities. So now I am becoming liberated." So he becomes more enthused to worship the Lord, that "You are finishing my sinful reaction of life with slight punishment. Thank you very much." This is devotee. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇaḥ . The dogs and the monkeys, they feel grateful? Yes, when they come to sense they feel grateful. As dogs they cannot. As dog or monkey they cannot enhance their sinful activities. It is stopped. And whatever they do, that is not taken into account. And to suffer as dog or monkey means counteracting all previous sins. One punishment finished. Then he's fully liberated. I was always wondering that if somebody's desire is to commit sinful activities . . . *No, in Kali*-yuga if you desire, it is not sinful. And act . . . If they desire to commit sinful activities, and before they became monkeys, but then they were doing it then. So whilst they're monkeys their desire must change. Or is it forced, that change forced upon them by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa? But if desire changes, then where is punishment? If he's repentant, then there is no punishment. So before they go back to the spiritual world that desire must change. This is forceful change. Forceful change. That is the advantage of Vṛndāvana bhajana . That is very good. (laughs) *But not that willfully do something wrong. That is punishment. There is punishment. If one unconsciously, without any knowledge, does something wrong, that is excused. But they do willfully. They know it is wrong, still they do it. That is punished. Knowingly. Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally said, asat eka strī*-saṅgī (CC Madhya 22.87). Those who are habituated to illicit sex are punishable. Asat . It is very, very bad. And still if somebody does like that, he is punished. This is going on: "All right." Here, illicit sex . . . the bābājīs , I heard, they say, "What is the wrong there? It is love." They say like that. They take it as love. "gopīs love," they say. "gopīs used to do that, used to have illicit mixing, intermingling with Kṛṣṇa. What is wrong?" They'll say. They get support from kṛṣṇa-līlā. Such rogues they are. Sahajiyās . There are many so-called gentlemen, they write books on kṛṣṇa-līlā , paint picture. "This is very nice. Kṛṣṇa is advocating illicit intermingling." They take it as support of their sinful activities. I have seen personally, anyone who is a woman-hunter, he's being addressed by his friend, "Oh, you are like Kṛṣṇa." They take Kṛṣṇa as a man. How they will take instruction of Kṛṣṇa? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11). We are teaching people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, to become servant of Kṛṣṇa, and the so-called gentlemen, enlightened gentlemen, take Kṛṣṇa as a debauch, black debauch. (long pause) (break) . . . Vaiṣṇava religion is sex. (break) There are aborigines in India, Santal. They are called Santal. Black men, live in the forest like the African aborigines. So I asked him that "You, jungle, do you meet the tigers?" "Oh, yes, yes. Why not?" "So how do you save yourself?" So he had a small ax in his hand. So he showed me that "So long I have got this ax, even the tiger will not dare to attack me." Eta amar haate yatakshan thakbe. (As long as it's in my hand.) So after all, tiger is afraid of the ax. They are afraid of even stick. That immediately they understand, "He's superior." Actually, man is superior with some weapon. I have got personal experience. He said, "He's a big tiger. But we treat them like dogs." One ax. They keep always. Just like we keep a stick, they keep one ax. *Last year they bit Upendra. Remember that? Upendra went to Sevā*-kuñja and the monkeys came and took away all of his prasādam and bit him in the leg. Ācchā ? Many monkeys were deported by the government, but people protested. They were capturing monkeys . . . Here? Yes. Government. And selling at good price in Europe for taking their hormone. The monkey's hormones is injected or replaced so one regains his sex power. They are very sexually strong. That must interfere with their monkey's spiritual life. Huh? That interferes with the spiritual life of the monkey? Because then he can't die in Vṛndāvana. *It is further from them. Everything is being done by superior arrangement. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). People should learn all these things by practical example instead of becoming irresponsible and without any obedience to the superior law. They should learn it, but they have no intelligence. They think, "We are all free." Wherefrom the monkey is coming, why there are so many varieties of life, how it is . . .? What do they know? Nothing. All bluff, vague explanation, and that is going on in the name of science. This is the position. All rascals. Fortunately we have got this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā . All knowledge. First-class knowledge. (break) . . . eternally enjoyment. For him everything, ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Everything ānanda . He has no such thing that "This is harmful," "This is useful." That is Kṛṣṇa. Because nobody can do harm to Him, and neither in the spiritual world, anyone is harmful. Everyone is advanced devotee. Even the tigers, they are also devotees. Tigers? Varieties are there. They have tigers and serpents and everything like that? Everything. They are all devotees. There are no dogs and hogs. Yes. The hogs may be also there. Hogs are there as well? (laughs) They are there. But they are not hog. Just like Kṛṣṇa appears as hog, but that doesn't mean He's hog. Kṛṣṇa appears as fish. That does not mean He's fish. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotee offers obeisances) (end) Conversation A -- September 7, 1976, Vrndavana *. . . forest, naked, renounced, eating fruits, but debauch number one. Markaṭa*-vairāgya. There are so many vairāgīs. Markaṭa. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said, ei 'ta kali-celā : here is a disciple of Kali. Nāke tilaka galāi mālā : but has got a tilaka on the forehead and neckbeads on the neck, but is kali-celā —number one disciple of Kali. You know this song? This is going on. Kali-celā . These persons who are committing sinful life—don't say anyone (laughs) or publish—there will be trouble. But that's a fact. Those who are living in Vṛndāvana and acting like monkey, they'll get next life a monkey, to remain in Vṛndāvana, and then next life they will be liberated. In one life all their sinful activities will be punished. Because as soon as animal life is obtained, there is no more further record of the sinful life. The animals cannot make sinful activities more than what is destined by him. But their sinful activity is not taken into account. For this man who is offered this monkey's body, he suffers the inconvenience of monkey life. So his sinful activities are counteracted, and because he came to Vṛndāvana and lived in Vṛndāvana by the mercy of Rādhārāṇī, next life he will be . . . that is the glory of Vṛndāvana-dhāma. Otherwise, what is the explanation of these dogs and hogs and monkeys in Vṛndāvana? If it is dhāma-aparādha , committing offense in dhāma . . . dhāma-aparādha . As dhāma-bhajana , if one undergoes devotional service out of Vṛndāvana and one executes devotional service in Vṛndāvana, that is hundred times better. Similarly, dhāma-aparādha also. This aparādha , when offense is committed outside Vṛndāvana, that is not so grievous as committing offense in Vṛndāvana. Dhāma-aparādha . *So the punishment is there, but the reward is also there. One life makes pardoned. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su*-samīkṣamāṇo bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam ( SB 10.14.8). Therefore a devotee in a reverse condition of life, he understands that "I am punished, little punished for my previous mischievous activities. So now I am becoming liberated." So he becomes more enthused to worship the Lord, that "You are finishing my sinful reaction of life with slight punishment. Thank you very much." This is devotee. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇaḥ . The dogs and the monkeys, they feel grateful? Yes, when they come to sense they feel grateful. As dogs they cannot. As dog or monkey they cannot enhance their sinful activities. It is stopped. And whatever they do, that is not taken into account. And to suffer as dog or monkey means counteracting all previous sins. One punishment finished. Then he's fully liberated. I was always wondering that if somebody's desire is to commit sinful activities . . . *No, in Kali*-yuga if you desire, it is not sinful. And act . . . If they desire to commit sinful activities, and before they became monkeys, but then they were doing it then. So whilst they're monkeys their desire must change. Or is it forced, that change forced upon them by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa? But if desire changes, then where is punishment? If he's repentant, then there is no punishment. So before they go back to the spiritual world that desire must change. This is forceful change. Forceful change. That is the advantage of Vṛndāvana bhajana . That is very good. (laughs) *But not that willfully do something wrong. That is punishment. There is punishment. If one unconsciously, without any knowledge, does something wrong, that is excused. But they do willfully. They know it is wrong, still they do it. That is punished. Knowingly. Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally said, asat eka strī*-saṅgī (CC Madhya 22.87). Those who are habituated to illicit sex are punishable. Asat . It is very, very bad. And still if somebody does like that, he is punished. This is going on: "All right." Here, illicit sex . . . the bābājīs , I heard, they say, "What is the wrong there? It is love." They say like that. They take it as love. "gopīs love," they say. "gopīs used to do that, used to have illicit mixing, intermingling with Kṛṣṇa. What is wrong?" They'll say. They get support from kṛṣṇa-līlā. Such rogues they are. Sahajiyās . There are many so-called gentlemen, they write books on kṛṣṇa-līlā , paint picture. "This is very nice. Kṛṣṇa is advocating illicit intermingling." They take it as support of their sinful activities. I have seen personally, anyone who is a woman-hunter, he's being addressed by his friend, "Oh, you are like Kṛṣṇa." They take Kṛṣṇa as a man. How they will take instruction of Kṛṣṇa? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11). We are teaching people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, to become servant of Kṛṣṇa, and the so-called gentlemen, enlightened gentlemen, take Kṛṣṇa as a debauch, black debauch. (long pause) (break) . . . Vaiṣṇava religion is sex. (break) There are aborigines in India, Santal. They are called Santal. Black men, live in the forest like the African aborigines. So I asked him that "You, jungle, do you meet the tigers?" "Oh, yes, yes. Why not?" "So how do you save yourself?" So he had a small ax in his hand. So he showed me that "So long I have got this ax, even the tiger will not dare to attack me." Eta amar haate yatakshan thakbe. (As long as it's in my hand.) So after all, tiger is afraid of the ax. They are afraid of even stick. That immediately they understand, "He's superior." Actually, man is superior with some weapon. I have got personal experience. He said, "He's a big tiger. But we treat them like dogs." One ax. They keep always. Just like we keep a stick, they keep one ax. *Last year they bit Upendra. Remember that? Upendra went to Sevā*-kuñja and the monkeys came and took away all of his prasādam and bit him in the leg. Ācchā ? Many monkeys were deported by the government, but people protested. They were capturing monkeys . . . Here? Yes. Government. And selling at good price in Europe for taking their hormone. The monkey's hormones is injected or replaced so one regains his sex power. They are very sexually strong. That must interfere with their monkey's spiritual life. Huh? That interferes with the spiritual life of the monkey? Because then he can't die in Vṛndāvana. *It is further from them. Everything is being done by superior arrangement. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). People should learn all these things by practical example instead of becoming irresponsible and without any obedience to the superior law. They should learn it, but they have no intelligence. They think, "We are all free." Wherefrom the monkey is coming, why there are so many varieties of life, how it is . . .? What do they know? Nothing. All bluff, vague explanation, and that is going on in the name of science. This is the position. All rascals. Fortunately we have got this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā . All knowledge. First-class knowledge. (break) . . . eternally enjoyment. For him everything, ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Everything ānanda . He has no such thing that "This is harmful," "This is useful." That is Kṛṣṇa. Because nobody can do harm to Him, and neither in the spiritual world, anyone is harmful. Everyone is advanced devotee. Even the tigers, they are also devotees. Tigers? Varieties are there. They have tigers and serpents and everything like that? Everything. They are all devotees. There are no dogs and hogs. Yes. The hogs may be also there. Hogs are there as well? (laughs) They are there. But they are not hog. Just like Kṛṣṇa appears as hog, but that doesn't mean He's hog. Kṛṣṇa appears as fish. That does not mean He's fish. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotee offers obeisances) (end) Conversation A -- September 9, 1976, Vrndavana . . . because as soon as the ship stopped, Commonwealth Pier, Boston, the Immigration Department came and took their papers. So I entered America in Boston. There was no checking in New York. The ship stopped in Boston. The official entrance was done there. Then when I came to New York, it is just like one day's travel. No, that's not very far. And then you went to Pennsylvania. Hmm? And then you went directly to Pennsylvania? Yes. By bus? Yes. Then one agent appointed by my host, Gopal Agarwal . . . he was in Butler. So he arranged with some professional, what is called, host. Travel agent? Maybe travel agent. He came to see me that, "I am sent by Gopal Agarwal, so I'll arrange for your dispatch. You come with me." Dr. Agarwal was your sponsor? Yes, sponsor. His father came to see me sometime in Agra. In India. Agra. His father, mother came. And then they suggested that he be your sponsor. *It was all by chance. I was for a few days guest at his father's place in Agra. I did not know that his son is in America. So he was talking about his family. He was little sorry that his eldest son went to America to study electric engineering, and he was entrapped by an English girl there, and he married and settled there and did not come back. In this way . . . so I took the opportunity that, "Why don't you ask your son to sponsor me?" I wanted to go to America. So I did not know how seriously he took it. But I simply told him that, "Why don't you ask your son to sponsor me at least for one month? So I am thinking of going to America." Then that was talking, beginning and end, that's all. I did not know that he took it very seriously. Then after two, three months, some documents came. I was receiving my letters in a postbox. So when I left Delhi I used to keep my key of postbox with some nice bookseller, Atmaram, he was manager. So he opened that, he got that documents. That is No*-Objection Certificate, sponsor, and everything. I was out of Delhi. Then when I came back I took it. So everything was there, that sheet . . . (indistinct) . . . taken from the Indian Consulate, No-Objection Certificate and everything. Then I applied for a passport. In this way I had to go there. So Gopal was unknown to me, but his father was . . . his father was known to me, mother was known to me. Then his agent got me on the bus. So on the bus went to Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania? That's a long drive. Yes, nine hours on the bus. And I took a little chipped rice, (laughs) and whatever I had with me. So I got down from the ship about one o'clock. Then I had to wait for the bus till five o'clock. Then at five o'clock the bus started. About two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning, I went to Pennsylvania, and just in front of the bus Gopal was standing with his car, that . . . what is called? Van car? Stationwagon. Stationwagon. So he took my luggage, and from there thirty miles off, the Butler County. So I went there. Then at night he took my bedding and . . . the next day, he had no many rooms in his apartment, he arranged for my stay in the YMCA nearby them. You never actually stayed with him, then. I was going. I was taking my meals there. Oh. And just keeping a room at the YMCA. Because he had no room, so I was staying there. And then he arranged programs, speaking programs, or . . .? His wife, Sally. His wife, Sally, she was arranging. A very intelligent girl. They were of the same age, about thirty. Gopal was more than thirty and she was about thirty . . . (indistinct) . . . I saw that she was feeding her child, one boy, meat powder. Beef bouillion? I do know what is the name. But I asked. She said: "It is meat powder." That is the system? Yeah. When they're very young and they can't eat solids. With hot water. Yes, they have instant meals for children. All different kinds of things. So Gopal was very much pleased that he could get some Indian cāpāṭis , like this. So he had you cook for him. You took your cooker with you? Is that the same one? No. A different one then. *So I lived with him for twenty*-one days. Then I came to New York. *Yes, that picture in the Butler Eagle , it's in the Vyāsa*-Pūjā book this year. Yes, yes. Butler County, it is good county. There were many churches. That pleased me, that people have got so many churches, they're religious. (break) . . . some time, that one piece of wire lying in one place, one piece of bamboo was lying in another place, and one dry shell of a squash was lying there. So one intelligent man collected this. So this dry shell became the tambura's . . . what is called? I don't know. Like sound chamber. What do you call it? Like on a tambura. *Sound chamber maybe called. So with that dry squash he made the sound chamber. The bamboo he fixed up, and the wire upon it, and then it became a " tin*-tin-tin-tin . . ." (laughs) Our organization is like that. I was loitering in the street. Somebody was over there, somebody was there, not combined together. International Society String Band. Yes. Separately we are all useless. Eh? No, we were useless. You were never useless. *No, your assistance was required. How you can be useless? We're all useless. But combined together, now we have become a stringed instrument. This is very good example. Separately . . . just like the same logic, andha*-khañja. Separately, andha is useless, and khañja is useless. Blind and lame. They cannot do anything. But combined together, they become useful. Then? Would you like to reply? Or is it just recorded? I shall reply. You find them if they are coming. Yeah. There's a . . . it's a very . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- September 9, 1976, Vrndavana . . . because as soon as the ship stopped, Commonwealth Pier, Boston, the Immigration Department came and took their papers. So I entered America in Boston. There was no checking in New York. The ship stopped in Boston. The official entrance was done there. Then when I came to New York, it is just like one day's travel. No, that's not very far. And then you went to Pennsylvania. Hmm? And then you went directly to Pennsylvania? Yes. By bus? Yes. Then one agent appointed by my host, Gopal Agarwal . . . he was in Butler. So he arranged with some professional, what is called, host. Travel agent? Maybe travel agent. He came to see me that, "I am sent by Gopal Agarwal, so I'll arrange for your dispatch. You come with me." Dr. Agarwal was your sponsor? Yes, sponsor. His father came to see me sometime in Agra. In India. Agra. His father, mother came. And then they suggested that he be your sponsor. *It was all by chance. I was for a few days guest at his father's place in Agra. I did not know that his son is in America. So he was talking about his family. He was little sorry that his eldest son went to America to study electric engineering, and he was entrapped by an English girl there, and he married and settled there and did not come back. In this way . . . so I took the opportunity that, "Why don't you ask your son to sponsor me?" I wanted to go to America. So I did not know how seriously he took it. But I simply told him that, "Why don't you ask your son to sponsor me at least for one month? So I am thinking of going to America." Then that was talking, beginning and end, that's all. I did not know that he took it very seriously. Then after two, three months, some documents came. I was receiving my letters in a postbox. So when I left Delhi I used to keep my key of postbox with some nice bookseller, Atmaram, he was manager. So he opened that, he got that documents. That is No*-Objection Certificate, sponsor, and everything. I was out of Delhi. Then when I came back I took it. So everything was there, that sheet . . . (indistinct) . . . taken from the Indian Consulate, No-Objection Certificate and everything. Then I applied for a passport. In this way I had to go there. So Gopal was unknown to me, but his father was . . . his father was known to me, mother was known to me. Then his agent got me on the bus. So on the bus went to Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania? That's a long drive. Yes, nine hours on the bus. And I took a little chipped rice, (laughs) and whatever I had with me. So I got down from the ship about one o'clock. Then I had to wait for the bus till five o'clock. Then at five o'clock the bus started. About two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning, I went to Pennsylvania, and just in front of the bus Gopal was standing with his car, that . . . what is called? Van car? Stationwagon. Stationwagon. So he took my luggage, and from there thirty miles off, the Butler County. So I went there. Then at night he took my bedding and . . . the next day, he had no many rooms in his apartment, he arranged for my stay in the YMCA nearby them. You never actually stayed with him, then. I was going. I was taking my meals there. Oh. And just keeping a room at the YMCA. Because he had no room, so I was staying there. And then he arranged programs, speaking programs, or . . .? His wife, Sally. His wife, Sally, she was arranging. A very intelligent girl. They were of the same age, about thirty. Gopal was more than thirty and she was about thirty . . . (indistinct) . . . I saw that she was feeding her child, one boy, meat powder. Beef bouillion? I do know what is the name. But I asked. She said: "It is meat powder." That is the system? Yeah. When they're very young and they can't eat solids. With hot water. Yes, they have instant meals for children. All different kinds of things. So Gopal was very much pleased that he could get some Indian cāpāṭis , like this. So he had you cook for him. You took your cooker with you? Is that the same one? No. A different one then. *So I lived with him for twenty*-one days. Then I came to New York. *Yes, that picture in the Butler Eagle , it's in the Vyāsa*-Pūjā book this year. Yes, yes. Butler County, it is good county. There were many churches. That pleased me, that people have got so many churches, they're religious. (break) . . . some time, that one piece of wire lying in one place, one piece of bamboo was lying in another place, and one dry shell of a squash was lying there. So one intelligent man collected this. So this dry shell became the tambura's . . . what is called? I don't know. Like sound chamber. What do you call it? Like on a tambura. *Sound chamber maybe called. So with that dry squash he made the sound chamber. The bamboo he fixed up, and the wire upon it, and then it became a " tin*-tin-tin-tin . . ." (laughs) Our organization is like that. I was loitering in the street. Somebody was over there, somebody was there, not combined together. International Society String Band. Yes. Separately we are all useless. Eh? No, we were useless. You were never useless. *No, your assistance was required. How you can be useless? We're all useless. But combined together, now we have become a stringed instrument. This is very good example. Separately . . . just like the same logic, andha*-khañja. Separately, andha is useless, and khañja is useless. Blind and lame. They cannot do anything. But combined together, they become useful. Then? Would you like to reply? Or is it just recorded? I shall reply. You find them if they are coming. Yeah. There's a . . . it's a very . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- September 11, 1976, Vrndavana . . . in Bombay. So first of all finish your construction. Then you go to . . . (indistinct) No, but I mean they are carving the wood and everything, the shape of the . . . Now, we shall bring priests from Hyderabad. Ah. That is the technical thing. But I was speaking regarding the construction, because I want to know whether you want to have the (break) bathing ceremony only taking place on the opening day, or also later on the facility can . . . No, no. Only that day. Only that day. Then is it necessary to make this special arrangement that this . . . because I think that they . . . No, no. The small Deities, śālagrāma , They are worshiped. And big Deity, They are decorated nicely. No need of washing. So only the opening ceremony. Yes. Nitāi had them bathe the big Deities here, Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, on Janmāṣṭamī. *And on Balarāma's appearance day, the big Deities were bathed. Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. Terrible speculation. Actually, Janmāṣṭamī celebrations were very bad, and it's very . . . Therefore the color has faded? He is a rascal. I remember that when these Deities . . . they're never to be washed. Never water was to touch. Supposed to put a plastic bag over the Deity. That was . . . if you have to use the big Deities, you're supposed to cover Them with plastic. Why did you allow? Just see, this is the disease. Rascals, they do not know. And although I was . . . No, but everyone was listening to him. He was posing himself as the most learned in Deity worship. That he's fond of. *He was introducing Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa . *But it doesn't say in Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa that you bathe in water marble Deities. It says you're supposed to have a smaller set for bathing. That's in Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. His idea was that we would become the most famous temple for bathing big Deities in Vṛndāvana. This was his idea. That bathing is not done on the siṁhāsana . The Deity is taken out. Then it is done. But that is very risky. You cannot do it. And besides that, the bathing was done by devotees who are not experienced in Deity worship. Don't allow him. This botheration he has gone. He is simply posing himself very learned Sanskrit scholar, above everything. That is his ambition. And on the opening day the Deities will be on the altar, or They will be in front when They're bathed? When the bathing is taking place in Bombay for the opening, then They'll . . . That the priest will arrange, who will come from . . . Yes. But They will be on the altar or They will be in front? No. In the front They are left. So not on the altar. No. But if it is risky, you should not do. Big Deity . . . we have got big Deity, huh? *Yes, very heavy. They are very heavy, Rādhā*-Rāsabihārī. What they do in Hyderabad? Hyderabad the Deity was already installed. There was no need for bathing, so they didn't do it. Other Deities? *Here, just like here for the opening prāṇa*-pratiṣṭhā . Yes, they bathed the small Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Anyway, we should not take risk at any rate. *Rādhā*-Rāsabihārī, also, when They came from Akash-Ganga there was a disturbance with Them also. Rādhā has a tendency to crack on the arm. Her left arm cracks. Where? Slightly. There was a very weak . . . it was very weak. Very weak. I remember 'cause they had to move three times. I was there when all the times when They were moved. In Bombay. In Bombay. And every time they were very upset because of this left arm. *This risk should not be taken at any gain. Never mind Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa , this- vilāsa - no risk. You must always know - no risk. That is the first point. Then we consult Hari-bhakti-vilāsa and all this . . . nobody can give reference to Hari-bhakti-vilāsa at risk. No. Not at all. So? Anything more? Can I ask one question? You were mentioning that you wanted to start local industries, casting Deities. Yes, we can purchase . . . we can . . . Purchase raw materials? So, everything is all right now? Yes. So I was wondering . . . Can you come, there . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) There are, what is called, Deity makers here? Well, most of the Deities, they are cast in Aligarh. Aligarh? Oh. Yes. Then they're brought here, and there is . . . craftsmen, they finish. They polish, then they add . . . So who is from Aligarh? You go to . . . we have got a best friend in Aligarh. Surendra Kumar. Surendra Kumar. Ah. He'll get you all those things. He should know everything about that, because he's making lots. And another . . . Aligarh is the best place. (aside) What is that? It's the gentleman who was with you last night, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Prem Yogi. He has come with his luggage. Prem Yogi. So give him that place vacated by the old man. Next to Akṣayānanda's room. Seventeen. Take him up there. *Actually you can just bring him to Bhakti*-pradhāna and tell him. Bhakti-pradhāna is the manager of the guesthouse, so he should take care of it. No, this old man has gone. So give him that place. Yes. I believe there are two men. Two men, that's all right. Yes. Thank you. So, you just officially receive them. He's got M.A., Ph.D. Good man. This is etiquette. So, what I wanted to know was that, ah, you wanted . . . No, no. Develop that business and give engagement. The women can live here for sewing. They must be comfortably situated. If they are feeling, women, they cannot feel very bad and stay. We do not want that. So they can live here in a room and work sewing. And our women who has learned, they can teach. Very simple thing. That's all. And men must be engaged there for finishing. And if at Aligarh they are, what is called . . .? Casting. . . . casting, then there is no difference. And there is no difficulty. So the Deity should be cast in Aligarh and then finished here. Yes. Just like we are doing. Yes. Aligarh is from here 45 miles away. You can go and bring them, and Surendranath will help you. If there are expert men in Aligarh, that will be very nice. A different size Deity, you get there. Six inches, nine inches, twelve, fifteen. *Yes. And nice Gaura*-Nitāi and Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. And they'll prepare nice dress and pack in a box and send to our different centers. There are hundred centers. If you can dispatch at least one dozen pairs, you can make business for twelve hundred pairs. It will be very big business. And if they are displayed, people will like to purchase. It will be very good business. Even here. For people coming to our temple, if we have display they will purchase. Yes. We can have our shop here. We are getting so many shops. So one shop Deity and Deity clothes and mukuṭas . Just like they have got . . . In Loi Bazaar. Yes. The same. One shop sweets. *Apply business brain. Everything I'll have to tell you. You can . . . anyone who has got business brain, he can earn any amount of money. That is the . . . these are all . . . incense, Deity, and then mukuṭa , then tulasī*-mālā , then karatālas, manjiras , some pañcapātrā . In this way. Śrīla Prabhupāda? This man brought his friend. That room is not big enough for three. So they will have to take another room for two. Friend? His friend. One friend has come with him. That same person from last night, the one wearing white? Ah. So the three men cannot live there? No. Why? It's too small. No, no. Not so. First of all, give them, then we shall see later on. Why immediately want facilities? Or he can . . . the other man can go with the brahmacārīs . The younger one. No, no. Yes, somebody may go to the brahmacārīs . Just now make them accommodated there, then we shall see what to do. That "First of all you stay here, then we shall see what is convenient to you then." Because they're in an awful small room. If I put three in that room, that one man who's already there may become upset. He has already gone there? No, I mean, I know. I've been there. But that one man who's there now . . . So four men cannot live in that room? Three men not possible. Because they've got two beds in there. Two of these big, huge . . . At least you provide them two men there and one man with brahmacārīs . That's all. Not that we can spare so many rooms. If I ask that man who's already there to go to the brahmacārīs , he may become offended. Yes, you do that. He can go to the brahmacārīs . That's all. You can give him one of those sannyāsī rooms in the brahmacārīs . All right. Yes. Arrange everything. But don't turn this, and very easily give the other guest room. Then it will be awkward like anything. Very cautiously. So this is the program I am giving, and if you can give some practical sense, it will be very nice, profitable business. Yes. But it will require some capital in the beginning. So capital required, we can give. There is no scarcity of capital. But it must be consulted between three—Gopāla, Viśvambhara and yourself. And then if capital is required, how capital you will repay, make them assured. I shall give you. There is no difficulty. Capital you will have, provided you can make profit. Not that we give capital and then never return. That will not be possible. Take any amount of capital, but we must be paid interest as bank gives loan. I can say bank will give you. If I order the bank, bank will give you. So capital there is no question. The question is how you shall utilize it, how you shall make profit. Capital, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, you can take lakhs and lakhs . That I can arrange. The bank, if I say to the bank they will have to give you, or I shall personally give you. There is no question of capital scarcity. So only thing is how will you utilize this capital and how you will make profit. That's all. You make that program. So far capital is concerned, there is no concern. You'll get any amount of capital if you can develop the business. Now we have got credit in the bank, any bank will give you if I say yes. There will be no scarcity of capital. In Aligarh he has got so many friends. (Bhagatjī laughs) Aligarh we have got many friends. Half of my life was spent in Aligarh. (laughing) Aligarh is maternal uncle's house. So many relatives. So Aligarh, if the Deities are manufactured there, so there is no difficulty. No problem. If we get money . . . He'll arrange money. Money I shall bring . . . (indistinct) . . . money, we shall bring any amount of money, provided I am sure that you will make some profit. There is no scarcity. Prabhupāda, I was sick last night very much. That's all right. So I could not come to you. Last night you did not come? I came to see only to have your darśana , but I was in fever so much. Oh. So capital you'll get, rest assured. Anyone will give. He will give, or I will give, the bank will give. That is . . . but you must utilize it properly. You understand how to utilize? Yes, I understand. There is no scarcity. Utilize means return. Return means to utilize it properly. No, return also gradually, not at a time. Because if you take five thousand rupees, pay at the rate of five hundred rupees. Junior Sorcar jo magician hai world ke sabse bade, woh darshan karne ke liye aapke yahan aaye hain. Wahan se woh Ghaziabad jaa rahe hain abhi. Woh aapke darshan ke liye bahut zyada . . . (Junior Sorcar who is the world's biggest magician is here to meet you. He is leaving for Ghaziabad after that. He is very eager to meet you . . .) (break) . . . is concerned, that is our home, Aligarh. Aligarh. Money is concerned, you'll get any amount. Now organize and . . . (indistinct) Now, another thing I wanted to ask. Many devotees were asking me if we could make a deity of Your Divine Grace. That is not very . . . well . . . that is not immediate. We shall see later on. You can make. That we shall see later on. Not immediately. Immediately you make this arrangement. *And for design of Gaura*-Nitāi and Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, we should just use the same design, or we should make better? Make a hand design like that, and have your people make like that. Make a nice . . . Make, yes. I mean, better design. Yes, make a better design. And the hand will be like this. (Prabhupāda raises his arms above his head, and stretches his palms open with his fingers pointing outwards) Not like this. I like this myself. It's Navadvīpa style. This is Navadvīpa style. Yes, I like this much better. Otherwise the arms are too long and thin. *No. In this way make a nice design Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. And Rādhārāṇī should be like this. (demonstrates Rādhārāṇī's right hand raised above waist-level, Her palm upwards and the thumb joined to the tip of Her index finger) This is Vṛndāvana style. Not this. This is Lakṣmī style. This. Make these arrangements. I am hopeful of this business. Very good business we'll have. I want to introduce in every family. They'll do it. If they do not worship, let them keep as dolls. That will also give them inspiration. Actually, so many Indians in the West, they're keeping just like dolls. They are not worshiping regularly. They're keeping on the mantelpiece or on the side. In this way be encouraged, and in full capacity do business and get others. There was one boy who just came from Italy, and he's expert in wood carving. That's all right. So we can take artists for wooden siṁhāsanas . Siṁhāsanas he said he can make. He even brought his tools. He has a whole box of tools he brought just for carving, and he studied in the south of Spain, religious architecture. He can make a small siṁhāsana for the Deities, collapsible, so that if anyone wants, he can dispatch them. (end) Conversation A -- September 11, 1976, Vrndavana . . . in Bombay. So first of all finish your construction. Then you go to . . . (indistinct) No, but I mean they are carving the wood and everything, the shape of the . . . Now, we shall bring priests from Hyderabad. Ah. That is the technical thing. But I was speaking regarding the construction, because I want to know whether you want to have the (break) bathing ceremony only taking place on the opening day, or also later on the facility can . . . No, no. Only that day. Only that day. Then is it necessary to make this special arrangement that this . . . because I think that they . . . No, no. The small Deities, śālagrāma , They are worshiped. And big Deity, They are decorated nicely. No need of washing. So only the opening ceremony. Yes. Nitāi had them bathe the big Deities here, Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, on Janmāṣṭamī. *And on Balarāma's appearance day, the big Deities were bathed. Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. Terrible speculation. Actually, Janmāṣṭamī celebrations were very bad, and it's very . . . Therefore the color has faded? He is a rascal. I remember that when these Deities . . . they're never to be washed. Never water was to touch. Supposed to put a plastic bag over the Deity. That was . . . if you have to use the big Deities, you're supposed to cover Them with plastic. Why did you allow? Just see, this is the disease. Rascals, they do not know. And although I was . . . No, but everyone was listening to him. He was posing himself as the most learned in Deity worship. That he's fond of. *He was introducing Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa . *But it doesn't say in Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa that you bathe in water marble Deities. It says you're supposed to have a smaller set for bathing. That's in Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. His idea was that we would become the most famous temple for bathing big Deities in Vṛndāvana. This was his idea. That bathing is not done on the siṁhāsana . The Deity is taken out. Then it is done. But that is very risky. You cannot do it. And besides that, the bathing was done by devotees who are not experienced in Deity worship. Don't allow him. This botheration he has gone. He is simply posing himself very learned Sanskrit scholar, above everything. That is his ambition. And on the opening day the Deities will be on the altar, or They will be in front when They're bathed? When the bathing is taking place in Bombay for the opening, then They'll . . . That the priest will arrange, who will come from . . . Yes. But They will be on the altar or They will be in front? No. In the front They are left. So not on the altar. No. But if it is risky, you should not do. Big Deity . . . we have got big Deity, huh? *Yes, very heavy. They are very heavy, Rādhā*-Rāsabihārī. What they do in Hyderabad? Hyderabad the Deity was already installed. There was no need for bathing, so they didn't do it. Other Deities? *Here, just like here for the opening prāṇa*-pratiṣṭhā . Yes, they bathed the small Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Anyway, we should not take risk at any rate. *Rādhā*-Rāsabihārī, also, when They came from Akash-Ganga there was a disturbance with Them also. Rādhā has a tendency to crack on the arm. Her left arm cracks. Where? Slightly. There was a very weak . . . it was very weak. Very weak. I remember 'cause they had to move three times. I was there when all the times when They were moved. In Bombay. In Bombay. And every time they were very upset because of this left arm. *This risk should not be taken at any gain. Never mind Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa , this- vilāsa - no risk. You must always know - no risk. That is the first point. Then we consult Hari-bhakti-vilāsa and all this . . . nobody can give reference to Hari-bhakti-vilāsa at risk. No. Not at all. So? Anything more? Can I ask one question? You were mentioning that you wanted to start local industries, casting Deities. Yes, we can purchase . . . we can . . . Purchase raw materials? So, everything is all right now? Yes. So I was wondering . . . Can you come, there . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) There are, what is called, Deity makers here? Well, most of the Deities, they are cast in Aligarh. Aligarh? Oh. Yes. Then they're brought here, and there is . . . craftsmen, they finish. They polish, then they add . . . So who is from Aligarh? You go to . . . we have got a best friend in Aligarh. Surendra Kumar. Surendra Kumar. Ah. He'll get you all those things. He should know everything about that, because he's making lots. And another . . . Aligarh is the best place. (aside) What is that? It's the gentleman who was with you last night, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Prem Yogi. He has come with his luggage. Prem Yogi. So give him that place vacated by the old man. Next to Akṣayānanda's room. Seventeen. Take him up there. *Actually you can just bring him to Bhakti*-pradhāna and tell him. Bhakti-pradhāna is the manager of the guesthouse, so he should take care of it. No, this old man has gone. So give him that place. Yes. I believe there are two men. Two men, that's all right. Yes. Thank you. So, you just officially receive them. He's got M.A., Ph.D. Good man. This is etiquette. So, what I wanted to know was that, ah, you wanted . . . No, no. Develop that business and give engagement. The women can live here for sewing. They must be comfortably situated. If they are feeling, women, they cannot feel very bad and stay. We do not want that. So they can live here in a room and work sewing. And our women who has learned, they can teach. Very simple thing. That's all. And men must be engaged there for finishing. And if at Aligarh they are, what is called . . .? Casting. . . . casting, then there is no difference. And there is no difficulty. So the Deity should be cast in Aligarh and then finished here. Yes. Just like we are doing. Yes. Aligarh is from here 45 miles away. You can go and bring them, and Surendranath will help you. If there are expert men in Aligarh, that will be very nice. A different size Deity, you get there. Six inches, nine inches, twelve, fifteen. *Yes. And nice Gaura*-Nitāi and Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. And they'll prepare nice dress and pack in a box and send to our different centers. There are hundred centers. If you can dispatch at least one dozen pairs, you can make business for twelve hundred pairs. It will be very big business. And if they are displayed, people will like to purchase. It will be very good business. Even here. For people coming to our temple, if we have display they will purchase. Yes. We can have our shop here. We are getting so many shops. So one shop Deity and Deity clothes and mukuṭas . Just like they have got . . . In Loi Bazaar. Yes. The same. One shop sweets. *Apply business brain. Everything I'll have to tell you. You can . . . anyone who has got business brain, he can earn any amount of money. That is the . . . these are all . . . incense, Deity, and then mukuṭa , then tulasī*-mālā , then karatālas, manjiras , some pañcapātrā . In this way. Śrīla Prabhupāda? This man brought his friend. That room is not big enough for three. So they will have to take another room for two. Friend? His friend. One friend has come with him. That same person from last night, the one wearing white? Ah. So the three men cannot live there? No. Why? It's too small. No, no. Not so. First of all, give them, then we shall see later on. Why immediately want facilities? Or he can . . . the other man can go with the brahmacārīs . The younger one. No, no. Yes, somebody may go to the brahmacārīs . Just now make them accommodated there, then we shall see what to do. That "First of all you stay here, then we shall see what is convenient to you then." Because they're in an awful small room. If I put three in that room, that one man who's already there may become upset. He has already gone there? No, I mean, I know. I've been there. But that one man who's there now . . . So four men cannot live in that room? Three men not possible. Because they've got two beds in there. Two of these big, huge . . . At least you provide them two men there and one man with brahmacārīs . That's all. Not that we can spare so many rooms. If I ask that man who's already there to go to the brahmacārīs , he may become offended. Yes, you do that. He can go to the brahmacārīs . That's all. You can give him one of those sannyāsī rooms in the brahmacārīs . All right. Yes. Arrange everything. But don't turn this, and very easily give the other guest room. Then it will be awkward like anything. Very cautiously. So this is the program I am giving, and if you can give some practical sense, it will be very nice, profitable business. Yes. But it will require some capital in the beginning. So capital required, we can give. There is no scarcity of capital. But it must be consulted between three—Gopāla, Viśvambhara and yourself. And then if capital is required, how capital you will repay, make them assured. I shall give you. There is no difficulty. Capital you will have, provided you can make profit. Not that we give capital and then never return. That will not be possible. Take any amount of capital, but we must be paid interest as bank gives loan. I can say bank will give you. If I order the bank, bank will give you. So capital there is no question. The question is how you shall utilize it, how you shall make profit. Capital, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, you can take lakhs and lakhs . That I can arrange. The bank, if I say to the bank they will have to give you, or I shall personally give you. There is no question of capital scarcity. So only thing is how will you utilize this capital and how you will make profit. That's all. You make that program. So far capital is concerned, there is no concern. You'll get any amount of capital if you can develop the business. Now we have got credit in the bank, any bank will give you if I say yes. There will be no scarcity of capital. In Aligarh he has got so many friends. (Bhagatjī laughs) Aligarh we have got many friends. Half of my life was spent in Aligarh. (laughing) Aligarh is maternal uncle's house. So many relatives. So Aligarh, if the Deities are manufactured there, so there is no difficulty. No problem. If we get money . . . He'll arrange money. Money I shall bring . . . (indistinct) . . . money, we shall bring any amount of money, provided I am sure that you will make some profit. There is no scarcity. Prabhupāda, I was sick last night very much. That's all right. So I could not come to you. Last night you did not come? I came to see only to have your darśana , but I was in fever so much. Oh. So capital you'll get, rest assured. Anyone will give. He will give, or I will give, the bank will give. That is . . . but you must utilize it properly. You understand how to utilize? Yes, I understand. There is no scarcity. Utilize means return. Return means to utilize it properly. No, return also gradually, not at a time. Because if you take five thousand rupees, pay at the rate of five hundred rupees. Junior Sorcar jo magician hai world ke sabse bade, woh darshan karne ke liye aapke yahan aaye hain. Wahan se woh Ghaziabad jaa rahe hain abhi. Woh aapke darshan ke liye bahut zyada . . . (Junior Sorcar who is the world's biggest magician is here to meet you. He is leaving for Ghaziabad after that. He is very eager to meet you . . .) (break) . . . is concerned, that is our home, Aligarh. Aligarh. Money is concerned, you'll get any amount. Now organize and . . . (indistinct) Now, another thing I wanted to ask. Many devotees were asking me if we could make a deity of Your Divine Grace. That is not very . . . well . . . that is not immediate. We shall see later on. You can make. That we shall see later on. Not immediately. Immediately you make this arrangement. *And for design of Gaura*-Nitāi and Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, we should just use the same design, or we should make better? Make a hand design like that, and have your people make like that. Make a nice . . . Make, yes. I mean, better design. Yes, make a better design. And the hand will be like this. (Prabhupāda raises his arms above his head, and stretches his palms open with his fingers pointing outwards) Not like this. I like this myself. It's Navadvīpa style. This is Navadvīpa style. Yes, I like this much better. Otherwise the arms are too long and thin. *No. In this way make a nice design Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. And Rādhārāṇī should be like this. (demonstrates Rādhārāṇī's right hand raised above waist-level, Her palm upwards and the thumb joined to the tip of Her index finger) This is Vṛndāvana style. Not this. This is Lakṣmī style. This. Make these arrangements. I am hopeful of this business. Very good business we'll have. I want to introduce in every family. They'll do it. If they do not worship, let them keep as dolls. That will also give them inspiration. Actually, so many Indians in the West, they're keeping just like dolls. They are not worshiping regularly. They're keeping on the mantelpiece or on the side. In this way be encouraged, and in full capacity do business and get others. There was one boy who just came from Italy, and he's expert in wood carving. That's all right. So we can take artists for wooden siṁhāsanas . Siṁhāsanas he said he can make. He even brought his tools. He has a whole box of tools he brought just for carving, and he studied in the south of Spain, religious architecture. He can make a small siṁhāsana for the Deities, collapsible, so that if anyone wants, he can dispatch them. (end) Conversation -- September 12, 1976, Vrndavana (bullock cart SKP) I have seen, Gandhi wanted to organize a village program, and the village . . . (break) . . . in the field, that this program for constructing toilet in the village, they have spent so much. You know that? The first business was toilet. To restrict them to pass stool here and there, they must have. Now in constructing that toilet paraphernalia . . . (indistinct) . . . they . . . therefore it failed, village organization. Not for that purpose. There were many purpose. Because they had no engagement, so why they should remain in the village? There are so many attraction in the city, and they get money. The factory- wallas , they're inviting, "Come here. You shall get twenty rupees per day." Why shall he remain in the village? So if you can organize in the villages, they are interested in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and getting nice prasādam , then . . . one must have some attachment. In the city there are so many artificial attachments. So on what ground they'll remain in the village? Mind . . . always remember this. Unless you have got some attachment, there is no possibility. Gandhi's program was very nice, village organized so that they may not come to the city and help the capitalists. Remain satisfied in the village. But where is that satisfaction? That is the failure. If they add the holy name to their lives, they will . . . *Yes. If they could understand that, "That will be helpful if you chant." Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's statement will never be false. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12). If they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , then gradually the dirty things accumulated within the heart will be cleansed. And if he comes to the understanding, clear idea, that "I want to eat something, and my necessities . . . so if I get my necessities, primary necessities of life, and satisfaction of mind, then why shall I go to the city?" That they can have very easily . . . if they follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā , that "Your first necessity is food . . ." So produce food here. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). And you'll find here so much land is lying vacant, because they have gone to the city for twenty rupees daily to manufacture Goodyear tyre. And who will work here? Now I have seen in Delhi, the government is advertising, "Go back to the village." Yes, I read that . . . You are . . . rascal, you are manufacturing wine and keeping them engaged whole day in the work. So after tired, being tired, he requires some wine. Then and why he'll go? And no spiritual education, no cleanliness. Simply inviting, "Go to the village," they will go? Just a propaganda. *(indistinct) . . . no, they're thinking that, "So many people are coming to the cities, how we shall provide them?" That's a problem. After all, government has to supply them rations. Where is so much foodstuff? And if they are not supplied, then there will be resentment. This is a fact. What they are doing in the city, so many scooter (makes motor sound), going here and there. Actually no engagement. The girls are loitering in the street by dressing. It will become more and more problems, city life. So this is the solution, that they must go back to the village. But they are trained up to enjoy the facilities, so*-called facilities, of the city. They are not going to village. But if we can introduce this hari-saṅkīrtana , and if they have little taste, that is success. It's a great program. And that taste will come— ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). If he simply becomes little sober that, "I want to eat, I have to sleep, I want some sense enjoyment and defense. So if I can get easily in the village, why shall I go three hundred miles away?" Just keep in mind the psychology. So that simple life will be possible if one is bhakta . Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Only by devotion; *not by otherwise. Not by artificial means, by manufacturing toilet. Only bhakti . If they get little attachment for Kṛṣṇa, these questions will be solved automatically, and they will be happy. Undoubtedly. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first instruction: ceto*-darpaṇa. I come from village, and I'm happy now, as I have taken to holy name and prasāda . So more, other villagers . . . half of these boys are from villages? (referring to other members of the bullock cart party) Yes, they are villagers. They're chanting and they're so happy, and they're going back to village. Very good life. Very good life, the village life—provided he has got proper engagement. Otherwise his mind will be disturbed, and he'll seek after wine, after women, after this, after that. Devil's workshop. *Śrīla Prabhupāda? Because there's no sacrifice, because people aren't performing sacrifices now, is it more difficult to live off the land? It is more difficult to grow vegetables in Kali*-yuga where there's no sacrifice? What is that sacrifice? Chanting. Chanting the holy name. Doesn't that make it more difficult to live? The weather's . . . everything's so disturbed? Whether you're not eating? He says there is no yajña , sacrifice. People are not performing. That is why they are into the trouble. *This is yajña . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana*-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Su-medhasaḥ . Those who have got brain substance, they perform this saṅkīrtana-yajña . Those who have cow dung, they cannot. (laughter) One who has got brain substance. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ . And alpa-medhasa . The two words. Viśvambhara is having fever, but he'll go to Koshi now. Viśvambhara is having fever, so he'll go . . . Who will go? Viśvambhara will go when he's better, maybe tomorrow. *That's all right. There is another word: tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasaḥ . Tad bhavati . . . alpa-medha and su-medhasa . These two words we get from the śāstra . Those who are alpa-medhasa , they want to bring . . . just like in name, gītā-yajñas . There is no yajña. They are manufacturing some ideas. The other yajñas are not possible in this age. First of all, there is no yajñika-brāhmaṇa , there is no ingredients. So therefore this is the yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ . This is quotation from Bhāgavata . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti he su-medhasaḥ . Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni . . . (CC Antya 20.12). This yajña . Simply chant, and engage others in chanting. That is yajña , first-class yajña , recommended. Prabhupāda? When we pass through the village, how will we keep them engaged . . . That he'll guide you. You do not know. He is from village, he knows. Village or no village, wherever you chant, people will come. That is a fact. That is a fact. Either you chant in Calcutta Maidan or in the village, they will be . . . India is still alive in that sense. We have seen it. We have experience. Wherever we have chanted, people have come. When you went to some place in Gujarat . . . Sanand? Yes. It was reported that thousands of people will come. It was a small village . . . Yes. Village, if you go, ah, they will come like anything. Even in the city we have got experience. In Calcutta we did Maidan. Thirty thousand they were coming. They could not understand English, still they are coming—simply by kīrtana . This Haṁsadūta was performing kīrtana , and all the Bengali ladies coming from outside Calcutta by train, and they're praying, "Take this." . . . (indistinct) . . . still India is alive. And I was speaking in English mostly. Also in Delhi. Still ladies are sitting. (laughs) What they'll understand English? But that kīrtana was so attractive, they sat down only for kīrtana. Nobody outside ISKCON does this kīrtana. What do they know? What they'll do? All rascals, fools. They never done. Even some religious organizations are there, but nobody . . . They do not know what is religion. They do not know what is religion. They have no faith in God. This is their position. All bogus. I say it, challenging, do they know what is God? Ki balo, (Now say) Mr. Gupta? Do they know? People in general, do they know what is God? They don't know what is God. But they only respect God out of fear. That's all right. That is also good. Ārto arthārthī (BG 7.16). Ārtaḥ . That is good. But still they do not know what is God. They have simply heard the name of God, there is God. That is good also, than the rascals who deny the existence of God. So in comparison to them, they are very good. At least they accept there is something as God: "God is good," "God is kind," "God is . . ." But what is God they have no idea. That's a fact. That they do not know. Either the nonbelievers or believers, both of them, they have no idea. This is the first time, perhaps, in the world we are introducing, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." You have said many times you could give complete address of Kṛṣṇa. Yes, we give address. And also we know the telephone number. Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the first time. Otherwise, they do not know what is God. Now you are coming from Christian community. Did you have any idea of God? Just "God is great." *That's all . . . but what is that great? What is God, you do not know. We know. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Bās. "There is no more greater principle than Me." That is great. "How You are great?" Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2): "I am the origin of all these demigods." Next "How You are great?" Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). This is their ignorance. They have simply heard God is great, but how He is great, that they do not know. Here is the . . . God is personally speaking, "Yes, I am great in this way." Ahaṁ sarvasya . Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). That is greatness. The original source of everything. So we are presenting God, "Here is God, here is God". Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ (SB 1.3.28). There are other incarnations, but kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . That's a fact. *So try to present the real fact. It will be effective. If there is real . . . reality, just like first*-class pure ghee . . . if one tastes, he'll hanker after. Without any advertisement, by the taste of the ghee , it will go on. Is it not? If you put little pure ghee on the rice, it will be so tasteful that he'll want it again. But give the pure thing. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Try to give Him to the people. And how to take it? Hare Kṛṣṇa. He hasn't got to pay anything. God has given him the tongue. Induce him, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And that is the beginning. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). It begins from the jihvā . So people will be surprised, "How God consciousness begins with jihvā? " That they do not know. Śāstra says, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Jihvā , the tongue, is the beginning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. People are surprised. They think the mind, speculative mind, is the beginning. No. Śāstra says tongue is the beginning. Muni, ṛṣi, muni . Muni means speculator. So they think speculative mind is the beginning of God consciousness. But śāstra says no, not the mind. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). If one is speculator, he will be on the material field. Asata. Asato mā sad gamaya . "Don't remain in the asat . Come to the reality." That reality begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Jihvā ādi, ādau . So give them chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and give them chance to taste prasādam . They'll be . . . that's all. Jihvādau . Utilize the tongue, primarily. And gradually everything will be . . . So chant as much possible and eat prasādam . No education required, no philosophy required. But follow the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction and become guru . *If they have got little brain, then kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa . Otherwise, Hare Kṛṣṇa upadeśa , that's all. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very simple. The preacher does not require to be very highly educated. If he follows simply Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128), then he's successful. No, ustādi. (expertise.) That is not . . . No what? Ustādi , ustad hota hai na? (Expertise, there are Ustāds right?) Flowery language. Bhagavan pehla. Ye Ustadi hai. Maya ka juta kha raha hai aur Bhagvan bante hai . . . itna sense nahi hai ki agar main Bhagvan hi hota toh ye juta khaane ke liye kaisa hai? Bhagvan kisika juta khata hai? Kahin se juta khaya kya? Sabko juta bana diya. Ye Bhagvan hai. (God first. This is expertise. They are beaten up by Maya's boots and become God . . . that doesn't even make much sense, that if I am God then why am I beaten up by Maya's boots. Is God beaten up by boots? Does Kṛṣṇa ever get beaten up by boots? He made everyone condemned like shoes. That is God.). That is God is great. Nobody can defeat Him. Nobody can go beyond Him. Asama-ūrdhva . Nobody is equal to Him. Asama , ūrdhva . Nobody is greater than Him, nobody is equal to Him. That is God. Nowadays there are so many Gods, everyone God. So what kind of God? If God has a competitor, then what is the God? God has no competitor. Asama-ūrdhva . Everyone is down. Asama . Not equal, not ūrdhva . Then down. Two things . . . three things are there: equal, level; upper and lower. So there is no upper and there is no equal. Then all lower. Then He's the supreme controller, īśvara parama . In the lower level there may be īśvara . But they are not parama . Subordinate. Āra saba bhṛtya . " Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa Īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya ." (CC Adi 5.142). Āra saba bhṛtya . God is one, and all others, they are subjects. Nityo nityānām . Why these two words are used? Nityānām . Everyone is nitya, but He's the supreme nitya . Cetanaś cetanānām . He's not dead body, dead matter. Cetana. Nitya . . . just as the Himalaya Parvata is standing forever. No. Cetana , living. So how He can be imperson? Himalaya Parvata may be very big, the sky may be big, but it is not cetana . Therefore this word is used, cetana , living. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). What is the difference? Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . That one nitya is providing, maintaining all other nityas . That is God. God is great. That is the meaning. So anyway, make your effort sincerely. The basic principle is this: induce them to chant and take prasādam , you'll be successful. Not very much Ustādi . Mantra de denge aur humko 35 dollars do jhamela ye sab. (We will give you a mantra, give us 35 dollars—all this is trouble.) So we'll write to you, about the books. *Yes. Go to village to village. It is very noble attempt. And if you sincerely preach, Kṛṣṇa will . . . buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te . There is no doubt. *Lakhon Guru Hai Jagat Mein Par Ek Bhi Nahi Kaam Ka, (There are many gurus in this world but all are useless,) Sab Svaarthi Hain Daam Ke Danka Bajate Naam Ka, (All are selfish for money glorifying their own names,) Visvas Ka Guru Ek Hi Hai Baaki Nahin Kuch Dhyan De, (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Jo Khaas Ki Pehchan De Wahi Sad*-Guru Pehchan Le. (And that Sad-guru is one who tells about the Supreme, identifying him.) He joined us four days back. He's from Maharashtra. I'm taking him with me. He understands the philosophy. Wherefrom it is quoted? (Marathi) Saint Tukārāma. Oh, Saint Tukārāma. He's a great saint. He is Māyāvādī or Vaiṣṇava? Tukārāma is Vaiṣṇava. Oh! Tukārāma is Vaiṣṇava. But this is different. Tukārāma met Caitanya Mahāprabhu at Mylapur. Yes. Tukārāma is a disciple of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then it is in order. What is the verse . . . *Lakhon Guru Hai Jagat Mein Par Ek Bhi Nahi Kaam Ka, (There are many gurus in this world but all are useless, Sab Svaarthi Hain Daam Ke Danka Bajate Naam Ka, (All are selfish for money glorifying their own names,) Visvas Ka Guru Ek Hi Hai Baaki Nahin Kuch Dhyan De, (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Jo Khaas Ki Pehchan De Wahi Sad*-Guru Pehchan Le. (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Nahi Hone Denge Barbaad Jo Denge Saccha Itihas Woh Hamare Guru Vaishnava Srila Prabhupāda. (He will not perish, He will give real history and testimony, he is our guru Vaisnava Srila Prabhupāda.) It's a very nice quotation. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Ye hum logon ke liye koi muskil nahi hai, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu ne . . . (This is not all difficult for us, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said . . .) "By My order." That's all. That I was explaining to Mr. Gupta. If I say this bag of bead, you take it and give it to him, then where is my difficulty? There is no difficulty. This is called bead bag. You take it and give him—and you become guru . Call a spade a spade. And if you become Ustādi , "Kurukṣetra means this body, and this means this, and this means that," then you spoil. You spoil yourself also . . . (indistinct Bengali) (end) Conversation -- September 12, 1976, Vrndavana (bullock cart SKP) I have seen, Gandhi wanted to organize a village program, and the village . . . (break) . . . in the field, that this program for constructing toilet in the village, they have spent so much. You know that? The first business was toilet. To restrict them to pass stool here and there, they must have. Now in constructing that toilet paraphernalia . . . (indistinct) . . . they . . . therefore it failed, village organization. Not for that purpose. There were many purpose. Because they had no engagement, so why they should remain in the village? There are so many attraction in the city, and they get money. The factory- wallas , they're inviting, "Come here. You shall get twenty rupees per day." Why shall he remain in the village? So if you can organize in the villages, they are interested in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and getting nice prasādam , then . . . one must have some attachment. In the city there are so many artificial attachments. So on what ground they'll remain in the village? Mind . . . always remember this. Unless you have got some attachment, there is no possibility. Gandhi's program was very nice, village organized so that they may not come to the city and help the capitalists. Remain satisfied in the village. But where is that satisfaction? That is the failure. If they add the holy name to their lives, they will . . . *Yes. If they could understand that, "That will be helpful if you chant." Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's statement will never be false. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12). If they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , then gradually the dirty things accumulated within the heart will be cleansed. And if he comes to the understanding, clear idea, that "I want to eat something, and my necessities . . . so if I get my necessities, primary necessities of life, and satisfaction of mind, then why shall I go to the city?" That they can have very easily . . . if they follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā , that "Your first necessity is food . . ." So produce food here. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). And you'll find here so much land is lying vacant, because they have gone to the city for twenty rupees daily to manufacture Goodyear tyre. And who will work here? Now I have seen in Delhi, the government is advertising, "Go back to the village." Yes, I read that . . . You are . . . rascal, you are manufacturing wine and keeping them engaged whole day in the work. So after tired, being tired, he requires some wine. Then and why he'll go? And no spiritual education, no cleanliness. Simply inviting, "Go to the village," they will go? Just a propaganda. *(indistinct) . . . no, they're thinking that, "So many people are coming to the cities, how we shall provide them?" That's a problem. After all, government has to supply them rations. Where is so much foodstuff? And if they are not supplied, then there will be resentment. This is a fact. What they are doing in the city, so many scooter (makes motor sound), going here and there. Actually no engagement. The girls are loitering in the street by dressing. It will become more and more problems, city life. So this is the solution, that they must go back to the village. But they are trained up to enjoy the facilities, so*-called facilities, of the city. They are not going to village. But if we can introduce this hari-saṅkīrtana , and if they have little taste, that is success. It's a great program. And that taste will come— ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). If he simply becomes little sober that, "I want to eat, I have to sleep, I want some sense enjoyment and defense. So if I can get easily in the village, why shall I go three hundred miles away?" Just keep in mind the psychology. So that simple life will be possible if one is bhakta . Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Only by devotion; *not by otherwise. Not by artificial means, by manufacturing toilet. Only bhakti . If they get little attachment for Kṛṣṇa, these questions will be solved automatically, and they will be happy. Undoubtedly. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first instruction: ceto*-darpaṇa. I come from village, and I'm happy now, as I have taken to holy name and prasāda . So more, other villagers . . . half of these boys are from villages? (referring to other members of the bullock cart party) Yes, they are villagers. They're chanting and they're so happy, and they're going back to village. Very good life. Very good life, the village life—provided he has got proper engagement. Otherwise his mind will be disturbed, and he'll seek after wine, after women, after this, after that. Devil's workshop. *Śrīla Prabhupāda? Because there's no sacrifice, because people aren't performing sacrifices now, is it more difficult to live off the land? It is more difficult to grow vegetables in Kali*-yuga where there's no sacrifice? What is that sacrifice? Chanting. Chanting the holy name. Doesn't that make it more difficult to live? The weather's . . . everything's so disturbed? Whether you're not eating? He says there is no yajña , sacrifice. People are not performing. That is why they are into the trouble. *This is yajña . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana*-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Su-medhasaḥ . Those who have got brain substance, they perform this saṅkīrtana-yajña . Those who have cow dung, they cannot. (laughter) One who has got brain substance. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ . And alpa-medhasa . The two words. Viśvambhara is having fever, but he'll go to Koshi now. Viśvambhara is having fever, so he'll go . . . Who will go? Viśvambhara will go when he's better, maybe tomorrow. *That's all right. There is another word: tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasaḥ . Tad bhavati . . . alpa-medha and su-medhasa . These two words we get from the śāstra . Those who are alpa-medhasa , they want to bring . . . just like in name, gītā-yajñas . There is no yajña. They are manufacturing some ideas. The other yajñas are not possible in this age. First of all, there is no yajñika-brāhmaṇa , there is no ingredients. So therefore this is the yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ . This is quotation from Bhāgavata . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti he su-medhasaḥ . Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni . . . (CC Antya 20.12). This yajña . Simply chant, and engage others in chanting. That is yajña , first-class yajña , recommended. Prabhupāda? When we pass through the village, how will we keep them engaged . . . That he'll guide you. You do not know. He is from village, he knows. Village or no village, wherever you chant, people will come. That is a fact. That is a fact. Either you chant in Calcutta Maidan or in the village, they will be . . . India is still alive in that sense. We have seen it. We have experience. Wherever we have chanted, people have come. When you went to some place in Gujarat . . . Sanand? Yes. It was reported that thousands of people will come. It was a small village . . . Yes. Village, if you go, ah, they will come like anything. Even in the city we have got experience. In Calcutta we did Maidan. Thirty thousand they were coming. They could not understand English, still they are coming—simply by kīrtana . This Haṁsadūta was performing kīrtana , and all the Bengali ladies coming from outside Calcutta by train, and they're praying, "Take this." . . . (indistinct) . . . still India is alive. And I was speaking in English mostly. Also in Delhi. Still ladies are sitting. (laughs) What they'll understand English? But that kīrtana was so attractive, they sat down only for kīrtana. Nobody outside ISKCON does this kīrtana. What do they know? What they'll do? All rascals, fools. They never done. Even some religious organizations are there, but nobody . . . They do not know what is religion. They do not know what is religion. They have no faith in God. This is their position. All bogus. I say it, challenging, do they know what is God? Ki balo, (Now say) Mr. Gupta? Do they know? People in general, do they know what is God? They don't know what is God. But they only respect God out of fear. That's all right. That is also good. Ārto arthārthī (BG 7.16). Ārtaḥ . That is good. But still they do not know what is God. They have simply heard the name of God, there is God. That is good also, than the rascals who deny the existence of God. So in comparison to them, they are very good. At least they accept there is something as God: "God is good," "God is kind," "God is . . ." But what is God they have no idea. That's a fact. That they do not know. Either the nonbelievers or believers, both of them, they have no idea. This is the first time, perhaps, in the world we are introducing, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." You have said many times you could give complete address of Kṛṣṇa. Yes, we give address. And also we know the telephone number. Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the first time. Otherwise, they do not know what is God. Now you are coming from Christian community. Did you have any idea of God? Just "God is great." *That's all . . . but what is that great? What is God, you do not know. We know. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Bās. "There is no more greater principle than Me." That is great. "How You are great?" Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2): "I am the origin of all these demigods." Next "How You are great?" Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). This is their ignorance. They have simply heard God is great, but how He is great, that they do not know. Here is the . . . God is personally speaking, "Yes, I am great in this way." Ahaṁ sarvasya . Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). That is greatness. The original source of everything. So we are presenting God, "Here is God, here is God". Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ (SB 1.3.28). There are other incarnations, but kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . That's a fact. *So try to present the real fact. It will be effective. If there is real . . . reality, just like first*-class pure ghee . . . if one tastes, he'll hanker after. Without any advertisement, by the taste of the ghee , it will go on. Is it not? If you put little pure ghee on the rice, it will be so tasteful that he'll want it again. But give the pure thing. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Try to give Him to the people. And how to take it? Hare Kṛṣṇa. He hasn't got to pay anything. God has given him the tongue. Induce him, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And that is the beginning. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). It begins from the jihvā . So people will be surprised, "How God consciousness begins with jihvā? " That they do not know. Śāstra says, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Jihvā , the tongue, is the beginning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. People are surprised. They think the mind, speculative mind, is the beginning. No. Śāstra says tongue is the beginning. Muni, ṛṣi, muni . Muni means speculator. So they think speculative mind is the beginning of God consciousness. But śāstra says no, not the mind. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). If one is speculator, he will be on the material field. Asata. Asato mā sad gamaya . "Don't remain in the asat . Come to the reality." That reality begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Jihvā ādi, ādau . So give them chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and give them chance to taste prasādam . They'll be . . . that's all. Jihvādau . Utilize the tongue, primarily. And gradually everything will be . . . So chant as much possible and eat prasādam . No education required, no philosophy required. But follow the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction and become guru . *If they have got little brain, then kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa . Otherwise, Hare Kṛṣṇa upadeśa , that's all. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very simple. The preacher does not require to be very highly educated. If he follows simply Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128), then he's successful. No, ustādi. (expertise.) That is not . . . No what? Ustādi , ustad hota hai na? (Expertise, there are Ustāds right?) Flowery language. Bhagavan pehla. Ye Ustadi hai. Maya ka juta kha raha hai aur Bhagvan bante hai . . . itna sense nahi hai ki agar main Bhagvan hi hota toh ye juta khaane ke liye kaisa hai? Bhagvan kisika juta khata hai? Kahin se juta khaya kya? Sabko juta bana diya. Ye Bhagvan hai. (God first. This is expertise. They are beaten up by Maya's boots and become God . . . that doesn't even make much sense, that if I am God then why am I beaten up by Maya's boots. Is God beaten up by boots? Does Kṛṣṇa ever get beaten up by boots? He made everyone condemned like shoes. That is God.). That is God is great. Nobody can defeat Him. Nobody can go beyond Him. Asama-ūrdhva . Nobody is equal to Him. Asama , ūrdhva . Nobody is greater than Him, nobody is equal to Him. That is God. Nowadays there are so many Gods, everyone God. So what kind of God? If God has a competitor, then what is the God? God has no competitor. Asama-ūrdhva . Everyone is down. Asama . Not equal, not ūrdhva . Then down. Two things . . . three things are there: equal, level; upper and lower. So there is no upper and there is no equal. Then all lower. Then He's the supreme controller, īśvara parama . In the lower level there may be īśvara . But they are not parama . Subordinate. Āra saba bhṛtya . " Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa Īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya ." (CC Adi 5.142). Āra saba bhṛtya . God is one, and all others, they are subjects. Nityo nityānām . Why these two words are used? Nityānām . Everyone is nitya, but He's the supreme nitya . Cetanaś cetanānām . He's not dead body, dead matter. Cetana. Nitya . . . just as the Himalaya Parvata is standing forever. No. Cetana , living. So how He can be imperson? Himalaya Parvata may be very big, the sky may be big, but it is not cetana . Therefore this word is used, cetana , living. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). What is the difference? Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . That one nitya is providing, maintaining all other nityas . That is God. God is great. That is the meaning. So anyway, make your effort sincerely. The basic principle is this: induce them to chant and take prasādam , you'll be successful. Not very much Ustādi . Mantra de denge aur humko 35 dollars do jhamela ye sab. (We will give you a mantra, give us 35 dollars—all this is trouble.) So we'll write to you, about the books. *Yes. Go to village to village. It is very noble attempt. And if you sincerely preach, Kṛṣṇa will . . . buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te . There is no doubt. *Lakhon Guru Hai Jagat Mein Par Ek Bhi Nahi Kaam Ka, (There are many gurus in this world but all are useless,) Sab Svaarthi Hain Daam Ke Danka Bajate Naam Ka, (All are selfish for money glorifying their own names,) Visvas Ka Guru Ek Hi Hai Baaki Nahin Kuch Dhyan De, (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Jo Khaas Ki Pehchan De Wahi Sad*-Guru Pehchan Le. (And that Sad-guru is one who tells about the Supreme, identifying him.) He joined us four days back. He's from Maharashtra. I'm taking him with me. He understands the philosophy. Wherefrom it is quoted? (Marathi) Saint Tukārāma. Oh, Saint Tukārāma. He's a great saint. He is Māyāvādī or Vaiṣṇava? Tukārāma is Vaiṣṇava. Oh! Tukārāma is Vaiṣṇava. But this is different. Tukārāma met Caitanya Mahāprabhu at Mylapur. Yes. Tukārāma is a disciple of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then it is in order. What is the verse . . . *Lakhon Guru Hai Jagat Mein Par Ek Bhi Nahi Kaam Ka, (There are many gurus in this world but all are useless, Sab Svaarthi Hain Daam Ke Danka Bajate Naam Ka, (All are selfish for money glorifying their own names,) Visvas Ka Guru Ek Hi Hai Baaki Nahin Kuch Dhyan De, (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Jo Khaas Ki Pehchan De Wahi Sad*-Guru Pehchan Le. (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Nahi Hone Denge Barbaad Jo Denge Saccha Itihas Woh Hamare Guru Vaishnava Srila Prabhupāda. (He will not perish, He will give real history and testimony, he is our guru Vaisnava Srila Prabhupāda.) It's a very nice quotation. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Ye hum logon ke liye koi muskil nahi hai, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu ne . . . (This is not all difficult for us, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said . . .) "By My order." That's all. That I was explaining to Mr. Gupta. If I say this bag of bead, you take it and give it to him, then where is my difficulty? There is no difficulty. This is called bead bag. You take it and give him—and you become guru . Call a spade a spade. And if you become Ustādi , "Kurukṣetra means this body, and this means this, and this means that," then you spoil. You spoil yourself also . . . (indistinct Bengali) (end) Conversation -- September 13, 1976, Vrndavana (Letter to Sai Baba) This says: "God is an Indian." Puttaparthi. "God is an Indian. His contemporary avatāra . . ." Puttaparthi? What is that? Puttaparthi is in Andhra. "His contemporary avatāra rests in the trinity of Sirti Baba, Sai Baba, and Prem Baba to come. So Satya Sai Baba, the second of the triple incarnation, asserted in the course of a marathon interview to add, 'In my present avatāra , I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity.' " So, to whom we shall address this letter? Well, it depends where we want to send it for publishing. To this or to another magazine. He says that, "I'm avatāra ." So therefore it should be addressed to him. He says. So address to Satya Sai Baba. Where is he? At Bombay? No, he stays at this Puttaparthi or in Bangalore. Puttaparthi . . . That is a small village. Oh. Post office, Puttaparthi. And it is in, where? Bangalore? That is in Andhra. *Andhra. Hmm. "Dear Sai Baba, just recently in the Blitz paper, published on"—give the date—"we are surprised to find one article, 'God is an Indian,' and you have claimed to become an incarnation of God to save the human society. What is the ground of your claiming as incarnation? And what you have done to save the human society? Will you explain for enlightenment of us? Or many of us? We have got the list of incarnations recorded in the Vedic scriptures and their respective activities also. So where is that record in the Vedic scripture about your appearing as incarnation? Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is fully described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . ." Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnationship, or . . . (indistinct) . . . what it should be? Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation . . . There may be so many, but I mean to say Lord Kṛṣṇa is incarnation, so avatāratva . So what is the English, avatāratva ? *The incarnation*-ness, or quality of being an incarnation. But that is not . . . the quality of being an incarnation is not . . . the most literal is incarnation-ness. *Therefore say that, "Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation*-ness is fully described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Similarly, Lord Rāmacandra's incarnation-ness or Lord Buddha's incarnation-ness, Lord Caitanya's incarnation-ness, we have got full information in the Vedic literatures." *"Lord Rāma's incarnation*-ness, Lord Buddha's incarnation-ness . . ." Lord Caitanya. Oh. "Where is your incarnation is described? Will you kindly give the reference? Anyone can say like you, that one is incarnation, as it has become a fashion nowadays. But is that claim only is the proof of one's becoming incarnation? Some such unauthorized claim of becoming an incarnation is certainly ridiculous." Such . . . ". . . unauthorized claim of one's becoming an incarnation . . ." ". . . is certainly ridiculous. Then you have claimed to take form." What is he has written? "Then you have claimed to take . . ." No, no. What he has written. "In my present avatāra I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity." "So you have claimed to . . ." What is that? Again read it. "I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity." *"So you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad*-gītā that God is never formless." Find out this verse, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ. "Unintelligent men who know Me not think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme." Purport. *"Those who are worshipers of demigods have been described as less intelligent persons, and here the impersonalists are similarly described. Lord Kṛṣṇa in His personal form is here speaking before Arjuna, and still, due to ignorance, impersonalists argue that the Supreme Lord ultimately has no form. Yāmunācārya, a great devotee of the Lord in the disciplic succession from Rāmānujācārya, has written two very appropriate verses in this connection. He says: 'My dear Lord, devotees like Vyāsadeva and Nārada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing Vedānta and Upaniṣads and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead.' In the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is stated that the Personality of Godhead cannot be understood simply by study of the Vedānta literature. Only by the mercy of the Supreme Lord can the Personality of the Supreme be known. Therefore in this verse it is clearly stated that not only the worshipers of the demigods are less intelligent, but those nondevotees who are engaged in Vedānta and speculation on Vedic literature . . ." You can give up to that Yāmunācārya's quotation. What you have written? So far? Everything? Or just . . . "Only, is one's word only . . ." What you have written. "Dear Sai Baba, just recently . . ." No, no, no. Last what you have written. *"Similarly, Lord Rāma's incarnation, Lord Buddha's incarnation, Lord Caitanya's incarnation*-ness, we have got full information from the Vedic scriptures. Where is your incarnation described? Will you kindly give the reference? Anyone can say like you, that one is an incarnation, as it has become a fashion nowadays. But is that claim only the proof of one's becoming an incarnation? Such unauthorized claim of one's becoming an incarnation is certainly ridiculous. Then you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad-gītā that God is never formless." *(dictating) "Only the rascals and less intelligent class of men think that God is formless, and when He incarnates, He takes a particular form. In this connection, a verse from Yāmunācārya may be quoted as follows." You have quoted the Bhagavad*-gītā ? That quote? Well, it doesn't mention the Sanskrit here of that Yāmunācārya verse. *No, no. "In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said"—what you have written? Oh. We can put the Sanskrit, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannam (BG 7.24). No, what you have written here? *"Such unauthorized claim of one's becoming . . . then you have claimed to take a form of the formless God, but we see in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . ." That you have to quote. *Yes. So, Bhagavad*-gītā 7.24, Sanskrit and translation. "But we see in the Bhagavad-gītā . . ." Read it. "Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme." So ". . . that God is never formless. Only the rascals and less intelligent class of men think that God is formless and when He incarnates He takes a particular form. In this connection a verse from Yāmunācārya may be quoted as follows." So what is Yāmunacārya's quotation? "My dear Lord, devotees like Vyāsadeva and Nārada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead." You have to quote that verse and the meaning. But the Sanskrit wasn't give here. The Sanskrit is there. No, but this verse from Yāmunācārya. *Oh. You'll find the Sanskrit in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Oh. Which place? *In the Ādi*-līlā. Tam . It begins with tam . You can find out. Call, call him. (bell rings) Read. The Sanskrit verse is not . . . No, it's not quoted here. Tam paribhāvita , like that. There is a verse. Oh. I will find it. *Ādi*-līlā. Which volume? *Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. First volume? I think. There is, what is called, index? *Yes, for Ādi*-līlā ? Where's the verse index? Which verse is it? If you give me the verse I can . . . *It begins tam paribhāvita. T*-a-m. T-a-m. Tam paribhāvita something. You can bring here. Then? So this quote goes on. "But those who in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing the Vedānta and the *Upaniṣads* and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead." "So in this connection, the statement of *Bhāgavatam* is especially important. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Brahman is impersonal, Paramātmā is localized, and Bhagavān is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead . . ." "Brahman is the impersonal." *"Brahman is impersonal." Not "the." "Paramātmā is localized, and Bhagavān is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa after hearing Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa as follows." Quote this, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma (BG 10.12). Find out. No. Find out in the book. Puruṣaṁ śāśvatam . . . Puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam. Divyam . "So here Arjuna addresses Lord Kṛṣṇa as śāśvataṁ puruṣam, eternally the Personality of Godhead. It is never admitted that Supreme Lord is originally imperson. Puruṣam ." I have described puruṣam ? Yes. What you have written? *"When Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa after hearing Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa as follows: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma (BG 10.12), etc. Here Kṛṣṇa addresses . . . here Arjuna addresses Kṛṣṇa as śāśvataṁ puruṣam , or the eternal Personality of Godhead. It is never admitted that the Supreme Lord is originally impersonal." Then, you read the other verses. Param . . . Then? Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve devarṣir nāradas tathā . You have to quote this. Then? Read. Translation? No, no. That you have to give a quotation and . . . then? What is next verse? *In Bhagavad*-gītā after this? Āhus tvām, then next, what is next verse? Ah, "Please tell me in detail of Your divine . . ." That's all right. Next. "How should I meditate on You?" That's all right. Next. "Tell me in detail, O Janārdana, of Your mighty potencies and glories, for I never tire of hearing . . ." The point is that, "Your personality cannot be understood without Your mercy." There is a verse. (Pradyumna looks for verse) Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve . Find out that verse. Aham ? Āhus . Oh, āhus . Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ. You read just now. Yes. Next verse. Vyaktyam ? Vyaktim. Na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ . "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality." Yes, that's it. Oh, it says: *There's no verse index in any of the Ādi*-līlā . There is, but we are missing. I have the Bengali. "The all ācāryas say that Your personality, although there are so many evidences in śāstra and authorized persons, still, the rascals cannot understand." So here is another verse, āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve . So do you want to quote this verse? Hmm. Must quote. *(dictating) "So one has to accept the statement of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, how He is originally the puruṣa , or person. Impersonal Brahman is expansion of the rays of His personal body, exactly like the sunshine is expansion of the rays of the sun*-god, Vivasvān. Vivasvān is a person in the sun globe, and Kṛṣṇa is also a person who spoke the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā long, long years before He spoke the same to Arjuna. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). Therefore the conclusion is that originally God is always a person. Impersonal Brahman is emanation from the personal God. In other words, God, personal God, is not from impersonal Brahman, but impersonal Brahman is from the personal God. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā as follows." "Impersonal Brahman is an emanation of the personal God. It is not . . . it is not that the personal God is an emanation of . . . from . . . or it is that impersonal Brahman is an emanation. It is not that the personal God is an emanation of impersonal Brahman." "Impersonal Brahman is resting on the personal God, exactly like illumination of light is resting on the bulb. Not that the bulb is resting on the illuminated light." "Exactly like illumination of light is resting . . ." *". . . on the bulb, electric bulb. Not the bulb is resting on the illumination. Besides that, we learn from Bhagavad*-gītā , Second Chapter . . ." Find out that verse, "It is not that we were . . ." Na tv evāham ? Ah. "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." "So Kṛṣṇa has personally said to Arjuna that in the past He was person." So "Kṛṣṇa, in person"? No, no. Yes. "Kṛṣṇa, as a person, says to Arjuna that both of them existed in the past as person, and they'll continue to remain person in the future." "Both of them existed in the past as person, and both of them shall continue to . . ." ". . . remain as person in the future. So without knowing all this knowledge, a mūḍha accepts the incarnation of God as coming from imperson. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). Under this heading you have proved yourself to become a mūḍha . And how a mūḍha , or an ass, can become the incarnation of God?" Then? Read that Blitz paper, one after another. *Then, this is the end of his quote, and then the editor, the writer, is speaking. "This may appear an extraordinarily controversial claim to those unfamiliar with the spiritual depths of Hindu religio*-philosophy. The latter totally accepts the avatāra concept, which broadly means the descent of the divine principle into human affairs. In the Bhagavad-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa intervenes to save . . ." That is the editor's. *Yes, this is the editor's. "In the Bhagavad*-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa intervenes to save humanity from evil forces. The Purāṇas personify earth, the mother, as groaning under a similar burden to supplicate God for relief." Then heading, "Solution and cure to world's ills." "To Baba's devotees, the avatāra has similarly come to provide both the solution and the cure to a world living in terror of a nuclear holocaust. The false dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, puruṣa and deva , simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures, which prescribe . . ." What is that? "The dichotomies." Dichot . . .? Dichotomies What is that? Dichotomy means some kind of distinction, to make a distinction. He said: "The dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, puruṣa and deva . . ." Differences or analysis of differences. ". . . simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures . . ." Why not? ". . . which prescribe the assimilation of God in man and man in God as the basis of religion." This is another rascaldom. God is always distinct from man. Sai Baba also quotes later . . . he is directly saying, also, later. What he says? Now here's the quote. "Baba personifies this philosophy. As he told me, 'God is man and man is God. All of us have something of God, the divine spark, within us. All men are divine, like myself, with the spirit embodied in human flesh and bone. The only difference is that they are unaware of this Godhood.' " I'll get it for you. So? Here he says: "The mission of the present avatāra is to make everybody realize that since the same God or divinity resides in everyone, people should respect, love, and . . ." No, no. If he resides in everyone, then why he has special claim? Yes, well he says he has remembered. He remembers? How God can forget? That he says. That he says here. He says that, "Take paddy or rice by way of an illustration. Every grain of rice is enclosed in a husk. You have to remove the husk to get the grain of rice. Now husk and rice both come from the same seed. Rice is the equivalent of God in man." But still husk is not rice. You cannot say husk is rice. He says the husk . . . he says: "Rice is the equivalent of God in man, while the husk can be compared to desire which reduces God to man." No, no. "Therefore my desire is life plus desire equals man. Life minus desire equals God." *(dictating) "You are desiring to become God. There cannot be no desire. But you're unceremoniously desiring to become God, although there is no proof in the śāstras . In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is accepted that the living entities are sparks of . . . part and parcel of God, Kṛṣṇa." *"In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is accepted that the living entities . . ." ". . . are part and parcel of God. But part is never equal to the whole." (break) "So you can claim as a spark of God, as every living entity can claim, but you cannot claim as the . . ." ". . . the Supreme Person with full power. That is misleading. You can show a little magic, as other magicians also can show . . ." "You can show a little magic, as other magicians can also show." ". . . but you cannot show the full magic, as Kṛṣṇa displayed or Lord Rāmacandra displayed. Therefore your claim as a full power is completely false and blasphemous." "Therefore your claim for full power is completely false . . ." ". . . and blasphemous." In this way find out. Completely Māyāvādī. Yes. Completely. Yes. Now someone may bring up the one point, they say: "Well, if an avatāra comes, if He must show all kinds of great opulences and powers," then he says: "sometimes the incarnation shows this, but sometimes, like when Lord Caitanya appeared, He didn't show viśvarūpa or . . ." *But He never claimed that "I am avatāra ." But we understand from the śāstric evidence. He never claimed. Rather, when He was addressed as Kṛṣṇa He blocked His ears, "You don't say like that." He never claimed. He fully displayed Himself as a devotee, not Bhagavān. Therefore Gaurāṅgavāda is illegal. Gaurāṅga*-nāgarī . That is illegal. Moha-vāda or something like that. *Gaurāṅga*-nāgarī , mentioning Lord Caitanya in the role of Kṛṣṇa dancing with the . . . In this way, find out the faulty statement and give him proof. He can claim . . . hmm. That's all. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- September 13, 1976, Vrndavana (Letter to Sai Baba) This says: "God is an Indian." Puttaparthi. "God is an Indian. His contemporary avatāra . . ." Puttaparthi? What is that? Puttaparthi is in Andhra. "His contemporary avatāra rests in the trinity of Sirti Baba, Sai Baba, and Prem Baba to come. So Satya Sai Baba, the second of the triple incarnation, asserted in the course of a marathon interview to add, 'In my present avatāra , I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity.' " So, to whom we shall address this letter? Well, it depends where we want to send it for publishing. To this or to another magazine. He says that, "I'm avatāra ." So therefore it should be addressed to him. He says. So address to Satya Sai Baba. Where is he? At Bombay? No, he stays at this Puttaparthi or in Bangalore. Puttaparthi . . . That is a small village. Oh. Post office, Puttaparthi. And it is in, where? Bangalore? That is in Andhra. *Andhra. Hmm. "Dear Sai Baba, just recently in the Blitz paper, published on"—give the date—"we are surprised to find one article, 'God is an Indian,' and you have claimed to become an incarnation of God to save the human society. What is the ground of your claiming as incarnation? And what you have done to save the human society? Will you explain for enlightenment of us? Or many of us? We have got the list of incarnations recorded in the Vedic scriptures and their respective activities also. So where is that record in the Vedic scripture about your appearing as incarnation? Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is fully described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . ." Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnationship, or . . . (indistinct) . . . what it should be? Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation . . . There may be so many, but I mean to say Lord Kṛṣṇa is incarnation, so avatāratva . So what is the English, avatāratva ? *The incarnation*-ness, or quality of being an incarnation. But that is not . . . the quality of being an incarnation is not . . . the most literal is incarnation-ness. *Therefore say that, "Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation*-ness is fully described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Similarly, Lord Rāmacandra's incarnation-ness or Lord Buddha's incarnation-ness, Lord Caitanya's incarnation-ness, we have got full information in the Vedic literatures." *"Lord Rāma's incarnation*-ness, Lord Buddha's incarnation-ness . . ." Lord Caitanya. Oh. "Where is your incarnation is described? Will you kindly give the reference? Anyone can say like you, that one is incarnation, as it has become a fashion nowadays. But is that claim only is the proof of one's becoming incarnation? Some such unauthorized claim of becoming an incarnation is certainly ridiculous." Such . . . ". . . unauthorized claim of one's becoming an incarnation . . ." ". . . is certainly ridiculous. Then you have claimed to take form." What is he has written? "Then you have claimed to take . . ." No, no. What he has written. "In my present avatāra I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity." "So you have claimed to . . ." What is that? Again read it. "I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity." *"So you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad*-gītā that God is never formless." Find out this verse, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ. "Unintelligent men who know Me not think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme." Purport. *"Those who are worshipers of demigods have been described as less intelligent persons, and here the impersonalists are similarly described. Lord Kṛṣṇa in His personal form is here speaking before Arjuna, and still, due to ignorance, impersonalists argue that the Supreme Lord ultimately has no form. Yāmunācārya, a great devotee of the Lord in the disciplic succession from Rāmānujācārya, has written two very appropriate verses in this connection. He says: 'My dear Lord, devotees like Vyāsadeva and Nārada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing Vedānta and Upaniṣads and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead.' In the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is stated that the Personality of Godhead cannot be understood simply by study of the Vedānta literature. Only by the mercy of the Supreme Lord can the Personality of the Supreme be known. Therefore in this verse it is clearly stated that not only the worshipers of the demigods are less intelligent, but those nondevotees who are engaged in Vedānta and speculation on Vedic literature . . ." You can give up to that Yāmunācārya's quotation. What you have written? So far? Everything? Or just . . . "Only, is one's word only . . ." What you have written. "Dear Sai Baba, just recently . . ." No, no, no. Last what you have written. *"Similarly, Lord Rāma's incarnation, Lord Buddha's incarnation, Lord Caitanya's incarnation*-ness, we have got full information from the Vedic scriptures. Where is your incarnation described? Will you kindly give the reference? Anyone can say like you, that one is an incarnation, as it has become a fashion nowadays. But is that claim only the proof of one's becoming an incarnation? Such unauthorized claim of one's becoming an incarnation is certainly ridiculous. Then you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad-gītā that God is never formless." *(dictating) "Only the rascals and less intelligent class of men think that God is formless, and when He incarnates, He takes a particular form. In this connection, a verse from Yāmunācārya may be quoted as follows." You have quoted the Bhagavad*-gītā ? That quote? Well, it doesn't mention the Sanskrit here of that Yāmunācārya verse. *No, no. "In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said"—what you have written? Oh. We can put the Sanskrit, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannam (BG 7.24). No, what you have written here? *"Such unauthorized claim of one's becoming . . . then you have claimed to take a form of the formless God, but we see in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . ." That you have to quote. *Yes. So, Bhagavad*-gītā 7.24, Sanskrit and translation. "But we see in the Bhagavad-gītā . . ." Read it. "Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme." So ". . . that God is never formless. Only the rascals and less intelligent class of men think that God is formless and when He incarnates He takes a particular form. In this connection a verse from Yāmunācārya may be quoted as follows." So what is Yāmunacārya's quotation? "My dear Lord, devotees like Vyāsadeva and Nārada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead." You have to quote that verse and the meaning. But the Sanskrit wasn't give here. The Sanskrit is there. No, but this verse from Yāmunācārya. *Oh. You'll find the Sanskrit in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Oh. Which place? *In the Ādi*-līlā. Tam . It begins with tam . You can find out. Call, call him. (bell rings) Read. The Sanskrit verse is not . . . No, it's not quoted here. Tam paribhāvita , like that. There is a verse. Oh. I will find it. *Ādi*-līlā. Which volume? *Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. First volume? I think. There is, what is called, index? *Yes, for Ādi*-līlā ? Where's the verse index? Which verse is it? If you give me the verse I can . . . *It begins tam paribhāvita. T*-a-m. T-a-m. Tam paribhāvita something. You can bring here. Then? So this quote goes on. "But those who in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing the Vedānta and the *Upaniṣads* and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead." "So in this connection, the statement of *Bhāgavatam* is especially important. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Brahman is impersonal, Paramātmā is localized, and Bhagavān is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead . . ." "Brahman is the impersonal." *"Brahman is impersonal." Not "the." "Paramātmā is localized, and Bhagavān is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa after hearing Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa as follows." Quote this, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma (BG 10.12). Find out. No. Find out in the book. Puruṣaṁ śāśvatam . . . Puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam. Divyam . "So here Arjuna addresses Lord Kṛṣṇa as śāśvataṁ puruṣam, eternally the Personality of Godhead. It is never admitted that Supreme Lord is originally imperson. Puruṣam ." I have described puruṣam ? Yes. What you have written? *"When Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa after hearing Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa as follows: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma (BG 10.12), etc. Here Kṛṣṇa addresses . . . here Arjuna addresses Kṛṣṇa as śāśvataṁ puruṣam , or the eternal Personality of Godhead. It is never admitted that the Supreme Lord is originally impersonal." Then, you read the other verses. Param . . . Then? Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve devarṣir nāradas tathā . You have to quote this. Then? Read. Translation? No, no. That you have to give a quotation and . . . then? What is next verse? *In Bhagavad*-gītā after this? Āhus tvām, then next, what is next verse? Ah, "Please tell me in detail of Your divine . . ." That's all right. Next. "How should I meditate on You?" That's all right. Next. "Tell me in detail, O Janārdana, of Your mighty potencies and glories, for I never tire of hearing . . ." The point is that, "Your personality cannot be understood without Your mercy." There is a verse. (Pradyumna looks for verse) Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve . Find out that verse. Aham ? Āhus . Oh, āhus . Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ. You read just now. Yes. Next verse. Vyaktyam ? Vyaktim. Na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ . "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality." Yes, that's it. Oh, it says: *There's no verse index in any of the Ādi*-līlā . There is, but we are missing. I have the Bengali. "The all ācāryas say that Your personality, although there are so many evidences in śāstra and authorized persons, still, the rascals cannot understand." So here is another verse, āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve . So do you want to quote this verse? Hmm. Must quote. *(dictating) "So one has to accept the statement of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, how He is originally the puruṣa , or person. Impersonal Brahman is expansion of the rays of His personal body, exactly like the sunshine is expansion of the rays of the sun*-god, Vivasvān. Vivasvān is a person in the sun globe, and Kṛṣṇa is also a person who spoke the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā long, long years before He spoke the same to Arjuna. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). Therefore the conclusion is that originally God is always a person. Impersonal Brahman is emanation from the personal God. In other words, God, personal God, is not from impersonal Brahman, but impersonal Brahman is from the personal God. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā as follows." "Impersonal Brahman is an emanation of the personal God. It is not . . . it is not that the personal God is an emanation of . . . from . . . or it is that impersonal Brahman is an emanation. It is not that the personal God is an emanation of impersonal Brahman." "Impersonal Brahman is resting on the personal God, exactly like illumination of light is resting on the bulb. Not that the bulb is resting on the illuminated light." "Exactly like illumination of light is resting . . ." *". . . on the bulb, electric bulb. Not the bulb is resting on the illumination. Besides that, we learn from Bhagavad*-gītā , Second Chapter . . ." Find out that verse, "It is not that we were . . ." Na tv evāham ? Ah. "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." "So Kṛṣṇa has personally said to Arjuna that in the past He was person." So "Kṛṣṇa, in person"? No, no. Yes. "Kṛṣṇa, as a person, says to Arjuna that both of them existed in the past as person, and they'll continue to remain person in the future." "Both of them existed in the past as person, and both of them shall continue to . . ." ". . . remain as person in the future. So without knowing all this knowledge, a mūḍha accepts the incarnation of God as coming from imperson. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). Under this heading you have proved yourself to become a mūḍha . And how a mūḍha , or an ass, can become the incarnation of God?" Then? Read that Blitz paper, one after another. *Then, this is the end of his quote, and then the editor, the writer, is speaking. "This may appear an extraordinarily controversial claim to those unfamiliar with the spiritual depths of Hindu religio*-philosophy. The latter totally accepts the avatāra concept, which broadly means the descent of the divine principle into human affairs. In the Bhagavad-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa intervenes to save . . ." That is the editor's. *Yes, this is the editor's. "In the Bhagavad*-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa intervenes to save humanity from evil forces. The Purāṇas personify earth, the mother, as groaning under a similar burden to supplicate God for relief." Then heading, "Solution and cure to world's ills." "To Baba's devotees, the avatāra has similarly come to provide both the solution and the cure to a world living in terror of a nuclear holocaust. The false dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, puruṣa and deva , simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures, which prescribe . . ." What is that? "The dichotomies." Dichot . . .? Dichotomies What is that? Dichotomy means some kind of distinction, to make a distinction. He said: "The dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, puruṣa and deva . . ." Differences or analysis of differences. ". . . simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures . . ." Why not? ". . . which prescribe the assimilation of God in man and man in God as the basis of religion." This is another rascaldom. God is always distinct from man. Sai Baba also quotes later . . . he is directly saying, also, later. What he says? Now here's the quote. "Baba personifies this philosophy. As he told me, 'God is man and man is God. All of us have something of God, the divine spark, within us. All men are divine, like myself, with the spirit embodied in human flesh and bone. The only difference is that they are unaware of this Godhood.' " I'll get it for you. So? Here he says: "The mission of the present avatāra is to make everybody realize that since the same God or divinity resides in everyone, people should respect, love, and . . ." No, no. If he resides in everyone, then why he has special claim? Yes, well he says he has remembered. He remembers? How God can forget? That he says. That he says here. He says that, "Take paddy or rice by way of an illustration. Every grain of rice is enclosed in a husk. You have to remove the husk to get the grain of rice. Now husk and rice both come from the same seed. Rice is the equivalent of God in man." But still husk is not rice. You cannot say husk is rice. He says the husk . . . he says: "Rice is the equivalent of God in man, while the husk can be compared to desire which reduces God to man." No, no. "Therefore my desire is life plus desire equals man. Life minus desire equals God." *(dictating) "You are desiring to become God. There cannot be no desire. But you're unceremoniously desiring to become God, although there is no proof in the śāstras . In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is accepted that the living entities are sparks of . . . part and parcel of God, Kṛṣṇa." *"In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is accepted that the living entities . . ." ". . . are part and parcel of God. But part is never equal to the whole." (break) "So you can claim as a spark of God, as every living entity can claim, but you cannot claim as the . . ." ". . . the Supreme Person with full power. That is misleading. You can show a little magic, as other magicians also can show . . ." "You can show a little magic, as other magicians can also show." ". . . but you cannot show the full magic, as Kṛṣṇa displayed or Lord Rāmacandra displayed. Therefore your claim as a full power is completely false and blasphemous." "Therefore your claim for full power is completely false . . ." ". . . and blasphemous." In this way find out. Completely Māyāvādī. Yes. Completely. Yes. Now someone may bring up the one point, they say: "Well, if an avatāra comes, if He must show all kinds of great opulences and powers," then he says: "sometimes the incarnation shows this, but sometimes, like when Lord Caitanya appeared, He didn't show viśvarūpa or . . ." *But He never claimed that "I am avatāra ." But we understand from the śāstric evidence. He never claimed. Rather, when He was addressed as Kṛṣṇa He blocked His ears, "You don't say like that." He never claimed. He fully displayed Himself as a devotee, not Bhagavān. Therefore Gaurāṅgavāda is illegal. Gaurāṅga*-nāgarī . That is illegal. Moha-vāda or something like that. *Gaurāṅga*-nāgarī , mentioning Lord Caitanya in the role of Kṛṣṇa dancing with the . . . In this way, find out the faulty statement and give him proof. He can claim . . . hmm. That's all. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- September 16, 1976, Vrndavana All the Vaiṣṇavas, they are expert. Just like Rūpa, Sanātana, expert managment . . . (indistinct) . . . expert, even in worldly affairs. Not that "I am so much big devotee that I cannot manage worldly affairs." Expert. Must be expert. Dakṣa. (pause) So she can give me the fruits now. So . . . (break) . . . intelligent policy to kill India's spiritual status. To kill India's spiritual status? That was their policy. Because there was one Britisher politician, Lord Macaulay. His report was . . . he studied the whole Indian situation. They were very expert politicians. So he reported that "If you keep Indians as Indians, you'll never be able to rule over them. They must be trained up in such a way that they would think their own culture as useless; this Western culture is very good. That impression must be there. Otherwise, you cannot rule over them." So the education and everything was going on very silently on this principle. Imperceptibly they introduced this. Hmm. That is their administration. And that was going on for the last two hundred years. So India lost. At last moment is . . . (break) . . . educated persons, they lost. And the mass of people, they were not educated. They have not lost, but they don't find any good example by the leaders. No encouragement. No encouragement. They are simply staying somehow or other in their original culture, but there is no encouragement by the leaders. But the leaders have lost. This is the position. Just like Jawaharlal Nehru, he was a complete rascal about Indian culture. He did not think that Indian culture has any value. Therefore he wrote the book, Discovery of India . You know that? He has . . . it is little popular. Discovery of India. So long India was not discovered by opiate or something like, as the Russians say. Now it is now discovered. And that its leaders have to become Anglicized or Europeanized; industry, the Western way of living, eating, and everything. Pollution. Everything. Abortion. *Yes, also. Otherwise, we have seen in our childhood how happy people were there. Simple. If one has five rupees' income per month, he's happy. I've seen it. Husband, wife, a small family, if he has got five rupees' income, they can maintain very nicely, happily. Why not? Suppose he has got five rupees' income. The rice was selling at four rupees. So two person, say one*-fourth kg, one-fourth share each. A gentleman cannot eat more than that. So means half a share. And the whole month, fifteen share. It is about one rupee eight annas . And further, one rupees eight annas add for vegetables and other things. With three rupees they can maintain, the husband and wife. And two rupees still there, he can spend for other purposes. I have seen it. Fresh vegetables, rice, this and . . . just like with banana leaf. The pots were of earthen, the wife is cooking, and she's utilizing dry foliage as fuel, a little temperature, everything is cooked. The husband takes one banana leaf and spreads, and the wife gives sufficient rice, vegetables. And things were so cheap, I have seen it. And fresh. Yes, everything, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Anything fresh. Any cultivator, he has got little land surrounding his house, and he's growing vegetable like squash, chilis, and some spinage . . . spinach? Spinach, śāka . Yes. And . . . Eggplant. *Eggplant. And this banana. So whatever he's grown he takes in a basket, goes to the market, immediately sold. And they're all fresh. Collected in the morning, and it is sold by eight o'clock. All fresh vegetables. There was no export, there was no facility of transport. These rascals introduced transport, big*-scale transport, this railway. There was no railway. So transport means this villager, instead of selling locally or one mile away, he will dispatch in Calcutta. The Calcutta people, they are sitting on table and smoking, and printing paper money and exploit. We had this experience when we were traveling with our bus from Calcutta to Vṛndāvana. We would want to buy watermelon from people who were growing right on the bank of the river, and he would have huge piles. And he would say: "No, I'm not selling. I'm transporting these to Delhi, where one cannot get watermelon." He's getting five times the price he would get in his local . . . And from Vṛndāvana, we have seen, they are exporting that drumbeats? Vṛndāvana? Drumsticks. Huh? Drumstick. So the transport is a dangerous thing. Yes, this is a scheme. A local man cannot get. He's starving. And the man in big cities, he's doing nothing, he simply has got paper to sign, and paper money he's attracting. All production, and they are starving. This is modern civilization. Everything—milk, vegetable, fish, everything, this chānā . Otherwise, within the village you can get everything. Village economy, everything very cheap. And as soon as they got these transport facilities, the local men, they could not eat, and these lazy rascals, they are getting everything. Big, big cities like Calcutta, Bombay, they, millions of population, they are not producing anything. The producer is different man. They are simply artificially cheating them by paper money, and they take it. This is modern civilization. And on the basis of this transporting of food, other industries grow. Like for instance packing. Sometimes the package costs more than the item which is being packaged. Especially in your country. Packing is more important than the . . . they sent me some presentation in a huge package. Consequently, those persons who are farmers, they become discouraged. Now it has become a problem how to throw these packings. Yes, this is another problem. Yes. Plastic they can't dispose of, glass. Simply creating problems. Lavana haila ithe gatila jagya . This modern civilization, they could not make any profit. They have created some problems, that's all. Very dangerous civilization. There was one writer, he wrote a book about the cities, these big modern cities. And he said that in the future the price of labor will become so enormous that to break down the old buildings in these cities, which have been built to become obsolete, will be impossible. And the whole place will become swamp land by that. (end) Conversation -- September 16, 1976, Vrndavana All the Vaiṣṇavas, they are expert. Just like Rūpa, Sanātana, expert managment . . . (indistinct) . . . expert, even in worldly affairs. Not that "I am so much big devotee that I cannot manage worldly affairs." Expert. Must be expert. Dakṣa. (pause) So she can give me the fruits now. So . . . (break) . . . intelligent policy to kill India's spiritual status. To kill India's spiritual status? That was their policy. Because there was one Britisher politician, Lord Macaulay. His report was . . . he studied the whole Indian situation. They were very expert politicians. So he reported that "If you keep Indians as Indians, you'll never be able to rule over them. They must be trained up in such a way that they would think their own culture as useless; this Western culture is very good. That impression must be there. Otherwise, you cannot rule over them." So the education and everything was going on very silently on this principle. Imperceptibly they introduced this. Hmm. That is their administration. And that was going on for the last two hundred years. So India lost. At last moment is . . . (break) . . . educated persons, they lost. And the mass of people, they were not educated. They have not lost, but they don't find any good example by the leaders. No encouragement. No encouragement. They are simply staying somehow or other in their original culture, but there is no encouragement by the leaders. But the leaders have lost. This is the position. Just like Jawaharlal Nehru, he was a complete rascal about Indian culture. He did not think that Indian culture has any value. Therefore he wrote the book, Discovery of India . You know that? He has . . . it is little popular. Discovery of India. So long India was not discovered by opiate or something like, as the Russians say. Now it is now discovered. And that its leaders have to become Anglicized or Europeanized; industry, the Western way of living, eating, and everything. Pollution. Everything. Abortion. *Yes, also. Otherwise, we have seen in our childhood how happy people were there. Simple. If one has five rupees' income per month, he's happy. I've seen it. Husband, wife, a small family, if he has got five rupees' income, they can maintain very nicely, happily. Why not? Suppose he has got five rupees' income. The rice was selling at four rupees. So two person, say one*-fourth kg, one-fourth share each. A gentleman cannot eat more than that. So means half a share. And the whole month, fifteen share. It is about one rupee eight annas . And further, one rupees eight annas add for vegetables and other things. With three rupees they can maintain, the husband and wife. And two rupees still there, he can spend for other purposes. I have seen it. Fresh vegetables, rice, this and . . . just like with banana leaf. The pots were of earthen, the wife is cooking, and she's utilizing dry foliage as fuel, a little temperature, everything is cooked. The husband takes one banana leaf and spreads, and the wife gives sufficient rice, vegetables. And things were so cheap, I have seen it. And fresh. Yes, everything, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Anything fresh. Any cultivator, he has got little land surrounding his house, and he's growing vegetable like squash, chilis, and some spinage . . . spinach? Spinach, śāka . Yes. And . . . Eggplant. *Eggplant. And this banana. So whatever he's grown he takes in a basket, goes to the market, immediately sold. And they're all fresh. Collected in the morning, and it is sold by eight o'clock. All fresh vegetables. There was no export, there was no facility of transport. These rascals introduced transport, big*-scale transport, this railway. There was no railway. So transport means this villager, instead of selling locally or one mile away, he will dispatch in Calcutta. The Calcutta people, they are sitting on table and smoking, and printing paper money and exploit. We had this experience when we were traveling with our bus from Calcutta to Vṛndāvana. We would want to buy watermelon from people who were growing right on the bank of the river, and he would have huge piles. And he would say: "No, I'm not selling. I'm transporting these to Delhi, where one cannot get watermelon." He's getting five times the price he would get in his local . . . And from Vṛndāvana, we have seen, they are exporting that drumbeats? Vṛndāvana? Drumsticks. Huh? Drumstick. So the transport is a dangerous thing. Yes, this is a scheme. A local man cannot get. He's starving. And the man in big cities, he's doing nothing, he simply has got paper to sign, and paper money he's attracting. All production, and they are starving. This is modern civilization. Everything—milk, vegetable, fish, everything, this chānā . Otherwise, within the village you can get everything. Village economy, everything very cheap. And as soon as they got these transport facilities, the local men, they could not eat, and these lazy rascals, they are getting everything. Big, big cities like Calcutta, Bombay, they, millions of population, they are not producing anything. The producer is different man. They are simply artificially cheating them by paper money, and they take it. This is modern civilization. And on the basis of this transporting of food, other industries grow. Like for instance packing. Sometimes the package costs more than the item which is being packaged. Especially in your country. Packing is more important than the . . . they sent me some presentation in a huge package. Consequently, those persons who are farmers, they become discouraged. Now it has become a problem how to throw these packings. Yes, this is another problem. Yes. Plastic they can't dispose of, glass. Simply creating problems. Lavana haila ithe gatila jagya . This modern civilization, they could not make any profit. They have created some problems, that's all. Very dangerous civilization. There was one writer, he wrote a book about the cities, these big modern cities. And he said that in the future the price of labor will become so enormous that to break down the old buildings in these cities, which have been built to become obsolete, will be impossible. And the whole place will become swamp land by that. (end) Conversation -- September 17, 1976, Vrndavana *. . . one horse within the mouth—that is God. One hill. One Pūtanā, sucking the breast, her life goes. That is God. Why shall I take some cheap God? We are not so foolish. Here is the . . . so many great saintly persons hearing about God. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva*-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ ( SB 1.2.17). They are fools, hearing about Kṛṣṇa? Such great, great personalities? And Śukadeva Gosvāmī is speaking. Are they fools? All of them fools? One, two may be fool. They were wholesale fools? All the great personalities, they're all fools? Asita, Devala, Vyāsa, Nārada—all big personalities—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu—they're all fools? I may be fool. They are not fools. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Why shall I accept a rascal God? Varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ (SB 2.1.1). "Oh, you want to hear about Kṛṣṇa?" Varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ . Śukadeva was praising: "Oh, glorious, you have taken . . . yes." Here is God. Breathing, and innumerable universes are coming. Here is God. Sleeping and breathing is not unnatural. He is also— nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ ( Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13)—like us. But like not us. He can breathe and . . . that is the difference. Breathing is common. I breathe, He breathes. That's all right. But His breathing, my breathing is not the same breathing. He eats; I eat. That's all right. But when He eats, Mother Yaśodā sees all the universes are within Him. *They cannot understand this. That we are equal, that's all right, but there is difference. So far I am a living being, He's also a living being, but He's supreme living being. How? Because I breathe, some dust comes and goes out, and when He breathes some universes come out. This is the difference. So because He is breathing and I am breathing, therefore equal? No. Paśyaty acakṣuḥ . He sees, but not like us. Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). He's seeing every particular thing, anywhere. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu. I can see within my limit, or I can feel pains and pleasure within my . . . but He knows everything, everywhere. Sarva-kṣetreṣu. And because I cannot become like Him, therefore Māyāvādīs say kalpana , "This is imagination." He wants to make God like himself, and he wants to become like God. Therefore all description about God he thinks imagination, kalpana. Kalpana. Dr. Frog. Huh? "More than this water, the . . .? How it is possible? Atlantic Ocean, very, very big. What is that big? Maybe four feet, five?" Yes. Otherwise kalpana . It it is not within his "feet" estimation, then he's kalpana , imagination. This is their knowledge. I can think of three feet, four feet, five feet, ten feet, hundred feet—like that. And when I'm informed, "No, no, it is unlimited feet." "Ah, this is kalpana ." This is going on. *So, what other news? I have to send one letter to the governor. (break) Sūtyām abhijāta*-kovidāḥ. Yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan vipra mahad-guṇas tathā (SB 1.16.1). Where this class of literature is now? Yathā sūtyā , in the maternity home or maternity room, sūtyā. Abhijāta-kovidāḥ , the astrologers who can estimate the newly born child's destiny. Whatever they predicted, according to them, yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan . They said that, "This child will be like this"—exactly he became. Parīkṣid dvija-varya-śikṣayā, and being trained up by first-class brāhmaṇas , and the child came perfectly the king. Where is that king? There're no kings. *Where is that president? They're all drunkards, woman*-hunters, meat-eaters. Exactly according to prediction he became a young man, and he was entrusted with kingdom, "Now you rule." (sings verse) Each verse is a song. I wanted our students should do that. To learn how to sing them nicely. To learn how to sing them? *Yes. I can give them the tune. (Sanskrit) (break) . . . ghnantaṁ go*-mithunaṁ padā. This is Kali-yuga's king. Nṛpa-liṅga : dressed like king. Nṛpa-liṅga-dharam , but śūdra. Nṛpa-liṅga-dharaṁ śūdraṁ ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā (SB 1.16.4). Very expert in cow killing. That's a very accurate prediction. *Third*-class, fourth-class men, dressed like president and king. Business: plunder money from the citizens and kill cow. (pause) *Nineteen sixty*-five, 17 September, I landed at Boston. You've done a lot of things since then. (laughs) Changed the world. Much water has gone down. (indistinct exchange with another devotee) (end) Conversation -- September 17, 1976, Vrndavana *. . . one horse within the mouth—that is God. One hill. One Pūtanā, sucking the breast, her life goes. That is God. Why shall I take some cheap God? We are not so foolish. Here is the . . . so many great saintly persons hearing about God. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva*-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ ( SB 1.2.17). They are fools, hearing about Kṛṣṇa? Such great, great personalities? And Śukadeva Gosvāmī is speaking. Are they fools? All of them fools? One, two may be fool. They were wholesale fools? All the great personalities, they're all fools? Asita, Devala, Vyāsa, Nārada—all big personalities—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu—they're all fools? I may be fool. They are not fools. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Why shall I accept a rascal God? Varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ (SB 2.1.1). "Oh, you want to hear about Kṛṣṇa?" Varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ . Śukadeva was praising: "Oh, glorious, you have taken . . . yes." Here is God. Breathing, and innumerable universes are coming. Here is God. Sleeping and breathing is not unnatural. He is also— nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ ( Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13)—like us. But like not us. He can breathe and . . . that is the difference. Breathing is common. I breathe, He breathes. That's all right. But His breathing, my breathing is not the same breathing. He eats; I eat. That's all right. But when He eats, Mother Yaśodā sees all the universes are within Him. *They cannot understand this. That we are equal, that's all right, but there is difference. So far I am a living being, He's also a living being, but He's supreme living being. How? Because I breathe, some dust comes and goes out, and when He breathes some universes come out. This is the difference. So because He is breathing and I am breathing, therefore equal? No. Paśyaty acakṣuḥ . He sees, but not like us. Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). He's seeing every particular thing, anywhere. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu. I can see within my limit, or I can feel pains and pleasure within my . . . but He knows everything, everywhere. Sarva-kṣetreṣu. And because I cannot become like Him, therefore Māyāvādīs say kalpana , "This is imagination." He wants to make God like himself, and he wants to become like God. Therefore all description about God he thinks imagination, kalpana. Kalpana. Dr. Frog. Huh? "More than this water, the . . .? How it is possible? Atlantic Ocean, very, very big. What is that big? Maybe four feet, five?" Yes. Otherwise kalpana . It it is not within his "feet" estimation, then he's kalpana , imagination. This is their knowledge. I can think of three feet, four feet, five feet, ten feet, hundred feet—like that. And when I'm informed, "No, no, it is unlimited feet." "Ah, this is kalpana ." This is going on. *So, what other news? I have to send one letter to the governor. (break) Sūtyām abhijāta*-kovidāḥ. Yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan vipra mahad-guṇas tathā (SB 1.16.1). Where this class of literature is now? Yathā sūtyā , in the maternity home or maternity room, sūtyā. Abhijāta-kovidāḥ , the astrologers who can estimate the newly born child's destiny. Whatever they predicted, according to them, yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan . They said that, "This child will be like this"—exactly he became. Parīkṣid dvija-varya-śikṣayā, and being trained up by first-class brāhmaṇas , and the child came perfectly the king. Where is that king? There're no kings. *Where is that president? They're all drunkards, woman*-hunters, meat-eaters. Exactly according to prediction he became a young man, and he was entrusted with kingdom, "Now you rule." (sings verse) Each verse is a song. I wanted our students should do that. To learn how to sing them nicely. To learn how to sing them? *Yes. I can give them the tune. (Sanskrit) (break) . . . ghnantaṁ go*-mithunaṁ padā. This is Kali-yuga's king. Nṛpa-liṅga : dressed like king. Nṛpa-liṅga-dharam , but śūdra. Nṛpa-liṅga-dharaṁ śūdraṁ ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā (SB 1.16.4). Very expert in cow killing. That's a very accurate prediction. *Third*-class, fourth-class men, dressed like president and king. Business: plunder money from the citizens and kill cow. (pause) *Nineteen sixty*-five, 17 September, I landed at Boston. You've done a lot of things since then. (laughs) Changed the world. Much water has gone down. (indistinct exchange with another devotee) (end) Conversation -- September 26, 1976, Vrndavana I was living with servant and two sons. So I helped to start . . . (break) . . . took from my friends, I collected some money and . . . so other important members said: "Why Abhaya Bābu is living separately? He should be the president of the Bombay." I never said, but they said. I was living separately. Then Prabhupāda requested, I mean to say, pleaded in my behalf so many things. He said three words, "It is better that he is living outside your company. He will do. When time will come, he'll do himself everything. You haven't got to recommend him." These very words. (break) . . . Kṛṣṇa require any president or any GBC. He's giving chance to everyone, that's all. Otherwise thousands of presidents and thousands of GBC may come and go, His work will go on. Kṛṣṇa is complete Himself. He doesn't require anyone's help. That is Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . sei hetu pracāra . One who has got life, he can preach. One is dead, what he can do? He used to say. And I'm convinced, Prabhupāda, that in this temple, right here, you can make every week at least two, three Life Members, and you can sell thousands of rupees' worth of books. Yesterday I started one man, this boy Ikṣvāku from Germany. I said: "Just go around and greet people and show them around and sell them books." And the first few hours he sold seventy rupees' worth of books. And if I have a few people who just walk around and they walk right up to the guests and say: "How do you do? My name is so and so. I come from New York. What is your name? Where do you come from?" Last night all visitors came, all respectable gentlemen. Last night four people came, they were all big businessmen. One man had been working in a big business in Germany. He spoke German perfectly well. He was an Indian man. He lives in Agra. And so many people. Because Vṛndāvana is the heart of India, every Indian comes once in his lifetime to Vṛndāvana . . . Oh yes. . . . if not more times. And everyone will come to our temple. Due to Vṛndāvana, our temple is advertised all over India. Everyone says. We haven't even got to go out. We have simply to receive people nicely. *Yes. (break) . . . from Vṛndāvana. I was residing here after retirement. That Rādhā*-Dāmodara, they are being paid monthly? Yes. You got the receipt? No, I don't have it in my care. Huh? I don't have it personally. Then who keeps it? I don't know. I have to check. You do not know? Who is paying? I'll check with Viśvambhara. I don't know, to be quite honest. Huh? To be perfectly honest, I don't know. You do not know? How is that? Because I've been away so much, Prabhupāda. All right. Still, you should know what is this and what is . . . Yes, I know. (break) . . . he was going to cleanse these rooms. So whether this is going on or not, you do not know. Then who knows it? Viśvambhara will know, because he took full charge in my absence for all these things. *You want me to take care of it? Your rooms at Rādhā*-Dāmodara? You want me to take care that they're cleaned and kept? That was being done. Yes, I had it being done once a week. So nobody knows what is being done or . . . (break) So one was to control horses. So he became very much anxious, "What kind of whip I shall have to keep?" First he has to get a horse. "Then, first of all, rascal, where is your horse?" (laughs) He became very much anxious, "What kind of whip?" Okay. I'll get the horses. And anyone who can purchase a horse, he can very easily purchase any whip. Not that we shall be very much anxious for the whip first. First of all, let us have a horse. The difficulty is that no horse is coming. That is the difficulty. Attract horse, and you'll find so many. Okay. (end) Conversation -- September 26, 1976, Vrndavana I was living with servant and two sons. So I helped to start . . . (break) . . . took from my friends, I collected some money and . . . so other important members said: "Why Abhaya Bābu is living separately? He should be the president of the Bombay." I never said, but they said. I was living separately. Then Prabhupāda requested, I mean to say, pleaded in my behalf so many things. He said three words, "It is better that he is living outside your company. He will do. When time will come, he'll do himself everything. You haven't got to recommend him." These very words. (break) . . . Kṛṣṇa require any president or any GBC. He's giving chance to everyone, that's all. Otherwise thousands of presidents and thousands of GBC may come and go, His work will go on. Kṛṣṇa is complete Himself. He doesn't require anyone's help. That is Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . sei hetu pracāra . One who has got life, he can preach. One is dead, what he can do? He used to say. And I'm convinced, Prabhupāda, that in this temple, right here, you can make every week at least two, three Life Members, and you can sell thousands of rupees' worth of books. Yesterday I started one man, this boy Ikṣvāku from Germany. I said: "Just go around and greet people and show them around and sell them books." And the first few hours he sold seventy rupees' worth of books. And if I have a few people who just walk around and they walk right up to the guests and say: "How do you do? My name is so and so. I come from New York. What is your name? Where do you come from?" Last night all visitors came, all respectable gentlemen. Last night four people came, they were all big businessmen. One man had been working in a big business in Germany. He spoke German perfectly well. He was an Indian man. He lives in Agra. And so many people. Because Vṛndāvana is the heart of India, every Indian comes once in his lifetime to Vṛndāvana . . . Oh yes. . . . if not more times. And everyone will come to our temple. Due to Vṛndāvana, our temple is advertised all over India. Everyone says. We haven't even got to go out. We have simply to receive people nicely. *Yes. (break) . . . from Vṛndāvana. I was residing here after retirement. That Rādhā*-Dāmodara, they are being paid monthly? Yes. You got the receipt? No, I don't have it in my care. Huh? I don't have it personally. Then who keeps it? I don't know. I have to check. You do not know? Who is paying? I'll check with Viśvambhara. I don't know, to be quite honest. Huh? To be perfectly honest, I don't know. You do not know? How is that? Because I've been away so much, Prabhupāda. All right. Still, you should know what is this and what is . . . Yes, I know. (break) . . . he was going to cleanse these rooms. So whether this is going on or not, you do not know. Then who knows it? Viśvambhara will know, because he took full charge in my absence for all these things. *You want me to take care of it? Your rooms at Rādhā*-Dāmodara? You want me to take care that they're cleaned and kept? That was being done. Yes, I had it being done once a week. So nobody knows what is being done or . . . (break) So one was to control horses. So he became very much anxious, "What kind of whip I shall have to keep?" First he has to get a horse. "Then, first of all, rascal, where is your horse?" (laughs) He became very much anxious, "What kind of whip?" Okay. I'll get the horses. And anyone who can purchase a horse, he can very easily purchase any whip. Not that we shall be very much anxious for the whip first. First of all, let us have a horse. The difficulty is that no horse is coming. That is the difficulty. Attract horse, and you'll find so many. Okay. (end) Conversation -- September 29, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation with U.N. Doctor) Na taj janeṣu abhijñeṣu. Abhijñaḥ janeṣu , no attachment. Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Nārada Muni, all the ācāryas , Rāmānujācārya, they have no respect for these. They're creating their howling habits, that's all. How there can be peace? Now, when the Kṛṣṇa mantras . . . Why do you say Kṛṣṇa panthā ? No, mantra s. I have come to mantra . Klīṁ kṛṣṇāya govindāya gopījanavallabhāya namaḥ. Is that not a very powerful Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Yes. That is better than Hare Kṛṣṇa. *No. Hare Kṛṣṇa is therefore called mahā*-mantra . Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. This you regard as the . . . higher than any other . . . *Oh, yes. Therefore it is called mahā*-mantra . *But I was told that the Sudarśana*-cakra words, mahāmāla parakramāyā maha patanivaya bhakta jane kalpanaya , that is a very powerful mantra . *Yes. Everything in relationship with God is powerful. But the name in this age is the most powerful: kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet ( SB 12.3.51). And the word oṁ has been praised in the *Upaniṣads* , but . . . *Oṁ, veda, praṇavaḥ sarva*-vedeṣu . Kṛṣṇa says that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu (BG 7.8). Praṇava is oṁkāra. Sarva-vedeṣu , "That praṇava I am." That is sound representation of Kṛṣṇa. Then that one word as a mantra , is it not . . . Yes. . . . the highest sort of word? *No. If you keep Kṛṣṇa that, "This praṇava is the sound representation of Kṛṣṇa," then it is all right. If you think it is separately powerful than Kṛṣṇa, that is nāma*-aparādha . I understand. Yes. If you accept it as Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am praṇava ," if you do remember Kṛṣṇa by chanting oṁkāra , then it is all right. Otherwise, oṁ is only given to sannyāsīs ? Not necessarily. It is not mentioned there. Anyone chanting Vedic mantra , he has to begin with oṁkāra . All mantra s begin with oṁ and end with oṁ . *Yes, oṁkāra . So sarva*-vedeṣu. So all the essential *Vedas* . *Praṇavaḥ sarva*-vedeṣu . This is beginning. Just like we take Bhāgavatam, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. The difficulty is that we consider Kṛṣṇa is different from oṁkāra . That is a mistake. That is a mistake. But then Kṛṣṇa is not different from Brahman. If you take this oṁkāra as Kṛṣṇa's sound representation, then it is all right. Then it is as good as chanting "Kṛṣṇa." Yes. But it does not give . . . But because Kṛṣṇa is remembered, if you take oṁkāra as Kṛṣṇa's sound representation then Kṛṣṇa is remembered. But Kṛṣṇa is three letters. Oṁ is one. That doesn't matter. In the last minute when you are dying you can feel it, easily feel it. Kṛṣṇa has many names. Kṛṣṇa has name Govinda. It is not three letters, it is more than that. Kṛṣṇa has so many thousands names. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta (BS 5.33). So therefore Kṛṣṇa advises for the beginners, "Just try to remember Me in this way— raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8): I am the taste of the water." The water you must be drinking twice, thrice, four times. So when you drink water, the taste satisfies your thirst. So if you simply remember, "This taste is Kṛṣṇa," that is Kṛṣṇa conscious. When you eat food, that also, the taste is Kṛṣṇa. No, especially of the water. Kṛṣṇa is everything, but specifically He mentions, "The taste of the water I am." So you remember this. That's very interesting. So every time you drink water . . . You can remember Kṛṣṇa. Where is the wrong, and what is the loss there? But you follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction. (someone enters) Yes, sit down. There is no difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. (microphone moves) Why do you tape record? Everything Prabhupāda speaks we tape record, and then everyone in the world can listen. Someone said that the word oṁ is given to sannyāsīs , and it . . . No, Kṛṣṇa does not say. It's not so. "Someone," we don't take authority. "Someone." There are so many "someones." We don't care for them. What Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. That's all. *But this Kaṭha*-Upaniṣad praises oṁ . *Yes, Upaniṣad is giving lesson, counterpart of this material world. Because . . . just like you are stressing on oṁkāra because you do not give much importance to Kṛṣṇa. In the material world, Kṛṣṇa . . . they think Kṛṣṇa is one of the historical person. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). So Upaniṣad is teaching us in an indirect way about the importance of Kṛṣṇa. Upa*-niṣat : to bring you nearby. Because you have got so many material conception, if we say that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," you may not like it. Therefore . . . oṁkāra is Kṛṣṇa. So you are giving lesson on oṁkāra . Although Kṛṣṇa and oṁkāra is not different, but you'll not like Kṛṣṇa. In your present position you'll not like Kṛṣṇa's name. Why? No. Therefore you are stressing . . . No, I have read all this, and I am trying to reconcile. Ah. So that is for the neophytes. The reconciliation is there. Oṁ is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is oṁ . So if Kṛṣṇa is . . . if you are convinced, then where is the objection of Hare Kṛṣṇa? No, no. Why should you bring so many objections? Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Yes, that is a fact. *Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But because I do not like, therefore *Upaniṣads* give another chance that, "Chant oṁkāra ." That is the way. Because unless one is completely purified, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhajana is possible when one is completely free from all kinds of sinful activities. So not everyone is freed from sinful activities. Therefore the indirect way. Otherwise, Upaniṣad is Veda . Based on *Vedas* . Right. Based. Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). By studying *Vedas* , *Upaniṣads* , if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, that means your study is not complete. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After studying this indirect information of Kṛṣṇa, when one is actually a learned, wise man, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is very rarely found. This is fact. So if one is intelligent, that if only the most intelligent person, after many, many births one has to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, why not do it immediately? Why shall I wait for many, many births? That is intelligence. *Śrī*-kṛṣṇas tu śaraṇaṁ mama. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). That is intelligence. But that intelligence is not possible for ordinary persons. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. One who gets this intelligence, such kind of mahātmā is very, very rarely found. To take it immediately, ah, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti , that is very difficult. It is not so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa or to accept Kṛṣṇa as all in all. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam . But if you take it, you are fortunate. And the only way to attain is reciting the name. *Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Do that. Therefore the temple is there. Everyone may come and see Kṛṣṇa and think of Him. What is the difficulty? But he'll not come. He has concluded Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra . God is nirākāra . Then Kṛṣṇa will not come. Well, now, Kṛṣṇa . . . you . . . whatever you think, that is your business, but Kṛṣṇa is there everywhere. He is nirākāra and sākāra . Nirākāra means He has no material ākāra . That is nirākāra. Ākāra means we have got . . . just like I have conception of you. So this ākāra is your material ākāra . It is not your real ākāra. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). The real person is within the body, but we have no connection with the real body. We see this outward . . . just like seeing his dress, his . . . that's all. How to find the . . .? How to get to the ātman , the inner body? *Yes, that is the first instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that first of all, try to understand what is the person. So because we have no eyes to see, indirectly, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram . . . (BG 2.13). Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ (BG 2.18). So many things. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . So many indirect way because we cannot directly perceive. Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ (BG 2.23). What is called? Definition by negation. Nainaṁ chindanti —negation. So that you can have some idea. Of what it is. It is not material. Because matter, chindanti , any matter, it can be destroyed. It can be cut into pieces, it can be melted in fire, it can be moistened. So when we cannot understand things, it is given in the definition of negation. But then it's much better to worship God in form. *Yes, that is intelligence. If you accept Kṛṣṇa immediately, man*-manā bhava mad . . . then your life is successful. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśaya (BG 18.65), He said. But they are not interested. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is a historical person. Why shall I think of Him? I shall think of oṁkāra ." You cannot think of oṁkāra . You can hear. And as soon as you think of oṁkāra , it comes form. There is no impersonality. It again becomes personal. So they want to avoid personality and as well as think of Him—it becomes a very troublesome job. Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām (BG 12.5). They cannot think of avyakta , impersonal. But they are trying to think of. And that is a very troublesome job. Kleśala eva avaśiṣyate . Such attempt means he simply gets the result of his hard endeavor. That's all. He doesn't get any substance. So with faith accept the . . . No faith—it is fact. Faith is blind. Faith is blind. Yes. Faith with good knowledge, that is nice. If you have good knowledge of Kṛṣṇa and you have faith, that is very good. But if you . . . just like Māyāvādīs, they say: "Imagine Kṛṣṇa as God." They say: "Imagine." That is no good. *They are no good. Kalpana . They say kalpana. Sādhakānāṁ gitarthaya brahma*-rūpa-kalpana. Rūpa-kalpana . But Kṛṣṇa's rūpa is not kalpana; it is fact. So kalpana is not faith, it is blind. "Let me imagine some form of Kṛṣṇa." And therefore gradually, they come down to the position that any form you imagine as God, that is all right. They have come to this degradation. That you can, any form . . . Yes. Any form you imagine that he is God, that will give you success. They say like that. I think I have taken too much of time. I am going there at six. Words of enlightenment. Have you got any of Prabhupāda's books? *I have got some. I bought all the volumes of translation of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . I have got all of them. But some of them have not arrived from United States, the latest ones. And I have got . . . *Bhagavad*-gītā . That's very nice. You are staying in New Delhi? I stay in the Hague and come to New Delhi when there are no cases. Hague? Holland. Holland. That is the international court? Yes, the court case located, the headquarters. I went somewhere, that is also international. In Geneva, I think. Is there any . . .? Geneva is another headquarters of the . . . of the United Nations. New York, Geneva. But the court is in the Hague. So I went to that place in Geneva. Geneva has got so many specialized agencies of the United Nations, like the I.L.O. and so on. Do you think United Nation is making any tangible progress? Sir, it at least brings people together under one umbrella to discuss. If you did not have that . . . But discussion, that I have already explained. Sir, maybe, but if you don't discuss, you'll fight. Because if aim we don't meet at all, then they will have the struggle. *No. If you have no idea how to come to the conclusion, ciraṁ vicinvan (SB 10.14.29), you can forever go on discussing, you'll never come . . . you do not know what is the aim. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). May be so, but if two people instead of coming to blows come together to talk, it is a step in the right direction. No right direction, because he does not know what is the aim. They both want to have peace, so they at least try to . . . Everyone wants that. But if he does not know how to attain peace, then you'll go on discussing forever. That is going on. But it is still a step in the right direction . . . I don't think there is any advancement. . . . otherwise, what is the aim? Otherwise, there is; *but you don't take, how it can be done? In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated: This is the process. But if you don't take it . . . But if that realization does not dawn . . . 'till that realization . . . Then you go on barking. That is another thing. (laughs) It's better to bark than to fight. Then that is your satisfaction. You can do that peacefully. One day after barking they will come to a conclusion. *No, that is . . . let it be known, fact, that that will never come, if you do not know what is the aim. That is stated in the . . . durāśayā ye bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. This is, means, a bad hope, that by this external exhibition of manipulation of energy, they will come to peace. It is not possible. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ adānta-gobhir . . . (SB 7.5.31). Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This kind of leading is made by the blind leaders. If the leaders are blind and the followers are blind, what result will be there? That is true, sir, but that stage has not come. One day it will come. But till that stage and that realization of . . . *No, stage is there. But if the obstinate persons, they do not take it . . . here it is clearly said . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29): "I am the proprietor of all the lands, all the planets." So how can you say no? There must be someone proprietor. But then God Himself has created the ego in man. No, no. He has created . . . God is the creator. He's also the creator of the ego of man. He has created ego. That is a fact. But you are utilizing the ego in a different way. Because the realization is not there. He is giving the intelligence, but you are not accepting. Maybe so. *Yes. That is the difficulty. He has come to give you instruction, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). When you forget—there is glānir , discrepancies, in the discharge of your duties—He comes to give you instruction, but you don't accept. Now what can be done? The teacher is giving you instruction, but you don't accept. Then how you'll be educated? This is going on. Mūḍho nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25). They do not accept. They will write comments on Bhagavad*-gītā in their own way. You see? Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Yes. As it is. Don't comment in your own way. You'll not get any profit. Take, for example, any law, government law. Can I comment in my own way? No. *Then why you comment on Bhagavad*-gītā ? The law is meant for obedience. That's all. Similarly, if you accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord, then whatever He has said . . . just like Arjuna says, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14): "Whatever you are saying, Keśava, I accept them in total." That is acceptance. (laughs) Along this note, I'll . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 29, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation with U.N. Doctor) Na taj janeṣu abhijñeṣu. Abhijñaḥ janeṣu , no attachment. Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Nārada Muni, all the ācāryas , Rāmānujācārya, they have no respect for these. They're creating their howling habits, that's all. How there can be peace? Now, when the Kṛṣṇa mantras . . . Why do you say Kṛṣṇa panthā ? No, mantra s. I have come to mantra . Klīṁ kṛṣṇāya govindāya gopījanavallabhāya namaḥ. Is that not a very powerful Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Yes. That is better than Hare Kṛṣṇa. *No. Hare Kṛṣṇa is therefore called mahā*-mantra . Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. This you regard as the . . . higher than any other . . . *Oh, yes. Therefore it is called mahā*-mantra . *But I was told that the Sudarśana*-cakra words, mahāmāla parakramāyā maha patanivaya bhakta jane kalpanaya , that is a very powerful mantra . *Yes. Everything in relationship with God is powerful. But the name in this age is the most powerful: kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet ( SB 12.3.51). And the word oṁ has been praised in the *Upaniṣads* , but . . . *Oṁ, veda, praṇavaḥ sarva*-vedeṣu . Kṛṣṇa says that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu (BG 7.8). Praṇava is oṁkāra. Sarva-vedeṣu , "That praṇava I am." That is sound representation of Kṛṣṇa. Then that one word as a mantra , is it not . . . Yes. . . . the highest sort of word? *No. If you keep Kṛṣṇa that, "This praṇava is the sound representation of Kṛṣṇa," then it is all right. If you think it is separately powerful than Kṛṣṇa, that is nāma*-aparādha . I understand. Yes. If you accept it as Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am praṇava ," if you do remember Kṛṣṇa by chanting oṁkāra , then it is all right. Otherwise, oṁ is only given to sannyāsīs ? Not necessarily. It is not mentioned there. Anyone chanting Vedic mantra , he has to begin with oṁkāra . All mantra s begin with oṁ and end with oṁ . *Yes, oṁkāra . So sarva*-vedeṣu. So all the essential *Vedas* . *Praṇavaḥ sarva*-vedeṣu . This is beginning. Just like we take Bhāgavatam, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. The difficulty is that we consider Kṛṣṇa is different from oṁkāra . That is a mistake. That is a mistake. But then Kṛṣṇa is not different from Brahman. If you take this oṁkāra as Kṛṣṇa's sound representation, then it is all right. Then it is as good as chanting "Kṛṣṇa." Yes. But it does not give . . . But because Kṛṣṇa is remembered, if you take oṁkāra as Kṛṣṇa's sound representation then Kṛṣṇa is remembered. But Kṛṣṇa is three letters. Oṁ is one. That doesn't matter. In the last minute when you are dying you can feel it, easily feel it. Kṛṣṇa has many names. Kṛṣṇa has name Govinda. It is not three letters, it is more than that. Kṛṣṇa has so many thousands names. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta (BS 5.33). So therefore Kṛṣṇa advises for the beginners, "Just try to remember Me in this way— raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8): I am the taste of the water." The water you must be drinking twice, thrice, four times. So when you drink water, the taste satisfies your thirst. So if you simply remember, "This taste is Kṛṣṇa," that is Kṛṣṇa conscious. When you eat food, that also, the taste is Kṛṣṇa. No, especially of the water. Kṛṣṇa is everything, but specifically He mentions, "The taste of the water I am." So you remember this. That's very interesting. So every time you drink water . . . You can remember Kṛṣṇa. Where is the wrong, and what is the loss there? But you follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction. (someone enters) Yes, sit down. There is no difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. (microphone moves) Why do you tape record? Everything Prabhupāda speaks we tape record, and then everyone in the world can listen. Someone said that the word oṁ is given to sannyāsīs , and it . . . No, Kṛṣṇa does not say. It's not so. "Someone," we don't take authority. "Someone." There are so many "someones." We don't care for them. What Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. That's all. *But this Kaṭha*-Upaniṣad praises oṁ . *Yes, Upaniṣad is giving lesson, counterpart of this material world. Because . . . just like you are stressing on oṁkāra because you do not give much importance to Kṛṣṇa. In the material world, Kṛṣṇa . . . they think Kṛṣṇa is one of the historical person. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). So Upaniṣad is teaching us in an indirect way about the importance of Kṛṣṇa. Upa*-niṣat : to bring you nearby. Because you have got so many material conception, if we say that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," you may not like it. Therefore . . . oṁkāra is Kṛṣṇa. So you are giving lesson on oṁkāra . Although Kṛṣṇa and oṁkāra is not different, but you'll not like Kṛṣṇa. In your present position you'll not like Kṛṣṇa's name. Why? No. Therefore you are stressing . . . No, I have read all this, and I am trying to reconcile. Ah. So that is for the neophytes. The reconciliation is there. Oṁ is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is oṁ . So if Kṛṣṇa is . . . if you are convinced, then where is the objection of Hare Kṛṣṇa? No, no. Why should you bring so many objections? Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Yes, that is a fact. *Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But because I do not like, therefore *Upaniṣads* give another chance that, "Chant oṁkāra ." That is the way. Because unless one is completely purified, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhajana is possible when one is completely free from all kinds of sinful activities. So not everyone is freed from sinful activities. Therefore the indirect way. Otherwise, Upaniṣad is Veda . Based on *Vedas* . Right. Based. Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). By studying *Vedas* , *Upaniṣads* , if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, that means your study is not complete. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After studying this indirect information of Kṛṣṇa, when one is actually a learned, wise man, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is very rarely found. This is fact. So if one is intelligent, that if only the most intelligent person, after many, many births one has to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, why not do it immediately? Why shall I wait for many, many births? That is intelligence. *Śrī*-kṛṣṇas tu śaraṇaṁ mama. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). That is intelligence. But that intelligence is not possible for ordinary persons. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. One who gets this intelligence, such kind of mahātmā is very, very rarely found. To take it immediately, ah, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti , that is very difficult. It is not so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa or to accept Kṛṣṇa as all in all. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam . But if you take it, you are fortunate. And the only way to attain is reciting the name. *Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Do that. Therefore the temple is there. Everyone may come and see Kṛṣṇa and think of Him. What is the difficulty? But he'll not come. He has concluded Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra . God is nirākāra . Then Kṛṣṇa will not come. Well, now, Kṛṣṇa . . . you . . . whatever you think, that is your business, but Kṛṣṇa is there everywhere. He is nirākāra and sākāra . Nirākāra means He has no material ākāra . That is nirākāra. Ākāra means we have got . . . just like I have conception of you. So this ākāra is your material ākāra . It is not your real ākāra. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). The real person is within the body, but we have no connection with the real body. We see this outward . . . just like seeing his dress, his . . . that's all. How to find the . . .? How to get to the ātman , the inner body? *Yes, that is the first instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that first of all, try to understand what is the person. So because we have no eyes to see, indirectly, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram . . . (BG 2.13). Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ (BG 2.18). So many things. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . So many indirect way because we cannot directly perceive. Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ (BG 2.23). What is called? Definition by negation. Nainaṁ chindanti —negation. So that you can have some idea. Of what it is. It is not material. Because matter, chindanti , any matter, it can be destroyed. It can be cut into pieces, it can be melted in fire, it can be moistened. So when we cannot understand things, it is given in the definition of negation. But then it's much better to worship God in form. *Yes, that is intelligence. If you accept Kṛṣṇa immediately, man*-manā bhava mad . . . then your life is successful. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśaya (BG 18.65), He said. But they are not interested. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is a historical person. Why shall I think of Him? I shall think of oṁkāra ." You cannot think of oṁkāra . You can hear. And as soon as you think of oṁkāra , it comes form. There is no impersonality. It again becomes personal. So they want to avoid personality and as well as think of Him—it becomes a very troublesome job. Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām (BG 12.5). They cannot think of avyakta , impersonal. But they are trying to think of. And that is a very troublesome job. Kleśala eva avaśiṣyate . Such attempt means he simply gets the result of his hard endeavor. That's all. He doesn't get any substance. So with faith accept the . . . No faith—it is fact. Faith is blind. Faith is blind. Yes. Faith with good knowledge, that is nice. If you have good knowledge of Kṛṣṇa and you have faith, that is very good. But if you . . . just like Māyāvādīs, they say: "Imagine Kṛṣṇa as God." They say: "Imagine." That is no good. *They are no good. Kalpana . They say kalpana. Sādhakānāṁ gitarthaya brahma*-rūpa-kalpana. Rūpa-kalpana . But Kṛṣṇa's rūpa is not kalpana; it is fact. So kalpana is not faith, it is blind. "Let me imagine some form of Kṛṣṇa." And therefore gradually, they come down to the position that any form you imagine as God, that is all right. They have come to this degradation. That you can, any form . . . Yes. Any form you imagine that he is God, that will give you success. They say like that. I think I have taken too much of time. I am going there at six. Words of enlightenment. Have you got any of Prabhupāda's books? *I have got some. I bought all the volumes of translation of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . I have got all of them. But some of them have not arrived from United States, the latest ones. And I have got . . . *Bhagavad*-gītā . That's very nice. You are staying in New Delhi? I stay in the Hague and come to New Delhi when there are no cases. Hague? Holland. Holland. That is the international court? Yes, the court case located, the headquarters. I went somewhere, that is also international. In Geneva, I think. Is there any . . .? Geneva is another headquarters of the . . . of the United Nations. New York, Geneva. But the court is in the Hague. So I went to that place in Geneva. Geneva has got so many specialized agencies of the United Nations, like the I.L.O. and so on. Do you think United Nation is making any tangible progress? Sir, it at least brings people together under one umbrella to discuss. If you did not have that . . . But discussion, that I have already explained. Sir, maybe, but if you don't discuss, you'll fight. Because if aim we don't meet at all, then they will have the struggle. *No. If you have no idea how to come to the conclusion, ciraṁ vicinvan (SB 10.14.29), you can forever go on discussing, you'll never come . . . you do not know what is the aim. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). May be so, but if two people instead of coming to blows come together to talk, it is a step in the right direction. No right direction, because he does not know what is the aim. They both want to have peace, so they at least try to . . . Everyone wants that. But if he does not know how to attain peace, then you'll go on discussing forever. That is going on. But it is still a step in the right direction . . . I don't think there is any advancement. . . . otherwise, what is the aim? Otherwise, there is; *but you don't take, how it can be done? In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated: This is the process. But if you don't take it . . . But if that realization does not dawn . . . 'till that realization . . . Then you go on barking. That is another thing. (laughs) It's better to bark than to fight. Then that is your satisfaction. You can do that peacefully. One day after barking they will come to a conclusion. *No, that is . . . let it be known, fact, that that will never come, if you do not know what is the aim. That is stated in the . . . durāśayā ye bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. This is, means, a bad hope, that by this external exhibition of manipulation of energy, they will come to peace. It is not possible. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ adānta-gobhir . . . (SB 7.5.31). Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This kind of leading is made by the blind leaders. If the leaders are blind and the followers are blind, what result will be there? That is true, sir, but that stage has not come. One day it will come. But till that stage and that realization of . . . *No, stage is there. But if the obstinate persons, they do not take it . . . here it is clearly said . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29): "I am the proprietor of all the lands, all the planets." So how can you say no? There must be someone proprietor. But then God Himself has created the ego in man. No, no. He has created . . . God is the creator. He's also the creator of the ego of man. He has created ego. That is a fact. But you are utilizing the ego in a different way. Because the realization is not there. He is giving the intelligence, but you are not accepting. Maybe so. *Yes. That is the difficulty. He has come to give you instruction, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). When you forget—there is glānir , discrepancies, in the discharge of your duties—He comes to give you instruction, but you don't accept. Now what can be done? The teacher is giving you instruction, but you don't accept. Then how you'll be educated? This is going on. Mūḍho nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25). They do not accept. They will write comments on Bhagavad*-gītā in their own way. You see? Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Yes. As it is. Don't comment in your own way. You'll not get any profit. Take, for example, any law, government law. Can I comment in my own way? No. *Then why you comment on Bhagavad*-gītā ? The law is meant for obedience. That's all. Similarly, if you accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord, then whatever He has said . . . just like Arjuna says, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14): "Whatever you are saying, Keśava, I accept them in total." That is acceptance. (laughs) Along this note, I'll . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 30, 1976, Vrndavana *One boy, he was coming to me. In that 100 . . . (break) about 171st Street, all my things were stolen. My tape recorder, typewriter. Fortunately they did not touch my manuscript that I was writing, typing my books. So some money was stolen. Then one boy, he was coming to me, he told me, "Please come to my place." A loft, Bowery Street. I did not know the Bowery Street was not a good quarter. All bums and drunks. When I see them, one Jewish friend, he had electrical shop, he told me, "Swāmījī, you have gone to Bowery Street? Oh, it is not your place." I did not know that it is full of drunkards. But they were lying down in front of my door, but they were respectful. When I'd go, these drunkard comes, and they respectfully give me ways. And they would lie down on urine and something like that, on water. Then the boy who took me there . . . he was Murray. His last title was Murray. And he was taking LSD. So since I went there, he did not go to work. Otherwise, he was working and getting daily twenty*-five dollars. In some dock he was working. Since I went, he stopped working, and I had to pay 125 dollars for the loft. One lady was the landlord. *So I was going on. Some people were coming. Then Mukunda began to come, his wife, and another black boy, half*-black. Yeargen, Karlāpati. I gave him name, Karlāpati. He was coming. Then one day that boy Murray, he showed some crazy features. So I thought, "It is dangerous to live with him." So I approached Mukunda. Mukunda had no place, still I asked him. So I kept my goods at Mukunda's house and went to live with Yeargen. That is another loft. So in this way, with great hardship—sometime here, sometime there—in this way, I got two hundred dollars by selling book, and then I asked Mukunda to find out an apartment. He found this apartment, 26 Second Avenue: one storefront down and one living quarters up. So I found it very convenient. Down I would lecture and hold kīrtana . So he charged 75 dollars per month for the apartment, small apartment. I think in a space like this room or less than that, everything is there. There was kitchen, there was shower, and two rooms. I think less than this. About two-thirds of this room, and everything there. So I shifted there. And there I remained up to May 1967, I think. *Then I got heart attack. Then I went to Stenson Beach. Then I could not improve my health. No, first of all I went to San Francisco. There also I could not . . . I could not sleep home at night. There was throbbing in the heart. Kīrtanānanda, he was serving me. So many difficulties. Then I came back to India in 1967, July. Here also not very much improvement. Then again I went to Los Angeles. There also one symptom developed, always some sound in the ear, goh*-goh-goh-goh-goh. It was so disturbing, almost half-mad. And then Los Angeles. Then I think I went to Seattle. In this way, in the beginning there were so many difficulties. Montreal. I took Canadian citizenship. America I could not get. So one gentleman in the immigration department, he said: "Swāmījī, you go to Canada, and from there you try. It will be easier." Actually, it acted. The Canadian Consulate General was a black man, American black man. So in the consulate I applied for citizenship . . . aiye , immigration, and he was sympathetic. He saw my Teachings of Lord Caitanya and he became attracted. So he settled up, "This gentleman must be allowed." So he expedited the matter within three months. And then I became immigrant in the USA. Then again I came back in Los Angeles, and then we took that house, La Cienega. La Cienega Boulevard. That man also wanted to kick out after one year. Then we had no place. Then, by Kṛṣṇa's grace, we got this house present. At that time I got fifty thousand dollars. So I advanced them down payment. And it is 225 hundred . . . thousand. I think they are still paying two thousand. Twelve years. How many years passed? That was in '69? Yes. '68 I got immigration, and '69. Hmm. It is a long history, checkered history. (pause) So preaching is independent. If you have got desire, you can preach in any circumstances and Kṛṣṇa will help you. I have practically experienced. I went to your country without any help, without any money, alone. And gradually things developed. (break) . . . all foreigners. I did not approach any Indian. I did not approach anyone, but Kṛṣṇa sent friends, gradually developed. There's a man from Gujarat that wants to see you, Prabhupāda. He saw our center in Chicago. Hmm? He saw our center in Chicago. Oh. Get this light. Light. (end) Conversation -- September 30, 1976, Vrndavana *One boy, he was coming to me. In that 100 . . . (break) about 171st Street, all my things were stolen. My tape recorder, typewriter. Fortunately they did not touch my manuscript that I was writing, typing my books. So some money was stolen. Then one boy, he was coming to me, he told me, "Please come to my place." A loft, Bowery Street. I did not know the Bowery Street was not a good quarter. All bums and drunks. When I see them, one Jewish friend, he had electrical shop, he told me, "Swāmījī, you have gone to Bowery Street? Oh, it is not your place." I did not know that it is full of drunkards. But they were lying down in front of my door, but they were respectful. When I'd go, these drunkard comes, and they respectfully give me ways. And they would lie down on urine and something like that, on water. Then the boy who took me there . . . he was Murray. His last title was Murray. And he was taking LSD. So since I went there, he did not go to work. Otherwise, he was working and getting daily twenty*-five dollars. In some dock he was working. Since I went, he stopped working, and I had to pay 125 dollars for the loft. One lady was the landlord. *So I was going on. Some people were coming. Then Mukunda began to come, his wife, and another black boy, half*-black. Yeargen, Karlāpati. I gave him name, Karlāpati. He was coming. Then one day that boy Murray, he showed some crazy features. So I thought, "It is dangerous to live with him." So I approached Mukunda. Mukunda had no place, still I asked him. So I kept my goods at Mukunda's house and went to live with Yeargen. That is another loft. So in this way, with great hardship—sometime here, sometime there—in this way, I got two hundred dollars by selling book, and then I asked Mukunda to find out an apartment. He found this apartment, 26 Second Avenue: one storefront down and one living quarters up. So I found it very convenient. Down I would lecture and hold kīrtana . So he charged 75 dollars per month for the apartment, small apartment. I think in a space like this room or less than that, everything is there. There was kitchen, there was shower, and two rooms. I think less than this. About two-thirds of this room, and everything there. So I shifted there. And there I remained up to May 1967, I think. *Then I got heart attack. Then I went to Stenson Beach. Then I could not improve my health. No, first of all I went to San Francisco. There also I could not . . . I could not sleep home at night. There was throbbing in the heart. Kīrtanānanda, he was serving me. So many difficulties. Then I came back to India in 1967, July. Here also not very much improvement. Then again I went to Los Angeles. There also one symptom developed, always some sound in the ear, goh*-goh-goh-goh-goh. It was so disturbing, almost half-mad. And then Los Angeles. Then I think I went to Seattle. In this way, in the beginning there were so many difficulties. Montreal. I took Canadian citizenship. America I could not get. So one gentleman in the immigration department, he said: "Swāmījī, you go to Canada, and from there you try. It will be easier." Actually, it acted. The Canadian Consulate General was a black man, American black man. So in the consulate I applied for citizenship . . . aiye , immigration, and he was sympathetic. He saw my Teachings of Lord Caitanya and he became attracted. So he settled up, "This gentleman must be allowed." So he expedited the matter within three months. And then I became immigrant in the USA. Then again I came back in Los Angeles, and then we took that house, La Cienega. La Cienega Boulevard. That man also wanted to kick out after one year. Then we had no place. Then, by Kṛṣṇa's grace, we got this house present. At that time I got fifty thousand dollars. So I advanced them down payment. And it is 225 hundred . . . thousand. I think they are still paying two thousand. Twelve years. How many years passed? That was in '69? Yes. '68 I got immigration, and '69. Hmm. It is a long history, checkered history. (pause) So preaching is independent. If you have got desire, you can preach in any circumstances and Kṛṣṇa will help you. I have practically experienced. I went to your country without any help, without any money, alone. And gradually things developed. (break) . . . all foreigners. I did not approach any Indian. I did not approach anyone, but Kṛṣṇa sent friends, gradually developed. There's a man from Gujarat that wants to see you, Prabhupāda. He saw our center in Chicago. Hmm? He saw our center in Chicago. Oh. Get this light. Light. (end) Conversation -- October 3, 1976, Vrndavana . . . position. It is not a good position. (looking at photo) No, it's not very clean. I was just wondering who the other two were. I took sannyāsa from him. Who is that? Sannyāsa has to be taken from a sannyāsī , so I took sannyāsa from him. Yes, I was wondering what his name was. Oh, his name is Keśava Mahārāja. He's one of my Godbrothers. He's also one of my Godbrothers. And he took it the same time. They are now dead and gone. Yes. This man, he looks very old already. The other one. Oh, yes. He was . . . he is of my age, middle. The other one, he was older. Harikeśa said the day before you took sannyāsa you were gored by a cow or something? A cow hit you in the stomach? Before? The day before you took sannyāsa ? No. No. (laughing) I was told that. I don't know whether it was . . . or some time around then. That was long before. Oh, that was a long time. I took sannyāsa sometime in '59, and . . . no, that is after I took sannyāsa . No, no. Before, yes. Before or after . . . He said it was the day before. (laughs) No. That was an incident in Delhi. Now I think it was . . . it was before. Before. That was sometime in 19 . . . 56. Oh, that's a long time before. And I took sannyāsa in 1959. That was in Vṛndāvana or Delhi? No, Delhi. Vānaprastha . I was alone. But my paper was going on, Back to Godhead . In Delhi I was alone. I was doing everything—editing, selling, collecting, cooking. There was no Godbrothers helping at all? I did not take. They wanted. I did not take. Did you ever think at that time that you would be able to expand or . . . *I was trying to do. It was a struggle at that time. At that time I lived with some of my Godbrothers, but I did not like, and I left their temple and I was living alone. Then in Imlitala . . . you know there? Imlitala, Seva*-kunj there is a . . . No, I'm not familiar. My Godbrother's temple. He had a temple in Delhi, Karol Bagh. I left Jhansi and came to Mathurā. I lived there for few months. Then I went to Delhi. In this way, here, there. The boy at the front, he's reading one of your old Bhāgavatams . Hmm? He has one of your original Bhāgavatams . Who? The boy at the front that's on guard. Hmm? Akṣaya, the boy that guards. He's been reading one of your original Bhāgavatams , the 1.1. Oh. *And I was looking at the front, and it gives your residence in Vṛndāvana at Rādhā*-Dāmodara and your office in Delhi. It was not unpleasant. When I was living alone, doing everything, it was not unpleasant. I was . . . very nice. That was an accident. Otherwise, it was not unpleasant. Alone, everything I was doing. Rather, I had not so much anxiety about management. Even my, this son came to live with me. I said: "No, you don't." Who was that? Vrindavan there? Hmm. They sent, my family, to go and live with me. He came twice, thrice. The reason is that I asked him, "If you want to live with me, then you have to live with me as sannyāsī, brahmacārī ." Yeah . . . and he couldn't. Otherwise . . . from 1954, '55. No, up to '54 . . . 1950 . . . I left home 1950. From '50 to '54 I lived in Jhansi. That was when you started the League of Devotees? Hmm. At that time there were many students. They were not my disciples, but they were coming. Like . . . that Prabhākāra? Yes, Prabhākāra Ācārya. He was the head. (laughs) You were teaching Vaiṣṇavism or . . . Yes. I wanted to start from there. It was very nice, big house. But this K. Munshi's wife tactfully wanted me to . . . the Governor's wife. That was a very big house. Oh, there were some politics. I didn't know. But he peacefully took it. I could have fought, but I did not like. All the pleaders in Jhansi, they said: "Don't leave." She was pressing through the collector, through the manager. That house belonged to some zamindar , but it was under the management of another man, Reba Shankara. So he was proprietor of one cinema hall. So the governor's wife was pressing him through the collector, because the license has to be renewed from the collector. Collector was insisting that, "You give that house, Lilavati Munshi." Indirectly. "Otherwise, your license will not be issued." They didn't leave you very much choice. I thought, I could not do something tangible. That's a fact. Somehow or other, I thought, "Let me go to Vṛndāvana. What is the use of fighting?" Otherwise, all the big lawyers in Jhansi, they were my friends. They said that, "You shall not go. We shall arrange." I thought that, "I have left my home, for this reason I am going to, again, litigation. I don't want this house. Let her do something." The League of Devotees, was that Godbrothers again? Or . . .? Was that some Godbrothers that you joined up with, or was that just . . . No, after leaving Jhansi I went to this Godbrother. Keśava. *I lived there for few months. Then I went to another Godbrother, that Imlitala, Delhi. Then I left there. I used to live alone in Delhi. Then I took one house in Keśī*-ghāṭa. Then the Rādhā-Dāmodara men, they called me that, "You can live here. We give you two rooms. We don't charge. We give you the place." I came to Rādhā-Dāmodara. And from Rādhā-Dāmodara temple I went USA. I was just wondering what exactly the League of Devotees was. Oh, League was that, that was . . . I was trying to collect some devotees. Some of them, they were medical . . . yes. Medical students. So they came and used to live with me. But still, I lived there for two years, from 1954 to '56. I had some surgical operation in my testicles there. They were taking care. This Prabhākāra and . . . they were not full time; they were students, that's all. They were living with me. But your Bhāgavatams , it says they were published by the League of Devotees. Does that just mean yourself, or there were others? (laughs) That was . . . League of Devotees was my organization. Therefore I gave that name. But actually it was just you. Oh. That League of Devotees, I was alone doing. (laughs) (laughing) I was trying to understand who it could be. I am everything at that time. There were some students, but they were not very active. I was doing everything. That League of Devotees means I am everything. I wanted to organize with this Prabhākāra Miśra and others, but they were not interested to be . . . Not to become Vaiṣṇavas. *No, to devote whole time. They were . . . just like Prabhākāra comes still. But if you ask him to do full*-time work, that he'll not do. Therefore I did not initiate others. He was initiated, harinam . But they were all learned scholars, Sanskrit. Do any of them come now? Hmm? Do any of them come now apart from Prabhākāra? Hmm? No, they are, they have gone in the . . . they are practicing as medical men. They were students, medical students. Now they are practicing. They don't come to see you or anything now? Sometime they came. Long time it is passed. That was in 1956 or '55. No, '54. In Jhansi. So, twenty years past. More than twenty years. You can speak of twenty years' history. What is that? Um. (end) Conversation -- October 3, 1976, Vrndavana . . . position. It is not a good position. (looking at photo) No, it's not very clean. I was just wondering who the other two were. I took sannyāsa from him. Who is that? Sannyāsa has to be taken from a sannyāsī , so I took sannyāsa from him. Yes, I was wondering what his name was. Oh, his name is Keśava Mahārāja. He's one of my Godbrothers. He's also one of my Godbrothers. And he took it the same time. They are now dead and gone. Yes. This man, he looks very old already. The other one. Oh, yes. He was . . . he is of my age, middle. The other one, he was older. Harikeśa said the day before you took sannyāsa you were gored by a cow or something? A cow hit you in the stomach? Before? The day before you took sannyāsa ? No. No. (laughing) I was told that. I don't know whether it was . . . or some time around then. That was long before. Oh, that was a long time. I took sannyāsa sometime in '59, and . . . no, that is after I took sannyāsa . No, no. Before, yes. Before or after . . . He said it was the day before. (laughs) No. That was an incident in Delhi. Now I think it was . . . it was before. Before. That was sometime in 19 . . . 56. Oh, that's a long time before. And I took sannyāsa in 1959. That was in Vṛndāvana or Delhi? No, Delhi. Vānaprastha . I was alone. But my paper was going on, Back to Godhead . In Delhi I was alone. I was doing everything—editing, selling, collecting, cooking. There was no Godbrothers helping at all? I did not take. They wanted. I did not take. Did you ever think at that time that you would be able to expand or . . . *I was trying to do. It was a struggle at that time. At that time I lived with some of my Godbrothers, but I did not like, and I left their temple and I was living alone. Then in Imlitala . . . you know there? Imlitala, Seva*-kunj there is a . . . No, I'm not familiar. My Godbrother's temple. He had a temple in Delhi, Karol Bagh. I left Jhansi and came to Mathurā. I lived there for few months. Then I went to Delhi. In this way, here, there. The boy at the front, he's reading one of your old Bhāgavatams . Hmm? He has one of your original Bhāgavatams . Who? The boy at the front that's on guard. Hmm? Akṣaya, the boy that guards. He's been reading one of your original Bhāgavatams , the 1.1. Oh. *And I was looking at the front, and it gives your residence in Vṛndāvana at Rādhā*-Dāmodara and your office in Delhi. It was not unpleasant. When I was living alone, doing everything, it was not unpleasant. I was . . . very nice. That was an accident. Otherwise, it was not unpleasant. Alone, everything I was doing. Rather, I had not so much anxiety about management. Even my, this son came to live with me. I said: "No, you don't." Who was that? Vrindavan there? Hmm. They sent, my family, to go and live with me. He came twice, thrice. The reason is that I asked him, "If you want to live with me, then you have to live with me as sannyāsī, brahmacārī ." Yeah . . . and he couldn't. Otherwise . . . from 1954, '55. No, up to '54 . . . 1950 . . . I left home 1950. From '50 to '54 I lived in Jhansi. That was when you started the League of Devotees? Hmm. At that time there were many students. They were not my disciples, but they were coming. Like . . . that Prabhākāra? Yes, Prabhākāra Ācārya. He was the head. (laughs) You were teaching Vaiṣṇavism or . . . Yes. I wanted to start from there. It was very nice, big house. But this K. Munshi's wife tactfully wanted me to . . . the Governor's wife. That was a very big house. Oh, there were some politics. I didn't know. But he peacefully took it. I could have fought, but I did not like. All the pleaders in Jhansi, they said: "Don't leave." She was pressing through the collector, through the manager. That house belonged to some zamindar , but it was under the management of another man, Reba Shankara. So he was proprietor of one cinema hall. So the governor's wife was pressing him through the collector, because the license has to be renewed from the collector. Collector was insisting that, "You give that house, Lilavati Munshi." Indirectly. "Otherwise, your license will not be issued." They didn't leave you very much choice. I thought, I could not do something tangible. That's a fact. Somehow or other, I thought, "Let me go to Vṛndāvana. What is the use of fighting?" Otherwise, all the big lawyers in Jhansi, they were my friends. They said that, "You shall not go. We shall arrange." I thought that, "I have left my home, for this reason I am going to, again, litigation. I don't want this house. Let her do something." The League of Devotees, was that Godbrothers again? Or . . .? Was that some Godbrothers that you joined up with, or was that just . . . No, after leaving Jhansi I went to this Godbrother. Keśava. *I lived there for few months. Then I went to another Godbrother, that Imlitala, Delhi. Then I left there. I used to live alone in Delhi. Then I took one house in Keśī*-ghāṭa. Then the Rādhā-Dāmodara men, they called me that, "You can live here. We give you two rooms. We don't charge. We give you the place." I came to Rādhā-Dāmodara. And from Rādhā-Dāmodara temple I went USA. I was just wondering what exactly the League of Devotees was. Oh, League was that, that was . . . I was trying to collect some devotees. Some of them, they were medical . . . yes. Medical students. So they came and used to live with me. But still, I lived there for two years, from 1954 to '56. I had some surgical operation in my testicles there. They were taking care. This Prabhākāra and . . . they were not full time; they were students, that's all. They were living with me. But your Bhāgavatams , it says they were published by the League of Devotees. Does that just mean yourself, or there were others? (laughs) That was . . . League of Devotees was my organization. Therefore I gave that name. But actually it was just you. Oh. That League of Devotees, I was alone doing. (laughs) (laughing) I was trying to understand who it could be. I am everything at that time. There were some students, but they were not very active. I was doing everything. That League of Devotees means I am everything. I wanted to organize with this Prabhākāra Miśra and others, but they were not interested to be . . . Not to become Vaiṣṇavas. *No, to devote whole time. They were . . . just like Prabhākāra comes still. But if you ask him to do full*-time work, that he'll not do. Therefore I did not initiate others. He was initiated, harinam . But they were all learned scholars, Sanskrit. Do any of them come now? Hmm? Do any of them come now apart from Prabhākāra? Hmm? No, they are, they have gone in the . . . they are practicing as medical men. They were students, medical students. Now they are practicing. They don't come to see you or anything now? Sometime they came. Long time it is passed. That was in 1956 or '55. No, '54. In Jhansi. So, twenty years past. More than twenty years. You can speak of twenty years' history. What is that? Um. (end) Conversation -- October 4, 1976, Vrndavana People have got already very respect now for the . . . (break) You should maintain the temple. They already call it angrej (English) temple. But still people come. But if you make a mleccha temple . . . actually, (laughs) they can say like that, but still they come. But their awe and veneration may be disturbed . . . may not be disturbed. That is management. One of the things they haven't been able to criticize us for is our Deity worship. Hmm? One of the things they can't criticize is our Deity worship, because it's a lot better than anywhere else. But we are not above criticism. Oh, no, they criticize us for plenty of other things. So many discrepancies. Even that does not mean . . . That's one point . . . that was one point in our favor, so we should maintain it. The servant should be kept only when that is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, everything should be done by us. I understand that, Prabhupāda. They are paying two thousand rupees. 'Till now, as far as possible, I've let a number of people go already. But until I can get the devotees to do these engagements, I can't let the servant go. No, that's all right, but devotees, why they shall not do? Well, that is the . . . If they are unwilling to do, then they must remain in the guesthouse as a respectable guest. I'm finding that's happening. I have so many devotees who stay in the guesthouse, because they're not willing to be engaged. They are paying? They are paying, yes. So it will have to be dealt with very, very tactfully, because for a long time there's been so many devotees here who just have not been engaged. And now someone is coming and he's trying to capture them . . . Reluctant to work. . . . trying to take account of their time, and they become upset. They think, "Oh, now this man is going to take my time." Yes, yes. Just for example . . . (break) ". . . chanting from nine to twelve, could you please chant then?" She became furious. She said: "I am already making garlands for four hours. I have no time." No, no, if she is making garlands, that is another thing. *I know, but it's only four hours, and I said there are twenty*-four hours, so that leaves twenty hours left over. It will take a little time to account their time and convince them that they have to accept more and more engagement. It's like pulling a tooth. No, if somebody is engaged in some business, so he may not chant. That concession may be given. But chanting . . . But, actually . . . It is not very compulsory. Take it. *But if we want to have a twenty*-four-hour kīrtana , I was speaking . . . If that is not available, not possible, don't be very serious. But these things must be done. Yes. It's just that I want to comply with all your desires. *That may be taken as voluntarily. But nobody can sit idly. That is the point. If one is engaged in making for flower garland, all right, you may not take him. It is not compulsory for you. The twenty*-four-hours kīrtana may . . . suppose if we haven't got sufficient men, it is not possible. It is required if there is sufficient men and they are not . . . we must see that they are not wasting uselessly time. That is the . . . if they are engaged in some business, there is no compulsory that he has to go and chant. But these things are . . . *Śrī*-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau. That is compulsory. It must be done by you or me or . . . it must be done early in the morning. Whole temple should be . . . there is sufficient water supply in the pipe. Simply it takes half an hour. It is neglected. I see the temple is not washed. There's so much dust. We used to wash it three times a day. How it is stopped? With great difficulty, of course. Hmm? With great difficulty. But still, it can be done. So these devotees, they come here not to work. It is a fashion. They come to be bābājīs . Ācchā ? Like that. Consciousness is like that. Yesterday two girls came. One came from Paris and one came from Australia. When I asked them, "Did anyone send you for a particular engagement?" They said: "No, I just left." "How did you get your money?" "From my family." Then, "Why did you come?" "We just wanted to see Vṛndāvana," and like that. And in this way, every day someone is coming, and as soon as I want to . . . they will say: "Well, I didn't come for this. I came . . ." But that's all right, if they then remain in the paying guest. Yes. I don't want to discourage them, but at the same time I can't have people just sitting around. No, those who are coming for excursion, they can remain in the paying guest room. Pay for food, pay for . . . otherwise, one has to be engaged. Devotee must voluntarily engage. Why one has to be requested? They should be very glad. They're not very conscious about doing service. But this is the service. He used to be the temple commander, Hari-śauri. He had a very difficult time, before, about a year ago, I think. He used to be the temple commander, and nobody would . . . I had to practically throw them out the room sometimes to do some work. This center particularly has just always been like that. (break) All the anxiety is how to get some fruit to maintain their body nicely. Very few devotees can actually accept engagement and maintain good health and a good consciousness, because the change for Western people for India is so extraordinary that it disturbs their mind, and consequently their body is disturbed, and then all they think about is how to maintain their body. They're used to eating large quantities of food. Here it cannot be done. And if I ask them . . . they're used to eating huge amounts of very rich foods. Where? In the West. In the Western temples. They get so many nice foodstuffs which are not available here, and when they become sick, then they . . . What rich food? Oh, like sour cream and butter and so many things, and all kinds of fruits and vegetables. In the West, the devotees must eat about four times as much as the ones in India who are not sick. The ones in India . . . I see that here they eat more. They appear to eat a lot. But I don't know. The food here is not . . . Not so rich. It's not got so much nutritional value. It's simpler. But I've seen boys here, they have been here a year or two years and they've had dysentery constantly, because they cannot control their tongues. They eat, and then they get sick, they get dysentery, so they say: "Oh, I need boiled this and fruit and this and that." But then again you see them on the first feast, or something like that, they're eating kachorī or this or that, stuff cooked in ghee. And then immediately they become sick again, and they can't do any work all the time, and at the same time they refuse to control their tongues to get better. They stay on that platform. Always sick, but not eating the correct food. This is one of our biggest problems. Just as you say, when someone gets sick he should fast. I tell them, "Stop eating. You'll get well immediately. If you have fever, don't eat. Take water, lemon. You'll be all right in a few days." They have not realized the function of the body, how their own body is functioning, and they insist on eating. They get sicker and sicker. They complicate things. I've seen so many people get incredibly complicated digestive diseases. And then they can't work. They get jaundice, they get dysentery, amoebic dysentery, boils—all these things come from taking too much food. And then they want to change their diet. Although they change their diet, they eat so much of the changed diet that it also has no effect. Yes, true. Actually, this is the main problem. And then they require money for medicine. I have spent so much money on medicine. Now I have stopped it. I tell them, "First you fast for three days, and if you don't get better I'll give you some money for medicine." But they are constantly running to this hospital, getting this pill and that pill. All these pills are useless. The real problem is they are just overeating. And of course, when they overeat they want to sleep. Because India is hot. And when they sleep, then they get dysentery. And when they get dysentery they can't engage. And in this way they run into a cycle which is very difficult to break. Only very few devotees are able to maintain themselves in India for any length of time. I see a nice strong man comes, and I look at him and I see him eat and I say: "Within a week this man is going to be sick." And sure enough, he's sick. He's laying down, he's got fever, he's got dysentery, he's going to the hospital. In this way we have so many people like that. They become so weak that they can't work anyway. So they just become a liability. I had one devotee, his name was Rad . . . (break) . . . you know and you know. He does nothing at all. He's always sick. But at prasādam he eats more than any other man. I told him, "Prabhu, you're a doctor. You should know that if you eat so much food you can't digest, you're going to be sick." He says: "No, I'm so weak I require food. I have to. I can't get any strength." So I asked him, "At least sit down in the temple and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." He said: "I can't . . ." I have seen. Some of them eat so much I am surprised. But the ones who eat that much, they are the ones who are always sick. They're the ones. Overeating means sick. I used to eat a lot, but I used to burn it all off. They don't know if you eat a lot and then work very hard, that's all right. But they eat a lot and then sleep a lot, as Mahārāja said. If they would simply work. Eat a lot, all right, but then work very hard. Then it's all digested. They eat a lot at midday, and then they're useless for the rest of the day. Sleep two or three hours in the afternoon and then stagger out for ārati . Now they eat in the morning. So, how to manage this? It is very difficult. I thought it was better when they were eating at noon. At least they'd work before they ate, work before eating. But I don't know. But even then the thing wasn't going any better. I've found if you want things to go on, you have to make them do it. That's all. Because they don't have sufficient realization to volunteer to work. They have to be . . . one man say: "You come here, you do this, you do this." Then it will be done. *Like this twenty*-four-hour . . . The temple commander must be a very able man. He's got to be a heavy man. I was telling Haṁsadūta, when I was here I tried for so long to get the kīrtana going at nighttime, and they wouldn't turn up or they'd fall asleep, or this or that. And so many people would refuse to do it. I could only get maybe five or six men out of the whole temple who would volunteer to do it. So we worked it out. We made a list of all the people who could possibly chant at night. Everyone. I even put the pūjārīs down, because we were short of men. And then we said: "Now you either chant . . ." No, pūjārīs , they have to rise early. Well, yes, but apart from that . . . we told them, "Now you either chant this one hour at night or you go." We made 'em chant. And then everything went very nicely. No one . . . Why don't you do now? Well I told him that. He's going to do it. Not tell him, but you do it. (chuckles) No, his suggestion is good, because one hour they can do. I've noticed . . . Your Divine Grace suggested three hours . . . Three hours continually not possible. Make it one hour. It's impossible. Not a single person can do it. (indistinct) . . . (end) Conversation -- October 4, 1976, Vrndavana People have got already very respect now for the . . . (break) You should maintain the temple. They already call it angrej (English) temple. But still people come. But if you make a mleccha temple . . . actually, (laughs) they can say like that, but still they come. But their awe and veneration may be disturbed . . . may not be disturbed. That is management. One of the things they haven't been able to criticize us for is our Deity worship. Hmm? One of the things they can't criticize is our Deity worship, because it's a lot better than anywhere else. But we are not above criticism. Oh, no, they criticize us for plenty of other things. So many discrepancies. Even that does not mean . . . That's one point . . . that was one point in our favor, so we should maintain it. The servant should be kept only when that is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, everything should be done by us. I understand that, Prabhupāda. They are paying two thousand rupees. 'Till now, as far as possible, I've let a number of people go already. But until I can get the devotees to do these engagements, I can't let the servant go. No, that's all right, but devotees, why they shall not do? Well, that is the . . . If they are unwilling to do, then they must remain in the guesthouse as a respectable guest. I'm finding that's happening. I have so many devotees who stay in the guesthouse, because they're not willing to be engaged. They are paying? They are paying, yes. So it will have to be dealt with very, very tactfully, because for a long time there's been so many devotees here who just have not been engaged. And now someone is coming and he's trying to capture them . . . Reluctant to work. . . . trying to take account of their time, and they become upset. They think, "Oh, now this man is going to take my time." Yes, yes. Just for example . . . (break) ". . . chanting from nine to twelve, could you please chant then?" She became furious. She said: "I am already making garlands for four hours. I have no time." No, no, if she is making garlands, that is another thing. *I know, but it's only four hours, and I said there are twenty*-four hours, so that leaves twenty hours left over. It will take a little time to account their time and convince them that they have to accept more and more engagement. It's like pulling a tooth. No, if somebody is engaged in some business, so he may not chant. That concession may be given. But chanting . . . But, actually . . . It is not very compulsory. Take it. *But if we want to have a twenty*-four-hour kīrtana , I was speaking . . . If that is not available, not possible, don't be very serious. But these things must be done. Yes. It's just that I want to comply with all your desires. *That may be taken as voluntarily. But nobody can sit idly. That is the point. If one is engaged in making for flower garland, all right, you may not take him. It is not compulsory for you. The twenty*-four-hours kīrtana may . . . suppose if we haven't got sufficient men, it is not possible. It is required if there is sufficient men and they are not . . . we must see that they are not wasting uselessly time. That is the . . . if they are engaged in some business, there is no compulsory that he has to go and chant. But these things are . . . *Śrī*-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau. That is compulsory. It must be done by you or me or . . . it must be done early in the morning. Whole temple should be . . . there is sufficient water supply in the pipe. Simply it takes half an hour. It is neglected. I see the temple is not washed. There's so much dust. We used to wash it three times a day. How it is stopped? With great difficulty, of course. Hmm? With great difficulty. But still, it can be done. So these devotees, they come here not to work. It is a fashion. They come to be bābājīs . Ācchā ? Like that. Consciousness is like that. Yesterday two girls came. One came from Paris and one came from Australia. When I asked them, "Did anyone send you for a particular engagement?" They said: "No, I just left." "How did you get your money?" "From my family." Then, "Why did you come?" "We just wanted to see Vṛndāvana," and like that. And in this way, every day someone is coming, and as soon as I want to . . . they will say: "Well, I didn't come for this. I came . . ." But that's all right, if they then remain in the paying guest. Yes. I don't want to discourage them, but at the same time I can't have people just sitting around. No, those who are coming for excursion, they can remain in the paying guest room. Pay for food, pay for . . . otherwise, one has to be engaged. Devotee must voluntarily engage. Why one has to be requested? They should be very glad. They're not very conscious about doing service. But this is the service. He used to be the temple commander, Hari-śauri. He had a very difficult time, before, about a year ago, I think. He used to be the temple commander, and nobody would . . . I had to practically throw them out the room sometimes to do some work. This center particularly has just always been like that. (break) All the anxiety is how to get some fruit to maintain their body nicely. Very few devotees can actually accept engagement and maintain good health and a good consciousness, because the change for Western people for India is so extraordinary that it disturbs their mind, and consequently their body is disturbed, and then all they think about is how to maintain their body. They're used to eating large quantities of food. Here it cannot be done. And if I ask them . . . they're used to eating huge amounts of very rich foods. Where? In the West. In the Western temples. They get so many nice foodstuffs which are not available here, and when they become sick, then they . . . What rich food? Oh, like sour cream and butter and so many things, and all kinds of fruits and vegetables. In the West, the devotees must eat about four times as much as the ones in India who are not sick. The ones in India . . . I see that here they eat more. They appear to eat a lot. But I don't know. The food here is not . . . Not so rich. It's not got so much nutritional value. It's simpler. But I've seen boys here, they have been here a year or two years and they've had dysentery constantly, because they cannot control their tongues. They eat, and then they get sick, they get dysentery, so they say: "Oh, I need boiled this and fruit and this and that." But then again you see them on the first feast, or something like that, they're eating kachorī or this or that, stuff cooked in ghee. And then immediately they become sick again, and they can't do any work all the time, and at the same time they refuse to control their tongues to get better. They stay on that platform. Always sick, but not eating the correct food. This is one of our biggest problems. Just as you say, when someone gets sick he should fast. I tell them, "Stop eating. You'll get well immediately. If you have fever, don't eat. Take water, lemon. You'll be all right in a few days." They have not realized the function of the body, how their own body is functioning, and they insist on eating. They get sicker and sicker. They complicate things. I've seen so many people get incredibly complicated digestive diseases. And then they can't work. They get jaundice, they get dysentery, amoebic dysentery, boils—all these things come from taking too much food. And then they want to change their diet. Although they change their diet, they eat so much of the changed diet that it also has no effect. Yes, true. Actually, this is the main problem. And then they require money for medicine. I have spent so much money on medicine. Now I have stopped it. I tell them, "First you fast for three days, and if you don't get better I'll give you some money for medicine." But they are constantly running to this hospital, getting this pill and that pill. All these pills are useless. The real problem is they are just overeating. And of course, when they overeat they want to sleep. Because India is hot. And when they sleep, then they get dysentery. And when they get dysentery they can't engage. And in this way they run into a cycle which is very difficult to break. Only very few devotees are able to maintain themselves in India for any length of time. I see a nice strong man comes, and I look at him and I see him eat and I say: "Within a week this man is going to be sick." And sure enough, he's sick. He's laying down, he's got fever, he's got dysentery, he's going to the hospital. In this way we have so many people like that. They become so weak that they can't work anyway. So they just become a liability. I had one devotee, his name was Rad . . . (break) . . . you know and you know. He does nothing at all. He's always sick. But at prasādam he eats more than any other man. I told him, "Prabhu, you're a doctor. You should know that if you eat so much food you can't digest, you're going to be sick." He says: "No, I'm so weak I require food. I have to. I can't get any strength." So I asked him, "At least sit down in the temple and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." He said: "I can't . . ." I have seen. Some of them eat so much I am surprised. But the ones who eat that much, they are the ones who are always sick. They're the ones. Overeating means sick. I used to eat a lot, but I used to burn it all off. They don't know if you eat a lot and then work very hard, that's all right. But they eat a lot and then sleep a lot, as Mahārāja said. If they would simply work. Eat a lot, all right, but then work very hard. Then it's all digested. They eat a lot at midday, and then they're useless for the rest of the day. Sleep two or three hours in the afternoon and then stagger out for ārati . Now they eat in the morning. So, how to manage this? It is very difficult. I thought it was better when they were eating at noon. At least they'd work before they ate, work before eating. But I don't know. But even then the thing wasn't going any better. I've found if you want things to go on, you have to make them do it. That's all. Because they don't have sufficient realization to volunteer to work. They have to be . . . one man say: "You come here, you do this, you do this." Then it will be done. *Like this twenty*-four-hour . . . The temple commander must be a very able man. He's got to be a heavy man. I was telling Haṁsadūta, when I was here I tried for so long to get the kīrtana going at nighttime, and they wouldn't turn up or they'd fall asleep, or this or that. And so many people would refuse to do it. I could only get maybe five or six men out of the whole temple who would volunteer to do it. So we worked it out. We made a list of all the people who could possibly chant at night. Everyone. I even put the pūjārīs down, because we were short of men. And then we said: "Now you either chant . . ." No, pūjārīs , they have to rise early. Well, yes, but apart from that . . . we told them, "Now you either chant this one hour at night or you go." We made 'em chant. And then everything went very nicely. No one . . . Why don't you do now? Well I told him that. He's going to do it. Not tell him, but you do it. (chuckles) No, his suggestion is good, because one hour they can do. I've noticed . . . Your Divine Grace suggested three hours . . . Three hours continually not possible. Make it one hour. It's impossible. Not a single person can do it. (indistinct) . . . (end) Arrival -- October 9, 1976, Aligarh (Arrival Talk at House of Surendra Kumar Saigal) *. . . very glad to see you again. So this saṅkīrtana is all*-glorious. That is the blessings of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. This is His blessing: simply by saṅkīrtana , in this age. It is confirmed in the Vedic literature, in Vedānta-sūtra, śabdād anāvṛtti. Anāvṛtti , liberation. Our present position is bondage. We are bound up by the laws of nature. We may foolishly declare independence—that is our foolishness—but actually we are bound up by the laws of nature. We are bound up by the laws of nature, but those who are fools, vimūdhātmā , under false prestige, such person thinks that he is independent. No. That is not. *So this is misunderstanding. So this misunderstanding has to be cleaned. That is the aim of life. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends that if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , then the first installment of benefit is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Because misunderstanding means within the heart. If the heart is clear, consciousness is clear, then there is no misunderstanding. So this consciousness has to be cleansed, and that is the first installment of the result of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅga paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa's, kṛṣṇasya , holy name of Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma, the same thing. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa there is no difference. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan (BS 5.39). So we require. The present position is misunderstanding that, "I am product of this material nature," "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am kṣatriya ," and so on, so on . . . so many designations. But we are none of them. This is the clearing. Ceto-darpaṇa. When you understand clearly that "I am not a Indian, I'm not a American, I'm not brāhmaṇa , I'm not kṣatriya "—means "I am not this body"—then the consciousness will be ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Brahmā-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). This is wanted. This is success of life. Otherwise, if we remain in darkness of our existence . . . everyone is abodha-jāto . Anyone born in this material world in different platform . . . one may take birth as demigod in the heavenly planets or one may take birth as a human being in the lower planets. And lower than that, animal, plants. There are 8,400,000 different species of life. *So any form of life, we are bound up by the laws of nature, and bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). The puruṣaḥ . . . puruṣaḥ means the living entity. Puruṣaḥ . . . actually, nobody is puruṣaḥ; *everyone is prakṛti. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtim parā (BG 7.5). Parā prakṛti. The material, matter, is the aparā*-prakṛti , and spirit soul is parā-prakṛti . So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly explained, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). This is . . . bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā . This is separated. This is also nature, but inferior. Apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā . There is another prakṛti . What is that? Jīva-bhūto , this living entity. So living entity is also prakṛti , but because he has the tendency to enjoy this material world, he is sometimes described as puruṣaḥ . Puruṣaḥ means enjoyer, and prakṛti means enjoyed. So the prakṛti forgets her position, and artificially he wants to become puruṣaḥ. *So this puruṣaḥ, prakṛti 'stho . . . puruṣaḥ prakṛti 'stho bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān , so long he's in this material world, he has to associate with the modes of material nature, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān . And on account of the influence of the prakṛti-jān guṇa , he has to take different types of body. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti 'stho bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). This is the kāraṇa. He's associating with a particular type of the modes of prakṛti-jān guṇān—sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa —and on account of this he gets different types of body. You have to change your body. Dehāntaram. Tathā dehāntaram-prāptir (BG 2.13). But different grades of body is awarded by the laws of nature according to our karma, karmaṇā daiva netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). *So this is . . . our material position is that we are associating with different modes of material nature, and that is infection. If you become infected with some disease, germs, then you have to suffer from that disease. You cannot check it. Similarly, this infection will give us our next body. That we do not know. This is a rascal civilization. They're kept into the darkness, that how things are going on. Their so*-called education, universities . . . so whatever they are doing, they are all being defeated. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam (SB 5.5.5). Ātma-tattvam . Unless one is inquisitive to understand, "What I am?" whatever he is doing, he's being defeated. That's all. Parābhavaḥ. *So the human life is meant for understanding what is the position, "What I am?" This is the intelligence. When Sanātana Gosvāmī approached Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu he was minister, very big man, but he understood that "What I am doing is not to my interest, because I do not know what I am." He submitted to Caitanya Mahāprabhu that grāmya*-vyavahāre kahe paṇḍita satya kari māni (CC Madhya 20.100): that "In my relationship with my neighbors, they call 'paṇḍitjī' .'" He was brāhmaṇa . "So I accept it, 'Yes, I am paṇḍit .'" So what is the wrong? "The wrong is that I am such a paṇḍita that I do not know what I am." (laughs) So ask anybody. Our Dr. Sukla is also . . . (chuckles) So ask any doctor, "What you are?" "Huh? I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa ." This answer you'll get. "I'm American." Nobody will say ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Nobody will say. Nobody will say, because he does not know. So what is the value of this education if one does not know what he is? Therefore śāstra says parābhavaḥ . In ignorance, gross ignorance, anything we are doing, that is parābhava . So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to save the people from this defeating position. We are trying . . . so far I have tried single-handed. And now the . . . a little pressure is felt even by some American politicians. Recently one American politician has remarked that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is just like epidemic. (laughs) And if we do not take any step, then within ten years they'll take our government." So the Communists in India, they are trying to defeat us in so many ways. We have seen the articles in Blitz. *Because they are also afraid. Because the Communist movement means godlessness. And our movement is, "Here is God." There is no blind faith. "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa! You take His name, you take His address—everything." Practical. So that is a great cause of fear for these Communists. So they are against us. So now I shall request the śreṣṭhas , those who are leading persons in India, they should join this movement, take it seriously. It is not a bogus movement. It is a scientific movement. And we have so many books. Now, at the present moment, we have got eighty*-four books. So that is my request, that people should come forward. (whispering in background) They should come forward and take seriously this movement. And we have got our places. In Bombay we have got big place. In Vṛndāvana we have got big place. In Nadia we have got big place. At least elderly gentlemen like you, now you should retire from family life and leave in charge of the grown-up boys. You should take seriously, for India's interest, for everyone's interest, but as we want . . . *We should not keep people in darkness. That is very risky. Very risky. But you may be very proud that, "I am this, I am that. I have to . . ." but you are after all under the control of the laws of nature. That you cannot avoid. You may be falsely proud, but you have to abide by it. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is not so easy. Actually, nature's law, you can eat once chatak . If you eat little more than that, then there is indigestion immediately—you have to go to the doctor. So what is your independence? You cannot violate a little portion of the laws of nature. So many. In every step. As soon as you violate, immediately there is punishment. And still, we are declaring independence. Asatyam. (aside) What is that? Where is Bhagavad*-gītā ? Find out. Jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad ahur anīśvaram. "There is no God." Why you say there is no . . .? You are under control. There is a controller—otherwise, how you are under control? So this foolishness must be stopped in order to make them happy, really happy. Otherwise, if they are kept into ignorance and things go on like this, then the future picture is very gloomy. It has already become gloomy, and future is very, very gloomy. So everyone should come forward, take this movement seriously, and at least, we are Indians, we should take care of Indians. We should not keep people in ignorance. That is not civilization. That is not civilization. Civilization means tamasi mā jyotir gama: come to the light. Don't keep yourself in darkness. That is not civilization. That . . . this civilization is keeping people in darkness. That is very risky. So we should take it very seriously and push this movement very scientifically, soberly, and people will be benefited. Any question? What are the . . . our Prime Minister's view regarding this movement? So far I know, she likes this movement. But she is also not independent. That's true. Nobody is independent. Even she. *Recently, one of my students met the Home Minister. He said: "Yes, this movement should be spread all over the world." They are appreciating. But there are different parties, different circumstances. Our four items—no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no gambling—so I think they are taking some steps on this ground. They are trying to stop cow-killing. *Yes, they have already banned cow*-killing. And they are going to take steps for intoxication. Stopping intoxication and actually, these are the things which can build up the character of the nation and . . . No!no! We are already intoxicated in material existence, and if more intoxication is there, then very . . . Yes. From bad to worse. Yes. So this civilization, this education is simply misleading. Simply misleading. There is no enlightenment of this question, "What I am?" No. No answer. Mahārāja, now we have present here some Life Members of ISKCON. Oh. (break) Life Members should be active Life Members. (laughter) Yes. Aur isme kuch sandeh hai toh puchiye. (And if there is any doubt about this then ask.) If there is any doubt. Mahārāja, the one who brought ISKCON to this house is that boy, son of my . . . who became first Life Member of ISKCON. Oh, very intelligent. Subodh. His name is Subodha and which means the understanding. Very intelligent. Subodha means . . . Good Understanding. Just, just I was talking of abodh . Yes. Abodh . (laughter) Yes. So far you had been mentioning . . . *Yes, abodha*-jāto . *Yes, abodha*-jāto and he is already subodha . He is subodha . He knows his . . . (indistinct) . . . evaṁ budhe paraṁ buddha . You were suggesting to me that . . . Parābhavaḥ. One who is abodha , he is parābhava. Parābhava , defeated. Defeat. And one is subodha , he is victory. So human life is meant for becoming subhodha , not abodha . But they are keeping abodha . This is the difficulty. Everyone is abodha . *Mahārāja, I had a gentleman talking to me who is very intimate with Sanjay Gandhi. And he was telling me that Sanjay Gandhi very forcefully hinted, "Why are you people not working now? Why is the Arya*-samaj silent? Why the other powerful sects and movements are not working? Why have you taken this country into the hands of Muslims?" These were his words. "Why do you want that the country should depend, or the government should depend, on the support of Muslims? Where are you? What are you doing? Why don't you come up?" But our government is supporting them all right, you see. Swami Mahārāja said that they are forces which, when if you want to keep yourself in power, you have to sometimes bend and this . . . That's true. *Apart from government, the first thing is that the . . . sometimes we say "Rāma*-rājya." The Rāma-rājya means . . . there is a verse in Bhāgavatam that when Lord Rāmacandra took charge of the . . . after coming back from the forest, His brother Bhārata surrendered and He took charge of the kingdom. So the residents, the subjects, are described as a varṇāśrama guṇānvitā . Varnāśrama gunan . . .? *Guṇānvitā. So Rāma*-rājya can be established. And it is said there that Lord Rāmacandra was maintaining the kingdom, taking the citizens as His own son. Pitṛvat rāma . It is said there. Pitṛvat . As the father of the family takes charge of the children very nicely, it is the government's duty to become the sensible father of the citizens. And the citizens should be qualified following the institution of varṇāśrama . Then there will be Rāma-rājya . That's the most scientific understanding . . . No. Prabhupāda had rightly said in one of the meetings in Delhi that you people try to follow people who are in power. If Indira Gandhi were to do mālā just like this, I'm sure millions of people in India would be doing mālā like this. So she's doing that. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). "But you will not follow me because I have no political power; therefore you have not . . ." Aise bhi mala japo, kyun apne idhar udhar ki baat sohte ho. Bhagvan ka naam lo wo nahi karega. Lekin Indraji karne lagenge Sanjay gandhi karne lage, toh sab log ke gale me mala daal ne lagenge aur wo karne lagenge. That is why we chant. Why you are thinking of talks of here and there. Take names of lord that you will not do. But if Indraji and Sanjay Gandhi will do then everybody will put flower garlands on their neck and then they will follow. Yatha Raja tatha praja . He is my eldest grandson. Aur ye Sanadar me . . . (indistinct) (And in Sanadar he is . . . (indistinct) . . .) He is subhoda or abodha . (laughter) No, he is Suvrata , Suvrata . Suvrata . . . Kya arth hota hai batao? (What is the meaning of Suvrata , tell me?) Please describe God. (laughter) Do you know what is God? Do you know? Do you know what is God or not? I want to know. I want to know. Do you know the meaning of the God? No. Then how you are asking what is God? If I say something wrong, how you'll understand? If you do not know . . . suppose you go to purchase something, "Give me gold," and if he gives you iron, then what you'll do? If you do not know what is God, gold. You must know first of all what is God. Then you ask. If you do not know, then you'll be cheated. That is going on. That is going on. Mahārāja, but there must be somebody to say that, "This is gold and this is iron." Yes, that means requires a superior education. Superior education. Yes. The father, mother should be responsible . . . So who can be a greater than your Divine Grace? *No, no. The father, father . . . the first thing is that why do you send your sons to the school? It is the duty that he should know. So if the father is a rascal, then how the son can be subodha ? (laughter) Therefore the śāstra says that unless you can train your son to overcome this process of birth, death, old . . . don't become a father. You remain a rascal. Don't beget children. This is contraception. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum (SB 5.5.18). The real problem is mṛtyu . But they have taken it that, "It is ordinary thing." But nobody wants to die. The education is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). But who knows that I do not die after the destruction of the body? Then why I am put into this position that I have to change this body, I have to die? This question does not arise. Therefore they're abodha . The instruction is, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). There is no inquiry that, "If I'm not born, why I am born in this body?" This is question. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . "If I am not subjected to death, then why I am dying?" This question does not arise at all. Therefore everyone is abodha-jāto . Nobody is subodha . Everyone is abodha . The problem is there, but he does not inquire. Excuse me. Mahārāja, don't you think it's high time that some of our Indian philosophy or Indian religion, some classes should be started in schools like they used to have and missionaries used to have scripture classes in schools. There should be in all the schools, I mean, classes on our own religion instead of learning somebody else's. *It is not only . . . when we say that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā . . . (BG 2.13), so as this boy, he was a child, now he has become a boy, then after few years he'll become a young man, and then he'll become middle*-aged man, then he'll become old man—so this is not "Our religion," "Your religion." This is fact, scientific. When Bhagavad-gītā says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā , that is not meant for the so-called Hindus. It is meant for the Muslim, meant for the Christian, everyone. It is science. Religion is a kind of faith. That they describe. But religion is also not a blind faith. Religion means the order of God. That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Just like law means the order of the state. Similarly, religion means the order of God. So if you have no conception of God, if you do not know what is God, what is order, then where is religion? It is all bogus. What my sister was saying was that most of the parents do not understand. Yes. How they should bring up their progeny. Then at least they . . . Children should have . . . (indistinct) At least, the children should be . . . therefore I'm starting that gurukula in Vṛndāvana. So you come, you manage that, take the ideas, make your children . . . whatever mistake is done is done. Now why the mistake should continue? Rectify it. Swamiji isme ek fark ye padta hai nah, agar hum apne aap karte hai toh secularism mai nahi aata hai. (Swamiji, the difference it makes is that if we do that, then it doesn't come under secularism.) Then kick out secularism. Kick out secularism. Wo scientific nahi hai. (It is not scientific.) Science. It is science. Science is nothing. What is God, what is nature, what is soul. You don't give it the name of one particular way. You simply deal it with the basic idea of transforming the human . . . *That I have already explained. When a child becomes a boy, there is no question of secularism. It is science. It is fact. Can you by secularism stop a child growing to become a boy? When I was explaining in South Africa, this thing, one Arya*-samaji friend, he criticized me, that "Why you are bringing Hindu ideas?" So I said: "Is it Hindu ideas? A child grows to become a boy. It is Hindu idea? Why you are so fool you're calling Hindu idea?" A child grows to become a boy. This is science. The law of nature. Yes. *Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). Naturally . . . *But because it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , they take it Hindu idea. This is nonsense. Our approach is so wrong that people take it as . . . Immediately we can pass in a sectarian . . . That is why it is necessary to have this as a part of social studies like you have other subjects in schools. If it is not given any more . . . *But then, as soon as you say " Bhagavad*-gītā ," immediately, "Hindu." What sister wants to know is that how can we add in innumerable, rather, uncountless schools and colleges? The management will be most willing, I mean, the progressive management will be most willing to introduce classes where such laws of nature and such . . . on scientific line, without giving it a Hindu or religious name. That should be taught. A curriculum should be drawn up. Because we control some of the schools. That is my program. I am writing all book just only on this point, therefore they are coming. Otherwise, what is the use? They were Christians and Jews. What is the use of becoming Hindus? Yes. *So anyone wants to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they can understand easily if he joins, Hare Kṛṣṇa, chant. That is all right. If he wants to understand scientifically, there are eighty*-four books. Come on. Which way you want? No. What we want is a very simple curriculum. Elementary type. Simple, this is simple curriculum. So that they gradually, as a child grows into adolescence, when his intelligence also grows, his knowledge also grows. And then we give him still more deeper knowledge of the various things which we have been teaching on elementary basis. And then still deeper. Just like this. Just like this child, this boy, inquired, "What is God?" So he can be instructed that, "God is the supreme controller, just like your father is your controller." He'll accept this. Can you go against your father's will? He says no. He'll say, naturally. Sun rahe tum? (Are you listening?) . . . how he's spreading it. So, he'll understand English? He's angrej? (laughter) He looks like angrej. Maharaj hindi bhi bahut achi samjhta hai. (Mahārāja, he also understands Hindi very well.) Very good. Mahabharata, Ramayana sab padliya isne. (He reads *Mahābhārata* , *Rāmāyaṇa* etc.) Just like at home you are controlled by your parents. Is it not? You like to obey them? (to Suvrata) You like to obey them, or sometimes you don't want to obey them? *Similarly, you take the whole world as a big family. So there must be somebody father and controller. Otherwise, how it is being conducted? That is God, the supreme controller. Just like in your family the father is the controller, similarly, you take it in wide scale, broader scale, there must be somebody father. Therefore the Christians, they take it, "O Father, give us our daily bread." And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is also confirmed, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā . (break) Then he decided, "Yes, I shall fight." Kṛṣṇa inquired from him, "Now I have instructed you. Now, whatever you like you can do. And what is your decision?" Then he clearly said, "Yes, my decision is there. I'll fight." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). "As You advise, I understand that You want this fighting." So Vaiṣṇava means for the sake of Kṛṣṇa he can do anything. Not that he is lazy fellow, showing, "I have become very big Vaiṣṇava. Let me sleep under the name of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava must be very busy, always awaiting the order of the . . . ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). "What is Kṛṣṇa's order? What does He want?" and He is ready. Just like a servant is always ready to receive the order of the master. That is faithful servant. That is real servant and not that at night duty he is sleeping somewhere. No. That is not faithful servant. Faithful servant means always alert. And that is bhakti . Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam bhaktir uttama (CC Madhya 19.167). Simply one has to execute ānukūlyena , how Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. This is bhakti . *So the Hanumān is example. Hanumān was ordered to bring some medicine from some mountain. And he was a monkey, he was animal, he did not know how to pick up it—"Take the whole mountain. Execute the order. And then Rāmacandra and Lakṣmana, They'll find out what is that medicine." So this is Vaiṣṇava. In one's own capacity he should give the best service to the Lord and that is bhakti. Bhakti is not laziness. If somebody thinks that, "The bhaktas are lazy fellows, and they are out of the worldly activity," that is mistake. It is mistake. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam . Kṛṣṇa says personally, yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat tapasyasi yat kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27): "Come on! Do it for Me." That is bhakti . He does not say that "You become a lazy fellow. Give up your occupational duty and sleep and snore, and become a great devotee." No. He never says. He says that "You are attached to this kind of work. All right, do it, but the result you give Me," that is bhakti . "Arjuna, you are a military man. All right, I ask you to fight. You become a fighter and become My devotee." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me (BG 4.3). Just see. What is that? He was not chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa says, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: "You are very dear friend and My devotee." Did he go on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra . . . so not that imitation. Of course, ultimate is always be absorbed in glorifying the Lord. But not in the beginning. In the beginning you must work very hard; you come to the stage of pure devotional platform. Then you can fully engage yourself meditation or chanting. Not in the beginning. In the beginning you should be very expert and active. That is wanted. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . udilo , from the early in the morning, active. "Come on, chant. Come with Me so that others will see. If we make a party chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, so in the beginning they may be disturbed because they have been accustomed to sleep up to nine o'clock, but as they will hear, gradually they'll become purified. They'll receive it." *So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He practically did it, and He asked everyone to do it. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "This is My order." He could remain a big devotee at His home. He was very popular in Navadvīpa, even when He was twenty years old. But still, He took sannyāsa and went door to door, village to village, town to town in India, and He left His order, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma: "All over the world, as many towns and villages are there, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be . . ." (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). Not that "We are big, big gosvāmīs and bābājīs . We do not go out of Vṛndāvana." They say that "We do not go out of . . ." You are imitating them. (chuckles) Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma . And they have become very big Vaiṣṇava: "No, I don't go beyond the limits of Vṛndāvana." What is this nonsense? Did Caitanya Mahāprabhu say like that, that "You do not go beyond the limits . . ."? A devotee, wherever he is, that is Vṛndāvana. That is Vṛndāvana. Tīrtha-kurvanti tīrthāni (SB 1.13.10). A devotee, a pure devotee, can make any hell a tīrtha, a holy place. That is devotee. Tīrthī-kurvanti tīrthāni . That was Bhagīratha. Gaṅgā was hesitating, mother Gaṅgā, that "I shall go to the material world. People will take . . . all sinful men will take bathing, and I'll be overloaded with sin. Then how I shall get out of this sinful, accumulation of sins?" So the Bhagīratha said, "My mother, don't hesitate. When a holy man will take bath in your water, then all the sins he will assimilate." Then she agreed, "Yes. That's all right" So if we become holy man, actually, then immune. There is no difference. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. These are bogus that, "I do not go out of Vṛndāvana." They are making Vṛndāvana limited. Vṛndāvana is not limited. Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, wherever there is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple, that is Vṛndāvana. That is Vṛndāvana. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He, once only, He went to Vṛndāvana. Does it mean He was not in Vṛndāvana? So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that preaching must go on in hell and heaven. We should be very much expert and follow the instruction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the simple instructions. Mukunda mādhava yādava hari bolena bolo re vadana bori . Simply chant the holy names of Lord, mukunda mādhava yādava . This is Caitanya . . . rise early in the morning. You go preach, and work hard, day and night, and that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . this song indicates. That's all. Thank you. Jaya . (offer obeisances) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ye jagah toh bahut hai, idhar ek mandir banayenge. (This place is very big. Here we will make a temple.) Abhi toh urban ceiling act me, wo isme se zameen lena chahte hai. (Now in the urban ceiling act, they want to take a piece of land from this) Toh hum log ko de dijiye, mandir banalenge. Bahut aadmi de raha hai, bahut aadmi. (Then you give it to us and we will construct a temple. Many people are giving. Many people . . .) They are offering their . . . we have received one letter, telegram, from one gentleman. What is his name? Patel? Bhogilal Patel. He's very rich man. So I was sometimes guest in his house. He is very friendly. He comes to see me in Bombay. Old man. He is older than me, one or two years. But he has sent me one telegram, "Swāmījī, take this land, one hundred acres of land in Ahmedabad." In . . .? Ahmedabad. Ahmedabad. Yes. So . . . there are so many. One gentleman has offered land in Mahabaleshwar. Mahabaleshwar. This is very costly place. Very costly place and very nice place. (laughs) Very nice. And wherefrom other offers we have got? Hyderabad we have. Hyderabad he has already . . . that is six hundred acres of land. What is the name of that place? Do you remember? Where? Hyderabad? No. We called it New Naimiṣāraṇya. No, we have named New Naimiṣāraṇya. A very nice place. *You'll get a lot of offers. And as you rightly said that these Vaiṣṇavas, they want to become maṭha*-deśas , they want to become like kings. They don't want to leave their empire and go out, working hard like you and spreading the message of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Yes. That is our mission. That is the right attitude. Even if there is one bhakta , there is Vṛndāvana. *Yes. Bhakta will create Vṛndāvana. Kṛṣṇa says, nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭha (Padma Purāṇa): "I do not stay in Vaikuṇṭha." Nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭhe yogināṁ hṛdayeṣu . "Neither I stay at the heart, core of the heart of the yogīs." Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad*-bhaktāḥ. "When My pure devotee chants the glories of My . . . I immediately stay there. I immediately stay." It's not that He is packed up in some place. He's all-pervading. Vasudeva. Vāsudeva. Therefore His name is Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). He's everywhere. Electricity is everywhere. Only one who knows how to take the electricity . . . so Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching and teaching, they're perfect. You have to follow. Then our life will be successful. Don't manufacture ideas. That is not wanted. Ye log manufacture kiya, ye hindu samdra ka par jaane se hi ekdum . . . (indistinct) hai na? And these people manufactured that this hindu as he crossed the ocean has become fallen. Isn't it? *(indistinct) . . . Has fallen. Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). Bas toh samudra paar kaise nahi hoga? Ye sab chal raha hai. (But then how this ocean will not be crossed. These things are going on.) Foolish theories. Just see. As soon as you cross over the Bay of Bengal or Indian Ocean, you'll become immediately fallen. You become an outcaste. (laughs) That's all. Our Madan Mohan Malaviya, he was invited Round Table conference. He took so much Ganges earth. He was mixing that Ganges earth with water. He's going for political purposes, and showing a . . . what is called? Hobby. This is not that. Now this movement is there, and unless we do it very sincerely and vigorously, it cannot be pushed on. Dekhiye na, Vrindaban me jitna goswami hai. (Now see in Vṛndāvana there are many goswamis .) Ji. (Yes.) Wo sab combine ho karke. bhi, ye humara koi pride ka baat nahi. Jo kaam humne kiya hai, wo nahi kar sakte. (Even if they combine. This is nothing related to my pride. But whatever work i have done they cannot do.) Nahi kar sakte. Maharaaj, kitne honge apne ab ye disciples antardeshiye. (They cannot do. Mahārāja! How many disciples might be there all over the world.) Initiated hoga toh koi 10,000. Dekhiye is tarah se hai sab. (If initiated then 10,000. See this is like this . . .) Initiated dus hazaar. (Initiated 10,000.) Aur ye sab followers log hai. Jo kitaab par rahe hai, ye jo daily 5 lakhs 6 lakhs jo kitaab beek raha hai, koi padta hai nahi koi . . . (indistinct) . . . Padta hai hum ko malum hai. (And like this there are many followers. Some are reading books daily five lakhs , six lakhs Books are selling somebody studies or comes and reads on street. I know that they study.) Life member kitne hai humare? (There are how many Life Members.) Life members toh hum idhar hi kiya tha. (Life Member cultivation I have done here.) Udhar nahi kiye? (There you haven't done.) No . . . Life Member. We have Life Member? In London. London's about fifteen hundred. Where? In London, Amsterdam and Montreal. We're making Life Members everywhere now. Africa. How many Life Members in India? Must have at least ten thousand. No. Target must be 10,000. No. Indian, everyone should become a Life Member. Certainly. Everybody like us are there with devotees. And it is India's duty that everyone should take up such a cultural movement. That is India's glory. I have given one statement, I do not know whether it is published. The, some of the places, they are against me. So where is that copy? Have you got that copy? I don't know which . . . Hmm. I've given one statement . . . Mahārāja, have you sent that reply to that questionnaire which was sent to you from Bhavan's Journal? Bhavan's Journal sent you a questionnaire. *Yes. I have sent that answer. Eighty-four pages. For twenty*-one questions I have answered eighty-four pages. I think in Delhi you must call a press conference. Aadmi itna dull hogaya, ye sab baat samajhta hi nahi. Samajhta hai, still leta nahi. (People have become so dull that they do not understand these talks. They understand still . . .) Samajhta hai, lekin political jab tak ke yo usko politically ve kar leta, usko samjhne ki koshis nahi karta. (They understand but until and unless the politician accept, they don't want to understand.) (break) . . . by seeing him, if we remember Kṛṣṇa, he is Vaiṣṇava. He never said that you must be born in a brāhmaṇa family or . . . no. If by seeing him only one remembers Kṛṣṇa, then that person is Vaiṣṇava. So couldn't that point be expressed to the government, somehow? Well, emergency government. (laughs) They can do anything immediately. Sir, these nationalities, I mean . . . (break) (end) Arrival -- October 9, 1976, Aligarh (Arrival Talk at House of Surendra Kumar Saigal) *. . . very glad to see you again. So this saṅkīrtana is all*-glorious. That is the blessings of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. This is His blessing: simply by saṅkīrtana , in this age. It is confirmed in the Vedic literature, in Vedānta-sūtra, śabdād anāvṛtti. Anāvṛtti , liberation. Our present position is bondage. We are bound up by the laws of nature. We may foolishly declare independence—that is our foolishness—but actually we are bound up by the laws of nature. We are bound up by the laws of nature, but those who are fools, vimūdhātmā , under false prestige, such person thinks that he is independent. No. That is not. *So this is misunderstanding. So this misunderstanding has to be cleaned. That is the aim of life. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends that if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , then the first installment of benefit is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Because misunderstanding means within the heart. If the heart is clear, consciousness is clear, then there is no misunderstanding. So this consciousness has to be cleansed, and that is the first installment of the result of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅga paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa's, kṛṣṇasya , holy name of Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma, the same thing. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa there is no difference. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan (BS 5.39). So we require. The present position is misunderstanding that, "I am product of this material nature," "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am kṣatriya ," and so on, so on . . . so many designations. But we are none of them. This is the clearing. Ceto-darpaṇa. When you understand clearly that "I am not a Indian, I'm not a American, I'm not brāhmaṇa , I'm not kṣatriya "—means "I am not this body"—then the consciousness will be ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Brahmā-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). This is wanted. This is success of life. Otherwise, if we remain in darkness of our existence . . . everyone is abodha-jāto . Anyone born in this material world in different platform . . . one may take birth as demigod in the heavenly planets or one may take birth as a human being in the lower planets. And lower than that, animal, plants. There are 8,400,000 different species of life. *So any form of life, we are bound up by the laws of nature, and bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). The puruṣaḥ . . . puruṣaḥ means the living entity. Puruṣaḥ . . . actually, nobody is puruṣaḥ; *everyone is prakṛti. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtim parā (BG 7.5). Parā prakṛti. The material, matter, is the aparā*-prakṛti , and spirit soul is parā-prakṛti . So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly explained, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). This is . . . bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā . This is separated. This is also nature, but inferior. Apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā . There is another prakṛti . What is that? Jīva-bhūto , this living entity. So living entity is also prakṛti , but because he has the tendency to enjoy this material world, he is sometimes described as puruṣaḥ . Puruṣaḥ means enjoyer, and prakṛti means enjoyed. So the prakṛti forgets her position, and artificially he wants to become puruṣaḥ. *So this puruṣaḥ, prakṛti 'stho . . . puruṣaḥ prakṛti 'stho bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān , so long he's in this material world, he has to associate with the modes of material nature, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān . And on account of the influence of the prakṛti-jān guṇa , he has to take different types of body. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti 'stho bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). This is the kāraṇa. He's associating with a particular type of the modes of prakṛti-jān guṇān—sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa —and on account of this he gets different types of body. You have to change your body. Dehāntaram. Tathā dehāntaram-prāptir (BG 2.13). But different grades of body is awarded by the laws of nature according to our karma, karmaṇā daiva netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). *So this is . . . our material position is that we are associating with different modes of material nature, and that is infection. If you become infected with some disease, germs, then you have to suffer from that disease. You cannot check it. Similarly, this infection will give us our next body. That we do not know. This is a rascal civilization. They're kept into the darkness, that how things are going on. Their so*-called education, universities . . . so whatever they are doing, they are all being defeated. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam (SB 5.5.5). Ātma-tattvam . Unless one is inquisitive to understand, "What I am?" whatever he is doing, he's being defeated. That's all. Parābhavaḥ. *So the human life is meant for understanding what is the position, "What I am?" This is the intelligence. When Sanātana Gosvāmī approached Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu he was minister, very big man, but he understood that "What I am doing is not to my interest, because I do not know what I am." He submitted to Caitanya Mahāprabhu that grāmya*-vyavahāre kahe paṇḍita satya kari māni (CC Madhya 20.100): that "In my relationship with my neighbors, they call 'paṇḍitjī' .'" He was brāhmaṇa . "So I accept it, 'Yes, I am paṇḍit .'" So what is the wrong? "The wrong is that I am such a paṇḍita that I do not know what I am." (laughs) So ask anybody. Our Dr. Sukla is also . . . (chuckles) So ask any doctor, "What you are?" "Huh? I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa ." This answer you'll get. "I'm American." Nobody will say ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Nobody will say. Nobody will say, because he does not know. So what is the value of this education if one does not know what he is? Therefore śāstra says parābhavaḥ . In ignorance, gross ignorance, anything we are doing, that is parābhava . So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to save the people from this defeating position. We are trying . . . so far I have tried single-handed. And now the . . . a little pressure is felt even by some American politicians. Recently one American politician has remarked that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is just like epidemic. (laughs) And if we do not take any step, then within ten years they'll take our government." So the Communists in India, they are trying to defeat us in so many ways. We have seen the articles in Blitz. *Because they are also afraid. Because the Communist movement means godlessness. And our movement is, "Here is God." There is no blind faith. "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa! You take His name, you take His address—everything." Practical. So that is a great cause of fear for these Communists. So they are against us. So now I shall request the śreṣṭhas , those who are leading persons in India, they should join this movement, take it seriously. It is not a bogus movement. It is a scientific movement. And we have so many books. Now, at the present moment, we have got eighty*-four books. So that is my request, that people should come forward. (whispering in background) They should come forward and take seriously this movement. And we have got our places. In Bombay we have got big place. In Vṛndāvana we have got big place. In Nadia we have got big place. At least elderly gentlemen like you, now you should retire from family life and leave in charge of the grown-up boys. You should take seriously, for India's interest, for everyone's interest, but as we want . . . *We should not keep people in darkness. That is very risky. Very risky. But you may be very proud that, "I am this, I am that. I have to . . ." but you are after all under the control of the laws of nature. That you cannot avoid. You may be falsely proud, but you have to abide by it. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is not so easy. Actually, nature's law, you can eat once chatak . If you eat little more than that, then there is indigestion immediately—you have to go to the doctor. So what is your independence? You cannot violate a little portion of the laws of nature. So many. In every step. As soon as you violate, immediately there is punishment. And still, we are declaring independence. Asatyam. (aside) What is that? Where is Bhagavad*-gītā ? Find out. Jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad ahur anīśvaram. "There is no God." Why you say there is no . . .? You are under control. There is a controller—otherwise, how you are under control? So this foolishness must be stopped in order to make them happy, really happy. Otherwise, if they are kept into ignorance and things go on like this, then the future picture is very gloomy. It has already become gloomy, and future is very, very gloomy. So everyone should come forward, take this movement seriously, and at least, we are Indians, we should take care of Indians. We should not keep people in ignorance. That is not civilization. That is not civilization. Civilization means tamasi mā jyotir gama: come to the light. Don't keep yourself in darkness. That is not civilization. That . . . this civilization is keeping people in darkness. That is very risky. So we should take it very seriously and push this movement very scientifically, soberly, and people will be benefited. Any question? What are the . . . our Prime Minister's view regarding this movement? So far I know, she likes this movement. But she is also not independent. That's true. Nobody is independent. Even she. *Recently, one of my students met the Home Minister. He said: "Yes, this movement should be spread all over the world." They are appreciating. But there are different parties, different circumstances. Our four items—no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no gambling—so I think they are taking some steps on this ground. They are trying to stop cow-killing. *Yes, they have already banned cow*-killing. And they are going to take steps for intoxication. Stopping intoxication and actually, these are the things which can build up the character of the nation and . . . No!no! We are already intoxicated in material existence, and if more intoxication is there, then very . . . Yes. From bad to worse. Yes. So this civilization, this education is simply misleading. Simply misleading. There is no enlightenment of this question, "What I am?" No. No answer. Mahārāja, now we have present here some Life Members of ISKCON. Oh. (break) Life Members should be active Life Members. (laughter) Yes. Aur isme kuch sandeh hai toh puchiye. (And if there is any doubt about this then ask.) If there is any doubt. Mahārāja, the one who brought ISKCON to this house is that boy, son of my . . . who became first Life Member of ISKCON. Oh, very intelligent. Subodh. His name is Subodha and which means the understanding. Very intelligent. Subodha means . . . Good Understanding. Just, just I was talking of abodh . Yes. Abodh . (laughter) Yes. So far you had been mentioning . . . *Yes, abodha*-jāto . *Yes, abodha*-jāto and he is already subodha . He is subodha . He knows his . . . (indistinct) . . . evaṁ budhe paraṁ buddha . You were suggesting to me that . . . Parābhavaḥ. One who is abodha , he is parābhava. Parābhava , defeated. Defeat. And one is subodha , he is victory. So human life is meant for becoming subhodha , not abodha . But they are keeping abodha . This is the difficulty. Everyone is abodha . *Mahārāja, I had a gentleman talking to me who is very intimate with Sanjay Gandhi. And he was telling me that Sanjay Gandhi very forcefully hinted, "Why are you people not working now? Why is the Arya*-samaj silent? Why the other powerful sects and movements are not working? Why have you taken this country into the hands of Muslims?" These were his words. "Why do you want that the country should depend, or the government should depend, on the support of Muslims? Where are you? What are you doing? Why don't you come up?" But our government is supporting them all right, you see. Swami Mahārāja said that they are forces which, when if you want to keep yourself in power, you have to sometimes bend and this . . . That's true. *Apart from government, the first thing is that the . . . sometimes we say "Rāma*-rājya." The Rāma-rājya means . . . there is a verse in Bhāgavatam that when Lord Rāmacandra took charge of the . . . after coming back from the forest, His brother Bhārata surrendered and He took charge of the kingdom. So the residents, the subjects, are described as a varṇāśrama guṇānvitā . Varnāśrama gunan . . .? *Guṇānvitā. So Rāma*-rājya can be established. And it is said there that Lord Rāmacandra was maintaining the kingdom, taking the citizens as His own son. Pitṛvat rāma . It is said there. Pitṛvat . As the father of the family takes charge of the children very nicely, it is the government's duty to become the sensible father of the citizens. And the citizens should be qualified following the institution of varṇāśrama . Then there will be Rāma-rājya . That's the most scientific understanding . . . No. Prabhupāda had rightly said in one of the meetings in Delhi that you people try to follow people who are in power. If Indira Gandhi were to do mālā just like this, I'm sure millions of people in India would be doing mālā like this. So she's doing that. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). "But you will not follow me because I have no political power; therefore you have not . . ." Aise bhi mala japo, kyun apne idhar udhar ki baat sohte ho. Bhagvan ka naam lo wo nahi karega. Lekin Indraji karne lagenge Sanjay gandhi karne lage, toh sab log ke gale me mala daal ne lagenge aur wo karne lagenge. That is why we chant. Why you are thinking of talks of here and there. Take names of lord that you will not do. But if Indraji and Sanjay Gandhi will do then everybody will put flower garlands on their neck and then they will follow. Yatha Raja tatha praja . He is my eldest grandson. Aur ye Sanadar me . . . (indistinct) (And in Sanadar he is . . . (indistinct) . . .) He is subhoda or abodha . (laughter) No, he is Suvrata , Suvrata . Suvrata . . . Kya arth hota hai batao? (What is the meaning of Suvrata , tell me?) Please describe God. (laughter) Do you know what is God? Do you know? Do you know what is God or not? I want to know. I want to know. Do you know the meaning of the God? No. Then how you are asking what is God? If I say something wrong, how you'll understand? If you do not know . . . suppose you go to purchase something, "Give me gold," and if he gives you iron, then what you'll do? If you do not know what is God, gold. You must know first of all what is God. Then you ask. If you do not know, then you'll be cheated. That is going on. That is going on. Mahārāja, but there must be somebody to say that, "This is gold and this is iron." Yes, that means requires a superior education. Superior education. Yes. The father, mother should be responsible . . . So who can be a greater than your Divine Grace? *No, no. The father, father . . . the first thing is that why do you send your sons to the school? It is the duty that he should know. So if the father is a rascal, then how the son can be subodha ? (laughter) Therefore the śāstra says that unless you can train your son to overcome this process of birth, death, old . . . don't become a father. You remain a rascal. Don't beget children. This is contraception. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum (SB 5.5.18). The real problem is mṛtyu . But they have taken it that, "It is ordinary thing." But nobody wants to die. The education is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). But who knows that I do not die after the destruction of the body? Then why I am put into this position that I have to change this body, I have to die? This question does not arise. Therefore they're abodha . The instruction is, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). There is no inquiry that, "If I'm not born, why I am born in this body?" This is question. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . "If I am not subjected to death, then why I am dying?" This question does not arise at all. Therefore everyone is abodha-jāto . Nobody is subodha . Everyone is abodha . The problem is there, but he does not inquire. Excuse me. Mahārāja, don't you think it's high time that some of our Indian philosophy or Indian religion, some classes should be started in schools like they used to have and missionaries used to have scripture classes in schools. There should be in all the schools, I mean, classes on our own religion instead of learning somebody else's. *It is not only . . . when we say that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā . . . (BG 2.13), so as this boy, he was a child, now he has become a boy, then after few years he'll become a young man, and then he'll become middle*-aged man, then he'll become old man—so this is not "Our religion," "Your religion." This is fact, scientific. When Bhagavad-gītā says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā , that is not meant for the so-called Hindus. It is meant for the Muslim, meant for the Christian, everyone. It is science. Religion is a kind of faith. That they describe. But religion is also not a blind faith. Religion means the order of God. That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Just like law means the order of the state. Similarly, religion means the order of God. So if you have no conception of God, if you do not know what is God, what is order, then where is religion? It is all bogus. What my sister was saying was that most of the parents do not understand. Yes. How they should bring up their progeny. Then at least they . . . Children should have . . . (indistinct) At least, the children should be . . . therefore I'm starting that gurukula in Vṛndāvana. So you come, you manage that, take the ideas, make your children . . . whatever mistake is done is done. Now why the mistake should continue? Rectify it. Swamiji isme ek fark ye padta hai nah, agar hum apne aap karte hai toh secularism mai nahi aata hai. (Swamiji, the difference it makes is that if we do that, then it doesn't come under secularism.) Then kick out secularism. Kick out secularism. Wo scientific nahi hai. (It is not scientific.) Science. It is science. Science is nothing. What is God, what is nature, what is soul. You don't give it the name of one particular way. You simply deal it with the basic idea of transforming the human . . . *That I have already explained. When a child becomes a boy, there is no question of secularism. It is science. It is fact. Can you by secularism stop a child growing to become a boy? When I was explaining in South Africa, this thing, one Arya*-samaji friend, he criticized me, that "Why you are bringing Hindu ideas?" So I said: "Is it Hindu ideas? A child grows to become a boy. It is Hindu idea? Why you are so fool you're calling Hindu idea?" A child grows to become a boy. This is science. The law of nature. Yes. *Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). Naturally . . . *But because it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , they take it Hindu idea. This is nonsense. Our approach is so wrong that people take it as . . . Immediately we can pass in a sectarian . . . That is why it is necessary to have this as a part of social studies like you have other subjects in schools. If it is not given any more . . . *But then, as soon as you say " Bhagavad*-gītā ," immediately, "Hindu." What sister wants to know is that how can we add in innumerable, rather, uncountless schools and colleges? The management will be most willing, I mean, the progressive management will be most willing to introduce classes where such laws of nature and such . . . on scientific line, without giving it a Hindu or religious name. That should be taught. A curriculum should be drawn up. Because we control some of the schools. That is my program. I am writing all book just only on this point, therefore they are coming. Otherwise, what is the use? They were Christians and Jews. What is the use of becoming Hindus? Yes. *So anyone wants to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they can understand easily if he joins, Hare Kṛṣṇa, chant. That is all right. If he wants to understand scientifically, there are eighty*-four books. Come on. Which way you want? No. What we want is a very simple curriculum. Elementary type. Simple, this is simple curriculum. So that they gradually, as a child grows into adolescence, when his intelligence also grows, his knowledge also grows. And then we give him still more deeper knowledge of the various things which we have been teaching on elementary basis. And then still deeper. Just like this. Just like this child, this boy, inquired, "What is God?" So he can be instructed that, "God is the supreme controller, just like your father is your controller." He'll accept this. Can you go against your father's will? He says no. He'll say, naturally. Sun rahe tum? (Are you listening?) . . . how he's spreading it. So, he'll understand English? He's angrej? (laughter) He looks like angrej. Maharaj hindi bhi bahut achi samjhta hai. (Mahārāja, he also understands Hindi very well.) Very good. Mahabharata, Ramayana sab padliya isne. (He reads *Mahābhārata* , *Rāmāyaṇa* etc.) Just like at home you are controlled by your parents. Is it not? You like to obey them? (to Suvrata) You like to obey them, or sometimes you don't want to obey them? *Similarly, you take the whole world as a big family. So there must be somebody father and controller. Otherwise, how it is being conducted? That is God, the supreme controller. Just like in your family the father is the controller, similarly, you take it in wide scale, broader scale, there must be somebody father. Therefore the Christians, they take it, "O Father, give us our daily bread." And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is also confirmed, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā . (break) Then he decided, "Yes, I shall fight." Kṛṣṇa inquired from him, "Now I have instructed you. Now, whatever you like you can do. And what is your decision?" Then he clearly said, "Yes, my decision is there. I'll fight." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). "As You advise, I understand that You want this fighting." So Vaiṣṇava means for the sake of Kṛṣṇa he can do anything. Not that he is lazy fellow, showing, "I have become very big Vaiṣṇava. Let me sleep under the name of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava must be very busy, always awaiting the order of the . . . ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). "What is Kṛṣṇa's order? What does He want?" and He is ready. Just like a servant is always ready to receive the order of the master. That is faithful servant. That is real servant and not that at night duty he is sleeping somewhere. No. That is not faithful servant. Faithful servant means always alert. And that is bhakti . Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam bhaktir uttama (CC Madhya 19.167). Simply one has to execute ānukūlyena , how Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. This is bhakti . *So the Hanumān is example. Hanumān was ordered to bring some medicine from some mountain. And he was a monkey, he was animal, he did not know how to pick up it—"Take the whole mountain. Execute the order. And then Rāmacandra and Lakṣmana, They'll find out what is that medicine." So this is Vaiṣṇava. In one's own capacity he should give the best service to the Lord and that is bhakti. Bhakti is not laziness. If somebody thinks that, "The bhaktas are lazy fellows, and they are out of the worldly activity," that is mistake. It is mistake. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam . Kṛṣṇa says personally, yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat tapasyasi yat kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27): "Come on! Do it for Me." That is bhakti . He does not say that "You become a lazy fellow. Give up your occupational duty and sleep and snore, and become a great devotee." No. He never says. He says that "You are attached to this kind of work. All right, do it, but the result you give Me," that is bhakti . "Arjuna, you are a military man. All right, I ask you to fight. You become a fighter and become My devotee." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me (BG 4.3). Just see. What is that? He was not chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa says, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: "You are very dear friend and My devotee." Did he go on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra . . . so not that imitation. Of course, ultimate is always be absorbed in glorifying the Lord. But not in the beginning. In the beginning you must work very hard; you come to the stage of pure devotional platform. Then you can fully engage yourself meditation or chanting. Not in the beginning. In the beginning you should be very expert and active. That is wanted. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . udilo , from the early in the morning, active. "Come on, chant. Come with Me so that others will see. If we make a party chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, so in the beginning they may be disturbed because they have been accustomed to sleep up to nine o'clock, but as they will hear, gradually they'll become purified. They'll receive it." *So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He practically did it, and He asked everyone to do it. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "This is My order." He could remain a big devotee at His home. He was very popular in Navadvīpa, even when He was twenty years old. But still, He took sannyāsa and went door to door, village to village, town to town in India, and He left His order, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma: "All over the world, as many towns and villages are there, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be . . ." (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). Not that "We are big, big gosvāmīs and bābājīs . We do not go out of Vṛndāvana." They say that "We do not go out of . . ." You are imitating them. (chuckles) Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma . And they have become very big Vaiṣṇava: "No, I don't go beyond the limits of Vṛndāvana." What is this nonsense? Did Caitanya Mahāprabhu say like that, that "You do not go beyond the limits . . ."? A devotee, wherever he is, that is Vṛndāvana. That is Vṛndāvana. Tīrtha-kurvanti tīrthāni (SB 1.13.10). A devotee, a pure devotee, can make any hell a tīrtha, a holy place. That is devotee. Tīrthī-kurvanti tīrthāni . That was Bhagīratha. Gaṅgā was hesitating, mother Gaṅgā, that "I shall go to the material world. People will take . . . all sinful men will take bathing, and I'll be overloaded with sin. Then how I shall get out of this sinful, accumulation of sins?" So the Bhagīratha said, "My mother, don't hesitate. When a holy man will take bath in your water, then all the sins he will assimilate." Then she agreed, "Yes. That's all right" So if we become holy man, actually, then immune. There is no difference. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. These are bogus that, "I do not go out of Vṛndāvana." They are making Vṛndāvana limited. Vṛndāvana is not limited. Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, wherever there is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple, that is Vṛndāvana. That is Vṛndāvana. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He, once only, He went to Vṛndāvana. Does it mean He was not in Vṛndāvana? So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that preaching must go on in hell and heaven. We should be very much expert and follow the instruction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the simple instructions. Mukunda mādhava yādava hari bolena bolo re vadana bori . Simply chant the holy names of Lord, mukunda mādhava yādava . This is Caitanya . . . rise early in the morning. You go preach, and work hard, day and night, and that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . this song indicates. That's all. Thank you. Jaya . (offer obeisances) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ye jagah toh bahut hai, idhar ek mandir banayenge. (This place is very big. Here we will make a temple.) Abhi toh urban ceiling act me, wo isme se zameen lena chahte hai. (Now in the urban ceiling act, they want to take a piece of land from this) Toh hum log ko de dijiye, mandir banalenge. Bahut aadmi de raha hai, bahut aadmi. (Then you give it to us and we will construct a temple. Many people are giving. Many people . . .) They are offering their . . . we have received one letter, telegram, from one gentleman. What is his name? Patel? Bhogilal Patel. He's very rich man. So I was sometimes guest in his house. He is very friendly. He comes to see me in Bombay. Old man. He is older than me, one or two years. But he has sent me one telegram, "Swāmījī, take this land, one hundred acres of land in Ahmedabad." In . . .? Ahmedabad. Ahmedabad. Yes. So . . . there are so many. One gentleman has offered land in Mahabaleshwar. Mahabaleshwar. This is very costly place. Very costly place and very nice place. (laughs) Very nice. And wherefrom other offers we have got? Hyderabad we have. Hyderabad he has already . . . that is six hundred acres of land. What is the name of that place? Do you remember? Where? Hyderabad? No. We called it New Naimiṣāraṇya. No, we have named New Naimiṣāraṇya. A very nice place. *You'll get a lot of offers. And as you rightly said that these Vaiṣṇavas, they want to become maṭha*-deśas , they want to become like kings. They don't want to leave their empire and go out, working hard like you and spreading the message of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Yes. That is our mission. That is the right attitude. Even if there is one bhakta , there is Vṛndāvana. *Yes. Bhakta will create Vṛndāvana. Kṛṣṇa says, nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭha (Padma Purāṇa): "I do not stay in Vaikuṇṭha." Nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭhe yogināṁ hṛdayeṣu . "Neither I stay at the heart, core of the heart of the yogīs." Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad*-bhaktāḥ. "When My pure devotee chants the glories of My . . . I immediately stay there. I immediately stay." It's not that He is packed up in some place. He's all-pervading. Vasudeva. Vāsudeva. Therefore His name is Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). He's everywhere. Electricity is everywhere. Only one who knows how to take the electricity . . . so Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching and teaching, they're perfect. You have to follow. Then our life will be successful. Don't manufacture ideas. That is not wanted. Ye log manufacture kiya, ye hindu samdra ka par jaane se hi ekdum . . . (indistinct) hai na? And these people manufactured that this hindu as he crossed the ocean has become fallen. Isn't it? *(indistinct) . . . Has fallen. Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). Bas toh samudra paar kaise nahi hoga? Ye sab chal raha hai. (But then how this ocean will not be crossed. These things are going on.) Foolish theories. Just see. As soon as you cross over the Bay of Bengal or Indian Ocean, you'll become immediately fallen. You become an outcaste. (laughs) That's all. Our Madan Mohan Malaviya, he was invited Round Table conference. He took so much Ganges earth. He was mixing that Ganges earth with water. He's going for political purposes, and showing a . . . what is called? Hobby. This is not that. Now this movement is there, and unless we do it very sincerely and vigorously, it cannot be pushed on. Dekhiye na, Vrindaban me jitna goswami hai. (Now see in Vṛndāvana there are many goswamis .) Ji. (Yes.) Wo sab combine ho karke. bhi, ye humara koi pride ka baat nahi. Jo kaam humne kiya hai, wo nahi kar sakte. (Even if they combine. This is nothing related to my pride. But whatever work i have done they cannot do.) Nahi kar sakte. Maharaaj, kitne honge apne ab ye disciples antardeshiye. (They cannot do. Mahārāja! How many disciples might be there all over the world.) Initiated hoga toh koi 10,000. Dekhiye is tarah se hai sab. (If initiated then 10,000. See this is like this . . .) Initiated dus hazaar. (Initiated 10,000.) Aur ye sab followers log hai. Jo kitaab par rahe hai, ye jo daily 5 lakhs 6 lakhs jo kitaab beek raha hai, koi padta hai nahi koi . . . (indistinct) . . . Padta hai hum ko malum hai. (And like this there are many followers. Some are reading books daily five lakhs , six lakhs Books are selling somebody studies or comes and reads on street. I know that they study.) Life member kitne hai humare? (There are how many Life Members.) Life members toh hum idhar hi kiya tha. (Life Member cultivation I have done here.) Udhar nahi kiye? (There you haven't done.) No . . . Life Member. We have Life Member? In London. London's about fifteen hundred. Where? In London, Amsterdam and Montreal. We're making Life Members everywhere now. Africa. How many Life Members in India? Must have at least ten thousand. No. Target must be 10,000. No. Indian, everyone should become a Life Member. Certainly. Everybody like us are there with devotees. And it is India's duty that everyone should take up such a cultural movement. That is India's glory. I have given one statement, I do not know whether it is published. The, some of the places, they are against me. So where is that copy? Have you got that copy? I don't know which . . . Hmm. I've given one statement . . . Mahārāja, have you sent that reply to that questionnaire which was sent to you from Bhavan's Journal? Bhavan's Journal sent you a questionnaire. *Yes. I have sent that answer. Eighty-four pages. For twenty*-one questions I have answered eighty-four pages. I think in Delhi you must call a press conference. Aadmi itna dull hogaya, ye sab baat samajhta hi nahi. Samajhta hai, still leta nahi. (People have become so dull that they do not understand these talks. They understand still . . .) Samajhta hai, lekin political jab tak ke yo usko politically ve kar leta, usko samjhne ki koshis nahi karta. (They understand but until and unless the politician accept, they don't want to understand.) (break) . . . by seeing him, if we remember Kṛṣṇa, he is Vaiṣṇava. He never said that you must be born in a brāhmaṇa family or . . . no. If by seeing him only one remembers Kṛṣṇa, then that person is Vaiṣṇava. So couldn't that point be expressed to the government, somehow? Well, emergency government. (laughs) They can do anything immediately. Sir, these nationalities, I mean . . . (break) (end) Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh *(reporters from the English*-language Times of India, the Press Trust of India, UNI, the Punjabi Akali Patarika and Ajit, and the Hindi and Urdu Hind Samachar) No, I've seen this. It is in the library. No, but still I . . . (indistinct) Five hundred libraries in India have ordered these books in the last four months. Must have. These are very good quality book, it is. Very good quality. Give this one book from the . . . Yes, I brought it back. (break) India's culture and knowledge are richer than any other culture. And that is being accepted. Yes. Real knowledge, real culture is in India. Unfortunately, we did not try in that way. We simply went to the foreign countries to beg, "Give us wheat, give us this, give us this, give us that." But if we give our culture, they will accept that India is still richer than any other. (aside) You can bring some of the press items, professor, learned scholars' opinions. Yes. Aiye . (pause) *Where is Caitya*-guru? He's out. (long pause) Opinions of the big scholars. I would request you to wait for five minutes, because some other journalists are coming. They are . . . Here is some material written about . . . Oh, really? The electricity is off at the moment, so we . . . (indistinct) *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purely a spiritual movement. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult to understand the activities of this movement. There are two things: material and spiritual. That is the beginning of instruction of the Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa begins with this statement: that this body is not the person; the soul is the person. Asmin dehe . Within this body there is the soul. And He has explained in different ways that this body is antavanta ime dehā ( BG 2.18). This body is perishable, but the soul is not perishable. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), that even after the destruction of the body the soul is not destroyed. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit . The soul never takes birth, never dies. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). There are so many things explained, what is the soul. So without the soul, this body is useless. That everyone can understand. Therefore the importance should be given to the soul, not to the body. Kṛṣṇa says that anyone who is paṇḍita , in knowledge, he does not give any importance to the body, either living or dead. *So the India's particular culture is how to elevate the soul to the highest platform of perfection. That is India's culture. The whole Vedic literature is meant for that, and Bhagavad*-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literature. And the purpose is that soul is now entrapped within this material world, and the human life is the opportunity for getting oneself out of this entrapment of material existence. So if we do not take care of this important business of human life—as it is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra , athāto brahma jijñāsā . . . this life is meant for understanding about the Brahman, or the spirit soul. And there are two kinds of spirit soul. One is called the Supersoul, and the other is called the individual soul. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā : kṣetra-kṣetrajñā , this chapter. Kṣetra means this body, and kṣetrajñā means one who knows about the body. You know about your body, not fully, but at least partially. Every one of us, we know, "This is my body. I am . . . I got this body from such father and mother. I belong . . . this body belongs to such and such country," and so on. This is one knowledge. *So another soul is there. That is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. He says that kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). That is Supersoul. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is everywhere within this universe, even within the atom. That is Supersoul. That Supersoul is . . . the distinction between soul and the Supersoul is this, that we are individual soul. I know about the pains and pleasure of my body, you know the pains and pleasure of your body. But I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body, you do not know the pains or pleasure of my body. The Supersoul, He knows the pains and pleasure of all bodies. That is the distinction. Ātmā , Paramātmā . So these things can be understood in the human form of life. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand. If we want to educate the cats and dogs that "My dear dog, you are not this body. You are different from this body. You are spirit soul, Brahman," he has no capacity to understand. And a human being, however fallen he may be, if he is educated, he can understand about the position of spirit soul and how to become free from this material bondage. *So in India we have got immense Vedic literature for understanding this business of the soul. And in human form of body, if we do not take care of the spiritual portion of our life, then we are making suicide. That is the proposal of all great personalities born in India, ācāryas like . . . recent . . . Formerly, there were big, big ācāryas like Vyāsadeva and others, Devala. Many, many ācāryas . And the recent, within, say, one thousand five hundred years, there are . . . there were many ācāryas like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, and within five hundred years Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They have also given us many literatures about this spiritual knowledge. But at the present moment this spiritual knowledge is neglected. So it is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message to the whole world that every one of you, you become guru , a spiritual master. So how everyone can become a spiritual master? To become a spiritual master is not easy job. One must be very learned scholar and must have full realization of the self and everything. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us a little formula, that if you strictly follow the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā , and if you preach the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā , then you become guru . The exact words used in Bengali, it is said, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). To become guru is very difficult job, but if you simply carry the message of Bhagavad-gītā and try to convince anyone you meet, then you become a guru . *So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for this purpose. We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, without any man interpretation. If we interpret Bhagavad-gītā in our own way, that is not very good. If you have got a different opinion, you can preach your philosophy. Everyone is free. But one should not take Bhagavad-gītā and through Bhagavad-gītā one will try to preach his own philosophy. That is very bad. You should not do that. Then the authority of Bhagavad-gītā is lost. If everyone can interpret in his own way, then where is the authority of the Bhagavad-gītā ? Just like in the Vedas . . . we take Vedas as the authority. But if you interpret in your own way and squeeze out some meaning in your own way, then where is authority of the Vedas ? So our special stress on this point is that don't squeeze out some meaning of Bhagavad-gītā for your own convenience. Present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people will be benefited. And that is being practically seen. We are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You have seen our book? When can we put questions? After. *Yes, let me finish, that . . . we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and it is being accepted all over the world. People are very much, those who are scholars, they say that even Radhakrishnan and Aurobindo, they presented Bhagavad-gītā , making some compromise with the Western ideas. But here is presentation of Bhagavad-gītā in India's original, traditional way. So they welcome it. And this is our, I mean to say, object also, that we cannot allow Bhagavad-gītā to be understood by anyone's imagination. No. That is not possible. And that is not allowed in the Bhagavad-gītā by the author. Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter that as soon as the paramparā system of understanding is lost, then the whole thing is lost. In the Fourth Chapter it is said. (aside) Find out Fourth Chapter. *Is there another Bhagavad*-gītā ? Why don't you bring another copy? Pradyumna might have one. Here is one. *Fourth Chapter, you find, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Kṛṣṇa says that this Bhagavad-gītā knowledge was first of all given to . . . Fourth Chapter. Yes. *"Now, this paramparā system being lost, I am again reviving the Bhagavad*-gītā again to you, Arjuna." That means the author says if one does not understand Bhagavad-gītā through the paramparā system, then the whole thing is lost. So you cannot interpret Bhagavad-gītā in your own way. Then the authority and the purport of Bhagavad-gītā is lost. So we are trying to revive this paramparā system, and fortunately we have sold millions copies of this edition of Bhagavad-gītā . We are printing five hundred thousand, three hundred thousand, like that, and all over the world. There are many Bhagavad-gītās . There are about six hundred and forty different editions. But still our, this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, it is being accepted very widely, and therefore we are very much hopeful. *And as practical example you can see so many European, American, they have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness very seriously. And before this movement, many svāmīs , yogīs and scholars went to the foreign countries, but not a single person became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. Not a single person. But now, because Bhagavad*-gītā is being presented as it is, so many thousands, they are becoming devotees of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So this movement has practical effect, and both in the scholarly and people in general circle. And as advised by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, India should take this movement very seriously and send many trained teachers so that India's glories will be enhanced. People will take it very seriously. You can ask your questions now. Sir, who initiated you into this movement? My Guru Mahārāja. (aside) You show my Guru Mahārāja's picture here. Here is a picture. Here, here. Haṁsadūta has it right here. He asked me to do this. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda. Has he a seat here in India? Yes. Founder of the Gauḍīya Math. *He is the founder of Gauḍīya Math. He advised me to take up this movement when I was twenty*-five years old, young man. But at that time I thought that "I am a married man, let me wait." So waiting, waiting. When I retired at the . . . I was born in 1896. So I retired in 1954. That means I retired at the age of fifty-eight years? At fifty-eight years. Then I remained as a vānaprastha in Vṛndāvana up to seventieth year of my age. Then I thought that "Guru Mahārāja asked me to do this at the age of . . . when I was twenty-five years old. I could not do it. So let me try." So by his grace and Kṛṣṇa's grace, it became little successful. That's all. In 1965 I went to New York without any help. But gradually, in 1966, I registered this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in New York. And then gradually, it spread whole America, Europe, Australia, Canada. Like that. What is the reason of the success of your mission in the foreign countries? "What is the reason of your success in foreign countries?" Yes. That is very intelligent question. We are after material civilization, and they are fed up with material civilization. That is the position. We are now trying to imitate them, a skyscraper building, but they are disgusted with such skyscraper building. These boys, they are coming from very respectable family, rich family, and especially in America there is no question of poor man. There is no question of poor man. But still, they do not like the materialistic way of life of their father and grandfathers. But does that not mean because they are rich, they can afford religion? No, no. That is the . . . because you are . . . we have already explained. You are a spiritual being. You cannot be satisfied with material atmosphere in any stage. Just like a fish is an animal of the water. If you bring the fish from water and keep on the land very comfortably, it cannot be comfortable. It is impossible. Similarly, we are all spiritual being. Any amount of material comforts will never satisfy us, unless we come to the spiritual platform. That is the demand. So now they have satisfied their material demands, but the urge is there, "I want something more, to be happy." And that is spiritual. What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples, or do your other disciples also do that? Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) . . . knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing. So our this movement is successful . . . on account of this movement . . . (faulty recording) (break) . . . because learned scholars and those who are inquisitive, advanced, they are seeing, "Yes, here is . . ." (break) . . . success abroad? Who has abroad success? Name them. (break) So it is not . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody knows of this. Maharishi . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Well, Maharishi does not say . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) He says that this is material. If you perform this meditation, Transcendental Meditation, you will be materially benefited. That is not spiritual meditation. (indistinct) . . . you have said that India should take this movement seriously. Yes. How do you want India to take this movement? *Seriously means that a spiritual movement is India's spiritual movement. So if some of our leading men take seriously, then whatever I am doing single*-handed . . . I don't get any support, either from the Indian public or from the government. But if they take it seriously, then we can present in more organized way, and it will be more successful. So far it is done single-handed. Do you think there is a necessity to open a ministry of religion? I think so. Because there is a cultural department in the central government, (chuckles) but they do not know what is culture. Just see. What is the difference between God consciousness and Kṛṣṇa consciousness? There is no difference. The same thing. Kṛṣṇa is God. (break) What is, sir, the number of your disciples round the world? Dedicated life—not less than ten thousand. And admirers, there are many millions. Recently one American politician has remarked in Houston that "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is spreading like epidemic. So unless we take some steps, it may take our government." (laughter) Who was the man who said it? Just say. A government official in Houston. No, no, what is his name? You can give. His name was not given. Oh. Simply it is said a government official. He said on the floor of the House or outside? Said it on the TV. Houston. Houston, Texas. (everyone talking at once) Are you getting any opposition from the Church? No. That is very favorable. No opposition. No. Otherwise, it was impossible. At least in America they have never prevented me. But in Europe, especially in England and Germany, they, the Christian group, they are little angry with me. But so far America, they are very liberal. They never put any impediments in my movement. Rather, government appreciates. The appreciated one point, that the American younger generation, they have become addicted to this LSD, intoxication, and they have spent millions of dollars to stop this, but they could not. But they are surprised that as soon as this LSD man becomes my disciple, he gives up immediately. Sir, apart from Catholicity of the American Church, what can be the other reasons of their indifference towards your positive ideas? Not indifference. They are . . . you see, there is a remark of a politician. There is no indifference. They are appreciating that it is spreading like epidemic. There is no question of indifference. But the leaders, they appreciate. Some of the fathers of my disciples, they come to offer their thanks, "Swāmījī, it is a great fortune for us that you have come to our country." They say like that. They appreciate that their sons were going to be hippies. Now they are devotees, God conscious. So any sane man will never object to this. The priests also, they say that "These boys are our boys," in Boston, one priest said, "and they never cared to come to the church or inquire about God. And now these boys are mad after God." Not only that, practically, in many places we have purchased churches and converted into temples. So we see these churches were sold because nobody was coming. But since this movement is there, the same church is there and the same persons are there—you will find always it is crowded. This is practical. I have not imported men from India to fill up the temples. Their men and their church, but the philosophy is different, it is filled up. Can you give us the number how many temples are there in foreign countries? I have established 102 temples. Small and big. Out of them, very big temples are in Los Angeles, in London, in Hawaii, Honolulu, in Detroit . . . and . . . New York, Chicago. New York, Chicago. Toronto. *Toronto, Montreal, Paris, so many. Very, very big temples. The cost is sometimes fifty lakhs , fifty*-five lakhs each temple. New York is more than a million dollars, New York temple. Do you have any proposal to spread this movement in Communist countries? Yes, we have already gone. I have been in Moscow. This, my secretary, he has brought some order from them. They are also appreciating. Now two priests of your temple in America have been arrested on certain charges as we read from the newspaper . . . *Well, the charges will be there. Gandhi was also charged and was arrested. And that you cannot stop. That will go on in any movement. That is not any fault. Because the counter*-charges are already there, everywhere. What is the American charges? I do not know. What is that? That you have took money from . . . extortion of money from the devotees. Asking their parents to pay, or some such thing. Parents to pay. This is a farce. As a donation or contribution. So we can ask donation from anyone. What is the fault there? Is it extortion? What is that extortion? Suppose if I ask for donation . . . No, they equate that this donation was extortion. No, no, extortion, what do you mean by extortion? If I ask you donation and if you pay, does it mean it is extortion? They say those two people were kept in custody before . . . *That is false accusation. There was no such charge. Besides that, we do not have many contribution. We have got contribution, big lump sum money . . . one of my disciples is the great*-grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. So he has given a big contribution, and he's always prepared to spend for me. He has got enough money. Another boy, George Harrison, Beatle, he has given us the London temple. It is worth about fifty-five, sixty lakhs worth. So we don't get any money, but they have given us many buildings. And our main source of income is the selling of these books. We are selling books daily all over the world, five to six lakhs rupees. Five to six lakhs . . . Rupees. Per day. Per day! And by this collection, from this collection, we are bringing money in India. We are bringing money in India not less than ten lakhs of rupees per month. Our buildings and temples are going on in Bombay, in Vṛndāvana, in Navadvīpa. So we have got at least ten lakhs of rupees' expenditure for these temples, and that I am bringing from foreign countries. So if by laboring hard at night in this Dictaphone I write books, and I sell them in the foreign countries and I bring the money here for spending in India, do you think it is faulty? One American professor who is a teacher of Hinduism there, in some of the universities you mentioned, she said, I asked him a question about ISKCON, and she said, "Well this thing is creating a bad impression in the sense that people are accosted everywhere—in the streets, on the airport, at the bus stand. They accost you and force you to buy their literature, to buy their books. And this is creating a revulsion." So why you are forced? Suppose as preaching work . . . in our childhood we saw the Christian preachers were also standing on the road. So if we stand on the road and preach and sell our books, what is the fault? I put that. He said you are doing what the Christian . . . (break) No. What is the problem? (break) No. The government allowed them, the Christian people. The government is allowing us also. Then where is the fault? The fault is . . . That is your imagination, fault. It's not a legal fault. Well, that's all right. We are preacher, we must preach in every way. We shall go everyone, that "Here is Kṛṣṇa consciousness literature. Kindly take it." That is our business. The government does not object to this. There are many cases in the court, and the court allowed, "Yes. They should sell." We have got some . . . (break) (faulty recording—not possible to properly hear; Prabhupada is arguing that as salesmen, if we canvass and people buy, there is nothing wrong in that) *(indistinct) . . . we distribute every week 22,000 books like this, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , 16,000 medium books . . . (indistinct) . . . magazines. So how is it possible we are forcing? About 150,000 people every week to take our books. *Not only that. Where is that letter? Standard Literature? Here, there is one English company, Standard Literature Company. They are proposing that "We shall purchase every quarterly 200 sets of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Let us settle terms." Do you mean to say it is extortion? And the professors are giving their opinion by extortion? It is appreciation. Unfortunately, you don't appreciate. But what is the reason your . . . Because there is substance. There is spiritual substance. They are appreciating. What is your analysis for why it is not being . . . (inaudible recording) *Because you have rejected. You have rejected. Your policy is now American, technology. You have given up spiritual (inaudible recording). Therefore in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, find out this verse, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām samādhau na vidhīyate (BG 2.44). Vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ . Those who are . . . whose attention is drawn to the material comforts, they cannot take an interest in spiritual life. (inaudible recording) Our attention is diverted how to improve materially. Therefore we are disinterested. But they have seen much about material advancement, they are not happy. Material advancement means generally, as we understand from the literature, viśayinaṁ saṅdarśanam atha yoṣitaṁ ca (CC Madhya 11.8). Material comfort means woman and money. So they have tasted all this woman and money enough. Woman, money are available very easily. But they are not interested. Sir, do you think it is necessary for India to eschew religion? *It is not religion. I have already explained. Did you not mark that this is spiritual knowledge? You are combination of spirit and matter. The spirit I have already explained. And if you don't take care of the spirit portion, then you are making suicide. You are losing the opportunity of your human life. It is essential. One should be cognizant of the spiritual necessity of life. Otherwise, you are losing the opportunity of this human form of life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Then you remain as cats and dogs, and there is risk, very risky life. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). You do not know what kind of body you are going to get next life. It is essential. You must be prepared . . . (break) . . . body, but you do not know what kind of body you are going to accept. That knowledge is lacking. One question. You have priced these books very high comparatively for the poorer countries. Do you have any plans to reduce . . . "You have priced these books very high for poor countries." We're printing locally now. The same books, but local printing so that they can be afforded by the public. Yes. When we print locally it will be sold at half price. *This Bhagavad*-gītā , for example, it's going to be sold to the masses at fifteen rupees in about three weeks. We are printing the Indian edition with 48 color plates. The government of India is giving us concessional paper for printing. They are very pleased with our . . . we're getting lot of concessional paper, so we are expanding the printing. What is the price of this edition? *This is, in America, it's seven dollars, seven dollars ninety*-five cents. And what the Home Member has said? The Home Minister? The Home Minister recently said that he wants this movement to be spread all over the world. One of the prominent people said he wants this movement to be spread all over the world. Now, sir, from your lips, how to attain this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and to maintain it? Once you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will maintain. You won't have to . . . No, from your own, direct from your lips, how to . . . *No, this direction is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that . . . (aside) Find out this verse, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is very simple thing. Find out this verse. (Indian guest is entering or leaving and Prabhupāda requests in Hindi for him to take prasādam ) "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me. Offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." Which chapter? It's Chapter Nine, verse 34. *So what is the difficulty? If you think of Kṛṣṇa, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto , is there any difficulty? There is no difficulty. I think his problem is, it is my problem as well. You see, the spiritual consciousness does not stay at the same level. Sometimes you are well absorbed. At other times you do all the arja , the arja , the bhakti . It's not a constant factor. No, you have to keep it constantly. How to do it? That is the problem. That we have see. If you come to our center, live with us, you'll see how we are doing it. You are welcome. You can live with us any time or any period of time. You'll see how we are doing that. Thank you, but you know I have been living here quite often, but . . . We have our centers. We have got big centers in Bombay, in Navadvīpa, in Vṛndāvana. We have got very comfortable guesthouse. So you can come and live with us and see practically. If you all don't mind, just for five minutes, we would like to read the selected extracts from some leading scholars about this movement. We're not reading the views of Western scholars. These books are being used in five thousand universities, including Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, but some of the leading Indian scholars, so you also get an understanding of the Indian appreciation of Prabhupāda's activities. This, for example, is a letter from Mr. Ghosh, District and Summon Judge in West Bengal: "I'm highly impressed at the sincerity and devotion of the disciples of the International Society of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. A visit to the Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir, West Bengal, sublimes the mind from all harsh talk and disturbing influences." Then . . . (aside) Stop now. Don't divert attention. This is a letter from Śrī Ambarish Sarkar, General Secretary of the Nadia District Congress Committee. "I have had an opportunity to visit the Śrī Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir on the 12th August, 1975. It is absolutely a religious institution. Jayapātāka Swami has devoted all of his efforts and endeavors to organize and propound the sacred name of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. I'm impressed by his charming manner and strength. Although it is a religious institution, this organization has performed many social services. Many poor and destitute families have had an opportunity to work, and at the same time they have become worshipers of Lord Śrī Caitanya. To engage these workers, so many industrial centers have already been started, such as handloom cloth, printing, etc. I wish this organization, with its help of the local people, all success." Now . . . *We're not only chanting, we are giving them work. We are trying to become self*-sufficient, the same idea of Gandhi's village organization, so they may not come out from the village. They'll be satisfied, village economics. That we are doing. Actually, Prabhupāda is doing the same thing in America now. Prabhupāda's . . . America we have nine . . . eleven centers like that. Farms. This is a review from a local, from O. P. Baradraj, Principal of Government College for Men, Chandigarh. One minute. Perhaps you are, any representative of Novara Times here? Yes, he is here. Yes. So you published, I think two years before, about our New Vrindavan. And you stated that it is a wonderful land, that . . . what is that? Dudh aur dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (River of milk and curd is flowing.) Adhyatmika ki Yamuna aur doodh dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (The Yamuna of spirituality and the river of milk and curd is flowing.) It is your remark. You have seen. Your representative went there and saw it. In October '74. Yes. Along with photographs. In big, whole page article with the . . . (indistinct) . . . published a series of four . . . three articles on last year's Janmāṣṭamī. This review from Mr. Baradraj . . . We are giving cow protection in the country where they are eaten by the people. Their staple food, beef, and they are accepting this movement, giving cow protection. Which are those areas? West Virginia, Philadelphia, New Orleans and . . . where? Miami, Canada, Vancouver. Like that. So if you don't mind, what is bad about eating . . . people who are eating beef? What is bad about it? Bad means you become bad. That's all. You can see these things are . . . But we can eat goat's meat, and other animal's meat. *Yes. And the thing is that cow is especially recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā , kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44), that you must produce enough food grains by agriculture and give protection to the cows. That means if you have got enough food grains to eat and if you have got enough milk to get fatty substance, then your whole economic question is solved. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). If you get sufficient food, there is no question of agitation. Everyone is satisfied, animal and man. So you must produce. That is recommendation in the Bhagavad-gītā . Sir, in the modern technological . . . Modern, we are not talking of modern or . . . we're talking . . . In this age, how has the, you know, instrument of production because of this tractor, mechanization of agriculture? *So that is your interpretation. But we are trying to present Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. That is our mission, that you produce food grains sufficiently and give protection to the cows so that food grains and milk will give you all benefits of economic question. You'll be satisfied. That's all. Not only that, I have practically seen that by God's arrangement there are so much land on this planet that you can produce ten times foodstuff of the whole population. But they are not doing that. They are utilizing land . . . just like in Africa I have seen, enough land is there, but what they are doing? They are keeping some cows and bulls, and when they are grown up . . . they are not given anything to eat; there is enough grass. And as soon as they are fatty, they are taken to the slaughterhouse—not for their own eating, but exporting. This business is going on. Similar business is going on in Australia and New Zealand. Unnecessarily they are killing these cows, and this shortage of foodstuff and shortage of milk, this is not good arrangement. *The recommended process in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). If you have sufficient foodstuff, then everyone is satisfied. And it is the duty of the vaiśya class, kṛṣi go-rakṣya vāṇijyam, go-rakṣya vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). The, according to Bhagavad-gītā , this is the business of the vaiśyas . The brāhmaṇas , they should be very much highly educated, enlightened in spiritual knowledge. The kṣatriyas , they should govern, give protection. The vaiśyas , they should produce enough food. And those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya , śūdras , they can help. That's all. This is their . . . then everyone will be satisfied. The society will go on. Just like in your body you require brain, the head—you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. Similarly, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . That is essential. If you have simply brain and no leg, then it is also useless. There must be brain and leg also. There must be brāhmaṇa, there must be śūdra, there must be . . . then the social arrangement is perfect. Would that mean that you support the ancient caste system? Huh? It is not caste system; it is division of labor. It is not caste system. A class of men must be intelligent; a class of men must be strong to give protection; and a class of men must be to produce food; *and a class of men, general worker. It is not caste system. Bhagavad*-gītā never says caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13): according to quality and work. You have made it caste system. You have no qualification of a brāhmaṇa , you are calling "I am brāhmaṇa ." That is caste system. But if you have got the quality of a brāhmaṇa and you work as a brāhmaṇa , that is necessary. That is necessary. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ . *Could we just take two minutes of your time? This is a review from Śrī Baradraj, Principal of Government College for Men, Chandigarh. He says, " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is one of the great classics of India. This commentary is a significant contribution to the religious literature of this country. Many of the conflicting views on certain ślokas have been beautifully resolved by Swāmījī. I congratulate the members of the Society for bringing out this wonderful work in such a lucid form. I shall be looking forward to the other publications." This is a review from Dr. Varshneya, senior professor and Head of Hindi Department, Dean and Curator of Arts, honorary librarian, Allahabad University, Allahabad. "Śrī A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda has really done a great service to Indian philosophy, religion and culture by translating Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam into English, with learned commentaries, and has thus provided source material to the Western world. Other philosophical and religious works published by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust also present a golden opportunity to the Western philosophers and scholars to drink deep at the celestial fountain of ancient Indian philosophy and spiritual wisdom." I'm just reading a few very quick ones. *There's one from a leading professor in Chandigarh, who you must be knowing, Dr. Jagadish Sharma, M.A., . . . (indistinct) . . . Delhi? He's from Punjab University. Author of nineteen books including Encyclopedia of India. So here is what Dr. Sharma says: "India's contribution towards the revivalism of the Hindu civilization culture by way of printing the Harvard Oriental Series was tremendous. But the work done by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is unsurpassable." He says it's even greater. "His Holiness has done a great service to the Indian culture by re*-interpreting the concepts enshrined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . This edition of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will go a long way to help the scientists in rediscovering phenomena of the universe which is yet to be discovered. The printing and the get-up of this book is excellent. The thoughts of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam radiate to anyone who sees it. This book helps to brighten the gloomy and dark clouds which are covered by the nuclear fear and apprehension of society." Where is that book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness? Some of my students, they are Ph.D's in science. They have written this book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness . And we are going to publish another book, Life Comes From Lif e. Sir, why don't you present us one set of . . . (laughter) Some part . . . Because this is our means of income. Kindly give us some contribution, you take as many . . . (laughter) I could only purchase one book. I cannot purchase four dozen books. Now you are here, I think you should present us one set so that we may read this. We have a library here where everyone can come and read. Besides, five or six other . . . fifteen libraries in Chandigarh have all our books. You can visit either of those fifteen or the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (guests talk at once) Thank you very much. So would any of you like to have any pictures of Gurujī? Or . . . (break) (end) Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh *(reporters from the English*-language Times of India, the Press Trust of India, UNI, the Punjabi Akali Patarika and Ajit, and the Hindi and Urdu Hind Samachar) No, I've seen this. It is in the library. No, but still I . . . (indistinct) Five hundred libraries in India have ordered these books in the last four months. Must have. These are very good quality book, it is. Very good quality. Give this one book from the . . . Yes, I brought it back. (break) India's culture and knowledge are richer than any other culture. And that is being accepted. Yes. Real knowledge, real culture is in India. Unfortunately, we did not try in that way. We simply went to the foreign countries to beg, "Give us wheat, give us this, give us this, give us that." But if we give our culture, they will accept that India is still richer than any other. (aside) You can bring some of the press items, professor, learned scholars' opinions. Yes. Aiye . (pause) *Where is Caitya*-guru? He's out. (long pause) Opinions of the big scholars. I would request you to wait for five minutes, because some other journalists are coming. They are . . . Here is some material written about . . . Oh, really? The electricity is off at the moment, so we . . . (indistinct) *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purely a spiritual movement. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult to understand the activities of this movement. There are two things: material and spiritual. That is the beginning of instruction of the Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa begins with this statement: that this body is not the person; the soul is the person. Asmin dehe . Within this body there is the soul. And He has explained in different ways that this body is antavanta ime dehā ( BG 2.18). This body is perishable, but the soul is not perishable. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), that even after the destruction of the body the soul is not destroyed. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit . The soul never takes birth, never dies. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). There are so many things explained, what is the soul. So without the soul, this body is useless. That everyone can understand. Therefore the importance should be given to the soul, not to the body. Kṛṣṇa says that anyone who is paṇḍita , in knowledge, he does not give any importance to the body, either living or dead. *So the India's particular culture is how to elevate the soul to the highest platform of perfection. That is India's culture. The whole Vedic literature is meant for that, and Bhagavad*-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literature. And the purpose is that soul is now entrapped within this material world, and the human life is the opportunity for getting oneself out of this entrapment of material existence. So if we do not take care of this important business of human life—as it is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra , athāto brahma jijñāsā . . . this life is meant for understanding about the Brahman, or the spirit soul. And there are two kinds of spirit soul. One is called the Supersoul, and the other is called the individual soul. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā : kṣetra-kṣetrajñā , this chapter. Kṣetra means this body, and kṣetrajñā means one who knows about the body. You know about your body, not fully, but at least partially. Every one of us, we know, "This is my body. I am . . . I got this body from such father and mother. I belong . . . this body belongs to such and such country," and so on. This is one knowledge. *So another soul is there. That is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. He says that kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). That is Supersoul. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is everywhere within this universe, even within the atom. That is Supersoul. That Supersoul is . . . the distinction between soul and the Supersoul is this, that we are individual soul. I know about the pains and pleasure of my body, you know the pains and pleasure of your body. But I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body, you do not know the pains or pleasure of my body. The Supersoul, He knows the pains and pleasure of all bodies. That is the distinction. Ātmā , Paramātmā . So these things can be understood in the human form of life. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand. If we want to educate the cats and dogs that "My dear dog, you are not this body. You are different from this body. You are spirit soul, Brahman," he has no capacity to understand. And a human being, however fallen he may be, if he is educated, he can understand about the position of spirit soul and how to become free from this material bondage. *So in India we have got immense Vedic literature for understanding this business of the soul. And in human form of body, if we do not take care of the spiritual portion of our life, then we are making suicide. That is the proposal of all great personalities born in India, ācāryas like . . . recent . . . Formerly, there were big, big ācāryas like Vyāsadeva and others, Devala. Many, many ācāryas . And the recent, within, say, one thousand five hundred years, there are . . . there were many ācāryas like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, and within five hundred years Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They have also given us many literatures about this spiritual knowledge. But at the present moment this spiritual knowledge is neglected. So it is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message to the whole world that every one of you, you become guru , a spiritual master. So how everyone can become a spiritual master? To become a spiritual master is not easy job. One must be very learned scholar and must have full realization of the self and everything. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us a little formula, that if you strictly follow the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā , and if you preach the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā , then you become guru . The exact words used in Bengali, it is said, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). To become guru is very difficult job, but if you simply carry the message of Bhagavad-gītā and try to convince anyone you meet, then you become a guru . *So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for this purpose. We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, without any man interpretation. If we interpret Bhagavad-gītā in our own way, that is not very good. If you have got a different opinion, you can preach your philosophy. Everyone is free. But one should not take Bhagavad-gītā and through Bhagavad-gītā one will try to preach his own philosophy. That is very bad. You should not do that. Then the authority of Bhagavad-gītā is lost. If everyone can interpret in his own way, then where is the authority of the Bhagavad-gītā ? Just like in the Vedas . . . we take Vedas as the authority. But if you interpret in your own way and squeeze out some meaning in your own way, then where is authority of the Vedas ? So our special stress on this point is that don't squeeze out some meaning of Bhagavad-gītā for your own convenience. Present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people will be benefited. And that is being practically seen. We are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You have seen our book? When can we put questions? After. *Yes, let me finish, that . . . we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and it is being accepted all over the world. People are very much, those who are scholars, they say that even Radhakrishnan and Aurobindo, they presented Bhagavad-gītā , making some compromise with the Western ideas. But here is presentation of Bhagavad-gītā in India's original, traditional way. So they welcome it. And this is our, I mean to say, object also, that we cannot allow Bhagavad-gītā to be understood by anyone's imagination. No. That is not possible. And that is not allowed in the Bhagavad-gītā by the author. Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter that as soon as the paramparā system of understanding is lost, then the whole thing is lost. In the Fourth Chapter it is said. (aside) Find out Fourth Chapter. *Is there another Bhagavad*-gītā ? Why don't you bring another copy? Pradyumna might have one. Here is one. *Fourth Chapter, you find, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Kṛṣṇa says that this Bhagavad-gītā knowledge was first of all given to . . . Fourth Chapter. Yes. *"Now, this paramparā system being lost, I am again reviving the Bhagavad*-gītā again to you, Arjuna." That means the author says if one does not understand Bhagavad-gītā through the paramparā system, then the whole thing is lost. So you cannot interpret Bhagavad-gītā in your own way. Then the authority and the purport of Bhagavad-gītā is lost. So we are trying to revive this paramparā system, and fortunately we have sold millions copies of this edition of Bhagavad-gītā . We are printing five hundred thousand, three hundred thousand, like that, and all over the world. There are many Bhagavad-gītās . There are about six hundred and forty different editions. But still our, this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, it is being accepted very widely, and therefore we are very much hopeful. *And as practical example you can see so many European, American, they have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness very seriously. And before this movement, many svāmīs , yogīs and scholars went to the foreign countries, but not a single person became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. Not a single person. But now, because Bhagavad*-gītā is being presented as it is, so many thousands, they are becoming devotees of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So this movement has practical effect, and both in the scholarly and people in general circle. And as advised by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, India should take this movement very seriously and send many trained teachers so that India's glories will be enhanced. People will take it very seriously. You can ask your questions now. Sir, who initiated you into this movement? My Guru Mahārāja. (aside) You show my Guru Mahārāja's picture here. Here is a picture. Here, here. Haṁsadūta has it right here. He asked me to do this. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda. Has he a seat here in India? Yes. Founder of the Gauḍīya Math. *He is the founder of Gauḍīya Math. He advised me to take up this movement when I was twenty*-five years old, young man. But at that time I thought that "I am a married man, let me wait." So waiting, waiting. When I retired at the . . . I was born in 1896. So I retired in 1954. That means I retired at the age of fifty-eight years? At fifty-eight years. Then I remained as a vānaprastha in Vṛndāvana up to seventieth year of my age. Then I thought that "Guru Mahārāja asked me to do this at the age of . . . when I was twenty-five years old. I could not do it. So let me try." So by his grace and Kṛṣṇa's grace, it became little successful. That's all. In 1965 I went to New York without any help. But gradually, in 1966, I registered this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in New York. And then gradually, it spread whole America, Europe, Australia, Canada. Like that. What is the reason of the success of your mission in the foreign countries? "What is the reason of your success in foreign countries?" Yes. That is very intelligent question. We are after material civilization, and they are fed up with material civilization. That is the position. We are now trying to imitate them, a skyscraper building, but they are disgusted with such skyscraper building. These boys, they are coming from very respectable family, rich family, and especially in America there is no question of poor man. There is no question of poor man. But still, they do not like the materialistic way of life of their father and grandfathers. But does that not mean because they are rich, they can afford religion? No, no. That is the . . . because you are . . . we have already explained. You are a spiritual being. You cannot be satisfied with material atmosphere in any stage. Just like a fish is an animal of the water. If you bring the fish from water and keep on the land very comfortably, it cannot be comfortable. It is impossible. Similarly, we are all spiritual being. Any amount of material comforts will never satisfy us, unless we come to the spiritual platform. That is the demand. So now they have satisfied their material demands, but the urge is there, "I want something more, to be happy." And that is spiritual. What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples, or do your other disciples also do that? Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) . . . knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing. So our this movement is successful . . . on account of this movement . . . (faulty recording) (break) . . . because learned scholars and those who are inquisitive, advanced, they are seeing, "Yes, here is . . ." (break) . . . success abroad? Who has abroad success? Name them. (break) So it is not . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody knows of this. Maharishi . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Well, Maharishi does not say . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) He says that this is material. If you perform this meditation, Transcendental Meditation, you will be materially benefited. That is not spiritual meditation. (indistinct) . . . you have said that India should take this movement seriously. Yes. How do you want India to take this movement? *Seriously means that a spiritual movement is India's spiritual movement. So if some of our leading men take seriously, then whatever I am doing single*-handed . . . I don't get any support, either from the Indian public or from the government. But if they take it seriously, then we can present in more organized way, and it will be more successful. So far it is done single-handed. Do you think there is a necessity to open a ministry of religion? I think so. Because there is a cultural department in the central government, (chuckles) but they do not know what is culture. Just see. What is the difference between God consciousness and Kṛṣṇa consciousness? There is no difference. The same thing. Kṛṣṇa is God. (break) What is, sir, the number of your disciples round the world? Dedicated life—not less than ten thousand. And admirers, there are many millions. Recently one American politician has remarked in Houston that "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is spreading like epidemic. So unless we take some steps, it may take our government." (laughter) Who was the man who said it? Just say. A government official in Houston. No, no, what is his name? You can give. His name was not given. Oh. Simply it is said a government official. He said on the floor of the House or outside? Said it on the TV. Houston. Houston, Texas. (everyone talking at once) Are you getting any opposition from the Church? No. That is very favorable. No opposition. No. Otherwise, it was impossible. At least in America they have never prevented me. But in Europe, especially in England and Germany, they, the Christian group, they are little angry with me. But so far America, they are very liberal. They never put any impediments in my movement. Rather, government appreciates. The appreciated one point, that the American younger generation, they have become addicted to this LSD, intoxication, and they have spent millions of dollars to stop this, but they could not. But they are surprised that as soon as this LSD man becomes my disciple, he gives up immediately. Sir, apart from Catholicity of the American Church, what can be the other reasons of their indifference towards your positive ideas? Not indifference. They are . . . you see, there is a remark of a politician. There is no indifference. They are appreciating that it is spreading like epidemic. There is no question of indifference. But the leaders, they appreciate. Some of the fathers of my disciples, they come to offer their thanks, "Swāmījī, it is a great fortune for us that you have come to our country." They say like that. They appreciate that their sons were going to be hippies. Now they are devotees, God conscious. So any sane man will never object to this. The priests also, they say that "These boys are our boys," in Boston, one priest said, "and they never cared to come to the church or inquire about God. And now these boys are mad after God." Not only that, practically, in many places we have purchased churches and converted into temples. So we see these churches were sold because nobody was coming. But since this movement is there, the same church is there and the same persons are there—you will find always it is crowded. This is practical. I have not imported men from India to fill up the temples. Their men and their church, but the philosophy is different, it is filled up. Can you give us the number how many temples are there in foreign countries? I have established 102 temples. Small and big. Out of them, very big temples are in Los Angeles, in London, in Hawaii, Honolulu, in Detroit . . . and . . . New York, Chicago. New York, Chicago. Toronto. *Toronto, Montreal, Paris, so many. Very, very big temples. The cost is sometimes fifty lakhs , fifty*-five lakhs each temple. New York is more than a million dollars, New York temple. Do you have any proposal to spread this movement in Communist countries? Yes, we have already gone. I have been in Moscow. This, my secretary, he has brought some order from them. They are also appreciating. Now two priests of your temple in America have been arrested on certain charges as we read from the newspaper . . . *Well, the charges will be there. Gandhi was also charged and was arrested. And that you cannot stop. That will go on in any movement. That is not any fault. Because the counter*-charges are already there, everywhere. What is the American charges? I do not know. What is that? That you have took money from . . . extortion of money from the devotees. Asking their parents to pay, or some such thing. Parents to pay. This is a farce. As a donation or contribution. So we can ask donation from anyone. What is the fault there? Is it extortion? What is that extortion? Suppose if I ask for donation . . . No, they equate that this donation was extortion. No, no, extortion, what do you mean by extortion? If I ask you donation and if you pay, does it mean it is extortion? They say those two people were kept in custody before . . . *That is false accusation. There was no such charge. Besides that, we do not have many contribution. We have got contribution, big lump sum money . . . one of my disciples is the great*-grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. So he has given a big contribution, and he's always prepared to spend for me. He has got enough money. Another boy, George Harrison, Beatle, he has given us the London temple. It is worth about fifty-five, sixty lakhs worth. So we don't get any money, but they have given us many buildings. And our main source of income is the selling of these books. We are selling books daily all over the world, five to six lakhs rupees. Five to six lakhs . . . Rupees. Per day. Per day! And by this collection, from this collection, we are bringing money in India. We are bringing money in India not less than ten lakhs of rupees per month. Our buildings and temples are going on in Bombay, in Vṛndāvana, in Navadvīpa. So we have got at least ten lakhs of rupees' expenditure for these temples, and that I am bringing from foreign countries. So if by laboring hard at night in this Dictaphone I write books, and I sell them in the foreign countries and I bring the money here for spending in India, do you think it is faulty? One American professor who is a teacher of Hinduism there, in some of the universities you mentioned, she said, I asked him a question about ISKCON, and she said, "Well this thing is creating a bad impression in the sense that people are accosted everywhere—in the streets, on the airport, at the bus stand. They accost you and force you to buy their literature, to buy their books. And this is creating a revulsion." So why you are forced? Suppose as preaching work . . . in our childhood we saw the Christian preachers were also standing on the road. So if we stand on the road and preach and sell our books, what is the fault? I put that. He said you are doing what the Christian . . . (break) No. What is the problem? (break) No. The government allowed them, the Christian people. The government is allowing us also. Then where is the fault? The fault is . . . That is your imagination, fault. It's not a legal fault. Well, that's all right. We are preacher, we must preach in every way. We shall go everyone, that "Here is Kṛṣṇa consciousness literature. Kindly take it." That is our business. The government does not object to this. There are many cases in the court, and the court allowed, "Yes. They should sell." We have got some . . . (break) (faulty recording—not possible to properly hear; Prabhupada is arguing that as salesmen, if we canvass and people buy, there is nothing wrong in that) *(indistinct) . . . we distribute every week 22,000 books like this, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , 16,000 medium books . . . (indistinct) . . . magazines. So how is it possible we are forcing? About 150,000 people every week to take our books. *Not only that. Where is that letter? Standard Literature? Here, there is one English company, Standard Literature Company. They are proposing that "We shall purchase every quarterly 200 sets of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Let us settle terms." Do you mean to say it is extortion? And the professors are giving their opinion by extortion? It is appreciation. Unfortunately, you don't appreciate. But what is the reason your . . . Because there is substance. There is spiritual substance. They are appreciating. What is your analysis for why it is not being . . . (inaudible recording) *Because you have rejected. You have rejected. Your policy is now American, technology. You have given up spiritual (inaudible recording). Therefore in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, find out this verse, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām samādhau na vidhīyate (BG 2.44). Vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ . Those who are . . . whose attention is drawn to the material comforts, they cannot take an interest in spiritual life. (inaudible recording) Our attention is diverted how to improve materially. Therefore we are disinterested. But they have seen much about material advancement, they are not happy. Material advancement means generally, as we understand from the literature, viśayinaṁ saṅdarśanam atha yoṣitaṁ ca (CC Madhya 11.8). Material comfort means woman and money. So they have tasted all this woman and money enough. Woman, money are available very easily. But they are not interested. Sir, do you think it is necessary for India to eschew religion? *It is not religion. I have already explained. Did you not mark that this is spiritual knowledge? You are combination of spirit and matter. The spirit I have already explained. And if you don't take care of the spirit portion, then you are making suicide. You are losing the opportunity of your human life. It is essential. One should be cognizant of the spiritual necessity of life. Otherwise, you are losing the opportunity of this human form of life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Then you remain as cats and dogs, and there is risk, very risky life. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). You do not know what kind of body you are going to get next life. It is essential. You must be prepared . . . (break) . . . body, but you do not know what kind of body you are going to accept. That knowledge is lacking. One question. You have priced these books very high comparatively for the poorer countries. Do you have any plans to reduce . . . "You have priced these books very high for poor countries." We're printing locally now. The same books, but local printing so that they can be afforded by the public. Yes. When we print locally it will be sold at half price. *This Bhagavad*-gītā , for example, it's going to be sold to the masses at fifteen rupees in about three weeks. We are printing the Indian edition with 48 color plates. The government of India is giving us concessional paper for printing. They are very pleased with our . . . we're getting lot of concessional paper, so we are expanding the printing. What is the price of this edition? *This is, in America, it's seven dollars, seven dollars ninety*-five cents. And what the Home Member has said? The Home Minister? The Home Minister recently said that he wants this movement to be spread all over the world. One of the prominent people said he wants this movement to be spread all over the world. Now, sir, from your lips, how to attain this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and to maintain it? Once you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will maintain. You won't have to . . . No, from your own, direct from your lips, how to . . . *No, this direction is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that . . . (aside) Find out this verse, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is very simple thing. Find out this verse. (Indian guest is entering or leaving and Prabhupāda requests in Hindi for him to take prasādam ) "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me. Offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." Which chapter? It's Chapter Nine, verse 34. *So what is the difficulty? If you think of Kṛṣṇa, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto , is there any difficulty? There is no difficulty. I think his problem is, it is my problem as well. You see, the spiritual consciousness does not stay at the same level. Sometimes you are well absorbed. At other times you do all the arja , the arja , the bhakti . It's not a constant factor. No, you have to keep it constantly. How to do it? That is the problem. That we have see. If you come to our center, live with us, you'll see how we are doing it. You are welcome. You can live with us any time or any period of time. You'll see how we are doing that. Thank you, but you know I have been living here quite often, but . . . We have our centers. We have got big centers in Bombay, in Navadvīpa, in Vṛndāvana. We have got very comfortable guesthouse. So you can come and live with us and see practically. If you all don't mind, just for five minutes, we would like to read the selected extracts from some leading scholars about this movement. We're not reading the views of Western scholars. These books are being used in five thousand universities, including Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, but some of the leading Indian scholars, so you also get an understanding of the Indian appreciation of Prabhupāda's activities. This, for example, is a letter from Mr. Ghosh, District and Summon Judge in West Bengal: "I'm highly impressed at the sincerity and devotion of the disciples of the International Society of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. A visit to the Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir, West Bengal, sublimes the mind from all harsh talk and disturbing influences." Then . . . (aside) Stop now. Don't divert attention. This is a letter from Śrī Ambarish Sarkar, General Secretary of the Nadia District Congress Committee. "I have had an opportunity to visit the Śrī Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir on the 12th August, 1975. It is absolutely a religious institution. Jayapātāka Swami has devoted all of his efforts and endeavors to organize and propound the sacred name of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. I'm impressed by his charming manner and strength. Although it is a religious institution, this organization has performed many social services. Many poor and destitute families have had an opportunity to work, and at the same time they have become worshipers of Lord Śrī Caitanya. To engage these workers, so many industrial centers have already been started, such as handloom cloth, printing, etc. I wish this organization, with its help of the local people, all success." Now . . . *We're not only chanting, we are giving them work. We are trying to become self*-sufficient, the same idea of Gandhi's village organization, so they may not come out from the village. They'll be satisfied, village economics. That we are doing. Actually, Prabhupāda is doing the same thing in America now. Prabhupāda's . . . America we have nine . . . eleven centers like that. Farms. This is a review from a local, from O. P. Baradraj, Principal of Government College for Men, Chandigarh. One minute. Perhaps you are, any representative of Novara Times here? Yes, he is here. Yes. So you published, I think two years before, about our New Vrindavan. And you stated that it is a wonderful land, that . . . what is that? Dudh aur dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (River of milk and curd is flowing.) Adhyatmika ki Yamuna aur doodh dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (The Yamuna of spirituality and the river of milk and curd is flowing.) It is your remark. You have seen. Your representative went there and saw it. In October '74. Yes. Along with photographs. In big, whole page article with the . . . (indistinct) . . . published a series of four . . . three articles on last year's Janmāṣṭamī. This review from Mr. Baradraj . . . We are giving cow protection in the country where they are eaten by the people. Their staple food, beef, and they are accepting this movement, giving cow protection. Which are those areas? West Virginia, Philadelphia, New Orleans and . . . where? Miami, Canada, Vancouver. Like that. So if you don't mind, what is bad about eating . . . people who are eating beef? What is bad about it? Bad means you become bad. That's all. You can see these things are . . . But we can eat goat's meat, and other animal's meat. *Yes. And the thing is that cow is especially recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā , kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44), that you must produce enough food grains by agriculture and give protection to the cows. That means if you have got enough food grains to eat and if you have got enough milk to get fatty substance, then your whole economic question is solved. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). If you get sufficient food, there is no question of agitation. Everyone is satisfied, animal and man. So you must produce. That is recommendation in the Bhagavad-gītā . Sir, in the modern technological . . . Modern, we are not talking of modern or . . . we're talking . . . In this age, how has the, you know, instrument of production because of this tractor, mechanization of agriculture? *So that is your interpretation. But we are trying to present Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. That is our mission, that you produce food grains sufficiently and give protection to the cows so that food grains and milk will give you all benefits of economic question. You'll be satisfied. That's all. Not only that, I have practically seen that by God's arrangement there are so much land on this planet that you can produce ten times foodstuff of the whole population. But they are not doing that. They are utilizing land . . . just like in Africa I have seen, enough land is there, but what they are doing? They are keeping some cows and bulls, and when they are grown up . . . they are not given anything to eat; there is enough grass. And as soon as they are fatty, they are taken to the slaughterhouse—not for their own eating, but exporting. This business is going on. Similar business is going on in Australia and New Zealand. Unnecessarily they are killing these cows, and this shortage of foodstuff and shortage of milk, this is not good arrangement. *The recommended process in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). If you have sufficient foodstuff, then everyone is satisfied. And it is the duty of the vaiśya class, kṛṣi go-rakṣya vāṇijyam, go-rakṣya vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). The, according to Bhagavad-gītā , this is the business of the vaiśyas . The brāhmaṇas , they should be very much highly educated, enlightened in spiritual knowledge. The kṣatriyas , they should govern, give protection. The vaiśyas , they should produce enough food. And those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya , śūdras , they can help. That's all. This is their . . . then everyone will be satisfied. The society will go on. Just like in your body you require brain, the head—you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. Similarly, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . That is essential. If you have simply brain and no leg, then it is also useless. There must be brain and leg also. There must be brāhmaṇa, there must be śūdra, there must be . . . then the social arrangement is perfect. Would that mean that you support the ancient caste system? Huh? It is not caste system; it is division of labor. It is not caste system. A class of men must be intelligent; a class of men must be strong to give protection; and a class of men must be to produce food; *and a class of men, general worker. It is not caste system. Bhagavad*-gītā never says caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13): according to quality and work. You have made it caste system. You have no qualification of a brāhmaṇa , you are calling "I am brāhmaṇa ." That is caste system. But if you have got the quality of a brāhmaṇa and you work as a brāhmaṇa , that is necessary. That is necessary. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ . *Could we just take two minutes of your time? This is a review from Śrī Baradraj, Principal of Government College for Men, Chandigarh. He says, " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is one of the great classics of India. This commentary is a significant contribution to the religious literature of this country. Many of the conflicting views on certain ślokas have been beautifully resolved by Swāmījī. I congratulate the members of the Society for bringing out this wonderful work in such a lucid form. I shall be looking forward to the other publications." This is a review from Dr. Varshneya, senior professor and Head of Hindi Department, Dean and Curator of Arts, honorary librarian, Allahabad University, Allahabad. "Śrī A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda has really done a great service to Indian philosophy, religion and culture by translating Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam into English, with learned commentaries, and has thus provided source material to the Western world. Other philosophical and religious works published by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust also present a golden opportunity to the Western philosophers and scholars to drink deep at the celestial fountain of ancient Indian philosophy and spiritual wisdom." I'm just reading a few very quick ones. *There's one from a leading professor in Chandigarh, who you must be knowing, Dr. Jagadish Sharma, M.A., . . . (indistinct) . . . Delhi? He's from Punjab University. Author of nineteen books including Encyclopedia of India. So here is what Dr. Sharma says: "India's contribution towards the revivalism of the Hindu civilization culture by way of printing the Harvard Oriental Series was tremendous. But the work done by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is unsurpassable." He says it's even greater. "His Holiness has done a great service to the Indian culture by re*-interpreting the concepts enshrined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . This edition of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will go a long way to help the scientists in rediscovering phenomena of the universe which is yet to be discovered. The printing and the get-up of this book is excellent. The thoughts of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam radiate to anyone who sees it. This book helps to brighten the gloomy and dark clouds which are covered by the nuclear fear and apprehension of society." Where is that book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness? Some of my students, they are Ph.D's in science. They have written this book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness . And we are going to publish another book, Life Comes From Lif e. Sir, why don't you present us one set of . . . (laughter) Some part . . . Because this is our means of income. Kindly give us some contribution, you take as many . . . (laughter) I could only purchase one book. I cannot purchase four dozen books. Now you are here, I think you should present us one set so that we may read this. We have a library here where everyone can come and read. Besides, five or six other . . . fifteen libraries in Chandigarh have all our books. You can visit either of those fifteen or the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (guests talk at once) Thank you very much. So would any of you like to have any pictures of Gurujī? Or . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- October 26, 1976, Vrndavana He asks how many pages. Yogānanda asks how many . . . because they say that you sent a newsletter to all the GBCs and He asks how many pages was the newsletter. And I said just two lines. Newspaper? Newsletter to the GBC. What is that newsletter? You said: "Please be informed that Nitāi has become a venomous serpent." Eh? "Please be informed that Nitāi has become a venomous serpent." So this has been sent? (laughs) Yes, to the GBC. Yogānanda asked how many pages, when he heard about the newsletter. He thought that you spoke so long about that. And I just said, "Just two lines." But they never asked me what the letter said. Yes, two lines is sufficient. Punar mūṣiko bhava . Ah? Punar mūṣiko bhava . What is that? Punar mūṣiko bhava . Yes. This is exactly the same case. Punar mūṣiko bhava , you know the whole story? A mūṣika , a mouse, was made a tiger, and the tiger wanted to eat the saintly person who made him. First of all he was mouse. So he came to the saintly person, "Sir, I am troubled. Give me some benediction." "What do you want?" "Now, the cat always chases." "All right, you become cat so that you'll not be attacked." Then after some time he came, "I am being chased by the dog." "All right, you become a dog." From cat to dog, from mouse to . . . then again he came. "Still they are chasing me. Fox." And then in this way, and ultimately he was made a tiger. And after becoming a tiger, he began to look, staring on the . . . "What do you mean by this?" "I shall eat you." "Oh? You become again a mouse." (laughter) Again he become mouse. That's all. The perfect example. Ha? The perfect example. Now he look like dirty. You know, like brown. The dhotī's not white. It's like brownish, you know, like . . . He harassed. "He has not increased my . . ." Hearing and hearing, he wants to go. So why not, if he found some real disciplic succession, some bābājī , why he did not remain there? He is criticizing that our is not in the proper succession. So why he did not remain where he found the proper succession? Why he's sometimes in Vṛndāvana, sometimes Delhi, sometimes here? Why he is loitering? Crazy. Unfortunate. Unnecessarily picking out some trouble. *Fault*-finding. The bābājīs , they are against anything preaching. They are very, very much against preaching. So I am preaching. Bābājīs , the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs , and all of them, their idea is that I am ruining this bhajana and Hindu dharma . This is the propaganda. What I am writing, they are all wrong, and they are making . . . and they try to poison my disciples as far as possible so that the whole institution may be poisoned and break. This is their propaganda. That was one thing that Nitāi put in his letter, that the teachings of ISKCON are completely opposite or contradictory to what is actually in the śāstra . Now he has become tiger. He wants to kill that philosophy. When he did not know anything, he came to us. Now he has become learned, he wants to criticize. The same philosophy, "You have made me tiger, now I can see you are my eatable . . . (indistinct) . . ." (laughs) He could not find out any other eatable. "I shall eat you." The rascal. What can be done? (end) Conversation -- October 26, 1976, Vrndavana He asks how many pages. Yogānanda asks how many . . . because they say that you sent a newsletter to all the GBCs and He asks how many pages was the newsletter. And I said just two lines. Newspaper? Newsletter to the GBC. What is that newsletter? You said: "Please be informed that Nitāi has become a venomous serpent." Eh? "Please be informed that Nitāi has become a venomous serpent." So this has been sent? (laughs) Yes, to the GBC. Yogānanda asked how many pages, when he heard about the newsletter. He thought that you spoke so long about that. And I just said, "Just two lines." But they never asked me what the letter said. Yes, two lines is sufficient. Punar mūṣiko bhava . Ah? Punar mūṣiko bhava . What is that? Punar mūṣiko bhava . Yes. This is exactly the same case. Punar mūṣiko bhava , you know the whole story? A mūṣika , a mouse, was made a tiger, and the tiger wanted to eat the saintly person who made him. First of all he was mouse. So he came to the saintly person, "Sir, I am troubled. Give me some benediction." "What do you want?" "Now, the cat always chases." "All right, you become cat so that you'll not be attacked." Then after some time he came, "I am being chased by the dog." "All right, you become a dog." From cat to dog, from mouse to . . . then again he came. "Still they are chasing me. Fox." And then in this way, and ultimately he was made a tiger. And after becoming a tiger, he began to look, staring on the . . . "What do you mean by this?" "I shall eat you." "Oh? You become again a mouse." (laughter) Again he become mouse. That's all. The perfect example. Ha? The perfect example. Now he look like dirty. You know, like brown. The dhotī's not white. It's like brownish, you know, like . . . He harassed. "He has not increased my . . ." Hearing and hearing, he wants to go. So why not, if he found some real disciplic succession, some bābājī , why he did not remain there? He is criticizing that our is not in the proper succession. So why he did not remain where he found the proper succession? Why he's sometimes in Vṛndāvana, sometimes Delhi, sometimes here? Why he is loitering? Crazy. Unfortunate. Unnecessarily picking out some trouble. *Fault*-finding. The bābājīs , they are against anything preaching. They are very, very much against preaching. So I am preaching. Bābājīs , the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs , and all of them, their idea is that I am ruining this bhajana and Hindu dharma . This is the propaganda. What I am writing, they are all wrong, and they are making . . . and they try to poison my disciples as far as possible so that the whole institution may be poisoned and break. This is their propaganda. That was one thing that Nitāi put in his letter, that the teachings of ISKCON are completely opposite or contradictory to what is actually in the śāstra . Now he has become tiger. He wants to kill that philosophy. When he did not know anything, he came to us. Now he has become learned, he wants to criticize. The same philosophy, "You have made me tiger, now I can see you are my eatable . . . (indistinct) . . ." (laughs) He could not find out any other eatable. "I shall eat you." The rascal. What can be done? (end) Conversation -- October 31, 1976, Vrndavana . . . I want to do something in India. Yes. So, if you can arrange. Now I am purchasing car. I have given money to Gargamuni. Yes. So one car here in Delhi side, one in Calcutta side, one in . . . (indistinct) . . . for my going. And he is a good driver, he will drive. Eh? I do not know, but he said. (laughter) (indistinct) . . . I don't know about in India. Different thing altogether. Haṁsadūta is also a good driver. I am good for nothing. (laughs) Driver we'll get, there is no . . . so I want to preach little in the village. So for that purpose, in the big bus like that, we shall go with our tents, and we camp in a place where there is water, and begin our preaching. And Hindi books we are getting. In this way let me try in India, in the village, not in the city. Oh, yes. For us there is no problem, Prabhupāda, but it may be difficult for Your Divine Grace. No, what is difficult? (laughter) But I want to do something for India in the village. So that I . . . that, we are getting lands, making one center, we can go here and there, not continually. Suppose here is a center, we go sometimes this side, sometimes this side, sometimes come back again. Um hmm. Find one good camping spot. Yes. You go early in the morning and do something. If it is favorable . . . just like in Bengal they are doing. Get good reception. You have heard it? Yes, I heard. Very good reception. Villagers give the best reception. Oh, yes. Because they're . . . Still. They're still faithful to culture. Unless we get the farm, this farming scheme set up within the next . . . We are getting so many. We're getting the farms, but we haven't got the management, so . . . Management, that is in your hands. You have to . . . who will give you management? You have to manage local—local men. Bon Mahārāja was failure that he could not get the local men. But I did not try to bring men from India and preach in England or America. Hmm. How it is possible? The British Empire was established on management. They did not bring men from England. Few managers, that's all. That is called management. One man can control hundreds and thousands of men, and that is management. (long pause) Locally attracted. These Britishers came here, they introduced this zamindarī system. The what? Zamindarī system. Zamindar . Landlord. Yes. *So any third*-class man, if he's given some land, naturally he will be very much pleased. They created that aristocracy. So he selected some men that, "You give me four annas per bīghā , and whatever you can collect, that is your." That is the old system in India, zamindarī system. So collector, collector, the local collector, he appointed somebody. They used to give one lease that, "You give government four annas per bīghā , and whatever you can collect, that is your business." So that created an aristocratic society, and they all supported Britishers, because they're obliged. Yes. Similarly in business also, they appointed brokers that, "I am bringing a cloth from Manchester, if you can sell you'll get so much commission." So without any investment . . . They were in business. A broker club business. So the businessmen, the zamindars , and gradually they started their factories, railways—in this way they started. And they are big politicians, so it is their management. And they failed when things were mismanaged. First of all they created friendship, and later on when they were in power, they created enmity. Then it is failed. Hmm. First of all friendship, and that established them. And then they began to create enmity, Hindus against Muslim, Muslim . . . they wanted to stay. When they forgot this idea that if they wanted to stay for the benefit of the people, nobody could drive them away. But their policy was for the benefit of the English people. Therefore they failed. Lord Curzon, he says a statement that, "If you want to stay in India, rule India for the benefit of Indian people. You can keep control over India. They are fond of kings, so one member of the royal family can become king here, and they'll earn respect and honor, these Indian people. But rule for their benefit. Then British Empire will stay." Very good advice, but his advice was not taken. You have seen Lord Curzon's statue near the . . . in front of the Victoria Memorial Hall? Hmm. *He was a very good governor*-general. Many gentlemen came, they ruled very conscientiously, and the last one, that rascal Chelmsford (chuckles), he created havoc. Hmm. I saw in London . . . near London there is a village, Chelmsford, and he is Lord Chelmsford. We thought Chelmsford, the big state. (laughter) We were under the impression Thames River is four times bigger than Ganges, and (laughter) it is a canal. When I saw it, it is nothing but a canal. But they advertise this river, very big river. And underneath the water, men are going, and upper and wonderful. Big Ben, that Big Ben advertisement. Yeah. Parliament. All photograph (laughter) actually. Downing Street, 10 Downing Street, Prime Minister's office and so on. And actually it's all (chuckles) no importance. Parliament, big, big advertisement. People are still going, they are paying fees to see. Hmm. Now that is their income. Yeah, tourism is their biggest source of income, now. It is always cloudy. People are going to see the Westminster Abbey and Parliament. The whole tourist industry runs on propaganda. Yes. When you get there, there is nothing to see. In Parliament they have got old records bound up, almirah. You have seen? What it will do now? Speech of such and such person, speech of . . . (indistinct) (long pause) What they . . . why this water is? Well, they are watering the garden. Hmm. Were you thinking of any particular time when you wanted to do this village program? Hmm. I have nowhere experience. Haṁsadūta Mahārāja has traveled around . . . You can do it from here, even. You can start track from Vṛndāvana. (car door slams) I think some car has come? Maybe that's Bhīma. I'll check. Hmm. Maybe you could do it from Bengal, from Māyāpur. Hmm. Do the villages there. Yes. Because . . . Here the weather is already getting cold. Yeah. And in Hyderabad the peoples don't speak Hindi. They speak Telugu.. Bengal seems like the best place, because right now at least the weather is really nice. And Gargamuni's men have a lot of experience there, Śatadhanya and Jayapatāka. They know all the villages. Could do some good programs. This blood pressure is troubling. (break) They are chanting, "Say Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) They're taking, "Mind control." Yeah, mind control. Ordinarily they cannot charge anything, mind control, brainwash—subtle thing. Just like I . . . "I am sick." "How you are feeling?" "I am feeling some pain in the belly." Who is going to see? (laughter) (makes groaning noise of pain) Who can say? It is like that. Yeah. If you say that, "I am feeling some pain in this brain" or in there, who is going to see? Yeah, who can prove it? Yes. You have to believe me, that's all. I noticed in several of the articles, though, they mentioned that this District Attorney is now going to expand his investigation to see where the money goes. This is what they're really interested in. And when they see . . . what will happen is, when they see that some of the devotees collecting three, four hundred dollars on the street, then they will print this in the newspaper, and in this way . . . But they collect money by selling book. I know, but people don't understand this. They simply see that, "Oh, these are astronomical sums of money being collected. So what is being done with this money by people who are just chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? What do they do with it?" Then, "Oh, they have bought this big building in New York. They are doing . . . spending money like this, like that." Ultimately this is what it always come to—money. They want to see what is happening with the money. And similarly here also, "Where they are getting money?" Yeah, because wherever there is money transaction, the government wants to take some. They feel, "Well, we should have some of this money for ourselves, also." Yes. So this may be a problem in this case. The thing about brainwashing is not at all important. The important thing is if they look into our financial . . . That is our BBT Trust . . . . . . activities. That by the sales of . . . sales proceeds, we fifty percent for printing book and fifty percent for expanding, temples. Hmm. Yeah. That is religion. That is clearly written there. Yeah. So how they can check it? We are selling books. I don't think that in . . . in the end they will not be able to do anything, but for some time they can give us some trouble, harass us. So we have got already experience what it is to be done. Suggest. Well, we have to make a presentation of our movement properly, just like Tamāla suggested in the letter. Prominent persons, they have to speak on our behalf. And of course, the books must be in order. Another thing, that all the Indians in Europe and America, they should sign that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine religious. Yeah. Similarly here also, all the Kṛṣṇa conscious persons, especially here in Vṛndāvana, all the Gosvāmīs, they should be approached that this is the genuine Indian culture. Yeah. Perhaps we could even get statements from some of the favorable Indian ministers in the government. Just like this Home Minister and Tarun Kanti Ghosh in Calcutta. Yes. That would be very weighty. Yes. So do like that, that "This is genuine. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine cultural and religious movement." This should be taken from all prominent persons and sent there. And the copies of the standing order for all the universities. Yeah. The order forms. Original orders, that should be copied and sent. This arrangement, ask them all over India. And besides that, we have recently got a testimony of one university authorities, just like one Goswami from Calcutta University, and many others they have got. These copies should be sent immediately to. We can approach even the Chief Justice of Allahabad High Court. He came here. The minister here, the Governor of Punjab, he came to see me, the Governor . . . Andhra Pradesh government also. Eh? Andhra Pradesh, chief minister. Minister of Endowments. Minister Endowments. Collect all these and send it that, "This is a genuine movement because it is great cultural movement. Therefore Swami Bhaktivedanta wanted to give it to Europe, who are in the darkness." So anyway, now they are feeling the action of the medicine. (laughs) Yeah. (chuckles) So many big, big signboards, "Kṛṣṇa is coming." "Here is Kṛṣṇa." (sounds of pages being turned) "Here is Kṛṣṇa." Yeah, every heading has a "Kṛṣṇa" written. "Here is Kṛṣṇa." That I . . . that is our trap. Yes, the subject matter . . . That will . . . that will help us in selling Kṛṣṇa books. Yeah. "What is this nonsense Kṛṣṇa? Let us see." (chuckles) It is not in our disfavor, it is in favor. But still we have to defend. So as I suggested, you collect. Yes. And from Vṛndāvana you can have signature from anyone. Kṛṣṇa. Hmm. All the Gosvāmīs. That Atul Kṛṣṇa? Atul Kṛṣṇa, yes. Anyone will sign for Kṛṣṇa: "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is genuine India cultural religious movement." They have got doubt, "Whether it is bona fide religion?" Yes, it is. Well, you see the process of chanting, it is not common practice, and they think it is a kind of inducement. It is kind of brainwash process. It is. (laughs) Cleansing. Brainwash? No, it is heart wash. (laughter) We can send this, "It is not brainwash, but it is heart wash." Of course, brain and heart practically same. Yes. Mmm. (pause) Our temple, where many people come. Our Māyāpur temple, Hyderabad temple . . . it is not only in Europe or America—in India in our temples, so many. Yeah. It is genuine religious cult. You have to send all these people. Now note down and do all these things and send it. I can suggest. (noise in background) It is disturbing. There is some commotion all over the world . . . (break) . . . that, "The child . . . our child is lost altogether." Yes. But there who go . . . (indistinct) . . . they're not lost. No, no. They come back again. But here (chuckles), Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, one who comes, he'll be lost. (laughs) Brainwashed. There is no hope of their coming. And Gargamuni's father tried so much to get him back. Then he became hopeless. Yeah. He was pet child of his father and mother, and practically they closed their factory and everything. They become . . . they divorced and . . . (indistinct) Collapse. Collapse. I sent Gargamuni, "Go and . . ." I remember, he went home for some time. Yes. To try to get into that business. Yes. He was detected, though, because he wouldn't eat meat. (chuckles) No. He tried his best, his father. Then his father, "This child is lost." This term "brainwash," it comes from the Korean war and the Vietnamese war. They would, if they would capture a prisoner, especially if he was an officer, high ranking officer, they had some methods of what they say brainwash to turn his mind so that he would accept the enemy viewpoint. And as this happened to a person it was considered to be very, very . . . Great victory for the enemy. Great victory for the enemy. Just like because a high ranking officer in the army was captured by the enemy, then they would brainwash him. They had this, some process . . . In Pakistani they kill all brain, in Bangladesh. Anyone who worked in high profession like businessman, they caught and shut down. It was worse to kill. Yeah. Because everywhere the big men, they guide the nation. Yes. People are very much afraid of this idea of being brainwashed. They think that their minds can be changed without them knowing about it, so it scares them. For me it is better to remain in Vṛndāvana or die. (laughter) Hmm. Because they may be very envious, "Here is the man who is behind all this." (laughter) Yes. In Germany, this one man, he wrote that this movement is very dangerous, because these boys and girls who have come to this movement, they completely . . . they make themselves completely subservient to the dictation of one man. What is that? Whatever the man will say, they will do. Charmistic? What is called? Charmistic guru ? He has said. Dr. . . . Charismatic. Charismatic. (laughs) Yes, what is that charismatic? Charisma means a person who has a very strong attraction; he attracts. He has said. Actually our whole movement is going on on this. Everyone is carrying the charismatic, (laughs) all. Yeah, they know there's something different about our movement, I mean from any other. Everybody who sees the devotees for the first time, they immediately know these people are completely different from anyone else. Yasya deve parā bhaktir , yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23), this is the Vedic principle of our movement. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau . Firm faith. To respect and love the spiritual master as God. Therefore it is brainwash. This is the strength of our movement: faith in guru and śāstra . And everyone is writing. Let them write that, so they see that, "Why this one man is so respectfully accepted? It is brainwash." Hmm. They may sometimes give me trouble. Yes, generally it happens like that. If someone becomes very prominent, then they want to remove him. This is the tendency in the world. Yeah, because the demons, they think anyone who will allow themselves to become the servant of someone else, then they think he has got very weak character. Then they accuse the person who is in charge of manipulating that person. Just like there are so many men now, they are against this Sai Baba. Yes. Sai Baba is actually doing that brainwash. But they think of me also like that. Yes, because people cannot discriminate. They have no power to discriminate. They group us with all these other bogus people. But that happened when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was being praised by the Nawab. They were asking about Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "What is the position of this man that so many people are following Him?" So Sanātana Goswami, who was very bright, took it as a warning and asked Caitanya Mahāprabhu that "You leave this place as soon as possible." Hmm. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was not afraid, but He, as usual, He left that place. But Sanātana Goswami, at that time minister . . . He could understand. He took advice, the Nawab was so serious about Him. A Muhammadan may do something. So he said: "It is not good to stay here. You should go away." They decided that, "We shall go now with Him, but in the meantime let Him go." Because there were parts of India, Muhammadan influence, especially Bengal was Muhammadan kingdom. So this was warning. Then he told the Nawab that, "He is a beggar. Why do you think of Him as serious man? He is beggar. Some people follow Him, not many." So he said: "Don't try to mislead me. I know. He's not beggar, He's God. Otherwise how so many people are following Him?" The Nawab, he said that. Huh. "He's not ordinary man. Don't say that He's beggar," he said. (laughs) Nobody follows a beggar like that, that is it. After all, he was king, he had some brain. (laughs) So he wanted to brainwash, "Don't think of Him very seriously. A beggar. Some people, sentimental." "No, don't say like that. A beggar is never followed by so many men." The same thing happened to Jesus. Because so many people would follow him, the government became very . . . Yes. That, what do you call it? Crucified him? Yeah. He was becoming very popular. So . . . And at least according to Bible, it appeared that the Jewish priests, they went to the governor or the chief man at that time, and they demanded that he has to do something about this man. They have proposed it. That Houston politician, "It is spreading like epidemic." Hmm? (aside) Come. "It is spreading like epidemic. Something must be done." Otherwise one day they'll capture our government." That's a fact. If so many young men join this movement, they will vote. Because your country is democratic. (conchshell blows) Do this what I suggested. Yeah. You see them . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) "What is this pressure?" "Sir is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (laughter) And very bad." Some day somebody says: "No, it is good." (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa pressure. That pressure is being felt. *Cap tar porche. Cap porlei bat bolbe . . . ar ta na hole ke kar katha bole? (He is getting pressure. If he gets pressure then he will talk . . . otherwise who cares for whom?) Otherwise, who cares for whom? There are so many things. Here also, they are feeling the pressure, the so*-called svāmīs , yogīs , gosvāmīs , religious groups, Māyāvādīs . . . Communists. Eh? Communists, too. Communists. That is our success. Everyone is now feeling the pressure. Cap. (Pressure.) and they are talking Baat, (Talk.) In such a short time, so much money, so much expansion, so many devotees, what is this? That is Kṛṣṇa. Like Vāmanadeva expanded His foot, and He covered the . . . (laughs) Yes. First people thought, "Oh these are crazy fellows," and now suddenly they are everywhere. Amader onek baro baro sob professional ra boleche sob. (All the professionals said this about us.) Almost all of them, doctor, who have spoken. You have read that? Yes, I have read. All respectable. Indian and American, all learned scholars, they have spoken. Where is that statement given? And Dr. Shaligram, he has spoken very nice. Where is that? Dr. Shaligram, Indian Professor, anthropology or something like that. So now better to see the movement from behind, who is that man behind it. (laughter) Now they're looking for you. That British government said: "Gandhi in jail is more dangerous than he is free." (laughter) These are the statements. Hmm. Dr. Shaligram? Yeah, Dr. Shaligram Shukla. Hmm. Education: he graduated from the University of Cambridge and a B.A. in Classical Languages 1962. Graduated from Cornell University, Ithaca, New York, in Tibetan Linguists and he has a Ph.D. in Linguistics. Cambridge? *He has several . . . he has several books out. "He was born in India in a traditional brāhmaṇa family. He learned Sanskrit at the age of 10, and his knowledge of the Hindu scriptures written in Sanskrit is very profound. He has committed to memory the entire Bhagavad*-gītā scripture and one fourth of the Ṛg Veda . He himself is a worshiper of Kṛṣṇa. His teachings is a way of life, and he is extremely competent to judge whether the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is authentic and bona fide." He came to see you in Washington. Hmm. *So this was his statement, "There are eighteen chapters in Bhagavad*-gītā , eighteen thousand verses in the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam and several hundred verses in the Upaniṣads. These are the literary works which form the foundation of Indian culture and religion. They are all in Sanskrit. His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, has transcribed these texts, has translated them and has explained their essence in English . . . from Sanskrit into English. One is an ancient classical language and the other a foreign language, a difficult task indeed. I have state . . ." (break) *Brahman means unlimited happiness. Ananta brahma*-saukyam ananta suddhyed sattvam yasmād suddhyed satya . You purify your existence and you are hankering after happiness, you'll get the unlimited, greatest happiness, yasmād brahma-saukyam anantam . Hmm. So Dr. Allen Gerson says: "I am here today as a citizen who dislikes injustice, as a person whose own people, because of their religious beliefs, are being persecuted repeatedly, and as a scientist who knows how ignorance can turn the normal rationality of people into blind hatred." He's Jewish. "As a citizen I can see a great injustice perpetrated here. Several people, all of legal age, have chosen a lifestyle which, because it differs in form from our lifestyle, has been viewed by their families as unacceptable. These families, with honest but misguided intentions, have had their children removed from the Hare Kṛṣṇa temple and have attempted to reprogram them to the behavior and attitudes of society at large. The reprogramming obviously did not work, and their children returned to the movement, thus angering and frustrating their parents. Not being able to understand the wishes of their children, or their behavior, or their motivation for returning, and needing to blame someone, they effected through devious means to have two members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." He has used very nice strong words. *Hmm. "They effected through devious means to have two members of the New York Hare Kṛṣṇa centers to be arrested. Therein lies the inception of the injustice. To compound it, a judge and a grand jury agreed with their charges of unlawful imprisonment and brainwashing—a charge which is unheard of to my knowledge in civil legal proceedings—and ordered the devotees to be jailed. As a citizen I am appalled by the over*-reaction, the lack of understanding and the hate that finds wrongdoing not only by the people that make the charges, but by the court as well." He says the same thing. Hmm? That this charge is unheard of in the legal history, brainwashing and . . . what was it? Brainwashing what? Brainwashing. That there was never such a charge in the history of law, someone who's been brainwashed. (continues reading) "As a person whose own people have been persecuted for their own beliefs, I can sympathize with any . . ." You can charge anyone, brainwashing. Yeah. That means anybody who does anything is being brainwashed . . . (indistinct) . . . brainwashing. (continues reading) "The fault of this religion differs from our . . ." Mind control. Yes. These are charges? (laughter) "I'm controlling your mind," charges. No, you are controlling my mind. These are the charges. (chuckles) He's controlling his mind. (laughter) (continues reading) "The fault of this religion differs from our Western thought. Throughout history the group tried to find God through beliefs other than those which were held by the majority, and if those beliefs were very different from the majority's, such beliefs were almost always . . ." (indistinct) . . . their arguments so strong. Unbeatable debaters. Eh? Yeah, and their theories were that because . . . because they are . . . they have accepted Your Divine Grace as the absolute authority, that they will do anything that you say, and therefore these people are very dangerous. They don't care for anything. They're not interested in the normal standards and goals . . . Charmistic, charmistic . . . what is that? Charismatic. Charismatic. Charismatic. There is . . . they usually use this word to describe a person who attracts people, but no one can understand why. Therefore they cannot explain: brainwash, mind control, charismatic, like that they use. Yeah, he says that here, because of their own ignorance then they find fault. He goes on, "From this misunderstanding came fear, then hatred, and from hatred grew injustices and often atrocities. An injustice is now being perpetrated through ignorance. Are atrocities far off? This may sound like an overstatement, but for those who say: 'It can't happen here,' it already has, such as to the American Indians and to our people, Japanese descendant. The time to stop such action is at the beginning, now. The way to stop it is to replace ignorance with knowledge, and hatred with understanding. Sometimes people stand off at a distance and look at another person's belief and laugh at them or fear them. But as they get closer, they may come to understand how similar the observer's beliefs may be to their own beliefs. As a scientist, a psychologist, I have tried to learn about and understand the Hare Kṛṣṇa people. For nearly a year I have spent hours each week talking with, reading about, and testing members of the movement. I have been to their temples in this country and in Europe. I have eaten in their homes and I have been to their children's schools. What I have found is a group of people trying to find God and live as close to the way that He would like them to live. There is no place in their lives for immorality, for cruelty to other people or animals, for artificial stimulants or harmful chemicals such as alcohol, drugs or tobacco. At first glance their approach to God may seem alien to us, with their different dress, the incense and the many statues and their unique ceremonies, but a closer look reveals similarities to our religious practices that are just the same. In Catholicism we find the holy water, chanting on the rosary, statues of saints and incense. And in Judaism we find the blowing of the shofar." And they say the cow's urine, they are forcing to eat. (laughter) Eta holo pancamrta te, gow mutro dite hoy. Seta heading dicche ye, (In pancamrita you have to mix cow's urine, so they made a headline of it) . . . that they are forcing the devotees to drink cow's urine. (laughter) These are the charges: brainwash, mind control, forcing cow's urine to drink. (laughter) How clever they are to find out some fictitious faults. You see, you see they have . . . they put these two boys in a mental institution. Yes. When they can't . . . this is what happens in these countries. When they can't find any legal point, they can put the person into a mental institution to be examined. The premise is that if we find that a person is drinking cow's urine, we may think he must be crazy, because we have never heard of such a thing. So in this way they can . . . Commit them. Yeah, they commit them . . . Forcibly they just put them into a mental institution where they're observed. *Where they . . . that observation, so*-called observation, means that they give them all kinds of drugs which make them very dopey, and then they influence them to try to become normal again, what they think is normal. Sometimes they give them electric shocks, which leaves them . . . In the lunatic asylum. Yeah, which leaves them in a very shocked condition, and then they, what they call reprogram them. That means they brainwash them back into another way, to another style of life, like that. Eirakam! Prabhupada! (They like this Prabhupāda.) Kare ekhane, Ranchi te kare. (Yes, they like this in Ranchi.) *So it goes on, (continues reading) "In Judaism we find the blowing of the shofar, or ram's horn, and in the Orthodox synagogue there is separation of men and women. Differences of dress are expressed amongst Orthodox Jews and amongst various Christian orders. Our own Pilgrim ancestors differed in dress from the Popish gentry of their time. I have studied and tested the Hare Kṛṣṇa people and have not found them to be weird or insane, only different from the mainstream. Like any other evangelical or proselytizing religion, their converts could only become converts if they choose to believe. For example, no one can drag a person to a Baptist Church and brainwash him into taking God into his heart. He has to want to accept willingly. No one is ever held against their will by the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. I have never seen it, nor have my colleagues ever seen it. In examining the various members of this religion, I have not found one who appears to be brainwashed or dopey*-like. In fact their mental health and normality astounds me. If you cannot accept Kṛṣṇa, God, they will sympathize with you and hope that you will eventually find Him and will wish you well as you go on your way. There have been devotees who have left the movement and have said negative things about it, but the sour grapes syndrome is not unusual for dropouts anyway. I wonder how many West Point dropouts vilify the Army, or how many seminary dropouts leave and disdain their religion? After a rational person spends time with the Hare Kṛṣṇa people and learns to understand them, he could never believe them to be guilty of the charges which have been made here in New York recently." That's all right, positive. And then this is Dr. Stillson Judah. Hmm. He's a graduate from University of Washington, majoring in Oriental Studies, graduate from University of California with a Ph.D in Sanskrit and Indian Languages, and he received an honorary degree from Chapman College, Southern California. And he has various posts as professor of history of religion, etc . . . He has written about us big book. Yeah. Big book. Bring that, bring that book. After five years' scrutinizingly studying, statistics, graphics. And he has put my picture in it. Looks like your book. . . . (indistinct) O ki bolche sunun. (Listen to what he has to say.) Dr. Stillson Judah says: "The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, and more formally the International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, ISKCON, is a Western representation of an important Hindu sect, Vaiṣṇavism . . ." He says: "Important Hindu sect." How they can say whether it is a genuine? Important. Not only genuine but important, Vaiṣṇavism. *Hmm. (continues reading) ". . . whose worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, in one of His many forms is one of the most important religions of India. The American devotees of ISKCON worship Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Being, the highest Personality of Godhead, whose worship, according to the archaeological and epigraphic evidence, is pre*-Christian in origin, as found in India's early sacred texts, the Ṛg Veda , Atharva Veda , etc. The detailed history of Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is found in the religious text of the Bhāgavata Purāṇa , and the philosophical basis of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is found in India's most sacred book, the Bhagavad-gītā . These sacred texts and others have been translated and commented upon by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda and are being studied today in many major universities across the United States. The particular form of Vaisnavism of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement dates from Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, one of India's saints born in 1486 A.D. in Nadia, India. His immediate followers organized this philosophy in a number of Sanskrit texts, and His religious practices, such as chanting and dancing, are most authentically represented in America by the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees according to this tradition. Lord Caitanya, worshiped as the last incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, initiated a disciplic succession. In the mid nineteenth century, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura appeared in this spiritual lineage. Soon afterwards, his son Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, became the spiritual master of India's Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, and his most prominent student was Śrīla Prabhupāda. It was at Bhaktisiddhānta's command that Śrīla Prabhupāda later came to America to bring the teachings and practices of Caitanya to the West. My study of these American devotees, which I have pursued since 1968, was published in my book, Hare Krishna and the Counterculture, published by John Wiley and Sons in 1974, New York. The sociological data, revealed through a detailed questionnaire and many hours of taped interviews, indicates that many of the devotees had been influenced by the hippie culture of the 1960s. However, after they joined the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, their lives became completely changed from a life of drugs, illicit sex and violence to one of dedication to a spiritual discipline and morality and to helping others in their search for happiness. In this period of rapid social and cultural change . . ." This is the fact, in many cases. So many drunkards, so many violence . . . that . . . (name withheld) (name withheld) Big drunkard. Yeah. (name withheld) Hmm. (continues reading) "In this period of rapid social and cultural change, this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is giving many of our youths new meaning to their lives, without which many would have remained alienated, disenchanted, irresponsible citizens." This is a letter that was written by one devotee, Śravaṇānanda dāsa, by his mother. Śravaṇānanda is here in India. Shall I read this? Can read it, yes. My son Daniel, Śravaṇānanda dāsa, entered the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement almost five years ago. The only request that he made of me and my husband was that we read about the Hare Kṛṣṇa philosophy and try to understand his new way of life. My husband and I have read everything we could find about the movement and the philosophy. We have visited the Hare Kṛṣṇa centers in Philadelphia and New York frequently, always speaking to the devotees and having our questions answered. Evidently these youths feel a revulsion towards the sense gratification of forbidden . . . permissive values of our society. When I see how happy the devotees are . . ." Haṁsadūta, Haṁsadūta? Haṁsadūta? The Ceylon is an educated, and if they are receiving, why not open a branch? (continues reading) "He recently returned home after almost three years in India. My husband and I could see the awareness and maturity in him gained from his experiences in working with the Indian people. He learned firsthand about a different culture, and it certainly has enriched his life. In our minds we can compare our son's life to the life of a Catholic monk or a religious Jew of the Hasidic sect. Do I think that my son is brainwashed? I can best answer this by answering the question, is our whole society not being brainwashed daily by the advertisement media—liquor, smoking, pornographic movies and literature? And which is worse? And what about the children who are being educated by the violence and killing on T.V.? I prefer that my son is devoting his life to the love of God and the service of humanity, a rare endeavor in this age. Since I know that my son has voluntarily chosen the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement to exercise these rights, and that he can leave it whenever he wishes, I cannot see how the term 'brainwashing' can be applicable to this movement. I sincerely believe from my contacts with many devotees that they are happy and have found fulfillment by loving and serving Lord Kṛṣṇa, God. This may not be my wish for my life, but my son has chosen it for his, and I wholeheartedly respect it." . . . (indistinct) Yes. (pause) Eibar, apnar ki ektu bhalo lagche? (Is your health okay now?) Kalker ceye bhalo. Ekhane ekta (Better than yesterday. Here one) . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct) Jela oi Nadiai, Yekhane Pagla Babar ashram hoyeche na! (District is Nadia, where the Pagla Baba's ashrama is.) Hya, hya, hya. (Yes, yes, yes.) Oikhane. (There.) Ami giyechilam. Sekhane ektu anyarakam jinis patra ache. (I went there. Some other types of things present there.) *Hmm, go*-sala ache, goru ekta ache. (a cowshed is there, and a cow as well.) Goru ekta! (A cow.) *Hya, bais bachor pac cha*-mas . . . (Yes not too old, only 22 years and 5 to 6 months . . .) (indistinct) . . . mandirer janye, utpadan er janye. (providing for the temple.) Manage korechi eikhane, jayga to gelei paoa yay. (Wherever we will go we can get a place, we have to manage here.) (indistinct) . . . sambhabana, erom hoyar ucit o. (possibility, and that must be done.) *Choto*-khato onek boi beriyeche amader samparke. (There are many small books published about us.) *Hm, choto*-khato. (small books.) Ar er boi to . . . (And this book is . . .) (indistinct) . . . (end) Conversation -- October 31, 1976, Vrndavana . . . I want to do something in India. Yes. So, if you can arrange. Now I am purchasing car. I have given money to Gargamuni. Yes. So one car here in Delhi side, one in Calcutta side, one in . . . (indistinct) . . . for my going. And he is a good driver, he will drive. Eh? I do not know, but he said. (laughter) (indistinct) . . . I don't know about in India. Different thing altogether. Haṁsadūta is also a good driver. I am good for nothing. (laughs) Driver we'll get, there is no . . . so I want to preach little in the village. So for that purpose, in the big bus like that, we shall go with our tents, and we camp in a place where there is water, and begin our preaching. And Hindi books we are getting. In this way let me try in India, in the village, not in the city. Oh, yes. For us there is no problem, Prabhupāda, but it may be difficult for Your Divine Grace. No, what is difficult? (laughter) But I want to do something for India in the village. So that I . . . that, we are getting lands, making one center, we can go here and there, not continually. Suppose here is a center, we go sometimes this side, sometimes this side, sometimes come back again. Um hmm. Find one good camping spot. Yes. You go early in the morning and do something. If it is favorable . . . just like in Bengal they are doing. Get good reception. You have heard it? Yes, I heard. Very good reception. Villagers give the best reception. Oh, yes. Because they're . . . Still. They're still faithful to culture. Unless we get the farm, this farming scheme set up within the next . . . We are getting so many. We're getting the farms, but we haven't got the management, so . . . Management, that is in your hands. You have to . . . who will give you management? You have to manage local—local men. Bon Mahārāja was failure that he could not get the local men. But I did not try to bring men from India and preach in England or America. Hmm. How it is possible? The British Empire was established on management. They did not bring men from England. Few managers, that's all. That is called management. One man can control hundreds and thousands of men, and that is management. (long pause) Locally attracted. These Britishers came here, they introduced this zamindarī system. The what? Zamindarī system. Zamindar . Landlord. Yes. *So any third*-class man, if he's given some land, naturally he will be very much pleased. They created that aristocracy. So he selected some men that, "You give me four annas per bīghā , and whatever you can collect, that is your." That is the old system in India, zamindarī system. So collector, collector, the local collector, he appointed somebody. They used to give one lease that, "You give government four annas per bīghā , and whatever you can collect, that is your business." So that created an aristocratic society, and they all supported Britishers, because they're obliged. Yes. Similarly in business also, they appointed brokers that, "I am bringing a cloth from Manchester, if you can sell you'll get so much commission." So without any investment . . . They were in business. A broker club business. So the businessmen, the zamindars , and gradually they started their factories, railways—in this way they started. And they are big politicians, so it is their management. And they failed when things were mismanaged. First of all they created friendship, and later on when they were in power, they created enmity. Then it is failed. Hmm. First of all friendship, and that established them. And then they began to create enmity, Hindus against Muslim, Muslim . . . they wanted to stay. When they forgot this idea that if they wanted to stay for the benefit of the people, nobody could drive them away. But their policy was for the benefit of the English people. Therefore they failed. Lord Curzon, he says a statement that, "If you want to stay in India, rule India for the benefit of Indian people. You can keep control over India. They are fond of kings, so one member of the royal family can become king here, and they'll earn respect and honor, these Indian people. But rule for their benefit. Then British Empire will stay." Very good advice, but his advice was not taken. You have seen Lord Curzon's statue near the . . . in front of the Victoria Memorial Hall? Hmm. *He was a very good governor*-general. Many gentlemen came, they ruled very conscientiously, and the last one, that rascal Chelmsford (chuckles), he created havoc. Hmm. I saw in London . . . near London there is a village, Chelmsford, and he is Lord Chelmsford. We thought Chelmsford, the big state. (laughter) We were under the impression Thames River is four times bigger than Ganges, and (laughter) it is a canal. When I saw it, it is nothing but a canal. But they advertise this river, very big river. And underneath the water, men are going, and upper and wonderful. Big Ben, that Big Ben advertisement. Yeah. Parliament. All photograph (laughter) actually. Downing Street, 10 Downing Street, Prime Minister's office and so on. And actually it's all (chuckles) no importance. Parliament, big, big advertisement. People are still going, they are paying fees to see. Hmm. Now that is their income. Yeah, tourism is their biggest source of income, now. It is always cloudy. People are going to see the Westminster Abbey and Parliament. The whole tourist industry runs on propaganda. Yes. When you get there, there is nothing to see. In Parliament they have got old records bound up, almirah. You have seen? What it will do now? Speech of such and such person, speech of . . . (indistinct) (long pause) What they . . . why this water is? Well, they are watering the garden. Hmm. Were you thinking of any particular time when you wanted to do this village program? Hmm. I have nowhere experience. Haṁsadūta Mahārāja has traveled around . . . You can do it from here, even. You can start track from Vṛndāvana. (car door slams) I think some car has come? Maybe that's Bhīma. I'll check. Hmm. Maybe you could do it from Bengal, from Māyāpur. Hmm. Do the villages there. Yes. Because . . . Here the weather is already getting cold. Yeah. And in Hyderabad the peoples don't speak Hindi. They speak Telugu.. Bengal seems like the best place, because right now at least the weather is really nice. And Gargamuni's men have a lot of experience there, Śatadhanya and Jayapatāka. They know all the villages. Could do some good programs. This blood pressure is troubling. (break) They are chanting, "Say Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) They're taking, "Mind control." Yeah, mind control. Ordinarily they cannot charge anything, mind control, brainwash—subtle thing. Just like I . . . "I am sick." "How you are feeling?" "I am feeling some pain in the belly." Who is going to see? (laughter) (makes groaning noise of pain) Who can say? It is like that. Yeah. If you say that, "I am feeling some pain in this brain" or in there, who is going to see? Yeah, who can prove it? Yes. You have to believe me, that's all. I noticed in several of the articles, though, they mentioned that this District Attorney is now going to expand his investigation to see where the money goes. This is what they're really interested in. And when they see . . . what will happen is, when they see that some of the devotees collecting three, four hundred dollars on the street, then they will print this in the newspaper, and in this way . . . But they collect money by selling book. I know, but people don't understand this. They simply see that, "Oh, these are astronomical sums of money being collected. So what is being done with this money by people who are just chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? What do they do with it?" Then, "Oh, they have bought this big building in New York. They are doing . . . spending money like this, like that." Ultimately this is what it always come to—money. They want to see what is happening with the money. And similarly here also, "Where they are getting money?" Yeah, because wherever there is money transaction, the government wants to take some. They feel, "Well, we should have some of this money for ourselves, also." Yes. So this may be a problem in this case. The thing about brainwashing is not at all important. The important thing is if they look into our financial . . . That is our BBT Trust . . . . . . activities. That by the sales of . . . sales proceeds, we fifty percent for printing book and fifty percent for expanding, temples. Hmm. Yeah. That is religion. That is clearly written there. Yeah. So how they can check it? We are selling books. I don't think that in . . . in the end they will not be able to do anything, but for some time they can give us some trouble, harass us. So we have got already experience what it is to be done. Suggest. Well, we have to make a presentation of our movement properly, just like Tamāla suggested in the letter. Prominent persons, they have to speak on our behalf. And of course, the books must be in order. Another thing, that all the Indians in Europe and America, they should sign that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine religious. Yeah. Similarly here also, all the Kṛṣṇa conscious persons, especially here in Vṛndāvana, all the Gosvāmīs, they should be approached that this is the genuine Indian culture. Yeah. Perhaps we could even get statements from some of the favorable Indian ministers in the government. Just like this Home Minister and Tarun Kanti Ghosh in Calcutta. Yes. That would be very weighty. Yes. So do like that, that "This is genuine. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine cultural and religious movement." This should be taken from all prominent persons and sent there. And the copies of the standing order for all the universities. Yeah. The order forms. Original orders, that should be copied and sent. This arrangement, ask them all over India. And besides that, we have recently got a testimony of one university authorities, just like one Goswami from Calcutta University, and many others they have got. These copies should be sent immediately to. We can approach even the Chief Justice of Allahabad High Court. He came here. The minister here, the Governor of Punjab, he came to see me, the Governor . . . Andhra Pradesh government also. Eh? Andhra Pradesh, chief minister. Minister of Endowments. Minister Endowments. Collect all these and send it that, "This is a genuine movement because it is great cultural movement. Therefore Swami Bhaktivedanta wanted to give it to Europe, who are in the darkness." So anyway, now they are feeling the action of the medicine. (laughs) Yeah. (chuckles) So many big, big signboards, "Kṛṣṇa is coming." "Here is Kṛṣṇa." (sounds of pages being turned) "Here is Kṛṣṇa." Yeah, every heading has a "Kṛṣṇa" written. "Here is Kṛṣṇa." That I . . . that is our trap. Yes, the subject matter . . . That will . . . that will help us in selling Kṛṣṇa books. Yeah. "What is this nonsense Kṛṣṇa? Let us see." (chuckles) It is not in our disfavor, it is in favor. But still we have to defend. So as I suggested, you collect. Yes. And from Vṛndāvana you can have signature from anyone. Kṛṣṇa. Hmm. All the Gosvāmīs. That Atul Kṛṣṇa? Atul Kṛṣṇa, yes. Anyone will sign for Kṛṣṇa: "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is genuine India cultural religious movement." They have got doubt, "Whether it is bona fide religion?" Yes, it is. Well, you see the process of chanting, it is not common practice, and they think it is a kind of inducement. It is kind of brainwash process. It is. (laughs) Cleansing. Brainwash? No, it is heart wash. (laughter) We can send this, "It is not brainwash, but it is heart wash." Of course, brain and heart practically same. Yes. Mmm. (pause) Our temple, where many people come. Our Māyāpur temple, Hyderabad temple . . . it is not only in Europe or America—in India in our temples, so many. Yeah. It is genuine religious cult. You have to send all these people. Now note down and do all these things and send it. I can suggest. (noise in background) It is disturbing. There is some commotion all over the world . . . (break) . . . that, "The child . . . our child is lost altogether." Yes. But there who go . . . (indistinct) . . . they're not lost. No, no. They come back again. But here (chuckles), Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, one who comes, he'll be lost. (laughs) Brainwashed. There is no hope of their coming. And Gargamuni's father tried so much to get him back. Then he became hopeless. Yeah. He was pet child of his father and mother, and practically they closed their factory and everything. They become . . . they divorced and . . . (indistinct) Collapse. Collapse. I sent Gargamuni, "Go and . . ." I remember, he went home for some time. Yes. To try to get into that business. Yes. He was detected, though, because he wouldn't eat meat. (chuckles) No. He tried his best, his father. Then his father, "This child is lost." This term "brainwash," it comes from the Korean war and the Vietnamese war. They would, if they would capture a prisoner, especially if he was an officer, high ranking officer, they had some methods of what they say brainwash to turn his mind so that he would accept the enemy viewpoint. And as this happened to a person it was considered to be very, very . . . Great victory for the enemy. Great victory for the enemy. Just like because a high ranking officer in the army was captured by the enemy, then they would brainwash him. They had this, some process . . . In Pakistani they kill all brain, in Bangladesh. Anyone who worked in high profession like businessman, they caught and shut down. It was worse to kill. Yeah. Because everywhere the big men, they guide the nation. Yes. People are very much afraid of this idea of being brainwashed. They think that their minds can be changed without them knowing about it, so it scares them. For me it is better to remain in Vṛndāvana or die. (laughter) Hmm. Because they may be very envious, "Here is the man who is behind all this." (laughter) Yes. In Germany, this one man, he wrote that this movement is very dangerous, because these boys and girls who have come to this movement, they completely . . . they make themselves completely subservient to the dictation of one man. What is that? Whatever the man will say, they will do. Charmistic? What is called? Charmistic guru ? He has said. Dr. . . . Charismatic. Charismatic. (laughs) Yes, what is that charismatic? Charisma means a person who has a very strong attraction; he attracts. He has said. Actually our whole movement is going on on this. Everyone is carrying the charismatic, (laughs) all. Yeah, they know there's something different about our movement, I mean from any other. Everybody who sees the devotees for the first time, they immediately know these people are completely different from anyone else. Yasya deve parā bhaktir , yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23), this is the Vedic principle of our movement. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau . Firm faith. To respect and love the spiritual master as God. Therefore it is brainwash. This is the strength of our movement: faith in guru and śāstra . And everyone is writing. Let them write that, so they see that, "Why this one man is so respectfully accepted? It is brainwash." Hmm. They may sometimes give me trouble. Yes, generally it happens like that. If someone becomes very prominent, then they want to remove him. This is the tendency in the world. Yeah, because the demons, they think anyone who will allow themselves to become the servant of someone else, then they think he has got very weak character. Then they accuse the person who is in charge of manipulating that person. Just like there are so many men now, they are against this Sai Baba. Yes. Sai Baba is actually doing that brainwash. But they think of me also like that. Yes, because people cannot discriminate. They have no power to discriminate. They group us with all these other bogus people. But that happened when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was being praised by the Nawab. They were asking about Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "What is the position of this man that so many people are following Him?" So Sanātana Goswami, who was very bright, took it as a warning and asked Caitanya Mahāprabhu that "You leave this place as soon as possible." Hmm. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was not afraid, but He, as usual, He left that place. But Sanātana Goswami, at that time minister . . . He could understand. He took advice, the Nawab was so serious about Him. A Muhammadan may do something. So he said: "It is not good to stay here. You should go away." They decided that, "We shall go now with Him, but in the meantime let Him go." Because there were parts of India, Muhammadan influence, especially Bengal was Muhammadan kingdom. So this was warning. Then he told the Nawab that, "He is a beggar. Why do you think of Him as serious man? He is beggar. Some people follow Him, not many." So he said: "Don't try to mislead me. I know. He's not beggar, He's God. Otherwise how so many people are following Him?" The Nawab, he said that. Huh. "He's not ordinary man. Don't say that He's beggar," he said. (laughs) Nobody follows a beggar like that, that is it. After all, he was king, he had some brain. (laughs) So he wanted to brainwash, "Don't think of Him very seriously. A beggar. Some people, sentimental." "No, don't say like that. A beggar is never followed by so many men." The same thing happened to Jesus. Because so many people would follow him, the government became very . . . Yes. That, what do you call it? Crucified him? Yeah. He was becoming very popular. So . . . And at least according to Bible, it appeared that the Jewish priests, they went to the governor or the chief man at that time, and they demanded that he has to do something about this man. They have proposed it. That Houston politician, "It is spreading like epidemic." Hmm? (aside) Come. "It is spreading like epidemic. Something must be done." Otherwise one day they'll capture our government." That's a fact. If so many young men join this movement, they will vote. Because your country is democratic. (conchshell blows) Do this what I suggested. Yeah. You see them . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) "What is this pressure?" "Sir is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (laughter) And very bad." Some day somebody says: "No, it is good." (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa pressure. That pressure is being felt. *Cap tar porche. Cap porlei bat bolbe . . . ar ta na hole ke kar katha bole? (He is getting pressure. If he gets pressure then he will talk . . . otherwise who cares for whom?) Otherwise, who cares for whom? There are so many things. Here also, they are feeling the pressure, the so*-called svāmīs , yogīs , gosvāmīs , religious groups, Māyāvādīs . . . Communists. Eh? Communists, too. Communists. That is our success. Everyone is now feeling the pressure. Cap. (Pressure.) and they are talking Baat, (Talk.) In such a short time, so much money, so much expansion, so many devotees, what is this? That is Kṛṣṇa. Like Vāmanadeva expanded His foot, and He covered the . . . (laughs) Yes. First people thought, "Oh these are crazy fellows," and now suddenly they are everywhere. Amader onek baro baro sob professional ra boleche sob. (All the professionals said this about us.) Almost all of them, doctor, who have spoken. You have read that? Yes, I have read. All respectable. Indian and American, all learned scholars, they have spoken. Where is that statement given? And Dr. Shaligram, he has spoken very nice. Where is that? Dr. Shaligram, Indian Professor, anthropology or something like that. So now better to see the movement from behind, who is that man behind it. (laughter) Now they're looking for you. That British government said: "Gandhi in jail is more dangerous than he is free." (laughter) These are the statements. Hmm. Dr. Shaligram? Yeah, Dr. Shaligram Shukla. Hmm. Education: he graduated from the University of Cambridge and a B.A. in Classical Languages 1962. Graduated from Cornell University, Ithaca, New York, in Tibetan Linguists and he has a Ph.D. in Linguistics. Cambridge? *He has several . . . he has several books out. "He was born in India in a traditional brāhmaṇa family. He learned Sanskrit at the age of 10, and his knowledge of the Hindu scriptures written in Sanskrit is very profound. He has committed to memory the entire Bhagavad*-gītā scripture and one fourth of the Ṛg Veda . He himself is a worshiper of Kṛṣṇa. His teachings is a way of life, and he is extremely competent to judge whether the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is authentic and bona fide." He came to see you in Washington. Hmm. *So this was his statement, "There are eighteen chapters in Bhagavad*-gītā , eighteen thousand verses in the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam and several hundred verses in the Upaniṣads. These are the literary works which form the foundation of Indian culture and religion. They are all in Sanskrit. His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, has transcribed these texts, has translated them and has explained their essence in English . . . from Sanskrit into English. One is an ancient classical language and the other a foreign language, a difficult task indeed. I have state . . ." (break) *Brahman means unlimited happiness. Ananta brahma*-saukyam ananta suddhyed sattvam yasmād suddhyed satya . You purify your existence and you are hankering after happiness, you'll get the unlimited, greatest happiness, yasmād brahma-saukyam anantam . Hmm. So Dr. Allen Gerson says: "I am here today as a citizen who dislikes injustice, as a person whose own people, because of their religious beliefs, are being persecuted repeatedly, and as a scientist who knows how ignorance can turn the normal rationality of people into blind hatred." He's Jewish. "As a citizen I can see a great injustice perpetrated here. Several people, all of legal age, have chosen a lifestyle which, because it differs in form from our lifestyle, has been viewed by their families as unacceptable. These families, with honest but misguided intentions, have had their children removed from the Hare Kṛṣṇa temple and have attempted to reprogram them to the behavior and attitudes of society at large. The reprogramming obviously did not work, and their children returned to the movement, thus angering and frustrating their parents. Not being able to understand the wishes of their children, or their behavior, or their motivation for returning, and needing to blame someone, they effected through devious means to have two members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." He has used very nice strong words. *Hmm. "They effected through devious means to have two members of the New York Hare Kṛṣṇa centers to be arrested. Therein lies the inception of the injustice. To compound it, a judge and a grand jury agreed with their charges of unlawful imprisonment and brainwashing—a charge which is unheard of to my knowledge in civil legal proceedings—and ordered the devotees to be jailed. As a citizen I am appalled by the over*-reaction, the lack of understanding and the hate that finds wrongdoing not only by the people that make the charges, but by the court as well." He says the same thing. Hmm? That this charge is unheard of in the legal history, brainwashing and . . . what was it? Brainwashing what? Brainwashing. That there was never such a charge in the history of law, someone who's been brainwashed. (continues reading) "As a person whose own people have been persecuted for their own beliefs, I can sympathize with any . . ." You can charge anyone, brainwashing. Yeah. That means anybody who does anything is being brainwashed . . . (indistinct) . . . brainwashing. (continues reading) "The fault of this religion differs from our . . ." Mind control. Yes. These are charges? (laughter) "I'm controlling your mind," charges. No, you are controlling my mind. These are the charges. (chuckles) He's controlling his mind. (laughter) (continues reading) "The fault of this religion differs from our Western thought. Throughout history the group tried to find God through beliefs other than those which were held by the majority, and if those beliefs were very different from the majority's, such beliefs were almost always . . ." (indistinct) . . . their arguments so strong. Unbeatable debaters. Eh? Yeah, and their theories were that because . . . because they are . . . they have accepted Your Divine Grace as the absolute authority, that they will do anything that you say, and therefore these people are very dangerous. They don't care for anything. They're not interested in the normal standards and goals . . . Charmistic, charmistic . . . what is that? Charismatic. Charismatic. Charismatic. There is . . . they usually use this word to describe a person who attracts people, but no one can understand why. Therefore they cannot explain: brainwash, mind control, charismatic, like that they use. Yeah, he says that here, because of their own ignorance then they find fault. He goes on, "From this misunderstanding came fear, then hatred, and from hatred grew injustices and often atrocities. An injustice is now being perpetrated through ignorance. Are atrocities far off? This may sound like an overstatement, but for those who say: 'It can't happen here,' it already has, such as to the American Indians and to our people, Japanese descendant. The time to stop such action is at the beginning, now. The way to stop it is to replace ignorance with knowledge, and hatred with understanding. Sometimes people stand off at a distance and look at another person's belief and laugh at them or fear them. But as they get closer, they may come to understand how similar the observer's beliefs may be to their own beliefs. As a scientist, a psychologist, I have tried to learn about and understand the Hare Kṛṣṇa people. For nearly a year I have spent hours each week talking with, reading about, and testing members of the movement. I have been to their temples in this country and in Europe. I have eaten in their homes and I have been to their children's schools. What I have found is a group of people trying to find God and live as close to the way that He would like them to live. There is no place in their lives for immorality, for cruelty to other people or animals, for artificial stimulants or harmful chemicals such as alcohol, drugs or tobacco. At first glance their approach to God may seem alien to us, with their different dress, the incense and the many statues and their unique ceremonies, but a closer look reveals similarities to our religious practices that are just the same. In Catholicism we find the holy water, chanting on the rosary, statues of saints and incense. And in Judaism we find the blowing of the shofar." And they say the cow's urine, they are forcing to eat. (laughter) Eta holo pancamrta te, gow mutro dite hoy. Seta heading dicche ye, (In pancamrita you have to mix cow's urine, so they made a headline of it) . . . that they are forcing the devotees to drink cow's urine. (laughter) These are the charges: brainwash, mind control, forcing cow's urine to drink. (laughter) How clever they are to find out some fictitious faults. You see, you see they have . . . they put these two boys in a mental institution. Yes. When they can't . . . this is what happens in these countries. When they can't find any legal point, they can put the person into a mental institution to be examined. The premise is that if we find that a person is drinking cow's urine, we may think he must be crazy, because we have never heard of such a thing. So in this way they can . . . Commit them. Yeah, they commit them . . . Forcibly they just put them into a mental institution where they're observed. *Where they . . . that observation, so*-called observation, means that they give them all kinds of drugs which make them very dopey, and then they influence them to try to become normal again, what they think is normal. Sometimes they give them electric shocks, which leaves them . . . In the lunatic asylum. Yeah, which leaves them in a very shocked condition, and then they, what they call reprogram them. That means they brainwash them back into another way, to another style of life, like that. Eirakam! Prabhupada! (They like this Prabhupāda.) Kare ekhane, Ranchi te kare. (Yes, they like this in Ranchi.) *So it goes on, (continues reading) "In Judaism we find the blowing of the shofar, or ram's horn, and in the Orthodox synagogue there is separation of men and women. Differences of dress are expressed amongst Orthodox Jews and amongst various Christian orders. Our own Pilgrim ancestors differed in dress from the Popish gentry of their time. I have studied and tested the Hare Kṛṣṇa people and have not found them to be weird or insane, only different from the mainstream. Like any other evangelical or proselytizing religion, their converts could only become converts if they choose to believe. For example, no one can drag a person to a Baptist Church and brainwash him into taking God into his heart. He has to want to accept willingly. No one is ever held against their will by the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. I have never seen it, nor have my colleagues ever seen it. In examining the various members of this religion, I have not found one who appears to be brainwashed or dopey*-like. In fact their mental health and normality astounds me. If you cannot accept Kṛṣṇa, God, they will sympathize with you and hope that you will eventually find Him and will wish you well as you go on your way. There have been devotees who have left the movement and have said negative things about it, but the sour grapes syndrome is not unusual for dropouts anyway. I wonder how many West Point dropouts vilify the Army, or how many seminary dropouts leave and disdain their religion? After a rational person spends time with the Hare Kṛṣṇa people and learns to understand them, he could never believe them to be guilty of the charges which have been made here in New York recently." That's all right, positive. And then this is Dr. Stillson Judah. Hmm. He's a graduate from University of Washington, majoring in Oriental Studies, graduate from University of California with a Ph.D in Sanskrit and Indian Languages, and he received an honorary degree from Chapman College, Southern California. And he has various posts as professor of history of religion, etc . . . He has written about us big book. Yeah. Big book. Bring that, bring that book. After five years' scrutinizingly studying, statistics, graphics. And he has put my picture in it. Looks like your book. . . . (indistinct) O ki bolche sunun. (Listen to what he has to say.) Dr. Stillson Judah says: "The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, and more formally the International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, ISKCON, is a Western representation of an important Hindu sect, Vaiṣṇavism . . ." He says: "Important Hindu sect." How they can say whether it is a genuine? Important. Not only genuine but important, Vaiṣṇavism. *Hmm. (continues reading) ". . . whose worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, in one of His many forms is one of the most important religions of India. The American devotees of ISKCON worship Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Being, the highest Personality of Godhead, whose worship, according to the archaeological and epigraphic evidence, is pre*-Christian in origin, as found in India's early sacred texts, the Ṛg Veda , Atharva Veda , etc. The detailed history of Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is found in the religious text of the Bhāgavata Purāṇa , and the philosophical basis of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is found in India's most sacred book, the Bhagavad-gītā . These sacred texts and others have been translated and commented upon by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda and are being studied today in many major universities across the United States. The particular form of Vaisnavism of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement dates from Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, one of India's saints born in 1486 A.D. in Nadia, India. His immediate followers organized this philosophy in a number of Sanskrit texts, and His religious practices, such as chanting and dancing, are most authentically represented in America by the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees according to this tradition. Lord Caitanya, worshiped as the last incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, initiated a disciplic succession. In the mid nineteenth century, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura appeared in this spiritual lineage. Soon afterwards, his son Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, became the spiritual master of India's Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, and his most prominent student was Śrīla Prabhupāda. It was at Bhaktisiddhānta's command that Śrīla Prabhupāda later came to America to bring the teachings and practices of Caitanya to the West. My study of these American devotees, which I have pursued since 1968, was published in my book, Hare Krishna and the Counterculture, published by John Wiley and Sons in 1974, New York. The sociological data, revealed through a detailed questionnaire and many hours of taped interviews, indicates that many of the devotees had been influenced by the hippie culture of the 1960s. However, after they joined the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, their lives became completely changed from a life of drugs, illicit sex and violence to one of dedication to a spiritual discipline and morality and to helping others in their search for happiness. In this period of rapid social and cultural change . . ." This is the fact, in many cases. So many drunkards, so many violence . . . that . . . (name withheld) (name withheld) Big drunkard. Yeah. (name withheld) Hmm. (continues reading) "In this period of rapid social and cultural change, this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is giving many of our youths new meaning to their lives, without which many would have remained alienated, disenchanted, irresponsible citizens." This is a letter that was written by one devotee, Śravaṇānanda dāsa, by his mother. Śravaṇānanda is here in India. Shall I read this? Can read it, yes. My son Daniel, Śravaṇānanda dāsa, entered the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement almost five years ago. The only request that he made of me and my husband was that we read about the Hare Kṛṣṇa philosophy and try to understand his new way of life. My husband and I have read everything we could find about the movement and the philosophy. We have visited the Hare Kṛṣṇa centers in Philadelphia and New York frequently, always speaking to the devotees and having our questions answered. Evidently these youths feel a revulsion towards the sense gratification of forbidden . . . permissive values of our society. When I see how happy the devotees are . . ." Haṁsadūta, Haṁsadūta? Haṁsadūta? The Ceylon is an educated, and if they are receiving, why not open a branch? (continues reading) "He recently returned home after almost three years in India. My husband and I could see the awareness and maturity in him gained from his experiences in working with the Indian people. He learned firsthand about a different culture, and it certainly has enriched his life. In our minds we can compare our son's life to the life of a Catholic monk or a religious Jew of the Hasidic sect. Do I think that my son is brainwashed? I can best answer this by answering the question, is our whole society not being brainwashed daily by the advertisement media—liquor, smoking, pornographic movies and literature? And which is worse? And what about the children who are being educated by the violence and killing on T.V.? I prefer that my son is devoting his life to the love of God and the service of humanity, a rare endeavor in this age. Since I know that my son has voluntarily chosen the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement to exercise these rights, and that he can leave it whenever he wishes, I cannot see how the term 'brainwashing' can be applicable to this movement. I sincerely believe from my contacts with many devotees that they are happy and have found fulfillment by loving and serving Lord Kṛṣṇa, God. This may not be my wish for my life, but my son has chosen it for his, and I wholeheartedly respect it." . . . (indistinct) Yes. (pause) Eibar, apnar ki ektu bhalo lagche? (Is your health okay now?) Kalker ceye bhalo. Ekhane ekta (Better than yesterday. Here one) . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct) Jela oi Nadiai, Yekhane Pagla Babar ashram hoyeche na! (District is Nadia, where the Pagla Baba's ashrama is.) Hya, hya, hya. (Yes, yes, yes.) Oikhane. (There.) Ami giyechilam. Sekhane ektu anyarakam jinis patra ache. (I went there. Some other types of things present there.) *Hmm, go*-sala ache, goru ekta ache. (a cowshed is there, and a cow as well.) Goru ekta! (A cow.) *Hya, bais bachor pac cha*-mas . . . (Yes not too old, only 22 years and 5 to 6 months . . .) (indistinct) . . . mandirer janye, utpadan er janye. (providing for the temple.) Manage korechi eikhane, jayga to gelei paoa yay. (Wherever we will go we can get a place, we have to manage here.) (indistinct) . . . sambhabana, erom hoyar ucit o. (possibility, and that must be done.) *Choto*-khato onek boi beriyeche amader samparke. (There are many small books published about us.) *Hm, choto*-khato. (small books.) Ar er boi to . . . (And this book is . . .) (indistinct) . . . (end) Conversation A -- November 2, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation on New York court case) So a lot of these parents are saying that we should all be . . . we should be investigated. Now they are saying that we are not Hindus, and they are saying that by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the thinking of the brain stops. Hmm. So in New York the press is against us. But in Los Angeles it is going in our favor, he said (referring to report by Rāmeśvara). In Los Angeles they had kidnapped the best girl distributor. Now she has come back, but, ah . . . So these things will happen. Yes. They are, as soon as we become very important, our enemies, they will try to suppress us. This is what they are doing. So that is natural. Even Kṛṣṇa was suppressed. Kṛṣṇa could not be suppressed, but the attempt was there, Kamsa. So these things go on, still we have to work. Yes. If we work sincerely then we'll come out successful. So there are a few things . . . We should not be afraid. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara ( BG 8.7). Kṛṣṇa advised Arjuna that "You fight," not that we shall not fight. We shall fight to the best . . . (indistinct) . . . and this is good, they are feeling the pressure of this movement. Otherwise, why they are going to take step? But they, what they do . . . these parents, what they want to do, they want this to be declared illegal. Now they . . . Illegal . . . they can, the children can also, those who are our children they can form an association. Yes. But they cannot control us, our independence. Yes. They should form. How the . . .? But of course, we want to defeat them . . . The parents, the parents cannot control their sons and daughters who is above eighteen. We want to defeat these people legally, because now it's a very big case and every paper in America is covering it. Every paper. That means they're feeling pressure. They're feeling pressure. Now we should take proper steps, that's all. They had a big press conference in which Professor Shukla spoke up . . . Hmm. He has spoken very nicely. Rāmeśvara said that he got up and he said: "How can . . . you are insulting our religion, saying we are not . . ." Yes. Yes, better that the Indians should combine and they should bring a case against these people. Yes. And then it will be all right. That "This is, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is genuine, and these people are trying to insult us." Bring a defamation case against these persons. I think the best thing is to mobilize all the Indians in America, because every country . . . *Yes, that I have already suggested, that they should take signature from all Indians that "this is genuine Indian cultural movement, and it a great fortune for Indians. They were bereft of their own culture and now we have got this culture again. The Ratha*-yātrā is going on, we are so much enlivened." In this way they should file petition. *Just like in England they would not let you do the Ratha*-yātrā, the Indians . . . Ah. This is discrimination against sect . . . Against minority. Yes. Against minority. And no government in the world wants to do that. It is against American constitution. So they should file immediately a case. And America is very sensitive to . . . So you note down. You are simply hearing. Note down and inform them. Yes. Ah, it is being recorded, that's all right. So give them this direction. Combine the Indian community. In Toronto and in . . . there are many thousands of Indians, New York, Canada, London. These are very important places. Yes, we can do that. *Yes, many thousands and thousands of important Indians, very rich men there are. In London there are very rich Indians. They can form immediately a solid association. They should present that, "This Kṛṣṇa is our God. In every Indian home we observe Kṛṣṇa Janmāṣṭamī." Even though one does not follow Kṛṣṇa cult, still if he is Hindu he follows the Janmāṣṭamī. Inevitably, everywhere. So this Kṛṣṇa cult is genuine, Vedic, based on Bhagavad*-gītā , which was spoken long, long years ago before any religion . . . any religious literature in the world. The Buddha literature or the Christian literature and Jewish literature, they cannot be counted more than two thousand years. A little more than that. But this Kṛṣṇa cult is coming, it is coming from, I have already explained in the Introduction, it is coming from four hundred millions of years ago. But even from historically, it is five thousand years—beyond all religious literature in the world. We have to present this case in the court. And let it be discussed thorough . . . yes, and see our books, compare any religious books with our these books. Present all the opinions of big, big professors how traditional Indian culture is there. You have to fight, organize. Give them hint, this. Yes. *How they can defeat us? We have got so solid ground. How they can defeat, these rascals? We consider them simply rascals and fools. And we call them rascals and fools. What do they know of religion? What do they know of God? They know slaughterhouse and killing and illicit sex, and killing the fetus. That's all. What do they know? They are not even civilized. We have come to make them civilized. They should understand. They are not civilized. They do not how to eat even. The first principle of life is eating. They do not know how to eat. We are teaching them how to eat. They simply challenge, like that. When men are uncivilized, they do not how to grow food, they kill animals in the jungle and eat. When they are civilized, they know how to grow food now, and the nice food grains, fruit, flowers, now why should say, "You eat the meat"? The meat*-eating is meant for the most uncivilized persons. That means they do not know even how to eat. They do not know how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex. Nothing. They're having sex like cats and dogs. No marriage—girl's friend, boy's friend, and then illegitimate . . . so many things. They should be exposed. *And there is no harm exposing, in truth. Simply by manufacturing, constructing a big, high skyscraper building, does it mean he is civilized? It is passionate work. They can take credit of a good mistrī, just like so many mistrīs, they construct. I cannot do. Does it mean I am less than him? I could not construct this temple. I have to call some low class, a builder and company, they constructed. Does it meant he is higher in intelligence than me? They are giving credit, "Oh, now they have constructed skyscraper building. They have constructed motorcar, horseless carriage." They are taking credit on this. But this is not civilization. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has given the formula of civilization, three words: mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu . Where is that civilization, to consider every woman as mother? Except one's own married wife, all women, mother. Where is that civilization? That should be; *otherwise there cannot be social regulation. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu para dravyeṣu loṣṭravat : others' property is just like garbage in the street. Nobody touches the garbage. That is civilization. So Mr. Pillai . . . (break) . . . got to do. He wants members of parliament to give . . . Hmm. That we have already suggested. Immediately. Every member of . . . if Mr . . . Krishna Modi. . . . Brahmānanda . . . Reddy. . . . he suggested that this movement should be spread all over the world. Let him write. Yes. He won't give it in writing. No. That is his insincerity. Frankly, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no member of parliament will give it either. I know it, because even when Tejiyas was applying for his citizenship, Krishna Modi would not even give a letter of recommendation because he said this is a Congress Party policy. Then what can be done? Everything is nasty. Yes. So this is what we'll do. We'll be starting a . . . You can give the names. There are so many members. Yes. We are starting a petition here also. Not only petition. You can give the . . . ask what is this . . . (indistinct) . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And also . . . If there is . . . now Brahmānanda has at least given this order that they should be given two . . . that they be allowed to stay two years. That letter is there. Yes. I have that letter. That letter says they have come to study Vedic literature. Yes. That letter is there. Also we have a lot of other letters from great . . . The Indians should send a petition to the government, that "We want this movement here. We are separated from our culture. A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami has brought this . . ." They say mobilizing the Indians in America . . . Yes. . . . and that's most important thing because . . . Yes. That is a most important thing, that you cannot discriminate minority communities. That is against American constitution. Prabhupāda, when this . . . when we had a similar situation in Germany, what we wanted to do is have all our centers in important cities in foreign countries all over the world make a letter and a delegation to visit the United States Embassy in all these places. This will have an effect, because if it's brought, if it comes in this way, international reaction . . . Yes, arrange like this. We're going to send . . . Rāmeśvara suggested we send a big petition of telegrams to the American Consulate. Because then American Consulate will transmit these telegrams to the State Department in Washington. We said that if our . . . we would pay for it, but our Life Members will all sign if we send a telegram to the American . . . Hmm, Dr. Shaligram taken a leading part? Who? Dr. Shaligram Shukla. Shaligram Shukla. In America? Yes. He is a learned scholar, and he is influential man in educational circles. There are many Indians you'll find, they are . . . So we can mobilize all the Indians. That's the best process. Yes, Indian opinion. I have already given suggestion to. The Indians should come forward. And from here also, similar, if the member . . . (indistinct) . . . know. Respectable Indian businessmen, they should say that, "This Kṛṣṇa cult is very, very old, genuine, and we are so enlightened that Swami Bhaktivedanta has taken this movement to the foreign countries. We are so proud," like that. Yes. We want to do that. And that is a fact. Everyone is feeling proud. Take all signature of the gosvāmīs here, influential, that "This is genuine." Prove there, that it is genuine movement. And we have letters from Swami Premananda and all the . . . (indistinct) . . . and all these letters from Bombay. I'm shipping all these to Rāmeśvara. Yes, everyone should join. Now people are taking this cultural movement so seriously, and if our Indian leaders sleep, that is not good. Actually, I have . . . one boy in Delhi went to the British Embassy High Commission and bought a British paper, and even in the British paper the American court case was covered. Headline was "Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." I have the paper. Even in the British paper it had a prominent display. Normally you would expect . . . Probably be in German papers too . . . Yes. In fact you would probably expect that . . . British paper. What does it say? They were covering this court case. They had a nice prominent . . . No, no. They have taken it. Now, they are after intelligent person. They are . . . that has been expressed by this gentleman that, "It is going like epidemic." They must expect. That is their feeling, that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading so fast, like epidemic, we must take some step." That is already, they have expressed their feeling. And you said that in Australia, there one man said . . . Yes, psychiatrist. . . . that if the people take to this movement, then where you stand? He has also expressed. What is that? *There's a psychiatrist, after the Sydney City Council are trying to have us banned from the city altogether, and they took us to court, and we didn't contest the case and they lost. And then afterwards they . . . it worked out they spent $10,000 and so much manpower to try to get rid of us, and it didn't work. And then one newspaper man went to a psychiatrist and he asked him, "Can you explain why this huge reaction against just a few people singing and dancing in the street?" So he said basically it's because the city*-dwellers feel very threatened by our simple lifestyle. Yes. Just see. So this whole Western civilization is threatened. They are afraid of the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. *Yes. Their whole economic structure will fail. Theoretically, take it for granted that if people give up meat*-eating . . . No smoking, no drinking. *. . . then whole civilization finished. Even theoretically taken, no smoking, no gambling, no intoxication, no illicit sex, their whole civilization is finished. Lord Zetland said . . . not only that, one Sir Valentine Chirol, I think, Sir Valentine Chirol, British, important, when Gandhi started non*-cooperation. So he remarked that, "If Gandhi's movement, this non-cooperation movement, is one percent successful, then we will have to leave it." And actually that happened. Because they were ruling over India by Indian cooperation. So Gandhi struck to the right point, non-cooperation, and he scented the danger, and he remarked in that time that if one percent Indian people non-cooperate, then we are . . . our British Empire finished. So there are intelligent persons, they are thinking in their own way that, "This movement is so strong against this modern material civilization, if it is allowed to spread then our whole civilization, whole economic structure will be finished." What they're doing now, these parents are getting . . . contacting devotees who have blooped, and they're getting these devotees to make statements against us. *Just see. They are living peacefully in a villa in Paris so happily that, ah . . . some . . . one gentleman came to see me, "Swamiji, you are preaching against meat*-eating. This cannot be done in this country, then we will starve." I said: "No, you will never starve. You take this formula." (laughs) So they are thinking like that. Yes. And the most dangerous point is that young men are taking part. The future of the country. *Yes. That means it will continue. Young men, they take anything very seriously. So this movement is threatening the—what is called?—foundation of material civilization in the Western countries. That's a fact. The foundation is threatened. Their whole foundation is this: meat*-eating, illicit sex, gambling and intoxication. They have no other formula. Lord Zetland, when he was asking one of my Godbrothers that, "Can you make me Brahmin ?" So "Yes, why not? You follow." He said: "It is impossible for us. It is impossible for us. And we are no one." That's a fact. If some percentage of the population, European and American population, take it seriously, then it will be dangerous for their government, their economic situation, that's a fact. That, our Sudāmā Vipra is saying that, theatrical . . . Sudāmā Swami is in New York. Sudāmā Mahārāja. Hah! And whole situation is threatened, Caitanya Mahāprabhu movement. Have you seen that? That play. Play? Kali. Age of Kali. Yes. The purport of the play is that this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is threatening to all the associates of pāpa . (break) *He, Rāmeśvara told me last night, is completely against these so*-called religious movements like our, and he has written personal letters to the parents of all the people who have joined, all those who would write to him, that these types of movements should be stopped. The young men should form another party, all the American young men. Viṣṇu party. Hmm. Viṣṇu party. Yes. Now they should take in politics. You wrote in your Eighth Canto, there are always two parties: the Viṣṇu party and the demons' party. Yes. If they're forming demons' party, let them . . . Form a Viṣṇu party. That, ah, the fight between the Viṣṇu party and the demon party is always going on. Well they could never stop it, I mean. They could just make some difficulty, that's all. *No. It is in the hands of the young men. It is not possible for them to stop it. If it had been a sentiment of some retired, just like other thing, that Vivekananda's, all these old fools and rascals, they assemble and meditate. It is not that. They are active. It is not so*-called meditation, and snoring, (makes snoring sound) meditating. It is not that. I have seen, all these rascals go, yogīs , they prescribe meditation, and meditation means sleeping and snoring, that's all. It is not that movement. We are sending, inducing, "Come, sell books." It is no question of meditation. Cheating himself and cheating others. What he will meditate? And he requires so many primary rules and regulations before meditating, not that . . . in the Bhagavad-gītā , for meditation it is clearly stated one should not close the eyes. As soon as you close the eyes and meditate, you will sleep. Immediately. It is . . . they should be half closed, and concentrate your eyesight on the top of the nose. That is meditation. Not that closing and snoring and "huh." Anyway, these rascals, they are going on. Who cares for the genuine thing? Nobody cares. Dharma . . . (indistinct) . . . that "I am your guru , I have followers," dharma principle, but he does not know anything. This is going on. Neither the rascal guru knows, neither his disciple knows. This is the position. Everywhere this is going on. All bluff. This very word used, a dharma . . . (indistinct) . . . get a plaque, that "I am . . . (indistinct) . . ." That's all. And hang it, that's all, and do nothing, that's all. "I do not know nothing, but I have the plaque," that's all. All these gurus , all these chelas are doing that. This Anandamayi, Sai Baba, this, that, so many. What do they know? That is why these leaders are getting confused, so many bogus people are there. Yes. That should . . . action should be there. If we come out successful in this, how you say, messing, and that will be very good. It is called that, messing? Mixing. Mixing. Not mixing. Punching together. Messing, that what is called? Chaduni? What is called? Sifting? Sifting, yes. (coughing) It is called not messing also? Hmm. Sifting high grains from the small. Yes. Hmm. Hmm. The smaller grains, they fall down. Oh, straining. Straining, yes. Straining, yes, straining. If the straining process, no, that's nice. Yes, they can get rid of all the bad ones just like in the rice field. The good ones . . . (indistinct) . . . every newspaper in America is covering us, Rāmeśvara said. Good advertisement. I was seeing that. And every page Kṛṣṇa, there is Kṛṣṇa. Every page there is Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, that happened in Germany. I told them, "It is very good that Hare Kṛṣṇa." . . . (indistinct) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughing) We are known as Kṛṣṇas. They call us Kṛṣṇas. You put yourselves "Kṛṣṇians." They are Christians and we are Kṛṣṇians. And actually from Kṛṣṇian, the "Christian" has come. Yes. Kṛṣṇa, ah, Christo, there is a word, Greek word, and Christo is broken spelling of Kṛṣṇa. In India we say one is . . . one name say is Kṛṣṇa, at least in Bengali we say Kṛṣṭa. Kṛṣṭa. This Kṛṣṭa word is from Kṛṣṇa. And from Kṛṣṭa, Christ has come. This is original root, Kṛṣṇa. So we have to fight. Here is a chance for fighting, so why they're afraid? No, we just have to work hard on getting everything coordinated. *You have to fight, keeping our principles strictly. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). We should not be afraid to fight. And it is . . . there are Indians . . . it is not the Indians cooperating. Now Indians and Americans should join for fighting on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be successful. How they can say it is not genuine movement? Other so*-called yogīs , svāmīs , they may be rascal, but this is not the rascaldom. It is . . . They are saying . . . they are saying we are not Hindus. Hmm? They are saying this is not Hinduism. Hindus . . . we are Kṛṣṇian. It they, if . . . Kṛṣṇans. *Kṛṣṇa, in the dictionary it is said that Hindu God, but we are claiming, that Kṛṣṇian, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means "Godder than the Hindus." When you say we are not Hindu, that we are not restricted with the Hindi community. That is the meaning. Because Kṛṣṇa says, "I am for everyone." So why should we be restricted to the Hindi community? Kṛṣṇa says sarva yoniṣu, "In all forms of life, I am the seed giving father." Why He should be simply Hindu? This point should be stressed. Sarva yoni means eighty*-four million . . . eighty, eighty, 8,400,000s, all forms. Kṛṣṇa is for all of them. We therefore, why Kṛṣṇa should be restricted to the Hindu community? Hindus are included, but Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to Hindus. Kṛṣṇa's picture, that Bāla Gopāla, He's embracing the calves. Kṛṣṇa does not embrace only the gopīs, He's embracing the calves also. That is Kṛṣṇa. He's equal to everyone. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonayaḥ , so many low-grade forms of life, they're also His . . . devotees are part and parcel. Mamaivāṁśo jī . . . (BG 15.7). Quote this: Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to the Hindu. We say, "We are not Hindu," means we are not . . . we embrace everyone. We are not restricted to the Hindus. The so-called Christians, so-called Muhammadans, they . . . we embrace everyone. *And actually we are doing that. Why should we simply be compact within the limitation of Hindus? That is not our purpose. Then we would not have come to Western countries. We actually spreading universal brotherhood. Kṛṣṇa is the father and everyone our brother. We are claiming all our fallen brothers to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu: pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). This is our movement. Why you should be restricted to the India, and amongst the Hindus? Our Gods, They asked that "Go, go," bhārata bhūmite : you have taken birth in India, that's all right, make your life successful and go abroad, para upakāra. Janma sārthaka kori koro para-upakāra . This is our mission. We have come to you to make you civilized. This is our mission. And the best men of your country they are recommending. All the learned circle, they are coming. How can you defy us? If you have got brain . . . you are trying to brainwash. Actually you have no brain to . . . (indistinct) . . . how important it is, this movement. You are trying to brainwash. We are not brainwashing. We are giving you good brain. That is our mission, that you are so dull-headed we have come to give you good brain. Su-medhasaḥ . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). We have come to make you intelligent. Receive us well, for your benefit. Tell them like that. Bring one court case, and I shall sit . . . go and sleep there, and expose them, item by item. I know my case is strong. It's the strongest. (laughing) Yes. I will speak. If you cannot speak, I shall go and speak. There are a few Indians, I was just thinking, in America who are right at the top of the American scientific research. There is one Dr. Khorana, he won the Nobel Prize, and there are a few others who are right at the top of the . . . Where he is? Where he is? All in America. They're at the top of the US space program. I think we should also approach these people who are . . . (indistinct) . . . Punjabis. Yes. He won the Nobel Prize, you know. But I just remembered that there are few other Indians who are at the top of the US space program, so if we approach them . . . Now our this Svarūpa Dāmodara and others, they can also come. We should approach all these people and get them to take part in the petition. *That Bhavan's Journal, he did not dare to publish my statement. Everyone is combined to kill Kṛṣṇa. Everyone, all over the world. God . . . "There is no God," the scientists, these philosophers, the politicians—everyone. This is the only movement talking of God. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādī . Everywhere, impersonalists and zero: "There is no God." The zero- vādīs , they are little frank, but these rascals, nirviśeṣavādīs , "God has no head, no tail," they are dangerous. Zero- vādīs , they call Him zero, that's all right. That is . . . we can understand, they admit. But these rascals, zero . . . nirviśeṣavādīs, "Yes, there is God, but He has no head, He has no tail, He has no hand, He has no leg." Then what He has? They are greatest cheater, more dangerous than the śūnyavādīs. That is the version of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Vedinām mayima bhogda hoila nāstik , vedāśraya nāstikavāda bhogda ki hodi . These Buddhists, they do not care for the Vedic injunction, we can understand. But these Śankarites, they take shelter of the Vedas and they say: "There is no form of God." And that is being followed, the so*-called Hindus. All the invitees in that meeting, Bajaj meeting, they are all nirviśeṣvādī . Impersonalists. All impersonal. That's why there may be a problem in getting Indian people to support our movement. Hmm? If there is any trouble in getting Indians . . . *No, we don't care for Indians and Europeans. We care for Kṛṣṇa, that's all. I didn't care for anyone. I simply care for Kṛṣṇa, that's all. And my Guru Mahārāja, that's all. I went to your country not supported by Indians and Europeans. I went on the order of my Guru Mahārāja and under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa's protection, that's all. That is wanted. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). We want two favors: one from guru , one from Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want anyone's favor. So you have to fight. You cannot fight immaterialists. Kṛṣṇa never said, "Arjuna, oh, you are My devotee, you sit down and sleep, I shall take care of . . ." He never said that. (laughs) So if you take that position, "We are devotees, nonviolent, and let us sleep," that is not . . . fight, with all the resources that we have got. That is wanted. That you cannot stop. (loud voices in background) They are coming, going, how you can stop? People, public, they are coming, going here. They all want to come and have a look at the guesthouse. *That's all right. So prepare for fight. Don't be afraid. Arjuna, they were five brothers, and the other party, one hundred brothers. Therefore Dhṛtarāṣṭra was confident, that "What are these five brothers without any help? We have ruined them. They were in the forest for thirteen years, lost all connection, no kingdom. I have got government in hand, and my sons are . . . hundred sons, and we are well equipped. How . . .?" Therefore the . . . bring that Bhagavad*-gītā , dṛṣṭvā tu pāṇḍavāṇīkam (BG 1.2). Dṛṣṭvā tu pāṇḍavāṇīkaṁ vyūḍhaṁ duryodhanas tadā . If someone wants to come, let him come. Ācāryam . . . Why you have refused him? Let him come. Ācāryam upasaṅgamya rājā vacanam abravīt (BG 1.2). Yes. What is the translation? "Sañjaya said, 'O King, after looking over the army gathered by the sons of Pāṇḍu, King Duryodhana went to his teacher and began to speak the following words.' " Aiye, aiye. (Please come, please come.) (guests arrive) (break) Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is to preach. So you join us. Why should you be limited within Vṛndāvana? The people are taking this, and there is . . . now they are feeling the strength. The whole world is now combining against this movement. That means they are feeling the strength. Certainly it is not credit. Certainly. *Don't say "certainly." You must come forward to fight. If you simply sit down in Vṛndāvana, then Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is not being carried. He says, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126), that is His mission. So this attempt has been made in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, so why other parties, they should sit down and simply . . .? I am a teeny person, single-handed we shall fight. Why you should see the fun and do not fight? That I am asking you. I shall fight, and you shall see the fun. No, no. What is this? Now, you appear to be educated gentlemen, you combine, all the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava gosvāmīs , and come with me to fight, because there is a world fight now. They are threatened. Their whole civilization is threatened by this movement. That is the position now. Whole Europe and America, they are combining. They are intelligent person, they see that this movement is spreading like epidemic. They have admitted, some of their party, "If this movement is allowed to advance, then some day they will take our government." They have expressed that feeling. And now they are preparing to fight out. These . . . all these fathers of these young men, they are combining together to charge me that I am kidnapping their boys. So it is a serious situation. You should not see simply the fun and claim to belong to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Now you should come out to fight. Am I wrong or right? You are right. *Then do that. Hold a meeting among the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas here, and I will explain the position. Now we should combine together and fight. As soon as you introduce something strong, there will be fight. There will be fight. Even Kṛṣṇa had to see the fight, Kurukṣetra. Dharmakṣetre kurukṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). The fight must be there, yuyutsavaḥ . So if you belong to Caitanya Mahāprabhu's party, then you should come out to fight. Whatever done is done, and it is done single*-handed. Nobody has helped me, even not my Godbrothers. These American boys, they have helped me. They understood the philosophy and they helped me. Rather, they are criticizing that I am making these American boys sannyāsī and giving them sacred thread. They are criticizing. What is your opinion? I don't think that's a . . . (indistinct) They criticize me. They do not recognize this temple as a Vaiṣṇava temple. They say angrej temple. (laughter) (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . there will be whole integration towards Kṛṣṇa. *Yes, yes. Jīvera 'svarūpa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Why they criticize? We are trying that. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Why the pāpa-yonis should be neglected? So this thing have been done single-handed, now you should come forward, all, combine together. Ye aap log acchi tarah se sochiye aur combined hoiye, aaiye hamare saath me. (You people think nicely and combine together, come along with me.) There is a great fight. We are just planning how to fight. Simply katha vachak hone se kya hoga, pet palan ho sakta hai, isme kuch vishesh kaam nahi hai. (What is the use of just being a preacher? You can earn for your stomach, but there is nothing special in this.) Now when there is fight, it requires real strength. Now their fight is confronting us because they are feeling the strength. Their whole civilization is threatened. We are recommending no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling and no meat-eating. But this is the basic principle of modern civilization. So the foundation is threatened. Theoretically they are taking that "If these four things are stopped, then where is our civilization? Where we stand?" Meat-eating, they have all over the world millions of slaughterhouse. So if these millions of slaughterhouse is stopped, then where they stand? They are threatened like that. *Their whole set*-up, their whole economy is being threatened. The millions of liquor manufacturers, breweries, millions of gambling houses, so . . . cigarette factories. So theoretically, if this movement is successful, then whole civilization is finished. So they are now looking . . . because these young men have taken seriously, so they are threatened and they are making a strong party to fight with us. They cannot safely say that against this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement they are threatening a charge against my movement or me that I am kidnapping young men. That is their threatening. I am not kidnapping. I am not going to their house to kidnap. They are coming to us. Ye sab position hai. Aaplog sab Vrndavana me gosai log sab hain, humko thoda sa help kijiye. (This is the position. You all in Vṛndāvana, there are Goswamis also there, help me a little.) *The gosvāmīs, they are śrī*-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau . Now prove. They are descendants. Now prove—come forward. Śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau . Simply sitting at home. And in Bengal there is Nityānanda-vaṁśa . What is Nityānanda-vaṁśa ? Nityānanda went forward before Jagāi-Mādhāi and He was hurt. Blood came out. Where is that Nityānanda- vaṁśa ? Fight between Jagāi-Mādhāi and Nityānanda . . . that is Nityānanda-vaṁśa , simply taking advantage of coming from Nityānanda-vaṁśa , "I have become guru . Give me your money," and sit down. "Let me enjoy life with my wife and children." That kind of Nityānanda-vaṁśa will not help. Come forward to fight. With this fighting is now here. (aside) You can show the newspaper clipping. Bahut big argument ho raha hai. (A big argument is going on to fight this.) First of all they thought that so many svāmīs and yogīs come, all rascals, they stay for some time and go away. Even Vivekananda. (laughter) So this is not a bogus movement, it is taking stand. So now they are threatened and they are combining together, especially the Christian . . . ye dekhiye kitna baseless hai accusation. Just see how baseless is their accusation. But in each heading there is "Kṛṣṇa." (break) . . . bring various charges against our . . . Mind control, brainwashing. *You should go to see Viśvambhara Goswami also. Panch gavya usme cow mutra diya jata hai, to usi ko prominence de raha hai udhar milk hai usko nahi, ye sabse . . . aur sab gavya chod diya, urine ka taste hai ye sab chal raha hai. ye sab bada fight hai aap log aiye, sahyog kijiye. Aaplog jo actual battlefield me jana chahte hain usko hum leke jayenge. Aaplog tayyar hoiye ladai karne ke liye. Aisi baat nahi hai ki hum nahi ja sakte, wo sab hum . . . aaplog jo bheed hai wo sab tayyar hoiye. (In the pancha gavya , cow urine is added, so prominence is being given for that. There is milk from cows, they are not bothered by all this . . . all the other products from cows they have ignored, there is the taste of urine. All this is going on. This is a big fight, you people come and support us. Those of you who want to go to the actual battlefield, we will take you all. You all be prepared to fight. It is not that we cannot go, all that we . . . you as a crowd be prepared.) This is fortunate that you have come in this moment. So I'll give you this inspiration. Now combine together all Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs. Kṛṣṇa cult is for everyone, either Gauḍīya or Rāmānuja or everyone. Now all of you should come forward. That you do. Admitting kijiye, ye sab ho raha hai Krishna conscious movement ko cut down karne ke liye sab combine ho rahe hain. aap kya chahte hain ki hum udhar defeat ho karke vapas laut ke aaye. To aaplog thoda help kijiye. (You admit that all this is going on, they are trying to cut down the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement and they are all combining. What do you want, that we are defeated there and return back? So you people must help.) They are concerned with the Kṛṣṇa cult. Kṛṣṇa cult means all the ācāryas , all the ācāryas , either Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka or anyone, they should combine together. Abhi ghar me baith kar kaam nahi chalega. hamara guru maharaj decide kiya, wo bahut dheet hai kehte hain (Now sitting at home we cannot achieve anything. My Guru Maharaja decided, he is very stubborn, it is said.) Mana! Tumi kiser vaishnav? Pratisthar tare nirjaner ghare tava harinam kebol kaitav. (Mind, what kind of devotee are you? For cheap adoration you are sitting in one solitary room and chanting, is simply cheating.) Do you understand Bengali? (Humare vaishnav hain kahin bahar nahi jate hain aur ghar baithkarke Haridas Thakur ka nakal karte hain. (Our Vaisnavas are there, they don't go out anywhere, and they sit at home and imitate Haridas Thakur.) (aside) Why you are talking? It is not very important. It is for him. It is a very bad habit. So we should be very alert in this point. All the Vaiṣṇavas of different sampradāyas , especially Gauḍīya sampradāya , you should come forward to fight this. They are gathering their strength. We should gather our strength. Fight. Kṛṣṇa never said that "Don't fight." Never said, Arjuna that, "You are My devotee, you don't fight. You are very good gentleman, nonviolent, and I shall do everything for you." Never said that. Kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samu . . . (BG 2.2) Viṣame samupasthitam . "Now there is a great dangerous fight, why you are saying like a nonsense," anārya*-juṣṭam , "like non-Aryan?" To ye fight mauzood hai dekhiye, have prasadam. to aaplog sab aiye, hum to akele hain. (So this fight is present, have prasadam . So you people come together, I am all alone.) This fight is another good news, that they are feeling the strength. Otherwise they would not have prepared to fight. Formerly they were thinking that so many svāmīs and yogīs come, come and go. But now they are feeling the strength, they charging that their young men are being kidnapped. It is strong party. And these boys, they have taken to Vaiṣṇava principles, their parents have tried to take them back and induce them to eat meat and according . . . they deny. This is also tried. I have got many disciples, they are coming out very rich family, rich father. So one of the fathers called his son that "I am old man. The business is dwindling. You come and take . . ." So I told him that, "You go. Why not take your father's business and use it for Kṛṣṇa?" So he went, on my order. The father wanted him to eat meat. So he denied, that "I cannot do that. I can help in your business, but I cannot accept your way of life. That is not possible." Then the father saw, "Then he is lost, useless. If he's not adopting our life . . ." So there, that one father; *now the all fathers have combined, that "Our children are now lost. They do not come home, what to speak of adopting again our way of life." They cannot accept the way of life, meat*-eating and . . . that is not possible. That they're finding dangerous. And other movement they join and they come back. They remain what they are. Simply they say that, "I belong to this grouping." But our is different. Not only he belongs to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, but a different type of life. (reads something) Hmm. Give it. They have taken . . . (indistinct) . . . there are many, many groups like that. This is New York. Chanting in the street. Isko kuch upay kijiye. (Find some solution for this.) What do you want to do? Propose. Hold a meeting of all the Gosvāmīs. You take the leading part. Go to Viśvanātha Goswami. If you like, he can go with you to see others, "This is the position. You come and join." What do they say? I . . . (indistinct) . . . contacted them, call a meeting. Yes. Immediately. How long you are staying here? I will stay if you hold immediately meeting in this temple. We have got enough space here. First of all you see some leading gosvāmī , and then you chalk out how to fight. All the sampra . . . now it is question of Kṛṣṇa cult, it is not only Gauḍīya. So take gosvāmīs , some of you, and meet all the leaders and hold a meeting, immediately arrange. And explain the whole situation. Let us combine. And those who are educated, they should go. We shall arrange for their all expenditure. It doesn't matter. Fight. "This is a genuine cult. If you discriminate, that is discrimination against religion, cult. We are accepting everyone, but it is a genuine cult. You also Christian, you accept anyone; why you say it is not genuine?" That we have to prove. There the Hindus and Indians who are there, they will also join. So immediately hold a meeting. It is very serious situation. Aap leading part lijiye. Aur jo goswami hain, aur sab jo jo hain sab combine hoke chaliye sab apko hum leke jayenge. (You take the leading part. And the Goswamis and others, who are all combined and come with us, we shall take all of you.) This is genuine movement. Why the American government should be discriminating against a genuine religious sect, Kṛṣṇa? Make this company. (aside) Prasāda , give him prasāda . Very seriously deliberate. And you go with him. We have got any car? Not right now. Not at the present moment. (aside) Haṁsadūta's van here? Where our car has gone? Bareilly. They have program in Bareilly. When? Two days ago they went. No, when the program is? Now it's going on. Going on. Mmm. When they will come back? About one week, one and a half weeks. So we can ask them to come back. The car will be required both here and there. Okay. That's easy enough. I can do it. Mmm. Or any other car available? (indistinct) . . . Krishna Chand. No, he doesn't have one. No, Viśvan . . . there is always car. We have the motorcycle. We can arrange elsewhere. It's okay. Hah. So(to sab se miliye. (meet everyone.) He will go with you, immediately. Meeting arrange kijiye. (Arrange the meeting.) Thank you very much. (pause) Combine together in Vṛndāvana. Fight . . . without fight where is life? If there is no fighting, then what is that life? That is dead stone. Fight must be there. Kṛṣṇa's whole life is fighting from the very birth. His father carried Him to Gokula where He is still living, and He fell down from the Yamunā and . . . just born, fighting began. Just born. And at Yaśodāmayī's house, Nanda Mahārāja's house, so many demons daily coming—Śakaṭāsura, Aghāsura, Bakāsura, Pūtanā, so on, so on, so on; ultimately Kaṁsa, when He was young boy. Vṛndāvana, so many asuras came. You have seen the pictures? Kṛṣṇa is fighting with the horse demon, with the bull . . . (indistinct) . . . fighting. If Kṛṣṇa is fighting, why not Kṛṣṇa consciousness the same thing? You cannot expect peaceful life. No, there must be fighting, then think, "That is Kṛṣṇa's presence, His fight." So this fighting means they're feeling the presence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Otherwise why they're arranging fight? Had it been an insignificant thing, there was no question of fighting. Mosha marte kaman daga. (Bringing a cannon to kill a mosquito.) to The gun, Howitzer gun? What is that? German, some gun they will go from this part of . . . this side of English Channel to other. Calais, the other side Calais? Calais. Calais in France. Calais in France. So from France to other side English Channel, London, that's all right. Artillery guns? Yes, they . . . Hitler invented. The gun will be fired from this side. Big, huge gun. Yes. So this gun is required not for killing a mosquito. (laughter) Big enemy. So they are preparing this big gun, and not the mosquito and this Mahesh Yogi and this yogī . You see? They are mosquitoes. For them they don't require any gun. So for big enemy, big gun, you see. They are preparing big gun, that means Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is big enemy. It is not mosquito. So you remain a big enemy, you don't become a mosquito. That is wanted. Immediately arrange this meeting here. Call all the Vaiṣṇavas, all. Apnader je party ache tader kichu bolun, Nimbarka sampradaya ke . . . nimbarka sampradaya tader gaudiyar sampradayer opor ekta dwesh ache. Janen ota? Khobor rakhen na? Amra je Caitanya Mahaprabhuke bhagavan boli ora ota swikar kore na. (Whatever parties you have, tell them something. To the Nimbarka sampradāya . . . Nimbarka sampradāya has envy on Gaudiya sampradaya . Do you know? You are not updated? They can’t accept that we call Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the Supreme Lord.) Ekbar shunechi santa das babaji korten, r bakito keu na. (I heard once that Santa das babaji does, but not others.) Na sobai kore. Ora oi nie gaudiya vaisnavder criticize kore. Amrau kori je manushke bhagavan bolar jonno, eta kono aschorjer bishoy na. Jemon amra Ramkrishnake criticize kori je ekta manushke ekta bhagavan koye dilo. Sei hisebe ora Caitanya Mahaprabhukeu mone kore manush. Manushke bhagavan eta kono sampraday swikar korbena. Ora bole Caitanya Mahaprabhu manush . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, all of them. They criticize the Gaudiya Vaisnavas in this regard. We also criticize, this is not something strange. We do it because people consider the common man as the Supreme Lord. For example we criticize Ramakrishna, that they made a human being as the Supreme Lord. So they also think of Caitanya Mahāprabhu as a human being. No sampradāya will accept a human being as God. They say Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a human being . . . (indistinct) . . .) so far Kṛṣṇa is concerned, everyone. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- November 2, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation on New York court case) So a lot of these parents are saying that we should all be . . . we should be investigated. Now they are saying that we are not Hindus, and they are saying that by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the thinking of the brain stops. Hmm. So in New York the press is against us. But in Los Angeles it is going in our favor, he said (referring to report by Rāmeśvara). In Los Angeles they had kidnapped the best girl distributor. Now she has come back, but, ah . . . So these things will happen. Yes. They are, as soon as we become very important, our enemies, they will try to suppress us. This is what they are doing. So that is natural. Even Kṛṣṇa was suppressed. Kṛṣṇa could not be suppressed, but the attempt was there, Kamsa. So these things go on, still we have to work. Yes. If we work sincerely then we'll come out successful. So there are a few things . . . We should not be afraid. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara ( BG 8.7). Kṛṣṇa advised Arjuna that "You fight," not that we shall not fight. We shall fight to the best . . . (indistinct) . . . and this is good, they are feeling the pressure of this movement. Otherwise, why they are going to take step? But they, what they do . . . these parents, what they want to do, they want this to be declared illegal. Now they . . . Illegal . . . they can, the children can also, those who are our children they can form an association. Yes. But they cannot control us, our independence. Yes. They should form. How the . . .? But of course, we want to defeat them . . . The parents, the parents cannot control their sons and daughters who is above eighteen. We want to defeat these people legally, because now it's a very big case and every paper in America is covering it. Every paper. That means they're feeling pressure. They're feeling pressure. Now we should take proper steps, that's all. They had a big press conference in which Professor Shukla spoke up . . . Hmm. He has spoken very nicely. Rāmeśvara said that he got up and he said: "How can . . . you are insulting our religion, saying we are not . . ." Yes. Yes, better that the Indians should combine and they should bring a case against these people. Yes. And then it will be all right. That "This is, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is genuine, and these people are trying to insult us." Bring a defamation case against these persons. I think the best thing is to mobilize all the Indians in America, because every country . . . *Yes, that I have already suggested, that they should take signature from all Indians that "this is genuine Indian cultural movement, and it a great fortune for Indians. They were bereft of their own culture and now we have got this culture again. The Ratha*-yātrā is going on, we are so much enlivened." In this way they should file petition. *Just like in England they would not let you do the Ratha*-yātrā, the Indians . . . Ah. This is discrimination against sect . . . Against minority. Yes. Against minority. And no government in the world wants to do that. It is against American constitution. So they should file immediately a case. And America is very sensitive to . . . So you note down. You are simply hearing. Note down and inform them. Yes. Ah, it is being recorded, that's all right. So give them this direction. Combine the Indian community. In Toronto and in . . . there are many thousands of Indians, New York, Canada, London. These are very important places. Yes, we can do that. *Yes, many thousands and thousands of important Indians, very rich men there are. In London there are very rich Indians. They can form immediately a solid association. They should present that, "This Kṛṣṇa is our God. In every Indian home we observe Kṛṣṇa Janmāṣṭamī." Even though one does not follow Kṛṣṇa cult, still if he is Hindu he follows the Janmāṣṭamī. Inevitably, everywhere. So this Kṛṣṇa cult is genuine, Vedic, based on Bhagavad*-gītā , which was spoken long, long years ago before any religion . . . any religious literature in the world. The Buddha literature or the Christian literature and Jewish literature, they cannot be counted more than two thousand years. A little more than that. But this Kṛṣṇa cult is coming, it is coming from, I have already explained in the Introduction, it is coming from four hundred millions of years ago. But even from historically, it is five thousand years—beyond all religious literature in the world. We have to present this case in the court. And let it be discussed thorough . . . yes, and see our books, compare any religious books with our these books. Present all the opinions of big, big professors how traditional Indian culture is there. You have to fight, organize. Give them hint, this. Yes. *How they can defeat us? We have got so solid ground. How they can defeat, these rascals? We consider them simply rascals and fools. And we call them rascals and fools. What do they know of religion? What do they know of God? They know slaughterhouse and killing and illicit sex, and killing the fetus. That's all. What do they know? They are not even civilized. We have come to make them civilized. They should understand. They are not civilized. They do not how to eat even. The first principle of life is eating. They do not know how to eat. We are teaching them how to eat. They simply challenge, like that. When men are uncivilized, they do not how to grow food, they kill animals in the jungle and eat. When they are civilized, they know how to grow food now, and the nice food grains, fruit, flowers, now why should say, "You eat the meat"? The meat*-eating is meant for the most uncivilized persons. That means they do not know even how to eat. They do not know how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex. Nothing. They're having sex like cats and dogs. No marriage—girl's friend, boy's friend, and then illegitimate . . . so many things. They should be exposed. *And there is no harm exposing, in truth. Simply by manufacturing, constructing a big, high skyscraper building, does it mean he is civilized? It is passionate work. They can take credit of a good mistrī, just like so many mistrīs, they construct. I cannot do. Does it mean I am less than him? I could not construct this temple. I have to call some low class, a builder and company, they constructed. Does it meant he is higher in intelligence than me? They are giving credit, "Oh, now they have constructed skyscraper building. They have constructed motorcar, horseless carriage." They are taking credit on this. But this is not civilization. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has given the formula of civilization, three words: mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu . Where is that civilization, to consider every woman as mother? Except one's own married wife, all women, mother. Where is that civilization? That should be; *otherwise there cannot be social regulation. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu para dravyeṣu loṣṭravat : others' property is just like garbage in the street. Nobody touches the garbage. That is civilization. So Mr. Pillai . . . (break) . . . got to do. He wants members of parliament to give . . . Hmm. That we have already suggested. Immediately. Every member of . . . if Mr . . . Krishna Modi. . . . Brahmānanda . . . Reddy. . . . he suggested that this movement should be spread all over the world. Let him write. Yes. He won't give it in writing. No. That is his insincerity. Frankly, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no member of parliament will give it either. I know it, because even when Tejiyas was applying for his citizenship, Krishna Modi would not even give a letter of recommendation because he said this is a Congress Party policy. Then what can be done? Everything is nasty. Yes. So this is what we'll do. We'll be starting a . . . You can give the names. There are so many members. Yes. We are starting a petition here also. Not only petition. You can give the . . . ask what is this . . . (indistinct) . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And also . . . If there is . . . now Brahmānanda has at least given this order that they should be given two . . . that they be allowed to stay two years. That letter is there. Yes. I have that letter. That letter says they have come to study Vedic literature. Yes. That letter is there. Also we have a lot of other letters from great . . . The Indians should send a petition to the government, that "We want this movement here. We are separated from our culture. A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami has brought this . . ." They say mobilizing the Indians in America . . . Yes. . . . and that's most important thing because . . . Yes. That is a most important thing, that you cannot discriminate minority communities. That is against American constitution. Prabhupāda, when this . . . when we had a similar situation in Germany, what we wanted to do is have all our centers in important cities in foreign countries all over the world make a letter and a delegation to visit the United States Embassy in all these places. This will have an effect, because if it's brought, if it comes in this way, international reaction . . . Yes, arrange like this. We're going to send . . . Rāmeśvara suggested we send a big petition of telegrams to the American Consulate. Because then American Consulate will transmit these telegrams to the State Department in Washington. We said that if our . . . we would pay for it, but our Life Members will all sign if we send a telegram to the American . . . Hmm, Dr. Shaligram taken a leading part? Who? Dr. Shaligram Shukla. Shaligram Shukla. In America? Yes. He is a learned scholar, and he is influential man in educational circles. There are many Indians you'll find, they are . . . So we can mobilize all the Indians. That's the best process. Yes, Indian opinion. I have already given suggestion to. The Indians should come forward. And from here also, similar, if the member . . . (indistinct) . . . know. Respectable Indian businessmen, they should say that, "This Kṛṣṇa cult is very, very old, genuine, and we are so enlightened that Swami Bhaktivedanta has taken this movement to the foreign countries. We are so proud," like that. Yes. We want to do that. And that is a fact. Everyone is feeling proud. Take all signature of the gosvāmīs here, influential, that "This is genuine." Prove there, that it is genuine movement. And we have letters from Swami Premananda and all the . . . (indistinct) . . . and all these letters from Bombay. I'm shipping all these to Rāmeśvara. Yes, everyone should join. Now people are taking this cultural movement so seriously, and if our Indian leaders sleep, that is not good. Actually, I have . . . one boy in Delhi went to the British Embassy High Commission and bought a British paper, and even in the British paper the American court case was covered. Headline was "Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." I have the paper. Even in the British paper it had a prominent display. Normally you would expect . . . Probably be in German papers too . . . Yes. In fact you would probably expect that . . . British paper. What does it say? They were covering this court case. They had a nice prominent . . . No, no. They have taken it. Now, they are after intelligent person. They are . . . that has been expressed by this gentleman that, "It is going like epidemic." They must expect. That is their feeling, that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading so fast, like epidemic, we must take some step." That is already, they have expressed their feeling. And you said that in Australia, there one man said . . . Yes, psychiatrist. . . . that if the people take to this movement, then where you stand? He has also expressed. What is that? *There's a psychiatrist, after the Sydney City Council are trying to have us banned from the city altogether, and they took us to court, and we didn't contest the case and they lost. And then afterwards they . . . it worked out they spent $10,000 and so much manpower to try to get rid of us, and it didn't work. And then one newspaper man went to a psychiatrist and he asked him, "Can you explain why this huge reaction against just a few people singing and dancing in the street?" So he said basically it's because the city*-dwellers feel very threatened by our simple lifestyle. Yes. Just see. So this whole Western civilization is threatened. They are afraid of the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. *Yes. Their whole economic structure will fail. Theoretically, take it for granted that if people give up meat*-eating . . . No smoking, no drinking. *. . . then whole civilization finished. Even theoretically taken, no smoking, no gambling, no intoxication, no illicit sex, their whole civilization is finished. Lord Zetland said . . . not only that, one Sir Valentine Chirol, I think, Sir Valentine Chirol, British, important, when Gandhi started non*-cooperation. So he remarked that, "If Gandhi's movement, this non-cooperation movement, is one percent successful, then we will have to leave it." And actually that happened. Because they were ruling over India by Indian cooperation. So Gandhi struck to the right point, non-cooperation, and he scented the danger, and he remarked in that time that if one percent Indian people non-cooperate, then we are . . . our British Empire finished. So there are intelligent persons, they are thinking in their own way that, "This movement is so strong against this modern material civilization, if it is allowed to spread then our whole civilization, whole economic structure will be finished." What they're doing now, these parents are getting . . . contacting devotees who have blooped, and they're getting these devotees to make statements against us. *Just see. They are living peacefully in a villa in Paris so happily that, ah . . . some . . . one gentleman came to see me, "Swamiji, you are preaching against meat*-eating. This cannot be done in this country, then we will starve." I said: "No, you will never starve. You take this formula." (laughs) So they are thinking like that. Yes. And the most dangerous point is that young men are taking part. The future of the country. *Yes. That means it will continue. Young men, they take anything very seriously. So this movement is threatening the—what is called?—foundation of material civilization in the Western countries. That's a fact. The foundation is threatened. Their whole foundation is this: meat*-eating, illicit sex, gambling and intoxication. They have no other formula. Lord Zetland, when he was asking one of my Godbrothers that, "Can you make me Brahmin ?" So "Yes, why not? You follow." He said: "It is impossible for us. It is impossible for us. And we are no one." That's a fact. If some percentage of the population, European and American population, take it seriously, then it will be dangerous for their government, their economic situation, that's a fact. That, our Sudāmā Vipra is saying that, theatrical . . . Sudāmā Swami is in New York. Sudāmā Mahārāja. Hah! And whole situation is threatened, Caitanya Mahāprabhu movement. Have you seen that? That play. Play? Kali. Age of Kali. Yes. The purport of the play is that this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is threatening to all the associates of pāpa . (break) *He, Rāmeśvara told me last night, is completely against these so*-called religious movements like our, and he has written personal letters to the parents of all the people who have joined, all those who would write to him, that these types of movements should be stopped. The young men should form another party, all the American young men. Viṣṇu party. Hmm. Viṣṇu party. Yes. Now they should take in politics. You wrote in your Eighth Canto, there are always two parties: the Viṣṇu party and the demons' party. Yes. If they're forming demons' party, let them . . . Form a Viṣṇu party. That, ah, the fight between the Viṣṇu party and the demon party is always going on. Well they could never stop it, I mean. They could just make some difficulty, that's all. *No. It is in the hands of the young men. It is not possible for them to stop it. If it had been a sentiment of some retired, just like other thing, that Vivekananda's, all these old fools and rascals, they assemble and meditate. It is not that. They are active. It is not so*-called meditation, and snoring, (makes snoring sound) meditating. It is not that. I have seen, all these rascals go, yogīs , they prescribe meditation, and meditation means sleeping and snoring, that's all. It is not that movement. We are sending, inducing, "Come, sell books." It is no question of meditation. Cheating himself and cheating others. What he will meditate? And he requires so many primary rules and regulations before meditating, not that . . . in the Bhagavad-gītā , for meditation it is clearly stated one should not close the eyes. As soon as you close the eyes and meditate, you will sleep. Immediately. It is . . . they should be half closed, and concentrate your eyesight on the top of the nose. That is meditation. Not that closing and snoring and "huh." Anyway, these rascals, they are going on. Who cares for the genuine thing? Nobody cares. Dharma . . . (indistinct) . . . that "I am your guru , I have followers," dharma principle, but he does not know anything. This is going on. Neither the rascal guru knows, neither his disciple knows. This is the position. Everywhere this is going on. All bluff. This very word used, a dharma . . . (indistinct) . . . get a plaque, that "I am . . . (indistinct) . . ." That's all. And hang it, that's all, and do nothing, that's all. "I do not know nothing, but I have the plaque," that's all. All these gurus , all these chelas are doing that. This Anandamayi, Sai Baba, this, that, so many. What do they know? That is why these leaders are getting confused, so many bogus people are there. Yes. That should . . . action should be there. If we come out successful in this, how you say, messing, and that will be very good. It is called that, messing? Mixing. Mixing. Not mixing. Punching together. Messing, that what is called? Chaduni? What is called? Sifting? Sifting, yes. (coughing) It is called not messing also? Hmm. Sifting high grains from the small. Yes. Hmm. Hmm. The smaller grains, they fall down. Oh, straining. Straining, yes. Straining, yes, straining. If the straining process, no, that's nice. Yes, they can get rid of all the bad ones just like in the rice field. The good ones . . . (indistinct) . . . every newspaper in America is covering us, Rāmeśvara said. Good advertisement. I was seeing that. And every page Kṛṣṇa, there is Kṛṣṇa. Every page there is Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, that happened in Germany. I told them, "It is very good that Hare Kṛṣṇa." . . . (indistinct) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughing) We are known as Kṛṣṇas. They call us Kṛṣṇas. You put yourselves "Kṛṣṇians." They are Christians and we are Kṛṣṇians. And actually from Kṛṣṇian, the "Christian" has come. Yes. Kṛṣṇa, ah, Christo, there is a word, Greek word, and Christo is broken spelling of Kṛṣṇa. In India we say one is . . . one name say is Kṛṣṇa, at least in Bengali we say Kṛṣṭa. Kṛṣṭa. This Kṛṣṭa word is from Kṛṣṇa. And from Kṛṣṭa, Christ has come. This is original root, Kṛṣṇa. So we have to fight. Here is a chance for fighting, so why they're afraid? No, we just have to work hard on getting everything coordinated. *You have to fight, keeping our principles strictly. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). We should not be afraid to fight. And it is . . . there are Indians . . . it is not the Indians cooperating. Now Indians and Americans should join for fighting on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be successful. How they can say it is not genuine movement? Other so*-called yogīs , svāmīs , they may be rascal, but this is not the rascaldom. It is . . . They are saying . . . they are saying we are not Hindus. Hmm? They are saying this is not Hinduism. Hindus . . . we are Kṛṣṇian. It they, if . . . Kṛṣṇans. *Kṛṣṇa, in the dictionary it is said that Hindu God, but we are claiming, that Kṛṣṇian, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means "Godder than the Hindus." When you say we are not Hindu, that we are not restricted with the Hindi community. That is the meaning. Because Kṛṣṇa says, "I am for everyone." So why should we be restricted to the Hindi community? Kṛṣṇa says sarva yoniṣu, "In all forms of life, I am the seed giving father." Why He should be simply Hindu? This point should be stressed. Sarva yoni means eighty*-four million . . . eighty, eighty, 8,400,000s, all forms. Kṛṣṇa is for all of them. We therefore, why Kṛṣṇa should be restricted to the Hindu community? Hindus are included, but Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to Hindus. Kṛṣṇa's picture, that Bāla Gopāla, He's embracing the calves. Kṛṣṇa does not embrace only the gopīs, He's embracing the calves also. That is Kṛṣṇa. He's equal to everyone. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonayaḥ , so many low-grade forms of life, they're also His . . . devotees are part and parcel. Mamaivāṁśo jī . . . (BG 15.7). Quote this: Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to the Hindu. We say, "We are not Hindu," means we are not . . . we embrace everyone. We are not restricted to the Hindus. The so-called Christians, so-called Muhammadans, they . . . we embrace everyone. *And actually we are doing that. Why should we simply be compact within the limitation of Hindus? That is not our purpose. Then we would not have come to Western countries. We actually spreading universal brotherhood. Kṛṣṇa is the father and everyone our brother. We are claiming all our fallen brothers to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu: pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). This is our movement. Why you should be restricted to the India, and amongst the Hindus? Our Gods, They asked that "Go, go," bhārata bhūmite : you have taken birth in India, that's all right, make your life successful and go abroad, para upakāra. Janma sārthaka kori koro para-upakāra . This is our mission. We have come to you to make you civilized. This is our mission. And the best men of your country they are recommending. All the learned circle, they are coming. How can you defy us? If you have got brain . . . you are trying to brainwash. Actually you have no brain to . . . (indistinct) . . . how important it is, this movement. You are trying to brainwash. We are not brainwashing. We are giving you good brain. That is our mission, that you are so dull-headed we have come to give you good brain. Su-medhasaḥ . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). We have come to make you intelligent. Receive us well, for your benefit. Tell them like that. Bring one court case, and I shall sit . . . go and sleep there, and expose them, item by item. I know my case is strong. It's the strongest. (laughing) Yes. I will speak. If you cannot speak, I shall go and speak. There are a few Indians, I was just thinking, in America who are right at the top of the American scientific research. There is one Dr. Khorana, he won the Nobel Prize, and there are a few others who are right at the top of the . . . Where he is? Where he is? All in America. They're at the top of the US space program. I think we should also approach these people who are . . . (indistinct) . . . Punjabis. Yes. He won the Nobel Prize, you know. But I just remembered that there are few other Indians who are at the top of the US space program, so if we approach them . . . Now our this Svarūpa Dāmodara and others, they can also come. We should approach all these people and get them to take part in the petition. *That Bhavan's Journal, he did not dare to publish my statement. Everyone is combined to kill Kṛṣṇa. Everyone, all over the world. God . . . "There is no God," the scientists, these philosophers, the politicians—everyone. This is the only movement talking of God. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādī . Everywhere, impersonalists and zero: "There is no God." The zero- vādīs , they are little frank, but these rascals, nirviśeṣavādīs , "God has no head, no tail," they are dangerous. Zero- vādīs , they call Him zero, that's all right. That is . . . we can understand, they admit. But these rascals, zero . . . nirviśeṣavādīs, "Yes, there is God, but He has no head, He has no tail, He has no hand, He has no leg." Then what He has? They are greatest cheater, more dangerous than the śūnyavādīs. That is the version of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Vedinām mayima bhogda hoila nāstik , vedāśraya nāstikavāda bhogda ki hodi . These Buddhists, they do not care for the Vedic injunction, we can understand. But these Śankarites, they take shelter of the Vedas and they say: "There is no form of God." And that is being followed, the so*-called Hindus. All the invitees in that meeting, Bajaj meeting, they are all nirviśeṣvādī . Impersonalists. All impersonal. That's why there may be a problem in getting Indian people to support our movement. Hmm? If there is any trouble in getting Indians . . . *No, we don't care for Indians and Europeans. We care for Kṛṣṇa, that's all. I didn't care for anyone. I simply care for Kṛṣṇa, that's all. And my Guru Mahārāja, that's all. I went to your country not supported by Indians and Europeans. I went on the order of my Guru Mahārāja and under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa's protection, that's all. That is wanted. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). We want two favors: one from guru , one from Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want anyone's favor. So you have to fight. You cannot fight immaterialists. Kṛṣṇa never said, "Arjuna, oh, you are My devotee, you sit down and sleep, I shall take care of . . ." He never said that. (laughs) So if you take that position, "We are devotees, nonviolent, and let us sleep," that is not . . . fight, with all the resources that we have got. That is wanted. That you cannot stop. (loud voices in background) They are coming, going, how you can stop? People, public, they are coming, going here. They all want to come and have a look at the guesthouse. *That's all right. So prepare for fight. Don't be afraid. Arjuna, they were five brothers, and the other party, one hundred brothers. Therefore Dhṛtarāṣṭra was confident, that "What are these five brothers without any help? We have ruined them. They were in the forest for thirteen years, lost all connection, no kingdom. I have got government in hand, and my sons are . . . hundred sons, and we are well equipped. How . . .?" Therefore the . . . bring that Bhagavad*-gītā , dṛṣṭvā tu pāṇḍavāṇīkam (BG 1.2). Dṛṣṭvā tu pāṇḍavāṇīkaṁ vyūḍhaṁ duryodhanas tadā . If someone wants to come, let him come. Ācāryam . . . Why you have refused him? Let him come. Ācāryam upasaṅgamya rājā vacanam abravīt (BG 1.2). Yes. What is the translation? "Sañjaya said, 'O King, after looking over the army gathered by the sons of Pāṇḍu, King Duryodhana went to his teacher and began to speak the following words.' " Aiye, aiye. (Please come, please come.) (guests arrive) (break) Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is to preach. So you join us. Why should you be limited within Vṛndāvana? The people are taking this, and there is . . . now they are feeling the strength. The whole world is now combining against this movement. That means they are feeling the strength. Certainly it is not credit. Certainly. *Don't say "certainly." You must come forward to fight. If you simply sit down in Vṛndāvana, then Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is not being carried. He says, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126), that is His mission. So this attempt has been made in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, so why other parties, they should sit down and simply . . .? I am a teeny person, single-handed we shall fight. Why you should see the fun and do not fight? That I am asking you. I shall fight, and you shall see the fun. No, no. What is this? Now, you appear to be educated gentlemen, you combine, all the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava gosvāmīs , and come with me to fight, because there is a world fight now. They are threatened. Their whole civilization is threatened by this movement. That is the position now. Whole Europe and America, they are combining. They are intelligent person, they see that this movement is spreading like epidemic. They have admitted, some of their party, "If this movement is allowed to advance, then some day they will take our government." They have expressed that feeling. And now they are preparing to fight out. These . . . all these fathers of these young men, they are combining together to charge me that I am kidnapping their boys. So it is a serious situation. You should not see simply the fun and claim to belong to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Now you should come out to fight. Am I wrong or right? You are right. *Then do that. Hold a meeting among the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas here, and I will explain the position. Now we should combine together and fight. As soon as you introduce something strong, there will be fight. There will be fight. Even Kṛṣṇa had to see the fight, Kurukṣetra. Dharmakṣetre kurukṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). The fight must be there, yuyutsavaḥ . So if you belong to Caitanya Mahāprabhu's party, then you should come out to fight. Whatever done is done, and it is done single*-handed. Nobody has helped me, even not my Godbrothers. These American boys, they have helped me. They understood the philosophy and they helped me. Rather, they are criticizing that I am making these American boys sannyāsī and giving them sacred thread. They are criticizing. What is your opinion? I don't think that's a . . . (indistinct) They criticize me. They do not recognize this temple as a Vaiṣṇava temple. They say angrej temple. (laughter) (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . there will be whole integration towards Kṛṣṇa. *Yes, yes. Jīvera 'svarūpa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Why they criticize? We are trying that. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Why the pāpa-yonis should be neglected? So this thing have been done single-handed, now you should come forward, all, combine together. Ye aap log acchi tarah se sochiye aur combined hoiye, aaiye hamare saath me. (You people think nicely and combine together, come along with me.) There is a great fight. We are just planning how to fight. Simply katha vachak hone se kya hoga, pet palan ho sakta hai, isme kuch vishesh kaam nahi hai. (What is the use of just being a preacher? You can earn for your stomach, but there is nothing special in this.) Now when there is fight, it requires real strength. Now their fight is confronting us because they are feeling the strength. Their whole civilization is threatened. We are recommending no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling and no meat-eating. But this is the basic principle of modern civilization. So the foundation is threatened. Theoretically they are taking that "If these four things are stopped, then where is our civilization? Where we stand?" Meat-eating, they have all over the world millions of slaughterhouse. So if these millions of slaughterhouse is stopped, then where they stand? They are threatened like that. *Their whole set*-up, their whole economy is being threatened. The millions of liquor manufacturers, breweries, millions of gambling houses, so . . . cigarette factories. So theoretically, if this movement is successful, then whole civilization is finished. So they are now looking . . . because these young men have taken seriously, so they are threatened and they are making a strong party to fight with us. They cannot safely say that against this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement they are threatening a charge against my movement or me that I am kidnapping young men. That is their threatening. I am not kidnapping. I am not going to their house to kidnap. They are coming to us. Ye sab position hai. Aaplog sab Vrndavana me gosai log sab hain, humko thoda sa help kijiye. (This is the position. You all in Vṛndāvana, there are Goswamis also there, help me a little.) *The gosvāmīs, they are śrī*-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau . Now prove. They are descendants. Now prove—come forward. Śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau . Simply sitting at home. And in Bengal there is Nityānanda-vaṁśa . What is Nityānanda-vaṁśa ? Nityānanda went forward before Jagāi-Mādhāi and He was hurt. Blood came out. Where is that Nityānanda- vaṁśa ? Fight between Jagāi-Mādhāi and Nityānanda . . . that is Nityānanda-vaṁśa , simply taking advantage of coming from Nityānanda-vaṁśa , "I have become guru . Give me your money," and sit down. "Let me enjoy life with my wife and children." That kind of Nityānanda-vaṁśa will not help. Come forward to fight. With this fighting is now here. (aside) You can show the newspaper clipping. Bahut big argument ho raha hai. (A big argument is going on to fight this.) First of all they thought that so many svāmīs and yogīs come, all rascals, they stay for some time and go away. Even Vivekananda. (laughter) So this is not a bogus movement, it is taking stand. So now they are threatened and they are combining together, especially the Christian . . . ye dekhiye kitna baseless hai accusation. Just see how baseless is their accusation. But in each heading there is "Kṛṣṇa." (break) . . . bring various charges against our . . . Mind control, brainwashing. *You should go to see Viśvambhara Goswami also. Panch gavya usme cow mutra diya jata hai, to usi ko prominence de raha hai udhar milk hai usko nahi, ye sabse . . . aur sab gavya chod diya, urine ka taste hai ye sab chal raha hai. ye sab bada fight hai aap log aiye, sahyog kijiye. Aaplog jo actual battlefield me jana chahte hain usko hum leke jayenge. Aaplog tayyar hoiye ladai karne ke liye. Aisi baat nahi hai ki hum nahi ja sakte, wo sab hum . . . aaplog jo bheed hai wo sab tayyar hoiye. (In the pancha gavya , cow urine is added, so prominence is being given for that. There is milk from cows, they are not bothered by all this . . . all the other products from cows they have ignored, there is the taste of urine. All this is going on. This is a big fight, you people come and support us. Those of you who want to go to the actual battlefield, we will take you all. You all be prepared to fight. It is not that we cannot go, all that we . . . you as a crowd be prepared.) This is fortunate that you have come in this moment. So I'll give you this inspiration. Now combine together all Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs. Kṛṣṇa cult is for everyone, either Gauḍīya or Rāmānuja or everyone. Now all of you should come forward. That you do. Admitting kijiye, ye sab ho raha hai Krishna conscious movement ko cut down karne ke liye sab combine ho rahe hain. aap kya chahte hain ki hum udhar defeat ho karke vapas laut ke aaye. To aaplog thoda help kijiye. (You admit that all this is going on, they are trying to cut down the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement and they are all combining. What do you want, that we are defeated there and return back? So you people must help.) They are concerned with the Kṛṣṇa cult. Kṛṣṇa cult means all the ācāryas , all the ācāryas , either Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka or anyone, they should combine together. Abhi ghar me baith kar kaam nahi chalega. hamara guru maharaj decide kiya, wo bahut dheet hai kehte hain (Now sitting at home we cannot achieve anything. My Guru Maharaja decided, he is very stubborn, it is said.) Mana! Tumi kiser vaishnav? Pratisthar tare nirjaner ghare tava harinam kebol kaitav. (Mind, what kind of devotee are you? For cheap adoration you are sitting in one solitary room and chanting, is simply cheating.) Do you understand Bengali? (Humare vaishnav hain kahin bahar nahi jate hain aur ghar baithkarke Haridas Thakur ka nakal karte hain. (Our Vaisnavas are there, they don't go out anywhere, and they sit at home and imitate Haridas Thakur.) (aside) Why you are talking? It is not very important. It is for him. It is a very bad habit. So we should be very alert in this point. All the Vaiṣṇavas of different sampradāyas , especially Gauḍīya sampradāya , you should come forward to fight this. They are gathering their strength. We should gather our strength. Fight. Kṛṣṇa never said that "Don't fight." Never said, Arjuna that, "You are My devotee, you don't fight. You are very good gentleman, nonviolent, and I shall do everything for you." Never said that. Kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samu . . . (BG 2.2) Viṣame samupasthitam . "Now there is a great dangerous fight, why you are saying like a nonsense," anārya*-juṣṭam , "like non-Aryan?" To ye fight mauzood hai dekhiye, have prasadam. to aaplog sab aiye, hum to akele hain. (So this fight is present, have prasadam . So you people come together, I am all alone.) This fight is another good news, that they are feeling the strength. Otherwise they would not have prepared to fight. Formerly they were thinking that so many svāmīs and yogīs come, come and go. But now they are feeling the strength, they charging that their young men are being kidnapped. It is strong party. And these boys, they have taken to Vaiṣṇava principles, their parents have tried to take them back and induce them to eat meat and according . . . they deny. This is also tried. I have got many disciples, they are coming out very rich family, rich father. So one of the fathers called his son that "I am old man. The business is dwindling. You come and take . . ." So I told him that, "You go. Why not take your father's business and use it for Kṛṣṇa?" So he went, on my order. The father wanted him to eat meat. So he denied, that "I cannot do that. I can help in your business, but I cannot accept your way of life. That is not possible." Then the father saw, "Then he is lost, useless. If he's not adopting our life . . ." So there, that one father; *now the all fathers have combined, that "Our children are now lost. They do not come home, what to speak of adopting again our way of life." They cannot accept the way of life, meat*-eating and . . . that is not possible. That they're finding dangerous. And other movement they join and they come back. They remain what they are. Simply they say that, "I belong to this grouping." But our is different. Not only he belongs to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, but a different type of life. (reads something) Hmm. Give it. They have taken . . . (indistinct) . . . there are many, many groups like that. This is New York. Chanting in the street. Isko kuch upay kijiye. (Find some solution for this.) What do you want to do? Propose. Hold a meeting of all the Gosvāmīs. You take the leading part. Go to Viśvanātha Goswami. If you like, he can go with you to see others, "This is the position. You come and join." What do they say? I . . . (indistinct) . . . contacted them, call a meeting. Yes. Immediately. How long you are staying here? I will stay if you hold immediately meeting in this temple. We have got enough space here. First of all you see some leading gosvāmī , and then you chalk out how to fight. All the sampra . . . now it is question of Kṛṣṇa cult, it is not only Gauḍīya. So take gosvāmīs , some of you, and meet all the leaders and hold a meeting, immediately arrange. And explain the whole situation. Let us combine. And those who are educated, they should go. We shall arrange for their all expenditure. It doesn't matter. Fight. "This is a genuine cult. If you discriminate, that is discrimination against religion, cult. We are accepting everyone, but it is a genuine cult. You also Christian, you accept anyone; why you say it is not genuine?" That we have to prove. There the Hindus and Indians who are there, they will also join. So immediately hold a meeting. It is very serious situation. Aap leading part lijiye. Aur jo goswami hain, aur sab jo jo hain sab combine hoke chaliye sab apko hum leke jayenge. (You take the leading part. And the Goswamis and others, who are all combined and come with us, we shall take all of you.) This is genuine movement. Why the American government should be discriminating against a genuine religious sect, Kṛṣṇa? Make this company. (aside) Prasāda , give him prasāda . Very seriously deliberate. And you go with him. We have got any car? Not right now. Not at the present moment. (aside) Haṁsadūta's van here? Where our car has gone? Bareilly. They have program in Bareilly. When? Two days ago they went. No, when the program is? Now it's going on. Going on. Mmm. When they will come back? About one week, one and a half weeks. So we can ask them to come back. The car will be required both here and there. Okay. That's easy enough. I can do it. Mmm. Or any other car available? (indistinct) . . . Krishna Chand. No, he doesn't have one. No, Viśvan . . . there is always car. We have the motorcycle. We can arrange elsewhere. It's okay. Hah. So(to sab se miliye. (meet everyone.) He will go with you, immediately. Meeting arrange kijiye. (Arrange the meeting.) Thank you very much. (pause) Combine together in Vṛndāvana. Fight . . . without fight where is life? If there is no fighting, then what is that life? That is dead stone. Fight must be there. Kṛṣṇa's whole life is fighting from the very birth. His father carried Him to Gokula where He is still living, and He fell down from the Yamunā and . . . just born, fighting began. Just born. And at Yaśodāmayī's house, Nanda Mahārāja's house, so many demons daily coming—Śakaṭāsura, Aghāsura, Bakāsura, Pūtanā, so on, so on, so on; ultimately Kaṁsa, when He was young boy. Vṛndāvana, so many asuras came. You have seen the pictures? Kṛṣṇa is fighting with the horse demon, with the bull . . . (indistinct) . . . fighting. If Kṛṣṇa is fighting, why not Kṛṣṇa consciousness the same thing? You cannot expect peaceful life. No, there must be fighting, then think, "That is Kṛṣṇa's presence, His fight." So this fighting means they're feeling the presence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Otherwise why they're arranging fight? Had it been an insignificant thing, there was no question of fighting. Mosha marte kaman daga. (Bringing a cannon to kill a mosquito.) to The gun, Howitzer gun? What is that? German, some gun they will go from this part of . . . this side of English Channel to other. Calais, the other side Calais? Calais. Calais in France. Calais in France. So from France to other side English Channel, London, that's all right. Artillery guns? Yes, they . . . Hitler invented. The gun will be fired from this side. Big, huge gun. Yes. So this gun is required not for killing a mosquito. (laughter) Big enemy. So they are preparing this big gun, and not the mosquito and this Mahesh Yogi and this yogī . You see? They are mosquitoes. For them they don't require any gun. So for big enemy, big gun, you see. They are preparing big gun, that means Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is big enemy. It is not mosquito. So you remain a big enemy, you don't become a mosquito. That is wanted. Immediately arrange this meeting here. Call all the Vaiṣṇavas, all. Apnader je party ache tader kichu bolun, Nimbarka sampradaya ke . . . nimbarka sampradaya tader gaudiyar sampradayer opor ekta dwesh ache. Janen ota? Khobor rakhen na? Amra je Caitanya Mahaprabhuke bhagavan boli ora ota swikar kore na. (Whatever parties you have, tell them something. To the Nimbarka sampradāya . . . Nimbarka sampradāya has envy on Gaudiya sampradaya . Do you know? You are not updated? They can’t accept that we call Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the Supreme Lord.) Ekbar shunechi santa das babaji korten, r bakito keu na. (I heard once that Santa das babaji does, but not others.) Na sobai kore. Ora oi nie gaudiya vaisnavder criticize kore. Amrau kori je manushke bhagavan bolar jonno, eta kono aschorjer bishoy na. Jemon amra Ramkrishnake criticize kori je ekta manushke ekta bhagavan koye dilo. Sei hisebe ora Caitanya Mahaprabhukeu mone kore manush. Manushke bhagavan eta kono sampraday swikar korbena. Ora bole Caitanya Mahaprabhu manush . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, all of them. They criticize the Gaudiya Vaisnavas in this regard. We also criticize, this is not something strange. We do it because people consider the common man as the Supreme Lord. For example we criticize Ramakrishna, that they made a human being as the Supreme Lord. So they also think of Caitanya Mahāprabhu as a human being. No sampradāya will accept a human being as God. They say Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a human being . . . (indistinct) . . .) so far Kṛṣṇa is concerned, everyone. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- November 3, 1976, Vrndavana . . . brainwash. But how can they take it that what we're doing is a bad thing? If we're training people how to avoid intoxication, how to avoid illicit sex, abortion, contraception . . . They say: "Why you should avoid? This is life. Why you are brainwashing?" One boy was there in the beginning . . . what was his name? Ranchor, his name, I gave him. So his father argued, "Why you are avoiding illicit sex? This is life! Why you are afraid? I'll give you car. I'll give you girls. You enjoy. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy?" His father was arguing. I think everyone's father argues like that. Lord Ronaldsay, he said: "Why you are prohibiting this thing? This is our life. It is impossible." The thing is in society still, even now, there are people who abstain from it. There are vegetarians or . . . There may be very few, one or two. That is insignificant. One million, two person, he is. At least especially in your country. The thing is that they don't claim that they are brainwashed. So we're a society where we're doing all these things, combinedly. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If the majority are fools and rascal, if you say something sane, then they'll ask . . . the man, the sane man, he is insane. He's crazy. Hmm. Then how to fight them? *That is the position. The only means is that in spite of all opposition you have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will cleanse. Otherwise there is no other way. Argument and logic, they have no brain to understand. It requires this transcendental method, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12), by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. You have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and let them . . . give the chance to hear. Then they will be able to catch it, what we are saying. Not directly. It is not possible. Then how are we going to fare in this court case? 'Cause in these court cases it's a question of presenting one side against the . . . No, philosophy is there. Court case means there is philosophy, there is logic. So for that we have got so many books. We can . . . but general mass of people, chanting. When there is court case we are prepared to defend. We have got . . . you are not fools. We can talk that what is the aim of life. They cannot say anything. The transmigration of the soul, the aim of life which we are discussing in our book, that's fact. How he can deny the transmigration of the soul from one body to another? And if that is accepted, the whole problem is solved. He does not know what kind of life he is going to get. Therefore they do not accept this philosophy. If once accepted, then next question: "What kind of life you are going to get, either to become a tree or a dog or a human being?" What arrangement you have done that you will get next life human being? Then the pious and impious activities comes one after another. The basic principle they are denying, "After this body is finished, everything is finished." Bhāsmi bhūtasya dehasya punar agama . . . "The body will be burned into ashes, and where is life? Who is coming? Who is going?" They do not see the soul. Their medical science cannot find out where is soul. How do they say the . . . the soul means intelligence, they say. Otherwise, do they say the animal has no soul? Why do they say? What is the . . . what is . . . "Man has soul," they say: "The animal has no soul." That's what the Christians say. The Christians say. So what is the symptom? Well, they . . . 'cause he, man, has reason and logic. That means reason and logic is soul. That is their idea. That is not soul. Intelligence, when I say: "You have got intelligence," it does not mean you are intelligence. "You have got intelligence," we say like that. We never say: "You are intelligence." So intelligence is not soul. The rascals, they do not know. Mistake. Nobody says: "You are intelligence." They say, "You are intelligent." Intelligence is something you possess. Yes. (someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So? (break) (looking in dictionary) "Brainwashing: clearing the mind of established ideas by persistent suggestion and indoctrination." *That is . . . (chuckles) We are doing that. They, they are under the impression, "Work hard, earn money and enjoy life." We say, "No. Don't work hard for sense gratification but work hard for self*-realization." Indoctrine. Yep well, any form of education is indoctrination. Indoctrinization. Yes. Any kind of education is. Whatever you teach someone, you teach according to whatever you see as the correct value. Yes. The child goes to the school. His brain is packed up, "I shall play all day." He likes that, to play, but it is indoctrinization that "No, you should read. You must become graduate." Yes. And whatever country he's born in, he has to learn the culture of that country; he's indoctrinated. Apart from that, education is required. The child wants to play, but we have to educate him that "No, play is not all. You have to be educated." Yeah. Similarly, this animal life—eating, sleeping, mating—this is already there. No. We say: "Not only this, you have to realize God." This kind of brainwash is required. If we do not understand God, then what is the difference between you and dog? He knows how to eat, how to sleep. He doesn't require any high education . . . (indistinct) . . . how to eat. Everyone knows how to eat, how to use sex. Nobody requires any university education. Simply ignorance. When the animal enjoy sex, they know which part of the body has to be used. They don't have to be taught. It is not, there is no need of education. He knows it. And these rascals, they are presenting Freud's philosophy, sex. Just see how they are wasting time. *They have so many books now on so*-called sex education, so many of them. Simply wasting time. There is a story about this. One man was canvassing, hawking. Hawker? Yes, hawker. So he was, "Here is a book of cow protection," cow protection. He has written one book to take care of the cows. So when old man called him, "What you are selling?" Now, "I am selling this book." "What is that book?" "Maintaining the cow." So, "Why you are selling? First of all you give this book to your mother, because you are no better than cow, so she will learn how to give you protection." That means he wanted to impress upon him that, "Cow protection doesn't require any education. You have written a book? So you are such a rascal, cow intelligence. Better give this book to your mother. She will maintain you. Don't sell it. Everyone knows how to give cow protection." So similarly, this sex literature, there is no need of sex literature. No. Sex literature is there in Sanskrit also. That is how to restrict sex. For what purpose one should indulge in sex, that is called Kāma-śāstra . I have seen this Freud philosophy became so prominent that sometimes in the year . . . 1940s maybe, so one young woman was travelling, and another young man was travelling. So they began to discuss about sex very openly. And both of them unknown. Still, they engaged themselves in discussing the sex literature, without any shame. *Pseudo*-intellectuals. Huh. *Pseudo*-intellectuals. Shameless. Yes. Young boy, young girl, they began to discuss on sex openly as scientific. What is this scientific? (laughs) Scientific means after discussing for some time you propose that, "Let us enjoy sex." That's all. It is common thing in your country—unknown girl, unknown boy, and talk for some time, "Let us go to some restaurant," and then talk more intimately, and then sex. That's the whole social system. "Would you like to sex?" And who is the young man, young . . . who'll deny it? I know this. During ball dance they embrace one another, another's wife, another's husband, and in ball dance . . . or there are side rooms. Naturally they'll feel sex, and they go to the side room and discuss. Is it not? Yes. The only reason they go to a dance is to pick up some woman for sex life. That's all. Yes. Most of my friends used to go out specifically to find some woman to have sex. This dancing club means this. (long pause) (end) Conversation A -- November 3, 1976, Vrndavana . . . brainwash. But how can they take it that what we're doing is a bad thing? If we're training people how to avoid intoxication, how to avoid illicit sex, abortion, contraception . . . They say: "Why you should avoid? This is life. Why you are brainwashing?" One boy was there in the beginning . . . what was his name? Ranchor, his name, I gave him. So his father argued, "Why you are avoiding illicit sex? This is life! Why you are afraid? I'll give you car. I'll give you girls. You enjoy. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy?" His father was arguing. I think everyone's father argues like that. Lord Ronaldsay, he said: "Why you are prohibiting this thing? This is our life. It is impossible." The thing is in society still, even now, there are people who abstain from it. There are vegetarians or . . . There may be very few, one or two. That is insignificant. One million, two person, he is. At least especially in your country. The thing is that they don't claim that they are brainwashed. So we're a society where we're doing all these things, combinedly. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If the majority are fools and rascal, if you say something sane, then they'll ask . . . the man, the sane man, he is insane. He's crazy. Hmm. Then how to fight them? *That is the position. The only means is that in spite of all opposition you have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will cleanse. Otherwise there is no other way. Argument and logic, they have no brain to understand. It requires this transcendental method, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12), by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. You have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and let them . . . give the chance to hear. Then they will be able to catch it, what we are saying. Not directly. It is not possible. Then how are we going to fare in this court case? 'Cause in these court cases it's a question of presenting one side against the . . . No, philosophy is there. Court case means there is philosophy, there is logic. So for that we have got so many books. We can . . . but general mass of people, chanting. When there is court case we are prepared to defend. We have got . . . you are not fools. We can talk that what is the aim of life. They cannot say anything. The transmigration of the soul, the aim of life which we are discussing in our book, that's fact. How he can deny the transmigration of the soul from one body to another? And if that is accepted, the whole problem is solved. He does not know what kind of life he is going to get. Therefore they do not accept this philosophy. If once accepted, then next question: "What kind of life you are going to get, either to become a tree or a dog or a human being?" What arrangement you have done that you will get next life human being? Then the pious and impious activities comes one after another. The basic principle they are denying, "After this body is finished, everything is finished." Bhāsmi bhūtasya dehasya punar agama . . . "The body will be burned into ashes, and where is life? Who is coming? Who is going?" They do not see the soul. Their medical science cannot find out where is soul. How do they say the . . . the soul means intelligence, they say. Otherwise, do they say the animal has no soul? Why do they say? What is the . . . what is . . . "Man has soul," they say: "The animal has no soul." That's what the Christians say. The Christians say. So what is the symptom? Well, they . . . 'cause he, man, has reason and logic. That means reason and logic is soul. That is their idea. That is not soul. Intelligence, when I say: "You have got intelligence," it does not mean you are intelligence. "You have got intelligence," we say like that. We never say: "You are intelligence." So intelligence is not soul. The rascals, they do not know. Mistake. Nobody says: "You are intelligence." They say, "You are intelligent." Intelligence is something you possess. Yes. (someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So? (break) (looking in dictionary) "Brainwashing: clearing the mind of established ideas by persistent suggestion and indoctrination." *That is . . . (chuckles) We are doing that. They, they are under the impression, "Work hard, earn money and enjoy life." We say, "No. Don't work hard for sense gratification but work hard for self*-realization." Indoctrine. Yep well, any form of education is indoctrination. Indoctrinization. Yes. Any kind of education is. Whatever you teach someone, you teach according to whatever you see as the correct value. Yes. The child goes to the school. His brain is packed up, "I shall play all day." He likes that, to play, but it is indoctrinization that "No, you should read. You must become graduate." Yes. And whatever country he's born in, he has to learn the culture of that country; he's indoctrinated. Apart from that, education is required. The child wants to play, but we have to educate him that "No, play is not all. You have to be educated." Yeah. Similarly, this animal life—eating, sleeping, mating—this is already there. No. We say: "Not only this, you have to realize God." This kind of brainwash is required. If we do not understand God, then what is the difference between you and dog? He knows how to eat, how to sleep. He doesn't require any high education . . . (indistinct) . . . how to eat. Everyone knows how to eat, how to use sex. Nobody requires any university education. Simply ignorance. When the animal enjoy sex, they know which part of the body has to be used. They don't have to be taught. It is not, there is no need of education. He knows it. And these rascals, they are presenting Freud's philosophy, sex. Just see how they are wasting time. *They have so many books now on so*-called sex education, so many of them. Simply wasting time. There is a story about this. One man was canvassing, hawking. Hawker? Yes, hawker. So he was, "Here is a book of cow protection," cow protection. He has written one book to take care of the cows. So when old man called him, "What you are selling?" Now, "I am selling this book." "What is that book?" "Maintaining the cow." So, "Why you are selling? First of all you give this book to your mother, because you are no better than cow, so she will learn how to give you protection." That means he wanted to impress upon him that, "Cow protection doesn't require any education. You have written a book? So you are such a rascal, cow intelligence. Better give this book to your mother. She will maintain you. Don't sell it. Everyone knows how to give cow protection." So similarly, this sex literature, there is no need of sex literature. No. Sex literature is there in Sanskrit also. That is how to restrict sex. For what purpose one should indulge in sex, that is called Kāma-śāstra . I have seen this Freud philosophy became so prominent that sometimes in the year . . . 1940s maybe, so one young woman was travelling, and another young man was travelling. So they began to discuss about sex very openly. And both of them unknown. Still, they engaged themselves in discussing the sex literature, without any shame. *Pseudo*-intellectuals. Huh. *Pseudo*-intellectuals. Shameless. Yes. Young boy, young girl, they began to discuss on sex openly as scientific. What is this scientific? (laughs) Scientific means after discussing for some time you propose that, "Let us enjoy sex." That's all. It is common thing in your country—unknown girl, unknown boy, and talk for some time, "Let us go to some restaurant," and then talk more intimately, and then sex. That's the whole social system. "Would you like to sex?" And who is the young man, young . . . who'll deny it? I know this. During ball dance they embrace one another, another's wife, another's husband, and in ball dance . . . or there are side rooms. Naturally they'll feel sex, and they go to the side room and discuss. Is it not? Yes. The only reason they go to a dance is to pick up some woman for sex life. That's all. Yes. Most of my friends used to go out specifically to find some woman to have sex. This dancing club means this. (long pause) (end) Conversation -- November 4, 1976, Vrndavana . . . one hour. Just after it gets dark. Huh? Just after sun does down it gets a little dark. Then at what time it should be happened? You can inquire from other temple. Last winter we had 6:30. With the season it changes little. So is there any regulation given in the Pañjikā when? Just . . . only regulation given for timing is that for Deity going to rest at noon. The Deity should take rest at noon, two yāmas after sunrise, and take rest in evening, one yāma after sunset. But it didn't say anything about the other āratis . But at six hours . . . The ārati , it is called sandhya ārati. Sandhya ārati means just in the evening. So when evening time is there . . . after sunset it is not evening. What is the time of sunset nowadays? Bring Pañjikā . Around 5:30, isn't it? What is the time of sunset? It's about 5:30, approximately. 5:30, then one hour after. Then 6:30 is all right. 6:30 is all right. Okay. So in that case, when would you like to come and visit? No, 6:30. Now you're coming six till seven. 5:30 to 6:30? We shall come . . . 6:30–7:00, ārati will go on. So we can come half an hour before. 5:30. 5:30. 5:30. Instead of coming there at six, I come there 5:30. And one hour, then 6:30 begins. Make that like that. That will be very nice. So why you were not present in the meeting? I was there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . That's all right. I think you can understand Hindi? No. I am trying to. I can understand little bit. I am practicing. You should learn Hindi, Bengali. You are learning? He talks . . . when he talks, he talks a little fast, when he reads the anuvāda . Who? Ah, Prem Yogi. Ah, he is . . . but I am studying. He is translating nice. He is learned. We wanted to ask you about . . . he was training up Prem Yogi to do the editing, but there's no one to do the transcribing. We're probably going to . . . we'll have to send the tapes . . . Transcribing? No, why? Why can't Pālikā do? She can do it? I don't know. Yes, she can do. Pālikā can do it? That will be all right, then. You also learn. Typing. Yes. Yes. In case there is none, you should do. Pālikā's done it before. No, Pālikā can do. I know that. She is expert. *She is expert in typing. Amongst the women, she is expert typist. She is expert in so many things. Only defect is that she is woman. (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa says, striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyaḥ : "Never mind woman. If she is devotee, she also comes to Me." Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā , "no one barred." Especially naming striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśya te 'pi yānti parām ( BG 9.32). Everyone is to be . . . Kṛṣṇa is so kind. There is no restriction. Everyone is open to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya*-nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). This is open to all living entities. There is no restriction. And so long this body is there, material, there is distinction between this and that. Otherwise, when you come to the platform of spiritual understanding, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18), then there is no restriction. Higher, lower, this, that, so many. Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). So any newspaper propaganda against us? No. One complaint is standing, that with our Life Members and others, subscriber, they always complain they are not getting paper, they are not getting book. That is the general complaint. They send regularly. We are sending. But many times the mail is stolen, magazines, Back to Godhead . That is a fact. Yes, it is very difficult. Because there are so many nice picture. I have seen. When I was printing my books in a Delhi press, so one peon was coming there to work part time as compositor. So his mailbag he will put somewhere in the press, and he will being composing. And all other compositors, they'll check the mail bag, and if something is attractive, they will take. I have seen it. Our magazine is so . . . It's so beautiful. . . . full of pictures, so naturally, as soon as they . . . the pictorial and . . . they take it. Yes, that's the trouble. So we have a system in some towns. We find one member who is very much liking us, and we send all the magazines to him, and he goes, sends his . . . given by hand, to all the other members in that city. That is not possible. We are doing that in some cities, but we don't have in all cities such a system. That system works. How it is possible? Some are living ten miles from him. It is not possible. No, that is happening in India, not in other countries. In your country the peons are very responsible. Yes, the post office is also very good. *Here they never satisfied. This is the modern mentality. Nobody is satisfied with his income. He wants more money. And for that purpose he can do anything rascal. I have seen it. This peon puts his bag without any responsibility. Letters are strewn, and maybe some letters stolen. Who can say? And he came to earn some money. For some time he'll compose and get some labor. And in Calcutta I have seen all the office peons, they are sleeping in Dalhousie Square, the peon book as the pillow, for hours together. And when they, after distributing, when they return to the office it is going to be closed. And if they are asked explanation, "Why you are so late?" "Oh, he was not there. I had to wait three hours," and so on, so on, so on. Everyone is dishonest. Nobody is working honestly, especially in India, because poverty*-stricken. If they can sleep two hours he thinks that he has made some profit. Formerly people were God conscious. They did not like to cheat that, "God will be displeased." Now they don't believe in God, so they can do anything. Now that we've become devotee . . . "Everyone is God." . . . if we sleep for two hours we think we have wasted two hours. *That should be. Sleeping is waste of time. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau : we have to conquer over eating and sleeping and mating. Just the opposite to the karmīs . They want to increase their eating. *Formerly, when I was in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple, there was a khol manufacturer here. Is he here still? Khol manufacturer? He supplied me khol very nice, very big. This khol was taken to Germany or . . . What was his name? I forgot. There is one man here. In here? One man is here, but I don't know if it's the same one. Can you call him? Yes. I think he's just a repairman though. Whatever he may be. Yes. We must have very good khol . You have no good khol . I had one under repair. I had two under repair with him. But he takes a long time. I am waiting now for repair. So you can call him. Okay. You'd like to meet him? Yes. If the same man, then I can ask him to prepare some khol . Ours get damaged. The shells or . . .? They break them so easily. They cannot control them. The shell, the skin, anything, always break. You should make some padded covers for them. See they get some padded cover. Who is doing that? Everyone is irresponsible. Even with that, they break. But at least it helps the chances they'll survive. The one thing is that they neglect that rings. That ring and the strap, if it is . . . that will never do. As soon as they khol . . . some rope, bās . Usually what breaks is that little leather loop. They have a small loop on each end. But that's what usually breaks. If you want to . . . No, if you make it nicely with chain. I have made it even nicely with a cord, with a ring, and the proper straps. But they put it like this and like this, and they bang it the wrong way. This is my problem. I can't stop it, no matter what we do. You just bring them out for ārati and then have somebody take them back, and they won't get broken. Haṁsadūta was doing that with his mṛdaṅgas . I was also doing that. The mṛdaṅgas are in there all day long. Any karmī that comes in, they beat the drum and mess around. The little kids go in and they do the same thing. I've seen them. You should take them out of the temple. Let them be there for kīrtana and then take them away and store them in your room. There's no kartālas now, either, because everybody steals them. These two rooms can be used for keeping. Kartālas are locked away every time, and the drums were done . . . that was done until they were broken. Or you can just put them in the tourist room. They'll be safe. Or in the pūjārī room. Yeah, I'll arrange for that. Everything depends on organized management. (pause) Give some . . . Shall I put . . . some gentlemen, some bābājīs , are coming now, from Mathura. Aiye, aiye. Betiye . May I help Prabhupāda? Yes. Betiye . (end) Conversation -- November 4, 1976, Vrndavana . . . one hour. Just after it gets dark. Huh? Just after sun does down it gets a little dark. Then at what time it should be happened? You can inquire from other temple. Last winter we had 6:30. With the season it changes little. So is there any regulation given in the Pañjikā when? Just . . . only regulation given for timing is that for Deity going to rest at noon. The Deity should take rest at noon, two yāmas after sunrise, and take rest in evening, one yāma after sunset. But it didn't say anything about the other āratis . But at six hours . . . The ārati , it is called sandhya ārati. Sandhya ārati means just in the evening. So when evening time is there . . . after sunset it is not evening. What is the time of sunset nowadays? Bring Pañjikā . Around 5:30, isn't it? What is the time of sunset? It's about 5:30, approximately. 5:30, then one hour after. Then 6:30 is all right. 6:30 is all right. Okay. So in that case, when would you like to come and visit? No, 6:30. Now you're coming six till seven. 5:30 to 6:30? We shall come . . . 6:30–7:00, ārati will go on. So we can come half an hour before. 5:30. 5:30. 5:30. Instead of coming there at six, I come there 5:30. And one hour, then 6:30 begins. Make that like that. That will be very nice. So why you were not present in the meeting? I was there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . That's all right. I think you can understand Hindi? No. I am trying to. I can understand little bit. I am practicing. You should learn Hindi, Bengali. You are learning? He talks . . . when he talks, he talks a little fast, when he reads the anuvāda . Who? Ah, Prem Yogi. Ah, he is . . . but I am studying. He is translating nice. He is learned. We wanted to ask you about . . . he was training up Prem Yogi to do the editing, but there's no one to do the transcribing. We're probably going to . . . we'll have to send the tapes . . . Transcribing? No, why? Why can't Pālikā do? She can do it? I don't know. Yes, she can do. Pālikā can do it? That will be all right, then. You also learn. Typing. Yes. Yes. In case there is none, you should do. Pālikā's done it before. No, Pālikā can do. I know that. She is expert. *She is expert in typing. Amongst the women, she is expert typist. She is expert in so many things. Only defect is that she is woman. (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa says, striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyaḥ : "Never mind woman. If she is devotee, she also comes to Me." Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā , "no one barred." Especially naming striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśya te 'pi yānti parām ( BG 9.32). Everyone is to be . . . Kṛṣṇa is so kind. There is no restriction. Everyone is open to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya*-nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). This is open to all living entities. There is no restriction. And so long this body is there, material, there is distinction between this and that. Otherwise, when you come to the platform of spiritual understanding, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18), then there is no restriction. Higher, lower, this, that, so many. Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). So any newspaper propaganda against us? No. One complaint is standing, that with our Life Members and others, subscriber, they always complain they are not getting paper, they are not getting book. That is the general complaint. They send regularly. We are sending. But many times the mail is stolen, magazines, Back to Godhead . That is a fact. Yes, it is very difficult. Because there are so many nice picture. I have seen. When I was printing my books in a Delhi press, so one peon was coming there to work part time as compositor. So his mailbag he will put somewhere in the press, and he will being composing. And all other compositors, they'll check the mail bag, and if something is attractive, they will take. I have seen it. Our magazine is so . . . It's so beautiful. . . . full of pictures, so naturally, as soon as they . . . the pictorial and . . . they take it. Yes, that's the trouble. So we have a system in some towns. We find one member who is very much liking us, and we send all the magazines to him, and he goes, sends his . . . given by hand, to all the other members in that city. That is not possible. We are doing that in some cities, but we don't have in all cities such a system. That system works. How it is possible? Some are living ten miles from him. It is not possible. No, that is happening in India, not in other countries. In your country the peons are very responsible. Yes, the post office is also very good. *Here they never satisfied. This is the modern mentality. Nobody is satisfied with his income. He wants more money. And for that purpose he can do anything rascal. I have seen it. This peon puts his bag without any responsibility. Letters are strewn, and maybe some letters stolen. Who can say? And he came to earn some money. For some time he'll compose and get some labor. And in Calcutta I have seen all the office peons, they are sleeping in Dalhousie Square, the peon book as the pillow, for hours together. And when they, after distributing, when they return to the office it is going to be closed. And if they are asked explanation, "Why you are so late?" "Oh, he was not there. I had to wait three hours," and so on, so on, so on. Everyone is dishonest. Nobody is working honestly, especially in India, because poverty*-stricken. If they can sleep two hours he thinks that he has made some profit. Formerly people were God conscious. They did not like to cheat that, "God will be displeased." Now they don't believe in God, so they can do anything. Now that we've become devotee . . . "Everyone is God." . . . if we sleep for two hours we think we have wasted two hours. *That should be. Sleeping is waste of time. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau : we have to conquer over eating and sleeping and mating. Just the opposite to the karmīs . They want to increase their eating. *Formerly, when I was in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple, there was a khol manufacturer here. Is he here still? Khol manufacturer? He supplied me khol very nice, very big. This khol was taken to Germany or . . . What was his name? I forgot. There is one man here. In here? One man is here, but I don't know if it's the same one. Can you call him? Yes. I think he's just a repairman though. Whatever he may be. Yes. We must have very good khol . You have no good khol . I had one under repair. I had two under repair with him. But he takes a long time. I am waiting now for repair. So you can call him. Okay. You'd like to meet him? Yes. If the same man, then I can ask him to prepare some khol . Ours get damaged. The shells or . . .? They break them so easily. They cannot control them. The shell, the skin, anything, always break. You should make some padded covers for them. See they get some padded cover. Who is doing that? Everyone is irresponsible. Even with that, they break. But at least it helps the chances they'll survive. The one thing is that they neglect that rings. That ring and the strap, if it is . . . that will never do. As soon as they khol . . . some rope, bās . Usually what breaks is that little leather loop. They have a small loop on each end. But that's what usually breaks. If you want to . . . No, if you make it nicely with chain. I have made it even nicely with a cord, with a ring, and the proper straps. But they put it like this and like this, and they bang it the wrong way. This is my problem. I can't stop it, no matter what we do. You just bring them out for ārati and then have somebody take them back, and they won't get broken. Haṁsadūta was doing that with his mṛdaṅgas . I was also doing that. The mṛdaṅgas are in there all day long. Any karmī that comes in, they beat the drum and mess around. The little kids go in and they do the same thing. I've seen them. You should take them out of the temple. Let them be there for kīrtana and then take them away and store them in your room. There's no kartālas now, either, because everybody steals them. These two rooms can be used for keeping. Kartālas are locked away every time, and the drums were done . . . that was done until they were broken. Or you can just put them in the tourist room. They'll be safe. Or in the pūjārī room. Yeah, I'll arrange for that. Everything depends on organized management. (pause) Give some . . . Shall I put . . . some gentlemen, some bābājīs , are coming now, from Mathura. Aiye, aiye. Betiye . May I help Prabhupāda? Yes. Betiye . (end) Conversation -- November 5, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation About Gurukula) *The modern education means . . . just see what is the disastrous condition. For 531 posts, three lakhs people have applied. How the unemployment . . . this application means they are all educated. Uneducated, they do not apply for any post. That means educated unemployed. This is India's so*-called education. (aside) Without light it is . . . you can open the door. (break) . . . I was finding out yesterday's paper . . . (break) First thing, I wanted to go over the daily schedule. According to the schedule, the boys get up between 3:30 and quarter to four. Why so early? Why 3:30 and quarter to four? That's what time we all get up. We are holding maṅgala-ārati at five. So why 3:30? Well, they do japa before maṅgala-ārati . No, no. It will be too early for them. They first of all . . . They're accustomed to getting up at . . . Eh? They've been getting up at that time for years. If they are accustomed, that is all right. But otherwise it is not needed, so early. When they go to sleep? At 8:15. Oh, then it is all right. Then is all right. At least they must have rest six hours, complete. Oh, they get more than that. Then it is . . . *Then they get ready, 02:45 bathed, dressed, by about 4:10. So they chant japa from 4:10 until five o'clock under the supervision of their teacher. Then ārati , tulasī worship. And after tulasī worship they again have japa up until guru*-pūjā , greeting the Deities. Hmm? From the time tulasī worship is over until the time of greeting the Deities. How long it is? That's an hour and fifteen minutes. Altogether they have japa time amounting to just under two hours. And who . . . they will . . . the small boys, they can devote so much time? Well, these are not small boys. These are . . . Oh, teachers. At least ten years, nine, ten years old. Still . . . Nine years old to fourteen years old. They should be engaged in chanting, not sit down and japa. That will not be possible for them. The problem is that some of the boys are fourteen, fifteen, or thirteen but they should chant japa , because they are required to chant sixteen rounds a day. Many of them are initia . . . Sixteen rounds, it requires, utmost two hours, two and a half hours. Well, two hours is on the schedule, two hours and ten minutes. Chela bangiya . (laughter) (greeting someone) How are you? That's nice. So they have two hours and five minutes of japa . Some boys that are younger, they make a vow to do less, and then they can study. *Some of the younger boys chant six or eight rounds instead of sixteen. They chant that much during that time and then they study. Then they attend the temple program, guru*-pūjā and Bhāgavatam class. And then after that, they go upstairs, wash their clothes and clean the āśrama . That takes them about an hour, to wash their clothes and sweep and cleanse the floor, cleanse the shower room, wash their clothes . . . Now, when they chant the mantras ? *Brahma*-saṁhitā ? Or any . . . Any mantra. At . . . right now they're chanting from nine until 9:30 in the morning with Yaśodānandana Mahārāja. Not in the . . . early in the morning? In the early morning I take some of the boys in the Deity room between 5:30 and six, the boys and the Deities. Deity means temple. Yes. Deity? Means temple. What do you mean, "The Deity room"? *Within the Deity room, when they are bathing the Deities, we are offering the prayers to the Deities, the Brahma*-saṁhitā and Īśopaniṣad . Why? Why? Deity room? Within the Deity room there is no need of chanting. Who told you this? There is no need. Eh? Within the Deity room? You told? No. Then? *Sometimes you . . . unless you said, for installation or at other times when the Deity is being bathed, to chant Brahma*-saṁhitā prayers. No. Within the Deity room there is no business. No business. When we hear the chanting, that's where it's coming from in the morning, in the early morning. Oh. They can chant outside, yes. The Deity bathing or whatever, dressing, may go on. You can chant not within the Deity room. That you can do outside. Then when their reading, writing begins? That begins at 10:15, after prasādam . They take prasādam at 9:30, and then at 10:15 their English class begins. Just after taking prasādam ? Yes. Fifteen minutes after. Hmm. What begins? *English class. That goes for one and a half hours. Then there's math class which goes for forty*-five minutes. *Not continually. They should be given a recess, ten minutes. Then again come to the class. And a class should not be more than forty*-five minutes. One class should not be continued more than forty-five minutes, then ten minutes recess, then begin another class. For the English program it is required, in order for them to have enough time to read and write, then they would require an hour and a half, so they would have two classes. In the meantime, one and half? Yes. You give ten minutes recess. And during the recess what should they do? *Nothing. They'll be free. Nothing to do. Recess means nothing to do. That is brain, I mean to say, rest. All continually you cannot do that. That is not good. Utmost, forty minutes or forty*-five minutes. Then give them ten minutes' freedom. Then begin another. Not more than forty to forty-five minutes at a time, reading, writing. After class, then, by 12:30 they bathe again, second time. They take prasādam first and then bathe? They bathe . . . they take prasādam at 9:00 in the morning, 9:30. Then they have class. Then after class is finished, then they bathe. After class they bathe? Around 12:30. Not needed. After prasādam they should not take bathing at least for four hours. Four hours. They have a schedule where they have dāl , rice and sabjī and cāpāṭi at 9:30 in the morning. Is that what they have in the afternoon? Eh? So when they first take bathing? Uh, when they rise, at around four o'clock. Oh, that's fine. Then they take the prasādam at what time? 9:30. 9:30. So . . . We can take prasādam earlier. No, no, why earlier? Earlier, any breakfast? No. Why not? They are children. They must have some breakfast. They have three meals. One at . . . this is the way the temple program is scheduled. The temple eats at 9:30 in the morning, so the boys also get prasādam at that time because everyone eats the same . . . But early in the morning they should have some . . . at least munch sweetmeat, something like that. Like chewra . Eh? Like chewra and curds, they can take, for example. After taking bath at one o'clock they should take little prasādam . Yes. Early in the morning, just after maṅgala-ārati , they can take something. They must take something. They are taking bathing at what time? In the morning? Eh? Ten to four. Eh? Four o'clock. Four o'clock. So after maṅgala-ārati , the maṅgala-ārati prasādam should be given them, a little sweet. (to other devotees) We hadn't agreed on that . . . (indistinct) Yes, the maṅgala-ārati sweets. Maṅgala-ārati sweets, they should be distributed amongst the children, little sweets. Then they can take 9:30 prasādam . Full prasādam . Yes. Then? Again they are taking bathing at what time? The scheduled next bathing is 12:30. Then what is the . . . 12:30, then? After bathing they take a little prasādam . Yes, that's nice. Then it is all right. Then at 1:30 they take some rest. Yes, that's nice. How long? One hour. That's nice. Then they have Sanskrit class from 2:30 until four. Hmm. 2:30, four, that's all right. One and a half hours. So there should be a recess in between. Hmm? That's one and a half hours, so there should be recess in between. Ten minutes at least. Then at four o'clock the chanting party leaves for the Yamunā procession. In process . . . that's nice. And they return by six for darśana in the temple room. No, let them return by 5:30. 5:30. Can we have the class while we're there? So that we . . . 'cause it takes us . . . (indistinct) Well, we can adjust this but . . . because darśana begins at 5:30, they should be there by . . . No, darśana begins at five . . . 5:30. 5:30. Why? It was at six o'clock in the evening. Originally it was at six o'clock. No, no. The darśana opens at five. No, when you come into the temple room, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Your darśana . No, no, my darśana is different. Public darśana . When the Deity room is opened? At five o'clock in the evening. That's it. Why do you say six? Uh, I meant that when the darśana period for yourself was at six. No, it should be 5:30. 5:30. General darśana is open at five. That's nice. So then the boys would return at 5:30 . . . I think it may be little earlier, no, half an hour. Half an hour it would be, because the ārati is beginning at 6:30 . . . Yes. . . . so the afternoon darśana would be at 4:30. Yes. That we had managed last year. Yes. *So the boys would come for the chanting and recitation of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . What time? 5:30 to 6:30. No, 5:30 we begin class. In that class they can chant. Kīrtana . Yes. Yes. That's nice. And then, at 6:30, there will be ārati and they'll stay for ārati . Then, after ārati , they take a little prasādam and then take rest. That's nice. That's all right. *And as far as everyone's duties are concerned, Rūpa*-vilāsa is the English teacher. He teaches English and math, and, of course, Pradyumna teaches the Sanskrit program. And Dhanurdhara Prabhu has been . . . he works in the āśrama , overseeing the boys . . . Taking care. Yes. And Yaśodānandana Mahārāja will . . . Recitation. Recitation. And I also help with getting the boys through japa and kīrtana and getting them more enthusiastic. That's nice. It's nice to have a sannyāsī involved. Oh, yes. He can be a good example. Very good. And Bhagatjī, grandfather. (laughter) *For feeding. Feeding. Give them sumptuous food so that they may become healthy, nice food. (laughter) Yes. That is also wanted. Children, they must eat sufficiently. Not overeat. Even overeat, that is not wrong for children. And that will be exercise, by going to Yamunā and coming. That will be bodily exercise. This is nice. Do that. Strictly follow. There is no scarcity of space there. Yes. Vṛndāvana is holy place. And there is no government interference, so increase it. Bring more student from all over the world. Then it will be unique. And you also make scheme to get Indian children from aristocratic family. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga*-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate ( BG 6.41). Those who are born in high-class, rich family or Brahmin family, they are not ordinary. But there is no Brahmin family now but the richer section, they can be induced to send their boys to learn Sanskrit and English and Bhagavad-bhakti . They can do business, and whatever they like, they can do later on. But these things, they should be . . . father, mother should be careful. Iska koi program banao, acha ghar ka ladka sab aye. Unko to khane pine ka koi abhav nahi hai. Wo thoda Bhagavad-bhakti sikh le, thoda Sanskrit sikh le, thoda English sikh le, usko kya . . . (indistinct) . . . hai. (Make such a program that boys from aristocratic backgrounds come to the gurukula . They have no problem with food, shelter and clothing. Let them learn the science of devotional service to the Lord, a little Sanskrit, a little English . . . (indistinct) . . .) Bacche kya bahar se ayenge? (Can kids from outside join the gurukula ?) *Kahi se bhi aye, idhar to rahega aur idhar khayega. Kahi se bhi aye. Bahar se ayenge . . . (Let them come from anywhere. They will stay here so it doesn't matter where they come from . . .) just attract all good family, children. Jo ki parishram karke, (Those who earn by toiling very hard,) labour . . . working, they will have to live, they cannot. They cannot become a paṇḍita or spiritually advanced men. They have to work. But if the richer section, they get their sons good character, good devotee . . . Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, ko 'tha putreṇa jātena yo na vidyā na bhaktimān : "What is the use of such son who is neither devotee nor learned?" Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam : "What is the use of blind eyes? It is simply troublesome." So if the aristocratic family, they do not give education in spiritual line, they'll become all hippies, loafer, and drinking and wasting father's money. They should be informed. Usko to phokat me paisa milta hai, usko udayega, baith*-baithke sharab piyega aur usko to chahiye . . . (He gets money without any hard work so he will waste it, engage in drinking and require . . .) (break) I think there must be three, four classes. Three, four classes afterwards, but at present? Ah. If students are in great number, then we shall introduce—otherwise . . . Classes to be arranged according to the number of student increases. That's all. That shall be . . . Now there are two classes. Eh? There are two classes according to age. Kata, according to time and circumstance. In my opinion, Prabhupāda, there should be one period for Hindi classes. That's very nice. *Forty minutes, forty*-five minutes that will be very good for the children. Oh, yes, very good. That is essential. If the Indian students come, they will require some vernacular like that. Hindi class there should be. In Vṛndāvana they will . . . Oh, yes. Do that, Hindi. In Māyāpur there should be Bengali class. And Hindi and Bengali, two language are very close. Yes. Not any other language. Hindi is essential—must be compulsory, Hindi. That is State language. For the Western children also? Oh, yes. Everyone. You should find some time, adjust some time for Hindi. Hindi, Sanskrit, English compulsory. That's all. Then, afterwards we can make other, just elemental mathematics, arithmetic or just that, afterwards, when the regular studies go in the group. Now . . . (indistinct) . . . these three things. By learning Hindi they will . . . (indistinct) And the government also will like that, that foreign students . . . If they can understand the language and they . . . Oh, yes, Hindi is essential. It is not difficult, the same principle as Sanskrit. Reading and writing, that's all. *So far as the financial situation, I've discussed with Bhagatjī, and it seems that the best idea is to open a separate gurukula maintenance account with co*-signers Bhagatjī and Rūpa-vilāsa, so that . . . because there's so much . . . So then some of them, they are getting money. Yes, the parents are sending money. That's all right. Because with the temple there has been confusion. Now the temple, you can make separate account. We have one question about . . . there's one of the boys. His name is Jagaman, and he's a . . . he's a more or less a bad boy. He's had a bad background. His mother's a devotee, and she's a nice devotee, but he's very . . . he terrorizes the other boys. Ācchā ? He misleads them. He lies. How old he is? He's thirteen. So he cannot be . . . he must go back. We cannot spoil other children. They are being spoiled by him. I was thinking, to make an example of him, either we should beat him or send him back. Best thing will be send him back. He's incorrigible. Personally I had that boy with me for two months when I went to South India preaching, and I thought it would be an asset to have a young boy, but he was so misbehaved that it was too much problem. And the same things that he was doing in the beginning with me, telling lies and misbehaving, he is still doing now, and he does not correct himself, never. He has no effort to better his behavior or his conduct. He does not chant his rounds. He rarely comes to the kīrtana , or else when he comes to the kīrtana , he does not chant. He simply plays and makes fun. And it's very . . . he has a very bad influence on the other boys. No, then he should be sent back. Or he can be sent to Bombay to work ordinarily. Or Hyderabad farm, like that. Let him work on the ground. He speaks Bengali. That boy was in Bengal before, and he picked up Bengali a little bit. So he can go. He's very intelligent, but he's just had a bad . . . So he was in Māyāpur? Yes, he was in Māyāpur before. He knows Bengali. He can speak Bengali with us. So he can go with the Māyāpur preaching party as well. We could send him with Bhavānanda Mahārāja. Yes, that will be nice. He knows Bengali. Let him go to Bengal and keep him under Bhavānanda. I think that he'll be a problem wherever he goes. No, Bhavānanda will correct his problem. I think Bhavānanda wouldn't want to take him, because he knows he's a problem. Bhavānanda told me he did not want to see that boy again. Eh? Bhavānanda told me he did not want to see that boy again. In Māyāpur he had some girl . . . In my opinion, the best thing is to make an example and beat him. Yes, send him to farm, work in the field. If he does not work, beat him. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ . Ek baat yaad a gayi. Pehle jo kuch crime karte the, to phasi ya kalapani. To kalapani me Singapore ki taraf ya Malaya phek dete the. Aap unko Hyderabad me bhej dete hai. (laughter) (I remember how criminals used to be sent for lifetime imprisonment or hung until death. For lifetime imprisonment, they were dispatched to Singapore or Malaysia. Similarly, you send them to Hyderabad.) (laughter) Ha. Hyderabad bhejo, usko kaam karao, usko matti khodne ka kaam do. Nahi kare to usko pito. Aise kya hai. (Yes. Send him to Hyderabad—make him work hard and till the ground and if he doesn't listen, then beat him.) He was just in Hyderabad for that ceremony there, and he caused such disruption in the whole temple that I don't think they'd want him there. The thing is, if we beat him here and keep him here, then all the boys will straighten up because they will see that if they go bad, then this will be their punishment. As you think, you can do. But I wanted to engage in farm work, digging. Yes, that is his propensity. Actually it's a fact when he was with me I would try to teach him *Īśopaniṣad* and your purports, which are so clear and simple, but after three or four times explaining the same thing, he would become angry to receive the instruction. No, no. He is meant for śūdra's work. (laughter) And when that boy would be told to watch himself . . . You cannot expect that everyone is Brahmin . No. He has got śūdra mentality, so let him till the ground for Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). He is fit for tilling so let him till and produce grain for Kṛṣṇa. Hyderabad? *Yes. Hard work. He should be given hard work. This gurukula is for high, high*-class Brahmin , kṣatriyas , not for the vaiśyas and śūdras . (Bhagatjī laughs) No, everyone is required for Kṛṣṇa's service, but there . . . that I was describing today. There must be division. Don't put horse before a cart. Race horse before the cart. Eh? Race horse before the . . . Yes, that will not be nice. Vaiśya . . . log (. . . people) will have some betterment . . . Vaiśya is meant for kṛṣi . If you don't teach vaiśyas for this gurukula then how do they do the accounts? No no, we are not taking vaiśyas by birth. Accounts is just a skill. Anyone can learn to do account. No, vaiśya is special work. Yes. Yes. No, accounts are meant for kāyasthas , śūdras . (Indian man laughs) Vaiśyas are meant for producing grain and protecting cows. Yes. According . . . one Englishman used to say: "This clerical job means educated laborer, educated śūdra ." (laughs) Śūdra . . . actually the kāyasthas are counted amongst the śūdras . You know that? In Bengal kāyasthas is the . . . No, no, Bengal. Mean in U.P. In U.P. kāyasthas are śūdras . *And original they are śūdras . The history of Bengali kāyasthas . . . they went with the Brahmins as servant. That is the history. And in Bengal the system is . . . jaat harale kayat. Jiska koi jaat ka thikana nahi chalta, wo kaastha ho gaya. Ye Bengal me aisa bola jata hai, jaat harale kayat . . . (if you lose your caste, then you are a kāyastha . One who cannot follow the principles of his respective varṇa or class, becomes a kāyastha . This is the system in Bengal.) Actually it is . . . if some low*-class man, he becomes rich, then he's taken into the kāyastha community. Anyone who cannot stick to the principle of caste system, he becomes a kāyastha . *Varṇa*-saṅkara . Ah yes. Jaat harale kayat. Ye Bengal me hai. (If you lose your caste, then you are a kāyastha . This is the system in Bengal.) Some of them are kṣatriyas and some of them . . . like that. But that is not essential. That is all gone. Now, if one cannot take education, he can be used in farm work, little hard work. *Bhakti*-kīrtana is another problem. Hmm? *Bhakti*-kīrtana , Saurabha's boy. He is only eight, but he is becoming like a street boy. So let him go to farm working. Farm working is for suitable . . . He likes that. He'll play with cows. He likes dung. (laughter) What is that? He likes dung. That's nice. Let him take care. He should take care. Therefore we must have all these engagement. He'll be encouraged to take care of the cows. But he's not in gurukula . How can you send him? He is with Saurabha. Saurabha left him for five days. Saurabha is keeping him. If the father takes care, that's all right. Otherwise he can go to Hyderabad. Hyderabad should be for gṛhasthas , for plowing, for growing, and flowers, like that. No education required. He is not interested in education. Not at all. No, no education . . . that is waste of . . . for such boys who are not interested, why they should be enforced, education? They are not meant for that. Education is for higher brain, sober brain. And not that everyone has to become literate. It is not required. He can do other work. Yes. Prabhupāda means that according to the nature, you engage them. *Yes. Guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ . "You can do this? All right, do it. Why you should be forced to learn Sanskrit? Not necessary. Not necessary." What of a boy who does the chanting nicely and the kīrtana nicely but doesn't do school work nicely? Hmm? What of a boy who does the japa very nicely and . . . Well, japa . . . whether his father is doing japa nicely, that is also doubtful, what to speak of children. Japa , children cannot . . . that should not be taken very seriously. Whatever he can do, that's all right. We should enforce, we should . . . but not that if he does not immediately, he should be rejected. No. *You've often said the first*-class intelligent men are the brāhmaṇas , second-class intelligent men are the kṣatriyas . . . *So we have to train like that, guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ , not that everyone should be Sanskrit scholar. Why? It is not necessary. There are so many other things. *The inclination depends on guṇa*-karma . *Shobai korbe jomidari, ke korbe mubedari. Sab zamindar ho gaya to phir mubedari kaun karega. (If everyone becomes a landlord then who will become the servant.) Although by nature we should not enforce something. We should see for which work he is suitable, you should engage him. And we must have all departments of work—the weaving department, the plowing department, the cow*-keeping department, the Sanskrit department, the English department, the trading department. We should have all the departments. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Head, arms, belly and legs. Yes. Whichever suitable, that . . . one must be suitable for any of these. It is the guide's intelligence: for which purpose he is suitable, engage him, like that. That is required. Not that everyone has to become a big scholar in Sanskrit. That is not required. Let him come to gurukula , but if he is not suitable . . . gurukula , this . . . so far character is con . . . that is for everyone. Just like early rise in the morning, chanting, and going to the . . . what is the objection? Anyone can do it. That is practice. And for working, if he is not suitable for higher education, let him go to the farm, take care of the cows grow food, flowers, fruits, eat, and dance and chant. Chanting, dancing, everyone will take part. There is no doubt. How to mend him from lies? He speaks lies. Eh? How to mend him from lies? That is by your good association. What lies he tells, don't believe him at all. That's all. Take him that he speaks only lies. Then don't believe. Whatever he says, you force him to do. Take him that he speaks only lies. Why should you consult him? He's a liar. But see that he's working, that's all. Now we are getting so much land, we can develop. We can utilize everyone's service. That requires brain. Not that "He cannot do this, therefore reject him"—no, engage him in some other . . . One other point I want to make, and that is that until the construction is completed, I think we should wait . . . There is ample place now where can live. But I mean to bring more boys we should wait until the construction . . . Why? Let them come. It is already there. It is not that the guesthouse is all filled up. Let them come. As many as possible? Why not? Okay. *Let them come. And arrangement should be made when it is . . . if Vṛndāvana is too hot, at that time we can send them to Mahabaleshvara, or if we get that Madras place, that is very cooling, Nilgiri Hills. That will be good recreation for them. They should be kept quite comfortably and built up, their character, education. That is wanted. There is need of some good first*-class men, ideal men. The world is full of rogues and thieves and bad character. Ye jo Sarasvati vidyalaya, ye log kya kar rahe hai? (What are they doing, these Sarasvatī-vidyālaya people?) Shiksharthi nahi, vidyalaya khali padha hua hai Prabhupāda. (There are no teachers, the school is empty Prabhupāda.) To kyu hum log thoda le, hum log . . . (So why don't we acquire it, we can . . .) *Hume to aj . . . plan kye the . . . (indistinct) . . . panch che mahine ke liye le le. Char*-panch mahine ke liye bacche ate hai. (We had planned to acquire it for 5 to 6 months. Kids come here for 4 to 5 months.) *I just told you that building, that Śiśu*-vidyālaya, Sarasvatī *Śiśu*-vidyālaya, you saw it with Guṇārṇava? Yes. That's it. Prabhupāda asks about that. Oh. But they said no. Who said? Guṇārṇava went to see them, Mr . . . what's his name. You cannot send Guṇārṇava. He is not fit for this purpose. You should go yourself. Okay. *Kya wo padha hai, kya unka buddhi nahi. Hum log ko dede hum abhi Sarasvati vidyalaya bana de, ladki log ke liye. Sab lifeless hai. Kuch karega nahi aur kuch dusro ko karne ka sahaya nahi karega. Ab ye Dhanuka ka ye jo hai, kya kuch kaam nahi hota, padha hai. (What are they doing, don't they have any intelligence? Let them give it to us and make it into a real Sarasvatī*-vidyālaya, for the girls. They are all lifeless. They will neither do anything themselves nor help others to do something. This Dhanuka āśrama , what are they doing?) Sanskrit school hai, bacche padhte hai waha pe. Kal panchvi . . . (indistinct) . . . hui . . . (indistinct) . . . Dharma sangha, unka naam rakha hai Dharma sangha. (There is a Sanskrit school. Yesterday fifth grade . . . (indistinct) . . . they named it Dharma sangha .) Wo kya karte hai, baccho ke? (What do they do, those kids?) Bacche padhte hai sanskrit, bis marks ka exam dete hai . . . (Children study Sanskrit, write an exam of twenty marks . . .) Kitne bacche hai? (How many students are there?) Kafi hai. Pacchis tees ladke hai. (Quite a few. 25 to 30 boys are there.) Tab to thik hai. (Then it's okay.) Ha. Sanskrit padhate hai baccho ko. Unke kuch bacche Vaishnav bhi ho gaye hai, sadhu bhi ho gaye hai Vaishnav. (Yes. They teach Sanskrit to the kids. Some of them have become Vaiṣṇava saints.) Tab to thik hai. (Then it's okay.) (break) That's our report, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's our report. That's all right. Do that. Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- November 5, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation About Gurukula) *The modern education means . . . just see what is the disastrous condition. For 531 posts, three lakhs people have applied. How the unemployment . . . this application means they are all educated. Uneducated, they do not apply for any post. That means educated unemployed. This is India's so*-called education. (aside) Without light it is . . . you can open the door. (break) . . . I was finding out yesterday's paper . . . (break) First thing, I wanted to go over the daily schedule. According to the schedule, the boys get up between 3:30 and quarter to four. Why so early? Why 3:30 and quarter to four? That's what time we all get up. We are holding maṅgala-ārati at five. So why 3:30? Well, they do japa before maṅgala-ārati . No, no. It will be too early for them. They first of all . . . They're accustomed to getting up at . . . Eh? They've been getting up at that time for years. If they are accustomed, that is all right. But otherwise it is not needed, so early. When they go to sleep? At 8:15. Oh, then it is all right. Then is all right. At least they must have rest six hours, complete. Oh, they get more than that. Then it is . . . *Then they get ready, 02:45 bathed, dressed, by about 4:10. So they chant japa from 4:10 until five o'clock under the supervision of their teacher. Then ārati , tulasī worship. And after tulasī worship they again have japa up until guru*-pūjā , greeting the Deities. Hmm? From the time tulasī worship is over until the time of greeting the Deities. How long it is? That's an hour and fifteen minutes. Altogether they have japa time amounting to just under two hours. And who . . . they will . . . the small boys, they can devote so much time? Well, these are not small boys. These are . . . Oh, teachers. At least ten years, nine, ten years old. Still . . . Nine years old to fourteen years old. They should be engaged in chanting, not sit down and japa. That will not be possible for them. The problem is that some of the boys are fourteen, fifteen, or thirteen but they should chant japa , because they are required to chant sixteen rounds a day. Many of them are initia . . . Sixteen rounds, it requires, utmost two hours, two and a half hours. Well, two hours is on the schedule, two hours and ten minutes. Chela bangiya . (laughter) (greeting someone) How are you? That's nice. So they have two hours and five minutes of japa . Some boys that are younger, they make a vow to do less, and then they can study. *Some of the younger boys chant six or eight rounds instead of sixteen. They chant that much during that time and then they study. Then they attend the temple program, guru*-pūjā and Bhāgavatam class. And then after that, they go upstairs, wash their clothes and clean the āśrama . That takes them about an hour, to wash their clothes and sweep and cleanse the floor, cleanse the shower room, wash their clothes . . . Now, when they chant the mantras ? *Brahma*-saṁhitā ? Or any . . . Any mantra. At . . . right now they're chanting from nine until 9:30 in the morning with Yaśodānandana Mahārāja. Not in the . . . early in the morning? In the early morning I take some of the boys in the Deity room between 5:30 and six, the boys and the Deities. Deity means temple. Yes. Deity? Means temple. What do you mean, "The Deity room"? *Within the Deity room, when they are bathing the Deities, we are offering the prayers to the Deities, the Brahma*-saṁhitā and Īśopaniṣad . Why? Why? Deity room? Within the Deity room there is no need of chanting. Who told you this? There is no need. Eh? Within the Deity room? You told? No. Then? *Sometimes you . . . unless you said, for installation or at other times when the Deity is being bathed, to chant Brahma*-saṁhitā prayers. No. Within the Deity room there is no business. No business. When we hear the chanting, that's where it's coming from in the morning, in the early morning. Oh. They can chant outside, yes. The Deity bathing or whatever, dressing, may go on. You can chant not within the Deity room. That you can do outside. Then when their reading, writing begins? That begins at 10:15, after prasādam . They take prasādam at 9:30, and then at 10:15 their English class begins. Just after taking prasādam ? Yes. Fifteen minutes after. Hmm. What begins? *English class. That goes for one and a half hours. Then there's math class which goes for forty*-five minutes. *Not continually. They should be given a recess, ten minutes. Then again come to the class. And a class should not be more than forty*-five minutes. One class should not be continued more than forty-five minutes, then ten minutes recess, then begin another class. For the English program it is required, in order for them to have enough time to read and write, then they would require an hour and a half, so they would have two classes. In the meantime, one and half? Yes. You give ten minutes recess. And during the recess what should they do? *Nothing. They'll be free. Nothing to do. Recess means nothing to do. That is brain, I mean to say, rest. All continually you cannot do that. That is not good. Utmost, forty minutes or forty*-five minutes. Then give them ten minutes' freedom. Then begin another. Not more than forty to forty-five minutes at a time, reading, writing. After class, then, by 12:30 they bathe again, second time. They take prasādam first and then bathe? They bathe . . . they take prasādam at 9:00 in the morning, 9:30. Then they have class. Then after class is finished, then they bathe. After class they bathe? Around 12:30. Not needed. After prasādam they should not take bathing at least for four hours. Four hours. They have a schedule where they have dāl , rice and sabjī and cāpāṭi at 9:30 in the morning. Is that what they have in the afternoon? Eh? So when they first take bathing? Uh, when they rise, at around four o'clock. Oh, that's fine. Then they take the prasādam at what time? 9:30. 9:30. So . . . We can take prasādam earlier. No, no, why earlier? Earlier, any breakfast? No. Why not? They are children. They must have some breakfast. They have three meals. One at . . . this is the way the temple program is scheduled. The temple eats at 9:30 in the morning, so the boys also get prasādam at that time because everyone eats the same . . . But early in the morning they should have some . . . at least munch sweetmeat, something like that. Like chewra . Eh? Like chewra and curds, they can take, for example. After taking bath at one o'clock they should take little prasādam . Yes. Early in the morning, just after maṅgala-ārati , they can take something. They must take something. They are taking bathing at what time? In the morning? Eh? Ten to four. Eh? Four o'clock. Four o'clock. So after maṅgala-ārati , the maṅgala-ārati prasādam should be given them, a little sweet. (to other devotees) We hadn't agreed on that . . . (indistinct) Yes, the maṅgala-ārati sweets. Maṅgala-ārati sweets, they should be distributed amongst the children, little sweets. Then they can take 9:30 prasādam . Full prasādam . Yes. Then? Again they are taking bathing at what time? The scheduled next bathing is 12:30. Then what is the . . . 12:30, then? After bathing they take a little prasādam . Yes, that's nice. Then it is all right. Then at 1:30 they take some rest. Yes, that's nice. How long? One hour. That's nice. Then they have Sanskrit class from 2:30 until four. Hmm. 2:30, four, that's all right. One and a half hours. So there should be a recess in between. Hmm? That's one and a half hours, so there should be recess in between. Ten minutes at least. Then at four o'clock the chanting party leaves for the Yamunā procession. In process . . . that's nice. And they return by six for darśana in the temple room. No, let them return by 5:30. 5:30. Can we have the class while we're there? So that we . . . 'cause it takes us . . . (indistinct) Well, we can adjust this but . . . because darśana begins at 5:30, they should be there by . . . No, darśana begins at five . . . 5:30. 5:30. Why? It was at six o'clock in the evening. Originally it was at six o'clock. No, no. The darśana opens at five. No, when you come into the temple room, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Your darśana . No, no, my darśana is different. Public darśana . When the Deity room is opened? At five o'clock in the evening. That's it. Why do you say six? Uh, I meant that when the darśana period for yourself was at six. No, it should be 5:30. 5:30. General darśana is open at five. That's nice. So then the boys would return at 5:30 . . . I think it may be little earlier, no, half an hour. Half an hour it would be, because the ārati is beginning at 6:30 . . . Yes. . . . so the afternoon darśana would be at 4:30. Yes. That we had managed last year. Yes. *So the boys would come for the chanting and recitation of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . What time? 5:30 to 6:30. No, 5:30 we begin class. In that class they can chant. Kīrtana . Yes. Yes. That's nice. And then, at 6:30, there will be ārati and they'll stay for ārati . Then, after ārati , they take a little prasādam and then take rest. That's nice. That's all right. *And as far as everyone's duties are concerned, Rūpa*-vilāsa is the English teacher. He teaches English and math, and, of course, Pradyumna teaches the Sanskrit program. And Dhanurdhara Prabhu has been . . . he works in the āśrama , overseeing the boys . . . Taking care. Yes. And Yaśodānandana Mahārāja will . . . Recitation. Recitation. And I also help with getting the boys through japa and kīrtana and getting them more enthusiastic. That's nice. It's nice to have a sannyāsī involved. Oh, yes. He can be a good example. Very good. And Bhagatjī, grandfather. (laughter) *For feeding. Feeding. Give them sumptuous food so that they may become healthy, nice food. (laughter) Yes. That is also wanted. Children, they must eat sufficiently. Not overeat. Even overeat, that is not wrong for children. And that will be exercise, by going to Yamunā and coming. That will be bodily exercise. This is nice. Do that. Strictly follow. There is no scarcity of space there. Yes. Vṛndāvana is holy place. And there is no government interference, so increase it. Bring more student from all over the world. Then it will be unique. And you also make scheme to get Indian children from aristocratic family. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga*-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate ( BG 6.41). Those who are born in high-class, rich family or Brahmin family, they are not ordinary. But there is no Brahmin family now but the richer section, they can be induced to send their boys to learn Sanskrit and English and Bhagavad-bhakti . They can do business, and whatever they like, they can do later on. But these things, they should be . . . father, mother should be careful. Iska koi program banao, acha ghar ka ladka sab aye. Unko to khane pine ka koi abhav nahi hai. Wo thoda Bhagavad-bhakti sikh le, thoda Sanskrit sikh le, thoda English sikh le, usko kya . . . (indistinct) . . . hai. (Make such a program that boys from aristocratic backgrounds come to the gurukula . They have no problem with food, shelter and clothing. Let them learn the science of devotional service to the Lord, a little Sanskrit, a little English . . . (indistinct) . . .) Bacche kya bahar se ayenge? (Can kids from outside join the gurukula ?) *Kahi se bhi aye, idhar to rahega aur idhar khayega. Kahi se bhi aye. Bahar se ayenge . . . (Let them come from anywhere. They will stay here so it doesn't matter where they come from . . .) just attract all good family, children. Jo ki parishram karke, (Those who earn by toiling very hard,) labour . . . working, they will have to live, they cannot. They cannot become a paṇḍita or spiritually advanced men. They have to work. But if the richer section, they get their sons good character, good devotee . . . Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, ko 'tha putreṇa jātena yo na vidyā na bhaktimān : "What is the use of such son who is neither devotee nor learned?" Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam : "What is the use of blind eyes? It is simply troublesome." So if the aristocratic family, they do not give education in spiritual line, they'll become all hippies, loafer, and drinking and wasting father's money. They should be informed. Usko to phokat me paisa milta hai, usko udayega, baith*-baithke sharab piyega aur usko to chahiye . . . (He gets money without any hard work so he will waste it, engage in drinking and require . . .) (break) I think there must be three, four classes. Three, four classes afterwards, but at present? Ah. If students are in great number, then we shall introduce—otherwise . . . Classes to be arranged according to the number of student increases. That's all. That shall be . . . Now there are two classes. Eh? There are two classes according to age. Kata, according to time and circumstance. In my opinion, Prabhupāda, there should be one period for Hindi classes. That's very nice. *Forty minutes, forty*-five minutes that will be very good for the children. Oh, yes, very good. That is essential. If the Indian students come, they will require some vernacular like that. Hindi class there should be. In Vṛndāvana they will . . . Oh, yes. Do that, Hindi. In Māyāpur there should be Bengali class. And Hindi and Bengali, two language are very close. Yes. Not any other language. Hindi is essential—must be compulsory, Hindi. That is State language. For the Western children also? Oh, yes. Everyone. You should find some time, adjust some time for Hindi. Hindi, Sanskrit, English compulsory. That's all. Then, afterwards we can make other, just elemental mathematics, arithmetic or just that, afterwards, when the regular studies go in the group. Now . . . (indistinct) . . . these three things. By learning Hindi they will . . . (indistinct) And the government also will like that, that foreign students . . . If they can understand the language and they . . . Oh, yes, Hindi is essential. It is not difficult, the same principle as Sanskrit. Reading and writing, that's all. *So far as the financial situation, I've discussed with Bhagatjī, and it seems that the best idea is to open a separate gurukula maintenance account with co*-signers Bhagatjī and Rūpa-vilāsa, so that . . . because there's so much . . . So then some of them, they are getting money. Yes, the parents are sending money. That's all right. Because with the temple there has been confusion. Now the temple, you can make separate account. We have one question about . . . there's one of the boys. His name is Jagaman, and he's a . . . he's a more or less a bad boy. He's had a bad background. His mother's a devotee, and she's a nice devotee, but he's very . . . he terrorizes the other boys. Ācchā ? He misleads them. He lies. How old he is? He's thirteen. So he cannot be . . . he must go back. We cannot spoil other children. They are being spoiled by him. I was thinking, to make an example of him, either we should beat him or send him back. Best thing will be send him back. He's incorrigible. Personally I had that boy with me for two months when I went to South India preaching, and I thought it would be an asset to have a young boy, but he was so misbehaved that it was too much problem. And the same things that he was doing in the beginning with me, telling lies and misbehaving, he is still doing now, and he does not correct himself, never. He has no effort to better his behavior or his conduct. He does not chant his rounds. He rarely comes to the kīrtana , or else when he comes to the kīrtana , he does not chant. He simply plays and makes fun. And it's very . . . he has a very bad influence on the other boys. No, then he should be sent back. Or he can be sent to Bombay to work ordinarily. Or Hyderabad farm, like that. Let him work on the ground. He speaks Bengali. That boy was in Bengal before, and he picked up Bengali a little bit. So he can go. He's very intelligent, but he's just had a bad . . . So he was in Māyāpur? Yes, he was in Māyāpur before. He knows Bengali. He can speak Bengali with us. So he can go with the Māyāpur preaching party as well. We could send him with Bhavānanda Mahārāja. Yes, that will be nice. He knows Bengali. Let him go to Bengal and keep him under Bhavānanda. I think that he'll be a problem wherever he goes. No, Bhavānanda will correct his problem. I think Bhavānanda wouldn't want to take him, because he knows he's a problem. Bhavānanda told me he did not want to see that boy again. Eh? Bhavānanda told me he did not want to see that boy again. In Māyāpur he had some girl . . . In my opinion, the best thing is to make an example and beat him. Yes, send him to farm, work in the field. If he does not work, beat him. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ . Ek baat yaad a gayi. Pehle jo kuch crime karte the, to phasi ya kalapani. To kalapani me Singapore ki taraf ya Malaya phek dete the. Aap unko Hyderabad me bhej dete hai. (laughter) (I remember how criminals used to be sent for lifetime imprisonment or hung until death. For lifetime imprisonment, they were dispatched to Singapore or Malaysia. Similarly, you send them to Hyderabad.) (laughter) Ha. Hyderabad bhejo, usko kaam karao, usko matti khodne ka kaam do. Nahi kare to usko pito. Aise kya hai. (Yes. Send him to Hyderabad—make him work hard and till the ground and if he doesn't listen, then beat him.) He was just in Hyderabad for that ceremony there, and he caused such disruption in the whole temple that I don't think they'd want him there. The thing is, if we beat him here and keep him here, then all the boys will straighten up because they will see that if they go bad, then this will be their punishment. As you think, you can do. But I wanted to engage in farm work, digging. Yes, that is his propensity. Actually it's a fact when he was with me I would try to teach him *Īśopaniṣad* and your purports, which are so clear and simple, but after three or four times explaining the same thing, he would become angry to receive the instruction. No, no. He is meant for śūdra's work. (laughter) And when that boy would be told to watch himself . . . You cannot expect that everyone is Brahmin . No. He has got śūdra mentality, so let him till the ground for Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). He is fit for tilling so let him till and produce grain for Kṛṣṇa. Hyderabad? *Yes. Hard work. He should be given hard work. This gurukula is for high, high*-class Brahmin , kṣatriyas , not for the vaiśyas and śūdras . (Bhagatjī laughs) No, everyone is required for Kṛṣṇa's service, but there . . . that I was describing today. There must be division. Don't put horse before a cart. Race horse before the cart. Eh? Race horse before the . . . Yes, that will not be nice. Vaiśya . . . log (. . . people) will have some betterment . . . Vaiśya is meant for kṛṣi . If you don't teach vaiśyas for this gurukula then how do they do the accounts? No no, we are not taking vaiśyas by birth. Accounts is just a skill. Anyone can learn to do account. No, vaiśya is special work. Yes. Yes. No, accounts are meant for kāyasthas , śūdras . (Indian man laughs) Vaiśyas are meant for producing grain and protecting cows. Yes. According . . . one Englishman used to say: "This clerical job means educated laborer, educated śūdra ." (laughs) Śūdra . . . actually the kāyasthas are counted amongst the śūdras . You know that? In Bengal kāyasthas is the . . . No, no, Bengal. Mean in U.P. In U.P. kāyasthas are śūdras . *And original they are śūdras . The history of Bengali kāyasthas . . . they went with the Brahmins as servant. That is the history. And in Bengal the system is . . . jaat harale kayat. Jiska koi jaat ka thikana nahi chalta, wo kaastha ho gaya. Ye Bengal me aisa bola jata hai, jaat harale kayat . . . (if you lose your caste, then you are a kāyastha . One who cannot follow the principles of his respective varṇa or class, becomes a kāyastha . This is the system in Bengal.) Actually it is . . . if some low*-class man, he becomes rich, then he's taken into the kāyastha community. Anyone who cannot stick to the principle of caste system, he becomes a kāyastha . *Varṇa*-saṅkara . Ah yes. Jaat harale kayat. Ye Bengal me hai. (If you lose your caste, then you are a kāyastha . This is the system in Bengal.) Some of them are kṣatriyas and some of them . . . like that. But that is not essential. That is all gone. Now, if one cannot take education, he can be used in farm work, little hard work. *Bhakti*-kīrtana is another problem. Hmm? *Bhakti*-kīrtana , Saurabha's boy. He is only eight, but he is becoming like a street boy. So let him go to farm working. Farm working is for suitable . . . He likes that. He'll play with cows. He likes dung. (laughter) What is that? He likes dung. That's nice. Let him take care. He should take care. Therefore we must have all these engagement. He'll be encouraged to take care of the cows. But he's not in gurukula . How can you send him? He is with Saurabha. Saurabha left him for five days. Saurabha is keeping him. If the father takes care, that's all right. Otherwise he can go to Hyderabad. Hyderabad should be for gṛhasthas , for plowing, for growing, and flowers, like that. No education required. He is not interested in education. Not at all. No, no education . . . that is waste of . . . for such boys who are not interested, why they should be enforced, education? They are not meant for that. Education is for higher brain, sober brain. And not that everyone has to become literate. It is not required. He can do other work. Yes. Prabhupāda means that according to the nature, you engage them. *Yes. Guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ . "You can do this? All right, do it. Why you should be forced to learn Sanskrit? Not necessary. Not necessary." What of a boy who does the chanting nicely and the kīrtana nicely but doesn't do school work nicely? Hmm? What of a boy who does the japa very nicely and . . . Well, japa . . . whether his father is doing japa nicely, that is also doubtful, what to speak of children. Japa , children cannot . . . that should not be taken very seriously. Whatever he can do, that's all right. We should enforce, we should . . . but not that if he does not immediately, he should be rejected. No. *You've often said the first*-class intelligent men are the brāhmaṇas , second-class intelligent men are the kṣatriyas . . . *So we have to train like that, guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ , not that everyone should be Sanskrit scholar. Why? It is not necessary. There are so many other things. *The inclination depends on guṇa*-karma . *Shobai korbe jomidari, ke korbe mubedari. Sab zamindar ho gaya to phir mubedari kaun karega. (If everyone becomes a landlord then who will become the servant.) Although by nature we should not enforce something. We should see for which work he is suitable, you should engage him. And we must have all departments of work—the weaving department, the plowing department, the cow*-keeping department, the Sanskrit department, the English department, the trading department. We should have all the departments. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Head, arms, belly and legs. Yes. Whichever suitable, that . . . one must be suitable for any of these. It is the guide's intelligence: for which purpose he is suitable, engage him, like that. That is required. Not that everyone has to become a big scholar in Sanskrit. That is not required. Let him come to gurukula , but if he is not suitable . . . gurukula , this . . . so far character is con . . . that is for everyone. Just like early rise in the morning, chanting, and going to the . . . what is the objection? Anyone can do it. That is practice. And for working, if he is not suitable for higher education, let him go to the farm, take care of the cows grow food, flowers, fruits, eat, and dance and chant. Chanting, dancing, everyone will take part. There is no doubt. How to mend him from lies? He speaks lies. Eh? How to mend him from lies? That is by your good association. What lies he tells, don't believe him at all. That's all. Take him that he speaks only lies. Then don't believe. Whatever he says, you force him to do. Take him that he speaks only lies. Why should you consult him? He's a liar. But see that he's working, that's all. Now we are getting so much land, we can develop. We can utilize everyone's service. That requires brain. Not that "He cannot do this, therefore reject him"—no, engage him in some other . . . One other point I want to make, and that is that until the construction is completed, I think we should wait . . . There is ample place now where can live. But I mean to bring more boys we should wait until the construction . . . Why? Let them come. It is already there. It is not that the guesthouse is all filled up. Let them come. As many as possible? Why not? Okay. *Let them come. And arrangement should be made when it is . . . if Vṛndāvana is too hot, at that time we can send them to Mahabaleshvara, or if we get that Madras place, that is very cooling, Nilgiri Hills. That will be good recreation for them. They should be kept quite comfortably and built up, their character, education. That is wanted. There is need of some good first*-class men, ideal men. The world is full of rogues and thieves and bad character. Ye jo Sarasvati vidyalaya, ye log kya kar rahe hai? (What are they doing, these Sarasvatī-vidyālaya people?) Shiksharthi nahi, vidyalaya khali padha hua hai Prabhupāda. (There are no teachers, the school is empty Prabhupāda.) To kyu hum log thoda le, hum log . . . (So why don't we acquire it, we can . . .) *Hume to aj . . . plan kye the . . . (indistinct) . . . panch che mahine ke liye le le. Char*-panch mahine ke liye bacche ate hai. (We had planned to acquire it for 5 to 6 months. Kids come here for 4 to 5 months.) *I just told you that building, that Śiśu*-vidyālaya, Sarasvatī *Śiśu*-vidyālaya, you saw it with Guṇārṇava? Yes. That's it. Prabhupāda asks about that. Oh. But they said no. Who said? Guṇārṇava went to see them, Mr . . . what's his name. You cannot send Guṇārṇava. He is not fit for this purpose. You should go yourself. Okay. *Kya wo padha hai, kya unka buddhi nahi. Hum log ko dede hum abhi Sarasvati vidyalaya bana de, ladki log ke liye. Sab lifeless hai. Kuch karega nahi aur kuch dusro ko karne ka sahaya nahi karega. Ab ye Dhanuka ka ye jo hai, kya kuch kaam nahi hota, padha hai. (What are they doing, don't they have any intelligence? Let them give it to us and make it into a real Sarasvatī*-vidyālaya, for the girls. They are all lifeless. They will neither do anything themselves nor help others to do something. This Dhanuka āśrama , what are they doing?) Sanskrit school hai, bacche padhte hai waha pe. Kal panchvi . . . (indistinct) . . . hui . . . (indistinct) . . . Dharma sangha, unka naam rakha hai Dharma sangha. (There is a Sanskrit school. Yesterday fifth grade . . . (indistinct) . . . they named it Dharma sangha .) Wo kya karte hai, baccho ke? (What do they do, those kids?) Bacche padhte hai sanskrit, bis marks ka exam dete hai . . . (Children study Sanskrit, write an exam of twenty marks . . .) Kitne bacche hai? (How many students are there?) Kafi hai. Pacchis tees ladke hai. (Quite a few. 25 to 30 boys are there.) Tab to thik hai. (Then it's okay.) Ha. Sanskrit padhate hai baccho ko. Unke kuch bacche Vaishnav bhi ho gaye hai, sadhu bhi ho gaye hai Vaishnav. (Yes. They teach Sanskrit to the kids. Some of them have become Vaiṣṇava saints.) Tab to thik hai. (Then it's okay.) (break) That's our report, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's our report. That's all right. Do that. Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- November 6, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper) *The present time, it is called Kali*-yuga. (aside) Take little prasādam . Kali-yuga means this age . . . Kali-yuga means the age of quarrel and disagreement. Age of . . .? *Quarrel and disagreement. Because there is no standard idea. So I'll disagree with you, you'll disagree with me, and on slight provocation there will be fight. This is age called Kali*-yuga. Do you see that nations will fight too? That there will be wars, things like that? Yes, so many difficulties. Even there is no war, the natural disturbance and foolish government will create such situation that people will become mad in hopelessness. Very dark. Very dark, yes. First thing, there will be no rainfall. Due to the sinful activities of the people, from nature the punishment will be there will be no rainfall. I have seen already in Europe. Everywhere there is scarcity of rainfall. And on account of scarcity of rainfall, food production will be reduced. They will try to eat meat, killing, and maintain themselves. But that is also not very prospective. How long you will . . .? The animals will also die. Then in Europe they are doing that, that on account of scarcity of rain there is no grass, so they are thinking, "These animals die for want of food. Let us eat them." This is their intelligence. Well, do you see that many people will die, because there's not . . . many people will die. Yes. If there is no rainfall, either animal or men, they will die for want of food. What do you think would be the remedy or solution to the problem? *Remedy is they should admit that there is God. But they do not admit, especially the so*-called scientist rascals and atheist philosophers, politicians. They do not accept the authority of God. They think they will be able to manage things in their own way. And they say clearly, "There is no God." But there is nature. You can say, "I don't care for the government," but the government force is there; police is there; military is there. Similarly, you may say: "Defy the control of government," but the agent of God is there, the material nature. That will punish you. There will be no rain, there will be no food production, and the rascal governments will take advantage of it, "food relief." They'll tax, as if by taxing they will be able to combat with nature. So three things we'll have to meet: no rain, no food, and government taxes. Then how people will remain in sane condition? They will become mad. But your teaching, doesn't it offer a way of meeting these problems? Yes. We are teaching people God consciousness. Then everything will be solved. You say that man does not understand nature. The scientist studies nature, but yet he doesn't really understand it. Why they do not understand it? Why don't you understand that there is control over us? Where is the difficulty? Foolishly we do not try to understand. Do you admit it, that above us there is control? Do you admit? Oh, yes. No, anyone. Some people do. Why others? That means they are foolish. Yes. Well, each person has his own thought. No, no, that means . . . he may be rascal, but it is a fact there is control over us. Just like if there is no rain, is it not control over you? Can you produce rain? I would say that there is a universal intelligence guiding everything. Yes, that means control. How can you deny the control over you? What do you understand is man's place in nature? Should he invent, let's say, electricity? Should he invent machines? Do you think these are good, or should he just leave those alone? Well, these are good or bad. Suppose if there was no this comfortable pad. That does not mean that I cannot sit. If there was no electricity, it does not mean we would have died. No. There was lamp. We were doing that. So we don't condemn electricity, but it does not mean because we have got electricity, we shall deny the authority of God. That is rascaldom. Yes. That is rascaldom. You might have improved from the oil lamp to electricity. That does not mean that you have the control over God. Yes, certainly not. So these foolish rascals, because they have improved little, they are denying, "Oh, now there is no need of God. That is opiate." What is that? Opiate? Opiate of the people. "They make the man foolish, God consciousness," and so on, so on. These scientists, they declare, "What is God? This is all superstition." But in the world there seem to be many different religions, many different faiths. Religion you may have. Religion means to try to understand God. Any religion—you take Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muhammadan religion—there is little attempt to understand God. So any religion which gives you knowledge of God and you understand what is relation with God, that is perfect religion. We have no quarrel. Do you think if all men . . . let's say, all the religions could try to come together . . . Religion means to understand God and to follow God's order. That is religion. Just like government and government law. So if the citizen understands what is the law of the government and abides by it, then he's a good citizen. Similarly, any person who understands God and abides by the order of God, then he is religious. Why do you stand? You may be Christian; *I may be Hindu, he may be Muhammadan. It doesn't matter. Everyone should understand God and the relationship with God and act accordingly. Then it is perfect religion. And if there is no conception of God, no carrying out order of the God, that is not religion. That is cheating. But generally they do not accept God—still, he is stamping himself that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian." He has no idea what is God, how to abide by His order, and they are fighting that "I am Christian and you are Hindu. Therefore we must fight." This is going on. Nobody understands what is God. Pseudo*-religion. Practically there is no religion. If there is no government—you make your law, I make my law—then how there will be peace? That is the position. They do not understand what is God, and "I am Christian" or "Hindu" or "Muhammadan, now let us fight." That's all. Do you think that there is a special way that Hinduism looks upon man's place in the universe? "The Hindu religion" is a vague term. It's a what? *It is a vague term. It is not clear. It is not clear. Real term is, it is called Vedic principle. Vedic principle. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: Vedic knowledge means to understand God. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam ( BG 15.15). So anyone who tries to understand God, he is in the Vedic line. Veda means knowledge, so as you get the stock of knowledge, that is called Vedas . But as soon as we say Vedas , they think it is Hindu. Mathematics is a science. So any scientific man will accept mathematics. Where is the question of Hindu mathematics? Gold is gold. If it is in the hand of Hindu, it is Hindu gold? Hindu, Muslim gold? Gold is gold. But when we give the Vedic knowledge, they think it is Hindu idea. Are you saying that this knowledge has appeared in many forms? Eh? Does it appear also in, let's say, Christianity, in Muslim, Muhammadanism? No, no, I say that every religion, there is an attempt to understand God. Why do they not understand God, what is God? Then everything will be solved. But they are decrying, "There is no God. God is dead," and "There is no need of God, now we have got science." In every step they are trying to kill God. That's all. That's true of certain people, but there are also many . . . Majority, they do not understand what is God. There are many sincere seekers, I think, in Christians and Muslims. At least I have met. Yes. That must be. There must be some sincere men. That can be admitted. But still the sincere man also does not understand clearly what is the meaning of God. "I believe in God." "I believe in God," they say. Just like in America they say: "We trust in God." But what is God, he does not know. So what is the meaning of this, "I trust in God"? That is a phobia. It probably means many things. If I say: "What do you mean by God?" they cannot give any clear definition. And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, "Here is God. Take Him." But they have no knowledge. They will say, "They are presenting some Hindu god," and then they do not accept Him. What do you understand by that word "God"? God means supreme controller. Super . . .? Controller. The master of the universe. That's it. Well is that . . . do you think that this concept is, let's say, the special insight of the Vedic? No, no. You, as a philosopher, you can understand that there is supreme controller. Can you deny it? I would . . . only with great difficulty, I think, it seems to me. Yes, it is . . . you cannot deny it. But they foolishly deny it. Therefore they are rascals. So how you can convince the rascals the right way? If you give me a dozen of dogs, can I convince him that what is God? Hardly. They have no capacity to understand. But they have no capacity. The modern civilization, we are creating dogs and hogs, so how they will understand God? Do you think there will always be a few who understand? Certainly. Unless one . . . but if there is a class of men, ideal, who understands God, then people will follow. We require one moon; *then the darkness will be dissipated. But if in the millions of stars, what is the use? So they are creating millions of rascals, not one sane man, the modern civilization, the so*-called philosophers, so-called scientists. Don't mind. This is the fact. Do you basically reject the modern civilization? No, no. I say they are being foolishly trained. I see. The whole education system is bad. Can you see no hope that there will be change? There is hope. There is cent percent hope, provided you accept the right way. But would you say the right way would have to be, let's say, to be a follower of Kṛṣṇa? "God" means Kṛṣṇa. What about . . .? As I understand, in the *Gītā* . . . *God . . . Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. So God must be all-attractive, full controller. Our definition of God is, All wealth, all power, all intelligence, all beauty, all renunciation. In this way. These are new books in French, Kṛṣṇa book and Upadeśāmṛta . This devotee has just brought them from Bhagavān dāsa. Oh. Thank you. When you have come? Two days ago. Oh. (to Professor) You know French language? Yes. Yes, I saw a copy earlier today at the . . . the man who did the translation, I forget his name. From Chicago, I think. He worked on the translation. It's very beautiful. Oh, you have seen it. Yes. I forget his name. It's very nice. Very beautiful. This is French book, Kṛṣṇa . Umāpati. Yes, Umāpati. Yes. Oh, Umāpati. He is here. Yes, I met him this afternoon. (break) . . . give the idea of God. To try to teach, try to help people understand. And now in India another danger is that so many rascals, they are declaring, "I am God." And this India, people have become so fallen down, they accept all these rascals as God. Do you think the same problem is here in India as in other countries? No, in your country there is no God. That is another problem. (laughter) There is no God. And here rascals are God. I see. The problem remains the same. You say frankly, "There is no God," but these rascals say: "There is God, but here is my God." And he says, "No, here is my God." No one knows the real God. (laughs) No one knows the real God. How does one distinguish between what is a false God . . . This is the formula. Just like aiśvaryasya . Now, you have got some money, but you cannot say that, "I have got all the money of the world." That you cannot say. You may possess some states, but you cannot say that "I am the owner of all the states." So God is the proprietor. You have got your country. Which country you belong to? United States. United States. So you have got certain area. But when you go to the seaside, then who is the proprietor of the sea? As philosopher, will you not think it? There is no proprietor, strictly speaking. Why no proprietor? A small tank if you dig, you immediately claim, "This is my tank," and such a big ocean, and there is no proprietor? As philosopher, how you can think like that? Well, I think of what is the basis of property, property is just a convention . . . (break) Suppose I go in a park. There is nice tank, reservoir of water, well decorated. And if I think, "There is no proprietor," is it not my foolishness? There must be one proprietor, but I do not know him. That is real sense. Similarly, everything has got proprietor. Why the sea and the land, the so many other things, why there is no proprietor? This is foolishness. I don't understand how this relates to distinguishing who are the true teachers . . . No, that I have already explained. Everyone is foolish now. You cannot distinguish who is thief and who is not thief. Thakbaj se gaon ojo. (The village is full of cheaters.) If you study everyone, you will find everyone is rascal at the present moment. But surely there are some who are sincere. Some must be there. There is no doubt about it. But they are so in minority, who will hear about them? "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." The whole world is rascal. If somebody is intelligent, who cares for him? Just like people laugh at me that I am talking of God. I am not only talking; I am writing so many books. My only endeavor is to understand God, that's all. There is no sectarian. And I am selling my books all over the world. So not that everyone is foolish. They're trying to understand my presentation, big, big scholars, big, big philosophers. Yes. Oh yes, we have many of them in our library. Yes. So there is knowledge. If people kindly take it, everything will be solved. But they have stubbornly denied, "No God." And I am stubbornly fighting, "Yes, there is God." That is the . . . now the whole America is combining to fight against me, opposition that, "This man is brainwashing, controlling the mind, and our children are kidnapped." They are bringing these charges against us. Just like you have come. Have I kidnapped you? Oh, no. (laughs) But these rascals say that I have kidnapped their children. But judgment has been taken. *There must be judgment, but people have become so rascal. So I am trying to convince, although single*-handed that, "There is God," and they are bringing opposition. That is the real philosophy. That is not only Indian philosophy; this is universal philosophy. Yes. God is for everyone. God, the almighty powerful. God is not Hindu God, Muslim God, Christian. God is God. Now when I say: "Here is God. His name is Kṛṣṇa. His father's name is Nanda Mahārāja," now they will laugh. Do you think if a person is to be a real believer in God he has to also worship Kṛṣṇa or speak of Him? *No, God means Kṛṣṇa. He has to understand it. Therefore so many books. God has many names, millions, of which Kṛṣṇa name is the most important. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. Then you have to understand the science of God. How Kṛṣṇa is God, that you have to understand. But for that reason we are publishing so many books. We have already published eighty-four books, simply in English language. And they are being translated in German, French, Portuguese, then Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Hindi, Bengali, like that. It's a very great effort. Yes. And we are getting response. Our books are selling like hotcakes. (laughter) Yes. This is about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, the person. : Kṛṣṇa, the person. His book. His book. Here it is written. : Yes, the Supreme Personality. "*Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*." It is written there? Yes, I saw it. "Supreme Personality of Godhead." Yes. *This is a book of Kṛṣṇa. "The complete resume of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ." Tenth Canto. : The person does not want to solve the questions. They want only to get riches. They want to get rich like . . . (indistinct) No, they don't want simple things. And what is the use of becoming rich man? It is all fruitless. Rich man you can become, but for how long you shall be rich? The nature is so cruel; *at any moment he'll take away everything. Then what is the use of becoming? No, you become rich man. There is no . . . but you should know that "Although I am rich, powerful, everything can be taken by nature at any moment." Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). That is statement of God, that "Any moment . . . you try to become rich, powerful, and president and minister, that's all right, but any moment, I can take everything from you." So who will protect himself? They have no brain that, "Whatever I have created, it can be taken at any moment." So what is that confidence? They have no inquiry even. That this is a fact. Either you become Napoleon, Hitler or Gandhi or this or that, any moment everything will be taken away, "Get out." Not only that, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), you have to accept another body. And that is no guarantee what body you are going to get, because it is fully under the control of nature. They therefore don't believe in transmigration of the soul. And that is very great botheration. They try to evade. But Kṛṣṇa says, God says: "You cannot evade. It is nature's law." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Within your body the soul is there. On account of presence of the soul—you were a child, now you are a grown young man—the body has changed. You were a boy, now you are young man. So on account of presence of the soul, the body is changing. So when this body will be finished, the soul will exist. Therefore, naturally you have to conclude there will be another body. Is it possible to escape the conditions of being in the body? Yes, that is possible. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And that is the real problem. As soon as you get a body, you are in trouble. What is the purpose of there being a body? Being in body means . . . what is the purpose of being in the jail? Is there any purpose? Certainly for some punishment. Yes. So because we are punished, therefore we are getting this body. Why does man . . . why does the soul come into the body in the first place? Punishment. But he must have done something . . . You want to enjoy. Can you understand this? Everyone is trying to enjoy. So enjoy independently means that you don't care for . . . that is the fact. They don't care for God. So because they don't care for God, therefore they are punished, "You take care of your body." And as soon as you care for God, then there is no material body. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti . So God, therefore, teaches us how to get out of this body. That's the whole idea of mokṣa ? Hmm? Mokṣa ? *Yes, that is. Mokṣa means to stay in your original body. And bondage means we want different types of enjoyment, so God gives us the facility: "All right. Enjoy." If I do not make any discrimination of food . . . as human being, we must have discrimination. But if you don't discriminate, then you get the body of a pig. You can eat even stool. If you want to eat meat unrestricted, you become a tiger. Nature will give you facility. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara . And there are 8,400,000's of bodies. So according to your desire, you'll get a body. God will give you. Is that what is meant when a man thinks when he dies, at the moment of his death . . . Yes. He goes there. Are there many places, let's say, beyond the physical? So many places. Don't you see, night? *No, I mean beyond this physical, three*-dimensional universe. *Oh, yes. This is only one*-fourth part manifestation of God's property. The three-fourth part is the spiritual world. Are there different regions for these higher worlds? *Beyond this universe. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). Find. He'll find out. Every information is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . *In the Bhagavad*-gītā . Mmm. That is the beginning of God consciousness. Naśyatsu na vinaśyati . When everything in this material will be annihilated, that will exist. There is another world. Read it. "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." Purport? Purport: "Kṛṣṇa's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahmā. Kṛṣṇa's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter." There are two natures. One is material nature; *one is spiritual nature. The material nature—earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego—and beyond that, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām . This is inferior nature. Beyond this, there is a superior nature. And that superior, jīva*-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). That is the living entity. This big universe, this is material. But the living entities, because they are using this material for their so-called advancement, comforts . . . and because they have the power to utilize these material matters for their own purpose, they are superior. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā . And because this nature is being utilized, one is being utilized and one is utilizer. The utilizer is the superior, and the things utilized, they are inferior, but both of them are nature, God's nature. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā . Is there time in the higher nature? Hmm? Is there time? No. Higher nature means eternal. There are no changes in the higher nature? Changes when he gets into this material, inferior nature. He has to change the body, one circumstance to another, another, another, according to his desire. Just like you get a lump of dirt. You can mold it. You can make a pot. You can make a doll. So we are doing that. Child . . . the father has given birth to the child, and father has given the child a lump of earth, and he's playing. That's all. For both of them, the father is the proprietor. If the child wants to play, father says: "All right, play." So he's sometimes breaking, sometimes crying, sometimes laughing. This is going on. Then he goes back. Yes, if he gets sense. Therefore the father comes, that "You give up all this nonsense. Come home." So if you surrender to God, if you have grown up from the childish nature to the real human nature, then surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God. Then our life is perfect. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). (aside) Find out this verse. "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." *That's it. So everyone can become a great soul if he accepts the proposal of God. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śara . . . (BG 18.66). Everything is solved. But that he'll not do. Just like your first question was the "How to solve these problems?" The problems will be solved as soon as he surrenders to God. But that he'll not do. He is bigger than God. He will make solution by his own plan. This is the difficulty. Is that because of the age? *No, this is the . . . just like anyone is in the prison house, they are all criminals. But some of them are first*-class prisoners, some of them second-class, some of them third-class. But they are prisoner. Similarly, according to different time, people are more or less god . . . godless. So this time is more godless. The prison house is filled up with more third-class prisoners. How long does that period last? Well, now this age will . . . the duration of this age is calculated 4,3200 . . . 432 hundred thousands of years. Out of that we have passed only 500,000 . . . no, five thousand years. A long time to go. Yes. But why should you wait for the long time? You can go back to home, back to . . . immediately. That is our proposal, that "Why should you wait?" This may be long time. But we . . . you give up the connection with the material world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then after giving up this body you go back to home, back to Godhead. Then you have no connection, this. But we are make planning here, "We shall be comfortable." This is rascaldom. We indulge our time . . . *We should stop all rascal plan and should take the plan given by God. Then it will be . . . everything will be all right. Simple solution. The God's plan is there in this book. Let us take it. Then everything is solved. But "No, we are scientist. We are philosopher. We are big man, politician. We shall make our own." Do, and suffer. God has given freedom: "All right." Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Kṛṣṇa is saying in the Bhagavad*-gītā after explaining Arjuna everything, then He asked, "What you have decided? Your plan or My plan?" So Kṛṣṇa said, "I am giving you freedom. Whatever you like, you can do." The plan is there. Now it is up to us to accept it or reject it. If you reject, you suffer. If you accept, you become happy. So we are requesting people, "Accept it." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Then you'll be happy." But who cares for us? He is making his own plan. Therefore he must suffer. Nature's law he cannot avoid. That's not possible. Nature's law, there is drought. And if God likes, immediately there will be rain. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ . That is also stated. (aside) So read that. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, annād . *The formula is there. (devotees looking for verse) Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ , yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ . Annāt , a-n-n-a-t . Get this light there on. This one? Yes, the outside. So all philosophers, all scientists, all politicians, let us combine together. The formula is there. (aside) Read it. "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of yajña , sacrifice, and yajña is born of prescribed duties." *That's it. There is no prescribed duties. Everyone is a butcher. Formerly there was distinction: "Here is a butcher," "Here is a religious man." At the present moment everyone is a butcher. Who is religious man? There was division, at least one class, first*-class man, second-class man, third-class man. Then, if there is ideal first-class man, even the fourth class, third class, he'll take the idea, "Oh, here is first class." But there is no first-class man. All fourth-class men. So who will give idea? And they want to remain fourth class. If you say that "You become first class," they will laugh: "What is the use of becoming first class?" First class means, find out, śamo damas titikṣā, then, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam . Śrīla Prabhupāda, what did you want? You asked me to do something . . . I want the light on the veranda. It's on. That's all right. *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." *And if I teach that "I'll teach you how to become truthful," they will laugh. People will say: "Can anyone exist nowadays, simply becoming truthful?" Then damaḥ , self*-controlled. If I say: "Come here. I shall teach you how to control your senses," he will laugh that, "What is this nonsense? We shall enjoy life, and shall control senses?" This is the description of the first-class man, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava , saralatā , simplicity. No one is prepared to become first-class man. They will laugh. These are all primitive ideas. You think there is nobody like that? *Not nobody, there are. But people generally will not like that, "These are primitive ideas, to become truthful, simple and controlling the mind, controlling . . . these are all imaginary things. How one can live in the struggle for existence by becoming truthful?" They will say like that. Therefore everyone is fourth class. And the second*-class man, kṣatriya? "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas ." *This is kṣatriya . Now, who is kṣatriya ? A fourth*-class man, he never seen battlefield, and by vote he becomes president. And here kṣatriya means yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam . If there is fight he must come forward first of all. He is in his palace, and he's engaging common men, "Go and fight." When there was Battle of Kurukṣetra, Arjuna and Duryodhana, they came first. Because the battle was decided as soon as the leader is dead. No more fight. So they used to come first. This is kṣatriya . Where is that kṣatriya ? And they are becoming politicians simply by votes, all third-class, fourth-class men. What he'll do? Everyone is trying to keep his position by hook and crook. How he'll think of the people? How they will be happy? He is thinking of his own happiness. And these are politicians. There is no kṣatriya . There is no Brahmin. And there is no vaiśya . What is the vaiśya ? *Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). *Hmm. A vaiśya means he should provide food. So food means agriculture and giving protection to the cows. If you have got sufficient food grains and milk, the whole food question is solved. And these rascals, they are not giving protection to the cows, but they are killing cows. So there is no third*-class men even. All fourth-class. So how you can be happy under the control of fourth-class men? There is no first-class men, no second-class men, even no third class. That means all fourth class, fifth class. That's all. This is the human society, combination of fourth-, fifth-, tenth-class men. Tenth-class. The fourth-class . . . there are fourth-class men and more than that, fifth-class men, uncivilized. Aborigines, they are fifth class. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). There are so many. In the human civilized . . . civilization means there must be first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Then rest all fifth class, up to tenth class. But at the present moment there is some fourth-class men and all fifth class, sixth class, up to tenth class. So how we can be happy? There is no first-class men, there is no second-class men, not even third-class men. Who is caring for agriculture? They are preparing Goodyear Tire. Now eat tires. You rascal, eat tires. How long you'll eat tires? If there is no customer for tire, they're finished. *So that is coming. I went to Detroit about six months ago. There're factories. They have manufactured the wheels, huge stock. That means they are not selling. And the Goodyear Tire, they advertising, "So many millions tires we are manufacturing." You have been in Detroit? Yes. They're proud that "We have manufactured so many tires, so many wheels." The time will come when there will be no purchaser for tires and wheels, and they'll starve. That is coming. What they will do? If they become hungry there is no food grain. For some time they will eat, killing the cows, and then there will be no food, and what these tire and wheels will do? But there is no first*-class brain, that "We are wasting time by manufacturing tires and wheels. Without wheels we could live, but how we shall live without food grain?" There is no brain, no first-class men, no second-class men, no third-class men. There are farmers who produce . . . Well, in your country there is some adjustment because it is very big country, and you are all intelligent people. In other countries they are . . . but even though you have got resources, if you not properly utilize it, then the bad time is coming. You should expect. If your energy is all engaged in manufacturing tires and wheels, then who will go to the . . . actually I have seen in your country. Now the farmers' son, they do not like to remain in the farm. They go in the city. I have seen it. The farmers' sons, they do not like to take up the profession of his father. So gradually farming will be reduced, and the city residents, they are satisfied if they can eat meat. And the farmer means keeping the . . . raising the cattle and killing them, send to the city, and they will think that, "We are eating. What is the use of going to . . ." But these rascals have no brain that, "If there is no food grain or grass, how these cattle will be . . .?" Actually it is happening. They are eating swiftly. "The cattle will die. Before they die, let us kill and eat." Actually it is happening. In Italy they killed because the problem is twenty thousand cows. This is going on. They do not care that killing is sinful, because they don't care for God. This is going on. And sinful, sinful, sinful, everyone will be punished. The nature's law will act. Thakbaj se gaon ojo. (The village is full of cheaters.) There is a Bengali proverb, thakbaj se gaon ojo, (the village is full of cheaters,) that "One man wanted to take statistics, 'How many thieves are there in this village?' So when he began to take statistics, he saw everyone is thief. Then he said that 'What is the use of making statistics? This is village of thieves, that's all.' " So it is . . . at the present moment this is the position. If you make a statistics who is sinful and who is not sinful, you will find all sinful. And because they are sinful, they decry the existence of God. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante . . . (aside) Find out this, Seventh . . . because they are all sinful, they deny the existence of God. This is the position. Read it. "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest amongst mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me." *That's it. So you'll find everyone of this description, either sinful or lowest of the mankind or rascal or puffed*-up with false knowledge. But basic principle is: no God. So the only solution is let them first of all become God conscious. Then all solution. Otherwise there is no hope. The problem is very complex . . . Yes, it must be complex. They will create complexity. And the solution is very simple. Solution. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām . . . and that we are preaching, that "You become God conscious. Everything will be solved." And who is caring for us? Rather, they are giving opposition that, "These rascals are kidnapping our sons, brainwashing, controlling the mind," creating courts case. Just see. This is going on. Do you see as a . . . when you're describing that if the world were going to be God conscious, it would . . . Everything will be solved. But you were describing the caste system or the . . . This is not caste system. It is natural. There is always an intelligent class of men in the society. So they should be, what is called, listed. They should be trained up properly. How do you envision . . .? Would you envision . . .? *Just like you are a philosopher. So you should not make only theories, "perhaps." But actually, by your philosophy, you establish the existence of God. Then you are philosopher. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya . . . (SB 1.5.22). Find out this verse in the Bhāgavata . Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka . If by your philosophical knowledge you prove, "Yes, there is God," then your philosophy study is perfect. And if you philosophize, "There is no God," that is useless waste of time. To gain popularity, if you make philosophy like . . . in your country there are so many rascal philosophers—Darwin, Freud. They are all rascals. They are predominant. I think there is some misunderstanding that many Americans may have about teaching that you have. Maybe you can clarify it. No you clarify it. It is your duty. You are philosopher. Well, that's why I am trying to understand it. Yes. I think it's something like this, that . . . I've learned it from other of your devotees, or devotees of Kṛṣṇa. No, we have got our books. You are philosopher. You can read. You can understand the whole thing. There is no question of "This devotee, that devotee." We are giving in writing. So we cannot deny that. The question, though, is that there seems to be an advo . . . you advocate that there be a kind of Vedic society, that you are . . . *No, Vedic means knowledge, intelligent society. Why do you understand Vedic? Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda*-vido jñānena . This Veda word coming from knowledge. When I say that, "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Is there any objection? If I say that "Here is Mr. Such-and-such, a man of knowledge," so is there any objection? Is there a what? Is there any objection? Is there any objection. Will anybody object? It depends on whether the man shows himself to be a man of knowledge. No, no. If I present you that, "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Everyone welcomes knowledge. Yes, but one has to also show that he has knowledge. Yes. That is next. First of all, if I say that "Here is a man of knowledge," where is the objection? Now, whether you are man of knowledge, that will be tested next. But if I introduce you that, "Here is a man of knowledge . . ." Similarly if I say: "Here is man who knows *Vedas* ," so why the objection? Knowledge is for everyone. Why do they take, "Oh, *Vedas* , oh, it is Hindu"? Immediately you reject. I don't think it's so much question of rejecting the *Vedas* . . . *No, Vedas , they do not know what is Vedas . They think it is Hindu. This is the difficulty. As soon as say " Bhagavad*-gītā ," "Oh, it is Hindu idea." Well, many, many people do . . . *But that means they do not know what is the meaning of Bhagavad*-gītā , what is the meaning of Vedas . Unnecessarily they put some outside . . . just like they are doing now. They do not know what is knowledge, and they are accusing us that we are brainwashing. We are forbidding our devotees, "Don't eat meat." Oh, they are taking it: "It is revolutionary. Eh? How these men, they are stopping?" (someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Apni bhalo achen? Ami Bholanath. Ami Benaras e thaki, ami ajke . . . (How are you? I am Bholanath. I am from Benaras, today . . .) (break) *So this is difficulty. If I say, "Here is a person who knows mathematics," why there should be . . . any person who is interested in mathematics will welcome him. So similarly, here is Vedic knowledge. Vedic knowledge means real knowledge. Here is Bhagavad*-gītā , the knowledge of God, but they misunderstand it. They think, "Oh, we have got another God." How God can be another? So people should be sober, that we are giving books. They should understand. And it is accepted by the educated class, big, big professors, big, big philosophers. It is not blind faith. Just like this version of Bhagavad-gītā , tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "As we are changing body even in this duration of life, similarly, when this body is finished, then another body." So where is the difficulty to understand? But they will say, "It is Hindu idea." Fact we are presenting that, "You are changing your body. When you came out of the womb of your mother, the body was so small. And then little bigger body, little bigger body, little bigger body. Now you are full-grown young man." So the body is changing, everyone can understand. But I can understand also that, "I had so big . . . small body and this body. Then body is changing; I am existing." Then where is the difficulty of the transmigration of the soul? Many people do accept it. But as soon as we say . . . "Oh, this is Hindu idea"; reject immediately. This is science, and they are taking "Hindu idea." The problem is that identification only Indian philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise it is universal philosophy. It is universal, but they are taking it as Indian. In order to identify that, Vedic, let's say Indian, actually that is not Indian. *No, whatever it may be, knowledge is knowledge. It may be Indian or American, it doesn't matter. Just like university. Some student from India go to university in America to study higher knowledge. So that means that because he has gone to America, that is American knowledge? Knowledge is knowledge. So they should take on this background. But they are thinking that we are spoiling their children, brainwashing, controlling the mind, because against their principle, against their uncivilized way of life: meat*-eating, illicit sex, intoxication. This is uncivilized life. Why a man, civilized man, shall eat meat? He can prepare so many nice things. He has learned how to produce food, food grain. When they are uncivilized—there is no food; they do not know how to grow food—they can eat animal in the jungle. But if after becoming civilized, if you are eating the same thing, then what is the difference between civilization and not civilization? You have learned. And especially in your America you can get all nice foodstuff. You have got sufficient grains, sufficient fruits, sufficient vegetables, sufficient . . . everything sufficient. Why you should eat meat? This is uncivilized life. They could not give up the uncivilized way of life. And when you teach that "You become civilized. Give up this all nonsense. Don't eat." "Oh, it is brainwashing." You see? We are teaching them to become civilized, and they are taking it brainwashing. *Is that a teaching of the Bhagavad*-gītā , that one should not eat meat? *Yes. Not . . . meat*-eating is third-class man's eating. It is not denied. Amedhya . But to give us our life, don't kill cows, because it gives you milk, very substantial food. If you want to eat meat, you can eat the hogs and dogs. But don't kill the cows. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). This is special. It is not forbidding meat-eating, but don't eat cows' flesh. That is loss. It is a great loss to the human society. If they do not have sufficient milk production, then their brain will be dull. They will not be able to understand subtle things. Therefore it is better to avoid it. But if you cannot avoid, you can eat some inferior, useless animals. But don't touch the cows. This is Bhagavad-gītā . Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . He never says pig- rakṣya . You can eat pig. You can eat the goats, the lambs. There are so many small useless animals. They are eating dogs also. The Chinese people, they eat dogs. *So you can eat dogs, hogs, so many other animals. But don't touch the cows. This is God's instruction. And they are advertising that, "The Hindus, they are so fool, they are worshiping an animal, a cow." They do not know what is the economic value of this cow. In the beginning of your life you want milk immediately in the morning. And you are killing the mother. You are civilized? Do you think? You take milk up to the point of death. In South Africa, before killing the cows, they drag out milk and then send it. Milk is important, but because they are uncivilized, they do this. You take milk. Instead of killing, you prepare so many nice things from milk which is good for brain, good for intelligence. But they do not know because uncivilized. Foolish fourth*-class men. So we are trying to bring them to become first-class men, and they are accusing of brainwash. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." We are teaching that "These boys, they are becoming first class." Anyone will worship them. How nice they look, how behavior, how their character. We are creating this, and they are accusing, "Oh, they are kidnapping our children." (aside to guest) Why you are going? Eh? Why you are going? . . . ap baat kijiye. (. . . please continue.) *Ācchā . So this is our position. Now you are philosophers. You try to understand the whole philosophy and combine together. People have become all fourth*-class, tenth-class, uncivilized men. They should be given the idea of God consciousness. I don't say only in the Western country. Everywhere this is the problem, all fourth-class men. So there is possibility to bring the fourth-class men to the first class. That is educational. It can be done. There is no difficulty. So this is the education, how to make fourth-class men or fifth-class men to come to the first-class standard. (aside) What is that? Which verse I wanted? Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the *Vedas* , sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry." *Yes. Now, suppose you are a well*-known philosopher. If you say: "There is God," so many people will hear, "Oh, here is a big philosopher." Therefore your studies of philosophy will be perfect when you establish, "Yes, there is God." Otherwise it is useless, because you will waste your time and you'll waste . . . already they are godless. How does one establish clearly? *That requires thinking. That requires knowledge. Therefore we are giving so many books. You can study. You can present the case nicely with argument, philosophy. That is your duty. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānu . . . when you are able to describe God very philosophically, scientifically, mathematically, then your education is perfect. Are there any books particularly that focus on all this? *Every . . . there are so many books. There are so many books. The primary book is the Bhagavad*-gītā , yes, as it is, if you take it as it is. If you amend it to your whimsical way, then it is gone. Therefore we are presenting. This word we have added, Bhagavad-gītā "As It Is." Don't try to amend it. Then it will be foolishness. *If I wanted to know Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, you'd have to read Sanskrit, wouldn't you? No, we have this English translation. This is in French translation, in German translation. How does one decide . . . there are so many translations. How does one decide . . . *That depends on your philosophy. You are reading so many books. How do you select, "This is nice"? That depends on your philosophy. But if you accept it that it is spoken by God, then there is no argument. But why should you accept it, spoken by God? You read it, whether how much logical, how much full of knowledge. Then you can say. The same thing—just like Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "Within this body there is the soul, and because the soul is there, therefore body is changing." So anyone can . . . any layman can understand. Things are there like that. So there is no difficulty. If we take, "Oh, this description, the transmigration of the soul—Hindu idea." Why Hindu idea? It is science. One usually thinks of it as Hindu because . . . As soon as we consider it "Hindu," then it becomes sectarian. Then you will say: "I have got my Christian idea. Why shall I take your Hindu idea?" What is your view towards Christianity? Christianity is to some extent, but you have got different edition of Christianity. So far I know, as soon as they say: "Christian," immediately the question, "To which Christian party you belong?" What is that? Christians, yeah. Protestants, Methodists, Catholics . . . *So which is correct Christianity we do not know. But we have no such thing. There is no party. Bhagavad*-gītā , there cannot be any party. If anyone makes any party, he is immediately cancelled. But at least we believe in the Ten Commandments. Now, Lord Jesus Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." But why all the Christians are simply busy in killing? That is my first question. Not all of them believe in . . . *Ninety*-nine percent, they are maintaining all big, big slaughterhouse, all Christians. And Lord Jesus Christ ordered, "Thou shall not kill," but they are killing. What kind of Christian he is? Disobedience to the order of Christ, and still he is Christian? These things are going on. Then again party, this "ism," that "ism," that "ism." First of all, all of them are disobeying the Ten Commandments, and then there are parties. So which one you'll accept? *There's no such diversity of interpretation of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? *No, no, apart from Bhagavad*-gītā , I am talking of Christianity. How you can disobey the orders of Christ and you become Christian at the same time? There's always people falling short of what their . . . That's it. That means they are all useless. If you are Christian, how you can defy the order of Christ? You will disobey the orders of Christ; *still you are Christian? Just like in India they are all denying the Vedic culture, and still they are Hindu? All these rascals. So therefore I say whole world is full of rascals. If the Christians accept this word, that Lord says: "Thou shall not kill," why shall we kill? Welcome. Never mind whether Christian or Hindu. Welcome. Similarly, in India, if they accept Bhagavad*-gītā , welcome. But everyone is rascal, mūḍha . Nobody cares for God, nobody cares for God's messenger. All rascals. This is the position. They are creating God. They are creating religion. They are creating sect. This is going on. (indistinct) . . . even though they are sincere . . . *That should be educated from the very beginning. Therefore we are opening gurukulas, sane brain. Otherwise their brain is spoiled by so*-called bad education. I inquired from your State Secretary that, "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so why not spread this God consciousness, 'What is God?' You blindly say, 'God in Trust,' but what is God? Do you know? So why not spread this science?" I received no reply up to date. They might have said: "Here is a crazy fellow. Nobody has inquired like this." That's all. They do not like to enter into the controversy. Actually they do not believe in God, but write, "In God We Trust," is it not? That's what they write. Yes, but they don't believe in God. Hypocrisy. Because if they trust in God, then they could not cheat that, "I am paying you one thousand dollars by some papers." This is cheating. And promise, "In God I Trust." Is that money? So this cheating is begun from the government. Now how the people will be honest? Everywhere, in all government, they are giving you some papers and you accept it as money. This is not brainwash. Just see. They are educating people that, "I promise to pay. This is money," but actually he's receiving some papers. This is not brainwash. And we are talking of God, that is brainwash. Perhaps when people . . . No, no, this is the present situation. When people will be honest, that is future. But I mean now, when they make these confrontations and give you these difficulties, perhaps it will give your people a chance to teach them and clarify . . . Well, that we are doing, but this is the opposition. That our boys are trained up. They are trying to meet the opposition. But my point is that such a nice thing we are giving. Why they should oppose? That means uncivilized. Why good thing should be opposed? They say: "In God We Trust," and we are speaking of God only. We have no other business, and they are opposing. And they write, "In God We Trust." Hypocrisy. "If we believe in God, we trust in God, all right, they are talking of God. Let us hear." That is sense. That Patrick? Patrick? He kidnaps our devotees. Ted Patrick. Yes. And by force trying to give him meat but now, if educated men of your country, they come forward, understand this philosophy, then combined effort . . . my philosophy is that American and Indian: American money and Indian culture, combine together; *the whole world will be changed. That is my philosophy. It is coming to some extent. These American boys, they help me. (aside) What is that newspaper cutting? Appeared in Bombay? Bring it. They have published this philosophy, my philosophy. Actually, if I not have gone to America, at least I could not publish . . . (indistinct) . . . when I was in India, with great difficulty I published three books only. And because I went to America, I was able to publish eighty*-four books. And it is going on still. These boys help me. Just like they are publishing now, still. Hmm. Read it. "The West is like a blind man, and the East is like a cripple . . ." No, read the heading and everything. (indistinct) . . . "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma, written by the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . the West is like a blind man, and the East is like a cripple, says A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder-ācārya of the International Society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The two should cooperate. The blind man should carry his lame companion, and the lame man should give guidance to his blind friend. In this way both will benefit. Similarly, the wealthier Western countries should assist the materially exploited East, and the East, particularly India, should help the spiritually blind West to understand scientifically the actual higher purpose of human life. To offer India's transcendental science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the West, Prabhupāda sailed from Bombay to New York City in 1965. After a year of great personal struggle, he established the first center of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In the next few years he attracted hundreds of sincere disciples and opened centers in dozens of American and European cities. He also established gurukula schools and farming communities based on the ancient Indian pattern. "In 1970 Prabhupāda returned to India and with the assistance of many Indian gentlemen and some of his disciples, he established ISKCON centers in Bombay, Delhi, Calcutta, Madras and the rural holy spots of Vṛndāvana, Lord Kṛṣṇa's place, and Māyāpur, West Bengal, the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Soon he attracted many Indian disciples as well, who opened centers in Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Chandigarh and in several rural areas. Today ISKCON has about one hundred āśramas , gurukula schools, temples and farming communities around the world. But according to Prabhupāda, his books are his most important contribution. In the last ten years he has published over eighty volumes in sixteen languages. Scholars in India and abroad have praised Prabhupāda's books as classics, scholarly and authoritative. Literally crores of his literatures are sold annually, and this figure is almost doubling every year. "How is it possible to sell so many books about Kṛṣṇa? Girirāja, president of the ISKCON center in Bombay, answers, 'People all over the world are looking to India for transcendental knowledge. They know that India's ancient Sanskrit literature speaks of lasting happiness beyond the frustration of material life. They are eager to buy our books because they know that we are presenting the genuine Vedic culture. In fact, many Westerners come here to discover the real India for themselves . . . (indistinct) . . . life experience. For this reason we are building a model Vedic community at our Juhu center in Bombay, providing all the modern amenities for scholars, students and sophisticated inquirers from abroad as well as from India who can study the original Indian culture and practice. The center will include a Vedic library, theater, prasādam restaurant, gurukula school, an international guesthouse, as well as a temple and āśrama .' *"ISKCON is also building a model Vedic community in Māyāpur near Calcutta based on cottage industry and agriculture. The important principle is that everyone must be gainfully employed. In ISKCON's Māyāpur project hundreds of persons operate spinning wheels and more than a dozen handlooms, dye the cloth, and . . . (indistinct) . . . printed in popular design, process rice and dāl by hand, crush sugarcane for sugar products, and manufacture by hand wooden shoes and other items of daily use. On twenty*-five acres of agricultural land in Māyāpur, ISKCON is developing and demonstrating scientific farming procedures such as crop rotation, organic fertilization, and using improved strains. ISKCON is also cross-breeding cattle from Canada and Australia with Indian cows to increase milk production. Thus the community provides its own cloth, food, and other daily needs, acts as an agricultural development and demonstration center, and additionally feeds thousands of people twice every week. Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON plans, the Māyāpur project will extend into a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand . . ." We have applied for 350 acres of land from the government. The process is going on. If we get, then we shall spend crores of rupees for . . . the description is . . . "Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON plans, the Māyāpur project will extend to a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand inhabitants, its own university, airport and stadium. It will also claim the world's largest planetarium, with 410 foot high Temple of Understanding . . ." (break) . . . Vedic civilization. It sounds like a beautiful project. That is near Bombay, now? No, that is near Calcutta. Calcutta. About sixty miles. Have they progressed much now? *Yes, the enquiry is finished. Now government is considering to give that land. If they give, we shall like that. There were many others, land offers, in Hyderabad, but I wanted to start this institution in the . . . on the birth*-site of Lord Caitanya. Otherwise we have got better land. We have asked government for 350 acres, but we have already got, in Hyderabad, 600 acres. Here also we can get immediately 500, 600 acres, like that. We have already got another plot of land, 100 acres, in Ahmedabad. So there are so many lands available, but I wanted to start this project in Māyāpur, the birthsite of Lord Caitanya. Therefore we are waiting. If they say no, then we shall attempt it somewhere else. In Calcutta also there is a project? Hmm? . . . (indistinct) That is not very important. Well, it's been most interesting to meet you and hear you. I . . . unfortunately I have to go to Agra this evening. So I really want to thank you, and I will remember this, and I will read your writings and think very deeply on what you . . . Yes. . . . said to me and . . . (indistinct) . . . this . . . Therefore I recited also. It is the real utilization of every education. *Right. But the Bhagavad*-gītā is very wonder . . . it's . . . since I first read it, it's been one of my favorite . . . You are reading? Yes, I . . . I try to read it frequently, because it gives me some real spiritual . . . And if you want to know further, you can write to me. Good. I'll take back your blessing to Slippery Rock when I go back there. Yes, and there, so many old friends, you can offer them. Okay. Dr. Morrison and Dr. Sharma, so many other people . . . There is Sydney Weld there, when I went. Very good. Is the friend which you were . . . you were staying with somebody in Butler? Yes. Is he still there? No. That friend was one of my friends' son. I see. The boy went there for learning engineering. But she (he) settled there marrying one English girl. I became his guest for about a month. Then I came to New York. I see. Was the place Slippery Rock? Was that the first college . . .? No, the place was Butler. You were in Butler, right? Yes. And then you spoke at a college. In the college, yes. Every time I go to that hall I remember the story that you spoke there. Oh, they still say. Yes. You must have left some kind of blessing upon it. It has a nice atmosphere. That was in 1965. *Sixty*-five. That far back. About eleven years ago. Such a short time, and so many changes. Yes. The growth, the temple here, beautiful. On my next trip to India . . . Yes, you can come and stay here or in Bombay. We have got . . . But I want to see the one . . . the city when it's constructed. That would be really . . . Oh, that is . . . yes. I hope that is . . . in Calcutta will be a success story. You have got the contemplative man with you . . . (indistinct) Yes, sir. This will be over 300 acres if it's . . . Three hundred fifty acres. It's a large city. Fifty thousand, did you say, people? How many people were there? Fifty thousand. Fifty thousand. Expecting fifty thousand. The real peace movement. That's what we're trying to bring together here in this city. (indistinct conversation going on as plans are shown) and then all around, the different communities, vaiśya community, the merchant community, trade community . . . (indistinct) . . . their own communities. I see. According to the Vedic system (indistinct speaking as devotees explain the plans) You have got? That's the purport to that verse? Read? Hmm? Yes. *"Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire to the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu*-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection or self realization depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. "Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation of the Lord or His different energies because the Lord has set in motion by His inconceivable energy actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is therefore different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them. When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord the whole process becomes absolute." "The Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him. Therefore all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all the branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets, and celebrated littérateurs are generally engaged in writing sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord, they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord, and by doing so they become immortal. Similarly science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord." *"There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all*-powerful. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All knowledge not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord. And that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factual hari-kīrtana , for the glorification of the Lord." Well I will remember this. And I will read, look into your writings much more closely . . . Yes. . . . when I get back. Could I ask you if you might sign . . . put your name in . . . autograph? Oh, yes. Could you do that, please? So you can give him that book. Scientific Basis? Would you like to read this book? Yes, I will read that, yes. So I'll sign in that book. Okay, okay, fine. Yes, that would be good. Very good. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much for your time . . . Yes, I thank you for your coming. We want educated boys like you. Good. Well, I will communicate what you said. Oh, yes. I think . . . as soon as I . . . (indistinct) (indistinct) . . . all human society. It is not a sectarian movement. Well, I'm very glad I had the chance to meet you, to learn . . . because when you meet . . . when you hear things second source . . . secondary source, it's not like . . . Do you think our presentation is all right? Yes. It's very fine. And I'll try to help the people . . . my mother is from Texas. My family lives there. Oh. And I'll try to help them understand better what the situation is. So . . . Thank you very much. (break) (end) Conversation -- November 6, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper) *The present time, it is called Kali*-yuga. (aside) Take little prasādam . Kali-yuga means this age . . . Kali-yuga means the age of quarrel and disagreement. Age of . . .? *Quarrel and disagreement. Because there is no standard idea. So I'll disagree with you, you'll disagree with me, and on slight provocation there will be fight. This is age called Kali*-yuga. Do you see that nations will fight too? That there will be wars, things like that? Yes, so many difficulties. Even there is no war, the natural disturbance and foolish government will create such situation that people will become mad in hopelessness. Very dark. Very dark, yes. First thing, there will be no rainfall. Due to the sinful activities of the people, from nature the punishment will be there will be no rainfall. I have seen already in Europe. Everywhere there is scarcity of rainfall. And on account of scarcity of rainfall, food production will be reduced. They will try to eat meat, killing, and maintain themselves. But that is also not very prospective. How long you will . . .? The animals will also die. Then in Europe they are doing that, that on account of scarcity of rain there is no grass, so they are thinking, "These animals die for want of food. Let us eat them." This is their intelligence. Well, do you see that many people will die, because there's not . . . many people will die. Yes. If there is no rainfall, either animal or men, they will die for want of food. What do you think would be the remedy or solution to the problem? *Remedy is they should admit that there is God. But they do not admit, especially the so*-called scientist rascals and atheist philosophers, politicians. They do not accept the authority of God. They think they will be able to manage things in their own way. And they say clearly, "There is no God." But there is nature. You can say, "I don't care for the government," but the government force is there; police is there; military is there. Similarly, you may say: "Defy the control of government," but the agent of God is there, the material nature. That will punish you. There will be no rain, there will be no food production, and the rascal governments will take advantage of it, "food relief." They'll tax, as if by taxing they will be able to combat with nature. So three things we'll have to meet: no rain, no food, and government taxes. Then how people will remain in sane condition? They will become mad. But your teaching, doesn't it offer a way of meeting these problems? Yes. We are teaching people God consciousness. Then everything will be solved. You say that man does not understand nature. The scientist studies nature, but yet he doesn't really understand it. Why they do not understand it? Why don't you understand that there is control over us? Where is the difficulty? Foolishly we do not try to understand. Do you admit it, that above us there is control? Do you admit? Oh, yes. No, anyone. Some people do. Why others? That means they are foolish. Yes. Well, each person has his own thought. No, no, that means . . . he may be rascal, but it is a fact there is control over us. Just like if there is no rain, is it not control over you? Can you produce rain? I would say that there is a universal intelligence guiding everything. Yes, that means control. How can you deny the control over you? What do you understand is man's place in nature? Should he invent, let's say, electricity? Should he invent machines? Do you think these are good, or should he just leave those alone? Well, these are good or bad. Suppose if there was no this comfortable pad. That does not mean that I cannot sit. If there was no electricity, it does not mean we would have died. No. There was lamp. We were doing that. So we don't condemn electricity, but it does not mean because we have got electricity, we shall deny the authority of God. That is rascaldom. Yes. That is rascaldom. You might have improved from the oil lamp to electricity. That does not mean that you have the control over God. Yes, certainly not. So these foolish rascals, because they have improved little, they are denying, "Oh, now there is no need of God. That is opiate." What is that? Opiate? Opiate of the people. "They make the man foolish, God consciousness," and so on, so on. These scientists, they declare, "What is God? This is all superstition." But in the world there seem to be many different religions, many different faiths. Religion you may have. Religion means to try to understand God. Any religion—you take Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muhammadan religion—there is little attempt to understand God. So any religion which gives you knowledge of God and you understand what is relation with God, that is perfect religion. We have no quarrel. Do you think if all men . . . let's say, all the religions could try to come together . . . Religion means to understand God and to follow God's order. That is religion. Just like government and government law. So if the citizen understands what is the law of the government and abides by it, then he's a good citizen. Similarly, any person who understands God and abides by the order of God, then he is religious. Why do you stand? You may be Christian; *I may be Hindu, he may be Muhammadan. It doesn't matter. Everyone should understand God and the relationship with God and act accordingly. Then it is perfect religion. And if there is no conception of God, no carrying out order of the God, that is not religion. That is cheating. But generally they do not accept God—still, he is stamping himself that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian." He has no idea what is God, how to abide by His order, and they are fighting that "I am Christian and you are Hindu. Therefore we must fight." This is going on. Nobody understands what is God. Pseudo*-religion. Practically there is no religion. If there is no government—you make your law, I make my law—then how there will be peace? That is the position. They do not understand what is God, and "I am Christian" or "Hindu" or "Muhammadan, now let us fight." That's all. Do you think that there is a special way that Hinduism looks upon man's place in the universe? "The Hindu religion" is a vague term. It's a what? *It is a vague term. It is not clear. It is not clear. Real term is, it is called Vedic principle. Vedic principle. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: Vedic knowledge means to understand God. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam ( BG 15.15). So anyone who tries to understand God, he is in the Vedic line. Veda means knowledge, so as you get the stock of knowledge, that is called Vedas . But as soon as we say Vedas , they think it is Hindu. Mathematics is a science. So any scientific man will accept mathematics. Where is the question of Hindu mathematics? Gold is gold. If it is in the hand of Hindu, it is Hindu gold? Hindu, Muslim gold? Gold is gold. But when we give the Vedic knowledge, they think it is Hindu idea. Are you saying that this knowledge has appeared in many forms? Eh? Does it appear also in, let's say, Christianity, in Muslim, Muhammadanism? No, no, I say that every religion, there is an attempt to understand God. Why do they not understand God, what is God? Then everything will be solved. But they are decrying, "There is no God. God is dead," and "There is no need of God, now we have got science." In every step they are trying to kill God. That's all. That's true of certain people, but there are also many . . . Majority, they do not understand what is God. There are many sincere seekers, I think, in Christians and Muslims. At least I have met. Yes. That must be. There must be some sincere men. That can be admitted. But still the sincere man also does not understand clearly what is the meaning of God. "I believe in God." "I believe in God," they say. Just like in America they say: "We trust in God." But what is God, he does not know. So what is the meaning of this, "I trust in God"? That is a phobia. It probably means many things. If I say: "What do you mean by God?" they cannot give any clear definition. And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, "Here is God. Take Him." But they have no knowledge. They will say, "They are presenting some Hindu god," and then they do not accept Him. What do you understand by that word "God"? God means supreme controller. Super . . .? Controller. The master of the universe. That's it. Well is that . . . do you think that this concept is, let's say, the special insight of the Vedic? No, no. You, as a philosopher, you can understand that there is supreme controller. Can you deny it? I would . . . only with great difficulty, I think, it seems to me. Yes, it is . . . you cannot deny it. But they foolishly deny it. Therefore they are rascals. So how you can convince the rascals the right way? If you give me a dozen of dogs, can I convince him that what is God? Hardly. They have no capacity to understand. But they have no capacity. The modern civilization, we are creating dogs and hogs, so how they will understand God? Do you think there will always be a few who understand? Certainly. Unless one . . . but if there is a class of men, ideal, who understands God, then people will follow. We require one moon; *then the darkness will be dissipated. But if in the millions of stars, what is the use? So they are creating millions of rascals, not one sane man, the modern civilization, the so*-called philosophers, so-called scientists. Don't mind. This is the fact. Do you basically reject the modern civilization? No, no. I say they are being foolishly trained. I see. The whole education system is bad. Can you see no hope that there will be change? There is hope. There is cent percent hope, provided you accept the right way. But would you say the right way would have to be, let's say, to be a follower of Kṛṣṇa? "God" means Kṛṣṇa. What about . . .? As I understand, in the *Gītā* . . . *God . . . Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. So God must be all-attractive, full controller. Our definition of God is, All wealth, all power, all intelligence, all beauty, all renunciation. In this way. These are new books in French, Kṛṣṇa book and Upadeśāmṛta . This devotee has just brought them from Bhagavān dāsa. Oh. Thank you. When you have come? Two days ago. Oh. (to Professor) You know French language? Yes. Yes, I saw a copy earlier today at the . . . the man who did the translation, I forget his name. From Chicago, I think. He worked on the translation. It's very beautiful. Oh, you have seen it. Yes. I forget his name. It's very nice. Very beautiful. This is French book, Kṛṣṇa . Umāpati. Yes, Umāpati. Yes. Oh, Umāpati. He is here. Yes, I met him this afternoon. (break) . . . give the idea of God. To try to teach, try to help people understand. And now in India another danger is that so many rascals, they are declaring, "I am God." And this India, people have become so fallen down, they accept all these rascals as God. Do you think the same problem is here in India as in other countries? No, in your country there is no God. That is another problem. (laughter) There is no God. And here rascals are God. I see. The problem remains the same. You say frankly, "There is no God," but these rascals say: "There is God, but here is my God." And he says, "No, here is my God." No one knows the real God. (laughs) No one knows the real God. How does one distinguish between what is a false God . . . This is the formula. Just like aiśvaryasya . Now, you have got some money, but you cannot say that, "I have got all the money of the world." That you cannot say. You may possess some states, but you cannot say that "I am the owner of all the states." So God is the proprietor. You have got your country. Which country you belong to? United States. United States. So you have got certain area. But when you go to the seaside, then who is the proprietor of the sea? As philosopher, will you not think it? There is no proprietor, strictly speaking. Why no proprietor? A small tank if you dig, you immediately claim, "This is my tank," and such a big ocean, and there is no proprietor? As philosopher, how you can think like that? Well, I think of what is the basis of property, property is just a convention . . . (break) Suppose I go in a park. There is nice tank, reservoir of water, well decorated. And if I think, "There is no proprietor," is it not my foolishness? There must be one proprietor, but I do not know him. That is real sense. Similarly, everything has got proprietor. Why the sea and the land, the so many other things, why there is no proprietor? This is foolishness. I don't understand how this relates to distinguishing who are the true teachers . . . No, that I have already explained. Everyone is foolish now. You cannot distinguish who is thief and who is not thief. Thakbaj se gaon ojo. (The village is full of cheaters.) If you study everyone, you will find everyone is rascal at the present moment. But surely there are some who are sincere. Some must be there. There is no doubt about it. But they are so in minority, who will hear about them? "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." The whole world is rascal. If somebody is intelligent, who cares for him? Just like people laugh at me that I am talking of God. I am not only talking; I am writing so many books. My only endeavor is to understand God, that's all. There is no sectarian. And I am selling my books all over the world. So not that everyone is foolish. They're trying to understand my presentation, big, big scholars, big, big philosophers. Yes. Oh yes, we have many of them in our library. Yes. So there is knowledge. If people kindly take it, everything will be solved. But they have stubbornly denied, "No God." And I am stubbornly fighting, "Yes, there is God." That is the . . . now the whole America is combining to fight against me, opposition that, "This man is brainwashing, controlling the mind, and our children are kidnapped." They are bringing these charges against us. Just like you have come. Have I kidnapped you? Oh, no. (laughs) But these rascals say that I have kidnapped their children. But judgment has been taken. *There must be judgment, but people have become so rascal. So I am trying to convince, although single*-handed that, "There is God," and they are bringing opposition. That is the real philosophy. That is not only Indian philosophy; this is universal philosophy. Yes. God is for everyone. God, the almighty powerful. God is not Hindu God, Muslim God, Christian. God is God. Now when I say: "Here is God. His name is Kṛṣṇa. His father's name is Nanda Mahārāja," now they will laugh. Do you think if a person is to be a real believer in God he has to also worship Kṛṣṇa or speak of Him? *No, God means Kṛṣṇa. He has to understand it. Therefore so many books. God has many names, millions, of which Kṛṣṇa name is the most important. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. Then you have to understand the science of God. How Kṛṣṇa is God, that you have to understand. But for that reason we are publishing so many books. We have already published eighty-four books, simply in English language. And they are being translated in German, French, Portuguese, then Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Hindi, Bengali, like that. It's a very great effort. Yes. And we are getting response. Our books are selling like hotcakes. (laughter) Yes. This is about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, the person. : Kṛṣṇa, the person. His book. His book. Here it is written. : Yes, the Supreme Personality. "*Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*." It is written there? Yes, I saw it. "Supreme Personality of Godhead." Yes. *This is a book of Kṛṣṇa. "The complete resume of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ." Tenth Canto. : The person does not want to solve the questions. They want only to get riches. They want to get rich like . . . (indistinct) No, they don't want simple things. And what is the use of becoming rich man? It is all fruitless. Rich man you can become, but for how long you shall be rich? The nature is so cruel; *at any moment he'll take away everything. Then what is the use of becoming? No, you become rich man. There is no . . . but you should know that "Although I am rich, powerful, everything can be taken by nature at any moment." Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). That is statement of God, that "Any moment . . . you try to become rich, powerful, and president and minister, that's all right, but any moment, I can take everything from you." So who will protect himself? They have no brain that, "Whatever I have created, it can be taken at any moment." So what is that confidence? They have no inquiry even. That this is a fact. Either you become Napoleon, Hitler or Gandhi or this or that, any moment everything will be taken away, "Get out." Not only that, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), you have to accept another body. And that is no guarantee what body you are going to get, because it is fully under the control of nature. They therefore don't believe in transmigration of the soul. And that is very great botheration. They try to evade. But Kṛṣṇa says, God says: "You cannot evade. It is nature's law." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Within your body the soul is there. On account of presence of the soul—you were a child, now you are a grown young man—the body has changed. You were a boy, now you are young man. So on account of presence of the soul, the body is changing. So when this body will be finished, the soul will exist. Therefore, naturally you have to conclude there will be another body. Is it possible to escape the conditions of being in the body? Yes, that is possible. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And that is the real problem. As soon as you get a body, you are in trouble. What is the purpose of there being a body? Being in body means . . . what is the purpose of being in the jail? Is there any purpose? Certainly for some punishment. Yes. So because we are punished, therefore we are getting this body. Why does man . . . why does the soul come into the body in the first place? Punishment. But he must have done something . . . You want to enjoy. Can you understand this? Everyone is trying to enjoy. So enjoy independently means that you don't care for . . . that is the fact. They don't care for God. So because they don't care for God, therefore they are punished, "You take care of your body." And as soon as you care for God, then there is no material body. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti . So God, therefore, teaches us how to get out of this body. That's the whole idea of mokṣa ? Hmm? Mokṣa ? *Yes, that is. Mokṣa means to stay in your original body. And bondage means we want different types of enjoyment, so God gives us the facility: "All right. Enjoy." If I do not make any discrimination of food . . . as human being, we must have discrimination. But if you don't discriminate, then you get the body of a pig. You can eat even stool. If you want to eat meat unrestricted, you become a tiger. Nature will give you facility. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara . And there are 8,400,000's of bodies. So according to your desire, you'll get a body. God will give you. Is that what is meant when a man thinks when he dies, at the moment of his death . . . Yes. He goes there. Are there many places, let's say, beyond the physical? So many places. Don't you see, night? *No, I mean beyond this physical, three*-dimensional universe. *Oh, yes. This is only one*-fourth part manifestation of God's property. The three-fourth part is the spiritual world. Are there different regions for these higher worlds? *Beyond this universe. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). Find. He'll find out. Every information is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . *In the Bhagavad*-gītā . Mmm. That is the beginning of God consciousness. Naśyatsu na vinaśyati . When everything in this material will be annihilated, that will exist. There is another world. Read it. "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." Purport? Purport: "Kṛṣṇa's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahmā. Kṛṣṇa's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter." There are two natures. One is material nature; *one is spiritual nature. The material nature—earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego—and beyond that, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām . This is inferior nature. Beyond this, there is a superior nature. And that superior, jīva*-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). That is the living entity. This big universe, this is material. But the living entities, because they are using this material for their so-called advancement, comforts . . . and because they have the power to utilize these material matters for their own purpose, they are superior. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā . And because this nature is being utilized, one is being utilized and one is utilizer. The utilizer is the superior, and the things utilized, they are inferior, but both of them are nature, God's nature. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā . Is there time in the higher nature? Hmm? Is there time? No. Higher nature means eternal. There are no changes in the higher nature? Changes when he gets into this material, inferior nature. He has to change the body, one circumstance to another, another, another, according to his desire. Just like you get a lump of dirt. You can mold it. You can make a pot. You can make a doll. So we are doing that. Child . . . the father has given birth to the child, and father has given the child a lump of earth, and he's playing. That's all. For both of them, the father is the proprietor. If the child wants to play, father says: "All right, play." So he's sometimes breaking, sometimes crying, sometimes laughing. This is going on. Then he goes back. Yes, if he gets sense. Therefore the father comes, that "You give up all this nonsense. Come home." So if you surrender to God, if you have grown up from the childish nature to the real human nature, then surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God. Then our life is perfect. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). (aside) Find out this verse. "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." *That's it. So everyone can become a great soul if he accepts the proposal of God. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śara . . . (BG 18.66). Everything is solved. But that he'll not do. Just like your first question was the "How to solve these problems?" The problems will be solved as soon as he surrenders to God. But that he'll not do. He is bigger than God. He will make solution by his own plan. This is the difficulty. Is that because of the age? *No, this is the . . . just like anyone is in the prison house, they are all criminals. But some of them are first*-class prisoners, some of them second-class, some of them third-class. But they are prisoner. Similarly, according to different time, people are more or less god . . . godless. So this time is more godless. The prison house is filled up with more third-class prisoners. How long does that period last? Well, now this age will . . . the duration of this age is calculated 4,3200 . . . 432 hundred thousands of years. Out of that we have passed only 500,000 . . . no, five thousand years. A long time to go. Yes. But why should you wait for the long time? You can go back to home, back to . . . immediately. That is our proposal, that "Why should you wait?" This may be long time. But we . . . you give up the connection with the material world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then after giving up this body you go back to home, back to Godhead. Then you have no connection, this. But we are make planning here, "We shall be comfortable." This is rascaldom. We indulge our time . . . *We should stop all rascal plan and should take the plan given by God. Then it will be . . . everything will be all right. Simple solution. The God's plan is there in this book. Let us take it. Then everything is solved. But "No, we are scientist. We are philosopher. We are big man, politician. We shall make our own." Do, and suffer. God has given freedom: "All right." Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Kṛṣṇa is saying in the Bhagavad*-gītā after explaining Arjuna everything, then He asked, "What you have decided? Your plan or My plan?" So Kṛṣṇa said, "I am giving you freedom. Whatever you like, you can do." The plan is there. Now it is up to us to accept it or reject it. If you reject, you suffer. If you accept, you become happy. So we are requesting people, "Accept it." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Then you'll be happy." But who cares for us? He is making his own plan. Therefore he must suffer. Nature's law he cannot avoid. That's not possible. Nature's law, there is drought. And if God likes, immediately there will be rain. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ . That is also stated. (aside) So read that. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, annād . *The formula is there. (devotees looking for verse) Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ , yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ . Annāt , a-n-n-a-t . Get this light there on. This one? Yes, the outside. So all philosophers, all scientists, all politicians, let us combine together. The formula is there. (aside) Read it. "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of yajña , sacrifice, and yajña is born of prescribed duties." *That's it. There is no prescribed duties. Everyone is a butcher. Formerly there was distinction: "Here is a butcher," "Here is a religious man." At the present moment everyone is a butcher. Who is religious man? There was division, at least one class, first*-class man, second-class man, third-class man. Then, if there is ideal first-class man, even the fourth class, third class, he'll take the idea, "Oh, here is first class." But there is no first-class man. All fourth-class men. So who will give idea? And they want to remain fourth class. If you say that "You become first class," they will laugh: "What is the use of becoming first class?" First class means, find out, śamo damas titikṣā, then, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam . Śrīla Prabhupāda, what did you want? You asked me to do something . . . I want the light on the veranda. It's on. That's all right. *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." *And if I teach that "I'll teach you how to become truthful," they will laugh. People will say: "Can anyone exist nowadays, simply becoming truthful?" Then damaḥ , self*-controlled. If I say: "Come here. I shall teach you how to control your senses," he will laugh that, "What is this nonsense? We shall enjoy life, and shall control senses?" This is the description of the first-class man, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava , saralatā , simplicity. No one is prepared to become first-class man. They will laugh. These are all primitive ideas. You think there is nobody like that? *Not nobody, there are. But people generally will not like that, "These are primitive ideas, to become truthful, simple and controlling the mind, controlling . . . these are all imaginary things. How one can live in the struggle for existence by becoming truthful?" They will say like that. Therefore everyone is fourth class. And the second*-class man, kṣatriya? "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas ." *This is kṣatriya . Now, who is kṣatriya ? A fourth*-class man, he never seen battlefield, and by vote he becomes president. And here kṣatriya means yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam . If there is fight he must come forward first of all. He is in his palace, and he's engaging common men, "Go and fight." When there was Battle of Kurukṣetra, Arjuna and Duryodhana, they came first. Because the battle was decided as soon as the leader is dead. No more fight. So they used to come first. This is kṣatriya . Where is that kṣatriya ? And they are becoming politicians simply by votes, all third-class, fourth-class men. What he'll do? Everyone is trying to keep his position by hook and crook. How he'll think of the people? How they will be happy? He is thinking of his own happiness. And these are politicians. There is no kṣatriya . There is no Brahmin. And there is no vaiśya . What is the vaiśya ? *Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). *Hmm. A vaiśya means he should provide food. So food means agriculture and giving protection to the cows. If you have got sufficient food grains and milk, the whole food question is solved. And these rascals, they are not giving protection to the cows, but they are killing cows. So there is no third*-class men even. All fourth-class. So how you can be happy under the control of fourth-class men? There is no first-class men, no second-class men, even no third class. That means all fourth class, fifth class. That's all. This is the human society, combination of fourth-, fifth-, tenth-class men. Tenth-class. The fourth-class . . . there are fourth-class men and more than that, fifth-class men, uncivilized. Aborigines, they are fifth class. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). There are so many. In the human civilized . . . civilization means there must be first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Then rest all fifth class, up to tenth class. But at the present moment there is some fourth-class men and all fifth class, sixth class, up to tenth class. So how we can be happy? There is no first-class men, there is no second-class men, not even third-class men. Who is caring for agriculture? They are preparing Goodyear Tire. Now eat tires. You rascal, eat tires. How long you'll eat tires? If there is no customer for tire, they're finished. *So that is coming. I went to Detroit about six months ago. There're factories. They have manufactured the wheels, huge stock. That means they are not selling. And the Goodyear Tire, they advertising, "So many millions tires we are manufacturing." You have been in Detroit? Yes. They're proud that "We have manufactured so many tires, so many wheels." The time will come when there will be no purchaser for tires and wheels, and they'll starve. That is coming. What they will do? If they become hungry there is no food grain. For some time they will eat, killing the cows, and then there will be no food, and what these tire and wheels will do? But there is no first*-class brain, that "We are wasting time by manufacturing tires and wheels. Without wheels we could live, but how we shall live without food grain?" There is no brain, no first-class men, no second-class men, no third-class men. There are farmers who produce . . . Well, in your country there is some adjustment because it is very big country, and you are all intelligent people. In other countries they are . . . but even though you have got resources, if you not properly utilize it, then the bad time is coming. You should expect. If your energy is all engaged in manufacturing tires and wheels, then who will go to the . . . actually I have seen in your country. Now the farmers' son, they do not like to remain in the farm. They go in the city. I have seen it. The farmers' sons, they do not like to take up the profession of his father. So gradually farming will be reduced, and the city residents, they are satisfied if they can eat meat. And the farmer means keeping the . . . raising the cattle and killing them, send to the city, and they will think that, "We are eating. What is the use of going to . . ." But these rascals have no brain that, "If there is no food grain or grass, how these cattle will be . . .?" Actually it is happening. They are eating swiftly. "The cattle will die. Before they die, let us kill and eat." Actually it is happening. In Italy they killed because the problem is twenty thousand cows. This is going on. They do not care that killing is sinful, because they don't care for God. This is going on. And sinful, sinful, sinful, everyone will be punished. The nature's law will act. Thakbaj se gaon ojo. (The village is full of cheaters.) There is a Bengali proverb, thakbaj se gaon ojo, (the village is full of cheaters,) that "One man wanted to take statistics, 'How many thieves are there in this village?' So when he began to take statistics, he saw everyone is thief. Then he said that 'What is the use of making statistics? This is village of thieves, that's all.' " So it is . . . at the present moment this is the position. If you make a statistics who is sinful and who is not sinful, you will find all sinful. And because they are sinful, they decry the existence of God. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante . . . (aside) Find out this, Seventh . . . because they are all sinful, they deny the existence of God. This is the position. Read it. "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest amongst mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me." *That's it. So you'll find everyone of this description, either sinful or lowest of the mankind or rascal or puffed*-up with false knowledge. But basic principle is: no God. So the only solution is let them first of all become God conscious. Then all solution. Otherwise there is no hope. The problem is very complex . . . Yes, it must be complex. They will create complexity. And the solution is very simple. Solution. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām . . . and that we are preaching, that "You become God conscious. Everything will be solved." And who is caring for us? Rather, they are giving opposition that, "These rascals are kidnapping our sons, brainwashing, controlling the mind," creating courts case. Just see. This is going on. Do you see as a . . . when you're describing that if the world were going to be God conscious, it would . . . Everything will be solved. But you were describing the caste system or the . . . This is not caste system. It is natural. There is always an intelligent class of men in the society. So they should be, what is called, listed. They should be trained up properly. How do you envision . . .? Would you envision . . .? *Just like you are a philosopher. So you should not make only theories, "perhaps." But actually, by your philosophy, you establish the existence of God. Then you are philosopher. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya . . . (SB 1.5.22). Find out this verse in the Bhāgavata . Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka . If by your philosophical knowledge you prove, "Yes, there is God," then your philosophy study is perfect. And if you philosophize, "There is no God," that is useless waste of time. To gain popularity, if you make philosophy like . . . in your country there are so many rascal philosophers—Darwin, Freud. They are all rascals. They are predominant. I think there is some misunderstanding that many Americans may have about teaching that you have. Maybe you can clarify it. No you clarify it. It is your duty. You are philosopher. Well, that's why I am trying to understand it. Yes. I think it's something like this, that . . . I've learned it from other of your devotees, or devotees of Kṛṣṇa. No, we have got our books. You are philosopher. You can read. You can understand the whole thing. There is no question of "This devotee, that devotee." We are giving in writing. So we cannot deny that. The question, though, is that there seems to be an advo . . . you advocate that there be a kind of Vedic society, that you are . . . *No, Vedic means knowledge, intelligent society. Why do you understand Vedic? Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda*-vido jñānena . This Veda word coming from knowledge. When I say that, "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Is there any objection? If I say that "Here is Mr. Such-and-such, a man of knowledge," so is there any objection? Is there a what? Is there any objection? Is there any objection. Will anybody object? It depends on whether the man shows himself to be a man of knowledge. No, no. If I present you that, "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Everyone welcomes knowledge. Yes, but one has to also show that he has knowledge. Yes. That is next. First of all, if I say that "Here is a man of knowledge," where is the objection? Now, whether you are man of knowledge, that will be tested next. But if I introduce you that, "Here is a man of knowledge . . ." Similarly if I say: "Here is man who knows *Vedas* ," so why the objection? Knowledge is for everyone. Why do they take, "Oh, *Vedas* , oh, it is Hindu"? Immediately you reject. I don't think it's so much question of rejecting the *Vedas* . . . *No, Vedas , they do not know what is Vedas . They think it is Hindu. This is the difficulty. As soon as say " Bhagavad*-gītā ," "Oh, it is Hindu idea." Well, many, many people do . . . *But that means they do not know what is the meaning of Bhagavad*-gītā , what is the meaning of Vedas . Unnecessarily they put some outside . . . just like they are doing now. They do not know what is knowledge, and they are accusing us that we are brainwashing. We are forbidding our devotees, "Don't eat meat." Oh, they are taking it: "It is revolutionary. Eh? How these men, they are stopping?" (someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Apni bhalo achen? Ami Bholanath. Ami Benaras e thaki, ami ajke . . . (How are you? I am Bholanath. I am from Benaras, today . . .) (break) *So this is difficulty. If I say, "Here is a person who knows mathematics," why there should be . . . any person who is interested in mathematics will welcome him. So similarly, here is Vedic knowledge. Vedic knowledge means real knowledge. Here is Bhagavad*-gītā , the knowledge of God, but they misunderstand it. They think, "Oh, we have got another God." How God can be another? So people should be sober, that we are giving books. They should understand. And it is accepted by the educated class, big, big professors, big, big philosophers. It is not blind faith. Just like this version of Bhagavad-gītā , tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "As we are changing body even in this duration of life, similarly, when this body is finished, then another body." So where is the difficulty to understand? But they will say, "It is Hindu idea." Fact we are presenting that, "You are changing your body. When you came out of the womb of your mother, the body was so small. And then little bigger body, little bigger body, little bigger body. Now you are full-grown young man." So the body is changing, everyone can understand. But I can understand also that, "I had so big . . . small body and this body. Then body is changing; I am existing." Then where is the difficulty of the transmigration of the soul? Many people do accept it. But as soon as we say . . . "Oh, this is Hindu idea"; reject immediately. This is science, and they are taking "Hindu idea." The problem is that identification only Indian philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise it is universal philosophy. It is universal, but they are taking it as Indian. In order to identify that, Vedic, let's say Indian, actually that is not Indian. *No, whatever it may be, knowledge is knowledge. It may be Indian or American, it doesn't matter. Just like university. Some student from India go to university in America to study higher knowledge. So that means that because he has gone to America, that is American knowledge? Knowledge is knowledge. So they should take on this background. But they are thinking that we are spoiling their children, brainwashing, controlling the mind, because against their principle, against their uncivilized way of life: meat*-eating, illicit sex, intoxication. This is uncivilized life. Why a man, civilized man, shall eat meat? He can prepare so many nice things. He has learned how to produce food, food grain. When they are uncivilized—there is no food; they do not know how to grow food—they can eat animal in the jungle. But if after becoming civilized, if you are eating the same thing, then what is the difference between civilization and not civilization? You have learned. And especially in your America you can get all nice foodstuff. You have got sufficient grains, sufficient fruits, sufficient vegetables, sufficient . . . everything sufficient. Why you should eat meat? This is uncivilized life. They could not give up the uncivilized way of life. And when you teach that "You become civilized. Give up this all nonsense. Don't eat." "Oh, it is brainwashing." You see? We are teaching them to become civilized, and they are taking it brainwashing. *Is that a teaching of the Bhagavad*-gītā , that one should not eat meat? *Yes. Not . . . meat*-eating is third-class man's eating. It is not denied. Amedhya . But to give us our life, don't kill cows, because it gives you milk, very substantial food. If you want to eat meat, you can eat the hogs and dogs. But don't kill the cows. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). This is special. It is not forbidding meat-eating, but don't eat cows' flesh. That is loss. It is a great loss to the human society. If they do not have sufficient milk production, then their brain will be dull. They will not be able to understand subtle things. Therefore it is better to avoid it. But if you cannot avoid, you can eat some inferior, useless animals. But don't touch the cows. This is Bhagavad-gītā . Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . He never says pig- rakṣya . You can eat pig. You can eat the goats, the lambs. There are so many small useless animals. They are eating dogs also. The Chinese people, they eat dogs. *So you can eat dogs, hogs, so many other animals. But don't touch the cows. This is God's instruction. And they are advertising that, "The Hindus, they are so fool, they are worshiping an animal, a cow." They do not know what is the economic value of this cow. In the beginning of your life you want milk immediately in the morning. And you are killing the mother. You are civilized? Do you think? You take milk up to the point of death. In South Africa, before killing the cows, they drag out milk and then send it. Milk is important, but because they are uncivilized, they do this. You take milk. Instead of killing, you prepare so many nice things from milk which is good for brain, good for intelligence. But they do not know because uncivilized. Foolish fourth*-class men. So we are trying to bring them to become first-class men, and they are accusing of brainwash. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." We are teaching that "These boys, they are becoming first class." Anyone will worship them. How nice they look, how behavior, how their character. We are creating this, and they are accusing, "Oh, they are kidnapping our children." (aside to guest) Why you are going? Eh? Why you are going? . . . ap baat kijiye. (. . . please continue.) *Ācchā . So this is our position. Now you are philosophers. You try to understand the whole philosophy and combine together. People have become all fourth*-class, tenth-class, uncivilized men. They should be given the idea of God consciousness. I don't say only in the Western country. Everywhere this is the problem, all fourth-class men. So there is possibility to bring the fourth-class men to the first class. That is educational. It can be done. There is no difficulty. So this is the education, how to make fourth-class men or fifth-class men to come to the first-class standard. (aside) What is that? Which verse I wanted? Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the *Vedas* , sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry." *Yes. Now, suppose you are a well*-known philosopher. If you say: "There is God," so many people will hear, "Oh, here is a big philosopher." Therefore your studies of philosophy will be perfect when you establish, "Yes, there is God." Otherwise it is useless, because you will waste your time and you'll waste . . . already they are godless. How does one establish clearly? *That requires thinking. That requires knowledge. Therefore we are giving so many books. You can study. You can present the case nicely with argument, philosophy. That is your duty. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānu . . . when you are able to describe God very philosophically, scientifically, mathematically, then your education is perfect. Are there any books particularly that focus on all this? *Every . . . there are so many books. There are so many books. The primary book is the Bhagavad*-gītā , yes, as it is, if you take it as it is. If you amend it to your whimsical way, then it is gone. Therefore we are presenting. This word we have added, Bhagavad-gītā "As It Is." Don't try to amend it. Then it will be foolishness. *If I wanted to know Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, you'd have to read Sanskrit, wouldn't you? No, we have this English translation. This is in French translation, in German translation. How does one decide . . . there are so many translations. How does one decide . . . *That depends on your philosophy. You are reading so many books. How do you select, "This is nice"? That depends on your philosophy. But if you accept it that it is spoken by God, then there is no argument. But why should you accept it, spoken by God? You read it, whether how much logical, how much full of knowledge. Then you can say. The same thing—just like Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "Within this body there is the soul, and because the soul is there, therefore body is changing." So anyone can . . . any layman can understand. Things are there like that. So there is no difficulty. If we take, "Oh, this description, the transmigration of the soul—Hindu idea." Why Hindu idea? It is science. One usually thinks of it as Hindu because . . . As soon as we consider it "Hindu," then it becomes sectarian. Then you will say: "I have got my Christian idea. Why shall I take your Hindu idea?" What is your view towards Christianity? Christianity is to some extent, but you have got different edition of Christianity. So far I know, as soon as they say: "Christian," immediately the question, "To which Christian party you belong?" What is that? Christians, yeah. Protestants, Methodists, Catholics . . . *So which is correct Christianity we do not know. But we have no such thing. There is no party. Bhagavad*-gītā , there cannot be any party. If anyone makes any party, he is immediately cancelled. But at least we believe in the Ten Commandments. Now, Lord Jesus Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." But why all the Christians are simply busy in killing? That is my first question. Not all of them believe in . . . *Ninety*-nine percent, they are maintaining all big, big slaughterhouse, all Christians. And Lord Jesus Christ ordered, "Thou shall not kill," but they are killing. What kind of Christian he is? Disobedience to the order of Christ, and still he is Christian? These things are going on. Then again party, this "ism," that "ism," that "ism." First of all, all of them are disobeying the Ten Commandments, and then there are parties. So which one you'll accept? *There's no such diversity of interpretation of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? *No, no, apart from Bhagavad*-gītā , I am talking of Christianity. How you can disobey the orders of Christ and you become Christian at the same time? There's always people falling short of what their . . . That's it. That means they are all useless. If you are Christian, how you can defy the order of Christ? You will disobey the orders of Christ; *still you are Christian? Just like in India they are all denying the Vedic culture, and still they are Hindu? All these rascals. So therefore I say whole world is full of rascals. If the Christians accept this word, that Lord says: "Thou shall not kill," why shall we kill? Welcome. Never mind whether Christian or Hindu. Welcome. Similarly, in India, if they accept Bhagavad*-gītā , welcome. But everyone is rascal, mūḍha . Nobody cares for God, nobody cares for God's messenger. All rascals. This is the position. They are creating God. They are creating religion. They are creating sect. This is going on. (indistinct) . . . even though they are sincere . . . *That should be educated from the very beginning. Therefore we are opening gurukulas, sane brain. Otherwise their brain is spoiled by so*-called bad education. I inquired from your State Secretary that, "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so why not spread this God consciousness, 'What is God?' You blindly say, 'God in Trust,' but what is God? Do you know? So why not spread this science?" I received no reply up to date. They might have said: "Here is a crazy fellow. Nobody has inquired like this." That's all. They do not like to enter into the controversy. Actually they do not believe in God, but write, "In God We Trust," is it not? That's what they write. Yes, but they don't believe in God. Hypocrisy. Because if they trust in God, then they could not cheat that, "I am paying you one thousand dollars by some papers." This is cheating. And promise, "In God I Trust." Is that money? So this cheating is begun from the government. Now how the people will be honest? Everywhere, in all government, they are giving you some papers and you accept it as money. This is not brainwash. Just see. They are educating people that, "I promise to pay. This is money," but actually he's receiving some papers. This is not brainwash. And we are talking of God, that is brainwash. Perhaps when people . . . No, no, this is the present situation. When people will be honest, that is future. But I mean now, when they make these confrontations and give you these difficulties, perhaps it will give your people a chance to teach them and clarify . . . Well, that we are doing, but this is the opposition. That our boys are trained up. They are trying to meet the opposition. But my point is that such a nice thing we are giving. Why they should oppose? That means uncivilized. Why good thing should be opposed? They say: "In God We Trust," and we are speaking of God only. We have no other business, and they are opposing. And they write, "In God We Trust." Hypocrisy. "If we believe in God, we trust in God, all right, they are talking of God. Let us hear." That is sense. That Patrick? Patrick? He kidnaps our devotees. Ted Patrick. Yes. And by force trying to give him meat but now, if educated men of your country, they come forward, understand this philosophy, then combined effort . . . my philosophy is that American and Indian: American money and Indian culture, combine together; *the whole world will be changed. That is my philosophy. It is coming to some extent. These American boys, they help me. (aside) What is that newspaper cutting? Appeared in Bombay? Bring it. They have published this philosophy, my philosophy. Actually, if I not have gone to America, at least I could not publish . . . (indistinct) . . . when I was in India, with great difficulty I published three books only. And because I went to America, I was able to publish eighty*-four books. And it is going on still. These boys help me. Just like they are publishing now, still. Hmm. Read it. "The West is like a blind man, and the East is like a cripple . . ." No, read the heading and everything. (indistinct) . . . "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma, written by the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . the West is like a blind man, and the East is like a cripple, says A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder-ācārya of the International Society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The two should cooperate. The blind man should carry his lame companion, and the lame man should give guidance to his blind friend. In this way both will benefit. Similarly, the wealthier Western countries should assist the materially exploited East, and the East, particularly India, should help the spiritually blind West to understand scientifically the actual higher purpose of human life. To offer India's transcendental science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the West, Prabhupāda sailed from Bombay to New York City in 1965. After a year of great personal struggle, he established the first center of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In the next few years he attracted hundreds of sincere disciples and opened centers in dozens of American and European cities. He also established gurukula schools and farming communities based on the ancient Indian pattern. "In 1970 Prabhupāda returned to India and with the assistance of many Indian gentlemen and some of his disciples, he established ISKCON centers in Bombay, Delhi, Calcutta, Madras and the rural holy spots of Vṛndāvana, Lord Kṛṣṇa's place, and Māyāpur, West Bengal, the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Soon he attracted many Indian disciples as well, who opened centers in Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Chandigarh and in several rural areas. Today ISKCON has about one hundred āśramas , gurukula schools, temples and farming communities around the world. But according to Prabhupāda, his books are his most important contribution. In the last ten years he has published over eighty volumes in sixteen languages. Scholars in India and abroad have praised Prabhupāda's books as classics, scholarly and authoritative. Literally crores of his literatures are sold annually, and this figure is almost doubling every year. "How is it possible to sell so many books about Kṛṣṇa? Girirāja, president of the ISKCON center in Bombay, answers, 'People all over the world are looking to India for transcendental knowledge. They know that India's ancient Sanskrit literature speaks of lasting happiness beyond the frustration of material life. They are eager to buy our books because they know that we are presenting the genuine Vedic culture. In fact, many Westerners come here to discover the real India for themselves . . . (indistinct) . . . life experience. For this reason we are building a model Vedic community at our Juhu center in Bombay, providing all the modern amenities for scholars, students and sophisticated inquirers from abroad as well as from India who can study the original Indian culture and practice. The center will include a Vedic library, theater, prasādam restaurant, gurukula school, an international guesthouse, as well as a temple and āśrama .' *"ISKCON is also building a model Vedic community in Māyāpur near Calcutta based on cottage industry and agriculture. The important principle is that everyone must be gainfully employed. In ISKCON's Māyāpur project hundreds of persons operate spinning wheels and more than a dozen handlooms, dye the cloth, and . . . (indistinct) . . . printed in popular design, process rice and dāl by hand, crush sugarcane for sugar products, and manufacture by hand wooden shoes and other items of daily use. On twenty*-five acres of agricultural land in Māyāpur, ISKCON is developing and demonstrating scientific farming procedures such as crop rotation, organic fertilization, and using improved strains. ISKCON is also cross-breeding cattle from Canada and Australia with Indian cows to increase milk production. Thus the community provides its own cloth, food, and other daily needs, acts as an agricultural development and demonstration center, and additionally feeds thousands of people twice every week. Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON plans, the Māyāpur project will extend into a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand . . ." We have applied for 350 acres of land from the government. The process is going on. If we get, then we shall spend crores of rupees for . . . the description is . . . "Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON plans, the Māyāpur project will extend to a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand inhabitants, its own university, airport and stadium. It will also claim the world's largest planetarium, with 410 foot high Temple of Understanding . . ." (break) . . . Vedic civilization. It sounds like a beautiful project. That is near Bombay, now? No, that is near Calcutta. Calcutta. About sixty miles. Have they progressed much now? *Yes, the enquiry is finished. Now government is considering to give that land. If they give, we shall like that. There were many others, land offers, in Hyderabad, but I wanted to start this institution in the . . . on the birth*-site of Lord Caitanya. Otherwise we have got better land. We have asked government for 350 acres, but we have already got, in Hyderabad, 600 acres. Here also we can get immediately 500, 600 acres, like that. We have already got another plot of land, 100 acres, in Ahmedabad. So there are so many lands available, but I wanted to start this project in Māyāpur, the birthsite of Lord Caitanya. Therefore we are waiting. If they say no, then we shall attempt it somewhere else. In Calcutta also there is a project? Hmm? . . . (indistinct) That is not very important. Well, it's been most interesting to meet you and hear you. I . . . unfortunately I have to go to Agra this evening. So I really want to thank you, and I will remember this, and I will read your writings and think very deeply on what you . . . Yes. . . . said to me and . . . (indistinct) . . . this . . . Therefore I recited also. It is the real utilization of every education. *Right. But the Bhagavad*-gītā is very wonder . . . it's . . . since I first read it, it's been one of my favorite . . . You are reading? Yes, I . . . I try to read it frequently, because it gives me some real spiritual . . . And if you want to know further, you can write to me. Good. I'll take back your blessing to Slippery Rock when I go back there. Yes, and there, so many old friends, you can offer them. Okay. Dr. Morrison and Dr. Sharma, so many other people . . . There is Sydney Weld there, when I went. Very good. Is the friend which you were . . . you were staying with somebody in Butler? Yes. Is he still there? No. That friend was one of my friends' son. I see. The boy went there for learning engineering. But she (he) settled there marrying one English girl. I became his guest for about a month. Then I came to New York. I see. Was the place Slippery Rock? Was that the first college . . .? No, the place was Butler. You were in Butler, right? Yes. And then you spoke at a college. In the college, yes. Every time I go to that hall I remember the story that you spoke there. Oh, they still say. Yes. You must have left some kind of blessing upon it. It has a nice atmosphere. That was in 1965. *Sixty*-five. That far back. About eleven years ago. Such a short time, and so many changes. Yes. The growth, the temple here, beautiful. On my next trip to India . . . Yes, you can come and stay here or in Bombay. We have got . . . But I want to see the one . . . the city when it's constructed. That would be really . . . Oh, that is . . . yes. I hope that is . . . in Calcutta will be a success story. You have got the contemplative man with you . . . (indistinct) Yes, sir. This will be over 300 acres if it's . . . Three hundred fifty acres. It's a large city. Fifty thousand, did you say, people? How many people were there? Fifty thousand. Fifty thousand. Expecting fifty thousand. The real peace movement. That's what we're trying to bring together here in this city. (indistinct conversation going on as plans are shown) and then all around, the different communities, vaiśya community, the merchant community, trade community . . . (indistinct) . . . their own communities. I see. According to the Vedic system (indistinct speaking as devotees explain the plans) You have got? That's the purport to that verse? Read? Hmm? Yes. *"Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire to the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu*-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection or self realization depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. "Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation of the Lord or His different energies because the Lord has set in motion by His inconceivable energy actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is therefore different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them. When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord the whole process becomes absolute." "The Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him. Therefore all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all the branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets, and celebrated littérateurs are generally engaged in writing sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord, they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord, and by doing so they become immortal. Similarly science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord." *"There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all*-powerful. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All knowledge not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord. And that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factual hari-kīrtana , for the glorification of the Lord." Well I will remember this. And I will read, look into your writings much more closely . . . Yes. . . . when I get back. Could I ask you if you might sign . . . put your name in . . . autograph? Oh, yes. Could you do that, please? So you can give him that book. Scientific Basis? Would you like to read this book? Yes, I will read that, yes. So I'll sign in that book. Okay, okay, fine. Yes, that would be good. Very good. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much for your time . . . Yes, I thank you for your coming. We want educated boys like you. Good. Well, I will communicate what you said. Oh, yes. I think . . . as soon as I . . . (indistinct) (indistinct) . . . all human society. It is not a sectarian movement. Well, I'm very glad I had the chance to meet you, to learn . . . because when you meet . . . when you hear things second source . . . secondary source, it's not like . . . Do you think our presentation is all right? Yes. It's very fine. And I'll try to help the people . . . my mother is from Texas. My family lives there. Oh. And I'll try to help them understand better what the situation is. So . . . Thank you very much. (break) (end) Conversation -- November 10, 1976, Vrndavana (partially recorded) . . . still in the jungle. And they show the picture, Darwin's theory . . . Yes. Yes. Stoning animals. Prehistoric man. Huh? Prehistoric man. *Yes. So now civilization is not stoning the animal. "I have up*-to-date slaughterhouse." This is their civilization. Killing in big slaughterhouse. They remain the same thing, the animal eaters, but the process has changed. Process changed. Instead of stoning, in big, big cities haan, aur . . . (yes, and . . .) (aside) Ah. All right . . . you stand here, open up to the slaughterhouse, butcher. This is going on. Your standard remains the same. Yeah, doing the same thing. *Simply the, what is called, operation is changed. That is civilization. They have taken this is standard also in India. There was lamp, and the same lamp, now it is electricity, electric power. This is their civilization. There was some car, horse carriage, horse*-drawn carriage or cow-drawn carriage. Now you have a car. Is it not? Yes. *They do not know what is civilization. This is actual fact. They do not know what is civilization. This is civilization, huh? Brāhmaṇa . And they will think that, "What is this nonsense, to worship a brāhmaṇa , to give food to the brāhmaṇa*-bhojana ?" They have manufactured, "Why brāhmaṇa-bhojana ? There is . . . (indistinct) . . . they're daridra-nārāyaṇa ." (end) Conversation -- November 10, 1976, Vrndavana (partially recorded) . . . still in the jungle. And they show the picture, Darwin's theory . . . Yes. Yes. Stoning animals. Prehistoric man. Huh? Prehistoric man. *Yes. So now civilization is not stoning the animal. "I have up*-to-date slaughterhouse." This is their civilization. Killing in big slaughterhouse. They remain the same thing, the animal eaters, but the process has changed. Process changed. Instead of stoning, in big, big cities haan, aur . . . (yes, and . . .) (aside) Ah. All right . . . you stand here, open up to the slaughterhouse, butcher. This is going on. Your standard remains the same. Yeah, doing the same thing. *Simply the, what is called, operation is changed. That is civilization. They have taken this is standard also in India. There was lamp, and the same lamp, now it is electricity, electric power. This is their civilization. There was some car, horse carriage, horse*-drawn carriage or cow-drawn carriage. Now you have a car. Is it not? Yes. *They do not know what is civilization. This is actual fact. They do not know what is civilization. This is civilization, huh? Brāhmaṇa . And they will think that, "What is this nonsense, to worship a brāhmaṇa , to give food to the brāhmaṇa*-bhojana ?" They have manufactured, "Why brāhmaṇa-bhojana ? There is . . . (indistinct) . . . they're daridra-nārāyaṇa ." (end) Conversation -- November 11, 1976, Vrndavana So I saw that one, that Mr. Maidan, he has got so many boxes all down his room. So I ask him, "What are these?" "No, these are different cinema house collection. The ticket, half of the ticket, is put into this box before entering. So I count this slip. Then I can understand what is the income. That's all. Let them do whatever they . . ." So I am simply asking, "How many books they are selling?" (laughter) If the sale is going on, "All right, that's all right. Let them do whatever they like." The books are printed and distributed? That is all right. Then other things, you do whatever you like. Never ask. Where is Arundhatī? Probably still upstairs. Ask her to make that bitter melon separately in little quantity. Just fried or . . . No, boil and then fried. Make it soft. So any letter? All right. (break) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Everyone is going to die. Who is going to live? Who is here? Can you show me anyone who is going to live? Can you show me? No, everybody's going to die. So today or tomorrow, everyone will die. So where is the anxiety? Die or not die, tomorrow or today, but one should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Why one should be depressed? And everyone is going to die. I am going to die tomorrow, he is going to die day after tomorrow, he . . . everyone will have to die. Who will live here? So what is the anxiety? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Śrīla Prabhupāda, she'll die here . . . (indistinct) Nobody will live. Don't be anxiety. That's all. Anyone who has come to this material world will die. One is going to die today; another is going to die tomorrow. It is a question of first and second, but everyone will die. So before death one should be complete in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success of life. But if one . . . The tree is standing for thousands of years. So what is the use of living like that? A tree cannot chant Hare Kṛṣṇa but lives for thousands of years. Do you think that kind of living is very worthy, standing in one place, cannot move even, and what to speak of chanting? So you have got the chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Utilize that. Don't be anxious that, "I am going to die." Who is going to live? Why don't you understand that? Nobody is going to live. So before death one should be complete in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success. (Antardhyāna's young daughter, terminally ill) But if one is not, Śrīla Prabhupāda, what will happen? Hmm? If one is not complete in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness then what will happen? She will get again birth in a human body. That is guaranteed so that he'll get again chance of chanting. That is also great gain. Ordinary person, he does not know what body he is going to get next body. But a person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, chanting, he is guaranteed. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe ( BG 6.41). He is guaranteed to take birth as human being in a very sacred family like brāhmaṇa or very rich family. (pause) So I have to go. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is going to live here. Everyone is going to die. Before death, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't be worried. She is worried, Prabhupāda, about . . . What is the worry? I have already said everyone is going to die. She is worried about seeing the Yamadūtas. This is what she is worried about. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, always think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is our business. The cats and dogs cannot do this. That is the advantage of human form of body. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- November 11, 1976, Vrndavana So I saw that one, that Mr. Maidan, he has got so many boxes all down his room. So I ask him, "What are these?" "No, these are different cinema house collection. The ticket, half of the ticket, is put into this box before entering. So I count this slip. Then I can understand what is the income. That's all. Let them do whatever they . . ." So I am simply asking, "How many books they are selling?" (laughter) If the sale is going on, "All right, that's all right. Let them do whatever they like." The books are printed and distributed? That is all right. Then other things, you do whatever you like. Never ask. Where is Arundhatī? Probably still upstairs. Ask her to make that bitter melon separately in little quantity. Just fried or . . . No, boil and then fried. Make it soft. So any letter? All right. (break) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Everyone is going to die. Who is going to live? Who is here? Can you show me anyone who is going to live? Can you show me? No, everybody's going to die. So today or tomorrow, everyone will die. So where is the anxiety? Die or not die, tomorrow or today, but one should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Why one should be depressed? And everyone is going to die. I am going to die tomorrow, he is going to die day after tomorrow, he . . . everyone will have to die. Who will live here? So what is the anxiety? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Śrīla Prabhupāda, she'll die here . . . (indistinct) Nobody will live. Don't be anxiety. That's all. Anyone who has come to this material world will die. One is going to die today; another is going to die tomorrow. It is a question of first and second, but everyone will die. So before death one should be complete in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success of life. But if one . . . The tree is standing for thousands of years. So what is the use of living like that? A tree cannot chant Hare Kṛṣṇa but lives for thousands of years. Do you think that kind of living is very worthy, standing in one place, cannot move even, and what to speak of chanting? So you have got the chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Utilize that. Don't be anxious that, "I am going to die." Who is going to live? Why don't you understand that? Nobody is going to live. So before death one should be complete in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success. (Antardhyāna's young daughter, terminally ill) But if one is not, Śrīla Prabhupāda, what will happen? Hmm? If one is not complete in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness then what will happen? She will get again birth in a human body. That is guaranteed so that he'll get again chance of chanting. That is also great gain. Ordinary person, he does not know what body he is going to get next body. But a person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, chanting, he is guaranteed. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe ( BG 6.41). He is guaranteed to take birth as human being in a very sacred family like brāhmaṇa or very rich family. (pause) So I have to go. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is going to live here. Everyone is going to die. Before death, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't be worried. She is worried, Prabhupāda, about . . . What is the worry? I have already said everyone is going to die. She is worried about seeing the Yamadūtas. This is what she is worried about. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, always think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is our business. The cats and dogs cannot do this. That is the advantage of human form of body. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- November 13, 1976, Vrndavana *. . . education, devotion, activities. Who can take more care than the father and the mother? So you combine together, make a batch of good character, ideal character in the whole world. There is no ideal character. Everyone is drunkard and meat*-eater or woman-hunter. What is the civilization? Hog civilization. (break) . . . civilization. Work hard, get some money, and spend it for intoxication, illicit sex. This is civilization. Is it not? They have no idea how to make civilized. I was hearing that before I left England there was some trouble in Scotland over the rules about the bars and drinking. And now they want to make a rule, a law, that the children can be allowed into the bars under their parents' . . . they make it a big social . . . They allow the children sit down. They take soda water, and the father, mother drinking. I have seen it. They are learning from the father and mother from the begin . . . My father used to . . . every Sunday they used to go to the pub, and then for Sunday afternoon, as a special treat, they would all get . . . we'd be given a glass of beer. Just see. Father, mother take . . . because they think it is civilization. Elderly boys, the father, mother tell, "What is the wrong, illicit sex? Take woman, take car. Enjoy life." I have seen it. They know, "This is life. Why . . .?" Therefore they say: "Brainwash. This Swāmījī is controlling their minds and brainwash." That is their charge. (pause) Wash, ne. The brain should be operated, surgical, to take out all the rubbish things from the . . . it is called membrane? Cerebrum? Cereb? Cerebral. Cere . . . not . . . it is all gobar . Take out. (pause) (referring to prasādam distribution) Ne , make khicuṛi . Puṣpānna rice? Little, little. Always keep it simple: purīs , one, and one other thing? No, one kind. Either purī or puṣpānna or khicuṛi , like that. You cannot make. Tonight I made sabjī and purī . Yes. That is easiest, purī and sabjī Similarly, khicuṛi and sabjī , puṣpānna and chutney, like that. Temple means feeding them with prasādam . In Bombay the Sunday Feast going on? We don't have so much facility to feed them, because there's only the temple floor, so there's always a big crowd and we have to do two shifts. So sometimes . . . When it will be complete, more facility. Oh, yes, then it will be . . . everything . . . *Take prasādam , see drama, read books, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās . And if you like, you can live with us. So where is the difficulty? Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā (BS 5.37). (pause) That American politician has predicted that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, within ten years, they will capture our government." (laughs) So do it actually. (laughter) Then it will be very nice. It is not . . . simply take the people in your favor—the government is yours. That they are afraid of. The young boys, they are taking Hare Kṛṣṇa movement seriously, so the government can be changed in their favor. After all, it is democracy, you can do it. You become president; you'll become senator. In America it is possible. And if America accepts . . . what about this new president? Or . . . formerly I heard about him that he is religious man. His mother is . . . she was working in India. Oh. So she's very favorable towards India. She was some type of social worker in India. His mother? Oh. Then at least he has got some good thinking. *They said . . . there's a movie star in Bombay, and he is . . . he's a friend of this Carter. So Jagat*-puruṣa is going to approach him. He's a very good friend of . . . because his mother, she was working in India and she knew this family. So they have a lot of friends in India. At least let them understand the philosophy. Balavanta may see and explain the philosophy. Balavanta knows him. Did Balavanta meet him? I think so. Balavanta's . . . there was one man, a black man who was running for mayor at the same time that Balavanta was, for Atlanta. And that black man dropped out of the race and supported Balavanta. He's a black man. Yes. Then later on, that man, he was appointed Lieutenant Governor under Carter. So Carter and this man are close, and through this man, Carter knows about Balavanta and the movement. You have written one letter? Yes. Balavanta is very intelligent boy. He can do that. (pause) Bring that spring water, little. You can type this? On your letterhead? Hmm, yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda, one of the students is just about fifteen, and he's been initiated now for a year, and I'd like to recommend him for second initiation. (break) . . . good hope for preaching in China. I have received letter from Trivikrama Mahārāja. What she is doing, Carter's mother, here? He's in India? Not anymore. Oh. She must have been a missionary. Part of the Peace Corps or something? Oh, that's it. She worked with the Peace Corps. Peace port? Peace Corps. What is that? That's an American organization. It sends out people all over the world to help the . . . Like a social workers' organization. Like when they have earthquakes and hurricanes in countries, the Peace Corps will go there, and they will do all the nursing and doctoring and helping people get homes . . . So unless there is earthquake, they will not work. No, that's not the Peace Corps. They send Peace Corps . . . Tejiyas was in Peace Corps. Tejiyas was in the Peace Corps. He was sent to India. In Telengana he was helping with agriculture. He would go to some village, underdeveloped. He would teach them how to plant nicely, fertilize, different things. He knows about that? Yes, he knows all about agriculture. Why don't we send him to Hyderabad? Yes. He worked there for about . . . Let him go to Hyderabad. He knows all about agriculture. Mm. And he speaks the language, too. Yes. It was Kennedy's idea, the Peace Corps. Kennedy started it. They started it because many young men did not want to go in the Army, but Army was forcible. So they said: "If you go in the Peace Corps, then you don't have to go in the war corps—you don't have to go in Army." So many people took that, "Oh, we'll go in the Peace Corps. We'll go as an alternative." Good idea. It has lost its popularity now. Eh? It is not very popular now. Why? In fact, in India they have ordered to leave, practically. Hmm? They say they had some connection with the CIA. That is politics. Yes, but . . . *He was a politician. That you cannot blame. Politics require all these things. A politician cannot be a saintly person. That is not possible. For politics he has to do so many things. That is necessary. Just like Arjuna wanted to be a nonviolent. Immediately it was condemned by Kṛṣṇa, "What is this nonsense? You are a military man. Nonviolent?" And similarly, politician, they require all this. Businessman must deal in black market. It is inevitable. Otherwise he cannot improve. Because the world is bad, you, if you become honest, then you cannot make pros . . . cannot become prosperous. Sate sārtham samācaret. Brāhmaṇa's dealing must be very straight and honest. They are not meant for politics or business. They are for transcendental knowledge. Kṛṣṇa conscious person should be all*-inclusive. He must be a politician, he must be a Brahmin , he must be a kṣatriya , he must be a śūdra —everything, all-inclusive. Because he is transcendental. In otherwise, he is neither a Brahmin , neither a śūdra , neither a . . . yes. Nāhaṁ vipro na ca nara-patir na yatir vā (Padyāvalī 63). Neither of these. In other side he is everything. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. As Kṛṣṇa is sometimes cowherd boy, politician, sometimes dancing with, artist—He is everything, not one-sided. (pause) So all food is finished? Yes, Prabhupāda. All vegetable also. All vegetable, all purīs . That's nice. ( japa ) (break) . . . Hindi book or English book? Hmm? You sold English book or Hindi book? Hindi magazine. Magazine only. Yes, everyone took magazines. Very good. I think there were some other books also. I didn't check that. Something he must take. He will read, understand our philosophy. (break) . . . Carter is good. Yes. I got a letter from Dharmādhyakṣa up in Surat two months ago. He was invited to the White House after our . . . he had an exhibition at Vancouver, that Habitat. So it was a world conference of solution to life, living. So he was invited. He met some of the officials there. He was invited to Washington, but he had to wait for Carter to become the President, because then it would be fifty percent more favorable because they have a relationship. And there these people . . . they . . . he said there's a great chance they will help us in India. So he is going to go there and speak with the . . . In India. No, Washington, D.C. That's in America. They invited one of our devotees there to discuss this Māyāpur and all this social type of . . . Dharmādhyakṣa. Dharmādhyakṣa. He's writing for that Back to Godhead magazine. He worked with Gurudāsa together. His article, one is there? Yes, "Simple Living, High Thinking." You saw that. So he met him. He met . . . not Carter. He met the government officials who were representing the United States Government at that exhibition, and they were very favorable. They were one of the most favorable, he said, the United States. Yes, our "Plain living, high thinking" is very nice idea. Actually, it's the only practical solution. Mr. Carter is a farmer, peanut farmer. Oh. That's how he gained his money. He's the biggest peanut farmer in America. (laughs) He started out in the military. He was in the Navy. Then afterwards . . . his father had a peanut farm, and then his father became sick, so then he gave up his Navy thing. He came back to take care of the family. Then he began that peanut business. Now he doesn't have to do it any more because now he has made millions. I think he's very . . . he is wealthy man, very wealthy. (break) . . . capture American government. Then all world will follow. As they are known as Communist, we should be known as Hare Kṛṣṇas. We are already known as such, Hare Kṛṣṇas. Keep that name. People at least chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa Party. This is already well advertised all over the world. So keep this name, Hare Kṛṣṇas. "Vote for Hare Kṛṣṇas." Anywhere you live, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (yawns) All right, you can go. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Conversation -- November 13, 1976, Vrndavana *. . . education, devotion, activities. Who can take more care than the father and the mother? So you combine together, make a batch of good character, ideal character in the whole world. There is no ideal character. Everyone is drunkard and meat*-eater or woman-hunter. What is the civilization? Hog civilization. (break) . . . civilization. Work hard, get some money, and spend it for intoxication, illicit sex. This is civilization. Is it not? They have no idea how to make civilized. I was hearing that before I left England there was some trouble in Scotland over the rules about the bars and drinking. And now they want to make a rule, a law, that the children can be allowed into the bars under their parents' . . . they make it a big social . . . They allow the children sit down. They take soda water, and the father, mother drinking. I have seen it. They are learning from the father and mother from the begin . . . My father used to . . . every Sunday they used to go to the pub, and then for Sunday afternoon, as a special treat, they would all get . . . we'd be given a glass of beer. Just see. Father, mother take . . . because they think it is civilization. Elderly boys, the father, mother tell, "What is the wrong, illicit sex? Take woman, take car. Enjoy life." I have seen it. They know, "This is life. Why . . .?" Therefore they say: "Brainwash. This Swāmījī is controlling their minds and brainwash." That is their charge. (pause) Wash, ne. The brain should be operated, surgical, to take out all the rubbish things from the . . . it is called membrane? Cerebrum? Cereb? Cerebral. Cere . . . not . . . it is all gobar . Take out. (pause) (referring to prasādam distribution) Ne , make khicuṛi . Puṣpānna rice? Little, little. Always keep it simple: purīs , one, and one other thing? No, one kind. Either purī or puṣpānna or khicuṛi , like that. You cannot make. Tonight I made sabjī and purī . Yes. That is easiest, purī and sabjī Similarly, khicuṛi and sabjī , puṣpānna and chutney, like that. Temple means feeding them with prasādam . In Bombay the Sunday Feast going on? We don't have so much facility to feed them, because there's only the temple floor, so there's always a big crowd and we have to do two shifts. So sometimes . . . When it will be complete, more facility. Oh, yes, then it will be . . . everything . . . *Take prasādam , see drama, read books, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās . And if you like, you can live with us. So where is the difficulty? Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā (BS 5.37). (pause) That American politician has predicted that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, within ten years, they will capture our government." (laughs) So do it actually. (laughter) Then it will be very nice. It is not . . . simply take the people in your favor—the government is yours. That they are afraid of. The young boys, they are taking Hare Kṛṣṇa movement seriously, so the government can be changed in their favor. After all, it is democracy, you can do it. You become president; you'll become senator. In America it is possible. And if America accepts . . . what about this new president? Or . . . formerly I heard about him that he is religious man. His mother is . . . she was working in India. Oh. So she's very favorable towards India. She was some type of social worker in India. His mother? Oh. Then at least he has got some good thinking. *They said . . . there's a movie star in Bombay, and he is . . . he's a friend of this Carter. So Jagat*-puruṣa is going to approach him. He's a very good friend of . . . because his mother, she was working in India and she knew this family. So they have a lot of friends in India. At least let them understand the philosophy. Balavanta may see and explain the philosophy. Balavanta knows him. Did Balavanta meet him? I think so. Balavanta's . . . there was one man, a black man who was running for mayor at the same time that Balavanta was, for Atlanta. And that black man dropped out of the race and supported Balavanta. He's a black man. Yes. Then later on, that man, he was appointed Lieutenant Governor under Carter. So Carter and this man are close, and through this man, Carter knows about Balavanta and the movement. You have written one letter? Yes. Balavanta is very intelligent boy. He can do that. (pause) Bring that spring water, little. You can type this? On your letterhead? Hmm, yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda, one of the students is just about fifteen, and he's been initiated now for a year, and I'd like to recommend him for second initiation. (break) . . . good hope for preaching in China. I have received letter from Trivikrama Mahārāja. What she is doing, Carter's mother, here? He's in India? Not anymore. Oh. She must have been a missionary. Part of the Peace Corps or something? Oh, that's it. She worked with the Peace Corps. Peace port? Peace Corps. What is that? That's an American organization. It sends out people all over the world to help the . . . Like a social workers' organization. Like when they have earthquakes and hurricanes in countries, the Peace Corps will go there, and they will do all the nursing and doctoring and helping people get homes . . . So unless there is earthquake, they will not work. No, that's not the Peace Corps. They send Peace Corps . . . Tejiyas was in Peace Corps. Tejiyas was in the Peace Corps. He was sent to India. In Telengana he was helping with agriculture. He would go to some village, underdeveloped. He would teach them how to plant nicely, fertilize, different things. He knows about that? Yes, he knows all about agriculture. Why don't we send him to Hyderabad? Yes. He worked there for about . . . Let him go to Hyderabad. He knows all about agriculture. Mm. And he speaks the language, too. Yes. It was Kennedy's idea, the Peace Corps. Kennedy started it. They started it because many young men did not want to go in the Army, but Army was forcible. So they said: "If you go in the Peace Corps, then you don't have to go in the war corps—you don't have to go in Army." So many people took that, "Oh, we'll go in the Peace Corps. We'll go as an alternative." Good idea. It has lost its popularity now. Eh? It is not very popular now. Why? In fact, in India they have ordered to leave, practically. Hmm? They say they had some connection with the CIA. That is politics. Yes, but . . . *He was a politician. That you cannot blame. Politics require all these things. A politician cannot be a saintly person. That is not possible. For politics he has to do so many things. That is necessary. Just like Arjuna wanted to be a nonviolent. Immediately it was condemned by Kṛṣṇa, "What is this nonsense? You are a military man. Nonviolent?" And similarly, politician, they require all this. Businessman must deal in black market. It is inevitable. Otherwise he cannot improve. Because the world is bad, you, if you become honest, then you cannot make pros . . . cannot become prosperous. Sate sārtham samācaret. Brāhmaṇa's dealing must be very straight and honest. They are not meant for politics or business. They are for transcendental knowledge. Kṛṣṇa conscious person should be all*-inclusive. He must be a politician, he must be a Brahmin , he must be a kṣatriya , he must be a śūdra —everything, all-inclusive. Because he is transcendental. In otherwise, he is neither a Brahmin , neither a śūdra , neither a . . . yes. Nāhaṁ vipro na ca nara-patir na yatir vā (Padyāvalī 63). Neither of these. In other side he is everything. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. As Kṛṣṇa is sometimes cowherd boy, politician, sometimes dancing with, artist—He is everything, not one-sided. (pause) So all food is finished? Yes, Prabhupāda. All vegetable also. All vegetable, all purīs . That's nice. ( japa ) (break) . . . Hindi book or English book? Hmm? You sold English book or Hindi book? Hindi magazine. Magazine only. Yes, everyone took magazines. Very good. I think there were some other books also. I didn't check that. Something he must take. He will read, understand our philosophy. (break) . . . Carter is good. Yes. I got a letter from Dharmādhyakṣa up in Surat two months ago. He was invited to the White House after our . . . he had an exhibition at Vancouver, that Habitat. So it was a world conference of solution to life, living. So he was invited. He met some of the officials there. He was invited to Washington, but he had to wait for Carter to become the President, because then it would be fifty percent more favorable because they have a relationship. And there these people . . . they . . . he said there's a great chance they will help us in India. So he is going to go there and speak with the . . . In India. No, Washington, D.C. That's in America. They invited one of our devotees there to discuss this Māyāpur and all this social type of . . . Dharmādhyakṣa. Dharmādhyakṣa. He's writing for that Back to Godhead magazine. He worked with Gurudāsa together. His article, one is there? Yes, "Simple Living, High Thinking." You saw that. So he met him. He met . . . not Carter. He met the government officials who were representing the United States Government at that exhibition, and they were very favorable. They were one of the most favorable, he said, the United States. Yes, our "Plain living, high thinking" is very nice idea. Actually, it's the only practical solution. Mr. Carter is a farmer, peanut farmer. Oh. That's how he gained his money. He's the biggest peanut farmer in America. (laughs) He started out in the military. He was in the Navy. Then afterwards . . . his father had a peanut farm, and then his father became sick, so then he gave up his Navy thing. He came back to take care of the family. Then he began that peanut business. Now he doesn't have to do it any more because now he has made millions. I think he's very . . . he is wealthy man, very wealthy. (break) . . . capture American government. Then all world will follow. As they are known as Communist, we should be known as Hare Kṛṣṇas. We are already known as such, Hare Kṛṣṇas. Keep that name. People at least chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa Party. This is already well advertised all over the world. So keep this name, Hare Kṛṣṇas. "Vote for Hare Kṛṣṇas." Anywhere you live, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (yawns) All right, you can go. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Conversation A -- November 14, 1976, Vrndavana M. Channa Reddy. Hmm? M. Channa Reddy. Why? About getting letters, this letter for the court case in America. Court case? Oh. He had given us nice questioning, and some from our Members, who are members of Parliament and other persons like M. Channa Reddy himself. He said that he would approach the External Affairs Minister and ask him that . . . the External Affairs Minister, he can make some sort of protest, either official or unofficial, about this type of dealings that are going on. So he has not given anything, writing. No, but what he said . . . he said that he is the head of the state of U.P . . . so he said if he gives a protest to the American government directly, that "This is not . . ." There is no question of protest that . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine movement. I had gotten a letter from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa that he also wanted some letter in the form of protest. Protest? Why this nonsense suggestion is done? These are rascal things. You have no experience, and you do something which is . . . I asked the governor to give a letter of . . . Why did you approach the governor without asking me? You cannot make the governor so cheap thing that you will go always and ask something. Unnecessarily spend money and waste time. I met him in Delhi. He was there? Yeah. But how governor can protest? What he suggested in this case . . . *He will suggest hundreds of things, but he cannot protest personally. That is not . . . what is the court case? That we have to place before the court, that "This is genuine cultural or religious movement." We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we are trying to spread. This is genuine, the simple thing. We have not manufactured anything, Transcendental Meditation or like that. That is not our business. We are presenting simply what is stated there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If somebody said that "Bible is not genuine," will it be accepted? Thousands and thousands are claiming to be Christian on the basis of . . . similarly, millions and millions of people in India, they know Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā . How it is not genuine? That we have to prove, that's all. It's not that . . . repeatedly we are speaking that what Kṛṣṇa has said, that is perfect. That's all. This is our business. Who will object to that? You could not present to the governor that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . anyone can say, "Yes, it is based on Bhagavad-gītā . It is genuine." Any Indian can say. You have to take that to present in the court. If from official it is . . . how the official can deny it? It is genuine. Now, about this sewer line, after all . . . (end) Conversation A -- November 14, 1976, Vrndavana M. Channa Reddy. Hmm? M. Channa Reddy. Why? About getting letters, this letter for the court case in America. Court case? Oh. He had given us nice questioning, and some from our Members, who are members of Parliament and other persons like M. Channa Reddy himself. He said that he would approach the External Affairs Minister and ask him that . . . the External Affairs Minister, he can make some sort of protest, either official or unofficial, about this type of dealings that are going on. So he has not given anything, writing. No, but what he said . . . he said that he is the head of the state of U.P . . . so he said if he gives a protest to the American government directly, that "This is not . . ." There is no question of protest that . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine movement. I had gotten a letter from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa that he also wanted some letter in the form of protest. Protest? Why this nonsense suggestion is done? These are rascal things. You have no experience, and you do something which is . . . I asked the governor to give a letter of . . . Why did you approach the governor without asking me? You cannot make the governor so cheap thing that you will go always and ask something. Unnecessarily spend money and waste time. I met him in Delhi. He was there? Yeah. But how governor can protest? What he suggested in this case . . . *He will suggest hundreds of things, but he cannot protest personally. That is not . . . what is the court case? That we have to place before the court, that "This is genuine cultural or religious movement." We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we are trying to spread. This is genuine, the simple thing. We have not manufactured anything, Transcendental Meditation or like that. That is not our business. We are presenting simply what is stated there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If somebody said that "Bible is not genuine," will it be accepted? Thousands and thousands are claiming to be Christian on the basis of . . . similarly, millions and millions of people in India, they know Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā . How it is not genuine? That we have to prove, that's all. It's not that . . . repeatedly we are speaking that what Kṛṣṇa has said, that is perfect. That's all. This is our business. Who will object to that? You could not present to the governor that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . anyone can say, "Yes, it is based on Bhagavad-gītā . It is genuine." Any Indian can say. You have to take that to present in the court. If from official it is . . . how the official can deny it? It is genuine. Now, about this sewer line, after all . . . (end) Conversation -- November 15, 1976, Vrndavana *. . . punishment, Kali*-yuga. But this is proper punishment. Because the public also, they’re not anxious to become God conscious. No. They’re anxious to avoid it. There's a few, but not many. So they must be punished, with such rogues and thieves. That is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* . It is nature's punishment. (end) Conversation -- November 15, 1976, Vrndavana *. . . punishment, Kali*-yuga. But this is proper punishment. Because the public also, they’re not anxious to become God conscious. No. They’re anxious to avoid it. There's a few, but not many. So they must be punished, with such rogues and thieves. That is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* . It is nature's punishment. (end) Conversation -- November 18, 1976, Vrndavana And this paper should be carried to Pradyumna. (break) . . . predicted it? They are not going to do all this protest against Transcendental Meditation. No. That means here they are feeling the weight. You see? These protests, this combination, this endeavor to collapse our . . . that means they are feeling more weight. And what is this movement, Transcendent . . .? They never formed against any case, anything, Transcendental . . . they know that is farce. There are so many other groups: Yogi Bhajan, Transcendental Meditation and . . . what is he? Guru baba . . .? Guru Maharaji. Guru Maharaja. So many. Ramakrishna is not very prominent. Sai Baba. (aside) Little, little, everyone. Who asked for them? Aurobindo. Even Aurobindo. Who will protest against Aurobindo? Aurobindo has got some influence in the Western . . . Not so much. I never heard of him before. Hmm? (laughs) I never heard of Aurobindo. If someone is interested in Eastern philosophy, generally they read books about Aurobindo and stuff like that, because up till now that's been the only literature that's been available in the West. Aurobindo? Yes. People like that. And now it is worthless. Now it's finished. There's one other movement, called the Moonies. Moonies. Moonies. That's been founded by Reverend Sun Myung Moon. That Korean man, that Korean businessman. Oh. But that is also not . . . They're big in the States. They're very big in the States. He wants to take over the world. He publicly says so. He claims to be organizing the world . . . That . . . (break) He says that Jesus never carried out what he intended to do . . . "I am doing." So he's going to come and do it. So that is capturing the sentiment. There is no philosophy. And who cares for Jesus? First of all they must care for Jesus. So he's . . . he has got any books? I don't think so. Maybe some pamphlets. No one's got any literature like yours. At the most, they can produce a few pamphlets. They can't even produce one volume the size of the *Bhāgavatam* , what to speak of eighty. And if they could, no one would read them anyway. No, on the whole there is now attempt to stop this movement. *(break) . . . but in . . . we have made so many court cases. Now, only loss we are feeling now—in some airports they have stopped our book*-selling. So formerly also they were stopped and again revived. Legally we haven't been stopped in any airport, I don't think. Legally we have been stopped? In Los Angeles, in Dallas and Atlanta. Legally? But that's only temporarily, I think. What is the . . .? It's a constant struggle. Struggle must be there. You cannot stop it. In Montreal for about two years . . . Kṛṣṇa since His birth struggled. (laughs) We had harassment from the police in Montreal for two years. Sometimes they even beat up the devotees. They have put them into jail . . . They have beaten even our book sellers in airports. Chicago. And the police mistreat the devotees. But still, the devotees continue, and now in Montreal there's no trouble. They crucified Jesus, what to speak of devotees. Prahlāda Mahārāja was persecuted. Haridāsa Ṭhākura. I think I shall not go to Europe, America, for some time. (laughter) Not unless this gets cleared up. Because it is being discussed about me. They say: "Old man is behind this movement." Even in Australia now they're having the same thing, kidnapping and everything. It's everywhere. That means they're feeling the weight. It is spreading. Yeah. (pause) That's all. (end) Conversation -- November 18, 1976, Vrndavana And this paper should be carried to Pradyumna. (break) . . . predicted it? They are not going to do all this protest against Transcendental Meditation. No. That means here they are feeling the weight. You see? These protests, this combination, this endeavor to collapse our . . . that means they are feeling more weight. And what is this movement, Transcendent . . .? They never formed against any case, anything, Transcendental . . . they know that is farce. There are so many other groups: Yogi Bhajan, Transcendental Meditation and . . . what is he? Guru baba . . .? Guru Maharaji. Guru Maharaja. So many. Ramakrishna is not very prominent. Sai Baba. (aside) Little, little, everyone. Who asked for them? Aurobindo. Even Aurobindo. Who will protest against Aurobindo? Aurobindo has got some influence in the Western . . . Not so much. I never heard of him before. Hmm? (laughs) I never heard of Aurobindo. If someone is interested in Eastern philosophy, generally they read books about Aurobindo and stuff like that, because up till now that's been the only literature that's been available in the West. Aurobindo? Yes. People like that. And now it is worthless. Now it's finished. There's one other movement, called the Moonies. Moonies. Moonies. That's been founded by Reverend Sun Myung Moon. That Korean man, that Korean businessman. Oh. But that is also not . . . They're big in the States. They're very big in the States. He wants to take over the world. He publicly says so. He claims to be organizing the world . . . That . . . (break) He says that Jesus never carried out what he intended to do . . . "I am doing." So he's going to come and do it. So that is capturing the sentiment. There is no philosophy. And who cares for Jesus? First of all they must care for Jesus. So he's . . . he has got any books? I don't think so. Maybe some pamphlets. No one's got any literature like yours. At the most, they can produce a few pamphlets. They can't even produce one volume the size of the *Bhāgavatam* , what to speak of eighty. And if they could, no one would read them anyway. No, on the whole there is now attempt to stop this movement. *(break) . . . but in . . . we have made so many court cases. Now, only loss we are feeling now—in some airports they have stopped our book*-selling. So formerly also they were stopped and again revived. Legally we haven't been stopped in any airport, I don't think. Legally we have been stopped? In Los Angeles, in Dallas and Atlanta. Legally? But that's only temporarily, I think. What is the . . .? It's a constant struggle. Struggle must be there. You cannot stop it. In Montreal for about two years . . . Kṛṣṇa since His birth struggled. (laughs) We had harassment from the police in Montreal for two years. Sometimes they even beat up the devotees. They have put them into jail . . . They have beaten even our book sellers in airports. Chicago. And the police mistreat the devotees. But still, the devotees continue, and now in Montreal there's no trouble. They crucified Jesus, what to speak of devotees. Prahlāda Mahārāja was persecuted. Haridāsa Ṭhākura. I think I shall not go to Europe, America, for some time. (laughter) Not unless this gets cleared up. Because it is being discussed about me. They say: "Old man is behind this movement." Even in Australia now they're having the same thing, kidnapping and everything. It's everywhere. That means they're feeling the weight. It is spreading. Yeah. (pause) That's all. (end) Conversation -- November 20, 1976, Vrndavana . . . (Sanskrit) Who is coming back again, the body this time, that's all. (pause) Kṛṣṇa will also increase? Hmm? The ability to remember Kṛṣṇa, that will also increase? *Yes. Yes, if the brain is clear—it is not filled up with rubbish cow dung—then Kṛṣṇa consciousness easy. Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means there is no more material consciousness. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktam ( CC Madhya 19.170). Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). That is required. And material existence we have got so many ambitions, thoughts, obligations—so many things. Bṛthā . *Sarva*-dharmān : everything give up. That is India's Vedic civilization. They are not concerned with the material advancement. Simple life. That's all. And our present leaders, they are thinking that, "Brainwashed." They are not deeply thinking, "Why our great sages and ācāryas recommended this life, not the skyscraper life? Why? They were not less intelligent." They are not thinking in that way. They are thinking that, "Because we neglected the skyscraper thoughts, we are so backward." At least this rascal Nehru was thinking like that, "So finish this." The Russia is . . . what is called? Opiate? Opiate of the people. *Brainwashed. These things are accepted like that, "It has no value, simply some prejudice and superstition, and they are thinking like that, and they are spoiling their material side of life." This is their idea. "What is this? No meat*-eating?" (knock on the door as devotee enters with prasādam ) That little dāl, dāliya, bās. Nothing else? Huh? Nothing else? *No. If I take anything else it becomes overburdened. Better take little less, just to satisfy that I am not starving. (laughter) Better to starve. That is better. But we are habituated, so better give some consolance, "No, no, you are not starving." Otherwise, starving is better. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . (pause) So they were glad that I am coming? Oh, yes. He was happy. And she was also happy. Who? Gosāi Mā. Oh, yes. No, she was very kind upon me. Yes, they were very happy. *How long is it since you've been to the Rādhā*-Dāmodara? Hmm? When did you last go? Last? Maybe 1972. *About four years. What about that Keśī*-ghāṭa? I didn't have time to find out. Hmm? *Whereabouts, exactly, is that place at Keśī*-ghāṭa? Oh. (chuckles) We can go some day. I think I met somebody from there. Oh, his daughter came there. Yes, yes. Daughter or granddaughter. Something like that, yes. He was talking about. *When I first came in Vṛndāvana I stayed in the Keśī*-ghāṭa. That is very palatial building. My room was as big as this. Yes, as big. Plus one side room, plus one entrance room. I was paying fifteen rupees. And I could see whole Vṛndāvana, Yamunā, from the top my house. It was very nice, very palatial. That's in the big building on the . . . right on the side of the ghāṭa ? Which gate? *That's in the big building right on the side of Keśī*-ghāṭa? No. No? No. There is a big building, Bharat Maharaja, yes, Bharatpur, just by the side of that house. It is in the corner. The door is in the corner. The road is going this way in the corner. It is stone. Face is stone. Good building, but . . . (break) . . . in thought of Kṛṣṇa, outside cleaning by oil and soap. Soap. Bāhyābhyantara-śuciḥ . This is quite comfortable, not very chilly, within this room. Yes, this retains the heat nicely. *People are so misled. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to change this body. There is no preparation. "As sure as death." Death will take place, and you have to accept another body. Who understands this philosophy? Nobody. They are so dull-headed. This body finished, everything finished. Bās . All big, big leaders, scholars, they say. One gentleman, his name is . . . he was Rabindranath Tagore's brother, artist. So in a meeting he was saying: "We are so fool. Thinking of next life, next life, we are spoiling this life." He said like that, long ago when we were children, young men, about eighteen years, twenty years. So I remember distinctly, he is saying in the meeting that, "Simply thinking of next life, we are spoiling this life." He said. That was his explanation. So at that time we were young boys, "Yes, why we should think of, so much of next life?" Of course, I was not very much convinced, but naturally . . . I think his name Aurobindo Tagore, like that. Rabindranath Tagore. He is good artist. Artist means latest fashion: like this, like that, like that. He was considered to be latest artist. And his view is that. I talked with Professor Kotovsky. He said: "Swāmījī, after finishing this body everything is finished." Communist. This is the cent per cent idea. The so-called scientists, they are thinking by chemical evolution the body has come in existence. These things are discussed in Bhagavad-gītā . By accident, if it is a combination of chemicals, that means the bodily existence was not before. It has come in by accident, combination. "So why, Arjuna, you are lamenting for the body which was not in existence, and it will not exist after? So why you are so much anxious for the middle portion?" Good reasoning. The body was not in existence. That is the general . . . and as soon as you finish, there is no more existence. So via media, between the manifestation and nonmanifestation, in the middle there is some manifesta . . . why you are so much absorbed in that part? Therefore the Europeans, Americans, they bring in the charges "brainwash." "A brainwash movement. It has no actual value. Simply an artificial way of pushing the idea in the brain. And they have to give up. These children are spoiled. They have given up meat-eating and illicit sex. Their life is spoiled," and so on, so on. *So their theory is not without background. There is a background philosophy. And for Western countries, this is a completely new idea. Therefore they are charging "Brainwash." They are not to be blamed, because they are, I mean to say, raised in that ideas. Hmm? Is it not? Yes. "So this is simply brainwash movement. It has no factual standing." Even our country, what to speak of Western countries. Where the spiritual civilization has a strong background, they are also not believing. Nobody believes Kṛṣṇa is God, even big, big leaders, what to speak of ordinary men. Especially the so*-called educated men. "Bring money anyhow and enjoy life." Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). And for money they are doing everything: black money, white money, yellow money, this money. (laughs) "Bring money and enjoy. Bās . This is life. Why this nonsense Kṛṣṇa consciousness? No this, no this, no this. Ninety-nine percent 'no' and one percent 'yes.' What is the value of this movement?" Is it not? Our life is ninety-nine per cent "no." No air even. (laughs) (laughter) So what to speak of other thing. It is very difficult. Therefore in the beginning I was hopeless, that "Who will hear this movement? Simply 'no.' " And especially in this country, in Europe. So dull brain. Hmm. (break) (end) Conversation -- November 20, 1976, Vrndavana . . . (Sanskrit) Who is coming back again, the body this time, that's all. (pause) Kṛṣṇa will also increase? Hmm? The ability to remember Kṛṣṇa, that will also increase? *Yes. Yes, if the brain is clear—it is not filled up with rubbish cow dung—then Kṛṣṇa consciousness easy. Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means there is no more material consciousness. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktam ( CC Madhya 19.170). Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). That is required. And material existence we have got so many ambitions, thoughts, obligations—so many things. Bṛthā . *Sarva*-dharmān : everything give up. That is India's Vedic civilization. They are not concerned with the material advancement. Simple life. That's all. And our present leaders, they are thinking that, "Brainwashed." They are not deeply thinking, "Why our great sages and ācāryas recommended this life, not the skyscraper life? Why? They were not less intelligent." They are not thinking in that way. They are thinking that, "Because we neglected the skyscraper thoughts, we are so backward." At least this rascal Nehru was thinking like that, "So finish this." The Russia is . . . what is called? Opiate? Opiate of the people. *Brainwashed. These things are accepted like that, "It has no value, simply some prejudice and superstition, and they are thinking like that, and they are spoiling their material side of life." This is their idea. "What is this? No meat*-eating?" (knock on the door as devotee enters with prasādam ) That little dāl, dāliya, bās. Nothing else? Huh? Nothing else? *No. If I take anything else it becomes overburdened. Better take little less, just to satisfy that I am not starving. (laughter) Better to starve. That is better. But we are habituated, so better give some consolance, "No, no, you are not starving." Otherwise, starving is better. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . (pause) So they were glad that I am coming? Oh, yes. He was happy. And she was also happy. Who? Gosāi Mā. Oh, yes. No, she was very kind upon me. Yes, they were very happy. *How long is it since you've been to the Rādhā*-Dāmodara? Hmm? When did you last go? Last? Maybe 1972. *About four years. What about that Keśī*-ghāṭa? I didn't have time to find out. Hmm? *Whereabouts, exactly, is that place at Keśī*-ghāṭa? Oh. (chuckles) We can go some day. I think I met somebody from there. Oh, his daughter came there. Yes, yes. Daughter or granddaughter. Something like that, yes. He was talking about. *When I first came in Vṛndāvana I stayed in the Keśī*-ghāṭa. That is very palatial building. My room was as big as this. Yes, as big. Plus one side room, plus one entrance room. I was paying fifteen rupees. And I could see whole Vṛndāvana, Yamunā, from the top my house. It was very nice, very palatial. That's in the big building on the . . . right on the side of the ghāṭa ? Which gate? *That's in the big building right on the side of Keśī*-ghāṭa? No. No? No. There is a big building, Bharat Maharaja, yes, Bharatpur, just by the side of that house. It is in the corner. The door is in the corner. The road is going this way in the corner. It is stone. Face is stone. Good building, but . . . (break) . . . in thought of Kṛṣṇa, outside cleaning by oil and soap. Soap. Bāhyābhyantara-śuciḥ . This is quite comfortable, not very chilly, within this room. Yes, this retains the heat nicely. *People are so misled. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to change this body. There is no preparation. "As sure as death." Death will take place, and you have to accept another body. Who understands this philosophy? Nobody. They are so dull-headed. This body finished, everything finished. Bās . All big, big leaders, scholars, they say. One gentleman, his name is . . . he was Rabindranath Tagore's brother, artist. So in a meeting he was saying: "We are so fool. Thinking of next life, next life, we are spoiling this life." He said like that, long ago when we were children, young men, about eighteen years, twenty years. So I remember distinctly, he is saying in the meeting that, "Simply thinking of next life, we are spoiling this life." He said. That was his explanation. So at that time we were young boys, "Yes, why we should think of, so much of next life?" Of course, I was not very much convinced, but naturally . . . I think his name Aurobindo Tagore, like that. Rabindranath Tagore. He is good artist. Artist means latest fashion: like this, like that, like that. He was considered to be latest artist. And his view is that. I talked with Professor Kotovsky. He said: "Swāmījī, after finishing this body everything is finished." Communist. This is the cent per cent idea. The so-called scientists, they are thinking by chemical evolution the body has come in existence. These things are discussed in Bhagavad-gītā . By accident, if it is a combination of chemicals, that means the bodily existence was not before. It has come in by accident, combination. "So why, Arjuna, you are lamenting for the body which was not in existence, and it will not exist after? So why you are so much anxious for the middle portion?" Good reasoning. The body was not in existence. That is the general . . . and as soon as you finish, there is no more existence. So via media, between the manifestation and nonmanifestation, in the middle there is some manifesta . . . why you are so much absorbed in that part? Therefore the Europeans, Americans, they bring in the charges "brainwash." "A brainwash movement. It has no actual value. Simply an artificial way of pushing the idea in the brain. And they have to give up. These children are spoiled. They have given up meat-eating and illicit sex. Their life is spoiled," and so on, so on. *So their theory is not without background. There is a background philosophy. And for Western countries, this is a completely new idea. Therefore they are charging "Brainwash." They are not to be blamed, because they are, I mean to say, raised in that ideas. Hmm? Is it not? Yes. "So this is simply brainwash movement. It has no factual standing." Even our country, what to speak of Western countries. Where the spiritual civilization has a strong background, they are also not believing. Nobody believes Kṛṣṇa is God, even big, big leaders, what to speak of ordinary men. Especially the so*-called educated men. "Bring money anyhow and enjoy life." Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). And for money they are doing everything: black money, white money, yellow money, this money. (laughs) "Bring money and enjoy. Bās . This is life. Why this nonsense Kṛṣṇa consciousness? No this, no this, no this. Ninety-nine percent 'no' and one percent 'yes.' What is the value of this movement?" Is it not? Our life is ninety-nine per cent "no." No air even. (laughs) (laughter) So what to speak of other thing. It is very difficult. Therefore in the beginning I was hopeless, that "Who will hear this movement? Simply 'no.' " And especially in this country, in Europe. So dull brain. Hmm. (break) (end) Conversation -- November 24, 1976, Vrndavana . . . Spanish and Portuguese word, Christo. . . . Kṛṣṇa? Christo is also the Spanish and Portuguese word for Christ. What is the meaning? Christ. Christ. Just see. So write article on this. "Krishnian." Wherefrom this Christo came. The Greek word. And the Greek got from India, Kṛṣṇa . This is the history. Christian means Krishnian, godly. And Christo , so far I know, the Greek meaning is "decorated," "love." That indicates to Kṛṣṇa. If there is some scholar, he can find out that Christian means Krishnian originally. (reads from Mike Robinson interview in BTG ) "How the soul transmigrates? The process is very subtle. The spirit soul is invisible to our material eye. It is atomic in size. After the destruction of the gross body, which is made up of the senses, blood, bone, fat and so forth, the subtle body of mind, intelligence and ego goes on working. So at the time of death this subtle body carries the small spirit soul to another gross body. The process is just like air carrying a fragrance. Nobody can see where this rose fragrance is coming from, but we know that it is being carried by the air. You cannot see how, but it is being done. Similarly, the process of transmigration of the soul is very subtle. According to the conditions of the mind at the time of death, the minute spirit soul enters into the womb of a particular mother through the semina of father. And when the soul develops a particular type of body given by the mother, it may be a human being, it may be cat, a dog or anything." So it is brainwash? Hmm? But if it was heard by them, they would accept it, but because there are so many cheaters and rascals, that it's all been . . . they're so afraid of all of it, because there's been so much cheating and different philosophies and gurus and false gurus and that. Tumahare yahan sab hota hai. (Everything is done at your place.) . . . (indistinct) . . . now . . . Aiye. (Come). So far fix up, you should take paper. Who is in charge of which subject, I want to know. (devotees look for paper) Aap thoda sanksrit sikhiye na. (Why could you not learn a little Sanskrit.) That Prem Yogi can teach you very nice. And you and Prem Yogi can teach these boys Sanskrit. Yes. It is not difficult at all. Anyone who knows Hindi, he knows half Sanskrit. Indian language, any Indian language, he knows half Sanskrit already. Half has to be completed. Because Indian language is directly from Sanskrit. So what are the charges you were working? Write each name and charge. Is there any charge to each man? Yes. So write that. (indistinct background conversations as devotees make notes) (pause) This article, if it is presented, the whole case, it is lost . . . Most of this magazine is . . . somehow or other, in all the articles there's something about how the chanting is actually producing greater intelligence, clearing the mind. Yes. Yes. (making notes on who does what) Books and devotees. This issue is very important. There's so many evidences. (break) Who are present here . . . Who are present here. . . . their charges, including their . . . write the names and the work in which department he's in charge. That I want to know. Would you also like to know the . . . 'cause some of them are not in charge of certain departments, but they work within a department. Oh. He is assistant. Yes. Then assistant name also the different, these departments. One man in charge, and he may have several assistants. That is different thing. (pause) Robinson could not protest any . . . in any of my statement. (laughs) He had to admit. Yeah. I told you he was very interested in the philosophy. He was asking some very good questions. Still he's asking, "Are you saying that we were something else before this life?" I said, "Yes." (laughter) (break) . . . issue will help 99% about this controversy, brainwashing. Okay. I haven't read it completely, but . . . And there are pictures of chanting. Yes, that's a very good . . . this editorial. This is new copy. So is it finished now? (break) (giving indistinct devotee names) Practical. Hmm? Finished. So what is your charge? Your including . . . Eh? What is that? Well, restaurant, shop, kitchen, the kitchen godown. Kitchen godown? Supplies. Oh, supplies. So what is the difficulty? The other day you complained some difficulty. So what is the difficulty? Nothing. Nothing excepting my jaundice. Then? Everything is all right. No, you said there is some difficulty. All of you came there on behalf . . . Yes. So what is that difficulty? You are in charge of this department. That's right? Yes. So what is the difficulty in discharging your duty? Now you cannot say? What is that? All of you said there is difficulty. It doesn't concern directly what we have as charges. So what is that difficulty? What is your difficulty? That I must know. If some of the boys were to get along with the authorities . . . Loan? Along. Oh, along, authori . . . so that I want to discuss with authorities here. Our first authority is Akṣayānanda. So what is the difficulty you get along with? What is the difficulty? You must discuss. Otherwise how it can be resolved? Personally interrogate with me . . . personally consulting me, I have had no difficulty so far. But there have been other . . . Who had difficulty? You came, so many. What is your difficulty? Now explain what you are in charge? *I am the reception in*-charge. He is on the reception. He's the guesthouse receptionist, that's all, at the moment. Guesthouse reception? Yes. So what is your difficulty with the authority? Regarding this guesthouse, everything is okay, but things, little things, these equipments and . . . (indistinct) . . . all these things . . . Help to understand. Yes, I am understanding. He is saying that everything is all right, but he needs equipment sometimes. So if they need equipment the procedure is that it has to be . . . Equipment? What is that equipment? Like plates or . . . These bedding materials, and these mans for managing these . . . sweepers and all. We are running short of mans. Of course, we are trying to get short of man . . . Short of men. Cleaners. Cleaners and these mans . . . You have got cleaners. (indistinct) . . . coming. Eh? Well, we had sufficient, but they are unreliable, paid men, so we're getting new men. But I don't think that's the difficulty with the management. So you solve this difficulty. You answer. He has got difficulty, you answer him. So he has got difficulty. Difficulty is because we lost the chaukīdār . The cleaner had to become a chaukīdār but now you have a new chaukīdār , so your cleaner is back? Yes, today he is working. And other men are coming, is it not? Ah, yes, coming. So is there difficulty now? No, it is coming now. There are no difficulties. So what is the difficulty, I do not find out. You told him, and that is already done. And you also said there is no difficulty, so why the other day you all came and there was difficulty? Well, it was not my . . . directly my difficulty, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hmm? They have been small situations where other Indian devotees, closer to him, came to me with their problems. So all Indians are here. Now say what is the difficulty. Well, some things like changing of our duties, changing of our services. So why you change? Consult. Well, there won't be any change, Prabhupāda. And they were not satisfied with that change, so . . . and they wanted to remain in that particular service. Change is no rectification. If somebody is not working he should be trained up. Changing is another . . . if he is a fool, another fool will come. What will be? You see? Change, of course, sometimes required, but if you constantly change, the man is not trained up. That practice is not good. If somebody is not doing satisfactorily, then he should be trained up that "You should like this." And if you immediately change another, that, that is not actually solution because all our workers, they are not accustomed to certain type of duty. They are devotee, after all. So still, we have to do something, so one man requires little training. But whatever capacity he has got, he is posted. So immediate change, that is not very good management. Let him be reformed, and whatever inability he has got, he should be instructed and he should be . . . and this, all of a sudden change, simply go on changing, nobody . . . "Rolling stone never gathers moss." A "rolling stone" policy is not good. So what is the difficulty? Keep the stone in a place and it will gather moss. And if you simply roll, it will never gather moss. If the man who has committed mistake, he should be reformed. He should be instructed. Sometimes I show your cleaners by myself, "Do like this." Change them, immediate change, that is not good management, and to make him competent in that way, that is management. So this policy should be followed, not that because he has done something not correctly he should be changed immediately. That will not help. Now discuss this point. Actually we can solve it ourselves. I don't know why they came to you in the first place, because our whole business is to relieve you of all problems. Yes but . . . We should not think that if we are Indians we can have a special access to you. So do, do it. What is that? Ta . . . Yes, we can do it outside instead of troubling you. I mean, we can sit down . . . actually, I've already told them since I've been here yesterday that whatever problems they have, we can solve it ourselves. So go and settle up in that lungi. We can settle it ourselves instead of bringing it to Prabhupāda. Jaya Srila Prabhupada. I don't think there's any great difficulty, Prabhupāda. Actually, we've been speaking the last few days, and these problems can be solved. No, it is Kṛṣṇa's service. Everyone is offering voluntary service. So not that anyone is paid, and if he cannot, dismiss or . . . yes. This bureaucracy is not . . . train him. Train him. If he does not know, train him. But things must be done very nicely by cooperation. That is wanted. Everyone should remember that we are serving Kṛṣṇa, and everyone should remember, "The other person is serving Kṛṣṇa. And because he is serving Kṛṣṇa, he is not my servant; he is my master." That should be always in view. Therefore we address, " prabhu ": "You are my master." We never address, "You are my servant." We are trained up to say my brother, that " prabhu ," "such and such prabhu ." Prabhu means master. Nobody think himself that he is master. He should always think that everyone is his master because he's serving the master. This is our philosophy. So in this way . . . now you have got good arrangement and they're all intelligent persons, young persons. All good people are here. So kindly settle up and do nice things. That I want to see. That's all. He is also present. At that time he was not present. So go and . . . Okay. (devotees offer obeisances) You should always remember that you are helping me. Without your help I cannot do anything. So you do not be disturbed. Try to help me. That is my request. Thank you very much. Jaya Srila Prabhupada. Aap toh Hindi jaanti hai, thoda sanskrit sikh lijiye. (You already know Hindi, now learn Sanskrit well.) (end) Conversation -- November 24, 1976, Vrndavana . . . Spanish and Portuguese word, Christo. . . . Kṛṣṇa? Christo is also the Spanish and Portuguese word for Christ. What is the meaning? Christ. Christ. Just see. So write article on this. "Krishnian." Wherefrom this Christo came. The Greek word. And the Greek got from India, Kṛṣṇa . This is the history. Christian means Krishnian, godly. And Christo , so far I know, the Greek meaning is "decorated," "love." That indicates to Kṛṣṇa. If there is some scholar, he can find out that Christian means Krishnian originally. (reads from Mike Robinson interview in BTG ) "How the soul transmigrates? The process is very subtle. The spirit soul is invisible to our material eye. It is atomic in size. After the destruction of the gross body, which is made up of the senses, blood, bone, fat and so forth, the subtle body of mind, intelligence and ego goes on working. So at the time of death this subtle body carries the small spirit soul to another gross body. The process is just like air carrying a fragrance. Nobody can see where this rose fragrance is coming from, but we know that it is being carried by the air. You cannot see how, but it is being done. Similarly, the process of transmigration of the soul is very subtle. According to the conditions of the mind at the time of death, the minute spirit soul enters into the womb of a particular mother through the semina of father. And when the soul develops a particular type of body given by the mother, it may be a human being, it may be cat, a dog or anything." So it is brainwash? Hmm? But if it was heard by them, they would accept it, but because there are so many cheaters and rascals, that it's all been . . . they're so afraid of all of it, because there's been so much cheating and different philosophies and gurus and false gurus and that. Tumahare yahan sab hota hai. (Everything is done at your place.) . . . (indistinct) . . . now . . . Aiye. (Come). So far fix up, you should take paper. Who is in charge of which subject, I want to know. (devotees look for paper) Aap thoda sanksrit sikhiye na. (Why could you not learn a little Sanskrit.) That Prem Yogi can teach you very nice. And you and Prem Yogi can teach these boys Sanskrit. Yes. It is not difficult at all. Anyone who knows Hindi, he knows half Sanskrit. Indian language, any Indian language, he knows half Sanskrit already. Half has to be completed. Because Indian language is directly from Sanskrit. So what are the charges you were working? Write each name and charge. Is there any charge to each man? Yes. So write that. (indistinct background conversations as devotees make notes) (pause) This article, if it is presented, the whole case, it is lost . . . Most of this magazine is . . . somehow or other, in all the articles there's something about how the chanting is actually producing greater intelligence, clearing the mind. Yes. Yes. (making notes on who does what) Books and devotees. This issue is very important. There's so many evidences. (break) Who are present here . . . Who are present here. . . . their charges, including their . . . write the names and the work in which department he's in charge. That I want to know. Would you also like to know the . . . 'cause some of them are not in charge of certain departments, but they work within a department. Oh. He is assistant. Yes. Then assistant name also the different, these departments. One man in charge, and he may have several assistants. That is different thing. (pause) Robinson could not protest any . . . in any of my statement. (laughs) He had to admit. Yeah. I told you he was very interested in the philosophy. He was asking some very good questions. Still he's asking, "Are you saying that we were something else before this life?" I said, "Yes." (laughter) (break) . . . issue will help 99% about this controversy, brainwashing. Okay. I haven't read it completely, but . . . And there are pictures of chanting. Yes, that's a very good . . . this editorial. This is new copy. So is it finished now? (break) (giving indistinct devotee names) Practical. Hmm? Finished. So what is your charge? Your including . . . Eh? What is that? Well, restaurant, shop, kitchen, the kitchen godown. Kitchen godown? Supplies. Oh, supplies. So what is the difficulty? The other day you complained some difficulty. So what is the difficulty? Nothing. Nothing excepting my jaundice. Then? Everything is all right. No, you said there is some difficulty. All of you came there on behalf . . . Yes. So what is that difficulty? You are in charge of this department. That's right? Yes. So what is the difficulty in discharging your duty? Now you cannot say? What is that? All of you said there is difficulty. It doesn't concern directly what we have as charges. So what is that difficulty? What is your difficulty? That I must know. If some of the boys were to get along with the authorities . . . Loan? Along. Oh, along, authori . . . so that I want to discuss with authorities here. Our first authority is Akṣayānanda. So what is the difficulty you get along with? What is the difficulty? You must discuss. Otherwise how it can be resolved? Personally interrogate with me . . . personally consulting me, I have had no difficulty so far. But there have been other . . . Who had difficulty? You came, so many. What is your difficulty? Now explain what you are in charge? *I am the reception in*-charge. He is on the reception. He's the guesthouse receptionist, that's all, at the moment. Guesthouse reception? Yes. So what is your difficulty with the authority? Regarding this guesthouse, everything is okay, but things, little things, these equipments and . . . (indistinct) . . . all these things . . . Help to understand. Yes, I am understanding. He is saying that everything is all right, but he needs equipment sometimes. So if they need equipment the procedure is that it has to be . . . Equipment? What is that equipment? Like plates or . . . These bedding materials, and these mans for managing these . . . sweepers and all. We are running short of mans. Of course, we are trying to get short of man . . . Short of men. Cleaners. Cleaners and these mans . . . You have got cleaners. (indistinct) . . . coming. Eh? Well, we had sufficient, but they are unreliable, paid men, so we're getting new men. But I don't think that's the difficulty with the management. So you solve this difficulty. You answer. He has got difficulty, you answer him. So he has got difficulty. Difficulty is because we lost the chaukīdār . The cleaner had to become a chaukīdār but now you have a new chaukīdār , so your cleaner is back? Yes, today he is working. And other men are coming, is it not? Ah, yes, coming. So is there difficulty now? No, it is coming now. There are no difficulties. So what is the difficulty, I do not find out. You told him, and that is already done. And you also said there is no difficulty, so why the other day you all came and there was difficulty? Well, it was not my . . . directly my difficulty, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hmm? They have been small situations where other Indian devotees, closer to him, came to me with their problems. So all Indians are here. Now say what is the difficulty. Well, some things like changing of our duties, changing of our services. So why you change? Consult. Well, there won't be any change, Prabhupāda. And they were not satisfied with that change, so . . . and they wanted to remain in that particular service. Change is no rectification. If somebody is not working he should be trained up. Changing is another . . . if he is a fool, another fool will come. What will be? You see? Change, of course, sometimes required, but if you constantly change, the man is not trained up. That practice is not good. If somebody is not doing satisfactorily, then he should be trained up that "You should like this." And if you immediately change another, that, that is not actually solution because all our workers, they are not accustomed to certain type of duty. They are devotee, after all. So still, we have to do something, so one man requires little training. But whatever capacity he has got, he is posted. So immediate change, that is not very good management. Let him be reformed, and whatever inability he has got, he should be instructed and he should be . . . and this, all of a sudden change, simply go on changing, nobody . . . "Rolling stone never gathers moss." A "rolling stone" policy is not good. So what is the difficulty? Keep the stone in a place and it will gather moss. And if you simply roll, it will never gather moss. If the man who has committed mistake, he should be reformed. He should be instructed. Sometimes I show your cleaners by myself, "Do like this." Change them, immediate change, that is not good management, and to make him competent in that way, that is management. So this policy should be followed, not that because he has done something not correctly he should be changed immediately. That will not help. Now discuss this point. Actually we can solve it ourselves. I don't know why they came to you in the first place, because our whole business is to relieve you of all problems. Yes but . . . We should not think that if we are Indians we can have a special access to you. So do, do it. What is that? Ta . . . Yes, we can do it outside instead of troubling you. I mean, we can sit down . . . actually, I've already told them since I've been here yesterday that whatever problems they have, we can solve it ourselves. So go and settle up in that lungi. We can settle it ourselves instead of bringing it to Prabhupāda. Jaya Srila Prabhupada. I don't think there's any great difficulty, Prabhupāda. Actually, we've been speaking the last few days, and these problems can be solved. No, it is Kṛṣṇa's service. Everyone is offering voluntary service. So not that anyone is paid, and if he cannot, dismiss or . . . yes. This bureaucracy is not . . . train him. Train him. If he does not know, train him. But things must be done very nicely by cooperation. That is wanted. Everyone should remember that we are serving Kṛṣṇa, and everyone should remember, "The other person is serving Kṛṣṇa. And because he is serving Kṛṣṇa, he is not my servant; he is my master." That should be always in view. Therefore we address, " prabhu ": "You are my master." We never address, "You are my servant." We are trained up to say my brother, that " prabhu ," "such and such prabhu ." Prabhu means master. Nobody think himself that he is master. He should always think that everyone is his master because he's serving the master. This is our philosophy. So in this way . . . now you have got good arrangement and they're all intelligent persons, young persons. All good people are here. So kindly settle up and do nice things. That I want to see. That's all. He is also present. At that time he was not present. So go and . . . Okay. (devotees offer obeisances) You should always remember that you are helping me. Without your help I cannot do anything. So you do not be disturbed. Try to help me. That is my request. Thank you very much. Jaya Srila Prabhupada. Aap toh Hindi jaanti hai, thoda sanskrit sikh lijiye. (You already know Hindi, now learn Sanskrit well.) (end) Conversation -- November 25, 1976, Vrndavana *At least once in a month you must be shaven*-headed. Actually, we usually shave more. Hmm? We usually shave more than once a month. Two weeks. 'Cause after even two weeks it looks a little dirty. We can get very good wigs. *No, no, there is no need. It is simply . . . that is also mental concoction. Nowadays, if you go with coat*-pant, shaven headed, nobody will criticize you. It has become a practi . . . Russians, they used . . . that Krushchev I have seen. Bald head. Yes, bald head. And so many. They don't have a śikhā , that's all. Oh? It is practice only. No, it's nice. We shouldn't be afraid to do that. Then it will become more and more accepted. That's so timely. Once we start diverting, like on these records . . . I was thinking after you told me not to do it. We started, now there's so many. Everyone's into records. Everyone wants to diversify into so many other areas. There's no end to it. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you were in Los Angeles you heard that new record by Kṛṣṇa*-kānti. *This pop music? This tape that you just got of that Western*-style music. Apparently in a new BBT newsletter which just came yesterday afternoon there's a statement by Rāmeśvara that you were asked whether this record should be played in the temples, and you said, "Why not in the temples?" Hari-śauri thought that you said "Not in the temples"; Rāmeśvara said . . . *No, no. Not in the temple. I . . . I want . . . if the wordings are all right, so there is no . . . if there is no mistake in the set*-up of the wording, the change of musical tune, that is not harmful. This one tape that Alex has made, he gave me a copy in Bombay to listen. I just played it . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa, this vibration, you can make in different tune. We are already doing that. But we're talking about these songs that they are writing. Philosophy songs. Like this, er . . . Therefore we have to see the words. Like the "Caterpillar had a change of heart." If the words are all right, then they can be played? Because no one can hear the words. It's the pop music that people hear. Actually the words are just like modern pop songs. You can't tell really what it means. I suggested to those people . . . I said: "Why don't you put to music to Prabhupāda's books? Take the words straight from your . . ." No, Prabhupāda's approved this method for attracting karmīs . Yes, not for devotees. But the thing is, once you become a devotee, we don't need . . . Yes. That kind of music also reminds us of past bad activities, sinful activities. The question is whether should it be played in the temple or not? Temple may not be played. What is use of playing in the temple? I know from practical experience, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that . . . I just played this Alex's record. It's all current pop music with English philosophy wording. (indistinct comments between devotees) And all the brahmacārīs were so agitated, they came to my room to listen and they were, you know, really making fun of it like it was a pop . . . Because that style of music, it reminds us of the nightclubs or whatever it might be. Therefore I said it is better not to make these records. Just your records and paramparā records should be played, I think. There are so many tapes of your records. Yeah, well this style that they are doing now, they explain that they wanted that because then that way, they'll be able get them played on the radio. Otherwise they won't play bhajanas or anything on the radio. But there's a distinction between that kind of music and pure Kṛṣṇa consciousness music. Even though the words indicate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, most of the songs are written in such a way that it's like it's indirect. It's not directly Kṛṣṇa. It's indirect. But you can't hear the words. Yes, indirect. They give this thing, "The caterpillar changed his mind," like that. It's like it provokes some speculation. No, indirect for gross outsiders, not for us. Therefore they should not be played in the temple. Gross outsider only. So, Prabhupāda, the New York temple has just produced a ballet on *Rāmāyaṇa* , and one boy, Vijayadeva, just came back and he brought a slideshow on that ballet. Ballet? They did a ballet, the New York theater, Sudāmā Swami and his group. But that ballet is accompanied by a classical Western record in background. It's a twenty med . . . they have just played the whole record as background music. And I know, we showed it in Bombay, and none of the devotees liked it. They actually told me to stop that show because they said it's all māyā . Everyone saw it, Girirāja and . . . So they should be restricted. I mean, they're playing . . . serious devotees don't like. Like Girirāja walked out of the show, and he told me to stop it. So why it was played, this? They just brought it from New York, so we didn't know what it contained. But they are doing this in other centers. (end) Conversation -- November 25, 1976, Vrndavana *At least once in a month you must be shaven*-headed. Actually, we usually shave more. Hmm? We usually shave more than once a month. Two weeks. 'Cause after even two weeks it looks a little dirty. We can get very good wigs. *No, no, there is no need. It is simply . . . that is also mental concoction. Nowadays, if you go with coat*-pant, shaven headed, nobody will criticize you. It has become a practi . . . Russians, they used . . . that Krushchev I have seen. Bald head. Yes, bald head. And so many. They don't have a śikhā , that's all. Oh? It is practice only. No, it's nice. We shouldn't be afraid to do that. Then it will become more and more accepted. That's so timely. Once we start diverting, like on these records . . . I was thinking after you told me not to do it. We started, now there's so many. Everyone's into records. Everyone wants to diversify into so many other areas. There's no end to it. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you were in Los Angeles you heard that new record by Kṛṣṇa*-kānti. *This pop music? This tape that you just got of that Western*-style music. Apparently in a new BBT newsletter which just came yesterday afternoon there's a statement by Rāmeśvara that you were asked whether this record should be played in the temples, and you said, "Why not in the temples?" Hari-śauri thought that you said "Not in the temples"; Rāmeśvara said . . . *No, no. Not in the temple. I . . . I want . . . if the wordings are all right, so there is no . . . if there is no mistake in the set*-up of the wording, the change of musical tune, that is not harmful. This one tape that Alex has made, he gave me a copy in Bombay to listen. I just played it . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa, this vibration, you can make in different tune. We are already doing that. But we're talking about these songs that they are writing. Philosophy songs. Like this, er . . . Therefore we have to see the words. Like the "Caterpillar had a change of heart." If the words are all right, then they can be played? Because no one can hear the words. It's the pop music that people hear. Actually the words are just like modern pop songs. You can't tell really what it means. I suggested to those people . . . I said: "Why don't you put to music to Prabhupāda's books? Take the words straight from your . . ." No, Prabhupāda's approved this method for attracting karmīs . Yes, not for devotees. But the thing is, once you become a devotee, we don't need . . . Yes. That kind of music also reminds us of past bad activities, sinful activities. The question is whether should it be played in the temple or not? Temple may not be played. What is use of playing in the temple? I know from practical experience, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that . . . I just played this Alex's record. It's all current pop music with English philosophy wording. (indistinct comments between devotees) And all the brahmacārīs were so agitated, they came to my room to listen and they were, you know, really making fun of it like it was a pop . . . Because that style of music, it reminds us of the nightclubs or whatever it might be. Therefore I said it is better not to make these records. Just your records and paramparā records should be played, I think. There are so many tapes of your records. Yeah, well this style that they are doing now, they explain that they wanted that because then that way, they'll be able get them played on the radio. Otherwise they won't play bhajanas or anything on the radio. But there's a distinction between that kind of music and pure Kṛṣṇa consciousness music. Even though the words indicate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, most of the songs are written in such a way that it's like it's indirect. It's not directly Kṛṣṇa. It's indirect. But you can't hear the words. Yes, indirect. They give this thing, "The caterpillar changed his mind," like that. It's like it provokes some speculation. No, indirect for gross outsiders, not for us. Therefore they should not be played in the temple. Gross outsider only. So, Prabhupāda, the New York temple has just produced a ballet on *Rāmāyaṇa* , and one boy, Vijayadeva, just came back and he brought a slideshow on that ballet. Ballet? They did a ballet, the New York theater, Sudāmā Swami and his group. But that ballet is accompanied by a classical Western record in background. It's a twenty med . . . they have just played the whole record as background music. And I know, we showed it in Bombay, and none of the devotees liked it. They actually told me to stop that show because they said it's all māyā . Everyone saw it, Girirāja and . . . So they should be restricted. I mean, they're playing . . . serious devotees don't like. Like Girirāja walked out of the show, and he told me to stop it. So why it was played, this? They just brought it from New York, so we didn't know what it contained. But they are doing this in other centers. (end) Conversation -- December 3, 1976, Hyderabad . . . be proper rainfall. And if there is proper rainfall, then you get sufficient food grains; *not only food grains, other things also. Sarva*-dughā mahī, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī ( SB 1.10.4). From the earth you can get all the necessities of life. Actually you are getting food grains, minerals, trees, fruits, flowers, everything from the earth. Sarva-dughā, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī . This mahī , when it is soaked with proper rains, it becomes fertile. Therefore we have to depend on the rainfall. There is one verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). Parjanya means rainfall. Rainfall means it is supplying all the necessities of life. And this rainfall will be easy when there is yajña . And nobody is performing yajña , therefore nowadays rainfall is scarcity. In Europe recently I have seen, there is no rainfall, whole Europe. It is on the verge of drying everything. So this punishment will come in this Kali-yuga. There will be no rainfall, and there will be not sufficient food supply, and the government will simply levy taxes on different pleas, and people will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their hearth and home and flee away to the forest. It is stated. So therefore you must perform yajña . And that is very easy in this age. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). You cannot perform the former yajñasa by sacrifice tons of ghee and grains because you have no sufficient food grains even. But still, if you chant this saṅkīrtana , that is yajña . Therefore you must take to saṅkīrtana-yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ . It is very easy. (break) . . . the duty of human being, prāṇaiḥ , with life— arthaiḥ , with money; dhiyā , with intelligence; *and vācā , by words. If one sacrifices his life for Kṛṣṇa's cause, then it is first*-class. If he cannot sacrifice his life for Kṛṣṇa he can contribute his hard-earned money for Kṛṣṇa. If he cannot do so—if he has no money—he can give some intelligence. If he is not intelligent, then he can give some words. Just like we are doing preaching. We are preaching, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). So without any jugglery of words we present to the people that, "Here is Bhagavān," kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . So giving some words, sacrificing some words. Not that every one of us is very highly educated or very rich. Still, if we carry the words of Kṛṣṇa . . . as Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7), so we have to carry these words that, "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa." Where is the difficulty? It is authorized. Kṛṣṇa says, and we simply carry the words. So where is difficulty? So simply by carrying these words that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He wants that you surrender unto Him." So any child can carry these words. Any foolish man can carry these words. And if you do that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, then you become guru , simply by carrying these words. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Even in your village, in your home, you can say to your wife, to your children. They will accept you that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Then you become guru at home. Where is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? But people will not do that. This truth they will not say. What is the reason? Say what is the reason why they do not carry this message, simply to say everyone, whomever you meet. You are meeting daily with your wife, to your children, your friends. If you simply do this missionary work and say that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," then you become a great devotee. You become a guru . Why people do not do so? It is not very difficult task. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said that, "By My order you become a guru ." Indians especially are advised to become guru because Indians, however fallen they may be, they still have respect for Kṛṣṇa. Every home, they perform Kṛṣṇa's Janmāṣṭamī. *So therefore Indians are fortunate. They recognize Kṛṣṇa. Now, to become little more advanced, let them act as Kṛṣṇa's servant. Kṛṣṇa came to speak this truth that, "I am the Supreme." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). He appeared to speak this philosophy. And if you do the same work that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," then you are serving the mission of Kṛṣṇa, great service to Kṛṣṇa. The words for which He appeared on this earth, if you simply carry these words door to door, village to village, man to man, then you become a guru , a real guru . Not to pose yourself a guru without any knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. That is cheating. And to accept and understand Kṛṣṇa the Supreme thoroughly and preach these words that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," is the supreme success of life. What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Why don't you do that? I have to bring all these young men from Europe and America to speak to you this truth. Why our young men is not coming to speak this truth? Hmm? What is the difficulty? That means willfully they are denying the success of life. Willfully. Then what can be done? If somebody willfully commits suicide, who can save him? This is our position at the present moment. The Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, : jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu: "I have drunk poison knowingly." So if somebody knowingly drinks poison, then who can save him? So we are doing that. Without preaching the gospel of Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are drinking poison willfully. This is our position. *Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura regrets, "My Lord, I have lost or I have wasted my valuable life as human being by not accepting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu, manuṣya*-janama pāiyā: "I got this opportunity of human life, but I could not worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Therefore voluntarily, willingly, I have drunk poison." Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana, rati nā janmilo kene tāya: "This transcendental Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , it is not ordinary vibration. This vibration is coming from the spiritual world, but I have no attraction." Hare Kṛṣṇa. I talked to radio. Eh? Oh, you have taken so much trouble. Prasādam , some give it to . . . jaya . A very big block of farms. What is the name of that . . .? Eh? Bechel. *Bechel. So we want so many men to live there nicely, to eat sumptuously, and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have seen while coming from Vṛndāvana to Delhi, hundreds and thousands of young men, they are going to the factories on cycle, coming from distant place, at least twenty miles, twenty*-five miles, and it takes two hours to reach the factory, or more than that. And there he works hard eight hours and then again goes back, two hours, three hours, on cycle. I do not know what kind of rest he takes. This is life. And if we request these young men that, "You come here. You live here comfortably. You eat here sumptuously and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they will not. Just see how unfortunate they are. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). This is Kali-yuga. All bad men, unfortunate and disturbed. This is the position. They will work so hard, they'll catch daily passenger trains, Calcutta, Bombay, I have seen. They are actually hanging, and some of them are falling down, lost life, and coming from hundred miles away. But still, if you ask him that, "You come here. Live with us. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even with your family you can come . . ." We are doing that at Māyāpur. He will not. How strong sense gratification propensity is. This is position of Kali-yuga. They are making propaganda, roṭi kāpra makān (food, clothing, shelter). So we are giving, "Come on, roṭi, makān, kāpra; you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." "No. I want wine. I want meat. I want rundi." This is going on. Simply they say: " Roṭi, kāpra, makān ." But no, they want wine, woman and sense pleasure, that's all. Roṭi, kāpra, makān is not difficult. You can get. But they want something more. You see how many advertisements for selling wine in your Hyderabad. Is that roṭi, kāpra, makān? Even the poorest of men. Just like when we were before, when this temple wasn't here and we were chopping away at the rocks in the foundation, we were paying twenty rupees a day for those men. And then they were . . . we were told that ten rupees every day would go for wine for those same men. Ten rupees out of the twenty they would immediately spend to drink. Even poor people. So many of them. And because we were trying to stop this thing in Europe or America there is agitation, that "These people are propagating brainwash. How is that, a man who will not eat, drink? This is brainwash." Hmm. He will paying ten rupees out of twenty rupees. Eh? *Yes, we were told like that, that they would take their twenty rupees' pay and then they would go and spend ten rupees on alcohol, drinking, toddy. (break) I was in . . . last time at the festival in Māyāpur I was riding from Māyāpur to Calcutta. And so one man was saying that "Oh, fish, 80 paisa a kg." "How much are potatoes?" I asked. So even their hard*-earned money, so much more they spend just to eat meat, to enjoy their senses. It is not even . . . it doesn't make sense in any way. *And that also, they cannot live on meat. They must have vegetable also. Without vegetable, simple meat*-eating will not help them. (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Just like a man, when he is haunted by a ghost, he speaks nonsense, he does nonsense. Similarly, when one is absorbed, overwhelmed by māyā , he speaks like that, he talks like that, he acts like that. (break) . . . scientists manufacture? They are very . . . (indistinct) . . . they are very proud of becoming scientists. Such nice flower, can anyone manufacture? And still, the rascal, they say there is no God. Hmm? What do you think? How do they say there is no God, these rascals? What is the reason? Actually, I think they are all misers. Hmm? They are also misers. They want to enjoy. *No, misers, I say rascals, fools and rascals. That's all. That is their real position, mūḍha. Mūḍha . This very word is used in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mūḍha. Mūḍha means rascal, ass. Asses. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he is mūḍha , ass. He is not human being. If you are intelligent enough, by seeing this flower you must admit there is God. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Find out this verse. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam: " Mūḍha , rascals, they cannot understand that I am behind everything." (to boy) Come here. Who has manufactured this flower? Boy: God. Very good. (laughter) Thank you. He is intelligent. And the rascal will say, "There is no God." Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam . Aiyye idhar aiyye. Please come this way. That's all right. What is that verse? I am very pleased that he has immediately answered the right thing. This is intelligence. Is this the one? Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya (BG 7.25)? No, it is . . . which chapter it is? Seventh. Yes. Read the verse whole. *Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti . . . (BG 7.25). Mām ebhyaḥ . Yes, read that. "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My . . ." Now, here is intelligence. This boy has got intelligence; *therefore he can see, behind this flower there is God. He immediately answered. That is intelligence. He is not seeing God, but he's seeing God. God is not present face to face, but it doesn't matter. Just like the prime minister of our country, she may not be present here, but that does not mean that she is not there. She is there. So these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" How can you see Him? By intelligence. Just like this fan is running. The powerhouse is not here, but intelligent man will understand that there is electric powerhouse from where the electricity energy is supplied, and therefore the fan is running. By the running of the fan, one can understand that there is a big powerhouse and there is an electric engineer there who is conducting the business. That is sufficient, to see the running of the fan. That is intelligence. And if somebody says: "No, no, the fan is running automatically," that is not possible. You are experiencing every moment—as soon as the electric energy is stopped, the fan is stopped. The room is dark. So there is powerhouse behind this electric energy, and the powerhouse is being managed by one engineer. This is natural conclusion. And Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram: "Under My supervision the material nature is working." Find out this verse. "This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again." Purport? "It is clearly stated here that the Supreme Lord, although aloof from all the activities of the material world, remains the supreme director. The Supreme Lord is the supreme will and the background of this material manifestation." The modern scientists, their first business is to deny that Supreme. That is modern. It is a curse for the scientist if they talk of God. Amongst the scientists this is an etiquette, not to talk of God. Everything science. Means everything nonsense, passing on as scientist. Do you believe this? Pardon me? The scientists' position denying God, do you think? It's always changing now. They continue this . . . They feel great anxiety also to talk about God. Once, about three years ago, I had met one big scientist from University of Chicago. Just a chance there was one . . . my father had invited me back home for something; the scientist was there. We got in a big discussion with him and his daughter. They were just saying: "We don't see God. We have no . . . there is no evidence of God." Even logically we could show them. They still didn't want to accept. It was so obvious to them. Ultimately they couldn't say anything. What is their logic to deny God? *It's not logic. They don't have any logic. And ultimately, if we present our conclusions of Bhagavad*-gītā to them, they are silenced. They can't say anything. But they still refu . . . I mean, they don't accept it, but they can't deny it. That is dog's obstinacy. The dog, however you ask the dog to stop barking, it will go on barking. Dog's obstinacy. Hmm. (someone brings something) What is that? I have taken. *"But in the management . . . but the management is being conducted by material nature. Kṛṣṇa also states in Bhagavad*-gītā that of all the living entities in different forms and species, 'I am the father.' The father gives seeds to the womb of the mother for the child, and similarly the Supreme Lord by His mere glance injects all the living entities into the womb of material nature, and they come out in their different forms and species, according to their last desires and activities. All these living entities, although born under the glance of the Supreme Lord, still take their different bodies according to their past deeds and desires. So the Lord is not directly attached to this material creation. He simply glances over material nature; material nature is thus activated, and everything is created immediately. Because He glances over material nature, there is undoubtedly activity on the part of the Supreme Lord, but He has nothing to do with the manifestation of the material world directly. This example is given in the smṛti: when there is a fragrant flower before someone, the fragrance is touched by the smelling power of the person, yet the smelling and the flower are detached from one another. There is a similar connection between the material world and the Supreme Personality of Godhead—actually He has nothing to do with the material world, but He creates by His glance and ordains. In summary, material nature, without the superintendence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, cannot do anything. Yet the Supreme Personality is detached from all material activities." (break) . . . ārati? Seven. God is one. Others, they are . . . just like president is one; others are government servant. Similarly, God is one. There cannot be other God. Then he is not God. But Kṛṣṇa says in *Gītā*, rudrāṇāṁ śaṅkaro 'smi. Eh? Yes. Rudrāṇāṁ śaṅkaro 'smi . That means just like Śaṅkara has got some godly power. Suppose if someone worships . . . they are worshiper of Śiva. But that is not God worship. That is Śiva worship. Why do you bring God worship? God . . . (indistinct) . . . these are going directly to the Śiva. No. No, not directly. *You can go to Lord Śiva. Yānti deva*-vratā devān (BG 9.25). *Mad*-bhakta yājino . . . *Yes. Mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām . There is distinction. You purchase ticket for Delhi, you can go to Delhi. How you can go to Bombay? But among the people there is a misconception. Then people are rascals. Therefore the mūḍhas they are. What value they have got? They have no value. . . . (indistinct Sanskrit) That's all right. You can have respect for everyone. That is good. But it does not mean that by purchasing ticket for Delhi you go to Bombay. And it does not mean that because you do not go to Bombay you have no respect for Delhi. That is not. But if you want to go to Delhi, you have purchased a ticket for Delhi. If you want to go to Bombay you must purchase a ticket for Bombay. Why do you speak nonsensically that, "Whatever ticket I purchase, I go to Bombay"? (laughter) This is nonsense. They'll take to this nonsense theory. That is Vivekananda's theory. "Whatever you do, it is all right." Yato mata tato patha . And that is not fact. These are all paths lead to the Supreme. *How? Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva*-vratā devān (BG 9.25). How, you nonsense, straightly say that everyone goes to God? This is nonsense. You can go to Śiva, you can go to Indra, Chandra . . . there are so many planets, and you'll go there. And that is reasonable. And how do you say that "Whatever ticket I purchase, I go to this, Delhi?" They say that all . . . they're all the same. *"They say." Therefore they are nonsense, mūḍha , rascals. They do not know what is God, what is demigod, what is Lord Śiva, what is Lord Viṣṇu or Brahmā. They do not know. If a woman says: "Oh, everyone is my husband," then she is a prostitute. That's all. A chaste woman will say: "No, there is one, my husband. That's all." That is chaste woman. And if she is liberal, if she says: "No, no, everyone is my husband," that means she is prostitute. She does not know what is value of husband. In Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ (BG 7.20): "Those who have adhered to other demigods, they have lost their intelligence," hṛta-jñānāḥ, "rascals." They'll go. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23). Because they are rascals, they prefer like that. The public opinion will be taken; *Kṛṣṇa's opinion will be . . . public is rascals. They can say all nonsense. That is not to be taken. You have to take—that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement—what Kṛṣṇa says. What do you think? Kṛṣṇa says, kāmais tais tair hṛta*-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ . *Śrīla Prabhupāda? But one man in Bangalore was talking. He was saying that everything there goes to Govinda, even . . . (indistinct) . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (indistinct) . . . because so many people following, they are also following. Yes. So public opinion dictates that "This property is ours." Will he give by votes? Why he'll protest on that point? His point is that because everyone is telling Kṛṣṇa is Supreme, therefore you are also supreme, but what does it proof that Kṛṣṇa is Supreme? Everyone is calling as . . . So we have to meet such rascals and we have to preach. The world is full of rascals, mūḍha . What can be done? But we cannot change our preaching because the rascals are many. That is not . . . we cannot make that . . . There is no medicine for mūḍhas . *Yes. There is medicine: there is beating with shoes. That is medicine. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ, argumentum baculum. You cannot mildly speak to the animals, "My dear cow, my dear dog, please do not bark. Do not go this way." No, you require lāṭhi , stick, and they will behave. Can you stop dog's barking by simply request? But you take the stick and beat it, and he will stop. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ . So there is no king. There is no kṣatriya . Therefore these rascals are talking all nonsense. There is no śāsana . This is king's duty, to see that they are acting according to śāstra . But there is no such king. So everyone is acting whimsically, whatever he likes, and the so*-called svāmīs are preaching, "No, no, whatever you like, that's all right. You can eat whatever you like. You can do whatever you like. You think yourself that you are God, that's all right." This is going on. By thinking himself that he's God, he becomes God. This is going on, so many meditations: "I am moving the sun, I am moving the moon, I am moving . . . mo-mo-mo-mo." (laughter) And rascals are following them. They do not know the process of God. *I know. There is no question of individual. I know these rascals. God is so easy thing that simply by I am thinking that "I am moving the sun, I am moving the . . . mo*-mo-mo-mo," he'll . . . because the whole world is mūḍha , we cannot say that, "Yes, I am also with you. I am also one of the mūḍha ." We cannot say. The votes may be against us, but we cannot agree to that. We simply speak for Kṛṣṇa's sake. That is Kṛṣṇa. We cannot make any compromise. What do they say about this version in the Bhagavad-gītā , kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ (BG 7.20)? What do they say? What is their opinion? But don't say: "Somebody said . . ." Everyone is fool, rascal. What is the value of their words? Or this one mission says, "You worship . . . your is the devatā ." . . . (indistinct) Yes, I know these rascals. Therefore the country's position is the godless India. They lost their culture. They had big propaganda that Sai Baba is God also. He was saying in the . . . these professors challenged him, so he said, "How can an ant try and understand an ocean?" He made that statement, that the Professor at Bangalore University, Vice Chancellor said that, you know, so many . . . (break) Does that mean we have to accept him? That does not mean we have to accept. (break) . . . one is against this movement because we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. (break) . . . when I was talking to him, he said only . . . (indistinct) . . . we don't call it anything, but we want to. But all the movements . . . (indistinct) . . . everything. *That means prostitute. "Everyone is my husband." Prostitution. That's all. (break) . . . does not know what is duty. Duty is sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). This is duty. Kṛṣṇa never said that, "Everything is all right." He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: "Simply surrender unto Me." That is duty. They do not know what is duty. And he's manufacturing his duty. That is not duty. Duty is that which is ordered by the superior authorities, "You do this." So if he does that, that is discharge of duty. And if he manufactures his duty, that is not duty. That is concoction. So they are manufacturing duty. That is not duty. If the child manufactures a duty that "I shall play all day. This is my duty," will the parents accept it? Under . . . (break) *No. But if he knows? But he does not know. That is the difficulty. That I was explaining, mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍho nābhijānāti . He does not know what is duty because he's a mūḍha. If you say: "If he knows," but "If he knows" means it is difficult to know what is duty. The mūḍhas , they cannot know what is duty. Therefore Kṛṣṇa personally says: "This is duty: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). This is duty." Also the paramahaṁsas never speak, they say. *Paramahaṁsa may speak all nonsense, but Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all the ācāryas —Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Nimbārka, Caitanya. They are important men. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So we have to give up the instruction of ācārya and accept some rascal? That we cannot do. Ācāryopāsanam . In Bhagavad*-gītā it is recommended that you should worship the ācārya , not these rascals who talks all nonsense. Then we'll make progress. Ācāryopāsanam . Is it not? Ācāryopāsanam is there. And still in India the ācārya's paramparā system existing, sampradāya . Rāmānuja-sampradāya, Madhvācārya-sampradāya, Nimbārka, going on. Jaiyye sab arati dekhiye. (Please go and watch the arati .) (end) Conversation -- December 3, 1976, Hyderabad . . . be proper rainfall. And if there is proper rainfall, then you get sufficient food grains; *not only food grains, other things also. Sarva*-dughā mahī, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī ( SB 1.10.4). From the earth you can get all the necessities of life. Actually you are getting food grains, minerals, trees, fruits, flowers, everything from the earth. Sarva-dughā, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī . This mahī , when it is soaked with proper rains, it becomes fertile. Therefore we have to depend on the rainfall. There is one verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). Parjanya means rainfall. Rainfall means it is supplying all the necessities of life. And this rainfall will be easy when there is yajña . And nobody is performing yajña , therefore nowadays rainfall is scarcity. In Europe recently I have seen, there is no rainfall, whole Europe. It is on the verge of drying everything. So this punishment will come in this Kali-yuga. There will be no rainfall, and there will be not sufficient food supply, and the government will simply levy taxes on different pleas, and people will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their hearth and home and flee away to the forest. It is stated. So therefore you must perform yajña . And that is very easy in this age. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). You cannot perform the former yajñasa by sacrifice tons of ghee and grains because you have no sufficient food grains even. But still, if you chant this saṅkīrtana , that is yajña . Therefore you must take to saṅkīrtana-yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ . It is very easy. (break) . . . the duty of human being, prāṇaiḥ , with life— arthaiḥ , with money; dhiyā , with intelligence; *and vācā , by words. If one sacrifices his life for Kṛṣṇa's cause, then it is first*-class. If he cannot sacrifice his life for Kṛṣṇa he can contribute his hard-earned money for Kṛṣṇa. If he cannot do so—if he has no money—he can give some intelligence. If he is not intelligent, then he can give some words. Just like we are doing preaching. We are preaching, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). So without any jugglery of words we present to the people that, "Here is Bhagavān," kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . So giving some words, sacrificing some words. Not that every one of us is very highly educated or very rich. Still, if we carry the words of Kṛṣṇa . . . as Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7), so we have to carry these words that, "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa." Where is the difficulty? It is authorized. Kṛṣṇa says, and we simply carry the words. So where is difficulty? So simply by carrying these words that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He wants that you surrender unto Him." So any child can carry these words. Any foolish man can carry these words. And if you do that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, then you become guru , simply by carrying these words. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Even in your village, in your home, you can say to your wife, to your children. They will accept you that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Then you become guru at home. Where is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? But people will not do that. This truth they will not say. What is the reason? Say what is the reason why they do not carry this message, simply to say everyone, whomever you meet. You are meeting daily with your wife, to your children, your friends. If you simply do this missionary work and say that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," then you become a great devotee. You become a guru . Why people do not do so? It is not very difficult task. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said that, "By My order you become a guru ." Indians especially are advised to become guru because Indians, however fallen they may be, they still have respect for Kṛṣṇa. Every home, they perform Kṛṣṇa's Janmāṣṭamī. *So therefore Indians are fortunate. They recognize Kṛṣṇa. Now, to become little more advanced, let them act as Kṛṣṇa's servant. Kṛṣṇa came to speak this truth that, "I am the Supreme." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). He appeared to speak this philosophy. And if you do the same work that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," then you are serving the mission of Kṛṣṇa, great service to Kṛṣṇa. The words for which He appeared on this earth, if you simply carry these words door to door, village to village, man to man, then you become a guru , a real guru . Not to pose yourself a guru without any knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. That is cheating. And to accept and understand Kṛṣṇa the Supreme thoroughly and preach these words that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," is the supreme success of life. What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Why don't you do that? I have to bring all these young men from Europe and America to speak to you this truth. Why our young men is not coming to speak this truth? Hmm? What is the difficulty? That means willfully they are denying the success of life. Willfully. Then what can be done? If somebody willfully commits suicide, who can save him? This is our position at the present moment. The Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, : jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu: "I have drunk poison knowingly." So if somebody knowingly drinks poison, then who can save him? So we are doing that. Without preaching the gospel of Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are drinking poison willfully. This is our position. *Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura regrets, "My Lord, I have lost or I have wasted my valuable life as human being by not accepting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu, manuṣya*-janama pāiyā: "I got this opportunity of human life, but I could not worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Therefore voluntarily, willingly, I have drunk poison." Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana, rati nā janmilo kene tāya: "This transcendental Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , it is not ordinary vibration. This vibration is coming from the spiritual world, but I have no attraction." Hare Kṛṣṇa. I talked to radio. Eh? Oh, you have taken so much trouble. Prasādam , some give it to . . . jaya . A very big block of farms. What is the name of that . . .? Eh? Bechel. *Bechel. So we want so many men to live there nicely, to eat sumptuously, and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have seen while coming from Vṛndāvana to Delhi, hundreds and thousands of young men, they are going to the factories on cycle, coming from distant place, at least twenty miles, twenty*-five miles, and it takes two hours to reach the factory, or more than that. And there he works hard eight hours and then again goes back, two hours, three hours, on cycle. I do not know what kind of rest he takes. This is life. And if we request these young men that, "You come here. You live here comfortably. You eat here sumptuously and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they will not. Just see how unfortunate they are. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). This is Kali-yuga. All bad men, unfortunate and disturbed. This is the position. They will work so hard, they'll catch daily passenger trains, Calcutta, Bombay, I have seen. They are actually hanging, and some of them are falling down, lost life, and coming from hundred miles away. But still, if you ask him that, "You come here. Live with us. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even with your family you can come . . ." We are doing that at Māyāpur. He will not. How strong sense gratification propensity is. This is position of Kali-yuga. They are making propaganda, roṭi kāpra makān (food, clothing, shelter). So we are giving, "Come on, roṭi, makān, kāpra; you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." "No. I want wine. I want meat. I want rundi." This is going on. Simply they say: " Roṭi, kāpra, makān ." But no, they want wine, woman and sense pleasure, that's all. Roṭi, kāpra, makān is not difficult. You can get. But they want something more. You see how many advertisements for selling wine in your Hyderabad. Is that roṭi, kāpra, makān? Even the poorest of men. Just like when we were before, when this temple wasn't here and we were chopping away at the rocks in the foundation, we were paying twenty rupees a day for those men. And then they were . . . we were told that ten rupees every day would go for wine for those same men. Ten rupees out of the twenty they would immediately spend to drink. Even poor people. So many of them. And because we were trying to stop this thing in Europe or America there is agitation, that "These people are propagating brainwash. How is that, a man who will not eat, drink? This is brainwash." Hmm. He will paying ten rupees out of twenty rupees. Eh? *Yes, we were told like that, that they would take their twenty rupees' pay and then they would go and spend ten rupees on alcohol, drinking, toddy. (break) I was in . . . last time at the festival in Māyāpur I was riding from Māyāpur to Calcutta. And so one man was saying that "Oh, fish, 80 paisa a kg." "How much are potatoes?" I asked. So even their hard*-earned money, so much more they spend just to eat meat, to enjoy their senses. It is not even . . . it doesn't make sense in any way. *And that also, they cannot live on meat. They must have vegetable also. Without vegetable, simple meat*-eating will not help them. (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Just like a man, when he is haunted by a ghost, he speaks nonsense, he does nonsense. Similarly, when one is absorbed, overwhelmed by māyā , he speaks like that, he talks like that, he acts like that. (break) . . . scientists manufacture? They are very . . . (indistinct) . . . they are very proud of becoming scientists. Such nice flower, can anyone manufacture? And still, the rascal, they say there is no God. Hmm? What do you think? How do they say there is no God, these rascals? What is the reason? Actually, I think they are all misers. Hmm? They are also misers. They want to enjoy. *No, misers, I say rascals, fools and rascals. That's all. That is their real position, mūḍha. Mūḍha . This very word is used in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mūḍha. Mūḍha means rascal, ass. Asses. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he is mūḍha , ass. He is not human being. If you are intelligent enough, by seeing this flower you must admit there is God. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Find out this verse. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam: " Mūḍha , rascals, they cannot understand that I am behind everything." (to boy) Come here. Who has manufactured this flower? Boy: God. Very good. (laughter) Thank you. He is intelligent. And the rascal will say, "There is no God." Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam . Aiyye idhar aiyye. Please come this way. That's all right. What is that verse? I am very pleased that he has immediately answered the right thing. This is intelligence. Is this the one? Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya (BG 7.25)? No, it is . . . which chapter it is? Seventh. Yes. Read the verse whole. *Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti . . . (BG 7.25). Mām ebhyaḥ . Yes, read that. "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My . . ." Now, here is intelligence. This boy has got intelligence; *therefore he can see, behind this flower there is God. He immediately answered. That is intelligence. He is not seeing God, but he's seeing God. God is not present face to face, but it doesn't matter. Just like the prime minister of our country, she may not be present here, but that does not mean that she is not there. She is there. So these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" How can you see Him? By intelligence. Just like this fan is running. The powerhouse is not here, but intelligent man will understand that there is electric powerhouse from where the electricity energy is supplied, and therefore the fan is running. By the running of the fan, one can understand that there is a big powerhouse and there is an electric engineer there who is conducting the business. That is sufficient, to see the running of the fan. That is intelligence. And if somebody says: "No, no, the fan is running automatically," that is not possible. You are experiencing every moment—as soon as the electric energy is stopped, the fan is stopped. The room is dark. So there is powerhouse behind this electric energy, and the powerhouse is being managed by one engineer. This is natural conclusion. And Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram: "Under My supervision the material nature is working." Find out this verse. "This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again." Purport? "It is clearly stated here that the Supreme Lord, although aloof from all the activities of the material world, remains the supreme director. The Supreme Lord is the supreme will and the background of this material manifestation." The modern scientists, their first business is to deny that Supreme. That is modern. It is a curse for the scientist if they talk of God. Amongst the scientists this is an etiquette, not to talk of God. Everything science. Means everything nonsense, passing on as scientist. Do you believe this? Pardon me? The scientists' position denying God, do you think? It's always changing now. They continue this . . . They feel great anxiety also to talk about God. Once, about three years ago, I had met one big scientist from University of Chicago. Just a chance there was one . . . my father had invited me back home for something; the scientist was there. We got in a big discussion with him and his daughter. They were just saying: "We don't see God. We have no . . . there is no evidence of God." Even logically we could show them. They still didn't want to accept. It was so obvious to them. Ultimately they couldn't say anything. What is their logic to deny God? *It's not logic. They don't have any logic. And ultimately, if we present our conclusions of Bhagavad*-gītā to them, they are silenced. They can't say anything. But they still refu . . . I mean, they don't accept it, but they can't deny it. That is dog's obstinacy. The dog, however you ask the dog to stop barking, it will go on barking. Dog's obstinacy. Hmm. (someone brings something) What is that? I have taken. *"But in the management . . . but the management is being conducted by material nature. Kṛṣṇa also states in Bhagavad*-gītā that of all the living entities in different forms and species, 'I am the father.' The father gives seeds to the womb of the mother for the child, and similarly the Supreme Lord by His mere glance injects all the living entities into the womb of material nature, and they come out in their different forms and species, according to their last desires and activities. All these living entities, although born under the glance of the Supreme Lord, still take their different bodies according to their past deeds and desires. So the Lord is not directly attached to this material creation. He simply glances over material nature; material nature is thus activated, and everything is created immediately. Because He glances over material nature, there is undoubtedly activity on the part of the Supreme Lord, but He has nothing to do with the manifestation of the material world directly. This example is given in the smṛti: when there is a fragrant flower before someone, the fragrance is touched by the smelling power of the person, yet the smelling and the flower are detached from one another. There is a similar connection between the material world and the Supreme Personality of Godhead—actually He has nothing to do with the material world, but He creates by His glance and ordains. In summary, material nature, without the superintendence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, cannot do anything. Yet the Supreme Personality is detached from all material activities." (break) . . . ārati? Seven. God is one. Others, they are . . . just like president is one; others are government servant. Similarly, God is one. There cannot be other God. Then he is not God. But Kṛṣṇa says in *Gītā*, rudrāṇāṁ śaṅkaro 'smi. Eh? Yes. Rudrāṇāṁ śaṅkaro 'smi . That means just like Śaṅkara has got some godly power. Suppose if someone worships . . . they are worshiper of Śiva. But that is not God worship. That is Śiva worship. Why do you bring God worship? God . . . (indistinct) . . . these are going directly to the Śiva. No. No, not directly. *You can go to Lord Śiva. Yānti deva*-vratā devān (BG 9.25). *Mad*-bhakta yājino . . . *Yes. Mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām . There is distinction. You purchase ticket for Delhi, you can go to Delhi. How you can go to Bombay? But among the people there is a misconception. Then people are rascals. Therefore the mūḍhas they are. What value they have got? They have no value. . . . (indistinct Sanskrit) That's all right. You can have respect for everyone. That is good. But it does not mean that by purchasing ticket for Delhi you go to Bombay. And it does not mean that because you do not go to Bombay you have no respect for Delhi. That is not. But if you want to go to Delhi, you have purchased a ticket for Delhi. If you want to go to Bombay you must purchase a ticket for Bombay. Why do you speak nonsensically that, "Whatever ticket I purchase, I go to Bombay"? (laughter) This is nonsense. They'll take to this nonsense theory. That is Vivekananda's theory. "Whatever you do, it is all right." Yato mata tato patha . And that is not fact. These are all paths lead to the Supreme. *How? Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva*-vratā devān (BG 9.25). How, you nonsense, straightly say that everyone goes to God? This is nonsense. You can go to Śiva, you can go to Indra, Chandra . . . there are so many planets, and you'll go there. And that is reasonable. And how do you say that "Whatever ticket I purchase, I go to this, Delhi?" They say that all . . . they're all the same. *"They say." Therefore they are nonsense, mūḍha , rascals. They do not know what is God, what is demigod, what is Lord Śiva, what is Lord Viṣṇu or Brahmā. They do not know. If a woman says: "Oh, everyone is my husband," then she is a prostitute. That's all. A chaste woman will say: "No, there is one, my husband. That's all." That is chaste woman. And if she is liberal, if she says: "No, no, everyone is my husband," that means she is prostitute. She does not know what is value of husband. In Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ (BG 7.20): "Those who have adhered to other demigods, they have lost their intelligence," hṛta-jñānāḥ, "rascals." They'll go. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23). Because they are rascals, they prefer like that. The public opinion will be taken; *Kṛṣṇa's opinion will be . . . public is rascals. They can say all nonsense. That is not to be taken. You have to take—that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement—what Kṛṣṇa says. What do you think? Kṛṣṇa says, kāmais tais tair hṛta*-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ . *Śrīla Prabhupāda? But one man in Bangalore was talking. He was saying that everything there goes to Govinda, even . . . (indistinct) . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (indistinct) . . . because so many people following, they are also following. Yes. So public opinion dictates that "This property is ours." Will he give by votes? Why he'll protest on that point? His point is that because everyone is telling Kṛṣṇa is Supreme, therefore you are also supreme, but what does it proof that Kṛṣṇa is Supreme? Everyone is calling as . . . So we have to meet such rascals and we have to preach. The world is full of rascals, mūḍha . What can be done? But we cannot change our preaching because the rascals are many. That is not . . . we cannot make that . . . There is no medicine for mūḍhas . *Yes. There is medicine: there is beating with shoes. That is medicine. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ, argumentum baculum. You cannot mildly speak to the animals, "My dear cow, my dear dog, please do not bark. Do not go this way." No, you require lāṭhi , stick, and they will behave. Can you stop dog's barking by simply request? But you take the stick and beat it, and he will stop. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ . So there is no king. There is no kṣatriya . Therefore these rascals are talking all nonsense. There is no śāsana . This is king's duty, to see that they are acting according to śāstra . But there is no such king. So everyone is acting whimsically, whatever he likes, and the so*-called svāmīs are preaching, "No, no, whatever you like, that's all right. You can eat whatever you like. You can do whatever you like. You think yourself that you are God, that's all right." This is going on. By thinking himself that he's God, he becomes God. This is going on, so many meditations: "I am moving the sun, I am moving the moon, I am moving . . . mo-mo-mo-mo." (laughter) And rascals are following them. They do not know the process of God. *I know. There is no question of individual. I know these rascals. God is so easy thing that simply by I am thinking that "I am moving the sun, I am moving the . . . mo*-mo-mo-mo," he'll . . . because the whole world is mūḍha , we cannot say that, "Yes, I am also with you. I am also one of the mūḍha ." We cannot say. The votes may be against us, but we cannot agree to that. We simply speak for Kṛṣṇa's sake. That is Kṛṣṇa. We cannot make any compromise. What do they say about this version in the Bhagavad-gītā , kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ (BG 7.20)? What do they say? What is their opinion? But don't say: "Somebody said . . ." Everyone is fool, rascal. What is the value of their words? Or this one mission says, "You worship . . . your is the devatā ." . . . (indistinct) Yes, I know these rascals. Therefore the country's position is the godless India. They lost their culture. They had big propaganda that Sai Baba is God also. He was saying in the . . . these professors challenged him, so he said, "How can an ant try and understand an ocean?" He made that statement, that the Professor at Bangalore University, Vice Chancellor said that, you know, so many . . . (break) Does that mean we have to accept him? That does not mean we have to accept. (break) . . . one is against this movement because we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. (break) . . . when I was talking to him, he said only . . . (indistinct) . . . we don't call it anything, but we want to. But all the movements . . . (indistinct) . . . everything. *That means prostitute. "Everyone is my husband." Prostitution. That's all. (break) . . . does not know what is duty. Duty is sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). This is duty. Kṛṣṇa never said that, "Everything is all right." He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: "Simply surrender unto Me." That is duty. They do not know what is duty. And he's manufacturing his duty. That is not duty. Duty is that which is ordered by the superior authorities, "You do this." So if he does that, that is discharge of duty. And if he manufactures his duty, that is not duty. That is concoction. So they are manufacturing duty. That is not duty. If the child manufactures a duty that "I shall play all day. This is my duty," will the parents accept it? Under . . . (break) *No. But if he knows? But he does not know. That is the difficulty. That I was explaining, mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍho nābhijānāti . He does not know what is duty because he's a mūḍha. If you say: "If he knows," but "If he knows" means it is difficult to know what is duty. The mūḍhas , they cannot know what is duty. Therefore Kṛṣṇa personally says: "This is duty: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). This is duty." Also the paramahaṁsas never speak, they say. *Paramahaṁsa may speak all nonsense, but Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all the ācāryas —Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Nimbārka, Caitanya. They are important men. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So we have to give up the instruction of ācārya and accept some rascal? That we cannot do. Ācāryopāsanam . In Bhagavad*-gītā it is recommended that you should worship the ācārya , not these rascals who talks all nonsense. Then we'll make progress. Ācāryopāsanam . Is it not? Ācāryopāsanam is there. And still in India the ācārya's paramparā system existing, sampradāya . Rāmānuja-sampradāya, Madhvācārya-sampradāya, Nimbārka, going on. Jaiyye sab arati dekhiye. (Please go and watch the arati .) (end) Conversation -- December 5, 1976, Hyderabad *. . . the greatest program in this life is birth, old age, disease and death. And Bhagavad*-gītā gives the remedy for . . . This is good. If you want to stop this repetition of birth, death, old age and disease, then you must take the way of life spoken by . . . (break) . . . seem to be . . . Nobody is in healthy condition. (devotee offers obeisances) (break) *Just like a medicine. We may understand it. For myself, I can tell. I study Bhagavad*-gītā and I understand it, but I find so much difficulty to applicate it to the life of every day because . . . That is . . . everything is difficult, but . . . why "but"? (pause) (break) . . . a physician, to purchase the medicine, to drink the medicine, that is also difficult, but we have to do that. *Bhagavad*-gītā gives the way to go back to Godhead. Hmm? *Bhagavad*-gītā gives the way to go back to Godhead. Otherwise one has to suffer continuously. Yes, this material world, birth after birth. One birth, suffering, then again die, again another birth, again suffering. But the people are kept in ignorance. They do not know how the soul is transmigrating. (aside) Aiye. Betiye. (Come and sit.) From . . . ask them to sit down properly. Why don't you . . . is there any seat, proper? So you . . . Ye to sub halka hai. (This is all right.) What was the topic? What was going on, the topic? Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning we went to this engagement. There was the inauguration of the Vivekananda Society Home, so we went there on saṅkīrtana because we were invited by them. And one svāmī spoke, and he said service to mankind was also service to God. And at the end he also said that Vivekananda used to say that for the housewife, that the cooking pot was becoming God, had become God, had become a God. And people applauded. This is foolishness. They do not know how to act. Just like if you pour water on the tree, then it is accepted that you are pouring water on the tree. But that is not the process. The process is to pour water on the root of the tree. Practically we . . . you can make an experiment. Just like here is a tree. You don't pour water on the root but pour water on the leaves. Then it will dry in due course of time. It will not be effective. But if you pour water on the root, the water will go everywhere. So the whole thing is just like a tree. God is the origin of everything. He is the root. Aham ādir hi devānām ( BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Therefore He is the root. So if you pour water in the root, then the water is distributed everywhere. But if you pour water on the leaves, on the twigs, on the fruits, it will take time and it will not be successful. *So one who is not in awareness of the laws of nature, they commit this mistake. We can say that pouring water on the leaves is also pouring water on the tree—by serving human being you can serve the Supreme Lord. But that is not the way. Another example is that if you supply food to the stomach, then the share is partaken by all the parts of the body. But if you supply food to the part of the body, it is not shared by other part of the body. They are opening hospital for men, human being, but what about the animals? They are also part and parcel of God. They are killing them. So they have no realization of God. God says, sarva*-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4). Suppose I have got several sons. If you take care of my one son and you neglect others I will not be happy, naturally. But if you take care of all my sons, then I'll be happy. For a father there is no such distinction that, "My particular son should be taken care of and other should be neglected or they should be killed." That is not father's view. So if God is the father of all living entities, if you take simply care of the human being, then what of the others? There are so many fallacies in this argument, that by taking care of the human being you worship God. There are so many fallacies. Hmm? Is it not? So you have to put this argument that, "By serving human society is to serve God, that is not fact." That may be partially, it is not complete. Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, so he talked about all these things . . . (indistinct) I cannot hear. He didn't talk once about Kṛṣṇa. He didn't mention once the name of Kṛṣṇa, and he didn't say anything about . . . Kṛṣṇa is the root of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). So He is the root. So you pour water in the root. Just like we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. So because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, does it mean that we are not taking care of the human being? That is automatically coming. But those who are taking care of the human society only, social work, political work, they do not know even what Kṛṣṇa. Missing. That is the difference. Because we are taking of Kṛṣṇa, we have come to the human society. We are teaching them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, spiritual knowledge. That is automatically. We are feeding them, giving them prasādam . That is included. But those who are opening hospitals for human being, they are taking the poor animals to the slaughterhouse, maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. That means foolishness. Kṛṣṇa will not be happy that one son you take care by opening hospital and another son you go, you send him to the slaughterhouse. This is foolishness. Never. God will never be happy. The same example: if the father has got both children—you take care one of them and others you kill them—will the father be happy? So that is not the way of making the supreme father, God, happy. That is not the way. That is foolish way. Rather, displeasing the father. That is not a very good philosophy. Why you should make distinction? He claims: *Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7): "Every living entity is My part and parcel. Every living entity is begotten by Me. I am the father." So how you can make discrimination from one son to another? That is foolishness. You cannot expect by pleasing one son the father will be happy. But if you bring something to the father and pay him, or some food, "Sir, it is for your sons," then he'll be pleased. He'll distribute the foodstuff to his sons. But if you take care one of the sons and don't take care of the other son, the father will never please. Very . . . that is not the way of pleasing the father. That is foolishness. You may say that, "I am taking care of the best son," but to a father, either the best son or the lowest son, the same. Father does not make any . . . "Because this is best son, he should be satisfied and the worst sons should be neglect." Father does not make. Father will like better that, "You take care of my worst son first." And besides that, to take care of the human society, it is also bogus. Nobody can take care. There are so many problems in the human society, how you can take care? But the real problem is—that is for everyone— janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . Either he is animal, or human being, or demigod, or big man, or small man, or rich man, or poor man, a learned man, foolish man—these problems are there, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . So if you take care of these problems, how to save them, all of them, from these four problems, that is real service. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Otherwise temporary—"I am hungry. You give me some relief"—but that relief is temporary. I'll become again hungry. And if I come to you twice, thrice, you'll be disgusted. Neither you can. There are so many hungry men. But if with a view to solve his all problems of life, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi , if you take care of him, that is the best service. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, also Lord Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā at the end that "One who surrenders unto Me, he will be delivered from all material reactions and go to . . . (indistinct) . . ." But it is also said that some persons, they are more inclined to surrender than others. Yes. You should surrender, you should request others to surrender. That is service. But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it because of their karma, past activity, that they . . . *Whatever it may be, one can immediately surrender if he likes. The background has nothing to do. Even the background is sinful, Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66): "I shall save you from reaction of sinful life." Then there is no consideration of their background. You simply surrender. Then it will be solved, everything. But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, has anyone got the same ability to surrender? Because . . . Everyone has got. If I say: "You surrender," you just . . . what is . . . if you disagree, that is another. Otherwise you can surrender immediately. Where is the difficulty? So it's just by our personal whim that we can surrender. Anyone can surrender immediately. There is no difficulty. But if he does not, then nobody can induce him. Otherwise, if he likes, he can surrender immediately. And He said, voluntary. Kṛṣṇa does not force. If He would have forced, then He would not say: "You surrender." No, it is your will. If you like, you surrender. If I say: "You do this," that is not force. If you like, you can do it. That is your interest. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63): "Whatever you like, you do that. But I give you the right instruction, that if you surrender, you'll be happy." That is the greatest service. If you teach people how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the greatest service. That will solve his all problems. (aside) . . . (indistinct) . . . has . . . that's all. Bring water. If you don't surrender, then go on suffering. That's all. That is your business. You should surrender. I have got some doubt. What is that? If we are all children of Lord Kṛṣṇa—all the living beings are a part of Kṛṣṇa—in that case childrens in thousands and hundreds who are killed every day . . . That is created by you, that you may become the sons of one father, but every one of you has got different tendency. But I can't see how . . . No, no, just try to understand that we are all sons of Kṛṣṇa. That's nice. (aside) No, there is another one. Of brass? It is silver. You go. All right. A father has got five sons. Some of them are very learned; some of them foolish. Why? Does the father like that "The some of my sons should be rascals, and others should be very nice"? Does the father like it? Then why he becomes? Hmm? If one becomes . . . Purva janma para janma. (Reincarnation, rebirth.) That we say. Consider. But these varieties are there, so how you can check it? Cause may be different. I have seen while I was in Allahabad one big barrister's sons. One became barrister; another became ekala . You know ekala ? Ekala driver. So the father did not like that, "One of my sons should become ekala , and other son should be like me, barrister," but I have seen. And there are many instances. Father does not want that, "My son should be vagabond, useless," but sometimes they become by their own activities. That independence everyone has got. So that is not father's creation. Your point was "Why God has created like that?" That is foolishness. God says that, "You surrender." But you do not surrender. That is your foolishness. (indistinct) . . . must be punished. *Eh? Naturally. Suppose if there is some infectious disease, the doctor says: "Don't go there." And if you go there, you'll be infected. You'll suffer. How the doctor can protect you? Doctor's duty is to warn you not to go to that area, "It is now infected with smallpox." But in spite of doctor's instruction, if you go there and if you infect that disease and suffer, then it is your fault. When a man is hanged by the judgment of the court, do you think that the high*-court judge is inimical to that person? He's giving judgment to other persons that, "This one must make one lakh of rupees from that person." And next judgment, "This man must be hanged." Does it mean the high-court judge is partial? He's simply giving judgment on the merit of the particular case. So there is no argument that, "Why God has created so many varieties?" God has not created; *you have created. "Man is the architect of his own fortune." Fortune and misfortune you have created. So we have to suffer or so*-called enjoy. There is no enjoyment here. It is simply suffering. But because you are under māyā , you are thinking suffering as enjoying. Just like a hog is eating stool. Other man is becoming: "Very abominable! Oh, what nasty thing he is . . ." But he is enjoying. He is thinking, "I am enjoying the best food." I have seen in aeroplane. One Indian gentleman, he was eating the intestine of the hog. So it was horrible for me, but he was eating very nice. *So in this way the world is going on. "One man's food is another man's poison." So similarly, we are creating our next birth according to our desire. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). According to the infection of the different modes of material nature, we are creating good or bad body next life. The laws of nature is unknown to the foolish society. They are thinking, "This life is everything. Misled, they do not know the aim of life. That is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind leader is leading other blind men. This is going on. And when we present the real solution, they say it is brainwash. Now, against our movement there is propaganda in USA, charging that "He has brainwashed them." (aside) You can come here. Aage badhiye. (Move forward.) "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." This is our position. When we speak all these things, they say it is brainwashing movement. Actually it is brainwashing movement because we are dissipating all kinds of misunderstanding, values of life. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam . It is not brainwashing; *it is heart*-washing. Our heart is stacked with so many dirty things, so we are trying to wash it. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam (CC Antya 20.12). And that is our movement. We are trying to cleanse the heart so that he can understand himself. One can understand his real position and then do the needful, and life becomes successful. Guest (3) (Indian man): Where is soul? Hmm? *Jagad*-guru : He is asking where is the soul. Can you see? So soul is within the heart. When the soul goes away, you cannot explain what happened. You say: "Heart failure." So why the heart failure? The nerves and the bones and the muscle and the blood, everything is there, and still, you say that, "It stopped. Heart failure." So just like machine is running, but somehow or other stopped, but you do not know what is the cause of stopping. The cause is that the heart, when it goes away, then the machine stops. God is within the soul also. *Yes. God is along with you. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is there. *Guest (4) (Indian man): Swāmījī, in Bhagavad*-gītā it is telling karma also and surrendering also. Now, how it is possible? In karma-kāṇḍa . . . (indistinct) Karma , if you do . . . just like we are preaching so many people to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, but they will not do it. Do you think our this instruction that, "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," is taken by everyone? Do you think? Suppose you are all here. We are preaching the same thing, that, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." But these boys, they have surrendered, but you have not surrendered. . . . (indistinct) *First of all try to understand. It is . . . the free will is there. If you don't surrender, then, Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ : "Instead of sitting idly, better you do your prescribed duty." So prescribed duty is cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to guṇa and karma , there are four divisions. So if you are in the first-class division as brāhmaṇa , you do the brāhmaṇa's work. If you are a kṣatriya , you do the kṣatriya's . . . niyataṁ kuru karma . What is you are destined, you do that nicely. Don't be idle. That is Kṛṣṇa's in . . . but if you are intelligent, then Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). But you are foolish, then you be engaged in your prescribed duty. And if you are intelligent, then "You give up everything; simply surrender unto Me." That depends on you. If you are intelligent, you'll surrender; if you are not intelligent, be engaged in your karma . Kṛṣṇa is giving all facilities. Now it is up to you to make your selection. But He says, niyataṁ kuru karma . (aside) Find out this verse. Should I read the translation? Yes. "Perform your prescribed duties, for action is better than inaction." But if you have no prescribed duties, then you are animal. Just like monkey. What is his duty? He is jumping simply and creating havoc. Monkey is very busy. Wherever he'll sit down, he'll " gat , gat , gat , gat ," like this. That's all. Very busy. But what is the meaning of his business? Simply creating disturbance Therefore it is said, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam : "Act on your prescribed duties." Don't act like a monkey. That is better. What is that? "For action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." Then? Purport? *Purport: "There are many pseudo*-meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set for kṣatriyas . Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya . Such activities gradually cleanse the heart . . ." You are following? Go on. *". . . and free him from material contamination. So*-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others." *So Bhagavad*-gītā is giving you gradual process to the highest point, and highest point is to surrender. That is the most confidential part of knowledge. Sarva-guhyatamam. Guhyād guhyataram . Find out this verse, Eighteenth Chapter. He has given the instruction of karma-yoga , jñāna , everything, but the most confidential instruction is this. Translation: "Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit." Is there any purport? *"The Lord has given Arjuna confidential knowledge of the Supersoul within everyone's heart, and now He is giving the most confidential part of this knowledge: just surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At the end of the Ninth Chapter He has said, 'Just always think of Me.' The same instruction is repeated here to stress the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . This essence is not understood by a common man, but by one who is actually very dear to Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. This is the most important instruction in all Vedic literature. What Kṛṣṇa is saying in this connection is the most essential part of knowledge, and it should be carried out not only by Arjuna but by all living entities." Guhyatamam , most confidential. This is not for all, but for the advanced person and who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, He says, iṣṭo 'si me . . .? What is that next? Iṣṭo 'si ? Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti . Eh? Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi . Dṛḍham ? Dṛḍham . No. What is the spelling? Dṛḍham . No, no. The word, separate word? Iṣṭo 'si ? *D*-r-d-h-a-m . Hitam . Dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi te hitam . *Te hitam . So it is not for all. One who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee, for him, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man—"You do your prescribed duty." But they have no prescribed duty even. The people of this age, they are so fallen, they have no prescribed duty. They are simply engaged like animals—eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That's all. Animal is engaged like that, eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. So we are being educated only like animals. We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , vaiśya , utmost śūdra , like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping and sex and defense. Therefore śāstra says, nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). You should not live the life of a hog, viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ-bhujām means the stool-eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong, then "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life. *So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyataṁ kuru karma tvam . You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), and then your prescribed duties are there. If you want to become a brāhmaṇa , then śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam , jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). If you want to be kṣatriya, tejaḥ . . . what is that? Tejaḥ śauryaṁ yujyaṁ yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam . If you want to be a vaiśya , kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). And if you want to remain a śūdra , paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam . And that is prescribed duty. You classify yourself—either as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or a vaiśya —by quality, not by caste or by whims, no. Actually by qualification. Then you engage yourself in that duty. That is niyataṁ karma tvam . Otherwise, jumping like monkeys, that is not karma . That is monkey's dance. It has no value. Wasting time. You should not waste time a single moment. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam . So make that. Don't waste your time. (pause) That's all right. She is child. What can be done? You cannot . . . Swāmījī, what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? What Kṛṣṇa says, you hear and do. Just like you are now acting, family conscious or country conscious or society conscious. The dog is also working as dog conscious. Monkey is working, monkey conscious. He is thinking, "I am monkey." You are thinking you are Indian. He is thinking he is American. He is thinking as . . . so on, so on, different consciousness. But when you act Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is your real dharma. Now we are working under different consciousness; therefore varieties. And when you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is oneness, perfection, to act according to the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). What Kṛṣṇa says, you act accordingly. You are acting . . . the Communists, they are acting Lenin consciousness. Is it not? Their god is Lenin. I have been in Moscow. Everywhere Lenin's picture, Lenin's book, and they are worshiping Lenin's tomb. That is Lenin consciousness. So similarly, you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Guest (5) (Indian man): Those who have become Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will see Kṛṣṇa? *Yes, otherwise where is consciousness, if you do not think of Kṛṣṇa? Just like these boys, they are always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, either chanting or reading book or selling book or writing book, preaching Kṛṣṇa, twenty*-four hours, taking Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , taking rest for working in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything in Kṛṣṇa, chanting always Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have no other business. Guest (6) (Indian man): What is the meaning of good citizen? Good citizen? Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is spiritual vision. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme spirit, and if you remain Kṛṣṇa conscious, then spiritual vision. That is spiritual. Swāmījī, you have seen Kṛṣṇa? What do you think? We are all rascals, blindly following? Do you think like that? Then why I have not seen? Why do you ask this? If we are acting for Kṛṣṇa, do you mean to say that we are following blindly? Do you think like that? What is your opinion? If we have not seen Kṛṣṇa, then how we are acting for Kṛṣṇa? Hmm? What is your idea? We are all fools, that without seeing the master we are acting? Do you think like that? Why don't you answer? This is foolish question. How one can serve a master without seeing the master? Is it a fact that without seeing the master one is serving? (aside) Find out this verse, sarvatra yo māṁ paśyati , mayi ca sarvaṁ paśyati , like that. Sarvatra ? Yo māṁ paśyati . Or yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra . Find out. Yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra . (devotees discuss finding verse) "For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me." Is there a purport? *"A person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness certainly sees Lord Kṛṣṇa everywhere, and he sees everything in Kṛṣṇa. Such a person may appear to see all separate manifestations of the material nature, but in each and every instance he is conscious of Kṛṣṇa, knowing that everything is the manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Nothing can exist without Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the Lord of everything—this is the basic principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the development of love of Kṛṣṇa—a position transcendental even to material liberation. It is the stage beyond self*-realization at which the devotee becomes one with Kṛṣṇa in the sense that Kṛṣṇa becomes everything for the devotee, and the devotee becomes full in loving Kṛṣṇa. An intimate relationship between the Lord and the devotee then exists. In that stage, the living entity attains his immortality. Nor is the Personality of Godhead ever out of the sight of the devotee. To merge in Kṛṣṇa is spiritual annihilation. A devotee takes no such risk. It is stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā , premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (BS 5.38)." Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti . He sees every moment. *" Yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya*-guṇa-svarūpam . . ." *Govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . " 'I worship the primeval Lord Govinda, who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of Śyāmasundara situated within the heart of the devotee.' At this stage Lord Kṛṣṇa never disappears from the sight of the devotee, nor does the devotee ever lose sight of the Lord. In the case of a yogī who sees the Lord as Paramātmā within the heart, the same applies. Such a yogī turns into a pure devotee and cannot bear to live for a moment without seeing the Lord within himself." *You are seeing also Kṛṣṇa, but because you have no love, therefore you cannot appreciate how we are seeing. If you love some person you keep his photograph on the breast. Is it not? So you are seeing Kṛṣṇa in the temple, but because you have no love you think that, "I am not seeing Him." That is the defect. They are seeing Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why they have sacrificed everything for worshiping Kṛṣṇa, for dressing Kṛṣṇa, for feeding Kṛṣṇa? They are seeing Kṛṣṇa. They are not wasting their time. But you have no love for Kṛṣṇa. You're thinking that "They have not seen Kṛṣṇa. They are worshiping an idol." That is the difference. One who loves somebody, he keeps his picture on his chest. He does not—he throws it, same picture. It is question of love. Therefore it is said, premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu (BS 5.38). One who has developed that love and bhakti , he can see Kṛṣṇa at every moment. Otherwise it is not possible. And because you cannot see, you ask them also, "Can you see?" But the seeing process is different. We do not know the process; *therefore we are thinking that Kṛṣṇa cannot be seen. And one who knows the process, he sees every moment. Is it clear? You learn the process, you will see Kṛṣṇa every moment. Therefore this word is used, premāñjana*-cchurita . By the eye ointment of love you have to smear your eyes; *then you'll be able to see Kṛṣṇa. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). Find out this verse. Yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ. When one's eyes is covered by the yoga-māyā he cannot see, see Kṛṣṇa. Mūḍho 'yaṁ na abhijānāti : "Those who are rascals, they cannot see." Mūḍho 'yaṁ na abhijānāti . So one has to become interested how to see Kṛṣṇa. Guest (7) (Indian man): Satya Sai Baba says . . . Satya Sai Baba is not authority. No, no, I don't accept. Then why you quote him? We are not prepared to hear his words. Kindly clear up my doubt. No . . . that is another thing. That is another thing. All the miracles only just to increase confidence and all this . . . Why . . .? Magic is magic. That is another thing. That is not knowledge. Suppose if I want to talk here Kṛṣṇa consciousness among the masses . . . No, we have to push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, not by the ways and means by Sai Baba. That is foolishness. Can I attain such magical powers? So why? What is the use? We are not using any magical powers. Just to convince the people. Why this foolishness? We never . . . ask my disciples. I have never shown any magic. Why? That is a cheap business. That is cheating business. That is not required. It is meant for the foolish men. (indistinct) . . . Suri Bhagavantam, he was convinced by him just because of his magical powers. Who? Suri Bhagavantam is a scientist. He was convinced by him just because of his magical powers. Otherwise he could not influence me. One of my friends who was sitting there, he told me, "Satya Sai Baba, he won't come this side," he said. I said: "I'll make him to come this side." No, these are words. He has been challenged also by a group of educated men. So there are some fools, rascals. That is all . . . I have got belief in God, and so Narendra, my friend, was sitting by my side. "No, if I sit there only, he will go that way. I want to see him this side." Do you accept Sai Baba as God? No, no, not at all. Then why do you speak all this? That's . . . Not even greater than me. I don't think like that. He is also a human being like me. In the *Bhāgavatam* it is said that (indistinct Sanskrit) . . . (indistinct) And he could not do his siddhi before . . . (indistinct) . . . if it is real siddhi he could have showed all his powers even before . . . (indistinct) *Go to the standard of knowledge. Bhagavad*-gītā is accepted by the ācāryas —Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. So take that standard. Why do you go to the rascals and fools? Unless you are rascal and fool, you cannot go to the rascal and fool. Why? You take. If you want to know God, take the standard knowledge which is accepted by the . . . ācāryopāsanam . You take the knowledge through the ācāryas . Why from a rascal? That is not knowledge. Kṛṣṇa recommends how to take the knowledge. Eh? Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam (BG 13.8). Worship the ācārya . Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa guru m eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). (aside) Just read this. What is that? Amānitvam adambhitvam . . . This is the process of knowledge. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāt (SB 11.17.27). If you go to ācārya , then you'll know the knowledge. What is this, go to a magician, a rascal? Magician is authority? There are so many magicians. So one should go for God to a magician? Ācāryopāsanam . Go to ācārya . That is recommended. Why should you go to the magician? That is your fault. You go to the wrong person, and you are cheated because you want to be cheated. You want to see magic, you don't want to see God. God is personally speaking, accepted God, not that by magical . . . and who can show greater magic than Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa, when He was seven years old, He lifted the Govardhana Hill. Can this rascal do that? Who can be greater magician than Kṛṣṇa? So we shall go to the greatest magician. Why shall I go to a teeny magician? That is our misfortune. If you want to see magic, see the magic, what Kṛṣṇa has done. This is our misfortune, that we go to a wrong person and misled. If you want magician, see Kṛṣṇa, how great magician He is. He married sixteen thousand wives. Is there any instance in the history of the world that one has sixteen thousand wives and maintaining each of them? And He expanded Himself in sixteen thousand husbands. Not that one wife is waiting: "When sixteen thousand . . . after sixteen thousand nights, He would come here." No. He is present everywhere. That is magic. Nārada was surprised, that "How Kṛṣṇa is maintaining sixteen thousand wives?" He saw in each and every home sixteen thousand establishment, and Kṛṣṇa is present everywhere. *So this is magic. Why don't you see Kṛṣṇa's magic? Why you are so much allured by a teeny magician? That is your misfortune. Poor heart, poor magic. See the real magic. If you want to see magic, see the Kṛṣṇa's magic. Kṛṣṇa, when He was three months old, the Pūtanā came to kill the child by poisoning, but she was killed. So in this way, from the very beginning of Kṛṣṇa's appearance, He's killing so many demons. So why don't you see this magic? If you want to see magic, see Kṛṣṇa's magic. Why the poor magic? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29): "I am the proprietor of all the lokas ." And each loka . . . suppose this loka , earthly planet. There are hundreds of gold mines. Why you are captivated with the chaṭāka gold? Why don't you be captivated by the person who has millions of gold mines by His wish? So we are poor, therefore we are captivated by poor magician. If we are intelligent, then we should be captivated by Kṛṣṇa's magic. That is intelligence. But we are poor; we are captivated by poor magic. That's all. Don't be poor. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.25). Don't remain mūḍhas . Try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then your life will be successful. That is Kṛṣṇa knowledge. Janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). Anyone who understands Kṛṣṇa's activities, then he becomes liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . Why don't you use your valuable time for understand Kṛṣṇa? Why you are captured by the poor rascal magicians? That means we are unfortunate. If we become captivated by teeny magician, that means we are unfortunate. Be captivated by the magic Kṛṣṇa has shown. That is the point. *Guest (8) (Indian man): Your Divine Grace, there is Mukunda*-mālā-stotra by Kulaśekhara Mahārāja. Are there any translations of that in the English and other languages? Yes. Guest (8) (Indian man): There are . . . (indistinct) . . . ślokas with you . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Yes. I think we have translated Kulaśekhara . . . it is not published, but I have translated. Śrīla Prabhupāda, some of these devotees are required to . . . with your permission, I'd like to have some of the devotees come out for kīrtana and . . . (indistinct) So? You can go to the ārati , kīrtana . Go. Just take whatever you need. You also go. (break) . . . the argument that after saying: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa" and becoming free from the miseries of material life we remain still going home, still a devotee who comes through the heat, still a devotee who is dying just like an ordinary man. It is an argument like this, that you have gone to a physician for curing your disease; why you are not cured? This is nonsense question. It will take some time to be cured. Do you mean to say as soon as you go to the physician, you become cured? Do you think? Why don't you answer like that? A foolish man will say like that, that "You have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are now suffering?" Yes, suffering will be . . . kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So the assurance is there. You take the treatment. Why do you expect, immediately you go to the physician? A father gets the daughter married, expecting a child. Does it mean as soon as she's married, immediately child? And if a rascal says: "Oh, she is married, and there is no child?" Because he's a rascal. You must wait. Now she is married, it is sure she'll have child. That's a fact. But if the rascal wants, "Now my daughter is married. There is no child?" What is this nonsense? This question is like that, that "You have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are suffering?" You cannot answer this? Yes. Also you give the example of the cat catching up the mouse and the cat . . . *That is another thing. But first thing is that why do you want immediately effect? That is foolishness. The effect will be there. Therefore it is called dhairya . Utsāhād dhairyāt . Dhairya means patience. You act, God acting with patience. The result will be niścaya . The result will be there. These things are required. Utsāhād dhairyāt niścayāt tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt , sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati . So why you should have a foolish person—"Now I come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have become immediately everything. Give up everything"? Why do you think like this? The same example: the girl is married, now it is sure that she'll have child. Wait. Niścaya . When there is husband and wife there will be child. There is no doubt about it, but wait. Why do you expect immediately child on the day of marriage? This is foolishness. So you should answer these rascals like that. "You cannot expect immediately. But we are on the path. We have just entered." One enters into the school. Does it mean in one year or six months he becomes M.A.? He has to wait. But he has entered the school; there is expectation of his passing M.A. examination. But one who has not entered school, loitering in the street, he has no . . . he's hopeless. But this man has hope. Wait. The same example: if one girl is not married, then where is the question of child? Everything has to wait. Therefore it is said, utsāhād dhairyāt . One should have proper enthusiasm and patience. That is wanted. How one foolishly expects the result immediately? You sow the seed; you water it; it grows; then it becomes big tree; then pick the fruit; then eat. Immediately you cannot expect, immediately you have got. As soon as you get the seed, you have got the thing, undoubtedly. But you must give time the seed to fructify. That required. What exists between the planet Gokula and the . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa? *There is a planet who is full of cows, Gokula. That's it. Surabhīr abhipālayantam. Cintāmaṇi*-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam (BS 5.29). Kṛṣṇa is engaged there in tending cows, surabhi cows. That is Gokula. That planet is full of cows. What I mean to say is what exists between any two abodes, plenary expansions of Śrī Kṛṣṇa? What exists? In the two abodes of the plenary expansion of Kṛṣṇa. What exists? *Plenary? Yes, Kṛṣṇa is expanding millions and millions forms. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (BS 5.33). That is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is expanded, and He's living in your heart, my heart, ant's heart, everyone's heart. These are expansions, Paramātmā. Guest (9) (Indian man): Sir, his point is what exists between the planets? This intervening medium. So you do not know the outer space? Outer space? The space is there. Just this planet, sun planet, there is space between. You do not know this? Eh? Do you mean to say there is no space between His planets? I mean to say . . . now you mean to say also. You do not know there is space difference between one planet to another? Unless it is bounded by space. So whatever it may be, there is difference. Just like you are existing, I am existing. There is space. So what is the difficulty? No, but actually it is beyond space and time. Transcendental. Spiritual planets, he means to say. They are beyond space. They are beyond time and space. Yes. So what does he mean? What does he mean? Guest (10): What is your point? *The point is that . . . you can explain in this way, that goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma*-bhūtaḥ (BS 5.37). Kṛṣṇa is in the Goloka planet, which is far, far away from our planet, but still He is everywhere. That is the difference. That you cannot imagine. In our material knowledge you cannot imagine that. But that is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati , tad aham aśnāmi (BG 9.26): "Anyone offering Me in devotion patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam , I eat." Now, Kṛṣṇa is living far, far away in the Goloka planet. How He can eat? That is your imagining. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, I do." That is Kṛṣṇa. Although He is far, far away, He is within your heart. That you cannot imagine, how it is possible. That is your material knowledge. But you have to accept from the statement of śāstra that although He is far, far away—within your heart. Aṇḍāntara-stha-para . . . He is within the atom also. So that you cannot imagine. That requires a different knowledge, Vedic knowledge. The material knowledge will not help you, but you cannot imagine. You have to accept Vedic knowledge. What is stated in the Vedas , that you have to accept. That's all. Otherwise there is no possibility. Therefore to understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's activities, you have to learn from Kṛṣṇa. That is Bhagavad-gītā . You cannot manufacture your knowledge. That is not . . . because you are defective—your senses are imperfect—so whatever knowledge you get through your senses, that is all imperfect. You cannot get perfect knowledge by your imperfect senses. That is not possible. Therefore the Vedic injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to learn that transcendental science you have to approach a guru who knows it. This is a different phase of knowledge. By your material calculation it will be difficult. The same thing, Kṛṣṇa says, aśnāmi : "I eat." So Kṛṣṇa is far, far away. How does He eat? It is said there that holy planets exist the . . . Who says? Who says? Who is the sayer? An imperfect person, that's all. No, it is in the *Bhāgavatam* . That's what I am saying. Oh, what is that? That holy planets exist between the lotus stem that's sprouting from navel of Kṛṣṇa. But there are many planets, millions of planets . . . (indistinct) *Yes, yes. That is all explained there. Yasyaika*-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (BS 5.48). Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya . The Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing, and with the breathing innumerable planets are coming, brahmāṇḍas are coming out. Yasya eka niśvasita-kālam atha avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ. Jagad-aṇḍa means universe, and jagad-aṇḍa-nāthaḥ means Brahmā. Millions of Brahmās living within the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. So we have to accept this Vedic knowledge. You cannot compare with your limited knowledge. That is not . . . His argument is that everything is bound by space. Yes, space is there. No, it's in the pits of the . . . Space. Space grows, Brahman. Bṛhatvād bṛhannatvāt . Brahman means the greatest. The space is considered to be the greatest. So it is not only greatest but it is expanding more and more. It is becoming greater and greater. Just like some children, they made some foam, soap. It becomes bigger, bigger, bigger. It is like that. It comes from the breathing period, but as soon as come out it becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. That is bṛhatvād bṛhannatvāt: Brahman, the greatest. A small seed of banyan tree, very small, you cannot . . . it becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, and so big tree with the leaves. You see daily how it is coming. Can you make such seed, you scientist? Can you make? Then? Why do you compare your poor knowledge with Kṛṣṇa's knowledge? That is your poor fund of knowledge. You are thinking that, "Kṛṣṇa may be like me." You can just compare the small banyan tree seed, just like a mustard seed, and it contains such a big tree; not only big tree, millions of seeds also, containing another millions of big trees. Can you make such seed? Hmm? You scientists, can you make? You tell me. Can you prepare that seed? Then what you are scientist? See Kṛṣṇa's science. Don't compare yourself with Kṛṣṇa's science even. No, one thing, if you say Goloka is infinite, we should be existing within Gokula. How is it that we are without Gokula? Yes, we are within Kṛṣṇa—therefore you are within Gokula. Kṛṣṇa is within us. *Yes. And Kṛṣṇa is without. That is Kṛṣṇa, antar bahiḥ . Antar bahiḥ . Kuntī says in her prayers that "Kṛṣṇa, You are antar bahiḥ . Still, people cannot understand. You are . . . without, You are existing, and within, You are . . . still, they are so rascal, they cannot understand." Antar bahiḥ . Kṛṣṇa is without, Kṛṣṇa is within, but they cannot see. That is their misfortune. Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35). Kṛṣṇa is within the paramāṇu , atom. Can you find out Kṛṣṇa? He says, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd . . . (BG 18.61). He is within your heart. Can you find out? Then where is your science? It is already indicated that He is here. Find out. How you can find out? The dimension of the soul is given, one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. The tip of the hair, you divide into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the dimension of the soul. How can you find out? Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīvo bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ (CC Madhya 19.140). Everything is written there. Now you find out the measurement. You cannot find out measurement of the tip of the hair. And you have to divide into ten thousand parts. Then the measurement of the soul will come. So how can you do it? But they are described in the śāstra . So go and see ārati . (end) Conversation -- December 5, 1976, Hyderabad *. . . the greatest program in this life is birth, old age, disease and death. And Bhagavad*-gītā gives the remedy for . . . This is good. If you want to stop this repetition of birth, death, old age and disease, then you must take the way of life spoken by . . . (break) . . . seem to be . . . Nobody is in healthy condition. (devotee offers obeisances) (break) *Just like a medicine. We may understand it. For myself, I can tell. I study Bhagavad*-gītā and I understand it, but I find so much difficulty to applicate it to the life of every day because . . . That is . . . everything is difficult, but . . . why "but"? (pause) (break) . . . a physician, to purchase the medicine, to drink the medicine, that is also difficult, but we have to do that. *Bhagavad*-gītā gives the way to go back to Godhead. Hmm? *Bhagavad*-gītā gives the way to go back to Godhead. Otherwise one has to suffer continuously. Yes, this material world, birth after birth. One birth, suffering, then again die, again another birth, again suffering. But the people are kept in ignorance. They do not know how the soul is transmigrating. (aside) Aiye. Betiye. (Come and sit.) From . . . ask them to sit down properly. Why don't you . . . is there any seat, proper? So you . . . Ye to sub halka hai. (This is all right.) What was the topic? What was going on, the topic? Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning we went to this engagement. There was the inauguration of the Vivekananda Society Home, so we went there on saṅkīrtana because we were invited by them. And one svāmī spoke, and he said service to mankind was also service to God. And at the end he also said that Vivekananda used to say that for the housewife, that the cooking pot was becoming God, had become God, had become a God. And people applauded. This is foolishness. They do not know how to act. Just like if you pour water on the tree, then it is accepted that you are pouring water on the tree. But that is not the process. The process is to pour water on the root of the tree. Practically we . . . you can make an experiment. Just like here is a tree. You don't pour water on the root but pour water on the leaves. Then it will dry in due course of time. It will not be effective. But if you pour water on the root, the water will go everywhere. So the whole thing is just like a tree. God is the origin of everything. He is the root. Aham ādir hi devānām ( BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Therefore He is the root. So if you pour water in the root, then the water is distributed everywhere. But if you pour water on the leaves, on the twigs, on the fruits, it will take time and it will not be successful. *So one who is not in awareness of the laws of nature, they commit this mistake. We can say that pouring water on the leaves is also pouring water on the tree—by serving human being you can serve the Supreme Lord. But that is not the way. Another example is that if you supply food to the stomach, then the share is partaken by all the parts of the body. But if you supply food to the part of the body, it is not shared by other part of the body. They are opening hospital for men, human being, but what about the animals? They are also part and parcel of God. They are killing them. So they have no realization of God. God says, sarva*-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4). Suppose I have got several sons. If you take care of my one son and you neglect others I will not be happy, naturally. But if you take care of all my sons, then I'll be happy. For a father there is no such distinction that, "My particular son should be taken care of and other should be neglected or they should be killed." That is not father's view. So if God is the father of all living entities, if you take simply care of the human being, then what of the others? There are so many fallacies in this argument, that by taking care of the human being you worship God. There are so many fallacies. Hmm? Is it not? So you have to put this argument that, "By serving human society is to serve God, that is not fact." That may be partially, it is not complete. Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, so he talked about all these things . . . (indistinct) I cannot hear. He didn't talk once about Kṛṣṇa. He didn't mention once the name of Kṛṣṇa, and he didn't say anything about . . . Kṛṣṇa is the root of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). So He is the root. So you pour water in the root. Just like we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. So because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, does it mean that we are not taking care of the human being? That is automatically coming. But those who are taking care of the human society only, social work, political work, they do not know even what Kṛṣṇa. Missing. That is the difference. Because we are taking of Kṛṣṇa, we have come to the human society. We are teaching them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, spiritual knowledge. That is automatically. We are feeding them, giving them prasādam . That is included. But those who are opening hospitals for human being, they are taking the poor animals to the slaughterhouse, maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. That means foolishness. Kṛṣṇa will not be happy that one son you take care by opening hospital and another son you go, you send him to the slaughterhouse. This is foolishness. Never. God will never be happy. The same example: if the father has got both children—you take care one of them and others you kill them—will the father be happy? So that is not the way of making the supreme father, God, happy. That is not the way. That is foolish way. Rather, displeasing the father. That is not a very good philosophy. Why you should make distinction? He claims: *Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7): "Every living entity is My part and parcel. Every living entity is begotten by Me. I am the father." So how you can make discrimination from one son to another? That is foolishness. You cannot expect by pleasing one son the father will be happy. But if you bring something to the father and pay him, or some food, "Sir, it is for your sons," then he'll be pleased. He'll distribute the foodstuff to his sons. But if you take care one of the sons and don't take care of the other son, the father will never please. Very . . . that is not the way of pleasing the father. That is foolishness. You may say that, "I am taking care of the best son," but to a father, either the best son or the lowest son, the same. Father does not make any . . . "Because this is best son, he should be satisfied and the worst sons should be neglect." Father does not make. Father will like better that, "You take care of my worst son first." And besides that, to take care of the human society, it is also bogus. Nobody can take care. There are so many problems in the human society, how you can take care? But the real problem is—that is for everyone— janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . Either he is animal, or human being, or demigod, or big man, or small man, or rich man, or poor man, a learned man, foolish man—these problems are there, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . So if you take care of these problems, how to save them, all of them, from these four problems, that is real service. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Otherwise temporary—"I am hungry. You give me some relief"—but that relief is temporary. I'll become again hungry. And if I come to you twice, thrice, you'll be disgusted. Neither you can. There are so many hungry men. But if with a view to solve his all problems of life, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi , if you take care of him, that is the best service. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, also Lord Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā at the end that "One who surrenders unto Me, he will be delivered from all material reactions and go to . . . (indistinct) . . ." But it is also said that some persons, they are more inclined to surrender than others. Yes. You should surrender, you should request others to surrender. That is service. But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it because of their karma, past activity, that they . . . *Whatever it may be, one can immediately surrender if he likes. The background has nothing to do. Even the background is sinful, Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66): "I shall save you from reaction of sinful life." Then there is no consideration of their background. You simply surrender. Then it will be solved, everything. But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, has anyone got the same ability to surrender? Because . . . Everyone has got. If I say: "You surrender," you just . . . what is . . . if you disagree, that is another. Otherwise you can surrender immediately. Where is the difficulty? So it's just by our personal whim that we can surrender. Anyone can surrender immediately. There is no difficulty. But if he does not, then nobody can induce him. Otherwise, if he likes, he can surrender immediately. And He said, voluntary. Kṛṣṇa does not force. If He would have forced, then He would not say: "You surrender." No, it is your will. If you like, you surrender. If I say: "You do this," that is not force. If you like, you can do it. That is your interest. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63): "Whatever you like, you do that. But I give you the right instruction, that if you surrender, you'll be happy." That is the greatest service. If you teach people how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the greatest service. That will solve his all problems. (aside) . . . (indistinct) . . . has . . . that's all. Bring water. If you don't surrender, then go on suffering. That's all. That is your business. You should surrender. I have got some doubt. What is that? If we are all children of Lord Kṛṣṇa—all the living beings are a part of Kṛṣṇa—in that case childrens in thousands and hundreds who are killed every day . . . That is created by you, that you may become the sons of one father, but every one of you has got different tendency. But I can't see how . . . No, no, just try to understand that we are all sons of Kṛṣṇa. That's nice. (aside) No, there is another one. Of brass? It is silver. You go. All right. A father has got five sons. Some of them are very learned; some of them foolish. Why? Does the father like that "The some of my sons should be rascals, and others should be very nice"? Does the father like it? Then why he becomes? Hmm? If one becomes . . . Purva janma para janma. (Reincarnation, rebirth.) That we say. Consider. But these varieties are there, so how you can check it? Cause may be different. I have seen while I was in Allahabad one big barrister's sons. One became barrister; another became ekala . You know ekala ? Ekala driver. So the father did not like that, "One of my sons should become ekala , and other son should be like me, barrister," but I have seen. And there are many instances. Father does not want that, "My son should be vagabond, useless," but sometimes they become by their own activities. That independence everyone has got. So that is not father's creation. Your point was "Why God has created like that?" That is foolishness. God says that, "You surrender." But you do not surrender. That is your foolishness. (indistinct) . . . must be punished. *Eh? Naturally. Suppose if there is some infectious disease, the doctor says: "Don't go there." And if you go there, you'll be infected. You'll suffer. How the doctor can protect you? Doctor's duty is to warn you not to go to that area, "It is now infected with smallpox." But in spite of doctor's instruction, if you go there and if you infect that disease and suffer, then it is your fault. When a man is hanged by the judgment of the court, do you think that the high*-court judge is inimical to that person? He's giving judgment to other persons that, "This one must make one lakh of rupees from that person." And next judgment, "This man must be hanged." Does it mean the high-court judge is partial? He's simply giving judgment on the merit of the particular case. So there is no argument that, "Why God has created so many varieties?" God has not created; *you have created. "Man is the architect of his own fortune." Fortune and misfortune you have created. So we have to suffer or so*-called enjoy. There is no enjoyment here. It is simply suffering. But because you are under māyā , you are thinking suffering as enjoying. Just like a hog is eating stool. Other man is becoming: "Very abominable! Oh, what nasty thing he is . . ." But he is enjoying. He is thinking, "I am enjoying the best food." I have seen in aeroplane. One Indian gentleman, he was eating the intestine of the hog. So it was horrible for me, but he was eating very nice. *So in this way the world is going on. "One man's food is another man's poison." So similarly, we are creating our next birth according to our desire. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). According to the infection of the different modes of material nature, we are creating good or bad body next life. The laws of nature is unknown to the foolish society. They are thinking, "This life is everything. Misled, they do not know the aim of life. That is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind leader is leading other blind men. This is going on. And when we present the real solution, they say it is brainwash. Now, against our movement there is propaganda in USA, charging that "He has brainwashed them." (aside) You can come here. Aage badhiye. (Move forward.) "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." This is our position. When we speak all these things, they say it is brainwashing movement. Actually it is brainwashing movement because we are dissipating all kinds of misunderstanding, values of life. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam . It is not brainwashing; *it is heart*-washing. Our heart is stacked with so many dirty things, so we are trying to wash it. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam (CC Antya 20.12). And that is our movement. We are trying to cleanse the heart so that he can understand himself. One can understand his real position and then do the needful, and life becomes successful. Guest (3) (Indian man): Where is soul? Hmm? *Jagad*-guru : He is asking where is the soul. Can you see? So soul is within the heart. When the soul goes away, you cannot explain what happened. You say: "Heart failure." So why the heart failure? The nerves and the bones and the muscle and the blood, everything is there, and still, you say that, "It stopped. Heart failure." So just like machine is running, but somehow or other stopped, but you do not know what is the cause of stopping. The cause is that the heart, when it goes away, then the machine stops. God is within the soul also. *Yes. God is along with you. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is there. *Guest (4) (Indian man): Swāmījī, in Bhagavad*-gītā it is telling karma also and surrendering also. Now, how it is possible? In karma-kāṇḍa . . . (indistinct) Karma , if you do . . . just like we are preaching so many people to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, but they will not do it. Do you think our this instruction that, "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," is taken by everyone? Do you think? Suppose you are all here. We are preaching the same thing, that, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." But these boys, they have surrendered, but you have not surrendered. . . . (indistinct) *First of all try to understand. It is . . . the free will is there. If you don't surrender, then, Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ : "Instead of sitting idly, better you do your prescribed duty." So prescribed duty is cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to guṇa and karma , there are four divisions. So if you are in the first-class division as brāhmaṇa , you do the brāhmaṇa's work. If you are a kṣatriya , you do the kṣatriya's . . . niyataṁ kuru karma . What is you are destined, you do that nicely. Don't be idle. That is Kṛṣṇa's in . . . but if you are intelligent, then Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). But you are foolish, then you be engaged in your prescribed duty. And if you are intelligent, then "You give up everything; simply surrender unto Me." That depends on you. If you are intelligent, you'll surrender; if you are not intelligent, be engaged in your karma . Kṛṣṇa is giving all facilities. Now it is up to you to make your selection. But He says, niyataṁ kuru karma . (aside) Find out this verse. Should I read the translation? Yes. "Perform your prescribed duties, for action is better than inaction." But if you have no prescribed duties, then you are animal. Just like monkey. What is his duty? He is jumping simply and creating havoc. Monkey is very busy. Wherever he'll sit down, he'll " gat , gat , gat , gat ," like this. That's all. Very busy. But what is the meaning of his business? Simply creating disturbance Therefore it is said, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam : "Act on your prescribed duties." Don't act like a monkey. That is better. What is that? "For action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." Then? Purport? *Purport: "There are many pseudo*-meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set for kṣatriyas . Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya . Such activities gradually cleanse the heart . . ." You are following? Go on. *". . . and free him from material contamination. So*-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others." *So Bhagavad*-gītā is giving you gradual process to the highest point, and highest point is to surrender. That is the most confidential part of knowledge. Sarva-guhyatamam. Guhyād guhyataram . Find out this verse, Eighteenth Chapter. He has given the instruction of karma-yoga , jñāna , everything, but the most confidential instruction is this. Translation: "Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit." Is there any purport? *"The Lord has given Arjuna confidential knowledge of the Supersoul within everyone's heart, and now He is giving the most confidential part of this knowledge: just surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At the end of the Ninth Chapter He has said, 'Just always think of Me.' The same instruction is repeated here to stress the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . This essence is not understood by a common man, but by one who is actually very dear to Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. This is the most important instruction in all Vedic literature. What Kṛṣṇa is saying in this connection is the most essential part of knowledge, and it should be carried out not only by Arjuna but by all living entities." Guhyatamam , most confidential. This is not for all, but for the advanced person and who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, He says, iṣṭo 'si me . . .? What is that next? Iṣṭo 'si ? Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti . Eh? Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi . Dṛḍham ? Dṛḍham . No. What is the spelling? Dṛḍham . No, no. The word, separate word? Iṣṭo 'si ? *D*-r-d-h-a-m . Hitam . Dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi te hitam . *Te hitam . So it is not for all. One who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee, for him, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man—"You do your prescribed duty." But they have no prescribed duty even. The people of this age, they are so fallen, they have no prescribed duty. They are simply engaged like animals—eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That's all. Animal is engaged like that, eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. So we are being educated only like animals. We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , vaiśya , utmost śūdra , like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping and sex and defense. Therefore śāstra says, nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). You should not live the life of a hog, viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ-bhujām means the stool-eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong, then "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life. *So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyataṁ kuru karma tvam . You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), and then your prescribed duties are there. If you want to become a brāhmaṇa , then śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam , jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). If you want to be kṣatriya, tejaḥ . . . what is that? Tejaḥ śauryaṁ yujyaṁ yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam . If you want to be a vaiśya , kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). And if you want to remain a śūdra , paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam . And that is prescribed duty. You classify yourself—either as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or a vaiśya —by quality, not by caste or by whims, no. Actually by qualification. Then you engage yourself in that duty. That is niyataṁ karma tvam . Otherwise, jumping like monkeys, that is not karma . That is monkey's dance. It has no value. Wasting time. You should not waste time a single moment. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam . So make that. Don't waste your time. (pause) That's all right. She is child. What can be done? You cannot . . . Swāmījī, what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? What Kṛṣṇa says, you hear and do. Just like you are now acting, family conscious or country conscious or society conscious. The dog is also working as dog conscious. Monkey is working, monkey conscious. He is thinking, "I am monkey." You are thinking you are Indian. He is thinking he is American. He is thinking as . . . so on, so on, different consciousness. But when you act Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is your real dharma. Now we are working under different consciousness; therefore varieties. And when you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is oneness, perfection, to act according to the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). What Kṛṣṇa says, you act accordingly. You are acting . . . the Communists, they are acting Lenin consciousness. Is it not? Their god is Lenin. I have been in Moscow. Everywhere Lenin's picture, Lenin's book, and they are worshiping Lenin's tomb. That is Lenin consciousness. So similarly, you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Guest (5) (Indian man): Those who have become Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will see Kṛṣṇa? *Yes, otherwise where is consciousness, if you do not think of Kṛṣṇa? Just like these boys, they are always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, either chanting or reading book or selling book or writing book, preaching Kṛṣṇa, twenty*-four hours, taking Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , taking rest for working in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything in Kṛṣṇa, chanting always Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have no other business. Guest (6) (Indian man): What is the meaning of good citizen? Good citizen? Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is spiritual vision. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme spirit, and if you remain Kṛṣṇa conscious, then spiritual vision. That is spiritual. Swāmījī, you have seen Kṛṣṇa? What do you think? We are all rascals, blindly following? Do you think like that? Then why I have not seen? Why do you ask this? If we are acting for Kṛṣṇa, do you mean to say that we are following blindly? Do you think like that? What is your opinion? If we have not seen Kṛṣṇa, then how we are acting for Kṛṣṇa? Hmm? What is your idea? We are all fools, that without seeing the master we are acting? Do you think like that? Why don't you answer? This is foolish question. How one can serve a master without seeing the master? Is it a fact that without seeing the master one is serving? (aside) Find out this verse, sarvatra yo māṁ paśyati , mayi ca sarvaṁ paśyati , like that. Sarvatra ? Yo māṁ paśyati . Or yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra . Find out. Yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra . (devotees discuss finding verse) "For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me." Is there a purport? *"A person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness certainly sees Lord Kṛṣṇa everywhere, and he sees everything in Kṛṣṇa. Such a person may appear to see all separate manifestations of the material nature, but in each and every instance he is conscious of Kṛṣṇa, knowing that everything is the manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Nothing can exist without Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the Lord of everything—this is the basic principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the development of love of Kṛṣṇa—a position transcendental even to material liberation. It is the stage beyond self*-realization at which the devotee becomes one with Kṛṣṇa in the sense that Kṛṣṇa becomes everything for the devotee, and the devotee becomes full in loving Kṛṣṇa. An intimate relationship between the Lord and the devotee then exists. In that stage, the living entity attains his immortality. Nor is the Personality of Godhead ever out of the sight of the devotee. To merge in Kṛṣṇa is spiritual annihilation. A devotee takes no such risk. It is stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā , premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (BS 5.38)." Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti . He sees every moment. *" Yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya*-guṇa-svarūpam . . ." *Govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . " 'I worship the primeval Lord Govinda, who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of Śyāmasundara situated within the heart of the devotee.' At this stage Lord Kṛṣṇa never disappears from the sight of the devotee, nor does the devotee ever lose sight of the Lord. In the case of a yogī who sees the Lord as Paramātmā within the heart, the same applies. Such a yogī turns into a pure devotee and cannot bear to live for a moment without seeing the Lord within himself." *You are seeing also Kṛṣṇa, but because you have no love, therefore you cannot appreciate how we are seeing. If you love some person you keep his photograph on the breast. Is it not? So you are seeing Kṛṣṇa in the temple, but because you have no love you think that, "I am not seeing Him." That is the defect. They are seeing Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why they have sacrificed everything for worshiping Kṛṣṇa, for dressing Kṛṣṇa, for feeding Kṛṣṇa? They are seeing Kṛṣṇa. They are not wasting their time. But you have no love for Kṛṣṇa. You're thinking that "They have not seen Kṛṣṇa. They are worshiping an idol." That is the difference. One who loves somebody, he keeps his picture on his chest. He does not—he throws it, same picture. It is question of love. Therefore it is said, premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu (BS 5.38). One who has developed that love and bhakti , he can see Kṛṣṇa at every moment. Otherwise it is not possible. And because you cannot see, you ask them also, "Can you see?" But the seeing process is different. We do not know the process; *therefore we are thinking that Kṛṣṇa cannot be seen. And one who knows the process, he sees every moment. Is it clear? You learn the process, you will see Kṛṣṇa every moment. Therefore this word is used, premāñjana*-cchurita . By the eye ointment of love you have to smear your eyes; *then you'll be able to see Kṛṣṇa. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). Find out this verse. Yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ. When one's eyes is covered by the yoga-māyā he cannot see, see Kṛṣṇa. Mūḍho 'yaṁ na abhijānāti : "Those who are rascals, they cannot see." Mūḍho 'yaṁ na abhijānāti . So one has to become interested how to see Kṛṣṇa. Guest (7) (Indian man): Satya Sai Baba says . . . Satya Sai Baba is not authority. No, no, I don't accept. Then why you quote him? We are not prepared to hear his words. Kindly clear up my doubt. No . . . that is another thing. That is another thing. All the miracles only just to increase confidence and all this . . . Why . . .? Magic is magic. That is another thing. That is not knowledge. Suppose if I want to talk here Kṛṣṇa consciousness among the masses . . . No, we have to push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, not by the ways and means by Sai Baba. That is foolishness. Can I attain such magical powers? So why? What is the use? We are not using any magical powers. Just to convince the people. Why this foolishness? We never . . . ask my disciples. I have never shown any magic. Why? That is a cheap business. That is cheating business. That is not required. It is meant for the foolish men. (indistinct) . . . Suri Bhagavantam, he was convinced by him just because of his magical powers. Who? Suri Bhagavantam is a scientist. He was convinced by him just because of his magical powers. Otherwise he could not influence me. One of my friends who was sitting there, he told me, "Satya Sai Baba, he won't come this side," he said. I said: "I'll make him to come this side." No, these are words. He has been challenged also by a group of educated men. So there are some fools, rascals. That is all . . . I have got belief in God, and so Narendra, my friend, was sitting by my side. "No, if I sit there only, he will go that way. I want to see him this side." Do you accept Sai Baba as God? No, no, not at all. Then why do you speak all this? That's . . . Not even greater than me. I don't think like that. He is also a human being like me. In the *Bhāgavatam* it is said that (indistinct Sanskrit) . . . (indistinct) And he could not do his siddhi before . . . (indistinct) . . . if it is real siddhi he could have showed all his powers even before . . . (indistinct) *Go to the standard of knowledge. Bhagavad*-gītā is accepted by the ācāryas —Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. So take that standard. Why do you go to the rascals and fools? Unless you are rascal and fool, you cannot go to the rascal and fool. Why? You take. If you want to know God, take the standard knowledge which is accepted by the . . . ācāryopāsanam . You take the knowledge through the ācāryas . Why from a rascal? That is not knowledge. Kṛṣṇa recommends how to take the knowledge. Eh? Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam (BG 13.8). Worship the ācārya . Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa guru m eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). (aside) Just read this. What is that? Amānitvam adambhitvam . . . This is the process of knowledge. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāt (SB 11.17.27). If you go to ācārya , then you'll know the knowledge. What is this, go to a magician, a rascal? Magician is authority? There are so many magicians. So one should go for God to a magician? Ācāryopāsanam . Go to ācārya . That is recommended. Why should you go to the magician? That is your fault. You go to the wrong person, and you are cheated because you want to be cheated. You want to see magic, you don't want to see God. God is personally speaking, accepted God, not that by magical . . . and who can show greater magic than Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa, when He was seven years old, He lifted the Govardhana Hill. Can this rascal do that? Who can be greater magician than Kṛṣṇa? So we shall go to the greatest magician. Why shall I go to a teeny magician? That is our misfortune. If you want to see magic, see the magic, what Kṛṣṇa has done. This is our misfortune, that we go to a wrong person and misled. If you want magician, see Kṛṣṇa, how great magician He is. He married sixteen thousand wives. Is there any instance in the history of the world that one has sixteen thousand wives and maintaining each of them? And He expanded Himself in sixteen thousand husbands. Not that one wife is waiting: "When sixteen thousand . . . after sixteen thousand nights, He would come here." No. He is present everywhere. That is magic. Nārada was surprised, that "How Kṛṣṇa is maintaining sixteen thousand wives?" He saw in each and every home sixteen thousand establishment, and Kṛṣṇa is present everywhere. *So this is magic. Why don't you see Kṛṣṇa's magic? Why you are so much allured by a teeny magician? That is your misfortune. Poor heart, poor magic. See the real magic. If you want to see magic, see the Kṛṣṇa's magic. Kṛṣṇa, when He was three months old, the Pūtanā came to kill the child by poisoning, but she was killed. So in this way, from the very beginning of Kṛṣṇa's appearance, He's killing so many demons. So why don't you see this magic? If you want to see magic, see Kṛṣṇa's magic. Why the poor magic? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29): "I am the proprietor of all the lokas ." And each loka . . . suppose this loka , earthly planet. There are hundreds of gold mines. Why you are captivated with the chaṭāka gold? Why don't you be captivated by the person who has millions of gold mines by His wish? So we are poor, therefore we are captivated by poor magician. If we are intelligent, then we should be captivated by Kṛṣṇa's magic. That is intelligence. But we are poor; we are captivated by poor magic. That's all. Don't be poor. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.25). Don't remain mūḍhas . Try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then your life will be successful. That is Kṛṣṇa knowledge. Janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). Anyone who understands Kṛṣṇa's activities, then he becomes liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . Why don't you use your valuable time for understand Kṛṣṇa? Why you are captured by the poor rascal magicians? That means we are unfortunate. If we become captivated by teeny magician, that means we are unfortunate. Be captivated by the magic Kṛṣṇa has shown. That is the point. *Guest (8) (Indian man): Your Divine Grace, there is Mukunda*-mālā-stotra by Kulaśekhara Mahārāja. Are there any translations of that in the English and other languages? Yes. Guest (8) (Indian man): There are . . . (indistinct) . . . ślokas with you . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Yes. I think we have translated Kulaśekhara . . . it is not published, but I have translated. Śrīla Prabhupāda, some of these devotees are required to . . . with your permission, I'd like to have some of the devotees come out for kīrtana and . . . (indistinct) So? You can go to the ārati , kīrtana . Go. Just take whatever you need. You also go. (break) . . . the argument that after saying: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa" and becoming free from the miseries of material life we remain still going home, still a devotee who comes through the heat, still a devotee who is dying just like an ordinary man. It is an argument like this, that you have gone to a physician for curing your disease; why you are not cured? This is nonsense question. It will take some time to be cured. Do you mean to say as soon as you go to the physician, you become cured? Do you think? Why don't you answer like that? A foolish man will say like that, that "You have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are now suffering?" Yes, suffering will be . . . kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So the assurance is there. You take the treatment. Why do you expect, immediately you go to the physician? A father gets the daughter married, expecting a child. Does it mean as soon as she's married, immediately child? And if a rascal says: "Oh, she is married, and there is no child?" Because he's a rascal. You must wait. Now she is married, it is sure she'll have child. That's a fact. But if the rascal wants, "Now my daughter is married. There is no child?" What is this nonsense? This question is like that, that "You have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are suffering?" You cannot answer this? Yes. Also you give the example of the cat catching up the mouse and the cat . . . *That is another thing. But first thing is that why do you want immediately effect? That is foolishness. The effect will be there. Therefore it is called dhairya . Utsāhād dhairyāt . Dhairya means patience. You act, God acting with patience. The result will be niścaya . The result will be there. These things are required. Utsāhād dhairyāt niścayāt tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt , sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati . So why you should have a foolish person—"Now I come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have become immediately everything. Give up everything"? Why do you think like this? The same example: the girl is married, now it is sure that she'll have child. Wait. Niścaya . When there is husband and wife there will be child. There is no doubt about it, but wait. Why do you expect immediately child on the day of marriage? This is foolishness. So you should answer these rascals like that. "You cannot expect immediately. But we are on the path. We have just entered." One enters into the school. Does it mean in one year or six months he becomes M.A.? He has to wait. But he has entered the school; there is expectation of his passing M.A. examination. But one who has not entered school, loitering in the street, he has no . . . he's hopeless. But this man has hope. Wait. The same example: if one girl is not married, then where is the question of child? Everything has to wait. Therefore it is said, utsāhād dhairyāt . One should have proper enthusiasm and patience. That is wanted. How one foolishly expects the result immediately? You sow the seed; you water it; it grows; then it becomes big tree; then pick the fruit; then eat. Immediately you cannot expect, immediately you have got. As soon as you get the seed, you have got the thing, undoubtedly. But you must give time the seed to fructify. That required. What exists between the planet Gokula and the . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa? *There is a planet who is full of cows, Gokula. That's it. Surabhīr abhipālayantam. Cintāmaṇi*-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam (BS 5.29). Kṛṣṇa is engaged there in tending cows, surabhi cows. That is Gokula. That planet is full of cows. What I mean to say is what exists between any two abodes, plenary expansions of Śrī Kṛṣṇa? What exists? In the two abodes of the plenary expansion of Kṛṣṇa. What exists? *Plenary? Yes, Kṛṣṇa is expanding millions and millions forms. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (BS 5.33). That is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is expanded, and He's living in your heart, my heart, ant's heart, everyone's heart. These are expansions, Paramātmā. Guest (9) (Indian man): Sir, his point is what exists between the planets? This intervening medium. So you do not know the outer space? Outer space? The space is there. Just this planet, sun planet, there is space between. You do not know this? Eh? Do you mean to say there is no space between His planets? I mean to say . . . now you mean to say also. You do not know there is space difference between one planet to another? Unless it is bounded by space. So whatever it may be, there is difference. Just like you are existing, I am existing. There is space. So what is the difficulty? No, but actually it is beyond space and time. Transcendental. Spiritual planets, he means to say. They are beyond space. They are beyond time and space. Yes. So what does he mean? What does he mean? Guest (10): What is your point? *The point is that . . . you can explain in this way, that goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma*-bhūtaḥ (BS 5.37). Kṛṣṇa is in the Goloka planet, which is far, far away from our planet, but still He is everywhere. That is the difference. That you cannot imagine. In our material knowledge you cannot imagine that. But that is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati , tad aham aśnāmi (BG 9.26): "Anyone offering Me in devotion patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam , I eat." Now, Kṛṣṇa is living far, far away in the Goloka planet. How He can eat? That is your imagining. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, I do." That is Kṛṣṇa. Although He is far, far away, He is within your heart. That you cannot imagine, how it is possible. That is your material knowledge. But you have to accept from the statement of śāstra that although He is far, far away—within your heart. Aṇḍāntara-stha-para . . . He is within the atom also. So that you cannot imagine. That requires a different knowledge, Vedic knowledge. The material knowledge will not help you, but you cannot imagine. You have to accept Vedic knowledge. What is stated in the Vedas , that you have to accept. That's all. Otherwise there is no possibility. Therefore to understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's activities, you have to learn from Kṛṣṇa. That is Bhagavad-gītā . You cannot manufacture your knowledge. That is not . . . because you are defective—your senses are imperfect—so whatever knowledge you get through your senses, that is all imperfect. You cannot get perfect knowledge by your imperfect senses. That is not possible. Therefore the Vedic injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to learn that transcendental science you have to approach a guru who knows it. This is a different phase of knowledge. By your material calculation it will be difficult. The same thing, Kṛṣṇa says, aśnāmi : "I eat." So Kṛṣṇa is far, far away. How does He eat? It is said there that holy planets exist the . . . Who says? Who says? Who is the sayer? An imperfect person, that's all. No, it is in the *Bhāgavatam* . That's what I am saying. Oh, what is that? That holy planets exist between the lotus stem that's sprouting from navel of Kṛṣṇa. But there are many planets, millions of planets . . . (indistinct) *Yes, yes. That is all explained there. Yasyaika*-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (BS 5.48). Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya . The Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing, and with the breathing innumerable planets are coming, brahmāṇḍas are coming out. Yasya eka niśvasita-kālam atha avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ. Jagad-aṇḍa means universe, and jagad-aṇḍa-nāthaḥ means Brahmā. Millions of Brahmās living within the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. So we have to accept this Vedic knowledge. You cannot compare with your limited knowledge. That is not . . . His argument is that everything is bound by space. Yes, space is there. No, it's in the pits of the . . . Space. Space grows, Brahman. Bṛhatvād bṛhannatvāt . Brahman means the greatest. The space is considered to be the greatest. So it is not only greatest but it is expanding more and more. It is becoming greater and greater. Just like some children, they made some foam, soap. It becomes bigger, bigger, bigger. It is like that. It comes from the breathing period, but as soon as come out it becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. That is bṛhatvād bṛhannatvāt: Brahman, the greatest. A small seed of banyan tree, very small, you cannot . . . it becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, and so big tree with the leaves. You see daily how it is coming. Can you make such seed, you scientist? Can you make? Then? Why do you compare your poor knowledge with Kṛṣṇa's knowledge? That is your poor fund of knowledge. You are thinking that, "Kṛṣṇa may be like me." You can just compare the small banyan tree seed, just like a mustard seed, and it contains such a big tree; not only big tree, millions of seeds also, containing another millions of big trees. Can you make such seed? Hmm? You scientists, can you make? You tell me. Can you prepare that seed? Then what you are scientist? See Kṛṣṇa's science. Don't compare yourself with Kṛṣṇa's science even. No, one thing, if you say Goloka is infinite, we should be existing within Gokula. How is it that we are without Gokula? Yes, we are within Kṛṣṇa—therefore you are within Gokula. Kṛṣṇa is within us. *Yes. And Kṛṣṇa is without. That is Kṛṣṇa, antar bahiḥ . Antar bahiḥ . Kuntī says in her prayers that "Kṛṣṇa, You are antar bahiḥ . Still, people cannot understand. You are . . . without, You are existing, and within, You are . . . still, they are so rascal, they cannot understand." Antar bahiḥ . Kṛṣṇa is without, Kṛṣṇa is within, but they cannot see. That is their misfortune. Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35). Kṛṣṇa is within the paramāṇu , atom. Can you find out Kṛṣṇa? He says, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd . . . (BG 18.61). He is within your heart. Can you find out? Then where is your science? It is already indicated that He is here. Find out. How you can find out? The dimension of the soul is given, one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. The tip of the hair, you divide into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the dimension of the soul. How can you find out? Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīvo bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ (CC Madhya 19.140). Everything is written there. Now you find out the measurement. You cannot find out measurement of the tip of the hair. And you have to divide into ten thousand parts. Then the measurement of the soul will come. So how can you do it? But they are described in the śāstra . So go and see ārati . (end) Conversation -- December 7, 1976, Hyderabad There is no arrangement for producing vegetable? We just finished one harvest, Prabhupāda, and now the second harvest is already in the ground. So what kind of harvest? You finish and then you have to wait for six months for the second one. Now we are designing one plot for continuous . . . Hmm, so this . . . where is Tejiyas Mahārāja? So you immediately arrange for producing vegetables. Yes. No, I'm asking Tejiyas. Here is Tejiyas, here. Oh, here he is. So, why don't you do that? Yes. I'll make up the scheme today. It should be that you have continuous crop. You plant seeds one week . . . but again they have made the same mistake with these cauliflower and cabbage. Well, they mistake . . . you say, "They mistake." Who are "they"? You say you do mistake. Don't say "they." This is bureaucracy, "they." You are all "they." Anyway, whatever is done, immediately make arrangement. And this is one thing. And the other thing: I came here that there will be festival and prasādam distribution. Why this is not begun? Till yesterday there was being marriages in the city. Now, from today, the paṇḍāls are free. Because there are marriages our program will be cancelled? No, but the person who gives us the paṇḍāl . . . it's supposed to start today, Prabhupāda, their program. They have been advertising in the villages about the prasādam distribution this evening, so the stage and the śāmiyānā will be coming today and the pots are coming today. So we have all the grains and everything. We can start the prasādam distribution this evening. So you'll keep . . . come in charge. So do this also immediately. And the next is that Bhogilal wants to come here. So bring him immediately. What is the difficulty of that house? All the plastering inside is finished now. Everything, whatever is finished . . . Painting has to be done. Eh? The toilets are working, all the connections are finished, and only thing is the painting has to be done today. So painting also can be . . . without painting, we can go there. What is the wrong problem? It looks a little shabby. If we wait for one more day it will look much better. So one more day we shall wait, but tomorrow we must go there. Yes, tomorrow we can go there. So arrange for bringing Bhogilal tomorrow. Yes, tomorrow afternoon or evening we can arrange. No. Yes, so immediately arrange for that. He is very important man. If he comes, you can all mature consultation about this . . . (indistinct) . . . about managing. He is practically doing. He has one thousand acres of land. Oh, yes, it's not a joke. And he is practical businessman. So immediately . . . and besides that, he is already sympathetic. He is becoming interested more. So he can do so many things for us. He is a very nice man. So he volunteered to come here. So bring him immediately. So arrange. From tomorrow we go there. If it is not finished, then he may be given that place. I am at here. I shall stay. Or he can be given this room, I can go there. In this way . . . because the doors are not yet fitted. Yes, that's the main problem. But there are so many main problems. So at least in my side the doors are fitted. So I can go there, and he can stay here. Anyway, either there or here, arrange to bring him immediately. He will go away by the twelfth. So he may stay here at least for one week. One week. Tell him like that. Yes. And the cooking will be done by his men. Yes. Because if he comes, his cook will also come. *Oh, yes. His cook and servant, yes. So make this arrangement so that everything should be inaugurated tomorrow, not more than that. So you have to purchase vegetable and then make it big, big scheme. (chuckles) Bambharambhe laghu*-kriyā . Ārambha , very big, and action, very little. And ask some of our devotees to collect all the gobars and bring here. I want gobar. There is so much gobars scattered here and there. Take one basket and two men may go and collect all of them, put it in the sunshine. So nowadays sunshine is so bright. You can have so many things exposed to sunshine. All vitamins. So you immediately make program for vegetable, fruits, flower, surrounding this, immediately. So how Bhogilal will be brought here? In his car. In his car. So make arrangement. Either we both of us, we may stay there, or one here, one there. And the secretaries can stay here. Secretaries, as they are staying. I think one can manage that. There is no difficulty. (break) So all the devotees here, they are all required there? No. Then why . . . so the temple work is not suffering? It is. Then why you are keeping so many devotees here? The main problem now is that there were three pūjārīs , and one of them is here, and he doesn't want to go back to pūjārī work, so we have to find . . . Eh? He doesn't want to go back to do pūjārī work, so there's only two pūjārīs , and they were just complaining yesterday that it's very difficult to do so much Deity worship. So why? Why he does not want to go? He wants to go traveling for a while. So that cannot be. So traveling means you have asked him to . . .? No, I haven't asked him any . . . it's the same problem. Whenever I go somewhere there are always certain men, they want to go. No. Nobody can go without sanction. This is sense gratification, "I want to." This is not good. Actually, the temple right now is in lack of a full time manager. Mahāṁśa Mahārāja spends most of his time here, and I can see that the temple management is not going right. Yes. Not very nice. So do you require . . .? But you also do not remain here. No. Then you are not there; you are not here. Then where you are? No, all these last, last two weeks I've been working on this house, and if I'm not here then . . . like yesterday I was not here, and the workers didn't work properly. Then I made them work in the night. When I came back, I saw that they have not . . . *So that means everywhere, if you are not there, then everything is gone to hell. Then what is this management? You cannot be everywhere. That is not . . . you are not Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānām ( BG 18.61). I mean, the problem that came up in the temple, it was going on okay before, but then there was suddenly so many more devotees that came. Half of them were here, half of them were there, and they were moving around every day. So the temple managers were confused. They didn't know how much . . . how many devotees . . . No, temple . . . who is temple manager? Ānandamaya is managing now. He's very good. He can do it nicely, but he was confused because there were devotees . . . Now there is no confusion. Immediately they can go, all the devotees. They are not required. What is the use? That temple is a big, big project. Ānandamaya is not competent to handle the whole thing. He doesn't have the respect of the other members, enough. And plus I don't see him taking charge anymore. If you ask him to get something done he says, "Well . . ." He always makes some excuse. This was my experience while we were there. Who is that man? Ānandamaya. He has been here since four years, and he knows practically everybody in Hyderabad. He was working with me all the time. So then why does he not go there? Why he's here? He's not here; he's there. Oh. So the devotees may go there. They have no business here to stay, so many. Why? They can return back. Yes. Yes. Immediately. Yes. They need a head, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hmm? They need a head. A head means you have to train head. If you cut head, then how there will be head? Neither tail, neither head. Head means you have to train them, head. There is no need of so many men here. Why? Many of the men who are here are on Haṁsadūta's party. So, do they require here? I sent all the men here because Mahāṁśa promised that there would be a program lined up, but there is no program. That's why they're just . . . now they all want to go, and if they can go I can send them. They are ready to go. They don't want to stay. So? The problem is that the programs I didn't arrange, because the devotees were not regular in coming. I didn't know when they were all coming. So if I arrange a program, that means my men . . . But therefore the meeting is here. Do here now. Yes, now it can be done. But I couldn't do . . . So it can be done. Why can you . . .? What? When it will be done, do that. Yes. Don't make future promise. You do it immediately. Make program. But settle up when it will begin, when it is right. Here work is going on. That Mṛtyu, he cannot . . . no? Mūrti dāsa. Mūrti. So he cannot manage without him? He can. He has to be a little more acquainted with the people. He has to . . . He is here from the last June. He is not acquainted? He's only here since about ten days. He's not here for a long time, and he's not very forceful in making them do the work. So who will be forceful? He can be trained. I'm training him. So that training . . . everyone is under training; then who will be head? If in old age you have to be trained up, then when they will be trained up? So what is the . . . to sit down silently? That's all? We'll send the parties out . . . Make. Make immediately program, where to go. (pause) So why you are not making? Now? Here? Yes, make program immediately. Write what to do. I was thinking one bus should go immediately to Kakinagar, because that's where they want to have program there, and they are ready to arrange it, and we can collect some money immediately for the expenses which are going on now. So go. Go. So if you want, we could get one bus and few devotees can go on that. But where is this place? Kakinagar. It's in Andhra Pradesh, Visakhapatnam near Vizag. You have to make a program that on the way . . . not that we drive one thousand miles to go to one program. That's not practical. Every fifty miles or so there should be some program. That's what I mean. That whole course is . . . Andhra course is the richest area in Andhra Pradesh. Yes, like that. They give very nicely. We have had programs there, Prabhupāda, since three years. We've collected lakhs of rupees from there, and thousands of books have been distributed there. This I have heard even. You have heard, yeah. So go there. What is the . . .? Make this. They can start today? The boys are ready. They want to move, but it's just the leaders which have not decided on getting it done. So decide now. What is difficulty? *If you can give one bus they can go immediately. And another party can go to Nagpur and start arranging for the program there on the 25th. They can do nagara*-kīrtanas , book distribution, and arrange for the program on the 25th, and one bus can go to Kakinagar. So all the boys will be out and be engaged. And the boys from Hyderabad should go back to Hyderabad and get into the program there. There's so much work to be done in Hyderabad. They're suffering a lot. What about the program here? The program here doesn't need too many people. Only five, six people is enough. (aside) Close the door. Because the program here is just needing supervision. No, but I mean kīrtana , constant kīrtana , and prasādam . Well, if you want constant kīrtana , then we have to have more devotees here. Constant kīrtana ? Who says constant? Well, we have to engage the villagers. Yes. So they'll come in the evening. We cannot be always . . . Why not? *German Śrīla Prabhupāda, we want to go nagara*-saṅkīrtana to the villages and announce the program. Go. Well, go. But we cannot go because Candrodaya, he doesn't want to go. *Take Rāma*-kṣetra. Rāma-kṣetra knows everything. He knows. Take as much as possible devotees? Yes. Okay. So write what you are going to do immediately. Write. Write the names, who is going where. (indistinct) . . . they will leave? I just wrote down all the leaders. Ātmavidyā, Puṇyaśloka . . . (indistinct) . . . Rājasāra. Otherwise I can go anywhere without fixing a program. I can go to any city. If no one is going to fix the program, I can go anywhere. That I was doing already. I came here because you promised me that in every city you know people, you can fix program. So fix them and then we'll go there. Otherwise there is no need to send anyone. We'll just go there and stay in a dharmaśālā. So why not go, one or two men, to fix up program? In Nagpur, a city like Nagpur, you say you have members. Send some man who knows them from your temple. He makes an arrangement, we go there, make a nice program. Okay. So who is going to Nagpur? Write that. Vāsughoṣa and who from yours? I'll see later who goes. Anyone can go with him if he knows what to do. Someone who can speak Hindi. You cannot expect from his party anyone speaking Hindi. He has many . . . he has a good Rajasthani boy who is very good with Vāsughoṣa. He's in Hyderabad now. Who is that? *Vāsanta*-kṛṣṇa, or somebody. They can take the van? No need of van, is there? What're you going to do with van? Well, if they're going to have to arrange a program in eight days, they have to run around to see so many people, get leaflets printed, get banners painted, see Municipal people, see the police people. For that reason van is required? No, he can do everything by . . . They have extra vans here. It's not practical. I tell you, these vans . . . it's not practical to take these vans and drive them around the cities. It's very dangerous. It's not practical. It's easier to go by rickshaw. What about a small one? Yes, the small ones. I mean, it's easier to go by rickshaw. It's a fact, you know. We had this experience . . . No, there is local bus. For one, two men van running is not good. So one bus party goes immediately to Kakinagar, with maybe Ātmavidyā or whoever . . . Ātmavidyā. *Ātmavidyā can lead that party. And one party goes to Nagpur as soon as that is fixed. And to fix that program, Vāsughoṣa and Vāsanta*-kṛṣṇa can go there. Yes. Then Hyderabad temple, devotees should return to their services in Hyderabad, and Godruma should return to Deity worship. A crew of eight devotees will stay over here to do the program over here. Hmm. And Haṁsadūta will stay here. Yes. That's all. And you begin your digging. Mahārāja, you should tell the other persons who I'll have to work with that whatever I suggest, that they should do like that. But you take our ordinary laborer. But they should know. Otherwise if I come, they may object, "Mahāṁśa Swami has to tell me." Just like I told this Yuthāgraja something. He said, "I have to ask Mahāṁśa Swami." I told Mūrti something. He said, "Only if Mahāṁśa Swami says, then I can do." No, no. No, but you should make it clear when we have a meeting. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. We'll have a meeting with all the people on the farm. You don't have to . . . then I'll see that you have vegetables. And these village men or any laborer, as you proposed, if they want, they can stay. We shall give him food, shelter, as well as some remuneration. Yes. Like that, many people . . . We bring a few. I can talk to them Telugu, and I explain and see who likes. We can give them some . . . There is a . . . he will be in charge of growing this, and this way do everything. And you go to Bhogilal or phone. Bring him here and I'll transfer there. I have no objection. Immediately. There is no need of painting. No need of painting. No. Why there is use? We can manage there. Bhogilal may come, and he may be given here or wherever possible. I'll ask the carpenter to try and fix those doors by this evening in Bhogilal Patel's room. The inside doors are already finished. Only those curved doors take time. So I'll . . . So you have made . . . cut fashion? Pardon? Fashionable? Yes, it looks a little nice. All right. So that room, if it is done, it is all right. If not, this room and that room. That's all. Better bring him. He'll be very useful. Yes. That's all right. Purchase one canopy instead of renting. We shall have to continue this program. Right now it will be difficult to purchase, because we don't have enough money. What is the money? How much? We don't have enough money. It will cost at least a thousand rupees or more, the whole thing, at least a thousand, maybe more. We don't have so much money right now. So I'll pay you thousand. But . . . Okay. You pay me the rent, I'll pay you thousand. Yes. What is the rent per day? I'll get it free, without rent. Then don't purchase. That member, he has a store. He gives . . . So then what is the use of purchase? If you get free, no need of purchasing. No purchase. So make this arrangement immediately. Then go, and we shall go out. Is it clear? No. Not? Yes, it's light. I shall wash my teeth and go. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- December 7, 1976, Hyderabad There is no arrangement for producing vegetable? We just finished one harvest, Prabhupāda, and now the second harvest is already in the ground. So what kind of harvest? You finish and then you have to wait for six months for the second one. Now we are designing one plot for continuous . . . Hmm, so this . . . where is Tejiyas Mahārāja? So you immediately arrange for producing vegetables. Yes. No, I'm asking Tejiyas. Here is Tejiyas, here. Oh, here he is. So, why don't you do that? Yes. I'll make up the scheme today. It should be that you have continuous crop. You plant seeds one week . . . but again they have made the same mistake with these cauliflower and cabbage. Well, they mistake . . . you say, "They mistake." Who are "they"? You say you do mistake. Don't say "they." This is bureaucracy, "they." You are all "they." Anyway, whatever is done, immediately make arrangement. And this is one thing. And the other thing: I came here that there will be festival and prasādam distribution. Why this is not begun? Till yesterday there was being marriages in the city. Now, from today, the paṇḍāls are free. Because there are marriages our program will be cancelled? No, but the person who gives us the paṇḍāl . . . it's supposed to start today, Prabhupāda, their program. They have been advertising in the villages about the prasādam distribution this evening, so the stage and the śāmiyānā will be coming today and the pots are coming today. So we have all the grains and everything. We can start the prasādam distribution this evening. So you'll keep . . . come in charge. So do this also immediately. And the next is that Bhogilal wants to come here. So bring him immediately. What is the difficulty of that house? All the plastering inside is finished now. Everything, whatever is finished . . . Painting has to be done. Eh? The toilets are working, all the connections are finished, and only thing is the painting has to be done today. So painting also can be . . . without painting, we can go there. What is the wrong problem? It looks a little shabby. If we wait for one more day it will look much better. So one more day we shall wait, but tomorrow we must go there. Yes, tomorrow we can go there. So arrange for bringing Bhogilal tomorrow. Yes, tomorrow afternoon or evening we can arrange. No. Yes, so immediately arrange for that. He is very important man. If he comes, you can all mature consultation about this . . . (indistinct) . . . about managing. He is practically doing. He has one thousand acres of land. Oh, yes, it's not a joke. And he is practical businessman. So immediately . . . and besides that, he is already sympathetic. He is becoming interested more. So he can do so many things for us. He is a very nice man. So he volunteered to come here. So bring him immediately. So arrange. From tomorrow we go there. If it is not finished, then he may be given that place. I am at here. I shall stay. Or he can be given this room, I can go there. In this way . . . because the doors are not yet fitted. Yes, that's the main problem. But there are so many main problems. So at least in my side the doors are fitted. So I can go there, and he can stay here. Anyway, either there or here, arrange to bring him immediately. He will go away by the twelfth. So he may stay here at least for one week. One week. Tell him like that. Yes. And the cooking will be done by his men. Yes. Because if he comes, his cook will also come. *Oh, yes. His cook and servant, yes. So make this arrangement so that everything should be inaugurated tomorrow, not more than that. So you have to purchase vegetable and then make it big, big scheme. (chuckles) Bambharambhe laghu*-kriyā . Ārambha , very big, and action, very little. And ask some of our devotees to collect all the gobars and bring here. I want gobar. There is so much gobars scattered here and there. Take one basket and two men may go and collect all of them, put it in the sunshine. So nowadays sunshine is so bright. You can have so many things exposed to sunshine. All vitamins. So you immediately make program for vegetable, fruits, flower, surrounding this, immediately. So how Bhogilal will be brought here? In his car. In his car. So make arrangement. Either we both of us, we may stay there, or one here, one there. And the secretaries can stay here. Secretaries, as they are staying. I think one can manage that. There is no difficulty. (break) So all the devotees here, they are all required there? No. Then why . . . so the temple work is not suffering? It is. Then why you are keeping so many devotees here? The main problem now is that there were three pūjārīs , and one of them is here, and he doesn't want to go back to pūjārī work, so we have to find . . . Eh? He doesn't want to go back to do pūjārī work, so there's only two pūjārīs , and they were just complaining yesterday that it's very difficult to do so much Deity worship. So why? Why he does not want to go? He wants to go traveling for a while. So that cannot be. So traveling means you have asked him to . . .? No, I haven't asked him any . . . it's the same problem. Whenever I go somewhere there are always certain men, they want to go. No. Nobody can go without sanction. This is sense gratification, "I want to." This is not good. Actually, the temple right now is in lack of a full time manager. Mahāṁśa Mahārāja spends most of his time here, and I can see that the temple management is not going right. Yes. Not very nice. So do you require . . .? But you also do not remain here. No. Then you are not there; you are not here. Then where you are? No, all these last, last two weeks I've been working on this house, and if I'm not here then . . . like yesterday I was not here, and the workers didn't work properly. Then I made them work in the night. When I came back, I saw that they have not . . . *So that means everywhere, if you are not there, then everything is gone to hell. Then what is this management? You cannot be everywhere. That is not . . . you are not Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānām ( BG 18.61). I mean, the problem that came up in the temple, it was going on okay before, but then there was suddenly so many more devotees that came. Half of them were here, half of them were there, and they were moving around every day. So the temple managers were confused. They didn't know how much . . . how many devotees . . . No, temple . . . who is temple manager? Ānandamaya is managing now. He's very good. He can do it nicely, but he was confused because there were devotees . . . Now there is no confusion. Immediately they can go, all the devotees. They are not required. What is the use? That temple is a big, big project. Ānandamaya is not competent to handle the whole thing. He doesn't have the respect of the other members, enough. And plus I don't see him taking charge anymore. If you ask him to get something done he says, "Well . . ." He always makes some excuse. This was my experience while we were there. Who is that man? Ānandamaya. He has been here since four years, and he knows practically everybody in Hyderabad. He was working with me all the time. So then why does he not go there? Why he's here? He's not here; he's there. Oh. So the devotees may go there. They have no business here to stay, so many. Why? They can return back. Yes. Yes. Immediately. Yes. They need a head, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hmm? They need a head. A head means you have to train head. If you cut head, then how there will be head? Neither tail, neither head. Head means you have to train them, head. There is no need of so many men here. Why? Many of the men who are here are on Haṁsadūta's party. So, do they require here? I sent all the men here because Mahāṁśa promised that there would be a program lined up, but there is no program. That's why they're just . . . now they all want to go, and if they can go I can send them. They are ready to go. They don't want to stay. So? The problem is that the programs I didn't arrange, because the devotees were not regular in coming. I didn't know when they were all coming. So if I arrange a program, that means my men . . . But therefore the meeting is here. Do here now. Yes, now it can be done. But I couldn't do . . . So it can be done. Why can you . . .? What? When it will be done, do that. Yes. Don't make future promise. You do it immediately. Make program. But settle up when it will begin, when it is right. Here work is going on. That Mṛtyu, he cannot . . . no? Mūrti dāsa. Mūrti. So he cannot manage without him? He can. He has to be a little more acquainted with the people. He has to . . . He is here from the last June. He is not acquainted? He's only here since about ten days. He's not here for a long time, and he's not very forceful in making them do the work. So who will be forceful? He can be trained. I'm training him. So that training . . . everyone is under training; then who will be head? If in old age you have to be trained up, then when they will be trained up? So what is the . . . to sit down silently? That's all? We'll send the parties out . . . Make. Make immediately program, where to go. (pause) So why you are not making? Now? Here? Yes, make program immediately. Write what to do. I was thinking one bus should go immediately to Kakinagar, because that's where they want to have program there, and they are ready to arrange it, and we can collect some money immediately for the expenses which are going on now. So go. Go. So if you want, we could get one bus and few devotees can go on that. But where is this place? Kakinagar. It's in Andhra Pradesh, Visakhapatnam near Vizag. You have to make a program that on the way . . . not that we drive one thousand miles to go to one program. That's not practical. Every fifty miles or so there should be some program. That's what I mean. That whole course is . . . Andhra course is the richest area in Andhra Pradesh. Yes, like that. They give very nicely. We have had programs there, Prabhupāda, since three years. We've collected lakhs of rupees from there, and thousands of books have been distributed there. This I have heard even. You have heard, yeah. So go there. What is the . . .? Make this. They can start today? The boys are ready. They want to move, but it's just the leaders which have not decided on getting it done. So decide now. What is difficulty? *If you can give one bus they can go immediately. And another party can go to Nagpur and start arranging for the program there on the 25th. They can do nagara*-kīrtanas , book distribution, and arrange for the program on the 25th, and one bus can go to Kakinagar. So all the boys will be out and be engaged. And the boys from Hyderabad should go back to Hyderabad and get into the program there. There's so much work to be done in Hyderabad. They're suffering a lot. What about the program here? The program here doesn't need too many people. Only five, six people is enough. (aside) Close the door. Because the program here is just needing supervision. No, but I mean kīrtana , constant kīrtana , and prasādam . Well, if you want constant kīrtana , then we have to have more devotees here. Constant kīrtana ? Who says constant? Well, we have to engage the villagers. Yes. So they'll come in the evening. We cannot be always . . . Why not? *German Śrīla Prabhupāda, we want to go nagara*-saṅkīrtana to the villages and announce the program. Go. Well, go. But we cannot go because Candrodaya, he doesn't want to go. *Take Rāma*-kṣetra. Rāma-kṣetra knows everything. He knows. Take as much as possible devotees? Yes. Okay. So write what you are going to do immediately. Write. Write the names, who is going where. (indistinct) . . . they will leave? I just wrote down all the leaders. Ātmavidyā, Puṇyaśloka . . . (indistinct) . . . Rājasāra. Otherwise I can go anywhere without fixing a program. I can go to any city. If no one is going to fix the program, I can go anywhere. That I was doing already. I came here because you promised me that in every city you know people, you can fix program. So fix them and then we'll go there. Otherwise there is no need to send anyone. We'll just go there and stay in a dharmaśālā. So why not go, one or two men, to fix up program? In Nagpur, a city like Nagpur, you say you have members. Send some man who knows them from your temple. He makes an arrangement, we go there, make a nice program. Okay. So who is going to Nagpur? Write that. Vāsughoṣa and who from yours? I'll see later who goes. Anyone can go with him if he knows what to do. Someone who can speak Hindi. You cannot expect from his party anyone speaking Hindi. He has many . . . he has a good Rajasthani boy who is very good with Vāsughoṣa. He's in Hyderabad now. Who is that? *Vāsanta*-kṛṣṇa, or somebody. They can take the van? No need of van, is there? What're you going to do with van? Well, if they're going to have to arrange a program in eight days, they have to run around to see so many people, get leaflets printed, get banners painted, see Municipal people, see the police people. For that reason van is required? No, he can do everything by . . . They have extra vans here. It's not practical. I tell you, these vans . . . it's not practical to take these vans and drive them around the cities. It's very dangerous. It's not practical. It's easier to go by rickshaw. What about a small one? Yes, the small ones. I mean, it's easier to go by rickshaw. It's a fact, you know. We had this experience . . . No, there is local bus. For one, two men van running is not good. So one bus party goes immediately to Kakinagar, with maybe Ātmavidyā or whoever . . . Ātmavidyā. *Ātmavidyā can lead that party. And one party goes to Nagpur as soon as that is fixed. And to fix that program, Vāsughoṣa and Vāsanta*-kṛṣṇa can go there. Yes. Then Hyderabad temple, devotees should return to their services in Hyderabad, and Godruma should return to Deity worship. A crew of eight devotees will stay over here to do the program over here. Hmm. And Haṁsadūta will stay here. Yes. That's all. And you begin your digging. Mahārāja, you should tell the other persons who I'll have to work with that whatever I suggest, that they should do like that. But you take our ordinary laborer. But they should know. Otherwise if I come, they may object, "Mahāṁśa Swami has to tell me." Just like I told this Yuthāgraja something. He said, "I have to ask Mahāṁśa Swami." I told Mūrti something. He said, "Only if Mahāṁśa Swami says, then I can do." No, no. No, but you should make it clear when we have a meeting. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. We'll have a meeting with all the people on the farm. You don't have to . . . then I'll see that you have vegetables. And these village men or any laborer, as you proposed, if they want, they can stay. We shall give him food, shelter, as well as some remuneration. Yes. Like that, many people . . . We bring a few. I can talk to them Telugu, and I explain and see who likes. We can give them some . . . There is a . . . he will be in charge of growing this, and this way do everything. And you go to Bhogilal or phone. Bring him here and I'll transfer there. I have no objection. Immediately. There is no need of painting. No need of painting. No. Why there is use? We can manage there. Bhogilal may come, and he may be given here or wherever possible. I'll ask the carpenter to try and fix those doors by this evening in Bhogilal Patel's room. The inside doors are already finished. Only those curved doors take time. So I'll . . . So you have made . . . cut fashion? Pardon? Fashionable? Yes, it looks a little nice. All right. So that room, if it is done, it is all right. If not, this room and that room. That's all. Better bring him. He'll be very useful. Yes. That's all right. Purchase one canopy instead of renting. We shall have to continue this program. Right now it will be difficult to purchase, because we don't have enough money. What is the money? How much? We don't have enough money. It will cost at least a thousand rupees or more, the whole thing, at least a thousand, maybe more. We don't have so much money right now. So I'll pay you thousand. But . . . Okay. You pay me the rent, I'll pay you thousand. Yes. What is the rent per day? I'll get it free, without rent. Then don't purchase. That member, he has a store. He gives . . . So then what is the use of purchase? If you get free, no need of purchasing. No purchase. So make this arrangement immediately. Then go, and we shall go out. Is it clear? No. Not? Yes, it's light. I shall wash my teeth and go. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- December 9, 1976, Hyderabad (Preparation for Gita Pratisthana) *. . . jail, it is not due to overpopulation. It is due to overcriminality. Similarly, whenever there is scarcity of supply or scarcity of food, it is not due to overpopulation. It is due to overcriminality or over*-sinful activities. Due to over-sinful activities, not overpopulation. It is a bogus theory. That is stated, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān ( BG 16.19). Those who are devils, who are demons . . . What was that verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Tān aham. Tān. For the demons. Demons and godless people must be suffering. You cannot make a solution. You cannot surpass the law of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). There is enough water in the ocean, but still you are suffering for scarcity of water. Why? What is the answer? Their answer or my answer? *What their answer, these rascals? Just like in Europe there is scarcity of water, they proposed to import, rascal. But there are so many oceans. So where is the scarcity of water? But why you cannot use it? Unless there is intervention by the nature's law you cannot use it. Therefore you are completely under the laws of nature. Nature will punish you, nature will reward you, according to your acts. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi, ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). You are falsely thinking that you are independent. A slight deviation from the laws of nature will put you into difficulty. Immediately there are. You can close this door. (break) . . . population. In any case, one can be punished when the nature's supply is restricted. (break) It's from the Third Chapter. *So in order to release ourself from the sinful . . . reaction of sinful activity, we must perform yajña. And in this age the easiest process of yajña is saṅkīrtana*-yajña. (break) So what are the problem? Under "problems" are . . . there are some general problems, such as taxes. Hmm? Taxes. Taxation. Hmm, taxation. So that is . . . you have created problem. When you transgress the laws of nature, this . . . there is shortage of supply. And the government, on this plea they will tax to mitigate your miseries. Actually they will not be able to mitigate your miseries, but on the plea of your miseries they will levy taxes and divide amongst themselves. So this is another way of punishment. Because the government is your government, because you are rascal, so you elect some, another rascal. And they invent ways of rascaldom to mitigate your miseries. To avoid taxation means you become good man and you select your ruler, good men. Then there will be no taxation. (break) Other problems? Hmm? Other problems? Yes. Race relations. Race relations? That is also ignorance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa is original father. Where is the question of race? You are all brothers. (long pause) So, all problems solved? As far as I'm concerned. Hmm? I can't think of any more major problems. I remember from . . . Problem . . . as long as you have got this material body you'll have problem. One after another. Therefore the best solution is to go back home, back to Godhead. We have to convince them that they have problems, because they think that they're enjoying. That is their foolishness. Therefore they require education. They don't know of the real standard of enjoyment. How they can know? There is no understanding. Mūḍha. (long pause) To solve all these problems, therefore, there must be a class of men, brāhmaṇas. Not a class; a section of people must become brāhmaṇas. And all other sections should consult them and live as kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, śūdras. (pause) Then? It is finished now? No. Well, we've solved all the problems. Hmm? We've solved all the problems. Now we want to convince this Vinoba Bhave to support us? Yes. So can you see what is the position, my quarters? Well, Mūrti said your side is fit for moving into. But if they have . . . see, Bhogilal Patel is not here yet, so I thought if we wait at least till tomorrow, if you want, then that will give them the chance to get a few more doors on, and then, if Bhogilal comes tomorrow, then we can move in the morning. That's all right. See, they have all the wood now for the doors, and they need one more day and then all the doors will be fitted in the whole house. So do that tomorrow. And that will be a lot safer too. Security reasons, it will be a lot better. Tomorrow morning we can go. Yes. That's all right. (break) . . . śuddhyed sattva, purify your existence. (end) Conversation -- December 9, 1976, Hyderabad (Preparation for Gita Pratisthana) *. . . jail, it is not due to overpopulation. It is due to overcriminality. Similarly, whenever there is scarcity of supply or scarcity of food, it is not due to overpopulation. It is due to overcriminality or over*-sinful activities. Due to over-sinful activities, not overpopulation. It is a bogus theory. That is stated, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān ( BG 16.19). Those who are devils, who are demons . . . What was that verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Tān aham. Tān. For the demons. Demons and godless people must be suffering. You cannot make a solution. You cannot surpass the law of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). There is enough water in the ocean, but still you are suffering for scarcity of water. Why? What is the answer? Their answer or my answer? *What their answer, these rascals? Just like in Europe there is scarcity of water, they proposed to import, rascal. But there are so many oceans. So where is the scarcity of water? But why you cannot use it? Unless there is intervention by the nature's law you cannot use it. Therefore you are completely under the laws of nature. Nature will punish you, nature will reward you, according to your acts. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi, ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). You are falsely thinking that you are independent. A slight deviation from the laws of nature will put you into difficulty. Immediately there are. You can close this door. (break) . . . population. In any case, one can be punished when the nature's supply is restricted. (break) It's from the Third Chapter. *So in order to release ourself from the sinful . . . reaction of sinful activity, we must perform yajña. And in this age the easiest process of yajña is saṅkīrtana*-yajña. (break) So what are the problem? Under "problems" are . . . there are some general problems, such as taxes. Hmm? Taxes. Taxation. Hmm, taxation. So that is . . . you have created problem. When you transgress the laws of nature, this . . . there is shortage of supply. And the government, on this plea they will tax to mitigate your miseries. Actually they will not be able to mitigate your miseries, but on the plea of your miseries they will levy taxes and divide amongst themselves. So this is another way of punishment. Because the government is your government, because you are rascal, so you elect some, another rascal. And they invent ways of rascaldom to mitigate your miseries. To avoid taxation means you become good man and you select your ruler, good men. Then there will be no taxation. (break) Other problems? Hmm? Other problems? Yes. Race relations. Race relations? That is also ignorance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa is original father. Where is the question of race? You are all brothers. (long pause) So, all problems solved? As far as I'm concerned. Hmm? I can't think of any more major problems. I remember from . . . Problem . . . as long as you have got this material body you'll have problem. One after another. Therefore the best solution is to go back home, back to Godhead. We have to convince them that they have problems, because they think that they're enjoying. That is their foolishness. Therefore they require education. They don't know of the real standard of enjoyment. How they can know? There is no understanding. Mūḍha. (long pause) To solve all these problems, therefore, there must be a class of men, brāhmaṇas. Not a class; a section of people must become brāhmaṇas. And all other sections should consult them and live as kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, śūdras. (pause) Then? It is finished now? No. Well, we've solved all the problems. Hmm? We've solved all the problems. Now we want to convince this Vinoba Bhave to support us? Yes. So can you see what is the position, my quarters? Well, Mūrti said your side is fit for moving into. But if they have . . . see, Bhogilal Patel is not here yet, so I thought if we wait at least till tomorrow, if you want, then that will give them the chance to get a few more doors on, and then, if Bhogilal comes tomorrow, then we can move in the morning. That's all right. See, they have all the wood now for the doors, and they need one more day and then all the doors will be fitted in the whole house. So do that tomorrow. And that will be a lot safer too. Security reasons, it will be a lot better. Tomorrow morning we can go. Yes. That's all right. (break) . . . śuddhyed sattva, purify your existence. (end) Conversation -- December 10, 1976, Hyderabad (Conversation on farm management) *Make very nice, palatable prasādam . We shall spend for that. Why miserly? There is no need of miserly. You are going to earn money by agricultural produce, so how the money will be utilized? It will be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. By prasādam , by chanting, by drama, somehow or other bring them. That is our mission. Congregational chanting. Always festival, and we shall spend for that. Immediately arrange. If there is scarcity of money, I shall pay, but from . . . bring them, somehow or other. Tomorrow I want to see at least 500 men. Make arrangement like that. I came here to see that, not to sit down in a room peacefully. So there also we shall inform the meeting that we want to propagate this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement town to town, village to village, by attracting them with musical demonstration of saṅkīrtana , dramatic play, movie, prasādam . Somehow or other they should come to the temple, to the paṇḍāl , and congregationally chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , hear Bhagavad-gītā , Bhāgavatam . For this purpose, whatever expenditure is required, that you should collect and spend. This is the scheme of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. You must come here, question, understand, and vigorous propaganda should be inaugurated town to town, village to village. Those who are educated, to them distribution of literature. The school, college, library, institution, university, by scholarly presentation. That is wanted. What is that? . . . (indistinct) Oh. Doesn't matter. Understand the idea? Oh, yes. *To attract them to really nice prasādam , palatable food, we shall spend. And we shall earn also by literature, produce, as they're earning. Where is the difficulty? We shall take contribution from rich persons. We shall earn ourself, and spend it to give them very nice prasādam . Gradually when they come, when you engage them in producing their own food, own shelter, own cloth . . . this should be organized. And they'll be glad. As soon as they understand, they will be glad to do. And they will stop all this nonsense: illicit sex and meat*-eating. Then their life will be purified, and they'll make more and more advancement in this path. That is perfection. That you want. Is it clear or not? Oh, yes. *Yes? This is our mission. If you give them very nice, palatable prasādam . . . they go to hotel from miles together to take some palatable foodstuff—restaurant, hotel. And we cannot give nice kṛṣṇa*-prasādam ? Why? Why you cannot give? Arrange like that, first class. Simply for eating they will come. Immediately do it. I have a question, whether we should always give them khicuṛi or whether we should . . . Give them nice prasādam by which they are attracted. It doesn't matter khicuṛi, purī, kachorī, lāḍdu . Whatever they are attracted, we must give. Halavā . *Whatever that will attract them. That I want. Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . Don't waste; give them nice, palatable foodstuff. Give them one finest kachorī , one nice samosā , two purīs , they will be very glad. Make very, very nice prasādam . What is this rubbish, the dog cannot eat even? They have done a great mistake, all rascals. I am very angry. I say that if you have no money, I'll spend, I will give you money. Why should you make such tenth class, and no food at all. It is to be thrown away. Simply waste of grains and energy. Engage nice professional cook, prepare nice foodstuff. I shall spend for that if you have no money. Gentlemen who are coming immediately should be offered some prasādam , "Please come here, take: purī, kachorī, samosā ." Arrangement should be like that. The doctors came, he comes out of love, but there is no prasādam . Huh? What is this? Sorry? The doctor comes, but we could not supply him prasādam at 12 o'clock. Today? Not today, the other day. Oh. Prasādam is not yet ready, you also said. After eating I have no . . . not yet ready. What is this? At 2 o'clock? As soon as they want. The Vṛndāvana also, the same thing I told that. Now they are doing? Prasādam , as soon as they want, they'll must feed some prasādam according to the position of the person. We shall spend for that. I am not hesitating to spend money. Why the arrangement is lacking? Immediately arrange for theirs and invite them. Don't make it childish. Where are the leaders? They are now engaged there? Pardon me? Our leaders are engaged there? At the kīrtana ? Huh. Mahāṁśa is there. I don't know where Haṁsadūta is. So anyway, this is my instruction. We have written and discussed and go. And I want to see tomorrow many thousand people. If you cannot make attractive, why they will come? Then it is failure. Make attractive. Whatever money is required, I shall pay. Simply theory will not help. Make such prasādam as people will come and be mad after it. Yes, we can . . . Just explain. You have taken in writing? It's on tape. So go and discuss. They must be attracted. I see. Otherwise it is failure. (break) . . . who came, but . . . You are satisfied today? No. Then? No. The people also, there was no advertisement of today there would be a program. So whatever it is required, you do it. So on tomorrow, I will do the advertisement and show them . . . Give them very, very first class prasādam . Yes. They will come for the tongue. Yes. Today the ḍāl is . . . they liked it very spicy. That they like, I do not know what they like. But you prepare they should come and eat. Yes. I do not know what they like. There is a lot of sabjī in the ḍāl also, today, and it's hot. They like it. Whatever it may be, whatever they like, the villagers, you prepare. If you have no money, I shall pay money. Okay. But attract them. They will come here to eat, "Oh, very nice thing." That is wanted. I made this movement successful simply by Love Feast. They did not come to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. They came for Love Feast. From very beginning, when I was in 26 Second Avenue, every Sunday I was giving nice foodstuff, at least 200 men. Daily at least more than fifteen, twenty. I was cooking myself. That is the beginning of my movement. The cāpāṭis with Kīrtanānanda, first of all he was taking one and two, then twelve. (laughter) There was another boy . . . Stryādhīśa. *Stryādhīśa. Twenty*-two cāpāṭis . (laughter) "Stryādhīśa, can I give you?" "Yes." I gave him four. Finished. "Stryādhīśa, can I give you?" "Yes." (laughter) Very nice boy. He was eating twenty-two. One day there was no money, so he immediately went and came after some time with some money. "And where did you go?" The shoe booth. He polished shoes and brought some money. (laughs) (laughter) In this way, this was developed. Give them prasādam , nice prasādam . Any gentleman comes, immediately there must be some prasādam . Engage first-class cook. Spend money; don't be a miserly. If you have no money, I will pay. So long I am living, I shall go on paying. You don't be miserly. Bring devotees for eating and then chanting, then cinema, then lecture. In this way you have to develop. Not that people will come, "Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is there, let us go there." They will not come. What do they know about Hare Kṛṣṇa? They will come, "Oh, there is nice, good prasādam distributed." Some people I know, they said that yesterday the prasādam was not nice, and there was . . . *Not nice—it is not eatable even by the dogs! But you are less than the dogs if you prepare such thing. I was surprised. You allowed a sweeper to cook. I was surprised. We have distribution prasādam , not dog's food. Such rascals are here. You do not know. I do not wish to discuss anymore on this point. You have murdered the whole thing in two days. Now if possible, bring them, give them first*-class prasādam , very palatable. Foodstuff means even one has no appetite, he'll eat. That is food. Not that even one has got appetite, he'll forget. That is not food. So do like that, and for money produce, use cane, sugarcane, rice. We shall spend for that. Don't spoil money, but do like businessman. He invests money, he gets a return. Spend it for Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. There is no question of becoming a miser. I never did it. When I have got a farthing, I want to spend it, immediately spend. Oh, what I have made this BBT? Immediately fifty percent for printing and fifty percent for spreading this. Why don't you understand what I want to do? So whatever is done is done; now do it very nicely. I want to see at least 1,000 men coming from the villages. There are 20,000 men here. You cannot attract them? Can we announce that you will give darśana on the stage for five minutes? Huh? Can we announce . . .? Nobody will come for my darśana , but if you want, I'll go. Yes. That is not very difficult task. Because they are all very anxious to see you, because they've all been . . . All right, I shall go. What is that? The difficulty is I would have gone very gladly, but they do not understand my language, neither Hindi nor English. It can be translated in Telugu. Then I shall go. I shall go. Yes. I shall go. I shall speak. Give them very nice food. From tomorrow I will . . . if there are rascals, you bring. I will pay nice cook. Make varieties, very palatable food. Kichranna, puṣpānna , rice, there are so many preparations. Paramānna . You do not make paramānna, kichranna, puṣpānna. There are varieties of rice preparation. They know, the southern people, with curd, yogurt . . . Tamarind. *Eh? Tamarind, so many preparations. So make like that. Why dog eating? They are not dogs. You cannot expect, because you are giving some dog*-eatable food, they will come. There must be one first-class cook, and all our men should learn. There's no need of simply keeping unduly, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa," and sleeping. We don't want such men. Make a show. And do not know anything how to preach. Useless. The householder, the women should be engaged in cooking. Their children should be gathered together. One man . . . I have said many times, all the children should be taken in a room by one woman, and others should be engaged in the cooking department. I have seen it. Your country, America, when they go to church, all the childrens are gathered together in a room. Is it not? Yes. And one or two men take care. And others, they go. Similarly, children they must have, so . . . not that everyone is children busy, "I cannot do." They cannot do if they are busy with children. So what is the use of keeping such householders? Let them live outside, earn their money. Woman business is to cleanse, to cut the vegetables, to cook. What is this? They're simply busy with the children? And they have started their mission for maintaining some children and useless women. You should organize. Rādhikāra pakka anna vividha byañjana. All the gopīs, they are engaged for cooking for Kṛṣṇa. Mother Yaśodā will call them, "You young girls, you can cook very nicely." Do you understand Bengali? No. Rādhikā with Her friends, they are cooking. And they cook so nicely that parama ānande kṛṣṇa korena bhojana : with great pleasure Kṛṣṇa is eating. And that we have to distribute. Not dog's food. You do not know what is the purpose of this mission. Don't do it. Here is a good chance; *don't spoil it. Produce huge. Make profit. You spend for Kṛṣṇa. Train all devotees how to cook. All women. Don't distribute dog's eatable things. Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . *Kṛṣṇa is taking with great pleasure. That prasādam you have to distribute. Not that dog is rejecting and you have to distribute that prasādam . Why do you think like that? This prasādam , this so*-called, rubbish thing which is rejected by dog, and you are offering to the human being. You do it. If you have no money I shall pay. There is no question of scarcity of money. Don't spoil money, but spend for real purpose, that's all. And you arrange for huge agricultural. Whatever is required, water, we shall arrange for that. Labor, everything. And if you perform yajña , there will be rain. Anyway, I asked you the other day to fill up the tank. What is the difficulty? Which tank? That big tank. Well. Big well. Just here. The one that's been pumped empty. Anyway, the big empty one that we . . . But you were surprised. You do not know that we have got a big well here? The one that we drink water from? The big square one. Behind the house. Why it is empty? Hmm? Fill it for what, Prabhupāda? Why the well is empty? There is no water. He's surprised, as if dropping from the sky. You do not know that well? It's just a tank. Tank, yes. Why it is empty? Because I didn't know what purpose it will serve by filling it. Filling it, we shall pump and distribute water. You shall fit pipes, and pump water and distribute to the field, so there will be no scarcity of water, and produce. What it was meant, you do not know? No, right now, that field does not need water to . . . Then why you are not growing there something? The paddy is drying over there, Prabhupāda. Huh? The paddy, the rice, is drying. No, no, there are so many other fields. Why they are empty? Oh, we have to go and do boring wells and . . . Therefore that means water supply. Yes, that's what I have to arrange now. Hah. So why . . .? When you will arrange? Arrange it immediately. Yes, before . . . And that is also one of the water pool to solve water problem, the tank. Do you follow what I say? Yes. You fill up the tank, and by pumping through pipe, you distribute water. The viaducts are already there, troughs. Yes. *If we have got water filled up in that tank, we can water so many lands. We shall spend for that. We shall . . . pipe line, pumping. If you have so much land we can produce gold. But you have no brain. Produce gold, get money and spend it for Kṛṣṇa. This is wanted. Not simply planning and talking. The world is suffering for want of right planning. Otherwise, there is no question of suffering. Pūrṇam idam , complete it is, everything complete. That is the Vedic version. Why it is incomplete? Incomplete means these rascals. Supplying the necessities of life. (break) Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Kṛṣṇa does not want to see that we are starving for want of food. That He does not want to see. But because you have come to the material world, you have to work hard. Then you'll get your food. That is the material world. Śarīra*-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ ( BG 3.8), Kṛṣṇa says. Very . . . if you do not work, then you cannot get food. Simply work together. Sarva-kāma-dughā mahī (SB 1.10.4). And you get from the land. You have got land. You get anything from the land. The land must be moist, then you get everything. That we want to show. Hmm? What do you think? Land is . . . Oh, yes. Eh? You are intelligent, you . . . eh? You are the intelligent one, Prabhupāda. Now, what do you think this idea? No, it's wonderful. Yes, do that. In Vṛndāvana I saw one bull, just goes around in the circle all day and makes the water come up on these little catchers. And then it goes . . . Yes, so many means there are, watering. The whole field. *Yes. People have lost the program. These rascals, they draw all these men to manufacture Goodyear tire and eat stone. This is going on. Modern man, they draw all these man, "Come on, I shall pay you 20 rupees daily. Prepare Goodyear tire, and eat stone. Take paper. Purchase stone. That's all. This is going on. What brain they will have? Twenty rupees they get, and they spend ten rupees for wine and five rupees for cigarette, and fooding, say five rupees. No ghee , no milk. Soul*-killing civilization. And against this soul-killing civilization, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hmm, what you wanted to say? This . . . your Dr. Ghosh, where he is staying . . . Mm. We were there this afternoon for a program, and all their land is so green, and they are growing vegetables by a patch no bigger than this mattress that you are sitting. They are working one, planting, then growing another. Just a small piece, then planting. Yes. They have some way for the water to go to . . . You should do like that here, in our land. Do like that. If they can do here, some few miles away . . . We can do. . . . you can do it. Do it immediately. See how they are doing. So much land, why it should remain vacant? So combinedly immediately begin. Hmm? So how long you are staying here? Till Sunday morning. Oh. So your business is complete or . . . No, almost. So, give him all help. Yes, people are . . . He is doing very nice there, and he'll do very nice. One thing I thought it would be good if Your Divine Grace would write a letter making him the GBC, so that he can act with full authority. I'll give full authority. Write letter; I shall sign. Yes. You have full authority. Write letter, I'll sign. Yes. By your talking, I'm also thinking we should have a farm in Germany. I know . . . *Oh, yes. Why not? Everywhere. I myself, when I go to the farm, I forget whether it is India or Germany or France. I forget. The land is there. Sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī . We get everything from that. I have several times said that why they make this distinction, "This is France," "This is India," "This is . . ."? Everywhere the God's land. Why these rascals make division, I do not understand. Every land belongs to Kṛṣṇa, and you are sons of Kṛṣṇa. Let us live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. All rascals, mūḍha . There is rain now and then fall in Europe? Yes, now it's very much. Now it's too late. Hmm? Now it's too late. I mean, it wasn't there, but now it's so much. Hmm. But God is giving hint, that if "Rascal, it is in My hand. I can keep you in starvation to death." The man is dull brain. Anyway, I am anxious to learn why so many people are suffering. They have become all gray. Throughout whole France I saw. From Paris to Valencay I went. Gray. These people are not lazy, but there was no water. They utilize every inch land for agricultural purpose. At least I saw in France. Then maybe everywhere in Europe. They are not lazy fellow. There is organization, government organization, here. People, they . . . anyway, let us show some example. Immediately make program. You have seen, yes? Yes. And you are expert. Do it immediately. If there is requires some money, we shall pay. Fill up. What is the difficulty in filling up this tank? I'm not still understanding which tank you are . . . because there are many tanks . . . . . . (indistinct) . . . it's empty. No one ever swim in here. We took out water to water the fields. So why it is empty? Have it filled up. How to fill? It has to come by itself. The water comes from the recuperation from the soil, so it is not in our hands to fill it. It just comes by itself slowly. It takes six days. If we empty the well it takes takes six days to fill it. No, no. By the . . . by digging a well or something you cannot . . . If we do a boring, then that's . . . the well can be filled. We have a pump and we can fill it. But now, as it is, it's fifty feet deep. Why not make boring? That is my plan. That is what I was telling . . . Why plan? Why do it now? Yes. Now . . . Keep it always filled up. He's saying he has the money. Yes, I was thinking before you go, we should get the rigs coming here and putting on the whole . . . Yes. Tomorrow we should go to that place. Yes. It's the first business. We should go to that place and have him come, start the pool. Water required. Fill up with water and distribute water and produce, huge quantity, whatever can be produced. Sugarcane, rice, these are very valuable commodity at the present moment. Produce. And sugarcane means the upper portion will be the food for the cow. Even rice. Even . . . oh, yes. Very, very practic . . . we want some, same, food. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Bhūtāni means both animal and men. Animals should be well fed. Not only human being, but animal also. Otherwise, how he'll work? Don't use tractor. Use this bulls. Otherwise there will be a problem, how to engage the bulls. Yes. Engage them for transport, for plowing. We should not get a tractor? No. When you have got bulls, why should you get . . .? We have only 8 pairs of bulls. Yes, and other bulls have been eaten up. Now we stop that eating. No, if you need, you can purchase tractor. But as far as possible try to avoid, and engage the bulls. Otherwise it will be problems. The Europeans have invented tractors, and the bull is a problem. Therefore they must be sent to the slaughterhouse. So we can not create that problem. How the bull should be utilized? They should be used for transport and plowing. (background noise) What is this turmoil? I think they are distributing prasādam . *Now they have finished the slide*-show, and they are sitting down for prasādam . All right. Go and see it is done nicely. Announce that, "Tomorrow we shall prepare such and such nice preparations. Please, you are especially invited." In this way attract. (end) Conversation -- December 10, 1976, Hyderabad (Conversation on farm management) *Make very nice, palatable prasādam . We shall spend for that. Why miserly? There is no need of miserly. You are going to earn money by agricultural produce, so how the money will be utilized? It will be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. By prasādam , by chanting, by drama, somehow or other bring them. That is our mission. Congregational chanting. Always festival, and we shall spend for that. Immediately arrange. If there is scarcity of money, I shall pay, but from . . . bring them, somehow or other. Tomorrow I want to see at least 500 men. Make arrangement like that. I came here to see that, not to sit down in a room peacefully. So there also we shall inform the meeting that we want to propagate this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement town to town, village to village, by attracting them with musical demonstration of saṅkīrtana , dramatic play, movie, prasādam . Somehow or other they should come to the temple, to the paṇḍāl , and congregationally chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , hear Bhagavad-gītā , Bhāgavatam . For this purpose, whatever expenditure is required, that you should collect and spend. This is the scheme of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. You must come here, question, understand, and vigorous propaganda should be inaugurated town to town, village to village. Those who are educated, to them distribution of literature. The school, college, library, institution, university, by scholarly presentation. That is wanted. What is that? . . . (indistinct) Oh. Doesn't matter. Understand the idea? Oh, yes. *To attract them to really nice prasādam , palatable food, we shall spend. And we shall earn also by literature, produce, as they're earning. Where is the difficulty? We shall take contribution from rich persons. We shall earn ourself, and spend it to give them very nice prasādam . Gradually when they come, when you engage them in producing their own food, own shelter, own cloth . . . this should be organized. And they'll be glad. As soon as they understand, they will be glad to do. And they will stop all this nonsense: illicit sex and meat*-eating. Then their life will be purified, and they'll make more and more advancement in this path. That is perfection. That you want. Is it clear or not? Oh, yes. *Yes? This is our mission. If you give them very nice, palatable prasādam . . . they go to hotel from miles together to take some palatable foodstuff—restaurant, hotel. And we cannot give nice kṛṣṇa*-prasādam ? Why? Why you cannot give? Arrange like that, first class. Simply for eating they will come. Immediately do it. I have a question, whether we should always give them khicuṛi or whether we should . . . Give them nice prasādam by which they are attracted. It doesn't matter khicuṛi, purī, kachorī, lāḍdu . Whatever they are attracted, we must give. Halavā . *Whatever that will attract them. That I want. Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . Don't waste; give them nice, palatable foodstuff. Give them one finest kachorī , one nice samosā , two purīs , they will be very glad. Make very, very nice prasādam . What is this rubbish, the dog cannot eat even? They have done a great mistake, all rascals. I am very angry. I say that if you have no money, I'll spend, I will give you money. Why should you make such tenth class, and no food at all. It is to be thrown away. Simply waste of grains and energy. Engage nice professional cook, prepare nice foodstuff. I shall spend for that if you have no money. Gentlemen who are coming immediately should be offered some prasādam , "Please come here, take: purī, kachorī, samosā ." Arrangement should be like that. The doctors came, he comes out of love, but there is no prasādam . Huh? What is this? Sorry? The doctor comes, but we could not supply him prasādam at 12 o'clock. Today? Not today, the other day. Oh. Prasādam is not yet ready, you also said. After eating I have no . . . not yet ready. What is this? At 2 o'clock? As soon as they want. The Vṛndāvana also, the same thing I told that. Now they are doing? Prasādam , as soon as they want, they'll must feed some prasādam according to the position of the person. We shall spend for that. I am not hesitating to spend money. Why the arrangement is lacking? Immediately arrange for theirs and invite them. Don't make it childish. Where are the leaders? They are now engaged there? Pardon me? Our leaders are engaged there? At the kīrtana ? Huh. Mahāṁśa is there. I don't know where Haṁsadūta is. So anyway, this is my instruction. We have written and discussed and go. And I want to see tomorrow many thousand people. If you cannot make attractive, why they will come? Then it is failure. Make attractive. Whatever money is required, I shall pay. Simply theory will not help. Make such prasādam as people will come and be mad after it. Yes, we can . . . Just explain. You have taken in writing? It's on tape. So go and discuss. They must be attracted. I see. Otherwise it is failure. (break) . . . who came, but . . . You are satisfied today? No. Then? No. The people also, there was no advertisement of today there would be a program. So whatever it is required, you do it. So on tomorrow, I will do the advertisement and show them . . . Give them very, very first class prasādam . Yes. They will come for the tongue. Yes. Today the ḍāl is . . . they liked it very spicy. That they like, I do not know what they like. But you prepare they should come and eat. Yes. I do not know what they like. There is a lot of sabjī in the ḍāl also, today, and it's hot. They like it. Whatever it may be, whatever they like, the villagers, you prepare. If you have no money, I shall pay money. Okay. But attract them. They will come here to eat, "Oh, very nice thing." That is wanted. I made this movement successful simply by Love Feast. They did not come to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. They came for Love Feast. From very beginning, when I was in 26 Second Avenue, every Sunday I was giving nice foodstuff, at least 200 men. Daily at least more than fifteen, twenty. I was cooking myself. That is the beginning of my movement. The cāpāṭis with Kīrtanānanda, first of all he was taking one and two, then twelve. (laughter) There was another boy . . . Stryādhīśa. *Stryādhīśa. Twenty*-two cāpāṭis . (laughter) "Stryādhīśa, can I give you?" "Yes." I gave him four. Finished. "Stryādhīśa, can I give you?" "Yes." (laughter) Very nice boy. He was eating twenty-two. One day there was no money, so he immediately went and came after some time with some money. "And where did you go?" The shoe booth. He polished shoes and brought some money. (laughs) (laughter) In this way, this was developed. Give them prasādam , nice prasādam . Any gentleman comes, immediately there must be some prasādam . Engage first-class cook. Spend money; don't be a miserly. If you have no money, I will pay. So long I am living, I shall go on paying. You don't be miserly. Bring devotees for eating and then chanting, then cinema, then lecture. In this way you have to develop. Not that people will come, "Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is there, let us go there." They will not come. What do they know about Hare Kṛṣṇa? They will come, "Oh, there is nice, good prasādam distributed." Some people I know, they said that yesterday the prasādam was not nice, and there was . . . *Not nice—it is not eatable even by the dogs! But you are less than the dogs if you prepare such thing. I was surprised. You allowed a sweeper to cook. I was surprised. We have distribution prasādam , not dog's food. Such rascals are here. You do not know. I do not wish to discuss anymore on this point. You have murdered the whole thing in two days. Now if possible, bring them, give them first*-class prasādam , very palatable. Foodstuff means even one has no appetite, he'll eat. That is food. Not that even one has got appetite, he'll forget. That is not food. So do like that, and for money produce, use cane, sugarcane, rice. We shall spend for that. Don't spoil money, but do like businessman. He invests money, he gets a return. Spend it for Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. There is no question of becoming a miser. I never did it. When I have got a farthing, I want to spend it, immediately spend. Oh, what I have made this BBT? Immediately fifty percent for printing and fifty percent for spreading this. Why don't you understand what I want to do? So whatever is done is done; now do it very nicely. I want to see at least 1,000 men coming from the villages. There are 20,000 men here. You cannot attract them? Can we announce that you will give darśana on the stage for five minutes? Huh? Can we announce . . .? Nobody will come for my darśana , but if you want, I'll go. Yes. That is not very difficult task. Because they are all very anxious to see you, because they've all been . . . All right, I shall go. What is that? The difficulty is I would have gone very gladly, but they do not understand my language, neither Hindi nor English. It can be translated in Telugu. Then I shall go. I shall go. Yes. I shall go. I shall speak. Give them very nice food. From tomorrow I will . . . if there are rascals, you bring. I will pay nice cook. Make varieties, very palatable food. Kichranna, puṣpānna , rice, there are so many preparations. Paramānna . You do not make paramānna, kichranna, puṣpānna. There are varieties of rice preparation. They know, the southern people, with curd, yogurt . . . Tamarind. *Eh? Tamarind, so many preparations. So make like that. Why dog eating? They are not dogs. You cannot expect, because you are giving some dog*-eatable food, they will come. There must be one first-class cook, and all our men should learn. There's no need of simply keeping unduly, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa," and sleeping. We don't want such men. Make a show. And do not know anything how to preach. Useless. The householder, the women should be engaged in cooking. Their children should be gathered together. One man . . . I have said many times, all the children should be taken in a room by one woman, and others should be engaged in the cooking department. I have seen it. Your country, America, when they go to church, all the childrens are gathered together in a room. Is it not? Yes. And one or two men take care. And others, they go. Similarly, children they must have, so . . . not that everyone is children busy, "I cannot do." They cannot do if they are busy with children. So what is the use of keeping such householders? Let them live outside, earn their money. Woman business is to cleanse, to cut the vegetables, to cook. What is this? They're simply busy with the children? And they have started their mission for maintaining some children and useless women. You should organize. Rādhikāra pakka anna vividha byañjana. All the gopīs, they are engaged for cooking for Kṛṣṇa. Mother Yaśodā will call them, "You young girls, you can cook very nicely." Do you understand Bengali? No. Rādhikā with Her friends, they are cooking. And they cook so nicely that parama ānande kṛṣṇa korena bhojana : with great pleasure Kṛṣṇa is eating. And that we have to distribute. Not dog's food. You do not know what is the purpose of this mission. Don't do it. Here is a good chance; *don't spoil it. Produce huge. Make profit. You spend for Kṛṣṇa. Train all devotees how to cook. All women. Don't distribute dog's eatable things. Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . *Kṛṣṇa is taking with great pleasure. That prasādam you have to distribute. Not that dog is rejecting and you have to distribute that prasādam . Why do you think like that? This prasādam , this so*-called, rubbish thing which is rejected by dog, and you are offering to the human being. You do it. If you have no money I shall pay. There is no question of scarcity of money. Don't spoil money, but spend for real purpose, that's all. And you arrange for huge agricultural. Whatever is required, water, we shall arrange for that. Labor, everything. And if you perform yajña , there will be rain. Anyway, I asked you the other day to fill up the tank. What is the difficulty? Which tank? That big tank. Well. Big well. Just here. The one that's been pumped empty. Anyway, the big empty one that we . . . But you were surprised. You do not know that we have got a big well here? The one that we drink water from? The big square one. Behind the house. Why it is empty? Hmm? Fill it for what, Prabhupāda? Why the well is empty? There is no water. He's surprised, as if dropping from the sky. You do not know that well? It's just a tank. Tank, yes. Why it is empty? Because I didn't know what purpose it will serve by filling it. Filling it, we shall pump and distribute water. You shall fit pipes, and pump water and distribute to the field, so there will be no scarcity of water, and produce. What it was meant, you do not know? No, right now, that field does not need water to . . . Then why you are not growing there something? The paddy is drying over there, Prabhupāda. Huh? The paddy, the rice, is drying. No, no, there are so many other fields. Why they are empty? Oh, we have to go and do boring wells and . . . Therefore that means water supply. Yes, that's what I have to arrange now. Hah. So why . . .? When you will arrange? Arrange it immediately. Yes, before . . . And that is also one of the water pool to solve water problem, the tank. Do you follow what I say? Yes. You fill up the tank, and by pumping through pipe, you distribute water. The viaducts are already there, troughs. Yes. *If we have got water filled up in that tank, we can water so many lands. We shall spend for that. We shall . . . pipe line, pumping. If you have so much land we can produce gold. But you have no brain. Produce gold, get money and spend it for Kṛṣṇa. This is wanted. Not simply planning and talking. The world is suffering for want of right planning. Otherwise, there is no question of suffering. Pūrṇam idam , complete it is, everything complete. That is the Vedic version. Why it is incomplete? Incomplete means these rascals. Supplying the necessities of life. (break) Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Kṛṣṇa does not want to see that we are starving for want of food. That He does not want to see. But because you have come to the material world, you have to work hard. Then you'll get your food. That is the material world. Śarīra*-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ ( BG 3.8), Kṛṣṇa says. Very . . . if you do not work, then you cannot get food. Simply work together. Sarva-kāma-dughā mahī (SB 1.10.4). And you get from the land. You have got land. You get anything from the land. The land must be moist, then you get everything. That we want to show. Hmm? What do you think? Land is . . . Oh, yes. Eh? You are intelligent, you . . . eh? You are the intelligent one, Prabhupāda. Now, what do you think this idea? No, it's wonderful. Yes, do that. In Vṛndāvana I saw one bull, just goes around in the circle all day and makes the water come up on these little catchers. And then it goes . . . Yes, so many means there are, watering. The whole field. *Yes. People have lost the program. These rascals, they draw all these men to manufacture Goodyear tire and eat stone. This is going on. Modern man, they draw all these man, "Come on, I shall pay you 20 rupees daily. Prepare Goodyear tire, and eat stone. Take paper. Purchase stone. That's all. This is going on. What brain they will have? Twenty rupees they get, and they spend ten rupees for wine and five rupees for cigarette, and fooding, say five rupees. No ghee , no milk. Soul*-killing civilization. And against this soul-killing civilization, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hmm, what you wanted to say? This . . . your Dr. Ghosh, where he is staying . . . Mm. We were there this afternoon for a program, and all their land is so green, and they are growing vegetables by a patch no bigger than this mattress that you are sitting. They are working one, planting, then growing another. Just a small piece, then planting. Yes. They have some way for the water to go to . . . You should do like that here, in our land. Do like that. If they can do here, some few miles away . . . We can do. . . . you can do it. Do it immediately. See how they are doing. So much land, why it should remain vacant? So combinedly immediately begin. Hmm? So how long you are staying here? Till Sunday morning. Oh. So your business is complete or . . . No, almost. So, give him all help. Yes, people are . . . He is doing very nice there, and he'll do very nice. One thing I thought it would be good if Your Divine Grace would write a letter making him the GBC, so that he can act with full authority. I'll give full authority. Write letter; I shall sign. Yes. You have full authority. Write letter, I'll sign. Yes. By your talking, I'm also thinking we should have a farm in Germany. I know . . . *Oh, yes. Why not? Everywhere. I myself, when I go to the farm, I forget whether it is India or Germany or France. I forget. The land is there. Sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī . We get everything from that. I have several times said that why they make this distinction, "This is France," "This is India," "This is . . ."? Everywhere the God's land. Why these rascals make division, I do not understand. Every land belongs to Kṛṣṇa, and you are sons of Kṛṣṇa. Let us live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. All rascals, mūḍha . There is rain now and then fall in Europe? Yes, now it's very much. Now it's too late. Hmm? Now it's too late. I mean, it wasn't there, but now it's so much. Hmm. But God is giving hint, that if "Rascal, it is in My hand. I can keep you in starvation to death." The man is dull brain. Anyway, I am anxious to learn why so many people are suffering. They have become all gray. Throughout whole France I saw. From Paris to Valencay I went. Gray. These people are not lazy, but there was no water. They utilize every inch land for agricultural purpose. At least I saw in France. Then maybe everywhere in Europe. They are not lazy fellow. There is organization, government organization, here. People, they . . . anyway, let us show some example. Immediately make program. You have seen, yes? Yes. And you are expert. Do it immediately. If there is requires some money, we shall pay. Fill up. What is the difficulty in filling up this tank? I'm not still understanding which tank you are . . . because there are many tanks . . . . . . (indistinct) . . . it's empty. No one ever swim in here. We took out water to water the fields. So why it is empty? Have it filled up. How to fill? It has to come by itself. The water comes from the recuperation from the soil, so it is not in our hands to fill it. It just comes by itself slowly. It takes six days. If we empty the well it takes takes six days to fill it. No, no. By the . . . by digging a well or something you cannot . . . If we do a boring, then that's . . . the well can be filled. We have a pump and we can fill it. But now, as it is, it's fifty feet deep. Why not make boring? That is my plan. That is what I was telling . . . Why plan? Why do it now? Yes. Now . . . Keep it always filled up. He's saying he has the money. Yes, I was thinking before you go, we should get the rigs coming here and putting on the whole . . . Yes. Tomorrow we should go to that place. Yes. It's the first business. We should go to that place and have him come, start the pool. Water required. Fill up with water and distribute water and produce, huge quantity, whatever can be produced. Sugarcane, rice, these are very valuable commodity at the present moment. Produce. And sugarcane means the upper portion will be the food for the cow. Even rice. Even . . . oh, yes. Very, very practic . . . we want some, same, food. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Bhūtāni means both animal and men. Animals should be well fed. Not only human being, but animal also. Otherwise, how he'll work? Don't use tractor. Use this bulls. Otherwise there will be a problem, how to engage the bulls. Yes. Engage them for transport, for plowing. We should not get a tractor? No. When you have got bulls, why should you get . . .? We have only 8 pairs of bulls. Yes, and other bulls have been eaten up. Now we stop that eating. No, if you need, you can purchase tractor. But as far as possible try to avoid, and engage the bulls. Otherwise it will be problems. The Europeans have invented tractors, and the bull is a problem. Therefore they must be sent to the slaughterhouse. So we can not create that problem. How the bull should be utilized? They should be used for transport and plowing. (background noise) What is this turmoil? I think they are distributing prasādam . *Now they have finished the slide*-show, and they are sitting down for prasādam . All right. Go and see it is done nicely. Announce that, "Tomorrow we shall prepare such and such nice preparations. Please, you are especially invited." In this way attract. (end) Conversation -- December 12, 1976, Hyderabad So explain the situation to them. What happened a couple of times before over here was that some devotees became very passionate, mistreated a few village people over here, these laborers. And at that time many of the village people, from the villages, they came and they were protesting, and they made a big scene about it. One of them was Caraṇāravinda, who created a very . . . No, Caraṇāravinda is eccentric. Too much. And then there was Advaitācārya also. So there was very delicate situation, because these people, they . . . it may be a very little thing, you know, little thing, which does not need much propaganda or anything like that, but the village people made it very big, and all the village people came . . . Naturally they do that. They do that. They start . . . because they have no other engagement. A little thing to excite them, then they want to become excited. In Bengal it is called tilake tāla. Tāla , a palm fruit, it is big, and tila , is the sesame. You know sesame seeds? Sesame. Sesame, yes. That is very small. So these seeds, sesame seed, is called tila . Tila lava , and they make it tāla . Instead of tila , it becomes tāla , and then big mess. Tilake tāla . The fact was tila , but they called it tāla . So that was happening. Then the other thing is that these people, they are very innocent people, and they are very superstitious also. So when they see foreigners, they immediately become a little afraid. And there is some kind of a complex that comes on them and it makes it very difficult for the foreigners to communicate with these people. This is what I have seen happening. It is very difficult to commu . . . now this is what I have experienced since last two, three days also. When Tejiyas was trying to get this garden around here done, but the laborers could not get the message across. They were doing something else, and then the blame was coming on me. I never instructed them at all for doing anything. I never took them away from the work at all. I was amazed and I was surprised to hear that I was accused of taking away the laborers from Tejiyas and put them on some other work which I had no concern at all. So this is what was troubling me today when I was thinking that, "How is it that there was this misunderstanding which has caused anxiety in so many devotees?" So this communication gap is going to be a problem which has to be solved. And for that . . . Oh, this is the explanation of the situation? You . . .? You experienced. Yes. So how to adjust these things now? Do it. What I would suggest, Prabhupāda, is that I could stay here, and whatever work we have to do, we sit together in the morning or in the night and we decide, "Tomorrow we have to do so much. We need so much labor for vegetables. We need so much labor for this, this." We make up a whole schedule of work for the next day. And in the morning laborers come and Tejiyas, who has experience in agriculture, he can show how this has to be done, how that . . . And he can speak Telugu also. Yes. And I can be there to see that there is proper communication. And then after ten o'clock, because laborers start work early morning, so at ten o'clock, then I can go to Hyderabad and do official work for the day, seeing the government people and things like that. So what do you think? Eh? That's good. That is all right? Yes. Then it is all right. Do it like that. We should meet not late in the evening; in the afternoon, so that the . . . if we need more laborers, they have to be informed previously. We can't inform them in the morning. We have to inform them the previous day. In the evening someone has to go to their village or whatever and tell them how many people we need, because each day is going to be a little different. As soon as we get the water, we're going to need many, many laborers. *Yes. That's how it would be, if we could get permanent laborers. That's another thing I experienced, that when these village laborers come, they come at nine o'clock, nine*-thirty, they work at their own speed and then, at five-thirty, they see the sun. I was amazed how they find the exact time, but they do it by the sun's movements. Exactly at five-thirty they will stop their work and go. But I have seen our laborers who stay here on our land, they work from five-thirty in the morning and they work all day, all the way to the night. There are some people here from the local village. They are working also nicely. Yes. I think that Ānandamaya, he is . . . So this is good idea. In the evening you sit together, make program and execute it. In the morning. That's all. There's one more point that Tejiyas made. That's about the outside workers, he was saying, from Kerala. We should also be careful because . . . about enmity also. Because I've lived in the villagers' houses for two years, and I've seen in different cases where if an outsider is there. These Kerala people, they are also considered outsiders. These villagers, they regard them as being different. So they are actually even getting more requisites than the local people. We should try and encourage the local people in working. They may not in the beginning work so hard, but we should encourage them that this is their project. Local people will always be working because we will never have a staff to be enough for all our work. Like, we may have twenty, thirty families staying here, and I have seen that the people who are staying in these villages, they will not come and stay over here, because they are staying just around here; they have their own house. They will come and work here, they will participate and everything, but they won't come and stay here. They have their houses outside here. But the people from different villages, a little away, who have no home, who are helpless, they will come and stay and they will be very loyal. If we give them food and we give them clothing, they will be very loyal to us. They will become like our full supporters. Hmm. Naturally. Naturally. There is two men here who are like that because they have no home. They were staying on the street and they were working on the construction. So I said: "Come here." And then we gave them food . . . That Mobhu? Mebub Shah. He's a Muslim, but he's so loyal. He's the best man. And then Puru and Hanuman too. These three people, they are very loyal and they are trustworthy. These people in the villages, they tend . . . because they have their home there, so sometimes they want something for their home, so they will steal. And if some other village man steals, he will not stop him. He will say: "All right," because if he stops him, then in his village there will be trouble for him. See? So he will encourage his other villagers to steal. But these men, if they see some villagers stealing, they will stop him. This has happened. This is natural. So how to deal with this? *So we have both. We can get outsiders to come and stay here who we can give prasādam , make them chant and give them mahā*-prasādam . They love it. In the morning . . . we used to give them a little mahā-prasādam in the morning. They used to like it very much. Like that, we gain their confidence. *We shall like that they will come here and stay and remain our twenty*-four hours' son. That is very good also. The only thing is that in the beginning, because they do not know us very well, they will demand some salary. I told you previously that now I am paying them hundred rupees and 125 rupees for family. So why 125? Hundred rupees sufficient. If they are eating and we are giving shelter, then a hundred rupees sufficient. Hundred rupees . . . if they have a family, then his wife works also and then his children who are grown up, they all work. Everyone works. So they'll also work. So that you have to decide. Manage so that there is no misunderstanding. Simply management required. So you . . . the best thing is that you sit together . . . Without fail we have to meet every evening. There shouldn't be any . . . without fail, every evening we should meet. Yes. That will be all right. There shouldn't be many interruptions. Otherwise then it becomes a botheration. One question I have, Prabhupāda. Yesterday, day before yesterday, we were discussing about the prasāda cooking. So if they bring one nice cook . . . Yes, well, this evening I was just over there, and I noticed some of the carpenters are cooking, and I don't know who the other people are. Why? They're not cooking for the feast. They're cooking their own thing. No, no, no. They were cutting up our vegetables which are going to be cooked and served to the public. No. Yes, right over there by the fire. No uninitiated person should cook. Brāhmaṇa cook. What about professional cooks? Real brāhmaṇa . Professional cooks? Profes . . .? They are brāhmaṇas . Yes, but they . . . even though they are brāhmaṇas , they have this habit of smoking, and if we try to find a professional cook who doesn't smoke, it is very difficult. Hmm. As far as possible, our men should cook, a professional man who is in good habit, who has promised that they will not do this smoking. We have to manage somehow. As far as our devotees cooking, it's practically impossible. We have tried so hard. They just can't do it. Yesterday two of the boys tried to help, and the rice was not cooked because it was not done. And he burned his leg. The water fell on his leg, and he couldn't handle the pots properly and he got . . . now the poor boy, he is suffering. He's got a wounded leg, one of the German boys, the one with long hair. So our devotees, they are not . . . this boy, Bengali boy, Dilid, he's good. He can do it but he needs at least four or five men to help. He was a professional cook, but he's not . . . he can't do it himself. He needs too much . . . He needs at least four people to help. It's a big cooking, so it's also very difficult for one man to do, and nobody wants to help the cooking because it's so hot, the smoke goes in the eyes and it's very troublesome. So nobody wants to help in the cooking, devotees. Not willing. They are not willing. They're not willing to help in the kitchen because it is very hot, very hard, the eyes get burned, things like that. So this one Bengali boy, he's a very good cook. He can do it very nicely but he wants help. And if no one helps, then he refuses to cook. And if you press him, then he runs away. Yesterday he tried to run away four times because we were trying to press him to do the cooking. No, no, cooking alone, it is not possible. So that you have to do. Find out some men. Cooperate. Otherwise how it is possible? Yes, therefore I'm asking you about hired people, whether hired people are good. In my experience . . . So if they are . . . if our men not available, then you must hire, hire people. But not these carpenters or like that. No, we should get professional cooks who are really good, like this man who cooked today. Yes. And this man is coming. He can bring. Yes, he himself will come. But he will have the habit of smoking, and I think we can at the most regulate his smoking, "If you want to smoke, you go somewhere far away and smoke, and before you start cooking you must wash yourself, have a bath, and then do the cooking." Yes. What can be done? Ne māmā che kānā māmā : "If there is no uncle, one blind uncle is all right." So the matter is now clear. You do it and develop it. There is one confusion in my mind, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Mahāṁśa said that the local villagers will not be inclined to come here and live because they are living just outside. But my impression was, from hearing you speak, was that everyone, whether they're living just outside or a long distance outside, they are suffering from material existence. They're having to struggle for existence. They're being taxed by the government. There's so many problems to maintain themself. And every living being in the material world is struggling to maintain himself. But if we offer them a house here and some work and we give them all food, clothing, and . . . That is our aim. That's our aim. That is our aim. So you can engage some men to cut the hill for blocks and gradually develop house. These Badapur, they are good men. Like this room, yes. And as far as possible, induce them to come and live here. Yes. Yes, that can be done. But family attachment . . . you see, these people, they have also family attachment, just like karmīs . So they are not so willing to . . . because their whole family . . . the whole village is like one family. It's like one family. They are all related to each other. And they can stay. They stay. Many of them stay here overnight. Naturally everyone wants to stay at his own place. "Home, sweet home." "There is no place like home." That's a fact. That is psychology. They will like to stay there. But if they have got facility to live here with family, they may come. I was thinking we can make their house just like our house. If they are living right on our border, we can go to their house, tell them how to make an altar and make them live like how we are living. Let them stay there but let them live a good Kṛṣṇa conscious life. They'll come gradually, not immediately. Immediately, the psychology is, they have got attachment for their house. It may be worse house, but still, their attachment . . . that is natural. Long, long ago, when I was child practically, I went with my father in the village. So one man from the village was serving us. So my father, "This boy is nice. So why not take him to Calcutta?" So one day he was absent. It was dropping and . . . so I went in the interior of the village and I saw that his house was broken, there was no roof, and rain was falling and he was sitting, covering with a cloth. Then I told him that, "Why not come with us in Calcutta? We shall give you nice place, nice food." So his answer was, " Nā bābu ghar chere jabo nā " (chuckles), "Bābujī, I cannot go out of my home." That was his home. (laughter) This is my practical exp . . . he was sitting idly and it is dropping, and he could not come to serve. Still, that is his home, and he cannot leave home, that " Bābu ghar chere jabo nā ." That is psychology. It may be very worse condition; still, nobody wants to give up "Home, sweet home." That is natural psychology. So you have to manage. You see that why they, these Delhi passenger clerks . . . this morning I was telling that son was asking mother, "Who is this man?" His father, and he had never seen. "You have seen father." No, rather, he had no chance to see father because when the father comes back from the office it is night, ten o'clock or more than that. That time the son is sleeping. And again he has to go early in the morning. That time also, son is sleeping. So he did not know. So one Sunday, when he's grown up, he is asking his mother, "Who is this man?" "So this man . . ." Not only in India—everywhere. I have seen in New York from the other island? What is that? Long Island. Eh? Long Island. Long Island. They are coming two hours in the ferry, three hours in the bus. They are going to the office. Eight hours there. Then five hours and eight hours, thirteen hours, again five hours. Then thirteen and . . . eighteen hours. And for six hours they have got home. "Home, sweet home." I knew people coming from Poona to Bombay to work. Just see. All the way from Poona. One and the same thing. *The home attachment is so great. These Delhi passengers, they are coming, hanging, and there are so many accidents daily. And few hours he will live with wife. That is his home. And whole other, out of twenty*-four hours, seventeen hours are outside, and maybe seven hours at home. But still, he'll come home. The home attachment is very big. Therefore we have to create attachment for this hari-saṅkīrtana . If you create that attachment, then they will give up home attachment, try life, to live here. Tathāsakti . You have to train them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in such a way. Then: *Tathāsakti . Then they will be attached here. Spiritually if you enlighten them, then they'll be attached. They'll voluntarily say they are accepting here. The chanting, chanting, then . . . this is the beginning that, "You chant and take prasādam ." Then ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Gradually the heart will be cleansed, and gradually they will be elevated to the platform of āsakti . Then they will not want money, they will not want . . . then they will live here, work, just you are doing. That stage, that requires little advancement. Therefore I say this kīrtana program must be continued. Then ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam . As you make the heart cleansed, they become more and more advanced. And then this stage of āsakti that, "This is . . . we shall live here." Just like we have given up our hearth and home and wife and children. We have given up that attachment. This attachment, practical. That is . . . you cannot expect immediately. That is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). When one gets better attachment, then they can give up this nasty attachment. Therefore we have to continue this saṅkīrtana . This is the psychology. But there is very great prospect to develop this place, and you have got experience. If you can develop, it will be very nice example. Once successful here, we can introduce this program. And India will be easier because they are by nature inclined to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will be easier. The kīrtana must be there. Otherwise, why we have to take so much responsibility? Last night it was very hard. Again, no one was coming to the kīrtana . Eh? These persons who are staying here in the garb of devotees, if they don't come . . . Devotees. No one would come. It was a great struggle. Again Jagadīśa and I and Mūrti, we were alone there, and we had to go and get people, and again they wouldn't come. So what is the use? This Kṛṣṇan wouldn't come, and this other boy never comes. They should be made to leave. Otherwise they must follow the program. Kīrtana is so nice. All day we may be doing something. The only relief we get, from kīrtana . No, without kīrtana , it is . . . Refreshes you completely. If you stop kīrtana , then it is ordinary. Work. Yes. And these people are very enthusiastic for kīrtana . So our men should be, those who are here, they must be very enthusiastic. And the paṇḍāl , what is this play paṇḍāl ? This paṇḍāl ? It is very small. Make a big paṇḍāl . But if you want every day, we should buy one. Buy one. Good one. Yes. Make it over there, permanent place. With permanent speakers, permanent lights and . . . Oh, yes. Yes. We should have every night. Do. Prabhupāda wants us to continue every day kīrtana and prasādam . So do this and purchase. What is the price? I'll find out tomorrow. Yes. Do it nicely, enthusiastically. Everything will be success. So any other question to discuss? I don't know if this is the time, but I think this project should have a separate account. Yes. It will have an account in the name of the Trust. The Venkatesh . . . I mean ISKCON Venkateshwara Trust. So as soon as we register tomorrow, day after tomorrow we'll open an account in that name. With how many signees? Make three, you three. Joint. Out of three, two. Out of three, any two will do. That's all. And amount which will be given from Your Divine Grace will be a loan towards the Trust, which will be paid back later on. Yes. Māyāpur account you take. I ask them to transfer to this account. And when you want to pay . . . Yes, then they transfer That's all. That will be . . . do that. So open account. And also that lakh of rupees which I gave him last year. Yes, that is his. The temple should pay it. Yes, that one lakh rupees I will pay from the four and a half lakhs . You told me to put it everything into your account. So should I put the four and a half lakhs into your account, or should I put one lakh in this account and then three and a half . . . Anyway, give him. That's all. Anyway. Okay. Otherwise give me, and I give him. It was meant for here. See, we gave it from Germany for the project. Yes. Yes, that is understood. So that can go into this one. Yes. It can go directly into this account. So immediately open account, and whatever minimum you want, I will give you. That's all. And three signatories. Out of three, two. Yes. Prabhupāda, if we're going to have a permanent paṇḍāl for visitors, why don't we build some simple kīrtana hall where the people can also take prasādam , something like they built in Māyāpur but not . . . Do it . . . do it gradually. For the time being have a paṇḍāl . Yes. Yes, for the time being. That could be used for kīrtana and prasādam . Yes. That you told me just now, at that site where we have the permanent temple. That, tomorrow morning we shall see and make a . . . A design. *One more question. When . . . the first time you were here two years ago, you suggested that we should have Gaura*-Nitāi Deity immediately. *Yes. Nṛsiṁha*-deva, Gaura-Nitāi and Jagannātha. Right here? Yes. Shall we begin right here? We have this little place . . . Yes. Yes. *I have a set of Gaura*-Nitāis with me from the bus, but They're smaller. So immediately install. Immediately. Yes. And have regular kīrtana and ārati . Deity must be there. That will be our engagement. That's all right. Enthusiasm. Real thing is enthusiasm, utsāhān. Dhairya , patience. And . . . Determination. Determination: "Yes, I must do it." And here, if you make determination, everything is there. Everything is there. Such a vast land, and capital Kṛṣṇa will give. Land, labor. Labor is there. So simply organization required, that's all. Then everything is all right. Make use the production. First of all eat yourself as much as you . . . and then trade. Get money. People will be surprised at the organization. And there are twenty thousand men all round? No, that is . . . just in very near villages there's about eight thousand. That's all right. So if you can make one thousand person interested, then you'll be successful. So you can engage some worker for cutting the rocks. Yes. Tomorrow I am arranging. In this Dabilpur there's some very good workers. I saw in the village. They have so many places where there are rocks stacked up. And they have many craftsmen in that Dabilpur. That's the main village in this area. They have them there, just near Mr . . . that Anjaya Reddy's house. This house, the blocks are prepared, you make huts and engage some men to make that tile. Tiles. Round tiles. Yes. The roof tiles. Yes, just like the ones which are in the temple. Then locally you get everything. You haven't got to get from outside. Eh? Clay roof tiles. Yes. It is very nice, very strong and very comfortable and simple. (sounds of children) So the villagers have come? Yes, it sounds like it. Their children. By themselves they were doing this kīrtana . Is somebody leading kīrtana now? The children. We should go. Let's go. Sit down daily and make next program. Then it will be success. Jaya Prabhupāda. Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Conversation -- December 12, 1976, Hyderabad So explain the situation to them. What happened a couple of times before over here was that some devotees became very passionate, mistreated a few village people over here, these laborers. And at that time many of the village people, from the villages, they came and they were protesting, and they made a big scene about it. One of them was Caraṇāravinda, who created a very . . . No, Caraṇāravinda is eccentric. Too much. And then there was Advaitācārya also. So there was very delicate situation, because these people, they . . . it may be a very little thing, you know, little thing, which does not need much propaganda or anything like that, but the village people made it very big, and all the village people came . . . Naturally they do that. They do that. They start . . . because they have no other engagement. A little thing to excite them, then they want to become excited. In Bengal it is called tilake tāla. Tāla , a palm fruit, it is big, and tila , is the sesame. You know sesame seeds? Sesame. Sesame, yes. That is very small. So these seeds, sesame seed, is called tila . Tila lava , and they make it tāla . Instead of tila , it becomes tāla , and then big mess. Tilake tāla . The fact was tila , but they called it tāla . So that was happening. Then the other thing is that these people, they are very innocent people, and they are very superstitious also. So when they see foreigners, they immediately become a little afraid. And there is some kind of a complex that comes on them and it makes it very difficult for the foreigners to communicate with these people. This is what I have seen happening. It is very difficult to commu . . . now this is what I have experienced since last two, three days also. When Tejiyas was trying to get this garden around here done, but the laborers could not get the message across. They were doing something else, and then the blame was coming on me. I never instructed them at all for doing anything. I never took them away from the work at all. I was amazed and I was surprised to hear that I was accused of taking away the laborers from Tejiyas and put them on some other work which I had no concern at all. So this is what was troubling me today when I was thinking that, "How is it that there was this misunderstanding which has caused anxiety in so many devotees?" So this communication gap is going to be a problem which has to be solved. And for that . . . Oh, this is the explanation of the situation? You . . .? You experienced. Yes. So how to adjust these things now? Do it. What I would suggest, Prabhupāda, is that I could stay here, and whatever work we have to do, we sit together in the morning or in the night and we decide, "Tomorrow we have to do so much. We need so much labor for vegetables. We need so much labor for this, this." We make up a whole schedule of work for the next day. And in the morning laborers come and Tejiyas, who has experience in agriculture, he can show how this has to be done, how that . . . And he can speak Telugu also. Yes. And I can be there to see that there is proper communication. And then after ten o'clock, because laborers start work early morning, so at ten o'clock, then I can go to Hyderabad and do official work for the day, seeing the government people and things like that. So what do you think? Eh? That's good. That is all right? Yes. Then it is all right. Do it like that. We should meet not late in the evening; in the afternoon, so that the . . . if we need more laborers, they have to be informed previously. We can't inform them in the morning. We have to inform them the previous day. In the evening someone has to go to their village or whatever and tell them how many people we need, because each day is going to be a little different. As soon as we get the water, we're going to need many, many laborers. *Yes. That's how it would be, if we could get permanent laborers. That's another thing I experienced, that when these village laborers come, they come at nine o'clock, nine*-thirty, they work at their own speed and then, at five-thirty, they see the sun. I was amazed how they find the exact time, but they do it by the sun's movements. Exactly at five-thirty they will stop their work and go. But I have seen our laborers who stay here on our land, they work from five-thirty in the morning and they work all day, all the way to the night. There are some people here from the local village. They are working also nicely. Yes. I think that Ānandamaya, he is . . . So this is good idea. In the evening you sit together, make program and execute it. In the morning. That's all. There's one more point that Tejiyas made. That's about the outside workers, he was saying, from Kerala. We should also be careful because . . . about enmity also. Because I've lived in the villagers' houses for two years, and I've seen in different cases where if an outsider is there. These Kerala people, they are also considered outsiders. These villagers, they regard them as being different. So they are actually even getting more requisites than the local people. We should try and encourage the local people in working. They may not in the beginning work so hard, but we should encourage them that this is their project. Local people will always be working because we will never have a staff to be enough for all our work. Like, we may have twenty, thirty families staying here, and I have seen that the people who are staying in these villages, they will not come and stay over here, because they are staying just around here; they have their own house. They will come and work here, they will participate and everything, but they won't come and stay here. They have their houses outside here. But the people from different villages, a little away, who have no home, who are helpless, they will come and stay and they will be very loyal. If we give them food and we give them clothing, they will be very loyal to us. They will become like our full supporters. Hmm. Naturally. Naturally. There is two men here who are like that because they have no home. They were staying on the street and they were working on the construction. So I said: "Come here." And then we gave them food . . . That Mobhu? Mebub Shah. He's a Muslim, but he's so loyal. He's the best man. And then Puru and Hanuman too. These three people, they are very loyal and they are trustworthy. These people in the villages, they tend . . . because they have their home there, so sometimes they want something for their home, so they will steal. And if some other village man steals, he will not stop him. He will say: "All right," because if he stops him, then in his village there will be trouble for him. See? So he will encourage his other villagers to steal. But these men, if they see some villagers stealing, they will stop him. This has happened. This is natural. So how to deal with this? *So we have both. We can get outsiders to come and stay here who we can give prasādam , make them chant and give them mahā*-prasādam . They love it. In the morning . . . we used to give them a little mahā-prasādam in the morning. They used to like it very much. Like that, we gain their confidence. *We shall like that they will come here and stay and remain our twenty*-four hours' son. That is very good also. The only thing is that in the beginning, because they do not know us very well, they will demand some salary. I told you previously that now I am paying them hundred rupees and 125 rupees for family. So why 125? Hundred rupees sufficient. If they are eating and we are giving shelter, then a hundred rupees sufficient. Hundred rupees . . . if they have a family, then his wife works also and then his children who are grown up, they all work. Everyone works. So they'll also work. So that you have to decide. Manage so that there is no misunderstanding. Simply management required. So you . . . the best thing is that you sit together . . . Without fail we have to meet every evening. There shouldn't be any . . . without fail, every evening we should meet. Yes. That will be all right. There shouldn't be many interruptions. Otherwise then it becomes a botheration. One question I have, Prabhupāda. Yesterday, day before yesterday, we were discussing about the prasāda cooking. So if they bring one nice cook . . . Yes, well, this evening I was just over there, and I noticed some of the carpenters are cooking, and I don't know who the other people are. Why? They're not cooking for the feast. They're cooking their own thing. No, no, no. They were cutting up our vegetables which are going to be cooked and served to the public. No. Yes, right over there by the fire. No uninitiated person should cook. Brāhmaṇa cook. What about professional cooks? Real brāhmaṇa . Professional cooks? Profes . . .? They are brāhmaṇas . Yes, but they . . . even though they are brāhmaṇas , they have this habit of smoking, and if we try to find a professional cook who doesn't smoke, it is very difficult. Hmm. As far as possible, our men should cook, a professional man who is in good habit, who has promised that they will not do this smoking. We have to manage somehow. As far as our devotees cooking, it's practically impossible. We have tried so hard. They just can't do it. Yesterday two of the boys tried to help, and the rice was not cooked because it was not done. And he burned his leg. The water fell on his leg, and he couldn't handle the pots properly and he got . . . now the poor boy, he is suffering. He's got a wounded leg, one of the German boys, the one with long hair. So our devotees, they are not . . . this boy, Bengali boy, Dilid, he's good. He can do it but he needs at least four or five men to help. He was a professional cook, but he's not . . . he can't do it himself. He needs too much . . . He needs at least four people to help. It's a big cooking, so it's also very difficult for one man to do, and nobody wants to help the cooking because it's so hot, the smoke goes in the eyes and it's very troublesome. So nobody wants to help in the cooking, devotees. Not willing. They are not willing. They're not willing to help in the kitchen because it is very hot, very hard, the eyes get burned, things like that. So this one Bengali boy, he's a very good cook. He can do it very nicely but he wants help. And if no one helps, then he refuses to cook. And if you press him, then he runs away. Yesterday he tried to run away four times because we were trying to press him to do the cooking. No, no, cooking alone, it is not possible. So that you have to do. Find out some men. Cooperate. Otherwise how it is possible? Yes, therefore I'm asking you about hired people, whether hired people are good. In my experience . . . So if they are . . . if our men not available, then you must hire, hire people. But not these carpenters or like that. No, we should get professional cooks who are really good, like this man who cooked today. Yes. And this man is coming. He can bring. Yes, he himself will come. But he will have the habit of smoking, and I think we can at the most regulate his smoking, "If you want to smoke, you go somewhere far away and smoke, and before you start cooking you must wash yourself, have a bath, and then do the cooking." Yes. What can be done? Ne māmā che kānā māmā : "If there is no uncle, one blind uncle is all right." So the matter is now clear. You do it and develop it. There is one confusion in my mind, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Mahāṁśa said that the local villagers will not be inclined to come here and live because they are living just outside. But my impression was, from hearing you speak, was that everyone, whether they're living just outside or a long distance outside, they are suffering from material existence. They're having to struggle for existence. They're being taxed by the government. There's so many problems to maintain themself. And every living being in the material world is struggling to maintain himself. But if we offer them a house here and some work and we give them all food, clothing, and . . . That is our aim. That's our aim. That is our aim. So you can engage some men to cut the hill for blocks and gradually develop house. These Badapur, they are good men. Like this room, yes. And as far as possible, induce them to come and live here. Yes. Yes, that can be done. But family attachment . . . you see, these people, they have also family attachment, just like karmīs . So they are not so willing to . . . because their whole family . . . the whole village is like one family. It's like one family. They are all related to each other. And they can stay. They stay. Many of them stay here overnight. Naturally everyone wants to stay at his own place. "Home, sweet home." "There is no place like home." That's a fact. That is psychology. They will like to stay there. But if they have got facility to live here with family, they may come. I was thinking we can make their house just like our house. If they are living right on our border, we can go to their house, tell them how to make an altar and make them live like how we are living. Let them stay there but let them live a good Kṛṣṇa conscious life. They'll come gradually, not immediately. Immediately, the psychology is, they have got attachment for their house. It may be worse house, but still, their attachment . . . that is natural. Long, long ago, when I was child practically, I went with my father in the village. So one man from the village was serving us. So my father, "This boy is nice. So why not take him to Calcutta?" So one day he was absent. It was dropping and . . . so I went in the interior of the village and I saw that his house was broken, there was no roof, and rain was falling and he was sitting, covering with a cloth. Then I told him that, "Why not come with us in Calcutta? We shall give you nice place, nice food." So his answer was, " Nā bābu ghar chere jabo nā " (chuckles), "Bābujī, I cannot go out of my home." That was his home. (laughter) This is my practical exp . . . he was sitting idly and it is dropping, and he could not come to serve. Still, that is his home, and he cannot leave home, that " Bābu ghar chere jabo nā ." That is psychology. It may be very worse condition; still, nobody wants to give up "Home, sweet home." That is natural psychology. So you have to manage. You see that why they, these Delhi passenger clerks . . . this morning I was telling that son was asking mother, "Who is this man?" His father, and he had never seen. "You have seen father." No, rather, he had no chance to see father because when the father comes back from the office it is night, ten o'clock or more than that. That time the son is sleeping. And again he has to go early in the morning. That time also, son is sleeping. So he did not know. So one Sunday, when he's grown up, he is asking his mother, "Who is this man?" "So this man . . ." Not only in India—everywhere. I have seen in New York from the other island? What is that? Long Island. Eh? Long Island. Long Island. They are coming two hours in the ferry, three hours in the bus. They are going to the office. Eight hours there. Then five hours and eight hours, thirteen hours, again five hours. Then thirteen and . . . eighteen hours. And for six hours they have got home. "Home, sweet home." I knew people coming from Poona to Bombay to work. Just see. All the way from Poona. One and the same thing. *The home attachment is so great. These Delhi passengers, they are coming, hanging, and there are so many accidents daily. And few hours he will live with wife. That is his home. And whole other, out of twenty*-four hours, seventeen hours are outside, and maybe seven hours at home. But still, he'll come home. The home attachment is very big. Therefore we have to create attachment for this hari-saṅkīrtana . If you create that attachment, then they will give up home attachment, try life, to live here. Tathāsakti . You have to train them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in such a way. Then: *Tathāsakti . Then they will be attached here. Spiritually if you enlighten them, then they'll be attached. They'll voluntarily say they are accepting here. The chanting, chanting, then . . . this is the beginning that, "You chant and take prasādam ." Then ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Gradually the heart will be cleansed, and gradually they will be elevated to the platform of āsakti . Then they will not want money, they will not want . . . then they will live here, work, just you are doing. That stage, that requires little advancement. Therefore I say this kīrtana program must be continued. Then ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam . As you make the heart cleansed, they become more and more advanced. And then this stage of āsakti that, "This is . . . we shall live here." Just like we have given up our hearth and home and wife and children. We have given up that attachment. This attachment, practical. That is . . . you cannot expect immediately. That is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). When one gets better attachment, then they can give up this nasty attachment. Therefore we have to continue this saṅkīrtana . This is the psychology. But there is very great prospect to develop this place, and you have got experience. If you can develop, it will be very nice example. Once successful here, we can introduce this program. And India will be easier because they are by nature inclined to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will be easier. The kīrtana must be there. Otherwise, why we have to take so much responsibility? Last night it was very hard. Again, no one was coming to the kīrtana . Eh? These persons who are staying here in the garb of devotees, if they don't come . . . Devotees. No one would come. It was a great struggle. Again Jagadīśa and I and Mūrti, we were alone there, and we had to go and get people, and again they wouldn't come. So what is the use? This Kṛṣṇan wouldn't come, and this other boy never comes. They should be made to leave. Otherwise they must follow the program. Kīrtana is so nice. All day we may be doing something. The only relief we get, from kīrtana . No, without kīrtana , it is . . . Refreshes you completely. If you stop kīrtana , then it is ordinary. Work. Yes. And these people are very enthusiastic for kīrtana . So our men should be, those who are here, they must be very enthusiastic. And the paṇḍāl , what is this play paṇḍāl ? This paṇḍāl ? It is very small. Make a big paṇḍāl . But if you want every day, we should buy one. Buy one. Good one. Yes. Make it over there, permanent place. With permanent speakers, permanent lights and . . . Oh, yes. Yes. We should have every night. Do. Prabhupāda wants us to continue every day kīrtana and prasādam . So do this and purchase. What is the price? I'll find out tomorrow. Yes. Do it nicely, enthusiastically. Everything will be success. So any other question to discuss? I don't know if this is the time, but I think this project should have a separate account. Yes. It will have an account in the name of the Trust. The Venkatesh . . . I mean ISKCON Venkateshwara Trust. So as soon as we register tomorrow, day after tomorrow we'll open an account in that name. With how many signees? Make three, you three. Joint. Out of three, two. Out of three, any two will do. That's all. And amount which will be given from Your Divine Grace will be a loan towards the Trust, which will be paid back later on. Yes. Māyāpur account you take. I ask them to transfer to this account. And when you want to pay . . . Yes, then they transfer That's all. That will be . . . do that. So open account. And also that lakh of rupees which I gave him last year. Yes, that is his. The temple should pay it. Yes, that one lakh rupees I will pay from the four and a half lakhs . You told me to put it everything into your account. So should I put the four and a half lakhs into your account, or should I put one lakh in this account and then three and a half . . . Anyway, give him. That's all. Anyway. Okay. Otherwise give me, and I give him. It was meant for here. See, we gave it from Germany for the project. Yes. Yes, that is understood. So that can go into this one. Yes. It can go directly into this account. So immediately open account, and whatever minimum you want, I will give you. That's all. And three signatories. Out of three, two. Yes. Prabhupāda, if we're going to have a permanent paṇḍāl for visitors, why don't we build some simple kīrtana hall where the people can also take prasādam , something like they built in Māyāpur but not . . . Do it . . . do it gradually. For the time being have a paṇḍāl . Yes. Yes, for the time being. That could be used for kīrtana and prasādam . Yes. That you told me just now, at that site where we have the permanent temple. That, tomorrow morning we shall see and make a . . . A design. *One more question. When . . . the first time you were here two years ago, you suggested that we should have Gaura*-Nitāi Deity immediately. *Yes. Nṛsiṁha*-deva, Gaura-Nitāi and Jagannātha. Right here? Yes. Shall we begin right here? We have this little place . . . Yes. Yes. *I have a set of Gaura*-Nitāis with me from the bus, but They're smaller. So immediately install. Immediately. Yes. And have regular kīrtana and ārati . Deity must be there. That will be our engagement. That's all right. Enthusiasm. Real thing is enthusiasm, utsāhān. Dhairya , patience. And . . . Determination. Determination: "Yes, I must do it." And here, if you make determination, everything is there. Everything is there. Such a vast land, and capital Kṛṣṇa will give. Land, labor. Labor is there. So simply organization required, that's all. Then everything is all right. Make use the production. First of all eat yourself as much as you . . . and then trade. Get money. People will be surprised at the organization. And there are twenty thousand men all round? No, that is . . . just in very near villages there's about eight thousand. That's all right. So if you can make one thousand person interested, then you'll be successful. So you can engage some worker for cutting the rocks. Yes. Tomorrow I am arranging. In this Dabilpur there's some very good workers. I saw in the village. They have so many places where there are rocks stacked up. And they have many craftsmen in that Dabilpur. That's the main village in this area. They have them there, just near Mr . . . that Anjaya Reddy's house. This house, the blocks are prepared, you make huts and engage some men to make that tile. Tiles. Round tiles. Yes. The roof tiles. Yes, just like the ones which are in the temple. Then locally you get everything. You haven't got to get from outside. Eh? Clay roof tiles. Yes. It is very nice, very strong and very comfortable and simple. (sounds of children) So the villagers have come? Yes, it sounds like it. Their children. By themselves they were doing this kīrtana . Is somebody leading kīrtana now? The children. We should go. Let's go. Sit down daily and make next program. Then it will be success. Jaya Prabhupāda. Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Conversation -- December 16, 1976, Hyderabad Don't take that I am simply paying agent. Is that all right, that I shall simply go on paying? No. You have got so many trustees, and you all trustees and managing trustee and this trustee, and for payment I am responsible. Even for purchasing . . . (indistinct) . . . what is this? I did not say at that time, but I talked this morning to them that what is this? I shall pay everything, and you are all big, big trustees? So you give me in writing that including the four lakhs already paid. Already, I am a debtor, and plus this money, whatever I shall, you shall return me within three years. Where is that letter? I can get it typed. Get it typed. Let me see it. This is, ah . . . No, no, I can read. You can write letter. Bank of Rajasthan. What is it? Yes, this was fixed deposit which was in Madras, and since there is nobody in Madras now, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa wanted to transfer that amount to BBT in Bombay. So he told me to get it done. And both the signers, Mahābuddhi and Śyāmānanda, are not available. So if you dictate to the bank as founder- ācārya of ISKCON, then they will send the money and I will direct it to BBT. This is the amount that Gopāla Kṛṣṇa was mentioning in his letter that we read last night that's supposed to go to the BBT. *Manager, Bank of Rajasthan, Madras. (break) You cannot avoid it. If you actually want people to be happy, if you actually want world peaceful situation, you have to take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Otherwise all your attempts will be failure. Because even Mahatma Gandhi, such a great personality, he did not take Bhagavad-gītā as it is—therefore he was also failure, what to speak of us. Then we are going to take . . . few of us are going to take it very seriously. Kindly do that. You can do that. You have got influence, you have got intelligence, you have got the mind, you have got the appreciative power. Therefore, I am asking you amongst our . . . it will be . . . take, for example, our Indian government is secular. So who can be greater secular than our . . . (break) Actually, better become Muhammadan. Therefore, so many Muhammadans. Otherwise they are not imported. They are not imported. They are all over the Indus. Yes. (aside) What is that? Aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣāḥ ( BG 9.3)? Not that. In Sixteenth Chapter there is verse, that janmani janmani. Oh. Oh. (break) And the Congress procession was organized just in front of my shop. And they are coming, sitting, and then the procession began, the civil disobedience. In 19 . . . 30. 1930. When the salt protest began. In 1938. No. Sometimes in 1930, '30 or '31, like that. 1931. When are you coming back? That I do not know, but there is . . . From there? I am going to Hardwar. I may be going to Bombay or Bhubaneswar. That Bhubaneswar man came yesterday. I am thinking of constructing a temple there. When you go to Bhubaneswar? After you go to Delhi? Delhi, I have no immediate program. . . . (indistinct) There is no fixed program now. I would like to help to Delhi . . . (indistinct) Immediately I am engaged in so many things. If you like, you can talk only. How many go to Delhi . . . (indistinct) . . .? *It is stated in this Bhagavad*-gītā that Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ —saintly kings understood. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So this is not meant for the loafer class of men. Rājarṣi. He must be head of the government, at the same time a saintly person. Then he can understand. Vaiśiṣṭa. *Vaiśiṣṭa. Yes. I have given the Bhagavad*-gītā is only understood by paramparā . So our rājarṣi is . . . practically there is no rājarṣi . Rāja-rṣi. He is called rājarṣi. It is not for loafer class of men. Then people will be benefited. If the head of the state understands that this is essential, then people will be . . . yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). Evetaro janaḥ . Those who are in the subordinate grade, they follow the leaders. So the leaders have given up this science. So how the subordinate class, they will appreciate? They must understand the spirit of Bhagavad-gītā , how it is essential, how people will be happy by following the instruction. Unless rājarṣi understands, how the people? So actually if she wants blessing, the blessing is already there: Bhagavad-gītā . And if she gives some time, we can make her convinced that this is essential. Without this, there is no question of peace and prosperity. There is no question. I think that these contents are essential. All these contents are explained with reference to Bhagavad-gītā , no other. Arjuna is the real . . . (indistinct) Yes. So vijñāna , the knowledge is given by Kṛṣṇa. And how Arjuna has taken it? If we compare these two things and take it, then it is real success. And if we imagine which is not confirmed by Arjuna or Kṛṣṇa, then that is concoction; it will never help you. That is going on. Everyone is imagining some way of thinking, and that will not help. She needs your blessings. Ah? She needs your blessings. Mrs. Gandhi needs your blessings in her life. A person like you should bless her; she needs . . . Personally I welcome this Emergency. I welcome. This autocracy we welcome. But the autocrat must be rājarṣi . Then we can have full faith. If this . . . just like this child. The child sleeps very calmly on the lap of the mother because the child knows that, "I am very safe on the lap of my mother." Is it not? The same child in another's lap, he will cry, because he thinks that, "I am not safe." Similarly, this autocracy, or this Emergency, whatever you call, one man's, what is that, is good provided people think, "Now we are safe." Otherwise it is very serious. People have a feeling that they are safe. No. I say the people have faith. But to create that faith, one must be very ideal. One thing about her, what she is doing is really wonderful but . . . (indistinct) . . . discipline has come. *No, this can be done provided she understands Bhagavad*-gītā and introduces the method. Then there will be no more. That is why I think a meeting, both of you, and you bless her and advise her . . . (indistinct) *Blessing is already there, Bhagavad*-gītā —authorized. Even big, big politicians before her . . . I think Jawaharlal Nehru also commented, Discovery of India, Bhagavad-gītā . And Gandhi was accepted, Tilak accepted. They have written something; *therefore they accepted. So why not accept it seriously? Why she is appreciating? That is my point. If you appreciate Bhagavad*-gītā is authority, why not take it seriously? And so far these untouchables, Bhagavad-gītā never says untouchables. Bhagavad-gītā says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonis are untouchable. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . So why not . . . there is no question of untouchable. "Anyone who comes to Me, actually, seriously," te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . Parāṁ gatim , highest perfection of life, if one goes, then where is pāpa-yoni ? Not only that, in the Bhagavat , Śukadeva Gosvāmī says the caṇḍālas , kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā . . . (indistinct) . . . śudhyanti , they can be cleaned by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So in the śāstra there is sanction. Nārada Muni says in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam (SB 7.11.35). To designate a person to which varṇa he belongs, there is symptom. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not that birth. Never says. That these symptoms, Nārada Muni says, if they are found, anyatra . Suppose the symptoms of a brāhmaṇa is found in a caṇḍāla . That caṇḍāla is no more caṇḍāla . Tat tenaiva vinirdiśet . Because he has acquired the qualification of a brāhmaṇa , he should not be called any more caṇḍāla; he should be called brāhmaṇa . Similarly, a brāhmaṇa , although he is born of a high family, but because he has associated with the qualities of a caṇḍāla , he should be called caṇḍāla . This is śāstric injunction. Śāstra never says by birth, stated like that. And that is practically being accepted. One man's qualification is concerned, not that in which family he is born. There are many instances— satyakam yavala . Just . . . (indistinct) No, I am doing practically. (indistinct) . . . you should come into the place. People should read about. Like Christians do that. Because this will go a long way, go a long way, that one person has spoke the truth, as it is, as you say—not manufactured. One person, one svāmī , Prabhupāda, spoke the truth. What he explains . . . (indistinct) . . . that this is qualification of the person. Brāhmaṇa could be a caṇḍāla , caṇḍāla could be a brāhmaṇa . That is why this practicing untouchable is a sin, a crime. Don't make . . . *There is one verse in which it is said, karmaṇā vaiśyatāṁ gataḥ (SB 9.2.23): by his work he became a vaiśya . Definitely it is said. Like Viśvāmitra. He was kṣatriya , he became brāhmaṇa . Mahārāja Ṛṣabhadeva, He had one hundred sons, kṣatriyas. His eighty*-one sons, they became kṣatriyas , and all others, they became brāhmaṇas . Navayogendra. There are many instances. And they were the king also. There is injuction to the brāhmaṇa that in time of difficulty, the brāhmaṇas , you can accept the position of a kṣatriya , you can accept the position of a vaiśya , but never accept the position of a śūdra . These are the injunctions. Why never accept the position of a śūdra ? Why? Because that is most abominable. I see. *It has been described, śūdra's position is just like dog. So you don't degrade to such position. Now if we study from that point of view Kali*-yuga, everyone śūdra. Because śūdra . . . yesterday some gentleman came, he is a physist—what is that? Physicist. So I said that, "You are a qualified person, but if you don't get a salary, then you cannot live." That is the position of śūdra . Brāhmaṇa , they live independently. Kṣatriya , they live independently. Vaiśya , they live independently. A śūdra cannot live independently. That is dog's position. A dog, if he does not get a good master, it is street dog. Therefore it is forbidden: don't become a dog from vaiśya (indistinct) . . . vaiśya , brāhmaṇa . . . (indistinct) *Therefore I say they are śūdra or less than śūdra . Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ . Kali-yuga. (indistinct Hindi) . . . he is Marwari. I have seen on the aeroplane one Marwari—no, I shall not say gentleman—(laughter) he was eating intestine of the hog. What is this called? Sausage. Sausage. And I have heard that when this preparation is made, it emanates so bad odor because it is full of stool—they have to get out stool—and then boil it. Is that palatable? . . . (indistinct) We have got four rules and regulations. . . . (indistinct) We don't eat any meat, fish or eggs, no intoxication, no illicit sex life, no gambling. (indistinct conversation) I want to see that you become a Vaiṣṇava, perfect, ideal. And your family members are very nice; *they can also follow. You have fine daughters, I have seen, very nice. And you are worshiping Bālajī. It is a great fortune. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Yeh Balaji keval namaskar hi kar loge toh tumhara bhaut bhala ho jayega aur kuch na bhi karo. (This is Balaji, if you just only pay obeisances you will be greatly benefitted even if you don't do anything else.) I was very glad to see Bālajī in your house. So bring here. (aside) I do not know who has taken them. I'll ask Hari-śauri. Hari-śauri. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, worldwide accepted. Why not India? Aur dusra rasta nahi hai. (There is no other way apart from this.) What is that verse? Janmani janmani ? Yes. "Taking repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence." (end) Conversation -- December 16, 1976, Hyderabad Don't take that I am simply paying agent. Is that all right, that I shall simply go on paying? No. You have got so many trustees, and you all trustees and managing trustee and this trustee, and for payment I am responsible. Even for purchasing . . . (indistinct) . . . what is this? I did not say at that time, but I talked this morning to them that what is this? I shall pay everything, and you are all big, big trustees? So you give me in writing that including the four lakhs already paid. Already, I am a debtor, and plus this money, whatever I shall, you shall return me within three years. Where is that letter? I can get it typed. Get it typed. Let me see it. This is, ah . . . No, no, I can read. You can write letter. Bank of Rajasthan. What is it? Yes, this was fixed deposit which was in Madras, and since there is nobody in Madras now, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa wanted to transfer that amount to BBT in Bombay. So he told me to get it done. And both the signers, Mahābuddhi and Śyāmānanda, are not available. So if you dictate to the bank as founder- ācārya of ISKCON, then they will send the money and I will direct it to BBT. This is the amount that Gopāla Kṛṣṇa was mentioning in his letter that we read last night that's supposed to go to the BBT. *Manager, Bank of Rajasthan, Madras. (break) You cannot avoid it. If you actually want people to be happy, if you actually want world peaceful situation, you have to take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Otherwise all your attempts will be failure. Because even Mahatma Gandhi, such a great personality, he did not take Bhagavad-gītā as it is—therefore he was also failure, what to speak of us. Then we are going to take . . . few of us are going to take it very seriously. Kindly do that. You can do that. You have got influence, you have got intelligence, you have got the mind, you have got the appreciative power. Therefore, I am asking you amongst our . . . it will be . . . take, for example, our Indian government is secular. So who can be greater secular than our . . . (break) Actually, better become Muhammadan. Therefore, so many Muhammadans. Otherwise they are not imported. They are not imported. They are all over the Indus. Yes. (aside) What is that? Aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣāḥ ( BG 9.3)? Not that. In Sixteenth Chapter there is verse, that janmani janmani. Oh. Oh. (break) And the Congress procession was organized just in front of my shop. And they are coming, sitting, and then the procession began, the civil disobedience. In 19 . . . 30. 1930. When the salt protest began. In 1938. No. Sometimes in 1930, '30 or '31, like that. 1931. When are you coming back? That I do not know, but there is . . . From there? I am going to Hardwar. I may be going to Bombay or Bhubaneswar. That Bhubaneswar man came yesterday. I am thinking of constructing a temple there. When you go to Bhubaneswar? After you go to Delhi? Delhi, I have no immediate program. . . . (indistinct) There is no fixed program now. I would like to help to Delhi . . . (indistinct) Immediately I am engaged in so many things. If you like, you can talk only. How many go to Delhi . . . (indistinct) . . .? *It is stated in this Bhagavad*-gītā that Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ —saintly kings understood. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So this is not meant for the loafer class of men. Rājarṣi. He must be head of the government, at the same time a saintly person. Then he can understand. Vaiśiṣṭa. *Vaiśiṣṭa. Yes. I have given the Bhagavad*-gītā is only understood by paramparā . So our rājarṣi is . . . practically there is no rājarṣi . Rāja-rṣi. He is called rājarṣi. It is not for loafer class of men. Then people will be benefited. If the head of the state understands that this is essential, then people will be . . . yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). Evetaro janaḥ . Those who are in the subordinate grade, they follow the leaders. So the leaders have given up this science. So how the subordinate class, they will appreciate? They must understand the spirit of Bhagavad-gītā , how it is essential, how people will be happy by following the instruction. Unless rājarṣi understands, how the people? So actually if she wants blessing, the blessing is already there: Bhagavad-gītā . And if she gives some time, we can make her convinced that this is essential. Without this, there is no question of peace and prosperity. There is no question. I think that these contents are essential. All these contents are explained with reference to Bhagavad-gītā , no other. Arjuna is the real . . . (indistinct) Yes. So vijñāna , the knowledge is given by Kṛṣṇa. And how Arjuna has taken it? If we compare these two things and take it, then it is real success. And if we imagine which is not confirmed by Arjuna or Kṛṣṇa, then that is concoction; it will never help you. That is going on. Everyone is imagining some way of thinking, and that will not help. She needs your blessings. Ah? She needs your blessings. Mrs. Gandhi needs your blessings in her life. A person like you should bless her; she needs . . . Personally I welcome this Emergency. I welcome. This autocracy we welcome. But the autocrat must be rājarṣi . Then we can have full faith. If this . . . just like this child. The child sleeps very calmly on the lap of the mother because the child knows that, "I am very safe on the lap of my mother." Is it not? The same child in another's lap, he will cry, because he thinks that, "I am not safe." Similarly, this autocracy, or this Emergency, whatever you call, one man's, what is that, is good provided people think, "Now we are safe." Otherwise it is very serious. People have a feeling that they are safe. No. I say the people have faith. But to create that faith, one must be very ideal. One thing about her, what she is doing is really wonderful but . . . (indistinct) . . . discipline has come. *No, this can be done provided she understands Bhagavad*-gītā and introduces the method. Then there will be no more. That is why I think a meeting, both of you, and you bless her and advise her . . . (indistinct) *Blessing is already there, Bhagavad*-gītā —authorized. Even big, big politicians before her . . . I think Jawaharlal Nehru also commented, Discovery of India, Bhagavad-gītā . And Gandhi was accepted, Tilak accepted. They have written something; *therefore they accepted. So why not accept it seriously? Why she is appreciating? That is my point. If you appreciate Bhagavad*-gītā is authority, why not take it seriously? And so far these untouchables, Bhagavad-gītā never says untouchables. Bhagavad-gītā says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonis are untouchable. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . So why not . . . there is no question of untouchable. "Anyone who comes to Me, actually, seriously," te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . Parāṁ gatim , highest perfection of life, if one goes, then where is pāpa-yoni ? Not only that, in the Bhagavat , Śukadeva Gosvāmī says the caṇḍālas , kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā . . . (indistinct) . . . śudhyanti , they can be cleaned by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So in the śāstra there is sanction. Nārada Muni says in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam (SB 7.11.35). To designate a person to which varṇa he belongs, there is symptom. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not that birth. Never says. That these symptoms, Nārada Muni says, if they are found, anyatra . Suppose the symptoms of a brāhmaṇa is found in a caṇḍāla . That caṇḍāla is no more caṇḍāla . Tat tenaiva vinirdiśet . Because he has acquired the qualification of a brāhmaṇa , he should not be called any more caṇḍāla; he should be called brāhmaṇa . Similarly, a brāhmaṇa , although he is born of a high family, but because he has associated with the qualities of a caṇḍāla , he should be called caṇḍāla . This is śāstric injunction. Śāstra never says by birth, stated like that. And that is practically being accepted. One man's qualification is concerned, not that in which family he is born. There are many instances— satyakam yavala . Just . . . (indistinct) No, I am doing practically. (indistinct) . . . you should come into the place. People should read about. Like Christians do that. Because this will go a long way, go a long way, that one person has spoke the truth, as it is, as you say—not manufactured. One person, one svāmī , Prabhupāda, spoke the truth. What he explains . . . (indistinct) . . . that this is qualification of the person. Brāhmaṇa could be a caṇḍāla , caṇḍāla could be a brāhmaṇa . That is why this practicing untouchable is a sin, a crime. Don't make . . . *There is one verse in which it is said, karmaṇā vaiśyatāṁ gataḥ (SB 9.2.23): by his work he became a vaiśya . Definitely it is said. Like Viśvāmitra. He was kṣatriya , he became brāhmaṇa . Mahārāja Ṛṣabhadeva, He had one hundred sons, kṣatriyas. His eighty*-one sons, they became kṣatriyas , and all others, they became brāhmaṇas . Navayogendra. There are many instances. And they were the king also. There is injuction to the brāhmaṇa that in time of difficulty, the brāhmaṇas , you can accept the position of a kṣatriya , you can accept the position of a vaiśya , but never accept the position of a śūdra . These are the injunctions. Why never accept the position of a śūdra ? Why? Because that is most abominable. I see. *It has been described, śūdra's position is just like dog. So you don't degrade to such position. Now if we study from that point of view Kali*-yuga, everyone śūdra. Because śūdra . . . yesterday some gentleman came, he is a physist—what is that? Physicist. So I said that, "You are a qualified person, but if you don't get a salary, then you cannot live." That is the position of śūdra . Brāhmaṇa , they live independently. Kṣatriya , they live independently. Vaiśya , they live independently. A śūdra cannot live independently. That is dog's position. A dog, if he does not get a good master, it is street dog. Therefore it is forbidden: don't become a dog from vaiśya (indistinct) . . . vaiśya , brāhmaṇa . . . (indistinct) *Therefore I say they are śūdra or less than śūdra . Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ . Kali-yuga. (indistinct Hindi) . . . he is Marwari. I have seen on the aeroplane one Marwari—no, I shall not say gentleman—(laughter) he was eating intestine of the hog. What is this called? Sausage. Sausage. And I have heard that when this preparation is made, it emanates so bad odor because it is full of stool—they have to get out stool—and then boil it. Is that palatable? . . . (indistinct) We have got four rules and regulations. . . . (indistinct) We don't eat any meat, fish or eggs, no intoxication, no illicit sex life, no gambling. (indistinct conversation) I want to see that you become a Vaiṣṇava, perfect, ideal. And your family members are very nice; *they can also follow. You have fine daughters, I have seen, very nice. And you are worshiping Bālajī. It is a great fortune. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Yeh Balaji keval namaskar hi kar loge toh tumhara bhaut bhala ho jayega aur kuch na bhi karo. (This is Balaji, if you just only pay obeisances you will be greatly benefitted even if you don't do anything else.) I was very glad to see Bālajī in your house. So bring here. (aside) I do not know who has taken them. I'll ask Hari-śauri. Hari-śauri. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, worldwide accepted. Why not India? Aur dusra rasta nahi hai. (There is no other way apart from this.) What is that verse? Janmani janmani ? Yes. "Taking repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence." (end) Arrival -- December 20, 1976, Bombay ( kīrtana welcoming Prabhupāda at the Bombay Airport) Girirāja? Who's got the baggage? Ah? Somebody's got to get the baggage. I'll get it. ( kīrtana ends) Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! (in car) Look at this. Bridge ka neeche se jaoge na? (You will go from under the bridge, will you not?) He is leading. Yes. He speaks fluent Hindi, this boy, Bilvamaṅgala. He is married Indian wife? Yes, he is the fellow who married that actress's sister. They are living together? But they are not living in the temple. They are living outside. They are living together but outside. Wife maintaining the husband? Pardon? Wife maintaining the husband? *Yes. Her family has given them house. . . . nahi*-nahi. (. . . no, no.) (aside) This would have been a shorter cut, I think. Whose car this is? *This is one of our Life Members' friend's. He is like a devotee, Jasbir. Nanda*-kumāra Mahārāja just arrived with Radha Fahavar (chuckles). What is his dress? He is a sannyasi . (chuckles) He arrived this morning in Delhi, this evening in Bombay. Hah. Everything is all right? Yes. Everything is going very nicely. We've arranged . . . Yes. Car is very nice. Very nice. We made a palanquin, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think it's not very good, so we're . . . how did the meeting go yesterday . . . today? Yes, it was very successful. (laughing) Thanks. Crushed. Crushed. But they won't change, these Māyāvādīs. (indistinct) . . . will say that you are not on the right party. Yes. Motorcycle ours? Yes. It's ours, one of our devotees. He lives outside. He has a motorcycle, so I thought he can escort motorcycle first. (calling to somebody) Bele! There is red light on the front? There is one red light that doesn't work. (indistinct) . . . at least it scares everyone, putting a red light in the . . . (indistinct) Is there a garage? There is a garage, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the temple where it is being built, and Mr. Gonia told me it will be ready in three or four days. He is getting all cleaned up. So we didn't want to build one because there is one there we can get. I spoke about that today. Our first book which you had told me to prepare showing us as a religious movement, it has come from the printer, looks first class. Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Movement Is Authorized , it's the Indian version. You told me to produce it in Vṛndāvana, it just came from the printers. Looks very, very nice, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And we are doing a similar one with only with s . . . little different, which shows us as a cultural movement. Plane was a little late. Yes. One hour. It arrived late. Bombay is always opulent. Yes. India's first city. *Yes. Rādhā*-vallabhā was telling me that he likes Bombay. Ah. I told them him are getting such cheap printing rates we may be moving a lot of printing to Bombay. He said he'll come and stay here. You are for the first time to Bombay? I was only in the airport before. I have never actually seen the temple. Very nice. What is the news of Los Angeles? You are coming from Los Angeles or New York? From Los Angeles. They are having the Christmas distribution now, big book distribution of the year. About that opposition movement? I can't hear. About the opposition movement. Yes. The devotees dress up like Santa Claus and go out and distribute books. Now all the other Santa Clauses, the karmī Santa Clauses, are complaining. To the police? So our devotee Santa Clauses are getting arrested. So we had a press conference with the devotee Santa Claus and another devotee preaching to everyone. It was very successful. Prabhupāda meant with the opposition with the parents, that case. That court case. In Chicago? No. From Los Angeles, that girl. In Los Angeles, it's all very favorable. Ask him. What's happening in Chicago? Chicago with the boy? Yeah. Rāmeśvara and Satsvarūpa and some others met in Chicago. It's being taken care of. The boy is in Chicago with his mother. Hmm. One of the sadajīs , he rented that bus for the devotees. He's a sadajī but he's like a devotee. He comes every day. (discussing quietly, out of Prabhupada's hearing) Harikeśa is GBC for Germany and Eastern Europe. The New York protest is doing all right? The New York protest? One hasn't happened yet. There's not really much more in New York till the case is solved. You have the manuscripts or does Pradyumna? Pradyumna. He had them. He had up to the Sixteenth Chapter is complete, but I don't know how he was going to send them. There is in the Hyderabad farm, so then he didn't come to Wardha with us. He is coming directly to Bombay and his wife. He should be here tomorrow. We need those manuscripts if we're going to get the book done Yeah. We have finished Eighth Canto, Volume Three. Hmm? Eighth Canto, Volume Three is finished. It should be here in a few days. Eighth Canto, Part . . .? Three. (aside) There was a book that was sent with some electrical apparatus. It was sent to Delhi, and they can't get it cleared from the Customs. Electrical appliance? Electrical, yeah, that's what they have said. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja knows about it. There were some books, a book that was also sent to Prabhupāda. Is it cleared? No, they can't get it cleared because we have to pay so much duty on it. Oh, the electrical. Did you get the shaver? I got some stuff. The last I got was from Jāmuna. Well, did you get the shaver? For Prabhupāda? Yes. What kind was it? Well, I wrote it down. I sent you one. . . . (indistinct) That's what it is, then. I got another one from . . . (indistinct) . . . some new books? Did Prabhupada get one through? That's what it is then. They sent you some new books. I just found out from Hari-śauri that they never cleared Customs. Really? First Canto, Part Three. The reason is you sent them with some electrical apparatus. It was a new shaver for Prabhupāda. Yeah. They wouldn't let you clear it? Didn't Hari-śauri tell you people not to send any electrical apparatus? Yes, they should not be mixed. It's almost impossible to get it through Customs. They mixed up everything. When you leave the country maybe you can clear it out. What burnt out was the recharger. That's all? Yeah, the shaver's all right. (laughs) If you can get that shaver and take it back with you, in case you . . . (indistinct) Oh, right. Actually, the recharger's working now again. It was almost burnt out. To get . . . what I wanted was a recharger that works off of 220 volts . . . (indistinct) . . . how's Rakṣaṇa doing? He's getting his leg amputated. Yeah. I sent him a letter, you know, with a picture of Prabhupāda from Paris, and . . . (break) (end) Arrival -- December 20, 1976, Bombay ( kīrtana welcoming Prabhupāda at the Bombay Airport) Girirāja? Who's got the baggage? Ah? Somebody's got to get the baggage. I'll get it. ( kīrtana ends) Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! (in car) Look at this. Bridge ka neeche se jaoge na? (You will go from under the bridge, will you not?) He is leading. Yes. He speaks fluent Hindi, this boy, Bilvamaṅgala. He is married Indian wife? Yes, he is the fellow who married that actress's sister. They are living together? But they are not living in the temple. They are living outside. They are living together but outside. Wife maintaining the husband? Pardon? Wife maintaining the husband? *Yes. Her family has given them house. . . . nahi*-nahi. (. . . no, no.) (aside) This would have been a shorter cut, I think. Whose car this is? *This is one of our Life Members' friend's. He is like a devotee, Jasbir. Nanda*-kumāra Mahārāja just arrived with Radha Fahavar (chuckles). What is his dress? He is a sannyasi . (chuckles) He arrived this morning in Delhi, this evening in Bombay. Hah. Everything is all right? Yes. Everything is going very nicely. We've arranged . . . Yes. Car is very nice. Very nice. We made a palanquin, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think it's not very good, so we're . . . how did the meeting go yesterday . . . today? Yes, it was very successful. (laughing) Thanks. Crushed. Crushed. But they won't change, these Māyāvādīs. (indistinct) . . . will say that you are not on the right party. Yes. Motorcycle ours? Yes. It's ours, one of our devotees. He lives outside. He has a motorcycle, so I thought he can escort motorcycle first. (calling to somebody) Bele! There is red light on the front? There is one red light that doesn't work. (indistinct) . . . at least it scares everyone, putting a red light in the . . . (indistinct) Is there a garage? There is a garage, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the temple where it is being built, and Mr. Gonia told me it will be ready in three or four days. He is getting all cleaned up. So we didn't want to build one because there is one there we can get. I spoke about that today. Our first book which you had told me to prepare showing us as a religious movement, it has come from the printer, looks first class. Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Movement Is Authorized , it's the Indian version. You told me to produce it in Vṛndāvana, it just came from the printers. Looks very, very nice, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And we are doing a similar one with only with s . . . little different, which shows us as a cultural movement. Plane was a little late. Yes. One hour. It arrived late. Bombay is always opulent. Yes. India's first city. *Yes. Rādhā*-vallabhā was telling me that he likes Bombay. Ah. I told them him are getting such cheap printing rates we may be moving a lot of printing to Bombay. He said he'll come and stay here. You are for the first time to Bombay? I was only in the airport before. I have never actually seen the temple. Very nice. What is the news of Los Angeles? You are coming from Los Angeles or New York? From Los Angeles. They are having the Christmas distribution now, big book distribution of the year. About that opposition movement? I can't hear. About the opposition movement. Yes. The devotees dress up like Santa Claus and go out and distribute books. Now all the other Santa Clauses, the karmī Santa Clauses, are complaining. To the police? So our devotee Santa Clauses are getting arrested. So we had a press conference with the devotee Santa Claus and another devotee preaching to everyone. It was very successful. Prabhupāda meant with the opposition with the parents, that case. That court case. In Chicago? No. From Los Angeles, that girl. In Los Angeles, it's all very favorable. Ask him. What's happening in Chicago? Chicago with the boy? Yeah. Rāmeśvara and Satsvarūpa and some others met in Chicago. It's being taken care of. The boy is in Chicago with his mother. Hmm. One of the sadajīs , he rented that bus for the devotees. He's a sadajī but he's like a devotee. He comes every day. (discussing quietly, out of Prabhupada's hearing) Harikeśa is GBC for Germany and Eastern Europe. The New York protest is doing all right? The New York protest? One hasn't happened yet. There's not really much more in New York till the case is solved. You have the manuscripts or does Pradyumna? Pradyumna. He had them. He had up to the Sixteenth Chapter is complete, but I don't know how he was going to send them. There is in the Hyderabad farm, so then he didn't come to Wardha with us. He is coming directly to Bombay and his wife. He should be here tomorrow. We need those manuscripts if we're going to get the book done Yeah. We have finished Eighth Canto, Volume Three. Hmm? Eighth Canto, Volume Three is finished. It should be here in a few days. Eighth Canto, Part . . .? Three. (aside) There was a book that was sent with some electrical apparatus. It was sent to Delhi, and they can't get it cleared from the Customs. Electrical appliance? Electrical, yeah, that's what they have said. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja knows about it. There were some books, a book that was also sent to Prabhupāda. Is it cleared? No, they can't get it cleared because we have to pay so much duty on it. Oh, the electrical. Did you get the shaver? I got some stuff. The last I got was from Jāmuna. Well, did you get the shaver? For Prabhupāda? Yes. What kind was it? Well, I wrote it down. I sent you one. . . . (indistinct) That's what it is, then. I got another one from . . . (indistinct) . . . some new books? Did Prabhupada get one through? That's what it is then. They sent you some new books. I just found out from Hari-śauri that they never cleared Customs. Really? First Canto, Part Three. The reason is you sent them with some electrical apparatus. It was a new shaver for Prabhupāda. Yeah. They wouldn't let you clear it? Didn't Hari-śauri tell you people not to send any electrical apparatus? Yes, they should not be mixed. It's almost impossible to get it through Customs. They mixed up everything. When you leave the country maybe you can clear it out. What burnt out was the recharger. That's all? Yeah, the shaver's all right. (laughs) If you can get that shaver and take it back with you, in case you . . . (indistinct) Oh, right. Actually, the recharger's working now again. It was almost burnt out. To get . . . what I wanted was a recharger that works off of 220 volts . . . (indistinct) . . . how's Rakṣaṇa doing? He's getting his leg amputated. Yeah. I sent him a letter, you know, with a picture of Prabhupāda from Paris, and . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- December 22, 1976, Poona Because you cannot do like this. Kṛṣṇa says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya ( BG 7.7): "Nobody is superior than Me." That is Kṛṣṇa. Are you able to become superior of everyone? That is so, but how is that creator? His own creation went against and Kṛṣṇa became after His creation to worship and become devotees of superior . . . Isiliye, (That is why,) For this reason Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). One who knows what are the activities of Kṛṣṇa, he is liberated. So, So to understand Kṛṣṇa tattvataḥ , is not possible for ordinary person. Why this trying to understand Kṛṣṇa? Why not try to understand one's self? Kṛṣṇa passed five thousand years ago. Now ashes are there in our hands. Why not . . . That means you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is . . . why Kṛṣṇa? You are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. You are nitya , nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So you are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, you are nitya. Why do you say Kṛṣṇa existed five thousand years ago? He is existing always. Always existing there. Then the past is . . . (indistinct) . . . within you, within oneself. No, no. You are also nitya , but you are part and parcel of that nitya . Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God is nitya , you are also nitya ; God is also living, you are also living. What is the difference between the two? That one person, He is maintaining all of us. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . So this is knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. God is one. I am also individual. But we are many because we are all living entities. But God is one. We are controlled by God or God's nature. We are not one. Aren't we the images of God? Apart from images . . . that is another thing. That we shall describe later on. First of all you cannot claim that you are God, because you are under the control of material nature. You said part and parcel of God. Part and parcel, just like the finger is part and parcel of my body, but it is not the whole body. It is the body. It is body, you can say that, but part of it. Part of my body. All enjoined together, it makes the whole body. If it is separated . . . That's all right. But still you say it is aṅguli (finger). It is not the body. Aṅguli . (laughs) It is one part, to say many. *No. You should be . . . should be senses. Just like this aṅguli , I am asking, "Do like this?" It is my servant. After all, it is part of the body, it is my servant. If it cannot serve my body, then it is diseased. Similarly we are part and parcel of God. If we cannot serve God, that is our diseased condition. The same example: This finger is part and parcel of my body. But I ask finger, "Please come here, to my nostrils." If it cannot do, then it is diseased. It is not in normal condition. So anyone who does not serve the whole, part and whole, he is diseased. He is not in normal condition. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇera dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Therefore because we have forgotten this relationship with God, declared ourself as God, that is diseased condition. Therefore God comes and He orders, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66): "Surrender unto Me. Don't talk nonsense." That is God. So when we agree, that is our perfection. Not to artificially become God, but to agree to serve God. That is liberation. So what if the drop submerges in the ocean, then the identity of drop vanishes. No. Drop, when drop submerges with the ocean . . . *I will give you practical example. Just like you take red water, colored water. So put into the sea, does it mean that sea becomes red? That little spot may be for the time being. Besides that, merging, this is the philosophy of the Māyāvādīs. Actually that is superficial. Just like a bird, green bird, enters into the green tree. You see that bird is vanished. Because the tree is green and the bird is green, you do not know the separate identification. But the bird is there, separate identification. It is not the bird has become zero. A aeroplane goes to the sky, after some time you don't find the aeroplane. That doesn't mean the aeroplane has no more identity, separate. It is separate. It is your defective eyes that you cannot see that it has got separate existence. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that, "I, you and all these kings who are assembled here, we existed in the past, we are now existing, and we shall exist in the future." That means individual existence will continue. He explains past, present and future. So where is imagination? No imagination. But paraṁ pada , that is nirvāṇa , or whatever . . . Yes, paraṁ pada is just like you fly in the sky, go very high. So from here we cannot see that you are separately existing. But you are separately existing. It is my deficient eyes that I see that you are not. Identification will remain always? *Always. Therefore it is said in the śāstra , āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ anādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ , ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninaḥ . . . (SB 10.2.32). It is said, "My Lord, the lotus-eyed, vimukta-mānina , if somebody artificially is thinking that he has become liberated or merged into the existence, āruhya kṛcchreṇa , for which he has undergone very severe tapasya ," āruhya kṛcchreṇa . . . kṛcchreṇa means with great difficulty. Paraṁ padam , brahma-jyotir , patanti adhaḥ , "again he falls down," anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ . . . just like these rascals that are going in the sky to find out a place in the Mars and in the moon. And why they are coming back? If actually one has gone, then why he's coming back? To tell to the others that they saw something. *That's it. Similarly, you will find the so*-called sannyāsīs—not bhaktas —they undergo severe austerities, penances, but after some time they come to the worldly atmosphere. Because they could not get any place, therefore they come down. Just like the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs they say that this duniyā (world), jagat mithyā . If jagat is mithyā , you have left it, then why you come again to give some philanthropic service? If it is mithyā , then why you come again after so much? Is it not nonsense? If jagat is mithyā why you are coming again to this mithyā ? *That means you could not get place in the satya . Therefore you come down again. That is stated in the śāstra. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam (SB 10.2.32). Although with severe austerities and penances might go to the paraṁ pada , patanty adhaḥ , anādṛta*-yuṣmad , because he could not get shelter at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, he falls down. He must fall down to the material activities. Patanty adhaḥ . That is adho patha . As soon as a person, after undergoing severe austerities, becomes very highly elevated in the sannyāsa stage, but if he cannot get shelter at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then surely he shall fall down for these material activities, material enjoyment. That is the sign that he's fallen down. Lord Kṛṣṇa we have to see in a personal way, have to see the entirety as the . . . Lord Kṛṣṇa is everything. Nirākāra . *Why nirākāra ? He says " aham ." Every sentence in the Bhagavad*-gītā , He says " aham ." So how He is nirākāra ? Just like you, you are a person. When you say "I, I can do this," that is a person. Because I have no other alternative but to communicate. I can communicate only "I" and "you." There is no other way. No other way, therefore you are deficient. You cannot claim that you are God. Because you have no other way. You are forced by something. So somebody is controller upon you. Therefore you are different from the God. As you say: "I have no other way," that means you are dependent something else. But God can communicate differently? *Therefore God and you are different. That is dvaita*-vāda . You are different . . . Why at all this started even? Why at all, say millions, trillions years back, how it started that God created this world? Then all are one and different. Who created? God. So God is there. So God . . . you are created or you are subordinate to God? You are also there. So nitya , you are also existing eternally, and God is also eternally existing. But the difference between you and God is that God is maintaining everything and you are being maintained. That is the difference. You are one of the items which is maintained by God. As long as I continue my identity that, "I am so and so. I am this body," or "I am a person, or ātmā , seated in this body, or dwelling in this body," when I dislodge my body from ātmā , then what is the position? *You are different from the body. You are different from the body. You are soul. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This body is temporary, you are eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You are nityaḥ śāśvata . You are never killed, even after the destruction of the body. That should . . . that is real understanding that, "I am not this body. After annihilation of this body, I shall continue." Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). You should know that you are eternal part and parcel of God. God is eternal. Just like gold and a small particle of gold, both of them are gold. A small particle of gold, it is also gold, but not equal to the gold mine. That is real understanding. And because you are little gold . . . But potentiality? Potential different, because a lump of gold and a small particle of gold, the value is not the same. Gold it is quality, but not the value the same. That you cannot say. *Quality*-wise it is gold, but . . . *But quantity it is different. God is all*-pervading. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is all-pervading. He is in everyone's heart. Can you live in everyone's heart? Can you know what I am thinking? Then how you can become God? Well there are . . . There are fools, rascals. There are others. (laughter) But there are certain people who say that . . . *No, who says, they are rascals. They are rascals. We take them as rascals, that's all. How you can say that you are all*-pervading? Can you say that? Even if you are very highly elevated, can you say what I am thinking? Then how do you claim God? God is all-pervading. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). You have read Bhagavad-gītā . There are two kṣetra-jñas . One kṣetra-jña , just like I am, you are. They are kṣetra-jña . I know about my pains and pleasures of my body. You know. But I do not know what is pains and pleasure of your body; *you do not know what is pains and pleasure of my body. Therefore there is difference. But God knows. That is the difference between you and God. How you claim "God"? You do not know what is the pains and pleasures of my body. You know the pains and pleasures of your body. I know the pains and pleasures of my body. But either you or me, we do not know the pains and pleasures of all bodies. And Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata . He knows everyone's pains and pleasure. That is the difference between you and Him. But this is all right. As long as I maintain my identity . . . You have to. If you foolishly think that you have become one, that is your foolishness. Yes. That is foolish thinking. What if I submerge myself with the entire . . . Merge means you do not disagree. That is merge. Do not disagree. Just like when Arjuna was disagreeing, that is his condition, that is his . . . Identity. . . . conditioned identity. And when he agreed, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73)," that is identity of oneness. Surrender. Surrender. That is oneness. Not that individually he has become different. Individually he is, but he does not disagree with Kṛṣṇa. That is oneness. Just like we are sitting, we are of different interests. But so far my disciples are, they will not disagree with me. That is oneness. But he is individual. He was individual, he is individual, and he will continue his individuality. But as soon as he accepts me as the leader, then he is agreement. That is oneness. Agreement with God is surrender. Yes. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). To serve Kṛṣṇa favorably, that is oneness. That is oneness. *This is bhakti*-yoga . Any yoga . You are individual; God is individual. That is already explained, I told you. God says, Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, "Me, yourself and all these people who have gathered, they are all individuals. They were individuals in the past, they are individuals now, and we shall continue to remain individuals in the future." Even if we surrender. Surrender means agreement, that's all. Agreement. Individuality will all along exist. Otherwise why is He asking, "You surrender," unless there is individuality? Why this request is there? Because you are individual, you can deny it. That individuality continues. But if you have love for God, then you agree, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73)." So that is wanted. Not that he lost his individuality. Individuality is there. Individuality remains. It seems so, that the individuality remains. *And this is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says. What Kṛṣṇa says, you have to accept. Otherwise, what is the use of reading Bhagavad*-gītā ? You cannot accept Bhagavad-gītā through your whims. That is nonsense. You must accept as it is. That is wanted. This Satya Sai Baba, he is also disciple of Kṛṣṇa. How he produces . . .? Then if he is disciple of Kṛṣṇa, he would not have foolishly said that he is Bhagavān. That means he is bogus. It is bogus . . . you cannot say . . . if you are disciple . . . just like they are my disciples. They will never say that they are equal to me. They will never say. No, no, but what power he has got to produce just now . . .? That anyone can do, magic, jugglery. It has no meaning. He got, you know, this money. Oh, he can get anything, but that is . . . magic. That is . . . magician also knows. Professor Sarkar, a big magician, he kills . . . cuts people's body, then he joins them. So many things. Magic jugglery is . . . But there are some siddhis also. These siddhi , siddhis , some people. That is siddhi , magic also siddhi . You are successful businessman, that is also siddhi . That is also siddhi. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Even one is siddha , he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. That is said, yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Even one is siddha , still he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. He cannot understand . . .? Kṛṣṇa. But if he goes to āśrama , that where, and everybody sits there, the big Kṛṣṇa statue is there. In his room, personal room, Kṛṣṇa statue, and he has . . . If he is at all devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he will never say that he is Bhagavān. That is foolishness. That very assertion is foolishness. But Bhagavān, they don't call them Bhagavān. That they write in the books. They don't call, but write in the books. There was one article in the Blitz where it quoted him saying, "God is man, and man is God." He said he is the incarnation for this age. And where is the evidence? Anyone can say: "I am incarnation." (laughter) Any rascal can say. Anyone can say. (laughing) *What is the proof? Just like this Ramakrishna, he was an illiterate priest, and at the time of his death he said to Vivekananda that, "I am Kṛṣṇa, I am Lord Rāma," and he accepted. He accepted. Ye sab chalta hai. hum bol diya hum bhi bhagvan hain aur hum maan liye, usko kya maloom. ek aadmi bola hum bahut amir aur phata kapda pehna hai hum usko maan le . . . (All this is going on. I say I am God and people will believe, what does he know. One man says I am very rich and wears torn clothes, can we believe him . . .) Let him create one motorcar. Why he's asking, "Please, sir, give me car"? That's all. He is such a great man—bogus. People are foolish persons, they are deviated by these bogus rascals. That is going on . . . sastra me jo hai wo nahi mante hain. Ṣaḍ*-aiśvarya-pūrṇam. bhagvan. Doosre se motor bheek mangta hai wo kaise bhagvan? Hum bolte hai hum bhagvan ka das, wo theek hai . . . (they don't follow what is given in the sastra . Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇam . Bhagavān. They beg from others for living how they can be Bhagavān? But we say we are servant of God, which is right . . .) Then he is servant, always servant? *Yes. Nityānām , nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ . . . Servant sabi sochta hai hum kabhi malik ho jaye jo servant hai wo servant jaisa to hai koi malik ko sochne se aur doosre malik ke pas akarke usko pani lane do. (All the servants think, "When will I become the owner." The servant is like a servant, but when he considers himself an owner and orders another owner to get water for him.) Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Jeev ka ye swaroop hai. jo apne ko sochta hai mai bhagvan hoon. (The form of living entity is servant but he thinks "I am God".) That is his foolishness. And foolish person will accept. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Therefore He shall remain the Supreme always. We have to refer to the Vedic śāstras . Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate . This is description of Bhagavān, that He has nothing to do, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate . Uska magic deekha ki bhagvan thode ho jata hai, wo to bhagvan teen mahine ka hai. (If he shows magic he does not become God, that type of God is only for 3 months.) Either he is three months old or three years old or three hundred years old, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate , nobody can be equal or greater than Him. If someone is equal to Him, then how He is Bhagavān? How it can be that so many sages of the past, they proclaimed ahaṁ brahmāsmi . *Brahman. Brahman to hai hi, (You are Brahman,) because you are part and parcel of Parabrahman. That I have already told you, that gold, big gold and small particle, that is gold. Similarly, Bhagavān Parabrahman, and we are part and parcel of Him. Therefore I am Brahman. But I am not Parabrahman. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as Para*-brahman by Arjuna: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Para-brahman. So param , this word is used, Paramātmā, Parabrahman, Parameśvara. Why? That is the difference. One is supreme and one is subordinate. Subordinate Brahman. You are Brahman, there is no doubt of it. But not that Parabrahman. If you are Parabrahman, then why you are making sādhana to become Parabrahman? Why? If you are Parabrahman, then you are Parabrahman always. Why you have fallen in this condition that you have to perform sādhana to become Parabrahman? That is foolishness. You are not Parabrahman. You are Brahman. You are gold, a small particle. But you cannot say that "I am gold mine." That you cannot do. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Hare Kṛṣṇa. So he is checking if it is time to go out . . . are you going to come with us also? Very good. Bring little water. These my disciples, they are part and parcel of me. Whole mission is going on with their cooperation. But if he says that, "I am equal to my Guru Mahārāja," then that is offense. Suppose guru desires that my disciple should rise higher than me. That means he is in lower stage. That you have to accept first of all. Like as a father sees that his children grow. Yes, still father begets father, and a child cannot become father. Father begets father, but he feels that he may . . . will progress . . . No, no. Father may want to see that the son is equally qualified, but still the father is father, and child is child. That is perpetual. Similarly, a part and parcel of God may be very powerful, but that does not mean that he has become God. Other traditions, guru disciple, then the disciple becomes guru , then disciple. The gurus may change. They cannot change. If there are change of guru , the disciple acts. But does not . . . he'll never say that, "I have become equal or one with guru ." That is not so. I am thinking about this, Swāmījī, that your Guru Mahārāja is preaching through you, and you are preaching through them. Yes. So disciple is guru through his disciples. That's all right. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam (BG 4.2). But that does not become . . . he has become. He may be representative of guru , representative of God, but it does not mean that he has become God. But he becomes guru to his disciples. That's all right. Never equal to his guru . Not equal; representative. Not equal. I send one representative of this man, and he may be very expert, doing very good business, still he cannot be equal with me. He is acting as my representative, that's another thing. But not that he has become the original proprietor. But as your disciples, you are taken as guru . But they will never say that they have become equal with me, "I have advanced to be my guru ." Never say. Just like this boy, he is offering obeisances. He may be expert in preaching more than me, but he knows that, "I am subordinate." Otherwise, how he shall offer obeisances? He can think, "Oh, now I am so learned. I am so advanced. Why shall I accept him as superior?" No. That continues. Even after my death, after my disappearance, he will offer obeisances to my picture. But amongst his disciples he will be worshiped . . . That's all right, but he remains a disciple of his guru . He will never say that, "Now I have become guru , so I don't care for my guru ." He will never say. Just like I am doing, but I am worshiping my guru still. So I remain subordinate to my guru , always. Even though I have become guru , still I am subordinate to my guru . But qualitatively . . . Qualitatively equal, I have already said. Not quantitatively. Qualitatively we are one. Quantitatively. Why? Do you think a grain of gold and a big gold lump is same? Gold, I think I am also gold. No, gold that is accepted, quality. That if you say . . . this is explanation—you must have brain to understand—that a small particle of gold and a big gold, they are gold in quality, but the big gold is millions of dollars and a small particle is few dollars. Just see. This is accepted. This Māyāvāda theory has made people atheists, that "I am God, I am equal to God." Very bad theory. From where these things also come? From where it comes? *From the Vedas . Vedas says, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate, Upaniṣads. Na tat*-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (CC Madhya 13.65, purport; Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8). *Who gives this asura*-buddhi ? From where this dirty, filth grows? *Asura*-buddhi and sura-buddhi , due to our little independence. Just like we are talking. So we do not agree; *therefore we are talking. So one of us may be asura and one may be sura . Therefore we do not agree. Otherwise, there is no use of talking. So that is natural. That is the conditioned stage. Because we are conditioned by the material nature, some of us are asuras and some of them are suras. Dvau bhūta*-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca (BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva , devatā , and asura . Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ smṛto daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ (Padma Purāṇa). Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are devatā , and just opposite number is asura . *Who does not recognize the authority of God, he is asura . He himself becomes God foolishly. That is not God. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ (BS 5.52). Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā . This, about the sun, description in the Brahma-saṁhitā. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ , unlimited potency, energy, heating energy. Such a powerful planet. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ . Still it is carrying out the order of somebody. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi : "I offer my obeisances to Govinda." But if I say I am equal to Govinda, I can stop sun, "Don't bother me by heating. Stop," will it become . . .? Then how I become all-powerful? Let me stop the activities of the sun. Or at night there is no sun, can I ask the sun, "Get up. I want light immediately"? Is it possible? Then how I become the God? Nobody cares for my order. They say those who know their Bhāgavata , they call themselves Bhagavān. That anyone can say, that "I know my Bhāgavata ." Nobody knows. I am Bhagavān but nobody cares for me. What kind of Bhagavān? It is rascal Bhagavān. When Bhagavān has a toothache he goes to the dentist. Yes, when there's a toothache he goes to the doctor. These kind of nonsense has to be stopped. Otherwise people become atheists. "Anyone can become God, anyone can become Bhagavān." This Rajneesh, I tell you, he has . . . I don't say about Rajneesh because I have no acquaintance with him, but anyone says that he is Bhagavān, he can do anything. Somebody asked him, "Why you claim to be God, or Bhagavān?" He clarified that "It is not the creator or the equal Bhagavān. I know by . . . I have realized by . . ." But God says "I am the creator of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). This is Bhagavān. We can go, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Yes. We will go to the car. (break) (in car) . . . to the sun planet, beginning is the sunshine. Yes, beginning is the sunshine. *Similarly, to go to the Absolute Truth, you begin with impersonal Brahman. Just as sunshine is impersonal, but everyone can see the sunshine is coming from the sun surface. Everyone knows that. Therefore the sunshine is not so important as the sun globe. Similarly brahma-tattva-nirviśeṣa , nirākāra-brahma is there, but more important than is the localized aspect. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61). God is all-pervading. The sunshine is all-pervading, and as Paramātmā He is also all-pervading. But if you can enter into the sun globe, you will meet with the sun-god. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā , imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke this philosophy to the sun-god." So there is sun-god. Sun-god and the sun globe and the sunshine, they are one, but different stages of understanding. Similarly, Brahman understanding, Paramātmā understanding, then the Supreme Personality of Godhead understanding. Advaya-jñāna. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). But if you stop simply in the sunshine, that means you have no knowledge of the sun*-god or the sun globe. If you have simply knowledge of the sun globe, then you are not aware of what is the sun-god. But if you know sun-god, then you know what is sun globe and the sunshine. That is wanted. That is perfect knowledge. *Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). When, after many many births, when one is actually in knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, understanding that Kṛṣṇa is everything, that mahātmā is sudurlabha , very rare. Somebody knows only impersonal Brahman, the jñānīs . Somebody knows the Paramātmā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe (BG 18.61). And one who knows Kṛṣṇa, he is perfect. (break) . . . this stage of understanding Kṛṣṇa, your knowledge is imperfect. (break) . . . śāstras , but unfortunately we do not refer to the authority of the śāstras . We manufacture our own way. No, actually what has happened is that there has been too many interpretations. There cannot be interpretations. No, there are certain people . . . That is foolishness. That is what I said, huh. So there are so many interpretations that you get confused. Because of the same thing, some interpret, say, a different way. *One thing is that you have to become intelligent. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Now why I shall accept interpretation on these plain words? That is my foolishness. If somebody says, " dharma-kṣetra means this body and Pāṇḍava means the five senses," why this nonsense interpretation? If you are not intelligent, then you will accept such rascals interpreting unnecessarily. Interpretation is required when things are not very clear. But when the things are clear, why you should accept interpretation? That is my foolishness. There is no need of interpretation. (break) . . . is it still there? Why, if the rascal interprets, "Kurukṣetra means this body," why shall I accept it? Kurukṣetra is still there. There is no difficulty to understand. And if somebody interprets . . . (break) . . . interpretation, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that as soon as you interpret, the whole thing is lost. So why shall I be so foolish, I shall accept something which is lost? No. Rather, Kṛṣṇa had His own interpretation. That may be, but why shall I accept? . . . had His own interpretation rather. All the people who share . . . *You have, interpretation, you have to refer to the Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā says as soon as you accept interpretation, it is lost. Then the meaning is lost. Bās . So under the circumstances . . . that means I am also foolish. Any rascal gives any interpretation—I accept. That is my foolishness. So why should I become foolish? Radhakrishnan may be very big man, but if he does something wrong, he will be hanged. *No, he . . . ślokas are there. All the Bhagavad*-gītā ślokas are there. But I must have intelligence that why this rascal is interpreting in a different way. And Sanskrit is the language. So it has got the same . . . *No, no, it is not very difficult. Just like in the Ninth Chapter, Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). And Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Why? Kṛṣṇa says, "Just think of Me— man-manāḥ —just become My devotee, and just offer Me obeisances, worship Me." It is plain language. And if some rascal says: "No, no, it is not to Kṛṣṇa," why shall I accept it? It is not the personified Kṛṣṇa. You have read it? Yes. Yes, you see. I shall immediately detect that here is a rascal. Because Kṛṣṇa says personally, and he says it is not to the person. Just see. But Kṛṣṇa had been on this earth in flesh and bones. *That is history, Mahābhārata . And all the ācāryas , they have accepted—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka. Svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me (BG 10.13). Arjuna accepts Him, Para*-brahman. You are Para-brahman. Not that "Because I am Your friend and I am accepting You as Para-brahman," but all the ācāryas , they have accepted. (break) . . . mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam . "Because I am talking with you as a human being, only rascals, they think I am human being." If you think Kṛṣṇa as having flesh and bone, then you become a rascal, immediately. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam , paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11): "I am not made of this bone and flesh. I am cinmaya , I am fully spirit soul." So one who does not know it, he is a rascal. So as soon as you will say that He is made of bone and flesh, that means you are rascal. (laughter) Why shall I hear you? When Lord Kṛṣṇa came into being, I mean . . . That does not mean that . . . suppose I am here. I am driving with you. But there is difference between you and me. So Kṛṣṇa comes as human being, that does not mean He is human being. Why don't you understand this? That is okay. But from the normal, you know . . . That is your study. That is foolish study. Therefore He says avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11): "The rascals think that I am one of the human being." If he is one of the human being, how he can say, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). In the human society, there are big men, you are big man, I am small man, he is still more, he is still more, he is still bigger. There are so many varieties. But He says: "No more superior than Me." And that is God. No one is supreme than Him. Yes. That He says, of course. He says everything, but because we are foolish we do not hear Him. That is the difficulty. We don't understand Him. No, we understand. But we do not accept it. We don't accept it. What is the difficulty to understand? God is superior. Everyone knows it. But I will not accept, he will not accept. Unless one is superior, how He can be God? (break) . . . sevayā . Therefore you have to find out somebody who knows Him. Otherwise you will be in darkness. (break) *(indistinct Hindi) . . . over bridge. But where we are going, Ambleshwar, from there Kṛṣṇā*-nadī starts. *Oh. Kṛṣṇā*-nadī is for us. From Ambleshwar. Then there is old, old mandir, very old mandir, temple, there are five, they say, five nadīs are coming. Oh, Kaumuda, Kāverī . . . Kṛṣṇā, Kāverī, Veṇā . . . five rivers, they say, they flow from there. We will go there. Tomorrow morning we'll go there. (break) . . . just now. In the morning it was little cold. Now it is very pleasing. It is. But since you have been going all over the Europe and Am . . . you must be accustomed to cold. It is severe cold. Oh, yes. I was going to morning walk when there was snowfall. I was walking on snow. Actually when snow falls it is not very cold, but when there is breeze, then it is very unbearable. Ah, yes. (break) . . . the first month, I think, except April and May. All the rest months. All the year. May is quite hot, and April . . . Beginning. Not beginning. Middle of April to May and June. Then in June rain starts. (break) *. . . legislation that fifty percent of revenues was spent in military. Bhaya*-vitta . (break) Tad guru vijñāta . . . Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). *Guru*-vijñāna . . . (indistinct) *No. This is Vedic injunction. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Abhigacchet , this word is used. This means "must," vidhi*-liṅ . This is the form of vidhi-liṅ , in grammar. Vidhi-liṅ is applied when there is no question of duality. You must. If you want to know that transcendental science, you must approach guru . Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham . And who is guru ? Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam. Śrotriyam means one who is guru by hearing from his guru , śrotriyam . This is paramparā . Not that all of a sudden he becomes guru . No. That is not guru . Guru means śrotriyam. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). And after hearing perfectly from his guru , he is brahma-niṣṭham . Just like Arjuna, after hearing from Kṛṣṇa, his guru , he became devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Not became, he was devotee. Still he became perfect devotee. Brahma-niṣṭham . This is the guru's qualification. *And in another, the Bhāgavata it is said, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). One must surrender to guru who is actually inquisitive, yes, about the Absolute Truth. What kind of inquisitive? Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam : the best aim of life or transcendental aim of life. He requires guru . Then what is guru' s qualification? The next line is that tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam, śābde pare ca niṣṇātam (SB 11.3.21). Guru is completely in awareness of all the Vedic knowledge. That is guru . Not a loafer class. (laughter) Śrotriyam . One who has heard perfectly Vedas from his guru . And what is the symptom that he has heard from the authority of the . . .? Brahma*-niṣṭham. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . The symptom is that he has completely taken shelter of the Supreme Brahman, rejecting or finishing all material desires. No more material desires. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . He has taken shelter of Brahman, upaśama , rejecting—no more hankering after anything material. No more hankering. But he has to eat. He has to eat, he has to clothe. Yes, that is not hankering. That is not hankering. The minimum needs of the body. *(indistinct) . . . so long the body is there. That is wanted. Just like about the Gosvāmīs it is said, nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . One has to conquer over sleeping, eating, sex and fearing. A saintly person has no fearing, because he depends on Kṛṣṇa. But these things particularly conquered over. Simply little eating, that's all. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi . At least trying to conquer over sleeping, eating and sex. Sleeping, eating and . . . Sex life. (break) . . . sleeping at all, or some little sleep? Practically no sleeping. Practically no eating and no sex life. Sleeping means actual sleeping or awareness, I mean awakening of the mind or awakening . . . No, actual sleeping. Sleeping means waste of time. So long you sleep, it is a waste of time. Better reduce sleep. But you have to sleep sometimes. Yes, some, some. Some part of the day or part of the . . . That also you will find, those who are highly elevated, they can avoid. They can completely avoid sleeping? Hundred percent? No. They can, but they do not show like that. (laughter) Otherwise, artificially one would like to imitate it. But in the medical theory they are saying so much insomnia. No insomnia, he becomes mad. (laughter) That is another thing. That is disease. One of my parents' friends, she hadn't been to sleep for seven months because of a nervous condition when she was going crazy. I saw that. There must be sleeping pills. Yes, in Western countries, tranquilizer. I was in America, you know. So in New York I stayed in one hotel, and every evening, that bellboy, he was keeping two tablets for each of us in the room. Actually, I don't know what type of tablets they have done. We have slept thoroughly. In the morning he came to make the bedding. So he said, "Sir, you have not taken these tablets?" I said: "What are these tablets?" "Sleeping pills." I said, "No, I don't take it." "And you could sleep?" I said: "Yes." Then he said: "Can I have these?" "Yes, yes, you can have by all means." (laughter) So he took away all the pills for his own use. So I mean most of the people, they can't sleep without these sleeping pills. Their mind is so agitated and so disturbed. This material . . . *Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyām , in the śāstra it is said: "In the material world everyone is always full of anxiety." Full of anxiety. The more you're engrossed in material things, the more anxiety you are in. *Yes. That is explained. Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because he has accepted something which is asat—asat means which will not endure, such things—on account of this, he is always full of anxieties. Asat , this body is asat . Asad-grahāt . Because we have accepted this material body, we must be always full of anxieties. Asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). Although this body is temporary, still, so long the body is there, he will suffer. Kleśada . Kleśada means always giving trouble—this trouble, that trouble, this trouble, that trouble. This road straight leads to Bangalore, Madras. This road goes to south, entire south. You can go by this road only to Kanyakumari. Oh! Yes, Cape Comorin, right up to Calicut. And all the tīrthas are on the four sides. Very good road? Last year in the month of December I went to Rāmeśvaram. On this road? On this road. Of course, I went by air to Bangalore, and from there we went by car. But this road goes straight. (break) . . . by car, to Calcutta by air, then from there to that Bhubaneshwar by train, and then from there by car, like that. (break) It is very small place, Dvārakā. It is very small place, and in that leak was, an entire area was destroyed completely. Even communications could not be restored for three months. But Dvārakā itself was untouched completely. But on the way we found, because we went by car from here, we found roads, everything was destroyed completely. You could see demolished, the tops of houses gone away in the cyclone. Maharashtra Province is rich? I don't think so. It is like this, that Maharashtra is industrially quite stable. But that only Bombay and one, two cities. The rest of the Maharashtra is poor. There is not much cultivation. But industry, it belongs to the other persons, not to the Maharashtrians. Hmm? All these Bombay industries, they belong to the outsiders. *Outsiders. Now in Punjab, for instance, now they have created sufficient wheat to cater the entire country. That is four*-fifths of the total need of the country of wheat is supplied by Punjab. But it is always. Punjab and Haryana, now they are two, but both together. Punjab is the best province in India. You know we came and settled in Poona after partition of the country. Previously we were in Rawalpindi. (to the driver) Kya kar rahe ho bhai? (What are you doing brother?) (break) . . . on my way to Kashmir. Yes, because at Rawalpindi you could get taxi, then buses. After Rawalpindi you have to go by train. Then from there you could get car, taxi, and in those days there were yakas also. You know. Tongas. Tongas or buses. (break) *. . . young age when I was twenty*-five years. (break) . . . via Jammu. Jammu, Jammu and Kashmir. Yes. And I came back via Rawalpindi. Ācchā , you came back via Rawalpindi. (break) You have, I mean, thought of spiritual bending, or spiritual . . . *No, we are trained up, because we belong to Kṛṣṇa family. So Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship is our family tradition. Our forefathers, my father, my maternal uncles, we are Vaiṣṇava family, belonging to the Caitanya- sampradāya . But how you entered in business, I mean. Because we were trained up from the very beginning of our life by our father, mother. Grandfather also? *Yes, our whole family. We have our family Deity, Dāmodara. In my childhood I was worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities. And then, fortunately, I got my Guru Mahārāja, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. So this was a good fortune, from the very beginning we were trained up. So in the beginning of our life, I was worshiping Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and playing with Ratha-yātrā. The same thing is being done now, in a larger scale. (laughter) Nitya yukta upāsate . There is no change. *People must be very curious in California when this Ratha*-yātrā, Jagannātha. They must be very curious. *Yes. But they enjoy very much. They enjoy very much. Those who are even not my students, they also come to me, "Thank you, Prabhupāda. Thank you, Prabhupāda." They say like that. They enjoy very much, dance like anything, when the Ratha*-yātrā goes. They say: "It is life." They are dancing. "This is life. We do not know what is happening, but we are dancing." They say like that. Dancing, this ballroom dancing? *No, around the road, Hare Kṛṣṇa dancing. (laughter) There is no need of ballroom. They become mad, dancing. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana*-gāna-nartana-parau . That is ecstasy. So when the ecstasy is there, they understand this is life. (break) Mr. Biyani, Biyani. He is just Birla's tea company chairman looking after tea. Last time I was in Delhi about two months back, so I just talked about you that I had to meet you and we could go to Vṛndāvana. Because at that time I was told that you were there. So he knew you very well; he had been to your discourses, Mr. Biyani. He's Marwari. They are in Calcutta, that tea business, export tea business. We agreed on one this thing, that it is very easy, rather, to make Indians understand the spiritual teachings of Lord Kṛṣṇa, because in homes, in houses, forefathers, grandmothers, mothers, they are doing, I mean, always. But to, I mean, impart this knowledge to the . . . Foreigners. Foreigners, and that to who have more or less completely, I mean, very much away from the spiritual life, very much engrossed in material life, very much engrossed. And it was something very, very, very difficult, right? Without the blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself . . . (laughter) Therefore their fathers are charging me that "This man knows something, mesmerism." (laughter) Their fathers are charging with that this man knows some mesmerism. (laughter) Brainwash. Brainwash, ācchā. How you entered in their hearts? Mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Hare Kṛṣṇa mesmerism. That is also mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . *Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). This is the process of cleansing the heart. So if it is done properly, everyone becomes cleansed of all dirty things. Naturally he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. I was rather very much surprised when I first met, Prabhupāda, about four or five devotees on the streets of this Honolulu, Honolulu first. Because I went from this side, Japan, Hong Kong, Thailand, and then entered in America through Honolulu, Hawaii. So when I went I was just in the morning, I was trying to get the tourist bus for moving in the whole city to see. And then on the main road, you know that main road . . . have you been to Honolulu? No. He has gone. Ācchā . You have been to Honolulu? Yeah. Five devotees were having drums, this khol , they were dancing like, I mean, in their own mood, you know. So then I had a curiosity. I just stopped one of them and I said: "Well, mister, I would like to know about all this." He said, "Yes, you come to our temple in the morning and we'll tell you all about it." But I said that, "What you are doing?" "We are playing kīrtana ." I said, "Well, why you are out on the streets?" "Because these all demons. These are all demons, you know." Demons. ". . . demons, you know. So those who do not have any spiritual knowledge, so we want to penetrate in their ears, and through their ears in their hearts, the name of Kṛṣṇa. So that even if they don't like it, well, the Kṛṣṇa name should enter in their hearts." That is . . . this mantra . . . "So that is what we are doing. So even if they don't like it we are doing. So whosoever is passing by, he will have at least his ears will be accustomed to hear the name of Lord Kṛṣṇa." I said: "But in *Gītā* it is said that those who do not wish to know the true knowledge, well, it is forbidden for the devotees or for the followers to tell them anything about spiritual knowledge." "So that, sir, we are not giving, imparting knowledge to each individual by catching them. We are just playing ourselves. So whosoever likes it, he can stand by us. Otherwise we are not . . ." So they replied also correctly to this also. Yes, and Kṛṣṇa says . . . Ācchā , then I said: "What is this?" "This is śikhā ." I said: "Well what it is meant for?" So he said: "Well, this is the . . ." What he told me was this exactly, that the aerial of knowledge. He said that this is the aerial of knowledge. I said: "Is it your own interpretation?" "No, but I think that I feel that way. This is the aerial of knowledge." (break) . . . that, "You come have prasādam in the morning." So next day we had to leave actually. So we were in the morning busy going to airport. Then I met in this New York. Then when I came to Europe, then I was sitting in one restaurant in London, and then a big group of about 15, 18, 20 devotees, they were having a good chanting, and they were . . . Our men regularly go on the Oxford St. Yes, Oxford. On that street only there was Indian restaurant where this rasagullās and tea and all that is available. So we were sitting having our this thing, and then they passed. Our men, they can prepare rasagullā , samosā , kachorī . Now this Bombay center, when I visited, Girirāja he showed me, and the restaurant, that vegetarian restaurant which will be coming up, that is good. (break) . . . I mean is it regular new films are being made, or only one or two films have been made so far? We make more films. There's another one just coming up now which explains the philosophy in more detail. The films were to show general activities, that was The Hare Kṛṣṇa People. The new film was to show the farming scheme that Prabhupāda set up in New Vrindavan, and many other farms we have now. And there was one other film to show how the books are produced and then delivered to the public. So gradually more and more are coming out. You know one thing I have found that there is spotless cleanliness, you know, in the centers. Whereas in our temples here in India, even when we go to say Hardwar and Rishikesh and all these, the temples, the outer cleanliness, not proper emphasis is given by the management. I stress on this cleanliness very much. If they keep unclean, I chastise them like anything. (laughing) They have learned this art. I always say, "Cleanliness is next to godliness." *About two years back, two, three of your devotees came to our house here. Naturally we offered them, "Would you like to have coffee, tea?" They said: "No." Then we said: "Would you like to have Coca*-cola?" They said, "No." Then I said: "What would you like to have? Milk?" "Yes." Lassi , chach ? "Yes." Fruit. "Yes." It happened so that Girirāja came to us twice, and twice it was this ekādaśī . Now ekādaśī day they are not supposed to eat this wheat or flour or anything. So when last we came to Mahabaleshwar, so we brought some paraṭās with this gobi in it. Ekādaśī . We didn't know about ekādaśī . When we came to Mahabaleshwar, we opened. They said: "No, we can't eat because it is ekādaśī ." So we thought that, "No, you won't eat, so it looks odd that we should eat." But we were very hungry, you know. In the morning we didn't take anything. We said: "All right, we eat, now we will go to the bazaar and see if we could get something." Then we went to Mahabaleshwar, it was all closed, because it was raining season. And then there was one shop which had bananas, you know, good amount of bananas. So we took one dozen or two dozen bananas, and then . . . (laughs) Banana is very good. You can make banana and potato. Potato boil and mixed with banana, and make nice purī . And then . . . *How Girirāja, I just ask you, how you sort of took to all these good things, I would say, of life? I mean in natural form, or with some self*-discipline, or with some coercion, or with some what? It was Prabhupāda's mercy. I was looking for a guru . Actually, whenever I heard there was a svāmī or a yogī , I would always go, even hundreds of miles. But I was never satisfied. But Śrīla Prabhupāda perfectly satisfied all of my questions. And I liked the process—chanting, dancing, taking prasādam , offering ārati —and I liked the devotees. It was very pleasing. So I immediately decided this is my real life. No, but not taking any wheat, like on ekādaśī day, all such things, I mean. That's training. Once we surrender to the spiritual master, then he trains us in the process of spiritual life. *Sādhu*-mārgānugamanam. Ādau gurvāśrayaṁ sad-dharma-pṛcchāt sādhu-mārgānugamanam . These are the process. *Sādhu*-mārga . *Sādhu*-mārga . We study the śāstras every morning and evening in all of our centers, so we become educated. (break) Four places: Hardwar, Prayāga, Vṛndāvana . . . But after every eleven years or . . .? No. It comes in rotation, every four years. *Every four years. So there are sort of ardha*-kumbhīs and then kumbha . *Yes. In Allahabad they actually hold every year, Māgha*-mela . *Māgha*-mela . But this is not every year, this time people are . . . It is very, I mean to say, atmosphere becomes surcharged. Great spiritual advancement. Very nice. Abhi 15 tarik ko wahan par kuch hai kuch, aap ja rahe hain, kab jayenge? (On 15th there is some event happening there. Are you going? When are you going?) ' Jayenge 15 tarik tak. aap aaiye. (Yes I will go around 15th.) Iran is like that, but no green, simply sand. They are the mountains of Deccan. They say that these all mountains were under sea. *Yes, everything was . . . pralaya*-payodhi-jale dhṛtavān asi vedam . (break) *Swamiji yahan par bhi south me bade ache*-ache mandir hain. (Swamiji, here also in the South there are very good temples.) (break) . . . for quite some time at a particular spot. This spot was shown to us. And people have very great reverence for that spot. So now, at one time we accept Lord Rāma the supreme master of a particular yuga , and then He had to worship Lord Śiva. So who is, I mean, supreme? Lord Śiva or Lord Rāma? Lord Rāma is the Lord. Śiva is devotee. Sometimes you wash the feet of your son. That does not mean you are a servant Sometime . . .? You wash the feet of your son. But that does not mean you are a servant of the son. Kṛṣṇa . . . why Rāma? Kṛṣṇa, when Sudāmā Vipra came to His house, He washed his feet. Sab bhakton ke bhagat. (The supreme of all the devotees.) *Kṛṣṇa immediately got down from His siṁhāsana and took his lotus . . . touch his feet. And Nārada Muni was smiling. Nara*-līlā. Nārada Muni was smiling. Ye bhagvan kya kar rahe hain? (What is God doing?) Nārada Muni knew it that He is the Supreme Lord, but he did not check it. He let Lord Kṛṣṇa bow. This is the biggest paradox. *Mad*-bhakta-pūjābhyadhika (SB 11.19.21). Kṛṣṇa is pleased when His devotee is worshiped. Kṛṣṇa kabhi-kabhi radharani ka payr choota hai. (Kṛṣṇa sometimes touches the feet of Radharani.) Now I went to Dvārakā Purī, so there is Bheda Dvārakā in the sea. One is Dvārakā Purī, then about, I think, ten, twelve miles away there is Bheda Dvārakā. At Bheda Dvārakā, that is the residential palace of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and seven rāṇīs of Lord Kṛṣṇa. They show each building, their whole building. So what was that? Kṛṣṇa had 16,108 queens. 16,108 queens. 16,108. But there they show only, I think, 8 or 7. All are described, that He had 16,000 palaces. And Nārada Muni came to see Him, what He is doing actually. He saw different activities, and Kṛṣṇa expanded Himself to 16,108. Each rāṇī had ten sons, Each rāṇī had ten sons. *And they had sons also. In this way the Yadu*-vaṁśa was crores. There was one story that Lord Kṛṣṇa was going on rath (chariot), and then He had to be at the place of horse of the rath because of some śhrap (curse) of some muni. That is given there.Idhar bhuma do. (Turn around here.) (break) So we get frustrated. But where the first apple came? Where the very seed of first apple planted on this earth planet? *Yes. Bījo 'haṁ sarva*-bhūtānām (BG 7.10). Kṛṣṇa answered this question. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām : "I am the original seed of everything." Otherwise, it is very difficult, that wherefrom the very first seed came. And He says another place: *Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). Everything is answered in Bhagavad*-gītā . (break) There is river, there is fountain . . . River, fountain . . . (indistinct) . . . volumes. (break) *. . . written by D. L. Raya. Dhana dhanyo puspa bhara amader ei vasundhārā . . . (indistinct) . . . hari hari āche. Tāhar majhe āche deśe eka sakala deśe sera . "Out of all these countries, there is a first*-class country, and that is my country, India." Dhana dhanyo puspa bhara amader ei vasundhārā , Tāhar majhe āche deśe eka sakala deśe sera . So the India is sakala deśe sera , the best of all other countries. best of all countries. Aisa kyon hai, Indai ko hi shreya mile sara. (Why is it that India gets all the credit?) All saints . . . *No, actually, India is the best country. There is no doubt. Even these boys, they say India is the best. Puṇya*-bhūmi . Religion agar study karna hai to India. sab communist ko sikhate hain (If you want to study religion then go to India. They teach all the communists) that "If you want to study religion, then go to India." These boys of Western countries, they come to India not to learn the so-called science. They have enough in their country. They do not come here how to manufacture aeroplane. For technology we have to go there. There is no need. No need. It is simply bogus. The first thing you require . . . you have got this body. You have to eat something and you have to dress yourself. You can get from this land. Keep some cows, grow your agricultural product, and sow cotton, then all economic problem is solved. And save time and understand what is your relationship with God. That is India. This is Vedic civilization. This era happened in the past similar. India is based on this principle. In every era demons and good people must be. That is there. Always must be there. The ratio may be different. Yes. Bad and good, mātra may be different. But India is especially meant for understanding God. That is India's . . . just like this place, such a nice place, automatically you'll remember God. You will like this place, this Panchgani, where we are going now. A wonderful peaceful place, very peaceful. The atmosphere . . . (break) . . . live peacefully, save time, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is my mission. The requirement of every human being is . . . Very simple. Very simple. But all these, you know, these added, added, added . . . That is asuric. Yes. To increase artificially necessities of life. And become entangled. *These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life. The aim of life is to go back home, back to Godhead. That they do not know. They are trying to adjust things by material arrangement. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā . This hope will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . This material energy is the external energy of the Lord. So they are enamored by the external energy; *they have no information of the internal energy, svarūpa-śakti . Just like every one of us in the conditioned state, we are busy with this body, the external energy. And the internal energy, the soul, is there. We have no information. Although we practically daily see that as soon as the internal energy is off, it is nothing but as good as the stone. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ . They are giving importance to this external energy. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And they are being encouraged by the so-called leaders to give stress on this external energy, although they are tightly tied with the laws of nature. The laws of nature will finish this body. But still they are attached to this body. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ . I had been to that Gandhi's place. Gandhi's place, Wardha. Wardha. And I saw his cottage and everything. So I said this is the . . . after all, he wanted to live very simple life in a cottage. Why he declared war against the Britishers? What was the necessity? Boliye hamara question theek hai ki nahi to unko . . . me hi rehna hai. (Tell me if my question is correct or not, so they must stay in the . . .) Britishers would never tackled you or objected. The villagers were using. Why so much energy was engaged, to drive away the Britishers? No, he wanted the country to be free from the foreign rule. No, now what freedom we have got? (laughter) That is a different thing. *But that means . . . we do not get such information from Bhagavad*-gītā , that "Make your country free." Why he took Bhagavad-gītā and did this business, mislead people? He took Bhagavad-gītā and he was busy declaring war. Because politically, sometimes required. But the thing is that if your ideal is to live very simple life . . . his, I mean to say, followers, Jawaharlal Nehru, he did not take up this. He used to stay in bhangi colonies, Gandhi. Hmm? *So, and he was killed in the bhangi colony. No, he was killed in the Birla's place. And there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. Although he was thinking, "This is my life, Bhagavad*-gītā "—without Kṛṣṇa. What is this? *Bhagavad*-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? He never commented on Third Chapter. *No, no. Any chapter. The beginning is bhagavān uvāca . Now how he can describe Bhagavān? This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). *He used Bhagavad*-gītā for political purposes. *That is, political purpose, you may. But even politically, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7): "Fight. But always remember Me." That is politics. Kṛṣṇa never says that you forget and fight. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). This is Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa never says that, "You give up politics." Actually, the Battle of Kurukṣetra is politics. But still Kṛṣṇa is there. How you can discard Kṛṣṇa? Yes, Battle of Kurukṣetra was fought . . . Politics. Senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta. Senayor ubhayor madhye (BG 1.21): "Between the two soldiers, keep my chariot, my dear Acyuta." He is addressing Acyuta. Acyuta, Kṛṣṇa, agreed to become his chariot driver. Therefore he is purposefully using this word acyuta . "Because I know You are the Supreme Lord, and I am ordering You, but because You promised that You will carry my order, Acyuta, You never fail in Your work." So God's another name is Acyuta. God never falls down. This Māyāvādī theory that, "I am God, now I am fallen down," that is wrong theory. How God can fall down? If God falls down He is not God. Dog fall down, not the God. How can He be supreme if He can fall down? *Yes. Na māṁ karmāṇi limpanti na me karma*-phale spṛhā (BG 4.14): "I have nothing to do, and neither if anyway I act, the resultant action does not affect Me." But we are all karma-phala vatya . So how God and myself can be equal? Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa . There is daiva , there is superior arrangement. According to my karma I get a different type of body. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye (SB 3.31.1). But when I surrender my karmas to Almighty . . . *Then ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣ . . . (BG 18.66), then Kṛṣṇa takes care of you. Then those karmas don't affect . . .? *No. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (BS 5.54). Those who are bhaktas , their karmas are finished. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi . Devotee is not under karma-phala . Hmm? *Devotee is not under karma*-phala . He is Brahman, immediately. Liberated soul. Without being liberated, nobody can be engaged in devotional service. (break) Then if one understands ahaṁ brahmāsmi . . . No, simply does not understand ahaṁ brahmāsmi , but he engages himself in devotional service. That is not the end. Simply by understanding that "I am this," that is not sufficient. "I am this, and this is my duty." "I am this, and this is my duty." Then that is what is . . . Yes. That is liberation. *That is perfection of brahma*-jñāna . But in the final analysis, at . . . Final analysis is devotional service. The paraṁ pada . They even advocate, means Lord Kṛṣṇa advocates, that all icchā , every type of icchā , icchā of even mukti . . . *That is negation. Just like you become freed from fever. So the symptoms of fever finished. But your healthy life begins. And after submission of the fever, still you lie down, that is not cured. Cure will be recognized when you work in your healthy state. That is bhakti . After becoming brahma*-bhūya , the activities should be devotional service. Then it is healthy life, liberated life. Without any ākāṅkṣā . Yes. Ākāṅkṣā is also there. That ākāṅkṣā is different. That ākāṅkṣā , how to please Kṛṣṇa, that ākāṅkṣā . In the material stage, the ākāṅkṣā is how to please my senses. In the liberated stage, how to please Kṛṣṇa. By pleasing Lord, one does not please one's own ego also to some extent? It is just like if you put water on the root of the tree, so all the parts of the tree may become satisfied, automatically. Or if you put food in the stomach, all the parts of your body becomes satisfied—that is automatic. You don't require to make a separate endeavor. That is not required. Is there any difference between the ego of a person who is collecting money, or material things, all his life, or a person who is giving all the material things for the service of the humanity at large? Is there any difference between the two? *To give your fruits of . . . result of your fruitive activities, either you give to yourself or to your brothers and sisters, it is the same thing. Expanded. Just like a child eats, but when he is little grown up, he gives to his brother also. But the principle is the same. But when you give everything to God, that is liberated stage. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat kuruṣva tad mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27). Meaning? Meaning, "Whatever you do, you give me Me; whatever you eat, you give to Me." Yad aśnāsi dadāsi yat : "You want to give in charity, you give to Me." (break) We have to cross this hill? Yes, we have to cross the hill. And then we again go on plain, then to cross another hill. But they are small, only three, four miles. We have already crossed one near Poona. That was also a small hill. This is called Khandala ghat. That was called (marathi) Kaprij. Some Kaprij Rishi, I think. Ah, there's the name, Kaprij. (break) Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana. And Bombay. Now in March it will be completed, this Kṛṣṇa center? It will be almost completed, but we will open. Everything will begin, our activities. Tumhen dekha gaya hai? (You have seen?) Ah. They say it will be a unique temple in Bombay. (break) The whole planning. My son is getting married on 24th of January. The younger son who went to factory this morning. He is getting married. And we are going, taking bride from here to Juhu. There is Hotel Horizon there, near Kṛṣṇa Land. So the bride will be staying there in Horizon, and then from there procession will be going to Sun and Sand, Sun and Sand, so on 24th. Whether you will be in Bombay or not, 24th January? May not be. Because Kumbha Mela is there. (break) . . . that auditorium. Yes, auditorium. This road goes to Bangalore straight, and we go to Mahabaleshwar. This is side. Bangalore how many miles? Total, from Poona, 520 miles. And you go from here on this road only to Goa also. Goa. Goa, yes. To go to Madras, you go also on this road. (break) . . . dolak. Some people will give . . . I mean sounds are different, you know, instruments are music. *This is called musical science, Jala*-taraṅga . Jala . Taraṅga means vibration, different vibration. Still there are, among the musicians, there are artists, they'll put vials and make the different tune by filling it with water: dn-dn-dn-dn , dn-dn . (break) This place is full of tourists from Bombay, from all of Gujarat. (break) Panchgani is one place, and twelve miles' difference, Mahabaleshwar. Also it is twin city like Secunderabad, Hyderabad. (break) In the morning when you go for walk you will find local ladies getting load of food from collected from the forests and taking. Very old, old type of life. (break) . . . this place. I visited Switzerland, and I visited almost every hill station of the country, and almost practically entire world. But I find this place of a different solace. (break) . . . and second, it is very neat and clean. Maharashtrians are very neat and clean. Upper class, they are very. (break) . . . karmī. Good man. Good man from worldly point of view, but from spiritual point of view, in the lowest stage. Karmī is the lowest stage. Lowest stage. Yes. Then jñānī , then yogī , then bhakta . More a politician. Yes. Karmī means this how to enjoy this world. Whole life they have struggled how to enjoy this: "How to enjoy myself. How to allow my men to enjoy." This is karmī platform. Everyone is doing that. Everyone is working hard for himself, for his family, and expand the family, for society, and expand the society, for the nation. Here is karmī plan. Gandhi, Birla, they are all . . . there is no question of spiritual life. Now this is the Kṛṣṇā River. You just see how small it is, and how big it becomes later on. In the rainy season this road is closed because this all water comes up, you know. Now it is just a small rivulet. This is Kṛṣṇā River. And it comes just opposite our place, from where it starts, from the mountain. Here is the place called Haya. This was also one of the biggest Sanskrit University in the older time, like that of Taksashila. And Sarnath, near Sarnath, what is that place? Not Sarnath—there in Bihar, that place, that was also very big university, no? Oh, Taxsila. No Taxsila was in Punjab, that side. In Bengal, Bihar, that . . . Darbhanga. I visited that. So this was the seat of very old temples, oldest temples in this place, this Haya. And they say this is one of the oldest of the oldest towns or cities of the country. Small place, Taseer with a population of about 10–15,000 people. All the temples are in the Kṛṣṇā River, in the Kṛṣṇā River. (break) Whatever I am today, that is all due to my past karmas, good or bad, I mean. Yes. And whatever I am doing today, that I will have to reap the harvest in the future. You are creating the next position. So that means that I am bound by my past karmas. My destiny, my fate, is tied with the past karmas . So I have no other goal but to have the phala of past karmas . Or can I change my fate? Yes. You are enjoying the past karmas , and you are creating new karmas . But can I . . . then this means a circle that I'll always be. *Karma*-cakra . *Karma*-cakra . So how can one be out of this cakra? That cakra , you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And put all the karmas . . . Yes, He says: "You surrender. I square up all your karma ." Then only square up. Otherwise, no. Otherwise continue in this vicious circle. *Dharmasyāsya parantapa mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu*-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). Karma-cakra , this mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani , one after another, one body after another, one body after another, this will continue. If you don't come to Kṛṣṇa, then nivartante , mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani , you have to return again to that karma-cakra . The only way out is to surrender your . . .? To accept Kṛṣṇa that, "You are my Lord. I forgot it. I surrender. Kindly accept me." How to surrender? Surrender, there are six items. Six items. Yes. That, "If I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection. I am one of His servants. And whatever He does, accept that." Good or bad. There is no bad. Everything is good. And first accept what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa, to reject what is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa. And what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa? How one knows? *Kṛṣṇa says. Do that. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Always think of Kṛṣṇa, become His devotee, offer obeisances. It doesn't require any extra endeavor, these things. Whatever you have got, you can do it. You can think of Kṛṣṇa without any impediment. Who can check it if you think of Kṛṣṇa? This is favorable. And what is unfavorable, that should be rejected. What is favorable, that should be accepted. And to believe firmly that "Now I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." (break) But dog has got a quality that he surrenders to his master. The master is a Vaiṣṇava, then dog gets the benefit. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya, mat para, mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mat para, mat para (BG 9.32). When the process is there, everyone can surrender, that "I shall act only what is favorable to get Kṛṣṇa's mercy." Yes. "And I shall not act any way which is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa." These first two determinations. And then, "Because I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." You believe in it. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). Believe in it. "Now I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. My all resultant actions of sinful life is finished. I will not come again." In this way. If one surrenders, how to know that Kṛṣṇa has accepted? That you will understand. Just like if you eat, you will understand that you are eating. Nobody has to convince you. You will be convinced. The test of the pudding is by eating. Not by simply telling. When you eat, you haven't got to ask somebody else, "Do you think I am happy?" You'll feel yourself. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). If you are actually devotee, then you will be detestful to all material things. (break) . . . mouse of the mountain. (laughter) Yes, he was declared mouse of the mountain. (break) Yes. If you want material power, you must be worshiper of Durgā. And if you want spiritual . . .? Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. This Bālajī is Viṣṇu? Viṣṇu. How then Viṣṇu, the incarnations, Kṛṣṇa, then Viṣṇu's incarnation . . . Viṣṇu is everything. If you want material power, you can get it from Viṣṇu. Material power from Viṣṇu? Yes, Viṣṇu can give everything. Paramaṁ puruṣa is Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu can give the power of bhakti also. Everything. Yes. Bhakti is . . . generally He gives bhakti . If you want something other than bhakti , you can get it. This is the center of M.R.A., Moral Rearmament. I phoned them for yesterday, so that Rajmohan Gandhi is away, not here. But the other people are here. We will visit this some time during the day. These days one conference is going on. There are 130 countries. Some conference. There? What is the subject? I don't know, remember. Oh, you may not know it, and this will do never any benefit. Now this is Panchgani, starts from here. Ah. . . . starts from here. (end) Conversation A -- December 22, 1976, Poona Because you cannot do like this. Kṛṣṇa says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya ( BG 7.7): "Nobody is superior than Me." That is Kṛṣṇa. Are you able to become superior of everyone? That is so, but how is that creator? His own creation went against and Kṛṣṇa became after His creation to worship and become devotees of superior . . . Isiliye, (That is why,) For this reason Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). One who knows what are the activities of Kṛṣṇa, he is liberated. So, So to understand Kṛṣṇa tattvataḥ , is not possible for ordinary person. Why this trying to understand Kṛṣṇa? Why not try to understand one's self? Kṛṣṇa passed five thousand years ago. Now ashes are there in our hands. Why not . . . That means you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is . . . why Kṛṣṇa? You are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. You are nitya , nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So you are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, you are nitya. Why do you say Kṛṣṇa existed five thousand years ago? He is existing always. Always existing there. Then the past is . . . (indistinct) . . . within you, within oneself. No, no. You are also nitya , but you are part and parcel of that nitya . Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God is nitya , you are also nitya ; God is also living, you are also living. What is the difference between the two? That one person, He is maintaining all of us. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . So this is knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. God is one. I am also individual. But we are many because we are all living entities. But God is one. We are controlled by God or God's nature. We are not one. Aren't we the images of God? Apart from images . . . that is another thing. That we shall describe later on. First of all you cannot claim that you are God, because you are under the control of material nature. You said part and parcel of God. Part and parcel, just like the finger is part and parcel of my body, but it is not the whole body. It is the body. It is body, you can say that, but part of it. Part of my body. All enjoined together, it makes the whole body. If it is separated . . . That's all right. But still you say it is aṅguli (finger). It is not the body. Aṅguli . (laughs) It is one part, to say many. *No. You should be . . . should be senses. Just like this aṅguli , I am asking, "Do like this?" It is my servant. After all, it is part of the body, it is my servant. If it cannot serve my body, then it is diseased. Similarly we are part and parcel of God. If we cannot serve God, that is our diseased condition. The same example: This finger is part and parcel of my body. But I ask finger, "Please come here, to my nostrils." If it cannot do, then it is diseased. It is not in normal condition. So anyone who does not serve the whole, part and whole, he is diseased. He is not in normal condition. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇera dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Therefore because we have forgotten this relationship with God, declared ourself as God, that is diseased condition. Therefore God comes and He orders, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66): "Surrender unto Me. Don't talk nonsense." That is God. So when we agree, that is our perfection. Not to artificially become God, but to agree to serve God. That is liberation. So what if the drop submerges in the ocean, then the identity of drop vanishes. No. Drop, when drop submerges with the ocean . . . *I will give you practical example. Just like you take red water, colored water. So put into the sea, does it mean that sea becomes red? That little spot may be for the time being. Besides that, merging, this is the philosophy of the Māyāvādīs. Actually that is superficial. Just like a bird, green bird, enters into the green tree. You see that bird is vanished. Because the tree is green and the bird is green, you do not know the separate identification. But the bird is there, separate identification. It is not the bird has become zero. A aeroplane goes to the sky, after some time you don't find the aeroplane. That doesn't mean the aeroplane has no more identity, separate. It is separate. It is your defective eyes that you cannot see that it has got separate existence. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that, "I, you and all these kings who are assembled here, we existed in the past, we are now existing, and we shall exist in the future." That means individual existence will continue. He explains past, present and future. So where is imagination? No imagination. But paraṁ pada , that is nirvāṇa , or whatever . . . Yes, paraṁ pada is just like you fly in the sky, go very high. So from here we cannot see that you are separately existing. But you are separately existing. It is my deficient eyes that I see that you are not. Identification will remain always? *Always. Therefore it is said in the śāstra , āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ anādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ , ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninaḥ . . . (SB 10.2.32). It is said, "My Lord, the lotus-eyed, vimukta-mānina , if somebody artificially is thinking that he has become liberated or merged into the existence, āruhya kṛcchreṇa , for which he has undergone very severe tapasya ," āruhya kṛcchreṇa . . . kṛcchreṇa means with great difficulty. Paraṁ padam , brahma-jyotir , patanti adhaḥ , "again he falls down," anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ . . . just like these rascals that are going in the sky to find out a place in the Mars and in the moon. And why they are coming back? If actually one has gone, then why he's coming back? To tell to the others that they saw something. *That's it. Similarly, you will find the so*-called sannyāsīs—not bhaktas —they undergo severe austerities, penances, but after some time they come to the worldly atmosphere. Because they could not get any place, therefore they come down. Just like the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs they say that this duniyā (world), jagat mithyā . If jagat is mithyā , you have left it, then why you come again to give some philanthropic service? If it is mithyā , then why you come again after so much? Is it not nonsense? If jagat is mithyā why you are coming again to this mithyā ? *That means you could not get place in the satya . Therefore you come down again. That is stated in the śāstra. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam (SB 10.2.32). Although with severe austerities and penances might go to the paraṁ pada , patanty adhaḥ , anādṛta*-yuṣmad , because he could not get shelter at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, he falls down. He must fall down to the material activities. Patanty adhaḥ . That is adho patha . As soon as a person, after undergoing severe austerities, becomes very highly elevated in the sannyāsa stage, but if he cannot get shelter at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then surely he shall fall down for these material activities, material enjoyment. That is the sign that he's fallen down. Lord Kṛṣṇa we have to see in a personal way, have to see the entirety as the . . . Lord Kṛṣṇa is everything. Nirākāra . *Why nirākāra ? He says " aham ." Every sentence in the Bhagavad*-gītā , He says " aham ." So how He is nirākāra ? Just like you, you are a person. When you say "I, I can do this," that is a person. Because I have no other alternative but to communicate. I can communicate only "I" and "you." There is no other way. No other way, therefore you are deficient. You cannot claim that you are God. Because you have no other way. You are forced by something. So somebody is controller upon you. Therefore you are different from the God. As you say: "I have no other way," that means you are dependent something else. But God can communicate differently? *Therefore God and you are different. That is dvaita*-vāda . You are different . . . Why at all this started even? Why at all, say millions, trillions years back, how it started that God created this world? Then all are one and different. Who created? God. So God is there. So God . . . you are created or you are subordinate to God? You are also there. So nitya , you are also existing eternally, and God is also eternally existing. But the difference between you and God is that God is maintaining everything and you are being maintained. That is the difference. You are one of the items which is maintained by God. As long as I continue my identity that, "I am so and so. I am this body," or "I am a person, or ātmā , seated in this body, or dwelling in this body," when I dislodge my body from ātmā , then what is the position? *You are different from the body. You are different from the body. You are soul. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This body is temporary, you are eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You are nityaḥ śāśvata . You are never killed, even after the destruction of the body. That should . . . that is real understanding that, "I am not this body. After annihilation of this body, I shall continue." Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). You should know that you are eternal part and parcel of God. God is eternal. Just like gold and a small particle of gold, both of them are gold. A small particle of gold, it is also gold, but not equal to the gold mine. That is real understanding. And because you are little gold . . . But potentiality? Potential different, because a lump of gold and a small particle of gold, the value is not the same. Gold it is quality, but not the value the same. That you cannot say. *Quality*-wise it is gold, but . . . *But quantity it is different. God is all*-pervading. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is all-pervading. He is in everyone's heart. Can you live in everyone's heart? Can you know what I am thinking? Then how you can become God? Well there are . . . There are fools, rascals. There are others. (laughter) But there are certain people who say that . . . *No, who says, they are rascals. They are rascals. We take them as rascals, that's all. How you can say that you are all*-pervading? Can you say that? Even if you are very highly elevated, can you say what I am thinking? Then how do you claim God? God is all-pervading. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). You have read Bhagavad-gītā . There are two kṣetra-jñas . One kṣetra-jña , just like I am, you are. They are kṣetra-jña . I know about my pains and pleasures of my body. You know. But I do not know what is pains and pleasure of your body; *you do not know what is pains and pleasure of my body. Therefore there is difference. But God knows. That is the difference between you and God. How you claim "God"? You do not know what is the pains and pleasures of my body. You know the pains and pleasures of your body. I know the pains and pleasures of my body. But either you or me, we do not know the pains and pleasures of all bodies. And Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata . He knows everyone's pains and pleasure. That is the difference between you and Him. But this is all right. As long as I maintain my identity . . . You have to. If you foolishly think that you have become one, that is your foolishness. Yes. That is foolish thinking. What if I submerge myself with the entire . . . Merge means you do not disagree. That is merge. Do not disagree. Just like when Arjuna was disagreeing, that is his condition, that is his . . . Identity. . . . conditioned identity. And when he agreed, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73)," that is identity of oneness. Surrender. Surrender. That is oneness. Not that individually he has become different. Individually he is, but he does not disagree with Kṛṣṇa. That is oneness. Just like we are sitting, we are of different interests. But so far my disciples are, they will not disagree with me. That is oneness. But he is individual. He was individual, he is individual, and he will continue his individuality. But as soon as he accepts me as the leader, then he is agreement. That is oneness. Agreement with God is surrender. Yes. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). To serve Kṛṣṇa favorably, that is oneness. That is oneness. *This is bhakti*-yoga . Any yoga . You are individual; God is individual. That is already explained, I told you. God says, Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, "Me, yourself and all these people who have gathered, they are all individuals. They were individuals in the past, they are individuals now, and we shall continue to remain individuals in the future." Even if we surrender. Surrender means agreement, that's all. Agreement. Individuality will all along exist. Otherwise why is He asking, "You surrender," unless there is individuality? Why this request is there? Because you are individual, you can deny it. That individuality continues. But if you have love for God, then you agree, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73)." So that is wanted. Not that he lost his individuality. Individuality is there. Individuality remains. It seems so, that the individuality remains. *And this is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says. What Kṛṣṇa says, you have to accept. Otherwise, what is the use of reading Bhagavad*-gītā ? You cannot accept Bhagavad-gītā through your whims. That is nonsense. You must accept as it is. That is wanted. This Satya Sai Baba, he is also disciple of Kṛṣṇa. How he produces . . .? Then if he is disciple of Kṛṣṇa, he would not have foolishly said that he is Bhagavān. That means he is bogus. It is bogus . . . you cannot say . . . if you are disciple . . . just like they are my disciples. They will never say that they are equal to me. They will never say. No, no, but what power he has got to produce just now . . .? That anyone can do, magic, jugglery. It has no meaning. He got, you know, this money. Oh, he can get anything, but that is . . . magic. That is . . . magician also knows. Professor Sarkar, a big magician, he kills . . . cuts people's body, then he joins them. So many things. Magic jugglery is . . . But there are some siddhis also. These siddhi , siddhis , some people. That is siddhi , magic also siddhi . You are successful businessman, that is also siddhi . That is also siddhi. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Even one is siddha , he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. That is said, yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Even one is siddha , still he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. He cannot understand . . .? Kṛṣṇa. But if he goes to āśrama , that where, and everybody sits there, the big Kṛṣṇa statue is there. In his room, personal room, Kṛṣṇa statue, and he has . . . If he is at all devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he will never say that he is Bhagavān. That is foolishness. That very assertion is foolishness. But Bhagavān, they don't call them Bhagavān. That they write in the books. They don't call, but write in the books. There was one article in the Blitz where it quoted him saying, "God is man, and man is God." He said he is the incarnation for this age. And where is the evidence? Anyone can say: "I am incarnation." (laughter) Any rascal can say. Anyone can say. (laughing) *What is the proof? Just like this Ramakrishna, he was an illiterate priest, and at the time of his death he said to Vivekananda that, "I am Kṛṣṇa, I am Lord Rāma," and he accepted. He accepted. Ye sab chalta hai. hum bol diya hum bhi bhagvan hain aur hum maan liye, usko kya maloom. ek aadmi bola hum bahut amir aur phata kapda pehna hai hum usko maan le . . . (All this is going on. I say I am God and people will believe, what does he know. One man says I am very rich and wears torn clothes, can we believe him . . .) Let him create one motorcar. Why he's asking, "Please, sir, give me car"? That's all. He is such a great man—bogus. People are foolish persons, they are deviated by these bogus rascals. That is going on . . . sastra me jo hai wo nahi mante hain. Ṣaḍ*-aiśvarya-pūrṇam. bhagvan. Doosre se motor bheek mangta hai wo kaise bhagvan? Hum bolte hai hum bhagvan ka das, wo theek hai . . . (they don't follow what is given in the sastra . Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇam . Bhagavān. They beg from others for living how they can be Bhagavān? But we say we are servant of God, which is right . . .) Then he is servant, always servant? *Yes. Nityānām , nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ . . . Servant sabi sochta hai hum kabhi malik ho jaye jo servant hai wo servant jaisa to hai koi malik ko sochne se aur doosre malik ke pas akarke usko pani lane do. (All the servants think, "When will I become the owner." The servant is like a servant, but when he considers himself an owner and orders another owner to get water for him.) Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Jeev ka ye swaroop hai. jo apne ko sochta hai mai bhagvan hoon. (The form of living entity is servant but he thinks "I am God".) That is his foolishness. And foolish person will accept. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Therefore He shall remain the Supreme always. We have to refer to the Vedic śāstras . Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate . This is description of Bhagavān, that He has nothing to do, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate . Uska magic deekha ki bhagvan thode ho jata hai, wo to bhagvan teen mahine ka hai. (If he shows magic he does not become God, that type of God is only for 3 months.) Either he is three months old or three years old or three hundred years old, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate , nobody can be equal or greater than Him. If someone is equal to Him, then how He is Bhagavān? How it can be that so many sages of the past, they proclaimed ahaṁ brahmāsmi . *Brahman. Brahman to hai hi, (You are Brahman,) because you are part and parcel of Parabrahman. That I have already told you, that gold, big gold and small particle, that is gold. Similarly, Bhagavān Parabrahman, and we are part and parcel of Him. Therefore I am Brahman. But I am not Parabrahman. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as Para*-brahman by Arjuna: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Para-brahman. So param , this word is used, Paramātmā, Parabrahman, Parameśvara. Why? That is the difference. One is supreme and one is subordinate. Subordinate Brahman. You are Brahman, there is no doubt of it. But not that Parabrahman. If you are Parabrahman, then why you are making sādhana to become Parabrahman? Why? If you are Parabrahman, then you are Parabrahman always. Why you have fallen in this condition that you have to perform sādhana to become Parabrahman? That is foolishness. You are not Parabrahman. You are Brahman. You are gold, a small particle. But you cannot say that "I am gold mine." That you cannot do. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Hare Kṛṣṇa. So he is checking if it is time to go out . . . are you going to come with us also? Very good. Bring little water. These my disciples, they are part and parcel of me. Whole mission is going on with their cooperation. But if he says that, "I am equal to my Guru Mahārāja," then that is offense. Suppose guru desires that my disciple should rise higher than me. That means he is in lower stage. That you have to accept first of all. Like as a father sees that his children grow. Yes, still father begets father, and a child cannot become father. Father begets father, but he feels that he may . . . will progress . . . No, no. Father may want to see that the son is equally qualified, but still the father is father, and child is child. That is perpetual. Similarly, a part and parcel of God may be very powerful, but that does not mean that he has become God. Other traditions, guru disciple, then the disciple becomes guru , then disciple. The gurus may change. They cannot change. If there are change of guru , the disciple acts. But does not . . . he'll never say that, "I have become equal or one with guru ." That is not so. I am thinking about this, Swāmījī, that your Guru Mahārāja is preaching through you, and you are preaching through them. Yes. So disciple is guru through his disciples. That's all right. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam (BG 4.2). But that does not become . . . he has become. He may be representative of guru , representative of God, but it does not mean that he has become God. But he becomes guru to his disciples. That's all right. Never equal to his guru . Not equal; representative. Not equal. I send one representative of this man, and he may be very expert, doing very good business, still he cannot be equal with me. He is acting as my representative, that's another thing. But not that he has become the original proprietor. But as your disciples, you are taken as guru . But they will never say that they have become equal with me, "I have advanced to be my guru ." Never say. Just like this boy, he is offering obeisances. He may be expert in preaching more than me, but he knows that, "I am subordinate." Otherwise, how he shall offer obeisances? He can think, "Oh, now I am so learned. I am so advanced. Why shall I accept him as superior?" No. That continues. Even after my death, after my disappearance, he will offer obeisances to my picture. But amongst his disciples he will be worshiped . . . That's all right, but he remains a disciple of his guru . He will never say that, "Now I have become guru , so I don't care for my guru ." He will never say. Just like I am doing, but I am worshiping my guru still. So I remain subordinate to my guru , always. Even though I have become guru , still I am subordinate to my guru . But qualitatively . . . Qualitatively equal, I have already said. Not quantitatively. Qualitatively we are one. Quantitatively. Why? Do you think a grain of gold and a big gold lump is same? Gold, I think I am also gold. No, gold that is accepted, quality. That if you say . . . this is explanation—you must have brain to understand—that a small particle of gold and a big gold, they are gold in quality, but the big gold is millions of dollars and a small particle is few dollars. Just see. This is accepted. This Māyāvāda theory has made people atheists, that "I am God, I am equal to God." Very bad theory. From where these things also come? From where it comes? *From the Vedas . Vedas says, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate, Upaniṣads. Na tat*-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (CC Madhya 13.65, purport; Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8). *Who gives this asura*-buddhi ? From where this dirty, filth grows? *Asura*-buddhi and sura-buddhi , due to our little independence. Just like we are talking. So we do not agree; *therefore we are talking. So one of us may be asura and one may be sura . Therefore we do not agree. Otherwise, there is no use of talking. So that is natural. That is the conditioned stage. Because we are conditioned by the material nature, some of us are asuras and some of them are suras. Dvau bhūta*-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca (BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva , devatā , and asura . Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ smṛto daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ (Padma Purāṇa). Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are devatā , and just opposite number is asura . *Who does not recognize the authority of God, he is asura . He himself becomes God foolishly. That is not God. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ (BS 5.52). Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā . This, about the sun, description in the Brahma-saṁhitā. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ , unlimited potency, energy, heating energy. Such a powerful planet. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ . Still it is carrying out the order of somebody. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi : "I offer my obeisances to Govinda." But if I say I am equal to Govinda, I can stop sun, "Don't bother me by heating. Stop," will it become . . .? Then how I become all-powerful? Let me stop the activities of the sun. Or at night there is no sun, can I ask the sun, "Get up. I want light immediately"? Is it possible? Then how I become the God? Nobody cares for my order. They say those who know their Bhāgavata , they call themselves Bhagavān. That anyone can say, that "I know my Bhāgavata ." Nobody knows. I am Bhagavān but nobody cares for me. What kind of Bhagavān? It is rascal Bhagavān. When Bhagavān has a toothache he goes to the dentist. Yes, when there's a toothache he goes to the doctor. These kind of nonsense has to be stopped. Otherwise people become atheists. "Anyone can become God, anyone can become Bhagavān." This Rajneesh, I tell you, he has . . . I don't say about Rajneesh because I have no acquaintance with him, but anyone says that he is Bhagavān, he can do anything. Somebody asked him, "Why you claim to be God, or Bhagavān?" He clarified that "It is not the creator or the equal Bhagavān. I know by . . . I have realized by . . ." But God says "I am the creator of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). This is Bhagavān. We can go, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Yes. We will go to the car. (break) (in car) . . . to the sun planet, beginning is the sunshine. Yes, beginning is the sunshine. *Similarly, to go to the Absolute Truth, you begin with impersonal Brahman. Just as sunshine is impersonal, but everyone can see the sunshine is coming from the sun surface. Everyone knows that. Therefore the sunshine is not so important as the sun globe. Similarly brahma-tattva-nirviśeṣa , nirākāra-brahma is there, but more important than is the localized aspect. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61). God is all-pervading. The sunshine is all-pervading, and as Paramātmā He is also all-pervading. But if you can enter into the sun globe, you will meet with the sun-god. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā , imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke this philosophy to the sun-god." So there is sun-god. Sun-god and the sun globe and the sunshine, they are one, but different stages of understanding. Similarly, Brahman understanding, Paramātmā understanding, then the Supreme Personality of Godhead understanding. Advaya-jñāna. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). But if you stop simply in the sunshine, that means you have no knowledge of the sun*-god or the sun globe. If you have simply knowledge of the sun globe, then you are not aware of what is the sun-god. But if you know sun-god, then you know what is sun globe and the sunshine. That is wanted. That is perfect knowledge. *Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). When, after many many births, when one is actually in knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, understanding that Kṛṣṇa is everything, that mahātmā is sudurlabha , very rare. Somebody knows only impersonal Brahman, the jñānīs . Somebody knows the Paramātmā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe (BG 18.61). And one who knows Kṛṣṇa, he is perfect. (break) . . . this stage of understanding Kṛṣṇa, your knowledge is imperfect. (break) . . . śāstras , but unfortunately we do not refer to the authority of the śāstras . We manufacture our own way. No, actually what has happened is that there has been too many interpretations. There cannot be interpretations. No, there are certain people . . . That is foolishness. That is what I said, huh. So there are so many interpretations that you get confused. Because of the same thing, some interpret, say, a different way. *One thing is that you have to become intelligent. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Now why I shall accept interpretation on these plain words? That is my foolishness. If somebody says, " dharma-kṣetra means this body and Pāṇḍava means the five senses," why this nonsense interpretation? If you are not intelligent, then you will accept such rascals interpreting unnecessarily. Interpretation is required when things are not very clear. But when the things are clear, why you should accept interpretation? That is my foolishness. There is no need of interpretation. (break) . . . is it still there? Why, if the rascal interprets, "Kurukṣetra means this body," why shall I accept it? Kurukṣetra is still there. There is no difficulty to understand. And if somebody interprets . . . (break) . . . interpretation, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that as soon as you interpret, the whole thing is lost. So why shall I be so foolish, I shall accept something which is lost? No. Rather, Kṛṣṇa had His own interpretation. That may be, but why shall I accept? . . . had His own interpretation rather. All the people who share . . . *You have, interpretation, you have to refer to the Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā says as soon as you accept interpretation, it is lost. Then the meaning is lost. Bās . So under the circumstances . . . that means I am also foolish. Any rascal gives any interpretation—I accept. That is my foolishness. So why should I become foolish? Radhakrishnan may be very big man, but if he does something wrong, he will be hanged. *No, he . . . ślokas are there. All the Bhagavad*-gītā ślokas are there. But I must have intelligence that why this rascal is interpreting in a different way. And Sanskrit is the language. So it has got the same . . . *No, no, it is not very difficult. Just like in the Ninth Chapter, Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). And Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Why? Kṛṣṇa says, "Just think of Me— man-manāḥ —just become My devotee, and just offer Me obeisances, worship Me." It is plain language. And if some rascal says: "No, no, it is not to Kṛṣṇa," why shall I accept it? It is not the personified Kṛṣṇa. You have read it? Yes. Yes, you see. I shall immediately detect that here is a rascal. Because Kṛṣṇa says personally, and he says it is not to the person. Just see. But Kṛṣṇa had been on this earth in flesh and bones. *That is history, Mahābhārata . And all the ācāryas , they have accepted—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka. Svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me (BG 10.13). Arjuna accepts Him, Para*-brahman. You are Para-brahman. Not that "Because I am Your friend and I am accepting You as Para-brahman," but all the ācāryas , they have accepted. (break) . . . mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam . "Because I am talking with you as a human being, only rascals, they think I am human being." If you think Kṛṣṇa as having flesh and bone, then you become a rascal, immediately. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam , paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11): "I am not made of this bone and flesh. I am cinmaya , I am fully spirit soul." So one who does not know it, he is a rascal. So as soon as you will say that He is made of bone and flesh, that means you are rascal. (laughter) Why shall I hear you? When Lord Kṛṣṇa came into being, I mean . . . That does not mean that . . . suppose I am here. I am driving with you. But there is difference between you and me. So Kṛṣṇa comes as human being, that does not mean He is human being. Why don't you understand this? That is okay. But from the normal, you know . . . That is your study. That is foolish study. Therefore He says avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11): "The rascals think that I am one of the human being." If he is one of the human being, how he can say, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). In the human society, there are big men, you are big man, I am small man, he is still more, he is still more, he is still bigger. There are so many varieties. But He says: "No more superior than Me." And that is God. No one is supreme than Him. Yes. That He says, of course. He says everything, but because we are foolish we do not hear Him. That is the difficulty. We don't understand Him. No, we understand. But we do not accept it. We don't accept it. What is the difficulty to understand? God is superior. Everyone knows it. But I will not accept, he will not accept. Unless one is superior, how He can be God? (break) . . . sevayā . Therefore you have to find out somebody who knows Him. Otherwise you will be in darkness. (break) *(indistinct Hindi) . . . over bridge. But where we are going, Ambleshwar, from there Kṛṣṇā*-nadī starts. *Oh. Kṛṣṇā*-nadī is for us. From Ambleshwar. Then there is old, old mandir, very old mandir, temple, there are five, they say, five nadīs are coming. Oh, Kaumuda, Kāverī . . . Kṛṣṇā, Kāverī, Veṇā . . . five rivers, they say, they flow from there. We will go there. Tomorrow morning we'll go there. (break) . . . just now. In the morning it was little cold. Now it is very pleasing. It is. But since you have been going all over the Europe and Am . . . you must be accustomed to cold. It is severe cold. Oh, yes. I was going to morning walk when there was snowfall. I was walking on snow. Actually when snow falls it is not very cold, but when there is breeze, then it is very unbearable. Ah, yes. (break) . . . the first month, I think, except April and May. All the rest months. All the year. May is quite hot, and April . . . Beginning. Not beginning. Middle of April to May and June. Then in June rain starts. (break) *. . . legislation that fifty percent of revenues was spent in military. Bhaya*-vitta . (break) Tad guru vijñāta . . . Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). *Guru*-vijñāna . . . (indistinct) *No. This is Vedic injunction. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Abhigacchet , this word is used. This means "must," vidhi*-liṅ . This is the form of vidhi-liṅ , in grammar. Vidhi-liṅ is applied when there is no question of duality. You must. If you want to know that transcendental science, you must approach guru . Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham . And who is guru ? Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam. Śrotriyam means one who is guru by hearing from his guru , śrotriyam . This is paramparā . Not that all of a sudden he becomes guru . No. That is not guru . Guru means śrotriyam. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). And after hearing perfectly from his guru , he is brahma-niṣṭham . Just like Arjuna, after hearing from Kṛṣṇa, his guru , he became devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Not became, he was devotee. Still he became perfect devotee. Brahma-niṣṭham . This is the guru's qualification. *And in another, the Bhāgavata it is said, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). One must surrender to guru who is actually inquisitive, yes, about the Absolute Truth. What kind of inquisitive? Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam : the best aim of life or transcendental aim of life. He requires guru . Then what is guru' s qualification? The next line is that tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam, śābde pare ca niṣṇātam (SB 11.3.21). Guru is completely in awareness of all the Vedic knowledge. That is guru . Not a loafer class. (laughter) Śrotriyam . One who has heard perfectly Vedas from his guru . And what is the symptom that he has heard from the authority of the . . .? Brahma*-niṣṭham. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . The symptom is that he has completely taken shelter of the Supreme Brahman, rejecting or finishing all material desires. No more material desires. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . He has taken shelter of Brahman, upaśama , rejecting—no more hankering after anything material. No more hankering. But he has to eat. He has to eat, he has to clothe. Yes, that is not hankering. That is not hankering. The minimum needs of the body. *(indistinct) . . . so long the body is there. That is wanted. Just like about the Gosvāmīs it is said, nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . One has to conquer over sleeping, eating, sex and fearing. A saintly person has no fearing, because he depends on Kṛṣṇa. But these things particularly conquered over. Simply little eating, that's all. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi . At least trying to conquer over sleeping, eating and sex. Sleeping, eating and . . . Sex life. (break) . . . sleeping at all, or some little sleep? Practically no sleeping. Practically no eating and no sex life. Sleeping means actual sleeping or awareness, I mean awakening of the mind or awakening . . . No, actual sleeping. Sleeping means waste of time. So long you sleep, it is a waste of time. Better reduce sleep. But you have to sleep sometimes. Yes, some, some. Some part of the day or part of the . . . That also you will find, those who are highly elevated, they can avoid. They can completely avoid sleeping? Hundred percent? No. They can, but they do not show like that. (laughter) Otherwise, artificially one would like to imitate it. But in the medical theory they are saying so much insomnia. No insomnia, he becomes mad. (laughter) That is another thing. That is disease. One of my parents' friends, she hadn't been to sleep for seven months because of a nervous condition when she was going crazy. I saw that. There must be sleeping pills. Yes, in Western countries, tranquilizer. I was in America, you know. So in New York I stayed in one hotel, and every evening, that bellboy, he was keeping two tablets for each of us in the room. Actually, I don't know what type of tablets they have done. We have slept thoroughly. In the morning he came to make the bedding. So he said, "Sir, you have not taken these tablets?" I said: "What are these tablets?" "Sleeping pills." I said, "No, I don't take it." "And you could sleep?" I said: "Yes." Then he said: "Can I have these?" "Yes, yes, you can have by all means." (laughter) So he took away all the pills for his own use. So I mean most of the people, they can't sleep without these sleeping pills. Their mind is so agitated and so disturbed. This material . . . *Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyām , in the śāstra it is said: "In the material world everyone is always full of anxiety." Full of anxiety. The more you're engrossed in material things, the more anxiety you are in. *Yes. That is explained. Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because he has accepted something which is asat—asat means which will not endure, such things—on account of this, he is always full of anxieties. Asat , this body is asat . Asad-grahāt . Because we have accepted this material body, we must be always full of anxieties. Asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). Although this body is temporary, still, so long the body is there, he will suffer. Kleśada . Kleśada means always giving trouble—this trouble, that trouble, this trouble, that trouble. This road straight leads to Bangalore, Madras. This road goes to south, entire south. You can go by this road only to Kanyakumari. Oh! Yes, Cape Comorin, right up to Calicut. And all the tīrthas are on the four sides. Very good road? Last year in the month of December I went to Rāmeśvaram. On this road? On this road. Of course, I went by air to Bangalore, and from there we went by car. But this road goes straight. (break) . . . by car, to Calcutta by air, then from there to that Bhubaneshwar by train, and then from there by car, like that. (break) It is very small place, Dvārakā. It is very small place, and in that leak was, an entire area was destroyed completely. Even communications could not be restored for three months. But Dvārakā itself was untouched completely. But on the way we found, because we went by car from here, we found roads, everything was destroyed completely. You could see demolished, the tops of houses gone away in the cyclone. Maharashtra Province is rich? I don't think so. It is like this, that Maharashtra is industrially quite stable. But that only Bombay and one, two cities. The rest of the Maharashtra is poor. There is not much cultivation. But industry, it belongs to the other persons, not to the Maharashtrians. Hmm? All these Bombay industries, they belong to the outsiders. *Outsiders. Now in Punjab, for instance, now they have created sufficient wheat to cater the entire country. That is four*-fifths of the total need of the country of wheat is supplied by Punjab. But it is always. Punjab and Haryana, now they are two, but both together. Punjab is the best province in India. You know we came and settled in Poona after partition of the country. Previously we were in Rawalpindi. (to the driver) Kya kar rahe ho bhai? (What are you doing brother?) (break) . . . on my way to Kashmir. Yes, because at Rawalpindi you could get taxi, then buses. After Rawalpindi you have to go by train. Then from there you could get car, taxi, and in those days there were yakas also. You know. Tongas. Tongas or buses. (break) *. . . young age when I was twenty*-five years. (break) . . . via Jammu. Jammu, Jammu and Kashmir. Yes. And I came back via Rawalpindi. Ācchā , you came back via Rawalpindi. (break) You have, I mean, thought of spiritual bending, or spiritual . . . *No, we are trained up, because we belong to Kṛṣṇa family. So Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship is our family tradition. Our forefathers, my father, my maternal uncles, we are Vaiṣṇava family, belonging to the Caitanya- sampradāya . But how you entered in business, I mean. Because we were trained up from the very beginning of our life by our father, mother. Grandfather also? *Yes, our whole family. We have our family Deity, Dāmodara. In my childhood I was worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities. And then, fortunately, I got my Guru Mahārāja, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. So this was a good fortune, from the very beginning we were trained up. So in the beginning of our life, I was worshiping Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and playing with Ratha-yātrā. The same thing is being done now, in a larger scale. (laughter) Nitya yukta upāsate . There is no change. *People must be very curious in California when this Ratha*-yātrā, Jagannātha. They must be very curious. *Yes. But they enjoy very much. They enjoy very much. Those who are even not my students, they also come to me, "Thank you, Prabhupāda. Thank you, Prabhupāda." They say like that. They enjoy very much, dance like anything, when the Ratha*-yātrā goes. They say: "It is life." They are dancing. "This is life. We do not know what is happening, but we are dancing." They say like that. Dancing, this ballroom dancing? *No, around the road, Hare Kṛṣṇa dancing. (laughter) There is no need of ballroom. They become mad, dancing. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana*-gāna-nartana-parau . That is ecstasy. So when the ecstasy is there, they understand this is life. (break) Mr. Biyani, Biyani. He is just Birla's tea company chairman looking after tea. Last time I was in Delhi about two months back, so I just talked about you that I had to meet you and we could go to Vṛndāvana. Because at that time I was told that you were there. So he knew you very well; he had been to your discourses, Mr. Biyani. He's Marwari. They are in Calcutta, that tea business, export tea business. We agreed on one this thing, that it is very easy, rather, to make Indians understand the spiritual teachings of Lord Kṛṣṇa, because in homes, in houses, forefathers, grandmothers, mothers, they are doing, I mean, always. But to, I mean, impart this knowledge to the . . . Foreigners. Foreigners, and that to who have more or less completely, I mean, very much away from the spiritual life, very much engrossed in material life, very much engrossed. And it was something very, very, very difficult, right? Without the blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself . . . (laughter) Therefore their fathers are charging me that "This man knows something, mesmerism." (laughter) Their fathers are charging with that this man knows some mesmerism. (laughter) Brainwash. Brainwash, ācchā. How you entered in their hearts? Mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Hare Kṛṣṇa mesmerism. That is also mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . *Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). This is the process of cleansing the heart. So if it is done properly, everyone becomes cleansed of all dirty things. Naturally he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. I was rather very much surprised when I first met, Prabhupāda, about four or five devotees on the streets of this Honolulu, Honolulu first. Because I went from this side, Japan, Hong Kong, Thailand, and then entered in America through Honolulu, Hawaii. So when I went I was just in the morning, I was trying to get the tourist bus for moving in the whole city to see. And then on the main road, you know that main road . . . have you been to Honolulu? No. He has gone. Ācchā . You have been to Honolulu? Yeah. Five devotees were having drums, this khol , they were dancing like, I mean, in their own mood, you know. So then I had a curiosity. I just stopped one of them and I said: "Well, mister, I would like to know about all this." He said, "Yes, you come to our temple in the morning and we'll tell you all about it." But I said that, "What you are doing?" "We are playing kīrtana ." I said, "Well, why you are out on the streets?" "Because these all demons. These are all demons, you know." Demons. ". . . demons, you know. So those who do not have any spiritual knowledge, so we want to penetrate in their ears, and through their ears in their hearts, the name of Kṛṣṇa. So that even if they don't like it, well, the Kṛṣṇa name should enter in their hearts." That is . . . this mantra . . . "So that is what we are doing. So even if they don't like it we are doing. So whosoever is passing by, he will have at least his ears will be accustomed to hear the name of Lord Kṛṣṇa." I said: "But in *Gītā* it is said that those who do not wish to know the true knowledge, well, it is forbidden for the devotees or for the followers to tell them anything about spiritual knowledge." "So that, sir, we are not giving, imparting knowledge to each individual by catching them. We are just playing ourselves. So whosoever likes it, he can stand by us. Otherwise we are not . . ." So they replied also correctly to this also. Yes, and Kṛṣṇa says . . . Ācchā , then I said: "What is this?" "This is śikhā ." I said: "Well what it is meant for?" So he said: "Well, this is the . . ." What he told me was this exactly, that the aerial of knowledge. He said that this is the aerial of knowledge. I said: "Is it your own interpretation?" "No, but I think that I feel that way. This is the aerial of knowledge." (break) . . . that, "You come have prasādam in the morning." So next day we had to leave actually. So we were in the morning busy going to airport. Then I met in this New York. Then when I came to Europe, then I was sitting in one restaurant in London, and then a big group of about 15, 18, 20 devotees, they were having a good chanting, and they were . . . Our men regularly go on the Oxford St. Yes, Oxford. On that street only there was Indian restaurant where this rasagullās and tea and all that is available. So we were sitting having our this thing, and then they passed. Our men, they can prepare rasagullā , samosā , kachorī . Now this Bombay center, when I visited, Girirāja he showed me, and the restaurant, that vegetarian restaurant which will be coming up, that is good. (break) . . . I mean is it regular new films are being made, or only one or two films have been made so far? We make more films. There's another one just coming up now which explains the philosophy in more detail. The films were to show general activities, that was The Hare Kṛṣṇa People. The new film was to show the farming scheme that Prabhupāda set up in New Vrindavan, and many other farms we have now. And there was one other film to show how the books are produced and then delivered to the public. So gradually more and more are coming out. You know one thing I have found that there is spotless cleanliness, you know, in the centers. Whereas in our temples here in India, even when we go to say Hardwar and Rishikesh and all these, the temples, the outer cleanliness, not proper emphasis is given by the management. I stress on this cleanliness very much. If they keep unclean, I chastise them like anything. (laughing) They have learned this art. I always say, "Cleanliness is next to godliness." *About two years back, two, three of your devotees came to our house here. Naturally we offered them, "Would you like to have coffee, tea?" They said: "No." Then we said: "Would you like to have Coca*-cola?" They said, "No." Then I said: "What would you like to have? Milk?" "Yes." Lassi , chach ? "Yes." Fruit. "Yes." It happened so that Girirāja came to us twice, and twice it was this ekādaśī . Now ekādaśī day they are not supposed to eat this wheat or flour or anything. So when last we came to Mahabaleshwar, so we brought some paraṭās with this gobi in it. Ekādaśī . We didn't know about ekādaśī . When we came to Mahabaleshwar, we opened. They said: "No, we can't eat because it is ekādaśī ." So we thought that, "No, you won't eat, so it looks odd that we should eat." But we were very hungry, you know. In the morning we didn't take anything. We said: "All right, we eat, now we will go to the bazaar and see if we could get something." Then we went to Mahabaleshwar, it was all closed, because it was raining season. And then there was one shop which had bananas, you know, good amount of bananas. So we took one dozen or two dozen bananas, and then . . . (laughs) Banana is very good. You can make banana and potato. Potato boil and mixed with banana, and make nice purī . And then . . . *How Girirāja, I just ask you, how you sort of took to all these good things, I would say, of life? I mean in natural form, or with some self*-discipline, or with some coercion, or with some what? It was Prabhupāda's mercy. I was looking for a guru . Actually, whenever I heard there was a svāmī or a yogī , I would always go, even hundreds of miles. But I was never satisfied. But Śrīla Prabhupāda perfectly satisfied all of my questions. And I liked the process—chanting, dancing, taking prasādam , offering ārati —and I liked the devotees. It was very pleasing. So I immediately decided this is my real life. No, but not taking any wheat, like on ekādaśī day, all such things, I mean. That's training. Once we surrender to the spiritual master, then he trains us in the process of spiritual life. *Sādhu*-mārgānugamanam. Ādau gurvāśrayaṁ sad-dharma-pṛcchāt sādhu-mārgānugamanam . These are the process. *Sādhu*-mārga . *Sādhu*-mārga . We study the śāstras every morning and evening in all of our centers, so we become educated. (break) Four places: Hardwar, Prayāga, Vṛndāvana . . . But after every eleven years or . . .? No. It comes in rotation, every four years. *Every four years. So there are sort of ardha*-kumbhīs and then kumbha . *Yes. In Allahabad they actually hold every year, Māgha*-mela . *Māgha*-mela . But this is not every year, this time people are . . . It is very, I mean to say, atmosphere becomes surcharged. Great spiritual advancement. Very nice. Abhi 15 tarik ko wahan par kuch hai kuch, aap ja rahe hain, kab jayenge? (On 15th there is some event happening there. Are you going? When are you going?) ' Jayenge 15 tarik tak. aap aaiye. (Yes I will go around 15th.) Iran is like that, but no green, simply sand. They are the mountains of Deccan. They say that these all mountains were under sea. *Yes, everything was . . . pralaya*-payodhi-jale dhṛtavān asi vedam . (break) *Swamiji yahan par bhi south me bade ache*-ache mandir hain. (Swamiji, here also in the South there are very good temples.) (break) . . . for quite some time at a particular spot. This spot was shown to us. And people have very great reverence for that spot. So now, at one time we accept Lord Rāma the supreme master of a particular yuga , and then He had to worship Lord Śiva. So who is, I mean, supreme? Lord Śiva or Lord Rāma? Lord Rāma is the Lord. Śiva is devotee. Sometimes you wash the feet of your son. That does not mean you are a servant Sometime . . .? You wash the feet of your son. But that does not mean you are a servant of the son. Kṛṣṇa . . . why Rāma? Kṛṣṇa, when Sudāmā Vipra came to His house, He washed his feet. Sab bhakton ke bhagat. (The supreme of all the devotees.) *Kṛṣṇa immediately got down from His siṁhāsana and took his lotus . . . touch his feet. And Nārada Muni was smiling. Nara*-līlā. Nārada Muni was smiling. Ye bhagvan kya kar rahe hain? (What is God doing?) Nārada Muni knew it that He is the Supreme Lord, but he did not check it. He let Lord Kṛṣṇa bow. This is the biggest paradox. *Mad*-bhakta-pūjābhyadhika (SB 11.19.21). Kṛṣṇa is pleased when His devotee is worshiped. Kṛṣṇa kabhi-kabhi radharani ka payr choota hai. (Kṛṣṇa sometimes touches the feet of Radharani.) Now I went to Dvārakā Purī, so there is Bheda Dvārakā in the sea. One is Dvārakā Purī, then about, I think, ten, twelve miles away there is Bheda Dvārakā. At Bheda Dvārakā, that is the residential palace of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and seven rāṇīs of Lord Kṛṣṇa. They show each building, their whole building. So what was that? Kṛṣṇa had 16,108 queens. 16,108 queens. 16,108. But there they show only, I think, 8 or 7. All are described, that He had 16,000 palaces. And Nārada Muni came to see Him, what He is doing actually. He saw different activities, and Kṛṣṇa expanded Himself to 16,108. Each rāṇī had ten sons, Each rāṇī had ten sons. *And they had sons also. In this way the Yadu*-vaṁśa was crores. There was one story that Lord Kṛṣṇa was going on rath (chariot), and then He had to be at the place of horse of the rath because of some śhrap (curse) of some muni. That is given there.Idhar bhuma do. (Turn around here.) (break) So we get frustrated. But where the first apple came? Where the very seed of first apple planted on this earth planet? *Yes. Bījo 'haṁ sarva*-bhūtānām (BG 7.10). Kṛṣṇa answered this question. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām : "I am the original seed of everything." Otherwise, it is very difficult, that wherefrom the very first seed came. And He says another place: *Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). Everything is answered in Bhagavad*-gītā . (break) There is river, there is fountain . . . River, fountain . . . (indistinct) . . . volumes. (break) *. . . written by D. L. Raya. Dhana dhanyo puspa bhara amader ei vasundhārā . . . (indistinct) . . . hari hari āche. Tāhar majhe āche deśe eka sakala deśe sera . "Out of all these countries, there is a first*-class country, and that is my country, India." Dhana dhanyo puspa bhara amader ei vasundhārā , Tāhar majhe āche deśe eka sakala deśe sera . So the India is sakala deśe sera , the best of all other countries. best of all countries. Aisa kyon hai, Indai ko hi shreya mile sara. (Why is it that India gets all the credit?) All saints . . . *No, actually, India is the best country. There is no doubt. Even these boys, they say India is the best. Puṇya*-bhūmi . Religion agar study karna hai to India. sab communist ko sikhate hain (If you want to study religion then go to India. They teach all the communists) that "If you want to study religion, then go to India." These boys of Western countries, they come to India not to learn the so-called science. They have enough in their country. They do not come here how to manufacture aeroplane. For technology we have to go there. There is no need. No need. It is simply bogus. The first thing you require . . . you have got this body. You have to eat something and you have to dress yourself. You can get from this land. Keep some cows, grow your agricultural product, and sow cotton, then all economic problem is solved. And save time and understand what is your relationship with God. That is India. This is Vedic civilization. This era happened in the past similar. India is based on this principle. In every era demons and good people must be. That is there. Always must be there. The ratio may be different. Yes. Bad and good, mātra may be different. But India is especially meant for understanding God. That is India's . . . just like this place, such a nice place, automatically you'll remember God. You will like this place, this Panchgani, where we are going now. A wonderful peaceful place, very peaceful. The atmosphere . . . (break) . . . live peacefully, save time, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is my mission. The requirement of every human being is . . . Very simple. Very simple. But all these, you know, these added, added, added . . . That is asuric. Yes. To increase artificially necessities of life. And become entangled. *These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life. The aim of life is to go back home, back to Godhead. That they do not know. They are trying to adjust things by material arrangement. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā . This hope will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . This material energy is the external energy of the Lord. So they are enamored by the external energy; *they have no information of the internal energy, svarūpa-śakti . Just like every one of us in the conditioned state, we are busy with this body, the external energy. And the internal energy, the soul, is there. We have no information. Although we practically daily see that as soon as the internal energy is off, it is nothing but as good as the stone. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ . They are giving importance to this external energy. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And they are being encouraged by the so-called leaders to give stress on this external energy, although they are tightly tied with the laws of nature. The laws of nature will finish this body. But still they are attached to this body. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ . I had been to that Gandhi's place. Gandhi's place, Wardha. Wardha. And I saw his cottage and everything. So I said this is the . . . after all, he wanted to live very simple life in a cottage. Why he declared war against the Britishers? What was the necessity? Boliye hamara question theek hai ki nahi to unko . . . me hi rehna hai. (Tell me if my question is correct or not, so they must stay in the . . .) Britishers would never tackled you or objected. The villagers were using. Why so much energy was engaged, to drive away the Britishers? No, he wanted the country to be free from the foreign rule. No, now what freedom we have got? (laughter) That is a different thing. *But that means . . . we do not get such information from Bhagavad*-gītā , that "Make your country free." Why he took Bhagavad-gītā and did this business, mislead people? He took Bhagavad-gītā and he was busy declaring war. Because politically, sometimes required. But the thing is that if your ideal is to live very simple life . . . his, I mean to say, followers, Jawaharlal Nehru, he did not take up this. He used to stay in bhangi colonies, Gandhi. Hmm? *So, and he was killed in the bhangi colony. No, he was killed in the Birla's place. And there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. Although he was thinking, "This is my life, Bhagavad*-gītā "—without Kṛṣṇa. What is this? *Bhagavad*-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? He never commented on Third Chapter. *No, no. Any chapter. The beginning is bhagavān uvāca . Now how he can describe Bhagavān? This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). *He used Bhagavad*-gītā for political purposes. *That is, political purpose, you may. But even politically, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7): "Fight. But always remember Me." That is politics. Kṛṣṇa never says that you forget and fight. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). This is Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa never says that, "You give up politics." Actually, the Battle of Kurukṣetra is politics. But still Kṛṣṇa is there. How you can discard Kṛṣṇa? Yes, Battle of Kurukṣetra was fought . . . Politics. Senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta. Senayor ubhayor madhye (BG 1.21): "Between the two soldiers, keep my chariot, my dear Acyuta." He is addressing Acyuta. Acyuta, Kṛṣṇa, agreed to become his chariot driver. Therefore he is purposefully using this word acyuta . "Because I know You are the Supreme Lord, and I am ordering You, but because You promised that You will carry my order, Acyuta, You never fail in Your work." So God's another name is Acyuta. God never falls down. This Māyāvādī theory that, "I am God, now I am fallen down," that is wrong theory. How God can fall down? If God falls down He is not God. Dog fall down, not the God. How can He be supreme if He can fall down? *Yes. Na māṁ karmāṇi limpanti na me karma*-phale spṛhā (BG 4.14): "I have nothing to do, and neither if anyway I act, the resultant action does not affect Me." But we are all karma-phala vatya . So how God and myself can be equal? Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa . There is daiva , there is superior arrangement. According to my karma I get a different type of body. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye (SB 3.31.1). But when I surrender my karmas to Almighty . . . *Then ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣ . . . (BG 18.66), then Kṛṣṇa takes care of you. Then those karmas don't affect . . .? *No. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (BS 5.54). Those who are bhaktas , their karmas are finished. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi . Devotee is not under karma-phala . Hmm? *Devotee is not under karma*-phala . He is Brahman, immediately. Liberated soul. Without being liberated, nobody can be engaged in devotional service. (break) Then if one understands ahaṁ brahmāsmi . . . No, simply does not understand ahaṁ brahmāsmi , but he engages himself in devotional service. That is not the end. Simply by understanding that "I am this," that is not sufficient. "I am this, and this is my duty." "I am this, and this is my duty." Then that is what is . . . Yes. That is liberation. *That is perfection of brahma*-jñāna . But in the final analysis, at . . . Final analysis is devotional service. The paraṁ pada . They even advocate, means Lord Kṛṣṇa advocates, that all icchā , every type of icchā , icchā of even mukti . . . *That is negation. Just like you become freed from fever. So the symptoms of fever finished. But your healthy life begins. And after submission of the fever, still you lie down, that is not cured. Cure will be recognized when you work in your healthy state. That is bhakti . After becoming brahma*-bhūya , the activities should be devotional service. Then it is healthy life, liberated life. Without any ākāṅkṣā . Yes. Ākāṅkṣā is also there. That ākāṅkṣā is different. That ākāṅkṣā , how to please Kṛṣṇa, that ākāṅkṣā . In the material stage, the ākāṅkṣā is how to please my senses. In the liberated stage, how to please Kṛṣṇa. By pleasing Lord, one does not please one's own ego also to some extent? It is just like if you put water on the root of the tree, so all the parts of the tree may become satisfied, automatically. Or if you put food in the stomach, all the parts of your body becomes satisfied—that is automatic. You don't require to make a separate endeavor. That is not required. Is there any difference between the ego of a person who is collecting money, or material things, all his life, or a person who is giving all the material things for the service of the humanity at large? Is there any difference between the two? *To give your fruits of . . . result of your fruitive activities, either you give to yourself or to your brothers and sisters, it is the same thing. Expanded. Just like a child eats, but when he is little grown up, he gives to his brother also. But the principle is the same. But when you give everything to God, that is liberated stage. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat kuruṣva tad mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27). Meaning? Meaning, "Whatever you do, you give me Me; whatever you eat, you give to Me." Yad aśnāsi dadāsi yat : "You want to give in charity, you give to Me." (break) We have to cross this hill? Yes, we have to cross the hill. And then we again go on plain, then to cross another hill. But they are small, only three, four miles. We have already crossed one near Poona. That was also a small hill. This is called Khandala ghat. That was called (marathi) Kaprij. Some Kaprij Rishi, I think. Ah, there's the name, Kaprij. (break) Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana. And Bombay. Now in March it will be completed, this Kṛṣṇa center? It will be almost completed, but we will open. Everything will begin, our activities. Tumhen dekha gaya hai? (You have seen?) Ah. They say it will be a unique temple in Bombay. (break) The whole planning. My son is getting married on 24th of January. The younger son who went to factory this morning. He is getting married. And we are going, taking bride from here to Juhu. There is Hotel Horizon there, near Kṛṣṇa Land. So the bride will be staying there in Horizon, and then from there procession will be going to Sun and Sand, Sun and Sand, so on 24th. Whether you will be in Bombay or not, 24th January? May not be. Because Kumbha Mela is there. (break) . . . that auditorium. Yes, auditorium. This road goes to Bangalore straight, and we go to Mahabaleshwar. This is side. Bangalore how many miles? Total, from Poona, 520 miles. And you go from here on this road only to Goa also. Goa. Goa, yes. To go to Madras, you go also on this road. (break) . . . dolak. Some people will give . . . I mean sounds are different, you know, instruments are music. *This is called musical science, Jala*-taraṅga . Jala . Taraṅga means vibration, different vibration. Still there are, among the musicians, there are artists, they'll put vials and make the different tune by filling it with water: dn-dn-dn-dn , dn-dn . (break) This place is full of tourists from Bombay, from all of Gujarat. (break) Panchgani is one place, and twelve miles' difference, Mahabaleshwar. Also it is twin city like Secunderabad, Hyderabad. (break) In the morning when you go for walk you will find local ladies getting load of food from collected from the forests and taking. Very old, old type of life. (break) . . . this place. I visited Switzerland, and I visited almost every hill station of the country, and almost practically entire world. But I find this place of a different solace. (break) . . . and second, it is very neat and clean. Maharashtrians are very neat and clean. Upper class, they are very. (break) . . . karmī. Good man. Good man from worldly point of view, but from spiritual point of view, in the lowest stage. Karmī is the lowest stage. Lowest stage. Yes. Then jñānī , then yogī , then bhakta . More a politician. Yes. Karmī means this how to enjoy this world. Whole life they have struggled how to enjoy this: "How to enjoy myself. How to allow my men to enjoy." This is karmī platform. Everyone is doing that. Everyone is working hard for himself, for his family, and expand the family, for society, and expand the society, for the nation. Here is karmī plan. Gandhi, Birla, they are all . . . there is no question of spiritual life. Now this is the Kṛṣṇā River. You just see how small it is, and how big it becomes later on. In the rainy season this road is closed because this all water comes up, you know. Now it is just a small rivulet. This is Kṛṣṇā River. And it comes just opposite our place, from where it starts, from the mountain. Here is the place called Haya. This was also one of the biggest Sanskrit University in the older time, like that of Taksashila. And Sarnath, near Sarnath, what is that place? Not Sarnath—there in Bihar, that place, that was also very big university, no? Oh, Taxsila. No Taxsila was in Punjab, that side. In Bengal, Bihar, that . . . Darbhanga. I visited that. So this was the seat of very old temples, oldest temples in this place, this Haya. And they say this is one of the oldest of the oldest towns or cities of the country. Small place, Taseer with a population of about 10–15,000 people. All the temples are in the Kṛṣṇā River, in the Kṛṣṇā River. (break) Whatever I am today, that is all due to my past karmas, good or bad, I mean. Yes. And whatever I am doing today, that I will have to reap the harvest in the future. You are creating the next position. So that means that I am bound by my past karmas. My destiny, my fate, is tied with the past karmas . So I have no other goal but to have the phala of past karmas . Or can I change my fate? Yes. You are enjoying the past karmas , and you are creating new karmas . But can I . . . then this means a circle that I'll always be. *Karma*-cakra . *Karma*-cakra . So how can one be out of this cakra? That cakra , you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And put all the karmas . . . Yes, He says: "You surrender. I square up all your karma ." Then only square up. Otherwise, no. Otherwise continue in this vicious circle. *Dharmasyāsya parantapa mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu*-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). Karma-cakra , this mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani , one after another, one body after another, one body after another, this will continue. If you don't come to Kṛṣṇa, then nivartante , mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani , you have to return again to that karma-cakra . The only way out is to surrender your . . .? To accept Kṛṣṇa that, "You are my Lord. I forgot it. I surrender. Kindly accept me." How to surrender? Surrender, there are six items. Six items. Yes. That, "If I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection. I am one of His servants. And whatever He does, accept that." Good or bad. There is no bad. Everything is good. And first accept what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa, to reject what is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa. And what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa? How one knows? *Kṛṣṇa says. Do that. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Always think of Kṛṣṇa, become His devotee, offer obeisances. It doesn't require any extra endeavor, these things. Whatever you have got, you can do it. You can think of Kṛṣṇa without any impediment. Who can check it if you think of Kṛṣṇa? This is favorable. And what is unfavorable, that should be rejected. What is favorable, that should be accepted. And to believe firmly that "Now I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." (break) But dog has got a quality that he surrenders to his master. The master is a Vaiṣṇava, then dog gets the benefit. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya, mat para, mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mat para, mat para (BG 9.32). When the process is there, everyone can surrender, that "I shall act only what is favorable to get Kṛṣṇa's mercy." Yes. "And I shall not act any way which is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa." These first two determinations. And then, "Because I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." You believe in it. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). Believe in it. "Now I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. My all resultant actions of sinful life is finished. I will not come again." In this way. If one surrenders, how to know that Kṛṣṇa has accepted? That you will understand. Just like if you eat, you will understand that you are eating. Nobody has to convince you. You will be convinced. The test of the pudding is by eating. Not by simply telling. When you eat, you haven't got to ask somebody else, "Do you think I am happy?" You'll feel yourself. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). If you are actually devotee, then you will be detestful to all material things. (break) . . . mouse of the mountain. (laughter) Yes, he was declared mouse of the mountain. (break) Yes. If you want material power, you must be worshiper of Durgā. And if you want spiritual . . .? Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. This Bālajī is Viṣṇu? Viṣṇu. How then Viṣṇu, the incarnations, Kṛṣṇa, then Viṣṇu's incarnation . . . Viṣṇu is everything. If you want material power, you can get it from Viṣṇu. Material power from Viṣṇu? Yes, Viṣṇu can give everything. Paramaṁ puruṣa is Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu can give the power of bhakti also. Everything. Yes. Bhakti is . . . generally He gives bhakti . If you want something other than bhakti , you can get it. This is the center of M.R.A., Moral Rearmament. I phoned them for yesterday, so that Rajmohan Gandhi is away, not here. But the other people are here. We will visit this some time during the day. These days one conference is going on. There are 130 countries. Some conference. There? What is the subject? I don't know, remember. Oh, you may not know it, and this will do never any benefit. Now this is Panchgani, starts from here. Ah. . . . starts from here. (end) Conversation -- December 25, 1976, Bombay (Conversation with Mr. Tombe M.L.A.) After all, even if it is thrown out . . . *That is also answered in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam by very strong word. Bhāgavata says, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśu ḥ ( SB 2.3.19). If the public is like dogs, camel, hogs and asses, so what is the value of their election? He'll elect another big dog or camel. So there is chaos. Then how to throw out good leadership? Yes. Good leadership means you must learn how to lead people. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). If the śreṣṭha , the leader, is ideal, then others will follow. But if the leader is not ideal, if he is not in the awareness of things, then people will be misguided. So how can we chalk out a program of, say, training of leaders from villages . . . *Yes. You have to take lessons from the biggest leader, Kṛṣṇa. Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). He's the leader of the demigods also. We have to take lesson from. That lesson is there, Bhagavad*-gītā . But we do not take it. We manufacture our leadership. That is the defect. What Kṛṣṇa says . . . everyone is proud of reading Bhagavad-gītā , but the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā is how to kill Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That is their . . . all these. What can I say? These misleaders, they are doing that. Leadership is already there—Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is learning from Kṛṣṇa. So if you learn from Kṛṣṇa you become perfect leader. But we do not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. We manufacture our own ideas. That is failure. Otherwise in our country so many learned sages, especially Kṛṣṇa is there, and their books are there, their instructions are there. We do not take them. Still we become leader. So what kind of leading? He's imperfect, so he cannot lead. Then there will be some mistake and chaos. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said . . . He said, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). You understand little Bengali? So Indians, they can make their life perfect by following this Vedic literature, and they can lead the whole world. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. First of all you become perfect by taking lessons from the Vedic literature. And then you do good to others. But without making yourself perfect, if you try to do good to others, that is chaos. Then again comes, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Some blind men following another blind man, what will be the result? The present Indians, we have lost our own culture. We have rejected our own culture. Still we are leading people. There is chaotic condition. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to correct this mistake. So leaders like you should cooperate. . . . (indistinct) *Yes. Then things will be perfect. India . . . if the whole world can be saved from this chaotic position, India can do. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. But that India leaders first of all make his life perfect. Then it will be all right. Just like our . . . of course, I'm not proud, but I am alone. I started this movement alone, without any help. But because I am giving them the perfect information, whole world is taking it. Otherwise, from practical point of view, one man without any help, within ten years he cannot do like this. That's a fact. But I have no difficulty because I am following the supreme leader, Kṛṣṇa. People may say that I've done wonderful, but there is nothing magic. Because I am following Kṛṣṇa, the supreme leader, so far it has become successful. So everyone can do that. Where is the difficulty? Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam (BG 4.2). If we follow the paramparā system it is not difficult. These all are Prabhupāda's books. Eighty books. *Eighty*-four books we have . . . I have written within ten years. And our publication house, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the first in the world for publishing religious and philosophical books. We are selling not less than six lakhs worth books daily. This is Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, publishing division. (indistinct comments to another devotee) I have got only a few of them now. I would like to pick up . . . Here, these are . . . we only have sample copies in India. So I'll tell Girirāja to bring you some. These are only sample copies for Prabhupāda's display. (end) Conversation -- December 25, 1976, Bombay (Conversation with Mr. Tombe M.L.A.) After all, even if it is thrown out . . . *That is also answered in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam by very strong word. Bhāgavata says, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśu ḥ ( SB 2.3.19). If the public is like dogs, camel, hogs and asses, so what is the value of their election? He'll elect another big dog or camel. So there is chaos. Then how to throw out good leadership? Yes. Good leadership means you must learn how to lead people. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). If the śreṣṭha , the leader, is ideal, then others will follow. But if the leader is not ideal, if he is not in the awareness of things, then people will be misguided. So how can we chalk out a program of, say, training of leaders from villages . . . *Yes. You have to take lessons from the biggest leader, Kṛṣṇa. Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). He's the leader of the demigods also. We have to take lesson from. That lesson is there, Bhagavad*-gītā . But we do not take it. We manufacture our leadership. That is the defect. What Kṛṣṇa says . . . everyone is proud of reading Bhagavad-gītā , but the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā is how to kill Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That is their . . . all these. What can I say? These misleaders, they are doing that. Leadership is already there—Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is learning from Kṛṣṇa. So if you learn from Kṛṣṇa you become perfect leader. But we do not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. We manufacture our own ideas. That is failure. Otherwise in our country so many learned sages, especially Kṛṣṇa is there, and their books are there, their instructions are there. We do not take them. Still we become leader. So what kind of leading? He's imperfect, so he cannot lead. Then there will be some mistake and chaos. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said . . . He said, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). You understand little Bengali? So Indians, they can make their life perfect by following this Vedic literature, and they can lead the whole world. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. First of all you become perfect by taking lessons from the Vedic literature. And then you do good to others. But without making yourself perfect, if you try to do good to others, that is chaos. Then again comes, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Some blind men following another blind man, what will be the result? The present Indians, we have lost our own culture. We have rejected our own culture. Still we are leading people. There is chaotic condition. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to correct this mistake. So leaders like you should cooperate. . . . (indistinct) *Yes. Then things will be perfect. India . . . if the whole world can be saved from this chaotic position, India can do. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. But that India leaders first of all make his life perfect. Then it will be all right. Just like our . . . of course, I'm not proud, but I am alone. I started this movement alone, without any help. But because I am giving them the perfect information, whole world is taking it. Otherwise, from practical point of view, one man without any help, within ten years he cannot do like this. That's a fact. But I have no difficulty because I am following the supreme leader, Kṛṣṇa. People may say that I've done wonderful, but there is nothing magic. Because I am following Kṛṣṇa, the supreme leader, so far it has become successful. So everyone can do that. Where is the difficulty? Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam (BG 4.2). If we follow the paramparā system it is not difficult. These all are Prabhupāda's books. Eighty books. *Eighty*-four books we have . . . I have written within ten years. And our publication house, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the first in the world for publishing religious and philosophical books. We are selling not less than six lakhs worth books daily. This is Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, publishing division. (indistinct comments to another devotee) I have got only a few of them now. I would like to pick up . . . Here, these are . . . we only have sample copies in India. So I'll tell Girirāja to bring you some. These are only sample copies for Prabhupāda's display. (end) Conversation A -- December 26, 1976, Bombay I have just come from America, and at the universities, lots of times there are many questions concerning evolution, and I was curious about what our position is in terms of artifacts—bones like dinosaur bones and things like that that the scientists say they found. Scientists are rascals, those who are following Darwin. What is their theory? *They maintain that from the oceans came one*-celled animals. Then from these one-celled animals, they developed into fish and then reptiles. And then these reptiles became very big dinosaurs. And they have put together many big museums. For instance, in Washington the Smithsonian Museum has many, many big bones put together, and they date these millions of years ago. *So we have got also the same theory. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāna). (break) . . . within water. So where is the difference? We also admit the forms of life begins from the ocean. Then plants. As soon as the water is dried, there are plants, trees. Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati . Sthāvara means the life which cannot move. So the trees, plants, grass, they cannot move. Then insects, then reptiles, then birds, then beast, then human being. In this way the living entity is changing body. So what is the difficulty? But they say that the human body developed right from these other bodies. In other words . . . Evolution, from beast human body has come. Where is the difference? Even there is difference, what is the idea? Well, they maintain that therefore man was not created by God, but simply by chemicals. Rascals! Wherefrom the life came first? Wherefrom the life came from? When you find life in the water, wherefrom this life came? They say originally it came from chemicals that came together. Rascal! Create from chemicals. Otherwise, beat them with shoes in their mouth. "Why you talk nonsense? Create from chemicals, life." (break) What do they say? They say they're working on it. Then be beaten with shoes. When you're successful, then say. Otherwise, I shall beat you with shoes. That's all. That is your punishment. You have not come to the experimental stage, and you are talking, "This is science." Science is experiment and observation. Unless the experiment is practical, practical science . . . it will be accepted as science when the experiment is successful. Not before that. That is scientific method. First of all, observe: "It may be happening like this." But that "maybe" should be confirmed by experiment. Then it is science. Even in colleges there is practical examination. Theoretical and practical. So unless . . . "We are trying." Everyone will say: "I am trying." "I am trying to become millionaire." When you become millionaire, then say that you are millionaire. You are trying for becoming millionaire, and you say, "I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? Huh? Yes. No one has ever observed the life coming from matter. Yes. Just prove that life comes from chemicals. How is that? "I am trying to be millionaire, therefore I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? You are trying to create from chemicals, therefore you are scientist. What's this kind of scientist? Beat them with shoes, that's all. *I have a researcher in our family, and he thinks the theory of evolution is the daśa*-avatāra . You can think like that. Your thinking has no value. No, not my thinking. Then don't say: "I am thinking." No, I said I have a researcher in our family; he thinks. What research? He's a rascal also! *No, but he thinks the daśa*-avatāra . . . "He thinks," means he's a rascal. Nothing to be think. It must be from the śāstra . Is there any evidence in śāstra that I could look? What is that? *The daśa*-avatāras , that the first was Matsya and then Kūrma and Varāha, and finally . . . That is God's pastime. He becomes like this, like that. It is not evolution. Not evolution. God is not so morphic. He's not an animal. Just like we're in this room but we don't become part of the room. (break) . . . so clear, but they refuse to accept it 'cause if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense. Huh? You make all these things so crystal clear, but they refuse to accept, because if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense. Refusal . . . let them refuse, and who cares for them? Actually, if they were successful in any experiment they would be out of a job. So they actually want material life, scientists. And now what is their science? This is science, that "We are trying"? What is this nonsense science? Do you think this is science? "We are trying." Everyone can say: "I'm trying." Is that science? Then? Any rascal can say that, "I am trying." Is that science? I heard that you had quoted a saying that anyone who goes to Laṅkā becomes a Rāvaṇa, and that similarly, when the devotees come to India, they become Rāvaṇa. I wonder if you would explain that or elaborate or explain how we can avoid this sort of thing happening. (break) I'm sorry? Ask the leaders. I was talking that in all our other branches, our men manage the cooking and kitchen, and as soon as they come here, they become . . . bara lath saheb (. . . big minister.) That is Rāvaṇa. Why do they not do here? We have to keep some cook who is neither initiated, nor very clean, a smoker, and we have to keep them. (break) In all other branches, the boys and girls, they manage everything. (break) . . . follow the regulations more strictly? That I have to say again? That means Rāvaṇa. He's asking. I am repeatedly saying that follow, and he's asking. That means he's Rāvaṇa. Why you are inquiring like that? If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? That means Rāvaṇa. If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? (break) . . . one week ago, and in just four days' time the devotees there have distributed over one lakh of Back to Godhead magazines in just four days. But you do not do here. Huh? That means Rāvaṇa. (laughter) (break) . . . to become less intelligent, less active, and therefore I say, yāya sei laṅkā sei haya rāvaṇa , "Anyone who comes to Laṅkā, he becomes Rāvaṇa." Their promotion in local language would be very helpful. No, in India will purchase English magazine, he knows English. Yes, he knows, but the popularity will be much more in the Hindi and Gujarati and Marathi speaking people, Bengali speaking. That is not possible. That is for you, Indians. But you have no time. You are busy with your daughter's marriage, and you simply advise. I am busy? Yes, everyone. Every Indian is busy with his own affair. He'll come and advise, that's all. Advise gratis. But he will not do himself. No, but . . . No, this is going . . . I have got full experience that Indians, they will come and give some advice, and go away for daughter's marriage. That's all. Well there are various types of Indians, you know. *That type of, ninety*-nine percent. *Just like ninety*-nine percent of us become lazy when we come to India. You'll advise, but you'll never do it. That is going on. *(break) . . . elephants dance, and we see. This is Indian policy. These white elephants, they'll come and dance, and you'll see. And you are busy with your daughter's marriage. That's all. (break) . . . means vairāgya*-vidyā. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga ( CC Madhya 6.254). Nobody can become a bhakta unless he has disgusted with material life. "I shall do this, I shall do that." And he'll never do bhakti-yoga . That's all. This is not possible. (break) Before leaving my family life I wanted to get my all sons and daughters married, but some of them disagreed, some of them . . . my wife disagreed. "Let them go to hell, I don't care. Time is up. Never mind you are married or not married. Then see your own business." (break) . . . I or you, then who will take care of the marriage of your daughter? Suppose you die immediately? Then who will take care? God will give them . . . *Then why don't you do that now? God will take care. It is called, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, civil suicide. Civil suicide. Just like if you commit suicide, that is criminal. But this is voluntarily committing suicide: "Now I am dead. Whatever you like, you do." So we have to commit civil suicide if we are actually attached to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya . . . (BG 18.66). That is gṛha-dharma . But Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up that." But that attachment is there. I do not think . . . suppose I die immediately. Who will take care of my daughter? At that time we say: "God." And why not now? That feeling of attachment one has to give up gradually. Yes. Therefore we cannot do because the attachment is there. That is the symptom. Saṅkīrtana will help give up the attachment. Yes. Therefore wherever you stay, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will help. Thākā ekhana pāiyā . Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, try for the daughter's marriage. That will help. (break) . . . kabhi mithta nahi. (. . . never gets finished.) Civil suicide is a good thought. That is the thought only. Oh, Doctor saheb. I asked him where you were, and he said that you are on the roof. Jaya . Wo kabh mithta nahi. Samundar jo hai na, uska tufan chalega. Koi sochta hai tufan band ho jaye, tab hum nav chalayenge. Wo sambhav hai nahi. (It never gets over. The waves in the sea will keep on coming. If somebody thinks that he will take out his boat only after the waves subside completely then that's not possible.) Prakriti hai, wo to chalega. (That is part of nature, it will go on.) (break) Hmm? I do not know. (break) You agreed, huh? . . . (indistinct) . . . is coming. I am going within four days. You go, find out what you . . . and then communicate with you. Huh? No, you asked me to stay at least a few days. But you must stay. If you don't stay, you can't stay, I have got no power to keep you tied here. If you will stay, well and good. If you can't even, well, I will try our best to inform you what should be done in four days. Hmm? Let God do whatever He likes. God will be doing through us. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . sir bhi dukhta hai . . . (indistinct) (. . . I get a headache . . . (indistinct) . . .) . . . blood pressure. But whatever you do . . . (laughs) You do not know . . . No, whatever is there is there. Let it remain. They also require some shelter. We want to find out . . . (indistinct) . . . why you are getting swelling or whether weakness of the heart. There are various reasons why did you get the swelling of the leg, you know. We must find out by biochemical examination of the internal fluids, such as the blood, urine and stool, and put you on the right information. Now if you follow or not is your own sweet will, sir. *Nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ , bālasya neha pitarau śaraṇaṁ nṛsiṁha. Na ārtasya ca agadam. Tāvad vibho tanu*-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām (SB 7.9.19). If Kṛṣṇa neglects somebody, then these things will not help. Kṛṣṇa never neglects anybody. You have told once so. It is we, our own actions which we, I mean, forget. We get. If you walk too much then you get tired. If you sit down you do not. If you walk, then there is swelling of the leg, sir. Eh? So it is not Kṛṣṇa. I mean, this is your own saying, eh? I am not manufacturing my own arguments. No, the śāstra says, nārtasya cāga . . . there is no guarantee. But we may try, but there is no guarantee. This is the play of māyā , that we all know. But so long as we are in māyā we have to play our part, haven't we? But it is supposition, the pathologist. No, I am going to bring. That was myself. He'll take blood, he'll take this, he'll take that. So that is another trouble. (chuckles) No, no, but why should you have a minus on blood? Why should you have minus, and whose blood is it? This is your own argument, sir, I am very sorry. No, no . . . Nothing is ours. The body is not ours. When you take blood, there is . . . Not of that . . . No, no, not that, but I feel . . . How you feel? You are a soul! The body feels; you do not feel. Now we are talking about the philosophy. I am not a liberated person. No, but . . . you are liberated soul, we are following you. There are many others, sir, otherwise we would not have come behind you. So, sir, that is not right. And I think I have got a right to prevail upon you. Have I or have I not? Tell me that, or I'll run away back again. (break) . . . it's not full. Who knows? We may be liberated in past birth. That is how I come. That's fine. That's your process. You are trying to do something for the disease. You see, we must know exactly what is happening. After all, science is the same with the Āyurvedic or allopathic or any. Science is, I mean, advancement of man's evolution of the man's understanding about things. I say, but somebody says that . . . what is the medicine? I take some Āyurvedic medicine. No, you do take. We don't say no. You don't take any medicine, we know exactly where you stand, as the modern science explains us. (break) Well, he may not tell us truth immediately, but that is his aim. Hmm. Now I am feeling some dizziness. Sit down. You sit down. Where is that sitting place? Niche jayenge ab hum. (We will go downstairs now.) Go down. (break) Harer nāma eva kevalam , kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21). (break) . . . is a big tank of Calcutta Gas Company. That looks like this. We have got also tank like this in Bombay. We have also gas company tanks. It's in . . . (indistinct) . . . we have bigger tanks here of the petroleum companies. Huge tanks, petroleum tanks. Yes. When I was in Northern Ireland preaching, they blew it up, the gas tank, by bombs. They blew the whole gas tank up. Where? In Northern Ireland, Belfast. Those terrorists. (referring to seat) It was here. Who has taken? It is coming now. Āsana , āsana . (break) The others, others is not. The other seat got taken away, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for cleaning. For making it cleaner. We can get mattresses from your room and a pillow if you'd like to sit down. No, no, this is all right. (break) Only tired feel? (break) . . . or may be due to poverty of heart action, or it may be due to some inaction on the part of the kidney or some collection of some obnoxious substances in the blood. That is why we must have an analysis done, so for a right understanding, we can advise you what to do. Anyone can write analysis, acidity and . . . (indistinct) Now, everything is less. Then you stay here. And you're completely home, without anything. You are not prepared to . . . this is . . . As soon as this building is, I will take. We listen to you, but you don't listen. That is the misfortune of ours. Huh? Actually, I have got so many engagements. Actually, I have got engagement in Bhubaneswar . . . And you are going to Bhubaneswar after fifteen days, no? . . . Calcutta, in Allahabad, then Māyāpur, then Vṛndāvana, then Bombay. So to make you fit to go round, you must do something. It's very logical. "Penny wise, pound foolish." So let pound be wise for the penny foolish. If you do in right path then you may not break down like . . . (indistinct) . . . getting all this trouble. (break) . . . at least for four, five days. We don't want any more. In one days we will find out what to . . . how to . . . this will be cured. I don't mean medicine, but even advice, food, this, that, other things. If you get rid of the medicine, well, all medicines are, I mean, synthetics. They are not produced from animals. Many of them. (break) Harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). (break) . . . that sound all the time. (sounds of birds) Do they have many birds in Bhubaneswar? Are there many birds in Bhubaneswar? Wherever there are nice trees, there will be birds. Girirāja is asking, he thinks there's more birds in Bombay than in Bhubaneswar. Girirāja Prabhu is stating there is more birds in Bombay. There are more crows in Bombay than any other place. (laughter) No, no. They are also birds. There are very more filthier, for the crows, to clean. So Prabhupāda should go, then. No, you see, if the good people is there, up there, you know the filth disappears. That's what the śāstra says. The sun dries up urine in a filthy place. So he must be here. Another argument, and he will answer. Yes, but there is also urine in Bhubaneswar. In Bhubaneswar you are going to have any plan for making a temple? What is my plan, that is always there, that is to print books and construct temples. Throughout the whole world this plan is going on: fifty percent construction, fifty percent printing books. Whatever I get money, I give him. That's all. I am the same beggar, either it comes ten lakhs or fifty lakhs , ten crores . You are exhibiting this body to be "I". Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam akledyo 'śoṣya eva ca (BG 2.24). No, no, that is different. You come down to body consciousness and talk to us. We want you to talk from higher consciousness. I have no higher consciousness. Then talk from the lower consciousness, still lower. Why should I? Let us go out and make a business in the stock market. I am doing business. I am selling books. (laughter) Stock exchange. Why not? It is very easy. I am selling books. Why not a Wall Street operation? It is very easy. They are all engaged in doing business. Have you wanted a businessman to come? I am doing business. Prabhupada ke mafik duniya me koi businessman hai? (Is there any businessman like Prabhupāda in the world?) *Ye to baniya hai. Baniya . . . (He is a businessman. A businessman) is a sweet*-oil tongued fellow. Guest(3): Prabhupāda itna bada businessman hai. World ka sab businessman fail ho gaya. (Prabhupāda is such a big businessman that all businessmen of the world have failed before him.) We can still make a bigger business in Wall Street. Have a Wall Street here in Bombay and . . . (laughs) You are criticizing the bāniyās . The bāniyās criticize the doctor. (laughter) And doctor criticizes you. Bāniyās say, they say, nal jal jocchuri teen niye daktari, (one tap, a little water and cheating, make up a quack doctor.) Nal jal . . .? Jocchuri . Jocchuri means? *Cheating. Suniye na. Teen chiz chahiye unko. Ek nal chahiye aur pani, lal*-nil pani . . . (Just listen. Three things are needed. One tap, red or blue coloured water . . .) Or all cheating words. But according to our śāstra , it is so. No, no, this is according to bāniyā , the doctor is calculated . . . Bāniyā is right in that way. Bāniyā is right. Humara Bangla desh me bolta hai je nal jal jocchuri, teen niye daktari. (In Bengal, they say that three things are needed to become a quack doctor, one tap, little water and cheating words.) In Bengali. In Bengali village there are many quacks. You know that. Everywhere. (laughter) So what their business? Nal jal jocchuri teen niye daktari. (One tap, a little water and cheating make up a quack doctor.) *In Mahābhārata , in Vidura*-nīti , Vidura has mentioned that a doctor should not be trusted and should not be allowed to come in the house. I am reading presently that part of Mahābhārata . Why? Because they must be right from the beginning, in olden times also they must be of the same type. Another place, Vaiṣṇava says, either he is businessman or doctor, anyone, they are all madmen. *Jaise koi admi ko bhoot pakad leta hai. (Just like a person who is haunted by a ghost.) Ghostly*-haunted. And he talks all nonsense. Similarly, anyone who is in the material condition, he is a ghostly haunted man. So he can talk anything, all nonsense. Piśācī pāile yena . . . this is applicable to everyone. Anyone who has got this material body, he's ghostly-haunted. Therefore we are explaining that verse, that first treatment is how to get out of the clutches of this ghost which has attacked everyone. So ghostly haunted man, he's himself a victim of the ghost. How he can treat other men? He's also haunted by the ghost. This is the position. Even one may say: "I am haunted by a better ghost." That may be, but every one of us ghostly haunted. And śāstra says this is treatment: tapasya . Tapo divyaṁ putrakā , yasmād sattvaṁ śuddhyed (SB 5.5.1). Sattva. Sattva, our existence, is polluted. The first business . . . (break) . . . the skin and bone. The skin and bone will continue so long I am in the material condition of life, either bird's skin . . . just like who was talking of evolution? Who was? (indistinct answer by devotees) Yes. This disease of skin and bone will continue. Because the spirit soul is not the bone and skin. The Darwin's theory, he is putting that the bone is changing. The bone is not changing. You get different bones in different life. I am changing my position. I am going from one apartment to another apartment. The apartment not changing; I am changing apartment. That is the difference between Darwin's theory and our theory. They are thinking the apartment is becoming another apartment. No. The apartments are already there. I am entering different apartments as I can pay for it. That is karma . According to my karma , I am sometimes residing in one apartment, in another apartment. This is going on. The Darwin's theory, the apartment is changing. That's not the fact. Fact is I am living entity. Tathā dehān . . . Kṛṣṇa also says, tathā dehāntara . Apartment antara . The spirit soul is the same. There is no change. That is spirit always, but according to his karma , he is going from this apartment, or this body, tathā dehān . . . that is the main point with the modern science and our Vedic knowledge. That is the main difference. They have no idea of the existence of the soul, and therefore say: "We are trying to make. We are trying to make." This rascaldom is going on. You cannot make soul. That is not possible. You cannot do anything. You cannot make even the body, what to speak of the soul. This is . . . Modern scientists don't say that we can make the soul. Soul is permanent in every man. No, the rascals say: "We can create." So that rascal, number of that rascal is more. They are saying, bluffing that, "Now we shall create chemicals. We are trying." This is going on. Just this morning he was saying. It is the theory of these people, I think, that . . . Communists. Communists. That means rascalism. Not a single soul has been created till now and these rascals are claiming that they are going . . . and they are scientists. We have to accept them as scientists. Just see. This is . . . not only now. One gentleman, one big doctor, chemist, he has got Nobel Prize, he came to California, and our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, he was in the also in the university, he's also doctor and chemist. So he was speaking on the chemical evolution. So he's my student, he challenged him that, "If I give you chemicals, can you prepare life?" "That I cannot say." Even a living cell of life . . . No, it was meeting. When Svarūpa Dāmodara challenged him that, "Suppose I give you the chemicals, right chemicals. Can you prepare a life?" Then he said: "That I cannot say." Why? Why do you say nonsense? Because their definition of life is very meager. They say that life is a chemical imbalance, a state of chemical imbalance. That is wrong. Life is something higher than . . . Therefore these chemists—they are predominating—so how it is possible to take their version? (greets someone) Aiye. Baithiye. (Please come. Take your seat.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (break) . . . a simple version of Vaiṣṇava: Jaya . Wherefrom you are coming? From London. Oh. You are Englishman? Yes. English. Stay here. We want some Englishmen. (laughter) No. We want Englishmen, Australian, Canadian, because they have no visa problem. American will have no visa problem very soon. Why? There is no question why. We'll understand it. No, no, that's all right. So the visa problem is a great problem for us, because in India for conducting our movement, we have to import the white men. Our Indians, they are not joining. So that is a great problem for me. They have to come, and they have to go again. And each time coming and going, ten thousand rupees. And that is happening at least one hundred cases every year. Ten thousand, hundred times, just imagine. This is my economic problem. Therefore I'm asking, "If you are Englishman, please stay." Because here, in India, they will see that, "The white man dancing, let us see." They will never join. They are busy with their own affairs. They will advise, "Do this, do that," but they will never come. This is my position. Practical. Therefore I'm begging the Englishmen, the Canadians, the Australians, "Please come and stay." Because huge establishment, who will manage? I am managing with them, but there is economic question. For each person I have to spend ten thousand rupees at least, and such hundred case . . . One million. This is the position. The Indians are not interested. They are not interested. You are firing everyone, so they run away. (laughter) What can be done? This is real position. Only I am a fool, not running away. (laughter) He says, Prabhupāda, "You rascals . . ." Everyone may be a fool, but if he continues to remain a fool, that is very bad. (laughter) A fool is a fool always. He cannot change his habits . . . *More or less every one of us, we are fool, mūḍha . Kṛṣṇa has stated mūḍha , mūḍha . Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). He has chastised like anything. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān (BG 16.19). So anyone who's not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is within these categories: duṣkṛtina , narādhama , mūḍha, māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna , āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ . This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is Indian movement, but na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ . They are not taking seriously. That is the position. It is our movement. Kṛṣṇa came in India, and because India is so glorified place, puṇya-bhūmi, even the demigods, they desire. Not India; *this planet, Bhārata*-varṣa. Formerly, the whole Bhārata-varṣa means whole planet. Anyway, for the time it is now minimized. So it is not ordinary land. So our men, they are not interested in such great movement. How much regrettable it is. And who are they? Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). If you speak the truth, then you take the quotation of Kṛṣṇa. Now every Indian should take part in this great movement. Every Indian. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. *It is para*-upakāra . India's business is para-upakāra . India's business is not exploitation. That is Indian. And para-upakāra means not that daridra-nārāyaṇa bhojana . No. Para-upakāra means to give him knowledge, for want of which he is suffering. That is real . . . *This is his real suffering. He's part and parcel of God. Qualitatively, he's as good as God, but he's suffering. Why he's suffering? Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). He has come to this material world, prakṛti , and . . . or mental concoction, he's creating his plan and struggling for existence. This is real suffering. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save him from real suffering. That Indians should take very seriously and join this movement. And para-upakāra , people need it all over the world. Otherwise, why these young boys, they have joined me? They are finding something relief by this movement. Otherwise, what business he has got to join with an Indian, poor Indian? I went to their country with forty rupees, that's all. So they are finding something relief. And actually it is relief. So our Indians are not interested. India is supposed to be the . . . what is called? Benefactor, or . . .? *Deva*-bhūmi , deva-bhūmi . Yes. But this knowledge is here. Huh? So they came, and we are there in the knowledge already. Apan mandir me jayenge? (Are we going to the temple?) Time ho gaya kya? (Is it time to go?) You can sit down here? No? I feel this is important. *All right. So, sab bharata*-varshi, young men, jitne hai, sabhi movement ko lijiye seriously. (So all young Indians should take this movement seriously.) It is not ordinary movement. Ye cheating movement nahi hai. (This is not a cheating movement.) This is real movement. Kṛṣṇa, what Kṛṣṇa is speaking, what Caitanya Mahāprabhu is speaking, that is not cheating. That is real solution of the problem. So we have taken the business of Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So every intelligent person, intelligent young man . . . now we have got . . . we have got everywhere, but especially now in Bombay—it is important city—we have constructed this. We can keep at least five hundred, six hundred men in these buildings. But who is coming? Nobody's coming. If they all come, then it will be difficult for you. *Then let them come first of all. (laughter) There is no "if." There is sufficient place. Come. But nobody's coming. They want to see, "Let these white men come and we see." That's all. "We see the fun." This is going on. They are coming. They are disgusted, but we are not disgusted. That is the difficulty. Therefore I was speaking to this boy, "You are Englishman. You have come." It's a problem now in Māyāpur, here. And the government is after them as soon as three months pass, "Get out, get out, get out, get out." Then how shall I conduct my business, a big, big establishment? This is another problem. But Kṛṣṇa is doing His own business. But practically seeing. This is India's business. Bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). Manuṣya-janma , not the cats and dogs, but those who have taken the human form. It is their business. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra , janma sārthaka . . . first of all, make your life successful by understanding the philosophy. Then, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra , preach this philosophy all over the world. That is para-upakāra . So actually that is being done. They understand; they are understanding this philosophy. There is struggle now in foreign countries. There is opposition now. Hmm? Who will explain what is the opposition? Today we just got a new package from New York from this boy. And some of the parents were charging that we were kidnapping and mentally imprisoning their children by making them devotees. Because from their point of view their children were lost to our movement. So . . . He's a lost child. His father and mother came to me, and mother was crying. I said: "So take your son." And the son will not go. (laughter) You are washing away their brains. (laughing) So they are charging like that. What is the new charge? Huh? Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are saying "mind control." (laughing) "Mind control." Yes. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, so many . . . all the big scholars in America, all the big famous scholars, they have put together one petition saying how authorized our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement are. And they are willing to come forward now. If any time they want some papers in the courtroom to show how bona fide our movement is, how we are actually not brainwashers and mind*-controlled, there are these scholars in America, they have pledged their support. There was a meeting of four big scholars at Harvard University—it's like the Oxford of America. And one famous theologian named Cox . . . Harvey Cox? Yes, and Kīrtanānanda Swami. His books are very famous. And they have brought up this issue of freedom of religion, that this is a bona fide religious movement and we should have freedom to worship. Then there's also a letter from a member of the World Fellowship of Religion, and he is also saying that he takes this very seriously and very grave, that such a bona fide movement is not being allowed to practice their religion freely. And then there's one, I think, Professor Sharma at one American University, and he is . . . Sharma or Sukla? *No, another one. Not Sukla. And this Sharma is saying that he has personal experience that this is a bona fide movement, and that the American public in general may not know, but A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is one of the renowned writers of translations of Vedic translations and commentaries of Vedic literature. (break) And then Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja is going with . . . a Swami? Chandra Swami, some Indian svāmī in America. But he's going with Ādi-keśava Mahārāja to meet the new President of the United States on January 27th. He's going to see? *Yes, Jimmy Carter. On January 20th he will become the next President. So Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja and this one Indian sannyāsī , they are going to make a representation to the new President. Who is that Indian svāmī ? His name is Chandra Swami. Chandra Swami? So why . . .? He's a young man. He must be Māyāvādī. I'm sure he is. He's taking advantage of this. He's a Māyāvādī. He's a man who is following tantric . So what is this nonsense? This should not be . . . he should not accompany. He's taking advantage of it. He's also directly associated with the Prime Minister, this young man, Chandra Swami. The Prime Minister is the greatest Māyāvādī. *Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna (BG 7.15). Māyāvādī means māyā has taken his knowledge. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . Ninety-nine percent they are Māyāvādīs. Swāmījī, what about those missionaries who are working in India who are coming from abroad, and they are actually exploiting? If they put a charge against our institution, well, we can definitely say that we are motivating the intellect to take into the higher stage of life. Here the missionaries who come, they go in the backward areas, and those who are not learned, those who are practically uneducated . . . I mean, their mission is to convert them in Christianity. You see, that charge is rather more grave than the particular one which they have leveled against us. You see, we can put that argument, isn't it? How many Hindus are converted into Christianity? We are not converting them, we are just . . . *Our case is not that we are going to convert one Hindu to Christian, or Christian to Hindu. There is no meaning. Our is, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Even if you are Hindu, even you are Muslim, you are Christian, kick it out. That is our movement. We do not advocate that "You are Christian; you become Hindu." Or "You are Hindu; you become . . ." They are taking like that. But our movement is not that. That's what I say. *Our movement is, either you are Hindu, either you are Muslim, either you are Christian, you kick out all this. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya . Simply you become surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, or God. This is our . . . and anyone who can do that, he is first-class religious. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Adhokṣaja. God's name is Adhokṣaja. You cannot see Him beyond your material perception. So if you are trained up to surrender to God, then you are religious. We do not say that you become Hindu or Muslim or Christian or this or that. We do not say so. But all Christians, if they truly are . . . I mean Hindus, that Christ . . . No, either he become Hindus, that does not mean the Hindus are perfect. We do not mean that. Even if he becomes Hindu, what is the benefit? No benefit. No. Even he becomes a Christian, there is no benefit. *I say any religious stamp, material, there is no benefit. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). You have to give up all these designations. And bhakti , love of Godhead, or service to God, begins when you are relieved from these designations. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When becoming God conscious you become completely purified, then your devotional life begins. And so long you are entangled with this designation, there is no question of devotional service. Either you Hindu or Muslim or Christian, it doesn't matter. So our business is not that, that we convert a Hindu to a Christian or a Christian to a Hindu. That is not our business. They are thinking, because we dress like that, with tilaka , with māla , they think "Hindu." But it's not our business to convert the Christians to become Hindus, as all other missionaries, they are doing. They are trying to increasing the number of Christian or Hindus. So our . . . there is no question of increasing. It is very difficult to accept. *Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy. Out of millions and millions of persons, one becomes perfect. And out of millions of perfect, one may understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the version of Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy that everyone, each one will become Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. But by the grace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , this is helping. Otherwise, it is very difficult task. Very difficult. It is recommended in the śāstra , kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply the Kali-yuga, kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ (SB 12.3.51). This is the version of Śukadeva Gosvāmī. He described the faulty ocean of this Kali-yuga, and at last he encouraged that "Mahārāja, there is one opportunity in this age." Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ , very great opportunity. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya : simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet , he becomes liberated and he goes back to home. This opportunity we are preaching. That's all. Otherwise, to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. This opportunity, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya . And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also recommends, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalaṁ kalau nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21). Otherwise, in this age, very difficult. (break) *During the Kumbha*-melā we are having our anna-kṣetra to serve the direct sādhus. We already started our camp on 21st December to last after 10th of February. If Mahārāja and all other devotees, they can definitely offer free arrangements over there because we have got the best camp. We have got the best camp. So why should we spend for our camp? (laughter) We are just on the bed of the river, far away from the melā , which is about three, four . . . we have our āśramas at various places, you know. What is this philosophy? What is? What is the philosophy? Philosophy is bhajana , Ādi Śaṅkarācārya. But whether you recognize Kṛṣṇa . . . Yes, sir, he was our guru . We have published a book from the Calcutta University, so just take your remise. Leave the book for you. Oh, this is for me? Baithiye, baithiye. Thoda Vedānta philosophy par charcha kijiye. (Please sit, please sit. Let us have a small discussion on Vedānta philosophy.) Let us discuss. What is Vedānta philosophy? Let us discuss something. You belong to this camp, so what is Vedānta ? Ādi Śaṅkarācārya's preaching, actually defining God as what he thought. Then what is the meaning? Everyone can think of God according to his whims. You say: "As he thought." That is not standard. So, what he describes . . . No, first of all, let us . . . whether if you think of God in your own way, is that valid or not? Because he has given a thought to it, you know. He has thought about it. *Anything might be the first*-class thought, but do you think that any man can think of God and create God? Do you think it is all right? Well, we are guided by those who have given a thought to it and who have meditated actually. You said that, "As he thought." Yes. So God is unlimited and you are limited. So how you can think of God? You see, I'll just quote one of his stanzas which reveal . . . I am talking . . . I understand your point of view, but I'm just, to Your Holiness, in the last stanza of his advaita philosophy, he says, ahaṁ nirvikalpo nirākāra rūpa vibhur apya sarvatra sarvendriyāṇi sadame sama . . . Who says " aham "? Śaṅkarācārya. That means a person is thinking of God. So that is my point, whether an individual person can think of God and ascertain that "Here is God." He comes to that particular conclusion, though, Your Holiness, he comes . . . he says that ahaṁ nirvikalpa nirākāra rūpa . . . So nirākāra . . . if you are speaking, then how he can become nirākāra ? He actually defines what prevails in the universe, what is that element which governs us. Let us just discuss from the point. As you say that, "I think" and "I speak," so when you speak, when you think, whether you are nirākāra or ākāra. He defines, ultimately, after all thinking . . . I am asking you. He has come to that conclusion. I'm asking you that when you think, when you . . . what is that other thing? Speak. So can anybody who is nirākāra , he can think and speak? Is there any experience? So what is the use of talking like that? Thinking is done by the mind, and mind is not soul. Yes. So, no, whatever it may be. If I think, if I speak, I am ākāra ; I'm not nirākāra . And that is for everyone. This is contra . . . What is that "everyone"? What it may be. First come to the platform of understanding. As soon as I think, I speak, this speaking, I'm thinking, is not coming from nirākāra. But what is that "I"? "I" means . . . what do you mean by "I"? I am person, you are person. When I say "I say," you say that we are person. So how you can say nirākāra ? It must be common knowledge. When I say "I speak," that is not nirākāra . How it can be nirākāra ? It is contradictory. It is not contradictory, but . . . Yes, it is contradictory. Unless you have got a personality, you cannot speak, you cannot think. So how it is nirākāra ? That is my first point. Kṛṣṇa says " aham ." He is person. We worship Kṛṣṇa as person. He says, aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). That " aham ," He's person. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa as person because He says, aham ādir hi devānām . *He's person. Kṛṣṇa never said that, "I am nirākāra ." Where He has said? Can you quote any verse? When He says nirākāra , He says like this: mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam (BG 9.4). Mayā , "by Me." Tatam idaṁ sarvam , "everywhere, by My energy." Just like the sun-god. The sun-god is within the sun globe. His bodily luster is coming. The sun*-god can say: "The sunshine is my bodily exposition." That is reasonable. Just like a big light, it has got exposition. Similarly . . . and that is confirmed in the śāstra : yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (BS 5.40). Yasya , the person. *So when Kṛṣṇa said, mayā tatam idam , mayā means, "I am there." But "I" is existing. That "I", person, is existing. Just like if I say that "It is I who has expanded. I am expanded all over the world by this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement," that's a fact. But that does not mean I am not a person. If I say that, "I am . . . this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means I am, I am spread by spreading this movement," that's a fact. But does it mean that I am imperson? That is, Kṛṣṇa says: mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta*-mūrtinā. Avyakta . So the same example we can give that in all my branches, 110 branches, they worship me as their guru. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4): "Everything is existing on My management." Nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ : "But I am not there." It is a fact. All these 110 branches, they are going on under my direction, but not that I am present everywhere. But that does not mean I am not a person. So the supreme, the supreme manager, the supreme controller, how He can be nirākāra ? That is my first question. He means to say, sir, that the māyākāra is not there. But the divyākāra is there, as we say. Let us understand him. No, He . . . nirākāra is there. So far His management power is going on, that is nirākāra . But that nirākāra does not mean that I am also nirākāra . That is the defect. The Supreme Person, it is confirmed by the śāstra . The Absolute Truth is person ultimately. *So those who are simply captivated by the Brahman, nirākāra , they are in the . . . just in the beginning of knowledge. Their knowledge is not perfect. That is not Vedānta . That is knowledge, but it is not anta. And Vedānta means the ultimate knowledge. And that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). If one does not know Kṛṣṇa, he's not a Vedāntist. That is my point. He does not know what is Vedānta . The veda-anta means Kṛṣṇa. Anta means the last word. The last word is brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate . Bhagavān. Unless one goes to the Supreme Lord Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, he's not a Vedāntist. That is my point. Veda means knowledge. Sir, Śaṅkarācārya also said, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindam . . . That's all right. One who says . . . we are studying from our common sense. Veda means knowledge, and anta means the last. And Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). So unless you know Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of Vedānta . There may be Veda . . . Knowledge. *Hah, knowledge. But that is not the ultimate knowledge. The ultimate knowledge will come when you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā : bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Therefore all these so-called Vedāntists, they will have to wait for many millions of years to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the position. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante . And if he's actually in knowledge, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate . That is the sign. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is wanted. So Vedāntist, so-called Vedāntist, we do not approve them because they have not come to the ultimate point of knowledge. This is clear. Veda means knowledge; *anta , anta means the last point. So unless you come to that last point of knowledge, that is not Vedānta . That may be Veda, but it is not Vedānta . Vedānta means māṁ prapadyate . Now, whether you approve these statements? Vedānta means to know Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedānta*-kṛd vedānta-vid ca aham . "I am the main meaning of the *Vedas* ." Yes, He is the . . . so He can speak what is Vedānta . And unless one accepts this Vedānta , he's not a Vedāntist. Therefore some of our Vaiṣṇava friends, they have given me this title, Bhaktivedanta. In 1947, something, they, purposefully, they gave me the title that Vedānta means bhakti . "So you take this title, 'Bhaktivedanta.' " And we are preaching this Vedānta , that the ultimate platform of Veda , knowledge, is to understand Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). So He's person; *He's speaking. So not that . . . the Māyāvādīs, they take that paratattva is the nirākāra*-brahman . But that is not paratattva . Here the person says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya . So if you have to accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme authority, then Vedānta means, He says also, to know Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, it is not anta. It may be middle, it may be beginning, but not anta . Sir, Śaṅkarācārya has made so many obstructs for this bhakti . And I mean to follow it . . . No, no, I'm talking of Kṛṣṇa. There are many other talkers. We are concerned because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. That's all. That is our philosophy. We may be fools and rascals, doesn't matter. But we accept what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all. Like a child, he's a child, he may be a fool. But when the father says: "My dear child, this is called microphone," and if the child says: "This is microphone," that is correct, because he takes the word of the father, who knows things. He may be child. So our business is like that. We don't claim ourself to be very learned, very advanced. We are fools and rascals. (break) *"How can I become guru ?" one may say: "I am not so learned, I am not so . . ." "No, no, you haven't got to bother. Still you can become guru ." "How?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "If you simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said, then you become guru ." That's all. So our business is that. We are guru not that because we are very learned, so-called Vedāntist. No. We are lowest of the lowest. But we are faithful to the words of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We have no other business. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has ordered, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bās . Very easy. And that is being effective. Now because I am carrying these words of Kṛṣṇa throughout the whole world, perhaps I have done the best service than the combined so much Vedāntists. All the Vedāntists of India could not do that. That's a fact. How it has become possible? Because we are simply speaking what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. That's all. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa . . . that's all. I do not claim that I am Sanskrit scholar, I am this big man, that man. No. Whatever books I have written, only about this—Kṛṣṇa. *In our book in every page you will find Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa. My Guru Mahārāja, if we used to write some article, so we wanted to show him how it is written. So he was very busy. So somebody would read, and Guru Mahārāja would say: "How many times he has said 'Kṛṣṇa'?" (laughter) If he finds that in every page there is "Kṛṣṇa," it is all right. That's all. (laughter) So we are making Vedāntist, "How many times he chants Kṛṣṇa?" If he chants always Kṛṣṇa, yes, he's Vedāntist. That's all. Bās . Because śāstra says, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). That is being effective. These boys, their forefathers or their father, grandfather, never knew what is Kṛṣṇa. But kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet . That is actually fact. So unless there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no question of Vedānta . That is my point. Ācchā . Jayenge . . . udhar nahi jana. (We shall go . . . but not there.) Zyada nahi bolne ka. (We should not say too much.) Nahi, Krishna naam to bolna hi hai. (No, we have to glorify Kṛṣṇa's holy name.) Krishna bolo magar gussa mat karo. (Take Kṛṣṇa's name but don't get angry.) Kirtaniyah sada harih. Krishna ka naam sab samay bolo. Ta aap log hum log ko thoda sahay kjiye Krishna naam prachar karne ke liye. ( Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ . Kṛṣṇa's name should be taken continuously. So all of you can kindly help me in spreading the holy name of Kṛṣṇa.) That is real Vedānta . And the Vedānta says also . . . if you actually read Vedānta , what is the beginning of Vedānta ? Boliye? (Tell me?) What is the beginning? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). This is not Vedānta . This is *Īśopaniṣad*. Janmādy asya yataḥ . *Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This is Vedānta . Yes. That is Vedānta , Brahma*-sūtra . This is Vedānta . So this life is meant for Vedānta . Athāto brahma jijñāsā . And what is Brahman? Janmādy asya yataḥ . Brahman means the Supreme Soul of everything. And Kṛṣṇa replies, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Then Vedānta starts. I'm inquiring what is the ultimate source of everything, and here is the answer. If you don't believe, that is another thing. You go on talking like anything. That is another thing. But answer is there. Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So we have to go to such mahātmā who knows vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti . Then it will be all right. But if we want to waste time, that is another thing. *So I am very glad to see you. So I wish that you may spread real Vedānta . That is essence of Vedas . Vedānta means essence of Vedas . Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Light is . . . of course there is light in the sunshine and there is light in the sun globe, but the source of light is coming from the sun*-god. Just like electric bulb, thousand power. So the illumination is also light, and the source of illumination, the bulb, that is also light. And what is that? Filament within? That is also light. But what is the anta light? Not this illumination. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the original source of light. Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (BS 5.40). It is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā . So Brahman knowledge is partial Kṛṣṇa knowledge. Paramātmā knowledge, partial Kṛṣṇa knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa knowledge is perfect. So partial knowledge is also knowledge, but Vedānta means full knowledge. So unless you come to that point, it is not Vedānta . The another example is just like from a distant place you see one mountain. You'll see just like something cloud. It is not cloud; *it is the mountain. But because you are seeing from a distant place you see it is something cloud. If you go little further, you'll see something green, and when you actually go to the mountain you'll find so many trees, so many living entities, so many everything full of varieties. The same mountain, absolute knowledge, advaya*-jñāna , tattva-jñāna . If we accept tattva-jñāna from distant place it is Brahman. If you see that tattva-jñāna still nearer, then it is Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61). And when you go directly to the person, just like we are talking face to . . . that is possibility. And that possibility Kṛṣṇa comes to show us. That is indicated by Śukadeva Gosvāmī that: *When Kṛṣṇa was playing with His cowherd boys friend, so Śukadeva Gosvāmī says: "Who are these boys who are playing with Kṛṣṇa, who is the source of brahma*-sukha ?" Brahma-sukhānubhūtyā . These boys are playing with another boy known as Kṛṣṇa. He is the source of brahma-sukhānubhūti . And dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena : those who are devotees, for them He is the Supreme Lord. And māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa : and those who are under the influence of māyā , they are seeing He's an ordinary boy. But whatever He may be, these boys who are playing with Him, sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ (SB 10.12.11). After many, many lives' acquisition of pious activities, now he has got this opportunity to play with this boy, the source of brahma-sukha . Itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā . They are not playing with ordinary child. He is the source of brahma-sukha . This is the statement of Śukadeva Gosvāmī. *So if we come to Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is personally presenting Himself, that is Vedānta . Otherwise, bahūnāṁ janmanām . . . we have come to that point, but if we neglect, then it will take many, many births to come to that point. Because that is the ultimate. Unless we come to that point, to understand Kṛṣṇa, there is still scarcity of knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa says that, "When there is scarcity of knowledge, then I appear." Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). When the scarcity of knowledge is polluted . . . not only scarcity, but it is polluted, glāniḥ . Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glāniḥ . This is dharma , to come to the perfect knowledge. Human being must come to the perfect knowledge, because this is a boon. Not the cats and dogs can understand. Human being. So when there is glāniḥ , they are accepting the preliminary beginning of knowledge as the perfect knowledge, that is glāniḥ . Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca . . . (BG 4.8). These things are there. Dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya : to establish real religious system. Sambhavāmi yuge yuge . What is that real religious system? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). *Bhāgavata*-dharma . *No, this is real dharma . Bhāgavata*-dharma is real, Bhagavān. Bhāgavata-dharma means in a relationship with Bhagavān. So if you do not know Bhagavān, then what is this knowledge? That is the defect. All dharmas —there may be Christian dharma , Hindu dharma , this dharma , that dharma —ask any one of them, "Do you know Bhagavān?" "Zero. Nirākāra ." Nirākāra means zero. When you come to the right point: zero. No substance. Therefore they have got this prayer, nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe . This is going on. Śūnyavādi and nirviśeṣa , nirākāravādi . We say . . . there are so many points. We say that, "The supreme father," the Christians say. So how the supreme father can be nirākāra ? We have got experience, my father has ākāra . His father has got ākāra , his father has got ākāra . So if you go to the supreme father, now how He is nirākāra ? I may not have seen my great-grandfather but that does not mean he's nirākāra . So I may not have seen God but if God is supreme father, how He can be nirākāra ? Boliye apka isme koi bolne ka ho to boliye? (So, do you have anything to say on this?) Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, he's a person. His father must be person. Yes. This is common sense. If son of God, if the son has form, how the father hasn't got form? What do you say? I'm asking you, this English boy. How the father can be formless? Christ says that he's the son of God. Is it not? English devotee: He said he was, yes. Yes. But he's a person. So how the father is imperson? What kind of father? Sir, instead of calling person, we say he's an individual. Person means this body. Person means individual. Individual. So God is an individual then? No, person. God is a person. Individual means person, individual person. They may think person means body. *Body or no body, that is separate thing. But when you say "individual," He is a person. And it is explained also in the Bhagavad . . . kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta*-cetasām (BG 12.5). Those who are inclined to the impersonal feature . . . God has got that impersonal feature. So they have to undergo more troubles to understand Him. And after going through troublesome business, bahūnāṁ janmanām , many, many births, then he understands, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam . . . here is the person." Everywhere this disease is very prominent, that God is impersonal. Perhaps this is the only movement in the world that's preaching, "No, God is person." All Vaiṣṇavas believe in the personal God. This is only one . . . (indistinct) . . . preach. Yes. Bring some prasāda . Distribute. (break) . . . camp. Let your group come and stay in our camp. No, no, we have already organized. We have also a organized camp. No, I would have saved this expenditure by joining your camp, but . . . *There is no question of expenditure. We welcome you and your institution over there. We have an arrangement for about two hundred tents, and we have got enough food to offer you, quality food, which you won't find in the whole of the Kumbha*-melā. Because originally . . . But suppose if we speak in this way, then you'll not agree. (laughter) Real food is finished. Only purīs , kachorīs . . . (laughter) We'll have more real food when you come over there. No, if you do not object our preaching like that, then I can go. Yes, definitely. Whether your Swāmījī will like that? No, of course. Because actually there is nothing against your preaching. Otherwise, I would not have come. No, this is a contradictory. We say God is person, and you say nirākāra . That is the difference. Why God should be nirākāra ? Ultimately, it is the . . . *Ultimately, you say nirākāra . We say ultimately ākāra . And that is the difference, gulf of difference. That is going on. We shall worship Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa there, with our ārati , just like we are doing in the temple. Perhaps your Swāmījī will not like this. And as soon as there is some contradiction . . . *No. Our main theme at the Kumbha*-melā is to speak direct to sādhus who come from Himalayas, because mainly since 150 years this institution is serving them at Hardwar and Prayaga. They don't walk down to Ujjain or Nasik. Mainly they come at Hardwar and Allahabad. So if you kindly give us a camp. But we shall preach this. You are at liberty. There is no ban on it. Actually, you see we, as we said, we are serving the humanity directly. That's all right. That all right. Nice. But sometimes, if somebody differs, that is not very palatable. No, no, Swāmījī. There is no . . . we welcome you there. I told Mangala when she came that we are not preaching a particular thing. We are going there to serve the people who come who are intellectual. For spiritual enlightenment. That's nice. Yes. And practically since many, many years our camp is considered as one of the best from all point of view—hygienic arrangements, food quality. We don't use dalda or anything. We have the pure ghee. There are people who give with heart. Suppose if you give us one camp, so how many men we can provide there? At least 50 to 100 people we can accommodate. No. Or if you want more . . . No, no. Our men will not be fifty to so much. Suppose for us, if you spare one camp, so how many men we can accommodate there? Because . . . In one tent at least we can accommodate six people. Easily. With a drawing room and two bedrooms. We have the military tents. And just on the bed of the river. So how many men you are expecting? Fourteen. Fourteen. (break) . . . you can serve how many people? Each tent we'll accommodate with all sanitary conditions. We have in one tent, which is quite a big one, six people easily. With a drawing and two beds. So at least three camps we shall require. Three or five. Whatever. Swāmījī, number is immaterial. Ācchā . So why don't you do that? One for yourself and three to us. So four. I can even reserve for your institution six, eight, ten. Number is immaterial. Then why don't you take? That is very good. Five reserve karo. Apan . . . (Reserve five tents for us . . .) *Number is immaterial. We have the special boats plying from our camp, because what our principle is, our Gurudev, Paramahamsa devji had taught us . . . away from the melā , in seclusion. Now there is a bhāga , what is known as a yushi*-bhāga , and since last two hundred years all the director sādhus , they reside there because it is away from . . . *Munshi*-bhāga that is . . . Yushi. Yushi. So as it is away from melā , there is no hustle and bustle of the melā . It's a secluded place. And from there we ply our own boats. We have about six, eight boats that take you for snāna . In the early morning at four o'clock we have the snāna in the Ganges itself near our camp, because . . . Confluence, confluence. *On the spot. We are in the bed of the river, and this plot is reserved since last two hundred years for us from the government when the melā comes— Pūrṇa*-kumbha , Ardha-kumbha . And the boats ply from our spot downstream at Prayaga on the saṅgam . That we take them during the day according to the nakṣatra . These gentlemen offering, why not take advantage? If it's away from the melā there won't be so much preaching there. People will come to you when they know that you are there. There is no need to go. (laughter) You can still have a small place in melā itself. That publicity will go like this. Don't worry about it. When the sun shines nobody says that the sun has risen. It has risen. Vedāntists say, but no one else . . . No, no, that's all right. So you take advantage of it. (everyone talking at once) Now is offering, you should . . . so immediately arrange for this. So Thik hai. Hum log ko dijiye kuch camp. (Okay. So please give us a few tents.) I'll telephone today and we'll make the arrangement at least for five to six, seven tents. *Thank you very much. Then it will be very nice. We are willing to go there. And we must go there. It is Kumbha*-melā. So if you give us five to six camps it will be very nice. Even up to ten. You don't hesitate for the number. Thank you. He's so liberal. You are actually Brahman. (laughter) Brahman means unlimited. Virāṭ. Virāṭ. Bṛhatyad , bṛnghanatya iti brahman . Not only the largest, but increasing. That is Brahman. Bṛhatya bṛnghanatya . I'm very much thankful to you. So you arrange immediately. To phir iske liye jo kuch karna hai bol dijiye. (Please inform us about any formalities involved.) I will send a message today, and you will let me know the date. They will come and receive you either at the Benares airport or here at Allahabad station. Because it's not far away from Allahabad. Yes, I know. I was in Allahabad for thirteen years. I know. *Yes. This Kumbha*-melā we have every year. First of all, you see, we have taken just near Yamunā bridge. As soon as the pilgrims come from various parts of the country we have got a . . . Yamunā bridge, there are two bridges. Just near Yamunā bridge there is an institution which belongs to Bombay, and that institution is reserved for us just to give a shelter first to people who come by rail. So take all these notes. We'll save so much money. Transit camp. So immediately. I'll come again, don't worry. Thank you very much. Now, distribute prasāda . Actually, you know, Swāmījī, I had stayed over here whenever he used to come. He passed away in 1960. Who? Our Swāmījī. He passed away at . . . (indistinct) . . . in 1960, 14th February. And he was very fond of Juhu since 1923, whenever he was coming to Bombay. Juhu is very nice, I know. But now the Juhu has lost its charm. I'm talking about 1923 up to '45. And he used to go deep in the sea up to two miles. He used to take us with him. That, one saintly person . . . what is his name? He was a Punjabi body. And mostly he resided in Gujarat. Developed five of his institutions. One in Ooty and two on Narmada and Tapti, and one is near Deoghar in Bihar. Bihar. Deoghar. Yes. One we have got in Hardwar itself. We have got a nice āśrama at Sapta Sarovara. I'll just show you one of his . . . because Juhu, whenever he was in Bombay he was at Juhu always. (indistinct comments by others) (break) He was residing at M. C. Satwar, you know, our Attorney General. He's Sindhi? Punjabi. He lived for 130 years. He's still living? No, he died only five years back. 1960. This must be one of . . . there was a crowd, you know, at M. C. Satwar's hall. M. C. Satwar had invited everybody from the high court, all the judges. So he was just having a chant with them. So "Swāmījī, we would like to hear you, something." He said: "I am an uneducated man. What can I say?" This was in 1956, just four years before he passed away. Then he was thinking what to tell these guys. Was just thinking for five, ten minutes. And then he spoke for two hours, spellbound. Beautiful. He was about 6 foot 4 inches in height. Real Punjabi. (laughter) And the color of his skin was as pink as the petal of the rose. He was a dynamic personality also. And the command over the language was superb. Just Your Holiness is quoting the Sanskrit quotations, just like Swami Gangeshvarananda, though he's a blind man. But you . . . he can quote from any chapter, any stanza, any couplet. He's also here at present. He's coming over there. No, he's my good friend. Yes. We had a word about you with him long back. Before, Swāmījī, Your Holiness came to India. He likes me. (laughter) Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) *She is my daughter*-in-law. Ācchā . He's your son? He's my son. He has just come day before from London to . . . You live in London? No, he's studying. He's an executive with the German company over there via India, this German firm. And she is my daughter. And since . . . Khub sukhi raho. Krishna naam karo. (Everyone be happy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Everyone be happy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our . . . a good family. (break) *So his friend is my friend. (everyone talking at once) Swāmījī says, he gave a good comparison about the bulbs. Some bulbs have forty candles, some have twenty*-five, some a thousand. Yes, yes. Jaya . So where is our Guru Mahārāja? Guru dāsa Swami? He went away? So I'll see them again. All right, thank you. (break) We'll arrange for the best that we could. That's nice. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (break) Ap kidhar ke rehne wale ho? Oh apni bangali. (Where do you live? Oh you are a Bengali.) Na bangali noi, Bengal e chilo. Oi khane ghar. Ekhon ektu . . . (indistinct) . . . jani na ki, ektu treatment nite eshechi ekhane, Ahmedabad e. (No, I am not a Bengali but I used to live in Bengal in my own house. Now I have come to Ahmedabad for some treatment.) Bangla besh bhalo bolen. (You can speak Bengali very nicely.) Speaks Bengali very nice. Yes, he lived in Shanti Niketan four years . . . (indistinct) So give him shelter. (end) Conversation A -- December 26, 1976, Bombay I have just come from America, and at the universities, lots of times there are many questions concerning evolution, and I was curious about what our position is in terms of artifacts—bones like dinosaur bones and things like that that the scientists say they found. Scientists are rascals, those who are following Darwin. What is their theory? *They maintain that from the oceans came one*-celled animals. Then from these one-celled animals, they developed into fish and then reptiles. And then these reptiles became very big dinosaurs. And they have put together many big museums. For instance, in Washington the Smithsonian Museum has many, many big bones put together, and they date these millions of years ago. *So we have got also the same theory. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāna). (break) . . . within water. So where is the difference? We also admit the forms of life begins from the ocean. Then plants. As soon as the water is dried, there are plants, trees. Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati . Sthāvara means the life which cannot move. So the trees, plants, grass, they cannot move. Then insects, then reptiles, then birds, then beast, then human being. In this way the living entity is changing body. So what is the difficulty? But they say that the human body developed right from these other bodies. In other words . . . Evolution, from beast human body has come. Where is the difference? Even there is difference, what is the idea? Well, they maintain that therefore man was not created by God, but simply by chemicals. Rascals! Wherefrom the life came first? Wherefrom the life came from? When you find life in the water, wherefrom this life came? They say originally it came from chemicals that came together. Rascal! Create from chemicals. Otherwise, beat them with shoes in their mouth. "Why you talk nonsense? Create from chemicals, life." (break) What do they say? They say they're working on it. Then be beaten with shoes. When you're successful, then say. Otherwise, I shall beat you with shoes. That's all. That is your punishment. You have not come to the experimental stage, and you are talking, "This is science." Science is experiment and observation. Unless the experiment is practical, practical science . . . it will be accepted as science when the experiment is successful. Not before that. That is scientific method. First of all, observe: "It may be happening like this." But that "maybe" should be confirmed by experiment. Then it is science. Even in colleges there is practical examination. Theoretical and practical. So unless . . . "We are trying." Everyone will say: "I am trying." "I am trying to become millionaire." When you become millionaire, then say that you are millionaire. You are trying for becoming millionaire, and you say, "I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? Huh? Yes. No one has ever observed the life coming from matter. Yes. Just prove that life comes from chemicals. How is that? "I am trying to be millionaire, therefore I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? You are trying to create from chemicals, therefore you are scientist. What's this kind of scientist? Beat them with shoes, that's all. *I have a researcher in our family, and he thinks the theory of evolution is the daśa*-avatāra . You can think like that. Your thinking has no value. No, not my thinking. Then don't say: "I am thinking." No, I said I have a researcher in our family; he thinks. What research? He's a rascal also! *No, but he thinks the daśa*-avatāra . . . "He thinks," means he's a rascal. Nothing to be think. It must be from the śāstra . Is there any evidence in śāstra that I could look? What is that? *The daśa*-avatāras , that the first was Matsya and then Kūrma and Varāha, and finally . . . That is God's pastime. He becomes like this, like that. It is not evolution. Not evolution. God is not so morphic. He's not an animal. Just like we're in this room but we don't become part of the room. (break) . . . so clear, but they refuse to accept it 'cause if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense. Huh? You make all these things so crystal clear, but they refuse to accept, because if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense. Refusal . . . let them refuse, and who cares for them? Actually, if they were successful in any experiment they would be out of a job. So they actually want material life, scientists. And now what is their science? This is science, that "We are trying"? What is this nonsense science? Do you think this is science? "We are trying." Everyone can say: "I'm trying." Is that science? Then? Any rascal can say that, "I am trying." Is that science? I heard that you had quoted a saying that anyone who goes to Laṅkā becomes a Rāvaṇa, and that similarly, when the devotees come to India, they become Rāvaṇa. I wonder if you would explain that or elaborate or explain how we can avoid this sort of thing happening. (break) I'm sorry? Ask the leaders. I was talking that in all our other branches, our men manage the cooking and kitchen, and as soon as they come here, they become . . . bara lath saheb (. . . big minister.) That is Rāvaṇa. Why do they not do here? We have to keep some cook who is neither initiated, nor very clean, a smoker, and we have to keep them. (break) In all other branches, the boys and girls, they manage everything. (break) . . . follow the regulations more strictly? That I have to say again? That means Rāvaṇa. He's asking. I am repeatedly saying that follow, and he's asking. That means he's Rāvaṇa. Why you are inquiring like that? If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? That means Rāvaṇa. If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? (break) . . . one week ago, and in just four days' time the devotees there have distributed over one lakh of Back to Godhead magazines in just four days. But you do not do here. Huh? That means Rāvaṇa. (laughter) (break) . . . to become less intelligent, less active, and therefore I say, yāya sei laṅkā sei haya rāvaṇa , "Anyone who comes to Laṅkā, he becomes Rāvaṇa." Their promotion in local language would be very helpful. No, in India will purchase English magazine, he knows English. Yes, he knows, but the popularity will be much more in the Hindi and Gujarati and Marathi speaking people, Bengali speaking. That is not possible. That is for you, Indians. But you have no time. You are busy with your daughter's marriage, and you simply advise. I am busy? Yes, everyone. Every Indian is busy with his own affair. He'll come and advise, that's all. Advise gratis. But he will not do himself. No, but . . . No, this is going . . . I have got full experience that Indians, they will come and give some advice, and go away for daughter's marriage. That's all. Well there are various types of Indians, you know. *That type of, ninety*-nine percent. *Just like ninety*-nine percent of us become lazy when we come to India. You'll advise, but you'll never do it. That is going on. *(break) . . . elephants dance, and we see. This is Indian policy. These white elephants, they'll come and dance, and you'll see. And you are busy with your daughter's marriage. That's all. (break) . . . means vairāgya*-vidyā. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga ( CC Madhya 6.254). Nobody can become a bhakta unless he has disgusted with material life. "I shall do this, I shall do that." And he'll never do bhakti-yoga . That's all. This is not possible. (break) Before leaving my family life I wanted to get my all sons and daughters married, but some of them disagreed, some of them . . . my wife disagreed. "Let them go to hell, I don't care. Time is up. Never mind you are married or not married. Then see your own business." (break) . . . I or you, then who will take care of the marriage of your daughter? Suppose you die immediately? Then who will take care? God will give them . . . *Then why don't you do that now? God will take care. It is called, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, civil suicide. Civil suicide. Just like if you commit suicide, that is criminal. But this is voluntarily committing suicide: "Now I am dead. Whatever you like, you do." So we have to commit civil suicide if we are actually attached to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya . . . (BG 18.66). That is gṛha-dharma . But Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up that." But that attachment is there. I do not think . . . suppose I die immediately. Who will take care of my daughter? At that time we say: "God." And why not now? That feeling of attachment one has to give up gradually. Yes. Therefore we cannot do because the attachment is there. That is the symptom. Saṅkīrtana will help give up the attachment. Yes. Therefore wherever you stay, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will help. Thākā ekhana pāiyā . Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, try for the daughter's marriage. That will help. (break) . . . kabhi mithta nahi. (. . . never gets finished.) Civil suicide is a good thought. That is the thought only. Oh, Doctor saheb. I asked him where you were, and he said that you are on the roof. Jaya . Wo kabh mithta nahi. Samundar jo hai na, uska tufan chalega. Koi sochta hai tufan band ho jaye, tab hum nav chalayenge. Wo sambhav hai nahi. (It never gets over. The waves in the sea will keep on coming. If somebody thinks that he will take out his boat only after the waves subside completely then that's not possible.) Prakriti hai, wo to chalega. (That is part of nature, it will go on.) (break) Hmm? I do not know. (break) You agreed, huh? . . . (indistinct) . . . is coming. I am going within four days. You go, find out what you . . . and then communicate with you. Huh? No, you asked me to stay at least a few days. But you must stay. If you don't stay, you can't stay, I have got no power to keep you tied here. If you will stay, well and good. If you can't even, well, I will try our best to inform you what should be done in four days. Hmm? Let God do whatever He likes. God will be doing through us. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . sir bhi dukhta hai . . . (indistinct) (. . . I get a headache . . . (indistinct) . . .) . . . blood pressure. But whatever you do . . . (laughs) You do not know . . . No, whatever is there is there. Let it remain. They also require some shelter. We want to find out . . . (indistinct) . . . why you are getting swelling or whether weakness of the heart. There are various reasons why did you get the swelling of the leg, you know. We must find out by biochemical examination of the internal fluids, such as the blood, urine and stool, and put you on the right information. Now if you follow or not is your own sweet will, sir. *Nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ , bālasya neha pitarau śaraṇaṁ nṛsiṁha. Na ārtasya ca agadam. Tāvad vibho tanu*-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām (SB 7.9.19). If Kṛṣṇa neglects somebody, then these things will not help. Kṛṣṇa never neglects anybody. You have told once so. It is we, our own actions which we, I mean, forget. We get. If you walk too much then you get tired. If you sit down you do not. If you walk, then there is swelling of the leg, sir. Eh? So it is not Kṛṣṇa. I mean, this is your own saying, eh? I am not manufacturing my own arguments. No, the śāstra says, nārtasya cāga . . . there is no guarantee. But we may try, but there is no guarantee. This is the play of māyā , that we all know. But so long as we are in māyā we have to play our part, haven't we? But it is supposition, the pathologist. No, I am going to bring. That was myself. He'll take blood, he'll take this, he'll take that. So that is another trouble. (chuckles) No, no, but why should you have a minus on blood? Why should you have minus, and whose blood is it? This is your own argument, sir, I am very sorry. No, no . . . Nothing is ours. The body is not ours. When you take blood, there is . . . Not of that . . . No, no, not that, but I feel . . . How you feel? You are a soul! The body feels; you do not feel. Now we are talking about the philosophy. I am not a liberated person. No, but . . . you are liberated soul, we are following you. There are many others, sir, otherwise we would not have come behind you. So, sir, that is not right. And I think I have got a right to prevail upon you. Have I or have I not? Tell me that, or I'll run away back again. (break) . . . it's not full. Who knows? We may be liberated in past birth. That is how I come. That's fine. That's your process. You are trying to do something for the disease. You see, we must know exactly what is happening. After all, science is the same with the Āyurvedic or allopathic or any. Science is, I mean, advancement of man's evolution of the man's understanding about things. I say, but somebody says that . . . what is the medicine? I take some Āyurvedic medicine. No, you do take. We don't say no. You don't take any medicine, we know exactly where you stand, as the modern science explains us. (break) Well, he may not tell us truth immediately, but that is his aim. Hmm. Now I am feeling some dizziness. Sit down. You sit down. Where is that sitting place? Niche jayenge ab hum. (We will go downstairs now.) Go down. (break) Harer nāma eva kevalam , kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21). (break) . . . is a big tank of Calcutta Gas Company. That looks like this. We have got also tank like this in Bombay. We have also gas company tanks. It's in . . . (indistinct) . . . we have bigger tanks here of the petroleum companies. Huge tanks, petroleum tanks. Yes. When I was in Northern Ireland preaching, they blew it up, the gas tank, by bombs. They blew the whole gas tank up. Where? In Northern Ireland, Belfast. Those terrorists. (referring to seat) It was here. Who has taken? It is coming now. Āsana , āsana . (break) The others, others is not. The other seat got taken away, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for cleaning. For making it cleaner. We can get mattresses from your room and a pillow if you'd like to sit down. No, no, this is all right. (break) Only tired feel? (break) . . . or may be due to poverty of heart action, or it may be due to some inaction on the part of the kidney or some collection of some obnoxious substances in the blood. That is why we must have an analysis done, so for a right understanding, we can advise you what to do. Anyone can write analysis, acidity and . . . (indistinct) Now, everything is less. Then you stay here. And you're completely home, without anything. You are not prepared to . . . this is . . . As soon as this building is, I will take. We listen to you, but you don't listen. That is the misfortune of ours. Huh? Actually, I have got so many engagements. Actually, I have got engagement in Bhubaneswar . . . And you are going to Bhubaneswar after fifteen days, no? . . . Calcutta, in Allahabad, then Māyāpur, then Vṛndāvana, then Bombay. So to make you fit to go round, you must do something. It's very logical. "Penny wise, pound foolish." So let pound be wise for the penny foolish. If you do in right path then you may not break down like . . . (indistinct) . . . getting all this trouble. (break) . . . at least for four, five days. We don't want any more. In one days we will find out what to . . . how to . . . this will be cured. I don't mean medicine, but even advice, food, this, that, other things. If you get rid of the medicine, well, all medicines are, I mean, synthetics. They are not produced from animals. Many of them. (break) Harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). (break) . . . that sound all the time. (sounds of birds) Do they have many birds in Bhubaneswar? Are there many birds in Bhubaneswar? Wherever there are nice trees, there will be birds. Girirāja is asking, he thinks there's more birds in Bombay than in Bhubaneswar. Girirāja Prabhu is stating there is more birds in Bombay. There are more crows in Bombay than any other place. (laughter) No, no. They are also birds. There are very more filthier, for the crows, to clean. So Prabhupāda should go, then. No, you see, if the good people is there, up there, you know the filth disappears. That's what the śāstra says. The sun dries up urine in a filthy place. So he must be here. Another argument, and he will answer. Yes, but there is also urine in Bhubaneswar. In Bhubaneswar you are going to have any plan for making a temple? What is my plan, that is always there, that is to print books and construct temples. Throughout the whole world this plan is going on: fifty percent construction, fifty percent printing books. Whatever I get money, I give him. That's all. I am the same beggar, either it comes ten lakhs or fifty lakhs , ten crores . You are exhibiting this body to be "I". Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam akledyo 'śoṣya eva ca (BG 2.24). No, no, that is different. You come down to body consciousness and talk to us. We want you to talk from higher consciousness. I have no higher consciousness. Then talk from the lower consciousness, still lower. Why should I? Let us go out and make a business in the stock market. I am doing business. I am selling books. (laughter) Stock exchange. Why not? It is very easy. I am selling books. Why not a Wall Street operation? It is very easy. They are all engaged in doing business. Have you wanted a businessman to come? I am doing business. Prabhupada ke mafik duniya me koi businessman hai? (Is there any businessman like Prabhupāda in the world?) *Ye to baniya hai. Baniya . . . (He is a businessman. A businessman) is a sweet*-oil tongued fellow. Guest(3): Prabhupāda itna bada businessman hai. World ka sab businessman fail ho gaya. (Prabhupāda is such a big businessman that all businessmen of the world have failed before him.) We can still make a bigger business in Wall Street. Have a Wall Street here in Bombay and . . . (laughs) You are criticizing the bāniyās . The bāniyās criticize the doctor. (laughter) And doctor criticizes you. Bāniyās say, they say, nal jal jocchuri teen niye daktari, (one tap, a little water and cheating, make up a quack doctor.) Nal jal . . .? Jocchuri . Jocchuri means? *Cheating. Suniye na. Teen chiz chahiye unko. Ek nal chahiye aur pani, lal*-nil pani . . . (Just listen. Three things are needed. One tap, red or blue coloured water . . .) Or all cheating words. But according to our śāstra , it is so. No, no, this is according to bāniyā , the doctor is calculated . . . Bāniyā is right in that way. Bāniyā is right. Humara Bangla desh me bolta hai je nal jal jocchuri, teen niye daktari. (In Bengal, they say that three things are needed to become a quack doctor, one tap, little water and cheating words.) In Bengali. In Bengali village there are many quacks. You know that. Everywhere. (laughter) So what their business? Nal jal jocchuri teen niye daktari. (One tap, a little water and cheating make up a quack doctor.) *In Mahābhārata , in Vidura*-nīti , Vidura has mentioned that a doctor should not be trusted and should not be allowed to come in the house. I am reading presently that part of Mahābhārata . Why? Because they must be right from the beginning, in olden times also they must be of the same type. Another place, Vaiṣṇava says, either he is businessman or doctor, anyone, they are all madmen. *Jaise koi admi ko bhoot pakad leta hai. (Just like a person who is haunted by a ghost.) Ghostly*-haunted. And he talks all nonsense. Similarly, anyone who is in the material condition, he is a ghostly haunted man. So he can talk anything, all nonsense. Piśācī pāile yena . . . this is applicable to everyone. Anyone who has got this material body, he's ghostly-haunted. Therefore we are explaining that verse, that first treatment is how to get out of the clutches of this ghost which has attacked everyone. So ghostly haunted man, he's himself a victim of the ghost. How he can treat other men? He's also haunted by the ghost. This is the position. Even one may say: "I am haunted by a better ghost." That may be, but every one of us ghostly haunted. And śāstra says this is treatment: tapasya . Tapo divyaṁ putrakā , yasmād sattvaṁ śuddhyed (SB 5.5.1). Sattva. Sattva, our existence, is polluted. The first business . . . (break) . . . the skin and bone. The skin and bone will continue so long I am in the material condition of life, either bird's skin . . . just like who was talking of evolution? Who was? (indistinct answer by devotees) Yes. This disease of skin and bone will continue. Because the spirit soul is not the bone and skin. The Darwin's theory, he is putting that the bone is changing. The bone is not changing. You get different bones in different life. I am changing my position. I am going from one apartment to another apartment. The apartment not changing; I am changing apartment. That is the difference between Darwin's theory and our theory. They are thinking the apartment is becoming another apartment. No. The apartments are already there. I am entering different apartments as I can pay for it. That is karma . According to my karma , I am sometimes residing in one apartment, in another apartment. This is going on. The Darwin's theory, the apartment is changing. That's not the fact. Fact is I am living entity. Tathā dehān . . . Kṛṣṇa also says, tathā dehāntara . Apartment antara . The spirit soul is the same. There is no change. That is spirit always, but according to his karma , he is going from this apartment, or this body, tathā dehān . . . that is the main point with the modern science and our Vedic knowledge. That is the main difference. They have no idea of the existence of the soul, and therefore say: "We are trying to make. We are trying to make." This rascaldom is going on. You cannot make soul. That is not possible. You cannot do anything. You cannot make even the body, what to speak of the soul. This is . . . Modern scientists don't say that we can make the soul. Soul is permanent in every man. No, the rascals say: "We can create." So that rascal, number of that rascal is more. They are saying, bluffing that, "Now we shall create chemicals. We are trying." This is going on. Just this morning he was saying. It is the theory of these people, I think, that . . . Communists. Communists. That means rascalism. Not a single soul has been created till now and these rascals are claiming that they are going . . . and they are scientists. We have to accept them as scientists. Just see. This is . . . not only now. One gentleman, one big doctor, chemist, he has got Nobel Prize, he came to California, and our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, he was in the also in the university, he's also doctor and chemist. So he was speaking on the chemical evolution. So he's my student, he challenged him that, "If I give you chemicals, can you prepare life?" "That I cannot say." Even a living cell of life . . . No, it was meeting. When Svarūpa Dāmodara challenged him that, "Suppose I give you the chemicals, right chemicals. Can you prepare a life?" Then he said: "That I cannot say." Why? Why do you say nonsense? Because their definition of life is very meager. They say that life is a chemical imbalance, a state of chemical imbalance. That is wrong. Life is something higher than . . . Therefore these chemists—they are predominating—so how it is possible to take their version? (greets someone) Aiye. Baithiye. (Please come. Take your seat.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (break) . . . a simple version of Vaiṣṇava: Jaya . Wherefrom you are coming? From London. Oh. You are Englishman? Yes. English. Stay here. We want some Englishmen. (laughter) No. We want Englishmen, Australian, Canadian, because they have no visa problem. American will have no visa problem very soon. Why? There is no question why. We'll understand it. No, no, that's all right. So the visa problem is a great problem for us, because in India for conducting our movement, we have to import the white men. Our Indians, they are not joining. So that is a great problem for me. They have to come, and they have to go again. And each time coming and going, ten thousand rupees. And that is happening at least one hundred cases every year. Ten thousand, hundred times, just imagine. This is my economic problem. Therefore I'm asking, "If you are Englishman, please stay." Because here, in India, they will see that, "The white man dancing, let us see." They will never join. They are busy with their own affairs. They will advise, "Do this, do that," but they will never come. This is my position. Practical. Therefore I'm begging the Englishmen, the Canadians, the Australians, "Please come and stay." Because huge establishment, who will manage? I am managing with them, but there is economic question. For each person I have to spend ten thousand rupees at least, and such hundred case . . . One million. This is the position. The Indians are not interested. They are not interested. You are firing everyone, so they run away. (laughter) What can be done? This is real position. Only I am a fool, not running away. (laughter) He says, Prabhupāda, "You rascals . . ." Everyone may be a fool, but if he continues to remain a fool, that is very bad. (laughter) A fool is a fool always. He cannot change his habits . . . *More or less every one of us, we are fool, mūḍha . Kṛṣṇa has stated mūḍha , mūḍha . Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). He has chastised like anything. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān (BG 16.19). So anyone who's not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is within these categories: duṣkṛtina , narādhama , mūḍha, māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna , āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ . This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is Indian movement, but na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ . They are not taking seriously. That is the position. It is our movement. Kṛṣṇa came in India, and because India is so glorified place, puṇya-bhūmi, even the demigods, they desire. Not India; *this planet, Bhārata*-varṣa. Formerly, the whole Bhārata-varṣa means whole planet. Anyway, for the time it is now minimized. So it is not ordinary land. So our men, they are not interested in such great movement. How much regrettable it is. And who are they? Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). If you speak the truth, then you take the quotation of Kṛṣṇa. Now every Indian should take part in this great movement. Every Indian. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. *It is para*-upakāra . India's business is para-upakāra . India's business is not exploitation. That is Indian. And para-upakāra means not that daridra-nārāyaṇa bhojana . No. Para-upakāra means to give him knowledge, for want of which he is suffering. That is real . . . *This is his real suffering. He's part and parcel of God. Qualitatively, he's as good as God, but he's suffering. Why he's suffering? Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). He has come to this material world, prakṛti , and . . . or mental concoction, he's creating his plan and struggling for existence. This is real suffering. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save him from real suffering. That Indians should take very seriously and join this movement. And para-upakāra , people need it all over the world. Otherwise, why these young boys, they have joined me? They are finding something relief by this movement. Otherwise, what business he has got to join with an Indian, poor Indian? I went to their country with forty rupees, that's all. So they are finding something relief. And actually it is relief. So our Indians are not interested. India is supposed to be the . . . what is called? Benefactor, or . . .? *Deva*-bhūmi , deva-bhūmi . Yes. But this knowledge is here. Huh? So they came, and we are there in the knowledge already. Apan mandir me jayenge? (Are we going to the temple?) Time ho gaya kya? (Is it time to go?) You can sit down here? No? I feel this is important. *All right. So, sab bharata*-varshi, young men, jitne hai, sabhi movement ko lijiye seriously. (So all young Indians should take this movement seriously.) It is not ordinary movement. Ye cheating movement nahi hai. (This is not a cheating movement.) This is real movement. Kṛṣṇa, what Kṛṣṇa is speaking, what Caitanya Mahāprabhu is speaking, that is not cheating. That is real solution of the problem. So we have taken the business of Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So every intelligent person, intelligent young man . . . now we have got . . . we have got everywhere, but especially now in Bombay—it is important city—we have constructed this. We can keep at least five hundred, six hundred men in these buildings. But who is coming? Nobody's coming. If they all come, then it will be difficult for you. *Then let them come first of all. (laughter) There is no "if." There is sufficient place. Come. But nobody's coming. They want to see, "Let these white men come and we see." That's all. "We see the fun." This is going on. They are coming. They are disgusted, but we are not disgusted. That is the difficulty. Therefore I was speaking to this boy, "You are Englishman. You have come." It's a problem now in Māyāpur, here. And the government is after them as soon as three months pass, "Get out, get out, get out, get out." Then how shall I conduct my business, a big, big establishment? This is another problem. But Kṛṣṇa is doing His own business. But practically seeing. This is India's business. Bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). Manuṣya-janma , not the cats and dogs, but those who have taken the human form. It is their business. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra , janma sārthaka . . . first of all, make your life successful by understanding the philosophy. Then, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra , preach this philosophy all over the world. That is para-upakāra . So actually that is being done. They understand; they are understanding this philosophy. There is struggle now in foreign countries. There is opposition now. Hmm? Who will explain what is the opposition? Today we just got a new package from New York from this boy. And some of the parents were charging that we were kidnapping and mentally imprisoning their children by making them devotees. Because from their point of view their children were lost to our movement. So . . . He's a lost child. His father and mother came to me, and mother was crying. I said: "So take your son." And the son will not go. (laughter) You are washing away their brains. (laughing) So they are charging like that. What is the new charge? Huh? Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are saying "mind control." (laughing) "Mind control." Yes. *Śrīla Prabhupāda, so many . . . all the big scholars in America, all the big famous scholars, they have put together one petition saying how authorized our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement are. And they are willing to come forward now. If any time they want some papers in the courtroom to show how bona fide our movement is, how we are actually not brainwashers and mind*-controlled, there are these scholars in America, they have pledged their support. There was a meeting of four big scholars at Harvard University—it's like the Oxford of America. And one famous theologian named Cox . . . Harvey Cox? Yes, and Kīrtanānanda Swami. His books are very famous. And they have brought up this issue of freedom of religion, that this is a bona fide religious movement and we should have freedom to worship. Then there's also a letter from a member of the World Fellowship of Religion, and he is also saying that he takes this very seriously and very grave, that such a bona fide movement is not being allowed to practice their religion freely. And then there's one, I think, Professor Sharma at one American University, and he is . . . Sharma or Sukla? *No, another one. Not Sukla. And this Sharma is saying that he has personal experience that this is a bona fide movement, and that the American public in general may not know, but A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is one of the renowned writers of translations of Vedic translations and commentaries of Vedic literature. (break) And then Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja is going with . . . a Swami? Chandra Swami, some Indian svāmī in America. But he's going with Ādi-keśava Mahārāja to meet the new President of the United States on January 27th. He's going to see? *Yes, Jimmy Carter. On January 20th he will become the next President. So Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja and this one Indian sannyāsī , they are going to make a representation to the new President. Who is that Indian svāmī ? His name is Chandra Swami. Chandra Swami? So why . . .? He's a young man. He must be Māyāvādī. I'm sure he is. He's taking advantage of this. He's a Māyāvādī. He's a man who is following tantric . So what is this nonsense? This should not be . . . he should not accompany. He's taking advantage of it. He's also directly associated with the Prime Minister, this young man, Chandra Swami. The Prime Minister is the greatest Māyāvādī. *Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna (BG 7.15). Māyāvādī means māyā has taken his knowledge. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . Ninety-nine percent they are Māyāvādīs. Swāmījī, what about those missionaries who are working in India who are coming from abroad, and they are actually exploiting? If they put a charge against our institution, well, we can definitely say that we are motivating the intellect to take into the higher stage of life. Here the missionaries who come, they go in the backward areas, and those who are not learned, those who are practically uneducated . . . I mean, their mission is to convert them in Christianity. You see, that charge is rather more grave than the particular one which they have leveled against us. You see, we can put that argument, isn't it? How many Hindus are converted into Christianity? We are not converting them, we are just . . . *Our case is not that we are going to convert one Hindu to Christian, or Christian to Hindu. There is no meaning. Our is, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Even if you are Hindu, even you are Muslim, you are Christian, kick it out. That is our movement. We do not advocate that "You are Christian; you become Hindu." Or "You are Hindu; you become . . ." They are taking like that. But our movement is not that. That's what I say. *Our movement is, either you are Hindu, either you are Muslim, either you are Christian, you kick out all this. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya . Simply you become surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, or God. This is our . . . and anyone who can do that, he is first-class religious. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Adhokṣaja. God's name is Adhokṣaja. You cannot see Him beyond your material perception. So if you are trained up to surrender to God, then you are religious. We do not say that you become Hindu or Muslim or Christian or this or that. We do not say so. But all Christians, if they truly are . . . I mean Hindus, that Christ . . . No, either he become Hindus, that does not mean the Hindus are perfect. We do not mean that. Even if he becomes Hindu, what is the benefit? No benefit. No. Even he becomes a Christian, there is no benefit. *I say any religious stamp, material, there is no benefit. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). You have to give up all these designations. And bhakti , love of Godhead, or service to God, begins when you are relieved from these designations. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When becoming God conscious you become completely purified, then your devotional life begins. And so long you are entangled with this designation, there is no question of devotional service. Either you Hindu or Muslim or Christian, it doesn't matter. So our business is not that, that we convert a Hindu to a Christian or a Christian to a Hindu. That is not our business. They are thinking, because we dress like that, with tilaka , with māla , they think "Hindu." But it's not our business to convert the Christians to become Hindus, as all other missionaries, they are doing. They are trying to increasing the number of Christian or Hindus. So our . . . there is no question of increasing. It is very difficult to accept. *Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy. Out of millions and millions of persons, one becomes perfect. And out of millions of perfect, one may understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the version of Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy that everyone, each one will become Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. But by the grace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , this is helping. Otherwise, it is very difficult task. Very difficult. It is recommended in the śāstra , kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply the Kali-yuga, kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ (SB 12.3.51). This is the version of Śukadeva Gosvāmī. He described the faulty ocean of this Kali-yuga, and at last he encouraged that "Mahārāja, there is one opportunity in this age." Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ , very great opportunity. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya : simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet , he becomes liberated and he goes back to home. This opportunity we are preaching. That's all. Otherwise, to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. This opportunity, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya . And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also recommends, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalaṁ kalau nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21). Otherwise, in this age, very difficult. (break) *During the Kumbha*-melā we are having our anna-kṣetra to serve the direct sādhus. We already started our camp on 21st December to last after 10th of February. If Mahārāja and all other devotees, they can definitely offer free arrangements over there because we have got the best camp. We have got the best camp. So why should we spend for our camp? (laughter) We are just on the bed of the river, far away from the melā , which is about three, four . . . we have our āśramas at various places, you know. What is this philosophy? What is? What is the philosophy? Philosophy is bhajana , Ādi Śaṅkarācārya. But whether you recognize Kṛṣṇa . . . Yes, sir, he was our guru . We have published a book from the Calcutta University, so just take your remise. Leave the book for you. Oh, this is for me? Baithiye, baithiye. Thoda Vedānta philosophy par charcha kijiye. (Please sit, please sit. Let us have a small discussion on Vedānta philosophy.) Let us discuss. What is Vedānta philosophy? Let us discuss something. You belong to this camp, so what is Vedānta ? Ādi Śaṅkarācārya's preaching, actually defining God as what he thought. Then what is the meaning? Everyone can think of God according to his whims. You say: "As he thought." That is not standard. So, what he describes . . . No, first of all, let us . . . whether if you think of God in your own way, is that valid or not? Because he has given a thought to it, you know. He has thought about it. *Anything might be the first*-class thought, but do you think that any man can think of God and create God? Do you think it is all right? Well, we are guided by those who have given a thought to it and who have meditated actually. You said that, "As he thought." Yes. So God is unlimited and you are limited. So how you can think of God? You see, I'll just quote one of his stanzas which reveal . . . I am talking . . . I understand your point of view, but I'm just, to Your Holiness, in the last stanza of his advaita philosophy, he says, ahaṁ nirvikalpo nirākāra rūpa vibhur apya sarvatra sarvendriyāṇi sadame sama . . . Who says " aham "? Śaṅkarācārya. That means a person is thinking of God. So that is my point, whether an individual person can think of God and ascertain that "Here is God." He comes to that particular conclusion, though, Your Holiness, he comes . . . he says that ahaṁ nirvikalpa nirākāra rūpa . . . So nirākāra . . . if you are speaking, then how he can become nirākāra ? He actually defines what prevails in the universe, what is that element which governs us. Let us just discuss from the point. As you say that, "I think" and "I speak," so when you speak, when you think, whether you are nirākāra or ākāra. He defines, ultimately, after all thinking . . . I am asking you. He has come to that conclusion. I'm asking you that when you think, when you . . . what is that other thing? Speak. So can anybody who is nirākāra , he can think and speak? Is there any experience? So what is the use of talking like that? Thinking is done by the mind, and mind is not soul. Yes. So, no, whatever it may be. If I think, if I speak, I am ākāra ; I'm not nirākāra . And that is for everyone. This is contra . . . What is that "everyone"? What it may be. First come to the platform of understanding. As soon as I think, I speak, this speaking, I'm thinking, is not coming from nirākāra. But what is that "I"? "I" means . . . what do you mean by "I"? I am person, you are person. When I say "I say," you say that we are person. So how you can say nirākāra ? It must be common knowledge. When I say "I speak," that is not nirākāra . How it can be nirākāra ? It is contradictory. It is not contradictory, but . . . Yes, it is contradictory. Unless you have got a personality, you cannot speak, you cannot think. So how it is nirākāra ? That is my first point. Kṛṣṇa says " aham ." He is person. We worship Kṛṣṇa as person. He says, aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). That " aham ," He's person. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa as person because He says, aham ādir hi devānām . *He's person. Kṛṣṇa never said that, "I am nirākāra ." Where He has said? Can you quote any verse? When He says nirākāra , He says like this: mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam (BG 9.4). Mayā , "by Me." Tatam idaṁ sarvam , "everywhere, by My energy." Just like the sun-god. The sun-god is within the sun globe. His bodily luster is coming. The sun*-god can say: "The sunshine is my bodily exposition." That is reasonable. Just like a big light, it has got exposition. Similarly . . . and that is confirmed in the śāstra : yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (BS 5.40). Yasya , the person. *So when Kṛṣṇa said, mayā tatam idam , mayā means, "I am there." But "I" is existing. That "I", person, is existing. Just like if I say that "It is I who has expanded. I am expanded all over the world by this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement," that's a fact. But that does not mean I am not a person. If I say that, "I am . . . this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means I am, I am spread by spreading this movement," that's a fact. But does it mean that I am imperson? That is, Kṛṣṇa says: mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta*-mūrtinā. Avyakta . So the same example we can give that in all my branches, 110 branches, they worship me as their guru. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4): "Everything is existing on My management." Nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ : "But I am not there." It is a fact. All these 110 branches, they are going on under my direction, but not that I am present everywhere. But that does not mean I am not a person. So the supreme, the supreme manager, the supreme controller, how He can be nirākāra ? That is my first question. He means to say, sir, that the māyākāra is not there. But the divyākāra is there, as we say. Let us understand him. No, He . . . nirākāra is there. So far His management power is going on, that is nirākāra . But that nirākāra does not mean that I am also nirākāra . That is the defect. The Supreme Person, it is confirmed by the śāstra . The Absolute Truth is person ultimately. *So those who are simply captivated by the Brahman, nirākāra , they are in the . . . just in the beginning of knowledge. Their knowledge is not perfect. That is not Vedānta . That is knowledge, but it is not anta. And Vedānta means the ultimate knowledge. And that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). If one does not know Kṛṣṇa, he's not a Vedāntist. That is my point. He does not know what is Vedānta . The veda-anta means Kṛṣṇa. Anta means the last word. The last word is brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate . Bhagavān. Unless one goes to the Supreme Lord Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, he's not a Vedāntist. That is my point. Veda means knowledge. Sir, Śaṅkarācārya also said, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindam . . . That's all right. One who says . . . we are studying from our common sense. Veda means knowledge, and anta means the last. And Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). So unless you know Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of Vedānta . There may be Veda . . . Knowledge. *Hah, knowledge. But that is not the ultimate knowledge. The ultimate knowledge will come when you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā : bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Therefore all these so-called Vedāntists, they will have to wait for many millions of years to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the position. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante . And if he's actually in knowledge, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate . That is the sign. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is wanted. So Vedāntist, so-called Vedāntist, we do not approve them because they have not come to the ultimate point of knowledge. This is clear. Veda means knowledge; *anta , anta means the last point. So unless you come to that last point of knowledge, that is not Vedānta . That may be Veda, but it is not Vedānta . Vedānta means māṁ prapadyate . Now, whether you approve these statements? Vedānta means to know Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedānta*-kṛd vedānta-vid ca aham . "I am the main meaning of the *Vedas* ." Yes, He is the . . . so He can speak what is Vedānta . And unless one accepts this Vedānta , he's not a Vedāntist. Therefore some of our Vaiṣṇava friends, they have given me this title, Bhaktivedanta. In 1947, something, they, purposefully, they gave me the title that Vedānta means bhakti . "So you take this title, 'Bhaktivedanta.' " And we are preaching this Vedānta , that the ultimate platform of Veda , knowledge, is to understand Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). So He's person; *He's speaking. So not that . . . the Māyāvādīs, they take that paratattva is the nirākāra*-brahman . But that is not paratattva . Here the person says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya . So if you have to accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme authority, then Vedānta means, He says also, to know Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, it is not anta. It may be middle, it may be beginning, but not anta . Sir, Śaṅkarācārya has made so many obstructs for this bhakti . And I mean to follow it . . . No, no, I'm talking of Kṛṣṇa. There are many other talkers. We are concerned because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. That's all. That is our philosophy. We may be fools and rascals, doesn't matter. But we accept what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all. Like a child, he's a child, he may be a fool. But when the father says: "My dear child, this is called microphone," and if the child says: "This is microphone," that is correct, because he takes the word of the father, who knows things. He may be child. So our business is like that. We don't claim ourself to be very learned, very advanced. We are fools and rascals. (break) *"How can I become guru ?" one may say: "I am not so learned, I am not so . . ." "No, no, you haven't got to bother. Still you can become guru ." "How?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "If you simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said, then you become guru ." That's all. So our business is that. We are guru not that because we are very learned, so-called Vedāntist. No. We are lowest of the lowest. But we are faithful to the words of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We have no other business. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has ordered, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bās . Very easy. And that is being effective. Now because I am carrying these words of Kṛṣṇa throughout the whole world, perhaps I have done the best service than the combined so much Vedāntists. All the Vedāntists of India could not do that. That's a fact. How it has become possible? Because we are simply speaking what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. That's all. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa . . . that's all. I do not claim that I am Sanskrit scholar, I am this big man, that man. No. Whatever books I have written, only about this—Kṛṣṇa. *In our book in every page you will find Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa. My Guru Mahārāja, if we used to write some article, so we wanted to show him how it is written. So he was very busy. So somebody would read, and Guru Mahārāja would say: "How many times he has said 'Kṛṣṇa'?" (laughter) If he finds that in every page there is "Kṛṣṇa," it is all right. That's all. (laughter) So we are making Vedāntist, "How many times he chants Kṛṣṇa?" If he chants always Kṛṣṇa, yes, he's Vedāntist. That's all. Bās . Because śāstra says, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). That is being effective. These boys, their forefathers or their father, grandfather, never knew what is Kṛṣṇa. But kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet . That is actually fact. So unless there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no question of Vedānta . That is my point. Ācchā . Jayenge . . . udhar nahi jana. (We shall go . . . but not there.) Zyada nahi bolne ka. (We should not say too much.) Nahi, Krishna naam to bolna hi hai. (No, we have to glorify Kṛṣṇa's holy name.) Krishna bolo magar gussa mat karo. (Take Kṛṣṇa's name but don't get angry.) Kirtaniyah sada harih. Krishna ka naam sab samay bolo. Ta aap log hum log ko thoda sahay kjiye Krishna naam prachar karne ke liye. ( Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ . Kṛṣṇa's name should be taken continuously. So all of you can kindly help me in spreading the holy name of Kṛṣṇa.) That is real Vedānta . And the Vedānta says also . . . if you actually read Vedānta , what is the beginning of Vedānta ? Boliye? (Tell me?) What is the beginning? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). This is not Vedānta . This is *Īśopaniṣad*. Janmādy asya yataḥ . *Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This is Vedānta . Yes. That is Vedānta , Brahma*-sūtra . This is Vedānta . So this life is meant for Vedānta . Athāto brahma jijñāsā . And what is Brahman? Janmādy asya yataḥ . Brahman means the Supreme Soul of everything. And Kṛṣṇa replies, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Then Vedānta starts. I'm inquiring what is the ultimate source of everything, and here is the answer. If you don't believe, that is another thing. You go on talking like anything. That is another thing. But answer is there. Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So we have to go to such mahātmā who knows vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti . Then it will be all right. But if we want to waste time, that is another thing. *So I am very glad to see you. So I wish that you may spread real Vedānta . That is essence of Vedas . Vedānta means essence of Vedas . Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Light is . . . of course there is light in the sunshine and there is light in the sun globe, but the source of light is coming from the sun*-god. Just like electric bulb, thousand power. So the illumination is also light, and the source of illumination, the bulb, that is also light. And what is that? Filament within? That is also light. But what is the anta light? Not this illumination. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the original source of light. Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (BS 5.40). It is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā . So Brahman knowledge is partial Kṛṣṇa knowledge. Paramātmā knowledge, partial Kṛṣṇa knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa knowledge is perfect. So partial knowledge is also knowledge, but Vedānta means full knowledge. So unless you come to that point, it is not Vedānta . The another example is just like from a distant place you see one mountain. You'll see just like something cloud. It is not cloud; *it is the mountain. But because you are seeing from a distant place you see it is something cloud. If you go little further, you'll see something green, and when you actually go to the mountain you'll find so many trees, so many living entities, so many everything full of varieties. The same mountain, absolute knowledge, advaya*-jñāna , tattva-jñāna . If we accept tattva-jñāna from distant place it is Brahman. If you see that tattva-jñāna still nearer, then it is Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61). And when you go directly to the person, just like we are talking face to . . . that is possibility. And that possibility Kṛṣṇa comes to show us. That is indicated by Śukadeva Gosvāmī that: *When Kṛṣṇa was playing with His cowherd boys friend, so Śukadeva Gosvāmī says: "Who are these boys who are playing with Kṛṣṇa, who is the source of brahma*-sukha ?" Brahma-sukhānubhūtyā . These boys are playing with another boy known as Kṛṣṇa. He is the source of brahma-sukhānubhūti . And dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena : those who are devotees, for them He is the Supreme Lord. And māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa : and those who are under the influence of māyā , they are seeing He's an ordinary boy. But whatever He may be, these boys who are playing with Him, sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ (SB 10.12.11). After many, many lives' acquisition of pious activities, now he has got this opportunity to play with this boy, the source of brahma-sukha . Itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā . They are not playing with ordinary child. He is the source of brahma-sukha . This is the statement of Śukadeva Gosvāmī. *So if we come to Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is personally presenting Himself, that is Vedānta . Otherwise, bahūnāṁ janmanām . . . we have come to that point, but if we neglect, then it will take many, many births to come to that point. Because that is the ultimate. Unless we come to that point, to understand Kṛṣṇa, there is still scarcity of knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa says that, "When there is scarcity of knowledge, then I appear." Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). When the scarcity of knowledge is polluted . . . not only scarcity, but it is polluted, glāniḥ . Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glāniḥ . This is dharma , to come to the perfect knowledge. Human being must come to the perfect knowledge, because this is a boon. Not the cats and dogs can understand. Human being. So when there is glāniḥ , they are accepting the preliminary beginning of knowledge as the perfect knowledge, that is glāniḥ . Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca . . . (BG 4.8). These things are there. Dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya : to establish real religious system. Sambhavāmi yuge yuge . What is that real religious system? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). *Bhāgavata*-dharma . *No, this is real dharma . Bhāgavata*-dharma is real, Bhagavān. Bhāgavata-dharma means in a relationship with Bhagavān. So if you do not know Bhagavān, then what is this knowledge? That is the defect. All dharmas —there may be Christian dharma , Hindu dharma , this dharma , that dharma —ask any one of them, "Do you know Bhagavān?" "Zero. Nirākāra ." Nirākāra means zero. When you come to the right point: zero. No substance. Therefore they have got this prayer, nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe . This is going on. Śūnyavādi and nirviśeṣa , nirākāravādi . We say . . . there are so many points. We say that, "The supreme father," the Christians say. So how the supreme father can be nirākāra ? We have got experience, my father has ākāra . His father has got ākāra , his father has got ākāra . So if you go to the supreme father, now how He is nirākāra ? I may not have seen my great-grandfather but that does not mean he's nirākāra . So I may not have seen God but if God is supreme father, how He can be nirākāra ? Boliye apka isme koi bolne ka ho to boliye? (So, do you have anything to say on this?) Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, he's a person. His father must be person. Yes. This is common sense. If son of God, if the son has form, how the father hasn't got form? What do you say? I'm asking you, this English boy. How the father can be formless? Christ says that he's the son of God. Is it not? English devotee: He said he was, yes. Yes. But he's a person. So how the father is imperson? What kind of father? Sir, instead of calling person, we say he's an individual. Person means this body. Person means individual. Individual. So God is an individual then? No, person. God is a person. Individual means person, individual person. They may think person means body. *Body or no body, that is separate thing. But when you say "individual," He is a person. And it is explained also in the Bhagavad . . . kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta*-cetasām (BG 12.5). Those who are inclined to the impersonal feature . . . God has got that impersonal feature. So they have to undergo more troubles to understand Him. And after going through troublesome business, bahūnāṁ janmanām , many, many births, then he understands, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam . . . here is the person." Everywhere this disease is very prominent, that God is impersonal. Perhaps this is the only movement in the world that's preaching, "No, God is person." All Vaiṣṇavas believe in the personal God. This is only one . . . (indistinct) . . . preach. Yes. Bring some prasāda . Distribute. (break) . . . camp. Let your group come and stay in our camp. No, no, we have already organized. We have also a organized camp. No, I would have saved this expenditure by joining your camp, but . . . *There is no question of expenditure. We welcome you and your institution over there. We have an arrangement for about two hundred tents, and we have got enough food to offer you, quality food, which you won't find in the whole of the Kumbha*-melā. Because originally . . . But suppose if we speak in this way, then you'll not agree. (laughter) Real food is finished. Only purīs , kachorīs . . . (laughter) We'll have more real food when you come over there. No, if you do not object our preaching like that, then I can go. Yes, definitely. Whether your Swāmījī will like that? No, of course. Because actually there is nothing against your preaching. Otherwise, I would not have come. No, this is a contradictory. We say God is person, and you say nirākāra . That is the difference. Why God should be nirākāra ? Ultimately, it is the . . . *Ultimately, you say nirākāra . We say ultimately ākāra . And that is the difference, gulf of difference. That is going on. We shall worship Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa there, with our ārati , just like we are doing in the temple. Perhaps your Swāmījī will not like this. And as soon as there is some contradiction . . . *No. Our main theme at the Kumbha*-melā is to speak direct to sādhus who come from Himalayas, because mainly since 150 years this institution is serving them at Hardwar and Prayaga. They don't walk down to Ujjain or Nasik. Mainly they come at Hardwar and Allahabad. So if you kindly give us a camp. But we shall preach this. You are at liberty. There is no ban on it. Actually, you see we, as we said, we are serving the humanity directly. That's all right. That all right. Nice. But sometimes, if somebody differs, that is not very palatable. No, no, Swāmījī. There is no . . . we welcome you there. I told Mangala when she came that we are not preaching a particular thing. We are going there to serve the people who come who are intellectual. For spiritual enlightenment. That's nice. Yes. And practically since many, many years our camp is considered as one of the best from all point of view—hygienic arrangements, food quality. We don't use dalda or anything. We have the pure ghee. There are people who give with heart. Suppose if you give us one camp, so how many men we can provide there? At least 50 to 100 people we can accommodate. No. Or if you want more . . . No, no. Our men will not be fifty to so much. Suppose for us, if you spare one camp, so how many men we can accommodate there? Because . . . In one tent at least we can accommodate six people. Easily. With a drawing room and two bedrooms. We have the military tents. And just on the bed of the river. So how many men you are expecting? Fourteen. Fourteen. (break) . . . you can serve how many people? Each tent we'll accommodate with all sanitary conditions. We have in one tent, which is quite a big one, six people easily. With a drawing and two beds. So at least three camps we shall require. Three or five. Whatever. Swāmījī, number is immaterial. Ācchā . So why don't you do that? One for yourself and three to us. So four. I can even reserve for your institution six, eight, ten. Number is immaterial. Then why don't you take? That is very good. Five reserve karo. Apan . . . (Reserve five tents for us . . .) *Number is immaterial. We have the special boats plying from our camp, because what our principle is, our Gurudev, Paramahamsa devji had taught us . . . away from the melā , in seclusion. Now there is a bhāga , what is known as a yushi*-bhāga , and since last two hundred years all the director sādhus , they reside there because it is away from . . . *Munshi*-bhāga that is . . . Yushi. Yushi. So as it is away from melā , there is no hustle and bustle of the melā . It's a secluded place. And from there we ply our own boats. We have about six, eight boats that take you for snāna . In the early morning at four o'clock we have the snāna in the Ganges itself near our camp, because . . . Confluence, confluence. *On the spot. We are in the bed of the river, and this plot is reserved since last two hundred years for us from the government when the melā comes— Pūrṇa*-kumbha , Ardha-kumbha . And the boats ply from our spot downstream at Prayaga on the saṅgam . That we take them during the day according to the nakṣatra . These gentlemen offering, why not take advantage? If it's away from the melā there won't be so much preaching there. People will come to you when they know that you are there. There is no need to go. (laughter) You can still have a small place in melā itself. That publicity will go like this. Don't worry about it. When the sun shines nobody says that the sun has risen. It has risen. Vedāntists say, but no one else . . . No, no, that's all right. So you take advantage of it. (everyone talking at once) Now is offering, you should . . . so immediately arrange for this. So Thik hai. Hum log ko dijiye kuch camp. (Okay. So please give us a few tents.) I'll telephone today and we'll make the arrangement at least for five to six, seven tents. *Thank you very much. Then it will be very nice. We are willing to go there. And we must go there. It is Kumbha*-melā. So if you give us five to six camps it will be very nice. Even up to ten. You don't hesitate for the number. Thank you. He's so liberal. You are actually Brahman. (laughter) Brahman means unlimited. Virāṭ. Virāṭ. Bṛhatyad , bṛnghanatya iti brahman . Not only the largest, but increasing. That is Brahman. Bṛhatya bṛnghanatya . I'm very much thankful to you. So you arrange immediately. To phir iske liye jo kuch karna hai bol dijiye. (Please inform us about any formalities involved.) I will send a message today, and you will let me know the date. They will come and receive you either at the Benares airport or here at Allahabad station. Because it's not far away from Allahabad. Yes, I know. I was in Allahabad for thirteen years. I know. *Yes. This Kumbha*-melā we have every year. First of all, you see, we have taken just near Yamunā bridge. As soon as the pilgrims come from various parts of the country we have got a . . . Yamunā bridge, there are two bridges. Just near Yamunā bridge there is an institution which belongs to Bombay, and that institution is reserved for us just to give a shelter first to people who come by rail. So take all these notes. We'll save so much money. Transit camp. So immediately. I'll come again, don't worry. Thank you very much. Now, distribute prasāda . Actually, you know, Swāmījī, I had stayed over here whenever he used to come. He passed away in 1960. Who? Our Swāmījī. He passed away at . . . (indistinct) . . . in 1960, 14th February. And he was very fond of Juhu since 1923, whenever he was coming to Bombay. Juhu is very nice, I know. But now the Juhu has lost its charm. I'm talking about 1923 up to '45. And he used to go deep in the sea up to two miles. He used to take us with him. That, one saintly person . . . what is his name? He was a Punjabi body. And mostly he resided in Gujarat. Developed five of his institutions. One in Ooty and two on Narmada and Tapti, and one is near Deoghar in Bihar. Bihar. Deoghar. Yes. One we have got in Hardwar itself. We have got a nice āśrama at Sapta Sarovara. I'll just show you one of his . . . because Juhu, whenever he was in Bombay he was at Juhu always. (indistinct comments by others) (break) He was residing at M. C. Satwar, you know, our Attorney General. He's Sindhi? Punjabi. He lived for 130 years. He's still living? No, he died only five years back. 1960. This must be one of . . . there was a crowd, you know, at M. C. Satwar's hall. M. C. Satwar had invited everybody from the high court, all the judges. So he was just having a chant with them. So "Swāmījī, we would like to hear you, something." He said: "I am an uneducated man. What can I say?" This was in 1956, just four years before he passed away. Then he was thinking what to tell these guys. Was just thinking for five, ten minutes. And then he spoke for two hours, spellbound. Beautiful. He was about 6 foot 4 inches in height. Real Punjabi. (laughter) And the color of his skin was as pink as the petal of the rose. He was a dynamic personality also. And the command over the language was superb. Just Your Holiness is quoting the Sanskrit quotations, just like Swami Gangeshvarananda, though he's a blind man. But you . . . he can quote from any chapter, any stanza, any couplet. He's also here at present. He's coming over there. No, he's my good friend. Yes. We had a word about you with him long back. Before, Swāmījī, Your Holiness came to India. He likes me. (laughter) Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) *She is my daughter*-in-law. Ācchā . He's your son? He's my son. He has just come day before from London to . . . You live in London? No, he's studying. He's an executive with the German company over there via India, this German firm. And she is my daughter. And since . . . Khub sukhi raho. Krishna naam karo. (Everyone be happy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Everyone be happy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our . . . a good family. (break) *So his friend is my friend. (everyone talking at once) Swāmījī says, he gave a good comparison about the bulbs. Some bulbs have forty candles, some have twenty*-five, some a thousand. Yes, yes. Jaya . So where is our Guru Mahārāja? Guru dāsa Swami? He went away? So I'll see them again. All right, thank you. (break) We'll arrange for the best that we could. That's nice. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (break) Ap kidhar ke rehne wale ho? Oh apni bangali. (Where do you live? Oh you are a Bengali.) Na bangali noi, Bengal e chilo. Oi khane ghar. Ekhon ektu . . . (indistinct) . . . jani na ki, ektu treatment nite eshechi ekhane, Ahmedabad e. (No, I am not a Bengali but I used to live in Bengal in my own house. Now I have come to Ahmedabad for some treatment.) Bangla besh bhalo bolen. (You can speak Bengali very nicely.) Speaks Bengali very nice. Yes, he lived in Shanti Niketan four years . . . (indistinct) So give him shelter. (end) Conversation A -- December 27, 1976, Bombay Hmm. Where is Jagadīśa? (break) . . . on the real goal of life. *Because they do not know that the goal of human life is to become freed from the repetition of birth and death, therefore there is no, as explained in the First Chapter of the First Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , The people in the age of Kali, the age of quarrel, have a short duration of life . . . (aside to child) Oh, you are tiger? How are you, Mr. Tiger? This is Mr. Ganesh elder son. Now, a tiger? Your grandson? Tiger. (Gujarati) No, he is . . . he is tiger? Ācchā . Thank you. Hmm. Go on. *People are lazy and unfortunate. They have no knowledge. And besides that, they are misled by foolish leaders. The leaders are intent only on deriving sense gratification from their so*-called high position. In the Bhāgavatam also it is explained that men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who do not glorify the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So the . . . it is a civilization of fools, a fool's paradise, where the common people are allowed to elect from amongst them one so-called leader who is the biggest rascal because he doesn't know anything, and none of the others, the common people, know anything about the purpose of life, and yet this so-called leader becomes elected on the basis that he can do something to help suffering humanity. The material existence is nothing but a struggle against material nature, which ultimately has no value. But it's an illusory struggle because of the spirit soul . . . Why it has no value? Because there is no . . . He'll not say that is has no value. You must give the reason why it has no value. *It has no value because there is no permanent connection between the spirit soul and the material energy. The spirit soul . . . there are two kinds of energy: material energy and spiritual energy. We have experience of both. The material energy is described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā . . . *You can describe like this: Just like if a man is diseased, so the physician imposes upon him some restriction, do and do not. So if by mistake we give up the do not's, then it is useless. He should observe the do not's. Then he'll be cured. And if he does not observe the do not's—whatever he likes, he does—that means his disease is increasing. Therefore it is useless. The real aim of life is how to get out of the clutches of māyā which is forcing me to accept the cycle of birth and death. That is my disease. Therefore tapasya. Tapasya means restricted life, not unrestricted life. So if we do not follow the restricted life, that means I shall continue my disease or increase my disease. The modern civilization, we are teaching how to enjoy this material world to the fullest extent, bhogaiśvarya , sense gratification, and for sense gratification, material opulence. But he does not know that he is killing himself. He is aggravating the disease. He has to accept another body. But that he does not know, that he'll have to take birth and die, again the same business. That he does not know. Therefore this civilization is misguided. Yesterday we were reading, tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We have to purify our existence. So this aim is missing—how to purify it. Sattva . I am eternal. Now I am existing in a condition, birth and death. That they do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). He does not know his interest. He's thinking, "This is life. Let me enjoy. And there is no life after death, and even there is, who cares for it?" This is going on. Guest (1) (Indian man): That tapasya means? Tapasya means restricted. Protect your mind . . . wed it to the soul, and take away from all extraneous things which are made up of māyā , is that not the meaning? *Tapasya means to rescue the soul from this material condition, yena sattvaṁ śuddhyet , to purify your existence. What is the impurification? Impurification is that the soul is subjected to repetition of birth and . . . that is impurification. That he does not know. So he is missing the goal of life, and he's thinking this temporary so*-called happiness for twenty years, forty years, fifty years, or utmost hundred years, that is his objective. That is a misleading. He does not know the aim of life. He thinks this material enjoyment to make this body stout and strong and enjoy senses like the hogs. Therefore it has been, na arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). The suar , hog, he is thinking, "I am eating stool. I am getting fatty. That is my life. And I am enjoying sex without any discrimination." No discrimination of sex, either mother or sister and daughter—it doesn't matter. This is hog's life. He does not know, as soon as he becomes fatty he'll be captured, and the bhaṅgīs will . . . what is called? Toast, make him a toast. In our country they do. In outside of the village they hang the pig, and with fire. Roast it. Roast. And he, it cries, " Chyaa, chyaa, chyaa ." And it is roasted, and they enjoy. But that he does not know. He is getting very strong, but he does not know that he's going to be roasted. Therefore he is misguided. He does not know nature's law. *Sir, isn't the real bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . dvijātmānaṁ brahma*-rūpaṁ deha-tyāgi vibhayaḥ tena kartavyam . . . (indistinct) . . . that type of bhakti is a tapasya . Then you . . . (indistinct) But who is going to take the bhakti ? You are going to take sense enjoyment. That bhakti is a tapa itself. That bhakti is amongst the tapas. *Yes, bhakti means tapasya . Just like they are in the bhakti line, they are doing tapasya . They are rising early in the morning, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, observing maṅgala-ārati , no meat*-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, so many things. It is tapasya . Whole thing is tapasya, tapa , because by this tapasya the contamination of the soul will be cured. Then, if he understands Kṛṣṇa, then he is transferred to the spiritual world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). He does not come again to accept this material body, and he permanently lives in the spiritual world. That is perfection. The modern civilization, they do not know all these things. They are misguiding that, "You earn to your best extent. Work very hard like hogs." And there is advertisement, "Work hard, the next." (loud sounds of thunder as storm approaches) They are pulling on ṭhelā , rickshaw, still, their leaders advising, "Work hard. Work still more hard." A human being is pulling on ṭhelā and rickshaw, and still hard work. And that rascal does not know that this hard work like hogs and dogs will not make the solution. But they are enthusing, "Yes, work hard. Be stout and strong," as if becoming stout and strong will save him. That's not possible. Modern civilization is a civilization of class, and Vedic civilization was a civilization of soul. We can say that is all. *That is the real civilization. Soul is enwrapped with this material body, and it has to be stopped. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). That is civilization. And he has no knowledge, na te viduḥ , what is the civilization. Then andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The rascal leader is also blind and the followers are blind, so both of them are doomed. Therefore the conclusion is, the modern civilization is misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ . Big, big leaders, they promises big, big ideal that, "I shall give you this facility. Just elect me." What facility he will give? No facility. He gives some false promise and gets his election and claps. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). He does not know what is the aim of life. Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ . He is animal also. And the other animals clapping, "Oh, we have got such a big leader." Big elephant, yes. (laughter) And elephant he may be, but he is, after all, a animal. What he'll do? Misguided. (loud sounds of thunder) (welcomes guest) Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . You don't require any covering? No, I do, but . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . my daughter. I have not seen him? He used to come. *So anyone's question about this, this misdirected civilization? In India there was no such misdirected civilization. Now they have learned how to misguide people, and they have taken this ideal, that "Unless we become like the Europeans and Americans, our progress is checked." This is going on. Actually there is no progress. We are condemned. Why they should waste so much energy for de*-gress, not for progress. Before British period, India, there were cities, but not like this, because their energy was utilized. Cities were constructed especially in pilgrimage place, like Mathurā. Mathurā is very old city, but that is a pilgrimage. Dvārakā, that is also very old city. First of all there was no need of big, big cities because there was no industry. They did not know what is industry. And there were ample food—food grains, milk, vegetables. Those who were eating meat, they were eating small, nonimportant animals like goats, hogs, and they never touched cows. Cows are very important animals. Even the stool, urine is important. They knew it. In the agricultural field the cows, passing stool, that is also benefit, natural fertilizing. And from cows' dung we have produced penicillin in Calcutta . . . (indistinct) That may be, but why penicillin is required? No, but that means it had some value right from beginning. Our forefathers must have known it. Why they did not . . . *No, no, we are speaking . . . we are speaking . . . because it is important, therefore Kṛṣṇa said, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya . Why go-rakṣya required, you do not require any explanation. Kṛṣṇa said go-rakṣya , "You must protect." That's all. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Because we have no brain why Kṛṣṇa—giving up all other animals—He is giving stress on go . And that is meaning. He never said animal- rakṣya, paśu-rakṣya. No. Those who want to eat paśu , let them eat nonimportant like hogs and dogs. There are class of men who eat dogs also, hogs also. Or, utmost, goats. But don't touch cow. This is instruction. And modern civilization first of all killed all the cows. And when they are no more available, then can you eat other animals. I do not know why our government is now restricting cow slaughter. They have banned the cow slaughter all over India now. I know that. Eh. This is only in Maharashtra, on the . . . They are restricting in Maharashtra also. (indistinct comments on subject by guest) No, what is the reason all of a sudden they have good sense? Vinoba Bhave wanted it. Vinobe Bhave is not so important. There is government policy, something. Otherwise they could not care what Vinobe Bhave said. It is . . . don't think it is due to Vinoba Bhave's request. No, but that is what apparently . . . What Vinoba Bhave . . .? There were so many agitation for stopping cow slaughter, big, big, Karpatra Ji and others, others . . . One Shankaracarya fasted seventy days. Yes, so they didn't care. Now, all of a sudden, why this good sense? Vinoba Bhave is not very important. There is some policy. They say that Sanjay Gandhi, who is very influential, is a staunch supporter of Hinduism. Oh, that may be cause. *I read in the papers the other day. He addressed the youth of the Arya*-samaj to find out what the . . . (indistinct) . . . is. And he's the leader of the Arya-samaj also. I understand from our propaganda that one . . . what is the Swami? Chandra Swami. Chandra Swami. He is the president? Yes, of Bharat . . . (indistinct) He has recommended our case that, "This is the only institution who is making the Christian Hindu. Before this movement the Christian converted Hindus. Nobody could convert the Christian to become Hindu. And this is the only movement that is converting Christian to Hindu." So he is very much in favor of this movement, and it is understood that he talked with Indira Gandhi in telephone. So may be that if that Hindu movement is increasing, and in India the cow slaughter is going on, and it is against Hindu, might have considered like that. Pakistan has banned cow slaughter. Yes. Because they had done away by vengeance, all the cows. They wanted to spite the Hindus, kill the cows . . . (indistinct) I don't think they kill cows in China, either, because its economic value is too great. That means they are coming to the sense how cow is important. (pause) It is said that he wants to see me. *Yes, at Kumbha*-melā. *That is a fact. Before me, for the last two hundred years, so many svāmīs and yogīs went to the Western countries. Nobody could convert a single person to Hinduism. That is a fact in the history. These foreigners—giving up meat*-eating, illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling—it is a horrible thing for them. Lord Zetland said: "This is impossible for us." Actually it is impossible, because American government spent millions of dollars to stop this LSD intoxication, but it was not successful. But they have seen that as soon as the same boy comes to our camp, he immediately gives up, immediately, without any protest that, "Why shall I give up?" No. I ask, "You have to give up." "Yes, we shall do." That's a fact. Therefore this Swami Chit . . .? Chandra Swami. Ah, Chandra Swami, has strongly recommended that, "This is the only movement which is converting Christian into Hindu." He is pleased on this account. He is not interested our Hare . . . he has said that, "I am not very much interested in Hare Kṛṣṇa, but I am interested in this point." That is natural, that nobody could convert the Christian to Hindu, but this movement is doing that. That is indirectly accepting Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Yes, that's a fact. We do not make any compromise. Vivekananda went there. He came back. He said, "What is the wrong in meat*-eating?" He introduced meat-eating amongst his contemporary sannyāsīs . This is his Vedānta - pracāra . So he is advertised that he preached Vedānta all over America, and everyone has become Vedāntist. What is . . .? What kind of Vedāntist? Now, he introduced meat-eating amongst the sannyāsīs , which was never in India, any . . . there are two sets of sannyāsīs : the Śaṅkara-sampradāya and Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya. But their ācāra is the same. They may differ in philosophy, but their ācāra is the same. Rather, the Śaṅkara-sampradāya sannyāsī are more strict than the Vaiṣṇava sannyāsī . Śaṅkara sampradāya sannyāsī , they'll never occupy a seat, those who are strictly following. They'll sit down on the floor, without any āsana . They lie down on the floor. They are so renounced. And what is this, that sannyāsī smoking and drinking? And ordinary sannyāsīs , they are drinking also tea, one ghara . I have seen it. Now Rajneesh gives sannyāsī and sannyāsinī . Ācchā , yes. Sannyāsinī , woman sannyāsī . It's just a mockery. He's not making any sannyāsī . He's not sannyāsa , he just gives name sannyāsa . Neo- sannyāsa he calls it. No, no, they dress like sannyāsī . They dress, but they smoke bīḍīs , they . . . (indistinct) *They say nava*-sannyāsa. They say nava-sannyāsa. Neo. Neo- sannyāsa . *There were three or four of them came to stay at the guesthouse in Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma guesthouse. Yes. Husband and wife sannyāsa . (laughter) *Yes. They were saying: "I am sannyāsī , and my brother is sannyāsī , and my wife is sannyāsī , but my mother*-in-law, she is not sannyāsī ." (laughter) *This is Kali*-yuga. Rascals, they are doing anything and any . . . *And he also has written Bhagavad*-gītā , his own Bhagavad-gītā . It's five to seven. So let us go down. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . (end) Conversation A -- December 27, 1976, Bombay Hmm. Where is Jagadīśa? (break) . . . on the real goal of life. *Because they do not know that the goal of human life is to become freed from the repetition of birth and death, therefore there is no, as explained in the First Chapter of the First Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , The people in the age of Kali, the age of quarrel, have a short duration of life . . . (aside to child) Oh, you are tiger? How are you, Mr. Tiger? This is Mr. Ganesh elder son. Now, a tiger? Your grandson? Tiger. (Gujarati) No, he is . . . he is tiger? Ācchā . Thank you. Hmm. Go on. *People are lazy and unfortunate. They have no knowledge. And besides that, they are misled by foolish leaders. The leaders are intent only on deriving sense gratification from their so*-called high position. In the Bhāgavatam also it is explained that men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who do not glorify the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So the . . . it is a civilization of fools, a fool's paradise, where the common people are allowed to elect from amongst them one so-called leader who is the biggest rascal because he doesn't know anything, and none of the others, the common people, know anything about the purpose of life, and yet this so-called leader becomes elected on the basis that he can do something to help suffering humanity. The material existence is nothing but a struggle against material nature, which ultimately has no value. But it's an illusory struggle because of the spirit soul . . . Why it has no value? Because there is no . . . He'll not say that is has no value. You must give the reason why it has no value. *It has no value because there is no permanent connection between the spirit soul and the material energy. The spirit soul . . . there are two kinds of energy: material energy and spiritual energy. We have experience of both. The material energy is described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā . . . *You can describe like this: Just like if a man is diseased, so the physician imposes upon him some restriction, do and do not. So if by mistake we give up the do not's, then it is useless. He should observe the do not's. Then he'll be cured. And if he does not observe the do not's—whatever he likes, he does—that means his disease is increasing. Therefore it is useless. The real aim of life is how to get out of the clutches of māyā which is forcing me to accept the cycle of birth and death. That is my disease. Therefore tapasya. Tapasya means restricted life, not unrestricted life. So if we do not follow the restricted life, that means I shall continue my disease or increase my disease. The modern civilization, we are teaching how to enjoy this material world to the fullest extent, bhogaiśvarya , sense gratification, and for sense gratification, material opulence. But he does not know that he is killing himself. He is aggravating the disease. He has to accept another body. But that he does not know, that he'll have to take birth and die, again the same business. That he does not know. Therefore this civilization is misguided. Yesterday we were reading, tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We have to purify our existence. So this aim is missing—how to purify it. Sattva . I am eternal. Now I am existing in a condition, birth and death. That they do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). He does not know his interest. He's thinking, "This is life. Let me enjoy. And there is no life after death, and even there is, who cares for it?" This is going on. Guest (1) (Indian man): That tapasya means? Tapasya means restricted. Protect your mind . . . wed it to the soul, and take away from all extraneous things which are made up of māyā , is that not the meaning? *Tapasya means to rescue the soul from this material condition, yena sattvaṁ śuddhyet , to purify your existence. What is the impurification? Impurification is that the soul is subjected to repetition of birth and . . . that is impurification. That he does not know. So he is missing the goal of life, and he's thinking this temporary so*-called happiness for twenty years, forty years, fifty years, or utmost hundred years, that is his objective. That is a misleading. He does not know the aim of life. He thinks this material enjoyment to make this body stout and strong and enjoy senses like the hogs. Therefore it has been, na arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). The suar , hog, he is thinking, "I am eating stool. I am getting fatty. That is my life. And I am enjoying sex without any discrimination." No discrimination of sex, either mother or sister and daughter—it doesn't matter. This is hog's life. He does not know, as soon as he becomes fatty he'll be captured, and the bhaṅgīs will . . . what is called? Toast, make him a toast. In our country they do. In outside of the village they hang the pig, and with fire. Roast it. Roast. And he, it cries, " Chyaa, chyaa, chyaa ." And it is roasted, and they enjoy. But that he does not know. He is getting very strong, but he does not know that he's going to be roasted. Therefore he is misguided. He does not know nature's law. *Sir, isn't the real bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . dvijātmānaṁ brahma*-rūpaṁ deha-tyāgi vibhayaḥ tena kartavyam . . . (indistinct) . . . that type of bhakti is a tapasya . Then you . . . (indistinct) But who is going to take the bhakti ? You are going to take sense enjoyment. That bhakti is a tapa itself. That bhakti is amongst the tapas. *Yes, bhakti means tapasya . Just like they are in the bhakti line, they are doing tapasya . They are rising early in the morning, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, observing maṅgala-ārati , no meat*-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, so many things. It is tapasya . Whole thing is tapasya, tapa , because by this tapasya the contamination of the soul will be cured. Then, if he understands Kṛṣṇa, then he is transferred to the spiritual world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). He does not come again to accept this material body, and he permanently lives in the spiritual world. That is perfection. The modern civilization, they do not know all these things. They are misguiding that, "You earn to your best extent. Work very hard like hogs." And there is advertisement, "Work hard, the next." (loud sounds of thunder as storm approaches) They are pulling on ṭhelā , rickshaw, still, their leaders advising, "Work hard. Work still more hard." A human being is pulling on ṭhelā and rickshaw, and still hard work. And that rascal does not know that this hard work like hogs and dogs will not make the solution. But they are enthusing, "Yes, work hard. Be stout and strong," as if becoming stout and strong will save him. That's not possible. Modern civilization is a civilization of class, and Vedic civilization was a civilization of soul. We can say that is all. *That is the real civilization. Soul is enwrapped with this material body, and it has to be stopped. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). That is civilization. And he has no knowledge, na te viduḥ , what is the civilization. Then andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The rascal leader is also blind and the followers are blind, so both of them are doomed. Therefore the conclusion is, the modern civilization is misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ . Big, big leaders, they promises big, big ideal that, "I shall give you this facility. Just elect me." What facility he will give? No facility. He gives some false promise and gets his election and claps. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). He does not know what is the aim of life. Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ . He is animal also. And the other animals clapping, "Oh, we have got such a big leader." Big elephant, yes. (laughter) And elephant he may be, but he is, after all, a animal. What he'll do? Misguided. (loud sounds of thunder) (welcomes guest) Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . You don't require any covering? No, I do, but . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . my daughter. I have not seen him? He used to come. *So anyone's question about this, this misdirected civilization? In India there was no such misdirected civilization. Now they have learned how to misguide people, and they have taken this ideal, that "Unless we become like the Europeans and Americans, our progress is checked." This is going on. Actually there is no progress. We are condemned. Why they should waste so much energy for de*-gress, not for progress. Before British period, India, there were cities, but not like this, because their energy was utilized. Cities were constructed especially in pilgrimage place, like Mathurā. Mathurā is very old city, but that is a pilgrimage. Dvārakā, that is also very old city. First of all there was no need of big, big cities because there was no industry. They did not know what is industry. And there were ample food—food grains, milk, vegetables. Those who were eating meat, they were eating small, nonimportant animals like goats, hogs, and they never touched cows. Cows are very important animals. Even the stool, urine is important. They knew it. In the agricultural field the cows, passing stool, that is also benefit, natural fertilizing. And from cows' dung we have produced penicillin in Calcutta . . . (indistinct) That may be, but why penicillin is required? No, but that means it had some value right from beginning. Our forefathers must have known it. Why they did not . . . *No, no, we are speaking . . . we are speaking . . . because it is important, therefore Kṛṣṇa said, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya . Why go-rakṣya required, you do not require any explanation. Kṛṣṇa said go-rakṣya , "You must protect." That's all. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Because we have no brain why Kṛṣṇa—giving up all other animals—He is giving stress on go . And that is meaning. He never said animal- rakṣya, paśu-rakṣya. No. Those who want to eat paśu , let them eat nonimportant like hogs and dogs. There are class of men who eat dogs also, hogs also. Or, utmost, goats. But don't touch cow. This is instruction. And modern civilization first of all killed all the cows. And when they are no more available, then can you eat other animals. I do not know why our government is now restricting cow slaughter. They have banned the cow slaughter all over India now. I know that. Eh. This is only in Maharashtra, on the . . . They are restricting in Maharashtra also. (indistinct comments on subject by guest) No, what is the reason all of a sudden they have good sense? Vinoba Bhave wanted it. Vinobe Bhave is not so important. There is government policy, something. Otherwise they could not care what Vinobe Bhave said. It is . . . don't think it is due to Vinoba Bhave's request. No, but that is what apparently . . . What Vinoba Bhave . . .? There were so many agitation for stopping cow slaughter, big, big, Karpatra Ji and others, others . . . One Shankaracarya fasted seventy days. Yes, so they didn't care. Now, all of a sudden, why this good sense? Vinoba Bhave is not very important. There is some policy. They say that Sanjay Gandhi, who is very influential, is a staunch supporter of Hinduism. Oh, that may be cause. *I read in the papers the other day. He addressed the youth of the Arya*-samaj to find out what the . . . (indistinct) . . . is. And he's the leader of the Arya-samaj also. I understand from our propaganda that one . . . what is the Swami? Chandra Swami. Chandra Swami. He is the president? Yes, of Bharat . . . (indistinct) He has recommended our case that, "This is the only institution who is making the Christian Hindu. Before this movement the Christian converted Hindus. Nobody could convert the Christian to become Hindu. And this is the only movement that is converting Christian to Hindu." So he is very much in favor of this movement, and it is understood that he talked with Indira Gandhi in telephone. So may be that if that Hindu movement is increasing, and in India the cow slaughter is going on, and it is against Hindu, might have considered like that. Pakistan has banned cow slaughter. Yes. Because they had done away by vengeance, all the cows. They wanted to spite the Hindus, kill the cows . . . (indistinct) I don't think they kill cows in China, either, because its economic value is too great. That means they are coming to the sense how cow is important. (pause) It is said that he wants to see me. *Yes, at Kumbha*-melā. *That is a fact. Before me, for the last two hundred years, so many svāmīs and yogīs went to the Western countries. Nobody could convert a single person to Hinduism. That is a fact in the history. These foreigners—giving up meat*-eating, illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling—it is a horrible thing for them. Lord Zetland said: "This is impossible for us." Actually it is impossible, because American government spent millions of dollars to stop this LSD intoxication, but it was not successful. But they have seen that as soon as the same boy comes to our camp, he immediately gives up, immediately, without any protest that, "Why shall I give up?" No. I ask, "You have to give up." "Yes, we shall do." That's a fact. Therefore this Swami Chit . . .? Chandra Swami. Ah, Chandra Swami, has strongly recommended that, "This is the only movement which is converting Christian into Hindu." He is pleased on this account. He is not interested our Hare . . . he has said that, "I am not very much interested in Hare Kṛṣṇa, but I am interested in this point." That is natural, that nobody could convert the Christian to Hindu, but this movement is doing that. That is indirectly accepting Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Yes, that's a fact. We do not make any compromise. Vivekananda went there. He came back. He said, "What is the wrong in meat*-eating?" He introduced meat-eating amongst his contemporary sannyāsīs . This is his Vedānta - pracāra . So he is advertised that he preached Vedānta all over America, and everyone has become Vedāntist. What is . . .? What kind of Vedāntist? Now, he introduced meat-eating amongst the sannyāsīs , which was never in India, any . . . there are two sets of sannyāsīs : the Śaṅkara-sampradāya and Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya. But their ācāra is the same. They may differ in philosophy, but their ācāra is the same. Rather, the Śaṅkara-sampradāya sannyāsī are more strict than the Vaiṣṇava sannyāsī . Śaṅkara sampradāya sannyāsī , they'll never occupy a seat, those who are strictly following. They'll sit down on the floor, without any āsana . They lie down on the floor. They are so renounced. And what is this, that sannyāsī smoking and drinking? And ordinary sannyāsīs , they are drinking also tea, one ghara . I have seen it. Now Rajneesh gives sannyāsī and sannyāsinī . Ācchā , yes. Sannyāsinī , woman sannyāsī . It's just a mockery. He's not making any sannyāsī . He's not sannyāsa , he just gives name sannyāsa . Neo- sannyāsa he calls it. No, no, they dress like sannyāsī . They dress, but they smoke bīḍīs , they . . . (indistinct) *They say nava*-sannyāsa. They say nava-sannyāsa. Neo. Neo- sannyāsa . *There were three or four of them came to stay at the guesthouse in Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma guesthouse. Yes. Husband and wife sannyāsa . (laughter) *Yes. They were saying: "I am sannyāsī , and my brother is sannyāsī , and my wife is sannyāsī , but my mother*-in-law, she is not sannyāsī ." (laughter) *This is Kali*-yuga. Rascals, they are doing anything and any . . . *And he also has written Bhagavad*-gītā , his own Bhagavad-gītā . It's five to seven. So let us go down. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . (end) Conversation A -- December 28, 1976, Bombay He made another point that in Krishna Shankar Shastri's compiling of the commentaries, commentators, that Śrīdhara Svāmī is given the first position. Yes. But he says that is because he was the first, but it does not mean he was the best. (laughs) It is nonsense. Unless one is best, why he should be given first? Any . . . if there is any meeting, the most important man is given the first position. At least out of respect. Everyone has given first position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore praised. What is his nonsense arguments? There are two other versions of *Bhāgavatam* . There also, Śrīdhara Svāmī has been considered the best commentator. Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepts. Svāmī nā māne yei jana veśyāra bhitare ( CC Antya 7.115). Everyone has given. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, iti svāmī caraṇa kahe . Jīva Gosvāmī, all authorities, they accept. And why they are criticizing Śrīdhara Svāmī? That is the main point. That is the main point. If you can criticize Śrīdhara Svāmī, then your criticism, why you take the criticism? Then others, you must be judged. Because all of these other gurus , they are all devotees now, all of them. So what they are going to answer to this? Will you accept everything? Ask them. So when the rascal . . . (indistinct) . . . but exposes you, what answer you have got? Why you are silent? Silent means acceptance. Maunam . . . (indistinct) . . . if I say: "You are rascal, you are thief," and if you don't reply, that means you accept it. Maunam . . . (indistinct) . . . if you do not protest, and if you do not say anything . . . so such a big criticism from . . . (indistinct) . . . and they are silent. Why do they not go to the court? Bluff only. That means he accepts . . . (indistinct) . . . has been made here? (static—very indistinct for some time) (indistinct Hindi) He was here also with . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja. Another (indistinct) . . . also . . . (indistinct) He is son of . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja, but he is very envious. Very, very envious. I went to him, I remember, when we were . . . *They are envious of the Gauḍīya*-sampradāya, because of . . . (indistinct) . . . since a long time. *But they cannot say anything against Gauḍīya*-sampradāya because Vallabhācārya glorified Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot say anything against Caitanya Mahāprabhu because Vallabhācārya glorified Him. No. He has written to . . . (indistinct) . . .? Yes. He made another point, that is, Vallabhācārya actually considered Caitanya Mahāprabhu as his superior. Then after this incident, still, he criticized Śrīdhara Swami. So that means he did not accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu as superior. There is no question of accept. He was plainly defeated. Because he said that . . . (indistinct) . . . even Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted his invitation after this. He also invited, and he also . . . (indistinct) . . . talk like that. So not only that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu criticized, but as soon as Vallabhācārya invited, He accepted. There was no enviousness. Rather friendly, sometimes they call others are . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu would accept invitation from Vallabhācārya? But they are habituated to criticize . . . (indistinct) . . . that Caitanya Mahāprabhu chastised him: "Why should you think like that?" In a friendly way . . . (indistinct) . . . they are still criticizing Śrīdhara Swami, and if others criticize them, "Why you are criticizing Śrīdhara Swami?" there is no answer. This is the position. (indistinct—only fragments of conversation audible for some time) *There was one . . . in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , there was one tax collector, a friend of Nityananda Prabhu, and then afterwards he was raided by the authorities, and his whole family and everything was completely finished. Yes. That was Haridāsa Ṭhākura. No, . . . (indistinct) He was the same one who also tried to . . . besides, some of the Vallabhācārya devotees told me in Ahmedabad that . . . (indistinct) . . . is also as debauched as the other . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct comments by devotees) What is his qualification to speak as ācārya ? (indistinct comments by devotees) . . . (indistinct) *They have no . . . (indistinct) . . . because they even refute what is in the śāstra . They were criticizing that Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja made mistakes when he wrote the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta also. They say like that? Yeah, he said that he didn't know . . . he wrote the wrong version in the section about Vallabhācārya, and that the real version is somewhere else. . . . (indistinct) *Yeah, well they don't accept the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . (indistinct) . . . they don't accept; *we don't accept you. The whole world is accepting Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . . . (indistinct) . . . all over the world, not only in India. All over the world. Is it not? (indistinct—fragmentary for some time) They even told me . . . (indistinct) . . . that this sampradāya will be finished by the forces from the . . . (indistinct) *(indistinct) . . . Gauḍīya*-sampradāya. So if the court decision is there, why not claim? (more indistinct fragments) (break) They're having a ceremony of bringing the flag. Again? Yes. From the Nathdwara, Bombay, at some place. And they invited us to do kīrtana . You may go. You have no . . .? You can go. Last time they would not let us distribute our magazines when they had it in Shrimati Morarji's house. They had the same ceremony in Shrimati Morarji's house here about a year ago, and they didn't like our book distribution there. What this time, where it will be held? This is an organization. This last time was Sumati Morarji's personal . . . Private house. This is organized function. You ask them a place to show our books. If they deny, then we don't go. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Jaya. Haribol . This one parade in Los Angeles, the Rose Bowl, they distribute thousands of books on this one day. What happens is all the karmīs get out there, sometimes the night before—at least very, very early in the morning—and they line both sides of the road. To see? To see, yes. Approximately a million people. About a million people, they're just lining both sides of the road, and the street is empty before the parade. So this year we're going to have the gurukula boys do a kīrtana and go right up the road. So one million people will see the saṅkīrtana party. And then it will be on television. It will probably be on television. *They have a similar parade in Melbourne like that, called a Moomba. Three*-quarters of a million people come for it, and the whole city closes down. And they line up and down the main road and then they have a parade of floats. So they invited that we could put a float in, so Bali-mardana said he would try and get the ratha cart in. Three-quarters of a million people seeing Lord Jagannātha. Why don't you do that in Los Angeles? (break) (end) Conversation A -- December 28, 1976, Bombay He made another point that in Krishna Shankar Shastri's compiling of the commentaries, commentators, that Śrīdhara Svāmī is given the first position. Yes. But he says that is because he was the first, but it does not mean he was the best. (laughs) It is nonsense. Unless one is best, why he should be given first? Any . . . if there is any meeting, the most important man is given the first position. At least out of respect. Everyone has given first position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore praised. What is his nonsense arguments? There are two other versions of *Bhāgavatam* . There also, Śrīdhara Svāmī has been considered the best commentator. Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepts. Svāmī nā māne yei jana veśyāra bhitare ( CC Antya 7.115). Everyone has given. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, iti svāmī caraṇa kahe . Jīva Gosvāmī, all authorities, they accept. And why they are criticizing Śrīdhara Svāmī? That is the main point. That is the main point. If you can criticize Śrīdhara Svāmī, then your criticism, why you take the criticism? Then others, you must be judged. Because all of these other gurus , they are all devotees now, all of them. So what they are going to answer to this? Will you accept everything? Ask them. So when the rascal . . . (indistinct) . . . but exposes you, what answer you have got? Why you are silent? Silent means acceptance. Maunam . . . (indistinct) . . . if I say: "You are rascal, you are thief," and if you don't reply, that means you accept it. Maunam . . . (indistinct) . . . if you do not protest, and if you do not say anything . . . so such a big criticism from . . . (indistinct) . . . and they are silent. Why do they not go to the court? Bluff only. That means he accepts . . . (indistinct) . . . has been made here? (static—very indistinct for some time) (indistinct Hindi) He was here also with . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja. Another (indistinct) . . . also . . . (indistinct) He is son of . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja, but he is very envious. Very, very envious. I went to him, I remember, when we were . . . *They are envious of the Gauḍīya*-sampradāya, because of . . . (indistinct) . . . since a long time. *But they cannot say anything against Gauḍīya*-sampradāya because Vallabhācārya glorified Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot say anything against Caitanya Mahāprabhu because Vallabhācārya glorified Him. No. He has written to . . . (indistinct) . . .? Yes. He made another point, that is, Vallabhācārya actually considered Caitanya Mahāprabhu as his superior. Then after this incident, still, he criticized Śrīdhara Swami. So that means he did not accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu as superior. There is no question of accept. He was plainly defeated. Because he said that . . . (indistinct) . . . even Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted his invitation after this. He also invited, and he also . . . (indistinct) . . . talk like that. So not only that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu criticized, but as soon as Vallabhācārya invited, He accepted. There was no enviousness. Rather friendly, sometimes they call others are . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu would accept invitation from Vallabhācārya? But they are habituated to criticize . . . (indistinct) . . . that Caitanya Mahāprabhu chastised him: "Why should you think like that?" In a friendly way . . . (indistinct) . . . they are still criticizing Śrīdhara Swami, and if others criticize them, "Why you are criticizing Śrīdhara Swami?" there is no answer. This is the position. (indistinct—only fragments of conversation audible for some time) *There was one . . . in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , there was one tax collector, a friend of Nityananda Prabhu, and then afterwards he was raided by the authorities, and his whole family and everything was completely finished. Yes. That was Haridāsa Ṭhākura. No, . . . (indistinct) He was the same one who also tried to . . . besides, some of the Vallabhācārya devotees told me in Ahmedabad that . . . (indistinct) . . . is also as debauched as the other . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct comments by devotees) What is his qualification to speak as ācārya ? (indistinct comments by devotees) . . . (indistinct) *They have no . . . (indistinct) . . . because they even refute what is in the śāstra . They were criticizing that Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja made mistakes when he wrote the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta also. They say like that? Yeah, he said that he didn't know . . . he wrote the wrong version in the section about Vallabhācārya, and that the real version is somewhere else. . . . (indistinct) *Yeah, well they don't accept the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . (indistinct) . . . they don't accept; *we don't accept you. The whole world is accepting Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . . . (indistinct) . . . all over the world, not only in India. All over the world. Is it not? (indistinct—fragmentary for some time) They even told me . . . (indistinct) . . . that this sampradāya will be finished by the forces from the . . . (indistinct) *(indistinct) . . . Gauḍīya*-sampradāya. So if the court decision is there, why not claim? (more indistinct fragments) (break) They're having a ceremony of bringing the flag. Again? Yes. From the Nathdwara, Bombay, at some place. And they invited us to do kīrtana . You may go. You have no . . .? You can go. Last time they would not let us distribute our magazines when they had it in Shrimati Morarji's house. They had the same ceremony in Shrimati Morarji's house here about a year ago, and they didn't like our book distribution there. What this time, where it will be held? This is an organization. This last time was Sumati Morarji's personal . . . Private house. This is organized function. You ask them a place to show our books. If they deny, then we don't go. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Jaya. Haribol . This one parade in Los Angeles, the Rose Bowl, they distribute thousands of books on this one day. What happens is all the karmīs get out there, sometimes the night before—at least very, very early in the morning—and they line both sides of the road. To see? To see, yes. Approximately a million people. About a million people, they're just lining both sides of the road, and the street is empty before the parade. So this year we're going to have the gurukula boys do a kīrtana and go right up the road. So one million people will see the saṅkīrtana party. And then it will be on television. It will probably be on television. *They have a similar parade in Melbourne like that, called a Moomba. Three*-quarters of a million people come for it, and the whole city closes down. And they line up and down the main road and then they have a parade of floats. So they invited that we could put a float in, so Bali-mardana said he would try and get the ratha cart in. Three-quarters of a million people seeing Lord Jagannātha. Why don't you do that in Los Angeles? (break) (end) Conversation -- December 29, 1976, Bombay Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is the author of all these books that you see. These books are being translated in every major language of the world. How many books in number? *Eighty*-four books of about four hundred pages each. How many in vernacular languages printing? *About twenty*-one different languages they have been translated. In India? Indian languages? No, international. French, Italian . . . In India? Indian languages? Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati, Tamil, Oriya, Bengali, Gujarati . . . every major Indian language. Can you tell us the different subjects covered by the . . .? *It's Vedic subjects. It's the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . *We are stressing especially on Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . You have printed outside India? : Do you have special on each chapter of *Gītā* ? *Oh, yes. Each word. You can show Bhagavad*-gītā . It's a very authoritative presentation. For example, here's the original Sanskrit śloka , word for word . . . *: (indistinct) . . . different . . . (indistinct) . . . for example, sāṅkhya*-yoga . You have a separate book? Then sthita-prajñā . You have a separate . . .? *No separately. It is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . : But that way, your volumes are dealing with each chapter of *Gītā* ? Yes. Each śloka . Each chapter. No, no. Not inside the book. Different volumes. Like eighteen chapters, but eighteen volumes. No, no. No. It's in one book. Twelve hundred pages. : And the interpretation is by you yourself? Yes. Not interpretation. I am explaining as it is. You can read one. : Have you tried to compare with *Gītā* written by Gyaneshvara, or by Vinoba Bhave or by somebody else? *According to Bhagavad*-gītā , if you don't follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā , you may be very learned scholar, whatever you write, it is lost. We follow that principle. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ ( BG 4.2). (aside) Find out this Fourth Chapter. Have these books been reviewed in foreign papers? It is very widely read. For example, in the Fourth Chapter Lord Kṛṣṇa says: *Kṛṣṇa says that this Bhagavad*-gītā has to be received by the disciplic succession. And sa kālena yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . Because that disciplic succession is now broken, that yoga system is now lost. So all these interpreters, they are interpreting in their own way. Therefore it is lost. So there is no use of consulting this lost version. : So you just give it as it is. *That is . . . therefore my Bhagavad*-gītā is named Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . No interpretation. *Each verse is the original Sanskrit śloka , English transliteration, word*-by-word meaning, so there's no room for manipulation. There's a translation and purport. Every book that Śrīla Prabhupāda has written has the same format, and each book is illustrated. : Do you believe that the *Gītā* should be followed as it is, or interpretation is another thing? *Yes, yes. If you read somebody's book, you must read the author's version. Why should you bring interpretation? This is . . . you have no business. If you want to say something of your philosophy, you can say, but why do you take Bhagavad*-gītā and give your own interpretation? That is very bad. : But can you not apply your own philosophy . . . *Why? Why should you? If you take Bhagavad*-gītā , you should speak what Bhagavad-gītā is saying. And interpretation is required when the thing is not understood clearly. There you get interpretation. Unnecessarily, why should you interpret Bhagavad-gītā ? You have no right. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). So anyone can understand there is a place Kurukṣetra still. Why should you interpret, "Kurukṣetra means this body and this and that"? Why? What is the necessity? Do you think there is necessity? : But just as . . . *No, no. First of all let us settle, that Bhagavad*-gītā begins: *So Mahābhārata is the history, and there was Battle of Kurukṣetra. And that Kurukṣetra is mentioned there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and it is dharma-kṣetra since Vedic age. So the word used, dharma-kṣetre and kuru-kṣetre , it is completely understood. Why should you interpret, unless you have got a motive? And why a sane man accepts that interpretation? If you have got a different philosophy, you can write your own book. Why should you cheat others, taking Bhagavad-gītā and interpreting in your own way? This has spoiled the whole thing. And Kṛṣṇa says that as soon as you deviate from the disciplic succession system, then it will be lost. So what is the use of reading something which is already lost? If I want to supply you something food, it must be fresh and palatable. Then you'll enjoy. But if it is rotten, decomposed, and if we supply you that foodstuff, what you will enjoy, and what you will get benefit out of it? Most Hindus, they are not properly able to understand Kṛṣṇa direct. No, I have already explained that when you cannot understand, then you interpret. But when it is clearly understood, why should you interpret? How you explain the act of Kṛṣṇa taking away the sārīs of the gopīs? *First of all try to understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then go to the sārī of gopī . You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa and you are going to His gopīs. This is another malinterpretation. You are studying Bhagavad-gītā . Talk of that. In the Bhagavad-gītā the gopīs' sārīs are not mentioned. So why you are bringing gopīs' sārīs now? This is our fault. Normally, you know, our people . . . *No, no. This is our fault There is no mention of gopīs' sārīs . We are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā , why you are bringing gopīs' sārīs ? Because that . . . *Again "because." There is no subject matter there. You have no right to bring that. That is our fault—to bring a horse before a cart. We are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā . There is no mention of Kṛṣṇa and gopīs' sārīs there. So let us talk. Finish that. : So you clearly said that interpretation is wrong. Interpretation means lost. : No, no. You clearly said that interpretation is wrong. Yes. : What has been done all these years? If you have done all these years wrong, that does it not right. If all of them have done wrong, then combined together it does not become right. : Will you repeat your . . . I mean to say if everyone has done wrong, then combined together will it become right? Hundreds of zeros will make one? It will remain zero. It will not be effective. Kṛṣṇa says, sa kālena yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . And what is the next line? Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . Then? Next line? Sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya (BG 4.3). Sa eva ayam yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. "Therefore I am saying you again the old yoga system. It is not that because the time has changed, I am changing it." Somebody says: "Now it was spoken some millions of years ago. Now it is modern ways, I am explaining in the modern way." That is not the system. The system is, "I am speaking the same yoga system," yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. And they are modernizing, making compromise. That is naṣṭa . That is the defect. Therefore we did not get any benefit. And in the modern countries, before me, so many yogīs, svāmīs have been there for the last two hundred years. *Not a single person became a Hindu. Now they are calling "American Hindus." Why? Because it was lost. Rotten thing was given. Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . If you supply something to me which is rotten and decomposed, such foodstuff, what shall I get benefit? Now they are getting benefit. Our mission is to put Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission that He said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Every one of you become a guru and deliver these persons, these fallen conditioned souls." That is your business. Now you can say, or I can say that, "How can I become guru ? I have no education, I have no talent. How can I become guru ?" The answer is, yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). You simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said, you become a guru . So we are doing like that. We haven't got to manufacture. We haven't got to take so much trouble or create it by our fertile brain. We are simply repeating what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. And see how it is effective. Do you mean it that a man who is under so much tension can . . . *No, no. First of all, try to see the distinction. Before me, so many people went. They misinterpreted Bhagavad*-gītā , there was no effect. And we are not misinterpreting. We are simply presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is given. That is the point. Everyone says: "Swāmījī, you have done wonderful thing." But I say: "I do not know any magic, jugglery. But wonderful thing is that I have not adulterated." That is wonderful. Otherwise, nothing wonderful. What I am saying? Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ (BG 9.34). I am creating them bhaktas , that's all. I am starting these temples and ask them that, "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. You become devotee, you always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. And they are giving up everything. Their father and mother, they are thinking, "They are our lost child." They are now giving the opposition. They have brought so many cases against me. *But unless it is effective, how they are feeling the weight? Now these boys, their father, mother constantly kidnap them, "Stay here." No, they will not stay. They'll not eat with their father, mother. So they think that, "Our son is lost." Other yogīs and svāmīs go, they give some method. And the son is there at home, "All right, a young man is going there." But here, their son is lost. Here their son is lost, and they are now called "American Hindus." So naturally they are very much against me. And counter movement is going on. They induce the government that, "This is not a religion. The svāmī knows some mind*-controlling power, and he's brainwashing." In this way, there is charge. So because America has got freedom of religion, so if they accept my movement as Hindu religion, they cannot do anything. The people are free to accept. But they are giving in a different charge, that I have manufactured something, that "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling—how people can accept all these things? They're brainwashed." There are so many charges. But anyone who comes to me, I don't make any compromise. Yes . . . (end) Conversation -- December 29, 1976, Bombay Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is the author of all these books that you see. These books are being translated in every major language of the world. How many books in number? *Eighty*-four books of about four hundred pages each. How many in vernacular languages printing? *About twenty*-one different languages they have been translated. In India? Indian languages? No, international. French, Italian . . . In India? Indian languages? Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati, Tamil, Oriya, Bengali, Gujarati . . . every major Indian language. Can you tell us the different subjects covered by the . . .? *It's Vedic subjects. It's the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . *We are stressing especially on Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . You have printed outside India? : Do you have special on each chapter of *Gītā* ? *Oh, yes. Each word. You can show Bhagavad*-gītā . It's a very authoritative presentation. For example, here's the original Sanskrit śloka , word for word . . . *: (indistinct) . . . different . . . (indistinct) . . . for example, sāṅkhya*-yoga . You have a separate book? Then sthita-prajñā . You have a separate . . .? *No separately. It is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . : But that way, your volumes are dealing with each chapter of *Gītā* ? Yes. Each śloka . Each chapter. No, no. Not inside the book. Different volumes. Like eighteen chapters, but eighteen volumes. No, no. No. It's in one book. Twelve hundred pages. : And the interpretation is by you yourself? Yes. Not interpretation. I am explaining as it is. You can read one. : Have you tried to compare with *Gītā* written by Gyaneshvara, or by Vinoba Bhave or by somebody else? *According to Bhagavad*-gītā , if you don't follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā , you may be very learned scholar, whatever you write, it is lost. We follow that principle. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ ( BG 4.2). (aside) Find out this Fourth Chapter. Have these books been reviewed in foreign papers? It is very widely read. For example, in the Fourth Chapter Lord Kṛṣṇa says: *Kṛṣṇa says that this Bhagavad*-gītā has to be received by the disciplic succession. And sa kālena yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . Because that disciplic succession is now broken, that yoga system is now lost. So all these interpreters, they are interpreting in their own way. Therefore it is lost. So there is no use of consulting this lost version. : So you just give it as it is. *That is . . . therefore my Bhagavad*-gītā is named Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . No interpretation. *Each verse is the original Sanskrit śloka , English transliteration, word*-by-word meaning, so there's no room for manipulation. There's a translation and purport. Every book that Śrīla Prabhupāda has written has the same format, and each book is illustrated. : Do you believe that the *Gītā* should be followed as it is, or interpretation is another thing? *Yes, yes. If you read somebody's book, you must read the author's version. Why should you bring interpretation? This is . . . you have no business. If you want to say something of your philosophy, you can say, but why do you take Bhagavad*-gītā and give your own interpretation? That is very bad. : But can you not apply your own philosophy . . . *Why? Why should you? If you take Bhagavad*-gītā , you should speak what Bhagavad-gītā is saying. And interpretation is required when the thing is not understood clearly. There you get interpretation. Unnecessarily, why should you interpret Bhagavad-gītā ? You have no right. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). So anyone can understand there is a place Kurukṣetra still. Why should you interpret, "Kurukṣetra means this body and this and that"? Why? What is the necessity? Do you think there is necessity? : But just as . . . *No, no. First of all let us settle, that Bhagavad*-gītā begins: *So Mahābhārata is the history, and there was Battle of Kurukṣetra. And that Kurukṣetra is mentioned there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and it is dharma-kṣetra since Vedic age. So the word used, dharma-kṣetre and kuru-kṣetre , it is completely understood. Why should you interpret, unless you have got a motive? And why a sane man accepts that interpretation? If you have got a different philosophy, you can write your own book. Why should you cheat others, taking Bhagavad-gītā and interpreting in your own way? This has spoiled the whole thing. And Kṛṣṇa says that as soon as you deviate from the disciplic succession system, then it will be lost. So what is the use of reading something which is already lost? If I want to supply you something food, it must be fresh and palatable. Then you'll enjoy. But if it is rotten, decomposed, and if we supply you that foodstuff, what you will enjoy, and what you will get benefit out of it? Most Hindus, they are not properly able to understand Kṛṣṇa direct. No, I have already explained that when you cannot understand, then you interpret. But when it is clearly understood, why should you interpret? How you explain the act of Kṛṣṇa taking away the sārīs of the gopīs? *First of all try to understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then go to the sārī of gopī . You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa and you are going to His gopīs. This is another malinterpretation. You are studying Bhagavad-gītā . Talk of that. In the Bhagavad-gītā the gopīs' sārīs are not mentioned. So why you are bringing gopīs' sārīs now? This is our fault. Normally, you know, our people . . . *No, no. This is our fault There is no mention of gopīs' sārīs . We are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā , why you are bringing gopīs' sārīs ? Because that . . . *Again "because." There is no subject matter there. You have no right to bring that. That is our fault—to bring a horse before a cart. We are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā . There is no mention of Kṛṣṇa and gopīs' sārīs there. So let us talk. Finish that. : So you clearly said that interpretation is wrong. Interpretation means lost. : No, no. You clearly said that interpretation is wrong. Yes. : What has been done all these years? If you have done all these years wrong, that does it not right. If all of them have done wrong, then combined together it does not become right. : Will you repeat your . . . I mean to say if everyone has done wrong, then combined together will it become right? Hundreds of zeros will make one? It will remain zero. It will not be effective. Kṛṣṇa says, sa kālena yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . And what is the next line? Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . Then? Next line? Sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya (BG 4.3). Sa eva ayam yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. "Therefore I am saying you again the old yoga system. It is not that because the time has changed, I am changing it." Somebody says: "Now it was spoken some millions of years ago. Now it is modern ways, I am explaining in the modern way." That is not the system. The system is, "I am speaking the same yoga system," yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. And they are modernizing, making compromise. That is naṣṭa . That is the defect. Therefore we did not get any benefit. And in the modern countries, before me, so many yogīs, svāmīs have been there for the last two hundred years. *Not a single person became a Hindu. Now they are calling "American Hindus." Why? Because it was lost. Rotten thing was given. Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . If you supply something to me which is rotten and decomposed, such foodstuff, what shall I get benefit? Now they are getting benefit. Our mission is to put Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission that He said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Every one of you become a guru and deliver these persons, these fallen conditioned souls." That is your business. Now you can say, or I can say that, "How can I become guru ? I have no education, I have no talent. How can I become guru ?" The answer is, yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). You simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said, you become a guru . So we are doing like that. We haven't got to manufacture. We haven't got to take so much trouble or create it by our fertile brain. We are simply repeating what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. And see how it is effective. Do you mean it that a man who is under so much tension can . . . *No, no. First of all, try to see the distinction. Before me, so many people went. They misinterpreted Bhagavad*-gītā , there was no effect. And we are not misinterpreting. We are simply presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is given. That is the point. Everyone says: "Swāmījī, you have done wonderful thing." But I say: "I do not know any magic, jugglery. But wonderful thing is that I have not adulterated." That is wonderful. Otherwise, nothing wonderful. What I am saying? Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ (BG 9.34). I am creating them bhaktas , that's all. I am starting these temples and ask them that, "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. You become devotee, you always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. And they are giving up everything. Their father and mother, they are thinking, "They are our lost child." They are now giving the opposition. They have brought so many cases against me. *But unless it is effective, how they are feeling the weight? Now these boys, their father, mother constantly kidnap them, "Stay here." No, they will not stay. They'll not eat with their father, mother. So they think that, "Our son is lost." Other yogīs and svāmīs go, they give some method. And the son is there at home, "All right, a young man is going there." But here, their son is lost. Here their son is lost, and they are now called "American Hindus." So naturally they are very much against me. And counter movement is going on. They induce the government that, "This is not a religion. The svāmī knows some mind*-controlling power, and he's brainwashing." In this way, there is charge. So because America has got freedom of religion, so if they accept my movement as Hindu religion, they cannot do anything. The people are free to accept. But they are giving in a different charge, that I have manufactured something, that "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling—how people can accept all these things? They're brainwashed." There are so many charges. But anyone who comes to me, I don't make any compromise. Yes . . . (end) Conversation -- December 30, 1976, Bombay . . . cannot accept anything artificial, but Mr. Vijaya cannot keep up to that standard. Vinoba Bhave is also not cent percent. Oh, I know. But by chance, on this particular point . . . *He has written book, Bhagavad*-gītā Pravacana . But in his bhāṣya there is no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . So what is this Bhagavad-gītā Pravacana? Why he has avoided kṛṣṇa-bhakti? What is the reason? He's envious. *Gandhi has . . . the same thing. Bhagavad*-gītā . . . he is writing essays on Bhagavad-gītā and the main principle of Bhagavad-gītā , man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru ( BG 18.65), mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). What is that? Mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo 'si me. So where is that? They don't follow. *This is their defect. Therefore they are failure. Must be failure. They do not take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. They mix with their false ideas, and therefore spoil, adulterate. And bhagavad-bhakti is without adulteration. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167). Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). Pure. No adulteration. That is bhakti . Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). That is not nirmalam . Sa mala it is. With mala . With mala . Mala . It cannot be. Proportionately. So where she has sent this article? In some of the newspapers in Vidor, and maybe Nagpur. He's writing for about three or five copies of those original clippings. He has written very nicely. Good writer. Picked up the essence of the movement. That was published. Isko chapo. (Print this.) Isko? (This?) So distribute them. (all talking together) Ye jab se hamare hindu magazine chape aisa kisi me bhi nahi hai. (Since our Hindu magazines have been printed, there has been no mention like this anywhere . . .) . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhāgavata Darśana? Next issue. This issue is almost finished. Next one. Just stop this light. (indistinct conversation with Girirāja) Gujarati. *Then it won't be just for Kumbha*-melā. Prabhupāda wanted it for Kumbha-melā. (break) Well, I don't know. It will be a big program there from part of Madhava Mission. They've spent four lakhs rupees. They never . . . I never thought they had so much money even for their own projects. They collect from the big sects . . . (indistinct) . . . he is very influenced. Any of the sects can give for this. For Kumbha Mela, all the Marwari want to wash off their all the sins they did. (laughter) *So explain with that purpose. At least, they are . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) You cannot give up these four things: yajña, dāna, tapasya . So yajña for the brahmacārīs , begin yajña . And dāna for the gṛhasthas , and tapasya for the sannyāsīs . Yajña*-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ na tyājyam , Kṛṣṇa says. Do not give up this, "I have become sannyāsī , therefore I'll give up my tapasya also." Sannyāsī means the life of tapasya . If you give up tapasya also, then what remains? How you become a sannyāsa ? Yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ na tyājyaṁ kāryam eva tat (BG 18.5). It must be continued. And again He stresses, yajño dānaṁ tapaś krya pāvanāni manīṣiṇām . Even if you think that you have become very great, "Now I'm very exalted personality. I don't require. I have become paramahaṁsa ," no, no, no, no. This yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ , even if you are very exalted, still, it will purify you more, these things. Yajño dānaṁ tapaś kriyāḥ pāvanāni manīṣiṇām . In any condition of life these things cannot be given up. *So those who are in sense, gṛhasthas , they must give in charity, at least fifty percent of their income. That was shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He, fifty percent. Dānam means not to the daridra*-nārāyaṇa . Dānam means to the brāhmaṇa , Vaiṣṇava. In our śāstra , charity is recommended to be given to the high-class men, brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas. They know how to spend money. Therefore dātavyam iti yad dānaṁ tad dānaṁ sāttvikam ucyate (BG 17.20). Just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are appreciating. So all the charity should come here. Then it is properly utilized. Because we do not use a single paisa for anything of sense gratification. We do not even smoke, we do not take tea, we lie down on the floor. Not a single paisa is spent for our sense gratification. Everything is utilized for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore all charity should come here. Properly spent. But if we misspend, that is our fault. Single paisa we spend for our sense gratification, that is fault of us. And people should give at least fifty percent of their income to this movement. Twenty-five percent to the family, and twenty-five percent let him keep for himself in case of emergency. *This is the example shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. So there was emergency. Everything they showed practically. Sanātana Gosvāmī was arrested. Whatever money they kept for themselves, that was given as bribe to the jail superintendent and got out of jail. This is example given by Gosvāmīs, that fifty percent was given to the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, fifty percent they deposited with the local . . . formerly, the bāniyās were bankers, village bankers. Whatever one has got, extra money, they should deposit, and the bāniyās will give him some interest and utilize the money. He will not usurp the money. People believe, just like bank, everywhere, crores of rupees they are collecting daily, because people know, "As soon as I shall want the money, it will be paid." So bāniyās were very honest. By others' money they would prosper, and the money is ready. Because they were doing with commodities, even he has no cash money he can immediately sell something and pay. That was the credit. That was the credit. Then people believed them. The village bankers were these grocers, especially the gold merchants. Therefore the gold merchants were bankers and dealers in gold. Suvarṇa*-vaṇik . They had position. They have got stock of ornaments, gold ornaments, silver utensils. So you can believe in him, that by putting in his custody one hundred, one thousand rupees, he can deliver, at any moment, the bankers. And Rūpa Gosvāmī did it practically. Some money for emergency, some money . . . relatives, they also expect. That is allowed. So they should be given something. Not that cent percent. At least twenty-five percent to the relatives and twenty-five percent for personal. And fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa. This is the system. *So this is called dānam . Kṛṣṇa also says, kuruṣva tad mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27): "If you want to give in charity, give it to Me." Kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam . Dadāsi yat. "If you have got some capacity to give something, give it to Me." He never said to daridra-nārāyaṇa . I do not know how they manufacture these things. Kṛṣṇa says: "Give it to Me." He's not daridra. He's Nārāyaṇa, but He's not daridra. So the principle is to give to the richest Nārāyaṇa, not daridra-nārāyaṇa . But these rascals misinterpret that daridra has become Nārāyaṇa. How daridra can become Nārāyaṇa? This is going on. And therefore there is no effect. There is no effect. See from practical what Vivekananda has done? But they have made propaganda, false propaganda—they have got roads. In a city like Bombay, big road, Vivekananda. But they do not care what Vivekananda has done. Even they got road, in the road so many nonsense going on. That every road is there. We have no such thing. But he's not recognized in . . . wherefrom he has got the advertisement that in America he has done tremendous work? What they have done? The government may like to popularize him because he preached the cult of "work hard." What "work hard" he has . . . (indistinct) He can't do anything himself. Other day one man was telling me they bought two of your Bhāgavatams , Ramakrishna Mission. He said that one Ranganath Swami from South India, from Hyderabad, he was lecturing there, but he was . . . when he was lecturing he had your *Bhāgavatam* , First Canto, Part One in his hand, and he was speaking from there. (laughter) I said it is very good. Aap kidhar se aye hain? (Where have you come from?) Mathura, Vrindavan. Accha. (I see.) Give him prasāda . Ye prasad pake jaiyega. (Have this prasadam and go.) Many ācāryas , they imitate you. They read your books and take some of this part, and what is useful for them they use on their lecture. How we should stop them? (break) At least part of the lecture's going to be all right. (laughs) They cannot utilize my writing in their favor. No, some of the thing they take for their favor. They glory their own. They read your books and they glorify their own. No, that is not . . . So we should stop them like that. No, no. Don't stop. They cannot do it. It means that Prabhupāda has influenced them to say what Prabhupāda has written. Ranganath was speaking from my book? Yes, he was quoting that śloka , I remember, from First Canto, Part One. That one our Life Members . . . they were all the . . . all the big people, they goes there. So he told me when he came, he took a *Bhāgavatam* . He said that, "Today Ranganath had read your book." I said that they had bought two books from me. He said that he opened that like this. Then he saw the cover of our book, so he was quoting śloka from that, and he was reading the purport and giving speech on that. Because there is no such edition in English on *Bhāgavatam* except yours. So that I was very much pleased, actually, there to know when I heard that. In the beginning also they purchased. When I published three copies in Delhi they purchased, because such translation is not there. So, that is all. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- December 30, 1976, Bombay . . . cannot accept anything artificial, but Mr. Vijaya cannot keep up to that standard. Vinoba Bhave is also not cent percent. Oh, I know. But by chance, on this particular point . . . *He has written book, Bhagavad*-gītā Pravacana . But in his bhāṣya there is no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . So what is this Bhagavad-gītā Pravacana? Why he has avoided kṛṣṇa-bhakti? What is the reason? He's envious. *Gandhi has . . . the same thing. Bhagavad*-gītā . . . he is writing essays on Bhagavad-gītā and the main principle of Bhagavad-gītā , man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru ( BG 18.65), mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). What is that? Mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo 'si me. So where is that? They don't follow. *This is their defect. Therefore they are failure. Must be failure. They do not take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. They mix with their false ideas, and therefore spoil, adulterate. And bhagavad-bhakti is without adulteration. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167). Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). Pure. No adulteration. That is bhakti . Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). That is not nirmalam . Sa mala it is. With mala . With mala . Mala . It cannot be. Proportionately. So where she has sent this article? In some of the newspapers in Vidor, and maybe Nagpur. He's writing for about three or five copies of those original clippings. He has written very nicely. Good writer. Picked up the essence of the movement. That was published. Isko chapo. (Print this.) Isko? (This?) So distribute them. (all talking together) Ye jab se hamare hindu magazine chape aisa kisi me bhi nahi hai. (Since our Hindu magazines have been printed, there has been no mention like this anywhere . . .) . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhāgavata Darśana? Next issue. This issue is almost finished. Next one. Just stop this light. (indistinct conversation with Girirāja) Gujarati. *Then it won't be just for Kumbha*-melā. Prabhupāda wanted it for Kumbha-melā. (break) Well, I don't know. It will be a big program there from part of Madhava Mission. They've spent four lakhs rupees. They never . . . I never thought they had so much money even for their own projects. They collect from the big sects . . . (indistinct) . . . he is very influenced. Any of the sects can give for this. For Kumbha Mela, all the Marwari want to wash off their all the sins they did. (laughter) *So explain with that purpose. At least, they are . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) You cannot give up these four things: yajña, dāna, tapasya . So yajña for the brahmacārīs , begin yajña . And dāna for the gṛhasthas , and tapasya for the sannyāsīs . Yajña*-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ na tyājyam , Kṛṣṇa says. Do not give up this, "I have become sannyāsī , therefore I'll give up my tapasya also." Sannyāsī means the life of tapasya . If you give up tapasya also, then what remains? How you become a sannyāsa ? Yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ na tyājyaṁ kāryam eva tat (BG 18.5). It must be continued. And again He stresses, yajño dānaṁ tapaś krya pāvanāni manīṣiṇām . Even if you think that you have become very great, "Now I'm very exalted personality. I don't require. I have become paramahaṁsa ," no, no, no, no. This yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ , even if you are very exalted, still, it will purify you more, these things. Yajño dānaṁ tapaś kriyāḥ pāvanāni manīṣiṇām . In any condition of life these things cannot be given up. *So those who are in sense, gṛhasthas , they must give in charity, at least fifty percent of their income. That was shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He, fifty percent. Dānam means not to the daridra*-nārāyaṇa . Dānam means to the brāhmaṇa , Vaiṣṇava. In our śāstra , charity is recommended to be given to the high-class men, brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas. They know how to spend money. Therefore dātavyam iti yad dānaṁ tad dānaṁ sāttvikam ucyate (BG 17.20). Just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are appreciating. So all the charity should come here. Then it is properly utilized. Because we do not use a single paisa for anything of sense gratification. We do not even smoke, we do not take tea, we lie down on the floor. Not a single paisa is spent for our sense gratification. Everything is utilized for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore all charity should come here. Properly spent. But if we misspend, that is our fault. Single paisa we spend for our sense gratification, that is fault of us. And people should give at least fifty percent of their income to this movement. Twenty-five percent to the family, and twenty-five percent let him keep for himself in case of emergency. *This is the example shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. So there was emergency. Everything they showed practically. Sanātana Gosvāmī was arrested. Whatever money they kept for themselves, that was given as bribe to the jail superintendent and got out of jail. This is example given by Gosvāmīs, that fifty percent was given to the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, fifty percent they deposited with the local . . . formerly, the bāniyās were bankers, village bankers. Whatever one has got, extra money, they should deposit, and the bāniyās will give him some interest and utilize the money. He will not usurp the money. People believe, just like bank, everywhere, crores of rupees they are collecting daily, because people know, "As soon as I shall want the money, it will be paid." So bāniyās were very honest. By others' money they would prosper, and the money is ready. Because they were doing with commodities, even he has no cash money he can immediately sell something and pay. That was the credit. That was the credit. Then people believed them. The village bankers were these grocers, especially the gold merchants. Therefore the gold merchants were bankers and dealers in gold. Suvarṇa*-vaṇik . They had position. They have got stock of ornaments, gold ornaments, silver utensils. So you can believe in him, that by putting in his custody one hundred, one thousand rupees, he can deliver, at any moment, the bankers. And Rūpa Gosvāmī did it practically. Some money for emergency, some money . . . relatives, they also expect. That is allowed. So they should be given something. Not that cent percent. At least twenty-five percent to the relatives and twenty-five percent for personal. And fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa. This is the system. *So this is called dānam . Kṛṣṇa also says, kuruṣva tad mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27): "If you want to give in charity, give it to Me." Kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam . Dadāsi yat. "If you have got some capacity to give something, give it to Me." He never said to daridra-nārāyaṇa . I do not know how they manufacture these things. Kṛṣṇa says: "Give it to Me." He's not daridra. He's Nārāyaṇa, but He's not daridra. So the principle is to give to the richest Nārāyaṇa, not daridra-nārāyaṇa . But these rascals misinterpret that daridra has become Nārāyaṇa. How daridra can become Nārāyaṇa? This is going on. And therefore there is no effect. There is no effect. See from practical what Vivekananda has done? But they have made propaganda, false propaganda—they have got roads. In a city like Bombay, big road, Vivekananda. But they do not care what Vivekananda has done. Even they got road, in the road so many nonsense going on. That every road is there. We have no such thing. But he's not recognized in . . . wherefrom he has got the advertisement that in America he has done tremendous work? What they have done? The government may like to popularize him because he preached the cult of "work hard." What "work hard" he has . . . (indistinct) He can't do anything himself. Other day one man was telling me they bought two of your Bhāgavatams , Ramakrishna Mission. He said that one Ranganath Swami from South India, from Hyderabad, he was lecturing there, but he was . . . when he was lecturing he had your *Bhāgavatam* , First Canto, Part One in his hand, and he was speaking from there. (laughter) I said it is very good. Aap kidhar se aye hain? (Where have you come from?) Mathura, Vrindavan. Accha. (I see.) Give him prasāda . Ye prasad pake jaiyega. (Have this prasadam and go.) Many ācāryas , they imitate you. They read your books and take some of this part, and what is useful for them they use on their lecture. How we should stop them? (break) At least part of the lecture's going to be all right. (laughs) They cannot utilize my writing in their favor. No, some of the thing they take for their favor. They glory their own. They read your books and they glorify their own. No, that is not . . . So we should stop them like that. No, no. Don't stop. They cannot do it. It means that Prabhupāda has influenced them to say what Prabhupāda has written. Ranganath was speaking from my book? Yes, he was quoting that śloka , I remember, from First Canto, Part One. That one our Life Members . . . they were all the . . . all the big people, they goes there. So he told me when he came, he took a *Bhāgavatam* . He said that, "Today Ranganath had read your book." I said that they had bought two books from me. He said that he opened that like this. Then he saw the cover of our book, so he was quoting śloka from that, and he was reading the purport and giving speech on that. Because there is no such edition in English on *Bhāgavatam* except yours. So that I was very much pleased, actually, there to know when I heard that. In the beginning also they purchased. When I published three copies in Delhi they purchased, because such translation is not there. So, that is all. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation A -- December 31, 1976, Bombay *. . . so glorious. Glorious. He's glorious. That's all right. But kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī will imitate his behavior, but he is not fixed up. Therefore it is not good for him. He is forbidden. This is . . . He's forbidden to hear from a nondevotee. *Yes. They will commit so many mistakes, and they'll take it for granted. Just like this " nitāi*-gaura-rādhe-śyāma ." That is avoided for kaniṣṭha-adhikārī . There are so many mistakes, rasābhāsa . So two things are there always, two sides: one for the mahā-bhāgavata , one for the ordinary kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī . So in the temple it is to be supposed generally for the madhyama-adhikārī and kaniṣṭha-adhikārī especially. So in the temple we should not . . . We should just listen to whatever the ācāryas have . . . Yes. I remember once before, a few years ago, you sent a letter out saying that no one should try to compose songs or . . . *Yes. I do not encourage. What they will compose? They have no realization. But they're speaking something about Kṛṣṇa. That's his beginning. Just like a child, he speaks half*-broken. That is not language. It has no meaning. But still the child, "Ah, ah, you are so nice, you are so nice, you are so nice." Because he's trying to speak something: "Papa, mama." And mama is . . . not that his words are complete. When we go out and preach, and we just repeat or try to repeat whatever we've heard from the spiritual master, but we may not have fully realized what we're speaking about, does that somehow or another reduce the potency of the *Gītā* or the *Bhāgavatam* or . . .? Yes, realization takes time. Therefore there is no question of realization. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says you simply repeat as Kṛṣṇa says. That will save you. Just repeating. *The so*-called political leaders, they have no realization, but they manufacture their ideas. That is dangerous. Mislead themselves and others. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam ( BG 13.8). This is the process of knowledge. These so-called scholars and politicians, they have no ācārya . Instead of being amānitvam , they're mani . . . "I have become a leader, so whatever I shall say, it will be accepted." This is going on. Very bad. It is clearly said, as soon as you give up the ācārya system it is rotten. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa (BG 4.2). So things which is rotten, what you'll get benefit? That is going on. *Therefore in spite of so many Gītā commentators, big, big leaders, scholars, not a single person is converted into a devotee. Not a single person amongst their followers. It's useless talking. Therefore it is forbidden. Avaiṣṇava*-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtam . . . (Padma Purāṇa). Because they are not Vaiṣṇava, politicians and . . . reject them immediately. Immediately. That is the injunction. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are so respectful. People have got . . . now you have got your svarāja . Please take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and let us preach." *Sir, Raj Gopalacharya in his commentary, he has mentioned that Bhagavad*-gītā should be learned through the ācāryas . Yes. As Gopalacharya has commented. He was a Vaiṣṇava. Raj Gopalacharya was sensible man amongst the whole lot. He was a Vaiṣṇava cult. Yes, I know. Chakravarty. So . . . (indistinct) . . . I say that amongst the whole lot he was a sane man, Raj Gopalacharya. Because by culture he's a Vaiṣṇava. (break) . . . agreement with Jawaharlal Nehru. He never was in agreement. Not a single item. He therefore resigned. He wanted to form his own party. Who's that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Raj Gopalacharya. If they had followed Raj Gopalacharya this country would have been far better in knowledge. Raj Gopalacharya. That is because he was paraṁ bhakta , to tell the truth, always. *Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate (SB 5.18.12). Therefore he was qualified. Anyway, if you are interested in Bhagavad*-gītā , how you can misinterpret? How you can put your own words to mislead people? How much misleading this is. *Actually, they're not interested in the Bhagavad*-gītā . I knew all these things, but what I am? I have no position. *But what you have commented is correct. And the Bhagavad*-gītā , real thing is man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Instead they directed their attention to karma and this and that. It was . . . and similar thing . . . But because they did not learn subject matter from ācārya . Ācārya . Yes. Ācārya . One has to learn from the ācārya . Ācārya is one who ācāra , himself practices. *Yes. No. One who knows and practices. Ācinoti śāstra . One who knows the real purpose. And there is no difficulty of understanding the real purpose. It is clearly said, everything. The process of knowledge is given, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 13.8). Where is that? In the beginning, "Oh, I am such a big leader, politician. Whatever I say is nice." Dambha. Dambha . Because he's thinking puffed*-up, falsely. Some rascal fools give them clap. (Prabhupāda claps) They think, "Oh, I have become very great." Nowadays, sir, they collect people to clap them. Huh? Nowadays the politicians collect them. Yes. No. They make such a speech and practice. One political leader, he is young man, he was saying in Hyderabad . . . he was ambassador in . . . that Rao? Yes, Motilal Rao. So he did not know. He said that, "When I was going to be ambassador, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he told me that, "You first of all write a speech and practice it, and deliver it very nicely. Then they will applaud." This is Dr. Radhakrishnan. They want simply applause. That's all. Because they know, "If the public applauds, then I keep my position. I am . . . whatever nonsense I speak or whatever nonsense I . . . it doesn't matter." Public support. Bās. That is their only business. Some of them, they don't even write their own speeches. They have a professional script writer. Yes. Professional writer and some speaker. All of them . . . (indistinct) Even the President of the United States has a speech writer. *Learned scholar, English licensed. We know that Madanmohan Malhotra. And in those days Surendranath Bannerji was a great orator. You have heard his name? Surendranath Bannerji. He is the practically father of Indian nationalism. So he was I.C.S., and in those days English scholar. His father was very big doctor, Dr. Dugdhachandra Bannerji. So his speech, this Madanmohan Malhotra used to rote it, cram, and before a mirror he would speak like this, "Oh . . ." In this way he became a politician. He was smārta*-brāhmaṇa and he became a politician, simply by imitating Surendranath Bannerji's speech. Even those who are with Baroda Maharaja and all Maharaja's speeches were written by . . . (indistinct) . . . so one can . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is thinking "These are your ideas, Maharaja." "Well, everyone knows that I am writing it. It doesn't matter. I won't correct it." All the speeches given by Maharaja of Baroda was written by . . . (indistinct) . . . all, all, practically all. Here's a reference there. And he was a great scholar after all. *Oh, yes. He was English*-born. His father was medical man, Dr. Madanmohan Bannerji. They say he did not know even Bengali properly. *Yes. How he can? He was born in England, educated in England. He was English*-born. Then he became a master in Sanskrit. That is a great, I mean, intelligent . . . That may be. He was a scholar. They were big scholars. He was professor in Baroda University. Professor of French and Philosophy. There is one hall, Aurobindo Hall, in Baroda. All followers of Aurobindo are Bengalis and Gujaratis. Hmm. No, there are others, in foreign countries. He was scholar. *In the āśramas Bengalis and Gujaratis will go fifty*-fifty. There are some South Indians also there . . . (indistinct) . . . "You are from India?" He had a very big following of Gujaratis. Because he was first in Gujarat. Baroda Maharaja, when he, when he did not appear in horse riding test . . . (indistinct) . . . but he did not want to start the competition . . . (indistinct) . . . so he came. So Baroda . . . (indistinct) . . . Maharaja knew he has came. Baroda Maharaja was in England then. He called him, saying . . . (indistinct) . . . the same thing as the Britishers did at Baroda. That is, Baroda Maharaja was appreciated. No, he was a person to be appreciated. There is no doubt. He had so many qualifications. But he was also doing yoga practice. When he was put into . . . no, after getting released from jail, twelve years. He was to be hanged. C. R. Das. Yes. It was said that the man who was judge was his classmate in Cambridge, Oxford, or something like that. Maybe. C. R. Das made a very good speech. I have read all about what he . . . (indistinct) . . . for practicing yoga in jail. When he has himself written when he came to the minister's court. He felt that everywhere was Kṛṣṇa. Everyone was . . . he was seeing Kṛṣṇa everywhere. That was his feeling. So he would not be punished by anybody. But God is everywhere, even . . . (indistinct) . . . his brother was transported to the . . . he was to be hanged, and then he was transported to . . . (indistinct) . . . the Bengalis . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) This is the fact, that yato mata tato patha , whatever path you accept, that is authorized. He said that. Do you think it is bona fide? Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam , and he approves anything. He was a partial political leader also. That's all. He's a political leader. But then he had a great burning desire to see that India be free of British purpose. He was a real nationalist . . . *That even cats and dogs, they also want that, "My cats be well fed and be strong." That is not a very good position. And Bhagavad*-gītā says, aratiḥ putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu (BG 13.10). This is philosophy. And if one is attached to his homely happiness, he's not even a man of knowledge. . . . (indistinct) When Vivekananda came back from foreign tours, he brought three women, and one woman was intimately connected with him. . . . (indistinct) You, you have seen yourself. Why there was no men in America? He came back . . . I think he was a brahmacārī throughout. You do not know. There is an old man . . . some old woman, he said about he's connected. Subash Candra Bose . . . (indistinct) Marriage is good. But to keep illicit sex, that's the most sinful activity. Marriage is allowed. Dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi (BG 7.11). That is not against. Great number of luminaries have been produced by Bengal. Last year we read in Times of India more luminaries were produced in Bengal than any other Indian province. No, Bengal . . . they maintained the culture. But therefore I say that Vivekananda broke that Bengali culture. *Bengali culture is fish*-eating. Even Brāhmiṇs eating. No. They are eating fish only. Because Bengal is full of rivers. But not for all. Mass of people, that's a fact. But he introduced, "You can eat anything. It has nothing to do with religion." In Bengal in our childhood we have seen if anyone was habituated to take meat . . . the common man would not. Rich man. The rich men they have their sahis. Sahis you know, who takes care of the horse. So he would cook in the horse shed. And eat there. No. Then he'll bring the . . . (indistinct) . . . and eat it. It was never brought within the precincts of the house. (indistinct) . . . Gujarat and Maharashtra . . . (indistinct) No, no . . . these people who were eating meat, they knew that "I am doing wrong." But Vivekananda approved, "No, it is not wrong." It is wrong. "Whatever you like, you can do." Then they began to eat meat. Fish they were already eating. Meat and chicken and eggs and everything. All the sons of Vallabhācārya's followers are eating. No, everyone is eating. I know that. Therefore our first regulation is you must give it up. Then we talk of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. My son . . . (indistinct) . . . he does not even eat tomatoes, saying that if you . . . (indistinct) Tomato was not taken. No, no. That is what he says: "I won't eat." He does not eat because his mother was 100% vegetarian, and we would not allow even . . . In our childhood no one would eat the tomato. It is not . . . it is red color, but everything vilāti . It is called vilāti baigun . So no one would touch. Tomato? There was prejudice, because it was brought from . . . even potato. Strict Hindu would not take potato. Potato was imported from England. It was not produced . . . just like tulasī. Tulasī plant we have imported, exported. Similarly, so many things . . . They have not allowed tulasī to be grown in America. Oh, no? Who said? Mr. Shaheb . . . (indistinct) . . . tulasī plant for his daughter. No, we have got so many tulasī plants. Every one of our centers has so many tulasīs . *Every temple we have got big, big tulasī . Especially Hawaii we have got six*-feet-high tulasī . I have . . . (indistinct) . . . they won't allow plant. No, no. That is agriculture. You cannot take any plant. Not only tulasī. Any plant from India. You may take away the diseases. Whatever it may be. Not only tulasī plant, any plant you cannot take. You cannot take any vegetables. There is agricultural restriction. But I think tulasī can be grown in all the countries. Even in the cold. In the cold countries with little care. England? Oh, yes. We have got tulasī . You may have to keep it in hothouse during winter. Yes. We make that arrangement. And what Vivekananda said, that "It is better to water eggplant tree. Why tulasī plant? What you will get?" Eggplant tree means you'll get some eggplant, baigun . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . this is his culture. "Make your body strong and stout by eating meat, and there is nothing to do with the . . ." The result will be the same as Gandhi's . . . (indistinct) . . . this slaughterhouse, so abominable and so horrible. When I first came to Bombay from my village and I had to pass through that railway, that nasty butcher house. It was so horrible smelling, and those vultures sitting on the . . . I became spite of myself, when I came in Bombay. I had to join the grammatical college here. You were . . . two thousand years ago, Christ, he was born in Jewish family, he was horrified by seeing animal sacrifices in the synagogue. Therefore his first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." He was so horrified. Why he has given this commandment? He was so much horrified: "What is this?" Therefore he gave up the Jewish religion. He started his own. This is the history. And he, first commandment, "Thou shall not kill." And the Jews were killing the pigeons in the temple. They are very expert in killing. I don't know how the religiosity could even . . . So where is religion? They have misinterpreted religion. *Therefore Bhāgavatam has criticized all so*-called religion. One patient of mine, Sardar Patel, he's a old . . . (indistinct) . . . from Hindus and Muslim. And . . . (indistinct) . . . what they call it, killing of their . . . Muslims are also restricted . . . (break) . . . for some purpose. Therefore they are called karmīs . Actually, it is for satisfying Viṣṇu. Without Viṣṇu's satisfaction nothing can be done. So those who are desiring some material grants, they used to perform this ritualistic ceremonies. It is not for the devotee. For devotee, Kṛṣṇa has said: "I am yajña , and I am also hutam , and I am also performer of yajña ." Yes. Because He gives the intelligence. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). Unless He gives smṛti , he cannot chant the mantra . "Therefore actually I am performer." Ahaṁ kratur ahaṁ yajñaḥ . . . Therefore He says: "I am performer. If I give him instruction, he does something, so he is not doing, I am doing. I say: 'Do like this,' and he does like that, then he's not performer; *I am performer." So whatever mantra they are chanting, if Kṛṣṇa does not give him intelligence, he cannot do that. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). "Everyone, whatever we are doing, it is being supplied, the intelligence, the everything, but according to My desires." So I cannot do anything independently. Just like we are constructing, practically, with the sanction of the Municipality, the sanction of the government. Independently I cannot do. Similarly, we cannot anything without sanction of God. But that sanction is, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). I insist, "God, give me this facility, give me this facility." "All right. You do it at your risk." But God says that, "You don't do this." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). "What I say, you do. Then you'll be happy. What I dictate, you do. But you are dictating Me. Because you are My son, what can I do? All right. Do it." (laughs) "I grant you whatever you . . ." *Yes. This is the position. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasām (BG 7.23). "Because you are rascal, less intelligent, you are doing this, but this will not endure. You'll be a failure. Better what I say, you do. Then you'll be happy." This is the whole instruction. "You cannot do without My sanction. But you are insisting. What can I do? All right. Do it." "I grant you. And take the fruit and realize." *Yes. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He's there. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni (BG 18.61). If you have done, then you must suffer or enjoy. That's all. That is your business. You get . . . "Now you have created a karma . You have to enjoy it by accepting a certain type of body. Now you take it. I ask māyā , 'Give him this body. He wants to eat stool.' 'All right. Give him the body of a hog.' " Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. The yantra , the body, is supplied by māyā under the order. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate (BG 9.10). Everything is there. But these things they do not preach. They preach unnecessarily nonviolence. From Bhagavad-gītā , which is being taught in the battlefield, and Gandhi wants to draw some meaning, nonviolence. Immediately it is . . . what is the value? Not only Gandhi, everyone. If he can give a new interpretation . . . I think in Bombay, was there any Dr. Reilly? He wrote some Bhagavad-gītā commentary as . . . I think it's not that Reilly. Not that Reilly, Dr. Reilly, but there is another Reilly in Baroda who taught . . . Whatever it may be. . . . sanskrit to . . . *No, no. He has interpreted Bhagavad*-gītā , patient and physician. Patient and physician. That may be this Reilly then. He was the dean of one of the medical colleges. *Ah. So he has written that Kṛṣṇa is the physician and Arjuna is the patient. And he has interpreted in that way. There are 645 like that, this, what is called, unauthoritative commentaries, without touching the spirit of Bhagavad*-gītā . *Best commentary is the Bhagavad*-gītā itself. It needs no commentary. It is so simple to understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. And commentary, interpretation, required when you cannot understand. It is very easy to understand. It is very easy, and still these rogues will exploit and mislead people. This is the fact. And perhaps this is the first time I am pointing out. Before that nobody did. And you wrote . . . I have read your commentary twice, and it has become very harsh on those people. *I must be. They are doing wrong thing. They are doing great harm to the . . . they are misleading the people. If I become little more powerful, I shall do it more harshly. I did not show, because I was non*-entity. But I knew it. Now people are taking me little seriously, I am talking. (break) In the beginning I thought, "Who will hear me? Better wait for the time." Therefore I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that, "Now you have got your svarāja . Please come, let us preach Bhagavad-gītā ." You have seen. If he would have given the chance at that time, then long ago this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement would have been started. *He had only anāsakti- yoga . Anāsakti - yoga , Second Chapter, Bhagavad*-gītā . He has expanded his āsakti from his family to the whole nation. That is not anāsakti . Expanded āsakti is not anāsakti . I'm thinking only of my family, and if I think of the whole nation, that does not mean anāsakti . That means āsakti expanded. I am a pickpocket. If I become a great plunderer, that does not mean I am not a thief. You cannot say pickpocket is thief and a great plunderer is a hero. The quality is there. There's that story about Alexander and the thief. Ah, Alexander and the thief. The thief convinced him, "Alexander, what is the difference between you and me? (laughter) I'm a small thief, you are a big thief, that's all." (entering car) I will drive the car for today. All right. No, no, why you . . . (indistinct) . . . young man . . . (break) . . . the world . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- December 31, 1976, Bombay *. . . so glorious. Glorious. He's glorious. That's all right. But kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī will imitate his behavior, but he is not fixed up. Therefore it is not good for him. He is forbidden. This is . . . He's forbidden to hear from a nondevotee. *Yes. They will commit so many mistakes, and they'll take it for granted. Just like this " nitāi*-gaura-rādhe-śyāma ." That is avoided for kaniṣṭha-adhikārī . There are so many mistakes, rasābhāsa . So two things are there always, two sides: one for the mahā-bhāgavata , one for the ordinary kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī . So in the temple it is to be supposed generally for the madhyama-adhikārī and kaniṣṭha-adhikārī especially. So in the temple we should not . . . We should just listen to whatever the ācāryas have . . . Yes. I remember once before, a few years ago, you sent a letter out saying that no one should try to compose songs or . . . *Yes. I do not encourage. What they will compose? They have no realization. But they're speaking something about Kṛṣṇa. That's his beginning. Just like a child, he speaks half*-broken. That is not language. It has no meaning. But still the child, "Ah, ah, you are so nice, you are so nice, you are so nice." Because he's trying to speak something: "Papa, mama." And mama is . . . not that his words are complete. When we go out and preach, and we just repeat or try to repeat whatever we've heard from the spiritual master, but we may not have fully realized what we're speaking about, does that somehow or another reduce the potency of the *Gītā* or the *Bhāgavatam* or . . .? Yes, realization takes time. Therefore there is no question of realization. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says you simply repeat as Kṛṣṇa says. That will save you. Just repeating. *The so*-called political leaders, they have no realization, but they manufacture their ideas. That is dangerous. Mislead themselves and others. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam ( BG 13.8). This is the process of knowledge. These so-called scholars and politicians, they have no ācārya . Instead of being amānitvam , they're mani . . . "I have become a leader, so whatever I shall say, it will be accepted." This is going on. Very bad. It is clearly said, as soon as you give up the ācārya system it is rotten. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa (BG 4.2). So things which is rotten, what you'll get benefit? That is going on. *Therefore in spite of so many Gītā commentators, big, big leaders, scholars, not a single person is converted into a devotee. Not a single person amongst their followers. It's useless talking. Therefore it is forbidden. Avaiṣṇava*-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtam . . . (Padma Purāṇa). Because they are not Vaiṣṇava, politicians and . . . reject them immediately. Immediately. That is the injunction. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are so respectful. People have got . . . now you have got your svarāja . Please take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and let us preach." *Sir, Raj Gopalacharya in his commentary, he has mentioned that Bhagavad*-gītā should be learned through the ācāryas . Yes. As Gopalacharya has commented. He was a Vaiṣṇava. Raj Gopalacharya was sensible man amongst the whole lot. He was a Vaiṣṇava cult. Yes, I know. Chakravarty. So . . . (indistinct) . . . I say that amongst the whole lot he was a sane man, Raj Gopalacharya. Because by culture he's a Vaiṣṇava. (break) . . . agreement with Jawaharlal Nehru. He never was in agreement. Not a single item. He therefore resigned. He wanted to form his own party. Who's that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Raj Gopalacharya. If they had followed Raj Gopalacharya this country would have been far better in knowledge. Raj Gopalacharya. That is because he was paraṁ bhakta , to tell the truth, always. *Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate (SB 5.18.12). Therefore he was qualified. Anyway, if you are interested in Bhagavad*-gītā , how you can misinterpret? How you can put your own words to mislead people? How much misleading this is. *Actually, they're not interested in the Bhagavad*-gītā . I knew all these things, but what I am? I have no position. *But what you have commented is correct. And the Bhagavad*-gītā , real thing is man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Instead they directed their attention to karma and this and that. It was . . . and similar thing . . . But because they did not learn subject matter from ācārya . Ācārya . Yes. Ācārya . One has to learn from the ācārya . Ācārya is one who ācāra , himself practices. *Yes. No. One who knows and practices. Ācinoti śāstra . One who knows the real purpose. And there is no difficulty of understanding the real purpose. It is clearly said, everything. The process of knowledge is given, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 13.8). Where is that? In the beginning, "Oh, I am such a big leader, politician. Whatever I say is nice." Dambha. Dambha . Because he's thinking puffed*-up, falsely. Some rascal fools give them clap. (Prabhupāda claps) They think, "Oh, I have become very great." Nowadays, sir, they collect people to clap them. Huh? Nowadays the politicians collect them. Yes. No. They make such a speech and practice. One political leader, he is young man, he was saying in Hyderabad . . . he was ambassador in . . . that Rao? Yes, Motilal Rao. So he did not know. He said that, "When I was going to be ambassador, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he told me that, "You first of all write a speech and practice it, and deliver it very nicely. Then they will applaud." This is Dr. Radhakrishnan. They want simply applause. That's all. Because they know, "If the public applauds, then I keep my position. I am . . . whatever nonsense I speak or whatever nonsense I . . . it doesn't matter." Public support. Bās. That is their only business. Some of them, they don't even write their own speeches. They have a professional script writer. Yes. Professional writer and some speaker. All of them . . . (indistinct) Even the President of the United States has a speech writer. *Learned scholar, English licensed. We know that Madanmohan Malhotra. And in those days Surendranath Bannerji was a great orator. You have heard his name? Surendranath Bannerji. He is the practically father of Indian nationalism. So he was I.C.S., and in those days English scholar. His father was very big doctor, Dr. Dugdhachandra Bannerji. So his speech, this Madanmohan Malhotra used to rote it, cram, and before a mirror he would speak like this, "Oh . . ." In this way he became a politician. He was smārta*-brāhmaṇa and he became a politician, simply by imitating Surendranath Bannerji's speech. Even those who are with Baroda Maharaja and all Maharaja's speeches were written by . . . (indistinct) . . . so one can . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is thinking "These are your ideas, Maharaja." "Well, everyone knows that I am writing it. It doesn't matter. I won't correct it." All the speeches given by Maharaja of Baroda was written by . . . (indistinct) . . . all, all, practically all. Here's a reference there. And he was a great scholar after all. *Oh, yes. He was English*-born. His father was medical man, Dr. Madanmohan Bannerji. They say he did not know even Bengali properly. *Yes. How he can? He was born in England, educated in England. He was English*-born. Then he became a master in Sanskrit. That is a great, I mean, intelligent . . . That may be. He was a scholar. They were big scholars. He was professor in Baroda University. Professor of French and Philosophy. There is one hall, Aurobindo Hall, in Baroda. All followers of Aurobindo are Bengalis and Gujaratis. Hmm. No, there are others, in foreign countries. He was scholar. *In the āśramas Bengalis and Gujaratis will go fifty*-fifty. There are some South Indians also there . . . (indistinct) . . . "You are from India?" He had a very big following of Gujaratis. Because he was first in Gujarat. Baroda Maharaja, when he, when he did not appear in horse riding test . . . (indistinct) . . . but he did not want to start the competition . . . (indistinct) . . . so he came. So Baroda . . . (indistinct) . . . Maharaja knew he has came. Baroda Maharaja was in England then. He called him, saying . . . (indistinct) . . . the same thing as the Britishers did at Baroda. That is, Baroda Maharaja was appreciated. No, he was a person to be appreciated. There is no doubt. He had so many qualifications. But he was also doing yoga practice. When he was put into . . . no, after getting released from jail, twelve years. He was to be hanged. C. R. Das. Yes. It was said that the man who was judge was his classmate in Cambridge, Oxford, or something like that. Maybe. C. R. Das made a very good speech. I have read all about what he . . . (indistinct) . . . for practicing yoga in jail. When he has himself written when he came to the minister's court. He felt that everywhere was Kṛṣṇa. Everyone was . . . he was seeing Kṛṣṇa everywhere. That was his feeling. So he would not be punished by anybody. But God is everywhere, even . . . (indistinct) . . . his brother was transported to the . . . he was to be hanged, and then he was transported to . . . (indistinct) . . . the Bengalis . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) This is the fact, that yato mata tato patha , whatever path you accept, that is authorized. He said that. Do you think it is bona fide? Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam , and he approves anything. He was a partial political leader also. That's all. He's a political leader. But then he had a great burning desire to see that India be free of British purpose. He was a real nationalist . . . *That even cats and dogs, they also want that, "My cats be well fed and be strong." That is not a very good position. And Bhagavad*-gītā says, aratiḥ putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu (BG 13.10). This is philosophy. And if one is attached to his homely happiness, he's not even a man of knowledge. . . . (indistinct) When Vivekananda came back from foreign tours, he brought three women, and one woman was intimately connected with him. . . . (indistinct) You, you have seen yourself. Why there was no men in America? He came back . . . I think he was a brahmacārī throughout. You do not know. There is an old man . . . some old woman, he said about he's connected. Subash Candra Bose . . . (indistinct) Marriage is good. But to keep illicit sex, that's the most sinful activity. Marriage is allowed. Dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi (BG 7.11). That is not against. Great number of luminaries have been produced by Bengal. Last year we read in Times of India more luminaries were produced in Bengal than any other Indian province. No, Bengal . . . they maintained the culture. But therefore I say that Vivekananda broke that Bengali culture. *Bengali culture is fish*-eating. Even Brāhmiṇs eating. No. They are eating fish only. Because Bengal is full of rivers. But not for all. Mass of people, that's a fact. But he introduced, "You can eat anything. It has nothing to do with religion." In Bengal in our childhood we have seen if anyone was habituated to take meat . . . the common man would not. Rich man. The rich men they have their sahis. Sahis you know, who takes care of the horse. So he would cook in the horse shed. And eat there. No. Then he'll bring the . . . (indistinct) . . . and eat it. It was never brought within the precincts of the house. (indistinct) . . . Gujarat and Maharashtra . . . (indistinct) No, no . . . these people who were eating meat, they knew that "I am doing wrong." But Vivekananda approved, "No, it is not wrong." It is wrong. "Whatever you like, you can do." Then they began to eat meat. Fish they were already eating. Meat and chicken and eggs and everything. All the sons of Vallabhācārya's followers are eating. No, everyone is eating. I know that. Therefore our first regulation is you must give it up. Then we talk of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. My son . . . (indistinct) . . . he does not even eat tomatoes, saying that if you . . . (indistinct) Tomato was not taken. No, no. That is what he says: "I won't eat." He does not eat because his mother was 100% vegetarian, and we would not allow even . . . In our childhood no one would eat the tomato. It is not . . . it is red color, but everything vilāti . It is called vilāti baigun . So no one would touch. Tomato? There was prejudice, because it was brought from . . . even potato. Strict Hindu would not take potato. Potato was imported from England. It was not produced . . . just like tulasī. Tulasī plant we have imported, exported. Similarly, so many things . . . They have not allowed tulasī to be grown in America. Oh, no? Who said? Mr. Shaheb . . . (indistinct) . . . tulasī plant for his daughter. No, we have got so many tulasī plants. Every one of our centers has so many tulasīs . *Every temple we have got big, big tulasī . Especially Hawaii we have got six*-feet-high tulasī . I have . . . (indistinct) . . . they won't allow plant. No, no. That is agriculture. You cannot take any plant. Not only tulasī. Any plant from India. You may take away the diseases. Whatever it may be. Not only tulasī plant, any plant you cannot take. You cannot take any vegetables. There is agricultural restriction. But I think tulasī can be grown in all the countries. Even in the cold. In the cold countries with little care. England? Oh, yes. We have got tulasī . You may have to keep it in hothouse during winter. Yes. We make that arrangement. And what Vivekananda said, that "It is better to water eggplant tree. Why tulasī plant? What you will get?" Eggplant tree means you'll get some eggplant, baigun . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . this is his culture. "Make your body strong and stout by eating meat, and there is nothing to do with the . . ." The result will be the same as Gandhi's . . . (indistinct) . . . this slaughterhouse, so abominable and so horrible. When I first came to Bombay from my village and I had to pass through that railway, that nasty butcher house. It was so horrible smelling, and those vultures sitting on the . . . I became spite of myself, when I came in Bombay. I had to join the grammatical college here. You were . . . two thousand years ago, Christ, he was born in Jewish family, he was horrified by seeing animal sacrifices in the synagogue. Therefore his first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." He was so horrified. Why he has given this commandment? He was so much horrified: "What is this?" Therefore he gave up the Jewish religion. He started his own. This is the history. And he, first commandment, "Thou shall not kill." And the Jews were killing the pigeons in the temple. They are very expert in killing. I don't know how the religiosity could even . . . So where is religion? They have misinterpreted religion. *Therefore Bhāgavatam has criticized all so*-called religion. One patient of mine, Sardar Patel, he's a old . . . (indistinct) . . . from Hindus and Muslim. And . . . (indistinct) . . . what they call it, killing of their . . . Muslims are also restricted . . . (break) . . . for some purpose. Therefore they are called karmīs . Actually, it is for satisfying Viṣṇu. Without Viṣṇu's satisfaction nothing can be done. So those who are desiring some material grants, they used to perform this ritualistic ceremonies. It is not for the devotee. For devotee, Kṛṣṇa has said: "I am yajña , and I am also hutam , and I am also performer of yajña ." Yes. Because He gives the intelligence. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). Unless He gives smṛti , he cannot chant the mantra . "Therefore actually I am performer." Ahaṁ kratur ahaṁ yajñaḥ . . . Therefore He says: "I am performer. If I give him instruction, he does something, so he is not doing, I am doing. I say: 'Do like this,' and he does like that, then he's not performer; *I am performer." So whatever mantra they are chanting, if Kṛṣṇa does not give him intelligence, he cannot do that. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). "Everyone, whatever we are doing, it is being supplied, the intelligence, the everything, but according to My desires." So I cannot do anything independently. Just like we are constructing, practically, with the sanction of the Municipality, the sanction of the government. Independently I cannot do. Similarly, we cannot anything without sanction of God. But that sanction is, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). I insist, "God, give me this facility, give me this facility." "All right. You do it at your risk." But God says that, "You don't do this." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). "What I say, you do. Then you'll be happy. What I dictate, you do. But you are dictating Me. Because you are My son, what can I do? All right. Do it." (laughs) "I grant you whatever you . . ." *Yes. This is the position. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasām (BG 7.23). "Because you are rascal, less intelligent, you are doing this, but this will not endure. You'll be a failure. Better what I say, you do. Then you'll be happy." This is the whole instruction. "You cannot do without My sanction. But you are insisting. What can I do? All right. Do it." "I grant you. And take the fruit and realize." *Yes. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He's there. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni (BG 18.61). If you have done, then you must suffer or enjoy. That's all. That is your business. You get . . . "Now you have created a karma . You have to enjoy it by accepting a certain type of body. Now you take it. I ask māyā , 'Give him this body. He wants to eat stool.' 'All right. Give him the body of a hog.' " Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. The yantra , the body, is supplied by māyā under the order. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate (BG 9.10). Everything is there. But these things they do not preach. They preach unnecessarily nonviolence. From Bhagavad-gītā , which is being taught in the battlefield, and Gandhi wants to draw some meaning, nonviolence. Immediately it is . . . what is the value? Not only Gandhi, everyone. If he can give a new interpretation . . . I think in Bombay, was there any Dr. Reilly? He wrote some Bhagavad-gītā commentary as . . . I think it's not that Reilly. Not that Reilly, Dr. Reilly, but there is another Reilly in Baroda who taught . . . Whatever it may be. . . . sanskrit to . . . *No, no. He has interpreted Bhagavad*-gītā , patient and physician. Patient and physician. That may be this Reilly then. He was the dean of one of the medical colleges. *Ah. So he has written that Kṛṣṇa is the physician and Arjuna is the patient. And he has interpreted in that way. There are 645 like that, this, what is called, unauthoritative commentaries, without touching the spirit of Bhagavad*-gītā . *Best commentary is the Bhagavad*-gītā itself. It needs no commentary. It is so simple to understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. And commentary, interpretation, required when you cannot understand. It is very easy to understand. It is very easy, and still these rogues will exploit and mislead people. This is the fact. And perhaps this is the first time I am pointing out. Before that nobody did. And you wrote . . . I have read your commentary twice, and it has become very harsh on those people. *I must be. They are doing wrong thing. They are doing great harm to the . . . they are misleading the people. If I become little more powerful, I shall do it more harshly. I did not show, because I was non*-entity. But I knew it. Now people are taking me little seriously, I am talking. (break) In the beginning I thought, "Who will hear me? Better wait for the time." Therefore I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that, "Now you have got your svarāja . Please come, let us preach Bhagavad-gītā ." You have seen. If he would have given the chance at that time, then long ago this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement would have been started. *He had only anāsakti- yoga . Anāsakti - yoga , Second Chapter, Bhagavad*-gītā . He has expanded his āsakti from his family to the whole nation. That is not anāsakti . Expanded āsakti is not anāsakti . I'm thinking only of my family, and if I think of the whole nation, that does not mean anāsakti . That means āsakti expanded. I am a pickpocket. If I become a great plunderer, that does not mean I am not a thief. You cannot say pickpocket is thief and a great plunderer is a hero. The quality is there. There's that story about Alexander and the thief. Ah, Alexander and the thief. The thief convinced him, "Alexander, what is the difference between you and me? (laughter) I'm a small thief, you are a big thief, that's all." (entering car) I will drive the car for today. All right. No, no, why you . . . (indistinct) . . . young man . . . (break) . . . the world . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- January 3, 1975, Bombay Devotee: . . . volume two. That was from Jayatīrtha. This is actually the most complete report. Everything else is additional to this. It is very, uh, all the details. "My Dear Śrīla Prabhupāda, Please accept my worthless obeisances at your divine lotus feet. I pray that by your divine mercy I will obtain unquestioning faith in your instructions. It appears from all evidence of the revealed scriptures that it is in this way only my spiritual life will develop and mature. I have been in Hawaii now for one week, and I beg to issue the following report." This is dated December 22nd. "1. The history: I have been aware for some time that Sudāmā was having spiritual difficulties, since in September he had flown to Los Angeles to see me. At that time he was on the verge of blooping due to an illicit homosexual affair with his servant that had been going on for some months. I preached to him and tried to encourage him as much as possible. A few days later . . ." Prabhupāda: Oh, he admitted that, Sudāmā? Devotee: Yeah, Yeah. He also said later that he had admitted that to you. Did he? Prabhupāda: What? He said that . . . Devotee: He had broken a principle. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, like that . . . (indistinct) Devotee: "A few . . ." Prabhupāda: He is conscious of his sinful activities. *Devotee: Yes. "A few days later I flew to Māyāpur to see you in regards to Bali*-mardana, etc., and I had planned to visit Hawaii on the way back to Los Angeles to see how Sudāmā was doing. Unfortunately, Sudāmā was on the U.S. mainland, and when I landed in Hawaii, so I could not talk with him to see if his condition had improved. After returning to Los Angeles I tried to contact him, but he proved to be very elusive. When I finally did get hold of him, he told me that he had just returned from Māyāpur, that everything was all right with him, and that he had admitted his homosexual affair to you and that you had given him permission to work independently of the GBC." Prabhupāda: Just see. Gurukṛpā: He told me that also. Prabhupāda: He, told . . . Gurukṛpā: He came to Japan on his way to Hawaii, and he told me that. Prabhupāda: He . . . he came to Māyāpur for this reason. Gurukṛpā: He said that you had told him that, he only had . . . Prabhupāda: He can say anything. How do you believe it? Gurukṛpā: It wasn't my concern, because I was only in Japan. Prabhupāda: And how others will believe it? He'll say that he has supported my homosex and . . . Devotee: He can say anything. Prabhupāda: Rascal. Rascal. Once one becomes rascal, he becomes more and more and more and more and more. So I have no information whether he admitted or not. He simply tendered that it is not yet finished, prepared, so if you come then I will have to arrange like this. No other place. You were present there? Devotee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That means he told his plan, to come here, that "I have taken permission." Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: Go on. Devotee: "This concerned me a great deal, and I discussed the matter with Tamāla . . ." Prabhupāda: This is completely false. Rather, I told Brahmānanda that that cannot be. He cannot act independently. There is no question. Devotee: "This concerned me a great deal, and I discussed the matter with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, Jagadīśa and Hṛdayānanda dāsa." Prabhupāda: But how this is . . . this is another nonsense. How did you believe him? He came to me, and he reported in his own way, and why you became so foolish that to believe him? Where is my written statement? Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: He, he will tell according to his convenience, but how did he believe it? Without asking me, and without my confirmation, now they began to consult Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. Their first foolishness is "How did he believe him?" Ask him like that, that "How did you ?" You did not ask me whether it is fact; now you are reporting, and you began to consult amongst yourselves. Gurukṛpā: This is in September. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Yes in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. He had no intelligence that he said whether it is fact. He should have asked me, that "Sudāmā has told me like this," and whether it is fact. So without asking me they began to consult. What is the meaning? Gurukṛpā: So they consulted. They discussed the matter between themselves, and concluded . . . Prabhupāda: What is the matter? There is no subject matter they consulted. Just see, this kind of intelligent . . . unintelligent class of men we have in our society. How these things are remain . . . (indistinct) . . . they have no intelligence. So now we are discussing on the subject matter whether it is a subject matter to be discussed. They have no sense of . . . how I can manage? He came; he came; he came—spoiling money. What can I do? How did he take the subject matter to be discussed? Where is the subject matter? Ask him: without asking me, how you took it as a subject matter for discussion. You know that he has gone astray, you can say so many lies, and I would support it, homosex. Gurukṛpā: Much of this could have been avoided if he would have . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: This could have been avoided . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: . . . all this stealing and mismanagement, if he would have been stopped in September, when he first announced. Prabhupāda: How can I know? Gurukṛpā: You did not . . . Prabhupāda: The GBC was there. He was GBC! Nobody informed me what is going on. Devotee: Jayatīrtha says he knew. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Jayatīrtha said that he knew he was in difficulty, but he tried to stop and see him, but he was being elusive. He was . . . he stopped at Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: He was elusive to him, and what he said about seeing me, that was correct. Just see! He knew that he is elusive, and still, whatever he said, that "I am sinful. What Swami has said, like this, I do." That is not elusive. That is corrupt. This class of intelligence, how they can manage? They have no common sense, then how can I believe this rascal? I have taken him as elusive. Then, how can I take him that whatever he says is all right? And now, let us consult. Just see! It is very difficult. Where is the subject matter now they began to consult? What do you think? Gurukṛpā: I think he should have informed you. Prabhupāda: At least it should have been confirmed that, yes, he, "Oh, I said like this." Devotee (3): It should have been in writing. Without it in writing . . . Gurukṛpā: Last year when I received one letter from Karāndhara, I came to you and asked you, "Did you write that?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: Because I was doubting. And it was a fact that he had put in some of his own words there. Prabhupāda: That is what I say, "Consult." Gurukṛpā: Well, they said they consulted, and we concluded that since you were going to come here in December that we would leave things until you arrived. Prabhupāda: So everything else, what did you do when you asked him? Did Sudāmā say like this? Devotee: That was two months . . . that was September, and he said that since you were coming in December then we will leave it. "So we suggested to Sudāmā that Kīrtanānanda Swami be allowed to come to Hawaii to see how things were going and to enliven the devotees, but Sudāmā . . ." *Prabhupāda: Therefore I said to Brahmānanda that I cannot go on this Bombay after, you go. Things are not going nice there. And Brahmānanda was advised . . . I think too that we consulted that Guru*-kṛpā should be in charge. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: You know that? Gurukṛpā: That was . . . Prabhupāda: That was my advice. Then? Devotee: "Sudāmā was adamant that no GBC man should come." Prabhupāda: Ha. Devotee: "After receiving Brahmānanda Swami's telegram saying that still Sudāmā did not want you to come, I called Sudāmā and demanded an explanation. He claims that actually he did not . . . he did want you to come, but he was short of funds. I promised to help with the funds, and he seemed satisfied. I then telegrammed Your Divine Grace that it was all right to come. Two days later, Sudāmā called me in Portland and told me he was resigning the next day, and that I should come immediately. I also received a call from one of the older brahmacārīs here, saying that the situation was very bad and all the temple leaders had resigned, including Sudāmā and Subala dāsa . . . or Subala Swami, and that they were actively preaching to influence the devotees to move out of the temple and live independently. After hearing this, I immediately came and also invited Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja, who was in Los Angeles at the time, to come. Upon arrival we immediately began to preach very strongly about the necessities of strictly following the instructions of the spiritual master. Those who are very sincere have stayed on, but about a dozen devotees left with Sudāmā. They are operating the restaurant that was given to the society by Alfred Ford after having arranged legally to have the ownership transferred into their names." Prabhupāda: How Alfred was induced to transfer in their names? Devotee: Well, he explains that a little bit later, because I think there is this one boy named Atulānanda, who is Sudāmās closest friend, one of his closest friends. And he is actually the person who is an old friend of Alfred Ford's since childhood. And I think he is the one who has been doing all the negotiations. Prabhupāda: So . . . a man becomes confidential devotee because there is something cheap. How such things can become. Then? *Devotee: "Number 2. What they are preaching: I cannot claim to fully understand what they are preaching, but I will try to explain it as best I can. First of all, they are outspokenly against ISKCON's leadership and are outspokenly against our tactics on saṅkīrtana book distribution as well as what they claim are deplorable conditions in the temples. They agree that the basic principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as taught by you, are the first*-class method, but that it is too much difficult to be followed by people in the West. Therefore they think that since it is too difficult to follow strictly, that they should move out of the temple, get a job, etc. One of them, Jamadagni dāsa, who is their leader, told one of our brahmacāriṇīs , "If you are having a hard time in the temple you should move outside, get a boyfriend, go to the movies, etc." *Prabhupāda: The thing is, now this attitude is . . . Bali*-mardana is also like this. They want relaxation, flexibility. Devotee: Flexibility. Prabhupāda: That means that spiritually fallen, fallen down. Then what else? Devotee: "The most disturbing thing they are saying is that Your Grace is perfect spiritually but not materially; that is to say that you know Kṛṣṇa . . ." Prabhupāda: (laughs) That "perfect spiritually" means the materially rejected. Devotee: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: "That is to say that you know Kṛṣṇa, but that you may not know how best to engage each person, that you can't see everyone in all places and time, and that therefore so many discrepancies exist within the ISKCON structure; that the structure and its leadership cannot be at all trusted, and that it therefore provides no shelter. Of course, they still claim to be your disciples, but they admit they cannot follow your instructions." Prabhupāda: What kind of disciples? They accept, "You are spiritual master," but "I cannot follow your instructions." That means this GBC's failure. I wanted the GBC. They are themselves fallen, victim. Not very well carried out. This GBC was meant for vigilance, that every, everything is going on nicely according to the instruction. They themselves . . . Karāndhara? Then? Devotee: "Sudāmā, for example, is planning on starting a dance troupe. When asked what he would do if Your Divine Grace asked him to do something else instead, he said: "I would have to do it anyway." In summary, it seems to me at least that they are minimizing the value of the spiritual master's instructions and at the same time, when we attack them on that same point, they deny it and claim rather that we're just fanatics, impersonal, etc. Actually we have tried to be nice to them, but at the same time we have tried to keep the philosophical points clear so that the devotees will not become bewildered." Prabhupāda: Hm. Then? *Devotee: "Number 3. The land situation: Of course we are living on the land, and the Deities are installed. We have been making your quarters ready, and I hope that you will be pleased with them. The land has been completely paid off by Alfred Ford, and he will also pay all property taxes. He had offered to lease us the land for a dollar per year and at the same time to turn over one*-third ownership yearly to ISKCON until it was completely in our name." Prabhupāda: Let it . . . let it be done in writing. Devotee: Yes, he, he . . . I'll just go on reading. He requests that, "He had to do this rather than give it outright for tax reasons. The problem is that Alfred Ford's main contact with ISKCON has been through Atulānanda dāsa, Alfred's lifetime friend. But now Atulānanda has gone with Sudāmā, and Sudāmā has told me that you do not want the property in ISKCON's name." Prabhupāda: Just see. Whatever he says, it is all right. Then what, who's next? Devotee: Well, he is . . . "Sudāmā also reports that Alfred is not pleased with ISKCON, does not trust ISKCON, etc. Also on several occasions they have made veiled threats, like "We can have you all thrown off the property in a minute." " Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: They are saying, Sudāmā and his men are saying to the devotees, "We can have you all thrown off this property in a minute." Because they have the connection with Alfred Ford. Prabhupāda: Ha. So he . . . he is creating some impression of ISKCON. That was his policy, so that the property can be given in his name as he has taken the restaurant. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: That was his plan, therefore he did not like that I should go there. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: That I understand. Or any GBC go there. That is the whole plan. Devotee: He goes on to say that, "At any rate it seems difficult to put too much into developing the property unless we have some assurance one way or another that Alfred Ford will not ask us to leave. The land is the absolute manifestation of paradise, so it would be very nice if it could be kept." Prabhupāda: So, write one letter to Alfred that this is the position. Or? Shall I write to him or not? Gurukṛpā: If you don't write to him, then it will only be Sudāmā's speaking with him. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: He may . . . he may get them to change it over, very easily. Prabhupāda: Huh? He is doing that? Gurukṛpā: If you don't write to him, then Sudāmā will be the only one that will influence him. Prabhupāda: You write to him, that "Sudāmā has left our camp; he has nothing to do with ISKCON. He has nothing to be recognized. He has his own plan. So under the circumstances I want to see you." What shall I write? He, he may poisioned? Devotee: It looks as if they have already poisoned him some, because according to Sudāmā he doesn't trust ISKCON. He doesn't . . . he is not pleased with ISKCON. Prabhupāda: So. Devotee: But I think that he is definitely submissive to yourself. Prabhupāda: So I can . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: This sex, this illicit sex, how is killing him. Illicit sex is so dangerous. He's a good boy. Similarly, Gaurasundara is killed by this illicit sex. Everyone will be killed with the illicit sex. That is the difficulty—falldown. What can I do? I have already given instruction. If they do not follow, they fall down. That is sure. So dangerous. And in our society it is very easy to have affair, so many girls are there. I can say "Don't do this," but if you do, what can I do? So, what you have written, Alfred? Devotee: "Sudāmā has left our camp. He has his own plans, so under the circumstances . . ." Prabhupāda: Ahah, "He has his own camp, and he has violated our rules and regulations and fallen down. Under the circumstances don't be influenced by him, unless you see me." Is that all right? Gurukṛpā: Unless he sees you? Prabhupāda: Yes. So "I am coming very soon in Hawaii. I am very much busy in Bombay for some business" . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is this. Karāndhara has done some . . . I trusted so much. How you can . . .? This is the poison, illicit sex, and this poison will kill everything. This is the poison. And I cannot understand whether I shall be able to save my disciples from this poison. This is the poison. They do not take it seriously, but in the beginning I said, "No illicit sex." If you want . . . (indistinct) . . . these four principles, if they are not strictly followed, then he's victimized forever—today or tomorrow. He should take little time, of his time, to save himself. Artificially, that will not save him; *he will fall down. Kṛṣṇa can excuse for some time, but it is not . . . (indistinct) . . . Api cet su*-durācāro ( BG 9.30). If unconsciously, or if you have some accidentally falldown, that is excused. But purposefully—it is all rascaldom. Bali-mardana fell. Karāndhara fell. Sudāmā fell. And gradually they are falling down. What can I do? I say that you shall remain fixed up in this way, but if you do not accept it, then how can I help you? If I say that "Don't dry your knife on your neck," and if you do it, so how can I save you? Gurukṛpā: I think that there is no saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: They get too much business and no saṅkīrtana , then they forget. Prabhupāda: Well, why too much business? Who . . . (indistinct) . . . business? Gurukṛpā: That is the case of all the devotees that have fallen. They have stopped doing saṅkīrtana and just strictly business. And then they forget. I know myself, if I don't do some saṅkīrtana every day, I usually become agitated. But if I can do two . . . Prabhupāda: That is also advised. But if you do not do it, then sixteen rounds first be done. This is not saṅkīrtana ? Gurukṛpā: Myself, I need more than . . . Prabhupāda: More than anyone. This is the . . . every letter, every time it is stressed that "You must finish sixteen rounds." Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is real saṅkīrtana —at least sixteen rounds. But if you do not follow, then how can you be saved? Saved without saṅkīrtana —for this is stressed in every letter. Gurukṛpā: Yes, you stress, but they do not do. Prabhupāda: Then if they do not follow the instruction of the spiritual master, then how you can be saved? You are fallen; I say "Catch this rope. I'll take you, take you out." But if you do not catch? Then? What is next? Devotee: Well, the next report is the restaurant. "The restaurant was purchased with a $12,000 donation from Alfred Ford and was fixed up with a $2000 loan from Peter Burwash, a local Life Member. Last month, Sudāmā arranged legally to have the restaurant transferred into the joint ownership of Sudāmā, Taruṇa Kānti, Atulānanda and Peter Burwash. Sudāmās claim was that Alfred Ford had meant the $12,000 as a loan and not as a donation, and that he did not trust that ISKCON would ever pay it back, but apparently that he did trust that Sudāmā would pay it back. Sudāmā also managed to transfer ownership of several of the temple vehicles to his name, and in addition he took with him . . . " Prabhupāda: Why not take criminal charges against him? Prosecute him. So that would be another trouble. That is also not advisable, eh? Gurukṛpā: Very difficult. Prabhupāda: That is difficult . . . (indistinct) . . . that every member is trustworthy for money, everything, and if you . . . Devotee: He says . . . Prabhupāda: Pālikā, she has not come? Pālikā? Gurukṛpā: She is here. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: She is here. Prabhupāda: Where? I called. (rings a bell) So, you have begun cooking? Pālikā: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, I wanted ordinary rice . . . (indistinct) . . . khichuri . Pālikā: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so what, what is the use of hearing? (aside) I changed my mind, next time. He has plan. What is the plan? Then? You read? Have you read the whole thing? Devotee: No, there is a little bit more. "He says that he took the large bus which was being used for traveling saṅkīrtana . He plans to sell this bus, which is worth about $6000 or $7000, and invest the proceeds in getting his thing together. He claims that the bus was purchased with a personal donation from Alfred Ford. But I have been unable to either prove or disprove that statement. But at any rate it seems as that they're using Alfred Ford's devotion to you for their own personal benefit." Prabhupāda: Therefore it must go. A letter must go immediately. *Devotee: We will send a letter today. "5. The temple financial situation: Sudāmā has left us about $30,000 in debt, and with no substantial assets. We have one broken*-down 1960 Volkswagen, one broken-down truck, and not a penny in the bank. The saṅkīrtana party was practically nonexistent. Daily collections were under $50, and only two or three men were going out for a couple of hours per day. They had been preaching to the book distributors that what they were doing was . . ." Prabhupāda: One thing is, that why they are reporting? Why . . . what steps they have taken? The GBC's main policy, simply reporting to me vague reports? Gurukṛpā: They suggested that I should go and pay the bill. Prabhupāda: Yes, you should go immediately. We know the situation, and do if, if proper, and possible take criminal . . . (indistinct) Gurukṛpā: Yeah, but the $30,000, that money, he expects me to collect that money and pay that, which is your money. Because I have the money for Māyāpur. Instead of giving to Māyāpur, we pay these bills. Devotee: So this, this is the basic report, but then these other letters go into the . . . see, this is Jayatīrtha before he has even seen Brahmānanda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: This is before Brahmānanda has arrived. Prabhupāda: So what I shall do by hearing the report? GBC allow them to do whatever they like. No restriction; there is no inspection. There is only . . . What is the use of GBC? He was doing all these things planned, and the GBC could not understand? So what can I do? . . . (indistinct) . . . huh? So go and . . . He is such a traitorous boy, no respect. One traitor is . . . Gaurasundara was not so much traitor. He is a gross traitorous. Gaurasundara, he took money, he sent some money to our . . . (indistinct) . . . but he paid everything. He has taken all the money from Gaurasundara; he is a great traitorous. So what you think, what is to be done now? Gurukṛpā: Well, the only thing to do is that if Alfred Ford wants the land back, then we will have to find another place and simply pick up from where we left off. Prabhupāda: No. Alfred, unless he is poisoned, he is not bewildered. Gurukṛpā: No, but if he doesn't want it, we can remain there . . . Prabhupāda: Ha. Gurukṛpā: . . . and have the plans for the temple, and if he does want it then we have to move. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: But in the meantime, the devotees . . . Prabhupāda: That means he may not be poisoned. So I'll have to go. In the meantime, you go. Where . . . when is your ultimate time? Gurukṛpā: I am leaving tomorrow at 6 o'clock. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gurukṛpā: In the morning. Prabhupāda: What other points? *Devotee: Well that was just about it, other than the financial situation is very bad, and he says the only place they can do book distribution there is on Waikiki Beach. And there is already about half a dozen semi*-blooped devotees doing saṅkīrtana there to maintain themselves, including Bali-mardana's wife. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: Well, but they say that the saṅkīrtana there is very difficult. The only place that they can do it is Waikiki Beach. Gurukṛpā: I think that is a fact. Prabhupāda: Huh. Gurukṛpā: It is not a good place for collecting, at all. It is very . . . the rich people, they have shopping places, but the police are very, very . . . Because they are rich, and this is the only place, and that is not so good. Devotee: But he says anyway . . . Gurukṛpā: Sudāmā used to have his . . . some men in America sending him money. They would stay on the mainland and do saṅkīrtana and sent the money back to Hawaii. He was doing that. Devotee: But he seems to think that . . . he says that, "At any rate I am confident that we will be able to maintain the temple and extinguish the debt." Gurukṛpā: How is that? Devotee: I don't know. Gurukṛpā: $30,000? Devotee: It doesn't make sense. Prabhupāda: Then, what else? *Devotee: So that . . . he says that . . . number 6 is new management. "I have brought one of the best men in my zone here to help manage affairs. His name is Ānandavardhana dāsa adhikārī . He is intelligent, regulated and sincere and has good experience in management of our Denver temple. Denver has been by far the best*-managed temple in the western zone, as I have several times reported to you, and Ānandavardhana , as the number-two man there, was very instrumental in bringing it up to that standard. In addition, I am bringing Mahātmā dāsa from Vancouver, former president, to act as number-two man. He is also very enthusiastic and intelligent and is a very good book distributor. *I feel confident that between the two of them the management of this temple will go on well. I know from Bhagavān that Your Divine Grace has suggested that perhaps Guru*-kṛpā Swami could come here. My personal feeling is that it might be valuable for him to come here for some time and preach, but that they would probably not want to stay on permanently to maintain the center. Also, saṅkīrtana could never be as lucrative as Tokyo, and this important source of revenue for the Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Trust would be stopped. Of course, if Your Divine Grace decides that they should definitely come, I will work with them very happily. I personally have great respect for them, and I feel them to be very well qualified." Prabhupāda: That is all right . . . (indistinct) . . . so now, what you think we should do? Gurukṛpā: We can go . . . Prabhupāda: And help them for some time. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then? Gurukṛpā: But the quest . . . quest . . . Prabhupāda: You know that the collection is not possible there. Gurukṛpā: Yes, not much. Prabhupāda: So let them do that; you can go to South America. *Gurukṛpā: So Hṛdayānanda should be written a letter and asked to co*-operate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then what else? *Devotee: "Number 7 is Danger to the Society. I'm a little bit worried about this turn of events, because it appears to my mundane vision that it may pre*-stage an actual philosophical division amongst your disciples. In reading your Caitanya-caritāmṛta Chapter Twelve in reference to the followers of Advaita Ācārya and how some followers gradually developed their own opinion of devotional service, which was different from the instructions of their guru , but still claim to be followers, I think that I have perceived some parallels in the present situation. At the same time it appears that things are ripe for such a split, especially after so many signs of corruption amongst the society's leaders have recently come to light, thus providing a good excuse for those who want to work outside the authority structure of the society to do so. I am actually fearful that this anti-ISKCON party feeling may spread widely in the society, although I realize that the best defense to this would be to send . . ." Prabhupāda: We simply counteract if we remain sincere and follow the spiritual master, nobody can harm you. But if you are not so strong, then there will be trouble. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: But if you stick to your position, as I have advised, then you will be successful. *Gurukṛpā: This was like Siddha*-svarūpa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: It just kind of fell apart after a while. Prabhupāda: He could not be able to do. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: Gaurasundara . . . they are all localized. That is not . . . if we stick to our principles, then it will be all right. Devotee: Hm. Then he has one request at the end. "Your Divine Grace has for several years spent most of the time in India. At the same time, so much nonsense has happened in the society. So many big leaders have fallen down, etc. Of course, at the same time so many aspects of our movement have progressed nicely. I think, however, that your presence in the West will counteract all of this bad influence. I sincerely think, therefore, that if you can come and stay in Hawaii for a good part of the next year, that all of the poison in the society will be removed." Prabhupāda: So I'm going. I'm going. You go. I shall remain in South America and you shall do the needful, that is all. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: I'm going. So I am simply waiting. I have arranged for visiting the governor for this purpose. But that is also a big clique. The secretaries, they are not arranging the meeting. This is the position everywhere. Then? Devotee: He says that if you come . . . Prabhupāda: That is, that is the remedy. So I shall have to go to Hawaii immediately, as soon as possible. If you go, I will try to go. Gurukṛpā: Should I . . . Prabhupāda: Simply I'm waiting for this governor's meeting. As soon as it is done, I shall go. Gurukṛpā: Should I go to Tokyo and wait for you there, and then go with you to Hawaii, or should I go all the way to Hawaii? There are some things that I have to settle up in Tokyo. Prabhupāda: More settle around you, then go. Gurukṛpā: I should wait for you in Tokyo? Prabhupāda: That I shall let you know this evening. Gurukṛpā: Okay. Or you can just pass Tokyo up? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: Because I will . . . Prabhupāda: I will have to pass, because I cannot go directly to Hawaii. Gurukṛpā: But I am saying that you cannot get off the plane. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: My plan is . . . is to remove the most of the men from Tokyo now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: Because New Year is the cold season, and they can go to Hawaii. And if you stop in Tokyo, there will be only two or three people there. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Better that I stop for one night or one day. Gurukṛpā: Okay. Prabhupāda: Let me know when you have booked it. Devotee: They have daily flights between Hong Kong and Tokyo and Tokyo and Honolulu. Prabhupāda: Ha. Devotee: So one night. Prabhupāda: So that definitely. I shall let you know this evening what is the position. So? So what is there more? Devotee: One point that comes out here is that this was dated December 22nd. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Devotee: And he says that he is fearing this, that Alfred Ford might be poisoned, and it may be happening right now. So probably the sooner that Guru*-kṛpa Mahārāja goes there . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Also, where is Alfred? Devotee: Even if we write a letter, it may be too much time . . . Prabhupāda: So you can take my letter and see that he is coming . . . (indistinct) Gurukṛpā: Where is Alfred Ford? Devotee: Well the last time he wrote us, he was in Wyoming. He lives in Wyoming, but he was going to meet you there in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee: So he may be there, because they are expecting Prabhupāda. Gurukṛpā: Not now. Devotee: No, they are expecting. Gurukṛpā: Not now. Devotee: Really. Gurukṛpā: You . . . I was in Tokyo . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurukṛpā: . . . and when Brahmānanda came, he said that you were . . . did not even coming this to Hawaii or Tokyo, that you were going to Australia. Prabhupāda: No, but that Australia, er . . . no. Australia, I was to go from Hawaii. Gurukṛpā: But he did not say that. Prabhupāda: No. Gurukṛpā: He did not tell me that. Prabhupāda: That was our plan. Oh, yes. Devotee: Yeah, our plan was to go to Australia. Prabhupāda: Directly Australia. So that plan has changed. Gurukṛpā: Yes. So they do not have any idea that you are coming. Devotee: Well, we wrote one letter afterwards to Jayatīrtha saying . . . Prabhupāda said that "I may be coming in two weeks." That was about two weeks ago. Prabhupāda: So arrange like that. What . . . *Devotee: So we'll send a letter with Guru*-kṛpā. So that was the 22nd. Now the next day Brahmānanda Swami came, that was the 23rd that he came. And then he writes . . . all the major background is here, so he just gives his basic . . . Prabhupāda: That is all right. What is the use of? That is the background. Devotee: Yeah, then this is . . . Prabhupāda: He repeats. Devotee: No, no. He gives the . . . after studying the situation and also all the background that was already presented, he gives his . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that? Devotee: "After studying the situation in Hawaii we have one major concern: that is that this property is currently held in the name of Alfred Ford, and Alfred has told . . . has been told by Sudāmā that Your Divine Grace does not want it placed in the society's name. Furthermore, because Atulānanda dāsa is Alfred's closest friend within the society and now Atulānanda . . ." Gurukṛpā: He told me that, when he came to Japan. He said that you did not want that property. Devotee: Brahmānanda said that? Gurukṛpā: No, Sudāmā said. Prabhupāda: So he can say so many things; why you rascals believe it? That is my point. Gurukṛpā: Well I didn't . . . it wasn't my business. Prabhupāda: Everyone is quoting "Sudāmā said" and why do you pay attention? Gurukṛpā: He was telling . . . Jayatīrtha is the GBC. He also told him. Prabhupāda: Well where is my name in writing? Devotee: Something that important has to be in writing. Prabhupāda: Just see, he is telling, telling, telling, telling. Why one should believe so confidently Sudāmā? Neglecting me and asking me. So what can I do? Sudāmā is speaking my name so many rascal things, but why other rascal will believe him? Eh? Then what can I do? Gurukṛpā: Awesome. Prabhupāda: That . . . what is that he suggest? Devotee: Well, it seems . . . it seems that the property . . . He says it seems that the property should be secured legally before plans for developing it. Prabhupāda: Should be? Why don't you do it? Why don't you meet him? Devotee: Well he next suggests that originally that plan was that every year he would donate one third. Prabhupāda: Ah, ah, that is all right. Devotee: He says, "At the end of the three years the society would own the land outright." Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee: He cannot give it all at once because . . . Prabhupāda: So why don't you do it? What is the use of writing me? Devotee: Oh, here it is. He says, "Our suggestion, therefore, if it pleases Your Divine Grace, is that Your Divine Grace may issue one letter to Alfred asking him to please carry out his original plans to put the land in the society's name." Prabhupāda: And let him. Devotee: In other words they . . . it seems like they cannot do anything from their end. It is either this boy Atulānanda and Sudāmā influencing him . . . Prabhupāda: But how Alfred will be so foolish that he has decided to see three years, and how Sudāmā will induce him to do it immediately in his name? Devotee: No, I don't think he means immediately, but . . . the same program, only turning it over to Arnie, or the other . . . Atulānanda's name. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: It appears that not that he is going to give it outright. He can't do that, because of tax reasons, but he would do the same thing one third per year to Atulānanda instead of ISKCON. Prabhupāda: If he gives this property, what can I do? Devotee: That's the danger. He . . . Brahmānanda says that "He seems to be very devoted to you, and that we feel that he would definitely respond to your request." If you tell him not to . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That I am writing. Devotee: Yeah, so this . . . Prabhupāda: So write that letter very nicely and send it. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: And what else? *Devotee: Ah, he just reports that Guru*-kṛpā has agreed to take responsibility to finance the construction. *Prabhupāda: So there everyone is ready. Now, Guru*-kṛpā, do you think that he will be able to manage very first-class? How he worked for some time . . . (indistinct) Gurukṛpā: I will go. The thing is this . . . Prabhupāda: What else? Gurukṛpā: The two men that Jayatīrtha has sent, I know one of those, Mahātmā. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurukṛpā: He is a good man. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurukṛpā: He can be president. But after the difficulty is straightened out . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, all right. Gurukṛpā: . . . he would keep things going. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then anything else? Devotee: Well, he just gives a report on Sudāmā and Subala. He says that, "He gave them your message that they should go out and preach like Viṣṇujana and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, and he said that presently they are unwilling to give up their craziness to go and preach as you have requested them to do. Subala is growing a beard on his face and is working as a busboy in a restaurant. And the rest of his time is spent in stringing seashells to sell as necklaces." Prabhupāda: He is growing beard? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Then anything else? *Devotee: Hm, he suggests that Guru*-kṛpā also take responsibility for Hong Kong. *Prabhupāda: That Guru*-kṛpā will take whatever I say. That is not difficult. Devotee: And he also suggests that Citsukānanda could go to Hong Kong. (break) . . . manage there. He says that he could work very nicely with those people. Prabhupāda: Citsukānanda is not sticking to any one place. Gurukṛpā: No, he is very timid. He is very back and forth. He changes his mind . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gurukṛpā: . . . every two minutes. He's a good man if he is . . . (break) Devotee: . . . letter. He wrote a letter on the next day. So here he says that he has received a report. Ah, they have been trying to preach to these devotees that left with Subala and Sudāmā. Brahmānanda says he was preaching to them, and he says he is clearing up some of the misconceptions, and already two of them have come back. And they say that, that group, that other group Subala and Sudāmā and the others, are breaking all the principles. He says they're taking drugs and having illicit sex and everything. So Brahmānanda . . . Prabhupāda: That is the disease. They are now sexually desiring. Everyone is desiring, one who cannot control. Then they will break all the regulative principles. Everything will be happening. What can I do? Even they will not stick married life. Gurukṛpā: Hm. Prabhupāda: They are accustomed to break this law. It is very difficult for them. Their fathers, they have done so also—every three, every year thrice divorced, twice. This is the issue . . . (indistinct) . . . what can I do? I have given the formula. They are doing, so long they are doing. Devotee: Apparently, Brahmānanda still, when he wrote these letters, he didn't know that Australia was canceled. Prabhupāda: Oh, now he has to know? Devotee: He must know now, because the letter was sent. Our letter (break) . . . Guru dāsa, nothing really, though, just . . . he says that Jayatīrtha is immediately telling Guru dāsa to go to Vṛndāvana. He should go there without delay. Prabhupāda: Where? Devotee: I don't know where he got that, where. It doesn't say. And he says that Baradrāj is doing very well in LA. He has ten assistants making dolls, and Revatīnananda Swami is there doing college engagements. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles? *Devotee: Ah, I don't think so. I think he is in Laguna Beach. "Bali*-mardana is here in Honolulu, and I will try and contact him and request him to come with me to Australia at the end of the month to join you. He is with his wife. Subala Swami came here to the Sunday feast, but before I could speak with him he left. He looks terrible. I do not know what the Fiji situation is." (aside) Who? Prabhupāda: This Sudama. Ah yes. Subala. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: He fights. Gurukṛpā: Always. Prabhupāda: He will not be able to stay with Sudāmā. They will fight. Devotee: No, actually Sudāmā, when he was here in Māyāpur, he said that he and Subala got in some very extreme fights. Prabhupāda: Then? Gurukṛpā: Subala, he fights with everyone. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: Subala fights with everyone. Prabhupāda: Ah, everyone. He cannot remain there. He is most unscrupulous. Devotee: He will have to have his own movement, with only him. (laughs) (break) Gurukṛpā: Also, he is there in Tokyo still, and I suggested to him . . . I was talking yesterday to Tokyo. That you suggested that he should go to Spain and work with Bhagavān. And for . . . I don't know, but for some reason he did not readily take the idea. Prabhupāda: He wants to work independently. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: He doesn't want to be supervised by anyone. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . and our whole program is surrender. And these Western boy, they do not want to surrender to anyone. Is it not? Devotee: It is true. Prabhupāda: There is no question of surrender. They have surrendered (laughs) to some extent to me; that is wonderful. Otherwise there is no question of surrender. And our business is surrender. Unless you surrender fully, there is no progress . . . (indistinct) . . . anyway, let us pray to Kṛṣṇa. So any other important details? *Devotee: Well the latest, this is the latest letter from Brahmānanda on the 27th, when he met Bali*-mardana. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee: He said, "He came to the temple and we had a talk. His present plans are to get some hotel training for the next few months and then go to Japan." Prabhupāda: Hotel training? Devotee: Hotel training don't understand that. Prabhupāda: What is that? He wants to open a hotel? Gurukṛpā: Not in Japan. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: It is too expensive there. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurukṛpā: You must be a millionaire to open anything there, it is so costly. Prabhupāda: Maybe he is millionaire mahārāja. Devotee: Mahārāja. (laughs) Gurukṛpā: Their millions are useless to us. He is not giving them. *Prabhupāda: No, he is . . . (indistinct) . . . I know Bali*-mardana is . . . (indistinct) . . . He has given. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Whenever I wanted money, he has given. Never mind wherefrom he has got, but he gives. Actually he helps purchasing land. Devotee: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: Recently when he came, he gave me 120,000. Devotee: Twenty thousand. Prabhupāda: Twenty thousand, yes. I do not know where from. (laughs) That I cannot say. Therefore I say that he is a good soul. He has been polluted by the wife. The same: sex. And his wife is very, very intelligent; she knows how to earn money. Extraordinarily intelligent, and she knows how to earn money. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: If she likes she can independently earn money, many thousands. That also I know. So if that can be corrected, they can be utilized at this stage; there is no question of rejection. They are able to do something. Aiye . (end) Conversation with Children -- January 26, 1975, Hong Kong Prabhupāda: Try to answer, children? Do you know what is Kṛṣṇa? Who can say? You say something about Kṛṣṇa? Girl: The Supreme Personality of Godhead. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So, what does He do? Tell something about Kṛṣṇa. You have read Kṛṣṇa book? Huh? Boy: He was given many names. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Many names everyone has got. But what is the difference between your many names and Kṛṣṇa's many names? Just like your father calls you by some name and mother calls you by some name; friends calls you. So you have got also many names. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa has also many names. But what is the between . . . what is the difference between your name and Kṛṣṇa's name? Can anyone say? Girl: Each of Kṛṣṇa's names has a meaning behind it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Girl: Each of Kṛṣṇa's names has a meaning behind it. Prabhupāda: Every name has got some meaning. That is not . . . the difference is that Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name, the same thing. Just like if you want water, if you simply say, "water, water, water," that substance, water, is not there. Try to understand this. The water, liquid substance, that is different from the name water. Anything you take. Just like here is rose. So if you simply chant, "rose, rose, rose," there is no rose. Rose is different from the name rose. Similarly, in the material world anything you take, the name is different from the substance, whereas in case of Kṛṣṇa, the name Kṛṣṇa and the person Kṛṣṇa, the same thing. Just like we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the holy name of Kṛṣṇa—that means immediately Kṛṣṇa is on your tongue. He is dancing on your tongue. This is the difference. *Therefore, immediately we chant the holy name of Kṛṣṇa means immediately we get in contact with Kṛṣṇa or in association. Just like we are sitting together. Similarly, as soon as you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, immediately Kṛṣṇa is with you. Immediately. Kṛṣṇa is with you always. Still, particularly, tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad*-bhaktāḥ (Padma Purāna). And that is a fact. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , that means you directly associate with Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa being the Supreme Spirit, para-brahma , then, although we have got this material body, still, by association with Kṛṣṇa we become spiritualized. Just like you take one iron rod and put into the fire, the rod becomes warm. At last the rod becomes red hot. So when the iron is red hot, you put in touch with anything else, it will burn. It is no more iron rod. Although it is iron rod, but because it was in touch with fire, now it has attained the quality of fire. Similarly, if you always remain in touch with Kṛṣṇa by chanting His holy name, then you become spiritualized. *Therefore, chanting of His holy name is very important. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (Śikṣāṣṭaka 3). Caitanya Mahāprabhu advises that you should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā - mantra always, twenty*-four hours; *then you will remain in touch with Kṛṣṇa, just like the iron rod in touch with the fire. And gradually, as the iron rod turns to be fire, similarly, constantly in touch with Kṛṣṇa means you become Kṛṣṇa*-ized, the same quality. That is wanted. We are now covered by material things. Inside we are there. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). Inside we are spirit soul. Outside . . . just like inside your coat you are there, but the coat is outside. When the coat and shirt is taken away, then you are clothed in your original body. Similarly, as soon as these material coverings are taken away, then we are spirit soul. *We have to attain to that stage. That is perfection of human life: to get out of this material covering. To get out of this material covering means you get your original spiritual body and you become eternal, blissful, ānanda*-mayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). We are seeking after ānanda , everyone. We are dressing, we are talking, we are going here and there. The real purpose is how to become happy. That happiness, ānanda , is being hampered on account of this material covering. That we do not understand in this stage. In this stage also . . . there are three stages: goodness, passion and ignorance. In the ignorance stage, it is almost like dull matter or animals. In the passion stage, there is both propensity for enjoyment. And in the goodness stage, we can get some glimpse of light of our spiritual existence. Therefore, we have to come to the platform of goodness to understand the spiritual values of our life. *This platform of goodness is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . That is qualified brahminical stage. Not a brāhmaṇa born in the family and doing all nonsense. No, not like that. A quality brāhmaṇa . Quality brāhmaṇa means one who is truthful, one who is self-controlled, one who has controlled his mind and senses, one who is very tolerant, one who is very simple, no duplicity, one who is very, very advanced in knowledge. And not only simply one knows, but the things are practically behaved. Just like I may know, you may know, a brāhmaṇa means truthful. It is not simply to know truthful but actually to become truthful. That is called vijñānaṁ . As some of you who are studying science, the scientific knowledge means you should know theoretically what is water—a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. But you must know how to prepare, mixing the two chemicals, hydrogen, oxygen. That is called vijñāna. Jñāna means simply theoretical knowledge, and vijñāna means practically to know, experimental knowledge. *So these are the qualification of brāhmaṇa : jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma*-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). So when you are on this platform, pure light, full of knowledge, then you will be able to understand what is God, what is Brahman. And this will be very easily done if you simply hear the holy name of Kṛṣṇa. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ (SB 1.2.17). You become purified. In this way, as soon as you become purified—even not fully purified, say fifty percent purified—then you are immediately situated on the modes of goodness. That purification can be possible, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā , by associating with devotees and understanding the subject matter stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , in the Bhagavad-gītā . We are having so many centers all over the world just to give chance to the people to understand the subject matter of the Bhagavad-gītā and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So in this way one becomes purified and happy. Evaṁ prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogataḥ (SB 1.2.20). This bhagavad-bhakti - yoga , by practicing bhagavad-bhakti - yoga , one becomes prasanna-mana , very happy mood. Then he will be able to understand, bhagavat-tattva-vijñānaṁ mukta-saṅgasya jāyate (SB 1.2.20). So from the very beginning of your life, as Prahlāda Mahārāja did, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). He was five years old, and from the beginning of his life he was Kṛṣṇa conscious, and he used to teach Kṛṣṇa consciousness among his class friends. Prahlāda Mahārāja, in the school, he would preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness amongst the small children. So try to follow, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Follow the footprints of great personalities like Prahlāda Mahārāja, Dhruva Mahārāja. They were child; *still they become topmost devotees. There are many others. The Kumāras, they were very topmost devotees. So of course it requires little endeavor. Prahlāda Mahārāja's father was a demon, number*-one atheist. Still, Prahlāda Mahārāja had the chance to hear Nārada Muni while he was within the womb of his mother. Nārada Muni was instructing his mother, but Prahlāda Mahārāja within the womb of his mother heard everything from Nārada Muni. So before coming out of the womb of mother he understood the Bhāgavata philosophy. So from the very beginning of his life he was bhāgavata. Bhāgavata means devotee. *So we can follow Prahlāda Mahārāja, Dhruva Mahārāja. Of course, it requires the help of the parents. Otherwise, if we practice bhāgavata - dharma or bhakti*-yogam from the very beginning of our life, it is successful life. Fortunately, we had the good opportunity of learning bhāgavata - dharma from our very childhood. My father was a devotee, and he trained us. So it is the duty of all parents to train the children in the bhāgavata - dharma . Then life is successful. Otherwise life is not successful. There is every chance of falling down. Falling down means life is meant for elevation to the platform of spiritual life. And if we do not do that, then we fall down to the animal life. There are many species of life. You have seen in your front. One may become cats and dogs also. There is a great science, but people have no knowledge, neither in the school, colleges these things are taught. Neither do they know, the so-called teachers and educated persons. They do not know. So as far as possible, try to understand this Kṛṣṇa philosophy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā - mantra whenever you have got time. I think you have got enough time. That is my request. That we are preaching all over the world. Thank you very much. Devotee: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation Q%26A -- February 14, 1975, Mexico (translated into Spanish throughout) Prabhupāda: Actually, spiritual consciousness keeps the body fit. Just like in the body the spirit soul is there and the consciousness is also there, maybe polluted, but as soon as the spirit soul gives up this body, the body immediately begins to decompose. So the decomposition of the body is checked by the spiritual presence. So if you become advanced in spiritual consciousness there is no question of suffering from bodily disease. (break) Woman devotee: (translating) . . . along with the spirit soul can be realized? *Prabhupāda: Yes, by your present position, you can simply take the information that the dimension of the spirit soul is one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of your hair. Very small particle, that is spirit soul. The dimension is given. You have got your hair. You can just imagine only; you cannot measure. And you divide the top of your hair into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the measurement of the spirit soul. That small particle is so powerful. Just imagine what is spiritual power. It is less than the atom. Therefore it is described in the Vedic lit . . . aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20): "The spirit is greater than the greatest and the smaller than the smallest." Woman devotee: (translating) He wants to know exactly what is the form of the body. If spirit soul is nonmaterial, what is the form? Prabhupāda: There is form. Just like this body is compared with the dress. Now, just like in your present material form you have got hand, therefore your coat has got hand. If you have got . . . you have got leg; therefore your pant has got leg. Therefore it is to be assumed that the spirit soul has got form, and it has developed into hands, legs, heads, everything. It is not formless; it has got form. But with our material eyes at the present, gross eyes, we cannot find it; therefore we say it has no form. Woman devotee: (translating) Is Jesus in the paramparā ? Prabhupāda: Yes. He says, "There is God. I am son of God." That is paramparā . Yes. Unfortunately nobody cares to follow Jesus Christ. That I must say. Jesus Christ says, "Thou shall not kill," and Christians are very expert to kill. (laughter) They take pride in bullfighting. This is the position. So it is very difficult to find out a real Christian. Hṛdayānanda: (explaining a question asked) He wants to ask something which is not about you. Prabhupāda: What is that? Woman devotee: (translating question) If the circumstances don't allow it—I can't live in the temple, can't live in the āśrama , but I can still see the devotees—what else can I do to advance spiritually? Prabhupāda: You follow the temple procedure. You can remain anywhere, it doesn't matter. What is temple? They are following some rules and regulation. (break) If you are eating something and if you get a better thing, you'll give it up. So when one takes to bhakti means he understands the inferior quality of karma . So you take the superior quality activities and you forget inferior quality. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). This is the Vedic version. When one finds out superior engagement, he gives up inferior engagement. Hṛdayānanda: (translating question) He asked about heart transplants, where does the soul go in heart transplant, when they change the heart from one body to another body. He's asking about that. Prabhupāda: Heart changing? Hanumān: No. Now they're doing this heart transplantation. They're taking the heart of one person . . . Prabhupāda: The soul changes from this heart to that heart. That's all. Just like you are running your car. It stops. Then you change, this car to that car. That's all. (laughter) This is it. It is very common thing. Hṛdayānanda: (translating question) If by purifying ourselves we feel our relationship that we have with the Supreme Personality of Godhead? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the center of purification. *Hanumān: Prabhupāda, I would like to know, if there is no birth in the spiritual world, how do we re*-enter the spiritual world? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Birth means first of all you take your birth where Kṛṣṇa is now present. Kṛṣṇa is present in one of the universes. There are innumerable universes. So you take your birth in the next universe, or where Kṛṣṇa is now. Then you become trained up. And when you are trained up, then you personally go to Vaikuṇṭha. No birth. Hṛdayānanda: Any more questions and answers? Prabhupāda: Hmm. What is that? Hṛdayānanda: More questions and answers? Prabhupāda: If you like, I can go on. (break) Hṛdayānanda: (translating question) If there's another way to go to God. If there is another way. *Prabhupāda: No. (laughter) Because it is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā , Find out this. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . (Nitāi chants verse) Hṛdayānanda: (reads Spanish translation) *Prabhupāda: Nobody is allowed to enter kingdom of God without becoming bhakta . And there is no difficulty of becoming bhakta because the . . . to become bhakta means four principles. One thing is to always think of Kṛṣṇa. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ . That is bhakta . Simply by thinking of Kṛṣṇa . . . that is Hare Kṛṣṇa. When you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you think of Kṛṣṇa. You become bhakta immediately. Then, after becoming man- manā bhava, mad-yājī : "You worship Me," māṁ namaskuru , "and offer obeisances." It is very simple thing. If you think of Kṛṣṇa and if you offer little obeisances and if you worship Him, these three things will make you bhakta and you'll go back to home, back to Godhead. We are teaching this thing: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, offer obeisances unto Deity and worship. Finish all business. So why they should go to the jñāna path? It requires so much knowledge and so much grammatical, so much nose pressing, so many things. You avoid all these things. Simply do these three things and you become bhakta . Why don't you take the easiest process and go back to home, back to Godhead? Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya! (end) Conversation -- March 15, 1975, Tehran *Prabhupāda: . . . manda*-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ ( SB 1.1.10). This is the position of the people. Their span of life is shortening. Nobody is living long life. And if he's little long life, then people will commit suicide. Before coming out of India I heard one of our members, a big industrialist, he has committed suicide in Calcutta. So perhaps you know. He committed suicide in falling from the Wellington Bridge to the Ganges. Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: Did you hear? Mrs. Patel: I think yes, I did. It came out of papers, because I read one paper. *Prabhupāda: He was a big industrialist. This is the embarrassment. You cannot get out of this. So out of hopelessness they commit suicide. So apart from suicide, so much anxiety. You cannot live very long, from physical. This anxiety is just like fire, slow fire—burning, burning, burning, burning. So people will be short*-lived, especially those who are very, very big men. Heart failure and short span of life. This is the program for killing them by māyā . So, prāyeṇālpāyuṣaḥ , ālpāyuṣaḥ . Prāyeṇa . Prāyeṇa means "almost." Nobody is dying at one hundred years. No. We don't find anyone nowadays. Of course, the limit is one hundred years. Even in this Kali-yuga, one's span of life is limited up to one hundred years. But nobody's going to that limit. If one lives eighty, eighty-five years, oh, he is supposed to be very grand old man. But actually one should live at least a hundred years. So that is not going on. Then the next qualification is mandāḥ . Mandāḥ means "bad" or "slow." So in that way more or less every one of us, we are bad, mandāḥ . If mandāḥ means not bad, slow—that is a fact, everyone knows. Slow means that this human form of body has got some mission to execute, but nobody knows. And if anyone knows, he's slow. He knows that death will come at any moment, that I must finish my real business. But nobody is interested. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Lazy? Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Lazy? *Prabhupāda: Lazy, yes. Mandāḥ means lazy also. The real purpose of nature's way, that evolution is coming. Now the nature gives the chance, very good form of body than other lower grade of life—human form of life. Why? God realization. Athāto brahma jijñāsā (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.1): "Now inquire about Brahman." Therefore the intelligence is there, the facility is there, the brain is there—but he's not taking advantage. He's using that brain and facility for material enjoyment. He has got better intelligence than the cats and dogs, so that he can understand what he is, what is this world, who is the creator, what is my relationship. But nobody is interested. He thinks that, "I shall remain permanently as I am living now. Let me enjoy, find out," what is called, "invent new ways of sense gratification." The brain is used. So new ways of sense gratification. Misused. He has got a nice brain than the cats and dogs, but instead of using it to understand this, "What I am? Am I this body or something else? Then why I am put into this body? If I am eternal, then why I am subjected to death?" these questions . . . no. No university, no education. Nothing . . . (indistinct) . . . the same thing as the dog is, whole day and night, and the pig, whole day and night, searching after these bodily necessities of life—eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo . And if one is little interested, he'll go to that Ānanda-mārga . Sumanda-matayo , some bad faith. Everyone will think his path is very nice, anything you manufacture. And Vivekananda will say: "Yes, it is all right." Yata mat tata pat . "You can manufacture your own religious way of life. That is all right." Just last evening this gentleman was coming. So this is their Kali-yuga . . . (indistinct) . . . "You have got your own way, that is all right." That gentlemen, what is his name? Movebhad? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Movebhed. *Prabhupāda: Movebhed. Movebhed. This is educated man. This is going on. And any damn rascal you accept. This is going on. They won't take the standard path. "Kṛṣṇa's instruction, that is as good as others'." That's all. Even all this Ānanda*-mā is also this thing. I don't mind, it is a great bluff. Mrs. Patel: No, I thought of . . . (indistinct) . . . it, really. Prabhupāda: She does not know anything of the śastra , and he engages some man—whatever nonsense he speaks, that's all right. And people will . . . people will . . . she does not speak personally. Mrs. Patel: No, I wouldn't listen. Prabhupāda: No. Because she does not know; she is illiterate woman. Mrs. Patel: Because I have met her . . . (indistinct) . . . at some friend's house. Prabhupāda: Everyone. If we say, then people will accuse us, "This man is criticizing everyone." But I know that. I know that. Mrs. Patel: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: All bogus humbug. Therefore I don't make any compromise. Let you . . . you may come to me or not—I don't care for it. But I cannot make any compromise with these bogus things. Mrs. Patel: There is no compromise to satya. Prabhupāda: Yes. I say my, my movement is for Kṛṣṇa. So what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all right. If you like, then come; or go away, I don't mind . . . (indistinct) . . . I am solid. I am solid. I have taken Kṛṣṇa. That is solid program. And whatever little success has become possible, it is due to my this faith. I never showed any jugglery, created any gold or anything like that. I say my disciples, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," that's all. There is no jugglery. So, follow these rules and regulations, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās . Neither I have any such jugglery power, just like that Sai Baba does, some gold. People are so foolish. If little quantity of gold manufacturing, suppose he does so—he's God. So if the gold manufacturing is the qualification of becoming God, why shall I accept this rascal, Sai Baba? Why not accept the bigger God, who has manufactured millions and millions of gold mines? It is quite reasonable, sensible. If gold manufacturing is the qualification of becoming God, so why this man? Why not that person who created so many gold mines? In this planet there are gold mines. And there are innumerable planets, there are many, many, many, many gold mines. So who has created? Mrs. Patel: Do you think that the planets, they have got human beings like us? Prabhupāda: Huh? More intelligent. Mrs. Patel: More intelligent. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devatās, demigods. Mrs. Patel: Well, we used to see that they used to invite gods by mantras from other planets and make some most beautiful things. For example, Viśvakarmā was invited . . . Lord Kṛṣṇa invited Viśvakarmā to do the . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In great sacrifices they used to come. Mrs. Patel: Come. Prabhupāda: Even Lord Viṣṇu used to come. Mrs. Patel: Nowaday I think there is a little talks about it, that we used to invite people from different planets to do some most marvelous works. Now, I think, in States and other places, they've started. We have told them for since so many years that people used to come from different planets. Is it possible in this age also that people come from different planets? *Prabhupāda: Why they'll come to the third*-class man? They are not even third class, they're tenth class. Now they're less than śūdrās. Why they will come? And what capacity you have got to invite them? If you invite some big man, you must be also big. Why big man will come to a third class, fourth class, tenth class? How do you expect to invite? At that time Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was there. They would come by the invitation of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was so influential that people will not suffer for any kind of miserable condition. The subjects were so peaceful. That is described in the Bhāgavata . Find out, dharma-kṣetre . (to devotee) When I talk, these people, they have learned everything. As if it is meant for you only, my secretary. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have only, Śrīla Prabhupāda, one hope in this Kali*-yuga—is by listening to you. Prabhupāda: And who is going to listen me? Where is Śrutakīrti? Devotee: I don't know. He's in his room. Prabhupāda: What he's doing? Devotee (2): He's packing. Prabhupāda: So whenever there is meeting, one of you must be present. Why don't you come? Devotee: I was trying to pack before . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Now packing. Anytime. I have to call you. Why? All of you should be present. Do you think you have learned everything? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you come? Everyone should stop all business and should come here. What is that? Find out this verse what I could not remember. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , about King Yudhiṣṭhira? Prabhupāda: Yes, King Yudhiṣṭhira. Devotee: The one we were reading the other day? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: (indistinct) . . . he was suffering. Prabhupāda: Nādhayo vyādhayaḥ , that verse. Three kinds of . . . Nitāi: Oh. "Due to the King's having no enemy, the living beings were not at any time disturbed by mental agonies, diseases or excessive heat or cold." Prabhupāda: Yes. You have left your country on account of mental agony. This is the result. But during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was no such thing as mental agony. Everyone felt secure, "Oh, there is our King." That is good state. This is not state—it is a combination of all rogues, dacoits, thieves. Somehow or other they have taken power and become a government. This is the position. *Mrs. Patel: Bhārata*-varṣa is always called deva-bhūmi . *Prabhupāda: Agar deva*-bhumi mein rakshas agar pahoonch gaya to deva-bhumi kahan rah gaya? (If the rakshas enter deva-bhūmi , then how can it be any longer deva-bhūmi ?) Mrs. Patel: Correct. Kitna time kitna samay aisa rahega? (Correct. For how long it will go like this?) *Prabhupāda: Kitna? yeh chaloo rahega? (How much? It will continue on and on.) Unless they take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they must suffer. Then there cannot be any sympathy for them. By nature's way, daivī hi eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā mām eva . . . (BG 7.14). Nature's way is that . . . just like the police. Police business is to punish the criminal so that he may become a faithful citizen. This is the idea. Otherwise why police gives trouble to somebody and not to others? Because it is the state force to turn the criminal citizen to become a law*-abiding citizen. That is the position. Similarly, the material nature is there simply to punish these criminal living entities, godless. That is her business. Nature's law . . . God's law is so perfect. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8). His power, energy, so perfect that everything is going on naturally, machine. She is acting just like machine. Chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni (Bs 5.44). Just like this is the hand, and moving, and the shadow is also moving. So nature is like that. Nature is acting exactly as the Supreme Lord desires. We say, just like we go the sea beach, such a big, vast ocean, at any second it can overflood the city, the Bombay city or the Los Angeles city or the seaside. Such big, big waves. But we are walking. I teach all these things. Here is the water and here is the land. Because I know. I know that water cannot come here, although it is ten feet. But for the ocean it is not difficult. It can cover immediately hundreds of miles and overflood. It is not very difficult. And it has happened so many times. Why it is not happening? They say nature. Nature is there, but nature is acting on the order of God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are blind. Just like ordinary man, they are afraid of the police. But if a gentleman knows that, "If I have not killed anyone, then what I have got connection with the police?" So this is the position. God is there. His power is acting, His laws is working. He is maintaining actually millions and trillions of living entities. And it has become a fashion that, "Banish God, I am leader. I can do something good for you. What is Kṛṣṇa? What is Allah? It doesn't matter." Mrs. Patel: These leaders are not even punished. For example, we heard . . . Prabhupāda: They're punished. So many leaders punished. Oh, who is not punished? The Hitler is punished. The Napoleon Bonaparte is punished. Churchill is punished. Gandhi is punished. Who is not punished? Mrs. Patel: There is a story from Tibet that how they have changed the minds of children and the youngsters. There was a big hall, City Hall. First they put all the children to the Buddhist temple. And they told children, "You ask to God, "Please give us." " They were hungry in the morning. They were not given anything. They said, go and "Pray to God. This is your God." The children said: "Yes." "Pray. He will give you food." So children automatically prayed and said . . . Prabhupāda: That is Communist movement. Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are doing that. Mrs. Patel: So till afternoon children were crying. But no food came. Then they took them to the hall, City Hall. And there was Mao's photo. They said: "Now you request him." So the children started requesting, "Please give us food. Please give us food." Then immediately rich trays came, and children were fed. This is their tactics. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is going on. They are taking them to the church, village people, that "Pray, 'God give us our daily bread.' " So the bread is not coming. Then they take to the Communist leader and ask them, and they give bread. Mrs. Patel: And still Communism is going on. Prabhupāda: No. Because foolish . . . people are śūdrās . They have no intelligence. We are not going to become. The Communist leader cannot turn us to become Communist. Mrs. Patel: India won't be Communist? Prabhupāda: No. But "we" means personally I am, all my disciples, they are not going to become Communist, because they are not śūdrās . Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: They can turn the śūdrās , not the brāhmaṇas . The brāhmaṇa means he is intelligent, he knows. Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: He would ask immediately, "You rascal, you have brought this bread from where? From your father's property?" Ask. The brāhmaṇa will immediately ask. Mrs. Patel: Immediately ask, yes. Prabhupāda: "Where you got this bread? Have you manufactured in a factory?" "Yes. Bread bakery." "So where you have got this wheat? From where?" Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: "You manufactured wheat from your factory?" This question will come from the brāhmaṇa . "Why you are claiming that you have brought this bread? God has supplied you this bread. You are as agent, you have brought." That will be the enquiry of the brāhmaṇa . Mrs. Patel: Brāhmaṇa . Prabhupāda: And śūdrās , they do not know. They have no knowledge. They will accept, "Yes. Mao is supplying me bread." That is the difference between śūdrā and brāhmaṇa . Therefore we are trying to make brāhmaṇas , intelligent class of men. But people are not coming. Only few coming. Mrs. Patel: They will come. I should say that in such a short span . . . although . . . first time I came in contact with the with this movement ISKCON, was in Boston. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Okay.) Mrs. Patel: Because I normally observe ekādaśī , that I don't know where I kept my diary. I must have misplaced it somewhere, and ekādaśī was near. Prabhupāda: Which year, Boston? Mrs. Patel: That was in '70. And I told one of my neighbors' wife, I said: "Now I don't know where to get it, because it is so difficult." She said: "No, it's not difficult. You go to this Hare Kṛṣṇa temple, and they will tell you." Then I got ekādaśī date from them. And then next time we met them in Hawaii. We visited the temple. That was our last leg of the . . . this visit. Prabhupāda: Now we have got very nice building in Hawaii. *Mrs. Patel: Yes. Then in Amsterdam, '71, my children—I was taking them to Europe. I took them to Europe. First I took them to all yatra*-sthan , pilgrimage places in India. Then I took them to Europe. I said: "Now you can understand what the difference is. And you can be proud of your country." So in Amsterdam we found some people chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we went there. We went to the . . . it was just a new, starting temple in '71. And then we requested them, we said: "We are vegetarians. We are suffering so badly. We would have been better off if you have some prasādam there." Then, of course, whenever I go to London, I visit the temple. *Prabhupāda: So this Kṛṣṇa has already come by His holy name, incarnated. We have to take advantage. Then everything will be all right. Nature's law is, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna*-bala-kriyā ca (ŚU 6.8). Law is so perfect that everything is being done as if automatically, svābhāvikī . And it is being done automatically, but there is superintendent. If you infect some particular type of disease, nature's way is that you must develop that disease. The law is already there. It is not that nature will have to take care of it, "Oh, you have . . ." Just like police state, he has to. But automatically punished. Police law is not so perfect. Mrs. Patel: There is bribery there. Prabhupāda: If I steal, you have to arrest me, and then so many other things. If I bribe, then I can get excused. It is not perfect; *it is man*-made. But God-made law so perfect, if you have infected, you must suffer, automatically. Automatically the punishment will be. That is called svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca . So they do not study these laws. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). Everything is there. Therefore we are trying to train our people to associate with goodness—not passion, not ignorance. There are three guṇas . Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). If you keep yourself in goodness, then you'll be promoted in higher planetary system. Or still higher— mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25). "Anyone who is fully engaged in My devotional service, they will come to Me." The nature's law is there. You do it, you get the result. That's all. This is nature's law. Janma karma ca divyaṁ me jānāti tattvataḥ tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti . . . (BG 4.9). If you simply remain in business to understand Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Therefore we are presenting so many books. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, beginning with Bhagavad-gītā . The Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me ca divyaṁ : "These are all divine, transcendental." Yo jānāti tattvataḥ . Anyone who knows that in truth, what is the result? The result is automatic. What is that? Tyaktvā dehaṁ . "When this body is given up," mām eti: "He comes to Me." Everything is automatic. Now they are manufacturing so many things, automatic machine. Just like in the airport, when you step in, the door is open, automatically. And they are declaring, "Wonderful thing happening." And where is this automatic—that you infect some disease, immediately suffer? Is it not automatic? Is it not better than the opening door? (laughter) But who is studying? But there are. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate . The king was so pious that things happened during his time, that there is no mental anxiety of the citizens. Naturally. If we know that, "Our king is so nice and he's giving us so nice facilities, let us sleep peacefully," naturally you have no anxiety of mind. So you said that you could not sleep even. At any moment, under the pretext of law, the government men come and take all whatever I have earned through hard labor. This is the position. Then one anxiety enters in your mind, the other anxiety will come automatically, one after another. (to devotee) Read that. Nitāi: "Due to the King's having no enemy, the living beings were not at any time disturbed by mental agonies, diseases, or excessive heat and cold." Prabhupāda: Not even excessive heat and cold. Mrs. Patel: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is also suffering. Just see. By possessing one good king, you'll have freedom from all these anxieties. This is Vedic civilization: to train up the king first class, then everything will be all right. Not these some third*-class, fourth-class men, by hook and crook gets vote and come into the government ruling. Their business is how to get money, that's all. Mrs. Patel: Raja ka pehle se adhikaar hai. (The king has already been right from the beginning.) Prabhupāda: They think, "I have got this post for few years. Let me earn some money by hook and crook." So in any condition of life I have got. Read it. Nitāi: (reading purport) "To be nonviolent to human beings and to be a killer or enemy of the poor animals is Satan's philosophy." Prabhupāda: This is also another important point. People are engaged in killing the poor animals all over the world—big, big, slaughterhouse. So where the sinful activities will go on, they must suffer. Human beings, civilized, they are engaged in the most uncivilized way of life. In the jungle they used to kill some animals because they have no other idea to . . . how to eat. But now you are civilized man, you can produce so many things by your simply little labor. Why should you kill animals? Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). "Now you are civilized, produce food grains, both the animals and the man, and be satisfied." Who is going there? No. Especially in the Western world, "Oh, why take so much trouble? Bring one animal, kill and eat." That's all. This is going on. Because you have to . . . it is not very good, hard labor. If the society takes three months' labor, he can produce one year's food, or more than that. That is experienced. All the cultivators, they do that. So if by three months' working I can get my . . . the food grains, foodstuff, for the whole year, why shall I kill daily ten thousands of poor animals, thinking that there is no sin, I'll not be punished, there is no God? This is going on. They're killing their own child. Now they will kill their child and eat, because there will be nothing available. That time is coming. Because they're violating the laws of God, time will come, they will have to kill their own children and eat. Where they will get animal? The animal stock will be finished. Then their children stock will be taken. This is already started. Mercy killing—what is that? Mrs. Patel: Mercy killing. rabhupāda: So we should be prepared for all these sufferings. That is coming, one after another. Svābhāvikī . It will come automatically. If you do this . . . (indistinct) . . . "Come on." You think yourself free, all right; but it will come. If somebody says, "No, no. I am not going to be old man. I shall remain young man," "No, sir, it will be forced upon you." If somebody says: "No, I am not going to die," it will be forced upon you. Why don't you think, "Who is forcing?" Nobody wants to die. Nobody wants to become old man. Nobody wants to be diseased. Why these things are coming by force? Still they are so fools, they do not understand who is forcing, who is the agent, or who is the person. Confident, "Now I shall live like this. Now I am American, or Indian, my life is secure." *There in Mexico City I saw they were making good, big body. He's thinking, "If I build my body very strong and stout, then death will not come." He's thinking like that. Deha . Then apatya . Old man is thinking, "I have got so many nice, good children. They're earning. They're making business nicely. So I am secure." Dehapatya*-kalatra , wife. "Oh, I have got good wife, so faithful wife. So I am secure." Dehapatya-kalatra adi . This is the beginning of their self-sufficient. "Oh, I have got money, I have got good wife, I have got nice children, I have got good nation, good government. Therefore I have nothing to do with God. Let this poor man cry 'Hare Kṛṣṇa.' I have nothing to do." So therefore the next line says, pramattaḥ : "He's a madman. Here is a madman." Pramatta tasya nidhanaṁ . He knows that "All this paraphernalia I have created, they will be all finished." Tasya nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati . He knows that, still he'll not see it. The real fact, he knows that, but still he'll not see it. He'll think, "I am secure." This is materialistic mentality. Paśyann api na paśyati . Although he knows, he sees, that a thief, a criminal, he knows that he'll be punished, he'll be arrested—and still he's stealing. This is going on of the whole world. He has seen others suffering. He knows that this is the law, but still he's stealing. Jai . Mrs. Patel: Meri cook aane wali hai khana khane ke liye. (My cook is coming to eat food.) Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Okay.) Mrs. Patel: Aaj pad yatra hai? (Today is padayatra ?) Prabhupāda: Haan. Kahin bhi jayiye Hare Krishna naam japa kijiye. (Yes. Wherever you go, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is confident, "Now I am married, my position is secure. I have got so much money. I have got so many friends. I have got so much influence. I have got good wife, good children, nice bank balance, good position. Why shall I go to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? I am secure." This is going on. Everyone is thinking that he is perfect. This ignorance. "I can violate all the laws. I can violate the rules and regulations. I don't care for anyone." Therefore they are described as mūḍhā . Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ . Nobody cares how nature's law is acting, how it is going on. Nobody cares. The threefold miseries are there. If I become a little neglectful, immediately I'll catch cold. The miserable condition, cold and heat, is going on. So there are rules and regulations, I have to take care. And if you don't take care, immediately you become attacked with pneumonia, bronchitis, this and that. We're seeing it. Nature's law is so perfect. Little negligence. If you eat little more, then there is indigestion. You cannot violate nature's law. If you violate, then you must suffer. *Devotee: In Kali*-yuga . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee: In Kali*-yuga people think suffering is enjoyable. They glorify it. Prabhupāda: Unless he thinks like that, how he'll suffer? He has to suffer. That is the law of nature. And if he's not insane, then how he'll suffer? Just like the hippies—they suffer, and they take it as enjoyment. But by nature's law, he has to suffer. And if he does not take in that way—"It is enjoyment"—how he'll suffer? That is nature's mercy, that this man has to suffer, and if he does not become insane, how he'll suffer? He is punished. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is part of nature's arrangement . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . for him to suffer. Prabhupāda: Suffer. And He gives this facility that, "You suffer, and you take it as pleasure." That is nature's arrangement. That is nature's mercy. Just like we forget all our past life. If I do not forget . . . suppose I was very big man, but again I have become ordinary man, just like Bharata Mahārāja, you know. That is possible. So how you can stay? He will become mad. There are instances when Indra became a pig, and he forgot. When Brahmā came to take him again to the . . . "Oh, my dear pig, you were Indra. Now you have suffered, and you come with me. You come to your place, to your kingdom." "What is that? I was Indra? I don't mind. (laughter) I cannot go leaving my family, these pigs, so many." (laughter) So these are there. So Brahmā purposefully killed him and then take him. He would not agree. Even the pig will not agree that, "Come on to the heavenly kingdom. You were the king." "No, no, I don't like to go. This is very nice place, with stool and dirty water and these pigs. It is very nice life." This is māyā . This is māyā . Everyone will think, "I am very well situated. I am very happy. Why shall I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa?" That is the pleasure. Your question? What was the question? Devotee: I was just saying how people take this suffering and they glorify it. All the writers, the big poets and the writers. Prabhupāda: Because this is the same māyā , illusion. Therefore it is called illusion. Māyā means "What is not." That is māyā . They do not know. Just see. Nowadays the hippies, they are lying down on the street. There is no, I mean to say, surety where they will get food, and they don't take bath even . . . (break) (end) Arrival -- March 23, 1975, Mayapur Prabhupāda: . . . offering his blessings upon you. You are fulfilling his mission. He wanted that European, American should come here. It is all Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's blessing. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So there is no scarcity of space for keeping all the devotees? Bhavānanda: Everyone is situated . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhavānanda: Everyone is situated in rooms. Jayapatākā: Without these dwelling . . . wall dwellings, there would have been no hope. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said, (laughter) "You must complete, and whatever amount required, I shall pay." That I could analyze. (temple bells ringing in background) (break) Jayapatākā: . . . you Śrīla Prabhupāda. Only by your mercy you have brought us to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. I am simply messenger. Mercy is of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Śrīla Prabhupāda. Before your coming they predicted that "Somebody will bring." Maybe that somebody I am. (chuckles) Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura predicted. So anyway, Kṛṣṇa has given us nice place. Stay here. So you producing food grains? Jayapatākā: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Sufficient? What about the fruit garden? Jayapatākā: Fruit garden, there is a . . . many banana trees are producing their bananas, some pomegranate . . . Prabhupāda: You are getting banana, both unripe and ripe. Jayapatākā: Now they are all unripe. But they'll be ripe, pakkā . Prabhupāda: No, there is a class . . . Jayapatākā: Right, the kacha kola (green bananas) we have . . . getting very small. We have mostly the ripe bananas. Prabhupāda: And parwala (pointed gourd)? Jayapatākā: Parwala , yes. Prabhupāda: Where you are producing parwala here? Jayapatākā: Parwala , oh, across the road we get. Prabhupāda: How many . . . (break) One who is sincerely engaged in the service of the Lord, He gives him intelligence, "Now do this, do this." Simply we have to become sincere servant; then all dictation will come from within. Kṛṣṇa is there is everyone's heart. So work sincerely and everything will make progress. Who has painted this picture? Acyutānanda: Puṣkara. Prabhupāda: Ohh. Very nice. So Ātreya Ṛṣi Prabhu, you are feeling all right here? Jayapatākā: You feeling all right here? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Jayatīrtha: The atmosphere here is sublime, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Now make sublime management. (laughter) That is required now. We are now extended. We must manage very nicely. Of course, management means sincere service. Then everything will be all right. Still, we have to deal with the material world. We have to become little proper. So in Calcutta the one lock was open. There was nothing. You said it is in Calcutta? Eh? Is it all right? (aside) You don't require fan. Therefore I planned two sides open, cross ventilation. Jayapatākā: Everything you plan is perfect. *Prabhupāda: No. I imagine, Kṛṣṇa makes it perfect. I think, "It would have been nice if it would have been like this," but Kṛṣṇa . . . yei prasāde pūre sarva āśā (Śrī*-guru-vandanā 2). Long, long ago, when I was publishing Back to Godhead, one sheet, I was thinking that, "What is this sheet? If it would have been like Illustrated Weekly, then it would have been nice." Now they are coming like that. Jayapatākā: Now Illustrated Weekly is nothing compared to Back to Godhead. *Prabhupāda: No. (laughs) Better than Illustrated Weekly. I thought of getting some help from artist. For painting picture, I will dictate, and they will paint picture. Now Kṛṣṇa has got lots of artists. So depend on Kṛṣṇa. He can do everything, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. This new catalog you have seen? They have made nice catalog, Rāmeśvara Prabhu. Rāmeśvara Prabhu is very competent manager of the BBT. Jayatīrtha: Yes, he's first class. Prabhupāda: Yes. And he works very hard. That is his qualification. What is the news of our Karāndhara Prabhu? He's not coming? Jayatīrtha: He came. The week before we left, he came three times to the temple, twice for the evening āratik and once for the Sunday feast. He came and listened to the lecture. So he is doing a little better. (break) Rāmeśvara: Scientific Basis? Prabhupāda: Yes? Rāmeśvara: It is being printed now in America. Prabhupāda: Oh, you wanted to bring it? Rāmeśvara: We may print it in India also. Prabhupāda: Oh. Rāmeśvara: But to get it in the selling right away we printed it in America. Prabhupāda: You have brought some book? You have brought some books? Rāmeśvara: Not too many of those, because they're still printing. Prabhupāda: All right. *Jayatīrtha: We brought some copies of that Ādi*-līlā , Chapter Seven. (break) *Prabhupāda: This is conclusion. Because he is Arjuna, devotee, he simply understood, "Yes. Whatever You say, correct. The demons or even the gods, they cannot understand." Why Arjuna understood? That he has explained in that Eighteenth Chapter. Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtiṁ labdhā tvat*-prasādād madhusūdana ( BG 18.73). Trivikrama: Is he never envious? Prabhupāda: Huh? (pause) (break) Paramahaṁsa: "Arjuna said, My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and prepared to act according to Your instructions." Prabhupāda: That's it. He understood that, "Kṛṣṇa is divine. So whatever He says, that is my duty to do, not to judge Him on my platform." That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. One who does not take Kṛṣṇa in the same platform as one is but accepts Kṛṣṇa's personality, then he can understand. Otherwise, how one can accept it that a person has expanded many millions of universes like this? Immediately they will take as mythology, because he's thinking on terms of his capacity, not as Kṛṣṇa says. Therefore nobody could understand Kṛṣṇa. We took the simple method, accept Kṛṣṇa as He says. That's all. Finished. That is the main business. Our philosophy is simple because we take it, Kṛṣṇa's word, as it is, that's all. And we believe it firmly, "Yes, this is the truth." To understand Kṛṣṇa is not difficult. What Kṛṣṇa says, you accept it. Sarvam etam ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi keśava (BG 10.14): "Whatever You say, I accept it. Not only I accept it blindly, but this very thing was accepted by such great personality as Vyāsadeva." (aside) Anyone who wants to come in . . . simple thing. Big, big ācāryas , they accepted Kṛṣṇa as He is. And why shall I not accept? This is paramparā system. If others have accepted Kṛṣṇa as He tells, and they have become big, big ācāryas , so what objection can be there from my part? What I am? Paramahaṁsa: They have some completely illogical argument. Just like those people in . . . Prabhupāda: Unfortunate. Illogical argument means unfortunate. Rascals. Therefore we say plainly, "You are all rascals." That's all. You have no discrimination. Anyone who does not believe as He is, he's a rascal, that's all. He may be happy or sorry, you don't mind. You don't make compromise. At least I do not do. If you have no full faith in Kṛṣṇa, then you are a rascal, that's all, whatever you may be. The Dr. Patel does not like this, but he does not protest to me. As others say, he protests by them. It is a fact. We have no difficulty to understand Kṛṣṇa and thus make our life successful. But we unnecessarily bring arguments, impediments to understand Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are unfortunate, envious of Kṛṣṇa. Trivikrama: Envious. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Paramahaṁsa: They say that . . . they become very agitated when we stress so much, in Bhagavad*-gītā , that Kṛṣṇa is God. Prabhupāda: That means envious, envious. Paramahaṁsa: Yes, envious. They say: "Why is it so . . .? Why do you stress . . .?" Prabhupāda: Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān . Find out. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān . Paramahaṁsa: Prabhupāda: Ajasram yoniṣu . Paramahaṁsa: "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life." Prabhupāda: All of them are going to Russia to take birth. Yes. Not Russian people are bad. That is a mistake. Some of them. Some people are good. That I have experienced. Otherwise how . . . (aside) Don't do that. Otherwise how that Anatole came to become my . . .? And there are many like that, mostly like him. It is by artificial suppression that it has been advertised, "The Russian people are all Communist." That's not fact. That's not fact. Simply some rogues and thieves and demons, by threats . . . it is a country of, what is called? Terrorism. A terror. People have decided to leave this country, but they cannot leave. Mostly Russians, they want to leave that country, and some of them already done so. Many Russians have fled away. Many Chinese men have fled away. They don't like this philosophy. Paramahaṁsa: Also the East Europe countries, Eastern Europe countries. Prabhupāda: Many countries. It is unnatural to deny God. It is unnatural. This is also Kṛṣṇa's another magic. All such people who had any doubt about Kṛṣṇa, they have been kept over there in Russia. Just like the other day there was a train crash accident. So all these rascals, they are brought together in that way in a train or two train, and they smashed. That is . . . just like Kṛṣṇa did in Battle of Kurukṣetra. All the rascals were brought into the battlefield and finished. Therefore Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- June 11, 1975, Honolulu (Talk During Massage) *Siddha*-svarūpa: At a lot of the universities in the United States, they have what is called Free University. It's a part of the college, and, like, almost anybody can give classes there, and it's open to the entire student body. Prabhupada: . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, right. Prabhupada: You have studied Judah's book? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, I have. *Prabhupada: And he has got letter that, "I realize that you have converted these drug*-addicted hippies to be servant of Kṛṣṇa and . . . (indistinct) . . ." That is their appreciation. And that is a fact. They are surprised that these drug-addicted, most fallen boys, they have given up everything and now they are pure devotees. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, it isn't surprising . . . *Prabhupada: No, any sane man will think. There are so many svāmīs, yogīs coming. They cannot do anything. They remain the same, drug*-addicted. Either Guru-ji Maharaj or this or that, Maharishi Yogi. They remain the same rascals. Do they change? That they are observing. That is the wonderful thing. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā ( SB 5.18.12). If one becomes perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is fully surrendered, "I have got everything . . ." Then he becomes all-perfect. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sarvair guṇais , all good qualities. Otherwise, what is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? He becomes the perfect. And without any greed. All greed is finished. He is satisfied in Kṛṣṇa. He becomes happy. And so long he is . . . now he is satisfied to jump like monkey—from this platform, that platform, all temporary, unhappy. Here is your love: jumping. So try to administer this. Especially in your country . . . (indistinct) . . . and you will remain happy. Otherwise, simply the running car and skyscraper will not make you happy. I think you are already realizing. Govinda dāsī: Our parents were raised in the farms. Prabhupada: Huh? Govinda dāsī: Our parents, most of our parents, were raised in the farms or their parents were raised in farming. And then their children went to the city, and all the buildings, and many people went to the city, and now their children are going back into the farms. So they’re trying the other way. It's going back into that direction. *Prabhupada: The farmers' children, they are leaving their farms. I have seen. In New Vrindaban, the farmers' children are not following. The father is working, and the boy has gone for education in the city, never to come back. Just like our Indian boys, they come here and they do not go back home. Material facilities they find more attractive. All varieties of vegetables, fresh fruit. In India still they have got many farm like that. I went with my father when I was about twelve years, thirteen years old, a remote family in the village. From the railway station it was twenty*-four miles each way, and we had to go there. In those days there was no bus; *this bullock cart. And I stayed there three, four days. The fresh vegetables, and ghee, nice rice, nice puffed rice, molasses. They gave me for breakfast this puffed rice mixed with molasses and cream. And then first*-class rice, ḍāl , vegetables, ghee, cow's ghee, milk. And everything will be within the reach. You haven’t got to go to the store. The rice is there, ḍāl is there, the vegetables, in the garden, the milk is there, the ghee. Remote village, and they are independent. My father was doing cloth business, he was customer. They bring cloth. Formerly the cloth was also being manufactured in the village. And in Bengal, the system was that four, five men dig a big lake, and with the mud they prepare their house. Mud walls, that's good as brick. It is not fired. Raw. That is very good. So you get water by digging the lake, and all around there are cottages. And little farther you have got your land, grow your food. Those who are fish eaters, they are keeping fish farm. Everything fresh. No one had to go to the city. Nowadays, this city capitalist, they sold their market, and he will get five hundred dollars. He thought that, "We are not . . . money is very scarce in the village. Let us go to the city and spend." You get five hundred dollars but you have to spend eight hundred dollars. Then he will learn how to drink, how to go to cinema, how to go to restaurant, how to go to club. Then gambling. All good things. *Siddha*-svarūpa: You don’t think that it will be difficult, then, to convince people to move back to the farms once they learn that it is the right thing to do? Because everyone has been taught that the right thing to do is to, in America, is to live in the cities and make money and this and that. They don’t know . . . Prabhupada: You . . . our people should show example, just like we are trying to do in New Vrindaban, that you grow your food, and . . . (indistinct) . . . milk, weave your cloth. And little school, and chant. Govinda dāsī: This philosophy is going on here in Hawaii. I mean, there are many . . . not just devotees; there are many other people . . . Prabhupada: This is peaceful. Unless one is peaceful, how it is possible to awaken Kṛṣṇa consciousness? So peacefulness means you require eating, sleeping, mating, defending. So adjust it in such way and save time. We are not denying these things—these are necessities—but in a organized, planned way. That we are doing. When the attraction is Kṛṣṇa . . . otherwise he will be attracted by the city. So, it is all in your hands. So village to village, organize this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We don’t want to stop this material activity. That is not our goal. But if people remain satisfied in country life, sustained living, that will be better for them. But the government does not like village independence. The leaders? *Siddha*-svarūpa: No, they promote city life. I think that they consider city life to be more money-making. They make more money for themselves. *Prabhupada: Money*-making for the big capitalists. Ambarīṣa: More or less they’ve polluted the agricultural way too by agribusiness, it's called now. The businessman in the city owns the land, and it's made into business. It's not simple village life anymore. Prabhupada: No. Just like we saw the other land, they are growing huge quantity of sugar cane. That is business. Instead of producing food for the residents of the land, they are producing sugar cane to export. That is business. *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's like here in Hawaii, the Dole Pineapple Company, they produce so much pineapple they’ve utilized almost all year all the land in Hawaii . . . Prabhupada: That is trade. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . and they overproduce every year, and then they . . . so much of it rots. So much of it is wasted. Prabhupada: Oh. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They can’t sell it. Prabhupada: And vegetables they are bringing from the mainland. Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupada: Just see. Govinda dāsī: They grow nothing but pineapple, sugar cane and beef, cows for eating, and they import the vegetables from the mainland. It's insane. Prabhupada: So the pineapple they export abroad? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, they'll export some of it, but they can’t export the entire crop, so a lot of it just rots in the fields. Prabhupada: Oh, it is a waste. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, it is a waste. Prabhupada: So if, I think, they will give it to the cows, it can be utilized. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Cows can eat pineapple? Prabhupada: They will eat anything. There is no question of wasting. That if we give the fruits, grains, you take the best part, and the refuse part you give to the animals. Any fruit you take, the skin and other things you give to the cows, they will eat. Grains, you take the inner part; the substandard skin you give them, they will eat. There is no expenditure for maintaining cows. And in exchange, they are giving you milk. No expenditure for you, and you . . . they are not drinking the milk, it is for you. She is giving milk, "So give me a little shelter. There is no expenditure for you. I will eat from the field, and whatever refuse you don't take, you give me. I will give you fresh milk. Don’t cut my throat." A rascal civilization. And they want peace. They don’t want atom bomb. They don’t want war. Nonsense. You must be killed every moment. So these sinful activities are accumulated, then war is declared—finished, whole civilization. This is going on. All these big wars are started in the Western countries. They are so sinful. Bomb. "Rrr. You have created your H bomb, your atom bomb." Men, money and assets, everything finished, again . . . this is going on. *Siddha*-svarūpa: People in America, they are under the illusion that there can never be a war on the mainland. Prabhupada: Huh? *Siddha*-svarūpa: People in America are under the illusion that there will never be a war on the mainland of America, because there never has been . . . Prabhupada: They are believing in so many things. Govinda dāsī: I’ve heard that you have said there will be a war soon. Prabhupada: Now, how this atom bomb will be used unless there is war? They have . . . everyone has stock of atom bomb. So why these atom bombs are there? *Siddha*-svarūpa: There's so many of them, too. Prabhupada: It must be utilized for war. There must be war. There must be war. Govinda dāsī: Won’t this be an impediment to the preaching work? Prabhupada: Huh? Govinda dāsī: Won’t this be an . . . Prabhupada: The Russia and America is prepared to fight at any moment. *Siddha*-svarūpa: This would destroy the cities. Prabhupada: Huh? *Siddha*-svarūpa: They would destroy the cities. Prabhupada: And all rogues are ready. China, Russia, America especially. And all other small countries. Just like in every war. India has nothing to do with these Western countries, and these rascals, Britishers, they involved India also, British Empire. Unless they involve India, they cannot utilize Indian soldiers. And they won victory only for Indian soldiers, the Sikh soldiers. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Does the Indian government want war? Prabhupada: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They do? Prabhupada: Yes. Indian government, that was British government, British government. They implicated. And in the peace conference, one Indian, S. P. Sinha, made him Lord. The Britishers bribed him, made him Lord. And he spoke to the peace conference, "Yes, India wants the Britishers' help to develop." Because there the question was why Britishers were in, occupying India. And because the real cause of war, Germany. The Germany, they wanted to trade with India and other parts of the world, and the British Empire will not allow them. As soon as German goods are there, they will charge fifty percent customs. And the same thing they will take from Germany and Japan and stamp it "Made in England." And they have made . . . because India was in their hands, they made propaganda, anything, any damn thing made in England is first class. So Germans saw that "Our goods, this rascal shopkeeper nation, they are purchasing and stamping "Made in England," and we cannot sell our goods. This is the cause of war. "Finish these rascals." That was the cause. And they finished. (snaps fingers) Although Germans themselves became finished, but they finished the Britishers. That's a fact. They finished. After this war, Britishers were finished. They lost India. They were finished. Their determination was . . . (indistinct) . . . biggest haters of these Britishers are the Germans. They do not like to speak in English. Do you know that? Govinda dāsī: No. Prabhupada: The German people . . . this I am . . . (indistinct) . . . the late Kaiser, he was grandson of Queen Victoria. His mother the daughter of Queen Victoria. So they are relative. So when he was a boy he was in England . . . (indistinct) . . . somehow or other he cut his finger . . . (break) . . . and the lame man gives his direction, "Go this way," then both of them will be finished. So Indian culture and American money, if it is combined, the whole world will be changed. Andha . . . Ambarīṣa: Such a good proposal. Prabhupada: Huh? Ambarīṣa: It's such a good proposal. *Prabhupada: Andha*-paṅgu-nyāya . This is Sanskrit. It is called Andha-paṅgu-nyāya. Paṅgu means lame; andha means blind. The logic of blind and lame. Very good example. Yes. Ambarīṣa: First the Americans will have to see how they are blind. Prabhupada: Huh? Ambarīṣa: First the Americans . . . Prabhupada: Yes, they are blind with wealth. Ambarīṣa: Hmm. *Prabhupada: Dhana*-durmadāndha . As soon as you become very rich, you become blind; *you don’t care for anything. This is blind. That is described, Dhana*-durmadāndha. Dhana means riches. When a man gets too much wealth, he becomes blind. Puffed up . . . (indistinct) . . . so that is natural. As soon as you get enough money, you become blind. Therefore, to possess very large amount of money is an hindrance to spiritual advancement. The rich man thinks that, "What is this nonsense? These poor men, they have no money so they have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." He thinks, "Ah, we don’t have to chant. We have got enough. These people have no food, no shelter; they have to chant." This is blind. The Hare Kṛṣṇa is required for everyone, that they do not understand. They think it is required for the poor man. They have no other business, and they are chanting in the street. That's all. Do they not think that? Ambarīṣa: They are thinking that chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is for material benefit. Prabhupada: (laughing) Yes. They have taken a . . . (indistinct) . . . and begging form us. Therefore they are blind. They do not know. That is Professor Judah's book, that Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is so much misunderstood. He has taken the labor of presenting his book so that any sane man will understand what is the importance of this movement. He is good man. Out of his good feeling that such a nice movement is being misunderstood, so he has attempted to drive away that misconception about Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. That is very good service. And he will be benefited, he has done such service. Now it is in your hands. I am now old man, at any moment. You, you take it seriously. There are books, and push it. People will be happy. Plain living and spiritual advancement, they do not understand. They do not know there is anything as spiritual advancement. Ambarīṣa: No, they don’t . . . Prabhupada: Yes. Ambarīṣa: . . . realize what spirit is. Prabhupada: Yes. "What is this nonsense spiritual life?" They think like that. Ambarīṣa: And yet they are . . . many people who are so materially advanced, they are so unhappy. Prabhupada: No, they will say: "We will make solution for the (inaudible). Just we are trying." They are trying, trying, trying, trying, (laughing) trying, trying. Ambarīṣa: And they blame others for their unhappiness. Prabhupada: Huh? Ambarīṣa: They blame others for their unhappiness. Prabhupada: What is that? Ambarīṣa: Like where I live, someone . . . like say a woman is unhappy in her life, you know, she would blame her husband, "Oh, it is your fault that I am unhappy. I have all this, but you do not give me love," and so forth. Prabhupada: That is everywhere, husbands, wives quarreling. That is not . . . the husband is thinking, "The wife is the cause of my unhappiness," and wife is thinking that "My husband is the cause of my unhappiness." Govinda dāsī: My unhappiness? Prabhupada: They are, on the whole, both of them unhappy. Cause may be different, but the both of them unhappy, that's a fact. And when there is unhappiness, that is I accuse you, you accuse me. But it is a fact, both are unhappy. That they do not know. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam . (break) "Why you are unhappy? Let us live peacefully." That also you will not be allowed. You have to give up that position, because you have to of tried. If you make compromise, "All right, let us . . . it is little inconvenient; let us compromise and live peacefully." But you cannot live even. You have to die . . . (break) . . . at any moment. No better food—or stale meat and frozen vegetables, all rotten. And then wine, just like asuric , this is their food. They have to live like that. And they are going on thinking this is civilization. This is māyā . Govinda dāsī: It seems they’re forced. *Prabhupada: They must work in that way because they are neglecting Kṛṣṇa. Māyā . will go on kicking like anything, and they will think it is happiness. This is called illusion. Māyā is kicking, that, "You rascal, you have forgotten Kṛṣṇa. I will punish you every moment." That is going on. And he is thinking, "I am happy." This is called māyā . He is not come to the senses that, "Here I can not be happy. Best thing is finish this material business, go back to home." That is intelligence. That is intelligence. They are not intelligent. They have no common sense, because they cannot understand transmigration of the soul. So dull*-headed. That Professor Stillson Judah has understood the importance of the movement, that he said that "Your, the movement is so exalted that you have brought the drug-addicted hippies to this platform of serving Kṛṣṇa and the humanity." Now people are realizing, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so exalted that if one is actually Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he will know that, "I don’t require anything." Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ yasmin sthito . . . guruṇāpi vicālyate (BG 6.22). If one is situated strongly on the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then even in the severest type of material miserable condition, he will not forget Kṛṣṇa. Tolerant. He will not hesitate. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He will stand fixed-up, "Yes, I don’t forget Kṛṣṇa." That is the fact, that here you cannot make any solution of any problem. You simply create problems. That you will do very easily. But to make a solution, that is not good. Your so-called civilization, science and advancement will simply create problems, and you will suffer. *That is their defect. They cannot understand that, "We are simply creating problems in the name of advancement." Our Siddha*-svarūpa was telling that the Hawaiians, they don’t want this American life of material happiness. They don't want. And they are being forced to accept this type of civilization, and they will realize. They want open field, agriculture. They welcome, a simple host, and their civilization, their mode of life has been killed by these Americans. They are very unhappy, but they are powerless. They do not like this. Nobody likes. I also personally do not like it. I come for preaching, not for enjoyment. But I do not like this very much. And this is not happiness, what is happening here. Everything. They do not get fresh food. First thing is eating. Everybody is eating all stale, tasteless, rotten, decomposed. You cannot get anything fresh. You cannot. But this stale food, keeping in the refrigerator for three hundred years, they like it. How they have become a downtrodden or fallen, even in their taste! Leftover, they keep it in the refrigerator, and after one week they can eat. Govinda dāsī: Chinese food. Prabhupada: Less than the animals. *(long pause) Which is very good, making material advancement, that's all right, but why should you not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? This is a good certificate we have got from some very authoritative person, that we are turning these drug*-addicted hippies into the servant of Kṛṣṇa and the humanity. Is it not a good certificate? Govinda dāsī: Yes. It's true. Prabhupada: Huh? And that's the fact. Govinda dāsī: We were all hippies. *Prabhupada: This is the fact. (laughs) And I came to America for this purpose. Pāpī*-tāpī jata chilo hari-nāme uddhārilo, tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. Hari-nāme uddhārilo , simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , Caitanya Mahaprabhu delivered all sinful men, suffering humanity. Is it? What is the evidence? Tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi . Just see, Jagāi and Mādhāi was drunkard. So I thought, "Why one Jagāi and Mādhāi? Why not hundreds and thousands of them, if hari-nāma has got so much power?" So actually it has done so. Now you also take it very seriously. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo hari-nāme uddhārilo . You understand Bengali? Govinda dāsī: No, sorry. Maybe next time. *Prabhupada: Papi means sinful, and tapi means suffering. So these two classes of men are there all over the world: sinful and suffering. As soon as one becomes sinful, he will suffer. So all these sinful and suffering beings were delivered simply by the method of saṅkīrtana: hari*-nāme uddhārilo. Tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi . They would actually see Jagāi and Mādhāi, what they were and what they have become. Try to administer this. So the first house, what is that place, Kaiva? Govinda dāsī: Ka’ava? Prabhupada: Huh? Govinda dāsī: Ka’ava? Prabhupada: Ka’ava. Govinda dāsī: Ka’ava. Where the rats were running? Prabhupada: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Yes, that was Ka’ava. That was the first house. That house is no longer there. They have bulldozed and made apartment buildings. Prabhupada: Oh. That was improvement. You have been there? Ambarīṣa: No. Prabhupada: Sudāmā. Sudāmā, Kārttikeya and . . . what was his name? . . . (indistinct) . . . (long pause) Your tulasī plant began from there, eh? *Govinda dāsī: No, it began from McKinley Street, the other house where the temple was, where you installed the Pañca*-tattva deities. Prabhupada: No, you tried there also. Govinda dāsī: I don’t remember. I was thinking of . . . Prabhupada: You planted. Govinda dāsī: I was thinking of it. I can’t remember. I got the seeds from a lady once, but they did not . . . they didn’t grow. I got some seeds that didn’t grow. Now they’re everywhere. Ambarīṣa: On the other islands, too? Govinda dāsī: Oh, yeah. Prabhupada: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: They’re everywhere now. Prabhupada: Yes. *Govinda dāsī: I went to the North Shore just recently to the hut where Siddha*-svarūpa used to hold meetings, and there in the backyard I saw a huge tulasī plant, Kṛṣṇa tulasī , as big . . . Prabhupada: I saw in . . . what is that island? Govinda dāsī: Hawaii. Prabhupada: No, no. After Australia. Ambarīṣa: New Zealand? Prabhupada: No. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Fiji? Prabhupada: Fiji. Fiji. Govinda dāsī: On Fiji. Prabhupada: There also, they have got. The gentleman whose house I stayed, Mr. Punja. There were not so many, but one or two, very nice. Govinda dāsī: I’ve heard there are many Indians in Fiji. Prabhupada: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: I’ve heard there are many Indians in Fiji, many Indian people. Prabhupada: Yes. Almost there is majority Indians. And they are very wealthy. Fiji is very nice island, and it has got very, very good potency for spreading. Where have . . . where we have our temple. (long pause) Almost like Hawaii. That Perth . . . Parth or Perth, Australia? What is that? Govinda dāsī: Perth? Is it Perth? Prabhupada: Perth? Ambarīṣa: On the western side of Australia? Prabhupada: Yes. Ambarīṣa: The desert, like. As you come from India, you land at the first place? Prabhupada: Perth. Ambarīṣa: Perth, yes. Prabhupada: Although it is desert, it is not bad. There are many trees also. Where I was staying, that is full of trees. But it is warm. Ambarīṣa: Yes. Prabhupada: Many birds in the trees where I am staying. We have got now a very nice temple in Melbourne. First class. Govinda dāsī: Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupada: Huh? Govinda dāsī: Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa is . . .? Prabhupada: Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. Govinda dāsī: Is it Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Ambarīṣa: No. *Prabhupada: No. Madhudviṣa. He has just organized. So Nitai Gaura. Gaura*-Nitāi, we can establish many temples, and simply chanting the holy name and dancing . . . (indistinct) . . . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair (SB 11.5.32): chant, dance and distribute prasāda . You don’t require even education. Simply before the Lord Nityānanda and Gaura, simply chant and dance. You will become the first-class advanced spiritual. It is so easy. Even if you are illiterate, you cannot read, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance. That's all. Is it very difficult? (laughs) Everyone does it automatically. Even the child, you have seen how the small child takes part. He enjoys. He was not taught to stand and . . . every children. What is their education? What is their spiritual education? They are offering flower. So nice movement. Even dogs take part, I have seen many times. They like the saṅkīrtana . That is a fact. The dogs also circling, and if anyone attemps to dance, " Kaa-kaa . . ." Govinda dāsī: I remember there was one dog in Ka’ava that was very fond of you. Each morning whenever you took your walk, there was one big dog, he would come. Prabhupada: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Do you remember? Prabhupada: Yes. Govinda dāsī: That dog disappeared soon after you left. Prabhupada: Ācchā ? Govinda dāsī: He disappeared. And do you remember that one cat that used to run under your feet as you took your walk in the morning, that little cat that we had there? Prabhupada: Yes. Govinda dāsī: And you were always making fun that . . . actually, I didn’t want it, but it had come there, you know. It died the night after you left. (laughs) So I think they took some better body. Prabhupada: And the dog disappeared? Govinda dāsī: The lady said her dog disappeared. She was crying, had a reward out. She was upset. Prabhupada: Oh, she was accusing us? Govinda dāsī: No, she wasn’t accusing us, it just disappeared. Maybe stolen, maybe ran away. It just disappeared, yes. The cat also. So I guess everyone is benefiting. Prabhupada: If it appeals to the small child, it appeals to the animals. Because the animal life and child life . . . there is no difference. They are the same. So we can understand, if it appeals to the child, small child, then it appeals to the animal also. That means all living entities, never mind he is animal, man or . . . Govinda dāsī: Until they are educated the wrong way. *Prabhupada: Yes. That education, modern education, means to finish their brain. To make him more and more illiterate. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, jaḍa*-vidyā saba māyāra vaibhava . This education is the expansion of māyā . How it helps us? There is no question of help. It binds you more and more in material life. You are already illusioned, and it will create more illusion, so that you will be bound up with the material life. Anitya saṁsāre moha jīvake karaye gāḍha . And if we say that "By this education you are becoming more and more like an ass," they will be very much angry. (long pause) Before Lord Caitanya, Nityānanda, if one simply chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, his life . . . he has nothing to do. So easy thing. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti , he becomes the best brain. Su-medhasaḥ : his brain becomes clear from all hodge podge things. Everything is on the brain. Madman means on the brain. If the brain is cleansed, then where is the possibility of becoming madman? All these materialistic men, more or less, they are all mad, crazy, more or less. (long pause) Govinda dāsī: Have you heard anything from Gaurasundara? Has he written you? Prabhupada: No. Govinda dāsī: He told me he wrote you one letter. Prabhupada: When? Govinda dāsī: Since the last time you came. Prabhupada: No. Govinda dāsī: You didn’t receive. I remember you wrote him a letter and asked him to come? Prabhupada: Yes, that . . . Govinda dāsī: He said that he received it the day after you left. And then he said he wrote you a letter. You didn’t receive? Prabhupada: No, I did not receive it. Call Paramahaṁsa. Where is Paramahaṁsa? Govinda dāsī: Paramahaṁsa? (pause as Govinda dāsī goes to call Paramahaṁsa) I don’t understand Gaurasundara's philosophy. It's changing all the time, and it's all . . . (indistinct) Prabhupada: That I have told, they will simply change. They will never keep it. Govinda dāsī: It's always changing. He says so many contradictory things, I’m just bewildered. I can't pinpoint what . . . you know. I know that most philosophies you can figure out what . . . Prabhupada: He is not philosopher, he is crazy. Govinda dāsī: Yes, that's what I mean. Yes. You received my letter? The one . . . Prabhupada: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: You received that letter I wrote you? Prabhupada: Yes, I received something. Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupada: Another letter? Paramahaṁsa: No. Prabhupada: Did you receive any letter from Gaurasundara? Paramahaṁsa: No. He wrote recently? Govinda dāsī: He wrote since the last time, you wrote that letter to him on the Big Island? Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, the invitation. Govinda dāsī: He answered it. He said that he answered it. Paramahaṁsa: Really? Where did he answer it to? Here? Govinda dāsī: I don’t know. I’ll ask him, but he said he did answer it. He said he wrote you a letter. Maybe he just told me that to pacify me. Prabhupada: If he wants to speak with me, he can write a letter and you can bring it when you go. Or you can post. Why the letter will not come if he has posted? Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, it would’ve come. Prabhupada: Nobody intercepted. Paramahaṁsa: Especially if he sent it here it would have easily come, because they would know where we were. Manasvī is in contact. Prabhupada: We are getting a very nice place in Hyderabad. Govinda dāsī: Allahabad? Prabhupada: Hyderabad, where we were working. Govinda dāsī: Hyderabad. Prabhupada: Hyderabad it is midland, Madhya Pradesh. Central India. Almost central. Paramahaṁsa: South central. Prabhupada: South central. So, six hundred acres there. We are going to develop a farm. Very nice climate, warm. India, everywhere warm. Severe cold, northern India. Paramahaṁsa: Some, yeah. Prabhupada: Otherwise, especially in Bengal, there is never. It is neither very hot. Paramahaṁsa: No. Prabhupada: Bombay also. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupada: In Bombay we have got huge property. It is worth now one crore rupees. And everyone is envious that we have got such a big property, and we have paid practically no price. They are envious. They are trying to harass us in so many ways. They . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone, they are envious how we got this nice property. Double like this, double . . . (indistinct) . . . this is two acres? Ambarīṣa: Yeah, two acres. Prabhupada: That is five acres, and all beautiful coconut tree, banana tree. Six buildings. Bombay, to get one apartment you require one lakh of rupees, and we have got six buildings. So the old tenants, they will not go, so I have construction of eight buildings, another big, big flat, so we can have more than five hundred devotees without any difficulty. I have got so many so much. Besides that, we are constructing other building. If you can develop your people, it will be source of very good income. (pause) That's all. Paramahaṁsa: That's all? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that's all. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupada: Bombay we have got very nice place, Māyāpur very nice place. You have seen Māyāpur? Ambarīṣa: No. I've just come back. Prabhupada: In Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana, our building is the tallest. *Siddha*-svarūpa: (aside) It's okay? Prabhupada: Ah. The governor stayed two days. Now perhaps we are going to have another good place, Kurukṣetra. Govinda dāsī: Kurukṣetra? *Prabhupada: Where Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken, personally. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). This is the first word of Bhagavad-gītā . That Kurukṣetra. (end) Conversation -- June 12, 1975, Honolulu Prabhupāda: You giving this theory that from the tree a man and a monkey came. So, where is that experiment? Where is that? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Sometimes it is seen that impersonalists, although they may be impersonalists, still they may not directly speak of themselves as being equal to Kṛṣṇa. They, it is sometimes found that impersonalists they don’t, they will not directly speak of themselves as being equal to Kṛṣṇa. They will not even mention. They wont even mention. Prabhupāda: Generally do. Govinda dasi: Śrīla Prabhupāda? So, our relationship with you as spiritual master has existed eternally in the past, or will exist eternally? Prabhupāda: That don’t bother with it. Go on, do with minimum. (long pause) *Past and present, you are present, the commentary is just carry out the orders, that's all. When you have accepted spiritual master, carry out, that's all. cakhu*-dān dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei . Past means that, then you admit to your disciple, that in the past you could not carry out, therefore accept another birth. So, carry out. That is the point. What is the use of talking past, present and future? ār nā koriho mane āśā . This is wanted. Don’t think of anything else. That is the point. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So, then if I’m worried about my past or my future . . .? *Prabhupāda: No, whatever is past is past. Now, I have got the knowledge, let me carry out. Cakhu*-dān , now I have got this real knowledge. What is the use of thinking of past ? In the past somebody was hippie was drinking. No, that world was past. Let me progress. Now let me do responsible thing. That is the point. Govinda dasi: Actually, I’m trying to understand the future of my misery. Prabhupāda: Oh, we do not think of future. If I work sincerely, then future is all right. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Bhaktivinode Thakura says . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . forget the past that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . sleeps, and the future ne’er . . . Prabhupāda: Why should we bother about the past? Past was not perfect. Therefore, I have got this, birth again . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the use of concocting? Whatever has passed has passed. Now let me be sincere. *Siddha*-svarūpa: And, and what is the basic reason for my concern for the future? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Siddha*-svarūpa: What would the . . .? Prabhupāda: For the future, let me do sincerely. Whatever future will be, that will be. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then I haven’t even . . .? Prabhupāda: If I do not go to Vaikuntha, doesn’t matter. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Still I shall carry out. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So I have to be free from all cares with my future . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . for myself. Prabhupāda: Yes. If, faith should be there, if I am working rightly, then my future will be, secure. That is future. I have taken to this path for going back to home, back to Godhead, so I am, if I am doing nicely, according to the instructions of . . . (indistinct) . . . why should he think of? And if I am not doing rightly, then . . . (indistinct) . . . this is called faith. Why should you bother about future? What is the reason? *Siddha*-svarūpa: If I, I, I would bother about my future . . . Prabhupāda: There is no question of bothering. *Siddha*-svarūpa: I mean, I care about my future when . . . Prabhupāda: If you care you do, just like Kṛṣṇa says: Past and future is explained there. Do this. Always chant, think of Me, that mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayam , be assured you will come to Me. So why don’t you do your duty? And Kṛṣṇa assures, they will come to Me, there is no doubt . . . (indistinct) . . . why should he bother for the future? If you do exactly according to the rules and regulations, then your future is guaranteed. Even it is not guaranteed, still I shall go on doing. And that is pure. It is guaranteed. Kṛṣṇa said, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayam , so why do you doubt? Why there should be doubt? Kṛṣṇa said it is guaranteed. Why should you bother about future? You, you bother whether you are doing rightly or not. That should be your business. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa assures. Were is doubt? Huh? The future is assured by Kṛṣṇa, and . . . why you are doubting? That you don’t believe in Kṛṣṇa. You have to see whether you are doing rightly what Kṛṣṇa says. That is your business. What is the use of thinking past, future, present? Do your duty as Kṛṣṇa says, as spiritual master says, then everything is all right. There is no question or doubt. Kṛṣṇa says, asaṁśayam, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayam. Asaṁśayam means without a doubt you will come to Me. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So if I . . . Prabhupāda: And ours should be that, it is not a bargain, that Kṛṣṇa is assuring, therefore I will have to serve Kṛṣṇa. That even I will go to hell, it doesn’t matter. That is my duty. Kṛṣṇa is assuring, that is all right, but even, some reason or Kṛṣṇa doesn’t drive me, its still I shall do. *Siddha*-svarūpa: If I don’t do that, it means imperfection in love then. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: I’m still self-centered. Prabhupāda: That, that is taught by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: Kṛṣṇa whatever you like . . . (indistinct) . . . still I cannot give up . . . (indistinct) . . . to make bargain with Kṛṣṇa, then you are not a pure devotee. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Actually, the spiritual world is that dimension where that pure love exists. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no bargaining. Oh if Kṛṣṇa does it, then I shall do it. That is business. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is not love. Let Kṛṣṇa do whatever He likes. But Kṛṣṇa says no, if you do, then you are surely coming to Me. Then where is the doubt? Do sincerely whatever you are asked to do through the spiritual master, through Kṛṣṇa personally, that is your . . . what will be the result or not result, I don’t know. That is pure. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Actually, even in the Bible it mentions that purity in one verse. There is the statement that we would rather be away from this body and at home with the Lord. We would rather be out of this body and at and at home with the Lord, but even if we are in this body, away from the Lord or at home with the Lord, our only ambition should be to please Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is pure. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Whereas in the previous statement there was still a tinge of desire for liberation from pain, freedom from the body, then in the next statement he says, but our only ambition should be, whether at home or, or in the body or whatever, that our only ambition should be to please Him. Prabhupāda: That is in the bhāgavata also. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhir hari*-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). The perfection is whether you have pleased Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Either this body or that body, here or there, it doesn’t matter. Whether Kṛṣṇa is pleased. That you have to see. So if Kṛṣṇa is pleased through the spiritual master, so if spiritual master is pleased, Kṛṣṇa is pleased. Because he is confidential servant. If the servant says, yes this man is nice, then Kṛṣṇa will accept him. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then if my, my happiness, or my questioning should not be whether or not . . . Prabhupāda: You have to strictly carry out faithfully. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . the orders of Kṛṣṇa and spiritual master, without any consideration. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Then that is perfection. And if you make your own idea, the spiritual master is not so intelligent, I am more than intelligent, I can do like this, then you are doomed. yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo . As soon as we manufacture, concoct, then . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then the relationship isn’t one of trying to gain something from my spiritual master, and worrying that in the future I will be able to gain . . . Prabhupāda: He has given you already. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: The gain is that now you carry out. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Simply a, a, a matter . . . Prabhupāda: Initiation means he has given this. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now you carry out the order. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then whether the relationship is eternal in my heart will be, depend upon whether or not I am desirous of pleasing him. Prabhupāda: That now you have got this relationship, that's all, eternal, not eternal. Why do you bother about this, all this? I have to do. This is my duty. That's all. Govinda dasi: I’m trying to ask this question because this is the question that I discussed with Goursundar, and that I was bewildered. Prabhupāda: Goursundar, what does he know? Govinda dasi: Enough to confuse me. Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. Why should discuss with Goursundar? He is a perfect man? Then why should you discuss with him? He is a rascal. Govinda dasi: Because he was saying that my attitude is very, is . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dasi: . . . sentimental. Because he was telling me that, that my faith is a sentimental thing. I was trying to understand that from a philosophical point of view in order to defend it. *Prabhupāda: So, what philosophy does he know? Why should you ask Goursundar? What does he know? If he has little intelligence, then you would not have given up Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He has no intelligence. He is a rascal. Mūḍhāḥ . That is our conclusion. Anyone who is not fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is a mūḍhāḥ , he is duṣkṛtino , sinful, narādhamāḥ , lowest of the mankind. This is our conclusion. That is the complaint of all other . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughing) We are, all of them we are taking them as mūḍhāḥ , rascal, narādhamāḥ , and they are posing themselves as very big important man in their society. And because they have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are accepting them as mūḍhāḥ . That is their concept. So they are all rejected by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is their complaint. They are trying to make a so*-called mutual present society. You are welcome. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But we are saying nobody is right except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So, that has become their concept. Everybody is a rascal . . . (indistinct) . . . that is their concern. This, preaching goes on, then . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Thank you. Govinda dasi: Thank you. (offers obeisances) Devotees: (Background exchange) Prabhupāda: Now, They are influenced by rubber tree. Govinda dasi: Wow. Prabhupāda: I have seen it. So many rubber trees. They have got rubber trees, extensive. This exploitation is forbidden in the *Īśopaniṣad*. Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam (ISO 1). So, all over the world, especially in the eastern world, the, oil in the beginning of the eastern world . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . or in, in the, in the eastern world, not in the western world. Where is that? They have made a line, international? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Oh, I don’t know where it begins. Some . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Somewhere . . . (indistinct) . . . you get, crossing that line you will get one day advantage. So, anyway, this is the eastern part. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Up to America, mainland, it is western. This Hawaii and Japan, South Pacific, they are all eastern. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The, in Southeast Asia the . . . they are finding out that one of the main reasons the Americans wanted to stay in Vietnam was because there's the vast oil that is offshore from Vietnam. Right offshore in Vietnam there's vast oil reserves that the American oil companies had already spent, they had invested millions and millions of dollars in setting up oil rigs and they had to all leave. Not only oil, but different types of trees, and, what is the underground products, mining, different, different things that was there. That there were big companies that were involved, big American companies that were involved in trying to make . . . (indistinct) . . . even they wanted tourism. In the future, they are hoping to be able to have hotels in Vietnam, to exploit in that way. Prabhupāda: They make big, big hotels in the Philippines. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now they left. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Govinda dasi: So, the whole world is, is being pushed by big business then? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That the Vietnam war was primarily desired by the big corporations. They wanted Vietnam to exploit in that way. Also they made money simply from there being a war. If there was no war, they would be unemployed. That in America's . . . Prabhupāda: That means the American people in order to make money, war material, they engage their men to kill. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Otherwise there is no movement of the economy. Govinda dasi: They kill their sons for big business? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, the, the economy doesn’t move. It's like you have to have people working, so they, they, they, they have them producing something which is consumable, and there's nothing more consumable than a bomb or a helicopter, so that they produce thousands of helicopters and bombs. Just like now, they’re producing jets. Here's France, produces a particular kind of jet, and America produces a particular type of jet, and Belgium is going, needs to buy some jets, so the American producers, American companies and the French companies they are fighting, trying to convince the Belgians. There's somebody to buy our jet, and then the whole, there's a whole business trying to sell different war, war materials to all these other countries now. And they are hoping, of course the businessmen are hoping that they’ll use them up and buy new ones. So, they, they, they need to have small wars. Prabhupāda: So, you have seen the, the other, big island, they are producing sugar? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: The same thing you have seen, in Fiji . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . they do not require. First of all produce your own food. No. They are not interested. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Hm. Prabhupāda: The capitalists, they take the land. They want the business, that unnecessary. Here also they are producing pineapple more than necessary. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Much more. Prabhupāda: They are wasting the land. People should be satisfied, first of all, producing his necessities, that they will produce, nothing more. Whatever they require. But if, as soon as a third party, capitalist, becomes interested, he will induce them to produce unnecessary things, and necessary things will stop. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Actually, this is a, this is a, it's being recognized. In fact, one congress, a congressman, I read, had an article and was asking, was actually saying that the entire western way of life is in jeopardy, that it is, it is a dangerous point, because our entire economic system is based upon the, the production and consumption of unnecessary objects. Prabhupāda: That's right. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They make some object, and then they make a commercial and tell them you want this, and the people they get it. Prabhupāda: Yes. And when he is induced, they offer them money, they requested that television, he shall have to pay. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Expense. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: He doesn’t require, neither he has got money, so there is advertisement, television is very good, he is induced, and the bank says yes you can take money, so he becomes perpetual debtor. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That's right. Prabhupāda: So, he has to work. He cannot sit down. He has to go, so, so, so, so, so. *Siddha*-svarūpa: He has no choice. Prabhupāda: Where is freedom? *Siddha*-svarūpa: They are speaking of freedom, ha. Prabhupāda: Simply exploit. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. They actually are saying that they want the freedom to exploit, and if there is a government where there is no freedom to exploit, they will be unhappy. They will not be able to enjoy life as much. Devotee (3): It's another way of keeping the people subjugated. (break) *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . matter. Devotee (3): There's a famous lady atheist, who, who makes her, who makes her business by defeating theists. She travels from place to place, and gives . . . Prabhupāda: Whether she will come here? Devotee (3): I’ve forgotten her name. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Madeline Murray. Govinda dasi: Madeline Murray. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Madeline Murray. Govinda dasi: She's a demon. *Siddha*-svarūpa: She, she's the one who pushed very strongly against prayer in school. Prabhupāda: So, why, why, why not come here and stop ours? *Siddha*-svarūpa: If she could, she probably would try to. Govinda dasi: She is mean. Prabhupāda: Then she will be trying for . . . that we are praying, so you come and stop our praying. by your reason and . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: We are inviting. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That would be a great meet, meeting. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: She's, she must be really puffed up by now. Prabhupāda: But why she does not come to us, if she is traveling? *Siddha*-svarūpa: She's concerned mainly with Christianity. Her concern is Christianity. Prabhupāda: Her, her challenge is about God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) . . . that somebody dares to convince that there is no God. Why not invite? Govinda dasi: She is very offensive. Prabhupāda: What is her philosophy? She has no book? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Her philosophy, no, her philosophy is that there is no God, and that . . . Prabhupada: She has written any book? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Probably. Govinda dasi: She's, I’ve never read any book, but I’ve read about her. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Probably she's written a book, and the idea, she simply, somehow or other by words defeats. Devotee (3): Her, her appearances, it becomes an art, that's all. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Devotee (2): But she uses foul language and . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, she's very gross. Govinda dasi: She's very gross. Devotee: Offensive, very offensive. Govinda dasi: Very offensive, just like, offensive to . . . Prabhupāda: So, why not defeat her? You are also philosopher. Devotee (2): D She's . . . Prabhupāda: You have learned so much. Defeat her. *Siddha*-svarūpa: (laughing) Like hit her over the head. Govinda dasi: (laughing) She's really, she's really a gross lady. She's, she curses and calls . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . what education you will give. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You call her. Come here. We shall talk with you. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is, this is the real business. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. She, she's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Malati, yourself, Malati also . . . (indistinct) Govinda dasi: Malati? Prabhupāda: Yes, she can argue very nicely. Syamasundara's wife. Govinda dasi: She's in India still? Prabhupāda: She is in Europe. Govinda dasi: Oh, I heard she has a Sankirtana Party, on traveling . . . Prabhupāda: Or Yamuna. Let, let her argue with our girl students. If the girls are defeated then the next . . . if they are defeated, then they can do. I think our girl, girl students will be sufficient, defeat. Govinda dasi: I know my position as an agnostic was very miserable, and the one thing that I was so impressed when I first met you was that there is God. Prabhupāda: There, therefore our students, they, they have found life in Kṛṣṇa. Govinda dasi: Yes. That's . . . Prabhupāda: Your study is perfect. You are realizing the, the value of life. Now, those who have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they have found, yes there is . . . (indistinct) Govinda dasi: I can remember, I was just thinking, I was overjoyed to find out there's a God after all, and there's someone who can tell me about it. But a lot of times people just don’t have that, and they become disillusioned, and therefore they become atheists. Prabhupāda: We have got typical example, God, Kṛṣṇa. (break) *Siddha*-svarūpa: We never make the offense of saying the spiritual master is God. It is a great offense. So, we understand the spiritual master is not omnipresent like Kṛṣṇa, yet, this is my understanding, nonetheless I offer my prasādam , my obeisances, every day to you no matter where I am in the world. Prabhupāda: So, while you go on serving spiritual master, then you will get . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: But this brahmacārī has heard and understood that you are omnipresent, and I have heard, from my understanding, that you are not omnipresent like Kṛṣṇa. So now there's two, of course, the matter, the fact of the matter is, that we offer you our prasādam . That is the most, that's of course the important thing. You take our service, what little it is, and bring it to Kṛṣṇa. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . omnipresent, through . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent. So, the servant knows the master's . . . (indistinct) . . . master, He is omnipresent, and he is, the servant, he takes the knowledge from Him. Just like the magistrate, he judges by taking witness, so we can with Kṛṣṇa. He is omnipresent, so if Kṛṣṇa informs him, because he is His confidential servant, this man is doing this, so he is everywhere. He reveals . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: I, I . . . Prabhupāda: Not that I require personally to be omnipresent, but Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent, and I am Kṛṣṇa's servant, so He can inform me. That this is, this man is doing this. So therefore, conclusion is he also is omnipresent. Just like we are talking of moon and . . . (indistinct) . . . I gave them proof, but I am talking on the basis of my spiritual master, my guru . . . (indistinct) . . . he is talking on the basis of his guru , his guru , his guru , this is called paramparā . So, ultimate guru is Kṛṣṇa. So naturally if Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent, the servants are also. What is the difficulty? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Part of my answer, you can criticize, was that . . . Prabhupāda: So, this is the basic principle. Now you can answer in differant ways. Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent, and guru is His confidential servant. Therefore, all information comes to him by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Personally doesn’t require to be omnipresent. There is no question, but because he is confidential servant of Kṛṣṇa, therefore automatically he is informed everything. kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya . That is a fact. Did you not see that. Therefore he is as good as Kṛṣṇa. He knows everything through Kṛṣṇa, therefore he is as good as, but he is not as good as Kṛṣṇa. This is called, inconceivable one and different. *Siddha*-svarūpa: I have given that answer, but, but I was perplexed that I have heard it, there was another . . . (pause) Prabhupāda: Just another? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Another view. There was two. I, it appeared as if there were two viewpoints. He would say one thing, and I would say another, but actually acintya-bheda . . . Prabhupāda: This is the real answer. That a servant cannot be as good as the master, but the master, if he takes a servant as confidential, then he is as good as. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That is the meaning of confidential. Prabhupāda: Yes. If somebody is very confidential, I can disclose all the secrets. *Siddha*-svarūpa: He places his confidence in the servant. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dasi: It seems that I remember you once saying that if one, if you follow the instructions of guru , if you following instructions of the spiritual master, he can be present in your heart. He will be present, remain present in your heart always. Is this correct? Prabhupāda: His, everything will be revealed to him. tasyaite kathitāḥ hy arthāḥ prakāśante mahātmanaḥ (ŚU 6.23), all these śāstra will be revealed to follower. yasya deve parā bhaktir . Govinda dasi: Principle of guru is within one's heart through Kṛṣṇa, or is it that the personality, you, as our spiritual master, remain always with us if we are following your instructions? *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are singing daily that, daily singing, you do not understand. guru*-mukha-padma-vākya, āra nā kariha mane . And daily singing . . . (indistinct) . . . what is that singing? Do you know that? Devotee (3): No. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They have just start(ed), I didn’t learn that until I came to LA. Prabhupāda: First . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: That song book? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Might be with Śruta-kirtī . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is the business of the disciple. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Do you have the . . . Prabhupāda: You believe, you have to believe it, that spiritual master is omnipotent, then how he can defy the orders of spiritual master? That is the system. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The.. Prabhupāda: He will defy the spiritual master's order because he knows that he is not omnipotent. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That he has no faith. *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's uh, the difficulty for people is how to appreciate that the servant of God is . . . Prabhupāda: As good as God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . is as good as God, and yet still not . . . Prabhupāda: God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: God is dominator, yeah. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: And so they always want to, we want to see it as either or, either you are God or you’re not God. Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, as good as God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not directly says he is God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: As good as. Govinda dasi: I don’t understand this very well, because this is what the, what the, the argument that I had with Goursundar recently. Prabhupāda: So this is duty. Govinda dasi: I mean, when I would speak of our spiritual master, the only way by which we can attain pure devotional service. Prabhupāda: Hm. Govinda dasi: I bow to his lotus feet with great awe and reverence. By his grace one can cross the ocean of material . . . Prabhupāda: You read the original. Govinda dasi: Prabhupāda: The translation. Govinda dasi: The lotus feet of our spiritual master are the only way by which we can attain pure devotional service. I bow to his lotus feet with great awe and reverence. By his grace one can cross the ocean of material suffering and obtain the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to his lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires. Prabhupāda: ār nā koriho mane āśā , this is not translated. *Govinda dasi: cakhu*-dān dilo jei . . . Prabhupāda: No, the previous, ār nā koriho mane . . . Govinda dasi: janme janme prabhu sei . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, before that. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The other verse you just read, there was one line, he says it's not translated. Govinda dasi: je prasāde , which one. I don’t know. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The last one of, read the . . . *Govinda dasi: The last line? śrī*-guru-caraṇe rati, ei se uttama gati, je prasāde pure sarva āśā ? Prabhupāda: Hm. What is it? Read the translation. My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to his lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires. Prabhupāda: Ār , that ār nā koriho is not covered. I am not, don’t expect anything. ār nā koriho, ār means anything else. Govinda dasi: My only wish. Prabhupāda: That's all . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Comes, seems to come to a matter of faith in the, in other words, if I am still . . . Prabhupāda: Faith is a beginning. Ādau śraddhā . *Siddha*-svarūpa: The, the prayer was, my only wish. That means then if there's no wish for sense gratification or salvation . . . Prabhupāda: No wish. Simply you have to carry out the order. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then that means that the primary cause of any agitation or disturbance within myself concerning my spiritual master, doubt is, must be coming from the desire for salvation or sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Salvation is also sense gratification. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. So I’m worrying that I will not be saved. So that I am concerned . . . Prabhupāda: Salvation desirable, salvation is also sense gratification. There is some demand. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That pure devotee has no demand. Only to serve. That is devotee. He has no such demand. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then he's not in anxiety whether or not . . . *Prabhupāda: Why there should be anxiety? He has no demand, therefore he is peaceful. Kṛṣṇa*-bhakta-niṣkāma, ataeva 'śānta . Why Kṛṣṇa-bhakta is very peaceful? Because he has no demand. Why there should be demand? They simply satisfied with the service. That is devotee. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Whereas . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone has demand. The karmīs they are seeking after comfortable condition. All these karmīs they are struggling, there is demand. This life comfortable, and those who will believe in next life, then they want to go the heavenly planets. So, they have got demands. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: karmīs, jñānīs . That they want to become one, want to become one with the Supreme. That they also demand. Big demand. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They want to be free from pain. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. They are also trying to get released from this painful condition, karma . So, but so they try hard by doing this, doing that to become happy, when they fail, then they want to . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Cease to exist. Prabhupāda: Yes. To become one . . . (indistinct) . . . foremost enjoyer. And yogīs also. They want to show generally material power. There is demand to become very prominent. Oh, this yogīs can . . . (indistinct) . . . he can do this, he can do that. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . of everyone. So, everyone has got, karmīs, jnanis . Only pure devotees, they are, they are simply satisfied to carry out the orders of Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore, they have no demands . . . (indistinct) . . . and anyone who is wanting something predominance, materially or spiritually, they are not pure devotee. They are impure. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That means that I still have the des . . . where I am the most important person in my life . . . Prabhupāda: That where is Paramahaṁsa. Govinda dasi: Um. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Where I am the most important person in my life rather than Kṛṣṇa. As long as I am the most important person . . . Prabhupāda: No, I cannot be important, but I want to become important by utilizing Kṛṣṇa. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that's right. That I’m seeing Him as a supplier for me, to supply me with . . . *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, for my business is, that Kṛṣṇa wants this, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), and sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Kṛṣṇa wants this, so our main business is to request people that you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, you do it. That is our business. Kṛṣṇa wants it, so we are canvassing. Not that I will become as important as Kṛṣṇa. That is our business. My business is to serve. Where he is? Govinda dasi: He was eating, and he's . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, he is eating? Govinda dasi: . . . washing his mouth, and coming. Prabhupāda: All right, eating, that's all right. (pause) That is pure. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So isn’t, is . . . Prabhupāda: So I, each pure devotee does not care what is going to happen to him. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, true. Prabhupāda: Doesn’t matter to him. I must carry the order of my spiritual master. That's all. This is pure. Just like I can carry. When my spiritual master asked me to do this, let me go out, I never expected that it will be so successful . . . never expected, because all my previous godbrothers and all the svāmīs , they could not do anything. Ah, so you have taken your food? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Where is our Śruta*-kīrti? Paramahaṁsa: He's just finishing. Prabhupāda: Huh? Paramahaṁsa: He's just finishing, prasādam . Prabhupāda: Oh. Paramahaṁsa: We usually leave in a few minutes. Prabhupāda: That a, I mean to say when they ask question, I speak, you should also come. Is, is it for, only for them, not for you? Paramahaṁsa: I can come, but I usually do my work during this time . . . Prabhupāda: That's . . . Paramahaṁsa: . . . 'cause you're, I can’t type when you’re taking rest, so I usually type, do all the typing this time, and we just started taking prasādam early. Prabhupāda: If you are busy that is another thing. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: If you are not busy, you should take advantage. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Śruta*-kīrti does not type. Paramahaṁsa: No, he could come. *Siddha*-svarūpa: This eagerness to come in when you are talking with someone is, is all right to take advantage of? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): That's nice. Devotee: (laughs) Sometimes we are, we go. I, I think . . . Prabhupāda: There is no secret talk. It is all for everyone. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Jaya . Prabhupāda: If I don’t talk, that is another thing. When I talk, hear. So, except pure devotee, everyone is sense gratification. He wants something to satisfy his senses. This is . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then my doubts spring up, I am doubting that my spiritual master will be able to satisfy my salvation or sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Some way or other . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah I am . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . everyone is trying to satisfy. That is the material disease. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That I am the center of my life, rather than Kṛṣṇa. I am better, that I . . . Prabhupāda: No, no question of better. You are never better. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Think . . . (indistinct) . . . like that. *Siddha*-svarūpa: No, but in my mind I may be thinking that I am . . . Prabhupāda: No, at least let me become Kṛṣṇa. That the Māyāvādī, they want to become one with God, and at this side they have failed to become as powerful as Kṛṣṇa. Now they are thinking, by perfection I shall become as good as. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . he never thinks that I cannot become so perfect that I becomes one with God. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is Māyāvādī. He is such a foolish, that if I am as good as God, then how I have become dog? But he has no sense. God never, never becomes. They, they say also that God becomes dog. Dog is God, and He is, it is His pastime. He is playing like dog. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Hm. *Prabhupāda: That is the Vivekananda, daridra*-nārāyaṇa . Nārāyaṇa is playing the part of a daridra . So these things are going on. These rascals. *Siddha*-svarūpa: But if Kṛṣṇa desires to play the pastime of anything, He never forgets. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: If He, if He does desire to play the pastime . . . Prabhupāda: Whether he desires or not desires, how do you know? *Siddha*-svarūpa: I was thinking of Varāha. Prabhupāda: That is the thing. Varāha is not ordinary pig. *Siddha*-svarūpa: No. Prabhupāda: So why you nonsensical think that Varāha is as good as a pig? *Siddha*-svarūpa: No. *Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. He is not a stool*-eater pig. He looked like, Varāha, a gigantic boar, to lift this world, so why you are thinking Varāha was a pig? That is offense. Because He has assumed this form of a pig, a big boar, does it mean that He is boar? *Siddha*-svarūpa: No. Prabhupāda: Then? (pause) This Māyāvāda philosophy very dangerous. They are the first class atheist. Paramahaṁsa: What's the difference between a brahmavādī and a Māyāvādī? Prabhupāda: Hm? Paramahaṁsa: What is the difference between a Brahmavādī and a Māyāvādī? Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī thinks that Kṛṣṇa is also māyā . That is theory. Paramahaṁsa: And the Brahma . . . Prabhupāda: Because, because the, actually the same thing, that brahman is impersonal. The origin, the Absolute is impersonal, but when He comes as person, He accepts a material form. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So it's the same. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's the same, same philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is māyā . Paramahaṁsa: So Brahmavādī and Māyāvādī, there's no difference at all? Prabhupāda: Practically there is no difference. Paramahaṁsa: Uh, what the Brahmavādī . . . Prabhupāda: Brahmavādī also does not believe in the personal identity of Kṛṣṇa. And the Māyāvādīsays yes, He comes sometimes as person, but He accepts the material form. That is māyā. Paramahaṁsa: So the Brahmavādī is also big offender, just like the Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: No. Brahmavādī is less intelligent. They do not go further than brahman realization. But these people they think, actually there is no difference. Only difference is that, that they think brahman is final, and that is Māyāvādī too. Paramahaṁsa: But the Māyāvādīs also, they think like that also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: So uh . . . Prabhupāda: So take it as one. What does it matter? *Siddha*-svarūpa: What is the, why discriminate? Paramahaṁsa: Well it seems like there's a different type of, there seems like there's two varieties of impersonalists. One is . . . Prabhupāda: What is that variety? Paramahaṁsa: Oh one is a demon, practically, because he is such a . . . Prabhupāda: Why is actual demon? Paramahaṁsa: Because he is so offensive, he is directly denying the Personality of Godhead existing. Prabhupāda: But he may not know it. He has no advancement of knowledge, so why do you call him demon? Paramahaṁsa: Well usually that because Lord Caitanya says that if you even hear what they have to say, then your whole spiritual life can be ruined. *Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . Māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). Paramahaṁsa: But there are some impersonalists who become great devotees. Prabhupāda: Well that is simply the same difference. The stool's upper side and lower side. That's all. If you say the upper side of the stool is very good, the lower side is not so good. So no difference. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So, it is not good. Neither acceptable. Either the Māyāvada or this, this brahmavāda . Paramahaṁsa: The, the reason I was asking about that, because in one purport in the *Gītā* , you say that if one has no opportunity to meet a pure devotee of the Lord and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then perhaps impersonal practice is better, or not better, but better than nothing. Prabhupāda: Yes. At least they are accepting spirit. Just like this Śaṅkarācārya says, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , they come to the platform of truth. Spirit is the truth. It is the basic principle. So permanent or nonpermanent. Material means nonpermanent. Spiritual means permanent. So that means they come to the spiritual platform. Light, just like the sunlight. That this is better than darkness, but because you are in the sunlight does not mean you are in the sun. The sun is there, so you have come to the sunlight, that it does not mean that you have reached the sun planet, or the sun god. But it is better than the darkness. To remain in darkness, that is very troublesome. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So in comparison to the darkness, the sunlight is better. Paramahaṁsa: course . . . Prabhupāda: That the sunlight does not mean that you are in the sun globe, or you are seeing the sun god. In this way try to understand. Paramahaṁsa: But in . . . *Prabhupāda: Light is better than darkness. Material conception of life, that is most ignorant, most fallen condition. So, those who have come to brahma*-jñāna , they are better than these rascals, those who are completely blind. Paramahaṁsa: But then it becomes very difficult for them to accept devotional service, if they’re in that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: . . . Māyāvādī . . . Prabhupāda: That, that therefore they, they require the association of a devotee. *Paramahaṁsa: That another part, in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it says that the, actually the gross materialists are better than the Māyāvādīs. They are more sincere than the Māyāvādīs. Prabhupāda: Because they sometimes defy Kṛṣṇa and fall down. Therefore they fall down. They are innocent. They want bodily comfort, that's all. They do not commit any offense. Paramahaṁsa: The gross materialist? Prabhupāda: Yes. They are after bodily comfort. Paramahaṁsa: But the Māyāvādīs have opportunity? Prabhupāda: Māyāvādīs they are defying, that Kṛṣṇa, they are thinking, I am as good as Kṛṣṇa. So that is very offensive. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Whereas the gross materialists aren’t thinking of Kṛṣṇa at all. Prabhupāda: Ah. So, even they are aware that the Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . not interested, we want our car, eating. They do not commit offense. Rather they chant Kṛṣṇa, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is so powerful, that"s all right.’ That is also good. They are not interested in Kṛṣṇa, but if they say, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is like that", so that is good for them. But these rascals they are claiming, "We are as good as Kṛṣṇa". That is great offense. Kṛṣṇa aparādha . Purposeful. They do not know about Kṛṣṇa, so therefore not so aparādha . They say: "All right, Kṛṣṇa is very good, that"s a fact, but we are not interested. We are interested with our car and skyscraper buildings. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.’ And if he is good it's all right. They are not so offensive. But these rascals are claiming, "Kṛṣṇa and myself the same". Paramahaṁsa: So better if they remain gross materialists than become a Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is said the gross materialism is better than Māyāvādī. They are speculator, therefore he is . . . (indistinct) . . . he is a rascal. Then defy these arguments. (end) Conversation -- June 14, 1975, Honolulu Devotee: Japa class (chanting in background) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Japa Prabhupāda: So just you are seeing advertising on the road, telephone company. If you have got some problem do not hesitate to call. So what is the problem? What is your problem? . . . you cannot say anyone? What is your problem. Of course that is especially for the devotees. But the common man what is the problem? Devotee: Death, Śrīla Prabhupāda Prabhupāda: Mm? Devotee: Death . . . birth death old age Prabhupāda: Yes . . . death, Nobody wants to die, that's a fact. They are manufacturing medicine. So many preventive processes to check death, old age, disease. These are the problems but where is the solution? The telephone company advertises, but is there any solution of this problem in this material world, by the material scientists? Try to understand this fact, they can give you facility and may bluff you that this is the solution. But the real problem remains the same. You should always keep in view that the material scientist, leaders they cannot solve the real problem. That real problem can be solved by Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Try to understand this. If you have any questions you can ask? This is our challenge. It is not challenge it is fact. They can challenge whatever they like but . . . (indistinct) . . . but these problems. No telephone company can give us information for that how these problems can be solved. This is our problem we don't want to die. Can you give me any information? They'll not hear but you can inform the telephone company that here is an institution which can solve it. If we keep our problem always in conscious. They will give us facilities like the Karāndhara has told us that they have manufactured aeroplanes that can run at . . . what is that 14? 14 hundred miles an hour. So one can come from Paris to Los Angeles in two hours. But that is not solution of our problems that is increasing another problem and the Government is objecting that such planes are running then there will be so much catastrophe. The living conditions, that is creating another problem. And another problem means death, ultimately death. All problems are summarized into death Mṛtyuḥ, mṛtyuḥ death takes from us everything finished. Your . . . all arrangements for solving problems are taken away. Many leaders came within this world, Hitler, Churchill, Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, everyone tries to, Lenin, solve this problem, the problems are there but they left defeat. People may say that your this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement also will not solve the problems for everyone. But that is not the fact, the fact is whoever will take it seriously his problems will be solved. If everyone takes it seriously then every ones problems will be solved. Bhāgavat , now we are publishing with original verse, transliteration word to word meaning. Not for selling, this for you. We are taking so much trouble for translating, giving word to word meaning trying to explain. Not that we are doing all this things for doing some good business. It is not meant for business it is really meant for our students. So if you find out time to study each and every śloka , what is the difficulty? Hm? Is there any difficulty? (Indistinct) So this . . . always engaged. Always engaged we have got sufficient engagement reading, distributing, chanting, saṅkīrtan . If you reduce the eating, sleeping, mating, that is spiritual life. The more you reduce the animal part of us. This is animal part, eating sleeping mating and defending. This is animal part but the human part of life is to develop your dormant Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. This is the chance, human life is the chance. Greater intelligence is human, to develop your human part of life, not to develop your animal part. Then you are misusing, misuse. The modern civilization they are giving facility to develop animal part. Just like we saw in the beach, boy and girl they are lying in an open place embracing one after another. This is animal part of life. Just like dog they've no shame for sex life on the street. The human life is not meant for that we have got also sex life but not like that. But the modern civilization advancement means why not? (laughter) Just like . . . don’t laugh this serious. Just John Lennon he is standing naked. So they are thinking this is advancement of civilization, to increase the animal part of it, that is the defect of the modern . . . in spite of nice arrangement for education, or comfortable life, the tendency is to increase the animal part of it. You should know all this, you should not be captivated by this animal part. The human part of life is different, otherwise what is the difference between cats and dogs and hogs and human society? The human part of life is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, without Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are simply in the animal kingdom. Is that alright or if there any questions, you can ask them? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Certainly. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, provided they take it seriously. Otherwise if they keep their mentality differently then according to mind one has to get a body. But just like so many boys they come here in the beginning out of curiosity, but gradually they get the chance to become a devotee. Similarly if they take the chance then they will be liberated. They come out of curiosity but if they take it seriously then they will be liberated. Just like hospital is meant for curing the disease. So one should take the treatment if he simply goes and visits the hospital and thinks now I am cured how it can be. Hospital is . . . suppose if I advertise that anyone who comes to this hospital he will be cured of his disease. That's a fact, but if he thinks that I have comes here, now I am going. Then how he will be cured? You see Jaganātha on the Ratha Yātrā, his way for liberation is open. But if he comes back again and entangles himself . . . then? One goes to the doctor and he gives injection the disease is cured, but again he comes back and does the same thing so that he develops this disease again. So who's fault is it? This is called pratiñṭā . Pratiñṭā means, elephant takes bath very nicely and as soon as he comes on the bank of the river or the lake, he takes dust and throws (break) again. If we do that then we shall remain always dirty. We go take bath, clean but don't take dirt again. That is not going on. They become immediately mukta , liberated but they come, again become entangled. If it is a fact seeing Jaganātha is mukta , that how easy he comes to mukta but if he again comes to māyā then who can take it. Just like we are following the path of liberation but if you again come back to māyā then where is your liberation? Why Jaganātha in the Ratha here but if somebody comes here and sees the path of liberation is open, now he should protect himself. Just like disease, fever it's subsided, now one should be careful not to relapse again. That care is in my hands, everyone's hands and if you become prone to relapse again, then again the same thing. Just like in Christian church they confess for that is injunction. That's alright after confessing the sins are excused. That's a fact, but if he comes back, again commits the sin, then what is the account? But they are happy in that way. Then after one week you can go to the church, "And confess my sins". Then everything will be neutralized. This is alright, suppose on Sunday you become free from all contamination of your sins. On Monday, you again do the same thing so you become again become contaminated and say on Tuesday you should die then you are dying with sin. Is it not? Then what is your condition? If God or Christ excuses of your sinful life that's alright but when you come back you don't commit again sin then you are alright. But we are taking it as a business, that we go on Sunday naturalize all sins and come back again and do the same thing. So from logical point of view, suppose you do the same sinful activity and if you die immediately then you'll die with sinful activities and go to hell. What benefit is derived by confessing in the church? This business is going on. Now I have seen Jaganātha my liberation is guaranteed now I can do anything. This mentality, this mentality is not really nice. You have seen Jaganātha your sinful activities are now neutralized but don't commit again. Now make progress then your liberation will be there, is it clear? The chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Mantra, one chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is sufficient to make us pure from all sinful activities reaction. But if we commit sin again in the hope that because I'm chanting this will be neutralized and that is the greatest sin. So one side you should chant always Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra so that you may not fall down and other side you should be careful. No illicit sex life, no intoxication, no meat eating, in this way if you carefully make progress then your liberation is guaranteed. Just like doctor, if you go to a doctor for treatment of the disease he gives you medicine. At the same time he prohibits you, don't do this. So you take medicine and don't do this, follow these instructions, you are cured, yes. But if you don't follow the don't do this and don't take the medicine regularly then how you can expect cure? *It maybe but it will take long time but if you want quick, take it seriously. Just like Dhruva Māhāraja in six months he saw God. In six months . . . (indistinct) . . . he followed self*-realization and if you don't follow the regulative principles and instruction then our liberation will be delayed. Otherwise it's guaranteed. Devotee: How do you develop . . . (indistinct) . . . knowledge. Prabhupāda: Seriousness, if you become serious then you will develop. Develop seriously, if you are fickle then how you can develop seriously. Therefore the injunction is we should be very serious to abide by the orders of the Spiritual Master then you are serious. If you think the spiritual master is a man like me why should I follow . . . (indistinct) . . . the instructions so strictly, then you are not serious. And what is the use of your . . . (indistinct) . . . this is seriousness and we are singing daily yasya prasādād bhagavat prasādo , what is the meaning of this? Devotee: By the mercy of the Spiritual master one receives the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So if you don't follow the spiritual master then how can you get His mercy? Mercy is always there but if you don't take it? Then what . . . (indistinct) . . . spiritual master or the father will do? You have to take it. That is civilization, therefore Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura says that the order of my spiritual master is my life. I do not know whether I get liberation or not that is not my business. My business is to carry out the order of my spiritual master, Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. If one is serious on this point then he is liberated. First of all we have to approach a spiritual master, who is actually spiritual master and then if he carries the order of the spiritual master then everything . . . (indistinct) . . . the same example first of all you find out a right physician and you put yourself under his treatment, follow his instruction and the disease is cured. But if you go to your false Physician or if you are false, then you become implicated . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . 45 minutes. Prabhupāda: I shall go. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- June 15, 1975, Honolulu (about Educational System) *Siddha*-svarūpa: I’d like to try to do what I can to, to, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Now this educational system should be changed. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that's actually . . . I was writing an article on the educational system and how it should be changed. Maybe even just for . . . print a few copies, just for teachers . . . Prabhupāda: No. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . or something. Prabhupāda: Of course, you can write articles, but that will not be effective unless your plan is practical. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. So perhaps I’m not . . . then, I’m not, you know, I’m not sure whether or not I, in other words, whether or not the process is . . . what I’m trying to . . . put the Bhagavad-gītā into this present school system or to simply have your own school system apart from it. Prabhupāda: They will not take. The teachers are also demons. They, they must be of ideal institution, ideal character to develop. If the teachers and the authority were actually sane men, then how things are happening like this? They do not have a . . . they are asuras . Practically they are saying that this is question of time. But they do not know how to rectify. They do not know. And if we suggest, they may not accept us, because they have no brain. Better to establish separate ideally. Example is better than precept. If you have got ideal example, that is better than you try to rectify them, because they have lost their brain. They have no good brain substance. Lost. Just like the USA and the Chinese, they are condemning excessive sex life, and the Europeans particularly, sex life is simply there. Actually, excessive sex life means slaughter. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. And that's like . . . *Prabhupāda: That's a fact. All good saṁskāra finished. They cannot become high*-graded, thoughtful men. Sometimes they become ruined. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: The semina is so valuable. They do not know that it . . . (indistinct) . . . of the whole system is marriage. Ūrdhva*-retāḥ . Instead of disturbing semina, the brahmacārī system was that semina goes to . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: The brain. Prabhupāda: . . . to the brain to make it more powerful. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Ūrdhva*-retāḥ . That brahmacārī life was ūrdhva-retāḥ . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Ud . . .? *Prabhupāda: Ūrdhva*-retāḥ . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Ūrdhva-retāḥ ? Prabhupāda: Retah means "semina," and ūrdhva means "up." Instead of going out, discharged, they utilize it. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The . . . the Chinese do that also, consciously. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Chinese practice ūrdhva*-retāḥ . Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Almost Indian. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: There was regular exchange of learned scholars between China and India very recently. So their culture is become similar to Indian culture. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) . . . in Japan also. They, from this Pacific; as soon as you go the other side, demoniac, and as soon as you keep this side, then this Oriental. *Siddha*-svarūpa: This is in the middle. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also Oriental. The Hawaiians, they are Oriental. Low class, caṇḍāla class; not brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya . They are low class, but still culture is Oriental. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They had some priestly class here. They are called kahunas. They were very similar to mystic yogīs also. They were always celibate. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said this is Oriental culture. I can see. *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's a, a school . . . Prabhupāda: Now they have been conquered by these Occidental culture. They are very aggressive. Colonization: bring more, more land, more money, more sex. Now it is becoming failure. They are creating hippies. Varṇāśankara. *Siddha*-svarūpa: In the Western world right now, or in a, in a couple of years, but right now it's beginning, the people are more and more and more going to be searching for a place where they can send their children to school. Prabhupāda: We should have ideal institution, varṇāśrama college. People will be very much happy to send their children. So you have got a group of men who, likes you, who follows you, could train up the teachers and open a varṇāśrama college anywhere, either in India or here, and make an ideal school. They will see how nice it is. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Would it be one . . . an institution that more for people who are living outside, public, to come and go, take class . . .? Prabhupāda: That way we could. But they come, they take their meals here . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Take their meals here, just like at school. Prabhupāda: Or make it public school, resident students. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Both. Prabhupāda: So they will be trained up right, just like you are training in Dallas: rise early in the morning and attend maṅgala-ārati , then in class, take nice prasādam . All facility—but this culture of . . . no smoking, no gambling. Better, male and female separate. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. And what about Deity worship? Prabhupāda: Deity worship there must be. Otherwise . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Right away. Prabhupāda: . . . they remain unclean. Deity worship means the habit becomes clean. If you stop Deity worship, then they will remain unclean. Because along with the Deity worship one has to rise early in the morning, take bath, attend maṅgala-ārati . This is another practical training—to keep him clean. Because here, your countrymen, they are very, very unclean. So this Deity worship will help them to remain clean. And then they will be able to understand this philosophy. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The reason I ask is because many people, especially people who are brought up Christians, they are have . . . they have a very difficult time. They can chant, and they might be interested in coming and being part of the classes, taking a class in the Bhagavad-gītā and so on, but they would have a very difficult time worshiping Deities. They . . . there's some block, because of the way . . . Prabhupāda: Then have kīrtana . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. That may be a . . . that may be . . . but rising early in the morning . . . Prabhupāda: Deity worship and kīrtana , becomes very ecstatic. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that is, in, in the . . . Prabhupāda: Without Deity, kīrtana is not very ecstatic. That is . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, there may be a way for beginners, for beginning people and people who are more into it, who are more advanced, that they can . . . Prabhupāda: No. If not Deity worship, keep pictures. That will be . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . and go on kīrtana . But the system of rising early, taking bath . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Right. Prabhupāda: . . . that should be done. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Clean head. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. All, even the students who . . .? Prabhupāda: The point is you want to change, then we have to set some authorized changes. If you keep them as it is, how they will be changed? *Siddha*-svarūpa: For students who are living outside, for instance, if it's . . . try to make it a public thing for a lot, many people . . . would, would those people also . . . would just the students who were living on the grounds—that is those students who were living there full, what do they call it, dormitory students who live in . . . uh—would, would even students from outside who were coming in to take classes be required, for instance, to shave their heads? Prabhupāda: Well, they must be clean. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And clean state of habit. It's . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Well, originally in schools, uh, what's . . . in ways that public schools . . . (break) (end) Arrival -- June 20, 1975, Los Angeles Jayatīrtha: Now everything is very nice. Prabhupāda: When you have come? Brahmānanda: I came Wednesday evening. Prabhupāda: So you look bright. Brahmānanda: Oh, thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, how is your preaching going on? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, thank you. (break) Prabhupāda: Nice now. Yes. So Sudāmā is doing nice? Jayatīrtha: Yes, he seems to be. He gave a very nice lecture the other night. He seems to be very—how would you say it—repatriated. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . is behind. Why? Jayatīrtha: Well, now we are catching up. Now things are becoming much more organized. But at the end in New York, things were very disorganized, and nothing was getting done. Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda Mahārāja, you kindly inquire where is the bottleneck. Brahmānanda: Yes, from what I have seen already. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: From what I have seen already, they are doing much more than before. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But still, you are behind so many books. Brahmānanda: They are giving one book now to the printer. Prabhupāda: Why they are seventeen books behind? *Brahmānanda: Hayagrīva is today finished the sixth volume of Madhya*-līlā . There are nine volumes altogether. Prabhupāda: No. I have heard that seventeen books are behind. Why? Very slow. You should rather want me to give more matter. But you are behind. What is the reason? Editorial department? Jayatīrtha: Now the editorial department is doing very good. Prabhupāda: But you are behind so many books. Jayatīrtha: The only thing which is a little slow now is the Bengali departments. But now, with Nitāi and Jagannātha coming, it should be . . . Prabhupāda: Bengali? Jayatīrtha: The Bengali editing is a little behind still. But the other departments are going at rate of two books a month. If we can now just bring the Bengali department . . . Prabhupāda: Books are not coming out. Jayatīrtha: No, because during the whole . . . until they left New York, hardly anything was getting done, and then they went to India, the whole Press, so nothing was getting done, and then they moved. So now they've been here about three weeks. Since they've been here almost one whole book has been finished, and the rate has become very much increased. *Prabhupāda: Bhāgavatam , Fifth Canto is finished, Sixth Canto half*-finished. *Jayatīrtha: Sixth Canto half*-finished? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: That's very nice. Prabhupāda: You have finished only Fourth Canto. Jayatīrtha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Fifth Canto not yet published. So Haṁsadūta has sent some copies of xerox. At all universities they are giving standing order—Oxford University, London University. In London, I hear, England, they are also giving standing order for Bhāgavatam and Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes. That's a fact. Satsvarūpa is coming tonight. Prabhupāda: And Dr. Judah has written one very nice book. I have read it. Brahmānanda: Dr. Judah's book. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I have read it. Did you like that book? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jayatīrtha: He's coming here in four days to see you. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very scholarly written, and he has appreciated our . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've met him many times. Every day we are performing the festival, kīrtana . He is very favorable. *Prabhupāda: He's a good man. He has studied the movement very fairly. He is only surprised, "How these drug*-addicted hippies have become devotee?" That is his surprise. He has mentioned that, that "We appreciate your movement, that you have turned so many drug-addicted hippies into devotee of Kṛṣṇa and in the service of humanity." That they are appreciating. And that is the fact. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ ( SB 5.18.12). If one is turned into devotee, then all the good qualities automatically become manifest. *That is the verdict of Bhāgavata. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā . Anyone who is not a devotee, his material qualification has no value. Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ . He is hovering over the mental plane. Therefore in your country, Western country, the so-called big, big philosophers, scientists, they could not do anything tangible, because they are hovering on the mental plane. (breaks squeal) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Manorathena. Mana means mind, and ratha means car. They are driving on the mental car. So mind is material. (pause) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja—selling more books? Jayatīrtha: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja is selling the most books. Prabhupāda: He is collecting $30,000? Jayatīrtha: How much you are collecting, Tamāla, last month? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we collected a lot. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The collection is very good. The books are selling. Prabhupāda: Selling amongst public or educational institution? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are selling to all classes of people—big books and small books. Prabhupāda: You have got now proper engagement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I started by doing this. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I started by doing this. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. No. You are feeling happy in this engagement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I'm happy to serve you, Prabhupāda. Whatever pleases you makes me happy. We are getting many new men. Now we have about 115 men. Prabhupāda: So, another bus? (chuckles) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, more and more buses. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Your country is full of buses. Yasmin deśe yad ācaraḥ . Your country is of motorcar, so take advantage of motorcar and utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. That is the tactics. Not that, "Oh, we have become Vaiṣṇava. We don't touch motorcar. It is material." This is not our philosophy. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta*-vairāgyam ucyate (Rūpa Gosvāmī). We can utilize everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa because we see everything Kṛṣṇa's. If the motorcar is there, it is for Kṛṣṇa. That is our mission. Karāndhara came there. Jayatīrtha: Karāndhara came. Yes. Prabhupāda: So he said: "I am again surrendered." (laughs) Jayatīrtha: I hope so. Prabhupāda: So he has gone to Tehran? Jayatīrtha: Yes. A letter just came from him recently saying that he was very enthusiastic in his service there. *Prabhupāda: He is business*-minded. Let him do business for Kṛṣṇa. Jayatīrtha: Yes. He says there is so much money there they don't know how to spend it. In Iran people have so much money they don't what to do with it. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are getting money for nothing. (laughs) Jayatīrtha: Yes. Right. It's coming out of the ground. Prabhupāda: And the Bengali saying, dhula mati bhatte kare mata : "They are catching dust and it is turning into coin." This proverb is there, dhula mati bhatte kare mato . He is thinking that, "I am taking some dust, but when it is in hand, it is coin." That is good time. And when it is bad time, if you catch coin and when it is in your hand, it is dust. We should think that time may also come. Yes. Because after all, it is Kṛṣṇa's desire, turn dust into coin, to turn coin into dust. So we should be always careful. If we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the coin will never turn into dust. Otherwise it can be turned. So you American, you are now full of coins. Before turning into dust, catch Kṛṣṇa with the coin: it will never turn into dust; it will remain coin. Hmm? I am very hopeful of the Americans. Because you are so nice devotees, you can keep your country coinful, no dustful. India is giving up Kṛṣṇa, and therefore they are turning into dust. Jayatīrtha: So much dust. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole thing is being done by the mercy of your books, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Well, it is not my book; it is Kṛṣṇa's book. I am trying my best to present it as it is, that's all. That much you can say my, but there is nothing mine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The effect of these books is hard to perceive immediately, because we can't imagine how . . . so many millions of books have gone out. In the future they will all fructify as devotees, the people who have read them. *Prabhupāda: Yes. When they will read, then they will get. Nowadays in the Sixth Canto, Fourth Chapter, the soul and how the soul is covered, that is being described wonderfully. Śrīmad*-bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam (SB 12.13.18). Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām . It is written by the most learned Vyāsadeva, vidvāṁs , and sātvata-saṁhitām . How merciful he was. He is still living, Vyāsadeva. He is still existing. Do you remember this verse? It is in the First Canto. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: First Canto. Prabhupāda: Anartha . The soul has been embarrassed, the unnecessary things. Just like a man is within the huge garbage. What is his position? If . . . you have got your garbage car, so within that, (chuckles) if a man is pushed . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Abominable. *Prabhupāda: It is like that. Twenty*-four elements. Five material elements, three subtle elements, then five working senses and five all knowledge-gathering senses—how many? Jayatīrtha: Eighteen. Prabhupāda: Eighteen? No. Jayatīrtha: So far. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-three, I think. Five gross elements, five senses . . . five knowledge-gathering senses, and five working senses, fifteen . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then the objects . . . Jayatīrtha: Three subtle . . . *Prabhupāda: The mind, ego and mahat*-tattva , eighteen, yes. And then five sense objects—the rūpa, rasa , form, taste, like that. Then twenty-three. Jayatīrtha: The aggregate, pradhāna . *Prabhupāda: Pradhāna , and then the soul, twenty*-five. Twenty-four and three guṇas . Three guṇas: sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . Twenty-seven. So twenty-seven layers of garbage. Underneath, the soul is there. What he will do? He is a small particle, soul, and he is covered with so many material elements. To come out of it is very, very difficult. But if one is engaged in devotional service he can come out immediately. Just like when one is spiritually perfect, he goes immediately to Kṛṣṇa, penetrating these material coverings of the universe. Immediately. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), immediately. That is spiritual force. So can you give me a list how much money you have to realize from our devotees who have taken money, loan? Jayatīrtha: Who have taken money in loan? You mean unauthorized loan? Prabhupāda: Not unauthorized, authorized. Jayatīrtha: Oh, how much Book Trust has loaned . . . Prabhupāda: Unauthorized also? There are? Jayatīrtha: How much Book Trust loans there are. You want to see the list of Book Trust loans? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jayatīrtha: Yes, we can give you that list. Prabhupāda: There is unauthorized loan also? Jayatīrtha: I thought you were . . . sometimes in the past from time to time these things have gone on. Prabhupāda: Past is all right. Have you received any news from Bombay? Brahmānanda: Yes, there's two letter from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Pālikā brought them. Pālikā has come. Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is the position there? Brahmānanda: Well, I haven't read the letters yet, but she was saying that on the whole, Mr. Mhatre now is diminishing. They have met with his superior in the party, and the superior is very much . . . he's not happy with Mr. Mhatre's activities and his reputation, and he says that in the forthcoming election he may not even put him on the election ballot. Prabhupāda: That will be right punishment for him. Then he will understand. That will be more than death. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, for a politician, that's the worst. Prabhupāda: Politicians, if they are refused political seat, that is more than death. Just like Kṛṣṇa was advising Arjuna that, "You are known as a great hero, and if you don't fight then they will blaspheme you like anything. So that will be more than death. Better die. When they will say nindanti , 'Oh, the Arjuna has become a coward. He could not fight. He will die,' so that blaspheme will be more than death." So by the grace of Kṛṣṇa it has come to the notice of the . . . Brahmānanda: The other party members, the party superiors, they are . . . his reputation is damaging their party. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: His activities are so unscrupulous. *Prabhupāda: And what about the N.O.C.? N.O? No*-Objection Certificate? *Brahmānanda: I don't know the details, but Pālikā said that they are . . . the holes have been dug and they're expecting to put the foundation in before the monsoon. And that there was some attempt to stop the some digging, but that has been defeated. When I was there, there was some question about getting the No*-Objection Certificate for the already-existing temple. Prabhupāda: Existing temple? Brahmānanda: Well, the little temple we have there now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every year it has to be renewed. *Brahmānanda: Yeah. So this year they have, by some trick, they have made it that the police must give their No*-Objection Certificate. Usually that is not required each year. Prabhupāda: They are harassing us in so many ways. Only in Bombay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means if we become successful finally, it will be a tremendous success, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Something very big will happen there. Brahmānanda: They've concluded that the opposition is not from the central government but from the local. Because the projects are going on without being hampered in any other places in India. It is only in Bombay that we are getting this difficulty. Prabhupāda: In central government that Indira Gandhi is now . . . Brahmānanda: Her position is now jeopardized. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? I didn't know that. Prabhupāda: She is convicted. Jayatīrtha: Election fraud. Prabhupāda: That election was not properly . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who has convicted her? Brahmānanda: High court. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How was . . . I am surprised they could do that. She's practically like a dictator. Prabhupāda: And she has been done in his (her) own city, Allahabad. Brahmānanda: They have lost the election, Congress Party. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, this is a recent, new election. Brahmānanda: Yes, in Gujarat. Prabhupāda: Now our next attempt will be Kurukṣetra . . . Brahmānanda: There is some proposal there? *Prabhupāda: . . . where Kṛṣṇa personally spoke Bhagavad*-gītā . Recently I have been in Kurukṣetra. You were . . . yes. So I have decided to do something there. Yes. Because Kṛṣṇa personally spoke there. Our two movements—we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā and we are holding Ratha-yātrā—all these two incidences took place at Kurukṣetra. Kurukṣetra is so important. Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma and His sister, on some occasion of lunar eclipse, they came from Dvārakā in a chariot, ratha , two brothers and sister, and that is the occasion of Ratha-yātrā. And the Vṛndāvana inhabitants, especially Rādhārāṇī, they came from Vṛndāvana to see Kṛṣṇa after long time. And she pleaded that, "Kṛṣṇa, You are the same Kṛṣṇa, I am the same Rādhārāṇī . . ." (coughing) Is there any water? No. "But this place is not the proper place. Let Us go to Vṛndāvana." That is Mahāprabhu's feeling. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You've expressed that in Madhya*-līlā , throughout there. *Prabhupāda: That Mahāprabhu's feeling of Kṛṣṇa is like that. Therefore He took part in the Ratha*-yātrā and invited Kṛṣṇa, "Come to Vṛndāvana." So these two important things took place in the Kurukṣetra. So we must have a very big temple there, and a varṇāśrama college. This is my desire. Kṛṣṇa's direct instruction, Bhagavad-gītā . It should be a historical . . . it is historical. People should come here as the most important historical place. And Gītā is well known all over the world. And Gītā begins with the word dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). So Kurukṣetra, in that sense very important. Brahmānanda: That was one of the first things you told us when you came, that Kurukṣetra is an actual place. There's a railway station. People can go there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: We had never known that. We thought it was something mythological or . . . Jayatīrtha: Allegorical. Prabhupāda: That is not. These political leaders, they have made it. (reading sign) Carpeterica. They manufacture carpet? We are already on the Venice road? No? Jayatīrtha: Yes. This is Venice Boulevard. Prabhupāda: You have got my passbook? Jayatīrtha: From the Liberty Bank? Prabhupāda: Not Liberty. Bank of America? Jayatīrtha: Passbook. Prabhupāda: Investment passbook? Jayatīrtha: Oh, from that savings account. Prabhupāda: I sent it to be made . . . for making it up to date. Jayatīrtha: You mailed it? Prabhupāda: No, I gave to Gurukṛpa, and he sent through somebody. Jayatīrtha: He did not give it to me. Maybe he gave it to Rāmeśvara. I'll check with him. I think he must have forgotten. Prabhupāda: So the engineering block is now occupied? Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes. As we go by it, you can see the big sign is there, "Bhaktivedanta Book Trust." Just over here to the left. (devotees exclaim) Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nice. You have never seen . . . *Prabhupāda: So that Bhaktivedanta go*-down has come here? No. *Jayatīrtha: No, go*-down is still there. This building is not large enough for that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have not seen this building yet, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh, here is for lease. (Tamāla Kṛṣṇa and Jayatīrtha discuss in background about leasing one of the buildings for a restaurant) (break) (Video start): Prabhupāda: . . . propensity, the tendency is there. Naturally I want to love somebody. It is not unnatural. When that love is reposed to Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect. The Māyāvādī, they are frustrated, therefore they want to make this love into zero. They cannot understand Kṛṣṇa's love with gopīs. They think it is another edition of this material . . . oh, how are you, Hayagrīva prabhu? How are you? You look better. You are looking better, brighter than when I saw you in New Vrindaban last. You have got so much talents for serving Kṛṣṇa. Everyone has got. That I am speaking. We have to utilize it. From the very beginning I met you, I instructed to edit. That was the starting of our Back to Godhead. He is good typist also. You know that? (laughter) I think he is the best of all of our men. He can type very swiftly and correctly. I think in our group Hayagrīva prabhu and Satsvarūpa Mahārāja are very good typist. And Jayādvaita, I think you are also, no? Jayādvaita: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You are good typist? (laughter) So why you have not published Bali*-mardana's article? *Jayādvaita: Bali*-mardana's article. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayādvaita: We were waiting. We weren't sure if it was appropriate to publish it. Prabhupāda: He thought disappointed. He has published. He has written very nicely. Jayādvaita: He has written nicely? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayādvaita: We can publish it? Prabhupāda: So we should . . . yes, here is the . . . what is that? Brahmānanda: "Illusion and Reality," two essays . . . Prabhupāda: He has presented very nicely. So we should encourage our men. Jayādvaita: Publish it. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And our men, all our men should write. Otherwise how we shall know that he has understood the philosophy? Writing means śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. Śravaṇam means hearing from the authority, and again repeat it. This is our business, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23), about Viṣṇu, not for any politician or any other man. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ , about Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu. So that is success. Hear and repeat, hear and repeat. You haven't got to manufacture. Any one of us, simply if you reproduce the purport which I have given in Bhāgavata , you become a good speaker. What I am doing? I am doing the same thing, writing the same thing, so that modern man can understand. Otherwise we are repeating the same thing. They are repeating also same thing, sense gratification. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). But because that is material, they are not getting happiness. But the spiritual thing, we are chanting the same Hare Kṛṣṇa, simply repeating, but we are getting transcendental bliss. What we are doing? Same "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." So process is the same, the subject matter is different. So why you are behind publication? Now all the big men are here. Why our books are behind? Why? Here the editors are there. I don't think there is any scarcity. Rāmeśvara: Now there is no scarcity. Prabhupāda: Huh? Formerly he was . . . (break) Rāmeśvara: If we want to have the books printed very quickly, they have to be printed in America, the new books. Prabhupāda: And the reprint there. Rāmeśvara: Yes, we can do that. Prabhupāda: So why not give them some book also for ordinary? Rāmeśvara: We are giving them a lot of business this year in Japan. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We must deal with them very nicely. They have helped in the beginning. Yes. I gave them only $5,000 start, and I gave the order for 52,000, but they supplied. They got money. They were confident that we shall not cheat them. So our relation is very nice. So utilize it. (break) . . . girl was, that the Japanese, they like our publication. *Rāmeśvara: Girl. Mūla*-prakṛti . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rāmeśvara: That girl that was seeing you in Hawaii, Mūla*-prakṛti . *Prabhupāda: Yes. She was very enthusiastic. Mūla*-prakṛti . Where is Yadubara prabhu? Where is? Jayatīrtha: He's right here. Prabhupāda: Oh. You are feeling now nice? Yadubara: Yes. I'm much improved. Prabhupāda: That's nice. So everyone feeling nice? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: You are also feeling nice? Viśākhā: Now I am all right. Prabhupāda: Eh? Viśākhā: Now I am all right. Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's nice. Rāmeśvara: The devotees at the Press will not feel nice until all your books are published. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That's nice. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: They are working now night shifts also. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Rāmeśvara: Twenty*-four hours. *Jayatīrtha: Twenty*-four hours on the composers, so that we can take full advantage of the machines. Prabhupāda: And Hayagrīva prabhu, how many papers you are finishing? You can finish fifty papers at least. Hayagrīva: I am trying. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hayagrīva: I am trying. One hour a tape. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Hayagrīva finished volume six of Madhya-līlā today. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Hayagrīva finished editing volume six of Madhya-līlā today. *Prabhupāda: Oh, volume six, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Out of nine volumes, Hayagrīva has finished six of Madhya-līlā . Prabhupāda: Altogether there will be nine volumes? *Rāmeśvara: Of Madhya*-līlā . *Jayatīrtha: Madhya*-līlā , all nine volumes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: And four volumes Antya-līlā . Jayatīrtha: Altogether sixteen volumes. Prabhupāda: Where is our Gargamuni? Bhavānanda: He is in the east. Buffalo. Prabhupāda: Preaching? Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are with him, Sudāmā? Sudāmā: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Everything is going on nice? Sudāmā: Yes. (break) *Jayatīrtha: . . . told me that the whole Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , editing, will be finished by the end of August. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Jayatīrtha: All of the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta editing will be finished by the end of August. Prabhupāda: They are coming also, Nitāi . . .? Jayatīrtha: Nitāi and Jagannātha are going to be coming . . . Rāmeśvara: In about three days. Jayatīrtha: By the end of July they'll be . . . so it is going very fast now. Prabhupāda: Very good. Tūrṇaṁ yateta . We should try very fast before the next death comes. And death will come. So we shall prepare in such a way that before the next death comes over, we finish our Kṛṣṇa consciousness business and go back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is perfection. Because if we wait for another birth, maybe we may not get. Even Bhārata Mahārāja, he also slipped. He became a deer. So we should always be vigilant that, "We have got this opportunity, human form of life. Let us utilize it to the fullest extent and be fit for going back to home, back to Godhead." That is intelligence. Not that, "All right, I shall get again chance next birth." That is not very good policy. Tūrṇam. Tūrṇam means very hastily finish. Tūrṇaṁ yateta anumṛtyuṁ pated yāvat (SB 11.9.29). (sound of men practicing karate) These people are wasting time, as if they will live forever. (chuckles) What is the use of this kar . . .? Kara? Jayatīrtha: Karate. Prabhupāda: Karate. It is very popular in Mexico. Jayatīrtha: Everywhere. *Prabhupāda: But will that method save from death? When the death will come, will the sound "Go!" (laughter) will save them? This is foolishness. Instead of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, they are resounding some sound, thinking that the sound will save him. This is called foolishness, mūḍha . (karate men begin shouting) (laughter) Piśācī pāile jane mati*-cchanna haya (Prema-vivarta). And if you ask them that, "Why you are sounding so loudly? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they will laugh. (chuckles) Viṣṇujana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what did Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura mean when he said: "I am going, my work unfinished"? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Viṣṇujana: When Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura stated that he was leaving this planet with his work unfinished? *Prabhupāda: Then let us finish. We are descendant of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So he kept unfinished so that we shall get the chance to finish it. That is his mercy. He could have finished immediately. He is Vaiṣṇava, he is all*-powerful. But he gave us chance that, "You foolish people, you all also work." That is his mercy. (Video end): *So we should pray to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura that, "We are your grandchildren, great*-grandchildren, so we have got some right to beg some mercy from you. The grandchildren get some indulgence from the grandfather. So I pray like that." It is Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's mercy. A Vaiṣṇava can . . . Kṛṣṇa doesn't require anyone's help. *Still, He is asking, "Surrender to Me." He doesn't require anyone's surrender. But it is for him good, one who surrenders. Not Kṛṣṇa is in need of anyone's service. He is complete. But He comes as if He is in helpless condition and asking for us to surrender. So that is for his good. One who is surrendered, he'll get the result. Kṛṣṇa is self*-sufficient. Similarly, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is self-sufficient. But if he said that "I keeping unfinished," that means he gave us the chance, the opportunity. So we should always pray to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura to be merciful upon us so that we can execute his unfinished task. That should be our . . . and never we should think that "What Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura could not finish, I have finished." (laughs) Don't think like that. It is not like that. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, eka ki āmāra nāhi pāya . You have not given index. That I have instructed. You should now prepare index. Jayādvaita: That is being done for all the volumes. Prabhupāda: All the volumes must have index. *Rādhā*-vallabha: All the Caitanya-caritāmṛta volumes have indexes. Jayādvaita: Bengali index. Prabhupāda: This is the last one. Rāmeśvara: Bengali and Sanskrit verses, and then general index. Prabhupāda: Is there any ekaki āmāra nāhi pāya mora? Eka ki ? *Viṣṇujana: Eke ke milila prabhu saba bhakta*-gaṇa (CC Adi 17.79). Prabhupāda: No, no, not that. (break) . . . observing ekādaśī today? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: So . . . Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- October 0, 1975, Mauritius *Prabhupāda: He is greater than the greatest and smaller than the smallest. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūteṣu . . . arjuna tiṣṭhati ( BG 18.65). You'll find at night a small insect, He has got all the . . . anatomical . . . framework . . . small . . . (indistinct) . . . aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara . . . ( Brahma-saṁhitā 5.35) Kṛṣṇa is within the atom, that is Kṛṣṇa. (break) Knowledge, philosophy, logic you want to study Kṛṣṇa? So many books. You cannot finish even in your life. We have got already published 60 books. (break) Brahman and Parabrahman, Kṛṣṇa is Parabrahman . . . (indistinct) . . . Brahman. We are all brahman . But Kṛṣṇa is Parabrahman. (break) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport " . . . but my opinion is that where Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna are present, there will be all good fortune." Prabhupāda: He directly confirmed that Dhṛtarāṣṭra could not expect victory for his side. Victory was certain for the side of Arjuna because Kṛṣṇa was there. Kṛṣṇa's acceptance of the post of charioteer for Arjuna was an exhibition of another opulence. Kṛṣṇa is full of all opulences, and renunciation is one of them. There are many instances of such renunciation, for Kṛṣṇa is also the master of renunciation. The fight was actually between Duryodhana and Yudhiṣṭhira. Arjuna was fighting on behalf of his elder brother, Yudhiṣṭhira. Because Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna were on the side of Yudhiṣṭhira, Yudhiṣṭhira's victory was certain. The battle was to decide who would rule the world, and Sañjaya predicted that the power would be transferred to Yudhiṣṭhira. It is also predicted here that Yudhiṣṭhira, after gaining victory in this battle, would flourish more and more because not only was he righteous and pious but he was also a strict moralist. He never spoke a lie during his life. *There are many less intelligent persons who take Bhagavad*-gītā to be a discussion of topics between two friends on a battlefield. But such a book cannot be scripture. Some may protest that Kṛṣṇa incited Arjuna to fight, which is immoral, but the reality of the situation is clearly stated: Bhagavad-gītā is the supreme instruction in morality. The supreme instruction of morality is stated in the Ninth Chapter 34th verse: man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ . One must become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and the essence of all religion is to surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, as stated, sarva-dharmān . The instructions of Bhagavad-gītā constitute the supreme process of religion and of morality. All other processes may be purifying and may lead to this process, but the last instruction of the Gītā is the last word in all morality and religion: surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. This is the verdict of the Eighteenth Chapter. *From the Bhagavad*-gītā we can understand that to realize oneself by philosophical speculation and by meditation is one process, but to fully surrender unto Kṛṣṇa is the highest perfection. This is the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā . The path of regulative principles according to the orders of social life and according to the different courses of religion may be a confidential path of knowledge in as far as the rituals of religion are confidential, but one is still involved with meditation and cultivation of knowledge. Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa in devotional service in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the most confidential instruction and is the essence of the Eighteenth Chapter (BG 18.78, purport). (end) Arrival Reception -- October 1, 1975, Mauritius Indian Official: . . . we are very pleased to have you in among us. And we welcome you on behalf of the people of Mauritius to this island and hope you will enjoy your short stay here. And Swāmījī, how long are you going to stay here? Prabhupāda: The program is one week. Indian Official: One week. Have you got any special program? You are going for lectures or . . . Prabhupāda: I do not know what they have arranged, but my secretary says that it will be one week. Indian Official: Have you had any idea of Mauritius before you came here? You knew anything about . . . *Prabhupāda: (laughing) My idea is to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because for want of this knowledge, our mission of human life is failing all over the world. Therefore, I am trying to introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world, without any distinction of caste, creed, color. God is for everyone, and we have forgotten our relationship with God. Therefore, you are suffering in so many ways. And His instruction is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If we follow, then we become happy; our life becomes successful. This is our mission. Indian Official: Well, briefly you have explained the purpose of your visit. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian Official: And, of course, as you know, we have . . . by now we know that it is a worldwide movement, and we are pleased that it has reached Mauritius at long last. And we hope that there will be scope for this movement, and with your blessing. Prabhupāda: If you kindly give me the opportunity, then I can explain to you how much important this movement is and how everyone should take to it. Although it is very easy, but people are not trained up. So let us try combinedly. People may take it and be happy. Indian Official: So thank you very much, Swāmījī, and hope that your stay will be very fruitful after a long and arduous work which you have been doing throughout the world. We hope that you will be . . . Prabhupāda: I want to see the leading men of this place . . . Indian Official: Yes. Certainly. Prabhupāda: . . . because if they understand the importance of this movement, then my mission will be successful. Indian Official: But you will have the opportunity of seeing. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ tat tad evetaro janaḥ ( BG 3.21). In Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: the leaders, whatever they do, the ordinary, common man follows. Indian Official: Follows the fellowship. That's fine, yes. Prabhupāda: So the leading men of Mauritius, if they understand the importance of this movement, then I am sure it will be very much beneficial for everyone. Indian Official: For everyone. Yes. So thank you very much, Swāmījī, on behalf of the people of Mauritius and all our friends, and the NBC TV who have been very kind enough. Here you have the chairman here. And we are very grateful to you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (aside to devotees) We can go now? Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- January 3, 1976, Nellore Prabhupāda: These things are not available in the Western countries. They do not know all these. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that there has ever been a personality who has ever given such a great gift to the Western world as yourself, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, actually that is the fact. But let them appreciate, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gradually I think they all will. Some are now . . . Prabhupāda: No, they are intelligent. First . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The thing is, it seems to me that we are flooding so many books that they must become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Yes, they have no alternative than to read these books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Practically now it is commonplace that every day when our men go out, supposing each man meets in a day a thousand people or five hundred people, always, without a doubt, at least one or two of the people he's met, they already have another book, and they are taking a second or third book. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many of them have two or three volumes of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta or Bhāgavatam . And although they may not read it, their children are reading it. Prabhupāda: Somebody is reading. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. I made a study. I asked the men in our party, when they were all gathered, to raise their hand if they had received a book before joining our party, and every single one of them had gotten a book before joining the movement—without exception. They were attracted through reading a book or a magazine. Prabhupāda: I talked with that police officer. He has published. In Chicago. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Crime: What to do?" Harikeśa: "Why and what to do?" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Why and what to do?" Prabhupāda: Every paper. There are so many papers. Education so much advanced, and everyone is a criminal. Hmm. Have saṅkīrtana , then lecture. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You chant? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa only. (break) That is foolishness. Why our men does not become ready before four o'clock and have maṅgala ārati and kīrtana ? If our habits are not changed, then what is the use of spending so much money? (pause) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In no way can anyone say that they're independent. There is no possibility. At every moment one is dependent. And if anyone says they aren't, they are simply foolish rascals. We have to challenge everyone in the world on this point, "You cannot be independent." He was pointing out, saying that even in politics, the politicians like Indira think that they are independent, and Prabhupāda was saying that Mujibur Rahman, he fought so hard for his country's independence, Bangladesh. But in one hour, when the soldiers came, they killed him and every single family member, not sparing anyone. But he thought he was independent. He thought his country had become independent. But in one hour it was all wiped away. Prabhupāda: So where is your independence? What is the answer? At any moment you have to die. Even Mujibur Rahman or Mussolini or big, big, so . . . Napoleon. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Franco. There was that Franco. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. He was given horse urine to drink, Napoleon. Such a great hero, but he had to drink horse urine. This Englishman after Battle of . . . what is that? Waterloo. When he was arrested, when he was asking water, he was given horse urine. Because everyone was very, very angry. Napoleon became just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. They were threatening their children: "Oh, he, Bona, is coming. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep." He became so much . . . he was known as Bona. You do not know all these things? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whole Europe became threatened, Napoleon. And there must be some reaction. And when he was under custody he was treated like an . . . so where is independence? He had to drink horse urine as reaction of his atrocities. Hitler committed suicide and finished himself. Mussolini was forced to be killed. Gandhi was killed. And they are fighting for independence. You know this Sydney? Sydney? You know why the city is known as Sydney? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Sir Philip Sydney, a great commander, during the fighting time, when he was shot he asked for water, and the water was not supplied and he died. Now, he was very generous man. He was the commander. Water was brought, and at the same time another soldier was being carried. He was also going to die. He was looking for the water. So immediately he said: "This water give him. Give him," and he died. He was very generous. He knew that, "I am going to die. If he can be saved, give him this water." So that Sydney, Sir Philip Sydney, his name. Melbourne, it is also named after a great soldier. So where is your independence? If you are thinking independently and doing things independently, then is it not foolishness? Hmm? (chuckles) Why don't you answer? You don't want to be foolish? (laughter) Suppose within the prison walls, if you want to do things independently, is it possible? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you're always dependent. Prabhupāda: You'll be put into further sufferings as soon as you violate the rules and regulation of the jail. You'll be put to a further term of suffering. Just like they are independently trying to avoid pregnancy, and the same man who has killed his own child, or same mother, he is being killed within the womb. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni ( BG 3.27). Nature will not tolerate this. In India still these things are not happening because they are not so advanced to use all these contraceptive method. But in Europe, America, it has become a common affair to kill the child within the womb. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is starting here also. *Prabhupāda: Yes, gradually. As soon as you kill, then you must be killed. This law is there: life for life. So where is your independence? Independence means you are inviting more sufferings, that's all. You go on, declare your independence. We are the only sane man. We have accepted that, "We have not independence." Here Kṛṣṇa is asking. "Let me surrender unto . . ." That's all. So we have to convince the people, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. You are foolishly rascal. You are trying to be independent. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. You do that." That will make him happy. In many varieties of ways we have to convince them and prove that "You are foolishly thinking that there is independence, so*-called scientific advancement, and only promising, 'Yes, in future we shall be like this, be like this.' " What is future? Just take account of your present position. Where is the history that you have . . .? If in the past something like that happened, then you can expect future. But in the past, the whole world history, there was no independence. (break) . . . clearly says, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27): "These rascals, out of false ego, and vidmūḍha , foolishly declaring that, 'I am the doer of everything. I can do everything independently.' " Kartāham iti manyate. Manyate means "falsely think." Actually, he is nothing but a small particle. This egotism is the root cause of suffering. Discuss all these things amongst yourselves and preach, and inform these rascals, so-called civilized scientists and philosopher. That is preaching. We have to present the truth in such a way that they will be convinced, "Yes." Within fifteen minutes the plane in Arabia, fifty-three men fell. Within fifteen . . . it takes fifteen minutes to die. That's all. Where is your independence? You have invented so many nice machine, but when there is order from superior, "You nonsense, your machine . . . you die immediately," what you can do? So why don't you accept there is superior? Hmm? Why do they not accept? What is the reason? You cannot say? Harikeśa: Vimūḍhātmā . Prabhupāda: Yes. That accept. If he accepts that he's vimūḍha , then it is an advance. Just like a dog is barking, " Yow, yow, yow, yow! " You just run towards him with a stick, he'll immediately go away and stop. Because he is dog, he is thinking, "I am independent. I can bark like this." And as soon as . . . simply one stick—finish his independence. You'll find psychologically, however a big dog he may be, if you just run towards him with a stick, he'll go. (laughs) He knows that, "When this man will strike me with the stick, I cannot do anything." He knows it very well. Sometimes falsely if you touch the ground, he will go away. Everyone is thinking independently. He is forming a party, "revolution," "ism," and so many things. All of them are foolish rascals. They do not see the history. Stronger men than ourselves—Napoleon, Hitler, this man, that man, Gandhi—everyone is finished. So where is . . . what is the value of my planning again? (break) There are many gods? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Vivekananda. He is follower of Vivekananda. (break) . . . Vivekananda's house was made, say, eighty years before. So what is the use of this house? It is standing and it is covered with matches . . . what is called? Straw? What is called? Harikeśa: Lines? Prabhupāda: No, no. Dorma . We say dorma . The bamboo cut into slice and open . . . Harikeśa: Citar. Citar . Prabhupāda: Citar ? Harikeśa: Like the roof in the other place in Madras. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is English? Citar it is called? Harikeśa: No, Hindi. Prabhupāda: English, what is the English? They do not use it. Hariśauri: A straw roof, they call that thatching. Thatch. Prabhupāda: Thatching, yes. That is right. So the windows are thatched. So where is the protection? Vivekananda is standing as preacher. So where is the preachers? People should have gone there in hundreds; *there should have been some program. So where is the program? Simply "Vivekananda house." Lit up the house. (break) . . . rows of statues on the beach, many statues—for passing stool by the crows. I have seen in Calcutta one statue of Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee. So in the morning, on the day of the birth anniversary, in the morning the municipal sweepers with their brush, they will rub it to cleanse the solidly stuck*-up crow's stool with water. It will be done for three, four hours. Then in the evening, big, big men will come, gather, and offer him garland one after another, just like they were offering me. In this way the meeting will be held. In the morning it is brushed with the sweeper's street brush, and in the evening it is offered garland. I have seen it. Here also I see that she has kept Kṛṣṇa's mūrti outside. It is aparādha . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not kṛṣṇa*-bhaktas , these people, at all. Hariśauri: Even that tulasī tree around the corner, they have clipped to shape it, cut all the branches. Prabhupāda: They have no guidance. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last night when we were reading, they all left, especially on that point of following the regulative principles—no meat, crabs, fish, eggs. They all got up and walked out. Prabhupāda: You said that the same cooking place will have to do, where they are cooking meat? Harikeśa: They're not cooking it now. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: They're not doing that now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (break) . . . is not planning. When he comes here he is determined that he will not eat in anyone's home. Prabhupāda: That is very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not only that, but he's not going to sleep in anyone's home either. They want to camp out by the riversides. Prabhupāda: Very good idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that he finds it very . . . from reading your books it is very clear that Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very careful and strict to only eat prasādam cooked by proper persons. Prabhupāda: No, purchased from Jagannātha temple. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, like that. Prabhupāda: People would come to offer Him prasādam , so what is the cost of the prasādam , that was taken, and He purchased. Formerly, the system was, there was no hotel, but there were temples. You go, and you can purchase very cheap price. I went with my father in my childhood in a place. My father would never take food at anyone's house or in the hotel. He will find out some temple and pay them and take prasādam . Still there are many temples. So I was about ten years old at that time, say, seventy years ago. So he paid two annas to the pūjārī and he gave us so much, it can be eaten by five, six men. Khicuṛi , vegetables, varieties. So much. Two annas . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a nice temple in Nabadwip that does that, the Govinda temple in Nabadwip. When I was going to purchase the land in Māyāpur, the Mr. Das, the lawyer and I, we would take our meals at this temple. Every day he would purchase. He would give a little. Prabhupāda: Yes, still there are. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had arrangement like this. At least a hundred people were taking, respectable people. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it's a very pop . . . it's a very big temple, that temple. Of course, I don't know how bona fide the persons who speak at night are, but every night there are speakers, and many people coming. It's a very good temple. I was very impressed by it. Nice rooms for people to stay . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . upstairs, very active, always being cleansed by people. Prabhupāda: That is temple. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And first*-class prasādam . Prabhupāda: So we have got so many examples. Introduce this. (end) Conversation -- January 7, 1976, Nellore Prabhupāda: . . . no taste, no vitamin, and still they eat. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can everything. They have canned food, canned fruits, canned . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I have seen. Eating and remnants, it is kept in . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, put in the refrigerator. And then you cook it up again with fresh foods, mixing together. Harikeśa: Is it all right if he keeps it in there and then he puts some on the plate when taking? He puts on the plate when taking? Prabhupāda: I do not know whether it is all right, but it is not all right that you eat and keep it. This is not all right. Harikeśa: He takes it from there and puts it on the plate before you eat? Yaśodānandana: He keeps the salt in a separate bowl. When you require it he will give you only as much as you require. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. Hari-śauri: That's why the bowl is there. That's what I intended to do, but I have to keep it away from the table. *Prabhupāda: The principle should be that you should not leave remnants of food. As soon as it is used, it should not be used more. (break) Otherwise it is not possible to give up. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). I am eating something not very superior, but if I get the chance of eating something superior, then I give up this inferior. So there is no question of making it vacant or void. To fill up the place with better things. So when you think of Kṛṣṇa, then you forget māyā . Otherwise you are entrapped with māyā . Why Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto ? Mām eva ye prapadyante (BG 7.14). This is wanted. As soon as you become anyābhilāṣī , then it becomes difficult. Where is that knife? Give me one am root. Cut into pieces and get . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think these are from the local . . . growing here. *Prabhupāda: That we should be very careful, that we should think of Kṛṣṇa only, not of māyā , in everything. No more strength. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām (BG 9.14). Avismṛti*-kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ kṣinoty abhadrāṇi. We are in the abhadra, māyā . But avismṛti-kṛṣṇa-padaravindayoḥ kṣiṇoti . The thinking of māyā will gradually finish. Avismṛiti-kṛṣṇa-padaravindayoḥ kṣiṇoti . . . no, no, I said that you give these pieces, little, little. I'll do it myself. These pieces, this am root, yes. Hari-śauri: This. I'll give it out. Prabhupāda: So no vismṛti. Avismṛti. Vismṛti is ignorance. Avismṛti . All right. (end) Conversation -- January 8, 1976, Nellore *Prabhupāda: This is idea. Mano*-rathena , by mental speculation, āsato dhāvato , they will come to materialism. As soon as they will hover over mental concoction, they will remain in the material platform, because mind is subtle form of matter. Acyutānanda: Also, in their evidences by which they base their dialectic discussions, have they regarded the Vedic scriptures? They have avoided them very conveniently. *Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of dialectic discussion. Suppose I am discussing, you are discussing something, but if I am imperfect, you are imperfect, what is the value of such discussion? That is the point. The party discussing something, whether he is perfect? If he is not perfect, then go on discussing. We first of all say that any conditioned soul is defective, and that is admitted. They say: "We are not perfect." "I think," they say: "In my opinion," they say. Never they say, the so*-called scientists, "definite." And they cannot say it. Mahāṁsa: That is like Dr. Frog's philosophy when they speculate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply speculation. So that kind of discussion, what is the value? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's always a hypothesis. Prabhupāda: If some children discuss some serious subject matter, what is the value? And they are all children in the cradle of nature, that's all. Prakṛteḥ kriya . . . therefore it is word, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni ( BG 3.27). Just like children: "Ha! Sit down here"—he has to sit down. Then where is his, I mean, freedom to discuss? Prakṛti says that "You sit down here. Don't go there." He has to accept. Then what is the value of discussion? Acyutānanda: Mainly, these Karl Marx, they were angry at the Christian church for exploiting the poor masses, and that's the reason . . . Prabhupāda: This is our . . . Acyutānanda: . . . so he has attacked. He has taken vengeance on this. *Prabhupāda: That they are doing. Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water. They have no philosophy, and they violate everything what is stated there in Bible. Now you say that, "Thou shall not kill", they say: "Thou shall not murder." They are molding. Now this homosex they are sanctioning, man*-to-man marriage. They are sanctioning abortion. Acyutānanda: Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals. Prabhupāda: Just see. Is that religion? Yaśodānandana: The simple fact that the Christians have to sprinkle water to convert means that they do not have any potency to by philosophy, to preach to them with strong philosophy. Prabhupāda: There is no . . . so, go on reading. Harikeśa: I'll backspace two sentences. (break) Acyutānanda: ". . . have allowed us to wither away these different countries, and the religionists, they are keeping all the food. They are not distributing it." Yaśodānandana: If we say that the Russia has no grains, they will say that they are big wheat producers in the southern part. They may counteract by saying: "We also produce a lot of wheat." Acyutānanda: They had to purchase wheat from America. Gurukeśa: Russia is importing its food grains now. Prabhupāda: So why they cannot produce sufficient, such a big country? Gurukeśa: And Eastern Europe, which is also communist, gets all its supplies from . . . Prabhupāda: No, what is their explanation? Russia is the biggest country. Gurukeśa: Land. Hari-śauri: The reason was that there was no rain. *Prabhupāda: Then? Then you have to depend on rain, and when we say parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ . . . hmm? And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). That means, rascal, you take one side, that ardha-kukuṭi-nyāya. Cut the chicken half, and separate the mouth—it is expensive—and keep the rear side, you get eggs. (laughter) So this is ardha-kukuṭi-nyāya . The rascal does not know that if you separate the mouth there will be no egg. Gurukeśa: They say that's depending upon nature. But they do not know who . . . *Acyutānanda: The word 'nature' should be condemned. That . . . no scientific*-minded person can say the word nature. *Prabhupāda: No, they do not know what is nature. Nature is an instrument, and there must be an operator. So that they do not know, the operator. Just like a child is thinking the motorcar is going automatically. He does not know there is a driver. The child sees that the airplane is flying. They think it is automatically going. And there is a pilot, he does not know. Similarly, these rascals, they are studying nature, but nature is an instrument only. It is being operated by Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). They have practical experience that without operator a machine cannot work. In the huge machine, how it is working unless there is operator? That they do not know. Gurukeśa: That's what they're never trying to find. Prabhupāda: Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). Find out this verse. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍha . Therefore they are all mūḍhas . So we are not going to be misled by the mūḍhas . That is not possible. We take the instruction of the topmost intelligent person, Kṛṣṇa. I think our Svarūpa Dāmodara has said that. Where is that book? He has given: "Kṛṣṇa, the topmost scientist." Yes. "Perceiving the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa." He has given this article. Acyutānanda: How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not defective like other living beings? Prabhupāda: Huh? Acyutānanda: How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not . . . Prabhupāda: He is not defective because he is speaking what he has heard from Nārada. Therefore he is not defective. Just like we are speaking—we are not perfect; *we are also ordinary human being—but people are taking that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has done wonder." What is that wonder? I am speaking Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, that's all. Acyutānanda: Like the Mormon religion in America . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, don't bring any other . . . that is . . . Acyutānanda: He claimed that an angel . . . Prabhupāda: If you accept . . . we are taking from God. Kṛṣṇa instructed Brahmā, Brahmā instructed Nārada, Nārada instructed Vyāsadeva, and therefore we are taking. Acyutānanda: So it is a novel. Like Shakespeare wrote Hamlet . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. It may be novel for you because we take you as a mūḍha . We don't give any credit. We say . . . find out this, mūdho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have this, mūḍho 'yam nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25)? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent." Prabhupāda: Yes, the fools. He does not know Kṛṣṇa; therefore he is fool. Read it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yogamāyā , and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible." Mahamsa: So who is fool is defined as avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritaḥ (BG 9.11). Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mahamsa: Who is a fool, that is defined in the other verse, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mānuṣīṁ tanum āśri . . . that one who considers Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being— mūḍha . So read the purport. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "It may be argued that since Kṛṣṇa was present on this earth and was visible by everyone, then why isn't He manifest to everyone now? But actually, He was not manifest to everyone. When Kṛṣṇa was present there were only a few people who could understand Him to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the assembly of Kurus, when Śiśupāla spoke against Kṛṣṇa being elected president of the assembly, Bhīṣma supported Him and proclaimed Him to be the Supreme God. Similarly, the Pāṇḍavas and a few others . . ." Prabhupāda: Śiśupāla could not see, although Kṛṣṇa was present there, but Bhīṣma could see. So you require special eyes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānām (BG 10.10). *Prabhupāda: Yes. Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ . . . (BS 5.38). So unless you are qualified, how you can see Kṛṣṇa? This is the point. Kṛṣṇa is there, and the rascal Śiśupāla could not see Him, but Bhīṣma could see Him. So they say, "Can you show me God?" Even God comes before you, unless you have got the qualified eyes you cannot see Him. Therefore qualification required. Premāñjana-cchurita. When your eyes will be anointed with . . . what is called? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve of love. Acyutānanda: Ointment. Prabhupāda: Savoth? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve, salve. Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve, s*-a-l-v-e. Prabhupāda: Oh, salve of love, yes. So that is required. Your . . . therefore tat- paratvena nirmalam. You have to make your senses purified; *then bhakti will begin. Otherwise it is karma . If your senses are not purified, then it is karma . There is a difference between karma and . . . Premāñjana*-cchurita . . . what is that? Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). If you think yourself that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am this," "I am that," then you are not upādhi-mukta; *therefore you cannot see Kṛṣṇa. You can see Kṛṣṇa when you are no more within these upādhis , pure soul. Brahma . . . that is real brahma*-bhūtaḥ , to understand the position of the soul and engage the soul in the service of the Lord. Then it is perfect. Go on. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Similarly, the Pāṇḍavas and a few others knew that He was the Supreme, but not everyone. He was not revealed to the nondevotees and the common men. Therefore in the Gītā Kṛṣṇa says that but for His pure devotees, all men consider Him to be like themselves. He was manifest only to His devotees as the reservoir of all pleasure. But to others, to unintelligent nondevotees, He was covered by His eternal potency. In the prayers of Kunti in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam (SB 1.8.18), it is said that the Lord is covered by the curtain of yogamāyā , and thus ordinary people cannot understand Him. Kuntī prays: 'O my Lord, You are the maintainer of the entire universe, and devotional service to You is the highest religious principle. Therefore I pray that You will also maintain me. Your transcendental form is covered by the yoga-māyā . The brahma-jyotir is the covering of the internal potency. May You kindly remove this glowing effulgence that impedes my seeing Your sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (BS 5.1), Your eternal form of bliss and knowledge.' This yogamāyā curtain is also mentioned in the Fifteenth Chapter of the Gītā . The Supreme Personality of Godhead in His transcendental form of bliss and knowledge is covered by the eternal potency of brahma-jyotir, and the less intelligent impersonalists cannot see the Supreme on this account. Also in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (SB 10.14.7) there is this prayer by Brahmā: 'O Supreme Personality of Godhead, O Supersoul, O master of all mystery, who can calculate Your potency and pastimes in this world? You are always expanding Your eternal potency, and therefore no one can understand You. Learned scientists and learned scholars can examine the atomic constitution of the material world or even the planets, but still they are unable to calculate Your energy and potency, although You are present before them.' The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa, is not only unborn, but He is avyaya , inexhaustible. His eternal form is bliss and knowledge, and His energies are all inexhaustible." Prabhupāda: So, go and discuss. (end) Conversation -- January 15, 1976, Mayapur *Prabhupāda: So, of course, those days also not costly, 1945. I was paying only 200 rupees. Now you cannot get one room. So because it was famous, that ghost*-hauntly house, nobody was taking it. So I took it. (laughs) I don’t care for ghost. Actually there was ghost. And all the servants, they said: "Bābājī, therefore retire." They met. But I was chanting. (break) (man heard in another room ringing bell and chanting mantras ) He is going to chant? Bhavānanda: I think he washed his hands. This is his father here. (break) (end) Conversation -- January 16, 1976, Mayapur Prabhupāda: If he does not read *Bhāgavatam* , then he remains a rascal. Hari-śauri: Anything apart from the Vedas is not really knowledge. *Prabhupāda: No. May be some fragmental knowledge, but if one wants full knowledge in life, then he must read Bhāgavatam . Bhagavad*-gītā is the preliminary ABCD, and then let him read Bhāgavatam . (break) . . . venture, newspaper. (break) They have been taught like that. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ ( SB 7.5.31). They are passing as great leader for giving men wrong direction and spoil the life. He cannot save himself, and he can spoil himself very nicely. Hari-śauri: People's minds are so flickering. There's so much disturbance. *Prabhupāda: The mind is the first creation for material enjoyment. From the mind, senses are created: five senses for knowledge*-gathering and five senses for working, and five airs within the body. In this way the mind and fifteen. This is called ṣoḍāśa upacāra , sixteen. And then the ingredients, pañca-mahā-bhūta . Then intelligence, ahaṅkāra , false ego. These twenty-four, combination. And ātmā, jīva , and then Kṛṣṇa—twenty-six. The twenty-six combination is this body, mind, self, soul, Supersoul, everything. (pause) Prabhupāda: So, I am ready. Hari-śauri: I think it's just a little early yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Just a little early. It's still dark. I think ten minutes should be all right. Has this been used? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: All right. I'll take it and wash it. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . is in ignorance. Combination of matter and soul, moving animals. Some of them are standing as trees and plant, and some of them are moving. Where is the science to study? What is your value of knowledge? Hmm? If they do not know the fundamental things, then what is the value of their knowledge? Simply observation, superficial, externally. There is good scope. They are receiving these books. We should take chance of preaching this Bhāgavatam , and the classes should be held especially . . . no, the religious classes are already there. Let them study Bhāgavatam , Bhagavad*-gītā . And they will accept it. They are not fools. Simply we have to introduce it. The Western people, they are not fools, but misguided. So you take the charge of guiding them; then Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will be successful. They will appreciate, they will take it up and reform, and their life will be successful. And if they utilize their intelligence how to reduce population and kill child within the womb and "There is no soul in the womb. When they come out then the soul becomes . . ." What is this nonsense? Unless there is soul, how it becomes manifest? Hari-śauri: It's obvious. If the body is growing within the womb, there must be life there. Prabhupāda: The same process is going on from the very beginning. A body is formed, and it develops. The child is born . . . the same process is going on. How do you say there is no soul? If there is no soul, how it has developed within the womb? Such rascals, they are passing on as big scientists. What is the reason they don't believe that there is no soul? Harikeśa: They have really no argument. Prabhupāda: Just see. All dogmatic. All dogmatic foolishness they are propagating, and it is going on in the name of vijñāna , science. Hari-śauri: If they admitted the existence . . . *Prabhupāda: Vijñāna should be enunciated, vigata*-jñāna. Vigata . . . you understand vigata ? Vigata means lost. So vijñāna , you can make two meanings. Viśiṣṭa-jñāna. Viśiṣṭa, vi means . . . viśiṣṭa means full, explained knowledge. You can make this meaning. And another meaning you can do. Vi means vigata , "lost." So vigata-jñāna . Their vijñāna means vigata-jñāna, lost of all knowledge. So that is the word given in Bhagavad-gītā , māyayāprahṛta-jñānaḥ . This is vijñāna . You can explain in this way also. Māyayāpa . . . māyā has taken away their knowledge, and that is going on as vijñāna , science. Māyā has made them rascal, and they are presenting themselves as the man of advanced knowledge. A rascal is representing himself as advanced in knowledge. That is the defect of Kali-yuga. Hari-śauri: Advanced demoniac knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Advanced demon. Actually they are advanced demons, asura, asurī*-bhāvam āśritaḥ , being infected with the contamination of atheism, godlessness. ( japa ) Hari-śauri: They're actually very expert at avoiding the real issues. Prabhupāda: That is . . . a child can also do that. That is not expert. A child can advance in foolishness without any guidance. If the child touches fire, and if somebody says: "This is advancement of knowledge," then imagine what is the position. Similarly, all these rascals, they are endeavoring. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. He endeavored all through how to become immortal, which is impossible. But he advanced in that foolishness. Hiraṇyakaśipu was such a big demon, his only idea was that, "The devatās , they attack us sometimes. But now I shall attack them and plunder them. But because I am now practically immortal, what they will do? They cannot kill me. So I will go on with my demonic activities, and they cannot do anything." This is his foolishness. He did not know that he's the greatest foolishness that he was trying to become immortal. When it was said by Brahmā that, "No, no, it is not possible," still, he expected that, "I shall become immortal." Brahmā flatly said: "No, no, this is not possible. I am not immortal. How can I give you immortality?" But he would not hear even Brahmā. He thought that, "In an indirect way I shall befool this man, Brahmā." "All right, sir, then give me this benediction." "What is that?" "I'll not die in the land." "All right." "Not in the water." "Yes." "Not in the air." "No, yes." So he thought that "These three things finished. Then where shall I die? There are three things only—land, water, sky. So he has given me benediction I shall not die anywhere of these three. So I have cheated now." And then, "I shall not die in daytime." "Yes." "I shall not die in nighttime." But māyā dictated that there is another space or another place between day and night. (laughs) That he forgot. That is called sandhyā . That is accepted. Hari-śauri: Twilight. Prabhupāda: But he forgot that. And Kṛṣṇa is more intelligent. He . . . Hiraṇyakaśipu was not killed in daytime or nighttime. He was killed in the sandhyā . And so far land, sky and water is concerned, that also was played with tricks, that He killed him on the lap. You cannot say it is land; you cannot say it is sky; you cannot say it is water. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind that His devotee, Brahmā, has given him this benediction . . . without touching all those points. Hiraṇyakaśipu could not accuse Brahmā that, "Sir, you have cheated me." "No. Whatever you wanted, I have given you. You have cheated yourself. You do not know that your knowledge is imperfect. You cannot make it perfect. So that is your folly. But so far I am concerned, whatever you wanted, I said, 'Yes. Yes. Yes.' But I said also that, 'In spite of all this, you'll never live.' That is not possible. But, you fool, you did not take care of it. So in spite of cunningness, you remained a fool. You thought that you are very intelligent, cunning: 'I am now fully equipped; nobody can kill me.' But I said that it is not possible. I never cheated you. You cannot say that I have cheated you." Harikeśa: It's just like in the law. They try to make the law so perfect that no one can get around it. But always there is some very smart lawyer who finds a loophole. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Big lawyer means to find out fault with the present law. That is big lawyer. (break) . . . to be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . (laughs) But these rascals are trying to be more intelligent. Therefore they are called rascals, fools, mūḍha . Harikeśa: Moghāśā . *Prabhupāda: Ah. Moghāśā mogha*-karmaṇo mogha-jñāna-vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). (break) . . . Kṛṣṇa says simple thing, "You surrender unto Me. You'll get all protection." "No, no. That is not possible. I must do according to my own whims. Why shall I surrender?" "All right, go on. I'll give you facility for executing your whims. You'll get it. You do. Try your . . ." This is going on. Kṛṣṇa is giving good advice; he'll not accept it. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind, "All right, you do in your own way. I shall give you all facility." This is going on. That facility is māyā —his mind and māyā . He is desiring. That mind is also given by māyā , so that he can punish him very severely. So māyā has given as mind: "Now you go on desiring. After desiring, desiring, I will give you facility." Harikeśa: Mind is an agent of punishment. Prabhupāda: Yes, this material mind. You see a madman: he is also acting in his mind. The mind is polluted; he is acting differently. Mind is there, but it is covered by some infection. Therefore a madman is thinking this way, that way, this way, that way. That's all. Hari-śauri: Constant anxiety. Prabhupāda: Useless. Killing himself. Hari-śauri: Sometimes a person who goes mad, they have to put them in a padded cell so that they don't harm themselves. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise he will create disadvantage to others. This is the cell—whole material world. You keep yourself within this cell and go on with your madness of mind. Still, Vedic instruction is there that if you do this way, then you go to that planet. If you do this way, then you go to here. Still, there is good. But within that, Kṛṣṇa is saying, mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25): "But you can come to Me also." But he will not take that instruction. Hari-śauri: Coming to Kṛṣṇa means they have to give up all their own personal desires. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is there; simply we have to accept it. If we don't accept it, we suffer. What can be done? If you accept the path of going to hell in spite of higher authorities' instruction, then who can save me? That is going on. Hari-śauri: Rascal. Prabhupāda: He is thinking he has become very intelligent that he can deceive God, deceive spiritual master and be happy. (laughs) He does not know that he can neither deceive God or His representative, guru . That is not possible. But he is thinking like that. And he is being put into suffering condition. Just like ordinary thieves and rogues, they think, "I am deceiving government." But government has got so many agents that he will be arrested. But this sinful government may not be so expert, but how he can deceive the government of Kṛṣṇa? That is not possible. Harikeśa: There's undercover agents in everybody. Prabhupāda: Everywhere, every direction. Hari-śauri: The land, the sky, the . . . Prabhupāda: Everything. Hari-śauri: . . . sun, moon. Everything is witness. Prabhupāda: They are bearing the witness. And especially He is sitting within the heart of everyone, īśvaraḥ sarva . . . how can you deceive Him? Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa knows more about what's going on than we do. *Prabhupāda: Anumantā upadṛṣṭā. Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). How these rascals think that, "I can deceive God"? *Harikeśa: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna (BG 7.15). Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mayācyuta . *Harikeśa: Vigata. Vigata*-jñāna . *Prabhupāda: Vigata*-jñāna, yes. Vijñāna . Hari-śauri: Like children playing, they think that they've become a king or this or that, and they're completely absorbed. Prabhupāda: Why children? The children—the father also. Harikeśa: I think they're all ready. (end) Conversation -- January 17, 1976, Mayapur *Devotee (1): ". . . Sanat Kumāras were going to Vaikuṇṭha to visit Lord Viṣṇu. They were stopped at the door by the doorkeepers, Jaya and Vijaya. But specifically, the Supreme Lord cannot be seen by ordinary eyes. But He can now become visible to the eyesight of the Kumāras. Another significant word is samādhi*-vākyam . Meditators who are very fortunate see the Viṣṇu form of the Lord within their hearts by following the yoga process. But to see Him eye to eye is a different matter. It is only possible for pure devotees. The Kumāras therefore, before seeing the Lord . . ." (break) Bhavānanda: . . . āratika ? Prabhupāda: No. No. That . . . Bhavānanda: They have kīrtanas . . . Prabhupāda: Going on. Bhavānanda: Yes. (break) Devotee (1): They could see the Lord face to face? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhruva Mahārāja saw face to face. (break) Sudama: . . . factured this in Hawaii. (break) *Prabhupāda: So then the chance is lost. Repeatedly Kṛṣṇa is saying: "You give up all this habit. Just become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Sarva*-dharmān . . ." Nobody will hear. "Why shall I not?" There is a Bengali song, cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo keno dekhbo nā : "If it is gratifying to my eyes, why shall I not see a beautiful woman? Why you are forbidding me?" Cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo : "It is pleasing to my eyes. Why you are forbidding me?" This is going on. Cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo. If there is little happiness, don't mind it is flickering; *it will go on. The Carvaka Muni: ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet : "Some way or other prepare foodstuff with ghee." "I have no money." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā : "Just take. Beg, borrow, steal, bring ghee and prepare nice foodstuff and eat, and enjoy life." This is the material world. But śāstra says: "No, no, no. Don't do this. This is the hog's business. Tapo . Just try to go, follow austerity." Even those who are so*-called advanced in knowledge— karmī, jñānī, yogī —they are also after sense gratification. Karmī is openly after sense gratification, and jñānī is subtly, "No, no. This kind of . . ." Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . "Now I shall enjoy Brahman. I shall become God." This is another side, the same sense enjoyment. Because I have failed becoming a minister or becoming a king, becoming a leader, becoming . . . I have failed; now I shall become God. Same sense grati . . . they cannot understand that this is also sense gratification. "I am not . . . no more satisfied by becoming a little minister and king and . . . no. I shall become God. Why shall I . . . by becoming king or minister I beg to the goddess of fortune, 'Mother, give me a little money.' Why shall I beg? I shall enjoy her. I become Nārāyaṇa." Same disease. A yogī also, after mystic power they want to show magic: "I shall make like this, and gold will be there. People will worship me as I am God." Do that. People do that. If you play something wonderful they will accept you: "Oh, you are God." But he does not know that he cannot become God. That is not possible. Although he gets little fractional authority to puzzle others that he has become God . . . because people are fools, if he can produce little gold like this, they will be immediately amazed, "Oh, how powerful he is." They have no capacity to understand. If God is meant for making gold, why not worship the God who has made already millions of gold mines? Unlimited. There is no limit. Why this paltry god? They have no such knowledge. They are amazed. Hari-śauri: They have to go to so much trouble as well just to achieve that little flickering . . . Prabhupāda: Very, very great trouble. You have not seen the yogīs ? Of course, there are some . . . (break) But still, they have to undergo very severe processes for achieving this yogic power. And a devotee, they kick it that, "What is this nonsense?" (chuckles) That is devotee. "What is this nonsense? What shall I do by producing gold?" And I never tried for making gold, but is there any scarcity of gold? I never tried for how to make gold. That Sai Baba is showing some magic power. What of the Maharshi? Maha . . . Harikeśa: Maharishi. Prabhupāda: He was also after some yogic power. Harikeśa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: You were with him. You do not know? "The transcendental meditation—you will get this, you will get that." He is advertising in that . . . Hari-śauri: All material opulence. Harikeśa: Ultimately you will become God. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the attempt. Hari-śauri: And in the meantime, you can enjoy material world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: They never said anything more than you'll just get good sex life and good health. Prabhupāda: That is . . . becoming God means the same—money and sex. That's all. Harikeśa: Wouldn't it be handy, though, to be able to fly around without having to use airplanes? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: I mean, if you had some mystic opulence like being able to fly. Prabhupāda: Yes, the yogīs can do that. Harikeśa: Wouldn't that be handy? Wouldn't a devotee . . . couldn't a devotee utilize that? Prabhupāda: What is the use? What is the use? Harikeśa: Well, instead of taking airplanes here and there, you could just . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the difference? If by practicing severe yogic means you fly, the birds are also flying. They are flying without aeroplane. Does it mean that it has become very great? There are many birds, garuḍa bird. They can fly from one planet to another. Just like small birds, they fly from one tree to another, take rest again—so they fly from this planet to another, take rest, again another. What is the value of your aeroplane? You cannot go to another planet. There are birds, they catch up elephants and take it away for eating. Does it mean he has become . . . it has become God? There are Siddhaloka planets where the people can go without any aeroplane from one planet to another, Siddhaloka. They have got all yogic siddhi automatically, by birth. Just like we cannot fly, but a small bird, a small fly, from the birth it can fly. There are so many. So similarly, by birth they have got all yogic siddhis . This is called Siddhaloka. There are different varieties of planets, different varieties of perfection. Just like here also, I cannot dive into the water. A small fish can dive. I cannot fly in the sky, but a small sparrow, it can go from here, here, immediately. So does it mean he is very advanced in yogic power because he can fly? You are proposing that. Huh? Nothing is any big achievement. The big achievement is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted. Not these things. These things . . . you cannot do; I can do. I cannot do; he can do. What is the greatness? Harikeśa: It seems harder to control the tongue than to fly. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: It seems harder to control the tongue than to fly. Prabhupāda: Fly? Harikeśa: It takes more austerity to control one's tongue by chanting and taking prasādam . *Prabhupāda: Even that is not achievement. To control the senses, that is not very great achievement. The great achievement: how we have become a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So that will include everything. You haven't got to prepare gold, but if you want gold, Kṛṣṇa will send you. So why should I try for that and waste my time? Let me become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is required. Kṛṣṇa . . . yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham ( BG 9.22): "I shall give you all protection. I shall supply whatever you want," Kṛṣṇa said. So I shall do such thing when Kṛṣṇa will be my protector and supplier and everything. He is all-powerful, so He will do that—if I require. I don't require anything. I . . . simply I have to become a sincere, pure devotee. But if I require something, it will come from Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I try for it? A rich man's son, he doesn't do anything for earning money. He knows, "My father is rich, and as soon as I require money, he will give me. So why shall I become a big, big businessman and become a karmī ?" Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upāry adhaḥ (SB 1.5.18). You try for that thing which you did not achieve so long, even if you have traveled from different species of life, different planets. For that thing you try, which you have not achieved. Simply you have become implicated. Hari-śauri: Why bother with something that's available to a hog? Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Why bother with something that is available even to the hogs? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, even if you achieve such thing, achievement, so where is the guarantee that you'll . . . it will stay? The so*-called achievements for sense gratification, that means body. The body is always troublesome. That day I was asking, "Did you taste the Birla's eggplant?" You said: "No, I could not take it," due to the body. So even things are there, the body will not allow you. There are many rich men, they have got money, but they cannot eat anything. Hari-śauri: That John Paul Getty is the richest man in the world, and they asked him, "What would be your wish if you could have anything?" He said: "I just want to be healthy." He said, "I've got so much money, but I'm not healthy." Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many. There was a big, rich man in Calcutta, Raja Jyotindramana Ṭhākura. So just like you give me so many things, so he was king, he was getting more supply, but he had no appetite. So one day he was given so many things—because it was routine. So one coolie was going on the street, taking a fish and chanting very pleasingly. So he said that, "Instead of becoming Raja Jyotindramana Ṭhākura, if I could have been a coolie like that, at least I could enjoy by eating. And what is this? I have got everything, but I cannot eat." He regretted, "I would have become a coolie like that instead of becoming a . . ." Hari-śauri: Everybody's mad after getting some big position, and then when they get it they find out it's even worse than where they started. Prabhupāda: Because the body does not allow. So all, from all sides. We were discussing Prahlāda Mahārāja's . . . how he is experienced of this material way of life. It is all useless. So by following this mahājana devotees we can make our life perfect. Nothing is wanted except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfection of life. That is instruction of . . . na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarim (CC Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4). No, we don't want. Then what do you want? Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatad bhaktir ahaitukī . Without any motive let me become a sincere devotee of Lord. I don't want. That is perfection. Disgusted. Ar' nare bapu . No more. Everything useless. (pause) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Some smell is coming? No? Harikeśa: Your transcendental senses are far beyond . . . Prabhupāda: (door closes) Hmm. Automatically locked. Harikeśa: The ghosts will be here too. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: The ghosts, they will be here too. (end) Conversation -- January 18, 1976, Mayapur *Prabhupāda: . . . Viśvanātha Cakravartī has discussed. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so easy: man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto , four principles. Why people do not take to it? (background talking) Hmm? What is that? Harikeśa: He just wanted to know if someone was allowed to come for darśana . Prabhupāda: Yes, let them come. This time, five to seven? (conchshell sounds) Indian guest: Uni ekjan amader . . . (He is one of our . . .) (break) *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-bhāgavata-dharma is for the person who is not jealous. Paramo nirmatśarāṇāṁ ( SB 1.1.2). This very word is used in the beginning that, "This bhāgavata-dharma is meant for persons who is not jealous." Otherwise the material whole world is full of jealousy. Even during the time of Kṛṣṇa there was Paundra, out of jealousy. And there were so many. Beginning from Kṛṣṇa's birth the asuras , they were jealous: "How to kill Kṛṣṇa." This is the whole mat . . . even in the higher planetary system the jealousy is there, asuras and the devas , devāsura . So our business is, as instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā . This jealousy will go on. Therefore one has to learn how to tolerate jealousy. Kīrtaniyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). If one wants to push on this saṅkīrtana movement . . . Prabhupāda . . . we are insignificant creature. So many persons. You cannot avoid it. The best way is to learn how to tolerate. That is very nice. Otherwise Caitanya Mahāprabhu not have said taror api sahiṣṇunā . That is the best. So we are not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, neither like Prabhupāda, and we shall have to learn to tolerate. Indian guest: Kintu dekhen Prabhupader samay kato biruddhe . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (But see during the time of Prabhupāda (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur) many anti . . .) Prabhupāda: Er yodi biradhita korte pare . . . (If they can protest him . . .) Indian guest: Hobei . . . (This will happen . . .) Prabhupāda: Ta amar biruddhe korbe ei ar . . . eto kichui na. (This is not a big thing if they also protest me . . .) *Indian guest: (indistinct) . . . yara prabhur seva korchen, tader biruddhe hobei. Ora negative contain . . . ba ekta apnar anti party na thakle . . . anya keu na thakle alocana seta . . . (indistinct) . . . tara bujhbe . . . (those who are serving the Lord, people will be against them. They will find out negative content . . . or if there won't, it will be an anti*-party . . . if there won't be different people, then how will that be discussed . . . (indistinct) . . . they will understand . . .) *Prabhupāda Na, bujhuk na bujhuk, ami ye*-sob ya kaj korte beriyechi, keu bujhbe na bujhbe, yay na kono . . . ami . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (No, they understand or not, I went out to do that work, whether they understand or not . . . I . . .) Indian guest: Tobe amar mone hoy, onekei bujhechilen, yara bujhchen na ekhon tara svikar korchen na. Tao tara dukhche, eta amader anander bisay. (But I think many people have understood, who they have understood, they are not admitting. But still they are joining the movement. This is our happiness.) *Prabhupāda: It is clearly written in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta that kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nāhe kṛṣṇa nāma pracāraṇa (CC Antya 7.11). So even they have no common sense, what can be done? Indian guest: Eta svikar korte hobe, Krsna sakti . . . (We have to admit, that is the strength of Kṛṣṇa . . .) *Prabhupāda: No, no, this formula, that this is something new in the history of the world, and still they are jealous, what is this? They are finding fault. In Vṛndāvana, Nṛsiṁha*-vallabha Gosvāmī, you know? He comes to me. He says: "So many people are jealous upon you." I say that, "First of all you create something like me, then you become jealous." Seta khamata nei. (They don't have that quality.) Indian guest: Ami asha kori Maharaj, khub alpo diner madhye sob dekhben apnar anugami hobe. Ami serakam kichu . . . (Mahārāja, I hope they will start following you soon. I have seen something like . . .) *Prabhupāda: Sei janye ami cup*-cap thaki . . . (That's why I remain silent . . .) Indian guest: Ager theke onek sob paribartan hoyeche. Ami ebong khub bhalo bhabei ei katha bolechi ye, ekhon to Maharajer . . . (Many things have changed from before. Simply I told them that, now Mahārāja is . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, se karuk na karuk, amar . . . eto yai hok, ami nije nijei, ascarya hoye yai . . . na ami to kono jealousy mone kori na . . . (No, they take it or not, I . . . whatever, sometimes I get astonished myself . . .) Indian guest: Tate Prabhupād . . . apnar gurudev santusta hoben. (Then Prabhupāda . . . your Gurudeva will be happy.) Prabhupāda: Tabe tara ye dictate kore oita amar . . . tara dictate korbe keno? (But they dictate to me, that's I . . . why do they dictate?) First of all let them become like me. Then . . . Samane, samane bandhutta hobe. Ye baro se dictate korbe, ar ye choto se manyata korbe eta hocche niom. Se samanatao nei, ar unnatao nei tahole dictate kore keno? Ami ki korechi ta diye oder kaj ki? (Equal people will make friends. Seniors will dictate and the junior will obey, this is the rule. But they are not equal to me and they are not superior to me then why do they dictate me?) Indian guest: Seta ami bujhte perechi. (I understand that.) Prabhupāda: Tahole dictate korte yay keno? Eita tader murkhata. Dictate korbe ke? Ye baro. (So why do they come to dictate? This is their foolishness. Who will dictate? Who is superior?) The superior, he will dictate. And yes, equal, they will live like friends. And those who are junior, they should follow and obey. This is the Vaiṣṇava niyama . So those who are neither equal nor higher, how they can dictate? That is their mistake. Either first of all become higher than him—then you dictate—or you be equal with him—then you suggest. You are lower and you want to dictate? What is this nonsense? Bujhte perechen? Eta hocche niyam. Niyamtai jane na. (Do you understand? This is the rule. They even don't know the rules.) By standard, one who is lower, they want to dictate. Indian guest: Ekhane emon abasta, apni to bollen ye, Prabhupad ke ami to apnar ei darshan . . . (indistinct) . . . tarpar amra amader baktabya rakhchi apnar sammandhye, yara buddhi jibi . . . (Here the situation is, you say this, "I have seen Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . after that we have to present a speech on you," those who are intelligent . . .) (loud conchshell) Bās . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian guest: Radharaman M.L.A . . . Radharaman, amader ei Nabadwip . . . (indistinct) . . . royeche, ami congress office bollam, apni asben Jayapataka Maharajke niye gelam okhane . . . (indistinct) . . . apnader bollam ye apni milita hoben ISKCON hacche Prabhupāder . . . (indistinct) . . . ese bollo ye hya ami yabo, kintu kichu lok apatti korlo ye photo rakhte parbe na . . . kintu er madhye . . . apnara . . . Maharaj tomakei pasanda kore na Jayapataka Maharaj, oi apnar Radharaman, ora apatti korlo ye photo kora yabe na. Kintu amar iccha ye dujane ek jaygay ekta photor madhye thaklam. Yai hok se kadin yebe ananda . . . Radharaman ke bollam ye, bhai tumi amake ektu kol dao, yara namer janya sarvasya bhog, bilas tyag kore yader bhoger madhyei janma ebong ei katha yini biswas koraichen yini pascatya jagate e baro sangatik byapar, eta ekta . . . (indistinct) . . . ekhane kichu janbar ba amader bojhbar ache. Ami sir ke niye gelam aslen na. (Radharaman M.L.A . . . Radharaman, in our Nabadwip . . . (indistinct) . . . have, I will go with Jayapataka Mahārāja to the congress office and told them that you will come . . . (indistinct) . . . I told them to join ISKCON, this is Prabhupāda's . . . (indistinct) . . . he told me that, "Yes I will go," but some people refused us to take a photo . . . but meanwhile . . . you . . . that Radharaman doesn't like Jayapataka Mahārāja, that's why they have an objection that a photo can't be taken. But my wish is if we both are together in a single photo. Then I can feel happy someday . . . I told Radharaman to give a place for those who have left everything for this holy name, their sense gratification and all, actually they were born in sense gratification and the person makes them believe in that. That is a very big thing . . . (indistinct) . . . we have many things to know from him. I thought to bring him here but he didn't come.) (break) *Prabhupāda: They may be very big visioner. . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . tarpar yakhan baire ase, ya icche kor, ya icche kor, ya icche kor. Gala ta jariye dhore. Thik sei rakam. Eikhane te bose bhoger borai korle ki hobe? Ar ye Caitanya Mahaprabhu katha ta pracar karo jagate. (after that when they come outside, they do whatever they can. By hugging them. Just like that. Is this okay to feel proud from here? Frost, you have to preach the massage of Caitanya Mahāprabhu,) Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). Eisob asche sob prthivi theke. (They are coming from all over the world.) A pakkā Vaiṣṇava like you, to find out faults, what is this? Rādhārāṇī is . . . kache loke approach kore eita tar gun hocche ye, Rādhārāṇīr kache keu yodi approach . . . Rādhārāṇīr ekta . . . ki bolen? Rādhārāṇī kache approach kore keno loke? Jaya Radhe! Rādhārāṇī ekbar ektu recommendation kore dey, kaj hoye yay. To tini sobi to demand korlen. Khub bhalo bhakta athaca dosh darshi. Radharani mone koren . . . tini janei na keu dosh korte pare. (People approach Rādhārāṇī because she has a special quality, that if someone approaches Rādhārāṇī . . . Rādhārāṇī is . . . what do you say about this? Why do people approach Rādhārāṇī? They say "Jaya Radhe!", because if Rādhārāṇī gives a recommendation once, then the work will be done very easily. So he has demanded everything. He is a good devotee as well as fault seeker. Rādhārāṇī doesn't think that people have any mistakes.) They have not united, they have disunited. And here, practically you see all religions, all nations, all persons, all philosophy. Everything is there. Era ye sob America theke eseche, eder ke ki kichu ghush diye ana hoyeche? (They all came here from America, were they brought in with a bribe?) They have come with their life . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . nicche (taking.) Indian guest: Or yodi bola hoy . . . (indistinct) . . . ei ghush diye deoa hobe . . . (If we told them . . . (indistinct) . . . will give a bribe . . .) Prabhupāda: Ederke bole CIA! (They are called CIA.) Indian guest: Ei holo eder gun. (These are the qualities of them.) Prabhupāda: CIA! Bhakta hoye ar ca paryanta bidi paryanta chere diye, eikhane nece tara . . . (indistinct) . . . lagiye dicche. (They have left tea, bīḍī and everything after becoming a bhakta and they are dancing . . . (indistinct) . . . they are giving.) You know less common sense they have. They haven't got even common sense. Indian guest: Ami apnar sambaraner byabasta kori Krsnanagare, er age kichu lok mane . . . ora to ekta biradhita korbe . . . (I arranged something to welcome you in Krishnanagar, before that, some people means . . . those who will protest . . .) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, so all the money should be given to us. The money actually belongs to Kṛṣṇa. You, by tricks, you are holding it. (knock) Yes? Asun, asun. Bhalo acho? (Please come in. How are you?) Indian men: Bhalo achi. (I am fine.) Prabhupāda: Open this. Open. Indian men: Apnar anumati anusare ami government . . . (According to your permission the government . . .) (break) (end) Conversation -- January 19, 1976, Mayapur Prabhupāda: The stricture of nature's law, that is science. Is it not? Scientific effort. They will never be able to do so, but still, they are . . . to stop death, birth, death, old age, is very major problem, but even in small things you cannot do anything. Everywhere you are dependent. And still, they are very much proud that they are advancing in scientific knowledge so that they can overcome the stringent laws of nature and so on, so on. Durāśaya . It is called durāśaya , hope which will never be fulfilled. Is it not? Durāśaya. Śāstra, Bhāgavata , says, durāśaya . This is their foolishness. They are expecting something which will never be fulfilled. Therefore śāstra says durāśaya . Now what they are doing about the moon planet? Harikeśa: They've forgotten about it. Sudāmā: Now they're trying for Mars. Prabhupāda: Just see. Hele dāntavān keuṭe. A man was trying to capture snake. So there are snakes, hele . There are many snakes; they have no poison, especially the water snake, the hele . So hele dāntavān keuṭe . Keuṭe means cobra. So one cannot capture the poisonless snake, and he is attempting to capture cobra. So they could not go to the moon planet, which is only 1,600,000 miles above the sun, and they are going to Venus, which is far, far away, still. How many miles the Venus is situated? They have committed some mistake. Harikeśa: Yes. Well, they say here it's 600,000 yojanas , which makes 48,000,000 miles—no—480,000,000 miles above the sun. Prabhupāda: So they cannot reach sun . . . they are trying to go above the sun. (someone enters) Asun. Basun. (Please come. Sit down.) Indian guest: Hare Krsna. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Basun. Kothyeke elen? (Sit down. Where are you from?) Indian guest: Ami . . . ei (I am . . . this) . . . (indistinct) (break) It is giving a quotation from the *Vedas*. How to act on Vedic principles, that is called smṛti . Sometimes the original law is explained by one lawyer in detail. So that detailed explanation is like smṛti , and the original law is śruti . In that we have to bathe. Smṛti means which is explaining śruti to understand easily. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we should never think that smṛti is an interpretation. Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not inter . . . it is explanation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like sometimes the smārtas , they argue that if you quote smṛti , it is not as good as śruti . Prabhupāda: Yes. But smṛti . . . just like the Māyāvādīs. They do not accept, because their interpretation of Veda is different. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. So they say that smṛti is an interpretation. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't accept Bhagavad*-gītā , many of them. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what is our answer to such persons? Prabhupāda: We have got our own ācāryas . If you don't accept, I don't accept you. That is my . . . what can be done? Harikeśa: Madhvācārya made a commentary on the *Gītā* where he quoted a Sanskrit verse. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Harikeśa: He quoted a Vedic verse for every Bhagavad*-gītā verse to prove that Bhagavad-gītā is śruti . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Madhvācārya? Harikeśa: Or somebody like that. Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya. Harikeśa: Who? Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has quoted. Harikeśa: Rāmānujācārya. *Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has given quotation from śruti for every verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . (pause) (devotee enters and offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: So read from the . . . Bhavānanda: It starts off with big print: "Ācāryadeva Tridandi Swami Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Mahārāja. All learned men are aware that in the dark days of India when the Hindu religion was in great danger . . ." Prabhupāda: (laughs) This is nonsense. *Bhavānanda: ". . . our Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was born at Śrī Māyāpur, destined to remove the dark clouds which had overshadowed true religious thinking by traveling alone on foot throughout the length and breadth of India. Preaching His gospel of love, He brought about a religious upheaval which put an end to all religious conflicts and suicidal vociferous tendencies. The benign influence of His love philosophy made the whole of India a spiritually united cultural domain. Soul*-enrapturing kīrtana music was organized from one end of the country to the other. A neo-humanism based on love regarded as the highest objective of human existence held sway. The difference between man and man was forgotten, and the fundamental unity of human nature and human destiny was stressed upon. But in the early nineteenth century, true religion was at a very low ebb due to lack of proper publicity of literature and also for want of great ācāryas to propagate the cults in their true aspect. It was a dark period for the Caitanya or Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism when it fell from its highest transcendentalism to the lowest possible degradation because of so many abuses and evil practices which crept into it through plenty of pseudo-followers. Vaiṣṇavism was almost abandoned by the educated section of people. Its literature was hardly read. Kīrtana was looked upon not as a form of prayer but as a means of gratification by people of loose morals. Most of the Vaiṣṇava followers of the period lost their high standard of morality, their loving aestheticism, their intellectual superiority and devotional fervor, which were the main characteristics of the previous masters. The influx of Western ideas came in, and English educated people fell into the hands of Christians. Fortunately, at that time, we got a great Vaiṣṇava savant and scholar, Ṭhākura Kedāranātha Bhaktivinoda, who wrote widely and successfully created an interest among the educated public in Vaiṣṇava religion and literature. His discovery of Śrīdhāma Māyāpur, the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, which was so long hidden from the public eye, gave a new impetus to its propagation. The age of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism set in. Thereafter, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Ṭhākura took hold of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism with a vow to propagate it in its true perspective, even as it was practiced with unparalleled and unprecedented transcendentalism by Śrī Rūpa and Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmīs, followers of Śrī Caitanya. In proper time, he got a great personality who readily shouldered the . . ." Prabhupāda: Just see now: "He got a great personality." He is that personality. He'll also prove that. Bhavānanda: ". . . who shouldered the burden of the mighty mission of Śrīla Sarasvatī Ṭhākura. That great personality is President Ācāryadeva, His Holiness Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktivilāsa . . ." Prabhupāda: But you . . . jaya morena apne morol . This great personality, why he is not accepted by other disciples? How he becames a great personality? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. If one proclaims himself to be the king and no one . . . Prabhupāda: No one accepts him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of king? Prabhupāda: That is called in Bengali, jaya mane apna morol. Morol means the leader of the society, of the village. Here there are morol . So in the village nobody cares for him, and he declares that, "I am morol ." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That person is insane. Prabhupāda: Nobody cares for him, and he is thinking that, "Great personality." Where is his greatness? Who knows him? Just see. So he is making a plan to declare himself a great personality. Bhavānanda: It goes on to explain why he is such a great personality. Prabhupāda: So why explain? If he is great personality, everyone should know. Why he is trying to explain? What is the use of explanation? If a great personality is unknown, and he has to be known by explanatory notes, then how he is great personality? Bhavānanda: Just like the President of the United States. He doesn't have to say, "I am the President." Everyone knows. Prabhupāda: Yes. Go on reading. Bhavānanda: ". . . Tīrtha Mahārāja, who was then known as guru - preṣṭha , "Most dear to his guru ," and also known to the disciples of Śrīla Sarasvatī Ṭhākura as Kuñjada, giver of shelter. In all the missionary works and the management of the maṭhas , Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja was the right hand of his Gurudeva. By his constant, unstinted service rendered to Śrīla Prabhupāda, whose most intimate disciple he was, he almost became a counterpart of that great saint." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. This is not . . . "Counterpart." Jumping. Trying to equal . . . Prabhupāda: So those who are not accepting him, so they are all fools. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is very bad, Prabhupāda. It says he wanted to be . . . he almost became counterpart. That means he is trying to become equal or superior to guru . Prabhupāda: Superior. Bhavānanda: In this first sentence, superior; that Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, his whole mission was dependent upon this great personality, Tīrtha Mahārāja. Not that Bhaktisiddhānta was a great personality, but that the great personality is Tīrtha Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: He has written like that? Bhavānanda: He said: "In proper time he got a great personality who readily shouldered the burden of the mighty mission of Sarasvatī Ṭhākura." That's implying that he is the one responsible. Prabhupāda: He says . . . his impression is like that. Then? Bhavānanda: "In all preaching work, everybody felt the sober but encouraging hand of Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja. Śrīla Prabhupāda never did anything without consulting him first or without his consent. So all the desires for future work of Prabhupāda Śrīla Sarasvatī . . ." Prabhupāda: He does not mention his name. He says . . . all right, go . . . his sannyāsī name is . . . all right. Then? *Bhavānanda: "All the desires for future work of Śrīla Prabhupāda Sarasvatī Ṭhākura used to come to the present ācāryadeva as an impulse first, which he translated into action at once. In spite of a hundred hindrances from so*-called religionists with a vision of a future worldwide mission, Śrīla Prabhupāda established Śrī Caitanya Maṭha at Śrī Māyāpur, the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, on the Phālguna Pūrṇimā day, the seventh March, 1918, which was a red-letter day in the history of theistic religious revival in this age. He started a countrywide movement to carry the message of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to every door. In a hectic manner, within a couple of years, he preached Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism throughout India and sent disciples to England, Germany, and other parts of Europe and Burma to preach the message of Śrī Caitanya and establish sixty-four branches under the name of Śrī Gauḍīya Maṭha throughout India and abroad, and a vast literature flowed through his versatile pen. The large number of publications in different languages and the vigorous missionary activities and door-to-door preaching by the sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs of the Maṭha, who held meetings in the remotest villages, duly spread Śrī Caitanya's teachings, which today are followed in every part of India. His songs are sung in chorus, and a great interest is created among the intelligentsia of India. After having become the president of the institution . . ." In this last paragraph, all of these activities of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, there is no mention of his name. His whole mission, there is actually no mention of his name, that he is the one who has done it. "After having become the president of the institution, Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja has been traveling throughout India and Pakistan preaching the devotional cult of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and he has come in contact with many savants of present India who are all struck with reverent admiration for his deep knowledge of philosophy. Dr. Rādhākamal Mukherjee, vice- chancellor of Lucknow University, remarks, 'There is no more distinguished and erudite interpreter of Śrī Caitanya's Vaiṣṇava thought than His Holiness Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja.' " Prabhupāda: And what is Rādhākamal Mukherjee? *Bhavānanda: " 'He has been a prolific writer and commentator and has traveled and discoursed widely in different parts of India. His profound illuminative discourses have everywhere created a genuine interest in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and in the dynamic religious movement he represents.' There may not be any doubt among the well*-informed people that the Śrī Caitanya Maṭha, with its branches, Śrī Gauḍīya Maṭhas, throughout India and abroad, have been propagating the greatest religion, which, from a realistic point of view, has helped to build up a true civilization. Today, due to the activities of Śrī Caitanya Maṭha, a spiritual thirst has been created, especially among the deep-thinking and educated people of the world, for people from all over the world are coming to this institution to learn and follow the great religion of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and to understand the practical Indian way of life. Today the headquarter extends over a mile, with beautiful temples, yet standing in an atmosphere of absorbing silence of meditation and worship, surrounded on all sides by emerald green paddy fields and the Ganges flowing hard by, far from the madding crowd's strife and strain. Māyāpur is now an enchanted place, the abode of peace. The atmosphere of the place is charming. The chanting of the holy name of Hari all day and night takes one to a celestial place." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't hear the chanting from their maṭha all day and night. Bhavānanda: No, it's only from here. "It is more heavenly than heaven itself. It is the sacred Vṛndāvana of Bengal, hallowed by the dancing steps of the Lord, and its air is purified by His noble call to prayer. Whoever pays a visit to her will leave her with regret, and those who have not yet visited the place will carry their regrets unto death." Prabhupāda: So he is making some propaganda that he is the . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, just like in the woods the jackal is always crying that he is the king, but who cares for him? What is his qualification? Prabhupāda: So do we require to . . .? There is no use. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, our answer is all of these books. Prabhupāda: That's all. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our answer is twenty*-four-hour kīrtana, prasādam distribution . . . Prabhupāda: And you keep it very carefully in the file. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should answer him by our preaching, by our vigorous preaching. Bhavānanda: Many people must be asking him, "What about this ISKCON maṭha ?" That's why he is . . . it's driving him mad. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's speaking against us all the time. He never says anything good about us. Prabhupāda: No, he is very envious about us. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I think now he must have come to the conclusion that there is no way to stop us, so he is thinking how he can . . . I have a hunch he is thinking how he can become connected in some way to get some benefit. That's why he is sending this man, this maṭha commander. Because he sees now there is no way he can stop us, so he is thinking, "How can I connect somehow with them? Because they have so much money, and they're going to be doing so many big things, I must establish a connection with them." Prabhupāda: So he wants to establish connection with us and . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think so. Prabhupāda: . . . and describe that he has . . . just like Mādhava Mahārāja also attempted. This is the attempt. So, what we have to do in this connection? Let them do whatever nonsense they want. We shall do our own business. And we have no business to propagate that we are making . . . people already know us all over the world. So . . . but suppose if he makes an attempt to mix with us so that he can take advantage, his main policy is that we may go there. That is his . . . because if we do not go, then all their propaganda makes him not very important if we go there . . . if we do not go there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why does he depend upon our going there to become important? Prabhupāda: Because he is visualizing that by our propaganda throughout the whole world, people will come here. That he has already seen. And if we do not go there, then he becomes insignificant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "If we don't" means if anyone from all over the world who comes . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Bhavānanda: People are attracted by the Westerners coming to the maṭha . So if we're up at that maṭha , any of us, and then they say: "Just see." They say in Bengali, "Just see. They are coming. To see our Guru Mahārāja, they are coming." Prabhupāda: That was the policy of Mādhava Mahārāja and Śrīdhara Mahārāja that, "Although Bhaktivedanta Swami is propagating throughout, he is subordinate to us, under our instruction." So all these three . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A real dream world they are living in. Bhavānanda: Here they have even included our temple in their domain. "The headquarters extends for over a mile, with beautiful temples and paddy fields." When we put up our wall, then they will not be able to include us. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what we should . . . the point is that no matter how much they press for any kind of mixing, our first point is, "You come here and visit us." And he'll never do that. Never do that. And we should not . . . we already invited him twice, so we don't have to give any more invitation. We should simply say verbally, "Let Tīrtha Mahārāja come here, as we have come so many times. Then we can speak about some kind of cooperation." Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: I remember, Śrīla . . . you walked there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: From here you walked all the way . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twice Prabhupāda has visited and personally requested, and he won't come here. And now . . . the thing is, now he might say: "If you give it to me in writing, I will come," but we'll say: "We have already personally come. Our spiritual master has come twice personally, and now you have to simply come. The invitation is already given. Now Tīrtha Mahārāja should come here." He'll never do that. Bhavānanda: He'll never come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. So then that way we don't have to cooperate. Prabhupāda: So this paper you keep, because these rascals, they may create some trouble. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of trouble? Prabhupāda: Trouble like this, just like he was detained. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was that? Bhavānanda: When I had that . . . Prabhupāda: They can file some complaint inducing something. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it was very interesting. Last night that complaint . . . my lawyer was this man who was sitting right here last night, this old man, Nandulal? He was my lawyer. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Bhavānanda: And he is the one who asked me, "Who is behind this case?" He asked me when we brought him from Krishnanagar. Because he is considered the best lawyer in Nadia, so we brought him in, and as we were leaving, after the first time I appeared, he said, "There is someone . . . this man is a farmer, laborer. Who has put him up to this?" He said, "There is someone behind this." So he asked me, "Was it Śrīdhara? Someone of the Gauḍīya Maṭha is behind this." But he came last night with them, this lawyer, old man. He came with them. So they were definitely the ones behind it. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhavānanda: They were definitely the ones behind that case. They somehow got their hands on that man and had him bring charges, even though the whole thing was dropped, you know. Prabhupāda: Who was behind them? Bhavānanda: Well, this man, he mentioned Śrīdhara Mahārāja's name. He said: "Some Gauḍīya Maṭha person." Prabhupāda: He's a very good lawyer. Bhavānanda: Yes. He's retired, but he's the most respected lawyer in Nadia. So he mentioned. Prabhupāda: So he was in our side. Bhavānanda: Yes. So he had mentioned, "Someone from the Gauḍīya Maṭha." He said: "You have many enemies." He said: "This man would not have thought of this kind of thing, to do this kind of thing. Someone had to . . ." Prabhupāda: Who? Bhavānanda: When I had to go to court to appear for having kidnapped that woman and her son, that I was holding the woman and her son by force—the husband placed charges—so this lawyer said, "That . . . he was a simple man, a little crazy. He wouldn't have done it or had the money to do it. Someone with some more intelligence, higher intelligence, is behind him, goading him on, telling him what to do." He asked who did I think it was? He mentioned Gauḍīya Maṭha, and he asked for any . . . did I know any particular personalities. I said: "No." He said: "What about Śrīdhara Swami?" I said I didn't know who it was. Someone. Prabhupāda: So if Śrīdhara Swami was behind . . . maybe. There is no . . . Bhavānanda: The point is that they can make so much trouble like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Small troubles. *Bhavānanda: Yes, little harassment. Then I even . . . of course, I don't know. I even question . . . just like that Lalita Bose, that whole incident which Jayapatākā told you about. Who knows? She is so influenced by . . . she is big, so*-called Vaiṣṇava, and known in so many circles in Bengal. Who is influencing her? You know? Anyway, we simply stay on our land and develop our program. He is going mad. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhavānanda: He is becoming mad. Prabhupāda: Who? Bhavānanda: Tīrtha Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: (laughs) How? Bhavānanda: Well, the more he hears. Because he gets so many reports. So many people are coming here, and no one is going there. Even . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His mentality is becoming like Kaṁsa, I think. At every moment he is thinking, "This Prabhupāda, Prabhupāda . . ." Prabhupāda: So who . . .? Somebody inquired him that "What is this called? So many people are coming." Huh? Bhavānanda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He knows no one is coming there. Not very many more people are coming there than are here. Because most of the people come here . . . Prabhupāda: That they are realizing that, "We are becoming insignificant gradually." That they are realizing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one goes to Mādhava Mahārāja's maṭha at all. The only maṭha that they still visit is that Śrī Caitanya Maṭha. And they have no money, so that place is becoming so dilapidated that no one is going there either. And there's no life there. There's no young people. There are no . . . Prabhupāda: No, how they can? They cannot feed them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were speaking this morning, Bhavānanda Mahārāja and myself, that we were wondering if we could make like . . . you know, like so many people come here to eat prasādam . On the weekends, at least two to three thousand people come. So we were wondering whether it would be proper to make some kind of propaganda that, "If anyone wants to enroll their children here, their young boys in our gurukula , that they can . . ." Prabhupāda: So a similar counterpart leaflet you should that, "International Society for Krishna Consciousness, world organization, established by His Divine Grace, and anyone can come here and take foodstuff. We have got arrangement," like this. In suitable words you write and issue another pamphlet. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bengali. Prabhupāda: In Bengali and in English. Which may not touch there, but we write in our own way, that, "By the order of his guru he went to America. Then he . . ." That's a fact. What is the fact, that should be written. Give the list of the books and so on, so on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: List of the temples. *Prabhupāda: Yes, temples. And "He is the ācārya of the present Gauḍīya*-sampradāya." Bhavānanda: If we simply state the facts, there is no need for us to subtly infer or to exaggerate, because your activities are so glorious that . . . Prabhupāda: And invite anyone who is interested to become devotee. We shall provide place, food, education to the children. In this way make another statement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm just wondering . . . I was thinking that whether we . . . Prabhupāda: Without touching them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is . . . of course, we'll do this also. What about, like, all of these people coming? This is my point, that so many poor people are coming here. Practically they don't even have enough money to take care of their children properly. So whether we can make some verbal announcements, and whether we can set up a little table at the prasādam pavilion that, "Anyone who would like to enroll their sons in our school can do so"? Because many of these people can't take care of their children properly. I'm thinking when they see our boys they may want to give their sons. Prabhupāda: Yes, they will give. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that a good program? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can get many . . . I think we could get many, many men that way. Prabhupāda: The children, they are enjoying. In the morning they are enjoying. That is wanted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they're in ecstasy. Bhavānanda: All day they enjoy. When they are sweeping the road, they don't know that there's difference between work and play. Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhavānanda: To them, sweeping the road is their play. They love it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These children are much more hard working than the children in America. Like these few American boys that are here, they cannot compare with these Bengali boys. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their service attitude is much, much better. I think we should . . . Prabhupāda: By association they will be also. Bhavānanda: Yes, they have also improved. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jagaman has. Bhavānanda: Jagaman is wonderful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He works very hard. So I think we should try to get as many of these young boys as we can. We should use the facility of this prasādam distribution. Prabhupāda: The thing is that whether we should . . . this pamphlet, I don't think it has got any value. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has no value, Prabhupāda. What we should do is build this temple. If we just build this temple . . . this is my point. Let us build this temple immediately. Once this temple is built, everything is finished. All the glowworms are completely extinguished. There will be nothing left. They can do anything they want, and nothing will matter. If they have a 350*-story building . . . 350-foot building with escalators, with huge compounds, then everything is ended. Prabhupāda: So do like that, like America. *Bhavānanda: He can come here and stand outside and scream, "I am the ācārya*-deva ." Just like in America so many people are saying: "I am Napoleon." No one . . . Prabhupāda: That everyone says. That is not . . . Bhavānanda: We have to build this temple, because . . . Prabhupāda: So make something like American which is wonderful for the world. So you are Americans. You must do something. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we build this temple with escalators and the people go in the temple and they go up the escalator . . . Harikeśa: They'll never come back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . do you think that they're going to then go down the road to go into Śrī Caitanya Maṭha? Why would . . . what is the point of it after doing something like that? They'll never go. Prabhupāda: And if you can arrange some . . . what is called, that? This heliocopter. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Helicopter. Prabhupāda: Bringing our men from Dum Dum airport to our roof. Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: There are at least four roofs like this. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. The people will see. All the pilgrims will see. Like the demigods flying in. Prabhupāda: At least we can make a show—it is coming twice in a day and going twice in a day. And they will see that, "Oh, so many people are coming." *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you have to . . . the thing is, we're simply waiting for your go*-ahead, because unless we get the land and we can begin, we can't start this. Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa has sent him. Let him come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We shouldn't delay. If we . . . this is a little pamphlet. If we issue a counter pamphlet, it's not . . . I don't think it's such an important thing. The thing to do is to do something . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, practical. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . so significant that this becomes useless. Not that we issue another thing of this nature. Harikeśa: This is already useless. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I mean, what is the use of issuing another piece of paper against this paper? Let us make a skyscraper temple; then they can think what will be the comparison between this . . . Bhavānanda: On every level. Even the people this invitation was issued to. But they come, and when they come on Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura's appearance day, they all come down the road to here to visit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really. Bhavānanda: Even he gives off so much energy inviting this one and that one, they all come. They all want to come down the road. They at least come down for darśana here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They do? Bhavānanda: Yes, they have to. They've all been here. They all know it. They come with different personalities, different friends . . . in Krishnanagar, we are like the cinema in terms of entertainment. As soon as any man, any official, government official, his friends come from Calcutta, immediately they get in one of their government jeeps and they drive out here and come to see the ISKCON Maṭha, Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir. Immediately. So many men, they come all the time with their friends from Calcutta. Same thing in Navadvīpa. They come for an evening's . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: Fully satisfied. The woman puts on her sārī , the man dresses up in his kurtā . . . Prabhupāda: So our arrangement should be to give them some prasadam , very nice treatment. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've got to do this. We've got to do this. Prabhupāda: And if important man should write something in the visitor's book . . . reception. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There should be a reception, proper receptionist. Prabhupāda: So where the reception? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will sit? Bhavānanda: We'll make some arrangement. Prabhupāda: Make it immediately. Reception. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Nitāicānda is really first class. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nitāicānda is very good. Prabhupāda: Nitāicānda plus somebody very educated should be there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about that . . . who do we have like that that speaks Bengali? Bhavānanda: Subhaga. Oh, they love Subhaga. He preaches in the temple at the book table during the busy hours. So many people buy books, and all interested. He's very . . . Prabhupāda: Subhaga. Subhaga make the chief of the reception. And Nitāicānda his assistant, and another, a foreigner. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nitāicānda is in charge of the building. Bhavānanda: He has so much to do anyway, Nitāicānda. Subhaga is best. Prabhupāda: Subhaga and two foreigners. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As assistants. Hmm. Prabhupāda: Make that arrangement. He is very good boy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he is really good. Prabhupāda: And he has understood the philosophy. He has got ten years' experience of London. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I met him in the London airport, and I told him, "Why don't you come to India?" 'Cause I saw him. I thought he'd be really helpful here. So, Prabhupāda, another thing, is there any need to increase our prasādam distribution? Like right now about a thousand people come. Prabhupāda: No, what . . . they are coming, but if you see that more are coming, then increase. There is no question of advertising. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There isn't. We shouldn't advertise. *Prabhupāda: Rather, you make some arrangement that there will be prasādam *-selling there, and anyone comes within the temple, give him something. Just like I give here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we don't do that at all. Bhavānanda: We do. Everyone who comes in the temple, they get that miṣṭi baḍā . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone? Bhavānanda: Everyone. Prabhupāda: Miṣṭi baḍā ? Bhavānanda: Miṣṭi baḍā we give, gūr and peanut with little coconut in it and masalā . Oh, we're famous now in the whole area. Even Jayapatākā was seeing one government official in Krishnanagar, and he said: "Did you bring me any of that baḍā ?" They all want. Prabhupāda: Anyway, something must be given. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, if we get a good cook like Shantilal and he can cook hundreds of singāra or kacaurī and we can sell, and then the next room have one men who serves them prasādam , everyone will come to take prasādam . Prabhupāda: Keep nice water, sitting place. They will take. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of sitting place? On the floor with mats, or benches and tables? Prabhupāda: Benches, table will be nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Better. Like in a South Indian house. The South Indian restaurants, they have those . . . of course, those are fancy, like in Vṛndāvana. In the South Indian restaurant they always have a table with marble top. Then they put a leaf on it. Very nice. Harikeśa: There is room down there. That big room can be used as like a restaurant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where? Harikeśa: The next floor down on the end, where they sometimes have class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda wants it up there where they sell the prasādam . Bhavānanda: They will buy in some leaf cup and then go next door and have a place to sit down and take it, and then water to wash their . . . actually, there's a pump. Everything is right there. Prabhupāda: You will find such confectioner's shop, sitting place and eating. Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like that. Bhavānanda: Just like in Navadvīpa. Harikeśa: They have that near the Gopīnātha temple in Vṛndāvana. Everybody goes there. That is very big. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should make a nice sweet, sweetmeats also. Harikeśa: Lugloos is big there. Those lugloos . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should make many types of sweetmeats. There should be so many preparations, all offered to the Deity. People can purchase mahā*-prasādam. Oh, it will be very big. When you read in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, every time Caitanya Mahāprabhu's devotees are purchasing prasādam from Jagannātha temple, all the time. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the system. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It sounds like they make a huge quantity at Purī, huge quantities of foodstuffs. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Any time you can get one thousand man's eatables. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Any time? But we only offer one little plate at ārati . Prabhupāda: No, that you can increase as the demand is increased. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is such a demand in Purī? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone goes. They do not cook. He purchases prasādam and eat. Everyone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's so famous. Yes, whenever someone visits there they always bring back prasādam from Jagannātha. *Prabhupāda: It is . . . fifty*-six time, prasādam is offered there. Fifty-six time. Harikeśa: It's constant. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: It's constantly being offered, all day long. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Once offered, ārati is performed. Then it is taken away, washed, the room. Again half an hour after . . . why half an hour? Fifteen minutes after. Throughout the whole day and night, fifty*-six times. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Night also. *Prabhupāda: Night . . . not night. But up to late night. So fifty*-six time, chāppānna , within twenty-four hours, so just imagine. Harikeśa: Four or five times an hour. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we have to do that at this temple. Prabhupāda: Every fifteen minutes new set, prasādam . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You need a whole lot of Shantilals to do that. Prabhupāda: And these ingredients are supplied by Jagannātha's own field. They grow it, and they . . . so there is no, I mean, difficulty. They grow and they sell. They get money so they can maintain the establishment. A long time. There are potters. Daily they will supply for each prasādam a new pot. It cannot be used again. So few people purchase with pot, original pot, and they have got a fixed price. This big pot, say, five rupees, this pot, two rupees; this pot, one rupee. So as you like, you can purchase. Very nice system. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You went there sometimes to take prasādam ? *Prabhupāda: Yes, I became a guest. A gentleman was our tenant, and he gave me introduction letter to his brother*-in-law. He was a pleader in Jagannātha Purī. So he received me very well. So he offered me lunch, and I saw there was something, a small ball-like, in the pot, bowl. So I asked: "What is this?" He said: "It is meat." (laughs) He was eating meat, so he thought it is good reception, the guest is offered nice meat. So I said, "No, you . . . what is? I never took meat. I never expected; this is Jagannātha . . ." So then he became very much ashamed. He said: "I did not know. I thought this is the best . . ." Then, "Never mind." Then I stopped eating there. At that time I was a boy. After appearing in my B.A. examination there was holiday, so I went to Jagannātha Purī in 1920 or something like that. So I was married in 1918. So some of the friends of my wife, they said that, "Your husband now gone. He is not coming back." So after returning I understood she was crying. (laughs) So anyway, then I used to purchase prasādam in the market. They were bringing, and I was eating. I stayed for three, four days, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that when you were very young you always used to calculate what was the cost of a ticket to Purī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Every day I was seeing how to go to Jagannātha Purī and how to go to Vṛndāvana. At that time a fare was, for Vṛndāvana, four or five rupees, and similarly for Jagannātha Purī. So I was thinking, "When I shall go?" That's all. I took first opportunity to go to Jagannātha Purī after my examination, and in business connection when I went to Agra, then I first of all took the opportunity to go to Vṛndāvana from Agra. This was in 1925, and I visited Jagannātha Purī sometime in 1920. And '25 I went to Vṛndāvana. I remember, in those days I was sitting within the car, and there was some prasādam . One monkey entered and took away everything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the train compartment. Prabhupāda: Hmm. They are very clever. Many times in Vṛndāvana the monkeys have taken away from my hand foodstuff. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While you were eating. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Thrice . . . at least thrice, four times I remember. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You wanted them to take it? You were offering . . . Prabhupāda: No, suppose a big monkey comes and takes. You are stumped. (laughter) You have to give him. No other way. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They will attack otherwise. *Prabhupāda: In Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple I was cooking, the other room. So although the door was closed, he knew. He opened the door and took away. Sometimes they would take away the . . . (door opens) Come on. The, what is called, dough? For . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cāpāṭis ? Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi . So they will eat that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Raw dough. Prabhupāda: You gave him some book, this Surendra? Jayapatākā: That was a long time ago I gave one book. Since then you told me not . . . you wrote that don't give any books, but that was a long time ago I gave. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So you have talked and dealt with him? Jayapatākā: He came to me and said he wanted a job here. He said he wanted to be our manager, this and that. And then he was hinting about that they were getting one wage, one allowance, so he was expecting to get some allowance also, a little more. Prabhupāda: So he is coming now. What is the purpose? Jayapatākā: He wanted to be our . . . to work for us. To work for Your Divine Grace, maybe. Prabhupāda: How did you find him by dealing with him? Jayapatākā: I didn't find him. He found me. Prabhupāda: No, no, how you have . . .? How do you . . .? Jayapatākā: Oh, how did I find . . . how did . . .? Well, I know that influentially he is, in the district level, he is very influential. I mean to say that he has got very good relations with all the government people and all the local people. And whenever I go somewhere to invite them for any festival, any function, they would always speak highly of Surendra Das and that he had just about a week ago before, he had already invited them for the Caitanya Maṭha. So he is very active in that way, something which we don't have time or understanding to do, so many of us. He knows how to receive people and make them feel very nice and then show them around. He has got that . . . a nice personality like that, and he is very active in . . . Prabhupāda: So if we engage him, do you think we shall get some good service? Jayapatākā: I don't know the . . . I know that he is able to perform good service. As far as whether he'll . . . other people tell me that since he's been working for the Caitanya Maṭha . . . (break) (end) Conversation in Bengali -- March 6, 1976, Mayapur (Bengali Meeting with Godbrothers) (Translated from Bengali) Devotee: (announcing in English) Prabhupāda goes to the Caitanya Math in Māyāpur in the morning of March 6th, 1976. Speaking with his Godbrothers there. (laughter) (Śrīla Prabhupāda’s bhajan playing in the background) Prabhupāda: Do I need to get up? Is there going to be kirtan ? Devotee: Yes. Please let us go there. Devotee: Take the seats to the temple . . . (indistinct) (laughter) Prabhupāda: You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. ( mṛdanga and karatālas playing) (break) *Prabhupāda leads the prema*-dhvani prayers and all the assembled devotees repeat after him: Prabhupāda: All glories to the assembled devotees. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: All glories to the assembled devotees. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: All glories to the assembled devotees.Thank you very much. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa! (chants pranam mantras) Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! (conversation between Śrīla Prabhupāda and his Godbrothers. regarding preaching in the Middle East. mostly indistinct) Prabhupāda: In the Middle East, we’ve organised programs . . . Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Where? Prabhupāda: In the Middle East . . . Arabia . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (to devotee) What’s the name of that Professor? (indistinct) Prabhupāda Disciple (1): Doctor N . . . (indistinct) He’s the most eminent scholar in Iran. He’s received our books very well. What has he said about our books? Prabhupāda Disciple (2): That . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda Disciple (2): . . . represents the real Vedic tradition. *Prabhupāda: He’s Muslim but appreciates mantra*-vidya . (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: They will accept everywhere but slowly. They will accept slowly. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: Even in Japan. The problem is with the language. The Japanese boys are very good. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: They do not understand English? Prabhupāda: They know but very little. They are philosophical. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: I heard in Germany . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, in Germany it is big . . . Prabhupāda's Godbrother: West Germany? Prabhupāda Disciple (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: In Poland, Slovakia, Rome. Prabhupāda's disciple: Even Hungary. Prabhupāda: Hungary . . . Prabhupāda's disciple: Hong Kong. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In Germany we have published Caitanya Caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Have you read a page or two? Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Yes. (laughter) . . . (indistinct) . . . is the fourth chapter completed? Prabhupāda: All completed. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Seventeen volumes. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: (recites an inaudible verse) I want to read that part. Prabhupāda: It is there . . . Prabhupāda's Godbrother: That part I want to read. Prabhupāda: All complete. Seventeen volumes. Prabhupāda Disciple (2): Beautiful colour illustrations.Wonderful paintings inside. Prabhupāda: Hmm . . . seventeen volumes. In all universities, colleges, professors . . . have given standing orders. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: You may like to give one set to Prabhupāda's library. Prabhupāda: Sure. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) (laughter) Prabhupāda and Devotees: ( japa ) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (inaudible) In New Vṛndāvana, we manufacture a lot of ghee. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Ghee? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Everyday, there is one thousand pounds of ghee. I have started a farm there. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Really? *Prabhupāda: There is one thousand pounds of milk . . . (indistinct) . . . they give fifty*-sixty pounds of milk, each. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: New Vṛndāvana . . . how much land is there . . . land . . . how much land? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Land? Prabhupāda: One thousand acres. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: One thousand acres? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Where? In New Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda's Godbrother: (chuckling) In New Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: One thousand acres? Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Yes. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: (chuckling) Was it just lying there? Prabhupāda: There is plenty of land in America. (indistinct background conversation) Prabhupāda: Proper utilisation is not happening. This is what I keep saying, that there’s so much available land on this planet. If there can be proper utilisation of this land, then ten times the numbers of the existing population of this planet can be fed. (laughter) Prabhupāda: They say there is over population. This is nonsense. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: India has too much . . . Prabhupāda: Nowhere has that (overpopulation) happened. That is a foolish person's idea. (laughter) Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Land utilisation has not happened. Prabhupāda: We understand . . . " eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān " (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). So what even if there is overpopulation, can He not feed everyone? (laughter) *Prabhupāda: All these theories are due to a 'God*-less' civilisation. (laughter) Prabhupāda: When Mahārāja Pṛthu asked, "Why are you not giving them?" Then what did Mother Earth reply? She said, "I will not give the demons. I will not give them." Prabhupāda's Godbrother: Yes. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: When human beings become demonic, they are going to starve to death. 'God*-less'. Otherwise, is there any dearth in Bhagavān's (the Supreme Person) kingdom? It is said, "eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān" (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is feeding everyone . . . overpopulation . . . the birds and animals, do they care about overpopulation? (laughter) They eat as must as they need. They take care of one dozen off-spring. Does overpopulation affect them? This is foolish. The most important thing is stated in the Bhāgavatam (śloka) but they want to starve and kill them. (laughter) *Prabhupāda's Godbrother: This is most important. If everyone is 'God*-centric', then there is no problem. *Prabhupāda: Yes, then there is no problem. As we have observed, one year there is an abundance of mangoes, another year there were hardly any. This is in nature's hands. God can give in abundance, even when there is an abundance of population. If someone chooses to be foolish and demonic (inaudible). Yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham ( Bhagavad-gītā 10.10) There is no lack in Bhagavān's kingdom. Prabhupāda's Godbrother: The thing is . . . (indistinct) (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Prabhupāda has said that the only thing lacking is Hari*-bhakti . Lack of Hari-kathā . (indistinct conversation) *Prabhupāda: There's a famine of Hari*-kathā (Kṛṣṇa's words). I have seen, they discard wheat into the ocean. They opine that if there is overproduction of food-grain, then the prices will go down if there is an abundance. Because when there is over-supply, prices will reduce, so they throw the food-grains. (end) Conversation -- March 16, 1976, Mayapur *(Conversation With Radha*-Damodara Sankirtana Party) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Some men can come through the other room and stand out here. Devotee: Some devotees are going to have to go around. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You lead them, Gargamuni. Prabhupāda: Get this fan on. Fan and lights. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fan and lights. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: On behalf of all the bhaktas and Rādhā Dāmodara, we'd like to offer you this dakṣiṇā . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya . *Prabhupāda: You know, if Kṛṣṇa is virāḍ*-rūpa —so big mouth, so big belly—that, whatever you give, that is not sufficient. (chuckles) So here we are spreading Kṛṣṇa's mouth very widespread. Here is the plan for Māyāpur temple. This is the . . . this is only residential quarter. Real temple is not yet constructed. It will occupy 350 acres of land. So you are the pillars of this construction work. We are doing all your construction work on your contribution. So go on preaching and distributing books. If we get the . . . we are . . . books are . . . as your pushing on the sale is very nice, then the customers are also nice. These are American Express? No, no. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Barclay's Bank. Prabhupāda: Now everyone is issuing these traveler's check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But these are issued differently. In American Express, they charge some money, but these are freely given. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Then why the American Express will remain if people will go there? Free service to the constituent, those who are customer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think even to those who are not the constituents also. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . The public also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This happens to be our bank that we deal with. Prabhupāda: Barclay Bank is big bank, American bank. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This Ādi*-keśava Swami, his grandfather is Mr. Barclay. (laughter) Prabhupāda: It is grandfather's bank? *Ādi*-keśava: Great-uncle. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Great*-uncle. Prabhupāda: You are Mr. Barclay also? No. *Ādi*-keśava: Different name. Prabhupāda: So our . . . they are accommodated in how many buses? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Currently in six buses and six airports, because Tripurāri Mahārāja leads about twenty*-five men distributing in different airports around the country, and then there's another hundred men who are working out of six buses. Now two more buses are being built to accommodate everyone. And then another ten men are working at our bus construction head office. Prabhupāda: So, of course, you are not going to be absent for many, many days. You come and go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There won't be any difficulty, because every . . . Prabhupāda: They are trained up. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . training, that is the real perfection. And our Tripurāri Mahārāja is there, and Viṣṇujana Mahārāja. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja is very expert, and Madhudviṣa Swami will be helping them. *Prabhupāda: A devotee's one qualification is dakṣa, dakṣa, expert. Out of the twenty*-six qualifications, a devotee is always very expert in dealing. It is not that because they have left anything material, they do not know how to deal with material things. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī did it. Perhaps you know the story. Political. Although he had nothing to do with material things, when there was a political gain, he tackled it very nicely when he was young man. But devotee, although not interested in material things, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake they deal with material things very expertly. That should be the qualification of a devotee: expert. Not that, "I have nothing to do with these material things." No. The devotee's vision is: in everything there is Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. Just like we are using this Dictaphone and tape record. It is material things. Sometimes they accuse that, "You are against material things. Why you are using these material advantages?" Do they not? You do not meet such men? *Ādi*-keśava: Yes. *Prabhupāda: But for us there is nothing material. We have no such vision as "material" and "spiritual." Material means when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right. That is material. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram ( BG 5.29). He is the proprietor, He is the enjoyer. So, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything Kṛṣṇa's. So when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right on everything, that is material. Otherwise there is nothing material; everything spiritual. Everything is generated by Kṛṣṇa's energies, and there are two energies: material energy and spiritual energy. So in the material energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is less or nil. And in spiritual energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is prominent and very acute. I think I give this example somewhere—just like this nail, and just little below, there is skin. Both of them are my body, but in the skin there is sensation; *in the nail there is no sensation. But both of them are coming from the same source, the body. Similarly, everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ (SB 1.5.20). Everything is Bhagavān, but it appears like different to the different vision. Therefore we take everything, kṛṣṇa*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.26). Everything . . . in everything there is Kṛṣṇa's relationship. So there is no question of giving it up. Why shall I give it up? This is Kṛṣṇa's property. Why shall I give it up, prāpañcikatayā buddhyā , by mistaking it as material? Kṛṣṇa-sambandhi-vastunaḥ . So these Māyāvādīs, they say the brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā : "This material world is false, and Brahman is reality." And we don't say that. Everything is reality because it comes from reality. When it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is unreality. It is not properly being used. Otherwise there is no such thing as unreality, because it is coming from reality. So why shall I give it up, tyāga ? Neither tyāga , neither bhoga . Everything utilize for Kṛṣṇa. This is our way. Any question on this regard? I saw your wife also. She is here. Bhagavān: Yes. She is here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Practically all of these devotees are so much dedicated to book distribution that they are going out now nearly seven days a week, without stoppage. Prabhupāda: Utsāhān . *Utsāhā is the basic principle, utsāhān and sādhu*-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), association of sādhu . Simply utsāhān and the association is not sādhu —then it is material. Utsāhā means association of sādhu. Sādhu means devotee. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). Who is sādhu ? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. One who has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa, he is sādhu . So the association of such sādhu . . . sādhu, sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge . Whatever a sādhu does, there is no fault. Everything is right. But still, because we are in this material world, we shall act in such a way that nobody can accuse us. Sato vṛtteḥ. Sādhu is above all this vṛtta , but still, you keep pace with the material world; otherwise your activities will be hampered. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has said sato vṛtti : "The dealings should be very honest." Sato vṛtteḥ sādhu saṅge, ṣaḍbhiḥ , six items. Utsāhān , enthusiasm; dhairyāt , patience. Utsāhān dhairyāt niścayāt , with confidence. So enthusiasm, patience, confidence. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt. *Prabhupāda: Tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt . You have to act according to the prescribed way, and sato vṛtteḥ , and dealings very honest, and sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83). Everything perfect. So where you are all staying? In new quarters? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we have been very fortunate. They have given us . . . just as you have this wing, they have given us the whole wing on the next floor above. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very comfortably situated. *Prabhupāda: Everything, water supply, everything is there? In the beginning I thought that "Such a big building. Who will come and live here?" (laughter) It is that Matsyāvatāra. You know Matsyāvatāra? Keśava dhṛta*-mīna-śarīra, jaya jagadīśa hare . That one muni , he took water in his pot. He saw a fish. So after some time he saw the fish has grown, that it cannot be kept in that kamaṇḍalu . Then he gave more space. Then after some . . . he saw, he has . . . "It is filled up." Again more, again more. Then he threw it in the ocean, and again still big. (chuckles) That is Kṛṣṇa. Pralaya-payodhi-jale dhṛtavān asi vedam . And do you know this song: *Similarly, Varāha*-mūrti also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? When I was very young, in the house I was living in, my friend, his father was from Louisiana, where they have many alligators. This was in New York. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Louisiana means near . . . around Florida. Prabhupāda: Oh. Many . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Alligators, crocodiles. Prabhupāda: Crocodile. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So one day his father brought him two little crocodiles as a pet back to New York, where we were living. So he was keeping them in the bathtub. But just as you described, they started to grow, and eventually they became so big that he had to keep them in the house, and then they were running. And anyone that would come in, they would run. (laughter) Finally they had . . . Prabhupāda: Very ferocious. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had to give them to the zoo, New York Zoo. Prabhupāda: But I understand they can be tamed also. Is it possible? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think so. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Miami where I grew up, they used to have crocodile fights. What they would do, they would feed the crocodiles until they were completely sleepy, then they would fight with them . . . Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . so they couldn't move around so quick. Devotee (2): Sometimes they take their teeth out. *Prabhupāda: Then what remains? The teeth is dangerous. Yes. How condemned life. And we had to pass through all these. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). Nine lakhs of forms in the water. Crocodile is one of these. Just see how accurate is Vedic information. Never says: "Ten lakhs " or "Eight lakhs ." Nine lakhs . Now, if you don't believe, count. Go ahead. Count. How this knowledge is there? Nobody can go within the water to count how many forms are there, but how the Vedas gives the knowledge perfectly? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. This is Vedic knowledge. Where you cannot reach, and you refer to Vedas , you'll get the knowledge. That is Vedas , perfect knowledge. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi . Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given the example: stool is impure, rejectable. Everyone knows. Veda says: "No, cow dung is pure." And you examine it, you'll find it is pure. That is Vedic knowledge. When you get information from the Vedas , it is perfectly right. So it is easier to take knowledge from the Vedas . Then you'll become perfect in knowledge. There is no question of researching. That is not possible. What you'll research? How many animals are there, aquatics are there, in the water? It is beyond your experience. Is there any scientist who can go within the water and count how many aquatic forms are there? Nothing you can do. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣā viṁśati. What information we have got? Even you cannot speak perfectly well about this universe. We are not able even to speak perfectly what is there in the moon planet. They are going, trying to go, and coming back. And still, they are claiming perfection, as perfect as God. Just see how lunatic they are. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that the newly initiated brāhmaṇas have to come now. Maybe we should . . . Prabhupāda: So some meeting is not going to be held, down? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there's constantly kīrtanas and discourses. Prabhupāda: Lecture. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lectures and kīrtanas . Prabhupāda: Kīrtanas . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's soldier to fight with māyā . Devotees: Jaya! *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are our commander*-in-chief, Prabhupāda. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself says, ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo (Ohe Vaiṣṇava Ṭhākura). When He . . . in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta you have seen? In the first part you can find out this verse, ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo . Devotee: There's a song like that also. Prabhupāda: What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says it may be in a song also, one of the Vaiṣṇava songs. Prabhupāda: The first part. Here, this is first part of the . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Look in the index in the back. Prabhupāda: Index. You can read it. So you are reading books also. Not selling, but reading also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really they are soldiers, because many of them have been very severely beaten by police authorities and others during the distribution. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The men who are here now in this room, some of them have been put in jails . . . (aside) Watch out for that thing. Put in jails and beaten just for distributing these books. Prabhupāda: So there was no legal action? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in the courts. Tripurāri: Some places the police have a conspiracy against our devotees. Prabhupāda: What is our fault? Tripurāri: We have no fault except that we are successful. We are so successful, and they are envious. Prabhupāda: That they don't want. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The people want, but the authorities don't want. Prabhupāda: You have found out? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, I . . . the index is not there, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: There is no index? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No index. First chapter? Prabhupāda: No, how you'll find it? Give me. Unless you have an index list . . . the purport of the verse is that even Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu—He is God himself, Kṛṣṇa Himself—He felt, alone, unable to do this task. He felt. So this is the position. You are cooperating, therefore I am getting the credit. Otherwise, alone what could I do? Ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo. Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself wanted our cooperation. He is God, Kṛṣṇa. And therefore cooperation is very important thing. Nobody should think that, "I have got so great ability. I can do." No. It is simply by cooperation we can do very big thing. "United we stand; divided we fall." This is our . . . so be strong in pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Kṛṣṇa will help. He is the strongest. Still, we must be combined together. Saṅkīrtana. Saṅkīrtana means many men combined together chanting. That is saṅkīrtana . Otherwise kīrtana. Saṅkīrtana. Bahubhir militvā kīrtayeti saṅkīrtana. Bahu. Bahu means many; many combined together. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, combined together. All nations, all persons, they should combine together. There is hope in our Society, combination. There are Hindus; there are Muslims; there are Christians; *there are black, white. Combine them. That looks very beautiful, just like combination of many flowers. There is black flower also. It looks nice, very nice. Each and every flower take alone, it is not beautiful, but when they are combined together, it looks very beautiful. It is attractive. And that is wanted. Because from the spiritual platform we are all working. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Spiritual platform, every one of us, we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. So where is the competition between one servant with another? There is . . . even there is competition, the center is Kṛṣṇa—"Who can serve more?" Therefore that competition is very welcome, because there is no personal interest. Everyone is trying how to serve Kṛṣṇa more. That is wanted. The competition is there in his real form and perverted form. In the real form Kṛṣṇa is the center, and the perverted form, I am the center. I compete with you to satisfy my senses more. What is called? Heliocentric or . . .? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Egocentric. Prabhupāda: Egocentric, yes. This is egocentric. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should be Kṛṣṇa*-centric. Prabhupāda: Yes, then it is perfect. The competition must remain. The others, they say: "Why competition? Make it zero." That is imperfect. But competition to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is reality. *Devotee (3): I found the verse. It's in " Ohe Vaiṣṇava Ṭhākura ." Ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo, hari*-nāma-saṅkīrtane. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, not this verse. What is the meaning? Devotee (3): Meaning is, "I do not find the strength to carry on alone the saṅkīrtana of the holy name of Hari. Please bless me by giving me just one drop of faith with which one can attain the great treasure of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: So nobody is powerful alone. In Kṛṣṇa's service also, combine together. That is wanted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think there is no question of being alone anywhere, because the guru is always with one. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the ideal. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Guru is also depending, and combination means I depend on you, you depend on me, that's all. That is combination. That's all. So, prasādam ? Now we are fasting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are fasting. Prabhupāda: In the evening there will be prasādam . Arrangement is being made for? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are taking very nice care of us here, Prabhupāda. Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! Prabhupāda: Next year it will be very nice. Our these rooms will be complete. I think this year also, not very much inconvenience. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not at all. *Prabhupāda: In Bengali there is a proverb, "If you are good men, then you can accommodate yourself lying in a leaf of the tamarind." You know the tamarind leaf? That is the smallest leaf of the tree. Big tree, and the leaf is very small. Yodi hao sujan, tetul patay na*-jan. (If people have a good relationship then in a tamarind life, nine people can stay together.) And just contrary to that. These are American tape recorder or Japanese? Devotee: Japanese. Prabhupāda: All right. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! (offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Take this apple and cut into pieces. Devotees: Prabhupāda ki jaya! *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. All glories to the saṅkīrtana party, Rādhā*-Dāmodara. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Jaya . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, we signed only the two top checks. The rest we left blank so you can do whatever you want. You can fill in whatever you want on the inside. Prabhupāda: That is good. (end) Conversation in Bengali -- March 22, 1976, Mayapur (Conversation in Bengali) Edit in progress . . . (translated from Bengali) Jayapatāka: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Conversation -- March 24, 1976, Calcutta *(at Radha*-Govinda Mandir) *Prabhupāda: Ami . . . meye der ektu asubidha hoy. (I . . . girls are a little inconvenienced.) This Rādhā*-Govinda Deity is very old Deity of the Mullik family. I think not less than two hundred years ago this Deity was established by the mother of Kashinath Mullik. I think you might have heard, another Kashi . . . original Kashinath Mullik. I think his father's name was Gaura Mohan Mullik. Am I right? Indian man: Citra Dasi. *Prabhupāda: Citra Dasi. No. No, Kashinath Mullik's father? So gradually this whole quarters belonged to this Mullik family. Still in front of this temple there is Gangara building. That is also the property of Rādhā*-Govinda. And as I have shown in coming, our house was just behind the present Govinda Bhavan. And we had the opportunity of seeing this Rādhā-Govinda from very childhood. When I was three or four years old I used to visit this Rādhā-Govinda daily. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Rādhā*-Govinda! Jaya Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: And that is the inspiration of my devotional life. Then I asked my father that, "Give me Rādhā-Govinda Deity, I shall worship." So my father was also Vaiṣṇava. He gave me small Rādhā-Govinda Deity. I was worshiping in my house. Whatever I was eating, I was offering, and I was following the ceremonies of this Rādhā-Govinda with my small Deity. That Deity is still existing. I have given to my sister. So then I introduced Ratha-yātrā. So I . . . my Ratha-yātrā was being performed very gloriously. My father used to spend money. In those days ten rupees, twenty rupees was sufficient. I hired one kīrtana party, and a small friends, they . . . I think the brother of the present generation, and there was another De family here, so we performed this Ratha-yātrā ceremony. According to our children's imagination, it was very gorgeous. So I think our present Manmohan . . . his name is? Babur baba? Dada masai? (Father or babu? The grandfather?) Gopishvara Mullik. That Gopishvara Mullik was my father's friend. So he was criticizing my father that, "You are performing Ratha-yātrā ceremony and you are not inviting us." (laughter) So my father said, "That is children's play. What shall I invite you? You are very big man." So, "Oh, so you are avoiding. In the name of children you are avoiding us." On the whole, this Ratha-yātrā festival was very gorgeously . . . then imitating me, the other, my brother like, Kangalu, he also introduced Ratha-yātrā. And . . . Kangalu. Hya, (Yes,) So all of them introduced Ratha-yātrā, and the destination was this Ṭhākurbari, from there. So practically what I am doing now, the same thing, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. I am not doing anything else. You know very well. We are now performing Ratha-yātrā ceremony practically in all big cities of the world: in San Francisco, in . . . Hari-śauri: Philadelphia. Prabhupāda: Philadelphia, London . . . Hari-śauri: Melbourne. Prabhupāda: Melbourne, Australia . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Paris. *Prabhupāda: Paris. So the same thing, the same Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship temples and same Ratha-yātrā, in a bigger scale. But the same thing was begun as play from this quarter, this Ṭhākurbari. Indian man: Year 1970. Sattor sale, suru korlen ekhane. (In the year 1970, you have started here.) Prabhupāda: Na, na. (No, no.) I began my . . . I think from 1904 or '5, from my very childhood. Indian man: Oh, childhood. Prabhupāda: Yes. At that time perhaps you were not born. (laughter) What is your age now? What is the birth of date? *Indian man: Fifty*-five. *Prabhupāda: Fifty*-five. That means in 1920 you were born? Indian man: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So anyway, this Ṭhākurbari, Rādhā-Govindajī, is my life. That is the beginning of my this spiritual life. And after so many years, still Rādhā-Govindajī has dragged me. So it is His kindness. So the beginning was the same thing—worship of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. That is I am doing in a bigger scale and a wider scale all over the world. So it is nothing new. So in the one sense, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sanjāyate ( BG 6.41). So although I was not belonging to this family . . . or perhaps originally we belonged to this family, because they are also De, we are De, but practically I was born in this family, and śucīnāṁ śrīmatām. And my father was a very pure Vaiṣṇava. So these opportunities we got; *now it is developed in a wider scale. It is all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement, maybe from my previous life. But you are cooperating, you American and European, so we are spreading the mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, this mission, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa mission it is practically. Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya, rādhā*-kṛṣṇa nahe anya (Śrī Guru-paramparā, text 6). Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is combination of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. *Rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir asmād (CC Adi 1.5). Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, the same Absolute Truth. Rādhārāṇī is the pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa wants to enjoy, He expands His pleasure potency in the form of Rādhārāṇī. And when He wants to spread the loving affairs of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, He takes the form of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and very kindly He gives the love of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has offered Him obeisances, namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). To understand Kṛṣṇa, it takes long, long duration of life. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). And to understand the love of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, it is not so easy thing. But by the grace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu we are understanding kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te . So it is now spreading all over the world. So this is . . . about this movement it may be this Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā-Govinda Deity is the . . . what is called? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Inspiration? Prabhupāda: Inspiration. So you are all fortunate that you have come here. So let us offer our obeisances. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! (break) (in car) Hari-śauri: Those Deities are very nicely looked after, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: The Deities. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: They are very nicely cared for. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is my inspiration, this Deity. Abhirāma: Should we have some program with these Mulliks sometimes? Visit? Prabhupāda: No, no. Our house was here. I am coming almost daily, on every moment. I was playing here. They were all my playmates. The whole this, from that street to this street, that was our house, home. Here is the pharmacy, that Kailash Pharmacy. That was very old. Our limit was coming up to this road and up to that Chitpur Road. Abhirāma: Your father would not let you go any farther than this? *Prabhupāda: In those days who cared for the father? We were coming and . . . it was not so congested. There was a riot, Hindu*-Muslim riot. This quarter is Muslim quarter. Oh, in 1911 that was a dangerous day. Perhaps I would have been killed. Riot. Very big riot. This was my school here, this building. This was my school. And college was Scottish Churches. In this ground we used to play football. Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You used to take Jagannātha right through the streets? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How far would you carry Jagannātha? *Prabhupāda: From our house to this Ṭhākurbari, Rādhā*-Govinda's, coming and going with procession of children and khola, karatāla and everything. Prasādam distribution, everything was there. My father used to encourage. And in those days if my father would spend twenty-five rupees, it was a great festival. Why not? In those days, fifty, sixty years ago, the money value was at least twenty times. So if my father was spending at that time twenty rupees, now it is at least four hundred rupees. So for a children's play four hundred rupees is not a small amount. Abhirāma: At least fifty dollars in American. Prabhupāda: Yes. So my father used to pay. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You hired a saṅkīrtana party? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only two rupees. That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Our young children are very fortunate also. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Our young children. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Very fortunate. That a small child, he'll take little grain of prasādam . He will not touch the big halavā . As soon as I'll give him a little grain, he'll take. Very nice. (break) Abhirāma: (much traffic noise) . . . travel on a coach like this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes, in our childhood. Not so bad. At that time it was not so bad. In 1925 I purchased one Buick car. In our childhood days there was no electricity, and there was no motorcar. No. The tram car was drawn by horses in Calcutta. (break) . . . quarter where our temple is situated. This is the best . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- March 25, 1976, Delhi *Prabhupāda: They make modernized meaning of Bhagavad*-gītā . That is insanity. Do you agree or . . . *Reporter (1): What would you regard to be the essence of Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā means that there is God, and we are part and parcel of God. God is great, and we are very teeny, small, fragmental portion of God. In quality we and God are the same, just like a drop of ocean water is qualitatively the same as the big ocean. Reporter (1): Beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: Qualitatively is the same. The drop of ocean water is salty, and the whole ocean is also salty. The salt taste is there. But the drop is never equal to the ocean. This is the difference. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś . . . (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). This is the Vedic . . . that He is also living entity as we are. So we many, plural number. "We" means living entities. We are many, and He is one. But He is also living entity. Now where is the difference? The difference is that He maintains the plural number living entities. Reporter (1): He maintains the . . .? Prabhupāda: Plural, plural number. Plural. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Plural. Prabhupāda: Living entities. And the plural number living entities are maintained by Him. Reporter (2): In the past . . . I should start this way . . . this is the first press conference you are holding in Delhi, isn't it? Prabhupāda: You can come forward. Reporter (1): . . . if we can finish this answer, if you don't mind. Reporter (2): Okay. Reporter (1): You said the plural number entities are being maintained by Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like father, and he has got many children. So both of them are living entities, but the father maintains the children, and the children are maintained by God. One is maintaining, and others are being maintained. That means dependent. We are dependent on God, or Kṛṣṇa. Reporter (1): But, sir, aren't we impure and He is pure? Prabhupāda: No, both of them are. The father . . . Reporter (1): But then how do we . . . then why do we commit sins? God doesn't. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we are at the present moment in impure condition. That is material. Therefore the human form of life is a chance to be free from the impurity. Reporter (1): But, sir, if we are drop of the same ocean, why should we be impure at all? Prabhupāda: No, no. We are pure constitutionally. Reporter (1): Then from where does this impurity come? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is . . . just like your are healthy, but wherefrom the disease comes? You are not diseased now, but sometimes disease comes. Wherefrom it comes? So at the present moment we are in diseased condition. This has to be cured. Otherwise we are pure—as pure as God. Reporter (1): Then what is the way to purity? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Bhagavad*-gītā . *Reporter (1): You mean the mere recital of Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Prabhupāda: Not recite, to understand and to act. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prescription. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is the prescription. *Prabhupāda: The whole thing is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Reporter (1): Which particular teachings do you find so uplifting and ennobling for a man? *Prabhupāda: You have read Bhagavad*-gītā ? Reporter (1): Yes, I have . . . I mean, not so thoroughly, but I have in parts. Prabhupāda: So what is that question? Which part? Reporter (1): Which particular teachings you think can purify a man? Because you said the salvation lies in practical teachings of *Gītā* . Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to revive your consciousness that you are part and parcel of God. And the part and parcel of God means to serve God. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body, but it is meant for serving my body. I ask the finger, "Come here"—it is serving me. "Come here", it is scratching. "Pick up the food. Give it to me", he is giving it. This is business of the finger. If the finger cannot carry out my order, then it is diseased. And if he immediately carries out order, then it is healthy. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, we must be ready to give service immediately. Then it is healthy condition. And if we do not, then it is māyā . We are serving. You are serving. Everyone is serving, because our constitution is to serve. Big, big leaders, they are also serving. Anyone you can see. The sun, he is serving. Exactly in the time it is rising, by the order of God. Exactly in time it is setting. So everyone is serving. Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya ( CC Adi 5.142): "Only master is God, and everyone is His servant." But the diseased condition is that when we do not serve God, we serve something else— māyā —and that is diseased condition. Reporter (1): That is . . .? Prabhupāda: Diseased condition. Impure condition. At the present moment we have discovered so many services—national service, communal service, and this service, that service—but nobody is recommending service of God. This is the diseased condition. Therefore we are suffering. Reporter (1): So what do you really mean by arousing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? What does it entail? *Prabhupāda: That means we have to serve Kṛṣṇa. We are serving now non*-Kṛṣṇa. Nothing is non-Kṛṣṇa. Something māyā . Just like dreaming. Dreaming, it is also activity. That is false activity. Reporter (3): Excuse me, may I ask one question if I can, please. You said māyā or disease. Māyā is disease or māyā or many other ailments? By which . . . Prabhupāda: Māyā is a diseased condition. Reporter (3): Māyā is a diseased condition or many other ailments under who the human beings are affected. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (3): Are these bad conditions or ailments not part and parcel of God? Prabhupāda: Yes. But you are suffering. You should admit. Just like a prison department is part and parcel of the government. But who is in the prison, he is suffering. Indian devotee: That's a very good answer. That's a wonderful answer. Reporter (3): Your Divine Grace, would your message be exactly the same for, say, a starving man in India and a Westerner who's got everything that a person needs? Prabhupāda: We say that not only in India, everyone, you'll starve, because you are rebellious to God consciousness. You must starve. That is the punishment. Just like anyone who is a criminal, he must be punished. That is the law of nature. Reporter (2): So by that, I suppose one would presume that people in India have been most rebellious to God. Prabhupāda: Why India? Everywhere. Why you speak India? Reporter (2): Because . . . Prabhupāda: When you speak of God, don't take India, or America or Europe. Everywhere. Reporter (2): No. Because the number of starving men here is much larger. *Prabhupāda: You are starving on account of your economic condition being bad or . . . I cannot say anything. But they are also starving. You are poor by force, and they sometimes accept poverty voluntarily, just like the hippies. They have enough money. They are coming from very rich father and grandfather, but they lie down on the street, and the police comes and kick them, "Hey, get up! Get up!" Why? Why they have accepted this? So this kind of varieties we find everywhere—rich man, middle*-class man and poverty-stricken man. Don't think that it is in India. I am traveling all over the world. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, what do you suggest to your disciples to arouse what you call Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the purificatory process. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . God is so kind. In this age . . . it is meant for every age. Especially this age, when we are so much fallen and so much suffering, and neither we are able to act very piously, therefore this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , if you chant, you gradually become purified. Then you come to your own consciousness. Reporter (1): So how would you define sin? What is impurities, or to sin? Prabhupāda: You cannot understand impurities? *Reporter (1): I mean, give any clear*-cut definition. Prabhupāda: Just like when you are diseased and the doctor gives you some vaccine and injection to cure you, to make you purified. Is it not? *Reporter (1): No, but just like could there be any clear*-cut criterion, for example, to say that I have committed sin or I have not committed sin? What is sin? *Prabhupāda: Clear*-cut criterion is that we living entity, being part and parcel, we are as good as God. But when we are under the control of the material nature, that is our diseased condition. Same example: Just like you, as a good citizen, you are as good as Indira Gandhi. You are Indian; you have got all the rights. But if you become criminal, you put into the prison. So we are in the . . . conditioned state means no freedom. It is not clear? Reporter (1): No, sir, I just wanted you to tell me some yardstick from which one could . . . Prabhupāda: But because you are suffering, that is the sign of impurity. Reporter (1): Beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: Because you are suffering. Do you admit that you are suffering? Do you know this? Reporter (1): Suffering means that there is some impurity. Prabhupāda: No, are you not suffering? Reporter (1): Yes, everybody is. *Prabhupāda: That is diseased condition. Just like diseased con . . . when you have got fever—you are suffering—that is diseased condition. So long you are suffering, you must be aware of the fact that you are in diseased condition. Because you are part and parcel, there is no question of suffering. Sac*-cid-ānanda . . . Reporter (1): But suffering may not necessarily be because of sin. It might be because of something else, you know? Prabhupāda: "Might be something," that is your sinful activities. That, "something" is some sinful activity. Reporter (1): Now a poor man suffers of hunger. This is not sin if he doesn't get proper food or anything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. But how you can help? You cannot help. Just like a prisoner in the . . . suffering in the prison house, you cannot help him. Reporter (1): I may suffer because I have a cancer . . . Prabhupāda: No, first of all you try to understand. Reporter (1): But cancer is not a sin, you know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is sin. Disease means sin. Unless you commit sinful life, there is no question of suffering. Reporter (1): I thought . . . but sin has some relation with . . . Reporter (3): Sometimes the suffering is self brought and sometimes a suffering is brought without self, by nature. *Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no, that is wrong. Every suffering is brought by you—yourself. Just like if you are punished by the high*-court judge to be hanged, you don't make the high-court judge is the cause of your hanging. You made a situation—the high-court judge has given you the judgment that you must be hanged. Reporter (2): Would you tell us something about the Vedic city which is being constructed in Māyāpur? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He wants to know something about the Vedic city which is being constructed in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Yes, not Vedic city. Vedic planetarium. How you got this information? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He had come to our temple earlier. He's already published one article in yesterday's paper. Reporter (1): Which paper? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This morning I have got. Prabhupāda: You must try to understand that we are suffering on account of our sinful activities. Reporter (1): Sir, I am asking what is sinful activity. Prabhupāda: You do not know? Reporter (1): I don't know. Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish. Prabhupāda: If you go on the street and it is, there is, "Keep to the left," as soon as you go to the right, you suffer. Is it not? Immediately you go to the court. Is it not suffering? No, no, just try to understand. Reporter (1): No, sir, I just wanted to ask you . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, why wonder? You just try to understand this common sense, that as soon as you go to the street, if the indication is that you must keep your car on the left side, and as soon as you go to the right side, you become a criminal, immediately. You can say: "What is the wrong? The right side or wrong side, I am driving my car." But it is criminal, you know or not know. Ignorance of law is no excuse. So just similarly there is law of God. So as soon as you violate, you must suffer. You see? Reporter (1): What is that law court? *Prabhupāda: That means you are so ignorant. You are so ignorant. The law of God, law is . . . God is personally speaking, "This is the law, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66)." This is the law. God is speaking personally, and you do not know? And you are advertising very expert in reading Bhagavad-gītā , and you do not know the law? This is going on. Big, big scholars, big, big monkey, they are reading Bhagavad-gītā three hundred times daily, but do not know what is law. This is going on. In Bengali there is a saying: "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." You know the monkey, big monkey, Hanumānjī. He jumped over. So ask any other monkey, "Can you jump?" Melancholy. (laughter) Similarly, big, big scholars of Bhagavad-gītā and do not know what is the law of God. This is going on. Big, big commentary, big, big book, but the law he does not know. Reporter (2): Your Divine Grace, this is actually not very relevant to the press conference, but have you ever met people like the Sai Baba or Bala Yogeshwara or . . . Prabhupāda: Why shall I meet these nonsense? Why shall I meet? What is the business? Fools and rascals may meet them. Why shall I meet? What can I get from them? What is their special value? Tell me, why shall I meet? What is the business I have got to meet him? You are suggesting? Reporter (2): No, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, why shall I meet? Why you expect like that, I shall meet? Reporter (3): He just wanted to know if you have ever met them. They are also . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Why he is . . .? Why he is asking this? What business I have got to meet with them? What shall I get from them? Reporter (2): Just to discuss metaphysics. Prabhupāda: Yes. If I am taking lesson from Kṛṣṇa, why shall I take lesson from such bogus things? Reporter (3): No, they have also been recognized as . . . Prabhupāda: Who recognized? Who recognized? Reporter (3): . . . as exponent of Hindu thought and . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, who recognized? First of all, who recognized? Reporter (3): No, they too have a following in the West. Prabhupāda: That is the defect. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They vote. Just like in big democratic country like America they voted Nixon to become president, and when they found that, "This man is a bogus," they again dragged him down. So this is going on. We vote somebody to the topmost position, and we see that he's a rascal. So therefore we do not advise. We say: "Just take lesson from Kṛṣṇa, who is recognized by everyone." That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't say: "Go to a bogus man and take instruction." We don't say. *Indian devotee: May I interrupt? What Swāmīji has described in all the books—as it exists, no further contribution, no amendment, no interpretation. He has described all what has been written in Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad*-gītā , in its truest form. So no imitation, no representation, no interpretation. Swāmījī has described exactly as it happened. Prabhupāda: And that is being appreciated all over the world. Indian devotee: All over the world that is being appreciated. *Reporter (1): Swāmījī, could you please throw light on your four*-point regulation which you suggest to your disciples? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is pious life. No illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication and no gambling. Reporter (1): No . . .? *Prabhupāda: Gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. So if we want to know God, we must be free from sinful life. This is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If you want to be God conscious, then you must be free from all sinful activities. God is pure. If you want to approach God, then you must be pure. If you remain impure, you cannot understand. Reporter (2): Swāmījī, do you think that there are some people in this country in thousands or maybe tens of thousands who are getting spiritual solace from, say, people like Sai Baba or any of these other people who have interpreted the *Vedas* or who have followers all over the country? Do you think these followers are getting some amount of spiritual solace? Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, do you know what Sai Baba is preaching? Hmm? Do you know? Reporter (2): No. Prabhupāda: Then how you are asking on behalf of Sai Baba? Reporter (2): No, just like that. Just like . . . I am just going . . . I mean, I am very far removed from these . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, why you are interested? Twice, thrice you have said Sai Baba. *Reporter (2): No, anybody. Because he is among the better*-known people. I, I am, I have nothing to do with. *Prabhupāda: So, but better*-known . . . Reporter (2): It could be someone like, say, the Bala Yogeshwara, who also got some kind of following there. *Prabhupāda: That is . . . that has spoiled our India's Vedic culture. Everyone has invented some ways, and they have misled the general people, people, followers. That is the misfortune of modern India. Yes. The standard instruction is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . They do not care to know it. They want to know about the greatness of Bala Yogi, Sai Baba, this bābā , that bābā . That is their misfortune. They give up the real instruction, Bhagavad-gītā , which is accepted by the great ācāryas —Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu—and all over the world, they are not interested to know Bhagavad-gītā , they are interested to know about Sai Baba. Just see the misfortune. Reporter (4): But what would you attribute this to? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What would you attribute this to? What is the cause of this? Prabhupāda: Cause of this? One simple cause is they have become unfortunate. They give up the real thing, and they accept the imitation. So that is their misfortune. If there are two shops, everyone knows, "Here is real gold, and here is imitation gold." And if you go to purchase imitation gold, that is his misfortune. Reporter (4): What is it in your movement which has appealed to the Western world? I believe you have a sizable following in . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, because we are supplying real gold. We are giving real gold. We are not supplying imitation gold. That is the credit. If you supply imitation thing, it may go for some time, but it will not endure. So many svāmīs and yogīs go there, but just these . . . ask these American boys. They don't care for them. Reporter (4): No, but even Mahesh Yogi has a considerable following in America and a lot of Western countries. Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Amongst housewives. Hṛdayānanda: No. Now it is going down, and the followers, they have . . . they will not follow any regulative principles. They will not surrender. Simply . . . they have no actual disciples who are following principles. Indian devotee: Are we going to compare because of the larger following? Do you compare the relative and the unrelative? This is the . . . Reporter (4): I didn't meant to compare Swāmījī's teachings with that of Mahesh Yogi's, but I . . . Prabhupāda: No, how many Mahesh Yogi has brought, disciples like this? Practical, come, come, practical point. Have you seen in India Mahesh Yogi's disciples like . . .? Reporter (4): Well, whenever he comes to Delhi he brings two, three jumbo jets full of disciples. Prabhupāda: This is my answer. Thousands of them are working here on my behalf. Just see their character and behavior. Reporter (3): Swāmījī, may I say something? A magician can create many charismas. But God also create charismas. Who will you compare? The magician charismas or the God's charisma? This is the difference. A magician can also sometimes impress upon people that he has godly powers, but are they the real godly powers as against real godly powers? This is the difference. I have been at least thirty times to America, talked to lot of people. They say if you want to go really for attainment of your soul, you go to ISKCON. Prabhupāda: Even Mahesh Yogi says. Yes. Reporter (3): And if you want to attain your bodily strength . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, actually. One of his secretaries came to us. One of his secretaries, he asked that, "I want real knowledge of God." He said: "Then you go to ISKCON." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's true. Reporter (3): And if you want blissful, pleasureful things, go to either Mahesh Yogi or go to Bala Hathayogi. This is what has been . . . this is what has been impressed upon by knowledgeable people in America. And at least I can say with authority that I have talked with lot of people in America. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say that you can chant some mantra and go on with your sinful life. But the practical result is that people's lives remain the same. They may simply divert themselves from their suffering temporarily. But in reality their condition of life is the same. They're still in a miserable condition of life, whereas Prabhupāda is actually lifting us out of the well of misery to the atmosphere of blissfulness. Prabhupāda: That Mahesh Yogi advertises in the paper, "TM, you don't require any religion, don't require to follow any principles," and so on, so on. But I have got so many strictures—still, they do not go to him—they come to me. He has no stricture, but I have got so many stricture. And it is the report of the Draft Department that, "Why the young men come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? What is the facility?" So they studied. So they reported, "There is no facility, simply rigidity. Still they go there." (laughter) Reporter (4): Do you have any plans of propagating your movement in India? Because you have been for too long working in the West, and I believe India is not getting the benefit of your teaching and your guidance. *Prabhupāda: India is so misguided that it will take some time to come. Because whatever I . . . even if you speak to India, what I shall speak? I'll speak Bhagavad*-gītā . The Bhagavad-gītā was already there, still already there. But India's misfortune is they are so neglectful, they don't take care of Bhagavad-gītā . They'll bring, "Why not Sai Baba? Why not this bābā ? Why not that bābā ?" That is the difficulty. Reporter (4): No, I wanted to ask . . . Prabhupāda: They have become overintelligent. Not simple intelligent but overintelligent. That is . . . they are not overintelligent. That is the, I mean, facility for them. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. That is in the śāstra , in the *Vedas* , in everywhere. But you won't believe it. You'll say: "Why Kṛṣṇa Supreme God? Another . . . here is God. Here is God." Hundreds and thousands of Gods you'll bring. That is the difficulty. Reporter (4): No, do you plan to propagate your message in India? *Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly I plan, but the difficulty is that who is going to accept? The philosophy is already there. Bhagavad*-gītā is already, but who is hearing to take it? Even if I speak, I shall speak, "Read Bhagavad-gītā ," but who will take it? That is the difficulty. They will bring another competition. Indian devotee: What probably he's asking is do we have any positive plans . . . Reporter (4): For spreading the movement in India. Prabhupāda: We have got. We have already planned. Indian devotee: That has been seen in Māyāpur. That has been . . . in Bombay there's a very big temple, we are building, with a center. In . . . (indistinct) . . . Vṛndāvana . . . Prabhupāda: My point is that what I am speaking, it is not unknown to India, but they are so misfortunate that they don't take it. That is the difficulty. So, so unfortunate they have become that they don't take it. What shall I speak in India? The same thing. Reporter (2): So that is all the more reason why your work is needed. *Prabhupāda: No, we are doing. As far as possible, we have got center. The people are so overintelligent, don't take it. "Ah, what Hare Kṛṣṇa? We have heard it. Ah, we have seen Bhagavad*-gītā ." That is . . . if you become neglectful, that is the greatest offense. So India is offender. It is India's philosophy, what I am preaching others. India doesn't require to be known to be aware. It is . . . they already know it, but they won't take it. They have become so unfortunate. That is the difficulty. If you don't take it, then how you'll become rich? Suppose if I give you, "Take this one thousand dollars." But if you don't take it, then what benefit will be there? India's position is like that. Reporter (5): Would you be opening certain schools in India on gurukula pattern? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are trying, but the difficulty, India, is that they are very, very neglectful. Reporter (5): Is the government discouraging in certain . . . Prabhupāda: There is no question of government or . . . the government is people's men. So if you are . . . we are ourselves fools and rascals, the government will also be a set of fools and rascals. And if you are intelligent, the government will be intelligent. Because now it is democracy. You select some men. So don't blame government. You are government. If you are fools, the government are fools. If you are intelligent, the government is intelligent. It is up to you to change; then everything will be all right. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, excuse me, is there any special significance of keeping this bead hidden from the public? *Prabhupāda: Yes, just to follow Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā says, man-manā bhava mad bhaktaḥ : "Always think of Me." So we are thinking, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." Reporter (1): No, I mean, you are keeping it wrapped in a piece of cloth. Prabhupāda: That bead. Reporter (1): Why? Prabhupāda: The bead is pure, so just to keep it aloof from the dust. You see? Just like we keep this drinking water covered. Why? This is common sense. Reporter (1): Just to keep it pure. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pure it is, but still, it is our duty not to treat ordinarily. Reporter (1): Are your disciples supposed to chant the mantra all the time? Prabhupāda: Yes. All my disciple is chanting. Reporter (1): Are they supposed to chant the mantra throughout the day? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter (1): All the time? Prabhupāda: Just like I am talking with you, and as soon as talking stops, I am . . . my hand is going, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā . Reporter (1): Is it possible to talk and also to chant the mantra at the same time? Prabhupāda: Yes. That requires practice. That requires practice. Just like woman is cooking and (s)he is also talking. It does not mean the cooking is going bad. It is practice. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, does this chanting of mantra brings purity or following of your four instructions or regulations which you have told, or both? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. It purifies the heart, yes, the core of the heart. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). This is the effect of chanting. Because everything we are doing on account of dirty heart, so everything is dirty. So if you purify your heart, then everything becomes clear. Reporter (1): How long does it take to purify ourself? Prabhupāda: It takes . . . just like if the dirty things are very fixed up, it takes little more time. Otherwise it takes little time. Reporter (2): Swāmījī, I believe you'll be having certain industries for export also in Māyāpur. May I know if they will be manned by disciples, and if so, do you think that they would be in a much better position to look after these big gośālās and other things than, say, other people would be? *Prabhupāda: If you follow Bhagavad*-gītā , then everything will be followed very nicely. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). And go-rakṣya , this is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā . So if you follow Bhagavad-gītā , then naturally go-rakṣya will be there. And if you read Bhagavad-gītā for some political reason, then slaughterhouse go on. That's all. Instead of go-rakṣya , go-killing. This is going on. Every politician is reading Bhagavad-gītā , but go-rakṣya . . . instead of go-rakṣya , go-hatya . This is going on—no go-rakṣya , but go-hatya . This is going on. Who cares for Kṛṣṇa? This is the misfortune of India. Kṛṣṇa spoke in India, in Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa appeared in India, but Indian people are neglecting. Therefore I say it is a misfortune. It is your own thing. You are neglecting it. Reporter (2): So you want to encourage that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I want that . . . Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken in India. Every Indian should take Bhagavad-gītā very seriously. Then India's fortune will change. But they have rejected Bhagavad-gītā , and they are making their own imagination as the goal of life. So how they will be happy? If you have your father's property, you squander it and then you beg from others, "Give me some money," then how much unfortunate you are, just see. Your father's property, you squandered it. Then you become a beggar and beg from others, "Give me some money, sir." So how much unfortunate you are, just imagine. Reporter (3): When you visited the Soviet Union, Swāmījī, did you find the atmosphere worse than it is in Western countries, say? Are the people . . . Prabhupāda: Everywhere the people are very good, but the leaders are bad. Reporter (3): Did you meet any of them? No. Prabhupāda: Yes. I talked with one of the best leaders, Professor Kotovsky. He is the professor of Indology. I talked with him. I have studied. The people are generally very good. Reporter (3): But did you hold any meetings or anything? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (3): Were they receptive to what you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. I was invited by Professor Kotovsky to talk with him. On my way to Europe I stayed there. So I have studied the people. They are very good, as our Indian people, innocent masses, they are also like that. But they are being sophisticated by their new philosophy, Communism, artificial thing. But they are not happy. They are being forced to accept a philosophy. People are . . . I have seen from their face. They look unhappy. Everything dependent on government. You have to accept. You cannot select your food even. Whatever nonsense things the government will supply, you have to accept, even you don't like it. And for us it was a great difficulty. We could not get rice, could not get flour, neither fruit. Only milk is available, and flesh, as much as you like. So on the whole it was artificial, and people are not happy. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, why do you prohibit this tea or coffee also for your disciples? Prabhupāda: Because it is sinful. Reporter (1): It is sinful? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why should you eat meat? Reporter (6): What about onions and . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, onions is also very agitating. Reporter (1): Sir, why are they sinful? Why are they sinful? Prabhupāda: What sinful? Reporter (1): Why is it sinful to take tea or coffee? Prabhupāda: Because you get intoxication. If you are habituated to take tea, as soon as in your time you don't take, you'll become mad. Reporter (1): You mean this dependency is bad . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, why should we . . .? Reporter (1): . . . or this tea itself is bad? Prabhupāda: If your mind is agitated for something, then you become dependent on that thing. That is the position. Those who are taking tea, they have become so much dependent on tea. Reporter (1): But if I start talking milk I will be equally dependent on milk, sir. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, milk will not. Milk, you take little milk once; that will satisfy. Reporter (4): No, what he says that if he starts taking milk regularly, he'll become dependent. He'll become . . . Prabhupāda: So that much dependent, you must eat something. But you must eat something which is favorable for you. Eatable—everything is eatable. The stool is also eatable. That does not mean you, human being, you go to eat stool. That is meant for the pigs, hogs. You are not hogs and pigs. But if you become . . . if you try to become pigs and hog, then you can become. No discrimination of food means pigs and hogs. And God will give chance to become a hog next life. Reporter (1): Sir, most of your disciples have their heads shaven. Prabhupāda: But if you admit this, that after this life you have to accept another body. Do you accept this? Eh? Reporter (1): I do, sir. *Prabhupāda: Then that body offered to you, is it in your hand? Suppose the next life you are offered a pig's body. Can you say: "No, no, I don't want it"? That is the statement of Bhagavad*-gītā : tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Reporter (1): But how to give up, sir? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (1): How to give up. Prabhupāda: What is give up? Reporter (1): How to give up this tea and coffee to which we are so much habituated? Prabhupāda: That they have given up. Devotee (2): Join the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Just see the example, how they are . . . ask them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you lose your hankering for everything else. Reporter (1): Really? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The higher taste. Prabhupāda: That is the taste of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra ca (SB 11.2.42). As soon as you advance in devotion, you become detestful to the all material enjoyment. Reporter (2): Swāmījī, may I inquire from which class of society people generally come to you in the States? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From which class of society in the United Sates do most of your disciples come? Prabhupāda: You can ask them. I do not know. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All classes. Many educated people as well as people from all different classes, all racial backgrounds. Prabhupāda: No, no. In America, who is uneducated? Hṛdayānanda: Yes, all coming from very nice families, the majority, education. Many, many of them coming from very wealthy families. Prabhupāda: Now, if you should take good family means wealthy family, then America, there is no poor family. There is no question of poverty. So how do you distinguish that he's coming from good family, he's coming from bad family? Poverty is unknown to them. Nobody is uneducated. Then how you distinguish who is bad and who is good? Everyone is good—unless he voluntarily becomes bad, hippie. Otherwise everyone is coming from very good family, rich family, educated family. Reporter (2): Do you have a large number of American Negroes in your movement, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: Not large number, but there are. Reporter (2): Is there any reason why that is so? Prabhupāda: That is . . . there is reason. They are not very much cultured. Reporter (5): Do you have women followers also in this movement? Prabhupāda: Yes. America, men and women have got equal rights. Reporter (1): Sir, whom do you find more responsive to your movement, women or men? Prabhupāda: Everyone. Everyone. They are very fortunate. And I am very much indebted to them because they have helped me. Yes. Reporter (4): Helped in what sense? Prabhupāda: Helped in cooperation. Without their cooperation . . . now, these books I am writing surely, but they are pushing on, even facing great danger. They are helping me in my translating work, in typing, in composing, in printing. Have you got that film, how they are doing? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Hari-śauri: Have you got that film? That book film? Yadubara: I don't have the projector here, Prabhupāda. That suitcase is not here. Prabhupāda: So if we invite them to see it, that how they are helping efficiently with latest machine . . . therefore it has been possible. Otherwise, while in India with great hardship I could publish three books only. Reporter (1): They are very beautifully printed. Reporter (4): Where did the money come from to print such lavish editions of your books? Prabhupāda: The money comes . . . we are selling books daily. Reporter (4): No, but initially you do require a . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (4): Initially it requires some money to print such a lavish book. Prabhupāda: Initially I took some books from here. They are not so nicely printed, but still, I sold them. Then gradually increased. They paid the money, and then . . . they made contributions. One of my student, he first, Jayānanda, he . . . no, first paid me . . . he, he has first paid me five thousand dollars. Then Brahmānanda paid me five thousand dollars. In this way gradually money came. Reporter (1): Swāmījī, you write originally in English, or these books are being translated from some other language into English for you? Prabhupāda: No, translated, but I give my purport. That is . . . they like very much. Present the purport in such a way they can understand it. The original verse is there, but they are explained by me. Reporter (1): Give some critical comments and explanations. Prabhupāda: Yes. That they like. Reporter (2): Does that mean, Swāmījī, that yours is a cultural and educational movement rather than a personal cult. Hṛdayānanda: A cultural and educational movement rather than a personal cult. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is cultural movement, educational movement. It is not so*-called religious movement. Religious movement is sentiment. Generally, religion is taken as a kind of faith but it is not a kind of faith. In . . . I think, in South America that Indian man was asking that, "It is the Hindu faith?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, in South Africa. He was asking, "Is this Hindu faith?" "This cult or that cult?" *Prabhupāda: So just see. He was Hindu gentleman, belonging to the Ārya*-samāj. So three times he said: "Is it Hindu faith?" And what do you mean by Hindu faith? When Kṛṣṇa said, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), is it meant for the Hindus that a child becomes . . . a baby becomes a child, a child becomes a boy, a boy becomes a young man, a young man becomes a old man, and the old man dies, changes this body? Is it meant for the Hindus? The Muhammadans do not become old men or young men? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Christians don't become old men? *Prabhupāda: But such fools there are that Bhagavad*-gītā is speaking, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13)—"It is meant for the Hindus." Just see. Such fools there are. And Kṛṣṇa said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "If you have got enough food grains, then all the living entities are satisfied." Is it meant for the Hindus? So this is going on, "This is Hindu scripture." What do you mean by Hindu scripture? Huh? So they are interpreting in their own way. So Kṛṣṇa is not for the Hindus or the Mussulmans or Christians. He is God. He is everyone. He is for everyone. And it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , sarva-yonīṣu kaunteya mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ (BG 14.4): "In all species of life, as many forms of life are there, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ , I am the seed-giving father of all of them." So where is the question of Hindus? This is going on. Reporter (5): Does it ever happen, Swāmījī, that some disciples of yours may disagree with you on spiritual matters? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. *Prabhupāda: Unless he is a fool. (laughter) Unless he's damn fool, they do not. (laughter) If he's sane and sober, open*-hearted, then he will agree. Not only Hindus. We have got so many Muhammadans also. So unless one is open-minded, sane, intelligent, they cannot understand. Therefore I say the Indians are becoming insane. By the influence of so many rascals they are becoming insane. So that has to be rectified. But insanity is prevailing all over the world, but not so much insanity as in India, that they are rejecting their own things. This is the greatest insanity. Why they are rejecting Bhagavad-gītā ? What is the reason? Tell me, you. Reporter (2): Because of Hindus suffer from basic economic instability. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: Economic instability. *Prabhupāda: Economic? Then why don't you accept the economic program given by Bhagavad*-gītā ? Why don't you accept? Reporter (2): If you would elaborate on that, I would be very much interested. *Prabhupāda: Well, that is . . . it is . . . it is known to everyone. Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Anna. Anna means food grains, eatables. You must produce sufficient food grains. Why you are producing tire tube instead of food grains? And just entering your Delhi from Vṛndāvana, a big Goodyear factory, very big factory. You are producing tire tube, then iron, Goodyear and this and that. Where is food grain? And both sides, the field is vacant. Nobody is going to grow food grain. Then why you'll not starve? It is your fault. You are producing tire tube and iron instrument. You are neglecting agriculture. Then why you shall not suffer for want of food grain? And you are pleading, "Indians are starving." Why shall not starve if they do not follow Bhagavad*-gītā ? They are thinking, "By increasing industry in America . . ." They have got industry, at the same time food grains also. But you are taking to industry without taking care of growing food grains. *Reporter (6): Swāmījī, I would like to know that I feel that your Society, the Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness Society, has a very, very stable economy, and that it is self*-sufficient in itself. Is that so? Hṛdayānanda: Speak a little louder. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is the Hare Kṛṣṇa Society self*-sufficient? Does it have a . . . he understands that our Society has a very stable economy. Is it self-sufficient, our own Hare Kṛṣṇa Society? *Prabhupāda: So don't you think that we are self*-sufficient? We are feeding at least ten thousand devotees daily, but we have no fixed income. Reporter (6): They don't have any fixed income. Prabhupāda: No. None of us have any fixed income, but we are traveling all over the world—New York, London, Calcutta. It is just like going from this quarter to that quarter. Our men are moving like that. Immediately coming, one dozen men from Germany, one dozen from London, and immediately going. We are paying so much money to the airplanes, and we have got so many centers. So how it is going on? Kṛṣṇa's grace. We depend on Kṛṣṇa. Our income, daily collection, is not less than one lakh of rupees, and we are spending everything. Reporter (6): One lakh daily? Prabhupāda: That is minimum. Sometimes we collect five lakhs daily. Reporter (4): What is the way you go about collecting money? *Prabhupāda: That book*-selling. Reporter (6): Only . . . books are the only source of your . . . Prabhupāda: That's it. This question was raised in the Parliament that, "Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they are fabulously rich. Where they get their money?" And the Parliament answer was "They get their money by selling literature." Reporter (6): That means the devotees, Swāmījī, do not contribute to the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Not the devotees purchase. They publish. Those who are intelligent public, they purchase. Reporter (6): They purchase. Right. But do the devotees contribute in any way? *Prabhupāda: Yes. They are contributing their life. We don't get any such life*-sacrificing Indians. These educated boys, rich men's son, they have sacrificed everything for me. And where is Indian? Reporter (6): Swāmījī, do you have certain farms also in America, gośālā ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only one, many. Reporter (6): What else do you have over there besides gurukula schools and things? Prabhupāda: We produce our own milk. In New Vrindavan we are producing . . . you are Nava Bharata Times ? You are, any of you, Nava Bharata Times ? Is there any representative, Nava . . . ? No. Your representative went to New Vrindavan, and he published in the November 1974, I think. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, '74. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they published one big article, Nava Bharata Time , and the heading was, Adhyatmikta ka jamuna aur doodh*-dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (The Yamuna of spirituality and the river of milk and curd is flowing.) (laughter) This was the heading. Actually they gave the photograph of our Deity and activities, everything. You can find out November issue of Nava Bharata in 1974. Reporter (2): But you've virtually given up India as a dead loss, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (2): You've given up India as a dead loss, isn't it, in the sense . . . Prabhupāda: Dead loss? Dead loss . . . but the leaders are dead loss. Misleaders. They have given up their own culture, and they are trying to imitate others. Reporter (6): Swāmījī, when there was discussion in Parliament about the fabulous money that the movement has, Society has, then who provided the answers? Prabhupāda: The Home Member. Reporter (6): The Minister. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We have a copy of this in Bombay, the question number and . . . it was about two, three years ago. Reporter (6): They must have done intensive research and things like that. Prabhupāda: The other member, they raised the question. They brought the charges that the Americans are CIA. What is that? CIA, or not? What is? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. CIA. *Prabhupāda: The CIA have become Vaiṣṇava and given up meat*-eating and dancing with me, and they have no other means. (laughter) Just see how foolish question it is. The CIA men have come to me for inquiry. This question, rascal questions, are put. Such unfortunate insanity is prevailing in India. (laughter) The American CIA, they have come to me. Just see. Reporter (6): Swāmījī, would you print that it is legitimate for the government to say that certain undesirable . . . Prabhupāda: Don't bring in government now. It is emergency. (laughter) Put ordinary question. Don't bring in government. Reporter (6): No, but have you been troubled by any undesirable elements? *Prabhupāda: No, no. We are clean. Why shall we be . . .? But if you want to put us in trouble, you can do it. We are preaching . . . our signboard is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why do you misunderstand? And we are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. You have got our book. Still if you misunderstand, that is our misfortune. What can I do? Reporter (4): Thank you very much indeed, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to have a look at some of our books? Hari-śauri: We have some refreshments also if you want. (end) Conversation -- April 4, 1976, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: All of them are South African? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, actually, he's from South Africa and he's from South Africa. These two devotees are going down for the first time, and Jagat*-guru was preaching there once before. Prabhupāda: So they will get visa? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't require visa except for Jagat*-guru. He's British, he's Canadian. He's South African boy. He's South African. Prabhupāda: Oh, they don't require visa. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only Jagat*-guru dāsa, American. Prabhupāda: Oh. So he'll get visa? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: So all five, you are going? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, we have studied this South Africa. They like our movement. And they are purchasing books. That is very good sign. Is it not? They are purchasing? Who are purchasing books? Educated circle? Devotee (1): Colleges. Prabhupāda: College. That is . . . college, universities, that is educated. So I was surprised when, after my meeting, they purchased books, because these South African white men, they do not like very much Indians. Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's a fact. Prabhupāda: But still, they like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is very good sign. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even the Indians are attracted to our Indian culture. Prabhupāda: They lost their culture. *Jagat*-guru: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we were thinking that this is 1976, and in July there is Ratha-yātrā. So by next year, '77, we hope to be able to have Ratha-yātrā in Durban. There may be a quarter of a million, half a million Indian people. One cart and three deities on one cart. Prabhupāda: And whether government will allow? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think so. They already have permission. *Jagat*-guru: They can give permission, will do probably. And also we want to establish also, apart from the temple, one bus program which will reach all the towns and villages there in South Africa. Prabhupāda: Very good. *Jagat*-guru: And also we will go to Rhodesia and possibly Malawi and maybe Mozambique, which are countries in our area. And also I spoke to the boys from Mauritius, and we would have some . . . Prabhupāda: Mauritius, we have got now devotee. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have kept his address? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Two devotees. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One is that gentleman, Mr. Narayan. He's an engineer with the city electrical department. And the other is a full*-time devotee. I have his address, Mr. Narayan's address. Prabhupāda: So they are still here? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's anxious to go back. He's going to London until August; then he's going back to Mauritius with his family. *Jagat*-guru: We will invite him to come to our Durban festival. And also I've suggested that they also arrange something big, festival, because there are 600,000 Indians there, and that some of our men then go to the island and give them association. Prabhupāda: So they'll give visa? Me? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For you? Oh, yes. I think we have to make a chest x*-ray again and take several shots for you, (laughter) no problem. Prabhupāda: So when you are going back? Tomorrow? *Jagat*-guru: Yes. Prabhupāda: When? Early in the morning? *Devotee: Yes. We're making the arrangements tomorrow to go. We're getting tickets and some books. Then Jagat*-guru will follow a few days later. Prabhupāda: Make vigorous propaganda all over the world. From South Africa, Australia there is direct service. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Direct service. Prabhupāda: Perth. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Perth. Yes. Prabhupāda: From Perth to . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sydney. Prabhupāda: No, South Africa . . .? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How many hours? It's about nine hours. Prabhupāda: Not much. Nearer than India. From India to Australia takes so many hours. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Five hours it was, from Bombay to Mauritius. Hari-śauri: Takes over fourteen hours. Prabhupāda: Five hours, again nine hours. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And then it was about three hours to South Africa from Mauritius. Prabhupāda: No, from Mauritius they can go directly to Australia. No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Direct to? Prabhupāda: Australia. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. If the flight is broken up like that, it's a little easier—from South Africa to Mauritius to Perth, or even to Bombay. It's about the same distance from Bombay to Mauritius as to Australia from Mauritius. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda is thinking about going from India to South Africa to Australia to make the flight easier. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think it makes the flight easier, because you're going like a triangle, this way and then this way. Let us arrange some nice program first, so that when you come again we'll have something nice to offer you. Prabhupāda: I think in Mauritius there is good field. They adopted culture. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The problem in Mauritius has been that either they don't know how to collect, or they say it's a very poor country and they're not able to get funds to start any kind of a dynamic program. Prabhupāda: They cannot chant even? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Chanting they do. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. We don't want money. So give them directly. *Jagat*-guru: Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: South African mission, very good. Devotee: At this present moment, Prabhupāda, we have a really unique situation, the best of all. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: A unique situation in South Africa, because there are many Europeans that are being drafted into the army, but they will not allow the Indians to be drafted. They don't want them to go into the military forces because they're afraid they're too intelligent. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of our brahmacārīs , they've been drafted into the army. We've lost several devotees like that, because it's very hard for them to maintain their Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the army. Prabhupāda: Conscription. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, conscription. But the Indians are not drafted. There's no army for them. So we're hoping that in Durban, where you first preached at the City Hall, the young people there, if we can get them sufficiently enthused, that they'll also join, and then we'll be able to have a very big movement amongst Indian community as well. We won't lose any devotees like that from the draft. Prabhupāda: I think our students who are going to be ministers, they are excused from draft. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, even in South Africa the ministers . . . no excuse. It's a very strict situation. If you don't go into the army, you go to jail. Even if you're a minister, they don't care. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is no religious grounds for objecting. But only the Europeans are in the army, no one else. They're afraid that if the Indians had guns, they might use them against the Europeans. (laughing) Devotee: So we're going to try and make more devotees this year, more Indian devotees especially. We've never really tried before. *Jagat*-guru: Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you have seen on our altar, Gaura-Nitāi? We have large Gaura-Nitāi and two small, three actually, three small sets of Gaura-Nitāi Deities. The ones on the far left, just under Lord Nityānanda's feet, They are going also to South Africa. They came originally from East Africa. I mentioned it when I first came to Māyāpur. So we will be taking Them. We have a very nice siṁhāsana built for Them, finished tomorrow, and we'll be displaying Them at all our programs, preaching programs. Prabhupāda: Do the needful. (pause) Prabhupāda: That's all. Devotees: (offer obeisances) Jaya . Prabhupāda: Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're very enthusiastic to preach. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is life. One who is enthusiastic to preach, he is living. Others are dead. (looking at flower) Just see how beautiful. Who is the rascal scientist can manufacture that by combination of chemicals? Hari-śauri: They can imitate the fragrance. (laughs) They can imitate, like monkeys. Prabhupāda: If you see only to the flowers, you become invigorated. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you see only . . .? Prabhupāda: Invigorated; get a refreshment. Hari-śauri: If you just see a flower. Yes, just to walk through a nice garden, it's very pacifying. *Prabhupāda: How many different colors and set*-up, craftsmanship. There is no brain, eh? Hari-śauri: Chance. Prabhupāda: It is not chance. In this particular tree, this flower will grow. Color will not change. (pause) Prabhupāda: So somebody is preparing? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Who? (end) Conversation -- April 5, 1976, Vrndavana Śyāmasundara: . . . the money is spent and everything is going nicely. Disorganized. Prabhupāda: Yes, management, management means everything is in order. Śyāmasundara: If there is no manager . . . Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the use of assembling together? Śyāmasundara: There should be some sannyāsī to step forward. Pañcadraviḍa: Sometimes, though, it is hard to maintain this routine. You yourself told the devotees not to go out and purchase excessive amounts of sweets, but that didn't check them. They are still in the sweet shops continually. This morning, I woke a . . . I went to wake a devotee up. I woke him up at a quarter to four. I said: "Prabhu, you want to get up now? It's about four o'clock, time to wake." So he didn't wake, but I went ahead and bathed, because I want to do that. And then I come back, and it was almost time for ārati . So I said, "If you're not going to bathe, at least get out of bed and come to ārati ." But he wouldn't do even that much. So what can you do under these conditions? When you tell somebody, you can't physically . . . Śyāmasundara: Well, the whole idea is if you create a spiritual atmosphere that is so enlivening that everyone will want to participate in it. That is the solution. You can't individually treat each person. You have to get the whole thing generated by . . . by pouring water on the root. Prabhupāda: If they sit down for chanting, they should automatically . . . they come. If one is late, then you can say: "Well, why did you not come?" But if there is no chanting, no sitting, simply "Wake up, wake up, wake up!" "All right, I am waking up," that is show. But one may wake up or not, you begin your work immediately. Devotee (2): With regard to the ārati . . . Prabhupāda: How? Devotee (2): We go to the, up into the temple for the ārati , so he stays in bed and sleeps, and we go to the ārati . Prabhupāda: No, that if he stays on the bed, then he should be asked to leave. Yes. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Not that fighting. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes? Devotee (3): I just want to say one thing, but this . . . and then I will leave, because this is a meeting of the management bureau. But I saw the boy after he was beaten, and as far as I was . . . Prabhupāda: That I have seen later . . . Devotee (3): That was very cruel, erm . . . it looked very cruel to me. It looked like he was beaten with boards. Criminal. So, erm, I don't think . . . if it happened to me, I would sue, if that happened to me. The boy's eye could be put out. That is not good, under any circumstances. Prabhupāda: That we are discussing. That already . . . (indistinct) *Śyāmasundara: The whole thing is that we are sure about a crisis in India in terms of our presence here. Our prestige has hit an all*-time low simply because of our conduct, that's all. Not because of our teaching or our, our . . . because we're white or anything like that. It is just because of our conduct—it is so bad, abominable. We don't . . . (indistinct) . . . right compared with the Indian sannyāsīs in our conduct. So can we expect to . . . to honor Śrīla Prabhupāda if we conduct ourselves like that? So it is our, our, our responsibility as the leaders not to avoid it, not to avoid the other devotees, but to train them now, begin training. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is Vaiṣṇava training. Now we should have our routine work. Just like here: punctual. As soon as I see seven, I ask where this is happening, kīrtana vidhi . As soon it as it is five, I immediately ask. So there may be a small assembly, but the routine work must be followed. If somebody is sleeping and the kīrtana is going on, or the morning program is going on, so he may be said that, "If you sleep like that, then you cannot be here." Devotee (2): I said that to that boy previously. I told him not to do that. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why you . . . (indistinct) . . . something, pour water on his body? Devotee (2): Simply to waken him. Prabhupāda: You should not do anything which may provoke some reaction. (background whispering) So best thing was to say that he is not in good shape. Say to me that he is incorrigible, and I could have asked him, "Don't . . ." Now he's finished. He may leave one day. Once, twice, if he does not follow, then we shall ask him just to "Please leave this place." That's all. That should be our manifesto. And we should also. The police said that, when I told him that our regulation is that everyone should get up at four, so he immediately replied: "I don't see anyone rising at four. Nobody." What can I answer? Devotee (2): How can he say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can he see if anyone is rising at four or not? Prabhupāda: No, here he can. Because we have a space like that, can be seen. Open spaces, morning, he can identify here. Just by your sight. Devotee (2): But he is rising. Devotee: I am rising. Prabhupāda: He is rising, but others. Devotee (2): Some others are rising. None . . . not all, but some of them are rising. Devotee (1): The whole point is that the sannyāsīs must see that that standard is kept to the highest. That is their job. That is why you take sannyāsa . Prabhupāda: But that should be observed, and peacefully it should be settled. If it is not peacefully settled, the man who is continually disobeying, he should be simply asked, "Please go." You cannot beat him. That will . . . Devotee (4): Who has the authority to say to somebody "Please go" or not? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (4): Who has the authority to tell a person "Please go"? We don't know . . . I don't know who has that authority. Prabhupāda: The president will say. So long I am here, I shall say . . . (indistinct) Devotee (1): This, this daṇḍa gives authority to the . . . Prabhupāda: That gives authority. That gives authority. Devotee (5): Not in ISKCON. Not in ISKCON. Devotee (1): Yes it does, in the US. Devotee (4): No, they do not respect sannyāsīs . Devotee (1): Yes they do. Devotee (4): No, they don't. Devotee (1): Because you may not deserve it, then. Devotee (4): Now I am getting so . . . the thing is, they may say like, that but behind my back they talk so many things . . . Prabhupāda: If they do not obey the orders of the sannyāsīs , then naturally . . . but that thing should be brought to the notice at hand, some official president. The case should be taken that if you cannot follow the rules and regulations, you must leave. There is . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no question of fighting. First thing is that the sannyāsīs , leaders, they should behave themselves according to the rules and regulations and then ask others to follow. The others, they do not follow: once, twice excuse; three times, "Please go away." Devotee (1): If you follow strictly the principles then you will be automatically respected. Acyutanānda: Now if I wanted to ask someone to leave, but how does he leave? Do we have to buy him his ticket or something? There was a boy, one Indian, Indra . . . Indrarāja . . . Prabhupāda: Leave means he can go to another center. Acyutanānda: I wanted to ask him to leave, but where would he go? Who will pay for his way out? What do you mean? Prabhupāda: One thing is, that is ultimate. We are canvassing, we are preaching to bring men . . . Devotee (5): Here. Prabhupāda: To get them out is not our business. Devotee (5): Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is not our business, that's all. But if he is incorrigible, it is not . . . then he must leave. That is . . . if you're making so much preaching, why? To bring men, not to ask them to go. If for some paltry reason you ask, that is not . . . when he is incorrigible, first of all you have to try to encourage him. That is preaching. Our preaching means that people are misled. We have to train them in such a way they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our mandate. But if he is completely incorrigible, then he will be asked. Not . . . otherwise it is not our business that as soon as we see something we should think wrong. He must be trained by our example, by our teaching, by our word. Eh? Santa . . . santa chindanti, uktibhiḥ ( SB 11.26.26), by word, by example, he should be corrected. If I cannot correct him by my words and example, that is also my intimidation. Because they have . . . you cannot expect that everyone has come here, sādhu . That's not. You collect from ordinary men, but we have to make him sādhu . That is preaching. That is preaching. That you have to do tactfully. Not that because one is . . . incorrigible men, after trying all our ways, if he is still incorrigible, then you can ask. Not that for fancy reasons, he should not be . . . "Get out." That "Get out," if you made, then everything has to be "Get out." That is not the policy. The policy is first of to correct him. That is preaching. As far as possible by example, by teaching, by everything. Devotee (5): Hmm, engaging. *Prabhupāda: By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If at the school and does not learn nicely, you cannot say: "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then we have to ask. And if there is money required, you have to manage your money. What can be done? But I don't think, if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be practiced. He is after all human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourselves. Āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi. We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly, come to . . . (indistinct) . . . how you can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpane ācare prabhu jīva . First of all you have to behave. If one is not cleansing, you should take . . . (indistinct) . . . just like I have to sometimes: "Not this way but this way." We have to do like that. Not that I command, "You do this," "I cannot do it," "Ah, get out!" Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for teaching, and that teaching means one should behave himself nicely. He cannot say that "You do not do this." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda*-kumāra. You . . . he was accusing you; you were accusing him. I heard from God. (laughter) So you should do in such a way that he cannot accuse you. If you ask him to rise early in the morning and take your bath, and if you do not take . . . eh? But in some special case . . . I was taking early bath; now I do not take, because due to my health. That is different. Otherwise regularly I was taking, not even hot water. This hot water bath I have begun in your country; otherwise I have never took, even in the severest cold. Here also I am trying to avoid; I'm keeping this tub of water. Sunshine, whatever little warm it becomes, that's all. So for special health reasons one cannot rise, he is sick. Not generally. Otherwise everyone should rise early in the morning and take bath and be ready for performing in our centers by six o'clock, by five o'clock. And the kīrtana party, you should have everyone go. It may be small distance, but all our men should go. That will be real welfare, seeing the early in the morning so many parties come. Devotee (5): From 3.30. *Prabhupāda: Three*-thirty. So you behave yourself and others will follow. What is that? Cleanliness and following the routine work. That is our method. You must be very clean, neat and clean, rise early in the morning, and we have got our duties. *Devotee: Just like yesterday. Yesterday Dvija*-hari came over and said he couldn't get anyone to clean the temple. No one would clean, over at Keśī-ghāṭa. I said: "But there are so many sannyāsīs there, ask them to organize the cleansing party." He said: "Oh, no one would clean. They will not do it." So it doesn't . . . Prabhupāda: Why not? Some people should be engaged, you have to get them cleaning. Devotee (4): They won't, then you have to show them how. You do it also. Acyutanānda: Because so many people have come and gone. We had a cleaning group and they left for other parties. Devotee (4): No, but I'm just saying there are many men there who could have cleaned, but they refused to do it, because they are following your examples. Acyutanānda: I am cleaning my room, I am cleaning outside also. You just haven't seen it. Prabhupāda: Anyway, whatever is done is done. This should be followed like that Devotee (4): No, I'm not criticizing . . . Prabhupāda: That, āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi , this should be the principle. One should teach others by behaving himself correctly, then it will be all right. Everyone should remain clean, everyone should rise early in the morning, study, do some work, routine work. So then you can ask, "Why you're not trying? Why you're not doing?" Then he will be ashamed . . . (indistinct) . . . so this principle should be followed, āpane ācare prabhu jīva ṛṣi . Is it not? Acyutanānda: Yes, well, for myself in particular I don't think that many people take my words very heavily. There is so much bad talking about me. First they say the songs are māyā , then the tunes are māyā . Behind my back I hear all kinds of things they say. So nobody takes my word seriously. Even though I may quote from many scriptures, they don't respect me. Prabhupāda: What is this māyā ? Acyutanānda: Hmm? Prabhupāda: The songs are māyā ? Hare Kṛṣṇa? Acyutanānda: As soon as I left Calcutta, all the bhajanas , they were all, "Oh, that's, that's Gauḍīya Maṭha poison." Then "Okay, the songs are all right but the tunes are poison." Devotee (4): I . . . Acyutanānda: Now how can I overcome this? Devotee (4): I heard something in reference to that. You wrote one of the devotees in Calcutta, you wrote . . . he came to Bombay, Bhavānanda, and he said that he had signed a letter, something like, "I pray that I may be engaged in the service of my Guru Mahārāja," and you wrote back, "We are personalists to the letter, so that when we say: "Guru Mahārāja," we always say the name, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda or Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. We don't just leave it in as vague "Guru Mahārāja." " So we were singing Jaya Prabhupāda, or Jaya gurudeva , and he was saying, "Well, that is impersonalist." *Acyutanānda: Also he says nitāi*-gaura haribol, that is also . . . that is māyā . What is that? Devotee (4): So he was saying that all these bhajanas , they're . . . they are not bona fide because they are . . . *Prabhupāda: Nitāi*-gaura haribol is not bona fide? Who said that, not bona fide? Devotee (4): Well not that. He was saying that jaya gurudeva, jaya Prabhupāda, that was not good. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (4): He was saying that is not good, " jaya gurudeva ," because it does not say who. It just says gurudeva ; it could be any gurudeva . So he was criticizing that. Prabhupāda: Who was? Devotee (4): Bhavānanda, because of the letter you wrote to him saying that we are personalists to the letter. Acyutanānda: So it means that I am a Māyāvādī. That is what it means. Devotee: Well, it's a matter of overall conduct, not just individual specific things. Acyutanānda: That overall I am a Māyāvādī. Devotee (6): I find that overall the bad atmosphere in India, the resentment against many of the devotees, party politics and different things like that are going on, which is not limited; it is going on all over . . . Devotee (4): That's very heavy . . . *Devotee (6): Just like with . . . just like with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. He has . . . has the respect of everyone now because he's doing such a good job of managing. He's just doing, he is performing nicely his devotional work, and he is getting some results. That's respect. Then you will get respect. Bali*-mardana Mahārāja, he has built up ISKCON Press, 'til it is just like that (snaps fingers), and everyone touches his feet when they see him. You don't find anyone disrespecting him, because he is performing his duties. You automatically get respect if you perform something nicely. Not just say: "Oh, the atmosphere is bad . . ." Prabhupāda: Well, we have got many faults we can find out, but generally if I behave nicely others will follow. That is the principle. I may have some faults, you may some. We are not liberated paramahaṁsas ; we are all trying. So generally we should behave very nicely according to rules and regulations: chanting sixteen rounds, rising early in the morning. Particularly maybe there is some discrepancies here and there. So . . . generally it is our general rules and . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all rising early in the morning, if he cleans, and if they read for a . . . (indistinct) . . . if these things are followed, chant sixteen rounds, then everything is there. *Devotee (4): In your lectures you emphasize two aspects that must be there: jñāna and renunciation. So some knowledge is there, but the part of the difficulty is that with most of the devotees in every temple in India is that they have not renounced these dirty things completely. They still are attached to sense gratification even on gross levels. So whether a sannyāsī or anybody interferes with their sense gratification, they tend to not oblige, because they are attached to doing things the way they want, and they think because they are in a foreign country, here a long way from America, where the standards are very rigid, that they can do any manner of nonsense and nobody would check them. And if you try to correct them, then they will only do it behind your back. We have seen this with the sweet shops, with rising early, anything that interferes with them doing exactly as they please. They don't want to oblige. And this is in Calcutta, this is in Bombay, and it is happening here in Vṛndāvana. It is not something that is isolated here to the Palace, but the devotees all over, they are just behaving on a level of sense gratification, and that is why there is so much rajas*-guṇa in the temples. So much rajas-guṇa . Prabhupāda: This is a fact. But how to correct it if you do not correct yourself? How it can happen? Devotee (4): Well we . . . many of us have tried to correct our self, and as a result we have been accused of being separatists simply because we don't want to go along with the nonsense that everybody else is doing, but we want to maintain some standard for our self, of reading and chanting, because we don't want to sit down and talk nonsense or do nonsense. And if you try to stop them, they will not stop. So why should we fall down to that level? So we behave as separatists. We go into our room and we will read, or we will go into our room and chant, or we will try to keep ourselves clean or try and do these things, and that is separatism because it is not falling into the level of māyā that is going on everywhere else in the temple—engaging in party politics and all these other things. That is . . . that is what I feel about it. Most of the devotees, they seem out of place . . . Prabhupāda: Now what is done is done. Now you try to correct others by behaving yourselves. Otherwise there is no need of keeping so many men. We have attempted this in Vṛndāvana. A few men may remain here, that's all. Otherwise it would be not very nice to attract. People are attracted by seeing your behavior. They are seeing that all Europeans and Americans, they have adopted such nice Vaiṣṇava culture. There are attracted from that point. But if we are not to the standard point, they immediately appeal, "Oh they are useless". So that should be corrected. The same principle: āpane ācare prabhu . . . they should behave also nicely and teach others; then it will be . . . Devotee (6): What co . . . *Prabhupāda: And another, this is general principle. Now we have discussed, now you try to follow. And another thing that, that Keśī*-ghāṭa, shall we make further progress? We have acquired that property obviously dropped. What is your opinion? From the circumstances, and that is now, because any temple it must be nicely, very nicely managed; otherwise we cannot maintain. Our Los Angeles temple, you know we attract people, you know it is so nicely managed, very nicely managed. You have seen? So unless . . . and that means there must be sufficient men to manage. Such a big temple . . . Devotee (6): I don't . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? *Devotee (6): I don't think that, that there is enough people to clean up and manage and keep clean Keśī*-ghāṭa. Maybe in the future sometime, but . . . Prabhupāda: At the present it is not. Devotee (6): It is so big, so big. Devotee: Also, the quality of people that are there, the mass people of a higher quality and a smaller place would do much more good. Like I was in the Philippines by myself, all alone, but still, the work could go on much quicker because I could avoid all of this. I could avoid all of this with what we are having right now. I could avoid it completely because there was nobody there to cause it. All new people. So . . . Devotee (6): Everybody here knows everything. (several devotees laugh) As, like . . . Devotee: It goes up very quickly, because the people are automatically attracted, and then you teach them, you train them. So last, Americans, and just one or two people that want to manage, and then start with the people here, the Indian people. And as they develop and become strong, then develop a center. It may take a long time, but it will be solid, be more solid then. Just bring a bunch of Americans here, and then the whole thing falls to pieces, and it will ruin our reputation in that particular area where we want to open a temple. Prabhupāda: What is your suggestion? Devotee: That we start a small center and then develop it gradually with less, ah, with less inexperienced people . . . Devotee (6): We had a small center here . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (6): We have had a small center here for nearly a year, eight months. Devotee (4): Well, well we are not saying . . . he's not saying that that's going to succeed, but at least it may not be as much of a travesty. Whether or not we are going to succeed at all in India in getting Indians to listen to what we were saying, that is another whole point. But . . . Devotee: At least we won't be killing ourselves. At least we won't be making it so that in the future we will have to leave India—we will be asked to leave, our visas will be taken away and we will be asked to leave. These things could happen very easily. It is not . . . it is not a . . . it is not a impossible thing. There are places in the world where we can't go already, Singapore—these things have happened. So I feel we should be very, very careful and selective about who we let in . . . Prabhupāda: In Singapore our men cannot enter. Devotee (4): Yeah . . . Devotee: This has happened. Devotee (4): Yeah. There is many places that, although legally we can enter, still, people don't like us, you know. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Yes. Singapore, legally also we cannot enter. Devotee (6): They wouldn't even let you in. Devotee (4): I think that his point, I think I . . . we spoke about this in Manila. It was that anywhere in the world, as a general policy, from what I've experienced, is that if one or two people are sent to an area or are in an area and they are given full authority to try to get that population to engage in bhakti - yoga , engage in this process, that that gradual development with the local people, that has more effect than, than if we bring in a big party and try to do a big thing. And then, then the person has to get strong who is doing it. If I have to go somewhere, then I have to . . . I have to get strong for myself; I have to, you know, start from scratch. Devotee (5): Yeah I know, I know the difficulty they are having, sannyāsīs have here, because many of these devotees think it is more like a tour, vacation, to come to India. They don't have to follow the rules and regulations. Devotee (4): Right. Devotee (5): They are only temporarily or they are just passing through. But it is very difficult, I know. But still we have to try to train somehow. Prabhupāda: Therefore we cannot establish very big establishment, because they come as a tourist. Devotee (5): Yeah. Devotee: And if the temple is constructed, they would have to be more rigidly controlled. They would have to be managed by people that, by their preaching and by their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can make it so that the people who come and stay in that temple will want to practice bhakti . Can't be a negative aspect thing, a negative motivation. You're not going to keep . . . Prabhupāda: No, such camps, because you're not established. So what are your suggestions? What is to be done? Devotee (5): Well . . . Prabhupāda: Shall we reduce, devotees? Devotee (5): Yes, we have our base in Calcutta . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (5): We have our base in Bombay, those two places. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee (5): Those are important cities in the world. Prabhupāda: And Vṛndāvana, as long as our temple is not constructed, we should minimize? Devotee (5): Yes. Prabhupāda: So then automatically there is no question of devotees sleeping. Devotees: No. Devotee: Because not everyone is going to, ah, want to be, ah, you know. If the temple is not there, where the devotees can just come and fall into the schedule and program and activities . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: . . . then they will not want to maintain any standard themselves. They will just fall back immediately into their old habits naturally. Devotee (5): Of course, if we could, we could enter the negotiation and save it for a future date, because it won't be available . . . Devotee (4): I don't think we need to worry about that. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (4): I think that if we, if we don't worry about the material thing at all, that if we do these . . . we start and we have a spiritual base, that it will grow naturally and Kṛṣṇa will provide us with any material facilities we need. We don't need to try to get things for the future. Devotee (5): Yeah. Devotee (4): If we have devotees, then . . . Devotee (5): That's why I was thinking Kṛṣṇa doesn't want us to have it, really. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: What is the use of having a giant temple if we are all . . . (laughs) We see that all over India. They have giant temples, but no . . . Prabhupāda: Management. Devotee: No management. Devotee (4): As far as the men, since I think a lot of them are even . . . some cases they are sending problem cases to India, people they can't manage in the States. (laughter) I think that maybe if you divide, if you actually . . . since in the States you divided the States into territories, and certain men have certain territories, if you maybe appoint certain people in charge of territories of India and ask them which men they want, then they will tell you who they want, and the rest they can send away or send somewhere else. Then you will have solid centers, because the men will actually be desired. Prabhupāda: That's . . . so we make that. Needed. Devotee (5): Isn't that . . . didn't Śaṅkarācārya do that? Divide it four parts? Devotee (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: We have . . . Śaṅkarācārya was concerned in India. Devotee (5): Yeah. Prabhupāda: But we are preaching all over the world. Therefore we have divided four, eh, twelve, twelve zones. Devotee (4): Hmm. Prabhupāda: Our . . . my idea is like that, Śaṅkarācārya. Devotee (5): But India itself could be divided even, a few parts for preaching . . . Prabhupāda: That is already divided: Calcutta, Bombay, Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. Devotee (5): So the men in charge, they could say which men they wanted to keep, and the rest they could sent somewhere else, and that way you would have men who were willing to work on the project. And they who are not willing to work, they could also be sent somewhere else. Prabhupāda: So make something like that, because I cannot tax my brain with the administration. Devotee (5): Yeah. Well Tamāla Kṛṣṇa will be in Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: We, eh, physically I am weak. I have decided if I have to see to the administration then I cannot think of writing books . . . Devotee (5): Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . how to present our philosophy to be understandable by the people. Therefore the administration is divided. Now you do it. Little intelligence. You have got still respect. Keep our standard; people will like us. People will also give us service. Just like this big sannyāsī , already the biggest sannyāsī , congressman, he is attracted, but he is a man of immense resource, men and money, eh. Immense resources. Devotee (5): We have to be careful not to . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (5): Not to, erm . . . Devotee (4): Offend them. Devotee (5): . . . offend these people . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (5): . . . and make spiritual . . . Prabhupāda: So, not offend. There is no question of offending. We should behave ourselves very nicely. Offending or pleasing, that is not relevant. Devotee (5): No. Prabhupāda: You cannot offend everyone, neither you can please everyone. That is not possible. You keep to your standard. Devotee (5): Hmm. Not . . . Prabhupāda: You keep to your own standard, then everything, everyone will see, "Oh, it is nice". Offending . . . you cannot please everyone; that is not possible, even if you behave very nicely. Caitanya Mahāprabhu could not please everyone. He had to start civil disobedience. Even Gandhi was killed. That is not possible. You cannot please everyone, but you must stick to your own principle and behave like that, just see. All right. (Devotees talking amongst themselves) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . someone said that, Prabhupāda said respect it (indistinct) Devotee (2): You can make offerings to it. Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda said offer whatever you get to it. Devotee (3): Offer it products. Devotee: And food. Devotee (2): Whatever you get. Devotee: Can you do this transfer? Devotee: Now this is . . . (break) (end) Conversation A in Hindi -- April 6, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation in Hindi (Some English) During Lunch) HINDI TRANSCRIPTION भक्त: (घोषणा करते हुए) यह है। . . (अस्पष्ट) . . . वृन्दावन में, दोपहर के भोजन के समय। पहले तो जो गुरु हैं उनको प्रणाम करें। परन्तु बात ये नहीं है की हमलोग जन्म से जिससे अटैच्ड हैं। इसमें बहुत झगड़ा है। प्रभुपाद: क्या झगड़ा है? भक्त: प्रमाण है। प्रभुपाद: शास्त्र प्रमाण है। भक्त: ये आपका शिष्य जो कार्ल मास्टरजी के साथ गए थे इनसे पूछिए। है, है, तो क्या बोला? प्रभुपाद: क्या? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: है, है, तो क्या बोला? भक्त: मैं एहि बोला वो आपको सौ । दुसरे वर्ण के गुण पाए जाये अगर ब्राह्मण में शूद्र के गुण पाए जाये तो उसे शूद्र समझना चाहिए, ब्राह्मण नही। और वो आपने हमको बताया था श्रीमद भागवतम के स्कन्द से श्लोक में वो बोले की तीन प्रकार का शेर होता है। शेर वो तीन प्रकार का होता है, लायन। तो एक लायन उसको कहते हैं जो असली लायन। दूसरा लायन उसको कहते हैं जो लायन जैसा आदमी है। तीसरा लायन जो है सिर्फ पिक्चर का लायन। तो इस प्रकार तो एक ही है लेकिन भेद है। तो इस वाक्य के अंदर । प्रभुपाद: जो जैन श्रीधर स्वामी, वीर राघवाचार्य, विश्वनाथ चक्रवर्ती, भक्त: वो उनके जो दो-चार शिष्य थे हमको बोलने नहीं दिए, वो समझे की वो बहुत बड़े हैं और हम बहुत छोटे हैं। हम ज्यादा बोल नहीं सके। चैतन्य संप्रदाय में, रामानुजा संप्रदाय में, सब आपस में । वो लोग तो बोलता है की हम जो बोलता है वो शास्त्र है। ये जो आपका हरिद्वार में आये थे मध्वा संप्रदाय का एक आचार्य। तो वो बोलै के शास्त्रार्थ करेगा। जो विभूति है भगवान का है। भक्त: हम बताया की माना की एक दोष है। आप ९९९ गुण नहीं देखते हैं और एक दोष देखते हैं और उसको रिजेक्ट कर देते हैं। ये शायद आपके फिलॉस्फी के विपरीत, अलग है, भिन्न है। फिर भी आप देख सकते है की सारी दुनिया में किस तरह से विचार है। प्रभुपाद: हम उसको पकड़ते नहीं। श्रीधर स्वामी, वीर राघवाचार्य, विश्वनाथ चक्रवर्ती, जीव गोस्वामी, बड़े-बड़े सब आचार्य, वो सब अपने टिका में सपोर्ट करते हैं। वो तो बोला नहीं के तीन प्रकार का शेर होता है। ये सब बताया नहीं। एक शेर । बाकि ये जो भारत की दुर्दशा है झूट-मूट । अर्चे विष्णु शिलाधीर। जैसे भगवान का मूर्ति दर्शन करने के लिए सारा दुनिया से इधर आते हैं। और कोई आकरके ये तो पत्थर है जी, इसको देखने के लिए इतना मुर्ख आदमी सब आते हैं। बोलता है, आर्य समाज बोलता है। भक्त: हमलोग के यहाँ प्राण प्रतिष्ठा होने से मूर्ति में भगवान हैं। प्रभुपाद: प्राण प्रतिष्ठा जो शूद्र है वो ब्राह्मण प्रतिष्ठा नहीं हो सकेगा? एक पत्थर में प्राण प्रतिष्ठा होता है और एक जीवित है उसमे वैष्णव प्रतिष्ठा नहीं। देखिये क्या । पत्थर में प्राण प्रतिष्ठा और एक जीवित में, उसमे कोई प्रतिष्ठा नहीं। वो पत्थर से भी ज़बरदस्त है। ये विचार है। इफ यू कैन गिव लाइफ टू ए पत्थर, यू कन्नोट गिव ए लिविंग बीइंग कृष्ण भक्ति? भक्त: भक्ति का तो। प्रभुपाद: तो फिर और क्या है? भक्त: भक्ति का तो बहुत आदर करते हैं। पिछले जमाने में बोलते है हमारा हरिदास चमार था। प्रभुपाद: हमारा तो हरिदास ठाकुर मुस्लमान था। उसको हरिदास ठाकुर को अद्वैता आचार्य, प्रेजिडेंट ऑफ़ दी ब्राह्मण शांतिपुर उनको वो स्वाद पात्र दिया। तो वो हरिदास ठाकुर उनको बोला “अद्वैता प्रभु आप तो हमको बहुत यत्न करते हैं बाकि ये जो स्वाद पात्र हमको दिया इसमें तो आपको समाज में बड़ा मुश्किल रहेगा”। तो वो चैलेंज किया की कौन ऐसा ब्राह्मण है हमसे आ करके वो तर्क करें। हम जानते हैं की आपको खिलने से एक हज़ार ब्राह्मण का जो फल होता है वो मिलेगा। वो खामोश था। अद्वैता आचार्य जो ब्राह्मण समाज के प्रेजिडेंट उन्होंने कहा की आपको हरिदास ठाकुर मैं भोजन करा दिया एक हज़ार ब्राह्मण को भोजन करने से जो फल मिलता है, और वो था मुस्लमान। वो खुद ही कहा की महाराज आप हमको इतना चाहते हैं। आपको समाज में । और चैतन्य महाप्रभु हरिदास ठाकुर का डेड बॉडी ले करके कीर्तन किया, और उनका स्पष्ट बात है ये चैतन्य महाप्रभु कहा की चाहे ब्रह्मण होए चाहे शूद्र होए, और चाहे गृहस्त होए चाहे सन्यासी वो अगर कृष्ण प्राप्ति, कृष्ण तत्त्व वित्त है तो वो। “किबा विप्र, किबा न्यासी, शूद्र केने नए” इसलिए चैतन्य महाप्रभु प्रमाण स्वरुप ये हरिदास ठाकुर को नामचार्य बनाया, वेदांत आचार्य। ये नाम का आचार्य। नाम प्रचार करने को आया खुद आचार्य नहीं बना वो हरिदास ठाकुर को आचार्य बनाया, नामचार्य। इसलिए हमलोग जय कहते हैं नामचार्य श्रीला हरिदास ठाकुर की जय। है ये सब विचार तो इंडिया में ही रहेगा। अब तो बहार में और है। भक्त: ये तो किताब हम देखा नहीं। प्रभुपाद: इसका एक सीक्रेट है। प्रभुपाद: चैतन्य महाप्रभु किया। उन्होंने भविष्य वाणी कर दिया था प्रभुपाद: ये हम कभी बोला नहीं था आज बोल रहे हैं। सीक्रेट है की हम हम सोच रहा था। जब तक गुरु महाराज बोला की तुम वेस्टर्न कंट्री में जाओ और अंग्रेजी में प्रचार करो हम सोच रहे हैं की ये जो जब हम बोलेंगे की मीट ईटिंग, इल्लिसित सेक्स, मदिरा सेवन । बाकि ये हमारा दृढ़ विश्वास था जब चैतन्य महाप्रभु बोल दिया की सारा दुनिये में हमारा नाम प्रचार करो, ये कैसे गलत हो सकता है। ये हमारा विश्वास था। इसलिए ये वृन्दावन में सत्तर वर्ष आयु में हमने सोचा की गुरु महाराज ने बोला था, चैतन्य महाप्रभु बताये, चलो एक दफे हम ट्राई करते हैं। तो वो सक्सेस हुआ तो ये उनलोग का आशीर्वाद है। मैं तो होपलेस था की ये हो कैसे सकता है। बाकि ये विश्वास। ये विश्वास की चैतन्य महाप्रभु बोलै है तो जरूर होने वाला है। भक्त: ट्राई करते हैं (हंसी) प्रभुपाद: ये हमारा अट्टू विश्वास। चैतन्य महाप्रभु बताया है की सारा पृथ्वी इसको ग्रहण करे तो होपलेस होते हुए भी चलो एक दफा ट्राई करे। ये दृढ़ विश्वास। चैतन्य चरितामृत में बताये हैं "श्रद्धा शब्दे विश्वास सुदृढ़ निश्चय"। श्रद्धा वो उसी को श्रद्धा बोलै जाता है जिसका विश्वास सुदृढ़ निश्चय। कृष्णा भक्ति कैले। इतना तो हमारा विश्वास पूर्ण। आप सीक्रेट ऑफ़ सक्सेस चाहते थे एहि है सीक्रेट, विश्वास। कुयूं नहीं। चैतन्य फालतू बात बोलै है? भक्त: आप ने तो अमेरिका में कर दिया। मेरी भावना ये की आपको प्रभु प्रेम आ गयी है। ये तो कल हम गोवर्धन गया था भाई ये तो बड़ी विभूति है। आपके बारे में सब बात हुआ। हम बोले सब ऐसा-ऐसा है इतना । तब वो बोलै की कोई भी सक्सेस नहीं हुआ। वो क्या नाम है महेश योगी फ़ैल हो गया। कितना आदमी लोग गया, आप सक्सेस जो गए। प्रभुपाद: ये जो महेश योगी है न, इसका सेक्रेटरी, खास साथ में रहता है। वो उनको पूछा महाराज हम तो भगवान को चाहते हैं। हम तो भगवान को चाहते हैं। उनको मास्टरजी बोला की अगर तुम भगवान को चाहते हो तो, भक्ति वेदांत स्वामी , वो बोल दिया। भक्त: उनके पर्सनल थे, वो उनसे अलग हो गए। महेश योगी का सीक्रेट हमलोग जानता है क्यूंकि । ये शंकराचार्य थे न उनका शिष्य । तो बाद में उनसे अलग हो करके कुछ नहीं था। प्रभुपाद: उनका जो फिलोसोफी है, ये जो यूरोप, अमेरिकन है, जो योग-योग के पीछे जाते हैं, । ये जो सत्ता है योग कहके ठग-ठगके कुछ रूपया । भक्त: और इसी प्रभाव में बहुत इंडियन लोग भी है। । क्यूंकि उधर गर्मी की मौसम में बहुत आदमी लोग सत्संग में जाता है न । वो अपना गुरु से झगड़ा किया, वो बोलता है उनको पाइजन भी वोही दिया, फिर उनका ग्रुप था, वो मर गया, दूसरा कोई जो गया । प्रभुपाद: मुस्लमान को भी दीक्षा दिया। भक्त: यहां है क्या? (हंसी) प्रभुपाद: भक्त: तो महाराज ये है । मैंने आपकी बड़ी हिस्ट्री पढ़ी है। प्रभुपाद: ये अहमदाबाद में कोई स्वामी वो जगद्गुरु लिखता है। तो उसको चैलेंज करता है आप जगद्गुरु लिखा है, जगत कभी देखा भी है? इंडिया के बहार कभी गया? क्यों । भक्त: ठीक कहा। महाराज जी तो खुद सेल्फ-स्ट्य्लेड हैं। यहाँ भी एक हैं, मैं नाम नहीं लूँगा, वो महामण्डलेश्वर प्रभुपाद: अरे हमारा तो ये फिलोसोफी नहीं है जो हिन्दू मुस्लमान । भक्त: लेकिन, आप ऑटोमेटिकली । प्रभुपाद: कोई क्रिस्चियन को पूछता है क्रिस्चियन धर्म से भगवान की प्राप्ति हो सकती है की नहीं? शास्त्र में बताया उसको पालन करो। अब जैसे जीसस क्राइस्ट बोलता है "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" बट यू आर वैरी एक्सपर्ट इन किलिंग, व्हाट काइंड ऑफ़ क्रिस्चियन यू आर? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: असल में क्रिस्चियन वास्तविक हो । ये मुस्लमान है ठीक से अगर । क्यूंकि ये तो सब का अधिकार है की आदमी को भगवान का नाम सुनाये। मुस्लमान को जोकि उनको पांच दफे मस्जिद में जा करके सर झुका करके । तो ऐसा देश, काल, पात्र का उसमे रहेगा। ये तो आपको बाकि जो काम करने वाला है वो कहाँ तक भगवान का विषय कोई उसको समझाए। उसी । ये क्रिस्चियन लोग जो यहाँ देखिये टेन कमांडमेंट्स में है की "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" और जीसस क्राइस्ट को ही पहले क्रूसिफ़ाइ कर दिया। किस थे वो लोग? भक्त: प्रभुपाद: वो मना किया की किल नहीं करो और वो किल किया आपको पहले। भक्त: मैं आपको मिलने आये थे उनसे क्या बात कहूँ? प्रभुपाद: उनकी इच्छा है। ये जो आपका इधर में रिलिजन है, आप इधर क्यों । ये हमारा रिलिजन है नहीं उधर जाईये। देख के बोला इधर भी रिलिजन है नहीं। क्यूंकि क्राइस्ट बोलता है "दोउ शॉल नॉट किल" और सब लोग किल करते हैं। भक्त: प्रभुपाद: से बोल रहा है। इधर तो रिलिजन है। हम तो करते हैं। उधर चर्च में है क्या, उधर कोई रिलिजन है नहीं। भक्त: प्रभुपाद: नहीं, मैं भी उसको जवाब दिया की इधर रिलिजन है। भक्त: हरे कृष्णा। Conversation -- April 14, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: How can young man . . . (indistinct) . . . understand the aim of life? It is stated in . . . (indistinct) . . . they are being educated by the . . . (indistinct) . . . but they do not know what is the aim of life. What kind of education? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was reading an examination book in Bengal when we were in that small village. And under the psychology section they have one question, "What is the physical basis of consciousness?" This was standard question in Bengal on psychology for high school, "What is the physical basis of consciousness?" So that is what they are asking them. This is exactly . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . either. The subtlety. Eight: gross and subtle. Mind is subtle matter. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how does the subtle mind connect to the gross senses? Prabhupāda: Mind is the controller of the senses. With mind and the senses, six senses, the living being is struggling in this material world, prakṛti . Everyone is struggling, that is also true. Western theories, struggle for existence. They are struggling, and this is the relief, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When he gets Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . just like the other day, the Mathurā meeting, one small child, two years old, was young, and one boy took him on the stage, and his mother came. So how anxiously he went to his mother, happy, steady. He was feeling vacant, all world, without mother. So many people are gathering, but because he could not find out his mother, he was abject. That is struggle for existence. Everything is there, but he is finding better. And that is our position. We are also part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So without Kṛṣṇa the hard struggle for existence is going on. But as soon as he will get Kṛṣṇa, he will be relieved. That is natural, exactly like the child without mother. World, seeing everything vacant—at that stage he cried. That is exhibited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: (aside) Come on, this side. *Devotee: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you said in the purports that the subtle body—mind, intelligence and false ego . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Get the light on. Yes? Push it. Devotee: The subtle body determines what goes on in the gross body, next gross body. Prabhupāda: The subtle body does not determine. Devotee: His mind, intelligence and false ego? Prabhupāda: I make a situation, then the higher authorities, nature, or above nature, Kṛṣṇa, decides. When you are punished of the warders by the court, the decision is made by the authorities, not by you. There . . . Indian lady: . . . (indistinct Hindi) (aside) *Prabhupāda: Somebody give prasādam . We create a situation, and the decision is higher authority: karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). Daiva-netreṇa , higher authority. Otherwise everyone would have decided that, "I shall become a king." Why not everyone? Why one becomes a stool worm? That is hard decision. What he has done, how he has created his mentality—according to that. Kṛṣṇa is there within your heart. He knows everything. When He understands that, "He wants to become like this," then He orders through the material nature, "Give him a body like this." Kṛṣṇa orders māyā that, "Give him a body which is just like a machine," yantra . Yantra means a machine. So he is seated on a certain type of machine. If he has developed pig's mentality, nature will give him a body of a pig, and he will very gladly eat stool. Similarly, if he has developed the mentality of higher demigods, he'll have body. Similarly, if he has developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will go to Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . it depends on him. You develop. Therefore the best thing is to associate with devotees and develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and then go back to home. That is the best utility of your life. If you simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is, then you become liberated, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma , "After leaving of this body, he does not take up any more material body." Material body is subjected to change, one body after another, one body after another. According to his mentality he is given by nature different types of body. He suffers. So if you want to stop this suffering of pralīyate, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate , taking one birth or again giving up this body and again accepting another . . . they do not . . . they have . . . the conditioned soul has become so dull and rascal, he does not take seriously that, "Why I am dying?" Therefore they have made their own theory, that there is no life after death, everything finished after death. This is the opinion of the Western philosophers, big, big professor, like Professor Kotovsky, Indologist. He said: "Swamījī, after death everything is finished." That means they have no spiritual idea. And our spiritual idea begins from the acceptance of transmigration of the soul. You go even to a village, illiterate, he believes in transmigration of the soul. Ordinary illiterate villagers, he believes. You have seen in Vṛndāvana? The other day, four or five days before, he was. You know? He was with me, walking in the field, and the kṛṣān —some of them were poor . . . (indistinct) . . . they came to congratulate me, "Sir, you have come to our field. It is a great fortune. Come here!" And your country it is trespass. (laughter) "Beware of the dog!" "Private!" Warns everyone not to come to my jurisdiction. And here the illiterate, the kiṣān , he saw one saintly man, he thought, "It is my great fortune that he has come." That is the difference between East and West. There they take it as trespass: "Why this man has come to my land?" He can fire even. But still. *So taking birth in India, where Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken by the Supreme Lord, we are so bewildered that we do not take the knowledge seriously. How much unfortunate? We question about Kṛṣṇa's instruction and do not take it, and daily manufacture a type of formula. Big, big men like Mr. Mundar—such a nice man—he has manufactured religion, manah . Every day, one becoming a different type of incarnation and a different type of religious system. And to make a compliment big, big swāmīs they are saying: "Yes. Yata mata tata pat . Whatever you manufacture, it is all right." This is India's misfortune. By birth he is fortunate, by work he is misfortunate. This is the situation. He has taken birth in India, it is a great fortune, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila (CC Adi 9.41). And without taking advantage of the great birth, he is misguided by the rascals. The whole country is now killed. Killed. The demigods desired to come to take birth again in India. That is stated in the Bhāgavata . The climate, the atmosphere, the education, the knowledge, wealth of knowledge, saintly persons . . . Kṛṣṇa comes here; Lord Rāmacandra comes here; Caitanya Mahāprabhu. We are so unfortunate, and to give to these bad leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is leading hundreds of blind men, and everyone is falling to the ditch. (break) *What business? Because they have become so mad that directly they will simply argue. They will not accept. The prahar's business is to flatter them and request them, "Kindly take this. Kindly take this." Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya (Caitanya*-candrāmṛta). After taking the grass in the mouth—because this is Indian way of humbleness, to take a grass and approach a gentleman—that means he has become a very humble . . . (indistinct) *Then many flattering words I am submitting. So the man, he's approach him and say: "All right, you can say what is your desire. " Kāku-śatam kṛtvā ahaṁ bravīmi he sādhavaḥ . When you give chance, "All right, speak what you want to say." Then he says, he sādhavaḥ . Oh, he was a great sādhu . He sādhavaḥ, sakalam eva vihāya dūrād , "You are great sādhu , but kindly give up whatever nonsense you have learned." This is the . . . (indistinct) . . . Sakalam eva vihāya dūrād : "You are such a great person, but you are full of all nonsense knowledge. Kindly give it up." "Then what have I to do?" Caitanya*-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam : "You kindly be attached to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu." This is all right. We know he is a first-class fool, but he pretends to be a very learned scholar. So how he can be applaused? He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya : "Kindly give up all nonsensical ideas you have learned, and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." This is our . . . that is our preaching. So much nonsensical ideas they have developed. That is why it is very difficult. So this is the way of purport: he sādhavaḥ . If I say that you are rascal, (laughter) then you will be angry. Murkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śanta : if you advise good thing to a rascal, he will be angry, that is all. Therefore very politely, he sādhavaḥ, "You are a great sādhu , but one request, that is—forget all nonsense you have learned." That's all. In India they have simply learned all nonsense at the present moment. They have given up Kṛṣṇa's instruction, and they have learned all nonsense. Rubbish. This is going on. So if intelligent we learn at all, we shall give all nonsense ideas and take to Kṛṣṇa's instruction. That is the successful. Are you agreeable? (laughter) Ha! Devotee (2): (to guest) Are you agreeable? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? "All right," here you say. As soon as you go you will say: "No, you are nonsense. I am right." *And you become attached to Caitanya, Caitanya*-candra. You should become dearly attached to Caitanya-candra. Then you will become guru immediately. Caitanya-candra said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Wherever you are, there is a country," Caitanya-candra says: "you become a guru ." That is Caitanya. He asks everyone, every birth of India, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila (CC Adi 9.41). Anyone who has taken birth as human being in India is given so much facility. Janma sārthaka kari : make your life successful and become a guru . You have got the capacity. Devotee: Of course, the concept of transmigration of the soul is . . . *Prabhupāda: By birth you, you are so advanced. (aside) Take this. Simply by taking birth in India. Just like in the village, you go, mostly illiterate, personally they will see you immediately a saintly person, immediately believe in the transmigration of the soul. Still, how much advantage it is in India? Simply he has to adjust only things a little. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā (CC Madhya 7.128): "Every one of you become a guru ." "How? What shall I do to become a guru ? I am illiterate, I have no education. How I can become guru ?"Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa: you hear instruction of Kṛṣṇa and just transfer it. (aside) Go on. You hear from the right person that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, and you simply say: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme." But you do not do it. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "I am the Supreme." Aham ādir hi devānāṁ (BG 10.2). You hear it from right person and go everywhere and say: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Being," and you just become a devotee of Him. Then you become a guru . And if you cheat them, show them some jugglery and become yourself Kṛṣṇa, then what can you do? That is going on. The so-called gurus , rascals, they are trying to become Kṛṣṇa. Instead of preaching Kṛṣṇa's they are trying to become Kṛṣṇa. Is it possible? But they think Kṛṣṇa very insignificant. They do not know what is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. *They’re asuric. Mahā*-Viṣṇu, from whose breathing millions of universes are coming out and going in, this Mahā-Viṣṇu is a partial representation of Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya . Just like we inhale, exhale out, and so many atoms are coming out and going in. Similarly, Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing, and millions of universes are coming and going. That Mahā-Viṣṇu, viṣṇur mahān sa iha, yasya kalā-viśeṣo, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ , that is Kṛṣṇa. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11): those who are rascals are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, "Huh, Kṛṣṇa may be a little more intelligent than me. I am as good as Kṛṣṇa." This is going on, mūḍhās . (aside) Got it? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: Flowers. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Guest: Can I ask you a question? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Guest: Is the guru an absolute necessity for spiritual advancement? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: Is the guru an absolute necessity for spiritual advancement? Prabhupāda: What do you think? Guest: Because they are so rare, as you say it. There are so many gurus who are posing as . . . (indistinct) . . . which in itself disqualifies them to be gurus , and they are very rare. And how can one have gurus when they are so rare? Prabhupāda: Yes. When you go to purchase gold, you must have some idea what is gold. Otherwise you will be cheated. When you want to purchase gold you must have some idea of gold. If you have no idea, then you will be cheated. Guest: Then . . . Prabhupāda: First of all you must have to know, knowledge, what is guru . Otherwise you will be cheated. Guest: If one hasn’t got a guru , then how shall he advance? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is essential: ādau gurvāśra . But you do not know, at least, what is the nature of guru , then you will be cheated. Just like here the definition of guru I was speaking. You did not hear. You did not hear? Guest: No. Prabhupāda: I was speaking, and you did not hear? The symptom of guru ? Guest: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest: He should know . . . he himself should have realized, given . . . Prabhupāda: What is that realization? Guest: He should have experienced what is given . . . Devotee: What is that experience? *Prabhupāda: That means you are hearing, you’re thinking something else. I was just explaining what is guru a minute before, and you are asking the same question. Caitanya Mahāprabhu gives you the idea of guru , that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā, tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). He is saying that, "You become a guru . I order you." So what you will answer, sir? "I do not know anything. How shall I become guru ? Are you asking me to become a guru ?" The next line He says: "Yes. You can become guru immediately." Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa : "You simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṇa; *then you become a guru ." What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Idhar (here). So if you simply understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then you will understand guru also. You will not be cheated by so-called gurus . (break) Śiṣyas te 'haṁśādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). Therefore a guru means one who speaks on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, aiyee, he is guru . This is the definition of guru . Aiyee. There is no difficulty to find out guru . Just like if you want to purchase gold, you can purchase, although there is chance of being cheated. But you do not say that there is no gold. That you cannot say. Gold is there, but if you are a rascal you will be cheated. That is . . . depends on your knowledge. Gold is there, otherwise the world cannot go on. There is so many volumes of business in transactions of gold—going, coming, purchasing, selling. You cannot say there is no gold. But if you are a rascal, then you will be cheated. Somebody will give you iron and say: "It is gold. Take it." It depends upon you, a little intelligence. You cannot say because I have been cheated that there is no gold. Can you say like that? You do not know, you are a rascal. You do not know to find out where is gold, but you cannot say there is no gold. That is not possible. Real. Huh? Ki yuh? Because one has been cheated, he cannot say that there is no gold. Because you have been cheated by some counterfeit coins or notes, you cannot say there is no real note. It is your less intelligence you have been cheated. So guru's definition is given there in the śāstra , by the authorities. These are given, guru's symptoms. Just like we offer prayer to guru : *:prāptasya kalyāṇa*-guṇārṇavasya *Saṁsāra*-dāvānala , this material world is just like blazing fire— dāvānala , forest fire. In the forest nobody goes to set fire, it takes automatically by friction of dried bamboos. Nobody is interested to go to the forest to set fire, but still the fire takes place. Similarly, in this material world everyone wants to live very happily, but it is not allowed—there is fire. So guru means one who can save from this blazing fire. Prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya : that this forest fire . . . sometimes I was only . . . (indistinct) . . . go down the station, and there was forest fire upon the hill, and I asked them, "Why there is smoke?" They said: "There is fire, the very, very top height." Now who will go there to extinguish the fire? With your fire brigade or bucket of water? Who will be able to extinguish that fire? Then how the fire will be extinguished? Ghanāghanatvam , when there will be sufficient rainfall from the sky. That is guru's business: *Kāruṇya*-ghanā : guru is bestowed his so much mercy—cloud. A cloud is merciful, pours down rain and the fire becomes extinguished. Similarly, the guru , he has received such mercy from Kṛṣṇa, and he pours over, and the whole fire becomes . . . very good. Guest: I don't see how there are evil forces in the world. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: If the whole world is created by spiritual persons who found a spiritual source, how can there be evil forces? Devotee: (explaining) He is asking why there is evil in the world. If Kṛṣṇa is the creator of everything, why is there evil in the world? This is your question? Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa has created evil, or you have created evil? Answer this question. Guest: There is so many devils after . . . Prabhupāda: No, first of all answer this question. Evil . . . Guest: It is very puzzling, so I am asking you. Prabhupāda: No, whether you have created evil or Kṛṣṇa has created evil? You are infected with some disease, so you have infected or Kṛṣṇa has infected you? You are suffering from cholera, and the doctor says that you have infected cholera germ. So you have done it, or Kṛṣṇa has done it? Guest: It is a great riddle. Nobody has so far solved it. Devotee: (explaining) He says it is an unsolvable riddle so far. Prabhupāda: Not unsolvable. You are . . . you are going to jail, so your position of your going to jail is created by you or by Kṛṣṇa? Who has created that position? Hm? Answer this. Guest: What I wanted to say is that . . . Prabhupāda: You want to say, I want to say this. Answer this. Devotee: (explaining to guest) You commit a crime and go to jail. Are you responsible or is Kṛṣṇa responsible? Guest: Well, He will also have . . . *Prabhupāda: Why don't you understand that evil you create? Kṛṣṇa does not create. Kṛṣṇa wants to save you that, "You rascal, don't create evil. You surrender unto Me." Mūḍhā . Why you are creating evil? That is Kṛṣṇa's concern. Kṛṣṇa says: "You don't do it. Why you are doing that?" So who is creating evil? You are creating. You are creating your own evil, and you are accusing Kṛṣṇa. How much fool you are, just imagine. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya, mām (BG 18.66). "Why you are creating evil? You give up everything, come to Me." Why don't you go? And Kṛṣṇa is creating your evil? He is trying to save you from evil, and you are accusing Kṛṣṇa that He is creating. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo, mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66), and still you are accusing Kṛṣṇa. How much fool you are? Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.25). Find out this verse, tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair (BG 7.13). Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn’t it also true that if we think that Kṛṣṇa is creating this evil then we will never take a step to cure our own problem? Prabhupāda: Then that is avoiding Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa has created evil; why should I go to Kṛṣṇa?" This is the argument, "I shall create my own religion." That's all. Yata mat tata pat . Read it. Devotee: Prabhupāda: What is the translation? Read loud. Devotee: "Deluded by the three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance, the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible." Prabhupāda: Purport. Devotee: “The whole world is enchanted by three modes of material nature. Those who are bewildered by these three modes cannot understand that transcendental to this material nature is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. In this material world everyone is under the influence of these three guṇas and is thus bewildered. “By nature living entities have particular types of body and particular types of psychic and biological activities accordingly. There are four classes of men functioning in the three material modes of nature. Those who are purely in the mode of goodness are called brāhmaṇas . Those who are purely in the mode of passion are called kṣatriyas . Those who are in the modes of both passion and ignorance are called vaiśyas. Those who are completely in ignorance are called śūdras . And those who are less than that are animals or animal life. However, these designations are not permanent. I may be either a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or whatever—in any case, this life is temporary. But although life is temporary and we do not know what we are going to be in the next life, still, by the spell of this illusory energy, we consider ourselves in the light of this bodily conception of life, and we think that we are American, Indian, Russian or brāhmaṇa , Hindu, Muslim, etc. And if we become entangled with the modes of material nature, then we forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is behind all these modes. So Lord Kṛṣṇa says that men deluded by these three modes of nature do not understand that behind the material background is the Supreme Godhead. "There are many different kinds of living entities—human beings, demigods, animals, etc.—and each and every one of them is under the influence of material nature, and all of them have forgotten the transcendent Personality of Godhead. Those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, and even those who are in the mode of goodness, cannot go beyond the impersonal Brahman conception of the Absolute Truth. They are bewildered before the Supreme Lord in His personal feature, which possesses all beauty, opulence, knowledge, strength, fame and renunciation. When even those who are in goodness cannot understand, what hope is there for those in passion and ignorance? Kṛṣṇa consciousness is transcendental to all these three modes of material nature, and those who are truly established in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are actually liberated." Prabhupāda: So the conclusion is that we create our own evils. Guest: Whatever the destructive forces like . . . (indistinct) . . . have taken all these things. It is not created by demons. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: They are also destructive forces . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. To destroy you, because you are accusing Kṛṣṇa, then you shall be destroyed. Yes. (aside) Some of our men may . . . now make place for the outsiders. You can go upstairs. Eh? To chaliye sab. (So let's all go.) Devotee: . . . go see one . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That'll be nice. (break) Devotee (2): . . . *Bhāgavatam* that when there was a God conscious king, there was no natural disasters in the kingdom. Prabhupāda: Yes, because he was guiding the citizens to become God conscious. That is the duty of the king—to see that everyone is following his principles: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . That is secular state: that you may follow any path of religious system, but you must follow it. That is the duty of the state. If you say that you are Hindu, then you must follow the Hindu codes. If you say that you are a Christian, you must follow the Christian codes. But secular state does not mean that you become without religion. Whatever you profess, you do it nicely. That is government's duty to see—don't cheat. I am talking that I am a brāhmaṇa , and I am doing the cobbler's business—that is cheating. If you are doing the cobbler's business, you say that you are a cobbler. Why do you say that, "I am brāhmaṇa "? That is governments business. If you are doing the cobbler's business and professing as brāhmaṇa , you should be punished immediately. Just like a layman, he does not know anything about medical science, and keeping some bottles, false bottles, colored water. And if you declare sincerely that, "I am doctor, medical man," he is a cheater, he should be punished. Similarly, you profess your own way of religion, it doesn't matter, but you must follow that religion properly. *Just like Hindu religion, so who is a Hindu who does not accept Bhagavad*-gītā ? Then how he is Hindu if he does not accept Bhagavad-gītā ? If he says: "I am Hindu, but I don't believe in Bhagavad-gītā ," he should be immediately punished, that either you shall give up your name as Hindu or you must accept it, Bhagavad-gītā . If you say that you are Christian, you must accept Bible, the teachings of Bible. The teachings of Bible, the Ten Commandments, Christ says: "Thou shall not kill," and if you are killing, then you are not a Christian, you are cheater. The Muhammad says you must go five times to the mosque and offer prayers—if you want to kill animals, you must sacrifice it in this mosque. But he is not following that tenet, he is a cheater. It is state's duty is to see that either a Hindu or Muslim or Christian or anyone, he must following the religious principles. That is the duty. That is secular state. Not that because the state is secular you can do whatever you like. That is very irresponsible state. There is no harm, either you become a Christian or Hindu or Muslim. It doesn't matter. But you must follow the principles, then the state will be nice. If a man is strictly following some religious principle, it doesn't matter what religion he is following—then he is a good man. There is no doubt about it. No religion says that, "You become a thief, rascal." Just like in Muhammadan religion intoxication is strictly forbidden. In our Bhagavad-gītā also, the Buddha religion, ahiṁsā– but all the combined instruction of all the other religions you will find in Bhagavad-gītā . You find out this verse, ahiṁsā: *It includes all religious principles, the summary of all religions. Either a Hindu or a Muslim or a Christian—anyone can follow the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . *In Durban I was talking with some scholarly society. So there was a Indian, he belongs to the Ārya*-samāj , so he said that, "Swamījī, you are speaking on the Hindu conception of religion." Hindu conception of religion? When Kṛṣṇa says: *Dehāntara*-prāptir —a child is becoming a boy; *a boy is becoming a young man and a young man becoming an old man—is this Hindu conception? Just see. Rascals. A Muhammadan's child does not become a Muhammadan young man? The people are thinking, "Hindu conception." What do you mean by Hindu conception? When Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), that "You produce sufficient quantity of food grains, and everyone will be happy," is it meant for the Hindus, not for the Muhammadans? In this way study each and every verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . It is applicable to the whole human society. It is not a sectarian thing. Kṛṣṇa cannot speak anything sectarian. He says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the father of everyone." Does the father say anything particularly to one son and not for the others? If the father advises one son, "My dear boy, you do business like this. This is the way," is it meant for that particular boy and not for the others? Each and every verse you study, and you will see that it is meant for the whole human society. When He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), then what is that religion who will not think of God? Is there any religion which does not think of God? If one does not think of God, what kind of religion it is? So Bhagavad-gītā says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me—Kṛṣṇa, or God." So what is the wrong there? If I advise you, "You always think of God," it is a very wrong thing? So you study analytically. What is that verse, ahiṁs . . . amānitvam adambhitvam (BG 13.8). If you become humble and gentle, does it mean that you have to become a Hindu or Muslim? Every person should become humble and gentle, amānitvam adambhitvam . Ahiṁsā , you should not be violent. Every, each and every verse you study, it is not for the Hindus or Muhammadans. Everyone. For the human society. Devotee: Prabhupāda: Read the translation. Devotee: "Humility, pridelessness, nonviolence, tolerance, simplicity . . ." Prabhupāda: So is it for only for the Hindus? This instruction, what is that? Devotee: "Humility, pridelessness . . ." Prabhupāda: Humility. Pridelessness. Devotee: ". . . nonviolence . . ." Prabhupāda: Nonviolence. Devotee: ". . . tolerance . . ." Prabhupāda: Tolerance. Devotee: ". . . simplicity . . ." *Prabhupāda: Simplicity. What? What is that? Is it for the Hindus only? Or Muslims? Or Christians? How they are misguided, just see. And we are preaching this Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. How these Christians, they are taking? Even it is for Hindus, the Bible also teaches the same thing: "Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek." It is not sectarian at all. No religious book is sectarian, but according to the country, man. Just like in the Bible, Christ says: "Thou shalt not kill." So you can understand what kind of men they were—they are very expert in killing. Therefore the first instruction, "Thou shalt not kill" Because those who are sinful, killers, how they will understand about God? *One who is freed from all sinful activities, he can understand God. God is not so cheap. Yeṣāṁ tv anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ . These things have to be understood. I shall remain the most sinful man, and I want to understand God and I want to create God—this is going on. Guest: What is the difference between God, father and guru ? Prabhupāda: God is the supreme father. Guru is your father, your father is your father. God is supreme father. The Christian idea, God is the supreme father: "O God, give us our daily bread." Just like children in a family ask father, "Give me a biscuit," the father supplies. So God is supreme father—for everyone. Is there any difficulty? Is there any difficulty to understand? If God is the supreme father—is there any difficulty? Guest: If I pray "Our Father," then . . . (indistinct) . . . to Godhead? *Prabhupāda: Eh? What? He is the supreme father. He is father's father, grandfather's father, great*-grandfather's father—you go on. That is therefore He is called supreme father. If you stick to your father, there is no harm. Guest: Hindi me ek kahavat hai "guru govind dono khade kako lago pai balihari guru apne govind diyo batae" usme bataya hai pehle guru. (In Hindi there is a saying, " Guru govind dono khade kako lago pai balihari guru apne govind diyo batae ." That is first told to the master.) Prabhupāda: Guru kya batayeg sharab piyo to wo guru sala chor hai. (If the master says: "Drink alcohol," then he is a fraudulent master.) Guest: I am also asking this question . . . *Prabhupāda: First of all find out guru . Guru kaun hai abhi to bataya hai bar*-bar. Tomko jo bhagavan ka vishay batata hai wo guru hai aur nahi to chor hai. Guru to jante nahi nam dene se guru ho jata hai yehi to abhi bataya. Guru ka kam kya hai jo upar me le jayega wo guru hai guru ka matlab hai pocket-mar jo guru tumhara pocket me hai sab cheen liya bus ho gaya guru ye guru nahi guru ka kam hai tumko bachana. (Who is a master? Just now i told you again and again—one who tells you about God is a master, otherwise he is a cheater. I don't know who is a master—just by giving a name, he doesn't become a master. Just now I told what is the master's duty, to take you back home, back to Godhead. The master does not mean a cheater, one who takes away everything from your pocket and becomes a master this, is not a master. A master is one who saves you.) Pradyumna: "One who cannot deliver his dependents from the path of repeated birth and death should never become a spiritual master, a father, a husband, a mother or a worshipable demigod." Prabhupāda: Purport Pradyumna: "There are many spiritual masters, but Ṛṣabhadeva advises that one should not become a spiritual master if he is unable to save his disciple from the path of birth and death. Unless one is a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he cannot save himself from the path of repeated birth and death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti so'rjuna . One can stop birth and death only by returning home, back to Godhead. However, who can go back to Godhead unless he understands the Supreme Lord in truth? Janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ . We have many instances in history illustrating Ṛṣabhadeva's instructions. Śukrācārya was rejected by Bali Mahārāja due to his inability . . ." (break) (end) Conversation -- April 17, 1976, Bombay Indian man: . . . stayed with the devotees in the temple . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: . . . and reached the peace of mind which I was not able to get, whole of my life, I was able to achieve by staying in your temple myself. You know for example I am in my own . . . (break) Prabhupāda: As soon as you speak plain truth they will go away. (laughter) If you go on flattering, then they will stay. What is that? If you make Transcendental Meditation you will increase your sex power and . . . Indian: Rajneesh said that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian: Rajneesh said that. *Devotee: Less blood*-pressure. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Devotee: He said last night, less blood*-pressure, from meditation. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Less blood*-pressure. The difficulty is that we want to be cheated, and there are so many cheaters. There are cheaters—if they find, "Here is a man he can be easily cheated," he takes advantage. But mostly they want to be cheated. As soon as you say that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," he will not take it very nice. "Why shall I surrender?" Is it not? What do you think? "This is too much." That means he wants to be cheated, and if somebody comes, "Why shall you surrender to Kṛṣṇa? You are independent. Why you are taking . . . why you are becoming dependent on God? You are working hard. Why you are giving credit to God." Yes. Big, big sannyāsī has said like this. Indian lady: If they say like that, then they are not sannyāsīs in the real sense of the word. Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. He is a rascal . . . Indian lady: They are not sannyāsīs in the real sense of the word. Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ . This is the description. They do not surrender and they do not teach others to surrender. Then what they are? The formula is there: One who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they are described in this verse as duṣkṛtinaḥ , means most sinful; mūḍhāḥ , rascal; *narādhamāḥ , lowest of the mankind. "No, no. They are sannyāsī , very learned scholar." Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā : they have lost their knowledge by the influence of māyā . Why it is so? Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ . The root cause is that he is in rebellion against God. You'll find this rebellious men 99.9%. Rebellious. "Ha, what is God? I am God." You'll find. If you hold meeting that "Why you are after God? You are God. You will realize by meditate . . . by transcendental meditation you will become God, you are God." In this way if you bluff, thousands of people will come to hear your lecture, and as soon as you say: "God is there, and Kṛṣṇa is God. You surrender to Him," "Oh, these are old fools. Primitive." Kyon, hai ki nahi boliye. Yehi baat sab chal raha hai ki nahi? Aur aap boliye God nahi hai, khub aadmi ayega. Aur agar bol diye ki Krishna God hai to koi nahi ayega. Ye sectarian. (Why, tell me if it's true or not. Aren't these things going on? And if you say God does not exist, a lot of crowd will gather around. But if you say Kṛṣṇa is God then nobody will come. This is sectarian.) This is the position. Ayiye. (Please come.) Real understanding—to hear and to think over the matter. Tad viddhi . Viddhi means understand. *It is already there, Kṛṣṇa says. (break) Why he is wasting his time and money like that? It is already there: tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). Kṛṣṇa says. That means he does not believe in Kṛṣṇa. He is becoming more than Kṛṣṇa. Indian: Also he has collected so many facts. Prabhupāda: Why? What is the use of collecting facts if the fact is already there? Indian (2): Not it is there. Indian: It will be of some use to others, who don't believe. Prabhupāda: Don't believe in the rascals, mūḍhāḥ . So you can try for the mūḍhās . That is another thing. And waste your time. Indian (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But the fact is there already, any intelligent man can understand. Why . . . if they are trying for the mūḍhās , the mūḍhās will never understand. Devotee: Huh. Indian: So which way is better, bhakti mārga or karma mārga ? Prabhupāda: No mārga . Knowledge first of all. Indian: Knowledge and then . . . *Prabhupāda: This is knowledge. Kṛṣṇa begins Bhagavad*-gītā with this knowledge. Because Arjuna showed the symptoms as if he is not in knowledge, therefore He chastised him: "My dear Arjuna, you are talking just like very learned man, but," gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ , "the subject matter which you have taken, this body, and you are lamenting about this body—'The body of my brother will be finished, my this will be finished, this will happen, this will happen'—only on the bodily concept." So this body, either when there is life or when there is no life, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś nānuśocanti paṇḍ . . . "This is not the subject matter of a learned scholar to study this body. It is a lump of matter. Try to understand what is within the body." *This is the beginning of knowledge. One who does not know this knowledge, his knowledge has no value, nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . He is not a paṇḍita . In another place it is confirmed, yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke . One who is accepting this body, as self. Eh? One who is accepting this body . . . the whole world is going on. This is the subject matter of our preaching, that "You are not this body, you are soul. You are part and parcel of God. Do like this." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This is the beginning of understanding. But everyone is under this concept that, "I am this body." "I am Hindu, "I am Muslim," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that." So on this basic principle of ignorance there cannot be any knowledge. You may be research scholar and this scholar, that scholar. This is a no . . . no. It is not the fieldwork of knowledge. (aside:) Hmm. Bring one knife. Indian: Svāmī, svāmī, how to cultivate the concentration, and what is the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Concentration . . . you are doing other businesses with concentration. You are doing work in the office with concentration. You are studying things with concentration. Similarly, you have to bring concentration for understanding what you are. Where is the difficulty? Indian: Concentration towards to higher . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, concentration means if you study your body. Eh? So "What I am?" This subject matter you study, analyze your body. It is very easy, what is this body. First of all your breathing. Study what is his breathing. You'll say . . . you'll understand it is nothing but air. Do you think that breathing is life? Because this breathing, it is air, so when the breathing is stopped you can replace it by some mechanical arrangement. It is coming through the nose. But does it mean you can bring life? Hmm? So you study your breathing, you study your blood, you study your bone, you study your everything, whatever you have got, this combination—you'll find no life there. Then you understand that life is different from this material combination. This is concentration. You can do. It is very easy to analyze your whole body, and you'll find that that there is no life in these material ingredients, that life is different from this bodily combination. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā (BG 7.5). These material ingredients, they are inferior, aparā . There is a superior, superior thing, itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā . What is that? Jīva-bhūtā , that is living entity. So you can study your own thing, if you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Now Kṛṣṇa says like this, what is your objection? It is Hindu conception or Muslim conception? It is for everyone. Indian: Concentration is just . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian: A child's concentration is just, the other . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Hmm. You cannot cut it? Devotee: The knife is not very sharp . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: The knife is not very sharp. Indian: Hmm, that is not the way to cut it. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian: Take out this slice, some slice . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian: . . . and cut it into two pieces. Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know how to cut. One who knows, let him cut. Indian: Take out a full slice. Prabhupāda: Thoda dikha do. (Show him a little bit.) Indian: . . . (indistinct Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). (laughter) Devotee (2): This is sharp. Prabhupāda: Everything requires a guru; otherwise he remains a fool, rascal, that's all. Do do, usko do. (Give give, give it to him.) Indian: . . .(indistinct) . . . nahi hoga. (is not possible.) Prabhupāda: Prasad ka zyada box hai. Do na, do do. (There are many boxes of prasadam , give to him.) Hmm. Ab dekhiye . . . (Now, you see . . .) In every item you require a guru . And to understand Kṛṣṇa, or God, everyone is independent. (laughter) Just see the foolishness. Yata mata tata patha . "Ah, you consider about your own God. It doesn't require any guru ." This foolishness is going on. For cutting a mango he requires a guru , and to understand Kṛṣṇa, he doesn't require a guru . This foolishness is going on. And Kṛṣṇa says: Kṛṣṇa says you have to understand, like this. But everyone is thinking, "Why shall I go to guru?" (aside) Aur kato. (Cut some more.) What is this? Take this. Oh, that's all . . . Indian: Vegetable . . . (indistinct Hindi) Child: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Devotee (2): She just left. Indian: Ācchā . Prabhupāda: Why left? Indian: Ghar me kuch log aaye. (Some guests have come home.) Prabhupāda: Just see how he has cut. It requires a guru . (laughter) Here, this morning, I was citing that a brahmacārī should be very expert, dakṣā . Was I not explaining? Devotee: Behavior. Prabhupāda: So if you do not become expert, then there is deficiency. (aside) No, distribute this. First of all finish that, then . . . keep it, give everyone. One piece, everyone. Devotee: We cut it up smaller. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: For everyone, a little smaller. *Prabhupāda: No small. Give him. No, no, that's right. Hmm. Sab cheez Bhagavad*-Gita me hai. Usko theek-theek se padhe aur usme concentrate kare to sab gyan ho jayega. (All knowledge is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . One must read it scrutinizingly and concentrate on it, then all knowledge will come.) But if he wants to remain a fool, rascal, what can be done? Every direction is there, and it is given by Kṛṣṇa for this purpose, that when He will be absent, this is left for their study; *they will get knowledge. Thoda uske haat me pani do. Idhar aao, neeche jane ka zaroorat nahi, idhar dega pani. Okhan balti me jal aache? Dala. (Put a little water on his hands. Come here. No no, there is no need to go down, he will give water here. Is there water in that bucket? Put some.) We are simply canvassing that "You understand Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and you get all knowledge." This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Haat dho ke aao . . . (Wash your hands and come . . .) This is our mission. We are not manufacturing anything. That is not our purpose. As others are manufacturing the ways of realization, we don't do that. This is not our behavior, because we know we are personally defective. We are all fools. But what I am speaking, that is not defective—that is perfect, because we are speaking Kṛṣṇa's word. Hmm. That is not defective, that is perfect. So we are teaching our preachers that, "Don't say anything defective. Simply say what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. That is perfect." And whatever little success is there, only on account of this, that we don't manufacture anything, we simply present what Kṛṣṇa has said. Some imaginary . . . ek-ek sab manufacture karke bade-bade sab swami, yogi ye sab jata hai. Apna time bhi barbad karta hai aur doosro ka time bhi barbad karta hai. Ye sab chal raha hai. (Each one manufactures their own, the big big swamis , yogis go and preach. They waste their time and also waste the time of others. All these things are going on.) If the tree already is there, why should we manufacture and research? What is this research? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There are millions and millions of living entities, and they are making research in the laboratory how to produce life from matter. Just see. How rascaldom is going on. What credit you will get? Suppose you, in the laboratory, you produce one life from matter. Suppose. You have not done it, suppose you do it. Then what is credit to you? There are already millions and millions of lives. We are overcrowded. (laughter) And this rascal is trying to produce a life in the laboratory. Just see, how rascal they are. Indian: We may be thinking only God can produce this, but . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from God, but what credit you'll get if already there are millions and millions of living entities all around? What credit you will get, suppose in the test tube you create one life in the laboratory? Who will give you credit? Only the fools and rascals will give. I will not give. We know that already there are so many lives. So we give that person who has created so many lives. Why shall I give you credit? Hmm? There are millions and millions of goldmines, eh? So I shall give the credit to Him, or a rascal producing a little piece of gold I shall give him credit? If gold producing is so important that one who has created millions and millions of mines of gold . . . Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: . . . he is to take credit . . . (aside) Oh, come on . . . (laughter) He is to take credit, or one who has produced a little piece of gold, he is to take credit? Boliye , whom I shall give credit? Last year I went to South America, er, Africa. In the Johannesburg city there are so many goldmines. In the city, so many goldmines. So who has created this gold? (aside) Thank you. So many goldmines I have seen. And this is in one planet, there are millions of planets there are also goldmines. Who has created this gold? Somebody has created. So whom shall I give credit? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . or this? Indian (2): I think by jñāna mārga they are working with Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: What is jñāna ? If they do not take the jñāna given by Kṛṣṇa, what is jñāna*-mārga ? It is ajñāna-mārga . Kṛṣṇa is giving you jñāna —you refuse to take it—and what is your jñāna-mārga ? Indian (2): As your disciple knows, they were spreading . . . Prabhupāda: No disciple or your disciple. I say that if there is jñāna already, so if you don't accept it, then what is your jñāna mārga then? Indian (2): No, they accept the jñāna , and then they utilize it . . . Indian: What is the meaning of jñāna ? Indian (2): Huh? Indian: What is the definition of jñāna ? Indian (2): No, I mean what is the fact? Prabhupāda: So what do you think, fact? Indian (2): After seeing the mountain, they found that it, how the mountain is built, and they have created cement. So we can build houses, just like Kṛṣṇa's agent. Likewise I humbly think that in jñāna mārga they seem to work, those who are doing it. Prabhupāda: To manufacture cement? Indian (2): No. Manufacturing anything, they are also going with Kṛṣṇa, going with the nature. They are not going against the nature. And we, or one people are going against nature, and so we are suffering. If we are sick, doctor advises to go with the nature. Prabhupāda: (aside) Thank you. Hmm. Jñāna mārga , if you actually in knowledge, that is jñāna mārga . But if you not in knowledge, that is not jñāna mārga . Indian (2): (several talking simultaneously) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian: Knowledge of the self is jñāna mārga . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the first knowledge. Indian: It is not in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all you have to know what you are. Because you are trying to adjust things to mitigate your distress and increasing your happiness. This is the struggle. Everyone is struggle for minimizing distress or making zero distress and getting happiness. But do you think in this world this is obtained, this stage is achieved, that there is no distress, only happiness? Then what is your jñāna mārga ? If there is still distress, then what is your jñāna mārga ? That means ajñāna mārga . You are trying, making research, to banish distress and get happiness, but if you have not gained that position, then where is your jñāna mārga ? Who has obtained that position that there is no distress, simply happiness? Is there anybody here? Everyone says: "Oh, I am so much distressed." Then where is jñāna mārga ? Indian: But there's nothing wrong in enquiring into the . . . Prabhupāda: No, you can waste your time . . . Indian: . . . into the nature. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another foolishness. That is another foolishness. If you search out in your own way, moghāśā mogha*-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). If you do not know the way, then what is the use? You will be baffled. You will be baffled. Suppose in the airplane, if you do not know which side I shall go to Calcutta, then you will be baffled. He must know which side—north, east, west, the latitude, longitude—then the pilot is expert. Suppose I am on the plane, and the pilot is there. Without pilot we are all bewildered. We do not know. Suppose if somehow or other on the plane the pilot is finished, then see what is your condition. Your all jñāna mārga will be finished. Indian (2): You can't go then. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So without pilot there is no jñāna mārga . Indian: Ye gyan marga do prakar ka bataya jata hai kya? (Is this path of knowledge described as two types?) Prabhupāda: Gyan marg do prakar ka, ek mūrkha mārga hota hai, gyan marg hota hai. Jo gyan marg me hai nahi vo moorkha marg me hai bus. Agar moorkh marg ko koi gyan marg samajh le to do number ka moorkh hai. Double mūrkha hai. This is going on. Gyan marg ka arth hota hai jo gyani hai, usko baat se chalo to gyan marg chalega. (The path of knowledge is of two types. One is the fool's path and the other is the knowledge path. One who is not in the path of knowledge is on the fool's path, that's all. If someone considers the fool's path as the path of knowledge then he is number two fool, he is a double fool. This is going on. The meaning of the knowledge path is when one follows the words of the realized soul, that is the path of knowledge.) Indian: Aeroplane kisne banaya tha? (Who built the airplane?) Prabhupāda: Jo banaya, aeroplane me agar kisi tarah se wo pilot hai, khatam ho jata hai . . . (Whoever made it, if somehow the pilot of the airplane is destroyed . . .) Indian: Aeroplane banane wala to gyan marg me hi hota hai na? (The one who built the airplane, he is in the path of knowledge, right?) *Prabhupāda: Aise to chidiya bhi bana leta hai apna nest, uska bhi gyan hai. Wo bhi janta hai ek chota*-chota . . .(indistinct) . . . le aa karke kaise sundar ek nest bana leta hai. Aap dekha hai, Babui, ek pakshi hoti hai wo apna kaisa ghar bana leti hai. Aisa gyan chidiya me hai, cheeti me hai, wo aap se kuch farak nahi hai. "Aahar, nidra, bhaya, maithun" ye sab gyan sab me hai. Ye na samajhiye ki ye gyan aap hi me hai, cement bana ke skyscraper bana diya. Wo gyan sab me hai, apna - apna aavashyata ke anusar sab apna bana lete hain. Wo gyan marg nahi hai. (In that sense, even a bird makes it's own nest, it also has knowledgeable. Even the bird knows, how to gather small small twigs, and makes a beautiful nest out of it. Have you seen how the Babui bird builds its house? The birds have got this kind of knowledge, even an ant has got it. That's not different from us. Aahar nidra bhaya maithun , all this knowledge is present with everyone. Don't think that only you have got this knowledge of making cement and building a skyscraper. This knowledge is there in everyone. According to their requirements they build it. That is not the path of knowledge.) Tad vijñānam, it is said. The ordinary jñāna is not recommended. Tad vijñānam. Viśeṣa jñāna, or scientific knowledge, that is wanted. Aur aisa gyan, chor ka bhi gyan hota hai kis tarah se chori karna hai. Jo chori karta hai wo moorkh nahi hota hai, bada gyani hota hai, kis tarah se chori karna hota hai. Usko gyani bola jayega? Bada accha gyani chor hai ji, isko PhD card de do. Ye gyan nahi hai (laughter) Etad jñānam. Just see what is jñānam. Eh. Kisko gyan bolta hai suniye. ( And similar knowledge even a thief has, how to steal. And a thief who steals is not a fool, he is very intelligent, he knows how to steal. So can a thief be called realized? Very nice realized thief sir, award him a PhD title. This is not knowledge. Etad jñānam. Just see what is jñānam. Listen, who is actually called a knowledgeable person.) Amānitvam adambhitvam , in the Thirteenth Chapter you will find, amānitvam adambhitvam (BG 13.8). Indian: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam , ācāryopāsanaṁ . Hmm. Read it. Devotee: There's five verses together. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: *Prabhupāda: Adhyātma*-jñāna-nityatvaṁ . Then? Devotee: Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: Etaj jñānam iti proktam . . . Prabhupāda: Etaj jñānam . This is jñāna . Or all rascals. Indian: Etaj jñānam , vijñānaṁ . Prabhupāda: Ye jñānam . Or all rascaldom. Etaj jñānam . . . Devotee: Iti proktam . Prabhupāda: . . . iti proktam . This is accepted knowledge. And then? Devotee: Ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā . Prabhupāda: Ah. Except this, all are ajñānam , all rascaldom. The cement manufacturer is a rascal, and the atom bomb rascal—all rascal. And here is jñāna . Etaj jñānam . Everything is there. Etaj jñānam . Then? Yad ato 'nyathā ajñānaṁ . Is it not? Devotee: Ha. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: Etaj jñānam iti proktam ajñānaṁ yad ato . . . Prabhupāda: Anyathā . Indian: Anyathā . Prabhupāda: Iti proktam , it is accepted this is jñāna . Yad anyathā ajñānaṁ . Indian: What was going on just now, for a long time . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian: . . . was just meditation, without knowledge, which actually . . . Prabhupāda: This is meditation. Indian: No, which was actually speculation. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian: Meditation with knowledge, that becomes devotion. Prabhupāda: Yes, knowledge you have to receive from the person who knows. That is knowledge. Indian: If I question someone . . . Prabhupāda: If you manufacturer knowledge, that is ignorance. Indian: So if it was just meditation but without the air of knowledge . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, meditation means . . . Indian: . . . it was just speculation . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Meditation . . . Indian: . . . and we were just speculating in different directions. *Prabhupāda: . . . that is defined, that dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena (SB 12.13.1). Dhyānāva , this is meditation. So this is meditation, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). Yogī , they want to see Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ (BG 18.61), Īśvara is there, so yoga means to find out that īśvaraḥ within the heart. That is real yoga . Indian: The effort was there, but they were just speculating. Prabhupāda: No, effort, any effort, if you do not follow . . . Indian: Yes . . . Prabhupāda: . . . the instruction of higher authority, this is useless effort. Simply waste of time. You cannot become by your own effort a medical man. That is not possible. You have to go to the medical college, you have to learn under the medical man—then you become a medical man. Otherwise, if you sit down at home and meditate on medical science, what you will get? You will simply waste your time. First of all know what is jñānam . The first jñāna is amānitvam . What is the meaning is there? Devotee: Humility. Prabhupāda: Humility. The first requisition is humility that, "I have no knowledge; I have to go to somebody who has knowledge." This is humility. And if you think, "I have got very advanced knowledge. Why shall I go to anyone?" there is no entrance in knowledge. He is finished in the beginning. " amānitvam adambhitvam ahimsa shanti aarjavam " everything is there. This is gyanam , etad gyanam proktam agyanam yad anyatha . And as soon as we debate these fools think we are in agyanam , foolish. So while gyanam is there, shy we should become agyanam . Prabhupāda: Yes, ārati . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Aarti chal rahi hai mandir me, sab aaiyega. ( Arati is going on in the temple, everyone should come.) Devotee: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Devotees: (offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Yes, also. (break) Everyone should become a preacher. Devotee: Sometime we should go to Bihar also? Prabhupāda: Why not? Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (Caitanya Bhāgavata). (aside) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- April 20, 1976, Melbourne (Conversation & TV Interview with Mike Barron) Prabhupāda: But still, he did it. Arjuna, in the beginning, thought that he should not kill. Come on. Devotee (1): He's ready downstairs. Prabhupāda: Huh? (break) . . . can you think about the living pulse which is beating, the heart, heart failure? Why don't you bring it into palpitation again? If you study that air . . . air . . . air you bring artificially. Push it. Why don't you do it if you are so great scientist? Is it very difficult? So in anything, air is fi . . . just like in the tire tube. Air is finished. Push it, air, it is all right. So do you think it is air, the palpitation? You are so foolish? And passing as a scientist? Air can be replaced. It is difficult? Just like tire tube air, a huge quantity to work. You immediately, within a second . . . so why do you say: "Now, now the breathing is stopped"? Breathing is stopped, air stopped. What is their answer? Hmm? Gurukṛpā: They have no answer. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The cells have died. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The cells have died. Prabhupāda: Seller? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tiny cells in the body have died. Prabhupāda: Then don't say that, "Breathing is stopped. Therefore he is dead." Don't talk nonsense. Why do you talk like that, "Now breathing is stopped. He's dead"? Talk in right language if you are scientist. Why you are talking like that, "The air is stopped. The breathing is stopped. Therefore dead"? That's not a fact. So you are stating which is not a fact. Why you claim that you are scientist? That is the challenge. Hmm? Then again you come to the blood. What is blood? Red water. So if you say that this, that, so many jugglery of words, so manufacture. Water mix with the red color and give these, these so many rascal things. Gurukṛpā: They don't have artificial blood. I don't think they can make artificial blood. Prabhupāda: Nothing. Artificial blood . . . superficially it is red water. So if red water is the life, then why you are spoiling so much blood? Keep it scientifically and push it into the dead body. I say it is, that way, it is the red water, nothing but red water. Urine is white water. I am coming to the five elements—air, water. Then what is this bone? Earth. You can manufacture bone, hard bone, with earth or wood or something plastic. So we are analyzing the combination of the body, so everything you can manufacture. But where is the life you can manufacture? Why do you say? That is our challenge. All the ingredients of the body you can manufacture exactly like that. Ultimately you can give the beauty also of the woman or the man. But where is life? Bring life by all these things. Then I will say that you are scientist. Otherwise cheater, simply bluffing people. This thing should be stopped. Where you get the information that this, from matter life is possible. "In future." But in future . . . in inceptive condition you show something. Just like formerly they were flying balloons. So because they were flying, they could say that "Future we shall fly a big city." And in the history we can see that that is not impossible, because in the inceptive condition or initiative condition we see that big things can be flown. But here you cannot even prepare a ant. You have not been able to prepare even a small ant, germ. Show me. So why do you say: "In future I shall do it"? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of these creature don't even have hearts. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of the insects don't even have hearts. Prabhupāda: And how do you say? They have everything. You have no intelligence to understand. Everything, all anatomic physiology is there, even the small full stop, you cannot see even, microbe. That is God's creation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mean to say . . . Prabhupāda: I have seen very minute, walking very . . . exactly like a big . . . Gurukṛpā: In Vṛndāvana, when we were staying at Bon's place, there was big colony of ants. Ants, thousands of them. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got all the sense, all the sympathy. For eating, sleeping, mating, they have got all intelligence. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What I mean to say is, physiologically speaking, at least from biological viewpoint, some of these creatures don't even have hearts. They're much easier to manufacture, the parts of their bodies. *Prabhupāda: You say there is no heart just like you say no soul. That is your version. I say that when he is doing everything like a human being, he has got everything. It is your insufficient knowledge that you say that . . . just like you say there is no soul. But that is your insufficient knowledge. That's not the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna ( BG 18.61). When Īśvara is in everyone's heart, how you can . . . hṛd-deśe. How you say there is no heart? That is nonsense, another nonsense. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So this is speaking of the material heart. Prabhupāda: Material, spiritual, you do not know anything. You don't talk. Better you become silent. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe , specifically said: "Within the heart." The . . . even a germlike, what is called, atom, less than atom, there is heart. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says hṛd-deśe ? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe . Every living entity. Prabhupāda: Eh? And you say there is no . . . you are our student. You are saying there is no heart. That means you do not carefully read. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, that's there, but is that the heart of the soul or the heart of the gross material body? Prabhupāda: Then . . . heart there is, as you have got heart. What you are? The same constitution. Hari-śauri: In the Kaṭha Upaniṣad it describes how they're sitting side by side. Prabhupāda: The same constitution of the body. Otherwise there is no question of heart. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You've just challenged the whole field of biology also. *Prabhupāda: Then what is the . . . I say they're nonsense, rascals. They say that there is no . . . and what is their knowledge? We don't give any value to their knowledge. Kṛṣṇa says clearly, hṛd*-deśe 'rjuna. And this body is just like a yantra , machine. So as machine means . . . moving machine means it must have wheel, it must have sitting place . . . everything is there, machine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would mean that even the plants and trees also have a heart. Prabhupāda: Everything. That is proved scientifically. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved. There is a part. What is that? Spi . . .? Begins the word, the machine, the record? Devotee (2): Spirograph. Prabhupāda: Yes, the word begins with s. Spirograph or like that. You do not know? They smear with black, what is called, carbon, and the fine . . . Devotee (2): Cardiograph. Prabhupāda: Cardiograph, like that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cardiograph. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sensation. Prabhupāda: No, no, the machine is called some special name. Hari-śauri: The same idea as cardiograph. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Spectograph? Prabhupāda: Spectograph, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Has to do with light? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it records how it is moving, how it is going up and down. So that has been proved. The machine is hanged in the tree, and the tree is cut, and immediately makes a mark. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has discovered the machine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Generally at least, though, we associate the heart with an organ that simply pumps blood and oxygen throughout the body, but the biologists contend that certain bodies and certain species of life, they have no such circulatory system of pumping blood or even oxygen. Prabhupāda: Why not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, that's the contention at present. Prabhupāda: Hmm. But we can take that . . . Gurukṛpā: Like a worm. If you cut a worm in half, both parts of the worm will go on living. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurukṛpā: You take one worm, you cut it, and both parts will go on living. You cut it in three places, and it will all live. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the wrong there? Gurukṛpā: Then there's three hearts? Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately manufactured as soon as the living entity enters. Their chemical composition is that, that even you cut, a living entity can enter. The living entity enters through the semina of the father in the womb of the mother, the same process. Unless the living entity enters, the body does not form. It is matter only. When the living entity enters, then the formation takes place according to his mind. What do they know about it? Hmm? Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). The matter simply is set up according to the desire. Just like we have constructed this big house according to my desire. The matter has not taken shape like this big house automatically. I am the proprietor. I desire, 'Let the rooms be like this'. Similarly, the material elements, the semina of the father and the ova of the mother mix, it creates a suitable, what is called, cement, and now according to the desire of the living being he'll settle. Not that the cement automatically becomes a room or pipe or this or that. Cement is cement, the same thing—earth, water, air, fire. By mixture it becomes so convenient that it takes a shape and becomes a different body—a different body for the man, a different body for the animal . . . (guest enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you. A little crooked. (laughter) Thank you. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Mike Barron. He is from one of the television stations here, and he wants to do an interview on you for the news tonight, which is seen by many, many thousands of people here in Melbourne. Prabhupāda: You have seen this news? Mike Barron: Yes, I've seen this morning's. Fairly similar, just to talk about the movement. Are you happy with the way it's going here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mike Barron: Just along those lines. Gurukṛpā: What do you think of that article? Mike Barron: A bit facetious. A bit facetious. I didn't like it very much. Prabhupāda: You liked? Mike Barron: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Mike Barron: Er, a bit facetious. They had a funny way of doing it. Prabhupāda: Funny way, but it is very serious. It requires little intelligence . . . Devotee (3): Like to sit there? Prabhupāda: . . . that this body is a lump of matter, and the consciousness, or the living pulse, that is different. Can you prove that they are not? Eh? Mike Barron: No. Prabhupāda: Then how do you say it is joking? Mike Barron: Er, no, I . . . the actual context. Prabhupāda: The context is that if you cannot separate the living force, or the soul, from the body, then you are on the same position as the dog is thinking, "I am the body. I am a big dog. I can bark very loudly." And he's showing his capacity. And if we are talking big, big assembly, and in the same conception of life, that "I am this body," then where is difference? Mike Barron: I cannot argue against that. Prabhupāda: That is the point. That is the point. We have to understand this point. If we want to become more than the dog, you must find out in which sense we are more than the dog. That sense is understanding . . . that is . . . in Sanskrit word it is said, ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman. I am not this matter." That is knowledge. Actually knowledge begins from that point, that, "I am not this body." Just like a big 747 plane is running on, but there is the intelligent pilot. If somebody says: "There is no pilot. It is flying automatically. The machine is supported," is it a correct? Mike Barron: No. Does Kṛṣṇa consciousness make you aware of this, though? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one understands that this big machine is useless without the pilot. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Mike Barron: How long . . . it's hard to say. How long does it take, though . . . Prabhupāda: It takes immediately, provided a man is intelligent. Just like the same principle: If a man is intelligent, he can immediately understand that the machine is not important, the pilot is important. Mike Barron: The same with the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you take this body as everything, then analyze part by part. Just I was talking about breathing. People generally say: "The breathing is stopped; therefore the man is dead." And that can be replaced, breathing. Breathing? What is this breathing? It is simply air. Just like in tire tube, when the air is lost, you can immediately replace it and take it into work. Similarly, if breathing is lost, therefore the man is . . . you can replace it. You are big, big scientist. You replace it. Just find out some machine which will "hans! phans!" just like bellows. That is not possible. Mike Barron: Can you become aware of this without Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Can you, without . . . Prabhupāda: No. That awareness means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We can describe it in different language, but the real thing is that we must be aware of this thing. Mike Barron: So your teachings go much further than just being part of the Kṛṣṇa movement. Everyone, whether they like it or not, are indirectly concerned with it. Prabhupāda: The . . . our movement is an educative movement to understand the real position of living condition, and then we act. Just like if you know your real position, and if you act intelligently, then it is nice. If you do not know what is your position, what is the use of your education and acting? You do not know your real position, that is ignorance. And that is dog mentality. The dog cannot understand that he is not body, he is something else. But human intelligence is advanced. If they do not try to understand this fact, then what is the difference between him and dog? Mike Barron: None. Prabhupāda: That is being misused. There is no institution, no university, no education system to understand what is that living force without which it is a lump of matter. Where is that education? Mike Barron: What do you call that force? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mike Barron: What do you call the force? Prabhupāda: That is the soul, or consciousness. The same thing: the pilot. The pilot may be a small man, and the airship may be very gigantic. You can make still more. But the pilot is the same. So the body may be elephant or a small ant, but the pilot is the same. That is real understanding. Mike Barron: Just getting off that, can I ask why you've come to Australia again? Is it . . . Prabhupāda: I have already explained, that this is my mission, to educate people to understand himself. They are under this misconception that, "Every one of us, we are this body." That is misconception. You must know who is within the body. That is real education. Mike Barron: And how long will . . . you'll continue this until . . . Prabhupāda: Well . . . Mike Barron: . . . until you die. *Prabhupāda: The knowledge is already there in the Vedic literature, but there was no discussion, at least in the Western countries. So I am trying to . . . we have got so many books, eighty*-four books, writing on this science. (aside) Show him our books. They are being accepted by high learned circles. (break) . . . written not jokingly. It is a great science. Mike Barron: Where do you . . . you might think this unusual. Where does it come from, though? Prabhupāda: The *Vedas* , Vedic literature. Mike Barron: What goes into this? *Prabhupāda: Vedas . Vedic literature: Sāma, Yajur, Ṛg, Atharva, Upaniṣad , then Bhāgavata , Bhagavad*-gītā , so many. There is no cultivation of this knowledge. Devotee (3): If we could . . . if we put the stool up here, and then you can sit on facing that way, Mike? Mike Barron: Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'll do it. Prabhupāda: How people are advanced? They should take very seriously. Devotee (3): So he can sit and face that way. Gurukṛpā: Maybe you can take one picture of our books when you go. Mike Barron: Yes, well, due to problems that do occur from time to time, we . . . you know, what people consider to be the false guru . Is that all right with you? Prabhupāda: Yes, any . . . guru means the teacher. So if the teacher does not give you real knowledge, then he is not teacher, he is cheater. Mike Barron: And there are some around. *Prabhupāda: Almost everyone, because they do not know what is the subject matter of teaching. The subject matter of teaching is beginning with this understanding, that life is different from matter. That is the beginning, A*-B-C-D. So if your basic knowledge is wrong, then what is the use of going further? It is all false knowledge. Mike Barron: So there are a lot of these people who do that, false knowledge? Prabhupāda: That is . . . that you have to consider, that it is a fact. And the yoga system is meant . . . this is the real yoga system, that because we are on the false understanding, identifying with the body, so the bodily function should be controlled, and concentration or focus should be placed, "What is that living condition?" That is yoga , or meditation, to find out what is the real . . . analyze this body and find out where is the living pulse. And that is real yoga system: to control the senses. The senses are working. Now we are getting knowledge through the senses. How to get this knowledge of the living force? That, a mechanical arrangement, that is called yoga system. Cameraman: Somebody move up. *Mike Barron: Yes. (aside to cameraman) Do you have a two*-shot, or do you want to get that afterwards? Cameraman: Yeah, I'll get to that. You're going to have to keep out my front as much as you can. Don't . . . (talks about filming) Okay, Mike. Go three from now. Mike Barron: Can you tell us a little bit about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what it does mean? Prabhupāda: Just like the living force within the body, that is the most important thing, similarly, throughout this creation, cosmic manifestation, Kṛṣṇa is the most important thing. Mike Barron: Are you happy with the way the Kṛṣṇa movement is progressing throughout the world, and particularly throughout Australia? Prabhupāda: Well, we are progressing very slow because the subject matter is so difficult that even big, big scientists, big, big professors, they are puzzled. So you cannot expect. But those who are fortunate and . . . they are understanding. So this progress, we cannot expect a mass people will understand immediately, but if one person understands, he can act very tremendously to educate the people on this matter. Just like the example is that to illuminate the sky it does not require millions of stars. One moon is sufficient. Mike Barron: What is the biggest obstacle for people to overcome? Prabhupāda: Their dullness. They are not being educated, but they are putting into the darkness of ignorance more and more. That is going on in the name of education. Mike Barron: But some people are confused by the number of false gurus . Prabhupāda: So why you bring guru ? You try to understand yourself. If you are fool, then what guru will do? Mike Barron: But there are people . . . Prabhupāda: You should be intelligent. You should know that what is the subject matter of knowledge. Why do you accept so many fools and rascals as guru ? First of all you know what is the subject matter of knowledge. Just like if you want to become a carpenter, you should go to an expert carpenter. If you want to be a medical man, here, if you want to become medical man, you must approach the medical college. So first of all, what do you want? You do not know what you want. Therefore you get so many cheaters. You do not know what you want. Mike Barron: You do agree that there are many people who do try and cheat? Prabhupāda: No, first of all you agree that there is someone who cheats. First of all you agree that you do not know what is the aim of your life. Do you agree or not? Mike Barron: I think I know. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mike Barron: I think I know. Prabhupāda: You know? What is the aim? Tell me. What is the aim of human life? Tell me. We shall accept you as guru . Tell me. What is the aim of life? Mike Barron: To be happy in myself. Prabhupāda: That, how dog is happy? Therefore I have said, "Dog mentality." You do not know what is happiness. You know simply by barking you'll be happy. That's all. Mike Barron: Well, how do I find out? Prabhupāda: No, what is happiness? Do you know what is happiness? Mike Barron: Perhaps not. How do I find out that? Prabhupāda: Find out . . . but then why you are asking about guru ? You do not know what is happiness. Mike Barron: Can you tell me? Prabhupāda: Yes. Your happiness is that you do not like to die, you die. That is your distress. You do not like to become old man; *you become old. So that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . This is unhappiness. *Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). That is intelligence that, "I do not want death. Why death comes upon me? Where is my happiness?" This knowledge will lead you to understand what is happiness. But if you remain ignorant like animal, you do not know what is happiness, and if you think, "The dog is having sex; I'll have sex. That is happiness," then where is the difference, dog mentality and your mentality? Mike Barron: And Kṛṣṇa consciousness can help me attain this? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He knows, "This dog's mentality of eating, sleeping, sex and defense is not my happiness. My real distress is that I do not want to die, I am being forced to die. So how to escape from this position?" That is happiness. Mike Barron: Thank you. Gurukṛpā: Jaya Prabhupāda. Mike Barron: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Devotee (3): . . . which is a topic on which they interview many personalities like yourself. And this is showing at seven o'clock tonight on television. There'll be many, many people watching it. Prabhupāda: Take that book. Take his book. No, I . . . (tape of Prabhupāda plays in background) (laughter) Mike Barron: I'll think about that. Prabhupāda: That is the lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (background talking as people move about) (break) Sixty, seventy, and another, small books. Sixty books like this. Hari-śauri: She's asking how many do we sell. Prabhupāda: Sell? That I have given, estimate. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With our standing orders we sell them all. Carol Jarvis: Oh, no, I mean, how many would you sell a day? For instance, how many of each book would you sell a day? Would it be thousands a day? Gurukṛpā: Yeah, maybe. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, sometimes tens of thousands. Prabhupāda: Twenty thousand dollar daily. Gurukṛpā: Minimum. Prabhupāda: Minimum. Sometimes we go to fifty thousand dollars. Carol Jarvis: A day? Prabhupāda: Day. All over the world. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Devotees are working very hard to spread this consciousness, knowledge. (background talking) Prabhupāda: Religious book, selling daily so much, huge amount, that is unique in the history. Carol Jarvis: Are they sold mainly in the Western countries? Prabhupāda: All over the world, especially in Europe, America. Carol Jarvis: In Europe. Hari-śauri: We even had some book orders just recently from Russia. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are also inquiring. Gurukṛpā: Every university in America takes complete book. Every book Śrīla Prabhupāda writes, there is standing order—Oxford, Princeton, Harvard, UCLA, University of California . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of the leading professors also have written very favorable reviews, citing these . . . Prabhupāda: Where is that book, Professor Judah's book? Hare Krishna and Counterculture . (background talking) Carol Jarvis: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: You have read that? Carol Jarvis: No, I haven't. Prabhupāda: Oh, he has written big book, Professor Judah. He has very much appreciated. And he has given statistics and everything, very scholarly book. Hare Krishna and Counterculture . Carol Jarvis: Ah, yes. Yes, I have read it. (background conversation among cameramen; machine makes whirring sound) Prabhupāda: It is breathing? (laughter) (more background conversation, machines whirring, etc.) Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, what prompted you to start the Kṛṣṇa movement? Prabhupāda: Well, the scientists make research. One does wrong thing to do that. So our process is to carry out the order of the higher authorities. So my Guru Mahārāja, my spiritual master, asked me to do this. Therefore . . . Carol Jarvis: But you led a rather normal life—before this you were married; you were a businessman. Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: What made you change suddenly? Prabhupāda: By this association. Just like we are holding meeting, and so many boys, girls, they come. If somebody is capturing the idea, he makes further progress. Carol Jarvis: What was it that was different about your way of thinking? Prabhupāda: It is not my way of thinking. It is nobody's way of thinking; it is the natural way of life. Just like you eat. It is not a way of thinking; it is natural demand of the body. Carol Jarvis: Well, why is it, can I ask, perhaps, that the Kṛṣṇa movement is the natural way of living against, say, other religions, other faiths? Prabhupāda: It is not the question of religion or faith. It is the necessity. This already I have said, that you are hungry, and you require some food. It is not a way of thinking that, "I am hungry. I require . . ." It is the urge. You are hungry, and you require to eat. Similarly, people are making so many arrangements to become happy. So this is also another way, but this is the right way. Carol Jarvis: You have now thousands and thousands of devotees all around the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: A lot of them are very young people coming into the movement. Do you think they really understand what they're going into when they join the Kṛṣṇa movement? Prabhupāda: So if, if . . . at least they understand something about it. Otherwise how they are sticking to this movement? They are intelligent boy. They are coming from respectable family, educated. Why they should go after me unless they have got something? That you can ask them. There are so many. All of them are young men. Carol Jarvis: They're forced to lead a very spartan way of life, though, aren't they? Why is this necessary? Prabhupāda: If you want real happiness . . . that I have already explained. Real happiness—to become free from the natural material laws, birth, death, old age and disease. This is real happiness. Suppose you are arranging for your happiness, and all of a sudden death comes. Then where is happiness? So how you can check? So the real impediment of our happiness is stated: birth, death, old age and disease. So if you want real happiness, then you have to first of all make arrangement that you'll not die or you'll not take birth, you'll not become old, you'll not be diseased. Just like insurance. They make insurance of life. So where is your insurance for these things? You do not want to die, but you are forced to die. Where is insurance? This is insurance, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Carol Jarvis: It's an insurance for what? An after . . . Prabhupāda: No more . . . no more death, no more birth, no more old age, no more disease. This is insurance. And therefore it is the primary necessity for becoming happy. Otherwise you have made arrangement very nicely, and if all of a sudden you die, then where is your happiness? Carol Jarvis: Do you think the type of life that your devotees must lead . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: . . . is in fact a happy one—getting up very early in the morning . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it is. It is. Just like if you are suffering from some ailments, so you have to follow some rules and regulation so that you may be cured. Do the doctor not prescribe so many things that, "You don't eat like this. You don't do this. You do this"? There are so many don'ts and do's. So if you really want to become happy, you have to follow some don't's and do's. Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, can I ask you how old you are now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: How old? Prabhupāda: I am eighty years old. *Carol Jarvis: And do you think the Kṛṣṇa movement has helped you? Are you a fit man for an eighty*-year-old? Prabhupāda: At least all my contemporaries have gone away. (laughter) All my young friends and childhood friends, there are no more existing, my relatives. And . . . so I am moving still all over the world. Carol Jarvis: Can you see an age that you could live until? Could you predict how long you might live? Prabhupāda: No, if . . . you see, this body is so made that it must end, but before ending, you must be competently Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then, next life, you become permanent in life, in knowledge, in blissfulness. That is required. Carol Jarvis: Many people find it very difficult to reconcile the spiritual way of life in the Kṛṣṇa movement with the great financial resources the movement also has. Why do you need any great financial . . .? Prabhupāda: It doesn't . . . the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement does not depend on any material condition, any material condition. Carol Jarvis: But you make a lot of money out of the sales of your books, etcetera. There is begging in the streets each day. Prabhupāda: Yes. But there are many beggars; they do not get money. We get money. We are not beggars—we are giving books, knowledge. Do you think we are beggars? Carol Jarvis: If I could use the example, perhaps, of your temple, which has a lot of very rich material things in it. I wonder what significance that plays in your spiritual life. Prabhupāda: So what do you mean by spiritual and material? Do you know the distinction? Then I'll show you spiritual. And do you know? Carol Jarvis: Well, the material . . . Prabhupāda: I say that in the temple there is nothing material, all spiritual. But you have no eyes to see to it with. Carol Jarvis: I wonder if you could lead an equal sort of life without the richness of the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do. You can live at your home like us. We are giving the example. You can live also like that. That is spiritual life. If you follow the same rules and regulation and live like that, that is spiritual life. Carol Jarvis: You told me earlier that you make thousands of dollars a day . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: . . . out of the sales of your books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: If you want your thoughts to be passed on to other people, why do you sell the books and make money out of them? Prabhupāda: Otherwise you'll not read it. If I give you free, then you'll think, "Ah, this is something nonsense. They are giving free." Carol Jarvis: Not necessarily give them free, but perhaps sell them for a price that pays for the cost of producing them. Prabhupāda: So when they pay for it . . . when they pay for it, they will try to see, "What these books are saying? Let me see." And if you get free, then you may keep it in your rack for hundreds of years. So that is not the . . . but after all, we have to print these books, so who will pay for that? We have no money. Carol Jarvis: Well, what happens to the rest of the money, though, that is collected in the streets? Prabhupāda: We are increasing our movement. We are opening centers. We are printing more books. This is my books. I have made a Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. That is my will, and I have given my will that fifty percent of the collection should be spent for reprinting the books and fifty percent should be spent for spreading the movement. So there is no question of material profit. Carol Jarvis: I wonder if I could ask you just finally, then, if you have a message for the Australian people. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the message: That people are under the impression that one is this body, but that is not the fact. The soul, or the man, he is within the body. Just like you are not your . . . this shirt and coat. You are within the shirt and coat. Similarly, the living entity, the living being, is within this body, the gross body and the subtle body. The subtle body is composed of mind, intelligence and ego, and the gross body is a composition of these material things—earth, water, air, fire, like that, five elements. Altogether, eight elements. This is inferior energy. And the superior energy is within these eight elements—five gross and three subtle. So we have to study about that thing. Just like I asked that boy that "You can manufacture a huge machine, flying in the sky, 747, but why don't you manufacture the pilot?" Carol Jarvis: Thank you. (background conversation about filming, recording) Prabhupāda: So that is intelligence, that if in spite of your manufacturing such a huge machine, without the help of a pilot you cannot fly it. Carol Jarvis: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: So why don't you manufacture pilot? Carol Jarvis: Probably someday they may. Prabhupāda: That is your nonsense. That is nonsense. Carol Jarvis: At the moment we're just taking some photographs. *Prabhupāda: No, at the . . . you talk at the moment, sir. You don't give me post*-dated check that, "In future I shall be millionaire. Now you take a check of million or . . ." Shall I accept it? Carol Jarvis: No, at the moment we're just taking some photographs. We can't let you talk at the moment. You're supposedly listening to my questions. So . . . Prabhupāda: All right. Carol Jarvis: . . . for the moment I'll pretend to be asking you some questions for the purposes of cutting the interview. Prabhupāda: No, you note down that we are asking that you are so expert in manufacturing big, big machine. Why not manufacture a pilot? That is my question. Carol Jarvis: And as I said, they probably will some day. Prabhupāda: That "probably" again. (laughs) That is not possible. Carol Jarvis: Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not know. That is I say. Therefore I say you cannot do it. You do not know it. Carol Jarvis: But then why should you know it more than I should? Prabhupāda: You cannot manufacture even a small germ, what to speak of pilot. That is the problem. The modern education is they do not know it. Carol Jarvis: Perhaps they could build something . . . Prabhupāda: "Perhaps," "maybe," this is not scientific proposal. Gurukṛpā: Perhaps they can keep you young. Carol Jarvis: That's just what I was going to say. Perhaps they can build something without giving him . . . Prabhupāda: Who is . . . who is . . . Carol Jarvis: . . . giving him a mind, a free mind. Prabhupāda: So suppose if you say: "Perhaps I'll be able to keep my young age continually," is it possible? Carol Jarvis: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Then? You don't know. Then learn it. It is not possible. You must become an old lady. (laughter) Carol Jarvis: How do you know? Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. You know also. You are denying only. You know that you shall become . . . Carol Jarvis: No, but I don't know anything. I'm prepared not to know anything. I'm prepared to wait and see . . . Prabhupāda: Then you can know from the experience that every . . . your grandmother was young lady some years ago. Now she's old man . . . old woman. Carol Jarvis: Yes. Prabhupāda: How do you know? Carol Jarvis: But, you know, you could use that argument and say: "Yes, but I also know that they weren't able to cure a single disease." Prabhupāda: Now, if you say that, "My grandmother has become old lady. I'll not become," that is lunacy. Carol Jarvis: No, no, no. I'm not suggesting that I'm not going to become old. I'm simply saying that I don't know . . . Prabhupāda: So therefore, therefore you cannot stop the nature's process. You are dependent. You should first of all understand that you are dependent on nature's process. That is intelligence. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi . . . (BG 3.27). If you extravagantly say that "I shall stop this nature's process," that is lunacy, craziness. It is not possible. You have to accept that you are under the stringent laws of nature. Carol Jarvis: Oh, I couldn't . . . I agree with everything that you're saying about the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. So, but therefore how you can make a plan of happiness? Nature is baffling your plan. That you have to understand, "Why nature is baffling me?" That is real knowledge. Carol Jarvis: So your answer . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: . . . is to work with nature. Prabhupāda: We can do that. We can do that, that . . . You cannot combat with the nature's law, but Kṛṣṇa says that if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can do that. You can stop nature's law acting upon you. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Carol Jarvis: Why . . . why would you want to stop nature's law acting in its natural way? Prabhupāda: Because I don't want to be old man, but I am being forced. Therefore I want to stop this force of the nature. That is my natural inclination. Carol Jarvis: But isn't it also your natural . . . isn't it natural to . . . (indistinct) . . . with nature than to try and fight it? Prabhupāda: It is struggle. Struggle means . . . struggle for existence means there is something against my will, and I want to stop it. This is called struggle for existence. And that is . . . the whole world is going on, that . . . they have started that United Nation. Why United Nation? You remain . . . but they are trying to stop war. "Let us struggle unitedly." So that is going on. You don't want war, but the war is inevitable. Even the United Nation is there, still war is going on. That is struggle. So . . . but they are not coming to the point of understanding that, "We are trying so much, so hard, to become happy, but the nature is not allowing me." This is real intelligence. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . If we remain dull—"Let the nature's law act upon me as it likes"—and we go on struggling to stop it, it will never stop, because nature's law is so powerful. You cannot stop it. Carol Jarvis: But why do you want to fight nature's law? Prabhupāda: Then you want happiness. Again I am repeatedly saying that you don't want to stop your old age. You want to remain young. Carol Jarvis: No, no, no . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone . . . Carol Jarvis: I'm saying I think I can be happy by working within nature's laws rather than trying to fight them. Prabhupāda: That you are not working. That is . . . that is your . . . that is . . . Carol Jarvis: But I'm not unhappy. Prabhupāda: That's all . . . You are not happy. Carol Jarvis: No, I'm not unhappy. I'm perfectly happy. Prabhupāda: No, that is your ignorance. Nobody is happy. That is . . . then it is the happiness of the dog. He is also thinking happy. The hog is also thinking happy. That is another illusion. The dog may be a very big dog, and he can bark very nicely, but he is not happy because he has got a master. As soon as the master, "Come here," "Yes." Chain. Carol Jarvis: But all of these people have a master. You do the same to them. You call them and they jump. Prabhupāda: No. Carol Jarvis: That's the same as a dog coming to its master. Prabhupāda: Yes. But to have a real master and to have a false master . . . Carol Jarvis: What's the difference? Prabhupāda: Just like a physician. He is asking that, "Come here. Lie down." His knife . . . you know that he'll make surgical . . . he agrees. But if somebody, rogue, says that, "I shall cut your throat," he'll not agree. That is intelligence. A physician is also with the knife, and the rogue is also with the knife. When the physician says: "You lie down. I shall have some surgical operation," he agrees to ply on his body the knife. But he'll never agree if he knows that, "He is a rogue. He'll simply cut my throat." That is the difference. But superficially you see, "Both of them are with knife," but one for real happiness, one for false thing. Carol Jarvis: I find it hard to see the difference. Prabhupāda: Yes, you find out how to go to a physician, agree to his proposal. Then you'll be cured. Otherwise you'll have to suffer with that boil, always burning, burning, burning, burning. Carol Jarvis: Thank you for your time. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them some prasāda . (break) . . . yogī . There are many animals. They are also doing . . . (background conversation as people leave) And Garuḍa also, vegetarian. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Garuḍa. *Prabhupāda: Garuḍa. But he carries the Lord Viṣṇu. That is not the point. How to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, that is really . . . to become vegetarian, nonvegetarian, that is not very important. But we are interested in Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . We are not in the group of vegetarians or nonvegetarians. We are Kṛṣṇa*-ized. We take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . That is our . . . we are servant of Kṛṣṇa, so whatever is left over by Kṛṣṇa, we take. If Kṛṣṇa eats meat, we shall take Kṛṣṇa prasādam . What can we do? Therefore we offer Kṛṣṇa whatever He wants to eat, and we take the remnants. That is our . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26), so we offer Him. If Kṛṣṇa says: "Māṁsa, eggs, give Me," then we shall offer Him and take. Guest: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Carol Jarvis: Thank you very much. Bye bye. (guests leave) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They all take that this is some kind of a materialistic business, selling books and collecting money, and we purchase a beautiful temple . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that we are not material; it is all spiritual. That they do not know. Where is material? If everything is prepared and everything there is Kṛṣṇa, then where is material? When it is misused, other than Kṛṣṇa, then it is material. Now, just like the university department and the criminal department. Where is the difference superficially? That's a building, that's a building. There are officer; there are officer. There are rooms; there are rooms. Why it is called criminal, prison house? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The activities inside. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is the activity which concerns. In the university there is only activity of education, learning. And here, all the criminals are violating the laws, they are put together. But superficially they look the same room, same food, same office, same typewriter. So it is the question of understanding why it is called criminal department and why it is called university. So as soon as it is university department, that is good. The same building, the same Dictaphone, the same typewriter, same table, same chair, when they are used for Kṛṣṇa it is spiritual. The same money, everything, it looks like that. Therefore they cannot understand. The nirviśeṣavādī and the śūnyavādī , they, "Spiritual means these things should be zero." They say it should be zero. "No table, no chair, no house, no, no, no, no . . ." But that is (laughs) ignorance. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256). The things which are usable by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if we give up them, prapañcikā , as material, that is foolishness. That they do not know. They have yet to learn. It is Rūpa Gosvāmī's injunction. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ, mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgaḥ. Parityāga means giving up: "Oh, it is material." So we are not such fools, śūnyavādī and nirviśeṣavādī . We are not such fools. *Arjuna, he thought that not killing is better than killing, but Kṛṣṇa convinced him, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Therefore he, after reading Bhagavad*-gītā , he took it, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Generally people understand not killing is better than killing. But Kṛṣṇa explained to Arjuna, "No, if there is My desire, then killing is better than not killing." And that is knowledge. Therefore we have to carry out simply Kṛṣṇa's order or His representative's order. Then it is all good. Either killing or not killing, it doesn't matter because it is coming directly from the Supreme. And that is spiritual. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa induced Arjuna to kill? He was presenting as very good man, that "I shall not kill." And that's . . . actually that is good. Even if your enemy excuse him, that is very good idea. But if it is not desired by Kṛṣṇa, then it is bad. So our principle is: We have to act according to the desire of Kṛṣṇa; then it is good. Otherwise, bad. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So in spite of advancement of knowledge, because they are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore they are all duṣkṛtinaḥ , all sinful men. That is the test. So it is very difficult to understand this philosophy, but this is the fact. We are not going to be followers of zero- vādīs or impersonal- vādīs . We remain completely in the varieties, but these varieties are usable only for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. You cannot stop the varieties. You have to change the quality of the varieties. Just like we are eating. It is not possible to stop eating. Why shall I stop eating? But the quality is changed. It is prasādam . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like we're getting some money for our books . . . Prabhupāda: The quality's changed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . they take that spiritual life is negation of anything that they're doing now—no more money, no more anything. Prabhupāda: For our personal comfort, we, our students are lying on the floor. They are not using the money for purchasing nice furniture. No personal comfort. But if you say that, "You are purchasing big, big car," yes, for going quickly to serve Kṛṣṇa. Our service is main point. If I can go and serve Kṛṣṇa within a minute, why shall I wait for one hour? So we take all advantages. After all, it belongs to Kṛṣṇa. They say that "We have manufactured." That's all . . . but we say that Kṛṣṇa has manufactured. So they . . . this philosophy, it is little difficult to understand by the dull men, that nothing is without Kṛṣṇa. Everything . . . īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Sarvam , when we say sarvam , how we can exclude this and that? Everything is in relationship with Kṛṣṇa, sarvam. Sarvam means everything. So how can you discriminate, "This is material; this is spiritual"? The discrimination is that when it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is material, and when it is used for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. That is the explanation of sarvam . Just like a thief has stolen my money. The money will be utilized. He'll spend it. I am spending, and he is . . . then why he's criminal? If you plea . . . if you present this plea, that "Money's for spending, so either you spend or I spend . . ." But that is not the idea, that the money . . . my money means the money should be spent for my purpose, and because you have taken the money and spending for your purpose, therefore you are criminal. That is the distinction between material and spiritual. Money, or everything, belongs to Kṛṣṇa. When it is utilized for Kṛṣṇa, this is spiritual, and when it is not utilized for Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? You cannot say that, "Yes, I have taken your money, so you are also spending, I am also spending. So why do you call me a criminal?" The answer will be: "Yes, you are not spending for me; you are spending for you. Therefore you are criminal." Is it very difficult to understand? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That last argument again? You're taking money . . .? Prabhupāda: The money belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So if you spend it for Kṛṣṇa, then it is spiritual. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And if you spend for your benefit, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8), bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasām (BG 5.29). Repeatedly says. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor. So when everything is used for the fulfillment of the will of the proprietor, that is proper use. Otherwise improper use. Just like we have given several times this example, "Keep to the right," "Keep to the left." So you are driving your car. The will is, government will is, "Keep to the right." As soon as you keep to the left, immediately you are criminal. You cannot put this argument, "What is the wrong? I am driving." "No, because you have violated my will, therefore you are . . ." the government will see. That is criminal. So everything . . . bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasā . . . He is the proprietor. He is the enjoyer. So because you have enjoyed without His permission, therefore you become criminal. You are punishable. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpam (BG 3.13). You'll see this verse. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhagavad*-gītā . *Prabhupāda: Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Devotee: It's gone, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What can I do? Gurukṛpā: "In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajña , supply all necessities to man. But he who enjoys these gifts without offering them to the demigods in return is certainly a thief." Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation A -- April 22, 1976, Melbourne Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The machine, I forgot to turn it . . . one knob down. I wanted to tape what you were saying, because . . . (break) We find actually it's true that when we try to speak philosophy sometimes to unwilling persons, they take that we are trying to convert them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And therefore they feel threatened. They react in an adverse way, put up so many barriers. Prabhupāda: Chanting they will take part. That's it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Before you went to America, in India, before 1965, were people coming at all, Indian people, to learn anything? Were they interested in any way? Prabhupāda: No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now they're coming, so many. Prabhupāda: They were coming, but I was engaged in writing. I was not visiting many . . . (break) Hari-śauri: . . . when they begin to write, then they finish up their activities and retire and simply write. But you wrote first and then came out and distributed it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I personally, I don't think that even Americans or Westerners would have accepted even your teachings, as clear as they are, without having your personal association and seeing your example. I think people would have thought that it's totally impossible to do such a thing. Hari-śauri: It would have remained theoretical. But because you came and showed practical example, then everything has become very easy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Āpani ācārī prabhu jīvera śikṣāya . That is the way of teaching. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I've read some of your old Back to Godhead magazines, and actually you've been saying the same thing all along, with the same force also. Some of your critiques of Dr. Radhakrishnan's Bhagavad*-gītā and modern science . . . Prabhupāda: You have read? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: "Scholars Deluded." Hari-śauri: Sometimes the devotees say that, "Now Prabhupāda is preaching much more strongly than ever before." But then, when we read the old Back to Godheads , it's exactly the same. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even if we read the First Canto of *Bhāgavatam* . . . Hari-śauri: It's very powerful. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You translated that in India before you came. (end) Conversation A -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne (Conversation with Minister Dixon) Devotee (1): . . . social welfare, and also he's minister for sport and recreation. He has come to see you, and this is his secretary. Mr. Dixon: Well, I am very pleased to have the opportunity of meeting you. Prabhupāda: Sit down. Mr. Dixon: How long have you been in Australia? Prabhupāda: Just up to Sunday. Monday we are going? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we were here on the twentieth of July. We'll be here until Monday. Mr. Dixon: What's the main reason for your visit? Prabhupāda: Preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, about Kṛṣṇa. You have seen our books, our . . . show him. Devotee (1): Have you seen Prabhupāda's books? The book I was just showing you? Mr. Dixon: I am not very familiar with the books. Prabhupāda: We have got very good response for accepting our books all over the world, Kṛṣṇa books. Mr. Dixon: The reason that I was most interested to come is that my responsibilities in Victoria are a lot to do with the growth of our young people, and I think that many of the things that we don't succeed in doing, the problems that we have with drugs and alcohol and all sorts of unhappiness, that what your life indicates has got something that I think we could do well to take parts of it, to be involved in the things, the way in which we live. And I'd be interested to hear from you as to what you would believe might be done to encourage a greater acceptance of your areas of philosophy and religion. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our philosophy is to purify, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12). Our philosophy is to purify the core of the heart from all dirty things. This is the basic principle of our philosophy, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam , cleansing the core of the heart. So just this morning several boys and girls became initiated. So our first promise is, before the Deity, before the fire, before the Vaiṣṇavas, before the spiritual master, that from this day no more illicit sex, no more intoxication, no more meat-eating, no more gambling. This is the first initiation. Then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Very simple method. But one cannot practice these things without association of devotees. Nobody can do it outside. But here they are able; immediately they give up. All these boys, they were addicted to all these habits, but since they have come to the association, immediately they have given up, instantly. So you can bring any number of young men, and we shall be glad to make him free from all these things, practically engage him. It is open. If you like, you can take advantage. Mr. Dixon: Yes. I am thinking more in terms of our general education system, for example. Prabhupāda: This is the best education. Our education begins when we learn to see all women as mother. That is the beginning of education. Mr. Dixon: When we learn . . . Prabhupāda: It doesn't require Ph.D. degrees to train him in such a way that a person will see, except his married wife, all women as mother. Mr. Dixon: Women as . . .? Prabhupāda: All women. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: As mother. Mr. Dixon: As mother. *Prabhupāda: Mother. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu . This is the original system of education in India, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu , to think of all women except his own wife as mother. Para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat : "Others' money as the garbage in the street." Nobody touches the garbage. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu (Cāṇakya-śloka 10): "And one who sees all other living entities on the level of himself . . ." If you feel pinching, why should you pinch others? If one learns these three things, he is paṇḍita , he is learned. And another three things: When you accept Kṛṣṇa, or God . . . when I say Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means God. God is the proprietor of everything. Just take for example the United Nation. They are going and making noise, full speeches, for the last fifty years, but the fighting is going on. But they do not . . . why do they not pass a resolution that, "This earth planet . . ." Take . . . only take this earth planet, earthly planet. Other you leave aside. "This is the property of God, and we are all sons of God. Let us enjoy the property of the . . ." But you will not allow. You Australian, you have got so much land. You won't allow anybody to come, because you think it is your land. Mr. Dixon: Yes, I think, ah, if you're looking at the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, this is the principle. Actually it is not your land. You come from Europe. Mr. Dixon: I agree that it's not. *Prabhupāda: But you are now claiming it is your land. The Africans, they are claiming . . . so much land, you can produce ten times food grains for as many population as there are. Ten times milk is required, food grain is required. That is the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Mr. Dixon: If we produced all of the foods that we could produce and we literally gave them away to other countries that need them, we'd produce a tremendous disincentive in those countries for their own production. I don't think it's as easy, the world . . . Prabhupāda: Production . . . you take the total land as God's property, and all the population, they are sons of God. Then whole problem solved. Everything solved. If economic problem is solved, then social, political, religious, philosophical, everything is solved. Mr. Dixon: If there was exchange without money, I think you'd be right. Prabhupāda: No money required. No money required. Simply one is required to work to produce food grain. That's all. No money required. And God has given us so much land that we can produce food grain and we can keep cows' milk, and from milk we derive so many rich, nutritious, full of vitamins foodstuff that the whole economic question solved immediately. But we are producing . . . instead of food grain, we are producing tobacco for smoking cigarette. We are producing coffee for going to hell. So how you can expect social reformation? In Africa I have seen: instead of producing grain, they are producing coffee, tea, and keeping the cows for killing, making business to sell meat to other countries. Mr. Dixon: Is incense a form of intoxication? Prabhupāda: Incense? No. Why intoxication? Mr. Dixon: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Incense keeps the atmosphere very nice, fresh. *Mr. Dixon: Very sweet*-smelling. Gurukṛpā: This flower is not intoxicating. Prabhupāda: It is just like in your country, what is that fragrance? Scent. Scent. Gurukṛpā: Perfume? Prabhupāda: Perfume is very popular. Mr. Dixon: But I would have thought that in some ways it might perform the same sort of function for some people as, say, smoking some cigarettes performs for others. Prabhupāda: No. Mr. Dixon: In other words, it . . . Prabhupāda: That depends on the particular man, what kind of flavor he wants. That is another thing. But there are different varieties of incense. Generally we use rose flavor, sandalwood flavor. We offer to the Deity room to keep the atmosphere very favorable. This is, originally in India it was dhūpa . They used to put in the fire some flavored hulls, and it was very nice. That has been transferred into now stick incense. Mr. Dixon: The stricture on the eating of meat, does that derive from the fact that animals have their lives which are accorded . . . Prabhupāda: No, vegetable, vegetable has got life. Mr. Dixon: Yes. What I'm asking is that because animals have a higher priority in life than vegetables? *Prabhupāda: No question of priority. Our philosophy is that we are servant of God. So God will eat, and whatever remnants of foodstuff He'll left, that we shall take. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (aside) You find out this verse: patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Just like you have come here. So if I want to offer you something for eatable, it is my duty to ask you, "Mr. Nixon, which foodstuff you'll like to eat?" So you dictate, "I like this very much." Then, if I offer you that foodstuff, then you become pleased. So we have called Kṛṣṇa in this temple, so we are waiting, what foodstuff He wants to eat. So He said that . . . Gurukṛpā: "If one offers me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it." Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam. He is asking very simple thing which everyone can offer. Just like a little leaf, patram; a little flower, puṣpam; a little fruit; and little liquid, either water or ghee, er, milk. So we offer that. We make different varieties with these ingredients, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), and after Kṛṣṇa's eating, we take it. We are servant; *we take the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. We are neither vegetarian nor nonvegetarian. We are prasād*-ian . We don't care for vegetable or not vegetable, because either you kill a cow or kill a vegetable, the sinful action is there. And according to nature's law, it is said that "The animals which has no hand, that is the food for the animals with hands." We are also animals with hands. We human being, we are also animal with hands, and they are animals—no hand but four legs. And there are animals which has no leg, that is vegetable. Apadāni catuṣ-padām (SB 1.13.47). These animals which has no leg, they are food for the animals with four leg. Just like cow eats grass, the goat eats grass. So eating vegetable, there is no credit. Then the goats and the cows are more credit, have more credit, because they don't touch anything except vegetable. So we are not preaching to become goats and cows. No. We are preaching that you become servant of Kṛṣṇa. So whatever Kṛṣṇa eats, we eat. If Kṛṣṇa says that, "Give me meat, give me eggs," so we shall offer Kṛṣṇa meat and eggs, and we shall take it. So don't think that we are after vegetarian, nonvegetarian. No. That is not our philosophy. Because either you take vegetable or you take meat, you are killing. And you have to kill, because otherwise you cannot live. That is nature's way. Mr. Dixon: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we are not for that way. Mr. Dixon: Well, why do you put the stricture on . . . *Prabhupāda: Stricture in this way, no meat*-eating, because cow protection is required. We require milk. And instead of taking milk, if we eat the cows, then where is milk? Mr. Dixon: So milk is very important. Prabhupāda: Very, very important. Mr. Dixon: In terms of the production of food for the world, the world would be much better off without eating animals. Prabhupāda: No, milk is required. Some fatty vitaminous food is required. That necessity is supplied by milk. Therefore specifically . . . Mr. Dixon: Couldn't you get all the necessity you require from grains? Prabhupāda: Grains, no. Grains, they are starch. According to medical science, we require four different groups: starch, carbohydrate, protein and fat. That is full food. So you can get all these things by eating rice, ḍāl , mean pulses, and wheat, and . . . these things contain . . . pulses and wheat contains protein. And milk also contains protein. So protein we require. Fat we get from milk. Fat is required. And vegetables, carbohydrate and food grain, starch. So if you prepare nice foodstuff with all these ingredients, you get full . . . and offer to Kṛṣṇa, then it is purified. Then you are free from all sinful activities. Otherwise, even if you kill vegetable, you are sinful because it has got life. You have no right to kill another life. But you have to live on life. This is your position. Therefore the solution is that you take prasādam . If there is sin by eating vegetable or meat, it goes to the eater. We take the remnants, that's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You follow? Mr. Dixon: Not exactly. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The food that we take is first offered to Kṛṣṇa in the temple, so Kṛṣṇa is the first to eat. And Kṛṣṇa demands that, "You offer Me this particular sorts of foodstuff." So one becomes free from all sinful reactions by first offering to Kṛṣṇa the foodstuff. Not only are you eating, but also you become freed from sinful reaction. Mr. Dixon: I see. Prabhupāda: Don't think we are vegetarian. We can become anything, provided it is eaten from the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. This is our thing. To become vegetarian . . . there are many animals who are vegetarians. The monkeys are vegetarian; the goats are vegetarian; *the cows are vegetarian. So that is not a good qualification, to become vegetarian and become an animal, or to become lion, tiger, dog. So either you are vegetarian or meat*-eater . . . there are many animals. So we are not going to be animals. We are going to become human being. This is our philosophy. Grouping ourself to the vegetarian kingdom or nonvege . . . the animals. The tiger is a great nonvegetarian. Fresh blood they want to eat, drink. Mr. Dixon: Your Grace, do you keep in touch with the world through television or newspapers or the media? Prabhupāda: Yes, many newspaper, many television men, they come. But we speak our philosophy plainly. Mr. Dixon: Do you watch TV yourself? Prabhupāda: No, we have no business. We don't wish to waste our time. Mr. Dixon: Do you read newspapers? Prabhupāda: No. What is newspaper? "This man is killed. This man has stolen. This politician has captured the government." So why shall I waste in the time? Mr. Dixon: How do you become informed as to certain events? Is that . . . Prabhupāda: We have got enough books to read, these books. If you read our books, in your whole lifetime you cannot finish it. And that is required to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is success of life. So why should . . . of course, we are in touch in the newspaper, but as much as it is required. We are in touch with the material world as much as it is required. We are interested in Kṛṣṇa. To help our Kṛṣṇa consciousness we may be in touch with the material world as much as possible. Just like we are riding car also, we are also using Dictaphone, everything, but it is not for any ulterior purpose. It is for Kṛṣṇa's service. Just like we are writing books. This is Kṛṣṇa's service. People may understand about Kṛṣṇa, be benefited. This is our . . . and in that way we are printing books, we are selling books, we are writing books. Mr. Dixon: How many people are in the Kṛṣṇa movement in the world, about? Prabhupāda: About ten to twelve thousand, directly dedicated. Otherwise millions, they are reading our books. They have sympathy. We are selling books very nicely, daily twenty thousand dollar minimum all over the world. In learned circle, big, big universities, professors, they are appreciating. We have many congratulations. Mr. Dixon: And the funds that you derive from the books . . . Prabhupāda: Book Trust. That is explained. Mr. Dixon: . . . are used within your congre . . . within the people that live in . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. I make a Book Trust. That is my will, that from all the collection of the books, fifty percent for reprinting and fifty percent for expanding these temples, these buildings. In this way. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We really don't require very much for our maintenance. As you can see, we live a very simple life. Prabhupāda: Just like these boys, they are practiced to sit down. We have kept two chairs for the visitors. (laughter) We don't require. We can lie down on the floor. We can use only one or two cloths, that's all, throughout the whole year. We have no demands; only bare necessities. We don't smoke, don't drink. There is no expenditure. Don't go to cinema, don't read newspaper or ordinary magazines—nothing. We have got reading matter. Practically we are noncooperating. Mr. Dixon: Practically . . .? Prabhupāda: Noncooperating. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Noncooperating. Mr. Dixon: Noncooperating? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Practically. Mr. Dixon: I don't understand that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because we are not engaged in so many of the superfluous or unnecessary . . . Prabhupāda: Material amenities. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These things are described in Vedic terms as anartha . They are not very important or very valuable to human advancement. What is really essential is advancement in knowledge. Mr. Dixon: One of the principles upon which I have lived is a question of involvement with the people around me in trying to do things better than they have been done before. *Prabhupāda: But you must know first of all what is the aim of life and what is better. That we must know. So that is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that we are not interested in God; *then whole thing is spoiled. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). We are not interested in God. We want to be happy by adjusting the external energy of God. That is blind leadership. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This will never be successful, and it is blind leadership because we do not know what is the aim. If you know the aim of life, and if we make program according to that aim, then it will be successful. Blindly everyone is manufacturing his aim, objective—different leaders, different "isms." The Communists, they have got different aims. The capitalists, they have got different aims. The socialists, they have got different aims. Mr. Dixon: Is it true that there are more young people now in the world that are giving more serious thought to what life is really all about? Prabhupāda: Yes, they should. Because they are being educated, they are experiencing the faults of their fathers and grandfathers. Mr. Dixon: And are they able to tell that? Prabhupāda: So we are telling, "This is the aim. You take." And therefore more response from the younger section. All our devotees, they are just like my grandchildren. Their fathers may be like my children. But they are responsive. Mr. Dixon: How do you spend a day? Prabhupāda: Day? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How do we . . . what do we do during the day? What are our activities? *Prabhupāda: We have got activities day and night, but because the body is there, we have to eat, but we eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam . And naturally we go to sleep, to take some rest. Otherwise, we are always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. We have no other business. So I go in the morning for little morning walk because the body, whole day if I sit down, it may be jammed. Therefore, for body's sake, I go for little walking. And then, whole day and night, I am sitting here, either chanting or writing books or talking with you, giving them direction. That's all. We have no other business than Kṛṣṇa's business. That is the peculiarity of this movement. Even if you take it is a religious movement, there is no religious movement in the whole world which has got twenty*-four hours' engagement. You'll never find. The Christians go to the church once in a week for one hour, then closed. That is also not very regularly. Even if you take . . . our engagement, twenty-four hours. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Every day. *Prabhupāda: Every day. You can see how we are engaged twenty*-four hours. Gurukṛpā: Prabhupāda gets up at one o'clock in the morning. Prabhupāda: Last night I woke up at half past twelve. (laughter) Yes. So on the whole, utmost I sleep four hours—two hours at night and two hours in daytime. Mr. Dixon: I must . . . your Grace, I'm most grateful to have seen you. I must depart. Thank you very much for having me here. Prabhupāda: Why, thank you for your coming. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him prasāda . *Mr. Dixon: Good*-bye. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . misleader. But he himself has no character. So here it is open secret, to keep a beautiful girl as secretary, everywhere in Europe and America. So where is purity? Marriage is a taboo, and keep secretary is very good job. And you can get secretary even free of charge. Rather, she will pay. So this is going on. In Vedic civilization marriage is one of the important function of life. As death is important function, birth is important function, similarly, marriage is also important function. Janma*-mṛtyu-vivāha. So in this age everywhere, not only . . . the marriage is now farce. This is the symptom of Kali-yuga: there will be no more marriage. Svīkāra eva codvāhe (SB 12.2.5). Even there is marriage, there will be simply an agreement. That is happening, and it was written five thousand years ago. Svīkāra eva. Svīkāra means by agreement, signing agreement. No marriage function. Otherwise, marriage is a . . . According to Vedic system, if one has got some money, he will spend the money in three functions. When the child is born, very gorgeously he will spend money, give in charity. Always in the Bhāg . . . Nanda Mahārāja is giving in charity cows and money, and Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja is giving. Kṛṣṇa, as family man, He was giving in charity. So when the child is born, the horoscope is made, and to make the child happy, blessings of saintly persons, brāhmaṇas , they are given. So ordinary men also sumptuously fed. So bhūribhiḥ . Everyone gives some blessings so that the child is . . . then marriage. During marriage time . . . you have seen Kṛṣṇa's mother's marriage? That was the system. The father gives to his heart content as much as possible to the daughter. The Kṛṣṇa's mother was royal prince, so her father gave so many elephants, so many horses, so many chariots. (break) This śrāddha ceremony. That is also, feeding the learned brāhmaṇas , saintly person, poor man, relative. Lavishly they spend money during three occasions: birth, death and marriage. During birth the father spends; the marriage, father spends; and death, the son spends. This is the system. So social reformation, but there is no idea how the society will be happy. There is no idea. They are trying to remove this intoxication, LSD, but do not see the cause why LSD has come. They do not try to stop that cause. When the cause is effective, then they are disturbed with the effect. This is the defect. Neither they'll take advice. So how they'll be able to . . . big, big officer, drawing high salary, that's all. There is no effect. Neither there can be any effect. It is not possible. They do not know. Neither they want it. So we are advocating, "Remove these four sinful activities," so nobody will agree. "Illicit sex is our life, to keep a friend, to keep a secretary." And we are advising, "No illicit sex." Then where is life? That's all. Devotee (2): They say, "Why should I live if I can't do these things?" Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): One devotee in New Zealand, his father was dying of leukemia. He told his father to stop eating meat and smoking cigarettes and his health would improve. His father said, "If I can't do these things, what is the use of living?" Prabhupāda: So somebody should . . . (break) . . . committed suicide? Hari-śauri: Ernest Hemingway. Ernest Hemingway. When he found out . . . when the doctor told him he couldn't have sex life anymore, he killed himself. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He was a very big and rich author. Prabhupāda: This is the, I mean, important men. Gurukṛpā: That one Marwari, he spent eighteen lakhs of rupees. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurukṛpā: Marwari, who spent eighteen lakhs . Prabhupāda: I do not know eighteen lakhs , but I know that he went to Germany for medical operation and changing the gland with monkey's gland. Yes. He was eighty years old at that time. Devotee (3): The leaders are so infected. There was an article recently . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). That is already dictated by *Bhāgavatam* . These leaders, rascals, who are blind, and they are trying to lead other blind men. All of them are falling in the ditch. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the case of Mahārāja Veṇa there was some recourse for the brāhmaṇas . What can we do? *Prabhupāda: Yes, brāhmaṇas were controlling the kṣatriyas . They were obeying the instruction of brāhmaṇas . That is social function. The first*-class man will give instruction to the government, and the government will carry the order, "Whether people are actually doing this." Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya . And vaiśya will produce food grain and milk sufficiently. And the śūdras , they will help these three higher classes. That's all. This is social system. (break) The brāhmaṇas , they will be always engaged to make plan how people will be successful in the aim of life. And that will be executed through the kṣatriyas . And the vaiśyas will supply foodstuff. Food is also required. And good government is required, and nice direction is required. This is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. And śūdra , they have no brain; *they will abide by the orders of these higher sections, that's all. So our movement is creating first*-class Brāhmiṇs , and the kṣatriyas , if they abide by our instruction—our instruction means Kṛṣṇa's instruction—then everything will be nicely done. Sannyāsīs , they have begun to keep secretaries. Gurukṛpā: Yogi Bhajan. *Prabhupāda: So many. This tail, dog's tail. Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha or anything, the tail is this side. You may grease it as much as possible, but the whole tendency is sex, that's all, in different dresses only. The objective is sex. This is going on. Some of them are openly declaring that, "I am for sex," and some of them showbottle. But the objective is sex. This is the whole world. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha (SB 7.9.45). And these sannyāsīs like Rajneesh, they are advocating, "This is life—sex. By sex indulgence you get salvation." These brahma-kumārīs . Not brahmacārī but brahma-kumārī. Kumārīs are available very easily. And they keep. And the rich men, they are supplied with nice, beautiful kumārīs . They pay money. This is going on. Brahma-kumārī . They enjoy, and they invite the karmīs to enjoy and get money. Kumārī is there; money is there. That's all. Everywhere this is going on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This just came from Los Angeles along with some other things. They're having an International Yoga and Meditation conference in Chicago in June, and Rāmeśvara was wanting to know if we should send some of our preachers there, to try and have some kind of a booth or take part in it. Prabhupāda: If it is possible. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is sponsored by the Himalayan International Institute of Yoga Science and Philosophy, Swami Rama from the Himalayas. Prabhupāda: Bogus. He's a bogus. Then don't take part. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's many . . . it's costing fifteen dollars for people to get in. Prabhupāda: So we are not going to give. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most . . . I have looked over the people who are speaking. Most of them are from this society. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most of them are from this society. It seems what they've done, they've taken some of the big bhogīs in America like Satchidananda and others, and they've invited them, to draw bigger crowds. So they're taking this opportunity for money*-making. I think we'll probably sell books there, anyway. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'm sure that our devotees will sell books there. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can have a book stall. Gurukṛpā: But outside, though. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Somehow or another. Gurukṛpā: We used to do outside. *Prabhupāda: There is no use taking part in that meeting. Simply take a book stall: " Bhakti*-yoga books." Give a signboard, " Bhakti-yoga books." And give the picture of Dhruva Mahārāja, five-years-old boy, executing bhakti-yoga alone in the forest. We have got meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). That is real yoga . And Bhagavad-gītā , yoginām api . . . these ślokas, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā (BG 6.47). One who's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, he is first-class yogī . Give one picture of the devotees chanting in a very nice place, and give evidence, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā : "This, first-class yogī . Here is first-class yogī ." That will be our preaching. Dhruva Mahārāja is practicing yoga . There are many others. So the highest perfection is Rādhārāṇī, that simply crying, "Kṛṣṇa has gone to Mathurā, not coming back." That is the . . . the whole day and night crying. Who can perform this yoga ? So if you, if possible, draw pictures. Satchidananda, he is also a leader? He has? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Gurukṛpā: Yogi Bhajan. Prabhupāda: Yogi Bhajan also? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kriyananda Swami, Nada Brahmānanda from Rishikesh, Swami Ajaya, Ph.D., from Madison, Wisconsin. (laughter) It's a small college town in America. Yogi Bhajan. There's many others. Gurukṛpā: They have these names. These names are not like our names. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A lot of Indian doctors from Canada and India, America. Hari-śauri: There's one with a Japanese name as well. Prabhupāda: So you can give yogī import that, "Hare Kṛṣṇa is the greatest of all yoga systems." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Topmost yoga . *Prabhupāda: Yes. And quote from Bhagavad*-gītā . Show pictures. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You'd like to take your massage now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (break) (end) Conversation -- April 27, 1976, Auckland *Devotee (1): Yeah, he's floating around somewhere doing nonsense. Now he's eating meat. (Prabhupāda chuckles) And this one boy in Fiji wrote me a letter. His friend worked at the hotel, Guru Maharaj*-ji came and stayed there, and he was a waiter. For dinner, Guru Maharaj-ji had shrimp curry and then beer. Drinking, eating meat and having illicit sex. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's his līlā . Devotee (1): Complete nonsense. Devotee (2): How does he keep followers? Prabhupāda: So followers are like that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like guru , like celā . Devotee (2): It's a very cheap thing. Very much they're moving on the group spirit. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): It's just a personality cult, with no philosophy. Devotee (1): Social club. Gurukṛpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, for the abhiṣeka , do we require cow urine and cow dung and tail of cow? Is it . . . Prabhupāda: If available. Not? Devotee (1): Yes, we can get it. Gurukṛpa: It's available. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're feeling threatened by our kīrtana parties. Prabhupāda: Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said that some of the town councils are trying to pass laws against our chanting in the streets. Devotee (2): The Christians are behind it in Whangarei. Prabhupāda: So, can they pass such law? Devotee (2): I don't think so. We're having . . . some of our men are going to meet with the council the day after tomorrow at the meeting. They're open to our side. The reason is that the businessmen have complained. Some of the businessmen have complained. Prabhupāda: Not all of them. You take some signature from other businessmen. Devotee (2): Yes, all right. Prabhupāda: You present that. Devotee (2): Yes. The men who are going to speak are businessmen, devotees. One is an architect. Prabhupāda: Then he can organize so many signatures. Devotee (2): One is a restaurant owner, and one has a hairdressing salon. And they're going to speak . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone likes; that's a fact. Gurukṛpa: We gave the argument before that they say it is a disturbance, but there are so many cars and airplanes which are making disturbance. They should also be stopped. Devotee (2): Last week we wrote letters to the newspaper, and they published them, showing our view. And in Whangarei . . . it's another city, a hundred miles from here. It's near the farm, up north, and the devotees chant there. And the businessmen complained. And the devotees wrote a letter criticizing the materialistic businessmen, and that they didn't care for the people, only they wanted money. And they printed it this big in the newspaper, completely criticizing, and the people liked it. They put it in, everything, word for word what the devotees said. So it was good. Prabhupāda: So there is agitation against chanting, that is also good. Devotee (2): It means it's effective. Prabhupāda: Yes, "Hare Kṛṣṇa is bad." (laughs) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't want to be bothered with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't want to be bothered with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on with their hellish life. Prabhupāda: So we want that. Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa somehow or other. (devotees laugh) "We don't want to be bothered by Hare Kṛṣṇa," that means chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): Because our kīrtana party now, we have . . . we go on kīrtana , eighty men. We go two nights a week with eighty men. Huge kīrtana with five mṛdaṅgas and guitars, and we get huge crowd from the whole street. Prabhupāda: That will make you triumphant. Go on kīrtana . That is very nice. Kīrtana and book distribution. This is also kīrtana . Gurukṛpā: This is bṛhad mṛdaṅga . Prabhupāda: Yes. So do it enthusiastically. Keep yourself pure. Nobody will be able to do any harm to you. Kṛṣṇa will give you protection. So? (break) Devotee (2): Eight crores. Hari-śauri: Didn't he say eighty crores? Prabhupāda: One crore means ten million. Hari-śauri: Rupees. Prabhupāda: Such eight. Devotee (2): Eighty million rupees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): That's a million dollars. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eight million dollars. Prabhupāda: Now it will be tested how much money we have got. (Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa laughs) Gurukṛpā: Ghee is cheaper in New Zealand than in Australia. Prabhupāda: Anyway, first of all arrange for selling. Gurukṛpā: I've already sent off the letter. *Prabhupāda: And you can disvertise it from New Zealand or from Australia. There can be very peaceful condition of the whole world. Simply mismanaged by the rascal leaders. Otherwise, people can live very peacefully, eat sumptuously, save time, and there is no necessity of stopping the, I mean to say, bare necessities of life. There is arrangement for eating, sleeping, sex life also. But not like fools and rascals. Like sane man. But this modern civilization, it is insane, crazy civilization. There is a little pleasure in sex life—simply sex life, increase sex life, spoiling everything. That is crazy. Eating—eat anything, any nonsense thing, and become a hog. Sleeping—oḥ, there is no limit, twenty*-four-hours sleeping if it is possible. Go on, this is going on. Eating, sleeping, mating. And defense—and discover atomic weapon, this weapon, that weapon, and kill innocent persons, unnecessarily, defense. This is going on. *But everything can be used properly for peaceful condition, and when you become peaceful, no disturbance, then you can very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and your life becomes successful. This is our program. We don't want to stop anything. How it can be stopped? Whatever is the bare neces . . . just like we have taken sannyāsa . What is that? "Oh, we have no sex life only. Otherwise, we are also eating, we are also sleeping." So that is also stopped in good old age. In old age, if a person like me, at the age of eighty years, if I would have shopped for sex life, does it look very good? Young men, they are allowed. That's all right. But a young . . . old man is going to the club and spending for sex life so much money. Therefore younger generation, they're allowed gṛhastha life from twenty*-five years to fifty years. That's all. After that, stop sex life. Actually, they want to stop population. Then why it, sex, then? No, they'll have sex life, at the same time, no population, kill the children. What is that? Simply sinful life. They will suffer, continue to suffer. So we want to stop that suffering. These rascals, they do not understand. They think, "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is disturbing." A rascal civilization. So let us try our best. What can be done? You are also helping in this movement. So don't spoil the movement by manufacturing ideas. Don't do that. Go on in the standard way, keep yourself pure; *then movement is sure to be successful. But if you want to spoil it by whimsical, then what can be done? It will be spoiled. If you manufacture whims and disagree and fight amongst yourself, then it will be another edition of these so*-called movements. It will lose the spiritual strength. Always remember it. You cannot . . . now, actually, people are surprised: "What this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra has got power that it is changing so quickly?" And on the other hand, it is to be admitted, unless it has got power, how it is changing? So we have to keep that power. Don't make it an ordinary musical vibration. It is a different thing—spiritual. Although it seems like musical vibration, but it is spiritual, completely. mantrauśadhi-vaśa . Even, by mantra , the snakes can be charmed. So mantra is not ordinary sound vibration. So we have to keep the mantra in potency, potent, by offenseless chanting, by remaining pure. If you pollute the mantra , then it will lose its effect. Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (to other devotees) Today you'll be giving that lakṣmī in the morning? Because we can take our passports and go to the bank. Devotee (2): And you can change some more at the airport when you leave. Hari-śauri: You have to have your passport. Devotee (2): At the airport, yes. Devotee (1): At the bank. *Devotee (2): You have to bring the airplane ticket, too. (indistinct discussion of money matters) So concerning the temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I talked to some boys, and the one boy, Dhūmiya, he used to be in Australia, he made a fifteen*-foot-high Lord Caitanya. Do you remember at the Ratha-yātrā? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm. Devotee (2): And we're going to build a temple with nice domes, Indian style, and with sculpture like the elephant heads . . . Prabhupāda: Make in Vṛndāvana style. Devotee (2): Yes. I'll get pictures of the different . . . Prabhupāda: There is that big dome and . . . you have seen Vṛndāvana? Devotee (2): I have seen it just before it was finished, not since it was completed. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): But I've seen pictures. Prabhupāda: I think we have got pictures. Devotee (2): And the place where we're going to put it, you'll be able to see it for miles. It'll be a landmark. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee (2): You can see it for many miles. Prabhupāda: Not only one; *you hundreds of temples construct. Village to village, town to . . . at the same time, men. And it will revolutionize the whole rascal situation. At the present moment, it is rascal situation. They're simply satisfied by driving the motor . . . put*-put-put-put-put-put-put-put-put! (Prabhupāda makes the sound of a fast motor) They are thinking, "Oh, how highly I am situated." All crazy. But this has been taught to them that, "This is civilization. If you have got a motorcycle and you can come like the wild cat, (all laugh) then you are civilized." They are thinking how great civilized they are; *we are thinking how wild cat he is. And what is the difference between wild cat and running dog and this motorcycle, put*-put ? What is the difference? Devotee (2): Nothing. *Prabhupāda: And they're taking it highly civilized way of life. Where you are going? You cannot go beyond this earth. You attempted so much to go to the moon planet, you failed. And where you can go, put*-put-put-put ? You'll have to stay here. But that rascal does not understand. He thinks, "I am going very fast." Where you are going? You are destined to stay here. That he does not understand. Not only this put-put motorcycle, the put-put airplane also. They're also trying to go to this planet around, round. That sputnik, first sputnik, eighteen thousand miles, and they simply rounded over the world in one hour and twenty-five minutes. And where did you go? And when he's tired, then come down again. They cannot understand, these so-called scientists, that we cannot go in this way. There is higher authority. Why it will allow us to go anywhere? Just like the horse running fast, but within the racecourse. That's all. It cannot go beyond the racecourse. And similarly, however heroic expedition we may show, you are, what is called, baddha-jīva , conditioned. You cannot cross the condition. That is not possible. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate ( BG 3.27). A rascal, on account of his false prestige, he is thinking, "Oh, I am independent. I can do whatever I like." Vimūḍhātmā , foolish, rascal. Mūḍha , not— vimūḍhātmā , "especially the rascal, a special rascal." Ordinary rascal is better than the special rascal. (laughs) So all these scientists, philosophers and political leaders, they're all special rascal, they are. Devotee (2): Vimūḍha . Prabhupāda: Ordinary man, they're simply rascal, and these rascals are special rascals. *Gurukṛpā: Vimūḍhā nānupaśyanti paśyanti jñāna*-cakṣuṣaḥ (BG 15.10). Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm. So don't be vimūḍhas . Better remain mūḍha , not special rascal. (end) Conversation -- April 30, 1976, Fiji Prabhupāda: . . . therefore he very intelligently appointed Kṛṣṇa as his spiritual master. Because everyone is in perplexity about the problem of life. So this very thing happened to Arjuna, and he wanted to go to spiritual master for solution. And the supreme spiritual master was present before him; *therefore he submitted: śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam ( BG 2.7). Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ . . . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma*-saṁmūḍha-cetāḥ, yac chreyaḥ syān niścitaṁ brūhi tan me . Prabhupāda: Yac chreyaḥ syāt . . . yac chreyaḥ syāt tat brūhi me niścitam. So the spiritual master's duty is how to benefit the disciple, śreyaḥ . What is the translation? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me." *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā . So because he accepted discipleship, so He immediately chastised him, that "You rascal, you are talking like a very learned man, but you are on the platform of bodily conception of life, the platform of the animals." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). Anyone who accepts this body as self, he's animal. He's not even a human being. So the whole world is on this bodily concept of life. That is going on, "American," "European," "Hindu," "Muslim," "black," "white," this, that. They do not know what is education. That is the first education, that "You rascal, you are not this body. You are within the body." So who understands this? And they're declaring that "We are student of Bhagavad-gītā . We have studied Bhagavad-gītā ." Hmm? Even Gandhi, he takes photograph with Bhagavad-gītā , but his fighting is for nationalism. The others are doing that. So what is the use of taking Bhagavad-gītā ? The Pakistanis are also doing that. But you have taken Bhagavad-gītā , you are doing the same work. So what is your credit? This is going on. So nobody is learning Bhagavad-gītā . It is first time that we are teaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Otherwise, everyone is misled. The subject matter is that the soul is different from this body. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The karmīs will argue that "I am not ready to hear this yet." Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The karmīs will argue, "I am not ready to hear this yet." Many people, they come and they hear this philosophy, they say: "Very nice. But I am not ready for it yet." *Prabhupāda: But why you have come here, to hear Bhagavad*-gītā ? Why you have come? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Generally, they come to take nice prasādam . *Prabhupāda: All right, that is also kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. Prasādam means we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa; *then it is prasādam . So you have not come, but you have to come to take prasādam . This, it has got connection with Kṛṣṇa. So therefore we welcome you that at least for eating, you are coming to Kṛṣṇa. Gradually you'll understand Kṛṣṇa, by eating only. Kṛṣṇa is not so easy to be understood, but we are giving you facility to eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam so that one day you can understand Kṛṣṇa, this is the policy. Actually, that is the policy. We are not poor-feeding. That is not our philosophy, like Vivekananda, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. No, we are not after that. We are giving you prasādam . And that is fact, that by eating, eating, eating, eating, you one day will become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Simply by eating. Because you are so dull, you cannot understand the philosophy. You know the belly like the animals. So therefore we are giving facility, 'All right, fill up your belly, fill up your belly, and you'll be infected'. As you take foodstuff from a infected area, you become infected with some disease, so this is Kṛṣṇa infected, prasādam . You take it, and one day you'll be diseased with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and that is a fact. Somehow or other let him come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. He'll be benefited. Somehow or other, let him come to the light. May be dim light or very big light. Light is light. So if anyone understands that there is a soul which is conducting the business of this body, then he can very easily understand that there is a Supersoul who is conducting the business of the whole material manifested world. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). If he's convinced this body is useless, a lump of matter only, but the soul is the prime factor, similarly, he'll very easily understand that there is huge, gigantic material body of earth, water, air, fire, sky, they are working so wonderfully on account of the Supersoul. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā : athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna . Find out this verse. Gurukṛpā: Chapter 10, verse forty . . . verse 42. Prabhupāda: Athavā bahunaitena . The Twelfth Chapter. Gurukṛpā: Chapter 10, verse 42. No? (devotee takes a long time to find verse) Prabhupāda: One should practice to open this very quickly. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe." Prabhupāda: Read it carefully. As the small soul has entered . . . dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). This is also a small universe. The same elements are working, but the soul is the prime factor. Similarly, this gigantic body. Athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena . . . viṣṭabhya aham idaṁ kṛtsnam. "The kṛtsnam , the total material energy, millions of universes like that, that is being maintained by Me because I have entered in it in My fragmental portion." Same principle. As I, the individual soul, I am . . . because I have entered this body, the body is working so nicely. It looks beautiful; *it looks fresh. It is machine. The machine is working very nicely so long the pilot or the driver is there. Similarly, where is the difficulty to understand this universal affair? If we accept the same principle that, "I am a small fragmental portion of Kṛṣṇa. I have entered this body. This body is working so nicely. Similarly, because Kṛṣṇa has entered as Mahā*-Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, therefore it is working." Gurukṛpā: Kṛṣṇa also says, gām āviśya ca bhūtāni (BG 15.13). *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many verses. Another verse is mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ (BG 9.10). "The prakṛti is not important. Material energy is not important. My supervision is important." Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ (BS 5.52). The sun is rising and setting by whose order? Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam aham . . . this is to be understood. And if one understands that because the soul is there within the body, therefore the body is working so wonderfully, then he can very easily understand there must be a soul of this universe. How he can deny it? How he can say that it is working automatically? There is no such experience, working automatically. I have given several times the example: the 747, wonderful aeroplane machine, but that is not important. The important is the pilot who is pushing the button and it is, in such big sky, it will stay balanced; *in balance it is flying in six*-hundred-miles speed, onh-onh-onh-onhh (imitates sound of plane engine). And as soon a little . . . finished. So it is a fact. Why the security checking? Because sometimes these, what is that, hi . . . hi . . .? Devotee: Highjackers. Prabhupāda: Highjacks, they attack the pilot. They're not attacking the passengers. (break) (end) Conversation -- May 1, 1976, Fiji Prabhupāda: . . . the Lord then said, uska jabāb " Bhagavān diyā ". This . . . (break) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke ( BG 15.7). Gurukṛpā: "The living entities in this conditional world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind." *Prabhupāda: So with this instrument he's manipulating this machine, as exactly the pilot, with so many electronics, machine, he's working the flying of the plane. Where is the difficulty to understand? And this is . . . body is a machine. Bhrāmayan sarva*-bhū . . . (BG 18.61). Bhrāmayan , wandering. The aeroplane is wandering. This machine is wandering. It is also going, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ, sometimes up, sometimes down. Huh? Find out this. (discussion as devotees look for verse) Same aeroplane, going up and down. Two wings, this hand, like this. Gurukṛpā: "Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds." *Prabhupāda: So same thing: if the pilot is not expert, then goes down to the lowest, finished. Adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ . If the pilot is third class, instead of going up, he goes down, and everything is spoiled. So everything on the pilot. The machine is not important. The machine can go up if the pilot knows how to do it. And the machine can go down. Actually, it is happening. This landing point is very dangerous. If the pilot cannot handle very nicely, immediately smashed. The crash takes place while going up and coming down, generally. That is due to mismanagement of the pilot. When in the sky it is regular speed and balance, it is going nicely. There is no crisis. All crisis take place while coming down and going up, leaving the land and coming the land. I have seen sometimes, they clap as soon as they . . . (Prabhupāda claps his hands) (laughter) "The danger is over." So ūrdhvam and adhaḥ. Madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ. So in this way, you have to place the subject matter, that the living entity, the soul, is the important thing within this body. Because he's struggling. On account of his ignorance, he's struggling. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). This is his position. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned earlier that not only we have to find out who is the speaker, but who is the proper person to hear the subject matter. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If somebody is interested to know what is the important thing, then he can understand this. And if he's animal, simply eating, sleeping, mating, what he will understand? Animal is not interested to know how the world is going on. He gets his food and sex. That's all. That is animal propensity. And as soon as he comes to the human platform, then inquisitive: " Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa*-traya ," Sanātana Gosvāmī. He's not interested, "How I shall develop my economic position?" He has left already a very high-grade economic position. He's not interested. He's interested, " Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya (CC Madhya 20.102), actually what is my position? Why I am suffering in this material atmosphere?" That is human life. Gurukṛpā: Arjuna asks also many questions. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata. Kārpaṇya-doṣa (BG 2.7). "It was my duty to understand myself, and I am thinking of my these nonsense relatives—my grandfather, my son. What is this? I know that. What I can do by thinking about them? It may be they have come to war. But suppose they would have died naturally—what could I do? So why I am perplexed with these things? I know the defect. I cannot cause their death or birth or existence. It is beyond my jurisdiction. And still, I am anxious—if I kill them, then what would happen? What would happen?" "You kill or not kill, they'll be killed—today or tomorrow." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ (BG 2.11). A learned man knows that the body will be finished, the bodily action, today or tomorrow. So what is to lament after this body? Lamentation is that the person within the body, whether he's going to hell or heaven. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti or tamo gacchanti . That is real concern. Body will be finished, today or tomorrow or after a hundred years. Who can protect it? But one should be interested with the owner of the body, where he is going, what is his next position. And that is clearly stated: adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). So you are interested to go up or down or remain in the same status. There are three status: up, down and the same. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: General mass of people think that life is finished with this body. They're unaware of up or down . . . *Prabhupāda: Therefore . . . therefore, they're rascals. And for the rascals, the Bhagavad*-gītā teaching is there. Learn! They are giving the stress on the body that, "The body is finished, everything finished." They do not know beyond the body. But the real knowledge begins, "No, you are beyond this body." That is real knowledge. That is the beginning of knowledge. Any other knowledge except this, that is ignorance; that is not knowledge. They are accepting ignorance as knowledge. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is the defect. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so essential. They are accepting ignorance as knowledge. Darwin's theory, it is simply speculation on ignorance, and it has been taken as knowledge. Freud's philosophy is the business of the hogs and dogs, and it has been taken as philosophy. Even the hogs and dogs know how to enjoy sex life. And they are . . . on account of sex life, they have written a philosophy. Is that philosophy? Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Find out. The Thirteenth Chapter. Hmm? (discussion as devotees look for verse) Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another line? Prabhupāda: Find out amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntiḥ (BG 13.8), Thirteenth Chapter. *Gurukṛpā: Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam . Prabhupāda: Anyathā . These rascals, they're in ajñānam , dealing with sex life, dealing with the body as their philosophy, science. Dealing with the body and dealing with sex life is the animal business, and they are passing on as philosopher, scientist. This is their position, the whole world. So how much Kṛṣṇa consciousness is important, just imagine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The goal of knowledge is not there. Prabhupāda: They do not know. And animals . . . therefore they are animals. What the dogs will understand? When there is one lady dog, one dozen dog will come, smelling the best part of the body. This is their philosophy. So Freud is that: best part of the body, he's writing philosophy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Books and books. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Just see. This is the position. How low taste—hogs' and pigs' business, and write philosophy. His books are selling like anything. (pause) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if someone can understand that they're not this body, then immediately he should be able to understand that there's a Supersoul. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already told just now. Therefore it is very essential to understand. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the approach used by Kṛṣṇa is essential for any person who wants to understand the Supersoul? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Someone in material consciousness cannot understand God? So then what of all these religions, for example Muslim and Christian religion? Generally speaking, they don't even accept the existence of soul. Prabhupāda: Therefore they're not religion. They're cheating. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (aside to Hari-śauri) Ice box. Prabhupāda: This is not religion, this is cheating. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So simply they're talking about God? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this? Hari-śauri: This is ḍāb juice, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, you can keep that. Simply . . . actually, there is no religion. In the name of religion, some farce is going on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. You've said in the past, "Devil citing scripture." *Prabhupāda: Yes. They're eating meat means they have no even human sense. What is that religion? They have no even sense that, "I am cutting throat of one poor animal under my protection. If somebody cuts my throat, how much I am unhappy? And I'm doing the same business, and I'm human being? How can I call myself a human? I have no sense even of compassion." Cats and dogs are passing on as religionists. Some hogs and pigs are going on as philosopher. And other animals is going as scientist, Darwin. They're animals only—cats and dogs. They are the leader of the society. How you can expect any benefit from them? The leaders themselves are cats and dogs, pigs. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). These leaders, they are saṁstutaḥ , they are very much worshiped. By whom? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ . By the dogs, by the pigs, by the . . . śva-viḍ-varāha , camel, and by the ass. Because these particular names, I have explained in the Bhāgavata . So suppose one man has become lion, and he's praised by dogs, camels, asses and pigs. Naturally, they will praise, "Oh, sir, you are the king." Does it mean he's king? He's animal. So it is going on. They are electing a big animal as president. And when he begins to eat, animal, big animal, then they protest, "Oh, now he's not proper president. Get him down, get him down." But why you sent him? "Because we are pigs. We have no other knowledge. We another . . . appoint another big pig as our president." *So everything is explained in the Vedic literature. If you can present them properly, it will act. The voters are śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara. And the president is another big animal. That's all. This is transaction of animal kingdom. A lion is the king of some asses, pigs, dogs and hogs. What business you can expect there? This is their real picture. One who is a human being, he's seeing that how the animals are enjoying by voting and electing president. But they are thinking, "We are busy in a very great business. We are electing president." (laughter) This is going on. (break) . . . and you say that these rascal pigs, hogs, they elected president, and this president will eat them, and they will understand what kind of president they have elected. This thing is happening in the most advanced country of USA, and what to speak of other animal kingdoms. Even the topmost state at the present moment, there also is happening the same thing. And what to speak of other small states. *Gurukṛpā: If bhakti*-yoga is the . . . one can only understand Kṛṣṇa through bhakti-yoga , why did Kṛṣṇa bother to explain karma-yoga and jñāna-yoga through so many . . . *Prabhupāda: Because there are third*-class men, fourth-class men. They cannot understand bhakti-yoga immediately. But at last He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), if you are intelligent. Sarva-guhyatam . "Real knowledge is here." Sarva-guhyatamam . But He's proposing at last, "If by understanding all other ways, if he has come to know what is the actual knowledge . . ." that is the most confidential knowledge. That is not for everyone. How one can give up karma-yoga , jñāna-yoga , dhyāna-yoga ? They cannot. But Kṛṣṇa says, "This is the most confidential. If you accept this, then it is to be understood you have knowledge." It is not for everyone. Find out this verse. Sixty-three, Eighteenth Chapter, I think. So take these notes, take these books and preach. You have taken all, sannyāsa . You preach. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you . . ." Prabhupāda: It is to be spoken to the most confidential person. "You are My dear friend; I am talking." Other rascals will not understand. It is especially for Arjuna, not for the common man. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ". . . I am speaking to you this most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit." Prabhupāda: "That is special friendship and special love; so I give you this. Keep it confidential." This is real. Other rascals will not value this. They will protest, "Huh? Why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa?" Gurukṛpā: So what is that confidential? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). "So we have spoken so many other things for other rascals. But you are My friend, very intimate. I tell you, this is real fact." So fact is fact. If you take earlier or later, that is different thing. You have to come. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). One has to take many births before coming to this understanding. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . So everyone is not mahātmā even, what to speak of sudurlabhaḥ . (laughs) (end) Conversation -- May 2, 1976, Fiji *Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Everyone sees that, "Some way or other, I become guru . Then so many persons will offer me respect. Somehow or other, create some situation. Then I become guru ." This is going on. Not bona fide guru . Bona fide guru is indicated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā : "Become guru ." Why ambition? Actually become guru . But how to become guru ? Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa ( CC Madhya 7.128). That's it, otherwise goru . So they will not take this simple method. They will drink, they will hunt after woman and have some attractive singing or dancing and become guru . What is meaning of guru , they do not know. Somehow or other become popular and become guru . This is going on. So with māyā you can attract these foolish rascals very easily, if you can manufacture. You cannot, but if you can show some jugglery, then you become guru . People are after all these things, material things. They are not after Kṛṣṇa. They are after money and women. So if you give some mantra , then gold will be manufactured, and all women will be attracted, very first class. Gurukṛpā: You know, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that if anyone has power to induce anybody to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, therefore they must have some special power. Therefore that's their qualification. Prabhupāda: That special power, that is said in the śāstras . But people do not want that. Gurukṛpā: Just like, for example, in Bengal before, there was that Charan das Babaji. He induced them to chant the wrong mantra , but where is . . . he's not specifically paramparā . *Prabhupāda: No. He chanted for some time and, of course, there was chanting of nitāi*-gaura. He introduced new system of chanting: nitāi-gaura rādhe-śyāma . So the nitāi-gaura chanting will have some effect, Kali-yuga. Although he was presenting pervertedly, the beginning was nitāi-gaura, so it would have some effect. He did not know actually Nitāi-Gaura, from his words, it appears. He used to preach that Nitāi is Rādhārāṇī, and Gaura is Kṛṣṇa. That is siddhānta-virodha . But some way or other, he was chanting nitāi-gaura. So some effect were there. Just like sandalwood. You do not know which way better pulp comes out, but if you rub any way some pulp will come, because it is sandalwood. So he had some effect of chanting nitāi-gaura , but later on they deteriorated because they did not know actually, neither they were taught. Siddhānta-virodha. The siddhānta-virodha means it will deteriorate; it will not endure. Gurukṛpā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about, say, many of your Godbrothers? They also have disciples, and they also are properly initiated by a proper spiritual master, and they give the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . *Prabhupāda: The thing is the spirit, real service of preaching, stopped. Formality is going on, but the real business . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement means āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). That is stopped. Do you follow? The formalities is there, but the real life of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is preaching. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa ? Tāra means preach. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). And that is stopped. They are satisfied if they could construct one temple and beg some rice from the neighborhood: "Sir, we have got some temple." That's all. They are satisfied. The spirit of preaching forward— pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo —that is stopped. So by hari-nāma , by chanting, by this way, to live little peacefully in the temple and eat and sleep, that much they have got. If that is the success, that success they have got. And this was condemned by my Guru Mahārāja, that "To earn some money by showing Deity in the temple and eat and sleep—better you become a sweeper in the street and earn your honest livelihood and live." This is cheating. This was condemned. To construct a temple . . . just like the Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs are doing. They thought that "This is our business. Some innocent people will come here and offer some . . . bās , that's our good income." According to the temple's popularity, they think, "This is our success." Therefore they are deteriorating. So that is not success. Success is he is who is pushing forward the preaching method. That is his success. And if we think that "By showing a temple Deity we get some money and rice and cloth and just peacefully live here. Don't bother about going to Fiji and all over . . ." (laughs) That much success they have got. But that is not Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, sarvatra pracāra . (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126) What they are doing for that? That is point. Gurukṛpā: What if sometimes a disciple, he may go to preach, but he's not preaching in the exact same spirit of his spiritual master? *Prabhupāda: Therefore he is not to be preached. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41): "Go to do good to others, first of all you do good to yourself." First of all you become really preacher. Then go to preach. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never sent neophyte to go to preach. For neophyte the preaching is not their business. For neophyte, one should stick to the worship of Deity in the temple. And those who have understood the philosophy, applied the philosophy in his life, he should go for preaching. Otherwise he'll preach wrongly, like . . . what is that? Charan das Babaji. And it will stop. He wanted to preach, but he did not know how to preach, and therefore, after his life, it is finished. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not say like that, that "You remain a rascal and go to preach." No. Janma sārthaka kari . "Your first business is that you make your life perfect. Then go to preach. 'Perfect' means you learn how to obey My orders." That is perfection. Āmāra ājñāya. So if you are actually, perfectly carrying out the orders of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then you are preaching. Otherwise you will do wrongly, mislead. Don't do that. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If you remain blind, don't try to lead other blind men. That is misleading. First of all open your eyes. Everything is there. Nobody can do anything whimsically. If you do whimsically, concoctedly, that will be failure. It will not be effective. Gurukṛpā: Even though one may get many followers, that is not . . . *Prabhupāda: Many? What you . . .? Many followers . . . the philosophy you present, it must be followed by everyone. That is wanted. You have got, say, ten thousand followers. That does not mean success. Everyone has got some followers. This . . . what is that? Guru*-ji Maharaja. He has got also so-called followers. The T.M., he has got also some followers. Everyone has got some followers. But what kind of followers they have? That is quality. Everything has quality. Simply quantity is not. There are many Christians. Even up to date, some Christian fair or . . . many millions will come. What is the quality? Quality is all meat-eater. But Christian means he should not kill. Where is the Christian? So we have to test by the quality, followers. Not many followers; the quality of the followers. My Guru Mahārāja used to say like that, that "If I get at least one quality disciple, then all my labor will be success." He was saying like that: quality, not the quantity. By quantity if one is amazed, then he is also goru . By quality—what kind of followers? That is the . . . from the very beginning my strictures are there that, "You have to follow this"—quality. If I were . . . "No, you can do like Vivekananda. Yes, what you can, whatever you like," then I think quantity would have been very, very big. But I don't say. I make him promise before the fire, before the Deity, before guru . (break) *That one moon is taken into account. Who takes account of millions of stars? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). Quality. So we should be quality devotee, not quantity devotee. (drinking) Hmm. I have taken two glasses. Just see how nice water is, ḍāb (unripe coconut) water. Here so many ḍābs are available, and this rascal is manufacturing RC (Royal Crown cola), and he is going as to be . . . as business. And for hearing Bhagavad*-gītā they have no time, and they are trying to go to Vṛndāvana. Quantity, not quality. So civilization should be quality civilization, not quantity civilization. Do that. Bheḍyadāsana. Bheḍyadāsana. Bheḍī , lamb, they are going, hundreds and thousands flocks. So, and if one bheḍī , lamb, is somehow or other pushed into slaughterhouse stockroom, so all the . . . all of them. You haven't got to take many. Some way or other, you induce one of them to go into the, what is called, shed, where stocks are kept for taking out daily and killing. So they do not mind that "We are being pushed into this room for future killing. Never mind. One has gone. Go." They'll go. So this is called, in Hindi, bheḍyadāsana , that without any consideration, "One has entered. Let us all enter." That is bheḍī , means animal. Their disciple like this. (pause) Prabhupāda: They liked the ceremony? Gurukṛpā: I think we should tell . . . Vāsudeva dāsa is getting his brahmin thread this afternoon? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: Are you giving him his brahmin initiation this afternoon? Prabhupāda: He has come? Gurukṛpā: No. Prabhupāda: We can do that tomorrow. So it has been settled where we are going? Gurukṛpā: Well, I have to go to the airport this evening. Prabhupāda: No, with Vāsudeva. Gurukṛpā: Yes. He is . . . he thought it was best. Prabhupāda: Don't do anything . . . Gurukṛpā: No, it was his suggestion, because he doesn't want it to be another small program. He feels . . . Prabhupāda: This is also cold water? Hari-śauri: It was. It's still cold. Prabhupāda: Darwin's theory is body is changing, but why it is changing, he does not explain. Gurukṛpā: He said it's the course of nature. You can't explain nature. That's his only answer. Prabhupāda: Nature . . . but we also say, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). So it is to be understood that it is being done under superior control. If nature is doing, so nature is superior control. He cannot explain. So if he does not know how nature is working, then what is the value of his theory? If he says that he cannot explain how nature is doing, that means he is not expert. He may be mistaken. So why his opinion or decision should be taken final? He does not know how nature is working. That is not perfect knowledge. Does he say like that, "Nature is working"? Gurukṛpā: Nature. *Prabhupāda: So how nature is working, he does not know. Then his knowledge is imperfect. Nature is working how, that we know. That is very sober understanding. We say that nature is working under the superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). Nature . . . we see nature. Generally we have got idea of the material nature, that the sun is one of the part and parcel of nature's working. The moon is also, the seasonal changes. So many things, nature is working very systematically. The summer season will appear exactly in the month of June and July. The fall begins in September every year. One can foretell that, "Next September this will happen," because nature's routine is very fixed up. So this systematic work of nature, how it is possible if there is no supervision? Gurukṛpā: What they do is they just take it for granted, because it's happening so regularly. *Prabhupāda: So that means you have to accept it—there is superior administration. You may not know what is that administration, but you have to accept it. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa says: "Under My supervision." Here those who are in the gross ignorance, not intelligent, they can suggest that there is some brain, just like Professor Einstein used to say. But he has no knowledge who is that brain, and we have that knowledge, who is that brain. That brain is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore our knowledge is perfect. They can simply suggest that, "There is a brain," but we can say: "Here is the brain." Then it is . . . if one knows whose brain it is, that is perfect knowledge. Gurukṛpā: But they have no faith. That's the only difficulty. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. You accept some brain. But if somebody comes who is accepted as the brain, they have no faith. That means rascal. Nārada says: "Here is the brain." Brahmā says: "Here is the brain." Śiva says: "Here is the brain." Then ācāryas , Vyāsadeva, says: "Here is the brain." Then modern ācāryas , they say, "Here is the brain." Then why don't you accept? You are so rascal? Just like a person is going to London. So if he says: "I have no faith that this Quantas will carry me to London," then how he will be convinced? How he'll be? If he says that, "I have no faith in this Quantas company, that it will carry me to London," and if he does not purchase the ticket—he has no faith—then who will be loser? The Quantas company will be loser or he will be loser? Hmm? Gurukṛpā: He's the loser. Prabhupāda: The rascal who says . . . you can say that, that Quantas will carry him to London. You can say that. But if on account of his wrong faith if he does not purchase the ticket, then who will be loser? The Quantas will be loser or he will be loser? If you have no faith, then you are loser. You remain. Rot in this place. Do not try to go to London. What do you think? Eh? Indian man (1): The traveler is the loser. Prabhupāda: What is that? Gurukṛpā: The traveler is the loser. Prabhupāda: Yes, traveler is the loser. If you have no faith, then loser. You are loser. You will never understand. Therefore śāstra says, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Big, big stalwart ācāryas , mahājanas , they are accepting; therefore we accept. That is sense. And if you sit down, "No, no, I have no faith," you'll sit down and remain a rascal, that's all. Ādau śraddhā . Therefore faith is the first thing. Ādau śraddhā . If he has got intelligence, he'll see: "So many big, big . . . Lord Brahmā accepts. Lord Śiva accepts. Vyāsadeva accepts. Nārada accepts. The ācāryas accept. So am I more than them? No. I will accept." And that is perfection of . . . mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). And if still you remain faithless, then you are rascal. Same example can be . . . Qantas. So many hundreds are purchasing ticket. They have also never seen London, but on faith they're purchasing ticket. So you have no faith, you don't purchase—therefore remain here. Without faith you cannot begin to work. The same example, you have gone to a barber shop. He is shaving, and people blindly closing eyes, and he has got a razor. He can immediately cut. But why do you do this? Because you have faith that, "These people are professional barbers. They are shaving so many other people. They will not kill me. All right. Go on." This is faith. And if you have no faith, then you will never have clean shaven. You go away. *So beginning is faith, but faith should not be blind. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). You have to take faith from great personalities. That is faith. Just like you American boys and girls, you began with faith. Without faith nothing can be . . . ādau śraddhā . Just like people come, and they get some faith that, "So many people are following Swāmījī." So he associates for some time, then he offers himself for initiation. This is the way. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu*-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā (CC Madhya 23.14). And bhajana-kriyā , if he agrees with spiritual master and takes his word, then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt . Spiritual master says: "You should not do this," and if he follows, then automatically his unnecessary burden is cleansed. This is the way. But faith is the beginning. And that is quite natural. Faith means by seeing others, respectable persons, following, "And why not I shall follow?" That is faith. That is not also blind. You can see that so many others are doing, "So why not I myself?" Gurukṛpā: This faith in the mundane religions, that cannot be called real faith? *Prabhupāda: No, that is faith, but because one is not intelligent, he takes irreligion as religion. He does not . . . he should be also very intelligent, faithful and intelligent. Not blind faith. He must be faithful, and intelligence . . . he must know what is actually religion. So therefore sādhu*-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83). Associate with sādhus means those who are actually on the platform. So if he associates with the sādhu —the sādhus accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead—he will get the understanding that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. Then his faith becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. This is the way. Gurukṛpā: So what is the exact meaning of that verse, śraddhā-śabde ? That verse . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, śraddhā . That faith increase, and when it is increased so much that he fully understands, "By worshiping Kṛṣṇa, everything is done," that is first*-class faith. Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya (CC Madhya 22.62). If he becomes fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is first class, means fulfillment of faith. In the beginning it might be doubtful, neophyte. But when that is . . . that faith is fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is the fulfillment of faith. Faith also there are different stages, improvement. Devotional service means different grades of faith. Today I am in one stage of faith, next day another stage, next day another stage, next day another stage. And when you come to the stage that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), oh, that is final. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That takes time. And quickly also, if one is fortunate. If one is intelligent—"The śāstra says: 'Vāsudeva is everything,' so why not take Vāsudeva as everything?"—then he gains the result immediately. And if he thinks, "All right, let me see for some time," so he may waste his time, but the point is the same. Point is the same, but he has not developed his faith to such extent. He'll have to wait. And intelligent person, he says: "Why shall I wait? Let me take finally vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). That business is finished." Sa mahātmā . Therefore it is said, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. *That kind of staunch faith is not very easy. It is for the great personality. Immediately accepts. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Immediately accepts: "Yes." Then sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is not very easily done. That means yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām (BG 7.28). He is completely free from all reaction of sinful life. Puṇya-karmaṇām —he is only engaged in pious activities. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānām, te dvandva-moha . . . he has no more, I mean, doubt. Dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ . He has no doubt, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person." That's it. That's all. If you take by argument, reason, you may waste your time. But if you are intelligent, you can take it on the evidence of mahājano yena gataḥ , all the mahājanas . They are mahājanas . "Prahlāda has taken, Bhīṣmadeva has taken, Janaka Mahārāja has taken, Lord Brahmā has taken, Lord Śiva has taken, Nārada has taken, Kapila has taken . . . what I am?" (laughs) That is intelligence. "Why I am waiting on my intelligence?" That is real. But this rascal is thinking more than Brahmā, Nārada, Kapila, Prahlāda. He is thinking he is more than them. That means rascal, overintelligent. Overintelligent means rascal. Intelligence means you must have reason. And if he is going beyond reason, only depending on himself, then he is overintelligent rascal. You understand overintelligent rascal? Don't be overintelligent. That is very risky. Be intelligent. Overintelligent means rascal. Spoiling. Just like milk: you are heating, and if you give overheat, spoil so many. That kind of heating is not required. You just push on heat as much required. Otherwise you'll spoil by your intelligence. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? They say that one should try to . . . in order to approach the spiritual master one must . . . Prabhupāda: Purchase? Devotee (2): Approach. Approach. Prabhupāda: Ah, approach. Devotee (2): One must become perfect disciple. One must approach a perfect spiritual master, and he must become perfect disciple. Could you explain that, please? Prabhupāda: Yes. He should follow spiritual master. Then he is perfect disciple. (aside) Bring water with ice. Devotee (2): So some . . . this Gauḍīya Maṭha . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- May 3, 1976, Fiji Prabhupāda: . . . they used to discover, whole method is finished. Hari-śauri: Oh, yeah. During the war. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Yes. So sinful means punishment . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Our point is that we are going to live in the future. So if, becoming modern, we forget our future, then what is the use of becoming modernized? Better remain primitive. The business is that in future also we shall exist. If we do not know how we shall exist—either I shall exist as a cat, as a dog or a tree or a demigod or as associate of Kṛṣṇa . . . if I do not know . . . on account of being modernized, if I remain in darkness about my future, so it is better to remain primitive. What is the use of becoming modernized and forget myself and my future? Becoming modernized, if I become dog in future, so where is the use of modernized? Real business is that I shall take care of my future, especially in the human form of body. Cats and dogs, they do not know about future. If I know there is future, I have a future . . . this is also said by Kṛṣṇa: tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ ( BG 2.13): "In future." Not this body, another body. So is it not my first business, to prepare what is my future body? That is my first business? Or to drink RC (Royal Crown cola) my first business? (laughter) Just see, by drinking RC if I, next life I become a dog, then what is the use of modernized life? And if we, by remaining in primitive state, we can produce Vyāsadeva, oh, it is better. But the fools have no sense. Suppose if I go to some place for some business, and going there, to select my hotel, which hotel I shall enter, I remain busy to find out the hotel and I forget the business for which I have gone there, then am I not madman? The human life is meant for deciding his future. If we do not care for the future, and if I want to become modernized from primitive life, is that very good inclination? Real business forgotten, but I am busy with modernized life. That example I give sometimes, śajte śajte dol phurolo, mane (The Holi fair was over while she kept dressing means,) that one has to go to see a fair on account of Dol yatra (Festival of colors.) So women, they generally dress themself very nicely. So the woman said to his friend that, "Let me dress." So dressing, dressing, dressing. In the meantime, the fair finished. So the modern civilization is like that . . . śajte śajte dol phurolo. (The Holi fair was over while she kept dressing.) I have to go to see the fair, but I became so much attentive in dressing that in the meantime news came, "The fair is finished." That is our civilization. A human life is meant for preparing for the next life. That is sensible. But I am so much busy in manufacturing things for modernized life—RC, TC, PC and so on, so on. *In future, at the time of death, I begin to bark and I think, "Oh . . ." And nature will say: "Alright, come on." "No, no, I'm not going to . . ." No, why not? You have become modernized, barking like dog. So you bark. Who will check that? Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā . . . (BG 7.14). Māyā will take consideration, "What you have made yourself, a dog or god?" That she will take account. If you have made yourself a dog, "Just come on, become a dog." If you have made yourself as god, then "Come on, you'll be demigod." That is for everything. Otherwise why there are varieties? There is dog life and there is demigod life, Indra life. It is not one-sided. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), it is not one-sided. You have to change your body. And there are varieties of life, so it is up to you what kind of body you have got. You can change your body up to the point of becoming associate of Kṛṣṇa. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25). Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma . . . (BG 15.6). These informations are there. So if you have to prepare for the next life, why not go back to home, back to Godhead? Yad gatvā na nivartante . This is intelligent? Or to become modernized and become a dog next life. Which is intelligent? The śāstra says: "No, this is intelligent." What? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). This life should be utilized for tapasya , to purify your existence. That is the śāstra . Śāstra does not say you become modernized. What is this modernized? Simply waste of time. Gurukṛpā: Polished. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: Polished dogs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Actual modernized means how far you have advanced in spiritual consciousness. That is wanted. It does not taste exactly ḍāl , I think, due to this new water in it. So is there any engagement? Gurukṛpā: Today? Prabhupāda: Somebody was to come? Gurukṛpā: Was to come, but . . . Prabhupāda: He is not coming. Who is not modernized? They will go to the dancing party for their salvation. (laughter) Dog dance. Gurukṛpā: Today is Sunday. Everyone is busy with their family—family, society. Prabhupāda: You know this Ravi Shankar? *Gurukṛpā: Umm*-hmm. *Prabhupāda: His elder brother, Uday Shankar, he became very famous man as a dancer, all over the world. Uday Shankar. And by imitating his brother, the Ravi Shankar also tried to become first*-class sitarist. So family . . . (break) . . . was a little famous for artistic. So that Uday Shankar was dancing in the Indian way, and there are many sculpture of dancing like that. That was his art. So he became famous. Gurukṛpā: He's not living? He's dead? Prabhupāda: No, he's dead means now he's old man. He's about my age or little older than me. Now his skin has become slackened and body is not so strong to dance. It requires exercise. Therefore he's retired, I think maybe dead. But I don't hear his name. He was more or less known in Europe as Shankar. But he was so popular that one my doctor friend . . . he was educated in London, a medical officer of Allahabad. So he told me that, "I saw that in Paris, Uday Shankar's dancing was advertised, and hundreds and thousands of people from England going to Paris, crossing the Channel to see him dance." He showed me. He's so popular. And now nobody asks for him. (laughs) Gurukṛpā: Another bubble. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: Another bubble popped. I remember when Ravi Shankar and George Harrison came to see you in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: The first thing you asked them was, "You are very famous, but what will you be next life? What is your guarantee for the next life?" Prabhupāda: Yes. I told him. Gurukṛpā: And I don't think any other guru would have asked that. Prabhupāda: Where is guru ? Goru , you say goru . When it is pronounced guru , I say, you say, don't say guru , but you say goru . Gurukṛpā: Goru . Prabhupāda: Goru , no. Do you know goru ? Goru means cow. Gurukṛpā: Cow. (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughing) Otherwise they're going to find out, then don't say goru. Guru . Gurukṛpā: Guru . *Prabhupāda: Goru means cow. Śrī*-goru-caraṇa-padma. Śrī-goru. (laughs) So they're all gorus , nobody guru . Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: All rascals. Now that Ravi Shankar has become George guru . Somebody . . . you were telling me? That this boy has been taught to take the dust of the feet of Ravi Shankar in the stage, and people did not like it. So he has become unpopular accepting a goru . (end) Conversation -- May 4, 1976, Honolulu Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . just on the Sunday easily. Charge them . . . you know, like in Los Angeles, we used to charge a dollar a . . . Prabhupāda: The loan will be clear very soon. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. They have a . . . they are very expert at financing now, these . . . the men who are in charge now. They're claiming that within two or three months all of the debt will be completely cleared. They have a plan, very easily. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) He is the right person. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And the restaurant is very successful. Also, they have not advertised that, but every day at least about fifty people come for the lunch, and at least another seventy, eighty people come in the evening for dinner. For a full meal each person pays an average of about $2.50. Prabhupāda: That's cheap. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All you can eat for two dollars . . . Prabhupāda: And for public it is very cheap. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very inexpensive. And if they advertise it, they won't be able to handle all the people that will come. It's such a central location. Prabhupāda: It will be automatically advertised. When people will say: "Oh, there is a nice ISKCON restaurant, and it is so cheap and so nice," people will come. Just like in our Vṛndāvana temple, we don't advertise. Of course, that's . . . people are coming by thousands. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Same here. Prabhupāda: I thought that so long distance from the city, nobody will come. But Balarāma is so powerful, He's bringing, "Come out here." (laughter) Otherwise, I was . . . what is that? Plowing? Yamunā was threatened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Balarāma. Prabhupāda: And the whole Kuru dynasty was threatened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good class of people are coming to the restaurant—businessmen, like that. Prabhupāda: And there is book display? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, there's a book display. Prabhupāda: They are purchasing book also? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They give them a Back to Godhead , complimentary copy . . . Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . with the meal. And then they also purchase books. The buses are going on nicely. All the buses are out. Two more buses are being made now. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are adding two more. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Well, we had almost finished two. They'll be added in June, so that will make eight, a total of eight. And they're having a normal program going on nicely. And Madhudviṣa Mahārāja also went to visit the other temples. He said in Boston they've gotten . . . (aside) I think they've already gotten it, right? That restaurant? Ambarīṣa Prabhu has gotten the most wonderful restaurant there, just around the corner from the temple. So it will be very, very high class restaurant, with waiters, and . . . Prabhupāda: Now, this New York restaurant being organized, other restaurant will follow. *Gurukṛpā: This restaurant down here, I just was there. Gaura*-Govinda, he's the one who decorated it. First class. People really like it. Prabhupāda: From the very beginning I was asking to open restaurant and farm. Produce ghee in the farm and send to the restaurant, and make nice samosā, kachorī preparation, and there will be no scarcity of money. And if you organize in this way, your whole country will be transferred into Kṛṣṇa conscious country. Whole country. So, what about your China program? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we went to New York to meet with Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja's father, and he was very helpful. We approached him in a frank way, and he immediately got the help of his office. He's the president of this Far East American Council. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And not only China, this is for all of Asia. It includes as . . . some of the persons belonging to it are the . . . just like the chairman of Coca*-Cola, the Bankers Trust Company first vice-president, all of the big banks, Bank of America senior vice-president, First National City Bank vice-president, all of these men. Prabhupāda: So you can contract with all big, big men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And he's the president of the council. Prabhupāda: His father? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then he is very influential man. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very. So he immediately got . . . Prabhupāda: So you should be like father, like son. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has the same name. It's just "Junior" at the end, so they know him. Prabhupāda: No, intelligence also. Father's intelligence he must inherit. There is an Indian proverb, bāpakā beṭā sepāikā ghoḍā, kucha nehi to thoḍā thoḍā means, "The father's son and the soldier's horse, they acquire the quality, if not all, some; must." If one is good soldier, his horse is also trained up. There is a history in India. The horse has played heroic. The Queen of Jhansi's horse and this, our, what is called, Shivaji's horse, they have played unique part in the history. Sepāikā ghoḍā . It is animal, but because it is the horse of a famous hero, it has played. Similarly, the son of father must be as good as father. If not, to some extent. Yes. So you are the . . . your father is the leader of so many big, big businessmen. You also become leader. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: For Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: For Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. And you have got the intelligence. I have seen. I have studied you. Now you combine. Both of you, you are intelligent. You turn the whole America Kṛṣṇa conscious. Bās . Then success all over the world. America is the leader of the nations. Now, if the America becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then our movement is perfectly successful. And you have got the potency in America. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These men are all in Asia, though. His father's biggest concern . . . see, his father . . . the company is divided into two: the American branch of Seagrams, and the overseas, which incorporates the whole world outside of America. His father is the president of overseas. So his father has all connections with all of the embassies overseas, all of the big corporations overseas. Prabhupāda: So all these big, big men, let them have one set of books and study. It is not any expenditure for them, but if at their leisure hour they read some of the line—they are all intelligent men—they'll get ideas, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So through the influence of father, just try to introduce our books to these big men. It is not . . . they may keep them in library, and at leisure hour, if they simply glance over the line, oh, it will be great success. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And their sons will also read it. Prabhupāda: Their sons also will read. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Already my father has noticed in his travels that some of his friends, their sons have joined our movement now too. Prabhupāda: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ, lokas tad anuvartate ( BG 3.21). If these big men of the world, they take it, "Oh, yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine," then naturally it will be followed by the others. So here is a good opportunity to contact big men of the world. So utilize it properly. You . . . both of you are intelligent. Very cautiously deal with them. They will understand that, "Oh, these people are very honest men of character and high knowledge and God conscious." That will make our movement success. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His father has been giving us . . . of course, it was . . . we have been approaching him through the aspect of doing business in China. His father is encouraging us in the sense that he is seeing Dhṛṣṭadyumna . . . like whenever we visit him, we come in our suits, and his father is seeing that . . . he is encouraging him also because he's taking some . . . what he calls a very, what would you say, a responsible position, attempting to do some business. So he's been giving us letters on his company's letterhead. Just like this is a letter to the director of the Department of Commerce of the United States. We've seen a number of people. We've been visiting different directors. First thing we did when we went back is, after meeting him, we got many books on China. Some of the examples are, just like this. We read about twenty*-five books. We've studied up very thoroughly and researched everything about China. Here is a book, The Religious Policy and Practice in Communist China . It describes everything about religion there. So we thoroughly read this book. Then there's other books, books on education, we read books on history . . . Prabhupāda: Chinese people, they are trying to raise their standard of civilization. Do they? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they . . . their philosophy is called dialectic materialism. They want to advance materially, and they . . . we have prepared one report of an interview with the president of a committee on United States and China relations. He's one of the leading experts in China. So after researching and studying all the educational, the libraries, all the different functions in China, we went and spoke with this gentleman. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: First we got a lot of information ourselves, so we'd be knowledgeable. We read for one month. We got . . . we wrote away to all the councils, we got hundreds of books like this, special reports about China. We read them, and then we went to meet this man, because he is the most knowledgeable, expert person on China in the United States. And we made up a report which we wanted to read to you, because it gives everything very nicely. It tells what China is doing now, and what our program can be for book distribution. Prabhupāda: No, what is their aim? After studying all these books, what do you think? What is the aim of China? What is the objective they are making progress towards? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their aim is that everyone should be materially comfortable. That no one . . . there should be no . . . Prabhupāda: In that case, they should, if they have got sense . . . just like in the whole world, these American people are materially comfortable. But why they are producing hippies now? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They see this as a fault of the system, capitalism. They say that capitalism means the enjoyment of the few at the . . . Prabhupāda: Materialism means capitalism. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, they want communistic materialism. In other words, by creating, forming communes, everyone will get equal portion of food and bedding and clothing and medicine. Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact. A man's tendency is that everyone wants to get more. So how they will check it? This is already proved in Russia. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They condemn Russia. They say Russia is a failure. Prabhupāda: And similarly, they will have to condemn. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's our conclusion. Prabhupāda: If they follow the wrong path, they will have the wrong result. This is not . . . *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their leader, Mao Tse*-tung, he was very austere, and he is very moral, and he has these purges where he takes the men who he sees are not . . . or who are trying to use their position for their own power, and he takes it away from them. And they are constantly going through these purges of their system to insure that no one enjoys more than others, at the expense of others. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Artificial, though. Prabhupāda: So that is artificial way of. Unless one is prepared to . . . just like why they are inducing persons to sacrifice their accumulated wealth for the state? Why? Communistic idea that everyone should be equal. So if somebody has more than others, they want to take it away. Just like in India this policy is now growing. So everyone should give away, but now it is being done by law, by force. But that will not stay. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We agree. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We also agree it's a failure. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is bound to fail. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you voluntarily give, it will be failure. You will try to find out ways how you can take everything . . . just like income tax. The government is trying to take more money from the public, and public is hiding them in black market. This is going on. Nobody is . . . even your Nixon, he also hidden some money from the income tax. Why? He is the head of the government. So one side, he is head of the government, try to take money from the public, but he personally, himself, he is hiding. Why this defect? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will say that the system encourages man's greed, whereas their system . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, system . . . if the . . . you cannot change the mind. If you have got mind to enjoy more, by force if I try to force you not to enjoy more, give to the state, this is a struggle. This is not perfect process. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that that will be corrected by education. Prabhupāda: Education . . . that means what is that education? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that the . . . they don't . . . of course, we say education means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Education means they must learn to sacrifice everything for the topmost. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they say the topmost is the general mass of everyone, the proletariat, all people combined. *Prabhupāda: That's all right, general. But you know how to make general mass of people happy. That example we give, that the whole body . . . you can make the whole body happy simply by supplying food to the stomach. That is the best way. And if you want to make happy every part of the body individual, that will never be successful. You must know where to touch. Just like the huge machine is going on by the expert manipulation of the pilot. He is pushing one works, immediately the plane becomes . . . it is . . . so you must know where to touch. If I am layman, I am put into that, then, instead of putting here, I shall put my here, and then it will go down, immediately " ohn*-ohn-ohn ," finished. So this is nature's way, that you supply food to the stomach, and the energy will be distributed every part. You supply water to the root of the tree, it will be supplied everywhere. That you must know. Otherwise, if you . . . just like if you do not know, a expert, not expert, so he's advised, "Give to, the food to the stomach." "And in where?" "No, in the hole of the body." If he does not, which hole, then he will put somewhere, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here. It will never act. Then you must know the science how to make everyone happy. If you do not know that, then your imperfect imagination will never be done, and that has become everywhere. Why there is difference of opinion even both of the communistic countries? Why there is difference of opinion between Russia and China? Because both of you do not know how to make everyone happy. That is the point. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: China has achieved great material strides in the last twenty years. There is no prostitution. They have wiped out flies, no more flies causing disease. There is . . . and they look to a very bitter past of exploitation at the hand of foreigners and internal civil war and great suffering and starvation. So when they look back over twenty years they see, "Oh, we have advanced greatly." So they are very satisfied. Prabhupāda: No, if they actually progressing, they will have to come to that point—that is natural—where, placing your service, you can serve everyone. That is the right conclusion. But we have got that right conclusion. If you take from us, you can make immediately. But if you want to wait by your research work, then you can waste your time. But you have to come to this point. That is a fact. Just like you have to give food to the mouth. If you do not know, out of rascaldom you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment . . . there are so many holes. You go on experimenting, and waste your time. But unless you come to this point that, "Food has to be supplied here," your all attempt will be failure. That you have to tell them. And because you cannot supersede nature's way . . . nature's way is, "The food must go through here." You cannot change it. You are not above nature. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They say that you can become above nature. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That will make them failure. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Oh, yes, they will fail. *Prabhupāda: That will make them failure. Tell them, then this will make them failure, "If you are so foolish that you want to go above nature, then you are fool number one." Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is not possible. That is not possible. Then you are following wrong path. If you are imagining like that, that "We have surpassed the laws of nature," then you are fool number one. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In that respect they are like the Americans and Russians. They think that we can overcome the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are just like the Americans and Russians in the same way. They are thinking we can overcome the stringent laws of nature. Prabhupāda: No, that is the foolishness. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). So long they will have this impression that they can overcome the laws of nature they will continue to become mūḍha . Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, another problem . . . Prabhupāda: In which way you have surpassed nature? First of all, if you are thinking like that, in which way you have surpassed the nature? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say: "For example, before we began our agricultural development, there was very poor agricultural produce all over the country due to lack of proper water. Now we have laid huge irrigation systems, and there is no more drought." Prabhupāda: Therefore that is nature's way. Nature supplies you water. That is nature's way. That means you are making perfect according to the nature's way. But nature give you water; you produce profusely. But if you want to go above the nature, you produce without water. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) It can't be done. Prabhupāda: Then we shall see that you have surpassed the laws of . . . the laws of nature is there must be water. Nature is supplying. And you are trying to imitate. But if you say that, "We can overpass the nature's law," then you produce without water. Then you'll be able. Then we shall see that you have gone above . . . this, you are following the nature's. That is not surpassing. That is following little properly. "Now you have arranged for water. That's very good. But if nature pours water, then you save so much labor. Do you know that, how nature will supply water profusely? You haven't got to make artificial arrangement for water. Do you know that?" Ask them. We know that. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Formerly their society was very much like the Vedic culture. There was the emperor and the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it was . . . the Chinese people were coming, taking knowledge from . . . everyone was coming. So now argument that, "If you are . . . you are following the nature's way. Nature supply water. That is a fact. Here is cloud. Nature will supply. Now, if you want to surpass nature, then you produce in the factory, without water, food grains. Then we shall understand that you can surpass. As you are producing instruments and so many other motorcars and this, that, so many, in the factory, that's all right. In the factory you produce food grains without water. Then you have surpassed nature." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can't do it. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No one can do it. Prabhupāda: Then where is the question of surpassing nature? Make them fool in every point, these rascals, by argument. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Unfortunately, they do not teach any philosophy anymore. They have done away with all . . . Prabhupāda: This is not philosophy. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. This is science. Prabhupāda: This philosophy, it is science. Without water you cannot produce. This is science. This is not imagination. So if you want to surpass nature, then you do practically. Why should you try to bring canal water or well water? Don't bring. You cannot surpass the laws of nature. That has to be accepted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their main point is that they want to manipulate expertly the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: That means let them waste their time. Therefore it requires many births to understand this law. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they're going away from this kind of understanding. They had a heritage of philosophical understanding, correct philosophical . . . they were very . . . for instance, their whole system during the time of Confucius . . . up until two or three hundred years ago their system was they had a monarchy, a king, an emperor, and the emperor was believed to be the representative of God. Prabhupāda: That is good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And it was Vedic. They had a brahmin community—they called them scholars—who were advising. And they had administrators, and they had workers. Now the current Communists, they are against that system. They say this system was the worst system of all because it made some big and some small. Because naturally it became . . . Prabhupāda: But you are doing the same thing. Otherwise, why you are reforming? Who is reforming unless the one class is very intelligent? The same system. You . . . your . . . what is your rascal's name? *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Mao Tse*-tung. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mao. Mao. Prabhupāda: So he is supposed to be intelligent. He is supposed to be intelligent. So the two classes already there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he says everyone can be equally intelligent. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But these classes must remain there—the teacher class and the student class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's what they do. They take the teachers . . . this is one of their programs. Actually, we have written a report which explains. They take the teachers, and they send the teachers out into the factory and into the farms for years. Prabhupāda: So anywhere you send, the student and teacher class is there. You change the name, you change the process, it doesn't matter, but the student class and teacher class will always remain. That is your foolishness. You are simply changing different names. But originally, as planned by nature, that is always there. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They say let the factory worker teach the teacher. Prabhupāda: Anyway, teacher class, rascal, it is teacher class. You make a teacher class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say everyone should be teachers. Prabhupāda: That "Should be" means not. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they are making everyone teachers. Prabhupāda: And this "making" means not. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They are trying to make. Prabhupāda: That is all right. The classes, two classes, are there. You cannot change that. "trying," "making," means two. Hari-śauri: It's artificial. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like they let the students teach the teachers. Prabhupāda: That's right. So the teachers . . . sometimes you become teacher, sometimes I become teacher. What is this? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're trying to create a society where there are no superior*-inferior. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Classless society. Prabhupāda: They are taking themselves the superior position to make equal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Yes. That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like some of the rascal svāmīs come here that "There is no teacher of . . . no require teacher, no need of books." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then why do we need them? Prabhupāda: And these rascals are writing books, that "There is no need of book." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That happened. One svāmī said: "Now you . . . meditation means don't think of anything." So then one of our men at the meeting raised his hand and said: "Then why do we need you?" So he got very angry. He said: "If the mind should do nothing, what do we need you for?" Prabhupāda: So what was his reply? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He told his men to usher our man out. His men got very agitated because there was no reply. He couldn't give a reply. So they asked our man to leave for disturbing the sleeping of the public. Prabhupāda: Anyway, the whole world is rascal. They will manufacture and spoil time, their own time and others' time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, we did a report telling . . . we wanted to read this to you. It gives you an idea of what are the possibilities of spreading your books or Kṛṣṇa consciousness in China. We made up a report for you. Do you want to hear it? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, you want to read it, Dhṛṣṭadyumna? 'Cause it is actually very useful, if not now, in the future of our Soc . . . this report is based on a lot of research. Read. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . that if they are rascals, then don't try. You see? Reject them. But there is good potency in your country. You do peacefully here. If they are rascals, means stubborn rascals . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You cannot imagine how rascal they are. That's why we wrote this report. I mean . . . Prabhupāda: Then don't try. Don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a . . . the Christians, they have a boat two hundred miles off the China coast, and they put little Bibles in cellophane bags and let the Bibles float into China. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Balloons. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Balloons. That's how hard it is to preach there. Prabhupāda: That is also nonsense. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's nonsense, but I mean the point is how difficult it is. We have . . . *Prabhupāda: Then don't try. Don't waste time. Don't try. Better try in your country. You have got enough field, and they are intelligent and they are favorable. So why should we waste our time? There is no need. If you make your country, America, God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious—they are already—that will be example to the whole world. These men, rascals' program, will be failure, finished, this, today or tomorrow. They'll never be successful. It is not . . . that is not possible. If they have so foolishly declared that, "We are going above the laws of nature," they're first*-class rascals, which is impossible. What they have conquered over the nature? These rascals will not die? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they'll still die. *Prabhupāda: Then? Then what is this? The rascals will not become old men? So what they have surpassed, laws of nature? What way? Simply making the teachers student and student teacher. Simply wasting time. Better you utilize your father's position, but for introducing our books to these high*-class men. Just you are trying to introduce books in the university libraries, similarly, you try to introduce these books to the high class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (aside to Dhṛṣṭadyumna) Do you think your father would give letters of introduction . . .? Prabhupāda: And that is not difficult. These men, they have got enough money. If they spend one thousand dollar for our books, that is nothing for them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of your disciples, Praghoṣa, he's the biggest book distributor, practically. Tripurāri trained him up. He is now starting a program of meeting with these executives and doing just this. He is working in New York, and he's developing a program like this. Prabhupāda: Now in India also they are trying. Yaśomatī . . . Yaśodānandana's report is that he approached one head librarian in Andhra Pradesh and . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Karnataka. Prabhupāda: Karnataka. Karnataka province, educated province, Karnataka, South India, Karnataka, very educated. So he has immediately ordered thirty sets of books in different libraries. He has appreciated so much. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The professors in Bombay, some of them are already reviewing Prabhupāda's books very favorably. Prabhupāda: So you just touch the topmost men. But if, somehow or other, if you see some of the topmost men of the China, "You kindly read our books at your leisure." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can't approach those men. Prabhupāda: Then give it up. If it is too difficult, don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not only difficult, it's impossible. Prabhupāda: Then don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Completely impossible. Prabhupāda: Give up this idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It may be possible in fifty years from now, but not now. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Our descendants will try for that. But let us try where it is favorable. Don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, we were really, you know, just looking for any loophole, but there is no loophole. Prabhupāda: No hole. That's all right. We don't care for it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The man we spoke to, when he heard what we wanted to do, he said: "Boys, you're up against the wall." He said: "You're up against the Great Wall." China has a wall called the Great Wall. He said: "You've come up against the Great Wall." He says: "You'll never cross it." Prabhupāda: No, they'll be . . . nature's law is so strong that they are also trying to knock their head in the wall. They will themselves break their head. The laws of nature is the same. If you try to break the walls from this side and if they try to break the walls from that side, both of them will lose their head. So if they are so foolish . . . they are foolish. Everywhere such foolish men are there. They are trying to overcome the laws of nature. That is the greatest foolishness. That is the greatest foolishness. Just like government has got police force, military force, and if somebody tries to become . . . violate the laws of government by defying police force and military force, that is futile. Is it possible that, "I shall defy the government laws"? No, there is police force. There is military. "I don't care for that." It is foolishness. It is simply foolishness. Similarly, these laws of nature means the force of the Supreme. So if you want to defy, you may waste your time. It is not possible. And practically, Kṛṣṇa says: "Here I have enforced this miserable condition of material life." *Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu (BG 13.9). First of all surpass this, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . Then talk of surpassing the laws of nature. Can the Communists overcome, stopping old age? No Communist will be old man? Then what way you have surpassed the laws of nature? No Communist will die? Then where is your surpassing laws of nature? Ultimately you are under the grip of laws of nature. So what is the meaning of this foolish talking, that "I am going to surpass the laws of nature"? Show us first of all. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their goal is not so broad. They just want to control the flooding of the river. Prabhupāda: That means the little children's policy. Children, just like imagining so many things, "I shall do that. I shall do." The potter's imagination. You know that? Potter's imagination? You do not know the story? One potter is selling earthen pots, and he is saying that "Now, these two paisā , it has cost me one paisā . I shall make one paisā profit. Then I can make such profit. I shall invest again. I shall make another profit, another profit. In this way I shall become millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife shall be very obedient. And if he does not become obedient, I shall give him a kick like this." And he . . . what was . . . one pot was there; he kicked that pot and broke. (laughter) It broke. "Oh, again I am poor man." So this is going on, imagination. Imagination . . . "I shall become so great that I shall kick Kṛṣṇa's law," and whatever pot he had, broken. That's all. Rascals, simply rascals. If anyone thinks like that, that "I shall surpass the laws of nature," then he's madman. He's madman. So what is the use of dealing with madmen? And as soon as you challenge them that, "Show us that you have surpassed the laws of nature," "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do." That's all. This is their reply. *So it is better to avoid such men. But if you peacefully you can introduce, "All right, you will do. You are wonderful men, so kindly if you read some pages of this, it is not very costly. You can keep. At leisure hour you can read," in this way, imploring, then they will be benefited. That much we can do to any rascal. He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya dūrāt caitanya*-candra-caraṇe (Caitanya-candrāmṛta). "Oh, you are so nice; *therefore I am flattering you. I humbly obeisance. Kindly hear one thing. Keep some books. It is not very costly." Bās . This much you can do. And let them become puffed up by their false notions. But if they keep some books, sometimes they will read or their sons will read. That's all. Therefore I am stressing so much on books, that if the puffed*-up rascals take some book and sometimes, if they read, he'll be benefited, perfectly benefited. So distribute these books anywhere possible. It doesn't matter where it is. The same process. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya . The books will sell, that "You are rascal number one, you set aside whatever you learned. Read this." He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya : "You are very learned, but forget what you have learned, all rascaldom. Try to read this book." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate : "A rascal fool is very beautifully dressed, very nice seating. But his rascaldom will be disclosed as soon as he will speak." So these rascals, as soon as they speak, "We shall surpass the laws of nature," then we can understand what kind of rascals. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ . By their . . . these words we can take, "Oh, rascaldom," at once. "I shall break the wall. I shall push the mountains with head." It is like that. If somebody is thinking that "I shall push the Himalayan mountains by knocking with my head," then we can understand. So where it is? A rascal, the innocent, he is also rascal. But innocent is eager to become intelligent, so there we shall deal. And the stubborn atheists, they are dviṣat . They cannot be corrected immediately, unless they become ruined. (break) . . . their standard of life. Try for that. Concentrate in your country. There is no need of going . . . I was written, asking you that, that "If it is very hard job, don't try for that, useless waste of time." Incorrigible. So what is the use of going to a person . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We also researched a little bit about Russia. After we saw how it looked here—it was impossible—we were looking towards Russia. So we did some research on Russia also. There it's a little bit more open, but it's also, in terms of any kind of broad program, it is practically impossible. For example, distribution of books in Russia, there's only one company that buys the books. There's one import . . . Prabhupāda: So let him, one. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And it's not even done personally. You do it through the mail. They don't . . . it's not a question of going and personally showing the books. Prabhupāda: Oh, then don't send. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are waste . . . Prabhupāda: Don't waste time and money. It is not possible. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It doesn't require . . . you can't influence a per . . . they don't have the power. A university does not have the power to buy the books. Prabhupāda: Then you do that. Don't do which is impossible. No, don't try for it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And China is ten times more closed than Russia. Prabhupāda: No, then stop this policy. Ask Gopāla not to go there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He can get the books in Russia . . . Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Through the mail Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . through the mail just as sucessfully as by going personally. Prabhupāda: Hmm. And that's nice. Try for that. (end) Conversation -- May 5, 1976, Honolulu Bhūrijana: (offers obeisances) *Prabhupāda: So I was talking with Siddha*-svarup. So while you are all here, so what is the reason . . . (indistinct) . . .? We should work conjointly. Bhūrijana: And . . .? Prabhupāda: Jointly work. Don't make division. Bhūrijana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What is the misunderstanding, settle up. This way. Bhūrijana: I spoke to him a bit last night, and he said, "If my instructions contradict Prabhupāda's . . ." Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhūrijana: He said to me last night, "If my instructions to you . . ." something like that, "contradict Prabhupāda's, then don't follow my instructions." (laughs) Prabhupāda: Who said? Bhūrijana: That's what he said. I mean, if he . . . Prabhupāda: I do not understand. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If he said that to Bhūrijana that, "If my instruction is contrary to Prabhupāda's instruction, then don't follow my instructions," that is to say that either he thinks that his instruction is the same as yours, or his instruction is different from yours and is not . . . (indistinct) . . . so far as . . . I spoke with Gurukṛpā Mahārāja, who's supposed to be GBC for Hawaii. He said that he has deviated. Siddha*-svarūpānanda Mahārāja has deviated. He has created a faction. And we're working together in ISKCON. So many individuals, we're working together to please Prabhupāda mutually. Bhūrijana: Yes. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it's up to Siddha*-svarūpānanda Mahārāja's group to set the same standard that everyone has to accept. Bhūrijana: That seems to be the . . . *Prabhupāda: Now they are working together. Why Siddha*-svarūpā Mahārāja cannot remain here? Bhūrijana: I think he thinks everyone is in māyā , I think. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It doesn't matter what he thinks. He's a disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) Bhūrijana: Yes. He causes trouble to Prabhupāda is not good. *Prabhupāda: The Siddha*-svarūpa group, they do not like to say clear. Is it not? Bhūrijana: Yeah, I see that. Very clearly I see that, yeah. Prabhupāda: So? What is the reason? Bhūrijana: What is the . . .? Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Bhūrijana: So would you like me to do anything? What would you like me to do? I know I don't want to be independent. *Prabhupāda: Why you are inclined to follow Siddha*-svarūpa, your wife and you? What is special attraction? Bhūrijana: I think we needed . . . we needed some . . . we couldn't always be corresponding with you. I needed some personal instruction, so I took it. Prabhupāda: So first of all tell what is the special attraction. Your wife said that their instruction is very clear. So what is the distinction between clear and ambiguous? What do you find ambiguous and what do you find clear? What is that? Bhūrijana: I think the part I found clear is the more introspective points about humility, and changing one's desire . . . Prabhupāda: Humility means not to follow the instruction of guru ? That is not . . .? Bhūrijana: No, that is not humility. Prabhupāda: Then I'm asking you what is the special attraction. You say that . . . your wife says it is very clear. What is that clear and ambiguous? Bhūrijana: You mean what is ambiguous on . . . I mean, what is she saying that is ambiguous, or what . . . Prabhupāda: No. You say that is very clear what others are telling you. Now what is that ambiguous, what is that clear? Bhūrijana: The clearness may be a deeper understanding to want to be humble. A deeper understanding to want to . . . *Prabhupāda: Humble, but if you do not follow your spiritual master's instruction, if you follow others, then where is the humbleness? You say yes. This is yes, this is yes . . . (indistinct) . . . you said that your wife says that what Siddha*-svarūpa says, it is very clear and easy, and others are not so clear. Is it not? What is that clear Siddha-svarūpa says, and what is not clear? Bhūrijana: He says chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So who says that you don't chant? Bhūrijana: Maybe the emphasis wasn't so much on the chanting, even though everyone says harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam ( CC Adi 17.21), everyone just chants their sixteen rounds a day, chants a half hour ārati in the evening and half hour ārati in the morning. *Prabhupāda: So what do you want more? What is your program? Twenty*-four hours? Bhūrijana: I like more kīrtana than that. Prabhupāda: So you don't like to sell books. Bhūrijana: No, I think I like very much. I mean, I think I would like to. Prabhupāda: So what is difference? Bhūrijana: Between selling books and kīrtana ? Prabhupāda: No, no. Between others and you. Where is the difference? Why don't you point out that, "This is the point, we differ." What is that point? Bhūrijana: Well maybe the point about more kīrtana or less kīrtana . Prabhupāda: So if you chant more, is there objection? Bhūrijana: No. Prabhupāda: Then where is the objection? Has anyone objected, chant more? Bhūrijana: No. Prabhupāda: Then where is the objection? What is the point of difference? Bhūrijana: I think there's no point of difference. Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that we find these instructions more clear? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You say that there's no point of difference, but then you choose that his instruction is more clear. There's some contradiction. Bhūrijana: It's just that emphasis that was given to Hari . . . to chanting. Prabhupāda: What is the difference? Bhūrijana: For myself, I know I was off track, and I know that in my heart I built up an enmity towards your disciples and thinking that they . . . that by their distributing books they were making people angry at Kṛṣṇa and . . . Prabhupāda: That is the real point. That is the real point. Bhūrijana: That's what I felt. See, when I was in Hong Kong, people I would meet, they used to yell . . . people, they'd yell at me, "What have you done to Kṛṣṇa?" Some Indians used to say that. People we'd meet, they'd tell us they see the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees and they hate Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Bhūrijana: Well, this was . . . I remember one specific time when I was speaking to one businessman who was helping us and . . . Prabhupāda: He said that, "We hate Kṛṣṇa"? Bhūrijana: No, no. He said that, "Your members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're making people in Australia hate Kṛṣṇa. They make people inimical." Making people inimical to Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They feel threatened simply that we're preaching something which will discourage their sinful way of life. Therefore they feel threatened. Not they're hating. It hurts. Their argument is that because of our strong emphasis on preaching and book distrubtion, they say therefore that the mass of people, they have a bad impression of Kṛṣṇa. Bhūrijana: And also because . . . Prabhupāda: Because we are selling books. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because we're selling books. *Bhūrijana: Not so much the selling books. Maybe because of the emphasis on taking . . . how much money can be taken. Like if someone says on the street, "Please give me a donation." So they give him a donation. "No, you must give more," and more and more. So the people think that the devotees are only interested in getting money, and they get a bad impression that ISKCON is a money*-making movement. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We're selling one half a million large*-size books each year. Hari-śauri: The thing is that the materialists will always point out that they see the devotees, and we say that we renounce everything, but they don't understand that renunciation means to take everything and give it to Kṛṣṇa. So when . . . just like that time there was such a great commotion when we hired that Rolls Royce to take Your Divine Grace from the airport to the temple. So in the papers they didn't put anything that you said. They simply put "His Divine Grace is arriving in a Rolls Royce," like that. So this is the general attitude of the common mass of people. Prabhupāda: That is envious. So if they sell books, so that is making Kṛṣṇa unpopular? Bhūrijana: But one must learn to be a good book salesman, I think. Prabhupāda: But selling book, Kṛṣṇa, does it mean that the booksellers are creating unpopular opinion? Does it mean? Bhūrijana: Automatically, no. Prabhupāda: When you say that they're making enemies because they're pushing the sales, what is the wrong there? Actually, I can so far understand that you do not like to sell books, or you cannot sell books. Bhūrijana: Actually, I've never really tried. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhūrijana: I've never really tried, 'cause I was in . . . Prabhupāda: Tried? Bhūrijana: I've never attempted very much. Prabhupāda: Those who are selling books, you think of them they're not very advanced. Bhūrijana: Errm, I don't think they can do it for very long. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhūrijana: I don't think that they can continue for a very long time if they are not advanced. Prabhupāda: But actually they're doing. So why do you say they cannot continue long? Hari-śauri: No, he's saying that if they weren't . . . that they must be advanced, actually, if you look at it in the proper perspective. For those that were continually distributing, then the . . . (indistinct) . . . it's obvious that they must be advanced. Otherwise one could not do it for a very long time. Bhūrijana: When people . . . also it used to make me angry when people would collect money for . . . using lying terms, I mean say that they're collecting money for the welfare center here, or to feed the children here, or to bus the children there, and they'd collect money like that, but it wasn't very straightforward. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda has many times given the instruction to the devotees that we should try as much as possible to distribute the books on their own merit. (break) . . . wanting this knowledge. Bhūrijana: But they . . . (break) . . . so much of the collecting was collecting, not distributing books. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, but the point is that Prabhupāda's instruction is there. Bhūrijana: But all the devotees want to hear is Prabhupāda also says "by hook or by crook." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes it may be required to interest someone in a book, that they may find out their interest. Just like people are interested in philanthropic activity. Prabhupāda: Just like our . . . what is his name? Hari-śauri: Tripurāri? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Some lady inquired, "Is there any instruction about this power shortage?" "Oh, yes." (laughs) So she purchased, and the next day she said: "There is nothing about power shortage." So suppose Tripurāri has sold one book. The lady inquired, "Is there any Vedic instruction about power shortage?" And he said: "Yes." So you think it is wrong. That is your version. Bhūrijana: I think a simple lie like that is not bad. Prabhupāda: But a devotee's view is that whatever may be her inquiry, if she purchases one book, she'll be benefited. This is the point. But you, as big moralist, you, (laughs) you think that he has cheated. He has not cheated. He has benefited her, that somehow or other he has given a book to her. Someday she'll read and she'll benefit. But you people, you think no why we should sell like that, that "Yes, there is solution of power shortage." Actually there is, but you think that he has lied. Just like there are . . . sometimes the father's child is suffering from fever. So the father wants that the child may take the medicine and promises, "You take the medicine. I'll give you this cake." The purpose is not to give the cake, a cake. The purpose is the child may take the medicine. That is the purpose. But when the father promises that, "If you take the medicine I'll give you this cake." But cake is dangerous for the child who is suffering from fever, but still the father allures him, "If you take the medicine and I'll give the cake." So is the father wrong or right? Bhūrijana: No. Prabhupāda: So similarly, similarly, if somehow or other one can sell one book to a person, it is good for him. Don't take how he is selling, but he's giving the book to that person and he's paying something, and that is good. But big moralist, they cannot understand. They'll see, "Why the father has spoken lie to his son? He's not a good father." They'll mistake. Father is always friend. Father cannot be enemy. But for the benefit of the rascal child sometimes he has to say like that, that "If you take the medicine I'll give you this cake." So those who are mundane moralist, they cannot understand these things, because they are mundane platform. The another example is that Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. He was asked by Kṛṣṇa that, "You speak lie to Dronācārya that, 'Your son is dead.' " Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused. For this he had to see hell. He was more moralist than Kṛṣṇa. For this moral activity he had to visit hell. This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is . . . why we are pushing, so much giving stress on books? Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles. Just as Arjuna did. Arjuna was arguing with Kṛṣṇa that, "This killing of my relatives, it is very abominable. Better I beg and maintain myself than I kill my relatives and become a king." Did he not say? So that is ordinary man's argument. But as Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused to speak lie . . . so, and Arjuna, in spite of his conviction that "It is sinful to kill my relatives," he still agreed to kill. Why? Bhūrijana: That is supreme moral, Kṛṣṇa's desire. Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa desires, if one does, he's above all this material. But it should not be manufactured. The thing is that, "Our spiritual master wants to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he has repeatedly stressed to distribute books, we shall distribute books by any means," that is good. That is good. And if you become moralist that, "Oh, they're taking this means, that means for selling of book, so I'm big moralist. I'm bigger than him." Bhūrijana: I don't think there is so much enmity because of the books themselves. Prabhupāda: No, I think that . . . I do not know what they are doing, but I have information that they're not selling books. Bhūrijana: Some, I think. I think some. Prabhupāda: But not . . . Bhūrijana: Comparable amount. Certainly not. Prabhupāda: Yes. Others who were transgressing the moral principle, they were selling more books. Bhūrijana: Much more. Prabhupāda: And those who are big moralists, they could not. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're also distributing one pamphlet printed by Siddha*-svarūpānanda. And then if they like, then they can buy one of Prabhupāda's books. Prabhupāda's book comes second. Prabhupāda: Sometimes I've heard so many things. Bhūrijana: But they give those away for free. I mean, just in the sense that someone maybe doesn't want to purchase anything, so they give him something for free about Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: First they do that. Bhūrijana: Only because it's free. Not that a . . . as far as I know. Prabhupāda: They get knowledge free, then why they should purchase? If you give them the opportunity that we take material, knowledge free, then why they will purchase? Bhūrijana: Like if we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious without following the rules and regulations, why follow the rules and regulations? That's what I was thinking a while ago. Prabhupāda: They should follow what their spiritual master says. Book selling, there is no question of moral and immoral. We must sell. Just like in fighting. Where there is fight, the soldiers, to gain victory, there is no question of moral and immoral. He must gain victory. Bhūrijana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think the thing I understand least is that if they are not doing what you want . . . I mean . . . I'm sitting before you now, and you're telling me and I'm listening, and you are my spiritual master, and I must accept. Prabhupāda: We want that book selling must be increased as much as possible. This we want. The same principle: let the child take medicine, never mind the father is speaking lies. That is . . . because as soon as he takes the medicine he'll be benefited. End justifies the means. End is that everyone should have a Kṛṣṇa literature. Doesn't matter what is the means. Because he has taken one Kṛṣṇa literature, that justifies everything. This is the principle. Bhūrijana: How about the just collecting without giving any literature? Just collecting. Three months ago I saw it in Australia, with a lying line, too, I mean not telling the truth. And that wasn't very long ago. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Sometimes the devotees just distribute with incense. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: They go out and distribute incense. Bhūrijana: Nothing. Hari-śauri: They collect and distribute incense. Sometimes they don't distribute books. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And then maybe if they're having to pay off a loan on the temple. The general instruction is there, and all the devotees are well aware of it, that Prabhupāda's books have first priority. Everyone knows it. The consciousness is there. It's not a consciousness of not giving anything and taking. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda's point is that if you see fault with the method of implementing the spiritual master's instructions, you'll fail to follow the instructions. Prabhupāda: No, the point is not that they have not done any wrong. Don't think like that. But my point, that is, my instruction is the books must be pushed. Bhūrijana: I understand. In other words, if you think they're doing it wrong, you do it better. If you see the wrong thing . . . but do it. Make sure you do it, but do it better without the wrong, then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhūrijana: I feel that this is . . . huh. Prabhupāda: Besides that . . . (end) Conversation -- May 7, 1976, Honolulu Prabhupāda: First business, how to get our books . . . (indistinct) . . . (loud kirtan in background) For Russia, export from India will be favorable. So government paper we are printing seven, eight rupees price. Make that addition, all the books. Ask them to take paper from the government, huge quantity, and all these books should be published immediately, five thousand copies. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Five thousand copies each. Prabhupāda: Yes, if possible. Minimum one thousand. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last time when we were speaking, I was mentioning to you that in Russia they are particularly inclined towards an exchange program of books, where we give our books and they will give some useless books. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) . . . why should we do this? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned last time you will throw them away. Prabhupāda: For us there is no readable books in the whole world. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: We cannot waste our time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, of course. But is there any . . . I mean, of course we would like to . . . Prabhupāda: But only some of the authorized books, just to take their parts and to refute; otherwise, we haven't got to take lesson from anyone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: This is a fact. All rascal speculators, what value they have got? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing there are many thousands of libraries in Russia and they are agreeable to placing, say, one of our books of each book in each of the libraries, but they are not willing to purchase all of these books, but they are willing to give us some book in exchange? Will we make this sacrifice? Because it will represent a loss of money. Prabhupāda: No, if you can arrange for selling those books at any cost. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can arrange to sell our books to them at any cost? Prabhupāda: No, no, exchange. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can sell. There is some set resale value. Then we can realize some money. Prabhupāda: Yes, then it is all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll have value. There will be some money. We can request them to send us samples of the books that they will return to us. Then we can . . . Prabhupāda: Find out cost. Some shopkeepers, stores. Some return. If we can get our cost price of the books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should get cost price. Prabhupāda: Not should, but must as far as possible. Gurukṛpā: I've heard that in Russia the people are so eager to read imported literature that any literature appears they immediately buy it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a black market going on in Russia, particularly black market on books. Books are smuggled into the country and sold, and they're very dearly read. People are very anxious. Prabhupāda: Yes. They must be, because they are keeping in darkness. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: These nasty countries, in the name of giving them material facility, they'll kill them, even they're independent. Such a horrible country. How people can tolerate loss of independence? It is very horrible. I am sitting here twenty*-four hours, this is another thing; but if I understand that I cannot go out, I have to sit down here, oh, it is horrible. It is a horrible condition. Simply this impression that I have to keep myself within this room, although I am keeping myself, I am not going, only for walk maybe. But if the impression is that I cannot go out from this room, then my life is lost. This is psychology. So they are keeping their young men. They are not allowed to go out of the country, in Russia. Similarly in China. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even more so. Prabhupāda: So what kind of government it is? It is a horrible government. And they are hackney only in literature. These Communist country, the people are forced to accept the government regulation. And that is all bad. I have seen in Moscow, generally the people are morose, their face not very happy. They are also European. They want freedom to go here and there. They have no such freedom. And poor. The taxi driver—first of all there is scarcity of taxi; you cannot get taxi. Gurukṛpā: Even in Moscow, big city. Prabhupāda: Yes. That Professor Kotovsky, I asked him, "Please arrange for a taxi." . . . (indistinct) . . . "Well, Swāmījī, this is Moscow." (laughter) So he came down up to the gate—he was very courteous—he showed me, "Swāmījī, go this way, three, four lane, then you'll find a short lane, and then you go this way, this way, then you get to your hotel." He showed me some short cut way, short cut personally. They . . . he could not call a taxi. And somewhere we went, we got a taxi, private taxi, and that man was begging for more than the fare. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the system . . . Prabhupāda: "Can you not give me little more?" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the system is a failure. Prabhupāda: And then I could understand. And they have got that there is tourist bus, taking here and there, that bus is third class. Even less opulent than in India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many days were you there? Prabhupāda: One week. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Short. You were only in Moscow? Gurukṛpā: That is the rich city. People are fighting to get into that city. They only allow so many people to live there. Prabhupāda: Everything restricted. Gurukṛpā: You cannot just decide to move to Moscow. You cannot do that. You must take permission from the government to live in Moscow. Prabhupāda: Everything . . . and we could not get nice food. There was no nice rice, wheat, fruit, flour—nothing. Fruit means the strawberries. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only. Prabhupāda: I don't remember we could get any other fruit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Perhaps you went at a bad season. Prabhupāda: No, no. Everything is controlled. Whatever government will give you, you have to accept. And all the stores, it is just like, what is called? The old? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Grocery store? Prabhupāda: Antique, antique. Antique shop. That means no purchaser. People have no p . . . no bank. People have no money; simply bare necessities of life their government supplies. And bus transport, buses standing in one place, best time, and people are running after. Women, men, mostly they walk. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or bicycles. Prabhupāda: Bicycle, I did not . . . Gurukṛpā: I think they must all wear the same clothes. Prabhupāda: I did not study so much. Yes, there is no gorgeousness. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In China they all wear the same clothes. Whatever you saw in Russia, China is ten times more oppressive. It is much more oppressive. They say that Russia is a complete failure, because they are allowing so much looseness. The Chinese are accusing the Russians of being very loose and very capitalistic inclined. China is very dissatisfied that Russians have given up the principles of Marx and they have taken after the Western ways, preferring one group above another group. Prabhupāda: Because Russia was afraid of another Revolution. People were preparing. So much pressure, intolerance, after all they are Europeans, so there was a chance of revolution. Hari-śauri: Especially after Stalin. So many people were killed and sent to prison camps. That was the way that they enforced . . . Prabhupāda: Stalin is calculated to be greatest criminal in the world. He has killed so many men. All rogues. We were taken through the neighborhood of all aristocratic men who were killed in the Revolution. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While reading about China, one of the books I was reading also described Cambodia, Vietnam and Korea. And the recent histories of these countries are so horrible, that the . . . mostly in that part of the world now they have become totally anti*-American. They are very, very anti-American because of what the Ameri . . . the Americans have simply gone there and . . . Gurukṛpā: Not Korea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh? Prabhupāda: No, Korea, also there was Americans. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: North Koreans don't love Americans. Gurukṛpā: No, not north Koreans, South Koreans. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But now Korea is united. Gurukṛpā: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, I've been reading. They hate the Americans in North Korea. In North Korea they hate the Americans. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: North Korea is Communist. Gurukṛpā: Trivikrama has left Korea now. He went, and he has left. He's in Japan. Prabhupāda: Oh. He could not do anything? Gurukṛpā: I don't know. He has left there. He went for three weeks and left. Now he's in Japan. I don't know where. He's doing something. Prabhupāda: If he could not do anything, he can come back to America. What do you think? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that it's good for him to come back to America. He's been away from America for five or six years now. Prabhupāda: Yes, let him come back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He can preach in colleges. It would be a very purifying experience. Being by oneself for so long in that part of the world is very difficult. Prabhupāda: To remain alone is risky. (pause) Prabhupāda: Now China wants to control India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And also Russia. Prabhupāda: Also Russia. China would have attacked. They once attempted, American implemented. They are thinking that because the officers are corrupt, the people are dissatisfied, and if we go they will welcome. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Exactly correct. Oh, yes, it's a perfect analysis. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They believe that the . . . of course, it's a fact, the leaders are very corrupt, but the people want the change, that's what they believe. "And if we go, the people will work with us and overthrow this government and establish a true communistic government, a government for all of the benefit of the people." That's their idea. They feel that way about the whole world, the Chinese. They feel in America also—of course that's nonsense—but they think like that, that in America there is a huge working class, and the working class are feeling oppressed. But that's nonsense. Prabhupāda: I think American working class are paid more than any country. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The average income in the United States now . . . Gurukṛpā: Even a bricklayer. You know a man who lays bricks, a man who just lays bricks, bricklayer? In India he gets paid ten rupees a day. Prabhupāda: Utmost. Gurukṛpā: And here he gets paid twelve dollars an hour. Prabhupāda: Bricklayer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, twelve dollars an hour. Gurukṛpā: So one hundred dollars a day. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is impossible to engage. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. Gurukṛpā: Very expensive. Construction worker, just to build a simple building, they charge construction about nine dollars an hour, every man, minimum, unskilled man, nine dollars an hour. Prabhupāda: Then, how it will be possible? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were discussing this. The way to do it is that you get some person . . . there are many persons all over the country who are knowledgeable, who can do the work, but who are friendly. Just like in many temples that I visited, they have people, professionals who are working, but they are young men, and because they are friendly towards our Society, they'll do the work for less money. I'm sure that there are people who can be found like that here. Prabhupāda: American devotee, Asian and Australian devotee. Gurukṛpā: I think it can be done amongst our devotees. Prabhupāda: Hmm. We are not very anxious to get it done immediately. We shall do slowly. Gurukṛpā: So we are . . . me and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, we have organized the saṅkīrtana here. The saṅkīrtana should increase about ten times. Before they were doing three hundred dollars a day; now they should be doing at about one thousand three hundred dollars a day. Prabhupāda: That is nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore I think if we have profit, fifty percent can go for books and fifty percent can be banked. And when they have enough money, then we can build the temple. But it's the only question . . . Prabhupāda: No, with what . . . whatever collection is there, fifty percent, go on. Why wait? Gurukṛpā: And what about my collections in Japan? Prabhupāda: We also spend here for the time. Gurukṛpā: 'Cause I will be getting nice collections this year. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: I will bank it here? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: It should come here? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The construction in Māyāpur . . . Gurukṛpā: It's just that I don't have . . . Prabhupāda: You have paid? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From Rādhā*-Dāmodara party? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were doing that, previous to the Māyāpur festival. Prabhupāda: Yes. You are also, you have promised you have continued. Here, there . . . there is no temple. Must be constructed. Gurukṛpā: Do you think . . . some of the devotees were expressing that maybe in the front would be better, then they could come in off the street. Otherwise they have to go around the . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: If the building was built in the front, some people were thinking this might be a better spot, because if there's no sun back here . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gurukṛpā: . . . then it becomes very muddy there. Prabhupāda: What is the area here? Gurukṛpā: Oh, it's bigger. Prabhupāda: Bigger? Gurukṛpā: Yes. And they say these neighbors back here are the ones that do all the complaining. So some were expressing that this might be better; they could come in off the street. Also, many tourists come to Hawaii, and if we make it very nice, then they can . . . many tourist buses may come here to see the temple. So if it is near the gate then you'll come right out. But it's just that I have no knowledge of how to build anything. Prabhupāda: Who? Gurukṛpā: Myself, how to go about it. I don't have any experience or knowledge of that. Prabhupāda: No, you have no experience. I know. So that Australian boy who works constantly, there is one temple . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhāskara. Gurukṛpā: Bhāskara, yeah. He's in New York. Prabhupāda: He can come and help. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He'll be free pretty soon. Gurukṛpā: Someone has to organize for the construction, though. That's the main thing. Then later the inside. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Māyāpur they are completing the, er, that building? They had begun that long residential building. Prabhupāda: Which one? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The one while we were there. Prabhupāda: Uhuh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember they were doing the first . . . ground floor. I think you told them to . . . Prabhupāda: They are completing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about the other side? Prabhupāda: That side also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Exhibition hall. Prabhupāda: That side also scheduled to begin. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Bombay also has to be finished. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So sufficient funds have to be sent for completing Bombay in ten months' time and for those two buildings in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Bombay, the slab is laid, temple. Latest letter? Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Giridhārī. And the tower . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Prabhupāda: I think it will be finished earlier. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya. Any more news on the attempt of the government to take it back? Prabhupāda: The government, I know it will be unable to take. They cannot acquire temple. There is no such law. And even they acquire, we shall say, "All right take it . . . (indistinct) . . ." And the Hindus will . . . (indistinct) . . . to neglect, "All right, we will do it." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We could write a book. A book should be written about the Bombay . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that . . . one lady, Nirmala. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Dr. Singhal's wife. Prabhupāda: Yes, she has already sent some article, why it is not published? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, whenever I see her she always asks: "Why they don't publish?" Prabhupāda: Yes, and they inquire. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should start to make enquiry now throughout the world, how to push these books forward. Just as you are pointing out—sending books from India to Russia—in this way there may be so many arrangements. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just find out what is the venues to push our books. As much as possible. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I concentrate my time for this? Prabhupāda: Yes, only. This will be your only business. All over the world, see how the books can be pushed. In their language or in English. Now we have got several languages. You have seen the latest Portuguese edition? Gurukṛpā: Spanish. Prabhupāda: Spanish. You have seen? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think I have. Prabhupāda: Give it to him. Hari-śauri: It's on the bottom shelf. Prabhupāda: Last. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one? Prabhupāda: Last, last book. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Phew, very handsome. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have done very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That's the idea. If books like this can be introduced, I'm certain that every single Spanish embassy around the world will take a book like this for their library. And there's plenty of them. There's many nations. *Prabhupāda: And you can sell standing order of all the languages. So they will take. And the get*-up is so nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Beautiful. Yeah, that book is nice, the color is good. Prabhupāda: This is printed in America also. American books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Printed in . . . Dhṛṣṭadyumna: EUA. Prabhupāda: USA. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: USA. Prabhupāda: In this way, if possible, print in Russian language, in black market. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's possible, and they'll be eager. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The young people are dissatisfied, young student. Prabhupāda: Small books print, first of all. See how the black market takes it, and then big books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is also all of the Eastern European countries. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got black market. There must be intermediate man who deals in black market. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Give them. Let them make good profit. We want to put up, that's all. And let them take money, we don't mind. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. When there is trickery, you become trickery. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. Kṛṣṇa's play, those who are plain, Kṛṣṇa is very kind and plain. Those who are tricky, "All right, I am also tricky." We shall adopt all the means of the materialistic person, simply for Kṛṣṇa. (break) Just like Kṛṣṇa's rāsa dance. Any materialistic person at the dead of night will be glad to dance with young girls. What is the difference? (break) But because it was Kṛṣṇa's dancing, so this association of the woman with Kṛṣṇa is taken by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the first*-class worship. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā. Kṛṣṇa also became little tricky with the gopīs, "Oh, you have come at dead of night? What your husband, father would think? And there are so many ferocious animals in the jungle. Please get out immediately." You have read that? Devotees: Mmm. Hmm. Prabhupāda: And the gopīs were thinking, "What this rascal says . . . say?" (chuckles) They are so sorry, that "We have come, leaving everything and this rascal is giving us moral instruction." This is love: they can chastise Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . somehow or other, black market, white market, red market, let them make. And as soon as there is taste, there will be very good demand. And this black marketeer will make profit and they'll do. This Chinese policy or the Russian policy will not stand. Simply we require to make ourselves strong. As soon as we become stronger than the Communist movement, we shall finish everyone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Finish everyone? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean attack them? Prabhupāda: That I shall tell later. You become little strong. We cannot allow them. Because Kṛṣṇa's policy is, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam ( BG 4.8). You have to take that policy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Vṛndāvana, one day on a walk, you were saying that Kṛṣṇa's soldiers will walk all over the world, and they will approach everyone and say: "Do you believe in Kṛṣṇa?" And if they say: "No," immediately, kill them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not kill them with weapon, but kill them by saṅkīrtana. They are already dead. So physical killing is for very big, big, strong man like Mao, or this Lenin, like that. Not common people. They have to be shown mercy. Hari-śauri: More a question of revival for the common people. More a question of revival. Prabhupāda: If they allow us to forward our movement, then we are satisfied. And when there is hindrance, the person who is hindering, finished. But don't do it now, (chuckles) then you will be finished. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you think the time will come when we will . . .? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because Kṛṣṇa has two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam (BG 4.8). We are for delivering all people. Anyone who will put hindrance, then we have to finish. Not small; big. Yes. That is going on all over the world, politics. Gurukṛpā: Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, he also . . . Prabhupāda: That is the way everywhere. (break) They will be automatically finished. Just like the Ramakrishna Mission, who are advertising that they have done wonderful importance. They are now finished. They are simply making false propaganda in India. Actually, they have got fangs. What is called, fangs? Gurukṛpā: Phans? Prabhupāda: The poison teeth? Devotees: Fangs. Prabhupāda: Fangs, fangs. That is broken. So make . . . first of all try to push books everywhere, all over the world. They have got so many languages, like Russian or . . . black market. Chinese also. Black market, they cannot check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no, and you don't need permission either. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And there's more profit, too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In black market. Prabhupāda: And yes, if there is demand, then you will make good profit also. And there will be demand. Hari-śauri: They'll be big demand for your books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very big, very big. *Prabhupāda: They trans . . . sent one translation of Tulasi dāsa's Rāma*-caritra-mānasa . It was sold, all, in a week. And therefore they have stopped now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow, really? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gurukṛpā: It is Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . *Prabhupāda: They sent stocks, Bhagavad*-gītā . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes I wonder that—of course, we want our books to be translated by our own men—but in the absence of sufficient translators . . . Prabhupāda: Any way. That thing, you see, that our men means they know the philosophy. Others, they do not know. That is the difficulty. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing we have—I'm just using this hypothetical . . . Prabhupāda: Any, "our man" who knows Russian language, he should check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Professionals may translate, but one of our men may check? Prabhupāda: Yes, just like our books are being done in Germany now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Yeah, then you can have quite a few books translated. Because if we only depend on our men for the entire translating work, it will never get done. Prabhupāda: No, no. Then get professional man, but he may not create the havoc. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he must be checked by someone who knows. Whew, this is exciting. I'd love to see your Bhagavad*-gītā , the most widely-read black market book in Russia. Prabhupāda: Then that will create revolution. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew. These books are very revolutionary. You are very strong. You have put everything in a very clear*-cut, strong words. You have attacked everyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious as fools and rascals. Prabhupāda: (laughs) This is a fact. It is not exaggeration. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In your article in Back to Godhead about Marx, you call him a . . . what is that? Gurukṛpā: Nonsense. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A nonsense. You call him "Marx is nonsense." Prabhupāda: Yes, what is his philosophy? Dialectitude? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dialectic Materialism. Prabhupāda: So, we have written one Dialectic Spiritualism. Hari-śauri: Harikeśa's. Prabhupāda: Harikeśa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he read it to us in India. He's preaching, I think, in Eastern Europe sometimes. We got a report. Has he written you? Prabhupāda: Yes. I heard that, but is he being all right or not? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From the report it appears that he goes occasionally into some Eastern European countries. Mostly he's concentrating in England, Germany and Scandinavias. He has a party, and they are doing speaking engagements and distributing books. And sometimes he went in . . . which countries? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Czechoslovakia, Hungary. He went to Budapest. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is going to some Communist European countries. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They make their vans with false bottoms, and they hide the books underneath, so at the border they do not see. Underneath the van is all your books. When they get in the country then they distribute the books to these students. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Revolution. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Sometimes he said when he's speaking, the translator will not say what he is saying because it's . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes he forgets—usually he speaks very carefully, guarded words. But once or twice he says . . . he starts speaking direct Krishna consciousness, and the translator looks at him and won't translate it into the local language. Sometimes he forgets himself and starts speaking about Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the translator suddenly looks at him. Usually he covers everything. Prabhupāda: He has done a good job. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is a fit person, very intelligent. Prabhupāda: So in this way . . . you are all intelligent; you can plan. The aim is how to distribute books. That is first consideration. (break) In Bhāgavata it is very figuratively described that we have got this body and the different parts. Just like Arjuna is sitting on the chariot. There is chariot driver, there are horses, reins, there is wheel, and the arrow and the bow. They have been figuratively . . . so this can be used for killing the enemies of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and then give up all this paraphernalia, chariot, wheel. Just like after fighting, only victory, then you kill them. And similarly this body is there, the mind is there, the senses are there. So utilize it for conquering over this material existence. And then give up your body and go back to home. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Does the devotee . . . I mean, just like you are always enthusing us to push on . . . *Prabhupāda: That is sharpening your weapons. That is also described. By serving the spiritual master, you keep your weapon always sharpened. And then take help from Kṛṣṇa, the words of spiritual master sharpen weapon, and yasya prasādad bhagavata . . . and the spiritual master is happy, then Kṛṣṇa immediately will help. He gives you strength. Suppose you have got a sword, sharpened sword. But if you have no strength, what will you do with the sword? Kṛṣṇa will give you the strength, how to fight and kill the enemies. Everything is described. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu, guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya (CC Madhya 19.151). Make your weapon sharpened by the instruction of the spiritual master, and then Kṛṣṇa will give you strength, you'll be able to conquer. This figurative explanation I think last night I give. Here is a verse, acyuta-balaḥ, acyuta-balaḥ (SB 7.15.45). Is Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa here? Hari-śauri: (calls out) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: We are soldiers of Kṛṣṇa, servant of Arjuna. Simply we have to act accordingly, then you will finish our enemies. They have no power, although their number is hundred times. Just like Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, they have no power, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BG 18.78). Keep Kṛṣṇa in your side, then everything will be successful. Tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtiḥ . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have to go now, catch our airplane. You'll be coming to America in about a month's time? Hari-śauri: Three weeks. Prabhupāda: I think so. Hari-śauri: Three weeks. Prabhupāda: Three weeks. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Ratha*-yātrā in New York is taking place on July 18th. So I think it's . . . Prabhupāda: So if I go earlier in New York, my place is available? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. If you like to come it's ready. It'll be ready for you. Prabhupāda: Hmm, I want to go. I want to see how this new building is . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Utilized. Prabhupāda: Because I went there in New York, no place to stay. It is very engladdening we have got now nice building. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This place is the best facility we have in the movement. (break) *Prabhupāda: Baladeva means Nityānanda. Nitāiyer karuṇā habe braje rādhā*-kṛṣṇa pābe . In this way I was praying. Balarām hoile nitāi . So this word bolo I . . . (indistinct) . . . it is supported by Vedic version: nāyam ātmā bala-hinena labhyaḥ . Without Baladeva . . . give this garland to him and this flower to that boy . . . (indistinct) (end) Conversation -- May 12, 1976, Honolulu Prabhupāda: Where did he get this idea, not to trust me? . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: So that's what I was trying to ask. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: That's what I was trying to ask. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: That was the reason that I was trying to ask those questions. Prabhupāda: He has become impersonal. He is simply out of the jurisdiction of personal care. The guru is personal or Kṛṣṇa is impersonal? Govinda dāsī: He speaks of the guru principle and that his spiritual master is within his heart, and that . . . and he doesn't accept the personal service of the physical manifestation. Prabhupāda: He does not understand. Don't . . . (indistinct) . . . who cares for his philosophy? Govinda dāsī: Not for very long. I am simply concerned for him. Prabhupāda: That is natural, but if he wants to avoid being saved, then how can you save him? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: If he wants to commit suicide, then who can save him? He will do it . . . (indistinct) Devotee: He's downstairs in the morning. Prabhupāda: What he doing? Devotee: I don't know. I stay up here during ārati in case you mean . . . Prabhupāda: Govinda? Govinda dāsī: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- May 13, 1976, Honolulu Prabhupāda: . . . cannot say sometimes it is dark. (coughs) Is that truth, that sun is sometimes dark, sometimes light? This is their intelligence. But we have to be guided by these rascals. That is the dangerous position in the modern world. All the leaders are rascals: religious, political, social. Any field of activities, just try to advise us. Now this Indira Gandhi is convicted: "You must leave your post. It is taken." Just see, (s)he is the guidance of the whole nation, and (s)he is a culprit. Where is that, the secure? The mother is killing child, you see. And the prime minister is a thief; the president is a rogue. This is the . . . in your country, big country, and a big rogue. And India, it is big country also, culture, there is a thief. The mother is the best shelter for child. She is mother, then where is protection? (child crying in background) This is going on. The mother is no more shelter; *the king is no more protector. Then? Where is shelter? This is the . . . and long, long ago, at least three thousand years ago, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita warned, viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja*-kuleṣu ca : "Government men and women should not be trusted." This is the . . . and this, they elected the woman politician. Why she does become victim? (devotee laughs) *I think yesterday I was talking that this Indira Gandhi was going to the hospital for abortion, twice times in a year. That is discussed . . . (indistinct) . . . there are many, Indira Gandhi—we don't wish to discuss—but she is, that is . . . she has no culture, no character, she's not very much educated. But anyway, so*-called education, what is the value? And she is leader. Whatever she says, that is final. I think somebody told me that Nixon, "Resign on condition from . . . (indistinct)" *Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. It is secret, but it is well*-accepted fact. So Ford pardoned him. Prabhupāda: So that means he is dishonest. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: For his post as president he played this dishonesty. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. He made a deal. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is the king's duty to see that there must be judgment for culprit and innocent. But from the very beginning, start, the judgment is in favor of the rogue. Then how we can expect justice? Beginning is dishonesty. Anyway, this should be reduced. They do not want character. No religion, no character. That's a different . . . Paramahaṁsa: That is why they will consider us . . . consider this philosophy—the people in power—they will consider this philosophy very dangerous to them, because it would make it so that they could not plunder so easily. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: It would make it so they can't plunder as easily. The people have some knowledge, then it won't be as easy for the leaders to plunder, to exploit. So they don't want the people to have this knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Then our preaching is finished. There is a story of this "have knowledge." One brahmin , he was very much poverty*-stricken, so he could not find any things, valuable. Very poverty-stricken. So he knew one gang of thieves, so he went there. He met that chief, gang, "Sir, I know you. I have no . . . (indistinct) . . . so I have come to you. You can also take me as one of you . . . (indistinct) . . . I can steal." So "All right, you may come." So they went to some house to plunder. All the assistants were plundering here and there, and he was also doing also. So as soon as he touches something, he remembered, "If I steal this gold, then such-and-such punishment will be assessed." He is a brāhmaṇa-pandit , he knows. "How can I steal?" He left over that. Then he touches something else, . . . (indistinct) . . . and he remembers . . . Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) Not a very good crook. Prabhupāda: So he saw that the householder, they chewed some pān , and after chewing he has thrown, so he took that. "I don't see . . . (indistinct) . . . let's go." Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: So when they gathered together, the leader: "What you have stolen? What you have got?" Somebody said: "We have so much . . ." And when he was asked, he said: "I have got this." (devotees laugh) So he became very angry, "So how can you stay with us, you cannot be a thief?" "Where I was searching I got so many opportunities, but after searching, the śāstra says, "If you steal like that, you suffer like this. Kindly don"t do that.' Therefore I thought there is no any injunction for this." So (laughing) the leader could understand. Then out of sympathy he said: "All right, you are poor man. You came to us, you cannot steal, so whatever we have got today you can take it." Then he said: "How can I take it? It is stolen property." And he went away, again the same poverty*-stricken. He could not improve his position. *So this is the social condition. And if we teach them not to become drunkard, not to become women*-hunter, the modern society, they find that "Where is our business? Our business is to keep hotels, brothels and, what is called, topless, bottomless hotels, and drinking house and smoking cigarettes, and then so many . . . and where is our business? To teach the lowest to give up this . . . (indistinct) . . . where is our business? Then we have to close up." Paramahaṁsa: Wow. Prabhupāda: This is our position. Therefore it is said: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." That I was thinking in the beginning, that "I have come here as wise man . . . (indistinct) . . . how these rascals will accept? They are so much addicted to all these things." I never expected that anyone will accept it. It is simply Kṛṣṇa's grace that some of you have accepted it; otherwise I was hopeless. Bon Mahārāja was hopeless. He left, and so many big, big horses came, and I was a little horse . . . Boro boro ghoda gelo rasatal, beto ghoda bole koto jol. (Big big horses got swept away but the pony wants to know how much water is there.) Horse, they’re swimmer. But the stream was so strong, big, big horses were carried away. And one pony, he came, "Can you tell me how much water is there?" That means he wants to cross over. He was informed that many, many big horses, they jumped over and were carried away, but still he stayed. So my position was like that. Big, big Vivekananda and so on and so on, so many came, and they became victimized themselves. Instead of stopping illicit sex he became subject to illicit sex, and when he returned India he brought with him two women secretaries and intimate companions. That was Vivekananda. One was Sister Nivedita, and another was some other obscure, some. He could not find any male disciples. He took to cheat women. This is Vivekananda's achievement . . . (indistinct) . . . when he retired, two women, and one of them was very intimately connected. This is . . . Paramahaṁsa: The more that people accept and understand what you are teaching, the more dangerous you will be seen. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: The more dangerous you will be seen. You will be seen as a threat to the way of life, so there will be so many powers that want to stop. And universities are connected with the government. Universities are part of the . . . actually government sponsored. The government is full of the biggest rogues, so, er . . . but on the university campuses there are some good people. In other words, there are some intelligent people in the universities who will be able to appreciate. Prabhupāda: So why they keep the subject matter in philosophy? They . . . the subject matter is spent—atheist. We study, people who are atheists, moralists. Devotee (2): (showing something) Is that all right? Prabhupāda: Aiye . Yesterday you were talking about the philosophy of not the person but the soul who is in the person, like that. What did you say, Gaurasundara told you? Govinda dāsī: That the principle . . . it's the principle of guru , not the person. In other words, not . . . you're saying that to worship and serve you directly as Śrīla Prabhupāda as the personality that we know and love is . . . Prabhupāda: So he is following the principles of guru's instruction? Govinda dāsī: Well, he doesn't . . . he's changing all the time. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Then what is the use? Govinda dāsī: So it's not . . . I expect him to continue to change. But this is just what he is most . . . Prabhupāda: Change means he has no knowledge. He has not taken any knowledge. Change means that. Govinda dāsī: In other words, he is saying that the . . . Prabhupāda: But what is the use of his saying, if he is saying today something, tomorrow he will say something else? What is the use of his saying? Govinda dāsī: Well, there are a number of people who also accept what he is saying. Prabhupāda: That's all right. One fool is followed by another. That is another thing. But with this changing, then what is the value of his saying? And apart from that, there is Radhakrishnan's statement that Lord Kṛṣṇa, the person, er, the spirit within. That is Radhakrishnan's philosophy. This is not applicable to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa . . . we have got inside soul; *outside, this material body. Kṛṣṇa is all*-spiritual, therefore He has no such distinction, "inside" or "outside." We conditioned souls, we are inside, the soul; outside, this material body. And it is changing. Today I have got this body, next another body, next another body. Therefore I as spirit soul, Brahman, I am different from my body. Kṛṣṇa is not like that. Kṛṣṇa has no changing. He is Supreme Brahman. He hasn't got to change. Without changing He can be present anywhere and everywhere. That is His . . . *So Dr. Radhakrishnan's statement, it is wrong, and we protest that he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. And therefore we condemn him, that he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and still he is writing commentary on Bhagavad*-gītā . Just like Gandhi, he also, they . . . to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy job. Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye ( BG 7.3): out of millions and millions people, somebody has tried to become perfect. That's a fact. Who is eager to become perfect, so many? Nobody cares for it. "Hah! Let me enjoy life." Kṛṣṇa also says the same thing: manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye , "Somebody tries to become perfect," and yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ , "and those who have become perfect, out of many of them, one may know Me." *So to understand Kṛṣṇa is not easy. Even those who have become perfect, they cannot understand. So the Radhakrishnan, how he can understand? He is not perfect even. Amongst the perfect also it is very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa. So we see that. Gandhi says that, "I don't believe that there was any person ever living as Kṛṣṇa." Just see. This is the position of big, big, so*-called big men. They do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa. And still they have the audacity to write comments on Gītā . So what will Gaurasundara will understand? Therefore why has he changed? Paramahaṁsa: Gaurasundara is using . . . Kṛṣṇa as separate from His body? Govinda dāsī: No, the spiritual master is not, I don't think . . . the spiritual master should not be served on the material platform but like we are serving. He considers all this on the material platform, our service to you directly, our service to Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: Then he does not know . . . *Govinda dāsī: That's a low*-level sentiment. Prabhupāda: Spiritual activities are not on the material platform. Govinda dāsī: The spiritual master is not to be considered . . . (sounds in background) Prabhupāda: (aside) Why don't you take one almirah ? This big almirah ? Devotee: All right. Prabhupāda: So that "inside," "outside" is not for Kṛṣṇa. Govinda dāsī: It's not for the spiritual master either. Prabhupāda: Yes, not for the spiritual master. Govinda dāsī: It's not to be applied to the spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: It's not to be applied to the spiritual master, either, just like . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: The spiritual master is not to be considered . . . I mean, I consider you to be completely on the spiritual platform . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already explained: sākṣād*-dharitvena . He is directly like. That is to be understood. That's a fact. If somebody thinks that he has got a material body, even if one thinks that is material body, that body is not acting materially. The body is acting as spiritual. So even you say that he has got a material body, the body is no more acting materially—therefore it is spiritual. Paramahaṁsa: Yes . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: And he also, this attitude . . . and this has been ever since he first left, since the first time, when he first left, and has continued as his attitude. Since the first time actually he took . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Even Vaiṣṇava . . . Govinda dāsī: . . . that all spiritual masters are the same. *Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava . . . vaiṣṇave jāti*-buddhi : anything that is spiritually engaged, that is spiritual. Why the spiritual master? Anything. Now this table (knocks on table), it is used for spiritual purpose—therefore it is spiritual. The temple . . . why the temple was? Because temple is not an ordinary thing. It is used for spiritual purpose. Everything is used. Paramahaṁsa: The example of Lord Caitanya carrying Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Devotee: Er, excuse me. There is that one Indian doctor, the lady doctor who came to see you last time, she came, and she want to know if she can see you now or sometime . . . *Prabhupāda: No, she can come. So anything engaged in spiritual service . . . the example is the iron rod put into the fire. Everyone knows it is iron rod, but it acts as fire. (break) So why not anything which is always engaged in spiritual service is not spiritual? Where is the difficulty to understand? Anyone who has no other business than spiritual, then he is spiritual. The same example: when the rod is not acting as iron rod but acting as fire, so what is the objection to call it fire? Actually it is burning. Why it should be iron? Eh? Where is the argument? So anyone—spiritual master or anyone—who is twenty*-four-hours engaged in spiritual service, he is spiritual. Even though he has got this material body, he is spiritual . . . aiye! Indian lady: Namaskāra. Prabhupāda: Namaskāra. Indian Lady: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Accha. Besh . . . (Okay. Fine . . .) Bālajī? Indian lady: Ah, Bālajī. Paramahaṁsa: The example of Lord Caitanya carrying the body of Haridāsa Ṭhākura is evidence that the body is perfectly spiritual. *Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . if you want to argue, this is the argument, logic. So how you can refute it? An iron rod, you put into the fire. Everyone knows that it is iron rod. And when it is red hot, then even though you know it is iron rod, but it is fire. Similarly, material body, when it is saturated with spiritual activities, it is no more material. What is material and spiritual, what is the distinction? The distinction is that when we forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Now we say it is day because there is light, and when there is no light it is night. But where is the situation changed? The situation is the same: the same planet, the same tree, the same house. Now we say it is day, and at night the same house, the same land, the same tree, it will be night. So what is the difference? The difference is presence and absence of the sun. So on account of presence and absence of Kṛṣṇa things become material and spiritual. If you keep yourself always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness then you are spiritual, and if you forget Kṛṣṇa, material. Just like the sky. The sky is always clear, but when there is occasional appearance of the cloud then you say the sky is not clear. Sky is always clear. When it is covered by the cloud it is called not clear. Clearness means surpassing the condition of not*-clearness. Paramahaṁsa: Surpassing the condition of what? Prabhupāda: (to guest) You can come here. So if you keep always in clear condition, then it is all right. That is Brahman. And if you bring cloud, then it is material, polluted. So the cloud is not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Consciousness is there. If you keep it always Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is spiritual, and if you bring some other consciousness—material things—then it is material consciousness. Consciousness is already there. That the sky is already there, you bring in clouds, then it is not clear . . . the whole night cloudy sky, and then as soon as the cloud is cleared, the sky is very nice. Similarly, we are trying to bring Kṛṣṇa, or clear sky. That is our program. Actually that is the condition of sky. Sky is always clear. Some portion, it becomes dark on account of; *tiny portion. When this Hawaii, it is cloudy, it does not mean the whole sky is cloudy. Millions and millions of miles you go out of the cloud you will see everything clear. By aeroplane you have got experience. Downward the plane you will find some clouds, say few thousand miles, but what is few thousand miles in the sky? Few million miles also is nothing. Therefore the spiritual world is unlimited. It is only, only portion—this material world—little portion. Ekāṁśena sthito jagat , that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā (BG 10.42). Only a little portion, this material world. Not that this material world is a, I mean . . . no. The sky is expanding four billion miles up and down, this diameter. Even a few million miles covered by cloud, what is that? How many millions make a billion? (pause) Prabhupāda: Hundred million? Paramahaṁsa: Yes, I think so. Prabhupāda: Or thousand million? There is . . . so this question of billions of miles, so say even one million of miles becomes cloudy. That is not joke, one million miles; *you cannot imagine. Twenty*-five thousand miles, finish our world. What is the question of million? If you go twenty-five thousand miles, then the world area is finished. So this question of millions . . . millions, many millions, billion and such four billion. That is the space. So even hundred miles, two hundred miles, that is cloudy, it doesn't affect the sky, neither the sun. We are affected. Our eyes are covered. We say: "There is no sun." We are affected; *not that there is no God, there is no sun. We are poor fellow. Our teeny knowledge is affected, and we say there is no sun. Just like same, rabbit philosophy: close the eyes—there is no enemy . . . the enemy is in front, to kill him. He, out of fear, closes the eyes, and he thinks there is no enemy. And the maṇḍūka, kūpa*-maṇḍūka , three-feet water, he thinks that this is the area of water. And if he is informed about the Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, what he will understand? And every one of these rascals, they are trying to understand God from his standard of understanding. Kūpa-maṇḍūka . Just like the frog is trying to understand Atlantic Ocean by measuring the well, that's all. This is position. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). He does not know what is the real position. Paraṁ bhāvam. Paraṁ bhāvam, ajānanto —without any knowledge. So we have to take knowledge of God from God. That we have got. Don't manufacture your God. Rascal, that will never be successful. All the rascals, they are manufacturing their own God, and this is being supported: yato mata tato patha . (addressing Indian lady) Apni jana ? Yato mata tato patha. Indian lady: Ki ? Prabhupāda: Yato mata tato patha. Indian lady: Ah . . . (indistinct) . . . roads. Prabhupāda: Ah. Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says mām ekaṁ , but these rascals say: "No, no, you can manufacture anything, and you can go." Paramahaṁsa: Is that what Siddha says? Govinda dāsī: Siddha? More or less. Prabhupāda: But that is the way, that . . . Govinda dāsī: That all the ways are the same. That . . . Prabhupāda: "You are perfect, I am perfect." If I say you are imperfect, then I become. Indian lady: They are using that in psychology now, "I'm okay, you're are okay." And then next they say the same connection, you know. Guest: "I'm okay, you are okay." It's a philosophy, so everything's all right. (laughter) Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says: "I am okay. You are not okay. You surrender." That is it. Paramahaṁsa: The psychologists now, they . . . Indian lady: They are using the same philosophy. Prabhupāda: They have no other way, because they are imperfect. So if I say: "You are imperfect," then I remain imperfect. Indian lady: No, but they are saying that, "You are all right and I am all right." Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, unless I say you are all right, how I can become all right? Indian lady: This is why they are using this. Prabhupāda: This is the reason. This is the reason. If I say: "You are not all right," then you will say: "You are also not perfect." (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: And I want you . . . Prabhupāda: Just to make a compromise. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So I am right, you are right. Paramahaṁsa: Because you don't want anyone to say that . . . Prabhupāda: He's wrong! (laughter) Govinda dāsī: The thing is accepted . . . Indian lady: Yes. They don't dig up your past, and they don't have to know anything about, so you become more equal with them, and then they accept you as you are. It is working better with the . . . Prabhupāda: What is working? Indian lady: This concept. Prabhupāda: "That is working" means you do not die? Indian lady: No, but . . . you're going to die. Prabhupāda: Then why . . . how it is working? Govinda dāsī: More or less there are so many . . . Prabhupāda: What do you mean by working? Indian lady: It means that this problem they are raising . . . Prabhupāda: What is the problem? Indian lady: You are . . . Prabhupāda: Your problem is that you do not wish to die, but you will die. That is the real problem. Indian lady: I think we want to die, that we can't avoid it. Prabhupāda: Then where is your problem solved? Indian lady: That is I . . . Prabhupāda: You make a compromise. The problem is not solved. Your problem is, "I do not want to die." You are sitting, now there is something, danger, signal, immediately you will be afraid, "What shall I do?" That means you do not want to die. This is your problem. Indian lady: As long as we have fear of death, we are not free. Prabhupāda: There must be death, and there must be fear. Then where is your problem solved? That is foolishness, "Now okay, everything is okay." What is okay? Paramahaṁsa: Nothing is okay. Prabhupāda: They are foolishness. Where you are okay? (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: And when you say like that, they say: "You are a pessimist." Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. But you cannot say okay. (laughter) Devotee: You are a realist. Prabhupāda: These are rascals, simply rascals. Paramahaṁsa: It's like the rabbits. Prabhupāda: You say? Paramahaṁsa: If they can . . . Prabhupāda: They say okay. Close the eyes and "Okay." Paramahaṁsa: Everything is okay. And they look at each other and say: "It's okay, it's okay, it's okay . . ." but all around them is death, but they are helping keeping themself in illusion, helping keep each other in illusion. Indian lady: But let me explain to you that they know also that they are okay. Paramahaṁsa: But they are not. That's illusion, though. Indian lady: But they are not okay, but still it makes them feel okay that, "If he is all right, I am also all right." So . . . Prabhupāda: That is called frog philosophy. Indian lady: What is? Prabhupāda: Frog philosophy. (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: Frog philosophy. *Prabhupāda: The frog within the well, three*-feet water. Indian lady: Yes. Prabhupāda: He thinks, "My knowledge of water is complete." But when his friend says: "Oh, there is vast water," "What is that, four feet? All right, five feet?" He will calculate, "Three feet? All right, little more? Four feet? Come on. Six feet? Ten feet?" He cannot think of actually what is Pacific Ocean. He is making "okay," like that. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Three to four, four to five, five to six. Paramahaṁsa: It seems like . . . Prabhupāda: He does not know any number of feet he will increase, it is not okay. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: He does not know. Paramahaṁsa: People want to be in illusion that it's okay so that they can enjoy more nicely, because if they are not feeling that it's okay, that there is some danger, then they can't be in the enjoying spirit as much. They can't have the spirit of enjoyment. So to be able to enjoy the world better, they like to have a mind which is . . . Prabhupāda: Crippled. (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: Crippled. (laughs) They would say relaxed. Illusioned. Govinda dāsī: They don't want to be in anxiety. Prabhupāda: That is their opinion. Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to know the truth, because that would . . . *Prabhupāda: That is called kūpa*-maṇḍūka-nyāya, a crippled mind. A frog in the well. The same philosophy. Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to know. Indian lady: Yeah, they don't want to know the truth. It hurts. Paramahaṁsa: Because then it would make it so they would not enjoy it so nicely. Indian lady: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: They would also have to change. Indian lady: . . . (indistinct) Paramahaṁsa: They are . . . everybody is always continually trying to forget death. They have so many ways to try to forget. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is advised by . . . I think Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, that the karmīs should think always that he will never die; otherwise he cannot work. Paramahaṁsa: He can't enjoy. He can't do anything. Prabhupāda: And those who are jñānīs , they should think always, "I may die immediately." That is the difference between karmī and jñānī . Paramahaṁsa: "I may die immediately"? Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Is there any guarantee that you will not die immediately? Indian lady: When we think that, then we are . . . Prabhupāda: You think—it is a fact. You think or not think. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is a fact. Therefore I was saying the other day that to die, there is no wonder, but to live, that is wonder. Because you can die at any moment. So you are still living, that is wonder. Indian lady: Yes. Prabhupāda: And death, everyone knows, "I will die." So where is wonder? Nobody won't die. So death is not wonder. To live is wonder. Therefore we should utilize the lifetime properly, not a single moment lost. Then it will . . . living is wonder. Death is not wonder. Any moment you can die. And they are happily running this car—at any moment he can die. Is there any insurance that they will not die? There is insurance of car accident, but there is no insurance that he will not die. Just go to one insurance company that you will not die. Then you will be prosecuted. So this is a fact. Death is not wonder; to live is wonder. *That Khaṭvāṅga*-rāja, he joined with the demigods to fight with the demons. So the demigods were very much pleased. They wanted to give some benediction, "You have done so much for us. You take some benediction." He first of all questioned, "Now what is the duration of my life, left, balance?" Then they said: "Your duration of life is one moment," according to their calculations. So he immediately thought it wise, "Then what is the use of your benediction? Let me take sannyāsa ." This is intelligence, that "I am living; *this is wonder. I can die at any moment. So I have to finish my Kṛṣṇa conscious business." So not a single moment should be wasted. This is . . . that I can die at any moment, and if you do not finish my Kṛṣṇa consciousness business before death, then I do not know how I am going to change my body. If I finish my Kṛṣṇa conscious business, then, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), then I can go back to home, back to Godhead. If I do not finish, then I will have to change this body. Yes. That is seriousness of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Labdhvā sudurlabham idaṁ bahu*-sambhavānte mānuṣyam arthadam (SB 11.9.29). I have got this body, human form of body, after evolution of so many species and forms of life. They do not know. They are doomed to . . . (indistinct) So one who will mislead him, he is his friend, and one who will speak the real truth . . . Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to hear you. Prabhupāda: "Swami is very conservative," they say. "Bhaktivedanta Swami is very conservative." Can I change my . . . (indistinct)? "Swamiji, you are very conservative." Because I do not say: "Whatever you like, you do; whatever you like, you drink; whatever you like . . ." There is no . . . Paramahaṁsa: "You're okay, I'm okay." Prabhupāda: "Everything okay." That I do not. Therefore I am not popular. Paramahaṁsa: They do not want to hear of their actual position. Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Just now you were saying people do not like it. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. No, I am saying, that . . . yes. (laughs) Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to hear . . . if you say: "You are going to die," they immediately get mad at you, "Don't tell me about that. I don't want to know about that." (laughter) "I almost forgot. I was just forgetting that." (laughs) People are amazed that we are always talking about death. They don't want to talk about death. They don't want to hear about death. They hide death; they don't want to think of it in any way. But it seems that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. I have heard many big men that say, "Why you bother about death?" You are dying at every moment, before the actual death. They say. Because you are bothering about death, that means before actual death you are dying every moment. Death, "Why you care for death? Let it come when it will come." That is their philosophy. Paramahaṁsa: It means they are afraid of . . . Prabhupāda: You are afraid of death, that means before actual death you are simply dying. You have no enjoyment of life. This is their argument. Devotee: Sometimes their philosophy is, "Death is just one moment and life is many, many moments. So why not think about life?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: But that means that they are afraid of death. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, I know their argument. Indian lady: No, but the ones who know that they are going to die, if they have . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . blinking eyes. Paramahaṁsa: The devotee is . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I have said the karmīs shall forget about death, then they will be able to work. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hard, like ass. The ass does not know, like that. He loads the body, tons of clothes, washerman. So remain ass. Karmī means ass. The karmi , they are compared with ass. Paramahaṁsa: There is that story . . . Prabhupāda: Just like this tomato, so many tomatoes. I'll eat . . . I may eat one or two. But why they are collecting so much? So these rascal karmī , they are collecting money, collecting money, eat. So there will be used only a few dollars. Therefore they are ass. You don't require so much money, and he will pick all the girlfriends to go there and talk . . . (indistinct) Devotee: They will find some ridiculous use for it, if they have it. Paramahaṁsa: That is difficult. They have a hard time finding money. Prabhupāda: Ass means he does not know his actual interest. He'll eat some grass, and the grass is available everywhere, but he is thinking that "If I do not carry the load of the washerman I'll not get." This is ass. Indian lady: Grass . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Hah? Indian lady: (indistinct Hindi) . . . you call it grass. Something . . . Prabhupāda: No, the ass eats grass. Indian lady: Oh, the ass eats grass. Oh. Prabhupāda: So grass is available everywhere, but he has become the servant of the washerman because the washerman gives some grass. After taking his service, carrying tons of cloth, he cannot move. He is doing that. He is thinking, "I must have to do this because otherwise this washerman will not give me grass." He does not need anything more than the grass, a few morsels. As soon as the ass comes to the destination, then the load is taken away and he is given some grass, and he stands there whole day. Again he will load. So why he is standing, thinking himself as dependent on the washerman? Because he is thinking, "The washerman is giving me grass." He does not think that, "I can get grass anywhere sufficiently. Why shall I remain a servant of the washerman?" That is ass quality, mūḍhā . They can get very easily their food, huh, by plowing some land with some bull. But they are starting big, big industry. Big, big. Why? And the land is neglected. They are not growing food grains, they are growing sugarcane, the others, pineapple. Who will eat so much sugar, pine? No. They will do business. This is capitalism. Therefore the Communists, they are revolting, "Why shall I serve him?" (end) Conversation -- May 15, 1976, Honolulu Prabhupāda: . . . she still upstairs? *Rādhā*-vallabha: No, Prabhupāda. Pālikā is up there now learning how to cook from her. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Pālikā has gone up there to learn cooking from her, and then she will come back and instruct the cooks in L.A. Devotee (2): She wrote . . . Pālikā wrote one letter saying that she wanted . . . her husband took sannyāsa , isn't it? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Bhavānanda. Devotee (2): She wanted to stay at that farm. She knew it a long time ago. *Rādhā*-vallabha: She is staying at the Press now. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: She works at the Press, Pālikā. Prabhupāda: Pālikā. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. She is transcribing all of the tapes of you lecturing back from 1966, all the way to the present. We are going to have an archive. We want to get every word that you say while you are here. Prabhupāda: So Yamunā's āśrama , how far? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Āśrama ? Devotee (3): From Los Angeles? *Rādhā*-vallabha: A thousand miles maybe. Devotee (3): It's closer to San Francisco—very far. Devotee (2): Perhaps a thousand miles, because Los Angeles is on the southern portion of California, the southern half, and Oregon is . . . remember we went to Portland? Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee (2): It's Portland, and then we went to . . . we drove across to Eugene that one day, you did a program there. Śyāmasundara was driving very fast. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee (2): I was in the car that day, and it's more or less in that area of Eugene, I believe. So it is somewhere in between, around there, that area, Portland. Prabhupāda: Near Portland? Devotee (2): Yes. It's Oregon. Portland is . . . it is a horizontal state. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oregon I remember. So . . . Devotee (2): She mentioned that she would like to come, but because there is only two of them there, and they are taking care of the Deities and they don't have much money, they may not be able to. She would like to come and see you. Prabhupāda: Money—we can send some money. Devotee (2): Hm. But then she was wondering who would take care of the Deities. Prabhupāda: No, we can go there. Devotee (2): (laughs) Prabhupāda: See how they are doing. Devotee (2): (laughing) I don't know if they're . . . I don't know what kind of facilities they will have there, though, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No facilities. (devotees laugh) Just what facility? We are not for facility, we are for service. Devotee (2): I know that. Hari Śauri: At least you'll get some good cooking. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari Śauri: At least you'll get some good cooking. Prabhupāda: Not necessary. Devotee (2): We don't know if there is a road up to the house or anything, really. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): Some farms, you know, they don't have roads up to the houses. We just don't know what the situation is. We have to make some inquiry first. (to devotees) Do you know anything about it? I don't know. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Jayatīrtha was there, I think. Now he is in England. Devotee (2): We can perhaps find out in Los Angeles a little bit more. I can write one letter to Yamunā. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Pālikā will be back. We can find . . . Devotee (2): So I will write and ask them what the situation of their farm is. Hari Śauri: Revatīnandana has been there. Prabhupāda: No man is allowed there, right? Devotee (2): So far I know. They are trying to remain completely free from any men whatsoever. Prabhupāda: That's good. *Rādhā*-vallabha: You know, in Los Angeles, Pālikā and Jadurāṇī have both cut all their hair. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Pālikā and Jadurāṇī have both cut all their hair off. (break) Prabhupāda: That's good. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Ha. Jaya . Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic system. Those who are husbandless, they should not dress attractively to attract the attention of another man. It is very difficult civilization for the Westerner. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Viśākā will be coming here to . . . for photography for BTG. She will be here soon. Devotee (2): It appears, though, that her farm is not growing very much. Prabhupāda: There is no need of growing. Devotee (2): Because there was two of them before, and still two. They are not expanding at all. Hari Śauri: Prabhupāda wrote to them not to expand. Devotee (2): But they haven't expanded at all. Prabhupāda: What is the use of expanding? Devotee (2): No women perhaps want to stay there? I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is tapasya , austerity. But she is maintaining? Devotee (2): Apparently. Prabhupāda: Deity picture is nice. Devotee (2): Yes. Flowers, everything. Prabhupāda: Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa . This is the beginning of spiritual life. Yesterday I have explained one verse, how Lord Rāmacandra comes . . . you have transcribed? *Devotee (2): On the tape? I am not quite there yet. I have only done about a third of it so far. I am on that verse where Kṛṣṇa's, His body is described, I think it's the twelfth or thirteenth verse. Kṛṣṇa's body is described as the universe. He is the oldest, and . . . there was one word, dāt*-te. Prabhupāda: Hm. Datte, datte . Devotee (2): What is that? Because I couldn't pick it up on the tape. Prabhupāda: Datte means "maintaining." Devotee (2): Datte asya ? Prabhupāda: Hm. I am describing . . . there is one verse how the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to teach the human society as Lord Rāmacandra, as Kṛṣṇa, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu. You have come to that? Devotee (2): Not yet. I'll be doing that today, finishing. Prabhupāda: I think one copy of that explanation may be given with the letter of Bajaj. Devotee (2): OK. *Prabhupāda: These rascals are manufacturing. Now they are holding this conference on account of me. Because there are so many rascals, they have interpreted Bhagavad*-gītā in so many ways, but they could not do anything, and here our propaganda is going on all over the world. Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: So they are a little ashamed. (devotees laugh) Devotee (2): Are they genuinely ashamed, or are they . . . Prabhupāda: Genuinely. Because they see, "Who cares for us?" Devotee: Who is this? Devotee (2): There are some men in Bombay, they have a conference, *Gītā* pracar conference. Prabhupāda: That Bajaj is a very rich man, and the son of very important man of Gandhi's contemporary, Vinoba Bhave, and his father, Gandhi, they were working together. His father's name was Jamnalal Bajaj. A very rich man, he joined Gandhi's movement and was financing the movement. So this man is also very big, rich man in Bombay. Very big factory of electrical . . . what is called? Devotee (2): Light bulbs? Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee (2): Light bulbs? Prabhupāda: No, no. Electrical, this fan, plug . . . Devotee (2): Appliances. Prabhupāda: Appliances, yes. Very big factory in India. Table fan, ceiling fan, all kinds of appliances. Stove. They have got very big factory, and he is the proprietor. He is our life member. He came to see me: "Is it not possible to call that? I am ready." The same thing, "I am ready." Devotee (2): Your Divine Grace is already doing . . . why don't they just join our society? Prabhupāda: And they have got this rascal interpretation. Even Gandhi did. That is individuality. Devotee (2): Why do they want to develop a separate society, *Gītā* pracar conference, or their separate work, when they can simply support our work, which is doing it already? Prabhupāda: He is organizing. He is trying to organize. But why not combine? Any moment it can be done, but this rascal will not agree. They stick their own foolishness. It will never be successful. Misinterpreting on the words of Kṛṣṇa, how much offensive it is they do not know it, and they want success. They do not take seriously that it is Kṛṣṇa's instruction. They think that somebody has written a, what is called, allegory. Devotee (2): Mythology? Prabhupāda: Mythology, yes. They do not believe there was battle of Kurukṣetra and Kṛṣṇa instructed . . . Kṛṣṇa is God and . . . they all these things . . . *Rādhā*-vallabha: At the most they will admit that Kṛṣṇa was a great personality. Prabhupāda: That's all. All this Cinmayananda and this Vinoba Bhave and Gandhi and Dr. Radhakrishnan, and all rascals, Aurabindo . . . they have taken it. Devotee (2): The evidence is there in the Vedic scriptures. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): The evidence is there in the Vedic scriptures, but it seems that they have developed this Māyāvādī philosophy, to "the within of Kṛṣṇa," that Radhakrishnan's philosophy. People have come to accept that. *Prabhupāda: Radhakrishnan has accepted, "That is very difficult, to deny Personality of God by reading Bhagavad*-gītā ." Devotee: He wrote that? (laughter) *Rādhā*-vallabha: He tried. Prabhupāda: He tried his best, but it is hardly . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): Rascals. Prabhupāda: One after another. Devotee (2): They didn't at all want to serve the purpose of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Impersonalists. "How God can be person?" They compare with themselves: "But I am a person, what can I do? How can I experience the sky?" They are in perplexity. *Devotee (2): So why do they touch Bhagavad*-gītā then? Prabhupāda: Because it is so authorized and popular. They take the advantage, proving their foolish rascal idea. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Maharishi also did one translation . . . Devotee (2): The first six chapters. *Rādhā*-vallabha: . . . very nonsense. He talks about Bhagavad-gītā as if it were some sort of high school physics course. Prabhupāda: What? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He speaks of Bhagavad-gītā in the terms of physics, energy, so much nonsense. It's impossible to understand it. Prabhupāda: Now they are becoming entrapped. " As It Is ." *Rādhā*-vallabha: By Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: And they accept it. (laughter) And this is becoming very popular; therefore they are perplexed. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Bahulāśva Prabhu goes to the colleges . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Bahulāśva gives lectures in the colleges, and he hands out Gītās to all the students, and during the lecture he says: "So turn to page such-and-such and you will see where it talks about karma ," and then, "Turn to this page . . ." And they are all going through the book, going through the book, and after the class he usually sells about five books, because they are so impressed that someone is so well versed in the Gītā and can explain it so nicely, and they take the book because they have never seen this before. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is . . . (pause and sipping noise, Prabhupāda puts cup down on table) Prabhupāda: Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam ( BG 7.25). *Rādhā*-vallabha: Sometimes the scholar accused that your translation has a Vaiṣṇava slant. (laughter) They say that although the translations are slanted towards the devotional side, still it is a very nice book. Devotee (2): That means they have some preconception already, of . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? *Devotee (2): That means they have some preconception already, what to expect from Bhagavad*-gītā . They have been contaminated. Hari Śauri: The library party was saying that . . . Prabhupāda: Who? Hari Śauri: The library party, one of them was telling me that when they present . . . the scholars, they get the books, and they like the layout and the Sanskrit and everything like that, but they are not so keen on the purports because they can't speculate on anything. It's so clear and direct they've got nothing left to say themselves. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So we cannot allow any speculation. (laughter) Just see the audacity—they are speculating on the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such rascals, and we have to accept them as authority. In Bengal it is called jakamor Jakam . Just like if a small boy speaks authoritatively before his father, superior, it is called jakam . What do you call it in English? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Upstart. Prabhupāda: Upstart, impudent. So all these rascals are jakam . *Rādhā*-vallabha: You describe that in the Third Canto, where Vidura was referred to Maitreya by Uddhava, because Uddhava was afraid to speak; although he was qualified, he didn't want to speak while Maitreya was still present, because Maitreya was older. Devotee (2): It is an offense: moya davyati krama. Moya davyati krama Is that it? Hari Śauri: You say in the purport that you mention that if . . . for one to speak in the presence of a superior, then that's an offense. (child crying) Prabhupāda: Who is this particular child, always crying? Hari Śauri: These children, it's the children from the karmī side that make all the noise. Most of our children are all pretty quiet. Prabhupāda: No, he is . . . Devotee (2): This is a devotee. Hari Śauri: This is one of the devotees, but . . . Prabhupāda: . . . I am speaking of. He is always crying. Devotee (2): They could use a gurukula here, I think. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): They could use a gurukula on this island. Hari Śauri: I think all of those children in the morning, though, they are from the other island. *Rādhā*-vallabha: There are many devotees on the island of Maui. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: There are many devotees on the island of Maui, the next island. They don't live in the temple. They also have many children. (child is still crying) Devotee (2): Rāmeśvara said that Jagadīśa is taking very seriously to expand the gurukula program. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In Los Angeles one of the neighboring ladies, a karmī lady, she was passing by, and all the gurukula children were running around outside, and she said: "Oh, these are the nicest children I have ever seen." (child is still crying) Prabhupāda: This child is a little disturbing. Devotee (2): Yeah, suffering. Prabhupāda: In the temple, no gṛhasthas allowed. (laughter) Devotee (2): Jaya . Prabhupāda: Temple is meant for brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs. Gṛhasthas may be engaged in worshiping, taking care, managing, but families should remain outside. Devotee (2): The problem is most of these women with children, they don't have any husbands—unmarried. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): One woman, she came the other day, she has one child, no husband. She was living here, and she was asked to leave because there was no space. Now she is living in the back of a car with her baby. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): She is living in the back of a car with her baby. She has no blanket even to take care of the child. No husband, just a baby living in the back of a car. Prabhupāda: Here? Devotee (2): Nearby. She's coming each morning to your lectures. Many of these women are unmarried with babies. Prabhupāda: This is the social problem: women without husband. And how scientific it was that the girl, as soon as she is above ten years, the father's responsibility, how to get her married. All my sisters were married from nine to twelve years. And the twelve years old, my second sister, she was belated . . . Devotee (2): Belated? Prabhupāda: It was lately. *Rādhā*-vallabha: She was old. *Prabhupāda: Twelve years. So my mother said to my father that, "This girl is not being married, I shall commit suicide." (devotees laugh) This is, I have seen. She was elder than me by three years, my second sister. So then hastily, somehow or other, she was married to my brother*-in-law as second wife. Second wife . . . the first wife died. Formerly the boys and girls were married earlier. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was married at the seventeen years old. He married for the second time at the age of twenty years. First wife death. So formerly this was the practice. Girl utmost ten to twelve years, and boy sixteen to seventeen or utmost thirty. Devotee (2): As soon as your sisters were married, did they remain in the same house, or did they live with the other family's house? Prabhupāda: Then, because she was twelve years old, so after one year, because generally in Bengal twelve to thirteen years is the age of puberty. My wife gave birth to first child when she was fourteen years. (devotees exclaim) She was married at eleven years old. So anyway, the idea is that it is the father's duty to get the daughter married somehow or other within thirteen years. Devotee (2): Before they reach puberty? Prabhupāda: This is Vedic system. Devotee (2): Very good system. Prabhupāda: Not necessarily the boy should be all well equipped. Simply to see that he is good health and he can work hard. That was all. No education, no money—nothing. Then depends on the fate. "I have given to you a boy who is healthy and he can work hard." Then they are fortunate. This was the system. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They also used astrology, didn't they? *Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. My mother's grandfather was very, very rich man, and his daughter was given to a boy whose family was rich, but they became poor, bankrupt. Practically poverty*-stricken. Ah, that boy. So my mother's grandmother preferred that, "This boy is hard-working and coming from a respectable family; *now they have become poor." So he gave her daughter to him, and later on my mother's grandmother gave him five hundred rupees to start some business. So that is at least 150 years ago, my mother's grandmother. So with that five hundred rupees he started a business, and he flourished in such a way that in Calcutta there is a place, it is called Kshetra. Kshetra, that Kshetra, he purchased the whole Kshetra. Now there are two big roads. One road is Govinda Chandra Auddy Road, that is the husband of my mother's aunt, and another road, Rakhal Chandra Auddy, that is my maternal uncle. So with that five hundred rupees he made a great fortune. And he had no money. It was given secretly by the mother*-in-law, that "You do something with that." Devotee (2): What kind of business did he . . .? *Prabhupāda: His . . . later on he did a, started business, some lace, lace*-making. Not very lucrative, but still. So Indians still believe that that is the . . . (indistinct) . . . the verdict of all Vedic literature, tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ (SB 1.5.18). You cannot create your fortune unless God gives you; *but you can make honest effort, then depend on God. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana (BG 2.47). That is Indian philosophy. Therefore they did not make too much endeavor—easy*-going—but do something; don't be idle. That is the philosophy. So still there is no problem. The boy is married, and he works honestly, and the wife also works honestly as householder. They live peacefully. Not that "I must have this comfort, that comfort." Just like our, that rascal . . . (break) No. All this Western wife means, they call it "White elephant." In India they call it. Devotee (2): You . . .? White women? Prabhupāda: White elephant, to maintain. Because formerly people were . . . boys were coming in the Western countries, sometimes they married European wife, and later on, after going back, they found it is a white elephant. (devotees laugh) Devotee (2): That's great. Prabhupāda: White elephant, I mean, if you cannot maintain properly, then there was divorce. Devotee (2): These women are never satisfied. Prabhupāda: Therefore they found it "White elephant," to maintain an elephant, white in color. (devotees laugh) Hari Śauri: A white elephant is particularly useless? Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari Śauri: A white elephant is more useless than another elephant? Prabhupāda: No, elephant nobody can maintain. It is very difficult to maintain, and he has to be given forty kilograms food daily, and kilo, what is called, forty kilos? Devotee (2): Hundred pounds. Hari Śauri: I was just wondering why white . . . Prabhupāda: You have seen elephant? Devotee (2): Yes, in India. Prabhupāda: Ha. For them such big capātīs are made. (devotee laughs) A whole family's wheat flour will be given, and that is also not sufficient. So many capātīs should be given. Only the kings. Now the princely order is finished, now there is no transaction for elephant, horse. No customers. Formerly there was a market yearly held: horse, elephant, all animals, cows, they were being sold, near Patna. Big. Now since last twenty years it is stopped. Nobody is going to purchase horse and . . . Hari Śauri: That, er, so . . . (break) . . . diminishing, they can't afford to keep them. Prabhupāda: Twenty is maintaining in this age; that is also to his credit, and dowry. Devotee (2): They want to do away with that also. Prabhupāda: And just see, when Kṛṣṇa's mother was married to Vasudeva, dowry: so many hundreds of chariots, so many horses, so many elephants, so many maidservants. Who will be able to keep them? Apart from ornament, jewelry, sārī to the girl, these things were also given, royal, royal family. Then if he can't maintain, then he'll not . . . otherwise what is the glory there, if he maintains only tin car? This is a tin car, canister. As soon as he is stuck up: brr, brr, brr. He has got experience, tin car. Where is elephant? *Rādhā*-vallabha: If the president just takes a little bit of money, they kick him out. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: If the president just takes a little bit of money, they kick him out immediately. Prabhupāda: President? *Rādhā*-vallabha: If the president of the United States . . . Prabhupāda: Ha. Ha. *Rādhā*-vallabha: . . . if he tries to use his position for a little bit of, ah, like a kingly enjoyment, then they just kick him out, because he's not a king. Prabhupāda: All of them are doing that. They are taking so many women. At least that Kennedy was, before. Devotee (2): Yes, that's been exposed. Prabhupāda: And this Nixon was also doing that. They take advantage. Devotee (2): There seems to be no solution, though, because in the Western society there is no protection offered by parents, so these people are coming to become devotees. So what do we do? How can we arrange our society? This is always point of discussion. Prabhupāda: We have to maintain them. They have come to Kṛṣṇa. How can we refuse them? Some arrangement may be made. The government must help. Approach government, that these unprotected girls . . . but they are . . . ha? Devotee (2): That's a very good idea. I don't know if they'll do . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, welfare society, they must pay. How we can maintain? But we cannot refuse them. Are they not getting welfare, money? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Some of them. With children they usually get welfare. Prabhupāda: So that money, they are giving to the society? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Usually they keep it for their apartment and food. It is not so much money; it is just enough for them to maintain. Prabhupāda: So they do not take prasādam in the temple? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Depends on where it is. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Depends on the location. In Los Angeles the householders get food stamps from the government, and they purchase their food like that, and they . . . Devotee (2): They . . . they are not really trained up, though. Pradyumna, he's a little bit sick, so some of the girls, they were wanting to help him, like Kuśa. So they had some food stamps, so they went out and bought the most nonsensical medicines. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): They went out and bought the most nonsensical modern medicines. Clorofil and so many things like this, and the price was $22. They bought with food stamps. Rather they could have bought so many things for offering to the Deities. Even the food stamps can be used, but no management. Prabhupāda: So this is a problem, to maintain these husbandless women. Devotee (2): Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: And also gṛhasthas . Devotee (2): Many of the gṛhasthas at least are doing saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): Many of the gṛhasthas are doing saṅkīrtana , going out and distributing books, preaching. Prabhupāda: They are giving some service. Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: That is wanted, gṛhastha . Just see the foolish law, that there is no sufficient boys to keep wife at least, and they have made laws, one wife. Why one wife? Devotee (2): In this philosophy of democracy there is not supposed to be any discrimination. They would say that this is discrimination against women, because in the Western countries actually the women have this concept that they are just as good as men. They are thinking like that, and the men are thinking also the women are probably just as good. They don't . . . Prabhupāda: Then why are they in difficulty, without husband? Devotee (2): The women argue that the men are also in difficulty. Prabhupāda: But they like that? This neglected position, lying down at the back of the car without any husband, without any provisions, they like it? Devotee (2): These white elephants are very crazy. Prabhupāda: If they like it, then let them be like that. Devotee (2): Western women are . . . they have no training at all. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They say that because they have been trained in the past that they are less intelligent and that they are weaker, therefore it has ruined them in their older age. They have to defeat all this. Devotee (2): They have to prove their independence by living without man's protection. Prabhupāda: They cannot appreciate that? Devotee (2): Man's protection? Not so much any more. There is a whole current of thought with this women's liberation. *Rādhā*-vallabha: There's no protection anyway. Devotee (2): Yes. The men run off anyway. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They are, in one sense, they are right, because the men do not protect them; they exploit them for sex life. So that is one reason why they are becoming successful in this philosophy. Prabhupāda: There is reason, but the man does not marry because there are so many implications. Devotee (2): But by nature's way women like to be protected. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore called svāmī, svāmī . Husband is called svāmī , means protector. (dogs barking) Where are these dogs? Devotee (2): That's outside, next door. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We find that in our society practically none of the brahmacārīs want to get married because they see that the women are not so chaste. Prabhupāda: That is the psychology. That is the psychology. They know that, "The girl whom I am going to marry, she will never be faithful." That is the impression. "So why shall I marry and take charge?" This is the psychology. I know in beginning, 1965, one carpenter boy he was coming to me; he gave me some benches, secondhand. So I asked him, "Why don't you get yourself married?" because I did not know. So he replied, "Swamījī, I know that I'll not get a faithful, chaste wife," he said. Then I could understand the psychology why the boys do not get married. No husband wants an unchaste, unfaithful wife. That is a shock to him. And here you have to allow the wife to go out with her friend. You cannot object. Devotee (2): Wife to go with? Prabhupāda: With her friend. *Rādhā*-vallabha: To go out with her friends; just do whatever she likes. Devotee (2): Oh, in the Western countries. Prabhupāda: I saw that John Lennon. He was maintaining her former husband or friend, the wife's . . . Devotee (2): In the same house. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yoko Ono. Prabhupāda: She already had a friend, and John Lennon wanted her. Devotee (2): So he took him also? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) And he was working as his garden manager. Now that boy has kidnapped the girl. Not the . . . the daughter, and he has went away, and now John has gone after him. Hari Śauri: They've split now, anyway. Prabhupāda: Ha? Hari Śauri: They've split up now, anyway. Devotee (2): He wrote one song, that John Lennon, it was very blasphemous. Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee (2): He wrote one song on a record album. It was called "God is a Symbol," and he mentioned George. He said: "I don't believe in this, I don't believe in that, I don't believe in *Gītā* . What has Kṛṣṇa got on you, George?" Like this. And he went on. At the end he says: "All I believe is in Yoko and me—that's reality." (laughter) Hari Śauri: He put all these things that he don't believe in, "I don't believe in heaven, and I don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, and I don't believe in this, and I don't believe in that. There's just Yoko and me." Prabhupāda: Who cares for you? Hari Śauri: That's what I thought when I read it. I thought, "Well, who cares for him anyway?" All these things are going on. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Another one of them said: "Hare Kṛṣṇa doesn't have anything on me." Prabhupāda: He said? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I think it was Paul that said that. Right? Devotee (2): No. It was John. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Rascal. *Devotee (2): Actually, they are very low*-class people. They came from Liverpool, low class. Hari Śauri: Everyone is low class. Prabhupāda: Everyone low class. What they have got? Simply they got some money and became respected. That's all. Everywhere money is everything. Only on account of, otherwise what qualifications they have got? George, suppose he has got some money, but he has got qualification, he has done something for Kṛṣṇa. He has taken. I asked him first of all $19,000 for paying the bill of Kṛṣṇa, and he paid. You know that? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Oh, yes. In America for a long time when we would distribute the books we would say: "George Harrison paid for this," and immediately they would take it. Prabhupāda: Hm. He actually did pay—$19,000. Hari Śauri: On the strength of that foreword that he put in the inside cover, that must have sold hundreds of thousands of books, just by showing them that. Prabhupāda: Yes. I asked him to write it. And I have acknowledged his money. Devotees: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We show that to people when we distribute the book. We say: "See, here the author is thanking George Harrison for the money. He has paid for it," and they go, "Aha," and they buy the book. Prabhupāda: He is a good boy. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva appeared, did He appear in India? Or was it Indra-loka? Prabhupāda: I told you . . . (indistinct) *Hari Śauri: It describes in the Bhāgavatam that Hiraṇyakaśipu, he was seated in the throne of Indra, in Indra's palace, so then we were wondering, well, did Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva appear on the planet earth or was it in Indra*-loka? Prabhupāda: It was not in this planet, so far I . . . but we are not concerned about the history; we are concerned about the pastime. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Lord Nṛsiṁha is very popular in the West. When people hear about Him . . . because in the West everyone is brought up with so many violent stories, so when they hear the story of Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, they become very attracted. Devotee (2): And everyone's father is a great demon also. Prabhupāda: So why not publish a chapter from *Bhāgavatam* ? I think Seventh Canto is full of Prahlāda's . . . Devotee (2): Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We actually did that. One time we published the Teachings of Prahlāda Mahārāja , a little pamphlet. That was very popular. Prabhupāda: So you are not printing now? *Rādhā*-vallabha: No. We have not printed it for many years. We can print it again if you like. Devotee (2): I think the Seventh Canto will be very popular. That can be reprinted. Hari Śauri: There are so many violent stories in the *Bhāgavatam* . Prabhupāda: Ha? Hari Śauri: There are so many descriptions of fighting in the *Bhāgavatam* , and they by far excel anything the mundaners can even conceive of. Like where Jarāsandha gets torn in half, or where his army was defeated and it describes how the bodies were floating like islands . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is killing so many demons from Vṛndāvana. Hari Śauri: Yes. They can't conceive of anything like that at all. It is amazing to them. Prabhupāda: Their idea is God cannot kill anyone. No? Hari Śauri: Hm. If He's God. Prabhupāda: Isn't that the idea? Hari Śauri: Yes. Devotee (2): They have that materialistic conception of goodness. *Rādhā*-vallabha: When we used to distribute the Back to Godhead magazine that had Balarāma killing Pralambāsura on the back cover, the black people would ask why the white person is killing the black one. So it was very difficult to sell that magazine to black people. Prabhupāda: You worship black Kṛṣṇa. Why did you not say? Black is not neglected. We worship, you see our Deity, black Kṛṣṇa. *Rādhā*-vallabha: You are actually the best book distributor. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: You are the best book distributor. You know all the good lines. (pause) *Rādhā*-vallabha: The sign on the front of the Press is ordered now. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: They have ordered the sign for the front of the Press with your name, and we are going to try our best to have it up by the time you get there. Generally it takes one month for them to carve the letters, but we will try to have it up when you get there. Rāmeśvara said he is very, very sorry that when you originally told him about the sign he had already purchased the other letters, and he did not want to displease you by spending more money, and he is very sorry. He has immediately ordered the letters for you. Prabhupāda: That was two years ago he said that it should be taken. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Actually, devotees at the Press, they are . . . it is wonderful how dedicated they are. Whenever a book is coming out, I give an iṣṭagoṣṭhī , and I tell them that Śrīla Prabhupāda is desiring very much to have this book out, and they will do anything. They will stay up all night . . . Prabhupāda: One girl wrote some articles. *Hari Śauri: Hm. In the Back to Godhead . . . it was a one*-page article from that girl who joined. Prabhupāda: She is working still? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. She was . . . I went to Princeton University Press to study some of their methods . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Your name is also. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Unfortunately. And she was there. She was the type composer. Prabhupāda: She is still with us? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Oh, yes. Now she is transcribing Jayadvaita's and Hayagriva's tapes, the editorial tapes. She will work all day and all night also, whenever is necessary. Prabhupāda: She is married or no? *Rādhā*-vallabha: No. Very few devotees get married now. It is very, very rare. Prabhupāda: If one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, this marriage problem does not disturb. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We're too busy to get married. (laughs) No time. Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī . . . man can remain without sex. It is not very difficult for him to. But women? Man can be trained up. He can remain throughout the whole life without sex. But it is a little difficult, unless they are given special protection. Special protection means strictly not to intermingle with any boy. Then they do. That is not possible in the Western . . . otherwise she can remain brahmacāriṇī under the protection of elder brother, or father and mother—not to allow—strict—mix freely to the boys. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In this country if they are left under the protection of their father and mother, then their father and mother will order them to have sex life. Prabhupāda: They make the girl prostitute to bring money. I have got experience. They do not like their young girls to marry. Better find out boys, and bring money. And once woman is trained up to prostitution, she will never become faithful wife. It is impossible. She is spoilt. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In America, if the woman is not like a prostitute, then she is ridiculed. All her friends ridicule her. Most of the degradation actually occurs in schools. When you go to school, the grade school, the elementary school and the high school and then college, this is where you learn all of this sex life, all of the intoxication. This is where you learn it. You learn it from the other children. Actually, that's the source of all the degradation. The meat-eating is taught by the parents, but everything else is school . . . Prabhupāda: Not only the parents. At the school they distribute contraceptive ingredients, tablets. In India it is also a problem. Devotee (2): In movie screens also, cinemas. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): Cinemas. They see all the things going on on the cinema screen. *Rādhā*-vallabha: And the filthy literatures also. Prabhupāda: Literature? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Filthy literatures, everywhere. Devotee (2): Magazines. Hari Śauri: Every newsagent sells pornographic literature. Every newsagent. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In a large city it is not possible to walk down a main street without seeing magazines with naked women—everywhere. That's all they have. *Hari Śauri: Even the advertisements for so*-called respectable goods now, they also feature naked women and so many things. It's just not possible, in the West, to avoid it. Prabhupāda: Not only that, on public streets they are embracing, kissing. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In India you don't even see that at all. It's very nice. Even now. In fact in places like Māyāpura and Vṛndāvana, you won't even see a husband and wife walking together. That's very unusual. Devotee (2): There's not so much emphasis on sex life there. Western society is all sex life. Prabhupāda: Unnatural life. Western society is unnatural. Devotee (2): They're even making surveys that they think that people would work harder if instead of having a lunch break they would have a sex break. So the husband and wife, during lunch hour, they could have sex life and go back to work again. Prabhupāda: Acchā ? Devotee (2): This is public news. I read it in the Time magazine. Hari Śauri: Even in the prisons, they allow the wives of the prisoners to come so that . . . and stay for the weekend at the jails. They were doing that program in England, because the men were complaining, they were becoming agitated, no sex life. They are prisoners, criminals, so they were allowing their wives to come. Prabhupāda: What if he has no wife? Devotee (2): They become homosex also. Prison is very bad. Big problems. *Rādhā*-vallabha: One devotee went to prison, and they had to give him a special place just so he would not be attacked by other men for sex life. This was three years ago. Prabhupāda: Homosex? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. He did not want it, so he did not want to be homosexual, so they had to put him in a place where there were no other men, because practically all of them were like that. They became so insane after sex life. He escaped from prison, though. He jumped over the wall, and for three days went through the mountains with no food, and he escaped, then he went to India. Prabhupāda: He escaped, how? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He jumped over the wall of the prison. Prabhupāda: Acchā . *Rādhā*-vallabha: Kṛṣṇa empowered him. I sent books to the prison chaplain, Kṛṣṇa Books , so the prison chaplain would give them to him, but they came back in the mail. It said: "Cannot deliver. The prisoner has escaped." Prabhupāda: He did some service? *Rādhā*-vallabha: The chaplain? Prabhupāda: No. He distributed some book? Hari Śauri: No, this boy. Devotee: Who was he? He was a devotee? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Vidura. His name was Vidura. I have not heard of him many years. Maybe he left. But he was a . . . Prabhupāda: Vidura, I think he is in Vṛndāvana. Devotee (2): Brahmacārī . *Rādhā*-vallabha: He is thin boy, blond hair? I have not seen him in years. Hari Śauri: He wasn't there when I was there. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari Śauri: He wasn't there when I was there. Prabhupāda: I heard the name. So he has gone to India? *Rādhā*-vallabha: When he first escaped from prison he went to India. This was around two or three years ago. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Then no one heard of him after that. He did not send any letters, to avoid being caught. Prabhupāda: He jumped over the wall? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. He jumped over the wall, then he went through the mountains of Pennsylvania to escape. He had his striped prison suit on. They give 58:53 them a striped suit in the prison. And all the neighboring towns, they tell the people if they see anyone like that, then they will give a big reward. So he was very frightened. He was walking through towns with his striped suit, and people were seeing him. Prabhupāda: Sanatāna Goswāmī did. Hari Śauri: Yes. Devotee (2): He also didn't want to go on the main road. He walked through the jungles. Prabhupāda: He could not jump over. He paid for that. (laughter) What money he had, he paid. But he did all this for Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: In those days it was unique. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Unique? Prabhupāda: How he arranged for getting free from prison. Hari Śauri: It wasn't a very common thing to bribe the jailer? Prabhupāda: Heh? Hari Śauri: It was not a very common thing to bribe the jailer? Prabhupāda: He had money, he bribed. But who has money? *Rādhā*-vallabha: It was from his brother? It was Rūpa Gosvāmī's money? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Rūpa Gosvāmī left one fourth for family expenditures. *Prabhupāda: Fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa, twenty*-five percent for family, and twenty-five percent for personal emergency. Hari Śauri: I remember when I joined the temple, I gave all my money to the temple, and then my parents found out, one friend told them. So they wrote a letter demanding to know why I hadn't sent them the money. *Rādhā*-vallabha: The one fourth. (laughter) Hari Śauri: No, not the one fourth. But they wanted to know why I had given all the money to the temple. They said, "You could have given it to your brother, or," he'd just got married, "or you could have given it to us, or . . ." Like this, very upset. Prabhupāda: When was? Hari Śauri: They are in England. Prabhupāda: Oh. In England, you gave to our temple? Hari Śauri: No. I joined in Sydney, so I gave to the temple in Sydney. Prabhupāda: That's all. (devotees offer obeisances) Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember I . . . we were speaking in India . . . did you want to use the Dictaphone in the afternoon or not? I don't know. (end) Conversation A -- May 18, 1976, Honolulu (Conversation About New Vrindavan) Govinda dāsī: . . . oh, as soon as . . . (indistinct) . . . come back. Prabhupāda: Why have you . . . (indistinct) . . .? (long pause) Govinda dāsī: May I put a little flowers around the, erm, you know, the little topknot? I don't know what it's called. The bunch of hairs on the Deities? Prabhupāda: Put flowers there? Govinda dāsī: Yes, put a little flowers there. (long pause) Devotee: (discussion between Govinda dāsī and devotee) What time is Gaurasundara coming? Govinda dāsī: He said tomorrow afternoon, maybe . . . (indistinct) Devotee: But are you going to call him? He could bring me that other typewriter. You need to remind him, or he'll forget. *Prabhupāda: Now already he has admitted. "Yeah, finally my presence in New Vrindavan is more needed now that we are being requested by Your Divine Grace to make an attempt for self*-sufficient." The hint is already given. Devotee: Yes. So he's doubtful. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: He's doubtful that they can do it. I think the next sentence? *Prabhupāda: "We trust in your higher wisdom that self*-sufficient can be realized somehow or other, and we will try for it." Yes, sometimes you can . . . (indistinct) Devotee: He doesn't sound like he is very hopeful. Prabhupāda: Hopeful, then how it can be? Devotee: Someone else should manage, who has enthusiasm. Prabhupāda: It's not possible if they . . . (indistinct) . . . they . . . if they think that they can do some business, let them do it. What can be done? If they cannot produce food, then let them do business. Devotee: Make soap? Make Hare Kṛṣṇa soap? Prabhupāda: Anything can be done. For doing business, there are so many things. Devotee: There is something that can be arranged on that farm. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: There must be some craft or various . . . Prabhupāda: But the whole New Vrindavan idea was that milk and production, something from that, that's all. And that is possible. But they don't work. Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . Devotee: That's the trouble. Prabhupāda: That's the trouble. So you can see it that is why. They think, "Now we have become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, why we shall work?" Devotee: And most of the men who live there, they only stay a short time, and they go away. Then someone else comes, and go away. So there is no one to maintain it. Prabhupāda: They come and eat and go. Devotee: Yes. Vacation. Vacation in the country. Govinda dāsī: We have one married couple here that came from New Vrindavan, but they're not living in the temple—they're living on the big island. But whenever the devotees went to the big island, they wouldn't even feed them, the devotees on the preaching mission. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Govinda dāsī: There was, there was one family of devotees that came from New Vrindavan. They were sort of semi*-hippy, semi-devotee. And . . . and so they got, and they moved to Hawaii—not to this island but to another island in the country. And we sent one party of devotees there for starting a temple, for doing preaching work. And they were just getting started, so they asked: "Can we stay at your house just temporarily?" And they said: "Oh, all right. You can stay there for a few days." But they wouldn't even feed them. They would go into the other room and eat; they would . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? Govinda dāsī: They wouldn't even feed the devotees. It was not very nice. And then the children were performing āratik , and they were saying, "Oh, how cute. How sweet," and everything. But when it came to practical . . . practically helping to start our temple there, there was no help at all. It was . . . it wasn't very helpful. Prabhupāda: (aside) Give me some . . . (indistinct) (end) Conversation -- May 19, 1976, Honolulu (audio very indistinct throughout) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . going to be new form, this human form, you get immediately. Your sacrifice means . . . (indistinct) . . . special place you get immediately. This is the process. So he is not loser. And you have the right to query. *Siddha*-svarūpa: (laughing) The fool who would choose . . . say that, consciously . . . (indistinct) . . . really is not very intelligent. *Prabhupāda: This is the process . . . (indistinct) . . . takes all this risk . . . (indistinct) . . . but the animal*-killing, he is making. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He is not loser. This man who is killing, then he is taking the risk of being killed by the . . . (indistinct) Paramahaṁsa: What if the Christian says that killing plants would also then be prohibited? Prabhupāda: That is not your business. If you are Christian, your business is first to obey the orders of Christ. That is not your business. Paramahaṁsa: You mean if, if . . . well, see, he'll, he'll . . . see, if I say that Jesus says "Don't kill," he doesn't say: "Don't kill humans," he says "Don't kill." And if you're killing the animals for food, then actually you're going against this law because you're killing. But then he'll say . . . Prabhupāda: Does he think that the killing of animals and killing of the plants, the same? He thinks like that? Paramahaṁsa: Uh, no. But he, he might . . . Prabhupāda: That he might, but that on the basis that he thinks like that . . . Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . that killing of a big cow and killing of the plant is the same. Does he think like that? Paramahaṁsa: Uh, he would think like that. Prabhupāda: So that is also another nonsense. Why in your state, when you kill a man, you are hanged, and when you are killing an animal you are not? Why? Why? You are Christian. If you say killing of animal and killing of man is the same, then why you are hanged? Huh? Why you discriminate? Why don't you kill your own child? Why discriminate? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. So they have to learn discrimination. Prabhupāda: Yes. Discrimination is the difference between a man and an animal. You can eat. Nature's law: that one life is food for another. And then you . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the nature's law. And you have to obey the order of the Supreme. That is your business. Now, so far we are concerned, we are not killing anyone, either vegetable or animal. We are offering Kṛṣṇa. So if Kṛṣṇa orders that "Give Me patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ ( BG 9.26)," and by His order I kill . . . this, this is not killing. If I take a fruit, if I take some flower, take some plant, this is not killing. You may accept it that it is killing; then it is Kṛṣṇa's order. I am not ordering. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Just like the commander says to kill; *therefore he kills . . . (indistinct) . . . for duty, and he will, and he . . . (indistinct) . . . to the . . . (indistinct) . . . "Come on, take this medal." But that does not mean that you kill at your whims, and want to get a medal. So he will get the medal by killing in the army, one medal: "Now, give this medal." "No medal. Now you will be hanged. Now you will be hanged, that you wanted by your own." So we have to carry out the order. Now you can kill anyone. That is battle. Even Arjuna. Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa . . . he did not want to kill, but Kṛṣṇa said: "Yes, you must kill." "I shall kill my grandfather?" "Yes!" "I shall kill Droṇācārya, my teacher?" "Yes! You must kill!" That was the whole argument, Bhagavad*-gītā . He understood that. He is Vaisnava . . . (indistinct) . . . he did not like. But Kṛṣṇa: "Must kill! Must kill!" So we have to carry out Kṛṣṇa's order. Even if you think that these vegetables are being killed, it is not killing. If I take the fruit from the . . . (indistinct) . . . but for argument's sake, if you say it is being killed, but that is not our responsibility; *it is Kṛṣṇa's responsibility. And so far Kṛṣṇa is concerned, in the Vedas , akarma . . . (indistinct) . . . He is never contaminated by any sinful reaction. Even superficially he is not. Literally killing his own countrymen . . . (indistinct) . . . does it mean that he is committing sin? To kill one's kinsmen, relative, father, like that, there is sin. And he is killing another, and another, father, son. So you have to abide by the order. That is your duty. Kṛṣṇa says that to kill a cow and to kill a human being is the same sin . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa could have killed so many cows—they are tending cows, daily in . . . (indistinct) . . . He said go*-rakṣya. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ (BG 18.44). And He actually protected . . . (indistinct) . . . so you have to follow Kṛṣṇa's order, stay in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We shall give protection to the cows, and we shall prepare foodstuff for Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . and we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam . In that consciousness . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness society. We do not do anything which is not ordered. Always do everything by His permission. This is our . . . Kṛṣṇa ordered that bring the cow's . . . (indistinct) . . . we are taking . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is your religion? Your religion, that "Thou shall not kill." As we follow Kṛṣṇa's order, you should follow Christ. Then you are Christian. Paramahaṁsa: There's . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: There's no possibility of people's understanding Jesus. Simply a matter . . . because there's no, there is . . . Prabhupāda: They have no knowledge. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . we have no difficulty. All rascals. Like these horses, wild; and intoxication and illicit sex . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot understand. Therefore the only process is that let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam . Then gradually they will be cured. Then . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all business, when they sing and dance, when he sings this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and diet, encourage them, and they will . . . (indistinct) . . . just like fire was spreading, . . . (indistinct) . . . they understand what is to be done. Paramahaṁsa: Did Yogi Bhajan write you back? Did he respond to your letter to them? Not yet? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Can I be excused? I've . . . I have a . . . I caught an influenza . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . so I have a slight fever. I will try to break it. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- May 20, 1976, Honolulu (audio quality very poor throughout) *Prabhupāda: . . . at any moment . . . (indistinct) . . . and what is the program to get out of it? . . . (indistinct) . . . why you are proud of your so*-called rascaldom? . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your insurance to save yourself from the . . . (indistinct) . . .? Woman devotee (1): My insurance? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only insurance is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati ( BG 9.31) . . . (indistinct) . . . that is your only insurance. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . simply by chanting . . . (indistinct) . . . insurance to save you. Devotee (2): "He quickly becomes righteous and attains lasting peace. O son of Kuntī, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes." Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Devotee (2): Purport. "This should not be misunderstood. In the Seventh Chapter the Lord says that one who is engaged in mischievous activities cannot become a devotee of the Lord. One who is not a devotee of the Lord has no good qualifications whatsoever. The question remains, then, How can a person engaged in abominable activities—either by accident or intention—be a pure devotee? This question may be justly raised. The miscreants, are stated in the Seventh Chapter, who never come to the devotional service of the Lord, have no good qualifications, as it is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Generally, a devotee who is engaged in the nine kinds of devotional activities is engaged in the process of cleansing all material contamination from the heart. He puts the Supreme Personality of Godhead within his heart, and all sinful contaminations are naturally washed away. Continuous thinking of the Supreme Lord makes him pure by nature. According to the Vedas , there is a certain regulation that if one falls down from his exalted position he has to undergo certain ritualistic processes to purify himself. But there is no such condition, because the purifying process is already there in the heart of the devotee, due to his remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly. Therefore, the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare should be continued without stoppage. This will protect a devotee from all accidental falldowns. He will thus remain perpetually free from all material contaminations." Prabhupāda: It is the only process to save yourself. Devotee (3): You . . . you told a story once about, there was one . . . the devotee of Lord Caitanya, where he had never met Lord Caitanya, but he had some water sprinkled on him from a Muslim, Muhammadan, and that . . . that astrologer told him to pour . . . to drink lead, hot lead. And he said . . . I was . . . Prabhupāda: Buddhimanta Khān. Devotee (3): Yeah, Buddhimanta Khān. (pause) Devotee (3): You've also said in the past that there is no reality of this material world save for . . . save Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , save . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, nāma vinā kichu nāhika āra, cauddha*-bhuvana-majhe . (pause) Devotee (3): Kṛṣṇa is our only insurance, and you are the . . . you are the insurance representative. *Prabhupāda: People are so intelligent that when the representative of Kṛṣṇa speaks, they become enemies, and sometimes they crucify, kill. So people are so kind that they are not killing. Otherwise, why Christ, . . . (indistinct) . . . was killed? What fault? What is his fault? Just see. Was there any fault in his words? He advised, "Don't kill," and he was crucified. We have to deal with such rascals. I may be representative, but he is directly son of God. People are so rascal that they did not believe even the son of God, what to speak of His representative. What is that? Why Jesus Christ was killed? What was his fault? People are so . . . (indistinct) . . . what the Christians will ask? Therefore we are . . . (indistinct) . . . and not only that, they have been given this idea that, "For our sinful reaction Christ has taken contract, so let him suffer being killed." Cow*-killing is very, very sin. "That's all right; don't mind. Christ will suffer." How easy understanding they have. Devotee (2): They . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): They call it love. Prabhupāda: This is love? If you say: "Prabhupāda, I love you. Now I want to kill you. Now I will kill you." Please don't love me! (laughter) Please get out. "I love you so much that I will kill you." Devotee (2): They like to keep the . . . Christ, the deity of Christ, they keep him nailed on the cross. They think that's very . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore you see all the pictures in the church, he is carrying the cross, and he is pushing, pushed by the government men. How miserable condition they show. Devotee (2): They don't have any . . . Prabhupāda: They do not have picture, just like we show Kṛṣṇa is enjoying. Such rotten things. That is going on in religion. They love . . . they love means they want to see their lovable suffering so much, you see. Only then . . . (indistinct) . . . this, we want to see our lovable object that He is enjoying. Young boy . . . (indistinct) . . . gopīs, and nice night, playing flute, He's enjoying. That we want to see. And they want to see that lovable, he is suffering. How they can see it, if there is love? *Siddha*-svarūpa: If they loved him they would not be able to stand to look at that. Prabhupāda: That is going on in the name of religion. Therefore so many rogues, rascals. Rascals. We say clearly . . . (indistinct) . . . simply rogues. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That is the symptom there. If they loved him, they would not be able to see that and glorify that. *Prabhupāda: That there was something . . . (indistinct) . . . one picture . . . (indistinct) . . . there was a competition that painter has to paint a picture that there is . . . (indistinct) . . . of the mother with child, so what would be the facial expression. So the painter has to express the feelings . . . (indistinct) . . . that one painter, he painted a picture of the mother, intimate picture . . . (indistinct) . . . he got it. So that is real idea. You may paint . . . (indistinct) . . . expression, that is artificial. The real thing, the mother cannot see it. That mother, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . it is correct. So how the mother can see it? There is . . . (indistinct) . . . being killed. So it is not very easy to . . . (indistinct) . . . cover the mouth, there is no question of him painting so many rascal expressions. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . all going on in the name of religion. All rascals. All rascal. Simply. They do not know what is God, they do not know . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the meaning of love. Simply rubber*-stamp, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." They are interested only in sense gratification. There cannot be any religion. So this cheating type of religion is rejected. Dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavaḥ (SB 1.1.2). All cheating type of religion is kicked out. This is no religion at all. All bogus. Is that religion, disobeying the instruction of Christ, "Thou shall not kill"? "Therefore I shall kill him." Is that religion? And they are showing how he was killed. *Siddha*-svarūpa: One . . . one man once said that to carry . . . to glorify the cross is like they . . . glorifying the revolver. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: If the husband is shot, then you take the gun and you worship the gun. Prabhupāda: That is . . . yes. Very good example. Are you, are you going to some church . . . (indistinct) . . .? Woman: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So, the same picture, that Jesus Christ is carrying his cross, and falling, falling. And you go enjoy. (long pause) *Prabhupāda: In Māyāpur you have seen Yoga*-pīṭha, Caitanya Mahāprabhu birthplace? Yoga-pīṭha? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . Devotee (2): Oh. Prabhupāda: . . . and two sides, his two wives. Not that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is worshiped as a sannyāsī . Devotee (2): Gṛhastha . Prabhupāda: Gṛhastha. Gṛhastha with two wives, he must enjoy. This is our process. Why you will see Him as a sannyāsī ? Therefore Nityānanda Prabhu broke his daṇḍa . They want . . . do not want to see Him as sannyāsī , . . . (indistinct) . . . renounce. Why He should be renounced? He is gṛhastha . "Oh, well." God must enjoy . . . (break) Devotee (5): I'm sorry it took so long, but I had a little trouble getting through to them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (5): First their . . . first the telephone service were not free, and then their line was busy for some time. So I just got through to them a few minutes ago, and he says it wasn't printed by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Prabhupāda: Then? Devotee (5): He said they did it independently, unauthorized from Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, and he already chastised them for using the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust label, 'cause it has nothing to do with the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Prabhupāda: Who is he? Devotee (5): Uhhh, I'm not sure. Who sent it? Bahulāśva? That devotee named Bahulāśva? Devotee (6): Bahulāśva and Bhakti dāsa. Devotee (5): And who else? Devotee (6): Jayānanda. But Jayānanda . . . I saw this printed in L.A. before I came here. Devotee (5): Oh. Devotee (6): So I don't think it's a San Francisco endeavor. Devotee (7): The separations were all . . . Devotee (5): No, he said it was done there. Devotee (6): Oh, in San Francisco? Devotee (5): Yeah, they printed it while the festival was going on in India, and he didn't know anything about it until he came back and saw that it was all printed. He said they were going to use it for some . . . something to do with lectures. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (5): They were going to use it to introduce lectures and so forth. Prabhupāda: So it was not published, so why did he publish unauthorized? Devotee (5): Oh, I don't know. He said that he was a little upset about it himself. Prabhupāda: So this should not take place again. They should be informed that without being passed by the authority, nobody should publish any literature. This is already . . . (indistinct) Devotee (5): Without, without being passed by the authorities . . .? Prabhupāda: Should not be published. Devotee (5): Does that mean the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust trustees? Prabhupāda: Yes. So those who are managing, but why they are . . . (indistinct) . . .? Where does he live? Devotee (3): I . . . we're still not sure who published it. Uh, Bahulāśva or Dharmādhyakṣa? Has anybody . . . did you mention that? Devotee (5): Rameśvara told me that they are the ones who did it, from the San Francisco center. Bahulāśva he mentioned, and a Dharmādhyakṣa. Devotee (3): Hmm. Hmm. He's in LA. Devotee (5): He mentioned those two. He didn't mention the others. He said they were . . . Prabhupāda: Bahulāśva published, published? Devotee (5): He said Bahulāśva and Dharmādhyakṣa. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (5): Dharmādhyakṣa. I don't know who he is. Devotee (3): It's the colleges. Devotee (5): Oh. They're, I think, in charge of the college program. Prabhupāda: The idea is good, but . . . (indistinct) . . . impersonal. Devotee (5): Hmm. Prabhupāda: Impersonal is not good. Devotee (5): So if someone was to receive this, they wouldn't necessarily connect it with you at all. They could think it was anything, 'cause there's no mention of your name. Prabhupāda: Who published it? Devotee (5): Uhh, I don't know who printed it. Prabhupāda: That you did not ask? Devotee (5): Rameśvara didn't know anything about who printed it or how many copies were printed or anything. He said all he knew was that it was put together by Bahulāśva and Dharmādhyakṣa. Prabhupāda: So ask them. Devotee (5): I have to contact them and find out how it was actually . . . should I write them a letter? Prabhupāda: He just sent one letter. You, you write. Devotee (5): This letter? (pause) Prabhupāda: So he, he is informed you are going? Devotee (5): Rameśvara? Oh, yeah. They're waiting. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) Devotee (5): Well, they sent the tickets today, but we have not made the reservation yet. We were waiting for them to . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . that place was selected . . . Devotee (5): Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . for . . . (indistinct) Devotee (7): Do you want to establish one center there? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee (7): Yeah, I would like to help. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (7): I would like to help. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Devotee (7): . . . (indistinct)? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Especially when there is . . . Devotee (7): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: This Ratha*-yātrā is in memory of Kṛṣṇa's coming there with His brother and sister during one eclipse, to take bath, coming from Dvārakā. Devotee (7): And the gopīs also assembled there? *Prabhupāda: The gopīs got the information that Kṛṣṇa is coming from Dvārakā, so from Vṛndāvana they went to see Him. And when Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī met, the Rādhārāṇī lamented that Kṛṣṇa—He was the same Kṛṣṇa and the same Rādhārāṇī—so "This is not a good meeting place. So if You come to Vṛndāvana, then I shall be happy." So it is inviting Kṛṣṇa to Vṛndāvana. That is the feeling of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Ratha*-yātrā. He is inviting Kṛṣṇa to Vṛndāvana. So in Jagannātha Purī still the same feelings are there. Kṛṣṇa, Jagannātha, from the temple goes to Guṇḍicā. So Lakṣmī is angry that, "Kṛṣṇa is leaving me. He has gone to Vṛndāvana." So she was . . . she is punishing. That is called Herā-pañcamī, punishing the servants of Kṛṣṇa. The maidservants of Lakṣmī chastising them, threatened them, "Why without permission?" (laughs) So they, out of very fearful condition, offering their respect to Lakṣmī, "Mother, you don't be sorry. I am here . . . (indistinct) . . ." So this, this is the play performed, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu associates they saw, and they enjoyed very much when the maidservant of Lakṣmī was slapping the servant of Viṣṇu. That is mentioned Caitanya-caritāmṛta . All the servants arrested, brought before Lakṣmī, and they are punished. (laughs) But they came to invite Kṛṣṇa, Rādhārāṇī and other gopīs. And actually they do not go at that time. But this Ratha-yātrā ceremony means Kṛṣṇa is coming from Dvārakā to Kurukṣetra. This is the history of Ratha-yātrā. Devotee (5): Do they have any temples of Lord Jagannātha there? They have any temples of Lord Jagannātha in Kurukṣetra? Prabhupāda: No. Jagannātha, that is another history. King Indradyumna, he wanted to establish a temple of that incidence, and that the deities while being carved would remain unfinished. So he was very impatient to establish, so he established the unfinished Deity. That is Jagannātha. Devotee (7): The nondevotees cannot understand . . . Prabhupāda: They are being carved, Kṛṣṇa's wood form, but he was so impatient, he said, "Whatever is done now, establish." It is said that Viśvakarmā was enquiring. So the term was, Viśvakarmā said that "Unless I finish, don't open the door." So this king, he went impatiently, and calling out whether he is finished. Then he forced . . . forcibly opened the door, and it was unfinished. So he said, "Never mind, . . . (indistinct) . . ." Unfinished Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . so Kṛṣṇa, finished or unfinished, is Kṛṣṇa. That is omnipotency. That is Jagannātha form . . . (indistinct) . . . doesn't matter finished or unfinished. (end) Conversation -- May 21, 1976, Honolulu (Conversation About Deity Making and Tulasi Tea) Hari-śauri: Twelve inches. That's very small, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's only . . . Govinda dāsī: It's about eighteen inches. Oh, you said twelve inches. Twelve . . . twelve is like this. Hari-śauri: This is a ten by eight. Prabhupāda: Fifteen. Fifteen. Govinda dāsī: Fifteen. Fifteen inches. Prabhupāda: But they are . . . they are done nice. Very artistic flavor. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So, only make a big hall there. On all sides a brass plate . . . (indistinct) . . . you make of this, like this. You make such small dolls, they can be soldered. They are very good . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But, that is good price. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But silicate preparation is, you think, stronger than stone? Govinda dāsī: Yes, I think so. I have . . . I'm making some I was gonna bring and show you this evening, some heads. Prabhupāda: They are done already? Govinda dāsī: Some heads. I was gonna show you . . . Prabhupāda: They are already done? Govinda dāsī: Yes, but they're not fully dry. Two of them are done, but . . . Prabhupāda: So when they dry. Govinda dāsī: It's not fully dried. It will be dry enough to bring by this evening, I think. It's concrete. It's concrete. You had . . . originally you asked me to make them in concrete. The concrete mixed with silica is stronger than just concrete. The concrete, it was, from what I have been told, it was . . . Prabhupāda: Inside, whether has to put network? Govinda dāsī: Armature? Prabhupāda: Ah! Govinda dāsī: Armature. Yes, that may be. That's a metal you have to put inside. Metal. Prabhupāda: That will . . . Govinda dāsī: For strength. Prabhupāda: . . . make strong? Govinda dāsī: Strength, yes. Prabhupāda: Reinforcement. Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very strong. Govinda dāsī: Especially for Kāliya it's going to be necessary. For Kāliya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Because it's a very large piece. (pause) Govinda dāsī: I require some people to help me to do this, but everyone is . . . it's very difficult to get . . . I require two or three girls to help me. Prabhupāda: So ask Śukadeva Goswāmī. Hari-śauri: You want him to come up? Prabhupāda: No. You can ask him. Hari-śauri: Oh. Govinda dāsī: I was just discussing it with him when you called me, and he had just told me that no. (laughs) Prabhupāda: She needs help. Hari-śauri: This is the problem. And I know when Gurukṛpā Mahārāja gets back, he will stop it as well. Govinda dāsī: He'll stop everything, and there's nothing I can do, except do it independently, on my own. Prabhupāda: Why? *Hari-śauri: From, well, from his attitude when he left, he didn't want . . . want anything to do with it at all, any Deity*-making. Prabhupāda: Why? Hari-śauri: I don't know. Prabhupāda: No, that's . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Yeah. I don't know. May be that, that if you write a letter to him, and, and ask him to give some facility. Otherwise, I don't think he'll do it, 'cause he wouldn't be . . . he's objected to it before . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: First of all, let them have this hall. Hari-śauri: Hmm. And then do the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . him, now there is no place for Kṛṣṇa. First of all there must be place. Then we can do everything. *Hari-śauri: Hmm. What about their Deity*-making that they're doing now, for Fiji? They're doing these deities for Fiji. Prabhupāda: You have contacted Baradrāj? Govinda dāsī: I'm going there tomorrow. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . I am going also. Govinda dāsī: Baradrāj, I've talked to him. He, he's very busy doing what he's doing. He's building a museum, and he says he doesn't have time to do . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: . . . the deities too. So therefore that's why I, I was doing them here. I was getting it all organized here. I was simply going to ask him to help me with the Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta and the deity of yourself. Prabhupāda: So you have talked to him? Govinda dāsī: Yes. He told me that he wouldn't have time to even start anything for months, to even begin to help with the Deities for months, 'cause he's doing this museum. Prabhupāda: So you heard from Baradrāj? Govinda dāsī: Yes. So what we were doing is, there's three girls here who we're setting up and working. It's not that difficult, you know. It's not that hard to do. What . . . we were just . . . I was going to talk to Baradrāj about it when I went there, also. (pause) Prabhupāda: So you talked with Gaurasundara yet? Hari-śauri: No. Govinda dāsī: Since he left I haven't seen him or talked to him. He left last week for his farm on the big island. He and his new wife, they left, and I don't know what he's thinking. Prabhupāda: What does he do in his farm? Govinda dāsī: He has a lot of animals. He raises goats and horses. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: And I think they have one cow. They got recently one cow. Hari-śauri: What do they do with goats? Govinda dāsī: They're the girl's pets. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: The goats are the pets. They're like pets. Prabhupāda: Goats for milk? Govinda dāsī: Umm, yeah, you can get milk, but I don't think they do that very much, because they don't like to take it away from the baby goat. Mostly just for pets. They have horses and goats. Prabhupāda: Are they killed? Govinda dāsī: Oh, no. No, they're very much . . . not at all. Hari-śauri: How many of them do they have? Govinda dāsī: At least a dozen. Hari-śauri: Dozen goats? Govinda dāsī: Yeah, a whole bunch of goats. They have at least six horses, too. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: She said they have about a dozen goats and about six horses. Govinda dāsī: I mean, it may be more than that. I'm not . . . I don't really know now. Prabhupāda: So why so many horses? Govinda dāsī: Because they like to ride horses for pleasure. It's a very nice pleasure to ride horses. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: The girl was a rodeo star. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: The girl was a rodeo star. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: That's where you ride horses, you know? In . . . in rodeos. *Prabhupāda: Uh*-huh. Govinda dāsī: You know? Until she had an accident last year. Now she's crippled, and she can't ride. Her leg is . . . she can't ride now any more, but she used to be a . . . Prabhupāda: And she introduced these horses? Govinda dāsī: Yes. He has several people there, like, who follow him and do for him. They will help with the farm work. They have . . . they have gardens. They have nice gardens. Prabhupāda: No Deities? Govinda dāsī: Not to my knowledge. They've started chanting recently. Recently they've started chanting. Just since he came back from India, he started chanting. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: I don't know what his position is. I feel he's changing. I don't know. I think that he feels that you've sanctioned what he's doing, and so he'll probably go on doing it. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: He feels that you have sanctioned his activities, and so he will go on doing what he's doing. Prabhupāda: I have sanctioned? Govinda dāsī: You've sanctioned that he has a farm and he's raising vegetables and living there, and that he's got a new wife and everything. And so he will go on doing what he's doing, because he feels that it's sanctioned. Everyone feels that it's not sanctioned. So probably he'll try to get more . . . he tries to get more people to join and come and live there. That was what he was doing in Honolulu. Prabhupāda: He's sanctioned? He is doing everything without my sanction. (laughs) Who asked him to ride on horse? Govinda dāsī: Who asked him to what? Prabhupāda: Ride on horse. He can say like that. Govinda dāsī: You indicated, or you seemed to approve of what he was doing. Even I thought that you'd sanctioned him to do all these things. I mean, you didn't, you know . . . Prabhupāda: No. Govinda dāsī: You encouraged him. Prabhupāda: I encouraged him? Govinda dāsī: Yes, you encouraged him to chant and to, erm . . . Prabhupāda: That I am encouraging everyone. Govinda dāsī: Yes. Well, anyway, they feel that you've sanctioned their activities now, and that they can proceed and have more people come and live there. (long pause) Govinda dāsī: You asked him to come and travel with you? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: You asked Gaurasundara to come and travel with you? Prabhupāda: That I do. (pause) Prabhupāda: So time is up when? Hari-śauri: No, another hour yet. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: It's only 10:15. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hari-śauri: You're not sleeping in the mornings now? Prabhupāda: I do not bother. Hari-śauri: Just rest a little. Govinda dāsī: How's your health? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: How's your health? Prabhupāda: Health? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not well. Govinda dāsī: Do you want to see some doctor? Prabhupāda: Hmm? (pause) Prabhupāda: Now it is working; (laughing) we must be prepared. Hari-śauri: I think you're already prepared, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: A broken house, you cannot expect. (pause) Prabhupāda: What Śukadeva's gone . . . (indistinct)? Hari-śauri: No. It's a public holiday today. Prabhupāda: All right. (devotees offer obeisances) Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can I ask one question? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: On the tulasī plants. Sometimes they are taking and putting in . . . they boil some water and put the tulasī and make some tea and drink it. Is that . . . I've been told both that it's wrong, and I've been told that it's okay, and I'm wondering whether or not it's . . .? Prabhupāda: Not wrong. Govinda dāsī: Is it wrong to heat the tulasī , to put, put her in hot water, or is, is that okay? Prabhupāda: No, it is not wrong, but they are constantly doing that? Hari-śauri: Oh, I don't know whether they're constantly doing it. Govinda dāsī: There's so much tulasī that they sell it, tulasī tea, at the restaurant, which is . . . Hari-śauri: Yeah . . . Govinda dāsī: . . . people like it . . . Hari-śauri: . . . but Prabhupada . . . Govinda dāsī: . . . it's very tasty. Hari-śauri: Prabhupada said that's all right. Govinda dāsī: Yeah, that's very tasty. There's just, there's tons of tulasī , and there's, there's . . . Prabhupāda: No. That they cannot drink themselves. For customers, that's all right. Govinda dāsī: All right. It's not good for devotees to drink it? *Hari-śauri: No. Because it encourages tea*-drinking habit. Becomes a habit to drink tea. Govinda dāsī: Ohh, I see. Hari-śauri: So the devotees shouldn't . . . shouldn't drink anything like that, unless it's medicinal. Unless they're sick, they have a fever, and tulasī . . . Prabhupāda: Tulasī drink, drink is very palatable. Govinda dāsī: It's very palatable. I used to put tulasī in your water, remember? We used to put . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: . . . tulasī flowers in your water, and it flavors the water. Well, when boiled water is poured on it, it's supposedly very medicinal too. And they drink the tea with a little bit maybe of honey or drink it plain. And it's very palatable. Customers like it. I've . . . I used to drink it, but I heard that it was an offense to, to drink it, so I didn't know. I just thought it was really good. Prabhupāda: No. That as soon as we like it, that means sense gratification. Hari-śauri: Once you drink it for the taste . . . Govinda dāsī: But we like prasādam . (laughing) I didn't know, so I . . . I didn't know if it was wrong. Prabhupāda: No. Govinda dāsī: I thought to heat the tulasīs , what I'd heard . . . Prabhupāda: Tulasī, tulasī leaf you can take, but . . . Govinda dāsī: Heat. Eat, but not the . . . *Prabhupāda: . . . but this tea habit, that means we may revive our tea*-drinking. That is. Govinda dāsī: Oh, I see. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, tulasī leaf eating is good. You can eat leaf, especially palatable with water. Water, that is good. But you make it, imitation tea, that means I remember tea*-drinking. Govinda dāsī: I see. Especially the English. That will be very difficult for the Englishmen. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So you come at half past twelve. Hari-śauri: Hmm. (end) Conversation -- May 24, 1976, Honolulu Devotee: She has come to an impasse in her family life. She doesn't know what to do. So the situation, I think you are familiar with, that Gaurasundara has been living with this other girl for three years, and Govinda dāsī is under the impression that you've sanctioned that Gaurasundara can have two wives. Prabhupāda: He . . . she can imagine anything. What can I do? Govinda dāsī: Well, he told me that you sanctioned it. Devotee: I said that . . . Govinda dāsī: Gaurasundara will come back. Devotee: . . . that you were sympathetic that these young girls had no husbands, but . . . Prabhupāda: We have nothing to do with it. Govinda dāsī: The girl is agreeable to going, to . . . she doesn't care, and I just want Gaurasundara to come back. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . to this family. Gaurasundara is out of, also. These things will change our . . . (indistinct) . . . it is my suggestion that so many girls are without husband, if a husband can maintain three dozen wives I have no objection. Govinda dāsī: He doesn't maintain me. Prabhupāda: Huh? Then what can I do? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is your affair. But I say if a person is able to maintain three dozen wives, then I have no objection. Now, if he does not maintain you, then what can I do? That is your situation. Devotee: I think I have told her the same thing. *Prabhupāda: Neither it is my business to deal with family life. No more. That is my general opinion. But if they can maintain more than one wife . . . it is simply a question of maintaining. But if one is not maintaining, what can I do? Now we shall not deal with family affairs anymore. We give chance to the gṛhastha to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but we cannot tax our brain over that. That is not . . . generally gṛhastha should live apart from temple. Gṛhastha should not live in the temple. If there is . . . (indistinct) . . . becoming a problem. Every gṛhastha must take care of wife, children, maintenance. But how you can do that, temple*-living? Temple is meant for the renounced, for the brahmacārīs , who have no, I mean to say, embarrassment, that "I have to take care of my wife, I have to take care of children, I have to do this, I have to do that." As soon as one becomes gṛhastha , he has got his own . . . (indistinct) . . . so everyone has got his passion how to maintain their . . . (indistinct) . . . now how the temple can do it, handle this? Better avoid. This is a . . . (indistinct) . . . small temple . . . (indistinct) . . . gṛhastha . Temple is meant for person who is exclusively interested for Kṛṣṇa culture. We are advising to stop sex, and gṛhastha life is sex life. So how we can (laughs) tax our brain? The gṛhastha life is sex life, straightforward sex life. So we are advising "No sex." Devotee: A constant worry in your . . . (indistinct) . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: That must be worry in your . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Don't worry. So about this sex āśrama , it is not possible to tax our brain. But according to the Vedic system, if a man marries more than one wife, there is no . . . how it is possible in this condition? We are in Western country . . . (indistinct) . . . but we are not Krsna, we can't maintain more than one wife. Devotee: They cannot live in the temple separately in such a circum . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: If they want to do so, they can't live in the temple separately? Prabhupāda: No, no. In the temple even living with one wife it is not possible. We have to restrict them. No wives live in the temple in India. Family . . . (indistinct) . . . in certain circumstance, in the temple they live separately, but not in the temple building. That is strictly prohibited. It is becoming a great problem, because there are girls, there are boys, so the temple is becoming a lovemaking center. Even one grhastha . . . (indistinct) . . . he has got his wife, he is implicated with another woman. Even if one is gṛhastha . The girl is after another husband. This is the practice now in the Western countries. Even they are allowed to live as gṛhastha , then it will still create havoc. It will be very problematic. I thought, "Let them be married." So their business is different—sense enjoyment. Sometimes here, sometimes there, sometimes where? Sometimes take sannyāsa , then again implicated with another woman. These things are going on. It is . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot take care of the children, and not sending to school. Hmm? Every woman is taking care of her child. Why not woman taking care of ten children? Then the mothers will be free to do some help to the organization. Early in the morning they are coming. Everyone is anxious to take care of their children. Even they marry, there is problem, children and, what is it called, adultery. Eh? Devotee: Mixing with another man's wife. Prabhupāda: Yes. And if they do not marry, the man is hunting after woman, and woman is hunting after man. So both ways there is trouble. If they marry, really, then there are children. Then the problem is you have to take care of the children. Devotee: And they don't even take care of the children. Prabhupāda: This is great problem. The temple is meant for advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore those who are carefree of family life can live any way; there is no question of much anxiety for living and eating—that is secondary. Then they can live in temple. One who wants to live comfortably, requiring sex, children—that is a big problem for the temple. Devotee: Apparently. Prabhupāda: These things disturb Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he wanted to make some stricture. But they become very much upset. I don't want to upset; let them live. But they must always remember the temple is meant for only advancing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We should not bring other problems. This household life is material problems, sex problems. So how the temple can take responsibility for these problems? Then Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be slack. So? That's all right? So don't . . . *Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I wanted to show you these pictures also. Siddha*-svarūpa gave them to me. They are from . . . they are deities that they made in the Philippines, very inexpensively, by their sculptors there, and they are made out of wood. And they are copies. I just thought you would be interested. Devotee: How big are those deities? You know? How big are those deities? *Govinda dāsī: They are twenty*-seven inches high, and they only cost fifteen dollars each to make, and they are made out of carved wood. The anatomy is not very nice—I mean it could be better—but that is because I think they did not have anything to copy. But the Phili . . . they were very, very cheap for wood. Very cheap for that much craftsmanship. They are poor there. But Sudāmā Vipra Mahārāja . . . Prabhupāda: He sent? The picture is sent by him? *Govinda dāsī: No. Siddha*-svarūpa just gave it to me as I was coming in. He showed it to me. And apparently it was sent to Siddha-svarūpa by Sudāmā, and I don't . . . Prabhupada: . . . (indistinct) (break) Devotee: This is concerning that BBT business in Vṛndāvana . . . in India. Gopal . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- May 30, 1976, Honolulu Devotee: . . . also. Prabhupāda: So, little distant, no? Devotee: It's a little distant is the only problem. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And there are several other advantages. Devotee: But I suggested that Jayatīrtha would be responsible as GBC. Prabhupāda: He was responsible. Devotee: Well, I agree. Well, I can come . . . I have never been GBC for Hawaii. Prabhupāda: No? *Devotee: I've never been GBC here. Bali*-mardana was GBC, and then after that time it was never resolved who would be GBC. But Sudāmā was here, and you told him to go direct to . . . (indistinct) . . . so I never suggested that I become the GBC, because it was . . . (indistinct) . . . more and more territory. Otherwise I would have been more concerned. (break) Prabhupāda: Anyway, do something. Nothing happening, that is not very good. Devotee (2): Now they have a responsible president . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): There is a responsible president here, who will not be so whimsical . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Hawaii was never part of the western zone; *it was always separate. Gaurasundara was here, it was separate. And then Bali*-mardana was here Rāmeśvara: No, Gaurasundara was the GBC secretary. Devotee (2): No, before his time. (indistinct conversation between devotees) (break) Prabhupāda: Don't sell the bigger one. Rāmeśvara: The question is, if it is to be distributed in India, should we insert the Sanskrit, because in India, if it does not have Sanskrit, it may not be taken as authority. Prabhupāda: No. No. That is not. Rāmeśvara: That is not necessary? Prabhupāda: No. Sanskrit is meant for the scholarly person, not for general public. And especially in the Western countries, if they see Sanskrit and the transliteration, they take it very seriously. (break) Rāmeśvara: Just as it was, without any Sanskrit or any transliteration—just the verse and the purport? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And some pictures. Rāmeśvara: And we will include pictures, in color. *Prabhupāda: I think there is no purport . . . or verse. You have no copy of Gaura*-līlā ? Rāmeśvara: Copy of the original? Abridged addition? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Yes, we have copy. Prabhupāda: So there is no verse? Devotee (2): There is verse in English. Rāmeśvara: In English. There is translation and then purport, some purport. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but no verse. There's no verse in there. The verses are not there. There is straight translation and purport. Rāmeśvara: Oh, I see, yes. Straight translation and purport. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you want me to have traveling saṅkīrtana party in India now? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) The family members are compared with the foxes and jackals. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are all a liability? Prabhupāda: No. In the forest, when you are attacked by foxes and jackals, they take away your flesh and bones. My children are like that. And the senses are compared with the—what is called—dacoits, plunderers. Actually that is a fact. The senses . . . suppose a man is born in a rich family. To take birth in rich family is due to past pious activities. So pious activities means performing sacrifices, rituals—these are pious activities. So as a result of pious activities . . . it is sounding too much. Why? How before it was not sounding? Devotee (2): We'll keep the curtain open. (break) Prabhupāda: In this bank. Devotee (2): No, no, no. That is in the German bank. Seven hundred thousand. Prabhupāda: Seven hundred thousand. Marks? Devotee: Right. Two hundred and eighty thousand dollars. Approximately. Prabhupāda: So we cannot withdraw that? Devotee (2): No. It is in a fixed deposit in a bank account, but we can't withdraw it, but there's things to show that we can be able to get it. Prabhupāda: Oh. We cannot spend it? Devotee (2): Not yet. But at least the police are not holding it any more. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Back in our . . . (indistinct) . . . in India . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So at least the money is safe now. Devotee (2): Sounds that way. But if it is in a fixed deposit, then we can also use it actually. Prabhupāda: No. Fixed deposit for month, one month, so that we are not losing the interest. Fixed deposit means there is interest. Devotee (2): Right. Rāmeśvara: Also credit from the printer. He will see that we have the money in the bank. He will give us credit again, so we can print books in Germany. Devotee (3): How's Gaurasundara? (break) Prabhupāda: If he surrenders, then there is no question of arrest. Devotee: Yes, that is what they are arranging. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee (3): He said there won't be any problems. They can arrange it. They are going to talk to the prosecuting attorneys and set up a trial date and then leave it up to him. As long as he agrees to come back for the trial date. One of the questions that he had was that he wanted to know exactly what he and Brahmānanda should do. Should they . . . he knows that you want joint management in Europe, and he wants to know whether . . . he is going to call back on Monday. He wants to find out by that time whether he and Brahmānanda should take full charge of London, Paris and Germany, or what should be done. Prabhupāda: What is Haṁsadūta's desire? Haṁsadūta: Well, I thought I would go back and go to Germany and see the situation with Brahmānanda. Prabhupāda: Yes. He has to go. So, when he has to go? Devotee (3): He said it wasn't fixed yet. But he was meant to let Haṁsadūta know as soon as it was fixed up. Prabhupāda: Until we think of the proper situation, there should be a man there. Then let Haṁsadūta go and see the situation in Germany . . . then we decide. Devotee (3): He said that Brahmānanda's willing to stay there and manage if you want him to. He said in that report that he was ready to come to Los Angeles immediately if you wanted him to stay there. Prabhupāda: That I know what I have said. First of all, let Haṁsadūta go there. Devotee (3): And then I can discuss. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, do you want me to . . . I get the impression from Paramahaṁsa that you wanted me to travel with you for some time. Prabhupāda: Yes. That I want for everyone. (pause) Prabhupāda: The tendency for becoming guru is there. But after all, every one of you should become guru . But why immature attempt? That is my question. Everyone will become guru when he is expert disciple, but why this immature attempt? Guru is not a thing, imitation. When one is mature, he becomes guru automatically. What is the answer to this, their making some attempt to become guru ? I am training you all to become guru in the future. Now the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the properties and everything, I will not take with me. They will remain where they are. It requires very mature treatment. But there has been some attempt to become guru immediately. Am I correct or not? Hm? We are also acting as guru . My other Godbrothers, they are also doing that. But we never attempted during the lifetime of our Guru Mahārāja. That is not the etiquette. It is an immature attempt. And it is not the thing that by artificial attempt one becomes guru . Guru is accepted by etiquette, not by artificial attempt. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā ( CC Madhya 7.128): "Follow My order and become guru ." Not that you become guru . Hmm? You have to follow the paramparā system, order. That is guru . Not that I declare myself as guru . No. That is not guru . Guru is he who has strictly followed the order of the spiritual master. He can become guru . Otherwise it will be spoilt. Artificial attempt is not good. (pause) *Prabhupāda: Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 8)—we are singing daily, hundred times. Guru means kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 7). Do you understand all these lines? You sing daily, thrice. Do you understand the meaning of these words? Can anyone explain? Devotee (3): Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya —"The spiritual master is very dear to Kṛṣṇa." *Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all one has to become very dear to Kṛṣṇa, then automatically he becomes guru . And when one becomes very dear to Kṛṣṇa, then he becomes guru , and by the mercy of such guru Kṛṣṇa becomes merciful. These are the statements of the śāstra. Ār nā koriho āśā . What is that, guru*-mukha-padma-vākya ? Devotee (3): *Prabhupāda: Ār nā koriho mane āśā. Simply whatever you hear from the guru , try to execute it. Ār nā koriho mane āśā. Do not expect anything more. So whatever we are chanting, we are reading, we must realize that. The Gauḍīya Maṭha institution became a failure on account of disobedience and not following the orders. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura's statement about the verse vyavasāyātmikā buddhir —find out this verse from the Bhagavad*-gītā . The Caitanya-caritāmṛta statement, āmāra : one can become guru by the superior order. Devotee (3): Shall I read it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): *"Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolved is many*-branched." Prabhupāda: And the purport? *Devotee (3): "A strong faith in Kṛṣṇa consciousness that one should be elevated to the highest perfection of life is called vyavasāyātmikā intelligence. The Caitanya*-caritāmṛta states: "Faith means unflinching trust in something sublime. When one is engaged in the duties of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he need not act in relationship to the material world, with obligations to family traditions, humanity or nationality. Fruitive activities are the engagements of one's reaction from past good or bad deeds. When one is awake in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he need no longer endeavor for good results in his activities. When one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all activities are on the absolute plane, for they are no longer subject to dualities like "good" and "bad." The highest perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is renunciation of the material conception of life. This state is automatically achieved by progressive Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The resolute purpose of a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is based on the knowledge ( vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ ) (BG 7.19) by which one comes to know perfectly that Vāsudeva, or Kṛṣṇa, is the root of all manifested causes. As water on the root of a tree is automatically distributed to the leaves and branches, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one can render the highest service to everyone—namely self, family, society, country, humanity, etc. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied by one's actions, then everyone will be satisfied." "Service in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is, however, best practiced under the able guidance of a spiritual master who is a bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa, who knows the nature of the student and who can guide him to act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As such, to be well versed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one has to act firmly and obey the representative of Kṛṣṇa, and one should accept the instructions of the bona fide spiritual master as one's mission in life. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura instructs us, in his famous prayers for the spiritual master, as follows: "By satisfaction of the spiritual master, the Supreme Personality of Godhead becomes satisfied. And by not satisfying the spiritual master, there is no chance of being promoted to the plane of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I should, therefore, meditate and pray for his mercy three times a day, and offer my respectful obeisances unto him, my spiritual master." "The whole process, however, depends on perfect knowledge of the soul beyond the conception of the body—not theoretically, but practically, when there is no longer chance for sense gratification manifested in fruitive activities. When one is not firmly fixed in mind . . . one who is not firmly fixed in mind is diverted by various types of fruitive activities." Prabhupāda: These artificial attempts to become guru is not the platform of guru . Do you all realize this now? Hm? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like this Bal Yogi Guru Mahārāja. That kind of Guru Mahārāja anyone can become; it is not very difficult. But really guru is not like that. That is evaṁ paramparā viduḥ. Evaṁ paramparā . . . eh? Devotees: Prabhupāda: Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Through the paramparā . Hmm? Imaṁ vivasvate yoga proktavān aham (BG 4.1). So the training period to attempt to become guru , that is not very good etiquette. That is artificial. At least officially during the lifetime of guru , nobody should attempt like that. The disciple should always remain as perfectly subordinate and be disciplined. Disciple means one who is being disciplined. That is disciple. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He is God, Kṛṣṇa; still He said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71): "My guru , seeing Me a fool number one, he has chastised Me." Now who can chastise Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu? But that is the way of disciplic succession. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, guru more mūrkha dekhi . Who can be guru of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and who is actually His guru who will say Caitanya Mahāprabhu is a fool? But He said that guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana : "My Guru Mahārāja found Me a fool number one, and therefore he has chastised Me." This is the position of disciple. So one who is always prepared to be chastised by guru , he is eligible to become guru . So these attempts are being done, just like Gaurasundara told that, "Why should I live under the subjugation of these people? Let me go away, to become a guru ." Similarly Sudāmā. This attempt will not be successful, but there is some attempt like that. What can be done? Such attempt will never be successful, but there are some attempts like that. (break) What is your answer? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that everybody should resolve not to do it in any form at all. I have heard similar . . . I have heard this type of complaint from other places also, where some other devotees have tried to call themselves some type of a guru . Whenever I heard that, I have been very disturbed. Devotee (2): Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is desiring to be lower than the straw in the street. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): Caitanya Mahāprabhu is desiring to be lower than the straw in the street. So for him to desire to be guru , that is not in line with Caitanya Mahāprabhu. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I am just trying to clarify—I don't want to offend anyone—but no disciple of yours should call himself dīkṣā*-guru or śikṣā-guru . Am I right? *Prabhupāda: Well, everyone is engaged to become śikṣā*-guru , but one should become perfect. The attempt is—what is called?—probationer. When probationer period is finished, then he is naturally, automatically, bona fide guru . Not in the probationer period. That is immature attempt. That will failure. Āmāra ājñāya (CC Madhya 7.128), Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "By My order." So all my disciples are expected to become śikṣā-guru on my order, not by his own order. That is meaning that I am giving sannyāsa , I am sending you to different places, so this means that you have to carry out the order of the guru very strictly; then you become mature. Otherwise it will be artificial attempt, and that kind of guru will not help. Just like there are so many guru s and avatāras and yogīs are coming. For time being there is some culture, and what is the effect? Just like this . . . what is that? Devotee: Guru Mahārāja? Prabhupāda: No, no. Guru Mahārāja is later than that. Before that? Devotees: Maharishi Yogi! Prabhupāda: So what is the effect? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No one talks of him now. Rāmeśvara: No. He is making big business. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rāmeśvara: He has made his guru into guru business, big business. His men go to the college wearing tie and suit, and they initiate the students for one hundred dollars. He is making millions of dollars by cheating, and making it into a big business. He gets one hundred dollars, and he gives them a special mantra , which is just one line of . . . *Prabhupāda: That he was giving beginning by thirty*-five dollars. Now he has made it one hundred? Devotees: Inflation! (laughter) Devotee: The cost of being a guru has gone up. (laughter) Rāmeśvara: We have one devotee named Bahulāśva, and his friend is working for this guru , this Maharishi Yogi. So he just got one letter saying that this cheating yogī , he went to Europe, and he has made millions of dollars by initiating students in the colleges there. *Devotee (3): Thirty*-five thousand people. *Rāmeśvara: He said the letter—we do not know if it is true—the letter reported that thirty*-five thousand people paid one hundred dollars to get some . . . to be cheated. Prabhupāda: So who wrote you that letter? Rāmeśvara: One friend of our devotee Bahulāśva. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The world of the cheaters and the cheated. Rāmeśvara: He is very famous, because he presents his method as very scientific. *Devotee (3): You get a million*-dollar grant from the government . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee (3): Their group got a one*-million-dollar grant from the US government, so they presented research showing how Transcendental Meditation helps one to relax. So there is a big problem in America, because everyone is very much in anxiety, and the government recognizes that, so anything that will help them relax, they think is very good. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It helps them get off drugs also. That's what the research showed. Devotee (3): Yeah, one million dollars. He is very active on the college campuses; he is making great headway there. Rāmeśvara: He is making millions of dollars just from the colleges. Devotee: Every college has got very big displays. Rāmeśvara: Posters. Posters of his Transcendental Meditation process. Devotee (3): Very professional. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in India they did some research on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Transcendental Meditation, and they found out . . . Prabhupāda: What is that Transcendental Meditation? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't know. Devotee (3): It is just a mantra . Rāmeśvara: Bahulāśva's friend told him that they are giving one line of the klīṁ gāyatrī mantra . He teaches them to chant the word klīṁ over and over again. Prabhupāda: The chanting is there. Rāmeśvara: For one hundred dollars they give you that word. Devotee (3): Do they chant silently? Rāmeśvara: They chant silently. Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that? Devotee (3): They chant for thirty times in a day for a few minutes. They chant silently this mantra . Prabhupāda: The chanting is there. So where is the difference between ours and theirs? Devotee: Theirs is not given by a bona fide guru . Devotee (4): They are also advocating meditating on void. *Rāmeśvara: The difference is that he does not give them Kṛṣṇa. He does not mention Kṛṣṇa. He tells them that they are all God. He has written a commentary on Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Then why meditation if you are God? Rāmeśvara: He is in the line of Śaṅkarācārya. He claims that he is coming from Śaṅkarācārya's disciplic succession. *Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya says, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha*-mate. Rāmeśvara: They have a story that Śaṅkarācārya was not healthy when he said that. (laughter) That is their story. Prabhupāda: God becomes unhealthy sometimes. (laughter) So what kind of God is he? If he is subjected to become unhealthy, like ordinary being, then what kind of God he is? Rāmeśvara: But the reason it is popular is because each student gets to think that he can become God. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: You don't have to take it seriously. You don't have to give up anything. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: There is no sacrifice involved, just a little money. They think it will help them develop something. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have met several people who have left him and who have realized that he is a cheat. They make the initial commitment, but after finalizing they all realize that he is a cheat. Prabhupāda: There are some like that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, many! Rāmeśvara: They do not consider him their spiritual master. The do not accept him as spiritual master. They do not surrender their life to him. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's just a business. Devotee: It is a business where they are paying money to get a mantra . They do not accept him completely as spiritual master. And he is happy that way. No responsibility. He just takes their money. Rāmeśvara: How old is he? Devotee: He is old. He cannot even enjoy anymore. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He has his own jet plane. Prabhupāda: Jet plane? Rāmeśvara: He has his own jet plane. Yet he tells the college students that if you take this process of Transcendental Meditation then you will become more intelligent, your efficiency will increase, you will be able to get better grades. When you go into the business world you will be a big success. So he is holding that out in front of them, and they are all buying it. And that is his . . . Devotee: It is compatible with sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: You use it to increase your sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Well that is very encouraging for materialistic person. If one is doing austerity, and is able to gratify your senses very nicely, then he is pleased. Devotee: It appears he has some mystic power to make everyone . . . make them believe in him. Prabhupāda: Śrīla Yes, that he has. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like that Sai Baba in India. I don't know about him but I met a lot of people who think that he is an incarnation of God. They say that he has done some mystic . . . Devotee (3): We met one fellow, he said he is Bhagavān. We said: "Bhagavān means all beauty." He said: "Yes." We said: "You call him beautiful?" (laughter) He didn't look very beautiful to me. (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About four days ago there was one devotee, Santoṣa. He is a Sanskrit editor. He was distributing books at Kennedy Airport, and one man walked up to him and said: "Hey, Kṛṣṇa is sitting in the Air India lounge!" So he went to the Air India lounge and there was an old Bengali sādhu . He did not even speak one word of English or Sanskrit. He had big beard and some ten, fifteen followers next to him, and one Indian businessman, and he was distributing chocolates to his followers. So Santoṣa went and sold him a book. Rāmeśvara: Haribol! Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They were calling him to be Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Bala Yogi also said he was Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But now his wife is suing him in the court. It was on television. Rāmeśvara: Bala Yogi's wife? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Bala Yogi is being sued by his wife in the court. I don't know. Someone told me they seen on television. And also various other people had financed him earlier, now they are filing claims against him for the money. And I read in an Indian newspaper that the city of Lucknow has filed a claim against Bala Yogi because they put up his posters all over the city, and they ruined the city property. So they filed an eleven*-thousand-rupees claim against him, and they will take them to court. Rāmeśvara: He is not considered seriously, but this other, Maharishi Yogi, they take him as an important teacher. And with all the money he has made he has purchased one university in America. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Really? Rāmeśvara: What is the name? Devotee (3): Parsons University, in Iowa. Rāmeśvara: He has purchased the whole university to teach his nonsense. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But the sincere souls realize that your movement is the only genuine movement. Prabhupāda: They say? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The sincere persons realize that your movement . . . Prabhupāda: But how many sincere persons I have got? (laughter) Devotee: All your disciples! Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even our sympathizers are advanced. Prabhupāda: Do they speak anything about our movement? It is already known. What do they speak? Rāmeśvara: They do not understand it. Prabhupāda: Hm? Rāmeśvara: They do not understand it. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? Rāmeśvara: They do not understand our movement, the purpose of it. Devotee: Balyogeshwar made one comment about our movement. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: He said that, "They are actually my best disciples." (laughter) Prabhupāda: He said? Devotee: He said that, "They love me so much, and they don't even know who I am." Rāmeśvara: Yes, he said that. I remember reading that in the newspaper. He claimed that Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees are his best disciples. Devotee (5): They are his best devotees, but they don't know it yet. Devotee: He thinks he is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Best disciple does not know him? (laughter) And still he is best! Devotee: He is saying that someday we will realize that he is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Does anyone become disciple without knowing him? This is too much . . . then how we become best disciple without knowing him? (laughter) And these things are published. You see: people are so foolish. They have no brain to understand a sentence. He says: "They are my best disciples but they do not know me." This is very good argument? Rāmeśvara: Nonsense. But his whole movement is nonsense. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rāmeśvara: No one takes him seriously anymore. Devotee: There was a fight between his mother and his brother on one side and him on the other side. His mother says he was becoming too Westernized and wanted to take him back to India, and he said . . . because he married that Western girl. Prabhupāda: Hm. Rāmeśvara: His secretary. Devotee: And so they had a big fight. And his mother . . . his mother is actually the power behind him. She has organized everything, and the brother, the older brother. So I think they went back to India, and he remained here. But there's big disagreement . . . Prabhupāda: He did not go. Somebody said that he will be arrested. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he can't go back because he ran away. They caught him smuggling about a year and a half ago. In fact there was an enquiry about this, how did he run away. Rāmeśvara: The college students are a little afraid of us, because when they see us wearing the kurtā and dhotī , they think that that we are introducing something that is so different that they cannot relate to it. But these Maharishi Yogi people, they dress up in this Western clothes, with suit and tie. Prabhupāda: Hm. Rāmeśvara: That is why Satsvarūpa Swami and his party, they also dress up in Western clothes to distribute books to the colleges. Otherwise they are a little fearful that this is something quite . . . (break) Devotee: The first time I ever saw the devotees I was shocked. (laughter) I just stood there and looked for five minutes. Rāmeśvara: They are afraid because they think we are monks, and they do not want to be monks. They do not . . . they are not thinking how to become monks when they go to college. So when they see us, they are a little afraid. So we are distributing lots of literature on the campuses to give them the philosophy of the *Vedas* , then they will appreciate us. But just by our appearance they are afraid that we are a threat to their Western way of life, sense gratification. Prabhupāda: The Ramakrishna Mission, they also dress like that, like sannyāsī . Devotee: Only the sannyāsī generally dresses in Indian style, in the West. Prabhupāda: No, no. They came to request me in the beginning that, "This dress will not appeal to them." If you dress like Devotee: (indistinct) . . . when I was in New York they told me. Devotee: Nikhilānanda? Prabhupāda: Nikhilānanda's men came to me, one Mr. Mukhal. So he said that, "This dress will not appeal. Dress like an American gentleman." So I said that "I am prepared to dress, but where is the dress? I am poor man. I cannot purchase." (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He wanted you to wear a suit? Prabhupāda: Yes. I told him that, "If you can give me at least four nice suits, I can accept." (laughter) I can change one every alternate day. Must be nicely ironed. I know how to use this dress. In my young business life I used to have it, (laughter) but now I have no money. But since the very beginning I never dressed like . . . I mean, Kīrtanānda Mahārāja . . . the same dress as I am telling you. You are not afraid of, of this dress. Rāmeśvara: No. But to distribute our books sometimes, in order to approach people so that they will not . . . Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another thing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotees are now wearing suits and wigs and going to campuses and airports. They have already started doing that. Prabhupāda: Hm. Silk? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They wear suits . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . and wigs to go to airports and places where they don't want to be recognized. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is all right. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Going very nicely. Prabhupāda: (someone enters) Mangoes? Good mangoes are coming nowadays. Devotee (2): It is hot. Pretty good! Devotee: Every morning there is a mango feast here. Rāmeśvara: Haṁsadūta is the king. (laughter) Devotee: King of the mangoes. (laughter) Prabhupāda: "King of mangoes" means? Devotees: He eats the most. Prabhupāda: He is controlling the mango market? (laughter) *Devotee: No, Guru*-krpa controls the market. Devotee: It seems a little warm in here. Shall I open the window a little bit? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Because we dress in the dhotīs , if they do not hear our philosophy, they think we are renouncing the world completely and have nothing positive to offer them. That is why we can introduce . . . if our writers for Back to Godhead become more expert, they can . . . Prabhupāda: We are not renouncing. We are actually accepting. You are renouncing. Devotee: We are accepting the real world. *Prabhupāda: No. We are accepting the Kṛṣṇa's society, or Kṛṣṇa's association. Kṛṣṇa has got His society in Vṛndāvana. We are going to become one of the members of that society. But you are avoiding it. So you are renouncing. Our mission is back to home, back to Godhead, to enter into the society of associates of God—but you are avoiding it. You do not want. You want this temporary so*-called society, friendship and love, which will be finished within some years. That is your ignorance. This society will not stay. How long you shall remain American? You will not remain for many days. Then where is your position? You will be kicked out. However you may try to remain in this so-called society, friendship and love, you will not be allowed to stay. You will be forced to renounce. We are trying to enter into the society of Kṛṣṇa, where everything is eternal. *So which is better? Your so*-called society cannot stay here, however nicely dressed with hats and coats and boots. You will be kicked out. Then where you will go? Ask this question to them. When they say something, you also say something. Why you are silent? Silent means accepting his proposal. Somebody . . . if I say something, if I say you are a thief but if you do not protest, if you remain silent, that means you are thief. This is the conclusion. If they say something, you say also. Rāmeśvara: When we meet individual people, we can easily explain to them our philosophy. Prabhupāda: That individual or collective, it does not matter. The argument is there. Suppose you want to stay in this dress, but you will not be allowed to stay. What is your answer? You will not be allowed. So you can be kicked out at any moment. In spite of your nice dress you will be kicked out. What is your answer to that? Devotee: The medical doctors are working to extend our lifetimes longer. Prabhupāda: "In future." Then again they say same. Rāmeśvara: "There is nothing after death." They will say that . . . they do not believe in an afterlife. Prabhupāda: An afterlife, that's all right. But you cannot stay in this dress. That is a fact. You will be kicked out in spite of your intention to stay. You again stay—you will be kicked out. Then how you are so confident? Nobody wants to be kicked out, but he is kicked out. So what is that course? You may think that there is no life after death, but you want to stay in this life to the last point. Even an old man, he does not want to die, but why he is kicked out against his will? What is their answer? Nobody . . . even the pig, in so abominable condition of life, if you go to kill him he will protest, scream, "No, no, no. Don't kill me, don't kill me, don't kill me." Why this protest? Rāmeśvara: It is māyā . Devotee (3): Kṛṣṇa's māyā . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's māyā is better, but what is the answer of this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Everybody wants to live. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. But he is kicked out. Then why does he not consider what is that force, that I don't want to die, but I am obliged to die? Who is . . . what is that force? Everything finished after this. They say everything will be . . . but this force will not be finished. The force will remain. The other living entities will remain back. They will also be forced. The force is permanent. Devotee: They say it is nature. Rāmeśvara: Material nature. Prabhupāda: That nature you may call any by name, but the force is there. So above you there is a force. That is a fact. Rāmeśvara: They will admit that. Devotee: They will admit. Prabhupāda: Then so why they say that everything will be finished? The force will remain. Why do they say, rascals, that everything is finished? Devotee: They say it for themselves or . . . Prabhupāda: That is there, but others will see the force. The force will remain. Why they say that everything will be finished? What is the value of this statement? Rāmeśvara: Their false egos. They have such big false egos that they are only thinking about their selves. Prabhupāda: That is so. They have nothing—insignificant. But the force is very great. That will remain. So why do you say everything is finished? Devotee: They don't have any experience of anything that's gone out of existence. Actually, in the material world there is no experience of anything going out of existence. Matter is always transforming and changing. That energy is changing into different kinds of energy, but nothing ever goes out of existence. So their theory is that they are going to go out of existence. *Prabhupāda: Changing, changing, changing—that is going on in you also. You have changed so many bodies, and still individually you are there. Changing is going on everywhere. That is our beginning of philosophy. The yoga*-saṁyoga —you are getting one type of body, it is changing. In the process of changing, again you get another body, then that is also changing, changing. But you are there, permanently. In spite of all changes, you are there. Otherwise how you can know that my so many changes have taken place? I am there, because I am seeing the changes; therefore despite all changes I am there, the . . . (indistinct) . . . person. This is the conclusion. If you do not see changes, then what is the meaning of changes? (end) Conversation -- May 31, 1976, Honolulu (Philosophy Discussion with Hayagrīva) Hayagrīva: Well that's the end of Kierkegaard. Prabhupāda: That's all. We will continue? Hayagrīva: It's up to you. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hayagrīva: Do you want to go on to Skinner, or stop? Prabhupāda: No. Stop. Hayagrīva: Stop? Prabhupāda: Tomorrow. Hayagrīva: Tomorrow? Well tomorrow we go . . . we travel. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. How many are there? Hayagrīva: How many are left? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Volumes? Hayagrīva: I'm trying to make it as short as possible. Prabhupāda: No, we can discuss some philosophers; whether it is necessary . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you, if you think that all these advertised philosophers should be cut, therefore I . . . I am not. Hayagrīva: Well this, erm, B. F. Skinner, Śyāmasundara began him. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hayagrīva: Some people thought he's . . . think he's important. I, I personally don't. That's my personal opinion on . . . he's a behaviorist, and he tried to set up a, a community called . . . he wrote a book called Walden Two , and it became a very popular book. When communities were being set up like New Vṛindaban, in 1968, this book became popular. And it was, uh . . . I don't think much of his philosophy, but he's a behaviorist. He believes that if you can control . . . you can control people by controlling the environment in which they live. Hari Śauri: That's the same as Marx's philosophy. *Hayagrīva: Mmm*-hmm. And, er . . . Prabhupāda: That is everyone's philosophy. Everyone wants to make a group. Hari Śauri: That's what you were saying this morning. They want to control nature rather than control their own natures. Hayagrīva: He felt first you control the environment, then you can control man, instead of the other way. Do you want to deal with all of these? Prabhupāda: I do not know. *Hayagrīva: Uh*-huh. Well, in Los Angeles they gave me a big, big list of all these people. They say all these people are important. And I've deleted a number of them, and wound up with the number thirty-eight, total. And we have about . . . oh, I figure we'd finish them all by the time you leave Los Angeles. If I can meet with you daily in Los Angeles, then we could finish them. Otherwise, some could be deleted. Prabhupāda: No. They can be shortly discussed. *Hayagrīva: Mmm*-hmm. Prabhupāda: Essential point. Hayagrīva: Essential point. Hari Śauri: Otherwise you come to New Vrindavan. Hayagrīva: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari Śauri: He's trying to get them finished before we leave Los Angeles, but there's always New Vrindavan. You can discuss there also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: So the next meeting will be Wednesday evening, in Los Angeles? You arrive in Los Angeles Tuesday night, tomorrow night. If I'm not on the same plane, I'll be on the next plane. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: So I will see you Wednesday evening. I think that . . . Prabhupāda: When you are going? Which flight? Govinda dāsī: I'm planning to go standby on your flight, because I can't get reservations. And if I don't get on your flight, I'm going on the same one with Hayagrīva—the one after that. But I'm hoping to go with . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Govinda dāsī: I wanted to show you this here. Prabhupāda: What is that? Govinda dāsī: This is the stone that we were thinking of using. Prabhupāda: What? Govinda dāsī: This is the silica and concrete mix that we were thinking of using. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: It . . . it should be shiny, but it's never been . . . (indistinct) . . . but it's not shiny, but the other side's not smooth. It could be colored in different ways, and this is a quick experiment. Prabhupāda: It is completely dried? *Govinda dāsī: Erm, it hasn't quite completely dried. It's supposed to dry twenty*-four hours, and it hasn't been quite twenty-four hours. So it gets harder as it dries. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Do . . . do you like it okay? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It will be very heavy. Govinda dāsī: Yes, because it's concrete. Prabhupāda: Hm. Govinda dāsī: You'd prefer something lighter? Prabhupāda: No. Everything should be very strong. Govinda dāsī: Thank you. (pause) (break) Hari Śauri: What did he say? (end) Interview -- June 3, 1976, Los Angeles Rāmeśvara: Do you want to sit on chairs or . . .? Reporter: No, this is fine. Rāmeśvara: Oh, good. Indian style. How large is the newspaper? The circulation? Reporter: 450,000. Rāmeśvara: Half a million. Reporter: Ah, Swami? What is your purpose here with your, ah . . . with the faith in seeking the growth and so on? Prabhupāda: (to Rāmeśvara) That is the purpose you can explain. Rāmeśvara: The purpose of our, of our seeking the growth is so that people all over the world can become happy again. People who are suffering due to lack of knowledge about who they are and what their relationship is with God, and as a result of that ignorance, they're performing so many activities which cause them pain and misery, so that they can become happy again. Reporter: Ah. How is . . . how will this be achieved? Prabhupāda: Misery . . . misery is caused due to ignorance. Do you admit or not? The more we are kept in darkness of knowledge, we suffer. What is the difference between ah . . . what is called? Developed nations and not developed nations. This America belonged to the Red Indians. And because they are not developed, their condition was developed, ah, different from the present America. They could not construct such big, big house, and big, big roads, and like that, because they are in ignorance. That is the difference. Prosperity, no prosperity; happiness, not happiness—they are ignorance and knowledge. Reporter: They have . . . is it that they have confused materialism with happiness? Prabhupāda: Not material, I mean, I mean to say, happiness is knowledge. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Happiness is knowledge. Man who is in ignorance, he is suffering, and that you say material and spiritually. A person who is not in developed consciousness, he is suffering. And they commit sinful acts also. Reporter: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: They commit sinful acts also in ignorance. That is the difference between man and animal. Animal means not developed consciousness. They . . . some of them, they say the animal has no soul. That is foolishness. Animal has soul, but the consciousness is not developed. Just like a child. Father's consciousness and the child's consciousness, different. Why it is different? The child's consciousness is not developed. Father's consciousness is developed. Because the child is talking some nonsense, you cannot say there is no soul. There is soul, but the consciousness is not developed. Reporter: Do you see hope for mankind in the future? Prabhupāda: Yes. Man can be happy immediately, provided the consciousness is developed. Reporter: Can . . . do you think that this will ever be achieved? Prabhupāda: Yes. It can be achieved. Just like I have sent a letter to your government asking them questions that you write on the bills, "In God We Trust." So whether you trust in God blindly or knowingly? That was my question. Suppose I trust you. So you must be trustworthy. Otherwise why shall I trust you? So this question I asked your government, "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so what kind of trust is this?" If you actually trust, then you must know that God is trustworthy. Only blindly trust as a slogan. But that letter is not in reply. So what is your opinion? "In God We Trust," so how do trust? Why you trust? This is my question. Reporter: It would be a matter of faith, I suppose. Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: It would be a matter of faith, I suppose. Prabhupāda: Faith may be different. You may have faith, I may not have faith. That is not the question. Just like in the bank you deposit some money. If some may have faith or no faith, but that bank is trustworthy. You know that your money deposited in the bank will not be cheated. Similarly, if you trust in God, then you must know whether God is trustworthy. Whether . . . what do you mean by God? This is not the question of faith. Faith is blind. It is a question of understanding. So that we want, that America specially—you are favored amongst all other nations; *you are well*-to-do, richer than other nations—so why don't you take God seriously? Why should you trust in God as faith? No. You understand what is God and have your faith at full that, "God is, yes, trustworthy," so that others may also know that God is trustworthy. That is our mission, that why God in trust? Are we trusting God should be a slogan? Let it be a fact by scientific study, by scientific understanding. There is way to understand why God is trustworthy. It's not the question of faith. It is a fact. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Just like a child had . . . has faith in his parents. So that is not an artificial thing. That is fact. And parents are trustworthy to the child—there is no doubt about it—by nature. So similarly, why could . . . you should be trust in God? Why blindly? Why not trust with knowledge? And that is our movement. Every civilized person has got some faith in God. But now they're advanced, they should understand what is God, why you must have faith in Him. That is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Reporter: It's a matter of educating . . . Prabhupāda: Simply faith, blind faith, will not endure. And therefore they are becoming godless. And gradually, if we do not understand factually what is God, then the whole human civilization will be godless. To become godless means again animal. That is the difference between animal and man. In the animal society there is no question of religion, faith, God. These things are not there. The human civilization, if it becomes like that, without any faith in God, without any understanding of God, then where is the difference between cats and dogs and human beings? They must know God scientifically. That is the actual aim of human life. Suppose the dog is sleeping on the street without any care whether a car is coming and smash it. He's also sleeping sound sleep. And we are sleeping in a very nice apartment. So after all, sleeping. And he is also enjoying sleeping, I am also enjoying sleeping. So do you think to change the, I mean to say, circumstances of the sleeping? I am sleeping in a very nice apartment, he's sleeping on the floor. Does it mean this is advancement of civilization? Sleeping is sleeping. Eating is eating. Sex life—the male dog enjoying with female dog, the sex pleasure is to him, and we are enjoying with a beautiful lover. The sex pleasure is the same. Therefore, you take some eatable, either on gold fork, or in iron fork, the taste is the same. Simply like putting the foodstuff in the golden fork, does it mean the taste has changed? So, the taste of eating, sleeping, mating and defending is the same for the human being as well as the animals. The difference . . . what is the difference between the animals and the human? The animal cannot know God. That is not possible. The human being can know. That is the opportunity of this human life. If we are missing that opportunity, then we are leading an animal civilization. This is not civilization. Animal life is not civilization. Civilized means not animal life. Something more than that. That is God consciousness. Reporter: Do you have programs developed to educate mankind towards this God consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Concrete education. Not fictitious. Concrete. Reporter: How will . . . how will you get man to become aware of the situation so he could desire—even desire unconsciously? *Prabhupāda: It is a very simple fact. If you simply understand that one verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā , there it is stated that: Very simple thing. Just like the art of the material nature. Everything is coming out of the material nature, beginning from the grass to the highest intellectual human being or more than that. Wherefrom they are coming? From this material nature, either earth, water, fire, this element, some material nature. Let us see from the ground, the grass is coming, the vegetable is coming. From the water the fishes are coming, all the ants are coming, the germs are coming. Then, after eating that vegetable, the animals are coming. In this way everything is coming, generated from the earth, from the material nature. Is it not a fact? Reporter: Mmm. Prabhupāda: So, we are coming from material nature. That means we are . . . material nature is our mother. From the womb of mother, the child comes from. So from the material nature everything is coming. Therefore according to Vedic knowledge, this earth is also mother. We have got seven mothers according to Vedic civilization: *Ātma*-mātā means original mother, real mother. And guroḥ patnī , the wife of teacher. The wife of a brāhmaṇa . . . brāhmaṇa means the most intellectual class of men in the human society, brāhmaṇa . It is not a caste; *it is a section in every human society. Always, there is a class of men very intelli . . . intelligent. They are called brāhmaṇa . So, ātma*-mātā, guroḥ patnī, brāhmaṇī, rāja-patnikā , and the queen—formerly there were kings—she is also considered mother. And dhenu means cow is mother, because we drink her milk. She supplies milk. That's mother. And pṛthvī , in the earth, we are coming out. So earth is mother. Really we see coming. And there may be different varieties of sons. That doesn't matter. But anything coming out the earth—the earth is mother—and that is coming out, that is son. Then where is the father? There must be father. Is it possible mother can give birth to a child without father? Reporter: Mm. Prabhupāda: Is it possible? Reporter: I wouldn't think so. Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: I wouldn't think so. No. *Prabhupāda: So, there must be father. This is conclusion. So who is searching about the father? The answer is in the Bhagavad*-gītā : ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4), "I am father." You cannot deny father, that is not possible. If there is mother, if there is child, there must be father. This is human sense. And animal sense is, "I don't care for father. There may be father, may not be . . ." That is animal sense. So do you want to keep the human society in such ignorance, just like cats and dogs? The dogs do not care who is father. This movement wants to give education to the human society, "Yes, there is father." And that is actual fact. Without father, how there is child? Is it possible? Then? For the present moment, the human society is child playing on the lap of mother, that's all. In big, big motorcars, that's all. Without any knowledge of father. But will the human being remain simply satisfied with toys on the lap of mother, or you'll try to understand who is father? So we are satisfied with the toys, and playing on the lap of the mother. The motorcar is running very swiftly, head-break or neck-break speed, and they are thinking they are civilized, advanced. What is . . . "Who is your father?" "Don't know." Rāmeśvara: Then "Where do you live?" Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: Where do you . . . where do . . .? Prabhupāda: But he lives on the lap of mother, that's all. That is child. Child is satisfied on the lap of the mother, that's what I am saying. He doesn't . . . the child doesn't care, "I have to know the father." But there is father, that's a fact. That means the present civilization is childish civilization, does not care to know the father. So whether the human civilization will remain child, children? They fight amongst themselves. Children, however you can . . . "My dear children, live peacefully." So for the time being they may be. Again they will fight, they will cry. That is going on. What the United Nation has done for the last forty years? They're fighting like children or animals. So you keep . . . if you keep them as child or animal, do you think there will be peace? That is not possible. It is futile attempt, the talking of big, big words for peace. That is not possible. I think in Melbourne I, in my press interview, I said if the United Nation is working. Ambarīṣa: I just came from Vancouver from the Habitat Conference. The U.N. is having a Habitat Conference in Vancouver, and believe me, it is not united. There was constant . . . there were discussions, then arguments. Sometimes there were walkouts, so many things, and they're not able to reach any conclusions. They can't agree with each other. Prabhupāda: How could they? Do you mean to say dogs simply barking, they will come to a conclusion? (chuckles) It is not possible. There is no aim, what is the actual aim of life. So this is very important movement. At least the intelligent class of men, they must understand it thoroughly. Just like there is body. There are different parts, different section of the body, but the most important section is the brain. Similarly, the important section of society means one who is fully in God consciousness. I . . . you can cut my hands, I shall live. You can cut my legs, I shall live. But if you cut my head . . . (indistinct) . . . life. So at the present moment, there are big, big scientists, big, big technologists. That's all right; that is hands and legs. But there is no brain. Therefore in one sense you can take it as dead society. So in my opinion, I like your country, America. Sometimes I call, "This is my fatherland," because these American boys, they are helping me pushing on this movement. So I am very much obliged to these boys. Now let us take it little more seriously, statewise. And if America takes it seriously, other nations will follow. As there is the United Nations Organization in America, and make a nice organization to understand God. United Nations God Consciousness. People will benefit. Reporter: Do you see America getting more God consciousness? Prabhupāda: At least I see majority of my disciples are Americans. Why not expanding? Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda? Before, Richard (the reporter) asked me a question: What is the difference between our movement and, say, another religion like the Sikhs or some other religion? Prabhupāda: Don't misunderstand. It is . . . religion means a kind of faith. Just like you are Christian, I am Hindu. So you have faith in Christian religion, I have faith in Hin . . . that is another thing. But this is . . . we understand religion in a different way according to English dictionary. But real religion means the law given by God. This is the shortcut definition of religion. And if you do not know what is God, and if you do not know what is His law, then what is the meaning of religion? There is no meaning of religion. If blindly, if I have some faith in some dogmas and ritualistic ceremonies, that is not religion. Religion means the science by which you can understand God and the law of God. That is religion. It is not a kind of faith. Just like state laws: you may have faith or no faith, the state law is law; you have to obey it. Just like I have come in America. In our country the street law is "Keep to the left." So I have come to America; you say: "Keep to the right." If I say: "No, I have no faith in this. Keep to the left . . ." No, I must obey. That is law. Similarly, religion means you may have faith or no faith, but you must obey. It is a must. It is not optional. That is religion. That, I explained it many times, that character . . . (indistinct) . . . means characteristic. Just like every one of us, we are servant. So, the living entity is servant. He may have faith or no faith, he must be a servant. And if you don't become servant of God, then you become servant of dog. That is your advancement of civilization. When there is no service for God—just like here we have got service for God; there is no question of serving dog. But when we forget service of God, then automatically we become service of dog. But service . . . I am servant, that's a fact. And voluntarily keep a dog and serve him. If I have no master, then I keep a master, dog, cat. You call it by the name "pet." What is a pet? I do service, that's all. So this is our advancement of civilization. We have refused to serve God, and you voluntarily accept to serve dog. Now in India, they are also learning. (chuckles) And formerly, dog keeping, dog there was in the neighborhood, but they were not allowed to enter the room or house. Now they are keeping dogs just like the Western people keep. They are making dog show and so on, so on. Rāmeśvara: Dog show. Prabhupāda: They are learning how to serve the dog. And they are giving up God. Ambarīṣa: Yeah, there are a lot of people here that worship their pets. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambarīṣa: Yes. Rāmeśvara: The Russians served Lenin. Prabhupāda: They are imitating. You understand people are very expert in this subject matter. They have come . . . learning everything. Devotee (1): We can't avoid serving. Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Ambarīṣa: That's all there is in life, is service. *Prabhupāda: Now we are sitting, so many gentlemen. He's serving some paper, he's serving some paper, and you are serving God. The service is there. Nobody can say: "No, I don't serve anyone." Is there any man? No. That is not possible. You must serve. Constitutionally, you are meant for service, either you are president of the state or this anything. That is your position. That is the beginning of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108). All living entities are eternal servant of God. Reporter: And all service is the same? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: All service is the same. Devotee (1): No. He says, "All service is the same." Prabhupāda: How can it be? All service is the same? Do you think . . . Reporter: Everybody serves in their own way, but it's all . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . unless you come to the service of God, it is wrong. Devotee (2): I think he's asking, "But if it is service to God, then in God's eyes, all service to Him." Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Right. Prabhupāda: Yes. God, service to God means, just like you put foodstuff in the stomach, then the service, supplying energy, is distributed automatically. The eyes get service, the ears get service, the hands get service, legs get service—everything. But if you put foodstuff in the eyes, instead of giving service, you make it blind. If you put foodstuff in the ear, instead of hearing, it is blocked. Then that is ignorance. You do not know where to give service. So the knowledge, God consciousness, means to know where to give service so that the service will be automatically distributed. You pour water on the root of the tree and the energy will be distributed to the trunk, to the branches, to the twigs, to the leaves, to the flowers, everyone. But we are missing their point. This is scientific. So instead of giving service in so many ways—social, political, philosophical, cultural, this way, that way—if you simply learn how to serve God, then everything will be done. So that is our philosophy, and we are laboring for this purpose, that you understand God and give service to Him, then the whole society will be perfect, peaceful. Reporter: I have no more questions. Rāmeśvara: No questions about the Society. Devotee (1): You asked earlier about our program for educating society. Are you still interested in this? Prabhupāda: This education is all explained. Devotee (2): I think he was interested also in the techniques by which we go about educating society. We have some techniques which . . . Prabhupāda: Technical knowledge is not education. Devotee (2): No, but I mean, as far as our books are . . . we have our techniques for educating society. Prabhupāda: Oh. Rāmeśvara: Our program is to distribute the books of the *Vedas* with our spiritual master's philosophical commentaries. We already discussed a little bit before we came. *Prabhupāda: And all this subject matter, everything, sixty*-two books already. Rāmeśvara: Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (2): Jaya! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Interview -- June 4, 1976, Los Angeles Reporter: I wonder if you can tell me a little bit about your routine. I understand that you only sleep about two or three hours a day. And do you usually sleep during the middle of the daytime as well? Prabhupāda: Yes. Daytime I sleep two hours, and night also two hours. Reporter: Ah! Two hours at night also. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Reporter: Does it . . .? Is it more difficult to do this when you're traveling a lot? Prabhupāda: No. I . . . my work is going on. By traveling also, I carry this machine, Dictate . . . dictaphone. I dictate, and then my assistants, they write, transcribe, and then it is . . . it goes to the Press. In this way my work is going on. (sounds coming from outside) Reporter: I'd like to ask one . . . is your role in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the United States particularly or worldwide? Ten years ago, when you first came to the United States, did you take a very active role in the organization, and I'm wondering whether you do much of that now? Prabhupāda: No, although the volume of work has incr . . . (break) . . . a hundred times, but these American disciples, they are helping me, so I haven't got to work personally so much. I simply give the instruction and they carry out. But the work has increased voluminously, there's no doubt about it. I came here alone in 1965 without any help practically. Where to live, where to sleep, there was no destination. Sometimes some friend's house, sometimes some friend's house, practically loitering on the street. And in this way were passed more than one year. I arrived here in 1965 in September, end of September, 17th of September, in Boston. Hmm. Is it Boston? Devotee (1): Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, in Boston, I stayed on the sea, on the only, but I saw the Boston city. Then I was brought to New York. So I had one friend in Butler, Pennsylvania. Hmm. After my arrival, I was received by some representative of my host. So he took me to Butler, and there I stayed for twenty days. Then I came to New York. (break) . . . one introductory letter to one Dr. Mishra. So that is the beginning of my life in New York. Then struggling. Then gradually, when these boys came to me, I got some relief. And in this way we are propagating, opening branches, and the movement is going forward. Reporter: Are there many decisions that people ask you to make, about whether the movement should do this, or should do that, or do they bother you of that now, or are you just busy writing and translating? *Prabhupāda: No, we do not accept any—what is called?—defective suggestion. We do not accept. We have got our program. This program is coming directly from Kṛṣṇa. The Bhagavad*-gītā is there. Reporter: Okay. Prabhupāda: So we are simply giving a practical set of the instruction of *Gītā* . This is our business. We don't manufacture any imaginative thing. Rāmeśvara: His idea . . . his question, Prabhupāda, is also, suppose someone wants to buy a farm or wants to do some new project. Do they ask your permission first? Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole Society is going on under my direction. Whatever they do, they take my permission and they put into action. Nothing is allowed without my permission. *Reporter: I wonder if you might have any opinions on some of the leaders of cults and groups in the United States, such as the Divine Light Mission, or the T.M. and so forth. I'm wondering if you have any opinions on Guru Maharaj*-ji or Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. *Prabhupāda: There are different groups. I know that. But I do not go in detail to understand them. But our . . . we have got a crucial test, that anyone who is . . . does not know about Kṛṣṇa, he is put into four different types of categories, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . One category is that he is sinful. Another category is that he is rascal. Another category is that he's lowest of the mankind. And another category is that his so-called knowledge is taken away by illusory energy. So this is our test. That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā , that: Anyone who is not talking about God, he is either of these group: sinful, rascal, lowest of the mankind, and knowledge taken away by illusion. This is our conclusion, and that's a fact. Because a person who does not know about God, what he is? He is animal. The animal has no knowledge about God. But a human being, if he poses himself to be very learned, then he must have knowledge about God; otherwise what is his knowledge? Reporter: Do you have any opinion about Ted Patrick, who I guess you've probably heard of? Prabhupāda: I, I do not care to read these persons. But I have no business, because we are strictly following Kṛṣṇa. Our signboard is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So anyone who does not know anything about Kṛṣṇa, we reject him immediately. That's all. Simple business. Reporter: Is the only way to know Kṛṣṇa through the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. If you want to know me, then you must know about me from me. You can not speculate about me. If you speculate that, "Swāmījī is so rich," or "Swāmī might have so much bank balance also," or "He may be so . . ." This is all speculation. But when I say that my bank balance is such and such, that is right knowledge. Reporter: I didn't understand you. Prabhupāda: That suppose if you are speculating what may be the Swāmījī's strength of bank balance. So how you can know it by speculation? But if I say that my bank balance is such and such, than you can understand what is bank balance. So by speculative knowledge you cannot understand God. When God says what He is, then you can understand. Reporter: Do you feel also that if someone read the Bhagava . . .? I can't pronounce it . . . *Rāmeśvara: Bhagavad*-gītā . *Reporter: . . . Bhagavad*-gītā and other books, that a person merely by reading these could attain knowledge of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Reporter: Would that person have to have contact with you and learn from you also? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is explained; *there is no difficulty. But if there is difficulty to understand, then we have to approach a person who has understood Bhagavad*-gītā . Otherwise the language is very plain; there is no difficulty. Unfortunately, they bring their own interpretation and spoil the whole thing. Reporter: Um . . . *Prabhupāda: Otherwise where is the difficulty? Just like the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: *The beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā is the battlefield, and the battlefield is called Kurukṣetra. So Kurukṣetra is still there in India, but these so-called learned scholars, politicians, they're squeezing out some meaning out of Kurukṣetra. What is the necessity? Kurukṣetra is a place where actually, historically the battle took place. (Reporter changes cassette of tape recorder) (break) Rāmeśvara: . . . culture Prabhupāda: Yes. Attentive. Reporter: You don't see any slowing down of the impact of . . . Prabhupāda: No. It can be slowed down unless we spoil it. Reporter: Is there anyone who is designated to succeed you as the primary teacher of the movement? Prabhupāda: I am training some, I mean to say, advanced students so that they may be very easily take up the charge. I have made them GBC. They are under my direct training, and I think they will be able to conduct this movement. Reporter: Do you expect to name one person as your successor, or have you already? Prabhupāda: That I am not contemplating now. But there is no need of one person. As other things are managed, but by committee, so this can also be managed, and the committee may elect one person as chief. As, just like in the democracy there are senators and there is president, so it may be I may nominate or they can nominate. Reporter: Do you feel are you in good health now? You look it. Prabhupāda: Yes. After all, of course I am eighty, eighty years old. And I complete eighty years next September. So the age is there, although I am feeling not aged by . . . the effect of age must be there. Reporter: I didn't understand that. Rāmeśvara: He says although . . . Prabhupāda says although he's not feeling aged, the effect of age is there. Reporter: When I interviewed you perhaps five or six years ago, it was before there were reports of the astronauts landing on the moon, and I asked you at that time if you thought . . . what you thought about it, and you said that, as I recall, that they would not be able to land or explore, because spirits or creatures that lived on the moon would not allow it. The reports of course said that indeed people did land and explore and return safely. I understand you have further thoughts about that (laughter) and you've even written a lot about it. I wonder if you could tell me, not at great length perhaps, but what your belief about those events is. *Prabhupāda: Yes. From the . . . that question I was discussing the other day. In the common sense, question, that all over the world, they accept Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, in this way Saturday last. So why these arrangement, Sunday first and Monday second? And nobody could reply it. But as a layman I can conclude that sun planet is first and the moon planet is next. So if you cannot go to the sun planet, which is ninety*-three million miles away, how you can go to the moon planet within four days? Nobody could answer me. Can you answer? Reporter: Well, I don't think it's worth the answer now, but I'm wondering what your response is. *Prabhupāda: But this is the arrangement all over the world. Sunday first, Monday second, then Tuesday. So sun, moon, Mars, Jupiter, in this way. Last Saturn. This is the arrangement of the planets. So if this is the arrangement of the planets, moon*-day next to . . . moon next to sun, and if you cannot go to the sun, how can you go to the moon? Reporter: Do you, in other words, do you believe that astronauts landed somewhere? *Prabhupāda: That is next question. First of all, whether you actually went to the moon, that is the first question. You have to conclude that you did not, because the sun planet is first, the moon planet is second. You cannot go to the sun planet, ninety*-three millions of miles, how can you go to the moon planet? Reporter: Well, except that . . . Prabhupāda: According to our śāstra , the moon planet is above the sun planet, and the distance is 1,600,000 miles. So accepting that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away, then you add another 1,600,000, almost 2,000,000, it becomes 15,000,000 miles away. So if you go at the speed of 18,000 miles per hour, it takes more than 6 months. So how you go there in 4 days? And you advertise in the paper: "Now they have reached," after 4 days. Rāmeśvara: They don't accept that the moon is further away. Prabhupāda: They don't accept, that is another thing, but we have got this information. How we can accept it? Reporter: I didn't understand that last. Rāmeśvara: I said to Prabhupāda that the modern man believes that the moon is closer, but Prabhupāda said: "But our ancient literatures teach that the moon is further away. So since we have that information, how can we accept the version of the modern scientists?" Reporter: Hmm. Hmm. Rāmeśvara: We've got . . . Prabhupāda: Not only that. Why this arrangement that Monday and . . . Sunday first, Monday second? Reporter: Well, that doesn't necessarily speak of distance. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Reporter: It doesn't necessarily speak of distance. Prabhupāda: That . . . distance may not be, but you have to accept the sun planet first, moon planet next. Reporter: Er . . . Prabhupāda: Distance is not the question. Reporter: Okay. Prabhupāda: Why this arrangement: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday? There is some system. The system is, just like first, second, third, fourth. So it is naturally concluded the moon planet is next to the sun planet. Reporter: Do you feel—maybe you answered this, but I didn't understand the answer—do you feel that astronauts did land somewhere, but it was some other planet? Prabhupāda: That may be. Or it may not be also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about that sometimes people ask us what about the pictures of man on the moon? Rāmeśvara: They show man in a spacesuit walking on some other planet. Prabhupāda: That is also, what is called, argumentative. Somebody says it is laboratory arrangement. Reporter: Hmm. Laboratory. Prabhupāda: Of course, we do not go into the details of this. My question is that why Sunday first and Monday second? Nobody can apli . . . replies. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda once also argued that the dust, the dirt that they brought back, it did not reflect any light, but the moon is always reflecting light. So it was a different substance than what must be on the moon surface. Prabhupāda: Now, according to our Vedic scripture, moon is one of the heavenly planets. Reporter: Are there any other Vedic scriptures that you believe speak to a situation that is greatly misunderstood today besides this? Prabhupāda: No. Vedic understanding means there is no different Vedic version. Reporter: But do people . . . say another example where what you hold is very different from what the rest of society holds, is there something else that would be . . . Prabhupāda: No. Why . . . Rāmeśvara: No, he means, Prabhupāda, that just like modern man is thinking that they went to the moon, and our Vedic scripture says they didn't, so he's asking are there any other controversies, just like reincarnation, transmigration . . . Prabhupāda: No, so far Vedic students are concerned, there are no controversies. Rāmeśvara: But from what the modern man believes there may be some differences. Prabhupāda: Modern man believes, that's all right, but . . . Rāmeśvara: That's what his question is. *Prabhupāda: Our, our basic knowledge is on the Vedic principle, that whatever . . . just like we are explaining now, veda*-vihito dharmaḥ . We have to understand everything from the Vedas , from this Vedic knowledge. So anything which does not speak accor . . . in terms of the Vedic formula, we do not accept such knowledge as valid. Reporter: Okay. Prabhupāda: But practically you are seeing that. But . . . Reporter: Would you accept conclusions from science that . . . only if it agreed with the Vedic scriptures? Prabhupāda: First of all is that . . . as you say science, what do you mean by science? Can you explain? Reporter: Well, what the . . . the best conclusions of the best people in science. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right, but what is the best conclusion? Reporter: Well, rely on their opinions. Prabhupāda: That is opinion. The opinion is changing. How you can rely? That is not fixed up. So what is this opinion? What is the value of this opinion? Reporter: Well . . . Prabhupāda: You give some opinion, and after some years you change it. So what is the . . . how can I rely on your opinion? Reporter: Would Darwin's theory of evolution and other evolutionary theories . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, if it is being changed every year or every ten years, then what is the value of this opinion? There is no value. Reporter: Well, but religious thought in India has changed over the years too. Prabhupāda: No. Nothing. We do not change. Just like your Bhagav . . . Reporter: Well, others . . . Prabhupāda: Bhagav . . . Reporter: Others change. *Prabhupāda: Ah, others may deviate, that is another thing. But the system is not that. You cannot deviate from the Vedic injunction, that if you have to follow the ācāryas , just like India is obeying. The mass population or the sane population, they are following the ācāryas . ācāryas means great teachers, bona fide teachers—perhaps you have heard their name—just like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. So they are followed, and they are of the same opinion. Millions of years ago, what was the opinion, and that opinion is still there. Ācchā , take for Bhagavad*-gītā . And that is . . . not a single Indian who does not accept Bhagavad-gītā as authority. This is besides the foreigners who also take interest so much in Bhagavad-gītā . So far Indians are concerned, even some of the Muhammadans. So apart from Muhammadans, those who are claiming as Hindu, they all accept the authority of Bhagavad-gītā . So this Bhagavad-gītā , they might have changed, but that is not acceptable. Reporter: I think I covered most questions that I wanted to in the interview. Did you say that somebody would be transcribing? Rāmeśvara: Yes, I'm going to arrange to have it transcribed. Reporter: Because there are a lot of things that I couldn't catch, just because I'm not atuned to hearing you, so a lot of words I did not understand. But . . . Rāmeśvara: I'll arrange for that. Reporter: Okay. Rāmeśvara: You'll get it tomorrow. Reporter: Oh, I enjoyed it very much. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (break) Rāmeśvara: Just like there is this one point that the scientists say something which everyone in the world believes, but you are saying something different. So he was very interested . . . Prabhupāda: No. I . . . I . . . Reporter: Well the Vedic scriptures say that. Rāmeśvara: Yes, the Vedic scriptures . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: . . . say something different. Prabhupāda: The thing is, that is practical. That scientifics statement given today, and after few days it is changed. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then if I say: "What is the value of such statement if you change it?" That is my point. And so far Vedic injunctions are there, you don't change. What was given millions of years ago, that we carry. Reporter: Thank you very much. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- June 6, 1976, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: . . . just like you are also following the instructions, spiritual instructions. So we see those disciples who observe these four regulative principles, they become . . . (indistinct) . . . according to the advice from the brāhmaṇas . It is very good, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas ( BG 3.21). If the leaders of the society accept something, then the followers, they also accept. So that brainwork must be there. Just like in the whole body, the brain is the most important part. If one of your arms is cut off, you do not die; but if the head is cut off, you will die. So the brāhmaṇa community of the society must be maintained, otherwise who will guide? Without brain, who will guide the arms and the legs and the head? So at the present moment that is lacking. The brain society is practically nil, and they are not eager to establish or to educate a section of people to become perfect brāhmin . There is no such arrangement. There is engineering college, medical college—so many different departments are there, educational institutions—but there is no institution throughout the whole world how to train a class of men to become perfect brāhmaṇas , or intelligent class. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are just trying to set up a section of the people to become very, very intelligent. And who is very, very intelligent? One who knows God. He is intelligent. That is the end of knowledge. As any educational program it has got an end, so we are getting knowledge in so many ways, but end of knowledge is to know God. That is called Vedānta . Vedā means "knowledge"; anta means "end." Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). That is the end of knowledge. Simply by knowing God, you know everything. So that knowledge is lacking and being covered. So we are trying to give this knowledge to human society. Anyone helps this movement, he also becomes recognized by God. (indistinct aside to devotee about light) Therefore they have got Vedic process. Brain must be maintained. Just like if somebody is coming to attack you, you first of all try to protect your brain, head. Is it not? And his hands, not his legs. So the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. Brāhmaṇa is the brain, and the hands are the kṣatriyas . The brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya , and everyone is maintained by food, digestion—that is belly. Unless you digest nicely, then the brain will not act, and legs . . . hands will not act. Devotee: And then the legs, śūdras ? Prabhupāda: All of them required. They have got different functions. That is scientific division of human society. Somebody must work as brain, somebody works as hand, somebody works as belly, and somebody must work as legs. That is complete body. So other things are taken care of, but the government, the . . . (indistinct) . . . they are neglectful about this brain, brāhmaṇa . That is the defect of modern civilization. Therefore the human society is in more or less chaotic condition. There are so many educated leaders, so many universities, but still the society is not working. They are trying to adjust things in the United Nations. That is also not doing, because there is no brain, no brāhmaṇa . That is a fact. They do not know how to act. Everybody is whimsically saying something: "I think," "I believe." "You believe," "I believe," "He believes." Everyone believes. Who we should accept? What is the standard? From the present civilization everyone is coming forward: "I believe." You believe; I also believe. You don't accept my belief; I don't accept your belief. Finished. Whole adjustment is wrong. So there must be standard belief. If everyone puts forward his own belief, then which one will be the standard? So we are taking the Kṛṣṇa's instructions as standard. And that is the fact. There must be something standard. In the society, in such condition that "I believe," "You believe," "He believes," what is the standard? Devotee: Chaos. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the present condition. They are manufacturing their own ideas. They cannot accept the standard idea. If the whole human society in the United Nations passes a resolution that "The standard ideas advocated by the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we shall accept," immediately all problems solved. That is a fact. *Devotee: Prabhupāda, we have very strict standards. There is no second chance. We have a no smoking, no drinking, no drugs or anything. Just one offence, they are released for a lifetime—they can never return. So it's a very strict standard. We are the only corporate structure in North America. We have a very intelligent lawyer to put it into corporate rules, because sometimes people say that it is taking away their freedom of choice. After working hours you can have it legally on your papers that they cannot drink while working, but we have it even while on off*-hours. Our people work pretty hard. One question I wanted to ask you—I talked to Guru dāsa about it quite a bit—was as far as chanting rounds were concerned. Our people do work often sixteen, seventeen, eighteen hours a day, because we want to make this thing work. And sometimes we find that sixteen rounds, they don't do any, because in the end, it is not possible; they just don't have time, because of the work. Is there some kind of standard that we could set that would be . . . *Prabhupāda: General regulation is, suppose today you could not complete sixteen rounds—say you have completed twelve rounds—so the next day you complete four rounds. That means twenty rounds. Next day regular sixteen rounds, plus yesterday's. That is the rule. Anyway, something is better than nothing. (laughter) But the rule, regulation is, just like the Gosvāmīs, they, if they missed chanting rounds, they would not sleep, completely. That is vow, dṛḍha*-vrata . In Sanskrit it is called dṛḍha-vrata. That makes very strong spiritual strength. Devotee: Part of the problem from our point is that we hide our bead bags, because people think we'd be very ridiculous to be carrying a bead bag around. Prabhupāda: That is . . . (indistinct) . . . convince them. They can carry, what is called? Trans . . . transistor. Devotee: Transistor radio. Prabhupāda: Like a log. (laughter) And if you cannot carry it always . . . so it is very big social problem. Devotee: So we have to be careful of our position, because some people they have told me that, "I would be walking down the street sometime, and we passed the devotees . . ." Prabhupāda: No. You can say that, "I have got some defect in my hand. I have got some defect for chanting. Therefore I have covered it." (laughter) Hari Śauri: Sometime I have had people ask me why my hand is bandaged up. Devotee (2): This idea of teaching tennis is actually a good platform for preaching, because the people in America are so eager to learn how to play tennis. If they can tell all their customers, "Now if you want to play tennis very good—you have to follow these four rules, that will help you play tennis." *Prabhupāda: No, this tennis—not exactly like this—but this ball*-throwing, you see in the Bhāgavata , the queens of Kṛṣṇa on the roof, they are playing ball, throwing ball. That was a form of exercise—of course for the high-class kings and queens. Ordinary man, he is working all the day; *he hasn't got time to take to sporting. But queens, they have nothing to work. So on the roof of the palace they are playing this ball, this kind of tennis. I think that tennis is also meant for very high*-class society, eh? Devotee (2): Formerly it was just very exclusive. But now it is becoming the most popular sport in America. *Devotee: Thirty*-seven million people out of two hundred and twenty million people are now playing tennis. So it is the most popular sport. It is just a catalyst for media. Prabhupāda: I have seen in that park. Devotee: Yes, Rancho Park. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Rancho Park. Prabhupāda: What it's called? Devotee: Yes, where they . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Early in the morning they are playing tennis. Devotee: Right. We went for a walk one time, when I went out on a walk with you, and we were passing by the tennis courts, and all my friends were coaching friends, so I kind of hid in the middle of the group, because they would think I was a little bit crazy to be a devotee. And so I've had a lot of disguise. We are just using tennis as a medium. If the company fails tomorrow, then we know that we will always go straight to the temple. But right now it is a tremendous opportunity for us, because they become attracted to us, because we don't have shaved heads, because we aren't carrying bead bags externally. So they like us, and they become our friends. *Prabhupāda: In the . . . (indistinct) . . . yena tena prakāreṇa mana kṛṣṇe niveśayet : somehow or other draw the attention to Kṛṣṇa. So if the tennis player somehow or other comes to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he gets . . . (indistinct) . . . not that one has to live in the temple. Somehow or the other, if he chants Kṛṣṇa's name, he's a devotee. Yena tena prakāreṇa mana kṛṣṇe niveśayet. There is a verse. Somehow or other if somebody comes to the light, he takes, he sees sense—like that. So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Somehow or the other be conscious of Kṛṣṇa. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65). *Man*-manā means "think of Me." In another place: *"Of all , one who is thinking particularly of Me . . . (indistinct) . . . is considered the best." So somehow or the other if people are educated to think of Kṛṣṇa, that will be a great benefit in his life. Simply thinking. Other things you may do or may not do, but thinking of Kṛṣṇa is very, very important. That is education, first*-class education. Somehow or other. *So thinking of Kṛṣṇa means he is becoming purified. Material life is impure. Due to our impurity, we are attached to this material body. So the more you purify, then you come to your spiritual body. And when you are completely purified, no more restriction. No more . . . (indistinct) . . . the example given is the iron rod. You put it in the fire so it becomes warmer, gradually it becomes red*-hot. When it is red-hot it is no more iron rod; it is fire. Is it not? So if you always think of Kṛṣṇa, then you become gradually spiritualized, and then perfected in your spiritual life. You don't have any more material body in this life, and next life there is no restraint, simply . . . (indistinct) *Material body is the source of all tribulation. We have got suffering and so*-called enjoyment of life. This is due to this body. So as soon as we accept this material body, the material sufferings must be there. The chief material suffering is death. You have no . . . (indistinct) . . . birth, death, old age, disease—these are the highest, topmost material sufferings. Nobody wants to die, but death is come upon you. Nobody wants to take birth, but there is . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody wants old age, but there is . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody wants disease, but there is suffering. So either you live in America or in India or in heaven or hell, these material sufferings accompany you. But you do not want them. You are all sportsmen, young men, but you cannot expect that there will be no old age . . . (indistinct) . . . sportsman . . . (indistinct) . . . you cannot be . . . (indistinct) . . . there are so many young men, they are running in the morning, but if I run like that a few steps . . . (laughter) (laughs) So even I want it, I cannot do it, because I am old man. But this is compulsory. Because nobody wants to become old man and suffer. The science continues. They are defying God. So-called scientists say there is no need of God; you can solve all problems by science. Is it possible? But you cannot solve these four unwanted things—birth, death, old age and disease. It is impossible to check it. The devas , they are . . . (indistinct) . . . they control. That is the proof of existence. They deny the existence of God: "God is dead," "There is no God," "There is no need of God." But God is there. Simply worship. You are small. God will come at death, and everything will be taken away. *That is mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gītā : mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34) *"I come as death to take away all his assets, his health, his money, his assets, his education—everything." Sarva*-haraś. Sarva-haraś means "taking away." Therefore His name is Hari. Hari means "who can take away everything." So He takes away of the atheists all his possessions, and He takes away all discomforts of the devotees. Therefore His name is Hari; *He takes away. He takes away of the nondevotees all his so*-called possessions, of which he is very, very proud; and He takes away all the troubles of the devotee. This is going on. The devotee becomes very, very happy when all his material conditions are taken away by Kṛṣṇa: . . . (indistinct) . . . no more birth, death, old age and disease. He takes away all the disadvantages. And for the materialistic person, he is thinking, "All these my possessions: my wife, children, my house, my nation, my position, my bank balance and so on, so on, so on." He takes away. Forcefully it is taken away. We are thinking, "My strong body," deha , "my good children—very qualified, educated, well placed," dehāpatya; *kalatra , "my good wife, faithful wife—very pleasing, enchanting." Dehāpatya*-kalatrādiṣu . This is a struggle for existence, and we take these things as our soldiers. Just like a king fights with his soldiers, similarly, we fight, struggle for existence, that we have got a very comfortable home. We think that we are secured, but we are not secure. All these soldiers will be finished. He is a madman. He is thinking that his things will be safe. They will be finished with you—everyone. Then another chapter begins. From your good work in this life you can remain as a statue in the park. (laughter) You have to accept another body . . . (indistinct) . . . again. (pause) So in your job, do you read our books sometimes? *Devotee: Oh, more than sometimes. When we travel, I tell them . . . because we have to deal with the so*-called karmi world on our . . . I tell all of our professionals to do as much as they can, like they should always sleep with the bead bag in our hand, so that if you wake up at night we can chant ourselves back to sleep. And always read a book on Kṛṣṇa before you got to sleep, because our mind becomes agitated occasionally because of the dealings with the karmi world. So we have to do as much as we can to checkpoint any problems that may exist, so . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, the whole science of reading from the book, the situation is that you can dream of it. That is very good. Devotee: A couple of us are like life members. And every . . . most of the sincere . . . only the very intimate people within our organization really know about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They . . . we talk about karma , and whenever anyone falls down on the court and gets hurt, I tell them, "Don't worry, because you are not your body." And gradually, gradually it's starting to . . . you can see how they react, and if they react positively, then we introduce Kṛṣṇa consciousness to them. But if they are not, then we just, we don't . . . we leave them. Prabhupāda: By these activities you become recognized very nicely by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says: Anyone who does like this, he becomes very, very dear to Kṛṣṇa. That is our business, how to become dear to Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa says only, "Yes, you are all right," then your life is a success. Recognization by Kṛṣṇa! That is the success for us. This whole movement is how to be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Only Kṛṣṇa has to confirm, "Yes, you're doing . . . (indistinct) . . ." That is our aim; *that is our ambition—how Kṛṣṇa will recognize our service. And once recognized, then your life becomes successful. But He recognizes even slight service to Him. He is so kind. There are so many histories where He recognizes even slight service, insignificant. That is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā : Even slight service can save him from the greatest danger. *So try to do some service for Kṛṣṇa, and you can say you are recognized. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that we should not be very much anxious to see Kṛṣṇa, but we should work in such a way that Kṛṣṇa will see us. We should not try to see Kṛṣṇa. Many people are very anxious to see God. They say: "Can you show me God?" That is not the question of devotees. Devotees will say: "I may see or not see God, but if I can give Him service, then He will see me." Why shall I call God to see me, unnecessarily giving Him trouble? He is busy in so many ways, so why shall I divert His attention to see me? No. That is not what we do. Kṛṣṇa is giving me chance to serve Him, so let me serve Him sincerely, so that He will see me. He has His eyes everywhere, His hands, legs, everywhere. So if we do some service for Kṛṣṇa, He will see you, personally . . . (indistinct) . . . dadāmi buddhi*-yogaṁ taṁ (BG 10.10). *He will give intelligence how to come to Him. He is all*-pervading; everywhere He is present. And you can see Him also everywhere, if you develop such love for Him. So, give them some prasādam . Devotee: Thank you very much. (break) Devotee (3): In all of our decisions, when we have a meeting, if we don't know what to decide, we always say: "What would Prabhupāda think," or "What would Kṛṣṇa think?" And that's sometimes a . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Hitler one side, fought with the Britishers, smashed them. This is one cause. Another cause: Hitler helped Subhas Chandra Bose to organize I.N.A. Two causes, the Britishers to go away. Otherwise, Gandhi's noncooperation movement was started in 1917, and we got our independence in 1947. Indian man: Thirty years. Prabhupāda: Thirty years he could not do anything. And Subhas Chandra Bose in 1940 or '42, he went out of India and organized this I.N.A with the help of Hitler, and the Britishers were obliged to leave India. What do you think? That is my estimation. Indian man: Yes, I think so too. Yes, and he is also . . . Prabhupāda: And Hitler not only helped Subhas Chandra Bose to organize this I.N.A. organization, but by fighting with the Britishers, he smashed . . . the British lion was bandaged. There was a cartoon picture. I've seen in that way. The lion is lying down and bandaged, (makes some gestures) here and here and here, there, patched, British lion. (laughter) That's a fact. Indian man: Subhas Chandra Bose, he was in, I think he was . . . Prabhupāda: He was my college friend. We studied in the same college. Indian man: Is that right? Prabhupāda: He was one year senior to me. He appeared from the year 1919, I appeared in 1920. Indian man: Yes. And then he was in a plane crash? Or . . .? Prabhupāda: There is a great history. Indian man: Yes. I don't know if it is true. (break) . . . he has taken sannyāsa , and just gone out somewhere. Prabhupāda: So anyway, although you have got independence, India, oh, what is the profit? Hari-śauri: The independence is just about to come, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you start preaching there. (Trivikrama enters and pays obeisances) *Prabhupāda: The real sva*-raja is go back to home, back to Godhead. Trivikrama: Śrīla Prabhupāda, today I made arrangements for my tickets. I'll be leaving Saturday. So you're leaving Friday, so it's just nice. Prabhupāda: You're going to . . .? Trivikrama: Hong Kong first, make sure Dai Nippon gets printed nicely. Prabhupāda: They have got a press in Hong Kong? Trivikrama: Yes. At least an office. I'm not . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa said there was a press, but I'm not sure. Prabhupāda: (Hari-śauri is looking at something) What is this? Hari-śauri: It says here that this is possibly the very first newspaper article of your arrival in the West. This is, er, this was written at the time that you . . . the very first month you were there. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Butler. Trivikrama: It says you may stay for one month. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Hari-śauri: It says you have come for one month as a commissioner to preach bhakti*-yoga in the West. Prabhupāda: Called me "Ambassador." It is a very old article. Where you got it? Trivikrama: From one . . . Candanācārya had a copy. Prabhupāda: Oh. It was in Butler in 19 . . . Devotee: You were staying in the YMCA. *Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) So I did not say anything seriously, but perhaps he took it very seriously, Gopal's father. So he might have written to Gopal that, "Swami Bhaktivedanta wants to go to America. If you sponsor, then he can go." So whatever the correspondence was there between the father and son, I did not know. I simply asked him, "Why don't you ask your son Gopal to sponsor so that I can go there? I want to preach there." So after some months, three, four months, the No*-Objection Certificate from the Indian embassy in New York, Gopal sent to me, yes, that he had already sponsored my arrival there for one month. So all of a sudden I got the paper, No-Objection Certificate, by the Indian embassy. After so much inquiry, I learned that so much inquiry was done and so on, so on. Then I tried to take a passport and paper process. So I got the passport. Then I approached that Sumati Morarji. She once gave me five hundred rupees in exchange of my Bhāgavata book, so I approached her that, "Give me one ticket." They have got their shipping company, Scindia Navigation. So she said: "Swāmījī, you are so old, you are taking this so responsibility. Do you think it is right?" "No, it is all right." (laughs) At that time, I was seventy years old. So all the secretary, they thought that, "Swāmījī is going to die there." Anyway, they gave me the ticket, one return free ticket by their ship. Then arrangement was going on. So there is another process to get a P-form. You know. *Indian man: P*-form. *Prabhupāda: P*-form sanctioned by the state government, yes, state government. So it was applied for. It was . . . no sanction was coming. Then I went to the State Bank of India, the officer Mr. Bhattacari. So he told me: "Swāmījī, you are sponsored by private man, so we cannot accept it. If you are invited by some institution, then we could consider, but you are invited by a private man for one month, and, after one month, if you are in difficulty, and there will be so much obstacles and so on." "Well, I have already prepared everything to go." So I said that, "You . . . what you have done?" "No, I have decided not to sanction your P-form." "No, no, don't do this. You better send to your superior. It should not be done like that." So he took my request, and he sent the file to Chief Officer of Foreign Exchange, something like that. Anyway, he is the supreme man in the State Bank of India. So I went to see him. So I asked his secretary that, "You have got such file? You kindly put to Mr . . ."—his name was Mr. Rao—"I want to see him." So the secretary agreed, and he put the file and put my slip that I wanted to see him. I was waiting. So Mr. Rao came personally. He said: "Swāmījī, I have passed your case. Don't worry." (laughs) In this way. Hari-śauri: He knew you from before, or . . .? Prabhupāda: No. He did not know me. So somebody saw him in Bombay, so he reminded that, "I know Swāmījī when he went to USA." Somebody was telling me. Hari-śauri: He remembered. Prabhupāda: Hmm. The name is there, he remembered. After all, he is officer. He knows so many things. So it is a great history. (laughs) There was two days I was attacked in heart on the ship. So hardship. Trivikrama: Then you had a dream? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: What was that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That is . . . (laughs) The dream was I must come here. Hari-śauri: It was some instruction that you got? Prabhupāda: The dream was that Kṛṣṇa in His many forms was bowing the row . . . what is called? Hari-śauri: Rowing the boat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Trivikrama: Jaya . Prabhupāda: And when I arrived in Boston I wrote that poetry. Hari-śauri: If you were only sponsored for one month, how is it that you were able to extend your visa all the time? Prabhupāda: I was extending. The immigration officer came in Boston in my boat. He inquired about this. So he asked me, "Sir, Swāmījī, how long you want to stay?" So I thought that I have no shelter, I have no money, but I have got the return ticket. So I did not know how long I . . . (laughs) He asked me, "How long you want to stay?" So I thought, "In these circumstances, I can stay at most two months, because I have no means where to stay, how to eat, and where shall I go. So I may struggle for two months." So I told him, "I may stay at most two months." He immediately, two months, sanctioned immediately. I could not think that I shall be able to . . . (laughs) That one month were there, sponsoring. So I thought, "Another one month, that's all," that "This gentleman has sponsored for one month. So that is guaranteed. Then I can stay another one month. That's all." So after that, so I was staying here and there without any fixity. So I was extending the visa. Each time, I was paying ten dollars. Another three months, another three months, like that. And when one year was finished, they refused: "No extension." Hari-śauri: But by that time you had some kind of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: . . . organization going? Prabhupāda: Yes, hmm, at that time I was at Second Avenue. So then Raya Rāma took the help of a lawyer. He took the case, that he'll give me permanent residence. So he was extending only, and each time he was taking hundred and fifty dollars. So in this way, I entered in 1965, September, up to July—no, up to May—and in the May, month of May, there was heart stroke. Hari-śauri: That was when, '67? *Trivikrama: Sixty*-six. *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-six. Yes. '66. Yes, after one and a half year. Hari-śauri: No. That was '67 then. Prabhupāda: Because the time was taken, extension. Then, 1967, in July, I thought, "Now the health is broken." I was very sick after heart stroke. So I thought, "Now I shall not exist. So let me go to Vṛndāvana and die there." So I came back in July 1967. So this Brahmānanda and others, they were crying when I got on the boat. Hmm? The heart was so weak . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You went back to India by boat? Prabhupāda: No, by plane. I think . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From San Francisco. Prabhupāda: Hmm. At that time, I got some money. Five thousand was given by Jayānanda. He gave me five thousand, and Brahmānanda also gave me. So I spent some money for acquiring some . . . I had about six thousand. So then I purchased ticket coming back with Kīrtanānanda. In this way, came back to India. Hari-śauri: You were just saying . . . Prabhupāda: And again I paid five thousand rupees to Kīrtanānanda to come back. (aside) What is that? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Kirtirāja Prabhu bought this for your rocking chair. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Should I put it on? Prabhupāda: Rock and roll. (laughter) Hari-śauri: So when did you come back again? Prabhupāda: I came back in 1968, no, '67, December. Hari-śauri: Oh, you weren't gone long then. Trivikrama: Six months. Prabhupāda: Yes, July to December. Trivikrama: And your health was better? *Prabhupāda: Not very good. So many troubles. When I came back there's always a bad sound going on, gong*-gong-gong , in my brain. Very disturbing, in this Los Angeles. I was staying in some . . . I forgot. Trivikrama: La Cienega? Prabhupāda: Yes, huh? Trivikrama: In La Cienega? Prabhupāda: No, no, La Cienega, later on. I was staying near Pico. Is that Pico? There was a . . . I think Washington Boulevard? Near there. I forgot that quarter. It is black quarter. And this boy—who is he now? Aniruddha? What is his name? Devotee: Gurukṛpā? Prabhupāda: No, no. Aniruddha. Devotee: Gaurasundara? Prabhupāda: No, no. Aniruddha. Devotee: Oh, Aniruddha. Prabhupāda: Yes, he was taking care of me here in Los Angeles. And they used to come from San Francisco. First of all I came to San Francisco from India. Then I came to Los Angeles, to start a center here. I think Dayānanda took charge of this center. Devotee: I was at the Press building, and I saw a devotee had some stationery. Dayānanda was the . . . (indistinct) . . . and Gargamuni was the secretary. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: So Los Angeles center was opened on your arrival back from India. And up to that time there was New York and . . .? Prabhupāda: San Francisco. Devotee: And Montreal? Prabhupāda: No, Montreal later. I think, maybe, Montreal first. (end) Conversation A -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ". . . afraid of me, what kind of child? (laughs) Where you got so much strength?" And the answer here: "Prahlāda Mahārāja said: 'My dear King, the source of my strength, of which you are asking, is also the source of yours, by which you are challenging. Indeed, the original source of all kinds of strength is one. He is not only your strength or mine, but the only strength for everyone. Without Him, no one can get any strength, whether moving or not moving, superior or inferior. Everyone, including Lord Brahmā, is controlled by the strength of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.' " "All right, let me see how your strength is coming. Now I shall kill you. Come on. Let me see (laughs) how your God is coming to save you." This is atheism, challenging. And when He appeared, the Hiraṇyakaśipu became a fly (laughs) in front of . . . eh? Where is such language? Even there are many Sanskrit scholars now, they cannot produce such language. That is not possible. And five thousand years before, Vyāsadeva presented this unique language. *Rāmeśvara: This is the twentieth volume of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam now printed. Twentieth volume. Prabhupāda: Number twenty. *Rāmeśvara: Of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam series. Prabhupāda: Out of sixty. Still forty. Rāmeśvara: So you have already finished two more volumes at least. Prabhupāda: So, say . . . Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda says out of sixty volumes, twenty are already printed, and . . . Prabhupāda: Twenty already printed, and two or three ready for being printed. Hayagrīva: But this is the bulk of the cantos, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Rāmeśvara: No, Tenth Canto will be very long. Hayagrīva: The Tenth . . . *Prabhupāda: Tenth Canto will be like Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , fifteen volumes, Tenth Canto. Generally six chapters a volume, eh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Depending on the size. Prabhupāda: No, generally. So there are ninety chapters. That means minimum fifteen volumes, and maybe more. We have presented Kṛṣṇa book, just a summary study, not explained. But when it will be explained, with each and every śloka , purport, then it will be not less than fifteen volumes. Tenth Chapter is the face of the Lord. We have described the legs, hands, belly, that's all, and Tenth Chapter is the face, smiling face. Therefore we should not jump over the face all at once. It must go from the legs, gradually, and then face, then forehead, then hair. Eleventh, Twelfth, Twelfth Chapter, finished, the whole body of Kṛṣṇa. Hmm. So thank you very much. Devotees: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We'd like to put . . . we have got in some other copies, and we would like to put them on the altar tonight for sandhyā ārati . These two are your copies. Prabhupāda: Ah yes, take it. Rāmeśvara: But those two are for Your Divine Grace. We have others to show the Deities. Prabhupāda: All right. All right, do it. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, how you are keeping your health? Kīrtanānanda: Pretty good. Prabhupāda: That's . . . and things are going nice? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Devotees are all anxious for you, to see. Prabhupāda: Yes. And Hayagrīva Mahārāja is being forced? (laughs) Hayagrīva: You should cane me more, Śrīla Prabhupāda Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is very cunning. Hayagrīva: I know. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: (still laughing) One may try to leave Him, but He is not going to leave you. Once come, "No, sir, you cannot go out." Just like our Ajāmila. He was devotee in the beginning, and later on, by bad association of prostitute, he fell. But Kṛṣṇa took him at the end. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). Kṛṣṇa gave him chance to give him a son. He kept the son's name Nārāyaṇa. So on account of affection of the son, he was chanting, "Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa." Just Kṛṣṇa is so kind that (laughs) "All right, this rascal is going out of My hand. All right, give him a child, Nārāyaṇa. He will chant, 'Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa,' and that will be his credit." Ajñāta*-sukṛti. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate (CC Madhya 8.70). Sukṛti , pious activities, of many millions of birth is not equal to love of Godhead. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. Tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyaṁ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā-matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate (Padyavali 14): "Purchase Kṛṣṇa consciousness anywhere it is available." What is the price? Tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam : "Only greediness, hankering. That is the price." "Oh, that I have got." "No, no. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. You cannot obtain this price even after millions of births' pious activities." All right. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation A -- June 10, 1976, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: This is one . . . (indistinct) Baradrāj: No, just a sample. (pause) Baradrāj: The total height is forty inches. Kṛṣṇa is twenty and Kāliya is another twenty inches. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Baradrāj: So I think we could try casting it in bronze. Prabhupāda: Bronze. Bronze will not be polished? *Baradrāj: It is the American or the Western version of the aṣṭa*-dhātu . Prabhupāda: Oh, that is all right. *Baradrāj: Or, not aṣṭa*-dhātu , but bell metal. Prabhupāda: It will be polished? Baradrāj: Yes, you can polish very nicely. Kīrtanānanda: I've never seen bronze polished. Baradrāj: It depends on the quality, grade. Generally they don't use a very high percentage of brass. Kīrtanānanda: You think it's better than brass? Baradrāj: It's a little cheaper. Prabhupāda: Bronze is very good. Kīrtanānanda: I've never seen it polished. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: I've never seen it highly polished. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the problem. Why not make brass? Baradrāj: Out of brass? Bronze is harder. Bronze is harder. Prabhupāda: No, why harder? You can make softer. Metal . . . Kīrtanānanda: Gold is softer still. It will be much more brilliant, more beautiful in brass than bronze. Baradrāj: Generally . . . *Prabhupāda: Brass, just like our Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity in Māyāpur, how dazzling. Here also, in Boston. Baradrāj: I think Kṛṣṇa is German silver. Prabhupāda: No. Maybe. Baradrāj: Not so much brass casting going on in this country. Mostly bronze casting. Prabhupāda: Bronze, but it will not be polished. We want polished. Baradrāj: I have to investigate it. Prabhupāda: Bright face. *Hari-śauri: There's a boy that was in New York who cast some brass Gaura*-Nitāi Deities in Australia. They came out very nice. You could talk to him. He might give you some good information. His name is Bhāskara. Prabhupāda: Brass is best, next to gold or silver. *Baradrāj: But I think the other deities we shall just do in concrete, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and Lalitā, Viśākhā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Baradrāj: Either concrete or hard plaster. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Baradrāj: Hard plaster, tempered plaster, hydrostone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Baradrāj: They will pay for the casting in Fiji? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Baradrāj: The Indians in Fiji will pay for the casting if we decide to cast in brass here? Prabhupāda: Anyone will pay. (laughs) Kṛṣṇa will pay. What will be the cost, let me know. It will be paid by somebody. Baradrāj: I will have to investigate. Kīrtanānanda: You will have it cast or you will cast it? Baradrāj: We'll have it cast here. Actually, one boy is working with me now from Hawaii . . . Prabhupāda: But one thing, you can send one copy of this to Vṛndāvana to take casting cost there. They're also doing. Baradrāj: Estimate. Perhaps they'll be able to do it cheaper in India. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Baradrāj: They'll definitely be able to do it cheaper in India. Prabhupāda: Then if they can do cheaper, why not cast there? Baradrāj: The transport. Prabhupāda: Transport is the same. You have to transport from here, they will have to transport from . . . *Baradrāj: Hmm. Nanda*-kiśora, or someone else? Prabhupāda: You send to Akṣayānanda. Baradrāj: Akṣayānanda. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja said there is no necessity for endeavoring for economic development. Very difficult to understand this philosophy. Hari-śauri: People don't know how they'll survive if they don't get money. Prabhupāda: No. We are actual examples. We are not after economic development, but we are after following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. Nalinīkaṇṭha: People criticize us sometimes because they always see . . . Prabhupāda: No, what do we care for them? We go on with our own business. Baradrāj: Actually, they are all envious because they see that without working we are getting such nice facility. Prabhupāda: No, we are working, but working for Kṛṣṇa. Baradrāj: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is the difference. *Rādhā*-vallabha: I went to the bank the other day to take out some money for the Press, and I took out a few thousand dollars. I had to take it in small bills. And there were karmīs there, and they were yelling, "They should be thrown out of town!" Prabhupāda: They said? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes, they were very angry, because they don't make that much money in over two months. Prabhupāda: The Communists also, they are envious of these capitalists. Hari-śauri: The rich. "Make the rich pay," that's their slogan. *Rādhā*-vallabha: But the leaders of the Communists are rich. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: The leaders of the Communists are all rich, and the people don't notice. Hari-śauri: Andha , blind. Prabhupāda: That Russia, that, what is that, Communist leader? Nikolien? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Nikolien? Lenin? Breshnev? Hṛdayānanda: Kruschev? *Prabhupāda: Kruschev. Kruschev. He was making money, therefore he was driven out. His son*-in-law, his sons, were being employed, neopolism, what is called? Kīrtanānanda: Nepotism. Prabhupāda: Nepotism. That is human nature. Hari-śauri: They said he was becoming too friendly with the West, getting too many Western ideas. Prabhupāda: Who? Hari-śauri: Kruschev. So they kicked him out. (knock at the door) Prabhupāda: Yes? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Answer the door. Hari-śauri: In England, their whole difficulty with the labor . . . (door is opened) Prabhupāda: Let him in. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It's Govinda dāsī. Tell her to come in. Hari-śauri: But the union problem they have in England, that's why the whole country now is in disruption, because the labor is always on strike. They did a survey, and they found out that all the major union leaders are Communists. Prabhupāda: And they're making money. Hari-śauri: When I was there I remember every month there would be a major strike in the car industry, in the shipping industry. All the major industries there was always a major strike every . . . and it would completely devastate the economy. Hṛdayānanda: The foreign businesses no longer have confidence in England, because if they make some order maybe it will not be fulfilled. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hṛdayānanda: The foreign business no longer has confidence. I heard that England had sold military weapons to Israel, and when Israel was fighting the war they called England, "Immediately send replacements for the weapons." "No, I'm sorry, we are on strike, there's no . . . we cannot send replacements." So in this way there is no longer confidence in England for business, international business. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Now in South America it has become fashionable . . . there are many, many wealthy businessmen living there. So terrorists will kidnap a businessman and then send a letter to the company in the United States or in that country, stating that, "If you do not send us such and such million dollars, we will kill him." So in this way the terrorists are getting millions of dollars by kidnapping big men. Hṛdayānanda: Businessmen. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It's happening quite often in South America now. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's going on everywhere. There was a . . . John Paul Getty's nephew in Italy, he was taken by kidnappers, and they petitioned Getty, "Give us so many millions of dollars, otherwise we'll kill your nephew." So he refused. So after a long, long time the nephew was returned somehow or other, and one of the times when they demanded a ransom, they chopped off his right ear and put it in an envelope and sent it through the post, "This is proof that we have your nephew. Now give us money." And still he refused. And then eventually the boy was returned, minus his ear. Hṛdayānanda: As you were saying, you were just saying Prabhupāda, that even when they have so much money they want more. This man is one of the richest men in the world, and for his own family member he would not pay some money to save him. Prabhupāda: Who is that man? Hari-śauri: Getty. He just died. Hṛdayānanda: Just a few days ago he died. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In England. One of the richest men in the world. Hṛdayānanda: Two of the richest Americans have just died. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Howard Hughes. Howard Hughes was considered the richest man in the country, and they found him dying in a hotel room of malnutrition. Hṛdayānanda: He had become so afraid of death that he would wear a mask over his face to avoid germs, and he would be changing his clothes constantly, and he was living terrified of dying and losing his money. So in this way, in his last several years he became mad, just with fear that he was going to die. (pause) Prabhupāda: What is your next publication? Hṛdayānanda: Mine? Prabhupāda: Portuguese and Spanish? *Hṛdayānanda: In a few days we will be sending to the printer a complete Portuguese Bhagavad*-gītā and Spanish Kṛṣṇa Book . I think within one week perhaps we will have. After one or two weeks, we will send both to the printer. Prabhupāda: Where is the editorial department? Hṛdayānanda: Here. That's why I'm here. For Spanish and also Portuguese. I just received information that in Caracas they were selling every day one thousand Bhāgavatams . Devotees: Wow! Prabhupāda: What is the price? Hṛdayānanda: Each book about two and a half dollars. Prabhupāda: That means about three thousand dollars daily? *Rādhā*-vallabha: That's very big. Hṛdayānanda: And they have been defeated by Mexico. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Mexico is selling more? *Hṛdayānanda: Yes. This month . . . last month in Mexico they sent in for the month $23,000, for a month. Now the . . . all of South America combined this month has almost defeated Rādhā*-Dāmodara. (Prabhupāda laughs) Almost on the same level now, South America. Prabhupāda: (chuckling) This competition must go on. (laughter) That is tangible. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: That is a fulfil . . . (break) (end) Conversation with Congressman Jackie Vaughn -- June 12, 1976, Detroit (Jackie Vaughn - Black Congressman) Lekhaśravantī (Walter Reuther's daughter): This is Jackie Vaughn. He's a member of the House of Representatives of Michigan. He's come to speak to you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Lekhaśravantī: He came also last year. He's very impressed by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is black, and we worship Him. (laughter) You have seen our Deity? Yes. Kṛṣṇa is from your community. (Prabhupāda laughs) There is no question of black and white. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above the skin—the soul which is there. Either he's black or white or yellow, it doesn't matter. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). This is the first education, that do not take the body, but the living force within the body. That is important; we have to understand that. We are talking from that platform. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult, because people are very much absorbed with bodily concept of life. But our philosophy begins from that platform where there is no more bodily concept of life. Therefore it is little difficult. (pause) Prabhupāda: So any question also? Śrutakīrti: You've been reading from Prabhupāda's books? Jackie Vaughn: Yes. I continue to search. Śrutakīrti: If you have any questions, you can ask him. Jackie Vaughn: The last time I was here you were kind enough to address to the basic point—we're in the world, and yet how can we not be a part of the world. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: He says we're in the world, but how can we be aloof from it? How can we not be a part of it? Prabhupāda: It is knowledge. Just like we are moving with this body, but still we know perfectly well that we are not this body. Just like you may move in your car, but you are perfectly aware that you are not the car. When you drive on your car, do you not know that you are not the car, car is different from you? Huh? Don't you know that? Jackie Vaughn: Right. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, by cultivation of knowledge one can remain in the car and still he can know that he is not the car. The example is given: just like coconut. Coconut, within the shell, green shell, there is coconut. And when it is dry, if you move you'll understand that the coconut is now separate—(makes sound) cut*-cut-cut-cut. At that time it is taken away for extracting oil. So this is practical. In the beginning, green coconut, nobody can perceive that there is coconut within the shell and it can be separated. But at a time it can be known that the coconut is separated from the shell, and if you move it, it will make cut-cut-cut. That is the process. It is by action. When after hearing theoretical that you are separate from this body, if you cultivate that knowledge, then time will come when you'll perceive practically that we are not this body. That means in higher stage of spiritual consciousness the bodily activities, material bodily activities, will stop. Only Kṛṣṇa activities will go on. So that just like the coconut fruit is separate from the shell, similarly, even living within this body he will be separated from the body. Jīvan mukta sa ucyate. The Sanskrit word is he's liberated even in this life, while living in this body. That requires cultivation of the knowledge and practical activities. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not all of a sudden, but there is stage when it will be experienced that he is not this body, he is separate from the body. Jackie Vaughn: My work, I try to do more for people, especially poor people. Prabhupāda: Everyone tries. That is not a particular job for you. Everyone is trying; the cats and dogs, they are also trying. The cat also very much anxious to give protection to the cubs, innocent, helpless. The dog also giving. The birds, they're bringing food for the offspring, and as soon as the mother comes, they become very much engladdened, "Oh, here is food, here is food." And they, with the mouth, they . . . so this kind of sentiment is there even in the cats, dogs, animals, birds, beasts. That is natural. But we do not know how to do actual welfare activity. Somebody's engaged with his family. Somebody is engaged with his own body. Somebody . . . this is only development of consciousness. The animal, they are interested with the body, himself. The human being, they are interested with the extension of the body. Just like I am alone now. Now when I become, you young men, then I have got my wife, then my interest is also for my wife. The wife's interest is for the husband. In this way, children; *then interest extended: husband, wife, children. Then, this is family*-wise. Then little advancement, for the society. Little advancement, community. Just like in your country, the sense of black community, white community. Then, above that, for the nation. When there is war between America and other nation, then you black and white people forget the small interest for national interest. You advance to fight, to lay down your life. So in this way we can make progress, but such progress is not perfection. Such progress is not perfection. The example is given, just like there is tree, and the whole tree is full of branches, twigs and leaves and flowers and fruits. So somebody is watering the fruit, somebody is watering the leaf, somebody is watering the branches, somebody the twigs, but everyone is improper. One who is watering the root, he's perfect. He knows how to do things. If you water the root of the tree, it will go to the twigs, it will go to the leaves, it will go to the fruit, it will go to the flower. One who does not know the root, however he might be working very diligently for the poor humanity or community or society, they will never be successful to gain the result—peace and prosperity. They are forgetting the root. And root is God. So they must put water into the root. Then it will be all right. Otherwise, it will be all failure. The history of the world is like that. They are trying for the nation, for the society, for the community and for the family, but everything has become unsuccessful. Jackie Vaughn: I suppose we could use the same analogy for black and white getting together. Ofttimes, we all become impatient because of the progress appears to be so very, very slow. Prabhupāda: Slow, but sure, that is wanted. If you are slow, it is not bad, but it must be sure. But if you become very busy without any surety, then what is this? Simply waste of time. Slow . . . there is English word, "Slow but sure." Jackie Vaughn: Slow but sure. Prabhupāda: Sure. So what we are proposing, that is sure success. And all other things, they are very busy but no success. This is the difference. So what is the use of that business if you are going to be failure? So we see from the history these attempts have always been failure. Now this man who constructed this house, he never thought that I shall come here to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So his attempt is failure. Jackie Vaughn: Neither did he envision I would come here to hear you. Prabhupāda: (laughs) So these small affairs, they'll be failure. Whatever they are busy now in the material world, everything will be failure. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if you execute a little bit of it, it can save you from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. (to devotee) Find out this verse. Devotee: 2.40. Hari-śauri: "In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear." Prabhupāda: Purport. Hari-śauri: Purport: "Activity in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or acting for the benefit of Kṛṣṇa without expectation of sense gratification, is the highest transcendental quality of work. Even a small beginning of such activity finds no impediment, nor can that small beginning be lost at any stage. Any work begun on the material plane has to be completed, otherwise the whole attempt becomes a failure. But any work begun in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has a permanent effect, even though not finished. The performer of such work is therefore not at a loss even if his work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is incomplete. One percent done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness bears permanent results, so that the next beginning is from the point of two percent; *whereas, in material activity, without one*-hundred-percent success, there is no profit. Ajāmila performed his duty in some percentage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but the result he enjoyed at the end was one hundred percent, by the grace of the Lord. There is a nice verse in this connection in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: 'If someone gives up sense-gratificatory pursuits and works in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part? And, what gain if one performs his material activities perfectly?' (SB 1.5.17) Or, as the Christians say, 'What profiteth a man if he gains the whole world yet suffers the loss of his eternal soul?' Material activities and their results end with the body. But work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness carries the person again to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even after the loss of the body. At least one is sure to have a chance in the next life of being born again as a human being, either in the family of a great cultured brāhmaṇa or in a rich aristocratic family, that will give one a further chance for elevation. That is the unique quality of work done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Prabhupāda: So everyone should join this movement and be sure of his activity, result, good result. That is real United Nation—to work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Every, any department, if we work for Kṛṣṇa, then it is perfect. That is sure. And it is open to everyone. Now this American government is giving so much welfare contribution, but still they are not happy. Hmm? Huge amount is spent in welfare activities, but still they are dissatisfied. Then how you can make them satisfied? The American government is practically giving money to the sufferers, and why they are still suffering? What is the answer? Jackie Vaughn: It's not clear. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda is saying that even though the American government is giving so much money to suffering people, still the suffering is there, there's no improvement in the condition. So why? What is the cause? What is the answer? Jackie Vaughn: I think it's all in the theory. We are not making first things first. Prabhupāda: That means whatever we do, we do in ignorance. You do not know what is the first thing or what to do first. That we are correcting. Here is the first thing: pour water in the root. Jackie Vaughn: Right. Prabhupāda: We are correcting—Kṛṣṇa, or God, then everything will be all right. Otherwise failure. Now you American people, you write, "In God We Trust." Huh? But if I ask you "What is God?" you cannot reply. Then how do you trust in God? Blindly. If we trust in God, we must know that God is actually the only trustworthy person. Then if I put my trust in Him, that is sensible. But if I do not know what is God, no idea, and if we simply write, "In God We Trust," what is this? This is slogan. But actually people are becoming godless. In school, colleges, they are prohibiting, "Don't talk of God." Do they not? Jayatīrtha: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. And in the bills they are writing the . . . why this hypocrisy? Why this hypocrisy? In the school, colleges, you are forbidding, "Don't talk of God," and on the bills you are writing, "In God We Trust." That means if the bill is not paid, don't be dissatisfied; you trust in God. (laughs) Although I'm giving you a piece of paper, don't hesitate to take it. Trust in God, it will be paid. They write, "I promise to pay," but people may not have faith in this word. Actually, I'm paying you hundred rupees or a thousand rupees' worth currency note, but actually it is paper. But only on faith and trust I'm accepting it, it is one thousand dollars. That much. In last war, the Germany, marks note were thrown in the street. And the bunch of note, taken to the confectioner, "Give me a piece of bread," there is no bread; they throw away. It happened, actually. So these notes are accepted on the understanding that the government will pay. But time may be there when government may be not able to pay. And it has become practically experienced in the last war. So everything should be done scientifically. If we say that in God we trust, then we must know what is God, whether actually we can put our faith and trust in Him, whether He is trustworthy, what is that God. This science should be introduced. There is a science; we are preaching that science. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to teach Kṛṣṇa science, science of Kṛṣṇa, science of God. So the government should take up, American government, and cooperate with us, teach the people the science of God. Then it will be a great, benevolent welfare activity. Simply giving their money to the poor, to the needy, will not help them. Jackie Vaughn: That's an immediate need, and . . . Prabhupāda: Immediate, you can think like that, but there is no benefit, immediate or belated. There is no actual benefit. The unmarried girls are given this welfare . . . what is called? Jackie Vaughn: Welfare check. Prabhupāda: But still they are killing their children, becoming more and more involved in sinful activities. Jackie Vaughn: As a lawmaker, I'd like to change that whole, what we call, vicious cycle. *Prabhupāda: You can change, but if you do not change for the real good, then time will come, another change, another change. That is going on. Just like in Russia they wanted to change. They brought in revolution. But what is changed? They are still begging grains from America. So what is the use of that change? If you have to beg from other country for your food, then what is the benefit of such change? So this is going on: one thing established, and again it is changed. That is described in the śāstra: punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Chewing the chewed. Just like sugarcane. One has taken the juice by chewing and thrown it in the street, and somebody again takes it and chew it, what he will get it? It is already chewed. Experiment. So all, everything has been experimented. Big, big empires, big, big society, big, big nation. That Hitler, he wanted to make something big. Napoleon wanted to make something big. Nothing big has been done. Where is Napoleon? Where is Hitler? So these are all temporary attempts. It is sure to be failure. Because they do not know how to do things. That is the defect. They are simply imagining, concoction. Here is a practical and sure proposal in the Bhagavad-gītā. God comes, and He's giving personal instruction, that "Do things like this." Your economic problem, your political problem, your social problem, everything, you ask any question, any problem, the answer is there, perfect. All problems. So why people should not take this perfect answer to all problems? That is intelligence. Experiment we have made so many, materially. They have all failed. We were under British rule. So where is that British rule now? And before that, there was Roman Empire, Carthagian Empire, Egyptian Empire—so many—Mogul Empire, then British Empire, now your American Empire. But these things will not help. Jackie Vaughn: Every one of our presidential candidates is continuing to talk in the same vein, promising and promising all of a temporary nature of solution to our problems. Prabhupāda: No. Solution is here, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You take this movement after studying it scrutinizingly. You'll find, "Yes, this is the only movement for solution of all problems." Jackie Vaughn: I think we go back to what you said at the beginning: we trust primarily in the dollar, "In God We Trust." Prabhupāda: That is only slogan . . . Jackie Vaughn: Yeah, right. Prabhupāda: . . . but if we trust somebody when we know, "Yes, he is trustworthy," that is better. Blindly trusting may not endure. But knowingly trust, that will be beneficial. Jackie Vaughn: As a lawmaker for the State of Michigan, every day I'm struggling. I know what you're saying. I would like to. And then my surrounding is what they call much more practical. Prabhupāda: No, it is also practical. We do not propose anything which is impractical. Jackie Vaughn: But it's so . . . Prabhupāda: What do you think in our movement is impractical? I have given you a practical example, that you are paying so much money to the suffering women, especially who have got children but no husband. So, but what is the result? They're not satisfied. They're still committing sinful activity. So the money, giving money, we're giving, is no solution. That is practical. And here, the same girl, I do not give any money, but by Kṛṣṇa consciousness they're satisfied. It is practical. So therefore people should be enlightened with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then problems will be solved. Otherwise, immediately you give him some money, that money will be spent and no satisfaction. This is failure. Our monetary problem . . . actually, we have no monetary problem. Kṛṣṇa has given us money. Our expenditure is more than, I think, two hundred thousand dollars daily. Hmm? What is our total expenditure, can anyone say? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, with all the construction, perhaps it's very high. *Prabhupāda: But we are getting money. We have no money, but still we can sit down in such a nice palace. This is practical. So money is not problem. The problem is godlessness. So as soon as there is godlessness, there will be suffering, different types of suffering. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā: Problem—māyā is problem. Hari-śauri: "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Hari-śauri: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead has innumerable energies, and all of these energies are divine. Although the living entities are part of His energies, and are therefore divine, due to contact with material energy their original superior power is covered. Being thus covered by material energy, one cannot possibly overcome its influence. As previously stated, both the material and spiritual natures, being emanations from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are eternal. The living entities belong to the eternal superior nature of the Lord, but due to contamination by the inferior nature, matter, their illusion is also eternal. The conditioned soul is therefore called nitya*-baddha, or eternally conditioned. No one can trace out the history of his becoming conditioned at a certain date in material history. Consequently, his release from the clutches of material nature is very difficult, even though that material nature is an inferior energy, because material energy is ultimately conducted by the Supreme Will, which the living entity cannot overcome. Inferior material nature is defined herein as divine nature due to its divine connection and movement by the divine will. Being conducted by the divine will, material nature, although inferior, acts so wonderfully in the construction and destruction of the cosmic manifestation that the Vedas confirm this as follows: māyāṁ tu prakṛtiṁ vidyān māyinaṁ tu maheśvaram (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 4.10). Although māyā is false and temporary, the background of māyā is the supreme magician, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is Maheśvara, the supreme controller. "Another meaning of guṇa is 'rope.' It is to be understood that the conditioned soul is tightly bound by the ropes of illusion. A man bound by the hands and feet cannot free himself. He must be helped by a person who is unbound, because the bound cannot help the bound; the rescuer must be liberated. Therefore only Lord Kṛṣṇa or His bona fide representative the spiritual master can release the conditioned soul. Without such superior help, one cannot be freed from the bondage of material nature. Devotional service, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can help one gain such release. Kṛṣṇa, being the Lord of the illusory energy, can order this insurmountable energy to release the conditioned soul. He orders this release out of His causeless mercy on the surrendered soul and out of His paternal affection for the living entity, who is originally a beloved son of the Lord. Therefore surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord is the only means to get free from the clutches of the stringent material nature. *"The words mām eva are also significant. Mām means unto Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, only, and not Brahmā or Śiva. Although Brahmā and Śiva are greatly elevated and are almost on the level of Viṣṇu, it is not possible for such incarnations of rajo*-guṇa (passion) and tamo-guṇa (ignorance) to release the conditioned soul from the clutches of māyā. In other words, both Brahmā and Śiva are also under the influence of māyā. Only Viṣṇu is the master of māyā. Therefore He alone can give release to the conditioned soul. The Vedas confirm this in the phrase tvam eva viditvā, or 'Freedom is possible only by understanding Kṛṣṇa.' Even Lord Śiva affirms that liberation can be achieved only by the mercy of Viṣṇu. Lord Śiva says, mukti-pradātā sarveṣāṁ viṣṇur eva na saṁśayaḥ: 'There is no doubt that Viṣṇu is the deliverer of liberation for everyone.' " Prabhupāda: Let start some . . . the institution is already there. We are conducting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if the government cooperates that a certain number of students must be trained up scientifically what is the meaning of God, that will be very much beneficial to the state or to the country. We can give solution for any problem. "We" means Kṛṣṇa. We are simply preaching Kṛṣṇa's message. Kṛṣṇa means God. Kṛṣṇa means "black" also. Kṛṣṇa, this word, (chuckles) means "black" also. You are following? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another meaning of kṛṣṇa is blackish. Jackie Vaughn: Black is beautiful? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said, "Black is beautiful?" *Prabhupāda: Why not? He's the most beautiful. Otherwise, why people are attracted? There is a verse in Brahma*-saṁhitā: kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobham; *barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda*-sundarāṅgam (BS 5.30). He has got one peacock feather on His head, and He's blackish, but wonderfully beautiful. These words are used. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya. He's so beautiful that thousands of Cupids cannot be compared with His beauty. Cupid is understood to be the most beautiful person within this universe. You know Cupid? Yes. He enchants by beauty. But Kṛṣṇa's beauty is so great that millions of beauty, kandarpa, or Cupid, cannot be compared with Him. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi (BS 5.30). It is a question of attraction. It is not a question of black and white. Attraction. So unless Kṛṣṇa is beautiful, why He has got so many millions of devotees? This very word is kandarpa-koṭi. Barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam. His blackness is compared with the black cloud. Asita-ambuda. Ambuda means the cloud. The black cloud is full of water. When there is black cloud in the sky, you can be sure that the rain is going to fall down. Not the white cloud. White cloud means no water. Is it not? (chuckles) *So you understand this philosophy and add water to the suffering humanity. They are suffering in the burning, blazing fire of material existence. So blazing fire can be extinguished when the water falls from the sky, not by your fire brigade. When there is blazing fire in the forest, it is beyond your control. You cannot get there fire brigade. So these small attempts of fire brigade is useless to extinguish the blazing fire of this material existence. The water must come from the cloud. That is by Kṛṣṇa's grace. You have no control over the cloud. But that water wanted. Not your fire brigade water, when there is all around blazing fire. The small fire brigade—(imitates bell) dung*-dung-dung-dung-dung. It can vibrate very loudly—dung-dung-dung—"I'm going to, going to," but they'll go when everything finished. That is practical. I have seen in India. There was a fire in a house, and they came late, when the business is finished. And still they're insisting, "We shall pour some water." (laughter) Everyone asked them that "What is the use of?" "No, this is our system." (laughter) The house is burnt into ashes, and they are looking the formality, "Yes, we must put some water," so that they can write in their books, "Here we attended the fire and we have . . ." (laughter) This cheating is going on. In every problem, this kind of cheating is going on. Official, that's all. The same example: you ask to the charity-taker of welfare activities. The fire is going on, but officially the government satisfied, "Yes, we are after all pouring water." So what is the use of pouring water if the fire is going on? But officially, that's all. We must see that the purpose is being carried. No. The house is burnt into ashes, but we are satisfied that our fire brigade man has poured some water, that's all. They do not know that they cannot do any benefit to anyone by this imperfect process. If the whole money of the government is given to us, we can show result within six months how it is beneficial. Will the government give us money? (pause) Prabhupāda: Actually, people do not want to trust in God. That is the real fact. But this writing of slogan is a formal . . . (indistinct) . . . at the present moment, nobody has got any idea of God nor faith in God. What do you think? Hari-śauri: Nobody's got any . . .? Prabhupāda: Idea of God, and what to speak of faith in God, or trust in God. Jackie Vaughn: It's true. Very little faith. "In God We Trust," no. Your original statement. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda wrote one letter to the secretary of the President explaining that "You write on your bills 'In God We Trust,' but who is it that knows about God?" So he was asking if it was possible for the government, they could give us some aid and we would educate. We can educate the people. Prabhupāda: No, I did not ask for any aid. Hari-śauri: Oh. If they would . . . Prabhupāda: You can get the copy. I never asked for any aid. Hari-śauri: No, I didn't mean monetary or anything like that. (pause) (Hari-śauri goes to get letter) Prabhupāda: Read it. *Mādhavānanda: "Personal Secretary to the President, Office of the President of the United States, White House, Washington, D.C. Dear Sir: On your new two*-dollar note it is stated 'In God We Trust,' and directly beneath, 'Declaration of Independence, 1776.' On the two-hundredth anniversary of this occasion, why not begin teaching the science of God as described in the Vedic literatures, like the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is authorized and appreciated by all learned professors in the universities throughout the whole world? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on since 1966 throughout the whole world, especially in the United States of America. It is a great fortune for the American people that they trust in God. Why shouldn't this spiritual education be given to the American people in an organized way? The whole world is going down and becoming godless. If the American people, who trust in God constitutionally, take this movement seriously, it will be a great service to the human society. We are prepared to cooperate in this connection if the American government takes it very seriously. Awaiting your reply with interest. Yours sincerely, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami." Dated May 9th. Jackie Vaughn: Any answer? Mādhavānanda: No reply. Hari-śauri: That was three weeks back. Mādhavānanda: Four weeks; over a month. Hari-śauri: May 19th? Mādhavānanda: May 9th. Hari-śauri: Oh. (pause) Prabhupāda: Why they have not replied? Jackie Vaughn: I suppose you were asking too much. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Too much? So am I wrong? Jackie Vaughn: No, not at all. Prabhupāda: I'm not asking for money. Jackie Vaughn: I know. But you are doing away with our approach to dealing with problems. As you pointed out so well, it's always piecemeal, of a temporary nature. I do it in Lansing. We have a problem, we patch it up, of a temporary nature. We talk to do this, as a quick answer, solution, and we go away feeling better, that we have at least made, as we say, a step in the right direction. Next year, we'll be back with the same problem. I have this problem. Prabhupāda: Everyone. Jackie Vaughn: Everyone. Monday I'll go back to the State Capitol . . . *Prabhupāda: That is explained, daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). We think, "Now this problem is solved," but actually it is not solved; *it has created another problem. Therefore this word is used, daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā. You . . . the problems are so great that you cannot solve it. Jackie Vaughn: Each year it mounts. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jackie Vaughn: It's getting larger and larger, almost impossible to solve. Prabhupāda: Exactly, yes. Jackie Vaughn: Each year we say, "This year is worse than any year in the history." Prabhupāda: See, this is the experienced government officer's statement. Therefore the word is used, duratyayā. What is the meaning of duratyayā? Hari-śauri: "Very difficult to overcome." Jackie Vaughn: I submit, I contribute to that delinquency. I help every day, trying to find answers, always of a temporary nature. Prabhupāda: So you kindly give little attention to this movement. It will solve all the problems. You have read some of our books? No. Jackie Vaughn: Yes. *Prabhupāda: We have all answers to the problems in the Bhagavad*-gītā, but who is hearing us? The problems and the solutions, they are all mentioned. They are given very nicely. But we do not take it. We create our own solution, imperfect solution. Jackie Vaughn: I'm struggling. Prabhupāda: Everyone is struggling. Just like you pour water on the leaf of the tree, and still it will fall down. He's perplexed, that "I am giving water to the leaf every day. How it is that it is dying?" But he never thinks that "I have not done properly; therefore the leaf is dying." He does not know what is the proper way. So things, if they are not done properly, it will not produce the desired result. That is going on. (pause) Prabhupāda: (very loud kīrtana in background) You have seen our Deities? Our Deity, Kṛṣṇa? Hari-śauri: Have you seen the Deities in the temple? Jackie Vaughn: Yes. I am very fortunate. Twice I've been before you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Oh, that's nice. Jackie Vaughn: I'm very grateful. Prabhupāda: Whenever you find time, please come. Jackie Vaughn: I will. Prabhupāda: Yes. You'll get so many inspiration. (pause) Prabhupāda: The pathways in the garden, if they are occasionally washed, as far as possible, grow . . . (break) *Mādhavānanda: . . . yātrā. Today is celebration of snāna*-yātrā, so . . . (break) Hari-śauri: July 18th. *Mādhavānanda: Today is snāna*-yātrā, disappearance of Mukunda Datta and Śrīdhara Paṇḍita and full moon. Tomorrow is disappearance of Śyāmānanda Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) Conversation -- June 13, 1976, Detroit (Conversation with Mother and Sons) Mādhavānanda: Have you read the other cantos also? You read all the way up to the Fifth Canto? Mother: I read so much, you know, and I have four children . . . (indistinct) . . . doesn't live at home—and I read so much that people probably wonder how I get my work done. But it gets done. (Prabhupāda chuckles) And it's like I'm in another world. It's really great. I had a dream about you, Prabhupāda. And I dreamed . . . this is a dream that's coming true. But you didn't acknowledge me because I didn't say "Kṛṣṇa." (Prabhupāda laughs) And then when I did, then you did, and you asked me what I knew about Kṛṣṇa, and I didn't answer you because I didn't want to display my ignorance. Prabhupāda: Very good. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and be one of our members. Your son is also very good. Mother good, son good. According to our Indian estimate, son acquires the quality of mother and the daughter acquires the quality of the father. Mother: I didn't understand. Pradyumna: You didn't understand? The son acquires the quality of the mother and the daughter acquires the quality of the father. So like mother, like son. Mother: When . . . (indistinct) . . . was living in the temple, I didn't tell Kim this, but he looked ten years younger than he does right now, so . . . Mādhavānanda: When he was living in the temple he looked ten years younger. I was thinking he should live in the temple again. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. One clergyman, he asked me, "Swāmījī, why your disciples look so bright?" So that's a fact. Mother: All the devotees. Prabhupāda: Because they are spiritually enlightened. That is the cause of brightness. And materially involved—moroseness. Because it is ignorance. Material life means life of ignorance, and spiritual life means life of enlightenment. That is the difference. Material life is called tama. Tama means darkness. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya . This is the Vedic mantra . "Don't remain in darkness." But people cannot understand that, "I am living in the light. Why I'm darkness?" So darkness means without any spiritual enlightenment. That is darkness. So the Vedic injunction is "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light." The light is my spiritual life, and material life means darkness. Because he does not know what is going to happen next. You are under the laws of material nature. The nature will act according to the association you make, exactly. You do not know that you are infecting some contagious disease. You may not know it, but it will act. In due course of time, you'll develop that disease and suffer. Similarly, without knowledge, in ignorance, imperceptibly we are associating with a certain law of nature, and we shall be victimized. We may not know it, but we shall be victimized. That is the life of ignorance. A child does not know that if he touches the fire it will burn and it will cause some disease, some sore. He does not know. But he, somehow or other, if he touches fire, these things will come. This is the life of ignorance. You do something, you do not know what is the effect. But the effect will come, and you'll have to suffer. You know or not know, it doesn't matter. That is ignorance. Life of darkness. The Christian theologicians, they say that, "Why shall I suffer for my . . .?" They do not believe in the karma , fruitive activity. But that means ignorance. They have no sufficient knowledge. Karma is there and effect is there, but they do not know it. Poor fund of knowledge. Therefore it is failing. They have failed, these Christian priest, to explain everything philosophically. *So advanced Westerners, they are now educated in science philosophy, they are not attracted with these dogmatic views. So to remain in ignorance is animal life. To be enlightened is human life. And the topmost enlightenment is to understand God and to love Him. That is topmost enlightenment. Unfortunately, there is no education to know what is God, and what to speak of loving Him. This is modern civilization—ignorance. A civilization of ignorance. They do not know what is what. Simply speculating, wasting time, talking all nonsense. This is going on in the name of education. But actually they are in ignorance. They do not know what is what. They are reading so many philosophical speculation, horrible condition of the so*-called philosopher, scientist. Simply "I believe," "In this believe, that believe." You believe . . . I believe something. That is your . . . (indistinct) . . . your belief is not final. That is creating chaotic condition. You believe some way, I believe something, he believes something. What is the profit? Chaos. *So all these philosophers, scientists, they believe, "I believe," as if his belief will be a doctrine. Why he believes like that? People also accept like that. Nobody questions that a person says: "I believe," that means he is not in perfect knowledge. But in Vedic śāstra , there is no question of belief. This is the fact. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). It never says that, "I believe there are so many aquatics." No. Clear declaration, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi : there are nine hundred thousand different forms of life in the water. Bās . This is Vedic knowledge. It never says: "I believe." What is the meaning of belief? You must know definitely and declare it. That is Vedic knowledge. Speculation is not allowed. Truth must be declared as it is. (aside) That Bengali woman wanted to see me? Mrs. Dasgupta. Mādhavānanda: I sent someone to find her. Prabhupāda: So here is definitive knowledge in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There's no question "I believe" or "You believe." No. What you are, your belief? You may believe wrongly. You are not perfect. They do not accept this, that every one of the conditioned souls is imperfect, with four defects: illusion, committing mistake, cheating and imperfectness of senses. Who will say it is not? It is. If you have got imperfect senses, then what is the use of your belief? If the child says, "Oh, there is no father. I have never seen my father," does it mean there is no father? Because you are child, because you have got mother, there must be father, you believe or not believe. So these rascals say, "I don't believe in God." Why? As it is inevitable—the mother is there, the child is there—there must be father. You may not know him, but you can know him through your mother. But must be father. There is no question of "I don't believe there is father." No, that cannot be . . . (indistinct) . . . it is like that, everything fact. No question of belief. You believe or not believe, there is father. Similarly, these rascals nowadays, they say: "We don't believe in God." So you believe or not believe, God is there. Who cares for your believe or not believe? The same way: the mother is there, the child is there—there must be father. There is no argument. Is it not? Can anyone say: "Yes, my mother is there, I am there; *I don't believe there is father"? Is it feasible? No. Common sense. So these rascals who do not believe in God, they're simply rascals. Mūḍha, narādhama , that is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Anyone who has no understanding of God, he's lowest of the mankind and rascal number one. Hmm? What do you think? Satsvarūpa: Sometimes there's a question that I'm asked, that we say we're imperfect so we have to receive perfect knowledge. But they say if you're always imperfect, then how can you know that it's perfect, what you're hearing? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Just like a child does not believe. A boy, he has not seen his father. He does not believe that there is father. But if the mother says: "Yes, my dear child, there is father," so then his knowledge is perfect. With his imperfect knowledge, he was disbelieving that there is father, but when the mother says, he has to accept it. Then his knowledge becomes perfect. He has not seen who is father. That's a fact, maybe. And . . . but the mother is authority. She says: "Here, my dear child. There is father." Then his knowledge his perfect. So we may be imperfect, the child is imperfect, but when he gets the knowledge from the perfect source, mother, then it is perfect. Similarly, we, we never say that we are perfect. If you are perfect, then why you are learning? We are trying to become perfect. So our process is that we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Therefore whatever we say, it is perfect. A child does not know, "What is this, father?" The father says: "My dear child, it is called microphone." So after that, if he takes it and declares to anyone, "This is microphone," that is perfect, although he's a child—because he's learned it from the perfect father. This is our process. We don't speculate. We don't speculate whether there is father or not. That is not our process. We ask from the mother, "Mother, they say I have got father. I have never seen." So mother says: "Yes, my dear child, you have got a father." Then finish. Knowledge is perfect. And the child cannot challenge, "I have never seen my father. How can I believe you?" This is nonsense. Your mother says, that is fact. That's all. Finished. You cannot challenge mother: "Mother, I have never seen my father. How can I believe?" That is nonsense! This is going on. "I have never seen God. Can you show me God?" This rascaldom is going on . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all you must know you are rascal. How can you see God? You hear from the authority who knows God. That is the injunction. *You have to approach tattva*-darśī , who has seen God through spiritual eyes. *So one has to approach such a person who actually knows God, seen God, and approach him, praṇipātena . Not like that childish challenge. By surrender: praṇipātena . Then question. First of all surrender. Praṇipātena, paripraśnena . Not by challenging. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore one has to go to guru , where there is no challenge. There is no question of challenging. You can make question. That is another thing. But not challenge. Then you'll be deceived. Therefore first condition is praṇipātena . Without praṇipāta , you cannot make advancement. *So this philosophy, our philosophy . . . our or anyone's philosophy. Philosophy is not for our or yours. Philosophy is philosophy. That is a science. Philosophy is the science of sciences. That is the description of philosophy. In our college days we were philosophy student of Professor, Dr. W. S. Urquhart. He defined that, "Philosophy is the science of sciences." There are different departments of scientific knowledge. When they are taken together, the original science is philosophy. Philosophy is the science. Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam etad jñānam. Tad ajñānaṁ yad anyathā. Is it not stated in the Bhagavad-gītā ? Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. To know the Absolute Truth, that is philosophy. So the simple philosophy is there in the Bhagavad-gītā , that: *To understand God, a simple method. Simple method to . . . just like the earth is there, everybody knows. And from the earth different varieties of living entities are coming. The grass is coming, the plant is coming, then insects are coming, flies are coming, then by eating the grass or flies, the bigger animals are coming or they're existing. Take for four*-legged animals, they are eating the grass, the plants. So they are living, their generation is going on. Then the human being is coming by evolution. So anyway, ultimately they are coming from the earth. Is it not? Is there any difficulty? So we are coming from the earth or water or air, fire—the five elements. Therefore on the total material elements is our mother. The mother means wherefrom one comes. He's your child because his body has come from your body. Everyone knows it. So every living being is coming out of this earth in different forms. Now if it is established, the mother is the earth and everything that is coming out of mother, they are children, then where is father? Is it not the next inquiry? Mādhavānanda: Is that not the next inquiry? *Prabhupāda: The mother is there, the children are there. The next inquiry is . . . suppose unknown man comes to him, "Where is your father?" So who is the father? And father says, ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am father." Finished. Father is God. God has created this earth. He has impregnated the earth with the living entities, and they are coming out. Where is the difficulty? But because they are in ignorance, rascals, it takes long, long time to understand this simple truth. So dull-headed. The children are there and mother is there, and why father . . . there should be no father? What is the answer? Satsvarūpa: That the mother is just some symbolic idea. There is no . . . *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, mother exists. Mother means who begets, who gives birth. You practically see, grass to the highest form of life, they are coming from earth, living at the cost of the earth. The earth is supplying food, food grains, vegetables. So mother . . . as child is growing by sucking the mother's breast, so we are living at the cost of mother. She is giving us milk, she is giving us everything. That is mother. And śāstra , the earth is considered mother. Ātma*-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī . . . but they have no knowledge. Mother means who creates my body, who gives me feeding in the beginning, gives me strength. That is mother. How you can understand mother otherwise? So mother is there: earth. Dhenur dhātrī tathā pṛthvī. Pṛthvī is mother. And practically we see. She is giving, the mother earth, is giving birth to so many varieties of children—8,400,000. Then the next inquiry should be: the mother is there, the children are there, then where is the father? That answer is given by Kṛṣṇa: ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4), "I am the father." So where is the difficulty to understand Supreme Lord? But they are so dull-headed that they have no even common sense, and they're passing as philosopher, politician and scientist, big leader, big rascal. This is going on. This is going on. All big, big rascals, they have taken the leadership of the world, and the world is in chaos, chaotic condition; everyone is unhappy, suffering. Son: My heart has been captivated by person first introduced me to you, George Harrison, and . . . Prabhupāda: George Harrison? Oh. You came with him? Son: I first became interested several years back in what you were writing when I . . . especially when I began to see the tie with what he was singing. And now, it's like, the music he's doing right now reflects what I am looking for myself. Satsvarūpa: He's more following George Harrison than following you. Son: I see the two of you as not . . . Prabhupāda: What is George Harrison's? What is the idea? He is . . . Son: I see both of you standing together. I don't see you apart. That's why I'm here right now. Prabhupāda: Thank you. This boy is also nice. He comes to me. He offers me. He has given one great big estate in London. He financed my first *Kṛṣṇa Book* . It required nineteen thousand dollars. So I asked him that, "I have no money. If you can pay, I can print." So he gave immediately. I have admitted. You have seen my *Kṛṣṇa Book* ? Show him. Mādhavānanda: George Harrison's Introduction? Son: Oh, yes. I feel that I am personally in debt to him as well as being in debt to you at this point in my life. Prabhupāda: He's a good boy. Mādhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? There are many, many guests coming, Indian people coming today. We have not seen so many coming for a long time, and I think it is because they know you are here. (break) *Prabhupāda: One or two words, that is enough. Godless civilization. Everything, there is proof: there is father, the supreme father. And still they do not believe in God. He says ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā , "I am the seed-giving father." We have got experience that father gives the seed in the womb of the mother and then the child takes body from the mother and comes out. Everyone knows it. Hari-śauri: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Prabhupāda: Purport. Hari-śauri: "In this verse it is clearly explained that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is the original father of all living entities. The living entities are combinations of the material nature and the spiritual nature. Such living entities are seen not only on this planet but in every planet, even in the highest, where Brahmā is situated. Everywhere there are living entities; within the earth there are living entities, even within water and within fire. All these appearances are due to the mother . . ." Prabhupāda: And these rascals say in other planet there is no life. And we have to believe that. This is going on. Why other planet there is no life? Only this planet? These rascal things are going on. *Hari-śauri: "All these appearances are due to the mother, material nature, and Kṛṣṇa's seed*-giving process. The purport is that the living entities, being impregnated in the material world, come out and form at the time of creation according to their past deeds." *Prabhupāda: Now if the child is . . . if the father puts the seed in the black wife, the child may come in black body. In the white body, the child may come in white body. So the body is different according to the mother, but the soul is the same. One gets the body according to the body of the mother. But either in the black body or in the white body the soul is the same. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). This simple truth they cannot understand, common sense. In one minute it can be understood. The father . . . mother is there and the child is there. So there must be father. How one can deny? Son: Do we have any other goal in life than this . . . Prabhupāda: No, the first thing is that you must know what you are. You should know that the mother is nature and the father is God. I am the child. Then you try to understand the father, and the son, obedience to father. Then you have to learn how to become obedient to the father. Then father will be pleased. And this father is not a poor father. He has created the whole material world. So if you become good son, then naturally you enjoy the property of the father. Everything will be solved simply by understanding the father. And it is natural the son inherits the property of the father. The father is so rich, God, that how much property you can enjoy? What is the use of your endeavoring differently? You have got your father's property. Why you are wasting your time to become happy separately from the father? You just become obedient son of your father—naturally, you will inherit the father's property and be happy. Why you are endeavoring separately, without father? That is your mistake. You want to happy. So happiness is already there. You are such a rich man's son, God. God is the proprietor of everything. So instead of becoming a very dear child to the father, why you are endeavoring separately to become happy? Just become a very dear child to the father. Then everything is there. Son: How to become dear? *Prabhupāda: You recognize, "God is my father, and I shall be obedient son." That's all. You do what father says, then you become obedient son. The father says: "Always think of Me," man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), you can think of the father always. Where is the difficulty? Just like we're . . . Kṛṣṇa is the father. You see Kṛṣṇa daily. And if you think of Kṛṣṇa, where is the difficulty? If you see within your heart the Deity, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, you don't require to pass M.A., Ph.D. examination. You can do it. And He asks, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ . That's all. Simple thing. You come to the temple, offer obeisances. Everyone is offering. Where is the difficulty? What you lost? Where is your loss anything? If you come to the temple and offer your respectful obeisances, "Father, please accept my obeisances," where is the difficulty? And father is so kind: "Oh, My dear son, you have come. Very good. Thank you." Immediately you become recognized: "Oh, you are a good son." Where is the difficulty? You don't require the so-called meditation. Meditation is good if you think of your father. If you meditate on something nonsense, what is the use? This is going on. "Real father don't recognize; we are meditating." Misleading. Real meditation is to think of God. But if you do not know God, what is God, and when we present, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa," you don't accept, then what can be done? Everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, God. But if somebody says: "No, I do not accept," that is his business. If he wants to be misled, let him do. What can we do? But here is God. Thing is very simple. There is no difficulty. But we are so obstinate, lowest of the mankind, we would not accept simple things. We will make it complicated and be frustrated. That is our disease. Unnecessarily we make things complicated. Otherwise, father is there, father's instruction is there, father's favor is there. Everything is there. Mādhavānanda: The program's starting downstairs now. Hari-śauri: So I think they're going for the feast now? Mādhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Go. Take prasādam . Son: I don't understand you, but accept my humble obeisances please, anyway. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Thank you. Mother: Thank you, Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests leave) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Both of them are good, mother and son. What happened to that machine? (break) . . . say there is no father, and there is no God. A man who is speaking nonsense like this, he is born by a father. And where he gets the idea that without father the child is born? Hari-śauri: Doctor Frog. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. He's born by a father. So where he gets the idea a child is there without father? "There was chemical, there was this, there was . . ." Chemical is there in the semina. It is a chemical combination. But that chemical combination is not living entity. This body is chemical composition, but why don't you manufacture a living being with these chemicals? Hari-śauri: Even for a chemical reaction, the chemicals have to be brought together. Prabhupāda: No, suppose he's able to bring together, put together. But where is the life? Hari-śauri: But even accepting their idea that things are produced from chemical reactions, who is creating the chemical reactions? Prabhupāda: Yes, put this chemical together and bring life. Where is the life? We ask, prepare one egg. You can analyze the white part and the yellow part of the eggs, and you find some chemical properties. You bring them together and put in the same layer and everything. Now produce life. Where is that science? Simply talking, "Yes, we shall do. We are trying." Nonsense, trying. What is the use of trying? It is already there. God sent egg through the chicken; it will produce life. So why you are wasting your time in this way? Rather, try to understand the person who has got such a brain that within this chemical composition there is life. You cannot do it, therefore you are inferior. Somebody has done it. Even if you say: "Nature has done it," nature is then powerful. You are not even to the level of nature, what to speak of God. Nature is only one of the energies of God. You cannot understand even the energy. How you will understand the energetic? Hari-śauri: It's difficult to understand how they could possibly say that there's no intelligence. Prabhupāda: That is their . . . therefore we say these are all rascals. Therefore generally I say this very strong word, but that is the only word to be used for them: rascals, simply rascals. We have no business with them that we have to flatter. "No, no, sir," you have to be saying, "a great scientist." We say you are rascals. That's all. Straight, blunt. Four annas worth. (break) Hari-śauri: I saw a lot of Indians walking around this morning even. Prabhupāda: In our garden? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have found a good place, temple. Hari-śauri: It's a fact. This is the best place in all of Detroit. Prabhupāda: And if you purchase that land, it will be very beautiful. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: I have advised them to advertise books on the riverside. People will see. Hari-śauri: Hmm. That's a very good idea. Prabhupāda: Therefore, on the first day of seeing, I closed the transaction: "Now agreed, I will give you cash, three hundred thousand." He immediately agreed. Verbally, your transaction was finished on my first meeting. Then it was done. It was kept for us by Kṛṣṇa, otherwise, you could not touch this property, it is so valuable property. Hari-śauri: Seems Kṛṣṇa arranges things very nicely sometimes. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa arranges things very nicely sometimes. Prabhupāda: Everything is done just like it is temple. The Deity hall. Hari-śauri: It's a perfect place. Couldn't be better. (end) Conversation A -- June 14, 1976, Detroit (Conversation with Ambarisa and Catholic Priest) *Śrutikīrti: We took a few pictures that you could see. We took some pictures for you to look at of the restaurant. It's still being built, so there's not actually that much to see. (break) This street that it's on is very heavily traveled all day. This is taken at about five o'clock in the morning, so there's no one there. It's still under construction, you can see all the cinderblocks inside. But it's all*-glass building. Prabhupāda: It is being rented or purchased? Śrutikīrti: That's still being worked out. I think . . . Ambarīṣa: I think we're going to purchase. Śrutikīrti: . . . Ambarīṣa is purchasing. Prabhupāda: The back building? That is a different building? Śrutikīrti: No, yeah. This is condominiums, houses, for people living above, so the restaurant is just that one floor. That's what we would be purchasing, not the whole building. Ambarīṣa: The kitchen is inside the big building. *Śrutikīrti: But it's very choice space. It's just two blocks from what's called the Ritz Hotel, which is most famous hotel in the country, they have in every large city. These pictures, that glassed*-in area, that would all be just the serving area. Then the kitchen is behind the wall. There would be a large kitchen facility, where all the devotees would be cooking. Prabhupāda: Kitchen is within the building? Śrutikīrti and Ambarīṣa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So one*-story building also included? *Ambarīṣa: Yes, there's a kitchen and dish*-washing room and office, storage . . . Śrutikīrti: Storage space, office. All inside. Prabhupāda: Nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Did you explain that it was being built for someone who was going to start a restaurant, but they didn't? Śrutikīrti: Yes. They ran out of money, these people, and there were so many restrictions at this location because of these buildings here. People live there, and they didn't want anyone in there who was going to cook meat. And they didn't want anyone who was going to serve intoxication. So practically we're the only people that don't serve meat and intoxication. So it's actually . . . they are very glad. Ambarīṣa: The man who owns it says he gets fifty phone calls every day of people who want that space. It's such a good space that fifty people a day call. Prabhupāda: Fifty? Śrutikīrti: People are very interested. The location is excellent. It's on one of the most important streets in all of Boston. Ambarīṣa: Once we get open we'll be able to serve a thousand people a day. Prabhupāda: Oh. And what you are charging? Ambarīṣa: We're charging anywhere between three and eight dollars. Eight dollars for a very big plate, many preparations and different nectars and very sumptuous feast for eight dollars. And then if you just want a sandwich or something a little smaller, you can pay just three dollars. We think we'll be making about . . . how much? About half a million dollars a year, which will all go to you, Prabhupāda. (laughter) So we couldn't call the restaurant the "Hare Kṛṣṇa Restaurant" because there were some restrictions in the block, so we were thinking we'd call it "Saṅkīrtana." That's okay? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They are Hare Kṛṣṇa phobia. They are afraid. Śrutikīrti and Ambarīṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have suggested "Saṅkīrtana"? Ambarīṣa: Yes, they think that is nice. They do not know what that means. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Just like our Haridāsa. You know Haridāsa? Bombay? *Ambarīṣa: Yes, uh*-huh. Prabhupāda: He, Moscow, he was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa on the street, and when people asked, "What is this?" "This is cinema song." Ambarīṣa: Sometimes as devotees we have to be a little bit crooked. Prabhupāda: (indistinct Hindi) . . . we shall do everything as the material person does, karmīs do, but we have to do everything for Kṛṣṇa, not person. Then it is all right. So? Śrutikīrti: There's one thing. Our best hours, some of the best business in the restaurant, would be very late at night, like between nine to eleven o'clock at night. So is that all right as long as we can arrange . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Śrutikīrti: . . . everyone's following the program? People are up 'til midnight? Ambarīṣa: Still they will come to the morning program. Prabhupāda: But there will be picture of Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Ambarīṣa: Yes. *Śrutikīrti: We should have a nice altar, small altar, Pañca*-tattva. Ambarīṣa: The temple is only one block away. We were wondering, should we offer the food to the Deities in the temple or should we offer it in the restaurant? Prabhupāda: Better in the restaurant. Ambarīṣa: Better in the restaurant. Yes, that is a little easier also. Prabhupāda: They must know that they're eating prasādam . Ambarīṣa: Yes, yes. Śrutikīrti: There was one other thing. Mānasvī, he is outside of New York, and I don't know very much what his position is. I talked to him once. He wanted to see you in New York, I don't know if you know that, because he says that all these things are not true. No. *Prabhupāda: He's a thief. He has taken about twenty*-five thousand dollars. He's a thief from the very beginning. What he is doing now? Śrutikīrti: He's working two jobs. They won't allow him in the temple. I think you sent one letter or something. Prabhupāda: No, he should not be admitted. *Ambarīṣa: Also in Boston there's a lady who may be donating a million*-dollar farm to the Boston temple. This is just a project that's a little bit . . . that's just started, and she wants to donate her farm. So that is also going on, and also the temple is purchasing the building next door. I gave them some money for a down payment on it so they could buy the building next door to use it to house the people that are living in the restaurant and also for the Bhaktivedanta Institute, because I think the Bhaktivedanta Institute is going to be in Boston. Mādhava is there. Prabhupāda: Yes, Boston is nice place for the Institute. Śrutikīrti: Best place for it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's the educational center of America. Ambarīṣa: Academic center of the United States. So now we are fixing up the temple very nicely. We've spent about fifty thousand dollars putting in all new tile floor and a beautiful new onyx altar. Very, very gorgeous. Prabhupāda: So it is framework or solid building? Ambarīṣa: The building? It's stone, brownstone. Prabhupāda: Oh, then it's nice. Ambarīṣa: Very sound. Śrutikīrti: It's in a very nice area in Boston. Commonwealth Avenue was the most aristocratic street in Boston. The temple is right there, just one block from downtown. Prabhupāda: Near Commonwealth Pier? Śrutikīrti: Near Boston Commons. Boston Commons? The big park. Prabhupāda: Not park, there is a pier, pier, (pronounces "pire") what do you call? Ambarīṣa: Oh, pier, pier. Oh, yes, it is near there, Prabhupāda. That's where you landed. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) *Ambarīṣa: Yes, it is not far. We're having Ratha*-yātrā in Boston for the first time this year, and we're going to take the Ratha carts down to Commonwealth Pier in honor of your arrival. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) There is one A.P. store? Ambarīṣa: A.P.? *Prabhupāda: A*-P, A-P store. Ambarīṣa: Market? Yes, it's still there. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I saw first. (laughter) I remember. Ambarīṣa: So there are many nice projects going on in Boston. We are hoping that maybe sometime you can come. That would be very nice. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. From New York it is not . . . *Ambarīṣa: No, it is very close to New York, half*-hour airplane ride. Prabhupāda: So it is ready? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We were talking about different names for the restaurant yesterday. Śrutikīrti: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja did not care for "Saṅkīrtana Restaurant." (laughs) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I thought that there might be a name of Kṛṣṇa, like they were using "Govinda," but that's obviously a name for Kṛṣṇa. Because people don't . . . we wanted to camouflage. *Ambarīṣa: We wanted to have a name that was Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, just exclusively Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So we thought "Saṅkīrtana." No other movement . . . we're the saṅkīrtana movement. So we thought that name would show that it was exclusively Hare Kṛṣṇa, whereas many other Indians they have named their store "Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Store," stuff like this. So we thought . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Something perhaps more exotic. I was just thinking as a restaurant. Ambarīṣa: We wanted something that was exclusively . . . Prabhupāda: They have started "Govinda's"? Ambarīṣa: Yes, that is in Hawaii. Yes. Prabhupāda: Govinda's name is nice. Śrutikīrti: Yes, I always liked. Now Laguna Beach, they are also calling it "Govinda's." Prabhupāda: Yes, so why not continue this "Govinda's"? Ambarīṣa: Yes, we could. Okay. Śrutikīrti: It's very good publicity. If many are started, they are all "Govinda's," then everyone will recognize it. Ambarīṣa: Okay, there is no difficulty. *Prabhupāda: Govindam ādi*-puruṣam . So that's all right, "Govinda's." Ambarīṣa: Okay. (pause) Śrutikīrti: Hari-śauri looks like he can give a very good massage. He looks like he can give a very good massage. Prabhupāda: Mmm. Hari-śauri's one defect is he cannot cook. (laughter) Otherwise he is duplicate. Except cooking. He knows very good cooking. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He can eat though. He can eat prasāda . Śrutikīrti: So I can travel and cook? Prabhupāda: He can . . . a young man must eat. Why one should be like me? Ambarīṣa: Śrutikīrti and Jaya. Jaya , Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (tape continues after entrance of Eugene Stansky, or Stowsky, a Catholic priest who had met Prabhupāda and the devotees in L.A. and was now traveling with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja) Eugene: . . . the very best. Prabhupāda: Yes. Eugene: I'm very, very pleased. I feel very blessed by being with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: So just work cooperatively for the benefit of human society. We were just discussing our so many things. (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa) You can explain what I was talking. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How the present civilization is . . . just like here in Detroit, producing so many cars. Prabhupāda: Kalke teen char baar apnar bishoye khoj korechilam. Apni chilen na. (I inquired about you three or four times yesterday. You were not there.) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how long can this civilization go on, simply producing automobiles, like this? So the situation is that the people are always in a state of poverty. Just like the black people here in Detroit, even they are making sufficient money, still they are always in a state of poverty because they don't know how to live. Prabhupāda related one story that the capitalist and the worker, both of them, they went to the goddess of fortune appealing for a benediction. So the capitalist asked: "Give me such money that I will be able to work one day and it will last me for six months." And then the worker, he went and he said, "Give me one thousand dollars I have every day to spend." Prabhupāda: No, he said that, "Give me the same money as the capitalist will spend in six months. I shall spend every day. I shall get that money every day and I shall spend it." So this worker class, there is no culture. You may pay them heavy amount of money, but they will spend it and remain a poor man, because he has no culture. Eugene: This is true. *Prabhupāda: You see these black men. They earn sufficient money, but see their home. See their home. You America, you have given them equal rights, they are getting money, but they have no culture. Therefore you may pay them as much as you like, but still poverty*-stricken. In Africa also I have seen that they have got their own kingdom, independence, but if we go to the African slums, they are poverty-stricken, wretched. So this civilization will not endure. If there is no culture, simply by money you cannot maintain a standard of civilization. That is not possible. Now the American leaders, they are thinking, "Let us have money, then everything . . ." Of course, by money you are covering all the defects of the social culture. But this will not endure. Day will come when everything will be exposed. Therefore culture required. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda was explaining how in India even the poorest people, they live—husband, wife, family, like this—in very . . . Prabhupāda: Happy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . simple quarters. Prabhupāda: Happily they live. As soon as there is no quarrel between the husband and wife, the home will be happy. And as soon as there is misunderstanding between husband, wife, it will be hell. So the principle is the husband honestly tries to earn livelihood, and at home the wife should be so intelligent that whatever money the husband has earned, she'll manage. She'll not demand, "Bring money, bring money, bring money. Otherwise it cannot be . . ." Then the home will be happy. So where is that training? Hari-śauri: (explaining) Where is that training? Eugene: Well, there is no training here. There is no culture, as you pointed out. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say culture, not training. Eugene: As a matter of fact, even among the educated classes in the United States, there is no culture. There are no cultural roots. *Prabhupāda: No, no culture. There is no culture. There is no standard social life. Simply hodgepodge. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to bring everything in proper order. Everything is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . So America is the leading nation of the world. If you work on the principle of Bhagavad-gītā and train up your people, it will be ideal state and example for the whole world. At least a certain section of the American population should be ideal. That will also do. Not that . . . we cannot expect cent percent will take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not needed. But if there is one section of the people ideal, that will be followed. But we want to create that section, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Eugene: May I pose a question, Your Grace? It's less than two weeks that I'm asking you for the second time to instruct me. You gave me some very general instructions in my last audience, and I'm very grateful. Many things have transpired since then. I'm now here in Detroit; we'll be going on to Toronto very shortly. From Toronto to Chicago, and then I'm not sure what the agenda is. I'm tremendously pleased, because it's giving me an opportunity to work in the area that you said I should be working in. In addition to which I have ample time to study. And I have the assistance of Satsvarūpa with my studies. Now I have a question. I would like very much to keep a log of my daily activities and start preparing an outline of a book. Now the book very basically won't . . . I won't be starting on the book for at least a year, but I would like to start keeping a log. Prabhupāda: You can keep record. Eugene: Yes. Now the reason I would like to keep a log and prepare an outline and start a book, say a year from now, it would show a transition from Roman priesthood to Hare Kṛṣṇa devotee. I think this would open up the door to all of the colleges and universities across the country. Prabhupāda: Very good idea, yes. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). The nature is, if we get better engagement, we give up inferior engagement. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. So this will be an example. You are a Roman priest. You are educated, learned scholar also. So when you come to this movement, you do not come here by sentiment or by whims. You consider, then you have come. Eugene: This is what I wanted to say, that I'm not here because of sentiment. I'm here for very, very sound reasons, and I want to explain the reasons. *Prabhupāda: Therefore we are presenting these books, that we are not a so*-called sect of whimsical faith. It is based on science and authorities. Recently we have got report that our books have been taken in Hamburg University. You know Hamburg University? Eugene: Yes. Hari-śauri: East Germany. Prabhupāda: As their textbook for Sanskrit class. They found it so wonderful. Because for Sanskrit scholar it is good opportunity to learn Sanskrit, because each word we have given in English and German synonyms. Eugene: I want very much to learn basic Sanskrit, but I have so much to learn right now that, ah . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is not necessary. But those who are interested in studying Sanskrit literature, for them it is very good help. And at the same time they get sublime knowledge. Eugene: Indeed. Prabhupāda: They study Sanskrit and get knowledge. So you have kindly come to join us. You study our philosophy very minutely, and then try to do something for the suffering humanity. The saintly persons, at least in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement, they are not meant for idle life. They are always busy for the welfare of the whole human society. This is the sign of saintly person. They are misguided and they are suffering, and it is the duty of the saintly person to give them instruction, education, how they can become really happy and make their life successful. This is saintly person. A saintly person doesn't mean to live at other's expenditure and do all nonsense things. This is not saintly person. Hmm. Ki kotha bolben . . . (What were you saying . . .) (break) You asked me some question? Eugene: Well, I wanted to know whether it would be all right to keep the log and to write at the . . . work out the outline for the book. You told me to go ahead. So I will do that. Basically, this is what I wanted to do. I would like to continue with the group. I would like to travel with the group and keep an accurate log and start an outline and see, possibly within a year's time, I will have sufficient material to start the book. Prabhupāda: That's nice, huh? You like this idea? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ajke ingreji koto tarik? Ingreji? (What is the date today according to the English calendar?) These boys who are working for this movement? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How do you like our men, the devotees? Eugene: Oh, I'm very, very impressed. This impressed me to begin with—their enthusiasm, their joy, and their complete surrender. This is what . . . Prabhupāda: That is the qualification. Eugene: This is the qualification. *Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). That is the secret of success. If one has got unflinching faith in his spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, then he's successful. Two things. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā-pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). So if the guru is false, then how they can keep their faith? That will be broken. Our process is very simple. There is no difficulty. You have seen our Los Angeles temple? Eugene: Yes. Prabhupāda: When we purchased, it was a church, perhaps you know. Nobody was coming, so that they were obliged to sell. They started this Sunday class, this, that, so many things. In Melbourne also we have seen a big . . . what was that? Hari-śauri: It used to be what they call a Christian Brothers school. Prabhupāda: That we wanted to purchase? Hari-śauri: Oh, that nunnery. Prabhupāda: Nunnery. So they wanted to maintain themselves by becoming washermen. Still, they could not maintain. They eventually became washermen . . . washerwoman, to maintain. Huge establishment. So I wanted, negotiation was there. They persisted that the church should not be broken. No? To be broken. Hari-śauri: Yes, there were different sections. They had a school there and . . . Prabhupāda: So we thought that we shall use it as temple. That they disagreed. "No, you cannot keep it. You have to break it, then we can sell to you." Then why shall I break it? We shall pay for it and break it? No. Then the negotiation failed. But a huge land, and we are prepared to purchase. In England, in London, I was . . . one, two churches I was negotiating, and one church, that man, he said, "I'll burn into ashes. I'll not sell it to Bhaktivedanta." (laughs) Recently we wanted to purchase in St. James Park one nice house. So they did not give us. They . . . we offered better price; still they did not give us. Eugene: Your Grace, the thing that impressed me the very most at the temple in Los Angeles . . . now you must bear in mind that I am very, very steeped in Catholicism, I'm very steeped in the New Testament. So when I observed what was happening at the temple in Los Angeles, I was seeing the Book of Acts coming to life—something that died three hundred years ago in the Roman church. In 300 A.D. it died. Since then there's been no such example. And I was just amazed, wandering around, because there I saw the exact book, the Book of Acts. And I was impressed. Indian girl: Humne aaj subah me record kiya tha. (I recorded it in the morning.) Prabhupāda: That's alright. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation A -- June 15, 1976, Detroit (Conversation with George Gullen, President of Wayne State University) George Gullen: . . . I'm the president of Wayne State University. I'm very pleased to be asked to come and visit with you. (break) Prabhupāda: You have studied something about our philosophy? George Gullen: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: I am asking, you have studied something about our philosophy? George Gullen: A little. Not very much. I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be, I'm certain. Prabhupāda: It is not a sectarian movement. (to someone else) Why you stop? Yes. (to Gullen) It is essential knowledge for the whole human society. There are two things: matter and spirit. We can understand, every one of us, we are combination of two things: matter and spirit. The matter is the body, and the spirit is the moving force. *George Gullen: Um*-hm, I hear what you're saying, yes. Prabhupāda: But the modern civilization, throughout the whole world, they are very serious about the matter, but they are completely in ignorance about the spirit. What is your opinion about these things? George Gullen: I understand that very clearly, and I think we're caught up terribly in matters that are not of the spirit. We're terribly caught up in materialistic things. Prabhupāda: But material, that is temporary. This body—your body, my body, anyone's body—that is temporary. It will not stay. It has taken birth at a certain date, it will endure for certain years, and then it will be finished. But the spirit, that will continue. It will accept another body. Just like we are accepting . . . we are giving up our body, childhood body, accepting the body of a boy, then giving up the boyhood body, accepting the body of a young man. Similarly, this body . . . just like I am an old man. This will be finished, and I will accept another body. So the spirit soul is eternal, and the body is temporary. So we are taking care of the body very much. That is also required. But what about the spirit soul? This education is lacking. George Gullen: Yes, this is true. My father was a Christian minister all of his life, and he had very deep beliefs about the spiritual matters. He felt very strongly, as you do, that the body was temporal, temporary, and that his spirit would find its way into some other form of life, and he believed very strongly in life after human death, very much so. He believed in a matter he called cosmic consciousness, in which the spirit had far greater powers than physical powers. He had similar kinds, I believe, of beliefs that you do. I have some beliefs myself that the human body being quite temporary, that years are not long for it, that there must be more to life than just the physical side. Prabhupāda: Everyone's body is temporary, either human body or cat's body, dog's body. But the human body is important because in the human body we have developed consciousness by which we can understand what is God. The cats and dogs, they cannot. They haven't got that developed consciousness. Therefore if we do not use this developed consciousness for understanding God and our relationship with Him, then we are no better than cats and dogs. Cats and dogs cannot be educated about God, but a human being can be educated. That is the distinction between animals and man. But modern education is keeping them in ignorance about God, so they are no better than cats and dogs. And how can bring peace among cats and dogs? Can you bring in peace calling all the dogs of your city and sit down peacefully? No, that is not possible. So if we keep our citizens like cats and dogs, then how we can expect peace? George Gullen: We are much in ignorance about those matters, I understand that, and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Complete ignorance, like animals. So the leaders of the society, if they are serious about advancement of human civilization, they must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness; otherwise, they'll be baffled. George Gullen: Well, we do not teach about these things . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the defect. George Gullen: . . . in public schools because we do not know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now whether still we shall remain in ignorance or we shall learn this science and teach? That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a sectarian religious movement. No, it is not that. This is science, scientific movement. So leading personalities like you, teachers, professors and other leading men, they should try to understand what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, and join. It is for the human society, it is not for a certain section. George Gullen: I would like very much to know more about these matters myself, personally. Prabhupāda: So kindly do that. You are little interested. So we are receiving orders from all universities, colleges, of our books. You have seen our books? These are our books. Satsvarūpa: Wayne State University, where he is president, they have standing orders. Prabhupāda: Ah, we have also given. That is very nice. So every person, responsible person, he should learn this science and introduce, so that the opportunity a human being has got, that must be utilized. George Gullen: I'm sure there are many interpretations of what you say. I have an interest in these matters, and I want to know more about yours, very much so. I will see that I get your literature and read it. *Prabhupāda: Your father was also interested. That means naturally you have got some instinct from father, hereditary instinct. That is natural. So we want that . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā there is a verse. (aside) Find out: Hari-śauri: 3.21. "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues." Prabhupāda: Purport? *Hari-śauri: Purport: "People in general always require a leader who can teach the public by practical behavior. A leader cannot teach the public to stop smoking if he himself smokes. Lord Caitanya said that a teacher should behave properly even before he begins teaching. One who teaches in that way is called ācārya , or the ideal teacher. Therefore, a teacher must follow the principles of śāstra , scripture, to reach the common man. The teacher cannot manufacture rules against the principles of revealed scriptures. The revealed scriptures, like Manu*-saṁhitā and others, are considered the standard books to be followed by human society. Thus the leader's teaching should be based on the principles of the standard rules as they are practiced by the great teachers. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also affirms that one should follow in the footsteps of great devotees, and this is the way of progress on the path of spiritual realization. The king or the executive head of a state, the father and the schoolteacher are all considered to be natural leaders of the innocent people in general. All such natural leaders have a great responsibility to their dependents; therefore they must be conversant with standard books of moral and spiritual codes." George Gullen: Very good, very good. I believe all that. Every word. The people need leadership, inspiration, that they can follow with their whole heart. They cannot follow . . . *Prabhupāda: There must be practice. That we are teaching. That simply not theoretical, but practical. Here in our institute, we teach all the students practically how to become God conscious. Theoretical knowledge will not help us. There must be practical behavior. They are rising early in the morning, attending maṅgala-ārati , then having class, Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , chanting. In this way, twenty-four hours engaged. It is not fifteen minutes' recreation. No. Twenty-four hours' program. George Gullen: I think this is good for the world. I think the world needs it, very much so. Prabhupāda: So we are trying, although we are not supported by any government, we are trying in our own way. Own way . . . the way is standard, but unfortunately people have lost interest in these things. Animal life. As soon as we forget our interest in spiritual life, then immediately we're animals. George Gullen: We're very much creatures of habit, and it's difficult for us to give up our habits. *Prabhupāda: Habit can be changed. Habit can be changed by practice. Just like we advise no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat*-eating. So all these Europeans, Americans, they were habituated to all these habits, but now they have stopped. It can be, by practice, bad habits can be changed. George Gullen: You appear to have a program of great discipline, and I think that discipline is necessary for people who want to feel and learn and understand. I'm an admirer of discipline of that kind. But it's hard for one to bring oneself to do that out of a world that's strange, a strange world—our world is strange—try to bring myself out of that to other things. But I'm pleased to have this opportunity to hear you and to think about it, talk about it. I'd like to read more about it. Prabhupāda: One priest has joined us. What is his name? Satsvarūpa: Eugene Stowsky. Prabhupāda: He's Ph.D. He has recently joined us. He likes this movement. George Gullen: I'm sure it satisfies a deep need. I'm sure that's true. *Prabhupāda: No, it is the need of the human society. There is no alternative. In the Vedic mantra it is said, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). One must accept this. Otherwise, his human life is spoiled. If you simply trained up to live like an animal, then it is a great harm to the human society. George Gullen: I think our educational program at our university is very important to people if it helps them think and understand and begin to feel. We don't educate the heart, and I think there's something wrong about that. I think that the heart needs an education. There's some feelings one has to understand and some responses. We're inadequate in this respect, I . . . Prabhupāda: No, the thing is . . . suppose a person, by his right, has to get so much money from his father's property. If somebody does not give him that money or somehow or other checks him to get the money, so that's a very heinous act. If he is actually inheritor of the father's property, he must get it. That is justice. Similarly, in the human form of life, one can get this education. If this education is lacking, that means we are envious; *we're not giving the opportunity of fulfilling the right. And without this education, there is chance of falling down. Just like tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Another body you have to accept. If you do not give proper education, then next body may be lower than human being. There are so many different types of bodies, 8,400,000. So according to our mentality, we get another body. Nature's law. Nobody can check it. This life I may be very satisfied that, "I have got this body. Let me enjoy without any responsibility and become an animal." That's not very good civilization. They do not believe in the next life. Big, big educated men, they have no brain even to understand that we are changing every moment the body, and they don't believe that body changes and the soul continues. Dhīras tatra na muhyati . (aside) Find out this verse. Hari-śauri: *"As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." George Gullen: These are difficult words to understand, but I appreciate them. Prabhupāda: Therefore dhīra . . . dhīras tatra. Dhīra means sober gentleman. Dhīra. Dhīra means gentleman. So if one does not understand this simple truth, he's not even a gentleman, what to speak of learned scholar. Dhīras tatra na muhyati . That means every gentleman must have this education. And what is the use? What is the meaning of dhīra ? Hari-śauri: Sober. Satsvarūpa: Learned. Prabhupāda: That is gentleman. So one who does not understand this philosophy of life is not fit to be addressed as gentleman. It is commonsense knowledge. George Gullen: My father used to speak of the Oversoul, that I think had some similarity to these words that we just read, that the soul that is above . . . *Prabhupāda: We call Supersoul, that is God. The idea is in Christianity also, "Holy Ghost" like that. Supersoul and the ordinary soul. We living entities, we are ordinary souls, and God in His all*-pervading feature, He is Supersoul. (aside) Find out this verse: kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: Kṣetra*-kṣetrajñayor jñānaṁ yat taj jñānaṁ yat anyatā. English? Hari-śauri: "O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its owner is called knowledge. That is My opinion." *Prabhupāda: First of all knowledge means kṣetra*-kṣetrajña. The body is the field of activity. You are acting, I am also acting, everyone is acting—according to the body. But the actor is called kṣetrajña . Just like a cultivator is tilling the land, his own, and the tiller is cultivator. Similarly, this body is an analogy of this field, and we are tilling. So Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am also one of the tillers." Just like the tenant and the landlord. In an apartment house, the tenant is occupier of a certain house, certain apartment, but the landlord is the owner of the whole house. So God says: "I am also kṣetrajña —but for all the building," everything that is there, all planets, all, everywhere. That is His all-pervasiveness. I am the proprietor of this body, owner of this body, but God is proprietor of all the bodies. In this way that is explained. (aside) Purport? Hari-śauri: Purport: "While discussing the subject of this body and the owner of the body, the soul and the Supersoul, we shall find three different topics of study—the Lord, the living entity and matter. In every field of activities, in every body, there are two souls—the individual soul and the Supersoul. Because the Supersoul is the plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says: 'I am also the knower, but I am not the individual owner of the body. I am the superknower. I am present in every body as the Paramātmā, or Supersoul.' " *"One who studies the subject matter of the field of activity and the knower of the field very minutely, in terms of this Bhagavad*-gītā , can attain to knowledge. The Lord says, 'I am the knower of the field of activities in every individual body.' The individual may be the knower of his own body, but he is not in knowledge of other bodies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is present as the Supersoul in all bodies, knows everything about all bodies. He knows all the different bodies of all the various species of life. A citizen may know everything about his patch of land, but the king knows not only his palace but all the properties possessed by the individual citizens. Similarly, one may be the proprietor of the body individually, but the Supreme Lord is the proprietor of all bodies. The king is the original proprietor of the kingdom, and the citizen is the secondary proprietor. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the supreme proprietor of all bodies." "The body consists of the senses. The Supreme Lord is Hṛṣīkeśa, which means controller of the senses. He is the original controller of the senses, just as the king is the original controller of all activities within the state, and the citizens are secondary controllers. The Lord also says: 'I am also the knower.' This means that He is the superknower; the individual soul knows only his particular body. In Vedic literature, it is also stated . . ." Prabhupāda: Just like pains and pleasure. You know your bodily pains and pleasure, I know my body. But I do not know your bodily pains, neither you know mine. But God knows everyone's pains and pleasures. That is the difference between God and individual soul. *Hari-śauri: "This body is called kṣetra , and within it dwells the owner of the body and the Supreme Lord, who knows both the body and the owner of the body. Therefore He is called the knower of all fields. The distinction between the field of activities, the owner of activities and the supreme owner of activities is described as follows. Perfect knowledge of the constitution of the body, the constitution of the individual soul and the constitution of the Supersoul is known in terms of Vedic literature as jñānam . That is the opinion of Kṛṣṇa. To understand both the soul and the Supersoul as one yet distinct is knowledge. One who does not understand the field of activity and the knower of activity is not in perfect knowledge. One has to understand the position of prakṛti , nature, and puruṣa , the enjoyer of the nature, and īśvara , the knower who dominates or controls nature and the individual soul. One should not confuse the three in their different capacities. One should not confuse the painter, the painting and the easel. This material world, which is the field of activities, is nature, and the enjoyer of nature is the living entity, and above them both is the supreme controller, the Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the Vedic language: bhoktā bhogyaṁ preritāraṁ ca matvā / sarvaṁ proktaṁ tri*-vidhaṁ brahmam etat (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 1.12). There are three Brahman conceptions: prakṛti is Brahman as the field of activities, and the jīva (individual soul) is also Brahman and is trying to control the material nature, and the controller of both of them is also Brahman, but He is the factual controller." "In this chapter it will be also explained that out of the two knowers, one is fallible and the other is infallible. One is superior and the other is subordinate. One who understands the two knowers of the field to be one and the same contradicts the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who states here very clearly that 'I am also the knower of the field of activity.' One who misunderstands a rope to be a serpent is not in knowledge. There are different kinds of bodies, and there are different owners of the bodies. Because each individual soul has his individual capacity of lording it over material nature, there are different bodies. But the Supreme also is present in them as the controller. The word ca is significant, for it indicates the total number of bodies. That is the opinion of Śrīla Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa: Kṛṣṇa is the Supersoul present in each and every body apart from the individual soul. And Kṛṣṇa explicitly says here that the Supersoul is the controller of both the field of activities and the finite enjoyer." George Gullen: Thank you for reading this to me. I'm afraid I must be discourteous and leave you at the moment. I am speaking at a dinner meeting for my university. Prabhupāda: All right. George Gullen: I was delighted with Miss Reuther's call, for the chance to come and for this opportunity to listen to you, and I'm very grateful to her for calling. Prabhupāda: Give him some prasādam . Lekhaśravantī: Here's some prasādam . George Gullen: Oh, thank you very much. (end) Conversation -- June 16, 1976, Detroit (several devotees conversing about doctors and hepatitis) (Prabhupāda enters, offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: You can make little chewra . Pālikā: Same way Hari-śauri is making? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Pālikā: Same. Turn it off? Or on? Hari-śauri: It's on now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's on. Prabhupāda: On. Hari-śauri: That priest was very responsive. It's very nice. Prabhupāda: He wanted to become student. Hari-śauri: (laughs) He was becoming very enthusiastic. He was very enlivened. Anyone with a little intelligence, as soon as you begin to speak to them, they, immediately, they become so much enlivened. He's obviously . . . he's had some idea about organization and whatever, but he's never seen it practiced. And now he's come here and seen it practical. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is practical training. That is wanted. Simply theoretical knowledge . . . that is helpful, but training, that is the greatest need, that we have to create a set of first*-class men. Then the world will be all right. That is an attempt of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to make first class, ideal. Why they'll be attracted? They are seeing that "The priests are doing the same thing as we are doing." So how they will be attracted? Therefore Christianity is failing. They are also having the meat, illicit sex, drunkard—and they're priest. Hari-śauri: They've watered down so much, there's no value left to what they're doing. They're exactly the same as a man in the street, except he says he believes in God and the man on the street says he doesn't believe. And they have no ability to convince a man that God exists. They have no scientific knowledge or whatever. Prabhupāda: Simply by the position—"I am Cardinal," "I am Pope," "I am priest," "I am that." How long it will go on? Hari-śauri: It's not going on very much longer anyway, there's so many . . . it's falling apart. There's so many branches. Just the fact that there's so many divisions now of Christianity, that this man was speaking about this charismatic movement. Now this is the young people. They're feeling a need for God, so they're trying to express it through another concocted form of Christianity. But that will also be a failure. Prabhupāda: Let us try honestly, that's all. Hari-śauri: As long as we can preach very purely, then the effect will be there. Prabhupāda: So by this time, we shall be in Toronto tomorrow. Hari-śauri: Yes. Three quarter . . . 5:45 the plane leaves. So we'll be there by 6:00, 6:40, something like that. They don't have a garden there, though. Prabhupāda: Time difference the same? No time difference? Hari-śauri: I don't think so. Oh, we'll have to go through Customs though. It's Canada, so we have to travel through Customs, what have you. Prabhupāda: We require passport? Visa? You've got? Hari-śauri: I think so. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja already has it sorted out. My U.S. visa allows me to travel outside the country and come back in unlimited amount of times. I don't . . . (laughs) In Toronto also, one boy there was telling us that the priest that was selling that church, he said that he would rather burn it down than sell it to us. But because this Indian man bought it for us, then we were able to get it. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. It was sold to somebody else. But because it is an old church, the government municipality would not allow to break it. Then the man who purchased, he was obliged to sell to us. Hari-śauri: That's an exact duplicate of the situation that happened in Melbourne. That place was sold to a property developer, and then the National Trust put a classification on it, so he was not able to break it down, and neither could he utilize the extra space in the yard for building flats, because the Council would not allow him. So then we . . . they wouldn't . . . originally they would not sell to us. Prabhupāda: Same thing here. Nobody would purchase it on account of this black quarter. Nobody was purchasing, ready to purchase. Hari-śauri: So Kṛṣṇa is saving some very nice places for us. Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's trick. (chuckles) Everyone talks of this, "We Eastern, we believe in this," and "We Western, we believe in this." You remain peaceful, everyone. Everyone is thinking like this. We have no such thing, Eastern, Western. It is fact. For everyone, it is good. Eastern, Western, we don't take. Several times, this question . . . I talk . . . I spoke in the American Embassy in Calcutta. They gave me the subject matter, "East and West." So I, in the beginning, I began to speak that we have no such dual, East and West. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Needs a higher consciousness. Prabhupāda: If she can make samosā . . . Hari-śauri: With the chewra . Prabhupāda: No, chewra may be avoided. Samosā . One will be enough. Hari-śauri: Either chewra or samosā , or both? Prabhupāda: No. Either of them. Hari-śauri: One or the other. Prabhupāda: Yes. But I shall prefer samosā . Hari-śauri: Oh, I'd better go down before she starts, then. (end) Conversation A -- June 17, 1976, Toronto Prabhupāda: . . . except London. Haṁsadūta, when he was GBC . . . he's still GBC? Jagadīśa: Haṁsadūta? Prabhupāda: That part? No. Jagadīśa: No, Jayatīrtha is. Prabhupāda: So there was some complaint against him. Jagadīśa: Against Mādhavānanda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. The complaint is that he spent money on his own account lavishly. Jagadīśa: Hmm. I don't know about that. Prabhupāda: Some of the Life Members complained. I received several complaints. The other day I asked: "You collected some money for constructing temple, so where is that money?" So he gave explanation. So thirty . . . fifteen thousand pounds were collected by him. Jagadīśa: From Ambarīṣa? Hari-śauri: No, this was in England. Jagadīśa: Oh, in England. Oh. Prabhupāda: But there is only balance two thousand five hundred. Hari-śauri: Yes, just two or three thousand that's left. Prabhupāda: All the money, he said, spent. Now they are asking for loan for purchasing one house. This money was collected for temple construction. We were awaiting opportunity. In the meantime, money spent. Jagadīśa: Have there been any complaints from Detroit? Have there been any similar complaints from Detroit? Prabhupāda: In Detroit I have received complaint that . . . many . . . Govardhana was popular president. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Popular. Everyone liked him. Jagadīśa: Yes, very gentle soul. Prabhupāda: Ah. So this is complaint I received. Jagadīśa: They don't like Mādhavānanda? Prabhupāda: Some of them say. Hari-śauri: He's forceful. He's quite a forceful person. Prabhupāda: What is this forceful? Hari-śauri: Well, if someone is very active, then it's only natural that some people will not be very keen on him, because he likes to get things done. Those that are a little slow, sometimes they complain. Maybe just that he's only been there a month or so. He's only been there not too long, so it's natural that it will take some time for the devotees to adapt to doing the things according to his direction rather than the way that they've been used to doing it. There's always some transition. Prabhupāda: You can know more about him from Haṁsadūta. As well Bhagavān. Jagadīśa: Bhagavān recommended him. He had been in Paris before coming to America. But his complaint was that he didn't speak French, so he didn't like to stay in France. Then he came to America, and he was distributing books with Tripurāri Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Oh, he is very intelligent, there is no doubt, intelligent. And for preaching work he is good. But for becoming the manager in London, there were . . . what is that boy in Bombay? Hari-śauri: Oh, Prabhaviṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Prabhaviṣṇu. So, who would become president, there was war. (laughter) Haṁsadūta wanted Prabhaviṣṇu, and Mādhavānanda wanted that he would become president. In this way there was great faction. So the management was being done nicely. He was attracting Indians, faithful—they were following. But there were several complaints that he spent very lavishly on his personal account. Purchasing sārī . . . Jagadīśa: What do you think we should do, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? No, I do not wish to interfere. You manage now. I want to see that you are managing without my interference. Now practically I want to concentrate more, or absolutely I want to do that. But sometimes this mismanagement gives me too much anxiety. I do not wish to see that somehow or other we have built up a nice institution, on account of lack of management it may be hampered. That is my only anxiety. Now what is the position of the gurukula in Texas? Our gurukula , I have repeatedly said that we want simply to know English nicely—English is international language—and Sanskrit just to read and understand our literature. But we don't find any progress in that way. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you say that we don't find any progress, do you mean just on account of Pradyumna's testimony? Or do you see beyond that, also, that there's no progress. Prabhupāda: No. Pradyumna, of course, personally saw. But when I was in Dallas I could not find any good progress. Jagadīśa: How do you judge that progress? Prabhupāda: The chanting of the Sanskrit verses. Not all of them could do it very nicely. It is only practice, and . . . apart from Pradyumna. So his complaint is that he cannot write even 1, 2, 3, 4, up to ten. Jagadīśa: I know we have some good people. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jagadīśa: We have some good, qualified people, and I'm organizing . . . Prabhupāda: I saw some machine purchased, some, for publishing, some . . . Jagadīśa: Printing machine. Prabhupāda: Printing. Why this is going on? Jagadīśa: Those were purchased before I got involved. Prabhupāda: Just see. That means money was spent unnecessarily, without any tangible result. So Dayānanda left. He was there . . . without any consultation, he left. So what to do with all these things? Jagadīśa: I think I have it under control. I have plans . . . *Prabhupāda: You see these two things especially, that they . . . English is their mother tongue, mother language. They can easily become English scholar very easily. And Sanskrit language is no difficulty. Read and write, read and write, then he will learn. Our education in Sanskrit was in college. Of course, I was the best student in my class of Sanskrit. I was standing first. But we are not like the so*-called Sanskrit scholars. But for our purpose we can read and write, that's all. Similarly, we don't want any very learned scholars, Sanskrit grammarian, to manufacture jugglery of words, meanings. No, we don't want that. Simply we can conduct our business, that's all. Just like Marwaris, they, their education is up to their business understanding, that's all. They don't want to be scholars or technologists. You won't find in big, big Marwari families they have become a doctor, engineer or technologist. No. But in business dealings they are first class. (laughs) That they train. I had one Marwari friend in Calcutta. He was a very rich businessman and has got several mills. So sometimes I went to his house. I saw that he had engaged a Sanskrit paṇḍita and an English teacher, that's all. So I asked him, "You don't send your children to school?" "No, no, no, no. I . . . if we require some technologist, we can purchase. You pay some money, so many technologists you will get, M.A., Ph.D., D.H.C., C.H.C. 'All right, take payment and do business.' " They employ very, very, very large salary. But on the head, management, their own sons, grandsons. Jagadīśa: You've explained this to me a number of times, and I think I'm beginning to understand. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge is spiritual knowledge. Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Now, of course, social condition have changed. There are so many factories, and they require technical knowledge. But we are not going to the factories. That is sure and certain. Neither we are going to start any factory. That is not our business. Our factory at most, cut-cut, hut-hut , that's all. We don't want to start . . . (indistinct) . . . factory or Ford factory and make a hell out of life, the hell. Hari-śauri: I used to work in a steelworks. It's worse than hell. Prabhupāda: It is more than hell. There is no life. I have been in Tata steel, iron factory. Oh, I saw it is a hell. One melting pot just like a skyscraper building. You have seen? Hari-śauri: I used to work on them, same thing. I was working where they pour the metal into ingots, into casings, and then when it solidifies they take a chunk of iron out, it's still white hot, and then they put it in ovens. And then after a while, when they need them, they take them out with big cranes and they put them on a series of rollers, and then it goes through a mill, what they call a mill. It's like a big mangling machine, and it crushes the steel ingot into plates, big plates. Then it goes along and it's cut and sent out. It cools down on big banks and it's sent out. So my job was . . . I was doing maintenance fitting on all those machines—on the rollers and on the cranes and on the big mills, like that. It was terrible. We used to work from two o'clock in the afternoon until ten o'clock at night, one shift, then from ten until six, and then from six until two. Prabhupāda: Eight hours. Without any recreation? Hari-śauri: Well, one break, one break, for lunch. It was just indescribable. There's so much heat and fumes, and always covered in oil and grease, crawling around on your hands and knees to fix some machine, or . . . Jagadīśa: All for the advantage of some wealthy man. Prabhupāda: And after this hard labor, his only recreation is wine. Did you drink? Hari-śauri: (laughs) Yes, we used to go straight from the steelworks to the pub, public house. Jagadīśa: I also worked in a factory for a while. Same thing. And people were always getting hurt. Prabhupāda: You are not meant for that. (laughs) Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: I thought you joined from college? Jagadīśa: Yes, but during the summer I had a job in a factory. Prabhupāda: Oh, to get some money. Jagadīśa: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: This girl Elizabeth paid so much money, it is due to Govardhana. Jagadīśa: Due to . . .? Prabhupāda: Govardhana. Jagadīśa: Yes, Ambarīṣa also. Ambarīṣa also has given money due to Govardhana. He's a very gentle soul. Prabhupāda: His behavior is well enough. His background is good service. Therefore I'm asking why he should be changed. Hari-śauri: But if he's not very fixed up, then . . . Prabhupāda: That can be . . . Jagadīśa: One thing, if I had not been tied up in Dallas with gurukula , I could have spent more time in Detroit, and I think that would have helped the situation. Because he was alone, working alone . . . Prabhupāda: Now one thing is that he has given service for the benefit of the Society. Very tangible service. He can be in charge of book distribution. Jagadīśa: Mādhavānanda. *Hari-śauri: Yes, that would be good, if they were co*-managers or something like that. Jagadīśa: Govardhana president? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? You should recognize his service. Hari-śauri: Otherwise he may be dis . . . Prabhupāda: He induced persons to do some . . . that you cannot neglect. (break) Paper men coming? Hari-śauri: Yes, Jayādvaita's going to talk to them a little first, give them prasāda , just explain the basics of the movement so that they, you know, they may be a little favorable. Prabhupāda: . . . they'll understand Hari-śauri: Otherwise, if they just come and go . . . Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to understand that our movement is spiritual movement, and they do not understand what is spiritual, the whole world. That is the defect. But still we are going on. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise, (chuckling) nobody understands what is the aim or what is the platform. (children outside yell "Hare Kṛṣṇa") (laughter) Hari-śauri: It's amazing when you think how we're expanding all the time. It's really amazing. Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Therefore they take us as one of these Gurujī and Bābājī, like this, like that. But when they read our books, higher class, they understand the seriousness of it. They admit that this is India's original, traditional knowledge. Higher, higher circle, they don't want any imitation. Hari-śauri: No. Someone with a little intelligence, he's not befooled by . . . Prabhupāda: No. During British period, high British officers, big, big managers, they liked Indians with original culture. They did not like any Indian with European imitation—pants, coats. They did not like these imitations. My Godbrother, that German, Sadānanda . . . you have heard his name or you have seen him? Jagadīśa: No. Prabhupāda: When he came to India, he was my intimate friend. So he was telling me that, "In our country, when some Indian student comes, especially while returning home after their education, they stop for some time in Germany. We used to inquire from him how much he is aware of his Indian original culture." Because they have got very good respect. All over the world they have got. Even Russia, they have got good respect for Indian culture. They have liked our books only on account of the . . . because the Sanskrit verses are there. They took it, "Oh, it is original." Scholarly people like our book on that account, that we explain original Sanskrit verse. That they have got very good regard, that there is knowledge. They're impressed. And Britishers made propaganda only that India had no culture, almost uncivilized: they push women forcibly in the fire after the death of her husband, and in the temple, the priests, they make all nonsense with women, and so on. This was their . . . just to prove that, "India was uncivilized, and we are making them civilized. By our compassion for the uncivilized persons, we are occupying." Hari-śauri: (laughs) They used to call that the "White man's burden." Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So these English people, they were very expert in making propaganda. They killed Hitler by propaganda. I don't think Hitler was so bad man. What do you think? (laughs) You are Englishman. (laughter) Hari-śauri: I can . . . (laughs) Just from hearing you speak in the last few months I can understand that the whole history that I was ever presented in school is completely warped around to the way that the English saw it, especially the last two centuries, when the British Empire was on the move. It's completely . . . Prabhupāda: But actually, the war was between Germany and England. Others joined, some interest or something. Actually, the war was to be fought between England and Germany. Jagadīśa: There's one devotee who joined in Toronto, Frenchman, and he was in France at the time of the war. He's an older man. And he told me also . . . his father was French, but he was sympathetic to the Nazis, and that it was actually Maxmillian or one of the Frenchmen who sided with the British, but the majority of the French people didn't mind the German occupation. It was due to one of the political factions siding with the British that there was a French underground and . . . Prabhupāda: France, they are always enemy of Englishmen. There is is old history—Hundred Years War, Seven Years War. Napoleon also wanted to cut down the Britishers. France is dead enemy of England, and there is always competition. Hari-śauri: Even just with de Gaulle also. Prabhupāda: France is not friendly to India, uh, England. Hari-śauri: England has always been inimical with the rest of Europe—with Germany, France, Spain, everyone. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they thought, "This is a third*-class nation, a small island, fishermen, and they have . . . (indistinct) . . .?" That is natural. (laughs) Whole world. In our childhood, we used to see map, almost whole world red—red means British. (laughter) They said that there was no sunset in the British Empire. Jagadīśa: This Frenchman also says that he . . . Prabhupāda: German people still hate England. They do not like to speak in English; *that I have seen. In the bank they know English, but they won't speak it. (laughs) English everyone knows. That Kaiser was against. They said that Kaiser is the grandson of Queen Victoria, from daughter's side. And King George from the son's side—Edward's seventh's son. They were cousin*-brothers. So this Kaiser, when he was young boy, went to paternal uncle's house, when he was a young boy. So there was some playing, cut with a knife. So royal family, so many doctors came. So the boy was saying: "Why you are trying to cure it? Let the English blood go away." (laughs) So from the childhood he was so inimical that, "I have got some English blood in my body—my mother is English, father German—so let the English blood go away." I do not know if that is fact; I heard it. (laughs) Maybe. It is joking also and serious. *In our childhood, in the school, a book was there, England's Work in India . One Mr. M. Ghosh, he wrote this book just to flatter the Englishmen. This, that "White man's burden." And it was the impression in those days: just to become like Englishmen, that is civilization. The Parsis in Bombay, they were the first*-class flatterer, imitation, how to become like English lords, barons. This Tata factory was started by such ambition. They wanted to be English baron, lord, industrialist. In Calcutta also. Where our temple is, that is called sāhīb quarter. In our childhood we used to say sāhīb quarter. Sāhīb quarter means European neighborhood. They say our temple is sāhīb mandira in Māyāpur. And in Vṛndāvana, aṇgrejī mandira . The same impression. To become sāhīb , that was great prestigious. Yes. (laughs) Hari-śauri: They actually had no resources whatsoever, the British. They had no resources whatsoever. *Prabhupāda: That was the mission of Hitler that, "These people are shopkeepers' nation, fisherman's nation. How they have become so big? This must be finished." Because their business was being hampered by the Britishers. In India we have seen. German and Japan, very cheap and first*-class goods they will supply. The Britishers would not allow. Hari-śauri: Yes, at that time, anything that was made in England automatically was considered first class. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, any rascal thing. They made a good market. And British Empire means to sell their goods. And they, for that purpose, they became rich. Money was drawn from all parts, especially from India. Everything. Later on, gradually we came to understand. In Lucknow, because I was in medical business, so I saw one Japanese salesman was selling one medicine, one or two items, potassiodide. Do you know? No. Potassium iodide. And another, iodine. He was selling at four rupees, eight annas a pound. But we were accustomed to purchase English potassiodide and iodine, thirteen rupees a pound. That Howard's. Very famous, Howard's Chemicals, like that. They were selling. So I doubted that "How so much cheap this Japanese firm can supply?" And they used to advertise that all these Japanese goods are third class. Hari-śauri: There was big propaganda. Prabhupāda: Yes, "German goods are second class. Our goods, first class." So I inquired from the salesman, "How is it that you are supplying so cheap?" "They're supplying . . . the price is the real price." "Now, why they charge more?" "They purchase from us and pack and sell." There are many big chemical concerns in Germany. Germans are very good manufacturers, especially of chemicals, iron, machine. Still you find, all this Uher and, what is called, Gundsag? Hari-śauri: Grundig. *Prabhupāda: They're all German. All first*-class machine you'll find. This Mercedes motorcar, they're all German. They don't manufacture third-class thing. Everything they manufacture first class. Still, the Germans suffered so much, but when I was in Germany I saw they are very prosperous. (pause) Hari-śauri: Now we have to get them interested in your books. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Germans. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: I don't think we have any reviews from any big German scholars yet. Prabhupāda: But if they have ordered for their textbook, that order will be . . . Hari-śauri: East Germany, yes. Prabhupāda: Their order itself will be a testimony, if they order in their own form, "Supply this." Max Mueller was German. So long we are in this material world, this competition, animosity . . . even in the higher planetary system, there is no peaceful condition. (pause) Jagadīśa: You're feeling headache? (Prabhupāda has very bad toothache) Prabhupāda: No, there is some pain. My teeth are now useless. So it is all rotten now. Sometimes it becomes acute. There is no strength in the teeth. Some of them, fifty percent, have already fallen, therefore I cannot eat. Jagadīśa: I think that a very nutritious diet can be made just from liquids. Prabhupāda: Liquids, yes. Milk is the best food. Children, when there is no teeth, milk is the food. In Western country also, I think old men, they take milk and puffed rice. Is it? Hari-śauri: Yes. Soft foods, anyway. Prabhupāda: In India, especially in Bengal, there is a preparation, it is softer than the puffed rice— khai , fused rice. That is very good. Light, at the same time soft purgative. That milk mixed with is a very good food for old men. Hari-śauri: In that newspaper article in the Butler Eagle , that very first article when you just arrived that we saw? They showed that copy in Los Angeles. It mentioned, the reporter there, he quoted you as saying that—you were telling him about milk, how good it was—and he quoted you as saying that milk is the miracle food for babies and old men. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. No, it may be there are so many other food, but cent percent of the human society, everyone has some way or other taken milk. So morally, cow is our mother. How these mothers are being killed? That is the question. Where is morality? Where is . . .? And they are drawing last drop of the milk. And there is necessity of milk. "After taking whatever money you have got . . . take, and I shall kill you." What is this? Horrible society. If I take from you whatever you have got in your pocket and then I kill you, what is this society? Jagadīśa: The only thing that stops them from killing each other is that there are certain laws. Otherwise, I'm sure that the human beings are so barbaric that they would kill each other. Hari-śauri: Actually, they are making adjustments to the law so that they can do that. *Prabhupāda: Yes, in India, in Vṛndāvana, they are killing now for a little money. They are so poverty*-stricken. They have got a clique. Because in Vṛndāvana there are many retired men; they get some money from bank or some saving bank in post office. And they have got clique with this post office man and the bank clerk who has taken money. Bon Mahārāja was attacked. He brought some one lakh rupees, one and a half lakh rupees for some . . . he was recognized by the . . . so as soon, at night—he was living in the Institute—attacked, in the presence of police. Police was guarding that others may not come to help. Hari-śauri: The police were helping the thieves? Prabhupāda: Yes. I think the magistrate even was complicated. And when it was complained, the magistrate said: "Better not to take it seriously; it will be your . . . I'll give you some guard." That's all. Hari-śauri: They'll do anything for money. *Prabhupāda: Now, in the Kali*-yuga, things will degrade so low that if I see I have no money and if you have got some few cents with you, I shall kill you and take it. That day will come. Very dangerous condition is coming forward. Yes, if things go on like this . . . just like we saw in Detroit, the whole city is dangerously situated. Therefore nobody purchased that house. Jagadīśa: Eighty percent of the people in the city are black. Prabhupāda: And the white men, they are very much afraid of these black men. They have to be afraid. Jagadīśa: They've taken over the city. *Prabhupāda: Without them, the factories cannot go on. That's all. The white men cannot work so hard. How they . . .? No gentleman can do that. This kind of work is meant for the fourth*-class, fifth-class men. Therefore they cannot say anything. They require. And they know that their money will be taken away again by supplying them wine. They'll pay, and next moment, the wine merchant will take away. And the government will get huge profit without doing anything. And excise tax. Excise tax, government hasn't got to invest or do anything—simply take the tax. Hari-śauri: Every time they put a tax increase, it's always on beer and cigarettes. Always, every time. And motorcars. Because they know the people are so much addicted that even if they squeeze and squeeze and squeeze, they will still get more, and the people will still pay. Prabhupāda: And addicted people, they, they're after the . . . get money some way or other, beg, borrow or steal. So these black men especially, they are expert. They are not expert in begging, but borrowing and stealing. Jagadīśa: Is it possible, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will, in the future, turn the tide and gain predominating influence? Change . . . Prabhupāda: Thing is that if the leaders of the society, they come to their consciousness, that this way the society cannot be peaceful, the way they are now conducting . . . if they have brain . . . just like the other day, the Christian priest, he was speaking of disabled men. You were present? "I challenge you, what do you mean by disabled man? If one man has lost his arm, can you supply it?" Then he stopped. Hari-śauri: He was finished when you told him it was all imaginary. Prabhupāda: Yes, actually. What you can do? Jagadīśa: Other than yourself, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no one in the world has a vision how to save the world. Prabhupāda: Because I honestly think of it. Maybe others are also honest, but they do not know the right way. How they can be honest? Just like this Communist movement, now they are favoring the labor class and rejecting the capitalist class altogether. They cannot make any adjustment. Jagadīśa: I've understood that communism is presented by the administrative class when there is a condition of scarcity. When there is opulence, then there is room for personal, individual enterprise, but when there is scarcity, that cannot be encouraged, and the common people have to be subjugated. So capitalism and communism are both simply philosophies how to keep the common man satisfied. So it's simply another means of exploitation. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is exploitation, and actually they have done it. Hari-śauri: There is still one class of men living at the expense of another, whether it's Communist or capitalist . . . (end) Conversation -- June 18, 1976, Toronto Prabhupāda: If we say all these things, they will cut my head. (laughs) Therefore I don't say in the public meeting all these things. But it is actually dog's race. No value. Actually, no value. We cannot give any value to this type of civilization, running like dog with car. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember in South Africa, though, Prabhupāda, you called them, (laughs) at every meeting, dogs and cats. And afterward they were always applauding. (claps) Hari-śauri: He did that. (laughing) You did that in South India as well. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think that if . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, when I come in emotion, I cannot check to speak the truth. But actually it is the fact. I cannot give any credit to these rascals (laughs) who are running at high speed, big, big car. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What did we read? There was an article about Mars today. Hari-śauri: Oh. Nonsense. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The scientists, again . . . *Hari-śauri: They were speculating about . . . they sent this spaceship to Mars, and they were speculating that maybe now the so*-called smog that covers the surface of the planet, it could be fog. It could be made of ice and water particles. So now they . . . so they were speculating like that. And then they said they were going to land the spaceship in a valley at a certain point that is four miles deep and that may . . . it may have been filled with water fifty thousand years ago, and it could have fossils in it from the type of life that existed there, if it existed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fifty thousand years ago. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Scientist rascal. How ludicrous. Simply "maybe," "if it was" and "it will be." That's all. Simply "maybe." Hari-śauri: Yes. They were speculating about, even they didn't know what the atmosphere was, and yet they know . . . yet they were stating that they were going to land this spaceship at a certain point just below the Martian equator in a valley which is just at the mouth of the valley, which is four miles deep. Prabhupāda: And people are taking, "Oh, it is scientific research." Hari-śauri: They are such rascals. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This cheating has to stop. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This cheating has to be stopped. Hari-śauri: And actually, on the same page, what was that, the percentage of scientists who are engaged in warfare? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Forty percent of all the scientists in the world, the estimate is, are engaged in making weapons. And it said that since the end of World War II, six trillion dollars, which is six thousand billion dollars, have been spent on armament in the world. Hari-śauri: In the West. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The West, did it say? *Prabhupāda: In India have no money. They can't get. (laughs) They have no sufficient money to eat even. Still they are spending more than fifty percent, fifty*-four percent. *Hari-śauri: They estimate there's four hundred thousand so*-called scientists working on armament. Prabhupāda: Working on? Hari-śauri: Armament. Weapons. Weapon development. Defense. They call it defense measures. Prabhupāda: Just see. Why defense? Man to man. That means they are dogs. The dogs defend from another dog. Is it not? As soon as they see another dog, " Yow, yow, yow. " So then where is the defense between man to man? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're worried now that they won't be able to disarm, the article was saying, because, somehow or another, there's going to be a disaster unless there is immediate disarmament. But they don't think it's possible. Prabhupāda: No. How they can disarm? They have been trained up like dogs to bark and fight. How there can be disarmament? Hari-śauri: They've been talking about disarmament for who knows how long. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: They've been talking about disarmament for years and years together. But they're simply increasing. There's no disarmament. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even within the different religions they are fighting amongst each other. Prabhupāda: No, no. This religion is also bogus. How the dogs can understand religion? It is simply woax. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Simply? Prabhupāda: Woax, woax. What is called? Woax? Hari-śauri: Wasp? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like a bee? *Prabhupāda: No, no. Colossal woax. H*-o-a-x. Find out this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: H? *Prabhupāda: H*-o-a-x. Hari-śauri: Hoax. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hoax! Joke. Hari-śauri: Everything's just a bluff. Just a show. Prabhupāda: Hoax, yes. *Hari-śauri: Rubber*-stamping. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (reading from dictionary) Hoax means "To deceive, take in, sometimes by way of joke, humorous or mischievous deception." *Prabhupāda: Vibhrama . The Sanskrit is vibhrama*-milita-kriyā. The ārambha, ārambha means endeavor, very gorgeous. The result is sand and rocks. Going to the moon planet, the ārambha was so much expensive. And the result is to bring some sand and rocks. This is hoax. And another: parvatān muṣika bhavaḥ . Hoax . . . (indistinct) . . . like that. There was a great advertisement that the Himalayan mountain is going to deliver a child. So people gathered on, to see, "Oh, such a big mountain. The child must be a very big child." So they went to see there, and they saw one rat is coming from the hole of . . . a rat is coming. They expected another Himalayan mountain, and they saw from the holes, one rat is coming. This is going on. And they are satisfied: "Now the Himalaya has delivered the child." One rat. (laughs) This attempt is like Himalaya begetting a child. If some elephant would have come, it would have saved the . . . not even elephant; one rat. And in English, another is, "Much ado about nothing." Hari-śauri: Shakespeare. Prabhupāda: Yes. The result is nothing. What is the meaning of "ado"? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Endeavor. Prabhupāda: Endeavor. Yes. So these things are like that. Not sober. Dhīras tatra na muhyati ( BG 2.13). They are not sober. Adhīra . Therefore they meet with so many accidents. (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa) You also. As soon as one is in the car, he wants to drive at a hundred miles speed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think it was token punishment, but I'm sorry that you were in the car. Prabhupāda: (laughs) What is the use? You are not going to serve anyone that we have to go high speed. We can go comfortably. Hari-śauri: We can make our own pace. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara also. When he was driving seventy miles. And what you are doing? What is that? This country, Portland. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oregon? From Eugene to Oregon. Prabhupāda: Oregon, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I was in the car with you in the back seat. Prabhupāda: Oh, you were in the car? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They all fell asleep. I was chanting. You were sitting. You didn't even go to sleep that night. (laughs) Even though it was late at night, it was about eleven, twelve, one o'clock at night, you didn't want to stay at that bhogī yogī house. I remember that. And he drove very, very fast back to Portland. That was a very nice engagement. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That was Śyāmasundara's father's car. So he's a good driver, (laughter) but very dangerous driver. I do not know. Śyāmasundara, his father is a rich man, lawyer, got good estate, and he's the only son. He did not like to stay with father. Hari-śauri: No one in the West likes to stay with their parents. Prabhupāda: Two sisters, very beautiful girls. They're unhappy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're unhappy? Prabhupāda: Yes. His two sisters. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember he was preaching to them. At least one of them that came to the temple that time. She came to that program. Prabhupāda: She first of all came in London. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: She was piano player. Prabhupāda: Anyway, they're artists. They're artists. They're not happy. Divorced. His mother is very gentle, I have seen. Father is also respectable man. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Family life in the West is disastrous. Prabhupāda: The father wants to get them back at home, but they don't . . . the father is also taking pills for sleeping. (laughs) Father is also not happy. Hari-śauri: That's the thing. In the West, even though the opulence is there, the children can see the parents are not happy. The parents are always full of anxiety. So even though the parents want the children to stay at home, the children, they resent that, because they can see that, "You have nothing to offer. It's just a facade." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't want to become like their parents. They don't see that their parents are a desirable example to follow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Wine and sex. They see from childhood. One boy, our Rancor, so his father and mother divorced, and he was young child. He was the first child of his mother. And the mother, he said, would daily bring new friend. So he could understand. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A new woman. Prabhupāda: Not new woman. His mother, he was under the care of mother. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, mother had new husbands, new boyfriends. Prabhupāda: Daily, night. And he was shocked. One of my Gauḍīya Maṭha Godbrothers, big, he became the head of this Bhag Bazaar Gauḍīya Maṭha. So his wife was debauched, and she was bringing new paramour, and the child protested. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: New? Prabhupāda: Paramour. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Paramour. Prabhupāda: Yes and the boy, he was ten years or twelve years old, he could understand, "Who is this man?" So he protested and said: "I shall tell all these things to my father." And he was killed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The boy was killed? Prabhupāda: By the mother. Hari-śauri: She murdered him? Prabhupāda: Yes. Killed means given poison. And the father, that is, my Godbrother, seeing this, he also took poison. This is the end of Gauḍīya Maṭha scandal. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He also . . . he was also one of the trustees. This Tīrtha Mahārāja was a trustee, and another Godbrother and this man. In the beginning, they were made trustees. In the beginning, Prabhupāda was to undergo surgical operation. So he was a little nervous, that "I may die." So he made a scrap paper, that "In case I die, these three disciples will be trustees of the Gauḍīya Maṭha Institute." That's all. So this Kuñja Bābu kept this. There are many long histories. So one of the so*-called trustees was this Vāsudeva. So he died. His end was like this. His son was killed, isn't it? Prabhupāda: His wife was a regular prostitute, and she killed her child, and on this shock, he took poison and died. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He killed himself. Oh. Prabhupāda: Naturally he became shocked that, "This is my family life—the wife is prostitute and son is killed. What is the value of my life?" This was his spiritual realization. Just see. (laughs) And he was made the chief, and one of the supporter was Śrīdhara Mahārāja. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vāsudeva Śrīdhara? Prabhupāda: No, no. He was made chief. Guru Mahārāja did not make him chief. But after his passing away, some of our Godbrothers voted him chief. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Am I mis . . .? You had told me once—I'm not certain; maybe I made a mistake—you said that Vāsudeva, it was known fact that he was homosex? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vāsudeva. Prabhupāda: He was homosex and sex, everything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in this city . . . I haven't been back in so many years to America. Things have become more degraded. I'm watching women and women walking arm around each other. And I asked: "What is this?" "Oh," he says: "They are lesbians." Women together, girlfriends. They don't mix with men. Prabhupāda: This is now very much prevalent in America. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No higher consciousness. Prabhupāda: I had one disciple, she was for that purpose. Just see. Satsvarūpa: So one professor is already here. Prabhupāda: Let him come. Satsvarūpa: This is Shivaram. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Should I turn this light on? Prabhupāda: Yes. You also sit down. Note down. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I want to get the newspapers that you wanted. (break) Prabhupāda: So what can I do? (laughs) Jayādvaita: I'll speak to Rāmeśvara and see if we can do something to publish it. (break) Prabhupāda: I began with these men are running on car and the dog is running on leg, where is the difference? His running by car is his advancement of civilization. They are taking running by car, never mind the passenger is a dog. (laughter) But the passenger is running on car, a dog, therefore he's a dog. Jayādvaita: They use these cars for running after women. Prabhupāda: That is the same thing. Just like dog runs after. Hari-śauri: What will the program be? Won't Prabhupāda speak down there also? Prabhupāda: What is speaking? Hari-śauri: I'll just see if everything is ready. (break) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation Home Engagement -- June 19, 1976, Toronto Prabhupāda: Who will talk? You can speak. Satsvarūpa: So last year, at this time, a year ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda came to Śubhavilāsa's house as part of his visit to Toronto. At that time Toronto ISKCON had only a small temple which they'd had for years, on Gerrard Street. All the devotees were very enthusiastic, but their place was not such a nice facility. So Śrīla Prabhupāda visited and came here, and many members of the Indian community and other members of the Toronto community came, and Śrīla Prabhupāda spoke here. At the end of his talk, one man asked Śrīla Prabhupāda that, "We are very glad that you have come. Now you please come back again. When will you return again?" Śrīla Prabhupāda said: "I will return when you get a big temple for this center." He had seen different temples, including this big church, so Śrīla Prabhupāda's invitation to them was that they should make collection to purchase this temple. So Śubhavilāsa and Viśvakarma and all the devotees actually worked so hard, and by Kṛṣṇa's grace they were able to purchase this temple. So we can see that it is the desire of the pure devotee. Whatever Kṛṣṇa wants, He does not have to work at all. His desires are immediately fulfilled simply by His desiring. Everything is fulfilled. By Kṛṣṇa's finger signal the whole material creation is created, brought about, and it's maintained by His separate energies. And everything is annihilated by Kṛṣṇa's will and created again. So . . . and Kṛṣṇa, He is fulfilling all His infinite desires in the spiritual world also. So as Kṛṣṇa's desires are immediately fulfilled, the pure devotee's desires are also fulfilled. That's because he is one with the Lord. His interests are the same are Kṛṣṇa's. This is the oneness, that the pure devotee has no desire but to see that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And so by Śrīla Prabhupāda's desiring this to come about, praying to Kṛṣṇa, therefore the devotees also praying and endeavoring have brought about that now Toronto is situated in such a nice temple, and just since opening that temple now so many new devotees have come and joined. So it's now very firmly situated in this big North American city to go on spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *So we should be always so grateful to Śrīla Prabhupāda, not only for coming and visiting us in our temples, whereby we can actually see in this instance how by his visit this came about, that a year later now such a big, big temple is there . . . that anyone can plainly see. It is phenomenal. It can be seen. But also we should be grateful that by his instructions . . . because the physical presence is not always appreciable. Sometimes he is here and some, then he is not here. But always Śrīla Prabhupāda is with us by our following his instructions. We simply have to be obedient to these instructions. As Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying last night in the initiation lecture, that human life is meant to follow these instructions of tapo*-divyam ( SB 5.5.1), going to the difficulty of giving up sinful habits, meat-eating, illicit sex, intoxication, gambling, and engaging in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we do these things very sincerely, then we shall always have Śrīla Prabhupāda guiding us. Kṛṣṇa is in the heart, and when Kṛṣṇa in the heart sees that we are trying to follow the instructions of the pure devotee, who's also a manifestation of Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa within is the Supersoul. Kṛṣṇa manifested before us is the spiritual master. So the Lord within the heart will see that we are trying to follow the instructions of the spiritual master and will enlighten us how to always stay strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, how to always feel the direct association and direction of the spiritual master by obedience to his instructions. So all these things we'll realize more and more if we simply faithfully stick to Prabhupāda's instruction, and his main instruction is that we simply all be happy and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: You can . . . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can appreciate the temples that Śrīla Prabhupāda has established all over the world when we compare the material life, as going on today, with the life we live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Presently in this world, the Kali*-yuga is so much manifest. We can see that year by year things are becoming more and more degraded, not in arithmetic proportion but even in geometric proportions. So rapidly everywhere society is decaying and people are becoming more and more just like animals, exactly like animals—simply interested in eating, simply interested in sex life, simply interested in trying somehow or another to find some object to gratify the senses. But in the temple we can practically experience a different quality of life altogether. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is establishing the internal potency of the Lord within this material world in the form of his temples. Kṛṣṇa says, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13), that persons who are always glorifying Kṛṣṇa, they live in the internal potency of the Lord. And practically in our temples, glorification of Kṛṣṇa, by the order of our spiritual master, is going on. We can understand practically that to live in the temple is to live in the internal potency of the Lord—is very rare opportunity. We can see practically that there are so many billions and billions of people in the world suffering without any opportunity even of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *So just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even at this advanced age, in spite of so many difficulties . . . just like I'm somehow or another Śrīla Prabhupāda's secretary, and I'm always trying to arrange for his physical comforts. But he's always saying: "To preach means to accept discomfort," that for an older person to travel on airplanes and to always move about and to go here and there for the service of the Lord is naturally more difficult than for a very young person. But Prabhupāda is accepting this uncomfortable situation simply to establish Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout the world, at least to give people the opportunity that, "Choose, if you like, between the internal potency and the external potency." The external potency means that you're forced. We have no choice. We're forced to undergo repetition of birth and death. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Nobody likes to grow old, but this youthful age, soon it will become old age. And nobody likes to die. So present-day civilization is blindly going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās: (SB 7.5.31) the blind leading the blind. People are thinking that, "My parents did it. Their parents did it. Generations have done it. So also we engage blindly in materialistic way of life and everything will be okay." But the result is that everyone is simply suffering, and after this lifetime they also have to suffer the consequences of this present life's activities blindly, not knowing that they're responsible for their activities. *So we have a choice now whether to follow a representative of God, Kṛṣṇa, who can bring us to the internal potency of the Lord. This internal potency is not dry. It is the origin of bliss, sac*-cid-ānanda-vigraha (BS 5.1). It is not impersonal, void, lifeless, without any happiness. It is what everyone is actually looking for, simply pervertedly within this material world. So this opportunity is here. Before Prabhupāda came to the Western countries, actually there was no hope. There was no hope at all. There was no such knowledge, there was no such opportunity to choose between material life and something else. There was no reality other than this body, and for everyone it was simply a very hopeless, distressful situation. But Prabhupāda personally, even at advanced age, he's coming simply to give this opportunity to the Westerners and to everyone throughout the world, that besides this material life, there is another, eternal life, and if you utilize your independence very carefully to transfer your attachment to this internal potency of devotional service and service to the Vaiṣṇavas and to Kṛṣṇa, then you can become free forever from the encumbrance of repeated birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the great fortune that has come upon us in the form of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, in the form of association with the pure devotee, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and in the form of chanting the holy name. In so many ways we are being benedicted, and if we can simply remain fixed in the pure knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and we don't become illusioned by this material energy, thinking just like the animal that there's some happiness there . . . the animal is running after the mirage, but there's no water there. Similarly the foolish human beings, as Prabhupāda aptly mentioned the other day to these professors who came to visit him, the dog is running with four legs, here and there, very, very busy, and the human being also he's running, but he's running in an automobile with four wheels. But he's thinking that his running is superior to the dog's running. Why? He's very busy running here and there for the same activities, and the dog is running with four legs. The activities are the same. So without culture the running in the car and the running of the dog is the same. So this Kṛṣṇa culture is now being spread all throughout the world. It's giving people to see how actually human life should be lived. And the temple is a place where practically we can set an ideal example of human life for the whole of human society. Therefore we're greatly indebted to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Jagadīśa, you can. Jagadīśa: *In the world, in the material world, there are two kinds of persons: devotees and the demons. Devotees are those who have understood the existence of the Supreme Lord and are engaged somehow or other in His service, and the demons are those who reject the service of the Lord. In the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad*-gītā this is described: catur-vidhā bhajante mām (BG 7.16). There are four types of people who surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So those who are in distress, those who are in search of money, those who are inquisitive and those who are searching after the Absolute Truth, so these four kinds of persons, when given the opportunity, will take shelter of the Supreme Lord. And the other four kinds of persons are called, are described in Bhagavad-gītā . . . Prabhupāda: Duṣkṛtina . Jagadīśa: Duṣkṛtina. *Hari-śauri: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. Jagadīśa: What's the first? Those who are mūḍha , foolish, grossly foolish; those who are narādhama , those who are lowest of mankind; *those who are māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā , those whose knowledge is stolen by illusion; *those, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ , those who are of the atheistic nature of demons. These four kinds of persons do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. In the purport in Bhagavad*-gītā Śrīla Prabhupāda has explained that practically 99.9% of the human population fits in these categories, will not surrender unto the Supreme Lord. Therefore the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is formed to give opportunity to those who choose to surrender to the Lord to associate with one another, to cooperate together in serving the mission of the Lord. *The material world is created for a specific purpose by the Supreme Lord. That purpose is to give a chance to the forgetful living beings who have tried to exercise independence from Kṛṣṇa to once again understand their position. They're put into various conditions of material existence in order to learn that they are not the enjoyers and controllers. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer. Param īśvara. He's the supreme controller. Everything is meant for His satisfaction. In Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa is described, describes Himself, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8) that, "All material and spiritual worlds are created by Me. Everything is emanating from Me." So created by Kṛṣṇa for His pleasure, just as a father or a man takes a wife and has children and gets a house, and he expands himself in this way for enjoyment. He tries to enjoy by expanding his influence in the material world. So this is because he's part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and he has the same tendency as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer, and He has expanded Himself in multi-energies to enjoy Himself, and the conditioned souls are also part of that multifarious energy. They are called marginal, jīva-śakti , and that means they can go one way or the other. They can choose to use their independence to please Kṛṣṇa or they can choose to use their independence otherwise. That otherwise means that they must come to the material world. That is Kṛṣṇa's purpose in creating the material world—to give a chance to these foolish living entities to revive their eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. *So within human society . . . this is also stated in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā , manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3): "Out of many thousands of men, one may endeavor for perfection. And of many such perfected men, hardly one knows Me in truth." So the material world is a very dangerous place. The living beings within the material world are kṣatram . They do not know the purpose of life. They are simply interested in their own advancement, somehow or other. So they engage in all kinds of destructive activities which cause harm to themselves and to others. So this is the condition of the material world. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda has stated that this is no place for a gentleman. In the material world everyone is, just as we are observing . . . I was visiting the Kṛṣṇa consciousness farm in British Columbia, and on the road we were passing large herds of beef cows. We were discussing that the farmer thinks of these cows not as spirit souls but as commodities. He simply puts them in a field to eat, and when they get big enough, kills them and takes the money for his enjoyment. He doesn't see that these are living entities, spirit souls. So this activity of the human beings, killing the cows, helpless cows by the thousands daily, is causing the . . . or is an indication that there is no merciful quality in the human beings. They are simply interested in their own aggrandizement and welfare. If they don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the only alternative. Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes and canvasses, and He tells the conditioned souls, "You must surrender to Me." And if one chooses not to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that means that he himself wants to become Kṛṣṇa—without any qualification. The spirit soul is infinitesimal spark of Kṛṣṇa. And that spark, when not in touch with Kṛṣṇa, the fire, becomes like the sparks of the fire not in contact with the fire: extinguished. So there is no good qualities for the living beings who are outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So the four types of men who surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they're doing so with some selfish interest. All of the conditioned souls are acting for their own selfish interest. They do not know otherwise. But somehow or other, if one of the conditioned souls will surrender to Kṛṣṇa by the grace of a pure devotee, then that immediately puts him into a situation of becoming purified. The greatest purification is to come in touch with a pure devotee of the Lord. There are many, many ritualistic activities prescribed in the Vedic literatures for gradual purification. But, as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī points out in his Upadeśāmṛta , what is the good of undergoing so much atonement and pious activity if the heart remains contaminated and the living entity remains sinful, ready to . . . just acting for his own benefit? Therefore the greatest opportunity for the conditioned soul is when he gets the chance to associate with a pure devotee of the Lord. *The pure devotee of the Lord instructs the conditioned soul to engage in activities just to please Kṛṣṇa, as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī explains. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11), without any separate interest, no mixture of jñāna or karma , no desire for sense gratification or acquisition of knowledge, just to engage in activities for the pleasure of the Supreme. This is the perfection. Otherwise, without coming in touch with a pure devotee of the Lord no one could understand this. And especially in this age of Kali, when the human society is so degraded that if it weren't for some laws prohibiting, and even despite those laws, the human beings are engaged in cut-throat activities, killing one another. Just like this abortion. Now they've passed some law which allows killing. So now it is going on, wholesale slaughtering, by mothers of their own children. This is the condition of human society. *So the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is specifically formed by Śrīla Prabhupāda to help those of us who are lost and entangled in this material condition to associate with one another under his guidance and achieve, by this process recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, chanting the holy name, we can achieve rapid purification, and in this one lifetime, Śrīla Prabhupāda has promised that we can go back to home, back to Godhead. So we should try to cooperate together. There is no other purpose. Once one comes in touch with the pure devotee and understands his message, and there's no other purpose for living in this material world than to serve the mission of the Lord. And that mission of the Lord, as already explained, is to reclaim the conditioned souls who have fallen into the material world and are lost, helplessly entrapped. So we should try and cooperate together. Learn Śrīla Prabhupāda's instructions very perfectly and try to carry them out, following the four regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds and working together to spread the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world so that its influence can affect all the living beings who are living on the face of the earth. Actually in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī has stated that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will spread all over the universe. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is undoubtedly empowered by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He's doing such wonderful service, spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over this globe, and we should pray that we can help in some small way. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya . *Prabhupāda: So I have heard that there are about fifty thousand Indians in Toronto. So why they are not coming? They want to become bara*-sāhīb only? Śubhavilāsa: Yes, they are here to make the money, that's all they are doing. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) They have no other purpose? So this is not good. What is their objection? They don't want their own culture? This is Indian culture. They should be proud that Indian culture is being accepted by the foreigners. And they are living, they are becoming bara*-sāhīb ? What is this? Now it is your duty to deliver these bara-sāhībs , that they are not taking interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hmm? No, so is there any other outsider Indian present? Indian devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Come here. But you have already joined. (laughter) Devotee: He's . . . (indistinct) . . . from Montreal. Prabhupāda: Your trick. Your trademark is there. ( tilak ) *Indian devotee: Nama oṁ viṣṇu*-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhūtale . . . Devotee: There's Gururaj. They are also chanting sixteen rounds a day now, and he's staying at the temple. Prabhupāda: So he has already joined. I mean those who have not joined. I think this gentleman? I saw him in the morning. So, Kya karan hai je hamara bhartiya log nahi aate hain. (What is the reason that our Indians are not coming?) Indian man (1): This is a very good question. Apne jo pucha . . . kyun nahi aate hain? (The question you have asked . . . why don't they come?) Prabhupāda: Ye to thik nahi hai kyunki . . . (This is not proper because . . .) this is the sign of degradation. So Indians have become so degraded, shall I take it like that? Indian man (1): No, it's not that, but there must be some other reason why they're not coming. *Prabhupāda: What is other reason? There cannot be any reason. Here is temple of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa, and the Bhagavad-gītā is being preached, Bhāgavata is being preached. Why they do not take interest? Indian man (1): I've been coming to temple for six years now here in Toronto. Prabhupāda: Well, you are coming, all right. But I have heard that there are fifty thousand Indians. So why they do not come? Indian man (1): Maybe it's catching up now, more. Prabhupāda: Is there any special reason, they can discuss with me, if one is interested. Indian man (1): Mujhe lagta hai, jaise ho sakta hai ki, jaisa hamara tarika hai ki sadkon pe jake . . ., log isse thoda ghabra jate hain. Kyunki wo sochte hain hamare upare discrimination aayegi. (I feel, it might be possible that, the system which we have of going out on the streets, people might get little nervous. They think that they might receive discrimination upon themselves.) The society here to accept this kind of thing, and people maybe don't want to align themselves with this kind of thing so that they are not ridiculed by others. This could be one of the reasons. Because, you know . . . Prabhupāda: Ridicule? Indian man (1): The method may be, they may think, maybe that it is too strong for people here to accept. Prabhupāda: No, strong, disease bhi to strong hai na. Jaisa disease vaisa davai hona chahiye. Ye jo bhagavan ko bhool jana aur sharab pina maas khana ye disease to he bhari gambhir hai.. (The disease is also strong is it not? According to the disease, the right medicine must be used. This forgetfulness of God and taking intoxicants, eating meat - this disease is very serious.) Jaya , Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): Many of them think we're fanatical, from Western countries. Prabhupāda: Many? jaya Kya karan hai bhartiya log . . . (What is the reason the Indians . . .) Indian man (2): I don't speak Hindi. I'm from South America, British Guinea. Prabhupāda: So what is the reason the Indians are not coming in large numbers? They are coming, some. Indian man (1): I think they are too much in māyā . (laughter) Indian man (2): They want to be Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (1): Everybody wants to be Kṛṣṇa themselves. Prabhupāda: Rascal. (laughter) Everyone wants to become a rascal. Don't be that. Indian man (1): Ve to inse bhi aage badh gaye hain, Americans se, unse bhi jyada khana pina shuru kar diye hain. (They have even gone ahead than the Americans, they have started to eat meat and consume alcohol more than these Americans.) Prabhupāda: Ye sab mayavadi ye log ko sikha diya sab jahanoom me jane ke liye. (All these Mayavadis have taught them to go to hell.) This is not good. Everyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa. Śubhavilāsa: Or they're seeking for Kṛṣṇa in the material world. Prabhupāda: Wo pahad utha sakta hai kya Krishna jaisa? (Can he lift the mountain like Kṛṣṇa?) As Kṛṣṇa lifted the Govardhana Hill at seven years old, so can he do that? Then how he'll become Kṛṣṇa? Simply by imagination. Kuch kar ke to dikhao. Ye sab badmaashi kharab kar diya hai Hindu society ko. (Show me by doing something. All this bullying has ruined the Hindu society. Indian man (1): There are too many sections of religion, Hindu religion. *Prabhupāda: There cannot be any section. There are two section, demons and the demigods. That is the statement in the śāstra . Dvau bhūta*-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca (BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva and āsura . Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ . So if they want to remain demons, that is their choice. But that will not help them. Indian man (1): Most fortunate men try to follow Kṛṣṇa. The unfortunate try to follow . . . Prabhupāda: So anyway, now it is Śubhavilāsa Prabhu's duty to bring these imitation Kṛṣṇas. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (3): : Many, many good bhaktas are being spoiled by impersonalists nowadays . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. You are personalist or impersonalist? He is personalist. (laughter) Hari*-nāma karo mala hai to japo. (Do harinam , if you have beads then chant.) So, another kīrtana ? (end) Conversation -- June 21, 1976, Toronto (Conversation in Airport and Car) (at airport; noise of airport announcements throughout) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . Chapter: *This is the dharma , and Kṛṣṇa comes personally to establish it. And He makes distinction in the Fourth Chapter, dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, abhyutthānam adharmasya (BG 4.7). He distinguishes between adharma and dharma . And He's establishing at the end of Ninth Chapter that the dharma is to become His devotee, to think of Him, to worship Him and to offer all obeisances to Him. And that persons who reject this dharma or who have no information of this dharma , they have to revolve in the cycle of birth and death, not achieving Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: The beginning is to understand this transmigration. But actually people do not understand. Cycle of birth and death . . . if one does not understand what is birth and death, what he'll understand of cycle of birth and death? Mostly because they do not understand what is birth and what is death, they are mostly going on on the bodily concept of life. That is animal life. Ask anybody. Bodily concept. And everything is going on. We pass through Canada to USA. Why Canada? Why USA? This bodily concept. It is meant for the Canadians, it is meant for USA, Americans. Immigration, customs—the same mentality as a dog coming from other neighborhood. The other dogs, they all come together, " Yow, yow! Why you have come? Why you have come?" In civilized dress only. This is the position. What is the difference between the dog's mentality . . . when another dog comes to another neighborhood, these neighborhood dogs, you know that? All animals, " Yow! Why you have come?" So this department, "Why you have come here?" dogs barking, and this immigration, what is the difference? Is there any difference? Devotee: There is no difference. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) This is our policy. Very difficult. (break) . . . they will understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Their mentality is not better than the animals. Hari-śauri: It's probably a lot worse. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Worse, because animal has got some limit, but a human being who has developed consciousness, it is unlimited. Just like a thief is thief, but when an attorney*-in-law is a thief, he's a very big thief. Huh? (airport announcement) Hari-śauri: When a man's educated to know the difference . . . Prabhupāda: Ordinary thief and a educated thief. In your country there are many lawyers. Their only business is how to cheat. Hari-śauri: Every lawyer. Because they're trying to make money as well, only they're in a better position. Prabhupāda: Big, big lawyers, through this real estatement. I have got bitter experience. People go to real estate man, he has got, say, five thousand dollars, and he wants to purchase one hundred thousand worth property. And they'll say: "Yes. We shall arrange." He will, in such a way, implicate, that he will take this five thousand dollars, and it will be divided amongst them. He will not give anything. Hari-śauri: We lost quite a bit of property in Detroit because of that lawyer of Ambarīṣa's. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: That lawyer of Ambarīṣa's, when they did the Detroit deal, they said they lost quite a bit of movable property because the lawyer did a deal with the real estate agent to take it away for himself. He got that boat very cheap, and other things also. Prabhupāda: Lawyer is thief, medical man is thief. Hari-śauri: All thieves. They're all thieves. Prabhupāda: Then whom to believe? Whom to believe, this is the question. Hari-śauri: The general public, they are becoming very bitter, very frustrated, because they can't turn to anyone for protection anymore. The government is the biggest thief. *Prabhupāda: Dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ . It is stated that all government men will be rogues and thieves. Rājanyair dasyu-dharmabhiḥ (SB 12.2.8). Rājanyaiḥ means government men, and dasyu-dharma means practiced to roguery, thieves. Hari-śauri: In America police are well known for being corrupt. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. In India. Police means everyone takes, first of all . . . (indistinct) Viśvakarmā: They can be saved only by your mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and the mercy of Lord Caitanya. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa only you are saved. Otherwise, our Bombay construction was rejected by the police constable that, " Kīrtana is nuisance." Public servant, he can say, blaspheme a religious system, Bhagavad*-gītā , in the same country, Bhagavad-gītā . And India is condemning now, government men, " Kīrtana is nuisance." Hari-śauri: Temporarily, at least, it seems the demons are very powerful. Prabhupāda: They will become powerful. And people will be less intelligent—means less God conscious. Just like when the king is weak, thieves and rogues, they flourish. Hari-śauri: So we just have to be very strong and uncompromising. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: We just have to be very strong and uncompromising. Prabhupāda: How you can compromise with thieves and rogues? (pause) Prabhupāda: Boarding time? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The flight leaves at 5:05. They'll call. They'll call when it's time. The plane doesn't appear to be here just yet. Devotee: 4.45 it's due in. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . pieces cloth. Although they are poor, still they can understand it very easily, very easily, that you are not this body; there is God; if you don't become devotee, you'll remain in this material . . . these things they will immediately understand. Hari-śauri: How is it that, say . . . obviously they must be backed by very great pious activity, but somehow or other, they . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore they have taken birth in India. Hari-śauri: Is that special mercy, that they seem to be impoverished? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Is that special arrangement that they seem to be impoverished? Say like the villagers, they're not very wealthy, or, uh . . . Prabhupāda: That is due to misgovernment. There is no king; all rogues and thieves are in the government. Mismanagement. It is the government duty to see that everyone is doing nicely so that they can live peacefully, happily. There must be direction. Just like parentless children. Nobody is to take care; they'll be wretched. So India's position is like that—the parentless children. There is no good government. And they supply this control wheat that is not even touchable. Unfit for human consumption. There is a worm . . . Hari-śauri: Control wheat? Prabhupāda: Yes. They purchase from here and there all rejected wheat, and they supply it. There is no ghee, no milk, no proper food grain. Everything black market. Any necessary commodity you cannot have in the open market; you have to purchase in black market. Just like for the building purpose, cement. In your country you can purchase any amount of it. You cannot purchase. You have to purchase black market, and that cement also mixed with some . . . what is that? Hari-śauri: Mixed with . . . (indistinct) . . . or something. Prabhupāda: And unless you give some bribe, it is not possible. (break) Viśvakarmā: . . . for the balcony in the church in the other room? The vyāsāsana . (indistinct—announcement being made) Prabhupāda: . . . fit for sitting. That is very nice. And next time when I come the seat should be just Deity altar, so that all balcony can see. Viśvakarmā: Seat should be . . .? Prabhupāda: My seat should be near the altar of the Deity. *Hari-śauri: The vyāsāsana . Like in Los Angeles, at the side? On the left*-hand side? *Prabhupāda: Not left*-hand side. Just like you are facing Deity and there are spaces here. Viśvakarmā: Between the doors. Prabhupāda: Yes. Viśvakarmā: Which side, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Viśvakarmā: Which side . . . on the left*-hand side or the right-hand side of the Deity, facing towards the altar? Prabhupāda: Any side. Viśvakarmā: Any side? How far away from the front? In the middle, so that they can see from the balcony as well. Prabhupāda: Yes. (child calls out) "Prabhupāda"? No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sounded like it. Hari-śauri: Sounded like it. I don't think it could have been, though. Not a devotee. Prabhupāda: Child is . . . Devotee: Could be Buffalo. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, it's not. I see the child. Devotee: He'll have the same benediction as Ajāmila. (child calls out "Prabhupāda") Prabhupāda: He knows me. (laughs) (break) Devotee: Should there be a canopy over top of the vyāsāsana ? Prabhupāda: No, no canopy. (break) . . . to fly to our New Vrindavan? How long it takes? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I asked Kīrtanānanda. He said about one hour, twenty, twenty*-five minutes. (break) (in car after arrival) Prabhupāda: Let us see what is the reception. (break) We have come from a different way. From Buffalo. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, you had to come from Buffalo. (break) . . . take to get to Buffalo? Prabhupāda: Three hours. Hari-śauri: No, only about an hour and a half. Prabhupāda: Hour and half? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, no, from . . . Kīrtanānanda: To the airport from Toronto? Hari-śauri: From leaving Toronto, we left one o'clock, and we arrived at . . . it was about two hours. We arrived just after three. Kīrtanānanda: Some devotees were there from Buffalo? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . had a very nice place for you. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (break) People are being kept in such an ignorant way that they do not care about sinful activities. They can do anything for sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Actually, there is no advancement of civilization. They are thinking they are running on four*-wheel motorcar, and the dog is running on four legs. What is the quality change? This is going on in the name of civilization, and people are kept in ignorance. Where is the advancement? Running by motorcar is advancement? They have no knowledge that there is next life, and "Today I am running on Ford car, tomorrow I may have to run like dog on four legs." Kīrtanānanda: They do not think like that. *Prabhupāda: So this is ignorance, this is ignorance. And they are kept, the whole world—the state, the father, the guardian, everyone, the priest . . . (indistinct) . . . knowledge. Dull*-headed, ignorant. And they are passing on as philosopher, scientist, religious leader. (break) . . . hard to bring them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Taking these few years, fifty years or sixty years living here, and dance like dog and finish. There is no life. You die peacefully or . . . (indistinct) . . . and not dying peacefully, they cry. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: How to save them is very difficult. Prabhupāda: Simply chant. This is the only. Give them chance to come and chant with us, take prasādam . Then after few days or few months, let them understand the philosophy. Kīrtanānanda: We have all got this experience. Prabhupāda: You have all got this experience. This is the only way. I started this movement on this determination that, "They have nothing to give. Simply by propaganda they are exacting so many people and befooling them. And I'll give them prasādam , nice chanting, and they will not come? They must come." This was my determination. And I began with this. Kīrtanānanda: I remember. *Prabhupāda: So this is the only way. Give them chance, "No talk, please come. Chant and dance with us and take kṛṣṇa*-prasāda and go home." Kīrtanānanda: I think it was just ten years ago when I first met you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: This month. *Prabhupāda: I never said that "You have to give up this, you have to do this, you have to . . ." Never said it. Then gradually, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). When the heart becomes cleansed, then little . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no hopelessness. Because so many people have come, and they are coming. Both black, white, everyone is coming. There is no question of . . . (indistinct) . . . but you cannot expect that cent percent people will come. That is not possible. But even, even one-fourth percent people will come to this, then it will be successful. Compared to the American population, what percentage we have got? Still we have made some impression, the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Literatures are selling, they are appreciating, learned circle. Takes some time, but if we stick to our principles and do not make any compromise and push on—in this way, as I have given you instruction—it will never stop; *it will go on. It will never stop. At least for ten thousand years it will go on. That is in your . . . (indistinct) . . . and this movement is meant for these fourth*-class, fifth-class, tenth-class men. Not this movement is fourth class, fifth class. They are so fallen that they cannot be counted even third class, fourth class—tenth class of men. Deliver them. Patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's incarnation is for delivering these classes of men. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never meant to start this movement for high-class brāhmaṇas , sages, saintly persons—no. This class of men. For the all fallen. Kali-yuga, all fallen. Don't be disappointed. Go on, go on. Stick to the principles. When there was no response, I did not know where to live, where to eat. Sometimes with Dr. Mishra, sometimes with some friend somewhere. Where to live? And I was going to inquire the shipping company when the next ship returning to India. Still I was renewing my visa, "Let us hope. Let us hope." In this way, we started Second Avenue in month of July, I think? Kīrtanānanda: June or July. June or July, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, June or July. Yes, June. Kīrtanānanda: I think it was June. Prabhupāda: Then Hayagrīva and Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, they came first. Before that, Mukunda came. Hari-śauri: He's the oldest devotee? Mukunda? He's the oldest devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. There were others; they have left. That Mr. Green. Kīrtanānanda: Jagannātha dāsa. I think you named him Jagannātha. *Prabhupāda: And Ravīndra*-svarūpa. Kīrtanānanda: Another one, Carl, Carl. Prabhupāda: Carl, yes. He has left. To Washington directly? This road? Kīrtanānanda: Not Washington, D.C. This is Washington, Pennsylvania. Prabhupāda: This is Pennsylvania state? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. The girls were saying that today at the airport was the most demoniac day they ever had. Prabhupāda: Eh? Kīrtanānanda: Today was the most demoniac day at the airport they've ever had. They're getting very, very nasty. Every time they talked to someone, they come up and they say: "Don't take it. Don't take it. They're ripping you off. They're 'Moon' people," like that. Prabhupāda: "Moon people"? What is that? *Kīrtanānanda: You know there's a lot of publicity right now about this Korean so*-called spiritual master, Moon. Hari-śauri: We just read one article in the U.S. News , shows a picture, that man it describes. Kīrtanānanda: It is causing a big stir, these "Moon" people. He has just bought the hotel in New York for five million dollars. Prabhupāda: He is also against our movement? Kīrtanānanda: Well, I wouldn't say . . . he never says anything about our movement . . . (indistinct) . . . but they are equating us with him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ah. Kīrtanānanda: The public is sometimes equating us with him and these other rascals. He claims that Jesus Christ never lived to fulfill his mission, which was to establish the perfect family. They killed him before he got married. So he has come, and he has all these wives. At least, he used to . . . always, whenever any of his disciples would get married, first he would have their wife. Prabhupāda: And they're doing that? (laughs) Kīrtanānanda: People cannot distinguish between what is true and what is bogus. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . sophistication. (break) . . . reminds me of a place in Germany. Heidelberg. Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like New Vrindavan? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, you'll find so many places in this country named . . . this probably was originally a settlement of German people from Heidelburg. (break) I don't know. It was a chemical plant. *Prabhupāda: Oh. These things are not required at all, but they have created. They are called anartha , unnecessarily diverting valuable attention of the human being to waste their time and energy and next life become a dog. That they do not know. This science is unknown to them. They'll believe, "This life finished, everything finished." That's all. (break) . . . is working. That they do not know. Life is eternal, and how we are under this cycle of birth and death, nothing. Yāvad jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet . Cārvāka Muni's philosophy. "So long you live, live happily." But actually they are not living happily. To work in this factory is not happy. He has got suffering. But they are thinking they are happy. Just like the hog eating stool, he is happy. This is gross ignorance. Actually, therefore, there is revolt against these capitalist. There is another unhappiness. Now there is strike. So where is happiness? If there is happiness, why there is strike? Why there is so many strikes? Why there is protest? There is no happiness, but they are thinking it is happiness. Whole thing is based on ignorance, māyā . Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje. And the direct method for subduing these anarthas, unnecessary troubles— bhakti-yoga . There is no other way. Only bhakti-yoga . Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasya ajānataḥ (SB 1.7.6). People do not know it. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Therefore Vyāsadeva, most learned scholar, he has made this Bhāgavatam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣāt. (break) I was translating the Bhāgavatam , Eighth Canto, Twelfth Chapter. Hari-śauri: How many chapters is there? *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-four. Twenty-four. Half finished. Half finished, Eighth Canto. Kīrtanānanda: What is Eighth Canto like? What does Eighth Canto contain? Prabhupāda: Eighth Canto? There is churning of the ocean and producing nectar, and the demons, they did not receive the nectar. There was fight. Hari-śauri: And the story of Gajendra, as well? Prabhupāda: Gajendra, that is I think Seventh Canto, no? Hari-śauri: Beginning of the Eighth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gajendra also. Hari-śauri: That means four parts. That means four books for the Eighth Canto. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: Each volume is more wonderful. Each volume . . . Prabhupāda: Ah? Oh, yes. There is no comparison of this literature. Kīrtanānanda: I think before you came, *Bhāgavatam* was unknown. Prabhupāda: Unknown, yes. The Ramakrishna Mission published one *Bhāgavatam* commentary. You know that? Farce. They, these Ramakrishna Mission people, have done the greatest harm to the Vedic culture . . . (indistinct) . . . of course, it is not taken very seriously, Ramakrishna Mission. Hari-śauri: Not in the West. Prabhupāda: But they publicized in India that they have all, everyone, become . . . (indistinct) . . . in India they were doing like that, "Vivekananda Road," "Vivekananda Square," and rascals, they do not inquire even what is Vivekananda's contribution. Pradulika prabhāva. Hari-śauri: You made a good point about why, although now thousands of American boys and girls are coming to India, no one is going to the Ramakrishna Mission, so what kind of impact has he had? Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana they have got hospital and Ramakrishna temple. Who is going there? This is practical example. In our temple, thousands and thousands of the foreign boys and girls are coming, and who is going there? If it was actually they did something, they should at least have gone there out of inquisitiveness: "Oh, where is Vivekananda?" Nobody goes there. Not even to pass urine there. (laughter) (break) Kīrtanānanda: That Japanese tape recorder. Prabhupāda: And Hichai is . . . this is called hitchhike? Hari-śauri: Hitchhike. *Prabhupāda: That is "hitchhike," and this is Hitch*-hi. Hari-śauri: Hitachi. Prabhupāda: Hitachi, yes. This is a church? Kīrtanānanda: No, this is an institution, state institution for old people or mental home. I forget. "Western State School." (break) Prabhupāda: . . . Hayagrīva. Kīrtanānanda: I think he's in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Kīrtanānanda: I'm trying to get him to bring his boy to New Vrindavan. He's down there with those meat*-eaters. Prabhupāda: She is not agreeable? I think that she is not very well treated by her husband. Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Therefore . . . otherwise, she is a good girl. Kīrtanānanda: Hayagrīva's very . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I know she is good girl. He has disrupted his family also. Kīrtanānanda: If a devotee doesn't follow the principles, then he is sure to suffer. Nothing can be good in his family life. Prabhupāda: I thought that he is happy in family life. His father and mother came to congratulate him. Kīrtanānanda: He was better shape when I saw him last week than I've seen him in a long time. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: He was better in Los Angeles when I saw him last week than I've seen him in a long time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: He never lost his sentiment for you. Prabhupāda: No, that I know. Therefore I like. Kīrtanānanda: But he's addicted to his bad habits. Prabhupāda: He'll be corrected. There is no hopelessness. Kīrtanānanda: I've always felt that, but it makes it difficult to live with him in the meantime. (Prabhupāda laughs) Prabhupāda: Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). Is that railway line? No. (break) There are some roads, large size roads, Los Angeles. That is America everywhere. Kīrtanānanda: Big cars and big roads. Prabhupāda: Opulence. Hari-śauri: America seems to be one big highway. Prabhupāda: They have got cars and they have got roads also. Very good. That's all right. But why they should give up the real business of life? Hari-śauri: I don't think it's so much that they gave it up, they didn't ever know what it was. Prabhupāda: There was no preaching. There was no education on this subject. The Christian priests, they are unable to . . . Kīrtanānanda: They have no knowledge themselves. How they can teach? Hari-śauri: They are all giving up out of hopelessness themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are now asking . . . in Melbourne the priest asked me, "Swāmījī, why Christian religion is dwindling? What we have done?" I told them, "What you have not done?" (laughs) They were little insulted. Hari-śauri: That first time you visited that monastery, the man that was in charge, the head monk there, after you had visited, a short while later he left and he went to India, looking for enlightenment. Prabhupāda: Perhaps he got some shock when I said that, "What you have not done?" They received me very well. (break) *Kīrtanānanda: Altogether about an hour and half. About forty*-five minutes more. Prabhupāda: What is being done with Hayagrīva's house? Kīrtanānanda: I bought that from him. There are a few devotees there right now. Prabhupāda: No, the other house. Kīrtanānanda: Which one? Up at the original farm? Prabhupāda: No, not original. Kīrtanānanda: That's the one I'm talking about. Prabhupāda: Tulasī ? Kīrtanānanda: No, they're just wild flowers. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Hari-śauri: Very fragrant. Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) (break) Kīrtanānanda: (Prabhupāda is taking prasādam ) There's plenty of milk and ghee. Prabhupāda: This is human food. They do not know how to eat, the Westerners. (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . ever eat these nice foods they give up so much sinful activity, very easily. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: By just eating nice foods they can give up so much sinful activity. Prabhupāda: Who has made them? Kīrtanānanda: Different devotees—mother Lakhimā, mother . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Combined effort. Kīrtanānanda: Tamāla said this is the only place in the US now they have Vedic cooking. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . facility to get enough ghee. They have got the chance. Hari-śauri: Fresh vegetables, everything. (break) Kīrtanānanda: Feast? Yes. Prabhupāda: What did they say after eating these things? (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . Indians come and they always say, "Who has taught you to cook like this?" We tell them, "Śrīla Prabhupāda has taught us everything." Prabhupāda: At this 26 Second Avenue, Acyutānanda Mahārāja . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Many Indians come? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. (break) . . . membership program now. Hari-śauri: There were about three or four hundred Indians came to the feast yesterday. No, not yesterday; on Sunday. Prabhupāda: Six hundred. Hari-śauri: Six hundred. Kīrtanānanda: In Toronto? Hari-śauri: Yes, very big turnout. Big turnout also in Detroit. Same in Detroit. I never realized there were so many Indians all over the world. Prabhupāda: Generally, they are engaged in education. Hari-śauri: I know in England they all have responsible jobs. Doctors and like that. Prabhupāda: There are many medical practitioners, Indians. I have . . . I learned that British people, they like Indian physicians. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, they're very popular. Prabhupāda: They have got faith that these people treat carefully. One civil surgeon is a Bengali in London. Civil surgeon. You have heard this Aurobindo? His father was a medical practitioner in England, and he was born there. Hari-śauri: His mother was Indian also or . . .? No. (break) Prabhupāda: Indian families, they are living for two, three generation. (break) . . . teaching them how to make home comfortable, they'll be trained up to become prostitutes. How to kill time. (break) Hari-śauri: I think Tamāla was saying in New York they need good cooks there. Tamāla was saying that in New York they don't have very good cooks there. Prabhupāda: Nowhere there is good cook except here. (laughter) Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is good cook. Hari-śauri: He's trained everybody up very nicely. Kīrtanānanda: Prabhupāda knows how to flatter. Well, I think even we could not cook so good in Boston or New York. Without being in Vrindaban and the natural ingredients, it is not so . . . Prabhupāda: You can supply them ghee. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, we can do that. (break) Prabhupāda: You grow podina ? Podina ? Mint? Mint? Kīrtanānanda: Mint? Yes. Prabhupāda: Chutney. Kīrtanānanda: Mint chutney. How do you make mint chutney? Prabhupāda: I'll teach you. You have got mango? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: I'll teach you. Chili? Kīrtanānanda: They are not ripe yet. The plants are still too small for this year. Prabhupāda: They are not giving chili? Kīrtanānanda: Not yet. It is too early. In August. But I can get. I can get green chili. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . something to drink? Kīrtanānanda: No. Hari-śauri: I don't know what happened to that orange juice. Someone else was carrying it. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . because it is so nice. Kīrtanānanda: That is your mercy. Prabhupāda: So this was my dream, that a place should be there where we can get all nice foods, best foods, of milk. Kṛṣṇa is fulfilling that desire. Everything's there. Simply these rascals, they do not know how to live or to eat. Everything there. Intelligence is there, everything is there. Simply for want of training they have become rogues. Make them human beings, your countrymen. Everyone should follow the duty, materially and spiritually. Anyway . . . here is very nice here, this climate. It is a winter season of . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) These months, June, July, August, up to September? Kīrtanānanda: No, actually up to November. The devotees like the winter, though. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kīrtanānanda: It is even more conducive to think of Kṛṣṇa in the winter. Prabhupāda: So the neighborers, they like it? Neighborhood men? Kīrtanānanda: Most of them like us. There are a few that don't like us. But they are not violent. They are a little nasty. Prabhupāda: Nasty they have been trained up to be. (Sanskrit) Once trained up nastily, it is very difficult to . . . Kīrtanānanda: The state police in this local area has become very favorable to us. During that quarantine the state police had to stay there. So they even began to come to ārati . They took our books; they were reading but there's been a lot of change in some of the government. Some of the government men are now much favorable, more understanding. Prabhupāda: Whatever was there, it was due to misunderstanding. Kīrtanānanda: The sheriff is very favorable to us. Prabhupāda: Eh? Kīrtanānanda: The sheriff is very favorable, the judge. That judge that came to see you last time you were here, he still keeps a picture of you in his desk. Prabhupāda: Oh. Kīrtanānanda: When the palace is finished we will have nice ceremonies, and many of the local dignitaries will come. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . begins? Kīrtanānanda: Moundsville is that way about five miles. We are almost to New Vrindavan now. Two miles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Our post office is Moundsville. Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Do you want to go directly to your quarters, or do you want to stop by the temple? Prabhupāda: Yes, temple. Deities open? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then . . . (break) Actually it is gradually expanding in these quarters. (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . be on local television soon. That will be very good propaganda for us. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is shown? Or no, not yet. Kīrtanānanda: Not yet. Prabhupāda: One thing you have missed: how we are preparing all these foodstuff. Kīrtanānanda: It was too short. In the movie? It was too short how to prepare it? Prabhupāda: Yes. How from milk in different stages you get this foodstuff, kachorīs, siṅgāra, sandeśa, rābṛi . And this chānā , if fried, if you prepare nicely with little hing and ginger, then it will exactly taste like meat. They'll forget. If you give them without telling them, they will think that they're eating meat. Kīrtanānanda: Hing and what? Prepare with hing and . . .? Prabhupāda: Ginger. Kīrtanānanda: Ginger. Prabhupāda: They prepare the semiliquid meat like that. You give them little piece and they will not understand that it is not meat. (laughs) Hari-śauri: When we were in Los Angeles, Pālikā made some barā and it tasted . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja wouldn't eat it. He said it tasted too much like fish. Prabhupāda: With urad ḍāl , you can prepare fishy taste. Hari-śauri: Someone told me that your Guru Mahārāja said that . . . Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Anyone who is not taking urad ḍāl , he must be taking fish silently, secretly. (break) Kīrtanānanda: Not on this side, other side. I want to buy that farm there. Prabhupāda: This barn, Vrindaban. What is this building? Kīrtanānanda: They are constructing a . . . I have a big carpenter shop, a construction shop, a printing shop. And upstairs there will be a big hall for Janmāṣṭamī that holds seven, eight hundred people. There is another . . . that's our guesthouse building we're building there. You can see the top two floors, with the arches. Prabhupāda: What is this? Another barn? Kīrtanānanda: This is an ox barn here. Prabhupāda: No, this. Kīrtanānanda: That tank? That tank we are making for grain storage. Prabhupāda: Oh, much improvement. (end) Conversation A -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA (Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden) Prabhupāda: Thank you. Kīrtanānanda: In . . . (indistinct) . . . this is your palace. Prabhupāda: Oh! So many . . . (indistinct) Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: There is no such building in America. (break) These are our workers? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, these are your builders here. Bhāgavatānanda Prabhu has done the design. Prabhupāda: Oh. Very nice. Kīrtanānanda: And Ātmabhū Prabhu is the chief construction man. Ātmabhū. Prabhupāda: Oh, all our men. Kīrtanānanda: All our men. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. Kīrtanānanda: Your car will come in here, and you get out and you come right in. Prabhupāda: And this is the hall? Kīrtanānanda: This will be a little hall, and that is the worship room, where we can put your vyāsāsana in there, and you can lecture there, or . . . and we can worship you always there. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: But this dome will go up another twelve feet, and four feet from the top there is . . . this lotus flower starts, and this is just one little sample of the kind of casting that will finish it. It will all be done now with smooth plaster. This dome here is being done like this dome, covered with cement. And then where you see these arches are being poured, there will be colored glass windows, stained glass windows. Prabhupāda: To enter that temple you have to go through here? Kīrtanānanda: To enter the Deity room you go through the kitchen. Prabhupāda: No, generally people will go from this side to see the Deity? Kīrtanānanda: No, they will see just from out here. Prabhupāda: All these walls closed, there is no window. Kīrtanānanda: There is no window. Prabhupāda: Only one window. Kīrtanānanda: Four windows on the up. Prabhupāda: Ventilation. Kīrtanānanda: Ventilation? Prabhupāda: No ventilation. Kīrtanānanda: There will be artificial ventilation, fan. Prabhupāda: Oh. Natural ventilation is prohibited. (laughs) Kīrtanānanda: No, these windows can open—air that way. Prabhupāda: Nice veranda. This will be open like this? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: These are rooms? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, these will be servants' quarters on this side. Prabhupāda: This will be window? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. This will be a kitchen. Prabhupāda: Nice, very nice. And there will be garden here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. We are gradually clearing all this land. This was all wooded last year, and we're clearing now. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Kīrtanānanda: This is a very good view, all over our land. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kīrtanānanda: These are your quarters here. This will be your study room, and there will be a wall there. This is your bedroom. Prabhupāda: These are all marbles? No. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, this is all marble. The devotees—you see how the marble is all inlaid on the pieces there—they've done that. Then there will be a dressing room and a bath. Prabhupāda: Dressing room? Kīrtanānanda: Dressing room and bath. Prabhupāda: Oh. That side? Kīrtanānanda: That side. Prabhupāda: These framework will remain? Kīrtanānanda: No, it will be covered with plaster. Prabhupāda: Then it will be taken away? No. Kīrtanānanda: No, no, it remains. Prabhupāda: It will continue. Kīrtanānanda: You have some question about this? Prabhupāda: This iron is corroding. If it will not hamper. Kīrtanānanda: It will be covered. Prabhupāda: Covered, but now it is corroding. Kīrtanānanda: I see what you are saying. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Kīrtanānanda: There will also be . . . there is another door that goes in that wall there, like this, for access to that side. Prabhupāda: Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt ( BG 2.40). Little service in this connection, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can protect one from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya . Kīrtanānanda: You are so kind to let us do it. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's desire. White sand, wherefrom you secure? Kīrtanānanda: In Ohio, about sixty miles from here. Prabhupāda: From the seaside? Sea beach? No. Kīrtanānanda: No, they call it silica sand. I think it's made from glass. Prabhupāda: Not glass, it is a kind of stone made powder. Silica sand. They are like sandstone. Kīrtanānanda: This is just the first cut, not polished. Now, in this dome you see this is a . . . Prabhupāda: No, while constructing, filling up this, what is called, column, in Bombay they're putting air so that they become solid stone. You have seen in Bombay? Big engineer, they are giving some pumping air so that while the cement is filled up, it becomes solid. Hari-śauri: Oh, vibrators. Kīrtanānanda: We do that here. We also do that. Prabhupāda: You have got some machine? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: That makes solidified. Kīrtanānanda: No voids. Prabhupāda: Ah, no. Yes. I see, but . . . it appears there is no vacancy. But everything is there, engineering. Engineering process is . . . (indistinct) Kīrtanānanda: Yes. And we'll take you down to the gray house down here, we'll show you a few more things, how it's being finished. It is just rough here. Prabhupāda: What are these pipes? Kīrtanānanda: That's for drainage. For when the water goes out in the sewer, and goes out into the field and drains. Prabhupāda: You can utilize this water for fertilizing, drain water. Kīrtanānanda: Well, first of all we have to satisfy the health department. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . wood as fuel so that gradually this jungle will be clear. Thank you very much. Devotees: Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya ! Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya ! Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! (devotees offer obeisances) (break) (in car) Prabhupāda: This is sand. Kīrtanānanda: It's sand, yes. It's not from our property, but it's gotten locally. It comes out of the river. Prabhupāda: Everything you had to purchase? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: It will be required. Kīrtanānanda: For some time, anyway. While we are building so much we need some help. We do not have sufficient manpower. No one is idle. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, you like this? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's very wonderful. (out of car, entering workroom) Hari-śauri: We have to take our shoes off? Kīrtanānanda: It's okay. Prabhupāda: These are specially made? Kulādri: Yes, special for you, in New York City, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Kīrtanānanda: And this is the kind of doors and the stained glass work is being done like this. The marble is being worked like this. Prabhupāda: This is lead? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like in the church. Who has done this painting? Kīrtanānanda: That is, I think, from India. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Kīrtanānanda: These pictures are rose quartz. This is rose quartz and twenty*-four-carat gold. Prabhupāda: Gold? (laughter) *Kulādri: Twenty*-four carat. Prabhupāda: In that Detroit house, so much gold. That is also like this. What are these? Kīrtanānanda: This is a sample of the handles. Prabhupāda: Plumbing? Kīrtanānanda: Like those on the doors. Hari-śauri: Is this gold as well? Kulādri: Brass. Prabhupāda: Everything special. Kīrtanānanda: But we are just śūdras , we don't know how to do anything else. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What for these marbles? Kīrtanānanda: That will go on the wall in the bathroom, Italian cremo marble. Here's a picture of how the windows are being done in jāli work. This is being cast out of white cement. Prabhupāda: Doing here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. This is some of the castings they've done. This goes up on the ceiling. Prabhupāda: Cornice. Kīrtanānanda: Cornice, yes. Then around the top of the building on the outside, there's a railing with these balusters. Prabhupāda: This is made of cement? Kīrtanānanda: No, this one is plaster. This was our first model. But the ones that will be used will be done out of cement. This is very light. Do you have your drawing of the outside? Prabhupāda: Somebody's staying here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, Bhāgavatānanda and a couple of the other construction members stay here. (break) This is the way it will look when it's finished—the balusters and the brackets supporting the sunshade. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . when God is there, within the heart, He'll give you, "Do like this." Buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te (BG 10.10). If one is sincere to serve the Lord, the Lord is situated in everyone's heart, He'll give him, "Do like this." Teṣām evānukampārtham aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ (BG 10.11). It is special favor of God. Even if he's not aware of anything he deviated, He'll give instruction, "Do like this." So there is no scarcity of instruction if one is sincere. Thank you very much. (leaves workshop) (break) . . . I came to your country for preaching this, I had no idea how to do it. (laughs) But things are being model. People are surprised how within a short, so many short years, this world movement has sprung. But I had no idea how to do it. (laughter) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Seeing your palace here is almost like seeing the Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple for the first time. *Prabhupāda: Yes. In Ramaṇ*-reti there was no temple. Similarly, in this quarter there was no such building. Many people will come to see it. Kīrtanānanda: They already do, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, I can understand. Kīrtanānanda: Many people come by every week to see what progress has been made. And everybody who drives by, they stop. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is something wonderful in this quarter. Kīrtanānanda: You can drive fifty miles away around here, and they'll stop and ask you about how's the palace coming. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Changing New Vrindavan. It is already organized, New Vrindavan? Jaya . (break) (in car) Prabhupāda: . . . little further, I think. Kīrtanānanda: We're trying to clear all this now, too. Prabhupāda: This is ours? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Kīrtanānanda: It takes a long time to clear it, though. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Do slowly, that is pleasure. Kīrtanānanda: Well, we could do it much faster if we didn't try to utilize the wood, but we want to utilize. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Unnecessarily you should not cut. When it is necessary for Kṛṣṇa, then you cut. This is also living entity. We cannot kill them without any sufficient reason. (sings) Śrī*-kṛṣṇa-caitanya . This is our property? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. This side also. Kīrtanānanda: This side. Goes down to that road there. Prabhupāda: All this land can be utilized, planting. There is some graveyard? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. You want to ride any further? Prabhupāda: No. Harer nāma harer nāma harer (CC Adi 17.21). (break) Kīrtanānanda: . . . can be seen in one direction at least a couple of miles away, several, no, three directions. This is the capital that will go in the courtyard here in the main temple . . . the assembly area. On those columns, this will go at the top. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Thank you. This is plastic? Kīrtanānanda: This is what they make the mold from. This one is in plaster. Now they will cast more. Below that they'll be faced with marble. Prabhupāda: They can do Deity also, they can. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, after they've done with your palace they're going to start on some Deities. I think they would like permission to first start with your deity. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Kulaśekhara: (shouting as they pass by) Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Kulaśekhara is here? Kīrtanānanda: Kulaśekhara, yes, he is editing Brijabasi Spirit now. We will put a wall around, and then all nice gardens inside. Prabhupāda: Cement wall or wooden? Kīrtanānanda: No, a combination of masonry and fancy iron so that people can see through. Prabhupāda: Reinforced. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, but also so they can see through at certain points. *Prabhupāda: Jaya . With sunshine this wood becomes very, very beautiful. Tapo*-vana . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . in this house. Who is staying now? Kīrtanānanda: Usually there are devotees that stay there. Right now we are not having anybody stay there. Lord Jagannātha stays there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Here, in this house? No. Kīrtanānanda: What is that? No, Jagannātha stays in that house. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . are grown here or brought from somewhere else? Kīrtanānanda: This was brought from somewhere else because there was nothing here in which to grow it. We can grow it . . . (indistinct) . . . that's why it's so wet right now, very wet. (break) Prabhupāda: They will do it like this, now it is very nice. Kīrtanānanda: Very beautiful. Prabhupāda: That one girl is taking care, she's doing very nice. We can sit down here? Kīrtanānanda: Kulādri, find some more things. Come up this side. As soon as you sit down, everything looks complete. Prabhupāda: Hmm? (laughs) Where is Pradyumna Mahārāja? Kīrtanānanda: He's just inside the house. You'd like him to come out? Prabhupāda: No. Pālikā, you came before here? Pālikā: Six years ago. There was just that one small, original farm. *Prabhupāda: Now it is a big property. And when the palace will be ready, many people will . . . you simply advertise, "Come and see palaces in New Vrindavan." It will be a combination of Western and Eastern culture, for the profit of the whole human society. So Vṛndāvana*-candra will come here? No. Vṛndāvana-candra Deity? Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: His palace will be different. *Kīrtanānanda: His palace will be where the building is now. We're planning to move Him into the new building next to the present temple, the four*-story building. He will occupy the fourth floor for now. Then we will take down that old building and put up a nice big temple. Prabhupāda: So why you dismantle, construct another? Kīrtanānanda: The building is not in such good condition. Prabhupāda: That's all right. As soon as the new temple is, move it. Or you want to dismantle it? Kīrtanānanda: The site is good. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, site is good. Kīrtanānanda: It will make a nice complex in relationship with the other buildings. Prabhupāda: That will . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare . Kīrtanānanda: We are about to install your mūrti in that temple. Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). The Vedic secret is that parā bhaktir , yasya deve , unto the Lord, similarly, to the guru , they, to them, the whole thing becomes revealed automatically. Vedic knowledge is grasped not by erudite scholarship. Mundane scholarship has nothing to do with. The secret is, yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau . My Guru Mahārāja wanted that some books should be published. So I tried my best, and he's giving success more than expectation. In the history nobody has sold religion, philosophical books, in such large quantity. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Or quality. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is all Guru Mahārāja's blessings. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is stressing on this point, guru*-mukha-padma-vākya , cittete kariyā aikya , āra nā koriha mane āśā . Simply execute that. Kṛṣṇa bhakti . . . kṛṣṇa prāpti haya yāhā haite . You'll get Kṛṣṇa. (long pause) (break) *Prabhupāda: Govinda, Gopīnātha, Madana Mohana, Śyāmasundara, Rādhā*-Dāmodara, Gokulānanda and . . .? Rādhā-Ramaṇa. These seven temples, Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇava. Then other Vaiṣṇavas came, Raṅganātha, Rāmānuja. (break) . . . devotees from India, we import to develop these quarters, will government allow? Kīrtanānanda: I don't think there's as much problem from our government as from the Indian government. Our problem so far has been Indian government. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? If somebody wants to go, migrate in America, what Indian government will do? Kīrtanānanda: They won't give them passport. Prabhupāda: No, no, passport means coming back. But if he's going to domicile, Indian government cannot check. If I want to go somewhere and live there . . . Kīrtanānanda: You have to have passport. As far as I know. Prabhupāda: But passport means if he wants to return. Kīrtanānanda: No, in other words, in order to get visa from US, you have to present your passport. Prabhupāda: Well there are different kinds of visa. Immigration visa. Suppose if anyone wants to migrate in America, our Society here, we give guarantee. I think there will be no . . . Kīrtanānanda: No difficulty. We can try. Prabhupāda: Our Society is here, and we give this man our guarantee for maintenance. So what is the objection? By law there is no objection. And if the Immigration Department allows, "Yes, you can come and live," then where will be . . .? Immigration means that here government should be satisfied that this man is coming, he will have no difficulty; government gives permit. Kīrtanānanda: Should be like that, anyway. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . similarly, you can bring some men from India. Kīrtanānanda: We would like that. Prabhupāda: And they also will be very pleased. In India is now so congested. If they get good . . . especially many East Bengalis who migrate in West Bengal for the troublesome conditions there, they'll be very happy here. You can write to Gopāla to inquire that we require here some Indians to come to help us. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mistris for construction? Prabhupāda: Mistri or anyone, to develop this Kṛṣṇa culture, so the Society will give guarantee. Why not take permission? And they may not come back. They may reside. Kīrtanānanda: I don't understand. That seems to be the government's . . . the Indian government's objection was that they wouldn't come back. Prabhupāda: So they are disturbed with overpopulation. Kīrtanānanda: It doesn't make any sense. But their objection was that they might not come back. Prabhupāda: But that is good for you, because you are harassed by overpopulation. You cannot feed them even. Why you object? Let them go and live somewhere else peacefully. Just like the Europeans came here. Originally, in America, Europeans came. Because it was overcongested and they got . . . Columbus found this land, enough, and they migrated. So still there is so much land. The Indians are hard workers; *they will develop very nicely. Just like this quarter. If Indians would be allowed, they'll come and make it very nice. In South America they have done. Many Indian cultivators, they have come in remote villages. This cooperation should be. Everything belongs to God. Why a class or community should be congested? Just like China, Japan, India, so much congested. What is this nonsense United Nation doing? What they have done for the last thirty years? No liberal*-minded. Let them propose that wherever there is enough land and wherever there is overpopulation, let them go, and the government give them simply land and let them work and be happy. Why not arrange, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, arrange between these two, United Nation? Why a section of people is rotting in a place and devising some means how to fight with the others and get land? Why? There is no meaning. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). This is our philosophy: Everything belongs to God, and everyone is a son of God; therefore the son of God has the right. Why they should be thrown together and live compulsorily in that rotten place, that in China they are living on the sea? You know that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Taiwan. Kīrtanānanda: Thailand, yes. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. They have no place to live on the land. Kīrtanānanda: They build boats and live in the water. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially if people are coming for agriculture. Prabhupāda: Agriculture is the noblest profession. Give him some land, he cuts the wood, makes cottages. The land is clear, now till it, keep cows and grow food grains. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Doesn't put any local men out of work, also. Prabhupāda: Simple thing. And then live comfortably, eat comfortably, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. "Comfortably" does not mean satisfaction of the senses. Comfortably means we require primary necessities: to eat something, to sleep somewhere or have some sex—this is also bodily need—and to defend, that's all. These are the primary necessities. That can be arranged anywhere. God has given all facilities. Grow your own food, eat, and live anywhere. Just this place was rough like that, now it is handled nicely, it is very attractive. Bikale cukale ghar, sajale gochale bor. (If you clean a bad place it will become a home, and if you decorate a dirty person he will become a groom.) Any damn place, you cleanse it, it becomes home. And any nasty man, you decorate him, he becomes a bridegroom. (laughs) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Becomes a . . .? Hari-śauri: Bridegroom. *Prabhupāda: Bikale cukale ghar, sajale gochale bor. (If you clean a bad place it will become a home, and if you decorate a dirty person he will become a groom.) ( japa ) Let Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement give this sense to these rascals. They do not know how to adjust things. They simply plan their United Nation, but they do not know what is that plan. Yes. United Nation should be . . . first of all, why nation? Why manufacture nation and create trouble and again united? Nation—this word is not there in the Vedic language. There's no conception of nation. There is conception of varṇāśrama , everywhere. Not for any particular nation or any particular country, but everyone, according to quality—first*-class men, second-class men, third-class men. That is there everywhere. Everywhere you go, you find some people first-class intelligent, some people less than him, some people less than him, up to fourth class, that's all. And then fifth class. So everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . Now you try to implement. Perfect human life. Let any sociologist, politician come forward. We shall convince them that this is the only way. Why you are wasting time and barking dogs in the United Nation for the last forty years and doing nothing? What I have said, barking dogs? You have read it? I accused them as barking dogs . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Melbourne. Prabhupāda: . . . Melbourne, and they published in the paper. Actually, this is fact. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Barking for the last thirty years. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody has criticized them. They have taken it seriously; otherwise, why they have published? Yes, that's right. What they have done except barking? "I am American," "I am Russian," "I am this," "I am that," that's all. If you keep them dogs and hogs and, nicely dressed, they go to United Nation and talk of unity, is it possible? Can the dogs and hogs can unite? Common sense. You bring all the dogs of this neighborhood and ask them, "Don't bark now. Live peacefully," (laughter) will they be able? (laughs) The United Nation is like that. They're kept as dogs, and they're advised, "Now keep peacefully." Is it possible? They have no common sense even. First of all, let them become human beings. Conference is going on, big conference, and our Jawaharlal Nehru has imitated, that in the conference there are different languages, different . . . but if somebody is speaking in any language you'll hear it in your own language. Remember? In New Delhi he has done that. This rascal thought, "Now I am finished, I have done my duty." All rascals. ( japa ) Thus our definition, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's either in these four groups, bās , final. You just try to prove it. Hmm? Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? You have any doubt about it? Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Anyone? Do it very nicely. Push Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement vigorously. ( japa ) If you keep the people in ignorance like dogs and hogs, what is the value of advancement of knowledge? So many universities? ( japa ) But discuss this point, our charge; explain to them, and let someone defend them, someone talking for, and let him decide. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ ? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Whether this is fact. It is fact, but even if we do not accept it, what is the wrong there, find out. We don't find any wrong, everything. Because Kṛṣṇa said it, then it's all right. Because they will say it is too sectarian, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's the most miscreant, sinful and ass and lowest of the mankind—he has lost his all knowledge. This is our accusation. Now defend. Any gentleman will protest, that "I am such a respectable gentleman, and because I do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then I'll fall among these groups? What is this?" They will say. Now you'll have to prove that, "You are not a gentleman." Kīrtanānanda: Gentleman means one who is cultured. So culture is not of the body but of knowledge. Prabhupāda: But what do you mean by culture? First of all, the question will be, "What do you mean by culture?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's some idea of progress involved, advancement of life. Otherwise, there's no need for any kind of progress. One remains as a child. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that? Culture means advancement in knowledge. We say: "You're a gentleman of culture." That means he's advanced in knowledge. So what is the advancement of knowledge, next question will be. Rakṣaṇa: Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna that that was to know that he was factually not his body. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is advancement of knowledge. Otherwise, what is the difference between this bird and the human being? He's also dancing very jolly, but he has no knowledge that he's not this body. So if the human being also remains falsely jolly, without any knowledge of his existence, then what is the difference between the birds, dogs and human beings? Why we say low grade, animals? He's living in his own way. He has got all the facilities of eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Just you have all the same things. Where is the difference between you and him? Why you say advanced in knowledge? Rakṣaṇa: Nowadays they say that they're advanced in knowledge even without any sophistication at all, while Arjuna, when he was giving his arguments to Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: No, don't bring Arjuna now. Just speak on commonsense platform. As soon as we bring Arjuna, they'll think it is sectarian. We are talking on human common sense. What is advancement of knowledge? Devotee: They say if it's advancement of knowledge, if they are advanced, why do they have to die? The animals are dying, and they're accepting that, and the human beings also die. But why does he have to die if he's advanced in knowledge? Rakṣaṇa: Even if you are advanced in knowledge, you still have to die. Kīrtanānanda: Advancement of knowledge is to distinguish between what is temporary and what is eternal. Prabhupāda: Discuss amongst yourselves. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They may say, though, that even the human beings, the necessities are there—eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Prabhupāda: Everyone is doing. What is your advancement of knowledge? The bird is chirping, dancing, they're living, they are sleeping, they have got sex. So everyone is doing. What is your advancement of knowledge? Kīrtanānanda: We carry out these activities in relationship with the eternal soul. So that by performing the activities one is gaining knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Provided you have got the knowledge of the soul, then you are advanced than the birds and beasts. Otherwise, where is the advancement? Athāto brahma jijñāsā . The human being, they can inquire about the spirit soul. These birds, beasts, they cannot. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Then we find so many purported religious people, just like Christians, they may say: "Well, I believe in the soul," but nonetheless they are going on with their materialistic civilization. Prabhupāda: That means you do not know seriously what is soul. You have simply an idea, but you do not know in detail. Just like they say, the Christians, "God is great." But they do not know who is God and what is the meaning of greatness. That they do not know. They accept this theoretically or religious sentimentally, "God is great." Just like your state says: "In God We Trust." As soon as I inquire what kind of trust and to whom, there is no reply. That means they do not know what is God, what is trust. As a matter of slogan they write, that's all—even the state heads, and what to speak of the nonsense ordinary citizens. Seriously taking, it is very important question. They should have replied. But they do not know how to reply. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With all of the situations that take place in the material world, they may not be able to see how God is actually active in the material world, that whether there's a war or whether . . . Prabhupāda: Well, that you should . . . why you should remain in ignorance how God is acting? If you are serious about God, that you must know. Just like a statesman, he knows how government is acting. Ordinary man, he knows government is acting, but he does not know how government is acting. But advanced in knowledge, they know what is the constitution, how the government is acting. That is the difference. Therefore lawyer is appointed when there is some trouble. He can find out where is the defect. That is advancement of . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- June 23, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA (Garden Conversation) *Prabhupāda: . . .production of it's external. Bahir*-aṅga-śakti. But the śakti, the energy, is coming from the Supreme. Just like here we find this place is shadow and that place is sunshine. Both these places are due to the sun. When there is no sun, there is no such distinction that "This is shining, sunny, and this is shadow." So this distinction is there so long we do not know the real source. But if we know the real source, we can understand that this distinction is temporary. Actually the energy is coming from the Supreme. So shadow has come from Supreme, and light has also come from the Supreme. So there is no distinction, ultimately. Just like earring, golden, manufactured from gold, and the gold which is not manufactured. So this distinction—manufactured or not manufactured, secondary. But really the earring is also gold, and the lump of gold is also gold. So why should we say that earring is false? It is also gold. In relationship with the supreme source, janmādy asya yataḥ ( SB 1.1.1), there is no such distinction. *In another place, while Vyāsadeva was instructed by Nārada, he said, idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaro (SB 1.5.20). This viśva, the virāṭ*-rūpa, is also Bhagavān, but it appears different from Him. Just like the shadow appears different from the sunshine, but actually, taking the central point of emanation, it is different manifestation. That's all. Tree—there are so many varieties. One is trunk, one is branch, one is twig, one is leaf, one is . . . So the varieties are there, but the tree is one, the root. So ultimately there is no variety; *only one. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). The difference is the Māyāvādīs, they abruptly say everything is one. Not everything is one. The trunk is not one with the leaf, but ultimately, because the root is the cause, so there is no difference between the trunk and the leaf. This is acintya*-bhedābheda philosophy, simultaneously one and different. On the whole, everything is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why should we think this world is mithyā when it is created by God? Does God create anything false? No. When it is created by God . . . When we think that "I create some business, some factory, that is my pleasure," but if somebody else thinks it, it is for his pleasure, that is māyā. The world is created by God, He has got some motive, so if the world, cosmic manifestation, is utilized for His purpose, then it is spiritual. Otherwise, it is material. *Devotee (1): In the Seventh Canto, the second volume, the first chapter in that volume, Prahlāda Mahārāja is talking how the studying of the three Vedas is external and it includes knowledge, though, of education and self*-realization, but he considers it material because it is external study of the Vedas. I don't understand that. Prabhupāda: Anything external is material. *Devotee (1): Self*-realization is included in that list of education and self-realization and other items. *Prabhupāda: Yes, self*-realization, simply understanding "I am not this matter," is also external because there is chance of falldown. But when you are actually engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is positive platform of self-realization. Devotee (2): Just like the brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Brahmeti. *Prabhupāda: Different stages of self*-realization. (pause) Prabhupāda: Today there is no wind at all. Kulādri: Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we explain that our activity is spiritual, what we are doing is spiritual . . . Just like we say the quality of the tape recorder becomes spiritualized when it's used in Kṛṣṇa's service. So the materialists, they don't understand. They say, "Well, the tape recorder will also break, the tapes will also be burned up sometimes." Prabhupāda: That's all right. It will go to Kṛṣṇa. Breaking, where it will go? Hmm? Kulādri: Well they say the chemicals again become . . . Prabhupāda: That chemical, where it will go? Yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante yasmin saṁviśanti (Taittirīya Upaniṣad 3.1). Everything is created from Kṛṣṇa, again it returns to Kṛṣṇa. Kulādri: Then they say then we needn't play Kṛṣṇa conscious music. We might as well play rock and roll if it is going back to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: That is māyā. This is meant for Kṛṣṇa's service. As soon as you do anything else, then it is māyā. Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā (BG 7.14). Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's. But under māyā we suffer; under Kṛṣṇa we enjoy. Kulādri: So if we engage everything here in Kṛṣṇa's service, then the atmosphere will change. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kulādri: They can notice the change in the atmosphere. *Prabhupāda: That is real atmosphere. Sva*-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). Mukti means to stay in the original form. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've heard that you use the example that spirit has form and therefore the body also has similar form, just as a hand has a form in a glove, it's the hand's similar form. So how can we understand that the trees have a certain form? That . . . is there spirit in the form of a tree? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Then how do we explain the transmigration of the soul? Prabhupāda: This outward is a form. What is the difficulty? (to devotees) Discuss. Pradyumna: Just as this human body has a human form, we say that because this body has a form, the soul also must have form. Prabhupāda: So? Devotee (1): Talking about the transmigration, then. Pradyumna: Just as the glove has a certain form because the hand is shaped like that, the material body of a human has that form because the spirit is in that form? And the tree has that form because the spirit is in that form? Prabhupāda: Here difficulty is that the form is fixed up. That is not . . . Just like Kṛṣṇa appears in so many forms; everything is spiritual. So what do you think? Devotee (2): So the form in the spiritual sky is not absolute either? We can take different forms in the spiritual sky? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are also many forms, but all of them are spiritual, the Vṛndāvana. There is tree, there is Yamunā water, there is land, there is cow, there is calf, there is gopas, gopīs—they are all spiritual. Just like from earth you make many forms, but they are earth. You make pots, you make dolls, but they are all earth. Similarly, spiritual world, there are many forms, they are all spiritual. What is the difficulty? Pradyumna: Does that form ever change? That form changes also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Kṛṣṇa is young, and then He's a little older. Prabhupāda: Generally, it does not change, if one likes this type of form. Śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vātsalya, mādhurya. Kulādri: That change is available to anyone to progress from śānta to dāsya? Prabhupāda: That change is not material change. The spiritual bliss is there, either in this form or that form. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that if we serve Kṛṣṇa we will enjoy, and if we serve māyā then we suffer. How can we get over our desire to serve māyā and enjoy separately from Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pradyumna: Says in the material world when we try to enjoy, we suffer. When we try to enjoy we suffer? Then how will we get over our desire? And when we serve Kṛṣṇa, we become happy. But how will we get over our desire to serve māyā? The attachment is strong. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pradyumna: He says how will we get over the desire to serve māyā, to try to enjoy ourselves in this material world? Prabhupāda: Serve Kṛṣṇa. *Pradyumna: It says here that yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). One obtaining this actual service of Kṛṣṇa, when one tastes the service of Kṛṣṇa, then he sees any other gain, he does not consider anything else. "Established thus, one never departs from the truth, and upon gaining this he thinks there is no greater gain." So when you actually taste the service of Kṛṣṇa, then you won't consider anything else to be worthy of your effort. But when we do think something else to be worthy of our effort then it means that we haven't . . . we're not really becoming advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We're not developing. We should try to develop to that point. We have to develop. Prabhupāda says this is the test of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you will not want to depart from Kṛṣṇa consciousness to enjoy himself in material nature. And when one still wants to do that, that means he hasn't advanced to that point of stability in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dṛḍha*-vrata, who's completely fixed in his service. Avasthitiḥ. Yatra sthito na calati. When one is situated there, he doesn't depart from there, he doesn't want to go out from there. So we have to reach that point. Devotee (3): So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if at this platform we are not yet . . . we are still desiring to depart from Kṛṣṇa's service and enjoy, then we are not . . . we have not yet tasted devotional service, what is it that we have tasted that is keeping us temporarily connected to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic injunction: You keep yourself connected with Kṛṣṇa, then you will develop the taste. Just like a jaundice patient does not taste sugar as sweet, but if he continues to take sugar candy, then he will have the real taste for sugar candy—sweet, not bitter. So he has to continue to eat sugar candy continually. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam. Then he'll have the taste. Kulādri: But the patient must be intelligent to keep . . . Even though he does not want . . . Prabhupāda: Patient is always rascal, fool. You cannot expect him to be intelligent. He must agree to the physician's direction. That is intelligence. He must know that he's diseased, he must follow the instruction of the physician. That much will help him. Unless one is rascal, he does not fall sick. As soon as you violate the hygienic principles, you become sick. All commit sinful activities on account of ignorance. So therefore the best advancement of civilization is not to open hospitals, but to give them a lesson that they may not fall sick and go to hospital. That is real . . . But they do not know. They keep the mass of people in ignorance, they fall sick and they come to hospital, and number of hospitals increase—they think it is advancement. This is their idea. So even the Christian, religious persons, they also open hospital to give relief to the patient. So that is not the program. The program is why he should fall sick and come to the hospital? Precaution is better than cure. One comes to the hospital for cure, but why not take the precaution so that he may not have to come to the hospital for cure? That is Vedic civilization. They have different prescribed rules and regulations so that a person may not fall sick. The modern idea is that "Let them fall sick; *we have got hospitals and treat him, and he'll be cured." But he is cured, again he falls sick. That is going on. They have no program for precaution. They have program for cure. But actually, precaution is better than cure. We are taking precaution. So other fools, rascals, they are thinking, "What these people are doing? They have no hospital, they have no this program, that," according to them. Just like our Vivekananda, he prescribed daridra*-nārāyaṇa-sevā. The same thing—hospital. We kill all animals, and the hospital patient is given the meat for improvement of the health. But he does not know that this is not curing; *he is become implicated in his karma. He has to be killed again, and eaten by the other animals. That he does not know. They do not accept karma*-phala. Hmm? The result of fruitive activities, they do not accept. But you have to accept. There is no excuse. If you contaminate some disease, you must suffer from that disease. There is no excuse. *So kriyā*-karma, you have to enjoy or suffer the result of karma. Karma-bandhana. But when you act for Kṛṣṇa, then you are mukta. Yajñārthāt karma anyatra karma (BG 3.9). Karma must be there. If you act for Kṛṣṇa, then it is all right, and if you act for your sense gratification, then there is bondage. If you do not take education, if you remain fools and rascals, then you will suffer and create disturbance for others also. Therefore everyone must be educated, good citizens. It is good for him, good for others. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So you go on reading. Pradyumna: Translation: "One should engage oneself in the practice of yoga with undeviating determination and faith. One should abandon, without exception, all material desires born of false ego and thus control all the senses on all sides by the mind." *Purport: "The yoga practitioner should be determined and should patiently prosecute the practice without deviation. One should be sure of success at the end and pursue this course with great perseverance, not becoming discouraged if there is any delay in the attainment of success. Success is sure for the rigid practitioner. Regarding bhakti*-yoga, Rūpa Gosvāmī says: *'The process of bhakti*-yoga can be executed successfully with full-hearted enthusiasm, perseverance and determination by following the prescribed duties in the association of devotees and by engaging completely in activities of goodness.' As for determination, one should follow the example of the sparrow who lost her eggs in the waves of the ocean. A sparrow laid her eggs on the shore of the ocean, but the big ocean carried away the eggs on its waves. The sparrow became very upset and asked the ocean to return her eggs. The ocean did not even consider her appeal. So the sparrow decided to dry up the ocean. She began to pick out the water in her small beak, and everyone laughed at her for her impossible determination. The news of her activity spread, and at last Garuḍa, the gigantic bird carrier of Lord Viṣṇu, heard it. He became compassionate toward his small sister bird, and so he came to see the sparrow. Garuḍa was very pleased by the determination of the small sparrow, and he promised to help. Thus Garuḍa at once asked the ocean to return her eggs lest he himself take up the work of the sparrow. The ocean was frightened at this, and returned the eggs. Thus the sparrow became happy by the grace of Garuḍa. Similarly, the practice of yoga, especially bhakti-yoga in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, may appear to be a very difficult job, but if anyone follows the principles with great determination, the Lord will surely help, for God helps those who help themselves." Prabhupāda: Now, questions? Pradyumna: Any questions? Devotee (1): So is there ever, for someone whose determination wavers and slackens here and there, is there ever a point where the neophyte devotee is in danger of just forgetting everything and falling, tumbling completely backwards? *Prabhupāda: Everyone is neophyte. He should practice determination, that's all. If he cannot practice, then why should he enter into this association? Let him remain aloof. One who has entered with the determination that "I must practice," so if he cannot practice, then why this make*-show that "I belong to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. I am initiated." Why this farce? He must practice with determination, that "By practicing I'll be success." That is wanted. He has no determination, why should he make a show? Dṛḍha-vrata. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28). Dṛḍha-vrata, that is wanted, determination. Hmm, go on. When one is determined, his success is assured. If he's not determined, then success or failure. Devotee (2): Can one develop determination gradually? *Prabhupāda: Why gradually? When you promise before your spiritual master that no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating, why should you fall down? If you have no determination, why should you promise in presence of the Deity, fire, spiritual master, Vaiṣṇava? Why do you make this farce, if you have no determination? If you want to make it a farce, that depends on you. But you should not. Devotee (2): When we make that promise . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, you should not fall down. That is determination. That is gentleman's determination, that "I have given my promise. Why shall I fall down?" That is determination. "I must respect promise." That is called dṛḍha*-vrata. So he'll success. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we want to cheat, that is another thing. If we have no determination, we should not take up this life. Therefore, chance is given that "Stay with us for six months or one year, be determined. Then be initiated." If you are not determined, what is the use of false initiation? Devotee (2): Sometimes this weakness seems to be . . . Prabhupāda: Weakness there . . . You should rectify weakness. Why you should give any importance to weakness? Weakness is weakness. Rectify it. Kulādri: This promise is the minimum determination. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kulādri: This promise of following four regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds daily, that is the minimum determination. Then, from there, he must increase. *Prabhupāda: Initiation means minimum, just beginning. That is the dictionary meaning, initiation. In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta there is a verse, *(to Pradyumna) Explain it. You understand? Śraddhā, śabde, viśvāsa, sudṛḍha, niścaya. Kṛṣṇe, bhakti, kaile, sarva*-karma, kṛta, haya. Pradyumna: The word śraddhā means faith. So by the word faith, we need firm determination or conviction, śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya. Viśvāsa means faith which is sudṛḍha, very . . . sudṛḍha, dṛḍha means firm, and sudṛḍha means very firmly. Niścaya. Niścaya is used here also, sa niścayena yoktavyaḥ. Yoga is to be engaged in, applied with firm . . . Prabhupāda: Faith. Niścaya means conviction. Pradyumna: Conviction. Kṛṣṇe . . . Prabhupāda: Bhakti kaile. *Pradyumna: Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva kṛta*-karma. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-karma kṛta haya. *Pradyumna: Sarva*-karma kṛta haya. And if one engages, if one performs service to Kṛṣṇa, then everything else becomes accomplished? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Everything else becomes accomplished. If one renders service to Kṛṣṇa, then automatically everything else . . . one has no obligations to the material world. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa will say, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66)? Because by that action everything will be done. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. That means He is cheating? There are so many other occupations, say, veda-dharma, samāja-dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, medical dharma, lawyer dharma. You can manufacture so many occupations. Dharma means occupational duties. But if you take only one occupational duty—to serve Kṛṣṇa—all things will be included. Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is instruction. So to accept this principle means firm determination, firm conviction: "Yes, if I serve Kṛṣṇa, then all my other duties will be automatically done." This is firm conviction. "By one stroke, I'll kill so many birds." *Kulādri: Anartha*-nivṛtti? Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Kulādri: Rūpa Gosvāmī says bhajana*-kriyā and then anārtha-nivṛtti. Then all the unwanted things go away. *Prabhupāda: First of all, beginning with kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva*-karma kṛta haya. So bhakti, beginning is ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅga bhajana-kriyā anartha-nivṛttiḥ (CC Madhya 23.14). The material world means simply creating unnecessary duties. Simply anartha. Any material activities, you take, analyze, it is simply useless. Therefore they are called anartha. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Take for example we say no meat-eating. So what is the difficulty there? I have seen in the airplane, they eat meat, a little piece, not a lump. But because everyone is eating little, little, we require huge number of slaughterhouses. But if one decides, "I have got so many preparations to eat, so why shall I eat little meat? . . . (indistinct) . . . I shall forego," immediately he is saved from so many sinful activities. It is not that he will die if he does not eat a little piece of meat, he will die. He'll not die. We are not dying, and we don't take. So similarly everyone, without eating meat, he can live very nicely. In the whole principle, there is no difficulty. *So on this whole principle this whole world is merged into sinful activities. That is called unnecessary. That is material position—unnecessarily creating trouble. There is no necessity. But on account of ignorance, foolish association, sinful life, more and more and more and more going on. Andhā yathāndhair upagīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And the leaders encouraging: "Yes, you do this. Enjoy life." What is his enjoyment? If anyone sees slaughterhouse, will he enjoy? Hmm? What is . . .? He visits a slaughterhouse, is it enjoyment? But he takes as enjoyment. This is anartha: unnecessary, without any meaning. Mad, just like a madman acts, without any meaning. The monkey acts without any meaning. This is called anartha: unnecessarily creating disturbance. Anartha. . . . anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). If you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all anartha will be finished. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. We are no more interested in unnecessary things. Illicit sex—one side they are encouraging contraceptive method. So why they'll not stop illicit sex, then automatically there is contraceptive method? So one side there is encouraged, contraceptive method, another, unlimited, unrestricted sex. This is their civilization. Why not teach him not to practice illicit sex? Then everything is done automatically. There's no need of contraceptive method. If one is trained up to indulge in sex only for begetting nice children, there is already contraceptive method. There is no necessity of unnecessarily producing cats and dogs children. *So that requires training, determination. So śāstra says you should not become father if you cannot train up your children to save him from death. Who is the father who's training? To save him from the cycle of birth and death means to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if you are not yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, how you can train up your children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? This is determination, that "If I cannot train my children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and thus avoid the botheration of birth and death, I shall not have sex." That determination will save so many troubles. That can be done by practice. By engaging the mind in Kṛṣṇa, it is possible. The more you advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll lose interest in this sex life. In Vaikuṇṭha there is no sex life because the sex pleasure is not the foremost pleasure in the Vaikuṇṭhaloka. The sex pleasure is foremost here in this material world. They have got so much transcendental spiritual pleasure, this sex pleasure—they are astonished: is that pleasure? Phu! (makes spitting sound) Yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāma . . . (Yāmunācārya). That stage is possible. Still there are so many brahmacārīs. So everything depends on practice. Abhyāsa yoga-yuktena (BG 8.8). That requires determination. (aside) Where did you go, to take bath? Pālikā: This house just across. Prabhupāda: There is water? Well? No. Pālikā: There are barrels there, filling them daily. Prabhupāda: Oh. Why not well? Have a big well? Kulādri: They are getting water also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from this well. Your well is also going to that side. Prabhupāda: Yes. Have several wells in all places. That is nice. Is it very expensive? Kulādri: It's expensive. *Prabhupāda: It is more expensive than carrying water and consume petrol? That is laziness. Once you have a well, then you save so much trouble. Get one well in each, our house. It is here very deep, uh? To get well? Tube*-well? But there are so many creeks. Kulādri: We have what is called a spring house. It's pure spring water. It's caught in reservoir. Prabhupāda: Where is it? *Kulādri: At the other farm we have, as well as tube*-well. Prabhupāda: Water must be. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if in the spiritual sky there is no sex life . . . Prabhupāda: You can store the snow. Yes. Big, big hole, and collect the snow, and put it here and cover it, it will stay. Is it not? Kulādri: We have so much water, though, running off the hill, we can make lakes. We have three lakes now. Prabhupāda: Then? Why don't you do it? *Kulādri: You saw the Rādhā*-kuṇḍa in the movie, in the film. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one returns to his svarūpa, his natural form, how does . . . *Prabhupāda: First of all, anartha*-nivṛtti. You are accustomed to so many bad habits. First of all try to rectify it, then talk of svarūpa. Where is your svarūpa? Simply wasting time. A man is diseased, he's thinking, "When I shall be cured I shall eat, go to this hotel, I shall eat like this." First of all cure, then talk of eating this and that. Svarūpa . . . when you are cured, that is svarūpa. So long you are not cured, what is the use of talking svarūpa? First business is cure yourself. Anartha-nivṛtti. That is anartha-nivṛtti. Then svarūpa will come. That is the bābājīs. In Vṛndāvana, you have seen? Siddha-praṇālī. *Pradyumna: Ah, siddha*-praṇālī, siddha-deha. Prabhupāda: They are smoking and having illicit sex with one dozen women—svarūpa. Rascal. This is called sahajiyā, a rascal. Condemned. Where is your svarūpa? Don't talk unnecessarily. First of all come to svarūpa, then talk of svarūpa. Devotee (1): So our motivation should be to get free from birth, disease, old age and death. *Prabhupāda: That is already explained. But you must be determined how to execute devotional service. Without determined devotional service, how we can attain that position? So what is the use of talking, utopian? First business is anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Ādau śraddhā tathaḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15). You adopt this means that you have got full faith that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness will save me." Then you live with devotees who are similarly determined. Then you execute devotional service. Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, you'll be free from all these . . . these are the stages. There is . . . up to anartha-nivṛtti, you have to struggle very hard with determination, and then automatically everything will come. Tato niṣṭhā tato rucis tataḥ, athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ. So before svarūpa, anartha-nivṛtti, don't expect all these. (pause) Prabhupāda: Read. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: This is practice. Pradyumna: "Gradually, step by step, with full conviction, one should become situated in trance by means of intelligence, and thus the mind should be fixed on the self alone and should think of nothing else." Purport: "By proper conviction and intelligence one should gradually cease sense activities. This is called pratyāhāra. The mind, being controlled by conviction, meditation and cessation of the senses, should be situated in trance, or samādhi. At that time there is no longer any danger of becoming engaged in the material conception of life. In other words, although one is involved with matter, as long as the material body exists, one should not think about sense gratification. One should think of no pleasure aside from the pleasure of the Supreme Self. This state is easily attained by directly practicing Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Kulādri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, before you said the patient has no intelligence. Prabhupāda: Therefore he requires spiritual master's guidance. Because he is rascal. What is the use of accepting a spiritual master? If you want to be cured independently, what is the use of calling a physician, consulting a physician? You do it yourself. (pause) Prabhupāda: Whether our cows are left now? We don't find cows. *Kulādri: They are at Govindajī temple. They are at the . . . where we will build Govindajī, at the main farm, Bahulāvana, for Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra, and some at Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana they are kept free to roam around, but at our farm in Bahulāvana they have to be in pastures. Prabhupāda: Last time I saw some cows here. Kulādri: Yes, this pasture. Prabhupāda: Still there? Kulādri: No. Devotee (4): This pasture is through now, is it not? For a while. This pasture is through for a while. It must grow back. They are on another pasture. Kulādri: Today we had three calves born, all female heifers. (pause) Prabhupāda: Yes, go on. Devotee (4): The difficulty is that we cannot understand . . . we cannot feel what pleases Kṛṣṇa now, yet we can feel what pleases us, and that is the difficulty? Prabhupāda: You have no feeling; that everyone knows. Therefore you have to carry out the order of spiritual master, that's all. Devotee (1): If we try to please Kṛṣṇa with all of our service and activities, that automatically brings pleasure to the self? *Prabhupāda: You cannot please Kṛṣṇa directly. You please your spiritual master, Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. If you want to please directly Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. That is concoction. You cannot please. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ. You have to please your spiritual master, then Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Don't jump. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya. What is that song you daily sing? What is that? Pradyumna: "By the words of the spiritual master our mind becomes conclusive from . . ." Prabhupāda: Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't concoct. Don't you sing daily? Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't manufacture ideas. That is dangerous. Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches by His example. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karilā śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī that "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one, so he has chastised Me, that 'Don't try to read Vedānta; chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing." (pause) Prabhupāda: (loud motorcycle in background) Just hear. He has come to this turn. This sound is purposefully created? (motorbike going back and forth through much of the tape) Kulādri: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Just to show that he has a motorcycle? Or what is purpose? Kulādri: They have given us trouble sometimes. Prabhupāda: Demons. Kulādri: When your palace is on the other side, they won't disturb. And we will have walls. Prabhupāda: No. They don't like us. Kulādri: They are doing better than before, but still they are somewhat envious. *Prabhupāda: Everywhere this world is like that. Even the father will give trouble, Prahlāda Mahārāja, what to speak of others. Demon father is giving trouble to a Vaiṣṇava son. And not grown*-up son—five years old, innocent—but he's giving trouble. Devotee (3): When we had sickness, the state police became very interested in us, and today a state policeman stopped me and asked if you were here. So he seems to be paying special attention that you are here now, and he's very interested. Prabhupāda: However demon may be, they can appreciate that these are ideal characters. *Devotee (4): All these state police, they purchased Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee (4): All these state police, they purchased Bhagavad*-gītā. (sound of motorcycles) Prabhupāda: Oh. (end) Conversation A -- June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA Prabhupāda: So, what news? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we've distributed about 70,000 magazines so far this month. So I think we'll reach 100,000 in this month. Even though we are getting much harassment from the police, still we are going on. Prabhupāda: Why harassment? What is the fault? (break) Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They are mostly godless, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They see us as a nuisance to the public. We are threatening their sense gratification. Kīrtanānanda: What fault did Prahlāda have? Prabhupāda: Sense gratification, we are refusing them? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We are threatening their sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So it is bad? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: It is bad for their way of life. Just like Prahlāda was preaching to his school friends. And I think almost 20,000 big books so far. Prabhupāda: "So far" means? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Up to this month, for the first three weeks. Hari-śauri: Means there's one more, one more week. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Nine days left. Prabhupāda: What is your party doing? Kīrtanānanda: What is what? Prabhupāda: Your party, selling books? Kīrtanānanda: I don't know what the figures are. Prabhupāda: No, your line is this farming. Kīrtanānanda: Per capita, we distribute more books. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: Per man, we distribute more books than they do. I think per man we distribute more than anybody in ISKCON. Prabhupāda: And still they are maintaining this farm. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And building very nice buildings. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Very nice projects they are building. Prabhupāda: This project should be advanced—plain living, high thinking. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I think we'll take around that film of New Vrindavan to all the colleges this year when we are preaching, and show it to the students as our practical example. Prabhupāda: This is nasty civilization, unnecessarily increasing necessities of life. Anartha. Kīrtanānanda: We would not have understood you if you had said that eight, ten years ago. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: Ten years ago I know I could not have understood you if you had said that. Now I understand a little bit. *Prabhupāda: Now suppose these electric light. So, crude form of light, we grow some castor seed, everything from the earth. This also you are getting from earth, petroleum, and running on machine, and electricity is generated. But really you are getting the impetus from the earth. As soon as the petroleum supply is stopped, everything stopped. But for this purpose you have to search out petroleum from the middle of ocean, boring. Therefore it is ugra*-karma. The purpose is that you grow some castor seed, press it, get oil, put in any pot, and one wick, the light is there. Light is there. So even understanding that you have improved the lighting system, but that is not the only necessity of my life. But to improve from the castor seed lamp, castor oil lamp, to this electricity, you have to work so hard. You have to go to the middle of ocean and drill it and get out petroleum and . . . in this way your real business of life is finished. The energy and the intelligence you got for your self-realization or your, this precarious position, constantly dying and taking birth in various species of life, this is your problem, and this was to be solved in human life, you have got advanced intelligence. But that intelligence is utilized from castor seed lamp to the electric lamp. That's all. Just try to understand. What is that improvement? And for this improving from castor seed oil lamp to electricity lamp, you forget your real business. You lost yourself. This civilization is going on. This is called māyā. For some fictitious happiness you lose your whole purpose of life. It is difficult to understand, but the fact is there. But you are under the control of nature; you have to give up this body. All right, you make very nice arrangement to live here, nature will not allow you to live. You must die. And after death you are going to get another body. So in this body, working for high grade electricity lamp, you work so hard, have got your own business, and next life, by the laws of nature if you get the body of a dog, then what is the benefit? That you cannot check. What is the answer? Hmm? Kulādri: Simple living, high thinking. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kulādri: Simple living. Prabhupāda: No, here is the charge. Now what is your answer? In this life you are living very comfortably, next life if I'm going to be a dog, then this is the charge. Now how this class of men will answer it? Can he deny that he's not going to be a dog? Kīrtanānanda: He says he doesn't believe it. *Prabhupāda: You believe or not believe. Just like this child, it is boy, he does not know anything. But I know, his mother knows, his father knows that he's going to be young man. If he says, "No, I am not going to be young man," that is childish. That is childish. But the father, mother, friends know that the boy is going to grow a young man, so he should be educated and he should be properly situated. That is the guardian's business. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. So that he doesn't know, that does not mean it is not fact. So similarly, if rascals say, "I don't believe it," that's not a fact. He is a rascal, mad, he may say so, but that is not the fact. Karaṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgasya ( BG 13.22). Real fact is that he'll have to accept a body according to the quality of development. Kīrtanānanda: But what if they say that "Actually, this life of growing the castor seed is very difficult, farming is very difficult. It is easier to go to the factory for eight hours, and then I come home with my money and I enjoy." Prabhupāda: No, you enjoy, but by enjoying, if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Your real business is that you have got this human form of body to improve your next life. You are going to have a next life. Suppose you are going to be a dog. Is that success? So you must know the science that instead of becoming dog, how shall you become God. That is intelligence. Kīrtanānanda: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to dig a well? Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to . . . *Prabhupāda: No, you require lamp. So you finish that lamping business as simply as possible. In the balance time you save, you improve your self*-realization. That is the life. Just like this child, he wants to play. He does not go to school, does not take an education, and he improves type of toils, toys, he's engaged in improved type of football playing, and . . . then is that very good intelligence? Kīrtanānanda: But nobody works longer hours than the farmer. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: No one works harder than the farmer. The farmer has to work very hard. Prabhupāda: No, our point is that if you think that electricity improvement is better than farming, we have no objection. But if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Kīrtanānanda: No, of course not. *Prabhupāda: That is our point. Our real business is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So simply for improving the condition of life, the necessities of life, if I forget my real business, is that intelligent? Therefore it is said duṣkṛtinaḥ. Kṛti means merit. But merit is being utilized for sinful activities. Take for example the meat*-eaters. When man was . . . the uncivilized man is still there. In the uncivilized way they are living in the jungle. They require to eat something. So they stone over an animal going, and the animal dies, and then they eat. Now instead of killing the animal by stoning, if you have discovered scientific machine in the slaughterhouse to kill the animal, is that improvement? If you think this is advancement, "Now we have discovered very technical machine. Instead of stoning one animal, killing, it takes so much time, hundreds and thousands of animals you can kill in one hour," do you think that is improvement? That is going on. They think this is improvement. When we were uncivilized, we were stoning some animal and killing and eating, now we are . . . business is the same—animal killing and eating—but we have improved the machine how to kill. This is going on. This is going on as advancement of civilization. Hmm? What is your answer? Is that advancement of civilization? Now you are civilized, instead of killing the animal, you just take milk from it without killing and make so many nice preparations, and that is civilization. But killing is sinful. You have no right to kill any animal, even an ant, because you cannot give life to anyone. It is nature's law, God's law. So infringement on the laws of nature or God, it is sinful activities. So you are utilizing your merit for this sinful activity. Therefore it is called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Merit is there, but it is utilized for sinful activities. That is defect of the modern civilization. Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember once you said . . . Prabhupāda: These questions that "I believe," "I don't believe," you are rascal; *what is the meaning of your believe or not believing? You are, after all, a rascal. Just like a child will say something, "I don't believe." The mother will say, "You are rascal. You must go to school." So rascals believe or not believe, what is the meaning? Mūḍha. It is the law of nature. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). The example is given that this boy will change his body, dehāntara-prāptir. He'll become a young boy, young man. This body will not remain. What is the difficulty to understand, "Yes, this body will not remain"? While he came out of the womb of the mother, that was another body. But these rascals, they do not understand it. It is very difficult to deal with the rascals, that's a fact, but . . . whatever they are doing is all rascaldom, that's all. And forgetting their real business. So your son, does he believe that he's going to be a young man? (asks child) You believe? (laughs) Huh? What is your . . . Kulaśekhara: I remember once when we were staying at John Lennon's estate, you said to me . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Kulaśekhara: At John Lennon's estate, remember? In London. You said to me, the tractor, you said, this is the cause of all the trouble. That it took all the work from the young men, and they went to the city and became entangled in the sense gratification in the cities. So I've noticed in the city there's much more passion, but living in the country is simpler. Prabhupāda: Yes. Passion there must be. When you have got the facility, naturally we are lusty, and we have got the facility, then we take to it. Kulaśekhara: The country is more peaceful. It's easier to think of spiritual life. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Less disease. Less brain*-taxing. Everything is less. So balance time, utilize for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if you have got temple, it is very happy life. Just for your food work little, and balance time engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is ideal life. (pause) Prabhupāda: Just see minute fibers on the flower. Can anyone manufacture this? So small fibers. And how brilliant it is. If you study only one flower, you become God conscious. There is a machine which we call nature. From that machine, everything is coming. But how machine is perfect? And who has discovered this machine? Kulaśekhara: In London you said they do not know that the butterflies and flowers are painted, but Kṛṣṇa paints them with thought. *Prabhupāda: Yes. How you can expect without painting it has come so beautiful? This is foolishness, "nature." What is this nature? Everything is being done by the machine of Kṛṣṇa. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (CC Madhya 13.65, purport). Anyway, improve this mode of life. Live in open place, produce your food grain, produce your milk, save time, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Plain living, high thinking—ideal life. Artificial necessities of life do increase your so*-called comfort, but if you forget your real business, that is suicidal. We want to stop this suicidal policy. We don't want to stop the modern advancement of technology, although the so-called advancement technology is suicidal. But we don't talk of this. (laughter) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore given a simple formula—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even in your technological factories, you can chant. What is the wrong there? You go on pulling on with your machine and chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: They know that if people take up the chanting, gradually they will give up this technology. Prabhupāda: That is, of course. Kīrtanānanda: You are actually putting the seeds of their destruction. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, what is destruction? It is, rather, construction. (laughter) He'll live. He'll live forever. This is destruction. You have to change body. But our method, this tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9): you don't get anymore material body. So that is saving. And without this? Tathā dehāntara*-praptir. Then you have to accept another body. So which is better: to accept another material body or no more accepting material body? Which is better? But as soon as you accept material body, you have to suffer. Material body means suffering. So that requires knowledge. If we finish our suffering up to this body, that is intelligent. And if we create another body for suffering, is that intelligent? That you have to . . . unless you understand Kṛṣṇa, you have to accept. There is no alternative. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They are so dull they cannot understand this simple truth, that as the child, boy, is accepting another body, we have to accept another body. They cannot understand. So dull brain. It will take five hundred years to teach them this very simple fact. Huh? Their education is so advanced. (laughter) Therefore mūḍha, the word is used. So-called education keeps them as an ass. Cannot understand the simple truth. (pause) Prabhupāda: So everyone is getting milk? How much? Kīrtanānanda: As much as they want. Prabhupāda: As much as they want, then jaundice. (laughter) Too much is not good. They may take minimum half pound per head. Kīrtanānanda: Minimum. Prabhupāda: Minimum. And maximum one pound. Not more than that. But "Because there is enough, let us eat," no. That is not good. But children must get at least one pound milk. If they drink more milk they become stout and strong. Kīrtanānanda: They get more than one pound. They get at least two pounds. Prabhupāda: Then their life is built up strong, and nice brain to understand. Do they not see the benefit of the society, that we are not killing children, we are maintaining them with sufficient milk? Is it not better civilization? And they are, for fear of overpopulation, they are killing. The mother is killing the child. Is that civilization? *Kīrtanānanda: But in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that those in the mode of ignorance, they take irreligion to be religion and religion to be irreligion. *Prabhupāda: No, religion . . . there is no religion for them, but there is no morality even. Here we are having so many children. We don't brag that "We cannot maintain these children. Kill them." We never say that. Never mind. Let them be trained up as Kṛṣṇa conscious, live comfortably, take milk. So which is better civilization? Running with motorcar, put*-put-put-put-put-put-put-put and killing child? Is that civilization? Kīrtanānanda: Most of these children are not even our own. They have been taken in from . . . Prabhupāda: Just see, that means we welcome. Kīrtanānanda: . . . mothers without fathers, and . . . Prabhupāda: That means we welcome and they kill. So why do they not find the distinction between this civilization, that civilization? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have no arguments against this, except that they want to be free. In colleges . . . Prabhupāda: But they are not free. That means they are fools. They are not free, still they are thinking "free." That is foolishness. If you are actually free, that is another thing, (laughs) but you are not free. You are responsible for even a minute work or misdeed, you are responsible. Where is your freedom? That freedom means ahaṅkāra vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). The rascal, foolish, bewildered, he's thinking that he's free. Where is your freedom? Nature is working. If you are free, then why you are dying? If you are free, then do not die. Nobody wants to die. What is the answer? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will give some nonsense answer. Prabhupāda: What is that nonsense? In nonsense there must be some sense also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they would like both. Like the Christians, they would like to enjoy sinful life and at the same time live forever. Prabhupāda: No, we don't talk of any sect; we are talking of the general principles. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Their tendency is . . . Prabhupāda: Now the people's tendency, general tendency is, unless he's a madman, nobody is prepared to die. But he has to die. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "But I accept death as part of life." Prabhupāda: Part of life? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Yes, it's natural. So I don't . . . I'm not afraid." Prabhupāda: Then when there is some sign of death, why do you go away? Sit down and die. (laughter) You don't accept that. You are talking foolishly. You don't want to die. That is a fact. You are talking foolishly, that "I accept it," but you don't accept it. That is the fact. But because you have no other way, then you say, "I accept it." The real fact is this, that you do not wish to die, but you find that there is no other alternative, "Then I accept it. All right." So you can talk like that, foolishly, but intelligent man, you do not want to die. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One time, one boy said that. So as soon as he said it, I picked up a stick and went like that: "Oh!" and said "See, you are afraid." And he said, "No, I'm not afraid." So I went—and he was showing fear. Prabhupāda: Even dog is afraid, what to speak of man. The animals, when they are taken to be slaughtered, they cry. So animal is afraid of death, why not man? Everyone is afraid. Kulādri: Prabhupāda? They say, "Why you worry so much about death? We are living. We are enjoying life. Why do you worry about death?" Prabhupāda: Because we are intelligent. I love you. Therefore you'll die and you'll become a dog, so I am taking sympathy on you, that "Don't become a dog." Every human being is anxious. The example is given just like a child flying kite and is going this way, this way, on the roof. Now on the edge of the roof, so one gentleman standing, "Hey, you'll fall down." That is his duty. He says, "Why you are checking me?" (laughter) "Why you are checking me?" "Because I am human being. You are foolish boy. Therefore I am checking you." That is natural. Even a child is . . . or the boy is not his son, but because he is a gentleman, he wants to give him some protection. It is the duty of gentleman. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to the Indians that "You become perfect and go and give this knowledge to the rest of the world. They are all rascals." *It is para*-upakāra, humanitarian. You may say, "Why do you bother?" But as a human being, I bother. Every human being will do that. Kṛṣṇa comes, bothering Himself. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). "When these have become rascals, fools, I come, again advise them." So those who are servants of God, they are also doing the same thing, on behalf of God. Their position is therefore exalted. They should be worshiped as God because they are doing the work of God. They are not cheating public. (pause) Prabhupāda: So improve this farming very nicely. So the cows, they should be given as much as possible pasturing. If you simply drink little milk, and little vegetables, that will supply all vitamins. You do not require to take vitamin pills. No, there is no need. It has got all the vitamins. That is admitted. Vitamin A, D, in milk, they say so. And fruits, vitamin C. In this way, in fruits, vegetables, grains, milk, all vitamins are there. Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if you take milk in other forms, like if you eat cheese, if you take curd or cheese, is it the same as drinking milk or . . . ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Any milk preparation. And if you have got enough milk, then keep it as ghee and open restaurant in the city. Give them nice samosā, kachorī. So in exchange you get money. You require little money, so that money will help you. Actually, in India before these British, the poorer class of men, they were simply keeping say a dozen of cows, and that was their means of livelihood, that's all. From the milk they'll eat the, that, little milk, then yogurt, then . . . what is called? It is another milk? Devotees: Casein? Curd? Cheese? Viśākhā: Buttermilk. Prabhupāda: Buttermilk, yes. And in this way, after drinking and eating so many things, whatever balance is there, churn it and they get ghee, and that ghee is kept in stock. On the market day, they go to the city and sell it. You'll find in Vṛndāvana, so many cultivators, they have brought ghee. So the inhabitants of the city, town, they require ghee, they purchase, and with that money they get some necessities, just like some oil or some spices, salt, like this, which is not available. In this way . . . Hari-śauri: How is it they are so keen on buffalo milk in India? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: The Indians, they seem to prefer buffalo milk to cow milk. Prabhupāda: No, cow milk is not available, therefore buffalo milk contains more fat. But milk means cow's milk. What is the daily milk? Kīrtanānanda: About a thousand pounds. *Prabhupāda: Those who are meat*-eaters, why don't you inform them, when a cow dies, that "You can take it." Kīrtanānanda: That would be illegal. Prabhupāda: Why? Legal, illegal, that is their whims. Devotee: Hmm. That's a fact. Kīrtanānanda: But that will get us in trouble. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is, they can give us. They are in power, they can do that. But legally . . . Kīrtanānanda: Yes, you are right. If they want to eat, let them take the dead cow. Prabhupāda: They take it. Free, they get without any price. They get the skin, they get flesh. Let them eat. We are not going to charge for the . . . You take it. Why maintain slaughterhouse? Take this. Kīrtanānanda: They even object if you let the animals, wild animals, eat the dead cow. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: They even object if you let the wild animals eat. They want it buried. Prabhupāda: Oh, jackals or fox, if they come, they don't like it. Kīrtanānanda: The jackals like it. Prabhupāda: No, jackals like it, (laughter) but government . . . Kīrtanānanda: Government doesn't like it. *Prabhupāda: Government will like when the jackal takes your animal. They will eat it, they will not attack somebody else, because if they are not hungry they don't attack. Even tiger or any ferocious animal, if they are satisfied in hunger, no hunger, they don't attack. In the jungle, tiger and other animals, they live together. When they are hungry, they attack. So at least you can advertise that here is a cow, available free. Take it, those who are meat*-eaters. Take free without any price. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most meat*-eaters would consider it disgusting. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most meat*-eaters would consider it disgusting to have to cut cow open. Prabhupāda: Disgusting? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. If they had to do it themselves they would consider it abominable. Prabhupāda: No, some of them can do it, make business. As there are butchers, as they are selling meat, they can take it, they'll make more profit. From slaughterhouse, if they purchase, they have to pay, but here they get free. The hotel man, they can get free. The tannery expert, he'll get this skin free. (break) I have seen they are eating the lobster, it is so decomposed it has become exactly like pus and they are eating. That argument is not valid. Kīrtanānanda: They cannot even eat the animal when it is fresh. They never eat beef fresh. It must age for at least three weeks, otherwise it is not tasty. (laughter) *Hari-śauri: I remember once there was one man, he was advertising himself . . . he was touring from one country to another, and he was advertising himself as being an expert meat*-eater. And he said . . . one of his statements was you couldn't eat a beefsteak until it had little white spots all over it; then it was ready to eat. Prabhupāda: White spot means decomposed. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Bacteria. Prabhupāda: Fungus. Nānā yoni brāhmaṇa kare kadārya bhakṣaṇa kari' tāra janma adho pate yāya. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can point out all the defects in their system, but then they say, "But there is no proof that such a perfect society has ever existed as you speak of. We have no evidence that such a perfect society exists." Prabhupāda: You can see, come and see with us. Kīrtanānanda: Show them our movie. Prabhupāda: Live in our New Vrindavan, you'll see. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Then they say, "Well, that is all right for you, but that is not practical for everyone." Kīrtanānanda: Why not? We are human beings, you are human being. Prabhupāda: So what is not practical for you, our system, your system is also not practical for us. We cannot live in this way. Anyway, if you can maintain a perfect community of plain living, high thinking, that is sufficient. We do not canvass, but naturally they will see that this is convenient. After all, they are human beings. They are learning. So that is part of our business to preach, but to practice personally, that is our main business. To practice personally, that is our main business. Not that everyone will be preacher, but at least his own life be perfect. (looking at Brijbasi Spirit magazine?)What is this kijariya? Kulaśekhara: I don't know if it's spelled right, Prabhupāda. Hari-śauri: Kī jaya. Kulaśekhara: Kī jaya Prabhupāda: Kī jaya. Oh. Kulaśekhara: It is misspelled? I'm no Sanskrit scholar, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Guruban dhāma kī, that kī should be different. *Kulaśekhara: K*-i? Prabhupāda: No, not kijaya. Kī one word, jaya one word. Just like Guruban one word, dhāma one word. Similarly kī one word, and jaya one. Kulaśekhara: The spelling is correct though? *Prabhupāda: Spelling? Yes, but generally k*-i. Kulaśekhara: I couldn't find it. I looked in many books, but I couldn't find kī jaya. Prabhupāda: Jaya is all right. Devotee: What does kī mean? Prabhupāda: Kī means possessive, "of." Kulaśekhara: Have you been receiving the past copies of the magazine, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kulaśekhara: Have you been receiving the past issues? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda read the last issue in Hawaii. I remember you read through the last issue with a brown cover, in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: So how you make this double color? Twice printed? Kulaśekhara: Three times. Red, black and yellow. *Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana*-candra? No. *Kīrtanānanda: Vṛndāvana*-natha. Prabhupāda: Where? Kīrtanānanda: He is at the original farm where you stayed. This is the pūjārī. Very, very nice boy. He also makes that nice sandeśa. Rādhānatha. Prabhupāda: And who makes the siṅgāra? Kīrtanānanda: Kuladri. Hari-śauri: Kuladri makes those. He's doing some special thing to them. Prabhupāda: They are not giving me. (laughter) Hari-śauri: He's doing it tonight. Kīrtanānanda: He's doing it right now. You'll have it tonight. Hari-śauri: He's doing it now. Prabhupāda: Not night. Kīrtanānanda: They said you want it at night. When would you like it? Noon? Prabhupāda: Morning. Kīrtanānanda: Breakfast. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very nice. You decorate Kṛṣṇa very nicely, then you'll forget the business of decorating your person. This is the effect. Because people are busy how to decorate himself. They are spending so much money. Huh? But if you decorate Kṛṣṇa nicely, you'll forget this propensity. This is the process. Kulaśekhara: You also said if you decorate Kṛṣṇa, make Kṛṣṇa beautiful, your heart will become beautiful. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not fashion; it is for our benefit. By seeing Kṛṣṇa beautifully decorated, he'll be satisfied. He'll have no more propensity, "Let me go to the market and find out some nice . . . (indistinct) . . . and decorate myself." Finished. So hundreds and thousands of people in the temple, by seeing Kṛṣṇa nicely decorated, he's satisfied. Everyone is satisfied. *Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra are more beautiful than the Deities in London. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (laughter) London differently. *Kulaśekhara: They are very beautiful, but Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra . . . *Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana*-candra is village beauty, and He is London beauty. He's town beauty. *Kulaśekhara: I have not seen more beautiful anywhere than Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra. The jewelry . . . Prabhupāda: No. Every one is beautiful, but everyone praise our London Deity. *Kīrtanānanda: They have not seen Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra yet. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Kīrtanānanda: They have not seen yet Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra. Prabhupāda: No, they have seen the picture. (pause) Prabhupāda: So how we can go there? Kīrtanānanda: I can take you. Prabhupāda: By car? Kīrtanānanda: By truck. Prabhupāda: By truck? (laughter) Cannot go by car? Difficult. Kīrtanānanda: I wouldn't want to try it in a car. Might get . . . the road is not bad, but it is not quite good enough for a car. Prabhupāda: The same way we have to go? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, but the road has been improved. Prabhupāda: So one day we can go. Kīrtanānanda: When it dries up. (pause) Prabhupāda: Your father is an architect, I see. Kulaśekhara: No, he's working in the docks. Prabhupāda: Oh. His father came to see me in London. Kulaśekhara: He used to chauffeur you in his car. He would drive you in his car from the airport. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kulaśekhara: He is a good man, but he's not intelligent. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, he'll profit by your activities. Kṛṣṇa will give concession to your family. Because you are Vaiṣṇava, everyone will get the profit. Kulaśekhara: In London you said thirteen generations. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is special concession. Hiraṇyakaśipu was given, such a demon. But your father is not a demon. He may be less intelligent, that is another thing. So Kṛṣṇa is prepared to give facility to a demon father of a devotee. Kulaśekhara: Anyone who gets to render you personal service, Prabhupāda, they are most blessed, they are most fortunate. Prabhupāda: Anyway, you have got this jewel. Utilize it properly, make your life perfect. But we don't say that you starve, you unnecessarily give trouble to your body. No. Eat nicely but simply, and save time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our program. Nanda Mahārāja was a village man. Kṛṣṇa was a village boy. Kṛṣṇa could live in New Delhi, but He did not like that. He lived in Vṛndāvana, a village. But one difficulty is that it is not plain land. Little troublesome, but not very much troublesome. So is there any difficulty of not being a plain land? Kīrtanānanda: It makes farming more difficult on the hill. It takes more time, more work. Prabhupāda: Hard work. Kīrtanānanda: That is good. Prabhupāda: For cows there is no difficulty. Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: In India, they call pahārhī when they are accustomed to hard work. Those who live on the Himalayan side, they have to work little hard, therefore they are pahārhī. You have accepted others' children also? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Well, especially girls who have no husbands. There are quite a few here. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, you are so kind you don't refuse anybody. That is . . . who is so kind unless one is a Vaiṣṇava? Nobody is kind. Kṛpā*-sindhubhya eva ca (Śrī Vaiṣṇava Praṇāma). Kṛpā-sindhu, ocean of mercy, that is Vaiṣṇava. Never mind what you are; come here, stay, drink milk, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: The children are doing very nicely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: And they will be our future community. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kīrtanānanda: Practically it is impossible to teach these older boys how to use bulls and how to . . . it is very difficult. They cannot do it. But I think if we train the children. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa Himself did it. He was king's son, Nanda Mahārāja. In the childhood, He was taking care of the calves, and when He was grown up, little, He was taking care of the cows. Kṛṣṇa personally showed it. His father could have avoided, "No, no, You don't go. The servants will go." No. "You also go." Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma, both. Balarāma has got the plow, tilling ground, and Kṛṣṇa has got the flute to enchant the cows, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. They were not sitting idly, although Nanda Mahārāja could keep Them without any work. No. They worked, from the beginning of childhood. They would come in the evening and mother would take care of bathing Them, changing dress, and then give nice food, and after taking food They would go to rest. Whole day They worked. Kṛṣṇa never taught that you sit idly. No. Personally He did not do so, neither He taught anyone. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find, Find out this. Hari-śauri: What was that again, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Niyataḥ. You should read Bhagavad*-gītā so thoroughly for everything. That is good lawyer. Good lawyer means in the court, immediately give reference to the judge, "My Lordship, such and such law, under section . . . this is there." He's a good lawyer. Good lawyer means he immediately gives reference to the section on which he's talking. Immediately judgment is there. If there is previous authority and it is recorded in the lawbook, then he doesn't require to argue anymore; the evidence is there. Even in other court, if some judgment is there, they'll be accepted. This is the law. So a good lawyer means he gives references from different courts, the judgment makes easier. Instead of proceeding for a long time, he gives reference—"Here is the judgment, you see," and immediately . . . Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean to keep a set of men lazy, who cannot work. That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone must work to his capacity, prescribed duties. They accuse us that we are escaping. Huh? What is that? We do not escape. We are always busy. Devotee: Recently I had an opportunity to see a . . . (indistinct) . . . farm commune, and I was talking to one of the boys there about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they said, "You are under Swami Prabhupāda?" They said, "We have never seen Prabhupāda smile." I told them that "Yes, birth, death, disease and old age are nothing to smile about." Prabhupāda: There are so many pictures, smiling. (laughter) Devotee: Actually, when you smile it's always beautiful. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have not read your Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are smiling here. Prabhupāda: No. There are so many. Hmm. What is that? *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Purport? "There are many pseudo meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set forth for kṣatriyas. Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart of a mundane man and free him from material contamination. So*-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others." *Prabhupāda: That is not the right way. Kṛṣṇa never said to Arjuna that "You haven't got to fight. You sit down, I shall do everything." He never said that. "You have to fight." Nimitta*-mātraṁ bhava savyaśacin (BG 11.33). "And the result is already created by Me, but you have to make a manifestation of fighting." Just like our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Within eight or ten years we have developed so much. Is it humanly possible? It is Kṛṣṇa's plan. But Kṛṣṇa says that "You go and preach. Take the credit." Yes. It is His plan. Actually everything is done by Kṛṣṇa. He gives the credit to His devotee, that's all. You know the history of the Detroit temple? (laughs) Kīrtanānanda: A little bit. Not too much. Prabhupāda: Detroit temple, it was, that building was constructed at a cost of two million dollars, say some fifty years, sixty years ago. And we purchased it at three hundred thousand dollars. So when they said that there is a nice house, so I told, "Let me go immediately." So I went there and talked with the proprietor. So I liked it very much; it is a wonderful palace. So he asked $350,000. So I talked with him and asked some concession. Then I last bid again, "I'll give you cash, three hundred thousand." So he said, "Yes, I accept." (chuckling) There was no money. (laughter) So the Bombay purchase, you know, it was simply speculation. So Kṛṣṇa is giving us. For a karmī, it is not possible, but Kṛṣṇa gives us all facilities. You have been in that palace, Detroit? Very, very nice. Perhaps the best in our Society, huh? Hari-śauri: Without a doubt. Prabhupāda: London, that is also nice, but not as nice. The building is so strong, and the rooms are so palatial, big, big rooms. One room of this size of the whole . . . Kīrtanānanda: How big is the temple room? Hari-śauri: The temple room is not so big—fifty feet long and about thirty feet wide. Prabhupāda: Bigger than here, double. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Very nice garden. Prabhupāda: Very nice garden, and on the riverside. Kīrtanānanda: Can you bathe in the river? Hari-śauri: Sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes, if you like, you can bathe. Hari-śauri: You can drive a boat in it underneath the house. There's a dock. It's like a garage. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: All the rich people come by in their yachts all day long and wave, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Śrīla Prabhupāda said we should put a sign up on the boat, that they can drive their boat in and take prasādam and read the books. Prabhupāda: Yes. And invite them, give that signboard: "Please come, read our books and take prasādam." Gradually, they will come. Very big garden. Hari-śauri: Seven peacocks. Kīrtanānanda: Is it stone? Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: What is it, the building is stone or . . .? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Stone, marble. With golden work. Hari-śauri: The bathrooms, even the soap dishes are gold. The soap dishes, the toilet roll holder, everything is gold. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Gold wallpaper. Prabhupāda: One floor is like this. Very costly house. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They told me that the prasādam room floor alone, three hundred thousand dollars to build. And you have gotten the whole thing. Prabhupāda: Everywhere it is so beautiful, nice, strong, and quite suitable for our purpose. Everyone is living. Still, big, big three, four rooms, not yet utilized. And climate also is nice, at the present moment, huh? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: I think the same climate here. Hari-śauri: Yes, same as here. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: There was a large swimming pool. Every afternoon all the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, besides that, there is a swimming pool. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We would go out and have water fights. Prabhupāda: And they have kept five peacocks. Hari-śauri: Seven. Prabhupāda: Seven. They are very free moving, here and there, and chanting. Kīrtanānanda: They stay in the grounds? Hari-śauri: They never leave the grounds. They sleep up in one tree. Prabhupāda: They are free to move from one tree to another, but they don't go outside. Only complaint, they are eating flowers. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, they eat all the flowers. Prabhupāda: They are also trained; they are not afraid. They are sitting, you go, they are not afraid. They have been trained up that "We are at home." That animals and any birds can be trained. Just like these cows, they know that all of you are friends. Animals can understand. Even if you can make friends with the tigers and lions. Yes. I have seen it. In that New York exhibition, one man was showing me. He was embracing the lion and playing like dog. I've seen it. Hari-śauri: That used to be a circus trick as well. They used to put their heads in the lion's mouth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They keep them well fed. As long as the lion is well fed, you can put your head in his mouth, but if you don't feed him, then it is dangerous. Prabhupāda: Yes, that comes, if he's animal. (laughter) They can understand that he's giving you food, he's my friend. The love, friendship, everything is there, even in the animals. Devotee: Except God consciousness. Prabhupāda: That is possible in human life. But animal also can become God conscious by association. Kīrtanānanda: Sometimes I've heard you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that love only exists between similar categories. Prabhupāda: Similar categories, the love is very conducive. Otherwise, love is possible with any living entity. The central object of love is Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. The animals love Kṛṣṇa, the human being love Kṛṣṇa, the trees love Kṛṣṇa, the water love Kṛṣṇa—everyone love Kṛṣṇa: central point. That is the perfection of love. The Deity is kept in the same house? Original, that . . . Kīrtanānanda: But it is changed. The house is changed since you were there. Prabhupāda: Oh. "Changed" means? Kīrtanānanda: The whole downstairs has been made into a big area. Prabhupāda: But I see the marble pillar? Kīrtanānanda: Yeah, it has a marble altar. Prabhupāda: Oh. The same altar? Kīrtanānanda: No, no. Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of New Vrindavan. Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: Hmm. All right. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end) Conversation -- June 25, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA *(Conversation and Reading from Srimad*-Bhagavatam Canto 1 and 12) *Devotee (1): These are publicity for the Ratha*-yātrā. This is the article about the building, how it's the most attractive real estate near Cleveland. It's in the paint and flowers and gardens. Prabhupāda: This year's? Devotee (1): Yes. People would drive by the temple, Prabhupāda, and just look. They would drive by and look once, drive a little further and look twice and three times. Prabhupāda: But San Francisco we haven't got our temple. Devotee (1): What's that? Prabhupāda: We haven't got any temple. Devotee (1): No. We used the photograph. We made a publicity notice, a news release, and they printed it directly. It was easier for them. The picture is of San Francisco, but the festival was in Cleveland. Prabhupāda: There is no date? Hmm? Devotee (1): Maybe not in that one article. Other articles, there are dates. Prabhupāda: Is this Cleveland? *Devotee (1): Yes. There are many skyscrapers, tall buildings. There are many tall buildings, and people were looking out at the Ratha*-yātrā cart and at Lord Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: (looking through articles) Here, the date, time is. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We have found, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the buses are going to many of these cities, they have never seen our devotees, because when we go, we are dressed like they are, for distributing the books. So now the boys are going again in the streets with a kīrtana party once a week downtown, and they have all done front*-page newspaper articles, because although they have been reading the books, they have never seen the devotees in many years. I think festivals like this . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: . . . in all these cities would be very advantageous, and all the book distribution . . . *Prabhupāda: And therefore I said that introduce Ratha*-yātrā in every city. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Every city. Prabhupāda: At least wherever we have got our centers. Bring Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. They have received some testimonial from Indian . . . Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. Indian reviews? Prabhupāda: You can open this fan. (fan turned on) I don't want, but . . . *Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, how should we have these Ratha*-yātrā festivals? Should they be big? Should they be big festivals? Should I plan on having three carts next year, or just one, or a small cart? *Prabhupāda: As you can afford. Minimum one cart. Otherwise, three carts. In India the Ratha*-yātrā festival is going on, according to rough estimate, for the last two thousand years, and the crowd never diminishes. One secretary of Parliament or something like that . . . *Hari-śauri: Śrī R. Subramanian, M.A., Deputy Director Research, Lok Sabha Secretariat, National Parliament, New Delhi. Should I read it? "A strange feature of the modern world is that in spite of vast advances in science and technology and the establishment of a good number of institutions for human welfare, mankind has not found true peace and happiness. Knowledge of material sciences and arts has increased tremendously in recent times, and millions of volumes on each fill the libraries the world over. People and leaders in every country are generally well versed in these arts and sciences, but despite their efforts, human society everywhere continues to be in turmoil and distress. The reason is not far to see. It is that they have not learned the science of God, the most fundamental of every other art and science, and fail to apply it to the facts of life. The need of the hour is, therefore, to do it if mankind is not only to survive but flower into a glorious existence. To teach this science of God to people everywhere and to aid them in their progress and development towards the real goal of life, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the most eminently fitted. In fact, this great ancient work of Vyāsa will fill this need of the modern times, for it is a cultural presentation for the respiritualization of the entire human society. His Divine Grace Śrīla A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the founder-ācārya of the ISKCON movement, has taken it upon himself, in addition to his ceaseless travels and other multifarious activities in the service of the Lord, the stupendous task of translating this Sanskrit work into English in about sixty volumes for the welfare and happiness of mankind. It is really astonishing how he is able to do this single-handed, and when one comes to think of this, apart from his other great literary works, one is tempted to wonder if he is not the same Vyāsa Muni reborn today to adapt his own old work (devotees respond enthusiatically) into a universal language of this age for the spiritual upliftment of the modern man. *"So far eight volumes . . ." this should be "eighteen volumes," I think, "eighteen volumes of this most beautiful literature on God have been brought out by ISKCON, and the rest are under preparation. Needless to say that in keeping with the excellence of their other publications, the publishers have seen to it that the printing, get*-up and pictures in these volumes are also of the highest quality, as though to serve as an ornament to the divine contents of the books. This is a rare opportunity to people and leaders of every country, race and community in the world to know and understand the glorious science of God and work for their perfection. I would say that this encyclopedia of spiritual knowledge is more important and fundamental than the encyclopedia of any other branch of knowledge and should, therefore, find a rightful place not only in the public and private libraries, big and small, of educational and other institutions, as also of every household, but above all in the hearts and minds of every man and woman." That seems to be it. Prabhupāda: Now read. Pradyumna: First Canto, Chapter Five. Prabhupāda: You can keep it here. Pradyumna: Synonyms also? Read synonyms also? Prabhupāda: No, just text. Pradyumna: "Sūta Gosvāmī said: Thus the sage among the gods, Nārada . . ." Prabhupāda: Where is your son? Devotee (2): He is at Pennsylvania, the gurukula , for now. Prabhupāda: Your wife? Devotee (2): She is here. She wanted to see you. Prabhupāda: Yes? Devotee (2): She can come in? She can come in for a minute; she has the baby with her. Prabhupāda: All right, let her in. Devotee (2): This is made with wheat from the farm. Pradyumna: He's on the Pennsylvania farm, with Paramānanda. Prabhupāda: Paramānanda is there? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: They are doing well? Devotee (2): Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hear, now. Pradyumna: "Thus the sage among the gods, Nārada, comfortably seated and apparently smiling, addressed the ṛṣi amongst the brāhmaṇas , Vedavyāsa." Purport: "Nārada was smiling because he well knew the great sage Vedavyāsa and the cause of his disappointment. As he will explain gradually, Vyāsadeva's disappointment was due to insufficiency in presenting the science of devotional service. Nārada knew the defect, and it was confirmed by the position of Vyāsa." Text number two. *Translation. "Addressing Vyāsadeva, the son of Parāśara , Nārada inquired: Are you satisfied by identifying with the body or the mind as the objects of self*-realization?" *Purport: "This was a hint by Nārada to Vyāsadeva regarding the cause of his despondency. Vyāsadeva, as the descendant of Parāśara, a greatly powerful sage, had the privilege of having a great parentage, which should not have given Vyāsadeva cause for despondency. Being a great son of a great father, he should not have identified the self with the body or the mind. Ordinary men with a poor fund of knowledge can identify the body as self or the mind as self, but Vyāsadeva should not have done so. One cannot be cheerful by nature unless one is factually seated in self*-realization, which is transcendental to the material body and mind." "Your inquiries were full and your studies were also well fulfilled, and there is no doubt that you have prepared a great and wonderful work, the *Mahābhārata* , which is full of all kinds of Vedic sequences elaborately explained." Purport: "The despondency of Vyāsadeva was certainly not due to his lack of sufficient knowledge, because as a student he had fully inquired about the Vedic literatures, as a result of which the *Mahābhārata* is compiled with full explanation of the *Vedas* ." "You have fully delineated the subject of impersonal Brahman, as well as the knowledge derived therefrom. In spite of all this, why should you be despondent, thinking that you are undone, my dear prabhu ?" *Purport: "The Vedānta*-sūtra or Brahma-sūtra compiled by Śrī Vyāsadeva is the full deliberation of the impersonal absolute feature, and it is accepted as the most exalted philosophical exposition in the world. It covers the subject of eternity, and the methods are scholarly. So there cannot be any doubt about the transcendental scholarship of Vyāsadeva. So why should he lament?" *"Śrī Vyāsadeva said: All you have said about me is perfectly correct. Despite all this, I am not pacified. I therefore question you about the root cause of my dissatisfaction, for you are a man of unlimited knowledge due to your being the offspring of one, Brahmā, who is self*-born, without mundane mother and father." Purport. "In the material world everyone is engrossed with the idea of identifying the body or mind with the self. As such, all knowledge disseminated in the material world is related either with the body or with the mind, and that is the root cause of all despondencies. This is not always detected, even though one may be the greatest erudite scholar in materialistic knowledge. It is good, therefore, to approach a personality like Nārada to solve the root cause of all despondencies. Why Nārada should be approached is explained below." "My lord! Everything that is mysterious is known to you because you worship the creator and destroyer of the material world and the maintainer of the spiritual world, the original Personality of Godhead, who is transcendental to the three modes of material nature." *Purport: "A person who is cent percent engaged in the service of the Lord is the emblem of all knowledge. Such a devotee of the Lord in full perfection of devotional service is also perfect by the qualification of the Personality of Godhead. As such, the eightfold perfections of mystic power, aṣṭa*-siddhi , constitute very little of his godly opulence. A devotee like Nārada can act wonderfully by his spiritual perfection, which every individual is trying to attain. Śrīla Nārada is a cent percent perfect living being, although not equal to the Personality of Godhead." *"Like the sun, Your Goodness can travel everywhere in the three worlds, and like the air you can penetrate the internal region of everyone. As such, you are as good as the all*-pervasive Supersoul. Please, therefore, find out the deficiency in me, despite my being absorbed in transcendence under disciplinary regulations and vows." Purport: "Transcendental realization, pious activities, worshiping the Deities, charity, mercifulness, nonviolence and studying the scriptures under strict disciplinary regulations are always helpful." Text 8. "Śrī Nārada said: You have not actually broadcast the sublime and spotless glories of the Personality of Godhead. That philosophy which does not satisfy the transcendental senses of the Lord is considered worthless." *Purport: "The eternal relation of an individual soul with the Supreme Soul Personality of Godhead is constitutionally one of being the eternal servitor of the eternal master. The Lord has expanded Himself as living beings in order to accept loving service from them, and this alone can satisfy both the Lord and the living beings. A scholar like Vyāsadeva has completed many expansions of the Vedic literatures, ending with the Vedānta philosophy, but none of them have been written directly glorifying the Personality of Godhead. Dry philosophical speculations even on the transcendental subject of the Absolute have very little attraction without directly dealing with the glorification of the Lord. The Personality of Godhead is the last word in transcendental realization. The Absolute realized as impersonal Brahman or localized Supersoul, Paramātmā, is less productive of transcendental bliss than the supreme personal realization of His glories. The compiler of the Vedānta*-darśana is Vyāsadeva himself. Yet he is troubled, although he is the author. So what sort of transcendental bliss can be derived by the readers and listeners of Vedānta , which is not explained directly by Vyāsadeva the author? Herein arises the necessity of explaining Vedānta-sūtra in the form of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by the self-same author." If it hasn't been ex . . . if he has not said it, so how can they know it from Vedānta-sūtra? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pradyumna: If he has not said it, so how can they know it? "Although, great sage, you have very broadly described the four principles, beginning with religious performances, you have not described the glories of the Supreme Personality, Vāsudeva." Purport: "The prompt diagnosis of Śrī Nārada is at once declared. The root cause of the despondency of Vyāsadeva was his deliberate avoidance of glorifying the Lord in his various editions of the *Purāṇas* . He has certainly, as a matter of course, given descriptions of the glories of the Lord (Śrī Kṛṣṇa), but not as many as given to religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and salvation. These four items are by far inferior to engagement in the devotional service of the Lord. Śrī Vyāsadeva, as the authorized scholar, knew very well this difference. And still, instead of giving more importance to the better type of engagement, namely . . ." Prabhupāda: Why not go there? You can go there. Hari-śauri: In the big room? Yes. It's better. It's too crowded here. Prabhupāda: Let us go there. (break) Devotee (1): . . . trying to retire here in one year when he's through with his duties as a director of a mental hospital. Prabhupāda: Which community? Devotee (1): He plans to come here to retire in one year. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes, everyone should retire and join us. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: At least those who are above fifty years old. That is Vedic civilization. Pañcasordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet . One who is over fifty years of age, vanaṁ vrajet . So vanaṁ vrajet means completely retired from family responsibilities and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is compulsory according to Vedic civilization. Hmm. *Pradyumna: "These four items are by far inferior to engagement in the devotional service of the Lord. Śrī Vyāsadeva, as the authorized scholar, knew very well this difference, and still, instead of giving more importance to the better type of engagement, namely the devotional service of the Lord, he had more or less improperly used his valuable time, and thus he was despondent. From this it is clearly indicated that no one can be pleased substantially without being engaged in the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad*-gītā this fact is clearly mentioned. After liberation, which is the last item in the line of performing religiosity, etcetera, one is engaged in pure devotional service. This is called the stage of self-realization, or brahma-bhūta stage. After attainment of this brahma-bhūta stage one is satisfied, but satisfaction is the beginning of transcendental bliss. One should progress by attaining neutrality and equality in the relative world. In passing this stage of equanimity, one is fixed up in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. This is the instruction of the Personality of Godhead in the Bhagavad-gītā . The conclusion is that in order to maintain the status quo of the brahma-bhūta stage, as also to increase the degree of transcendental realization, it is recommended by Nārada to Vyāsadeva that he, Vyāsadeva, should now eagerly and repeatedly describe the path of devotional service. This would cure him from gross despondency." "Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows." Prabhupāda: Just like the modern newspaper. Huge bundle of newspaper every morning, huh? So it is, as it is said here, the place of enjoyment for the crows. Hmm? What is that? Pradyumna: Vāyasaṁ tīrtham . *Prabhupāda: Vāyasaṁ . Vāyasaṁ means crows. The crows, they take pleasure in a place where all rubbish and refuses are thrown. They take pleasure. So what is this newspaper? All rubbish things, they are collected together. Nobody likes it to read. They just glance over for a few minutes, and then it is thrown away, rubbish. And even it is thrown there, nobody touches it. So they are spending huge, so many newspapers. Each newspaper several editions in a day, huge establishment, but there is no substance of life. That is being described. Na yad vacaś citra*-padaṁ harer yaśo . Read it. Pradyumna: *"Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows. Since the all*-perfect persons are inhabitants of the transcendental abode, they do not derive any pleasure there." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Pradyumna: "Crows and swans are not birds of the same feather because of their different mental attitudes. The fruitive workers or passionate men are compared to the crows, whereas the all*-perfect saintly persons are compared to the swans. Crows take pleasure in a place where garbage is thrown out, just as the passionate fruitive workers take pleasure in wine and women and places for gross sense pleasure. The swans do not take pleasure in the places where crows are assembled for conferences and meetings. They are instead seen in the atmosphere of natural scenic beauty, where there are transparent reservoirs of water nicely decorated with stems of lotus flowers in variegated colors of natural beauty. That is the difference between the two classes of birds. "Nature has influenced different species of life with different mentalities, and it is not possible to bring them up into the same rank and file. Similarly, there are different kinds of literature for different types of men of different mentality. Mostly the market literatures which attract men of the crow's categories are literatures containing refuse remnants of sensuous topics. They are generally known as mundane talks in relation with the gross body and subtle mind. They are full of subject matter described in decorative language full of mundane similies and metaphorical arrangements. Yet with all that, they do not glorify the Lord. Such poetry and prose on any subject matter is considered decoration of a dead body. Spiritually advanced men, who are compared with the swans, do not take pleasure in such dead literatures, which are sources of pleasure for men who are spiritually dead. These literatures in the modes of passion and ignorance are distributed under different labels, but they can hardly help the spiritual urge of the human being, and thus the swanlike spiritually advanced men have nothing to do with them. "Such spiritually advanced men are called also mānasa , because they always keep up the standard of transcendental voluntary service to the Lord on the spiritual plane. This completely forbids fruitive activities for gross bodily sense satisfaction or subtle speculation of the material egoistic mind. Social literary men, scientists, mundane poets, theoretical philosophers and politicians who are completely absorbed in the material advancement of sense pleasure are all dolls of the material energy. They take pleasure in a place where rejected subject matters are thrown. According to Śrīdhara Swami, this is the pleasure of the prostitute hunters. But literatures which describe the glories of the Lord are enjoyed by the paramahaṁsas who have grasped the essence of human activities." When you said that transcendentally spiritually advanced men are called mānasa , that means "with the mind," because they are always thinking of? Prabhupāda: Yes, always. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa padāravindayoḥ (SB 9.4.18). They are thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Pradyumna: "On the other hand, that literature which is full of pastimes of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etcetera, of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest." *Purport: "It is a qualification of the great thinkers to pick up the best even from the worst. It is said that the intelligent man should pick up nectar from a stock of poison, should accept gold even from a filthy place, should accept a good and qualified wife even from an obscure family, and should accept a good lesson even from a man or from a teacher who comes from the untouchables. These are some of the ethical instructions for everyone in every place without exception. But a saint is far above the level of an ordinary man, and he is always absorbed in glorifying the Supreme Lord, because by broadcasting the holy name and fame of the Supreme Lord the polluted atmosphere of the world will change, and as a result of propagating the transcendental literatures like Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , people will become sane in their transactions. *"While preparing this commentation on this particular stanza of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam we have a crisis before us. Our neighboring friend China has attacked the border of India with a militaristic spirit. We have practically no business in the political field, yet we see that previously there were both China and India, and they both lived peacefully for centuries without ill feeling. The reason is that they lived those days in an atmosphere of God consciousness, and every country over the surface of the world was God-fearing, pure-hearted and simple, and there was no question of political diplomacy. There was no cause of quarrel between the two countries of China and India over land which is not very suitable for habitation, and certainly there was no cause for fighting on this issue. But due to the age of quarrel, Kali, which we have discussed, there is always a chance of quarrel on slight provocation. This is due not to the issue in question but to the polluted atmosphere of this age. Systematically there is propaganda by a section of people to stop glorification of the name and fame of the Supreme Lord. Therefore there is great need for disseminating the message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam all over the world. It is the duty of every responsible Indian to broadcast the transcendental message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam throughout the world to do all the supermost good, as well as to bring about the desired peace in the world. Because India has failed in her duty by neglecting this responsible work, there is so much quarrel and trouble all over the world. We are confident that if the transcendental message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is received only by the leading men of the world, certainly there will be a change of heart, and naturally the people in general will follow them. The mass of people in general are tools in the hands of modern politicians and leaders of the people. If there is a change of heart of the leaders only, certainly there will be a radical change in the atmosphere of the world. We know that our honest attempt to present this great literature conveying transcendental messages for reviving the God consciousness of the people in general and respiritualizing the world atmosphere is fraught with many difficulties. Our presenting this matter in adequate language, especially a foreign language, will certainly fail, and there will be so many literary discrepancies despite our honest attempt to present it in the proper way. But we are sure that with all our faults in this connection, the seriousness of the subject matter will be taken into consideration, and the leaders of society will still accept this, due to its being an honest attempt to glorify the almighty God. When there is fire in a house, the inmates of the house go out to get help from the neighbors, who may be foreigners, and yet without knowing the language, the victims of the fire express themselves and the neighbors understand the need, even though not expressed in the same language. The same spirit of cooperation is needed to broadcast this transcendental message of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam throughout the polluted atmosphere of the world. After all, it is a technical science of spiritual values, and thus we are concerned with the techniques and not with the language. If the techniques of this great literature are understood by the people of the world, there will be success. *"When there are too many materialistic activities by the people in general all over the world, there is no wonder that a person or nation attacks another person or nation on slight provocation. That is the rule of this age of Kali, or quarrel. The atmosphere is already polluted with corruption of all description, and everyone knows it well. There are so many unwanted literatures full of materialistic ideas of sense gratification. The people in general want to read. That is a natural instinct. But because their minds are polluted, they want such literatures. Under the circumstances, transcendental literature like Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam will not only diminish the activities of the corrupt minds of the people in general, but also it will supply food for their hankering after reading some interesting literature. In the beginning they may not like it, because one suffering from jaundice is reluctant to take sugar candy, but we should know that sugar candy is the only remedy for the jaundice. Similarly, let there be systematic propaganda for popularizing reading of the Bhagavad-gītā and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which will act like sugar candy for the jaundicelike condition of sense gratification. When men have a taste for this literature, the other literatures, which are catering poison to society, will then automatically cease. We are sure therefore that everyone in the human society will welcome Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , even though it is now presented with so many faults, for it is recommended by Śrī Nārada, who has very kindly appeared in this chapter." Prabhupāda: So what other literatures say? There is not one. In our Society we do not read even newspaper, is it not? Do we? Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only in context to our preaching work. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But generally . . . we do not derive any benefit from those. People read it, especially in the Western county. If there is no newspaper it is hell. I told you this story? Yes. You can repeat that. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The preacher was preaching to the coal miners that if they were not good, they would go to hell, and in hell it was very cold. So they were thinking, "So it is very cold in the mine." Then he was saying that it is very dark in hell. "But it is very dark in the mine." Then he said, "And there are no newspapers." "Oh, how horrible! What a horrible place that must be." Prabhupāda: When they heard in the hell there is no newspaper, then came to the idea, "Oh, it is horrible." Otherwise, cold, dark, "Oh, this is our custom. We are already accustomed to these habits, we are working in the mine. So don't make any distinction between hell and our present residential quarters. But if there is no newspaper, certainly that is hell." Pradyumna: *"Knowledge of self*-realization, even though freed from all material affinity, does not look well if devoid of a conception of the infallible God. What then is the use of fruitive activities, which are naturally painful from the very beginning and transient by nature, if they are not utilized for the devotional service of the Lord?" *Purport: "As referred to above, not only ordinary literatures devoid of the transcendental glorification of the Lord are condemned, but also Vedic literatures and speculation on the subject of impersonal Brahman when they are devoid of devotional service. When speculation on the impersonal Brahman is condemned on the above ground, then what to speak of ordinary fruitive work, which is not meant to fulfill the aim of devotional service. Such speculative knowledge and fruitive work cannot lead one to the goal of perfection. Fruitive work, in which almost all people in general are engaged, is always painful, either in the beginning or at the end. It can only be fruitful when made subservient to the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad*-gītā also it is confirmed that the result of such fruitive work may be offered for the service of the Lord, otherwise it leads to material bondage. The bona fide enjoyer of the fruitive work is the Personality of Godhead. And thus when it is engaged for the sense gratification of the living entities, it becomes an acute source of trouble." "O Vyāsadeva, your vision is completely perfect. Your good fame is spotless, you are firm in vow and situated in truthfulness, and thus you can think of the pastimes of the Lord in trance for the liberation of the people in general from all material bondage." Purport: "People in general have a taste for literature by instinct. They want to hear and read from the authorities something about the unknown, but their taste is exploited by unfortunate literatures, which are full of subject matter for satisfaction of the material senses. Such literatures contain different kinds of mundane poems and philosophical speculations more or less under the influence of māyā , ending in sense gratification. These literatures, although worthless in the true sense of the term, are variously decorated to attract the attention of the less intelligent men. Thus the attracted living entities are more and more entangled in material bondage without hope of liberation for thousands and thousands of generations. "Śrī Nārada Ṛṣi, being the best among the Vaiṣṇavas, is compassionate on such unfortunate victims of worthless literatures, and thus he advises Śrī Vyāsadeva to compose transcendental literature which is not only attractive but can also actually bring liberation from all kinds of bondage. Śrīla Vyāsadeva or his representatives are qualified because they are rightly trained to see things in true perspective. Śrīla Vyāsadeva and his representatives are pure in thought due to their spiritual enlightenment; fixed in their vows, due to their devotional service; *and determined to deliver the fallen souls rotting in material activities. The fallen souls are very eager to receive novel informations every day, and the transcendentalists like Vyāsadeva or Nārada can supply such eager people in general with unlimited news from the spiritual world. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that the material world is only a part of the whole creation, and that this earth is only a fragment of the whole material world. *"There are thousands and thousands of literary men all over the world, and they have created many, many thousands of literary works for the information of the people in general for thousands and thousands of years. Unfortunately . . . (break) . . . effect of liberation from the pangs of material civilization, which is eating the vital parts of the human energy. The Bhagavad*-gītā , which is the spoken message of the Lord Himself recorded by Vyāsadeva, and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which is the transcendental narration of the activities of the same Lord Kṛṣṇa, which alone can satisfy the hankering desires of the living being for eternal peace and liberation from miseries. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is, therefore, meant for all the living beings all over the universe for total liberation from all kinds of material bondage. Such transcendental narrations of the pastimes of the Lord can only be described by liberated souls like Vyāsadeva and his bona fide representatives, who are completely merged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. Only to such devotees do the pastimes of the Lord and their transcendental nature become automatically manifest by dint of devotional service. No one else can either know or describe the acts of the Lord, even if they speculate on the subject for many, many years. The descriptions of the Bhāgavatam are so precise and accurate that whatever has been predicted in this great literature about five thousand years before is now exactly happening. Therefore the vision of the author comprehends past, present and future. Such liberated persons like Vyāsadeva are not only perfect by the power of vision and wisdom but also in aural reception, in thinking, feeling and all other sense activities. A liberated person possesses perfect senses, and with perfect senses only can one serve the sense proprietor, Hṛṣīkeśa, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is therefore the perfect description of the all-perfect Personality of Godhead by the all-perfect personality, Śrī Vyāsadeva, the compiler of the Vedas ." Hari-śauri: Bring that chair forward. Prabhupāda: No, that's . . . (indistinct) Pradyumna: "Whatever you desire to describe which is separate in vision from the Lord simply reacts with different forms, names and results to agitate the mind, as the wind agitates a boat which has no resting place." *Purport: "Śrī Vyāsadeva is the editor of all descriptions of the Vedic literatures, and thus he has described transcendental realization in different ways, namely by fruitive activities, speculative knowledge, mystic power and devotional service. Besides that, in his various Purāṇas he has recommended the worship of so many demigods in different forms and names. The result is that people in general are puzzled how to fix up their minds in the service of the Lord. They are always disturbed to find out the real path of self*-realization. Śrīla Nāradadeva is stressing this particular defect in the Vedic literatures compiled by Vyāsadeva, and thus he is trying to emphasize describing everything in relation with the Supreme Lord and no one else. In fact there is nothing existent except the Lord. The Lord is manifested in different expansions. He is the root of the complete tree. He is the stomach of the complete body. As such, pouring water on the root is the right process to water the tree, as much as feeding the stomach supplies energy to all parts of the body. *"Śrīla Vyāsadeva should not have compiled any Purāṇas other than the Bhāgavata Purāṇa , because a slight deviation from that may create havoc for self*-realization. If a slight deviation can create such havoc, then what to speak of deliberate expansion of the separatist idea from the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead? The most defective part of worshiping demigods is that it creates a definite conception of pantheism, ending disastrously in many religious sects detrimental to the progress of the principles of the Bhāgavatam , which alone can give the accurate direction for self-realization in eternal relation with the Personality of Godhead by devotional service in transcendental love. The example of the boat disturbed by whirling wind is suitable in this respect. The diverted mind of the pantheist can never reach to the perfection of self-realization, due to the disturbed condition of the selections of object." "The people in general are naturally inclined to enjoy, and you have encouraged them in that way in the name of religion. This is verily condemned and is quite unreasonable. Because they are guided under your instructions, they will accept such activities in the name of religion and will hardly care for prohibitions." *Purport: "Śrīla Vyāsadeva's compilation of various Vedic literatures on the basis of regulated performances of fruitive activities as depicted in the Mahābhārata and other literature is condemned herewith by Śrīla Nārada. The human beings, by long material association life after life, have a natural inclination by practice to endeavor to lord it over material energy. They have no sense of the responsibility of human life. This human form of life is a chance to get out of the clutches of illusory matter. The Vedas are meant for going back to Godhead, going back home. To revolve in the cycle of transmigration in a series of lives numbering 8,400,000 is an imprisoned life for the condemned conditioned souls. The human form of life is a chance to get out of this imprisoned life, and as such the only occupation of the human being is to reestablish his lost relationship with God. Under the circumstances, one should never be encouraged in making a plan for sense enjoyment in the name of religious functions. Such diversion of the human energy results in a misguided civilization. Śrīla Vyāsadeva is the authority in Vedic explanations and the Mahābhārata , etcetera, and his encouragement in sense enjoyment in some form or other is a great barrier for spiritual advancement, because the people in general will not agree to renounce material activities, which hold them in material bondage. At a certain stage of human civilization such material activities in the name of religion, as sacrificing animals in the name of yajña , were too much rampant. The Lord incarnated Himself as Buddha and decried the authority of the Vedas to stop animal sacrifice in the name of religion. This was foreseen by Nārada, and therefore he condemned such literatures. The flesh*-eaters still continue to perform animal sacrifice before some demigod or goddess in the name of religion, because in some of the Vedic literatures such regulated sacrifice is recommended. They are so recommended to discourage flesh eating, but gradually the purpose of such religious activities is forgotten and the slaughterhouse becomes prominent. This is because foolish materialistic men do not care to listen to others who are actually in a position to explain the Vedic rites. *"In the Vedas it is distinctly said that the perfection of life is never to be attained either by voluminous work or by accumulation of wealth or even by increasing the number of population, but it is so attained only by renunciation. The materialistic men do not care to listen to such injunctions. According to them, the so*-called renounced order of life is meant for those who are unable to earn their livelihood because of some corporeal defects or for persons who have failed to achieve prosperity in family life. In histories like the Mahābhārata , of course, there are topics on transcendental subjects along with material topics. The Bhagavad-gītā is there in the Mahābhārata . The whole idea of the Mahābhārata is culminated in the ultimate instructions of the Bhagavad-gītā , that one should relinquish all other engagements and should engage oneself solely and fully in surrendering unto the lotus feet of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. But men with materialistic tendencies are more attracted to politics, economics and philanthropic activities mentioned in the Mahābhārata than to the principal topic, namely the Bhagavad-gītā . This compromising spirit of Vyāsadeva is directly condemned by Nārada, who advises him to directly proclaim that the prime necessity of human life is to realize one's eternal relation with the Lord and thus surrender unto Him without delay. A patient suffering from a particular type of malady is almost always inclined to accept eatables which are forbidden for him. The expert physician does not make any compromise with the patient by allowing him to take partially what he should not take at all. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said that a man attached to fruitive work should not be discouraged from his occupation, for gradually he may be elevated to the position of self-realization. This is sometimes applicable for those who are only dry empiric philosophers without spiritual realization, but those who are in the devotional line need not be always so advised." "The Supreme Lord is unlimited. Only a very expert personality retired from the activities of material happiness deserves to understand this knowledge of spiritual values. Therefore those who are not so well situated due to material attachment should be shown the ways of transcendental realization by Your Goodness through descriptions of the transcendental activities of the Supreme Lord." *Purport: "Theological science is a difficult subject, especially when it deals with the transcendental nature of God. It is not a subject matter to be understood by persons who are too much attached to material activities. Only the very expert, who have almost retired from materialistic activities, by culture of spiritual knowledge can be admitted to the study of this great science. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is clearly stated that out of many hundreds and thousands of men, only one person deserves to enter into transcendental realization, and out of many thousands of such transcendentally realized persons, only a few can understand the theological science specifically dealing with God as a person. Śrī Vyāsadeva is therefore advised by Nārada to describe the science of God directly by relating His transcendental activities. Vyāsadeva is himself a personality expert in this science, and he is unattached to material enjoyment; therefore he is the right person to describe it. And Sukadeva Gosvāmī, the son of Vyāsadeva, is the right person to receive it. *" Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, and therefore it can react on the layman as medicinal doses. Because it contains the transcendental activities of the Lord, there is no difference between the Lord and the literature. The literature is the factual literary incarnation of the Lord so the laymen can hear the narration of the activities of the Lord. Thereby they are able to associate with the Lord and thus gradually become purified from material diseases. The expert devotees also can discover novel ways and means to convert the nondevotee in terms of particular time and circumstance. Devotional service is dynamic activities, and the expert devotees can find out competent means to inject it into the dull brains of the materialistic population. Such transcendental activities of the devotees for the service of the Lord can bring a new order of life to the foolish society of materialistic men. Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His subsequent followers exhibited expert dexterity in this connection. By following the same method one can bring the materialistic men of this age of quarrel into order for peaceful life and transcendental realization." Prabhupāda: What is the time now? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: About 7:20, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Should we take your leave? Prabhupāda: Any question regarding this? *Pradyumna: Says " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, therefore it can react on the layman as medicinal doses"? Prabhupāda: If they simply hear, it will act as medicine. *Devotee (1): Vyāsadeva is called tri*-kala-jñā —he sees past, present and future. How is it that he sees the future, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (indistinct—microphone rattling) Just like common business. Bring that black Bhāgavata . Five thousand years before *Bhāgavatam* was written, and so many foretelling are there, and they are arguing (microphone rattling—indistinct). If you like, you can keep it open. (referring to door) Devotee (2): I was looking just now to see if my wife had . . . (indistinct) . . . can come in . . . (indistinct) . . . thought to open the door. Prabhupāda: Twelfth Canto, Third Chapter. *Pradyumna: Tataś cānu*-dinaṁ dharmaḥ ? Prabhupāda: Hmm, before that. Pradyumna: That is first chapter. *Prabhupāda: Read it, tataś cānu*-dinam , it is third chapter. Pradyumna: This is second. Prabhupāda: First chapter, by the end, what it is written? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: (microphone rattling—indistinct) What is the last verse you read? Pradyumna: Yes, this is the last verse. It says everyone is rājabhiś ca kṣayaṁ yāsyanti pīḍitāḥ . Prabhupāda: What is the note? *Pradyumna: (Śrīdhara Svāmī's commentary) kiṁ ca , tan nāthas te nātha yeṣaṁ te jana*-pada deśa-vartino manuṣyas tac-chīlācārādinas teṣam iva śrīlamācāro . . . *Prabhupāda: The purport is that in the Kali*-yuga, the government men, they will be all rogues and thieves. So the citizens also follow them. Tan-natha , śīlācārya . Śīlācārya is their behavior. If the politicians, secretaries and big, big officers going to the brothels and drinking wine and enjoying, then what others will not? They will . . . (indistinct) . . . that's all. Go on, second chapter. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Note? *Pradyumna: Says that, er, kali*-dharmān prapañcayati-tataś cetyādinā . Prabhupāda: That's all? Pradyumna: Yes. He doesn't say. *Prabhupāda: How things will deteriorate, that is explained here. Tataś cānu*-dinam ? Pradyumna: Dharmaḥ satyaṁ śaucam . . . *Prabhupāda: With the progress of the Kali*-yuga . . . the Kali-yuga has begun from the . . . after the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra. So five thousand years ago. The whole duration of life of Kali-yuga is thirty-two hundred thousands of years. Thirty-two hundred thousands of years, out of which we have passed only five thousand years. Still, the balance is twenty-seven hundred thousands of years. So with the progress of this age, these things will happen. What is that? Tataś cānu-dinam ? Pradyumna: Dharmaḥ satyam . Prabhupāda: Dharmaḥ . People will gradually decrease in their sense of religiosity, dharmaḥ . Then? Pradyumna: Satyam . *Prabhupāda: They will be untruthful, hardly, because there is no training of brahminical culture how to become truthful. People think that "What is the wrong there, I shall speak something untruth?" So that means the value of truthfulness will decrease. And the importance of religion will decrease. This is the symptoms of Kali*-yuga. Then? Pradyumna: Śaucam . Prabhupāda: Śaucam , cleanliness. People will become unclean more and more. Then? Pradyumna: Kṣamā . Prabhupāda: Kṣamā . Formerly saintly persons and leaders, they used to excuse. Now that, the sense of excusing, "All right, this man has done something, excuse him," that will decrease. The sense of religiosity, truthfulness, and . . .? Pradyumna: Truthfulness, cleanliness, śaucam . Prabhupāda: Cleanliness. Pradyumna: Kṣamā . Prabhupāda: And kṣamā , kṣamā means pardon. Then? Pradyumna: Dayā . Prabhupāda: Dayā , mercifulness. People will have no mercy. It has already begun. If somebody is attacked, being killed, nobody takes care; he goes in his own way. There is no mercy. There is no mercy to the animals. Now there is no mercy even to one's child; *one's own child, they are killing. Just see how degraded, dayā . What to speak of no dayā , no mercy for the animals—all right, you are not so advanced—but the mother's mercy to the child will be diminished. This is foretelling. This is called tri*-kala-jñā . Who expected that mother will kill the child? But Vyāsadeva, five thousand years ago, said, "Yes, mercy will be reduced." Then? Pradyumna: Āyur . *Prabhupāda: Āyur , duration of life. The maximum duration of life in Kali*-yuga is hundred years, but who is living hundred years? It is being reduced, and it will be so reduced that if a man would live twenty years, he is an old man. It will come to that stage. Now it is reducing, from hundred years to ninety years to eighty years. *Hari-śauri: The average is seventy*-three years now. Prabhupāda: Seventy, then sixty then fifty. In this way, if a man lives from twenty to thirty years he will be considered grand old man. (laughter) These are the symptoms, āyur . Then? Pradyumna: Balam . Prabhupāda: And bodily strength. Bodily strength . . . in India we, in our childhood, I have seen when British rule was there, all the Europeans were coming, very strong and stout and strong. Now such Europeans are not coming. Even bodily strength reduced. Then? Pradyumna: Smṛtiḥ . *Prabhupāda: And memory. It will reduce. Just see, compare everything—religiosity and the power of mercifulness, pardoning, truthfulness, cleanliness, bodily strength, duration of life—they're all reduced. Now who can say it is not reduced? Can you say? This is called tri*-kala-jñā . Tatas , what is that? Cānu-dinaṁ rājan ? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Kālena , in due course of time, all these items—there are eight items—it will be reducing, reducing, reducing. Reducing, reducing so much. So what is that? Devotee (3): They say that men are living longer now compared to five hundred or six hundred years ago. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (3): They say that men are living longer now. The scientists, they say that there's less disease. They say that a hundred years ago people had more disease than . . . now they live longer. *Prabhupāda: That these rascals say. We do not say. We have seen in our childhood that my grandmother, she died at the age of ninety*-six years. There was no disease. The scientists say that there was disease, now there is no disease? Devotee (3): They say there is less disease now. They say that . . . Prabhupāda: Less disease—everyone suffering from cancer. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They are building more hospitals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Not less. Prabhupāda: Just see. They're increasing number of hospitals, and there is no disease? Devotee (3): They say that a child has more of a chance of living now than . . . Prabhupāda: "They say," but what is the practical? They say all, as I repeatedly, pagale ki na bole chakole ki na khaya . A madman, what does he not say, and a goat, what does he not eat? So they are all madmen. (laughter) They can say all everything. Devotee (1): They are experimenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with genes now. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (1): You say that we are losing the qualities of memory, strength, but they are experimenting where they can isolate genes of persons who have those qualities and then put on . . . Prabhupāda: But we have to see actually what is happening. Devotee (4): They are also transplanting livers and hearts, increasing the duration of life. Prabhupāda: So whatever they may do, things will happen like this. This is a fact. Can they increase the duration of life? People, can they make any scientific discovery that no man will die less than hundred years? Is there any such discovery? Hari-śauri: The only discoveries they have made so far are how to kill people quicker. Prabhupāda: Yes. Is there any discovery that here is a pill, you go on taking it, you'll not die before hundred years? Is there any discovery? Then what is the use of talking nonsense? They are reducing their life, that's a fact. And so far as mercy is concerned, we see how much it is reduced. The mother is killing child. Where is mercy now? So they may say anything like madman, but we see practically what is happening. Then? Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: So vittam , money. Money is the criterion, not family. Formerly, there was family, respectable family, aristocratic family, brāhmaṇa family, kṣatriya family. All these things are gone now. If you accumulate some money some way or other, then you are respectable, never mind what you are. That is Kali*-yuga symptom: their position in society, if you want to be respectable man, you somehow or other gather money. Never mind how we have gathered, what is the method. It doesn't matter. Get some money and you become respectable. Vittam eva hi . *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . Prabhupāda: Ah, janmācāra . First of all, janma , the family, heredity, was taken into consideration, but that is now forgotten. Get money. Just like in England that the British Empire policy was that you bring money from outside and deposit in the government treasury and you become lord. Is it not? Bring money, some way or other. So that was going on, exploiting. They used to go to the foreign countries and somehow or other accumulate money. Just like Lord Clive. He was a street boy, but he made some policy. In this way, diplomacy, he entered into Bengal and got some money, and Lord Clive, he became Lord Clive. So money is the criterion. Some way or other, bring money, that's all. That's a fact. These are the symptoms. Just try to understand. *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . Prabhupāda: If you have money, then you are aristocratic; then whatever you do, it is all right. Janmācāra , then? Pradyumna: Guṇa . Prabhupāda: Guṇa . You are most qualified man. You may be a drunkard, you may be a prostitute hunter, whatever you may be, but because you have money you are a qualified man. Then? *Pradyumna: Janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . Prabhupāda: Go on. *Pradyumna: Dharma*-nyāya-vyavasthāyāṁ kāraṇaṁ balam eva hi . *Prabhupāda: Dharma*-nyāya . Now, if you want justice, you can get it according to your desire, justice, if you have got money. That is going on, that if you bribe to the court's men and even to the judge or magistrate, you get justice accordingly. That is going on. Dharma ācāra . Then? Pradyumna: Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dāmpatye ? Pradyumna: Dāmpatye abhirucir , hetur . . . *Prabhupāda: Abhirucir , yes. Now formerly marriage was a religious ceremony. Marriage was, this boy and this girl should be married, it is a religious function where the father and mother will see their horoscope and see if they are compatible, they will agree, they will live peacefully. So many things are there. Still, in India such things are calculated by the parents of the boy and the girl. Now, in this Kali*-yuga, you see, dāmpatye abhirucir . Abhirucir means the boy and the girl, if he likes, if he says, that's all. No other calculation. And then, after three days after marriage, they will divorce. (laughter) Because abhirucir , abhirucir : "I like, I don't like," that's all. Now I like, and after three days don't like, finished, business. In Chicago I saw a newspaper. One girl, within three weeks she has divorced two husbands. (laughter) Yes, I saw it in the newspaper. So this . . . formerly the father, mother used to see that this boy and girl is going to be married. So by horoscope, by other circumstances, by family, cultural . . . (indistinct) . . . by education, so many things, whether they will live peacefully. That was the understanding. Husband-wife means, a man requires a woman, a woman requires a man. They should be combined in such a way that they can live peacefully. If there is no disturbance of the mind, then they can make further progress in spiritual life. Therefore marriage is also necessary, and that must be properly done. This was the . . . now there is no such consideration. The boys and girls are free, and if one likes the other . . . dāmpatye . . . what is that? Pradyumna: Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Ruci . Ruci means liking. Then? Pradyumna: I think it is māyaiva vyāvahārike . *Prabhupāda: Ah, māyaiva vyāvahārike . In ordinary dealings there is cheating. This is Kali*-yuga. Ordinarily, even when gentleman-gentleman, so-called gentlemen talking, he's trying to cheat him, he's trying to cheat him. By talking. And ordinarily. Māyaiva vyāvahārike . To talk with gentleman-gentleman, it is ordinary thing, but still there will be so many untruthfulness. Māyaiva vyāvahārike . Then? Pradyumna: Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir vipratve sūtram eva hi . Prabhupāda: Hmm. And woman is nice, man is nice, this should be considered by sex power. Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir . Then? Pradyumna: Vipratve sūtram eva hi . Prabhupāda: Vipratve sūtram eva hi . And there is a brāhmaṇa —what is the proof that he is a brāhmaṇa ? He has got a sacred thread, that's all. Or thread. It may not be sacred; *purchased from the market. So at least we try to give a sacred thread by ceremony. But anyone can purchase a thread from the market, two*-paisa worth or one-cent worth, and become a brāhmaṇa . "You are a brāhmaṇa ?" "Yes, you see my sacred thread?" (laughter) Finished. "What you are doing?" "Never mind." Don't be such brāhmaṇas , at least in our camp. You must follow the rules and regulations. Don't show that "I am now doubly initiated, sacred thread." Don't cheat in that way. Vipratve sūtram eva hi . Then? *Pradyumna: Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv . *Prabhupāda: Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv . There are āśramas—brahmacārī , sannyāsī , gṛhastha . So they have got different dresses. So Kali-yuga, simply by dress he becomes a brahmacārī , he become a gṛhastha , he becomes a sannyāsī . Simply by dress. What he is acting, nobody cares, that's all. Then? Pradyumna: Liṅgam , eva . Prabhupāda: Liṅgam means the external feature. This is the dress of a sannyāsī , this is the dress of a gṛhastha . Just like daṇḍa . Daṇḍa is the symptom that he is a sannyāsī . Then? *Pradyumna: Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv anyonyāpatti-kāraṇam . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then? *Pradyumna: Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . *Prabhupāda: Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . If you have no money, then you cannot get justice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cannot get . . .? *Prabhupāda: Justice. First of all you have to pay government so many percentage of money. Suppose somebody owes to you some money and he's not giving you. So if you want to go to the court, first of all you have to spend so much money. And if you have no money, then you cannot get your justice, money back. You have to pay this lawyer's fee, the stand duty, and so on, so on. But if you say, "I have no money," then forget justice. That's all. Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam . Pradyumna: Pāṇḍitye cāpalaṁ vacaḥ . Prabhupāda: Paṇḍita: if you can speak very vehemently any subject matter, people may or may not understand, and they will certify you, "Oh, this man is very learned." "What you have learned from him?" "Oh, I could not understand, but he spoke very nicely. He spoke very nicely." What is that nicely? That cāpala . (Prabhupāda speaks some gibberish) You go on speaking like that, (devotees laugh) and people will appreciate, "Oh, he's a big speaker!" What have you learned from him? Then? Pradyumna: Then anadhyataivasādhutve sādhutve dambha eva tu . Prabhupāda: And if you are poor man, then you are not honest. That is the criterion. "Oh, here is a . . ." When the poor man comes, you'll not give place at your place. If he wants to stay, you'll refuse: "No." Because he's poor, he's immediately accepted as dishonest. He may be honest or dishonest, but poverty is a sign for accepting a man as dishonest. Then? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hmm. Svīkāra eva codvāhe . Marriage will go on simply by agreement, not by qualification. Svīkāra eva codvāhe . Snānam eva prasādhanam . And if you take bath, then all bodily cleanliness is finished, that's all. Then? *Pradyumna: Dūre vāry*-ay . . . *Prabhupāda: Vāry*-ayanam . Pradyumna: Oh. Dūre . . . *Prabhupāda: Dūre vāry*-ayanaṁ tīrtham . Tīrtham . If you go . . . Just like there is Vṛndāvana and here is New Vrindavan. But if you spend ten thousand dollars and go to Vṛndāvana, then it is pilgrimage. And here is Vṛndāvana-candra—so that is not very important. Dūre vāry-ayanam . You have to go far, far away, (laughter) then it will be pilgrimage. In India, there is Ganges in Calcutta. But they go to Hardwar. Then it is pilgrimage. (laughter) The same Ganges, coming from Hardwar. Then? *Pradyumna: Dūre vāry*-ayanaṁ tīrthaṁ lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam . *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lāvaṇyam , now you know very well in the Western country. Beauty increases by having long hair. (laughter) I was just trying to recite this verse only, and now see how it is current. Who expected that this foretelling is there in the Bhāgavatam ? To increase beauty, have long hair. Is it not? Now just see. How five thousand years this thing was foretold? That is the proof. There was no hippie movement then. (laughs) But Vyāsadeva foretold that in the Kali*-yuga, if one keeps long hair he will think himself as very beautiful. There are so many things. *So ultimately, with the advancement of Kali*-yuga you'll have no food. Food means there will be no food grains, there will be no milk, there will be no sugar—like that. No fruits. If you get fruits, there will be no pulp; it is simply seeds. These things are there. You get a mango, but a mango means simply the big seed, that's all. So how can you check it? If nature's way things are going to happen like that, what the scientists will do? If there is no rice, no wheat, will the scientists . . .? They can say replace with a pill, but they cannot produce wheat or rice or ḍāl or milk, sugar. That is not possible. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? They have fashioned a way for the spacemen that they can drink their own urine and eat their own stool. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the most scientific improvement. (laughter) Yes. That they can do. (laughter) By scientific improvement, they can drink their own urine, very tasty. That is possible. Devotee (1): With all these disqualifications, how can the general mass of people take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only remedy. That is stated there. You'll find this verse, *It is, the Kali*-yuga, it is an ocean of faults. How . . .? Suppose all over your body there are boils. So where you will apply ointment? You just dip down. (laughter) (end) Conversation A -- June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . the pilot for 747, paying him a large sum of money. And here is airplane, everything complete with a pilot. Create by your scientific brain. Rascal, you are so proud of your scientific . . . Hari-śauri: In Māyāpur, you said that the mosquito's body is so perfect that although with one slap it's finished, still it has a syringe so strong that it immediately, upon landing on the skin, it can penetrate and extract blood. *Prabhupāda: Immediately, just see. And if you allow one second, he'll fill the whole body up by sucking the . . . just see what is that nozzle, and how quickly they can . . . there is no intelligence? The mosquito has better intelligence than any human being about his business. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said, sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām ( SB 7.6.3). That particular body, he is destined to enjoy a certain amount of sense gratification according to his body. Like that. Sarvatra labhyate daivād . God's arrangement is nice. He can get it. The mosquito is getting. He wanted to suck blood, so he has been given a teeny body, he can suck blood, very little quantity. So arrangement is there. He's satisfying his senses, daivād , by arrangement of God. So why you are endeavoring? Even it is there in the mosquito, even it is there in the tiger or any animal or man, it is already arranged. Why you are wasting time in that way? Simply sense gratification. Who will understand this philosophy? The fact is explained. That gentleman, Subramanian, is very much appreciative. Hari-śauri: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Those who are sane men, they are appreciating that here is a movement actually for the benefit . . . it is not sentimental, cheating, bluffing, economic development. Do economic development. Why you forget your real business? Tat*-prayāso na kartavyo yena āyur . . . what is that? Vyayaḥ param , simply wasting the valuable time of our life. If you want to suck blood, just become a mosquito. (laughs) Pray to God: "Give me the body of a mosquito." Quickly you will get. Yānti deva-vratā devān , bhūtejyaḥ yānti bhūtāni (BG 9.25). You'll get it. Pradyumna: Kīrtanānanda is here with the car. (microphone rattling) (outside) *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simply expand this idea. Kṛṣī*-go-rakṣya-vāṇījyam (BG 18.44). (end) Conversation -- June 27, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA (Garden Conversation) Prabhupāda: So, any question from the newcomers? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This gentleman, he owns this house, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He mentions that he met you way back in 1966, in Tompkins Square Park. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) (break) Prabhupāda: If you go somewhere, you must know first of all why you have gone there. That is the first question. If you go to a store, the first business is that you have gone to purchase some particular thing from the store. That is understood. Similarly, why one should go to a spiritual master? What is the purpose? Answer, any one of you. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One is . . . when one is confused and frustrated by this material existence, he wants to find an answer to his problems. So there are different authorities in the world offering solutions, but one has to find the actual authority. Prabhupāda: That is the purport. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsu śreya uttamam ( SB 11.3.21). One has to go to guru when one is inquisitive. Jijñāsu . Jijñāsu means we want to know so many things; that is our nature. Child also wants to know. He asks his parents, "What is this, father? What is this, mother?" That inquisitiveness is there in everyone. So when one wants to know about the Supreme, then he requires a guru , or spiritual master. It is not a fashion, that "Everyone keeps a guru; *let me also have a guru ." Not like that. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12): "In order to understand the transcendental science, one has to go to guru ." Jijñāsu śreya uttamam . After artha . . . just like generally, naturally, one goes to temple, church, four classes of men. One is needy: "O God, give us our daily bread." One thinks . . . actually, that is the fact. God gives us bread. So traditionally we are trained up. So we go to God, "Give us our daily bread." Similarly, one who wants to know what is God. Just like in our society, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they see that these boys, young boys, they have given up everything, they are after Kṛṣṇa. What is this Kṛṣṇa? That is intelligent. Why they are after this Kṛṣṇa? Then he has to go to a person, guru . In this way, there are many circumstances. But the real purpose is to know the Supreme. One who is inquisitive or anxious to know about the Supreme, then there is necessity of guru . Otherwise, what is the use of it? One who is not inquisitive to understand the Supreme, he has no business for a guru . *But everyone has necessity to understand the Supreme. That is human life. A dog cannot inquire what is God, because he is dog. But a man can do that. He has got that developed intelligence. So if a man does not inquire about the Supreme Truth, he is no better than a dog. If one does not seek after spiritual master, he's a dog. He's in the standard of dog. Because that inquiry is the particular business of human being, to inquire about the Supreme. If he does not inquire, that still he's on the platform of dog. First of all, you have understood it or not? So any human being with developed intelligence must go to a spiritual master. If he does not go, then he's still in the animal platform. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means he must. If he does not, then he is in the animal platform. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? So if one is looking for a guru , but there are many people they are proclaiming themselves guru , and they are speaking "Supreme," "God," how may one tell the actual guru ? Prabhupāda: That is, if you want to purchase something, you must know where to purchase. Otherwise, you may be cheated. You, generally, you ask your friend that "I want to purchase some diamond, so can you give me some reliable address where I can go and purchase?" Generally, people do that. So you have to do that. If you want to purchase, you must know the preliminary understanding where diamond can be purchased. And if you are not aware of it, you may be cheated. That preliminary knowledge you must have. That means best thing is, those who are dealing with diamonds, you go there. Just like if anyone is inquisitive to understand God, so best thing is those who are dealing with God only, they have no other business. Then you go there. That is the intelligent. Why should you go to a cheater? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is especially distributing knowledge about God. So why do they not come here and inquire? First thing is, unless one is inquisitive to understand God, or Absolute Truth, he has no necessity of guru . But if he is actually serious, then he must go to a person where the dealing is only God. That's all. Just like ordinarily, if anyone wants to purchase some share of company, he goes to the share market and he sees the price of different shares, and he selects. So everything requires little intelligence, then it is all right. Otherwise, you may be cheated. Whatever business you do, you must do it intelligently. But if you are foolishly doing something, you may be cheated. Why we are opening so many centers all over the world? We are giving opportunity, people, to come and understand about God. Why do they not come here? Then he can make his judgment that "Here is the genuine party." And if one accepts some cheap God, that means he has no understanding about God. He's a rascal. If I say I'm God and somebody accepts me as God, then he's a foolish man. They do not know what is meaning of God. If one wants God, he must know at least what is meant by God. Every scripture, just like in Bible it is said, "God has created this universe." So if you come to me and accept me as God, why don't you test whether I have created another universe like this? Why you accept a cheap God who hasn't done anything? Simply he's bluff, and he says that "I am God." So why do you accept as God? Hmm? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I was going to get you a fan, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for the flies. That would be nice. Hari-śauri: There's no fan here. Prabhupāda: Why should we accept a cheap God? Everything requires intelligence. If you are not intelligent, then every transaction you may be cheated. Everyone has heard "God is great." So great means there should be nobody equal to Him and nobody greater than Him. That is greatness. So test that man whether he has no competitor, another God. Nowadays there are so many Gods. So God is great, why there is another competitor? This is intelligence. Devotee (1): Prabhupāda? Can one make progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, whatever we are talking you should understand, then bring another question. Don't puzzle. One question decide. Don't make it whimsical dictionary. Then it is not good. First of all decide one question clearly. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: So the bona fide guru does not claim to be God, but he gives knowledge of God, and he only deals with God. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is bona fide guru . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A very common occurrence in the Western countries, they say that anyone can be guru . In fact, one Westerner who went to India and came back—he's very popular in the United States today—he says that everyone is guru and everyone is God. Prabhupāda: And people accept that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. People are accepting. Prabhupāda: Now you discuss this point. Discuss this point. *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Prabhupāda: No, first of all, you discuss this point, everyone is God and everyone is guru . Devotee (2): Only if one hears from the right authority can one be guru. Has to be . . . spiritual knowledge is descending. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The premise of the *Vedas* is that there's a creator of everything. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a creator of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Origin of everything. The premise of these so*-called spiritual masters . . . Prabhupāda: No, this is a common sense. If everyone is God, then what is the necessity of finding out a guru ? Guru means who explains about God. Everyone is God, then what is the use of explanation? There is no need of guru . Devotee (2): How can God be controlled by His own energy, illusory energy? Prabhupāda: So many things. Foolish men can accept that "Everyone is God, everyone is guru ." That is foolish man's proposition and accepted by fools. Devotee (2): It is explained in Back to Godhead magazine that a person who teaches how to serve Kṛṣṇa, how to serve God, is guru . Someone tells you that he is guru . . . (indistinct) . . . a dog. Back to Godhead magazine explains. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So to accept a spiritual master must mean that one is in ignorance and one is enlightened. Prabhupāda: For ignorance there is no need of guru . An ignorance cannot inquire about God. Intelligent man can inquire about God. Guest: We have to pick up our children . . . (indistinct) . . . thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Pick up children from a school? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From somewhere. Prabhupāda: Do you know him? Devotee (2): They're from Wheeling. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Once you said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, "If you are God, what will you do when I kick on your face?" Because if God is creating the sun, such a great planet in the sky, thousands of tons of energy, so if they are the source of the sun, but "What can they do if I kick in their face? Nothing. So how is that God?" Kṛṣṇa, when . . . someone was . . . Paundraka, he was saying he was God. He said, "All right, hold My cakra." And He took off his head. So to these false Gods we can say, "What will you do if we kick you in the face? You cannot save yourself." Prabhupāda: That is the proper treatment. (laughter) *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is one common philosophy also held by a lot of religious groups that God can be understood directly from within, and that no guru or spiritual master is necessary. That if I desire to approach God, and if He's all*-powerful, He can instruct me from within. They feel like this. Therefore they dispute our claim that we understand God in a different way, that you need a genuine spiritual master. And yet when we approach them, one man will say he has God within his heart and he understands God in this way, and another man is receiving instruction from God from within the heart, and yet he's saying another thing. Prabhupāda: So? Devotee (2): Yet they continue to claim like that, so . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, when God teaches Arjuna . . . his realization from within should be the same as Kṛṣṇa is teaching to Arjuna. It should be confirmed by śāstra. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He was saying that these people say, "God is instructing me from within," but they all have different philosophies. Prabhupāda: But he's a rascal, and who accepts him, he's a rascal. How do you think that God is speaking to him? How do you accept it? How do you accept that God is speaking to him? Devotee (2): Well, I don't accept it. Prabhupāda: But you are advocating. Why do you accept this? Devotee (2): He would say that he has turned his . . . Prabhupāda: He would say, but you must know that he's talking foolish. How God can talk with him? What is the condition? Therefore you have to read books. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). *Prabhupāda: No. God talks with whom? That is said. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānaṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10). Those who have already become devotee of God and engaged in His service, He talks with him. Not he's a third-class fool. He doesn't talk with him. It is clearly stated, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām , one who is twenty-four-hours engaged in the service of the Lord, with love and faith, God talks with him. That is clearly stated. How do you understand that God is talking with him, a rascal fool, who has no business with God? God talks with devotee, very sincere devotee who is already engaged in God's service. He talks with him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But then he might say, "But I love God." *Prabhupāda: He might say, that is another thing. The standard is this. He may say—he's a rascal, he can say so many nonsense things. That is not the standard. He says that "God is talking with me." So I have to see whether he's a candidate with whom God can talk. The formula is teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10): "One who is twenty-four-hours engaged in My service with love and faith," God talks with him. So first of all see whether he's twenty-four-hours engaged in God's service with love and faith. Then you can understand, "Yes, God is talking with him." But he has no preliminary qualification, if he says, "I can talk with God," he's a nonsense. That means because you are a nonsense, you are talking about him that God talks with him. You do not know with whom God talks. So you are nonsense also. You accept him, "Yes, he may be talking with God." How he can talk? That means you are also nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks. Why do you accept such proposition? If some storekeeper says that "I have passed M.A., L.L.D.," and I have to accept that? You must know with whom God talks. That means you are nonsense. You are accepting nonsensically. And a person who is constantly engaged in God's service, unless he's trained up by a spiritual master, how can he be engaged? So without spiritual master, one cannot be engaged in devotional service; and without devotional service, nobody's eligible to talk with God. So that nonsense talking, that without spiritual master God talking, and he has become perfect, this is all nonsense. One who believes, he is also nonsense. He does not know God. To raise such question means nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks; therefore you have brought this question. Otherwise, you would have kicked immediately. It is impossible. What do you think? Devotee (2): I understand what you are saying. Prabhupāda: Then why do you raise this question? Devotee (2): It's a matter of argument also. Prabhupāda: Argument? Why do you bring such nonsense argument, waste time? Don't waste time. You are ignorant, you are accepting. Don't remain ignorant. It is common sense. Is it so easy that one can talk with God? If some common man says, "Just now I went to Mr. Ford and talked with him. I'm coming back from him," so any gentleman will believe that? So these are our insufficiency, that we believe such thing. We are not properly trained up. Simply waste time. That's not good. He may talk nonsense; why I shall accept nonsense? The same example: If somebody comes, "Now I'm just coming from talking with Mr. Ford, the President," shall I have to believe? If he's a common man, how he can talk with President Ford? If I believe, then I am also nonsense. Where is that? Hari-śauri: We don't have a fan in here . . . I have go somewhere else. I have to bring a fan from somewhere else. *Prabhupāda: No, no, bring, you can bring some soft cloth. Why this is? You bring some soft cloth. So don't indulge such nonsense question. You must personally understand. That is knowledge. If you are reading Bhagavad*-gītā , how you can accept nonsense, he says that "I can talk with Kṛṣṇa without spiritual master"? It is absurd proposition. So why you should accept such absurd proposition unless you are also another absurd? If you knew that it is not possible, you, "You rascal." Don't talk with him. Don't waste time. But you also do not know with whom God talks. Clearly stated. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ (BG 10.10). Teṣām evānukampārtham (BG 10.11). Why don't you read all these proposals? With whom God talks? Hmm? Why did you not? Devotee (2): I'm familiar with those verses. *Prabhupāda: Then why did you not say that "God talks with such*-and-such person, but you are not such and such. Why you are talking nonsense? That means you are cheating. But you cannot cheat me. I know." So you must know. You must know with whom God talks. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, does this mean that we should not speak with those who ask such questions? Prabhupāda: But you must know how to answer it! Otherwise, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why there are so many books? You do not read it; you do not know how to answer it even. That means you do not read. If you knew that God does not speak with rascals or anyone ordinary, then you would have immediately replied, "God does not speak to you. It is not possible. It requires qualification." Why should you believe it and waste your time? Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu prays that one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige. How do we lose that desire for false prestige? Prabhupāda: Answer him. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Desire for false prestige? First of all, ceto*-darpana-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). The heart is full of so many dirty things, and basically all of these revolve around the bodily concept of life—I think I'm this body. Therefore we're desiring honor, we don't like to be dishonored; and looking for so many gains, we don't like to lose something. So there are so many dualities that exist: respect and disrespect, honor and dishonor. So when you become purified, freed from the bodily concept of life by chanting, then naturally honor and dishonor, they are not very important; they are only in relationship to the body. Prabhupāda: (aside) Come nearer. Yes. Now argue, whether you are satisfied with his answer. If not, say it. In this way, discuss. Are you satisfied with his answer? Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it says that the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta is the postgraduate study for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Hmm, hear him. What does he say? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the postgraduate study . . . *Devotees: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , postgraduate study. *Kulaśekhara: So if we're very attracted to reading Caitanya*-caritāmṛta now, but we haven't finished Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , is that good? Or should we wait until we have studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam thoroughly? *Prabhupāda: It does not mean that one who is not postgraduate, he cannot read other books. Spiritual life is not a stereotype like that. But one who is not postgraduate, it is little difficult for him to understand the statement of . . . just like in the beginning of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said, na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāj jagati para-tattvaṁ param iha (CC Adi 1.3), that there is no superior truth than Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So if you have not studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , you'll not understand this statement. If you understand, "Yes, Caitanya is the Supreme Truth," then it is to be understood that you have graduated. And if you are not, then it will be difficult for you to understand. *Kulaśekhara: Then the more we understand Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , the more we'll understand the Caitanya-caritāmṛta . *Prabhupāda: Yes, and if you understood Bhāgavatam thoroughly, then you can understand Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . But if you have not understood Bhāgavatam , then you cannot understand Caitanya-caritāmṛta . The simple statement, na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāt para-tattvaṁ param iha . Where is Caitanya-caritāmṛta ? Bring. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Which volume, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: First volume. That means you are not reading, you simply are referring. This is the difficulty. Without thoroughly reading something, we bring so many questions. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore forbidden, bahu śāstra nā pore . Don't bother yourself reading so many books at a time. You'll be puzzled. Find out this verse, yad advaitaṁ brahmopaniṣadi tad apy asya tanu*-bhā . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't believe there's an index in this first volume. Prabhupāda: In the first chapter you'll find. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: In the first seventeen verses, "What is described in the *Upaniṣads* . . ." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yad advaita . . . *Prabhupāda: Yad advaitaṁ brahma*-upaniṣadi . Go, find out. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "What the *Upaniṣads* describe as the impersonal Brahman is but the effulgence of His body, and the Lord known as the Supersoul is but His localized plenary portion. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa Himself, full with six opulences. He is the Absolute Truth, and no other truth is greater than or equal to Him." *Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . So will anyone be able to understand this verse? Hmm? Everything is stated there, what is Caitanya. Will everyone be able to understand it? That is the proof that he's not graduate. If he is graduate, then he should understand. Therefore it is postgraduate. *Kulādri: One must understand Bhagavad*-gītā before Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam ? *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is stated there, yad advaitaṁ brahma upaniṣadi . That means he must understand the Upaniṣads . He must understand what is Brahman. So without understanding this, how he can understand Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ? It will be explained there, but the fact is this. What is that? Is there any explanation? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, no purport to this verse. Prabhupāda: So further on there is explanation. Find out that. *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? How does one know when he has the understanding of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: What does he say? Answer him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What did you say? *Devotee (2): How does one know when he has the understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One has understood Bhagavad*-gītā who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, because Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), that "The essence of all knowledge is to surrender unto Me, to give up all other duties." So one who takes that instruction as life and soul, he has understood Bhagavad-gītā . Is that all right? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same verse again in the Second Chapter. (break) "The *Upaniṣads* , which are considered the most elevated portion of the Vedic literatures, are meant for persons who desire to get free from material association and who therefore approach a bona fide spiritual master for enlightenment. The prefix upa indicates that one must receive knowledge about the Absolute Truth from a spiritual master. One who has faith in his spiritual master actually receives transcendental instruction, and as his attachment for material life slackens, he is able to advance on the spiritual path. Knowledge of the transcendental science of the *Upaniṣads* . . ." Prabhupāda: Where is that boy? You are hearing? Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Knowledge of the transcendental science of the *Upaniṣads* can free one from the entanglement of existence in the material world, and when thus liberated, one can be elevated to the spiritual kingdom of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by advancement in spiritual life. *"The beginning of spiritual enlightenment is realization of impersonal Brahman. Such realization is effected by gradual negation of material variegatedness. Impersonal Brahman realization is the partial, distant experience of the Absolute Truth that one achieves through the rational approach. It is compared to one's seeing a hill from a distance and taking it to be a smoky cloud. A hill is not a smoky cloud, but it appears to be one from a distance because of our imperfect vision. In imperfect or smoky realization of the Absolute Truth, spiritual variegatedness is conspicuous by its absence. This experience is therefore called advaita*-vāda , or realization of the oneness of the Absolute. *"The impersonal glowing effulgence of Brahman consists only of the personal bodily rays of the Supreme Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Since Śrī Gaurasundara, or Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, is identical with Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself, the Brahman effulgence consists of the rays of His transcendental body. Similarly, the Supersoul, which is called the Paramātmā, is a plenary representation of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The antaryāmi , the Supersoul in everyone's heart, is the controller of all living entities. This is confirmed in Bhagavad*-gītā , wherein Lord Kṛṣṇa says, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ : "I am situated in everyone's heart." (BG 15.15) Bhagavad-gītā also states, Fifth Chapter, twenty-ninth verse, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29), indicating that the Supreme Lord, acting in His expansion as the Supersoul, is the proprietor of everything. Similarly, the Brahma-saṁhitā states, aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35): the Lord is present everywhere, within the heart of every living entity and within each and every atom as well. Thus by this Supersoul feature the Lord is all-pervading. "Furthermore, Lord Caitanya is also the master of all wealth, strength, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation because He is Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself. He is described as pūrṇa , or complete. In the feature of Lord Caitanya, the Lord is an ideal renouncer, just as Śrī Rāma was an ideal king. He accepted the order of sannyāsa and exemplified exceedingly wonderful principles in His own life. No one can compare to Him in the order of sannyāsa ." Prabhupāda: (aside) Not like that. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Although in Kali*-yuga acceptance of the sannyāsa order is generally forbidden, Lord Caitanya accepted it . . ." Prabhupāda: (aside) On the head. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ". . . because He is complete in renunciation. Others cannot imitate Him but can only follow in His footsteps as far as possible. Those who are unfit for this order of life are strictly forbidden by the injunctions of the śāstras to accept it. Lord Caitanya, however, is complete in renunciation as well as all other opulences. He is therefore the highest principle of the Absolute Truth. By an analytical study of the truth of Lord Caitanya, one will find that He is not different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. No one is greater than or even equal to Him. In Bhagavad*-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): 'O conqueror of wealth (Arjuna), there is no truth superior to Me.' Thus it is here confirmed that there is no truth higher than Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. *"The impersonal Brahman is the goal of those who cultivate the study of books of transcendental knowledge, and the Supersoul is the goal of those who perform the yoga practices. One who knows the Supreme Personality of Godhead surpasses realization of both Brahman and Paramātmā, because Bhagavān is the ultimate platform of absolute knowledge. The Personality of Godhead is the complete form of sac*-cidananda (full life, knowledge and bliss). By realization of the sat portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited existence), one realizes the impersonal Brahman of the Lord. By realization of the cit portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited knowledge), one can realize the localized aspect of the Lord, Paramātmā. But neither of these partial realizations of the Complete Whole can help one realize ānanda , or complete bliss. Without such realization of ānanda , knowledge of the Absolute Truth is incomplete. *"This verse of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta by Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī is confirmed by a parallel statement in the Tattva-sandarbha by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī. In the Eighth Part of Tattva-sandarbha it is said that the Absolute Truth is sometimes approached as impersonal Brahman, which, although spiritual, is only a partial representation of the Absolute Truth. Nārāyaṇa, the predominating Deity in Vaikuṇṭha, is to be known as an expansion of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, but Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Absolute Truth, the object of the transcendental love of all living entities." Prabhupāda: So is it clear? (laughs) It is not so easy. (laughter) Therefore it is postgraduate. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can these things be understood theoretically, Śrīla Prabhupāda, or is realization required? Prabhupāda: Realization required. What is the use of theoretical knowledge? Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, can realization be had through service without theoretical understanding? *Prabhupāda: This whole science is understood through service only. Everything becomes revealed. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). Revelation. Everything is revelation. Unless one is very sincere servant, there is no revelation. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it described a gradual process of realizing Kṛṣṇa, but does the devotee go through these levels of understanding Brahman then Paramātmā then Bhagavān? Prabhupāda: Hmm? (microphone moving) Dhṛṣṭadyumna: It was described how the levels of understanding the Absolute—Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Does the devotee gradually go through these levels, or does he immediately realize Brahman when his service is perfect? Prabhupāda: That depends on his capacity. (aside) Just on the head do it. Devotee (2): Mahārāja Kīrtanānanda said that our actual realization comes through our actions. So we are, in building this New Vrindavan, we are actually . . . this is taken to be our preaching, or our life and soul. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: What is your question? Devotee (2): My question is how do we . . . Devotee (3): Prabhupāda, his question is will one become realized by continually engaging in devotional service under the direction of a bona fide representative of the spiritual master? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The question is that his service is here in New Vrindavan under Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Will serving the representative of the spiritual master . . . is that as good as serving the spiritual master? Will it get the same result? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that was the question. No? At least, I understand the question to be: Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: That is the Absolute Truth. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Absolute means there is no difference. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's service, the same. So discuss it further. Devotee: Is that to say that if one— brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11)—that if one simply goes on serving, engaging in all sorts of different activities for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, but he never, in this lifetime at least, has realization of Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān . . .? *Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Everything is explained. By seeing the sun one can understand the sunshine, the sun globe and the sun*-god. There are three things. Within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke to Vivasvata." So there is a person Vivasvata, and the globe is there, we see, and the sunshine is there. So what is the difficulty to understand? Hmm? Three things are there. The person within the sun globe, Vivasvata, is there; *otherwise how Kṛṣṇa could speak with him? He says, imaṁ vivasvate yogam : "Unto Vivasvata I spoke." So there is a person. And we can see the globe, and we can see the sunshine. Is there any difficulty? So similarly, the Brahman is the sunshine, light, and Paramātmā is the sun globe, and Bhagavān is the sun*-god. This is . . . the sun is one example. From this example we can understand the Absolute. Where is the difficulty? (aside) Sit down properly. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). As heat and light, all of them are the same . . . in the sunshine there is heat and light, in the sun globe there is heat and light, and within the sun globe there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. You can tolerate the heat and light of the sunshine, but if you go to the sun globe you'll be finished. Temperature's so high, it requires a special qualification. Similarly, from heat and light point of view, Brahman, Paramātmā, Bhagavān, the same. Everywhere there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. So one who understands Brahman, he cannot understand Paramātmā. He understands, but not as thoroughly. Similarly, one who understands Paramātmā, he can understand Bhagavān. But if you understand Bhagavān, then you understand Paramātmā, Brahman, everything. Kulaśekhara: So we should simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Try to understand everything, but understanding Kṛṣṇa, you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam eva vijñātaṁ bhavanti (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). And because you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore you do not understand Brahman, you do not understand Paramātmā. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then it is automatically understood. We have not understood Brahman, Paramātmā, because we have not understood Kṛṣṇa properly. Kṛṣṇa says, aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "I am the source of everything." So Brahman is also from Kṛṣṇa, Paramātmā is also from Kṛṣṇa. And so other Bhagavāns—there are so many Bhagavāns also—they are from Kṛṣṇa. *So if you understand Kṛṣṇa you can understand everything. And as soon as you say that you have not understood it, therefore you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. They cannot understand. Just like Māyāvādīs, they do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore they do not understand Brahman also. And therefore they fall down, because they have not understood either Brahman or Kṛṣṇa. Patanty adhaḥ . This is stated in the śāstra . Anādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32), because they have not understood Kṛṣṇa, even they have gone up to the Brahman, they cannot stand there; they fall down. Again they come to the material world. The Māyāvādīs, they say, brahma satyma jagan mithyā : "Brahman is truth, and this material world is false." They take sannyāsa , but after some time they fall down, again take to other businesses than Brahman in the material world. Just like our Vivekananda. He came to the Western countries to preach Vedānta , and he has advertised that "Whole America has become Vedāntist ." The proof of Vedānta is when he returned to India he became very enthusiastic to open hospitals, like the Christian missionaries. So if the material world is false, so why he's trying to open hospital? Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . Jagat is mithyā . So why in the mithyā platform he's taking credit by opening hospital? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, as long as people are suffering, they can't realize that they are God. Prabhupāda: So you cannot stop the suffering. You are unable. You are also suffering from the same disease. So don't say that jagat mithyā . If they are suffering, that's a fact. Then how do you say it is mithyā , it is false? If it is mithyā , then why you are affected by the suffering? There are so many questions. That means not realization. Contradictory. If you feel the suffering, then why you call it mithyā ? It is fact. Why do you say it is mithyā ? That means you have no realization. You are accepting suffering as mithyā . We say suffering is not mithyā; it is fact. But if you want to save from suffering, then you get out of this material world. We don't say that, that suffering is mithyā or this world is mithyā . We don't say that. We are offering this flower to Kṛṣṇa, not as mithyā; *it is a means of service. Why shall I say it is mithyā ? By offering . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26): by offering a little flower. How can I say this is mithyā ? Māyāvādīs' philosophy, it is mithyā . With mithyā we can approach the satya ? By hundreds of false we can make one truth? Kṛṣṇa says that "If you offer Me a little flower," so how can I say this is mithyā ? It is not mithyā . It is satya . When it is satya ? When it is offered to Kṛṣṇa. And when you take it for your sense gratification, that is mithyā . That is mithyā . You cannot enjoy it. If you enjoy it, then go to hell. If you offer it to Kṛṣṇa, you go to Him. So how can I say it is mithyā ? You cannot approach Kṛṣṇa with something mithyā . Then Kṛṣṇa becomes mithyā . There are so many things to be studied. We don't say like that. We find there is relationship of Kṛṣṇa with everything. When we find this beautiful rose, we find the intelligence of Kṛṣṇa. By Kṛṣṇa's intelligence it has come out so nice, fragrant, beautiful. They say it is made by nature. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). So under Kṛṣṇa's direction nature has made it so beautiful. That is a fact. Therefore I find there is hand of Kṛṣṇa in this flower. So Kṛṣṇa has made this; this is Kṛṣṇa's property; it should be offered to Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti. We are not offering something mithyā to Kṛṣṇa. It is fact. It is made by Kṛṣṇa. If you say, "No, no, I don't touch this flower," so what is credit there? You have not prepared it. You touch or not touch, it doesn't matter. If you say, "No, no, it is material. I don't touch it," you may not touch it, but you do not know it is not material, it is spiritual, it is made by Kṛṣṇa. So you have to study deeply. Everything is . . . ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the source of everything." So the flower is also from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), from whom everything is emanating. The flower is also within the everything. How can I say it is false? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kulādri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said we can't understand Brahman unless we understand Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real understanding. And without Kṛṣṇa, if you understand brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , then you fall down. Kulādri: But it seems, then, you have to come to the full understanding before it does any good. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means those who are simply trying to understand Brahman, they are not understanding. Kulādri: Then what does it mean, gradual process, gradual advancement in transcendental realization? Prabhupāda: Gradual process, just like you are here in the sunshine. So if you are intelligent, you'll understand that the temperature in the sunshine and the temperature in the sun globe is different. So Brahman understanding is the lowest stage. Paramātmā understanding little higher. And Bhagavān understanding is complete. That is gradual. And these Māyāvādīs, they do not try to understand Kṛṣṇa. They are satisfied only with understanding Brahman. Therefore they fall down. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta (SB 10.2.32). Because there is no standing. The impersonal feature, that the sky . . . go very high in the sky, you do not see anymore this planet earth, neither you see anything, you'll be mad. Then you will find out how to go back again. You cannot stay there in that condition. Although they say " so'ham ," no, you cannot stay there. Just imagine, if you go very high and you do not see any other thing, only sky, will you be able to stay in that condition? You go in the sea. When you do not find anything, all water, you become very much anxious, "Where is land? Where is land?" And as soon as you have a glimpse of land, island, you become very, "Oh, there is land." So this is impersonal understanding. It is simply imagination, that simply by Brahman understanding he'll be happy. No, that is not possible. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, then even Brahman has to be understood in relationship to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (1): Even Brahman has to be understood . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real understanding. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham (BG 14.27). Prabhupāda: Hmm. Now wherefrom this fragrance have come? Devotees: From the earth. Prabhupāda: Get out this fragrance from earth, you scientist. By Kṛṣṇa's manipulation here is fragrance. Everyone knows it has come from earth. If there is, in the earth, there is no such fragrance, wherefrom it came? So therefore it is there, it is understood, but you get it out. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, we can take the chemicals and mix them, produce fragrance. Prabhupāda: Take the chemicals? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. We can analyze the chemical structure and make . . . *Prabhupāda: No, the flower has taken directly, without any chemical addition. You do that. It is a fact, the flavor is there within the earth. You take the flavor, extract the flavor. Not only this flavor, there are different flavors, all, everything there. There are so many flowers coming out. Huh? Sarva*-kāma dugha-mahī (SB 1.10.4). Mahī means earth. Everything's coming out from the earth. But not in your attempt. It is Kṛṣṇa's attempt that He can take out. Out of so many different flavors, everything is there within the earth, but Kṛṣṇa's manipulation takes the different colors, different flavors, different bodies, everything. That is Kṛṣṇa's manipulation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10). Just like in our kitchen we have got the ingredients, rice, ḍāl , āṭṭā , ghee . But the expert can prepare hundreds of preparations. That expert is Kṛṣṇa. And if one is not expert, even the ingredients are there, he'll spoil everything. He'll mix the āṭṭā with water then put ghee and then put rice. (laughter) This is the . . . we have to become expert. If you become expert, then you'll do very nice purī , ḍāl , rice . . . (indistinct) . . . there are so many varieties. You enjoy. And if you are not expert, you'll spoil. So Kṛṣṇa is expert and Kṛṣṇa bhakta is expert, because he takes lesson from Kṛṣṇa. So for them this is not mithyā . Rascals who spoil it, they think it is mithyā . He could not do anything. He mix with a conglomeration, and because he could not get any result, he said mithyā . Disappointment. And one who knows, he knows how to utilize it. Just like we are utilizing the cows in so many nice preparations, and these rascal killing them. Finished. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And then they want to say that this is mithyā , that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is mithyā . Prabhupāda: Whatever they say, practically see. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. They do not know how to use the cow, only kill. Devotee (4): You said that is the sour grape philosophy. Prabhupāda: Grape philosophy? What is that? Hari-śauri: Sour grapes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The fox . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: . . . wanted to taste the grapes, but he couldn't, so he said they are no good. *Prabhupāda: You do not know expert. So if we remain under the guidance of Kṛṣṇa, then we also become expert to some extent. And Kṛṣṇa's expertly service or intelligence we can see in the flower, so many flowers. So why shall I not take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66)? That is intelligence. That is intelligence. We see Kṛṣṇa's expertly manipulation. So if we take Kṛṣṇa's shelter, at least we shall get little intelligence. Dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam (BG 10.10): "He gets the intelligence directly from Me." And that is wanted. Why it is foolishly dealing with this rice, ḍāl , and make spoil everything? Be little expert from Kṛṣṇa's instructions and make everything nice. Kṛṣṇa personally teaches how to deal with cows. He never showed the example of killing the cows. He maintained the cows, the calf. He was distributing butter even to the monkeys. And the pasturing ground became muddy on account of milk dropping from the bags. This is Kṛṣṇa. And He is personally taking care. So why the Kṛṣṇa's devotees should not do it? Give protection to the cows and utilize the milk. That is one of the item of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not keeping hogs and dogs; we are keeping cows, because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa did not keep so many dogs, as nowadays so many big, big men, they are keeping dogs. Kṛṣṇa did not do so. If we follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then we are perfect. Practical example. We have not invent. If we simply follow what Kṛṣṇa has instructed us, then we become perfect. Devotee (5): How can we perfectly follow only what Kṛṣṇa has said? The other evening you said that the patient, he is always a fool and a rascal. Prabhupāda: Answer him. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But one should not remain a fool and a rascal. If the doctor has given the formula, you have to follow it. He says "Don't eat this but stay in bed, sleep so much," you have to do it, otherwise you will stay sick. Prabhupāda: You'll remain a rascal if you don't follow the instruction. So what do you want? You remain a rascal or make advance? What you want? Huh? Devotee (5): To become advanced. Prabhupāda: Then follow. If you willfully remain a rascal, that is the difference. Otherwise, if you follow you'll become advanced. Everywhere you'll find Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. He says mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10). They explain, "Nature." But they cannot explain what is nature. We can explain. Nature is a system which is being handled by Kṛṣṇa. That is real understanding. Nature, we can see that from nature this flower is coming, this flower is coming. But why not . . .? They say accidentally. If it is accident, why in the plant of this flower sometimes rose is not coming accidentally? And why from the rose plant not accidentally this flower is coming? So where is the question of accident? You have never experienced such accident. The same plant, the same flower is coming. Where is a proof by accident another flower has come? Where is the proof? So why do they say like that, "accident"? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Because they don't want to accept God. Prabhupāda: No, no, accept God or not, where the accident theory comes? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well if they don't give some explanation, then they'll be considered fools. *Prabhupāda: Some explanation, they have to give you something foolish explanation? So foolish man will accept that, not a sane man. If you say "by accident," then I'll say why not accident in the history of the world there is a rose plant some other flower has come out? If man has come from monkey, why not coming now? So they give so many foolish propositions, only fools will accept. Anyone who has a little reasoning power they will not . . . they'll understand that these are all crazy fellows, talking all nonsense. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ (SB 5.18.12). We have got little formula to understand that if one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious he has no good qualifications. He cannot say anything as a qualified person. That is the test. Mūḍha . Immediately take: a mūḍha . Let the mūḍhas speak all nonsense. Why should we waste our time? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As soon as we find somebody not Kṛṣṇa conscious, not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, we take, reject. He's a rascal, that's all. And he is rascal. Not only blindly we are rejecting, but with reason. (break) So one learned brāhmaṇa , he said, "All right sir, namaskār your Kṛṣṇa. I cannot believe all these things." And the cobbler, he began to cry: "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is so great, He can do anything." So he, Nārada Muni asked, he saw the learned brāhmaṇa refused to accept, and this cobbler is so absorbed that he's crying, "Ah, Kṛṣṇa can do anything." So he asked him, "Do you believe this?" "Yes, why not?" "So how do you believe it?" "Now I'm sitting under this banyan tree, and so many banyan fruits are falling down, and I can see there are hundreds and thousands of seeds within the fig, and each seed contains a banyan tree. So why can I not believe? If within this seed a big banyan tree can be kept, what is the difficulty for Kṛṣṇa to pull the elephant through the hole of a needle?" He has got reason. He is not blindly believing. How the scientist, who does not believe in God, he can explain that within the small seed there is a big banyan tree? Let them do that. By chemical composition make little seed. As I told, make little egg. They cannot do anything. Still they are so proud. *Dhrstadyumna: Yesterday we read, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that these are the qualities of the demon, that arrogance and pride, and their philosophy is there is no God in control. Kṛṣṇa said in Bhagavad*-gītā . *Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in that story, the cobbler actually was more advanced than the brāhmaṇa , and yet in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that "Anyone can approach Me, even the strī śūdra dvija-bandhu ," they can all approach the supreme destination. Then in the next verse He says, "How much greater, then, are the brāhmaṇas , the righteous, the devotees, the saintly kings." I was wondering how are they greater? Prabhupāda: You do not understand it? Devotee (1): I do not understand how they are greater than the lower person who surrenders. Prabhupāda: Suppose you have got your spiritual master and you, if somebody says that you can come into the . . . any one of you can come in this car. So spiritual master goes, you also go. Does it mean that spiritual master is not greater than you? Do you think like that? Devotee (1): No. Prabhupāda: Then? It is the same thing. Suppose Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja has brought this car, so he says, "All of you can come." So I go, you go. Does it mean that you and your spiritual master is equal? Do you think like that? It is same thing. Everyone can go to Godhead, there is no doubt, but still there is difference between brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , śūdra . So far going into the car, the equal right is there, but it does not mean that your spiritual master or the next group, they are not greater than you. Don't think like that. The same car, so Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is driving, I am also there, you are also there. Does it mean that we are all equal? There must be gradation. The right is given to everyone. It does not mean that immediately they become all one. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He accepted everyone, "Come on." But the distinction is there. We are inviting everyone to partake Kṛṣṇa prasādam . That does not mean that immediately all of them have become of the equal rank. (pause) Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was so kind, but still there was distinction. When He was taking prasādam , personal associates, they were sitting with Him. Is it not? So this is called maryādā . Maryādā means "honor." That must . . . that varieties must be there. Otherwise we become Māyāvādīs—everything is equal, all one. This is Māyāvāda philosophy. No varieties. There must be variety. That is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And as soon as you make it varietyless, all equal, that is Māyāvāda . Just see even in this flower. This is also flower and this is also flower. Does it mean they are of the same rank? This is understanding. Together they look very beautiful, but if you take separate value, then it is valuable than this flower. That distinction must be there. If somebody says, "I am accepting even the leaf in this garland," then what to speak of rose? It is like that. Kṛṣṇa says that. That does not mean leaf and rose have the same value. One is making a beautiful garland: I am accepting everything. Mixed together it looks very nice, but individually the leaf has value, the rose has value, the flower has value. Not that because they are put together they have equal value. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Kulādri: In a democracy they say everyone is . . . Prabhupāda: Nonsense democracy. What is . . .? Don't talk of this nonsense talk. (laughter) Democracy, communism, still there are varieties. But you make a president. Let everyone become president. Kulādri: That's what they've done, now the śūdras . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: They have not done. Has everyone got the president's power? How do they say that you have done? Everyone equal? That is not possible. These are imagination. Mano*-rathenasato dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). Everything is there in the Bhāgavatam . Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ (SB 5.18.12). These rascals who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they have no value. They are simply speculating within the mind, mano-rathena, and they'll act all abominable, because they are on the mental platform. I'll say, "I think like this," you'll say, "I think like this." And nobody, none of us perfect. Then what is the use of your thinking like this or thinking like that? Both of them are imperfect. So if so many rascals sit together, or dogs, they simply bark, that's all. It has no value. So our propaganda is that "Don't remain in the dog platform. Come to the human platform." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There you will get, "If we all dogs meet together and pass a resolution, then it will be organized." That is democracy. Democracy means like that. The dog is kept as dog, and they are assembled together to take their votes. What is the value of their vote? They are dogs. I've publicly said this. Where? Devotees: Melbourne. Prabhupāda: Melbourne. The United Nation is an assembly of barking dogs, I've said that, (laughs) and they published it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "His Divine Grace has come to hound us." *Devotee (2): There is a so*-called spiritual master, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who is giving meditation courses to them. Prabhupāda: That is another cheating. In meditation,whatever nonsense they are doing, you don't know, nobody knows. That's all. Bhava satrugna . "If you become dumb, you have no enemy." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate . "A rascal is beautiful so long he does not speak." So better meditation; don't speak. Nobody will detect you. This is going on. If you speak, then you'll be detected what you are. And if you sleep by posing meditation, then nobody will ask, "What you are doing, nonsense?" This is meditation. Meditation is another cheating. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja has detected. Hmm? Find out this verse, Seventh Canto. Hari-śauri: This Śrī Chinmoy is supposed to be this resident guru at the United Nations . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever he may be, but we have got our own formula to understand. *Hari-śauri: He did a practical demonstration of what he said a person who is in touch with God can be capable of doing if he allows himself to become an instrument of God. So for eight months he painted continually, and he produced 27,000 paintings, and he said that this was proof that he was God*-realized. Prabhupāda: Mauna . The word begins with mauna . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maunam , like in "silence." Mauna*-vrata-śruta-tapo-adhyayana ? *"O Supreme Personality of Godhead, there are ten prescribed methods on the path to liberation—to remain silent, not to speak to anyone, to observe vows, to amass all kinds of Vedic knowledge, to undergo austerities, to study the Vedas and other Vedic literatures, to execute the duties of varṇāśrama*-dharma , to explain the śāstras , to stay in a solitary place, to chant mantras silently and to be absorbed in trance. These different methods for liberation are generally only a professional practice and means of livelihood . . ." Prabhupāda: Means of livelihood. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ". . . means of livelihood for those who have not conquered their senses. Because such persons are falsely proud, these procedures may not be successful." Prabhupāda: You can get some prestigious position from another rascal, but that will not solve the problem. What is the purport there? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: "As stated in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam (SB 6.1.15): *"Only a rare person who has adopted complete, unalloyed devotional service to Kṛṣṇa can uproot the weeds of sinful actions with no possibility that they will revive. He can do this simply by discharging devotional service, just as the sun can immediately dissipate fog by its rays." The real purpose of human life is to attain liberation from material entanglement. Such liberation may be achieved by many methods - tapasa brahmacāryeṇa śamena ca damena ca (SB 6.1.13) - but all of them more or less depend on tapasya , austerity, which begins with celibacy. Śukadeva Gosvāmī says that those who are vāsudeva*-parāyaṇa , who have fully surrendered to the lotus feet of Lord Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, automatically achieve the results of mauna (silence), vrata (vows), and other such methods, simply by discharging devotional service." *Prabhupāda: Take, for example, mauna . Mauna means don't talk rubbish. It is better not to talk than to talk foolish. So mauna is meant for them who cannot talk about Kṛṣṇa. Better stop talking. Mauna*-vrata . Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa, he'll talk all nonsense. So sometimes the spiritual master says that "You remain silent for twelve years." So (laughter) instead of talking nonsense, you remain silent for twelve years. That is mauna . Because as soon as you'll talk, you'll be captured where you are. Better not to talk. This is mauna-vrata . But one who is devotee, why he'll not . . .? He'll talk about Kṛṣṇa. Vācāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane (SB 9.4.18). Always talking about Kṛṣṇa. Why he should be silent? If he remains silent, then people will not get the benefit. Let him speak always of Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that. Y āre dekha , tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): whomever you meet, you simply talk about Kṛṣṇa, what He has taught in the Bhagavad-gītā , you become guru. So why guru will stop? Guru will speak. But what kind of speaking? What Kṛṣṇa has spoken. Not nonsense. Not like that: "I have painted so many pictures, therefore I have become God-realized." Where Bhagavān says "By painting pictures one may . . ." He does not say. Kṛṣṇa does not say. He has invented this. So therefore our test is, whether he's a bona fide guru , whether he's talking what Kṛṣṇa has said. Then he's guru . Otherwise a rascal. That's all, finished. Why should we bother? This is the test. If he's speaking, repeating the same thing, what Kṛṣṇa said, then he's guru . If he's talking something else, then he's rascal. Immediately take it. If you know this art, how to detect the rascal and guru , the test is already there. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So guru will say, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." He'll never say that "I have become Kṛṣṇa. You simply surrender to me." To surrender to Kṛṣṇa means surrender to guru also. You'll learn it. So "Kṛṣṇa is now dead; now I have become Kṛṣṇa," this is rascal, immediately. *So to test a guru and a rascal, there is no difficulty if you are well conversant with the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . There is no question. Kṛṣṇa says, ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). This confidential knowledge, what is that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66), one who is teaching this confidential knowledge—"Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa"—Kṛṣṇa says, "Ah, he is My dearmost friend." So you become dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa. Simply say what Kṛṣṇa says. Why do you speak all other nonsense things? You immediately become the dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa. And if you manufacture, then you are a rascal. Why shall I accept a rascal? We shall accept the dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa as guru . That is wanted. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, when He was asked by a gṛhastha devotee what should be the behavior of a Vaiṣṇava, He immediately said, asat-saṅga tyāga, ei vaiṣṇava ācāra (CC Madhya 22.87): "Give up the company of all rascals, asat ." Asat means those who are rascals. That is Vaiṣṇava. Do not mix with all rascals, asat . Now how shall I know who is rascal and who is not a . . .? Asat eka 'strī-saṅgī kṛṣṇa-bhakta āra . One who is too much attached with woman, he is rascal. Another rascal: who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. *So we have got everything test tube. Put the test tube and you understand. If one is strī*-saṅgī . . . strī-saṅgī means not only the man. The man or woman, one who are very much sexually attached, he is a rascal. One should give up his company. And another rascal: who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. So if you want to be a Vaiṣṇava, you must give up the company of these two rascals. Then your progress is guaranteed. Everything is there. There is no difficulty to distinguish between rascals and intelligent, guru and bluffer. Everything is there. And to become a perfect Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, asat-saṅga tyāga ei vaiṣṇava : don't talk even with these rascals. But sometimes in the preaching work we have to talk with such rascals, but not to take their theory but to teach them our theory. If you become defeated by their theory, then you are not a preacher. Don't preach; *chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You are not fit for teaching. If you become overcome by their teaching, then you are finished. A preacher is madhyama*-adhikārī , advanced devotee. He can preach. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī should be engaged in temple worship very nicely, then gradually he'll come to the madhyama-adhikārī . *So the preacher is madhyama*-adhikārī . A kaniṣṭha-adhikārī cannot become preacher. Who is in the lowest stage of devotional service, he cannot become preacher. He'll be conquered by the asat . And madhyama-adhikārī , he knows how to deal with asat . At least he does not mix with them. That's all. If he cannot defeat them, he should avoid them, because that valuable time can be utilized for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness to a person who is inquisitive to hear. Bāliśya . Bāliśya means innocent. He wants to know something about Kṛṣṇa. Better deal with him than with the rascals and waste time. Better avoid the rascals. Just like in hospital, emergency cases, the doctors, when they see that this patient hopeless, he does not take care anymore. But when there is hope, they give medicine and try to . . . the hopeless condition, better not. Don't talk with them. That's all. That is vaiṣṇava-ācāra . Then he'll remain safe. Hopeless person, don't waste your time talking with them. Īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca . Four observations. Bhagavān—īśvara; prema —love; *and prema*-maitrī , friendship with devotees; and kṛpa , mercy to the innocent person; *and upekṣā , no more talking. Don't waste time talking with all these nonsense. Better utilize, properly utilize the time by instructing a person who is innocent and eager to hear. Like that. So this mauna*-vrata-tapas-śruti . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Prabhupāda: These things are meant for ajitendriyānām , who could not control the senses. Ajitendriyānām . And who has engaged his senses in the service of the Lord, they are not ajitendriya . If you have engaged your mind in Kṛṣṇa—the mind is the king of senses—then your senses cannot be misled. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha (SB 9.4.18). Then if your mind is always in Kṛṣṇa, man-mana bhava mad bhakto , then what you'll speak except Kṛṣṇa? If you speak nonsense, that means your mind is not engaged in Kṛṣṇa. The mind is the center of all sensual activities. So if your mind is always in Kṛṣṇa, how we can talk nonsense? Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane . He'll be always engaged in talking about Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. So if we keep our mind always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there is no question of mauna , because we'll have to talk about Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I remain mauna ? If we talk about Kṛṣṇa, or what Kṛṣṇa has said, then I am benefited, and the audience, he is also benefited. Take Bhagavad-gītā and talk. So those who are Kṛṣṇa devotees, they will gladly hear. Those who are inquisitive, innocent, they'll also hear. And the dviṣāt , those who are envious, they'll go away. That's good, clear. Talk about Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. Don't talk anything else. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can we give up our enviousness and reluctance to serve the spiritual master and the other devotees? Prabhupāda: Answer him. Dhrstadyumna: One can free himself from envy by serving. You serve the devotees and follow the instruction of the spiritual master. In this way the mind becomes your best friend. *Prabhupāda: A devotee is never envious of another devotee. He is not a devotee. Tad*-adhīneṣu maitrī (SB 11.2.46). One who is devotee, we have to make friendship with them. How we can hate them? Hm. Devotees: Jaya , all glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya , haribol . (offer obeisances) ( kirtan ) (end) Conversation A -- June 28, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA (Conversation After Film) Ṛṣi Kumāra: It was very beautiful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ṛṣi Kumāra: Very nice film. Very pleasing. Prabhupāda: Now make Indian Bengali edition. It will be very much appreciated in India. Yes. Is it not? Ṛṣi Kumāra: Yes, everything looks so pleasing. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will very much like this movement. Make some Hindi version, Bengali. Kīrtanānanda: I think it will be a great success in India. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kumbha*-melā we can show. You had been in Kumbha-melā? *Ṛṣi Kumāra: No, I haven't. Last time it was Kumbha*-melā, I was in Bombay. I had to do some business with books and stuff. Prabhupāda: So you begin this preaching work in India with this film. With few assistants go village to village. They'll appreciate very much. Here also they will appreciate. Hmm? What do you think? School, college, university. They'll get an idea of new life. *Kīrtanānanda: Yes. There are many colleges that give courses now in alternate life*-styles. Prabhupāda: Yes, this a . . . Kīrtanānanda: This film, they will love to show this in class. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the alternative life*-style. It is not that . . . this is the only. The other thing is fictitious. That's nice. Keep it. Any other film? No. Make similar films. And I was anxious about food preparation. That is there, already there. Kīrtanānanda: Could have been a little more, but . . . *Prabhupāda: No, it is . . . in nutshell everything is there. Our agriculture, our temple, and food growing, and everything is there. Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship. The sum and substance, everything. And you are living practically for the last . . . eight years? Here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have no difficulty. You are happy more and more. Immense land. You can come, hundreds. We can provide. There is food. There is shelter. Kīrtanānanda: They are worried that by protecting the cow it would not be economic, that they would lose. But actually we have proof—the more we protect cows, the more we gain in opulence. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: Our community is gaining in opulence. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhānyena dhanavān . If you have got grain, then you are rich. And if you have got cows, then you are rich. This is the standard of Vedic richness. Dhānyena dhanavān gavayo dhanavān . They don't say, "Keep some papers and you become rich." All rascal, one thousand dollar I promise to pay, a piece of paper. Practical. We have got enough food grain, we have got enough . . . that is richness. What is use of paper? Even gold you have got, you have to exchange. And if you have grain, immediate food. Just boil with milk, and it is nectarean, paramānna, immediately. Take some wood collected from the wood and have fire, put the milk and the grains—oh, you'll get so nice food, nutritious, full of vitamin, and so easily made. It is practical. So tasteful, so nutritious, and don't require . . . if you simply boil little milk and little grain, whole day, so much sweet rice, you take— bās . You don't require any more. And if you add little apples and fruits, oh, it is heavenly. Your whole day free from any food anxiety, and you can work. And you can work. You can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make this ideal life here. America has got good potency. We have got so much land here. We can have hundreds of New Vrindabans or farms like that. And people will be happy. And invite all the world, "Please come and live with us. Why you are suffering congestion, overpopulation? Welcome here. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Make that. Indian culture and American strength make the whole world happy. That logic even I have given? Andha*-paṅgu? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Blind and lame. *Prabhupāda: India could not improve on account of poverty—lame. And America? Blind for want of culture. So let the blind man carry the lame man on the head, and the lame man give direction that "Go this way," and he walks. So both men's work is done. There is no hampering because one is blind and one is lame. Combined together, they get the benefit. Andha*-paṅgor nyāya . *Rādhā*-vallabha: The book distributors use that example sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It works, too. Prabhupāda: Do it very sincerely. Don't spoil life. Be very sober and do this work. Whole world will be happy. After all, they are seeking after happiness. So there is happiness here. So our Ṛṣi Kumāra is very intelligent boy. He can do so many things. Don't spoil him. Whatever is done is done. Sometimes māyā is strong. He bewilders even Lord Śiva. That is . . . but Śiva immediately came to his senses—"What I am doing?" So things are going on nice. Continue this program. People will be happy. And I think America is the only place who can spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement happily for the benefit of the whole world. You have got everything sufficiently. Now get the Kṛṣṇa intelligence. Now here, in this quarter, sun also rising very nicely nowadays. Formerly it was not so bright. Due to this Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting, sun is giving light. Is it not? Kīrtanānanda: It is a fact, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: The more people will be sinful, the place will be dark with cloudy. Nature will always disturb. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān ( BG 16.19). They will not be happy. It is not possible. This is the only way to become happy. So, so far as possible, I have given you some framework. Now you fill up. Make it a nice building. Yes. All right. (devotees offer obeisances) (break) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Viśākhā was wondering who . . . if you have any idea or choice who should do the Hindi translation or Bengali translation and speaking for the film like this. Did you have anyone in particular in mind? Or inquiry should be made? Prabhupāda: It requires some professional man. Laymen cannot go with the film. Hari-śauri: It needs a trained speaker. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Needs someone who's trained to speak nicely. Prabhupāda: Anyone can do. We can do also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But it may not come out so nice. Prabhupāda: But it may not be perfect. (break) Ṛṣi Kumāra: Prabhupāda, is it all right if I remain a sannyāsī ? Prabhupāda: Stay for some time. You'll get sannyāsa . Stay for some time. Ṛṣi Kumāra: Okay. I don't want to get married. It's just being kicked by māyā . I can see that. Prabhupāda: At least you have got already experience. (laughs) Don't be misled. Stay for sometimes. You will be given sannyāsa . And now Mr. Punja, has he written any letter? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Punjasai? He wrote a letter recently. He mentioned the business about the books, that Gurukṛpā said he was supposed to some give books from Australia, and he wasn't getting them. Prabhupāda: So you can write him—note down—that "We are managing our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by GBC. We have got about twenty GBCs for looking after the whole world affair, and above the GBC, I am there, and under the GBCs there are president, treasurer, secretary in each and every center. So the president is responsible to the GBC. GBC is responsible to me. In this way we are managing. But why you are proposing a separate trustee for Fiji? We have no separate trustee till now, but if for security, if it is required, you can adopt it. So this is our management going on. Now, if you have got some new idea, so please explain to me how you want to manage. But I think Fiji temple cannot be managed in a separate idea. But still, I shall entertain if you have got some idea to manage. The deed should be given to the founder-ācārya, in the name of founder-ācārya, like 'A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Founder-Ācārya, International Society.'" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The deed? Prabhupāda: The deed, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Should be . . .? *Prabhupāda: "It cannot be dedicated to any of the office*-bearers." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's one thing . . . I wanted to ask . . . Hari-śauri: Should be in there, "Founder-Ācārya." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The deed should be . . .? I wanted to clarify that earlier this afternoon . . . *Prabhupāda: "Deed should be made in favor of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, Founder-Ācārya, International Society. But it cannot be dedicated to any office*-bearer. So I suggest that you become the president of the temple and Upendra become the secretary, and either your brother or your wife can become the treasurer. There is no need of trustees. But in any circumstances, the temple cannot be a private property in the name of ISKCON. That is not possible." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "A private property in the name of ISKCON." Prabhupāda: "If you want to keep it a private property, then the ISKCON name should not be utilized." Here you have understood that he's trying to utilize ISKCON's name . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: To collect. Prabhupāda: . . . to collect, and he'll be keeper. That should be frankly disclosed, that "This is not possible." So we shall write our Upendra? No, I have already written that he should be the secretary. No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You mentioned earlier today that he was supposed to be one of the trustees, but now this is different, so . . . Prabhupāda: So we are not going to make any trustee. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, no trustee. Prabhupāda: That is wrong. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. So in this way write him, "I am very much anxious to get your clear reply to this thing." Is that all right? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: All right. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can I . . . *Prabhupāda: So many things, " push*-push-push-push ," is going on. Let it be clear. If he wants to keep it private property, then we shall withdraw ISKCON name. Let him do it privately. Hari-śauri: And he should send copies of the deeds also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Because he has not yet produced the deeds. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's what I wanted to ask, request a copy of the deed. Prabhupāda: You understand Hindi? Ṛṣi Kumāra: Not really. A little bit, but I can't follow it. Do you want me to go to India, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Wherever you find suitable. Ṛṣi Kumāra: I was thinking about going back to Los Angeles for a while, because there's good preaching to be done in Los Angeles and Laguna Beach, too. I know a lot of people there. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles or New York. New York is your old place. But you don't want to go there? Ṛṣi Kumāra: New York? I can go there, I guess, but . . . Prabhupāda: No, you can remain in Los Angeles for the time being. Ṛṣi Kumāra: Because I know a lot of people in Laguna Beach who can be preached to. I think they'd be receptive, people who are . . . Prabhupāda: Reception is everywhere if we manage nice. Ṛṣi Kumāra: And there are a lot of artists and people who have everything, and they're living in the nicest . . . that's about the nicest place to live, and they're all unhappy. My brother's living there. He's a psychiatrist, and he's beginning to understand that the more he thinks, the more confused he gets. And I've been preaching to him, and he understands. There are also a lot of devotees who aren't in the temple now. They like Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but they also could be preached to, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, preaching constantly required to keep them in balance. As soon as the balance is overloaded on the māyā side, then everything is finished. Hari-śauri: They get a bit overwhelmed sometimes. *Prabhupāda: That is possible. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very strong. But if we also become equally strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no . . . that . . . just like in the beginning, a seed sown, it requires very careful attention. Then it grows up. And when one grows a tree, then that is all right. But so long it is not a tree—it is a plant—one has to take . . . and the watering is śravaṇa*-kīrtana . Śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana . That is required. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare āropaṇa , śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana . I think, Nineteenth Chapter of Madhya-līlā . Hari-śauri: It's a very good description how the bhakti tree grows, the creeper of bhakti . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śravaṇa*-kīrtana-jale karaye secana ? Nineteenth Chapter, Madhya-līlā . "When a person receives the seed of devotional service, he should take care of it by becoming a gardener and sowing the seed in his heart. If he waters the seed gradually by the process of śravaṇa and kīrtana , hearing and chanting, the seed will begin to sprout." Prabhupāda: Is there any purport? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "To live with devotees or to live in a temple means to associate with the śravaṇa*-kīrtana process. Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution of śravaṇa-kīrtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who engaged in the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity. However, one should not falsely imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura and abandon Deity worship just to try to engage in śravaṇa-kīrtana . This is not possible for neophyte devotees. The word guru-prasāda indicates that the spiritual master is very merciful in bestowing the boon of devotional service upon the disciple. That is the best possible gift the spiritual master has to offer. Those with a background of pious life are eligible to receive life's supreme benefit, and to bestow this benefit, the Supreme Personality of Godhead sends His representative to impart His mercy. Endowed with the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the spiritual master distributes the mercy to those who are elevated and pious. Thus the spiritual master trains his disciples to render devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called gurukṛpā . It is kṛṣṇa-prasāda, Kṛṣṇa's mercy, that He sends a bona fide spiritual master to the deserving disciple. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, one meets the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of the spiritual master, the disciple is fully trained in the devotional service of the Lord. *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja means 'the seed of devotional service.' Everything has an original cause, or seed. For any idea, program, plan or device, there is first of all the contemplation of the plan, and that is called bīja , or the seed. The methods, rules and regulations by which one is perfectly trained in devotional service constitute the bhakti-latā-bīja , or seed of devotional service. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received from the spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Other seeds are called anyabhilāṣita-bīja , karma-bīja and jñāna-bīja . If one is not fortunate enough to receive the bhakti-latā-bīja from the spiritual master, he instead cultivates the seeds of karma-bīja , jñāna-bīja , or political and social or philanthropic bīja . However, bhakti-latā-bīja is different from these other bījas . Bhakti-latā-bīja can be received only through the mercy of the spiritual master. Therefore one has to satisfy the spiritual master to get bhakti-latā-bīja : yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . Bhakti-latā-bīja is the origin of devotional service. Unless one satisfies the spiritual master, he gets the bīja , or root cause, of karma , jñāna or yoga without the benefit of devotional service. However, one who is faithful to his spiritual master gets the bhakti-latā-bīja . *"This bhakti*-latā-bīja is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master. After receiving the spiritual master's mercy, one must repeat his instructions, and this is called śravaṇa-kīrtana —hearing and chanting. One who has not properly heard from the spiritual master or who does not follow the regulative principles is not fit for chanting, kīrtana . This is explained in Bhagavad-gītā : vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana (BG 2.41). One who has not listened carefully to the instructions of the spiritual master is unfit to chant or preach the cult of devotional service. One has to water the bhakti-latā-bīja after receiving instructions from the spiritual master." Prabhupāda: Jaya . Hari-śauri: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (offers obeisances) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . there were a funny man. Name was Gopal Bhan. So formerly kings, they used to keep some funny men because they are always full of anxiety, and one funny man would give them joke. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They call them jesters, court jesters. Prabhupāda: Jester. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Court jester. Prabhupāda: Yes. Court jesters, yes. So there was a man, court jesters, in Bengal. So the Muhammadan governor asked one Gopal Bhan, jester . . . he was jester in the court of Raja Krishnachandra. So he asked him, nawab, that "Gopal Bhan, I have heard that you are very expert. Can you write a similar book, *Mahābhārata*, about my kingdom?" (laughter) "Oh, yes. Why not? That is not . . ." So he took some hundred thousands of rupees and again come: "Give me another ten thousand," "Another ten," in this way. "When the book will be finished? You have taken so much money." "It is just on the verge of being finished." Then, when he saw that no more money can be taken—"I have taken so much money"—then he one day said that "Now, sir, one information is very essential. That is wanted. You give me, and the *Mahābhārata* will be finished. Everything is there." "What is that information?" "Now, your wife, how many husband she has got?" "This is nonsense!" "Eh? Well, that is the main subject matter of *Mahābhārata* . Draupadī had five husbands, so you are such a great person, your wife must have at least one dozen. Otherwise, how *Mahābhārata* will be . . .?" "It is the subject matter of?" "Yes, that is the only subject matter, that Draupadī had five husbands. So you are such a big nawab, your wife must at least have one dozen. So give me their names." So he became very angry: "Don't talk all this nonsense." "Then I cannot finish your *Mahābhārata* ." "I have already invested . . ." So he took another ten thousand rupees, and he said, "Stop all this nonsense. That's all right." So these rascals, they are writing Gopal Bhan's *Mahābhārata* , and the rascal government is paying them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are not producing anything. Prabhupāda: They'll never be able. Challenge. "That we cannot say." As soon as you say, "Make an egg," "That we cannot say." And they'll chant, "Chemical evolution, chemical evolution" and get Nobel Prize. Rascals. But how the people are so foolish that they believe in this? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oṁ ajñāna*-timirāndhasya . Without spiritual master there is nothing they can say. Prabhupāda: This is very simple. You see everything, white and yellow. Produce. Chemicals are white. Some chemicals are yellow also. Just like hydroform, it is yellow. And soda bicarb, white, or potash cyanide is white. So you have got so many chemicals. Combine and pack it in a cell, and put underneath the incubator. Why rascal do not do this? Beat them with shoes. "Rascal, you are cheating in this way." Beat them with shoes. That's all. That is the only punishment. Hari-śauri: Yeah, that's too good. Prabhupāda: Hundreds of men demand them, that "Do it; otherwise don't talk nonsense. If you talk nonsense, then we will beat you with all our shoes." Then they'll stop all this nonsense talk. There is no punishment for their cheating and taking money. Hari-śauri: That's a fact. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Your Back to Godhead article in this last magazine, "They can make a 747 jet, but not a tiny mosquito." Very thought*-provoking. *Prabhupāda: With pilot. 747, you have to pay expert pilot, but here with pilot. Make this. Simply talking. Not only mosquito: at night we see so many, just like full stop, the same mechanical, flying from here, there, from here moving. Aeroplane, exactly in the form of . . . similarly standing and . . . that is our challenge. Challenge this. Go in public meeting. Bring these so*-called scientists, "Why don't you make any . . .? Why do you talk all this nonsense and cheat people?" Simple. Why first of all Sunday? There is no Monday first. I think never this question's raised, anybody. Fool's paradise. The Western world is fool's paradise. Actually this is the time they are getting enlightenment. Otherwise they are all fool's paradise. No social life, no religious life, simply get money somehow or other and enjoy wine, women, meat. That's all. This is their civilization. Do live comfortably; there is no harm. But why misconception? Hari-śauri: At least be honest. Prabhupāda: Yes. How can you deny God? All the scientists, they deny God. This simple fact that there is . . . (break) . . . is mother, and beginning from grass to the highest form of human being there are children. The mother is there; the children are there. Who is the father? How you can say there is no father? If the mother is there, then child is there, there must be father. I do not know how they can deny a supreme father. Anyway, this New Vrindavan life will attract people gradually, this peaceful life. They are searching after alternative. Hari-śauri: Oh, yeah. In the Vedic culture did they have sheep? Sheep herds? Did they keep sheep? Prabhupāda: Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For making, you know, the wool, woolen garments like the cap and cādara. Sometimes it's made out of wool. They would get from sheep? *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, the meat*-eaters cannot be stopped. They will eat meat. So they can kill the small animals, unimportant, not cow. Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . He never said lamb- rakṣya or hog- rakṣya . (laughs) You can eat hog. If it is decided that you must eat meat, then you can eat a nonimportant animal. We have no objection. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Or at least, as you said this morning, wait until the cow dies naturally. Prabhupāda: That is another. Otherwise, if you want to kill, you kill less important animal. Hari-śauri: Chickens and rabbits. Like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. But give protection to the cow, the source of milk. Hari-śauri: In most rural districts formerly, even just sixty or seventy years ago, they used to do that. The used to keep a hog or some animals for killing. They would fatten them up and kill them. Prabhupāda: Still in India, the low class, they keep hogs for killing. And they publicly kill the hog by burning outside the village skirt. Hari-śauri: I can remember when I was a child that my grandfather, he had one pigsty. And the house that we were living in, that also had a pigsty at the back. There were no pigs by the time I came, but only just a few years before they were doing that. Prabhupāda: Why the government should keep slaughterhouse? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You asked them that in Mauritius, I remember. The government started a chicken slaughterhouse. You said, "Why the government should have slaughterhouse?" And they replied, "They will kill them anyway. There are so many Muslims." Prabhupāda said, "Let them kill, but why the government should support this slaughter?" Prabhupāda: Let them kill at their house. Especially chicken, anyone can kill. Hari-śauri: The government's idea is that "The people are going to do these activities, so we may as well cash in, make money." Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: The government, their idea is that "If they are going to do this activity, then let us make money." Prabhupāda: And as soon as I heard that prime minister went to open this, I immediately . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda didn't want to meet him. Prabhupāda: "Oh, he's a rascal." Hari-śauri: In Mauritius the prime minister opened a chicken factory. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's a Hindu, too. Prabhupāda: Immediately I gave up the idea of meeting this rascal. (break) Hari-śauri: Well, of course, they'll always try to claim . . . Prabhupāda: From our estimation it is failure. They have not gone there. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: But what is their standard of failure and success? Hari-śauri: Well, they don't . . . they're establishing a standard now. They don't have a standard. They are always going to try to claim that it is beneficial. Otherwise, if it's judged a failure, then they won't get any money. Prabhupāda: That way they are successful—in getting money. Hari-śauri: So they have to say it's a success. Just like this Mars thing. If they can land a spaceship that takes a few photographs, supposedly of Mars, then that's considered a success. Prabhupāda: Photograph you can take anywhere. Hari-śauri: Yes. Could they actually send . . .? Are they actually sending these spaceships to another planet, or . . .? Prabhupāda: That they know. According to our calculations, they have not gone. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: It is false propaganda. They cannot go. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can go on a morning walk now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can go now, if you like. (end) Conversation A -- June 29, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now what we've been doing with the dead cows is burying them. There's no . . . everything's wasted. Śrīla Prabhupāda is proposing that why not the butcher take, we give free, he simply returns us the skin of the cow, and with the cowhide we properly tan it, we can make mṛdaṅga heads for the khol , and shoes, straps, whatever may be needed. The idea being that in the Western countries especially, people are accustomed to eating animals, animal flesh. So we have no objection. Prabhupāda: Beef, especially beef. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially cows and beef. So we have no objection, but they should at least wait until it dies naturally. What is the harm? They still get the same thing, and one devotee, Kīrtanānanda, I think, was saying that when they slaughter an animal even in the slaughterhouse, it has to sit some time, some number of days before they distribute it. So I proposed that the Westerners, they consider that this is superstitious, this protection of the cow. Prabhupāda said, "Why superstitious?" The cow is providing milk. Every child knows that he's getting milk from the cow; the cow is mother. So why in the old age we should slaughter mother? Is this a good argument that like, for example, they say in India how so many people are starving, why don't they eat the cows? So Prabhupāda proposed that "So if you're starving, does it mean that you eat your mother and father?" Prabhupāda: If you want to eat, let the father and mother die, then eat. (laughter) Who has objection? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's so reasonable. It's so reasonable. At least, Prabhupāda says, for the saner section, they will accept. Hari-śauri: The thing is, people are mad after meat. Prabhupāda: Madman . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they still get it. Prabhupāda: But he'll get meat. Hari-śauri: But then their argument is that if we don't have big, big slaughterhouses, then there won't be enough supply. Prabhupāda: No why should . . .? After all, the animal is going to die. It is not for . . . he's permanently. Why should you kill? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they kill the animal first in the slaughterhouse and then do whatever they have to do. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But we are killing when they are young, when their meat is fresh. When the body is old, the meat is . . . Prabhupāda: That you have to change. Fresh or dead, you're eating flesh, that's all. You wait till the death. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But the old flesh is not . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, you do not . . . you do whatever you like. So at least you can take free of charges a dead cow from us, and you can give us only the skin, and you eat. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: This should be the system. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's so reasonable. Prabhupāda: We don't want anything from you; you take it, the whole flesh. You take free. You simply give us the skin; we can utilize it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even if people would do this, it would be such an advancement. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because a class of men will demand to eat the flesh. You cannot stop it. So we are giving free: you eat. And from economic point of view, we require the skin for our mṛdaṅga making. So give us the skin. That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda says the butcher, even, he can sell the meat cheaply, make profit. He's getting it free of charge. Hari-śauri: Maybe some time in the future this could happen when Kṛṣṇa consciousness becomes very powerful influence in the country, but unless we could actually close the slaughterhouse . . . Prabhupāda: No, but now by imploring, we are requesting him that "You can take this cow and sell in your shop, butcher shop; you give us the skin. And you can tell the customer that it is as good, it is cheaper. So whatever money you get, that is your profit. You haven't got to invest anything." Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Do you propose that we should do this now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, no, this is . . . think over. Hari-śauri: Yes, the proposition is very good, that's a fact. Prabhupāda: First of all, you try one butcher, that "Why not make this advantage?" How does he react, see. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, that he will not pay anything . . . Prabhupāda: He's not going to pay us. Simply take it and sell it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They sell meat . . . for one pound of meat, they can get sometimes two dollars, three dollars, four dollars. So much money, big cow. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But the government has inspectors, a team of inspectors. No meat can be sold unless it is inspected, and then they want to examine the condition. Prabhupāda: So let them inspect. What is the wrong there? It should be open. If the inspection, there is nothing wrong, then they can do this business. Hari-śauri: Generally, though, their inspection is when the animal is alive, they check to see that he has no disease. Then they can be killed. But if an animal dies naturally, then generally it is to be supposed that it dies from some malfunction within the body, that there may be some diseases or whatever. So then . . . Prabhupāda: That is artificial. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have so many rules. Hari-śauri: But that is their rules and regulations they have. Prabhupāda: They'll change. When they, by chemical analysis, they don't find any fault, then they can change. Devotee: They have no substance. Prabhupāda: From economic point of view, why this body should be wasted? Let it be utilized. Those that are eating, let them eat. And economic point of view, we save the skin. We require it for our purpose. That is the idea. After all, we require the skin for our khol making. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And for the farm straps? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Shoes, slippers, so many things. I think Kīrtanānanda Swami has done that with some of the cows. They have taken the hide for making the straps and the leather . . . Hari-śauri: They're not doing it now, though. Prabhupāda: But we should not do it ourselves. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, that's for the mucis. Prabhupāda: That is not our business. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Give it to the butcher. He will get the skin and give it to us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not that everything we have to do. No. That will deteriorate. Those who are doing, let it be done by them. Hari-śauri: It seems like it will be a long time before we can implement something like that. Prabhupāda: I am proposing; *think over. Because it is a fact that in spite our vigorous propaganda, we cannot stop meat*-eating. That is not possible. People will eat. So those who are eating, let us make some arrangement that "You take it free of charges." From economic point of view, they get it free. They can make good profit. And we are interested with the skin. So why not make some arrangement? It is practical. Hari-śauri: That's very good. Prabhupāda: Instead of the thing being wasted for nothing, let us devise some means, that "You are eating, you can eat." And we want the skin, let us give it. What is the wrong there? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Perfect economics. Prabhupāda: Yes. We require the skin, that's a fact. And you want to eat, all right, eat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Could such a thing be done in India today also? Prabhupāda: No, why it will be done? Everywhere it should be done. Who does not eat meat? That is the . . . first of all, you try this. From economic point of view, why one thing should be wasted? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Practical preaching. *Hari-śauri: We can't stop meat*-eating, but we can stop the unnecessary slaughter of animals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would be a great step forward. *Prabhupāda: So our business is to stop slaughter. Meat*-eating we cannot stop. Certain persons, they must eat. They are fourth-class and then fifth-class men. There are four classifications— brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra and caṇḍāla . Caṇḍālas , they will remain, and they are eating. So let them eat meat. That is the system in India still. It is not that in India nobody's eating meat. The cobbler class, they eat; the caṇḍāla class, they eat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even cows, cow flesh. Prabhupāda: Dead. This cow killing has been introduced by these Britishers. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Christian philosophy. Prabhupāda: Christians. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I saw in Juhu the Christians. Hari-śauri: Now even they're exporting beef from India. Prabhupāda: Yes. They can do anything, take the dead cows. I do not know if there is any chemical composition change. They are eating so many dead animals. Take for fish. The fish is never killed alive, because as soon as you take it out from water, it is dead, after few minutes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And they don't consider if it's a young fish or an old fish. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: If that was the system, people will not get sick. They will not get sick from eating old animals. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is all wrong conception. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will say . . . simply think the taste there is too tough, the skin may be older. Prabhupāda: They are eating so many rotten things. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. And they are burning it, cooking it. Prabhupāda: Lobster, it is simply pus. They eat. I've seen it. From whiteness it has become yellow, puslike. They eat it, what is called that soup? Lobster soup? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Clam chowder. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: So many things. Prabhupāda: But they like very much that lobster soup. In the plane, one Englishman was doing, "What is this? I asked after lobster soup." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In England? Oysters? Prabhupāda: No, lobsters. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With the big pinchers. Hari-śauri: They have big, long feelers. They get the lobsters sometimes alive, and they throw them in boiling water, and they can hear them screaming. But now they're speculating whether it's actually the lobsters screaming because it's being boiled alive or whether it's just air that's coming out from its body and making a squeaking noise. Prabhupāda: No, that is, apart from that, they import lobster from India, Cochin. They are exporting lobster alive. I have seen. The same ship, they load it with lobster, fatty, and black creeper, and cashew, they exported. The big, big business firms for exporting. So these lobster, although they are kept in ice and so on, so on, they become decomposed. I've seen in the port, that Commonwealth Pier. There is store of lobster, and the lobster has become yellow and almost melted by decomposing. They are selling that. Hari-śauri: When it starts to fall apart, that's when they consider it's the best. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: When it starts to fall apart, that's when they think it's the best. I think I mentioned before, in England, the gentry, the British gentry, when they used to go hunting, shooting pheasants and partridges, afterwards they would get the dead birds and hang them in a shed outside, and then after some days, when all the skin and the feathers were literally falling off, that's when they would eat it. That's when it was considered rich. Prabhupāda: There are so many kadarya things. In Burma, they have got a system, Burmese family. In the door, there is a pot, a big pot. So whatever animal dies, put it there and cover it. So in this way, after some years, they're decomposed, and it becomes liquid, and then it is so decomposed that if you open it, even three miles they smell. So that is mature. Then they take out the liquid and keep it in bottle. That is called naphi . And they stock it, and when there is some feast at home they'll give little that naphi and they'll relish it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Barbers? Prabhupāda: Burma. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Burma. That's the most . . . Prabhupāda: And when you fry lucī , all the other tenants will come, "What you are cooking?" This is practical because we opened . . . my Guru Mahārāja opened a branch in Burma in an apartment. So that Gaurāṅga who was my servant in family life, he was there. He said like this, that "When I fry purī , the ghee smell is there, so many people will come from other apartments, (whispers) 'Oh, what you are cooking? What you are cooking?' " And the naphi , they relish it in feast. So it is a question of taste. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's the ultimate. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I remember as a child in Hong Kong, in the village they would keep big glass jars with snakes, they would put the snakes in jars. And after they were many times soaking in liquid, then they would eat it. Hari-śauri: Pickled snakes. Prabhupāda: Snake. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, keep it in a jar in liquid. Prabhupāda: They put in the jar alive? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No, they catch it, kill it, put it in the jar. Hari-śauri: It's like a pickle. They pickle it. And when they want to eat it, they take. Prabhupāda: So there is poison in the mouth, they cut it? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They cut off the head. Flesh. Prabhupāda: Snake they eat. Even in India there is a class, they eat snake . . . (indistinct) . . . Chinese, they eat. They are Chinese? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. Hong Kong. Prabhupāda: They eat anything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So many abominable things. Hari-śauri: Someone was telling me in Mexico they have a sandwich called tortilla. It has live cockroaches. And as they're eating, the cockroaches are running to get out of the sandwich, and they are pushing them back in and eating it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Africa also they eat live bugs. Cockroaches, dead or alive, anything. Once when we were in Zambia, there was this one African who was cleaning around the house, his name was David. He was about twenty years old. So we swept up his room because it was so filthy—I was there at the time. And there were all these cockroaches in a pile, and we were about to throw them out and he said, "What? You're throwing them out? You mean you're not going to eat them?" (laughter) Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Even . . . (indistinct) . . . there was one big, big professor we met in the college . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's hard to understand that prasādam is . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Not only the Africans, but this big, big professor, she is advocating that people should eat the bugs because they are good protein. She is experimenting different bugs to eat—the worm, the cockroach, the beetle—and she's making a big study, being paid money, how to feed people by eating insects. *Hari-śauri: They're already doing that. In France, you can buy cans of chocolate*-coated ants. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Grasshoppers too. Hari-śauri: Grasshoppers, frog's legs, bumblebees, fried bumblebees you can get. The French eat the most abominable foodstuff. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The English think that way, anyway. Hari-śauri: They all do. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The English think the French eat abominable foods. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: This is the modes of nature, Śrīla Prabhupāda, acting. Prabhupāda: Kadarya bhakṣaṇa . Hari-śauri: It's difficult to imagine what kind of fate we would have had if you hadn't come and started this movement. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everything is so scientific. We've seen practically that as people take up this chanting, that gradually they lose their taste for every other kind of eating. It's a fact. (devotees offer obeisances and prepare to leave) (pause) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I should inform Kīrtanānanda Swami about some of these ideas? Prabhupāda: Yes, if you can arrange with the butcher. Hari-śauri: One thing, the other day they were saying that sometimes when they have this skim milk, and there's some excess after they've fed it to the cows, they throw it away, they use it for fertilizer. Should they do that? Is that all right to use that? Prabhupāda: No. Oh, no. We can use it. Hari-śauri: The skim milk, after they've . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? Explain. Hari-śauri: They have some skim milk. So when they've finished giving it to the devotees and they've finished giving it to the cows, then if there's any extra, they throw it away. Prabhupāda: How give it to the cows? Hari-śauri: They feed it to the cows. Prabhupāda: They eat? Hari-śauri: They drink it. They put it in their feed, whatever. But then if there's any extra, they throw it away, they put on the . . . mix it with fertilizer or whatever for the land. Prabhupāda: It should not be given to the cows. It should be kept, and when it is broken, you get the chānā . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Curd, is it? Hari-śauri: It should be made into curd and yogurt, things like that. Prabhupāda: Yes, not yogurt; chānā , what you call, curd? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like cheese, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Cheese, yes? But it should not be thrown. From cheese you can make so many preparations. Hari-śauri: I'll mention it to Kulādri then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned also about the whey that you get. Prabhupāda: Everything should be utilized. Instead of drinking water, you can drink whey. It is very good for digesting. Whey, put little salt and black pepper, it is good digestant. You can avoid water, drink whey. You can use it for cāpāṭi . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Making dough? Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi , just like you dip the cāpāṭi in ḍāl , you can dip whey. You can save ḍāl preparing expenditure. Nothing of milk product can be wasted. You should learn it. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's what I thought. That's why I was asking. Prabhupāda: Up to the last drop, it can be utilized. Hari-śauri: Everything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Skim milk should not be given to the calves? The calves should get? Prabhupāda: They don't require it. They don't require it. The cow is especially meant for the human being. They can utilize in so many ways, and they should give protection, such an important animal. This is human being. (end) Conversation A -- June 30, 1976, Wheeling WV *(Mike Darby was a long*-time admirer of Prabhupāda and was well-informed about Kṛṣṇa consciousness) Mike Darby: . . . don't need education, then, to . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. We are coming from Detroit? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Detroit, Toronto. *Prabhupāda: There are so many factories for four*-wheel vehicles, and there is no factory to educate man to the right path. Perhaps . . . this is our little attempt, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to educate to the right path. We are not getting any help, either from the authority . . . in our own way, as far as possible, we are doing. When people will be educated they will be able to understand who is guru , who is not guru . We can say, but who is going to accept? We say always that they are all rascals, but who will accept our statement? And the state, there had been a department to see what is the qualification of guru , then immediately they would have taken steps. Just like in Kṛṣṇa's time one man falsely presented himself as God, immediately his head was cut off. Pauṇḍraka. So the state must be very strong to punish the miscreant. But there is no such state. Mike Darby: This man, Sun Myung Moon, claims to be the Messiaḥ, the Jesus Christ revived. *Prabhupāda: So it is the duty of the Christians. But they are also . . . what can I say? They are passing resolution according to the time, changing the instruction of Bible. How they can be fixed*-up? Our standard is Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . We accept guru as representative of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he speaks what Kṛṣṇa has spoken, then he is guru . Similarly in Christianity, if they actually take care that whether one is speaking according to the Ten Commandments, if he is living according to the rules and regulations of the Ten Commandments, then he is guru . Now why people accept them? Because they are in ignorance; they do not know who is real and who is fake. But the standard is there. Take for example in the Bible, it is said: "Thou shall not kill." But everyone is killing. Killing is the business of the Christians. They are maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. We are maintaining cows here, and there are others, they are maintaining cows for slaughtering. Why? In these Commandments it is clearly said that "Thou shall not kill." How they will detect? If they are violating themselves the law one, how they will punish the lawbreaker? "Physician, heal thyself." The physician himself is diseased, and he's going to treat other patients. Mike Darby: So they all just continue in a circle to break their own laws. Prabhupāda: What can be done? Mike Darby: Would it help if someone took the Bible and wrote a Vaiṣṇava purport, or tried to simplify it so that people could understand it? The language is difficult for the common man now to understand. *Prabhupāda: That we are spreading. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that you act what Kṛṣṇa, or God, says, that's all. In our Bhagavad*-gītā the guru's description is there, who is guru . Read the Fourth Chapter. Our this all literature, simply guru and disciple: one is instructing, and one is hearing. Hari-śauri: From 4.1? *"The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun*-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu, in turn, instructed it to Ikṣvāku." *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa instructed first to the sun-god. Sun*-god instructed his son, Manu; he instructed his son, Ikṣvāku. In this way things are coming. Then read second verse. Hari-śauri: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost." Prabhupāda: The succession was broken. So similarly, Christ says something. So if that commandment is received by succession, then it goes nicely. But if you break it according to your necessity, then where is the authority? Mike Darby: None. No use if you have the rules there, the law is there, to be passed, and someone forgets them. This is sinful. Prabhupāda: No, they are passing resolution. Suppose there is a law of the state, ordinary, say: "Keep to the right," and in this village all members, they assemble together and pass a resolution that, "No, keep to the left." Will it be accepted? Even they pass resolution, the state will not accept it. Unless it is . . . of course, there should be no change. By anything spoken by God or His son or His representative, that cannot be changed. It is not that Christ said two thousand years ago, "Thou shall not kill," now it can be changed. That is rascaldom. They are doing that. If you do that, then, as it is said here, then it becomes lost. Then there is no meaning. If we take the instruction of God and His representative as temporary, then he is not representative, He is not God. Whatever is spoken by God and His representative, that is eternal. You cannot change by your whims. But that is going on. We . . . I do not wish to discuss very much, but that is actually going on. As people they, by votes in the Parliament, they pass any nonsense thing, so they want to do that in the case of Bible also. Then where is the authority of Bible? If Christ says that, "Thou shall not kill," and if people, say ten thousand people in a meeting, pass resolution, "No, this is wrong," then where is the authority of Bible? Then you become authority. Mike Darby: I see. Then in the Bible, the beginning of it says that God created the heaven and the earth, and yet they say, give the description in Genesis, as the way God created the heaven and the earth. Does this not conform with Brahmā's work? *Prabhupāda: Yes. God has created everything. Just like father, son and the mother. Mother gives birth to the son when the mother is impregnated by the father. This is the law, everyone knows. Now you can see that so many trees are coming from earth. Is it not? Trees and plants and grass. And we eat them, we live. Therefore the earth is mother, and the children are so many. The plants are about two million types of plants. Jalajā nava lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa*-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). Then there are insects, reptiles, then beasts, then man. In this way there are so many living entities. The living entities are produced from the earth. The earth is the mother and the living entities are the sons. Then where is the father? This simple thing, why do they not inquire, "Who is the father?" Mike Darby: Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa, God, or whatever you speak, there must be father. You cannot say that these children, the offsprings, are coming automatically. Then you are a fool if you say like that. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this verse: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fourteenth Chapter. Hari-śauri: Yeah, I've got it. *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Prabhupāda: So how can I deny God? How can you deny your father? If you say: "I've not seen my father," that does not mean that you have no father. Ask your mother, she will reply, "Yes, you have your father." So the argument is forwarded that, "We cannot see God, therefore there is no God." This rascal argument is being forwarded. Because you are speaking, you are existing, there must be father. That is conclusion. Without father, there would have been no possibility of your existence. You are speaking, talking so loudly, "There is no God." This is going on. "Because I do not see God, therefore there is no God." Mike Darby: So many people call themselves Christians, they still try to deny God. *Prabhupāda: Not only Christians, the whole world is now like that. Religion has become a subject matter of laughing. If one is God conscious, religious, he is considered fool number one, not very much advanced. Especially the scientists, the rascal scientists. And they'll bluff you in so many ways that, "Life is produced from chemical." And when we challenge them that, "You make a little egg with chemicals and put it in the incubator and let life come," what will be the answer? The so*-called scientist who says that life is made by combination of chemicals? Anyone can see the composition of egg—a little white and yellow substance. There are many chemicals, they are all white, and there are many chemicals yellow also. Combine together and put it in the incubator and see whether chicken is coming or not. And still they will assert, write big, big books that, "Life is coming out of chemicals." And people are accepting this bluff. So it is very precarious condition of the present world. People want to be bluffed, and there are many bluffers. And they are satisfied that, "I am bluffed by a big bluffer." That's all. This is going on. Mike Darby: These scientists speak about making life with chemicals, yet none of them have even been able to begin their experiments. They can . . . Prabhupāda: I have therefore said: "Make a small egg, then talk of big, big things." Mike Darby: They can make one chemical which leaves the life. But not more. Prabhupāda: Not only that. If you are a sane man, you analyze your body. Now find out where is life. Beginning analysis is the breathing. You take . . . now a man is dead. Somebody says: "Now, because his breathing is stopped, therefore he is dead." So what is this breathing? It is simply a little air. So put some machine, and the air may come and go and give him life. Take anything, breathing, then you take blood, then you take skin, then you take muscle, then you take bone, then take your stool, urine, find out life. Is it possible? Then why do you say that life is combination of chemical? You take this blood, urine and stool, what is called, bone and muscle and air, what is combination, and produce another man. So they are talking this nonsense, and nonsense people are accepting. And they are being paid for, high salary, for talking this nonsense at the cost of the taxpayer. Mike Darby: They get big profit, and no one else does. Prabhupāda: And they are going to the moon planet, Mars planet, and bringing some dust. Mike Darby: They try to keep the people busy by showing them other planets. Prabhupāda: Yes. But busy means they can show all these bluff busy program to the rascals, not to the sane man. Mike Darby: Could you tell us a little about your spiritual master's life? I've never heard anything. Prabhupāda: This is spiritual master—one who is representative of God. And one who speaks what God has said, then he's spiritual master. Mike Darby: But I have never heard anything of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta, and I wondered if you would tell me a little bit about him, if you would. Prabhupāda: What shall I say? He was my spiritual master, and whatever he taught, we are speaking, that's all. We don't talk any nonsense. Mike Darby: Then that's all I have to ask you. Thank you for allowing me your time. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mike Darby: I've waited very long to see you. Prabhupāda: Thank you for your coming. (end) Conversation A -- July 1, 1976, New Vrindaban, USA Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His last questions are like this. He's asking about proselytizing in the Western countries, preaching. Is there any hope for preaching? He says Hindu dharma, like this. I think everything is arising because of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement and Your Divine Grace's preaching work. Otherwise, they were all sleeping. Hari-śauri: Ten years ago, if they'd have asked these questions before you came to the West, they wouldn't even have thought about going to the West. They are only asking that now because they can see in the last ten years we've been so much successful. *Prabhupāda: They do not know what is bhakti, what is Vedānta. They do not know. Simply aspiring, all after women and money, that's all. First*-class rogues. I know all of them, all first-class rogues, after money and women, beginning from Vivekananda. But they are so popular, if you say openly . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Satyaṁ brūyāt priyaṁ brūyāt mā brūyāt satyam apriyam (Sanskrit Proverb). "You can speak truth, but don't speak which is unpalatable." But we speak in a different way. And directly we don't speak. People will be angry. They're already fools and rascals. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of the others are trying to make some compromise. Prabhupāda: That is also bad. How we can make compromise? Here is gold, here is iron. How you can compromise? Can we accept iron as gold? "All right, let us accept." (laughs) Where is the possibility? Hari-śauri: They don't see that clearly. They are looking at their iron and thinking it's gold. *Prabhupāda: They are seeing . . . they're tested. I don't make any compromise. All my speaking is also no compromise. Here is guru , here is Kṛṣṇa, here is God, here is Vedānta. Real version they neglect, and they stick to the rascal's version, Śaṅkara's version, Śārīraka*-bhāṣya . All over India, they are reading Śārīraka-bhāṣya . Hari-śauri: Rāmānujācārya is very well known in India, so why don't they read his commentary? Prabhupāda: They hate Rāmānujācārya, because he's Vaiṣṇava. Hari-śauri: Because he doesn't allow them to speculate. *Prabhupāda: He is very strict. He is a stubborn enemy of Śaṅkarācārya. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas . Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, declare it: māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa ( CC Madhya 6.169). "If you hear the interpretation of Māyāvādīs, then you are doomed. You have no hope for spiritual advancement." This is the statement. Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa . Finished. Your spiritual life is finished. You can write this also, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction is strictly to avoid the so-called Vedāntists. (indistinct background discussion as devotees look for pen) Hari-śauri: All these impersonalists, they always represent themselves as being big Vedāntists. They don't know anything. That, erm . . . Prabhupāda: And people, leaders of India, they are thinking, "Where is this Vedāntist?" In foreign countries, what is their position? *Hari-śauri: Somehow or another, they seem to think that the Vedānta is something better than any of the other śāstra . Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam doesn't seem to be so popular in India as Vedānta or something like that. *Prabhupāda: It is very popular amongst the Māyāvāda people. You speak also . . . now the so*-called Vedāntists, they are speaking on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , distorting. Akhoyananda . . . Akandananda, Karpatri, the rascals. Because they have no subject matter to speak, they are distorting the meaning of Bhāgavata . (pause) Prabhupāda: This boy (referring to Mike Darby) appears to be nice, this fat boy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kīrtanānanda said he's the only local boy that has taken interest. He's from hereabouts. Prabhupāda: He said that "I've wanted to see you since a long time." So, keep friendship with. Giving them prasādam ? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he took. They distributed . . . Kīrtanānanda Swami cut up some watermelon, and we distributed it to the guests. (pause) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, shall I lock this up? Prabhupāda: Hmm. (end) Arrival -- July 2, 1976, Washington D.C. (in car from airport) Prabhupāda: . . . live? Is he finished, or if somewhere he is still living, nobody knows. You are keeping his memorial, but where is the actual person, they do not know. Suppose I have come here, and all of a sudden I go away, keeping my shirt and coat. And if you worship my shirt and coat and do not take care where I have gone, is that very good intelligence? Bṛṣākapi: No, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: This is going on. Bṛṣākapi: We will worship your shirt and coat, though. Prabhupāda: Lincoln, if you worship . . . where is Lincoln's temple? In Paris, I saw one park, Napoleon Bonaparte. You have been there? Rūpānuga: Yes, Paris. Prabhupāda: They identified "Napoleon is France." France is there, but where is Napoleon? They do not consider like this. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ ( SB 7.5.31). Blind man be happy that Lincoln was here, that's all. Where he is now? Or he's finished. If he's finished, why you are worshiping his shirt and coat? What is the answer? What is their answer? If he's finished, what is the use of worshiping his shirt and coat? Vipina: They say that what he accomplished, although it may not be the final answer, it was a step forward, and therefore he should be worshiped. *Prabhupāda: Then his worship must be . . . that means after furnishing he is also finished? That is ignorance. That is not the fact. If he's finished, then what was the purpose of furnishing? There are so many questions in this connection, but they cannot understand. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). This is ignorance. This kind of civilization is civilization of darkness. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. Rūpānuga: It looks like the devotees are the only people who are enlightened in this dark world. By your mercy, only the devotees can actually see anything properly and understand the condition. Prabhupāda: In Russia, that Kruschev, he was . . . now, where he has gone, nobody knows. Finished. Nobody knows. Hari-śauri: They retired him. They gave him a small place just outside Moscow. Prabhupāda: You know that? Hari-śauri: Yes, there was a story about five years after he got kicked out of office. He was just doing nothing, living by himself. Prabhupāda: And what he has done? (laughter) Nothing, and what he has done? Bṛṣākapi: They want to worship Kṛṣṇa, but they don't know how. *Prabhupāda: They don't want to worship anyone. They want to worship their senses, that's all. Sense gratification. What is dictated by the senses, they agree, that's all. Servant of the senses. In the material world nobody worships nobody. Everyone serves his own senses, "I like it." That's all. There is a Bengali song, cokhe yadi lage bhalo keno dekhbo na "If it satisfies my eyes, why shall I not see? I shall see." This is the sum*-substance of . . . cokhe yadi lage bhalo keno dekhbo na. Everyone wants sense gratification, to be servant of the senses. If the senses want "Do this," he will do it. And our Movement is that we shall not hear the dictation of the senses, we shall do what Kṛṣṇa says. That is just opposite. So long I am carrying out the orders of the senses, then I am involved in this material birth, death, transmigration. Today I am running on this nice car. Next I can stand up here as a tree. Who can check it? After death you are completely under the . . . your life also completely under the laws of nature. So there is no discussion, no understanding, no knowledge about this. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to change our body. What kind of body we are going to get, nobody knows. "This life is everything. This body is everything." Very risky. They do not inquire even wherefrom this body has come. They are also coming. They are also living. They are also eating. The trees, they are also eating water. Vipina: Our distributors were in the airport not long ago, and they distributed a book to a man who has just recently written a book called The Fourth Kingdom . And he stopped off to visit our temple and talk with us, because he was impressed with the devotees and the literature, and he would like to come and speak to you. Prabhupāda: You have arranged some engagement? *Vipina: Yes. If it's all right with you, he'll come. He's very nice, but he has some mixed*-up ideas. *Prabhupāda: Everyone has mixed*-up ideas because nobody is properly trained up. Some ideas they have got, inquiries they have got. But unless one comes to the right person, he cannot be enlightened. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore one must approach the proper guru . Rūpānuga: Everyone has accepted the wrong authority. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rūpānuga: Everyone has accepted the wrong authority. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he's misled by sense gratification, so even he approaches a guru , if the guru cannot satisfy his senses, he doesn't like. Because he's under the subjugation of senses, he expects that guru also will satisfy his senses, then he is guru . If guru says something against his sense gratification, "Ah, he is not guru ." (laughs) Guru also must be a person who can satisfy your senses. The disease is sense gratification. Vipina: After he took those books home and he read them, he wrote us a letter, and he said he thought you were very intelligent man and would like to speak to you. So we'll see. Maybe he can hear. Prabhupāda: Yes, we are speaking something not of this world, but we are pointing out the defects of this world. "This world" means the world of sense gratification. Bṛṣākapi: The karmīs , they say: "What is the matter with sense gratification?" They say they like sense gratification; it's very good. Prabhupāda: Very good, but if you can continue it. But you rascal, you cannot continue it. "Very good, I am now president," but why you are kicked out? Huh? Now, what about the Nixon? Very good, he was president, now he's kicked out, what is his position? He doesn't think that, that "I may be kicked out from my position at any moment. So what is the value of my sense gratification?" He was gratifying his senses. As he liked, he was doing. But now he's kicked out, what he can do now? Why does he not think that? Take the, I mean, living example. Who wants to be kicked out from the presidency? But now he's kicked out. He's living also. He's not in that position. That Kruschev, he's not in that position. Why does he not think that, "Any moment I'll be kicked out." And what is that enforcement that kicks out? Bṛṣākapi: Why don't they think like that, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Hari-śauri: That's due to too much sinful activity? Too much sinful activity, that they can't think that there's some divine influence? *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no education. Fools. They're childish. A child is playing, he's enjoying, but he does not know that he has to take education, he has to grow up, he'll become a young man. Sometimes, if he's not educated, he'll suffer. He doesn't know. He's playing, that's all. The father says: "My dear child, you read." "No, I like playing." "All right." Similarly, they are childish, foolish, without any responsibility. The animals are doing like that. Ṛṣabhadeva says: "No, no, no. This life is not for this purpose." Nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). Simply for sense gratification so much trouble, like hogs and dogs—this is not life. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvam . Just practice austerity to purify your existence. Your existence is not purified. You are put in a position. If you like, that's all right. But because you are not in a purified position, you'll be kicked out at any moment. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). You are very proud to have your position, but nature will kick you out at any moment. But you cannot do anything. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate. He's foolish. He's thinking, "I have everything. I can remain in this presidential position as I like." That is not the position. That is foolishness; that is childish. He does not know what is his position. But he wants position. That means there is a good position for him, but not here. That he does not know. Everyone is hankering after good position, but where is that good position, that he does not know. Everyone is hankering after water, but he is going after water in the desert. That is animalism. The animal runs after the water in the desert, and a human being, he knows, "No, this is not water; this is reflection." The water is there, that's a fact, but not here. That is human . . . it is reflection of water. Reflection water means the water is there, but it is not here. Similarly, good position is there, but not here. Here it is simply a reflection of that position. That he does not understand. Where is the actual water, wherefrom the reflection comes, that he does not know. Falsely thinking that, "Here is everything." Very big, big scientists, they are thinking only on this planet there is life, and all planets are vacant. Too lazy, late. Bṛṣākapi: They all think like that, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: They are such rascals. They have no common sense that this is also one of the planets, it is filled up with life and everything, and why the other planets should be vacant? If there is rock and sand, then why not other things? Here is also rock and sand and other things also. But these rascals, they think there is simply rock and sand, nothing else. And they are misleading. What is the reason? This planet is filled up with life, and other planets vacant. All right, they can go and colonize there. They say it is not possible. Then why do you go there, spend money? This is going on. Vipina: Prabhupāda, these . . . nobody wants to do the wrong thing. Nobody wants to go up . . . Prabhupāda: They are doing wrong thing every moment. Vipina: Yes, but I mean no one works to do the wrong thing; they work to do the right thing. Prabhupāda: But they'll not take the right thing. If you say the right thing, they will come to beat you with shoes, run away. Hari-śauri: They don't have any idea what the right thing is. Everything they're doing is wrong. Prabhupāda: They want right thing, but they have no idea of right thing. And if you say the right thing, they will not accept it. This is their disease. Rūpānuga: That is more than māyā ; that is their heart. Prabhupāda: That is called māyā . Rūpānuga: That is māyā . Prabhupāda: Yes. They are suffering, and if you give him the remedy that he'll not have to suffer, he'll not take it. Rūpānuga: But that rejection, that is their choice of the heart, isn't it? I mean, they have a choice to make? Prabhupāda: No, no. That is the same thing. Just the child is playing, but if you say: "My dear child, you please take education, otherwise you'll suffer," "Oh, I don't . . ." Child does not like. He wants to play. That is childish, or foolish. Rūpānuga: He doesn't want to be educated. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This human life is meant for becoming educated about Brahman. They will not take it. They want to remain animals, eating and sleeping. This animal life, that's all. Eat nicely, sleep nicely, have sex life nicely, defend nicely, that's all. Nicely, according to the standard of the body. Here in America, to have a conveyance nicely like a car like this, but in Indian village, a bullock cart is nicely. So this nicely and that nicely, according to the body. You have got this American body, this is nicely. He has got Indian body, that is nicely. But the feeling of niceness is there and here. We are having sex in a very nice apartment, decorated and so on, so on, and a dog is having sex on the street. But the pleasure of sex life is both the same. But we are thinking this is nice. But that is not the fact. The niceness, the feelings of niceness, is there and here. Vipina: And so much suffering. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply you have to take so much trouble. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja's instruction. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām (SB 7.6.3). The sense gratification, the standard of sense gratification, is deha-yogena dehinām , according to the body. The pig is eating very nicely stool because he has got a body like that. A human being will not take that. But the pleasure of eating, either stool or rasagullā , the same. Rūpānuga: You gave the example of a gold pot and an iron pot and a diamond pot. A diamond pot was a demigod, and the gold pot was a human being, and the iron pot the animal. But they are thinking that the food is more palatable in a different pot. But it is still the same food. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: But they are simply interested with the pots. External. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye . . . (SB 7.5.31). They are thinking by changing the pot the advancement of civilization will increase. And that is going on. Just like the America. You have got very big, big roads, nice cars, everything. You are changing the pot, but the eatable is the same. Vipina: I heard a nice example given the other day about how the living entities are suffering. A black widow, male and female black widow spiders, have sex life. After the sex life the female spider consumes the male spider, eats him alive. Prabhupāda: What's that? Spider. Vipina: Black widow. She will eat him after sex, kill him. Prabhupāda: (laughs) So we are also killing by and by, and she kills immediately. That is the difference. Vipina: Yes, little by little. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Tulasī dāsa has said that. Din kā dakinī rāt kā bāghinī pālak pālak rahu cuṣe, duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhagilipu sei , that there is an animal who is at daytime a witch and at nighttime she's tigress. So her only business is to suck the blood. But people are so mad that everyone keeping that tigress. Duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhagini . Every home, there is a tigress like that. Hari-śauri: That's their wife. Rūpānuga: Their best friend. Prabhupāda: (laughs) At daytime, witch, and nighttime, tigress. This is her picture. But people know it, and still, they keep one tigress at home. Duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhag . . . so that lady spider and lord spider, that is everywhere. But here gradually, and they are immediately. That is the difference. The process is the same. People want to enjoy by sex, by seminal discharge, but what is this? His blood. By fifteen drops of blood, or something like that, one drop of semina is created. Rūpānuga: Forty drops of blood, one drop of semina. *Prabhupāda: Forty drops. Yes. So one ounce of semina discharge means forty ounce of blood sucked. This is a fact. So he is enjoying his own blood, and he's thinking, "I am enjoying." Therefore he's compared with the camel. Śva*-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Camel eats the thorny twigs, and the thorns pricks the tongue and blood comes out. So after twig is mixed with blood, it becomes tasteful, and he thinks thorn is very nice. (laughs) So thorn is not nice; nice is his blood, own blood. But he, because he's animal, he's thinking it is very nice. Vipina: So many people that run their life that way, they realize that, "This woman is not making me happy. She's making me work, and I'm miserable, and I don't like it," but they keep on. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore he's described as mad, bhora. Bhora means mad. Duniya sab bhorakhobe gare gare bhagini . Vipina: We're almost there, Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: In the heavenly planets the woman is described that during summer they are very warm, the body is very warm, and during winter . . . er . . . summer the body is very cool of the woman, and during summer the body is cool and during winter the body is very warm. That is the nature of the woman in heavenly planets. And their breast is very, very tight and strongly built. And their youthfulness never diminishes. These are the description of the heavenly woman. Bhāgavata , everything is there. Mohinī*-mūrti began to play on the balls, and the description of the breast is there and . . . what is called this portion? Hari-śauri: Armpit. Prabhupāda: Armpit. Yes. So she was playing ball one hand, and one hand a bunch of hair would become, immediately she was taking care. So with this beauty Lord Śiva become mad. As soon as one man sees the breast and this armpit of young woman, then he is finished. (laughs) Vipina: So what happens to us? Prabhupāda: It is every man that this is the position. This is the position. And so long we will be charmed with these things, he has to take birth again and again. Viṣayināṁ saṁdarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca. Vipina: This is the property, Prabhupāda. Excuse me. This is your home, and the devotees are here for you. Hari-śauri: I can lock it now if you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Bṛṣākapi: Would you like some warm milk, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. Rūpānuga: This is for your servants. Push the button, they hear in the back. Vipina: Cold water for you, here, Prabhupāda. Cold water here if you want some. Prabhupāda: Cold water. Hari-śauri: They are bringing some hot milk, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Vipina: Also something interesting about this water, Prabhupāda. It's all natural spring water, it's not city water. Underground water, fresh water. Rūpānuga: It's quiet here. Prabhupāda: It is nice. Bṛṣākapi: There's a swimming pool here, Prabhupāda. You have a garden by the pool, you can take your massage there. Prabhupāda: This is your own house? What you have paid for it? *Rūpānuga: Well, now we are leasing with option to buy. We have ten*-year lease. We can purchase anytime before ten years. Prabhupāda: Price is fixed? Rūpānuga: Six hundred fifty thousand. But all money paid for rent goes toward purchase. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Rūpānuga: How much a month? *Vipina: Right around now, it's about twenty*-five hundred, and it will average that for ten years. At the end of ten years, it will drop to like twenty-two, twenty-one, which is . . . it will be worth much more in ten years. It's very good. And he also is responsible . . . the owner is responsible for any major malfunctions in any equipment on the property. We just had your water pump replaced for six hundred dollars, and he had to pay because of our contract. Rūpānuga: It is an exceptional arrangement. Bṛṣākapi: No interest. Prabhupāda: How many rooms? Bṛṣākapi: Several buildings, Prabhupāda. We have one big temple building down there, very gorgeous, with big kitchen. Prabhupāda: I may see now? Rūpānuga: If you like. Prabhupāda: Or it is closed. Rūpānuga: Deities are resting. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Rūpānuga: In the morning I think it would be better to see things. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bṛṣākapi: We can walk on the property. Prabhupāda: Morning walk. Rūpānuga: Jaya . Vipina: The kitchen is governmentally approved, so that if we decide to have a big festival, we can cook and distribute publicly without any problems. Prabhupāda: These furnitures were there? Rūpānuga: No, this is all we have purchased. Bṛṣākapi: For you, Prabhupāda. Rūpānuga: The doors also, lights—everything we have purchased. Prabhupāda: Oh. You had to utilize so much money. Rūpānuga: But this is Washington, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Everything . . . this neighborhood is one of the most wealthy neighborhoods in the country. It is very big. We did not think we would be able to get in so easy. But now the people are appreciating how we have fixed up the property, so they have accepted us into the community. But it is very wealthy. You will see some of the new houses being built. Prabhupāda: They have seen our books? Rūpānuga: I don't know. Have you made some . . .? Well, basically we've been just getting them used to us. We have not approached them so much, because we've only been here a short time. How long have we been here altogether? Bṛṣākapi: Four months. Three to four months. Rūpānuga: In four months, they have transformed this. Prabhupāda: That's good. This wooden wall was there? Vipina: Yes. We refinished them. Bṛṣākapi: It was all dirty. Prabhupāda: It was not used. Rūpānuga: It was simply for office, like that. And the temple building was a gymnasium. It used to be a gymnasium, and we have converted the whole thing. Vipina: That was one reason that we were very much attracted to the property. The property itself was not very beautiful when we came, but the gym was built, and we saw it as an immediate temple where we could hold kīrtana and preach. So we then made a contract, and the fish bit. Prabhupāda: Nobody was taking it. Vipina: No one was taking it. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Our Detroit property is like that. Rūpānuga: White elephant. Prabhupāda: Nobody was taking, but it was quite suitable for us. And that is the finest property. You have seen it? Rūpānuga: I have not been there. I have seen photographs. Bṛṣākapi: I have seen it. Prabhupāda: Is it not? Bṛṣākapi: It is the finest, the finest. Prabhupāda: And we have got very cheap. One room will cost three hundred thousand, it is so costly. They said they spent about two millions dollars fifty years ago. Vipina: Fifty years ago. That's ten, twenty million now. Prabhupāda: But nobody was taking. Vipina: Haribol Narottama. Narottama: Hot milk. And there is fruit, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There is fruit also. (devotee enters; offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: Come on. Jaya . (pause) Prabhupāda: You take. That's all. What is this? Devotee: Kiwi from New Zealand. (Prabhupāda is eating during the conversation) Vipina: Those are Narottama's rasagullās over there, Prabhupāda. Narottama's rasagullā . Hari-śauri: He's learned how to make Indian sweets very expertly. He was making them in Detroit. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Bṛṣākapi: Jaya , Prabhupāda. That's wonderful, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where he is going now? Hari-śauri: Ready to arrange the luggage. Vipina: This is real prasādam distribution. Prabhupāda: Very nice. (Prabhupāda continues to eat) Vipina: Those are melons, Prabhupāda. Watermelons, sweet melons. They are the best. Prabhupāda: I take America as my fatherland. India is motherland, and here is fatherland. (laughs) So many fathers. My father was very affectionate to me. He would do everything for me. I lost one father, I have got so many fathers. Vipina: Jaya . We'd like to keep it that way, Prabhupāda. If you'd let us, we'd like to keep it that way. Bṛṣākapi: We want to take care of you forever, Prabhupāda. Vipina: What do you say, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That . . . everyone appreciated that in India, that the American fathers keeping him. Just like keeping him in cotton. (laughs) They admit that. Where is salt? There are many flies here? Vipina: Not many, and we have screens also in the windows, so there shouldn't be too much disturbance from them. Prabhupāda: Fruits are so nice. Kṛṣṇa has given fruit. They are locally grown? Bṛṣākapi: No, Prabhupāda. Not too many. They all come from other parts of the country. Prabhupāda: Your country? Bṛṣākapi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not outside. Not like England, they have to import from . . . this is a very good example. Just like salt, we require. A little salt will increase the taste. But because it is absolutely necessary for eating, salt—everyone eats salt; *nobody can avoid salt—it does not mean I shall eat too much. If I take this whole salt pot and put into . . . because "It is very good," that is foolishness. Similarly, sense gratification, so long we have got this material body, we require little. But because it is tasty, "Let us take it, whole pot," that is mistake. This is going on. This foolishness is going on. Sex life is good, simply take sex life, go on, and spoil your whole life. That is going on. If everything is accepted in regulative principle—little salt, that's all—that's very nice. But as soon as you think "It is very nice. Let me take simply this," then it is spoiled. That is wanted. We don't reject anything, but accept in a regular way. Flesh eaters? All right, you want flesh? "No, I want flesh, but I want this big cow." Why not less important animal? There are so many other animals. The goats are there, the lambs are there, the hogs are there. Take them. Why Kṛṣṇa says go*-rakṣya ? It is a very important animal. It will give you brain substance, this rasagullā . Therefore Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . But this rascal has no knowledge. The cows gives us milk, very nutritious. "No, eat the whole cow. Then all nutrition will come." This is their intelligence. Rubbish civilization. Why Kṛṣṇa has recommended go-rakṣya ? He never said that other animal. If you are fond of eating flesh, you take other animals, not the cow. Give protection, take milk from it, and prepare nice preparation, that will be good for brain, for your mind. Apart from . . . there is no question of religious sentiment. From practical. Rūpānuga: Just the medical point of view, it is right. Prabhupāda: You see. But they are so fools, rascals, they'll not accept it. And they'll give example, "Christ ate fish" somewhere. "Therefore we have to maintain the slaughterhouse." Because Christ ate fish, therefore we have to maintain slaughterhouse. Give the dog a bad name and hang it. Huh? This is going on. So we have to make vigorous propaganda for all this foolishness. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. So we are giving the best civilization, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. With little patience and perseverance you work on it, people will take it. Because there is nothing adulteration; it is pure. Rest assured, if you follow the principles and push on according to the prescription I have given, it will be accepted. May take some time. Rūpānuga: But they will appreciate the purity. Prabhupāda: It is pure. Actually, these fruits and some milk preparation are sufficient. You don't require any flesh. Is the flesh comparable with this nice fruit? (pause) Prabhupāda: Come on. Sit down. (distributing prasādam ) Devotee: Is there one for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, I am not so fool that I shall give everything. (laughter) (end) Conversation A -- July 3, 1976, Washington D.C. *Bṛṣākapi: . . . we have ordered. They will be arriving in two months. Also we have Prabhupāda*-Bhaktisiddhānta deities. They will be coming also. We will be the first in America to have Prabhupāda, Bhaktisiddhānta and Sītā-Rāma. Prabhupāda: Here? Bṛṣākapi: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Very good. This rasagullā is nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not as good as Keśī dāsa. Prabhupāda: They make it like Keśī dāsa, in New Vrindavan . . . (indistinct) (long pause) (indistinct background whispering) Prabhupāda: There is water? Bṛṣākapi: (indistinct) . . . here, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . to purchase it? And he has to sell to us. Nobody will purchase. Rūpānuga: No. And we have the option secured with a deposit. Otherwise, we would not spend so much money. Prabhupāda: Now, as soon as possible, you purchase it. Six hundred thousand? *Rūpānuga: Six*-fifty. Bṛṣākapi: We have purchased. In effect, we have already purchased, Prabhupāda. It is ours. Rūpānuga: It is just that we have ten years to get more money. Bṛṣākapi: It's cheaper to make the payments than to try and buy. Prabhupāda: But Rāmeśvara has not agreed to pay? Rūpānuga: No, we do not have to get money from BBT this way. This way we do not have to take loan. It is good, because BBT does not have that much money. Prabhupāda: No, we need supply money to India. Depend on Kṛṣṇa; Kṛṣṇa will supply. Vipina: Jaya . That happened just about less than a month ago. Some gentleman who was a Seventh Day Adventist, he became interested and started to call and come by, and listened to the philosophy, and even listened to your tapes. And then shortly after that he gave a donation of five thousand dollars. We bought with it some chandeliers for Kṛṣṇa's temple for you to see tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Five thousand dollars? Vipina: Yes. Prabhupāda: Don't misspend. Vipina: Not all on chandeliers. Just part of it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You have a bell system? Rūpānuga: Yes, it rings, but you can't hear it in here. It rings in the back quarters. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I'll just go in there. Prabhupāda: The doors you have purchased? Rūpānuga: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is costly? Vipina: Yes. Rūpānuga: The other doors were not . . . they could not even be locked nicely. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Vipina: We got matching doors all the way through your quarters. Bṛṣākapi: We are hoping if you like it, you will stay here, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I want to stay, but . . . Rūpānuga: . . . cannot. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Where's the bell? I want to test the buzzer. Rūpānuga: On the other side, underneath, it works. This Washington temple actually is one of your oldest centers, but this is the first time you have been able to come when facilities were proper. So we have . . . Prabhupāda: Indians are coming? Rūpānuga: Yes. Prabhupāda: They come on the Love Feast? Rūpānuga: They come to the Sunday feast. Vipina: They are starting to come more now. With the changes we made in the temple, and they are being very much impressed that we are doing nicely, and they want to become a part. Prabhupāda: I heard that Ambassador, you have made some engagement? Vipina: Prabhupāda, he . . . I got a call from his secretary, and I've been working on it, and I've been to his house once. He has a very nice, stately house. He had requested that maybe you could come there to his home, and your servant and Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa were thinking it might be hard for you to travel there. So we're trying to convince him to come here. Prabhupāda: Ah. There is no question of insisting. They cannot help us in any way. Vipina: No, not at all. Prabhupāda: I have tried all these. They are useless. Bṛṣākapi: We have written all the Parliament, and we have asked them to come, but they are too busy. Prabhupāda: So you go and take rest. Devotees: Jaya. Haribol . Prabhupāda: There is much time difference from . . .? Vipina: From . . .? *Bṛṣākapi: Ten*-thirty. It's ten-thirty now. Prabhupāda: No, New Vrindavan and . . .? Devotees: Same time, New Vrindavan. Rūpānuga: Should I close this, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I'm going to the bedroom. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like a fan that doesn't make so much noise, perhaps? A fan in here? Prabhupāda: May be required. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. (end) Conversation A -- July 4, 1976, Washington D.C. Prabhupāda: . . . punaḥ punaś carvita carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30), again spend millions of dollars. And our rascal Indian leaders, they are also. What is that here, she has remarked, "Hare Kṛṣṇa cult." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah, that Indian cultural organization. Rūpānuga: Who said that? Prabhupāda: One . . . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have one cultural organization, they want to export yogīs and teachers who they approve of, the Indian government approves of as being bona fide. Because the American government, so many people are complaining about misrepresentation by these Indian svāmīs and so*-called yogīs that are coming over. So they put Guru . . . the Divine Light Society . . . Hari-śauri: They said that once this is established there will be no room for the Divine Lighters, the Hare Kṛṣṇa cultists, like this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: T.M., like that. Hari-śauri: Transcendental Meditation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Label, put us all together. Rūpānuga: Really. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Foolish woman. Prabhupāda: And they're spending . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A hundred and sixty nine lakhs or something. Prabhupāda: A hundred and sixty nine lakhs per year, inviting foreign cultures to lecture. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And only a handful came. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only a handful they had; something like sixty people. They spent two . . . Prabhupāda: And what culture they'll speak? . . . (indistinct Hindi) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Culural exchange. Prabhupāda: They can speak, "Milk is dangerous and meat is very nutritious. Kill all the cows." Oh, yes, it's very scientific. This is the cult. "Milk is dangerous." Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they're saying that, the doctors nowadays. Rūpānuga: It's true. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember one day you retorted that. You said that, "Milk is nothing but the blood of the cow transformed. And the milk is bad but the blood is good?" Rūpānuga: They scare people by saying that milk helps to create heart disease and artery disease, like that. They frighten people with that propaganda, the doctors. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Meat creates cancer of the intestines. Rūpānuga: Actually, there have been some articles in papers lately about meat and cancer, linking meat and cancer. Prominent, prominently displayed articles. Prabhupāda: Then why do you give milk to the children? Give him blood. Rūpānuga: They say past a certain age . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, this propaganda—milk is bad—so why from the very beginning you give milk to the children? Rūpānuga: Actually, in America they do not feed the children by the breast. They use cow's milk practically from birth. Prabhupāda: Therefore I say. Rūpānuga: It's true. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There was an article in the newspaper about that today. It said in the newspaper that if women stop breast feeding their children they will have to increase the population of dairy cows tremendously. A very small percentage do now. Prabhupāda: They have to increase? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: More and more cows to produce enough milk to feed children. Prabhupāda: And therefore we are killing children. There is no problem, we shall kill our . . . why do you call? We shall kill, wholesale. And go to ball dance. Hari-śauri: The whole civilization is completely crazy. Prabhupāda: Kārtikeya told me. After many years he went to see his mother, and mother was going to ball dance. And mother said: "Wait, I am coming back." And he was surprised. He told me. Son has come at home after many years, and she could not talk with him. She was going to ball dance. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's actually that way. It actually goes on that way. Prabhupāda: This is the mother. Hari-śauri: Completely callous. Rūpānuga: Not even mother love anymore. Prabhupāda: Mother killing. He was about to be killed. He admits. His grandmother advised the mother. Yes. Kṛṣṇa saved him. Because he is devotee, some way or other, he was saved. Your grandmother still living? Hari-śauri: Just. Prabhupāda: Why don't you say, (laughs) "You wanted to kill me, just see, I'm chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." Hari-śauri: I don't think it would go down very well if I mentioned it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: I don't think it would be received very well. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: She might say: "See, I was right." Prabhupāda: Mother advising young daughter to kill her child. Rūpānuga: Actually there was a statement in the national magazine, the President's wife was advising her own daughter to the reporters that she should have illicit sex. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, this President's wife, this present First Lady, is very abominable. She actually came out and said: "If I were young I would also experiment with drugs." So many things. Prabhupāda: No, why here? In India, in India, in a office, I was going there for my Back to Godhead , so the clerk had one girl, they were intimately related, and the girl's father, mother allowed. The boy was coming. And when the girl wanted to marry him, the father refused: "No, no, you cannot marry. Let him come as friend, but there is no question of marriage." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What was their purpose? Prabhupāda: Purpose is that, "You are young girl, you can have a young boy as friend and have your sex, but don't talk of marriage." This is the plain fact. "You need sex? All right, keep him as friend. Marriage, that I will select, or a better boy. When we find, then there is question of marriage. He's a clerk, how you can be married with him? He's coming as friend. You enjoy sex, that's all." This is the . . . first of all, he was ordered not to come. Then the girl began to cry. Then he allowed, "All right let him come, but there is no question of marriage." Why he? Our, that (name withheld). You know? He was Ambassador in Germany. His daughter is a devotee. That boy who was selling books? (name withheld). Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (name withheld) is the girl's name. Prabhupāda: Ah. Her father said: "Yes, you keep as friend, don't marry." The (name withheld), Mr . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said that concerning (name withheld) and her? Prabhupāda: Yes. (name withheld) is living with her at her father's house. So he did not object but he objected marriage. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I heard that she became like a witch. (name withheld) left her. He couldn't bear associating with her. Now he's brahmacārī again. (laughter) That was one of Bhagavān's marriages that didn't work out. Rūpānuga: We were thinking that just like when you were in Moscow, a picture was taken . . . some pictures were taken that were used for Back to Godhead , very good propaganda. We were thinking maybe when we go on this tour that in front of the White House maybe we could take a picture and use it in Back to Godhead in an article like that. That might be good propaganda. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do. Rūpānuga: So we were thinking we would go there to the White House on the first part, then to Capitol, second part, then around to Lincoln Memorial, then Monument for fireworks ceremony. Prabhupāda: I will go to the fireworks. (end) Conversation A -- July 5, 1976, Washington D.C. (Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla) Prabhupāda: Everyone is engaged in the business of sense gratification. Just like last night millions of men went to see the firework. So the firework, as well as the people went to see there, the expenditure was very heavy, I think, total? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned that with all of the cars going and what not, it probably amounted to about ten million dollars. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that petrol. But what was the purpose? The purpose was little sense gratification, "I shall see something illuminating." What was other purpose? No purpose. Simply to satisfy the eyes, to see something illuminating. That is one sense, eyes. Then there are other senses. They also want satisfaction. There are hands, there are legs, there are tongue, eyes, ears, nose. So every one, every one of these senses, they are engaged for sense satisfaction. So this is the life. But that sense satisfaction is differently exhibited for different bodies. Just like this firework, it was interesting to the human being. Human being has got a particular type of body, so it is interested to see the firework. But the cats and dogs, they are not interested. They do not know what is fireworks. They, while we are interested to see the firework, a hog may be interested to eat stool. If he gets some stool somewhere, he'll be interested than to see the firework. So because he has got a different body, he's interested differently. We are human beings, we are interested differently. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja rightly said, deha*-yogena dehinām ( SB 7.6.3). This sense gratification, varieties, according to the varieties of the body. Deha-yogena dehinām. *But this is arranged, this different process of sense gratification is arranged daivāt , by the superior arrangement. Daivāt. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām, sarvatra labhyate daivāt (SB 7.6.3). By the superior arrangement everywhere it is available. Either you become Lord Brahmā or you become a small ant, the process of sense gratification, arrangement is there. (aside) You can come in front. Rūpānuga: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Professor Dr. Sukla. He has written a very favorable review on your books. *Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (laughs) Yes, I've seen you. Thank you very much. I'm just explaining that sense gratification, different types of bodies differently . . . so that is arranged by the superior arrangement. Sarvatra labhyate daivāt . So it is available everywhere according to the body arrangement. Prahlāda Mahārāja says . . . where is that book, Prahlāda Mahārāja, Seventh Canto? Tat*-prayāso na kartavyo , don't waste your time for that purpose. Tat-prayāso na kartavyo. Why not? Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param . Simply wasting the valuable duration of life. Yata āyur-vyayaḥ. But practically we see that the whole world is spoiling the life simply for sense gratification, especially at the present moment. Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param. You can read. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Translation: "Endeavors merely for sense gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual profit. If one's endeavors are directed towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can surely attain the spiritual platform of self*-realization. There is no such benefit from engaging oneself in economic development." *Prabhupāda: This is our philosophy, and the whole world is engaged in economic development. So which is better? (laughs) Here it is said tat*-prayāso na kartavyo . We see, especially in the Western country, they are very busy for economic development, and unless one is engaged . . . I think that Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they questioned that in India, people being fatalist . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They questioned, many people think this is a hindrance to progress. *Prabhupāda: So what is progress? In India still, in so fallen condition, we have got practical experience. If there is some arrangement . . . sometimes we arrange Hare Kṛṣṇa festival. Each day not less than twenty thousand, thirty thousand, forty thousand people come. Although these, mostly these foreigners, they are chanting, and we are speaking in English, still, to hear the kīrtana , they come from remote villages. In Calcutta I have seen. That is natural tendency of Indians. Bhārata*-bhūmi , anyone who has taken birth in India, naturally Kṛṣṇa conscious. By artificial means, they are being suppressed. Just like this Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have questioned that . . . what they have said? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They said that there are many thinkers in India who consider that the Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore it doesn't encourage people to make material progress. *Prabhupāda: That economic development. Our ācāryas , practically in Indian civilization, there are so many books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big factories for economic development. You'll find Vyāsadeva has written so many books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned. Dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41,CC Adi 1.90), he dealt with these four subject matter, but not bhakti . Therefore Nārada Muni chastised him that, "You have wasted your time, simply writing on the subject matter of dharma , artha, kāma, mokṣa, catur varga ." Then, under his instruction, he wrote Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam simply on the glories of the Supreme Lord, without any attempt to write anything about dharma artha kāma mokṣa . In the beginning he introduces, gives introduction to his book, dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavo 'tra śrīmad-bhāgavate (SB 1.1.2), in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , dharma , artha , kāma , mokṣa , they are all kaitavas , cheating. These things are thrown away. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). So this kaitava , Śrīdhara Swami gives his commentary, atra mokṣa-vāñchan paryantaṁ nirastam . The desire for liberation is also rejected. Simply devotional service to the Lord. That is only business. So our, this propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is on the basis . . . it is called bhāgavata-dharma . Prahlāda Mahārāja begins his teaching that this bhāgavata-dharma should be imparted from the very beginning of life. And people are missing this opportunity. They are being allured by other business. The main business they are forgetting, neglecting, and they are being drawn, their attention is drawn, so many sporting, so many economic development, then other anarthas , drinking, gambling, slaughterhouse, so on, so on. So this is against human civilization. Therefore if you will give us some chance . . . just like you have given. What is that? Mr. Loomis: Could I ask a question? I look at this room and my senses are gratified by this room, by that painting, by beautiful flowers, by the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is pleasing to my ear, and I have to feel that my senses are able to help my spirit, or else there will not be this beauty in this room. But I don't understand very well when sense gratification is helpful and when it is not. *Prabhupāda: Sense gratification is never helpful. That is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that kāmasya nendriya-prītir (SB 1.2.10). Sense gratification is required as far as . . . as little as possible. Otherwise, not for sense gratification. Just like sleeping. Sleeping is required because this material body requires some rest. But not that we shall sleep twenty-four hours or twenty hours and enjoy, as in this country sometimes they enjoy sleeping. But sleeping is wasting time. So long we shall sleep we cannot do anything good work. Therefore it should be minimized. You cannot avoid sleeping altogether. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is called tapasya , or advancement of spiritual life. Eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna . They're required. So long we have got this body, we require to eat something, we require to sleep sometimes, we require a little sense gratification, and we require defense. But it should be minimized, not increased. That is tapasya . In the human life this is possible, this is possible. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. One can conquer over these things, by practice. The more we minimize this āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna , this means we are advanced in spiritual taste. It is practice. My, my personal life, I don't sleep at night. And nowadays, at most, one hour. Yes. But I take rest in the daytime, at least two to three hours. So it is not that I am sleeping one hour. I sleep three to four hours total. But if practiced, it can be reduced, practiced. We see in the life of Gosvāmīs. About them, it is said: nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. They conquered over sleeping, eating. If we conquer over eating, then we can conquer over sleeping and other things also. If we can control over this tongue, then we can control over the other senses very easily. That is a fact. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung, tar madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati, tā 'ke jetā koṭhina saṁsāre. Of all our senses the tongue is very, very prominent. So the first thing in spiritual advancement, the first thing is to control the tongue. In the śāstra also it is said sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). Our present senses are unable to understand sri kṛṣṇa nāmādi , the holy name of the Lord. Ādi , beginning from His name, nāma , then guṇa , qualities, then pastimes, then form. So people cannot understand the form of the Lord because they are not practiced to devotional service. They are more or less impersonalists. They cannot imagine that God has His form like us, because they are not sevonmukha. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi. Not to speak of the form, they cannot understand what is the holy name of the Lord, why they are chanting, what is the benefit. They cannot understand. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). The present senses cannot appreciate. It has to be purified. That purification begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Then God reveals. When we chant the holy name of the Lord, purified, that is bhakti. Bhakti means to become purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Nirmalam means completely cleansed of all dirty things. That is bhakti . Bhakti means to engage the senses, purified senses, in the service of the Lord. At the present moment, in conditioned stage, our senses are not purified. Therefore we are very, very anxious to engage the senses for sense gratification. And when they will be purified, then these senses will be engaged for the service of Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣikeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam. God's another name is Hṛṣīkeśa, master of the senses. Actually, we have got these senses. Suppose this hand is also one of the senses, to touch. We are claiming it is my hand, but it is not my hand. It is Kṛṣṇa's hand. Kṛṣṇa has given us to use it. Just like this room is not my room. They have given me for my use. Similarly, this body, actually, it is made by Kṛṣṇa. It is a machine manufactured by the material nature under the order of Kṛṣṇa. So actually it is not my body, it is Kṛṣṇa's body. Kṛṣṇa has given us. He has given you a particular type of body, He has given me a particular type of body, so many. Yantra , machine. Just like on a machine, motorcar, we sit down and travel here and there. So we wanted to travel in a certain way so we require some machine, and Kṛṣṇa has given us this machine manufactured by material nature. *Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10). So Kṛṣṇa is within the core of heart of everyone. He knows what I want. He's giving us facilities. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and He's still giving direction, "All right, you want to get this facility, sit down on it and travel as you like." So we are getting different machines. Sometimes the human body machine, sometimes dog machine, sometimes cat machine, sometimes demigod machine. We are desiring all these things. American machine, Indian machine. When you are in Indian machine you are thinking, "I am Indian. My business is to satisfy Indian interests." You Americans are thinking, "This is American machine, it should be used for America's benefit." These are upādhi. Upādhi means designation. Neither I am Indian nor American nor cat nor dog. But as soon as I get a particular type of body, I think that I am cat, I am dog, I am Indian, I am America, I am black, I am white, this. This is our position. And people are struggling on this understanding, "I am this body." So long we think like that, "I am this body," we are no better than cats and dogs. He is also thinking "I am this body." Is it not? What do you think, Mr. Sukla? If I think I am this body, the dog is also thinking "I am this body," then where is the difference between the dog and me? What do you think, Mr . . . how shall I address you? Devotees: Loomis. Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Devotees: L*-o-o-m . . . Prabhupāda: So, what is the difference if a dog is thinking that, "I am dog," on account of his body, and if I am thinking I'm an Indian on account of this body. Then where is the difference between this dog and me? He is working under the impression that he's dog, and I am working under the impression I am Indian or American. Then where is difference? Yesterday you observed this great festival under this impression that, "I am American. I must observe this independence." Is it not? What was the meaning of this festival? It was interesting to the Americans. Other nations, they are not interested. They are not observing this independence festival. But the Americans are observing. Why? Under this impression that, "I am American." This yesterday . . . Mr. Loomis: Under the impression that what? Prabhupāda: Everyone is thinking that, "I am American." So if a human being is thinking "I am American," "Indian," or something like that, and if a dog is thinking "I am dog," then where is the difference between the mentalities? Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Of course, both, perhaps, are victim of some kind of illusion. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is illusion. That we are trying to describe. But this is going on. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," the human being is also thinking that "I am American," "I am Indian," or . . . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Then, perhaps, there is no difference. *Prabhupāda: No difference. That is described in the śāstra. Yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). This body is made of . . . everyone knows what is the composition: the bones, the flesh, the blood, the urine, the stool and so on, so on. The body, what is the composition? This is the composition. So if I identify with these bones, flesh, blood, muscle, veins, and stool, urine, so I am a living entity, I am all these bones and flesh and blood? Mr. Loomis: Is it better to have a human body as a machine to use than a cat's body? *Prabhupāda: Certainly, in the sense that you can utilize for higher purposes. Just like you have got this human form of body. Therefore you are sitting here to hear me. The dog has no such facility. The dog has got the same legs, hands or mouth and tongue, and so on, so on, in a different way. But it has no capacity to hear about spiritual advancement of life. Therefore the human body should be engaged not simply for sense gratification. Kāmasya nendriya*-prītir (SB 1.2.10). Find out this verse. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā . This is the business, tattva-jijñāsā. Tattva-jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is the only business. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kāmasya nendriya*-prītir labho jīveta yāvatā (SB 1.2.10). *Prabhupāda: Labho jīveta yāvatā . You can satisfy senses as far as it is required to live. That's all. Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā . The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . That is the only business. Mr. Loomis: For this machine? *Prabhupāda: All other business subordinate. That is only, because you have got this body, material body, it requires little rest, little sense gratification, little eating, little sleeping. We don't say stop it completely. That is not possible. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya , as far as it is required. As little as possible. That is spiritual advancement. If we make our progressive life engaged in understanding Kṛṣṇa instead of devoting in these unnecessary things, that is real life. That is real human life. The Vedic civilization is that. We find Vyāsadeva writing so exalted books, but life was very simple. People are, now in the modern civilization, people are accustomed only to the comforts of the body. Not for spiritual advance. That is the defect of modern civilization. (break) Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, no matter what material body you have, by material nature given you, one of the most predominating features of material life is pain. I want to address myself to this question, because in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we frequently face this problem. We have the pain of, for example, if you do tapasya , that's a pain to deprive your body of sense gratification. If you don't have sleep, you have to force yourself. If you have sickness, mental disturbances, so many things, then there's the other kind of pain. *Prabhupāda: That is being explained, that we don't want to stop sleeping, but minimize it. That is being already explained. We don't say complete negation. No. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya. Simply sleep as little as possible. Not that to take, just like in the Western countries, they take sleeping as enjoyment. Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They call it beauty rest. In Hawaii we went by a Beautyrest Mattress store. They call it beauty rest. Prabhupāda: Not for beauty rest. (laughter) Devotee (4): There's a kind of pain also, like when your false ego, when somebody tells you to do something or yells at you or gives you instruction. We all have this propensity to try and lord it over. When that's being denied, we feel a sense of pain, we feel like something, you know, be dejected in our service. The tendency is to want to be angry . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to be trained up under proper spiritual master. You cannot work whimsically. Then it will not help. Devotee (4): Should we always endeavor in spite of pain to push ourselves in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *Prabhupāda: There is no pain. It is painful in the beginning, but . . . everything. If you take some medicine, it is bitter, it is painful, but if it helps to cure disease, we must take it. "Because the medicine is bitter, I'll not take it." That is not sense. If you want to be cured from the disease, even the medicine is bitter, you must take. That is tapasya. Tapasya means things we are going to accept may be not very pleasing, but still we have to do it. That is tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We take bitter medicine just to cure our existence. Similarly, at the present moment, our existence is impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old age and disease on account of impure existence. Otherwise, we are spirit soul, we are eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So we are not in eternal existence, we are temporary existence. We have got this body, it will be finished. Then we have to accept another body, tatha dehāntara praptir . Then again you live in that body for some time, and again the body is finished. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). So this is going on. This is impure stage of our existence. So we have to purify it. Therefore to purify it tapasya required. Tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). The tapasya required. That tapasya has to be given lesson, trained up. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). That is brahmacārī system, to understand the value of life. These things are lacking in the present civilization, but it is essential. Without this, there is no meaning of human life. Then it is cats' and dogs' life. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). *So just we are trying to save men from this go*-kharaḥ civilization. Therefore it is not very appealing to the general mass of people. But still we have seen yesterday that as soon as we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone is attracted, everyone. You have seen yesterday? The drunkard, he was also attracted, and the child was attracted, the gray gentleman, he was also attracted, within the park. The child was dancing and the drunkard was dancing. Therefore this is the only means to elevate the modern men to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Have the writings of Vidyāpati come to attention, and if they have . . . Prabhupāda: That is very higher, not for ordinary persons. Vidyāpati's writing is meant for realized souls, not ordinary. Ordinary, they will take as love affairs between girls and boys. Therefore it is not for them. Those who are already advanced, liberated, then these love affairs of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, they will be discussed. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Is there any plan of bringing those things out, publishing them, his poems and translations? Prabhupāda: It is not for ordinary. Cāṇḍīdāsa, Vidyāpati. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to discuss Jayadeva's books, Vidyāpati's books, very confidentially amongst a few devotees. Not publicly. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: So you think they might be misused. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they are being misused. They take Kṛṣṇa as debauch. They do not understand. Therefore the Kṛṣṇa's līlā with the gopīs, they are described in the Tenth Canto. That is also middle of Tenth Canto, and nine cantos required to understand Kṛṣṇa, beginning with janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So that is the Absolute Truth. These things should be discussed in the beginning. Then when one is fully convinced that Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with this material world, as Śaṅkarācārya said, nārāyaṇaḥ para avyaktāt, avyaktāt anna sambhava. This material world is a production . . . (break) It has to be purified. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When it is nirmalam , then it is first-class. The first process is nirmalam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam (SB 7.5.23). This process is first-class. Not all of a sudden jump over. This literature, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . that should be kept in reserve for persons who are already liberated. Otherwise it will be misunderstood. Indian man: Going back to this sense question, where do you think the scheme of art fits into Kṛṣṇa conscious life? Prabhupāda: Art? *Indian man: Yes, like painting, or music, or literature, poetry, like that. Because the problem is that they, if one devotes oneself to these things, they are full*-time things, they take all your energy and time. And so . . . *Prabhupāda: Devotion means to engage your energy and time for Kṛṣṇa. Anyway you do that, that is utilized. Sarvopādhi*-vinir . . . tat-paratvena. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). So if you can serve Kṛṣṇa by your hand, by painting about Kṛṣṇa, that is service. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, if you hear the chanting, that is also service. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu , about Lord Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning. Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of pleasure, ānandamayo 'byāsāt . So these things are producing ānanda . If it is in connection with Kṛṣṇa, then it is service. (aside) So, Pālikā, you can take these fruits, cut into pieces and distribute it. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what if, ah, for instance, I'm too fallen to closely follow the regulative principles and I find myself in that way . . . Prabhupāda: Just explain. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Too fallen to follow the regulative principles is like saying a diseased man is too diseased to take medicine. So it's actually in our own self interest. We have to become enlightened, to understand what our real interest is. Yajña vai viṣṇu . Now we are thinking that our real interest is to gratify the senses. This is perishable. When we come to the understanding of ātmā, ahaṁ brahmāsmi , then we understand that our real self interest is to follow these regulative principles. As Prabhupāda said, in the beginning it may be painful, undoubtedly, because we are, for so many lifetimes addicted to sense gratification, but gradually more and more ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), when the heart becomes cleansed from the dirty misidentification with this gross and subtle material body, gradually more and more it becomes favorable . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa says: "Be happy by this sacrifice." Therefore the sacrifice must be joy-producing, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Simply that because we're presently in diseased condition, it may appear to be displeasing. Prabhupāda gives the example of someone who has jaundice. In the jaundice state, when you take sugar it appears very bitter. The perception is very bitter. But everyone knows that sugar is sweet. So in the same way, the regulative principles are naturally painful for someone who is irregular. For . . . engaged in bodily identification of life. But gradually it becomes more and more pleasing. Prabhupāda: Practical. Devotee: When we have Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (indistinct) . . . struggling for . . . (indistinct) . . . it has to be a struggle. Prabhupāda: What is struggle? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance and take prasādam . (devotee cheers) Prabhupāda: Is that struggle? You don't want to take it. Say that. Where is struggle? To take prasādam , nice prasādam , is struggle? (laughs) Devotee: No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You simply take prasādam , you haven't got to struggle. (laughter) But don't take anything else. Then it will be . . . (indistinct) Devotee: He's not struggling, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: At all. Devotee: He's not struggling taking prasādam . *Prabhupāda: Su*-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam. Rāja-vidyā rāja-guhyaṁ pavitram paramam idam. Su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam . Find out this verse. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the only way back to Godhead is to to attain the causeless mercy of the spiritual master. So . . . Prabhupāda: And he'll sleep. Just as your spiritual master will do for . . . (indistinct) . . . everything . . . (indistinct) . . . it is not magic. Kṛṣṇa, when He advised Arjuna, He never said that, "Arjuna, I'm your friend, God, I shall do everything . . . (indistinct) . . . you don't fight." Did He say? "You have to fight!" That's Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Not that by spiritual master's mercy . . . (indistinct) . . . you have to struggle. You have to follow the rules and regulations. Yes, what does He say? Devotee (3): "This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed." Devotee (3): So by struggling to overcome our senses, we can please you and obtain your mercy? Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) *Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda mentions in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , in the Third Canto, that a yogi is recommended to take foodstuffs, half as much as he desires, one quarter water, one quarter air, one quarter foodstuff. Is that fully recommended for a person in the the Kṛṣṇa consciousness society? If so, how can you be . . . (indistinct) . . .? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The basic principle is that—Prabhupāda mentioned earlier in this afternoon's talk—that if you can control the tongue, especially eating habits, then you'll be able to conquer other things such as sleep. Not only sleep, but also overeating produces other problems like sex desire. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha*-vegaṁ jihvā-vegam udaropastha-vegam . So jihva , the tongue and the belly, udara, upastha , genital, one straight line, like this. So there's a correlation. If one overindulges in eating, then it becomes very difficult also to conquer sex desire, which is the main attraction, or bondage within this material world, not only for the human being but for every living entity. So the principle is that if you don't overeat it will become easier for you to conquer all the senses, as Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, tongue is the most formidable of all the senses. Tāra madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudur . . . always lusting after more and more. Never satisfied. So we have to become sufficiently enlightened to regulate eating habits. This is done by taking prasādam at regular times, and gradually, intelligently you can see what you actually require. Not that everyone will require the same amount. Just like there's a plate of food so one person is big or one person is small. An elephant and an ant, both of them have different quotas. So everyone has a particular quota of prasādam they should take. Gradually by practice apart from this . . . (indistinct) . . . is required. It's common sense. Guest: There are two, two functions in the tongue, one is . . . (indistinct) . . . and one is . . . (indistinct) . . .? So which one . . . (indistinct) . . . preaching is a form of tapasya ? . . . (indistinct) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , the different austerities. The austerity of the tongue, the austerity of the mind, the austerity of the body. It is described in the Seventeenth Chapter and the, and the austerity of the tongue, of speech: It's an austerity, tapa . Austerity of speech consists of speaking truthfully, and beneficially, and then avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the *Vedas* regularly. So preaching is also control of the tongue. So our philosophy is that control doesn't mean that you stop. It's not possible. Can you stop eating? Can you stop sleeping? Can you stop different activities of going here and going there? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . everyone . . . (indistinct) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But that everything should be done in relationship to Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will become purified. Hṛṣīkeśa hṛṣīkeṇa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate . When the senses are engaged for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then they're no longer . . . the senses are compared to the sharp teeth of serpents, serpents' . . . (indistinct) . . . sharp teeth are naturally very dangerous. But when engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, the shark teeth, they're broken. So they can't feel any trouble. Although we are using the senses which is the cause of bondage, these senses employed in Kṛṣṇa's service, they no longer become a source of bondage, but of liberation. Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) Serpent is dangerous, so long he has got the fangs . . . (indistinct) . . . if the fang is taken away that means he's no more dangerous. So . . . (indistinct) . . . but if I am sure that his fangs are taken away . . . (indistinct) . . . senses are dangerous, it is compared with the serpent. (Sanskrit) But if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that (Sanskrit) the fangs are no more existing therefore it is no more dangerous. Devotee: Is it true or not true that Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta said that failure is the pillar of success and if it is true, what success . . . (indistinct) . . .? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know exactly if Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda has used this saying . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Failure is the pillar of success. But generally speaking, to paraphrase it, it means that we should learn from our mistakes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is success. If we learn our failure and try to rectify it, that is . . . (indistinct) *Devotee (3): I asked Prabhupāda the other day, because Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says: "Forget the past, it sleeps and never the future dream at all. Live with times that are of thee, and progress thee shall call." So I asked Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it possible to forget the past? Śrīla Prabhupāda said: "No, that would not be possible, but we can think like this, that 'I have done so many foolish things,' and rectify it. Not that we should remain fools. Then what would be the value of our experience? Just like a child, he can put his finger in the fan and it hurts. So then he learns not to do it again. But if he's so dull*-headed that again and again he puts his finger in the fan . . . basically our experience from the material world should be duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). That the material world is simply a place of misery. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhī-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). That we should perceive the miseries of birth and death, disease and old age. That should be our experience in the material world. From this we should aspire for real happiness . . . (indistinct) Devotee: So this . . . it explains also in the *Nectar of Instruction* that the man who may see others stealing and see others also put in jail and punished for stealing, he may have been caught himself and punished for stealing but yet he goes out and steals again. That this sticking his finger in the fan . . . again and again. Is this a symptom of the cause . . . (indistinct) . . .? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's called durācara , misbehavior. So atonement, according to Śukadeva Gosvāmī, is not simply repenting and saying, "Oh, I'm sorry." But becoming intelligent. Atonement means coming to the platform of real intelligence. That intelligence is that, "Why I am becoming implicated in this material world, in so many ways which will simply produce more and more suffering for myself?" Just like if he steals, he knows he goes to prison, so he knows it beforehand, he's not ignorant of the fact. In this instance, one . . . he knows that if he steals, he goes to prison. So in the same way we should become intelligent and should understand the laws of nature, the laws of God. That's athāto brahma jijñāsā. Inquiry what is the real nature, what is the real nature of Brahman, how Brahman has manifested this material world and how it's going on. Then become intelligent, act for your own self*-interest, become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Devotee: It is explained that the intelligence is the next door neighbor of the soul, can you explain exactly what that means, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: So what is his question? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His question is that the intelligence, sometimes you've gone like this, I've seen, you say that the soul and the intelligence are like that, that the intelligence is very close to the soul. Guest: (indistinct) . . . the relationship between the intelligence, working in the soul. Prabhupāda: Soul is above intelligence. This is the relationship. Intelligence is above the mind, and soul is above the intelligence. Senses, then mind, then intelligence, then the soul. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . matter. Prabhupāda: Yeah, subtle matter . . . (indistinct) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur (BG 3.42). Prabhupāda: Oh, indriyāṇi parāny āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42). Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ. *Prabhupāda: So when you engage yourself in soul's activities, then gradually your intelligence, mind, senses, become spiritualized, or original. Then material activities stop. At the present moment without being . . . (indistinct) . . . spiritually initiated . . . (indistinct) . . . we are acting on the platform of gross senses. But if we begin our activities from the opposite side, from soul side, then everything becomes spiritualized. But the question of giving up the senses, no, it has to be purified. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Senses . . . (indistinct) . . . it should be purified. At the present moment, on account of material conception of life everything is polluted with material ideas. So when it will be spiritualised, that is perfect. But instead of working uselessly, if we use our legs for going to the temple then it is spiritualized work. And instead of going to the cinema, if we go and see Deity then it is spiritual eyes. Instead of going to the restaurant, hotel, if we take prasādam , so then you spiritualize your tongue. Instead of talking nonsense, if you talk about Kṛṣṇa, then it is properly utilizing the tongue. In this way we have to practice. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Somebody is trying to stop sense activity. That is not possible. The sense activity should be cleansed. That is wanted. Otherwise how would he say hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). If you completely reject your senses then how we can serve Kṛṣṇa? It has to be purified. That is devotional service. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarnane (SB 9.4.18). Manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ , fix up your mind in Kṛṣṇa, then your talking will be purified, your walking will be purified, your handling will be purified, your hearing will be purified, everything will be purified. You cannot be desireless. But if we simply desire Kṛṣṇa, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Anyābhilāśitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). Our activities are going on on the platform of karma and jñāna . Or little more on yoga . Karma, jñāna and yoga . So one has to give up all these, karma , jñāna . The karmīs are working for sense gratification. The jñānīs are working for being liberated. The yogis are working for some magical power. Aṣṭa-siddhi . So one has to become free from all these desires. Anyābhilāsa-śūnyam, anyābhilāsa-śūnyam, jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Simply you should be prepared to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. . . (indistinct). If you are trying in different way, for sense gratification, karmīs are grossly, they want something for sense gratification . . . (indistinct) . . . they want nice car, wife, house, nice wife, nice . . . (indistinct) . . . so many things. That is karmī life. Jñānī , as they are baffled, they say, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , this endeavor for all mithyā . They take sannyasa , but after few days, again they take to the karmī's life. So that is also not good. Restless, so long you remain karmī, jñāni, yogi , restless. But when you become devotee you have no such desires, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). And then you become happy. Simply ready . . . (indistinct) . . . to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna, he after hearing Bhagavad-gītā , what was his position? His position was, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . Yes. Yes, I am now ready to do whatever You say." That is . . . (indistinct) . . . he did not become a karmī, jñāni, yogi . Simply . . . (indistinct) . . . to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat-prasādān madhusūdana. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Prabhupāda: This is wanted. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says: "You fight." He hesitated. "How can I fight? To kill my grandfather, my teacher? To kill my brother? My nephew? And so on, so on, so on. What You are advising, Kṛṣṇa, I cannot do." Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā was talked, and after learning he says: "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava ." . . . (indistinct) . . . this is perfection. He remained the same soldier. In the beginning, he was declining to fight, but at the end, he has agreed, "Yes." In the beginning it was "No." And when he was perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is "Yes." The materialist person, they are accustomed to say: "No." "No, God." When you become "Yes, God," then you are perfect. Jñānīs are "No, God." The karmīs are "No, God," yogis are "No, God," everyone, "No, God." Only the bhaktas , "Yes, God!" Yes. So that is perfect. This morning one Indian gentleman was talking about this impersonal, what was his question? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, some gentleman was asking the question in the morning? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . interpretation, that one person is interpreting in this way and another in that way, so they're saying they feel like if . . . Prabhupāda: So why they should interpret different way? Guest: What was the question? Prabhupāda: Just . . . explain to him. Devotee: There was an Indian man there and he was saying that, you were presenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the philosophy very nicely, but there are others who are presenting it in an impersonal way. And they are able through the scripture to support what they say. Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . now in our . . . (indistinct) . . . you can't actually substantiate that God is impersonal, because Kṛṣṇa is a person speaking to Arjuna, so where is the question of impersonal? . . . (indistinct) . . . so Prabhupāda said it's because they're speculating and cheating, that they're interpreting it in some devious manner, rather than taking what Kṛṣṇa said, literally, as it is . . . (indistinct) Guest: Well, I have given some thought to that. I found that whenever you take an impersonal view, it becomes a pure intellectual exercise, devoid of any feeling. And if you bring feeling into that, it becomes personal. Like, I don't believe that anything can survive without feeling. So . . . *Prabhupāda: It is in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it is clearly said, bhagavān uvāca . It is never said Brahman uvāca . (laughter) People have no eyes to see. The absolute truth is realized brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). But in the Bhagavad-gītā it is never said Paramātmā uvāca . (laughter) Or Brahman uvāca. Bhagavān uvāca! Vyāsadeva, He does not say kṛṣṇa uvāca , because Kṛṣṇa will be taken, misunderstood. Therefore (Vyāsadeva) directly says, śrī bhagavān uvāca. So where is impersonal? There is no question of impersonal. He clearly says bhagavān. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Bhagavān says, "I am everything." So where is imperson? How they can bring in impersonal at all? It is simply dragging the matter. This impersonal has killed India's Vedic culture. Guest: Well, the example is that Śaṅkarācārya, who was of course . . . Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya, he advised bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam , "Hey you rascal, whatever I have said, you just . . ." Guest: On the one hand he reached the height of that intellectual exercise, at the same time he realized that bhaja govindam. Prabhupāda: No. He is correct in the study. Because his mission was to stop atheism. At that time India was full of Buddhistic philosophy. Atheism. So his preaching was to stop Buddhism. Therefore, the Buddhists are śūnyavādis . So he said, "No, it is not śūnya . That is Brahman. This material world is false, . . . (indistinct) . . ." Lord Buddha said everything is false. He said: "No, the material world is false, Brahman is false, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. But he did not give any further information of Brahman. But at last he said brahma me govindaṁ brahmate bhaja govindam. Guest: There's a very nice story about this illusion. That once he was walking and someone who knew that Śaṅkarācārya preached this illusion business, was riding on an elephant, so he asked his driver, "Chase Śaṅkarācārya." And of course he did and Śaṅkarācārya started running. So this man said: "Why are you running, since this is illusion?" And he said: "So is my running." (laughter) He said: "So is my running, that's also an illusion." *Rūpānuga: But sometimes the impersonalists, they say, Prabhupāda, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is just the beginning platform, that after Kṛṣṇa consciousness then one can come to impersonal realization. They say that in the scriptures only Bhagavad*-gītā and a few scriptures teach about Kṛṣṇa but the rest of the Vedas don't even talk about Kṛṣṇa's name. So, therefore, this impersonalism is higher realization, but one comes to it, after bhakti . Prabhupāda: No. There are *Vedas* , there are so many names described. Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa by studying *Vedas* , then he has not studied *Vedas* . It is very confidential. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam ? If one has studied Veda , but has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then his labor is useless. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). If one is actually jñānavān, then he . . . (indistinct) . . . Śaṅkarācārya said bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam. That is real knowledge. But if one says that in the *Vedas* , you don't find Kṛṣṇa's name, then he has not studied Veda . Because Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). The actual purpose of studying *Vedas* means to understand Kṛṣṇa. If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). They have simply labored for nothing. Guest: Also this, another aspect was answered, the Vedic literature, all that we have today, is not a complete literature. We assume that perhaps some part of the literature has never been copied and was probably lost. So if His name doesn't occur in certain portion of *Vedas* , it doesn't mean that the name didn't occur in the *Vedas* . This is something that people have . . . Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa's name is very confidential. In the Atharva Veda , there is name, there is . . . Jīva Gosvāmī has quoted from Atharva Veda . There is Kṛṣṇa's name. And this, the best scholar of *Vedas* . . . (indistinct) . . . he says, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇa, Śaṅkarācārya. Then other ācāryas they have supported Kṛṣṇa's teachings, just like Rāmānujācārya, and . . . (indistinct) . . . he has quoted Vedic quotation, every śloka . So one has to learn the real *Vedas* , then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned," (Sanskrit). Everywhere is Kṛṣṇa's name. But one must be actually scholar in *Vedas* , then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the beginning, in the middle, and at the end." Devotee (2): In the glorifications of Ṛg Veda . . . (indistinct) . . . example of glorifications of Kṛṣṇa there? Prabhupāda: Everything is glorification of Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (3): Whenever Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the *Vedas* , He's mentioned as the Supreme. Some people, some scholars say: "Well, so many other demigods are mentioned far more often than Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa's mentioned to be the supermost. From the Atharva Veda , (Sanskrit). "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme." Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Either you accept this Kṛṣṇa's statement, or you reject Kṛṣṇa. But He says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat . What do you want more? Guest: Well, Prabhupādajī, if anyone has gone to *Gītā* and if he is still bothered by the historical evidence, I don't think he has read *Gītā* . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: So we should never really be bothered by this question of historical . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we have concentrated on *Gītā* . This movement—when I registered this association, so when I wrote "Kṛṣṇa consciousness," some friend said: "Why don't you write 'God consciousness'?" But no, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are particularly preaching Kṛṣṇa's teaching. Kṛṣṇa is God, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But if you think that there is another God then you may do your business. We are concerned with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We cannot allow any interpretation of Kṛṣṇa. That is our propaganda . . . (indistinct) . . . (aside) Yes? Guest (2): There is a Swami, Gangesvaranandaji . . . (indistinct) . . . *Vedas* . . . (indistinct) . . . books that Kṛṣṇa's name in the *Vedas* is mentioned. Prabhupāda: Ah? Devotee: Kṛṣṇa's name in the *Vedas* is already there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: He has clearly . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15)? Guest (3): The Māyāvādīs say that Vedānta is impersonal, and . . . (indistinct) . . . Vedānta . . . *Prabhupāda: You do not know what is Vedānta . . . (indistinct) . . . in the beginning of Vedānta , athāto brahma jijñāsā . "Now try to inquire about this Supreme . . . (indistinct) . . . Brahman." The next verse is janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), Brahman is there, from whom everything emanates. So now, what is that thing from which everything emanates? What is the nature of that thing? That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Bhāgavatam is the real explanation of Veda . Brahma-sūtra . . . (indistinct) . . . mahasyam brahma-sūtrānāṁ Vedasya parividyatam , this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Vedasya parividyatam . . . (indistinct) . . . avyayam, brahma-sūtrasya uvaca , by Vyāsadeva himself. Vyāsadeva is the writer of Vedānta -sūtra, so he's writing himself under the instruction of Nārada. So to understand Vedānta , you have to study Bhāgavatam . He's explained janmādy asya (SB 1.1.1). Brahman is the original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ. So what is the nature? Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca . . . (end) Conversation A -- July 6, 1976, Washington D.C. Prabhupāda: You economically prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is simple and inexpensive life. Devotees: Yes, jaya . Mercy. Prabhupāda: Food, diet, living condition, healthy, hygienic, everything. You prove that this is the best way of life. That's a fact. From all sides, prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential for the human society, to make them happy in this life and next life. And that is a fact. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda? Today I want to discuss about the manifestation of matter from pradhāna . Now Lord Kapiladeva describes that pradhāna is the undifferentiated sum total of all material elements. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mahat*-tattva ? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, pradhāna . Then from pradhāna , by the action of time this mahat*-tattva is generated. Now we were a little confused about that. He said by the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency there is hiraṇmaya, hiraṇmaya is produced within mahat-tattva , and this hiraṇmaya is self-effulgent. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's effulgent. Prabhupāda: Hiraṇmaya ? Hari-śauri: Effulgent. Prabhupāda: Oh, effulgent, yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now our point is whether this hiraṇmaya . . . in the mahat*-tattva , the relationship between these two and pradhāna , how does that relate each other? It's not very clear in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . We're not very clear, this point. It said from pradhāna , by the impregnation with the Lord's internal potency, the hiraṇmaya is produced. That's actually the beginning of the injection of jīvas within these material modes. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is little complicated. So is it not clear from the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is little difficult to understand the phenomenal descriptions. *Prabhupāda: In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, nityānanda-tattva ? You can read it, you'll get some clue. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: We also get some clue from First Canto, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , in the puruṣa incarnations, where it explains about tattva . But there is a difference between . . . now our understanding is this: pradhāna , both pradhāna and mahat-tattva , they are eternal, though they are material manifestations. Prabhupāda: Everything eternal. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, eternal in the sense that it's different from prakṛti . Now prakṛti is, when it is completely manifested . . . Prabhupāda: Prakṛti, pradhāna, puruṣa, these things are little complicated. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we wanted to clarify this, because this is the nice thing that we can show that matter comes from life. This is the source. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sa īkṣata, sa asṛjata , by the glance of Mahā*-Viṣṇu . . . eko nārāyaṇa āsīt. In the beginning, Nārāyaṇa was there. There was no Lord Śiva, no neither Brahmā. This mantra was there. So originally, by the glance . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: By the glance of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: We can prove it that how by the sunshine everything is growing, how it is. Your molecule and so on, so on, you can describe. Actually, from the sunshine the trees are growing, leaves are coming. As soon as there is no sunshine, immediately they fall down, the leaves, and the tree becomes without any leaves. How this happens? The same process. The sunshine produces so many things. Similarly, by the glance of the Supreme, the material nature becomes agitated and the three guṇas become manifest. In this way these are described there. The same process. How from the sunshine the leaves are coming out, what are the molecular changes, if you can study the same process. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) . . . with this hiraṇmaya , the relationship between mahat*-tattva and the hiraṇmaya is clear, then I think at least we can have some idea. So we are little confused on this very point, that it is also said pradhāna is the twenty-four elements that doesn't contain time. Prabhupāda: Pradhāna is the ingredient. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is the sum total of the unmanifested material elements. Now from pradhāna actually mahat*-tattva is manifested. In mahat-tattva there is a basic difference that there is some . . . already some manifestations in mahat-tattva . Rūpānuga: Categories. *Prabhupāda: Total material elements, mahat*-tattva . Rūpānuga: Is that differentiated? *Prabhupāda: Mahat*-tattva is differentiated. Rūpānuga: Different categories? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, the time element is there in mahat*-tattva , so it is already twenty-five elements there including time. At this stage also, the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency means that the jīvas are already impregnated here from pradhāna . So here the living entities are in pure goodness. *Prabhupāda: The living entities are always in pure goodness. This material covering is separated. The living entities can be freed from material covering at any moment. Just like water and oil, it is always separated—it does not mix. The Vedic mantra also says, asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. Actually, it is not mixed, but it is covered. Such covering can be taken away at any moment simply by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate ( BG 14.26). I think in First Canto, that description you try to understand, you'll get. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now in the First Canto in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam also it is not very clear. *Prabhupāda: Then Second Canto, the development of sṛṣṭi*-tattva , there you'll get. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think there is also reference in the Bhagavad*-gītā , this Hiraṇmaya, because sometimes it's also called Brahman. Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti . What? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Brahman. *Prabhupāda: Brahman, yes. He's called Hiraṇya*-garbha, Brahmā. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hiraṇya*-garbha. It's also said in this state, pradhāna state, the cause and effect are not clearly manifested. *Prabhupāda: Caitanya caritāmṛta , did you refer nityānanda*-tattva ? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I haven't studied that yet. Prabhupāda: Read it, you'll get clue there. Maybe in the Third Chapter. Bring up here. We shall . . . first part, take it. *Rūpānuga: Ādi*-līlā ? Prabhupāda: First part, take it. Bṛṣākapi: Chapter Three? Prabhupāda: In Muslim country, Christians, or the Americans preaching Hindu religion, it has been taken very seriously in Iran. Three different elements: preaching center is Muhammadan, and the preacher an American, and the cult Hindu. (laughs) So the princess of Iran and her husband, they are, up to date, they are very much appreciating. The daughter of Shah. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, you read the Contents. Rūpānuga: Or the index maybe. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: No, the Summary. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Chapter Three. "In this chapter the author has fully discussed the reason for the descent of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, after displaying His pastimes as Lord Kṛṣṇa, thought it wise to make His advent in the form of a devotee to explain personally the transcendental mellow reciprocations of service and the love between Himself and His servants, friends, parents and fiancees. According to the Vedic literature, the foremost occupational duty for humanity in this age of Kali is nāma*-saṅkīrtana , or congregational chanting of the holy name of the Lord. The incarnation for this age especially preaches this process, but only Kṛṣṇa Himself can explain the confidential loving service performed in the four principal varieties of loving affairs between the Supreme Lord and His devotees. Lord Kṛṣṇa therefore personally appeared, with His plenary portions, as Lord Caitanya. As stated in this chapter, only for that purpose did Lord Kṛṣṇa appear personally in Navadvīpa in the form of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja has herein presented much authentic evidence from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and other scriptures to substantiate the identity of . . ." *Prabhupāda: You are reading Caitanya Mahāprabhu. About Nityānanda, see the Contents? No, in the beginning. Chapter where is Contents. Nityānanda*-tattva . *Rūpānuga: "The Glories of Lord Nityānanda*-Balarāma." Prabhupāda: Fifth Chapter? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. "This chapter is chiefly devoted to describing the essential nature and the glories of Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the Absolute Personality of Godhead, and His first expansion in a form for pastimes is Śrī Balarāma. Beyond the limitation of this material world is the spiritual sky, paravyoma , which has many spiritual planets, the supreme of which is called Kṛṣṇaloka. Kṛṣṇaloka, the abode of Kṛṣṇa, has three divisions, which are known as Dvārakā, Mathurā and Gokula. In that abode that Personality of Godhead expands Himself into four plenary portions—Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma, Pradyumna (the transcendental Cupid) and Aniruddha. They are known as the original quadruple forms. In Kṛṣṇaloka is a transcendental place known as Śvetadvīpa, or Vṛndāvana. Below Kṛṣṇaloka, in the spiritual sky, are the Vaikuṇṭha planets. On each Vaikuṇṭha planet a four*-handed Nārāyaṇa, expanded from the first quadruple manifestation, is present. The Personality of Godhead known as Śrī Balarāma in Kṛṣṇaloka is the original Saṅkarṣaṇa (attracting Deity), and from this Saṅkarṣaṇa expands another Saṅkarṣaṇa, called Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa, who resides in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. By His internal potency, Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa maintains the transcendental existence of all the planets in the spiritual sky, where all the living beings are eternally liberated souls. The influence of the material energy is conspicuous there by its absence. On those planets the second quadruple manifestation is present. Outside of the Vaikuṇṭha planets is the impersonal manifestation of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, which is known as the Brahmaloka. On the other side of the Brahmaloka is the spiritual kāraṇa-samudra , or Causal Ocean. The material energy exists on the other side of the Causal Ocean, without touching it. In the Causal Ocean is Mahā-Viṣṇu, the original puruṣa expansion from Saṅkarṣaṇa. This Mahā-Viṣṇu places His glance over the material energy, and by a reflection of His transcendental body He amalgamates Himself within the material elements. As the source of the material elements, the material energy is known as pradhāna , and as the source of the manifestations of the material energy it is known as māyā . But material nature is inert in that she has no independent power to do anything. She is empowered to make the cosmic manifestation by the glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Therefore the material energy is not the original cause of the material manifestation. Rather, the transcendental glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu over the material nature produces that cosmic manifestation." Prabhupāda: So you try to understand this, everything will be clear. Material energy has no power to create. It is this glance that makes material energy energetic. Chemical combination, that alkaline and acid, they create some agitation, effervescence, but it is done by the chemist. He mixes the two liquids, and there is effervescence. It is like that. So you read that chapter carefully, you'll solve your problem. (pause) *Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's said in the mahat*-tattva when the Lord glances or impregnates, that the glancing . . . Prabhupāda: That is spiritual. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it's still spiritual. *Prabhupāda: That glancing is spiritual. So matter itself cannot do anything. Aja*-jala-stana , it has been given. Aja-jala-stana , the nipples in the throat, neck. As there are some nipples, nipples useless, that is not milk-giving nipples. So nature is creating. They, generally, they say: "By nature," but nature has no power. It is matter. When there is glance of Saṅkarṣaṇa or Viṣṇu, that will do. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In that state, when a living entity's impregnated in this state, it is also said that it is in pure goodness. Prabhupāda: Pure goodness always. It is simply covered. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is not the completely manifested yet, but then it says by the contamination of pure goodness by ahaṅkāra , then starts material ego. From there, everything is going to manifest. So once we come to material ego then it seems clear. *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out, puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: "The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species." (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: How does the contaminated ego or contaminated consciousness differ from false ego? Prabhupāda: Hmm? That is contaminated ego, false ego. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we have a subdivision in the Third Canto for internal subtle senses. It is said mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness, and this ego is false ego, and another division is contaminated consciousness. Prabhupāda: This is false ego, "I am this matter. I am this body." This is false ego. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but why it is . . . Prabhupāda: Ego is there, but this is false ego. Rūpānuga: Then by association with the modes there is contaminated consciousness. Prabhupāda: This false ego develops. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: But still in this verse on Chapter Twenty*-six, verse fourteen, it says there are four internal subtle senses. Now these four senses are mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness. Devotee: Is that real ego, the soul? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But how can it be the senses? Rūpānuga: Here we are. "The internal subtle senses are experienced as having four aspects in the shape of mind, intelligence, ego and contaminated consciousness. Distinctions between them can be made only by different functions, since they represent different characteristics." Purport: "The four internal senses or subtle senses described herein are defined by different characteristics. When pure consciousness is polluted by material contamination, and identification with the body becomes predominant, this is called false ego. Consciousness is the function of the soul, and therefore behind consciousness there is soul. When consciousness is polluted by material contamination, this is called ahaṅkāra ." *Prabhupāda: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . The same thing. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-sthaḥ bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is this ego mentioned here, is it a false ego? That's what I understand. Prabhupāda: Not real. Real ego is "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Rūpānuga: Is there false ego in different modes? Like false ego in the mode of ignorance, false in the mode of passion or goodness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: So the consciousness can be contaminated according to the mode in which it's associating. *Prabhupāda: Yes, prakṛti*-jān guṇān. Rūpānuga: Yes. So I am identifying with my body in any mode, that is false ego. But my consciousness is contaminated by a particular mode—may be passion, may be ignorance, may be goodness. So then my consciousness is contaminated. So false ego is the base of all material activities, but I may be acting in a certain mode, contaminated in a certain way. Is that right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: That is what it means. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everything clear, these four internal subtle senses? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: What else you got? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, consciousness is a symptom of life, so when we say contaminated consciousness, the quality of life is there, but somehow that . . . Prabhupāda: That is mixed with material modes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Rūpānuga: Originally it is goodness. Very . . . pure goodness, you say. Originally in the beginning is . . . Prabhupāda: I give the example, just like water falling from the sky. It is crystal clear, distilled water. But as soon as touches the earth, it becomes muddy. But that muddiness can be filtered. Rūpānuga: Plus muddiness is the character of the mud, not the consciousness. And it can be cleansed, filtered out. Prabhupāda: Yes, that filtering process is devotional service. So unless the water is different from the precipitated matter, how it can be filtered? Svarūpa Dāmodara: So far we are concerned, prakṛti is clear, but the source of prakṛti is little, ah . . . so we'll try to . . . we want to show this, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our chapter on some sort of creation, creation of material manifestation. Prabhupāda: You'll get this from Second Canto. *Rūpānuga: Second Canto. That's that "First Step in Self*-Realization" chapter? Sadāpūta: Fifth chapter, sixth chapter—two chapters. Prabhupāda: Atra sargo visargaś ca (SB 2.10.1), that verse, Second Canto, you find out. Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is matter generated within a given body, like the body of a human being? While it's living, is matter generated and annihilated within that body during the time of life? Prabhupāda: Body is matter. Whole body is combination of matter. Sadāpūta: Right. But does the living entity within, or the Supersoul . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, within. Sadāpūta: Does it generate matter, so say the body could get heavier or lighter because of that? Prabhupāda: Because the living entity is there, matter is generated. Just like a tree, living entity is there, and big log, wood, is generated. Rūpānuga: Like that stone. That stone is increasing its weight, so when someone goes to see the stone he sees, ah, the stone is bigger and heavier also. So that increased material or matter that makes up the bigger size of the stone, is that matter being generated from the soul? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: From the spirit soul. So spirit soul has power . . . Prabhupāda: Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Rūpānuga: Ah! Prabhupāda: Similarly, from the spirit soul everything has come out. Rūpānuga: So spirit soul can create matter. Prabhupāda: Actually, from life matter is generated. Rūpānuga: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Not from matter life is generated. That is wrong. Sadāpūta: There are some people who have done measurements and . . . Prabhupāda: Measurement is there in the Vedic literature, Upaniṣad, Purāṇa . Rūpānuga: Is it that the living entity, when he creates this matter to expand, like the stone is growing, does he manufacture this material from the etheric platform, or does he . . . Prabhupāda: According to his desire he can. Rūpānuga: Simply by desiring. Prabhupāda: What is that one verse? Icchā dveṣaḥ samutthena sarge yānti . . . *Rūpānuga: There have been some . . . modern scientists have done some experiments showing that in the soil there are organisms, micro*-organisms and earthworms, that can produce chemicals, increasing just simply by their presence. Prabhupāda: Yes. I have given that example; already he has mentioned. Rūpānuga: Pasteur? Prabhupāda: No, no, this lemon. Rūpānuga: A lemon tree. Prabhupāda: A lemon tree is producing chemicals. Sadāpūta: Some people would say the lemon tree was simply taking food and rearranging it to produce the lemon juice. Prabhupāda: Yes. But the tree is the source, but everything is there in the earth. But God's creation is so nice that through the tree the chemical is coming. The chemical is there in the earth, but the seed of the lemon tree, when it grows, it extracts the particular type of chemical. Sadāpūta: We were wondering then if also it could produce matter, instead of taking from the earth and rearranging it. *Prabhupāda: No, earth is the source of everything. Sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī (SB 1.10.4), you get from . . . actually you are getting all chemicals from the earth. Rūpānuga: So they are already there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: Created by Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. The . . . (indistinct) . . . is there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's trying to mention an experiment in science. There's a man called . . . Prabhupāda: That is your duty, to mention . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: He tries to show that the living system . . . *Prabhupāda: No, if we can see practically different seeds are exacting different color, different flavor, different chemicals. Everything is coming from the earth, sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī . Everything is coming. Rūpānuga: So the plant . . . Prabhupāda: Simply outside arrangement, how to take it. Rūpānuga: So in other words, the tree or the plant in agriculture takes the chemicals from the soil and . . . Prabhupāda: The seed, as soon as come in touch with the earth, the seed exacts particular chemical and everything from there. This is the arrangement. Rūpānuga: So that spirit soul in the seed, he is not creating anything; he is taking. Prabhupāda: Spirit soul, according to his karma , takes shelter of the situation. But the seed, the chemical composition, exacts the desired. Rūpānuga: It's all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Can the seed do that without the spirit soul being present within the seed? Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Can the seed extract anything without the spirit soul being present there? *Prabhupāda: No. Seed is instrumental. Just like you have to do something, you require an instrument. Actually, according to the desires of the living entity, he's given instrument, bhrāmayan sarva*-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). Yantra . You require something, you require a particular yantra or machine. So seed is practically the machine, and the living entity is using it to satisfy his desires. Hari-śauri: So that growth of matter, that's the matter is coming from outside, and the spirit soul is simply taking it and expanding his body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sadāpūta: Is earth still being manifested from ether? Like the description in *Bhāgavatam* is from sound, and then through different elements finally down to earth. Is that still happening today? Prabhupāda: Every . . . always happening. Nature's law is going on. Sadāpūta: Yes. So what I was wondering, is like earth still being manifested in living bodies from sound and so on, like the chemists . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. The process is going on. I've described. That is going on. Rūpānuga: So the spirit soul is in the seed, and the seed interacts with the other chemicals to make growth. So if the chemicals are not there in the earth, then that seed cannot make those chemicals. Prabhupāda: No, chemical is there in the earth. According to the seed it is exacted. Just like a chemist will analyze or they separate the ingredient, so much this percentage, so much that percentage, so much that. Everything is there. Similarly, within the earth everything is there. The seed is the instrument and the living entity is the exactor—what is that? Exactor? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. He's executor. Rūpānuga: He takes, utilizes. *Prabhupāda: Utilizer. Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). Svarūpa Dāmodara: Extracts. Rūpānuga: Extracts from. Prabhupāda: Extracts. Rūpānuga: Suppose like now, just like this Vedic injunction against artificial fertilizers in the soil, suppose, as modern farmers are doing, they use this artificial fertilizer and the soil becomes depleted in certain minerals. Prabhupāda: That means artificial is the same principle. You are living entity; by artificial fertilizer you are exacting something from the earth, the same principle. Rūpānuga: Now suppose we take so many chemicals from the earth and they may become a little depleted. Can those chemicals be replaced by the earth itself as the ongoing process of nature? Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from the earth. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is . . . Sadāpūta has an interesting point in science itself, that somebody tried to show that in the living body, when the life is within matter, the, ah, it doesn't follow the conservation of matter. Science, one of the basic principles of science, is that . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. All the living conditions are there in the matter, provided there is the living being, that's all. Just like a dead body, it is not that the living condition is finished. No. The living conditions are there. That particular soul has left that body, but the dead body is also full of ingredients of living condition. So many germs are coming out when the body is decomposed. You say decomposition, but even in that decomposed condition there is living condition. So the living conditions are already there, matter in any form. So how these rascals say there is no life in the moon planet? That is not possible. The living conditions are always there in the matter. This is the example. Now, a decomposed body, the living being has left, now it is dead matter, but still, the living beings are coming out. How it is? That means matter has always the potency to give shelter to the living entity. So it is impossible that there is no living being in the moon planet. It is bogus. We cannot accept it. Any condition there is provision for the living beings. We see actually, in the earth, in the air, in the water, in the fire, these five elements. Whatever you take, these five elements in different proportions. So the living . . . just like from perspiration living entities come out. It is impossible there is no living entities. That is bogus complete. You can challenge like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The living entities that they are familiar with. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Kūpa*-māṇḍūkya-nyāya, again. They know some certain type of living entities, that's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they think that all the living entities would be like that. *Prabhupāda: That is their kūpa*-māṇḍūkya-nyāya , Dr. Frog. But the fact is, any condition of material existence, there is possibility of living entity there. Sarva-ga, sthāṇur, acalo'yaṁ sarva-ga. Everywhere there is living entity. It is impossible to conclude that on other planets there is no living entity. It is not possible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it possible to do some experiments? Prabhupāda: You experiment. You see a dead body. It is obnoxious smelling, but living entities coming. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, to show that matter is generated by life, we want to do some experiment. Prabhupāda: That is there. Every day we are experiencing, huh? Just the same seed, and a living entity comes and it becomes a tree and it grows, big tree, huge body. And as soon as it is dead, the body is not increasing. This is experiment. (break) Rūpānuga: You mean two things. You mean that . . . *Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from life. Kṛṣṇa says—He's the supreme life—He says, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva*-samanvitāḥ (BG 10.8). He's the origin of everything, both matter and life, everything. So matter also coming from life, life is also coming from life. Therefore life is the original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So janmādy asya yataḥ is life. That is explained in the Bhāgavata. Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ. That source of everything is life and is fully conscious of everything what is happening. Anvayāt , indirectly and directly, fully conscious. That is life. Rūpānuga: So that matter is coming from Kṛṣṇa originally. Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from Him. Rūpānuga: Then the spirit soul, he has his activities, and he's active and the matter . . . Prabhupāda: He may be inactive, but his subtle desires is active. That is creating. Matter is supplying, that is pradhāna of life. Rūpānuga: So he creates the situation for the matter, but he doesn't create the matter itself. Prabhupāda: Yes. He wants, "I want this," and God is there, He asks material energy to supply the ingredients, and he creates the different situation. (break) That's all. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you very much, Prabhupāda. (indistinct comments) (end) Conversation A -- July 7, 1976, Baltimore Prabhupāda: . . . bora bora phet, lanka dinga ke matta kare het It was translated by a Mr. Row, a professor in the Presidency College, he translated, "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." When the problems of life is read, then they are melancholy, all these big, big scientists. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Hanumān, one monkey, he jumped over the Ceylon. So other monkeys also, they were very much proud that a monkey jumped over the ocean. And as soon as he was challenged, "Can you jump over?" melancholy. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Big, big monkey, big, big belly. These are the translation by Mr. Row, a professor of English in Presidency College. So what is the proposal now? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We want to discuss about the journal that we are proposing to have from the Institute. *Rūpānuga: So Ravīndra*-svarūpa Prabhu is going to be the editor, you approved in Māyāpur. We were thinking if you could give us some idea for a title. Because we were thinking so far that we would have a subtitle, like we have "Back to Godhead" then we have "the Magazine of the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement." So we would have the subtitle, "Bhaktivedanta Institute" or "Journal of the Bhaktivedanta Institute," but maybe you would like to have a title of the journal. So we wanted to know if you had some hint. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You can title, entitle, Sa*-vijñāna . *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sa*-vijñāna ? Devotees: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Jñānaṁ me paramaṁ guhyaṁ yad vijñāna*-samanvitam. What is that Bhagavad-gītā verse? Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ pravakṣyāmi tad vijñānam . . . Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Seventh Chapter. Rūpānuga: That is good, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That is a very nice title. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What about a subtitle? Pradyumna: "I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge, both phenomenal and noumenal, by knowing which there shall remain nothing further to be known." Prabhupāda: Yes. Nothing further to be known. *Pradyumna: Sa*-vijñānam *Rūpānuga: Sa*-vijñānam . So we can say " Sa-vijñānam , Journal of the Bhaktivedanta Institute." Is that all right? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sa*-vijñānam. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Do we need some sort of translation maybe? Devotee: On the inside cover we can have this verse . . . Prabhupāda: You can give this verse. Devotee: Give the verse on the inside. That can be the motto. Prabhupāda: Is that nice title? Pradyumna: Scientific. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, sound very . . . Rūpānuga: It's a very good title. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in this journal we can publish from different disciplines of knowledge, from any branch of knowledge and principle. Devotee: Science, philosophy, economics, sociology. For the scholarly, academic community. *Prabhupāda: Yes, socially you can preach how this cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), how it is scientific. In the society, if there is . . . actually we have. Just like why these, maybe so-called scientists, but why the scientists are given so much importance? Because there is a brain. So if you make everyone equal, all śūdras , then who will be the brain? The brain is required. That is brāhmaṇa . So this, not this brain; *this brain is śūdra brain for everyone. But when the . . . but just like here is Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, or you are here. So you are not scientist from the very birth. You have been trained up how to become a scientist. Similarly, the birth is there. Whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. But you have to be trained up how to become first*-class brain. That is brāhmaṇa . You have to become truthful, you have to become controller of the senses, you have to become fully aware of things, of God, everything, full knowledge, then you become brain. People give scientists so much importance because there is brain. Brain, in the society, there must be brain. So without brain, how the society can go on? If you simply produce motor mechanic, then? *Brain must be there. Just like this is brain: Sanātana Gosvāmī is asking, ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa*-traya . This is brain. "I don't want some uncomfortable situation, but why it is enforced?" So when you make research into that, that is brain. And if we remain like animal, "All right, they are dragging me to the slaughterhouse, that's all right, let me go," that is not brain. Brain means that I am seeking after perfect happiness; *why I am not allowed to have this perfect happiness? That is brain. The question, if there is any remedy. They are doing this. Scientific brain means there are so many problems, they are trying to solve it. That requires brain. But because they are fool scientists, they do not know how to make a solution of the ultimate problem. They are making tiny problems, that's all. There is power shortage: all right, let us invent some substitute of petroleum. Brain is being taxed. Again it is finished, again another. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). But they are so dull brain, they do not raise the question that we are making solution of one problem, another problem is ready. That brain they have not. So how long we shall go on solving the problems, another problem, another problem? Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). He does not know that nature will not allow me to live peacefully. So we bring problems after problems. That is material life. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī . Everything is there. You discuss only Bhagavad-gītā , you'll get so many subject matter to think and write. This is brain. We are solving one problem; another problem is there. So why this is happening? If there is any situation without any problem? That is brain. Rūpānuga: We had another practical consideration. We were thinking that could BBT publish the journal? BBT would publish the journal? Prabhupāda: But whether you'll be able to publish regularly. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Quarterly, at the beginning. Rūpānuga: Four times a year. Every three months. *Prabhupāda: Because it must be very . . . sa*-vijñānam, it must be very scientific. Rūpānuga: Oh, yes. Without defect. Prabhupāda: That's all right, BBT will publish. Why not? Rūpānuga: We can provide the copying work and all the graphs and things, and then they would lay it out and do everything, like with your books. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just like other things. And it will be BBT property. That's all. Rūpānuga: Your property. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can also do it for the books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't it? It will be published by BBT, but coming out from Bhaktivedanta Institute. Devotee: That will be good for the Institute if the name is on that book. Prabhupāda: That's all right. From Bhaktivedanta publisher. Yes, that's all right. You can do something like that, there is no harm. But this world is a problem, but we want solution of the problem but we do not know how to solve it. Is it not? Do the scientists know? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are trying. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Not a single problem they have solved. Can you cite that this big problem they have solved? Rūpānuga: In fact you have said that they are creating a new problem each time. Prabhupāda: That is the nature. You cannot solve the problem. You will create problem. If you don't live natural life, then you will create problem. Just like the other than . . . creatures, other than human beings, they have no problem, because they are living naturally. So our human beings should also live natural life. Then his only problem is this birth, death, old age, and . . . that he will be able to solve. That is the difference. The birds and beasts, they are living natural life, but they have no capacity to solve the problem. They are living a natural life. But the human being has the capacity to solve the problem. Real problem is birth, death, old age and disease. But they do not touch the real problem. Hmm? They avoid it because they cannot solve it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They keep it for the future. They postpone. Prabhupāda: That is postdated check. "You take this million dollar check." "When shall I use it?" "After millions year you can cash it." This kind of propaganda no sane man will accept. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's like chemical evolution. Million years it will happen. Prabhupāda: Billion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, in a million years. *Prabhupāda: Then the answer is the chicken is better than you. He can give you life within seven days. Dr. Chicken is better. They are shameless. Not ordinary, because ordinary human being will become shameful to speak something nonsense. But they are shameless. In that Bengali, duḥkhānkata . One man, one ear was cut off. So in order to hide his cut*-off ear he was keeping this side to the river side and this side to the habitation side and then again his two ears were cut out. Then there is no question of hiding. Both of them were cut out. So these people are duḥkhānkata . When both the ears cut out, there is no shame. They will go on talking all nonsense. Because they accept, they are accepted. So many millions of years have passed in the history, nobody could do that, and they are giving hope that life will come after millions of years. Why million? Here is a chicken, he can give life within five days. What credit you'll get after millions of years? But they are duḥkhānkata , so shameless they can speak such nonsense and still pass on as scientists. Tibocham , I think. Duḥkhānkata . No shame. You do not feel that why you are talking nonsense. Am I right or wrong? Here is a chicken, insignificant animal, he is giving life within five days, and we are talking of millions of years, and still we are scientist, Dr. Frog. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are going to use that example in our preaching. Prabhupāda: And the thing is that these person, they are holding the . . . andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). A blind man, he has no eyes, and still, he's leader of other blind men. Is it possible? A blind man, he is blind man, he has no knowledge, and still, he's leading other blind men. This is a very dangerous position. He has no actually knowledge, simply speculating, putting theories and formulas, and they are leaders of the society. Rūpānuga: We have to stop this. Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise people are misled. It is not the duty of education to mislead people. The real knowledge should be given. They should know that. To become a great misleader and take some title, that is not good. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The other morning you were . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda was mentioning about the Institute, the Bhaktivedanta Institute. So is there anything else that Your Divine Grace wants to . . .? Prabhupāda: Institute, you have got sufficient subject matter as I was describing, this original source of life and the planetary system, as you are going to make planetarium. Who can say about so many planets in the sky? Who has got sufficient knowledge? They cannot even give . . . they think that moon is the nearest planet, but we do not think like that. But still they are unable to give sufficient knowledge about the moon. It is not vacant. It cannot be vacant. We don't find any part of the world vacant. There is living entities. This earth planet is part of the universe, and the moon is also part of the universe. If it is not vacant, how that can be vacant? You have got dust there, here we have got dust—you have got rocks there, here we have got rocks. And why it is vacant? We find in the dust also there is life. When we walk on the beach, it is simply sand, there are so many crabs. They are immediately flying, running, "Oh, here is a man coming. Enter into the hole." So even the dust, in the sand, there is life. So why not there? In the water there is life, within the sand there is life, in the air there is life—everywhere there is life. Why it should be vacant? Hmm? What is the opinion of the scientists? How . . .? We are layman, talking like layman, but why there should not be life? And in the śāstra we get there is life. Not only moon; *every planet is full of living entities. Jagat*-kīrṇa . There is human being, there is animal, everything. How it can be vacant, God's creation? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they cannot see, so . . . Prabhupāda: See . . . you cannot see your father; that does not means there is no father who begot you. That is no . . . they cannot see . . . do they say like that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They cannot see that, so they cannot prove by experiment, so . . . Prabhupāda: What experiment? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just from experience also. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: They go and look, and that's all they can do. They want to go and see for themselves, so they say they have gone to the moon planet, and they say: "We have not found life." Prabhupāda: We say you have not gone. I have not seen you, that you have gone there; you say only. How can I believe? Vipina: They show you pictures, and it was on the TV. Prabhupāda: That is also, you have made picture. I have not gone and seen that. How can I believe you? The same argument. You say that you have gone to moon planet, but I have not seen that you have gone there. How can I believe you? Vipina: Is there some other way we can argue with them, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, no, that's . . . answer this question, that you say you have not seen. I say yes, that's all right, because you did not see, therefore you don't believe. But I did not see you also that you have gone to moon planet. How can I believe you? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: How is it possible to deceive so many people? Prabhupāda: Whether it is not possible or possible, but if you put this argument, that I have not seen, that I can say that I have . . . (end) Conversation A -- July 8, 1976, Washington D.C. (Conversation with Dr. Sharma) Prabhupāda: Give little, a small pot. Hari-śauri: Some prasādam ? Dr. Sharma: Prabhupāda, you have given such beautiful temples, so many devotees, now to have a point of jump so that all India and all the world and other people can join in this. Your answers today were very penetrating. That can help a lot, saying that people can work outside but still be devotees, and if they can chant, if they can devote work, and if they can submit all the fruits of their action, if this can be somehow made available, this particular . . . Prabhupāda: It is available. Dr. Sharma: Yes, but these few questions only, the answers, that these are from you and these are there, then it will be a point of jump in the movement. It will be a big jump in the movement. And what can we do . . .? Prabhupāda: So come and join us and help us. Dr. Sharma: I would be most honored to do it, and I am trying from the outside. Prabhupāda: No, you are in Washington? Dr. Sharma: Yes, I am in Washington. Prabhupāda: So organize here. Dr. Sharma: I certainly will be. Prabhupāda: Talk with the scientists and everyone here. Dr. Sharma: I come two or three times a week for the temple, and I will be coming more. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: Your idea of the Institute is possibly the most magnificent idea, because that will bring all the scientists . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, actually it is. At least those who are Indians, let them join. It is Indian culture. *Dr. Sharma: Yes, it is such a wonderful thing. I was a hard*-core Vedāntist before I came, and I was not satisfied. I feel that by chanting one really changes. Yes, one changes. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Sharma: I bring all the Indian people I can, because I know, I am a scientist, I still believe in God. Prabhupāda: What is your subject matter? Dr. Sharma: I have four doctorates in four different areas. Prabhupāda: Oh? Dr. Sharma: I have a Ph.D. in chemistry, a Ph.D. in biochemistry, a Doctor of Science in clinical endocrinology. I have a Fellow of the Royal Institute of Chemistry of London, which is a higher Ph.D. I am in computer information and control engineering . . . Prabhupāda: Royal College of . . . that . . . what is is called? Dr. Sharma: Royal Institute of Chemistry, London. And I have a law degree. And I am in computer information and control engineering. Prabhupāda: (laughing) You are such a big man. Kindly join us and help us. Dr. Sharma: I would be most honored, and I'm slowly trying to work it out in such a way that I can . . . *Prabhupāda: No, the formula is all given in this Bhagavad*-gītā . *Dr. Sharma: I find your Bhagavad*-gītā most illuminating as compared to other Gītās I have read, the translations. *Prabhupāda: We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, that's all. Dr. Sharma: How can we best serve the movement? By joining it? I have joined it in a . . . Prabhupāda: Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā ( SB 10.22.35): "By life, by money, by intelligence, by words." Either four or three or two—at least one. Then it will be all right. Dr. Sharma: I'll be writing . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: . . . about the movement in scientific journals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: That I'll be writing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: And I'll be writing . . . Prabhupāda: That is dhiyā . Dr. Sharma: And I'll be writing . . . Prabhupāda: Vācaiḥ . Dr. Sharma: I'll also be writing, in scientific way, books about it. Prabhupāda: You write in our . . . we are going to publish one magazine. Dr. Sharma: 'Cause I think the movement is very scientific. Prabhupāda: Yes. (rings bell) (aside) So, call Svarūpa Dāmodara. Dr. Sharma: I shall write in books and give it to the editors here to use it the way they best can. I'll write it . . . I normally publish . . . I only last month got a medical prize, a large prize, for medicine. My name is known internationally, medical journals. So I'll submit it to the Book Trust and let them publish it. Prabhupāda: So, you are qualified medical man? Dr. Sharma: No, I am only in research. I am not qualified to practice medicine, but in clinical medical practice and clinical journals I am qualified. I used to be a full professor. Prabhupāda: From chemical point. Dr. Sharma: No, from medicine point of view. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Dr. Sharma: From medicine point. In physics and mathematics I'll write in those ways, and I'll submit it and let them use it the way they feel like it. Previously I was with the āśrama , and I was . . . Prabhupāda: Which āśrama ? Dr. Sharma: Kohasat. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Dr. Sharma: And before that with the Swami Rama Tirtha Mission in New York. I was a follower of Vivekananda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Sharma: And at the Belur Math in Belur Math Dakshineswar in Calcutta. But I find that by really chanting . . . I was crying to God, literally, at night, that "Find me the path again," and then I found your movement. And I find it, yes, it does make a difference. I was also amazed that evening when the first two days ago I was thinking I will ask you five ślokas of *Gītā* to give me. Out of that, you discussed four. And I was meditating on Haridwar, where I was born. All the time your face was appearing behind Ganges, and it was very strange phenomena. I do not know when I will be fortunate enough to have your darśana again, but in the meantime, I'm slowly . . . I feel that this movement you have done supernatural thing. Now, somehow . . . Prabhupāda: That's a great certificate, because it is coming from you. Dr. Sharma: It's a supernatural thing. I do not believe that it is natural. It is in the world again to be done. I have been here . . . to be able to convert these people, to be able to make devotees, is unusual. Prabhupāda: (aside) Where is Svarūpa Dāmodara? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That indemnity bond? I think I can pack it away until New York City. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I could take care of that and pack it away until we get to New York. Prabhupāda: Who will pack it? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think I put it on your desk in there. Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indemnity bond. But the letter has to be written also. Dr. Sharma: Today's discussion was possibly the most magnificent, and very clearly given, about people can be in work as well as . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Sharma: . . . devotees. This, today's discussion, if that is available in some publication form, just that much, then I shall be most happy to distribute it among all the Indians. Prabhupāda: Yes, do it. Dr. Sharma: I will do that among all the . . . *Prabhupāda: Sthāne sthitāḥ . . . that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's recommendation. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). You remain your place, but engage your body, tanu; vāk , your words; *and mind. Tanu*-vāṅ-manobhiḥ . Engage all these things for Kṛṣṇa. So tanu means senses. You hear about Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa. Then vān , automatically, words, and mind also. If you hear of Kṛṣṇa, you'll think of Him. In this way there is no need of changing the place. Sthāne sthitāḥ. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi : "My Lord, You are Ajita; *nobody can conquer You. But this person who has engaged his body, mind and words for Your service, he can conquer You." Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. This was spoken by Lord Brahmā, that is . . . there is no question of changing the position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never says so, neither śāstras . But in a regulative way there are steps: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. But on the transcendental platform these things are useless. Simply engage in the service of the Lord. That is mukti . Dr. Sharma: I am thinking that when the Institute is formed, I shall perform all the services, whatever are needed to help. Prabhupāda: Kindly do that. Dr. Sharma: I'll be doing that. I'll be writing now, and . . . Prabhupāda: Your family is also here? Dr. Sharma: Yes, I will be married very soon, in about a month. Hari-śauri: They said Svarūpa Dāmodara went down to the prasādam pavilion, so we sent someone down to find him. Prabhupāda: Oh. Good. Now here is . . . (Svarūpa Dāmodara enters) All right. Dr. Sharma: Yes, we think that you have done supernatural things. We can do at least just a little bit, just a little bit. Prabhupāda: Finishing touch. Dr. Sharma: Well, no, just a little bit. We may not be able to finish it, but we will be able to . . . Prabhupāda: No, the student does roughly, and the master gives the finishing touch, painting. Dr. Sharma: You are very kind. But we will try. It is supernatural. To me it is . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Now here is Dr. Sharma. He is Ph.D. in four subject matters, and besides that he is a lawyer, so he's very highly qualified man, and he wants to give his all aid so that . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we need his help. Prabhupāda: Yes. And he is convinced about our bonafideness of this movement. So by his example many other qualified Indians . . . and it is the business of the Indian. It is Indian culture. They are accepting. Present them most scientifically, and it will be a glory of India. Dr. Sharma: It is up to us to bring Kṛṣṇa's words now . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dr. Sharma: . . . to the world. He wanted us to do it. Prabhupāda: Yes, kindly do that. So you talk with him in detail how to. If you . . . whether our, this branch will be situated. They say here it is good? Svarūpa Dāmodara: For Institute? Yes. I am also going to Boston to see the facilities there. Prabhupāda: But he can write. He give you. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes, he can furnish it in so many ways, and we are going to need Sharma's help, because he's in the government agency in the scientific field, so . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. If he wants to help us, he can help us in so many ways. Dr. Sharma: Yes, I'll be very much honored to help. Prabhupāda: And he's convinced. He's not an ordinary person. He's convinced. So let us take his help and . . . Dr. Sharma: I'll see what the government and the foundations . . . I can go to the foundation to help it. Once the Institute is formed, I can go to the foundations to get the money from them both to support the movement, for the Institute, for education. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dr. Sharma: Once we get started on that . . . you must be very tired now. You have a . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Today is Ekādaśī also. Dr. Sharma: I do not know when I will be fortunate to have your darśana again, but I certainly think God will be again give me the blessing to have your darśana . India is fortunate to have . . . Prabhupāda: We shall see every moment, every day with our work. If the work is going on, then I see you, you see me. (laughs) Dr. Sharma: And I think that Vivekananda came here before. He brought some things. After that, it was nothing was brought out. The only thing which has been brought out which is genuine, which is really in the benefit of Indian . . . Prabhupāda: Indian culture, it is really a fact. Dr. Sharma: These are the only two things which I have seen. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you very much. Jaya . Take this. Dr. Sharma: I will remember you always out of seeing you in this. Prabhupāda: Your full name? Dr. Sharma: Dinesh. Prabhupāda: Very nice name. Dr. Sharma: Dinesh Sharma. Prabhupāda: Dīna bandhu, dīneśa . (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. All right. Dr. Sharma: God's kindness has brought me to your feet. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Arrival -- July 9, 1976, New York Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do they own it or lease it? Rāmeśvara: They lease. The city builds it, and they lease it from the city. Prabhupāda: What is the name of this airport? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: La Guardia. Prabhupāda: La Guardia, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are three airports. Prabhupāda: I think these buildings are not ten years ago. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. New York has three airports. Rāmeśvara: This is the oldest airport. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kennedy, La Guardia, and there's one just across the river, Newark. It's in New Jersey, but it's considered part of the Port Authority. Prabhupāda: I hear, Māyāpur Project, you have not been sending money? Rāmeśvara: Not yet. Prabhupāda: They want money. Gargamuni has written. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they've been calling for money regularly, but we have not been able to send them any. Rāmeśvara: I met with Gurukṛpā Swami, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he has just transferred from the Japanese collections 125,000 dollars. He is writing one letter. Prabhupāda: Better . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ten thousand a month. Prabhupāda: Not all at a time. Management is not very good. So . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Little by little. Prabhupāda: One lakh will be sufficient. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For carrying on the work. Prabhupāda: Things are going on here nice? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're gradually improving. Actually, everything has just begun here; it's by no means complete. You'll see that all of the work is just in progress. It's not . . . it will take a while to make it very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Manage nicely. Kṛṣṇa is giving us everything; there is no scarcity. If we simply sincerely work, Kṛṣṇa will give us intelligence, everything. By His mercy everything is available. That is Kṛṣṇa—He can give you anything. (pause) Prabhupāda: That Brooklyn Bridge, I think? That iron bridge? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there is a Brooklyn Bridge, but we're not going over it. Prabhupāda: Sometimes I was coming there and sitting down near the bridge. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Near the water? You were sitting near the water part? Prabhupāda: Yes, that river. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a famous bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge. It's the biggest expansion*-type bridge. Prabhupāda: Because I was on that Bowery Street; it is not very far away. So I was coming, walking there, and sitting under the bridge. And thinking, "Whether I shall return to India?" (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said you were always inquiring when the boat was returning. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is one sub*-railway station . . . beginning with F? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fulton Street? Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fulton Street. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Sometimes I am going there. Fulton. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's very well known. Rāmeśvara: It's in the Village. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This bridge we're going on is called the Triborough Bridge. Prabhupāda: Oh. This is over New York? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it goes over the East River. Prabhupāda: That Hudson Street? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hudson River is on the other side. This is going on the east side of the city. Prabhupāda: That subway that goes to the city office? There are so many bridges. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many, yes, many, many bridges. Every day about seven million people come into this island of Manhattan from the other boroughs, and they go back. From your room . . . our building is very close to the Empire State Building, so from your room you have a very nice view of it. Prabhupāda: Oh. So Los Angeles everything is going nice? Rāmeśvara: Everything is very nice. We just had a big saṅkīrtana marathon for this Fourth of July, and they distributed up to thirty thousand Back to Godheads in just a few days. Prabhupāda: (referring to garland) Make it smaller. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it's all one garland, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You can make smaller. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Rāmeśvara: We had a good success because we sent out all the householders to the parks. During that holiday everyone goes to the parks. So the householders took their children and they set up a tent, and one of them stayed there babysitting, and all the others went out distributing your books. So in that way they went out on traveling saṅkīrtana . *Prabhupāda: What is the name of that boy? He sold one Caitanya*-caritāmṛta to a chemist. Rāmeśvara: Praghoṣa? *Hari-śauri: No, not Praghoṣa. He's originally from New York, big, heavy, thick*-set boy. Prominent features. Begins with J. *Prabhupāda: One chemist of Karanpur, he sold one book, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , then he talked with me. He's pleased. Rāmeśvara: The chemist? *Hari-śauri: Yes. He sold him a Caitanya*-caritāmṛta and then he brought him over and Prabhupāda spoke to him. Prabhupāda: New York climate is very nice? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice. Like Calcutta. Hari-śauri: On July the Fourth Prabhupāda went and drove into Washington to see the fireworks. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Hari-śauri: In the evening. We had traveling kīrtana all around the city. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think this is enough, Prabhupāda? I'll tie it together now. Prabhupāda: No, no. Hari-śauri: We didn't see much of the firework display, but he liked the kīrtana . It was amazing. The reaction was just amazing. People were dancing and chanting and waving when we went past. Prabhupāda was in ecstasy. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: New York climate is very nice. Sometimes now it rains a little bit, then shining. So just like Bengal. Rāmeśvara: I observed that these devotees at New York, they've practically given up sleeping this past week to prepare everything for your arrival. Prabhupāda: (laughs) They are so kind to me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they worked very hard. *Rāmeśvara: It reminded me that time when the Press devotees stayed up all the time to get those Caitanya*-caritāmṛta volumes. The same spirit. They just stopped eating and sleeping. Prabhupāda: That is love. These things can be done only out of love. Rāmeśvara: There were some hired carpenters and painters, and their last day of working was, I think, Wednesday. So yesterday and this morning they came in voluntarily. They stayed up the whole night without sleep, and they continued working. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They worked now from eight o'clock yesterday, and they just finished this morning. Straight through the night. Prabhupāda: They are professional? Rāmeśvara: Professional, but by the association of the devotees . . . Prabhupāda: They become . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of them now says that he wants to rent a room for the whole year in our building. Rāmeśvara: He loves the prasādam . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says he likes the prasādam . Prabhupāda: Why don't you stay here? No rent; you stay here. You are devotee, you stay here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a celibate right now. He's not married, bachelor. Prabhupāda: Take prasādam , stay here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what he wants, and let him give part of his income. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because of this rain the atmosphere is actually very clean now. You notice that. It's not very much smog, compared to usual. This is the FDR Drive. Prabhupāda: These are cooperative buildings? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda. These are lower*-middle class cooperative buildings. This is the East Side. Prabhupāda: I selected one cooperative apartment, they wanted five thousand dollars. (laughs) I had no money. Very nice apartment, near city office. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Downtown. This is First Avenue here, at about 116th Street, where we are now. *Prabhupāda: Our building is on the Fifty*-fourth? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty*-fifth Street. Just near Broadway, one block from Broadway. Prabhupāda: Broadway is important place. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very important. Our building is right in the midst of the theater, restaurant and entertainment section of the city. Prabhupāda: In New York I feel little homely, because first I came here. I was loitering on the street here and there. From 1965 September to '67 July, continually I stayed in New York. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two years. Rāmeśvara: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja gave one class this morning. So he was explaining that we cannot understand the good fortune of this city that you have come here. We cannot begin to estimate how fortunate this city is. Prabhupāda: Yes, I, when I decided I shall go foreign country, I never thought of going to London; I thought of coming here. Generally they go to London, but I thought, "No, I shall go to New York." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very progressive. Prabhupāda: (laughs) I do not know. It is Kṛṣṇa's dictation. I could have gone. London was nearer. But I thought, "No, I shall go to New York." Sometimes, I think, I was coming this part. Aimlessly . . . I think the United Nation building is somewhere here? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's a little further down. It's on this avenue, it's on Forty*-fourth Street, and we are on Ninety-sixth Street. We are a little bit uptown. *Prabhupāda: And Ninety . . . yes. That Indian Consulate office is Sixty*-fourth. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sixty*-fourth Street, and just off Central Park. Prabhupāda: I was coming there sometime, talking with the officers. One Mr. Malhotra was there, he was showing me, very friendly. He arranged some meeting in Consulate office. They had some organization, Tagore Organization. Second Avenue we'll come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is First Avenue, then comes Second. Prabhupāda: Yes, sometimes walking on the Second Avenue. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're going to go up to Central Park and then go along the Park. *Prabhupāda: This is Ninety*-sixth? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Ninety*-sixth Street. Prabhupāda: There was fire in this building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are many fires in this city, I notice. Prabhupāda: It is due to the warm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, due to the warm, and also the buildings, some of them are old, and they are not built properly. Prabhupāda: Not taken care of. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Our building is also an old building. It's seventy years old. But it's made of solid stone and concrete, brick. Prabhupāda: Then it will never get old. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's extremely . . . Prabhupāda: You have to simply change the plastering. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, painting, plastering. Prabhupāda: Then it will continue new for hundreds of years. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's built like that. It's all steel reinforced everywhere. Prabhupāda: Ah, then it is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's rated . . . it has the top fire rating in the city. Prabhupāda: After three years it will require little repairing, then it will keep new always. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right now we're in the process of simply repainting it, giving it a fresh coat of paint to make it new, because they had not painted it for about ten years, former owners. Prabhupāda: It should be painted every three years, then it will be all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Rāmeśvara: On the outside as well. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything. Then the building will keep very fresh always. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is Second Avenue? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is I think Third Avenue. Next comes Lexington Avenue. Prabhupāda: This is black area? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Puerto Rican and black. This city has as many, Puerto Ricans as Puerto Rico does. So many Puerto Rican people come here, because it's part of . . . it's a possession of the United States. So the East Side is Puerto Ricans and the West Side . . . Prabhupāda: Generally they are worker class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. This is Park Avenue. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: Some of the billboard signs are even Portuguese also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spanish. Prabhupāda: They speak Spanish? Rāmeśvara: Puerto Ricans speak Spanish. Prabhupāda: Why don't you sell Spanish books to them? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We do. We distribute here Spanish books from New York. *Rāmeśvara: Today Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja is sending to the printer the last volume of the First Canto in Spanish, another volume of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam in Spanish. And before you leave New York he will give you . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll give him . . . Rāmeśvara: . . . a new book in Spanish, the *Kṛṣṇa Book*, Volume One. Prabhupāda: Oh. Rāmeśvara: That is coming in a few days. *Prabhupāda: You have seen Chinese Bhagavad*-gītā ? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we have seen that. Prabhupāda: You have got it? Hari-śauri: Yes, in the back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have it also. I sent a copy to Peking. Prabhupāda: He has done very nice. First six chapters. So in three books it will be finished. Hari-śauri: The next six chapters are coming out soon. Prabhupāda: That boy is doing very nice. Yaśomatī? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sūta. Prabhupāda: Sūta, yes, very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Madison Avenue. Here is Fifth Avenue. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Central Park. I was coming to Central Park from the other side, Seventy*-second Street. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our temple is four blocks from Central Park. Just walking distance. The mothers and children go there. Prabhupāda: Central Park? Very nice. So you have advantage of the park. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. And on Sundays we put on saṅkīrtana in the park, and then the people are invited to come to the temple for the feast. Now, because of the good weather, many people leave the city on the weekend, so the numbers of people who are coming on the Love Feast days is not as much as before the summer and after the summer. Now they like to go to the beaches and resort areas, where it's cool and there's water. Prabhupāda: The zoo is here also here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jewish people? Prabhupāda: No, zoo, zoology. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Zoo, zoology. Yes, Central Park Zoo is on about Sixty*-fourth Street, Sixty-fifth Street, just off of the east. Prabhupāda: All big, big buildings. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's New York. The population now of the greater New York area is eighteen million. Prabhupāda: Eighteen million? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: It was ten million. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it has very much increased now. That includes the outlying . . . Prabhupāda: How it is increased? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it includes the outlying suburbs, which have become very developed. Rāmeśvara: Long Island. It includes Long Island. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just as many people are living here now, and many, many more people are living on the outskirts. Rāmeśvara: And Queens. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Queens and Brooklyn, much more people are living there than before. Queens and Long Island especially. *Prabhupāda: So Bali*-mardana is doing all right? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he and I stay together. We get up at two*-thirty in the morning, chant sixteen rounds before ārati , saying Gāyatrī strictly on time, eating very little, and he reads a great deal of the day, two or three hours he reads, and he's also preaching, giving classes. Prabhupāda: His wife? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She's engaged in taking care of the Life Members, Indian Life Members who come, and the guest rooms. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. She is expert. (chuckles) She's very expert. She can do nicely. And during winter here it will be so cold you cannot stand even. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, after I left Hawaii, I went to see you in Hawaii, all of the work that we did in this building began from when I returned here. So it's been a great push for the last month or month and a half, I think. They did not do much improvement on the temple the first five or six months they were here. They were just adjusting, I guess. Prabhupāda: Not proper leader. What is this building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the, ah . . . Rāmeśvara: Metropolitan Museum of Art. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Metropolitan Museum of Art. Very famous art museum. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . saw fireworks in Washington. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's the Empire State Building, Prabhupāda, straight ahead. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: I think one day our art paintings will also be in these museums, because our artists are becoming as expert as anyone. Prabhupāda: Must be. Rāmeśvara: Already people are coming and offering minimum one thousand dollars to buy a painting. In Los Angeles, I have sold some paintings for a thousand dollars each. Prabhupāda: Originals. Rāmeśvara: Original and some copies (laughter) also. Prabhupāda: Copy, how do you make copy? Rāmeśvara: We have some artists practicing. So he makes a copy of the original, and I sell it for five hundred dollars. Half the price of the original. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good business. Rāmeśvara: But that will increase. You can get ten thousand, twenty thousand dollars for one painting in the future, because they are paying that much now for inferior work. Prabhupāda: Who is painting nice? Muralī? Rāmeśvara: Muralīdhara, Jadurāṇī, Parīkṣit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Parīkṣit is wonderful. Prabhupāda: Parīkṣit, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He's expert. We have one boy in the temple here who has been doing murals on the walls in the temple room, and he's done it very quickly with a technique called airbrush. Instead of using a brush, you use a spray gun, and you spray the paint on. It's a modern technique. It's especially good in murals and things. Prabhupāda: First of all they draw in lines? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And then they spray on the paint. He finishes a painting in two or three days, big murals. (laughs) He's expert. He's known as the human camera. He can copy any picture onto a wall. His name is Viṣṇu dāsa. *Prabhupāda: Expert. So why does he not go to Māyāpur*-candrodaya . . .? (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's meant to go, after he finishes the temple. You already told him to go last time. Rāmeśvara: We knew you would say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were talking this morning how as soon as you see his work, you'll say he should go to Māyāpur. He paints very quickly. We could actually send him with that spray gun. Prabhupāda: Electric spray? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I don't know if they use electricity, or do you use gas? The thing is that he can paint directly, just as fast. Rāmeśvara: Yes, I had him in L.A. painting with a brush. (indistinct background conversation about painting) Prabhupāda: What is this building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't recognize it. Oh, the Frith Collection, it's an art museum. This whole street is full of art museums. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's one gentleman named Frith. Rāmeśvara: This taxi driver is saying Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Our Jayānanda was driving taxi and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and one day (laughter) he brought to me five thousand dollars. Rāmeśvara: And you used it to print *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* . Prabhupāda: Huh? Rāmeśvara: Was that the time? Prabhupāda: I think, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You kept it then. *Prabhupāda: I kept it. It was given for publishing Bhagavad*-gītā , but I think Macmillan took it. So I spent it for . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then you put him in charge to sell all the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*, I remember. (Prabhupāda laughs) Jayānanda: Didn't sell too many books, though. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I thought he was the best, most appropriate person to drive you. Prabhupāda: He was chanting and driving. Very good boy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cyavana has been here also. Prabhupāda: Just train him. He is good boy. He has fallen down, just take care of him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, actually the work here needs, you'll see, this building, it actually requires four or five big leaders. Prabhupāda: One may fall down, but you have to take care. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's much better now. Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll do. He's good worker, if you can train him, he's a good worker. He can do very nice. He has fallen in māyā , just take care of him. What can be done? He's good worker, very good worker. He can do intelligent service. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very intelligent, very high class, nice devotee. Prabhupāda: He knows accounting. There was no guide, he became alone . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's exactly what he said. Prabhupāda: . . . and became spoiled. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said there was just too much for himself alone. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difficulty. As soon as there is lack of good association, one falls a victim. What about that boy, Ṛṣi Kumāra? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he's doing great. He's taken up joint charge of the restaurant. Prabhupāda: He's also very good boy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All day long he cooks, and after he cooks, then the people take the prasādam in the restaurant, he goes out and preaches to them. Prabhupāda: He's an able worker. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he goes out and he leads a hari*-nāma party on the street. He's very enthusiastic to make this restaurant very successful. Prabhupāda: But keep watch on him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For the women. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He gets deluded. Well, you know what we've done with all of these people, Prabhupāda, we've . . . Prabhupāda: If they are disturbed, let them marry. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He doesn't want. He says he knows it's a waste of time, marriage. What we have done with Ṛṣi Kumāra and Bali*-mardana is that we are living with them. Like Ṛṣi Kumāra lives with Ādi-keśava Swami. Prabhupāda: Somebody must be with him. Then it is all right. Not alone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've put them with the senior . . . Prabhupāda: Either Cyavana or him, some experienced devotee must be with him. Then they . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do nicely. Prabhupāda: And I think Ṛṣi Kumāra is a good cook also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: My personal opinion he's the best cook that I've so far seen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Since he has come here, the prasādam in the restaurant has at least doubled in the quality. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Completely different prasādam . He's learned the Gujarati style. Kachorīs , samosā , every kind of special prep. When we stayed in Kailash Shiksharya's house when we were first in Bombay, the things that those cooks were cooking, he knows how to cook. Very high class Marwari and Gujarati cooking. Prabhupāda: He's very intelligent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Maṇibandha, he's another one. He's cooking with Ṛṣi Kumāra. Prabhupāda: He's also very intelligent boy, but sometimes spoiled. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a lot of them here. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, we have to take care of so many souls. (taxi*-driver yells) What does he say? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said you have a nice car. That's good they like the car. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Ask "Why don't you come here?" (laughter) "Why you are driving taxi? Come here." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's amazing how everybody is looking at us. *Prabhupāda: Now, formerly it was thirty*-five, now it is sixty-five? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda. Everything has doubled in price. This car is very ordinary, but it is because you are in it, Prabhupāda, that they are looking. Ordinarily it is not such a special car. Prabhupāda: What is the maker? Hari-śauri: LTD. What is it? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's the same, more or less the same car that you had when you were driving in Los Angeles. Hari-śauri: The same as what you had in Melbourne also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a Ford. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles, this was Mercedes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Mercury. Right? Mercury? Prabhupāda: No, this is nice car. Rāmeśvara: It's their version of Cadillac, Mercury's version of Cadillac. They cannot understand. Because we say we are not after material opulence for ourselves, they cannot understand that we drive in these cars. *Prabhupāda: They think that we unnecessarily criticize. But we require everything. But just like a man, when he's alive his decoration, his nice dress, everything is very good. But if he's dead, then it is useless. Similarly, without spiritual consciousness we are dead, because the body is dead. Because the spirit soul is there, therefore it is moving. The important point is the spirit soul. So if you are simply taking care of the body very nicely, that means you are decorating the dead body. What is the value of it? It is clear? The body is important because the soul is there. So long the life is there, if you decorate the body everyone will appreciate. But if you decorate the dead body, people will say: "What a fool he is!" Aprāṇasyaiva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka*-rañjanam (Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya 3.11). That is simply a popular applause, "Ah, the dead body is decorated." But what is the value of it? Similarly, without spiritual knowledge, this dead civilization simply on the bodily concept of life, it is ludicrous. That we have to condemn. Take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then everything is . . . just like one, if there is zero, then it is ten. Another zero, hundred. But without one, simply zero, it is only useless. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That one is Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: And Kṛṣṇa's representative. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya . Prabhupāda: One, if there is one, then zero has value. If there is no one, then simply increasing zeroes, what do we get for that? That is the position. There is no spiritual understanding; they are simply after material advancement. Therefore despite all advancement materially, they are not happy. You cannot be. Now they are trying to bring life by material combination. It is all impossible, childish. Our scientists, they have come? No. Hari-śauri: Yes. Sadāpūta. Yes, they are all here, aren't they? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara here? Hari-śauri: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah. Prabhupāda: Mādhava and Svarūpa. Hari-śauri: Three of them, Mādhava, Svarūpa and Sadāpūta also. Rāmeśvara: Ever since we published that article that they wrote in Back to Godhead , many people have been impressed that, "Oh, Ph.D's, they are accepting this movement." Many Indian guests in Los Angeles, they all comment that they have read this article, and now they are taking our movement ser . . . Prabhupāda: Now I have collected one Indian, four items he is Ph.D. He is Ph.D. in chemistry, Ph.D. in engineering . . . Hari-śauri: Dr. Sharma? Prabhupāda: Yes. And Ph.D. in pathology. Four. And he's lawyer also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is he going to do? Prabhupāda: He's going to help our, this . . . (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are bookstalls. Look at that. Barnes and Noble, they are putting up bookstalls here. Rāmeśvara: Another Ph.D. from India has joined our movement in Denver. He's just moved into the temple. He has a Ph.D. in psychology. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are horse carriages here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just there. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is Fifty*-seventh? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty*-ninth. You don't want to turn here, huh, Jayānanda? Do you? Go up Fifty-ninth, it would be nicer. This is where the parade begins. From here down, straight. All the way down Fifth Avenue. *Prabhupāda: The Ratha*-yātrā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. From here all the way down, we go all the way down to the park. You know that park? Washington Square Park. All the way down, three rathas . It's the biggest avenue. Prabhupāda: Is there any hour limit? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Two or three hours it will take. You've got to get on the right side, Jayānanda. Prabhupāda: It appears more congested than before. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, business is increasing. Prabhupāda: Population are increased. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had a festival to celebrate the Fourth of July in the Battery, down at Battery Park. Four million people attended. We sold prasādam there. Over one thousand dollars of prasādam (laughs) was sold from our prasādam cart. Prabhupāda: They liked? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. They were selling kachorīs , sandwiches. Prabhupāda: This Doubleday Company, they take our books? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah . . . Rāmeśvara: I don't know. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm not sure. Rāmeśvara: I don't know. Generally the bookstores, they don't take our books because our distributors are distributing on the street in front of the bookstore; *they say it is competition. But the college bookstores, they all take our books. We just got a report from Satsvarūpa Mahārāja that this past month of June in America they sold seventy*-five standing orders. And that is remarkable, because all the schools are closed in June, and still they sold them books. They closed for the summer, and still they are ordering your books. Prabhupāda: In this street I think there is one library office . . . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's Fifty . . . it's either Fifty*-fifth or Fifty-third, and it's called . . . it's one of main sub-branches. Yes, it's a very well known one. Prabhupāda: "Free rent"? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Free rent. Rent a safe deposit box for one year and we'll give you an extra six months free." But first you have to pay for one year. Chemical Bank. Huge buildings now everywhere. Prabhupāda: This is Rockefeller? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda. Now everything looks like the Rockefeller Plaza. All of the buildings are built in that same style. Very opulent. Now every day I look out the window of our building and I think when it will come that we will have one of these buildings. It won't be long. You can see how big these are, Prabhupāda. This is Sixth Avenue. Prabhupāda: So we are between Sixth Avenue and . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're between Eighth Avenue and Ninth. Actually, our building can be seen from here. Hare Kṛṣṇa is on the outside of it. Hari-śauri: I can see it, just on the left. Rāmeśvara: Straight ahead. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's on the left straight ahead. It's a brown building on the left side. Hari-śauri: There's a tree on the top. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has gold letters going down the side of it saying Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Hari-śauri: It's the brownish one with the white . . . little white cabin*-type thing on the top of it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're very lucky. We rented a garage one block away which can house four buses and twenty vans. Only one block away from it. It's very unusual. Otherwise . . . Prabhupāda: You have taken the whole garage? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, otherwise it's not possible to get parking space in New York. See the "Hare Kṛṣṇa" now, Prabhupāda, on the side of the building? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayānanda, maybe you should park on the right side. We can walk across the street rather than getting out . . . Rāmeśvara: Yes, good idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pull over if you can on the right side, then Prabhupāda can see the building from across the street. (break) Yes, at least for the next five or ten years. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Then you'll have to change again. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then we want the Empire State Building. (laughter) We have a nice banner which flies in front of the building also. I think you should park on the right side, Jayānanda, unless . . . (indistinct discussion on where to park) All right, park on the left. See the banner? Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Conversation -- July 10, 1976, New York Prabhupāda: So one thing is that when they are so much careful, that means the book is reacting. Otherwise why they are so careful that they may not come? What do you think? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, sometimes they specifically say: "The others may come, but that one man, we don't want him here." (laughs) He gets out twice as many books as anybody else. Prabhupāda: So, many books or not many books, why they are so much afraid of distributing these books? Devotee (1): It means that the book is potent. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (1): It means that the books are potent. We are affecting the material energy. Prabhupāda: Everywhere in government, India especially, they do not want this movement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the general tendency is . . . Prabhupāda: But people are appreciating, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness catches." Hari-śauri: Catches on. Prabhupāda: They're now appreciating. Devotee (1): Was that a recent article? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the general people are taking it up more and more. I mean there is a growing number of interested persons. Prabhupāda: That he has written. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not only are there numbers of us increasing, but there are many people who come once a week, once every month, who get magazine regularly. That number is increasing beyond what we can imagine, because it's due to the book distribution, Prabhupāda. We're coming due to two things—first the books, and second the association of devotees. But there's a general mass of people that are coming who are just getting the book, and they are beginning to follow simply on account of reading your books. Devotee (1): This is a big article. Wow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's another magazine article like that. *Hari-śauri: Rādhā*-vallabha's got it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is he? Hari-śauri: I don't know. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I asked . . . there's another very special magazine came out, and I asked Rādhā*-vallabha to bring it and present it to you. It's from New York, but I wanted him to read some of the things. He read the whole thing. It's a whole magazine devoted to meditation groups, and they have featured our society as the best. It's clear . . . Prabhupāda: By our features. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our Society was featured more than any others. They mentioned Maharishi and so many others, but they gave . . . Prabhupāda: We are also mentioned. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They gave us the most space in the magazine. Hari-śauri: They did it in sections. There was a bit about kīrtana , there was a section about shaving the head, there's a whole section about Kṛṣṇa prasādam , how to offer it and cook it and everything. It was very nice. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's getting it ready. He wants to read you certain things in the magazine. He likes to prepare things to discuss with you, Rādhā*-vallabha, controversial topics. Prabhupāda: What is that controversial? (laughter) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's so nice. He reads things so on the walks, he can throw out scientific arguments and other things. He likes to do that. It's really funny, there's one article, one advertisement in the back of this magazine, meditation magazine. It says: "Special offer: Send in twenty*-five dollars and you will learn how to do transcendental meditation in one evening. And if you are not satisfied, you get your money back, but you get to keep your own private mantra ." This book is a real . . . it really shows you what the whole scene on spiritual groups is, how phony they are, except ours. Ours appears very legitimate from the magazine. But these others are complete hypocrisy. Hari-śauri: He especially canes Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he hates him. Hari-śauri: They did an experiment, and they tried out . . . if one chants . . . he claims that you have to have a special mantra that comes from him, and that will give you the bliss from transcendental meditation. But they did experiments where they just made up any mantra , just a few words, and concentrated on that, and the effect was exactly the same—sleep. They enter into a . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Semiconscious. Hari-śauri: Yes, a very low conscious level. The metabolism is very much slowed down. The breathing and heart rate and everything goes right down, and they stay like that, completely relaxed, for twenty minutes, and then for a few minutes they come out. That is the . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can also do that; we'll hit them with our shoes. (laughter) For twenty minutes they can go unconscious. Free. We don't charge. Hari-śauri: This opening comment in this magazine is very good. It says: "What is surprising about the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is not its conquest of the West, the USA in particular. The cultural impact of this institution, borne on the shoulders of Westerners in the main, has already reached amazing proportions in India." Prabhupāda: That is my policy. Devotee (1): That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew. That's why they are afraid of you in India, Prabhupāda. The government is very much afraid. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Government is alarmed. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well how will they try to stop us? Prabhupāda: Through restrictive government. (door opens) Who is . . .? Let him come. Devotee (1): Here he comes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct discussion) Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu? Prabhupāda wanted to see that boy, Arjuna Mallik? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I went to find him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I sent someone to look for him, they haven't come back. You haven't seen him? It would be nice, because Prabhupāda wanted to see him. Prabhupāda: You know him? Arjuna Mallik? Hari-śauri: I only saw him just this morning. Prabhupāda: Just find him. Hari-śauri: But I have no idea where he's staying. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 703 is the room number. Prabhupāda: All right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara is looking. Hari-śauri: This first paragraph recognizes how in the last two years especially our esteem has improved. It says: "One has to see for oneself . . ." Prabhupāda: Ah, that Sadajivitlal you know. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, very well. Prabhupāda: He says about me that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has smeared the black carbon of all other svāmīs ." (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Black carbon. You know Sadajivitlal from Bombay. Devotee: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He used to get very angry. He said: "I like your Prabhupāda very much, but why does he have to criticize all of our gurus ?" Prabhupāda: Now he is realizing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because at Cross Maidan you were speaking very boldly that all these others are cheating. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are cheating. Is there any meaning that you pay so many dollars and take the mantra ? Mantra is such a thing for business? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In this meditation magazine one of the things that they sell, the special techniques is you take a ping*-pong ball, ping-pong, you know, that table tennis? And you cut it in half and you place the two halves on your eyes, and then that is called samādhi . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Who has said? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll show you the picture when he brings the magazine. They show a person very seriously meditating on two halves of a ping*-pong ball. You have to pay for it. (laughter) Devotee (1): Would you like to go up on the roof today, Prabhupāda? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda said the sun is too much. Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa, he's been doing all of our . . . he's practically done the whole arrangement for the Ratha*-yātrā. Jayānanda is building, and he has done all of the permits, advertising, publicity, the posters—working at least fifteen hours a day for the last month very hard, to make it a very successful festival. I was thinking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that Haṁsadūta was telling me that he is planning to make . . . Prabhupāda: I think this article was dictated by Haṁsadūta. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah. Prabhupāda: Our interviewer came. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was telling me that he was planning to make thousands of men, convert thousands of Indians. I was wondering, if thousands of Indians join us, how will the government feel? Prabhupāda: They cannot check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really. They won't stop us. Prabhupāda: If they want to stop it, it will increase. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, right. Especially in Bengal, as soon as the Bengalis know that something is against the government, then they get very vehement. Devotee: It's encouraging when they try to resist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They call us sāhībs . It says: "What urges the sāhībs and memsāhībs ?" That's how they refer to us. Prabhupāda: Our Māyāpur temple is known as sāhīb mandira . In Vṛndāvana, English, angrezi . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gopāla told me that the guesthouse is doing better. He said that only that eleven rooms right now are occupied by non paying guests, and out of the overall forty*-four rooms, only four rooms are occupied by devotees. The devotees have been shifted elsewhere. And Guṇārṇava has been managing. Prabhupāda: That Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa boy was in Vṛndāvana? Hari-śauri: Stoka Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Stoka. He has left. Hari-śauri: He's back in Los Angeles now. Prabhupāda: He does not stick anywhere. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. (looking at magazine) Whew! This picture of Ratha*-yātrā in London is very impressive. Prabhupāda: With smaller rathas . Hari-śauri: Yes, palanquins. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the crowd is bigger than ever. Devotee: Yes, huge crowd. *Ādi*-keśava: That's when we, ah . . . Toṣaṇa, isn't that the picture that you showed them to show what our carts look like? He told the police, to get our permit, that our carts were like those little small rathas , so that we could get the permit. He said that we were having a parade with hand-pulled floats. When they thought of hand-pulled floats, they thought of little wagons. Hari-śauri: They're going to get a shock. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's breaking the news to them slowly. Hari-śauri: We did that in Melbourne. But then gradually we let them see. Then they took us out for a trial run and everything. (break) Prabhupāda: Note down in the account book. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . presents us as a bona fide Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Vaiṣṇava cult. Says that the ISKCON center, the Māyāpur . . . "ISKCON plans to build in Māyāpur a world center for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will comprise an enormous temple . . ." Prabhupāda: This news has been very much advertised. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When will we begin? Prabhupāda: As soon as we get the land. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The land is coming along? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The land is coming along? Prabhupāda: Yes, government . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are going ahead with it. Prabhupāda: Two officials are in great favor: one Mr. Choudhuri, one Mr. Ganguli. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says that the temple will be so big that India has never seen such a huge temple. Prabhupāda: Choudhuri's wife has challenged that "If you are Hindu, then you will do it." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To her husband. Oh. (laughter) It tells about . . . it quotes you as saying that how you began this movement. Two boys joined you, Chuck and Bruce—Brahmānanda and Acyutānanda, Charles Barnett and Bruce Scharf. Prabhupāda: Charles is called Chuck? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (referring to prasādam ) What is that? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: (indistinct) . . . it's called rājkachorī . (laughter) *Bali*-mardana: Stuffed with dāl , potato, tamarind sauce and sour cream. Devotee (1): Ṛṣi's making up for lost time. Prabhupāda: Where you learned this? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: In Kailash Shaksharya's. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: From Kailash Shaksharya's cook. At least I learned something there. Prabhupāda: From that cook, Kailash's cook? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: Yes. *Prabhupāda: He was very expert. In India, a girl, if she could cook nicely, then she is perfect. There is a ceremony, it is called bahubhat . After marriage the girl comes to her father*-in-law's house and there is a ceremony called bahubhat . In that bahubhat , the girl is to cook and distribute this food to all the relatives of her husband. If they say it is excellent, then she is accepted in this family. *Bali*-mardana: What if they say it is not excellent? Prabhupāda: Nobody says. (laughter) But the ceremony is made. The social system in India is that, "If I do not accept your food, then I do not take you within my inner circle. You remain outside." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a great offense if you offer someone prasādam and they refuse. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means I am not accepting you as intimate. And if he accepts, then you cannot deny his friendship. About one hundred years ago in Bengal, in the aristocratic circle, the guests invited and very sumptuously food distributed, and then the gentlemen, guests, they come and see only, they will simply say: "Oh, it is very nicely done." They'll not eat, and go away. Then the foodstuff will be distributed among the servants. This was aristocracy. They'll not eat, they will simply see and appreciate, "Oh, you have so many varieties, very nice." Then they'll go. And the household servants and others, they eat it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why didn't they eat it? Prabhupāda: That was the custom. *Bali*-mardana: That is a dry philosophy. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You have seen this article? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: Other news, after Mars? No? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I haven't seen the newspapers yet. Might have some more . . . been taking pictures, photographs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda explained that the picture they took of Mars, they now say that there's . . . they pointed out that there's a similar canyon, the Grand Canyon, in Arizona. So they were reporting like this, and Prabhupāda said this is an indication that actually it is a picture of . . . they have unintentionally they have let out the information that actually the photo is simply a photograph of the Grand Canyon. Hari-śauri: He gave an example. There's a man in his room at night, and he hears a noise. So he says: "Oh, what's that sound?" And then back comes the reply, "I am not stealing." So no one asked the man to say what he was doing, but he unintentionally let it out what he was actually doing there. He just asked what the noise was, but he said: "I am not stealing." So in the same way, no one asked them to say anything about Arizona, but they let it out. Prabhupāda: They have disclosed unintentionally. That is going on. It is beyond their dream to go either to the moon planet or Mars planet. It is not possible. Not nowadays I say—I said it ten years ago. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're going to have a difficult time, with the scientists, about this moon. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're going to have a difficult time about this moon and the sun relationship. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sunday, Monday. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is a lifelong project. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Nobody could answer, a simple question. (Hari-śauri explains "Sunday, Monday" question in background) According to Vedic astronomical calculations, sun is first. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But does it have to do anything with distance, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Does it have to do anything with the distance? As the sun is recorded first? *Prabhupāda: No, according to them if sun is first, then it will be ninety*-three millions miles. And if the moon is still away, one million six hundred thousand miles, it becomes ninety-five million miles. How they are going ninety-five millions of miles in four days? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, on that ground it is reasonable to know that they couldn't go there, but . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I say they couldn't go there. Their asset is Arizona, that's all. All this propaganda has gone, and at last they wanted to satisfy by delivering some sand and rock, that's all. Actually the business was not done. Hari-śauri: They say even if there's life on another planet, at most it could be bacteria. Prabhupāda: Nonsense. If bacteria is there, why not others? Hari-śauri: Well the thing is that if they say that there's other life, then they'd have to show it. But they don't know what's there 'cause they've never been. So they have to show either there's no life and here's some rocks, which they got from this planet, or at most there's only bacteria, which they can also produce here and say it's there. But they can't show any advanced life because they don't know. Prabhupāda: They have never gone. Simply bluff. That is my point. *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: Whenever they don't know something, they say it doesn't exist. Prabhupāda: I have got evidence, our Vedic literature. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have other informations other than Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ? Prabhupāda: Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have other evidences? Prabhupāda: We have evidence from astronomy, Jyoti-śāstra. Jyoti-śāstra . *Rādhā*-vallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Manasvī is here. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Manasvī. Shall I tell him to come in? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sit down. Wherefrom you are coming? Manasvī: New Jersey, Hoboken. Prabhupāda: Where is your child? Manasvī: She's downstairs. Prabhupāda: With whom he is there? Manasvī: With her brother. Prabhupāda: So? What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the magazine I was telling you about, Transcendental Meditation Today . Prabhupāda: That is the name of the magazine? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The feature article is . . . Prabhupāda: This is our? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Big article all about our Society. Prabhupāda: Oh, my picture also. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Prabhupāda, ācārya *-founder." Tells all about you and your books. Hari-śauri: It especially mentions your books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a whole page devoted about your books. Hari-śauri: This is the dome downstairs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Hare Kṛṣṇa Meditation. Who is Kṛṣṇa?" (laughs) "The Kṛṣṇa Cut." It tells about the haircut, śikhā . (laughter) Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa cut." (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then in the back there's more articles about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There's the . . . here, "Food for the gods, prasādam ." Hari-śauri: Describes what standard we have for making the prasādam , how you can't taste it, you have to be very clean. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's that . . . remember I was telling you about that meditation on the ping*-pong balls? Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughter) Devotee: "Ganzfeld effect." They give it a name and make it sound very important, and then sell it for a thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: Who's name? Devotee (1): Ganzfeld. They say the Ganzfeld effect. Prabhupāda: Who is Ganzfeld? Somebody know? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's an article about Maharishi. (aside) You want to read it? There's some points in here, it says: "Profit without honor." This man hates Maharishi, says he's completely bogus. Prabhupāda: His picture is hateful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "Profit without any honor." He quotes you in here. Prabhupāda: What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "Swami Prabhupāda, spiritual leader of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and Bill Faill, Durban, South Africa, of the Natal Mercury Reporter , had the following dialogue—Bill Faill: Do you think that Transcendental Meditation is helping people? *Prabhupāda: They do not know what real meditation is. Their meditation is simply a farce, another cheating process by the so*-called svāmīs and yogīs . So everyone is talking about meditation, but no one knows what meditation really is. These bluffers use the word meditation, but they do not know the proper subject for meditation. They are simply talking bogus propaganda. Bill Faill: But isn't meditation helpful in getting people to think straight? Prabhupāda: No. Real meditation means to achieve a state in which the mind is saturated by God consciousness." *Prabhupāda: Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ ( SB 12.13.1). This is the Vedic version. When one man's mind is fully absorbed in the Supersoul, Viṣṇu, that is called meditation. And Bhagavad-gītā confirms: These are the Vedic version. These rascals—some light, some this, some that. *Rādhā*-vallabha: There are some quotes here from people describing Maharishi's meditation. It says: "A Denver housewife said: 'I turned off when I found that TM' " that's what they call Transcendental Meditation, " 'I turned off when I found that TM is trying to sell me meditation the same way Proctor and Gamble sells me soap.' " Prabhupāda: Gamble? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Big soap company. Hari-śauri: Proctor and Gamble manufacture all kinds of soaps and detergents, so she's saying that the way they sell Transcendental Meditation is the same as the way they sell soap. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very commercialized. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They have here proof that his mantra is no different than any ordinary sound. It says: "In a Stanford Research Institute experiment, a group of TM trainees was compared to a control group who had been taught a fake mantra that they believed would be effective. In both groups some subjects were able to bring unpleasant psychosomatic symptoms under control. Three of these dropped out of the TM training group. Their symptoms returned. Two dropped out of the control group, their symptoms came back too. Evidence like that suggests that whatever works in the TM system, it does not depend upon the mystical mantra ." Prabhupāda: Let their men come and talk with our men in a public meeting. Then people will understand what is the difference. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have a catalog, Transcendental Meditation University. It's very well done, nice colors and anything, first class. They spend a lot of money and a lot of thoughts how to bring . . . how to attract the students. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says their University's just closed down. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, the one at Iowa? Hari-śauri: No, the one in Majorca, in Spain. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is the headquarters, Iowa, the main University. We saw the catalog. It contains everything, all sciences. Hari-śauri: This article explains that when he first appeared in public, he presented himself as a Hindu representative of Śaṅkarācārya's cult, but then later on he concocted this Transcendental Meditation, and then he presented it as a science so that he could get government grants to teach it in schools and things like this. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They have another guru here, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. Prabhupāda: He has also come? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His group is big here. He's very popular in America. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Eighteen thousand disciples. He says: "It does not matter to whom one surrenders. The relevance is in the act of surrendering. But because the human mind sees things in terms of relationships, surrender to a guru is often useful. The guru is a step toward the impersonal divine, a step toward surrender to the existence." Hari-śauri: He makes a comment about sannyāsa as well, I think. *Rādhā*-vallabha: He initiates sannyāsa , they call themselves neo- sannyāsa . "At initiation a sannyāsī receives a new name, an ochre robe and a mālā , a string of beads holding a locket that frames a photograph of Bhagwan." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhagwan Rajneesh, not Bhagavān. *Rādhā*-vallabha: The one who says it's not necessary to have a spiritual master. He says: "The picture is not mine. Had it been mine I would have hesitated to put it there. The picture only appears as mine." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's word jugglery. (laughter) The picture is of himself, he says: "It is not me. If it was me I would not have put it there. It only appears to be me." Devotee (1): They want something very cheap and easy to attain. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Here's his method. First they engage in breathing. It says: "The really successful meditator sounds like an exhausted sea lion." He says: "If you feel like dancing, dance, laugh, scream, sing, express your love, your hate, your anger, your jealousy. Do not condemn what happens; do not condone it. Just go mad. Express whatever is within you totally, intensely." And here's his mantra , " Hoo hoo hoo. " That's his mantra . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were doing this in Bhopal. In Bhopal, we were there when we had our Jeeps. So in the same place we were staying they let this group Rajneesh do it. So they were going with that mantra , " Hoo hoo ." So we were standing out from the balcony shouting, "Kṛṣṇa, that's who." Every morning they would do that meditation, and we would answer "Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) Hari-śauri: They call his method "chaotic meditation." Prabhupāda: They say? Hari-śauri: That's the heading, it says "Chaotic Meditation." *Rādhā*-vallabha: That's the name of it. After they go " Hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo . . ." Prabhupāda: What about . . . what they have written about us? *Rādhā*-vallabha: About us? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A big article. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Everything is favorable. They didn't say one bad thing about us. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. The group above are performing a kīrtana , the chanting of the names of Kṛṣṇa, the Vedic Deity they believe to be the supreme personification of Godhead. They are shown before the doorway of 1 Astor Plaza in Manhattan's Times Square area. Their chant, increasingly familiar on street corners in all large cities across the country, runs, 'Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.' These Kṛṣṇa devotees belong to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, less formally known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement and still less formally to the man in the street as the Harry Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Actually, Prabhupāda, one . . . Prabhupāda: Harry Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They think that we're worshiping a person, some material man, by the name of Harry Kṛṣṇa. They think that your name is Harry Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) *Ādi*-keśava: In Boston they once wrote an article in the newspaper, the Boston Globe , they said: "I walked into the temple room and there he was, a big picture of Harry Kṛṣṇa sitting on a big throne." (laughter) On the vyāsāsana . Hari-śauri: Harry is an English . . . Prabhupāda: Harry, Harrison, like that. Devotee (1): They are saying Kṛṣṇa's name. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I read more? "There are several hundred thousand members of the movement . . . several hundred thousand members of the movement throughout the world. Ten thousand in New York City alone." Actually, there are at least ten thousand followers. "Of these, about a hundred and fifty are full*-time students and live at 340 West Fifty-fifth Street, an eleven-story former Josephine Baird Home of the Roman Catholic Carmelite Nuns." This was a nunnery, Carmelite nuns. "The Hare Kṛṣṇa center on West Fifty-fifth Street draws about five hundred lay devotees and curiosity-seekers from the metropolitan area every Sunday. Open house begins at five p.m. A great drawing card is the serving of prasādam , food specially prepared for and offered to Lord Kṛṣṇa before being distributed to the public. The eating of prasādam (see the article 'Food of the Gods' on a later page), is believed by members of the movement to convey important spiritual benefits—for example, the cleansing of karma due to past sins. Movement members are not unaware of the more immediate and mundane effect. Prasādam is our secret weapon,' said Alaṅkāra dāsa, spokesman for the center. 'It gets them in here, and then they can get the message.' Les Tursley, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, India-based senior member of the movement, has said of prasādam in his country . . ." *Rādhā*-vallabha: They think you're an Indian. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They think I'm an Indian. " 'If anyone comes around to our prasādam distribution program, that means he is hungry. If he is hungry, that means he cannot listen to our philosophy. If his hunger is not satisfied, he'll never become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the point. If we just went around with a program of speaking and kīrtana , they would come once or twice but they wouldn't see its practical value. But if you give them prasādam daily with kīrtana and speaking, eventually you can convince them, "Look, this is our most practical way of life. Why don't you come and live with us completely and work with us?" That's a quote from an article in Back to Godhead . "Though food is far more plentiful in the United States than in India, prasādam appeal seems to work its magic here just as well. The entire movement began only ten years ago in a storefront temple in Manhattan's Lower East Side. Today it owns the largest publishing house of Hindu classics, many in demand for leading university courses. The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust in Los Angeles, the world's largest, last year's gross of one million dollars; *incense*-producing Spiritual Sky Scented Products Company; *and Kṛṣṇa Fashions Incorporated, a wholesale clothing manufacturer. An important portion of the movement's income comes from the contributions of lay devotees, who are successful businessmen. More comes from street*-corner solicitation of alms by devotees during kīrtana . How significant the last is was shown recently by the closing down of elevator service in the New York center. 'A lot of us are going on pilgrimage to India,' said Alaṅkāra dāsa. 'There won't be many around to beg. These elevators cost us $2,200 a month to run. So we're cutting down except for essential services.' " We don't do that anymore. That was the previous mismanagement. Someone had the idea that if you turn off the elevator, that's very good. But I told him if you're not going to run the elevator, then why did you move here? They had people walking up eleven stories, and it was crazy, just to save . . . anyway, "These include moving foodstuffs and milk into the building. Much of the food comes from a 350-acre ISKCON-owned dairy farm in Academia, Pennsylvania, one of the six similar facilities in this country and Canada." They show pictures of devotees in the temple, devotees taking prasādam and two lady devotees. "The yoga ," it says under the captions, "monks take breakfast by hand in rows on the dining area floor." Here it says, "Saried women devotees dwell in cloister atmosphere of the center." Then "The yoga of devotion: Tilaka of clay paste marks the devotee as a member of ISKCON sect. Central shrine in the temple is the focal point of twice a day services." A picture of Rādhā-Govinda. " 'Our life is our meditation' said a śikhā -ed, saffron-clad monk in the Hare Kṛṣṇa center. 'Everything we do is offered to Śrī Kṛṣṇa, but in addition to that there is the personal chanting, most . . .' " (break) ". . . slung from the devotee's neck. He often counts the beads without taking his hand from the pouch. In the early hours the Hare Kṛṣṇa center buzzes with a droning sound, difficult to identify by the stranger who does not know that it comes from the monks, who are beginning their required sixteen rounds." They have given everything very detailed. "The personal chanting sometimes occurs in unusual situations—while escorting a visitor to the center, while waiting to complete a phone call, or even during pauses in a conversation." (laughter) Devotees are always chanting. " 'The mahāmantra is the only mantra needed' the devotee says. Besides the sixteen rounds, devotees are expected to observe four rules. They must abstain from meat-eating, intoxication, gambling and illicit sex. Illicit sex is defined as any sexual act other than that intended for procreation. Sex outside of marriage is forbidden. Married, full-time devotees may have sexual relationship once a month at a time propitious for procreation. All the devotee's activities are regarded as bhakti-yoga , the yoga of devotion. He regards everything he does as service to God. The name he is given at initiation is followed by the word dāsa , 'a servant.' Full-time ISKCON devotees adopt Vedic dress, one objective being to keep others aware of Kṛṣṇa. Women wear sārīs , the men dhotīs; *both may wear shawls. The men shave their heads except for a single lock of hair at the back. (See the article 'The Kṛṣṇa Cut.') The lock, called a śikhā , identifies the followers of Kṛṣṇa." Actually, no one can imitate us because no one wants to give up their hair, so no one will try to make believe they are devotees. "Shaving the head announces renunciation of material pleasures. The tilaka is a mark made with clay—two narrow vertical stripes on the forehead meeting in a triangular swatch on the bridge of the nose. It identifies the body as a temple to be used only in the service of God. Full*-time students follow a rigorously monastic life. They arise at four a.m. in the morning, begin four hours of prayer and chanting. At nine o'clock they have breakfast, seated cross-legged on mats on the floor. The men eat apart from the women. During the day devotees work at various preaching programs or at regular jobs. At seven p.m. devotional services are held in the center's temple. In Manhattan this features an ornate shrine including representations of Kṛṣṇa and His consort, Rādhe. Both are costumed sumptuously with elaborate care; *both wear festoons of flowers. Visitors are cautioned, 'When you go in the temple remember that these statues you see are not representations of the Deities, they are the Deities. Kṛṣṇa is in everything. Kṛṣṇa is everywhere.' Temple kīrtana ." There's a picture. "Eleven*-story New York sect's center is former Carmelite Baird home." Picture of the temple. "Services in the temple are attended by about five hundred every Sunday. Many of these are from New York's Hindu population. Frequently husbands bring their pregnant wives, dedicating their unborn child to Kṛṣṇa. The kīrtana begins with the chanting of the mahā-mantra , slowly at first and melodiously. Later the chant will speed up as the spirit of the devotion spreads. Often the most rapid and intense chanting is done by a hard-core knot of dhotī -ed men before the curtains of the shrine." The devotees get in one group and start . . . (laughter) Hard-core devotees. "The rhythm approaches that of an express train, and the atmosphere is apt to remind a lay visitor of an old-fashioned football rally. Some of the onlookers try to keep up with the central group, clapping their hands, swaying their bodies, throwing arms upwards and, among the younger, adapting modern dance steps to the rhythm. When the shrine curtains are drawn back, devotees kneel and press their foreheads . . ." Prabhupāda: Who has introduced this peculiar dancing? Hari-śauri: It just evolved. (laughs) Rūpānuga: We were speaking about that the other day. It's changed from the original dancing that you showed us to something else. Too much like the modern dancing. Prabhupāda: Hmm. I think this is not good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shall I read on, Prabhupāda? "The service has become . . ." What way should we dance, Śrīla Prabhupāda? With our hands outstretched? Sometimes the devotees like to jump around. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: In ecstasy one can do anything, that is another . . . but artificially to do something is not good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But if one feels like jumping, it is all right? Prabhupāda: Anything artificial is not required. Rūpānuga: So running back and forth is not . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, that should not be an artificial. Hari-śauri: We don't dance for show; we dance for the pleasure of the Deities. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're not professional dancers. "The service has become so frenetic that the almost folksy, matter of fact preaching of the Swami makes a stark contrast. 'Some people are against us because they say we teach children to smile. Well isn't that too bad. We make children smile—we are bad. We try to teach them that life should be a joyful thing—we're evil. Well that's too bad, isn't it? ' " Devotees: Who's that? That's crazy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is theory. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So he has not returned with the key? Hari-śauri: Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Still more? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "After the sermon, more chanting. Now it really becomes frantic, and even compelling. Many curious first*-time visitors begin to take up the mahā-mantra chant. The hard-core group at the shrine seems to be completely carried away. The terrazo floor literally vibrates. Gradually the crowd begins to thin. Other things are happening in the center. On the third floor there is a traditional Vedic play in costume, acted with enthusiasm." (sound of kīrtana ) Hari-śauri: It's going downstairs somewhere, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Ādi*-keśava: They're getting everybody together to go out on saṅkīrtana party. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "On the second floor there is a store which attracts many visitors who want to buy Indian costumes, jewelry and the movement's books. Prasādam is served in the basement restaurant. Visitors eat at tables in the same area where monks had breakfast on the floor. The prasādam features Hindu dishes served in the compartments of plasticized paper mess trays." Then it goes on. Now there's another article about you. (aside) Why are they holding a kīrtana now? *Ādi*-keśava: They're getting a kīrtana party together to go out on hari-nāma down at Times Square. (indistinct conversation among devotees) Prabhupāda: Hmm. What does he say? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Prabhupāda, ācārya -founder, born Abhay Charan De in India in 1895, the founder . . . future founder- ācārya , spiritual leader of ISKCON, came under the spiritual direction of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja, ascetic scholar and preacher who had devoted his life to the spread of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Three years later, shortly before he died, Bhaktisiddhānta ordered Abhay to spread the Kṛṣṇa faith in the English language. One of the ways that Abhay, now known as Prabhupāda—'one at whose feet masters sit'—did that was to begin to translate the classic Vedic literature, but it was not until thirty years after he was charged by his spiritual mentor that he was able to make a trip to the United States. He arrived in Boston in September 1965, a spry but grim-faced passenger of seventy years on the steamer Jaladuta . He had forty rupees in his pocket and a metal suitcase full of his books and translations. Finding his way to New York City, he set up a storefront temple at 26 Second Avenue in the East Village section. Gradually he drew a small coterie of students around him, mostly through his preaching in Tompkinson Park. As his movement grew, he found backers among his converts. Hare Kṛṣṇa centers were established in Boston, Buffalo and San Francisco, and an appreciation of Prabhupāda's Vedic translations by American university authorities, Columbia, Princeton, Yale professors among others, permitted the establishment of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust in Los Angeles. The Trust launched a promotion of Prabhupāda's translations and original works under the logo of the Living Library of Transcendental Knowledge. Remarkably, in the face of a worldwide economic recession, the Trust's book and magazine sales reached nine million in 1975, up 34.5 percent over 1974. Some of this was due to the determined promotion of groups such as the hundred-man Rādhā-Dāmodara group, which criss-crosses the country in six Greyhound-type buses and ten vans giving lectures and kīrtanas at college university campuses. Now eighty*-one years old, Prabhupāda still works at his writings and the spiritual direction of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. His translation of Bhagavad-gītā , the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is , the most widely used in the Western world, is in great demand by professors of Indology and Vedic literature." Prabhupāda: He has given advertisement for our books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Very favorable. *Rādhā*-vallabha: The amazing thing is that he's an impersonalist. Prabhupāda: Impersonalist? *Rādhā*-vallabha: The man who wrote all of these articles, he's an impersonalist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's a picture of him. Prabhupāda: Oh, he's American? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Tripurāri: He thinks there are different types of meditation that all work, and ours is one type, bona fide, that works. There are also other types. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The article goes on—I don't know if you want to hear it all. You want to hear it? Okay. Here's this thing called "Who is Kṛṣṇa?" "Kṛṣṇa, viewed by ISKCON as the supreme personification of Godhead, is said to have many pastimes in which He assumes different appearances. One such is that of Gopālajī, the cowherd boy (see picture, 'Cowherd Boy') He can appear in other forms such as four*-armed Nārāyaṇa. Most often Kṛṣṇa is portrayed as having light blue skin and, by Western standards, a soft and effeminate physique. He is said to be full in the six opulences: beauty, strength, fame, wealth, knowledge and renunciation. He is said to be all-attractive. Kṛṣṇa incarnates on one planet after another in infinite universes. The last time He appeared on earth as Kṛṣṇa was five thousand years ago. He will not return in that form for another four hundred thousand years. But five hundred years ago He appeared in His incarnation of Lord Caitanya, who taught people of the mahā-mantra and started the Kṛṣṇa consciousness in its present state. According to the Bhagavad-gītā , Kṛṣṇa hungers for the devotion of His followers." Very nicely put. "This devotion in its pure sense takes the form of bhakti-yoga , the dedication of one's every action to Kṛṣṇa. Thus to use one's sense for one's own pleasure is to deny Kṛṣṇa devotion and accumulate negative karma . Kṛṣṇa has a consort, Rādhe, but She is considered only as an extension of His own pleasure principle, since He is all things. It is through Her intercession that devotees seek favors from Kṛṣṇa. According to ISKCON, Kṛṣṇa is the same God worshiped as Jehovah, Allah and so on." That is the explanation of who Kṛṣṇa is. *Rādhā*-vallabha: He could write for Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He could write for Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: Yes, it is good. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. Then there is a part called "Hare Kṛṣṇa Meditation." "The Hare Kṛṣṇas practice bhakti , the yoga of devotion. They have their mahā*-mantra , continual recitation of which will have a meditative effect. By integrating recitation of the mantra with a life of rigidly formulated devotional activities, it would seem that devotees actually live their meditation. Such a life of living meditation is not without parallel in secular fields. It is believed that the spiritual form of alchemy served this purpose; that is, an alchemist repeated the same experimental routine over and over until it became automatized, though still requiring some slight personal involvement." He's getting a little far out here. "It was expected that the result . . ." This is material. Anyway, ". . . practitioners of Western magical disciplines sought for similar results. Meditation takes effect in terms of the ambiance in which it is practiced. In the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement there are certain to be transcendental experiences. They would be in accord with Vedic teachings, but their exact nature has not proven easy of discovery, since devotees insist that their sole aim in life is to be of service to Kṛṣṇa." We're not interested in experiencing all of these special things. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice point. Then there's a part about the Kṛṣṇa cut. Says here, "Badge. The badge of the monks is a single lock that hangs from a rear of shaven head. As a precisely trimmed śikhā is a matter of pride, monks often cooperate in shaving one another. Hair is buzzed off by clipper (left side), leaving a bristly surface (center)"—shows the bristly surface. Prabhupāda: He has taken photograph of it? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughter) Yes. ". . . which is lathered up and shaved with a safety razor (right side). Even more striking than their saffron dhotīs and shawls is the ISKCON men's practice of shaving their heads with the exception of one long lock in the rear, known as the śikhā . The first reaction of the layman is "Why do they do it?" The next is "How do they do it?" The Hare Kṛṣṇas themselves advance three different answers to the first question. Some say that in countries that have hot climates, the religious have always shaved their heads to ensure cleanliness. A clean body reflects a pure spirit." Prabhupāda: One letter should be written to him that, "You have taken so much trouble to describe Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, so thank you for your patience. Now we shall request you to read our books and review it. That will be real presentation of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Now you have studied superficially, and if you seriously study our books, you'll get more knowledge and you'll be able to give description of the movement more definitely." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to hear about what else he has to say? *Prabhupāda: Um*-hmm. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Others insist that the style of shaving the head identifies devotees of various spiritual orders. The long śikhās marks a man as a follower of Kṛṣṇa. Still another group says that the head*-shaving simply stands for renunciation of the material world, its values and its pleasures. One or more of those reasons may be the true one. Possibly all of them have a multi-determined . . . have multi-determined the Kṛṣṇa cut. The 'how' of the cut is simplicity itself. Commonly two men cut each others' hair. Our pictures show how. Phase one of the cutting, known as the buzz-off, is done with ordinary . . ." (laughter) Prabhupāda: Buzz off? (laughter) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. ". . . is done with ordinary hair clipper. The post buzz*-off effect . . ." (laughter) Rūpānuga: This guy's made a science out of it. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ". . . shown in the second picture. Next, the prickly sconce." Prabhupāda: What is that meaning? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prickly sconce. Prickly means short*-haired, and sconce means . . .? Hari-śauri: Look it up in the dictionary. (laughter) *Rādhā*-vallabha: People like to think they are scientific like this. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "The prickly sconce is lathered up with an old*-fashioned mug and brush and shaved with a safety razor. It is considered of paramount importance that the base of the śikhā be shaved round evenly. The shavee sometimes shows some nervousness about this." He gets nervous that they'll cut his śikhā off. This man has caught every detail. Prabhupāda: Good writer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's a good one. Hari-śauri: It says "Sconce: crown of head." It's an old term for the crown of the head. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a special article about prasādam , Prabhupāda, called "Food for the Gods." "Of all the ways of getting to heaven, or nirvāṇa , or whatever your ideal place may be, the Hare Kṛṣṇa way is one of the most pleasant. Believers of this faith are convinced that you can eat your way into higher spiritual realms. Of course, this doesn't mean that food itself is sacred and the more you eat the holier you are. To begin with, there is a strict prohibition against the killing of animals, so meat, fish and eggs are not included in the diet at all of the Kṛṣṇa devotees. Furthermore, there are many special rules for preparing the food which may be offered to Kṛṣṇa to be blessed by Him and therefore to bring blessings to anyone who partakes of it." Should I read this whole article? *Prabhupāda: Um*-hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "The recipes given below, taken from the Hare Kṛṣṇa Cookbook"—another good advertisement, and they give you at least three or four recipes in here. They give recipes for, the recipes are for . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, he has given more pages for our movement. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, he's given us three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve pages. And the whole magazine, including many advertisements . . . actually the nonadvertised part is about fifty*-five pages, of which we have twelve. At least one fifth of the book is for Hare Kṛṣṇa. The other groups only have three pages, four pages. And he blasts them mostly. Some of them are really nonsense. Here's one called the Deichmann Experiment. You stare at a vase . . . Prabhupāda: Another meditation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, this is another one, Deichmann Experiment. Then they have one about Zen Buddhism, it shows Zen meditation. Here's a Zen master sitting in front of a basketball. I don't know why. *Ādi*-keśava: They have a meditation they call Zen basketball. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Ādi*-keśava: We went to one seminar once when they were teaching Zen basketball. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's another one, "Hypnotism or Meditation?" "A hypnotist discusses a question that many face." Because they accuse that we're hypnotizing, so they're trying to distinguish in this article what is hypnotism, what is meditation. Then here's another one, "The Art of Awareness." This woman is supposed to be a great transcendental artist. You can see some of her famous pictures. Here's a picture called "Congregations of Souls." And here's another picture called "Temple Stones." Then this is the Ganzfeld Effect. (laughter) Ping*-pong balls. Says here, "The apparently pop-eyed lady is not a visitor from another dimension nor the victim of a sudden surprise. She is the subject of an experiment into the nature of meditation and some of the effects of the processes. The ping-pong ball halves present a completely continuous visual field. There's no object in it that can hold her attention. After staring at the insides of the ping-pong balls for a while, she will begin to feel peaceful and . . ." Prabhupāda: Actually she does? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, that's the meditation. They put the ping*-pong ball, and then it describes, "She will feel peaceful and serene. At the same time she may not be able to tell whether her eyes are open or closed. She will see neither white nor black nor any shade in between. She will have the experience of not seeing. At that point, which the subject in this kind . . ." Prabhupāda: With the eyes closed, then not seeing is there already. (laughter) What is the use of meditating? *Hari-śauri: You aren't going to see very much with two ping*-pong balls over your eyes, are you? (laughter) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "The white hemispheres covering her eyes are halves of ping*-pong balls. The wires lead off to an electroencephalograph, E.E.G. It keeps a record of changes in her brainwave output. At that point when she is not seeing, which subjects in this kind of experiment call 'blanking out,' the electroencephalograph will record a brainwave output well into the alpha range." They also tell you how to make the Ganzfeld, how to cut the . . . it shows a ping-pong ball and a knife. (laughter) This guy is weird. Hari-śauri: This thing about alpha range, this is becoming a big thing. They think that if a person gets into this alpha range of brain stimulation, then his meditation is successful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're trying to figure it all out scientifically. *Ādi*-keśava: They're trying to use all kinds of machines and wires to measure consciousness. They have one group that has tin cans attached to wires, and they hold them in their hand, and then they measure it on the machine as they meditate. And when they meditate right, the needle on the machine goes right in the middle, and they think they have achieved perfection. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here is an article called "Travels Beyond the Body: What is it that travels, and what is it that's seen?" They're talking about traveling beyond your body. Here's an advertisement, "Because I have taken the mystery out of transcendental meditation, I will teach you to master transcendental meditation in a single evening." "About the author." Then it says: "Free private mantra based on your own name, selected by the great Norbell, translated by his special Sanskrit system, so that no one else in America has the same mantra twice. No other system of transcendental meditation . . ." Prabhupāda: What is this? Maharishi? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Maharishi Yogi? Hari-śauri: No, this is competition. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, this isn't . . . Hari-śauri: This is the competition. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This man says: "Norbell, for over thirty years his unrelenting thirst for spiritual fulfillment has taken him to the most remote corners of the globe to finally become one of the few Westerners in our time who has ever gained acceptance as an equal among the holy masters of both India and Tibet. He has also mastered the scientific secrets of Western knowledge in America's most highly regarded universities. In America alone over the past decades, tens of thousands have come to Carnegie Hall in New York and dozens of other centers of public hearing all to hear him." He says: "Meditation can make this claim alone, and it's yours to keep. Your own mantra free, even if you return the report itself. Mail this coupon at no risk today. 'Gentlemen, please rush me a copy of Norbell's five minute de*-mystified transcendental meditation.' " (laughter) De-mystified, taking the mystery out. "Confidential report. 'I enclose nine dollars and ninety-eight cents in full payment. I understand that I may examine this confidential report for thirty days at your risk or money back. Also send me my own private mantra , specially selected for me by Master Norbell and mine absolutely free, even if I return the report, with every cent of my money back.' " It says here—these are the benefits of the mantra —one of the benefits is, it says here, one of the benefits, "and as an extra benefit of such heightened personal magnetism, a simple shift in the focus of your daily meditations can give you great new sexual and romantic powers, new joys in love." Devotee (1): They're all cheaters. It's just another con. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's another group called Arika. This Arika costs three thousand dollars, this process. They charge three thousand dollars for a ninety*-day course. *Ādi*-keśava: Part of their whole meditation is they have cocktail parties. They drink liquor and they meet and they have these therapy, and they charge him money to go to a cocktail party and call it yoga . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, it's got a good article about us. You want to keep it to show guests who come, the article? Prabhupāda: No. (laughter) Hari-śauri: Anyone who reads that magazine will immediately become attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there's no comparison. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's got the best article I've ever seen, though, about us, in great detail. It really reports the details. Prabhupāda: Hmm. This is also good article. (break) Hmm! Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa, where is the key? Key? Distribute this prasādam . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can see how he's cooking very . . . he's the most expert I've ever seen, and he knows these special preparations. He can cook many varieties of kachorī . (end) Conversation -- July 11, 1976, New York (Evening Darsana) Prabhupāda: "I take away as death." Whatever they are accumulating, everything will be taken away at the time of death . . . (indistinct) . . . they are simply collecting, accumulating, discovering—forgetting that everything will be taken away at the time of death. Discover something which can check death, there will be no more death. That is real discovery. What do you think? Indian man (1): Well, it's a question to think about. Prabhupāda: Because whatever we are discovering, it will be taken away by death. So discover something which will stop death. And that is real discovery. Indian man (1): But don't you think it will be a bad thing, because there are some bad people in the world like, let's say, Hitler and Stalin and others, they may be the first people to use the technology to prolong their life? Prabhupāda: The thing is, bad or good, everyone will be taken away by death. Is it not a fact? Hitler is no longer existing, neither Stalin nor Gandhi. Gandhi was supposed to be very good man. He's also taken by death, and Hitler is also taken by death. And Stalin also taken. And I'll also, you will be also. So death will take away everyone. There is no doubt about it. Therefore discover something which will stop death. That is real discovery. *Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Which is the most important chapter of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: Every word is important. Guest (1): Every word. Devotee: Jaya . *Prabhupāda: Every word. Beginning from dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ ( BG 1.1), every word. Guest (1): Every one. *Bali*-mardana: Every word. Guest (1): Every word. *Prabhupāda: And that will give you guidance. Read Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, word for word. But don't misinterpret and spoil. The rascals misinterpret and spoil the whole Bhagavad-gītā . That is the difficulty. You cannot misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā . Then it will be spoiled. If you take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, you are benefited. And if you misinterpret, then you spoil. So generally they misinterpret. Everyone speaks on Bhagavad-gītā , but he misinterprets. Guest (1): You've made it very clear, Prabhupāda. I want to thank you for that. I like your purports as much as Kṛṣṇa's actual words, because now I can understand it. *Prabhupāda: Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . Otherwise, for the last so many years—I am speaking in Western countries—so many svāmīs , so many yogīs come, they speak on Bhagavad-gītā but misinterpret. So not a single devotee was there. And now Bhagavad-gītā is presented as it is, and so many devotees are coming. Guest (1): Now we can understand it. *Prabhupāda: You could understand long ago, but difficulty is we accept this misinterpretation, spoiled understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . Just like this gentleman was speaking he did not like Kṛṣṇa, he told me. He told me just now. *Bali*-mardana: He did not like Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: They'll read Bhagavad*-gītā , and they'll not like Kṛṣṇa. This is their reading of Bhagavad-gītā . Indian man (2): They don't want to read it yet. *Prabhupāda: Aiyee, idhar aiyee. (Come, come here.) Now all Indians, they should take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and make their life fruitful. The Europeans and Americans, they are taking. Why Indians are not taking? *Indian lady: Is it because the Indians think that they know much about Bhagavad*-gītā ? Being born a Hindu, they might think they know the religion, but not very much. They are not Kṛṣṇa conscious at all. Prabhupāda: Just see. He knows everything, he does not know Kṛṣṇa? How he knows everything if he does not know Kṛṣṇa? If you think that you know everything, then you must know Kṛṣṇa. But if you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then what do you know? Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply know Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything. And if you know everything and you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then you are rascal, that's all. Mūḍha . That is the test. If you know everything but do not know Kṛṣṇa, then you are a rascal. And if you know Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything automatically. Indian lady: I think they think they know it, but I'm sure they are not aware of it. Prabhupāda: If they know Kṛṣṇa, why they do not come to the Kṛṣṇa's temple? Indian man (2): Quite a number of them come here. I remember the days when I used to be the only Indian in the temple, seven, eight years ago. Prabhupāda: Even though they are not coming, they should now come, and we can open many other temples if you come. We can maintain many other temples. You come and take advantage of it. Why you are losing your own culture? That is foolishness. You are Indians, and you do not know Kṛṣṇa. That is not a very good credit. Indian man (2): Remember when we were building our altar? Remember last year when I talked to you? We were building altar, and virtually I went to every Indian, and myself and the president of that temple, we begged everything we can do possible. And we wanted to collect almost ten thousand dollars. We couldn't even collect five thousand dollars, and most of them were making between fifteen and twenty thousand dollars. Some of them in fact gave us pennies. Prabhupāda: Just see. *Indian man (2): And they took us one Bhagavad*-gītā . We gave them Bhagavad-gītā and they gave us some pennies. *Bali*-mardana: Not a very good trade. (laughter) Prabhupāda: This is not good report. *Bali*-mardana: Praghoṣa, he gets at least ten dollars in lakṣmī . Indian man (2): It's difficult to collect money from the Indians. That is my experience, and I . . . *Bali*-mardana: Because they are thinking of rupees, not dollars. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That means they do not like Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (2): I don't know. Somehow or other, I myself am totally confused about Indian community in this country. I have no comments to make, but I found out that they are the least charitable community among all communities. I lived in Canada almost ten years, and I found out other communities are very charitable. Even if you go to other community, at least they will give something, but Indians, no. Prabhupāda: Aiye na. Please come. Every Indian should come to the temple and become a devotee. Indian man (1): I think more and more people are really coming to the temple and becoming part of it, as I think most of the devotees around here know, in the last few years. Everybody I know of . . . Prabhupāda: "More and more coming" means not all are coming. (laughter) Indian man (1): All of them would be the most desirable thing. Prabhupāda: What is the objection? Indian man (1): There are so many other temples. Hindu temple, Sindhu temple . . . there's organization of community of Indians, they are trying to develop their own. *Prabhupāda: There is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity? Indian lady: Yes. Indian man (1): There is *Gītā* temple, there's a Sindhi temple. Prabhupāda: Without Kṛṣṇa? *Gītā* without Kṛṣṇa? Indian man (1): It is a temple, everybody facing their back towards Kṛṣṇa and chanting about what was happening in the town. *Bali*-mardana: They have Kṛṣṇa mūrti , but when he went there everyone had their back to the mūrti . Indian man (1): And they were chanting . . . not chanting, talking about what was going on in the town. *Bali*-mardana: Social. For social reasons. Prabhupāda: That means they do not know Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (1): But here you can only talk about Kṛṣṇa, so they don't want to come. Indian man (2): If you want to talk to them about Kṛṣṇa you'll lose a friend. Right away. So either make friends with Kṛṣṇa, or make friends with that guy. Prabhupāda: That is not very good. That means they have fallen from their culture. They have lost their culture. Indian man (1): Some of them in fact enjoy eating hot dogs and hamburgers. They said: "Oh, I have been eating vegetables for ages. Now I have come here to eat hot dogs and hamburgers." That is their comment. They have done totally . . . Prabhupāda: What is this hot dog? Hari-śauri: It's meat, sausage. Guest: Together with other poisons. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Made from cows. (break) Prabhupāda: (referring to guests leaving) Some prasādam? Oh, they have taken prasādam . Indian man (2): Want something to eat? Hari-śauri: Feast prasādam . *Bali*-mardana: Someone is making them some little prasāda ? Hari-śauri: There is some prasādam to distribute. *Prabhupāda: Khoob khaiye aur aap log ko to chahiye Kṛṣṇa prasadam sikhana, ye bechare to jante hi nahin, Krishna ko chod diya to kaun sikhayega. Kyon aplog Kṛṣṇa ko chod diya. (Have lots of prasadam and you must learn how to prepare Kṛṣṇa prasadam , these people don't know — they have forgotten Kṛṣṇa so who will teach them. Why did you people leave Kṛṣṇa?) And they talk of Bhagavad*-gītā and keeping Kṛṣṇa background? Somebody says? *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Mostly they don't even talk of Bhagavad-gītā , they talk about social, but Kṛṣṇa they keep to your back. They have named the place Gītā Mandira, Gītā Temple. But they do not discuss Gītā . Just for show. *Prabhupāda: That is the disease. Even Mahatma Gandhi, he was talking of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad*-gītā , but throughout his whole life he never established a temple of Kṛṣṇa, although his photograph you'll find with Bhagavad-gītā . This is the calamity. *Indian man (1): In the last days Mahatma Gandhi kept saying rāma rāma, rāma*-nāma is the only way chanting . . . one of his article he says: "There is no other cure but to chant the name of the Lord." *Prabhupāda: Mahatma Gandhi would have preached Bhagavad*-gītā , the world would have taken very seriously, because he was respectable. *Bali*-mardana: You wrote him to preach Bhagavad-gītā . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Jo kuch ho gaya ho gaya ab to aap sab pardesh me hain khoob Bhagavat*-Gita ka prachar kijiye aur samajhiye sab kuch hai. (Whatever has happened is past now. You all are in a foreign land. Do extensive preaching and publicity of Bhagavad-gītā and understand everything is there.) The four things Kṛṣṇa wants, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). He charges four thing: to think of Kṛṣṇa, to become His devotee, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, mad-yājī . . . find out this verse. Here is Bhagavad-gītā . Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru . Hari-śauri: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." *Prabhupāda: Charges four things, He wants: to always think of Him, become His devotee, worship Him, mad*-yājī , and offer obeisances unto Him. Therefore this temple is there. These four things can be done even by the child. So why don't you do it? And the guarantee is that if anyone does like that, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Every one of you should come to the temple, always think of the Deity, and if possible chant His holy name and offer Him some worship and obeisances. That will make you perfect. New York is such a big city, there are so many Indians, they should come. Where is the difficulty, to become a thinker of Kṛṣṇa, always thinking, man-manā ? The Deity is there. As soon as you come, you get some impression of the Deity. So if you think of the Deity, where is the difficulty? Koi difficulty hai. (Is there any difficulty?) Can anyone say that there is difficulty in thinking of Kṛṣṇa? And as soon as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become a devotee—immediately. And as soon as you become a devotee, you'll offer something for worship. And at the end of worship, you offer your obeisances. There is no need of education or Vedānta knowledge. Vedānta knowledge means this: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. Anyone can do. And practically see, these foreigners, ten years, five years ago they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and because they are following this man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ , they are now advanced devotees. So why Indians are lacking? Hmm? What is the objection? Guest (1): Simply our hearts are caked with dust. Prabhupāda: Therefore we shall keep it dusty. If our heart is full of dust, cleanse it. That is intelligence. What is this, "My heart is dirty. Let it be kept as dirty"? No, if it is dirty, cleanse it. It is the duty of every Indian to understand Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to others. That is real Indian business. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that every one of you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to others who are unaware of Kṛṣṇa. That is the injunction; *that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said, bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41): "Anyone who has taken birth in India as a human being"—not as dogs; *manuṣya, manuṣya means human—"his duty is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach to the other people for welfare activities." Bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra . We should mark this point, manuṣya-janma . He's not requesting the cats and dogs. So in other words, that those who are not taking, Indians . . . Bhagavad-gītā is known to everyone; *every Indian knows. But if he does not preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he is not to be counted as human being. Because He says, manuṣya*-janma haila yāra . If we claim to be human being, born in India, it is our duty to understand the value of life from Bhagavad-gītā and preach this cult to others to do real welfare activities. This is the duty of every Indian. Why Indians are lacking in their duty? They do not understand Kṛṣṇa and they do not understand how to do good to others. Now whatever is done is done. It is time, now that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is here, the temple is here, you come, you understand the whole philosophy and distribute. That is your duty. In New York City we can open many temples, provided you come. Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how does it feel to be back in New York again? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest (1): How does it feel to be back in New York? Prabhupāda: Yes, I feel very much pleased, because I came here alone, without any shelter. I was loitering on the street. Guest (1): Ten years ago, wasn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes, 1965. Then in 1966 I established this institution in a storefront on the Second Avenue. That is the beginning. I never thought we shall be able to possess such a big building. Guest (1): You've done so much in that short time. Prabhupāda: I have not done, Kṛṣṇa has done. Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has helped you to do it. *Prabhupāda: That I was speaking, that if we become sincere to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa can give us all opportunities. He's all*-powerful; *He can do that. (aside) Those who are going, give them. Those who are going, you can give one. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. Do you read all these verses, those who are reading Bhagavad*-gītā ? Guest (1): Just in progress. Prabhupāda: This verse is very important. *Every one of you is reading our Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is ? Guests: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is there any question about? *Guest (1): Is there any question about Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: No, as you are reading Bhagavad*-gītā , is there any doubt, question? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to know if anyone has questions. *Prabhupāda: There is nothing doubtful, everything is very plain. But we, by our rascaldom, we make it doubt, by our rascal interpretation. Everyone can understand. Just like dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). The Kurukṣetra is dharma-kṣetra . Still Kurukṣetra is there in India, and it is dharma-kṣetre . People go there for performing religious ritualistic ceremonies. So where is the difficulty to understand? And five thousand years ago the Kurus and Pāṇḍavas, they assembled there for fighting—that is clearly stated, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Who were they? Māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva: "My sons and the sons of Pāṇḍu," Kuru-Pāṇḍava. So where is the difficulty to understand? But by misinterpretation they'll write volumes of books and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. This business should be stopped. Then we will be benefited. Everyone is misinterpreting. Is it not a fact they are misinterpreting? What do you think? Devotee (1): So many intelligent people, they are going to Transcendental Meditation simply because it's costing money. They want to pay. My sister, her husband, they are intelligent people, but they are simply being misled . . . *Prabhupāda: So intelligent that they cannot understand Bhagavad*-gītā . What kind of intelligence is that, the plain thing in the Bhagavad-gītā , they cannot understand? Devotee (1): Very bad intelligence. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). *Prabhupāda: Yes. So*-called intelligent, they are not intelligent. They have lost their sense by the influence of māyā . Even big, big men, they say that Kṛṣṇa, this Kṛṣṇa is not God. "The God Kṛṣṇa is different" and so on, so on. Hmm? Do they not say like that? *Indian man (3): : I wanted to ask you a question. While talking to some of the European people, when we say that Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that asked him to fight, kill his own relatives and friends and not to bother about the consequences of the action. Now this statement sometimes is difficult for people of the West to understand, where they say before you do any action you should know the consequences and then only take action . . . *Prabhupāda: That is the only statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? There is no other statement? Indian man (3): : There is, but . . . Prabhupāda: So you have captured that only. Indian man (3): : Not I . . . Prabhupāda: You're talking of that. Indian man (3): : I'm talking discussion. In a discussion it's difficult to convince people of the West what is the answer to that. *Prabhupāda: But if you know Kṛṣṇa, that He is God, then whatever He speaks, it is all right. Just like Arjuna, he accepted Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). So he said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). Find out this verse. So "Whatever You say, I accept it as truth." That is understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . If you have understood Bhagavad-gītā , then you should have understood that whatever Kṛṣṇa has said, that is truth. Read that. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Translation. Hari-śauri: "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me." *Prabhupāda: That's all. That is understanding. Arjuna is not a fool. He said: "Whatever You have said, I accept them as truth." That is real understanding. And as soon as you make amendment, that you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan vadasi keśava . There are so many rascals, they think, "I don't believe in this, I don't believe in that." That is not understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā . Indian man (3): : Does it mean that before we, or anybody, before he at all . . . *Prabhupāda: Before he, if . . . first of all he must know what is Kṛṣṇa. Then he will understand. That what is Kṛṣṇa, that he will understand from Bhagavad*-gītā by this beginning. And at the end Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Lord. So if you know that Kṛṣṇa is Supreme Lord, then whatever He says is correct. Indian man (3): : That means the first thing is to accept Kṛṣṇa as God, and then . . . Prabhupāda: Not blindly. Indian man (3): : Not blindly. Prabhupāda: Not blindly. But you must know . . . just like if you accept the government, and the government orders, "This man should be hanged," you have to accept it. You cannot protest that, "The government has ordered this man should be hanged. It should be protested." And who will care for your protest? Government is government. You cannot criticize. You may criticize on account of your less intelligence, but government order is all. Is it not? If government orders that, "This man should be hanged," can you say anything against it? It will not be accepted. Similarly, if you know that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, then as Arjuna said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram (BG 10.12). Unless you understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's personality, you will try to weight the strength of His words, the value of His words. But if you understand other statement . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "I am the supreme authority." So if He is the supreme authority, then whatever He has said, it is all right. But if you have doubt about His supreme authority, then you will find out His fault. That is the defect. So if Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the supreme authority . . ." If you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority, then you will understand that whatever He has said, that is absolute. Now if we become doubtful, that is on account of our less intelligence. Why you are questioning this, that Kṛṣṇa . . . what you are question? Indian man (3): : I said that, as an Indian, suppose I try to speak about *Gītā* or philosophy of Hinduism to people in the neighborhood, either in the office or elsewhere, especially with the Europeans, it becomes a point for discussion where it becomes difficult to convince as to why a person should take action without knowing the consequences or even with knowing that the consequences are going to be bad. For instance, Arjuna had to kill his relatives. If he knows that he's going to do it, or if somebody, for instance, in a war, he knows that his friends are on the other side, he may find it hard to shoot at them . . . Prabhupāda: So why Arjuna did later on? Indian man (3): : Because I think he took God's . . . *Prabhupāda: Because he was fool in the beginning, and after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā he became intelligent. Why don't you take in that way? In the beginning, he was rascal. Therefore he needed instruction of Bhagavad-gītā . And when he understood Bhagavad-gītā , what did he say? Hmm? Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā . (aside) Find out this verse. Naṣṭo mohaḥ , "Now my illusion is over." Smṛtir labdhā tvat prasādān madhusūdana . Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: Sthito 'smi gata*-sandehaḥ : "Now all my doubts are over. Now I shall kill." Why did you not say this to your European audience? Indian man (3): : Because I don't know the *Gītā* myself that good. *Prabhupāda: Then why do you preach? Then first of all know, then preach. If you did not know, you should not preach. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). First of all make your life perfect, then try to make others perfect. Don't cheat others. So when Arjuna actually became intelligent, he said, sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . This is understanding. "Yes, now I am situated in my proper understanding, I shall carry out Your order." Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard on one lecture tape, you mentioned your Guru Mahārāja has said that in the morning he had to beat the mind into submission. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): How can we do this? Prabhupāda: Practice this. Your mind, when he says something hodgepodge, just beat him with shoes, just to bring him in order. Here is the real understanding, that: *This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Whether you are prepared to act according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, then your life is successful. Otherwise you are in darkness. So as Arjuna, he was in the darkness . . . he's kṣatriya . The fight was arranged between the two sections of the family, Pāṇḍavas and Kurus, and when he was to fight actually with his family members, he became bewildered that, "Kṛṣṇa, what is this? I'll have to kill my family members." So then he became His disciple that, "I am kṣatriya , it is my duty to fight. Now I am hesitating." Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ (BG 2.7). "I'm just deviating from my duty, so Kṛṣṇa, I accept You as my guru; *kindly give me instruction." So that Bhagavad*-gītā was given instruction . . . (break) He agreed, "Yes, now my illusion is over, I shall fight." This is understanding of Bhagavad-gītā . If you follow Arjuna as he understood, then your understanding of Bhagavad-gītā is perfect. If you do not understand, then you have not understood what is Kṛṣṇa's speaking and what is Bhagavad-gītā . Yes? *Indian man (4): Swāmījī, in Bhagavad*-gītā we can see that Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna that, "I will not fight for you, but I'll only drive your chariot." Why He refused to fight? Why He didn't fight? Prabhupāda: That is, because it was fight amongst the family members. So He was also related with the Kuru family. His aunt, Kuntī . . . Kuntī was married to the Pāṇḍavas. So the family members may not think that He's partial, so He divided Himself into two: His soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. And Arjuna and Duryodhana were present, requesting Him to take their side. So Kṛṣṇa said that, "We are all family members, so I divide Myself into two—My soldiers and Myself. So if you want, you take Me or My soldiers, as you like, but if you take Me, I say I'll not fight." So Duryodhana thought that, "Kṛṣṇa will not fight, and He's prepared to give me soldiers," he took the soldiers, and Arjuna said: "No, I want You." So this was the division. So in the beginning He said that, "Even if I go to one side, I'll not fight." So how He could fight? Not that He was not a fighter, but because He promised that, "The side which will accept, I'll not fight." But He did not say that, "I'll not give you instruction of fighting." That is Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Indian man (3): : He took the chariot wheel when Bhīṣma pitāmaha was coming to Arjuna. Is that a fight? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another instance, that for His devotee He can break His promise also. That is Kṛṣṇa. Arjuna . . . Duryodhana complained to Bhīṣmadeva that, "My dear grandfather, because you have affection for Arjuna and others, you are not fighting properly according to your strength." So at that time Bhīṣma saw that, "This man is doubting about my sincerity." So he wanted to show his power, so he said: "All right." He knew everything—he was a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa—so he promised to Duryodhana that "Tomorrow I shall fight in such a way that either Arjuna will die or Kṛṣṇa will have to break His promise." So he fought in such a way that Arjuna was practically vanquished. At that time, Kṛṣṇa took the wheel of the chariot and came before him that, "Bhīṣma, you stop this fight, otherwise I'll kill you." So Bhīṣma said: "Yes, I am stopping my fight, because You have broken Your promise, that's all." This is the dealing between God and His devotee. There is competition of devotional service. There are so many things. But on the whole, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, the supreme authority. His instruction is final, and anyone who can understand this, his life is successful. Therefore our request is that don't make unnecessary useless interpretation. You take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and act accordingly, your life will be successful. This is our mission. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But if you cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā , we can try to explain before you what it is. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (2): There are many svāmīs coming from India nowadays, and they are trying to establish, some of them like Gaṇapati temples or the Lord Śiva temples and so forth, and trying to confuse Westerners, especially Americans, because most of them, they do come to America. Being Indian, how we can help about this confusion? *Prabhupāda: You take Bhagavad*-gītā as standard. Who is the Hindu or Indian there who can refuse the authority of Bhagavad-gītā ? So you present them Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then it will not happen. I don't think any Indian or any Hindu can deny the authority of Bhagavad-gītā . Is there anyone? Devotee: No. *Prabhupāda: Then you present them. That is, I have taken, that this is the summum bonum of Indian culture, Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā is accepted all over the world as the greatest book of knowledge, so take this standard and preach, and people will be enlightened, without misinterpretation. *Guest: Here's a svāmī, Swami Krishna*-prema Idavatakar from Gorakhpur Vinodiya from Calcutta. Indian lady: Swāmījī, I made this for you. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. Very nice. He has come here? Let him come. Indian lady: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Indian man (5): Swāmī? I have one question which is widely discussed everywhere, that eating of meat is sin. Now we see that while for our survival, while walking, while working we kill so many things, knowingly or unknowingly, is it not sin, that? Prabhupāda: (to Svāmī guest) Aiye, aiye swami. (Come, come Swamiji.) Give him an āsana . Aiye. (Come.) Jaya . Kab aye idhar aap. Idhar hi rehte hain kya? (When did you come here? You are staying here only?) What is that question? Just try to understand. *Devotee (2): Why is meat*-eating sin? *Hari-śauri: He said he can understand meat*-eating is sin, but when we are doing our ordinary work and normal functions, aren't we killing so many other things? So is that sin or not? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also sin. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that whatever you eat, bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). Anyone who is cooking something, meat or vegetables, for his own eating, he is eating only sin. It is not that the vegetarians are not sinful and the meat-eaters are sinful. Everyone is sinful if it is not cooked for Kṛṣṇa. It is not that we are propagating that you become vegetarian. We are propagating that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our propaganda. But because we are trying to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, we offer something to Kṛṣṇa. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So not patraṁ puṣpam , whatever within this group available—fruits, flowers, grains, milk—so we offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña . Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). If you do not perform yajña , then you will be bound up by the resultant action. So this is yajña , to offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña means to satisfy Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-ārādhyate . Yajña means satisfy Kṛṣṇa. But if you don't Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , then you are sinful. Not that if you become vegetarian, then you are not sinful. Not that. Because you have to eat something. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam . Either you eat vegetable or meat, you have to eat something. So somebody prefers eating animals and somebody prefers eating vegetables, but all of them have got life. Therefore you cannot kill any life. So if you eat for yourself, then you are simply eating sin. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt . But if you take Kṛṣṇa prasādam , then if there is any sin, it goes to Kṛṣṇa, you take pure prasādam . And Kṛṣṇa is apāpa-vidham . So our duty is to worship Kṛṣṇa and offer Him so many nice things—fruits, flowers, grains, milk, milk preparation. We are doing that. You are taking prasādam . So that is our business. Is it clear, your answer? Indian man (5): Yes. *Prabhupāda: We are interested in eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam . If Kṛṣṇa says: "Give Me meat," we shall give Him. But He does not say. He says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Meat*-eating is sinful, that's a fact, amedha, tāmasika , but if you remain in the darkness of ignorance, you cannot improve your spiritual life. Tāmasika . It is described in the Bhagavad-gītā , rājasika, tāmasika, sāttvika . Therefore we should eat sāttvika , and that is also after offering to Kṛṣṇa. Then we are free from all sinful reactions. And if you want to implicate yourself in sinful activities, then you can eat whatever you like. But either you eat meat or vegetables, if it is eaten for my satisfaction of the tongue, you become implicated in sinful activities, and you have to suffer the reaction. The animal you are killing, he'll kill also you next life. Then you become bound up. Indian man (6): I have one question. Though there is mention, in earlier times, we see also used to eat meat. Prabhupāda: When? *Indian man (6): Aśvamedha*-yajña , all these things, and before that . . . Prabhupāda: That is now prohibited. *If you refer to śāstra , the śāstra says in Kali*-yuga these should be avoided. Guest: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I believe that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. *Prabhupāda: At that time, when there was aśvamedha*-yajña, gomedha-yajña , that was not for eating. That was to prove the strength of Vedic mantra , how the animal was put in the fire and again gave him a new life. So where is that Vedic chanter, Vedic brāhmaṇa, yajñika brāhmaṇa ? There is no such things, powerful brāhmaṇa . Therefore it is to be avoided. And that was not for eating purpose. To put one old animal in the fire and again he comes back with new life, that was the purpose. This question was raised by Chand Kazi to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu challenged him that, "What is this your religion, you are killing your father and mother?" So he referred to this, that in . . . "Formerly they were sacrificing cows in Your śāstra ." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained that sacrifice was not meant for eating. That was meant for renovating new life. That is not for eating. Indian man (6): Another question comes. Why . . . how the caste system has crippled our society so much, was accepted by . . . *Prabhupāda: Wrongly, wrongly. Kṛṣṇa says, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So according to quality and work. That is fact. If you have got engineering qualification and if you can work as engineer, people will call you engineer- sāhīb . Is it not? So there may be a class of engineer, but that depends on quality and work. But if you have no quality, no work, how you become engineer? If you have no qualification of becoming an engineer, and you do not work, you work as a clerk, and if somebody addresses you "Engineer- sāhīb ," he is a fool, you are a fool. (laughter) So if he's not a brāhmaṇa , if you call him a brāhmaṇa , then you are fool and he is also fool. So that is going on, fool's paradise. A rascal who is not in qualification in brāhmaṇa , if he's addressed and given honor of a brāhmaṇa , he sees, "Oh, for nothing I am getting this honor, that's right, very nice." And who is giving him honor as brāhmaṇa , he's also rascal. But it is not that. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth. One must acquire the quality of a brāhmaṇa : satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42) He must be truthful, he must be self-restrained, self-controlled, full of knowledge, very simple. All these qualifications, when he acquires, then he becomes a brāhmaṇa . Indian man (6): No, even in *Rāmāyaṇa* and *Mahābhārata* we find this kind of . . . Ekalavya was discriminated, Karṇa was discriminated . . . Prabhupāda: Because he was not accustomed to the practice of brāhmaṇa . One must be brāhmaṇa by practice. That is wanted. Indian man (6): This is kind of discrimination though. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man (6): This is kind of discrimination though. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Never mind if he's born in low-grade family, but he's eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . Do you mean to say unless one becomes a first-class brāhmaṇa he can go back to home, back to Godhead? No, that is not possible. So, kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ śudhyanti (SB 2.4.18). The purificatory process . . . just like these Europeans, Americans, they are being recognized as brāhmaṇas because they are pure devotees. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He says, kṛṣṇa-bhajane nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra (CC Antya 4.67). Kṛṣṇa-bhajane , if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no such discrimination, even if you make that. Because as soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become the best Brāhmiṇ . That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He immediately becomes on the brahmam platform. And brāhmaṇa means one who knows Brahman . Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇa . So every devotee, if he's purely engaged in devotional service, he's more than brāhmaṇa . And so-called brāhmaṇa , without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is not recognized. Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syād vaiṣṇavaḥ śva-paco guruḥ (Padma Purāṇa). If a dog-eater, caṇḍāla , he has become a Vaiṣṇava, he can be guru . But a brāhmaṇa , ṣaṭ-karma-nipuṇo vipro mantra-tantra-viśāradaḥ, avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt . If he's expert, Vedic chanting and everything, mantra-tantra-viśārada , but if he's not a Vaiṣṇava, he cannot become guru . So according to our Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . that is actually according to Vedic injunction. If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you become more than a brāhmaṇa . Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and then your life is successful. And Kṛṣṇa is being distributed by Lord Kṛṣṇa. Not only He's giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema , kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ (CC Madhya 19.53). Caitanya Mahāprabhu is so kind, merciful, He's not only giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema , which is very, very rare. Aap idhar kahan tehre hain? udhar koi mandir hai? Chaliye kuch prachar to ho raha hai. Kṛṣṇa bhakti Gītā Press vishesh prachar kar rahi hai. To kaise kam chal raha hai. Teen-char mahine rahiyega idhar. Hamara jo program hai vo to aplog manenge nahi. Dekhiye na ye sab angrez log mast mundan kiya, tilak lagaya. Ye hum apko bolenge to aap bigad jayenge. Ye to hamara padatti ipehle hai mast mundan karo, tilak lagao. (Where are you staying here? Is there any temple there? Okay, at least some preaching is going on. Kṛṣṇa devotion, Gītā Press is doing special publicity. So how is the work going on? Will you stay for 3 to 4 months here? The program, what we have is not agreeable to you? Look at these foreigners, they are so happy with shaved heads, applying tilak on their forehead. If I tell you this you will get upset. This is our practice, to become shaved head and apply tilak .) Indian man (4): Prabhupāda? Buddha was the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, right? Then why he has preached the impersonal form of God? *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . (aside) You have got Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam here? Yes. Find out that, when Lord Buddha appeared, that verse. Sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). His propaganda was to cheat the atheist class of men. Atheist class of men, they did not recognize existence of God, so He became one of them. Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam . This atheist class, they were killing animals in the name of yajña like anything. So yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7), so He came as Buddha to stop this animal killing. His real business was stop the animal killing, that these rascals are going to hell in the name of religion, so at least stop their activities of animal killing. So therefore he started the mission, ahiṁsā paramo dharma , "Don't kill animals." But in the Vedas there is recommendation, in the yajña , as you were saying, that there is . . . animal killing is recommended. So people presented that, "Here is animal killing recommended in the yajña ." Therefore he denied the authority of Vedas . Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam . So this Buddha incarnation is cheating the atheist class of men. He said that, "Don't kill animals. If you are killed you feel pain. Why you should kill animals?" That was his mission, to stop animal killing, sinful activities. So what was your question? Indian man (4): I just asked why he has preached impersonal form of God. Prabhupāda: Yes, because they were all godless, so he said: "There is no God, but you stop this animal killing." That was his mission. And he said, "There is no God, but whatever I say, you accept." So they agreed. But he is God. That is cheating. (laughter) Superficially he said there is no God, but he is God. Somehow or other, if people stop animal killing and accept Lord Buddha, then he becomes at least one step forward to God realization. So in a cheating process he made good to others. Yes? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Prabhupāda: Translation. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Then in the beginning of Kali*-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Añjanā, in the province of Gayā, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theists." Prabhupāda: To delude them. Read the purport. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, appeared in the province of Gayā (Bihar) as the son of Añjanā, and he preached his own conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned in the Vedas . At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and animal killing was indulged in unrestrictedly. Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse psychological effects incurred by animal killing. Less intelligent men of the age of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time being they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps for proceeding further on the path of God realization. He deluded the atheists because such atheists who followed his principles did not believe in God, but they kept their absolute faith in Lord Buddha, who himself was the incarnation of God. Thus the faithless people were made to believe in God in the form of Lord Buddha. That was the mercy of Lord Buddha: he made the faithless faithful to him. Killing of animals before the advent of Lord Buddha was the most prominent feature of the society. They claimed that these were Vedic sacrifices. When the Vedas were not accepted through the authoritative disciplic succession, the casual readers of the Vedas are misled by the flowery language of that system of knowledge. In the Bhagavad*-gītā a comment has been made on such foolish scholars. The foolish scholars of Vedic literature who do not care to receive the transcendental message through the transcendental realized sources of disciplic succession are sure to be bewildered. To them, the ritualistic ceremonies are considered to be all in all. They have no depth of knowledge. *"According to the Bhagavad*-gītā , the whole system of the Vedas is to lead one gradually to the path of the Supreme Lord. The whole theme of Vedic literature is to know the Supreme Lord, the individual soul, the cosmic situation and the relations between all these items. When the relation is known, the relative function begins, and as a result of such a function the ultimate goal of life of going back to Godhead takes place in the easiest manner. Unfortunately, unauthorized scholars of the Vedas become captivated by the purificatory ceremonies only, and natural progress is checked thereby. To such bewildered persons of atheistic propensity, Lord Buddha is the emblem of theism. He therefore first of all wanted to check the habit of animal killing. The animal killers are dangerous elements on the path of going back to Godhead. There are two types of animal killers. The soul is also sometimes called the animal, or the living being. Therefore both the slaughterers of animals as well as those who have lost their identity of the soul are animal killers. Mahārāja Parīkṣit said that only the animal killer cannot relish the transcendental message of the Supreme Lord. Therefore if people are to be educated on the path of Godhead, they must be taught first and foremost to stop the process of animal killing as above mentioned. It is nonsensical to say that animal killing has nothing to do with spiritual realization. By this dangerous theory many so-called sannyāsīs have sprung up by the grace of Kali-yuga to preach animal killing under the garb of the Vedas ." Prabhupāda: Now there are so many rascals in this dress of sannyāsī , they are eating meat. That is going on. They say: "What is the wrong of eating meat? We can eat." They eat meat. Then? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "The subject matter has already been discussed in the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Maulana Chand Kazi Saheb. The animal sacrifice as stated in the *Vedas* is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse." Prabhupāda: There, your question. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Because the asuras , or the so*-called scholars of Vedic . . ." *Prabhupāda: Now you were referring to the Vedic principle, but that does not mean you have to open slaughterhouse. But these rascals are opening slaughterhouse. Do you think it is Vedic principle? Suppose it is recommended that animals should be sacrificed in the Vedic ritualistic ceremony. Does it mean that you shall open regular slaughterhouse? Just as the Christians say that Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they are right in opening big, big slaughterhouse? Maybe Lord Jesus Christ ate fish in some awkward circumstances, but that does not mean that he is recommending to open slaughterhouse. In the Ten Commandments he says: "Thou shall not kill." When there is absolute necessity, there is no other food, that is another thing, but if there is sufficient other foodstuff, why should you kill? They are not even human being, those who are animal killers. Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Those who are animal killers, they are not even human being, what to speak of religious system. Nivṛtta*-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt ka uttamaśloka . . . (SB 10.1.4). If you are animal killer, your God consciousness is finished. You'll never be able to understand what is God. Then your life is finished. This life is meant for understanding God, and if you are animal killer, then your God understanding is finished. Guest (1): May I ask a question, Prabhupāda? Something that I've wondered about, perhaps you could explain it briefly. I believe that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme God, so don't get me wrong, but since you mentioned Christ, was he an incarnation of Kṛṣṇa? Was Jesus Christ sent here by Kṛṣṇa from . . . Prabhupāda: No, he says that he is son of God—that is accepted. Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa was Christ's father then. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is father, and Christ is the son. Guest (1): I understand it now. I just wondered. I wanted to hear . . . Prabhupāda: He came, "I am son of God." Yes. Guest (1): And when he spoke of his father in heaven, he was speaking of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is. Yes. Guest (1): I understand. It all fits together now. Indian man (7): Swāmījī, how could you convince then these Christian people that Christ was the son of God, or Kṛṣṇa was the . . . Prabhupāda: Christ says himself that "I am the son of God." (laughter) Indian man (7): Many Christians, they do not . . . Prabhupāda: Many Christians also . . . there are so many Christian editions. That is another thing. *Bali*-mardana: We have accepted. Prabhupāda: But all these Christians, they all my students, they are coming from Christian. How they accept Kṛṣṇa as the father? Guest (1): Prabhupāda, did Christ return to the spiritual planets then, when he left the earth, to be with Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: He is coming from spiritual planets. He is authorized representative of Kṛṣṇa. We accept him as śaktyāveśa*-avatāra . So I was invited in some priestly meeting in Melbourne, they asked me the question, "What is your opinion of Christ?" So I said: "He's our guru ." (laughter) Actually, we accept him as our guru . He's preaching God's message, he's Vaiṣṇava. Anyone who accepts God, he's Vaiṣṇava. He was explaining kingdom of God, God. So according to time, circumstances, audience . . . now we can just imagine what kind of people he had to deal with, that his commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." Then understand how much they were accustomed to killing. So what kind of men they were? And not only that, in spite of hearing his instruction, "Thou shall not kill," they killed him first. So what kind of men they were, just imagine. He said: "Thou shall not kill," and they decided, "We shall kill you first." So this class of men he had to deal with. Guest (1): What would happen to the people that killed Christ on the cross? Very bad, it seems. Prabhupāda: Christ cannot be killed, but they killed themselves. Devotee (3): So we read that Christ said: "I and my father are one," so they say therefore Christ is Kṛṣṇa, so therefore Kṛṣṇa can't be God. *Prabhupāda: "One" means in quality. And in the Vedic literature we say ahaṁ brahmāsmi . That means we are one in quality. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā . So now we are material bhūtaḥ, jīva-bhūtaḥ . When we realize that, "I am not this body. I am spirit soul, I am part and parcel of God," that is brahma-bhūtaḥ . Then bhakti begins. Then he enters into Vaikuṇṭha, after Brahman realization. So Lord Buddha's finished? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No. Prabhupāda: Go on, finish it. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse. Because the asuras or the so*-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward the evidence of animal killing in the Vedas , Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas . This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted in order . . ." *Prabhupāda: Just like you said that in the Vedas there is animal killing, therefore . . . (break) That was not killing. So instead of wasting his time, he said: "I don't care for your Vedas . It is my order that you stop if you love me." Here is the same . . . you cannot open slaughterhouse giving reference to the Vedas , or any sacrifice either. The Jews and everyone, the Muhammadans, they also make sacrifice. One day in the year they sacrifice. It's not that they recommend open a slaughterhouse. This is all nonsense, rākṣasa . That sacrifice also recommended in this sense, that you cannot stop animal killing. There will be a class of men who will eat meat—to give them some concession. So this is recommended, "All right, if you want to eat meat, you sacrifice." Amongst the Hindus, just like Kālī*-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā, the animal eaters, they are given this concession that, "If you want to eat meat, you just worship Goddess Kālī," and this Goddess Kālī–worshiping is recommended on the amāvasyā , the dark moon night, one day in a month, at the dead of night. So if one goes on eating meat in this way, one day in a month and dead of night, then he'll automatically give it up, "So much botheration, better give it up." Actually deny. "Yes, you can eat once in a month at the dead of night, when everyone will sleep, nobody can hear the screaming of the animal . . ." These are the recommendations. That is indirectly denying. If one is intelligent, he'll accept it, "Why so much botheration for eating meat? Better give it up." Indian man (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are so many gurus preaching Buddhism . . . Prabhupāda: We are not talking of so many gurus; *we are talking of real guru , that's all, real guru . Real guru is he who talks in disciplic succession of Kṛṣṇa. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). That is guru . The bhumi-phala guru is no guru . Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt . Anyone who is not Vaiṣṇava, he's not guru . First, He says in the Bhagavad-gītā , Bhagavān, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Find out this. He is guru who is preaching what Kṛṣṇa has taught. He's guru . Not that anyone and everyone becomes a guru . No. If you want to be cheated by such rascal guru , that is your business, but who is guru , that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . Anyone who preaches the teachings of Kṛṣṇa, he is guru . Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "You become a guru on My order." "How shall I become guru ? I have no knowledge." Oh, you don't require any knowledge to manufacture. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, you become guru ." Everyone can become. The instruction is there. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). We say the same thing. Not that "I have become Kṛṣṇa, not . . ." We say: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Then you become guru . Kṛṣṇa's instruction; *not to become Kṛṣṇa. If you want to become Kṛṣṇa, then you are not guru , you are cheater. Suppose you are working for master. If you say: "My master has fixed up this price, you cannot change it," then you are honest salesman. And if you place yourself that, "I am the master," then you are cheater. The cheater cannot be teacher. Teacher is he who simply teaches what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. He is teacher. That is not difficult. Anyone can do it. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Whomever you meet, you simply speak to him the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Then you become guru ." And if you don't say that, if you manufacture your own words, then you are cheater, you are not teacher. The so-called gurus , they're cheater. They want to become Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are cheater. And it is very easy thing if you cheat people, that "You take this mantra and you become God." Is God so easy thing to become God? But they want to be cheated. "Purchasing mantra , I shall become God." They want to be cheated. They do not think that, "Whether I can actually become God?" They do not take the weight of His existence. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . So, what is the time now? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eight o'clock, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Prasādam . (to Swāmī) What is that book? *Swami Krishna*-prema: (indistinct) . . . '67 . . . (indistinct) . . . with three disciples, Prabhupāda: Ācchā . *Swami Krishna*-prema: . . . Bombay to Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Ah. (end) *Conversation on Bhagavad*-gita Play -- July 12, 1976, New York *(Comments on Bhagavad*-gita Play) *Prabhupāda: . . . of this human being, people do not know how they are kept in ignorance. And . . . (break) . . . because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, out of His causeless mercy He comes to deliver us from this ignorance. Unfortunately, they are so much engrossed by the illusory energy, they do not take advantage of the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. So therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is being propagated that these dull*-headed mūḍha—they are being described as mūḍha, dull-headed—they do not know actual interest of life. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum ( SB 7.5.31). These dull-headed conditioned souls, they do not know their real self-interest, being influenced by māyā. Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's energy, so it is her duty to punish the conditioned soul because they have decided to forget Kṛṣṇa. Still, Kṛṣṇa is so merciful, He comes personally, He authorizes His devotee, servant, to enlighten these conditioned souls. Now our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an humble attempt to raise the standard of these conditioned souls to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Those who are engaged in this business, they should personally behave as devotee, and by their example they should teach others and elevate them from this gross ignorance of materialistic life. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya! (break) Rāmeśvara: Either by your books, by the dioramas and by the dancing. Devotees: Jaya. Haribol Prabhupāda! (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what was your opinion, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes, is nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They also have a performance to show you of Satish Chandra Ghosh's play. Satish Chandra Ghosh, remember that play that we received in Māyāpur, that Nitāi had translated? "Lust and Envy." You gave it to Madhudviṣa, myself and Sudāmā, and you were saying, "Just think how to perform this." Prabhupāda: Satish Chandra? Sudāmā: Ghosh. He's a playwrite. In Māyāpur we received two scenes that Nitāi had entire translated in Vṛndāvana—in January when we were there together. Prabhupāda: Satish Chandra or Girish Chandra? Devotees: Girish Chandra. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Girish Chandra. Prabhupāda: Girish Chandra Ghosh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they've prepared one of his dramas also. We wanted to show you on Friday. Actually, we can show you Wednesday now. We'll only be leaving Thursday. Wednesday night. *Sudāmā: It is incomplete. It is only the first two scenes, and the rest of the drama is four acts of Caitanya*-līlā. So we are waiting anxiously for the rest of the drama to come. Presently it is incomplete. Prabhupāda: So how'll you show the incomplete? Sudāmā: In Māyāpur you were interested to see the first . . . or see the scene of the enemies—anger, lust, greed, envy—so we have worked on it. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Kali, Kali*-yuga. Sudāmā: Yes, Kali. So as the scenes come, we are planning to work on them in that succession. Prabhupāda: So you have already worked? Sudāmā: Yes, on the first two scenes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have made a very accurate portrayal of the material world. Actually, the guests who come on Sundays, they very much appreciate these performances. I've seen myself sometimes at the end of the performance, they will give a very big ovation of applause. For even one, two minutes in a row, they continue to applaud. They very much appreciate it. People are fond of seeing things enacted in theater and dance. Prabhupāda: Generally attended by Indians? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, all the guests come. No, actually this kind of performance will be more appreciated even . . . I mean the ordinary American people will very much appreciate it. Prabhupāda: Do they come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Usually at least half or more of our attendance on a Sunday is from the Americans. Prabhupāda: Americans. *Sudāmā: And here in New York is very much a theatrical city, entertainment, Broadway and . . . this theater we have here in our temple is situated in off*-Broadway. Our theater downstairs is as high a standard in its interior as any other off-Broadway theater house. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's two classes: Broadway and off*-Broadway theater. Two different classifications. Broadway is very costly, big productions, very elaborate, and off-Broadway is more simple, but also very often there are good plays there. So this particular temple is located in an off-Broadway location. And actually it's very prestigious. We can advertise, and people will attend. They will definitely attend, and they'll even pay for the performances. We don't feel that we should charge yet, until the caliber of the performance is first class and until they have some full program. Because right now, just like this play only took about . . . the dance only took about twenty-five minutes. Prabhupāda: Altogether. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Unless they have something that is at least two hours, one and half, two hours, you cannot charge for. People will definitely pay. Prabhupāda: Pay or not pay, doesn't matter. They should understand the meaning. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you feel that the message of the *Gītā* came through? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Sudāmā: The precedence of our work, Śrīla Prabhupāda, should definitely be that the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is clearly understood by all, is that correct? Prabhupāda: Along with it, if you, the same thing, more demonstrative, if you put some movies . . . *Bali*-mardana: Slides. Prabhupāda: Slide or movie, that will be more impressive. Sudāmā: Mixed media. That is also very much appealing to the public. Our future projection plan is to work on the advent of Lord Kṛṣṇa for Janmāṣṭamī, which is about an hour production to an hour and a half. And then we were planning to work on the *Rāmāyaṇa*, if it was suiting or agreeable by Your Divine Grace. *Prabhupāda: The whole basic principle is this, that people should understand that, as I was explaining this morning, the sat and asat. So at the present moment we are living in the way that is asat. But there is another life, sat. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to raise the person from the asat platform to the sat. Under illusion they are, what is called, amock? What is called? Amock? They (laughs) have gone amock. They have gone amock. So it is a humble attempt to stop their this suicidal policy. They are practically committing suicide. They do not know what is the value of life and how they are spoiling it, this valuable life. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are trying to adjust things by the arrangement of external energy. That is not possible. Whatever adjustment they are making, so many big, big leaders, politicians, they came, Napoleon, Hitler, Gandhi, this, that. By the waves of material nature everything is driven away. In that way there is no possibility of adjustment. It is not . . . kathacaturānanam mali mali javanam. How many, caturānana. Caturānana means Brahmā. They come and go, come and go. And there is no permanent life; it is all asat. So they should come to the sat platform, that is perfect. The more you remain strong in your spiritual life, then more it will be impressed, it will act. And if it actually is not spiritual life but theatrical performance, then it will not help. *Bali*-mardana: Hmm. Very important. In your book you say that when it is acted by pure devotees, then it is powerful. Prabhupāda: So do your best, try your best. That is very good. Sudāmā: Thank you, Prabhupāda. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Devotee: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- July 13, 1976, New York (Evening darsana) Guest (1): . . . what thought there is in bringing the temple and the farm closer together as one entity rather than two? Prabhupāda: Wherever we have got farm, we construct a temple also. (aside) Just explain. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The . . . just like we have so many farming communities. Prabhupāda has mentioned that wherever our farm is . . . actually we're not farmers. Guest (1): No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is trying to create a class of intelligent men, brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa is the head . . . Prabhupāda: First class. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . of the human society. So actually it's one body, one entity already, simply that with different activities that we have to perform. The example is given, mukhe bāhūru pāda*-ja , that there is the head; there's the arms; there's the belly, the abdomen; *and then there is the legs. And all of them are part of the same body. So you might say that the legs are removed from the head, or that the head is removed from the stomach, but actually it's all one body and it works together. But the head gives direction to the whole body how to act properly, so that the benefit is there to be derived. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is creating a class of brāhmaṇas , or heads of human society, who can give direction to the whole sphere of human activities so that they can become successful in human life. So in reality, we're not trying to create farmers, we're trying to create brāhmaṇas . But our farming communities are, so to speak, an example, an ideal example how human society can live: some people in the capacity of preachers, some people in the capacity of farmers, how so many activities can go on—various occupations—but all of them can be God*-centered. So in reality, these people, they're farmers, they're out there on their tractor, they can jump off their tractor at any moment and preach the highest philosophy, because actually they're brāhmaṇas . They're intelligent class of men. So it's one entity. The basic principle is that modern society is neglecting to train up, especially young men. You can see that in spite of so many universities throughout the world, these young men are being trained up how to become women-hunters and debauchers, going to the bars, going to the gambling houses, and they are supposed to be educated people. So real education is how to train up one to have ideal character, to become a brāhmaṇa . Guest (1): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Our means productive. There must be food production, otherwise how the society will live? That is also a requisition. Good direction required, good government required, good production required, and good worker required. (aside) You can explain that there is no understanding of spiritual life; that they are missing the opportunity of human life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual culture, and basically speaking the human society begins from dharma , or accepting the principle of God. Dharma begins with this acceptance of the principle of God, that human beings, their activities, have to be regulated. Just like in human society there is marriage. This is according to scripture. Every scripture regulates there must be marriage. This is dharma . It regulates certain activities that should be done, certain activities that should not be done. And basically speaking this is the beginning of human civilization; *otherwise, we're simply living in a civilization of gross sense gratification which is in reality no different or no better than the society of animals. So from dharma , human society begins, and generally . . . you can see practically that dharma generally focuses . . . people are taking that dharma is for the basis of economic development. This is proven practically because in pioneer times in America, for example, people, they were simply going to churches and synagogues and temples and all kinds of things, what have you, and economic development was going on very nicely. In fact, economic development could not have gone on unless there was this principle of religion. People were very, practically speaking . . . in a pioneer situation people are very barbaric, struggle for existence—you know, you're in the country, there is no road, there's no cities—everyone is very . . . simply interested to maintain themselves. But by churches and things of this nature, people saw the need for a civilized give*-and-take way of living—economic development. Then gradually the ideas developed further and further. But in modern days we can see that people are having economic development and there's no need for God. They think, at least. In other words, people are no longer attending churches, synagogues, things of this nature, because they are making sufficient money without the need of religion. Therefore the basic principle is being missed, that human life is not simply meant for economic development. Human life—we analyze, we can say that . . . Prabhupāda: Human life is meant for making a solution of all material problems. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That they do not know. That point is missing, that there is another life which is eternal, blissful life of knowledge. But they have no idea that we can eternally live without birth, death, old age and disease. There is no information, neither education. But there is a life very . . . if you get eternal life, then the tribulations of material life no longer are there: birth, death, old age and disease. But they have no idea or information because there is no intelligent man to understand that there is another life which is eternal life of bliss and knowledge. There is no information. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They are living like animals, no intelligence. So actually human life is meant for purifying our existential condition so that we may not be subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. That they are missing. They do not know, neither there is any education nor university. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to educate people on that line. It is not a sentimental religious system, it is an educational system, how one can transfer himself to eternal blissful life. (aside) Satsvarūpa is there? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Let him come in. When you have come? Satsvarūpa: A few hours ago. Prabhupāda: So, everything's all right? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Explain to them about eternal life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eternal life? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eternal life is described by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad*-gītā : ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇaḥ. "Eternal" means without a beginning and without an end. So this body, this human form of life or tree form of life or animal form of life, aquatic form of life, it has a beginning and it has an end. But the person, the soul, has no beginning or end. This is described by Kṛṣṇa, that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). We've experienced in our practical lifetime that we were very tiny, youth; we had a small body, child's body: kaumāraṁ yauvanam . Then youthful body, then we're having old man, old woman's body, like this. So practically speaking, this body is constantly changing. Although Kṛṣṇa gives this example because He is trying to explain a very fine point of understanding, namely transmigration of the soul: that in reality the body that we have is changing at every moment, at every instant. But we cannot see that because our consciousness is not so sharp to pick up when there's change of body. But Kṛṣṇa explains, "You can see that you had a small body, now you have a youthful body, now you have an old man's body." Actually there is a continuum of change at every moment. So this is the changing material body, and the mind likewise is changing. But the soul, the living entity, is not changing, and this is experienced practically by the fact that in spite of so many changes of body that we had, we're still the same person. Just like we can remember when we were young children playing in the park or at the streets, and then older, older, older; going to school; older, family life; older, now retired; now like this . . . (indistinct) . . . so like this the body is changing in so many ways, but still I'm the same person. This can be practically experienced. Everyone has this understanding: different bodies, but you're still the same person. *So this spiritual identity should be the real concern. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This should be the real concern of the human society, not this temporary, changing body. The whole human society is presently geared how to satisfy the demands of this temporary body. So we can see practically that this is fruitless. Ultimately we have to give up this body. Ultimately we have to give up our connection with society, with family, with everything. So everything should have its proper place naturally, but the real focus of human life should be on the soul. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness—not only the soul, but the relationship of the soul with God. So practically speaking, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual movement. We're trying to come to the platform, as Prabhupāda has been speaking in class in the mornings about sat*-dharma : eternal religion or eternal activity of the soul. Sat means eternal. Here in this material world everything is temporary. By accident you may be born in America or in India or in Japan or in a human form or in a cat form, but it's temporary. But the soul is eternal, and there is also a place, paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ (BG 8.20), another place, beyond this material world, which is called the spiritual world. And that place is sanātana, that place is eternal, and Kṛṣṇa also is eternal. So, sat, sat-dharma or eternal occupation of the soul, eternal religion, is that the living entity should be in this place, this eternal place where there's no change of body—that you have to take a body and then give it up, and then according to your work, take another body and then give it up, revolve in the cycle of birth and death unnecessarily. Go to the sanātana atmosphere, and there the sanātana Lord is there, and there the soul is in its natural environment, and the exchange of love that takes place in this spiritual world, this is sat-dharma . So this temporary world of birth and death, this is asat . Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). It's asat , it's a temporary place. We're taking it to be real just like in a dream we take that the dream is all in all. But by chanting this mantra we will awaken from this maddening materialistic way of life which is simply binding us up more and more to this false conception of attachment for this body. Practically we know that we have to give up this body, but still, because everyone in the material world, Prabhupāda explained this morning, is just like a madman. People are attached . . . just like if you are attached to your clothes and you're thinking that if my clothes are finished, I am finished. So this is a mad proposition. You can always get another set of clothes. Similarly, we are different from this body. So to be overly attached with this body or even attached at all is a form of madness. That's a fact. We analyze this soberly. Guest (1): You mentioned an exchange of love in the spiritual world. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Guest (1): Could you explain that more? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is exchanging love in this world, we see that practically, that husband and wife are exchanging love, children and parents are exchanging love, friend and friend are exchanging love. There are so many different relationships in which we exchange love. Even animals like a dog, a pet dog, is exchanging love. It's been analyzed, experiments have been done that even a plant is more productive when he knows that the person who is taking care of the plant is a friend. They speak about the green thumb. So even plants respond. They are sensitive. In a sense they are also exchanging love in a simple way. So this loving propensity is natural. The difficulty is that due to ignorance, we're exchanging love on the bodily platform, which is asat , temporary. And therefore everyone is frustrated. Everyone is frustrated. It's a false platform of love. So the real platform of love is when we come to the soul platform. Kṛṣṇa speaks about this in the Bhagavad*-gītā : *That when you come to the soul platform—it's also called brahma*-bhūta stage, or platform of the soul—then mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām : that bhakti, bhakti means transcendental love and service to God. Prabhupāda: Bhakti means, yes, exchange of love between God and the individual soul. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This becomes awaking of the spiritual platform. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is gradually to purify one, because that natural loving propensity is there. Our contention, and practically we are experiencing it, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is natural way of life. It's not artificial imposition. Rather, in this present materialistic way of life, so many artificial standards and impositions have been put upon us. We can see that because culture is always changing. One year this is right to do, the next year that's right. Everything is simply mental concoction. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is eternal; *it's never changed. We have history from the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . For millions and millions of years people have been engaged in the very same process that we're following: of chanting the holy names, worshiping the Deity in the temple, taking prasādam , association with saintly persons, like this. The very same process, it hasn't changed. And the very same sentiment of love of God is being awakened naturally. So our contention is that the love is simply misdirected. It simply has to be redirected towards Kṛṣṇa, and the spiritual master, he does this. He takes our energy, our love, our intelligence, our everything and directs it towards Kṛṣṇa. And as a result, you become purified. A very natural process. Just like we have a propensity to love, so rather than waste our love on the temporary forms of the material world, because they're all perishable . . . dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api (SB 2.1.4). First of all we love the body, deha . And apatya , we love the family members, the sons; kalatra , we love our wife; ādiṣu , we like our community, nation, so many things. But all of these things, they're temporary. They won't last; they can't endure. So all of our love practically is being wasted. It's stolen. *Prabhupāda: There is an example. In a water tank you throw one stone. It becomes a circle. And the circle expands, expands, expands unless the circle comes to the shore. Similarly, our loving affair begins from personal self to family, from family to society, community, nation, international. But still, it is imperfect unless the circle reaches to the lotus feet of God. Then it is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). Here, any loving affairs, that is more or less lusty. A man or woman love each other with some desire, not without desire. That desire is sense gratification. But actually that is lust, not love. Pure love can be exchanged in relationship with God. Here there are temporary . . . a boy, a girl, or a man, a woman in relationship of love, but it breaks as soon as the lusty desire is not fulfilled. So here there is no question of love. It is all lusty desire. Real love can be achieved when it is exchanged with Kṛṣṇa, or God. Premā pum*-artho mahān (Caitanya-mañjuṣa), that is the recommendation given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is the highest achievement, when we come on the loving platform with God. Then we are satisfied. Big, big political leaders in our country like Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country so much. But the reward was that he was killed by his own men, by his countrymen. But this is not possible when the love is exchanged between God. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). A little love for God can save you from the greatest danger of life. That is real love. *And if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you can love with everyone. Just like we are spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is out of love for Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we would have sat down at home and loved Kṛṣṇa. Why you are trying to spread this love exchange to others? Because I know or we know that here in this material world, the so*-called love exchange is frustrating, and people are being frustrated. So let him love Kṛṣṇa, then we'll be successful. This is our mission. Everyone has got loving propensity. So this child has now love for his mother, or the mother has got . . . but as soon as the child will grow, the love will finish; *he will love somebody else. When he becomes young man, his love is transferred to somebody else. So here the so*-called love is not permanent, but when you love Kṛṣṇa it is permanent exchange of loving humor or mellow. So that is required. Sai . It is called sai-bhava. Sai means permanent; it will never vanquish. You'll relish loving mellows eternally. Explain this verse. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The eighth verse of Caitanya Mahāprabhu Śikṣāṣṭaka . Prabhupāda: Śikṣāṣṭaka . Satsvarūpa: "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord." Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: This is Lord Caitanya. He wrote only eight verses about all this literature. Then there is files and volumes and volumes about love of God. So in this Śikṣāṣṭakam , eight verses, the last verse is translated as, He prays: "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He will always remain as such, even if He handles me roughly in His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, and He will remain my worshipable Lord unconditionally." So this is just the opposite. This is pure love, just the opposite of the . . . what Śrīla Prabhupāda is explaining that in this material world love is based on some desire that actually becomes a kind of business, that "I love you if you will respond in this way." What to speak of someone saying that "I love you, even if you act as a debauch. You don't have to be faithful," that's . . . "You can do as you like in your own way, but my declaration is that I simply want to serve You and You'll always be my worshipable object." So love should be like that, otherwise it is simply business, that I will give you the product if you give me the money. But the lover is the living being . . . *Prabhupāda: You shall not expect anything in return. That is real love. Just like this mother is loving child, expecting anything—no, not expecting any return. But she still she gives service. So that is as a little sample of pure love. But here also some . . . when the child is grown up, if the child is not obedient, the mother practically withdraws love. But in the spiritual world, unconditionally love is there. As it is explained, āśliṣya vā pāda*-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām. Marma-hatām (CC Antya 20.47): whatever You do, I don't mind that, but still I love You. That's all. That is pure love. Guest (1): As a mother loves the child in pure love, does that help her to also find the pure love in the spiritual world? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just like Mother Yaśodā is loving Kṛṣṇa. Nanda Mahārāja is loving Kṛṣṇa. That is pure love. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: This, this loving affair between mother and the son is a perverted reflection of that pure love. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think he's asking a question also that sometimes comes up, that if one loves in this material love, for example one loves a child or loves humanity, does this help to develop love of God? Prabhupāda: No. But if you love God, it helps to love the human beings. Guest (1): I see. It's the other way. Prabhupāda: Just like if you supply food to the stomach, it helps the eyesight, but if you supply food to the eyes, then you become blind. (laughter) Guest (1): Thank you. Devotee: Is it important for . . . like we have our children here. As we come to this movement we're like children, it's important how we are molded, we are molded into the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as for example a child, it's important how the mother molds her activities, the child's activities, mold the child's life so that as the child grows up, acts towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's asking a question Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't it important to mold the activities of ourselves and also the children who come into this movement; to mold them so that we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our gurukula is there. Now these children are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (indistinct) . . . we see how they are learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are doing the same thing: offering obeisances to the Deities, taking prasādam , chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , in the same way as his father is doing. So automatically he's being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Good association, that is required. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvidaḥ (SB 3.25.25). We are keeping this house why? For association of devotees, so that automatically they become Kṛṣṇa conscious by association. The most unfortunate position is that there is no education about future life, or the perfection of life. The education is the animal education—the animal eating, we are eating. If we are eating on table, or nice place, nice chair, then we think we are advanced. But the business is the eating. Similarly sleeping. The dog is sleeping on the street—we are sleeping in good apartment, skyscraper building. They are thinking this is advancement of civilization. But actually the business is sleeping. Similarly sex life. The dog is having sex life on the street, we are having in a very nice apartment. The business is sex. In this way our modern activities are animal activities, but in a polished way. But that does not make any difference between the animal propensities and so-called civilized life. Civilized life is there when we understand what is God, our relationship with God. That is civilized life. But that is lacking. There is no such education. The education is only the same animal life in a polished way, that's all. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, could it be said that in a society where stress is placed on developing this understanding of God, people would naturally become disinclined for these so*-called modern activities of sense gratification? *Prabhupāda: That is the best qualification. If he becomes disinterested with these so*-called modern civilized activities, that is the perfection of life. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Bhakti means the more you become God conscious, you become disinterested with these material activities. And that is needed, because material activities means you are wasting our time. What is the value of animal life? It is risky. If we become like animals, then we'll become animal next birth. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). At the time of death, the mind's position will give me another body. That is nature's law. That we do not know. There is no education how the body is being transferred, how the soul is transferred to a different body. And there are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and at the time of death, according to our mentality, we have to accept by nature's law a type of body which may not be human body. That we do not know. There is no education. The people are kept in darkness about the laws of nature. That is a very risky civilization. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes they . . . *Prabhupāda: Just like a . . . without any knowledge if we infect some disease, it will manifest in due course of time, and you'll have to suffer. Similarly, without any knowledge we are infecting the modes of material nature, and according to that modes of material nature, you have to accept a type of body which may not be very comfortable. Of course, there is no comfort when there is death. We don't want death, but there is compulsory death. There is no comfort at all. But still, the short duration of life, if we have little comfort . . . but again if we have discomfortable life, then what is the benefit of this comfort? That material laws of nature we do not know, neither any education about it. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving that education. Therefore it is not a sentimental so*-called religious movement, it is a scientific movement of real education, to solve the problems of life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think human society has been educated to even understand the problem, what to speak of a cure. Prabhupāda: Problem there is, but he's a fool. Who wants to die? Why this fire brigade is running here and there? To save life. He doesn't want to die. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They will say, though, that everyone has to die. Prabhupāda: They will say, that is . . . whatever they . . . foolishly whatever they may say, then let them say. Actually he doesn't like to die. Otherwise let there be fire. Why you call fire brigade? Let me die peacefully in the fire. (laughter) Nonsense, he's suffering, but still he says there is no suffering. That is nonsense. That is ignorance. He's suffering every moment, but he does not know why he's suffering. That is ignorance. Just like an animal you are taking into the slaughterhouse. He's suffering, he's screaming, but he does not know, "Why you have taken to slaughterhouse, and I am . . . (indistinct) . . .?" And that is animal life. And when there will be question of "Why I am suffering? I did not want this fire; why there is fire?" that is perfect . . . (indistinct) . . . is there any solution? Then there is human life. And if he remains like animal, and simply try to make some remedial measures . . . he's suffering, undoubtedly, but because he does not take it seriously, therefore he's animal. Animal does not take seriously why he's suffering. That is the distinction between human life and animal life. Suffering is there, but the animal does not take it seriously. But human life must take it seriously, otherwise he's an animal. There are so many sufferings. This is adhibhau . . . adhidaivika. Adhidaivika : by—you say accident—by nature, by superior power, some miserable condition is enforced upon us. Suppose if there is an earthquake, that is not in your hand, but it may cause some havoc. This is adhidaivika . Similarly, adhibhautika : suffering caused by other living entities. And adhyātmika , suffering caused by this body and mind. So suffering is always there, but we are suffering, we have been accustomed to suffer. But when the question is that, "Why I am suffering? Whether there is any remedy?" that is human life. Otherwise, the animal life. That is the distinction between animal and human life. If there is fire, and there are animals only, dogs and cats, they cannot call fire brigade. They'll die, because they do not know how to take measures. But human being immediately calls fire brigade just to try to save himself. But the suffering is there, either he's animal or human being. But the distinction is the human being tries to counteract it; the animal cannot. So if you simply become subject to this suffering without any remedial measure, then you are animal. And you are suffering and you try for the remedial measure, that is human life. This is plain thing. You cannot say there is no suffering. Suffering is there both for the animal and for the man. The man tries for the remedial measure; the animal cannot. Hmm, what is that? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of the modern*-day cults in America, different philosophies, they say that all of the suffering is experienced within the mind. So they try by meditation to ignore the suffering. Prabhupāda: That's all right. When there is fire you meditate. Why do you call fire brigade? If you are so great meditator, then you go on meditating. Why you call for fire brigade? Nonsense. All rascals, that's all. (laughter) Simply rascals. Mūḍha . They have been described as mūḍha . Rascals, that's all. Devotee: Sometimes they say it's just a dream, and they say if you are bothering me, and you are just my dream, I don't have to worry about it. I'll have another dream and you'll go away. Prabhupāda: No, but dream is . . . it may be, but when there is fire, you call it dream, but why do you call fire brigade? When you are diseased, why you go to physician? Dream it. (laughter) (break) The major problem is birth, death and old age and disease. We do not want that. You must seek the measures. That is human life. Whether birth, death, old age, disease can be stopped? If there is any such life that there is no more birth, death, that is human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is the Vedānta philosophy: "Now the human life is meant for enquiring about these things." If you don't enquire, then you remain animal. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save the human society from this animal life, to bring him to the real human life. Animal life means there is suffering—go on suffering. Human life means there is suffering—how to get . . . how to counteract. That is human life. Suffering . . . so long you have got this body, there must be suffering. *The karmīs . . . Ṛṣabhadeva is warning that nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma : these rascals, being mad after sense gratification, they are doing everything and anything irresponsibly. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ. Pramattaḥ means mad. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma : things which you should not have done, but he's doing it. Why? Yad indriya*-prītaya : simply for sense gratification. Therefore, He advises , na sādhu ayam : this is not good. So why it is not good? Yata , he has already got a body, material body for which he's suffering, and he's again creating the circumstance by which he'll again get a material body and will suffer. Therefore, one should act very responsibly. Not like madmen. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). *Then Ṛṣabhadeva instructs, nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This body, although I have got this body, and the dog has got the body or the hog has got the body, but these bodies are not meant for being spoiled like the dogs and hogs. The hog is also whole day working to find out where is stool. So if you also work whole day and night for our sense gratification, then where is the difference between the hog's life and my life? The human life, human brain should be sober to understand what is the problem of life, why I'm subjected to so many tribulations, how to remedy, how to find out the remedy, and that requires tapasya. Tapo divyam (SB 5.5.1). In order to create that brain, it requires a little tapasya . Therefore we are recommending no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Because we are already mad by material existence, and again we are . . . if you are forced to become more and more mad by intoxication, by meat-eating, by this . . . then where is your life? Your life is finished. Because to understand these problems of life requires a little brain. So to create that brain, this little tapasya is required. He's already puzzled, and if you make him more and more puzzled by supplying him intoxication and this gross eating of meat, then he remains in the grossest platform of ignorance. That is not human activity. The brain must be little clear to understand what is the value of life, why I am suffering, if there is any remedial measure, how can I take it. That is brain. And if the brain is used only to find out where is sense gratification, where is sex, where is food, where is shelter, where is money, then, that is, that business is being done by the hogs and dogs. *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save people from this dogs' and hogs' life and to come to the real platform of understanding the value of life. They do not know it. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They do not know what is the aim of life. Simply by false hopes they are trying to adjust things with material effects. That will never be done. Durāśayā. Durāśayā means it is useless hope. It cannot be. Just like we practically see that the here in New York City, American people are very rich and intelligent, but they cannot stop this fire, which is unwanted. They cannot stop it. That is not possible. Because they are living very high, 300 feet high or more than that, you are not safe still. You are still in the same danger. Because you are living in big, big skyscraper building, it does not mean that you will not die. Death is there also—birth, death, old age, disease, the real problems of life. It does not mean that because we have advanced in so-called material civilization, you have avoided birth, death. Even big, big scientists who gave us so many big, big inventions, but still they died. They could not invent something which will protect them from death, that "At the time of death, give me this pill so that I will not die, and I'll go on giving you more scientific advance." That is not possible. What is your question? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That some people think that by meditating they can somehow or another ignore . . . Prabhupāda: Meditating means this subject matter: that I don't want death; why death comes upon me? That is real meditation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then the problems of life are more than simply those which we perceive? Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, what is the meditation? Think about something seriously. That is meditation. But if you have no important serious thinking, simply some imagination, how it will help you? *Ādi*-keśava: Excuse me, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This evening they are having one convention here, the Democratic National Convention. One of the two big political parties in the city, at one place called Madison Square Garden. And all the television and newspaper people in the whole country will be there. They're beginning at 8 o'clock this evening. So we want to send all the devotees in the temple on saṅkīrtana party there, because we feel that not only will the atmosphere become purified, but also all the television cameras and all the newspaper people will interview our devotees and take their pictures, and they will be on television all over the country, simply because . . . Prabhupāda: That is good cause. *Ādi*-keśava: So we are requesting if all the devotees can possibly go. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Ādi*-keśava: In that way they can all attend, if we have a big force . . . Prabhupāda: At least, let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. *Ādi*-keśava: I have a feeling it could be just like with the Chand Kazi. When he was . . . Lord Caitanya made a civil disobedience mood. Perhaps if we chant loudly enough . . . Prabhupāda: No, by hearing this transcendental vibration they will benefited. *Rādhā*-vallabha: The actual presidential candidates will be there. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Presidential candidates, the candidates for the president of the United States, they'll be there. Satsvarūpa: They'll all be there tonight. Prabhupāda: All right. Go ahead, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: Thank you Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees pay obeisances) Give them prasādam . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Both of you were in India? Satsvarūpa: No, only Mahābuddhi and Bhūgarbha, who is not here right now. Prabhupāda: Oh. So? Satsvarūpa: So they were very successful. Now we're thinking we'd like to take this party all over the world if we could. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Do. Satsvarūpa: Not . . . so far we've had our scope, the United States. We wanted to make it the whole world. Prabhupāda: Why not? Books are being appreciated even by Russia. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, so the scope is everywhere. What is your experience? Devotee (2): India, Prabhupāda. It was very, very large, and I wrote you some letters, but the experience is even greater . . . Prabhupāda: (guests come in) Oh! Mr . . . come on. So Mrs. Kallman is going to become a sannyāsī . . . (indistinct) . . . gradually you have to become. Mrs. Kallman: Must. Prabhupāda: So if you feel uncomfortable, you can sit on this. Mr. Kallman: No, no. The cushion . . . Prabhupāda: You are already accustomed Mr. Kallman: I'm always accustomed. Prabhupāda: So, how are you? Mr. Kallman: Very good, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You are now in New York? Mr. Kallman: I live here. Prabhupāda: Oh. No, you live, I know. Sometimes you go out. Mr. Kallman: Much traveling, but we've come for the parade. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mr. Kallman: Down Fifth Avenue. Prabhupāda: So you often you come to the temple? Mr. Kallman: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Hmm. So? Good . . . (break) Devotee (2): Two hundreds places—universities, schools, government institutions, big ministers, temple managements for all . . . Prabhupāda: They have given all orders? *Devotee (2): Yes, most of them gave orders to our . . . even unlike, some like United States some place, they would order all seventeen Caitanya*-caritāmṛtas , and all the volumes of Bhāgavatam out, and place an order for the rest to come, plus other books. And we lowered the price to about 45 rupees, which was . . . which was right where they can afford to pay for the volumes and immediately take them. Prabhupāda: What is the usual price? Devotee (2): $7.95, which would be like too many . . . eighty rupees or something like that. It would be very expensive for India for one volume. Prabhupāda: So you have reduced the price? *Devotee (2): To forty*-five rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa made it very, very reasonable for them that they can partake. Prabhupāda: That's all right. They are taking the book. That is wanted. We don't want much profit. Devotee (2): Many, many reviewers also. Big Sanskrit . . . it's the largest in the world . . . (indistinct) . . . many professors here they also read the reviews and very much appreciate the books. All the different parts of India we visited, from north to south, east to west. Prabhupāda: They're welcome. That's nice. So make world party. Satsvarūpa: Yes, we're very excited to do that. We're going to present it to the GBC . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Satsvarūpa: . . . what our practical plan is. Take this same party everywhere—Europe and then India and then other places too. Prabhupāda: We are getting good response for our books all over the world. Mr. Kallman: Constantly growing. Any new volumes coming out? Devotee (1): We're becoming so enthused when we hear you're translating so much, because now we're getting lots of text book orders, large orders, seventy, ninety, hundred books for one class, so they . . . that's when the students are waiting for more books. They're constantly saying more and more. Prabhupāda: So, you'll get it. You'll get it. (laughs) Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, give prasādam to Mr. Kallman. Mr. Kallman: Prabhupāda, could you please accept this small donation. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Give this garland. Mr. Kallman: It's heavy! (laughs) We are still building the fund, left over from Gaurahari's work. So we're constantly putting more money into the fund, for your use, whatever. Prabhupāda: Yes, my funds are being utilized in printing books and expanding centers. My Book Trust is divided into two: fifty percent for the printing the books and fifty percent for expanding centers. Mr. Kallman: Any way I can help, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Kallman: You're going to have a big parade. My favorite. Prabhupāda: You have got that store? Mr. Kallman: Well, we're doing well wholesaling now, Prabhupāda. We sell to stores, department stores across the United States. We had to give up the store because we couldn't have, you know, timewise. Prabhupāda: Hmm. You are now making wholesale business. Mr. Kallman: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mrs. Kallman: More volume. Prabhupāda: Wholesale business is better than retail business. My father was a wholesale cloth seller, cloth merchant. So he liked wholesale business, not retail. Mr. Kallman: The wholesale is much better. It's more financial . . . Prabhupāda: A little profit, but aggregate is better. Mr. Kallman: The volume is more. Prabhupāda: Yes, volume is more. In those days, he was making cloth business, he was making profit one anna or two paise per piece. Mr. Kallman: Very small profit. Prabhupāda: Yes. The Marwari businessmen, they want to sell for . . . suppose one lakh of worth goods, if there is customer to pay him immediately one lakh ten rupees, he'll sell, immediately sell. He thinks, "I've got that ten rupees," that's all. Again for sale. That is their way of doing it. They are not calculating that, "I have invested one lakh of rupees, I must get at least ten percent profit." No. Not at loss. A little profit. "Never mind, give me cash." That is Marwari business. And he, when he goes to purchase from his supplier, he sees that this man is purchasing at a time one lakh , two lakh . So he gives him all credit. Mr. Kallman: Works on the credit. Prabhupāda: So later on, he establishes his credit; without any payment he gets supplies. And they keep their credit. On the day of payment, they must pay. Mr. Kallman: Yes, exactly. Prabhupāda: Therefore the Marwaris, they become very big businessmen. Mr. Kallman: Very powerful. Prabhupāda: Yes. These Birlas, they have become so big, they have so much credit in the market that by telephone they will ask any gold merchant that "You purchase one thousand tolās of gold for me," he'll immediately purchase, because he has got credit. Mr. Kallman: Sure, many years. Prabhupāda: And next moment he phones another gold merchant, "What is the price?" he says. Say one anna less . . . "I'll sell one hundred tolās ." So he'll purchase without any investment and sells immediately and makes one hundred tolās , one anna profit, some . . . (indistinct) Mr. Kallman: Sure. Prabhupāda: By telephone. Mr. Kallman: Very quick. Prabhupāda: In this way, they become very, very big. They know how to use this art, these Marwaris. If you are going in India, you'll see Marwaris are very quickly they will come. They know how to do business. Mr. Kallman: Volume. Prabhupāda: Volume. Volume of the . . . of course, volume of business can be done which is easily selling. Mr. Kallman: It's a very good market, the United States, for clothing. Prabhupāda: Clothing. Mr. Kallman: Yes, constantly growing. Prabhupāda: You are purchasing from Ahmedabad? Mr. Kallman: We purchase from Bombay, out of Bombay. Prabhupāda: Aḥ, Bombay. Bombay is the center. So now we are having our temple. Whenever you go, you can stay with us. Mr. Kallman: Yes, we've been out there many times. Prabhupāda: Hmm, hmm. Mrs. Kallman: In Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, Bombay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bombay also. Mr. Kallman: That's Juhu. Prabhupāda: And Māy . . . you have been in Māyāpur also? Mr. Kallman: No, we haven't ever been to Māyāpur. We keep . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm, Māyāpur also. Mrs. Kallman: How is the school in Vṛndāvana? The school? Prabhupāda: That is still building is going on. Mrs. Kallman: Have they started? Prabhupāda: After the building is finished. Mr. Kallman: Well, we know you must be very busy, Prabhupāda, with your writings and your books. Prabhupāda: Yes, at night. At daytime I don't find time. Mr. Kallman: Hmm, hmm. Prabhupāda: But at night, I write. Mr. Kallman: So, we just came to say hello. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mr. Kallman: To see you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Mr. Kallman: We'll see you at the parade. Prabhupāda: Give this to Mrs. Kallman. Yes. Mr. Kallman: Very, very much. Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Rāmeśvara: We've been talking: if these management questions come, then it is a distraction, but also . . . even if the devotees are here and it is preachings, even then it's . . . so much time is taken. So we want to do the thing which is most pleasing. So we were thinking to arrange a little less darśana with the devotees. Prabhupāda: But outsider, if they refuse, they may be sorry. Rāmeśvara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is . . . Satsvarūpa: No outsiders be refused. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Satsvarūpa: No outsiders be refused. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Ādi*-keśava: We are arranging . . . I have arranged that each time in the morning when we go for a walk, we are taking all the devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Only for outsider you keep, say, from 5 to 6, and . . . Rāmeśvara: Important men. Prabhupāda: Hah. Rāmeśvara: If they are important. Prabhupāda: Let them come one by one. If they come one at a time, they will sit down. They'll not try to go away. But if they come, sit for two minutes and go away, then another comes . . . then it will be nice interview. Rāmeśvara: I see. There must be management. Hari-śauri: And the devotees can come in the morning for class. Prabhupāda: That's right. Try this experiment. Rāmeśvara: Anything that we can do to assist you in the translating work is the best service. Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) *Rādhā*-vallabha: It's mustard oil. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: It's mustard oil with spices, and I am not sure what the fruit is. It may be mango, I'm not sure. Hari-śauri: It's some kind of crude mango pickle. Prabhupāda: Why not take little? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Do you want me to try it to see what it is? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: You have taken? What is that? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I can't tell. Prabhupāda: No taste? *Rādhā*-vallabha: It tastes like mustard oil and spices. I think it's mango. Rāmeśvara: Yes, that may be it. *Rādhā*-vallabha: I think it's green mango. Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Rādhā*-vallabha: What do you think? Hari-śauri: Yes, it's mango. Prabhupāda: It's mango? That's nice. Hari-śauri: Tastes like pickled onions. (break) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This verse that we were studying yesterday: "You are fit to propagate the cult of devotional service. Therefore gradually hear all the truths about it from Me. I shall tell you about them." Prabhupāda: This is the . . . (break) . . . to see the newest sanitary condition. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Such an important country. So nasty everywhere, park, street. What is there? This is not good sign. In other cities, you see so neat and clean. Washington, even that parkway, so neat and clean. Why this city is neglected? Los Angeles also, neat and clean. Which other cities we went? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Detroit. Prabhupāda: Detroit is . . . Detroit is also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That park was a little dirty also. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Beer cans and . . . Prabhupāda: This is national degradation. Every state full of garbage, litters. Not only now, I was living here . . . (indistinct) . . . the last ten years. At least I have seen. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of the parents of the devotees who came the other day, they said they went to Vṛndāvana, and the gentleman who brought those pictures, photographs in Washington . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . he said he was surprised how clean Vṛndāvana was. Prabhupāda: Mean, even the poorest man's house you go in the village, you'll find everything neat and clean. At least the kitchen and eating, very neat and clean. Climatic condition is also nice. Almost all the year there is sunshine. Only during rainy season the sun is . . . that is also cooling effect. After summer season, the rainy season covering, there is enjoyable cooling. Now everywhere . . . (end) Conversation -- July 14, 1976, New York (Conversation with Drstadyumna's Parents) Rāmeśvara: If we have any qualification, it is from you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: *It is bhagavad*-bhakti which makes one qualified. Rāmeśvara: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-bhakti is so nice that one becomes qualified. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now, things are becoming graver. Very soberly consider, and do the needful. It may not be broken. Always keep in mind. We are growing; There will be so many troubles, that's a fact, that it must be very gravely think also. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So the main editor is impressed? Rāmeśvara: Yes. We took him to the restaurant, and he ate the prasādam; *he liked it. And he asked some very good questions also of myself and Bali*-mardana. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Rāmeśvara: I think he has taken so many notes. He was . . . he knows the system of shorthand, so he was writing everything you said. Prabhupāda: Hah. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every word. Prabhupāda: Expert at everything. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Journalist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's a journalist. Prabhupāda: Unless one is expert journalist, he cannot . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . be editor. Prabhupāda: Be editor. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (referring to a reporter who had interviewed Śrīla Prabhupāda previously) That girl, she was not so . . . Hari-śauri: She wasn't even good for a neophyte. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking that you might talk about the thirty*-four-ounce brain. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Rāmeśvara: That is the biggest controversy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you had said that, it would have created a controversy in the room. Satsvarūpa: They think that is very unscientific statement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And very unfair. Prabhupāda: No, just see. One who says unfair, all right, let me cut your brain and we'll see. (laughter) I will show you. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the experiment—we will cut your head. Rāmeśvara: He asked me about, um . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should go. Prabhupāda, he's holding up the . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? All right. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause) Devotee (4): Two different types of paper, Śrīla Prabhupāda. For our printing the books in . . . (Dṛṣṭadyumna arrives with his parents) Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mrs. McDonough: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mr. McDonough: Your Divine Grace. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is my father and my mother, and this is Māyeśvara's father and mother. Prabhupāda: (laughing) So you are fortunate, you have got such devotee son. Mrs. McDonough: Thank you. Prabhupāda: They . . . he'll do the best service to the family by becoming devotee. By his activities you will also be delivered. Mr. McDonough: Yes. Prabhupāda: God is so kind that he delivers the father and mother, his father, mother, even though they have not done any . . . it is special concession. Just like the government, if a soldier dies in the battlefield, the government takes care of the whole family. Is it not? Similarly, anyone who has become a devotee, Kṛṣṇa takes care of the whole family. Mr. McDonough: That's reassuring. I think I need help, sir. (laughter) Well, we feel our son is very fortunate to be so active and involved here. Prabhupāda: Unless you are fortunate, how you can get such fortunate son? You are also fortunate. Mrs. McDonough: How long are you going to be in New York City? Prabhupāda: About a week more. *Mrs. McDonough: Uh*-huh. And where will you go from here? Prabhupāda: London. Mrs. McDonough: London. Are you traveling all the time? Prabhupāda: Yes, practically. *Dṛṣṭadyumna: And although he's traveling constantly and giving so much advice, he's written all these books. Śrīla Prabhupāda, our parents have read your Bhagavad*-gītā . My mother especially, she makes many notes and underlines. Prabhupāda: How do you like it? Mrs. McDonough: I like it very . . . it gives me a great deal to think about, and, ah, some I don't quite understand, because I think you need instructions, you need someone . . . Prabhupāda: What is that point? Mrs. McDonough: . . . and they can explain . . . Prabhupāda: Just take the point from the book. What is that point? Hari-śauri: If you like, if there is any question you can remember now, you can ask Prabhupāda. Mrs. McDonough: Well, right at this moment I can't . . . I read it every, about once every month I'll pick it up and read, and . . . you can't . . . I read just a little at a time. And I try to understand. I get sometimes confused, over the Arjuna and the fighting and justifying war. That seems to conflict with your principle of peace. And that confuses me, because there's a great deal of fighting and interplay among the Deity, and yet in the end they're forgiven by Kṛṣṇa. And I wonder what did they do to deserve forgiveness. That confuses me. Prabhupāda: I claim forgiveness? Hari-śauri: She can't underst . . . our Kṛṣṇa consciousness policy is live peaceful life, so she cannot understand how Arjuna could be considered a devotee and be favored by Kṛṣṇa when he's fighting on the battlefield, when he has to fight his relatives. Prabhupāda: No. He, as devotee, he did not like to fight with his relatives. Mrs. McDonough: Aha. Prabhupāda: Do you remember that point? (to devotee) Find out. Hari-śauri: Hmm. There's this section here: "Sin will overcome us if we slay such aggressors. Therefore it is not proper for us to kill the sons of Dhṛtarāṣṭra and our friends. What should we gain, O Kṛṣṇa, husband of the goddess of fortune, and how could we be happy by killing our own kinsmen?" Mrs. McDonough: So that was the point. Hari-śauri: Hmm. It is Arjuna had that doubt himself. Prabhupāda: So, so your point, that how a devotee can be engaged . . . he was not willing to engage in fighting. Devotee is always very kind and merciful. The devotee does not like to fight. But when there is need of fighting, one has to, even though one does not like. Just like the government wants somebody to be hanged. That does not mean that government is unkind to that person, is it? When a man is ordered by the government that, "This man should be hanged," does it mean the government is unkind to him? Dṛṣṭadyumna: You follow? Mrs. McDonough: No, I don't quite understand. Dṛṣṭadyumna: In other words, if government orders a man to be hanged . . . Mrs. McDonough: Hmm. Dṛṣṭadyumna: . . . does that mean that the government is unkind to that man? Mrs. McDonough: Well, it depends on what he ordered him to be hanged for. Why was he ordered? What was the reason for him being ordered? Dṛṣṭadyumna: So their question is . . . Prabhupāda: So anyway, government is authority. There must be sufficient reason; otherwise why government should order some of the citizens to be hanged? Government is not partial—the government is very kind to somebody and rude to some other. That is not government's policy. But still, government orders that, "This man should be hanged." Why? Mr. McDonough: Well, obviously for something he did. Prabhupāda: Hah? Yes. That is justice. The high court judge, he gives decree to somebody that, "This man must get one million dollars." And he gives another judgment that "This man should be hanged." Is the high court judge prejudiced? Mr. McDonough: No, but it has some responsibility. Prabhupāda: It is justice. It is justice. When you understand this point, that this high court judge is distributing justice, then he's above criticism. Mr. McDonough: For the common good. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. McDonough: For the common good. Prabhupāda: Common good. So we should not study simply by the external feature; we must know what is behind this judgment. High court judge does not require to be unjust to somebody—otherwise his name, "Justice," is useless. So God's business is: Any government, either you take this little government or this big government, there are two things: to give protection to the honest and to give punishment to the dishonest. That is required for the matter of justice. (aside) Go on. Hari-śauri: "In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Hari-śauri: "According to the Bhagavad*-gītā , a sādhu , or holy man, is a man in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. A person may appear to be irreligious, but if he has the qualifications of Kṛṣṇa consciousness wholly and fully, he is to be understood to be a sādhu . And duṣkṛtām applies to one who does not care for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Such miscreants, or duṣkṛtām , are described as foolish and the lowest of mankind, even though they may be decorated with mundane education, whereas another person who is one hundred percent engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is accepted as a sādhu , even though such a person may neither be learned nor well cultured. As far as the atheistic are concerned, it is not necessary for the Supreme Lord to appear as He is to destroy them, as He did with the demons Rāvaṇa and Kaṁsa. The Lord has many agents who are quite competent to vanquish demons. But the Lord especially descends to appease His unalloyed devotees, who are always harassed by the demoniac. The demon harasses the devotee, even though the latter may happen to be his kin. Although Prahlāda Mahārāja was the son of Hiraṇyakaśipu, he was nonetheless persecuted by his father; although Devakī, the mother of Kṛṣṇa, was the sister of Kaṁsa, she and her husband Vasudeva were persecuted only because Kṛṣṇa was to be born of them. So Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared primarily to deliver Devakī rather than to kill Kaṁsa, but both were performed simultaneously. Therefore it is said here that to deliver the devotee and vanquish the demon miscreants, the Lord appears in different incarnations. *"In Caitanya*-caritāmṛta of Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, the following verses summarize these principles of incarnation: "The avatāra , or incarnation of God, descends from the kingdom of God for material manifestation. And the particular form of the Personality of Godhead who so descends is called an incarnation, or avatāra . Such incarnations are situated in the spiritual world, the kingdom of God. When they descend to the material creation, they assume the name avatāra . "There are different kinds of avatāras , such as puruṣāvatāras . . ." Prabhupāda: Avatāra means "One who comes down." Go on. *Hari-śauri: "There are various kinds of avatāras , such as puruṣāvatāra, guṇāvatāra, līlāvatāra, śakty-āveśa avatāra, manvantara*-avatāra and yugāvatāra —all appearing on schedule all over the universe. But Lord Kṛṣṇa is the primeval Lord, the fountainhead of all avatāras . Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa descends for the specific purpose of mitigating the anxieties of the pure devotees, who are very anxious to see Him in His original Vṛndāvana pastimes. Therefore, the prime purpose of the Kṛṣṇa avatāra is to satisfy His unalloyed devotees. *"The Lord says that He incarnates Himself in every millennium. This indicates that He incarnates also in the Age of Kali. As stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , the incarnation in the age of Kali is Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who spread the worship of Kṛṣṇa by the saṅkīrtana movement (congregational chanting of the holy names) and spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout India. He predicted that this culture of saṅkīrtana would be broadcast all over the world, from town to town and village to village. Lord Caitanya, as the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, is described secretly but not directly in the confidential parts of the revealed scriptures, such as the Upaniṣads, Mahābhārata, Bhāgavatam , etc. The devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa are much attracted by the saṅkīrtana movement of Lord Caitanya. This avatāra of the Lord does not kill the miscreants, but He delivers them by the causeless mercy of the Lord." Mrs. McDonough: I have a question. Why was the school that you had in Texas moved to India? Prabhupāda: It is not. It is there. Mrs. McDonough: It is still in Texas? Hari-śauri: Yes. It's just that rather than have one central school, now we have more regional schools in various parts of the world as well as America. Mrs. McDonough: Oh. So the school is still in Texas, then? Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Small scale. Mrs. McDonough: I see. Oh, was it originally a big school here in the United States? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Right. There was one school for all the children. Mrs. McDonough: Oh, I see. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Now we have schools on our farms. Mrs. McDonough: So the children of the . . . Prabhupāda: Big, big scale, the government imposes so many rules and regulations that perhaps it is impossible. Therefore we are keeping small scale. Mrs. McDonough: So about how many students would you have in Texas now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Students are there; they are distributed now. And Texas is also going on. Because American government, they, for schools . . . these . . . what is it called? Dormitory? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, they require dormitory standards. Prabhupāda: Yes, they prescribe that, "It should be like this, it should be like this . . ." This way . . . so many standards. Therefore we have reduced the scale. Not large scale, but small scale. Mrs. McDonough: Must be . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You have been in Texas? Mr. McDonough: Yes, Dallas. Prabhupāda: You have been there? No? Mrs. McDonough: No, I haven't been. I was just wondering how many students you have. Hari-śauri: Twenty; twenty or thirty. Something like that. Dṛṣṭadyumna: We are operating a school on our farm in Pennsylvania. There is also one on the farm in West Virginia. Mr. McDonough: I was wondering why . . . I know you sent people down to Madison Square Garden last night, and they're going down there again tonight, and they're up there at the Yankee Stadium . . . and in this morning's paper I thought you got a very bad press, because they lumped you in with hippies and lippies and everything else. And what is your purpose in sending devotees to rallies? Prabhupāda: Which paper? Dṛṣṭadyumna: I don't know. I never saw it. Hari-śauri: Which paper is that? Mr. McDonough: In the Times this morning. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Oh. Mr. McDonough: The Times this morning. They said that the lippies and the hippies and the Hare Kṛṣṇas were down there yelling obscenities and everything else now. Dṛṣṭadyumna: We weren't yelling obscenities. Mr. McDonough: No, I'm saying. But this is, this is the kind of press you got. I was wondering what you are trying to accomplish by sending the devotees . . . Dṛṣṭadyumna: Well, I think that it will change tonight, because we actually had a very good interview on the TV, with one of our leading devotees. And tonight they've invited us to come back, and all three networks are going to perform . . . are going to film our chanting. Mr. McDonough: Yes. Mrs. McDonough: Tonight? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. Mrs. McDonough: On TV tonight? What time? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yeah, well I don't know for sure what time it will be shown. On all three stations. *Mr. McDonough: And it will probably be re*-broadcast. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yeah, sometimes they lump us in with all the other groups. Mr. McDonough: That's what I say. You get a very bad press that way. Dṛṣṭadyumna: But those who are actually sincere will understand that this is just bad press. *Mr. McDonough: Mm*-hmm. I've got a copy of the paper downstairs. You'd better get the article, find out who has the byline, get a hold of them and get a little instruction . . . Hari-śauri: This is the becoming our policy now, because sometimes the press are not very fair to us. Mrs. McDonough: Well, I would say that is a very good example. Hari-śauri: So we'd like to write back and explain what we're actually doing. It's very difficult, because of the spiritual nature of the movement, it's very difficult for a materialist to understand what we're actually doing. So sometimes they put us contained within another movement. Mr. McDonough: Well, I would like to understand. What is your purpose for going to rallies like that? Dṛṣṭadyumna: We are going there to perform this saṅkīrtana , distributing free food that's offered in the temple to the Deity, because there is spiritual benefit derived from eating this food. And also . . . Mr. McDonough: To the people who are there. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, the cookies and sweets. *Mr. McDonough: Mm*-hmm. Dṛṣṭadyumna: . . . and also performing this chanting, which actually, if one listens, is very beautifully done with cymbals and drums and many voices. Its like in a church choir, very beautiful chanting the names of God. Because if anyone hears these names of God it will cleanse the heart, and also this, we are giving to all the Democrat delegates and all the people there literatures that explain our movement. Mr. McDonough: Well, I think you write them, and get back to the paper. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Actually, in New York City I think is the most favorable place in the world for us. We just received from the police a letter wishing to reprint an article with His Divine Grace and an interview with the police chief in Chicago. *Mr. McDonough: Mm*-hmm. Dṛṣṭadyumna: They want to now print this in their police journal for all the New York policemen, because the comments His Divine Grace made on how the policemen could stop crime in society were very much appreciated by the police. So we are . . . Prabhupāda: They have published that? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, they will publish that article, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where is that? Hari-śauri: I think once . . . I think you saw that before. They asked for permission to reprint that article. Maybe in Hawaii. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja had . . . Dṛṣṭadyumna: Mostly in Chicago. Mr. McDonough: It was in Back to Godhead. I think I read it. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yeah, you read the article. So the local policemen here, the editor of the policemen's paper, he has read that article, and he wants to print it now in his journal for all the policemen in New York. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Dṛṣṭadyumna: And actually the policemen here, they like the devotees. They never harass us, and even though sometimes we hand out food without permit, they don't bother us. They are very friendly towards us. Mrs. McDonough: Is there any way that you can get on good terms with a reporter so that whenever you have publicity, you can go straight to this person, not that you are going to get . . . Dṛṣṭadyumna: We have hired a public relations firm, which is . . . just like there is a Newsweek reporter coming . . . or came? Hari-śauri: Came today, and Newsday also. Mrs. McDonough: And he is going to cover your parade? Dṛṣṭadyumna: Right. Oh, the parade will be covered by all the TV stations and newspapers. So I think by this counterpropaganda, that will minimize the effect of these little . . . Mr. McDonough: Yes. You have to combat the tendency for people who lump the Moonies and the this and the that together, you know. Everybody asks me how does the Kṛṣṇa movement feel about the Moonie movement. *Hari-śauri: Yes. At the moment they're thinking we are some cult, they don't understand the spiritual value. This is not some concoction. Just like Śrīla Prabhupāda always quotes from Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . And he's not translating these books as a pastime; the purports there are very serious. If anyone reads them, then they will understand that this is very serious and that actually there is some real spiritual benefit. *Dṛṣṭadyumna: You saw that book, "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is an Authorized Movement"—I just gave my parents a pamphlet—and you saw all the recommendations from all the professors, for these books. So that immediately separates us from all these other groups which have no substantial philosophy or any type of authority or historical cultural reference. They are just modern*-day creations of some . . . who knows what their motivations are, these men. *Mrs. McDonough: Well, there was an article in Readers Digest within the last eighteen months or so, and I'm not sure, but I believe they listed four counter*-cultures. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Four groups, right. Mrs. McDonough: . . . and I believe that the Hare Kṛṣṇas were listed with the Moonies. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Yeah, we were listed with the four. But I think as these groups drop by the way . . . Prabhupāda: We have got standing orders for our books from so many libraries. Hari-śauri: This is the one thing about our movement that is different from everyone else, that every leading professor in every top university in the world is accepting standing orders of Śrīla Prabhupāda's books, because they very much appreciate the scholarship and the learning and the wisdom and the practical value of these books. Mrs. McDonough: But these books are all different translations, aren't they? *Hari-śauri: Hmm. Just like this is the Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . You can also get many other versions of Bhagavad-gītā , but Śrīla Prabhupāda's called it Bhagavad-gītā As It Is because he's a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, so he can actually explain what Kṛṣṇa's intentions are in the Bhagavad-gītā when He speaks it. Whereas a person who has his own ulterior motives, he simply changes everything that Kṛṣṇa says to prepare his own philosophy. He utilizes the fame of the Bhagavad-gītā as a philosophical text so that he can become a famous philosopher or a politician or whatever, like this. But Prabhupāda's presenting the Gītā as it is. It means that if you read it, you will become a devotee, and that's practical, 'cause before Prabhupāda came there were no devotees. Six hundred editions of Bhagavad-gītā in the West, and not one single devotee ever came from any of them. But as soon as Prabhupāda started to speak what it actually was, immediately so many hundreds of devotees are coming, and like that. Dṛṣṭadyumna: Also, there is a difference in the quality of these disciples. These other groups, they don't have any kind of structure or discipline, whereas Śrīla Prabhupāda has given us four regulative principles to follow, rising early in the morning . . . they . . . none of these groups have the strength to follow any type of discipline. So gradually we see they're falling by the wayside more and more. And we have practical experience when we are traveling on the buses distributing books, we are going to distribute now one million magazines in the coming six months, and about over three hundred thousand big books—just a hundred men. So the people are well receiving this literature. The other groups, when they approach, they are simply taking from the people some money. But we're giving literature, valuable literatures, at almost at cost, and people actually appreciate the difference between our presentation and others simply with materialistic motivation. Prabhupāda: Our mission we are presenting in writing, not that we are saying some superfluous that is entering this ear and going out that ear. No. Our proposition is recorded; you can talk on that basis of that recording. Hari-śauri: Even in India, one of the criticisms used to be that we weren't . . . we were established in the West but we weren't there in India, which is our roots. But just in the last three months over two hundred standing orders have been taken in all the Indian universities. So this is substantial evidence that even the Indian scholars are appreciating. Actually, we found in the last two years that the whole Indian population is becoming very appreciative of the activities of ISKCON. And they're accepting Śrīla Prabhupāda as being an actual spiritual master, not a cheater, not a fake guru . So we . . . as far as ourselves are concerned, we know that in the coming years, as Dṛṣṭadyumna was saying, gradually we'll be separated from everyone else, because everyone will understand this is actual . . . this is actual benefit here; it is not some cheating bogus religion or some cult, like that. It is practical benefit. Mr. McDonough: Time is on your side. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. *Mr. McDonough: It's a long*-cycle product life. (laughter) Well, I know His Divine Grace is very busy . . . (indistinct) . . . and I hope you enjoy your stay in our country, and I'm glad that our sons are associated with you. And I hope they follow you and emulate you as they go through life. *Prabhupāda: I am much obliged to the American boys for their co*-operation. Mrs. McDonough: I thank you for being . . . Dṛṣṭadyumna: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mr. McDonough: Goodbye, sir. Prabhupāda: Give this garland, one garland, to your father. Mr. McDonough: Oh, reminds me of when I was in India. (laughter) Hari-śauri: Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mr. McDonough: . . . (indistinct) Dṛṣṭadyumna: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: I'll do it. You go down . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, go with your father. A good father. *Hari-śauri: Very nice. He's very favorable. I think all the parents, when they actually see their sons, they're becoming purified, they can understand that . . . especially someone like Dṛṣṭadyumna's father, he's such a very important . . . considered very important man in society. That Seagram's wine and whiskey company—very, very big, biggest in the world. And he also is the president of some big business organization which stretches out all over the world. He's very influential man. It's very . . . (laughs) As soon as we quote the Bhagavad*-gītā or the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , then immediately everyone has to listen. Even they may have some objection or some doubt, as soon as we quote the books, then everything is finished, our position is established. (pause) Hari-śauri: Now we have to make strong propaganda against the press. Prabhupāda: You cannot make propaganda against the press. Hari-śauri: Well, not against them, but to correct them. (end) Conversation -- July 15, 1976, New York *(Radha*-Damodara bus to Gita-nagari farm) Prabhupāda: You can keep in that room? Hari-śauri: Yes, if there are any visitors that come, we'll play them. The small ones? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: So tomorrow we'll be traveling to the farm and then coming . . . returning Friday morning. And then I think in the afternoon, Friday afternoon, there's the Associated Press are coming, and also this lady from the magazine wanted to come. Prabhupāda: Which lady? Hari-śauri: From this India magazine? This one I just showed. The thing is, Rāmeśvara was thinking it might be too much if you did two interviews straight after each other. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Yes. So we should arrange for her to come another day. Prabhupāda: Where is that magazine? Hari-śauri: Well, they took it out. Prabhupāda: India ? Hari-śauri: You would like to . . .? I'll bring one so you can read. (break) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There is no other seat? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we have another seat for you. Prabhupāda: Only one bus is going? (break) (on bus) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . going about 55 miles an hour. Hari-śauri: (to devotee) If you hold this microphone next to your mouth—don't press that trigger, though—and then I'll put it onto the speaker . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I don't think so. He's just going to read. Devotee: I don't have the . . . (break) Devotee: (testing microphone) Jaya , all glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! All glories to Śrī Guru, Śrī Gaurāṅga! (break) Prabhupāda: . . . what is sun. Sun is situated in one place, everyone can see. But the heat and light, it expands. The heat and light is impersonal, but the sun is personal. Now one can imagine which is important—the heat and light or the sun? Which is important? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The sun is the most important. *Prabhupāda: So why do people give importance to imperson, less important? What is the meaning? The meaning is the fiery place is situated in one place, everyone can see. But the heat, ninety*-three million miles from earth, expands. Because the sunshine is so widely expanded, it does not mean that it is more important than the sun. Go on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (reading) "Lord Kṛṣṇa naturally has three energetic transformations, and these are known as the spiritual potency, the living entity potency and the illusory potency." Viṣṇu-śaktiḥ . . . (break) *"Originally Kṛṣṇa's energy is spiritual and the energy known as the living entity is also spiritual. However, there is another energy called illusion, which consists of fruitive activity. That is the Lord's third potency. For further explanation of this verse, refer to the Ādi*-līlā, Chapter 7, verse 119." "All the creative energies, which are inconceivable to a common man, exists in the Supreme Absolute Truth. These inconceivable energies act in the process of creation, maintenance and annihilation. O chief of the ascetics, just as there are two energies possessed by fire, namely heat and light, these inconceivable creative energies are the natural characteristics of the Absolute Truth." "This is a quotation from the *Viṣṇu Purāṇa*. " "O King, the kṣetrajña-śakti is the living entity. Although he has the facility to live in either the material or spiritual world, he suffers the threefold miseries of material existence because he is influenced by the avidya (nescience) potency, which covers his constitutional position." "This and the following verse are also quoted from the *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* ." Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . tāratamyena vartate . "This living entity covered by the influence of nescience exists in different forms in the material condition. O King, he is thus proportionately freed from the influence of material energy to greater or lesser degrees." Prabhupāda: Inconceivable. That portion reads, what is that written? You read from "inconceivable"? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "All the creative energies which are inconceivable to a common man exist in the Supreme Absolute Truth. These inconceivable energies act in the process of creation, maintenance and annihilation. O chief of the ascetics, just as there are two energies possessed by fire, namely heat and light, these inconceivable creative energies are the natural characteristics of the Absolute Truth." Prabhupāda: That inconceivable energy, the scientists they are trying to conceive. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they can't. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Everyone knows that due to sunshine there are leaves in the trees, green and different colors. Everyone knows, due to the sunshine. But how this sunshine, this heat and light, these things are coming into existence? They are studying, what is called, molecules? Molecules. Hari-śauri: Yes, molecular structure. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Polygons. Prabhupāda: So many things. But they cannot make it. Although they are seeing due to the sunshine these colors are there . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot explain. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (bus now stationary) This electrical system, this one works when you plug the bus in. Like if you are at a campground, then these go on, and these are very bright, fluorescent. And then when traveling, this system works. Therefore we have two separate light switch panels. One is for when we plug into the regular current, and the other one is on the road. The kitchen is very nice. I wanted to show you the kitchen, Prabhupāda. It's a very different kitchen than the one that you saw originally. This is a very big kitchen. Five men can stand there. Very big. Cooking, very convenient. We've improved the buses since the last time you were here. Prabhupāda: Hmm. These scientists, they will not admit that Kṛṣṇa is the original cause . . . (indistinct) . . . they are trying to invent so many things and pacifying their followers, "Wait for millions of years. We will give you all solution." That millions of years will never be fulfilled, and their suffering will never go. That they do not know. Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra (CC Madhya 20.117). This life they make researches, and when they are failure they give bluff, "Wait millions of years." In the meantime he becomes a grub. He has to wait millions and trillions of . . . that's all. Again begin transmigration from grub to plant, plant to this, that, this, that. Stand up for thousands of years as a tree. Then another tree, another thousand, millions. You wanted to wait for millions, then you wait for millions. How long can you wait for . . . in this way, by transmigration. This is their destiny. And in this very life that I am prepared to go back to home, back to Godhead, that path they will not. They will wait millions of years to see their success. This is rascaldom. Wait millions of years. They do not know how they will wait. They will wait this way, again become grub. Then gradual evolution. It will take millions and trillions of years. Then again he will come to human form of life, and again he will say: "Millions of years." This is their intelligence. Hmm? What do you say? Hari-śauri: Why wait? *Bali*-mardana: Kṛṣṇa fulfills everyone's desires. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not wait. Prabhupāda: This is their intelligence, these rascal scientists. Their intelligence is they admit they will wait. But he is eternal, so eternally he must get some body to wait. And if he says that after this life everything finished, then what is the meaning of wait millions of years? If I am going to be finished, you are going to be finished after this life, then there is no question of waiting for millions of years. Who will wait? You are finished, I am finished, then who will wait? Devotee (2): They say they're working for the children in the future, make a better future. Prabhupāda: But you are not going to wait. You are finished. And I am here, I am finished. And the children who will come, they will be finished. Who will wait? Who will wait? Devotee (2): No one. (break) Prabhupāda: Rascals wait for millions of years. So who will wait? Devotee (2): They think in terms of past generations. They see the progress of society from two thousand years or four thousand years, and they think of themselves as a part of that generation, that in the future, "Just see how far we have come from a hundred years." *Prabhupāda: Part of a generation, that's all right. But a generation, so*-called generation, you and me, everything will be finished. So who will wait? That is my point. Devotee (3): What are they waiting for? Prabhupāda: Hmm? You wait or not, you will be finished. Devotee (4): They are thinking that this is pursuit of the truth, that they are trying to theorize. Prabhupāda: Fools will follow you. And wherefrom he is coming with so much intelligence that the truth which you have discovered, somebody will come and catch up. His life, there is no continuation. Then there is no question of accepting your truth. We may not accept your truth. So many questions are there, but they are bluffing. Mūḍha nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). What is going on there? Devotee: We're trying to fix this . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is the science, they will have to wait millions of . . . that is a fact. But how they will have to wait, that these rascals they do not know. They will have to wait in this lower grade of life. Devotee (2): Can a living entity have realization of transmigration without being Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: Hmm? It is very easy, but you are so fool, you cannot understand it. Kṛṣṇa is giving immediately. The child is transmigrating to the boy's body. The soul is from boy's body is going to youthful body. Very plain explanation. But because the brain is so dull, they cannot understand. Under their scientific brain, they have become so rascal that the simple truth they cannot understand. This is their scientific advancement. Hmm? (pause) Prabhupāda: Why we are checked? Stopped? Devotee (2): They are shifting some equipment for cooking. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They consider, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this is the same . . . they have a sense of not changing. That's there because the soul is not changing. Everyone has a sense that they are not changing because the soul is always there. But because they have no information of the soul, sometimes they think that because I have this body as a youth, I have this body as an old man or youthful person, the point is that they consider that it's the same person, the body, it hasn't changed. They stay the same person, simply it has grown, because they have the sense of the same identity. But can it be said . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Grown means the original form is changed. You can call it in a different name, but grown means the original form has changed. We are also changed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So can it be said that one has the same body, or is it a different body? Prabhupāda: Hmm? It is different body. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is different. Prabhupāda: Otherwise why more species coming? It is a different body. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the energy by which one conceives that it's the same body? Is that the false ego, by which he thinks that this is . . . Prabhupāda: No, dull brain. That Darwin's theory is that. Just like we are coming from apartment to this bus. This rascal says that apartment has become bus. That is his foolishness. I am the person from that apartment, I have come to this bus, it is a fact. But he is such a rascal, he says that apartment has become bus. That is the foolishness. How the apartment can become bus? You can say the person who was in the apartment, he has come into this bus. That is a reasonable understanding. But these rascals says that apartment has become bus. The monkey has become man. Devotee (2): Like people sometimes go into a theater and they identify themselves with a motion picture. The movie that's on a screen, they become so emotionally involved, they cry and they laugh and they become completely involved with the picture. Prabhupāda: That is feeling. That is not identity. Devotee (2): (to another devotee) Want me to pull it while you hold it up? Prabhupāda: There are many buses standing? Devotee (2): This is a parking area for trucks. It's a rest area. We're just shifting some cooking equipment so they can prepare something. Hari-śauri: We're going now. They just fixed that window. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A wonderful philosophy. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is a wonderful philosophy. It never becomes boring. Never. Prabhupāda: So this wonderful philosophy you have to present. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's going to be nice and much quieter now, Prabhupāda, with this window closed. Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . without this way of life that you've given us, life would be intolerable in the material world for one who is thoughtful. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is discussed (indistinct Bengali) Unless one understands this philosophy, he simply suffers. And because they are suffering, their only solace is this wine. They cannot find out any other. The more dull*-headed, this liquor is solace for the śūdra class. In India, the liquor is taken by the lowest class, not intelligent class—the washerman, the cobbler, the butcher, like that. Most less, degraded. (bus restarts) Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra-duḥkha . You continue to suffer. They are missing the point, struggling for existence. They have created this civilization, material civilization, full of factories. It is simply suffering, nothing but suffering. Maybe the factory proprietor may get some profit, but actually it is a place of suffering. Those who are working in the factory, they are simply suffering. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is mentioned here. Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra*-duḥkha. *Prabhupāda: Saṁsāra*-duḥkha . Create suffering, one after another. Suffering. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "When the living entity forgets his constitutional position as an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, he is immediately entrapped by the illusory external energy." Prabhupāda: Become a servant of . . . (indistinct) . . . we are servant of Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) We are not going to be servant of . . . (indistinct) . . . unless I give up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no scope for being . . . to become servant. Just like this Subala, he is now washing dishes in a hotel. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And I heard that Madhudviṣa is now sweeping a floor in a restaurant. Prabhupāda: What do you think? (laughs) And what you were doing? Devotee: Me, I was selling jewelry. Prabhupāda: I heard that you are driving car, you are a taxi driver. Devotee: I tried it for a few weeks. For a couple of weeks. Prabhupāda: We have to do this. As soon as we give up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, these things are ready, "Come on." Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare. "Yes, please come." There is no other alternative. Either serve Kṛṣṇa or serve māyā , that's all. So unless one is rascal, how he will accept māyā's service? Māyā's service is not very palatable. But māyā is ready. As soon as you give up Kṛṣṇa's service . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- July 16, 1976, New York (Conversation After Interview with Religious Editor, Associated Press) Prabhupāda: Because they are accustomed to the business of hammering the bricks from time immemorial, they think, "This is the business. How is that this man is not engaged in this business?" Hari-śauri: Even after he'd understood the analogy that the man was in the prison and hammering bricks, he was still thinking that, "Well, shouldn't he still be hammering bricks?" He was asking that. He was still thinking like that. It's amazing. *Rādhā*-vallabha: He couldn't understand any of the analogies. Prabhupāda: That is the karmīs . Even the Orissa politicians, they accused Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Because the Orissa politician . . . it is a fact the Mahārāja Pratāparudra, the King of Orissa during the time of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he was politically very strong. At that time the Muhammadans were conquering different parts of India, but they could not enter Orissa or the southern India. They were very strong. So this Mahārāja Pratāparudra politically was very strong. So the modern politicians of Orissa, they accuse Caitanya Mahāprabhu that, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to Orissa and Mahārāja Pratāparudra became influenced by Him, Orissa fell down. They accuse sometimes that Orissa's political position became weakened on account of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's influence on Mahārāja Pratāparudra. They say. The modern politicians of Orissa, they also do not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. *Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? There's this editor from that Trans*-India magazine downstairs, but also that . . . the doctor is there as well. So would you like to see the doctor, or would you like to do another interview, or . . .? They tried to . . . they were trying to contact the Trans-India to have him come another day, but apparently it doesn't seem as though they did it. So they've come hoping to get an interview. Prabhupāda: So that you decide, which is important. Hari-śauri: No, I . . . we'll see if we can arrange it. Would you like to see the doctor? *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, the Trans*-India if he wants. Hari-śauri: I'll see. Whatever I can . . . Prabhupāda: They can wait, or one of them may come. (aside) So what is the news? Ātreya Ṛṣi: The karmīs decided they want to have a meeting. Prabhupāda: Oh, that GBC meeting. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, no. My karmī friends, on the 19th in New York. Prabhupāda: Oh, your business. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They always decide on perfect timing. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: That's nice. I shall prefer to see the Trans*-India first, because they will give some publicity to our movement. *Rādhā*-vallabha: So we'll tell the doctor to please wait? Prabhupāda: Yes. All right, he has gone to where? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He may bring the doctor up first. Prabhupāda: All right, let him come. So who is the chief man dealing with this? Who is the chief secretary, all these visitors? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Bali-mardana has been greeting them, because Rāmeśvara is involved in the GBC meeting. Prabhupāda: So you have been in the GBC meeting? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, I was earlier. Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter? Ātreya Ṛṣi: We discussed Jagadīśa Prabhu's request to primarily attend his engagement with gurukula , and we also discussed Satsvarūpa Gosvāmī's desire to attend primarily Library Party. Prabhupāda: It is good proposal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We discussed various difficulties that have been happening in Australia, and that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa should go there and help for . . . just for a visit, just to help. And then they will report to you. Prabhupāda: What is Iran's business? Going on? I got some good report from Nandarāṇī that she is in contact with the Shah's daughter, princess. Is that a fact? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, Nandarāṇī Prabhu is doing very well. She's got a gurukula , a school for the Indian children—they are being well attended. Also Mahārāja, Parivrājakācārya Swāmī, he has been in touch with the Shah's daughter, and he's been preaching to them. *Prabhupāda: Shah's son*-in-law is interested, I have heard. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, he is interested. *Prabhupāda: That's good. They are enlightened, the daughter and the son*-in-law both? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, they are both interested, but they are also very much . . . Prabhupāda: Biased. They are also biased. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is natural. *Hari-śauri: The Trans*-India people, they'll come tomorrow at four-thirty, if that's all right. Prabhupāda: Yeah. Hari-śauri: And the doctor's on his way up now. He'll be here in five minutes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Dayānanda Prabhu is doing very nicely. Prabhupāda: Very nicely. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very, very first class. Prabhupāda: What he's doing now? Ātreya Ṛṣi: First of all, he's helping in every program we have. He's very cooperative, very intelligent boy. Prabhupāda: Yes, he's very good boy. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And he's also working as a computer man, very good job. Prabhupāda: Oh, a good salary? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, very good salary. Prabhupāda: He knows computer? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Yes, he's good electrician. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So where he is employed? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He's employed with one of my clients. Prabhupāda: Oh. So what salary? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Sperry, Sperry Univac. Prabhupāda: What salary he is getting? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Ah, he's getting about twelve, thirteen hundred dollars now. Prabhupāda: Salary? Yes. He was getting in America six hundred. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Getting double. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And he will get a lot more and more. He will get a lot more. And he is . . . we have our regular programs, he brings people from business, we all bring people, and the prasādam and chanting and lecture. It's very nice. Prabhupāda: And so Nandarāṇī is also working? Ātreya Ṛṣi: She is happy. She, for a while she taught at a karmī school. From that school . . . Prabhupāda: She has got experience. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, she's very good. Very first class. Prabhupāda: Both of them are very intelligent. And Nandarāṇī is more intelligent than her husband. (laughs) I know that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I find that he is very intelligent, Śrīla Prabhupāda, really. Prabhupāda: Ah, Dayānanda. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: He is intelligent, but Nandarāṇī is still more intelligent. (laughs) I know that. Both of them are intelligent, but this girl appears to be more intelligent. That's all right. What about their daughters? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They are there. They're very happy. Prabhupāda: Where? Ātreya Ṛṣi: In Tehran. Prabhupāda: They have gone there? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They have come. Prabhupāda: Oh, when? Ātreya Ṛṣi: About two months ago, a month. Prabhupāda: I saw them in Los Angeles. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, they left. Hari-śauri: Must have been just after we left there. Ātreya Ṛṣi: A month ago, five, six weeks ago. Prabhupāda: They have got two daughters. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. They are there. They also attend gurukula . They have it regularly now. (indistinct background comments among devotees) *Bali*-mardana: So that reporter was very impressed. He's a very big reporter. He works for the API, the Associated Press. They give their news to papers all over the world, the news. Prabhupāda: So let him represent properly. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. You have given him a very unique interview, I think, with your analogies. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is there. Why they think Eastern, Western, Jewish and . . .? We are talking of the human being. That is the misunderstanding going on, that this is Hindu religion, Eastern religion. Kṛṣṇa begins from the word dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). Find out this. The rascals are taking Hindu, Muslim, Christian. Dehe , the body, and the inner force of the body, He's beginning His teaching. Where is the question of Hindu, Muslim, Christian and Jewish? Still they are misunderstanding, "This is Hindu." *Bali*-mardana: It is very hard for them to understand. Prabhupāda: This is science. Read that. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Now, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā , boyhood, childhood, youthhood, old age, is it for the Hindus? The Christian do not become child, do not become youth? (guests enter) Aiye. Aiye baithiye. (Come, come sit.) Hari-śauri: This is Dr. Bhagat. Prabhupāda: Bhagat. You are from Gujarat? Dr. Bhagat: Gujarat, yes. Hari-śauri: He's one of our Life Members also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: She's your wife? Child? How many children you have got? How many children you have got? Dr. Bhagat: One. Prabhupāda: Only one? *There is no need of hundreds of rascal child, children. One is sufficient. Varam eka. Varaṁ guṇī*-putra , he must be qualified. And who is guṇī ? Who is a devotee and learned scholar. Ko'ta putreṇa jātena, yo na vidyā na bhaktimān . What is the use of such rascal child if he's not a devotee, neither learned? Khanena cakṣuṣā kiṁ cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam . What is the use of blind eyes? It is simply troublesome. So let there be one child, but he must be like Prahlāda, like Dhruva Mahārāja, and then child production is beneficial. Otherwise, if we beget children like cats and dogs, what is the use? That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. Another example is given: ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā-sahasrasaḥ . If there is one moon in the sky, it is sufficient to give light to the whole sky. What is the use of millions of stars? So, it is very good that you can take care of one child and make him a great devotee and learned scholar. Then it is successful. So Dr. Bhagat, I get some pain. It is . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- July 17, 1976, New York Indian man: I came to offer my obeisances to you. I became a Life Member as a result of Gopāla Kṛṣṇa's talking to me. Prabhupāda: In Bombay? Indian man: No, sir, here. I came to offer you obeisances in Brooklyn temple, and I asked you a special permission as my Gurudeva, which you gladly gave me, to teach *Gītā* in Poughkeepsie, where I am. And since then I have been trying to do your work sincerely in Poughkeepsie. Prabhupāda: Poughkeepsie. Indian man: Yes, sir. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Indian man: It is hundred miles north of New York. I work there. I am an engineer, and I have been trying to spread Kṛṣṇa conscious movement of yours, trying to teach from your *Gītā* to the Indian community, and I have been slowly trying to get American people also involved. And, as I see, more and more American people are now coming in. And in fact, those people who are very steadfast, who come to attend my class, are the American people. I am very glad to see that they are taking very great interest. And . . . Prabhupāda: Indians are not taking so much. Indian man: No, sir, I'm . . . Prabhupāda: Indians are bara sāhīb . (laughs) Indian man: Ah. You see they have been going to . . . Prabhupāda: Ready? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I wanted to just finalize when you would join the festival tomorrow. I wanted to fix that up, so I could, you know, just do that. We're leaving Fifty*-ninth Street at two o'clock, and we're reaching downtown, the park, at four o'clock. In other words, it takes two hours, the route. At four o'clock we're going to have a Winnebago. Winnebago is like a small bus which has a . . . it has a lavatory in it. Hari-śauri: Like Satsvarūpa Mahārāja's traveling bus. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. It has a bathroom in it. That's going to accompany the parade in case at any time you require it, that will be right there. So it can pull alongside the cart. At four o'clock we'll arrive, and at about four*-thirty Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja will give a short introduction for you, and at four forty-five you'll speak. So at four forty-five you're expected to give the lecture. It begins at two o'clock at Fifty-ninth Street for two hours. Then by five, five-fifteen, the whole thing will be over. So I wanted to know what time you would like to join the parade. Prabhupāda: So you suggest. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it depends on a number of things. One thing is that your rest. After taking massage you take prasādam , and then your resting period. Another thing is how long you want to ride along on the cart. It depends on . . . I think it should depend on . . . I can't . . . no*-one can make that decision. We're agreeable to anything that you suggest. Devotees are enlivened simply that you're here in New York with us. Prabhupāda: So at two o'clock you start? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Prabhupāda: You want me at the starting point? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We want you to do simply what you feel would be best. Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the best? Starting point, my presence required? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it's not a question of required. I mean that's a very exciting time, you know, but I don't know if it's . . . I wouldn't say it's required. We're going to start. One way or the other, we have to start the parade. It's exciting at that time, probably, but you could also join midway. Suppose you could also join at Thirty*-fourth Street instead of Fifty-ninth Street. Halfway is about Thirty-fourth Street. So you could join there. Prabhupāda: That will be better. Hari-śauri: That would be about three o'clock. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That would be at about three o'clock. It depends upon your resting period also. Prabhupāda: No, that I will adjust. That is not the thing. I want to know when my joining will be very good. That I want to know. In the beginning or the middle, in the last, that you have to decide. Then I shall adjust. In London, I think . . . of course, the whole route I was present, but that was little troublesome because sometimes I am called by nature. But you say there will be a car. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, which is equipped . . . Prabhupāda: So under the circumstances, which time will be good? That you say. Then I shall adjust. That you consult, which time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, if I can have about five minutes, I'll ask a few people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then I'll adjust. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you're agreeable at any time as long as that convenience . . . that's a good convenience, I think, that we'll have that vehicle. Prabhupāda: That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I'll just inquire. This is a general idea of what's going on the whole day tomorrow. I'll leave it with Hari-śauri. Prabhupāda: The preaching is going on. Nobody has become our student? Indian man: Among the Indian people . . . Prabhupāda: Indian or European or American, it doesn't matter. Since you are preaching there, has anybody joined this movement? Indian man: No, sir. I have been begging. I've been begging people. Now I know that two American people will become steadfast, and I will make them . . . sure that they join the movement, but among the Indian people, this is the problem. Prabhupāda: Whether you have joined? *Indian man: I have joined. I'm a Life Member. I come to the temple. I study your books all the time. I have your photo. I do your ārati every day without fail. Without fail. Nayanābhirāma came to my house two weeks ago, and I showed him everything, Kṛṣṇa and your photo next to it, and I every day do pūjā . Complete vegetarian, and we are doing ārati every day, first obeisances to you, my father*-mother, and Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Your father*-mother here? *Indian man: No, sir. They are dead now. They have expired. But I still offer my obeisances to them. First obeisances to you, then to Kṛṣṇa, then to my father*-mother, and then I start my pūjā . Prabhupāda: That's . . . Indian man: And I do complete ārati and everything, because I want your blessings. I wish that I have a guru like you every birth after birth. But one of the problem, Prabhupāda, personally, I have found among the Indian people is that because we are used to so many demigods, they still don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are so many arguments I get that like . . . Prabhupāda: There is no question of argument. Indian man: No no. *Prabhupāda: It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Indian man: Yes sir. *Prabhupāda: But if they do not accept Bhagavad*-gītā as the authority, then they are fools. Indian man: Yes, they are. Prabhupāda: So fools cannot be enlightened. That is the difficulty. Indian man: And this is one of the biggest problems. Prabhupāda: If they do not accept the authority, then they are fools. Indian man: Yes. After I teach *Gītā* and I try to tell them to please sing bhajan . . . *Prabhupāda: That is not their fault. Even the big, big leaders of India, even Gandhi, they do not know actually. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. The Bhagavad-gītā has been misinterpreted, misused by the leaders, by the politicians, by the so-called philosophers. Everyone has misused Bhagavad-gītā . Indian man: I'll tell you one thing, that Swami Chinmayananda . . . Prabhupāda: He's a great . . . Indian man: He's great, but I'll tell you what happened. Prabhupāda: "Great" means great fool. Indian man: Yes. In Third Chapter where Kṛṣṇa is saying: "Renounce your everything to Me." Okay? And the word matam is used, matam . Now Swami Chinmayananda is saying: "That's My opinion," that's what Kṛṣṇa is telling, and they will be freed of all the work. And you have written matam means scriptural injunctions. And I tried to show the students who come to the class that "This is the difference. Look at this, very big difference," because if Kṛṣṇa is only giving His opinion, then He's talking like a diplomat, not talking like God. But if He says: "This is the law . . ." And I explained to them that like Bible has got ten commandments . . . *Prabhupāda: And another thing, even Kṛṣṇa says, giving His opinion—that's taking it as it is—Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat ( BG 7.7). So He's the supreme authority. So supreme authority's matam is a high court judgment. There is no argument anyone. The judgment is given by the high court. Final decision. So if Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, then who can give him better opinion than Him? For argument's sake, even if He says . . . any gentleman will say like that, that . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "You do it." He is Supreme Lord, He can force you, but He does not do that. So although His matam is the Supreme, but as a gentle preacher, He says: "That is My matam ." But if you are sane, if you know that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority, then His matam is final. *Indian man: Right. And that's why I try to show the difference to people, that "Please follow Prabhupāda's Gītā . And please make sure that when you read, you read Gītā As It Is." This is why I'm trying to show the differences to people. Personally there is only one question I have, and that is, throughout all the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatams that you have translated so far, I see all the time any, like Kardama Muni or other, all other great sages, whenever they do tapasya , every time Mahā-Viṣṇu comes down. Now I know that throughout other . . . even Back to Godhead , you have considered Mahā-Viṣṇu as an expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yet Mahā-Viṣṇu is coming every time as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So what is the subtle position here? *Prabhupāda: There is no difference between . . . just like . . . it has been explained in the Brahma*-saṁhitā . Just like one candle, then you kindle another candle, then you kindle another, another, another, another. So you say: "This is first, this is second, this is third, this is fourth." But so far candlepower is concerned, they are all the same. Either you take first or the second or the third, so far the candlepower is concerned, that is all the same. Still, you have to say: "This is first, this is second, that is third, this is fourth, this is . . ." Indian man: I was trying to . . . I was trying . . . *Prabhupāda: So God and His different expansions, they are of same power. Rāmādi*-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu, kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo . . . *Indian man: . . . govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . *Prabhupāda: So He is existing with all the incarnations, rāmādi*-mūrtiṣu . Indian man: Yes, even Rāmacandra is . . . Prabhupāda: So Rāma is not less than Kṛṣṇa, but He is incarnation. This is the conclusion. *Indian man: Because I was trying to refer to Govindāṣṭakam , where it says (sings) śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā āra gokuleśa gopāla govardhana*-nātha viṣṇu, jīveti amṛtamedhadevo govindaṁ dāmodaram ada vetti . He's saying, śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā āra gokuleśa gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu . That is what I was trying to see that is really . . . I know that Kṛṣṇa's expansion is Mahā-Viṣṇu, but still, why do they say govardhana-nātha viṣṇu ? That's what I was trying to understand. Please don't misunderstand me. I am trying to understand from you. *Prabhupāda: No, no, Govardhana . . . everyone is viṣṇu*-tattva. Viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva , like that. So all of them on the Viṣṇu category. That's all. Viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti. Viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti (BS 5.46). These things are there. So Godhead is viṣṇu-tattva . So sometimes Viṣṇu, sometimes Nārāyaṇa, sometimes Govinda, sometimes Kṛṣṇa, like that. *Indian man: That's very nice, because one can understand very well. Because I always took Mahā*-Viṣṇu as the expansion of Kṛṣṇa, but still, when I went to Govindāṣṭakam and then also like Brahma-saṁhitā says, yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā . . . (BS 5.48). *Prabhupāda: . . . loma*-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ . *Indian man: . . . jagad*-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya (Prabhupāda quotes same verse simultaneously) kalā-viśeṣo govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . So he says Mahā-Viṣṇu is even one expansion of Kṛṣṇa, yet in Govindāṣṭakam they say, govardhana . . . gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu, śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā gokuleśa, gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu . *Prabhupāda: They're all viṣṇu*-tattva. Viṣṇu-sahasra-nāma-stotra . *Indian man: Because many people in . . . at least, among the Indians I get very big argument about it, that it is Mahā*-Viṣṇu who is Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Kṛṣṇa is only one avatāra of His. And I try to . . . *Prabhupāda: That argument is discussed in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Hari-śauri: First volume? Prabhupāda: Yes, first volume you see. See the contents. You can't find it? When he is discussing, somebody, says Viṣṇu is the origin? So children, how many? Indian man: No children. Prabhupāda: No children. Indian man: No children Prabhupāda: That is good than another. (laughs) No responsibility. Indian man: I have decided that in about five, ten years, I'll work that much only. Afterwards I'm going to go to work for you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Indian man: Because I don't find any more pleasures, you know, in anything. As I go on chanting and chanting and chanting, sometime, Prabhupāda . . . oh, my first dream that came when I joined your movement . . . first dream that I came . . . and I told my wife about it in the morning. I said, first I saw a moon, and then I saw another large planet coming up, and then on the top of it I saw the lotus feet of the Lord. And when I saw the lotus feet of the Lord, I saw you coming on a swan and doing His pūjā . And I kept on shouting to my wife that, "Please see, Prabhupāda is here. Please see. He is doing pūjā of lotus feet of the Lord." And that was my first dream that came. Sometimes after chanting all the time I feel as if He is walking next to me. I can feel as if His bluish body is right next to me, and all the time I have a feeling that somebody is next to me, you know. I don't know whether I'm going crazy or I'm . . . *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is already there. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). (Tamāla Kṛṣṇa enters) So? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I asked, I took a poll, census poll of about six or seven GBC men, including Kīrtanānanda, Rāmeśvara, Bali*-mardana, so many men who know New York, and they all thought that if you join the parade at Twenty-third Street . . . *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-third. At what time? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah, it'll be . . . it should be at about 3:15, like that. Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then it will be nice. Because the whole parade is about fifty*-four blocks, and you'll be riding for about nineteen blocks. It means your ride will take about forty-five minutes. Prabhupāda: So what time I'll have to start? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From here? Prabhupāda: Somebody will come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think I will probably come. Kīrtanānanda will also . . . Prabhupāda: At what time? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think, say, it's going to be either 2:45 or 3:00. Tomorrow morning I'll let you know. Prabhupāda: So at 3:00 I shall be ready. You can come and take me. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I think at 3:00 . . . but then by the time we get in the car . . . I think it will work, 3:00 o'clock. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Three o'clock, I'll be ready. You come and take. In the meantime, I shall finish my . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that will leave a little time for resting. The whole program should be over by about . . . Prabhupāda: So tomorrow I shall take lunch at 1:00. Hari-śauri: One o'clock. Prabhupāda: That's all. Then, by 3:00 o'clock, I shall be ready. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Thik hai. (Okay then.) Kṛṣṇa is preparing you to join this movement wholeheartedly. It is very nice. (to devotee) Now you have got it? *Jayādvaita: Yes. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja quotes, ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28): "All these incarnations of Godhead are either plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras , but Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself." Then he says: "The Bhāgavatam describes the symptoms and deeds of the incarnations in general and counts Śrī Kṛṣṇa among them. This made Sūta Gosvāmī greatly apprehensive. Therefore he distinguished each incarnation by its specific symptom. All the incarnations of Godhead are plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras , but the primeval Lord is Śrī Kṛṣṇa. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the fountainhead of all incarnations. An opponent may say: 'This is your interpretation, but actually the Supreme Lord is Nārāyaṇa, who is in the transcendental realm. He, Nārāyaṇa, incarnates as Lord Kṛṣṇa. This is the meaning of the verse as I see it. There is no need for further consideration.' To such a misguided interpreter we may reply, 'Why should you suggest such fallacious logic? An interpretation is never accepted as evidence if it opposes the principle of scripture. One should not state a predicate before its subject, for it cannot thus stand without proper support.' If I do not state a subject, I do not state a predicate. First I speak the former and then the latter. The predicate of a sentence is what is unknown to the reader, whereas the subject is what is known to him. For example, we may say: 'This vipra is a greatly learned man.' In this sentence, the vipra is the subject, and the predicate is his erudition. The man's being a vipra is known, but his erudition is unknown. Therefore the person is identified first and his erudition later. In the same way, all these incarnations were known, but whose incarnations they are was unknown. First the word ete , 'these,' establishes the subject, the incarnations. Then 'plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras' follows as the predicate. In the same way, when Kṛṣṇa was first counted among the incarnations, specific knowledge about Him was still unknown. Therefore the word Kṛṣṇa appears as the subject, followed by the predicate, describing Him as the original Personality of Godhead. This establishes that Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead. The original Personality of Godhead is therefore necessarily Kṛṣṇa. Had Kṛṣṇa been the plenary portion and Nārāyaṇa the primeval Lord, the statement of Sūta Gosvāmī would have been reversed. Thus he would have said: 'Nārāyaṇa, the source of all incarnations, is the original Personality of Godhead. He has appeared as Śrī Kṛṣṇa.' " *Prabhupāda: So everything is given with logic and argument. Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). First of all He's grouped among the incarnations, but Kṛṣṇa is not incarnation. He's bhagavān svayam . Indian man: He comes original. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you argue against the authority of *Bhāgavatam* , then that argument has no value. *Indian man: That's where the problem in India occuring. Everyone is saying God is Mahā*-Viṣṇu, and Kṛṣṇa and Rāma are only avatāras , and that's where the big argument came in. In fact, I talked to so many . . . *Prabhupāda: Otherwise why Sūta Gosvāmī, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28)? And Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). So how one can say like that? That means less intelligent. If Kṛṣṇa . . . if one accepts the authority of Bhagavad*-gītā , Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Then how they falsely say? Aham ādir hi devānām . Find out this verse. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Sarvaśaḥ . Kṛṣṇa jhoot bol rahe hain kya? (Is Kṛṣṇa telling lies?) Indian man: No. Never. He has no reason to cheat us. He has no reason to lie. Hari-śauri: Shall I read the . . .? Prabhupāda: Um hmm. Hari-śauri: "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for, in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." Purport? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: "As stated in Brahma*-saṁhitā , Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. No one is greater than Him; *He is the cause of all causes. Here it is also stated by the Lord personally that He is the cause of all the demigods and the sages. Even the demigods and great sages cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. They can neither understand His name nor His personality, so what is the position of the so*-called scholars of this tiny planet? No one can understand why the Supreme God comes to earth as an ordinary human being and executes such commonplace and yet wonderful activities. One should know, then, that scholarship is not the qualification necessary to understand Kṛṣṇa. Even the demigods and the great sages have tried to understand Kṛṣṇa by their mental speculation, and they have failed to do so. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is stated clearly that even the great demigods are not able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They can speculate to the limits of their imperfect senses and can reach the opposite conclusion of impersonalism, of something not manifested by the three qualities of material nature. Or they can imagine something by mental speculation. But it is not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa by such foolish speculation." *"Here the Lord indirectly says that if anyone wants to know the Absolute Truth, 'Here I am, present as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I am the Supreme.' One should know this. Although one cannot understand the inconceivable Lord who is personally present, He nonetheless exists. We can actually understand Kṛṣṇa, who is eternal, full of bliss and knowledge, simply by studying His words in Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . The impersonal Brahman can be conceived by persons who are already in the inferior energy of the Lord, but the Personality of Godhead cannot be conceived unless one is in the transcendental position. Because most men cannot understand Kṛṣṇa in His actual situation, out of His causeless mercy He descends to show favor to such speculators. Yet despite the Supreme Lord's uncommon activities, these speculators, due to contamination in the material energy, still think that the impersonal Brahman is the Supreme. Only the devotees, who are fully surrendered unto the Supreme Lord, can understand, by the grace of the Lord, that He is Kṛṣṇa. The devotees of the Lord do not bother about the impersonal Brahman conception of God. Their faith and devotion bring them to surrender immediately unto the Supreme Lord, and out of the causeless mercy of Kṛṣṇa, they can understand Kṛṣṇa. No one else can understand Him. So even great sages agree, 'What is ātmā ? What is the Supreme? It is He whom we have to worship.' " Indian man: In my class I run into lot of arguments, especially from our Indian people, and this is one of the biggest arguments that people pose. They say: "Why are you calling yourselves Vaiṣṇavas and not Kṛṣṇayas?" Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: If I call Kṛṣṇa . . . I accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme Personality of Godhead, then the question comes to me, "Why are you calling yourself Vaiṣṇavas? Why not Kṛṣṇayas?" *Prabhupāda: That already is explained, that Kṛṣṇa or Rāma, Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa, They are all viṣṇu*-tattva . Therefore Viṣṇu is the common word for everyone. Just like candle. Everyone is candle, but still, this is first candle, this is second candle, this is third candle, like that. So Godhead means all viṣṇu-tattva . They are not jīva-tattva . So therefore those who are devotee of God, they are called Vaiṣṇava. Hari-śauri: This specific word Vaiṣṇava, that refers to Viṣṇu? Worshipers of Viṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇu asyra devataḥ iti vaiṣṇavaḥ . Indian man: Throughout *Vedas* also, Viṣṇu is the yajñeśvara . Prabhupāda: The supreme, yes. Indian man: Yajño vai viṣṇuḥ . *Prabhupāda: Viṣṇur ārādhyate. Viṣṇur ārādhyate, nānyat tat*-toṣa-kāraṇam. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). Viṣṇor ārādhanam. Ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param . These are the śāstric . . . that viṣṇor ārādhana . Kṛṣṇa-ārādhana is also viṣṇu-ārādhana .' *Indian man: In fact, even Brahma*-saṁhitā , Brahmājī says, *So "Viṣṇu is creating all the planetary systems. He's in His yoga*-nidrā . He is the original Govinda, and I worship Him." So that is why both names are used so synonymously. And that is why people are questioning me, and I have difficulty to answer them. Although I accept Kṛṣṇa as original Personality of Godhead, but how to explain to them? Prabhupāda: No, these are the references. *Jayādvaita: In here also. Should I read the verse? "All other incarnations are potentially situated in the original body of the primeval Lord. Thus, according to one's opinion, one may address Him as any one of the incarnations." Purport: "It is not contradictory for a devotee to call the Supreme Lord by any one of the various names of His plenary expansions, because the original Personality of Godhead includes all such categories. Since the plenary expansions exist within the original person, one may call Him by any of these names. In Śrī Caitanya*-bhāgavata Lord Caitanya says: 'I was lying asleep in the ocean of milk, but I was wakened by the call of Nāḍā, Śrī Advaita Prabhu.' Here the Lord refers to His form as Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu." *Translation: "Some say that Śrī Kṛṣṇa is directly Nara*-Nārāyaṇa, others say that He is directly Vāmana. Some say that Kṛṣṇa is the incarnation of Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. None of these statements is impossible. Each of them is as correct as the others. Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta states," Purport: 'According to the intimate relationships between Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the primeval Lord, and His devotees, the *Purāṇas* describe Him by various names. Sometimes He is called Nārāyaṇa, sometimes Upendra (Vāmana), the younger brother of Indra, King of heaven; and sometimes Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Sometimes He is called . . .' " *Prabhupāda: They are all viṣṇu*-tattva . *Indian man: In fact, I remember very vividly that in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you wrote that it was Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu who came down to bless Dhruva Mahārāja when the planetary system started trembling due to his tapasya . Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. This is why people are questioning me continuously that, "How can you call Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead and not Viṣṇu?" And I say: "All are viṣṇu-tattva ." But it is very difficult to explain to them the actual position of Kṛṣṇa, because only through chanting . . . *Prabhupāda: That is decided by Bhāgavatam , ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). That tu , the name Kṛṣṇa, in the incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa is also included, but this Kṛṣṇa is the origin. Indian man: Prabhupāda: So we have to take the direction. So that is also explained. Even if you say: "Kṛṣṇa is Vāmana," there is nothing wrong. If you believe that Kṛṣṇa is incarnation of Viṣṇu, there is nothing wrong. Indian man: I don't believe that. Prabhupāda: No, no, others. Others . . . Indian man: I believe Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Prabhupāda: Others. We simply accept, "Yes, it is all right." That's all. So that's a fact, because when Kṛṣṇa comes, He comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Indian man: I ask them then that, "Explain the three Viṣṇus—Mahā Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu and Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Even Viṣṇu Himself has expanded, what to talk of Kṛṣṇa." And then I ask them that "Kṛṣṇa came from which Viṣṇu? You tell me. If you can tell me that, then I will accept that Kṛṣṇa came from Viṣṇu. But if not, you have to accept my statement that Kṛṣṇa is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead. And you will not know Him unless you chant. Unless you chant." *Prabhupāda: Sometimes Mahā*-Viṣṇu wanted to see Kṛṣṇa. That is mentioned in the Bhāgavata , Indian man: Yes Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: And He took Arjuna with Him. *Indian man: That's right. That's right. My father*-mother did their entire lifetime pūjā of Śrīnāthajī, Śrīnāthajī. Prabhupāda: Śrīnāthajī is Gopāla. Indian man: Śrīnāthajī, we consider Him as Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, He is Kṛṣṇa. He's our Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. It is decided by the court. Śrīnāthajī, there are . . . Mādhavendra Purī's worshipable Gopāla . . . he discovered Gopāla in Govardhana. That Gopāla was delivered to . . . who is the ācārya ? Vallabhācārya. And it is decided by the court that Śrīnāthajī originally belongs to Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. By the court. This Mādhavendra Purī is the spiritual master of Īśvara Purī. And Īśvara Purī is the spiritual master of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So from Mādhavendra Purī is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. So his Deity is Gopāla. That Gopāla is Śrīnāthajī. *Indian man: When I was a young boy, eight years old, I went to Śrīnāthajī with my father*-mother, and there I had to take the brahma-samāna, brahma-smārana , which is the oath, taking of the oath in front of the Mahārāja and the priest of the Śrīnāthajī temple. And is that equal unto initiation, or is that just a ceremony by itself? Prabhupāda: No, initiation is another ceremony. Indian man: What are the qualifications required for a person in working life like me, household like me, like myself, to get initiated? Prabhupāda: No, you can be initiated. There is no . . . because you are following the rules and regulations. Indian man: Yes. Yes I am following. Prabhupāda: That's it. We initiate a person who follows the rules and regulations. Indian man: I am following all your rules and regulations. Prabhupāda: Then you can be initiated. Indian man: Yes. I think we have taken enough of your time, Prabhupāda. I would love to stay with you, and I would like to invite you to . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you stay here in our temple? Indian man: Probably I might. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got ladies' department and gentleman's department. You can stay. Indian man and wife: I would like to invite you to Poughkeepsie and stay with us if it is possible. Prabhupāda: Yes. How long it is? Indian man: Hundred miles north from here. Prabhupāda: So by car? Indian man: Yes, by car. Prabhupāda: It will take about four, five hours. Indian man: No, two and a half hours. Two and a half hours. Prabhupāda: Traveling is little difficult for me. So there are many Indians? *Indian man: There are about hundred and fifty Indian people. Thirty percent of them are Ārya*-samājīsts. They don't believe in anyone except doing havanas . Prabhupāda: Second edition of Muhammadans. Indian man: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Ārya*-samājī means another edition of the Muhammadans. Indian man: Some are Śiva followers, Śaivaites, of South India. *Prabhupāda: The Ārya*-samājīs, they do not believe in God, so how they are Śiva followers? Hodgepodge. No sāmajīs , but hodgepodge. Indian man: Yes, it is. They don't know what is Personality of Godhead. Prabhupāda: Opportunity followers. Indian man: Hodgepodge, that's right. Prabhupāda: Opportunists. Useless. They have no value. *Indian man: Thirty percent of the Indian families, they are Ārya*-samājīsts, and twenty percent are South Indian Śaivaites. I get a lot of argument that, "Rāmacandrajī did the pūjā of Śivajī at Rāmeśvaram, so Śiva is greater than Rāma." I said: "Consider this, that Rāma was so humble to do the pūjā of Śivajī, but in Rāmastotrāṇi it says, rāma rāmeti rāmeti rāmerāma manorāne, śāstranāma tat tulyam śrī-rāma-nāma rāmarāme . That is what Śivajī is telling Pārvatī. Śivajī is telling Pārvatī in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19)." I say: "Why does Śivajī say that? Why is Śivajī sitting in samādhi ? Why not Kṛṣṇa sitting in samādhi ? Why not Rāma sitting in samādhi ? Why not Mahā-Viṣṇu sitting in samādhi ? Because Śivajī's position is to serve Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa as Rāma is so humble that He came and even did His devotee's pūjā ." Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa is afraid of mother Yaśodā's rope. But that does not mean He is no longer the Supreme Lord. Indian man: Exactly, exactly, exactly. Prabhupāda: He's afraid of "Mother, don't bind Me." So everyone is afraid of Kṛṣṇa, and He is afraid of His mother's rope. Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: So does it mean Kṛṣṇa has become no more the Supreme? Indian man: In fact, you might have heard of Satya Sai Baba in India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Now there are some people in our community there at Poughkeepsie, they are all followers of Satya Sai Baba, and they've been telling me that "Anyone you pray, Kṛṣṇa, Rāma, Viṣṇu, it comes to Satya Sai Baba." I said: "Don't tell me that nonsense," I said. (laughter) "Satya Sai Baba is not Kṛṣṇa, and don't tell me that." In fact for Guru Pūrṇimā they invited me to Satya Sai Baba's bhajanas . I said: "No, I have my guru . I'm very happy. Don't disturb me. I have Kṛṣṇa, I have my guru , and I have my path. I don't have to go to anybody's guru , and I don't have to take anyone's teachings." I say: "My *Gītā* is here, written by Prabhupāda. I follow it, and that's it. I don't have to have extraordinary brains to follow everyone's *Gītā* or everything else. Here is my path." Prabhupāda: In South America there was a great criticism? Hari-śauri: South Africa. Prabhupāda: South Africa. Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Of Satya Sai. Hari-śauri: One man, he challenged that he could prove that Sai Baba is a fake. So he's written so many letters to Sai Baba to challenge him, but he's never received a reply. So that paper gave this article criticizing Sai Baba like that, and other gurus , and then in the same paper there was a very nice article concerning our Jagannātha Cart Festival. So practically they were appreciating that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is bona fide and these other people are nonsense. Indian man: Right. In fact, several people, even in our community in Poughkeepsie, received letters from Satya Sai Baba's followers that, "Here is a letter. Make ten copies and send the ten copies to ten different people. If you don't, Satya Sai Baba's thunderbolt will come and strike your family, and they'll be destroyed." Now no guru ever puts a thunderbolt on his devotee, and I said: "If that is a guru , I'll stay ten thousand miles away from him, because my guru is very kind and he'll bless me." I said: "No guru should ever put a thunderbolt on his devotee." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (aside) You can turn towards this. *Indian man: At Monticello in Catskill . . . I don't know if you know it. Monticello in Catskill Mountains here? Just about fifty*-sixty miles north, there is Muktananda. Hari-śauri: Muktananda. Indian man: Muktananda. And he has got his retreat, and some of our people go there. And I heard from them that he is teaching . . . he is quoting *Gītā* . But if you go to his room, oṁ namaḥ śivāya . I said: "This is contradiction." I said: "If he is a Śiva follower, he should teach Śiva Purāṇa and not *Gītā* ." I said this is . . . Prabhupāda: But they are actually impersonalists. They neither follow Śiva nor Kṛṣṇa. They are impersonalists. Indian man: Hypocrites. Prabhupāda: Their idea is the Absolute Truth is imperson. You can worship Him either as Śiva or as Kṛṣṇa, as you like. That is their philosophy. Yes. Indian man: Yes. But this is the height of hypocrisy, to teach *Gītā* and to chant oṁ namaḥ śivāya . *Prabhupāda: No, because they say: "Either way, you become impersonal at the end. You brahma*-liṅ . You become one with Brahma. But before you become brahma-liṅ , you can imagine some form, either Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu or Śiva or Durgā, the same thing." That is their . . . Indian man: In fact some of the arguments that I received were . . . "If you go to heaven, let's say, Vaikuṇṭha, then you become . . . you join the impersonal Brahman. Then you have nothing else to do." He says: "In material world we have family. We have something to do." I said: "If you believe in impersonalism, you have nothing to do. If you believe in personalism, you will serve the Lord there." Prabhupāda: Impersonal means if you have nothing to do, then you'll become mad. Indian man: Exactly. Prabhupāda: And again you come back to this material world. Indian man: Exactly. Now, Prabhupāda, I have taken too much of your time. I want to thank you very much. I humbly offer my obeisances. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Indian man: I wish that I can continue your work. Prabhupāda: Please do. You'll be happy. Kṛṣṇa will make you happy. Indian man: And huh . . . Prabhupāda: Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kas . . . (BG 18.69). (break) (end) Conversation -- July 18, 1976, New York *Prabhupāda: . . . 7*-UP with ice. *Hari-śauri: 7*-UP? We'll have to send someone out for it. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rādhā*-vallabha should go. Prabhupāda: So, so far I was there, it was successful. What was the next? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we were selling prasādam . I think we must have made somewhere between five and ten thousand dollars so far from prasādam sales. That's in addition to the free feast. We served a free feast to five thousand people when I left. Prabhupāda: Oh, you did not stay there? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, still . . . it's so big. I estimated that through three to four hours there were thirty to forty thousand people that went in and out of that park. Prabhupāda: Still they are eating? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're still eating. Every piece of burfī we sold cost one dollar. Prabhupāda: What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just a piece of burfī . . . Prabhupāda: Burfī ? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they were charging one dollar for one square. Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they were paying. Watermelon, for one slice, half a dollar. Prabhupāda: Fifty cents. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty cents. The whole watermelon only cost one dollar. We got about thirty slices out of it. And books . . . Prabhupāda: People, they are simple here. They are not, about money matters, so much anxiety. They have got enough money that they don't care. They want, it is good taste, that's all. And why they did not give prasādam to that boy who was crazy . . . (indistinct) . . .? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He got. I'm sure he must have gotten. Everybody was given free feast. Feast was very good. I tasted it. It was nicely prepared. Prabhupāda: How many preparations were there? *Bali*-mardana: Very hard to estimate. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many preparations in the feast? There was halavā, sabjī , very good sabjī by Ṛṣi Kumāra, rice, sweet, lemonade, popper—six preps. And purī , seven preps. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Very good preps, sumptuous. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes. Besides that, we had booths with watermelon, lassī and burfī . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lassī was selling very big. We could not supply it fast enough. *Bali*-mardana: We could not . . . all the time, those booths, there was a line. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because this was our first year, we were not expecting such a big turnout, so we did not have sufficient stands to meet everybody's needs. Prabhupāda: And the police officer has approved. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the policemen sat down at the end of the park later on. Prabhupāda: You gave them prasādam ? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Why? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm not sure. I didn't deal with them. They were dealt with by Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa. We'll bring them some present tomorrow. But they made the statement that, "If every parade was so beautiful and so nicely orderly, we would be very happy." Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They said it was very orderly. Prabhupāda: And that cannot be expected from any other group, only in this group. Such a huge crowd, and there was not a single instance of violence. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Except that one time. One boy was punched out. *Hari-śauri: (referring to 7*-UP) I sent someone out. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The procession was very well attended. Prabhupāda: Television. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes. ABC, CBS and Channel Five. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All of the GBC men said it was the biggest single festival ever held in ISKCON's history. They all admitted that there was no festival ever held anywhere, even in India, no single festival in India. There was not any one day at any paṇḍāl where there was that many people who took prasādam and who attended such a long procession for two hours. Prabhupāda: I think in the beginning . . . (indistinct) . . . you were there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was there. Yeah, that was pretty big, in 1969. That was gigantic. Prabhupāda: That was also very big. And there was also a crazy man. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's right. We didn't give any invitation cards to our temple here, but we were making announcements. But I think people will come, anyway. They'll find out where our Hare Kṛṣṇa center is. *Bali*-mardana: They were distributing books, magazines. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Books and magazines were given, but we didn't give any free cards. Usually we give free cards, but there was so much . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? They'll come and take. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll come here, anyway. We didn't give any address card. Do you think people will come anyway? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even without getting a card. Prabhupāda: No, this is better, to give a card. Many Indians were standing when I came. *Bali*-mardana: Did you see the Indians? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think at least three thousand Indians attended, minimum. A huge crowd of Indians. But the big thing was not the Indians, it was the American people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a good location for the festival, very important place, Washington Square Park. It's the center. Prabhupāda: Best thing would have been to keep the deities for a week there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That would not have been permitted. They only permitted us legally two hours for everything. That's why we were rushing everything. We only had two hours legally for the whole program. Prabhupāda: Yes, then there is no need. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I heard people say: "We've never seen such a festival, never seen such a parade." I heard these comments. One man said . . . someone said: "What's going on?" and he said: "Oh, they have so many things going on here." They were very appreciative. And actually we could not put our full energy into it this year because we were so busy preparing the building simultaneously. Prabhupāda: And above all, the atmosphere, the weather, was very nice. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes, Kṛṣṇa has blessed us. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) The breeze was there. We did not feel any . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No discomfort. Prabhupāda: . . . fatigue. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And there was nearly four hundred to five hundred devotees there. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will stay in the temple? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they've been staying here. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no difficulty to accommodate them. Prabhupāda: Yes, Nārāyaṇa told me also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know, Prabhupāda, I really feel like I should concentrate a lot of my preaching here in New York. Prabhupāda: Do that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What do you think? You told me . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Preaching is required, here or there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You once said: "A good businessman, if he knows how to do it, he can make more money sitting in one place . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Money is not our aim. Our aim is how people will understand Kṛṣṇa. *Bali*-mardana: He is just using that as an analogy for preaching. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That if you have a good place, many people can be attracted, as many as moving around to many places. Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja was in favor of preaching in the city because you can get many men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But do you think I should travel a lot, or what is the best thing? Prabhupāda: Both things should be done. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Both. So if you . . . we will try to, er . . . we were hoping that you could give us another chance by coming back next year. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I'll come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you do say that to a lot of different temples. But we will try to make this doubly big. Prabhupāda: Normal, so long I live, I must come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we get on Fifth Avenue, you'll come again? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we will double the amount of people, promise. *Bali*-mardana: And double the prasādam . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We will double everything if you are here, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. I can stay here also. I like especially New York, because I started the movement here. And because there are so many branches, if I go they'll become enlivened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, right, just like we are enlivened. Prabhupāda: Everyone wants. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone wants you to come. Prabhupāda: That is natural. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Question of love. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: New York was your second home after India. Prabhupāda: Yes, I say fatherland. India, motherland; this is fatherland. *Bali*-mardana: It is so nice that now in New York they are receiving you so nicely, this parade. Everyone is turning out to greet you. You are like the local boy who made good. So now they are receiving you very grandly. Prabhupāda: Yes, continue this program. People will be appreciative. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking that we could make a point to have many big festivals here each year, not just this one, but many. Prabhupāda: Yes, at least three, four you can do. On Janmāṣṭamī, one; Gaura Pūrṇimā; *for Śrī Rāma*-navamī; *and one, Ratha*-yātrā. *Bali*-mardana: We can do New York for the spring, summer and fall. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: Because the weather is nice. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That coincides. Rāma*-navamī is spring, Ratha-yātrā is summer, and Janmāṣṭamī is fall. Hari-śauri: Gaura Pūrṇimā would be a bit difficult, though. Everybody is in India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's not possible. *Bali*-mardana: We could do that inside. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But those three . . . *Prabhupāda: Janmāṣṭamī, take Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa procession. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On carts? Prabhupāda: No, on siṁhāsana , carried by hand. *Bali*-mardana: Palanquin. Prabhupāda: Palanquin, yes; no, the siṁhāsana as it is. Just like this is siṁhāsana , two big poles down, and tie it with . . . cut it with legs and carry, four men or eight men change. Change the soldiers. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not on carts, not on big chariot. *Prabhupāda: No. Chariot, only Ratha*-yātrā. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll make a big advertisement. We'll call it "Fall Festival." This festival, we called it "Summer Festival." See, people respond to that. If you say Ratha*-yātrā, they can't even pronounce the word. So we call it "Summer Festival," and they came. Hari-śauri: "Summer Festival" sounds very attractive. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone was saying: "Oh, that means for me, Summer Festival." Hari-śauri: "Ecstasy Outdoors." Prabhupāda: And Jayānanda should be congratulated. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. You should give one letter, written. I . . . *Bali*-mardana: The carts looked magnificent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two people worked the hardest, Prabhupāda . . . Jayānanda and all of his assistants, and Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa. He did all of the publicity and advertising. Prabhupāda: They should be congratulated. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These two men, they worked the hardest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They worked for two months in a row, solid. The carts were very good, I think. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very nice, very strong. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Big. Strong. Because you gave him that warning. When he heard that, oh, he became very . . . "I must do it right." We told him, "Now you will have to be replaced. Prabhupāda has said that 'Jayānanda's wheels will never hold up.' So we have to find a replacement for you." (Prabhupāda chuckles) So he took no chances. Prabhupāda: In San Francisco it also happened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seems to me that he must be a great devotee of Lord Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: Same thing happened in London also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? The legs, wheels. Hari-śauri: That's why they gave difficulty, the authorities, because the wheels broke? Prabhupāda: No, that is wrong idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that happened, though. I remember hearing about it. This Jayānanda, it seems, must be a very faithful devotee of Lord Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: Now, where these things will be kept? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our garage. No problem. That's one of the advantages of our garage. It's one block away and it has ten thousand square foot area, so we can store all the carts easily. Hari-śauri: Good storage is very important. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And one block away in Manhattan is very unusual. Prabhupāda: Be careful that termite may not attack. *Bali*-mardana: Termites. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. I'll make a note. *Bali*-mardana: There are not many termites in New York. We are fortunate. In Hawaii there are many termites. But here you don't have to usually protect wood against termites. Here the wintertime kills them, it gets so cold. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very cold. Hari-śauri: That kills them. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There were devotees from Miami, Gainesville, Atlanta, Washington, Baltimore, Boston, Detroit, Toronto, Montreal, Los Angeles, Vancouver . . . Hari-śauri: South America Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: South America—all over South America, they came from. Prabhupāda: Ah. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A gigantic turnout of devotees. Very international group. *Bali*-mardana: This could be like Lord Caitanya used to invite all His devotees to come and see Him at Ratha-yātrā . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: Similarly, if you come here, we can invite . . . Prabhupāda: I'll come. *Bali*-mardana: . . . from all the temples. Prabhupāda: I'll come. *Bali*-mardana: Then you do not have to travel so much. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we will make all arrangements. This year is nothing. Next year we will make ten times more arrangements if you come, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: From anywhere, I will come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We will make all arrangements for you. Prabhupāda: Yes. That you do. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This was only a trial. *Bali*-mardana: We have to perfect it now. We have learned that many . . . certain things did not go as perfectly as they could have, so now we are going to repair and make it perfect. Prabhupāda: Now, by this, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is advertised. Apart from all over the world, at least in New York it is that, "There is some movement." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prominent movement. Fifth Avenue. We were in charge of Fifth Avenue for one day. Practically we were controlling the Fifth Avenue today. Hari-śauri: Lord Jagannātha was. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: If that side we get some small house, so that after going, eight days Jagannātha can remain there and festival going on, and then in the next week return . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How small a house? Prabhupāda: Just to keep Jagannātha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, there's your old storefront. Prabhupāda: What? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about your old storefront, 26 Second Avenue? Prabhupāda: That is too small. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Too small. I'll immediately get a house. Prabhupāda: And then you can utilize it for other purposes during the whole year. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we can keep a downtown center. *Bali*-mardana: West Village. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a first*-class place for a center, the West Village. We can make many devotees there. We'll keep a small preaching center, maybe a restaurant, prasādam distribution. *Bali*-mardana: We'll call it the Guṇḍicā center. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Guṇḍicā. We will call it Guṇḍicā. Prabhupāda: Yes, Guṇḍicā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, that's a second restaurant. I think we should have a restaurant there, because a restaurant brings in a lot of people. No Deities. We won't install any Deities, just a preaching center, book distribution . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, book distribution, restaurant, pictures . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, lectures three times a week. Prabhupāda: Records, pictures, yes, like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew! I wish that you could stay here all the time, Prabhupāda, because you could give us so many ideas, and we would simply act on them. If somehow we could convince you to stay here . . . I wish there was a way. There is no way to keep you here. Prabhupāda: No, I have no objection, but the other people . . . (laughter) *Bali*-mardana: Just like the Marwaris say: "Oh, I have no objection, but my brother, he may have objection." Prabhupāda: They . . . nobody has objection. Simply I am thinking that if I stay in one place and do not see the others . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But this is a very central location. Prabhupāda: That I shall consider. *Bali*-mardana: They may come here. We will make . . . we have guest rooms. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can make an airline office by which they'll get a reduced rate, and they can travel here—travel agency—and they can come here very inexpensively to visit you, and we can give full accommodation. If somehow we can keep you here, we will do anything required. *Bali*-mardana: At least for a few months. That is all. Prabhupāda: Which month? *Bali*-mardana: During the summertime. Prabhupāda: July? *Bali*-mardana: July, August. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because now it is the rainy season in India. *Bali*-mardana: Because we do not want to inconvenience you as far as the weather goes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I know now, June, even July, August, September now in India is not so good. October is very good in India. *Bali*-mardana: September is very pleasant in New York. I think you remember. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These months are very nice. Somehow, if there was some way . . . I mean, we would preach so hard. At least sixteen hours a day we could work to serve you. I know I would not want to rest even. There must be some way that we can convince you to stay here. *Bali*-mardana: Because actually when you come here, you are preaching to millions. These reporters that have come, through them you have been preaching to millions. Prabhupāda: What about the reporters? They have published something? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it'll come. *Bali*-mardana: The transcripts have been sent to them, so within the next week they should be coming. *Hari-śauri: I think one or two were waiting until after Ratha*-yātrā, to give a report on the festival as well. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There were a lot of reporters, and they said that next year . . . they told us next year they're going to have full television cameras. We're going to have to erect a news, er . . . what is that called? Press, not a table, but a platform where they're going to put their cameras, and their reporters will sit above the whole crowd. They want to cover it, full. They were very amazed to see such a gigantic festival in New York itself. They never imagined such a thing in New York. Prabhupāda: The Christian cannot organize. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You saw them. The only thing they were carrying was one sign like this. The sign said: "Turn or Burn." It means turn to Jesus or burn. Turn or burn, burn in hell. That's their conception of God. Either God or burn in hell. We could give you a good rest here, also, Prabhupāda, because it's very easy to not . . . if the devotees could see you on Sunday, just like in the old days in Los Angeles . . . I mean everything could be very nicely done, and you could still visit the European centers when you finally return to India. I mean they are not making such a big thing that you couldn't come later on. Oh, boy. Prabhupāda: (laughing) A good canvasser. *Bali*-mardana: They say that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa is very convincing. When he wants to persuade someone, the person must do it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, just it would give . . . there are so many good . . . of course, everywhere there are good devotees, but here there are so many strong preachers that if you stay here on the basis that they had to increase their preaching, we would double and triple our preaching. There's no question. We would throw out all considerations of inconvenience to ourselves and simply preach day and night. *Bali*-mardana: Especially New York, the people are ready for it. Like today, they have taken part very nicely. Even the policemen. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, they're so favorable. Rāmeśvara was commenting. He said he never saw . . . the climate of the people of New York is unique in America. They are very favorable. *Prabhupāda: So where is that man? Where he has gone? 7*-UP can be had anywhere. Hari-śauri: Well, it's Sunday evening. It's a bit difficult. He has to drive around in a car till he finds somewhere. *Bali*-mardana: 7-UP? You want 7-UP? I can get it. Hari-śauri: I sent Śravaṇānanda out to get it. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At the Bloopie's they can get it. Rādhā*-vallabha got it. *Bali*-mardana: Not a can, though, just in a cup. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But how do they get it into the cup? Buy the whole bottle. Prabhupāda: Bottle or . . . bottle or can. *Bali*-mardana: This store has it . . . they have the machine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about Ninth Avenue? There's all those shops. *(whispering in background about 7*-UP) *Bali*-mardana: He already went to get it? Prabhupāda: If the government is going against our movement, then I'll have to stay. There is no alternative. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In India. Prabhupāda: Because in that case I'll be hampered in India. *Bali*-mardana: He'll be what? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hampered. *Bali*-mardana: Yes, now the government has a policy that anyone they do not like, they put him in jail. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In India. *Bali*-mardana: In India. Even that elderly gentleman, Narayan . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prakash Narayan. *Bali*-mardana: . . . put him in jail. He's so old. Prabhupāda: The result is that the Congress Party and Indira Gandhi will never be elected anymore. That is sure. Therefore he's postponing election. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's sure. Prabhupāda: Now they have lost all their credit. They will never be elected. Congress Party and Indira Gandhi finished. (break) *Bali*-mardana: They have lost all respectability. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that your preaching here in New York . . . the thing is the preaching . . . Prabhupāda: More important. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's more important. Prabhupāda: I know that. *Bali*-mardana: In India they pay more attention to the building than to the person. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Bali*-mardana: Our building can go on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know, Prabhupāda, we have never . . . I mean, you started this movement here in New York, but this is the first time that we have a proper facility. Prabhupāda: Yes, in the last ten years there was no facility. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda. That's why if you concentrated here, just by your presence, even if you only spoke to a few important gentlemen . . . we have so many senior men here. We could do wonderful things. Within two or three months we could expand our movement so broadly here in New York, I think the whole country would take note. I really feel that there is a great potential. Prabhupāda: That is right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why I'm not very eager to . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, this is fact. Let me see what Kṛṣṇa desires. The roof is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: For open air. Hari-śauri: It's very good for massage. Prabhupāda: And the view of the river is very healthy. If you can see the river from your house, it is to be understood that quarter is very nice. If you can see sky from your room, then it is to be understood the room is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, all these things are here. Prabhupāda: We can see from the room the river. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise from the roof. So it is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think also that right now there's a lot of devotees here, so it's a little taxing, but once the festival's over, they will all be returning to their respective centers. It will be much calmer. (break) In the night? Prabhupāda: I do not take anything at night. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Morning, you are drinking milk? Is it . . .? Prabhupāda: Very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those cows are unique, that a cow can give her own weight in milk in eleven days. Prabhupāda: They are selling milk also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our farm? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we make fifteen hundred to two thousand dollars a month. Prabhupāda: So if there is more milk, you can sell more, get money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we're getting nearly two thousand dollars a month. *Hari-śauri: (7*-Up arrives) Is there ice? He was supposed to get some ice from the kitchen downstairs. *Bali*-mardana: It's cold. Prabhupāda: Who will open? You open it. *Bali*-mardana: I have just opened it. Is it cold enough? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: We call it, in India, lemonade. Hari-śauri: That was the original name, lemonade. And then all these new things, they changed all the names. *Bali*-mardana: It's good for bringing up gas. Prabhupāda: From my childhood I liked this lemonade. I think it was cost, in our childhood, three paisa . Hari-śauri: Three paisa! *Bali*-mardana: Now I think in India it costs one rupee. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One rupee, twenty paisa . Hari-śauri: For Limka. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, you get forty paisa back for the bottle, but it's between sixty*-five and eighty paisa after you get your money back. When we were travelling in Bhopal, we traveled there in the months of May and June. It was very hot. We were drinking seven bottles a day. Every hour. Every hour. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Lemonade. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gargamuni and I, we had to stop. We'd call it Limka. In India it is called Limka. *Bali*-mardana: When Westerners go to India, it is so hot the water just comes out, you know, sweat, all the time. Become dehydrated. Hari-śauri: Apart from that, you can't drink the water in India, so you have to drink Limka or something. It's safer to drink the lemonade . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: . . . than it is to drink the water. (end) Conversation A -- July 19, 1976, New York Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We haven't gotten all of the newspapers yet, but we did get some of them. This is the very popular Daily News . What is the circulation of the Daily News ? Few million, isn't it? *Bali*-mardana: Millions. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in the millions. It's the largest in New York. *Bali*-mardana: Largest circulation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they gave us the center section. *Bali*-mardana: That's the big . . . the most popular section. This side. Prabhupāda: Oh. "Fifth Avenue, Where East Meets West." Very good idea. Very good idea. Very nice. The . . . (indistinct) . . . selected. *Bali*-mardana: The other pictures, I think some are from the Olympics. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very prominent. The center section is . . . next to the front page, the center section is very . . . the most popular page in the paper, because it has interesting pictures. Prabhupāda: You can send one, this cutting, to Mr. Bhajaj, "Fifth Avenue, Where East Meets West." Very good. Hari-śauri: Send one to Māyāpur as well? Prabhupāda: Huh? You can send to many place, but this title is very nice. This is the point. This is the point. East, as I say always, the lame man meets the blind man. Together they'll do wonderful. And different they cannot do anything. He is blind; he is lame. But they join together, Indian culture and American money, they will save the whole world. Here is the . . . money required. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to hear what they wrote? Should I read to you what they said? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nicely written. "With everybody pulling together and everybody puffing together, a huge float is tugged down Fifth Avenue yesterday during the first Ratha*-yātrā Parade of International Society for Krishna Consciousness. The parade moved south from Central Park to Washington Square Park, where a free feast, music, art, dance and theater festival was held. According to a spokesperson, 'Ratha-yātrā is a time when people come to dance, sing and feast amidst a sublime atmosphere of bright flags, festoons, banners, garlands, flowers and incense, simply to feel the poetry and blissful nature of life.' " Prabhupāda: Very good. This is blissful nature. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you can see the devotees pulling the float. *Bali*-mardana: Read the caption in the middle. Prabhupāda: And they have created a civilization: wine, woman, gambling and meat. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's what it said: "The multicolored floats contrast with Fifth Avenue's concrete canyon as parade passes Thirty*-fourth Street yesterday." Here it says: "An idyllic mood in saffron robes." Prabhupāda: Everything is approved. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, highly approved. Then there's another, New York Times. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is one very important. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Beautiful photograph. *Bali*-mardana: "East Meets West in Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Feat." *Bali*-mardana: ". . . feat." Hari-śauri: Fete. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fete. Prabhupāda: You must purchase some copies. We shall send to India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at that picture, it's very clear. Should I read you this article? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one is not . . . it's not bad, but it's not so accurate. "In size it was dwarfed by 'Operation Sale.' In popular concern it was outweighed by the Democratic National Convention. But for hundreds of Hare Kṛṣṇa followers, including many Indian immigrants to New York, yesterday's Ratha*-yātrā festival was by far the most important event in an eventful month. Pulling three brightly-colored chariots down Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, the religious group's adherents were celebrating one of the oldest holy days of the Indian calendar, the feast of Jagannātha, the Lord of the Universe, according to Kṛṣṇa doctrine. Most of the participants in the parade were young Westerners, followers from as far away as Caracas and Montreal. But the crowd included hundreds of Indians, who brought the basic Kṛṣṇa faith with them from Bombay and Calcutta." Prabhupāda: That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's nice. "Like many other immigrant groups who preserved their forms of worship once they came to America, the Indians who watched or participated in the parade were pleased to see that they could keep the faith even in New York City." (laughter) Prabhupāda: These rascals, let them come, they become bara sāhīb. *Bali*-mardana: Become what? Prabhupāda: Bara sāhīb. Hari-śauri: Bara sāhīb , big Westerner. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "While Hare Kṛṣṇa propounds doctrines of world renunciation common to other varieties of the Hindu faith, the sect, officially known as the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, was founded in 1965 by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, whose fame as a guru came only after he arrived in the United States in the same year. For most of the Indians watching the parade, however, Hare Kṛṣṇa was close enough to their brand of Hinduism to make them feel at home." Gurudāsa: That's good. It means that we're not a light cult. It means we have a great tradition. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's actually good. Gurudāsa: They're recognizing that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: " 'It's surprising that you find this right in New York City. It's our way of life,' said Nagan Patel, a civil engineer from Jersey City, who emmigrated from Bombay. 'We love New York City and America. It's the most beautiful place in the world. No other country will give such freedom for our own ceremony.' " Prabhupāda: That's a fact. That I say always. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "But the Kṛṣṇa people were not entirely free of harassment. Along the parade route three men, including one who said he was an Evangelical Christian minister, jeered at the parade and called on parade watchers to become Christians. 'Idol worship. This is absolutely ridiculous. Read the Bible,' cried one man, who would identify himself only as a normal Christian. There was a brief scuffle when an Indian immigrant tried to tear a large placard out of the hands of another heckler. The placard read 'Turn or Burn.' The police broke things up but made no arrests. 'They are insulting us,' said the Kṛṣṇa follower who declined to identify himself. 'I'm a devotee of Kṛṣṇa and Christ. These people who are doing this in the name of Christ are criminals.' " Very strong statement. "Except for the hecklers, however, the parade was generally very well received by passersby, who enjoyed the three multi*-hued floats, the sun, and the chanting and dancing of the young Kṛṣṇa marchers. 'I think it's great,' said Tyrone Adams of Philadelphia, who was paying a visit to his home town of Englewood, New Jersey. 'I'm not religious, but they're all happy and dancing, and that is what life is all about.' " Even a nonreligious person said that. "In Washington Square a crowd of about three thousand, many of whom were there as part of the normal Sunday afternoon activities, heard Swami Prabhupāda deliver a lecture. Later, the crowd was served a free vegetarian feast. Along the side, Kṛṣṇa followers sold Indian sweets, Kṛṣṇa scriptures, and what one speaker described as 'transcendental paraphernalia.' " Prabhupāda: Very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's a good article. For the Times especially it's good, because they are very conservative. Prabhupāda: The Times first published about my activities from Tompkinson Square. They first published. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now over the television last night there was gigantic coverage. CBS, which is the most important station, gave two and a half minutes' coverage. *Bali*-mardana: Wow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have very big program, and the reporters—Dhṛṣṭadyumna was watching—he said that the reporters through the whole news, they were very grim, and then they, because they read what they're saying, and suddenly their faces lit up, and they said: "And Hare Kṛṣṇa had a parade today!" And then they described the whole parade. And they loved it. They said it was very well received. CBS reported, ABC reported, NBC reported, Channel Five gave big coverage—all the television networks gave a big coverage. It was very well publicized, with a lot of coverage and photos. They were showing movies of the parade, of you lecturing, of the crowds that were gathered taking prasādam . Prabhupāda: Somebody should send this clippings, not our men, to . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To your Godbrothers. Prabhupāda: To Indira Gandhi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some Indian people. Prabhupāda: She is little anxious to cooperate with Americans, because the most criticism for his (her) present act . . . and everyone will criticize. The Americans have criticized like anything. And they are thinking that the American people are capturing that . . . actually, the nation is under danger. (break) (end) Conversation -- July 20, 1976, New York (in car) Prabhupāda: Appreciating. Rāmeśvara: They have so many different groups, religious groups and minority groups from other parts of the world, they call it a melting pot. So they accept us because they've accepted so many others, the Puerto Ricans, the blacks, so similarly they are accepting us. Prabhupāda: Who? Rāmeśvara: This city, the people of this city. Prabhupāda: America. Rāmeśvara: New York. Prabhupāda: New York. Rāmeśvara: In other places they consider us to be very foreign, alien. But here there are so many foreigners, so it fits right in. Prabhupāda: This is the Tenth Street? No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Amsterdam Avenue. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ninth Avenue turns into Amsterdam Avenue. *Rāmeśvara: Next year at the Ratha*-yātrā they are planning to have a press box, so that the newspapermen and the television cameras can come and film the activities on stage also. They can film your lecture, they can film the play. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're also thinking to have a press box along the parade route, so that they can stay in an elevated position and take photos. We collected a total of about seven thousand dollars, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: And what you spent? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spent ten thousand. But we also collected another fifteen thousand in advertisements. So total collection was about twenty, over twenty thousand, and expenditure was under ten. Prabhupāda: Good business. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And that was the first year. Rāmeśvara: (chants japa ) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next year we will collect sixty to seventy thousand dollars . . . Devotee: Whew! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . easily, I'm sure, with advertisements. Prabhupāda: So where the profit is going? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is the profit? Into distributing more books. Prabhupāda: That's nice, very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is our only business. (break) . . . completely cleansed all of the grounds throughout the night, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last night all night long we were cleaning up the grounds. Rāmeśvara: At the park. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At the park. One woman who lives next to the park said: "In all my years of living here I've never seen such a wonderful festival held." Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And one . . . the official of the park, who's in charge of the park, was on CBS television, and he said that, "You see? Spiritual life is still present in Washington Square Park." He made that comment. He said: "We are very proud to be able to say that in our . . . this park was founded hundreds of years ago, when America was religious." And he said, "Spiritual life is still present in Washington Square Park." Prabhupāda: So why not ask the mayor to construct a temple there? (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think they'd agree. Prabhupāda: People will come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe, but, ah, I don't think they will agree to that. They're not that spiritual. Rāmeśvara: No, in America you have to raise your own money for temples. You cannot get the city to build it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you can't get their land either, not for a building like that. You can put up a hospital maybe. Thing is, park space is so short in that area of the city that they . . . I don't think they'd give it up for a building. Prabhupāda told us yesterday that we should rent a small building downtown in that area and call it Guṇḍicā, so that Lord Jagannātha will stay down there. Prabhupāda: For one week. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For one week. And we'll keep a restaurant there. Prabhupāda: And then they'll again come in procession. Rāmeśvara: Wow! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, two festivals. Gurudāsa: I was told that there was another procession last night bringing the car back, and all the night persons—there's a different whole segment of the city, people who come at night . . . Devotee: Bums. Gurudāsa: . . . who stay up all night. And they were there, hundreds of people following the car back in the nighttime. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It took about seven hours to bring the carts back. All night they worked. Jayānanda was slaving out there, and Ādi*-keśa Swami. Ādi-keśa finally got back at five in the morning, collapsed on the carts. He was exhausted. Prabhupāda: They should be given some recommendations in writing. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Give Ādi*-keśa a recommendation. This will be gigantic, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'll tell you one thing, that the first way we go, next year when we go one way, it will get huge publicity, and that will be the publicity for the going return trip. Because it will be so publicized, even more people will come on the return ride. Rāmeśvara: On the return you simply go to the temple and drop the Deities off? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We'll go to Fifty*-ninth Street and have another feast at the park. Rāmeśvara: Yes, there has to be another feast. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll have the feast. We may have buses, we'll have all our buses, and we'll bus the people to the temple. We could rent buses, Rāmeśvara. *Prabhupāda: Return Ratha*-yātrā. Ulṭā-ratha . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is it called? *Prabhupāda: Ulṭā*-ratha . *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ulṭā*-ratha. Rāmeśvara: Should the actors perform the Herā Pañcamī ceremony? Prabhupāda: That is in the middle. Rāmeśvara: In the middle. Prabhupāda: Do that. Rāmeśvara: So they can do that? (break) . . . pañcamī , where they carry the goddess of fortune on an opulent palanquin. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, New York doesn't have a name. We have to give it some name. We call Los Angeles as New Dvārakā. Here it's just New York. (break) *Rāmeśvara: (whispering) . . . Rādhā*-vallabha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh? *Rāmeśvara: Rādhā*-vallabha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . monkey. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Rāmeśvara: Rādhā*-vallabha is your faithful servant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Guarding you. (break) (walking) Ghanaśyāma: We were talking about the pictures, the paintings in the books. We were mentioning how professors liked the paintings and how sometimes they actually buy the books because of the nice paintings. Sometimes when we go back to see a professor or librarian a year later, we'll notice that they'll have a catalogue up on the bulletin board. Sometimes they'll take the cover of the jacket of the book and they'll put it on display. And now we're getting recognized when we go to some of the colleges. They say: "Oh, you're the man with the nice colorful books. We've seen your catalogue, we got one in the mail. We've seen your books, and they're very attractive books." And our men are getting known now that because we've been to most of the schools in America once, and they say: "You're the men who don't leave until your books are in the library." Even if the school is closed, our men, now, they'll go to the professor's home and they'll get him out of bed to come to see the librarian or to write a notice or to call the librarian. So even if the school is closed, the books are still being placed, and when the students come the books are in the library. (break) (in car) Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Is that what you want? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa Mahārāja can speak very nice. Satsvarūpa: The speaking starts in the fall, especially. That's when we could work together. Prabhupāda: No, in our temple. Satsvarūpa: In the temples also. Gurudāsa: Should I not go to the London zone at this time? I've been invited. They say they need a sannyāsī in that zone, for years, so I've been invited. Do you think I should go now with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja, or go to London? Prabhupāda: That you decide among, among all of you. Gurudāsa: All right. Very good. (break) *Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ ( SB 5.18.12). As soon as one becomes devotee, all the good qualification immediately manifest. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct background comments) . . . all these people hanging out and making noise. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- July 21, 1976, New York (in car) *Rāmeśvara: And I've been told that all the TV stations showed our Ratha*-yātrā. That means millions of people saw the ratha cart. And everyone has seen it in the newspapers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: That Newsday also had coverage. We didn't get that paper for Prabhupāda, but they also . . . this is even before their article, interview. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. What about Newsweek and . . .? Rāmeśvara: When those interviews that those reporters took are published, we'll send them to you immediately. (aside) Newsday , Associated Press and Newsweek . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . higher to temple. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not exactly. We'll go, probably, over the Fifty*-ninth Street bridge, right? *Ādi*-keśava: I think it would be better now to go through the tunnel. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tunnel? *Ādi*-keśava: Little easier ride. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're going over the tunnel, into the tunnel. What street is that? Fifty . . .? *Ādi*-keśava: About Thirtieth Street. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You think that's faster? *Ādi*-keśava: Yes, it goes right under . . . (indistinct discussion about route) (break) Rāmeśvara: . . . people of New York are appreciating, Prabhupāda, how you came here alone and now you have a big building with many followers. Actually the people are aware, very much aware of how you started this movement in New York. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And were struggling personally. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . life there is struggle. Without struggling there is no . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not be . . . try to avoid struggle. Prabhupāda: No. Because we have got preaching point of view. Preaching means struggling. If it was simply bhajana , you can sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "There's one credit that I have. I was never a lazy fellow." Prabhupāda: Yes, throughout my life. (end) Interview -- July 23, 1976, London (Interview with religion editor of The Observer) Prabhupāda: I think I saw you before? No. Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Colin Cross, who is the religious correspondent for The Observer . This is His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. And this is Tony McGraw, who is a photographer. Jayatīrtha: The Observer is one of the most respected newspapers. Prabhupāda: You can give chair. Colin Cross: No, I'll sit on the floor. Jayatīrtha: You sure you're comfortable this way? We can have them bring a chair. There's no problem. Colin Cross: Yes, I can . . . no, a chair would give the wrong atmosphere. Prabhupāda: So you are observing our movement? Colin Cross: Yes, really for the first time at close quarters. Prabhupāda: First time? We are here for the last seven years. Colin Cross: Yes, I know a little about you, but it's only in the last hour that I've really begun to learn. Jayatīrtha: We showed him the movie. Prabhupāda: Your paper is Observer . Why did you not observe for the last seven years? (laughter) Mukunda: We just showed him our film. Prabhupāda: How did you like? Colin Cross: Oh, it was very interesting. Again, it taught me a lot that I did not previously know. Prabhupāda: We are trying to give real life. The present civilization is . . . (to someone else) Hare Kṛṣṇa. How are you? (converses in Hindi) You are religious observer. What is your idea of religion? Colin Cross: I would say much the same as yours, from what I've seen in your writings—that there's an underlying truth behind all religion. Would you agree with that? Prabhupāda: Religion, as it is explained in the dictionary, "Accepting a supreme controller." Is it not? Colin Cross: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So do the people accept a supreme controller? Do they accept? There are so many system of religions, but do they actually know who is the supreme controller? That is my question. What do you think? Just like this is British government, and we know that the Queen is the supreme controller. Similarly, of all creation, cosmic manifestation, there is a supreme controller. And who is that supreme controller? Do they know it? That is my question. Colin Cross: I mean, what is your attitude towards Christianity? Prabhupāda: Don't come to Christianity. I'm talking on religion, the science of religion. The religion . . . when we speak of religion, there is no question of Christianity or Muslim or Hindu. Just like when they speak of gold, gold is gold everywhere. Gold cannot be Muslim gold or Hindu gold or Christian gold. First try . . . we are concerned with gold, not the country where the gold is produced. That is not very important thing. Whether it is gold, that is our business. Colin Cross: I mean, would you count Jesus Christ as gold? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? He's speaking about the supreme controller, God, so why should we not? Anyone who is speaking about God . . . (break) Colin Cross: You don't accept it as mere sentiment. Prabhupāda: No. Religion without science or philosophy is sentiment. And philosophy without religion is mental speculation. So they must be combined together. So far the controller is concerned, this is scientific understanding. Just like the father . . . we consider . . . why we? Everyone. Either he is Christian or Muhammadan or Hindu, the conception of God is generally accepted as the supreme father. Colin Cross: I mean, it is a fact. Prabhupāda: It is fact. Colin Cross: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because, just like anything, creation means the mother, the father and the children. That is our practical experience. Without mother, we are nowhere. We are given birth by the mother. So the material nature is the mother. From the material nature, material elements, everything is coming. From the water the fishes are coming, from the land the grass, the worms, and then human being, they are coming. From the air also living entities are coming. So therefore material nature is the mother, and we have come out of the material nature, therefore we are children. Then there must be father, because without father, simply mother cannot give birth. This is science. You cannot deny the existence of God simply by a false argument. This is real argument. The mother is there, material nature, and we are children there. There must be father. Colin Cross: In England, the Christian Church in recent years or recent decades has been doing very badly and losing support. Your teaching could perhaps provide a substitute for the more traditional type of Christian teaching. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is science. Therefore I say religion without scientific idea, that is sentiment. It has no value. This is basic principle of religion, that the mother is there, the children are there—there must be father. If you say: "I do not see what is God," it doesn't matter. Sometimes the child after birth does not see his father. But that does not mean that he has no father, because without father there is no possibility of his existence. Colin Cross: What impelled you personally, when you, at a fairly late stage in life, to come to the West and teach? *Prabhupāda: I must be prepared to teach. Teaching is not so easy thing. I was ordered to teach at the age of twenty*-five years by my Guru Mahārāja. But I was finding out the opportunity how to take up the work. So it took me so many years, so that at seventy years I came out for teaching. Colin Cross: Why particularly in the West? Prabhupāda: Because my Guru Mahārāja ordered that, "You go and teach this gospel in the Western world." Jayatīrtha: His teacher instructed him to do this. Colin Cross: Yes. And are you surprised at the great success you've had? Prabhupāda: That is my Guru Mahārāja's blessings. He ordered me, I tried my best, so there is little success. When I see so many boys and hundreds of centers, they are living very peacefully in a nice house, getting good prasādam , having good knowledge in the books, and reforming their character and getting some good home, that is my success. Otherwise, they are loitering—no home, no character, no peace of mind. So at least this is my success. I have given so many boys a life. That is my success. Colin Cross: Well, I'm very honored to have met you. I've read some of your work. I intend to read more. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are trying to give the best service to the humanity, human society, and this is the only service. People should come forward and cooperate with us. It is not a sectarian, sentimental religious system. It is a scientific understanding of the value of life. Colin Cross: Well, thank you very much indeed, sir. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (end) Conversation -- July 24, 1976, London (at Bhaktivedanta Manor) Viśāla: I have understood from other devotees that you said that anyone who has taken birth in India is in the mode of goodness, but anyone who has taken birth in the United States is in the mode of passion. And yet everyone is born śūdra . So could you make it clear to me? I don't understand. If we're all born śūdra , how are the people born in the mode of goodness in India and the people in the United States are born in the mode of passion? Prabhupāda: Same thing: that if you are born in a rich family, but you can squander away your money and become a poor man. Viśāla: Ah. Ah. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: (laughs) To born in a rich family is not a guarantee that you will continue to be rich. (laughs) (break) Viśāla: . . . how do you achieve the transcendental blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa, but better still, how do you achieve the transcendental blessings of the spiritual master? Prabhupāda: (to Gurudāsa) Answer him. Gurudāsa: By carrying out the orders of the spiritual master, cent percent. Prabhupāda: Answer him explaining. What is his question? Viśāla: How does one achieve the mercy of the spiritual master, the real mercy of the spiritual master, in order to achieve full Kṛṣṇa consciousness? (break) Gurudāsa: The spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa, so by serving the spiritual master, then we know how to serve Kṛṣṇa, and in that way we're serving . . . we are receiving the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. So this process is descending process, that we're receiving the benediction moon of Lord Kṛṣṇa's mercy through the spiritual master, and Lord Kṛṣṇa is saying: "Surrender to Me," but the question is how to surrender. So the spiritual master is there to explain how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So by doing what the spiritual master wishes, that is what Kṛṣṇa wishes. Just like a representative of an industrialist or the head of a university or any big, big man, his representative can distribute how best to serve in that way. And when that is being carried out, then the mercy is distributed. (break) Devotee (3): . . . simply, you know, following out your orders and instruction, then this will destroy all material desires that we have? We have no real desire to serve Lord Kṛṣṇa. We would rather be in His place. That's why we're here. And similarly, with the spiritual master, we don't really know how to serve him. We can say, "I surrender to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda," but that doesn't mean very much. But from simply by following your instructions you have set down, will this be enough to destroy all material desires we have? Prabhupāda: What do you mean by material desires? Devotee (3): Even within spiritual life, I may . . . Prabhupāda: No. Define material desires. Devotee (3): Material desires? To enjoy the senses and the body. To desire . . . Prabhupāda: Sense gratification. Devotee (3): Yes, sensual gratification. Prabhupāda: Then? Devotee (3): Even within spiritual life one can desire to be a great spiritualist, or one can desire to be a best devotee or best at doing this or being closest to the spiritual master, and things like that. Prabhupāda: That is not material desire. Devotee (3): That is not material desire? Prabhupāda: No. Material desire means sense gratification: I shall eat more, I shall sleep more, I shall have sex life more, I shall defend more—these are material desires. I shall serve more Kṛṣṇa—that is not material. I shall try my best for serving Kṛṣṇa—these are not material desires. These are spiritual desires. Desire you cannot stop. That is not possible. So long you are, your desires are there. Desire should be purified. When I desire to gratify my senses, that is material. When I desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. The desire is there. Not to stop desire. But desire for some personal sense gratification, that is material. And desire for satisfying Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. So you have to understand how you are desiring. Are you desiring for your personal gratification, or you are desiring to satisfy Kṛṣṇa? That anyone can understand. If you are in doubt, then ask your spiritual master that, "I am desiring like this. Whether it is material or spiritual?" That's all. General definition is, desiring for personal gratification is material; desiring for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction is spiritual. Now, because we are not experienced, we may commit mistake, one for the other. Therefore, whenever there is doubt, refer the matter to your spiritual master. So Māyāvādī philosopher says that, "Don't desire." That is not possible. "Don't desire" is not possible. Desire must be there, but I have to see whether I am desiring for my personal gratification or I am desiring for Kṛṣṇa. That is to be seen. And if you are in doubt, then ask your spiritual master. Is it clear? Devotee (3): Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) Devotee: . . . is that in our neophyte stage, how can we have actual desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to refer to the spiritual master. Devotee: You have to what to the spir . . .? Prabhupāda: Refer the matter to your spiritual master. If he says yes, it is all right. If he says no, then it is not right. (break) In primary school, the small child is writing and showing to the teacher, "Sir, it is all right?" and he says: "Yes, it is all right." That's all. If he says: "No," then you have to write again. (break) . . . candlestick? Woman devotee: Candles? Prabhupāda: These, candles. Woman devotee: In your room? Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman devotee: Your light is on. Prabhupāda: Huh? (break) That means, according to their system, sun is 93 million miles away. And if the moon is above that, 1,600,000, so it is almost 95 million. So after 95 million miles, how they can go in moon? Jayatīrtha: Of course, they say that the moon's only 263,000 miles away. Prabhupāda: That is wrong. Wrong means according to Bhāgavata , the moon is above. Harikeśa: It says: "The *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* describes that the covering of the universe is 200 . . ." uh, wait a minute now, "260 . . ." Prabhupāda: Billion Harikeśa: "260 million yojanas , and 2 billion", that's 2,080,000,000—miles away from the sun. "The distance from the sun to the earth is a hundred thousand yojanas ." Prabhupāda: That's all right. Yes. Harikeśa: So I took this reference, and I added it to the reference on 22.8. 22.8 says that, "Above the rays of the sunshine, by a distance of a hundred thousand yojanas , is the moon." Then it says: "When we take into account that the moon is a hundred thousand yojanas above the rays of the sunshine . . ." Prabhupāda: Above the rays of the sunshine. Harikeśa: Hmm. So the . . . Prabhupāda: Above. So the sun is far away from the earth. Harikeśa: But "The sun only goes as far as the rays of the . . ." (trying to calculate) Prabhupāda: That's all right, you can calculate . . . (indistinct) . . . now. I want just a rough estimate that if moon is accepted above the sun, it is their calculation the sun is from the earth at a distance of 93 million. So 93 million miles and 1,600,000 is about 95 million miles. So 95 million miles, even at the speed of 25,000 per hour, how they can they go in four days? When there is argument, I shall take your words in my favor. (laughter) That is the way. Whatever is in my favor, I shall take as good. And Mars is beyond that. So the other may be calculated. At the rate of 18,000 miles per hour, it takes about seven months to go to the moon planet. And above that, another 1,600,000 miles above, will be Mars. So it will take about nine months for that. Devotee (6): Actually, that's how long it took. Hari-śauri: Well, they say it's 208 million miles from earth. Devotee (6): This spaceship to Mars was supposed to have been launched almost a year ago. Hari-śauri: No. Their calculation to Mars is over 200 million miles. Prabhupāda: 200 million miles. Hari-śauri: Over. More than that. I can't remember the exact figure, but it was more than 200 million. Prabhupāda: But the sun is 93 million miles. So above that? Jayatīrtha: It's the other direction. The sun's that way, and Mars is the other way. Hari-śauri: It's away from the sun. Prabhupāda: That, what is called, solar system, eh? The sun is fixed up, and there are circle. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is not calculated above. What is there above? How they calculate the seven stars? Or the polestar? What is their calculation? Jayatīrtha: They say that it's hundreds of light years away. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: They say that the North Star is hundreds of light years away. Prabhupāda: Now, what does it mean, north? Jayatīrtha: It's always . . . because it's . . . Prabhupāda: Up. *Jayatīrtha: Umm*-hmm. Prabhupāda: So where is up? Gurudāsa: Isn't it fixed star? It's the one star that doesn't move, the North Star. The other stars move; this one doesn't. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Polestar. Gurudāsa: The North Star doesn't move, while all the others move; so therefore they call it the fixed point of north. Prabhupāda: No, no. Jayatīrtha: The sailors always used to point to it, towards north. Prabhupāda: Where is the North Star? Where solar system is, here is sun, and the circle, different types of other planets. So where is this North Star? Where it is situated in the solar system? Jayatīrtha: It's a long ways away from their solar system, they say. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: They say it's many billions of miles away from their solar system. Prabhupāda: So away, which side? Up? Down? North? South? You have to know the direction. Jayatīrtha: Must be up. Prabhupāda: And then what is that "up"? Why do they take "up," north? When we see the map, why do we take north as the up and south as the down? Why they take direction like that? So north means up? Jayatīrtha: Can you see the North Star from Australia? Hari-śauri: I don't think so. Jayatīrtha: There's different stars that are visible in Australia. Prabhupāda: How it must be visible? Gurudāsa: They do all navigation . . . Prabhupāda: Australia is . . . (indistinct) . . . place on this planet. If North Star is visible from here, it can be visible from there. Hari-śauri: No. I think they say that it's only visible from the northern hemisphere. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: That in the southern hemisphere, it's a completely different set of stars. You can't see the same set of stars from the southern hemisphere that you can from the northern hemisphere. In the southern hemisphere, they take their navigational readings from what's called the Southern Cross. It's a group of stars, and they take it from them. Prabhupāda: The seven stars are not visible? Hari-śauri: I don't know about the seven stars. I don't think the North Star is visible. Prabhupāda: If the North Star is not visible, the seven stars also you will not see. Hari-śauri: No. Other stars are visible. Prabhupāda: How it is visible? Because the seven stars are attached with the North Star. Hari-śauri: Alright I don't know about the seven stars, but there's some stars. Some stars are visible. Jayatīrtha: It's called the Big Dipper. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: In the West they call the seven stars the Big Dipper. Hari-śauri: Big Dipper. Jayatīrtha: And the North Star is one end of that. Hari-śauri: That's the Plow, right? It looks like that. Gurudāsa: It is like a ladle. Hari-śauri: No. You can't see that in the south. Prabhupāda: Saptarṣi . We call saptarṣi . Gurudāsa: Saptarṣi . Hari-śauri: That's not visible in the south. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: That is not visible in the southern hemisphere. Prabhupāda: I do not believe. Gurudāsa: In India it's visible. Hari-śauri: That's northern hemisphere. Jayatīrtha: North of the equator. Hari Śauri: It's not visible in Australia. Prabhupada: Srila . . . not fact. Jayatīrtha: It makes sense. Prabhupāda: What? Jayatīrtha: It makes sense, though. Prabhupāda: What is that? Jayatīrtha: That you couldn't see it, because the earth, they go like this, and the sun also, and the stars are up there. Prabhupāda: Then you cannot see sun also. Devotee (6): The sun is above the earth. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Earth. Hari-śauri: They can see the sun, because the sun is going around and moving up and down. Jayatīrtha: They say the sun is here, the earth is here, so that the earth is turning around like this. Therefore, sometimes you can see the sun and sometimes you can't. Devotee: And the seven stars . . . (indistinct) Jayatīrtha: In the nighttime you cannot see it; in the daytime you can. Because the earth is turning around and going like this. Prabhupāda: You know the seven stars are not visible from there? Hari-śauri: Yeah, I looked. I'm sure they're not visible. In the northern hemisphere they're always visible, but in the southern hemisphere they're not. I can check on it, but I'm . . . Prabhupāda: You can ask anyone from Australia whether the seven stars are visible there. Jayatīrtha: Yeah. Okay. Prabhupāda: Or you can ask any mathematicians or . . . (indistinct) . . . men. Hari-śauri: This is very confusing, this . . . Harikeśa: No, this chart was very carefully done. This chart was very carefully done. I appreciated it after I studied it for about a week. Very carefully done. Jayatīrtha: Yeah, I know what you mean. Hari-śauri: It's . . . there's only . . . Prabhupāda: It . . . (indistinct) . . . be it will be right. Devotee: But otherwise it was pretty good. Prabhupāda: It requires a little mathematical astronomy knowledge to translate this very difficult subject in Sanskrit language. I have done as far as possible, but when we make our planetarium, we have to consult the Indian astronomers or mathematicians. In this way, we have to correct if there is . . . (indistinct) Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa wouldn't let me find any. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: Every time I tried, it was a failure. I couldn't find anybody who knew. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . that is just like this chandelier. The North Star is up, and it is hanging, and the whole . . . (indistinct) . . . moon. Harikeśa: You should take your camera one day, put it on the roof, and point it at the polestar, and you'll see everything going like this. You put it on that beam where it's open all the time. Gurudāsa: Yes, open all the time. Harikeśa: You should do that, and you'll see everything going like that. It'll prove it. It'll knock out the whole scientific world. Hari-śauri: They've already done that, though, but they say it's for a different reason, don't they? Harikeśa: Well, that's what they say, but we've got the proof. Gurudāsa: But they agree on that, that it doesn't work. Harikeśa: Yeah, but then why everything's going around it? You can see it. Everything goes like that around the polestar. The whole thing. You can see little circles all around the polestar. That proves it. They can't deny it. (laughs) Gurudāsa: You can leave the camera lens open. Prabhupāda: If, when our night is, Australia is day? Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Huh? Is that the fact? Harikeśa: No, not necessarily. Hari-śauri: Partially. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: When it's nighttime in England, then it's daytime in Australia. Hari-śauri: Yeah, just like it's midsummer here now, and in Australia it's midwinter. Prabhupāda: That I know. Harikeśa: Day and night goes by the way it's situated around the earth, like India is nighttime now, and here is . . . Jayatīrtha: When it's daytime in Alaska, it's also daytime in Australia, because they're more or less on the same . . . Harikeśa: It goes by the . . . Jayatīrtha: It's on the same side. Harikeśa: Longitude. Hari-śauri: It's opposite. England and Australia are opposite on the globe. It's nighttime there as well. Jayatīrtha: Therefore they used to say that the sun never sets on the British Empire. Because when it was daytime in Australia, it was nighttime in Britain. (laughter) Gurudāsa: They say the sun never sets in the British Empire because the sun never shines on them . . . (indistinct) . . . the set. Jayatīrtha: (laughs) Nowadays that's true. Prabhupāda: (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . better now it is morning. So he says what is for me morning, evening. It is all dark. There are many millions of universes. So that is not visible. That is beyond the visible. Jayatīrtha: Yes. They would dispute that, but they have no proof. Prabhupāda: They have nothing proof. We have got proof. Their brain developed two hundred years ago, and this brain . . . they cannot calculate when it was developed. That is the difference. They were microbes at that time. While they were microbes, still development took place. In the beginning they were microbes? Jayatīrtha: That's what they say, yes. (laughs) Again you're using their argument against them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: Again you're using their argument against them. Prabhupāda: Yes. They were microbes. What can you say . . . (indistinct) . . .? So when you were microbes, the Vedic civilization was there. They have to admit. We speak of millions and trillions of years, and they speak of some thousands of years. They say the, what is called, human brain, the technical, 40,000 years ago . . . (indistinct) Jayatīrtha: Forty thousand? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: They say? Prabhupāda: Forty thousands or something, forty. Jayatīrtha: Oh, but it wasn't civilized. Gurudāsa: It wasn't developed. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: It wasn't civilized. Gurudāsa: The Pleistocene is one million, Pleistocene. But the brain developed 40,000. Prabhupāda: Because the life was beginning from microbic. But ours is in the beginning there was Brahmās brain, who is in charge of creating this universal affair. Gurudāsa: How many years is that calculated? Prabhupāda: That you cannot calculate. Jayatīrtha: It's logical that things were originally very big or very developed and then became degraded, and it isn't logical that things were originally small and became developed, because everything we see in the material world becomes eroded or becomes degraded over a period of time. A big stone gets washed down. Gurudāsa: From nature we see that things start nice and decay. Therefore this supports our facts also, that there was high civilization, not a civilization that's lower. It supports that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called Kali*-yuga. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Everything is degraded. Gurudāsa: Some people ask why there are no signs of dinosaurs at the time of Rāmacandra. Sometimes they ask that. Prabhupāda: So who knows? Who says there was no dinosaur? Gurudāsa: Because it's not . . . Prabhupāda: And what is that nonsense, dinosaur? That is manufactured by Darwin. Jayatīrtha: They put together the bones. Gurudāsa: Big bones. Jayatīrtha: Big bones. Prabhupāda: Big bones can be had still. Timiṅgala . Devotee (7): Also people were bigger at that time, so the little animals might have been bigger. Prabhupāda: No. Apart from that, the timiṅgala is there. It is about maybe two miles, three miles long. What is that? In the Pacific Ocean, if there is a fish two miles long, what is that? Jayatīrtha: Oh, the timiṅgila fish. They swallow whales. Gurudāsa: In the *Rāmāyaṇa* it talks about large birds, but it doesn't mention dinosaur. Prabhupāda: But dinosaur, it is English word. There may be some Sanskrit. Just like timiṅgala. Timiṅgala you will not find in the English dictionary, but this word is there. In the Bhāgavata there is timiṅgala . We haven't got to tax our brain so much for these thing, but we can have an idea of the whole universe through the knowledge given by Bhāgavata . That is all. We are not concerned where is the sun, where is the Mars. We kick all these things. We go to Vaikuṇṭha. Jayatīrtha: (laughter) Right. Prabhupāda: Even there are such things—there are undoubtedly—we don't care for these billion planets. We don't care. Jayatīrtha: Like the scientists were arguing. Recently they made a big campaign against astrology because they said that the stars and the planets have no influence on human behavior or human life; therefore astrology is useless. So I was saying to one man that the scientists say here that the planets and the stars have no influence on human life; therefore why are they spending so much time studying them and trying to go to them, if they have no influence? Waste of time. Prabhupāda: Then how long they will study? Even they study . . . Jayatīrtha: As long as they can get money from the government, they'll study. Prabhupāda: . . . what they will study? Their lifetime will be finished, and they are going to be a dog. Then instead of studying, they will bark. What they are going to do then? Gurudāsa: It's nonsense. There are so many people who just do nonsense in the name of science because they are weakened. They don't have an idea of the meaning of life, so they say: "The quest for new worlds." They don't even know what they're questing for. Nonsense. Prabhupāda: And what benefit they will get? Gurudāsa: No benefit, except money. Jayatīrtha: I read in the paper . . . Prabhupāda: From an economic point of view, it is simply waste of money. But they will do it. Jayatīrtha: One scientist did research in Texas . . . Prabhupāda: For knowledge sake, we have got this Bhāgavata. Bhāgavata says it is like this. That's all. Why shall I go to research unless I have got some business? Gurudāsa: Because they are not satisfied. They want to see something new. We are satisfied with the nectar of the Bhāgavata . They want something new because they're dissatisfied. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudāsa: They're dissatisfied, so they want something new. *Prabhupāda: Dissatisfied is the material life. Nobody is satisfied with any position. That is material world. If you have got one thousand rupees, you are not satisfied. If you have got one million rupees, you are not satisfied. If you have got many millions of rupees, you are not . . . Birla, ask them: "Are you satisfied? Why you are doing business? Go on." Nobody is satisfied. Indra is not satisfied, Candra is not satisfied. There is fight between the demons and devotees. This is material world—nobody can be satisfied. Therefore Vāmanadeva says that it is not possible to be satisfied. When Bali Mahārāja said that, "You are so learned*-speaking that Your instruction are to be accepted by the greatest learned man, but still You are so childish that You are asking me three feet of land. This is Your childish innocence. So why not ask more?" But He said: "No. Why shall I ask more? If I ask more, that will not satisfy Me. If I ask more, that will not satisfy Me. It will never satisfy Me. The best thing is, now whatever I need at the present moment, that much I want." And He is giving reason that, "A beggar should not ask from the giver more than what is absolutely necessary. So why shall I ask more?" Bali Mahārāja was inducing it that, "He is a child, so what three feet will do of this beggar?" He did not know that two feet is sufficient to cover up and down. So for argument's sake, that "You are asking me just like a . . . exactly as You are small boy." Gurudāsa: It also states in the *Bhāgavatam* that a beggar should not ask something that someone cannot give. Prabhupāda: No. Beggar, they should ask alms, little—not big amount from one person. The brahmacārī was sent house to house. Begging means alms, muṣṭi , for muṣṭi . So any family, one palmful of rice to give anyone in those days, practically. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So, where I have to go now? Jayatīrtha: We were thinking that it would be good if you rested for today. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: We were thinking that it would be good if you rested for the day and didn't go down, because yesterday you were quite tired after you went down. Hari-śauri: If you have to go out tomorrow morning, better thing is to rest completely today, and not strain yourself. Have at least one more day full rest. Because yesterday was the first time that you've had a full meal also. (end) Conversation -- July 25, 1976, London (at the house of Ksirodakasayi dasa) (kīrtana in background) *Jayatīrtha: . . . was sitting previously, which was being worshiped, Sanātana was being worshiped at this place. So he sat down because he was thinking that he was good as standing up, same as standing up. So one Vaiṣṇava priest who was taking care of the place, he threw him out. So in the book they complained that the Vaiṣṇavas are considered to be very narrow*-minded. (laughter) Now I can understand . . . Prabhupāda: Here. He was kicked out. Jayatīrtha: Yes, the boy threw him out. So they were complaining about this. Prabhupāda: Just see. How bogus he was. No, when I go to met in . . . (indistinct) . . . that, in the beginning that Prabhavananda, the rascal said that, "RamaKṛṣṇa was formerly Caitanya Mahāprabhu." He began like that. Then I could understand, "What a rascal he is, and I have to waste my time." So I did not answer anything. I said: "Thank you very much for your meeting," and I went out. This rascal's first proposal was that RamaKṛṣṇa Thakur was formerly Caitanya. This is the beginning. He was so rascal. (pause) Prabhupāda: This is framework house. Hare Kṛṣṇa. If some of the svāmīs may have said, they say that, "Why you call us rascal and so many things?" So you say that, "We are not calling you; Kṛṣṇa says. So we are pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have to repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's it. We cannot help it. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ ( BG 7.15). So you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore you must be mūḍha ." Kṣīrodakaśāyī: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Jayatīrtha: The best thing Kṛṣṇa has to say about them is that they are abuddhayaḥ . The best thing Kṛṣṇa says about them is they are unintelligent. Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ (BG 7.24). *Prabhupāda: Abuddhayaḥ , no intelligence. And similarly, those who are demigod*-worshiper, they have been described naṣṭa-buddhayaḥ , "Lost of intelligence." These are statements in the Bhagavad-gītā . We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness; we have to say. How we can avoid this? It may be displeasing to you, but we are not sorry. (laughter) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We are not sorry. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say the other party. But we have to say it. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No, they all very pleased. They are all very pleased there. I say, when you can get off and Prabhupāda again comes, take prasādam , you can get off on that. They are waiting, but they will not take prasāda unless Prabhupāda's . . . they are about . . . over about two hundred people now. This temple here, all garden full. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they liked. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, they liked very much. Prabhupāda: But I spoke very strong thing against RamaKṛṣṇa. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Because you spoke the truth, facts. Prabhupāda: And I challenged that, "Any question? Please come." Indian man: (indistinct) . . . couldn't say anything. Prabhupāda: Dr. Kapoor says that . . . Indian man: O.B.L. Kapoor? Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, yes. That, "Bhaktivedanta Swami speaks as strongly as Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī was speaking." You know that? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Oh, yes. I met so many times. I understand also. Prabhupāda: He said that. Jayatīrtha: Very nice compliment. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: He also said that, "Śrīla Prabhupāda is only one who has really taken the . . . his mission seriously." Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Of course, I don't say myself. That will not look good. But there is other . . . (indistinct conversation in background) They, all my Godbrothers, realize it. "But he is the only representative." Somebody, they frankly admit, and somebody do not. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I met . . . some, they are starting coming here to see how the things are. (laughs) They all came. Still they are coming. I think . . . somebody said that Bon Mahārāja came. Prabhupāda: He came here? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Pardon? Not here. I mean in London. Not here. I never invite anybody, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, no. London he came? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, I heard. I don't know. Somebody was telling. And then so many svāmīs , so many, from Vṛndāvana they are coming. Because many, many guests come, Prabhupāda, in the week or during the day. They tell me that "Would you like to go? Some svāmī has come, some . . ." "Our svāmī is already here." (laughs) Prabhupāda: That's it. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: They invite some invitation. They have had a big international religious conference in Millford a few weeks back, and all the professors, universities and big, big shark . . . I have got not got the English . . . Prabhupāda: Mūḍhas . Kṣīrodakaśāyī: (laughs) Mūḍhas , yes. So I understand . . . some of the friends he said it was a big feast and all that, but there was nothing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They never talk about the Lord. They were simply arguing each other, "I think so." (laughs) Prabhupāda: This is their business. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Big, big professor from the university, from Glasgow, so many professors. Big pamphlet came to me. They all send it . . . at least, they send it to this place here. I know from where they get the address or the name all that, and they send, many, many of these new societies. Jayatīrtha: You're becoming famous. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: (laughs) No, no. Guru Mahārāja becomes. Prabhupāda: Keep our standard. Then everyone will give assistance. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We got many times, many very distinguished . . . one time that church vicar has come here to see how things are. Chinese people came, Englishmen. One of the lady, not very far from here, she came one morning, said: "My brother is in the hospital, and he is very sick. I know you are a pious people. Can you pray for him?" And "You never . . . you pray the Lord. You come here. Lord is here." And . . . Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not very far from here. Said: "We hear the noise in the morning, and we have got these feelings that these are very good thing." An English lady. Jayatīrtha: Oh, this was an English person who came. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: English, yes. She is feeling in the heart. Prabhupāda: To jo wo laundry ka business tha. So that laundry business that was there.) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Poocha tha Prabhupad. (I enquired Prabhupāda.) Prabhupāda: Wo makan me abhi koi hai? (Does anyone live in that house?) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Wo laundry ka dekhbal karta hai. (He looks after the laundry.) Prabhupāda: Wo laundry ka businesss achha chal raha hai. (The laundry business is doing well.) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: . . . bus bhagvan ki seva ho jaye to sab accha hai nahi to kuch accha nahi hai. Apna to yehi kaam hai ki. (If we are able to serve the Lord then everything is good, otherwise nothing is good. That is our work if we can do it.) By your grace, Kṛṣṇa is here, and we have no intention to come from there. I had intention that let the children go back home. And we fight, all this stuff. I say, "All right, we must start to fully educate him." Full education is that he become advanced in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: So I said: "We haven't got any education." Under the law of this country, if they have to remain here, they have to go up to sixteen years to the school. And if they're qualified, then they . . . Prabhupāda: No, education is good, but the association is . . . Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No, they don't have any asso . . . they don't go anywhere. They don't eat anywhere. Even so many invitation comes, either they go to the library or they go to the temple or this place. They have no friends, nothing else. No friends. They don't even take the water anywhere, even to my brother's house. They don't take anywhere. Prabhupāda: Your brother is also here? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, he's here now. And he was not very good terms last eight years with me. But when I established this temple, by your grace, Prabhupāda, he has also realized it now that this is good. And my difference with him was that, "You should give up this nonsense of drinking this, all these things." That was only . . . nothing else, about money or anything. I say, "I cannot eat at your place unless you give up these things." I go there, don't eat anything. Prabhupāda: Still, he drinks. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Still he drinks. That is the fact. He doesn't eat meat, of course, but he says . . . he has got business, good business, plenty of money. I am poor materially, but Prabhupāda, my father, spiritual father, is so rich that I am getting money every day. Materially, I am poor, but I am so richer, you are giving so treasure . . . you see in our library there, we have so many nice library of each and every of your book downstairs, and more we read, we say, well plenty money is coming. (break) . . . from the temple. Life Member comes there. We sell the Gujarati magazine. I brought all magazines from Gujarati. Now second issue has not come. The same problem. I don't . . . Prabhupāda: This is . . . have printed. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: But whatever I brought, it went within two, three weeks. Prabhupāda: So Yaśomatīnandana? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Ha uske letter aya hai ki: (Yes, his letter has come that:) "The next issue is in the press, and I'll soon send." And Gopāla dāsa I also written. Because there are many Gujaratis here, and they are becoming Life Members. They have been very much in the temple. Anybody comes here, we send out to the Manor. I say: "Here Kṛṣṇa is . . . here we are. Here we have got everything by Kṛṣṇa's grace, and all the help should go to this center." Prabhupāda: You are preparing something of bitter melon? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Bitter? You mean the . . . Prabhupāda: Karelās , yes. *Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Brinjal also. Brinjal . Brinjal I have got. To Prabhupada wo Bhagavad*-gītā ka ye hai Gopal das ne kaha ki translation karo to 2 to 4 chapter humne kiya hai . . . karte raho. waise accha hai 3 to 4 aadmi ko . . . aisa kiya hai to jo bhi hain devotee hain, professional hain ya educated hain. (So Prabhupada, the Bhagavad-gītā Gopal dasa told me to translate, so I translated 2 to 4 chapters . . . keep doing . . . but it is nice 3 to 4 people . . . we have done like this. So whatever it is they are devotees, they are professionals or they are educated.) (break) Prabhupāda: Theek hai sab Vaikunth chale jayenge. (All right, everyone will go to the Vaikuntha planets.) *Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Hindi me Bhagavad*-gītā chapne chahiye bahut jaldi. (The Bhagavad-gītā should be printed in Hindi as soon as possible.) Harikeśa: How much is left? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No, no, we just starting it. Prabhupāda approved that, starting, starting with two chapters three times. *Prabhupāda: No, you can do one thing. Part by part, you publish in the Bhāgavata*-darśana so that he can . . . everyone can see how it is. Then it will be good. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Oh, yes. No, I showed to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu when he came here. He also came here when he came to London. He came one day here, so I showed all these and I read little bit. Prabhupāda: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa himself is not very expert. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No. So he said that, "Śrīla Prabhupāda is coming now," so if you get a chance . . . Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that whatever you have written, let it be published in the . . . Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, I understand Prabhupāda: . . . so that everyone can see. Then we can understand. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I see. So I will send to India chapter by chapter, and they can publish . . . *Prabhupāda: With a letter that, "Prabhupāda says like this, that you print in the Hindi edition of Bhāgavata*-darśana so that everyone will see, and they will judge how it is done nicely." Harikeśa: Should I make this? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I'll send the first chapter complete. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Duplicate it and keep one copy with me here and one copy send off, and they can publish in the Back to Godhead here. Prabhupāda: The difficulty is that in India, in different parts of India different standard. Somebody says: "This standard is good", somebody says: "This standard is good." Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Well, we are not worried about the criticism. Prabhupāda: Eh? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We are not worried about the criticism, anybody say. What you say, we'll take that one line, the guideline. Prabhupāda: No, I am not authority in Hindi, but this Hindi, different parts of India, a different standard. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, that's true. That is why I had not depend on myself. It going there from the four people different, one after another, and they are qualified Sanskrit and Hindi scholars. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let it be published. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Complete corrections also. It's not going by . . . Prabhupāda: So you can show me some samples which you have completed. Yes, you can show me some. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: (Indian man enters and speaks with Kṣīrodakaśāyī) Śrīla Prabhupāda, devotees are asking can you take prasāda and go to Manor? There's some press coming, but without you they're . . . is it all right? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All right. I will take some time. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Is it all right? Prabhupāda: I ordered . . . Harikeśa: Others, they are also waiting. The Indians, they are . . . Prabhupāda: So let them all take. You can also go down. (break) (Prabhupāda moves outside) Hari-śauri: If you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Harikeśa: Now it's recording. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . word by word. Kīrtimā: And translate into English. Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to do it. Give him the book. Simply book. Why you are taking this? Here? Yes. *Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Ye Bhagavad*-gītā ka tervan adhyay hai prakriti aur anand bhogta ka chetna. (This is the 13th chapter of Bhagavad-gītā , "Nature, the Enjoyer and Consciousness".) Uske pehle ye do slok hain. (There are two verses before that.) Indian man (2): Should I read the translation in Hindi? Prabhupāda: Yes, so that . . . Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Arjuna said: O my dear Kṛṣṇa, I wish to know about prakṛti [nature], puruṣa [the enjoyer], and the field and the knower of the field, and of knowledge and the object of knowledge. The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: This body, O son of Kuntī, is called the field, and one who knows this body is called the knower of the field. Prabhupāda: Thoda explain karo. (Explain a little more.) *Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Arjun jo hai vo bhagavan sri Kṛṣṇa se jijnasa kar rahe hain prakriti ke vishay mein. Hum log sab jante hain ke prakriti kya hai. aap inse poochiye koi kehta hai ki supreme nature hai magar vo ye nahi janta ki supreme nature kiska nature hai. Aap jante hain ki apka prakriti mai prakriti se alag hai. Jahan prakriti hai waha kehte hain supreme nature wo sabse badi cheez hai. To humlog ko poochna chahiye kiska nature, kiski prakriti. Bhagavad*-gītā me phir kehte hain " mayadhyaksena prakritih suyate sa-caracaram " mere nirdeshan me ye prakriti jo hai karya kar rahi hai. To jaha prakriti hai vahan purush bhi hai. (Arjuna is enquiring from Kṛṣṇa about nature. We all know what is material. You ask them, some say it is supreme nature but they don’t know whom this supreme nature belongs to. You know that . . . nature is different from your nature. Where there is nature, it is said that supreme nature is the biggest asset. So we must ask whose nature.) Bhagavan Sri Kṛṣṇa jo hai vo param purush. Is tarah se jo apne sharir ko janta hai sharir ko shetra kaha gaya hai aur sharir ke andar jo atma hai use kshetragnya mana gaya hai. To Arjun jo hai vo bhagavan se jijnasa kar rahe hain ki prakriti kise kehte hain, purush kaun hai ye kshetra kya cheez hai aur kshetragnya kyunki hamare sri Kṛṣṇa bhavanamrit andolan ka moolbhoot siddhant ye hai ki humlog ye sharir nahi hain. Aap coat kameez pehne hue hain hum apse baat kar rahe hain apke kameez ya coat ko hum nahi dekhte usi tarah humlog ka ye jo sri Kṛṣṇa bhavanamrit ka andolan hai humlog ye kehte hain ki sab jeev, manushya hi nahi sab jeev bhagavan ke ansh hain kyunki unme atma hai. Bhagavan ka ek naam paramatma kaha jata hai, param atma vo sab ke atma hain aur humlog unke chote se ansh hain. Is tarah se hum sab chahe vo american ho ya african ho chahe bhartiya ho chahe german ho koi bhi ho usko hum ye prachar karte hain ki tum ye sharir nahi ho bhagavan ke ansh ho bhagavan ke das ho bhagvan ke sevak ho aur tumhara ye kartavya hai ki tum bhagavan ki seva karo. *(In Bhagavad*-gītā it is said " Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥsūyate sa-carācaram ", this nature is working under my direction, so where there is nature there is enjoyer also. Bhagavan Sri Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer. In this way one who knows his body, the body is called a field and the soul, which is inside the body is called the knower of the field. So Arjuna is enquiring from Sri Kṛṣṇa that, "What is nature? Who is enjoyer? What is this field and knower of the field?" Because the basic philosophy of our Kṛṣṇa Consciousness movement is, "We are not this body". You are wearing this coat-shirt and I am talking to you but I am not looking at your dress. Just like that, this Kṛṣṇa Consciousness movement that we have—that all entities, not only humans. All living entities are part and parcel of the Lord because everyone has a soul. One of the names of God is Paramātmā param ātmā—He is seated in everyone’s heart as Paramātmā and we are his tiny parts. In this way all of us—whether he is American, African, Indian, German—whoever it is, we preach to them that, "You are not this body, you are part of God, his servant, his follower and it is your duty that you serve God.") *Haat jo hai wo apke sharir ka ang hai, yadi haat khush hona chahta hai to jab vo bhojan utha ke moo me dalega aur pet me jab bhojan pahunchega to haat apne*-aap khush ho jayega kyunki haat jo hai wo sharir ka hissa hai. To humlog jo hain bhagavan ka hissa hain yadi hum bhagavan ka seva karenge apne-aap hum khush ho jayenge nahi to haat bine pet me bhojan diye khush hona chahta hoon khush nahi ho payega chahe gulab-jamoon rakha ho haat use choota rahe magar haat jab tak moo me nahi dalega tab tak wo khush nahi hoga. Is tarah humlog jo jeev-matr hain jab tak bhagavan ke seva nahi karenge khush nahi ho sakte. Ye machli hai usko aap pani se nikal dijiye. (This hand is part of your body and if your hand wants to be happy. Then when he picks up food and puts it in his mouth, and when the food reaches the stomach, then the hand becomes happy automatically because the hand is part of the body. Similarly we are part of God, and if we serve Him then automatically we become happy. Without offering food to the stomach, the hand will not be happy. If sweet meat balls are kept in front of you, unless you take if and put it into your mouth, the hand will not be happy—we will not be happy. Similarly, we who are living entities — unless we offer service to the Lord, we will not be happy. This fish, if you remove it from the water, it will not be happy.) *Aur chahe bahut bade bhavan me rakh dijiye, usko TV, sofa*-set sab de dijiye, machli mar jayegi pani se bahar nikalte hi. Wohi dasha hamari hai, humlog tadap rahe hain kyunki bhagavan ko bhool gaye hain. To bhagavan ko yaad karne ke liye phir se vapas janm me chale jayenge to khush ho jayenge. (Whether you keep it in a big mansion, give it a TV, give a sofa — give everything — the fish will die as soon as you take it out of water. Similarly, in our condition we are restless because we have forgotten God. So to remember God, we should again take birth — then we will be happy.) Jab arjun ne in sab vishayon ke bare me Sri Kṛṣṇa se poocha, to bhagavan ne kaha ki is sharir ko hum kshetra kehte hain aur jo is sharir ko janta hai use kshetrgna ya knower of the field kaha jata hai. Ye sharir jo hai, ye badh atma jo humlog hain unke liye atma kriya kshetra hai. Atma jaroor hai hum me par atma sharir ke madhyam se kaam karti hai. Atma jab sharir se chali jati hai to hai to hai wohi sharir haat na dekh sakta hai, na aap naak se soongh sakte hain, usi sharir ko jala diya jata hai. Aap jinda sharir ko jalaiye koi soch bhi nahi sakta, lekin atma chali jati hai. To atma jab tak thi uske madhyam se hum dekh rahe hain, bol rahe hain, sun rahe hain. (And then Arjuna enquired about all this from Sri Kṛṣṇa, then God said that we call this body the field. The one who knows this body is called the knower of the field. We have this body, we are conditioned souls. For them the soul is the field of action. We definitely have a soul, but it is working through the medium of this body. When the soul leaves the body then with the same body the hand cannot be seen, the eyes cannot see, the nose cannot smell and we burn the same body. Nobody can think of burning a live body, but when the soul leaves the body — unless the soul was there in the body we could see, speak or hear.) Sri Kṛṣṇa samjha rahe hain ki ye sharir jo hai wo karya kshetra hai, atma to mukhya cheez hai, atma sharir ke madhyam se karya karti hai. Jo humlog ye badh jeev hain . . . (Sri Kṛṣṇa is explaining this body is a field of action, the soul is an important fact — the soul does the work through the body. We are conditioned souls . . .) Prabhupāda: Jaise ye chashma hai ye chashma dekhta nahi aankh dekhta hai chashma ka through se. Agar koi kehta hai ki chashma dekhta hai to vo murkh hai. chashma nahi dekhta hai. Usi prakar atma jo hai use khestrgna kaha jata hai. Jo kshetragna asal cheez hai, yeh kshetra, sharir asal cheez nahi hai, ye madhyam hai. jaise udharan diya gaya to chashma se dekhte hain, chashma nahi dekhta hai, usko samajhna chahiye. (Like these specks are there but the specks do not see, the eyes see through the specks. If someone says that the specks see, then he is a fool. The specks do not see. Similarly, the soul is called the knower of the field — this is the real fact but the body is not real. It is a medium, the example is given that the specks do not see, the eyes see through specks — we must understand this.) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: To is tarah se hum jo baddh jeev jo hai maya ke chakkar me pade hain aur humlog bhautik prakriti ke swami banane ki koshish kar rahe hain. Bhagvan koi nahi hai, hum hain, hum khush ho jaye. Hum apni shakti ke anusar is prakriti pe kabja karne ki koshish karte hain, adhikar jamane ki koshish karte hain chahe wo aadmi bada ho, chota ho, janwar ho sab yahi sochte hain ki main iska malik hoon. (So like this, we who are conditioned souls, we are under the spell of maya . We are trying to lord it over nature, "There is no God, we are God, we must be happy. According to our strength, we try to capture nature, establish our authority over nature." Whether he is a big or small man or animal — everyone thinks that I am the owner of this nature.) Chota sa chuha hai apne samarth ke anusar chura layega, aadmi bada hai wo badi chori karta hai ye sab chori kar rahe hain bhagvan ka bina bhagvan ko malik samjhe. Isopanishad me ek sloka aata hai . . . (Even a small rat, according to its strength, steals something from somewhere—a big man steals big things. Everyone is stealing from God without accepting God as the owner. In the Sri Isopanisad , there is a verse . . .) Prabhupāda: Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Ye bhagavan jo hai unka hi sab kuch hai. To jitna apko jaroorat hai aap le lijiye aur baki doosro ke upayog ke liye chod de. Srila Prabhupad udharan dete hain ki ek bag chawal ka ya gehoon ka raaste me pada ho ek chidiya ayegi do dane kha legi aur chali jayegi. Aadmi ayega pehle pet bhar khayega phir jhola uthakar apne ghar me rakh lega. To isi ke karan pure sansar me log jo kasht paa rahe hain khane ki kami hai, anaz ki kami hai, is liye ki anaz hai par usko log chura rahe hain. Ye hamari sampatti hai bina bhagvan ko jane. To hamara jo sharir hai car ka kriya kshetra hai aur sharir kya hai wo indriyon se bana hua hai. (This God everything belongs to Him. So how much you want you take and leave the rest for the benefit of others. Srila Prabhupāda gives an example that a bag of rice or wheat is lying on the street. One bird comes and eats a few grains and flies away but a man comes and first fills his belly and then carries the bag of wheat home. So as a result people are suffering in this world, shortage of food grains, food. Not because food is not there but people are stealing thinking this belongs to me wihtout knowing god. So our body is action field of car and what is body, it is made up of senses.) *Humlog ki panch gyanendriya hoti hai aur paanch karmendiya hoti hai aur ek man aur ahankar. Isliye humlog bhagvan ki bhakti kyunki humlog maya me hain, apne sharir se shoru kar sakte hain. Abhi hum log apna indriya bhog, kewal apne sukh ke liye karya karna chahte hain. shari wohi hai, indriya wohi, jaise aankh, aap aankh se cinema dekh sakte hain aur aap aankh se bhagvan ki murti Sri Radha*-Gokulanada yahan par hain unke darshan kar sakte hain. (We have 5 knowledge-acquiring senses and 5 working senses and one mind and ego. That is why we cannot do devotion to the Lord because we are in illusion. We can start devotion with our body. Now we want to work only for sense gratification, only for our pleasure. The body is the same, the senses are the same. Like our eyes, we can watch movies with our eyes or see the Deities of Sri Radha-Gokulananda which are here, have His darshan .) Indriya wohi hain yadi aap unko bhagavan ke darshan me lagate hain to bhakti ho jati hai nahi to vishay bhog hai. Usme apko kewal . . . sabhi log aajkal bajaye aatma ko samajhne ke apne sharir ko hi khud mante hain. Agar poochiye aap kaun hain, hum bhartiya hain, pacchees saal ke hain, tees saal ke hain, ye sharir, main kaun hoon. aap jante hain apka sharir chota sa tha, main chota tha ab main bada ho gay, main boodha ho jaoonga, to main wohi hoon, vo chota sharir kahan chala gaya, wo bade sharir me ho gaya, isi tarah se jab aap boodhe ho jate hain to atma wohi rehti hai, atma sharir chod kar ke doosre sharir me chali jati hai. (The senses are the same but if you engage them in the service of the Lord then it becomes devotion otherwise it becomes sense gratification. In it you will . . . everyone nowadays, instead of understanding the soul, think that I am this body. If you ask them, they say I am indian, 25 to 30 years old. Who is there in this body? You know that this body was small—I was young, now I have grown up, now I will become old. So I am the same, where is the small boy, it has grown into a big boy. Similarly when you grow old the soul remains the same. The soul leaves the body and enters another body. *Apka jab kameez purana ho jata hai to aap usko chod kar ke nayi kameez le lete hain. Isi tarah atma ka kabhi naash nahi hota. To wo vyakti jo apne ko sharir na mane par atma mane use kshetragnya kehte he knower of the field. Ye ab koi bahut mushkil nahi hai atma me aur sharir me antar samajhna. Srila Prabhupad ne wohi udharan diya jo maine kuch der pehle kaha, humlog bacche the boodha ho gaya, sharir badal raha hai 24 ghante. Vigyan ke anusar bhi apke sharir me kriyayen*-pratikriyayen ho rahin hain, 24 ghante apka sharir badal raha hai, har shan, har pratipal magar atma apki wohi hai. sharir me baithi hui atma jo ki ek vyakti hai wo ek hai, deh badal raha hai. (When your shirt becomes old then you give it up and buy a new shirt. Similarly the soul is never destroyed. So that person who does not think that he is this body but is spirit soul, is called knower of the field. So now it is not difficult to understand the difference between body and soul. Srila Prabhupāda has given the same example which i mentioned before. We were children, then became old. The body is continuously undergoing changes every 24 hours. According to science also, action—reactions are going on in your body, in 24 hours your body is changing, every minute, every second but sould is the same, the soul inside the body which is our identity, body is changing. Yehi antar hai jo deh ke karya ko janta hai aur jo vastvik roop se atma ka Swaroop pehchanta hai usko kshetragya kehte hain. Iccha se hum baddh jeev samajh sakte hain ki hum is sharir se alag hain. Ek chota sa udharan aur de sakte hain; *aap kehte hain mera kaan, mera nak, mera aankh, aap ye bahi kehte mai aankh, mai kaan, iska matlab ki apka kaan apse alag hai. To iska matlab hua ki apka sharir atma se alag hai. Bhagavad*-gītā ke doosre adhyay ka tehravan slok " dehino asmin yatha dehi kaumaram yauvanam zara, tatha dehantram prapatir dhiras tatra na muhyati " jis tarah se dehi is deh me baitha hua hai. Bacche se javaan hota hai phir boodha isi tarah se mrtyu ke samay atma ek sharir ko chod ke doosre sharir me chali jati hai. (This is the difference of one who knows the work of the body and one who actually recognises the existence of the soul, he is known as knower of the field. By our desire, we conditioned souls can understand that we are different from the body. One more example we can give; *you say my ear, my nose, my eyes. You don't say I eyes, I nose, I hand. This means that your eyes are different from you. So this means that your body is sepearte from the soul. In the 13 verse of the 2 chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā " dehino asmin yatha dehi kaumaram yauvanam zara, tatha dehantram prapatir dhiras tatra na muhyati ". Like how the resident is sitting inside the body, from child to youth to old man, the soul leaves the body and enters into another body.) *To jo dhir log hain, gyani log hain, woh ye soch kar dukh nahi karte, log rote hain 'are wo mar gaya'. Kaun mar gaya jisko aap apna samjhte the wo to leta hua hai aur cheez chali gayi uska naash nahi hota hai. Bhagavad*-gītā me adhyay do me, jo ki Gītā ka sar hai usme ye samajhaya gaya hai. Is prakar se jab vyakti ye janta hai uska sharir haemsha badal raha hai wo ye samajhta hai wo kshetragy hai. Kabhi-kabhi humlog samajhte hain ke hum bahut kush hain, main pagal hoon, main aurat hoon, mai kutta hoon, billi hoon to ye main jo hai wo kshetragya hai, kutta billi aurat ye sab sharir aur mai jo atma, jo bhagavan ka ansh hai usko humlog kshetragya kehte hain. (So those who are 'dhira', educated, they are not sad when they think about this. People cry, "Oh, that person died." Who died? The one who you considered your own is lying here and the one that left the body is not perishable. In Bhagavad-gītā in chapter 2, which is the essence of the Gītā , this has been explained. In this way when a peprson knows that his body is ever—changing, he is called a knower of the field. Sometimes we feel that we are very happy, I'm mad, I'm woman, I'm dog, I'm cat—so I'm only knower of the field. The dog, cat—others are all bodies and I'm the soul, part and parcel of God, is the knower of the field.) Prabhupāda: *Kṛṣṇa has spoken about the kṣetrajña . Kṣetrajña means the knower of the body, as He has already explained that, "I know that this is my finger." I never say: "I finger." So this body is kṣetrajña , the field of activities, and the soul is the proprietor or worker within the body. That is called kṣetrajña . This is already explained. He tried to explain . . . because there are many ladies, so he tried to explain in Hindi. So here in the next verse Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi : "I am also kṣetrajña . I am also one of the knower of the body." So what is the difference between the one kṣetrajña already explained, the soul, and this kṣetrajña , Kṛṣṇa? What is the difference between the two? That is explained here. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am also kṣetrajña ." Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata : "But the distinction is that the individual soul is situated in that particular body, but I am situated in every body, all-pervading." Sometimes they commit mistake that ātmā and Paramātmā, they are the same, but that is not the fact. Here Kṛṣṇa explains very distinctly that, "I am also ātmā , but I am Paramātmā." That is the distinction between God and us. *When Arjuna understood Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Paraṁ brahma. They are anxious to realize Brahman, that I . . . ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi does not mean that, "I am Paraṁ Brahman." I am individual part and parcel of Brahman. Similarly, ātmā , Paramātmā; īśvara , Parameśvara. We should understand this distinction between ātmā , Paramātmā; *Brahman, Para*-brahman; īśvara , Parameśvara. So in the Vedic literature it is said, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1). Īśvara. Īśvara means controller. Every one of us, we are controller, either I control over my family or in my office or in my country. In this way everyone is a controller. I may be a controller. Not may be; in my limited jurisdiction I am also controller. You are also controller. So I may be a little greater controller, you may be smaller controller and somebody may be greater than me. So in this way, if you study controllers, different types of controller, you'll find there is junior and senior. The same person is senior controller in the family, but in the office he's the junior controller. The same person is junior and senior at the same time. Somewhere he is junior, somewhere he is senior. In this way, if you study all different types of controller, you'll see there is duality of controls. But when you approach somebody that He's simply controller—He's not by controlled by others—that is Kṛṣṇa. This is analytical study of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. *So they have studied, all these Vedic scholars, especially Lord Brahmā. This is the statement of Lord Brahmā. Not only Lord Brahmā—Vyāsadeva, Nārada and recently big, big ācāryas , Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, even Śaṅkarācārya, and latest, five hundred years ago, Lord Caitanya—everyone has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme controller. And in the dictionary you'll find what is religion. Religion means to accept a supreme controller. That is religion. So in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam also it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Dharma means the controlling laws given by God. That is called dharma . So real dharma . . . from all Vedic scriptures, from the version of all authorities, it is confirmed that īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1): "Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Every religion has conception of God, but no religious system in this world has got any clear conception of God. But in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is not actually a so*-called religious movement, but it is an educational movement to give information to the human society about God that, "Here is God." You are searching after God, and somebody, in disappointment, saying that, "God is dead." God is neither dead, nor it is fictitious, but it is factual, and here is this God, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). This is the verdict of the Vedic literature. There are may be many other gods. They are expansion of the original Personality of Godhead. If anyone is interested to study the science of God, you'll find it in the Vedic literature, how Kṛṣṇa expands by His plenary portion in different names of God. It is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (BS 5.33). That Absolute Truth is advaita , without any duality; acyuta , infallible. Advaita, acyuta, anādi . Everything has got its beginning, anything you . . . that is our material conception, because we have got the experience—anything we take, it has got a beginning. But Kṛṣṇa, He is described, advaita, acyuta, anādi: "He has no beginning." And in another place it is also said: Kāraṇam is the beginning. So just like my father is the cause of my personality; father, his father is the cause of his personality; *in this way you try to find out the cause of the cause. You'll find Kṛṣṇa as the cause of all causes. Sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam . Everything must be caused by something. Cause and effect. So the śāstra gives the verdict that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes. *So this institution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we have started. Now we have opened this center. I am very glad that you are coming here, but study the science of Kṛṣṇa. Don't remain blind. The science of Kṛṣṇa means science of God. The human life is meant for understanding the science of God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This is the Vedānta*-sūtra . "This human form of life is meant for inquiring about the Absolute Truth—Brahman." That Brahman, Para-brahman, is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, when Arjuna studied Bhagavad-gītā , his conclusion was . . . he addressed immediately, Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Bhavān: "Yourself . . ." So don't waste your time even by a minute. Try to understand the science of Kṛṣṇa. That is the only business. Other business, they are subsidiary. They are not very important business. Why Kṛṣṇa understanding is important business? Because it will give you liberation from this material conditional life. We are foolishly thinking we are very independent, we can do whatever we like. But that is not the fact. The fact is we are completely dependent on the laws of material nature. Even if you defy a little bit, immediately you'll be punished. That is the strict laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). *So we do not understand. There is no education throughout the whole world how we are being controlled by the material nature and why we are being controlled. Why we are put into this position of being controlled? These questions should be raised. That is human life. Otherwise it is animal life. The cats and dogs, they cannot inquire, "Why I am being controlled?" But they agree to be controlled. But human life there is struggle. They are called struggle for existence. They are trying to overcome the control of material nature by so*-called scientific method, but that is not the way. You cannot do that. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. Just like their so-called scientific way they are trying to go to the moon planet or Mars planet. Why they are trying to go? Because they are controlled. They have got their flying machine. They can to go any planet, but they cannot, because they are being controlled. So we should come to our senses that we cannot bring the laws of material nature under our control. We are already under the control of the laws of material nature, and that is our conditional life. Actually, we require freedom from conditional life, but that freedom can be achieved when we surrender to Kṛṣṇa. If you actually want to be . . . not to be controlled by the laws of material nature, that you can do. That is possible. And that is possible simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa. *So we are presenting this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not a manufactured thing. We are quoting from Bhagavad*-gītā the same thing. We are not presenting something manufactured. There is no need, because things in perfection is already there in the Bhagavad-gītā . There is no need of manufacturing by fools and rascals. There is no need. Everything is there in perfection. Simply we have to accept it and apply it in practical life. Then our life will be successful. Simply we have to understand it. Kṛṣṇa says that janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). Simply to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is . . . then jānāti tattvataḥ , anyone who is able to understand Kṛṣṇa in truth, then what is the result? The result is tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9): "Such person, after giving up this body, he does not accept another material body." At the present moment we are giving up one material body and accepting another material body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). This is our conditional life, but we are kept in such dense darkness of knowledge that we are thinking that, "We are free. We can do whatever we like." This is very dangerous civilization—no knowledge of the spiritual life, no knowledge how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another, no knowledge what is the future, no knowledge what is the goal of life. Simply like cats and dogs you dance, eat, drink, be merry and die, that's all. This is not good life. You must be very serious, especially those who are Indians. They should take it very seriously. Because this Kṛṣṇa culture, Bhagavad-gītā , was spoken in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra in India, and if we Indians, we do not take full advantage of this great transcendental knowledge, then you are committing suicide. *So my request is, all the Indians who are here in this foreign country, keep your own original culture. Don't forget. Don't be bewildered. Be in your position. Try to under . . . it is very easy. Bhagavad*-gītā is not at all difficult to understand, and we have tried to explain as easy as possible, not that we have deviated from the original verse, just like others do it. We do not do that; *there is no need. That is another blunder. We keep Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and we still try to explain it. So I am very glad that you are all coming regularly, but take it. At least one day, this Sunday, you devote, seriously studying Bhagavad-gītā , and discuss amongst you whenever there is any doubt. There cannot be any doubt. The Bhagavad-gītā verses are so plainly explained, and . . . just like here is one verse we are trying to read, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "My dear Arjuna . . ." Arjuna is addressed as Bhārata. Because he belongs to the dynasty of Bharata, sometimes he's addressed as Bhārata. So, very easy that, "I am also one of the souls. There are two souls. One, you are, and another, I am. So what is the difference between you and Me? That you know simply everything—not everything, but to some extent—about your body, but I know everything of everyone's body." That is the difference. I know the pleasure and pains of my body, you know the pleasure and pains of your body, but Kṛṣṇa knows the pleasure and pains of your body and pleasure and pains of my body. That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and ourself. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is situated . . . Kṛṣṇa is not stereotyped in one place. Kṛṣṇa, He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana: goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ (BS 5.37). That is Kṛṣṇa. I am sitting here; *you are sitting here. I am not in my apartment, but Kṛṣṇa, although He is sitting in this temple, He is present everywhere: aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35). *In this way we have to study Kṛṣṇa very scientifically, and the books are there, we have tried to explain as far as possible. Take advantage of this institution. Don't waste a moment of your life. Take it very seriously. Āyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi na labhyaḥ svarṇa*-koṭibhiḥ (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). This seriousness . . . especially those who are educated, they should take serious consideration of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Try to understand each and every verse of Bhagavad-gītā , especially, and if possible Bhāgavatam . There are so many books. We have got program to publish at least eighty-four books like this, four hundred pages each. So we have already published fifty-four books. So if you want to understand Kṛṣṇa through science and philosophy, read these books. Otherwise—very easy method—come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. There is no difficulty. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya! (end) Conversation A -- July 26, 1976, London (Conversation with George Harrison) George Harrison: How are you feeling? *Prabhupāda: I have old man's disease, cough and cold, so coughing. But still, work is going on, and I shall complete eighty years this month. September, eighty*-one. So now, due to age, it is becoming little difficult. George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Anyway, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. So how are you? George Harrison: Quite good. Prabhupāda: Chanting is going on? George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Thank you. That is our life and soul. Gṛhe vā vanete thāke, 'hā gaurāṅga' bole ḍāke. Wherever you live, it doesn't matter—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is our only support. (aside) So bring food here. Jayatīrtha: We should . . . have the lunch here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bring. George Harrison: All the devotees are looking really good. Prabhupāda: Eh? George Harrison: The devotees are looking great. Strong. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Phalena paricīyate. By the result, one has to study. Yesterday, one devotee's father and mother came, Hari-śauri. She and his father were very pleased to see him healthy, bright. Mukunda: They hadn't seen him for six years. Prabhupāda: Six years, yes. So we are inviting everyone, "Come here. Such a nice house given by George. (laughs) You live here comfortably, eat nicely, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." We don't want any factory work. George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Simply kartāla and mṛdaṅga . Still, people do not come. They'll prefer to go the factory, whole day work in the hell. (laughs) They prefer. George Harrison: I suppose some day the whole of the world will just be chanting in the country. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. But if some of the leading men, they take it seriously, then others will follow. Just like in our book, your signature is there, "Oh, George Harrison. Yes." They take it, without any consideration, *Kṛṣṇa Book* . Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ ( BG 3.21). If the leading man does something, then his followers also do. This is the way. So if some of the leading men of the world, they take this movement seriously, then people will be happy. There's no doubt about it. You have come alone, without any associate? George Harrison: Just on my own. Prabhupāda: That's all right. George Harrison: It took me a while to find it. They're always building new roads everywhere and change the whole countryside. So I got a little lost. Prabhupāda: You came here twice, right? George Harrison: Yes, I've been here three times. Where will you be in India when you go back to India? Prabhupāda: Most probably in Bombay. George Harrison: Bombay. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have been in my Bombay? George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay. Yes, Bombay and Vṛndāvana when they were just building. George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. You have been in my Bombay? George Harrison : Yes, Bombay and Vṛndāvana when they were just building. Prabhupāda: Oh, Vṛndāvana, if you come there, stay for some time. George Harrison: Yes, well, ah, this December . . . Prabhupāda: We have got very nice houses, both in Bombay and Vṛndāvana. And Māyāpur also. Wherever you like. You will not be very uncomfortable. George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay for a wedding. Some friends are getting married. Prabhupāda: When? George Harrison: December the fifth, I think. Prabhupāda: Very nice season in Bombay. Best time. George Harrison: You know, I think you met Lakshmi Shankar, this lady singer? Her daughter, who is also a singer, Viji, Viji Shri Shankar, and she's marrying a South Indian violin player, L. Shankar. Prabhupāda: He's also Shankar? George Harrison: Well, he's called L. Shankar. You know that South India they have a funny way around them. They have like a surname. He's just called L. Shankar. His brother is called L. Subhramanyam. Prabhupāda: Bring small tables to George. George Harrison: (indistinct comments about names) So you never know what the other name is. Gurudāsa: George says he wants to spend some time in Vṛndāvana. *George Harrison: I was only there for about thirty*-six hours last time. Prabhupāda: We have got now very good centers. Another gentleman, he's offering us a very good place at Mahābaleśvara. That's one of the famous hillier stations. A very nice climate. So you can come and stay there. We have got now many good centers. George Harrison: Yes. I'll come and see if you're in Bombay, because I'll be near where the temple is. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bombay is just like garden. Yes. As good as your place here. No. Not so big. It is seventeen acres, and Bombay is five. ( prasādam being served) So, just go on. Give him whatever you have got, give. But don't give much. When he wants something more . . . "Waste not, want not." Give more. That preparation, you can give more. (laughter) George Harrison: Is that cauliflower? Prabhupāda: No. That is called . . . (indistinct) . . . you can bring it, prasāda . George Harrison: I'll just wash my hands. Prabhupāda: You can wash here. The sink is there. Here is also water. So you can put the bowls outside, yes, so that there will be sufficient place. Our Indian system is like that. That's all right. You sit down. You also sit down. Mukunda: You get a towel? George Harrison: Yes, thanks. Prabhupāda: Give him. George Harrison: I see you've done new books. You've been so busy, this is, so many books. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are already fifty*-four, and another at least thirty books I have to finish before my death. (laughs) That I am . . . (aside) Give him purī . Where is Ravi Shankar? George Harrison: He's in . . . I think he's in New York. He'll be here the first of August, and then I think he's . . . Prabhupāda: He has got his house there? In New York? George Harrison: No, just a house in Benares. Benares. He doesn't have anything. He just stays in hotels. Prabhupāda: I thought in Washington somebody told me that George Washing . . . George Harrison has got his house here. George Harrison: Yes, he had a little house here, but he . . . Prabhupāda: No, you have got your house in Washington? George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: No. (referring to prasādam ) Now we can begin. George Harrison: Okay, Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Gurudāsa: Nimbu*-pāni ? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. You give him two more samosās . He likes it. So now you can begin also. Yes. (background comments while prasādam served) All the boys and girls are so nicely qualified for Kṛṣṇa's service. George Harrison: They are looking better and better all the time. It's nice for me to see Gurudāsa. He's turning into a mountain. (laughter) Prabhupāda: His wife has also sannyāsī . . . (indistinct) . . . renounced. Have you seen her latest? George Harrison: No. *Prabhupāda: She has cut hair and white dress, living alone in the temple. Vairagya*-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam (CC Madhya 6.254). This bhakti-yoga means vairagya-vidyā , means detachment. That is the perfection of life. If we remain attached, that is conditional. Māyā has made so many things attractive so that we have to remain attached, and to come out of this attachment is called bhakti . (aside) So one man, you can sit down, you can eat. Pradyumna, you can eat. Pradyumna: I've taken some milk before, so . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, you don't require. Now you can eat, go on. Prasāda prapti mātrena. Our Jayatīrtha Prabhu is good manager. Management, looking after. Yes, he's very good manager, experienced. George Harrison: Hmm? Prabhupāda: He's experienced manager. Jayatīrtha: Not very good managing this place now. George Harrison: Well, it seems okay. Seems to be ticking over pretty good, peacefully. Prabhupāda: He was also managing Los Angeles. Yes. Now we have brought him here to see things nicely managed. George Harrison: It feels good, nice vibrations. Prabhupāda: Yes. One thing, Jayatīrtha, why don't you sprinkle this water in this ground? Jayatīrtha: Well, we do sprinkle it. Prabhupāda: Just have an ordinary pumping, and then it will be green. Jayatīrtha: There's a kind of a limit on the amount of water pressure you can get these days. Prabhupāda: Limit? George Harrison: It's been a drought in England. There's no . . . very little water. Prabhupāda: It is very dangerous. Everything is now yellow. Jayatīrtha: It's greener here than most places around, but . . . George Harrison: Everything's so dry this year, lot of trees and things dying without water. *Prabhupāda: That will be the punishment for this age. It is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . There will be scarcity of rain, and there will be scarcity of food, and heavy taxation by government. And people will become mad on account of these three things. Anāvṛṣṭi, durbhikṣa, kara-pīḍitāḥ (SB 12.2.9). George Harrison: It's getting dryer in England each year. It's like . . . it's probably going to end up as a desert in another hundred years. Prabhupāda: They expect like that? George Harrison: Well, I don't know. I think the whole world's changing. Somebody said it's the pollution, leave such . . . there's so much of the oceans now with polluted and with oil on the top, there's not so much evaporation anymore. Prabhupāda: Not in the ocean. It is the sinful activities of the populace. That is real problem. They are all engaged in sinful activities. Especially this innocent animal killing. These are the all reactions. Gurudāsa: In New York they had one island of refuse floated in to shore. Prabhupāda: Give him more samosās . Gurudāsa: For years they were building up island of refuse, and it floated in, and now no one can go to the beaches. Prabhupāda: Samosā . Where is samosā ? There is only one more left? George Harrison: I'm okay, actually. Devotee (2): There is sour cream. George Harrison: I've got plenty, thanks. Prabhupāda: Prasāda , we can eat up to the neck. (laughter) There is no harm. You'll never get indigestion. You have got some fruits? George Harrison: Yes. Mukunda: There's a very nice mango preparation there. Did you taste? George Harrison: Which one? Mukunda: The chilled mango. Looks like . . . (indistinct) George Harrison: Oh, this one. Prabhupāda: One German girl has prepared. We are introducing restaurant like this, and people are liking very much. We have got one restaurant in Hawaii, another restaurant we are organizing in Boston. That is being directly done by Alfred. You have met Alfred? Gurudāsa: Alfred Ford, the grandson of Henry Ford. George Harrison: No, I've never met him. *Prabhupāda: Oh. He is also very nice boy. Of course, younger than you. He's only twenty*-four years. What is your age now? *George Harrison: Thirty*-three. *Prabhupāda: Thirty*-three. That boy is also very nice young boy. Give Jayatīrtha? Huh? No? George Harrison: Do you feed everybody who comes Sunday? Gurudāsa: Hundreds. Prabhupāda: Sunday we have about five hundred to one thousand. Yes. George Harrison: So they must cook for days to feed all those people. Gurudāsa: No, day before, night before. George Harrison: Do they bring food as well? Gurudāsa: They bring grains or something like that, in bulk. *Prabhupāda: We had very gorgeous Ratha*-yātrā ceremony in New York last Sunday. George Harrison: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Sunday, eighteenth. Pusta Kṛṣṇa: A week ago yesterday. Gurudāsa: Last Sunday. Prabhupāda: Give . . . Gurudāsa: We fed about ten thousand that day. Prabhupāda: Cauliflower. Take little. George Harrison: I can't finish. (laughter) I'm trying to finish one so I can start on the next. I was sick also, lately. I had something, I went yellow. I had jaundice. Prabhupāda: Jaundice? George Harrison: Hmm. I don't know why. Just had food poisoning or something, and it affected my liver. Prabhupāda: Who cooks for you? George Harrison: Sometimes me, sometimes, ah . . . I don't know, I think we'd had some Chinese food. Prabhupāda: Oh, you should not take. George Harrison: But I was working as well, so I, you know, I think I was pretty tired. Prabhupāda: Better you cook simple food yourself and take it. George Harrison: The only thing I could eat was papaya. Prabhupāda: Papaya is very good, yes. (to prasādam servers) Give him, give him, give him. George Harrison: I still have . . . Prabhupāda: No, that is the different. Oh, all right. We are just attempting a big planetarium in Māyāpur. We have asked government to acquire land, 350 acres. That is negotiation are going on. We shall give a Vedic planetarium. George Harrison: Is that the one you were talking about? With all the . . . Prabhupāda: In the Fifth Canto. Gurudāsa: The planetarium will be 350 feet high and show the cosmology of the spiritual world and the material world. Prabhupāda: The construction will be like your Washington Capitol, like that. George Harrison: A big dome. Prabhupāda: Yes. Estimated eight crores of rupees. (pause) Prabhupāda: Is there any dahī preparation? Devotee (2): There's only one. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. Now, there is fruit. You . . . George Harrison: Very good. Fantastic. Hari-śauri: What would you like? Something of everything? Prabhupāda: Two pieces . . . George Harrison: Maybe just a little bit of, but now I'm not . . . thanks. That's fine. No, okay. Thanks, fine. That's enough, that's fine. Prabhupāda: That watermelon, you can give more. It is water. George Harrison: Now let me finish all of this. Prabhupāda: This is that mango preparation. George Harrison: Okay. Devotee (2): It's coming. Prabhupāda: You like that preparation? Yes. George Harrison: We used to have this with milk at Rishikesh. Every day they'd leave outside of the door. It's good. (pause) George Harrison: Do you, Mukunda, do you break even with all the costs, running cost? Do you do okay with all this food and fruit and stuff? Mukunda: Oh, yes. More than even. We have about thirteen hundred Life Members in the Indian community. And then when they come on the weekends they bring food, they bring these hundred pound donations, put money in the box. George Harrison: At one time you just had the Godhead and incense. Mukunda: Yes, now it's all public support. Jayatīrtha: We don't sell incense anymore. Mukunda: And the books we just sell for very little; we hardly make any money on them at all. Prabhupāda: Are you reading sometimes my books? Which one? George Harrison: Mainly Kṛṣṇa . Prabhupāda: That is the main book. (laughs) George Harrison: Mukunda gave me the new books, but there's so much in . . . ah, there's just so much to read. Prabhupāda: Philosophy. George Harrison: I don't know how anybody could have written it, it's difficult enough to read all that amount. Prabhupāda: Sometimes they are surprised how one man can write so many books, but it is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise is not possible. Humanly it is not possible. *Mukunda: That one series of books I brought you, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hari-śauri? There is no sweet melon. Mukunda: And every single word is written by hand, five hundred years ago. Prabhupāda: No sweet melon? (background comments about melon) You are in the same house? Hmm? George Harrison: Henley. Prabhupāda: Henley, yes. Very nice house. George Harrison: Hmm, very nice. I work from the house. I have a studio, recording studio in the house. So I don't have to go to London anymore. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have all arrangement there. That's very nice. How many acres? *George Harrison: It's about thirty*-five. Prabhupāda: Oh, very good area. Devotee (2): Did you get that other land? Mukunda: Yes, only five hundred pounds. Devotee (2): Really? Amazing. George Harrison: Five hundred pounds! Mukunda: Yes, for four acres. George Harrison: That's quite cheap. Mukunda: Yes, we were really surprised. But if it hadn't been for that, we'd have had no cow pasture. Cows are out there. Prabhupāda: We have got one cow—many cows in Philadelphia—the milk bags, she gives hundred and two pounds daily. George Harrison: Of milk? Who owns this? Who milks the cows? Gurudāsa: Some of the devotees. Prabhupāda: We have got tanks for storing milk. Tanks. George Harrison: Yes? *Prabhupāda: Yes. All up*-to-date refrigerator and everything. That extra milk they are selling. Similarly, in New Vrindavan we are getting one thousand pounds milk daily. One thousand pounds. Mukunda: That's our place in Virginia. George Harrison: How many cows? Must be hundreds of them. Prabhupāda: But the Philadelphia is more organized. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Through the nozzles, milk carrying, always hot water is washing it. Jayatīrtha: There's much better facility in that Pennsylvania place. New Vrindavan's kind of a . . . they built up from scratch by themselves. Gurudāsa: Rustic. Jayatīrtha: Yes, rustic is the word. (laughter) Pennsylvania, they bought this fabulous farm all made up. Prabhupāda: Pradyumna, give him little, this one here. George Harrison: Oh, no, no. Please, no more. I'm really full. I won't have to eat for a few days. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Sweets. George Harrison: Very well. Prabhupāda: Sweet will help you digest. Don't give three—at least four. George Harrison: I won't be able to eat much more. Prabhupāda: Three is given to the enemy. According to our Indian system, if you give somebody three, that means he is enemy. George Harrison: Oh, really? I always liked the number three. Prabhupāda: (laughs) You must give at least four. George Harrison: I like three, five, seven, nine. Those numbers. Prabhupāda: Tri-śatru What are the three enemies? Kāma, krodha . . . Pradyumna: Lobha . Gurudāsa: Lust, anger, greed. Three enemies Prabhupāda: Three enemies—lusty desire, anger and greediness. George Harrison: Yes. But there's a lot of nice threes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. Three. Three worlds: Svarga, Martya, Pātāla. Trinity. These are nice things. *George Harrison: Tri*-guṇa. *Prabhupāda: Tri*-guṇa , yes. Jayatīrtha: The three modes, they're not so nice. George Harrison: Well, they're all necessary. Jayatīrtha: Yes. George Harrison: I met, I think, one of your master's other devotees. I forget his name. Gosvāmī, big, in Vṛndāvana. Big, tall, with a staff, bald hair. Said you knew his name? Gurudāsa: Puruṣottama? George Harrison: Puruṣottama? Yes. Mukunda: In Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: He's not a sannyāsī . George Harrison: Pardon? Prabhupāda: He's not sannyāsī . George Harrison: Oh, well, the one I met had a staff. Maybe it was a different one. Gurudāsa: Mādhava Mahārāja maybe. Prabhupāda: Maybe Mādhava Mahārāja. Jayatīrtha: He's big. Prabhupāda: He's my Godbrother. George Harrison: Yes, but he didn't talk English. But all the people I was with said he spoke very good Sanskrit, had a good understanding of Sanskrit. But I couldn't understand anything that he . . . you know . . . I just watched him. Pradyumna: I think Puruṣottama Gosāi. Prabhupāda: He's talking of Puruṣottama. Pradyumna: Gosāi. Prabhupāda: He's blackish? George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: Not fair complexion. Puruṣottama. George Harrison: I think he was fair, but he was very tall, very big, and you know, like this, huge size. Well, he had a place where I stayed the night. Pradyumna: That's his place, Puruṣottama Gosāi. Gurudāsa: He's not a sannyāsī . Prabhupāda: He's not sannyāsī , he is householder. Jayatīrtha: He's married man. George Harrison: Yes, he had . . . his son lived there. Jayatīrtha: Yes. George Harrison: But maybe he's taken, I don't know. I thought he had a daṇḍa , one of those staffs. I saw the little temple in the garden, had the Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, where they stay in bed. It's like a bed like this. You know the one? Pradyumna: Nidhuvana Mandir. Prabhupāda: Nidhuvana. Gurudāsa: Nidhuvana Mandir. George Harrison: I saw that, where He's been out all night so He doesn't get up until ten o'clock in the morning. Prabhupāda: You have not seen our temple since it is inaugurated? No. George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: This time you come. Many thousand people come to see Deity. George Harrison: I saw the photograph, looks really nice. It's big. Gurudāsa: Now they say it's the most beautiful modern temple in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: You have seen our . . . there is any film of the temple? Gurudāsa: No, but there's photographs. Jayatīrtha: We have a nice photograph in the reception room downstairs. George Harrison: Actually it was half built. Gurudāsa: Yes. Even the building you went into, there's more, up, the roof. Prabhupāda: That courtyard is very beautiful. There is a tāmala tree. That is a very valuable tree. The Bisanchand Seth asked me to cut. Gurudāsa: Yes, I remember. Prabhupāda: What a nonsense, such a . . . Gurudāsa: I remember that. Prabhupāda: He has no idea. Now, on account of that tree, it looks so beautiful. Hari-śauri: Yes. It's very wonderful. The whole tree has flourished since the temple began. Gurudāsa: We planned the whole temple around that tree. The whole plans. George Harrison: It's a big old tree? Pradyumna: Tree's just in the courtyard of the temple, so we left it there. Gurudāsa: Tāmala tree is the same color as Kṛṣṇa, śyāma . Like a fresh rain cloud color. So when Rādhārāṇī sees the tree, She thinks of Kṛṣṇa. So when we see the tree we think of Kṛṣṇa. And Śrīla Prabhupāda sits underneath the tree and watches. Prabhupāda: Rādhārāṇī in separation was embracing that tree, tāmala tree. And they say that in Vṛndāvana, only there are four tāmala trees left. Gurudāsa: Yes, they've said four or six. Very few. George Harrison: Is this tree still living? Devotees: Yes, it's alive. George Harrison: (finishes prasādam ) My compliments to the chef. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is this water? Hari-śauri: Lemonade. Prabhupāda: Is there any more? Hari-śauri: I just took it out. I can get some. Prabhupāda: Bring little. George Harrison: I'll wash my hands. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: So I am very much pleased that you take so much trouble to come here. George Harrison: It's my pleasure. Prabhupāda: (to Hari-śauri) Yes, give me little for drinking. You want little more? George Harrison: Are you ever going to stop traveling? Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. I don't want, personally, but if Kṛṣṇa wants, that is everything. We have got now hundred and two centers, different parts of the world. George Harrison: Still six more to go. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) We have got a very nice house in Detroit. If you sometimes go there you'll see. George Harrison: Whereabouts? Prabhupāda: Detroit. George Harrison: Ah, Detroit. They need one there. Crazy place. Jayatīrtha: Heavy place. Prabhupāda: That house was constructed fifty years ago at the cost of six million dollar, and we have got it very cheap. Three hundred thousand dollars. George Harrison: Was it a big house? Hari-śauri: A very big mansion on the riverside. George Harrison: Colonial house? Prabhupāda: Not as big—four acres of land—but the building is very costly. One room will cost now three hundred thousand dollars. So nicely made. Hari-śauri: They estimated it would cost about fifteen million to build such a house now. George Harrison: Yes, they probably wouldn't even bother or be able to, at least. Is it an old house? Hari-śauri: Fifty years old. It's very solid though, very good condition as well. Prabhupāda: And on the house on bottom, there is river. Not directly, but an offshoot of river. People come, rowing. A very nice situation. And because it is black quarter, nobody was purchasing. So I said that "For us, what is black and white? Purchase it." So we got very cheap. At that time I paid them hundred and fifty thousand, and . . . (indistinct) . . . Elizabeth. We purchased. George Harrison: Did they have a temple in Hamburg? In Hamburg. I was there once, but they just had a little tiny house, and they were trying to get another. Prabhupāda: Hamburg, I think closed? Jayatīrtha: They have a place in Frankfurt, where the devotees are . . . just outside of Frankfurt. George Harrison: So they haven't got a place in Hamburg. Jayatīrtha: No, it's a heavy city. George Harrison: I was there one year when they were having fights. It's . . . Jayatīrtha: Rockers. It's a heavy place. Mukunda: Rockers. George Harrison: It is full of gangs. Prabhupāda: And we have got another palace . . . what is that village? Jayatīrtha: South of Paris? That one? Prabhupāda: No, France. Jayatīrtha: Yes, south of Paris. It's near a place called Valencay. Very nice place. Pradyumna: French chateau. Mukunda: It's on about 250 acres. George Harrison: Really? Mukunda: Huge fields, beautiful place. I'll show you a picture of it. George Harrison: Yes. So that was the goal, isn't it? One hundred and eight temples. Jayatīrtha: Should be able to do it this year, I think. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: We should have a hundred and eight this year, I think. Hari-śauri: Centers. One hundred and eight centers. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: Temples and farms. Prabhupāda: But we want worker. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is giving us so many centers. Yes. In India I can get so many places, but how to manage? Simply taking from persons, and if I cannot manage nicely, that does not look well. Therefore I say first of all get men, then take donation, there is no harm. How many devotees were living here? Jayatīrtha: There's about a hundred, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, then it is all right. And if there was no devotees, ten devotees, then how could we manage? Jayatīrtha: We have about fifteen devotees that work full time on the grounds. Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty sprinkling water that quarter? It is costly? Jayatīrtha: We'll try to sprinkle more, but there's a lack of water pressure. Prabhupāda: No, pressure, by pump. George Harrison: That's what we have. We had a little Honda pump, but you had to start it off. It's a gasoline engine, I think. And put one pipe into the lake and just pump out of the lake, and then you have a sprinkler on the other side. Makes a noise, though, that's the only thing. Makes a noise and gives off an exhaust. Prabhupāda: A pump for, say, one hour, two hour. George Harrison: You could use the water out of the lake, then nobody could really complain about that. Jayatīrtha: That's how we'd have to do it, I think. George Harrison: That probably wouldn't be enough . . . it wouldn't take the level down too much. How do you fill that up? Mukunda: That's a natural watershed. This is the lowest place in the area in about four miles every direction. So we have all those underground water tables feeding it. Prabhupāda: If there is rain then there is no scarcity of water. The water comes here. Yes. George Harrison: But how, when you drain it, then how did you stop it from filling up? Mukunda: Well, it did fill up in the winter quite a bit, but then in the summer it went back down. It's filled up now—we had to use city water to get it started. But as soon as it rains it goes up about this far. Jayatīrtha: It's evaporated about six inches since. Mukunda: You don't have a well in your place? George Harrison: No, just, well, that bore pond. Originally the lakes all were filled just like this as well as flooding the drains, and when it rained off the house everything would go. And we have a big storage tank, and then there's ballcocks, and underneath that big bank of rhododendrons was like a room built there, which was a storage tank. Then any other water he must have used just from the mains. But these days, you know, they have meters on the mains, so you have to pay for every gallon. Mukunda: What about getting those water diviners to come and find water? George Harrison: Well, you can find it I think anywhere if you just bore a hole. So what we did was just bore at the end of the lake. But you have to go down to the depth of the riverbed, and there there's not much water because the rain. It's all chalk and limestone, so the rain . . . that's the problem with watering in the summer, if you put water . . . Prabhupāda: From your house the river is near? George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Thames? George Harrison: Yes. But then the Thames is here, and we're up on the hill, so we bored a hole right down to the three hundred feet, I think, three hundred and fifty feet, to the level of the river, and then a pump, we can pump that. But when it does rain or if you do water the ground, it's all so chalky that it runs right through it. So it's hard to keep a lot of moisture in the water. But also at the same time all the rain water runs through. When it hits the rock level of the riverbed, there must be tons of water down there. We can pump out of there all day long for months on end, and nothing seems to dry up. Jayatīrtha: Fantastic. Mukunda: You could even do it by hand if you were out of electricity. George Harrison: I mean the hole is . . . the bore hole is actually only about this wide. You can have a little bucket. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: You have to apply for permission, actually, to dig a well, but around here at least you have to get permission. George Harrison: You have to. We did too. You have to put your name on a list, on a public notice in the local papers, and if somebody wants to complain about it, then they have a chance to. And once it's been up there for a few days or a week or something, and if nobody's made any formal complaint for any reason, like maybe they've got one, a bore hole, and you may be tampering there, so then you just go ahead. You know it's all approved, and then your name goes on the list someplace in the county surveyor's office. So you do have to go through a, you know, a couple of months of waiting. Just to, say, bore a hole to replenish, Jayatīrtha: Costs a lot of money for water around here. George Harrison: And you have to just pay for the cost of the bore hole and the pump, to lay out electricity to where the pump is. The pump is, you know, just in the ground. You can't even see it. You know, by that weeping willow tree? Prabhupāda: So if you want to take little rest, we can arrange for that. Resting. George Harrison: Rest? Prabhupāda: Yes, for you. George Harrison: No, no. Jayatīrtha: I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you want to rest. Prabhupāda: No. George Harrison: You take a rest. *Prabhupāda: I am taking rest now these twenty*-four hours. Now I have no other business than to take rest. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: Always resting at the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is real rest. *The Mukunda*-māla-stotra . . . there was a big emperor . . . (indistinct) . . . Kulaśekhara, Emperor Kulaśekhara, he was a great devotee. So he wrote some poetry. Formerly, kings were so advanced, rajarṣi . They are king, at the same time, saintly persons. In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2): this science of Bhagavad-gītā was learned by the rājarṣis . People were happy therefore. The head, or the executive, they were all saintly persons. So this Kulaśekhara, he writes in the beginning of his poetry, "Kṛṣṇa, O Kṛṣṇa . . ." Kṛṣṇa tvādīya-pada-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam . The paṅkaja means lotus flower. So Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet is just like lotus flower. The lotus flower has stem down, and the swans, they take pleasure to go down the water and entangled by the stem. Have you seen their pleasure? Yes. That is their great sporting, to be entangled by the stem and come out, in this way, go deep. This is their sporting. *So this Kulaśekhara is praying, "My Lord Kṛṣṇa, let my swan of mind be entangled with the stem of Your lotus feet." Kṛṣṇa tvādīya*-pada-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam adyaiva : "immediately"— viśatu —"let enter." Who? Adyaiva viśatu me , "my," mānasa-rāja-haṁsaḥ , "my mind, which is just like a swan." So why adyaiva , immediately? He says that prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye, "At the time of death," prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye kapha-vāta-pittaiḥ , "when the physical condition of the body will be in disorder," kapha, pitta, vayu will be not in order . . . prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye kapha-vāta-pittaiḥ kaṇṭhāvarodha , "At that time I shall not be able to speak. I'll ahn, ahn, but that's all. So I may not be able to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Better I am now in good health, so let my mind be entangled in the stem of Your lotus feet." Very nice poetry. *"At that time I may be not able to utter 'Kṛṣṇa' or think of You, and now I am healthy, let me finish this business." That means "Let me die immediately. Now I'm healthy, I'm quite fit." This is the ideal. Ante nārāyaṇa*-smṛtiḥ (SB 2.1.6). At the time of death, if one remembers Kṛṣṇa, then his life is successful. Immediately he goes to Kṛṣṇa. Just like Ajāmila. He chanted "Nārāyaṇa," and immediately his path to Vaikuṇṭha become clear. So this practice means, whatever we practice all through life, there is chance of coming that remembrance at the time of death, and then it is successful, life is success. If at the time of death one can remember Kṛṣṇa, then his whole life is successful. Our one student, Kārtikeya, his mother was very fortunate. So his mother had nothing to do with this Society, but the boy was attached, and she heard several times "Kṛṣṇa," that this boy is attached to Kṛṣṇa. At the time of her death, she asked her son, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" and died. Just see how fortunate she is. She simply uttered this word, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" then she died. Very fortunate. So on account of her son she got salvation. Yes. Otherwise, Kārtikeya told me that he went to see his mother, and the mother was going to ball dance, and the mother did not receive him well. "All right, you sit down. I'll come again." She was such lady. But by Kṛṣṇa's grace, at the time of death, she inquired her son, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" That's . . . (indistinct) . . . very fortunate. George Harrison: When my mother died I had to send my sister and father out of the room, because they were getting emotional, and I just chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: She chanted. George Harrison: I did. Prabhupāda: Oh, very nice. So she could hear? George Harrison: I don't know, I don't know. She was in like a coma or something. It was the only thing I could think of. Prabhupāda: When it happened? George Harrison: In 1970. It was the only thing I could think of that may be of value, you know. Prabhupāda: Anyway, if she has heard Hare Kṛṣṇa, she'll get benefitted. Either she chants or somebody chanting, if she hears, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam, both the same thing. Little chance. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). So let us practice in such a way that at the time of death we may remember. That is success. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). So you are reading Kṛṣṇa repeatedly? *Kṛṣṇa Book* you are reading repeatedly? George Harrison: Well, you know, I read it every so often. I always take the *Gītā* with me wherever I go. I mean that's the one I just keep all the time. But you know, I'll just sometimes read a little of something, a little bit of something else. I've never been a great reader. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, you have got chance here to think soberly. But on account of your chanting "Kṛṣṇa," so many people are chanting. George Harrison: I don't think it's on my account. Prabhupāda: No, they say: "George chants Hare Kṛṣṇa." They say. Do they not? Mukunda: Yes. Prabhupāda: And you have got many thousand followers. George Harrison: Well It's nice, but I think we all . . . *Prabhupāda: Anyway, you go on chanting. That will influence. There is a poetry written by, I think in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , where the Rupa Gosvāmī is wondering, "I do not know what sweetness there in these two words, Kṛṣ-ṇa ." Gurudāsa: The verse starts with priyo , "dear." *Prabhupāda: Varna*-dvayī. You remember this verse? No, jane . "What kind of nectar it is there in these two words, Kṛṣ-ṇa ?" You have seen Deity today? No, it was closed. George Harrison: It was closed. Jayatīrtha: It's open again now. Prabhupāda: When it is open? Jayatīrtha: It's open now. The ārati is going on, the afternoon ārati . Prabhupāda: Oh. Sometimes you can come and stay here, see the ārati , at least one day, whole program, how they are doing. What is the program whole day? *Jayatīrtha: It starts at four*-fifteen, here. Prabhupāda: Morning. *Jayatīrtha: Yes, with the ārati , and then we worship Tulasī*-devī, chant japa and then have class, and then prasādam , eight-fifteen. Then during the day we all work, and in the evening again, seven o'clock, everyone comes together for the ārati , class. George Harrison: How is that school in Texas, you know, with all the children? Hari-śauri: That's gurukula . Jayatīrtha: They have about six schools now. One's at this place in France, they have a school there, this farm. And Dallas, and Los Angeles, Pennsylvania, Māyāpur. Hari-śauri: Vṛndāvana gurukula also was started. George Harrison: There's all kinds of strange things written in those newspapers, Dallas, strange things. Particularly about the little children's school. Hari-śauri: It's because they don't bother to find out before they write things. Gurudāsa: Just like they said that the children sleep in the basement. That's because it was in the hot summer. Everyone goes to the basement in the summer in Dallas. Mukunda: The kids don't feel any difficulty at all sleeping on the floor. Children are naturally austere. It's just after you get to a certain age the conditioning affects you. Devotee: They said they live without furniture. (laughter) Gurudāsa: They're prejudiced about those things. Jayatīrtha: They have to eat with their hands. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You have got the last copy of Seventh Canto? Hari-śauri: Seven, Three? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mukunda: There's some books that came out since I brought those last books. George Harrison: There's also somebody, I think it was a guy who was trying to get his wife back or something. (laughs) I know it was in California . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was saying, "They've stolen my wife." These stories kill me. I mean, it's so funny because the way (indistinct conversation with devotees). Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, brahmacārī gurukule . Hari-śauri: I think that's in Seven, Two. Seven, One or Seven, Two. Harikeśa: Sixteenth Chapter, first verse, I think. It's the first verse, brahmacārī gurukule. Jayatīrtha: One man came to the temple, he heard that his daughter had participated in one of our fire sacrifices, and he was afraid that . . . George Harrison: Fire sacrifices? Jayatīrtha: When we have initiations we have a fire sacrifice. He was afraid that she had been sacrificed. (laughter) Hari-śauri: "Nārada Muni said, A student should practice completely controlling his senses. He should be submissive and should have an attitude of firm friendship for the spiritual master. With a great vow, the brahmacārī should live in the gurukula , only for the benefit of the guru ." Prabhupāda: Next. Pradyumna: "At both junctions of day, namely, in the early morning and in the evening, he should be fully absorbed in thoughts of the spiritual master, fire, the sun god and Lord Viṣṇu, and by chanting the Gāyatrī mantra he should worship them." Prabhupāda: Go on reading. Pradyumna: "Being called by the spiritual master, the student should study the Vedic mantras regularly. Every day, before beginning his studies and at the end of his studies, the disciple should respectfully offer obeisances unto the spiritual master." "Carrying pure kuṣa grass in his hand, the brahmacārī should dress regularly with a belt of straw and with deerskin garments. He should wear matted hair, carry a rod and waterpot, and be decorated with a sacred thread, as recommended in the śāstras ." "The brahmacārī should go out morning and evening to collect alms, and he should offer all that he collects to the spiritual master. He should eat only if ordered to take food by the spiritual master; otherwise, if the spiritual master does not give this order, he may sometimes have to fast." "A brahmacārī should be quite well behaved and gentle and should not eat or collect more than necessary. He must always be active and expert, fully believing in the instructions of the spiritual master and the sastra . Fully controlling his senses, he should associate only as much as necessary with women or those controlled by women." "A brahmacārī , or one who has not accepted the grhastha āśrama , or family life, must rigidly avoid talking with women or about women, for the senses are so powerful that they may agitate even the mind of a sannyāsī , a member of the renounced order of life." "If the wife of the spiritual master is young, a young brahmacārī should not allow her to care for his hair, massage his body with oil, or bathe him with affection like a mother." "Woman is compared to fire, and man is compared to a butter pot. Therefore a man should avoid associating even with his own daughter in a secluded place. Similarly, he should also avoid association with other women. One should associate with women only for important business and not otherwise." *"As long as a living entity is not completely self*-realized—as long as he is not independent of the misconception of identifying with his body, which is nothing but a reflection of the original body and senses—he cannot be relieved of the conception of duality, which is epitomized by the duality between a man and woman. Thus there is every chance that he will fall down because his intelligence is bewildered." "All the rules and regulations apply equally to the householder and the sannyāsī , the member of the renounced order of life. The grhastha , however, is given permission by the spiritual master to indulge in sex during the period favorable for procreation." " Brahmacārīs or grhasthas who have taken the vow of celibacy as described above should not indulge in the following: applying powder or ointment to the eyes, massaging the head with oil, massaging the body with the hands, seeing a woman or painting a woman's picture, eating meat, drinking wine, decorating the body with flower garlands, smearing scented ointment on the body, or decorating the body with ornaments. These they should give up." *"According to the rules and regulations mentioned above, one who is twice*-born, namely a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya or vaiśya , should reside in the gurukula under the care of the spiritual master. There he should study and learn all the Vedic literatures along with their supplements and the Upaniṣads , according to his ability and power to study. If possible, the student or disciple should reward the spiritual master with the remuneration the spiritual master requests, and then, following the master's order, the disciple should leave and accept one of the other āśramas , namely the gṛhastha āśrama, vānaprastha āśrama or sannyāsa āśrama, as he desires." Prabhupāda: So this is my copy? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: You can give. Hari-śauri: This is Prabhupāda's latest book just came out. George Harrison: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What was it he was saying? I thought you were going to read out of here something about Kṛṣ-ṇa , the two . . . Pradyumna: This was about the brahmacārī in the gurukula , in the school, what a young child should learn to practice. George Harrison: Yes. But I thought you were saying something about the sound of the two sounds of Kṛṣ and ṇa . *Prabhupāda: Ah, kṛṣṇeti varṇa*-dvayī (CC Antya 1.99). Gurudāsa: Ah, yes. "I wish I had ten thousand ears to hear the sweet sound of Kṛṣṇa, and ten thousand tongues to say it." George Harrison: So this isn't . . . I didn't get this one? Mukunda: Not yet, no. That's latest. It just came out. George Harrison: Seventh Canto, Part Three. Hari-śauri: They bring the first two copies to Śrīla Prabhupāda wherever he is. So this we got in New York just before we left. Gurudāsa: It's right off the press. Mukunda: Look at the pictures in the . . . Prabhupāda: These pictures are made by our boys. George Harrison: Yes, beautiful. Prabhupāda: They are learning more and more. Hari-śauri: This one is very good because it explains the breakdown of the social positions. George Harrison: Hmm? Hari-śauri: The varṇāśrama system. It's very good. *Prabhupāda: This instruction of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam was never given before in the Western countries. This is the first time. George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore they're appreciating. We are selling our book daily sixty thousand dollars. George Harrison: Really? Prabhupāda: Yes. All over the world. Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you're going to outdo Shakespeare soon. You'll have written more English words than William Shakespeare. (Prabhupāda laughs) Maybe you already have. *Hari-śauri: I don't think Shakespeare's brought out fifty*-six books. Mukunda: The Encyclopaedia Britannica wrote to us asking for . . . Prabhupāda: They have said . . . George Harrison: These books are such a lot of work. I don't know how he did it all. Gurudāsa: While everyone else sleeps, Prabhupāda's . . . George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: At night I don't sleep. Not that because I am nowadays sick. But generally I don't sleep. Utmost two hours. Utmost. Hari-śauri: I think it's a long time since you've taken any rest at night. Prabhupāda: I take little rest during daytime. So on the whole, three to four hours. But actually I do not like to sleep. George Harrison: No, it's a waste of time. Prabhupāda: I think it is, when I go to sleep, I think that now I'm going to waste my time. I actually think like that. George Harrison: What's the word for . . . the call it the little . . . little death. Sleep is the little death. Prabhupāda: The śāstra also, Prahlāda Mahārāja describe the sleeping is waste of time. (aside) You find out that verse. Hari-śauri: It's in Seven, Two? Prabhupāda: Seventh Canto. He's estimating you have got hundred years age, utmost. Out of that, fifty years lost, sleep. And then twenty years playing as child, a boy. And in old age, another . . . Hari-śauri: "Every human being has a maximum duration of life of one hundred years, but for one who cannot control his senses, half of those years are completely lost because at night he sleeps twelve hours, being covered by ignorance. Therefore such a person has a lifetime of only fifty years." Prabhupāda: Fifty years immediately minus. Then out of the fifty years? Hari-śauri: "In the tender age of childhood, when everyone is bewildered, one passes ten years. Similarly, in boyhood, engaged in sporting and playing, one passes another ten years. In this way, twenty years are wasted. Similarly, in old age, when one is an invalid, unable to perform even material activities, one passes another twenty years wastefully." "One whose mind and senses are uncontrolled becomes increasingly attached to family life because of insatiable lusty desires and very strong illusion. In such a madman's life the remaining years are also wasted, because even during those years he cannot engage himself in devotional service." Prabhupāda: So hundred years finished. (laughs) Fifty years, twenty years, twenty years and ten years. George Harrison: Which volume is that? Hari-śauri: This is the one before that one. George Harrison: Part Two. Hari-śauri: Yes. This is Prahlāda Mahārāja's instructions. Prabhupāda: You can give that volume also. George Harrison: Did you . . . do you . . . I'm not too sure which ones I've got up to. Mukunda: He's got up to . . . you've got about two more coming before that. I'll give them to you before you go, to make sure. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa varṇa*-dvayī , you have got that? *Jayatīrtha: I found that verse. Actually, Rañcor found it. Tuṇḍe tāṇḍavinī ratim vitanute tuṇḍāvalī*-ladbhaye. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna? You just note down this verse and give him. Jayatīrtha: And the translation is "I do not know how much nectar the two syllables kṛṣ-ṇa have produced. When the holy name of Kṛṣṇa is chanted, it appears to dance within the mouth. We then desire many, many mouths. When that name enters the holes of the ears, we desire many millions of ears. And when the holy name dances in the courtyard of the heart, it conquers the activities of the mind, and therefore all the senses become inert." That was Rupa Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: That is very nice poetry. Read it again. Tuṇḍe tāṇḍavinī . . . Jayatīrtha: The English? I don't chant very well. Harikeśa Mahārāja chants nicely. Prabhupāda: Yes, you first of all recite. Very nice. (background talking) Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: One thing, you can record and give him. Hari-śauri: I'll make a copy of this tape and give it to him. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, you should recite very properly, and then it will recorded. Then it will be right. Pradyumna: This is Sanskrit. Jayatīrtha: That's Sanskrit? It's written in Bengali characters. I see. Prabhupāda: In India, all different states they have got different alphabets, but the Sanskrit is the same. There is no change in Sanskrit. India's culture, all the provinces, they talk a little . . . (indistinct) . . . if you chant this mantra according to the Sanskrit tune, oh, your admirers will take it very nicely. (laughter) And that will be a great benefit to the mass of people. George Harrison: I don't know if they'd like it. Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll like. (laughs) George Harrison: They don't understand. Already they don't understand such a lot. Even if you say it in English. Even when you say things to them in English, they don't understand. Prabhupāda: That word Kṛṣṇa, if they hear, that will be sufficient. George Harrison: (indistinct comments with devotees) We were in Vṛndāvana, somebody, we were singing in the morning, singing this " Jaya Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. George Harrison: And he asked, this person said to me, "You should make it into a song in English." So I wrote English verses, and in each chorus it has " jaya kṛṣṇa, jaya kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa, jaya kṛṣṇa, jaya śrī kṛṣṇa; jaya rādhe, jaya rādhe, rādhe, jaya rādhe, jaya śrī rādhe ." I don't know, did you . . . if you heard that song. It was on that "Extra Texture"—you know that one? "He who . . ." I wrote the English words. "He whose eyes have seen what our lives have been, and who we really are—it is He, jaya śrī kṛṣṇa. " And then it has a chorus. "He whose sweetness flows to any one of those that cares to look His way, see His smile, jaya śrī rādhe, " then the chorus again. Mukunda: This is on George's new record. George Harrison: No, it was last year. And "He who is complete, three worlds at His feet, cause of every star, it is He, jaya Śrī Kṛṣṇa ." It's a nice song. But I took the old, the tune that we sang in Vṛndāvana, and just made slightly different, you know, with chords, chord patterns. Prabhupāda: So in your next record, you can give this. (laughter) George Harrison: (break) . . . this little girl, he had a baby girl and was trying to think of a name, so I told him to call it Dhara, you know? 'Cause from Rādhā— rādhārādhārādhā —it becomes dhārā. So he called his girl that name. Jayatīrtha: There's a story of Vālmīki. You know that story? Gurudāsa: Mārāmārāmārāmārāmārāmārā . Jayatīrtha: Vālmīki was a murderer, or a dacoit, thief. So he was met by Nārada Muni, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, Vālmīki. Jayatīrtha: And he was advised by Nārada Muni to please chant the holy name of the Lord and give up this thievery. So he wouldn't. So instead Nārada Muni said: "You chant mārā ." Mārā means death. So he agreed. Prabhupāda: Mārāmārā—rāma. Jayatīrtha: Later on, this Vālmīki he wrote the *Rāmāyaṇa* after having chanting rāma . . . mārā , he became purified. Hari-śauri: Transcendental trickery. Jayatīrtha: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Long live. (everyone leaves) (end) Conversation -- July 27, 1976, London Prabhupāda: He is so monied man. He cannot get nice food even, the primary necessities. And getting jaundice. Hari-śauri: He had jaundice? Jayatīrtha: Yes, he just recovered from jaundice. Thinks he was poisoned by something he ate. The main reason why he doesn't . . . he got jaundice because, he admitted this that he had Ravi Shankar's brother cooking for him. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: He had one Kumar Shankar, the brother of Ravi Shankar, is cooking for him. So this man is a demon; therefore he is becoming sick. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they are all drunkards, all third*-class men, fourth-class men, low-class men. In India, this naṭas , they are third class, fourth class. Naṭas means the artist—singer, dancers. They are meant for the fourth-class, fifth-class men. It was never taken by the . . . they are called, and they will expertly sing, dance, in some festival. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas , they were not doing that. Still in India there is a class, very expert in dancing, singing. Low class. Their hereditary business is like that. Bhagavān: So you have given everything. You have given all the structure. We have to present it rightly. *Prabhupāda: Even, say, hundred years ago, that Girish Chandra Ghosh, he wanted to introduce theatrical performances, imitating the European theatrical performances, man and woman taking part. So he wanted to invite woman artist. Not a single woman joined. Who will go to public stage to dance, respectable girl? They'll never. That is hundred years. I am speaking, say, about forty years ago. In one of our community, the girl was to be married, and it is the custom in India, the bridegroom's party comes to see the girl, whether she is right. Similarly, the girl's party goes to see the . . . so they came to see one of my friend's daughter. The daughter is very beautiful, rich man's daughter. So one of the bridegroom party questioned, "You know how to dance?" That was his question to the girl: "You have learned something about dancing and singing?" So she was my friend's daughter, my, that friend, Mukunda Mullik. His elder brother was there. He became very angry that, "This rascal is asking our daughter whether she knows dancing and singing." She took it as . . . he took it as insult that, "Respectable family, daughter should learn how to dance, and sing?" So immediately he protested, "No, no, no, she does not know how to dance, how to sing. She's not meant for that purpose. We like, of course, a young girl dancing and singing, but we cannot teach our family members. We spend for that outside. You cannot expect our Mullik's family daughter dancing and singing. No." He is very persistent. Actually that is . . . dancing? Singing? What is this nonsense? For a respectable family? It is meant for the low*-class professional. Pay them, they will dance. Or go to some prostitute. She will dance. So he said that "We have got some taste for dancing, but not that our family members should do that. We pay for that outside." So this art . . . and among the theatrical, Girish Chandra Ghosh could not get a single response from any respectable family. Then he had to seek some young girls from the prostitute class. They became later on famous artists, Kusumkamali Dasi, this Dasi . . . nowadays it has become a fashion that aristocratic family should join this cinema and spoil their character. Otherwise it was meant for the . . . no respectable man. You find the Bhāgavata description, especially for these professional who would come. They'll take their reward. Bhagavān: This class is very influential today, this cinema artist, performer. Whenever there's a Presidential race . . . Prabhupāda: Just like George. What is his value? He's artist, that's all. From educational point of view, from other things view, he does not know anything. But he has got some money on account of his artistic payment, and he's big man, that's all. Somehow or other get money, you become a big man. There is no question of culture or anything. That is stated in the Bhāgavata . The money will be the criterion—no family, culture, education. These things will not be taken into account. If you have got money, then you are big man. Never mind what you are. Therefore people are after money. Who is going to be Brahmin ? If you become a perfect Brahmin , who will care for you? Nobody is interested to become a Brahmin . "Why we shall become Brahmin , starve? For starvation?" Nowadays in the college, they're not interested in art, philosophy, English literature. No, they . . . nobody. They go for technical, how they will get more money. They do not want. Some of the doctor, professor, they came to request us to give our student. They are not getting student. And after few years they'll be all dismissed. Who will pay them? Hayagrīva told me, he's not getting any job. There is another, Mr. . . . Dr. Henderson. He's also not getting any job. He's selling incense. And Bon Mahārāja, his institute is suffering from the very beginning till now, simply begging, begging and paying, paying the professor. No student. First of all he started Vaiṣṇava philosophy, so doctorate, Ph.D. So especially in India, who is going to take Ph.D. in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and starve? So this is failure. It is already failure, but he is persistent. Bhagavān: Therefore people are very surprised we are not starving. Prabhupāda: Why we shall starve? Bhagavān: We are not starving. Prabhupāda: We are, rather, inviting, "Come here, live comfortably, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then what is the difference between Kṛṣṇa's state and ordinary state? When I see so many young boys are taking prasādam , I become so happy that they are having prasādam and good chance for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. They are living in the best house. Bhagavān: Even the churches, they are not feeding people like this. They have so much money. *Prabhupāda: They do not know whose money, how to spend it. Bokā*-loka. (pause) Prabhupāda: In the evening I took that watermelon juice? That created havoc whole night. I think so. So for breakfast you can prepare that soup, the little. Just put vegetable soup. Jayatīrtha: Vegetable soup. Prabhupāda: That's all. Hari-śauri: Nothing else? No fruits? Prabhupāda: You can keep; if I like I can take. But the vegetable soup. Hari-śauri: What time would you like breakfast? Prabhupāda: Half past seven, eight. We are publishing one book, Dialectic Spiritualism. What is that? Jayatīrtha: Harikeśa Mahārāja's book. Bhagavān: No, no. Another one Prabhupāda's spoke. Hari-śauri: The philosophy book. Jayatīrtha: Oh, the philosophy book will be called Dialectic Spiritualism ? Ah, very good title. Hari-śauri: A Vedic View of Western Philosophy . Jayatīrtha: Very good title. *Prabhupāda: That's a fact. If one actually interested in real philosophy, they must come to spiritualism. Ātma*-tattvam. That is ātma-tattvam. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam ( SB 5.5.5). So long they do not come to this platform of understanding ātma-tattva , whatever rascal they are doing, simply defeat, that's all. Parābhava . Simply frustration and defeat. This very word, parābhava , means defeat. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ . Why he's defeated? Abodha-jātaḥ. Because by birth he's a rascal. Abodha-jātaḥ . And this will continue, yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam . So long he's not enlightened to inquire about spirit and the science of spirit, he'll remain in that, that, what is called, defeat position or conquered position. So we have to now increase our scope. Everything we have got. If you don't come to this platform, ātma-tattva , then your all attempt will be defeat. You are already defeated, frustrated. Simply struggling, that's all. Either take the capitalist or Communist, who has conquered? Everyone is defeated. One party may be proud that, "We have been victorious." What victory you have got? What is the victory? Not that the Communist countries, they are all happy. This is not the fact. Then where is your victory? Simply beating the drum that they have got victory, victory? "We have gone to moon planet. We have gone to Mars." Cheating innocent public. Is that victory? (pause) Prabhupāda: The girls are working that side? No. Hari-śauri: No, they won't come for another half hour yet. Jayatīrtha: They can come earlier if you like. They can come any time you like. Prabhupāda: No. No, I have no objection. What is that? They'll work that side, I'll sit down here. Jayatīrtha: They should come now. (leaves room) Prabhupāda: Yes. Our program is solid, but if we have to argue with animals, that is a different thing. Otherwise any human being, they will accept. But the modern civilization means to keep the people in general in animal platform, that's all, and cheat them. (pause) Bhagavān: Most of the people who . . . they are becoming attracted to this Communist philosophy, they have no idea how to practically apply it. All they are seeing is "It is an opportunity to take from the rich and give me to enjoy." But they are not seeing any scope of community cooperation. This is all impractical. They are seeing, "I will get money from my boss. I will take his wealth and distribute." They are simply materialists. Prabhupāda: That also "Distribute for me. More share for me." (laughs) Now there is drought; there is no rain. What the capitalists or Communists can do in this connection? If they are able to present any program how to counteract? Then where is your progress? When there is some calamity, you both of you are simply looking. That's all. You cannot do anything. Then where is your progress? Hari-śauri: The reason why the Russians were buying wheat from America . . . Prabhupāda: Yes? Hari-śauri: . . . because they had no rain. All their crops failed. Jayatīrtha: Not only that, people aren't inclined to work very hard. The farmers are not very enthusiastic to work very hard, because they work very hard, but they have to give all the fruit away. So because they are karmīs , they want the fruit. The state is taking the fruit, therefore they don't want to work. Prabhupāda: Why they shall work? Jayatīrtha: They have no incentive. Prabhupāda: "I'll work and you'll enjoy. Why shall we work?" That is natural tendency. This can be possible only for Kṛṣṇa. "I'll work; Kṛṣṇa will enjoy." That's all. That is only possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jayatīrtha: That's a fact. Therefore it's the only practical communism. *Prabhupāda: "I shall fight, give my all best, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied." . . . (indistinct) . . . Arjuna for his personal, he did not . . . decline, but when he saw that, "Kṛṣṇa wants it? All right." That is kṛṣṇa*-prema. "Never mind I shall be aggrieved by killing my kinsmen, but Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. That's all right." This is Kṛṣṇa philosophy. We cannot find this philosophy in the material world that, "I shall work, and so many will be satisfied." That is not possible. "If I work, I must be satisfied." So these Communists, they will work according to . . . everyone will show that "I have no capacity." So the production will reduce, and they'll have to beg. *Jayatīrtha: They've had to introduce capitalistic*-type incentives in many of the Communist countries in order to induce the people to work. Prabhupāda: Not capitalistic. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. They'll have to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa, and for Kṛṣṇa, they are prepared to do anything. That is philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first class, Vaiṣṇava. Yenātmā suprasīdati . Who knows this verse? Find out this verse. *Bhagavān: Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo ? First Canto. "The first*-class occupation is that which brings love of God. When uninterested, unmotivated, it brings satisfaction." Prabhupāda: Yes. Who will understand this philosophy? Harikeśa: "The supreme occupation, dharma' , for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self." Prabhupāda: So the Communist teaching that, "You love Lenin," and the capitalist teaching that, "You love Washington," so nobody's satisfied. Unless the love comes to Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of satisfied. Jayatīrtha: There's no reciprocation. Prabhupāda: Anyway, there must be defect because the love is reposed in some defective or imperfect personality. It may be Lenin or it may be Washington, it doesn't matter. He's imperfect. (bell rings) Harikeśa: Who's that? Hari-śauri: They're cleaning. Harikeśa: By accident they must have pushed it. Prabhupāda: Love is there. Otherwise why so many people are working? But because it is misplaced, they are not satisfied. Therefore it is stated, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Adhokṣaje , this word, is used. God . . . they may say that, "Where is God?" And therefore the word is used, adhokṣaje : "beyond your sense perception." Everything is within sense perception. So therefore this very word is used that, "You cannot see, you cannot perceive, but still you have to love Him." Adhokṣaje . They say, therefore, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is some ideal, imagination, Kṛṣṇa. They think . . . they say: "They have an imaginary form of Kṛṣṇa, a stone, and unnecessarily they are wasting their time, loving Kṛṣṇa." What is their theory? You know that? Harikeśa: Some people think. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are some. They are not all. Even they criticize that, "You cannot see Kṛṣṇa," so similar argument can be, "You do not see Lenin. Why you are worshiping?" That's it. "Is Lenin present before you? So why you are worshiping?" You'll see. You have got, in Moscow got, every street corner a big picture. Harikeśa: They're trying to replace everybody's desire to worship some greater authority. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, but if you or somebody argues, "Where is Lenin? You are . . . why you are worshiping? You cannot see Lenin." Because they say, "Where is your Kṛṣṇa? You are worshiping a statue," so we can say the same thing, "Where is your Lenin? The statue, it is?" In the airport station, street crossing and everywhere there is picture. And they go to worship Lenin's tomb every day. Many other fools also go there, tourists, that Red Square. They tried in India for Jawaharlal's tomb, for Gandhi's tomb. So in the beginning there was little crowd. Now nobody goes. But Vṛndāvana, Govindajī's temple, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple? Without invitation—crowd. This is culture. (loud chanting begins in background as curtains open in temple room) Bhagavān: Marx, he has written only little book, and you have written so many books. Prabhupāda: What does he know, he'll write? What does he know that he will write? He can bluff people for . . . that's all. Here is Vyāsadeva, vidvān . So: You have found? Read it. Harikeśa: "The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned Vyāsadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth." Prabhupāda: So here is vidvān , and there is a rascal. He does not know how people will be helped. (pause) Prabhupāda: Where you got these beads? Bhagavān: Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Purchased? Bhagavān: Someone gave them as gift, a devotee. Tulasī . Prabhupāda: In Hawaii there are so many tulasīs , dry wood. We can make those. (pause) Bhagavān: In our preaching this is good point, that we do not alienate the Communist and stress on the differences between us and them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: That can come later. *Prabhupāda: But they see practically that, "We are theorizing while they're practically doing." So expand this farming project, self*-help and peaceful life for spiritual culture. I saw that Philadelphia farming is better organized than all others. Jayatīrtha: Yes, in Pennsylvania they have the best farm. It is the best farm. They bought it, it already had all this equipment and best flat farmland, whereas New Vrindavan, they have such a . . . Prabhupāda: Hilly. Jayatīrtha: Hilly, and the place was originally not very nice. Everything they had to build from scratch. Hari-śauri: The management in New Vrindavan is a lot more difficult as well, because they've tried to avoid machinery, so the whole concept of farming without any complicated machinery . . . Prabhupāda: But they have got so many machine. In New Vrindavan there are so many machinery. Hari-śauri: Not so much tractors and things, though. They've been trying to concentrate with just oxen and things like that, so it's taken a while to develop the whole concept, whereas in Pennsylvania they're using so many machines. Prabhupāda: No, we are not . . . (indistinct) . . . various things. Jayatīrtha: In our Vancouver farm, because we had machinery, we were able to put more land under cultivation in the first year than they had in New Vrindavan after so many years. Seemed very efficient. Bhagavān: Thing is, we should not become dependent on machine. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: This unemployment is to their discredit. In the karmis society the unemployment is a great discredit. Now people sitting idle. Prabhupāda: There will be great catastrophe. The unemployment will increase, and people will be very much dissatisfied, especially the black. They will create havoc. This is artificial. They are increasing the production of tire tube and . . . (indistinct) . . . then who will purchase? Nobody lives in tire tube. Therefore unemployment. So therefore reduce production. You cannot go on increasing. You very much trade this tire tube and so many artificial . . . it is very artificial civilization. (break) Here, so far milk and food grains are concerned, whatever sumptuously you want to eat, eat. Balance you can keep stock. The milk can be converted into ghee , then keep stock, and the grains can be stocked. Whenever you like, you just grind the grains and have to eat, halavā . Bhagavān: It's very ecstatic. Prabhupāda: If you have got excess, you can distribute free prasādam , "Come on." You make friends. *Bhagavān: You gave one argument before about this meat*-eating. You say: "If you want to eat meat, that is all right. Why you don't wait until the animal dies naturally?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: "He's going to die one day. So you wait. Now, in the meantime, you can eat cats and dogs." Jayatīrtha: While waiting for the cows to die. Prabhupāda: Yes, cats and dogs they are eating. Yes. Hong Kong, they are eating. Who said that one gentleman came to Hong Kong hotel? Eh? Hari-śauri: One of the devotees in America. Some man came with his pet dog. So in America they tie up the dogs outside the restaurant, so he did that and he went in. And then he pointed, he showed the doorman his dog, meaning that he was liable to look after him. So after he'd eaten his meal he went out and his dog was gone. So after some inquiry they found out that when he showed the doorman the dog, he misunderstood and thought that he wanted to eat it, that he was bringing his lunch with him, so he took the dog and killed it and served him. He ate his dog. Jayatīrtha: A local policeman here said that in England there are more laws protecting the dogs than there are protecting the children. If you beat your children, there is no problem. If you beat your dog, immediately they'll come arrest you. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Jayatīrtha: Yes. Bhagavān: I've seen in India, they are bringing foreign dogs. Jayatīrtha: Even that one gosvāmī in Vṛndāvana, he has got French dogs. Prabhupāda: That poodles. Jayatīrtha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: He's rascal. " Jagat*-guru ." (pause) Prabhupāda: So you can go. Jayatīrtha: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . (end) Conversation A -- July 31, 1976, New Mayapur *Bhūgarbha: Many scholars are appreciating more and more. And on the University of Edmonton, in Alberta, Canada, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he was a linguist, professor of linguistics. He's a very pious man, and he is writing a book with some other professor in the Religion department on the comparative study of bhakti in the Indian tradition and the Hebrew tradition. And he's using your books as his only source for the Indian tradition. So he ordered not only one set of all the books, but two sets of all your books. Three sets actually. He ordered one set of Bhāgavatams for his own personal library, then he ordered two sets for the University library—one for the reference section and one for the general section. So he ordered three sets. And when his book comes out, in the back they have a bibliography section, references, and he will give reference to all your books. He was wondering . . . he's writing this book about bhakti , and he said: "What is a good definition of bhakti for the Indian tradition?" So I showed him Nectar of Devotion , anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). He said that is very good, and he wrote it down and put it in his book. Prabhupāda: Till now, they took bhakti as a matter of sentiment. Religious science they did not know, all over the world. Bhūgarbha: He said he's trying to show that by studying bhakti in Indian tradition and also in Hebrew tradition, he's . . . Prabhupāda: Bhakti is not achieved by studying. Bhakti stage is achieved by practice. That is the special significance of our institution, that we are engaging our men in practicing. Therefore they are getting knowledge—not by reading. Bhūgarbha: He was saying there are certain social and economic conditions that need to be present before bhakti can come about. Prabhupāda: Bhakti can solve everything—social, economical, cultural, religious, everything. (coughing heavily) So Dr. Joseph saw all my books? *Bhūgarbha: Every one he saw. We showed him some . . . he was very happy to see the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Yes, I offered him the post of editing. Bhūgarbha: Now he's sorry. Now he's simply sitting in debt. (means: he feels he can't repay his debt to you) Prabhupāda: But he did not say no. He wanted to do conveniently. Then I thought, it will not be . . . (coughs) "When he will return, he'll do it." That is not possible. Bhūgarbha: He gave me some of his books that he wrote. He gave me some to read. And actually the English in your books is much better than his books, so better he's not editing. It's coming out better. Prabhupāda: No, he's not a good English scholar. Bhūgarbha: Actually, he speaks perfect French also. And he got his Ph.D. from the University of Paris. Prabhupāda: Paris or Dutch as well. Bhūgarbha: He's been every place. He went to . . . in Paris he got in the Sorbonne, and also in Pondicherry they have one French Institute, and there he got his Ph.D. And also in Holland there is one very important man. So by his letters we can . . . many people will take our books. Prabhupāda: No, he's undoubtedly very great Sanskrit scholar. He had written some book how to make the sacred thread, like that. How many knots should be there, how many . . . (laughter) Smārta Brahmin. *Bhūgarbha: Now he's written another book to show how his life is changing. His latest book was about the five chapters of the Dasama*-skanda , which is the rasa-līlā. That is his book now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhūgarbha: So he's changing smārta , now he's turning different. Prabhupāda: No, he has no training in bhakti . *Bhūgarbha: He said one nice thing. He said that without Jīva Gosvāmī's Ṣaṭ*-sandarbhas there's no question of understanding Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhūgarbha: He made that statement. Prabhupāda: (coughing) I met him when he was in Delhi once. Bhūgarbha: We were very inspired, in Delhi, that almost every college we went to, they already had your three books, and the librarians, they would remember. We would ask them, "When did you get these books?" They'd think, "Well, about ten, twelve years ago, some sannyāsī came. We purchased." Prabhupāda: So they remembered. Bhūgarbha: They were . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So now they took others? Bhūgarbha: Now . . . we said that, "You've begun, this is only the beginning. You cannot have incomplete set." They said: "Yes, we cannot have incomplete," so they took the rest. And also that man, that Shastri, the Ministry of Education? That man Mr. Shastri, in the Ministry of Education, the Rātrī of Sanskrit- samsad , he bought fifty copies? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhūgarbha: He's also, I think, taken fifty standing orders now to complete wherever he is. Prabhupāda: He is still there? Bhūgarbha: No, he has shifted now. He's in Darbhanga. But his successor, he's taken. We just made copy, it is printed in your *Bhāgavatam* . So he made true copy on some paper, and he has two copies of the last order, and this is the balance of his subscription, so now he should take. Prabhupāda: That is Education Ministry. Bhūgarbha: They're only giving the Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: They can take at least fifty copies of each. Bhūgarbha: Yes. So he's doing that now. Prabhupāda: They gave me order, I dispatched by post, and if the acknowledgement received, I submitted my bill, they paid. Bhūgarbha: We're going to find the list of which universities you sent to, because we only found . . . not that many. Prabhupāda: That will be a waste of time. (laughter) So many things I did not keep record. Bhūgarbha: Even in Poona, they had, the Deccan College in Poona. They also had. We sent to them also. They also ordered balance. Prabhupāda: In Bombay also I supplied to so many colleges. And the Public Library. Bhūgarbha: That Royal Asiatic Society. Prabhupāda: Ah. Bhūgarbha: In Bombay they purchase all the books. We had to do a little negotiation with them, but they purchased everything. Then the Calcutta Royal Asiatic Society, they wrote us a letter, they said that, "These books are the best," the letter came like that, but that "we have no funds to purchase, so can you please send us free of charge?" Prabhupāda: They have no funds? Asiatic? Bhūgarbha: They said like that. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Nowadays people are not interested in cultural societies. They are simply for belly. How to earn money, that's all. Śūdra mentality. The brāhmaṇa mentality is gone. In America also, people are not joining cultural classes of philosophy. Hayagrīva said that he has no job because nobody is taking English as literary study. Nobody's interested. They are taking to technology. Bhūgarbha: Science. Prabhupāda: Science means how to make the motorcar wheel, that's all. This is their science. Bhūgarbha: In America, the professors complain to us. When we try to sell them personal books, they should take books themselves, they say that the salary of a college professor in America is the same as the salary of a waiter in some hotel. That is the respect they are given. Prabhupāda: Sometimes they are called church mouse. Church mouse. A mouse in the church, what he'll eat? He's in a householder's place, a mouse is there, he can eat something. But church, nobody's eating there. Simply dust, that's all. (laughter) Church mouse. Any new mail? Harikeśa: Stacks of it. Quite a lot. Prabhupāda: Oh. Where from? Harikeśa: Want to go over it now? Shall we go over everything now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Jyotirmāyī is outside, and Yogeśvara. We can have them come in? Prabhupāda: Just fix on the light. Bhagavān: Is now the right time to ask? She has some questions on gurukula . Is now okay? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . has not come? Harikeśa: They haven't come as yet. Bhagavān: Yogeśvara has just come back from Italy. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the news, Italy? *Yogeśvara: They've finished the preparation for the printing of the French edition of Kṛṣṇa Book and Śrī Upadeśāmṛta and the Italian Bhagavad*-gītā , and they should be ready within the next ten days. Prabhupāda: French language. *Bhagavān: And Italian Bhagavad*-gītā is done. Prabhupāda: What is the political position of the Fascist and Communist? Yogeśvara: Very mixed up. Bhagavān: They are called Christian Democrats. (laughs) Prabhupāda: They can manufacture so many. Fertile brain in the tract of deserted world. This world is desert, and they have got fertile brain. They call? The fertile land in the deserted land, in the desert, is called oasis. So similarly, these rascals, they have got fertile brain in the world of desert, but there is no happiness. But they have got fertile brain how to manufacture happiness. And māyā kicks on their face and baffles everything. This is the illusion. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā ( BG 7.14). They, the world is desert, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), but they have got fertile brain, how to become happy. And as soon as they make some arrangement, kicks on his face and broken. That's all. What do you think? Is it right? Sometimes you have got fertile brain. (laughter) This fertile brain, he will not accept. He'll be kicked out. Everything will be finished. If you want to be happy, then you have to go back home, back to Kṛṣṇa. That is the only way. Otherwise, your fertile brain will not help. What do you think, Jyotirmāyī? You are intelligent. Jyotirmāyī: I came to ask you some questions about the gurukula , because now if I don't ask them today . . . Prabhupāda: So gurukula means . . . find out that chapter, brahmacārī gurukule. Hari-śauri: 7.10 (background discussion about which verse) Prabhupāda: Vasan dānto guror hitam. (SB 7.12.1) The beginning of life is how to become cent percent obedient to guru . That is gurukula . That training should be given. The whole process is that our life will be successful when we strictly follow guru and Kṛṣṇa. Guru means Kṛṣṇa; *Kṛṣṇa means guru . Not Māyāvāda, but guru means one who follows Kṛṣṇa, he is guru . Sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ . So guru is directly God, sākṣād-hari. Sākṣād means "directly." So sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas , in every śāstra it is said the guru is God, Kṛṣṇa. So it is stated in the śāstra and it is accepted by authorities. Not that it is simply stated. Samasta-śāstrair, ukta . You understand little Sanskrit? *Jyotirmāyī: Some verses from Bhagavad*-gītā . *Prabhupāda: Huh? Ukta, ukta means "said." And sadbhiḥ , "by great personalities." Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas, tathā, and "accordingly"— tathā means "accordingly". Bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ , those who are actually in transcendental platform, they should accept it. So why? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva . . . it does not mean Māyāvādī, that he has become God. But kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya , he is the most confidential servant. He's therefore servant-God. He's God—servant-God. God is master-God. Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. So why he has become priya ? That is, Kṛṣṇa says personally, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69): nobody is dearer than him in the whole world. Why? Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidā . . . (BG 18.68), "who preaches this gospel of Bhagavad-gītā amongst My devotees." So the guru has got two business, he has to make devotee and teach them the principles of Bhagavad-gītā . Therefore he's so dear. Not that he has become God, not Māyāvādī philosophy. He's living entity, but because he acts very confidentially on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, therefore he's as good as God. This is going on. Not the Māyāvādī philosophy, that guru has become God. Guru is God, not become. He's servant-God. And Kṛṣṇa is master-God. So the success is that both the Gods, when one is accepted by both the Gods, then his life is success. Guru*-kṛṣṇa kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Therefore one has to fix his faith staunchly in the bona fide guru . So if one has got bona fide guru , and if he follows that bona fide guru , then his life is success. This is the process. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair . So gurukula means to teach how to become very, very faithful, cent percent faithful, to the bona fide guru . That is guru . So you have to teach like that—by behavior, by life, by action. That is gurukula . This sum and substance of . . . brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānto guror hitam. Where is that? Harikeśa: We don't have the book. Prabhupāda: What you have got? Simply your face, that's all. I'll have to see your face. Why this book is not there? Hari-śauri: It's 7.3. There was only your copies are available at the moment, and we gave it to George Harrison. Prabhupāda: And you could not secure any more. Hari-śauri: The only other copy is in New York. Prabhupāda: Any other Bhāgavata ? Just see. Reference book must be always there. This is the principle of gurukula . Now from this platform, on this understanding, you have to organize. *Jyotirmāyī: You were saying that there are mainly three principles to learn: how to be obedient, how to know, read your books and be self*-controlled. So that's what I explained to the teacher, that they should keep that. *Prabhupāda: Guru says there are four principles to be followed. They should be taught in that way. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating, no intoxication. Guru says that you chant at least sixteen . . . that should be taught, learning, rise early in the morning, that should be taught. So whatever guru say, you have to teach them perfectly, from childhood—then there will be no deviation when they are grown-up. Jyotirmāyī: We have them chant now down there. When they chant japa , they chant very enthusiastically. So the teacher himself chants . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. According to age, according to . . . but this is the principle. Gurukula means to learn how to become obedient, self*-controlled and act on behalf of guru . This is gurukula . Not to learn grammar very scholarly, grammarian. No, that is not gurukula . There are many thousand scholar —who cares for them? Put in the life. That is important. Our movement has drawn the attention of the world on account of life and the knowledge. They are finding the knowledge in the book and they are finding the practical application in life. That is the important thing. Books there are many, but the books as they are described, they are being followed. That is gurukula . Find out. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: Yes? Prabhupāda: Guror hitam . So brahmacārī , a brahmacārī should live in the gurukula for the following purposes. The first is that he should be trained up how to control the senses. So that, if you teach any child from the childhood, he'll be trained up. In that case, that female children should be separated. Jyotirmāyī: I wanted to know also what should we do once they are sixteen, because you said they should be trained in a gurukula until they are sixteen. So once they are sixteen . . . *Prabhupāda: Once Sarasvatī said that, "We have no sex with woman." (laughter) So, innocent, she does not know. So that is, if they are kept separate, they remain innocent. And they are taught that all women should be addressed as mother. Whatever you get it, self*-control. And female children should be taught how to become faithful to the husband and to learn the arts of cooking, arts of painting—that should be their subject matter. Jyotirmāyī: Painting? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sixty*-four arts, Rādhārāṇī did. Then She could control Kṛṣṇa. Jyotirmāyī: So after they have learned all the academics—reading, writing, all these . . . *Prabhupāda: Academic is ordinary, A*-B-C-D, that's all. Not very much. But these arts. They should learn how to cook nicely. Jyotirmāyī: And what should the boys be taught from ten to sixteen? *Prabhupāda: The principle is same, that when they grow up they learn the śāstra . The more they read, the more they learn. Then they become preacher, teacher. The grown*-up children, those who are fifteen, sixteen, they can teach five, six years old. Jyotirmāyī: Then they can take responsibility themselves. Prabhupāda: In this way. Elderly student . . . that is the way of Indian teaching, that there is one teacher, and how he's managing hundreds? That means there are groups. One who is elderly student, he's taking some beginners: "Write a or A like this." That he can teach. What he has learned, he can teach. Similarly, next group, next group. So in this way, one teacher can manage hundreds of students of different categories. This is organization. Not that "Everything I have to do. I cannot teach anybody to do it," that is not intelligence. Intelligence is that employ other to help you. That is intelligence. Not that "Oh, I was busy, I could not do it." Why? What about your assistant? Train assistant so that in your absence things can be done. So the elderly students, they should be . . . just Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He used to do that. When He was sixteen years old He could argue with Keśava Kāśmīrī, because He was practiced. Jyotirmāyī: And you explained that they should be . . . Prabhupāda: In this way, stage after stage, everyone should be expert. Everyone should be teacher and student. Bhagavān: The boys, they should learn how also to cook? *Prabhupāda: Huh? I never said that. Why you are bringing that question? I said the girls should be. Cooking is not boy's business. But cooking is not very difficult art. If they want, the boys can . . . (coughs) There are so many. In the Bhakti*-rasāmṛta sindhu it is stated how Rādhārāṇī was qualified. So these things should be taught to the girls. If the girls are taught to give service to the husband to the greatest satisfaction, there will be no disagreement. Yogeśvara: Can the older boys be trained in a particular kind of devotional service? For example, Press work? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Everything is devotional. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). There are varieties. We are not Māyāvādī, impersonalist, " Aham brahmasmi —finished, all business." It is not like that. So whatever business is going on in our movement, everything should be taught according to the capacity, boy or girls, it doesn't matter. Some department is suitable for the boy, some department are suitable for the girl. In this way, they should be trained up. But everyone should be trained up to give service. That is gurukula . (coughing) And brahmacārī , this sex impulse should be controlled. That ruins the whole character. Our big, big sannyāsīs are becoming victimized. So that is the danger. Woman is good, man is good; when they combine together, bad. This is the material world. Both of them are good, but when they combine together, they are bad. This is material world. In the spiritual world, there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore it is always good. Everyone is part and parcel of God, so they are good. In the spiritual world, they combine together, it becomes bad . . . in the material world. In the spiritual world there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore they are always good. So you have to train like that. In the spiritual world there are very, very beautiful woman, thousand, thousands times. Here, in the heavenly planets, they are calculated the best perfectional body of the woman. But in the spiritual world, still further. But there is no attraction of sex. They are working together, serving together, everything. But the sex attraction, there is no. They are elevated so much in the service of the Lord . . . sex attraction is a kind of pleasure. *So there are different types of pleasure. Here, if somebody, good foodstuff is there, and—that is also another sense pleasure—and by the time one beautiful woman is canvassing, "Now, come and let us enjoy," he will give up this good food. He'll go for sex, because he will think this is better than that. So one pleasure is rejected if one is engaged in better pleasure. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). So in the spiritual world the service of the Lord is so pleasing that they can neglect this sex pleasure. That is spiritual world. They have no attachment for sex pleasure. Yadāvadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāmānudyata bata nārī-saṅgame bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭu (Yāmunācārya). That is spiritual world. When one spits on the sex pleasure, that means he is elevated in spiritual life. So in the material world that is not possible. But by training, by knowledge, one can be elevated. That is gurukula . So these are the general principles. Now arrange. Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking about that, that because the girls are trained like brahmacārīnis also in the gurukula , they should be also kept very, very simple, just like the little boys, brahmacārīs . Prabhupāda: No, our life is simple. We don't want luxury. We don't want luxury, but as we are accustomed in so many ways, as far as possible. But life should be very simple. To increase unnecessary things unnecessarily, that is material life. Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking in that way—simple clothes, no jewels, just like the boys, simple . . . *Prabhupāda: Don't say "no." But give a taste for the good, then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," then he'll . . . they will rebel. The four "no's," that is very difficult. Still they are breaking. No illicit sex, they are breaking. But if they develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this will be automatically "no." So don't bring many "no's," but give them positive life. Then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," that will be a struggle. This is the psychology. (coughing) Positive engagement is devotional service. So if they are attracted by devotional service, other things will be automatically "no." Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Just like Ekādaśī day. Ekādaśī day, we observe fasting. And there are many patients in the hospital, they are also fasting, but there is no "No." They'll, within heart, "If I get, I shall eat, I shall eat." But those who are devotee, they are voluntarily "no." The same fasting is going on for the devotees and the hospital patient. And that "no" and this "no," there is difference. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. It is not meant for the mass of people, but at least if we keep a section of people ideal to the human society, they will be guided. At the present moment, there is no ideal section. Everyone is rascal, demons, rogue, everything. There is no ideal character. All politician, scientist, leader they are all drunkards and woman*-hunters. So what they can lead? There is no ideal man in the society. The politicians are giving big, big speech in the United Nation. They'll go to the same hotel where another debauchee is dancing and drinking. That's all. That is his character. Is it not? So what he will do? He can give very big speech, that's all. What is his character? There is no ideal character in the present human society. Do they appreciate our these restriction? Bhagavān: Our restrictions? Yes, they are impressed. They sometimes write about the gurukula that we are treating roughly the children by making them so austere. But every time they show the picture, the children are always happy. *Prabhupāda: (coughing) They have standardized their happiness on this principle—illicit sex, meat*-eating, gambling. That is the standard. And if you deny that, they say: "Oh, it is impossible. This is the primary principles of life." Yes. Such a big man like Ronaldsay, he said: "Oh, it is impossible." He was a big man, philosopher, very nice gentleman—still he said: "Oh, it is impossible." Bhagavān: (to Jyotirmāyī) You have any . . . Jyotirmāyī: Yes. You were saying that the children should learn these three, geography and these things, and I wanted to know if they should also learn what they call biology, that is how the body is working, what are the bones and blood and . . . Prabhupāda: What is the use? What is the use? Jyotirmāyī: Just to have some general knowledge . . . Prabhupāda: Simply waste of time. Simply waste of time. Jyotirmāyī: Even the basic of this? Prabhupāda: What is the basic? What you will know by that? Biology is going on, you study or not study. You are eating, it is transforming into blood, everyone knows. And how he's transforming into blood, what is the use? Jyotirmāyī: You were saying they should learn geography and history, just for general knowledge. Prabhupāda: That is because you have to go from America to India. You must know. (laughter) You have to calculate "Two plus two equal to four," a little mathematics. But this biology and this "logy," they are useless. There is no necessity. What you'll gain by understanding biology? Even one who knows biology, the medical man, he gives a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." "Perhaps." He's not sure. So what is the use? First of all he'll take one ounce blood from you, and they send, this station, that station, now making a chart, then he'll give a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." And this is going on. Even the biggest pathologist, medical man, cannot guarantee that whatever medicine he is giving is you . . . (break) We are not independent. Yogeśvara: Some group doctors? Some portion of the devotees, medicals knowledge? Prabhupāda: There is no harm. But when medical men are available by paying something, why should you waste your time? There are so many things we purchase, you pay for them. Not that we have to learn everything. So many things we have to do. Does it mean that you have to learn everything? Hari-śauri: There's lots of doctors, but there's no Brahmins , devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the principle is, no, don't waste time. If one has already learned medical science, all right, bring him to some service. But not that our men has to go to the medical college to learn medical science. That is not the point. Jyotirmāyī: So because we're in the country, I was taking the children in the land here and teaching them how to recognize the different plants. Is that useful, or should I not do that? Prabhupāda: Different plants? Jyotirmāyī: Plants, yes. Here we have so many different plants growing, some medical plants, some that can be eaten. Is there any use? Prabhupāda: No. Different plants, that is botanical study; *that has also no utilization. But you can teach them, "Just see, this plant is coming from earth. The earth is the mother of this plant." These things you can convince them. Is it not a fact? The grass is coming, the tree is coming, and the animal eating grass. Then the animal is coming. The man is eating food grains, then man is coming. So originally the earth is the mother, feeding everyone. Is there any denial? What do you think? So earth is the mother of all living entities, convince them. So all living entities are children. Mother earth is the mother. The father? Where is father, find out. Everyone has got idea, father, mother and children. Children are there. The mother is there. Where is the father? If somebody says: "I have not seen the father. How can I recognize father?" that does not mean . . . because the mother is there, because the children are there, there must be father. If you do not know, try to know it from your mother, from your superior—from Veda*-mātā . You have to know from the Vedas . Bhagavān: So at that young age they can very easily develop faith in Kṛṣṇa and guru . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā. *That's all. That study will be nice. Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ. Just like father gives the seed, similarly, Kṛṣṇa give the seed. The seed, when pushed into the womb of the mother and properly nourished, a rose plant comes out. This plant comes out. The seed is there. It is very easy. The father injects the seed within the womb of the mother, and the childs come out. Similarly, whatever is coming out from the earth, the seed-giving father is Kṛṣṇa. And when the seed is pushed within the womb of the mother, then the plant is coming, and everything. This nature's law is going on. Where is the necessity of understanding more than this? We understand the mother is pregnant. Now how she has been, how the child is growing, that is not under your control. It is going on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27), immediately it is in hand of the nature. Even if you study, you cannot understand how things are arranged—the intestine is joined to the navel of the child and the food is supplied, how it is mechanical . . . do you know everything? Can anyone do? Can anyone understand? But things are there. That is being done by prakṛtiḥ . Even if you study, you cannot understand. So best thing is to understand that it is being done by nature under the instruction of Supreme Lord. Let us chant Hare Kṛṣṇa instead of studying these . . . there are many students, many botanists, many . . . they, vaguely they are studying, and they have no understanding of Kṛṣṇa. They're denying, rather, the father. The child has come into existence without father. This is their knowledge. So instead of becoming such a fool and rascal, it is better not to study. Jyotirmāyī: I also thought of a way to help the children remember the *Kṛṣṇa Book* stories easier. It was . . . you started that long time ago with Madhupuri, you asked her to make the *Kṛṣṇa Book* into poem. That was long time ago in New York. Then she didn't do it . . . Prabhupāda: *Kṛṣṇa Book* is not difficult to be understood by . . . Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking if we make into poem and put music and they sing it, then they sing it they can remember . . . Prabhupāda: That you can do, to make it understandable easily. It is already easy. If you want to make more easy, then do that. Jyotirmāyī: Okay. You also allowed . . . you said that some parents can keep their children with them and teach themselves. *Prabhupāda: You follow that, brahmacārī guru*-kule vasan, that I've already explained. That should be done. Don't bring any new thing, imported ideas. That will not be helpful. It will be encumbrance. "My experiment with truth"—Gandhi's movement. Truth is truth. "Experiment" means you do not know what is truth. It is a way of life. Everything is stated there, try to train them. Simple thing. We are not going to teach biology or chemistry. They are not going to . . . our students are not going to. Our students should be fit for teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By their character, by their behavior, by their knowledge, that is wanted. Biologists, chemists, physicists and mathematicians there are hundreds and thousands. We are not going to waste our time that gurukula should produce a great grammarian, a great geologist, biologist. Don't want that. There are many other educational institutes. If you can get a good driver of your car, so what is the use of waste your time to learn driving? Is it not? If you have got important business, you can do that. Why should you waste your time to learn driving? Better employ one driver, pay him some fare. Harikeśa: You once said in Vṛndāvana that the Marwaris, they don't bother going to school because they can make a lot of money by sitting by the phone and just pay a few rupees a day and any educated fool can do the work. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they do that. They are employing in their factories big, big chemist, big, big physicist, engineer and so on, but they do not bother. They are paying thirty thousand rupees per month salary, Birla. Expert, imported from foreign countries. But their sons are never troubled. (coughing) They know how to utilize that worker of thirty thousand rupees per month and to earn thirty lakhs from him. Why shall he waste his time? He knows how to . . . they earn. They pay a man thirty thousand and through him earn thirty lakhs . Actually, in order to make a balanced society, the varṇāśrama*-dharma is very important, cooperation. So these things are meant for the śūdras. Brāhmaṇas are not meant for this. Yogeśvara: You once told me that a brāhmaṇa must know how to do everything perfectly so that he can teach others. Prabhupāda: That may be, you may be a teacher, but you'll remain only a worker. That is another thing. Just like Dronācārya, he taught, he remained a teacher. So we can become a teacher of a particular subject matter, but that does not mean you should be worker. Still, there are many professors, they are teacher; *they are not worker. But if the teachers are available, why you should become a teacher? Let them teach. We have to save our time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. After all, this, in the modern world they have invented so many varieties of occupation unnecessarily, to develop economic condition. Is it not? But our philosophy is that you cannot develop your economic condition, then you are destined to suffer or enjoy. So one should not waste his time for so*-called development of economic condition. He should utilize his time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which was not possible in any other form of life. When we had cat's and dog's life, tree's life, we could not do that, development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now we have got human form of life, we should fully utilize it for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why should we waste our time for economic development? Economic development is not possible. Then every work, every city, they are trying to develop this economic condition, but they're simply struggling. Why they word it of "Struggle for existence" is there? It is not possible. Why there are varieties of social position? Everyone could come on the same standard. That is not possible. Anywhere you go, the three classes of men—upper class, middle class and lower class—is there. Is there any country where there is no these three classes, only the upper class? Is there any country? Yogeśvara: No. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use? (coughing) Anywhere you'll go, you'll find this upper class, (coughing) middle class and lower class. When I . . . in the beginning, I thought that America, everyone is richer class. So when I came, I saw the three classes are already there. The lower class, although the country has good facilities not to become lower class, still, voluntarily they are hippies, lower class. They are lying on the street. Although he has got very good opportunity to become first class, but he is lying on the street. Why? What is the answer? British Empire, London, the one is lying on the bench. New York, lying on the bench. There is no sufficient clothing. Why? Actually, he can live very comfortably, but why he's living in that condition? What is the answer? Harikeśa: It's his nature. *Prabhupāda: No, he has to live in that way. That is his destiny. You cannot change it by artificial ways. Even if he has got all the facilities, he will have to live like that. That is nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅgo 'sya sad*-asad janma yoniṣu (BG 13.22). This is . . . so therefore there is no use of so-called improvement. And you cannot do it. This is a fact. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovido. Find out this verse. Na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ . Your standard of happiness and distress must be there, because you are destined by the laws of nature. You have to suffer although you are born in America. In New York you can get very comfortable life there; *still, you have lie down on bench, "Lie down." Although you are born of a rich man's family, you have to become hippies: "Lie down here." Who can check this? What is that law. Do they know it? But there is a law. There will be a first class, second class, third class, fourth class. You cannot check it. Huh? That New York City, so cared for. Nasty road, streets. And always, every moment— dung*-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung, gu-gu-gu-gu-gu-gu-gu —fire. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka . Fire is blazing. Despite all arrangement, fire is blazing. How can you stop it? Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, saṁsāra-biṣānale, dibaniśi hiya jvale (Hari Hari Biphale 2). The blazing fire of poison is always going on. Taribāre nā kāinu upāya. And one has to make ways how to get out of this fire. That is intelligence. Read that. Harikeśa: "Persons who are actually intelligent and philosophically inclined should endeavor only for that purposeful end which is not obtainable even by wandering from the topmost planet (Brahmaloka) down to the lowest planet (Pātāla). As far as happiness derived from sense enjoyment is concerned, it can be obtained automatically in course of time, just as in course of time we obtain miseries, even though we do not desire them." Prabhupāda: This is philosophy. What is the purport? *Harikeśa: "Every man everywhere is trying to obtain the greatest amount of sense enjoyment for various endeavors. Some of them are busy engaged in trade, industry, economic development, political supremacy, etc., and some of them are engaged in fruitive work to become happy in the next life by attaining higher planets. It is said that in the moon the inhabitants are fit for greater sense enjoyment by drinking soma*-rasa , and the Pitrloka is obtained by good charitable work. So there are various programs for sense enjoyment, either during this life or in the life after death." *Prabhupāda: Such a pleasing planet, and these rascals say there is no life. The moon is described everywhere, the most pleasing planet. Actually, when there is moon in the sky, how it is pleasing. So that planet is meant for the high*-class pious persons, and they get their life for ten thousands of years. They live very comfortably, drink soma-rasa. These are the description we get from śāstra . And these rascals say it is desert. And we have to believe them. And practically we see how pleasing it is. As soon as the moon planet is there, the whole atmosphere becomes pleasing. And it is desert. And we have to believe these rascal scientists and disregard the description of the śāstra . What do you think? Is that very good intelligence? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: We disregard the statement of Vyāsadeva, and we have to accept the statement of a rascal drunkard. (laughter) We are not so unfortunate. So unfortunate, they can believe that. We cannot believe. Yogeśvara: Now they have published pictures of Mars. Prabhupāda: Let them do that, befool others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). Because others, they are blind, this blind man, whatever he says, they believe. They will say, "Perhaps ten millions of years ago there was life, perhaps." These things are going on. But we know every planet is full of living entity. There is regular life and there are streets. The streets are paved with pearls, corals, in Svargaloka. We have got information. And what is their information? Scratching some sand and bring it, that's all. As if sand is not available. But we give information there are planets where the pavements are with pearls. Go and bring some pearls. There is the ocean of milk. Bring some milk from there. And then we shall understand that you are making some research. Simply all over the universe dry sand? And here the population is increasing. Just see. We have to believe all this. Everything is by nature vacant, and all people and animals are here. And we have to believe that. Hmm. Read it. They are exposing more and more about their nonsensical scientific inquiry. Harikeśa: "Some are trying to reach the moon or other planets by some mechanical arrangement, for they are very anxious to get into such planets without doing good work. But it is not to happen. By the law of the Supreme, different places are meant for different grades of living beings according to the work they might have performed. By good work only, as prescribed in the scriptures, one can obtain birth in a good family, opulence, good education and good bodily features. We see also that even in this life one obtains a good education or money or bodily beauty. Similarly, in our next birth we get such desirable positions only by good work. Otherwise it would not so happen that two persons born in the same place at the same time are seen differently placed according to the previous work. But all such material positions are not permanent. The positions in the topmost Brahmaloka and in the lowest Pātāla are also changeable according to our own work. The philosophically inclined person must not be tempted by such changeable positions. He should try to get into the permanent life of bliss and knowledge where he will not be forced to come back again to the miserable material world, either in this or that planet. Miseries and mixed happiness are two features of material life, and they are obtained in Brahmaloka and in other lokas also. They are obtained in the life of the demigods and also in the life of the dogs and hogs. The miseries and mixed happiness of all living beings are only of different degree in quality, but no one is free from the miseries of birth, death, old age and disease. Similarly, everyone has his destined happiness also. No one can get more or less of these things simply by personal endeavors. Even if they are obtained, they can be lost again. One should not, therefore, waste time with these flimsy things, but one should only endeavor to go back to Godhead. That should be the mission of everyone's life." *Prabhupāda: That is our position. We should not waste a single moment for so*-called material things, happiness. Best save time and utilize it for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all right? Yogeśvara: Any more? Jyotirmāyī: Yes, and just one more. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jyotirmāyī: Because you were saying that the parents can keep their children and teach them themselves, like Arundhatī is teaching Aniruddha. So does it mean that the parents can . . . Prabhupāda: He complained that, "My boy is not being properly . . ." So I said that, "You teach your son." Jyotirmāyī: And she can keep him and teach him all the time? Until he's older and so on? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. That is the duty of the father and mother. Along with that, he can teach others also. (coughing) These things are to be organized. But some way or other, our students should be given education and spiritual life, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Individually, collectively, somehow or other. The principle is laid down there, brahmacārī guru*-kule vasan dānto guror-hitam . That's the beginning. Everything is there, we have to simply follow. We haven't got to manufacture anything. That is waste of time. Whatever is there, you follow. Is that all right? Devotees: Yes. Thank you. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) *Yogeśvara: . . . hand*-loomed silk. Prabhupāda: Thailand silk. (coughing) Yogeśvara: Yes. He has invited me to go to Thailand to meet the Prime Minister in October. Prabhupāda: Oh, if there is interview, you must go. Yogeśvara: Yes. Perhaps you would like to tell me on what level I should present our movement. *Prabhupāda: On the level of Bhagavad*-gītā . God is the supreme controller, and we have to learn how to remain peacefully under the supreme controller. Just like citizens and the government. Good citizenship means one who lives under the control of the government. Similarly, good person means one is God conscious and lives according to the instruction of God. So there is instruction of God, (coughing) we are presenting this all over the world. Yogeśvara: And they should give us some facilities? Prabhupāda: Yes. "We want to preach. Here also, if you give us facility, we can preach. That is after your interest." Yogeśvara: This one gentleman has already offered one house in Bangkok. He's put at our disposal, in the middle of the city, a very beautiful house. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is very nice. Yogeśvara: But now I'm wondering how should this should be managed, who should take charge of this project. Prabhupāda: No, we can send some men from India. Bangkok is not far away from India. If we get a living place, then we can find out. When there are rice thrown, the crows will come. If there is no rice, how the crows will come? This is the philosophy. (laughter) If there is living place, then many crows will come. Yogeśvara: So we can first go and see the situation and then contact our men in India. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Men will be supplied from India. What is his name? Send him some thanks. Yogeśvara: Yes, Mr. Boonsoong. I'll give it to you now. Jaya , very nice. Prabhupāda: He's a Hong Kong man? Yogeśvara: No, he is from Thailand. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Bangkok. Yogeśvara: And he's a multimillionaire. He owns approximately one third of all the land in Thailand. Prabhupāda: Oh! Hari-śauri: Very important man. Yogeśvara: Chairman of many big businesses. Prabhupāda: You have given books? Yogeśvara: He has received books. Prabhupāda: Where you met him? Yogeśvara: His former secretary is now a devotee in this temple. She is from Thailand. And when he came to visit her in Paris, she introduced me to him, and since then he has spoken about us to his family, to businessmen. Many big people in Thailand. Hari-śauri: People in Thailand are quite pious. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are Indian culture. Their original culture is Indian. It is called Siam (pronounces like Śyām ), Kṛṣṇa's name. And they have got the airplane, Garuda. Hari-śauri: Yes. Garuda Airlines. Prabhupāda: So they are devotees originally, all Kṛṣṇa devotees. Yogeśvara: The king is speaking Sanskrit. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It was known. It has been changed now. Formerly, (coughing) it was known as Syam state, Siam. Syam is the name of Kṛṣṇa. Whole state was named under Kṛṣṇa. So, and they manufacture very nice idol of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. They're accustomed. Hari-śauri: They have a very strong Buddhist influence there now. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Buddhist. Prabhupāda: Later on, they became Buddhist, but originally they were Vaiṣṇava. Yogeśvara: So they will not make some objection if they are thinking we have come to preach Hinduism in a Buddhist country? Prabhupāda: It is not . . . don't establish Deity. Talk on philosophy. Yogeśvara: "God is the supreme controller." Prabhupāda: Yes. We accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God. Show in our books that we have got all respect for Buddha. We do not disrespect Lord Buddha, neither go against him. (coughing) Anyway, if we get one house to live and a supporter, a big supporter, then our position will be secure. And if our cause is honest, then nobody can check. Yogeśvara: He has said that first I should come and speak to the Prime Minister and then speak at the University, and then see the reaction, and then we can go to see the king and say that this has been the reaction at the universities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it organizedly. They understand French language? Yogeśvara: Yes, English and French. They are very close to Vietnam. They speak French. Prabhupāda: Very good. Take this opportunity. (coughing) Yogeśvara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (end) Conversation A -- August 2, 1976, New Mayapur Hari-śauri: The whole country could be like this if everybody was Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Prabhupāda: Very peacefully you can live. In the city you go, thousands of cars are running— ror*-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror. What is called? Flyway, expressway, downway. Every ten yards stop for the light. (laughter) How artificial life. And with all these things, if people would have been happy, all right. But they're not happy, in spite of all this advancement. Hari-śauri: Yes. Simply increasing their miseries. Prabhupāda: That's all. Problems. Hari-śauri: The bigger the buildings, the more anxiety they're in. Prabhupāda: Not only many cars, they new construct, new roads, new . . . increasing business, in the hope of happiness. But there is no happiness. Hari-śauri: Happiness is the last consideration. Prabhupāda: They are thinking that, "In this way we shall be happy." Hari-śauri: Get more money. *Prabhupāda: First of all, paved way, then flyway, then another flyway, then another flyway. In this way. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ ( SB 7.5.31). Hari-śauri: They're always striving for happiness, that's all. They never achieve it, they never get there. Prabhupāda: No. That is called māyā . Just like the animal is running after the mirage, water, but there is no water. Hari-śauri: He simply runs until he dies. Prabhupāda: That's all. This is going on. *Hari-śauri: Dogs on four wheels. (laughs) It was so nice sitting underneath the tree there, chanting. I was thinking this is what we could do forever, twenty*-four hours. No need to do anything else. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: Prospective place, this. Very future prospect. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. We're buying these big properties now. We don't have so many devotees, but we know just even in five years they're going to be packed. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Hari-śauri: Maybe now we don't have so many devotees for all these big places we're buying, but even just in five years or ten years they'll be full up. We'll have to expand more and more. Your idea for fifty percent for books, fifty percent for buildings, it's very wonderful. I remember in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta you said that the book distribution and the establishment of temples should go parallel lines, side by side. Prabhupāda: Going on. Up to date, to my satisfaction, it is going on. Hari-śauri: If you're satisfied, then we know it's going to be successful. Prabhupāda: But they fight amongst themselves, the GBCs. Hari-śauri: Hmm, that's the problem. Prabhupāda: I did not see Harikeśa. Hari-śauri: He was there. Prabhupāda: Oh, he was there? Hari-śauri: Yes. He's been feeling a bit ill today. Prabhupāda: Oh. This is thyme herbs? No. This is the seed. Hari-śauri: Oh, them. They grow it in the garden. The first, what you got, that was grown here. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Those twigs? They were grown here in the garden. Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) Hari-śauri: Would you like anything tonight? A piece of Chyavana Prash ? (Harikeśa enters) Prabhupāda: What is that? Harikeśa: This boy brought this. I wanted to just ask you if this was any good or not. This is nutmeg oil. Hari-śauri: This is the oil I was telling you about. *Harikeśa: And this is All*-Brand . . . Axe Brand Universal Oil, supposed to be for massages or something. Prabhupāda: Chinese? Harikeśa: (indistinct) . . . this is Chinese. Hari-śauri: It's got different . . . says menthol crystal, peppermint oil, eucalyptol oil, menthol salicilate, oil of lavender, chloroform BP, camphor powder and white oil. Prabhupāda: What is for? Harikeśa: Supposed to be for massaging. Hari-śauri: It's supposed to help the muscles. Prabhupāda: And what is this? Harikeśa: It's got the cap on it. Hari-śauri: Nutmeg oil. This is the one I was telling you about. Harikeśa: Take the cap off. Prabhupāda: They're all selling all this? Hari-śauri: No, this is not ours. Harikeśa: Rādhe-Śyāma dāsa brought this. Hari-śauri: It was brought by one of the devotees from . . . Thailand, was it? *Harikeśa: He was in Kuala*-Lumpur. Hari-śauri: He says he bought it from a Buddhist temple, big Buddhist temple. *Prabhupāda: Kuala*-Lumpur? There is a big Buddhist temple I know, I went there. Harikeśa: He said in a letter, he just wrote a little letter to you, that . . . you laid a cornerstone on some temple? About three, four years ago? *Prabhupāda: Kuala*-Lumpur? Yes. Harikeśa: It's finished. It cost a million dollars. And he says this man wants to give it to us. Prabhupāda: Oh, something, that gentleman . . . Harikeśa: It's a rather nice letter. Prabhupāda: Written by him? Harikeśa: No, this boy who was there. I'll bring him tomorrow. Prabhupāda: So we can take it. Yes. This is nice idea he has got. He has spent millions of dollars? Harikeśa: One million on the temple. Prabhupāda: Oh? How he got the money? Harikeśa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Maybe he was rich man. Hari-śauri: This was made in Penang. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Penang. Prabhupāda: Penang? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Penang also I visited. I stayed with one Indian gentleman. His wife made very nice kachorī . Hari-śauri: It doesn't matter wherever you go around the world . . . *Prabhupāda: They asked: "What you want to eat?" "If you can, you make first*-class kachorī ." That is from my childhood. My friends also did it. They'd make the first-class kachorīs in my youthhood. I am fond of kachorī. Kachorī is made first class in Mathurā, Agra and Mathurā. Very, very nice. The kachorī is being made, hundreds of customers waiting. At shops, there was many shops, waiting for purchasing. And as soon as it comes out of the pan, immediately sold. There is no question of waiting. They make so spices. That is India's craftmanship. Nobody will starve. If you have no business, he'll prepare something palatable and people will purchase, all over India. Hari-śauri: There's so many people on the railway station selling. Prabhupāda: There's no question of starvation for want of money. Anywhere sit down and do something palatable, and people will purchase. So your livelihood will go on. Pakorā, kachorī, jalebī , anything. You make some palatable, people are fond of eating some palatable things. That is their hobby. In Allahabad, there was a brāhmaṇa . I had my business, and he was neighborhood, he was living. So in the morning, the husband and wife would go to take bath in the Ganges. They would very nicely take bath, and while coming they will purchase some ingredients and then come home. The husband will perform pūjā , etcetera, and the wife will prepare many nice preparations— barā, pakorī, puchka (Indian snack), this, that. Then he'll take his meals, rest awhile, and in the evening he will sit down—he was sitting just in front of my shop—about four or five o'clock. All the preparations his wife had made whole day, and the small shop. And the university students will come up to night. Ten o'clock, he'll finish. Nothing will remain. Everything will be . . . and he'll make at least ten rupees' profit, minimum. In those days, 1925, in those days ten rupees means nowadays quite . . . at least fifty rupees. So, and living very happily. Living humbly as a brāhmaṇa , he was having his pūjā , going to the Ganges, taking bath, husband and wife, in the morning, and the wife's business is to prepare and his business was to sell. So they'll make at least ten, fifteen rupees' profit daily, very prosperous, living peacefully, husband and wife. There are many such family. The . . . if wife is very good, then his home is very nice. They cannot be unhappy at any circumstances. Dampatyoḥ kalaho nāsti tatra śrīḥ svayam āgataḥ. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. When there is full agreement between husband and wife, cooperation, then the goddess of fortune comes there without application. You haven't got to ask goddess of fortune, "Please come and help me." She'll come automatically. This is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. There are so many things in India culture for becoming happy and advancing towards the goal of life. Now I am appreciating for more and more, seeing the whole world, what is India's culture. Formerly I was thinking, "It is custom. To become faithful wife, this is custom." But when I come outside I see what is wife and what is faithful wife. In India, still, in the village, even there is fight between husband, wife, the wife is faithful. Still. Completely dependent on husband. The husband also, in spite of fighting, he is always careful that the wife does not get any inconvenience. It was the culture; now it is breaking. You can close that. In material world, for peaceful life there must be peaceful condition between the husband and wife. Everyone requires wife, everyone requires husband. (aside) Inside also do. Sex is necessary, so make the condition of sex very peacefully. Why disturbed? Make the condition that there will be . . . it is necessary. As eating is necessary, sleeping is necessary, for ordinary man, so sex is also necessary. So make a condition so that nothing will be disturbed, and in undisturbed condition of mind execute spiritual advancement. This is Indian civilization. Aim is spiritual advancement. And to make condition favorable, there are so many things. So unless we get favorable condition . . . here in the Western countries there is no favorable condition. First of all, they have no idea of spiritual life, the goal of life, neither there is favorable condition. And gradually things are becoming degrading. On my last tour in Chicago I saw. In three weeks she has twice divorced, one lady advertised. You remember it? Hari-śauri: I wasn't there that time. Harikeśa: I remember. Prabhupāda: You were there, yes. Is that life? How they can be happy if this is the condition? (pause) Prabhupāda: So what further advancement? Harikeśa: In reference? Hari-śauri: Tehran. Harikeśa: Oh, your tickets are definitely booked on the nonstop flight. I finally managed to . . . Prabhupāda: . . . take the ticket. Oh, we have got ticket. Harikeśa: The reservation, I mean . . . and if for some reason we can't get on that flight, we have reservations on another flight that arrives at . . . arrives four hours later. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Harikeśa: It changes. It leaves earlier and gets there four hours later. Was lunch all right today? Lunch? Your lunch was all right? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Was lunch all right? Prasādam ? Prabhupāda: The potatoes and karelā , it should be fried. Harikeśa: Yes, it was fried. I fried it with the cover on. Prabhupāda: No, not in the beginning. Fry it, and if it is still hard, then . . . Harikeśa: Then put the cover on. Oh, all right. Prabhupāda: Yes, not from beginning. Harikeśa: Oh, I made a mistake. Prabhupāda: If you cover from the beginning, the water which is already there, they will be coming out. And the idea is the water should be taken away. Then it will be tasteful. Still, it was good. Harikeśa: Should I cook if I still have this fever tomorrow? Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: Right now I have a fever. Prabhupāda: No, don't cook. Harikeśa: So if I have a fever I shouldn't cook for you? It's unhealthy for you, or . . .? Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: It won't bother me so much, but if it's unhealthy for you . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, I have no objection. But if you have got fever, why shall you? There are so many others. They can cook. Harikeśa: I cannot tolerate being sick any more. Prabhupāda: The body means sickness. The body itself is sickness. Harikeśa: In illusion I think I come back here, I get healthy. In illusion I think if I leave India and come here I will get healthy. But I come here, I also get sick. I go there, I also get sick. (laughs) You seem to be much better now. Prabhupāda: Yes, little better. (pause) (devotees leave) *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . thinking of how to utilize the whole land. The situation is very good, good prospect. I want that self*-independent here, as far as possible. But you have got enough materials. With woods you can make cottages. Then land becomes clear, then utilize it. Bhagavān: Cows. Prabhupāda: Cows, so many things. Free from all anxieties, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Life is meant for simply chanting. This should be the motto. But because we have got this body, we have to maintain it. That much. Otherwise, we have no ambition to become a very big man in this material world, enjoy it. This is all false, useless. He'll become a big man, and one day death comes and kicks him out. Just see. So these are all false attempts. It has no meaning. The meaningful life is, so long we live, become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. And tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). That is wanted. Give facility to the people. Here is very nice arrangement. Now make plan how to utilize. You have got enough land. You can utilize for supplying the necessities of life. Bhagavān: Yes. It's a very wonderful place. Prabhupāda: Yes. We can get many wonderful places like this all over the world. But they have not been taught how to utilize them. Bhagavān: I think in one year they have done nicely. They have built a greenhouse and planted all the cultivated land. Prabhupāda: No, they are working hard, there is no doubt about it. Bhagavān: And the temple also, Deity worship and everything. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Things are going nicely. There is no doubt about it. And children should be given that much education—to read and write and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Bhagavān: The devotees are talking how nice it was to sit outside with you and chant and hear you speak tonight. I remember the last time I was in New Vrindavan many years ago, when I first became a devotee. You were sitting outside, giving some lecture, series of lectures on Vyāsadeva and the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I like this life, from my very childhood. And on our roof there were trees, er, plants, flower plants, and . . . my grandmother, she . . . we, all grandchildren used to water it. So downstairs we took water in, what is called? A jhāri ? Bhagavān: Sprinkling can? Prabhupāda: Ah, sprinkling can. We all grandchildren, we were about half a dozen. So we took very much pleasure in watering. But my special tendency was that along with the plants, I, with the bushes, I'll sit down. My tendency. And I'll sit down for hours. I liked that, in my childhood. In my maternal uncle's house also, I was doing that. As soon as I find some bush, I make a sitting place. Bhagavān: It's hard to see how people could not be attracted to such a nice life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: And more and more people are coming. Prabhupāda: They'll come. First of all, this life is not for every man. Most fortunate man. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. Kona. Kona means someone; *it is not for everyone. Kona bhāgyavān . Find out this verse, Nineteenth Chapter, Madhya*-līlā. Bhagavān: (devotees look for verse) Brahmāṇḍa bhramite ? *Prabhupāda: Brahmāṇḍa bhramite. Guru*-kṛṣṇa. Find out. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā pāya. *Hari-śauri: Guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja . Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: "According to their karma , all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service." Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not for everyone. *Hari-śauri: There's a nice purport. Should I do the purport? "When we speak of brahmāṇḍa , we refer to the whole universe, or to the cluster of many millions of universes. In all universes, there are innumerable planets and innumerable living entities upon those planets in the air and in the water. There are millions and trillions of living entities everywhere, and they are engaged by māyā in suffering and enjoying the results of their fruitive activity life after life. This is the position of the materially conditioned living entities. Out of many of these living entities, if one is actually fortunate, he comes in contact with a bona fide spiritual master by Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart, and if one desires something, Kṛṣṇa fulfills one's desire. If the living entity by chance or fortune comes in contact with the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and wishes to associate with that movement, Kṛṣṇa, who is situated in everyone's heart, gives him the chance to meet a bona fide spiritual master. This is called guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāda . Kṛṣṇa is prepared to bestow His mercy upon all living entities, and as soon as a living entity desires the Lord's mercy, the Lord immediately gives him an opportunity to meet a bona fide spiritual master. Such a person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master. He is helped from within by Kṛṣṇa and from without by the spiritual master. Both are prepared to help the sincere living being become free from this material bondage." *"How one can become this fortunate can be seen in the life of Nārada Muni. In his previous life he was born of a maidservant. Although he was not born into a prestigious position, his mother was fortunately engaged in rendering service to some Vaiṣṇavas. When these Vaiṣṇavas were resting during the cāturmāsya period, the boy Nārada took the opportunity to engage in their service. Taking compassion upon the boy, the Vaiṣṇavas offered him the remnants of their food. By serving them and obeying their orders, the boy became the object of sympathy for the Vaiṣṇavas, and, by the Vaiṣṇavas' unknown mercy, he gradually became a pure devotee. In the next life he was Nārada Muni, the most exalted of Vaiṣṇavas and the most important guru and ācārya of Vaiṣṇavas. Following in the footsteps of Nārada Muni, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is rendering service to humanity by giving everyone a chance to come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. If one is fortunate, he becomes intimately related with this movement. Then, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one's life becomes successful. Everyone has dormant kṛṣṇa*-bhakti, love for Kṛṣṇa, and in the association of good devotees that love is revealed. As stated in Caitanya-caritāmṛta :" *"Dormant devotional service to Kṛṣṇa is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , dormant love for Kṛṣṇa is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151)." Prabhupāda: Then? Then? No, it is not finished? Hari-śauri: No, this is finished. Prabhupāda: Next verse? Hari-śauri: "When a person receives the seed of devotional service, he should take care of it by becoming a gardener and sowing the seed in his heart. If he waters the seed gradually by the process of śravaṇa and kīrtana (hearing and chanting), the seed will begin to sprout." *Purport: "To live with devotees or to live in a temple means to associate with the śravaṇa*-kīrtana process. Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution of śravaṇa-kīrtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who engaged in the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity. However, one should not falsely imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura and abandon Deity worship just to try to engage in śravaṇa-kīrtana . This is not possible for neophyte devotees." *"The word guru*-prasāda indicates that the spiritual master is very merciful in bestowing the boon of devotional service upon the disciple. That is the best possible gift the spiritual master has to offer. Those with a background of pious life are eligible to receive life's supreme benefit, and to bestow this benefit, the Supreme Personality of Godhead sends His representative to impart His mercy. Endowed with the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the spiritual master distributes the mercy to those who are elevated and pious. Thus the spiritual master trains his disciples to render devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called gurukṛpā . It is kṛṣṇa-prasāda , Kṛṣṇa's mercy, that He sends a bona fide spiritual master to the deserving disciple. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, one meets the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of the spiritual master, the disciple is fully trained in the devotional service of the Lord." *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja means 'the seed of devotional service.' Everything has an original cause, or seed. For any idea, program, plan or device, there is first of all the contemplation of the plan, and that is called bīja , or the seed. The methods, rules and regulations by which one is perfectly trained in devotional service constitute the bhakti-latā-bīja, or the seed of devotional service. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received from the spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Other seeds are called anyābhilāṣa-bīja, karma-bīja and jñāna-bīja . If one is not fortunate enough to receive the bhakti-latā-bīja from the spiritual master, he instead cultivates the seeds of karma-bīja, jñāna-bīja or political and social or philanthropic bīja . However, bhakti-latā-bīja is different from these other bījas. Bhakti-latā-bīja can be received only through the mercy of the spiritual master. Therefore one has to satisfy the spiritual master to get bhakti-latā-bīja ( yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ )." *" Bhakti*-latā-bīja is the origin of devotional service. Unless one satisfies the spiritual master, he gets the bīja , or root cause, of karma , jñāna and yoga without the benefit of devotional service. However, one who is faithful to his spiritual master gets the bhakti-latā-bīja. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master. After receiving the spiritual master's mercy, one must repeat his instructions, and this is called śravaṇa-kīrtana —hearing and chanting. One who has not properly heard from the spiritual master or who does not follow the regulative principles is not fit for chanting ( kīrtana ). This is explained in Bhagavad-gītā : vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana (BG 2.41). One who has not listened carefully to the instructions of the spiritual master is unfit to chant or preach the cult of devotional service. One has to water the bhakti-latā-bīja after receiving instructions from the spiritual master." I remember in Hawaii, this section here, it says a person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, and you said that Kṛṣṇa gives you the weapon and the spiritual master sharpens it, the weapon of knowledge, and in that way we can cut free from material bondage. Prabhupāda: The classes should be regularly held. Those who are engaged in the field work, then let them work, but woman or others, they should hear in the class. They should attend. Bhagavān: There is regular class for everyone in the afternoon, after prasādam . Prabhupāda: That's nice. ( kīrtana heard from downstairs) What they are saying now? Bhagavān: Downstairs? " Haribol ." People cannot understand how just by chanting enthusiastic kīrtana so many problems can be solved. Prabhupāda: Yes. What they understand, all rascals? Wasting time. Going to the moon planet, going to the Mars planet. Why? What you will gain? Still they are going. Simply spending money. In Bengal it is called ostrādi. Ostrādi , in English? One who places himself as very intelligent leader. What is called in one word? Bhagavān: Presumptuous? Prabhupāda: Presumptuous? Bhagavān: Presumes he's something that he's . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is a very nice word. Hari-śauri: An imposter? Prabhupāda: Imposter is falsely. It is not exactly falsely. Beginning with "p." (Hari-śauri looking in dictionary) Do you find there teacher ? Teachers , other things? Hari-śauri: Teacher? Prabhupāda: Teacher, and other synonyms. Find out the teacher . They have got so many synonyms. Hari-śauri: Teacher: "Educator, instructor, preceptor, master, tutor, coach, schoolmaster, schoolmistress, schoolmarm, pedagogue." Prabhupāda: Pedagogue, yes, this word. Hari-śauri: Pedagogy . . . how do you pronounce this word? Prabhupāda: Pedagogue. Hari-śauri: Yes. Pedagogue. Prabhupāda: This word, now you see what is the pedagogue in dictionary. Pedigree. Pedagogue—pedagogue or predagogue? Hari-śauri: Pedagogue. Here we are. "Pedagogue: schoolmaster, teacher." That's all it gives. "Pedagogy, science of teaching." Bhagavān: "Implying pedagy." Look up pedagy . "Implying pedagy." It says: "Usually derogatory." *Hari-śauri: Oh, "Pedant—one who overrates or parades book*-learning or technical knowledge or insists on strict adherence to formal rules. One always possessed by theory doctrinaire." Prabhupāda: Yes, this word. Hari-śauri: Pedant. Prabhupāda: Pedagogue? Bhagavān: Pedagogue is the first, yes. Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Hari-śauri: P*-e-d-a-g-o-g-u-e. *Prabhupāda: Peda. Peda. P-e-d*-a . *Hari-śauri: Yeah. P*-e-d-a-g-o-g-u-e. Pedagogue. Prabhupāda: Oh. Pedagogue. Not pedi , but peda . Hari-śauri: Pedagogue. Prabhupāda: Pedagogue. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: So they are going on, pedagogue. *Hari-śauri: And the other one is pedant. Pedant, "One who overrates or parades book*-learning." Prabhupāda: Pedantry, there is a word. Our Harikeśa was speaking that if they do not say there is life in Mars, then their whole propaganda will fail. Hari-śauri: Yes, I was saying that this morning. Prabhupāda: This time, if they say that there is no life in the Mars, they'll never get next chance, he said. I think it is meaningful. Bhagavān: It will substantiate our claim. Prabhupāda: No, our claim intelligent. They are loitering. Our claim is that they do not know anything about that. All foolish propaganda. But their position is that unless they say that there is life, then their this false propaganda will no longer run on. We are certain that they cannot go there, neither is it possible to understand what is there. Simply imagination. We do not give any credit. (pause) Hari-śauri: You said you had some plan? For the land here? When we came in, you were saying you had some plan for the land. Prabhupāda: Plan is that we have got woods. Cut the woods, make small cottages, and engage them for growing fruits, flowers, grains, and make the complete arrangement nicely. Water . . . Hari-śauri: Irrigation. Prabhupāda: In this way make it evergreen. Bhagavān: There was a question about the cows, that at what point should the calf be separated from the mother. Because sometimes when the calf is separated, the mother, she cries. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why separation? They should be given chance to drink milk. Bhagavān: But isn't there a point? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhagavān: There is a point when the calf is taken away from the mother? Prabhupāda: No, they should not be taken away. Bhagavān: Shouldn't be. Hari-śauri: I think in all our farms they do that. Bhagavān: I heard in New Vrindavan they took them away very early. Hari-śauri: The problem is that the calves drink so much milk that they become very sick, so they have to separate. Prabhupāda: Therefore they should not be allowed always. Once in a day, that's all. Hari-śauri: Oh. Prabhupāda: Not too much allowed, but once. At least when milking they should be allowed to drink little milk, and that will encourage the mother to deliver more milk. Hari-śauri: Oh. At the same time they're milking the cow, the calf can come. Prabhupāda: Yes. They can bring it, milk. And while milking, the calf may be standing before the mother. Hari-śauri: They do that in India. Prabhupāda: So she will not be sorry. Bhagavān: That's nice. Prabhupāda: Completely separation is not good. And after birth, at least for one week the calf should be allowed. Because after this giving birth, the milk is not fit for human consumption. The calf should not be allowed to eat more, but at the same time the mother must see once, twice. Then it will be all right. Of course, we are born in big, big towns; we do not know. But I know this is the process. In Allahabad I was keeping cow. There was facility. Bhagavān: I don't think our farms are doing like that. In New Vrindavan they do? Hari-śauri: What, letting the calves come? I don't think so. You can write a letter to them. The whole system's so perfect. It's completely satisfying in every respect. Prabhupāda: And if you make others dissatisfied for your pleasure, that is sinful. You should act in such a way that nobody is dissatisfied. Then there is balance. Hari-śauri: Expert management. Prabhupāda: You have got puffed rice? Hari-śauri: They may have some in the kitchen. I can check. They have flat rice. Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: Puffed rice. This Chyavana Prash , it says five to ten grams every morning with milk. Prabhupāda: With milk. Five to ten grams. Hari-śauri: Yes, that's like a spoonful. That's like a heaped spoonful. I think that's about what you're getting there. Prabhupāda: What we take, that is five to ten grams? Hari-śauri: Approximately. Maybe a little more. Prabhupāda: How much milk it is? Hari-śauri: Doesn't say, it just says with milk. So according to taste. Do you like to take . . . Prabhupāda: So in the morning. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: I'll go and find out about this . . . Prabhupāda: Puffed rice. (break) Bhagavān: (background discussion with devotees) Where is your husband? (devotees bring in vegetables) Zucchini? Hari-śauri: This is zucchini? This? Bhagavān: Yes. We should show Prabhupāda each thing that we're doing. (break) Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Everything's grown on the farm, he said. Devotee (1): These are flowers which decorate the vases. They are very tall. They put in the vases every day on the altar, Kṛṣṇa. And this morning . . . you have been there? Taking garlands made out of this. It smells very nice. And that's the carnation. It was the one I gave you yesterday on your walk. It has a very nice scent. Prabhupāda: No, you have got this cucumber? Devotee (1): Yes, there is cucumber. Prabhupāda: So if fresh, why not eat? Hari-śauri: We have fresh cucumber every day. Prabhupāda: But when I take it, it does not appear to be fresh. Devotee (1): These are bulk cucumbers. Devotee (2): This is fresh cucumber from the garden. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Tomorrow. Prabhupāda: The cucumber which is supplied to me, that is not fresh. Devotee (1): It is from the market. We were not aware that they had cucumber in the garden, because I asked . . . Prabhupāda: You are not aware? Why not? Devotee (1): I was not aware. Hari-śauri: He's our supplier. Prabhupāda: At least one cucumber, and this chili, you can make a nice salad. You say that there's no peas? Hari-śauri: There's no peas in the garden. Devotee (1): They are just ready actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They're just ready for picking now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (1): Beans you have had every day from the garden. Hari-śauri: Beans are very stringy. Devotee (1): Grapes. Prabhupāda: Oh, so many fresh things. Devotee (1): From the greenhouse they are, actually. Hari-śauri: What is this? Devotee (1): That is zucchini, only very small. (laughter) We let them get big to feed so many devotees. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Very nice, very fresh. So many things can be done. Hari-śauri: This is zucchini? Devotee (1): This is the same thing. Devotee (2): They call it marrow. Prabhupāda: This called, this is . . . I do not know what you call. It is called komura . It is very nice. Hari-śauri: We used to call them marrows. Zucchinis are small. Devotee (1): Tomato. It's an Italian type of tomato, and there's another one. Prabhupāda: This is apple? Devotee (1): Yes, that's for cooking. Hari-śauri: Cabbage. Devotee (1): Pears. Bhagavān: They're growing chickpeas. Devotee (1): Oh, chickpeas also, yes. Bhagavān: They're not ripe yet. Devotee (1): You can see inside, inside the pod, one chickpea. They have to go yellow on the plant, and then we pick them and then put them in sacks for the winter. Bhagavān: We have a whole field planted of chickpea. They're very expensive here, so it's nice. Prabhupāda: So you have got immediately some pods? Devotee (1): And also you have been taking the fresh coriander, dhaniya . Prabhupāda: Oh, nice. So, this pod? Devotee (1): Peas, beans. Prabhupāda: You have got some? Devotee (1): Yes, plenty, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (2): For tomorrow? Prabhupāda: Bring all them. (laughter) Hari-śauri: He supplies us every day. What's this? Woman devotee: This is lemon spinach. Devotee (1): A type of sour spinach. Tasty. Bhagavān: Tastes like a lemon. Prabhupāda: Yes. (tries it) Very good. Bhagavān: Anything else hidden in here? This is our apple? Devotee (1): Yes. They are our apples from the garden. Woman devotee: Sweet peas. Devotee (1): There's many varieties of flowers for the garlands and the vases, for almost the next two months. Prabhupāda: Grow more, more, all these fruits, flowers. Bhagavān: This is from ours? Woman devotee: Yes. Devotee (1): Rose. We are growing 2,500 . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Go and live happily. This is a . . . Devotee (1): Pear. Devotee (2): It's not yet ripe. Prabhupāda: You have got puffed rice? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So bring some this pod. Devotee (1): Tomorrow. Prabhupāda: I shall, with puffed rice, I shall take this. Hari-śauri: How do you want them cooking? Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll tell you. Let them bring. Hari-śauri: Bring some now? (laughter) Bhagavān: Glories to Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Give Mandākinī these peas. She'll . . . Hari-śauri: Now? Prabhupāda: Yes. She can . . . tomorrow she can utilize it for kachorī . I've asked her to make kachorī . Let them use this. Hari-śauri: They must have only just come ripe just this last week. Prabhupāda: So many things are growing. Puffed rice, you simply make it hot, dry, take it away, and then take some of the peas, put very little ghee and masālā and some peas, fry it nicely. Then put little water and cover it. When it is soft, you can add with it little these green chilis. Hari-śauri: These big ones? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not very much, but little. Hari-śauri: These are not very hot, the big ones. The small ones are the hot ones, but we don't have any of those left. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: And then mix them, or keep them separate? Prabhupāda: No, keep separately. They should be very soft. And the puffed rice, hot. Then mix with little ghee and masālā . Then, I'll take little. Hari-śauri: Jaya . (end) Conversation A -- August 3, 1976, New Mayapur Prabhupāda: . . . any expert in your country who can fry food grains in hot sand. Bhagavān: Like they make puffed rice, I think, like that. I don't think so. They do it by machine. Prabhupāda: Puffed rice? How? What is that machine? Bhagavān: When they make a thatcher, they use some kind of machine. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Must do. Prabhupāda: But we can do it very easily. Sand should be very hot. Then make hot sand; *it is not very difficult. Any fire. And then take the grains in some . . . another pot, and put the hot sand under it and then agitate. And it will putt*-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt , they'll be finished. Bhagavān: Put the hot sand where? Prabhupāda: Sand is being heated in fire, so you put the grains in another pot and put the hot sand there. Hari-śauri: Underneath the pot? Prabhupāda: Why underneath? I said another pot. You are so dull brain. Here is hot sand. I bring in another pot the grains, and the hot sand I pour on it. Hari-śauri: Pour on it, on top of the grains. Oh. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And then agitate and then put the whole thing on a mesh and make it like this, again put the hot sand there. Is it clear? Then you get the puffed*-up grains. That is very good food. Hari-śauri: Devotees make popcorn. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: They make popcorn. Bhagavān: That's another thing. Prabhupāda: Popcorn, they fry it in ghee , hot ghee . Hari-śauri: Not much though, just a little. Prabhupāda: No, I've seen it. They do it. But that is not very digestive. If you make this sand, hot sand . . . Bhagavān: It's light. *Prabhupāda: Very light. So in the morning you can give them this puffed grains, then fruits and milk—very good breakfast. I mean to say all self*-dependent. Yes. We should save time, as much for this purpose, for chanting, discussing grantha . Not for any personal so-called comforts. We can sit down anywhere on the grass here, and whatever available we make our food. This is the idea. Life will be sublime. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām ( BG 18.65). That is real business. Bhagavān: They are spending so much money for entertainment in material life, but no one is becoming enlivened. But this kind of discussion is so fresh. For a show they pay five dollars, to go to one movie for one hour, two hours. *Prabhupāda: That is another artificial agitation of the mind. It has . . . there is no practical benefit. Just see how many varieties of flowers, colorful. Can they make such colorful? "Yes, we're trying to overcome nature. Wait millions of years." And what about not? "Now you sleep." (laughter) These rascals are misleading other rascals. And they are, "Oh, a scientist!" Very misleading civilization. We shall appreciate in every flower the craftsmanship of Kṛṣṇa, how He has done nicely. Unnecessarily puffed up by so*-called advancement of knowledge, misleading themselves and misleading others. Who is that old man comes? Bhagavān: Which one? Prabhupāda: Some old man? Bhagavān: Oh, he's a Life Member from Belgium. Prabhupāda: Oh. He has come from Belgium? In the last German war, the first attempt of attack was on Belgium. And within few hours, Belgium finished, conquered over. (pause) Bhagavān: It's a very nice part of the day. It's warm . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: It's a nice part of the day. It's very comfortable. Prabhupāda: I think this part is better situated than New Vrindavan, eh? What do you think? Hari-śauri: This is a lot nicer. Prabhupāda: New Vrindavan is on the rocks and hills, and this is plain. Therefore situation is better here. That New Orleans is also plain land. You have been there? And Pennsylvania is also. Hari-śauri: Pennsylvania is very good. Prabhupāda: But it doesn't matter. Our purpose will be served anywhere. So try to concentrate in this village organization life. Full of anxieties, city life. The houses already there, if you repair them nicely then it is a very nice place. They're gradually being repaired. Bhagavān: Yes. No one is getting any salary here. They are just working and taking what they . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Why salary? Kṛṣṇa's servant. We are eternal servant. That is the beauty of our institution. We have no hired men. Unless one is sincere, why he'll work? What is the time now? *Bhagavān: Eight*-thirty. *Prabhupāda: (referring to clock) I think it is stopped. Just see how beautifully it is colored. This sense, aesthetic sense. Kṛṣṇa knows how it will become beautiful. Svā*-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (CC Madhya 13.65, purport). Construction—eh?—of the flower. And there is no intelligence. Hari-śauri: Chance. Prabhupāda: So beat them with shoes, and when they protest, "Oh, it is chance, don't mind. It is by chance I am beating." (laughter) Bhagavān: It seems they are struggling so hard for existence they do not have time to contemplate these simple things, working so hard. Prabhupāda: Yes. So show the example that how by simple living and thinking of Kṛṣṇa, one can become perfect and happy. Hari-śauri: People's minds are so much agitated by false desire that they can't appreciate anything. Real beauty they overlook, searching for something else. (pause) *Prabhupāda: My mother used to make puffed rice at home. So there is special rice available for making puffed rice. Either you can prepare at home or you can purchase in the market, special rice. So she was preparing nice puffed rice, very, very nice. In a sand pot. My mother was always engaged in making some food preparation—some pickle, some chutney, and this puffed rice, or something else, something else, something else. Besides cooking for the family, she was being assisted by my sisters. Always palatable foodstuff. So many guests were there, and if son*-in-law would come, they would specially prepare food for him. To receive guests, give them nice food to eat, prepare nice food for the family, this is the Indian pleasure. They are not very much—nowadays a little different—for upkeep of the home, very . . . that, in their own way, they keep it very nicely. Every utensils, very cleansed, they are kept ready for use, some cloth. If you go in a poor man's home, but you'll find everything very neat and clean. Ask these gṛhasthas to keep their home very neat and clean. Are they keeping? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: What are the general program for eating? Bhagavān: For eating? Every morning everyone has a nice glass of yogurt, chickpeas and apple, orange and banana. Prabhupāda: Chickpeas fried? No. Bhagavān: Boiled chickpeas. Prabhupāda: Oh, boiled. Bhagavān: And apple, orange and banana. And in the afternoon they have rice, dāl, cāpāṭi and salad, and in the evening they have a glass of milk and a little bread. Prabhupāda: That's nice. (sound of engine running) What is that machine? Bhagavān: I think it's a truck. Hari-śauri: One of the vans. Prabhupāda: Vans. (child crying outside) "Prabhupāda"? (laughs) *Bhagavān: We brought the Jagannātha Deity here from Paris for Ratha*-yātrā, and He stayed here for eight days and then went back. And when He went back all the gurukula children, they were all crying and running after the truck. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . (laughs) So . . . this is natural affection. Bhagavān: The little boys also, they were crying, little girls. *Prabhupāda: So Ratha*-yātrā was functioned here? Bhagavān: Oh, yes, very big—two hundred devotees here. It was very ecstatic. Nice prasādam and nice procession. When He came, all the cows came up and they were looking. (laughs) Prabhupāda: The villagers joined? Bhagavān: Yes. They were there. Prabhupāda: They are finding something new. *Hari-śauri: The Times of India gave a very good report of New York Ratha*-yātrā. Prabhupāda: You have got it? Hari-śauri: It's in the room. I thought you'd seen it. (leaves to get clipping) Bhagavān: They cannot publish anything bad about us. They try to find, sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: (returns with clipping) Seems they're always carrying little snippets of information about what we're doing. Before there was a report about the restaurants, and here there's two reports about . . . one about the Jagannātha festival in New York and one about the proposed Vedic university in Kurukṣetra. These were on consecutive days. The one about New York, it says: "Washington, July the 19th." That's where it's reported from. It says: "New York saw on Sunday an unusual spectacle of three brightly colored chariots being pulled along the city's prestigious Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, a distance of about five kilometers, by members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa group. The rathas , built in Orissa style with giant wooden wheels, attracted large crowds of spectators all along the route. It was a novel experience for the New Yorkers. Many resident Indians who are not members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement enthusiastically gave a hand in the pulling. The Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees were celebrating the feast of Jagannātha in the traditional Indian way. The police and the city administration readily cooperated. In a city that is coming to be known for its tolerance of diverse cultures, chariot processions promise to be an annual event. While a few citizens booed and some altercations were reported, the spectacle was well received by the New Yorkers. 'I think it is great,' the New York Times quoted a man as saying. The person, who identified himself as a visitor to New York and was not a Hare Kṛṣṇa fan, referring to the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, added, 'They are all happy and dancing, and that's what life's all about.' Later a vegetarian feast was served to the admirers." Prabhupāda: Very good. Hari-śauri: It's very good. There's just a real short one about the university in Kurukṣetra. It says: "Vedic Varsity for Kurukṣetra Soon." "The first Vedic university will come up soon at Kurukṣetra and will be affiliated to V. N. Chakravarty University. The proposed university is being set up by the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, and will cost rupees two crore . Most of the funds will be provided by Mr. Alfred Ford, the nephew of the auto magnate Henry Ford. Mr. Ford, on becoming a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder of ISKCON, changed his name to Ambarīṣa dāsa. The Vedic university will offer courses leading to bhakti-śāstrī and sarvabhauma. " (break) Prabhupāda: . . . new devotees joining? Bhagavān: Yes. The last month we have about five new devotees. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhagavān: Including children, there are about hundred and ninety altogether. Prabhupāda: Hundred and ninety, two hundred. Bhagavān: Almost two hundred. One family has joined yesterday. Prabhupāda: Family? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: Husband, wife and children? Bhagavān: Two children. He's a builder and plumber. Prabhupāda: Oh, you'll get help for construction work. He can teach others also. Live peacefully, happily, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Bhagavān: The garden crew, when they go out in the afternoon, they have kīrtana out to the field with mṛdaṅga and karatālas where they work. Prabhupāda: You have to arrange for little more water. So you can . . . the pump is not in order. You can arrange for that. Bhagavān: Yes. That's not so difficult. Your water supply has been all right? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhagavān: This, in July . . . this is normal weather now, in August and July. But generally in July it has some rain. Prabhupāda: This year . . . Bhagavān: Yes. And it was the hottest weather in a hundred years. Prabhupāda: Now. Bhagavān: It was, in July. Extremely hot. And actually our well was one of the only ones functioning in the whole area, and we were watering the crops and everything. Our corn is very nice, very high, and our tomatoes are very good. The barley harvest was five tons. Prabhupāda: Five times more? Bhagavān: Five tons of barley we got, from our harvest. It was very nice. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhagavān: Did you get some barley flour? Prabhupāda: I don't have any. Hari-śauri: (laughs) We can't make. It's not finely ground enough. We can't make it into cāpāṭis . It's just too coarse. Prabhupāda: You could do one thing. You just smash that and boil with milk. Hari-śauri: You mean a mortar and pestle? Prabhupāda: Smash and boil with milk. Don't put sugar. Then I shall put sugar according to my taste. Hari-śauri: You want that this evening? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: No. Tomorrow morning. Bhagavān: We are the only farm in the whole area that is growing chickpeas. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Bhagavān: The man said he did not think they can grow, but we have a whole field of chickpeas. They'll be coming up ripe for harvest in about three weeks. Prabhupāda: Chickpeas very nutritious. If you simply boil soft, oh, it is very nutritious. A little, so much, is as good as full meal. Next time, if possible, I shall come in June—June, July, August. Bhagavān: Yes, these are nice months, best months. Prabhupāda: It is not difficult. To come to Paris it takes eight or nine hours from Bombay. Hari-śauri: But you might already be in America at that time. (laughs) You're always in America at that time. Prabhupāda: No, this place is very nice. The outside, so pleasing, the outdoors. Bhagavān: I think you are feeling a little better? Prabhupāda: Yes, little. This facility is nowhere in America, outdoors. Hari-śauri: Well, we have one or two places that are just developing, like Miami. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: That's fifteen . . . fifteen acres? Something like that. No, more. Prabhupāda: Miami climate is like this. Hari-śauri: Oh, very nice. They have a mango orchard. Prabhupāda: Oh. Also coconut. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, very good ḍābs there. Detroit was also very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes, Detroit. (break) . . . Mālatī? Bhagavān: Mālatī? She was there. Hari-śauri: All those boys are coming tomorrow or the day after from Germany. Harikeśa was in touch with them. Bhagavān: We have a nice program on saṅkīrtana where at least twice a week they go to a house and give a class at someone's home. Prabhupāda: Where? Bhagavān: Wherever they are. They meet some interested person, and they go and they have a class in their home. Prabhupāda: And he invites friends. Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Bhagavān: And one man, after the devotee was there, the next week he sent two thousand dollars in the mail. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Bhagavān: And then he came to the Paris temple and he gave another thousand dollars. And then two weeks later he sent again two thousand dollars, and then he moved in with his whole family. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . (laughs) Bhagavān: They are here now. He had his own business and everything, very successful. His children are in the gurukula and he is doing saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: His wife is also? Bhagavān: She is the secretary now. Very nice. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom they came? Bhagavān: South of France. Prabhupāda: South of France. Hari-śauri: If we had a big farm in the south it would be very nice. In the south of France the weather is always very good. Yes? Prabhupāda: South of France is near Mediterranean. Marseilles is south? Bhagavān: Marseilles is right on the Mediterranean. We have very big saṅkīrtana there. Prabhupāda: Marseilles? Oh. Bhagavān: Many books distributed. Prabhupāda: How far it is from . . .? Bhagavān: From here? About six hours. Prabhupāda: On the whole, they are appreciating. Bhagavān: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: This man has come means after appreciating. Everything surrendered—money, family, everything. Bhagavān: Of all the different groups in this country, we have the best reputation. They hardly ever write any bad thing about us. Prabhupāda: French people are, I think, cultured than other states. *Bhagavān: They like to read. When they distribute the hard*-cover books door to door, many people always look at the binding, how the book is made, and they like the pictures. Prabhupāda: We have got our own mung dāl ? Bhagavān: Mung dāl ? This is the first year we're growing. We have a large patch. Prabhupāda: Not yet harvested. Bhagavān: Not yet harvested. But the plants are all very healthy, strong. Prabhupāda: So in the morning you can give. We have got other mung dāl ? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Soak it, soak it, and raw mung dāl also. Ginger and this cucumber. *Bhagavān: When we installed the Gaura*-Nitāi Deity last January, many villagers came, and they all came, they were touching the floor. They have never seen such a nice floor, how smooth it was. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Such marble floor they never saw. (break) . . . who has paid you more than five thousand dollars and he has joined, that does not mean that he's a foolish man. He's a businessman. So what about his business? Leased to somebody else? He leased out to somebody else? Bhagavān: He's finished. Prabhupāda: Oh, stopped that business? Bhagavān: Yes. He's full time here. He had plumbing business, so he does all the plumbing here. And he meets all the officials, the police, and they like him. He is older man. He has a very nice way of presenting himself. Hari-śauri: He's been here over a year now. Bhagavān: Several months ago we had a parents' meeting. Because on account of this man Moon, there was much agitation about groups taking young children away. So we had a very nice meeting with prasādam and slides, and one of the parents was saying that, "We want to be angry at you, but the problem is that you are all so nice that we cannot be angry." Prabhupāda: One gentleman has joined, he has paid five thousand dollars. His whole family has joined. Harikeśa: Just now? That's nice. Bhagavān: His wife's the same, too. Harikeśa: Oh? (break) *Bhagavān: I wanted to get Kṛṣṇa Book published while you are here. So I really pushed our printer to work very hard. I told him, "But the thing is, I have no money to pay you right now," because we had just printed Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . He said: "You try to give me five percent down and I'll give you eight months' credit." Prabhupāda: Ācchā . (laughs) Bhagavān: So I didn't have the money because we were fixing up. So one girl joined, and she gave eight thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: And what is the whole bill? *Bhagavān: That was . . . the whole bill was about forty*-five thousand dollars. So that was sufficient for the down payment. Prabhupāda: It is about more than ten percent. He wants five percent. Bhagavān: But I gave him. Prabhupāda: Hah. (end) Conversation A -- August 4, 1976, New Mayapur Prabhupāda: So what happened to the tickets? Harikeśa: The tickets are being locked up in the safe right now. They're going to . . . they're going to bring the tickets tomorrow to this city called Tours, which is very nearby. They have an Air France office, and we can have it converted there. So everything's all right for Saturday. Prabhupāda: So we shall go by the same plane? Harikeśa: Yes, everybody goes in the same plane. Prabhupāda: That's all right. (devotees offer obeisances and leave) Jayatīrtha: Jaya . (break) Hari-śauri: This is the first pamphlet that you ever printed? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: I mean in the West? Prabhupāda: No, before coming here. Hari-śauri: Oh, and then you brought it with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: Says: " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , India's message of peace and good will. Sixty volumes of elaborate English version by Tridandi Goswami A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. Carried by the Scindia Steam Navigation Company Ltd., Bombay, all over the world for scientific knowledge of God." Then it says: "The sufferings of the entire human society can at once be brought under control simply by individual practice of bhakti-yoga , a simple and easy process of chanting the holy name of God. Every country, every nation and every community throughout the world has some conception of the holy name of God, and as such either the Hindus or the Muhammadans or the Christians, everyone can easily chant the holy name of God in a meditative mood, and that will bring about the required peace and good will in the present problematic human society. Any inquiry in this connection will be gladly answered by Śrī Swamiji. The Hindus generally chant the holy name of God in sixteen chain of transcendental sound composed of thirty-two alphabets as Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. The Vedic literatures like the Upaniṣads and the Purāṇas do recommend chanting of the above-mentioned sixteen holy names at a stretch, and Lord Śrī Caitanya, whose cult of chanting the holy name of God gave special importance on these transcendental sounds. In this age of Kali, or the age of hate, hypocrisy, corruption and quarrel, the only remedial measure is that every man should chant the holy name of the Lord, both individually and collectively." *"The glories of the holy name have been described by Śrī Caitanya in His eight verses of Sikṣāṣṭaka , which run as follows: 1) Glory to the Śrī Kṛṣṇa saṅkīrtana , which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years together, and thus the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death, is extinguished. Such saṅkīrtana movement is the prime benediction for the humanity at large because it spreads rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of transcendental knowledge, it increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it helps to have a taste of the full nectarine for which always anxious we are. 2) O my Lord, Your holy name can render all benediction upon the living being, and therefore You have hundreds and millions of names, like Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, etc. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental potencies, and there is no hard*-and-fast rules for chanting these holy names. O my Lord, You have so kindly made easy approach to You by Your holy names, but unfortunate as I am, I have no attraction for them. 3) One can chant the holy names of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking himself as lower than the straw in the streets, tolerant more than the tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and being ready to offer all kinds of respects to others. 4) O almighty Lord, I have no desire for accumulating wealth, nor I have any desire to enjoy beautiful women, neither I want any number of followers of mine. What I want only is that I may have Your causeless devotional service in my life, birth after birth. 5) O the son of Mahārāja Nanda, I am Your eternal servitor, and although I am so, somehow or another I have fallen in the ocean of birth and death. Please therefore pick me up from the ocean of death and fix me up as one of the atoms of Your lotus feet. 6) O my Lord, when shall my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing incessantly by chanting Your holy name, and when all the holes of hairs on my body will have eruptions by the recitation of Your name? 7) O Govinda, feeling Your separation I am considering a moment as twelve years or more than that, and tears flowing down my cheeks like the torrents of rain. I am feeling all vacant in the world without Your presence. 8) I do not know anyone except Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He shall remain as such even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or He may make me broken-hearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything, but He is always my worshipful Lord, unconditionally." *"Chanting of the holy name of God is recommended for everyone, both for the mass of people and the class of people. Those who are scholars, philosophers, scientists, religionists and educated may read the English version of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami with particular attention to the purports appended with each and every verse. They have appreciated the publication as follows: 'At a time when not only the people of India but those of the West need the chastening quality of love and truth in a corrupting atmosphere of hate and hypocrisy, a work like this will have uplifting and corrective influence. What is God? He is truth, He is Love. Even an atheist must accept the supremacy of these qualities, and how much they are needed by the people of the world who have been taught to deny God, and these qualities do not require much emphasis. The author has attempted a tremendous task, the perusal will give us in the sample measure a knowledge of the original. The essence of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the exposition of the Absolute Truth. We would recommend this book.' " Then another one. " 'The editor's vast and deep study of . . ." Prabhupāda: Whose? *Hari-śauri: It doesn't give who is speaking, just the quotes. " 'The editor's vast and deep study of the subject and critical insight are reflected in these notes. We have no doubt that with the publication of these volumes of the rightful interpretations of the Bhāgavatam , which has been the gift of Śrī Caitanya and His Gosvāmī followers, has now been available to the English*-knowing world for the first time. The elaborate method is very helpful to the ardent student of Bhāgavatam , who lack in Sanskrit language. It is admitted in all hands that Bhāgavatam is the most difficult text amongst the Purāṇas . The author richly deserves the gratitude of the devotees for his pious learned labor of love.' " And another one: " 'These volumes speak very highly of Swāmījī's scholarship, and especially of his love of cultural pursuits when we look into the enormous labor of sacrifice in producing them single-handed, and that too at a ripe old age of sixty-eight. We honestly pray to the Almighty that He may spare Swāmījī for all the years he may require to finish the magnum opus of sixty volumes and earn the love and gratitude of his fellow men in pursuit of divine love and grace, nay of the entire humanity. You have done a first-class work, and you deserve the hearty commendation of every Indian, every Hindu. Your deep and penetrating study of the subject and your philosophic insight are reflected in this book.' " etcetera, etcetera. That's the whole pamphlet. Prabhupāda: Complete? Hari-śauri: Yes. You used to give this pamphlet when you first came? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: There's a very nice picture. Prabhupāda: Oh. Before coming here. *Hari-śauri: So you would be sixty*-nine then? *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-nine or seventy. (pause) Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, this picture is nice. Hari-śauri: Taken in Germany, I think. Prabhupāda: Who is behind? Hari-śauri: There's, er, this is Haṁsadūta, Vedavyāsa, and then some of the devotees, saṅkīrtana devotees. You were making a joke. (laughs) (break) (during massage) But you were preaching before that, in India, though. Prabhupāda: Not very much. Oh, yes, that Back to Godhead. Hari-śauri: In Vṛndāvana you were just translating? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: But the library party said that everywhere in Delhi they went, they found that you had already placed your three volumes of Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Yes. In American also. The Congress Library purchased nineteen sets. Hari-śauri: Which library? Prabhupāda: Congress Library. Hari-śauri: Oh, Congress. The one in Washington? The Library of Congress? Prabhupāda: Or there is a branch in India. Hari-śauri: Oh. That is where they have your original Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Hari-śauri: The first copy, they have it in Washington there. Prabhupāda: American government is good organization. (pause) Prabhupāda: From 1954 to '66 I struggled very hard. Alone. Hari-śauri: Twelve years. Prabhupāda: Yes. Twelve years means one yuga . Hari-śauri: One . . . Prabhupāda: Roughly one yuga . And big yuga , another. Hari-śauri: One yuga ? Prabhupāda: Yes. In the ordinary sense. Hari-śauri: Oh, the term is used differently? It can be used in different ways? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: We always think of one yuga as being like Kali*-yuga, or . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a big yuga , this is small yuga . Hari-śauri: It's very fortunate for us that you were so determined. (long pause) Prabhupāda: They have got so many cars. Hari-śauri: Here? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Actually, I think most of our centers have got many, many vans and cars. Prabhupāda: That means they are rich. Hari-śauri: Just like in India they used to measure wealth by how many cows, (laughs) in the West they measure wealth by how many cars. Prabhupāda: And we have both. Cows and cars, both. Hari-śauri: Yes. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So the devotees like this evening class? Hari-śauri: They like . . .? Prabhupāda: Evening class. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, it's a very enlivening program. In the evening it's very nice out of doors. It's warm from the day. No one falls asleep, except for the children, and that's very good because then they're quiet. Prabhupāda: Small children, they also clap . . . Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . and dance on the lap of the mother. They are smiling. Fortunate children, from the birth, associating with devotees. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Nowadays cheating is a good qualification, huh? Hari-śauri: Yes. It's their only qualification. Prabhupāda: If I cheat somebody and get some money, you are very expert. *Hari-śauri: Top*-class businessman. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: First*-class scientist. And the best politician. Just like in America, once they'd found Nixon was cheating, now they're investigating one man after another, and every one, they're finding all the same. Prabhupāda: America, cheating is a policy. How a real estate man, lawyer, they're simply planning how to cheat. Hari-śauri: Hmm. The lawyers are the worst, because they know the law. So they know how to cheat in such a way that they can stay within the law. They said Ambarīṣa's lawyer cheated us out of so many things when we got that Detroit property. (end) Conversation A -- August 5, 1976, New Mayapur (Conversation with Professor Francois Chenique) Prabhupāda: How are you? Hari-śauri: No, this is not him. This is a devotee. Yogeśvara: Professor's upstairs putting on a dhotī . He brought his daughter. Prabhupāda: Oh? *Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique teaches a course in Bhagavad*-gītā at the University, and he is also doing translations of Śaṅkarācārya and teaches for the Federation of yoga . He considers himself a Christian Advaitist. (break) . . . some questions regarding the publications in French. For example, on the front of Back to Godhead magazine, in the English edition and other language editions, they have kept the phrase "Godhead is light, darkness is nescience. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience." Now in French it is difficult to translate that. There is no word Godhead . And if you say "God is light," in French it sounds very impersonalist. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yogeśvara: In French, Dieu est lumiere , "God is light." Many groups say like that. We use the word Godhead, and that distinguishes us from the other groups. Now, is the phrase very important, and do you want us to keep it on the front of the magazine? It should be there. Prabhupāda: There is little difference between "God" and "Godhead." Yogeśvara: So then we will have to try to find . . . Prabhupāda: Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BS 5.1). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ. Īśvara, more or less everyone, but īśvaraḥ paramaḥ , that is Godhead. The Māyāvādīs, they do not distinguish between one īśvara to another īśvara . That may be on the ordinary level, but there is parama īśvara. Yogeśvara: One possibility would be to say, "God the Supreme Person is light." That we can translate. Prabhupāda: God means Supreme Person. But these advaitavādī , Māyāvādīs, they have made God everyone. God means Supreme Person, that is the dictionary word. "Supreme Being." That is the dictionary meaning. God does not mean ordinary, but they have made ordinary, anyone God: "I am God, you are God, he is God." Then what is meaning of God? Yogeśvara: Therefore we say Godhead . Prabhupāda: Yes. Head man. There are many men; He is head man. Godhead word is also there in the dictionary. You find out. Yogeśvara: "Godhead—being God or a God, divine nature, Deity, the Godhead, God." The word is there, but the definition they've given is not very . . . Prabhupāda: They do not know. (laughs) They do not know what is God, what is Godhead. They think all these are fictitious. Throughout the whole world they do not know what is God. Simply they know the word, that's all. What it means they do not know. That we are giving. Here is God, Godhead. Nobody knows, nobody cares to know. That is nescience. They think it is an idea, that's all. Actually there is God, there is kingdom of God, one can go and speak with Him, dance with Him. They cannot believe there is a . . . it is beyond their poor fund of knowledge. Therefore they do not accept Kṛṣṇa as God. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ ( BG 9.11). God is the Supreme Person, Supreme Being. Actually there is place where God lives. They do not know. This is the first time, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are giving these ideas; otherwise, who knows it? Nobody knows it. The Christian or Muhammadan is . . . nobody knows. And religion means to accept God as the Supreme Person. They do not know God. Then what is meaning of religion? Religion means to accept a Supreme Person as the supreme controller. That is religion. How the Supreme Person is working in manufacturing this flower, let the scientists explain. But there is no brain? Just nicely painted, symmetrically, each flower of the same class, another class, another class, another class. (guests enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yogeśvara: This is Professor Francois Chenique and his daughter. They drove from Paris this morning to see you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. You can come forward. I have read your review of our book. It is very nice. (Bhūgarbha translates from this point onward) Prabhupāda: Very nice. Your study about this tradition, Indian tradition, I think he has mentioned. Indian tradition, the whole Vedic literature . . . he understands English? Yogeśvara: Yes, but I should translate. He's asked me to translate. Prabhupāda: . . . is to approach God. This is the Indian tradition. But, as you have mentioned Aurobindo's name, Aurobindo's idea was to make a better situation of this world. He wanted, by yoga practice, a better situation of the world. But our tradition says that is not possible. Bhūgarbha translating: He asks what is meant by the situation in this world. *Prabhupāda: The situation is you have to suffer. Situation is you have to suffer. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). This is a place for suffering, and that also you cannot stay here. Even if you make compromise, "All right, I shall suffer and stay," Kṛṣṇa says no. You suffer, and after you make adjustment, you will be kicked out. Bhūgarbha: He said so do we have to completely leave the world? We cannot stay within the world and sanctify ourselves? Prabhupāda: You have to leave. You cannot stay. You do not want to leave, that's a fact, but you'll be kicked out. When Napoleon fought for France, he did not like to leave, but he was kicked out. I have seen in one park, there is a Napoleon Bonaparte is there—France and Napoleon identified. But France is there, Napoleon is kicked out. (laughter) Bhūgarbha: He's asking that, in view of that, is it impossible to live a household life and at the same time a spiritual life? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhūgarbha: You can do. Professor Chenique: I hope so, yes. Prabhupāda: Arjuna, Arjuna is a householder, he's a military man, but the greatest devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Bhūgarbha: He wants you to mention something about the translations. He wants to express his opinion about the translations that the French translators are doing of your books. Prabhupāda: He is doing? Bhūgarbha He wants to give his opinion. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhūgarbha: He's asking permission to give his opinion. Prabhupāda: It would be very nice. *Bhūgarbha: He says it is very interesting, very important that Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam be translated in the same way as the Gītā . The Bhagavad-gītā has been translated many times into French, but the Bhāgavatam was only translated once, and that also in the last century. Prabhupāda: This is our translation? Bhūgarbha: No, it's another one. In the 1800 it was translated. Prabhupāda: And they simply translation, or elaborately like we are doing? Bhūgarbha: Just translation. *Yogeśvara: Sanskrit on the left*-hand page, French on the right-hand page, but no commentaries. Prabhupāda: That is difficult to understand. Yogeśvara: Yes, no one has read. It was the full twelve cantos, but a very limited edition, and only available in library archives. No one has . . . very few people have seen it. Bhūgarbha: He says he feels that the French public is very demanding in questions of editing and writing, and he feels that the French that's used in our translations should not have a smell of English. Sometimes French translations seem like English written in French. He said they should be in perfect French, and that in the French language there's a need to make things more compact and condensed. He's wondering if we can condense them more than in English. Prabhupāda: So one of us who knows French nicely, he can do that. But there is no difference. They are taking the ideas from English and translating. Yogeśvara: He says, Professor Chenique wishes to know, would it not be more valuable if our men spoke Sanskrit and could translate directly from the Sanskrit into French? *Prabhupāda: There is no much difference. Sanskrit is there and the Sanskrit translation is there. Where is the difference? We are giving the Sanskrit and then word*-to-word translation. Bhūgarbha: He says that when one translates from Sanskrit into English and from English into French, that it's not exactly the same thing in French that it was in Sanskrit. He feels that it would be more . . . Prabhupāda: No, if from Sanskrit to French can be translated, I have no objection. But we have no such arrangement. Yogeśvara: We have no Sanskrit scholars in French yet, no. Prabhupāda: Not only scholar. Not only scholar, he must be a realized soul. Simply scholarship will not help. Simply scholarship will not help. There are many Sanskrit scholars in India. There are many Sanskrit scholars, original Sanskrit scholars in India—they cannot understand Bhāgavata . Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique's point is that we are seeking to introduce these books on a university level, and there's a certain standard that must be met. Prabhupāda: What is that standard? Bhūgarbha: He's just saying that the style of French, he feels that it's too many words. Prabhupāda: French . . . he must be French, expert in language, at the same time, a devotee. Then he can express. Otherwise not. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's secretary, Svarūpa Dāmodara, he asked that Brahmin, bhāgavata paḍā giyā bhāgavata sthāne : "Go and study Bhāgavata from bhāgavata ." I have discussed this in the beginning of translation of Bhāgavata . So Bhāgavata , that is the limit of education. Vidyā bhāgavata vadhiḥ . One has to study and take education up to *Bhāgavatam* . That is, if one understands *Bhāgavatam* , he's finished his education. Bhūgarbha: He agrees. He's just saying that he wishes—he's not criticizing in any way—but he wants that your books have a better audience, then more people will accept them. And he feels that if the French, the way that the French has been written, is changed, we'll have a better audience, it will reach higher. *Prabhupāda: But that is from scholarship point of view. But our point is this Bhāgavata must be presented by bhāgavata . And there is no much scholarship required. Just like Bhāgavata begins with the words janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). This Sanskrit word means the Absolute Truth is that from where everything emanates. Now, that Absolute Truth further explained: anvayād itarataś ca abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). That Absolute Truth is aware of everything, directly and indirectly, of all this creation. In this way, if you step*-by-step study, it is not very difficult so far the word meanings are concerned, but it is a question of realization. Unless one is realized, he cannot explain properly. That is the secret. Therefore we have given the life of Caitanya Mahāprabhu in our Bhāgavatam because He's living Bhāgavatam . Janadrādhi: His point Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that your purports—you are repeating teachings, but this is wanted. His point is that in the French language, the French language cannot accept such repetitions. So he's asking if you could compact more of your purports. But we want to translate your purports with the repetitions, because we know they are wanted. *Yogeśvara: The English comment*-purport that you give very often will repeat one point for a clear understanding to the reader. Stylistically, in French, this is difficult. It is not the accepted standard. French is generally more compact, something is said only one time. So Professor Chenique is hoping that he will see our future translations a better French style in the translation. And Janadrādhi, who is the translator, one of our translators, explains that our point is we wish to keep your intention by repeating the point so that the reader will understand, because it is being said several times. *Prabhupāda: That is the system in Vedic ways. Just like you see Bhagavad*-gītā , in different way Kṛṣṇa has explained the immortality of the soul. You take Bhagavad-gītā , that portion. Find out that. What is that verse? Bhūgarbha: Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit ? Hari-śauri: Before that. Describes negatively in different ways of understanding the soul. Prabhupāda: Yes, positively, negatively. Bhūgarbha: (French translation) Prabhupāda: The same thing is being explained in a different way. Bhūgarbha: The question seems to be a very technical one of just French language. He's not objecting to the . . . Prabhupāda: I've no experience of the French language. I am talking of the Sanskrit language. (laughter) Bhūgarbha: If we give him one purport and see how he would change it. Prabhupāda: There are so many purports you can. (professor reads one purport in French) Bhūgarbha: He said that that one was all right. (laughter) *Professor Chenique: I was, up to recent time, I was commenting the Bhagavad*-gītā in the camping. For eleven years every summer I am commenting the Gītā in the camping. And I commend very warmly this edition of the Bhagavad-gītā . I think it's the best that you may find in France. But when I'm reading the commentary for my students, I find some sentences which are not good French, I think because it is not a very good style, and I hope it won't be that matter with . . . (French) Bhūgarbha: Perhaps Professor Chenique could go over our translations and make any suggestions. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. *Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique is offering to re*-read our publications, to read them, and when he sees something he thinks can be corrected, he will make some indication. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. It is welcome. *Yogeśvara: (devotee enters) This is Hayeśvara, Hayeśvara dāsa, in charge of the Dutch publications, Dutch translator. He has done the Bhagavad*-gītā , this edition, in Dutch. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Thank you very much. Bhūgarbha: This is the Dutch translation. Professor Chenique made the comment . . . Prabhupāda: The idea is, suppose I am in France. I do not know French language, but there is fire in my room, and I have to call my neighbors. So somehow or other I call and take their help. (laughter) *Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique wishes to know whether we cannot do one very small pocketbook edition (of Bhagavad*-gītā ) that will sell very inexpensively. Something like I think in India they have done. Hari-śauri: Like the abridged version in America they did? Yogeśvara: No, something like this, very small. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. It is nice proposal. Hari-śauri: Like that Chinese one? First six chapters. Like that? Prabhupāda: Where is that Chinese? Bhūgarbha: He feels that if we bring out a very small, compact edition, it will sell very nicely. (devotee leaves to find book) Hari-śauri: First six chapters. Professor Chenique: Wonderful. I am . . . (indistinct) . . . Chinese, but I am not able to read. Prabhupāda: First of all, we printed seven hundred copies. And now we are going to print five thousand. Bhūgarbha: He said we're making the highest record of distribution. Professor Chenique: Oh, yes, for this kind of book. Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission: He has to preach in every village and every town on the surface of the globe about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So our business is . . . just the example I have given, that there is fire; I do not know the language. Still, I have to call and take help. So I am doing like that. There is a story. In Calcutta when the Britishers were establishing themselves, so one clerk was working in the office and some monkey came and scattered the office files and everything. So his boss came, he asked him, "What is this? Why you . . .?" So he cannot explain, so he began to jump like monkey, that on account of the monkey coming within the room. So when the language is unknown, we have to jump and show that the monkey came. Yogeśvara: (asks professor if he has any philosophical questions) Professor Chenique thanks you very much for receiving him, and he says that he is . . . Prabhupāda: Many thanks for his coming. Yogeśvara: . . . he is very happy to see you, and that he does not have any questions. He appreciates very much the Vaiṣṇava point of view . . . Prabhupāda: Take this to the daughter. Yogeśvara: And he thinks that seeing the decline of religion in the West, he says it is very important that we are pushing on this mission as we are doing. Bhūgarbha: He doesn't think that he'll be able to follow the life of the Vaiṣṇavas, because our life is too difficult. Prabhupāda: That attitude will help him. That humbleness that, "I cannot follow," that will help. Bhūgarbha: He says that he has a tendency more of a jñānī , and his training has been according to Śaṅkarite and also Buddhist lines. But still he appreciates very much bhakti , and he is very happy to meet the devotees, at the same time he's very depressed to meet all these intellectuals who know so many things but cannot understand anything. *Prabhupāda: Without becoming jñānī , nobody can become bhakta . Without knowledge, if one has become bhakta , he's sentimentalist. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out this verse: samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). (French translation read by the professor) So without becoming fully in knowledge, nobody can become devotee. Bhūgarbha: He asks, What about the opposite—people who become devotees without knowing anything? He's asking . . . Prabhupāda: No, devotee cannot be without knowing, knowledge. A devotee means . . . a devotee means he knows everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). This is Vedic injunction. One who knows the Absolute, he knows everything. Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? That verse, does that mean that one who is neophyte . . . *Prabhupāda: Neophyte is neophyte. Why do you bring him to become a devotee? A devotee is different. A "One plus one equal to two," he's not mathematician. He's learning. There is hope one day he'll be a big mathematician. There are three stages, kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī, uttama-adhikārī. So when you speak of "devotee," that is this uttama-adhikārī. So he knows everything. Rather, the so-called jñānī , he does not know, because he does not know Kṛṣṇa. The so-called jñānī , he does not know what is Personality of Godhead. He's impersonalist. Therefore he is still unaware of the Absolute Truth. Therefore he's not jñānī . His jñāna , his knowledge, is lacking. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said: If one jñānī is impersonalist, he's not jñānī . He is still unaware of the Absolute Truth. He does not know. Therefore it will take many, many births to come to the understanding of the Personality of Godhead. Therefore he's not jñānī; *he's claiming to be jñānī . Such jñānī will take many hundreds of births to come to the position of real jñānī . Find out this bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). (devotee reads in French) So*-called jñānī , after many, many births, when he understands Kṛṣṇa and surrenders to Him, then he's jñānī. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . That kind of jñānī is very, very rare. The impersonalist means ajñānī . Yes. Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa, the person. *There is another verse in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam : āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Āruhya kṛcchreṇa , by the jñāna process, is undergoing austerities and penances, one comes to the platform of paraṁ padam , monism, or platform of oneness. But because he has no shelter, he patanty adhaḥ , again comes to the material. Just like so many sannyāsīs in India, they are very learned, they have come to the platform of Brahman realization, but after some time they come to the material field for political work, for social work. They give up this world, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . If jagat is mithyā , is false, why does he come for social work? Just like these people going to the moon planet, but because they do not get any shelter, they take some sand and come back again. So what is the use of going there and spending so much money and come back with little sand, and satisfied, "Now we have studied"? Because they have no shelter. So the jñānīs , they have no shelter. Yes. They may go very high in the sky, but because they have no shelter they come back again. Punar muṣaka bhava : again became a mouse. So that is not jñānī; *that is ajñānī. Jñānī is described here, mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). Brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20) is jñānī, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā , "I have nothing to do with material world." Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54), there is no lamentation, there is no hankering. When he has attained that stage, brahma-bhūta stage, reality, then he is entrance in the bhakti . Otherwise a neophyte. Bhūgarbha: He says that any person on the path of knowledge who rejects the Personality of Godhead, his knowledge is finished. Prabhupāda: That is sublime knowledge. When you talk with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, dance with Him, that is sublime perfection. Otherwise, you will have to dance with the dog. Bhūgarbha: He's asking that since he first read the *Gītā* when he was very young, since that time he's been trying to compact paths of jñāna and bhakti and follow the teachings of all the great religions. And he's wondering if he should continue on that same path. *Prabhupāda: No, jñāna means that to understand the Absolute Truth. If you do not understand the Absolute Truth, what is the meaning of this jñāna ? That means knowledge is imperfect. So, but if you want to know the Absolute Truth, ultimately, then bhakti is required. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). If you want to know the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Being, then you have to go through bhakti. Jñāna, so-called jñāna, bhakti includes. Just like bhakti includes everything, but jñāna does not include bhakti . It is imperfect. In jñāna there is little touch of bhakti , but in bhakti there is full jñāna . Because unless you . . . absolute Truth is realized in three stages, brahmeti, paramātmeti, bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). So those who are on the stage of Brahman and Paramātmā, they're not in the Absolute Truth. Part of it. But when one understands Bhagavān, then he understands Paramātmā and Brahman. That is full knowledge. There are three things— sat, cit, ānanda . So Brahman realization is sat . Paramātmā realization is cit. But ānanda is not there. But if he does not get ānanda , then falls down. Bhūgarbha: He says Christianity says the same thing. Not Christianity of today, but original Christianity said the same thing. *Prabhupāda: Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). This is the Vedānta . We are, as spirit soul, being part and parcel of the Supreme, ānanda is our goal, ānanda , blissfulness. But that blissfulness you cannot get simply by understanding sat-cit. You must come to the platform ānanda . That is Kṛṣṇa. So because these so-called jñānīs , they do not get ānanda , they do not have the entrance into the ānanda platform, they come to this material ānanda , this material pleasure. Therefore they take to this hospitality or opening a school or philanthropic work—another type of this material pleasure. Therefore Śaṅkarācārya recommended: *Your simply this grammatical jugglery of words will not help you. Bhaja govindam. Therefore we, govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . We, our principle, is to worship Govinda, the ādi-puruṣa, tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . *So without coming to that stage, perfection is not complete. Partial, the sac*-cid-ānanda , the brahma-anubhūti is partial, sat . "I am not matter. I am not destructible. I am eternal." This is sat . And cit , knowledge, full knowledge about spiritual . . . but ānanda you have to come to the third stage, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate . So we have to come to the stage of understanding Bhagavān; *otherwise knowledge is imperfect. Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Bhakti is defined by Rūpa Gosvāmī, jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛta , above jñāna stage. Jñāna , karma , karma stage, jñāna stage, above them. Untouched by jñāna. Karma is material, and jñāna is marginal, between material and spiritual. So you have to go above that, karma jñāna , then it is bhakti stage. Yogeśvara: Also that verse in *Bhāgavatam* : *Prabhupāda: Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti*-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ. Find out this verse. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. I don't see Bhagavān dāsa. Why? Bhūgarbha: He's organizing the ceremony for tomorrow. Prabhupāda: The difference is, a bhakta , pure bhakta , he has jñāna . But a jñānī may not have bhakti . Yogeśvara: Once Professor Chenique asked me whether we thought it was possible for a Christian like himself to also realize the perfection of Vaiṣṇavism. Prabhupāda: Why not? Christianism is also Vaiṣṇavism. Christianism is Vaiṣṇavism. Anyone who accepts the supremacy of God, he's a Vaiṣṇava. So Christian, Christianity, "God is great," they say. So that is Vaiṣṇavism, "God is great." Professor Chenique: Oui, but now they say God is dead. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhūgarbha: Now the Christians say that God is dead. *Prabhupāda: Now, that is not Christianity. If you can change, there is no religion. That is mental concoction. As soon as you make change, we reject immediately, useless. Religion: the word of God. Religion means the word of God. You cannot change the word of God. If you change the word of God—that is material, that is not religion. You cannot change the word of God by your votes. That is useless. If you say that religion . . . religion means the dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Find out this verse, Sixth Canto. There is no Sixth Canto there? Hari-śauri: We have one volume, but it's the wrong volume. We have Volume Two. Bhūgarbha: I think he's bringing. *Prabhupāda: Oh. The definition of religion is just like law. Law can be given by the government. You cannot make law. If you make at home some law, nobody will touch it. It is not obligatory. But if government says, "Keep to the right," it is obligatory. This is law. So religion, you cannot manufacture religion. Religion means the word of God. And if yearly or quarterly you change the words, that is not religion. That is not religion. That is mental concoction. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. No change. Others, they are interpreting in their own way. That is not Bhagavad-gītā . That is something else. (to devotee) Keep it there. He will take. In the words of God there is no question of changing. You cannot change. As soon as you make a change, immediately it is material—it has nothing to do with spiritual world. The same example: the law of government is one, and if you make change, that is not law. Government says, "Keep to the right," you have to keep to the right. You cannot make "Keep to the left," no. So that is nowadays happening—which edition of Christianity? There are so many. Therefore it is the purport of Christianity is lost. That is lost. You have, what that verse I wanted? Hari-śauri: They couldn't find the book. *Prabhupāda: Oh, they couldn't. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). This is the verse. Religion means the words given by God. But they have no idea what is God, whether He can speak or He's a dull, dumb. That is the difficulty. The Māyāvādīs, they say God has no mouth. So how He will speak? He has no eyes, He has no ear. Then who will hear my prayer? That is Māyāvādī definition. But Vedas say apāni-pāda javana gṛhīta , that both things, that He has no leg, but he can walk faster than anyone. He has no ear, but He can hear everything. Just like we have got this ear, but I cannot hear what is going on next room. But God has no ear, but He can hear here, there, everywhere. This is Vedic definition. This is Vedic definition. Śṛṇoti akarṇa . He has no ears, but He hears everything. That means that it is not the fact that He has no ear, but He has no limited ear like me. And therefore described sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1). You cannot compare with this body, because sat means eternal. So this body is not eternal. So when God has no body means He hasn't got a body like this. He is sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1). His body is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge. But He has body. You cannot say imperson. But His body is of different quality. Just like you have got body, but you cannot swim in the . . . or you cannot remain within the water. Similarly, He has got body, but not the body like this, perishable. Sac-cid-ānanda. This body is perishable. But He has got imperishable. Avyayātmā . We have to understand in that way. Not that because it is stated He has no body that means He is zero. No, He has got body, but not a body not like this. Bhūgarbha: Professor Chenique's suggesting that in the Middle Ages there were many philosophers who also were researching the same questions of the body of God and how His body is different from ours, and they came to exactly the same conclusions as are mentioned in the *Bhāgavatam* . So he's suggesting that some of our devotees should read some of these books so we'll be able to in our preaching show the French people these conceptions that God has a body are not foreign conceptions, and actually even the European philosophers in the Middle Ages were saying the same things. Prabhupāda: No, you can convince by your words. It is not necessary that you have to read so many other words. If you are yourself convinced, then you can convince others by your words. The fact. The same example, when there is fire actually you can express it by any word. *Bhūgarbha: He says that . . . he feels that it's because he has read all of these books during his youth, now he's able to appreciate Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Bhūgarbha: He feels that because he read all of these other books during his youth that now he's come to the point that he can appreciate Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who is after truth, he'll appreciate truth. That's a fact. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1). That is the Bhāgavata beginning. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. If one is after truth, he'll appreciate truth wherever it is. Every point, from any angle of vision, those who are searching after truth, everything is explained—primarily in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and elaborately in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So about the Christian religion, what is the conception of God? *Bhūgarbha: He said: "If I speak in English then I'll say that God is the father, the son and the Holy Ghost—not one person, but three persons. But if I want to say the same thing in Sanskrit, then I'll say sac*-cid-ānanda ." Prabhupāda: Three persons? God is three persons? *Bhūgarbha: Father, the son and the Holy Spirit. But he says that that means the same thing, as far as he's concerned, as sac*-cid-ānanda . Prabhupāda: So why three person? God is one. Expansion, you can say expansion. Just like brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti (SB 1.2.11). The person is one. In the dictionary it is said: "God, the Supreme Being," is it not? Person is one. So person is one, now His expansion, His son, His spirit . . . what is that? Holy Spirit. That is another thing. But the person is one, the Supreme. What is the definition of God? Just see. Bhūgarbha: He said that in Christianity it's more complicated than that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Person is one, but they have no idea the Supreme Person can expand. What is that? Hari-śauri: (reading from dictionary) It says: "Superhuman being, worshiped as having power over nature and human fortunes; Deity." Prabhupāda: God? Hari-śauri: Yes, this is the definition of God. "Superhuman being." Prabhupāda: Human being? Hari-śauri: "Superhuman being. Worshiped as having power over nature and over human fortunes." Bhūgarbha: Demigods. Prabhupāda: No other definition? God Supreme Being is not there? Hari-śauri: "Supreme Being, creator and ruler of the universe." Prabhupāda: Yes, Supreme Being. Supreme Being means one. There cannot be many Supreme. But He can expand. Bhūgarbha: That's the point. (translates for professor) *Prabhupāda: This is defined in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (BS 5.33). Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam. Ananta-rūpam : many millions of expansion. Ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam, but He's the original person. So the Supreme Being is one, but He has got multi-expansion. That is another thing. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca. Bhūgarbha: He says Christianity is actually coherent, but one has to study it very deeply to understand. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhūgarbha: He says just like Vaiṣṇavism is also coherent, but one has to study very deeply. Otherwise, one cannot see it. He said if we examine all the religions and find out the axiomatic truths of every religion, we'll see how they are all coherent. Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that religion means to understand God. If one does not understand God, then his religion is still defective. Religion means to understand God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). Just when you understand God and your relationship with God, then it is perfection of religion. Hari-śauri: Verse 6. Bhūgarbha: He said that he feels very thankful that you've given him such a long darśana . He feels very happy that you've given so much enlightenment in many subjects. He's just passing through with his daughter. He'd like to stay tomorrow to see the installation of the Deities, but he has to go to a Tibetan temple in the south of France. On Saturday he has to be there, so he has to drive, and he said that he's found the Tibetans are also very good devotees. Prabhupāda: Very good. Jaya . (end) Conversation -- August 7, 1976, Tehran Prabhupāda: These are all local fruits? Or imported? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Mostly local. Now we have a lot of local fruits. Prabhupāda: You grow banana also? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, the banana is imported. Parivrājakācārya: From South America, they bring bananas . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Grapes? Grapes you have got. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Grapes, apple. Where is your eldest child? Nandarāṇī: This is Candramukhī. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, I saw you in Los Angeles? Nandarāṇī: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have got two or three girls? Nandarāṇī: Just two. Prabhupāda: Two. Is there arrangement for preparing khicuṛi with green peas? Nandarāṇī: Mung . With mung ? Hari-śauri: No, green peas. Ātreya Ṛṣi: With green peas. Nandarāṇī: With green peas. Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. So make little khicuṛi and curry and okra vegetable. Nandarāṇī: All right. We have chaturi and paratha . Do you want that also? Prabhupāda: Oh, you have already made? Nandarāṇī: But I can make khicuṛi , that's all right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, we can make some khicuṛi . Hari-śauri: Make some khicuṛi , and then whenever you can. Prabhupāda: Oh. I'll take also little paratha . Where is bathroom? Dayānanda: There's another room, for resting. Prabhupāda: For resting. Dayānanda: And you can go out this door, just there and bathroom is on the other side of this resting room. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Let me show you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: This is the key to this cabinet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I put the bag in it. (break) . . . very expensive. Prabhupāda: This is a rented house? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What is the rent? Ātreya Ṛṣi: The rent now it is twelve hundred dollars. But of course everything is now much more expensive. So I was negotiating in New York for better arrangements, because in Iran price is going up and up and up. And I told my company that they should buy one house. Prabhupāda: Here. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. And they have agreed. So there will be, be that house. We will buy something like this for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: This is very nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And also we have also saved some money, we'll buy a temple also in addition to that. Prabhupāda: No, this is very nice. Dayānanda, do you like it? Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is very nice place, private. Everything is so nice. In the winter, what is the temperature? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very cold. Prabhupāda: Very cold. Parivrājakācārya: Yes, it snows. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Like Vṛndāvana. Isn't it like? Parivrājakācārya: It's colder than Vṛndāvana. Hari-śauri: It don't snow in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, I don't think less than fifty. Hari-śauri: It sometimes gets colder, I think. Nowadays anyway. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Here it gets ten, fifteen. Prabhupāda: But there is no snow in Vṛndāvana. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have plenty of snow here. Parivrājakācārya: We're very high. We're six thousand feet above sea level. Pradyumna: We've got everything. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Has it come in? Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: Who has come? Pradyumna: Just Harikeśa and myself. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So everything is clear? Hari-śauri: The luggage and everything is here. I'll go now and see to it. Prabhupāda: Jaya . So I am also very happy. Dayānanda, you are here, and you can have more facilities. You family men, you require some money also. So your present situation is very nice? Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: What they are paying you? Dayānanda: They are paying . . . I bring home about one thousand dollars per month. Prabhupāda: After deducting. Dayānanda: After deducting taxes. Prabhupāda: It is better than USA. You were getting six hundred there? Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are getting more? Why Gargamuni advised you to give up? I chastised him, "Why you have given him such advice? He's a gṛhastha , he must have some money. He has to take care of the children." Anyway, you have got better job now and better service also. Kṛṣṇa has rewarded you for your service. Stick to it. Don't . . . if you like to serve here, you can be permanently settled. No, what is their rules? Dayānanda: It is quite easy, because they need . . . Prabhupāda: Service. Dayānanda: . . . foreigners to come and work here. Prabhupāda: So that is very good. Dayānanda: So they give visas very easily for working. Prabhupāda: Oh. Especially to Americans? Dayānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That's very good opportunity. Bring more Americans and start this movement nicely. Not necessarily that we have to establish a temple. We want to preach our philosophy. That is most important. Bhāgavata*-mārga. There are two ways: bhāgavata-mārga and pāñcarātriki. The bhāgavata-mārga is more important than pāñcarātriki. Pāñcarātriki is Deity worship. So do you meet many intelligent men here? No. Not very many. Dayānanda: Some intelligent. People are working very hard for money, and they're very materialistic. Prabhupāda: That is everywhere in the eastern part of the world. They are after money. Dayānanda: Yes and the foreigners who come here also, they are materialistic also. Prabhupāda: Everywhere materialistic. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye ( BG 7.3). Spiritualistic means siddhi , perfection. Who cares for perfection? Bring money and enjoy. That's all. Who cares for perfection? They do not know what is perfection. They think that you get money, you live comfortably as far as possible, and after death, everything's finished. Is it not? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: This is the philosophy. Who cares to know that there is life after death and better life, better planet, better world? This is not at all good; it is full of miseries. They are driving all day, car, but they do not think it is tiresome. They think it is pleasure. To have a car and drive whole day, they do not feel that it is tiresome. They think, "I have got a car. I'm driving, people are seeing. It is pleasure." Parivrājakācārya: It is madness, how they can enjoy a city like that. *Prabhupāda: But we do not deprecate. We simply say that do whatever you like, but do not forget your real business, self*-realization, ātma-tattvam. Self-realization, that is required. And if we live like cats and dogs and again become cats and dogs and pigs, that is not success. But there is chance if one does not know ātma-tattva. Nature's law will work. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). (background discussion about moving furniture) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So, your son is sleeping? Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is not my son. Prabhupāda: Oh. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is salt, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is watermelon. This is a different kind of melon. You prefer it here? Prabhupāda: This is local product? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Take some? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, please, please, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If you like little salt on it? Harikeśa: Can I have the key? To lock up the passports and . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is a drink, Śrīla Prabhupāda, made of some melon, different melon. Prabhupāda: This is also local? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, that is very local. Is that sweet, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, it is nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It can become very sweet. Sometimes it is very, very sweet. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: (aside to Nandarāṇī's daughters) Candramukhī? Vilāsinī? Prabhupāda: So, very nice. Like bael . In India, like bael . So nice fruits. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can I serve the devotees, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is so nice. You can distribute this also. All the devotees. Do they eat meat very much? Parivrājakācārya: Yes, they are learning. Before ten years ago, they were . . . everyone was very good Muslim, and they would eat a little bit of sheep. But today they are learning the . . . Prabhupāda: Beef. Parivrājakācārya: Beef. Because they think the more they are like Americans, the better they are. But they have so many fruits and vegetables here, the land gives them so many wonderful things, but they think that they must eat meat. Dayānanda: There is an old poem, an old epic poem that we were told about that states that many thousands of years ago the Iranians were all vegetarian. Prabhupāda: It is Āryan culture. Iranian means Āryan. It is a apabhraṁśa of Ārya, Irāya . And they are called Parsis. Parsis still, those who fled away from this place, they are just like Hindu . They have got sacred thread. In India. Parivrājakācārya: They keep a sacred fire. Prabhupāda: Still there are, here? Parivrājakācārya: A few, a few temples here. Prabhupāda: They are fire worshipers, Sūrya . . . (indistinct) . . . out of them. Their marriage ceremony is just like Hindus. (to guests entering) Namaskāra , Hare Kṛṣṇa. Parivrājakācārya: The language is very . . . Prabhupāda: You have taken prasādam ? Ātreya Ṛṣi: You have food? Prasādam ? Mustafa: Yes. Parivrājakācārya: Their whole language here is very similar to Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You can read this also. This is in Sanskrit. (to Iranian student) You understand English? Mustafa: English. Prabhupāda: Very good. Your country is very nice. So nice food, fruits. Mustafa: Yes. Nice to meet you. *Prabhupāda: Formerly, from Kashmir to central Asia, it was known as Bhū*-svarga, especially Kashmir. Bhū-svarga. Dayānanda: Heaven on earth. Prabhupāda: Yes, heaven on the earthly planet. *Parivrājakācārya: We noticed that in one of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam s you mentioned that Kardama Muni had his āśrama . . . Kaśyapa Muni I mean, on the shore of the Caspian Sea, which is just an hour from here by plane—it's ninety kilometers. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, Caspian Sea. (drinking juice) This is made from a kind of fruit. *Nava*-yauvana: Yes, a kind of melon. Prabhupāda: They are saying that the moon is full of dust. And dust is so brilliant? We have to believe this? The rascals, they are making this proposal. Huh? What do you think? Dayānanda: I don't think they know actually what they are talking about, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, actually that is fact. It is similar planet like the sun, but it is surrounded by cold atmosphere, therefore it is so pleasing. And because it is far away from the sun—the distance between moon and earth is more than the distance between the sun and the earth—therefore sun looks bigger and it looks smaller. We are contemplating having a planetarium with electric arrangement. You'll have to work. The whole planetary system is moving from east to west, and the sun, moon and the seven . . . (indistinct) . . . they are up and down. (to child) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. He can speak? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, just a few words. Prabhupāda: Two years? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Almost. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have got any fruit tree in the garden? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Some pear trees, some apple. Prabhupāda: Peach? No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No peach. We used to have a cherry tree, but it died. We also have a pomegranate tree. Prabhupāda: Good pomegranate? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Not very good. Prabhupāda: These boys, do they inquire about something? (coughing heavily) Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Hussein Prabhu has been coming here for . . . Prabhupāda: Bring some spittoon. You can keep it here. They understand English? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They understand English, yes, some English. Hussein Prabhu has been coming here for a few months. He's chanting. He's a very, very pious boy. Before he came here, he was chanting names of God and following the four regulations. Prabhupāda: Very good. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very nice. And he is coming recently. He's also interested. He is a vegetarian, does not eat meat, and he's following the four regulations, and he's starting to chant now. Prabhupāda: And he . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: He's been coming for two, three months. He's chanting sixteen rounds, and as I said, before he came here, he was chanting various names of God as they are prescribed in Koran. And when he saw that we were chanting names of God, he immediately became attracted. He said: "This is right." Because he knows also that from Koran he should chant the names of God. Prabhupāda: Oh. In the Koran chanting is recommended? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, definitely. *Prabhupāda: The more you chant God's name, your heart becomes cleansed. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates as Prabhupāda speaks) Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). So God has many names. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended God's name must be . . . it doesn't matter the language is different. Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktiḥ (CC Antya 20.16). In each name the full power of God is there. Hussein: (speaks in Arabic) *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hussein Prabhu says that his goal in life is to translate your Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, this is Hussein. He's a very, very sincere boy. Prabhupāda: So do it immediately. Somebody, some Arabian student made some translation? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, there was some translations of *Īśopaniṣad* . . . Prabhupāda: Where he is, that boy? Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . into Arabic. He's in Europe. He is Palestinian boy. He is asking how should this translation be done? What is your recommendation, if you have any suggestion? Prabhupāda: Of course, I am not well versed in your language, but you simply, if you understand that English and translate it into Parsi, that will do. As it is, you translate. Don't make any change. Then it will be all right. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates) And when there is difficulty, you can ask Ātreya Ṛṣi. Harikeśa. (pause) Prabhupāda: Where is Harikeśa? Harikeśa? (Ātreya Ṛṣi leaves to find him) Where he is? *Nava*-yauvana: Mustafa asked a question: How to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness in this country? It seems difficult to him, because the people's reaction . . . it's very foreign. The outward appearance of devotees is very strange to them. He wants to know how this philosophy can be spread here. Prabhupāda: The first thing is that what do you mean by Kṛṣṇa. That is to be understood. "Kṛṣṇa" means God. So if you have no objection to chant the name of God, then there is no difference of opinion. Now first of all I may ask you, "What do you mean by God?" You are chanting the holy name of God, and people may ask you, "What do you mean by God?" Because especially nowadays . . . (aside) No, there is matches? Give this. (devotees lighting incense) Come near. So first question will be, "What do you mean by God?" If I, I or anybody, ask you, "What do you mean by God?" Mustafa: I cannot explain, because now . . . Prabhupāda: But that you must explain. If you are chanting the name of God, then you must know what do you mean by God. Mustafa: Mean, when I feel, I will get spiritual, my feeling Prabhupāda: No, no the spiritual, what do you mean by spiritual? Mustafa: Means I put everything is bad and dirty inside, and I feel it's dirty really, and I make it out, all of them. Prabhupāda: What is inside and what is outside? Mustafa: Outside? I don't know what is inside. Prabhupāda: Then you do not know. You do not know outside, inside? Mustafa: When I do wrong, for example. When I do lie, when I do something, when I see wrong. Prabhupāda: Wrong . . . one thing is wrong in my country, and that is right in your country. Just like animal slaughter is wrong according to our Vedic civilization. Unnecessary animal slaughter is forbidden. But in your country or in other Western countries, they kill so many animals. So what is wrong, what is right? Who will decide? Mustafa: That's the reason I don't kill animals and I don't eat meat, for three years now. Prabhupāda: That's very good, very good idea. (Ātreya Ṛṣi explains what Prabhupāda is asking to Mustafa in Persian) When we want God, to understand, we must try to understand what is God, what do you mean by God. The God definition is given in the dictionary . . . what is that? "Supreme being." Ātreya Ṛṣi: Supreme controller? Prabhupāda: "Supreme controller." So how do you understand that supreme controller? What do you mean by supreme controller? In this way we should try to understand what is the idea carried by the word "God." We have got . . . in our Vedic language, we have got definition of God, that, "God" means He must possess all the wealth. Just like in Persia you have got so many wealthy persons, but nobody can claim, even the Shah cannot claim, that he possesses the all the wealth. That is not possible, Persia. Do you follow what I say? (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates throughout) So this is one of the items, that God is the richest, or He possesses all the wealth. Similarly, He possesses all the strength, He possesses all the beauty, He possesses all knowledge, and He is the renouncer also, the most exalted renouncer. Although He possesses so many things, He is renounced. Just like this universe is the property of God, but He has given to you, all the living entity, "Now you wanted to enjoy, enjoy it to your best capacity." He doesn't interfere. "All right, you go on." And we are trying to enjoy this material world to our best capacity. Just like in Iran, you are trying to enjoy by exploiting the oil. Similarly, somebody is exploiting. It is all God's property. He doesn't interfere. "All right, enjoy." This is renouncement. His property, He does not come to interfere. God knows how this universe is made. So many big, big scientists, they are trying to understand what is the constitution, how this universe is made, how it is created. Nobody knows, but He knows. Just like you have got this body, I have got this body, but we do not know everything of this body. I do not know how many hairs are there. Is it not? So, so many things. I am eating, and it is transformed into blood, and it is directed towards brain, towards other parts of the body, and we are working very strong. But we do not know how things are happening, although I am claiming I am this body, "I am my body." But God knows every particular, any . . . anvayād itarataḥ (SB 1.1.1). How the stone is made, He knows. How this flower is colored, He knows. That is called wise, wisdom. Vedāhaṁ sarvam . . . saramam etam. He knows. That is God. He is the possessor of all wealth, all knowledge, all beauty, all strength, all influence. In this way you have to understand God. Hari-śauri: They've brought the prasādam up now or? Prabhupāda: You can bring here. Who is there in the bathroom? Hari-śauri: They're just cleaning it out. They're giving you the big bathroom because it has a Western toilet and a nice shower and separate everything. It's very nice. And we'll use the small one. They're just cleaning it now. If you want, you can use. Prabhupāda: Close this door; otherwise if you come there, it will be disturbance. Harikeśa: Nandarāṇī's making khicuṛi with the peas and okra. Prabhupāda: Okra could be done separately. Let her do independently. Ātreya Ṛṣi: She's doing both. She first mixed it, now she's also making separate. Prabhupāda: Oh. Anyway, let her do it. She was cooking for me in Māyāpur. Harikeśa: I heard you liked it very much. Prabhupāda: Yes. The more you become eager to know God, God will reveal Himself. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates as Prabhupāda speaks) From our side, we should not be stereotyped. People in different sects of religion, they say: "We believe." But they do not want to go further than they believe. That is very difficult. You must be dynamic and progressive, then you will have. I have talked with many sects, especially Christian priests. They will say: "We believe"—no more further than that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Prabhupāda: So knowledge is not like that. Knowledge must be progressive. "We believe there is no soul of the animal"—bās, fixed up. You believe like a rascal, so I shall remain rascal. What is this? We should be progressive. That is wanted. Of course, in the lower stage one may have a type of belief, but if you want more clearly, you must be progressive. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates) According to Vedānta system, the life, human life, is only for inquiring about Brahman: athāto brahma jijñāsā. We shall talk again. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- August 8, 1976, Tehran Ātreya Ṛṣi: If there are planets, Śrīla Prabhupāda, like the sun planet, where . . . Prabhupāda: We get information from the śāstra , every planet is full of life. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, that there is life in um, some planets. *Prabhupāda: Jana*-kīrṇa , this very word is used, jana-kīrṇa , "congested with life." And we have got description, this loka , this loka , this loka is fighting sometimes with other loka , or that . . . everything is description there. There is milk ocean, there is this ocean, that ocean, varieties of. So if we have to take these rascals' version—they're simply rogues—then the whole śāstra becomes false. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The point in the śāstra is that every . . . Prabhupāda: And they will advertise that these description in the śāstras , they are all mythology. Of course, this kind of bluffing cannot go, because suppose this Mars expedition becomes a failure, like that, the same . . . it will be failure. So next time, if they propose, I think people will be hesitant to go. Simply bringing people rocks and sands, without any utility, after spending so much money. How long they can repeat this, "Yes, we went to this planet, rocks. We went to this—rocks." So we see variety. If you . . . the so many luminaries, simply rocks and sands? The moon is full of rocks, and it's so illuminating? Whole universe is illuminated so nice, moonshine. So many stars illuminating, and they're rocks and sand? We have to believe it? Jñānagamya: They are saying there is life on Mars. They are seeing microbes, small little living entities. They are detecting these with their machines. So they are seeing, there is some life. Prabhupāda: Microbes? Jñānagamya: Microbe, you know, like microscopic . . . *Prabhupāda: Why they can see only microbes, not a fully grown*-up human being? Jñānagamya: No, they are detecting through gas. They feed the microbes, and then microbes give off evacuation . . . Prabhupāda: How they can see? Suppose you see from a distant place, this planet. So how you can see within water? You can take photograph of the water, but how you can take photograph within the water? So what is the value of their taking photograph? Does the photograph takes the picture within the water? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of such photograph? Jñānagamya: But they are not detecting with photographs, they are detecting with chemicals. Prabhupāda: What . . . (indistinct) . . . chemical? Jñānagamya: They say the chemicals are giving off gases when they are feeding the earth. They take the ground from Mars . . . Prabhupāda: Just see so many bogus words they manufacture to make believe. Because they are scientist, they'll talk all big, big words which we cannot understand. So you cannot argue. (talks gibberish) Like that. By common sense question, that they are simply finding out rocks and sand, and again they are saying somebody has bombed. The first . . . (coughing) If there is bomb, then there is fight; so if there is fight, there must be human being. *Harikeśa: He was the one that told me about that, about the canyon and the bombed*-out place. Jñānagamya: Yes, I was working for USIS, US Information Service, and I had a commission to paint a large picture of this Mars landing ship, and they had information coming back that they were finding a long blockhouse with a big crater in the center, like a building that had been bombed. Fourteen kilometer crater. They had a picture like that. It appeared to be a building. But they are all cheaters. I used to live in Florida where they send up these . . . they are all drunkards. They drink alcohol, very unserious. Prabhupāda: Oh, then they can manufacture. All drunkards, they are in charge of this fighting. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, if there are some visitors, can they come up? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Will we have readings, or would you like to talk with them? Prabhupāda: Let them come, we shall see. My point is, why they do not see any other spot? Only these spots are visible, where there are rocks. They say Howrah station is closed. No sane man will believe that, that Howrah station is closed. Jñānagamya: They do not want to upset the illusion that they are God, that they are the only ones in the universe. So if they find out there is life on another planet, they will not like it. If there is higher life somewhere else, they will not like that. They are always in competition. Prabhupāda: And all the higher lives are in Europe and America. Especially in America, eh? That is their mania. They do not like that there may be higher lives, you said. They like it that there may not be any higher life. That is their preconception. Jñānagamya: Yes. This is the highest here, cannot be any higher. They will not accept. Prabhupāda: Just see how much biased they are. *Jñānagamya: They cannot accept another philosophy. They will not accept philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā because it is from another country. They do not like that. Prabhupāda: Ah, now you can see their attitude. *Jñānagamya: So it is very good. On the abridged Bhagavad*-gītā we have Americans, Emerson and Thoreau, saying this is a wonderful book. That is very good, that is very impressive to Americans. They will accept if some great Americans have said. *Prabhupāda: That was my policy from the very beginning, that if the Americans accept, then my mission will be successful. And that is being done gradually, and I am insisting that preach in America vigorously. If America accept, then whole world will accept. That's a fact. Anywhere, although America may be fallen, the ideal is American, everywhere. Because they have got money. Kali*-yuga means money. If you have got money, then you have got culture, you have got education, you have got everything. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Formerly, they were attached, family, aristocracy, culture, education. Nowadays there is no such thing. Get money and you get everything. It is not? Somehow or other, if you have got control over money then you have got everything. Bring that black Bhāgavata . What is that sound coming? There is goat? Parivrājakācārya: I think a lamb, sheep. Prabhupāda: Lamb. Parivrājakācārya: Yes. Prabhupāda: They keep lambs for . . .? Parivrājakācārya: For sacrificing. Prabhupāda: They sacrifice at home? Parivrājakācārya: The Koran says that you should sacrifice the animal at home, with his head pointing toward Mecca. Prabhupāda: Huh? Parivrājakācārya: With the head of the animal towards Mecca. Prabhupāda: Mecca, oh. Parivrājakācārya: And you let the blood of the animal flow toward Mecca, and then you can eat an animal. So they keep many sheep here just for that purpose. Prabhupāda: Oh. So at least they do not recommend to purchase from the slaughterhouse. That is also good. Jñānagamya: But they have slaughterhouse. *Parivrājakācārya: But the Koran restricts meat*-eating. Prabhupāda: It is restriction. Parivrājakācārya: Yes. So this is what we explain—we say if it is good, then why is it restricted? Prabhupāda: That is good explanation. What do they say? Parivrājakācārya: They say, well, Muhammad did it. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But this is restriction. There is light in the veranda? Jñānagamya: Yes, there is light. Yes. Prabhupāda: So let us go so that you can sit comfortably. You can take this little pillow. Parivrājakācārya: Would you like a glass of water, Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That janma*-acarana , that Twelfth Canto, Third Chapter. I shall like to sit down . . . (indistinct) Parivrājakācārya: Is that cushion all right? Prabhupāda: Now in the beginning . . . Pradyumna: The beginning of Third Chapter? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: The Third Chapter begins, dṛṣṭvātmani jaye vyagrān . That's Third Chapter. Prabhupāda: Second Chapter. *Pradyumna: Second Chapter, tataś cānu*-dinaṁ dharmaḥ. Prabhupāda: Ah. Pradyumna: It says carma ? Cara ? Prabhupāda: Dharmaḥ cara . Pradyumna: Oh. Prabhupāda: Now you begin that. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Vittam eva , that's it. Vittam eva ? *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ Prabhupāda: Ah. Vittam means money. So if you have got money, then you are coming from high family. There is no consideration of Brahmin, kṣatriya. If you have got money, then you are everything. Vittam eva hi ? *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ . *Prabhupāda: Ah. Janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ. That is practical, we see. If you have got money, then people will come to you, "Oh, you are so learned, you are so qualified." Just like George, or John Lennon. What qualification they have got? But people will go there and take them as very highly learned and scholar and everything. The press reporters take their opinion. But what is their qualification? The qualification, by selling some records they have got money, that's all. What is that qualification? Now of course, they are coming to—George at least—coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, from qualification point of view, they are not learned, educated in university, or they have got any spiritual asset, born Brahmin family, nothing. Simply money. We also go and flatter them to get some money. (laughs) So this is Kali-yuga. Vittam eva. If you have got money, then you have got everything. Therefore people are after so much money, after money. Vittam eva , hmm? Read that? Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: dharma*-nyāya . In India we have seen that you bribe the brāhmaṇas and they'll give decision in your favor. And it is experienced by everyone. In the law court you bribe even the high-court judge, he'll give judgment in your . . . that is proven. One big judge—not now, at least fifty years ago, or more than that—his business was to take bribe, high-court judge, very learned judge. He was asked. He'll give judgement if you give him ten thousand rupees. So other brother high-court judges, they knew it. So in one case he was just arranging for this, and the chief justice called him that, "You immediately resign and go home, otherwise this arrangement you have made, it will be exposed." So he had no other alternative. He immediately resigned, and on some plea like "My heart is palpitating," so in this way he left the court, and then he was never allowed again. And when his friends asked him that "Why you are doing this?" so he said, "What can I do? I have got at least ten thousand rupees' expenditure per month and I get only four thousand." That was his . . . he was very able lawyer. By private practice he was earning more, but this practice . . . and nowadays it has come to, at least in India, anywhere you go, and bribe, and you get a favorable decision. (guests arrive) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall be sitting inside or here? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Wherever you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I can like anywhere. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is good, this is good. Prabhupāda: But these gentlemen? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They will be . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Sit down. So let them come near; our men may go there. You can sit down. Let them come forward. (discussion as guests change places) Take, give them. Yes. You can give room light also. Jñānagamya: Inside. Inside the room. Prabhupāda: That's it. So, there is introduction? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Hamidi. He's a friend of mine at work, and he's very much is interested in both Indian and Iranian spiritual life, in culture as it is. And this is Peter. He has been coming here on Fridays. Prabhupāda: He's American? Peter: English. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. And he's come and taken prasādam , and we talk to him sometimes. Jñānagamya: He offers pūjā to Lord Buddha. He's worshiping Lord Buddha. He has an altar. Prabhupāda: The other boy? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Siva, Mr. Siva from Malaysia. He's Hindu, I believe. And he's recently come to visit us. Next is Dr. Rulf, he is from Holland. He is an economist, and he is working here, and we have . . . I've been acquainted with him through business. And that is Reza. He has been coming here for a long time, he's been chanting. Prabhupāda: He's trying to be . . . (indistinct) . . . both? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So Iranian spiritual culture and Indian spiritual culture, you told me? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So first of all, what is spiritual culture? Mr. Hamidi: Sufism. Prabhupāda: No, not . . . just like gold. Mr. Hamidi: Oh, the gold . . . Prabhupāda: I'll explain. Gold, either in Iran or in India, gold is gold. You cannot say "Iranian gold" or "Indian gold." That is not possible. Similarly, when you says: "Iranian spiritual culture" and "Indian spiritual culture," the common point is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture is one. It cannot be Iranian, Indian, or anywhere belonging to some sycophant. Just like this moon. This moon is now on Iran. But that does not mean it's Iranian moon. Or the sun, it does not mean Iranian sun. Moon is one. Either in India or in Iran, the moon is moon. You cannot say "Iranian moon" or "Indian moon." So spiritual culture is one, and material culture is one. Therefore I'm asking, "What do you mean by spiritual culture?" That is my question. Then we shall consider whether it is Iranian or Indian or . . . what is your idea of spiritual culture? Mr. Hamidi: Of course, I believe that they're all the same, but . . . Prabhupāda: No, same . . . but you must explain at least. I want to know that how far you have understood spiritual culture as it is. That is my question. Mr. Hamidi: Well, of course, it is very difficult to differentiate. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is difficult. Practically you do not know what is spiritual culture. That is a fact. So first of all, you must try to understand what is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture means . . . there are two things within our experience: matter and spirit. So matter is this body, and spirit is the soul within the body. Without spirit, this material body has no value. That we experience every day. When a man is dead, we take it, "Now the body is useless. Throw it away." Therefore the body is important so long the spirit soul is there. And that is spirit. And when we study that spirit soul, that is the beginning of spiritual culture. If you have no idea of what is that spirit, then there is no question of spiritual culture. With this body we cannot make any progress of spiritual culture. That is not possible. The body is matter. They're explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , antavanta ime dehā . Bring Bhagavad-gītā . Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ . So try to understand what is spirit, what is matter. Pradyumna: Translation: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction; therefore, fight, O descendant of Bharata." Prabhupāda: Only the material body is subject to destruction. Eh? Pradyumna: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction." Prabhupāda: Yes, the body's destructible, but the spirit soul is not destructible. When you understand this point, then we understand what is spirit, and then spiritual culture begins. Without being convinced of this spirit soul, there is no question of spiritual culture. So the spirit soul is described as eternal. And the proof is given, eternity. Just like there are so many children. They'll grow up from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood. The body is changing. This is very practical. But the spirit soul is there, the same spirit soul which was within the womb of the mother in a small body, then coming out of the mother's womb. The same spirit soul is there, but the body is different. In this way, the body is being situated in different status, but we know that the proprietor of the body is the same. Is there any difficulty to understand? Anyone? The body is changing, that's a fact. You are young man. You'll have to become an old man like me. That means body will change. But so far you are concerned, you are the same. So, the body changes and the spirit soul remains the same. This is to be understood first of all. What is the difficulty? First of all, you must distinguish what is spirit, what is matter. Material culture means this body is there, it requires some necessities. The body must be given something to eat. Is it not? Eating? Then the body must be given some rest, sleeping, for which we require some apartment, some place. Not we, but also even the animals, birds, they have got their nest, or the animal has got some hole or something. So eating, sleeping, and some sense gratification, sex. These are bodily necessities. But when you understand what is spirit, then we must try to find out what is spiritual necessities. That is spiritual culture. You cannot go on with the bodily culture as spiritual culture. That is a mistake. Spiritual culture is different from the bodily culture. And when we understand it, then there is no question of "Iranian spiritual culture" or "Indian spiritual culture." Spiritual culture is one, as bodily culture is also one. It does not mean that only Indians eat and the Iranians do not eat. The Iranians also eat, because they're bodily necessities. Similarly, spiritual culture also, there is some necessities which is equally needed by the Iranians, by Americans, by Indians. It is not . . . just like when we say that the child grows to become a boy. This is not applicable only to the Indians or Iranians. It is applicable to everyone. Child grows everywhere. You cannot say this is Indian or Iranian. It everywhere. So if we understand what is spiritual culture what is material culture, then there is no question of Iranian or Indian or English or American. Spiritual culture is the same everywhere. So any question on this point? Any difficulty to understand? (pause) Prabhupāda: Spiritual culture or material culture, it is one and the same everywhere. There cannot be any difference. Materially, we want to cover this body, some dress. Everyone has got dress. You cannot say this is Iranian dress or it is Indian dress. Dress is dress, that's all. So any question on this point? Mr. Hamidi: Isn't it the approach which makes it different? Prabhupāda: This is the approach, that first of all you distinguish what is matter, what is spirit. This is the approach. Mr. Hamidi: Well, perhaps, the spiritual culture, what we mean by that, all the rituals, all the different approach . . . Prabhupāda: No, rituals, we shall come later on. First of all, let us understand what is matter, what is spirit. Unless we understand what is matter and what is spirit, there is no question of spiritual culture. Then you'll be misguided. By material culture, you will pass on as spiritual culture. And that is going on. (pause) Jñānagamya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the goal once one understands what is spirit and what is matter? What is the goal past that? Prabhupāda: Goal is there, because spirit is important. Without spirit, matter has no value. This is a material box, but because it has no spirit, it has no value. It has value, comparatively, but not as valuable as a human being because there is no spirit. You can move, if you like; you can go immediately. But this, for many thousands of years it will lie down here. It cannot move, because there is no spirit. Therefore spirit is important. So this distinction is possible to understand in the human form of body. What is the distinction between a human being or a living man and this box? The distinction is that the living being has the spirit soul within and the box has no spirit soul within. Now if we take care of this box outwardly, that we should take; similarly if you take care of the body only, then where is spiritual culture? If you take care of the four principles of bodily necessities—eating, sleeping and sex and defense—then where is spiritual culture? The aim should be spiritual culture, at least for human being. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand what is the distinction between spirit and soul, er, spirit and matter, but a human being can understand that, "This is spiritual side; this is material side. The spiritual side is important." Therefore the goal is how to understand the spiritual side. (break) That is the goal. If we don't cultivate the spiritual side, simply we take care of the bodily side, then we remain animals. And because people are taking only care for the body, this is animal civilization. Human civilization means to take care of the spiritual side. If there is no such attempt to take care of the spiritual side, simply for the material side, then we are no better than the animals. Because they cannot take any care of the spiritual side; they can take care of the material side. Peter: Is the soul dependent upon the body for its existence? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Soul is dependent? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Upon the body for existence. Prabhupāda: Yes. At the present moment, the soul is dependent on the material body because he has no spiritual culture. Just like we Indians, we were under the British rule. So long there was no national movement, they remained dependent on the Britishers. But as soon as there was national movement, they became independent. This is a crude example. Similarly, because we have no spiritual cultivation, we are dependent on this material body. Actually, the soul is not dependent on the body. It has become so under certain condition: because he's thinking that he is this body. They have been described as mūḍha. Mūḍha is an ass. Mūḍha means ass. So I do not know what it is here. In India the asses are kept by the washerman. The washerman loads tons of cloth on the back of the ass to take it to the waterside, and again he brings back to the washerman shop, and the washerman gives a morsel of grass, little, and he eats the grass and stands there to carry the tons of load, thinking that he's dependent on the washerman. He has no intelligence that, "The grass can be had anywhere. Why I am dependent on this washerman to carry so much load?" Lack of knowledge. Similarly, we are dependent on this body for lack of spiritual knowledge. As soon as he'll be enlightened by spiritual knowledge, then no more dependence. Therefore it is needed. Otherwise, he'll remain like an ass, perpetually dependent on the washerman. Mūḍha . We are thinking that without this body we cannot live. No. That is not the fact. We can live independently of this body. But our present position, because we have no spiritual culture, we are thinking that we are dependent on this body. Actually, we are not dependent. That will be revealed the more you advance in spiritual culture. What was his question before? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is your question satisfied? Peter: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: (referring to something in room) It is something like gum? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Does it require change? No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Change? Yes. Prabhupāda: No, I have got it filled in my . . . (indistinct) Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, it's finished after a while. Just twenty minutes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Then I shall put another? Dependence for twenty minutes. That is my dependence, for twenty minutes or twenty years or twenty millions of years. There are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty minutes. And there are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty years. And there are many animals who depend on the body for twenty millions of years. It is a question of proportion. But actually the spirit soul is not dependent on any type of body twenty minutes or twenty years and twenty millions of years. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Find out this. Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendent nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: Somebody else? Ātreya Ṛṣi: There are some guests coming. (background discussion as guests move around) Prabhupāda: Come forward. No, let them come in. So whether these gentlemen's questions are answered? If they have got any doubt, we can . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Through association they will ask more questions. Prabhupāda: What is that verse? Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: So this is the process of becoming independent of the material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is the process. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to make one independent of this material body. Any other questions? Then bring my beads. (long pause) Prabhupāda: My question is whether you like to remain dependent on this material body. Hmm? If you can live spiritually independent, whether you should remain dependent on this material body, and whether to remain dependent on this material body is happy or it is distress? What is your realization? To remain dependent on this material body, is it very good or is it troublesome, huh? Peter: Suffering. Prabhupāda: Suffering, very good. If you remain dependent on this material body, then suffering. So why don't you become independent? That is the next question. Peter: Attachment. Prabhupāda: Attachment, maybe. That is not a very important thing. But if there is a process, how to become independent of this body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. Just like a man suffering from illness—attachment or no attachment, he's now suffering from that illness—but he has put himself into hospitalization under some physician. So that process will cure him, and he'll not suffer from this disease. That is the hope. Or that is the fact. Similarly, circumstantially, we may be dependent on this material body, but if there is a process how we can become independent of the body, why should we not take it? The same example: If a man is diseased, he's captured by the disease. Attachment or no attachment, it is difficult. But he must put himself under treatment so that he can be detached from it. That is intelligence. "I am caught by the disease. So let me suffer without any treatment," that is not intelligence. I must take the process of treatment by which . . . that is explained there, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Take this treatment so that after giving up this body you'll not have any more material body. And as soon as you become free from this material body, there is no suffering. But as soon as you get material body, you must suffer. So if there is way and means to avoid this material body, and remain in our original, spiritual body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. And is very simple thing. (aside) Read it again. Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities, does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: Purport? *Pradyumna: "The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the sixth verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage, and therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body. Such liberation of the living entity from material bondage is not at all easy. The impersonalists and the yogīs attain liberation only after much trouble and many, many births. Even then, the liberation they achieve, merging into the impersonal brahma*-jyotir of the Lord, is only partial, and there's the risk of returning again to this material world. But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning again to this material world. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated that the Lord has many, many forms and incarnations: advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (BS 5.33). Although there are many transcendental forms of the Lord, they are still one and the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. One has to understand this fact with conviction, although it is incomprehensible to mundane scholars and empiric philosophers. As stated in the Vedas :" "The one Supreme Personality of Godhead is eternally engaged in many, many transcendental forms in relationships with His unalloyed devotees.' This Vedic version is confirmed in this verse of the *Gītā* personally by the Lord. He who accepts this truth on the strength of the authority of the *Vedas* and of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and who does not waste time in philosophical speculations, attains the highest perfectional stage of liberation. Simply by accepting this truth on faith, one can, without a doubt, attain liberation. The Vedic version, tat tvam asi , is actually applied in this case. Anyone who understands Lord Kṛṣṇa to be the Supreme, or who says unto the Lord, 'You are the Supreme Brahman, the Personality of Godhead,' is certainly liberated instantly, and consequently his entrance into the transcendental association of the Lord is guaranteed. In other words, such a faithful devotee of the Lord attains perfection, and this is confirmed by the following Vedic assertion:" *"One can attain the perfect stage of liberation from birth and death simply by knowing the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no alternative, because anyone who does not understand Lord Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is surely in the mode of ignorance. Consequently he will not attain salvation simply, so to speak, by licking the outer surface of the bottle of honey, or by interpreting the Bhagavad*-gītā according to mundane scholarship. Such empiric philosophers may assume many important roles in the material world, but they are not necessarily eligible for liberation. Such puffed-up mundane scholars have to wait for the causeless mercy of the devotee of the Lord. One should therefore cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness with faith and knowledge, and in this way attain perfection." Prabhupāda: So if there is some process to become independent of this material body, why should we not accept? What is the objection? (doorbell sounds) If somebody's suffering from some disease and if there is process of curing it, why one should not take it? (long pause) Prabhupāda: So your friends' questions and answers are welcome. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They just came to listen, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, they must be satisfied. (break) Ātreya Ṛṣi: The young man who just came is Terry Graham. He'd come to see you two years ago when you were here. Prabhupāda: Oh, jaya . Ātreya Ṛṣi: He's a journalist. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I remember. So he has got any question? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Terry, do you have any questions? Terry: No. (long pause) *Terry: I have a question about this particular age. Where the world seems to be dividing itself between two kinds of materialists: the one which pays lip service to spiritual precedents but really devotes itself to self*-aggrandizement, and the other, which establishes an atheistic doctrine in the name of moral struggle with that greedy self-aggrandizement. In fact, this atheistic moral doctrine has now taken over virtually the entire Sinic world—China, Tibet, Indochina. Is there some way that . . . the question is, what is the cosmic purpose for this, and how should one come to terms with this prevailing . . . this increasingly prevailing notion that justice can be established in a material state or a material dimension? Prabhupāda: In the material world there cannot be any peace, justice, morality. It is not possible. You may try to make some adjustment, but it will never be possible. So, by their concocted imagination, they are thinking, "This way will be beneficial," but unless they come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of peace, prosperity, justice. It is not possible. Unless we come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of justice, morality, peace. It is not possible. They may attempt in different ways, by their mental speculative process, but actually it will never come to be true. They are all trying—the scientists, philosophers, politicians, religionists—to make some adjustment, but that is not possible. We must understand the material platform, these threefold miserable conditions. Just like we are trying to avoid some miserable condition, very insignificant—to get out of the disturbance created by the mosquitoes and the flies. We are trying our best, but still they are disturbing. Is it not? Still they find out some loopholes and go into the room and disturb you. So you cannot avoid. Similarly, the disturbances of nature—the severe cold, scorching heat—how you can counteract it? Is it possible? Not possible. Ādhyātmika , you may keep your body quite fit to your best knowledge, but still there will be some trouble, sometimes coughing, sometimes mental equilibrium is lost, you don't feel nice. So these things will go on. Because we have got this material body, the material conditions must work. You cannot make any adjustments. That's not possible. You have come to the spiritual platform independent of this material body, then there will be everything solved, on every purpose. They can waste their time for making an adjustment, but that is not possible. I have given some example, that everyone is trying to become free from the material disturbances, but it is not possible. Nobody is free from material disturbance. That is not possible. So if you actually want freedom from material disturbances, you have to come to the spiritual platform and cultivate spiritual knowledge and be fixed up. Then your life is successful. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is there a relationship, he's asking, between these disturbances and this age, that this time that we are living in . . . Prabhupāda: It is more or less. Sometimes you have got 110° temperature and sometimes you have got 70° temperature. But the disturbance is there. Either 110° or 70° or 30°, you'll have to feel the disturbance. You cannot stop it. So either you take the cause this age, or this country, or this atmosphere, we can say so, but it will continue. That is the nature of the material world. If you think that 110° is too much, "Let it be 100° . . ." That you concoct like that. In fact any such temperature will disturb you. That's a fact. You can think that if it would have been 100°, it would have been very nice. But that's not the fact. Either 110° or 100°, it is disturbing. That is a fact. Then how can you stop it? Anyone who wants to stop it, he's intelligent. And that is described here, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mam eti (BG 4.9). One has to understand this fundamentally, that so long I'll get this material body, I'll have to suffer. Maybe differences of degrees, but I will have to suffer. So my endeavor should be how to become independent of this material body. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Not to make a distinction of different degrees. Different degrees . . . one position . . . "One man's food, another man's poison," the same degree. If you think that it is nice, another man will suffer. So suffering will continue. That is not possible to . . . (indistinct) . . . it is the nature of material world, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). (aside) Find out this verse. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. This material world is full of miseries. That they do not understand. Miserable condition they are accepting as pleasing. That is called ignorance. Pradyumna: "After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection." *Prabhupāda: The material world is full of miseries. It may be of different degrees, but it is full of miseries. You cannot avoid by adjustment. That is not possible. Therefore the materialist, they are trying. Just like in this country, Iran, now the Iranians are trying to become as opulent as the Americans are. They are trying to build up similar cities and industries. But do you think they will be happy then? No. Are the Americans happy by having big, big cities? No. That is not possible. Now they are trying to imitate, but that is a false attempt. That is not the life. They can see that Americans have got big, big cities, they have big, big organizations, but are they happy actually or not? From practical example. Then why you are attempting again to imitate them? That intelligence is lacking. How they will be happy, they do not know it. They are trying to imitate somebody else who is already on the standard, so*-called, but still they are not happy. The Communists, they're trying for the last fifty years to become happy, but are they happy actually? No. The Russians and the Chinese, they are now differing, "No, this is not the standard. This is standard." So the same thing is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). It is like chewing the chewed, that's all. Somebody has chewed the sugarcane and it's thrown away. Another man comes, "Let me taste it." And what you'll taste? It is already finished. *So all these "isms," they are all finished. All the scientific discoveries, they are all finished. And where is happiness? This is not the way. That is the . . . mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). You have to attempt in such a way that after giving up this body, you go back home, back to Godhead, never come back again here. This is the way. Otherwise, there is no happiness. Go on struggling, that is your choice. Make new attempts. Just like this moon excursion. Ten years ago in one small book, Easy Journey to Other Planets , we predicted that this moon*-going attempt is childish and waste of time. We are not expert scientist, but from the śāstra we can understand. Now such a brilliant planet, pleasing, and they have discovered there rocks and sand. Just see their intelligence. Do you think rocks and sand is so brilliant? What do you think? This bluff is going on. People are feeling under the moonshine is so pleasing, and it is full of rocks and sand. We have to accept that. Rocks and sand, throughout the whole day by scorching heat, they also become heated. So at night it is suffering. So if it is rocks and sand, so whole day it was heated by the sunshine, how it is pleasing? . . . but if there is no material activities, then you are not affected. This is possible. Just like an iron rod, you put into the fire. Gradually, it becomes warmer, warmer, and at last, when it is red hot, it is fire, no more iron. Similarly, even though we have got this material body, if we cultivate spiritual life, then the activities of the material body will stop automatically. Therefore it is no more material body. The same example, the iron rod has become already fire. So you put it in the fire, and continue it, then you'll understand that it is no more iron rod, it is fire. Touch anywhere, it will burn. You cannot say it is iron bar. Similarly, if you become spiritually enlightened, then the material activities will stop, and then you'll be happy. (break) You'll feel, "Yes, I have got some . . . (indistinct) . . ." Peter: In the last chapter which he read, he was . . . I think you read about the yogīs who can get to this high level of consciousness and then they can still fall back. That's like, my question: what was the cause for this? *Prabhupāda: If you do not come to the point of fulfillment of your appetite—you are eating, but if you have not sufficiently eaten, then you want more to eat. But if you have sufficiently eaten, then you will say: "No, no, no. No more I want." Even if you are offered, "Take more food." You'll say: "No, I have enough." It is a question of sufficiency and insufficiency. If you are insufficiently spiritually advanced, you'll feel vacancy so much. But if you are sufficiently advanced, then you'll say: "It is all right now." It is a question of sufficiency, insufficiency. So other method, jñāna , yoga , they are insufficient. And bhakti*-yoga is sufficient. Therefore you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). (aside) Find out this verse. He never recommends jñāna , yoga , karma . Bhakti . So if you take the path of bhakti , then you'll feel sufficiency. Otherwise, you'll feel insufficient. To some extent, although it is perfect, but it is not completely perfect. Pradyumna: "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." Prabhupāda: That's it. Unless you enter into the kingdom of God, you'll not feel full satisfaction. Even if you go to the moon planet or Mars planet, there is no question of satisfaction. Ātreya Ṛṣi: (to guest) So your question is whether one can enter this kingdom of God with this body. *Prabhupāda: No, that is already explained— tyaktvā dehaṁ . Giving up this body, one can enter in spiritual world. Viśate tad*-anantaram —after death. By bhakti , when he's mature and he gives up this body, then he enters into the spiritual world. Tyaktvā deham, giving up this body. You cannot enter; *although by devotional service the material activities of the body will stop, but you have to wait for the moment when this material body is no more existing, then with spiritual body you can enter. Tyaktvā deham, mām eti. Viśate tad*-anantaram. Tad-anantaram : after death. And if you have got little pinch of material attachment, then you'll have to accept another material body. So we have come to the point that no more I want anything material. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). I am no more anyone's servant. I am neither American nor Iranian nor Indian nor Hindu nor Muslim, not this, not that; I'm simply servant of . . . that is my position. And so long I shall keep attachment for this designation, temporary . . . what is this "Iranian," "American," "Indian"? Say for few years. Because you have to change this body. Tyaktvā deham. Tathā dehāntaram . So after giving up this body, you have to accept another body. If I am in the next body I become a sparrow, then where is my conception of Iranian, Indian and Hindu, and Muslim? I am sparrow, jumping like sparrow, that's all. So these are designations, temporary designations. One has to become free from these temporary designations. Then he's liberated. That is bhakti . So this life should be utilized for purifying ourself from this designation. If you keep the designation, then there is no possibility of purification. You'll get another designation. Now we are Indian or Iranian, next a sparrow or a crow or a tree or a demigod—another designation. Just like the same: the child, a baby, on the lap of the mother, a baby; and another designation, boy; another designation, young man; another designation, old man. But the spirit soul is the same. He's simply changing designation. So freedom means freedom from these all these designations. I am spirit, ahaṁ brahmāsmi . I am spirit soul, my business is spiritual activity. So long we want to keep designation, you'll have to accept material body and suffer. *So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to educate people how to become free from designations. Therefore we accept from any group. He might think that he is under designation . . . but our business is to make him free from the designation. We therefore welcome anyone. He may come with designation, but if he lives with us, he follows our rules and regulations, he become free from designation. And this so*-called designated religious system will not help us. If we keep ourself on the designated platform—"I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Iranian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am Buddhist"—then we have to continue in that designation. There is no question of freedom. That requires tapasya . That designationless status is called brahma-bhūtaḥ . And the opposite of brahma-bhūtaḥ is jīva-bhutaḥ. Jīva-bhutaḥ . . . there are so many jīvas , living entities. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." And the bird is thinking, "I am bird." The man is thinking, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." So this designation, you may be a dog designation or Hindu designation or Muslim, they are the same. There is no difference. Maybe some degrees. But one has to become designationless. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Then bhakti , when one is designationless. If he wants to keep his designation, then there is no question of bhakti . The bhakti line is so nice that if you take to bhakti line, automatically you'll be designationless. (pause) Prabhupāda: Now you have to decide whether you want to keep designation or become free from designation. (pause) Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, thank you very much. (guests leave) (break) Pradyumna: . . . activity, but he still has designation and he comes to the temple and he chants, but he still thinks . . . Prabhupāda: That is an attempt to become designationless. But one has to become free from designation. The same example: If the rod is put in the fire, it is becoming warm, warmer, warmer, and when it is red hot it is no more rod, it is fire. So beginning of life, neophyte stage, is the beginning. When he actually becomes advanced in devotional service, that is designationless. Pradyumna: But we still call that, when a person first comes and he still has that designation stage, but we still call that bhakti ? Prabhupāda: No, he's on the platform. Just like the same example. The iron rod is put in the fire. So it is fiery condition. Similarly, one who has given to devotional service, he is in the designationless condition, but it requires time to make the iron rod exactly fire. Pradyumna: Same thing as that pulling the plug out of the fan. Prabhupāda: Huh? Pradyumna: Same example, pulling the plug out and fan keeps going for some . . . *Prabhupāda: There are so many examples. There are so many examples. The beginning stage and the perfect stage. Perfect stage, designationless. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, in the beginning, api cet su*-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30): even he's not completely a devotee, still, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ , you must accept him as a devotee. Why? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. He has taken to the process completely. So there may be some designations of his on account of past habit, but because he has taken to the process of becoming designationless, he is sādhu . If he sticks to the principle, kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati (BG 9.31), he'll very soon he'll become a perfect devotee and he'll get peace— śaśvac-chānti-kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati . These things are there. So one has to take the line of Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, then everything automatically will appear. There is no . . . that is called utsāhān dhairyāt. Dhairyāt , patience. Niścayād : "I have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness exactly as Kṛṣṇa wants, then I'll surely be perfect." That is niścayād . There is no doubt about it. If I am following the direction of Kṛṣṇa under the guidance of spiritual master, be sure that you'll be successful. There is no question of becoming unsuccessful. Niścayād . But if I am deviating, that is my . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you follow, then you'll be sure to be successful. Jñānagamya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that what Lord Caitanya is trying to teach Haridāsa Ṭhākura when he says, "Put away your excess humility"? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jñānagamya: Haridāsa Ṭhākura is following all the principles, but he's always feeling so fallen. So Lord Caitanya tells him, "Put away your excess humility." Is this what He is trying to teach him? That we should have assurance? *Prabhupāda: Assurance is there. Kṛṣṇa says, kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhakta . . . (BG 9.31). If you remain pure devotee, you'll never fall down. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). These are assurances. If you simply try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, why does He come, what are His activities, janma karma ca me divyam , simply . . . this is cultivation, to understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa consciousness cultivation. And Kṛṣṇa assures, tyaktvā dehaṁ : you have to give up this body. But for a devotee giving up this body means no more accepting another body. And nondevotees giving up this body, tathā dehāntara prāptir : another body. That is the difference between devotee and nondevotee. One may say both of them are dying. Yes, they are dying, that's all right. They are not dying—nobody is dying—but changing the body. But a devotee's changing not to accept any more material body. The nondevotees changing to accept another. That is the difference. And if you accept another body you will suffer, more or less, degrees. And if you don't accept material body, then you become spiritually situated. Sac*-cid-ānanda vigraha (BS 5.1), simply ānanda , eternally blissful. Very easy. *So we should be intelligent enough that if by practicing in this one life I can get next eternal, blissful life of knowledge, why shall I deviate? Even if there is some difficulty, let me tolerate. What is the difficulty? Caitanya Mahāprabhu given so easy, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and everything will be done perfectly. So where is the difficulty? No difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has not bluffed. He said kalau nāsty eva : in Kali*-yuga you cannot do anything more. You do, simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty now? A boy can chant. It is simply practice, association. Your son, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. *So these chances should be given to everyone, then everything will be all right. Let him be practiced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then everything will go on. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Where is the difficulty, unless we make it difficult? Otherwise there is no difficulty. Otherwise suffering. Just like this lamb. It has got the Iranian body, but he's kept there for being killed. So what is the benefit of this Iranian body? But people are very much enthusiastic to remain nationalists, "I am Iranian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that." So, but he has worked in a different way, so he has got attachment for becoming American and Iranian, "All right you become." And according to work you have to become a lamb, and other Iranians eat you. That's all. This is designation. They do not understand, or they are not educated that what he will get by these designations. Big, big movement is going on on this designation platform. In our country, Mahatma Gandhi, he supposed to be a great personality, but what is his teaching? He remained in designation, that's all. "Feel like Indian and drive away the English." By one designation, you drive away another designation. This is going on. And he took Bhagavad*-gītā and never said: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." This is going on. Karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa sakale viṣera bandha (Prema-bhakti-candrikā). This is karma-kāṇḍa . Designation means this. And higher than this karma-kāṇḍa , the mental speculators, jñāna-kāṇḍa . So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, both of them viṣera bandha , pot of poison. If you waste your time in this way, then they will get another body, that's all. Nana yoni bhraman kare kadārya bhakṣana kare, tara janma adha pate yaya . These are simple words, but it contains very, very grave meaning from the Vaiṣṇava ācārya . Where is Ātreya Ṛṣi? Jñānagamya: Ātreya Ṛṣi? I'll get him. *Pradyumna: If we take that analogy, karma*-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa , then . . . *Prabhupāda: Everything is going on, karma*-kāṇḍa . Whole world acting fruitive activities: "Let me work and get the result." This is karma-kāṇḍa . Pradyumna: And it is like poison. From poison we suffer and die. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is . . . die means spiritual death. No spiritual idea. Otherwise, we have no death, nitya . But spiritual death is there. (Ātreya Ṛṣi enters, offers obeisances) So your friends are satisfied or not? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They said they were. Prabhupāda: This is scientific truth. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I have noticed that people who are materially contaminated, when they hear spiritual preaching, they can always look at it from material point of view. For example, when you speak of designation, one boy was asking how come we are also having shaved heads and dressing like devotees. In other words, the emphasis on their minds is more on what is everybody else thinking, while the emphasis in your teaching is how you yourself can become free, not what everybody else is thinking. While our shaving of our head and dressing as devotee is a means to become free from all designation, he may be seeing other designations. Prabhupāda: No, it does not depend on shaving head. But this is in the process. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is in the process. *Prabhupāda: Yes. By shaving . . . there are so many shaven*-headed. Does it means that he's in the process? Just like a doctor carries one stethoscope. But if somebody thinks, "Let me carry a stethoscope, I'll become a doctor." (break) But for a doctor the stethoscope is required. But if a false man takes a stethoscope and declares himself a doctor, medical man, then he is cheating. (pause) Prabhupāda: You get here puffed rice? No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Get? Ātreya Ṛṣi: We . . . let me ask. We may have little bit. Prabhupāda: No, here they prepare puffed rice? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. From India or from America. We don't have. Prabhupāda: You get imported. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Would you like me to ask? Prabhupāda: Yes, few grains. Hari-śauri: We have some flat rice with us, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We brought some flat rice, cheera . Prabhupāda: No, don't . . . (indistinct) . . . I shall not take it. Jñānagamya: Did he see that in the store now? I'm asking if he saw it in the store. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, it is not here, we got it. Prabhupāda: What is that? No. Don't take trouble. I'll not take. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No trouble. Jñānagamya: I have some friends in American commissary, friends like that. They could possibly get it. I'll call them. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You get some tomorrow. Can I see if we can fix you some, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Puffed rice? No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What would you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, doesn't matter. *Nava*-yauvana: Someone has given us some from India. Prabhupāda: Puffed rice? *Nava*-yauvana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Bring it, let me see. (pause) Prabhupāda: I think today is cooler, so I don't require to lie down outside. Hari-śauri: Sleep inside? Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Sleep inside? Pradyumna: It's coming to pūrṇimā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Moon is cooling effect. Desert will make a cooling effect. (laughter) Just see. At least I shall not believe that this is desert and rock. I am not so fool. The desert and rock is giving so nice brilliant shining, everyone is feeling comfortable. Just see. We have to believe it. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because Kṛṣṇa is missing. They don't accept Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, they should have at least common sense. But they have no common sense. Kṛṣṇa is far away from here, for these rascals, but at least they should have common sense. But that also they have not. Even they have not common sense. Pradyumna: Children are always asking . . . it is a folk thing that children ask, "What is the moon made of? Mother, father, what is the moon made of?" Prabhupāda: They ask? Pradyumna: Generally, when they young, "What is the moon?" "What is the moon made of?" So they used to answer, "It's made of green cheese." (laughter) *Prabhupāda: You believe that it is desert and rock and giving so nice shining, cooling effect? In Vedic literature there is always comparison, analogy, with moon, moon*-faced, candra-mukhi . There are so many. Best thing is compared with the moon. We have named Māyāpur-candra. Māyāpur-candrodaya Mandira. Do you mean that a desert is coming out from Māyāpur? (pause) Prabhupāda: You have got rock candy? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Give me little. Jñānagamya: Prabhupāda, your temples are the real spaceships. We can go to the other planets and to Kṛṣṇaloka from your temples. Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore I've given you *Easy Journey to Other Planets* . (devotee brings in puffed rice) It is from India? *Nava*-yauvana: It is from India. Prabhupāda: Fresh. Atreya Ṛṣi: Would you like it fried a little? Prabhupāda: Little make it hot. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hot. We can little heat it. Prabhupāda: That's all. After heating, put little ghee, very little, and mix it with black pepper and salt. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We mix it or you mix it? Prabhupāda: I can mix. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We'll bring it separately. Prabhupāda: But this is good. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And also we can bring some fruit? Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) . . . keep it there. So this is nice. Hari-śauri: Shall I put some on this lid, or . . .? Prabhupāda: Hmm. (background discussion as devotees arrange things) Some Indian gentleman has given? Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is Mrs. Patel. We asked. Prabhupāda: She has prepared or . . .? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, from India. Prabhupāda: Persian rice is famous. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. It is prepared in a different way. It is prepared differently. Prabhupāda: Persian rice? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, we prepare it also differently. Prabhupāda: How? Ātreya Ṛṣi: We first boil it and then take the water out and then steam it, steam it with ghee . Prabhupāda: So first of all you boil? Ātreya Ṛṣi: And take the water out. Prabhupāda: Paddy? Paddy? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, boil for two three minutes and then steam. Prabhupāda: Rice? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes then steam. And it makes very long, individual . . . Prabhupāda: And then you dry? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. We eat it like that. Prabhupāda: For two, three days? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. Pradyumna: No. They eat it immediately after cooking. Prabhupāda: Oh. Pradyumna: Was that the rice she made? She prepared it that way last night? This afternoon? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. This rice isn't even Persian; it's American rice. Persian rice is too expensive, even in Persia. (indistinct background conversation) (break) Prabhupāda: They make very nice puffed rice in Bengal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: How do they make it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Not difficult. The paddy, they are boiled. And then again baked in the sunshine. Again boil, then again baked in the sunshine. Then the skin is taken out by that ḍheṅki , what is called? That rice . . . Pradyumna: Thresher? *Prabhupāda: That is that ḍheṅki , husking machine, the skin is taken away. Then mixed with salt and make it heated. Then when it is prepared, then they heat sand, and in that heated sand they put the rice, and immediately putt*-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt . Like that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They also make it like that in America? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Ātreya Ṛṣi: In America they probably have a short*-cut process. Prabhupāda: Maybe. What method? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Industrial. Machines. (laughs) Pradyumna: We used to have for breakfast. (end) Conversation A -- August 9, 1976, Tehran Prabhupāda: If you find out sand and rocks, you must also . . . (indistinct) . . . there was water. And from water, vegetation comes. From vegetation, other life comes. What we speak, we don't speak unscientifically. It is scientific. How this rascal says all of a sudden in the sky there is rock? Where from the rock came? Hari-śauri: Well, they say originally from gas. Prabhupāda: Gas? Hari-śauri: Gas. Prabhupāda: So gas . . . without water, there cannot be gas. Hari-śauri: Gas, and then it liquifies and then it solidifies. Prabhupāda: Liquid means water. So as soon as there is water, there is vegetation. You'll find everywhere. Water dries up, vegetable comes. Parivrājakācārya: Today they are exploring Mars, and they are saying that they're finding water on Mars. *Prabhupāda: Water's there. Everything must be there. Pañca*-bhūta, mahā-bhūta. Ether, then fire, then water, then land. Everything is described in the Bhāgavatam . They cannot speak nonsense. They can speak nonsense through the other literatures, but we cannot speak. Without water, how there is possibility of sand? Sand means it is salt. Parivrājakācārya: If you go out here, there is a big desert. Prabhupāda: That means there was water. Parivrājakācārya: Yes, and under the desert always. I took a trip a few weeks ago, all over Iran, through the deserts, to villages, and always just forty feet, forty meters under the desert, lots of water. They would bring the water up and then there would be green, they would grow vegetables. So even here there's water. Prabhupāda: The water, sea, as it becomes solidified, the outer surface, by sunshine they become, it is called sodium silicate. Salt is sodium chloride. So from sodium chloride, the sodium silicate. So cover of the sea they can solidify by the sodium silicate. But underneath there is water. Just like our this skin, bone, coming from where? We are eating liquid and . . . or some vegetables or some whatever, they are becoming liquidified. And first transformation is blood. Blood is liquid, and from blood everything is coming. The muscle is coming, the bone is coming. The more the liquid portion becomes solidified by air, gas, then these things coming. The formation of this body beginning the liquid semina, liquid ovum, mix together. From liquid. Then they form pea like solid thing, from that liquid. And then the body forms. Where from the solid body forms? The man injects liquid. Liquid inject, everything is coming. So where from the solid body comes? By chemical composition the body forms, from liquid to solid. So as soon as you see some solid thing, you must know that it has come from liquid. Parivrājakācārya: It got its form from liquid. The form, it had to come from liquid somehow. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Yes, liquid. The discharge of semina is liquid. It is not solid. So how this body comes? You cannot bluff that a solid has come all of a sudden. There was liquid, or there is liquid. Hari-śauri: Well, they'll accept that there was liquid. Prabhupāda: Yes, then there must have been vegetable. As soon as there is liquid there is vegetation. Hari-śauri: Their argument is that because there's no atmosphere, then there's no vegetation. *Prabhupāda: Oh, that is . . . that is another bogus. The atmosphere is the same everywhere. Little more. Just like in . . . (break) . . . say in the sun planet there is living entity, that is fire. So what do you mean by atmosphere, if even in fire there is life? Dahati pāvakaḥ . Bhagavad*-gītā . Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ ( BG 2.23). Pāvakaḥ means fire. Does not burn the soul. So where there is fire only, he develops fiery body. Not that by the fire it is finished. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . Where there is gas, air, nainam . . . find out this verse. Acchedyo' yam adāhyo' yam . Hari-śauri: Gītā ? *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. You do not read even. You should have reference immediately. (devotees search for verse) Parivrājakācārya: Even here on the earth, even ice in the South Pole of the earth, they find much life inside the ice. Prabhupāda: Just see. Here inside the ice there are life. Parivrājakācārya: They are very surprised. They said, "How is this happening?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Life is everywhere. This bogus theory there is no life, the atmosphere is different, it is bogus, simply bogus. Because spirit soul is never affected by any material atmosphere. That is the distinction between matter and spirit. It has nothing to do with 19:00 19:01 material atmosphere. They don't have knowledge, they are baffled. And those who have no knowledge, they are accepting. Hari-śauri: "The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind." *Prabhupāda: So where is question of atmosphere influence? Suppose there is rock and sand and always hot weather. That does not mean there cannot be any life. The life is never affected by all these things. Make propaganda about this knowledge. People will understand that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not joking, it is something serious. That boy was saying that these scientist, they know me. What is this boy's name, this boy said about the so*-called astronomer, scientist? Who was this boy? Pradyumna: Who came last night? Hari-śauri: One of our boys, American boy, that tall boy. Parivrājakācārya: Jñānagamya. Pradyumna: Here in this temple? Hari-śauri: Yes. Jñānagamya. He used to work with some science research as well. (indistinct comments about Jñānagamya) Parivrājakācārya: The scientists are like all materialists. They think if we have not seen it . . . Prabhupāda: (coughing heavily) You have to see from the book. Seeing from the book is real seeing. What you can see with these blunt eyes? I have seen in these navigators. They see in the different plans and books, and they direct their ship or airplane accordingly. How can he see where we are going? Hari-śauri: Just like they land an aeroplane. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got all plans and direction, and altitude, latitude and everything, which direction is going on in front of the pilot. So everything is there. In what position the plane is there, how high it is and how low it will be, where it is—everything. On that direction they can fly. Otherwise, what they can see with the eyes? Utmost ten miles, and it is running at six hundred miles? What ten miles will do them? So śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. Authoritative literature should be the eyes, not these blunt eyes. What is the value of these eyes? Now here is authority: nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . You should go to the school, colleges, and from Bhagavad-gītā give them real knowledge. The whole world is in darkness, and these rascals are guiding them. (pause) Prabhupāda: You have tasted the barā ? Nim barā ? Pradyumna: This morning. Prabhupāda: Huh? Did you like it? Parivrājakācārya: It tasted very healthy. Prabhupāda: Healthy? Parivrājakācārya: Healthy. Prabhupāda: Healthy? What is that? Parivrājakācārya: It tasted like it was good for me. Hari-śauri: That means it didn't taste very nice, but we accepted it was good. Parivrājakācārya: I know by my intelligence that it is good to keep eating, even though my tongue was saying "Stop." Prabhupāda: No, this neem is good. They say that if you eat at least two leaves of neem daily, you'll never lose your appetite. Appetite will be continuing. Hari-śauri: Who can eat two leaves of neem? (laughing) Prabhupāda: No, if you practice, it is not impossible. Pradyumna: I ate them one time. Remember in Bombay, I thought I had worms? You told me to eat nim? Prabhupāda: Effective? What happened? Pradyumna: Well, I didn't notice anything happened, but it was very, very bitter, so bitter. Prabhupāda: So that worms cured or not? Pradyumna: I don't know. Sometimes I think I have worms. Prabhupāda: You should not eat sweet. Parivrājakācārya: You cannot get neem in Iran. I have never seen a neem tree in Iran. Prabhupāda: No tree, simply desert. Where is tree? All desert. All this Middle East, desert. So they can be allowed to eat meat. Otherwise, how for they'll eat? Everyone must eat something. So if there is no vegetation, if there is no sufficient, they can be allowed. Parivrājakācārya: I visited some of these small villages in the south of Iran, and the tents of nomads who kept sheep, that was their life. They had a tent and they had hundreds of sheep, and they would move the tent every month. They would take the tent, for one month they would live here, and next month they would move. Prabhupāda: Why they're changing? Parivrājakācārya: Because they're desert people. The sheep eat all the little green, and then they have to move on. Pradyumna: Same thing as the Bible. When the sheep eat up all the green in that place, then they have to go to another place with their sheep. In the Bible the same thing. All that Abraham, Joseph . . . Prabhupāda: Bible was produced here, in this desert land. Jerusalem is not far away. Mecca, Medina . . . (indistinct) . . . Arabia. Parivrājakācārya: All they had to eat was the milk of sheep and goats, and sometimes when they would camp near a farm they would have vegetables. Sometimes. And then the meat of the sheep. Prabhupāda: And these dates. In the desert the date tree grows. Sometimes they eat camel also. Is it not? Parivrājakācārya: Yes. But I don't think if they . . . Prabhupāda: They cannot be strictly vegetarian; it is not possible. Parivrājakācārya: It is difficult. Prabhupāda: But even they eat meat, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no harm. Parivrājakācārya: But now they are farming in the desert. The Iranian government has started farms. They are irrigating the land with water, and when they put water on the desert they get all kinds of vegetables and grains very easily. So if they do that then they can become vegetarian, they have no excuse. The excuse of the people is that, "We have to eat meat." Prabhupāda: They can have rains from the sky by chanting. The rain will fall from the sky. Who can check it? (coughs heavily) Kṛṣṇa gives the water from the sky. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). Parivrājakācārya: They say in their books that this area used to be all forest with many, many trees about two to three thousand years ago. It was a very thick forest. But since then it has become desert; the rain has stopped since then. Prabhupāda: Because the yajña stopped. Pradyumna: That Sahara Desert used to be all trees, very fertile. Sahara Desert in Africa, it is the biggest desert in the world. Nothing . . . Prabhupāda: Sahara, Sahara. Pradyumna: Sahara Desert. It used to be very rich thousands of years ago, but then became desert. Hari-śauri: It's supposed to increase its size by ten miles every year. Pradyumna: Desert growth. Formerly, that city Carthage used to be there. Carthage was fighting Rome. Carthage was very rich, all farms. Prabhupāda: Cartharian civilization was very big civilization. The thing is that the more people become sinful, they'll be disturbed by this natural atmosphere. Therefore I'm surprised that moon planet is inhabited by pious inhabitants, how there can be desert? Pradyumna: But does moon planet have something to do with pitṛs ? Does the Pitṛ . . . Pitṛloka is different? Prabhupāda: Pitṛ ? Pradyumna: Pitā, Pitṛ ? Prabhupāda: No, Pitṛloka is different. That is downwards. Hari-śauri: Does that pitṛ , does that refer to the original progenitors? Pradyumna: No, forefathers. Prabhupāda: Latest development they are finding water in Mars? Parivrājakācārya: They find . . . it is very difficult for them, because they are using their eyes and other instruments. They have found places where there were rivers, and they are finding ice and other things. So I don't know the latest developments. It is obvious to them there is life, different kinds of life. Hari-śauri: The way of testing for life . . . Prabhupāda: Why you are spoiling your nails? It may come to a boil, and then you'll understand. It is very dangerous habit. If there is little . . . (indistinct) . . . then it will become a boil. *Pradyumna: Jñānagamya said that on Mars they found something like a crater with a house. Looked like a . . . or a bombed*-out thing. This Jñānagamya was working with a . . . he works with some information service, U.S. Information Service. So he was in charge of designing something here for Fourth of July, some program. So he got this information from this U.S. Information Service which generally . . . sometimes it isn't made public. It's just in their U.S. service. They'd seen some kind of a crater with . . . Parivrājakācārya: Roads in it as well. Pradyumna: Yes, something with roads in it or something, they'd seen Hari-śauri: The way they test for life is they take some soil and they mix certain things with it, and then they wait and see if there is some life development from that. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Hari-śauri: Yes. They mix ammonia and . . . Prabhupāda: Same chemical theory. Why do they not in the end mix something and see if life is coming? They are all rascals, speaking one after another. Hari-śauri: That's their whole thing, that if . . . Prabhupāda: If by mixing something they can bring life, why not in the egg? Hari-śauri: Yes, they can't even do it here, where there's so much life. Prabhupāda: Simply for . . . but you rascals, you cannot understand how they are speaking rascaldom. Hari-śauri: No, I can see now. I've been with you so long I can understand now. Parivrājakācārya: They have sent this one ship to Mars at a cost of one billion dollars. They are making these tests. Hari-śauri: Now they've got a second one going around as well. That's Viking 1 that's on there now, and they have another one, Viking 2, that's designed to orbit. Pradyumna: Vikings were names of pirates. Viking means pirates. Pirate's a thief. Vikings, they used to be thieves. They've named their spaceship Viking. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . main idea going to the other planets? Colonization, or what? Pradyumna: One thing, they say, is security, that America and Russia are fighting. So it was a race to get to the moon because they think that from other planets that they can control conditions on the earth. From another planet they can control weather or they can control different things. Prabhupāda: Just see how bogus. Pradyumna: That is one thing they say, they must get to the moon first, for security. Prabhupāda: That is now failure. Now they'll do it from Mars. Hari-śauri: Not so much from there for security. It's just . . . Parivrājakācārya: Their pride. One country, just like children playing, one can say: "I can fly higher than you," and so "We can go to the moon before you can." For no reason than just to show they can do it. Hari-śauri: It's an excuse to spend money. It's for fun. Prabhupāda: They cannot settle up their misunderstanding here. By going to the moon planet, they'll do it. Hari-śauri: That's one thing that they said they were going to do, actually. They had some Russian astronauts and some American astronauts, and they had them meet in space, and then they joined their spaceships together, and then they had a meal together and did some experiments, and then they left again. So that was very much acclaimed as bringing the two nations closer together. Prabhupāda: We are afraid of these two classes of rascals. "Afraid of" means we don't want their association. It is very dangerous. Pradyumna: You said in the *Bhāgavatam* , just now, that we are afraid of the materialistic men. Prabhupāda: Yes. Personally I feel, I have several times told. For a devotee to live with nondevotees is so obnoxious and troublesome, it is sometimes mentioned, better to remain within a cage surrounded by fire, and still, don't remain with nondevotees. You prefer to live within a cage surrounded by fire. That living is preferable than to live with this nondevotee class. Hari-śauri: A lot of the devotees had that experience living with their parents before they joined the movement. It was so hellish they had to get out. Then they, some way or other, met . . . Prabhupāda: *Bhakta*-sane bās , that is the essential part of progressing. (pause) Prabhupāda: Dayānanda's daughter came, in my lavatory. Hari-śauri: When you were in? Prabhupāda: Yes, I was going . . . Hari-śauri: In? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Generally, this barā are made with paṭola leaves, paṭola leaves mashed and mixed with this dahī . Hari-śauri: Is that just as healthy as neem leaves? Paṭola leaves? Just the same. Prabhupāda: It is better. (break) . . . the influence of the moon planet, the vegetation grows. Do they accept, the modern botanists, influence of moon planet? Parivrājakācārya: All the farmers, they . . . Prabhupāda: They do believe? Parivrājakācārya: They believe that. They plant certain seeds according to the moon. Prabhupāda: Just see. *Pradyumna: Even in the West they only plant certain things on the waxing moon, not on the waning moon. On śukla*-pakṣa. Prabhupāda: And moon is vacant. By the influence of moon, other vegetation growing, and it cannot grow itself. Hari-śauri: They admit that the moon rays have some kind of potency. They know that. Prabhupāda: No, it is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* . Pradyumna: In the Jyotiṣa it has . . . it controls liquids. And I think even in hospitals here, near Pūrṇimā, where some of the times they don't like to do the operations because there will be more . . . the blood will run more. Something, they have some . . . someone had told me. The tides are also going according to the moon. The rivers are running according to the moon. In the Ganges, one time we went, swimming in Calcutta . . . Prabhupāda: The ebb tide, flow tide, according to the moon. Pradyumna: Something like that. One day the Ganges was very peaceful, and then we went again and it was rushing. If you went in you would just be carried away. You could only . . . (break) Prabhupāda: You can do it here. (referring to massage) Hari-śauri: You don't want to go outside today? Prabhupāda: Sunshine is bright. (end) Conversation A -- August 10, 1976, Tehran *Nava*-yauvana: Many people, when they see the devotees, they are confused, and they think that the devotees are engaged in some kind of ritualistic activity, that the chanting and practices of devotees are ritualistic, and they compare it to their own rituals and they don't see any distinction. So they see it as sectarian. Prabhupāda: What they want? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Some of them are not sincere, so they simply want to find fault. But those who are sincere can be encouraged to . . . *Nava*-yauvana: They are all wanting material things. Like in Bhagavad-gītā , there is the verse, traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ ( BG 2.45). Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna to rise above the scriptures, the flowery words of the Vedas . *Prabhupāda: Well, they are not concerned with the Bhagavad*-gītā . You cannot quote from Bhagavad-gītā to instruct these rascals. You have to talk with them with common sense. Their charge is . . . what is their charge? That you are engaged in ritualistic ceremonies? *Nava*-yauvana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what they want us to do? If you don't want me to do this, then you must say what you want me to do. Is it not right? Suppose I am chanting. If you don't want me to chant, then what do you want me to do, the next question will be. Jñānagamya: They want us to engage in sense gratification like they are engaged. That is what they want. Prabhupāda: Want . . . we want that, if you want me to do like you, then I want you to do like me. If you want me to accept your proposal, why you'll not accept my proposal? Jñānagamya: Because if I think that sense gratification is better, then I want . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. You think sense gratification is better, I think sense gratification is bad. Jñānagamya: How can we tell the difference? How can we know which is better? Prabhupāda: No, there is difference. Why you want me to do like you? Then I shall want you to do like me. Jñānagamya: I say it because I want you to enjoy sense gratification. Prabhupāda: No, I am not going to accept you. Because you are not accepting my principles, so why shall I accept your principles? Jñānagamya: But your principle is austere, it's not nice. Prabhupāda: So that you say. Jñānagamya: That's what they say. Prabhupāda: They say, but we say you are bad, that you are enjoying simply sense gratification. Jñānagamya: They say what is wrong? Prabhupāda: No, what is wrong to us? It is your judgment that we are wrong. So my judgment you are wrong. Who will decide who is right? Eh? Ātreya Ṛṣi? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: If you judge me I am wrong, I am judging you are wrong. So if you don't want me to do like this, I also don't want you. Then where is the decision? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Actually, these people mentally understand that sense gratification is wrong, but they are so polluted that they are on the . . . Prabhupāda: No, for argument's sake. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . mental platform. Prabhupāda: If you want me to do like you, I also want you to do like me. You cannot find fault with me by saying that I am not acting like you, sense gratification. If you are acting in your way, I am acting in my way. Jñānagamya: It's relative on that platform. Prabhupāda: But if you want philosophy, the aim of life, the destination of life, then we can talk, what is the destination of life, what is required. If you criticize me, then I can criticize you also. Jñānagamya: Then we must take it to the absolute platform in order to actually have a sincere argument, to make a sincere decision. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no end of such things. Therefore unless one accepts a person guru , there is no need of talking. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Unless one accepts somebody as guru , the instruction will not be fruitful. Just like Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa as guru . So long he was talking as friend, it was not effective. Arjuna therefore decided . . . find out that verse, kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ . Harikeśa: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me." Prabhupāda: This is the position. Unless one feels like that and asks somebody, a superior, accepts him as guru , there is no use talking. It will not be useful. Jñānagamya: That's what you say in the purport. Prabhupāda: This is the position. If the injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12), if anyone is interested to know about the transcendental subject matter, he must approach a guru . And unless one approaches a guru , he cannot understand. And if by force I become guru , he may not be interested. This is the position. But still, for a preacher, he has to do something against all odds. That is preaching. You cannot expect favorable position. Your question was that we go and they say like this, but you cannot expect that wherever you are going you'll find favorable situation to talk. That you must understand. But you'll have to preach; you have to create favorable situation. That is your duty. You cannot expect, if they are not prepared to take good instruction. Where is that fan? Hari-śauri: He's bringing it. *Prabhupāda: You cannot expect favorable situation. It is not possible. When I came in America, I never expected any favorable situation. I wrote that poetry in disappointment that, "Who will accept this?" That is the position. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, gradually it will become a favorable situation, but don't expect any favorable situation. You have to handle unfavorable situation and make favorable situation to preach. That is preaching. Any business. (to devotee fanning) Just on the head. Just see, there is flies. So Nityānanda Prabhu, He went to preach to Jagāi*-Mādhāi. There was no favorable situation. They were drunkards. They caused injury on the body of Nityānanda Prabhu. So this is preaching with only unfavorable situation. You cannot expect favorable situation. And still you have to preach. That is preaching. They will speak like madman, so many things. They are mad, after all. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). They have no sense. All materialistic persons are madmen. Still, by the order of superior, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we have to do this preaching work. Actually, the American boys are fighting against so many unfavorable situations. They are sometimes beaten in the airport, you know that? Still they are preaching. That is preaching. That is preaching. "The unfavorable situation, so let me give it up," that is not preaching. Yes, we must know that there is unfavorable situation, still I have to do. That depends on your brain, how to tackle. You cannot expect favorable situation. Jñānagamya: Is it good to publicize these situations, Prabhupāda, that we are encountering so much difficulty? Is it good to publicize that, in a film, say? Prabhupāda: Film? Jñānagamya: In a film can we talk about these things that we . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't talk of film. You are very much in favor of film. You'd better stop that idea. Jñānagamya: It is very potent, though, for preaching. No? Prabhupāda: Some of them may be preaching. In documentary. What favorable film will do? We can show our activities; that film may be for our advertisement. Otherwise, in which way by showing film you'll make . . . (indistinct) . . .? There are so many films. They see, they see. Jñānagamya: Devotees are interested. Prabhupāda: Devotees are devotees. If you want to preach to the public, what impression they'll have? Some of our documentary film, just like we are feeding the poor, or we are working, making such things, that may be favorable. Say for we're doing something in America, the Indians may appreciate, or we are doing something in India. That's all right. There is little effect, of course, but not very much. Jñānagamya: But if we make a film to go in the movie houses all over the world, the big movie houses, not just for little schools or little groups, not just for the temple. Prabhupāda: What kind of film? Jñānagamya: A film that would show activities of devotees. And have some story . . . Prabhupāda: But you said they do not like it. Jñānagamya: No, I never said they do not like it. Prabhupāda: You said that sense gratification. How they'll appreciate? Jñānagamya: They will appreciate. It is something new, it is very different, it is very beautiful and attractive. Prabhupāda: Of course, I cannot understand. But you . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the favorable condition of film? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jñānagamya Prabhu is interested in making a very big film. Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter? Ātreya Ṛṣi: The subject matter is devotees in Kṛṣṇa consciousness: how they learn, how they study, how they go on saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: They are seeing already. Jñānagamya: They are seeing in real life, but so many people, they do not know of devotees, and films would go to every little town and village. And there would be chanting in the film, and there would be interest in what the devotees are doing. Prabhupāda: But their opinion is not in favor, as you said. Jñānagamya: (laughs) But the film can change the opinion. Many times . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . how they can change? Jñānagamya: Great books have done this. Uncle Tom's Cabin started a whole war against slavery in the United States. Books and films are very potent. They can make public opinion. Prabhupāda: Books are different thing. We are publishing. Jñānagamya: In America the Negro situation was very bad, and they made many films showing heroic Negroes, and now the situation is much better. The people are not so much agitated by seeing Negroes. They think, "Oh, now a Negro has some good qualities." Because of these films they have come to appreciate. So like that, if a devotee is a hero they will also appreciate. Prabhupāda: You judge. I don't appreciate. I don't think the Negro question is solved. Jñānagamya: No, it's not, but it is making steps to that end. Prabhupāda: The whites, they do not like the Negroes still. Wherever there are Negroes, in that quarter the whites do not go in. Is it not? They do not go. Although they have been given equal right, but at heart the whites, they do not like it. Is there any improvement? I don't think. So officially, "Yes, yes, you are good, I am good." *Nava*-yauvana: Because people are still on the bodily conception of life, so they are threatened. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real disease. So long one is situated in the bodily concept of life, he is animal. First of all, you have to educate them. That is the difficulty. Jñānagamya: But we are not Negroes. We are actually devotees, and we are very attractive, and we have all good qualities. And people do not have to be afraid to come into our section of town; we will not kill them. That is why they are afraid of the Negroes. So we actually have good things to offer. Prabhupāda: That is by your behavior, not by showing the film. Ātreya Ṛṣi: One of the points, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you're making, if I understand correctly, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is like gold, like diamond. If someone is sincere, they will come. When they are selling cigarettes or Negroes or cars, they make films. But with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have the books, which are paramparā . And we have ourselves as example. If we can be paramparā and we can be good example . . . Prabhupāda: That is my opinion, that instead of spending so much money for films, if you spend some money for propagation of book distribution . . . any advertisement is good, it never goes in vain, but the film advertisement is very expensive. Very, very expensive. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya . It is very true. Very expensive and very much endeavor. Prabhupāda: Advertisement never goes in vain, that's a fact. But if it is too much expensive, it touches our financial position. Hari-śauri: And then there's no certainty that it will be a success anyway. Jñānagamya: There is a method. There is a method . . . *Prabhupāda: Suppose there is little success, but in comparison to the money expended, that success is little. Just like I, in the beginning, I advertised my books in the Times of New York Times. They charged me sixty*-three dollars, a small space. So there was inquiry, not order. Three inquiries, not even order. I have got this experience. For me, at that time, sixty-three dollars were too much. So I did not get any response. That is my practical experience. I got three inquiries, not even order. But the Times, New York Times , they have got millions of customers and millions of readers, but I got three inquiries only. Ātreya Ṛṣi: To find those few potential devotees that are in . . . let us assume, in New York, big city, there were a few potential devotees, and materially speaking, it may be very difficult to find them. But when the devotee is sincere, Kṛṣṇa will give opportunity that those people will be found, even if they are one in that big city. Kṛṣṇa will arrange that they will find a pure devotee if they are sincere. So no material advertising will accomplish the task. Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that it is only for the fortunate persons. But we must present. Only the fortunate will come forward. We cannot expect that everyone will come. That is not possible. Jñānagamya: But you said to make everyone fortunate. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is by your preaching. That we have to do. We are doing that. That I have given the example, Nityānanda Prabhu. He faced rebellion, and by His power converted the Jagāi*-Mādhāi, by chanting. They injured, Jagāi-Mādhāi injured, and Nityānanda Prabhu said: "Never mind you have injured Me, please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not advertisement, that is personal behavior. Jñānagamya: In Dallas where I was there's a town next door, there are many rich Baptists, Fort Worth. They have big studio for producing many different films, television shows about Christian . . . Prabhupāda: These Christian people, they have got money, and still the churches are being closed. What is the effect? Jñānagamya: They have no potency to their message. It's not the medium, it's their message. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, by their advertisement, the effect is the churches are being closed. Eh? Is it not? Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is correct. Jñānagamya: But there is also a movement in America, in Christianity, but they do not want to go to church. They want to be Christians, but not go to church. Prabhupāda: That means it has no effect. (pause) Prabhupāda: Now talk about something substantial. Yesterday we were talking about the proprietorship of God. So if people are interested to talk like gentlemen, how they can refute the proprietorship of God of everything? Talk on this point. Jñānagamya: They say God has given us everything for our pleasure, that God is not worried about whether He owns it or not, He simply wants to give to us. Prabhupāda: That is your idea. But if I am proprietor of something, I must keep my right. It is not that . . . suppose I am proprietor of this house, and there is a nice garden. I allow my friends and relatives or family to use it. But when they misuse it, shall I remain silent? If I am proprietor, when things are being misused, shall I remain silent? When you misuse it and if I chastise you, how you can say that, "You have given to us. Whatever we like we can do. Why you are protesting?" Can they say like that? Jñānagamya: No. Prabhupāda: You say that God has given us, so therefore we can do. There is no need of God. That is your argument, is it not? What that argument? *Nava*-yauvana: God has given all these things. Prabhupāda: God has given us all these things, but does it mean that if you misuse it and God will see only silently? Does it mean that? *Nava*-yauvana: No. Prabhupāda: Then how you can say that you can do it as you like? God has given us? Jñānagamya: They don't understand how God chastises when they misuse. They don't understand karma . Prabhupāda: That means shameless. They are being chastised at every step, and they don't think it is chastisement. They are shameless fools. *Nava*-yauvana: And also they blame God. They say God is injust. Then they say God is injust. Prabhupāda: And when they are chastised, then God is injust. This is their position. You cannot deny the proprietorship of God. That is not possible. If you misuse it, then you'll be chastised. You'll be chastised. Even in that park, the park is owned by the government. You cannot pluck any flower without the permission. You can use it. You can go there and sit there, enjoy it, but if it is prohibited that nobody can pluck flower, if you do it, then it is criminal. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God, so you can utilize it, God's favor, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā , according to His instruction. Suppose there are many persons coming in the park. You cannot prohibit anyone to come into the park. As you have entered, "Yes." But you have made laws like that. What is this immigration? Artificial prohibition. Everything is God's property. Anyone can go anywhere. Why you have made this immigration department, "Don't come here"? Jñānagamya: They say it is to protect the people who are here. Prabhupāda: Then why you came here? The Americans, why they went to America and killed the Indians? And now they have become proprietor, "Don't come here." Jñānagamya: They allow some, and then they differentiate, they try to see who is going to be a . . . Prabhupāda: That means you are violating the laws of God. Every place is God's place, so you're all God's sons. You can go anywhere. Unless I do something, harm you, you cannot check me. In the airport, everyone is checked. That means everyone is dishonest. Nowadays everyone is checked. So in the airport, the passengers are . . . at least it is to be supposed they are paying so much, the airport authorities accept you as you are dishonest, checking, be checked. This is the effect of your education: everyone is dishonest. (lamb bleating in background) Why the lamb is crying? Eh? The lamb? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they have lamb. Prabhupāda: So they do not give the lamb to eat something? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They . . . I don't know. Maybe they took the mother away or something. Prabhupāda: No, I hear this sound always somewhere. No, they keep the lambs for killing, eh? But before killing, do they not supply any food? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They're very cruel. Prabhupāda: They starve? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They don't have any human qualification. Prabhupāda: Human qualification there is not, otherwise how they are killing? Killing means they have no human qualification. Animal qualification. "I want you to eat," huh? You know that Aesop's Fable story? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Which story? Prabhupāda: There was a lake. So one small lamb was drinking water on the other side, and this side another tiger. So the tiger challenged that, "Why you are muddying the water." So he said, "Sir, I am here, long away. I am not muddying." So anyway, he picked up some quarrel and killed him. So the idea was to kill him, but he picked up some . . . find out some fault. So anyone finding out. This man who wants to kill somebody else, he's not man, he's animal. "Give the dog a bad name and hang it." That English proverb? You try to discuss on this point, how people can refuse the proprietorship of God. That is a very good point for preaching. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Everything belongs to God. That's a fact. (pause) Prabhupāda: (to Hari-śauri) Sleeping? Meditating? Either sleeping or meditating, what is the real fact? Meditating or sleeping? Hari-śauri: I'm not feeling sleepy, anyway. Prabhupāda: Meditating. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hari-śauri Prabhu works very hard, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He's a very first class servant. Prabhupāda: Yes. ( japa ) Dayānanda: Prabhupāda, they say that the problem is that, the problem of the world is that humanity should be one, everyone should think of things as belonging to humanity, and that religion and different governments have made humanity sectarian and divided up, and people think in terms of . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. We are not such kind of religionist. We say that everything belongs to God and everyone is son of God. We don't say like that. Dayānanda: But they say: "We don't believe in God, we believe in humanity." Prabhupāda: What is the difference? Dayānanda: The difference is that humanity is tangible, it's something we can understand, but God we cannot understand. Prabhupāda: So we are also tangible, but we are more advanced. How you can . . . wherefrom the humanity came, the next question will be. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Wherefrom the human being came? Hmm? (about fanning) Do little. Hari-śauri: Just a little? Prabhupāda: Yes, not little; so that the flies may not come. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Stronger, stronger. Dayānanda: But they say we don't care about where humanity came, it's just that we are here and we have to deal practically with this worldly situation. Prabhupāda: What you are doing practically? You are fighting only. Every ten years after you are fighting. What you have done? Dayānanda: The fighting, they say, comes because humanity is divided into sectarian groups. Prabhupāda: That is your . . . you have done it. You are also one of the members of the . . . how you can check it? It is your fault. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They want brotherhood amongst men. There is no way . . . Prabhupāda: But without father. Brotherhood without father. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Impractical. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? You don't accept father, where is the question of brotherhood? If there is father, and we are sons, we are brothers. If there is no father, then where is the question of brotherhood? Hari-śauri: Even the Communists are fighting amongst themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you accept the father, where is the question of brother? Artificial brotherhood. *Nava*-yauvana: Just look at the United Nations, how they are brothers. Prabhupāda: You think they're united? *Nava*-yauvana: No, they . . . Prabhupāda: They are all dogs barking, that's all. I said in the public. Some dogs are brought together, and they are barking. That's all. Where is the unity? That is the fact. If you bring some dogs of this quarter and ask them, "Please live peacefully," will they do that? Why they cannot do it? You bring some dogs, neighborhood, and ask them, "Don't bark. Live together peacefully." Will they be able to do that? What do you think? Dayānanda: No, it is their nature. *Prabhupāda: So if you keep them dog there cannot be any peace. You make them human being actually, then there will be peace. So they are keeping them as dogs. So they will go on barking. That's all. All these members of the United Nations, everyone is thinking in the bodily concept, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Chinese." So how there will be unity? There cannot be. That is we are proposing, that don't think in the bodily concept of life. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati (BG 18.54): that we are teaching. But they are thinking they have gone to the United Nation, but they are keeping themselves as dogs. There cannot be any peace. They must go on barking against one another. That's all. *Nava*-yauvana: They are thinking that they have to protect their so-called interest. Prabhupāda: So the dog is also thinking. From three miles he begins to bark, "Why you are coming here? Don't come. I am protecting my interest." That mentality is there in the dog; so how you are greater than the dog? *Nava*-yauvana: But the devotee, he is thinking that the proprietor is protecting his interest. Prabhupāda: Anyway, that kind of interest is felt by the dog. It is not very astonishing thing. In that mentality you cannot bring in unity. That is not possible. Dayānanda: But they accept that there is some good quality in humanity. They say that that is inherent in humanity, that we need to worship . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that good quality is God consciousness. So unless humanity comes to the position of God consciousness, unless he thinks that everything belongs to God, there is no question of humanity. That is "doganity," doggish mentality. Humanity means that he understands that "Everything belongs to God. I am servant of God." That is humanity. Otherwise, there is no question of humanity. If you think like dog, where is humanity? Dayānanda: They think that everything belongs to humanity as a group. Prabhupāda: But that is not practical. Everything belonging to the humanity, then why you are making divisions of nations? Dayānanda: That's what they say, that that is the problem, the divisions of nations. *Prabhupāda: And the problem will continue, because you are taking account a section of living entity. You, because you have no idea of dog and other animals, what they are, they are also sons of God. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Find out. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ . Unless you come to this understanding, there is no question of humanity. This is the humanity understanding. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ . Harikeśa: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." *Prabhupāda: That's all. You are trying to unify the so*-called human beings, but you are keeping the poor animals for cutting their throat. This is your humanity. Because these poor animals cannot protest, so you are strong. And this is your humanity—you cut their throat and eat. But that is not humanity. Humanity is here mentioned: God is the seed-giving father all living entities. That is the fact. That is humanity. They do not know what is meaning by humanity. Here is the explanation, humanity. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Unless you come to that stage, there is no question of humanity. Artificially, you manufacture something and you think humanity. According to your convenience, "Let us combine together and exploit other living entities for our benefit." That is not humanity. They do not know what is humanity. Here is the explanation. How humanity can be established unless there is the understanding of the supreme father, how there is question of . . . how this question of brotherhood can come in? Here Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the seed-giving father." So you try to understand this, then humanity. You cannot manufacture some ideas of humanity, imperfect, because you are imperfect. Here is perfect idea. Dayānanda: So how can we be convinced that this is perfect or that it's practical? Because both ideas seem to us to be theoretical. This idea of humanity as . . . *Prabhupāda: Theoretical? How it is theoretical? It is practical. You have no intelligence. Your . . . you say this is also theoretical. Did you not say? I say it is practical. It is practical. From that verse, if you have got brain, you study, you'll see that it is practical if you are intelligent. But if you are dull, then you'll not understand. How it is practical? Here Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the seed-giving father." So do you think it is theoretical? Do you think? Dayānanda: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I don't . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, for argument's sake. Dayānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Unless there is a seed*-giving father, how it is possible of a child simply by the mother? Is there any practical example? If one girl has given birth to a child, do you think the child is born without father? Eh? Is it possible? Dayānanda: No. *Prabhupāda: Therefore when Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the seed*-giving father," what is the wrong there? No living entity can take birth without being seed-given by the father. Everywhere you see that without seed-giving father how a child can take birth? Dayānanda: But how can we accept that situation? Perhaps the creation is a special circumstance? Prabhupāda: No, no. No special. "Perhaps," this is impractical. Why do you say "perhaps"? That is nonsense. As soon as you say "perhaps," then you are rascal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You'll have to show a practical example. *Prabhupāda: Yes, when you talking of practical things and you bring argument, "perhaps," then you are rascal, immediately. Give practical example, no "perhaps," "maybe." No. That argument will not do. These rascals are giving that argument, "perhaps," "maybe." That is not argument. Be practical when you talk of practical things. Practically you do not see that without father there is any child born. No. Either in the animals or in the human beings or in the birds—everywhere, seed*-giving father is there. Hari-śauri: Freud's idea . . . Freud admitted that, that we are all like children, but his philosophy was that the children have to grow up and go out and look after themselves. They can't remain dependent on the father forever, so they have to grow up and face the world. Prabhupāda: That is another rascal. Because everyone, every living entity is dependent on the father's arrangement. God is the supreme father. He was a Christian or not, Freud? Hari-śauri: I don't know what he was. Prabhupāda: What he was? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He was mainly Freudian. He believed in himself. Hari-śauri: He had his own philosophy. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He was Christian, yes . . . Prabhupāda: Christian. So why the Christian go and . . . go to the father, "Give us our daily bread"? That means that you are dependent on father. How you can say independent? Hari-śauri: But that's the point, that we have to grow up and become dependent on our own work. Prabhupāda: No. The Vedic injunction is eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God means He's supplying the necessities of all His sons. That is God. And that is practical. You are dependent. The animals, they are dependent on grass. So wherefrom the grass is coming? Why that land is deserted and this land is green place? Can you change it? Why you don't change the desert to be green? So if you think that, "I'm living on animal. I don't care for grass," but the animal depending on grass, and the grass is depending on God's mercy. So how you can say you are not dependent on God? You are dependent. But because you are a rascal fraud, you want to cheat and become a Freud, that's all. You are a great fraud, therefore you're talking like that. You are dependent on God in every step. You cannot be independent. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra . Find out this verse. That is fraud. He's thinking independently. He's not independent. Harikeśa: "The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities which are in actuality carried out by nature." *Prabhupāda: So how we are independent? Did Mr. Freud not die? When prakṛti , nature, kicked on his face, he immediately died. So how he's independent? These rascals have created all troubles. The so*-called rascal philosophers, scientists, politicians, they have created all troubles. He's completely dependent on nature, on the laws of nature, and still he says: "I am independent. I have grown up." What you have grown up? You have grown up as a great fool, that's all. You have not grown up to be intelligent. You have grown up a great rascal, that's all. So refute them in this way, then you'll be preacher. So what is your argument about humanity? Dayānanda: Well, if God is, as you say . . . Prabhupāda: God is the father. Dayānanda: If God is meant to be propitiated, then why is it that we have so many things for our enjoyment? You say that everything is for God's enjoyment. *Prabhupāda: Yes, God has given you enjoyment, but you cannot enjoy yourself, alone. There are other sons, they will also enjoy. If you interfere with other sons, then you'll be punished. God's son is the lamb, and you let him enjoy, you also enjoy. But if you interfere with his right, then you'll be punished. That is God's law. Sarva*-yoniṣu , God is not only your father, he's father of the lamb also. So if by your brute force you want to kill the poor lamb, then you'll be punished. This is natural. You have got your food; you produce your foodgrain and you eat. Why should you eat another animal? God says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), you must eat to become strong. But that does not mean you'll eat another brother. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1): whatever He has designated, you eat like that. You are human being, you can produce food. You grow foodstuffs, rice, wheat, fruit, flowers, vegetables. That is allowed. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . You produce anna; why should you kill an animal? And offer it to Kṛṣṇa, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). He never says that, "You give Me an animal." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam . So you produce patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam , and offer to Kṛṣṇa, and then take. Dayānanda: In our experience we have no understanding how this can be practical, because we think that meat is good for our strength. How can we be strong? Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are not human being; you are animal. If you cannot produce your food . . . uncivilized animals, they cannot produce their food. But you are given the chance of becoming human being. If you cannot produce your food, if you do not know how to cook food, how to offer it, then you are not human being; you are animal. When the uncivilized man in the jungle, they did not know how to produce food, they used to kill animals. So if you want to remain in the same uncivilized status of life, then where you are human being? You have got greater intelligence. You produce your food. Why should you kill animal like the uncivilized jungle men? Your action is just like jungle man, and you are claiming to be civilized man. *Nava*-yauvana: Because they are thinking that they are the proprietor. Prabhupāda: That is their folly. They are not proprietor. They are not proprietor. That is already discussed. Proprietor is the Supreme Lord; you are not proprietor. That is another point. Falsely you are claiming proprietor. How you are proprietor? Everyone can claim proprietor, and that is going on. Everyone is claiming proprietor and they are fighting. That is going on. And if you accept God is proprietor and we are dependent on Him, then there is no fight. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā . This īśa, Īśopanisad verse is perfectly describing, tena tyaktena : you are not proprietor. You accept things what the proprietor has given you, allotted for you. You are not proprietor. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā . Do not encroach upon others. Then how you become proprietor? We are falsely claiming proprietorship; we are encroaching upon others' independence. This is our business. How there can be peace? It is not possible. This property is walled, that property is walled. You cannot encroach on the other side of the wall. Then it is criminal, trespassing. The government's duty is to see that nobody's encroaching on others. Similarly, God's duty is that, that everyone is God's son, you don't encroach upon other son's right, then you'll be punished. You have got right to live and the lamb has got right to live. Why should you encroach upon his living right? Because you are strong? That is not humanity. The animal is there for benefit. Let him live, and you take the fur. You can use it for your coat. But why should you kill it? The cow is giving milk like mother, why should you kill it? This is humanity, to kill the mother? So in this way we are encroaching the rights of others, and we are becoming subject to be punished by God. This is going on. You may say there is no God, but God is there; you'll be punished. The outlaws, they will say: "We don't care for government." You may say so, but government will take action. You cannot avoid it. This is humanity. Good citizenship means one who knows the laws of the state. That is good citizen. If one does not know the laws of the state, he's a fool; he's not a good citizen. One who knows the law, he keeps right and left, he knows this is the order of the government, cars should be driven on the right side or left side, he is good citizen. One who does not know the law of the state, he's not a good citizen. He's a fool, rascal, what to speak of humanity. Dayānanda: Some people say . . . so we will even say, "I don't care for your rational arguments." Some people say, "I don't care for your . . ." Prabhupāda: Then you are animal, because animal has no rationality. Then you are animal. Better not to talk with you. What is the use of talking with you? You are animal. You have no rationality. Man is rational animal, this is the definition. You have no rationality, therefore you are animal. What is the use of talking with you? Waste time. If you have no rationality, then you are animal. That is the difficulty. People are kept in the status of animal, and they are expected human behavior. How it is possible? It is not possible. So therefore our endeavor is to bring them to the standard of humanity, real humanity. Then there will be peace, prosperity, everything all right. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You don't care for rationality, that means you are animal. Man is rational animal. That is the definition. If you have no rationality . . . dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ . . . this is Vedic injunction. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samāna (Hitopadeśa). Anyone who has no religious principle, he's animal. Therefore you'll find in human society, it doesn't matter whether it is Iran or India or Europe, there is some religion. Because without religion they are animals. Animal has no religion. The animal is . . . dog is dog. It is not a Christian dog or a Hindu dog. Hindu, Christian comes when they are human being. So a civilized society must have the rationality, religion. Religion is rationality, to accept God. What is religion? Religion means to accept God. Dayānanda: They say that, "You may have so many wonderful philosophies, but our desire is just to enjoy life." Prabhupāda: That means animal. That means animal. Animal has no philosophy. *Nava*-yauvana: Also they say that religions are the causes of war. In Lebanon now the Christians are killing the Muslims and the Muslims are killing the Christians, in the name of . . . Prabhupāda: And the Communists are killing capitalists and capitalists are killing Communists. What is that? Is that religion? Then? So how you can stop war? Because you are animal, you fight, you can give some name, either on religious ground or this philosophical ground. But because you are animal you will fight. You can give a different name. That is different thing. But because you are dogs, you'll fight. The real religion is why they will fight? Religion means to accept God. So if you are Muslim, I am Hindu, if I accept God, if you accept God, then where is fight? If we accept that God is the proprietor, God is the father, then where is the question of fight? Because we are not religious, therefore fight. Otherwise, if you accept God is the supreme father, if I accept God is the supreme, why fight? (pause) Prabhupāda: So we have to go down? *Nava*-yauvana: Everything you say, Prabhupāda, makes sense. Everything you say makes sense. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our preaching should be sensible, then people will accept. After all, they are human being. There is sense, but by force they are covering the sense. So we have to awaken them by handling carefully, that's all. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo gauracānda bole. Who are . . . uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpya varan nibodhata (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.3.14). They are sleeping. We have awaken them, that's it. That is preaching. Even the animal*-killing, where it is absolutely necessary . . . so according to any religious principle, there is God. Just like who was telling me? You were telling me about the lamb killing? The injunction is that the mouth should be toward Mecca. Is it like that? *Nava*-yauvana: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So because there is no other way . . . suppose in the desert, what they'll do? They must eat something. But still there is sense of God, there is some regulative principle. Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is also principle of sacrifice with very strict regulations. Prabhupāda: So in this way God consciousness must be there. That is civilization. Hari-śauri: You want to go down, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Conversation A -- August 11, 1976, Tehran Prabhupāda: . . . strongly by chance? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: How do they support? In other words, they cannot give explanation, and like a foolish man says, "Chance." You cannot give proper explanation how things are happening. Like a foolish rascal: "Chance." Dayānanda: Because they see according to their intelligence that things are happening according to chance. According to their understanding, sometimes things happen . . . Prabhupāda: So what is this understanding? The chance? Dayānanda: In their experience, or in our experience, we see things are happening . . . Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of the scientists? Things will take place by chance. What is the use of them? Dayānanda: By chance there may be an accident, or by chance there may be . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, things will happen by chance, accident. So why they're bothering about things and taking the credit of becoming scientist? Dayānanda: It's not completely chance. There are certain laws which they try to find, which act whenever these elements . . . Prabhupāda: So in other words, that they are not yet conversant with the things, and still they are claiming to be scientist. That is the point. They do not know thoroughly how things are happening, and still they are taking the credit of becoming scientist. Dayānanda: They have developed a branch of mathematics that deals with chance, things happening with chance. Prabhupāda: Yes, that mathematics department is now being closed. You know that? Nobody cares to attend that mathematic. People are becoming disinterested with these chance theories. There is one Dr. Henderson, you know? He became doctor in that field. He's not getting job, now he's manufacturing incense. Dayānanda: Oh, George Henderson? Prabhupāda: George Henderson. He has no job here. All these theoretical doctors are no longer required by university. *Nava*-yauvana: I was reading the other day that they are doing some experiments on Mars. They have twenty-two different theories about this one idea. Just this one little idea, twenty-two different theories. Prabhupāda: Theory means they are not certain. *Nava*-yauvana: The misfortunate thing is that people in general have faith in the scientists. Prabhupāda: So you have to create people to have faith in Kṛṣṇa. If people are going by faith, so you have to create this faith that Kṛṣṇa, that's all. They can create, you can create. And they criticize our destiny theory, believe in the destiny. They criticize it. So why they'll depend on chance theory? What is the difference, destiny and chance? *Nava*-yauvana: Destiny means there is controller. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Nava*-yauvana: Destiny means there is a controller. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but they cannot explain what is that controller; *therefore they disbelieve. Just like yesterday we were discussing that atheist class, they are by chance there was lusty desires and there was pregnancy and there will be child. So we say: "No. Daiva*-netreṇa . These things have been arranged by superior authorities." This is destiny, that what is already arranged by superior authority, that is destiny. You cannot change it. A man is ordered to be hanged by the court justice, you cannot change it. He is to be hanged. And they will say, "By chance he will be hanged." Jñānagamya: Sometimes something happens to interfere with that. He gets a reprieve from the governor, or the rope breaks, and they only hang him once, like that. Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but first thing is that if one is ordered to be hanged, he has to be hanged. Destined. But these people, they do not see who has ordered because they do not accept authority. They will say: "It is by chance." They have not seen who has ordered, who is that authority. They cannot explain, therefore they say "chance." Jñānagamya: They have no science of astrology, so they cannot understand the universe and how it's working. Prabhupāda: Astrology . . . I don't think they believe in astrology. There is no question of astrology. We practically we see that one man ordered to be hanged by the justice, he has to be hanged. That is destiny. One has not seen who has ordered, but he sees that, "This man is being hanged." He cannot explain; he says: "By chance." So whose explanation is right? The chance explanation or the destiny explanation—which is right? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Actually, logically, I cannot see how there is any chance, not a single. When I was a child I used to give an argument to my friend, and he used to say: "A chance. Everything is chance. It is like a lottery ticket." I said to him, "If you don't buy the lottery ticket and win $50,000, then that is chance. But if you buy the lottery ticket . . ." Prabhupāda: How it is chance? Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is no chance, because you bought the lottery ticket, so . . . Prabhupāda: Your destiny. Then your destiny. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They miss the order and the controller and the organizer. Prabhupāda: That is whole purpose—how to defy God. That is their whole plan. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, the mind is attracted to that. Prabhupāda: No, there are always two classes of men: devatā and demons. Demon class will always say like that, "There is no God. We are everything." Devatā class, they will always believe in. That is the difference, devatā class. This struggle will always be there. *There are two classes of men throughout the whole universe. One is called daiva and the other is called asura . The viṣṇu*-bhaktaḥ bhaved daivaḥ , those who are devotees of the Lord, they are daiva . And āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ, and those who are not devotees, they are just the opposite number, they are asura . So asura class will always say like that. And there is always fight between the two, even in higher planetary systems. Only Brahmaloka, Satyaloka, there are no more asuras . So asura class will always fight like that, and devatā class will always defy. But for God everyone is equal, because all of them are sons of God. Therefore an attempt is always going on to turn the asuras to become devotees. For this purpose God Himself comes, He sends His representative, how these rascal asuras can be turned into devotees. Otherwise, the asura class is always be there. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's the business of the representative. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because God is equal to everyone. He sees that these rascal asuras are misguided, so He sends His representative, He comes Himself, there is śāstras , guidance, and everything. The whole propaganda is how these rascal asuras can be turned into devatā . This is equality in the eyes of God. Very simple thing. Just like government puts a person into prison house. The idea is to correct him. Not that government is enemy of a class of men, they are put into the prison house. Government is equal. But there is department of punishing this . . . (aside) Don't show . . . (indistinct) . . . Government is equal to everyone, but there is the department of reformation which is called jail department. He's punished so that he may come to his senses that, "I have done wrong." But unfortunately there are stubborn criminals, they are not corrected. They go and again come, go and again come. One term finished; another term. One term finished . . . that is transmigration. One term finished, punishment, and another term begins. He creates another term. So that is daiva netreṇa. That is superior arrangement. Now this rascal has finished his human life, now again he has committed so many sins, let him become a dog. Again comes to the human form of life; again one chance is given. This not good. But he does not accept, so again he becomes a tree—stand up for ten thousand years. Nothing is a chance. Everything is under supreme control. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ( BG 3.27). But he is a rascal. He simply defies and suffers. One man is being slapped with shoes, so he is shameless, he says: "Oh, you have beaten me with shoes. All right, if you touch my wife, I'll sue you." Then the wife is beaten with shoes, then he says: "Oh, you have beaten my wife. All right, touch my son, I will sue you." In this way every member is being beaten with shoes, and he is simply challenging that, "I'll sue, I'll sue." This is going on. He's punished one after another, but he is so shameless that still he defies the authority. That is called asura . They're not very intelligent. "Next time I will see it. Wait millions of years, I shall see." This is going on. So we have to deal with asuras . This is the position. Devotee: That's why it's so difficult. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: That's why it's so difficult. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is a devotee's business. *Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. That is devotee. Because God wants it that these rascals may be turned into sane man. That is God's plan. Otherwise why does He comes? Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Huh? Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8)—two class, sādhu and duṣkṛtinaḥ . So to punish these duṣkṛtinaḥ , that is reformation. That is not God's envy, reformation. As the father gives slap to rogue child, that is also kindness, so these two processes are going on, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya . Then what is that dharma ? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). That is dharma . So to deal with the asuras is not so easy job, but we have to do that. You should not be discouraged. So asuras may be reformed or not be reformed, but because you are trying this job on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, He will recognize you. Your service will be recognized. Not that you attempted, therefore you must be successful. You may be unsuccessful. It doesn't matter. But you have tried your best, and that will be recognized. (pause) *Prabhupāda: And these asuras are trying to become happy by material advancement of knowledge. They're not happy—struggling—but this is called will*-o'-the-wisp, phantasmagoria. Actually, they are not happy, they cannot be happy, but they are trying. How they can be happy? Nature is there. *Nava*-yauvana: They are falsely proud of their achievements. *Prabhupāda: That is asura . That is, that means asura . They have already tried the moon excursion, failure—again do it. This will be a failure—again do it. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), repeatedly chewing the chewed. That is their business. One excursion—failure. It is already chewed. Whatever possibility finished—again chewing, "Let me see if there is any juice." Because they have no other business. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā . They are already discussed. This is their business. Failure; again. Failure; again. One war started, all the city bombarded, finished—again start, again reconstruct. And when the reconstruct finished, again war. Again bomb it, again reconstruct. Jñānagamya: Sometimes boys come here and they are involved in impersonal meditation. They want liberation . . . Prabhupāda: Well, that is their business. Let them do. You try to understand the position. Meditation is also something. Asuras , they do not take to meditation. Meditation is something beginning to the path of devatā. Dhyānāvasthita . If they are actually serious, then they can profit. Meditation is not always bad, if they are properly guided. But that is not the business of the asuras . They say: "On whom I shall meditate?" The asuras do not do that. Devotee: They have special meditation for asuras these days. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: They have special classes in meditation for asuras . They give them some meaningless word to meditate upon. Prabhupāda: So what is the purpose of this meditation? Devotee: To make . . . to relax the mind. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another thing. Material. That is that Transcendental Meditation. (long pause) Jñānagamya: How can we convince them? Prabhupāda: Hmm? How can you convince? They are asuras . Jñānagamya: No, those who doing some meditation that are Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Prabhupāda: No, they are also asuras . They do not know what is the meaning of meditation. That is psychology; it is not meditation. Or some medical treatment. Meditation is different, real meditation. Devotee: What is . . . what is real meditation? *Prabhupāda: Real meditation is to find out the Supersoul within the core of the heart. That is real meditation. God is situated in everyone's heart, so the yogīs , they try to find out Supersoul within the heart. That is real yogī. Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginam (SB 12.13.1). This is real yogī , trying to contact the Supersoul. They are searching after the God in His all-pervading feature. But, ah, some of them, they want to become one. That is asuric. One with God, that is asuric. Because they are being defeated by God, so therefore they want to become God to stop this defeat. That is asuric. Therefore they will never be able to be, but they are trying for it. Jñānagamya: It is the highest blasphemy. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jñānagamya: It is the highest blasphemy, isn't it? If one says: "I am God." *Prabhupāda: No, highest ignorance, highest rascaldom. (laughter) Yes. How one can become God? If one can become God, that means the such*-and-such, he was God. Then how he has become dog? That is another rascaldom, ambition. Jñānagamya: A devotee is only supposed to want service, and sometimes he very much wants to be liberated to be finished with all this difficulty, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jñānagamya: Is it very contaminating? Prabhupāda: Not contaminating, not in the highest stage. That is not contaminating. If the devotee wants liberation, then they're in the lower stage. Actually, a devotee, he is already liberated. Why he shall aspire after liberation? Jñānagamya: Pure devotee's liberated. *Prabhupāda: Therefore when he's purified, he's already liberated. There is no question of his aspiring after liberation. He's already liberated. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). Ātreya Ṛṣi: If the devotee's purified, he's convinced that if he becomes purified he will be free. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole devotional process is purificatory process. The more he is purified, he becomes high*-class devotee. But the process is the path of liberation. Just like mango. The green mango, this green mango will be ripe mango. The same mango. You cannot say that the ripe mango is different from the green mango. It is a process. By the process the same green mango becomes yellow; then it is perfect. (long pause; devotees chant japa in background) Prabhupāda: What is that point, there are thirty theories or something, about this Mars planet? *Devotee: Twenty*-two theories. Prabhupāda: You just told? Devotee: They are trying to understand the geology of the planet and how the surface of the planet was formed, and what . . . Prabhupāda: They have different . . . (break) *Nava*-yauvana: They are so foolish that they say that these experiments are very wonderful. They are very proud of these experiments . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Because they do not know. *Nava*-yauvana: Yes, the result is . . . Prabhupāda: Wonderful. Do not know. Wonderfully do not know. The platform is, "Do not know"; it is still wonderful. Wonderful foolish, like that. The platform remains "Do not know," but still it is wonderful. Jñānagamya: Their most intelligent philosophers and thinkers, they always say the more we know . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jñānagamya: Their most intelligent philosophers and thinkers, they say that the more that we know, the more that we understand that we do not know . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And that is wonderful. The more they become convinced that, "I do not know," that is wonderful. When they'll know? Devotee: And then they make these statements that, "The earth is this old . . ." They make statements like "The earth is this many years," without any factual basis. Prabhupāda: They are wonderful rascals. Just see. Shameless. Wonderful shameless rascals. They say that the moon planet is desert, vacant, no living entities. And we say that it is the planet for the pious men to live there very opulently for ten thousand . . . of these two classes of knowledge, which is better? We have got some evidence in the śāstra , but they have no evidence—they are simply speculating. Now this moon . . . er, Mars, they'll find the same result. Then how long they will go on like this? Ātreya Ṛṣi: As long as the society is godless . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: As long as the society's godless, then . . . Prabhupāda: So how long they will present the same theory over and over again? They're already putting the same thing. They have concluded in the moon there is rocks and sand, nobody can live. The same thing they are saying in a different way, and at the end they will have to say like that. Because they have no knowledge, it is simply theoretical. And they have no other alternative than to say the same thing again and again. What they will say? Jñānagamya: They say on Mars there can be life because the conditions are a little bit like earth. Prabhupāda: Suppose there is life, then what you gain? Devotee: They say that our knowledge now is not mere theoretical because now we have gone there. Prabhupāda: But what profit you have gained? You have spent some millions of dollars, that's all. Devotee: More theories. Prabhupāda: ( japa ) Devotee: The government encourages this spending of money while the citizens are unhappy and cannot be safe in their own city. *Prabhupāda: Yes, you must have such government. Dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ. They will snatch your money by force. You cannot say anything. That is punishment. Godless civilization, that is punishment, that your own government will snatch, by force, take away all your hard labor accumulation, by taxation. That is written in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . You cannot fight. You will be harassed in so many ways you will become mad. Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā yāsyanti giri-kānanam (SB 12.2.8). Hopelessly they will leave hearth and home and go to the forest. This godless civilization will be punished like that. That day is coming like that. Nobody will be peaceful. They will be mad. Just like when a man becomes mad, he commits suicide, he blows off his head. This will be done. There will be no rain—this is one punishment—and scarcity of food and heavy taxation by government. They are all mentioned. What more suffering you want? But still they are advancing, scientists. Devotee: One of the most practical things that people give credit to the scientists for is that they have invented these insecticides, these things that kill insects. But now they find that after they spray, after a few generations, the insects become immune to this, and they become stronger. Prabhupāda: Yes. The antibiotics medicine, at a certain stage it does not work. If too much antibiotic injection is given, then the . . . (indistinct) . . . does not work. Jñānagamya: It is like that with this syphilis disease, this venereal disease. Now they cannot kill certain strains of it. They cannot do anything about it. It becomes immune to penicillin. That is a big disease in United States. A big disease. *Prabhupāda: This is always, Western disease. It is a Western disease. Vairanga*-roga . In the Āyur-veda it is called vairanga-roga. Fairanga, farangi, farangi . The Westerners are called farangi , the vairanga-roga. So this syphilis disease was imported in India by these Europeans. Before, it was not there. There is a medicine called . . . (indistinct) . . . injection. Fifty years ago it was one rupee, four annas , price. But during the wartime the same medicine was selling at nineteen. In black market. Jñānagamya: That is their nature—everyone wants to exploit. Prabhupāda: Hmm. I have seen it, one rupee, four annas, the price goes nineteen. Jñānagamya: There is a story about a man who made some perfect cloth that would never get dirty, never get torn. So he made a suit out of it, and he was trying to market it. So he went to the capitalists, "Now I have made some perfect cloth." And they did not like it because they could not sell more cloth after they sold this. No one would want anything else. And the workers, they did not like it either, because they would lose their jobs. No one would buy this cloth. Prabhupāda: What is that? Jñānagamya: They tried to kill him. Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: He's telling a story. Prabhupāda: A story. Jñānagamya: The story is about perfect cloth. Prabhupāda: Perfect? Devotee: Perfect cloth. Prabhupāda: Cloth. Jñānagamya: So everyone was trying to kill him because he had this perfect cloth and it would put everybody out of business, because their business was based on exploitation, on the things wearing out, getting old, having to be renewed. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So we shall go now. This sun . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Conversation A -- August 12, 1976, Tehran Prabhupāda: I can give you formula. That toothpaste formula, that is my invention. It's working very nicely. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can we have it? What if we can't find neem leaves here? Prabhupāda: No, we can supply neem leaves from India, any amount, from Vṛndāvana. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Neem leaves from Vṛndāvana is unique. Nobody can imitate us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Neem leaves we can export from India. In the United Provinces there is ample neem trees. That I shall give you instruction also. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will start, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is better than . . . this is easier than restaurant. Prabhupāda: Now you consider amongst yourselves. I have no difficulty. I have given direction, "Do like that." Now what you'll do, that is up to you. So far giving help and directions, that you will get perfect, there is no doubt about it. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya, jaya . It is perfect. Prabhupāda: That you will get. Yes. How to manage, how to get ingredients, everything you'll get. Because I have to say only; you have to do. That's all. So that will be all right. Now decide. That will be very nice or very effective. Whatever we shall prepare, it will be very effective. So if there is market, why not introduce? I think there will be market, because this country is undeveloped. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will manage it, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There will be plenty of market. Prabhupāda: It is undeveloped.We require all these things. The more they become civilized, the more they require medicine and all these things. So you decide. I am so far giving instruction and help, and that will be available. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have been, Śrīla Prabhupāda, talking and thinking about it amongst ourselves, that now that we have this propensity to be in business, instead of working for karmīs we should have our own business. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So it's much better . . . if devotees are in charge, then the karmīs can work for us, and they can become devotees. But if the karmīs are in charge . . . Prabhupāda: We are. Our Society, it is not that we are simply sannyāsīs . We have got brahmacārīs , we have got gṛhasthas . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. We want to set example. Prabhupāda: So gṛhasthas should be provided with some profession, business, so that they can earn very nicely. That is good idea. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He has so much propensity to become engaged in these things. I have the propensity, all the devotees have the propensity. We can . . . Prabhupāda: So you make your formula, I mean to say, plan and scheme. So far how to do it, that instruction I give. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now in this house you will see, this house, the plan is that the house, the first floor will be kitchen, restaurant and a store, a little section for store. Store will have Your Divine Grace's books, records, tapes, japa*-mālā and some sweets, prasādam that is made to go, to sell. Prabhupāda: Who made sandeśa ? It was very nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Who made the sandeśa ? *Hari-śauri: Nava*-yauvana's wife. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Mañjarī. Yes, she can make sandeśa . Prabhupāda: Very nice preparation. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And some of these products also can be stocked there. Once we start and it is successful, then we can grow. Prabhupāda: (referring to Harikeśa) He knows how to make kachorī . Ātreya Ṛṣi: You like him to stay here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, I don't say, but he can give you instruction. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So if you will give us the formulas, we can learn from him the formulas for toothpaste? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: For toothpaste and what else? Prabhupāda: You remember it? Harikeśa: Hmm . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, exactly? Prabhupāda: But toothpaste, you require collapsible tube. Harikeśa: Got to be in tubes? It was better in the bottles. In a tube it just doesn't come out. Prabhupāda: No, that will come out. The powder must be made very fine. Otherwise, it will not come out. Hari-śauri: If it's pulverized with a machine it comes out. Harikeśa: Yes, if there's a machine it would be nice. Prabhupāda: Very fine powder. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What about if we served it in a different shape. Tube is common. If we make it a little different it would be more attractive. Prabhupāda: That you have to think, how it will be attractive here. Otherwise paste, put into the collapsible tube, then it becomes complete. The formula is there with everything. Simply it has to be made very fine pulverized. Harikeśa: And it lasts for a long time, because the toothpaste Prabhupāda is using now I made in last December. Last December. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Are you happy with it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is it good? He made it good? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, it was not made good because . . . it is not his fault. The powder was not very fine. But it will be better, nice, when the powders are very, very finely pulverized. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What other products do you recommend? Prabhupāda: That you want me, I shall give you. Harikeśa: The one on leg that you put that neem oil. That cleared up that cut in two days. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is that neem ointment? Harikeśa: He was in a car accident in Mauritius, and he got a big cut on his leg, big cut, and then Prabhupāda invented this medicine, cured it in two days. Prabhupāda: Any cut, any ulcer, it is very . . . (indistinct) Ātreya Ṛṣi: You can use for ulcer? Prabhupāda: No, any . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Oh, cut, ulceration, cut. How much royalty do we pay you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (laughs) Hari-śauri: It's gone a bit moldy on the top again. Prabhupāda: Fifty percent. Hari-śauri: It's gone a little moldy on the top again, Underneath it's all right, though. Prabhupāda: No, we shall do it nicely. Harikeśa: This looks different. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What is this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Salt? Prabhupāda: No, it is simply neem leaf. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Just neem leaf. Hari-śauri: Neem leaf boiled in ghee. Harikeśa: This is not the same. Prabhupāda: It was not properly done. Harikeśa: No. Prabhupāda: I asked Pālikā. Harikeśa: It was very good that other time. It was completely merged in the ghee, and it was very nice. I cooked it for three hours. Prabhupāda: The water portion should be abolished. Then it will not go, not bad. Ātreya Ṛṣi: If the water portion is . . .? Hari-śauri: Abolished. Harikeśa: The secret is cooking it for a long time. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, yes, of course, it should be dry. Then it won't go bad. Harikeśa: Three hours. Prabhupāda: If the water portion remains, it will decompose. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Do you have to use ghee? Can't we use some oil? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you can use vaseline. Ghee is better, but vaseline you can use. Vaseline is available. I think you are not manufacturing vaseline? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Iran. *Prabhupāda: Because vaseline is one of the by*-product of petrol. Harikeśa: They have olive oil and that here. Prabhupāda: No olive oil. Vaseline will be very cheap here. And you can, if you want to engage him, if he wants to do something, that Praṇava, let him supply neem leaves, dry, from Vṛndāvana. If he actually wants some money, let him do some business. Let him collect all neem leaves and give him twenty percent profit. Suppose he collects neem, collects and dry it, and then packs it and dispatch. The cost of . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Shipping and dipatching. The cost of dispatching, we give him twenty percent for him. Prabhupāda: Some arrangement he may make some profit. Honest business. Not that by cheating get something. That is not good. If he wants money, let him take. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Have you had your massage, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, I'll come back and do. Hari-śauri: We have to leave soon. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have to leave soon, in fifteen minutes. Prabhupāda: Yes, I can go. I can . . . give me ten minutes. I am prepared. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Ten minutes. So we can get ready to go. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And we can get these formulas from you later. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Many things toilet and medicines and . . . we can give. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will like that very much. Prabhupāda: Let them be engaged in different ways and earn some money. This incense I taught Gargamuni first. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. This is better than incense. You teach us the incense also, everything. We will do it. Prabhupāda: Incense, I first of all taught Gargamuni. The starting was there in New York. Do you know that? And now it has developed very nice. Pradyumna: The largest in the world. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like us to . . . we have . . . this temple has some dakṣiṇā for you. How would you like me to do it? Give you . . . I mean today is Thursday. Would you like it in what form? Would you like us to invest it for you here, or give you the cash? *Prabhupāda: If you give me interest, eighteen percent, I'll utilize it for Māyāpur*-Vṛndāvana. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I shall . . . yes, that's fine. So we can . . . Prabhupāda: No, purchase one small book, like passbook. So you become my banker; I deposit with you. You receive it and send the interest, that's all. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I will be glad to . . . fine. Prabhupāda: I make you banker. That's all. There is no botheration. You become banker, you send the interest. Now how you are utilizing, you know; I don't bother. But if I get the interest, then I think it is all right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya . Eighteen percent you'll have. Prabhupāda: What is it? Is it all right? Simple? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So just purchase one small passbook. And . . . you have got that passbook? Or you . . .? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, I know. I shall do it. I will do it. We will put in this bank book, your account, two thousand dollars now, today. Prabhupāda: And I'll give you some foreign exchange. Give him. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Whatever you give, I will put in that account. Prabhupāda: Give that cash money. Hari-śauri: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And you will get eighteen percent interest. You want it on a monthly? Yearly? How do you like? Prabhupāda: Monthly, no yearly. Harikeśa: Those Travelers Cheques there? Prabhupāda: Travelers Cheques I'll keep now. It may be required. (indistinct background conversation between devotees about packing and money throughout) Ātreya Ṛṣi: And monthly to India or to America? Prabhupāda: India, or America. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because America is cheaper. Because if I send it to India, if small amounts go . . . Prabhupāda: So you send to America. Ātreya Ṛṣi: To America is all right? I send it every month to Rāmeśvara. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles, yes. For deposited in account number I will give you. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will go and we will take care of all this this afternoon. *Prabhupāda: All right. Keep it now. We are going. We shall come back, and then later on. After coming back we shall give him. (noise of packing) Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yat dadāsi tat kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam ( BG 9.27). (break) Harikeśa: It took two weeks to make. Prabhupāda: Two weeks? Why? Because the ingredients were not . . .? Harikeśa: No, because your mustard oil, no one liked to taste it. And then you changed it to mustard seeds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: And then glycerin. Prabhupāda: Mustard seed also can be exported from India. In the Mathurā district there is sufficient mustard seed. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Those yellow mustard seeds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mustard seeds and instead of chalk powder we mix neem powder. Mustard seed, neem powder. Harikeśa: Calcium carbonate. Prabhupāda: And salt. Calcium carbonate means . . .? Oh, calcium . . . instead of calcium carbonate, let it be neem. It will be very effective. Harikeśa: I think the taste will be horrible. Prabhupāda: Yes, taste will be . . . (laughter) Harikeśa: No one will use it. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also . . . Harikeśa: I saw they make this other toothpaste with sucrose. The second biggest ingredient is sucrose on the karmī toothpaste. Prabhupāda: Sucrose? What is that sucrose? Harikeśa: Sucrose, you know, sucrose and glucose and lactose, those sugars. They use sugar powder, sucrose. Prabhupāda: Oh, sacrose. Sacrose, yes. Saccharin and sacrose. Saccharin is sugar product. Hari-śauri: It's like a sweetener but not . . . Harikeśa: We tried that, too, the first time, with those saccharin. Prabhupāda: No, that is no good. Harikeśa: That was not good. Prabhupāda: Salt is available very easily. Harikeśa: And they use hard soap powder in these powdered ones. We tried that first with the hard soap powder? They use that also. Prabhupāda: No, in this latest we shouldn't do it. Latest only simple three things, that's all. That is good. That has come out nice. Harikeśa: Menthol, pine oil, camphor, oil of wintergreen, glycerin, mustard powder, powdered salt and calcium carbonate. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Good memory, yes. These are the things. Hari-śauri: You put all that in the last batch? Harikeśa: Yep. Prabhupāda: In Durban, I think. Hari-śauri: In Bombay we made this last one. Harikeśa: No, that big batch last I made in Sanand. When you went to that Sanand, above Ahmedabad, where that king had his palace, we stayed in that palace. That's when I made that big batch. But first it was developed in Durban. Prabhupāda: Durban, yes. Because there was no possibility of using datur . My teeth broken, and it became painful, it was not working. Therefore I invented. But it is effective. Harikeśa: You said on account of this toothpaste . . . your teeth were so rotten they want to fall out, but the toothpaste won't allow 'em. *Prabhupāda: Yes, actually my teeth have gone all bad. It is useless. But on account of this toothpaste it is still working. (laughs) Otherwise, according to dental science, it has to be extracted. It is no other remedy. If you go to a dentist, immediately he will say: "Extract all this and have a new set, artificial." That is, I know that. But I don't want to extract. As far as possible, use them and let them fall down automatically, as they have already fallen down so many. Fifty percent already fallen down, and twenty*-five percent are shaking, and still I am eating. Otherwise, according to the dental science, I should not eat any solid food. In Bengal there is a word that when the teeth is gone, then your eating is gone. You cannot digest, you cannot eat. It is not . . . if the foodstuff is not properly chewed, it causes digestive disturbance. Hari-śauri: Indigestion. Prabhupāda: Indigestion. And digestive disturbance means so many diseases. And this coughing is due to digestive disturbance. I know that. Hari-śauri: That's because liver's not working, or . . .? *Prabhupāda: No. Yes. It is old man's disease. Liver does not work nicely, teeth does not work nicely, there is susceptibility to cold. Old age. All my young friends, they have all died. Nobody's living. One or two still. You know that Dinanath came? I think you know. He's living. He's seventy*-five, seventy-six. Little younger than me. Hari-śauri: Who's that? Harikeśa: Dinanath Mishra in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: One man, a case pleader. Hari-śauri: That very thin man? Oh, I know. Yes. He was very sick, actually, when we were there. Prabhupāda: Yes, he was sick. He was half dead. Hari-śauri: What about those people when we went back to where you used to live? When we came back from Māyāpur and we went out that night to . . . what do you call? Your old friend's house? Prabhupāda: Oh, Mulliks. Hari-śauri: Mulliks. Prabhupāda: They are just like my younger brothers. Their elder brothers were contemporaries. They are all died. Hari-śauri: Finished. *Prabhupāda: They are younger. They are all my childhood playmates. Their older brothers, the eldest one was my very, very intimate friend, Siddhesvar Mullik. We used to ride on the same perambulator when we were three, four years old. And Ratha*-yātrā ceremony was performed with all these guests. They were about, in our neighborhood, there were four, five houses. So all the children of the same age, I was the leader. (laughs) Yes. I organized this Ratha-yātrā. I was performing Rādhāṣṭamī, Janmāṣṭamī, and I was learning how to dress the Rādhā-Govinda. Yes. Hari-śauri: You used to go in and dress Them? Prabhupāda: It is, actually, it was our house. Just three, four house after. *Hari-śauri: Rādhā*-Govinda were the only Deities in the neighborhood, or . . .? *Prabhupāda: No, only Deity, yes. And Rādhā*-Govinda has big property. In front of the Deity house there is a very big building. Hari-śauri: Just across the road? That one? Prabhupāda: Yes, just opposite. That is His building. Very good income. Besides that, He has many other lands. They have got very good income. Hari-śauri: They're very well looked after. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: They're very nicely looked after. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are one of the oldest aristocratic families of Calcutta, Mulliks. The whole, from Howrah Bridge up to that street, all belongs to their property. Very rich men. Hari-śauri: Now they don't own so much. Prabhupāda: No, the Deity has got income. So they have got terms for worshiping the Deity. So one who gets the term for worshiping, he takes the income. Hari-śauri: Oh, in the family members. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But practically that is now their income. The more one gets the worshiping term longer, he gets more income. (laughs) The Deity has got very, very good income. All the temples in India . . . just like I am trying to make some fund for Vṛndāvana and Māyāpur. Even no contribution comes, it will go on. The sevā*-pūjā will not stop for want of money. So there will be no want of money. Still, I must make some provision, by the income the sevā-pūjā will go on. Contribution may come or not. That provision should be made. Now in Vṛndāvana Akṣayānanda is collecting and so many ways. Suppose nobody collects. That does not mean this temple will be closed. It must go on. So I am trying to make some provision from that bank interest, at least five to ten thousand rupees so that the Deity worship will not be stopped. That is the system in all Indian temples. It must go on. Nitya-sevā . It must go on. These big, big temple in Vṛndāvana, they have got such arrangement. Otherwise how it is going on for five hundred, six hundred years? They have very good income. Govindajī has got eighteen thousand rupees monthly income. That is . . . He's the richest Deity in Vṛndāvana. And Raṅganātha is tenant of Govindajī. Land is taken from Govindajī, and Raṅganātha's temple is constructed. The Raṅganātha's temple management pays the rent. So Govindajī is the landlord and Raṅganāthajī is tenant. (laughter) Raṅganāthajī is Rāmānuja-sampradāya, Govindajī is Gauḍīya-sampradāya. (laughter) So Rāmānuja-sampradāya is the tenant of Gauḍīya-sampradāya. (break) . . . government is looting? Hari-śauri: You want to come . . . (indistinct) . . .? Harikeśa: Everybody's coming? Hari-śauri: I guess so. Prabhupāda: No, as many as we want. Why? (end) Arrival -- August 13, 1976, Bombay (in car and at temple) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole thing is being done in one week. I just got the whole text from Nirañjana on Sunday from England. We've got it composed, it is going into printing tomorrow. it will be ready by Vyāsa*-Pūjā. It's a Hindi Back to Godhead on Janmāṣṭamī . . . Prabhupāda: Nirañjana is helping to translate it? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, and he's the most reliable. The others I find are not reliable. Even with Yaśomatīnandana, I give him a book, it gets stuck for three months. But now we are moving very fast. The first Hindi Back to Godhead we printed up forty*-five thousand; *it is sold. So I'm reprinting thirty thousand more in Delhi, and in Bombay we are producing a new Back to Godhead with thirty thousand first print. Forty*-five thousand of first printing is almost sold. People can't believe it. Even Hitsaran Sharma couldn't believe it that we distributed forty-five thousand Hindi magazines in two months. Prabhupāda: We are distributing millions in English. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We got a new import permit to import books worth five lakhs . I think I wrote that to you. And also the government is going to let us . . . Prabhupāda: I saw your wife in New York. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. She's in Dallas now. Also the government's going to give us permission to import paper now, and I have already arranged to get samples of Japanese paper. So this will make our quality very good. The government likes our printing in India. So that's why they gave me this new license. Because I said: "As we import and sell, we print more in India," so they like that. Prabhupāda: What is the temperature here? Hari-śauri: Temperature? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (to driver) What's the temperature, about? *Kartikeya Mahadevia (driving): Outside? Twenty*-nine degrees. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty*-nine degrees. Hari-śauri: What? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty*-nine degrees. Hari-śauri: What's that? Kartikeya Mahadevia: Centigrade. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Centigrade. *Kartikeya Mahadevia: It is about ninety*-five. Ninety, ninety-five. *Hari-śauri: Ninety*-five! *Kartikeya Mahadevia: Ninety, ninety*-five. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: How was it in Iran? Hari-śauri: Nice. Prabhupāda: Iran night, very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was there a year ago. I've gone to Tehran. Prabhupāda: In the morning also it is very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you go on the morning walk now, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard? Prabhupāda: No, not . . . Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda can't climb up stairs. Once he goes upstairs then he'll stay. Prabhupāda: What about the lift here? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The lift will not be ready till . . . your apartment will not be ready till December or January. They can't do it any sooner. Kartikeya Mahadevia: If Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to stay somewhere else, we can find out from people where, who have got lift. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise, I was thinking we have vacant that old flat of Menon on the ground floor. I discussed it with Girirāja, and I just wanted to . . . I was waiting for you. If you like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can convert. That is construction office. We can move the construction office somewhere else, and we can give you that whole flat on the ground floor. Girirāja and I both thought it was a good idea, but I just wanted your approval. We can do that in half a day. It is right on the ground floor. Hari-śauri: That would be very nice. Prabhupāda: Small. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but it is on the ground floor. That's the only advantage. In Vṛndāvana the guesthouse is all completely renovated. S. K. Samani came from Bombay, I showed him around Vṛndāvana, and he booked thirty rooms for ten days in September and October. Oh, it's first class. Prabhupāda: Mr. S. K. Samani? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: S. K. Samani, yes, Shri Krishna Samani. He liked it very much. Now the government has kept two policemen outside our Vṛndāvana temple to control the traffic, there is so much traffic. The policemen told me that we get even more people than Bankibihārī. But I don't think it's a fact, but the policemen say the crowd is bigger than Bankibihārī. Kartikeya Mahadevia: Should I take it around the gate? (indistinct conversation in Hindi)(sounds of traffic) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also a lot of people are coming to the Delhi temple. The Maharani of Jaipur comes every second day. She is the daughter*-in-law of the Maharani Gayatridevi. Everyone, lot of these . . . many people are coming every day to our temple in Delhi. Prabhupāda: What about Hyderabad? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hyderabad will be ready. I was there last week. It will be ready in time. The chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is coming as the chief guest on the day the temple will be opened. Kartikeya Mahadevia: We are getting very good bungalow in Ahmedabad. Six bedroom with six baths, all marble. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we don't have any devotees there. What will we do? Kartikeya Mahadevia: There are eight devotees at least. They have to vacate in any case. They have to go. (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . news stands also. Yaśomatīnandana has made some arrangement with some distributor. Prabhupāda: Newsstand? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, through news, where they sell newspapers and all. *Kartikeya Mahadevia: They distribute about fifteen hundred on Ratha*-yātrā day. Prabhupāda: Fifteen hundred on . . .? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ratha*-yātrā in Ahmedabad. Now we are distributing these books for one rupee each or 1.50 in Vṛndāvana, because now we've got the cost of printing down to sixty paisa . . . *Prabhupāda: Our Ratha*-yātrā in New York was very successful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I saw in the New York Times. I went to the American Embassy in Delhi, and I saw "East Meets West," that was the heading, and there were picture, and Daily News had it on the first page. Hari-śauri: Middle page. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: First page. Hari-śauri: Center pages. Prabhupāda: Three chariots, very gorgeous. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's due to your causeless mercy this is spreading everywhere. There were hundreds of orders from libraries. Actually, we cannot even keep up, there are so many orders coming. Every order has been dispatched, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There's not one order outstanding, but we are getting lot of correspondence, everything. That's why . . . and I spoke to Rāmeśvara two nights ago, he's shipping the books right away. Because we only got the sea. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, first our application for import of books was rejected. Then I went and met this very big man and preached to him. So now he's become a devotee and he said: "You just come to me. I'll give you in one day whatever you want." Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So he gave the import license for five lakhs in one day, he gave, and he also told me how to import paper. Kartikeya Mahadevia: From the other side? Port number five? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, doesn't matter. Anywhere. He also told us how to import paper. Prabhupāda: Gave some hint. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I gave him some books. I meet him regularly now, when I meet him. He'll come to see you in Delhi he said. He's the Joint Chief Controller of Imports and Exports, very high position. So he has the final authority for giving licenses up to one lakh . He said he could give it to us. Prabhupāda: What is the political position here? (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . big celebration here starting tomorrow to the 18th. P. K. Savant—he came to see you last year, the president of Maharashtra Pradesh Congress Committee—he is the chief guest. Mr. Pagay, another, he is the minister from Maharashtra, he's also coming. Very big program. It's being advertised all over Bombay. Prabhupāda: So raining stopped here? Kartikeya Mahadevia: For three days stopped, sir. Otherwise, it was very heavy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's monsoon, it will still rain. Prabhupāda: Throughout whole Europe there is not a drop of water. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They're getting suffering now. Prabhupāda: All, no cloud. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In France I read in the paper that the river was the lowest . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: (at temple) . . . (prema*-dhvani prayers) Thank you very much. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So when you have come? Everything all right? Devotee: Hyderabad will be complete. Prabhupāda: If there is any prasāda for distribution? Hari-śauri: Is there any prasādam for distribution? Devotee: It's coming. Prabhupāda: You are taking so much trouble. Mr. Ashnani: It's a pleasure Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ashnanijī's helping us a lot now. Prabhupāda: He is the cause of this site. Unless he would not help, it was practically lost. I know that. Two, three hours how we finished that sales agreement. Mr. Ashnani: Customs did not open that day anyway. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's right. We are always traveling. They should give us some concession. Every time we get checked. Actually, the government should have given us the best facilities because I am distributing India's culture all over the world. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, I am not receiving encouragement from the leaders and the authorities. This is India's glory. History will say. ( prasādam arrives) Give it. Yes, you can . . . Hari-śauri: Pass it out. Prabhupāda: All people are responding all over the world. They . . . money, men, strength, everything they are supplying. But we are not getting very good encouragement from India. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that every Indian should become guru and preach the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. *This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . and people are hankering after receiving this instruction. Unfortunately, the so*-called svāmīs, yogīs , they are going . . . or even politicians, they are not presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Anyway, so long I live I shall go on struggling like this. That's all. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Nitāi, when you are coming? Nitāi: I came just two days ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Everything is all right? Nitāi: Yes, everything is fine. Prabhupāda: So, now you can disperse. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Take prasādam and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. And we have now nice buildings. Live here peacefully, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās . This is my success. If I see that you are living very nicely, chanting very nicely, then all my labor is successful. Hari-śauri: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So if all the devotees would like to leave now, then Prabhupāda can rest a little bit from traveling. Harikeśa: You can distribute prasādam in the hall. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are older than me. Indian man: Older Your blessings . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Live peacefully, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is for you, so many buildings. Let devotees come, live here peacefully, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That I want. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a lot of devotees visiting Bombay. Prabhupāda: How many devotees? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: On a permanent basis about forty, but there are a few from different centers. *Prabhupāda: (referring to Vyāsa*-pūjā book) Where you have received this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ṛṣabhadeva, president of Spiritual Sky Products. Prabhupāda: President of . . .? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Spiritual Sky in Los Angeles. He has come on a business trip. They were trying to negotiate buying incense sticks from Mysore, sandalwood, and Bangalore. So they are . . . did you get those color proofs I sent you of Bhāgavata ? Did you like? It's coming out quite nicely. Prabhupāda: Not as good as . . . not as good as foreign. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not as good as foreign? That is . . . Prabhupāda: I replied you. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we are going to be printing the softbound book for seven rupees. Prabhupāda: All right, we shall talk later on. Now let me . . . Hari-śauri: Maybe somebody could take these flowers and put them in vases. (indistinct talking in background) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All the pictures have a garland. Prabhupāda: Still you . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Distribute it? Prabhupāda: (chuckling) So you have come. It is good. Pālikā: Would you like to take some fruit now? Prabhupāda: I'll tell you. Not now. Harikeśa: Haribol . (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: Everything came in and nothing is on any passport. Prabhupāda: All right, that's all right. Harikeśa: Oh, you had the key. Does the Dictaphone work? All right, you take the keys back. The Dictaphone. Hari-śauri: . . . (indistinct) Harikeśa: Just one second. If you can open it I can . . . or just pass it to me and I'll open it. Prabhupāda: That projector also there? Harikeśa: Projector? Prabhupāda: No, there was no projector. Hari-śauri: No, no. That was Ātreya Ṛṣi's. Harikeśa: Yes, we should have many of those in India. Hari-śauri: First class. Harikeśa: They're so marvelous. Hari-śauri: This is a desk. Harikeśa: Do you have the almirah key? Hari-śauri: This is almirah . Harikeśa: Prabhupāda's bedroom almirah somehow got out here, or is that the office almirah ? Prabhupāda: Which almirah ? Which almirah ? Hari-śauri: The sitting room, it says. This one, I think. Maybe it's not. Harikeśa: I can go check on that. Hari-śauri: They weren't labeled when we were here, they were labeled a long time afterwards. Harikeśa: This is not for this. Hari-śauri: This is the cash box. Harikeśa: This one has two keys, Hari-śauri. They say "one" and "two." This is not it. This is the key for the inside. This is not this key. Hari-śauri: It's this one. This is it. They all fell off the hoop. Harikeśa: Oh. Do you have the key to these two almirahs out here? Hari-śauri: There's some keys that we didn't know where they fitted. Prabhupāda: So, how are you? Girirāja: Fine. Prabhupāda: Everything is going? Girirāja: Yes, very nicely. Prabhupāda: And the lift is . . . oh! Hare Kṛṣṇa. Lift is not available. Hari-śauri: They're all here now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There was one key that dropped off the hoop. There's one, two, and the small cash box inside. Harikeśa: This is the cash box key. For this box. Hari-śauri: What are these keys? This, this . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, how he can know? Harikeśa: He had one key, I think, for one of these. Girirāja: I don't have. Prabhupāda: Keep in the bag everything. Hari-śauri: Yes, they're all in the bag there somewhere. A couple weren't labeled. This is here. Prabhupāda: Everything all right? Indian man: Very comfortable journey? There was weather? Prabhupāda: (chuckles) There was no water. All over Europe there is no cloud, no water. Girirāja: No water? Prabhupāda: No water. Harikeśa: Big drought. They just had to close the factories in Wales because there's no water now. Girirāja: It's a reaction to their sinful activities. Prabhupāda: It will be increasing throughout the whole world. Anāvṛṣṭi . Hari-śauri: They think it's just happening by chance. *Prabhupāda: Godless civilization. Sinful activities. The reaction will increase—no rainfall, scarcity of food grains, and government taxes. These are written in Bhāgavata. Anāvṛṣṭi*-durbhikṣa kara-pīḍitāḥ (SB 12.2.9). Government will exact tax more and more. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a scientific study done by the CIA in America, this study done by the CIA on world weather conditions. And they concluded that the world weather conditions will only get worse and worse. There's going to be drought every three, four years, and so there will not be food production. Prabhupāda: It is predicted in the Bhāgavata five thousand years ago. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They're having earthquakes in China now. Hari-śauri: Yes, big ones. They say a million people died in the last one. Prabhupāda: You have got the keys for that? Hari-śauri: I think they're . . . that last set that I gave you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? These, yes. Prabhupāda: Now print books many, as good as possible, and distribute. Let us do our duty. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have three small Hindi books in production, plus as I said, Hindi Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: Oh. This silver loṭā has become very black. You can get it polished. Prabhupāda: See if there is . . . Hari-śauri: If there's . . .? Prabhupāda: If there is worms. Hari-śauri: I was just looking in the corners. There's some spiders, I think, and there's some signs again of worms. Some powdered remains and things like that. Prabhupāda: So we shall . . . Hari-śauri: So I think if we do it once more then it should be finished. *Indian boy: I come from Tanzania, Dar*-es-Salaam. Hari-śauri: That's in Africa. Indian boy: Yes. And we are the Life Member of ISKCON. You know Navayogendra dāsa of Nairobi? Now he is transferred in Mombassa. Prabhupāda: Navayogendra, yes. Indian boy: Yes, he came there between 1975 or 1974 and he made us the member. He's now in Mombassa. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . So when you have come here? Hari-śauri: When have you come here? Indian boy: Here? We just came for a holiday trip. Prabhupāda: Where you are staying? Indian boy: In Malad. Prabhupāda: So come tomorrow at five. Indian boy: At five. Do you have the Hare Kṛṣṇa Cookbook ? Prabhupāda: Ask him . . . Hari-śauri: If you like, go out there now and see Girirāja. He's the president. He'll fix you up. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian boy: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: Get some prasādam when you go. Indian boy: Yes. Prabhupāda: So cleanse this. Hari-śauri: This spittoon? They . . . oh. They've put one here, actually. This is the bathing loṭā , but there's one here also. Oh, they used this for bathing your feet. This is a new loṭā for drinking until . . . I'll clean this silver one. (long pause) Prabhupāda: This is spittoon? Hari-śauri: Yes. (break) Prabhupāda: So? What fruit you have got? Hari-śauri: I'll go and check. Prabhupāda: Ask somebody to call Saurabha. Pālikā: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is this? Pālikā: Some sweet one girl has made here. Prabhupāda: Not everyone should make. She is initiated? Pālikā: Yes. I will generally make, but I just arrived today, so there was not time. (pause) (end) Conversation A -- August 14, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: So they were not crying very loudly, but the grandfather inquired, "So why there is . . . it appears there is some great suffering?" So my father's eldest brother, he inquired, "Is your mother dead?" I consider like that. No, no . . . (indistinct) . . . "So I am also dead." He died later on. Dr. Patel: Next day. Prabhupāda: Hmm. He simply inquired, "I think your mother is dead." They said: "No, no." "No, I am also going to," and he died. Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: These things are not very wonderful. From spiritual point of view this has no meaning. This is worldly affection. It is worldly affection. That is not very good asset for spiritual life. Āsakti . One has to give up āsakti . That is the process, renouncement. Voluntarily. *Dr. Patel: Anāsakta*-manaḥ . Prabhupāda: Yes. Our Vedic process is that at a certain age you must retire from family life. Voluntary, forceful, giving up association. Dr. Patel: Even there is worship . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. So these are āsaktis . This husband and wife dying together, it is . . . (indistinct) . . . because āsakti is there. That āsakti will help him, that the wife will become a husband next life, and the husband will become wife next. And in that way they'll have to take birth again. Dr. Patel: Soul has got no sex. *Prabhupāda: Karma*-bandha . *Dr. Patel: Karma*-bandha and jīva . Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, Fifth Canto, Fifth Chapter. Harikeśa: Karmātmakaṁ yena ? *Prabhupāda: Ah, śarīra*-bandha. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam, yāvat mano vai karma . . .? Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Bandha . Harikeśa: "As long as one does not inquire about the spiritual values of life, one is defeated and subjected to miseries arising from ignorance. Be it sinful or pious, karma has its resultant actions. If a person is engaged in any kind of karma , his mind is called karmātmaka: colored with fruitive activity. As long as the mind is impure, consciousness is unclear. And as long as one is absorbed in fruitive activity, he has to accept a material body." Prabhupāda: That's all. Lābh wahi hogā. (That is the only result.) The woman will become man and the man will become woman. Dr. Patel: So long you are taking birth . . . Prabhupāda: What action you have got? Before that the verse is, So this body is temporary, but it is very miserable. That they do not understand. *Dr. Patel: Kuṇape tri*-dhātuke . Prabhupāda: That they do not understand. That as soon as you accept a material body, either a very rich man's body or poor man's body or any body, either brahmin's body or śūdra's body, to accept material body means undergo miseries. Dr. Patel: But you have no choice to accept. By the will of God . . . Prabhupāda: No, you have got . . . you can become free. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . . . *Dr. Patel: Bhakti*-avyabhicāriṇī . I have got that tendency, bhakti , avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti . *Prabhupāda: No, no, simply to know Kṛṣṇa. Māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena ya . . . so you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa without bhakti . Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). So without bhakti-yoga there is no possibility to understand Kṛṣṇa. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you'll become free from this process of accepting material body. *Dr. Patel: Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the only business, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and avoid this botheration of repeating body, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is there. If you want to stop dehāntara-prāptiḥ , then you have to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no other way. But if you think that it is very pleasure to enter within the womb of mother and accept one body, and again come out and again work, and again die and again enter, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19) . . . if you want this business, that is your choice. You can do it. But if you want to stop it, then this is the only way. Therefore śāstra says na sādhu manye . It is not good. Nūnam . Read that verse. Harikeśa: *Prabhupāda: Kleśada āsa dehaḥ. Kleśada , as soon as you get a body, kleśada . May have good doctor friend, but I'll have to suffer. (Dr. Patel laughs) We can get some relief, but suffering is there. Therefore na sādhu manye . It is not good. So people are being trained up to become mad, pramattaḥ . And do anything, bring money. This is the modern civilization. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma . Things which are forbidden, they are doing that. Why? Indriya*-prītaya āpṛṇoti, only for sense gratification. They have no other ambition. Bring money and gratify senses. This is modern civilization. This is the exact explanation— nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Black money, white money, this money, that . . . never mind, bring money. Dr. Patel: (laughter) By any way. *Prabhupāda: Yes, this is modern civilization. Big man, big rich man, means bring money some way or other. This is big man. This is Kali*-yuga. Because if you have got money, you have got respect, you have got honor, you have got . . . you are recognized. So therefore they are after money. Bring money, that's all right. When I shall get money, I may have done black money, force money, this money, nobody will remember it. Bās . This is modern civilization. Bring money and enjoy sense. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). What for it is, struggle so much working hard? Yad indriya-prītaya : only for the satisfaction of the senses. They have no other ambition. Because most of them, they do not believe there is next life. Most of them, 99.9 percent, they do not believe. Big, big professor . . . I have talked with so many big, big men in Europe. They have no faith . . . our leaders also. The Munshi, he did not believe in the next life. Dr. Patel: There is research in parapsychology in certain municipality of India, they have proved that there is rebirth. *Prabhupāda: That they may do, a very great service, but we know it without going to through psychological process. We believe Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), bās , finished. What is the use of going to the psychology and . . .? Dr. Patel: But those . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, those who are fools, they may waste their time in that way. (laughter) But we are not so fool. Dr. Patel: They are fools to not to think that they'll become . . . *Prabhupāda: They are rascal fools because they do not take Kṛṣṇa's word. Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Why should we bother? Our mission is simply to propagate Kṛṣṇa's instructions. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't manufacture anything. So-called yoga , so-called meditation, so-called this and . . . we don't care for all this nonsense. Our only business is how to implement the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, the rascals may understand and be happy. That is our mission. We haven't got to manufacture anything. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bās . You simply carry the message of Kṛṣṇa and try to deliver it to anyone you meet. This is our . . . we haven't got to manufacture anything. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Take it. No interpretation. Don't spoil the whole thing. Interpretation means spoiling. Whole thing spoiled. Dr. Patel: Each man understands according to his own level of understanding. Prabhupāda: No. Suppose, just like you are medical man, you are giving somebody medicine, you are giving the direction. If he wants to be cured, he must take your direction. Not that somebody comes, "No, no, you can take it this way, you can do this." That is nonsense. That is nonsense. This nonsense we want to stop. Kṛṣṇa is giving the instruction, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12), the Supreme Personality of Godhead. What business you have got to poke your nose and give interpretation? Are you bigger than Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa left it for you? This nonsense going on. Big, big svāmīs , big, big yogīs , big, big politicians, simply misinterpreting, he's spoiling his own life and he's spoiling others. Bās . This is going on. Very serious condition. Dr. Patel: You are not going to go down now? Prabhupāda: No. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to go on the terrace, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: If I like, I can . . . Dr. Patel: Abhi upar chalne ka muskil hota hai. (Now it is difficult to walk up.) Prabhupāda: Chalne ka nahi muskil hota hai . . . (It is not difficult to walk . . .) (indistinct) . . . why I have taken so much trouble? Dr. Patel: They are already traced out. So we come here. *Prabhupāda: No, you come and preach. The country is going to hell, the human society is going to hell for misguidance. These rascal leaders, they're going to hell themselves and they're leading others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). These fools and rascals are leading, they are going to hell, and they are taking the followers to the hell. This is going on. Stop this. At least in India. Save. That is real para-upakāra . That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. *Para*-upakāra . Our India is not meant for exploiting others. Doing good to others, that is India's mission. Our teachers, our ācāryas , do not teach us, "Go and exploit others and bring money"—British Empire. This is not India. Dr. Patel: Even Jesus never taught that. These are the wrong followers. Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ is different thing than that. I mean to say generally, generally the people, they want to exploit others. Dr. Patel: It is the greed of the human being. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but the mission should be, human being should be meant for doing good to others. Para*-upakāra . That para-upakāra spirit is gone on account of losing our own culture. Otherwise, India's culture is para-upakāra . India was open, "Come everyone, learn." Lord Jesus Christ also came here. All the Chinese, learned scholars, they used to come. The history is there. And India was open. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam . This is Indian culture. Even the enemy comes, "Yes, please come, you stay." But later on, they took advantage, "Oh, they are very liberal. Enter there." And still we are liberal, "Please come here, stay here and take prasādam free, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Open to everyone. I shall manage anyway. I shall travel, still I shall lay down my life and bring money. "Come here, stay." Still we are liberal. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). First of all, make your life successful by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then do good to others. *Yesterday, I think, in Tehran, one boy came. He proposed that is it not good to help others? I immediately challenged, "What you have got you can help? What is your asset?" You cannot help. It is simply bogus proposition. If you can help, you can simply help by spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "Sir, I have come to you." "Why?" "To request you that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious." "How?" Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ , "Always think of Me, just become My devotee, offer little obeisances." Anyone can do. A child can do. You cannot do? What is the difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Is there any difficulty? You haven't got to practice any yoga process, pressing your nose or keeping your head or this or that. No. Nothing. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68): "Without any doubt you are coming back to Me." And that is the highest perfection, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). There is no difficulty in preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no difficulty to accept it. And the result is the supreme. Dr. Patel: These are the people who have no faith. Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to canvass. They have no faith, I know that. Then why there is necessity of preaching all over the world? They have no faith, it is a fact. And you have to create faith. That is preaching. Padayor nipatya. That Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī: This is preaching. Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, what is that? Kāku-śataṁ padayor nipatya , kāku-śatam kṛtvā, śatam , "I fall down on your feet, and I am flattering you with folded hands." "Why? Why? What do you want to say?" "Yes, I have to say something." "What is that? Say it! Why you are becoming so humble?" "Yes, I have to say." "What? Say it!" He sādhavaḥ , "You are a very nice sādhu . But you forget all nonsense." Dr. Patel: That's kāku-śatam. *Prabhupāda: He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya , "Whatever nonsense you have learned, forget." Then what to do? Kāku-śataṁ bravīmi sakalam eva vihāya dūrād caitanya*-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam . "You just become devotee of Lord Caitanya. I am flattering you, I am falling down on your feet"—this is preaching. And what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . .? Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). And if you do that, then what is the result? Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). If one is doing like that, Kṛṣṇa immediately recognizes, "Oh, you are the best friend of Mine." So if you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, then what you want more? You are undergoing so much austerities and . . . to be recognized by God. And God says that "Immediately I recognize you." Whom? One who is doing this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). Immediately. You may be a fool, you may be rascal, you may be illiterate. But if you do this, immediately Kṛṣṇa recognizes. Kṛṣṇa never said that unless one is a big grammarian, big scientist, big politician, big engineer, big doctor, then I recognize. No. Simply one who does this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam . What is that paramaṁ guhyam? Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66): "Give up all nonsense. Surrender to Me." This is paramaṁ guhyam . And they are simply manufacturing nonsense. *So the time is very bad, but nature's law is very strict. We may defy it, "There is no God, there is no next birth, there is no nothing." We may say like that, but when death will come, you cannot say anything. Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). Bās , all your talkings, all your intelligence taken away. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Immediately transferred to another body. Daiva-netreṇa. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). "No, no, I am Prime Minister!" "No, you must become a dog." (laughter) Immediately. How can you protest? You cannot protest. You have acted like dog; *just become a dog. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya. Just like your medical science: you have infected the disease, you must suffer it. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ. Guṇa-saṅgaḥ . There's infection. Dr. Patel: Only in nirguṇa , a man can become nirguṇa by . . . Prabhupāda: Eh, don't talk of nirguṇa . First of all (laughter) become a dog. Dr. Patel: Because the only thing that can bring nirguṇa , then you may stop from getting a dog, if you do the bhakti . That is what I mean. Prabhupāda: Nirguṇa means bhakti . Nirguṇa means bhakti . Sa guṇān samatītyaitān (BG 14.26). That is nirguṇa . When you are untouched by the three guṇas , then you are nirguṇa . That is not very easy job. Dr. Patel: Very difficult. Prabhupāda: That is not easy. *Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati (BG 18.54). Nirguṇa is not so easy thing. This is nirguṇa . Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66). This is nirguṇa . Otherwise, everything sa guṇān , everything sa guṇān . Only fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, nirguṇa. This is . . . so . . . Humara desh me Bhagavad-gītā hai ispar instructions hai, ise cchor chaar karte hai. (There is Bhagavad-gītā in our country. The instructions are all there but they are giving up everything.) They are talking, "Yes, you take Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa." They say it. And they are doing that. Dr. Patel: Who? *Prabhupāda: Anyone. Take Mahatma Gandhi. He was so great student of Bhagavad*-gītā . Did he preach kṛṣṇa-bhakti? Bhagavad-gītā minus Kṛṣṇa, this is going on. Yes. Kaṁsa. Kill Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. What is the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? And everyone is preaching like that. Very worse condition of the world, godlessness, and they'll suffer, there is no doubt. Prakṛti is very strong. You can do whatever you like, but kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya , that will act. You may be very proud of your so-called prestigious position, but the kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya . . . puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi . . . (BG 13.22). Find out. *Guest: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . *Prabhupāda: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . He has to. He has to. Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān . So we are now put into the material prakṛti , and prakṛti-jān guṇān , we have to accept another body. This is the rascaldom. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Prasādam , you have got? (devotees offer obeisances) What is the report? Yaśomatīnandana: We are publishing monthly magazine every month now. One is coming out in a few days for Janmāṣṭamī. And we have changed new house, very good house . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is the rent? Yaśomatīnandana: Land also . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, rent. Yaśomatīnandana: Rent is thousand rupees. One thousand rupees, plus tax for government. Prabhupāda: Plus twelve hundred? Yaśomatīnandana: No, plus two hundred tax. They are Life Members from Ahmedabad. They came to see Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. So give them place to stay. So . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) Conversation -- August 15, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: That's all. Devotee: Thank you. *Prabhupāda: So mind, his business is to think something. But ordinarily the thinking is we accept something and reject something. Or accept the same thing and again reject the same thing. This business is going on. But if you think of question, there is no question of rejecting. Simply accepting. Then it is fixed up. Other things you accept and reject. Something we accept as "Oh, it is very good." Again, "No, no, it is not good." Accepting. Childish. Child is playing, one type of playing, "No, no, another one." That is material. And when you fix up—no rejection, simply accept it—that is Kṛṣṇa . . . so if you think of Kṛṣṇa . . . just like here is temple. If you come and, as other devotees are doing, if you do, if you attend maṅgala-ārati , if you attend bhoga-ārati , always see, then offer obeisances, then naturally you will think of Kṛṣṇa always. Then as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become purified. Just like if you touch with fire you remain always warm. Similarly, man*-manā , if you always think of Kṛṣṇa, you gradually become fully Kṛṣṇa-ized, Kṛṣṇa's devotee, Kṛṣṇa's servant. That is perfection. There is no difficulty. People will not do that. That is the difficulty. "Why shall I think of Kṛṣṇa? I shall think of this, I shall think of that." This is the difficulty. Otherwise not difficulty. You have to think something, think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. Guest: Ye sanskar se hi nahi hota hai. (Does this not come with cultural values.) *Prabhupada: Sanskar nahi ye hamara zid hai nahi karte, ye badmashi. (Not cultural values, this is our obstinacy, this is foolishness.) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ ( BG 7.15). Duṣkṛtinaḥ . Badmash, rascal, karega. Jaise child hota hai, koi baat sunega hi nahi, itna accha baat hai, nahi sunega, badmash hai, usko joota se theek karna hai, maya joota se theek karna hai, koi mushkil nahi hai, kahega nahi to mar do, joota se theek karo. (Rascal, he will do it. Just like a child, he does not listen to anyone. Such a fact, he will not listen, he is foolish rascal. He has to be beaten with the shoes to make him understand, illusion can be driven away by beating him with shoes. It is not very difficult.) Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Joota khate*-khate phir theek ho jayega. (Beating with shoes by māyā , that's all.) Kaam bhi hai, maya ki kaam hi hai. (If he is stubborn and refuses then beat him with shoes. By being hit with shoes a number of times, he will understand. This is the work of illusion.) (someone enters) Oh, when you have come? Woman: This morning. Prabhupāda: I was thinking of you. Woman: Oh, yes? Prabhupāda: So did you go to Bangkok? Woman: No, I'm going very soon. Prabhupāda: Maar khane me hi hai, wo bolta hai nahi . . . (It is in the beating, he refuses . . .) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Jab tak criminal rahega pitega police se khoob aur udhar badmashi chod dega police se bachne ke liye. (As long as he is a criminal, he will be beaten by the police and if he transforms to escape the police.) " mam eva parapadyante mayam etam taranti te ", pehle to police se mar khao. (first you are beaten by the police.) Guest: Mayavadi to ye . . . me zyada tha. Idhar zyada hai ki udhar? Indian side me ki west me? (The impersonalists . . . was more. Is it more here in India or there? On the Indian side or the western?) *Prabhupada: Hum to Indian ya wo sub jante nahin. sides nahi kahin bhi hoye. Indian Māyāvādīs are more dangerous. Udhar Māyāvādī kuch nahi hai, sab materialist hain. yehi to sub india ko kharab kar diya hai. (I don't know, Indian or others, there are no sides, wherever they are. There are no impersonalists, only materialists. They only have spoiled the name of India.) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). Anyone who is influenced by Māyāvādī, he's doomed. Indian man: He's doomed. Prabhupāda: He's finished. No more spiritual knowledge. He's doomed. Indian man: How far the study of the scriptures helps us in being Kṛṣṇa conscious? *Prabhupāda: You read Bhagavad*-gītā . That is the essence of all scriptures. And follow it. It is, from the very beginning to the end, it is simply helping you. You haven't got to read many literatures. Just like these American, European boys, they are with me for the last, utmost seven, eight years. Otherwise, three years, four years. So how are they becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious? It is not at all difficult. They are accepting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and becoming perfect. But in India, "Why shall I worship Kṛṣṇa? I have got this, I have got that." He'll bring thousands of Kṛṣṇa competitors, and he'll himself, he has become Kṛṣṇa, "I am God." You see? He's so shameless that he says that, "I am God." God is so cheap. He's shameless. He has no shame even, how he says that he is God? Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . So-called jñānī means māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . Indian man: Māyāvādī? *Prabhupāda: Māyayā apahṛta*-jñāna . Māyā . Maya uska gyan cheen liya aur wo samajhta hai hum bada gyani hai. Hai to wo moorkh No 1 aur wo samajhta hai hum gyani. Uska naam hai 'maya apahṛta-jñāna' apahrta mane cheen liya, wo mayavadi. (Illusion has taken away his knowledge and he is thinking that he is very intelligent, actually he is fool No. 1 and he understands that he is highly intelligent. His name is " māyayāpahṛta-jñāna " apahrta means taken away, he is an impersonalist. Who is very very much under the influence of māyā , he is Māyāvādī.) Unless he is too much under the influence of māyā , how can he say that, "I am God"? Which is impossible? Samjh lijiye koi baccha bol diya mai raja, ab bol dene se ho gaya raja. Itna saral se raja ho gaya. Rajya chahiye, praja chahiye, ministers chahiye. (Just think some child simply said that I am king, will he become king just by saying, is it so easy to become king, there should be a kingdom, there should be subjects, there should be ministers.) So many things which make one rāja , and if you simply imagine, "I am rāja ," so how much rascal he is, just see. Mūḍha . Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Isliye Chaitanya Mahaprabhu kehte hai, (That is why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,) Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). If one follow the Māyāvādīs and thinks that, "I am God," then he is finished. His future is finished. Guest: Wo to gyan cheen liya isse wo is stage par aagaya. (Because his knowledge was taken away, so he has come to this stage.) *Prabhupada: . . . agyan ho gaya pagal nahi. Jaise aadmi koi pagal ho jaye to phir uska diagnosis hoga. jivan*-mrtya, pran rehte hue bhi mrtyu. Ek pagal wo hai aur ek pagal karmi. "Nunam pravatta kurute vikarma" karmi zyada hai. Ek factory ko samajhta hai hum khoob parishram karke khoob rapay-paisa kama ke sukhi ho jayenge. Ye ek pagal hai. Aur ek pagal hai humne parishram to bahut kiya par sukhi to nahi ho saka. Ab bhagavan . . . (. . . he has become ignorant not mad. Like if some person becomes mad then he is diagnosed. Life and death, even though alive, is as good as dead. He is mad and another mad man is a fruitive worker, more number of fruitive workers. He considers that he will work very hard, earn a lot of money and be happy. This is one mad man and another mad man. I worked hard but could not become happy. Now God . . .) Guest: Wo kya sochta hai? (What does he think?) *Prabhupada: To sochta hai ye jhoot hai, jagat mithya hai uske peeche nahi jana chahiye, hum bhagavan hain. Uske baad ye satya, bhagvan bola hai satya. Ye sab chal raha hai, isliye bhagvan kehta hai "sarva dharman parityajya" kuch vyakti to ye samajh lete hain ki hum karmi hokarke, parishram karke, rupaiya*-paisa kamake, sarvatah raja ho karke, ye sab hkarke hum sukhi honge. Samajhta nahi ki isme sukh nahi. Ye ek pagal, ye ek pagal. (So he thinks that this is false, the world is an illusion; we must not run behind it. I am God, after this truth, God has revealed the truth. This is going on. That is why God says: " sarva dharman parityajya ". Some people think that by being a fruitive worker, working hard, earning lots of money, becoming a king, doing all this I will become happy but he does not understand that this is not happiness. So this is one mad man and that is another mad man.) Aur real sanity is jo bhagvan ka das ho jaye. bus. Wo din kab ayega jab hum sochenge ki hamara prabhu hai wo hamara sar chipakar raksha karta hai. is tarah se main . . . hounga. Jaise koi vyakti nisahay aur ek admi janta hai ki hamara pitaji hai, hamara matron hai, wo hamara raksha karega. Aiye baithiye. (And real sanity is to become the servant of God, that's all. When will that day come when I will understand that I have a Lord, He will give shelter and protect me. This way I will become . . . like a person who is helpless and another person knows that I have a father. I have a matron, they will protect me. Come, sit. That is very nice that, "I have got a protector.") Indian man: Ek sanath. Mane ek nath hai, sanath. Anath and sanath. (One can be fearless, free. One with a protector, means one Lord, protector and orphan.) *Prabhupāda: Aur jo . . . wo anath hai. Jaise anth children hota hai bechare rasta me ghoomta phirta hai. Wo sanath jo janta hai ki hamare pitaji. Ye Natural hai (And one who has no one is an orphan. Like the orphans who roam around in the streets. That is one who knows that I have a father. Oh, yes. He's fearless. This is natural.) I have seen in my practical life. Long ago I was going in a tram car. So my son, he was two years old. The conductor said "Paisa lao, to bolta "paisa nahi." To conductor bolta hai utar jaiye. "Hah! Hamara pitājī he!" hum kaise utar jaye. Ye sanath. (The conductor said: "Give money" so he said: "I don't have money." The conductor said: "Then get down" He said: "Why, my father is there, how can I get down?" This is protected. He's confident, "My father is there. How can you get me down?" This is natural.) Sanātha*-jīvitam. Kadāham aikāntika-nitya-kiṅkaraḥ praharṣayiṣyāmi . That is ānanda, that "I have no fear. I have got my father here. I have got my protector." Sanātha-jīvitam. That is a fact. Aur ek anath jeev, koi tumko keh . . . ki parishram karo aur maro. Ye sab anath hai. (And one orphan, someone tells him . . . that work hard and dies. All these are orphans.) *Anath hone se asanti, kya hoga. Pita nahi hai hamara kya galti. Jo bolenge wo hum kar lenge. kya sharm, jo hukm karega kar lenge. Aur bhukti mukti apne account se kam karenge, apna plan banayenge. Jo karmi hai wo apna plan bana raha hai, itna rupaya kama lenge,to wo usi koshish me asanth aur mukti kami jo bhagvan ho jaye wo bhi asanth hai. Aur siddhi*-yogi wo sab yog-siddhi chahte hain jaise pani ke upar chal jate hain, dikhane ke liye sona lana phir magic bante-banate . . . usme to karigari lagta hai aap ek jewellery dikha ke thug le to uske liye parishram karna padega. Aur bhakt ko kuch karna nahi hai, jo bhagvan bol denge usko kar denge. Uska apna account se kuch karna nahi, na to magic dikhana hai, nahi to swarg-lok me jana hai, nahi to bhagavan hona hai, na to jail me jana hai, na to aur kuch karna hai. Caitanya-caritamrita me hai 'bhukti-mukti siddhi kali sakali asat'. Ye jitna hai sab asat. wo krishna bhakti me kuch-na-kuch chahiye, bhagavan se ek hone hai na to uska magic dikhana hai, na to swarg-lok jana hai, usme kya hai. 'narayan para sakti na kutascan bibhyati' jo Narayan ke hukm ka palan karta hai usko kuch karna hi nahi hai.' . . . bhagavan bolta hai tum nark me jayega theek hai jayega, bhagavan to humko hukm karega. (If one is an orphan then no peace, what will happen, if father is not there what is my fault? What they say I will do, what shame, what they say I will do. And from the account of bhukti-mukti we will work, we will plan. Those who are fruitive workers, they are making plans, we will make so much money, they are busy in that effort. Those workers, materialists who try to become God are always disturbed. And the yogis are busy with their jugglery like walking on the water, on the fire, producing gold, in doing this . . . but skill is required in this. If they produce gold and show you that requires effort. But the devotees don't have to do anything. They don't have to show magic, they don't have to become God, they don't have to go to heaven, they don't have to go to the police station, nor do they have to do anything. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is stated " bhukti-mukti siddhi kali sakali asat ". Whatever there is in this material world is false, illusion. In Kṛṣṇa devotion something is required, either merge into effulgence, or show magic, or go to heaven, what is there in this. " Narayana para sakti na kutascan bibhyati ". One who follows the instructions of Narayana he does not have to do anything. If God says you must go to hell then accept, God gives orders.) Humko to bhagavan ka hukm manana hai. To aap agar nark me hukm manana to bhagvan ko jana padega. To hamare saath bhagavan hai to nark kya hai. jaise Narad Muni jate hain vaikunth me. To Narad prachar karne ko gaya to nark me thode hi gaya. (We have to just follow God's orders. So if you have to go to hell to obey His orders then He will be there and if He is there then it is not hell. Just like how Narada Muni goes to the heavenly planet. He does not go to hell to preach.) Jaya . (end) Conversation -- August 16, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: Vairāgya is there. Dr. Patel: Sir, shall I say, vairāgyaṁ jñeyam . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt ( SB 11.2.42). This is vairāgya . So unless he has attained this stage, virakti , then where is bhakti ? Bhakti is so powerful that it brings automatically vairāgya . But if there is no vairāgya , where is bhakti ? Understand it now? Yes. It does not depend that you have to practice vairāgya separately. But if you are actually bhakta , then vairāgya is there. If there is no vairāgya , there is no bhakti; *it is sahajiyā*-bhāva. *Yaśomatīnandana: In other words, vairāgya is a by*-product of bhakti . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated: *Vairāgya is to be practiced, but bhakti is so strong, kecit kevalayā bhaktyā , simply by bhakti, vāsudeva*-parāyaṇa. Vairāgya immediately comes. Aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ . If actually one is pure bhakta , then everything material, finished. That is real bhakta . Now I have got some bhakti and some material desire also, that is not bhakti . That is markaṭa-vairāgya. That does not mean that I shall stop bhakti . No. You take bhakti to the principle, to the regulative principle, then automatically vairāgya will come. The vairāgya is not coming, that means you have not been a pure bhakta . That is adulteration. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). That is bhakti . And because there is not anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167), it is adulterated. *Dr. Patel: Bhakti*-avyabhicāriṇī . *Prabhupāda: Avyabhicāriṇī , yes. Māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena yah sevate. Avyabhicāreṇa. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He is above three guṇas . So if I am still under the modes of material nature, that means I'm not in avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti . This is the warning. Therefore Lord Buddha rejected Vedas . Dr. Patel: Because, sir, in the name of Veda people were misbehaving. Prabhupāda: *Vedas* , when Lord Buddha wanted stop animal killing, these rascals came with *Vedas* : " *Vedas* there is sacrifice, there is animal killing." So he thought that these rascals will create botheration. By bringing *Vedas* , there is . . . he said: "I don't care for it." Veda māniyā . *Similarly, these rascals are giving evidence of Rūpa Gosvāmī's advice that, "Here is Rādhā*-kuṇḍa mentioned." But whether you have followed other things. Yaśomatīnandana: Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha*-vegaṁ, pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. Etān vegān yo viṣa . . . you are manipulated by the udara-vegam, upastha-vegam . But first there is test: etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ (NOI 1). Then for him Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). He has got three dozen sevā-dāsī , and living in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. My Guru Mahārāja wanted to publish Govinda-līlāmṛta . He asked permission of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So first of all Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, "I'll tell you some day." And when he reminded, he said: "Yes, you can print one copy. If you are so much anxious to print it, print one copy. You'll read and you will see that you have printed. Not for distribution." So we are printing all these books for understanding properly. Not that "Here is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Let us go." Jump over like monkey. "Here is rāsa-līlā . Immediately . . ." *Acyutānanda: Even in Kṛṣṇa book, rāsa*-līlā should not be told in public. Prabhupāda: No, why? Kṛṣṇa book must be there. In the book must be there. Acyutānanda: But in public . . . *Prabhupāda: But you should go gradually. You should go gradually. You first of all understand Kṛṣṇa, then kṛṣṇa*-līlā. If you have not understood Kṛṣṇa, then you'll think Kṛṣṇa's rāsa-līlā is just like we mix with young women. And that becomes as polluted. Because they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Kṛṣṇa understanding so easy? If you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, how can you go to the Kṛṣṇa's confidential activities? Acyutānanda: Some of the devotees, they said that it is for liberated souls. So they said, "Well, we are all liberated." Prabhupāda: Yes. Liberated for going to hell. Devotee: In your Kṛṣṇa book, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've given such clear explanations along with the stories of Kṛṣṇa that it's very difficult to misinterpret them, because you use such clear explanation. Prabhupāda: No, you read all the books first of all. Then you'll be able to understand. Yaśomatīnandana: Even theoretical understanding that Kṛṣṇa is transcendental will not help unless one . . . Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa is giving . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa lifted the hill. Now how you can become equal with Kṛṣṇa? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about if some devotees, I know they want to come to Vṛndāvana . . . Prabhupāda: Every devotee, they must follow the rules and regulations, that's all. Devotee: And engage in practical service to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane āśā . Has he taken order from Guru Mahārāja that "I am going to jump over Rādhā-kuṇḍa"? Why does he go? Daily singing, guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete, āra nā kariha . Why should he desire like that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are some devotees who always want to . . . *Prabhupāda: They are not devotees. Rascals. Don't say "some devotees." Devotees will hear: guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane. *Acyutānanda: They also wear the Rādhā*-kuṇḍa māṭi, tilaka . *Prabhupāda: There is no harm, but they should understand what is Rādhā*-kuṇḍa and how to deal with Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī showed how to live in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau . He was circumambulating Rādhā-kuṇḍa, falling down, making a mark. That is Rādhā-kuṇḍa vāsī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Not only counted holy names, but offering obeisances so many hundred times in . . . (indistinct) . . . that is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. He, so much vairāgya he showed. He can take bath in the Rādhā-kuṇḍa. First of all, do this like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca yau. *Yaśomatīnandana: In other words, first one should understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then gradually the First Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , then ultimately Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Without that, simply taking Caitanya-caritāmṛta . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavad*-gītā is the entrance. Then Bhāgavata is graduate, and Caitanya-caritāmṛta . . . this is the step by step. But if one is sincere, everything becomes revealed to him. He does not commit mistake. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Some devotees, especially in Vṛndāvana, who will always try to run to Hardwar, Jagannātha Purī, always parikramā of holy places. Prabhupāda: It is good to go to holy places. Acyutānanda: They go independently. Yaśomatīnandana: Unauthorized. Acyutānanda: They go more to avoid service than to become purified. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But there's no harm if they just . . . *Prabhupāda: (coughing) You see you can become independent, nobody can check you. Everyone is independent. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). But one who wants to be regulated, he has to surrender. That is voluntary. Otherwise, everyone is free to do whatever he likes. And those who are surrendered souls, they will wait for the instruction of guru and do accordingly. That is the proper. Guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha. That is wanted. Otherwise, everyone can remain independent. All living beings are independent. Even if I say that you do not do it, you are independent, you can do it. Even Kṛṣṇa gives independence to Arjuna. Yathecchasi tathā kuru : "I have told you everything. Now you do whatever you like." So that depends on the candidate. Everyone is free to do anything, but if he's actually serious, then he has to do guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete āra nā kariha . This is . . . Acyutānanda: What prompts the soul to misuse his independence or improperly use? Prabhupāda: Because he has got little independence. Yathecchasi tathā , he has got this. Acyutānanda: Why do some misuse it and some never misuse it? Prabhupāda: That depends on him. If one is determined that, "I shall only act according to the advice of my Guru Mahārāja," then he's perfect. One has to submit like Arjuna said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). Otherwise he'll argue. *Devotee: Even nitya*-siddha has guru in the spiritual . . . *Yaśomatīnandana: Even the liberated soul, nitya*-siddha. *Prabhupāda: Liberated soul never says that, "I am liberated." As soon as he says "liberated," he's a rascal. A liberated soul will never say that "I am liberated." That is liberation. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is God— guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan (CC Adi 7.71): "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me fool number one, and he has chastised Me." He's God. This is the example. If one remains always a servant ever*-lastingly of guru , then he is liberated. And as soon as he thinks that he is liberated, he's a rascal. That is the teaching of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Guru more mūrkha dekhi . Caitanya Mahāprabhu is mūrkha ? Why He's posing Himself that mūrkha , "I am fool number one"? That means that is liberation. You must be ready always to be chastised by guru . Then he's liberated. And as soon as he thinks that, "I am beyond this chastisement. I am liberated," he's a rascal. Why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan ? This is sahajiyā-vāda. He is thinking, "Oh I have become liberated. I don't require any direction of my guru . I'm liberated." Then he's rascal. Why this Gauḍīya Maṭha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru . He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that, "This man should be the next ācārya ." But these people, just after his passing away, they began to fight, who shall be ācārya . That is the failure. They never thought, "Why Guru Mahārāja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be ācārya ?" They wanted to create artificially somebody ācārya , and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Mahārāja wanted to appoint somebody as ācārya , why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insisted on it. They declared some unfit person to become ācārya . Then another man came, then another ācārya , another ācārya . So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Mahārāja. That is perfection. And as soon as he learns the Guru Mahārāja is dead, "Now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and I become." Then he's finished. Yaśomatīnandana: They kept fighting, and when the real ācārya emerged they all became wonderstruck. They all became baffled. Now they all know in their hearts. They all know it. I can see. They all know that who is the real ācārya . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The real ācārya emerges by his own preaching? Devotee: Yes. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- August 17, 1976, Hyderabad Harikeśa: Speak loudly. Hari-śauri: It's very noisy. Mahāṁśa: This is Dr. Ghosh. This is Visukeran Agarwal, one of our very close friends in Hyderabad. He's a very close friend in Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: I think I have seen you. Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Apni Dr. Ghosh? (Are you Dr. Ghosh?) Dr. Ghosh: Ami Dr. Ghosh, bohudin Europe chilam. Tarpore Gurur adeshe amra jongole ekta gram sristi korechi paharer upore. Sekhane athash bochor achi. Ta apnar somosto je byapar amar jana ache. To apnader upolokkhe ekta prokando jaiga okhane, aaj mane chomotkar paharer upore, khub nam kora, eni janen, Kodaikanal. Kodaikanal er kache. Okhane sob jaiga dhore . . . (indistinct) . . . ponchas, ponchas kilometer er modhhe. Khub boro jongoler modhhe amra somosto gram toiri korchi. Sekhane amader upasonar dorkar, apni jodi ektu pododhuli den tahole amader dos hazar loker upokar hoye jai. (Yes I am Dr. Ghosh. I stayed in Europe for many days. Then by the order of my guru we made a village in the forest at the top of the hill. Staying there for twenty eight years. I am aware of all your activities. For your sake I have selected a big place there, at the top of the hill, very beautiful. It's a famous spot, he knows, Kodaikanal. It's near to Kodaikanal. There holding the lands . . . (indistinct) . . . fifty, within fifty kilometers. We have made villages within a very big forest. We need to do some activity of worship there, if we can get the dust of your feet there then it will be of great benefit for the ten thousand people who are residing at that place.) Prabhupāda: Nischoi jabo. (Surely I will go.) Dr. Ghosh: Apni ese . . . apnader ei sob lok joner jonne ami ekta jaiga toiri korechi. Jara, era ja kaaj korche, boddo gorom. Sekhane chomotkar thanda, chiro bosonto. Kak nei, sap nei. (Once you go . . . I have made a place there for all of your people. These people, the work that they are doing, here it is too hot. The climate there is very cool, eternal spring. No crows, no snakes even.) Prabhupāda: Ekhan theke koto dur? (How far it is from here?) Dr. Ghosh: Kachei ekhan theke. Ami to ekhane aat din apnar jonne bose achi. (It's not very far. I am waiting here for you for eight days.) Prabhupāda: Oh! Besh korechen. (Oh, you have done it good.) Dr. Ghosh: (laughing) Ha ha . . . aat din, eni janen. Aat din bose achi, apnar ektu . . . amar naam ache prithibite. Ami mane Paris theke amar . . . (Ha ha . . . eight days, he knows. For eight days I am staying here, just for your little . . . I have a good reputation all over the world, from Paris mine . . .) Prabhupāda: Puro naam ki? (What's your full name?) Dr. Ghosh: Hiranmoy Ghosh Singho. Amra Jessore er lok. Amader pitamoho ra sob Jessore er raja chilo. Sei sob gachhe . . . Singha, sei jonne amader boro cheler naam er pichone ekta Singha thake, kenona amra khotriyo. Ta ami bohu kal bilete chilam. Amar satero bochor bilete theke. Desh swadhin hobar pore amra asi. (Hiranmoy Ghosh Singho. We are from Jessore. Our ancestors were the kings of Jessore. All those are gone now . . . Singha, for that reason the eldest son in our family carries the title "Singha" (Lion), because we are ksatriya . But I stayed overseas for many years. I stayed in foreign countries for seventeen years. After India got independence we came back.) Prabhupāda: Kothai chilen? (Where did you stay?) Dr. Ghosh: Besirbhag somoi France e chilam. Ami daktari MD France theke ni ebong Vienar theke ni. Nea amar Europe e khub boro posar chilo. Jokhon desh swadhin holo, tokhon Sri Aurobindo amader guide chilen. To Jawaharlal Nehru amake deke anen. To dekhlam sob pagoler byapar. Aurobindo bollen, tumi o sober modhhe miso na. Tomar ja kaj seta jongol, gorib lokder songe. To khuje khuje ekta jongol ber kore sekhanei bose achhi athash bochor. Amar boyesh satattor. (Most of the time I stayed in France. I took my MD in Medical from France and Vienna. After that I had a very good practice in Europe. When India got independence, at that time Sri Aurobindo was our guide. Jawaharlal Nehru then called me here. After coming I realized that these were all insanity. Aurobindo told us not to get involved with those people. He said that your job will be in the forest, with poor people. After searching a lot we found out a forest and stationed there for twenty eight years. Now I am seventy seven years old.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . jokhon Gandhir assistant ra sob jail e jai . . . (. . . (indistinct) . . . when all the assistants of Gandhi were going to jail . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Ha. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Onek bar approach korechilo, apni asun. I refused, na na. (They approached me many times, please come and join us. But I refused, no no.) Dr. Ghosh: Sunun amar okhane khub Hari sankirtan hoi, aar amra Joidev, amar stri khub boro songit, khub namkora, biswo bikhyato. Ta amra sob bose achi apnar pododhulir jonne. (Listen, we perform regular Hari sankirtana there at my place and we also recite Jaydeva (a poet), my wife is a big singer, very reputed, famous all over the world. So we all are waiting there for the dust of your feet.) Jokhon e bolben jabo. (I will go whenever you ask me to go.): Prabhupāda: Dr. Ghosh: Ami toiri, apnake ghare, mane Honumaner moton apnake nea jete raji achhi, ek jhape. (laughter) (I am ready, like Hanuman I will carry you in my shoulder and reach there with a big leap.) (laughter)) Prabhupāda: Ekhane 5- 7 din . . . (indistinct) (Here 5 to 7 days . . . (indistinct)) Dr. Ghosh: Ekhan theke kache. Apni . . . apni jedin . . . sunun apnar jonne ami ekhane, eni janen dos din bose achi. Kal rattir bela apnaked dekhlam boro bhir. (It's not far from this place. When you . . . when you . . . see he knows I am sitting here for ten days. I saw you yesterday night but it was heavily crowded.) Prabhupāda: After this function we can go there. Dr. Ghosh: And he knows about Kodaikanal. It's a very wonderful place. Prabhupāda: I shall go there. Mahāṁśa: There are very, very big schools there. Dr. Ghosh: Tahole ki hobe janen, apnar modhhe theke ekta hole por amar mone hoi je sob neche jabe. Aar amader barite to nach gan cholchei saradin. Apni dekhun ekbar. Amra boro gorib, ei . . . (indistinct) . . . ese jan. Amra chaoar, matir ghore thaki. (You know what will happen then, if one program can be done there then I think everyone will take part in dancing. And in our home there are singing and dancing going on throughout the day. You please consider my request once. We are very poor . . . (indistinct) . . . please come, we stay in thatched mud hut.) Prabhupāda: Amar cheye adham ke, ami ei movement start korechilam challish taka dea. (Who is poorer than me, I began this movement with just forty rupees.) Dr. Ghosh: Ta to jani. Sob amar . . . apnake ami onusoron korchi onek bochor dhore. 1966 sal thekei amar mon apnar payer upore. Ta apni se jonne bhabben na. Se sob ja bolbar . . . ami je , apni janen je ami apnar khub boro bhokto. (I know that. Everything I . . . I have been following you for many years now, from 1966 only my mind is residing on your feet. You please don't worry about that. Whatever is to be said . . . I am, you please know that I am a big devotee of you.) *Prabhupāda: Ei jinish tar secret hochhe, yea (The secret of this thing is that,) tesam satata*-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam ( BG 10.10)) Dr. Ghosh: Amar kan ta ektu kala hoye gachhe. Satattor bochor boyesh amaro. Apnar theke ami matro char bochorer . . . (I am becoming little deaf, my age is seventy seven now, I am only four years . . . than you.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ghosh: Ta apnake seba korbar jonne bose achi. Keno amar jonne apni . . . (So I am waiting here just to serve you. Why for me you . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ghosh: Amake sokkole jane. India te ami, amar . . . (Everyone knows me. In India, my . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Mahāṁśa: Ha ha ha, I told . . . Dr. Ghosh: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Amar haat khub bhalo. Onek, enara sob jane. Mane ektu seba kore gele, mane boro boro byadhi sob, amar okhane bhir hoye jai loker. Ta apnake pabo bole, ami kothao jai na. Jei sunlam je apni aschen , ami tara tari ekhane ese bose achi. Apnar kacha kachi e bose thaki. (I am, mine . . . I am expert in that. All these people knows. Means I try to serve, all chronic diseases, people gathers in great number at my place. But only to see you I came. I don't go anywhere. The moment I heard that you are coming, I came hurriedly here and was waiting for you. I remain seated near you only.) Prabhupāda: Apnar . . . (Your . . .) Dr. Ghosh: E sob amar patient, era sokole amake chene. Ta ami bollam, baba amake, ekhan theke nore ami, jotokhhon na Prabhupāda aschen totokkhon. Sei jonne 29 tarikhe. Ta apni jedin jaben, oder sob bondobosto kore bolun. Sei din aponar jonne ami niche . . . (All these people are my patients, they all know me. I said to them, let me, I am not going to move anywhere till the time Prabhupāda is coming. For that reason since 29th. So when you are planning to go, tell them (your disciples) to make arrangements. That day I will be there below . . .) Prabhupāda: Ora je dine bolbe, ami se dine jabo. (When they (my disciples) will select a date, I will go that day.) Dr. Ghosh: Santite cholun. Ta apko to malum hai ke e sob jaiga . . . (indistinct) . . . apnar Gokuler moton lagbe. Okhane amra dos hazar gorib lok achi. Apni jodi ektu pododhuli den tahole amader oi nach gan bhalo . . . (Plan peacefully and come. You know very well about all these places . . . (indistinct) . . . you will feel like you have come to Gokula. We, about ten thousand poor people are staying there. If you kindly visit then our singing and dancing will be very good . . .) Prabhupāda: Mohaprabhu hochhen patita pabon. (Mahāprabhu is the deliverer of fallen souls.) Dr. Ghosh: Patita pabon. (Deliverer of fallen souls.) *Prabhupāda: Narottam Das Thakurer gan, patita*-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . . . (Narottama Das Thakura sang patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Achha, patita pavana. Amra sei upokar, apni kale je bollen upokar karna. Oi tai amader mane aaj athash bochor dhore cholche. (Well, deliverer of fallen souls. You were telling about doing benevolent activity yesterday. We are doing that for twenty eight years.) *Prabhupāda: Mo*-sama patita prabhu nā pāibe āra (Prārthanā 39). This is the appeal made by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, "My Lord, Your incarnation is for very, very fallen souls, and You'll not find anyone who is more fallen than me. Therefore my claim is first." Dr. Ghosh: Ami jokhon gelam aj, bhasa jani na sokole jongli lok. Ora abar, British ra bolche tribe, criminal tribe era. Karon ora goru toru uthie nea jai, dekhche badorer moto fol dekhle jhulche khai. Oder okhane gele, amar athash bochor. Amar pach ta school ache. High school ekhon ekta. Oder mane employment er boddo kosto. Sejonne khete khute okhane ekta . . . (When I first went there, I didn't know their language, all were forest dwellers. Britishers told that these tribe, they are criminally inclined. They used to steal cows etc. and if they saw some fruits hanging in the tree, they will eat it. In that tribal's place I am staying for twenty eight years. I have five schools there. High school is only one now. Getting employment from them is very difficult. That's why after hard work, there one . . .) Prabhupāda: Na na, okhane te sob jaiga royeche, ora sob . . . (No no, there are enough place available, they all . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Jaiga to ami kinichi aste aste. (Gradually I have purchased land there.) Prabhupāda: Ami bolchi, sekhane sob nijeder kheti, nijeder kapor, nijeder . . . (What I want to mean, there they can have their own agricultural activities, own clothes, own . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Sob, tai to bolchi, apni ekbar padadhuli din, apnake dekhabo. (Everything. That's what I am saying, you just come once, I will show you.) Prabhupāda: Ha? (Yes?) Dr. Ghosh: Apni obak, apnar khub anondo hobe. Apni jeta korte bolchen amra seta korchi. (You will be astonished, you will become joyful. What you are telling to do, we are already doing that.) Prabhupāda: Besh. (Very nice.) Dr. Ghosh: Apni ekbar ese jan. Amader ekhane pododhuli din. Amra boddo gorib. Apnake nebar moton shokti amader nei. Ta holeo amra ghare kore apnake nea jabo. (You just come once. You put the dust of your feet there. We are very poor. We don't have enough capacity to take you. Still we will carry you on our shoulder and take you there.) Prabhupāda: Jar Bhogoban sohai ache se abar gorib kothai. (Whom Lord is favouring how can he be poor.) Dr. Ghosh: Ta to ache. Ta na hole apnar songe dekha hoto na. Ami morbar age, ek e , bollam je amake Bhakti . . . Prabhupādaer songe ekbar dekha korie dao. Kal ratti bela, sara din apnar chinta, sondhe bela chinta. Ekhane ese dekhlam. Eikhanei bose achi, oke jiggesh korun. Ami eikhanei bose achi. Apnake ektu seba korbo, ei amar sokh. Sei jonne bhalo tel thel baby oil sob rekhechi. Apnake ektukhani mane changa . . . dekhun amar shokti jothesto ache, apnar theke. (Yes the Lord's favour is there or else I would not be able to see you. Before I die, I told him to fulfil my one wish, let me just once grant a meeting with bhakti . . . Prabhupāda. Yesterday night and all the day, in the evening I was only thinking about you. After coming here I saw you. Since then I am sitting here, ask him I am sitting here since then. Just wanted to give you a little service, that is my wish. For that I have kept good quality oil, baby oil with me. I want to make you little rejuvenated . . . see I am having enough strength, stronger than you.) Prabhupāda: Ha apnar to built well. (Yes you are well built.) Dr. Ghosh: Khub bhalo, keno. (Yes I am well built, because . . .) Prabhupāda: You are healthy . . . Dr. Ghosh: Era sob jane, how I revived them. Ekhankar sob lok amake chene. Ami bollam je Prabhupāda asbe, ora amar okhane ase. Ami bollam Prabhupāda asbe ami okhane gea bosbo. Keno apnar kotha ami dekhun dosh bochor dhore moner moddhe ache. Apni ja ja korchen, somosto tarikh by tarikh apnar somosto bole debo. Amar tin jon ache jara apnar somosto boi, amar okhane tin copy kore ase. Amader librery ta khub boro hoye gachhe, okhane mane, apni okhane ese ekbar amader ektu upodesh din. (They know everything, how I revived them. All people here knows me. I told them Prabhupāda will come, they all come to my place. So I told them Prabhupāda will come, I will go there and wait for him. See for ten years I was thinking about you. Whatever you are doing, I can tell you date by date all the events. We have three persons who reads all your books. Three copies of all your books comes to my place. Our library has become very big. You please come there and give us some advice.) Prabhupāda: Ha ha, ami jabo. (Yes yes, I will go.) Dr. Ghosh: Jongoler moddhe ele dekhun jongoler mongol hoye jabe. (You come to the forest and see that there will be auspiciousness in the forest.) Prabhupāda: Aar apnar, sune ja ekhon bujhechi . . . (So your, what I have understood by hearing from you . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Are, apni obak, apni gea dekhen jodi. Tar moddhe jodi apni Bhagobot sonen aar amader somosto Joydev songskrito, apnar khub anondo hobe. Apnar ekhane ache songskrito, recording tape ta ana hoi ni. To apni okhane cholun, apnake sara din amra nachie debo. Apni dekhbo, amader nach e dekhben sudhu. Amader okhane dance school royechhe.Chaitanya Mohaprabhu e to prothome dance arombho koran. Chaitanya Mohaprabhur age keu dance koran ni. (You will become amazed, If you go there and see. Moreover if you hear *Bhāgavatam* there and all our Jayadev's sangskrit, you will be very pleased. We have Sanskrit here, but the recording tape I couldn't bring. You simply go there, we will make you dance the whole day. You will see, you will see our dance only. We have a dance school there. It was Caitanya Mahāprabhu who first inaugurated the dancing. Before him on one performed dancing.) Prabhupāda: Drama also. Dr. Ghosh: Ei jonne amra sob . . . (That's why we all . . .) Prabhupāda: He is the first beginner of . . . (indistinct) . . . Uni goverment scholar chilen. Russia tasia somosto jaigai, khub, mane govt pathai oke. (She was a government scholar. The Government sends him to Russia and many other places.) Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Ghosh: Ei jokhon khub boro boro lok, boigganik . . . (indistinct) . . . rani, queen Elizabeth. To oi ekmatro ache je gea bujhie dei, je nacher . . . saradin to amader okhane oi nacer e chorcha, ganer chorcha, sob bhorti. Apni amar okhane ja songskrito sunben, apni kokhhono eto bhalo songskrito sonen ni. Eto poriskar. Amar Europe Amerikar jonne kori. Ora onek ase , amader chatrora sob bohu dur theke ase. Germany theke, Sweden theke. To apni ekbar gea pododhuli dea amader bachan. Ta apnar oi ek pododhulite amra aro lafie cholbo. Apni onumoti kore din, apni bole din. (When some big personalities, scientists . . . (indistinct) . . . queens, Queen Elizabeth. So she is the only one who goes and make them understand, this dancing . . . at our place throughout the day there are the practice of singing and dancing, all occupied. The Sanskrit that you will listen at my place, you haven't heard such Sanskrit pronunciation ever. So clear. We do this for Europe and America. Many from those places comes, many of our students comes from very far away places. From Germany, Sweden. You kindly come once and save us by putting the dust of your feet there. By just your one visit we will be highly encouraged. You grant your permission, you instruct them.) Prabhupāda: Apnar chele pule? (Do you have any children?) Dr. Ghosh: Amar ek chele bilete. Se BBC te kaj kore. Broadcasting. Or ekta nijer feature program ache - Question of faith. Se o khub bhokto. Se BBC te robibar 10:30 er somoi or ekta TV program thake. To okhane, okhane thake. Se sonnasi. Se bea tha kore ni. . . . (indistinct) . . . aar ei stri, amar jokhon haat pa bhenge jai. Amar ekta boro acciodent hoi. Amar haat pa nei. Sob lohar tukro tukro bose achhe. Aar ami ekta patient jokhon haspatale jachhilam, ekta gari dhakka mere fele dei . . . (indistinct) . . . to sei somoi uni Germanyr theke asen. Uni German noi, uni Bharotio. Germany te Indian government pathai, sekhanor jonno, amader Bharat natyam jake bole. Tarpore uni ese amar okhane, bolche tomar kach charbo na, tomar haat pa nei. To amake nea okhane gea amake chalie talie thik rakhe se. Aar amar to sara din kaj, gorib lokder kaj. Amra ekso teish jon lok nea arombho kori, 1948 sale. Ekhon amra dosh hazarer er besi lok, pach ta school. Or nijer o school achhe. Tateo ponchanno jon student, somosto bideshi. Tale ki hoi jibon amader bhoyanok kaje thakte hoi. (One of my son is staying overseas. He works in BBC. Broadcasting. He has his own feature program there, "Question of Faith". He is also a very good devotee. In BBC on Sunday 10:30 he has one TV program. So he stays there. He is a renunciate. He is not married . . . (indistinct) . . . and my wife, when I broke my hand and leg. I met with a big accident. I don't have my original hands and legs. Some iron pieces are inserted there. When I was going to a hospital with one of my patient, then one car hit me and threw me in the ground . . . (indistinct) . . . so at that time she came from Germany. She is not a German, she is Indian. Actually Indian government sent her to Germany, to teach dancing, what we call here Bharat natyam. After returning she came to my place. She said that she will not let me stay alone as I didn't have functional hands and legs. Then she took care of me and made me fit. I am to work for whole day, for poor people. We began with hundred and twenty three people in 1948. Now we are more than ten thousand people, five schools are there. She has one of her own school, there are fifty five student's in her school. All are foreigner. So in our life we are to remain busy with heavy workload.) Prabhupāda: Ha ha ha. (Yes, yes, yes.) *Dr. Ghosh: Aar amar boyesh to hoyei jachhe . . . (indistinct) . . . . tokhon jokhon sunlam je baba Prabhupāda aschen, tokhon mane no body can stop me now. Ta okeo likhechi Prabhupāda asben. To ekhane je apnader golmal. Ami oke nea aschilam apnake sonanor jonne. Somosto ostopate amader ekbar chomotkar, ostopath, puro Joydev songskrito, apni ekhane ese ekbar sonen. Amader e doya apnake kortei hobe. Amra jokhon eto seba korchi apnar jonne, apni ekbar payer dhulo din. Ekhon din thik kore din, ami sob bondo, je kore hok . . . (indistinct) . . . aar apnar sunun, ami to sob Jawaharlal Nehru bolun, somosto boro boro lok ami seba koerechi sob. Amar baritei sob ase. Indira Gandhi porjonto amar barite ese . . . aar apnar ekhane pododhulir jonne ami sob toiri kore bose achi, amake apnar payer dhulo ektu. Ami apnake, apni obak hoye jaben. Apni dekhben je apnar amader . . . ha ami to chole jabo porshu din sokalbela kalke Jonmastami kore. Amake adghonta ekdin, apnar somosto deho, ei Rolls-Royce gari apnar atto din choleche, oke ektu servicing dorkar. Apnar to dorkar nei, kintu apnake amader dorkar.To dekhun jodi Bhogoban kauke amar kache gari den, take jodi ami service na kori setao ekta pap. To apni jodi onumoti den, kichhu na, apni sudhu ektu suye thakben. Apni dekhun je Bhogoban kirokom chomotkar . . . (indistinct) . . . ami to ponchas bochor ei kaj korchi. Ponchas bochor. Ami . . . (indistinct) . . . 1947, 1927 e prothom MD, 2nd MD 31 e, Vienna. Tarpore dhorun ei ponchas sal dhore ei kaj e hochhe. Amar okhane sob, even Indira Gandhi thandi, ami jai na, ora amar okhane ese. Keno amar har, amra boli ostio pack. Har, muscle, ogulo, jegulo nurve gulo hochhe jhalie dei. Tate hoi ki dekhben apnar blood pressure thad presure sob sere jabe. (And my age is also increasing . . . (indistinct) . . . when I heard that Prabhupāda is coming, then you know no*-one can stop me now. I have written her also that Prabhupāda will come. But here in your place it's too disturbing. I was about to bring her so that you can hear. All our narration of Astapath, excellently done by us, Astapath, all Jayadev's Sanskrit, you go there are hear it once please. You must have to grant us this mercy. When we are serving you so much, you please visit there once. Now you schedule a date, I will arrange, by hook or by crook . . . (indistinct) . . . listen please, I have served all the big big personalities, like Jawharlal Nehru and others. They all come to my home. Even Indira Gandhi also came to my house . . . and for your visit I have made all arrangements, you please give us the dust of your feet there. I will show, you will be surprised. You will see that for you we . . . I will be leaving day after tomorrow morning after attending Janmastami festival tomorrow. Give me half an hour one day, all your body, your this body is like a Rolls-Royce car, it's running for so long, it needs little servicing. We know that you don't need that but we need you. So if God gives me someone's car and if I do not service it, that too is a sin. So if you kindly grant permission, it's nothing, you just have to lay down. You will see that how wonderfully God has . . . (indistinct) . . . I am doing this job for fifty years. Fifty years. I . . . (indistinct) . . . in 1947, no 1927 I got my first MD and second in 1931 at Vienna. Since then for last fifty years I am doing this job only. In my place everyone, even Indira Gandhi, I don't go to anybody's place, they come to me. Because on bone, we say ostio pack. Bone, muscle, all these and the nerves, I do rejuvenate them. As a result you will see, your blood pressure etc. all will be cured.) Prabhupāda: Ha apnar . . . (indistinct) . . . amar ei whole institute e ami ja bolbo ta hobe. Ami jodi morte boli, morbe. Ei je dictetorship, eta keno ora swikar korche? . . . (indistinct) . . . Uni ja bolchen eitai thik.Seta jodi hoi . . . (indistinct) (Yes your . . . (indistinct) . . . in my institute whatever I will say that is final. If I ask them to die, they will die. So this dictatorship, why are they accepting this? . . . (indistinct) . . . whatever he is saying that's actually correct. If that is the case . . . (indistinct) . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Amar o tai, apni ja bolchen tai thik. (Me too, whatever you are telling that's correct for me as well.) Prabhupāda: Seta jodi hoi, tahole to success hoye gelo. Ta na hole ekta . . . (indistinct) . . . Seta korte hole, . . . (indistinct) . . . yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā (SB 5.18.12) . . . (indistinct) . . . sudhu boktrita dea gele bipod . . . (indistinct) . . . Ta na hole loke dumre dumre dumre . . . (It it's so then success is achieved. Else some . . . (indistinct) . . . to do that . . . (indistinct) . . . Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā (SB 5.18.12) . . . (indistinct) . . . only to give lecture is dangerous . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise people will distort distort distort . . .) Dr. Ghosh: Amar o, ami jani seta. Amar opor apni dekhben bhoktir, nahole por oi jongoler moddhe jekhane athash sal thakchi. Nana rokom jongli, boro boro Ajogor sap nea amra bose achi. Kono bhoi nei. Kauke chini na. Sudhu gurur adesh. Jao tumi gea dekho, ora atto gorib amader. Ta apni dekhben je amader koto boro boro industry amra korchi. Hate toiri kora sob, amader oi jongoler lok sob toiri . . . (Mine also, I know that. You will see, devotion is on me, else in that forest I am staying for twenty eight years. There we are living with varities of forest dewellers, huge Pythons. We don't have any fear. We don't know anybody. Only the order of my guru —you go and stay there, they are so poor. You will be happy to see that we have made big big industries. All hand made things, those forest dewellers, they make all . . .) Prabhupāda: Hater e toiri, beshi kol kobjai na. (Handmade is good, don't use machines much.) Dr. Ghosh: Na na kolkobja noi. Ta holeo dekhun emon ekta somoi ese gache. (No no, not much machinery. Still you see such a time has come.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ghosh: Kol kobjar moddhe nei. Ta hole dekhun power na hole por chorka chole na. Tahole power station, nijeder station korte hoi ekta. Khub, apni dekhle, oi gobor dea e amra kori. (We are not into machines. Still you see without power the wheels don't move. In that case power station, we are to make our own power station then. Good if you see, we do it by using cow dung.) Prabhupāda: Self help. Dr. Ghosh: Ha? Gobor deai kori. Cow dung gas fas sob royeche . . . (indistinct) . . . aste aste. Emon kichu ekta birat byapar noi. Houar upai o nei. (What? We do it by cow dung. Cow dung gas is there . . . (indistinct) . . . gradually. It's not such a big thing. There is no scope also to make it big.) Prabhupāda: Na na, jinish ta hochhe, our life should be simplified. (No no, actually the thing is that our life should be simplified.) Dr. Ghosh: Absolutely. Prabhupāda: We shall not unnecessarily complication na. Dr. Ghosh: Amader to ekebare simple. Amra je bari ghor dor kori, sob chomotkar. Sokole bole khub bhalo, ekebare simple. Aar amra ekta gram korchi ekhon. (Ours are totally simple. The house that we make, all are wonderful. Everyone says those are very good, totally simple. Now we have made a village.) *Prabhupāda: Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya (BG 6.17). Dr. Ghosh: Minimum. Dignity bujhechen. (Minimun. Just a matter of dignity you see.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . find out this verse. *Devotee: Yukta*-ceṣṭasya karmaṇā ? *Prabhupāda: Where is Bhagavad*-gītā ? Dr. Ghosh: Apnar sob amar okhane ache. Ta apni ekdin kaj korun, ami ekhane apnar payer dhare bose thakbo, ami to norchi na. Ete ki ache. Apnar jodi ek ghonta somoi thake. Ami apnar jonne mane Amerika theke je, ekebare pobitro tel jeta hoi, mane jol, baby oil, baby der newborn baby der, rekhechi. Apnii ,amake ektu khani jodi . . . apni dekhben, amar tahole khub bhalo, amar khub bhalo haat. Apni bujhte parben. Aar apnar seba ami ektu korte chai morbar age. Dekhun parshod na thakle por, apnader ke bachie rakhbar moto lok nei. Amra sob apnar parshod sob. (All your books are there with me. You please do one thing, I will just sit beside your feet, I am not going to move anywhere. It's very simple. If you have one hour free time. From America I have arranged, totally sanctified oil and water, means water, baby oil, oil for newborn baby, I have kept with me. If you please just a little . . . you will see, I will feel good, my hands are very expert on this. You will realise. And before I die I wish to render some little service to you. See if associates are not there, no one is here to keep you alive. We all are your associates only.) Prabhupāda: Kripa kore amake rakhun.Din kotok kaj kori. (Please do protect me. Let me work for few more day's.) Dr. Ghosh: Dekhun parshod na thakle, Mohaprabhu Chaitanya sob, ora oke to, apnader sob rakhbar jonne prarthona korte hoi Bhogobaner kache. Dekhun apnar hochhe dos inchi pipe, amra hochhi one eighth inch pipe. Apnar je, je Bhogoban apnake or moddhe dea thele pathachhen, jara parshod tara to thik regulate kore rakhte hoi . . . (indistinct) . . . sei apni bhabun. Apni, ami jani, apnar kono chinta nei. (See, if associates are not there, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's all, for Him they, to keep you people alive prayrs are to be offered to the Lord. You are having a ten inch pipe, we are one eighth inch pipe. What your, what God is giving you, through you what God is pushing down, those who are the associates, they need to regulate the force . . . (indistinct) . . . so you please think over it. You, I know, you have nothing to worry about.) *Prabhupāda: Apni bolun, parshod bolte gele, kṛṣṇa*-varṇaṁ viṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam (SB 11.5.32), Parshadoi. (You say, to say about associates, kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam . Parshadoi , associates.) Dr. Ghosh: Eita eita eita amar khub bhalo lage. (This one I like very much.) *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa*-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgo upāṅgā pārṣadam yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Amra to parshoder upasona koe thaki. (We are the worshipper of the associates.) (chuckles) Dr. Ghosh: Na na, apni apni apni nijeke nije apni dekhen e ni, bhaben e ni. Amra jani apni ke. Parshoderai jane. Apni je bollen biswas koro. Ami jodi matha khureo jodi mori , ke aar biswas korbe? Apni bollen biswas koro, moro, more jabe. Era sob parshod. Apni jodi amake bolen, tumi more jao ekhane, ami more jabo. Sudhu apnar kothar jonne noi, kenona apni amra apnar parshod, apnake jibon dea apnake rakhte hoi. Ta na hole por monusso jatir upor kono . . . upai nei. Jekhan je Bhogobaner bikash, sekhane dekhben sob lok take bachie rakhbar jonne. (No no, you have not seen yourself, have not thought about it. We know who you are. Only associates knows. You told us to believe. If I, even if I try hard, who will believe me? You said—please keep faith. If you tell them to die, they will die. They are all associates. If you tell me, you die here, I will die. Not only for your words but because we are your associates, by sacrificing life you have to be protected. Otherwise on the human race nothing . . . no way. Were there is the manifestation of God, you will see many people sacrificing there to keep him alive.) *Prabhupāda: Bhagavaner upasona hoi sa*-parshod. (God's worship is done along with His associates.) Dr. Ghosh: Edike amar kan bhoyanok kala, tobuo apnar sob kotha ami sunchi. (Just see my ear is almost deaf and still I am able to hear all your words.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . Gopal. Go paal. (. . . (indistinct) . . . Gopal. Maintainer of the cow's.) Dr. Ghosh: Gopal oh. (Oh Gopal.) Prabhupāda: Mane jini Go ke palon koren. Tar parshod. Bhogobaner goru houa, o parshod chara hote pare na. Ei je Bhogoban emni kore alingon korche, e sadharon bachur? Do you think they are ordinary calves? (Means who maintains the cows. His associates. To become a cow of the Lord, without being an associate it's not possible. Here see how Lord is embracing, is it an ordinary calf? Do you think they are ordinary calves?) Mahāṁśa: To be embraced by Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: They are associates. They are associating with Lord as calf, as cow. Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ (BS 5.37). Nija-rūpa . Dr. Ghosh: Amar nijer rup dekheo bolben, Janama abadhi hamo rupo niharenu nayana na tiropito. Ei je ruper ekta khela cholche, lakho lakho yuga . . . (indistinct) . . . nu, tobu hiye juralu nayanu. Ei dekhun apnake dekhchi, aar kono dekhbar nei amar. Sob pash. Amra sob durer theke , kacher theke sob pash. Jonom jonom dhore dekhchi. (You are saying to see my own form, since birth I am seeing different forms but still my eyes are not satiated. That this game of form is going on, for millions of years . . . (indistinct) . . . by seeing you my eyes are satisfied.) *Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana, the calves, the cows, the trees, the land, the water—everyone, ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ . That is expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Cit-śakti . There are three energies: spiritual, material and marginal. So Vṛndāvana affairs means expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa . Sac-cid-ānanda. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Rasa , mellow. Everyone is trying to relish some mellow. Here in this material world we get family to taste some mellows. One kind of mellow is wife, one kind of mellow are children, one kind of mellow is the servants, one kind of mellow is the friends, one kind of mellow is the properties. They are all mellows, rasa . Unless there is some taste, why one should be hankering after all these things? Why one is hankering after some woman or some man or some friends or for children? One who has got no children, he's hankering after some child. He's expecting, "When I shall get a child?" The rasa . There is husband-wife rasa , but there is no rasa of the child. Therefore they are praying, "When we shall get a child?" So there is another rasa . So raso vai saḥ . He is the reservoir of rasas . So if we derive all the rasas from the Supreme, because He is the reservoir of rasas . . . *Mahāṁśa: Akhila*-rasāmṛta-sindhu . *Prabhupāda: Akhila*-rasāmṛta , yes. Akhila-rasāmṛta-sindhu . So you can have all the rasas , and that is the origin of bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu . In bhakti , that rasa , you become in the ocean of rasa . You're hankering after rasa . There is a Vedic injunction, raso vai saḥ labdhvānandi ānand ī. One who has got the rasa , labdhvānandi , then he gets the real ānanda . That ānanda-cinmaya-rasa expansion is Kṛṣṇa's calves, cows, gopī friends, cowherd boy friends, Nanda, Yaśodāmāyi, so many. So to be Kṛṣṇa conscious means to participate with these rasas. It is not dry. It is not dry, like, simply so 'ham , so'ham , finished. So 'ham , they do not know the meaning. So 'ham means I belong to the same rasa . I also eligible to enjoy the same rasa . But Kṛṣṇa is . . . (break) . . . and the calves, the cows are enjoying the rasa as predominated. Just like husband and wife, they are enjoying, both. But one is enjoying as the husband, predominator. The husband is forcefully dragging the wife. She's also . . . while she is dragged by force, she enjoys. That is another rasa. But there is rasa . Combined together it becomes rasa . Similarly, Kṛṣṇa does not enjoy this material. This material rasa is the perverted reflection of that cinmaya-rasa . So we have to get ourselves nil of all these material rasas , and we have to be situated in the cinmaya . Then our . . . ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Then our life is perfect. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Rasa is there. Here perverted reflection. The perverted reflection . . . my Guru Mahārāja used to say to taste milk in white, what is called, lime water. White lime water, it looks like milk. But it is not milk. It is different thing. Similarly, we are trying to taste the rasa of milk in lime water. Therefore we are baffled. Dr. Ghosh: That is true. Whole universe is rasa . Even in Mars they're trying to find humidity. What is humidity, rasa . Everything is moving on the rasa only. We are floating on rasa . Prabhupāda: Our aim of understanding this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not a sentiment. It is a great science, great science. Otherwise how we are writing so many books? If it was a dry . . . Dr. Ghosh: Nothing happens in dryness. *Prabhupāda: Why people are accepting our books? You'll be surprised, we are selling book to the extent of six lakhs of rupees per day. Daily. Daily we are selling six lakhs of rupees' worth all over the world. So people think philosophy, religion, dry subject matter. If it was dry subject matter, how they could purchase so many books? It is ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa . They are getting for the first time, here is real ānanda . Therefore they are appreciating. Everyone, learned circle, they are giving appreciation. In . . . (indistinct) . . . foreign circles. So, there was no such literature. It is the first time. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇaṁ vaiṣṇavānām . . . (SB 12.13.18). So unless they're really relishing some rasa, how they are purchasing? This is the first distribution of ānanda-cinmaya-rasa throughout the whole world, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So I am very happy that you are also very . . . (indistinct) . . . let us join together, we shall raise . . . Dr. Ghosh: We can consult and fix a date, what suits Prabhupāda best, then I will arrange for the rest at that end. Mahāṁśa: When are you leaving Hyderabad? Dr. Ghosh: I'm leaving just after . . . you see, I was leaving long ago, but he was coming. So I will leave 19th morning plane. That is the day after the Janmāṣṭamī tomorrow. Night, whatever festivity, I'll be here. I think there will be some saṅkīrtana also. After that, early morning, I'll catch the plane and go up to Madras, and there I shall fly again to my tila (my small hill top place). It is not very far, as you are thinking, but you know Kodaikanal is the, prithibir moddhe naki sobcheye bhalo jaiga, climatologically. Amar ichhe je amar ja kichu achhe apnar possessione dea, okhane era je kaj kormo korche gorome, majhe majhe gea ektu recharge. (Kodaikanal, supposedly it's the best place in the whole world, climatologically. I wish that whatever I have I will give those unto your possession, what these people are working here in such hot environment, they can visit there sometime to recharge.) Because they are recharging the battery of the urban line. But they also will be recharging that battery in a nice cosmic place. And that . . . Prabhupāda: Amader je rasa, our rasa, it can be tasted by the topmost intellectual man. (The rasa that we have, our rasa , it can be tasted by the topmost intellectual man.) Dr. Ghosh: Of course. Prabhupāda: And it can be tasted by the lowest . . . Dr. Ghosh: No intellect at all. I know that. *Prabhupāda: But why? Because this intellect, highest or lowest, that is in relationship with the body. But it is beyond the body. It is not . . . sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya (BG 14.26). It is beyond the three guṇas . The body is of the material guṇas—sattva , rajas , tamas . One man is good man, one man is passionate, one is foolish. Guṇa . Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo'sya . Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhunjante guṇān (BG 13.22)? (aside) Find out this. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhunjante . . . beginning with puruṣaḥ . Everything is explained, Bhagavad-gītā . *Dr. Ghosh: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is matchless. We are reading and re-reading, and every time we find much more, you see? Terrific. And you have put the simplest method—"As it is," as you say. Why complicate, tika this . . . that is why . . . you know, we can be safely called intellectuals. But, you know, we are tired of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ghosh: Tired. We cannot find anything. Neti neti vicāra te patra patra (sangskrit) . . . impossible. Then what do you get out of the life? The joy, rasa, apni je bollen, (The joy which you just have mentioned), that is the main substance. To get it you cannot get neti neti, Mohaprabhur ja hoyechilo . . . (indistinct) . . . (To get it you cannot get neti neti , what Mohaprabhu experienced . . . (indistinct) . . .) *Prabhupāda: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi (BG 13.22). (aside) Find out. Puruṣaḥ . Why you cannot find this verse? What you are . . . Mahāṁśa: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti , bhuñjante . . . *Prabhupāda: Tad guṇān. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi . You did not find? Dr. Ghosh: Eta apnar *Bhāgavatam* series na tinte volume? (Is this your *Bhāgavatam* series or just three volume?) *Prabhupāda: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Seventeen volumes. Seventeen. Dr. Ghosh: I have only two. Can I . . . is there any set available? I would like to buy the rest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: *Prabhupāda: Puruṣa , the living entity, he is now within the material energy. Prakṛti*-sthaḥ . Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho . . . *Mahāṁśa: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi . Prabhupāda: Stho hi . *Mahāṁśa: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān . Prabhupāda: On account of his being in touch with the material energy, he has to suffer or enjoy the modes of material nature. Modes of material nature, and because, just like in your medical science one is suffering from a certain type of disease on account of his being infected by the similar virus or . . . what is called? Mahāṁśa: Virus. Prabhupāda: Ha? Mahāṁśa: Virus. Prabhupāda: Virus. Dr. Ghosh: Virus. Animate in, apnader theory ami porechi. (Virus. Animate in, I have read your theory.) Now we know even the inanimate is animate, but by virology only it is changing. All the unanimate subject is slowly being transformed into animate. We are all convinced the whole process is the same. It's a terrific science now, virology. Latest, we have discovered. I am also working on virology quite a bit for all the virus disease and all. And we can eliminate them by only vacuum. My whole cure, they call it miracle and all this nonsense, it is only creating a vacuum which automatically takes away. Prabhupāda: This virology will be complete . . . Dr. Ghosh: When we accept this. Prabhupāda: . . . when you accept this. Dr. Ghosh: I know. (laughs) And I have accepted long ago. Because I felt, as a sincere worker, medicine doesn't interest me. What interests me is the cure. My profession is to cure, not to study the medicines. That is the cure. *Prabhupāda: Here it is very clearly stated that kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). The virology, infection, kāraṇam , that is the kāraṇam . Kāraṇam guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu . Why there are varieties of life? One is very intelligent . . . Dr. Ghosh: You know also in Vedic sangit , Tamasa bahurupena bestitaha karma hetu na . . . (indistinct) . . . sukha dukhha samanwita (Sanskrit). Prabhupāda: Same thing. Dr. Ghosh: Same thing, no? Everything has light. Only it is in transformation by that formula, it is inanimate to animate. That is what is happening all around us. *Prabhupāda: So, if from . . . just like medical science . . . it is also a medical science. Bhavauṣadhi. It is . . . auṣadhi means medical science. This is bhavauṣadhi . By this treatment one becomes relieved from the material disease. Bhavauṣadhi . Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra*-mano-'bhirāmāt . But the medicine is so nice that it is pleasing to the ear and to the heart. The medicine pleasing to the ear? What is that. *Mahāṁśa: Hari*-nāma . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Ghosh: Apni amader okhane cholun, amader o khub bhalo naam . . . (indistinct) . . . amader Bangali dhoroner sob amra korechi, amader recording e ache sob. Apnake sonabo. Apni khub anando paben. Amader ek family ache Mohana Nanda, tini Deoghar e thaken, tini ekhane ese amader record korie jan. Aar amar stri to saradin naach neai ache, Bhogobaner nach. Apnar khub bhalo lagbe, apni ektu. Aram noi, ekebare somadhir moddhe apni ese jaben. Cholun na, oder hukum kor din. (You please come to our place, we also have very good nama . . . (indistinct) . . . we have made it in Bengali style, in our recording everything is there. We will play for you. You will be very happy. We have one family named Mohana Nanda, he stays in Deoghar, he comes here and makes the recording. And my wife is busy all day with her dancing, for God. You will feel very happy, you please. Not only feel comfort, you will reach samadhi stage there. Please instruct them, let's go.) Prabhupāda: Jedin ora fix up korbe. (When they will fix up the date?) Dr. Ghosh: Ha? (What?) Prabhupāda: Ora jedin fix up korbe. (When they will fix up the date?) Dr. Ghosh: Ha oi je hukum. (Yes that is called order.) We decide a date, and take . . . not too . . . we have no means for having too many people, but about dozen people, or ten people can come. And they will have all facility. We can arrange a station wagon and everything there. You have to come up to Kodaikanal Road Station. And if you like we shall arrange for your departure from Madras . . . (indistinct) . . . Ami sathe. (I will be with you.) We will come with you. Apni . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda ke rekhe asben. We will accompany you all the way. Aapko aur Surana shab ko bol denge, aap dono . . . (indistinct) . . . le jayenge. Tahole choli. Apnake aar, apnake aar . . . apni ekdin hukum korun, apnar seba tahole okhanei apnake korbo. (I will accompany you. We will come with you. You . . . (indistinct) . . . take Prabhupāda to stay there. We will accompany you all the way. I will intimate you and Mr. Surana, you two . . . (indistinct) . . . will take you. Goodbye then. Your, your . . . you just order one day. Your service, I will serve you there then.) Prabhupāda: Ha ha. (Yes yes.) Dr. Ghosh: When you come there. Ekhane boddo golmal. (It's very noisy here.) I'll get everything ready. It is settled you are coming at there earliest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ghosh: Apni bole din kobe. (You tell me the date.) Prabhupāda: When they'll make a program, conveniently, I shall go. Dr. Ghosh: Ami, dekhiye. (I, you see.) I'm leaving on 29th morning. If you can give me a word by tomorrow evening. Not 29th; 19th. Today is 17th. Prabhupāda: They cannot decide so soon. Dr. Ghosh: : Janmāṣṭamīr pore? (After Janmāṣṭamī?) Prabhupāda: Janmāṣṭamī pore. (Yes after Janmāṣṭamī.) Dr. Ghosh: Apnar vyas pujar . . . (Your vyasa puja's . . .) Prabhupāda: Another program is that we are going that side during . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ghosh: Kanyakumari te jaben naki? Odike jaben naki? (Will you go to Kanyakumari? Will you go in that direction?) Prabhupāda: Ha. (Yes.) Dr. Ghosh: To cholun amra songe jabo. Amader barir kachei to. Palni te asun. Palni, Kentur khub bhalo area. Kumar. (Well we will also go with you then. It's near to our home. You go to Palni. Palni, Kentur, very good places, Kumar also.) So we have to see . . . (indistinct) . . . (background comments by devotees) You also send this. Mahāṁśa: Yes, I have to take little time. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Please come in. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda ki jaya . Prabhupāda: Give them little prasādam . Dr. Ghosh: Oder ekta din thik korte bole din. (Please tell them to fix a date.) Prabhupāda: Ha ora korlei ami chole jabo. (Yes once they fix a date I will go.) Gurukṛpā: He's a life member from Bangalore. He was one of our first members in South India. Prabhupāda: I saw you? Give them prasādam . Indian man: Last night at the airport. Prabhupāda: Give them prasādam . Devotee: They had prasādam . Prabhupāda: Aap idhar ka hi rehne wale hai? From Bangalore? (Do you stay here? Or from Bangalore?) Indian man (2): Hum Bangalore rehne wale hai. Aap bahut uttam kar rahe hai. Bhagawan ka prachar kar rahe hai. (I stay at Bangalore. You are doing a very noble job. You are preaching about God.) Prabhupāda: Iske bina to kuch janna nahi hai. (I don't know anything else than this.) Indian man (2): Ji Maharaj? (Yes Mahārāja?) Prabhupāda: *Without bhagavad*-bhakti , this so-called advancement of civilization is simply decorating the dead body. Indian man (2): Correct. Cent percent correct. Prabhupāda: What is the use of decorating the dead body? Indian man (2): Correct. Yes. We must decorate real . . . *Prabhupāda: And this body is . . . either dead or alive, Bhagavad*-gītā condemns: gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ (BG 2.11). So these rascals are interested with this body, and they're proud of their advancement of education. And Bhagavad-gītā says nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . So they are passing as great scientists, philosophers, politicians, philanthropists, but all apaṇḍitāḥ. Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . That means apaṇḍita . Indian man (3): : Apnar doya na hole ki kore hobe mosai? (Unless your mercy is there how can it be?) Prabhupāda: Ami to doya korbar jonne to sara duniya ghure berachi. (I am travelling all over the world to give mercy.) Indian man (3): : Ei to bolchi dhonnobad dilum apnake, khub beshi. (That's what I am saying, I am thanking you for that, a lot of thanks.) (laughter) *Prabhupāda: And the first thing of Bhagavad*-gītā lesson is that aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān (BG 2.11): "You are talking like a learned man, but you are rascal." Apaṇḍitaḥ . One who is not educated, he's a rascal. So He's indirectly saying: "This kind of lamentation is not for the paṇḍita . It is for the rascal." So whole world is interested with this body, and Bhagavad-gītā's teaching begins condemning the concept of body. Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ . Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Nobody knows this. And they are very learned scholars in Bhagavad-gītā . Indian man (3): : Ha ha, apnar doya holei to learned bola jai, nahole ki kore bola jai? (When you shower your mercy then one can become learned, otherwise how can one be said as learned?) *Prabhupāda: All these rascals, they're claiming to be learned scholar of Bhagavad*-gītā . Indian man (2): Anyhow, humlog, We are lucky souls, that we are surrendered souls. (Anyhow, we, we are lucky souls, that we are surrendered souls.) Prabhupāda: Ha, humko sab miljhul karke, ye jo andolon hai isko achhi tara se samhalna. (Yes, we all will come together and this movement that is going on, we have to maintain it nicely.) Indian man (2): Correct. Prabhupāda: Yeh to akele . . . (I am alone . . .) Indian man (2): Nahi nahi Bhagwan ka ichha hai , sab ka duty hai . . . (No no, It's the Lord's will, all of us have responsibility . . .) Prabhupāda: Whatever is done, it is by single man's effort. If all our actually leaders, they take up, then India will be glorified. They'll feel . . . yes, they're expecting. Outside India, people, they expect that there is something better knowledge in India. Therefore as soon as some svāmīs or yogī goes there, they come. But they cheat. Indian man (2): Many have come to cheat. Prabhupāda: These rascals, I shall say that, sir, they do not know anything, and they go there for teaching yoga . And they are bogus. Indian man (2): Bogus, bogus. So many bogus people are going. Prabhupāda: They do not know what is yoga . Indian man (2): They do not know what is what. What that is truth. They don't know. Prabhupāda: And they get cheap money and women and that's all. That is their business. Indian man (2): Aap Bharat ko ashirbad kariye. Iha Bhagabat dharma, Sanatan dharma ka prachar khub beshi hoye. (You shower your blessings upon India. Let the Bhagavad dharma , Sanatan dharma be spread extensively here.) Prabhupāda: Aap log sab . . . (indistinct) . . . join kijiye, dekhye na abhi Bharat ka chehara badal jayega. (You all . . . (indistinct) . . . you join this movement, just see the face of India will change.) Indian man (2): Badal jaye to achhi bat hai. Abhi to . . . (If it get's changed then it will be very good. But now . . .) Prabhupāda: Jaroor jayega. (Surely it will change.) Indian man (2): Ha, jaroor jayega. (Yes, it will surely change.) Prabhupāda: Kyun ki Bharat abhi bhoola nahi. (Because India still haven't forgotten.) Indian man (2): Nahi. Yeh to Bhagawan ka bhoomi hai. (Yes. This is the land of the Lord.) Prabhupāda: Yeh jabardasti isko bhulaya ja raha hai. (Now people are made to forget forcibly.) Indian man (2): Haan, Bhagwan ka bhumi hai. Yeh to politician log ghuma rahe hai isko. (laughs) Bhagwan ka bhumi hai ye. (Yes, this is the land of the Lord. Only these politician's are making things distorted. (laughs) This is the land of the Lord.) Prabhupāda: To ab ek. . . (indistinct) . . . karke Hari kirtna kijiye. Gao gao me. (So you do one thing . . . (indistinct) . . . perform Hari kirtana . Village to village.) Indian man (2): Apne paas bhi Thakur bari hai, swami Yashonand dekha hai . . . (indistinct) . . . kuch dharam hai. (At my place also there is a temple, Swami Yashonand have seen . . . (indistinct) . . . we are also religious.) *Gurukṛpā: He has a temple. The whole third floor of his house is a temple. He has Sītā*-Rāma, Kṛṣṇa, Gopāla. He has big temple. They have saṅkīrtana every night. Every morning and night. Indian man (2): Hamare Guruji to Vrindaban ke, aap jante hai. Rang Ji ke bari bagiche me rehte the. Jagad Guru swami Raghunath acharya. Aap to jante hai, Vrindaban gaye hai aap bhi. (My guru is from Vṛndāvana, you might be knowing. He stays in the big garden of Rang Ji. His name is Jagad Guru Swami Raghunath Acarya.) Prabhupāda: Mai to Vrindaban me hi raha. Abhi Radharani humko bhagaya. (I was staying in Vṛndāvana only. Then Radharani made me run.) Indian man (2): Bhaga diya! Radharani ka prachar karna hai to bhagayega ji. (Oh she made you run! Of course Radharani will make you run to preach about her.) (laughter) Prabhupāda: Ho giya. (Now it's done.) Indian man (2): Bhag giya tab hi to achha hua. Aab to lakho ka uddhar hoga, lakho ka. Uha baithe rehte tab to lakho ka nahi hota. Yaha to lakho ka uddhar hoga. Sare dunia ka ho raha hai. (You ran away then only such a good thing have happened. Now millions will be saved, millions. Had you been sitting there then millions could not have been saved. Now millions will be saved. It's happening all over the world.) Prabhupāda: Isiliye to, uo Radharani bhaga bhi deta hai. (That's why I am saying, sometime Radharani can make you run also.) Indian man (2): Bilkul bilkul. Mahatma ka shrap bhi asirvad hota hai. Radharani to prem hai. Uo to Ma hai. Ma to bete ko achha ke liye bhejta hai. Bahut sundar karya ho raha hai. Humko to bahut santosh hai, bara anand hai. (Of course, of course. The curse of a saintly person is actually a blessing. Radharani is love. She is the mother. For the benefit of the son, the mother sends her son away. Now such wonderful activities are going on. I am highly satisfied, very happy.) Gurukṛpā: That Raṅganātha temple is that temple where they do not allow us in. So Sampat Kumar and all of these paṇḍitas , they will sign one letter trying to request them, also with the Purī people, to request them to let us in. While they are all here they will do that. Also Sampat Kumar was thinking that in November and December in South India the weather is nice because the rainy season is finished, and it would be a very good time to go and visit many of the temples. He personally knows many people in all the big temples: Shri Rangam, Kañcipuram, Mahabalipuram, Tirupati. They could arrange for receptions and programs. *Prabhupāda: Hum abhi tak Bharat varsh ka divya bhumi ka dekha nahi. Hum ghar chor kar ke Vrindavan me ake baith gaya. Fir Vrindavan se Amerika chala gaya. (Until now I haven't totally seen the divine land of Bhārata*-varṣa. After leaving home I went to Vṛndāvana and was sitting there. Then from Vṛndāvana I went to America.) Indian man (2): Amerika chala gaya. (He went to America.) Indian man (3): : Vrindavan me to . . . (indistinct) . . . (In Vrindavan . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian man (2): Amerika jana nahi to agga hua, yea sab jaga prachar karne ke liye bhej diya . . . (There was order to go to America, he was sent to preach all over the world . . .) Indian man (3): : . . . (indistinct) sanskrit . . . Indian man (2): Amrit hai Bhagwan, amrit . . . (God is nectar, nectar . . .) Indian man (3): : . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): Yeh to zahar hai dunia . . . (indistinct) . . . dunia is a poison. God is amritam.. . . (indistinct) . . . Just opposite na. Das koti ashirbad kariye aap ke charno ki . . . (This world is poison . . . (indistinct) . . . world is poison. God is nectar . . . (indistinct) . . . they are just opposite. Please bless me ten million times with the dust of your feet . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . iska bandobast karie. (. . . (indistinct) . . . please arrange for this.) Indian man (2): Ji. Oh to ho raha hai. Yes sab keya ho raha hai Maharaj? Ye to sab bandobast ho raha hai, nahi. (Yes sir. That is already happening. What all this activities are meant for Mahārāja? All these are that arrangement only.) Prabhupāda: Lekin yeh to mushkil hai, to iha do char mahina lega na, Government . . . (But there is difficulty, if it takes few months here then government . . .) Indian man (2): Government ka thoda abhi policy, aap ashirbad karie to . . . (The policy of the government now somewhat unfavorable, if you shower your blessings then . . .) Prabhupāda: Is waje se, isliye, jab tak Bharat ke log . . . (indistinct) . . . (That's why, until the people of India . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian man (2): Politics nahi, government jo hai na, bhakt bane hai, tab tak. (Not about politics, the government that is here, let them become devotee, till then . . .) Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi, government ka baat nahi hai. Bolta hai ki yeh jo prachar karjo, jabtak Indian log, samajh rahe hai na. Yeh mushkil se bahar se ate hai . . . (indistinct) . . . (No no, it's not about government. I am saying that this preaching activity, until Indian people, are you getting my point. These people comes from outside with difficulty . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian man (2): Nahi, karenge. Aap ke ashirbad hai inke upar haat hai to sab kam hoga. (Yes, we will do. Your blessings are there, you have kept your hand upon him, so everything will happen.) Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi aap sunie na. (No no, you please listen.) Indian man (2): Ji ji. (Yes sir.) Prabhupāda: Jaise yeh log sahajog karte hai. (The way these people (foreigners) are cooperating.) Indian man (2): Ha, sab log karenge. (Yes, all will do.) Prabhupāda: Indian log karte . . . (Had Indian people also . . .) Indian man (2): Karenge, milke karenge. (They will also do, we will do it together.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Indians, they are not coming. Intelligent, educated Indians, they are not coming . . . (indistinct) . . . Boliye sabko, aap log milke samjhaie. (You tell everyone, convince them together.) Indian man (2): Swamiji bolte hai ki sabko samjhaiye, jab Bharat me baithe hai . . . (Swamiji is telling that we should tell everyone, when we are sitting in India itself . . .) Prabhupāda: Ha, especially South Indians. (Yes, especially South Indians.) Indian man (2): Ha, inko samjhake . . . (Yes, to make them understand . . .) Prabhupāda: South Indian. Indian man (3): : Jo bhi inke sath milke kam hi hai. (Whatever it may be, the job has to be done with them together.) Prabhupāda: There, still their Indian original culture is still there in South India. Other parts of India, they are not now . . . (indistinct) Indian man (3): : Correct. South India . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): Swamiji bolte hai iha ka bhi aap prachar kariye. Sabko pakarke inke sath milake is karya ko badhana chahiye . . . (indistinct) . . . yeh iha ka sabse bara . . . (indistinct) . . . south India ka. To yeh , agar isme bhag liya to sab kam ho jayega. (Swamiji is saying that you people also began preaching here. Get everyone and bring them together and spread the preaching activity . . . (indistinct) . . . he is the biggest . . . (indistinct) . . . of south India. If he takes part in this then all the job will be accomplished.) Prabhupāda: Isliye to aapko bol raha hu. Indian our American milkar kam karenge. (That's why I am telling you people. Both Indian and American will have to work together.) Indian man (2): Milkar kam karenge. (We will work together.) Prabhupāda: To isse bada asar parega, prabhab parega. (Then there will be great effect, good influence will be there.) Indian man (2): Jaroor prabhab parega. (Of course it will have influence.) Prabhupāda: Yeh to hai, aap Indian ko bulaiye. Sab mil kar ke gao gao me jaye.Ye jo bus hai hum log ka . . . (indistinct) . . . kahi bhi gao me giya, baith giya. Bhagawan ka murti hai, seba puja hoga, uha prasad bitaran hua . . . (indistinct) . . . (These people (foreigners) are here, you bring the Indians. Let them go villege after villege together. We have bus with us . . . (indistinct) . . . any time visit a villege and sit there. God's Deity is present, so worship and service will happen, then prasadam serving also will be done . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian man (3): : Har gao me jayega? (Will they go to every village?) Indian man (2): Ha, nahi bus me baithke sab le jayenge, prachar karenge. (No, they will take everyone by bus and will be preaching there.) Prabhupāda: Ha. Yeh to mazood hai . . . (indistinct) . . . jada nahi, ek dafa inka , ek dafa unka. Abhi arrangement kijiye. Ye log ko bhi mazood hai. Abhi kuch din me aa jenge. Achha sikshit. (Yes. These people are here . . . (indistinct) . . . not too much, once their turn then next time others. Please make the arrangements now only. These people are present here. Within few days they will come. Well educated.) Indian man (2): Ji ji. (Yes, yes.) Prabhupāda: Jo samajh sake. (Who will be able to make them understand.) Indian man (2): Bilkul. (Very true.) Prabhupāda: To, dekhiye abhi to hum . . . (So you see, now we . . .) We have got buses. We have got buses—two, three. Any number of. It is very simple method, that we combine together, Indian and foreigners. Go in buses. Kahi bhi baithe. Kahi bhi baithe. (You may sit anywhere. You may sit anywhere.) Indian man (2): Bhagawan sarbatra hai, sab uska hi seba karna hai. (God is present everywhere, we all are supposed to serve Him.) Prabhupāda: Bhagwan ka murti hai. Seva puja hua, bhog hua, sabko prasad dijiye. Bas dekhiye keya hua. Yeh log to majood hai, aap log kuch le aiye, abhi kam suru hoga. (We have a Diety of the Lord. Worship and service will happen, bhoga offering will be done, distribute prasada to all. Then you see what happens. These people are already present here, you bring some people, we will begin the work now.) Indian man (2): Karenge maharaj. (We will do it Mahārāja.) Prabhupāda: Koi mushkil nahi. (It's not at all difficult.) Indian man (2): Nahi karte hai. Bangalore ate hai, jitna ho sakte hai, hum log bhi karte hai. (Yes let's do it. Let's go to Bangalore, as much as possible, we will also try to do.) Prabhupāda: Now it should be organized movement. This is simply . . . Indian man (2): Aap bhi ek dafa Bangalore ane ki kripa kariye. (You also please visit Bangalore once.) Prabhupāda: Ha, jaroor jayenge. (Of course, I will go.) Indian man (2): You must also come in Bangalore once. Then it will be all . . . Prabhupāda: Iska. (Regarding this issue) Immediately think over that these Europeans, Americans are there. Now take up the association of another, at least one dozen . . . (indistinct) . . . Indians, and let us go together, gao to gao (village to village) . . . what do you think about it? Indian man (2): Bas achha hi hoga, Bhagwan ka prachar hoga. Sab jaga nam kirtan hoga. (It will be good, God's preaching will happen. Everywhere there will be nama kirtana .) Yaśodānandana: We could go from Madras . . . Prabhupāda: Anywhere. Indian man (2): Anywhere. Any village. All the villages . . . Prabhupāda: You start from anywhere and go anywhere and sit down and chant. Indian man (2): Sab bhoomi ko . . . (All the land . . .) *Prabhupāda: In India, Bhārata*-bhūmi jaha hari-kīrtana sunega, (In India, land of Bharata, whenever people will here hari kirtana ,) thousands will come. That is India. You won't have to advertise that, Indian man (2): No, rom rom me hai. (No, it's in every pore.) *Prabhupāda: "There is hari*-kīrtana . Come." No. As soon as you begin, immediately thousands. As soon as there will be sugar grain, immediately ants will come. Indian man (2): Ants will come. Prabhupāda: It is like that. This is a fact. Indian man (3): : Correct, correct. Hundred per cent correct. Bas jaha mridang baja sab log aa jayenge kirtan karte. (As soon as the sound of mrdanga will be heard, all the people will come to take part in kirtana .) Prabhupāda: Ye jo Bharat bhumi me janma hota hai. (When one takes birth in the land of Bharata.) Indian man (2): Bilkul. (Very true.) Prabhupāda: Ye Bhagawat me hai aap to jante hai, Debta log prarthana karte ki kuch humara punna agar rahe geya to humko Bharat me janme. (This is in Bhagavat , you might be knowing, demigods are praying that if we have some pious credit left then let us take birth in the land of Bharata.) Indian man (2): Bharat me janma de. Bharat ke to rom rom me Bhagwan hai, usme keya. (Let us take birth in Bharata. In every particle of Bharata, God consciousness is there—there's nothing strange in it.) Indian man (3): : Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā . Prabhupāda: Iska bandobast kijiye. (Please make arrangements for this.) Immediately. Just get one dozen good—I mean, good or bad, it doesn't matter—who is ready to work for this purpose. And our men are ready. Our buses are ready. So let us go. There is no question of selecting place. Anywhere. Anywhere. Indian man (3): : Any place, anywhere, all the places. Prabhupāda: You go and find out some good place for camping and begin kīrtana . Get down from the bus and begin kīrtana . Then all friends will come immediately. They will offer shelter, they will offer food—everything. Indian man (2): Ha yeh to Bharat ki parampara, chali ati hai sadi se. (Yes this is the tradition of Bharata, going on for ages.) Prabhupāda: One thing is that their difficulty is language. Indians are there, they can speak on the local language. Indian man (2): They can explain everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore wanted. Indian man (2): Swamiji Bhagwan ki seba ke liye to hum log aye hai chinta nahi. (Swamiji, we have come for the service of the Lord, you please don't worry.) Indian man (3): : Chinta kahe ko hai? (Why there will be worry?) Indian man (2): Swamiji to sabka leader hai. (Swamiji will be the leader for all.) Indian man (3): : (indistinct) . . . Tirupati me jake, Tirupati me Balaji ka darshan, Padmavati ka darshan, oha sare jake, Bhagwan ka darshan le karke, oha bhi bhajan our kirtan karke . . . (. . . (indistinct) . . . going to Tirupati, taking darshan of Balaji there and taking darshan of Padmavati, going there and taking darshan of their Lordships, doing bhajan and kirtan there . . .) Yaśomatīnandana: In Vaikuṇṭha Ekādaśī. In Shri Rangam they have this giant festival every year, the biggest festival in India. It's Vaikuṇṭha ekādaśī in December. Indian man (2): Last December we went there. *Yaśomatīnandana: Very big. November*-December is a very good time. Indian man (2): Apni Ranga Ji dekhechen? (Have you taken darshan of Ranganath?) Prabhapuda: Na. (No.) *Yaśomatīnandana: Kanchi*-puram. Baradrāj. Indian man (2): From here. Sidha south pura. (Straight to all in the South) . . . (indistinct) . . . up to Cape Comorin. Yaśomatīnandana: Ahobila, Tirupati Indian man (3): : Yes, all of them, all of them. Yaśomatīnandana: He knows all the places . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): This is the original birth, Shri Rangam. Prabhupāda: Now with Suraji's cooperation make a program. *Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, we will do like that. November*-December will be very suitable time. Then in January, the Kumbha-melā, we will try to organize something big there also. January, Allahabad, Kumbha-melā Prabhupāda: 26 aadmi . . . (26 people) . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): Hum log gaye the pura south India . . . (We had gone to the whole south India . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man (2): Inko bhi le jayenge sab. Karenge , prachar. (Will take him also with us. Will preach.) (pause) Indian man (2): Bas aap ki ashirbad hum log leke chalenge. Sab achha hoga. (We will go ahead with your blessings, Everything will be good.) (pause) Prabhupāda: That's all. Stop now. Harikeśa: I was just going to say you should take massage now. Prabhupāda: Ha? Harikeśa: I was just going to say it's time for massage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Can I tell you about the bank? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Punjab National Bank is down the street, and we have our temple account there. Prabhupāda: Oh, Punjab National Bank is there. That's all right. Harikeśa: So how much do you want to deposit? Prabhupāda: That I have to count. Harikeśa: So we can do it any time. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Harikeśa: And before you arrange this Kumbha*-melā—it's very cold there. Prabhupāda: Don't talk now. Harikeśa: Okay. (long pause) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Everything is going on. Wood carving, cement lay, painting, marble polishing. The yajña . Prabhupāda: If we would have remained there . . . these people are coming. How they could see? . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Still, it would have been very quiet. Prabhupāda: We are not . . . (indistinct) . . . besides that, we don't want quietness. We want how many are . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Jaya . If you wanted quietness, you could have stayed in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Conversation A -- August 19, 1976, Hyderabad (Conversation About Mayapura Construction) Gargamuni: . . . to keep it going we took a minimum amount of ten thousand a month. We were getting ten thousand a month. But to finish the building we require more, more per month, because ten thousand is just the most minimum amount just to keep it going. Prabhupāda: So you are collecting? Gargamuni: Yes, but that is going for maintenance. I give twenty thousand a month now. Prabhupāda: Maintenance, twenty thousand? Gargamuni: Well, that includes agriculture, the gurukula —everything. It includes everything. Jayapatākā: Actual maintenance, about eight or ten thousand. Other things, landscaping and other things . . . Gargamuni: Landscaping . . . we built you a very wonderful park, very nice park. We've also put a walkway around the ghāṭa with stairs. Prabhupāda: Now, what is the position of our big project? Jayapatākā: That's what I was going to tell you first. So what happened was that the application we had given to the Chief Secretary and the Board of Revenue, that had gone from them to Mr. Choudhuri, who in turn had sent it on to the Commissioner. The Commissioner sent to District Magistrate. The Commissioner sent to the District Magistrate. So District Magistrate, he gave a favorable reply. Prabhupāda: He has given? Jayapatākā: Favorable reply. He said that, "This is a good project. It will help the district." He only said that they should maybe get 300 acres instead of 350, or like that. He reduced something. Then it went back again to the Commissioner, who was a Christian. He's the one I mentioned. He wrote bad report. Then when Choudhuri got it, he wrote a very good report. He wrote a very good report. He said that there's no question of Hindu or Muslim. Just like in Bangkok they have that one big Viṣṇu Temple. That is a . . . or the Taj Mahal. This is no longer any type of religious . . . this is for all mankind. Similarly, this Māyāpur will be a monument for the whole mankind. Prabhupāda: For the whole world. Jayapatākā: For the whole world. So in this way he gave a very good, very good statement. Then that went to the Chief Secretary again, who had to give it to the Chief Minister. So the Chief Minister, he does not have a good opinion. He did not have a good opinion of our Society. Prabhupāda: Who is the Chief Minister? Jayapatākā: Siddhanta Shankaraya. Prabhupāda: He is very expert man. *Jayapatākā: He's a very expert . . . he's one of their chief politicians from India. He used to be Education Minister of Indira Gandhi. He's one of her right*-hand men. Gargamuni: Very important for Bengal. Bengal is the most important state, and he has very prominent position to the Prime Minister as advisor. Jayapatākā: So at that time, I couldn't write him a letter. He had written that . . . something which made Mr. Choudhuri very angry. He wrote something which made Mr. Choudhuri very angry. Made also the Chief Secretary angry. He wrote . . . Gargamuni: No, who wrote? Jayapatākā: The Chief Minister wrote. He said, "Because of the impassioned . . ." He said: "I would have refused this application except for the impassioned appeal of one of my senior officers, namely Mr. Choudhuri. They are asking for three hundred acres of land, but the East India Company, they asked only twenty acres of land, and they have conquered the whole of India." (loud kīrtana in background) Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: "East India Company, they have asked only twenty acres of land, but they have conquered the whole of India." Gargamuni: "They ruled India for two hundred years." Jayapatākā: Oh. "Ruled India for two hundred years." Prabhupāda: Who said? Chief Minister? Gargamuni: The Chief Minister wrote that the East India Company purchased twenty acres of land and ruled India for two hundred years. That was his reply to our application. Prabhupāda: Chief Minister said? Gargamuni: Yes. They're afraid that by taking this, we will rule India. Jayapatākā: Anyway, that's a very frivolous statement. That was a frivolous statement. Prabhupāda: No, that, ruling over India, they politically ruled. Jayapatākā: But we're not politicians. Prabhupāda: Even if we are rule, we shall rule spiritually. We have nothing to do with politics. Jayapatākā: That's the point. That's why even the Chief Secretary, he became . . . Gargamuni: They didn't take it seriously. The Chief Secretary and Mr. Choudhuri did not take that very seriously, that comment. Jayapatākā: It didn't end there. Gargamuni: It's a frivolous comment. Jayapatākā: It's progressed. That's one month ago. Since then it's progressed. Then he said, "Let there be more inquiry on the nature of the Society and its source of funds, etc . . ." In the meantime, many people had come and inquired about our Society—CID, CI . . . Gargamuni: Also the industrial . . . one industrial from the . . . they want to know how we will arrange for so many work for so many people. I met them there. They want to know, "How will you get everyone to work?" They sent . . . many, from many different governmental departments, came, inquiring, "How you will do this?" And they all went away satisfied. We showed them the handloom; we showed them the gośālā , we showed them the children. Even Tarun Kanti Ghosh, he came, and we lined up fifty children, and they read the Gītār Gān , and he almost started crying. He liked it so much. He said: "Oh, you have done so nicely with the children." So they were impressed with the work. Jayapatākā: So at that time Mr. Choudhuri, he was put down. But he said: "I have not yet lost hope." He said, but he was put down a bit. That night personally talked to the Minister of Nadia, Anandamoy Visvas, who I personally met last year. And he was telling him that for Nadia he should sponsor this. Even the negative political issue with the Chief Minister, he should push it through. In the meantime, I wrote an application to Tarun Kanti Ghosh, who up to now we hadn't asked. Because it had already passed all the preliminaries. And I went and spoke to him. I told him that, "It has already passed all the government stages. Now simply the Chief Minister has to be convinced." He said: "No, no. You are of good integrity. There is no doubt about ISKCON. I will immediately tell him." He called up the Chief Secretary. The Chief Minister was out then. Later on he talked to Chief Minister. The next time I saw Mr. Choudhuri . . . before that, he told me . . . that's when he told me that, "Maybe Prabhupāda should see the Chief Minister." Now he said it's not necessary. He liked your reply to them. After that, I saw Mr. Tarun Kanti Ghosh. Then I saw Choudhuri again a week later. At that time he said: "Now everything is changed." He said: "Now the Chief Minister, that problem is solved." He has written that, "Let Mr. Choudhuri take the decision. Let him take the decision. But I cannot simply take the decision. They'll say I am biased. I must work in the ordinary ways of the government. But there is no trouble now. You have waited so long. You wait another thirty or sixty days." He said: "Wait another sixty days, and then you'll get it." Prabhupāda: When he wrote? When he wrote this? Jayapatākā: He spoke to me just two weeks ago. Two weeks ago. Then, last week, again I saw him just before Janmāṣṭamī. I asked him . . . then I gave him invitation to Janmāṣṭamī. At that time he told me that . . . after was this bad publicity. He told me, "Now this bad publicity, I think it has given us some benefit." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, could you give darśana over here later? They've all been waiting for your darśana . Gargamuni: Hey, wait a minute. We're talking about Māyāpur. We're talking about Māyāpur. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: Is there . . .? Is there necessity? Gargamuni: There's no necessary. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. But we had you down on schedule for a lecture. So I said that you're not lecturing, but they just wanted to have a look at you. Later we can have . . . Prabhupāda: Tomorrow I shall. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Tomorrow. Okay. Prabhupāda: Tomorrow I shall lecture. Gargamuni: Go ahead. *Jayapatākā: Now, just a few days ago, when I invited him for Janmāṣṭamī, then I asked him what the . . . he told me at that time, he said: "Now . . ." He had recently received a phone call from the Chief Secretary. "You see? Now your favorite project is going to be spoiled." Then he went over to see the Chief Secretary. He showed him an article from the Rāja*-Sabhā , how the member of Parliament had given this challenge that, "Are these people CIA or this or that?" Then Mr. Choudhuri said: "Sir, I am not afraid." He said: "Why not?" "Because I have you, don't I?" Then the Chief said: "Yes. You have won me over. I believe in this project." Then he said that now the Chief Minister has agreed that the project be sanctioned. But he said that, "I don't want to take the full brunt of the decision. Let the Nadia District Planning Committee take the decision." Prabhupāda: Nadia? Jayapatākā: District Planning Committee. So the head of the Nadia District Planning Committee is that minister, Anandamoy Visvas. So I went to him, and I gave him an invitation for the Janmāṣṭamī. When I saw him, then . . . you gave me that letter. So I showed him that letter where you have said that, "Every day we're selling sixty thousand dollars' of books, and I thank you for helping me." I said: "Sir, we are simply doing Prabhupāda's order. This is not our work. It is not a foreign work. It is his work; we are simply doing it. He is selling so many books that he wants to invest some of the money to develop Mahāprabhu's birth site. That is all. He has got the money. Why he should not invest it?" He said: "I am going to have a meeting of the committee next week, and I'm going to push your project through. We're going to pass it." That is the last word I heard. So it looks that everything is very good right now . . . but we have to keep our Society very pure, because they're investigating us very strong. All the time they're having people watching us. Gargamuni: There is now in Māyāpur . . . the talk is, there's some special advisors to the Prime Minister are in Māyāpur now investigating to make sure. *Jayapatākā: Some of the local people that were working with me, getting petitions, they came and told me that some people from Delhi or outside were inquiring about us, about Bhavānanda Goswami, about Jayapatākā, about this project, about how the devotees are dealing with the public, whether we are doing any anti*-Indian work. All sorts of questions they are asking. So it's very important that we keep very up-and-up right now. All the time. But otherwise the government, they are happy with our work. And so far, Mr. Choudhuri said, other people have indicated that they have found no bad report about our Society, although they are looking so hard. Therefore they are passing. Gargamuni: The State government is very favorable. But the doubt, of course, is coming from the central government because they don't know us. But the state government, they are very favorable. Everyone we've met within the State, they like us very much. They like the Society, they like your work, and, of course, they like your books. Jayapatākā: The local police intelligence officer in Krishnagar, when I went to see him, he told me, Ami tomake bharatiya nagarik kore dicchi. Ami kore dicchi. (I am making you an Indian citizen. I am making you.) Like that, he told me. "Definitely I make you an Indian citizen." So they are favorable. I don't know how much they can do, but locally they are favorable. Gargamuni: Now on the weekend we have tours of the building. Many groups of people come. Fifty in a group sometimes, to come and visit. Prabhupāda: Tourists. Gargamuni: Yes, tourists, and we take them on tour of the building. That's Subhaga. He takes them on tour and he gives some preaching. So many people are coming. Prabhupāda: Subhaga is in charge of that? Gargamuni: Yes, he does. Jayapatākā: Others are there also. One new boy is very good. He's . . . Gargamuni: Kiśora. Jayapatākā: Kiśora dāsa. He's also translating. He's a little more strong than Subhaga, although new. Very good boy, very humble. He's from a good family also. Prabhupāda: What is the flood situation? Jayapatākā: Flood situation . . . Gargamuni: Very mild monsoon this year. Almost drought. Almost. Very mild. Very little rain. Prabhupāda: Rain is not very strong. Gargamuni: No. The monsoon is not strong. Jayapatākā: Our aus (a type of rice) crop has been hampered because of lack of rain and early monsoon. Only in the past week there's been a little rain. Otherwise, before, there was very little rain. Not fully drought . . . Gargamuni: But less rain than previous years. Jayapatākā: Everything is very green and nice, but so far as agriculture is concerned . . . Prabhupāda: It requires more rain. Jayapatākā: It requires more rain and early tide. Right now the river is full, but it is not flooding. It is full. See, Mr. Choudhuri, he was interested. At that time when the Chief Minister wrote that, then he wrote this, that "If you were to see the Chief Minister, then this type of letter could be submitted and he would definitely see you," although it is not necessary to see him. Prabhupāda: Do you think it is? Jayapatākā: No, it's not necessary to personally see him. You might write . . . when you come to Māyāpur we'll write him invitation that he can come and see and visit you there. That was better. Mr. Choudhuri said that, "Your Guru Mahārāja, he has also got the Vaiṣṇava pride not to see the politicians." He said: "This is a good stand. I respect this very much." Actually he mentioned once to Abhirāma confidentially that, "If this project comes through, then you'll be requiring some liaison officer, because there will be so many government things. At that time I can work for you as your permanent advisor and go to Delhi and here and there and do all the work." I think he wants a job. Prabhupāda: I thought that Mr. Choudhuri would do everything, but that is not the position. Jayapatākā: Almost he is doing everything. Actually he's trying to say that he did everything. But I think that when we saw Tarun Kanti Ghosh, that cleared up . . . that matter with Chief Minister, that cleared that up. As far as the other lower secretary men are . . . Mr. Choudhuri did everything. The Chief Minister doubt, I think Tarun helped clear that up. That's the only thing that he couldn't change the mind of is the Chief Minister. Otherwise he did everything else, almost, you can say. Gargamuni: He came on the last ekādaśī . Just last ekādaśī , what, ten days ago? Seven days ago he came for the ekādaśī to Māyāpur just to see. Prabhupāda: Who? Gargamuni: Tarun Kanti Ghosh. He took prasādam , he took the ekādaśī , and he liked it very much. *Jayapatākā: I just saw him also just before Janmāṣṭamī, and he was still very favorable then. We talked for about an hour and a half. He introduced me to all the MLAs of the twenty*-four paraganās . Prabhupāda: Tarun Kanti? Jayapatākā: When I go preaching, then I go, and the government MLA and Congress people, they also help me. They arrange sometimes places for me to stay and big program. And they protect that no people cause us any disturbances. Although we don't . . . Prabhupāda: What about our Godbrothers? Jayapatākā: The Godbrothers . . . Prabhupāda: They are also opposing? Jayapatākā: Subhaga made a very bad . . . Bhavānanda sent him over to invite Śrīdhara Swami for Janmāṣṭamī, as a show of respect. When he went there, and Śrīdhara Swami . . . he's not so clever boy. So Śrīdhara Swami asked him that, "Oh, what about your land acquisition?" What does he know about land acquisition? We never discussed anything with him. He can only know by hearsay or any . . . so then Subhaga said: "Oh, it's in the hands of the Chief Minister," for which I reprimanded him. He should have denied any knowledge of the matter at all. "Why you have given any information?" But they are very interested in these things, and maybe they are still trying to stop it, but I don't think they have the power. Prabhupāda: They have no power. Jayapatākā: They are the ones who have raised up that first petition, that Surendra dāsa, I think, and others. They are behind that. They themselves were in the market trying to get petition against, but no one would sign for them. We made a little of political . . . because in Māyāpur now we have got seventy percent of the people are . . . Prabhupāda: In our favor. Jayapatākā: In our favor strongly. And only a minority are actively opposed, one percent even. And thirty per cent are in doubt. So, so much so that even I saw recently the MLA who was previously against us. And when I saw him I invited him for Janmāṣṭamī, and he said what about our program for a bridge? I said: "Oh, yes, I discussed with Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he suggested having a floating bridge to Navadvīpa. That will be very short, very easily done, with least expense." He said: "Anyway, next time you come to Navadvīpa you can discuss with me. I am ready to help you in all ways." So he has turned his mind around. Prabhupāda: Who? Jayapatākā: The MLA, the local Member of Legislative Assembly. He was previously a little against us. But because our whole . . . (indistinct) . . . is for us, if he doesn't cooperate he won't get their vote, because they want the development in their area. Also the . . . he is changing a little. Everyone is saying that our Society is actually simply doing sincere work. Prabhupāda: As they are doing. Jayapatākā: This food distribution has been very important. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Jayapatākā: Now the price of rice has gone up by about eighty paisa . From two rupees to two*-eighty. So the poor class of people, they are in a very bad situation. So now our attendance has gone up from twelve hundred to two thousand on that Saturday and Sunday, each day. So we have two shifts. So many people are coming that they come from ten o'clock in the morning and wait, because otherwise they can't get a boat in time to cross the river. So then we were very surprised to read in a recent newsletter from LA that, "They're going to restart the food relief." But we never knew it stopped. We never knew that they had stopped the food relief. We saw then that he said, "They're going to restart." But we never stopped, and we were very surprised to see that. And now they say . . . Prabhupāda: Who said? Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara. Gargamuni: To maintain this food relief from the centers only requires what? Fifteen hundred dollars a month. Jayapatākā: Something like that, yes. Gargamuni: About fifteen hundred dollars a month. So little amount, and so much service is done. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: So I know Tamāla, he was giving one thousand, but he has stopped now. He was giving one thousand a month. And now he has stopped. Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara, you wrote him a letter that, "Jayapatākā Swami should be sent money for ISKCON Food Relief." And he told me that, "I am sending you. I have four thousand dollars," which he sent. Of that we had already been 36,000 rupees in debt because we hadn't received money for six months. But he wrote in a newsletter to the temples that, "Prabhupāda has wrote me to send money to Jayapatākā Swami; and now we're going to start again ISKCON Food Relief." But that was making it appear that we had stopped. But actually we had never stopped. Prabhupāda: Rāmeśvara. He did not know? Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara had stopped collecting from the temples. But we had never stopped . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, he'll collect. That's all. Jayapatākā: So anyway, your program everyone is appreciating. When the newspapermen came out, at that time the . . . (indistinct) . . . development officer he came there, and when the newspapermen were there he sat down with all the poor people, and he took also, and said: "This is very good. This is our national service." And they photographed. Prabhupāda: "National service"? Jayapatākā: Yes, he mentioned. Gargamuni: Still, though, because of these articles, it has been a little bit hard to secure money from people now, because the people who are giving us money, they are under investigation also, the rich people. So when they see we are under investigation, oh, then they get afraid. They don't want to give. Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: Because we're under investigation and they're also being investigated, so they don't want to endanger . . . the government is every day raiding the houses of the rich people. Prabhupāda: Anyway, what is the investigation? Jayapatākā: They are being investigated for income tax. Gargamuni: For income tax. The government is making it so that no one can give any donation. They don't want any more donation. They want everything to come to the government. So it's not easy to get money locally. We are getting enough to do maintenance, but it is not like it was, say, two or three years ago, when you could get 25,000, 15,000, especially in Calcutta, where the income tax, every day they are raiding the houses. Jayapatākā: Even if people give, a life . . . patron member, 2,222, if they are not so big, they want to give in installment, and even though they'll give at one time with postdated . . . they want different receipt, because if they give one lump sum, then it makes it seem that like they are very rich. Although they'll give you at one time, they want small, small receipt so that the income tax won't think, "Oh, they are giving so much donation? They must be very rich. They must have hidden wealth which we can capture from them by investigation." So in this way they are very much pressurized. Sometimes they prefer to give money without receipt. Prabhupāda: Soon on the whole, our program is going on. Gargamuni: Oh, yes. No, it's going on more. The book distribution is going on more. More people are joining. There's no hindrance. Prabhupāda: That I want. Jayapatākā: These are simply minor obstacles. Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Pālikā was just wondering if you wanted anything tonight. Prabhupāda: Yes. If she can . . . she can make little vegetable—potato, tomato. Hari-śauri: Purīs ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Or one paraṭā . One paraṭā . Hari-śauri: Just potatoes and tomato? Prabhupāda: Yes, tomato, potato, one vegetable. Gargamuni: Prabhupāda's house. Your house. You have not decided where you want to put your house. Prabhupāda: I wanted that if the major project is done, then we can select. What do you think? Jayapatākā: Let the big land be acquired and pick the best place. Let the whole land be acquired and then pick the best place. You wanted to wait for the whole land to be acquired, and then pick the best place. Prabhupāda: Yes. And not I want, but that you all see, which is the best place. Jayapatākā: For the most privacy. Prabhupāda: For the time being, that place is very nice, that pond. What is there? Gargamuni: It's become congested there now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: We have 125 people now. Jayapatākā: 138. Gargamuni: 138 people now. 138 people are living there. Women, children . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: There's fifty children now. So that place is now . . . the front has become somewhat congested . . . Prabhupāda: Congested. Gargamuni: . . . with noise and children. Prabhupāda: What about the painting? Gargamuni: Painting is going on. Oh, yes. Jayapatākā: They've done about sixteen or seventeen, I think. Prabhupāda: Our men? Gargamuni: Yes, yes. Jayapatākā: Two men. Ānakadundubhi and . . . What's his name? Gargamuni: Pāṇḍu. *Jayapatākā: (indistinct) . . . I went to Haridaspur as soon as I received your letter because Bahusvarūpa was there, making arrangement for the Janmāṣṭamī festival. So I spoke to all those people for two days, Thursday and Friday. And the land is in the name of the zamindar , Mr . . . Ghosh family. There's fourteen members who have to sign. So in Haridaspur nine members are living, and they are all agreed for signing. And they say the other five members live in Calcutta. Once they sign the deed, they'll also sign. There's no doubt, because that's not even in their possession. That's in the public's possession. And all the public, Anchal*-pradhan and all the other leaders of that village, they are also all eager to have us start. I think that we can also raise some money in the neighborhood. There's some relatively rich people. So that . . . I was trying to register that before I came here, but because Monday is . . . that zamindar has one haṭṭa . And that's . . . his haṭṭa day is Monday, so he was busy. And Tuesday was Janmāṣṭamī by government of West Bengal, and Wednesday was our Janmāṣṭamī and Haridaspur Janmāṣṭamī, and I came here today, Thursday, so we couldn't do it beforehand. But as soon as I go back, I can register that. And . . . but someone should immediately come, Mūrti or Saurabha or someone, and see that land. Prabhupāda: No, no, we have to . . . yes. We have to see, make plans. *Jayapatākā: Because actually just by giving the site plan you can't make a plan, because that's a high area, and it goes down to the river. So from our land to the river, that is also under our use. That is kashjami . That is no*-man's land. But that we can also use, and that has to be some strengthening so that when the river . . . and rain cannot wear away the side. So these details they should come and see, and then they could make a proper plan, I think. Without seeing, they can't make. 'Cause it's a very small area, it should be very well planned. And the local people there, they are very innocent people. They don't seem to have any type of enmity or envy at all. They all come and chant and see. Although they don't strictly follow the rules, naturally—they eat fish and other things and smoke—but they seem to be simple people. If someone would work with him, I think he could make the whole village gradually Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: But who that person is right now to work, that we have to train up some of our men. Because right now . . . Prabhupāda: He can do, Svarūpa. He can take training, and he can do. And then, gradually, others will join. Jayapatākā: I think all the children, they could become brahmacārīs . If the parents would be agreeable, they could become brahmacārīs and attend morning some class, then go to school. In this way, if the whole village could be made Kṛṣṇa conscious at least by chanting and attending, chanting . . . Prabhupāda: Chanting is the main thing. Chanting and distributing prasādam . Jayapatākā: If we get prasādam , then . . . and I think that they all contribute some grain. They are very poor agricultural people, but there's no theft there. I asked. There's one man who has three acres. Three bighās of land he's giving. So they just grow their rice there and . . . Prabhupāda: You can ask that instead of making paraṭā , a light khicuṛi in the morning. That is . . . Hari-śauri: Instead of that sabjī and everything. Prabhupāda: No, sabjī can make. Jayapatākā: Khicuṛi instead of paraṭā , as she made in the morning. Prabhupāda: So khicuṛi will be easy, light. Hari-śauri: You want some khicuṛi and the potato? Prabhupāda: Put in the khicuṛi and tomato. Like in the morning. Hari-śauri: Yes. Do you want anything like purī or anything to eat with it? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: Just khicuṛi with the vegetable. Prabhupāda: That will be easily digested. Jayapatākā: Digestion is not good now. Gargamuni: This will help digestion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: This medicine. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: There is ginger, I think. Prabhupāda: No. This is ajwain . My only concern is about the Immigration Department. They are gagging you, "Now you finished . . . go out. Go away, go out . . ." So they are making so big, big arrangement. If my foreign disciples are forced to go away, then what is the happen? That is . . . Gargamuni: Well, as far as myself . . . of course, I was supposed to leave yesterday. But there is very easy process. You can come in and out and stay six months. Prabhupāda: So that, make plans. That will . . . otherwise we are making so big, big, big plan. Who will manage? Jayapatākā: For that matter, we can get . . . even the American citizen, they can get outside . . . by various means you can get Canadian or English passports. Gargamuni: But even then, we can go to Lahore, get visa three months, come in, but you can stay six months. Then go out again, get another visa, come in and out. There is no problem. We have already done that with some of the other men. Prabhupāda: Make . . . find out such means. Otherwise . . . Alexander the Great, having so many kingdom, and as soon as he goes away, it is finished. *Jayapatākā: Also, if you would write . . . I think if you wrote a letter to Brahmānanda Reddy and that Mr. Mehta, the Deputy Assistant or whatever, minister, regarding these questions coming in the Rāja*-sabhā about this Māyāpur and Vṛndāvana, "Actually these two centers are my . . . I am founder- ācārya of these centers, and the people working there are not independent of me. I have asked them to come for assisting me." Then, if a letter like that is written to them, and send me one copy, that will help immigration also, I think. Gargamuni: Also another investigation, we're always asked, "Where is your headquarters?" Jayapatākā: And then "Our headquarters is in India." Gargamuni: It must be always stated, "Our headquarters are India." If we say "foreign," that means we are controlled by foreign. We must publish everywhere that our head . . . Prabhupāda: No, we have mentioned headquarters Bombay? Jayapatākā: We just said offices. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: They think that Los Angeles is our headquarters. Prabhupāda: That is for America. Gargamuni: We explain like that. Prabhupāda: But real headquarter here. Gargamuni: I think if one letter is given that, "We are purely Indian, that I am the ācārya , and they are simply helping me, they are not . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the fact. Jayapatākā: Actual facts is . . . that would help, if such a letter was given. Then on the basis of that, we can also go and preach or talk, or we can show that to the local people, that "This is . . ." Because they keep thinking that we are coming on our own. Because you are outside traveling, they see us only, and they think we are independent. Prabhupāda: No, in every letter heading there is my name, " Ācārya , Founder- ācārya ." Jayapatākā: That is their stupidity. But if some . . . that one direct letter, short letter, then if we have a copy I'll show that to the CID there, that "This, Prabhupāda has written to the Minister of Home. This is in answer to your question." Prabhupāda: Then take that copy. Jayapatākā: I'll make one draft. Prabhupāda: No, I have written already letter? Jayapatākā: You've written already letter? Prabhupāda: To the Home Minister? Jayapatākā: I didn't get. Has he written a letter to the Home Minister? Prabhupāda: No, Home Minister has given one letter. Gargamuni: I have that letter. Jayapatākā: You have one. Oh. Also, all over Bengal people are appreciating. I went . . . when we go preaching in the small towns . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Wait, I am coming. Among the . . . amongst these . . . not only for India, but the whole world. You are doing nice work to push this movement. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura wanted Indians, Americans. They can . . . Prabhupāda also. Now make plans how to . . . we are not concerned only with India. All over the world. Make plan. Think over. Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence. Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda would come to Māyāpur. Jayapatākā: When is your program for coming to Māyāpur? All the devotees are offering their obeisances to you. Bhavānanda Goswami, he is following very strictly the cāturmāsya this year. He doesn't eat anything before sunrise. Gargamuni: The weather there is very nice, because the monsoon is mild. It is very nice, cool weather. Prabhupāda: I have got a bad impression, Bengal during rainy season. Gargamuni: Yes, right. Prabhupāda: Is it not? Gargamuni: This year, for the first two months it was . . . Prabhupāda: No, it was not rainy season. This season. Otherwise, any season in Bengal, not are very good. Hari-śauri: Insect season. Prabhupāda: Not only insect. There are . . . insects are there? Gargamuni: There's no insects now. Jayapatākā: Rainy season no insects. Hari-śauri: No, after rainy season. Jayapatākā: After rainy season. Prabhupāda: After rainy season. And insect is not so bad. Indigestion. Jayapatākā: Indigestion. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . Gargamuni: What part of India is good during rainy season? Is there any part of India that's good during rainy season? Hari-śauri: Vṛndāvana's not too bad. Prabhupāda: I think Vṛndāvana. Is it not? Hari-śauri: I was there last year. Jayapatākā: I only know Bengal. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You are now Bengali. Jayapatākā: (laughs) Prabhupāda: And they are not giving citizenship? *Jayapatākā: Myself? What happened was I applied last September. So now it's nearly one year. So they had sent my application from Māyāpur to Calcutta, Writer's Building. Again back. Again Writer's Building, then to Delhi. Then Delhi sent again back. I went, and I asked the secretary, and then I found out that they had sent again back from Delhi, again back to Māyāpur, and then re*-investigated me. At that time they brought in some local people, and one investigator, he said that, "This Jayapatākā Swami, we have heard that he is a very bad person. He beats the people." They said: "No, we never heard such thing." "No, no. We have heard that he is very bad." In this way, by negative they are testing. They came and told me that for two hours police is drilling three different people from Navadvīpa and from Māyāpur. In this way no one said a bad . . . Prabhupāda: No, if you are a famous man, then they'll do. That is very good. Gargamuni: Him and Bhavānanda. Jayapatākā: Now Bhavānanda is more famous. Prabhupāda: He is notorious. Jayapatākā: But now he is in the papers. Prabhupāda: (laughing) He . . . you are famous; he is notorious. It is very difficult to deal with these nonsense. They are devotees, and neither notorious nor famous. Our Godbrothers, they do not like Bhavānanda. Eh? Jayapatākā: No, they don't like me anymore either. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? What is your fault? Jayapatākā: They always thought, because I am not so outspoken, that "Jayapatākā, we can get him to do as we like." But ultimately I don't do anything for them either, so now they don't like me either. Bhavānanda openly was against, and I was passive. I didn't say anything. But when they came to me I also . . . actually, I am afraid. Mādhava Mahārāja, he invited me to attend his program, some festival day . . . Prabhupāda: Where? Jayapatākā: At his Maṭha. Prabhupāda: Ten days? Ten days. *Jayapatākā: No, it was a three*-day program. He invited us for one day. But I was afraid to go. He might even poison me. But they personally went . . . Prabhupāda: That is their business, especially Mādhava Mahārāja. Jayapatākā: If not materially by poison, then spiritually by ear. One way or other, they have to give poison. So I didn't even want to go. I didn't go, either. Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara Mahārāja is also within the group? Jayapatākā: Of course, all those details we don't know. By the way, Tīrtha Mahārāja—very sick. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gargamuni: Oxygen. Jayapatākā: He can't breath. He is on a bed with oxygen. Life and death any moment. Injection, oxygen, barely staying alive. One day better, one day worse. Now they say better; then again they say worse. In this way his life is going on. But they say that his brother, Samvidananda, a barrister . . . (break) . . . and they've done a great to improve that. Now everyone is improved. Everyone is improved because of their example. That is what we simply need, are people . . . I saw the program so nicely, if people would simply come and work sincerely, they'll make spiritual advancement. They'll chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very quickly they'll become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So now we're seeing that we're being . . . we're demanding that sincere people come. Prabhupāda: Yes, it may not be the association of lazy people, free hotel. No. Jayapatākā: Bhavānanda, he's strict on that. Gargamuni: He's very strict. Without working, no one can eat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only work, but attending the program. That is essential. Jayapatākā: They all attend maṅgala-ārati , evening ārati . They should also attend morning class. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Work is partial. These things are essential. Jayapatākā: Maṅgala-ārati and morning class. Gargamuni: But some of these men are workers. They're not . . . Prabhupāda: No, our cloth necessities are supplied by ourselves? The cloth? Jayapatākā: The difficulty is right now we have twenty thousand rupees' worth of cloth in stock. That is all profit. We only are three thousand rupees in debt. But we have all the cloth, we have no customers. Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: There's no customers. We have a huge stock . . . Prabhupāda: You send immediately to America. They will pay. Gargamuni: We sent a newsletter to get people to buy cloth the cloth, because we have a huge stock of it. Prabhupāda: Now, you ask Bhagavān. He is very clever. He's expert. Jayapatākā: We are worried that now we're getting good men to join, they're doing good work, then how . . . Prabhupāda: I think if you prepare according to the order of our foreign centers, then you won't be . . . they will all give. You can make fine cloth? Jayapatākā: We can make up to eighty count. Eighty count we can make now. Prabhupāda: They are purchasing cloth, shirt and everything. Jayapatākā: They're saying . . . sometimes they say that, "The cloth you make is not what we like." But I tell them we can make any cloth. You give us sample. You tell us. We'll make to your specification." They don't . . . Prabhupāda: Even . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, Jayatīrtha, Bhagavān dāsa, they'll help. Jayapatākā: The GBCs can write a letter, and I'll sign it, you and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Gargamuni: All right, I'll write a letter. Let's not bother Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: How is that, twenty thousand stock is there? You can send it. In India there is no customer? Gargamuni: No, because it's made according to European length. Big size. Jayapatākā: Up to now we've been making according to the devotees' specification. To make for Indian we have to make a different type. We can also make Indian sārī and other thing. They'll be cheaper one. But previously we were making because we thought that all the foreign branches . . . Prabhupāda: So whatever . . . now you can make Indian style. You keep great stock. Jayapatākā: Well, we are hearing that they are buying the cloth elsewhere. Gargamuni: All right. Come on. Jayapatākā: All right. Prabhupāda: Eh? They are buying elsewhere? Gargamuni: Yes. They are buying sometimes from other. (to Jayapatākā) All right. Let's go and chant. We'll come back tomorrow. Jayapatākā: Other thing we can discuss tomorrow. (break) Gargamuni: . . . Birla Prabhupāda: It is difficult to go there. It is difficult to go there. Gargamuni: Yes. And here there is more devotion. Prabhupāda: Here they are devotees. Jayapatākā: We made this for distributing, and the public, they take and worship in their home, purchase it. Gargamuni: (to Jayapatākā) Let's go. Prabhupāda: They purchase? Gargamuni: Yes. Jayapatākā: Yes. This is Indian printing. Prabhupāda: Calcutta? Gargamuni: Yes. (break) Prabhupāda: So, so far the building is concerned, that is already settled up. Jayapatākā: Yes, that's all settled. Prabhupāda: Then, what other? *Jayapatākā: Well, there were some other lighter matters. When I was traveling in my preaching, then last time in Māyāpur, when that Haridaspur, when they offered, you mentioned to me that you liked that we develop these . . . all these holy spots. So just as a matter of convenience, whenever I was near any holy spot that you mentioned in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , I would go and just visit the place. So in my tour, one place I went to was very nice, and that sevaite, he spontaneously, when I showed him all your work, he had offered me that he would like to give the temple to you. That temple is much, much more developed than Haridaspur. That's the temple of Maheśa Paṇḍita. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Jayapatākā: And that is the seventeenth branch of Lord Nityānanda. It's got the personal Deities of Nitāi*-Gaura that he used to worship. It's got a building worth about fifty thousand rupees on it. A nice, brand-new nātha-mandira. This man is Shri Keshav Priya Brahmacari. He's a disciple of that Krishna Prem, that Mr. Nixtan or something. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayapatākā: He talked personally with Bhaktisiddhānta, I heard, in Sanskrit many years ago. He's a disciple. Prabhupāda: He's Indian or . . .? *Jayapatākā: Well, it's an unusual story that that man was a pilot in the World War, and he was flying over Himalayas or something, and he saw Kṛṣṇa in his mind's eye or something. And then, when he was shot down, he saw Kṛṣṇa, and then, when he landed, he searched out who he saw, and he came to Vṛndāvana or something and saw the Deity of Kṛṣṇa, and he became initiated at Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa temple. *Prabhupāda: Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa Jayapatākā: This is that guru story. Now he only made a few disciples, and he always was chanting. Also Panditjī, he knew more. I don't know so much about his guru but I've heard a little bit that this foreigner became a guru or became a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Nixon? Jayapatākā: His previous name is Nixton; his initiated name was Krishna Prem. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was in Almora. Jayapatākā: Almora, yes. I don't know exactly where Almora is. Prabhupāda: Almora is a hilly station, Himalaya. If . . . Almora, one goes from Lucknow. *Jayapatākā: So this brahmacārī is a disciple of him. Therefore he doesn't have any connection. There's no sampradāya anymore, because his guru disappeared, and somehow he's got this sevā . These are the Deities there of Nitāi*-Gaura. There's about twelve śālagrāma-śilās also. And a little Rādhā-Gopīnātha. This is all mentioned in your purport. It's only about four or five hundred yards. I could read from it. Prabhupāda: Eh? No, that's all right. Jayapatākā: It's four or five hundred yards from the Palpara Railway Station. It's the next station from Chuktaha, under Chuktaha police station. Prabhupāda: Chuktaha? Chakdah. Jayapatākā: Chakdah. That's where you take your . . . that mango orchard where you take your lunch? That's just the nearest place to Chakdah So he was very pleased with all the work that you are doing. He's in Vṛndāvana now for Janmāṣṭamī. He hadn't been to Vṛndāvana for five years, so he went to Vṛndāvana for darśana . He may be there even when you go. I'm not sure if he'll be there then. Prabhupāda: You have advised to see our temple? *Jayapatākā: Yes, he'll definitely visit. I also gave him an introduction that if he goes, he should be received there. He's got . . . the present place where the Deities are situated is on four kuttas of land. And apart from that, where Maheśa Paṇḍita's samādhi is, he's got three bighās of land. That's right next to a four*-hundred-year-old temple. Prabhupāda: Chakdah is to the . . . it is from Shrirampur? No. Jayapatākā: No, it's on this side of the Ganges. It's on the eastern side of the Ganges. Prabhupāda: Oh, eastern. Jayapatākā: There there's another temple of Jagadīśa Paṇḍita. Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes. Jayapatākā: That is run by Mādhava Mahārāja. That's in actual Chakdah, and this is another mile or two miles from Chakdah. That Jagadīśa Paṇḍita mandira has got big Jagannātha Deity, and one stick which Jagadīśa Paṇḍita carried the Jagannātha Deity from Jagannātha Purī with. I saw both temples. They told me there that "You should see this temple, very lovable Deities." And I went in. Actually the Deities are very beautiful and very well kept. Just like in Mādhava Mahārāja's mandira , underneath the siṁhāsana they didn't wash. Only in front. But this man, everything was neat and clean. It looked like a thriving, more or less, a thriving place. Prabhupāda: So difficulty is that if we take charge, we may give it for worshiping to one disciple, but the Immigration Department will gag him. That is the difficulty. And we don't have many Indian disciples. Otherwise, we can take all these important places. Jayapatākā: Also, last when I was in Calcutta and I saw Tarun Kanti Ghosh, then he mentioned to me again that the people from Pānihāṭi, this time that they had reached a decision that they wanted to give us the sevā of the Rāghava Paṇḍita's house. Prabhupāda: So we take. Let us take it. Jayapatākā: That's a very important . . . but that's in dilapidated state. Prabhupāda: We shall repair. Jayapatākā: In the letter of the Home Minister where he said that every disciple can stay for two years, possibly if he allowed that in every center, if a minimum of a few people could stay for citizenship, then that might . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: Ordinary, by rotation, and three, two or three or four permanent, by citizen, if he allowed to stay . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: . . . then that would solve the problem. Prabhupāda: Yes. That make. Jayapatākā: Not too many. Prabhupāda: Not too many. Say at least five. They will manage. Jayapatākā: Four or five. All others on rotation. Prabhupāda: Then they will manage. And if they allow two years, that's all right. One devotee comes, another goes, another . . . that will be done. Jayapatākā: Because some that are acclimatized, it is difficult for training up. A few people are better to stay there that are trained up on that basis. I think with Mr. Patnaik and others that . . . because he also wants that Orissan development . . . they can understand that it is important to have one or two people that are known people stay there. If every two years a change is, that is disadvantage. *Prabhupāda: No, our Gaura*-Govinda, I think he is doing there nice. Jayapatākā: He's doing nice in Bhubaneswar. Prabhupāda: Yes. He has already few cottages? Jayapatākā: Of course, I didn't see myself. I heard he has got a few cottages, three, four cottages. Prabhupāda: So our Gargamuni has seen? *Jayapatākā: Yes, I think Gargamuni has seen. Gargamuni is giving him some help. He printed one Orissan book, and he gives him sometimes some books and help. He is fixed up, that Gaura*-Govinda. Prabhupāda: He's fixed up. That's nice. Let him translate in Orissa and, if possible, in Hindi. And give him few devotees. Then he'll be encouraged. *Jayapatākā: I think he has got two or three devotees now. This man himself is a pretty capable worker. He's similar like Prabhu Swarupa, only a little older, little more mature. He's about forty*-five or so. He's been able to collect about, what I can see, about fifty thousand rupees for one nātha-mandira. So he is al . . . and he has a couple thousand people. I heard from the Gauḍīya Maṭha. They say they have big utsavas there. Every year two, three thousand people come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: So he's a capable . . . Prabhupāda: Manager. Jayapatākā: . . . manager in his own right. He wanted to meet you. Prabhupāda: So let us cooperate with him. You take it. And he is there. In the meantime, our men may be trained up. Jayapatākā: He's invited us to come. He has some festival coming. Then we can just go . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . Jayapatākā: . . . and keep a good relationship. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jayapatākā: The main one is in December. Prabhupāda: Our difficulty is this immigration. If we can manage this, then all such places we can take. There is no question. The only thing is that government is gagging. One has to go, and it means ten thousand rupees unnecessarily. If that ten thousand rupees was invested in developing that center, much improvement could be done. But they are gagging. They are dreaming, "CIA." Jayapatākā: When I go back, I'll see this Raghava Pandit, because there the MLA, he himself wants it because that's a very important place and it's going bad. Prabhupāda: So that MLA can help us to get some citizenship. Jayapatākā: With MLA and with Tarun Kanti Ghosh . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: . . . we can use them for pushing, because they are personally interested. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: They'll be able to help. *Prabhupāda: You can bring so many men and keep everyone in charge of such places, and it will develop. Money, there is no scarcity. But the difficulty is as soon as we establish, the Immigration, "You go away." This is . . . what is this? You say the MLA and this Tarun Kanti, "This is our difficulty. Otherwise there is no difficulty. We can take all the charge and develop them very nicely." So if one man is kept in charge, and after few months he's advised, "Go away," then all his training goes to hell and we have to spend another ten thousand rupees. This is the difficulty. What . . . we are not . . . not a single case there is that we have taken any part in politics. So give us some facility. We can take charge of everything. Tell them that actually that is fact, that there is no scarcity of money. We can bring money from America and develop. There is no difficulty at all. The difficulty is the Immigration Department. You can say that "Prabhupāda has put this philosophy, andha . . ." What is that? Paṅgu. Andha*-paṅgu-nyāya. Blind and . . . depends on this . . . blind and . . . I think you have already know. Blind man, lame man. One man is blind, another man is lame. Both of them are useless. But when they combine, the blind man takes the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man gives direction to the blind man, "Go this way. Go this way." So he walks. So both of them are benefited. So America has got money, but blind. And India has got culture, but lame. So let us combine. Then things will be done very nice. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya . Just like I am the same man. I was finding difficulty to start this mission in India, very, very difficult. With great hardship I published three books. But as soon as I went America, the andha-paṅgu-nyāya became successful. So this is the position. *So instead of becoming envious from political . . . we have nothing to do with . . . to the Americans unnecessarily thinking they are CIA. CIA . . . let American money and India's culture combine together, and the whole world will be benefited. America has got enough money, they can spend. Either they give me as the price of my book or anything, money is there like anything. India has got culture. So Indian culture, Vedic culture, Bhagavad*-gītā culture, pushed through American money, the whole world will be benefited. Convince these things. It is not the question of "India," "America," here . . . it is a cultural movement for the benefit of the whole world. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). It is cultural movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is aiming pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi. So "Tarun Babu, you are such a devotee of Caitanya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants it. Pṛthivīte āche yata . . . why don't you help us? Your family is devotee of Lord Caitanya, and this is spreading Caitanya's mission. You should give up everything and join this movement, if you are actually a devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And Prabhupāda says that he knows at your heart you want that Caitanya's movement is spread all over the world, so far he has studied you. So let us join together. Why we should unnecessarily be biased, 'American' and 'Indian' and . . . let us join together and spread Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement all over the . . . they'll be happy. Everyone will be happy. It is such a nice . . . India will be glorified. America will be glorified." If we . . . you came here. You have got so much strength. If you work continually, the whole world will be . . . so those who are offering, take. Take those places. Let us begin. If anyone wants some property, we should take immediately. You said there is already building cost fifty thousand? So that's a property. So if they are offering, you take it and develop. These are historical places. Haridaspur is also historical, I think. Hmm? Jayapatākā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Vena? Venapur is nearby. Two miles. Jayapatākā: Two miles. Two or three miles. Jayapatākā: No, that's been . . . Haridaspur, since time of Lord Caitanya, for many, many years, four hundred . . . right from the time of Lord Caitanya they are calling that. They say there's no doubt that Haridāsa Ṭhākura came that way. Prabhupāda: That must be. It is two, three miles. If he was a person belonging to Venapur, so two, three miles surrounding he must have gone. There is no doubt. And if you can establish good relationship with Pakistan, Bangladesh, then our whole question is solved. Go there, seek some preaching and come here, and all these motorcar problems . . . Gargamuni: I don't want to sell them, you know . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is a very . . . Gargamuni: . . . because we took great hardship to bring them. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: Why we should sell them? They are so useful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: They have done so much work already. *Prabhupāda: It is . . . nowadays motor vehicle is important item for anyone. We have spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness so quickly on account of the modern transport facilities, so we must take it as favorable. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). Anukūla , favorable. Favorable, favorable. It is not we have got . . . (indistinct) . . . with material. That is not Rūpa Gosvāmī's . . . prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi . . . this cars can be used for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why it should be condemned? That is not intelligence. Rūpa Gosvāmī condemns it. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256). Things which is in the service of the Lord, if we think it is material, that is not vairāgya . That is not renouncement. That is foolishness. (break) Jayapatākā: When I was traveling in Burdwan, there we saw the big palace of Mahārāja of Burdwan. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Jayapatākā: Gigantic. He has given that to the university. Then we did a kīrtana at his . . . he has one temple of Rādhā*-kānta. There's . . . present ācārya is about a twenty-two-year-old boy. He's in the sampradāya of Nimbārka Svāmī. So he doesn't know anything about . . . very much about spiritual life, although he is following the tradition. That's such a vast . . . that building is vast. I can't explain to you how big that is. It makes our . . . it's at least five times bigger than our building in all ways, and . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: Than our building, five times bigger, I think, in length and . . . it is a huge compound. He has got much land in the name of the Deity. So he's becoming a member because he wants to read your books to understand about Lord Caitanya and spiritual . . . Prabhupāda: Now for making member you should be very clear so that no misunderstanding can take place. Books, we shall give five books. Gargamuni: Yes, that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: On my form I have already printed we give five books. Prabhupāda: "When you finish, you return this; you take another. When you finish that . . ." In this way. Gargamuni: Well, we've been doing with members in Calcutta, members who want more of the books, they sign the standing order and they pay us for the books. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Gargamuni: Every month. One book a month and they pay. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gargamuni: And they sign the standing order. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Gargamuni: So we have taken many personal standing orders. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gargamuni: We have one boy, Santoṣa. He goes door to door, meeting Bengali men, and they are signing standing orders and taking Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. He has already done four standing orders in about ten days' time. Prabhupāda: Bengalis? Bengalis? Gargamuni: Yes, only to Bengalis. Because it's in their language . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: They can read. Prabhupāda: No, it is in English. Anyone can. Gargamuni: Yes, but Bengalis, they can appreciate more Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Jayapatākā: I tell the members that, "You can't get any Bhāgavatams ," because there's too many. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why not? If he reads, give him. And it is very easy. Suppose I give you five books. You become member. So you read it and take another five books. This five books I can give to another. In this way we can manage. There is no misunderstanding. We give you book for reading, not for selling. Not that, "I have given money. Now so many books, let me sell it and get return as many, as much money as possible." Bāniyā tendency is like that. Jayapatākā: Because they're paying 2,222 rupees. If they only give them five books on exchange, I don't think now they'll be satisfied. Prabhupāda: What for he's taking? Gargamuni: They're satisfied. Prabhupāda: No, no. Jayapatākā: Now we're giving them the books. Prabhupāda: No, no. Jayapatākā: We told them, "You can't have any books." Prabhupāda: What is the cause of dissatisfaction? You take the books for reading, so you finish this and again we give five books. We take back this and give you in exchange. So actually we give them five books for good. That we are prepared. Five books at fifty rupees each, that one or 250. Jayapatākā: But they're giving two thousand rupees. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gargamuni: That's for membership. That isn't just for books. Sometimes they stay in our mandiras . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: We pay for their prasāda . Prabhupāda: And three days free boarding and lodging. In this way things should be clear so that in future they may not complain, "Ah, we . . ." as they are doing. Somebody is coming, "Oh, we have given 1100 rupees to live here forever." Some ladies came like that. Gargamuni: Yes, I know. I met that lady. Prabhupāda: Yes, they take it, advantage, "Oh, we shall get all books, we shall live forever. There is no charge, pay." That misunderstanding should be . . . Gargamuni: So now we say they can live forever, but as we live. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. That . . . that you can do. Gargamuni: Not that they will get special privilege of . . . as hotel. They must live like us. Prabhupāda: But they want free hotel. That is . . . they want free. Jayapatākā: Sometimes old man who has got some money . . . Prabhupāda: No, old . . . old man is different. Jayapatākā: He wants to live, and he is too weak to do anything. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jayapatākā: He wants to chant and give some money. Prabhupāda: Let him purchase one room. Let him live . . . for life he can live, and we give him prasādam free. Jayapatākā: Purchase one room. Eight, ten thousand rupees. Prabhupāda: No, fifty thousand, I think. In Vṛndāvana we are selling sixty thousand. Sixty thousand. Gargamuni: No, but those rooms have attached bath. In our room there is no attached bath. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say in Vṛndāvana, that's all right. Or anywhere. Whatever money is fixed up, let him pay, live in his room comfortably, and we give him free prasādam . There is no harm. But he must attend the ārati , and rules and regulations. There is no . . . Jayapatākā: No tea, nor . . . all the rules he should follow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: Attend the program. Prabhupāda: Even if old men cannot follow, still, he should be given. Gargamuni: What about tea? Prabhupāda: Tea, tea can . . . then he'll caught. That is not. Gargamuni: Because the old men, they are addicted to the tea. Prabhupāda: No, what . . . many old men, they can give it up. Gargamuni: We will promise them cow's milk. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Gargamuni: Pure cow's milk. Prabhupāda: That "Instead of this tea, you take milk." Little milk, that is beneficial. So membership should be clearly defined, so that they may not misunderstand. Gargamuni: But we're not having trouble now. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gargamuni: Because we printed a new form. And generally, when members come they always donate more, so we give them one book. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: They always . . . I visited one hundred members, and all of those old members, they gave another one thousand. Prabhupāda: Just see. Yes, they will give. I know. Gargamuni: They'll give if you treat them nicely. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: And I gave them one book, and they're satisfied. Prabhupāda: Any person who has money, they'll receive. So many places they are offering us land . . . Gargamuni: There's another man who wants to give a big property. When you come to Calcutta he wants to see you. Prabhupāda: In Calcutta? Gargamuni: No, it's in Rajasthan. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gargamuni: It's a palace which he's not using. And he met you in Bombay. He also visited our centers in Paris and New York. He's a Marwari man, very rich, very nice. He's also donated good sums to the Society. So now he wants to meet you, and he wants someone to go there. So I told him we will go and look at it. Prabhupāda: Where? Gargamuni: It's in Rajasthan. Prabhupāda: Rajasthan? Where? Which side. Gargamuni: It's near Bikaner. It's with agricultural land and a big house. They said they spent about fifteen lacks on it, marble house. The family is not using it. They have no use. We're getting a lot of offers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: But because of Māyāpur, I have not taken them very seriously, because we already have huge affair in Māyāpur. But if you like, we can see. Prabhupāda: No, kāca dhun kāca kaphe : "If some property is offered, we should take it." That is the . . . and washed cloth, jācā dhun kācā kapha . If somebody offers you very nicely washed cloth, you should use it. And some property, you must use it. They are . . . you can utilize this property by inhabiting the persons, if they are inclined to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are rotting outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They may come to live. We are for everyone. So he . . . where does he reside, this gentleman? Gargamuni: In Calcutta. His businesses are there. He's a wealthy man, very nice man. Prabhupāda: Where does he live? Gargamuni: He's lives in Bara Bazar. His name is Mr. Buwalka. Prabhupāda: Bara Bazar Marwaris are all businessmen. Gargamuni: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is combination of rich men, poor men, for Kṛṣṇa. The same— andha*-paṅgu-nyāya . Both of them are useless separately, and when they combine in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are all useful. It is very good example. And there is another example, that a piece of wire is falling, rotting, and a piece of bamboo, rotting, and a piece of squash skin is rotting. And one gentleman collected. He nicely trimmed the piece and dried the squash, the outer portion, and took the bamboo and nicely cut it and joined the string, and this became a sitar: ting, ting, ting . So it is the intelligent person who joins all these things and makes it very useful. These are the examples. The bamboo alone is useless, and a small piece of wire, useless, and a thrown-out squash skin, useless. But if you can join them together, you can " ting, ting ." Similarly, andha-paṅgu-nyāya . Here is a lame man, here is a blind man. All right, combine together and use them. That is wanted. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhi labhate . This wire does not change. It is wire, it remains wire. But when it is combined, it is useful. So our propaganda is, "They are separately planning useless. Let them combine together in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All this planning shall be successful. Jayapatākā: We were all useless in the West, but you have come and then engaged us. *Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Nobody is useless. I was also useless. I could not do in India alone anything. This is . . . again the same example: (laughs) two useless makes useful. Intelligence alone cannot work. Money is required. One man was challenged, "You have no intelligence." So he said, "Yes." He was searching these . . . "No, why you are searching here?" "No, here is intelligence. If here is money, then my intelligence can work. Otherwise what is the use of intelligence?" But he was searching here, "Whether I have got intelligence?" Simply intelligence . . . in industry also: land, labor, capital, organization—four things needed. Simple capital will not do. Simple organization will not do. A man may have very good brain power, organization, but if he has no money—useless. So four things required: land, labor, capital, organization. That minister in Raṅganātha, he is inclined to spend huge income of Tirupati, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But he is bound up by other colleagues. They are applying the money. So he's willing to call all the ministers if I can convince them. I shall try it. Just . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, yajñārthe karma . Everyone is karmī . So the karmīs , the village cultivators or big men industrialists, they are going to Tirupati. Whatever then can spare, they are offering. That is yajñārthe . If this money is taken and again if it is brought into karmī , then it is misleading. Karmīs are giving them. Just like people are giving us money. They are karmīs . But because they are giving us and we are engaging the money in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so the money is fully utilized. But if this money again taken and again to the karmīs . . . Jayapatākā: Without any spiritual work. Prabhupāda: Then it is a farce. His purpose is served, but one who is misleading the . . . he becomes criminal. Jayapatākā: The man who gives, his purpose is served. Prabhupāda: His purpose is served. Jayapatākā: The man who takes the money is . . . *Prabhupāda: He is to be punished. His misusing. Suppose in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement somebody gives us money. He is giving good faith that "It is very good organization." But if I misspend that money, then I am responsible. Then I'll be punished. His business is finished. Kṛṣṇa noted that he has given his hard*-earned money for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If I take that money . . . instead of doing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if I use it for my sense gratification, then I'll be . . . then I'll be responsible. What is the use of Kṛṣṇa's money being used for industry? Any purpose outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . let this money be utilized for spreading the glories of Kṛṣṇa. But they do not recognize Kṛṣṇa. All the so-called Bhagavad-gītā readers, they want to kill Kṛṣṇa. Gargamuni: Yes, that's a fact. The Calcutta plan that you had, it is still under consideration. At first the Calcutta corporation refused, but then Abhirāma saw the Minister of Municipal Affairs, Mr. Subrata Mukerjee. Prabhupāda: So I gave the meaning. Gargamuni: He said: "No, I want this." But there's still a problem, is that they'll allow a monument, but they don't want the Deity. They'll allow us to build a monument for Bhaktivedanta Swami but no Deity. Prabhupāda: Well, then take this proposal, "All right, no Deity." We shall hold meetings, lecture. What is that? In the park people come. And we decorate the whole hall with pictures. Gradually we worship one picture. Gargamuni: Later on, maybe we can put Deity. Once it's built, they cannot tell us to get out. Jayapatākā: That's what Mr. Choudhuri said. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: He said, "You can take, and once a week you bring Deity and put, and other time you just do kīrtana ." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jayapatākā: One week, it stays one week. Then it stays one month . . . Gargamuni: We can take the Deity for a walk around the park, and then into the hall for two hours . . . Prabhupāda: For some time, two hours. Gargamuni: And then take out. Prabhupāda: Yes, then do that. And we are inviting everyone. We have no distinction. Anyone can come to the park. Convince them. (break) "Come on! Take prasādam sumptuously." They'll be satisfied. They are hungry. Actually they are hungry, poorly paid, capitalist and worker. The trouble is, capitalists, they are taking all the profit, and they are enjoying life in wine and women. Naturally the worker will see that, "Why? We are working so hard, and they are making profit, and they are enjoying, and we do not live in a very nice house; it is a slum." Naturally they will be envious. If the capitalists spend the money for Kṛṣṇa consciousness—in each and every factory they hold festivals and give them eatables like anything—everything will be successful. Gargamuni: We tell them that "If you give your Kṛṣṇa tax, this will save you from the income tax." Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: "Because they are raiding . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: ". . . because you are hoarding. But if you give . . ." Prabhupāda: The industrialists . . . that is also one of our programs. Let them hold festivals every Sunday, as we hold. And we shall go and have kīrtana and sumptuous feeding give. They'll be very satisfied. And instead of giving the income tax, let them spend in this way. Convince them. Jayapatākā: At the factories. Weekly foodstuffs. They feed all the workers. We'll prepare the prasāda , offer to the Deity and feed to all the workers. Prabhupāda: They'll be satisfied. Gargamuni: Presently the building they're in now is unbearable, as far as living Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: Well, it is old building. Water supply is very bad. Prabhupāda: So you cannot . . . Gargamuni: It is a rotten building. Prabhupāda: Rotten cannot be repaired? Gargamuni: No. And the landlord won't allow him here. Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: Because he wants us to get us out . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, but he . . . Gargamuni: But he won't allow any repair. You have to have his permission to get repair. If you don't get landlord's permission, then you cannot repair. You're forced to live in a slum. Prabhupāda: No, no, you require permission of the landlord if he pays. Gargamuni: No, no. Even if he doesn't. Any construction . . . Prabhupāda: No, I don't think that is the law. What is the law? I am feeling inconvenience, I cannot repair? Gargamuni: No. Jayapatākā: No, how that can be? You can tell the police. Gargamuni: No, then you have to go to the court, and that takes ten years. Just like he's in the court for five years now. He is not taking our rent. Prabhupāda: Then let us repair. Let him go to the court. Because by repairing, we have broken the law, so let him go to the court. (laughter) The same logic. Gargamuni: Actually, Abhirāma . . . also, the facility for living there is only good for five or six persons. Otherwise it is not good. So they want to get a building. Prabhupāda: So what happened to the corner house? What happened to the corner house? Gargamuni: No, that is still there. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you purchase it? Gargamuni: Which corner one? The one right across? Prabhupāda: Yes. Left corner. Gargamuni: No, but that's even worse condition than what we have. Prabhupāda: No, no, we break it and prepare nice temple. Gargamuni: He went to see that man. That man, he doesn't want to sell. Prabhupāda: What was the . . . Gargamuni: He's one of these Marwaris who is very miser. He himself lives in a slum. Jayapatākā: But right now Abhirāma hasn't found another place. Gargamuni: I just talked to him. Let me talk . . . Jayapatākā: He told me ten minutes ago . . . (indistinct) Gargamuni: So they are thinking they want to get . . . Prabhupāda: And one thing is that next thing will be . . . now there are many flats. Gargamuni: Now, we have one flat that we are renting. Prabhupāda: Not renting. Purchase. Gargamuni: Well, the only thing is with these flats in Calcutta, they are so mismanaged, these new places. They become a slum in two months. In Bombay the flats are managed nicely, but in Calcutta when they build a new one, within two months the whole thing is filthy dirty, the elevators don't work. It's not worth purchasing a flat. I have one now. I am renting. It's on the twelfth floor, and the members of our traveling party stay there, you see. There is nice water and so many things. But the building is so mismanaged. Who wants to stay there more than a year? We need our own place. Then we can keep it clean and nice. Prabhupāda: Where is that own place? Gargamuni: Well, there are buildings that we can get. In Ballygunge we have some offers. That's if this park doesn't come through. If the park does not come through, then we can . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all try to make . . . this is the best place in Calcutta. Jayapatākā: I personally went with Abhirāma to see the minister, and the minister didn't give any stipulation. He was only for the project. His only reservation was that, he said first of all, politically, he doesn't know about our Society. If the government Home Department says that it's all right . . . as far as the program is, the program, the plan that was given, he totally accepts it as it is. That's when I saw him. Since then, Abhirāma has not seen him. But the people in the corporation, they have refused it without his sanction, and they have written him that the minister said he does not want it. When we took that—we showed it to the minister—he said: "This is completely wrong." He said: "No, no, no! There is some misunderstanding." Then he said, "You write me a letter that there is some misunderstanding, and I will take care of this matter." Gargamuni: So he wrote the letter, and now they forward that letter back to the Calcutta corporation without a letter from the minister. Because he went back there. He just told me that. So it's back again to the same guys who, you know . . . of course, I don't know what letter he has written, but the officers would not tell us anything. Anyway, we will try our best. Prabhupāda: Why not take the Victoria Memorial? What is, they are doing? Jayapatākā: I have never gone inside. I heard it is simply old English armor and some swords. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen. Gargamuni: And the marble is turning black. Prabhupāda: Because they don't . . . Gargamuni: They don't clean. Jayapatākā: How they can afford to maintain such a building? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa will maintain. Jayapatākā: Oh, we can. Prabhupāda: We can utilize it properly. Jayapatākā: And we'll have British pūjārīs . For the glory of Queen Victoria. Prabhupāda: Victoria. Let them send. Tell them that we shall bring. Victoria has . . . let them send to worship Victoria with prasādam of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is real Victoria Memorial. Jayapatākā: That is putra . (loud kīrtana in the background throughout) *Prabhupāda: Yes, great*-grandson. Putra is great . . . the putra was that Edward Seventh. Jayapatākā: No, but to lift from hell. When she gets prasādam . *Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Puṁ*-nārakāt trāyate iti putra . Victoria died in 1903. There was great function, and this building started in 1903, and it was finished in 1922. Jayapatākā: After her death. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Curzon's plan . . . Lord Curzon wanted that let there be a king of India from the family of Victoria. He gave this plan. But this Parliament did not want that Englishman shall make India home. Then his interest will be in India. Just like America. Englishmen, as they made America their home, they declared independence. Australia. As soon as you make a home, then the more interest will be in India. Washington was Englishman. Was he not? Washington? Gargamuni: Yes. Well, everyone came from England. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not from England many. But ordinary . . . so Englishman, why he declared war against the English? Jayapatākā: Their interest was in America more than England. Prabhupāda: Yes. Naturally. So as soon as you make home, your interest will be at home. So that was their policy. In those days no Englishman was allowed to purchase property in India. All his income, money, should go to England. So the Muhammadan Moguls, they made their home in India. Therefore they stayed for eight hundred years. They would not have gone. Indians did not like to finish the Muhammadan kingdom. No, never. It is the Englishmen. They penetrated and finished them, not the Indians. Indians were not against the Muhammadans. They are going on. Little bit discrepancies were there, especially during the time of Aurangzeb. He was bigot Muhammadan. He hated the Hindus. Not hated, but he was a . . . was is called, bigot, Muhammadan? He did not hate. That was not his qualification. Aurangzeb gave many contributions to the Vṛndāvana temples. Yes. And Aurangzeb's grandfather, Jahangir, he gave many temples to many brāhmins . There is one village just opposite Vṛndāvana, Keśīghāṭa: Jahangipura. This village was given to a brāhmin . From the income he was maintaining a temple. And Aurangzeb . . . you know Sringarpat Goswami? Devotee (1): (entering room) Śrīla Prabhupāda, Shankar Kumar has brought the food and all these things to his place. So if you'd like to go afterwards or take here, or what would you like? Prabhupāda: No, no, let them take. Devotee (1): Pradyumna thought that you wanted to take with them. Prabhupāda: So I can take, but you'll take . . . Devotee (1): They'll have their food, and you will also have . . . Prabhupāda: No, what is that? Let them take here in the temple. Devotee (1): In the temple? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I will have to take at least one hour. How they will wait? Jayapatākā: Better they take separately. Prabhupāda: So Indians did not like that Muhammadans may go away. Rather, when Shri Rajdullah was arrested by flight, the Bengali zamindars , they protested. Rani Bhavani, she protested, although it is alleged that Shri Rajdullah kidnapped her daughter. But if Shri Rajdullah kidnapped her daughter, how he (she) supported Shri Rajdullah? There are so many falsehoods. On the whole, the Indians never planned to drive away the Muhammadans. They never. That's a fact. They were happy because there was no exploitation. All these Muhammadans, they made their home in India, so whatever lavishly they were spending, that was coming to the Indians. In Tollygunge there is a man—now they are aristocratic family—he was servant of the nawab , and he stolen one shoes, one feet, which was bedecked with jewels. So by selling that jewel he became a rich man. So although they were using jeweled shoes, but it was in India. They were satisfied that, "I am nawab . I am using jeweled shoes." But the jeweled shoes was in India, and these Englishmen, they have taken away all the jewels even from the walls, and keeping them in their homes—all gold, jewels, everything. Gargamuni: Yeah. That's a fact that in those old houses, the Marwaris, they have inherited all of these pieces. Now they have it all. In the old British houses many Marwaris have taken over, and they have inherited all of the treasures of the British. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gargamuni: Many antiques. Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyway, if I take away something from you in this room and I keep it somewhere in this room, then where is the difference either with you or with me? That was going on during Muhammadans' ruling. But these people, they took away from the room. Gargamuni: Exploitation. *Prabhupāda: So India became poverty*-stricken. Jayapatākā: One more thing is that locally, that bank that opened there . . . Prabhupāda: They are . . . they are crazy fellows. Gargamuni: That bank is worthless. They don't know anything about banking. They are farmers. Prabhupāda: Forget it. If bank like Central Bank or United, that bank . . . they are useless, and they are asking ten lakhs of rupees deposit. Jayapatākā: Five lakhs . They will give interest. They'd like a fixed amount . . . Prabhupāda: So who believes them? Gargamuni: No, but I don't trust that bank because they already tried . . . they kept fifty thousand rupees. It took us two weeks to get that. Jayapatākā: They didn't have my signature. Gargamuni: It doesn't matter, though. It's still . . . Jayapatākā: No bank would have given. Without signature no . . . Gargamuni: Still, they're not a good bank. They have three . . . Prabhupāda: They are not . . . it is a small cultivator's cooperative. Gargamuni: I wouldn't trust a small bank. At any time they can lose. They only have three or four branches. Jayapatākā: They're backed by the Reserve Bank. Gargamuni: It doesn't matter. Jayapatākā: What do you mean, it doesn't matter? Gargamuni: No big bank . . . (indistinct) . . . what big bank? Prabhupāda: Then who is going to deposit five lakhs of rupees with them? That is not possible. Jayapatākā: Yes, that's all right, but as far as the bank goes . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. We can go on without the business. We cannot deposit. Jayapatākā: If any banker goes there, they'll want a deposit. But if a big bank . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. But why should we deposit five lakhs of rupees? The money value is decreasing daily. Jayapatākā: We get credit. Prabhupāda: If you deposit five lakhs now, it will decrease value in five, ten months. The purchasing power of money is decreasing. Now what you can purchase with five lakhs of rupees, after five years you'll require ten lakhs . So your money will decrease. And if you invest that money in land, after five years it will increase to its full extent. So why should we waste our money? What is the benefit? Gargamuni: The farmers don't keep their money in the banks. The government is trying to force the farmers to keep their money in the bank. The farmers don't want to do it. Prabhupāda: Farmers' policy is if they have got money, they purchase land. Therefore they are making ceiling. The whole policy is not so good. Farmers, as soon as they get some money, they want to invest the land, but the ceiling . . . so they cannot invest money in the land, they give to the bank. And as soon as you keep money in the bank it will decrease the value. This is . . . Gargamuni: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Money is decreased, value of, all over the world. Because it is not money actually; it is paper, cheating. Real money is gold, they will not allow to keep this gold. The whole policy is vicious. If I purchase gold with five lakhs of rupees, then it is real money, and after five years I can sell it seven lakhs . That they will not allow. Therefore I . . . my policy is that whatever money is there, spend. Don't keep. In land, and produce food. That is the best use of. All buildings, government, there is no need of. And instead of keeping money and take interest, you print books. That is also good. You can sell. Or you purchase land for producing food. Gargamuni: If we stock money, then there'll be no preaching. But if we print books, then we have to sell the books. So that is preaching. Prabhupāda: Therefore I am insisting all over, "Print any book." Never mind either Hindi or English or any . . . print book and keep it in stock, nicely. Gargamuni: And gradually we will sell. Then we will preach. Otherwise, if we put it in . . . Prabhupāda: That is the purpose of my Bhaktivedanta Trust. Fifty percent must be spent for printing and fifty percent for building. That's all. No money. Don't keep any account. Gargamuni: Then the government will never get envious, because there's nothing there. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we haven't got to keep so many accountant, auditors, and other nonsense, unnecessary expenditure. As soon as there is collection, invest the money in some building or in making some book, book printing. Follow this policy. I am very much eager. I have got money here and there, but I want to spend it in this way. So therefore I am advising take this. We shall invest renovating them and in developing them. Spend money. Don't keep it. Jayapatākā: Yes. So I'll tell them our policy is changed. We don't keep any more money in fixed deposit because it's a losing bargain? Prabhupāda: That's it. Actually it is losing. Actually it is losing. Every day the price . . . just like the price of rice has increased. Jayapatākā: It is up and down. *Prabhupāda: Up and down, now . . . take it. When it goes up it does not come down, generally. So this is practical example. Two months ago you were purchasing two rupees—now two*-eighty. So where is the value of the money? Gargamuni: If we invest in books . . . just like this little pamphlet I printed. It cost me fifty paisa . If we sell it in one month . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: . . . then we will get fifty paisa profit. We will make double our investment. Prabhupāda: That was nicely . . . that was nicely printed. So in this way invest in books or land. We don't want to keep cash. Jayapatākā: And if they want to keep branch or not, that is up to them. We can't give them any money. If they want to keep branch or not, that's up to them. Prabhupāda: That should be up to them. If they keep branch we can take that. They'll go on. Gargamuni: We will tell them frankly that for us to invest in books is more profitable, because after one month we get more. Prabhupāda: We cannot keep money, and without any . . . they will give interest. What is that interest? And he said we have printed fifty paisa and selling hundred paisa . So that much interest they cannot give. They'll give, utmost, ten percent. Ten percent per annum—not even one percent in a month. Gargamuni: Your books will be our bank. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got business. Why shall I keep in the bank? This is the policy. If your money is idle, we can spend it in our books, in our purchasing land, in temple, constructing temple, developing . . . so where you got that water? Water's there? Don't touch that water. Hari-śauri: No, there's one bucket of mixed with half a bucket of hot water. Yesterday what happened, the tank, some blockage there was . . . (end) Conversation -- August 20, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: . . . disorder. (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . everything to Bombay. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It is very convenient. Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that is better. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I moved everything to Bombay. Prabhupāda: The main distribution should be from Bombay. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Now because this Usha Printers is much bigger also, and we're getting better quality. Prabhupāda: Saurabha, what news, Bombay? Saurabha: The festival was a very great success. We counted approximately, for the last two days, twenty thousand people must have come. Prabhupāda: Somebody said five hundred. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Somebody came and said that six hundred people Janmāṣṭamī night. Saurabha: It was packed. They were . . . Prabhupāda: I was surprised. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was surprised myself that six hundred people on Janmāṣṭamī night. Saurabha: They were everywhere. Prabhupāda: Who is that nonsense who came and said this? Who is that rascal? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a poor thirteen*-year-old boy. Prabhupāda: Oh. You believed the boy? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but he's . . . Prabhupāda: He's authority. Here you take the information. Why did you believe the boy? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he wasn't here. He just told me last night. I asked him. Prabhupāda: Then how did you believe that boy? Five hundred. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was very surprised myself. Prabhupāda: I know that so many people come, even in ordinary years. Saurabha: They were sitting everywhere, even on the balconies and in the scaffolding. They were everywhere. It was very crowded. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The press and the television people came? Every year the television comes. They televised this? Saurabha: The Film News. Prabhupāda: I was surprised when I heard five hundred—they boycotted or what? Saurabha: For the abhiṣeka ceremony, that lasted about an hour, up till one o'clock, and everyone remained. There were thousands of people. They were just everywhere around. Prabhupāda: I will give you one śālagrāma-śilā. So as it is being worshiped in Māyāpur, it should be worshiped in Bombay also. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to start it now, or in the new temple? Prabhupāda: No, now. Śālagrāma-śilā . It is not difficult. You have seen śālagrāma-śilā ? Saurabha: I have seen. Prabhupāda: So you'll take it and . . . Saurabha: I'm going back tomorrow night. Prabhupāda: So you can take it. So what other news? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What other news, Prabhupāda? Saurabha: Well, now the festival is over, all the holidays are gone, so there's a big crew of people working now. It goes very fast. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Saurabha: And we're putting in the walls of your room. We have started . . . Prabhupāda: What is the length and breadth of my room? Saurabha: Well, it has different shapes. It's difficult to say. But the main room, the sitting room, is about, altogether, about 900 square foot. (loud cracking sound) Prabhupāda: Oh, this business is going on. Devotee: Mahāṁśa went down and stopped it. Prabhupāda: Everyone can go, but the business will go on. Saurabha: So that is your sitting room. Then you have a bedroom. Prabhupāda: What is the sitting room? Saurabha: That is about 900, no 850 square foot. Prabhupāda: Eight hundred means length and breadth? Saurabha: I'll have to think. Because it consists of three rooms. Prabhupāda: So people were enthusiastic to come to our festival? Saurabha: Oh, yes. Very much. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Saurabha: I mean, this place, when it is finished, it will be the most popular temple in Bombay. Prabhupāda: They have done. Saurabha: It's the biggest. It's already the biggest. So this is the building (unfolding plans), and these three rooms—this is 32 by 32—is your sitting room, where you can receive people. Then here is your bedroom, and here is the secretary room, here is kitchen, and here is servant room. So personally you have this, four rooms. Prabhupāda: What are these? Saurabha: This is the elevator. Prabhupāda: Oh. Saurabha: This is elevator. Then this is the entry where the people can wait in case many people are there. Here's the secretary. This is the kitchen and . . . Hari-śauri: Bathroom? Saurabha: That is . . . that is . . . like those things come out here. That is all connected with the room. So your bedroom, you have one toilet here and one shower here, each side. Prabhupāda: That's good. Saurabha: This is very nice, quite big. Then on the roof you have practically the whole roof, plus a room in the middle. Here is a room on the roof, the next slide, room here, and then you have just a nice terrace and very nice breeze. Prabhupāda: All sides open. *Saurabha: Yes, this is open. Well, we have arches here, just arches, for the . . . now we are finishing for the temple the second*-floor slab. That should be finished at the end of the month, and then one more month, the main slab of the darśana-maṇḍapa , and then we start towers, which we already started now precasting. We have rings. We make rings which we put up later, one by one. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is by ring. Saurabha: Yes, we make rings out of concrete, and then we . . . with a rod we keep holes in it, and then we just put them on top and it's . . . because for Māyāpur, we get into Māyāpur, we're trying it out if that is possible to do that there, because there are so many domes. So this system is very practical because you can cast at site, and then with a crane you bring it up and then it's fixed. Because this short ring, to make a tower on top of a building is very troublesome. Prabhupāda: This ring, concrete ring? Saurabha: Yes, concrete. Reinforced. Most of the rings are one foot and some, when it is straight, you make two feet. It depends. Then all the guest rooms we have marble on the floor, because that is very much liked in Bombay especially, to have marble. The halls, they are kota stone. Prabhupāda: So there is proposal to provide a bank? Saurabha: Yes. I have the area already marked out. There's about four or five banks that are very interested. Prabhupāda: Which bank are interested? Saurabha: The Indian Overseas Bank. That is the bank most interested at the time now. Then the State Bank of India. Prabhupāda: State Bank of India. That is better. Saurabha: That is better. Then the Syndicate Bank and the . . . Prabhupāda: So the charges will be four rupees. Saurabha: Four or four and a half. Prabhupāda: Yes. So best. Whoever gives the best. Saurabha: Yeah. And then one year in advance payment? Prabhupāda: Yes, if we get from . . . Saurabha: Of course, the location is excellent. It is . . . this is . . . there's two towers, and here is the road. Here is that, our road, going to our land in the back. Here is the main entry. Here is the temple in the back. So these two on the ground floor are meant for bank. So people can come right from here, and here is an entry. So place is the best for the bank. So they all want that place. So you think State Bank of India is the best? Prabhupāda: No, as you think. Saurabha: I don't know very much, but Gopāla said that the Indian Overseas Bank is an upcoming bank as well as Syndicate Bank, so they may be more eager for this. Prabhupāda: Syndicate Bank is not very . . . Saurabha: I also think to have a big bank is better. Prabhupāda: Big bank is better. And who pays the best price. Saurabha: The best. And also the facilities. Now, in the floor we start tiling, the basement floor . . . under the Deities there we have a basement. So there we have started the flooring, tiling, and now we have decided on all the other parts of the building, for the stone. So they promised, they say they guarantee, that at the end of this year the building—that means the guesthouse—will be completed. And of course, that includes the temple. The only thing which will definitely go on is the marble work, the carving. That is a very big job. But that we can always continue. That is mainly outside work, finishing. So that we get the inside ready for the opening. Prabhupāda: ISKCON Juhu? That is sufficient address? *Saurabha: Well, this was hand*-delivered. It would be nice if . . . I think now it is sufficient. Many letters come like that now. Prabhupāda: No, we are famous now, Juhu. Saurabha: But your official letters, the name of the street is called Nyer Road. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Saurabha: The name of the street is called A. B. Nyer Road. I never knew that. I thought it was the road in the back. Prabhupāda: No, they said Gandhi . . . Juhu Road? Saurabha: No. Now on the latest letter that I got, I think, from the government it was written A. B. Nyer Road. Maybe it was an old letter, I don't know. When we submitted the new plans for the gurukula building, there was a letter I had to sign about the work, that we have given that to the architect, an official letter so that we can get the permission. And it was written that the plot was on the A. B. Nyer Road, our land. So I inquired, and they said, "Yes, that's the name of that road." Prabhupāda: Is there any signboard, A. B. Nyer Road? Saurabha: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Saurabha: That is only in the back near that new hotel, that Holiday Inn Hotel. This one portion says A. B. Nyer Road. So that road goes like this—here is the Juhu Market, and the road goes . . . Prabhupāda: No, we go on as Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. Saurabha: Yes, that is . . . you don't have to say the road. Prabhupāda: Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. *Saurabha: Yes. Everyone knows. It's no problem. Now, the altar of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, I sent you a picture that showed four columns—one here, one here, one here, and then the top. And here is Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, and here is Lalitā*-Viśākhā. Those columns here, they're not in the front but they're in the back only. In front it is open. Prabhupāda: Open. That's nice. Saurabha: So then that is all right to use that one? Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: Because we need more breadth, this is different size. So that work has been started also. And it will be covered in silk. Prabhupāda: You have seen this temple? Saurabha: I have not gone around, but it looks very nice. Prabhupāda: It is after your design. Saurabha: Yes. But I haven't been in Hyderabad for at least eight months. Prabhupāda: They have done nice. Saurabha: Yes. Mahāṁśa Swami has done very nice. There's many good workers also in the south of India. We had a lot of difficulty in getting those men from Vṛndāvana sent to America for Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Is he anxious to get them? Saurabha: Well, simply because they didn't speak English they delayed so much. Prabhupāda: Now, Kīrtanānanda did not show any anxiety for that. He did not show any anxiety like that, he requires that. So why it is? Saurabha: Well, at that time they wanted. Prabhupāda: That time wanted? That is finished now. Don't bother. Saurabha: All right. Because I spent a lot of time in trying to arrange that. Prabhupāda: That was not successful. That's all right. Saurabha: No. That work is going nice also, isn't it, flooring especially, the marble work. Prabhupāda: Marble. Saurabha: In New Vrindavan. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them do in their own way. Saurabha: They practically do everything themselves. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Saurabha: That is their greatness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Their men are being trained up. Saurabha: That is actually the best. Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: They will be engaged always like that. *Prabhupāda: They have got marble*-polishing machine. Saurabha: Yes. Last night I spoke with Jayapatākā Mahārāja, and he says that the land requisition will be in about two months or something. So whether we should go ahead with trying to purchase land before, or wait till . . .? Prabhupāda: Purchase land? Saurabha: Well, that particular area where the main temple will come, we need about . . . Prabhupāda: So let us wait. Saurabha: Let us wait. So can I start in the meantime to develop the plans? Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: To contact engineers and everything? Now, if I have to pay some money for that type of work, do I take it from the Bombay . . .? It is not much, but some money is there, some expense is there. Prabhupāda: So . . . (break) . . . immediately. You have waited. Why not wait till the researching is there? Saurabha: I have some people, they do practically things for free. They work on it. But they only do that because they know in the future we're going to do it. So if there is too much delay, they may lose faith. *Prabhupāda: Delay? But that's a fact. Unless government gives us land . . . (break) . . . but we . . . we are not Kṛṣṇa. But if we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious strong, then our position is strong. If there is slackness, then they will come to kill us. That we have to see. Āpani ācari' prabhu jīve śikhāilā . Our behavior should be very clear. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." Then it will be . . . this Aghāsura, Bakāsura will come and . . . in the beginning there was Aghāsura, Pūtanā. That Devānanda, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Film," he wanted to do some harm. And he is gone, finished. Nobody talks of Devānanda. They talk of our movement. So if you remain strong in your spiritual activities, these Aghāsura, Bakāsura will come, go. But we should take precaution and counteract to reduce them. Real strength will remain from Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma's strength. Balarāma. Balarāma means strength. Nāyam ātmā bala hīna na labhyaḥ. If you are not supported by Balarāma, then it is not possible. So we have got our Balarāma, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple. Now in Europe we have got Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In France. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Which place? Outside? The farm? Prabhupāda: Very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Exactly like Vṛndāvana, I heard. The Deities are exactly . . . *Prabhupāda: Nitāi*-Gaura and Balarāma. Brajendra-nandana jei kṛṣṇa, śaci-suta haila sei : "He is now Śacī-suta." Balarāma haila nitāi : "And Balarāma has become Nitāi." That's all. These two brothers. And devotees are very nice. So if our devotees remain . . . two hundred devotees there are. Yes. And they are taking prasāda on the open lawn. Very nice. Presently they are growing vegetables sufficient for their consumption and for the Paris temple. Fresh, nice vegetables. Flowers. Grains also they have got—barley and wheat. Milk also. Their own cows. Gargamuni: Cows. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So if there is milk, there is food grain, there is vegetable, so what do you want more? Enough we can grow. They have got two hundred acres of land. Some portion of the land they are utilizing. That is becoming sufficient for them. And if they grow the whole land, they can make good trade. Just like in Philadelphia they are producing so much milk, they are selling outside fifteen hundred dollars per month. Fifteen hundred dollars, how much it is? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fourteen thousand. Saurabha: Twelve thousand. Prabhupāda: That is their income. The Philadelphia they have organized very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Port Royal farm. Very nice. Prabhupāda: And this Paramānanda, he is expert. He's very expert. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He was in New Vrindavan before. Prabhupāda: Yes. So he could not keep in line with Kīrtanānanda. (laughs) Gargamuni: I thought he was in New York farm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the New York farm. Prabhupāda: That is. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in Philadelphia. Gargamuni: Yes, I heard it is very good there. Prabhupāda: His wife is . . . they are making . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Satyabhāmā. Prabhupāda: . . . cāpāṭis . When she brought, it was so thick. And "How shall I eat this?" But when I ate, it was so nice. Soft and sweet. I ate everything. Jayapatākā: Devotees have brought from the farm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe she should come here to cook for you. *Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. No, they are very happy. All the boys and girls are very happy. Sit down. So that I want, that live happily and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want unnecessary luxury. Anartha. Anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Anartha should be reduced, nil; bare necessities. Anartha . . . just like this material things we require for preaching. That is not anartha . But when it is used for sense gratification, that is anartha . Anything for sense gratification, that is unwanted, anartha . And anything for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is spiritual. Jayapatākā: Anukūla . Prabhupāda: Anukūla. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). So whatever we are using, that is not material. It is all spiritual. Hmm. So what are these? So . . . Mahabaleshwar . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I've cancelled it. I'll send tickets for . . . Prabhupāda: So two strong opinion was against. One Kanadaji, another Gargamuni. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Another? Prabhupāda: Gargamuni. He was also not in favor, going to hill station. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, that's fine. When you come to Bombay in October, you can go, October or November, whenever you come . . . Prabhupāda: Hill station, I have also heard—I do not know—that during rainy season they get some diarrhea. Gargamuni: Get some what? Prabhupāda: Get some diarrhea. And that hill diarrhea is not . . . Gargamuni: Good. Prabhupāda: Not at all. Gargamuni: Best season for hill station is May and June. May and June. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's when most people go—in the summer months. Gargamuni: Very nice. Very warm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Summer period. Saurabha: Most people in the rainy season, they all leave that place, many houses. They close it all. Gargamuni: Yes. In Simla and Nainital everyone leaves after June. Saurabha: But after the rainy season? Gargamuni: Yes, in October again they go back. Prabhupāda: Rainy season is bad on the whole. Saurabha: That place, yeah. But the rest of the year it's excellent. Prabhupāda: That all right. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But I've told that Mr. Malhotra to come and see you here . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . directly, because he wants to meet you. Actually he wasn't . . . after meeting you, he'll decide. Thirty*-five acres of land. It has a dak bungalow. Saurabha: Yes, we went there about one and a half months ago. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We saw the place. Prabhupāda: So can you . . . you have . . . give me a site plans. Saurabha: Yes, I . . . approximately? Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: You want me to show you? Prabhupāda: No, you can . . . not immediately . . . you can give me very nice, where is the bungalow, where is the . . . you can give. Saurabha: But these two people, they are very much in favor. They were all the time, when we went . . . Prabhupāda: No, if it is nice, we shall take it. Why not? Saurabha: It is beautiful. It's very beautiful. Prabhupāda: It's near Bombay. So if you can go and come . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bombay is going to be so big when the building is completed. Saurabha: It's on a hill, but the land is flat so you can cultivate it. Prabhupāda: So it is very good. Saurabha: It's excellent. And from there you can see down. You look down, and then you see the river Kṛṣṇā. Prabhupāda: It is a plateau. Saurabha: Yes, a plateau. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: See the river Kṛṣṇā. Saurabha: Yes, you can just see the river flowing down there. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is beautiful spot. Saurabha: It's very, very beautiful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And he wants us to develop it. Prabhupāda: Oh, we develop. We shall spend lakhs , two lakhs , three lakhs , as you . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So he wants us to give him a proposal . . . Saurabha: And it has been . . . they have been doing agriculture before, there, so it's in very good state. You don't have to do much. Prabhupāda: Oh, then we shall take it. What is use of going? He has seen already. Take it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no, he wanted you to see it. That was . . . Prabhupāda: That, we shall go in October. We shall go there. So when Saurabha has seen, that is my seeing. You give me a site plan. And we shall take it and develop it. Gargamuni: So many of our men get ill health. They can go there . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: . . . and then come back. Then we don't have to send them to America . . . Prabhupāda: No. Gargamuni: . . . because of being sick. Prabhupāda: No. Gargamuni: We need a place—health. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda wrote . . . he wrote that to me last year, to get a hill station . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. The Mahabaleshwar is well known. Yes. Jayapatākā: They have nice cows there, nice vegetables. Saurabha: Oh, yes. They has that. Everywhere, that . . . what is the name of that root we ate on ekādaśī ? Prabhupāda: So take it and develop according to your plan. Develop. Saurabha: It's a place known for strawberry cultivation. Prabhupāda: What do you think will be the expenditure to develop it into a nice place? Saurabha: For agriculture I can't say, but according to me, it is all level. They have leveled everything out. It's like a terrace. It's just . . . we can start growing anything there—potatoes, grains, strawberries, fruits. Prabhupāda: Now for residential quarter there is already bungalow. Saurabha: There is a bungalow with four big . . . it's a big bungalow. And stone is available there, just like here in Hyderabad. At the back of the land it's like a rocky area. One small portion that is so much stone there available, so you can just build from the stone anything. The land can be used for the cement, instead of cement. So very cheap you can build there. Prabhupāda: One lakh rupees? No. Saurabha: Well, it depends how many devotees are going to stay. But for a farm, I think . . . Prabhupāda: Say ten rooms. Saurabha: Ten rooms. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The gṛhasthas from Bombay could be moved over there. Prabhupāda: No, gṛhasthas can go to the farm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they can go from Bombay to there. They can cultivate our farm. Saurabha: For sixty thousand rupees we can build sufficient accommodation, and then the rest we need for . . . Prabhupāda: So we can spend up to one lakh and make more rooms. Saurabha: Yes. And when you come there, the house is sufficient for you to stay. It's very nice. Big rooms. Prabhupāda: So we shall go in October. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: October. Saurabha: There's three big wells available. Three big wells are there. Prabhupāda: Wells? Very good. Saurabha: Three. And according to me, these people, they also want to invest money in that project. The people themselves, they want to give also money for developing. No? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. They want to turn it over to us . . . Prabhupāda: And that do. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . if we give them guarantee that we will develop it. Prabhupāda: No, no, we shall do. You guarantee that. The decision is made. So you can take . . . (indistinct) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And from what I've heard, this Malhotra is a very—Girirāja told me—very, very nice man. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is not going to . . . he's a very, very rich man himself, so he's not really trying to cheat us or anything. Prabhupāda: That decision is made. It is a very well known place, Mahabaleshwar. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Mahabaleshwar. Saurabha: Just on the other side of the plateau you have that RMA, ARA? No. That institute . . . (indistinct discussion) Prabhupāda: Aurobindo? Saurabha: No. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Mahabaleshwar is also the summer capital of Mahara . . . all the government ministers have their meetings there. And this Bhogilal Patel's son, he was saying that he knows all the big people there, so can introduce me to the chairman of the local municipality . . . Prabhupāda: So we must have a big temple there. Saurabha: MRA? It's a moral institute. It's very big. Prabhupāda: MRA? Saurabha: MRA, yes. Prabhupāda: Moral . . .? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Moral Re*-armament. Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: It's just on the other side. Prabhupāda: So it is still existing? Saurabha: Oh, yes. The building is excellent, but nothing is going on. Only twice a year they have a meeting. But it's very well built. Prabhupāda: Their propaganda is that, "You . . ." Christian program. "You do whatever you like. You simply admit. Confession. Then you'll be . . ." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Atone. Prabhupāda: This is morality. "You commit immorality as much as you like, you simply admit it. Then it's right." This is their . . . they do not want to stop immorality. "You do, and don't hide it—you admit." But persons are so shameless that they will continually do, and they have no shamefulness to hide even. That is the Christian theory that, "Our religion is so . . . we may do. We are unable to remain without any sin. Christ will excuse us." Is it not? This is going on. Saurabha: They're also criticized a lot there. They have been criticized a lot there locally. People, they think they are CIA. Prabhupāda: Oh. Us? Saurabha: No. The MRA. Because they have big meetings twice a year only, and they just . . . Prabhupāda: The MRA, they are Americans? Saurabha: Yes. Most are Europeans, Americans. Most. Prabhupāda: This movement was started by President Eisenhower with the help of a Christian priest. Saurabha: Now the son of Gandhi, he is the main president . . . Prabhupāda: Who? Saurabha: The son of Mahatma Gandhi. Prabhupāda: Shri Ramdas Gandhi? Saurabha: He's the head man of that institute there. And then some very big European industrialists, they are also involved. They've spent two crores of rupees on that complex. It's very well maintained also. I went into the building. It's excellent. But there is nobody. Prabhupāda: Eh? Nobody. (break) (loud kīrtana in background) So he can immediately come. Mahāṁśa: The door is ready, so when you go for a bath . . . Prabhupāda: No, he can come. Mahāṁśa: Now he can come? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa Swami is . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: He's very sincere. Prabhupāda: And everyone likes him. Hari-śauri: Yes. He's very popular with the Life Members. Prabhupāda: He has no enemy. Nobody has complained against him. *Hari-śauri: He's very even*-tempered. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Neither he has complained against anybody. He does not complain, and nobody complains against him. That means . . . (indistinct) . . . his mother was very much sorry. Now she is very happy. Hari-śauri: He joined in the West? Prabhupāda: He is Parsi. Hari-śauri: He's not Indian. Prabhupāda: No, he is Indian. India, there is Parsi community. Indian Parsi means that originally they come from Iran. Hari-śauri: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Prabhupāda: They are Iranian. But on account of Muhammadans forcibly standing within the way . . . Aurangzeb came. Muhammadans, they came. They fled from Iran sixth century, and took shelter in the western part of India. They took shelter in Gujarat. Persia . . . I think Iran was known as Persia. Hari-śauri: Yes. At least that area, anyway. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are known as Parsi. In their ritualistic ceremonies some . . . (indistinct) . . . married. Hari-śauri: Yes. I saw all the women, they keep themselves covered and everything. Prabhupāda: Sārī ? Hari-śauri: Most of them were wearing trousers. Prabhupāda: No. Parsis are well known for sārīs . Hari-śauri: In Iran, though, I saw most of the women wear . . . under those black veils they were actually wearing trousers. Prabhupāda: Not wearing sārīs ? (long pause) Prabhupāda: We have no problems except this immigration. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's the main thing. Prabhupāda: Otherwise we have . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: By the time they've finished all their investigations, they'll . . . eventually they'll have to let us come. At least maybe in Calcutta it will be easier. In Calcutta, with the authorities there, if we get this . . . if we start building Māyāpur, then they'll be a lot more lenient about letting us stay. Prabhupāda: That is already . . . Hari-śauri: Yes. They've taken the best area of . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I think this leg swelling is gone. Hari-śauri: Yes. It only came when we were in Iran because of the altitude. Then, as soon as we left, it went away again. That doctor in New York, he said it was because when your blood pressure goes up, then it's difficult for the heart to pump. So then fluid forms in the leg because of the bad blood circulation. Prabhupāda: That was his diagnosis. Hari-śauri: Yes. So as soon as we came . . . like in New Vrindavan, a little bit high, then again it changes over. But then, as soon as we left, then it stopped again. Prabhupāda: Then this Mahabaleshwar will not be . . . Hari-śauri: No. If it's very high, the altitude will not be so good. As soon as we arrived in Iran, immediately the next day the swelling was there. I don't know how high this will be, but New Vrindavan is not so high. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes? Hari-śauri: I think someone said about 1200 feet. Not very much. But that may be because the atmosphere in the hills is a little rarified as well. Prabhupāda: I had vision of . . . (indistinct) . . . more than going to the hill . . . (indistinct) . . . it is higher than sea level anyway. Therefore this northern portion of India is called upper. Hari-śauri: Where the mountains begin. Prabhupāda: It is very higher than the sea level. It is called upper because it is much higher, very high from the ocean. But I was . . . Vṛndāvana is also that part of . . . (indistinct) . . . only Bengal is not upper. Hari-śauri: Yes, it's low. Prabhupāda: It is near the sea, so . . . (end) Conversation A -- August 21, 1976, Hyderabad Jayapatākā: I was with him when he posted the letter. Prabhupāda: But where is that? Jayapatākā: I'll ask him when I see him. Prabhupāda: You have got any copy? No. Jayapatākā: I didn't keep a copy. Prabhupāda: When they submit? Quarterly? Jayapatākā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Part of the money is contribution for construction of my house. Ten thousand. Ten thousand dollars? Jayapatākā: Ten thousand dollars, I think. Jayatīrtha mentioned. Prabhupāda: I am writing one letter to the government that I work hard, I print my books and they are selling, and if I bring the money to construct temple, why people are envious? What is the wrong there? Rather, I should be encouraged that I am bringing so much money in India, foreign exchange, by my hard labor. So why they are envious? Why . . . I have sent this to the governor. Jayapatākā: To the governor? Prabhupāda: Governor, Mr. Chandra Reddy. "Why? Wherefrom they are getting money? Where? why?" That is my money by hard labor, that's all. Is it wrong if a man works hard and gets money in foreign country and bring in India? Gargamuni: I think they cannot believe that a sādhu could have so much money from selling books. *Prabhupāda: That may be beyond their dream, but I am not so*-called sādhu . I am trying to execute the orders of my Guru Mahārāja, predecessor. I am not a so-called sādhu , taking a saffron robe, begging for fulfilling the belly. Gargamuni: They have to accept you as an international leader. Prabhupāda: I must be international leader. Yes, they are surprised how . . . this is unique in the history, that a single person's books are sold in so many large quantities. I don't think any author has sold so many books. Huh? *Gargamuni: In some of the American magazines they publish a best*-seller list of books, and the number of books we sell goes beyond the best-seller list. Prabhupāda: And especially philosophical and religious books. These people do not touch. (laughs) Untouchable. Has even Vivekananda has presented so many books? A small book, Thus spake . . . Gargamuni: "Thus spake." (laughs) Prabhupāda: And what he will write? What does he know? Simply bluffers. Chaliats . Our Bon Mahārāja is also one of the chaliats . What is the English for chaliat ? Jayapatākā: Bluffers? Prabhupāda: Chaliat means he has no assets but he shows that he is very big. That is called chaliat . Jayapatākā: Bluffer. Prabhupāda: Bluffer? Our Tīrtha Mahārāja's Caitanya Research Institute. Here is an Indian Institute for . . . what is that? Bon Mahārāja's? Institute for Indian Culture and Philosophy. But where is your book? You have seen that Tīrtha Mahārāja's one book? The Vedānta as Caitanya Has Seen , like that. And he has given a picture of himself with effulgence on his head. You have seen that? Gargamuni: No, I have not seen that one. In all the mandiras where his picture is there, they have all the ācāryas pictures, but only his picture has the effulgence. Prabhupāda: Such a rascal. He has given Prabhupāda's picture, no effulgence; his picture, effulgence. He's such a rascal. Publicly he's showing. Jayapatākā: But unfortunately that had to be painted in. He could not just show . . . Gargamuni: There's no natural . . . Prabhupāda: Could not illuminate. Remain in darkness. Effulgence in darkness. And such a shameless man, he is giving effulgence in the picture. (break) Gargamuni: . . . gradually we can see that this Society is replacing the Ramakrishna Mission there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gargamuni: We can see practically that this Society, your Society, is replacing this Ramakrishna Mission more and more. Prabhupāda: Why Ramakrishna Mission? We are far above the Ramakrishna Mission. Gargamuni: Yes. As far as the people go. They are all saying "Hare Kṛṣṇa" and . . . they don't even mention . . . sometimes they ask us, "Do you know who Ramakrishna is?" And we say, "No, we have never heard of him." They go, "You have not heard of Ramakrishna?" We say: "No. We only know Prabhupāda and Lord Caitanya. Everybody knows that, and nobody knows who is Ramakrishna." Jayapatākā: They do not know what to say. *Gargamuni: Then they don't know what to say. They say: "You mean you don't know that Chicago Address?" We say: "No. What? Oh, when Prabhupāda went for Ratha*-yātrā? Yes, that we know." Prabhupāda: That Chicago Address was the worst. He is defying, "Why you give credit to God?" This is the . . . we have seen that Chicago Address. Now they are eliminating. Most blasphemous. One Christian priest, he was surprised, "What kind of nonsense these Indians are . . ." He asked him, "How you are speaking in this way, 'Why you are giving credit to God?' " He said like that. "You are working, why you are giving credit to God?" This is Vivekananda's realization. And he created God. A illiterate priest, he become God. Because he said, "I am God." That is the proof. Jayapatākā: Because he said . . .? *Prabhupāda: "I am God. I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." Therefore his name is Ramakrishna. He was Gadadhar Chatterji, and he said to his disciple, Vivekananda, first*-class rogue that, "I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." So he took it. This is evidence. Because Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the Supreme." So he said: "I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." This is the evidence. What Kṛṣṇa can say, he can say also. This institution is the most harmful institution for Vedic culture. *Jayapatākā: At one town, Beturhari, that . . . it is called Nakashiparathana. That's about thirty miles north of Māyāpur. One day in advance they advertised that we were coming and we were having a public showing of the cinema and Nitāi*-Gaura ārati . And they had one maidan called Library Maidan. There was one, like, stage there. Prabhupāda: It is in West Bengal? Jayapatākā: West Bengal. That's in Nadia District. Just before Phulasi, south of Phulasi. And when we came there and I saw the police in the afternoon, we told them we were going to have a function. So they said that they would send a few policemen. They said that, "We will send some policemen for keeping the order." But that night so many people came . . . the space could only hold four thousand, but another two, three thousand people came, and they were turned away because of insufficient space. So they were standing on the wall and on the rooftops all around, and all you could see were people's heads, just like an ocean. The policemen, after it was over . . . when I chanted, I chanted, "Everyone please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And I chanted the full mantra three times. They chanted so loud that even two, three blocks away people thought that the heavens were shouting. It was like a thunder . . . Prabhupāda: Thunderbolt. Jayapatākā: Thunderbolt. And the policemen said that never—even the chief minister came here once—not even half so many people came, and that was announced for one week. This was announced for one day, and more people came than ever before. He said: "This really shows me that the people are hungry for spiritual answer. They have no one to lead them." Gargamuni: And these leaders are simply envious, that's all. The only reason why they're not helping us is because they're envious. Because so many people are interested and no one is interested in them. Prabhupāda: Anyway, our Gītār Gān is selling. *Jayapatākā: Yes. When we stopped at Burdwan, in one place, one boy sold 198 Bhagavad*-gītās , Gītār Gān , without moving. So many Gītās . . . people were just crowding around taking Gītās so much that the local . . . there were some bookstores. They also came, and they said that "We cannot get wholesale? We have never seen such a book sell so well." Gargamuni: Even people come to the temple in Calcutta, they want ten, fifteen copies. Village people. Poor people. They come and say: " Gītār Gān , where is that? I have heard." And they take ten or fifteen copies, they wrap it in their cloth and bring it to the village. It is becoming very popular. Wherever you go, "Where is this Gītār Gān ?" Jayapatākā: I went to Writers' Building, I had four or five copies with me. I didn't go for selling, I went to see ministers. But all the peons, they were buying the Gītār Gāns from me. I sold out. People were coming up with rupees saying: " Gītār Gān ." I didn't have any more. Prabhupāda: Out of their own accord they . . . Gargamuni: No, they've heard of it. It's becoming famous. Jayapatākā: That's our inspiration, that if we can make Gītār Gān and Your Divine Grace famous all over Bengal, then we will feel that our mission . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, I could not write any . . . I wrote some Bengali book, that is now . . . it can be collected from Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha. I continually wrote one book, Bhagavāner Kathā. Jayapatākā: People are begging us for books in Bengali written by Your Divine Grace. We tell them that . . . (aside) There's no time. Prabhupāda: That Subhaga translated. But his translations are not so . . . Gargamuni: No. There's always trouble with translation in local languages, Hindi or Gujarati. Prabhupāda: They do not know the philosophy. Gargamuni: No. And they do the wrong words. *Jayapatākā: Now they have a . . . I put a two*-man team. A two- or three-man team. Subhaga, there's one boy Kiśora, and, what's his name, Tatpur. Between the three of them they check and recheck. Prabhupāda: Tatpur is educated? Jayapatākā: He's got a B.A. or something. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gargamuni: Tatpur has a B.A.? *Jayapatākā: Yes. He doesn't write himself. He writes in old fashion. But he corrects for just double*-checking philosophy. Editing. And this Kiśora, he was a M.A., and he previously used to write. He was an honor student at Calcutta University, and he used to freelance write in Bengali. So his style is very nice. Prabhupāda: Why not engage him in simply . . . Jayapatākā: He is translating now our . . . Gargamuni: That's all he does. Jayapatākā: That, and he greets the guests. He's also good at membership. Prabhupāda: Gītār Gān has become popular. Gargamuni: Yes. That name has become very popular. Everyone is asking: "Where is this Gītār Gān ?" Prabhupāda: So you can register the name so that others may not . . . Jayapatākā: Yes, otherwise they'll cash in on it. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can register it the name. Patron registration. Copyright registration. Gargamuni: I think it says it in the book. Jayapatākā: It says, but you should make sure it's registered. Gargamuni: Gopāla, he printed it. I don't know if he had it registered. It says in the book, "All Rights Reserved." Prabhupāda: That is your statement. But it must be legally protected. Jayapatākā: They may check up and find out not so and then do it. That Bhagavāner Kathā was printed in what book? Do you know? Prabhupāda: They have got a paper— Gauḍīya . *Gargamuni: These books that Gaura*-Govinda, he wants to get printed. How do we know what is being said? I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the . . . one Oria gentleman will come, and get him to read this book. Then I can understand where he stands. Gargamuni: Because he has . . . the Topmost yoga is ready, but I didn't want to print that yet until . . . Prabhupāda: Never mind. I'll . . . after hearing this book I'll let him know. Jayapatākā: After they write everything, then I also read it in Bengali. I can . . . and if I see something that seems a little impersonal or something, I say that . . . Prabhupāda: Correct it. Jayapatākā: Yes, correct it. That much I can do. Prabhupāda: Impersonal idea is in everyone's head. "God has no legs, no head. Simply he has got head." Jayapatākā: I think I can also write to the . . . previously in 1971–72 at the paṇḍāls you used to speak in Bengali some days. I'll write for those tapes. We can . . . Gargamuni: Oh, those tapes. I asked for those tapes so long ago. If we can get those Hindi and Bengali tapes we could have them transcribed, and they can make very good essays. Jayapatākā: All the big English Back to Godhead articles are actually your lectures simply transcribed. So we could transcribe those tapes, and we could have originally your words. Gargamuni: Yes. There were ten days when Prabhupāda spoke in Bengali. Jayapatākā: Twice. Once in Deshapriya Park and once at Maidan. Even today people talk about both festivals. Prabhupāda: Bhagavāner Kathā. Jayapatākā: Bhagavāner Kathā. Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha. Paper of Gauḍīya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gauḍīya , it was published continuously. Jayapatākā: What years we should look? More or less. Prabhupāda: 1950 or little before that. They have got their old Gauḍīyas . Jayapatākā: They must have. Prabhupāda: They were so popular, the report was that the readers of Gauḍīya were only hankering after that Bhagavāner Kathā, and after reading that they will throw away. Other articles, they were not interested. Jayapatākā: So always your writing, people were attracted by. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. Even my teachers were attracted in school days. Jayapatākā: Recently that . . . some professor said that you are the veritable incarnation of Vyāsadeva for Lord Caitanya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Some have said like that. In my matriculation class I wrote some essay, and I got out of 100, 85 marks. But the teacher came to the class, "Who has written this?" So I stood up, and he thanked me, "Yes, it is very nice." He especially came to thank me for that essay. Gargamuni: At least from the human standpoint, it is not humanly possible to have so many books in such a short time. There is no other author, at least that we know. Jayapatākā: I showed your "As Brilliant as the Sun" to Tarun Kanti Gosh and one other minister, and when they saw that, then after, for ten minutes, all they could say was how Prabhupāda, how he is empowered by Lord Gaurāṅga. Prabhupāda: They said like that. Jayapatākā: Yes. That's a good movie, because it simply shows how you are doing so many books. Gargamuni: We also showed that to that Atul Krishna Goswami. He came to Māyāpur. When he saw that, he was so . . . that movie, they had never seen such a thing, the process of printing the books. Prabhupāda: He has good idea about . . . Gargamuni: Oh, yes. *Jayapatākā: He has translated Caitanya*-caritāmṛta in Hindi, they say. Prabhupāda: He presented me one. Jayapatākā: Many people ask that if that Gītār Gān could be put in Hindi. Gargamuni: See, this Gita Press, they have these little books selling for one rupee, and they've sold lakhs . If we can put Gītār Gān into many languages, it will be bigger than this Gita Press. Prabhupāda: So you can . . . it is poetry. Jayapatākā: That's the difference, that Prabhupāda put it in poetry. Who has got that inspiration? Prabhupāda: It is gān, gītā , song. One can chant it singing. Jayapatākā: Some people say: "We want the *Gītā* . This is only gān ." But then we have to say: "No, this has got the full *Gītā* . Everything is there. Every śloka is in here. Only put in gān form. But it is actual *Gītā* ." Other people, they say, "I have so many Gītās ." We say: "No, no, you can chant this with your harmonium, or by khol and karatāla you can sing." So many ways the people are taking it. Prabhupāda: Yes, they can sing very nicely. Jayapatākā: When we can hear over the loudspeakers Gītār Gān being sung, then we will feel very happy. When the public will start singing publicly Gītār Gān . . . Prabhupāda: Public singing? Jayapatākā: When the public begin to recite Gītār Gān at their functions, like they're doing this Tulasīdāsa *Rāmāyaṇa* , if they start that in Bengal, Gītār Gān , then it will be a big success. Prabhupāda: Tulasīdāsa. Tulasīdāsa *Rāmāyaṇa* is very popular. Because the Hindis, they have no literature. There is no literature. Jayapatākā: If some Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava could rewrite that according to siddhānta , then it would be very good. Prabhupāda: Which one? Jayapatākā: His *Rāmāyaṇa* has got many philosophical errors in it. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jayapatākā: If a Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava could write that properly . . . *Prabhupāda: Why? Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava has immense literature. Why they should bother with Tulasīdāsa? By reading Tulasīdāsa's Rāma*-carita-mānasa, in my experience I've not seen a single man has come to the spiritual platform. I have not seen a single man. Gargamuni: Yes. That is not transcendental literature. Because by reading these books you come to transcendental realization. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is wanted. They want āśīrvāda . Just like so many people come, āśīrvāda . "You are a saintly person, you give me āśīrvāda so my material happiness may increase. I am not interested with the spiritual knowledge. Give me blessing so that for nothing I get . . . upgrade my material opulence." This is their . . . so those Tulasīdāsa readers, they are like that. They want material opulence. Ārto*-arthārthī. Arthārthī , want some material benefit. They chant Tulasīdāsa's Rāma-carita-mānasa for some material benefit. They're not interested in the spiritual advancement. Nobody. That . . . in Delhi temple where they have paṇḍita ? I'm forgetting his name. Jayapatākā: One paṇḍita in Delhi? That one āśrama is there. The one whom you stayed with that time? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇadāsa? Jayapatākā: I just met him once. Tejiyas brought him. He's got some āśrama . Some Ācārya or something. Ācārya something. Prabhupāda: Oh, that Prabhākāra. Jayapatākā: Ācārya Prabhākāra? *Prabhupāda: No. Prabhākāra is different. Prabhākāra was first*-initiated. Jayapatākā: Your first disciple. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari*-nāma-mantra he was given. Gargamuni: What year was that? *Prabhupāda: Nineteen fifty*-four, I think. He did some service. In Jhansi . . . Gargamuni: You had that League. I saw photos of that. That League of Devotees. Prabhupāda: Hmm. A very nice building. Gargamuni: Yeah. That was nice. Prabhupāda: Very nice building. Gargamuni: With front wall, and you had painted "League of Devotees." Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen. Gargamuni: I have seen the photo. Big place. Jayapatākā: That is still existing? Prabhupāda: Very big place. That you have seen this Keśavajī Gauḍīya Maṭha in Mathurā? No. There is Caitanya Mahāprabhu Deity. That Deity was there. When I closed that, I brought, that big, big sannyāsī , and delivered Them. They will show. Jayapatākā: One man cheated you there? Some land? No. Prabhupāda: The building belonged to a big zamindar . So Prabhākāra arranged. So it was to be given to me, and I wanted to start the League of Devotees from there. Gargamuni: Yes, big institution. Prabhupāda: So I spent some money, whatever money I had, and it was going on. But in the meantime, this Lilavati Munshi.. Gargamuni: Oh, that Mr. Munshi. Prabhupāda: Mrs. At that time she was wife of the governor. Her husband, K. M. Munshi. She had some organization of foreign women. So somehow or other she got imagination that, "This house is very nice." She was governor's wife. So it was not given to me rightly, but I was using. So she wanted that house. So through collector and through all government officials' pressure. She wrote me later on that, "Bhaktivedantajī, you wanted to organize, but you could not. But I have got this institution. Why not give it to me?" So, of course, there were many lawyer friends. They advised me that, "You do not give up. You should litigate." So I thought, "Who is going to litigate? Let me go to Vṛndāvana." So I left. So at Mathurā I delivered the Deity to this Keśavajī Gauḍīya Maṭha, and I made my place in Vṛndāvana. Gargamuni: You had such a hard struggle in the beginning. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: Because that place, I saw in the photo, everything was there. Nice big sign. Prabhupāda: It was a very good place. This Prabhākāra helped me. Ninety percent was . . . but if I did not leave, nobody could drive me, that was a fact. But I thought, "Who is going to . . . for litigation? She is the governor's wife, and she is pressing through collectors, through . . ." The manager who was in charge, he had some cinema house. So they had to renew the license, cinema house. And the collector pressed him that, "Unless you arrange for this house, we are not going to renew your license." So I thought, "Unnecessarily this man will be in trouble. I'll have to pay so many rupees, and she is governor's wife." And that lady came to me in Bombay several times: "You take my press. You have got so many publications." So I said: "I can take your press. I have got money. But what shall I do with it? It is letterpress. Now printing is done by offset." That press, Associated Press, it is very good press. It was . . . they got so many government contracts. The whole telephone guides were printed there. But because it is letterset press, it is costly. The government got offset press, cheaper price. So that contract was cancelled. So for her nefarious activity she is punished. Her husband died. She has no more importance, and she was one of the trustees of Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. So she was exempted. Now she's an ordinary woman. Press is not working. Gargamuni: All they have is that Bhavan's Journal . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Nobody reads that. Jayapatākā: You say she was kicked out from the trusteeship. She's not part of that any more. Prabhupāda: Yes. The other trustees said that "You are simply spending. What you are doing?" After all, when she was wife of the governor she had some prestige. Otherwise . . . she invited me in that Juhu. She has got a house in Juhu. So I told her, "Yes, I can purchase your press. Fifty lakhs is not very big amount for me, but what shall I do? We are printing offset." That is the cause . . . because nowadays printing is done by offset press, she lost all business. People got big, big contract, they got cheaper and better quality. Why they should stick to that press? And government contract was taken from them, big, huge business they lost. Tata Press, they have got offset. Government transferred there. And that was her main support. It was a nice, good press. Practically best press in Bombay, Associated Press. But because it is letter press . . . now to maintain the letter press is very costly. Jayapatākā: Yes. You have to get new type every year, and that is very costly. Prabhupāda: Nowadays there is no need of letters, I mean to say . . . Jayapatākā: Type. Prabhupāda: Type. Gargamuni: No. They have special . . . (break) . . . on all the equipment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: That is not so much for the amount of books that they have been able to produce in such a short time. Prabhupāda: We can produce one book daily, the machines are so expert. Jayapatākā: They do outside work as well? Gargamuni: What for? We have unlimited . . . Prabhupāda: Why? Botheration. You have to satisfy your customer, waste time. We keep our machine for our own work. Gargamuni: We have so many books. As soon as we print a new book, the previous book is out of print; we have to print again. Prabhupāda: The first machine introduced by you, yes. Gargamuni: Oh, the mimeograph. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Then other machines came. I did not know, but I was thinking that if some typist would hear my tapes and type, I was thinking like that. Expert typist. Formerly, it was being done like that. Hear, tape recorder. You hear something and then type. Like that. And this machine, you shall, it is, automatically, you hear and type, hear and type. Jayapatākā: This is made for that. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the advancement on that idea, Dictaphone. Telephone. And the dictation of the author, he's hearing and typing. Nowadays everyone is using. The doctors even dictate prescription. The doctor, instead of sending note, he dictates for such and such patient, "He should receive this, take like that." That is recorded. Another, another, and immediately taken, and the compounder hears and . . . no writing. Jayapatākā: Actually you are dictating the prescription for the whole world. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra*-mano-'bhirāmāt ( SB 10.1.4) And prescription is so sweet it pleases the ear and the heart. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt . It is medicine for this material disease. At the same time, it is so pleasing to the ear and the heart. This is the very word. Bhavauṣadhi chrotra . Śrotra means aural. Śrotra-manaḥ , and mind. Mano 'bhirāmāt. Abhirāma , pleasing. Jayapatākā: After rainy season you'll be coming to Māyāpur, then? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: We'll write when the weather improves. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jayapatākā: We'll write when the rains cease. (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad (Conversation with Endowments Commissioner of Andhra Pradesh) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . every day to get permission. Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda . *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He is coming at one o'clock, so we'll give the whole mahā*-prasāda . Prabhupāda: Aiye Aiye , but . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. So at four o'clock you are coming there? No. At Mr. Raja's house? Commissioner: Endowments Minister. Prabhupāda: They are holding some meeting? Today we have got very good article in the Sunday Chronicle . Devotee: Have you read this? Commissioner: I have a copy. Prabhupāda: Everyone is reporting about us very nice, and still there are some envious persons, they are creating doubts about us. Commissioner: They cannot create any doubts, Swāmījī, as long as you are establishing the equality of man in the eyes of God, only one God. That is being done, I think, in midst of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, we have no discrimination. Commissioner: Ācchā . No discrimination. And that is the . . . I don't think anybody called . . . Prabhupāda: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Unless one is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , he cannot reach the platform of devotional . . . Commissioner: And how can there be anything greater service to humanity than . . . *Prabhupāda: Here is the first thing, that brahma*-bhūtaḥ , Brahman realization. Then prasannātmā : he is no more under the material tribulation or anxiety. We are in anxiety on account of our material conception of life. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because we have accepted this asat body, material body, which will not exist, and we are concentrating our attention only on this body, therefore we are always anxious. Asad-grahāt. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt . On account of asat . So this is going on all over the world. Simply anxiety. They have created United Nation, but where is the United Nation? The people go there with anxiety, that's all, and come back again with anxiety, because their asad-grahāt remains. The Indian is thinking, "I am Indian, this body," and the American is thinking, "I am American," and the Pakistani is thinking, "I am Pakistani." So asad-graha is there. So how the anxiety will go away? But they do not know this. There is no education. They want to keep him . . . "Feel always that you are Indian," "Feel always that you are American." "You feel always you are Hindu," "Feel always you are Muslim." Asad-graha . How there can be no anxiety? Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt . *So asato mā sad gamaya. This is Vedic injunction. Don't remain on the asat platform. Come to the sat platform. Asato mā sad gamaya. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya . Don't remain ignorant. But unfortunately, people are so absorbed in asat things they do not know what is sat . They cannot go to the sat platform. They cannot go to the light platform. And they are struggling like that. No solution. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). The government may change, but the men are the same—in darkness. What improvement will there be simply by changing government? The persons who are governing, they are in the darkness. So how, by change of government, there will be change of situation? I said in . . . where? That the United Nation is an assembly of dogs barking. Devotee: You've said this . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Where did I say it? It was published in the paper. I said that if you keep them as dogs, and if you ask some dogs, "My dear dogs, please do not bark. Live peacefully," is it possible? The dog will bark. That is their business. So we are not enlightening them what is actually we are. We are keeping on this bodily conception. That is the dog's conception. And how there will be peace? There cannot be. Simply by agreement, by treaty, there can be any peaceful? No. Just like children. They agree, "Yes, we shall not fight." Next moment they'll fight. And again they will make agreement. This is going on. Commissioner: What could we do, the devotees down here in Andhra Pradesh state? *Prabhupāda: You become guided by Bhagavad*-gītā . Commissioner: (indistinct Hindi) . . . if you think that everything could run . . . (indistinct) . . . then ahobalam is there. Ahobalam is there. That is also . . . (indistinct) . . . here now . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you are going. Tomorrow they have to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You have counted? Not yet. Counting? No. Hari-śauri: I've got it listed. 182. 1-8-2. Prabhupāda: All their temples should be reorganized on the . . . people should come there for being educated. Temple means it is an educational center. Commissioner: Educational center. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Brāhmaṇas means they are teachers. Paṭhana*-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ . So every temple should be educational center, and the brāhmaṇas should be engaged. They should be properly educated and they should teach others also. In this way, temple means education in spiritual life. And actually spiritual life is life. This material life, the bodily conception of life, is dead life. Aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam (CC Madhya 19.75). This nice shirt you have changed because there is life. When there is no life, who is going to change dress? The body is there, but why you are not interested in changing the dress? Better interest . . . the sooner the body is thrown away or burned up, better. So similarly . . . (break) There is a proverb that a vulture goes very high, but his ambition is where is a dead body. As soon as he finds a dead body, (growling sound) immediately. And we see, "Oh, how high he has gone." So what is the going up so high if your aim is to find out a dead body? And actually, these aeronautics, they went to very high, suppose they went to moon. But after going there they find, "Where is Moscow? Where is this?" The same vulture business. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to give relief to the human society. So everyone should cooperate with this movement. Unfortunately, there are so many envious persons, they are writing against us, talking against us. They should be envious. Because they want to exploit, keeping the people in ignorance. So our preaching is very difficult task, still we're trying our best. Commissioner: That's what I find, Swāmījī. My work is also very difficult. Work is very difficult. We have about 30,000 temples in this state, properties that have temples, the . . . (indistinct) . . . of temples, interest in the temples . . . Prabhupāda: No, it can be . . . if government takes our advice, we can give them advice how to organize, how to utilize. Commissioner: Definitely. We want a scheme. Definitely. Fortunately, it is the land of this Kṛṣṇā and Godāvarī. It is a sacred land. Tuṅgabhadrā, Kṛṣṇā, Godāvarī. We are finding where everywhere there has been some kind of ups and downs. It has been studied. Prabhupāda: It is the government's duty to settle up. But they must know how to settle up. If they do not know, then they cannot do anything. Commissioner: No, we want guidance. Of course. Prabhupāda: That guidance we can give you. That guidance we can give. Because we have taken the brāhmaṇa's position. The brāhmaṇa's duty is to give guidance to the kṣatriya . Government means kṣatriya . So if the kṣatriyas take guidance from the brāhmaṇa and they try to execute, then everything will be all right. So we can give you sufficient guidance, provided you accept it. (laughter) Commissioner: The end is common. And we have found yesterday some of your śiṣyas had come. They're so happy. They said: "This is what the requirement is," and we accept him as a śiṣya . Prabhupāda: Temple means a center, educational center, education. (aside) Give them prasāda . Bring. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Commissioner: And we have centers through Tirupati. All over the country in our important centers, we have got some centers. Prabhupāda: Now the thing is that, say, for Tirupati, it has got biggest income. But I understand that this income is being engaged for industrial purpose. But that, how to utilize in industrial purpose, that you do not know. *Commissioner: But just one thing, let me explain Swāmījī. We are not directly giving to industry. What we are doing is we are depositing in a fixed deposit in certain banks, getting the highest interest. That interest we are utilizing for Sanskrit studies, Vedic studies, etcetera. We are not directly giving. What we are doing is this: we invest in your bank, but bank shall invest in a productive industrial purpose. We put a condition. We are not directly putting in the industry, and that's a wrong propaganda that's being done. What we are doing is the interest that comes, the funds that are there, they are safely there in a bank. The interest that comes, we utilize only for religious purposes, like, as I said, the dharma - pracāra, veda*-pracāra , all that we are doing. *Prabhupāda: So, I have taken this veda*-pracāra. Why not come and join with us? Commissioner: Yes, definitely. *Prabhupāda: All over the world they're accepting. Now these foreigners, they're accepting. I have done it single*-handed. So if the government comes forward and join with me, we can do at least ten times work. *Commissioner: How, kindly give us, sir, if you have . . . I don't know if I'm taking your very valuable time. We are very sincere about it. We are having Himalayan opposition for some of our schemes. But when I studied yesterday—because before I came to you I thought I shouldn't just come for wasting your valuable time—therefore I have found that your aims are what we have been thinking of for the Society. The veda*-pracāra , we were thinking that we have also started on a small scale, not on your scale. And if it is that we were thinking in these terms—translation of these Vedas . . . *Prabhupāda: First of all, first of all, you must know what is Veda . Vedas , vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Vedic knowledge means to understand Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself, to understand Him. That is Bhagavad*-gītā . So if you accept the principles of Bhagavad-gītā , the whole Vedas are accepted. Because purpose of Veda is to understand Kṛṣṇa. And that Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself—"I'm like this." So where is the difficulty to understand Vedas ? *Commissioner: May I explain to you what we have, we are doing, Swāmījī? In the villages we have now taken statistics of our veda*-paṇḍitas. There are three hundred of them. Now they have said they don't want to come out of their villages. We have said wherever they are, in their own village, for one or two hours, they meet, chant the Veda in the temple or the village. Prabhupāda: They'll not do that. Commissioner: They are now willing to. Prabhupāda: There may be some percentage. If you do not accept the recognized process . . . just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was a great scholar. So He was chanting and dancing. So some of the sannyāsīs , Māyāvādī sannyāsīs in Benares . . . (to devotee) You keep it there, they will take. There was a meeting, and the question was that "You are a sannyāsī . . ." This question was put to Caitanya Mahāprabhu that, "You have taken sannyāsa , You do not read Vedānta , and You are mixing with the sentimental persons, chanting and dancing. What is this?" This was the question. So He explained that, "Yes, My Guru Mahārāja found Me a great rascal." Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). You understand Bengali? No. "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a rascal number one. Therefore he has chastised Me." What is that? Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana . "He has said that 'You are rascal, You cannot read *Vedas* and Vedānta . You are rascal. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing that." . . . (indistinct Hindi) Commissioner: Chanting, yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: So He is Kṛṣṇa Himself. He's neither rascal nor fool. But He represented the rascal and fools that who will read Vedānta . Everyone is after this Veda . No student will come to study Vedānta . That is not possible in this age. You see? Maybe somebody interested, but generally they'll not come. Even if one is born in the brāhmaṇa family, he is no more interested. *Commissioner: May I submit, Swāmījī, therefore what we did was, these three hundred people, if they chant, three hundred rupees for a dāna*-paṭha , and two hundred rupees for him and a hundred rupees a . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no, brāhmaṇa , why he will take money? Commissioner: It is . . . no, we are giving it as dakṣiṇā . Prabhupāda: No, dakṣiṇā . But they are chanting in exchange of dakṣiṇā . Because you are giving dakṣiṇā , therefore they are chanting. And you stop that dakṣiṇā , nobody will come. Commissioner: True. You are correct. (laughs) That we have told them. If they teach their own children, hundred rupees for him for teaching, forty rupees for a child who learns. Prabhupāda: That they will do, but when the hundred rupees will not be sufficient, they'll give up. Commissioner: One thing is that at least one child is learning in each and every house . . . Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that is not the process. If you want to satisfy with money, and in exchange of money he wants to chant *Vedas* , that is not . . . Commissioner: No, Swāmījī, some of them didn't care either for the money. Prabhupāda: Some of them maybe. Commissioner: And they were starving. And they were starving. Prabhupāda: But generally, generally, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's process should be taken, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu represented Himself that, "I am fool." He is not fool. He's representing the fools of this age. So if we take that process, it will be successful. It will be successful. Commissioner: That also . . . (indistinct) . . . that bhajana and every. Prabhupāda: Yes, let them come. Commissioner: That is all. Prabhupāda: Let them come in the temple, and there may be sumptuously offering of bhoga . Let them chant and take prasādam . In this chanting, illiterate, literate, rascal, fool, lower, higher, everyone can join. And give them prasādam . See the effect. *Commissioner: Yes. That is also part of the . . . that is the other part of it. We are having dhana*-prasthānam, bhajana group, hari-kathā group . . . *Prabhupāda: But kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ . The Vedas are meant for the brāhmaṇas . So there is no brāhmaṇa practically. Neither there is training of brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa means he must speak truth. Satyā śama dama titik . . . and if you ask nowadays anybody that, "You don't speak lie, you speak truth," he will laugh that, "What a rascal this is. By speaking truth one can live nowadays?" he will say. The first business is satyam . And if you ask him, "You speak truth," he will laugh. So where is brāhmaṇa ? A brāhmaṇa is so simple that if you ask him about his secrecy, he'll tell you, "Yes, this is . . ." Satyam . Just like Jābāla Upaniṣad, he was asked, he went to Gautama Muni . . . Devotee: Satyaka. Prabhupāda: Satyaka, yes, for initiation. Gautama Muni asked him, "Who is your father?" He said: "I do not know." "Go to your mother." He went to the mother. Mother said: "Oh, my dear son, I do not know." Means he was a prostitute's son. So he came to Gautama Muni and said: "Sir, my mother does not know; I do not know." So he said: "You are a brāhmaṇa ." Devotee: This is our tradition. Prabhupāda: "Because you don't keep any secrecy you are brāhmaṇa . I'll initiate." So it is not the birth, but the quality—truthful. But these qualities will come when you make him a devotee. So this process should be taken, how to make him a devotee. And the easiest process of making devotee: let them come to the temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasādam . Then gradually they will become . . . I began this movement on this. Commissioner: Very good idea. Very simple idea. Prabhupāda: Very simple. And they have come. I never asked them to study *Vedas* in the beginning. What they'll read Veda ? What do they know? But this process has become successful. So if you take this process, it will be very quickly successful. And then literature. I never gave them literature. I have got about eighty books. Not that in the beginning I asked them, "Come here and read books." No. "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam ." Now they are interested in reading books, in publishing them, in selling them and everything. They are doing everything. So if you take the authorized program it will be successful. Otherwise, it will not be successful. Commissioner: Well . . . (indistinct) . . . and how long the Swāmījī will be here? I'll take up the program. We will. As a matter of fact, somehow . . . Prabhupāda: I am always at your service. *Commissioner: Somehow, the coincides, our program, we have taken a small scale. Every temple has been asked to have this bhajana, hari*-kathā , then this pūjā . . . Prabhupāda: There must be some competent man to induce. Everything will be planned. Commissioner: Therefore our training has to be started perhaps here. Some of those people who could go. Now these are all the ideas, of course. If you could give an impetus, that's exactly what I wanted to . . . take advice from you. Now if a center is established. What we lack very badly are those people who can competently take up this work in the whole state. The temples are there, the funds are there, organization is there. Men who are, as you say, the real brāhmaṇa , who could go and preach this, we are lacking. We are lacking. And he has to be trained. And the right training you are giving. Anywhere I see your men are . . . Prabhupāda: So we can give men. Commissioner: Yes. And a training institute has to be started. Very badly we need it. My department also, having any number of people. It is suffering because we don't have the proper people with that objective to govern . . . Prabhupāda: Because the culture is lost. Culture is lost. Commissioner: Because we take the local people as trust board members. Local people. We appoint officers. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said if you keep them dogs, what is the use of United Nation? You cannot make the dogs united. That is not possible. Commissioner: Yes. Therefore recently in Tirupati we have been thinking of starting a training institute along with Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. We asked . . . Prabhupāda: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have no idea. Commissioner: They have no idea. Ramakrishna Mission we asked. Prabhupāda: They have no idea. Commissioner: They don't have people. They said: "We don't have men even for our own missions." Prabhupāda: No. How long they can go on with false pretense? And these people, they have no idea what is spiritual life. It is a profession for collecting money. So if you . . . we do not like to criticize. Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, K. Munshi, he did not believe there is life after death or he did not believe there is Kṛṣṇa, fact. This is the founder. So what is their knowledge? And Vivekananda made Nārāyaṇa daridra . So this is their manufacturing ideas. They have no sound knowledge. Vacant. They are misled themselves, and they will mislead others. This is going on. But if you say that, "You are the only man?" I can say: "Yes, I am the only man at the present moment." You believe or not believe. And why? Because I am following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. That's all. I do not touch anything. That is our process. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we say, that's all. Therefore there is little success. I don't manufacture. I have no extraordinary power or I cannot show magic or jugglery of words. But I do sincerely to present what Kṛṣṇa has said. So if you do that, you'll be successful. If you do not do that, you'll never be successful. If you manufacture idea, you'll not . . . we must know that we are defective. Our manufacturing of idea all defective. We must take standard instructions from Kṛṣṇa. Then everything . . . so if you stick to this point, then we can guide you. And you'll be successful. Guidance is Kṛṣṇa. Our duty is to present Kṛṣṇa. Just like somebody has sent you money order, 1,000 rupees. I am a peon; I am not giving you the money. The money is sent by somebody. But I do not open it, adulterate it—that is my honesty. That is my honesty. So the instruction is Kṛṣṇa's. If I honestly deliver the same message to you, then you are benefited, I am benefited. And as soon as I pilfer it, then it is useless, I am useless, and you don't get profits, success. So if you decide to take Kṛṣṇa's instruction rightly, then we can give you very good guidance. Everywhere you'll be successful. Everything is there. Commissioner: Any plans to have training and . . . *Prabhupāda: Anything. It must be sanctioned by the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Then it will be successful. Commissioner: For success the people, the local language, so that they may be . . . Prabhupāda: Language difficulty is there. That we have to solve. Commissioner: Therefore training has to be done here and in other places, anyway, and a center has to be there. You could plan one of those with also . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, plan is there. Just like we are doing. And we can give you in detail. Provided you accept this principle that we shall abide by the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā . Commissioner: Who questions the *Gītā* and the *Upaniṣads* ? *Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. It is very difficult. You see. Big, big scholars, big, big politicians, they are supposed to be preaching Bhagavad*-gītā . They take their photograph in front of Bhagavad-gītā —but without Kṛṣṇa. They'll never talk of Kṛṣṇa any time. Banish Kṛṣṇa. Even Gandhi has said: "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different." Perhaps you have read in his Gita Press edition. Kṛṣṇa is speaking . . . Radhakrishnan said when Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, he says: "It is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad bhaktaḥ, and he says it is not to the Kṛṣṇa person. Just see how misleading it is. And if a person like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi, misleads, then who will hear me? What I am? There is one big person in Bombay, he said that he has set aside ten lakhs of rupees for Gītā-pracāra . But when I proposed Gītā-pracāra means kṛṣṇa-pracāra , so he said: "No, I want Gītā without Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) Everyone . . . *Commissioner: Then who is the Gītā*-pracāra? Gītā-pracāra. Prabhupāda: They are doing that. You can see from this big, big person. Gandhi used to say that he believes in *Gītā* and *Gītā* gives him solace in difficult times and so on, so on. But has he ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Tilok has ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Radhakrishnan has ever preached Kṛṣṇa? Nobody. Their policy is take Sītā and kill Rāma. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā. Take away *Gītā* and kill Kṛṣṇa. So Rāvaṇa's policy will never be successful. Rāvaṇa's policy means he will be destroyed. You cannot do any harm to Rāma, but he will be destroyed. This policy, that take Sītā and kill Rāma, means he will destroy himself. So this is going on. Take *Gītā* and kill Kṛṣṇa. This will destroy the whole thing, this Rāvaṇa's policy. And Hanumān's policy, somehow or other rescue Sītā and get her seated by the side of Rāma. Therefore he's worshiped, Vajrāṅgajī. That is the difference between Rāvaṇa's policy. Sītā is the via media. But one is trying to bring back Sītā and seat her by the side of Rāma, and another is trying to take away Sītā and kill Rāma. This wrong policy will not save us. We have to accept the instruction of *Gītā* and accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord. Then everything will be all right. (aside) Prasādam ? So thank you very much for your coming. Commissioner: Thank you. And to you, Swāmī. Prabhupāda: So, kindly if you will agree to take the instruction of *Gītā* , I am always at your service. I'll give you such guidance—our men, our everything. But you have to decide this. You cannot take up this policy, take *Gītā* and banish Kṛṣṇa. Commissioner: (laughter) Prabhupāda: That is not wanted. (end) Conversation A -- August 24, 1976, Hyderabad (Meeting with Endowments Commissioner) Prabhupāda: But we are so . . . (aside) You can keep it there now. Keep. So we do not believe in these things, that there is Bhagavān, and Bhagavān comes, He has got a mission. Do you believe in these things? Frankly speaking, do you believe in these things? Mr. Raju: We do. We do believe. We feel it also in our body. Prabhupāda: Then you must act according to His mission. According to His mission. The mission is, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata ( BG 4.7). When we are engaged in glānir dharma , which is not dharma —cheating. Glānir , glānir . What is the glānir ? Mr. Raju: Hatred. Hatred. Prabhupāda: No. Glānir means which is abominable. Mr. Raju: Abominable. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). So what is that glānir ? Glānir means . . . dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , there is . . . Yamarāja said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam . Dharma cannot be manufactured by any man. (aside) You have got Sixth Canto? Harikeśa: Sixth Canto, Third Chapter, nineteenth verse. *Prabhupāda: Yes, find this verse. Yamarāja said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam . Even the demigods, they cannot manufacture dharma . Harikeśa: "Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great ṛṣis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras , ordinary human beings, Vidyādharas and Cāraṇas." *Prabhupāda: Nobody can. This is the principle. So when so many rascal dharma is introduced, that is dharmasya glāniḥ. So we must know this. Then we can understand what is the mission of Bhagavān. When rascals are introducing so*-called so many dharmas , that is dharmasya glāniḥ . Do you accept or not? Mr. Raju: Yes, we accept. *Prabhupāda: Therefore, Bhagavān concludes at the end, "You rascal, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66)." This is dharma . To surrender to the Lord, that is dharma . And in another place, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Without this, all cheating. If there is no bhakti , surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all these kind of dharmas , they're all cheating. Therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). On this, Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented, atra mokṣa vañca api nirastam . Dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41,CC Ādi 1.90). So according to this principle, they're all cheating. So-called religious system, artha , economic development, sense gratification. Just like that we have created so many social dharma : saṁsāra-dharma , gṛhastha-dharma , this dharma , that dharma . So in that way, they're all cheating. Therefore, our request is that yajñārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). In the Bālajī's temple, mostly poor cultivators, I have seen, they go. And they want to give something to the Lord. Yajñārthe . So the karmīs , they're advised, yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad arpaṇam , "Give Me." So these karmīs , somehow or other, by their great fortune they're giving something to the Lord. Yajñārthe . (someone enters) Aiye . That money should not be utilized for any other purpose. That is our mission. It must be utilized for the purpose to fulfill the mission of the Lord. Mission of the Lord is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66): how people can be trained up to give up all these nonsensical type of dharma, and how to become a devotee of Lord. For this purpose this money should be spent. Then it will be all right. Mr. Raju: Mostly it is utilized for that. Almost completely. Only one or two is mere, what is called, charity. The industry . . . there's been a wrong impression that we are working directly with industry. *Prabhupāda: No, no. That is . . . it should be utilized simply for the purpose of awakening the devotional, what is called, inspiration. For no other purpose. Just like in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said, nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Kṛṣṇa-bhakti , nitya-siddha . This is our natural. Just like these Europeans and Americans, they have become kṛṣṇa-bhaktas . So what business they had to do with Kṛṣṇa? They're coming from Christian family, Jewish families, or some of them Muhammadan family. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṇa? They haven't got to do anything with Kṛṣṇa. So how they have become a kṛṣṇa-bhakta ? Even the . . . just like he is coming from Parsi family, he is coming from Jewish family, he is coming from Christian family, he is coming from Europe, he is coming from America. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṇa? We Indians, or Hindus, we may have some concern with Kṛṣṇa, but what they have got? They haven't got anything to do with Kṛṣṇa. Now you pay them one lakh of rupees and ask them, "You become again Christian. You become again Parsi." Just see. Make them again Christian. Practical. These are young boys. You ask them that, "I'll give you good girl, I'll give you good money. You give up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, come here." Ask them. Make a test. They'll refuse, they'll kick out. How they have become? Therefore it is a fact, as it is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta , kṛṣṇa-bhakti nitya-siddha . Everyone has got kṛṣṇa-bhakti eternally. It is not artificial. They have not become kṛṣṇa-bhakta artificially. It is the eternal link that has been awakened. Mr. Raju: There's no doubt of that, Swāmījī. Let us say there are hundred leprosy patients. There are one thousand orphans. We put them there, give them food, and make them pray to Kṛṣṇa . . . *Prabhupāda: Well, you are . . . they are mistaken. But if you have to awaken kṛṣṇa*-bhakti , why you go to the lepers? Mr. Raju: No, they have come here. They are all there in the temple. They are not allowing others to pray properly. They are all, one thousand . . . in the past . . . *Prabhupāda: We have no objection, that . . . because our principle is kṛṣṇa*-bhakti nitya-siddha . So kṛṣṇa-bhakti is there in everyone. So leper or non-leper. Just like our Vivekananda, he took up daridra-nārāyaṇa . This is an absurd proposition. Nārāyaṇa is never daridra . But if you put this argument, that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, so if Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, why you take up only daridra-nārāyaṇa ? Why not dhanī-nārāyaṇa also? If you have got so broad vision that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, therefore we see everyone, so why you particularly take the daridra-nārāyaṇa ? Similarly, kṛṣṇa-bhakti is everywhere. It is in the leper or non-leper. So why should we take particularly the leper? So that is outwardly a social service, that they are taking care of the leper. So if that vision, it will not be right. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti even requires . . . even a karmī like big, big owner of factories, he's more diseased than the leper, because he has no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . So we have to take care of the leper and the richest man also if he has no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Mr. Raju: That also. That also. Prabhupāda: No, therefore we should not make any distinction that only the lepers will be taken care of. Mr. Raju: Again, let's say a rich man or somebody comes, prays . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone is more than leper. Mr. Raju: He takes prasāda in the temple, he goes. But this man is not allowed. He can't come. Therefore God goes to him. *Prabhupāda: We have to take . . . you cannot manufacture where God goes. You should have to take lesson from God. That is one thing. If we manufacture ideas, that will never be successful. That will never be successful. Don't manufacture ideas. If you want to be servant of God, you must take instruction from God. That is wanted. You cannot manufacture idea, that "God wants this." So first of all try to understand what is God's mission. God's mission is, it is clearly said, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). So, more or less, everyone is entangled with this glānir dharma . They have manufactured. Just like the demigod worship. This is a glānir dharma . Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). And Kṛṣṇa clearly says, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). *So if you want to utilize, people are giving in good faith, Bālajī, Kṛṣṇa, their hard*-earned money, whatever we are giving something. Yajña , that is wanted. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). That money should not be utilized for any other purpose except yajña . First of all, you have to decide like that. Then we can give you direction. First of all, you have to decide that this money, not a single farthing should be spent for any other purpose than performing yajña . Then we can give you right direction. And if you have plan to utilize this money for any other purpose, that is not Kṛṣṇa's mission; *that is your mission. So first of all you have to decide whether you are going to execute Kṛṣṇa's mission or your mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission is very clearly defined. It is there. Everything is declared there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . We can do it very nicely. But if you want to do any other mission, then you can do. You are government, you are in power, you can do that. But that will not be pleasing to Kṛṣṇa. He has got a mission. That is stated: dharmasya glānir bhavati . So any dharma , so-called dharma , which does not awaken their Kṛṣṇa consciousness is glāniḥ . Kṛṣṇa does not want that. If you're against the will of Kṛṣṇa, against the mission of Kṛṣṇa, if you want to do something, you can do it. People are doing so many things. That is also mentioned by Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: Iti te jñānam . . . (BG 18.63). Prabhupāda: No. That one verse is that one does not . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is that, "Surrender unto Me." Now, who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa? That is stated by Kṛṣṇa: *Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he must be grouped either duṣkṛtina , mūḍha , narādhama , māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna , āsuraṁ bhāvam . We do that. Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he must be grouped among them. And for them, what is their . . . tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram . (aside) Find out this verse, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān . . . if anyone is envious of Kṛṣṇa, then what is his punishment? Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is their punishment. Harikeśa: "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence into various demoniac species of life." Prabhupāda: And next verse? Harikeśa: "Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence." Prabhupāda: So this is my request, that our money . . . there is nothing "Our money", everything Kṛṣṇa's. But we are thinking, because we are asuric. So asuras think like that. Just like Kaṁsa, Hiraṇyakaśipu: "Hah!" Rāvaṇa: "Hah! What is Rāma?" That is asura's. They think like that, and that is asuric. But otherwise, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore yajña is advised. The sooner you hand over Kṛṣṇa's property to Kṛṣṇa, it is good for you. *Mr. Raju: Swāmījī, we are karma*-yogīs . We start the day with surrendering to God and asking Him to show us the way. Beyond that, I don't know what our duty . . . *Prabhupāda: But a karma*-yogī , why you should take Kṛṣṇa's money for karma? Mr. Raju: For what? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . that is for . . . Prabhupāda: That is the . . . Mr. Raju: It is not used. As you have correctly said, that way only it is used. There may be different . . . *Prabhupāda: No, the first thing is that if you decide that Kṛṣṇa's money should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's mission, so Kṛṣṇa's mission is this, that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). You have to bring them to the sense of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And there is a process. You cannot manufacture that process. You have to take the process from Kṛṣṇa. That Kṛṣṇa says: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. You have to teach people how he can think of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā . Then the mission is there. That is Kṛṣṇa also. Kṛṣṇa says: *You have to teach them like that. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām , as we are doing. We're always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But if you manufacture in your own way, that you can do. Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ na sa siddhim avāpnoti (BG 16.23). That will never be successful. If you have to execute the mission of Kṛṣṇa, you have to take instruction of Kṛṣṇa and do it rigidly. Then you'll be successful. Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is that one must know Kṛṣṇa and surrender to Him. This is mission. Kṛṣṇa does not say that by karma-yoga one can understand Him. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). You cannot say, "We are karma-yogīs ." Karma-yogī means the third class. He's karmī , and little mixed up with bhakti . Adulterated. Jñāna-yogī , he's not a bhakta . He's jñānī , but just to bring him gradually, a little bhakti . You see? And real bhakti is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). When it will be tintless of any karma and jñāna , then it is pure bhakti . That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Not mixed up with jñāna , karma , yoga . Otherwise, how Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti ? He could have said, "Any way," as these rascals say, "Any way go, you will get Kṛṣṇa." That Kṛṣṇa does not say. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ (BG 7.3). Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). So that tattva , bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). So we have to take this. You manufacture in your own way, and still you carry out the mission of Kṛṣṇa—that is contradiction. You have to take the lesson from Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be successful. Karma-yoga is for the third class. They are addicted to karma , a little bhakti , that's all. That is not pure. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). When there is not a tinge of karma and jñāna , that is pure bhakti . That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. *So everything is there, direction is there. We can guide you—not according to our whims, but according to śāstra . And if you agree to accept, then we can also cooperate with you. But if you manufacture your own way, then how we can possibly . . . Kṛṣṇa's mission is this: yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). Except kṛṣṇa*-bhakti , bhaktyā , everything is glāniḥ . All glāniḥ . And that can be awakened, kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Just like these boys are doing. That is enunciated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta : nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa—everyone has kṛṣṇa-bhakti . You have to awaken simply. Nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema sādhya kabhu naya (CC Madhya 22.107). It is not artificial. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya . If the hearing about Kṛṣṇa is pure . . . that is also confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : *So we have to follow this formula. This is śāstra*-viddhi : one step to another. And if you don't care for the śāstra-viddhi , we can do that, but na siddhiṁ na avāpnoti : it will never be successful. It will be a show, big show, but there will be no siddhi . (pause) *Prabhupāda: If you want to do according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, our cent percent cooperation will be there. We'll not touch a single farthing of your money, but we can give you direction, "Spend it like that." And government men, you can see that we are not touching a single farthing of your money, but it is being spent for Kṛṣṇa's mission. That you can believe. It is the duty of the government men to see that people may not misrepresent. That is the Vedic injunction. Pṛthu Mahārāja was to see that a brāhmin is doing, acting like brāhmin , kṣatriya is doing like kṣatriya . So it is government's duty to see that Bālajī's money, Kṛṣṇa's money, is to the farthing spent for His mission. That is your duty. That is government's duty, that nothing is misused, nothing is misrepresented. But we know how to execute the mission of Kṛṣṇa. Everyone can know, because direction is there. It is not a secret thing. It is open secret. But you have to act. That requires faith. And so far my experience goes, the whole world will take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unfortunately, I am struggling single*-handed. And they are criticizing me in the Parliament. You have seen the recent article Blitz against me? What is that heading? "Ungodly face." I am doing ungodly? But they are advertising like that, trying to make me unpopular. The Māyāvādīs, they say that Bhaktivedanta Swami is ruining Hinduism. They are saying like that . . . Bolta hai ki nahi? . . . mayavadi saying like this? (Saying like this or not? . . . mayavadi is saying like this?) So I am being criticized in Parliament, I am criticized by the so-called jagad-gurus who have never seen what is jagat . And so on, so on. Mr. Raju: No, for a country suffering from multiplicity of gods, Hinduism, you are doing a very great service, asking them to concentrate on Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is . . . only God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Mr. Raju: How you are enlightening them, it is a very great service. No doubt about that actually. They don't know. And you are making the man, the human being, a servant of that God . . . (indistinct) . . . divinity. Prabhupāda: This is not my manufacture. Śāstra says, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . Mr. Raju: They have said so many things in the name of śāstra . They have said so many things in the name of śāstra . That you are making it one is very good. *Prabhupāda: No, those who are approved śāstra is accepted by the ācāryas . Śāstra , which is accepted by the ācārya , that is śāstra . You cannot make. As you cannot manufacture religion, you cannot manufacture śāstras . Approved by the ācāryas . Ācāryopāsanam . Therefore Kṛṣṇa says also that you should know from the ācārya . Everyone, they are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā with the purpose of killing Kṛṣṇa. Everyone. The politicians, the scholars, the rascals and everyone. The main purpose is how to kill Kṛṣṇa. In Bombay I have got a very big friend, you know him. I do not wish to disclose his name. He has set aside ten lakhs of rupees from preaching Gītā . But he wants Gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Rāma without Sītā. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā; Rāma will remain alone. So take away Gītā and cut Kṛṣṇa. But I cannot make any compromise. I shall . . . my life is ended; *now I'm eighty*-one. I do not know . . . but so long I shall live, I shall make no compromise, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svaya m (SB 1.3.28). Dṛḍha-vrata . And that is a fact. Why shall I mislead people? They are searching after God, what is God. Here is God. Why don't you take it? See His activities. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47). Tally with the formula of God, you see Kṛṣṇa is there. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . So whatever teeny effort I have got, I shall try to establish temples of Kṛṣṇa all over the world with my teeny income. I have got book sales. Kṛṣṇa has given me very good chance. It is beyond any dream. We are selling books sixty thousand dollars daily. Indian man (1): Six lakhs about. Mahāṁsa: Thirty thousand dollars. Indian man (1): Sixty thousand dollars. Mahāṁsa: Yes, daily. Prabhupāda: And we are known the topmost publisher of religious and philosophical books in the world. And we are approved . . . our books are approved by the greatest learned scholars of all universities. Because they are seeing a new light. No hodgepodge philosophy. India also, wherever we are going. Now he has come . . . within how many days? Within a month. Prabhaviṣṇu: Yes, one month, in Uttar Pradesh . . . Prabhupāda: He has got seventy standing orders. Our books are, say, eighty. So eighty books, say, average five dollars. So eighty books, five dollars means . . . Prabhaviṣṇu: Four hundred dollars. Prabhupāda: Four hundred dollars. Such seventy orders. Mr. Raju: Four hundred by seventy. Prabhupāda: He has secured order in one month, seventy orders. In one place. Standing orders. "Whatever is published, give us, and then others, when they will be published, send also." They have not seen even the books. Tirupati Balajī Temple manager: This is practical pracāra , giving of books. Prabhupāda: No librarian, no university, no scholar, no professor is refusing. As soon as we go, "Oh, yes, bring. We shall take." So I am bringing money from the foreign countries by my selling books, and they are criticizing me that I am CIA. (laughter) Just see the fun. And there is nobody to give me protection. Tirupati Balajī Temple manager: Not Lord giving protection? (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, Lord giving, giving. That I am confident. Because they are envious, "How Bhaktivedanta Swami is getting so much money? He's paying crores and crores. There must be some political . . ." As they are getting from Russia. But actually, I am selling. I am working night, writing these books, and these boys are helping me to sell it. I am getting enough money to spend it. What is my fault? For Kṛṣṇa's sake we have sacrificed everything, our life and everything, and Kṛṣṇa is giving us money and we are spending it, and they are criticizing in the Parliament. This is my misfortune. I don't take it as misfortune. Because asuras are always there. Even Kṛṣṇa's time. Mr. Raju: They are criticizing, but not . . . Prabhupāda: Because we are getting so much money. For this temple we have to spend . . . ten lakhs ? Mahāṁsa: Twelve lakhs . Prabhupāda: Twelve lakhs . So by selling my books. And I have sent him more than four lakhs , five lakhs from foreign countries. This is my fault. Similarly, in Bombay we are spending every month seven lakhs regularly. That is coming from foreign countries. And they are thinking that I'm taking bribe and acting as CIA. Just see. And CIA have become Vaiṣṇavas with long śikhā and giving up all facilities of life, and they are dancing with the CIA. People have no common sense that CIA agent could stay in a nice hotel and enjoy life. Why so much vairāgya ? Even my Godbrothers said that American government has given me two crores of rupees. Now we are planning to have a temple in Māyāpur where . . . what is, what is the economic estimates, where we shall spend how much money monthly? Harikeśa: Two hundred thousand dollars monthly. Prabhupāda: Two hundred thousand dollars monthly. Mr. Raju: Navadwip, mayapur me. (In Navadwip, Māyāpur.) Prabhupāda: Two hundred thousand. (break) Nobody will be able to check it. He'll go on. That is Kṛṣṇa. Here is Dictaphone. I work at night. I get up at half past twelve, one, and I write books. And daytime I'm engaged. And daily either ten page, twenty page written, that is sent to Los Angeles. You have seen our Press? And they take care. How our books printed, have you got that film? Mahāṁsa: I have it in 16mm. Yes. Prabhupāda: Why don't you show? Mahāṁsa: Just now? Prabhupāda: Yes. It will take little . . . Hari-śauri: (indistinct background conversation about projectors) Mahāṁsa: I don't have a Fairchild. I have it in 16mm film. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But the Press . . . Mahāṁsa: Yes, the Press film. Prabhupāda: You can show, they'll be . . . (background talk about projectors) How in the American industrial process we are printing our books. I made the Book Trust, sixty thousand dollars they are selling. So as author, I could have derived from them at least six thousand, ten percent minimum. Six thousand dollars per day. Six thousand dollars means sixty thousand rupees. That could have been my daily income. But I take little khicuṛi from them, that's all. (Harikeśa laughing) Indian man: Two crores per year, it comes to . . . Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . he was last month at Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: Our farming projects, very successful. Now here, Badrukajī is also giving us some land. Aiye . . . bathiye. (Come . . . sit.) (someone arrives) (background conversation) Hari-śauri: Vāsughoṣa. Prabhupāda: So we have got big program. Any amount of money you bring to us, we shall spend it immediately. (background conversation) (pause) (loud kīrtana in background) (break) *Prabhupāda: There is a logic, andha*-paṅgu-nyāya . One man is blind, another man is lame. Both are useless. But when they combined together the lame man was taken by the blind man. So the lame man has got eyes, he was giving direction: "Go this way." So both their work was done. So I say that India is lame and America is blind. Let us combine together. Then we can give a great culture for the benefit of the whole human society. India has no money—lame. And they have got money, but they have no knowledge. So let us combine together. This is logic. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya . *So by this cooperation they have . . . when I was in India I published three parts of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam with great difficulty. And now, since I have gone there, I am publishing every month a book. So on account of their cooperation we are able to publish so many books and organize the sale all over the world. But it is true that this culture is very much welcome all over the world. That is happening. That is real execution of the mission of Kṛṣṇa. Not to keep Kṛṣṇa within the boundaries of certain areas. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā . Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya (BG 14.4). He's the father of all living entities. They should know it. *We have got many other films also—how we are giving protection to the cows in different farms, how we are getting sumptuous milk. Two years ago there was an article in the Navabharat Times in Delhi, big article, one full page, first page. And the heading was that New Vṛndāvana Mein "aadyatmikta ki jamuna, aur doodh*-dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai."("In the Yamuna of spirituality, and a river of milk curd is flowing.") They gave this heading. And they gave all details how the use of the land. New Vrindavan in Virginia, we have got one thousand acre of land, and we are utilizing it. How they are living peacefully. So we want to make an example here with this six hundred acres of land, if it is given to us. Kṛṣṇa's formula is there: annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Produce sufficient quantity of anna . Everyone will be satisfied. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Kṛṣṇa never says by factory bhavanti bhūtāni . (laughter) *Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). This formula should be . . . that is Kṛṣṇa's mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission . . . what to speak of Kṛṣṇa's mission, Kṛṣṇa (loud kirtan). Krishna se hi juda hua hai. Bās. (It is connected to Kṛṣṇa.) Kṛṣṇa, to carry personally, bol rahe hain, (He is saying,) aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ye log kaha rahe hain Krishna Nirakara hai. (These people, they say Kṛṣṇa is formless.) Kṛṣṇa nirākāra . He's personally speaking. And Vyāsadeva writes, bhagavān uvāca . Propaganda phail raha hai Bhagvan kuch hai hi nahi. (Propaganda is spreading that there is no God.)) Tirupati Balajī Temple manager: (indistinct) Om purusham . . . mera dhayn karo, mera kaun hai mante hi nahi. ( Om purusham . . . meditate on Me—who is "Me"? They do not accept.) (break) (loud kirtan ) Prabhupāda: Idaṁ jñānam ākhyātam ? Harikeśa: Iti te jñānam ākhyātam . Prabhupāda: Iti te jñānam ākhyātam . . . Harikeśa: Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā . I'll get it. "Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully and then do what you wish to do." Prabhupāda: Just see. Kṛṣṇa has explained everything, all confidential. Now consider about it, think about it, and do whatever you like. Yathecchasi tathā. The liberty is there. Whatever you like, you can do. Kṛṣṇa will not force. He can force, but He does not interfere with little liberty. Then he becomes stone. Living entity has got little liberty because he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. When Arjuna was decided, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā , Kṛṣṇa gave him liberty, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). But he voluntarily accepted, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava . Find out. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is real religion. Harikeśa: "Arjuna said: My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions." Prabhupāda: That's it. Yes, that is real . . . (indistinct) . . . that is translated in Bengali, *"Now I am prepared, naṣṭo mohaḥ, now my illusion is over." . . . (indistinct) . . . that is perfection. Kṛṣṇa gives you liberty, whatever you like you do. But when you come to the conclusion, "No, I shall do what you say," that is perfection. I can do whatever I like. That liberty is there. But if I accept Kṛṣṇa's instruction, that is bhakti . Find out that verse, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). Harikeśa: "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion." Prabhupāda: This is religion. They are mahātmās . Previous verse? Harikeśa: "O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible." Prabhupāda: That is mahātmā . This is mahātmā . Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha (BG 9.13). Find out this . . . *Harikeśa: Daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya*-manaso jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam . Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ . Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Harikeśa: "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare. (indistinct background conversation) Vāsughoṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This gentleman is the head of the Marwari community, Mr. Dinami. They only speak Hindi. They would like to speak to you, but they don't understand English. Prabhupāda: No, I can . . . main Hindi mein bol sakta hai. (I can speak in Hindi.) (loud kirtana ) (break) Indian man: Hindi mein bol sakta hai maharaj? (Can Mahārāja speak in Hindi?) Indian man: Maharaj ji Hindi mein bolenge. (Mahārāja will speak in Hindi.) Prabhupāda: Unless one is enthused, he cannot preach. It is not possible. I went there when I was about seventy years old. I was sitting in Vṛndāvana. So I thought that "My Guru Mahārāja wanted me; *Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted me. So in this old age, let me try." . . . (indistinct) . . . but by Kṛṣṇa's grace it became successful. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam , dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam (BG 10.10). So there is good field for propagating this cult. See our young men, they are . . . Udhar sab young men sab sharab chhod raha hai . . . aur idhar sharab pine ko ghum raha hai. Udhar maans chhod raha hai aur idhar maans khane ko dhoond raha hai. Juhu me ek bada sa beef shop aur Hindu log beef khana suru kar diye hain. Ab kya raha gaya hai. (There, all young men are giving up alcohol . . . and here they are roaming to drink alcohol. There they are giving up eating meat and here they are searching to eat meat. In Juhu there is a big beef shop and even the Hindus have started to eat beef.) And I inquired some of the Hindu boys that, "Do you eat beef?" So, they began to smile, then they accepted. Jab maans khata hai to wo beef hua ye hua sab ek hai. (When they eat meat then whether it is beef or some meat, how does it matter.) (break) Indian man: . . . Mahatma Gandhi ne kaha tha ki . . . band karwa denge. (Mahatma Gandhi had said . . . will be closed.) Prabhupāda: Keh dene se kya. (Just by saying what will happen.) The platform is finished. Khali bolne se kya hoga? Bangladesh me bolta hai (Prabhupada says Bengali saying) . . . baans hota hai na ek green rahta usko aap bend kar sakte hai aur wo jab yellow ho jata hai . . . . tuchchch . . . toh toot jata hai. Pahle to kuch sikhaya nahi jata hai ab jab yellow ho gaya to usko kya sikhaye. Toot gaya. (Just by saying what will happen? In Bangladesh there is a saying (Bengali saying) bamboo is there when it is green it can be bent but when it becomes yellow then . . . tuchchch . . . then it breaks on bending. Initially nothing is taught, now when these people have become yellow like dry bamboo then what to teach. They break.) Now, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Yathecchasi , yathā icchasi tathā kuru . Mr. Raju: No, we are ready for that. There is actually no difference at all than what you are saying. As a matter of fact, government is . . . that's what I said, they have started their own society, the society of Kṛṣṇa bhaktas . . . (indistinct) . . . this country, other countries . . . this country itself, it is such a great service. Prabhupāda: Whole world will accept. Mr. Raju: This country itself is such a great service. It will require miracle. Prabhupāda: Iske liye . . . (For this . . .) We can cooperate. *Mr. Raju: Unless you are so single*-minded it can't be. Therefore you say there is no compromise. Otherwise, if there are compromises, there will be adjustments, it will lead to dilution. We understand. *Prabhupāda: Compromise has to do. These boys, when they come for initiation, no compromise: "You have to do this. No illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, even up to smoking cigarettes or drinking tea, no gambling. If you accept, then you become my disciple." They accept. No compromise. Mr. Raju: (indistinct) . . . great coordination, because you are establishing a center here. That will be very good. Prabhupāda: We are meant for this purpose, coordination, but if you take our . . . (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have taken prasādam? Mr. Raju: Yes, we did. (minister and temple manager leave) (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . and he is such a big man that he goes above the ācāryas . Ati*-buddhi . Ati-buddhi galaya dekhe . "If one is overintelligent, hang him." That is a Bengali saying. Ati-buddhi galaya dekhe . If one is unnecessarily over intelligent, just hang him with a rope in the neck. So he is ati-buddhi . Anyway, he was intelligent to purchase. Devotee: (aside) He thought that it would explain . . . (indistinct) . . . (background conversation) Prabhupāda: You have to read the subject matter. Even if he thinks that it is written by Bopadeva, such a great knowledge, one has to read. Such great knowledge is not possible by Bopadeva and unless he is incarnation of God, Vyāsadeva. It is said . . . (indistinct) . . . not this . . . (indistinct) Mahāṁsa: Which volume do you want, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Second volume. Varīyān eṣa . . . Harikeśa: Second Canto, Part One, verse one. Prabhupāda: Find out this. Varīyān eṣa . . . Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Find out that verse when he says: "I have heard it from my father." Pariniṣṭhito 'pi nairguṇya . The verse begins pariniṣṭhito 'pi nairguṇya . Harikeśa: Idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma ? Idaṁ bhāgavatam . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, before that. Pariniṣṭhito 'pi . The word begins with pariniṣṭhito . Idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma . No? Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. *Harikeśa: "At the end of the Dvāpara*-yuga, I studied this great supplement of Vedic literature of the name Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which is equal to all the Vedas , from my father, Śrīla Dvaipāyana Vyāsadeva." Prabhupāda: Just see. And these rascals say Bopadeva. The speaker of *Bhāgavatam* , he says that, "I learned it from my father." His father is Vyāsadeva. And these rascals say Bopadeva. Just see. And they are posted in big post. With such nonsense knowledge, they are posted in big post. He does not know who is the author of Bhāgavata . Here it is distinctly said: "I learned it from my father." So his father is Vyāsadeva. You take this verse. If anyone says . . . so Śukadeva Gosvāmī is the speaker of Bhāgavata , he's admitting that "I've learned it from my father." And where the Bopadeva comes? Is that right? Devotees: Yes, right. Devotee: I was trying . . . that if I began to oppose him, then he would not take the book. Prabhupāda: No, no. Scholarly. Just present that here is the . . . Śukadeva Gosvāmī is the speaker of *Bhāgavatam* . He says: "I learned it from my father." And who is his father? Bopadeva or Vyāsadeva? This is going on. That is finished . . . (indistinct) Mahāṁsa: Yes. Only two of them. One of them is here, but he was not at home, and the other one is out of station. So we'll get their signature when they come. Prabhupāda: Two of them have signed. *Mahāṁsa: Yes. Hariprasad and Shrinivas, they have both signed. And Shri Krishnan*-dyuta, he's here but he was not at home or something. Prabhupāda: He'll sign? Mahāṁsa: Yes. He will do whatever Hariprasad says, and Omkar Lal is the youngest brother, so he will also sign. Shall I keep this, or would you like to keep it here? Prabhupāda: As you like. You can keep it. Mahāṁsa: I'll lock it up. Prabhupāda: What is that? Group? (indistinct comments by devotees) (pause) Devotee: When I speak to some of these archaeologists that I meet, these professors, I ask them do they believe in the historical validity of this *Mahābhārata* and *Bhāgavatam* , and they say: "Personally, I believe, but officially we have to follow the archaeology, the techniques of measuring the time." So they have two faces: one for official life and one for personal life. Prabhupāda: Duplicity. Duplicity. Devotee: Yes. But there are some of them who are trying to prove also that the *Mahābhārata* was historical. Prabhupāda: *Mahābhārata* , that very name suggests history. "Bigger India." Mahā means bigger, and Bhārata means India. Can you answer? *Prabhaviṣṇu: There is one verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā , in Chapter Seven: *The meaning of this verse is that all living beings in the material world are born into delusion, overcome by the duality of desire and hate. So the fact is that the living entity, he desires to become great. Just like God is very great, so the living entity wants to imitate God, and therefore he comes in this material world, and he tries to become great and very powerful. This is desire. He tries to enjoy himself. And also icchā*-dveṣa : he becomes envious of the Lord. Most people . . . many people in the material world, they don't like to admit that God exists or that there is someone greater than themselves, because they think themselves to be the greatest. This is the disease of material life. But the cure for this disease that we have to accept . . . Prabhupāda: You know that? There are so many rascals, they say: "I'm God." You know that? That is the problem. If somebody says: "I am God," is it a fact? But he says like that. He's such a rascal. That is the point. Indian man: In spite of all falsehood, people accept him as God. Prabhupāda: Rascals. Indian man: Some people, they are . . . (indistinct) Vāsughoṣa: This man has come to read the Oriya book. He can read Oriya. So . . . he wanted someone to translate. They have come. Prabhupāda: Where is that Oriya book? Find out. Harikeśa: The one Gargamuni . . . Vāsughoṣa: Yes. Orissan language, Orissan language. Prabhupāda: (loud kirtan ) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Do you think that realization is good, if anyone realizes that he is God? Do you think he has actually realized anything? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is the proof? Everyone can say, "I am God," but where is the proof? He must act like God. If somebody says, "I am the richest man," simply this statement will do, or we must see how he is rich? (pause) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Give him. Devotee: You can read. Indian man: (indistinct) . . . Founder Śrī Śrīmad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm, (loud kirtana ). Indian man: (indistinct) . . . founder Śrī Śrīmad . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- August 25, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: I am sitting in this room. Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: And if by force you drag me away, I shall go to another room. Because I'll have another room. But because you have forcibly driven me away, you are criminal. Similarly, a living entity is ordained to live in a certain body for a certain period. If you kill, that is the interference with his staying there. You are criminal. Indian man: Yes, that is true. Prabhupāda: The soul is never killed. Never killed. But because you have forcibly driven away from that body, you become criminal. That is the philosophy. Indian man: Yes. Now, assuming . . . Prabhupāda: So you cannot do that. Indian man: Assuming that, everyone . . . Prabhupāda: Not assuming. This is the fact. (laughter) Indian man: No, assuming this end. I am putting a question. Every man who took part in the Kurukṣetra war, assuming that they are to be killed, they are destined to be killed. Then when they are killed, then Kṛṣṇa's argument is the soul . . . the body perishes but the soul is eternal. Prabhupāda: Soul is eternal . . . Indian man: . . . the soul. How you are reconciling it if you say that the . . . I mean what a man is different from Kṛṣṇa? Or ātmā is different from Paramātmā? If you say that, then how do you say that ātmā is eternal? And what is the fate of the ātmā ? Prabhupāda: No, ātmā is eternal. That is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Why don't you understand? Ātmā is eternal, God is eternal. But the difference is, next line, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . That one ātmā , God, He is maintaining others, and the others are being maintained. So how you can make equal the maintainer and the maintained? First of all, try to understand. Indian man: The question is, even if you take it, advaita philosophy also, there is a . . . the ātmā has to go and merge with the Paramātmā, but they didn't say that they're equal. I don't think even the advaita philosophy also . . . Prabhupāda: How they can be equal? Indian man: They cannot be, cannot be. Prabhupāda: Cannot be, yes. But they say equal. Indian man: No. They don't say that equal. Prabhupāda: Yes, he says like that. Indian devotee: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: He doesn't say anywhere, also nobody should say that. Indian devotee: The . . . (indistinct) . . . recently said that. Indian man: Don't take it from one sentence and try to enlarge it. Take it in the context. Indian devotee: They always say this. *Prabhupāda: I do not hear. You hear, he hears. If he says something else . . . that . . . this is therefore Caitanya's philosophy is acintya*-bhedābheda, that as ātmā , they're equal. Ātmā . But one is Paramātmā, because He is maintainer. Therefore . . . Indian man: Yes. All the creation, the world, it is one way out of that Paramātmā. Prabhupāda: Paramātmā. So therefore Paramātmā is the Supreme, and he is subordinate. So how the Supreme and subordinate can be equal? Indian man: No, they can never be equal. Never be equal and never and . . . no philosophy, even any branch of philosophy, does not say that a human being is equal to . . . Prabhupāda: No, their philosophy is, as you said, that this subordinate ātmā has forgotten that he is Paramātmā. Indian devotee: Yes, it is a main point. The seeker has forgotten that he is the sought. Indian man: He has forgotten means simply the potential that you have within you, you have to realize it and come closer to the Paramātmā. That is what it means . . . Prabhupāda: If you have got the potency to become Paramātmā, then how you became ātmā ? Indian devotee: Yes. Indian man: The potential to come near to Paramātmā. Prabhupāda: Near, that is one thing. You are near to me. That means we are not equal. You are a separate person, I am a separate person. Indian man: But even what has been told by him, he is Veda , Vedāntī , anybody, he doesn't come to ātmā is going to Paramātmā. He never says that. That mathematic equation . . . Indian devotee: They say that the ātmā has forgotten. They say that ātmā has come into the clutches of the māyā . When you get rid of the māyā you become Paramātmā. Indian man: That is not . . . you don't become Paramātmā. You become Paramātmā means that . . . you don't understand Paramātmā. Paramātmā is the Supreme, Supreme Soul. How can you become . . . Prabhupāda: Then you have to accept Paramātmā and ātmā different. Indian man: Different, that is true. *Prabhupāda: Then dvaita*-vāda. Where is advaita ? Indian man: Even dvaita does not, something different from advaitam , in this particular fundamental. But even advaitam does not say that ātmā is equal to Paramātmā. He never says that. You have māyā . Māyā will be field to you, and that you get rid of that māyā and you try to elevate your soul to the ātmā . And you come, go to the Paramātmā. *Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of spiritual lesson. Because that is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā . Every one of us, we are identifying with this body. Just like if somebody asks what you are, "I am Mr. Such-and-such, I am Indian, I am this, I am that." He is giving identification of the body. But that he is not. He's not this body. That is self-realization. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā , dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13)—two things— deha , this body, and asmin dehe , there is dehinaḥ , the owner of the body. That is the beginning of spiritual education. Because generally almost 99.9% people, they are thinking that "I am this body." Indian man: Well, that is true, that is . . . Prabhupāda: So that is another thing. Indian man: That attachment to the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That attachment or no attachment, he is different from the body. That is the first lesson of spiritual education, that one has to understand that he is not the body. That is Brahman realization. Indian man: No, after having realized that, we have to discipline ourselves so much. *Prabhupāda: Now that individual soul and the Supreme Soul, Paramātmā, they are also different. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā in the Second Chapter. Kṛṣṇa says: "My dear Arjuna, both you, Me and all these persons who are assembled here, we existed in the past, and we are existing now, and we shall continue to exist." So when they become one? Past, present and future. As they were different persons in the past, they are different persons now, and they will continue to remain different persons in the future. So when they become one? Indian man: Now we take it, small particles of water makes an ocean. Prabhupāda: That cannot be. Here Kṛṣṇa says that we shall remain like this in the future. Indian man: We can't get new to be . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is no amalgamation. It is clearly stated. Indian man: Even a drop of water, when you take it from the glass and put it on this one, another drop of water will come, and when you put it in medicine it won't come in water. Like that, ātmā , will it not merge with the Paramātmā? Prabhupāda: That water is matter, that is not spirit. But we are talking of spirit. You cannot bring matter. No, that analogy cannot be, because similarity. The water is different—matter. And you are talking of spirit souls. Here it is stated that the spirit soul individually, they'll never amalgamate. Acchedyo 'yam (BG 2.24). They cannot be separated . . . Indian man: Then what is the aim of bhakti if you are not going to merge with Paramātmā? *Prabhupāda: Bhakti . . . you try . . . you read carefully. Because you do not read, therefore . . . nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Nitya-yuktā upāsate (BG 9.14). When they come to the point of nitya , there also the upāsana is there. One nitya is worshiping the other nitya . That is nitya-yuktā upāsate . Indian man: Upāsana . . . upāsana means . . . Prabhupāda: Upāsana means upāsaka, upāsana and upāsita . Three things. As soon as you bring upāsana , there must be one person who is offering upāsana , and there is a process of upāsana , and the other person accepting upāsana . *Indian man: Then we're assuming that we're . . . actually the idea of śuddha*-bhakti is . . . *Prabhupāda: Bhakti means that. Nitya*-yuktā upāsana . That's all. Upāsana continues. Here they're upāsana . Here the devotees offering worship to the Deity, it is upāsana . And after being perfect, that upāsana will continue. It will never stop. Indian man: It will never stop, that's the fact. That is, when a man attains to . . . Prabhupāda: But Māyāvādī philosophy is that you offer upāsana now, and when you are perfect you become one. Indian man: Not one. I mean you merge with one. Not you become one. You merge with one. *Prabhupāda: Then there is no advaita*-vāda . There is dvaita-vāda . Two. There is no advaita-vāda . If you accept that you remain different, then there is no advaita . Indian man: We don't dare, do you see, ācchā , at a particular stage you like to merge with Him? Prabhupāda: Meeting, I am meeting you. That does not mean we have become one. You are meeting me, I am meeting you. So we are different. Indian man: What is ultimate object of that bhakti ? Prabhupāda: Ultimate object is you are offering this flower—this is bhakti . But you are different than me. Indian man: That's all right. That is all right. That bhakti , you can call it love, you can call it in various ways. Bhakti means surrender. Prabhupāda: Bhakti means the process by which Bhagavān and bhakta interact. That is bhakti . Indian man: That's all? He gains with that interaction? Prabhupāda: Interaction. That does not mean bhakta and Bhagavān become equal. *Indian man: Bhakta and Bhagavān may not be equal, but even the bhakti*-mārga , and we say the Bhagavān Himself declares that, "My bhakta is more superior to Me." Prabhupāda: That's all right. You say whatever you say, they remain two—different. Indian man: They may remain two . . . *Prabhupāda: Then that is not advaita*-vāda . That is dvaita-vāda . Two, two. Not one. That is dvaita-vāda . That is the point. Indian man: You mean to say eternally there is a soul and . . . this ātmā and Paramātmā will remain separate? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the . . . therefore it is said, nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Therefore the word is there, nitya-yuktā. Nitya means everlasting. Indian man: Yes. Everlasting. We will remain separate. Prabhupāda: Separate. And that is a fact. *Devotee: Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ (BG 15.7). *Prabhupāda: There are so many things. But here it is said, nitya*-yuktā upāsate . Even they come to the platform of nitya , where there is no birth and death—that is nitya, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20)—even that platform, Bhagavān remains different than the devotee who worships. Indian man: Eternally? *Prabhupāda: Eternally. That is nitya*-yuktā upāsate . There is no oneness. Otherwise why it is nitya-yuktā upāsate ? Nityo nityānām . The nityānām , plural number, and nitya , Bhagavān. So nitya-yuktā upāsate. *Indian man: Then if you take the kevala*-bhaktas , if you take the life of a bhakta . . . *Prabhupāda: If you take logic, it is stated there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . *Indian man: If you take bhakta*-vidyā , where so many sayings like Chakubhai and Namdev and all these people. If you take it . . . they had . . . they observed bhakti-mārga from the beginning. That is, they considered Kṛṣṇa . . . *Prabhupāda: No, they have considered that the bhakti*-mārga is a means to become one. Indian man: Means to become one. That's exactly what I mean. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their version. But that is not the version of Bhagavad*-gītā . *Indian man: Yes, it's the only way. Bhakti*-mārga is only mārga . It is only way to become one. *Prabhupāda: No. They never become one. Therefore nitya*-yuktā upāsate . Indian man: Then why should we say in our . . .? Prabhupāda: You can say anything, but that is not accepted. We have to accept Kṛṣṇa's statement. You can say anything. Indian man: Sir, I am not saying. That is what I am taught. Prabhupāda: At least, you are saying now. So, then which one you will take? As you are taught, or as Kṛṣṇa said it? Indian man: Merge with the Lord. Mirabhai, "Merge with the Lord," and Chakubhai, "Merge with the Lord." Prabhupāda: You bring thousands of examples. Indian man: Then what is that merging? Prabhupāda: No, no. You bring thousands of examples, but whether we have to accept them or Kṛṣṇa? Indian man: I mean the doubt I am having, I mean . . . *Prabhupāda: Then you, you now you just become out of doubt. That . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Seventh Chapter, mayy āsakta*-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ asaṁśayam (BG 7.1). Here is asaṁśayam . "No doubt." Why you are in doubt? You do not accept Kṛṣṇa. You accept somebody else. Indian man: Not a question of accepting. We are all ignorant people in the field of . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore you are in doubt. Indian man: We are . . . we have . . . *Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are in doubt. If you want to be doubtless, then you accept Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta*-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Āśrayaḥ . Not that equal footing. Mad-āśrayaḥ. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu (BG 7.1). So you have to accept Kṛṣṇa, if you become . . . if you want to become doubtless. Otherwise, you'll be put into doubt. Here it is said asaṁśayam , "Without any doubt." That is the process. And if you want to remain in doubt, you continue. You accept this man, that man, that man, that man, that man. That is your business. But if you want to be doubtless, then you have to accept Kṛṣṇa. *Indian man: So we say in the bhakti*-mārga for eternally the Paramātmā and ātmā will remain separate, separate entities. Prabhupāda: And that is always. You cannot become one with Him. Indian man: Then in what levels the man got to remain in a separate entity? Always in the same as bhakta ? *Prabhupāda: Nitya*-yuktā upāsate . The one is worshipable, another is worshiper. That's all. Nitya-yuktā upāsate. Upāsate means the worshipable is there and the worshiper is there. Then the question of upāsana . If they become one, then where is upāsana ? Indian man: Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling. At one stage . . . Prabhupāda: But that is not the fact. Here it is said upāsate. Upāsate means he worships. So if he loses his existence, then where is worship? Indian man: No. Ātman's got to go on practicing and try to become pure and purer and pure, at one stage. Prabhupāda: Without being pure you cannot go there. There is no question of upāsana . *Unless you are completely free from all sinful reaction, there is no upāsana . That is practice. That is practice. Just like neophyte, one is practicing. Just like one student is practicing. That is sa bhakta prakṛta smṛta . This is material. But when you are pakkā , practiced, then you go to the nitya*-dhāma . And your business is the same. Here it is practice and there it is permanent. That's all. Nitya-yuktā upāsate. The upāsana continues. Indian man: That is. Then our object is to get rid of the birth, birth and death, that we want to be eternal. From there you want to get rid of your birth and death. That is birth and death. *Prabhupāda: Birth and death you stop as soon as you give up this material body. Material body, the birth question comes of the material body. And death also material body. Therefore it is clearly said in the Bhagavad*-gītā , na jāyate na mriyate vā (BG 2.20). Indian man: Yes, you are trying to do sādhanas to see what . . . Prabhupāda: First of all, understand this, that the soul is never born, never dies. But we are seeing birth and death. What is that birth and death? It is of the body. But you are different from the body. Indian man: Yes, I am different. My soul is different, the ātmā different from the body. That is the foregone conclusion. Prabhupāda: Birth and death applies to the body, not to the soul. Indian man: Yes. That, your karmas , you enjoy and suffer according to your karma . Prabhupāda: That is body, all body. Indian man: That is body. How long you are going to do that? Prabhupāda: So long you are not a devotee. Indian man: I mean even if I am a devotee, I go on doing some sins . . . *Prabhupāda: You become devotee, then immediately transfer to the nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Indian man: Yes, I become a devotee, a true devotee . . . Prabhupāda: When you become a perfect devotee then you are transferred to the eternal world, and your engagement is upāsana eternally. Indian man: The eternal world. What is that eternal world? *Prabhupāda: That you do not know? You read, study. Have you studied Bhagavad*-gītā ? Do you know that there is an eternal world? There is an eternal world. Do you know that? Indian man: Our śāstras say eternal world . . . Prabhupāda: Then why do you . . .? Indian man: Man is eternal world by going and enjoying there in mokṣa there. Prabhupāda: So that is mokṣa . When you go to the eternal world, that is mokṣa . That is mokṣa . Indian man: Do you separate the eternal world from the Paramātmā? It is something, a world like our material world that we have got, physical world that we have got, is going to be out of, the eternal world? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). This word is used, sanātana. Sanātana means eternal. There is another world. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ. Find out this verse. Everything is there. Hari-śauri: We have to start packing up now. It's quarter past six. We have to leave in ten minutes. Prabhupāda: So now we have to stop. We have to leave. You just refer that verse. Vāsughoṣa: Prabhupāda: Na vinaśyati. The material world will be finished, and that will remain. Vāsughoṣa: "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." Prabhupāda: That is sanātana . Vāsughoṣa: "Kṛṣṇa's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahmā. Kṛṣṇa's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter." And the next verse? *Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. There is an eternal world, sanātana . That is never annihilated. So when you go to that sanātana*-dhāma , God is there, sanātana , and there you live eternally and go on rendering service to God. That is all. There is no question of oneness. The variety is there, but there the varieties are eternal; here the varieties are temporary. That is difference. Everything is explained. So thank you very much. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- August 31, 1976, Delhi (Meeting With Member of Parliament, Mr. Krishna Modi) *Prabhupāda: Tabhiyat theek hai? hamara tabiyat kuch pheeka*-pheeka hai. (Are you in good health? My health is not doing so good.) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is always traveling. Prabhupāda: Thoda time ka jaroorat hai. (A little bit of time is needed.) Krishna Modi: It is needed. *Prabhupāda: This is the only hope. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet ( SB 12.3.51). Throughout the whole world, the situation is not very good. Now there is drought, no water. All over the world. I have seen whole Europe, all the fields are now gray, no green. Idhar to khoob pani baras raha hai. (Here it is raining very heavily.) Krishna Modi: India this year is very good rains. Beyond expectation. And also this crop is very good. *Prabhupāda: Barasat hone se crop hoga. (Only if it rains there will be crops.) Parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ. Nature's work is there. As soon as there is sufficient rain you get sufficient crops. And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). Kali-yuga, this age, the yajña is hari-kīrtana . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ . Ek mandir me sankirtan ka ayojan kijiye sab theek ho jayega. (In one temple organize congregational chanting, everything will be alright.) Krishna Modi: Who can do this thing? Prabhupāda: We can do that. We can do that. Provided there is cooperation. Krishna Modi: Oh, that is good. Prabhupāda: Now . . . Krishna Modi: They have not given your phone number of this place. I was not in idea that they had shifted you. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Tejiyas did not tell you. Krishna Modi: And therefore I have phoned and phoned and phoned, but I was not getting anything. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When was this? Long time ago? Krishna Modi: No. Yesterday. Because yesterday I was to come here. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You got called by . . . *Krishna Modi: But I was called by Mr. Home Minister Brahmānanda Reddy, and he told me that you have come here . . . (indistinct) . . . so that I want to know something . . . (indistinct) . . . asking me. One question was put up in Rājya*-sabhā, and he's . . . (indistinct) . . . there. I told him that he's . . . (indistinct) . . . There are some gentlemen of, er . . . Labor Minister and from . . . (indistinct) . . . gentleman and they have come from Andhra Pradesh. They were also there. One MP, Mr. D. D. Desai, he is also there. Some . . . (indistinct) . . . members. And there was . . . (indistinct) . . . and we have discussed at length. And we have told them, and there is no restriction . . . (indistinct) . . . the size and to everybody. And you see then it is in Indian history, it is first time that something has been done. All people are saying that they have done in America, they have done in so many centers all over the world, and then we are, something like that, it is shameful. Prabhupāda: It is Indian culture. Krishna Modi: Indian culture. Then he told me that you are perfectly right, and I am also an Indian and I have that right also, that we have no knowledge about all these things. If you have something, then you please let us know so that we may inquire the particular matter. And I told him that you inquire first, and then why I should have to inquire? Why I have? There is no matter, no anything, then how can I give the order for inquiry? On what basis? Let the something come, then I will . . . and I told them that why you are harassing? Visa, and visa, all these things, this passport, and in all these things, and you say that you go over and . . . why you are? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Visa. Krishna Modi: Visa. Why you are harassing? I will check up. And you write me a letter so that I may call the Consulate man on the visas so that I may discuss it. And at length there was a discussion, and that was refuted because there are two, three gentlemen, personalities from Andhra, they also supported in a very . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda addressed the whole Andhra Pradesh cabinet in Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: I was invited by the . . . Krishna Modi: Yes, they have told, they have told. And they have told also that . . . no, no, no, no, no, no. For . . . (indistinct) . . . they are the . . . (indistinct) . . . and we must respect them. And if anybody says something against them, and we must be very careful about that. And we cannot object to it. Then all we have got the same opinion . . . (indistinct) . . . and we have to . . . (indistinct) . . . this is the thing. Now about this thing . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Blitz article. Krishna Modi: . . . Blitz article. You should not reply. I advised that. You should not reply to all these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We gave the reply to . . . Krishna Modi: To me. And . . . *Prabhupāda: Aaj barah baje tak humlog ka upwas hai Radharani ka janmdin. (Today we are fasting until 12 o'clock on the occasion of Radharani's birthday.) We shall take after twelve (half*-day fast for Rādhāṣṭamī), later prasādam . Krishna Modi: If Gurudeva is hungry. How I can take before? Prabhupāda: No, you can take. You can take. Krishna Modi: You give something so that we . . . Prabhupāda: No. You give the whole thing to him . . . (indistinct) . . . and you have brought . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: I will arrange. Prabhupāda: Isko to lijiye. (Take this.) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sweet and kṣīra . Mahā*-prasādam . Nahi bad me lenge . . . (No, I will take afterwards . . .) Krishna Modi: You will reply and also the article, so that I am arranging to call all the members Parliament they are concerning with this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. They are some members, so you give me the list of bad members also. And then we will discuss all the matters, and you will . . . then we will give the articles to all the other papers from our side. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That will be very nice. Krishna Modi: Illustrated Weekly or News or Kalyani . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Illustrated Weekly is atheistic. Kushwant Singh, the editor, openly told us that "I don't believe in God." But Danyug is religious. Krishna Modi: You don't mind for that. We will give. And MPs will write and sign, then we . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We will have the . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: Find out . . . (indistinct) . . . and if you don't mind, I will give one suggestion more. In the Indian national interest, in this country's interest, that I should prepare some interested members to see all over the world, our, this . . . Prabhupāda: That will be very nice. Krishna Modi: So that . . . let them ticket hire and air freight and all that should be paid by them. Let them support. Prabhupāda: We have got branches in almost all important cities. Krishna Modi: Ten or fifteen. Let them see, so that they may be attracted and they may know each and every thing. Because here we know only by this thing. And then let us advertise about. Prabhupāda: You take this paper. Make a list of important cities. Now suppose if you go from Delhi. So you can go first to Paris, Geneva, Rome, then London, Amsterdam, Stockholm. Then from London I think . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: America. Prabhupāda: . . . New York, Boston, Montreal, Canada. Then you go to the western side—Los Angeles, San Francisco . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Vancouver. Prabhupāda: Vancouver. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Canada. Prabhupāda: Go further, Honolulu. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Then you could go to the Pacific, Australia. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New Zealand, Sydney. Prabhupāda: Australia, Sydney, Melbourne. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You can stop in Japan on the way. Krishna Modi: Let us have a program, make a program so that some . . . Prabhupāda: In every big city . . . Krishna Modi: Five or ten, they should go with all their expenses. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can stay at our temples, wherever they go. We will pick them up at the airport and bring them to the temple. *Krishna Modi: Pre*-arrangement should be done by our . . . this thing, this transport and fooding and lodging. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Local transport and . . . Krishna Modi: That is. So that I may fix up this program with the . . . Prabhupāda: Very good. Krishna Modi: . . . ten or fifteen people, so that they may go and see and all these things, and then they can also, if any question comes in the House, then they can oppose like anything. And they should submit their report also to the Prime Minister, Home Minister, to everybody, and to House also. And "This thing has been done, and we must be proud about that, that some . . ." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And to start out they can come to Vṛndāvana, which is right nearby. We can take them in a bus. We have a beautiful center in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. Krishna Modi: Yes, that because this is in India. Whenever they like, they will see it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So when can they organize this tour? How soon can it be organized? Krishna Modi: I'll ask them. I have an idea about that only. Because yesterday Mr. Brahmānanda Reddy already told me that, "Why not you people also stand up and say something about that? Why not you strengthen my hands? Because they press and press and they want something that I should say something. So if you people stand and then you say that, 'No, no, no, no. This is not the thing, and we have seen it and this and this and that and that.' And they will be . . ." That is his idea. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But the only people who are pressing charges are the Communists. They are just trying to . . . Krishna Modi: But they will do. That is their duty. Prabhupāda: They are atheists. Krishna Modi: Yes. So that why we should mind for that? That is there. You may say they're rākṣasa , or whatever you give the . . . (laughs) They will, always they will . . . Prabhupāda: Rākṣasas are always ready to kill God. That was the business of Rāvaṇa, that was the business of Kaṁsa, that was the business of Hiraṇyakaśipu. Krishna Modi: That is the same thing in Rāvaṇa and this . . . what is this, at that time. That is the same thing. They were happy, they were drink and all these things, and take on and all that time, and also harassing the devotees and . . . this is their duty. Indian man: Very . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: This is their duty. Therefore we should not mind for that. Let them do it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, even Russia, which is Communist, has admired Prabhupāda's books. I have written reviews—I was in Russia two months ago—from them, praising Prabhupāda's books very much. The leading professors there. Krishna Modi: Also, this is a part of nowadays—advertise and all these things, to know each and every thing. This is correct, that why you are worrying about all these things? People should know it about you. Why not hear it? This is perfectly right, I agree with you. But in the interest of other people who have faith in their religion . . . *Prabhupāda: No, our mission is that this Kṛṣṇa cult should be preached all over the world. That is the Bhagavad*-gītā decision. Find out this verse, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). (devotees look for verse) Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ . Eighteenth Chapter. Mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati . Hari-śauri: Is that the one, "There's no one more dear to me than . . ."? "There's no one more dear"? (to devotee) It's that one, "There's no one more dear." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in black Africa Prabhupāda has temples. Krishna Modi: Yes, that is good. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I say even in black Africa you have temples and devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Modi: You must circulate these all things. At least to our members. Prabhupāda: Read it. Lokanātha: Where is the verse? Prabhupāda: Why don't you print the opinions? Several times . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have printed. Prabhupāda: Where is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, I have it. We have printed the reviews in all, and the Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is Authorized. Prabhupāda: That is a simple thing, but all the reviews you should print them in book. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In a book form. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are hundreds of reviews. Krishna Modi: And you should also supply that to at least your interested members, interested Parliament only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll design a special booklet just for . . . Prabhupāda: I am asking you for so many months that you publish all these opinions. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have all the opinions, but we presently have them in sheets, not in a book form. We can put it in . . . Prabhupāda: Where is that? Where is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In the sheets? Oh, I have. Yes, I have most of the reviews, book reviews, with me. Prabhupāda: So, where is that? Bring it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Lokanātha: Read it? Translation: "For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me." Read the purport? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Lokanātha: Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: "Generally it is advised that Bhagavad*-gītā be discussed amongst the devotees only, for those who are not devotees will neither understand Kṛṣṇa nor Bhagavad-gītā . Those who do not accept Kṛṣṇa as He is and Bhagavad-gītā as it is should not try to explain Bhagavad-gītā whimsically and become offenders. Bhagavad-gītā should be explained to persons who are ready to accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is a subject matter for devotees only and not for philosophical speculators. Anyone, however, who tries sincerely to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is will advance in devotional activities and reach the pure devotional state of life. As a result of such pure devotion, he is sure to go back home, back to Godhead." Prabhupāda: What is this? Krishna Modi: That is Blitz. Prabhupāda: Oh. It is new? Hari-śauri: No, this is the first article. Krishna Modi: And second article also they have given? Hari-śauri: Yes, there's another one. Small. Krishna Modi: Blitz has given second article also? Hari-śauri: Yes, this last week's issue. This one's from two or three weeks ago. Devotee: It's two weeks ago, and last week . . . every week they . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: Where is that? Hari-śauri: You have that second article? Krishna Modi: That you are giving me today? Devotee: Gopala Krsna will have. Krishna Modi: Then he will give? Hari-śauri: (aside) Bring that second article. Prabhupāda: (reads newspaper headlines) Blitz . . . (indistinct) . . . "Ungodly face of Kṛṣṇa." Krishna Modi: They must say like that. (laughs) Devotee: This is for you. This is the second part of it. This is the second version. Krishna Modi: Of this. Devotee: Yes. Krishna Modi: They must say it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These books have been acclaimed by scholars all over the world. Krishna Modi: Not world, but you give us only Indian, Indian. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want only the Indian. Krishna Modi: Yes. Hari-śauri: This is second one. This is last week. Krishna Modi: This Andhra government also are Kṛṣṇa culture. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Such bogus. Prabhupāda: No, all the ministers of Andhra government, they came to our opening ceremony of the temple. Chief Minister spoke, and the Endowment Minister, Suraj Narayan, Raju. He's a nice devotee. Le aao, patti le aao, patti, kele ka patti hai? (Bring, bring the leaf . . . leaf, you have banana leaf?) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have Britannic Encyclopedia . . . Prabhupāda: Where is the opinion of the Russian? Krishna Modi: This is nothing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the way it is now. They're telling everyone that the Andhra government is . . . Krishna Modi: This is nothing, I think. I don't think it is anything wrong. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "Falls for Kṛṣṇa." Krishna Modi: That is another thing. But in article they have told nothing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They try to indirectly say . . . Krishna Modi: Ah, that is not . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they have nothing to prove . . . Krishna Modi: Prove them therefore . . . let them say like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Britannic Encyclopedia on the book of the year, they only have about a hundred selected personalities of the world, and they had a biography on Prabhupāda. Krishna Modi: Now I think we must systematically discuss this matter. Now I think it is decided . . . Prabhupāda: Ek sutli le aao, usko bandh de. (Bring a cord and tie this up.) Krishna Modi: It is now decided that you will give us all the Indian . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also should we give you what Indian professors have wrote? Like this Dr. Mahesh Mehta at the University of Windsor. Some of the Indian professors in America are very . . . Indians in India and Indians abroad. Krishna Modi: Yes, yes, yes. Indians, all Indians abroad. Abroad and also Communist countries if anybody. Give us any report. Russia, like that, you should give us in a file, make a file. And one thing is this. Now second is that when we are . . . Prabhupāda: This is a good book advertisement. (laughs) "Andhra government falls for Kṛṣṇa . . ." Krishna Modi: (laughs) No, he has not written anything. It is only it seems that . . . what can be said about . . . Prabhupāda: Whole government is supporting. Krishna Modi: Supporting. His meaning is this, that this Congress government is also doing all these mischiefs, so that they will . . . (laughs) That his main idea, and nothing else. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are also victimized by this Kṛṣṇa cult. Krishna Modi: One thing, then, you will give us all . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Reviews. Krishna Modi: . . . these recorded informations and all these . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And also we give you letters of leading ācāryas of India who are . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: No harm. And second thing, after three months, or at the time of session, you must call the MPs for a time only for taking prasāda . And they'll come. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Four or five? All of them? Krishna Modi: Four, five, and we will bring so many. So that let them . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have few movies on our movement. Like one is on our New Vṛndāvana farm, which shows how the Indian Vedic way of life is being adapted even in America on the farm. A movie on the Hare Kṛṣṇa people . . . Krishna Modi: You show them at that time. I will invite. Just say you have shown that in Tirupati's house, Hare Kṛṣṇa picture, that. And that is very impressive. Everybody appreciates that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have two more movies like that. Krishna Modi: Ah, then you must . . . I will arrange for that. In October we are meeting again after 25th. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When the session is over or almost over? *Krishna Modi: No, session is for today, that's all. Then it is over. Then at any time, you meet me. I will invite them. I will invite them. So that let them come—ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty*-five, thirty—let them come, and let them see, and let them . . . so that our number must be . . . and third, I will request you, make a program. I will make for this work. Let them see for one month program. And they will pay all their air freight, all these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And local transportation, local accommodation . . . Krishna Modi: Local accommodation and all, that should be managed, and nothing else. So that let them know each and every thing so that they may . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we will give the reply to Blitz to you? Krishna Modi: Yes, give me so that we will . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll give it to you this evening or leave it in your house. Krishna Modi: Okay. So before 5th I will give some good papers for that . . . giving our names also. In our name. These articles will be published in our name. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want us to give you an article on ISKCON? A brief article? Or . . . Krishna Modi: No, you don't give the article. You give only that like and this thing. Then we will give. In Hindi also and in English and Gujarati. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. That will be very nice. We will do that. *Krishna Modi: Agar unke paas pada hai to, sab bhuke*-vukhe hai to . . . ha communist . . . (If it is lying with him and everyone is hungry, then . . . yes, communist . . .) They don't want anything. They say that religious is a opium. So that what you are doing . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . they are not liking. If they are in power then they can do like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They did it in Russia. Krishna Modi: Because their theory is this: That this God and all these religious matters, this is a opium, and this is a kind of, you may say it that in the umbrella, religious in the name of . . . Prabhupāda: And what they have done, the Communists? Krishna Modi: They have not done anything. They should not do anything. It is not their duty. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, countries like Russia and China, what actual progress they have made? Krishna Modi: That is . . . they say like that, that "We are giving very good food to everybody, very good house, and living, and all their garment, education, medical free. We are giving the to common men . . . Prabhupāda: Medical . . . (indistinct) . . . is free. Free medical service, education . . . (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . and in the offices of big, big professors and all, it looks so much lower than in America or Canada. Krishna Modi: And in the comparison of India? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, in some respects I found them even lower than India. You'll be amazed . . . I visited all the leading libraries of Russia and Leningrad, Moscow University Library, all the big libraries. These libraries don't have any foreign exchange for ordering these books. They all want to order . . . they were begging me for free books. They said: "Why don't you give us a donation or exchange?" They have a book exchange that if they give their books then we give our books. Each library gets such little foreign exchange allowance to buy books from abroad. Prabhupāda: A taxi driver, he was asking some bakshish . Krishna Modi: In Russia. Prabhupāda: And I was talking with Professor Kotovsky. I asked him, "Please call for a taxi." So he said, "Swāmījī, it is Moscow." That means taxis are not available. Then he came down with me, and from the gate he showed me, "You take this shortcut when you go to your hotel." He could not call a taxi. Taxis are not available. He said: "Oh, it is Moscow." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But even the taxi drivers are very corrupt because of the shortage of taxis in Russia. You have to stand in line for taxis. Prabhupāda: Not taxi—bus. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even for taxis they have no taxi stands where you stand in line. So the taxi driver, he will park his car a little bit away. Prabhupāda: In my opinion it is a poor country. I think poorer than India. Krishna Modi: They have advertised only. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have good propaganda. Prabhupāda: And people are not happy. They are terrorized. *Krishna Modi: That is correct. That is correct. In Parliament we are telling that they are a first*-class prisoner. First-class prison. *Prabhupāda: Yes. First*-class prisoners. Not first-class; *third*-class. (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But I was told . . . because a lot of people in Russia who are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa also. It's very . . . there's a lot of corruption. Even the taxi drivers are corrupt. They'll park their taxi a bit away then come and approach you when you are standing in a line and say: "Okay, I'll take you there," but he'll tell you three times the price because everyone's waiting in such a long line for a taxi. Prabhupāda: Black market. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And one friend of ours told us what they do, because all the cars belong to the state, a lot of taxis, the people . . . Krishna Modi: The taxis are not independent. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they all belong to the state. But the driver, if he makes extra money, that goes in his pocket. And they have tipping also. *Prabhupāda: And they are always anxious to get extra. Buses are not very good. Third*-class buses. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And a lot of people want foreign exchange there. Like they'll ask . . . Krishna Modi: I'm going. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You're going to Russia? When? Krishna Modi: Yes, on 4th of October. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For how long? Krishna Modi: About fifteen days. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Visit. Krishna Modi: Budapest also. Because I am not Communist, and I'm not supporting also Communist. Therefore they have not told that, "He should not be sent there." Told me. But due to some . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You are going to just Budapest? That is Hungary. Krishna Modi: Hungary, yes. Hungary then Moscow. Then Moscow, Leningrad. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. Actually, I can give you a book from Leningrad if you wish to . . . this is from Moscow if you want to read it. It's all about Moscow. These are of course the good pictures of Moscow. You wish to have it? I can give it to you. This is on Moscow. I also have one on Leningrad. Krishna Modi: I will take after lunch. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a letter from the biggest library in Russia to Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. They have ordered some books, and they want the remaining books but they wanted free, in exchange. But they don't have the money. They want all of Prabhupāda's books but they don't have the money, so they want in exchange. This is from the biggest library in Russia. Krishna Modi: Our economy is something good at this time. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Indian economy . . . Krishna Modi: Indian economy is better. Income tax also they have got 67% more. Because they have reduced the rate. Prabhupāda: What is the percentage? Krishna Modi: Before that the percentage is 97, but last year, is 1976, in the March they have reduced the income tax from 97 to 65 . . . 67 and a half. Prabhupāda: In America it is 25. Krishna Modi: No, not 25, that is 45. But there is a system in West Germany that if you earn more, the tax will be less. That is their system. If we will earn . . . (indistinct) . . . then the tax percentage will be lower. Lower. Prabhupāda: That is good. That is good. The psychology is that if you earn more and government will tax more, then the impetus for earning more is cut. Krishna Modi: That is the point. Therefore they have got no black money. And here the system is different. If you will earn more, then you will have to pay more. It means people are not as interested in earning. Prabhupāda: Therefore what is the use of earning? What is the use of earning? Krishna Modi: That is true. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they are reducing the . . . Krishna Modi: Then I will get all the replies and papers today. And I will arrange each and everything before 5th or 6th of September. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You leave here the 6th? Krishna Modi: Oh, no. I will leave today or tomorrow. But I will come and I will arrange all these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When are you coming back here? Krishna Modi: I will come back on 5th. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifth. Okay. So I'll meet you on the 5th then. Krishna Modi: No, I will ring you here. You give me the telephone number. No, we don't mind for them. We will crush them for all these things. They can't speak like that. If they will discredit India, then . . . Prabhupāda: One thing, general thing, that I am writing books and selling in foreign countries, and I'm bringing the money here. It is for India's sake. Krishna Modi: But somebody should tell in the House all these things. Prabhupāda: You can tell. Krishna Modi: That is the thing only. That is the point of Mr. Brahmānanda Reddy also. Yesterday he told me . . . Prabhupāda: This is the important point, that my books are sold daily sixty thousand dollars all over the world. I have made the Trust so all the collections should be divided fifty percent for constructing temple and fifty percent for reprinting books. But we don't take a paisa profit. So far as an author, they are selling, sixty thousand dollars. And even if I would have taken ten percent royalty then it would have been six thousand dollars. Six thousand dollars means . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hundred and eighty thousand dollars a month. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Six thousand dollars means . . . say ten rupees. Krishna Modi: Sixty thousand per day. Prabhupāda: Sixty thousand per day. Actually. But we are all foregoing it for pushing on this movement, and if we bring that money and construct big, big temple or planetarium, what is the harm to India? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is bringing in more foreign exchange than even big business export concerns. Prabhupāda: I'm bringing regularly not less than ten lakhs of rupees per month. Krishna Modi: Sending to India. We must tell them all these things. Prabhupāda: You tell. Krishna Modi: That is the thing. This is the Brahmānanda Reddy told yesterday that some members must be briefed and they must tell something, so that my hands may be strengthened and so that I may . . . Prabhupāda: It is a great credit that I am selling my books and bringing ten lakhs of rupees from foreign country in India. Krishna Modi: That we will speak. And his mind is very clear. Brahmānanda Reddy, his mind is very clear, very clear, and he is appreciating. And he is in our favor hundred percent. Prabhupāda: Even not in our favor, I am working hard in foreign countries and bringing money to India. You should give us some credit. But instead of giving credit, I am being criticized in the Parliament. Krishna Modi: They are putting like this. They are putting this case like that, that foreign money is coming here to advertise the American embassies, like that. They are that talking like that. Prabhupāda: They may talk nonsense, but this is the fact. This is the fact. I have got my Book Trust Fund, and I've advised regularly to send eight lakhs of rupees per month. That is being spent in Bombay, in . . . I'm not collecting from here. Krishna Modi: That is correct. Prabhupāda: So if a Indian brings from foreign country by his labor eight lakhs of rupees per month, how much credit he should be given? He should be recognized. But instead of recognizing they are criticizing. Krishna Modi: This is their way, sir. That is their . . . they have to. They must do it. Because . . . Prabhupāda: So you kindly speak to the Parliament that, "This is the position, that he is working day and night . . ." Krishna Modi: Oh, no, I will speak very high about this. Let them . . . let the matter come. And if not come then we will take this matter. I will give the question. You please reply how much money is coming and in what way they are doing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Modi: I will ask the question. Prabhupāda: Prove that the American government is supplying some way. No. We are selling our books. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, when you go abroad you can even see how our income's coming, how our temples live. We are all over the world. Prabhupāda: That is our books are being printed. Krishna Modi: A very big thing it is. It is marvelous that you have done such a thing. It is proud of India that . . . *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New York devotees just got a twelve*-story building right in the center, and I know the local Hindus, they are trying to build a small temple since twenty years, and they're not succeeding. And right in the center of New York we have a twelve-story building. Now all the Hindus are coming to us. Prabhupāda: You have got that picture, New York temple? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Ratha*-yātrā picture? (discussion about who has pictures) Ratha-yātrā, the New York paper. Hari-śauri: In the new magazine. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New York Times, Newsweek. All the Indians came. They said, "East Meets West." Prabhupāda: Now who has converted so many of . . . this is one party. (referring to kīrtana going on in temple room) Hundreds of parties like this, they are engaged in kīrtana . India government is sending so many professional dancers by paying them from the cultural department, and what I am getting? Not a single farthing. And still I am bringing. Krishna Modi: Ah, Indian culture is . . . you . . . nobody has done these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like gurukula . *Prabhupāda: The Ratha*-yātrā festival, where is? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, the news of Ratha*-yātrā. Here. "New York Celebrates Festival of Chariots." Even at the U.N. conference we were there. They welcomed Vedic . . . we presented a Vedic reply to the U.N. conference. Prabhupāda: Wherever possible we are presenting Vedic culture, Indian culture. And I have no support from the government. Krishna Modi: Let us have. Prabhupāda: And a professional dancer is going, and the government is paying. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'd like you to take this, because this also has an article at length about our gurukula system in America. (indistinct explanation) Prabhupāda: Unless they are appreciating this culture, how they are accepting? Krishna Modi: It is perfectly right. But they must do it like that. Prabhupāda: Who will do? Do it . . . we can give you all information. Krishna Modi: That I will speak each and every thing. I will give a speech about all these things in any way. I have got . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This one is later. Just came. This is only a sample copy that we have. Krishna Modi: And what is your program, sir? Prabhupāda: My program is chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and write books. That's all. Krishna Modi: No, no, now. Staying in India. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am going to Vṛndāvana. Krishna Modi: Today? Prabhupāda: Tomorrow. Aaplog sab Brindavan ek din aaiye na. (You all come one day to Vṛndāvana.) Krishna Modi: And you are staying at Vṛndāvana up to . . . Prabhupāda: At least three weeks. Krishna Modi: Three weeks. Kṛṣṇa: So we can arrange a bus and take some . . . Krishna Modi: You will arrange for bus? Prabhupāda: Let them go. They have got their cars. Krishna Modi: They have their car also, and they have got this Taj and all these trains. Why you arrange? Let them spend. Prabhupāda: I wanted to work in India by spreading sankīrtana, provided I get little cooperation of the government. Krishna Modi: That we will talk. That we will talk. Prabhupāda: One cooperation is that we can bring immediately a small vans or buses so that we can go village to village, town to town. If I get government funding, then . . . because here, the buses are very costly, and at the same time they are not very good. But foreign buses . . . India hasn't got to pay anything, but simply let us have and work in India. This much facility wanted. Besides that, our men, they are coming, spending ten thousand rupees, and after three months or six months, "Get out, get out, get out." And Indians are not joining. Indians are not so sacrificing. But these boys, they have sacrificed everything. I am sure if some cooperation is coming from the government I can very soon change the face of India. But I am not getting any facilities. We have experimented in Bengal, and here also, he is also going, saṅkīrtana party. But he could not do it in a large scale for want of facilities. And in foreign countries these boys are so sacrificing spirit, as soon as we give him some program, immediately they make arrangement. Immediately. We are going village to village with books in buses. Hundreds of buses are working. Krishna Modi: In America. *Prabhupāda: In America, in Europe. They have got facilities, full facilities. And the government appreciates. Some of the governments, they have given public holiday of the Ratha*-yātrā. *Paramahaṁsa: This is from the Mayor of San Francisco proclaiming that Ratha*-yātrā is a public holiday. Krishna Modi: In America. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Yes, fifty thousand people come every year. Prabhupāda: And this time, New York, the government, the police, they appreciated that this kind of dancing, it is not artificial. So here is life. They appreciated. What the American boys have got to dance for Kṛṣṇa unless it is from the heart? They are not dancing dogs, that I have trained them and they are dancing. Paramahaṁsa: This is the temple in New York. Prabhupāda: So there are so many things to be done in India, but I am, without getting any cooperation, I am getting opposition. Krishna Modi: Correct. Now let us . . . we must be active. We must be active. Prabhupāda: It will be good for the country, for the whole nation. Krishna Modi: And we will come Vṛndāvana also. Prabhupāda: Please come. I am there for three weeks. Krishna Modi: How many rupees per day for three days? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a thirty*-room guest house in Vṛndāvana. Krishna Modi: Thirty room! Paramahaṁsa: You bring eighty persons with you, make nice arrangements. Prabhupāda: If you want sir, that is charge. We charge. Krishna Modi: That is . . . you must charge it. Lokanātha: Our charges are very nominal. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A donation to the temple. Krishna Modi: That is perfectly correct. You must charge. If your members will get free. Lokanātha: Yes. Each room has a fan, bath . . . Prabhupāda: It is . . . (indistinct) Krishna Modi: That is perfect. *Prabhupāda: I think air*-conditioned? No. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Some rooms are air*-conditioned, two or three . . . Prabhupāda: As far as your Governor Reddy, he went. He stayed there two days. He has certified . . . he sent me a recent letter, you'll be surprised. Ask Harikeśa to bring that letter, latest letter from Channerjee. Krishna Modi: No, I have seen that. I have seen that. Prabhupāda: Latest? Krishna Modi: Latest. Also I heard that this Channa Reddy, Governor of the U.P. I have seen. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's one of our gurukula children. Prabhupāda: Let us cooperate. You'll see how I can change the face of India. Krishna Modi: Let us have now . . . let us train some members also. *Prabhupāda: And this is the only platform where real United Nation can be made. That is practical. That is practical. That United Nation has failed. If this Indian culture . . . I have given this philosophy to the American students: andha*-paṅgu-nyāya. That a lame man and a blind man, separately, both of them are useless. But when they combine together, the lame man is taken on the shoulder of the blind man, and the lame man has got eyes but he has no legs. He gives direction and the blind man goes. So the . . . at the present moment I am trying to spread this movement all over the world. But we have no means. So let America supply the money, and let them take our direction for the culture. That will be United Nation. And actually it will become. How they are dancing, black, white, Indian, American, European, in Ratha-yātrā? There is no politics. It is out of really spiritual ecstasy. Krishna Modi: Ah, what is politics? It's a perfectly religious movement. *Prabhupāda: So this is the real platform of United Nation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu . Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu (BG 18.54). At that time samaḥ sarveṣu . Na śocati na kāṅkṣati . They have no demand. These boys, they are working so hard. They never ask a single paisa from me. It is not possible for me to pay these foreigners as salaried man. That is not possible. They get minimum four thousand rupees, minimum. Minimum salary, America, is $400 dollars. That means four thousand rupees. So . . . and they are getting $800, $1200, $2000. And poverty is unknown in America. They do not know what is poverty. I see here the milk, they are standing in block. You can get as much milk as you want anywhere you go, any shop you go, you take immediately. Anything. Building materials—you simply order to the suppliers, immediately everything is there. Krishna Modi: Ah, but here there are so many difficulties. Prabhupāda: Here simply difficulties. In comparison to other countries, I have seen that it is simply difficulty. Frankly speaking. And to speak more frankly, why there is Emergency? Emergency means bad government. Otherwise, there is no necessity of Emergency. Emergency proves the government is not going nice. Is it not? Why Emergency? If it is normally going on nicely, then where is the question of Emergency? Krishna Modi: Emergency means that is something unnormal. Prabhupāda: Yes. If it is normal, there is no question of Emergency. That is the proof. Another thing, personally, from the Vedic point of view, I don't think India is ready to take actually democracy. Mass of people, they do not care for politics. You have better experience. There, in other countries, even a small man, he has got political sense. Krishna Modi: Ah, but they are educated. Prabhupāda: But here, mass of people, they do not know what is politics. One gentleman, he was my friend, it is in 1952 or '53, Mr. Datt. He was a statistics man. So he was going in the villages to take some statistics. He said to me, "In the village, they ask me, 'Bābujī, (in Bengali asking "When will the English return?"). So, log janta hi nahi kya ho raha hai. (people don't know what is going on.) The mass of people, they're for foreigners' rule, "Come and rule over us." Because the mass of people they have no sense of politics. "Anyone may come, and let them rule, we don't mind. Whatever little tax you want, you take, that's all right." The mass of people is like that. They are not concerned in politics. Under the circumstances, a democracy is not suitable for India. Long ago that Lord Curzon, he suggested this, that in India, monarchy is better. He suggested that some of the rāj family members should become King of India. It will be welcome. And our country, all along this monarchy was there. Democracy is idea now, but the monarch up to Parīkṣit Mahārāja, they were ideal, rājarṣi . People have so much faith in the monarch that whatever he does, it is right. Naradeva. Of course, nowadays things have changed. Krishna Modi: There is no difference. In the name of democracy this is the same thing. That's all. Prabhupāda: No, democracy means the people must have political sense. Then democracy is there. If the people have no political sense, artificially they are giving vote, that democracy . . . anyway, we are not political men, but so far whatever it may be, to change the present situation, I am confident if this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is taken seriously in India there will be very, very good change. That is absolute. So we can take up this work provided there is little cooperation from the government. Krishna Modi: Correct. So I will come to Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Jaya . (end) Conversation -- September 1, 1976, Delhi *Prabhupāda: . . . required to kill somebody, he'll do that—if it is required for his sense gratification. There are many instances that a woman is addicted to another man, and she has killed her husband, killed her son. Why? Sense gratification. I have seen one woman, my Godbrother's wife, she killed her son for being implicated with another man. I have seen it. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma ( SB 5.5.4). Things which are not to be done, they do it. Why? For the matter of sense gratification. They do it. That's a fact. So therefore simply for sense gratification they are prepared to do anything. That means pāpa . It is the verdict of the court that when a man kills another man he becomes mad. Without becoming mad, a man cannot kill another man. So everything is being done which is not sanctioned because for sense gratification. The whole world business is sense gratification. And at the end, when he's little spiritually inclined, he wants to satisfy senses by thinking artificially that "I shall become God." That is the greatest sense gratification. Because remaining a small living entity I have been hampered in my sense gratification. Now let me become God so that there will be no restriction of my sense gratification. Bhagavān . . . (indistinct) . . . because he has failed to satisfy his senses remaining non*-Bhagavān, now he wants to become Bhagavān. Yogī , that is also another sense gratification, that if I show some magic, if I can create little gold like this, hundreds and thousands of men will be after me and I shall live very nicely, just gratify my senses. These things are going on practically. The man who is manufacturing gold, and so many rich people are coming to his disciples and he's begging for a motorcar. If he can create gold, why he cannot create a motorcar? This is going on. Wo English me bol raha tha. (He was talking in English.) (break) Prabhupāda: Kya apka praśna hai? Apka praśna kya hai? (Do you have any question? What is your question?) Indian man: Baat ye hai guruji ki ek mene do teen saal pehle kisiko 5000 rupaya loan diya tha, aur usne kaha tha ki 4-5 din me vapas kar dega lekin abhi tak vapas nahi kiya. (The thing is Guruji, 2-3 years back I had given someone a loan of 5,000 rupees, and he had said that he would return it in 4-5 days but he hasn't returned it yet.) Prabhupāda: Kaun 5000 liya tha? (Who had taken 5,000 from you?) Indian man: Mera ek dost hai uska printing press hai. (I have a friend who runs a printing press.) Prabhupāda: Kam kya karta hai? (What work does he do?) Indian man: Printing ka kam karta hai wo. (He does the job of printing.) . . . (indistinct background conversation) . . . Prabhupāda: Us praśna ko hamare pas lane se kya faida? Nahi to . . . hum kya kare? (So what is the use of getting that question to us? What can we do?) Indian man: Nahi humne bahut koshish ki, aap sahi tarika boliye kaise usko . . . (No I tried a lot, if you could tell me what is the right way to . . . ) Prabhupāda: Hum uska tarika batayen, ye koi praśna hai? . . . Ye sab chalta hai, "hum 5000 rupaya mangte hain, aap dila dijiye to aap bada saheb ho jayiye". Ab agar wo 5000 rupaya humko milta hi nahin, aap kuch mantra laga kar usko dila dijiye tab hum manenge apko bada saheb aur nahin to nahi . . . Sadhu ka ye kam hai ki jo deta nahi usko dila de, bada saheb, mantra padke. Ye koi praśna hai sadhu ke liye. Ye sab chal raha hai. (We should say the solution, is that a question? These things are going on "I am asking for 5,000 rupees, you help me get it then you will become a big Sir". Now if I don't get that 5,000 rupees, you please do some magic and get it for me, then I shall consider you a big man, otherwise not. This is the work of a sage, who hasn't got anything, to give him something . . . Big Sir . . ., by reading some mantras. Is this a question which should be asked to a Sage? All these things are going on.) (Devotees chanting 'Hari Hari') Ye Sadhu ke pas jata hai aur: Māhārāj hamara pet me dard hai, aur sadhu usko koi dawai dega aur bada saheb. (They go to the Sage and tell him: Māhārāj I have pain in the stomach, and the sage gives him some medicine, then he would become a 'Big Sir'.) *Indian man (2): Ye adalat ka kam hai. Sadhu*-santon ke pas bhagvan ka poocho, bhagvan ke bhakti ka poocho, bhagvan ke kuch smabandh ki baat karo, ye sab maya ke bat nahi. (These works are meant for the court. When you come to a Sage you must enquire about God, about devotion to God, topics related to God, and not topics related to maya.) Indian man: Nahi mujhe jab maya milegi me Kṛṣṇa ji ko daan kar dunga na (No when I get the money, I will donate it to Kṛṣṇa.) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa ko wo daan nahi chahiye. Ap usko bhul jaiye. (Kṛṣṇa doesn't want that money. You forget about it.) Indian man (2): Sab to wo deta hai, ap usko kya denge? (He provides for everything. What can we give to him?) Prabhupāda: Apko 5,000 rupaya dila den to ap Kṛṣṇa ko denge. Abhi apke pas do chaar paise jo hain wo dijiye. (If you get that 5,000 rupees you will donate it to Kṛṣṇa. But whatever little amount you have now, you donate that first.) Indian man: Sirf yahi dukh hain mujhe aur sab . . . (This is the only sadness I have, remaining everything . . .) Indian man (2): To usko dena hoga de diya, jab lena hai to kabhi mil jayega. (This was your time to give, so you gave. When it's your time to get, then you will get it.) . . . (indistinct conversation) . . . *Prabhupāda: Sadhu kisko bataya jata hai? Bhagvan kisko sadhu bataya hai? To 'api cet su*-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ' (BG 9.30) jo bhagvat bhajan karta hai, 'ananya bhak' se wo sadhu hai. Wo māhātamā bada durlabh hai jo ki Vāsudev bhagwan ko hi sab kuch manta hai . . . 'bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ' (BG 7.19) Ye sab kaun māhātamā hai, kaun sahdhu hai iske vishay me bhagvan khud bata diya hai. Wo 'bhajate mām ananya-bhāk' wo sadhu hai. Unke pas Bhagvat bhajan karne ke liye puch sakte hain, rupaya kaise milega uske liye to aur sab . . . ye sab ajkal yahi chalta hai. (break) Sadhu ke pas, kis tarah se tapasya karni padti hai . . . kaise Bhagwan ka sanidhya labh ho sakega usko puchna chahiye. (Who is called as a Sage? Who has God declared as a sage? So api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ (BG 9.30) one who sings the glories of the Lord without deviation "Ananya bhak" he is a sage. That being is very rare who considers only Lord Vasudeva to be everything . . . bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19) These things like: 'Who is a Saint', 'Who is a Sage', the Lord himself has explained about these things. That one who is engagegd in devotional service without any deviation "bhajate mām ananya-bhāk" is a Sage. You can ask him about how to sing glories of the Lord. For things related to how to get money and all there are other . . . these things are all going on today. (break) How to perform austerities, how to get the association of supreme Lord, these things should be asked to a Sage.) Indian man: . . . Prabhuji ek baat hai, Bhagvan ki itni seva ki hai . . . aur main prarthana karta hoon ki mujhe aise ashirwad chahiye ki me bhagwan ko kabhi bhulun na aur jo kaam me karun unke liye karun. . . yehi mai aapse aashirvad mangta hoon. Aur kabhi gande kaam me mera dyan na jaye, sachai bolun. . . (. . . Prabhuji there is one thing, I have rendered so much service to the Lord. . . I worship God that I want this blessing: I should never forget God and whatever work I do, I should do it for him . . . also this is the blessing I seek from you. Also, my mind should never be engaged in any dirty works, I should always speak the truth . . .) Prabhupāda: Bhagvan apko aashirvad kare. (May the Lord bless you.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Devotees chanting 'Jay Prabhupāda')'kirtaniya sada Hari' 'satatam kirtayanto' Sab samay kirtan karo. Kam karo aur Hare Kṛṣṇa bolne me kya nuksan hai. (All the time sing the names of God. Do your work but what is the loss in saying Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda: Karo to sahi, shuru to karo. Bhagwan bole 'satatam kirtayanto' sab samay bhagwan ka kirtan karo aur sab samay nahi hota hai to jahan tak hota hai karo, lekin karo. (break) Kirtan karo baith ke. (Do it, start at least . The Lord said: 'satatam kirtayanto' all time sing the glories of the Lord. And if it's not possible to do all time, then do as much as you can, but start doing. (break) Sit down and do kirtana .) Indian lady: . . . (indistinct) . . . *Prabhupāda: Krodh, jaise Hanumān ji kiya tha. Jaise Hanuman ji wo Rāvan ka ghar jala diya. Bina krodh se koi kisika ghar jala sakta hai? To krodh ka aise vyavahar karo. To Rāvan ka ghar kyun jalaya? Ye bewakoof Sitā ji ko le aaya, badmash, uska ghar jala diya. Krodh . . . jo rakshas hai, bhagvan ka abhakt hai uske upar khub krodh karo. (Anger, like Hanumān ji had displayed? Like Hanumān ji had burnt down the house of Rāvana. Can anyone burn down a house without anger? So you should utilize anger in this way. So why did he burn down Rāvana's palace? This foolish rogue man kidnapped Sitā, so he burnt down his house. Whoever is demoniac, non*-devotee, you should be very angry on them.) Indian lady: Kabhi kabhi bahut jyada krodh ata hai. (I get very angry sometimes.) Prabhupāda: Bahut karo, jab ghar jala diya to baki kya reh hai . . . Abhi krodh kitna ho sakta hai? Utna krodh kahan ayega? Ap kisika ghar jala sakti ho? Hanumān ji ne kiya tha isliye Hanumān ji ka aj tak puja karte hain, kyunki krodh kiya tha. Bichare vendanta ko nahi padha tha, padhe to jane Krodh kiya lekin Rām ke liye, apne liye nahi kiya. Krodha ka vyavahr hai bhagwan ke liye. Jo Bhagvan ko maanta nahi aur bhakt ko takalif deta hai, uske upar khub krodh kijiye, ghar jala dijiye. Krodh ka bhi vyavahr hai, krodh hai to krodh dikhao kahan tak hai krodh. (Do more, When he burnt a house, what more is left . . . Now how much high can anger be? Where would you get that much anger? Can you burn down somebody's house? Hanumān ji did it that's why till today he is being worshipped, because he became angry. Poor guys, they dont read the scriptures, if they read they will get to know that he displayed anger but only for Rāma, not for himself. The use of anger is done for Lord's service. The one who does not believe in God, and gives trouble to devotees, you should be very angry with them, you should burn down their houses. There is proper use of anger as well. If you have anger then display that anger.) Indian lady: Krodh me to anisht bhi hota hai. (In anger, we perform forbidden things sometimes.) *Prabhupāda: Anisht hoye chod tum bhagvan ke liye karo. Hum bolta hai agar tumhare pas krodh hai to usko . . . ye krodh bhagvan ke liye vyavahar karo. Jaise Hanumān ji kiya tha. Hai to Māhājan hai 'Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ' (CC Madhya 17.186) Bade*-bade Māhājan bhakt log jaise kaam kiya hai . . . wo Hanumān ji ke pas krodh tha tabhi to wo kiya, to apke pas krodh hai ap bhi wese kijiye. Is prakar apka krodh jab vyavahar hojayega fir apko shanti milegi. (Leave about the forbidden things, you did it for the Lord. I am saying if you have anger . . . use that anger for the service of Lord. Just like Hanumān did it. He is a self-realized predecessor Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) Whatever is done by big big self realized predecessors, devotees . . . Hanumān ji had anger that's why he did it, so if you have anger you also utilize in the same way. In this way when you utilize your anger then you will find peace.) Indian man (2): . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda:' Kya puch raha hai? ( What is he asking?) Indian man: Kehta hai Bhagvan ka naam kis tarah liya jata hai mujhe batao. (He wants to know how to chant the name of the Lord.) *Prabhupāda: Kis tarah se leta hai dekhta nahi hai ap, phir kaise batayega apka jab ankh nahi hai. Ye sab kaise leta hai, din bhar kirtan karta hai. Ye koi mushkil hai kya? Dekho wo jaise karta hai waise karo, usme kya hai seekhna? Ye to baccha bhi kar lega. Us din baccha kirtan kiya na, usme seekhne ka kya hai? Jo dekhe usiko karo. Aaiye, han, aiiye. Dekh ke sikhna hota hai, jaise kaunsa bhi sevak hai . . . Hanumān ji se jake seekho . . . Jo dekh ke sikhta hai wo bada chalak hai. Ek aadmi ko zabardasti aise karo*-waise karo bolne se sikhta hai to usko der lagta hai aur jo dekh ke sikhta hai jaldi seekh jata hai, wo bada chatur hai. Adarsh . . . adarsh sab cheez ka hai, wo adarsh hum le aaye, yehi humlog ka pantha hai 'Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ' (CC Madhya 17.186). Bade-bade bhakt log jaise rasta dikhaye hain usko anusaran karo sab seekh jaoge. Tarko ’pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā (CC Madhya 17.186) Ye tark karke seekhna, wo tark karenge, hum unse jyada tark karenge, koi aur humse zyada tark karega, usse koi labh nahi hai. Aur yadi ved vedanta padhenge to hum dekhenge ved me kuch aur likha hai aur doosre ved me aur kuch likha hai aur darshnik vichar karenge 'Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam'(CC Madhya 17.186) aur ye muni ko daba nahi sakta hai to uska jo philosophy hai wo bhi thik nahi hai aise bata denge. (Aren't you seeing how they are chanting, then how can I explain if you don't have the eyes. How do they chant, they chant the whole day. Is it difficult? See how they are doing, you do like them, what is there to learn in this? Even a child can do this. That day the children chanted, what is there to learn? Whatever you have seen, you should do that. Come, please come. You must see by seeing, just as we have the devotees, go and learn from Hanumān ji . . . one who learns by seeing is very clever. If one forcibly keeps telling you to do like this, like that, then it takes time to learn but one who sees and learns, he learns quickly, he is very intelligent. Everything has got certain principles that we have brought. This is our belief system. Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) Whatever path the great devotees have shown ,just follow it and you will learn everything. Tarko ’pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā (CC Madhya 17.186)) Learning by giving arguments, he will give some argument, we will then try to add some more argument, and somebody else will give more argument than us, there is no benefit from these arguments. And if we study the vedanta then we know something else is written in the 'vedas', and in some other 'veda' there is some other thing which is written then we try to think philosophically. Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (CC Madhya 17.186) and if they can't suppress the saint, then whatever philosophy he has given, they just mark it as incorrect. *'Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ'(CC Madhya 17.186) isiliye jo dharma vastu hai uska tattva bada gambhir hai. To kis tarah se sikha jaye? 'Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ'(CC Madhya 17.186) Bade*-bade Māhājan jis tarah se rasta dikhaye hain usko follow karo. Hamare vedic niyam se sab māhān acharya hain, jaise aaj kal pehle Sri sampradaya, Rudra sampradaya, Brahma sampradaya, Kumar sampradaya, to shastra me sab bataya hai kaun-kaun mahajan hain: 'Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ prahlādo janako bhīṣmo balir vaiyāsakir vayam (ŚB 6.3.20) ye sab Māhājan hain. Naradji hain, Brahmaji hain, Mahadev Shivji hain, aur Kapil hain, Manu hain, Prahlād maharaj hain, Janak māhārāj hain, Bhishmadev hain, dwadash māhājan shastra me bataya gaya hai, wo log jaise jaise kaam kiya hai us tarah se hum log anusaran karen aur unko jo adarsh hai usko follow karen. ( Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ (CC Madhya 17.186) Therefore the matters related to dharma is very deep. So how should we learn it? Māhājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186) We should follow the path shown by the great self realized personalities. In our Vedic culture we have very great teachers as nowadays the Sri sampradaya, Rudra sampradaya, Brahma sampradaya, Kumar sampradaya. So all this is mentioned in the scriptures, who are the great personalities, Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ prahlādo janako bhīṣmo balir vaiyāsakir vayam (ŚB 6.3.20) these are the great personalities. We have Narad ji, Brahma ji, Mahadev Shiv ji, Kapila muni, Manu, Prahlād Māhārāj, Janak Māhārāj, Bhismadeva, these 12 great personalities are mentioned in the scriptures. We should follow the work they have done and follow their ideals.) Thank you. *Indian lady: . . .(indistinct) . . . Kalyug me kirtan se uddhar ho sakta hai. Bhagwan Kṛṣṇa Gita me kehte hain ki sthita*-pragya ke liye dhyan yoga. . . (. . . In Kali yuga by chanting the Lord's name one can be elevated. Lord Kṛṣṇa has said in the Gitā that for a person to be equipoised . . .) *Prabhupāda: Wo sthita*-pragya ho jayega Rām-naam karo. Bhagvan ka naam karo, bhagvan ka smaran karo. Rām ka naam liya to Rām ka to dhyan ho jayega. Dhanurdhari Rām, Sitāji baithe hain, Hanumān ji baithe hain, Lakshman ji hain, ye sab dhyan hogaya. Kya mushkil hai. Kisi ka naam lene se uska sab kaam dhyan me aata hai ki nahin, usi prakar aap yadi Rām ka naam lenge to sath sath Rām ka dhyan bhi ho jayega (verse). Yadi aap dhyanavastit hokar ke bhagvan ko dhyan karenge to fir yogi hogaye. Aur pehle se thik thak kar liya ki Rām ka haat nahi hai, pair nahi hai, naak nahi hai, aankh nahi hai, to kis par dhyan karnege. To keval klesh hoga. (verse) Bhgavan ka dhyan kijiye, Bhagvan ka naam lijiye, jo hogaya sawar lijiye. Shastra me bataya hai (verse). Dhyan ka, meditation ka arth kya hota hai. Jo man ko sab samay bhagvan ke charan me laga deta hai ye samadhi hai. (Chant the names of the Lord and you will become equipoised. Take the names of the Lord, remember Him. If you chant the names of Lord Rāma then automatically meditation happens on Lord Lord Rāma. Lord Rāma with bow and arrow, Sitā seated next to Him, Hanumān ji is also sitting and Lakshman is there, all this is meditation. What is the difficulty? When you take a person's name, all his activities will come to your mind or not. Similarly if you take Lord Rāma's name then automatically you will meditate on the Lord. (verse). If you meditate with single minded devotion towards to Lord then you will become a yogi. And beforehand if you fix that Lord Rāma does not have hands, does not have legs, does not either eyes or ears then what will you meditate on. Then there will be only tribulation. (verse). Meditate on the Lord, take the names of the Lord, fix everything. In the scriptures it is said (verse). What is the meaning of meditation? One who focuses his mind all the time on the lotus feet of the Lord, that is trance.) *Indian man: Bhagvan ki siddhi aur moksh prapt karne ke raste ek hi hai ya alag*-alag? (Are the ways of obtaining mystic powers and liberation one and the same?) Prabhupāda: Moksh ka arth aap kya samjhte hain? (What do you understand the meaning of liberation?) Indian man: Shakti, jaise shakt log hain shakti ko prapt karte hain. (Power, like how we have the 'shakta's' who aquire the power.) *Prabhupāda: Shakti me moksh nahi hai. Shakti, ye material power . . . (indistinct) . . . usme moksh nahi hai. Material power usko shakti 'dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpa*-pati-bhājaṁ dehi' lo usko aur phas jao. Ye sab duniya me jo power chahte hain wo phas jate hain ki nahin, ye aapko maloom hai ki nahin. To duniya ka shakti labh hone se, aap phas jaiyega yahi labhi hoga. Wo to moksh nahi hai, wo to phasne wala baat hai. Shakti ye nimn star ka vyajan hai, ye duniya ka power chahte hain, jo shakti upasak hai. Ye shakti analysis karke dekhte hai aag me shakti jyada hai to agni upasak ho jate hain. Aur fir jo aag pe analysis karke dekhta hai, jo aag jo aata hai wo surya ke agni se aata hai, to surya ka upasak hai. Ye shakto. Isi tarah shakt aur kya nam hai danapatta, aur souryo . . . ye sab panch upasana hai . . . (indistinct) . . . It is gradual state. To asal me vishnu upasana hi mukhya hai. (verse) to jitna upasana hai wo sab karte-karte jab usko theek chiz maloom hoga 'ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param' (Padma Purāṇa). To sadharan vyakti nahi jante hain (verse) to sartha gatim kya hai jante nahi he isliye kabhi shakti me phas jate hain, kabhi agni me fas jate hain, pancha-upasak. Aur swayam Vishnu aa karke bata rahe hain tum ye sab chodo 'sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ' (BG 16.66) usme tumhara sab labh hai. (verse) Aur jisko Bhagwan ka krpa labh ho gaya wo aur kisika kripa nahi chahte hain. (There is no lieration in power. 'Shakti', this is material power . . . there is no liberation in that. Acquiring material power 'dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpa-pati-bhājaṁ dehi' and getting more entangled. All the people in the world who want power, don't they get trapped, do you know this or not? So if you get the material power, you will get entangled more and that's the only benefit. That is not liberation, that is entanglement. Power is a low form of energy, whoever are the worshippers of power, they want power of this world. The analyze this power and see, there is power in the fire, so they become worshippers of fire. Now they analyze the fire and they find out this fire actually comes from Sun's heat , then they become worshippers of the Sun. Like this there are 'Shakta's' , 'Shouryo' . . . there are five types of worshippers . . . (indistinct) . . . It is gradual state. So in reality, worship of Lord Vishnu is the most important. So out of all the different kinds of worship, after doing everything when he realizes the correct thing 'ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param' (Padma Purāṇa). So normal people do not know this, and they sometimes get stuck in power, or fire . . . they get stuck in the worship of these five types. And Lord Vishnu himself comes and tells, you leave all this sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (BG 16.66, your benefit is in that.) And whoever has received the blessings of the lord, they don't need blessings from anyone else. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) . . . Ishwar darshan, bhagvan darshan kya hai? (What does the darshan of God mean?) Prabhupāda: Pehle to aapko ye nischit karna chahiye ki kiska darshan chahte hain. Abhi to bataya na shakti, daanpatra, souryo anek prakar upasana hai. Aapko kya chahiye tab bataya jayega kis tarah se upasana karne se labh milega. (First you must decide whose darshan you want to have. Just now I mentioned 'Shakta' , 'Shouryo', there are different kinds of worship. Which one you want, then we can say how to perform the worship to get the benefit.) First of all you must fix up what you want. Indian man (1): What is realization? Prabhupāda: Realization—everything is realization. If you can do business well, that is also realization. Indian man (1): Realization of God. Prabhupāda: Then you, if you want . . . Indian man (1): Realization of God. Prabhupāda: Realization of God, To wo to Bhagwan bata rahe hain (So Lord is saying), bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). So "If you want to know Me, then bhaktyā , bhakti ." Ye to bataye nahi gyan se, karma se, yog se humko mil sakte hain, nahi. (It is not said that you will obtain God by knowledge, by duty, by yoga , no.) Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ . If you want to know God really, then you have to take this path, bhakti . If you want something else, that is a different thing. *Pehle to aapko fix*-up hona chahiye ki aapko chahiye kya. (First you have to decide what it is that you want.) Indian man: Aur Prabhupāda, ye sākār aur nirākār me kaafi matbhed chalta hai. Sākār samne pratyaksh murti rakne se, hriday me dhyan ekatrit karke aur kendrit karke hum puja kar sakte hain, bhakti kar sakte hain, lekin nirākār me dhyan nahi jamta hai. To apka iske bare me kya vichar hai aur . . . (And Prabhupāda, there is a lot of difference of opinion in the form and formless formless feature of the Lord. In the form, we can keep the Deity in front of us, meditate in our mind and worship the Deity and do devotion but in formless we cannot meditate. So what is your view on this and . . .) Prabhupāda: Ye nirākār ka arth pehle samajhiye. Nirākār aakār ko nakharch kar dena, Nirākār - aakar hai baki usko nakharch karke . . . (indistinct) . . . To bhagvan jo hai wo dekhta hai baki uska aankh nahi hai. Aise ye sab vichar, to ab sochna chahihye ki aankh nahi hai to dekhta kaise hai, ye vichar karna hai (verse). Ye achaksur jo hai nirākār hai aur pashyati jo hai wo aakār. (Try to understand the meaning of the word formless first. Formless means to break the form, form is there but . . . (indistinct) . . . We say the Lord is seeing everything but he doesn't have eyes. These thoughts are going on, now one should contemplate if there are no eyes then how is he seeing, you should think about this. (verse) This 'achaksur' is formless and 'pashyati' is form.) *Isliye aapko nischay karna chahiye ki bhagvan dekhta hai, baki wo unka hamara jaisa aankh nahi hai, ye nirākār hai. Hum jaise dekh rahe hain, ye kamre ke bhitar sab dekh rahe hain aur diwar ke udhar kya hai dekh nahi sakte. Aur jo bhagvan hai wo sab dekhta hai (verse) sab jagah unka haat hai , pair hai. Isliye vichar karna chahiye ki bhagvan ka haat, pair sabhi hai baki hamare jaise nahin hai. Ye vichar karna chahiye. Jo ye hamara jaise hai hi nahi wo nirākār hai aur unka jo haat*-pair hai wo aakār. Isliye shastra me bataya hai 'ISVARA PARAMA KRISHNA SACHIDANANDA VIGRAHA ANADIR AADIR GOVINDA SARVA KARANA KARANAM'. Unka jo vigrah hai, aakār hai wo sacidanand hai, sac-cit-anand. To jahan sacidanand kaha gaya hai ye jo sharir hai ye nirākār hai, kyunki ye jo sharir hai ye sat nahi hai, asat, (verse). Ye sharir to naash ho jayega. Bhagvan ka sharir hai baki maas-mans sharir nahi hai. Isliye bhagvan kehte hain mai jab aata hoon to ye moorkh log samjhte hai ki sadharan manushya jaisa hai 'avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā' mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam' (BG 9.11). (Therefore first you should decide that God can see, but he does not have eyes like us, this is formless. Like how we are able to see what is inside this room but what is there behind the wall we can't see. But the Lord can see everything, (verse). He has his hands and legs everywhere. So we must think that His hands and legs are there but not like ours. So this must be considered. So the one which is not like us, is formless and the hands and legs which the Lord has is the form. Hence it is said in the scriptures that ISVARA PARAMA KRISHNA SACHIDANANDA VIGRAHA ANADIR AADIR GOVINDA SARVA KARANA KARANAM Lord's deity, the form , is sac-cit-ananda , full of eternity, knowledge and bliss. So where it is said eternity, knowledge and bliss, but this body of ours is not eternal, it is temporary (verse) This body will perish. God's form is there but not made of flesh and bones. So God says, when I descend these rascals think that I am an ordinary person like them Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā' mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11)) *Kyunki ye do haat*-payr leke main aaya hoon to moorkh log samjhte hai ki hamara jaise koi vyakti hai baki wo sachidananda vigrah hai. 'sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā' (BG 4.6) ye sab vachan hai Bhagavad-Gita me. Bhagvan ka jo sharir hai wo hamara jaisa sharir nahi hai 'janma karma ca me divyam' (BG 4.9). To bhagvan ka sharir kya hai usko agar samajh jaye to wo . . . baki wo samajhta nahi hai, wo samajhta hai hamara jaisa vyakti hai aur unko ye mayavadi log kehte hai jab bhagvan aate hai to maya ka sharir dharan karke aate hain. To nirākār ka artha hota hai bhagvan ka bhautik sharir nahi hai. Bhagvan ka sharir hai sac-cit-anand vigraha. Agar sacidanand vigraha nahi hota to 7 varsh ke umar me koi pahad utha sakta hai, boliye. (Just because I have appeared with 2 hands and legs, these rascals think that He is a person like us, but he is sac-cit-ananda vigraha sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6). All these statements are given in the Bhagavad-gita . The form of God is not like ours. janma karma ca me divyam (BG 4.9) So if one understands the form of God then . . . but he does not understand and thinks the Lord is like one of us, and to this the impersonalists say that whenever God appears He comes with this maya form. So the meaning of formless is that God does not have a material form like us. God's form is full of eternity, knowledge and bliss. If His form was not eternal, full of knowledge and bliss then how could a 7 year old lift such a big mountain on a little finger, tell me.) Indian man: Mera matlab ye tha prabhuji ki jab hum puja karte hain baithte hain agar samne murti hoti hai Bhagwan ki sākār murti ho ya chitra ho, to us par dhyan jaldi aakarshit hota hai, kendrit hota hai. Lekin agar hum bina murti ke dhyan karne baithe nirākār ka, to wo dhyan kendrit ho nahi pata hai. To kya koi jariya hai sākār ke dwara nirākār pahuchne ka? (I meant to say this Prabhuji that if we sit in front of the Deity or a photo of God to worship Him, then our mind gets drawn to the Deity very quickly. But if we sit meditating on the formless, then it's very difficult to focus and meditate. So is there any way to achieve the formless through the form?) *Prabhupāda: Nirākār kyun pahunchega, nirākār pahuchna nahi hai. Wo aap jante nahi je bhagvan ka aakār kya hai. Wo agyan ko door kijiye. Bhagvan to nirākār hai hi nahi, sachidanand vigraha. Vigraha ka arth hota hai murti. To fir bhagvan ke murti ko aap nirakar karne kyun chahte hain. Aur jo nirākār karne ko chahte hai usko 'kleśo ’dhika*-taras teṣām' (BG 12.5) usko adhik klesh hota hai, aur kuch nahi milta hai. (Why would he reach the formless, he doesn not have to reach the formless. You don't know that the Lord has a form. Remove this ignorance first. God is not formless, He is sac-cid-ananda . The meaning of 'Vigraha' is Deity. Why do you want to make God's Deity formless? And one who wants to make Him formless, he suffers a lot, kleśo ’dhika-taras teṣām (BG 12.5) he does not get anything.) Find out this verse. Indian man: Aisa shastron me bataya gaya hai kali kaal me . . .(indistinct) . . . (It is mentioned in the scriptures that in this 'Kali yuga' . . .) (break) Prabhupāda: Pehle samjhiye Bhagvan nirākār nahi hai. Bhagvan ka aakār hai baki . . . (First of all understand that God is not formless. God has a form . . .) Somebody . . . why don't you send? What they are doing, all these rascals, that they cannot read? Devotee: Someone should come in? Prabhupāda: Yes. But they do not know that somebody should remain there. Why they are there? What they are doing there? Hari-śauri: Harikeśa is typing. Pradyumna is reading Sanskrit books. *Prabhupāda: Just see. Send Pradyumna immediately. Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām avyaktasakta*-cetasam. Kleśa . Beginning with kleśa . (devotees tries to find verse) You could not? Kleśa . K-l-e-s . Why don't you come here? And who will find out? Come here. Devotee: Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām ? *Prabhupāda: Why do you say that you do not find? Find out. They are not accustomed. Kleśo'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta*-cetasām (BG 12.5). Ye bhagvan swayam bata diya, jo nirākār bhajan karne wala hai uska kewal klesh adhik hota hai. To apko klesh hua to wo to hoga hi. Ye to shastra me bata diya. Apko sukh kaise hoga. Jab shastra batata hai adhik klesha, jisko adhik klesh usko sukh kaise hoga. (The Lord himself has already said, one who worships the formless, for him only tribulation increases. So if you are having to suffer, then it was bound to happen. This is already told in the scriptures. How will you feel happiness? When the scripture says too much suffering, then how can one who is suffering get happiness.) (Pradyumna enters) Read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Ah. Avyaktā hi gatir duḥkham. Avyakta chintan karne kewal dukh labh hota hai aur kuch labh nahi Read it. (If you meditate on the unmanifested form then you get only sadness, nothing else.) Pradyumna: "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied." Prabhupāda: Yes. Wo rasta ko pakadne se apko klesh adhik hoga, Bhagvan khud bata rahe hain, to apko sukh kaise milega. (The Lord himself says, if you take that path then you have to suffer a lot. So how will you get happiness? You are expecting happiness by thinking of impersonal form of the Lord. That is not possible. You simply get troubles, that's all. Ye to aap buddhiman hain, bhagyavan hain, jiska apko anubhav hua hai. Aur jo moorkh hota hai usko klesh bhi hota hai aur wohi rasta me jata hai. Wo janta hai usme klesh hota hai phir usi me jata hai. Aisa moorkh hota hai. Apko to bhagvan kripa kiya. Koi chahte hain ki khushi se hum klesh uttaye, wo moorkh jati hai. Ye buddhiman klesh ke rasta me kyun jaye. Isme anand hota hai idhar Bhagvan ka murti hai, dekho kitna sundar sajaya hai, nach rahe hain, gaa rahe hain, isme anand hai. Nirākār kuch nahi hai. (You are intelligent, and fortunate that you are experiencing this. And one who is foolish suffers and still continues on the same path. He knows that the path is full of suffering but still goes on that path. Such foolishness. God has showered His mercy on you. No one wants to take suffering happily, such people are rascals. Why should the intelligent person go on the path of suffering? Is there happiness? Here we have God's Deity, see how nicely it is decorated, they are dancing, they are singing - this is happiness, bliss. There is no formlessness.) What is the purport? *Pradyumna: "The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jñāna*-yogis , and persons who are in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord, are called bhakti-yogis . Now here the difference between jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed." *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa personally says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). To aap agyan panth ka kyun lijiye. Yadi aap bhagvan ko janane ko chahte hain, bhagvan bata rahe hain 'bhaktya mam abhijanati' to aap agyan panth kyun lenge. Fir apko klesh hoga (verse) To jo . . . Bhagvan sab bata diya hai, do rasta hai (verse) jo abhakton me aasakt hain usko adhik klesh hota hai. (Why do you want to take the ignorant path? If you want to know God, then God himself is saying " bhaktya mam abhijanati " then why will you take the path of ignorance? Then you will have suffering (verse). So, the Lord has already mentioned, there are 2 ways (verse), the one who is attached to non*-devotees gets more suffering.) So If you like to tolerate adhik-kleśa , that is your choice. Otherwise, Bhagavān, sac-cid-ānanda . . . Srivigraha ka aaradhan kijiye, usko sajaiye, sabko khane ko dijiye, prasad paiye, kirtan kijiye, dance kijiye, dekhiye anand milega. To anand ka path chod karke aagar klesh ka path lijiyega to ye aapke kushi ke baat hai. (Worship the Deity, decorate it, Offer food to the deities , feed prasadam to everyone, you also honor prasadam , perform congregational chanting, dancing and you will get bliss. So if you discard the path of bliss and take the path of suffering, it is your choice.) You can accept any way. That is your choice. *Ye sab shastra me hai. (All this is given in the scriptures.) Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa vigraha. Sac-cid-ānanda vigraha (BS 5.1). *Nirākār kyon? Artificially wo vigraha bhagvan ko nirākār karne ko kyun chahte hain. Isme apko kya labh hoga. Isko jawab dijiye. Aap bahut accha sākār se nirākār jayenge. Jab bhagvan ka sacidananda vigraha mauzood hai aap wahan se phir, nirākār roop bhi unka hai, sabhi to wohi hai 'brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate' (SB 1.2.11). To bhagvan aakhir roop hai. To bhagvan ka roop chod karke . . . jaise Suryadev hai. Wo suryadev suryalok me hai aur unka sab chata . . . to Suryadev ka sharir ka prakash se ye sab prakash hai, to udhar se idhar aane ka jaroorat kya hai, idhar se udhar jaiye. Surya ka jo prakash hai, roudra dhoop hai, dhoop se aahiste*-aashiste suryalok me jaiye. Suryalok me jake suryadev ka darshan kariye, ye paddhati hai. Aap suryalok me gaya, suryadev ka darshan kiya, chalo fir dhoop me chalo, ye kaun sa vichar hai, boliye. Idhar se udhar jayenge na udhar se idhar aayenge. Jisko bhakti hai usko gyan yog hai. Jisko bhakti hai wo bina gyan bhakt kaise hoga. (Why formless? Why do they want to artificially make the Deity of God formless? What benefit do you get from it? Answer this. You will go very nicely from form to formless. When God's form of eternity, bliss and knowledge is there, He is also formless, He is everything. brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). So ultimately God has form. Then why do you forget His form? Like how we have Sun God. The Sun God is in the sun planet and all his rays, the sunshine from the sun's body illuminates everything. Then what is the need to come from there to here, instead go from here to there. The light of the sun, the heat - from the sunshine, he gradually enters into the sun planet. Enter into the sun's planet and have darshan of Sun God, this is the process. And he goes to the Sun planet, gets darshan of the Sun God and then again comes out in the sun, what's these kind of thoughts called, tell me. Will you go from here to there or come from there to here . . . one who has devotion, has got knowledge. One who has devotion, how will he become devotee without knowledge?) *Jab tak purna gyan usko nahi hota ki bhagvan ye hai 'bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ' (BG 7.19) jab tak apko purna gyan nahi hoga to bhagvan ko kaise samjhenge. Bhagvan ko samajhna kya sadharan baat hai 'manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ' (BG 7.3). To bhagvan ko samajhna aisa maamuli baat hai kya. Hazaron-karodo aadmi siddhi labh karne ke liye prayatna karte hain aur jo siddhi labh kiye hue hain usme abhi tak koi bhagvan ko janta nahi. Gyan purna ho jayega to bhagvan ko samajh jayenge. Jab bhagvan ko jante nahin, uske gyan ka kya mulya hai. Vo to agyan hai 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.15). Ved-vedanta ko padh kar bhi yadi bhagvan ko nahi samjha, to phir apke gyan ka kya fayda hua. (Until he has complete knowledge, that God is this: Unless you have complete knowledge, how will you understand God? Is it an ordinary thing to understand God? So is it such a simple thing to understand God? Thousands and crores of people are trying to obtain mystic powers and out of those who have got these powers, no one has understood God yet. When the knowledge is complete, then you will understand God. When you don't know God, what is the value of your knowledge? That is ignorance. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo (BG 15.15) Even after reading so many scriptures - the vedas , the vedanta —if one has not understood God, then what is the use of such knowledge?) Indian lady: . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhakti yog ke liye to prem ki jarurat hai. (To perform bhakti yog, we need love.) Prabhupāda: Sastra vachan dekhiye, ki jiska gyan nahi hai wo kya bhagwan ko samjhega. To isliye jo bhagwan ko samjha hai usko gyan jarur hai. Aur jo bhagwan ko samjha nahi uska gyan ka kya kimat. 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.14) Ved ka artha hota hai gyan to sab ved ka uddesya kya hai? Ki Bhagwan ko samarpan karna. Aur yadi wahan tak ap pahunche nahi Bhagwan kya chiz he nahi samjhte hain, to apko gyani kehne ka kya matlab hai, wo to agyani hai. Aisa to gyan, jo mistri hai usko bhi kuch gyan hai. Thoda bahut gyan sabhi ka hota hai. Gyan sabhi ko hota hai, bacha ko bhi hota hai. Jiv matr ko kuch na kuch gyan hota hai. Kuch Kuch gyan ka baat nahi he, purna gyan. Jo purna gyan hai wo Bhagwan ko samjehnge. Uska naam purna gyan. (See the statements of the scriptures, the one who doesn't have the knowledge, what will he understand God. So the one who has understood God, he definitely has knowledge. And the one who did not understand God, what is the value of his knowledge. 'Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo' (BG 15.14) The meaning of 'ved' is knowledge, so what is the purpose of all the scriptures? To surrender to the supreme Lord. And if you haven't reached there, and did not understand what is God then what is the meaning of calling you a 'Gyani', he is called as ignorant. Even a craftsman has some knowledge. Little bit knowledge is there with everyone. Even a child has some knowledge. Every being has some or the other knowledge. But we are not talking about little knowledge . . . complete knowledge. One who has complete knowledge can understand the Lord. That's known as complete knowledge. ) Indian lady: Prabhuji ahankār ko kis tarah mitaya jaye? (Prabhuji how to get rid of ego?) *Prabhupāda: To ahankār . . . jab tak ap samjhke baithe ho ki hum bada gyani hai to ahankār kaise jayega? So pehle apne ko samjhna hai maha*-murkha hai tab apko jayega. Jab tak ap ye nahi samjhenge ki hum maha-murkh hai tab tak ap agyani rahenge. (So, ego . . . till the point you believe I am very knowledgeable then how will ego go? So first you must consider yourself as a great fool, then ego will disappear. Till the time you don't consider yourself as a great fool, you will stay ignorant.) . . . (indistinct conversation) . . . Indian lady: Hum kal bhi aye the apke darshan ke liye magar time hogaya tha. Mummy aur papa bhi . . . (We came yesterday as well to see you, but it was late. Mom and dad also . . .) Prabhupāda: Acha. Abhi sab aye hain? (Okay. Everyone has come today?) Indian lady: Hum log prabhuji shayad is mahine me ja rahe hain . . . (inidistinct) . . . (We are planning to go this month Prabhuji . . .) Prabhupāda: Jaiye. Abhi to hum logon ko bhari palace he . . . Wo makan banane me , 50 varsha pehle 6 million dollar kharcha hua tha. Paris me hai bahut bada. (Please go. Now we have a big palace . . . It cost 6 million dollar to build that place 50 years ago. There's a big one in Paris.) Indian lady: Guruji ek baat hai, kehte hain kuch log ki tum puja karte ho path karte ho, ek ghanta do ghanta karte ho lekin agar tumhara dhyan nahi laga to vyarth hai. To pura dhyan nahi lagta to hume nahi karna chahiye? Jaise hum kar rahe hain kuch adha ghanta, ek ghanta . . . dusre log kehte hain tum ek ghanta baithi ho tumne puja kiya, to tumhara ek ghanta dhyan laga? Yadi nahi laga to tum do minute kyun nahi karte ho, to fir kya karna chahiye? Agar man lijiye hamara puri tarah dhyan nahi laga to kya puja nahi karni chahiye? (Guruji there is 1 thing, some people say you worship for half and hour or 1 hour but if your mind is not fixed then it's all waste. So if we are not able to concentrate fully then what should we do? Like we sit for half an hour or 1 hour . . . and other people say, you sat for 1 hour and you did worship, so were you able to concentrate for that 1 hour? If not, then why don't you sit just for 2 mins, so what should be done in that case? So suppose we don't have any concentration, what should be done in that case?) *Prabhupāda: Iska vichar bahut bhari hai. Ap Bhagavad*-gītā padhiye. Unme sab baat bataya gaya hai. Kuch log kehte hai, aise bahut se log hain wo sab kehne se kya labh. (This idea is very deep. You read Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is mentioned there. Some people say, like this many people keep saying what's the use of that.) Indian lady: . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda: Vishay to apko chahiye. Mind khali nahi reh sakta hai. Ek chiz ko chodiye to aur ek chiz ye me hoga. To Kṛṣṇa ko lijiye to nirvisay hoga. Aur Kṛṣṇa ko nahi lijiyega to visay me rahega. Bhakti yog ka artha hota hai vairagya yog. Aiye, ap piche kyun hai? Abhi aye kya? (You need some topic. Mind can't remain ideal. If you leave one topic, it will go to other. So take your mind to Kṛṣṇa and then it will become out of topics. And if you don't take to Kṛṣṇa then you will always still in the thoughts. The meaning of Bhakti yog is yog of detachment. Come, why are you sitting back? Did you come now?) Indian lady: Nahi bahut der se hain (No I came from a long time.) *Prabhupāda: Acha tabhi thik hai. Lochan Dasa Thakura geet gaya hai 'Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā' Jo bhagwat ras me jamne ke liye visahy ras chodna padega. 'viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā mukhe bolo hari hari'. Bhagwan bhi bataya hai ek jagah (Okay it's alright then. Lochan Dasa Thakura has sung: Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā To merge in the mellows of the supreme, you need to leave the material things. Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā mukhe bolo hari hari The Lord has also said in one place:) Bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām Find out this verse. Jyada vishay, bhog aiswarya me jiska man laga hai wo samadhi me aa nahi sakta hai. (If one is too much involved in material sense gratification then he can't go into trance.) Find it out. Pradyumna: "In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination of devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place." Prabhupāda: This qualification. Surendra Kumar Saigal: Your Divine Grace, how long are you staying at Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: I'm going . . . oh, Vṛndāvana? Three weeks. Surendra Kumar Saigal: When you are . . . Prabhupāda: Any time you are home. Surendra Kumar Saigal: Any time which is convenient to Your Divine Grace. Shall I come over to Vṛndāvana on the 15th evening? Fifteenth evening, I'll come over to Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Surendra Kumar Saigal: And then what is the program? Your Divine Grace is coming back to Delhi from Vṛndāvana after three weeks' stay? Prabhupāda: They have made program to go to Chandigarh. *Surendra Kumar Saigal: Chandigarh. You can . . . (indistinct) . . . Aligarh. Your Divine Grace can go to Aligarh to Delhi. The route is almost the same distance from here to Vṛndāvana. And you can go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh. About five miles, eight miles difference. It won't cost you much mileage*-wise. Prabhupāda: Udhar . . .(indistinct) . . . ka koi jhanjhat hai? (Is there any complication about this? . . .) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. The road is okay. You said we should go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh? Surendra Kumar Saigal: In my opinion you should. I heard that road is very bad. Five or six kilometers they have raised the road by about six, seven feet, and all this is all mud and muck, and the car skids. In my opinion, you go via Aligarh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Or we can come to Aligarh from Vṛndāvana. Surendra Kumar Saigal: I'm suggesting because I don't want to . . . (indistinct) . . . go back to Vṛndāvana and then come . . . (indistinct) . . . (Gopāla Kṛṣṇa converses with Indians about which road to take) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . *Pradyumna: Bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ . . . purport? Purport: " Samādhi means 'fixed mind.' The Vedic dictionary, the Nirukti, says, samyag ādhīyate 'sminn ātmatattva-yāthātmyam : 'When the mind is fixed for understanding the self, it is called samādhi .' Samādhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment, nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things. They are more or less condemned by the process of material energy." *Prabhupāda: Yehi agyan hai ki thodi der ke liye ye bhautik sukh me aaplog fas jate hain aur usise hamara agyan chaloo hota hai. Shastra adi paath karne se sab gyan milta hai vishesh karke Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Aap usko padh rahe hain ki nahin? (This is the ignorance that for a short period you get entangled in these material comforts and from that our ignorance begins. By reading the scriptures we get all knowledge, especially Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Are you reading it or not? ) *Prahlāda Mahārāja yahi bataye hain 'śoce tato vimukha*-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān' (SB 7.9.43) Hamare liye to koi dukh nahi hai, hum to kahin bhi baith jayenge aur apka naam, gun kirtan karenge. Baki hamara sochne ka jo cheez hai, ye moorkh log thode der ke bhautik sukh ke liye itna parishram karte hain, great arrangement. 'Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato' Sukh to sthayi nahi hai. Sukh to hai hi nahi, 10 sal, 20, sal, 50 sal, zyada se zyada 100 sal. 'Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato' bharam bolta hai na to God jaisa lagta hai, to ye vimudha jo hai, 'ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā' (Prahlāda Maharaj has said this śoce tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43) There is no sorrow for us, we will sit anywhere and start singing your name and glories. But the thing which we have to consider is : these rascals are working so hard day and night for a flickering moment of happiness. They are making great arrangements. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato Happiness is not permanent. There is no happiness, may be 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, maximum 100 years. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato So because of the illusion we feel ourselves as God, so this is ignorant ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā ) *Vimudha bataya ye log kya vastvik sukh hai jante nahi, jaisa ek balak hai, wo uska life ka jo purpose hai, education lena, age jake usko bahut kuch karna padega . . . to isi prakar hum log vimudh hai je jivan ka uddeshya kya hai, kis liye humko manushya jivan mila hai, kya chahiye, ye sab kuch vyavasta nahi karte, kewal acchi tarah se khayenge, achi tarah se soyenge, maza karenge, 'Māyā*-sukhāya', acchi tarah se ye sab bhog nahi kar sakega, usme bhi bahut zhanzhat hai. Thoda achi tarah se bhog karne ke liye jo vastu ki jarurat hai, sabko paisa to milta nahi, wo bhi bhagvan ki kripa se milta hai, nahi to sabhi bada aadmi ho jata tha usko paisa khub milta. Ek aadmi din bhar parishram karta hai usko khane ko do roti nahi milta hai. Roti sabhi ko milta hai, kutta ko bhi milta hai. Aur ek aadmi thoda hi parishram kiya aur bahut rupaya milta hai. Ye bhagvan dene se milta hai, ye nischit hai. Jisko bhagwan deta hai usko milta hai. Wo apna destiny lekar aata hai. Jabardasti humko zyada parishram karne se jyada mil jayega, ye bhul dharana hai (verse) so utna hi apko milega jitna apko hak hai, destiny. Lekin dukh, dukh ko koi bulata nahi tabhi dukh pahunch jata hai . . . Jisko jitna dukh milna hai wo milega, to sastra kehte hain jitna apko sukh milna ko hai wo milega, to uske liye prayas karna. Wo jitna tumko milna hai mil jayega thik time pe. Tum prayas karo kis tarah se bhagwan ko samajh sakte ho, uske liye prayas karo. (verse) Kyunki janm-janmantar gaya bhagvan ko samajha nahi, upar-niche bahut ghoome, kabhi swarglok me gaya, kabhi nark me gaya, sab doondh ke aya hai . . . ab jo manushya jivan mila hai ab bhagvan ke liye koshish karo, mil jayega, aur sukh-dukh ke liye tumhara jitna destiny hai wo mil jaygega. Adhik prayas karne ka koi jaroorat nahi. (Ignorant person doesn't know what is real happiness, just like a child, what is the purpose of his life? To get education, going forward he has to achieve a lot . . . similarly we are ignorant, what is the purpose of our life? Why have we got this human form of life? What do we want? We do not organize these matters, only eat nicely, have fun, sleep, " maya sukhaya " but he will not be able to enjoy these pleasures as well nicely, there are a lot of complications in this. To enjoy sense gratification we need resources, everyone doesn't get money, that also is received by the mercy of God, otherwise everyone would have become a rich man. One man works hard day and night and he doesn't get a square meal a day. Everybody gets a piece of bread, even a dog. On the other hand, another man puts just little effort but gets lots of money. He gets this only if God gives it, this is certain. Whoever the Lord gives, he receives it. He brings along his destiny. Forcibly if we work very hard then we will get more, that is a misconception (verse). So you will only get that much on which you have the rights, destiny. But sadness, nobody invites it but still it comes. How much one has to suffer, he will suffer. The scripture says, how much ever happiness you have to get you will get, no need to work very hard. The one which you are destined to receive, you will receive at the correct time. You should endeavor how to understand God. Because life after life has passed and we have not understood God, we have traveled in the lower planets and the upper planets, sometimes went to heavenly planets and sometimes to hellish planets, we searched everywhere and came back. Now that you have got the human form of life, try to reach for God and you will get Him. And for happiness and distress whatever is there in your destiny you will get, no need to put in an extra effort. (verse).) You have got that? *Pradyumna: Na tat*-prayāsaḥ kartavyam . Prabhupāda: What is that? *Harikeśa: Some mahā*-prasādam . Prabhupāda: For me? Harikeśa: They are offering it to you. *Prabhupāda: Na tat*-prayāsaḥ kartavyam . (aside) He can go. You can go. You have . . . (indistinct) . . . now. Ye mahine ke aakhir me, is mahine ke aakhir me Septmeber. (At the end of this month, at the end of this month, September.) He . . . her son—he is the father and mother—he's an Indian, in Detroit, very good boy, getting very nice. He, living in the temple, husband and wife, child we have. Bachā, ek bachā? (Children, one child?) He's getting very happy, very nice boy. Hamara ye sanstha me Indian koi join karta hai to udhar se hi karta hai, idhar se nahi karta hai. (In this organization if some Indian joins, then it's only from that part, they don't join from this part.) Just like their son, he's educated very nicely. Educated boys are joining from foreign countries, and not from here. Iska kya karan hai boliye. (Tell me what should we do for this.) . . . (indistinct) . . . *Ye jo Gopāla Kṛṣṇa hain ye bhi udhar se hi join hue the, he was sales manager in Coca*-Cola. Usko 15000 dollar milta hai yearly, 15000 dollar kitna hota hai? 1200 mil sakta hai, 12000 milna koi sadharan baat nahi hai. Aisa aur ek beta hai, wo bhi engineer hai, Yashomatinandan, gujrati, uska maa-baap hai. To do-char jo Indians padhe-likhe hain wo udhar se hi join hote hain. (Gopāla Kṛṣṇa had also joined from there, he was sales manager in Coca-Cola. He gets 15,000 dollars annually. How much is 15,000 dollars. He can get 1,200, is it such a small thing to get 12,000.There is one more son like this,he is also an engineer, Yasomatinandana, Gujarati, he has parents. So 2 to 4 educated Indians have all joined from there.) . . . (indistinct) . . . you have got that book? Ah . . . Stillson Judah's? Pradyumna: No. It's in Bombay. We may have a copy in Vṛndāvana also. Prabhupāda: One professor, Stillson Judah, he has written one book. After studying our movement five years he has written one Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. Surendra Kumar Saigal: Counterculture. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. To bahut scientific research hai . . .Wo opinion diya hai . . . (So a lot of scientific research is there . . . they have given the opinion . . .) Pradyumna: Doesn't have a copy here. It's published by Princeton University Press. In their religion . . . in their set of volumes on different religions. Indian woman: . . . (indistinct) . . . prasādam . Prabhupāda: Aiiye, aiiye, aiiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa, bahut kripa hai, prasad do. (Please come. Hare Kṛṣṇa, we are fortunate, give them prasad .) (new guest arrives) Accha nahi hai tabiyat bahut hi kharab hai. (Health is not good, very poor condition.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Mr. Patnaik (Defense Minister): How are you, sir? Prabhupāda: Idhar aaye koi kaam tha? (You came here, any work?) You came here for some . . . Mr. Patnaik: Yes, then I thought I would go to your old place. The . . . (indistinct) . . . this was here . . . (indistinct) . . . the old place, I didn't get any response. There was nobody there now. But when you shifted from there? There is nobody there now. Prabhupāda: No. Mr. Patnaik: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And this place is better than that. Mr. Patnaik: Very much. Oh, yes. How long you will stay? Prabhupāda: I am going tomorrow, Vṛndāvana. Mr. Patnaik: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I'll be three weeks there. Mr. Patnaik: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Mr. Patnaik: Of course. *Prabhupāda: Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa*-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam . Ye to bhagvan aradya vastu hai, brajnandan Hari. (This is a worshipable God, Brajanandana Hari.) As He is worshipable, similarly, Vṛndāvana dhāma is also worshipable. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam ramya kācid upāsana vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā va kalpitā . Upāsana , vraja-vadhū , the vraja , damsels of vrajabhūmi , the gopīs, as they worship the Lord, there is no comparison to that process of worship. Vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā . Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvana . Mr. Patnaik: I think we are going there after Parliament session closes tomorrow . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Where? Vṛndāvana. Mr. Patnaik: Vṛndāvana . . . (indistinct) . . . then I was told that Mathurā and . . . (indistinct) . . . full. Prabhupāda: They spend so much money for the roadways; still it is not good. Mr. Patnaik: Draining the different levels, question arises, the water, the excessive in quantity, and the natural drains are not efficient enough to take it out . . . (indistinct) . . . I was told that . . . Prabhupāda: There is no sufficient outlet. Mr. Patnaik: Yes. But some of those āśrama , Mathurā, it's very deep, that four feet water in the āśramas . Three, four feet water. Prabhupāda: Within the āśramas ? Mr. Patnaik: And temple. You haven't recives any message from Vṛndāvana? Pradyumna: Our temple is all right. Raman Reti is not flooded where we are. It's almost up to Fogel Ashram in the back, Yamunā, but it has not come to our Raman Reti. Mr. Patnaik: And now you will remain here in India for some time? Prabhupāda: That I do not know. I, actually, now it is little troublesome for me to travel all the year. Mr. Patnaik: You are just gone from . . . (indistinct) . . . so when the guests arrive . . . Prabhupāda: Rest, if I rest then there may be . . . because I am dealing with all neophytes. If I don't keep them alive by personal presence . . . still, they are doing nice. I have appointed twenty secretaries all over the world. I am training them. They are managing. Managing nicely. I have been in New York and Los Angeles and Hawaii, all big, big centers. London, Paris. Mr. Patnaik: Oh, it's a very great. Your program for Kurukṣetra and etcetera and the . . . Prabhupāda: Program was that they promised to give me a land. Mr. Patnaik: Who? Prabhupāda: That Chief Minister. Mr. Patnaik: Have they done so? Prabhupāda: Not yet. Mr. Patnaik: I heard about two acres was available recently, except that it . . . (indistinct) . . . I wrote you that the manner in which approach was made upset those people. And the Minister, I later learned . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: We are trying for another big scheme in Bengal. We have applied to the government to acquire land, 350 acres, a big planetarium. Planetarium. We have described the planetarium in our Fifth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . In that planetarium it is said that the moon is above the sun planet, by one million six hundred thousand miles. Mr. Patnaik: What does astronomy say? The modern astronomy. Prabhupāda: They say the moon planet is nearer to earth planet, and they have gone there. Mr. Patnaik: Have you given up any idea about Kurukṣetra? Prabhupāda: No, no, not . . . Mr. Patnaik: No, because if you have the idea, the land is the least part of it, because so much is to be done . . . (indistinct) . . . if the idea is that something should be done. I learned that gentleman, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . and he has said that he will do something. I was not there at the time of the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (aside) You bring one little plate prasādam from there, from that . . . Mr. Patnaik: And you will be in Vṛndāvana for some . . . Prabhupāda: Three weeks. Mr. Patnaik: After that you don't know. After that where you go, you don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Patnaik: Well, this is God's work, Lord Kṛṣṇa's work. I am trying . . . (indistinct) . . . to cooperate with you, because nobody can do. Prabhupāda: No, you have done tremendous work. Mr. Patnaik: No, but which is very little considering the situation, the condition, problem in the country. I am at a lower level than your level than your work . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The one encouraging thing in this movement is that our books are being very much appreciated. In all universities, foreign and Indian, libraries, professors, learned scholars. Mr. Patnaik: Yes, they'll branch out and then . . . it's a great service. Prabhupāda: We are selling books to the extent of sixty thousand dollars daily. Mr. Patnaik: I see. Prabhupāda: That is our only hope, that we shall not be financially in difficulty. People are taking our books very nicely. People are accepting our literature. Mr. Patnaik: It is not that difficulties were not there also . . . (indistinct) . . . I don't have the support, but I feel . . . (indistinct) . . . find that several places the demand for this, for the acceptance also . . . (indistinct) . . . coming forward, but not in the manner in which I had wanted . . . (indistinct) . . . lakhs of people stand against the forces which want to . . . (indistinct) . . . religion and moral side. There should be a linking up of all those who want religion to remain and morality to also be there. Those forces have to be met by also organized force from the right kind of people, religious people . . . (indistinct) . . . I hope they are not coming in your way. Prabhupāda: No, no. Mr. Patnaik: I remember that you had written yourself that there is something we could do together. Possibly this question, building and all that, whenever it comes there. It is good to have that building and that land, but even before that, there is work to be done at the Kurukṣetra. *Prabhupāda: My point is that Kurukṣetra is the place where Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken. So if we take the words of Bhagavad-gita as it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, then people will be benefitted. Mr. Patnaik: That is basic, of course. The foundation. *Prabhupāda: But if we do not take the words of Bhagavad*-gītā , then moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). That I believe. (aside) Find out this verse. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo . Mr. Patnaik: That's true. I also believe that there must be a direct . . . Prabhupāda: No, why not direct? Mr. Patnaik: Putting in your interpretation, that is wrong. It should be direct. That doesn't mean only those people who have accepted this can come together. Prabhupāda: And why the others will not accept? Mr. Patnaik: No, we have made, you must have seen our literature, *Gītā* as a text, but still people may not judge . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, we should not depend on the people's acceptance only. We have to present *Gītā* as it is. Now everything is not accepted by everyone. Even if you make change, there is no guarantee that they will . . . Mr. Patnaik: No, no. Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not speaking to you. Anyone. Mr. Patnaik: I am not trying to make a show. I believe a direct interpretation is important thing more than the other kinds of ideas and conceptions. Pradyumna: "Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demoniac and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities and their culture of knowledge are all defeated." Prabhupāda: Go on. Go on. I have given any purport? *Pradyumna: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. "There are many devotees who assume themselves to be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and devotional service but at heart do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, as the Absolute Truth. For them, the fruit of devotional service—going back to Godhead—will never be tasted. Similarly, those who are engaged in fruitive, pious activities and who are ultimately hoping to be liberated from this material entanglement will never be successful either, because they deride the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. In other words, persons who mock Kṛṣṇa are to be understood to be demoniac or atheistic. As described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā , such demoniac miscreants never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore their mental speculations to arrive at the Absolute Truth bring them to the false conclusion that the ordinary living entity and Kṛṣṇa are one and the same. With such a false conviction, they think that the body of any human being is now simply covered by material nature and that as soon as one is liberated from this material body there is no difference between God and himself. This attempt to become one with Kṛṣṇa will be baffled because of delusion. Such atheistic and demoniac cultivation of spiritual knowledge is always futile. That is the indication of this verse. For such persons, cultivation of the knowledge in the Vedic literature, like the Vedānta-sūtra and the Upaniṣads , is always baffled." *"It is a great offense, therefore, to consider Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, to be an ordinary man. Those who do so are certainly deluded, because they cannot understand the eternal form of Kṛṣṇa. In the Bṛhad*-vaiṣṇava mantra it is clearly stated that one who considers the body of Kṛṣṇa to be material should be driven out from all rituals and activities of the śruti. And if one by chance sees his face, he should at once take bath in the Ganges to rid himself of infection. People jeer at Kṛṣṇa because they are envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Their destiny is certainly to take birth after birth in the species of atheistic and demoniac life. Perpetually, their real knowledge will remain under delusion, and gradually they will regress to the darkest region of creation." Mr. Patnaik: (indistinct) . . . I was reading this yesterday, the Eleventh Chapter. Prabhupāda: Eleventh Chapter? Mr. Patnaik: Eleventh Chapter, yes. There are twelve, twelve chapters. There, Kṛṣṇa Bhagavān has a dialogue with Uddhava. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Pradyumna: He's referring to Ekādaśa*-skandha of the Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Uddhava. Mr. Patnaik: And there I felt . . . I thought that maybe whenever we meet I'll bring up this question with you. 'Cause the way in which it has been translated in Hindi which I read it does create a little question as to what Bhagavān Himself said about the status of the soul, the individual soul, and relationship . . . (indistinct) . . . because although I think I should have got it, they don't give it to the Life Members . . . (indistinct) Pradyumna: Yes, *Bhāgavatam* , we're up to the Seventh Canto now in the printing. Mr. Patnaik: So this canto has come. *Pradyumna: Yes, the canto has come out. So Saptama*-skandha , pādyokta . We're up to that. Mr. Patnaik: Now, well then if it is, if the member is . . . (indistinct) . . . now in the Eleventh there is . . . Prabhupāda: Eleventh Canto, yes. Then you will remember the verse? Mr. Patnaik: No, no, number . . . (indistinct) . . . again and again I had gone to that, and as to that, ultimately there is no difference. As soon as this . . . (indistinct) . . . when it comes. I would like this because I belong to the sect of our country, middle sect, from Swami Narayana. He's based on Rāmānujācārya philosophy, which says that all the souls are there, they are the body of the creator Bhagavān, just as the human ātmā has this body. This means there is the difference also identity. Identity is one, and yet they have their own place. That have been the faith which I have been . . . (indistinct) . . . now in many places this sometimes this differentiation remains, sometimes there is things said which wipe it out. I thought you would be the best person to give me some guidance . . . *Prabhupāda: As you say that Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad*-gita , mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). We living entities, we are part and parcel of God. Mr. Patnaik: Aṁśa . Prabhupāda: Aṁśa . So any common man can understand what is the . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- September 3, 1976, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: So, everything is going nice? Akṣayānanda: Yes, by your grace only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a very beautiful garden for you. Prabhupāda: Hm. Garden? Oh. Akṣayānanda: Guesthouse has improved very much. Now we have about twenty paying guests. And during Śrāvaṇa and Janmāṣṭamī it was completely full. Very, very encouraging. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, many of our Life Members were turned down. We met some in Delhi. They said they couldn't get in. The whole thing was full. Akṣayānanda: They were fighting to come. Prabhupāda: So, they are allowed three days free? Akṣayānanda: Only. Also book distribution has improved very much. Prabhupāda: Locally? Akṣayānanda: Here in the temple specifically. Haihaya has been concentrating. He's very good. Prabhupāda: Hindi? Akṣayānanda: Yes, Hindi magazines and what we can get. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Viśāla alone does about two, three hundred every day. Akṣayānanda: Viśāla is . . . Prabhupāda: Where is our Viśvambhara? Viśvambhara is helping nicely? Akṣayānanda: Oh, yes. Hundred percent. (break) French. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the new French *Bhāgavatam* on the back. Prabhupāda: Oh. I think I have seen it. Hari-śauri: Yes, that's the one we got in Paris, Bhagavān. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It looks very nice. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bank is going nice? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The bank. Akṣayānanda: The bank is all right. *Prabhupāda: Sab theek thak? Tabiyat theek hai to? Aur sab padosi theek*-thaak hai? (Everything is alright? Your health is fine? All neighbors are doing good?) So, the gurukula building, how far it is? . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . you have got them, the keys? (devotees look through keys) Indian Man: Ji Han. (Yes) Prabhupāda: Main to sab tumhare bharosa me hi choda hun,ye log bichare ladkhalata hai. (I have left everything under your trust, else these people get wobbly.) . . . (indistinct conversation) (break) Prabhupāda: Ek manjil hogaya?(1 floor is completed?) Indian Man: Ek manjil ab nahi ho sakta, ek mahina lag jayega. (1 floor can't be done now, it will take around 1 month.) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When devotees come for Gaura*-Pūrṇimā . . . Ground floor me reh sakte hain . . .Jab bhakt ayenge agle saal festival pe, ground floor aur first floor me reh sakenge. (They can stay on the ground floor . . .When devotees come next year for the festival, they cab stay in the ground floor and first floo.) (. . . indistinct. . .) Prabhupāda: Ayega to idhar se hokar sab jayega. (If they come, they would first come over here and then go.) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Māyāpur, Delhi, Vṛndāvana, Bombay. From Bombay back to Europe. Bhagatjī: . . .Hamari aur nahi aye Prabhupāda? Ki Nityānanda festival yahan ho aur Gaur Purnima Māyāpur me ho, aur Ram Navami Bombay ho (You won't come to our place, Prabhupāda? We can have Nityānanda festival here and then Gaur Purnima in Māyāpur and Ram Navami in Bombay.) . . . (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda: . . . So let them come first of all here from Delhi. Bhagatjī: They come first here. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Thing is, the whole thing has to be completed in three weeks, because the American GBCs don't like . . . they think it is a very big loss financially. . . . Agar teen hafta se jyada India me rehana hai to financially bahut mehenga padta hai kyunki sab devotees . . . (. . . to stay in India for more than 3 weeks becomes very expensive for all the devotees because . . .) Book distribution stops completely. They are saying . . . (indistinct conversation with Bhagatjī) Prabhupāda: Where is Hari-śauri? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hari-śauri? Prabhupāda wants you. Prabhupāda: Is that correct? Is that correct key? What is that? Hari-śauri: This one's for some of the locks on the doors. Prabhupāda: Which door? Hari-śauri: Ah, front door. I think it was one on the bedroom originally. They may have taken them off again. Prabhupāda: Find out the door. Bhagatjī: . . . (indistinct Hindi conversation with Prabhupāda) *Prabhupāda: He is pakkā*-bāṇiyā , and here is another, more pakkā . (laughter) Ye pakka baniya hai. (He is a thorough business man) Bhagatjī: (. . . indistinct . . . ) Prabhupāda: Aap to sahansheel hain, ye apka special quality hai. (You are so tolerant, this is your special quality.) He is very tolerant. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's very calm. Bhagatjī: . . . To wo kehne lage ye jo mandir hai . . .lekin aap . . . Mene kaha tha dekhiye, me Iskcon Prabhupāda ji pe viswas karta hun, aur me hriday se kehta hun ki me Iskcon ko . . . wese me jab me hun ya na hun . . . (indistinct) . . . (So he started saying, this temple . . . but you . . . I told, look, I believe in Iskcon Prabhupāda ji, and I say it with my heart that I believe in Iskcon . . . even if I am there or not there . . .) Prabhupāda: Apne kya socha hai? (What have you thought?) Bhagatjī: . . . Maine, ye socha saab, ye contractor bade ache mile hain, badhiya party hai, bade imandar aadmi hain . . .Kitni musibat padi hai unko nikalne me ye ap hamare dil se puchiye. Kitni musibat padi hai saaman uthane me . . . (I have thought, the contractors whom we have got are very good. It's a good party, they are very honest . . . You can ask my heart, how great difficulty it was in getting them out. There was so much difficulty in lifting the luggage . . . ) Prabhupāda: Mumbai se . . .(From Mumbai . . .) Indian man: . . . Prabhupāda ne nikalwa diya Mumbai se. . .(Prabhupāda got us out from Mumbai . . .) Bhagatjī: . . . To Prabhupāda wo jab me gaya, sabse pucha,humne kaha pehle kimat lagayi hai apne .Mene unse keh diya 10 rupaya hum government ne (. . . indistinct) aur itna hamara paisa kharch ho raha hai. Aur aap banayenge 7 feet jo hai sadak ke center se master plan me apko zameen chodni padegi agar ap ashram banayegnge. Aur residence banayenge to aur jyada zameen chodni padegi (. . . indistinct. . .) Me ek bhai ke nate maine kaha ki apse me keh raha hun ap karo , aur hamare bachon ke liye khelne ka maidan ban jayega, ek tent ban jayega chota sa. Are aap usko muft de do to hum apka naam likhwaden isme (. . . indistinct . . .) Hum chinta karte rahe Prabhupāda ye zameen to hum apne paise se lenge chahe kuch ho.(So Prabhupāda when I went, I asked everybody, I asked them to fix the price first. I said 10 rupees our Government . . . (indistinct) . . . and this the amount which gets spent. And you want to make 7 feet from road's center, so in the master plan you would have to leave land if you want to build ashram. And if you want to build a residence, you would have to leave even more land. As a brother, I said you do it, and there is will be some space as playground for our children to play, and we could also put a small tent. And if you give it for free, we will write your name on it. ) Prabhupāda: Tit for Tat. Bahut baniya hain aap. (All laughing) Bhagwan Kṛṣṇa bhi baniya hain. (You are a very big merchant. Lord Kṛṣṇa was also a merhcant.) Bhagatjī: . . . Han yashoda mayya to vaishya hain. (Yes, Yashoda mayya was a vaishya.) Prabhupāda: Bhagwan Vṛndāvana me baniya hain aur jagah me Kshatriya hain. Hain to bhagwan sabhi. (Lord is merchant in Vṛndāvana but in all other places he is Kshatriya. Anyways, in both forms he is God.) Prabhupāda: (to Pālikā) You have come before? Or with us? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: With you. Pālikā: In a bus. I have some fruits ready for you, if you'd like to take. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have . . . (indistinct) . . . paraṭā ? No. What you have prepared? Bhagatjī: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Jitna jaroorat hai utna collect karo. (Collect only that which is required.) Keep patience. I am not dishonest. Prabhupāda: Dishonest or not . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . your family is very nice. Bhagatjī: Keep patience. I am not dishonest . . . (indistinct Hindi) Devotee: Your breakfast has come. Breakfast is here. Prabhupāda: I'll take. This man, he's not . . . (indistinct) . . . jaya . Devotees: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Come Krishna*-Balaram sabko sukhi kare, aur kya humlog chahte hain. Sab uni ka kripa hai. (May Kṛṣṇa Balarāma make everyone happy, what else do we want? Everything is His mercy.) Balarāma . . . bala-hīnena labhya (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 3.2.4). Wo bhagvan Baladev ka kripa bina yahan kabza nahi hota hai. Wo Vivekananda uska meaning kiya hai. Jiska takat kam hai wo kabhi . . . labh nahi kar sakta. Mota-taaza khub maans khao wo mota-taaza bahut . . . ye hota hai. (Balarāma . . . if He showers His mercy then anything is possible. Vivekananda gave the meaning of this verse to one who has less muscle power . . . what is the use? Fat, sturdy, eats a lot of meat and becomes fat . . . this is what happens.) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: By your mercy, Balarāmajī is giving. *Prabhupāda: Nitāiyer koruṇā habe braje rādhā*-kṛṣṇa pābe . These rascals, they do not know. Nitāi, balarāma hoila nitāi . So without the mercy of Balarāma, nobody can appreciate Vṛndāvana life. Jaya . (end) Conversation -- September 4, 1976, Vrndavana Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is sādhu . Not the dress. Now, what is the . . . Harikeśa: "The symptoms of a sādhu are that he is tolerant, merciful, and friendly to all living entities. He has no enemies, he is peaceful, he abides by the scriptures and all his characteristics are sublime." *Prabhupāda: This is sādhu . The first qualification is titikṣava , very tolerant. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has said, kṣamā*-rūpaṁ tapasvinām. Those who are tapasvīs , their first duty is how much he is forgiving, how much he has learned to forgive. Kṣamā-rūpaṁ tapasvinām. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena (SB 6.1.13). So what is the explanation? *Harikeśa: Purport? "A sādhu , as described above, is a devotee of the Lord. His concern, therefore, is to enlighten people in devotional service to the Lord. That is his mercy. He knows that without devotional service to the Lord, human life is spoiled. A devotee travels all over the country, from door to door, preaching, 'Be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Be a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Don't spoil your life in simply fulfilling your animal propensities. Human life is meant for self*-realization, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness.' These are the preachings of a sādhu . He is not satisfied with his own liberation. He always thinks about others. He is the most compassionate personality towards all the fallen souls. One of his qualifications, therefore, is kāruṇika , great mercy to the fallen souls. While engaged in preaching work, he has to meet with so many opposing elements, and therefore the sādhu , or devotee of the Lord, has to be very tolerant. Someone may ill-treat him, because the conditioned souls are not prepared to receive the transcendental knowledge of devotional service. They don't like it; *that is their disease. The sādhu has the thankless task of imposing upon them the importance of devotional service. Sometimes devotees are personally attacked with violence. Lord Jesus Christ was crucified, Haridāsa Ṭhākura was caned in twenty*-two marketplaces, and Lord Caitanya's principal assistant, Nityānanda, was violently attacked by Jagāi and Mādhāi. But still they were tolerant because their mission was to deliver the fallen souls. One of the qualifications of a sādhu is that he is very tolerant and is merciful to all fallen souls. He is merciful because he is the well-wisher of all living entities. He is not only a well-wisher of human society, but a well-wisher of animal society as well. It is said here, sarva-dehinām , which indicates all living entities who have accepted a material body. Not only does the human being have a material body, but other living entities, such as cats and dogs, also have material bodies. The devotee of the Lord is merciful to everyone—the cats, dogs, trees, etc. He treats all living entities in such a way that they can ultimately get salvation from this material entanglement. Śivānanda Sena, one of the disciples of Lord Caitanya, gave liberation to a dog by treating the dog transcendentally. There are many instances where a dog got salvation by association with a sādhu , because a sādhu engages in the highest philanthropic activities for the benediction of all living entities. Yet although a sādhu is not inimical towards anyone, the world is so ungrateful that even a sādhu has many enemies." "What is the difference between an enemy and a friend? It is a difference in behavior. A sādhu behaves with all conditioned souls for their ultimate relief from the material entanglement. Therefore, no one can be more friendly than a sādhu in relieving a conditioned soul. A sādhu is calm, and he quietly and peacefully follows the principles of scripture. A sādhu means one who follows the principles of scripture and at the same time is a devotee of the Lord. One who actually follows the principles of scripture must be a devotee of God because all the śāstras instruct us to obey the orders of the Personality of Godhead. Sādhu , therefore, means a follower of the scriptural injunctions and a devotee of the Lord. All these characteristics are prominent in a devotee. A devotee develops all the good qualities of the demigods, whereas a nondevotee, even though academically qualified, has no actual good qualifications or good characteristics . . ." Prabhupāda: Where is this going on? (asking about banging sound) Hari-śauri: That's just the old reception room. Prabhupāda: What is it? Hari-śauri: They are making alterations. Prabhupāda: Alteration? What is that alteration? Hari-śauri: I don't know exactly what they're doing. Harikeśa: No, what they're doing is that room, everybody goes there, the guests all go there. So in the past it's just been a big empty, wasted room. So now what they're doing is making it a big preaching room with photos all around and book tables set up in such a way that someone can just walk in that room and there's a whole exhibit for him to see. And even if . . . Prabhupāda: Who has gotten this idea? Harikeśa: I think Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. It's an exhibition room. Prabhupāda: Then they are breaking wall, or what? Harikeśa: No, no, they're not breaking. They made a big door so that you can walk straight in from the outside. You saw that door yesterday. Now what they're doing is they're building shelves and bookcases. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That sound is disturbing. Harikeśa: Would you like them to stop it until you left? Prabhupāda: If stop, then how their work will go on? They manufacture ideas and spend money. This is the difficulty. Everyone manufactures some idea. And break it, do it, dig it. Money is coming, and they are spending it. They cannot adjust whatever is there. Big, big ideas. Big, big belly. And money we have to bring from America. "Give me one lakh , give me one lakh , 15,000. I make idea, you pay." So many rooms you can make showroom. Why breaking this door, breaking that door? Too many cooks spoils the broth. And repairing and, what is called, addition, alteration, will never stop. I do not know how to stop it. Now, the other, yesterday, that Viśvambhara said . . . you were here, no? Bisancandra said, suggesting there should be rack three feet high, seven feet high, this high . . . everyone will suggest. And spend money. Any friend, you bring him, he'll suggest so that you may spend it. And wherefrom money will come? "Oh, that is your look after. I am your friend, I am giving you good suggestion. Break it. Do it. I am your friend. You break your head." (laughs) There was a Muhammadan king, Raja Uddin or some . . . Nizamuddin. Nizamuddin there is a tomb in Delhi. He was poet. So if some friends come he would read some writing, and he will suggest, the friend will suggest, "Why don't you make like this?" "Oh, it is good. All right." He'll do it, whatever he says. And when he goes away, then again makes his own. So the secretary said, "Why you are changing?" "What can I do? Those associate . . . that is my friend. And that is nonsense; therefore I am again doing what I wrote." So we have to do that. As soon as you call anybody, he'll give you some suggestion, "Make this alteration, make this alteration." Hmm. (pause) Prabhupāda: So description of the sādhu is there. It is very nice. Where they will find this description all over the world? Hmm? Harikeśa: I think there's only one person who's following that description. Prabhupāda: No, I say about Bhāgavata's description. How perfect it is in any subject matter. I have tried to explain what is there in the Bhāgavatam , expand it. That is not my explanation; *that is Kṛṣṇa's explanation. I cannot explain now. That moment I could explain. That means Kṛṣṇa's . . . I can understand that, that the description is very nicely given. Although it is my writing, but I know it is not my writing. It is Kṛṣṇa's writing. So we should read Bhāgavatam always. Nityaṁ bhāgavata*-sevayā (SB 1.2.18). We should not waste our time. So we have to check that closet. You can . . . Harikeśa: "They say there is no . . ." (break) Prabhupāda: Then you are only intelligent. All are fools. That means you are fool number one. If you think like that . . . Harikeśa: Yes, but in India . . . Prabhupāda: No, now you cannot say Indians. (laughs) Now we cannot say only Indians worship Kṛṣṇa. Whole world. That is God. They are not fools and rascals. They are educated, they are civilized. Why they accept Kṛṣṇa as God? Yesterday I was telling who? I think Caraṇam . . .? Hari-śauri: Caraṇāravindam. Prabhupāda: Caraṇāravindam, that the Englishmen were ruling over us. Now here is English boy, he's giving me massage and fanning me. What is the reason? Unless he feels something obligation that, "He has given us Kṛṣṇa," what business he has got? Not for him, for all of you, to give so valuable free service, unless there is this sense. What do you think? You have no obligation. You are European, American. I am Indian. It is through this via media, Kṛṣṇa. This is practical. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is God. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). Because they have got sense that "We have got God," therefore they are feeling so much obliged. Kṛṣṇa is God, there is no doubt about it. It is not yet ready? Hari-śauri: They're making a plate now. Prabhupāda: Viśvambhara is there? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we shall follow strictly. "Here is God. Take." Because if you are serious after God, "Here is God. Take Kṛṣṇa." This is our philosophy. Hmm? What is the answer? If he's serious about God. I think this paper wrote that, that Village ? "We thought God is dead." Hari-śauri: Greenwich Village. Prabhupāda: East Village? That paper? Hari-śauri: It's that paper in New York. Prabhupāda: Long ago. Harikeśa: Village Voice . Prabhupāda: Hah. Village . . . Harikeśa: The Village Voice . Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. They told first that, "We thought God is dead." And actually they were dancing in the name of God, Acyutānanda and Brahmānanda. You have seen the picture showing? Hari-śauri: In this French Back To Godhead . (showing picture) Harikeśa: Oh, that's Acyutānanda too! Oh! Prabhupāda: They were the first candidates to dance with my kīrtana . Harikeśa: I didn't know that was Acyutānanda. I recognize Hayagrīva but . . . Hari-śauri: That's not Hayagrīva, it's Brahmānanda. Harikeśa: That's not Hayagrīva? Prabhupāda: No. Hayagrīva . . . Hari-śauri: It's a picture of Brahmānanda and Acyutānanda dancing, and Prabhupāda's playing on tabla, and there's Kīrtanānanda sat down on the corner. Harikeśa: Boy, was he skinny in those days! This is Brahmānanda? And this is Kīrtanānanda Swami sitting down? Prabhupāda: Just Brahmānanda, Kīrtanānanda standing together. Hari-śauri: Acyutānanda. Prabhupāda: Oh, Acyutānanda. Harikeśa: Acyutānanda. And Kīrtanānanda's sitting down. Prabhupāda: Kīrtanānanda's sitting there? Hari-śauri: Yes. He sat next to you. He's shaved up. Harikeśa: They're so skinny. Prabhupāda: This was published in New York Times . Harikeśa: New York Times ? Prabhupāda: With picture. The other picture was published in Voice, Village Voice , yes. Yes. Big picture. One page. They felt something—otherwise, why they should publish? Appealed to them, that "Here is God." Harikeśa: This is really a historic picture. Prabhupāda: Underneath a tree I was sitting and speaking. That's all. And when I would come back from the park to my apartment, at least two dozen people will come with me. Hari-śauri: Like a Pied Piper. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: There's a story in the West about a man called the Pied Piper. He went to one place and played the flute, and all the children followed him away from the village. You're like the Pied Piper who went to the West, took all the children. Prabhupāda: If you know French language you can read it. Harikeśa: He knows French. Prabhupāda: Ah, you know. What is written there? Hari-śauri: The article is by Hayagrīva, and the heading, it says, "Are you from India?" That was when he met you on the street. Prabhupāda: Yes, he first of all met me on the street and asked me this question. And I brought him, "Yes, I have taken one apartment here. You come here with me." Then I came back to show him the apartment. And from the next day they began to come, Kīrtanānanda and Hayagrīva. Hari-śauri: Second Avenue apartment? Prabhupāda: Yes. And this Umāpati. Then Satsvarūpa. They began to come regularly. Harikeśa: Mukunda, you were already . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, Mukunda was before that. Hari-śauri: When was this, then, when Acyutānanda and Brahmānanda came? That was after . . . Prabhupāda: This was in the park, Tompkinson. Hari-śauri: That was after Hayagrīva and . . . Prabhupāda: No, simultaneous. Harikeśa: This was the fall of 1966. October, maybe. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was going in the park on Sunday and began from three: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, that dundubhi . What is that, in the hand? *Harikeśa: A tom*-tom. *Hari-śauri: Tom*-tom drum. *Prabhupāda: Tom*-tom. Yes. Saurabha: He's explaining why you came to America, and that in three years you spread the mantra all over the Western world. Harikeśa: Yogeśvara has many pictures of this. I saw all of them once. Prabhupāda: He is good collector. (break) What is that reason? What is that reason? *Indian man: To perceive things, and after that we can arrive at long*-term solutions. Prabhupāda: First of all, what is the problem and what is the solution? What is the problem that you require solution? Indian man: Any problem which comes. Prabhupāda: No, what is that? That I want to know. Indian man: Problem is of being happy in the world. Prabhupāda: These are vague terms. You must distinctly say that, "This is happiness" and "This is problem." What is your . . . what is the idea of happiness and what is the problem? That I want to know. Indian man: That I'm not very much clear at this stage of life. Prabhupāda: Happiness . . . suppose if you can get a nice, palatable dish for eating, you'll be happy. But the dog also, if he can get some good eating, he'll be happy. So where is the difference between dog's happiness and your happiness? Indian man: Happiness should be combined with mental peace. Prabhupāda: What is that mental peace? Indian man: To rest in yourself only. Don't run after worldly things. Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is not possible for the animal. Therefore to remain happy within yourself, that is a prerogative of the human being. But we are not trying for that purpose. We are trying to be happy by eating, by sleeping, by sex or by defense. This is our platform of happiness. A dog cannot go to the restaurant, but a human being, if he goes to a restaurant and he can eat palatable dishes, he thinks he's happy. But what is that eating? In your standard you feel happiness, whereas on the street you'll find a pig, he's happy by eating stool. One man's food another man's poison. So eating happiness is there, but the standard different. Therefore this eating is common affair, and happiness derived from eating is as good by the dog as by the pig and human being. Indian man: Your idea is clear. *Prabhupāda: So we should know . . . happiness is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā : sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyaṁ grāhyam (BG 6.21). What is happiness, that is beyond the senses. The sense happiness is there by the pig and the man. But his standard of sense happiness is different from the man's. Standard may be different, but the happiness derived from the subject matter is the same. There is no difference. Indian man: So happiness lies above the senses, above our indriyanas . Prabhupāda: Hah. Happiness means spiritual happiness. That they do not know. Therefore I began my words that so long one is after material happiness he remains as an animal. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) *Because the animal cannot derive spiritual happiness. They do not know. The man can know. Just like this boy, he's coming from very high family in America, but he's now happy in this way, by taking sannyāsa , giving up everything, living very plainly. He has got money, he has got beautiful wife, he has got beautiful home, everything. But he has given up. Not his example . . . in our country there were many many big, big kings, rājarṣis . Just like Bharata Mahārāja. He was emperor of the whole world. He gave up everything at the age of twenty*-four years—young wife, young children. There are many examples. So actually, we have lost our Vedic culture, the objective, and therefore we are suffering. Simply by holding meetings and . . . of course, these things will go on. Government has no other remedy by tax. Whether people are happy or they are unhappy, it doesn't matter. They have got the power, tax. Indian man: Accha sir. (Okay sir.) the end of . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Prasādam . Indian man: Your ideas are superb. Prabhupāda: You remain in Mathurā? Indian man: Yes, I am. Prabhupāda: Here is prasādam . Give. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- September 5, 1976, Vrndavana *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . no, that is wrong . . . (indistinct) . . . sannyāsī should go on preaching, preaching, preaching, preaching. Practically, I was sitting here in Vṛndāvana, in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple. So at the age of seventy years, nobody goes out. At least from Vṛndāvana nobody goes at the age of seventy years. But Kṛṣṇa asked me. I thought that "I must go. Guru Mahārāja wanted it, Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . let me try." So if I had not gone, then this institution would not have developed. So this is practical. Mahataḥ nirvicaraṇam . Mahātmā , they must move. So when there is absolute necessity they may stay. Otherwise, they must move. Move on, move on, move on, move on, move on. No staying. That is principle. No staying. I am this old age, I cannot move . . . my . . . I . . . so many . . . still I am traveling all over the world. I am simply interested that whatever I have done, it may not be vanquished in my absence. Let me go and encourage them. Otherwise, I have no capacity to move now. But still I am moving, only for this purpose. Girinaṁ gṛhna-cetasam . So a sannyāsī must move. A sannyāsī must not stay anywhere more than three days. That is the principle. So he was moving, but his moving is creating disturbances here. Therefore I have stopped. And besides that, a temple is nirguṇa . A sannyāsī is forbidden to stay anywhere else, but in a temple he can stay for more than three days, provided there is business. Otherwise, there is no necessity. So this is the exclusion. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That solves all the problems. *Prabhupāda: No, solves or not solves, we shall see later on. But this is the principle. This is the principle. Solution . . . if we do not become very simple servant of Kṛṣṇa, problems will increase. It will never be solved. If you have got any other desire than to serve Kṛṣṇa, then the problems will increase. It will never decrease. Therefore bhakti begins, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). No other purpose than to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is only purpose. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam ( CC Madhya 19.167). So our only business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa in His original status as Kṛṣṇa, and in His other status as Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and in both ways, He's insisting to preach. That is a very important business. Neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu nor Kṛṣṇa has recommended that you become a great devotee and sit down in a place and talk big, big words and simply eat and sleep. Kṛṣṇa has never said. That is not Kṛṣṇa's, neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu's business. That is not required. Boro boro badorer boro boro pet, lanka dingate matha kore het. (Big big monkey, big big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy.) "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." There are very many big, big bellies in Vṛndāvana, but if they're asked to preach Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission all over the world—melancholy. Melancholy. Big, big monkey, big, big belly. So you have taken a very great mission that world preaching. That is very, very nice decision. So you have got buses and you have got capacity. You do this. And one in Germany, one in India, come and go, come and go. What do you think? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Then I want to do that, but there are some problems which I'm experiencing. Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: Well, for instance, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa has the habit of deporting my men to different centers, even against their will. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't have that habit. Haṁsadūta: Then the men . . . I explained the other night . . . Prabhupāda: Let him explain, don't . . . Haṁsadūta: When we come to a center, naturally there are certain men who want to go traveling. Not all men want to go traveling, but there are definitely some who want to go traveling. And if they come to me, what should I do? Tell them, "No, I'm sorry"? Prabhupāda: No, no, traveling, if somebody wants to travel, what he is? First of all you must know. A brahmacārī , a sannyāsī , they are meant for preaching. Not gṛhasthas . Haṁsadūta: No, not gṛhasthas . I'm not taking any gṛhasthas . Prabhupāda: So if a brahmacārī , gṛhastha , yes, if he wants to travel, so there is no objection. Haṁsadūta: But what is happening is that, for instance, someone will join me, then Gopāla will catch up with him and send the man to Delhi or to Hyderabad. The man will run away and come back again, and again he will be forced to go away. This is what I object to. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, this is wrong. I'll tell you what the facts are. In every temple there are certain key positions for some devotee. In no temple we are trying to keep more men than necessary. Sometimes they come and he preaches to them and he gives them money. If he is the temple president . . . like in Bombay Haṁsadūta came, he had a fight with Girirāja. Girirāja was ready to write such a strong letter to you. He gave money to few devotees . . . Prabhupāda: The temple establishment, that has to be maintained. Haṁsadūta: That I understand. Prabhupāda, I understand that. Prabhupāda: So why, why the . . .? Besides that, if you want to take someone or if anyone is willing to go with you, the president of the local temple, he should be requested. Or the man who wants to go, that "I want to go with him," so if the president thinks that he can be spared, then he can go. But if he thinks that his presence is necessary, why he should go? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is one of the GBC resolutions. No devotee can go without the temple president's permission. Haṁsadūta: I understand . . . Prabhupāda: I cannot hear two. Let him . . . when I ask him . . . Haṁsadūta: In this particular instance, and practically always, I do that. But Girirāja was so unreasonable about the matter that the boy actually ran away. Prabhupāda: No, no, that, that, there are so many people . . . if you do not satisfy his senses, everyone is free to run away. That you cannot check. You cannot say, accuse somebody or somebody. Because here everyone is giving voluntary service. Nobody is servant. So if he doesn't like something, at any moment he can go away. At any moment. Just like yesterday the Śāstrī came. So he went away. And somebody, they are coming, going. So you cannot check them, because they are not our paid servants. If they are very kind that they have come here, cooperating with us. But still there is some decency, if one is engaged in some work, all of a sudden he should go away, all of a sudden . . . that is not very good. That is not very good. Decently that, "I used to go, and now in preaching work, so there will be no difficulty," this is the arrangement. Something must be done. All of a sudden, if somebody goes, that isn't very good. Tamāla also, if he did so, that is not good. Because I want some men, I cannot kidnap from any place. That is not good. We must see that the management is going on, the management may not suffer. But the president should allow to go if there is extra men. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Another point in this connection, Prabhupāda, the men who come with me, they don't stay with me forever. They will stay a few months some of them, and then they go. In this way . . . Prabhupāda: Then that is the habit . . . Haṁsadūta: For instance, in this temple, there are so many men which are on our party who are . . . Prabhupāda: So many men. We don't want so many men. Now we are going to minimize. We don't want so many men. That if . . . now we have to estimate how many men absolutely required. So many men we shall keep. Others, they must go to the preaching. They must go to the preaching. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can all go on the buses, the extra men. Prabhupāda: No, they should be distributed. They may go to other centers. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hyderabad needs men. *Prabhupāda: Here, unnecessarily increasing men and increasing expenditure, twenty thousand, twenty*-five thousand, thirty thousand. Why? Unnecessary. Only minimum men should be kept who are actually useful. There is no need of keeping extra men. What is that? Harikeśa: When you originally were speaking about Vṛndāvana, you mentioned that Vṛndāvana would be a place for those people who have become a little disturbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or burned out, we call it, from so much activity, that he comes here and gets rejuvenated here. Is that still . . . *Prabhupāda: That is a fact, but provided he is devotee. If he's not a devotee then he will go away, here and there, here and there. That is the habit. And a devotee is satisfied anywhere. A devotee is not that, "I'll go to Vṛndāvana, then I'll be satisfied." Nārāyaṇa*-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). I did not go to your country taking Vṛndāvana with me. I had to stay in places where in the refrigerator there is meat. And I was cooking. When I opened it I saw, "Here is meat. All right, what can be done? Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. Akṣayānanda: But actually you did take Vṛndāvana with you. Prabhupāda: So if I would have stuck to Vṛndāvana, "No, no, I cannot go anywhere, leaving Vṛndāvana . . ." No, we can go to hell if there is Kṛṣṇa's service. Harikeśa: So is there some time that maybe somebody could stay here when he comes in that frame of consciousness? Prabhupāda: No, no, it is . . . not that. It should be now restricted. Not that anyone comes and whimsically goes away. This should be restricted. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These devotees just create a disturbance, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They don't want to be engaged, and everybody copies them and the whole atmosphere gets . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Akṣayānanda: A lot of devotees think . . . they come here . . . "Therefore work is not necessary. Simply chanting and being in Vṛndāvana is nice." That's wrong. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Chanting, but there is expenditure. Who will collect this twenty*-five thousand? It is increasing. Akṣayānanda: We have one kitchen, as you said . . . *Prabhupāda: I can maintain them, provided they are actually serious about making progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not that some lazy fellow will come, and because he has come to Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa*-candra has become very much obliged to him. Kṛṣṇa-candra had no other friend. He has come from somebody. That mentality should be curtailed. Harikeśa: What if he comes with money to pay for himself. Prabhupāda: Is there a guesthouse? Stay. There is no harm. There is guesthouse, he can pay and stay. But here we shall keep only minimum number of men without whom we cannot make . . . manage it. That's all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, how it is possible? Who will bring twenty*-five thousand per month? I'm surprised. Twenty-five . . . Pacchis hazar. (Twenty-five thousand.) Akṣayānanda: It's much more. Sometimes thirty. *Prabhupāda: So this must be stopped immediately. We cannot pay more than five thousand. You stop. We cannot pay. Ye hona chahiye. Ye hona chahiye. Ye kya adda*-khana hai kya? (This has to be ensured. This must be ensured. Is this a place for having picnics?) My Guru Mahārāja used to say, Khawa-dawar adda-khana. (Eating and drinking club) "Joint mess." This is not possible, that we have to maintain a big bundle of burden. What is this? Akṣayānanda: But still, we have to welcome anyone who comes. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-five thousand, thirty thousand per month? What is this? Where is that temple in Vṛndāvana who is spending twenty-five thousand, thirty thousand? Can you say any temple? Bhagatjī: Not more than five thousand. Prabhupāda: That's it. So we cannot pay more than five thousand. Akṣayānanda: For eating? Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Then clothing is more? Clothing is more? Maintenance? Prabhupāda: No, everything. Hundred rupees per head. You do not require to collect. I shall pay five thousand. Harikeśa: Then there should be a budget here. Prabhupāda: Budget is there. Hundred rupees per head. Fifty men if you keep, it is five thousand. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can keep less. We don't want fifty. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. It will be less. But I'm prepared to pay you five thousand rupees for fifty men. Not more than that. That I can pay. You do not require to collect. You sit down, but work hard here. Not that eating, sleeping. No. That cannot be. That cannot be done. They must be engaged twenty*-four hours. That is wanted. It is not a lazy, a free hotel. Anyone lives, he must be engaged twenty-four hours. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). If he has no work, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa here. That should be done. *Akṣayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We have the twenty*-four hour kīrtana. I've requested everyone who comes to do at least one hour per day. Prabhupāda: There is no question. This is the condition. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I've made it a rule. *Prabhupāda: If you agree, then stay here. Otherwise, you go to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. Akṣayānanda: Also visiting devotees should do that too. Anyone who comes here should do that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone. Prabhupāda: You must make a rule. Akṣayānanda: At least one hour in the temple. Prabhupāda: Why one hour? Four hours. Four hours. Four times. Morning, evening, night, morning again. Akṣayānanda: Already the rule is made . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, already rules are . . . just like to continue kīrtana there must be four batches. Akṣayānanda: Yes, four men I have . . . Prabhupāda: Four batches. That means six hours, four. Three hours. Three hours, not four hours. So one batch four hours. From morning six to nine. Another batch from nine to twelve. Another batch twelve to three. Another batch three to six. Again the morning batch six to . . . *Akṣayānanda: Eight different batches, that makes a total of thirty*-two. *Prabhupāda: That's all. Not . . . why thirty*-two? Twice one batch. One batch attending once in the morning, once in the evening. *Bhagatjī: Sixteen. Solah admi. Char*-char admi ek batch me. Char batch banaye apne. Solah ho gaye. (Sixteen men. Four men will be there in one batch. You made four batches. So the total becomes sixteen.) Prabhupāda: So then if there is fifty men, we cannot spare sixteen men? Akṣayānanda: Very nice. Prabhupāda: Everything is nice. Only to be managed. Akṣayānanda: Yes, it has to be done. Prabhupāda: Only to be managed. So I am prepared, I'll pay you. Even if you have no money I'll pay you five thousand. Keep fifty men. Akṣayānanda: I don't think it's necessary for you to pay. Prabhupāda: So if necessary, I'm prepared. That's all right. Akṣayānanda: No, it's not necessary. Prabhupāda: Then thank you. That is another thing. But fifty men you can keep. Fifty men you can keep. And there is collection in the box. There is collection by prasādam, so many other things. Bhagatjī: And the altars. *Prabhupāda: So that should be engaged fully in Deity worship. Not extravagant. That I shall see. I shall remain here, how things are going on. I shall manage myself. I shall see how things are going on. So anyway, fifty men, five thousand. No more twenty*-five thousand. Forget. No more twenty-five. Harikeśa: That's three rupees a day. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Three point thirty*-three. Haṁsadūta: If it's three rupees, thirty paisa a day for eating, soap and toothpaste . . . *Prabhupāda: No soap. Take this Rādhā*-kuṇḍa's . . . why soap? You are so devotee of Rādhā-kuṇḍa, why you require soap? This is nonsense. You take earth from the Rādhā-kuṇḍa or Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana-dhūli. Why you require soap? Bhagatjī: Pundrah saal ho gaye, maine aj tak sabun nahi lagaya. (Fifteen years have passed but I have never used soap until today.) *Prabhupāda: Radha*-kunda wo jane wala hai aur sabun! Hum bol raha hai jo Radha-kund jane wala aur chahiye sabun! Lijiye. Ye bevakuf Radha-kund me jane wala hai. Ye narak-kund me jane wala hai. Jo narak-kund jata hai uske liye sabun zarurat hai. Radha-kund jane wala ko sabun kya zarurat . . . (indistinct) . . . (He is going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa but he requires soap. My point is that he needs soap for going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa? Just see. This fool is planning to visit Rādhā-kuṇḍa. He will go to hell-kuṇḍa. Those who go to hell-kuṇḍa require soap for bathing. What is the use of soap for someone going to Rādhā-kuṇḍa . . . (indistinct) . . .) Nim datun ? I was doing nim datun until the teeth fell down. You will know that I was collecting nim . But now it is impossible. That also I have manufactured my own toothpaste. I purchase only the brush, and I made my toothpaste at home. I never used any toothpaste. Even in my young days, I never used. You have seen it practically. Not only that now I have become sannyāsī . When I was gṛhastha I never used. When I was gṛhastha I was using that nim datun regularly. Akṣayānanda: So we'll do, definitely. Prabhupāda: And I can give you the paste. Akṣayānanda: The recipe. Prabhupāda: So if you cannot use nim datun, you can use this paste. Very simple. Bhagatji: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kyu, batayenge kyu? Batayenge nahi. Wo humara secret hai. (laughter) So ye aisa karo ki bas ab ye sab . . . aur ye sab jo formula hai, jo manage kar sakega wo manager. (Why should I tell you? I am not going to tell you. It is my secret. (laughter) So do this then everything . . . and all these formulas, one who successfully executes them is a real manager.) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ab ho jayega . . . thik hai. Zarur. Ab ho jayega. Abhi hum log devotee kam kar lenge to ye sab . . . bahar ka koi rehne nahi denge kyuki bahar ka bahut log ate hai, kaam nahi karte. Ab ho jayega. (Now it will be done. Definitely. It will be done. We will now reduce the number of devotee . . . we will not let any outsider stay in the āśrama because then there are too many people staying here without doing any work.) Prabhupāda: Bahar ka kaun ata hai? (Who are these outsiders?) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotee log ate hai, bahar ke visitors aur zyada kaam nahi karte. Unko bolenge chanting karna hai, kaam karna hai nahi to guest house me raho. Aisa karenge. Brahmachari ashram me jisko bhi rehne ka . . . (Devotees are there as well as other visitors who stay in the āśrama without doing any work. We will tell them to chant daily and render some service or else shift to the guest house. We will implement this. Whoever wants to stay in the brahmacārī āśrama should . . .) Prabhupāda: Bahar ka kaun ata hai? (Who are these outsiders?) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotees, then visiting . . . *Akṣayānanda: One problem is that these devotees who are not serious, we say they cannot stay here. Yet, because they are still attracted to Vṛndāvana, many times they go and find a place outside the temple in Vṛndāvana, and they make a bad example. This problem we cannot solve. Or they go to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa and live. We say: "You cannot stay here because you won't help in some way." Therefore they . . . Prabhupāda: No, cannot stay . . . you can allow three days free. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Three days. Okay. Prabhupāda: You can receive guest for three days. Not permanently. And they can . . . that is very reasonable. If they have come, spending so much to Vṛndāvana, they cannot pay? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They usually have money. Everyone who comes from America, Europe, has some money. Prabhupāda: Then? What is the difficulty? What is the difficulty if they have got money? Bhagatjī: See the shop here. See all the shop, whether they have got money or not. You have opened a canteen here, and you can note from there who has got money. Prabhupāda: No, money they have got. There is no doubt. They are not coming from poor country, either poor. No, we are welcoming, provided he is reasonable. Simply to exploit, that is not good. That is not good. What do you think? In our Indian system, if somebody goes to a sādhu's āśrama , especially gṛhastha , immediately he pays fifty rupees, hundred rupees. He'll not stay more than three days, four days. But he knows, "The sādhu , wherefrom he'll bring money? Take." They are paying without staying. Just like yesterday this man came, and you have seen so many people come. In your country also it is done. That is up to the man's conscience, that "I have come here, so I require to stay. Pay something." But not that . . . that should be properly expended. So anything can be done very nicely provided there is good management. I do not see any difficulty. Karo sab. (Do everything properly.) I am present here. If there is any difficulty, ask me. I shall advise. Bhagatjī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Nahi, wo . . . ye to zarur hona chahiye . . . (No, at least this must be ensured that . . .) Per head hundred rupees is sufficient. Not more than that. Even . . . how many devotees are here now? Akṣayānanda: We have sixty. About sixty. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: More than that. *Akṣayānanda: Sixty, sixty*-three. There are many women over there. Usually there's about sixty. Normally there has been about . . . Prabhupāda: Up to fifty I take charge. I shall pay hundred rupees per head. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't need more than fifty, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because Hyderabad needs devotees. Prabhupāda: If there are more, they can go to other centers. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now we have the farm in Hyderabad. Mahāṁsa's asking for men for the farm, for the temple. They can give . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got the biggest farm. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Six*-hundred-acre farm. Prabhupāda: As we have organized New Vrindavan farm and Philadelphia farm, so the farm was also to be organized by you. That was the contemplation. So six hundred acres of land. Very nice land. Very nice land. Six hundreds, and it is not with . . . (indistinct) . . . like Vṛndāvana, but very fertile land. Harikeśa: It can produce enough food to feed the whole society. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhagatjī: Irrigation system? Prabhupāda: Irrigation? Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda? Do you want me to take care of that scheme still? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That would be best. Prabhupāda: Why not? Haṁsadūta: The thing is, the money that I had put aside for that farm I gave to Mahāṁsa, so he should give it back. Prabhupāda: You should be very much encouraged. Haṁsadūta: No, the money that I put aside to start that farm, to buy some irrigation equipment and so forth—initial investment—I gave it to Mahāṁsa on your order, one lakh of rupees. Prabhupāda: One lakh ? Haṁsadūta: I gave him one lakh . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is for construction, and he's going to give it back. Prabhupāda: No, that is for construction. That is not for the farm. Harikeśa: No, no, that money, I intended to use for the farm. But it took so long to get that farm. So when . . . you said that he should pay it back. Prabhupāda: No, that can be . . . that I guaranteed. That I guaranteed one lakh, that if he does not pay, I shall do it. That guarantee still. Haṁsadūta: Should I develop that scheme there? Prabhupāda: Yes, let us have the farm first of all. I do not know what is the position now. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's coming soon, Mahāṁsa said. So he can develop the farm. *Prabhupāda: So your main business should be mahad*-vicalanaṁ . Calanaṁ vicalanam . Haṁsadūta: It's just that in this one particular problem it would be better, that's all. He has already sent them away. He has already sent a number of men away. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? And they are all the temple devotees. What I'm saying is don't rob men from these temples have to be supported. They're taking away men from the temples, and the temples . . . *Haṁsadūta: I don't want to make a fuss, but right now there are six or seven first*-class men who are working in your temple who are on this party. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Take them all, but still the temple will go on. Prabhupāda: He can take them. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Take them out. Haṁsadūta: That's what I'm afraid, that he's going to . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Your men you take. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I am only requesting you to return the temple devotees which you have stolen. That's all. I don't want men from this party. We will manage it. Just return the temple devotees. Haṁsadūta: There are other men who are . . . (indistinct talking back and forth to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa) Prabhupāda: Yesterday I told him that temple painting is going on . . . who is painting? I never saw. *Bhagatjī: Nau baje se panch baje tak . . . (indistinct) . . . aat ghante . . . (indistinct) . . . nau baje shuru karte hai, wo roti*-woti khake ate hai aur panch baje tak karte hai. (From 9 am to 5 pm . . . (indistinct) . . . 8 hours . . . (indistinct) . . . they take a heavy meal before coming here and start work at 9 am. Then they work till 5 pm.) Prabhupāda: Upar me kaise karte hai? (How are they painting on the top?) Bhagatjī: Upar me tay kar liya, abhi niche ka aap a gaye hai . . . (That we have managed. Now you have come regarding the ground floor . . .) Prabhupāda: Niche kaha kar rahe hai? (Where are they painting on the ground floor?) Bhagatjī: Uss taraf. (On that side.) Prabhupāda: Haa? Uss taraf? (What? On that side?) Bhagatjī: Uss taraf . . . (There . . .) Prabhupāda: Backside me kyu? (Why on the backside?) Bhagatjī: Jaha prasad lete hai . . . (Where we take prasadam . . .) Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.) Akṣayānanda: So we should have one kitchen only. One kitchen? As we had discussed last night. Now we have a Deity kitchen and a devotee kitchen. We also have a guesthouse kitchen. Prabhupāda: Why three? (indistinct comments by Bhagatjī) Akṣayānanda: So the devotee kitchen and Deity kitchen could be made into one. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's decided. Akṣayānanda: Yes. So I'll give you a list of the preparations we'll offer, for your approval. It means we'll be offering less to the Deity. Prabhupāda: What is difficulty? Bhagatjī: . . . un logo ka kharcha . . . (indistinct) . . . garland, sab iska kam se kam solah sau rupaya mahine ka kharcha hai . . . (indistinct) . . . pehle to do hazar tha. Maine unko competition karke panch sau rupaye less karke . . . (their expenditure . . . (indistinct) . . . minimum monthly expenditure for garlands is sixteen hundred rupees . . . (indistinct) . . . it was two thousand initially but I negotiated with them and reduced it by five hundred rupees . . .) Prabhupāda: Solah sau rupaya phool! (Flowers are worth sixteen hundred rupees!) Bhagatjī: Phool, mala, sab itna mahine ka . . . (Flowers, garlands, all together for one month . . .) Prabhupāda: Ye to murkhta hai. Nahi, ye jo pachas rupaya phool . . . ye jo pachas rupaya ka phool . . . (indistinct) . . . deta hai. (This is ridiculous. No, these daily flowers are worth fifty rupees . . . (indistinct) . . . they are giving.) Bhagatjī: . . . me deta hai. Phool lagte hai phool. (. . . they are giving. This many flowers are always required.) *Prabhupāda: Deta hai to Bhagavan ke liye phool liya jaye par ye humara sir me itna phool sajane ka kya zarurat hai. Bhagavan ke liye bas panch saat mala le . . . (Okay, let them purchase for the Deities but why decorate me with so many flowers? For the Deities, you can purchase five to seven garlands . . .) How many Deities are there? Guru*-Gaurāṅga, four; *Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma, two; six, and . . . Akṣayānanda: Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā and the gopīs. Prabhupāda: Ten. So . . . *Akṣayānanda: Chote Radha*-Krishna humare. (Our small Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.) *Prabhupāda: Char Radha*-Krishna, do Krishna-Balarama aur char Guru-Gauranga. (Four Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, two Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma and four Guru-Gaurāṅga.) *Akṣayānanda: And small Deity of Gaura*-Nitāi, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Small deities are small . . . to garland kitna leta hai? (. . . so how much do they take for garlands?) Bhagatjī: Garland ka to . . . mala ke to har ek ka alag alag daam hai. Ek rupaye ki to gulab ki mala . . . (indistinct) . . . ek pichattar paise ki hai, tulsi mala ati hai wo sawa rupaye ki lagti hai. (Each garland has a different price. Rose garland is 1 rupee . . . (indistinct) . . . one is 75 paisa, tulsi garland is 1 rupee and 15 paisa.) Prabhupāda: Nahi, tulsi bhi nahi chahiye, gulab bhi nahi chahiye, aisi chahiye. (No, we neither need a rose garland nor a tulsi garland. This one is good enough.) Bhagatjī: . . . bahut sasti rahegi tab (. . . it will be very cheap then . . .) Prabhupāda: Ha, ek dum sahi . . . (Yes, perfectly fine . . .) Bhagatjī: (laughter) Bhagavan ke liye sugandhit phulo ki mala, malati ki, gulab ki . . . (For the Lord, we can take some fragrant flower garlands like jasmine, rose . . .) Prabhupāda: Kabhi kabhi lena, rozana nahi. (On some days you may take but not daily.) Bhagatjī: Bazar me ye sab phul hum apne aap kar lenge. Aap budget bata dijiye kitna rupaya kharch karna hai. (We will manage this purchasing of flower garlands on our own. Please tell us what your budget is.) Prabhupāda: Nahi, ye mala kitna ka hai? (No, what is the price of this garland?) Bhagatjī: Prabhupāda, ye to bahut sasti hai, ye mala to. (Prabhupāda, this garland is very cheap.) Prabhupāda: Bolo na. (Anyways, you tell me.) *Bhagatjī: Zyada*-zyada ek taka ki mala, pachas paise ki mala hai. (At the most, it will cost 1 rupee or 50 paise.) Prabhupāda: Pachas paisa? (Fifty paisa.) I don't think it is problem . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your idea? (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) . . . the CID is going to our Life Members and harassing them. Akṣayānanda: "Why are you with them? How much are they paying you?" *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are scared of becoming our members now. Even in Chandigarh, Caitya*-guru told me your books were on display in one Life Member's stores—he has two stores—and CID went to him and said: "Why are you displaying these books? What's your connection? Why're you helping Hare Kṛṣṇa?" Prabhupāda: So selling books is illegal? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but they are just suspecting, they're so suspicious. Prabhupāda: What is that suspicious? We have got books. We are selling. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They . . . you know, because of those . . . now we can defeat them, because of that meeting with Defense Minister. . . . (indistinct) . . . but point is . . . Prabhupāda: Book sell karna ye koi crime hai kya? (Is book selling a crime?) Bhagatjī: Ha sab, ye koi crime nahi hai. (Yes, this is not at all a crime.) Prabhupāda: Ek admi humse kitab le . . . (If someone is taking a book from us . . .) Akṣayānanda: They just harass us. They don't do any action. They just keep bothering us. Indian man: Two CID inspectors came to my house. And they said they have got so many things in their basements. So I told, "You have come without informing me, and I was not informed them. So please come to me one day and decide what is it. You come back. You come with me." I took and I showed . . . Prabhupāda: Kya bola? (What did you say?) Indian man: Sir, I showed everything. Prabhupāda: Wo hum log ke against me bada . . . (They are creating a big challenge for us . . .) Indian man: (indistinct Hindi) . . . "You want to help me to go to materialism? . . . (indistinct) . . . they are not CIDs, they're not even anything. They are simply devotees. They have come from foreign country and they are . . ." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, the living is simple, then they will see, yes, that's simple . . . Prabhupāda: And where is the car you have purchased? Akṣayānanda: It's in Indore now. Indian man: Indian car. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Akṣayānanda: Madhya Pradesh. I put one brahmacārī in charge of it. Prabhupāda: They are using? Akṣayānanda: Yes, very well. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're preaching. Akṣayānanda: Very good boys looking after. Indian man: Dono chiz bahut labh ki hai saheb. Motorcycle hai court jane ke liye, bahar ke cooks lane ke liye, kisi ko bulane ke liye . . . (Both the things are very useful. The motorcycle is used for going to court, to bring cooks from the outside, call someone . . .) Prabhupāda: Ye thik hai. (That's alright.) Akṣayānanda: It's a very good car, Prabhupāda. Jaya . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Utsah hona chahiye. Hum log . . . ye to ek hi din me success nahi bana. Bada dhairya . . . ek dedh baras rasta rasta me ghuma aur wo visa department renew karte, (There has to be enthusiasm. We did not become successful in one day. Lots of patience . . . for one and a half years I had to roam around in the streets and the visa department would renew,) ten dollars. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Canada you had problem. I remember when you came to Montreal in '68. Prabhupāda: Oh, you did not know. Canada, I had very little problem. US, it was always problem. Rather, Canada helped me. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Immigration you got. Prabhupāda: Canada, I immediately I got immigration in Canada. Then I got some standing, that "Never mind, I have got now immigration in Canada. It will be easier from Canada to go to USA." Then again I tried for USA. And it was obtained within three months, and spending only within hundred dollars. And there, in America, they were spending each time $150, the lawyer was taking. He was phoning, "Will you please send $150 for this expense?" And how many times he has taken I do not know. They were paying. Rāyarāma was at that time chief man. He immediately . . . this was going on. Then when I came to Canada . . . first of all, I made my position secure that, "Let me have Canadian immigration." So Canadian immigration I got very soon. I think within two months. Then I applied for USA immigration. So US immigration I got within three months. And I paid, I think, within hundred dollars. So . . . you know. When I came to Montreal? Harikeśa: Very easy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You went for the interview with the US Consulate in Montreal before you got your green card for America. Prabhupāda: No, no. In Montreal went . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you came from Vancouver . . . from Seattle. Harikeśa: You came from Vancouver. You had an interview with one gentleman. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: With Shasti*-mani. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there was hard struggle. It is not that so easy for . . . in 1965 to '66, 66, 67, regular hard struggle. Haṁsadūta: Yes, I know that's a crisis. *Prabhupāda: You know that. Hard struggle. So Kṛṣṇa gave us some facilities. Now we have got some framework. Do it very cautiously. Unnecessarily exhausting what we . . . sato vṛtteḥ sādhu*-saṅge . That is Rūpa Gosvāmī's line. We should be very honest and live with sādhu , those who are devotees. Tāṅdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās . First of all our mission should be how to serve the Gosvāmīs. You cannot act independently. Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . *That should be our prayer. "When Rūpa Gosvāmī, who has established the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when I shall get shelter of his lotus feet?" And that is . . . Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura prays, tāṅdera caraṇa*-sebi . Tāṅdera means the six Gosvāmīs . Ei chay gosāi yāṅr tāṅr mui dās . "I'm servant of that person who is engaged in the service of the six Gosvāmīs." And we pray to our Guru Mahārāja, rūpānuga-viruddhāpasiddhānta-dhvānta-hāriṇe . Anyone who is going against the decision of Rūpa Gosvāmī, reject him. Rūpānuga-viruddhāpasiddhānta-dhvānta . This is our process. Ei chay gosāi yāṅr . *Who will understand Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's loving affairs unless one has gone really through the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī? Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa loving affairs is not so easy. Rādhā-kuṇḍa is not so easy that by force I go to Rādhā-kuṇḍa, I become a candidate. *Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is hankering, "When I shall understand about Rādhā*-kuṇḍa, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's prema ?" Such liberated great devotees, ācāryas , they are hankering. Rūpa-raghunātha-pade hoibe ākuti , kabe hāma bujhabo . "When I shall understand?" And they have understood immediately everything. Sab janta Lawrence. (The all-knowing Mr. Lawrence.) That is solved. Not so easy. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us the facility. *That is the special verse. It is not very easy thing. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Don't take things very easily. Things are very serious. Therefore we have to go step by step. That is, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, tāṅdera saṅge . Aim should be how to serve Rūpa*-Raghunātha, Rūpa-Raghunātha. And bhakta-sane bās , pure devotee, to stay with pure devotee who has no other intention. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). This is the process. So do it carefully. That's all. Devotees: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) In the morning we shall go to take my milk from the booth. I'll go early so that I may take the first. Then come back, then take my bath early in the morning. I did not take hot water. Cold water. Even in severe winter. Hmm, then? *Harikeśa: And one boy called Rādhā*-Dāmodara dāsa from New . . . did I mention this, or . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- September 6, 1976, Vrndavana *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's bhakti*-nitya-siddha is already there. Otherwise it was not possible to become so successful in the foreign countries. They are not fools, accepting something bogus. Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa consciousness has succeeded amongst all kinds of religions. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: It's succeeded amongst all kinds of religions, amongst all kinds of nations. Prabhupāda: Everything. Harikeśa: All kinds of economic systems. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat ( BG 7.7): "There is nothing greater than Me." How anything can exceed Kṛṣṇa? That's all. You present Kṛṣṇa right, then Kṛṣṇa will exceed anything—any department of knowledge, any department of activity. Anything. Supreme, parataram . Para*-taram. Tara is used—superlative. If our men become serious to distribute . . . of course, it is not possible that the whole world will be Kṛṣṇa conscious, but at least they will know that there is such a thing. I may know at least there is diamond. I may not be able to purchase. That everyone can know: there is a very valuable jewel. Even though he has not seen it, still he'll appreciate that there is a very valuable jewel known as diamond. That much will also help. When he has got money, he can purchase it. (break) Because gentleman will come you have to break this wall. What is this nonsense? Akṣayānanda: Yes, actually I didn't want it broken. Prabhupāda: You didn't know, but it is going on. Akṣayānanda: Now they have to finish. Prabhupāda: Any rascal comes, he gives some order. This is the difficulty. Akṣayānanda: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: Any rascal comes, he's a third*-class man, he gives some idea. Akṣayānanda: I'm going to get this work finished today, definitely. Prabhupāda: He has no position; *he is third*-class man. He has given some idea, "Here, you break it." That is the nature. And how long this work will continue? Throughout the whole life? Akṣayānanda: No. I'm going to finish it today. Prabhupāda: You say no, but it is going on. You simply say "No," "Yes," "No," "Very good." That's all. Akṣayānanda: When I go away and I come back and the wall is broken, what can I do? Prabhupāda: Don't go. Akṣayānanda: That's right. Prabhupāda: You don't manufacture idea. Don't allow others to manufacture ideas. Akṣayānanda: Right, right. Prabhupāda: Simply manufacturing idea. Akṣayānanda: I understand. Prabhupāda: In Bombay also they have manufactured idea. One hole, one lift. There is no need, and you have manufactured some idea. Very expert in manufacturing nonsense ideas. Hari-śauri: The thing is how to distinguish between what's a good idea . . . Prabhupāda: You have to take ideas from your guru . Akṣayānanda: From intelligence. *Prabhupāda: Therefore gurum evābhigacchet . Why do you manufacture yourself? Consult the authorities, then do it. That is intelligence. Why do you think that you are very intelligent? That is materialism. The more you remain that, "I am a fool," that is good. And as soon as you become over*-intelligent, then, that's finished. So Europeans, Americans, they are over-intelligent. They have intelligence, over-intelligence. Unnecessarily. They manufacture a machine for shaving: gow-gow-gow-gow-gow-gow . (makes machine sound). (laughter) And they have wasted so much time. So much time. But people like it. Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda, if we don't use soap, the question has come up, how to wash the clothes? How to wash the cloth? If you do not use any soap, the question has come up, how to wash the cloth? By beating only? Sufficient? Prabhupāda: For washing cloth you require soap. But does not . . . you require everything, but because you are spending without any sense . . . so I calculated yesterday the whole thing, Deity worship, Deity pūjā , will require five hundred rupees per month. Akṣayānanda: I had requested for the flowers . . . Viśvambhara said twelve rupees you had decided last night. Prabhupāda: Twelve rupees, thirteen rupees . . . Akṣayānanda: Twelve, thirteen. Actually today, I wanted for today, but the flower man was not able to . . . we could not catch him in time. But from tomorrow it will start, definitely. Prabhupāda: The thing is that one who is cheating you, he will cheat in twelve rupees, also he will cheat in fifty rupees. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: He knows how to cheat you. Akṣayānanda: Yes, they're expert. Prabhupāda: Where do they get flowers? Akṣayānanda: There are two flower men. They come here from Bankebehari. Now Viśvambhara has made two, because they make a competition between each other, and therefore they keep down. But . . . Prabhupāda: Nobody is honest. Akṣayānanda: But still old flowers are coming. Still old flowers are coming. We're getting cheap, but old ones are coming. Brown flowers, old ones are coming. It's just by experience, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where they get flower? Akṣayānanda: Wherefrom? The actual flower men? I don't know. Prabhupāda: In the market the flowers are not sold? Akṣayānanda: I don't know. Viśvambhara said that this was the best. Viśvambhara is very expert. He's supremely expert at catching these cheaters. But even he gets cheated sometimes. Even things go by and he doesn't notice. He's very, very expert. If I ever get to be as expert as him, then maybe something good will happen. But even he is also being cheated sometimes. Prabhupāda: Cheating is one of the qualification of the conditioned soul. Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda, Viśvambhara . . . Prabhupāda: Vipralipsa , vipralipsa . Bhrama , pramada , vipralipsa , karaṇāpāṭava . So cheating is a qualification of the conditioned soul. Everyone is expert in cheating, more or less. That is qualification. People take pride, "Oh, I have cheated. I am so expert that I have cheated." When the lawyers make some agreement between the two lawyers, simply think, "How I can cheat you? How can I cheat you?" That's all. The more one lawyer is expert in cheating, he is big lawyer. Hari-śauri: Yes, because their business is to avoid the law. Akṣayānanda: They are called lawyer, but their business is to break the law. Prabhupāda: Yes. The best cheater is the best lawyer. Akṣayānanda: So that means if we become pure then we can avoid being cheated, because we ourselves will not cheat anymore. Prabhupāda: No, this world is full of cheaters. We have to live with them. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret . You also have to become better cheater. That is wanted. Otherwise, you cannot exist. Akṣayānanda: But we have to cheat for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Do everything for Kṛṣṇa, that is all right. But this world, if you become simple and the whole world is full of cheaters, then you suffer. Akṣayānanda: You lose always. *Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to know and protect yourself from the cheaters. So sometimes we have to become a bigger cheater. This is the world. Vañcaka*-vañcī . Whole world is going on, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, that one is cheater, another is cheated. Hari-śauri: There's a saying in English . . . what is it? "Set a thief to catch a thief." The purport is that you have to think like a thief, then you can catch him, you can know what he's doing. Prabhupāda: Set a fish? Hari-śauri: Set a thief to catch a thief. Prabhupāda: Thief, oh, yes. You can reply him . . . (break) Those who are actually serious to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are welcome. *Akṣayānanda: Pāpī*-tāpī jata chilo . *Prabhupāda: Yes. If he's serious to become free from this material world and go back to home, back to . . . you welcome him. We don't make any discrimination. Ābāla*-vṛddha-vanitā . Bāla means children, vṛddha means old man, and vanitā means woman. They are most helpless. Ābāla-vṛddha-vanitā. Vanitā . Beginning from the child up to the old man, and . . . but coming here, if they plan for sense gratification, that is very dangerous. Come here, stay with us. We shall somehow or other provide him with prasādam and place. But be advanced. And the simple method is recommended: Very simple thing. Yasyāṁ vai śrūyamāṇāyām . Simply hear *Bhāgavatam* . And actually if anyone seriously reads *Bhāgavatam* , he'll become saintly, no doubt about it. Akṣayānanda: Your Bhāgavata . There are no others actually. Prabhupāda: Vyāsadeva, the words of Vyāsadeva, I am simply trying to explain, that's all. Akṣayānanda: No one else is trying. No one else has done it. Prabhupāda: It is due to the blessing of my Guru Mahārāja. He directly told me that "If you get some money, publish some books." I took it seriously, so he's helping me. All our Godbrothers, they didn't take it. Did not know it, neither . . . even they . . . they know it. Because from the very beginning, Guru Mahārāja was serious about publication. He started press and published these books. This Bhāgavata was published by him. And the journal, six journals, he was very much fond of publishing, publication. Very, very. He told me directly that, "If it was possible to get the marbles from this Gauḍīya Maṭha and sell it and convert it into books, I would have done it. Because I know there will be blazing fire in this place." (break) . . . books. Akṣayānanda: Yeah, I know. Prabhupāda: And by Kṛṣṇa's grace, by selling books we are getting. This is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise . . . this Bon Mahārāja is so proud of his institution. He could not do this. He could have done it. For the last forty years. *Akṣayānanda: He does not speak kṛṣṇa*-kathā , Prabhupāda. So five thousand you have estimated for the Deities? Five thousand. For a month you have estimated last night five thousand? Prabhupāda: Five hundred. Akṣayānanda: Five hundred. For all . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For a month? Akṣayānanda: With Viśvambhara you had discussed? Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Then I'll talk to him now. Prabhupāda: Just like we were going to, in the evening . . . don't divert attention. In the evening we have estimated four plates. Each plate, eight purīs. Akṣayānanda: Six plates. *Prabhupāda: Six plates. Six plates, eight purīs , means forty*-eight purīs . Forty-eight purīs , Viśvambhara calculated the atta and ghee . Akṣayānanda: Yes, you already made that estimate. Prabhupāda: Two rupees. Atta and ghee , two rupees. Then other preparation, another two rupees. Akṣayānanda: He'll tell me everything, Prabhupāda. No need to . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, why don't you hear? Akṣayānanda: I'm sorry. Prabhupāda: You are hearing now. Four rupees to prepare all the plates. Four rupees, say five rupees. So five rupees, monthly 150 rupees. So we are offering four times. So 150 rupees four times. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Six hundred rupees. Prabhupāda: Six hundred rupees. So take another four hundred rupees, make one thousand. It should not go more than five hundred to one thousand. You spend it. Harikeśa: But milk, when you cook down milk to make a sweet . . . Prabhupāda: I have taken from six hundred to one thousand. All the maintenance. Akṣayānanda: I will take every item with Viśvambhara, every single item. Prabhupāda: You don't believe me? Akṣayānanda: I can't understand. My intelligence is not great enough to understand it. I believe you, but I have to do it, that's all. Prabhupāda: It cannot go more than one thousand. Akṣayānanda: I can't quite grasp it, Prabhupāda. But you say it can't go above five hundred, so that'll be it. Prabhupāda: No, no. Five hundred, that is rough calculation. But we add another five hundred, if there is any mistake or any error and omission. Therefore I have added another five hundred. Akṣayānanda: That means a thousand. Prabhupāda: Thousand. That is sufficient. Akṣayānanda: Maximum. Prabhupāda: Maximum. And you were speaking 9,000. Akṣayānanda: This is for food. Food only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It is for Deity messing. Akṣayānanda: Deity food only. Yes. Prabhupāda: So I am speaking of the Deity, not for all. For all others, hundred rupees per head, five thousand rupees. Here purī , kachorīs , and other things, all the best things. But general is not for purī , kachorī , and . . . they are general food. We are not going to supply purī , kachorī , halavā to everyone. Akṣayānanda: No, never. Never have. Prabhupāda: Only for the Deity. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Others are just dāl , sabjī , rice, cāpāṭi . Prabhupāda: Everything. Everything calculated. Akṣayānanda: I believe you, Prabhupāda. But to make it practical I want to see every item. The cost, the weight and everything. Prabhupāda: It is already calculated. Akṣayānanda: Then I can do it. Then we can do it. Prabhupāda: It is already calculated. I calculated, not with a fool, with an experienced man. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have one other question regarding . . . we are going to observe very strict policies. Unless somebody is working, he cannot stay in the temple. If some other tourist devotee comes from some other center, he can only stay for three days. But beyond that he should either pay or he should go and preach or do something else. Akṣayānanda: Like some service. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What should we do with . . . like there's some sannyāsīs here, like Yaśodānandana Swami and his party. I hear they're going to stay for the whole month. They're already here since two weeks. They're occupying two rooms, everything. They're going to stay here till the end of the month. Akṣayānanda: Get him to go and preach for Vṛndāvana. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The only reason I'm talking this is because now it's really tight. We can't take . . . they have air*-conditioned room . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, they should go and preach and bring some collection. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're just relaxed, resting for a month. Akṣayānanda: A month is too long, Prabhupāda said. Prabhupāda said three days a sannyāsī should stay, and then he should go and travel. The wheels should be turning. I'll talk to him. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because this just adds up. A ten*-people party staying here for a month . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, they've always come, so there must be some control. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Few men are here from Haṁsadūta's party who eat with us. All this just adds up, then our budget cannot be maintained. Akṣayānanda: I'll preach to him. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Air*-conditioned room. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. They're our men. Harikeśa: Yes. It's required. If anyone's ever done a big preaching program, he cannot . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But one month . . . Akṣayānanda: A month is a long time. Maybe a week. But a month . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Week is sufficient. One month is too much. That is laziness. Akṣayānanda: Residential. Laziness. Prabhupāda: So he was preaching in the South India, so why he came here? There was no resting place? Harikeśa: He came here . . . actually, they're going north soon. They're going to be in Chandigarh when we're in Chandigarh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is six weeks from now. Harikeśa: That's all right. They're also going north and preaching, and he's having a very hard time getting his financial position down. And he has no men. Two, three, four men. He's having . . . Prabhupāda: How he'll return my fifteen thousand? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That Mahāṁsa has taken. Prabhupāda: I do not know Mahāṁsa has taken. He has to return it. Harikeśa: He never got it. And he wanted to join with Haṁsadūta, do some type of . . . (indistinct) . . . he's not in a very easy position right now. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He could become a part of Vṛndāvana and take a team out of Vṛndāvana. Akṣayānanda: I always wanted Vṛndāvana should have one bus. That is to say, if there is not too much endeavor to get one bus. There's so many buses are floating are through the air. Why could Vṛndāvana not have one bus? In that way they can always be just like Kīrtanānanda Swami. There is always saṅkīrtana going and coming, going and coming. And the same people . . . Prabhupāda: Ānanda Swami? Akṣayānanda: Kīrtanānanda, in New Vṛndāvana. All his people, they must go out and do kīrtana and distribute books. They must. Everybody does it. In that way the . . . I'm told this, anyway. In that way the devotees are enlivened, and they don't become restless in the temple. Then the same ones . . . it's our bus, and they will come back to our temple. So we will not lose too many good devotees because they will not be attracted to go away on others'. So if we had one bus . . . Yaśodānandana Mahārāja, I will discuss with him. I already have. I'll just try to discuss it more. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurudāsa Swami is coming to Vṛndāvana with a bus. He said he's going to give it to Vṛndāvana. Akṣayānanda: And there's no need for me to go out. There's so many nice sannyāsīs . So many big preachers and so many buses. So if we just try it. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Īśvara*-candra prabhu has come from Mathurā. (break) Prabhupāda: When you will come to preach something? You take it from me. *Īśvara*-candra: Last one and a half year I'm trying for something in Mathurā, but I'm . . . Prabhupāda: You are trying in your own way. But Kṛṣṇa does not like that program. You can manufacture your something, idea, but Kṛṣṇa will allow or not. I tell you. This is practical. You are a qualified man, foreign educated man, and you have come back for the last one and a half years, still you are in nothing. It is surprising. That means Kṛṣṇa does not want you to do that something. You take it from me. These boys have come because they found, outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness, life is nothing. That's a fact. Therefore they are sticking to this. They knew it very well, that outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness the whole world was vacant, "Nothing for us." That is a fact. Therefore they have got something here. They are not foolish rascals they're sticking for nothing. There is something. It's a fact. So for nothing, "Oh, we have suffered." And come to something, if you want. That's Prāṇava, he is trying for something. He has come also in Vṛndāvana more than one year also. Huh? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Two, three years. Harikeśa: More than that. Three and a half years. *Prabhupāda: And he's trying to do something. The same "something." He was at home, the same woman and same man. And again also here the same woman and man, and trying to do something. But he has no customer. He has only customer how to cheat these Europeans and Americans. Surmā (kohl) merchant. As if surmā is not available in the market. And he advertises "This is my special formula, and this is this, this is this. You take it and give me five hundred rupees and go away." He cannot sell outside. Otherwise, why he's sticking to Vṛndāvana? Thinking "The fools and rascals, the Americans are. I shall introduce." Kyu thik bola? Ye unka kaam chal raha hai. Humara to apna nahi hai je American ko cheat karke . . . (indistinct) . . . banaunga . . . (So, am I correct? This is going on. Our aim is not to cheat the Americans . . . (indistinct) . . .) That this material world has become nothing. You come to something now. Idhar raat me raho, jo kamra . . . (indistinct) . . . wo kamra de denge aur lo Bhagavan ka prasad, daal*-roti mil jayega khana, kaam karo. Kyu lehsun khate ho sab? Kya labh? . . . (Stay here tonight, that room . . . (indistinct) . . . will be provided for you, take the Lord's prasādam , chapati and dāl and work nicely. Why consume onion and garlic? What's the use?) If anyone wants to go to Bhagavān, then he has to make this material world voluntarily nothing. Niṣkiñcanasya . Niṣkiñcana means nothing. You understand, you translate. You know the meaning of niṣkiñcana . Kiñcana means "something," and niḥ means "not." Then nothing. So one who has made this material world as nothing. How it is made? Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Because with this something, as soon as one will stick to this something, he'll suffer. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because he has accepted this rascal situation, asat. Asat means either temporary or bad. Asat . Tum to translate karte ho. Asat ka arth kya hota hai? (You can translate. What's the meaning of asat ?) Temporary or useless. So this material world is . . . temporary, we can know it is. But it is useless, that we do not know. Therefore we struggle. "Let me go. Let me fight, fight, fight, fight." That is māyā . Gadha ko jaise ghas dikhata hai. (Just like they show grass to a donkey.) You know that? A man is sitting on the ass. And his hand just on the front of the gādhā , ass, he's putting some grass. And the gādhā is thinking, "I will eat this grass," so he's going forward. But the grass is also going forward. This is very instructive. The grass is, say, one feet above his head, and the man is sitting on his back. But because this gādhā does not know that "Actually, this man is sitting on my . . . as soon as I go forward, the grass also goes forward." But because he's ass, he does not know. He thinks that, "If I go a little forward I'll get the grass." But he has no knowledge that the arrangement is so made that as you go forward the grass also goes forward. Another example is that meerage. Myrage? There is no water. Harikeśa: Mirage. Prabhupāda: Mirage. There is no water; *it appears there is water. And the animal goes forward and it goes forward, it goes forward. So this material world is like that. Ask anybody, any so*-called successful. Unless he's an ass, nobody will say that this is very comfortable. So best thing is to become niṣkiñcana . Niṣkiñcanasya bhāgavata-bhajana . . . this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. Bhāgavata-bhajana means niṣkiñcana . You make nothing this material world. That is real Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so long I'll make this material world something, then I'll suffer. Best thing is make it . . . just like Draupadī. Draupadī, when she was grabbed in the assembly and Duryodhana and Karṇa wanted to make her naked . . . so generally woman, if you try to make her naked she'll try to save herself. So she was trying to save herself, and when she thought, "There is no way. My husbands are here. They are not helping, and . . . so cloth is being supplied by Kṛṣṇa, but how long I shall?" No, before Kṛṣṇa helping, she was trying to help herself. But when she found that it is not possible, then (s)he did not try to save the cloth. (S)he said: "Kṛṣṇa, save me!" Two arms. You have seen the picture. And then Kṛṣṇa supplied cloth. So it is, "Go on, yes, Duḥśāsana, you go on. You try to make her naked. I'll supply." *So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, that one should, if one is serious about bhagavad*-bhajana , he should take it, whole material world, as nothing. Sometimes I think, "I made nothing this material world, and again retired in Vṛndāvana. Again, Kṛṣṇa, you have given so many things. What is the purpose?" At that time, I remember Rūpa Gosvāmī's instruction, "This is not mine. This is Kṛṣṇa's." Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgya . We are exerting so much energy to construct a temple, but as soon as we become implicated, "Now I have got this big building. Let me live very comfortably," then it is very dangerous. So long we work for Kṛṣṇa, it is Kṛṣṇa's, I am still nothing. And as soon as I take it, "Oh, now I have got very good, comfortable place. Make me again something," (laughs) take that as dangerous. Otherwise, there is no danger. Therefore we have to be engaged always in Kṛṣṇa's service. Not that, "Because we have got this nice building and income also, let us now sit down and eat." Then you'll stop. You shall have to be engaged always. Because our brain is materialistic, as soon as there is little chance of utilizing for sense gratification, mind: "Yes, yes. Do it." Still, we have to do it. *Rūpa Gosvāmī. Hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ . Things which are connected with Kṛṣṇa, you should never think it that it is material. It is spiritual. . . . Samajh me aya hai to ye sab nothing ko choro. Uska . . . (indistinct) . . . nothing jab hai to nothing hi kar do . . . "Ar na re baap!" (. . . if you have really understood, then give up all these things. Since your . . . (indistinct) . . . has ultimately come to nothing then leave that thing for good . . . "Not any more!",) Jagāi-Mādhāi . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him that, "You make this nothing, this sinful activity. Then I accept you." They promised, "Yes." That's all . . . (indistinct) . . . sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyaḥ (BG 18.66)." Kya ambition hai life me? (What is your ambition in life?) What is your ambition? Hmm? What is the ambition? *Īśvara*-candra: Nothing is there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Then again nothing? There must be something. Why you are sticking to that company? There must be some ambition. *Īśvara*-candra: I want to take care of my family what . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: So how you can take care with nothing? If Kṛṣṇa makes you nothing, then how you can take care of your family? Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nārtasya ca . . . (SB 7.9.19). These things I have explained, that we have got so many means against struggle for existence, but that is not final. Tāvat tanu*-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām . If there is no sanction from Kṛṣṇa, you cannot do it. It is impossible. If Kṛṣṇa does not like you to be implicated in that way, that is false, then how can you do it? You are thinking that "I shall take care of my family." But if Kṛṣṇa wants that you cannot take care of your family, then how you'll do it? Can you go against the will of Kṛṣṇa? You can understand at least this, if not very much advanced. You cannot go against the will of Kṛṣṇa. So you have tried for the last one and a half years, you could not improve your material situation. That means you are going against the will of Kṛṣṇa. Take it from me. Kitne bacche hai? (How many children do you have?) *Īśvara*-candra: I have four. Prabhupāda: Four. To jitne bacche idhar hai, usko do roti milta hai, dudh milta hai. Hum log bhi de sakte hai. Usme kya hai? (So all these kids here get milk and chapati daily. We can also provide. Where is the difficulty?) Separate. No more together. Phir panchva baccha ho jayega. (Then the fifth child will be born. Stop this. (Ajkal to government bhi mana karta hai. (Nowadays even the Government is forbidding people from having many children.) *Īśvara*-candra: What can I do? (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). Everything is discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Kṛpaṇa , brāhmaṇa , kṛpaṇa , tṛpyanti neha . He knows that "One bāccā has given me so much trouble." Illicit or legal, . . . jo kuch hoye (. . . whatever is the case.) It is troublesome business. Otherwise, why these Americans and Europeans, they're killing their own child? They don't want to take the botheration. Abhi to India me waha tak pahucha nahi. Aste aste pahuch jayega. Ab to shuru ho gaya, zabardasti. To . . . (In India, things have not deteriorated to such a low level but it won't take long. It has already been started by force.) So it is botheration, there is no doubt about it. The Bhāgavata says, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ . The kṛpaṇa . . . Jo kripana hota hai. Kripana ka artha hota hai . . . (One who is a miser. The meaning of kṛpaṇa is . . .) What is the meaning of kṛpaṇa ? Do you know? Miser. Miser, what is the meaning of miser? *Īśvara*-candra: He's got something but he doesn't want to . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got this something, human form of body, to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Instead of doing that, in spite of possessing this something, I am utilizing it for sense gratification. If you want sense gratification that's all right. Get one child, two child. Why again and again? Therefore śāstra says, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ (SB 7.9.45). Because he's kṛpaṇa , he's never satisfied. He's suffering—again, another child, again, another child. All right, you have got two child, one child, that's all right. Be satisfied. Why again and again? So kṛpaṇa . Kṛpaṇa , he does not know how to utilize this asset of human life. He's wasting the asset in a different way. Kṛpaṇa . One has to become brāhmaṇa . The opposite word of kṛpaṇa is brāhmaṇa. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). That is wanted. So we are giving brāhmaṇa's position. Instead of taking the brāhmaṇa position, if he wants to take again kṛpaṇa position, then what is the use of being initiated? All these great sages, saintly person, who were they? They were all brāhmaṇas . Brāhmaṇa . Śukadeva Gosvāmī is always addressed Brahman. Is it not? This is brāhmaṇa's business. It is not the kṛpaṇa's business. Kṛpaṇa's business means he does not know how to utilize the asset. *So Jab aya hai . . . (When you have come . . .) it is my duty to speak the truth. So now you can do whatever you like . . . give him prasādam . (break) . . . these words, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ . They have been described, it is just like . . . of course, it is very difficult, this itching. We have got practical experience. When there is some itching, we cannot stop it. We cannot stop it. Even if I do not want it, still . . . so it is like itching. Nothing more. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). The tapasya means how to control this itching sensation. This is tapasya . Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). Tapasya means, tapasya begins, now brahmacārī . That is tapasya . Tapasya means brahmacārī . Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena, tyāgena, satya-śaucābhyāṁ yamena niyamena . This is tapasya . It is very strong power, this . . . therefore Bhāgavata said that this power, sex power, is there in the hogs. They have no discrimination between mother, sister, daughter. And simply busy. The example is given. This capacity is there in the hog. Are you hog? How example is given. Do you like to remain like a hog? One should be saintly. Yes. Then where is the difference, I'm a human being? I am treating like hog. Therefore this very example. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujām (SB 5.5.1). This is for the hogs. This hog civilization is going on as human civilization. That is the difficulty. Whole world is hogs and dogs. Big, big United Nation, and what are the assembly? Hogs and dogs. The politicians, as soon as he gets some time for relax, immediately he becomes hogs: go to the hotel, prostitute, and drink and dance. Is it not? All politicians. You become a big hog. That's all. Without becoming politician, a small hog. Because they have got politi . . . big hog. Akṣayānanda: It's terrible. Prabhupāda: So how you can expect prosperity from these big hogs? After all, he's hog. What benefit you can derive from this hogs, assembly of hogs, United Nation? United hogs. You cannot expect. He's hog. Now they're making propaganda for sterilization, and if we advise . . . Akṣayānanda: Yes. I was just thinking about that. Prabhupāda: No, no. If we advise, make a brahmacārī-āśrama from the beginning, they will not take. "What is this nonsense, brahmacārī ?" Akṣayānanda: Is it because they cannot? Do they reject it because they cannot do it? Prabhupāda: They can. They'll not accept the process. They can, everyone. Otherwise why these brahmacārīs ? Akṣayānanda: Otherwise how we could . . . *Prabhupāda: Just to be trained. That's all. By training we can find so many brahmacārīs . Just like by training you have given up so many things. You were accustomed to this illicit sex and meat*-eating and . . . but you have given up. But why? By training. So if we request the government, "Let us open this brahmacārī . . ." they'll not help. But they'll make the other propaganda. They'll make contraceptive method. And naturally one Hindu widow is trained up not to marry again. Once she got a husband, that's all right. "Now you convert your . . . you divert your attention to Kṛṣṇa." They'll make propaganda, "Why stop her sense gratification? Let her marry again, widow marriage." Why widow marriage? If there is voluntarily giving up begetting any more child, to avoid husband, why the widow marriage bill is introduced? Everything was natural, brahmacārī. The sterilization is already there. That will not be accepted. Widow, she's remaining refrained from. Just like we have now asked our girls not to dress attractively, widow. They should dress not attractively. Because after all, what is this sex enjoyment? Akṣayānanda: Finished. *Prabhupāda: It is not very good thing. By outward attraction they attract. Nice sārī, nice . . . (indistinct) . . . one becomes attracted. Therefore this is psychology, that if the woman does not dress very nicely, she will not be attractive. Unnecessarily attraction she will avoid. But a woman is naturally . . . her psychology is dress very nicely so that man may be attracted. Because they want shelter. This is the whole psychology. They, although they declare independence, they cannot live independently. That is not possible. Therefore they are by nature accustomed to dress attractively so that one may accept her and give her shelter. This is psychology. Otherwise, why the woman are naturally inclined to dress herself nice? Man does not. This is the psychology. A boy, sixteen*-years-old boy, he does not . . . he is roughly dressed, he does not . . . but a sixteen-year-old girl will never remain roughly. She'll always try to decorate herself very nicely and utilize her youthful beauty for attracting. Why attracting? Because she wants shelter. Therefore it is the duty of the father and mother that, "She is young girl, she wants shelter, and out of passion, lusty desires, her selection may be wrong. So before she selects out of her own way, let me—it is my duty, I am guardian—give her some good shelter." This is Hindu process. Akṣayānanda: Perfectly natural. Prabhupāda: Very natural. Akṣayānanda: But they say restricting. But they will say restricting, unnatural. *Prabhupāda: They may say, but this is natural psychology. Father, mother, they know, the well*-wisher of the children. Yes. Now everything is spoiled. But we don't care for this. We say take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything will be adjusted. Akṣayānanda: By sterilization, Prabhupāda . . . when they perform some operation, that will also spoil their intelligence. Prabhupāda: Everything is spoiled. Akṣayānanda: Because if the, as I have read, if the semina can go to the brain then there can be some intelligence, if even a little could go. Is it by sterilization no more can go to the brain, I think. So they have become bail (oxen). They've become like the bail. Prabhupāda: Nowadays boys are dull. Why dull? Akṣayānanda: So dull in India. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Because they discharge semina like anything. Must be dull. Akṣayānanda: Yeah. And then by . . . Prabhupāda: Uddhareta . There is a word, uddhareta . Reta means semina. One who has learned how to divert the movement of the semina to the brain, uddhareta , greatest yogī . By yogic power they can do that. Instead of discharging, going down. Akṣayānanda: So if they become sterilized, then there's no more possible for the semina to go up. Never again. Prabhupāda: No. Semina will not be produced. Akṣayānanda: It cannot . . . therefore it cannot go, nothing can go to the brain. Therefore their brain is finished for life. It is the same . . . Prabhupāda: Anything you do artificially . . . Akṣayānanda: It is just like making an operation on the brain. Sterilization is therefore the same . . . *Prabhupāda: The Kali*-yuga is . . . the material world is for suffering. Kali-yuga is more suffering. But it is not fault of the . . . just like this bābājī has been sterilized. Because the government knows, even the so-called sādhus and bābājīs , they are using their sex. Akṣayānanda: Bābājī has been . . .? Prabhupāda: They are now being, forcibly being taken. Akṣayānanda: Sterilized. Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know. I heard about it. Because they are having sex. Prabhupāda: It is open secret. Because so many women go to hospitals, American hospitals. Akṣayānanda: Oh, I know. Prabhupāda: The hospital men, they do not take it serious: "It is natural, a man and woman." But it is strictly forbidden according to spiritual life. Akṣayānanda: By law the doctor has to perform so many operations in his day of practice, medical practice. One doctor came here, he was our member. He said: "I have to go back to practice now. I have so many cases, sterilizations, to perform in this day; otherwise I won't get paid." Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: "I have to make so many people sterilization. Otherwise, I will not get paid. I will not be able to live now, because I must perform so many." Large figure. I've forgotten how many. Maybe one dozen in one day. One dozen, fifteen in one day. He must perform, by law. Prabhupāda: Just see. Akṣayānanda: Terrible. I often think it's like the bail. The bail, they have, with the bail gadi, and they cut. And the bail has no brain. He does anything you want. Devotee: What's a bail? Akṣayānanda: The oxen. And similarly the people now . . . (break) There must be a war very soon. It seems that there must be war very soon. War may happen very soon. Prabhupāda: There will be reaction. Akṣayānanda: Such a transgression of the laws, it cannot . . . how much further can it go, Prabhupāda? There must be a war very soon. Any day. Prabhupāda: Yes. I think they cannot ask you for sterilization. You are foreigners. Akṣayānanda: Ask us for sterilization. Hari-śauri: They can't sterilize us. Akṣayānanda: Well, nobody's asked us yet. Prabhupāda: No, legally can they? Akṣayānanda: By law, if you have three children. Hari-śauri: If you become Indian citizen, then. Akṣayānanda: If you have three children in your family, then by law you must have it. Prabhupāda: So you have no children. "So let me produce first of all three children." Akṣayānanda: Yes, right. That's what I thought. Prabhupāda: This argument. "First of all finish my . . ." Akṣayānanda: I had two when I was married. Prabhupāda: That is now . . . Akṣayānanda: But they are not here. They're not in the country. Prabhupāda: So, "We are sannyāsīs . We have no children. So why you are coming to us?" Akṣayānanda: They've never come, fortunately. Hari-śauri: They can only do that to their own citizens. They can only do that to Indian citizens. Prabhupāda: Foreigners . . . Akṣayānanda: So if I become Indian national, if I learn Hindi and become Indian national, then they will approach me? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Akṣayānanda: That can never happen. *Harikeśa: I just heard that seventy thousand women and thirty*-six thousand men. Akṣayānanda: Nasbandi , they call it. Nasbandi . Hari-śauri: That was just in one state. Harikeśa: In Delhi or U.P. or something. Prabhupāda: Nas means veins. Akṣayānanda: Means? Prabhupāda: Veins, these, veins. Akṣayānanda: Veins! I didn't know that. Bandi means stop it. Stop the vein so the semina will not go. Terrible. Harikeśa: You're sure about that? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Hari-śauri: They told you that's what they're doing. Stops you producing . . . they cut the tube that produces semina. Akṣayānanda: I don't know where they do it. Some part of the body. Hari-śauri: It's somewhere near the testes. They cut the tube. It takes ten minutes. And it stops you producing any more semina. Akṣayānanda: It's so bad. They give people . . . (break) . . . and eating so much nonsense. So the preaching in India has to be done very, very tactfully. Prabhupāda: No, just like I was speaking from *Bhāgavatam* . Akṣayānanda: Just what you have spoken. But our actions must be very tactful also. Prabhupāda: If you speak only on the subject matter as it is mentioned in the book, it is already tactful. Akṣayānanda: Jaya. But if we add something . . . Prabhupāda: *Now they are in a position of śoka*-moha-bhaya . So you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the best tact. Now it is the time. Now they are put into śoka-moha-bhaya . It is already there going on, śoka-moha-bhaya . But it is now special time for śoka-moha-bhaya . So you have to take it. It may be out of fear, bhaya , they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Akṣayānanda: Still, they have to just take, that's all. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Catur*-vidhā bhajante māṁ janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna ārto (BG 7.16). Ārto . Ārtaḥ means who is afraid of. So this is the position of ārta , śoka-moha-bhaya . Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But that he can take, provided he is sukṛtina —if there is background. But still, by hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa he becomes sukṛtina . Akṣayānanda: I think most of the devotees became by fear. I think most of the devotees have become devotees because of fear. Prabhupāda: Fear must be. If he's a gentleman he must be afraid of this material world. That is very good qualification. If one is afraid of this material existence, it is very good symptom. Akṣayānanda: Just about every devotee, before coming to you, has thought about suicide. Prabhupāda: Suicide? Oh. Akṣayānanda: So many, I know, I have spoken with them. And myself included. So many devotees, before . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, there was no hope. What is the use? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Just about every devotee, they have thought of suicide. Prabhupāda: Yes, they commit suicide. I have seen. Fall from the . . . Hari-śauri: Skyscraper. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tower. Akṣayānanda: Some have done. Prabhupāda: From the bridge. Hari-śauri: They have to put big wire screens up to stop people from jumping off. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen. Harikeśa: Berkeley. Prabhupāda: Berkeley, yes. Hari-śauri: Everywhere. Sydney has bridges like that. These big towers like Eiffel Tower in Paris, they have big fences along the top so that no one can . . . Prabhupāda: This practice is there in Vedic system. Not Vedic system . . . (indistinct) . . . fall down. There is technical name. Fall down from the mountain. This is easier than other type of suicide. Because you simply once jump, but as soon as you fall, you forget everything. Suicide itself is very bad. This fall down, serotan it is called. *Akṣayānanda: So one question I wanted to ask you in this connection is that this Vinoba, fasting until death, until cow slaughter is stopped. So if he dies, then he is guilty of murder. Is it correct? And if he's a brāhmaṇa , he is guilty of brahma*-hatya . So by this fasting he is committing a greater sin than the actual killing of the cows. Prabhupāda: You are right. Akṣayānanda: And what is the gain? *Prabhupāda: And what he'll get it? Does he think that by his dying of starvation this cow*-killing will be stopped? That is his foolishness. Akṣayānanda: He will die, and it will go on. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his foolishness. Akṣayānanda: And he does not know where he will go next. Prabhupāda: Just see, he is supposed to be very big man, and he's such a rascal. He has no sense what he is doing. Akṣayānanda: Plainly you have described in the *Gītā* . You have described plainly in the *Gītā* . No one else has done that. Cinmayananda's, this, that rascal, no one has. No one has explained that. They don't know. Prabhupāda: No, anyone who is not in our disciplic succession, he's not a human being. Cinmayananda, Vivekananda, this- ānanda , they simply . . . ānanda —there is no ānanda . All nirānanda . What Cinmayananda? He is supposed to be very big sannyāsī . What he has done? Akṣayānanda: What has he done? He advertised in the paper for young boys. Prabhupāda: There is one gentleman, Sadajiwatlal in Bombay. You know him? Akṣayānanda: Sadaji Mahatma? Prabhupāda: Sadajiwatlal. Akṣayānanda: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Chandu proprietor. Akṣayānanda: I know about him. I know of him. *Prabhupāda: He . . . he is very intelligent. He has said to a friend that Bhaktivedanta Swami sabka muh kala kar diya. (Bhaktivedanta Swami has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) Kāla means that he has made all other so*-called sannyāsīs , yogīs , black-faced. Akṣayānanda: (laughs) Jaya . He is intelligent. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Swami sabka muh kala kar diya. (Bhaktivedanta Swami has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) Akṣayānanda: It's true. It's true. Prabhupāda: Now here is a big sannyāsī , Akhandanandan, or Bon Maharaja. They are supposed to be big, big sannyāsī . Akṣayānanda: I do not know what Akhandanandan does. Prabhupāda: Anyway . . . (indistinct) . . . and this Anandamaya. Actually, I am not proud, but what they have done in comparison to me? Akṣayānanda: Yes, they've done nothing. Prabhupāda: He has said . . . sabka muh kala kar diya, (has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) Akṣayānanda: Mukāla . Prabhupāda: Kāla . Kāla means lajjita , black face. Everyone should be ashamed. They may be envious on account of their failure, but if you come to the actual valuation, sabka muh kala, (has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) That's a fact. Hari-śauri: Actually, that Bon Mahārāja is very black anyway. Prabhupāda: He's so black, there is no more black required. (laughter) A black snake. Kala brahmana, pota shudra . . . (Black brahmin , fair śūdra . . .) In Bengal it is said if a brahmin is black, he is dangerous. Akṣayānanda: If a brāhmin is black? *Prabhupāda: That means he's not pure brāhmin . Brāhmin cannot be black. Just like a European, if he becomes black, that means he has mixture. European and American, if he's black, that means mixture. So brāhmin family, how it has . . . still, family, it must be very fair, śukla . Brāhmin , kṣatriya family must be very beautiful. If he's pure. Kala brahmana, pota shudra, bete musholman, khankir chele, poshya*-putro . . . (indistinct) . . . (black brahmin , fair śūdra , dwarf Muslim, prostitute's son, adopted son . . . (indistinct) . . .) It is a slang language. (laughter) Kāla brāhmaṇa . Brāhmaṇa should not be black, and śūdra should not be white. And a Musselman should not be dwarf. Because formerly, real Musselmens were coming from Kabul, Afghanistan. That is called . . . (indistinct) . . . if a Musselman is dwarf, that means he is not real. Khankir chele . . . (Prostitute's son . . .) Prostitute's son, and poṣya-putra , adopted son. They are all of the same class. How this selection? Black brāhmin , white śūdra , dwarf Musselman, and prostitute's son and adopted son. Adopted son, he gets money without any earning and spends like . . . I have seen so many adopted sons. Hari-śauri: Adopted son, oh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like our . . . Haṁsadūta's wife, what is name? She has adopted a son. Hari-śauri: Oh, Himāvatī. Prabhupāda: Himāvatī. It is not like that. But generally, adopted son means spoiled son. Akṣayānanda: Spoiled. Spoiled brat. Prabhupāda: Because he gets money. Adopted . . . one who has got money but no children, he takes some adopted son. So the adopted son thinks that, "I have got so much money," and he has never worked. He is spoiled. I have seen many adopted son in our . . . got lakhs and lakhs of rupees, and in one night he's spoiled everything, simply after woman and wine. I have seen it. There was one gentleman, Narendranath Singh. Very big, palatial building and very rich man. And I have seen him when he was finished. He was friend of big, big person, Raja Maharlal. And one day I saw in Calcutta, in . . . (indistinct) . . . there was raining and he was sitting in a ricksha. And no friend. He had known practically all big men of Calcutta, friend. Nobody is coming. "Well, Narendra, you are sitting. Come on in my car." Nobody. I was . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was drenching, there was heavy rain. And sitting in a . . . and he was keeping Rolls Royce car. Akṣayānanda: Keeping? Prabhupāda: Rolls Royce car. When he was rich man. Akṣayānanda: Sometimes while traveling I've met some very old, rich men lying on their deathbed, dying. I approached them to help us. They will not give a single penny. It is all going to the son, and the son is atheist. In the house there is everywhere Kṛṣṇa's picture. Very difficult. They don't know that Kṛṣṇa is giving them a chance. They die; within days some of them can die. They are lying on the bed, passing stool and urine. So rich. But they do not care to help this movement. So many people like that. We have to become very expert. (end) Conversation A -- September 7, 1976, Vrndavana *Prabhupāda: . . . forest, naked, renounced, eating fruits, but debauch number one. Markaṭa*-vairāgya. There are so many vairāgīs. Markaṭa. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said, ei 'ta kali-celā : here is a disciple of Kali. Nāke tilaka galāi mālā : but has got a tilaka on the forehead and neckbeads on the neck, but is kali-celā —number one disciple of Kali. You know this song? This is going on. Kali-celā . These persons who are committing sinful life—don't say anyone (laughs) or publish—there will be trouble. But that's a fact. Those who are living in Vṛndāvana and acting like monkey, they'll get next life a monkey, to remain in Vṛndāvana, and then next life they will be liberated. In one life all their sinful activities will be punished. Because as soon as animal life is obtained, there is no more further record of the sinful life. The animals cannot make sinful activities more than what is destined by him. But their sinful activity is not taken into account. For this man who is offered this monkey's body, he suffers the inconvenience of monkey life. So his sinful activities are counteracted, and because he came to Vṛndāvana and lived in Vṛndāvana by the mercy of Rādhārāṇī, next life he will be . . . that is the glory of Vṛndāvana-dhāma. Otherwise, what is the explanation of these dogs and hogs and monkeys in Vṛndāvana? If it is dhāma-aparādha , committing offense in dhāma . . . dhāma-aparādha . As dhāma-bhajana , if one undergoes devotional service out of Vṛndāvana and one executes devotional service in Vṛndāvana, that is hundred times better. Similarly, dhāma-aparādha also. This aparādha , when offense is committed outside Vṛndāvana, that is not so grievous as committing offense in Vṛndāvana. Dhāma-aparādha . *So the punishment is there, but the reward is also there. One life makes pardoned. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su*-samīkṣamāṇo bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam ( SB 10.14.8). Therefore a devotee in a reverse condition of life, he understands that "I am punished, little punished for my previous mischievous activities. So now I am becoming liberated." So he becomes more enthused to worship the Lord, that "You are finishing my sinful reaction of life with slight punishment. Thank you very much." This is devotee. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇaḥ . Harikeśa: The dogs and the monkeys, they feel grateful? Prabhupāda: Yes, when they come to sense they feel grateful. As dogs they cannot. As dog or monkey they cannot enhance their sinful activities. It is stopped. And whatever they do, that is not taken into account. And to suffer as dog or monkey means counteracting all previous sins. One punishment finished. Then he's fully liberated. Harikeśa: I was always wondering that if somebody's desire is to commit sinful activities . . . *Prabhupāda: No, in Kali*-yuga if you desire, it is not sinful. And act . . . Harikeśa: If they desire to commit sinful activities, and before they became monkeys, but then they were doing it then. So whilst they're monkeys their desire must change. Or is it forced, that change forced upon them by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: But if desire changes, then where is punishment? If he's repentant, then there is no punishment. Harikeśa: So before they go back to the spiritual world that desire must change. Prabhupāda: This is forceful change. Harikeśa: Forceful change. Prabhupāda: That is the advantage of Vṛndāvana bhajana . Harikeśa: That is very good. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: But not that willfully do something wrong. That is punishment. There is punishment. If one unconsciously, without any knowledge, does something wrong, that is excused. But they do willfully. They know it is wrong, still they do it. That is punished. Knowingly. Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally said, asat eka strī*-saṅgī (CC Madhya 22.87). Those who are habituated to illicit sex are punishable. Asat . It is very, very bad. And still if somebody does like that, he is punished. This is going on: "All right." Here, illicit sex . . . the bābājīs , I heard, they say, "What is the wrong there? It is love." They say like that. They take it as love. "gopīs love," they say. "gopīs used to do that, used to have illicit mixing, intermingling with Kṛṣṇa. What is wrong?" They'll say. They get support from kṛṣṇa-līlā. Such rogues they are. Sahajiyās . There are many so-called gentlemen, they write books on kṛṣṇa-līlā , paint picture. "This is very nice. Kṛṣṇa is advocating illicit intermingling." They take it as support of their sinful activities. I have seen personally, anyone who is a woman-hunter, he's being addressed by his friend, "Oh, you are like Kṛṣṇa." They take Kṛṣṇa as a man. How they will take instruction of Kṛṣṇa? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11). We are teaching people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, to become servant of Kṛṣṇa, and the so-called gentlemen, enlightened gentlemen, take Kṛṣṇa as a debauch, black debauch. (long pause) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . Vaiṣṇava religion is sex. (break) There are aborigines in India, Santal. They are called Santal. Black men, live in the forest like the African aborigines. So I asked him that "You, jungle, do you meet the tigers?" "Oh, yes, yes. Why not?" "So how do you save yourself?" So he had a small ax in his hand. So he showed me that "So long I have got this ax, even the tiger will not dare to attack me." Eta amar haate yatakshan thakbe. (As long as it's in my hand.) So after all, tiger is afraid of the ax. They are afraid of even stick. That immediately they understand, "He's superior." Actually, man is superior with some weapon. I have got personal experience. He said, "He's a big tiger. But we treat them like dogs." One ax. They keep always. Just like we keep a stick, they keep one ax. *Harikeśa: Last year they bit Upendra. Remember that? Upendra went to Sevā*-kuñja and the monkeys came and took away all of his prasādam and bit him in the leg. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Many monkeys were deported by the government, but people protested. They were capturing monkeys . . . Harikeśa: Here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Government. And selling at good price in Europe for taking their hormone. The monkey's hormones is injected or replaced so one regains his sex power. They are very sexually strong. Harikeśa: That must interfere with their monkey's spiritual life. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: That interferes with the spiritual life of the monkey? Because then he can't die in Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: It is further from them. Everything is being done by superior arrangement. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). People should learn all these things by practical example instead of becoming irresponsible and without any obedience to the superior law. They should learn it, but they have no intelligence. They think, "We are all free." Wherefrom the monkey is coming, why there are so many varieties of life, how it is . . .? What do they know? Nothing. All bluff, vague explanation, and that is going on in the name of science. This is the position. All rascals. Fortunately we have got this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā . All knowledge. First-class knowledge. (break) . . . eternally enjoyment. For him everything, ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Everything ānanda . He has no such thing that "This is harmful," "This is useful." That is Kṛṣṇa. Because nobody can do harm to Him, and neither in the spiritual world, anyone is harmful. Everyone is advanced devotee. Even the tigers, they are also devotees. Harikeśa: Tigers? Prabhupāda: Varieties are there. Hari-śauri: They have tigers and serpents and everything like that? Prabhupāda: Everything. They are all devotees. Harikeśa: There are no dogs and hogs. Prabhupāda: Yes. The hogs may be also there. Hari-śauri: Hogs are there as well? (laughs) Harikeśa: They are there. Prabhupāda: But they are not hog. Just like Kṛṣṇa appears as hog, but that doesn't mean He's hog. Kṛṣṇa appears as fish. That does not mean He's fish. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotee offers obeisances) (end) Conversation A -- September 9, 1976, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: . . . because as soon as the ship stopped, Commonwealth Pier, Boston, the Immigration Department came and took their papers. So I entered America in Boston. There was no checking in New York. The ship stopped in Boston. The official entrance was done there. Then when I came to New York, it is just like one day's travel. Harikeśa: No, that's not very far. And then you went to Pennsylvania. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: And then you went directly to Pennsylvania? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: By bus? Prabhupāda: Yes. Then one agent appointed by my host, Gopal Agarwal . . . he was in Butler. So he arranged with some professional, what is called, host. Harikeśa: Travel agent? Prabhupāda: Maybe travel agent. He came to see me that, "I am sent by Gopal Agarwal, so I'll arrange for your dispatch. You come with me." Hari-śauri: Dr. Agarwal was your sponsor? Prabhupāda: Yes, sponsor. His father came to see me sometime in Agra. Hari-śauri: In India. Prabhupāda: Agra. His father, mother came. Hari-śauri: And then they suggested that he be your sponsor. *Prabhupāda: It was all by chance. I was for a few days guest at his father's place in Agra. I did not know that his son is in America. So he was talking about his family. He was little sorry that his eldest son went to America to study electric engineering, and he was entrapped by an English girl there, and he married and settled there and did not come back. In this way . . . so I took the opportunity that, "Why don't you ask your son to sponsor me?" I wanted to go to America. So I did not know how seriously he took it. But I simply told him that, "Why don't you ask your son to sponsor me at least for one month? So I am thinking of going to America." Then that was talking, beginning and end, that's all. I did not know that he took it very seriously. Then after two, three months, some documents came. I was receiving my letters in a postbox. So when I left Delhi I used to keep my key of postbox with some nice bookseller, Atmaram, he was manager. So he opened that, he got that documents. That is No*-Objection Certificate, sponsor, and everything. I was out of Delhi. Then when I came back I took it. So everything was there, that sheet . . . (indistinct) . . . taken from the Indian Consulate, No-Objection Certificate and everything. Then I applied for a passport. In this way I had to go there. So Gopal was unknown to me, but his father was . . . his father was known to me, mother was known to me. Then his agent got me on the bus. So on the bus went to Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania? Hari-śauri: That's a long drive. Prabhupāda: Yes, nine hours on the bus. And I took a little chipped rice, (laughs) and whatever I had with me. So I got down from the ship about one o'clock. Then I had to wait for the bus till five o'clock. Then at five o'clock the bus started. About two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning, I went to Pennsylvania, and just in front of the bus Gopal was standing with his car, that . . . what is called? Van car? Harikeśa: Stationwagon. Prabhupāda: Stationwagon. So he took my luggage, and from there thirty miles off, the Butler County. So I went there. Then at night he took my bedding and . . . the next day, he had no many rooms in his apartment, he arranged for my stay in the YMCA nearby them. Hari-śauri: You never actually stayed with him, then. Prabhupāda: I was going. I was taking my meals there. Hari-śauri: Oh. And just keeping a room at the YMCA. Prabhupāda: Because he had no room, so I was staying there. Hari-śauri: And then he arranged programs, speaking programs, or . . .? Prabhupāda: His wife, Sally. His wife, Sally, she was arranging. A very intelligent girl. They were of the same age, about thirty. Gopal was more than thirty and she was about thirty . . . (indistinct) . . . I saw that she was feeding her child, one boy, meat powder. Harikeśa: Beef bouillion? Prabhupāda: I do know what is the name. But I asked. She said: "It is meat powder." That is the system? Hari-śauri: Yeah. When they're very young and they can't eat solids. Prabhupāda: With hot water. Hari-śauri: Yes, they have instant meals for children. All different kinds of things. Prabhupāda: So Gopal was very much pleased that he could get some Indian cāpāṭis , like this. Hari-śauri: So he had you cook for him. You took your cooker with you? Is that the same one? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: A different one then. *Prabhupāda: So I lived with him for twenty*-one days. Then I came to New York. *Hari-śauri: Yes, that picture in the Butler Eagle , it's in the Vyāsa*-Pūjā book this year. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Butler County, it is good county. There were many churches. That pleased me, that people have got so many churches, they're religious. (break) . . . some time, that one piece of wire lying in one place, one piece of bamboo was lying in another place, and one dry shell of a squash was lying there. So one intelligent man collected this. So this dry shell became the tambura's . . . what is called? Hari-śauri: I don't know. Like sound chamber. What do you call it? Like on a tambura. *Prabhupāda: Sound chamber maybe called. So with that dry squash he made the sound chamber. The bamboo he fixed up, and the wire upon it, and then it became a " tin*-tin-tin-tin . . ." (laughs) Our organization is like that. I was loitering in the street. Somebody was over there, somebody was there, not combined together. International Society String Band. Yes. Separately we are all useless. Eh? Hari-śauri: No, we were useless. You were never useless. *Prabhupāda: No, your assistance was required. How you can be useless? We're all useless. But combined together, now we have become a stringed instrument. This is very good example. Separately . . . just like the same logic, andha*-khañja. Separately, andha is useless, and khañja is useless. Blind and lame. They cannot do anything. But combined together, they become useful. Then? Hari-śauri: Would you like to reply? Or is it just recorded? Prabhupāda: I shall reply. You find them if they are coming. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Harikeśa: There's a . . . it's a very . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- September 11, 1976, Vrndavana Saurabha: . . . in Bombay. Prabhupāda: So first of all finish your construction. Then you go to . . . (indistinct) Saurabha: No, but I mean they are carving the wood and everything, the shape of the . . . Prabhupāda: Now, we shall bring priests from Hyderabad. Saurabha: Ah. That is the technical thing. But I was speaking regarding the construction, because I want to know whether you want to have the (break) bathing ceremony only taking place on the opening day, or also later on the facility can . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Saurabha: Only that day. Prabhupāda: Only that day. Saurabha: Then is it necessary to make this special arrangement that this . . . because I think that they . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. The small Deities, śālagrāma , They are worshiped. And big Deity, They are decorated nicely. No need of washing. Saurabha: So only the opening ceremony. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Nitāi had them bathe the big Deities here, Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, on Janmāṣṭamī. *Dhanañjaya: And on Balarāma's appearance day, the big Deities were bathed. Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. Harikeśa: Terrible speculation. Dhanañjaya: Actually, Janmāṣṭamī celebrations were very bad, and it's very . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore the color has faded? He is a rascal. Harikeśa: I remember that when these Deities . . . they're never to be washed. Never water was to touch. Supposed to put a plastic bag over the Deity. That was . . . if you have to use the big Deities, you're supposed to cover Them with plastic. Prabhupāda: Why did you allow? Just see, this is the disease. Rascals, they do not know. And although I was . . . Dhanañjaya: No, but everyone was listening to him. He was posing himself as the most learned in Deity worship. Prabhupāda: That he's fond of. *Dhanañjaya: He was introducing Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa . *Harikeśa: But it doesn't say in Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa that you bathe in water marble Deities. It says you're supposed to have a smaller set for bathing. That's in Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. Dhanañjaya: His idea was that we would become the most famous temple for bathing big Deities in Vṛndāvana. This was his idea. Prabhupāda: That bathing is not done on the siṁhāsana . The Deity is taken out. Then it is done. But that is very risky. You cannot do it. Dhanañjaya: And besides that, the bathing was done by devotees who are not experienced in Deity worship. Prabhupāda: Don't allow him. This botheration he has gone. He is simply posing himself very learned Sanskrit scholar, above everything. That is his ambition. Saurabha: And on the opening day the Deities will be on the altar, or They will be in front when They're bathed? When the bathing is taking place in Bombay for the opening, then They'll . . . Prabhupāda: That the priest will arrange, who will come from . . . Saurabha: Yes. But They will be on the altar or They will be in front? Prabhupāda: No. In the front They are left. Saurabha: So not on the altar. Prabhupāda: No. But if it is risky, you should not do. Big Deity . . . we have got big Deity, huh? *Harikeśa: Yes, very heavy. They are very heavy, Rādhā*-Rāsabihārī. Prabhupāda: What they do in Hyderabad? Harikeśa: Hyderabad the Deity was already installed. There was no need for bathing, so they didn't do it. Prabhupāda: Other Deities? *Dhanañjaya: Here, just like here for the opening prāṇa*-pratiṣṭhā . Harikeśa: Yes, they bathed the small Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Anyway, we should not take risk at any rate. *Harikeśa: Rādhā*-Rāsabihārī, also, when They came from Akash-Ganga there was a disturbance with Them also. Rādhā has a tendency to crack on the arm. Her left arm cracks. Prabhupāda: Where? Harikeśa: Slightly. There was a very weak . . . it was very weak. Very weak. I remember 'cause they had to move three times. I was there when all the times when They were moved. Prabhupāda: In Bombay. Harikeśa: In Bombay. And every time they were very upset because of this left arm. *Prabhupāda: This risk should not be taken at any gain. Never mind Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa , this- vilāsa - no risk. You must always know - no risk. That is the first point. Then we consult Hari-bhakti-vilāsa and all this . . . nobody can give reference to Hari-bhakti-vilāsa at risk. No. Not at all. So? Anything more? Dhanañjaya: Can I ask one question? You were mentioning that you wanted to start local industries, casting Deities. Prabhupāda: Yes, we can purchase . . . we can . . . Dhanañjaya: Purchase raw materials? Prabhupāda: So, everything is all right now? Devotee: Yes. Dhanañjaya: So I was wondering . . . Prabhupāda: Can you come, there . . . (break) Hari-śauri: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There are, what is called, Deity makers here? Dhanañjaya: Well, most of the Deities, they are cast in Aligarh. Prabhupāda: Aligarh? Oh. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Then they're brought here, and there is . . . craftsmen, they finish. They polish, then they add . . . Prabhupāda: So who is from Aligarh? You go to . . . we have got a best friend in Aligarh. Dhanañjaya: Surendra Kumar. Surendra Kumar. Prabhupāda: Ah. He'll get you all those things. Hari-śauri: He should know everything about that, because he's making lots. Prabhupāda: And another . . . Aligarh is the best place. (aside) What is that? Akṣaya: It's the gentleman who was with you last night, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Prem Yogi. He has come with his luggage. Prabhupāda: Prem Yogi. So give him that place vacated by the old man. Hari-śauri: Next to Akṣayānanda's room. Seventeen. Take him up there. *Harikeśa: Actually you can just bring him to Bhakti*-pradhāna and tell him. Bhakti-pradhāna is the manager of the guesthouse, so he should take care of it. Prabhupāda: No, this old man has gone. So give him that place. Yes. Akṣaya: I believe there are two men. Prabhupāda: Two men, that's all right. Yes. Akṣaya: Thank you. Prabhupāda: So, you just officially receive them. He's got M.A., Ph.D. Good man. This is etiquette. Dhanañjaya: So, what I wanted to know was that, ah, you wanted . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Develop that business and give engagement. The women can live here for sewing. They must be comfortably situated. If they are feeling, women, they cannot feel very bad and stay. We do not want that. So they can live here in a room and work sewing. And our women who has learned, they can teach. Very simple thing. That's all. And men must be engaged there for finishing. And if at Aligarh they are, what is called . . .? Dhanañjaya: Casting. Prabhupāda: . . . casting, then there is no difference. And there is no difficulty. Dhanañjaya: So the Deity should be cast in Aligarh and then finished here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: Just like we are doing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Aligarh is from here 45 miles away. You can go and bring them, and Surendranath will help you. If there are expert men in Aligarh, that will be very nice. A different size Deity, you get there. Dhanañjaya: Six inches, nine inches, twelve, fifteen. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And nice Gaura*-Nitāi and Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. And they'll prepare nice dress and pack in a box and send to our different centers. There are hundred centers. If you can dispatch at least one dozen pairs, you can make business for twelve hundred pairs. It will be very big business. And if they are displayed, people will like to purchase. It will be very good business. Dhanañjaya: Even here. For people coming to our temple, if we have display they will purchase. Prabhupāda: Yes. We can have our shop here. We are getting so many shops. So one shop Deity and Deity clothes and mukuṭas . Just like they have got . . . Dhanañjaya: In Loi Bazaar. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: The same. Harikeśa: One shop sweets. *Prabhupāda: Apply business brain. Everything I'll have to tell you. You can . . . anyone who has got business brain, he can earn any amount of money. That is the . . . these are all . . . incense, Deity, and then mukuṭa , then tulasī*-mālā , then karatālas, manjiras , some pañcapātrā . In this way. Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This man brought his friend. That room is not big enough for three. So they will have to take another room for two. Prabhupāda: Friend? Harikeśa: His friend. Dhanañjaya: One friend has come with him. Harikeśa: That same person from last night, the one wearing white? Prabhupāda: Ah. So the three men cannot live there? Harikeśa: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Harikeśa: It's too small. Prabhupāda: No, no. Not so. First of all, give them, then we shall see later on. Why immediately want facilities? Or he can . . . the other man can go with the brahmacārīs . Harikeśa: The younger one. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes, somebody may go to the brahmacārīs . Just now make them accommodated there, then we shall see what to do. That "First of all you stay here, then we shall see what is convenient to you then." Harikeśa: Because they're in an awful small room. If I put three in that room, that one man who's already there may become upset. Prabhupāda: He has already gone there? Harikeśa: No, I mean, I know. I've been there. But that one man who's there now . . . Prabhupāda: So four men cannot live in that room? Harikeśa: Three men not possible. Because they've got two beds in there. Two of these big, huge . . . Prabhupāda: At least you provide them two men there and one man with brahmacārīs . That's all. Not that we can spare so many rooms. Harikeśa: If I ask that man who's already there to go to the brahmacārīs , he may become offended. Prabhupāda: Yes, you do that. He can go to the brahmacārīs . That's all. Hari-śauri: You can give him one of those sannyāsī rooms in the brahmacārīs . Harikeśa: All right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Arrange everything. But don't turn this, and very easily give the other guest room. Then it will be awkward like anything. Very cautiously. So this is the program I am giving, and if you can give some practical sense, it will be very nice, profitable business. Dhanañjaya: Yes. But it will require some capital in the beginning. Prabhupāda: So capital required, we can give. There is no scarcity of capital. But it must be consulted between three—Gopāla, Viśvambhara and yourself. And then if capital is required, how capital you will repay, make them assured. I shall give you. There is no difficulty. Capital you will have, provided you can make profit. Not that we give capital and then never return. That will not be possible. Take any amount of capital, but we must be paid interest as bank gives loan. I can say bank will give you. If I order the bank, bank will give you. So capital there is no question. The question is how you shall utilize it, how you shall make profit. Capital, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, you can take lakhs and lakhs . That I can arrange. The bank, if I say to the bank they will have to give you, or I shall personally give you. There is no question of capital scarcity. So only thing is how will you utilize this capital and how you will make profit. That's all. You make that program. So far capital is concerned, there is no concern. You'll get any amount of capital if you can develop the business. Now we have got credit in the bank, any bank will give you if I say yes. There will be no scarcity of capital. Prabhupāda: In Aligarh he has got so many friends. (Bhagatjī laughs) Aligarh we have got many friends. Bhagatjī: Half of my life was spent in Aligarh. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Aligarh is maternal uncle's house. So many relatives. So Aligarh, if the Deities are manufactured there, so there is no difficulty. Bhagatjī: No problem. If we get money . . . Prabhupāda: He'll arrange money. Money I shall bring . . . (indistinct) . . . money, we shall bring any amount of money, provided I am sure that you will make some profit. There is no scarcity. Bhagatjī: Prabhupāda, I was sick last night very much. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Bhagatjī: So I could not come to you. Prabhupāda: Last night you did not come? Bhagatjī: I came to see only to have your darśana , but I was in fever so much. Prabhupāda: Oh. So capital you'll get, rest assured. Anyone will give. He will give, or I will give, the bank will give. That is . . . but you must utilize it properly. Bhagatjī: You understand how to utilize? Dhanañjaya: Yes, I understand. Prabhupāda: There is no scarcity. Dhanañjaya: Utilize means return. Bhagatjī: Return means to utilize it properly. Prabhupāda: No, return also gradually, not at a time. Because if you take five thousand rupees, pay at the rate of five hundred rupees. Bhagatjī: Junior Sorcar jo magician hai world ke sabse bade, woh darshan karne ke liye aapke yahan aaye hain. Wahan se woh Ghaziabad jaa rahe hain abhi. Woh aapke darshan ke liye bahut zyada . . . (Junior Sorcar who is the world's biggest magician is here to meet you. He is leaving for Ghaziabad after that. He is very eager to meet you . . .) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . is concerned, that is our home, Aligarh. Bhagatjī: Aligarh. Prabhupāda: Money is concerned, you'll get any amount. Now organize and . . . (indistinct) Dhanañjaya: Now, another thing I wanted to ask. Many devotees were asking me if we could make a deity of Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: That is not very . . . well . . . that is not immediate. We shall see later on. You can make. That we shall see later on. Not immediately. Immediately you make this arrangement. *Dhanañjaya: And for design of Gaura*-Nitāi and Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, we should just use the same design, or we should make better? Prabhupāda: Make a hand design like that, and have your people make like that. Make a nice . . . Dhanañjaya: Make, yes. I mean, better design. Prabhupāda: Yes, make a better design. And the hand will be like this. (Prabhupāda raises his arms above his head, and stretches his palms open with his fingers pointing outwards) Dhanañjaya: Not like this. I like this myself. It's Navadvīpa style. Prabhupāda: This is Navadvīpa style. Dhanañjaya: Yes, I like this much better. Otherwise the arms are too long and thin. *Prabhupāda: No. In this way make a nice design Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. And Rādhārāṇī should be like this. (demonstrates Rādhārāṇī's right hand raised above waist-level, Her palm upwards and the thumb joined to the tip of Her index finger) This is Vṛndāvana style. Not this. This is Lakṣmī style. This. Make these arrangements. I am hopeful of this business. Very good business we'll have. I want to introduce in every family. They'll do it. If they do not worship, let them keep as dolls. That will also give them inspiration. Dhanañjaya: Actually, so many Indians in the West, they're keeping just like dolls. They are not worshiping regularly. They're keeping on the mantelpiece or on the side. Prabhupāda: In this way be encouraged, and in full capacity do business and get others. Dhanañjaya: There was one boy who just came from Italy, and he's expert in wood carving. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Dhanañjaya: So we can take artists for wooden siṁhāsanas . Siṁhāsanas he said he can make. He even brought his tools. He has a whole box of tools he brought just for carving, and he studied in the south of Spain, religious architecture. Prabhupāda: He can make a small siṁhāsana for the Deities, collapsible, so that if anyone wants, he can dispatch them. (end) Conversation -- September 12, 1976, Vrndavana (bullock cart SKP) Prabhupāda: I have seen, Gandhi wanted to organize a village program, and the village . . . (break) . . . in the field, that this program for constructing toilet in the village, they have spent so much. You know that? The first business was toilet. To restrict them to pass stool here and there, they must have. Now in constructing that toilet paraphernalia . . . (indistinct) . . . they . . . therefore it failed, village organization. Not for that purpose. There were many purpose. Because they had no engagement, so why they should remain in the village? There are so many attraction in the city, and they get money. The factory- wallas , they're inviting, "Come here. You shall get twenty rupees per day." Why shall he remain in the village? So if you can organize in the villages, they are interested in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and getting nice prasādam , then . . . one must have some attachment. In the city there are so many artificial attachments. So on what ground they'll remain in the village? Mind . . . always remember this. Unless you have got some attachment, there is no possibility. Gandhi's program was very nice, village organized so that they may not come to the city and help the capitalists. Remain satisfied in the village. But where is that satisfaction? That is the failure. Lokanātha: If they add the holy name to their lives, they will . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. If they could understand that, "That will be helpful if you chant." Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's statement will never be false. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12). If they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , then gradually the dirty things accumulated within the heart will be cleansed. And if he comes to the understanding, clear idea, that "I want to eat something, and my necessities . . . so if I get my necessities, primary necessities of life, and satisfaction of mind, then why shall I go to the city?" That they can have very easily . . . if they follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā , that "Your first necessity is food . . ." So produce food here. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). And you'll find here so much land is lying vacant, because they have gone to the city for twenty rupees daily to manufacture Goodyear tyre. And who will work here? Now I have seen in Delhi, the government is advertising, "Go back to the village." Lokanātha: Yes, I read that . . . Prabhupāda: You are . . . rascal, you are manufacturing wine and keeping them engaged whole day in the work. So after tired, being tired, he requires some wine. Then and why he'll go? And no spiritual education, no cleanliness. Simply inviting, "Go to the village," they will go? Lokanātha: Just a propaganda. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . no, they're thinking that, "So many people are coming to the cities, how we shall provide them?" That's a problem. After all, government has to supply them rations. Where is so much foodstuff? And if they are not supplied, then there will be resentment. This is a fact. What they are doing in the city, so many scooter (makes motor sound), going here and there. Actually no engagement. The girls are loitering in the street by dressing. It will become more and more problems, city life. So this is the solution, that they must go back to the village. But they are trained up to enjoy the facilities, so*-called facilities, of the city. They are not going to village. But if we can introduce this hari-saṅkīrtana , and if they have little taste, that is success. It's a great program. And that taste will come— ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). If he simply becomes little sober that, "I want to eat, I have to sleep, I want some sense enjoyment and defense. So if I can get easily in the village, why shall I go three hundred miles away?" Just keep in mind the psychology. So that simple life will be possible if one is bhakta . Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Only by devotion; *not by otherwise. Not by artificial means, by manufacturing toilet. Only bhakti . If they get little attachment for Kṛṣṇa, these questions will be solved automatically, and they will be happy. Undoubtedly. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first instruction: ceto*-darpaṇa. Lokanātha: I come from village, and I'm happy now, as I have taken to holy name and prasāda . So more, other villagers . . . half of these boys are from villages? (referring to other members of the bullock cart party) Prabhupāda: Yes, they are villagers. Lokanātha: They're chanting and they're so happy, and they're going back to village. Prabhupāda: Very good life. Very good life, the village life—provided he has got proper engagement. Otherwise his mind will be disturbed, and he'll seek after wine, after women, after this, after that. Devil's workshop. *Ravi: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Because there's no sacrifice, because people aren't performing sacrifices now, is it more difficult to live off the land? It is more difficult to grow vegetables in Kali*-yuga where there's no sacrifice? Prabhupāda: What is that sacrifice? Ravi: Chanting. Chanting the holy name. Doesn't that make it more difficult to live? The weather's . . . everything's so disturbed? Prabhupāda: Whether you're not eating? Lokanātha: He says there is no yajña , sacrifice. People are not performing. That is why they are into the trouble. *Prabhupāda: This is yajña . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana*-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Su-medhasaḥ . Those who have got brain substance, they perform this saṅkīrtana-yajña . Those who have cow dung, they cannot. (laughter) One who has got brain substance. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ . And alpa-medhasa . The two words. Svayambhūr: Viśvambhara is having fever, but he'll go to Koshi now. Viśvambhara is having fever, so he'll go . . . Prabhupāda: Who will go? Svayambhūr: Viśvambhara will go when he's better, maybe tomorrow. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. There is another word: tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasaḥ . Tad bhavati . . . alpa-medha and su-medhasa . These two words we get from the śāstra . Those who are alpa-medhasa , they want to bring . . . just like in name, gītā-yajñas . There is no yajña. They are manufacturing some ideas. The other yajñas are not possible in this age. First of all, there is no yajñika-brāhmaṇa , there is no ingredients. So therefore this is the yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ . This is quotation from Bhāgavata . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti he su-medhasaḥ . Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni . . . (CC Antya 20.12). This yajña . Simply chant, and engage others in chanting. That is yajña , first-class yajña , recommended. Ravi: Prabhupāda? When we pass through the village, how will we keep them engaged . . . Prabhupāda: That he'll guide you. You do not know. He is from village, he knows. Village or no village, wherever you chant, people will come. That is a fact. That is a fact. Either you chant in Calcutta Maidan or in the village, they will be . . . India is still alive in that sense. We have seen it. We have experience. Wherever we have chanted, people have come. Lokanātha: When you went to some place in Gujarat . . . Sanand? Prabhupāda: Yes. Lokanātha: It was reported that thousands of people will come. It was a small village . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Village, if you go, ah, they will come like anything. Even in the city we have got experience. In Calcutta we did Maidan. Thirty thousand they were coming. They could not understand English, still they are coming—simply by kīrtana . This Haṁsadūta was performing kīrtana , and all the Bengali ladies coming from outside Calcutta by train, and they're praying, "Take this." . . . (indistinct) . . . still India is alive. And I was speaking in English mostly. Also in Delhi. Still ladies are sitting. (laughs) What they'll understand English? But that kīrtana was so attractive, they sat down only for kīrtana. Lokanātha: Nobody outside ISKCON does this kīrtana. Prabhupāda: What do they know? What they'll do? All rascals, fools. They never done. Lokanātha: Even some religious organizations are there, but nobody . . . Prabhupāda: They do not know what is religion. They do not know what is religion. They have no faith in God. This is their position. All bogus. I say it, challenging, do they know what is God? Ki balo, (Now say) Mr. Gupta? Do they know? People in general, do they know what is God? Mr. Gupta: They don't know what is God. But they only respect God out of fear. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is also good. Ārto arthārthī (BG 7.16). Ārtaḥ . That is good. But still they do not know what is God. They have simply heard the name of God, there is God. That is good also, than the rascals who deny the existence of God. So in comparison to them, they are very good. At least they accept there is something as God: "God is good," "God is kind," "God is . . ." But what is God they have no idea. That's a fact. That they do not know. Either the nonbelievers or believers, both of them, they have no idea. This is the first time, perhaps, in the world we are introducing, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." Lokanātha: You have said many times you could give complete address of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, we give address. Lokanātha: And also we know the telephone number. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lokanātha: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: This is the first time. Otherwise, they do not know what is God. Now you are coming from Christian community. Did you have any idea of God? Dhanañjaya: Just "God is great." *Prabhupāda: That's all . . . but what is that great? What is God, you do not know. We know. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Bās. "There is no more greater principle than Me." That is great. "How You are great?" Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2): "I am the origin of all these demigods." Next "How You are great?" Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). This is their ignorance. They have simply heard God is great, but how He is great, that they do not know. Here is the . . . God is personally speaking, "Yes, I am great in this way." Ahaṁ sarvasya . Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). That is greatness. The original source of everything. So we are presenting God, "Here is God, here is God". Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ (SB 1.3.28). There are other incarnations, but kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . That's a fact. *So try to present the real fact. It will be effective. If there is real . . . reality, just like first*-class pure ghee . . . if one tastes, he'll hanker after. Without any advertisement, by the taste of the ghee , it will go on. Is it not? If you put little pure ghee on the rice, it will be so tasteful that he'll want it again. But give the pure thing. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Try to give Him to the people. And how to take it? Hare Kṛṣṇa. He hasn't got to pay anything. God has given him the tongue. Induce him, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And that is the beginning. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). It begins from the jihvā . So people will be surprised, "How God consciousness begins with jihvā? " That they do not know. Śāstra says, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Jihvā , the tongue, is the beginning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. People are surprised. They think the mind, speculative mind, is the beginning. No. Śāstra says tongue is the beginning. Muni, ṛṣi, muni . Muni means speculator. So they think speculative mind is the beginning of God consciousness. But śāstra says no, not the mind. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). If one is speculator, he will be on the material field. Asata. Asato mā sad gamaya . "Don't remain in the asat . Come to the reality." That reality begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . Jihvā ādi, ādau . So give them chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and give them chance to taste prasādam . They'll be . . . that's all. Jihvādau . Utilize the tongue, primarily. And gradually everything will be . . . So chant as much possible and eat prasādam . No education required, no philosophy required. But follow the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction and become guru . *If they have got little brain, then kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa . Otherwise, Hare Kṛṣṇa upadeśa , that's all. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very simple. The preacher does not require to be very highly educated. If he follows simply Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128), then he's successful. No, ustādi. (expertise.) That is not . . . Lokanātha: No what? Prabhupāda: Ustādi , ustad hota hai na? (Expertise, there are Ustāds right?) Lokanātha: Flowery language. Prabhupāda: Bhagavan pehla. Ye Ustadi hai. Maya ka juta kha raha hai aur Bhagvan bante hai . . . itna sense nahi hai ki agar main Bhagvan hi hota toh ye juta khaane ke liye kaisa hai? Bhagvan kisika juta khata hai? Kahin se juta khaya kya? Sabko juta bana diya. Ye Bhagvan hai. (God first. This is expertise. They are beaten up by Maya's boots and become God . . . that doesn't even make much sense, that if I am God then why am I beaten up by Maya's boots. Is God beaten up by boots? Does Kṛṣṇa ever get beaten up by boots? He made everyone condemned like shoes. That is God.). That is God is great. Nobody can defeat Him. Nobody can go beyond Him. Asama-ūrdhva . Nobody is equal to Him. Asama , ūrdhva . Nobody is greater than Him, nobody is equal to Him. That is God. Nowadays there are so many Gods, everyone God. So what kind of God? If God has a competitor, then what is the God? God has no competitor. Asama-ūrdhva . Everyone is down. Asama . Not equal, not ūrdhva . Then down. Two things . . . three things are there: equal, level; upper and lower. So there is no upper and there is no equal. Then all lower. Then He's the supreme controller, īśvara parama . In the lower level there may be īśvara . But they are not parama . Subordinate. Lokanātha: Āra saba bhṛtya . " Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa Īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya ." (CC Adi 5.142). Prabhupāda: Āra saba bhṛtya . God is one, and all others, they are subjects. Nityo nityānām . Why these two words are used? Nityānām . Everyone is nitya, but He's the supreme nitya . Cetanaś cetanānām . He's not dead body, dead matter. Cetana. Nitya . . . just as the Himalaya Parvata is standing forever. No. Cetana , living. So how He can be imperson? Himalaya Parvata may be very big, the sky may be big, but it is not cetana . Therefore this word is used, cetana , living. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). What is the difference? Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . That one nitya is providing, maintaining all other nityas . That is God. God is great. That is the meaning. So anyway, make your effort sincerely. The basic principle is this: induce them to chant and take prasādam , you'll be successful. Not very much Ustādi . Mantra de denge aur humko 35 dollars do jhamela ye sab. (We will give you a mantra, give us 35 dollars—all this is trouble.) Lokanātha: So we'll write to you, about the books. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Go to village to village. It is very noble attempt. And if you sincerely preach, Kṛṣṇa will . . . buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te . There is no doubt. *Indian man: Lakhon Guru Hai Jagat Mein Par Ek Bhi Nahi Kaam Ka, (There are many gurus in this world but all are useless,) Sab Svaarthi Hain Daam Ke Danka Bajate Naam Ka, (All are selfish for money glorifying their own names,) Visvas Ka Guru Ek Hi Hai Baaki Nahin Kuch Dhyan De, (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Jo Khaas Ki Pehchan De Wahi Sad*-Guru Pehchan Le. (And that Sad-guru is one who tells about the Supreme, identifying him.) Lokanātha: He joined us four days back. He's from Maharashtra. I'm taking him with me. Prabhupāda: He understands the philosophy. Wherefrom it is quoted? Indian boy: (Marathi) Lokanātha: Saint Tukārāma. Prabhupāda: Oh, Saint Tukārāma. He's a great saint. He is Māyāvādī or Vaiṣṇava? Lokanātha: Tukārāma is Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Oh! Tukārāma is Vaiṣṇava. Lokanātha: But this is different. Tukārāma met Caitanya Mahāprabhu at Mylapur. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tukārāma is a disciple of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then it is in order. What is the verse . . . *Indian man: Lakhon Guru Hai Jagat Mein Par Ek Bhi Nahi Kaam Ka, (There are many gurus in this world but all are useless, Sab Svaarthi Hain Daam Ke Danka Bajate Naam Ka, (All are selfish for money glorifying their own names,) Visvas Ka Guru Ek Hi Hai Baaki Nahin Kuch Dhyan De, (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Jo Khaas Ki Pehchan De Wahi Sad*-Guru Pehchan Le. (There is only one guru to be trusted, do not focus on any one else,) Nahi Hone Denge Barbaad Jo Denge Saccha Itihas Woh Hamare Guru Vaishnava Srila Prabhupāda. (He will not perish, He will give real history and testimony, he is our guru Vaisnava Srila Prabhupāda.) Lokanātha: It's a very nice quotation. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Ye hum logon ke liye koi muskil nahi hai, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu ne . . . (This is not all difficult for us, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said . . .) "By My order." That's all. That I was explaining to Mr. Gupta. If I say this bag of bead, you take it and give it to him, then where is my difficulty? There is no difficulty. This is called bead bag. You take it and give him—and you become guru . Call a spade a spade. And if you become Ustādi , "Kurukṣetra means this body, and this means this, and this means that," then you spoil. You spoil yourself also . . . (indistinct Bengali) (end) Conversation -- September 13, 1976, Vrndavana (Letter to Sai Baba) Pradyumna: This says: "God is an Indian." Puttaparthi. "God is an Indian. His contemporary avatāra . . ." Prabhupāda: Puttaparthi? What is that? Pradyumna: Puttaparthi is in Andhra. "His contemporary avatāra rests in the trinity of Sirti Baba, Sai Baba, and Prem Baba to come. So Satya Sai Baba, the second of the triple incarnation, asserted in the course of a marathon interview to add, 'In my present avatāra , I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity.' " Prabhupāda: So, to whom we shall address this letter? Pradyumna: Well, it depends where we want to send it for publishing. To this or to another magazine. Prabhupāda: He says that, "I'm avatāra ." So therefore it should be addressed to him. He says. So address to Satya Sai Baba. Where is he? At Bombay? Pradyumna: No, he stays at this Puttaparthi or in Bangalore. Prabhupāda: Puttaparthi . . . Pradyumna: That is a small village. Prabhupāda: Oh. Post office, Puttaparthi. And it is in, where? Bangalore? Pradyumna: That is in Andhra. *Prabhupāda: Andhra. Hmm. "Dear Sai Baba, just recently in the Blitz paper, published on"—give the date—"we are surprised to find one article, 'God is an Indian,' and you have claimed to become an incarnation of God to save the human society. What is the ground of your claiming as incarnation? And what you have done to save the human society? Will you explain for enlightenment of us? Or many of us? We have got the list of incarnations recorded in the Vedic scriptures and their respective activities also. So where is that record in the Vedic scripture about your appearing as incarnation? Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is fully described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . ." Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnationship, or . . . (indistinct) . . . what it should be? Pradyumna: Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation . . . Prabhupāda: There may be so many, but I mean to say Lord Kṛṣṇa is incarnation, so avatāratva . So what is the English, avatāratva ? *Pradyumna: The incarnation*-ness, or quality of being an incarnation. But that is not . . . the quality of being an incarnation is not . . . the most literal is incarnation-ness. *Prabhupāda: Therefore say that, "Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation*-ness is fully described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Similarly, Lord Rāmacandra's incarnation-ness or Lord Buddha's incarnation-ness, Lord Caitanya's incarnation-ness, we have got full information in the Vedic literatures." *Pradyumna: "Lord Rāma's incarnation*-ness, Lord Buddha's incarnation-ness . . ." Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya. Pradyumna: Oh. Prabhupāda: "Where is your incarnation is described? Will you kindly give the reference? Anyone can say like you, that one is incarnation, as it has become a fashion nowadays. But is that claim only is the proof of one's becoming incarnation? Some such unauthorized claim of becoming an incarnation is certainly ridiculous." Such . . . Pradyumna: ". . . unauthorized claim of one's becoming an incarnation . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . is certainly ridiculous. Then you have claimed to take form." What is he has written? Pradyumna: "Then you have claimed to take . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no. What he has written. Pradyumna: "In my present avatāra I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity." Prabhupāda: "So you have claimed to . . ." What is that? Again read it. Pradyumna: "I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity." *Prabhupāda: "So you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad*-gītā that God is never formless." Find out this verse, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ. Pradyumna: "Unintelligent men who know Me not think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Pradyumna: "Those who are worshipers of demigods have been described as less intelligent persons, and here the impersonalists are similarly described. Lord Kṛṣṇa in His personal form is here speaking before Arjuna, and still, due to ignorance, impersonalists argue that the Supreme Lord ultimately has no form. Yāmunācārya, a great devotee of the Lord in the disciplic succession from Rāmānujācārya, has written two very appropriate verses in this connection. He says: 'My dear Lord, devotees like Vyāsadeva and Nārada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing Vedānta and Upaniṣads and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead.' In the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is stated that the Personality of Godhead cannot be understood simply by study of the Vedānta literature. Only by the mercy of the Supreme Lord can the Personality of the Supreme be known. Therefore in this verse it is clearly stated that not only the worshipers of the demigods are less intelligent, but those nondevotees who are engaged in Vedānta and speculation on Vedic literature . . ." Prabhupāda: You can give up to that Yāmunācārya's quotation. What you have written? Pradyumna: So far? Everything? Or just . . . "Only, is one's word only . . ." Prabhupāda: What you have written. Pradyumna: "Dear Sai Baba, just recently . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Last what you have written. *Pradyumna: "Similarly, Lord Rāma's incarnation, Lord Buddha's incarnation, Lord Caitanya's incarnation*-ness, we have got full information from the Vedic scriptures. Where is your incarnation described? Will you kindly give the reference? Anyone can say like you, that one is an incarnation, as it has become a fashion nowadays. But is that claim only the proof of one's becoming an incarnation? Such unauthorized claim of one's becoming an incarnation is certainly ridiculous. Then you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad-gītā that God is never formless." *Prabhupāda: (dictating) "Only the rascals and less intelligent class of men think that God is formless, and when He incarnates, He takes a particular form. In this connection, a verse from Yāmunācārya may be quoted as follows." You have quoted the Bhagavad*-gītā ? That quote? Pradyumna: Well, it doesn't mention the Sanskrit here of that Yāmunācārya verse. *Prabhupāda: No, no. "In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said"—what you have written? Pradyumna: Oh. We can put the Sanskrit, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannam (BG 7.24). Prabhupāda: No, what you have written here? *Pradyumna: "Such unauthorized claim of one's becoming . . . then you have claimed to take a form of the formless God, but we see in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . ." Prabhupāda: That you have to quote. *Pradyumna: Yes. So, Bhagavad*-gītā 7.24, Sanskrit and translation. "But we see in the Bhagavad-gītā . . ." Prabhupāda: Read it. Pradyumna: "Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme." So ". . . that God is never formless. Only the rascals and less intelligent class of men think that God is formless and when He incarnates He takes a particular form. In this connection a verse from Yāmunācārya may be quoted as follows." Prabhupāda: So what is Yāmunacārya's quotation? Pradyumna: "My dear Lord, devotees like Vyāsadeva and Nārada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Prabhupāda: You have to quote that verse and the meaning. Pradyumna: But the Sanskrit wasn't give here. Prabhupāda: The Sanskrit is there. Pradyumna: No, but this verse from Yāmunācārya. *Prabhupāda: Oh. You'll find the Sanskrit in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Pradyumna: Oh. Which place? *Prabhupāda: In the Ādi*-līlā. Tam . It begins with tam . You can find out. Call, call him. (bell rings) Read. The Sanskrit verse is not . . . Pradyumna: No, it's not quoted here. Prabhupāda: Tam paribhāvita , like that. There is a verse. Pradyumna: Oh. I will find it. *Prabhupāda: Ādi*-līlā. Hari-śauri: Which volume? *Prabhupāda: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Hari-śauri: First volume? Prabhupāda: I think. There is, what is called, index? *Pradyumna: Yes, for Ādi*-līlā ? Where's the verse index? Hari-śauri: Which verse is it? If you give me the verse I can . . . *Pradyumna: It begins tam paribhāvita. T*-a-m. T-a-m. Tam paribhāvita something. Prabhupāda: You can bring here. Then? Pradyumna: So this quote goes on. "But those who in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing the Vedānta and the *Upaniṣads* and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead." Prabhupāda: "So in this connection, the statement of *Bhāgavatam* is especially important. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Brahman is impersonal, Paramātmā is localized, and Bhagavān is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead . . ." Pradyumna: "Brahman is the impersonal." *Prabhupāda: "Brahman is impersonal." Not "the." "Paramātmā is localized, and Bhagavān is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa after hearing Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa as follows." Quote this, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma (BG 10.12). Find out. No. Find out in the book. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Puruṣaṁ śāśvatam . . . Pradyumna: Puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam. Prabhupāda: Divyam . "So here Arjuna addresses Lord Kṛṣṇa as śāśvataṁ puruṣam, eternally the Personality of Godhead. It is never admitted that Supreme Lord is originally imperson. Puruṣam ." I have described puruṣam ? Yes. What you have written? *Pradyumna: "When Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa after hearing Bhagavad*-gītā , he addressed Kṛṣṇa as follows: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma (BG 10.12), etc. Here Kṛṣṇa addresses . . . here Arjuna addresses Kṛṣṇa as śāśvataṁ puruṣam , or the eternal Personality of Godhead. It is never admitted that the Supreme Lord is originally impersonal." Prabhupāda: Then, you read the other verses. Param . . . Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Then? Pradyumna: Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve devarṣir nāradas tathā . Prabhupāda: You have to quote this. Then? Read. Pradyumna: Translation? Prabhupāda: No, no. That you have to give a quotation and . . . then? What is next verse? *Pradyumna: In Bhagavad*-gītā after this? Prabhupāda: Āhus tvām, then next, what is next verse? Pradyumna: Ah, "Please tell me in detail of Your divine . . ." Prabhupāda: That's all right. Next. Pradyumna: "How should I meditate on You?" Prabhupāda: That's all right. Next. Pradyumna: "Tell me in detail, O Janārdana, of Your mighty potencies and glories, for I never tire of hearing . . ." Prabhupāda: The point is that, "Your personality cannot be understood without Your mercy." There is a verse. (Pradyumna looks for verse) Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve . Find out that verse. Pradyumna: Aham ? Prabhupāda: Āhus . Pradyumna: Oh, āhus . Prabhupāda: Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ. You read just now. Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: Next verse. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Vyaktyam ? Pradyumna: Vyaktim. Na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ . "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality." Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. Pradyumna: Oh, it says: *Hari-śauri: There's no verse index in any of the Ādi*-līlā . Prabhupāda: There is, but we are missing. Pradyumna: I have the Bengali. Prabhupāda: "The all ācāryas say that Your personality, although there are so many evidences in śāstra and authorized persons, still, the rascals cannot understand." So here is another verse, āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve . Pradyumna: So do you want to quote this verse? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Must quote. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: (dictating) "So one has to accept the statement of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, how He is originally the puruṣa , or person. Impersonal Brahman is expansion of the rays of His personal body, exactly like the sunshine is expansion of the rays of the sun*-god, Vivasvān. Vivasvān is a person in the sun globe, and Kṛṣṇa is also a person who spoke the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā long, long years before He spoke the same to Arjuna. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). Therefore the conclusion is that originally God is always a person. Impersonal Brahman is emanation from the personal God. In other words, God, personal God, is not from impersonal Brahman, but impersonal Brahman is from the personal God. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā as follows." Pradyumna: "Impersonal Brahman is an emanation of the personal God. It is not . . . it is not that the personal God is an emanation of . . . from . . . or it is that impersonal Brahman is an emanation. It is not that the personal God is an emanation of impersonal Brahman." Prabhupāda: "Impersonal Brahman is resting on the personal God, exactly like illumination of light is resting on the bulb. Not that the bulb is resting on the illuminated light." Pradyumna: "Exactly like illumination of light is resting . . ." *Prabhupāda: ". . . on the bulb, electric bulb. Not the bulb is resting on the illumination. Besides that, we learn from Bhagavad*-gītā , Second Chapter . . ." Find out that verse, "It is not that we were . . ." Pradyumna: Na tv evāham ? Prabhupāda: Ah. Pradyumna: "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." Prabhupāda: "So Kṛṣṇa has personally said to Arjuna that in the past He was person." Pradyumna: So "Kṛṣṇa, in person"? Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. "Kṛṣṇa, as a person, says to Arjuna that both of them existed in the past as person, and they'll continue to remain person in the future." Pradyumna: "Both of them existed in the past as person, and both of them shall continue to . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . remain as person in the future. So without knowing all this knowledge, a mūḍha accepts the incarnation of God as coming from imperson. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). Under this heading you have proved yourself to become a mūḍha . And how a mūḍha , or an ass, can become the incarnation of God?" Then? Read that Blitz paper, one after another. *Pradyumna: Then, this is the end of his quote, and then the editor, the writer, is speaking. "This may appear an extraordinarily controversial claim to those unfamiliar with the spiritual depths of Hindu religio*-philosophy. The latter totally accepts the avatāra concept, which broadly means the descent of the divine principle into human affairs. In the Bhagavad-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa intervenes to save . . ." Prabhupāda: That is the editor's. *Pradyumna: Yes, this is the editor's. "In the Bhagavad*-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa intervenes to save humanity from evil forces. The Purāṇas personify earth, the mother, as groaning under a similar burden to supplicate God for relief." Then heading, "Solution and cure to world's ills." "To Baba's devotees, the avatāra has similarly come to provide both the solution and the cure to a world living in terror of a nuclear holocaust. The false dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, puruṣa and deva , simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures, which prescribe . . ." Prabhupāda: What is that? Pradyumna: "The dichotomies." Prabhupāda: Dichot . . .? Pradyumna: Dichotomies Prabhupāda: What is that? Pradyumna: Dichotomy means some kind of distinction, to make a distinction. He said: "The dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, puruṣa and deva . . ." Differences or analysis of differences. ". . . simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures . . ." Prabhupāda: Why not? Pradyumna: ". . . which prescribe the assimilation of God in man and man in God as the basis of religion." Prabhupāda: This is another rascaldom. God is always distinct from man. Pradyumna: Sai Baba also quotes later . . . he is directly saying, also, later. Prabhupāda: What he says? Pradyumna: Now here's the quote. "Baba personifies this philosophy. As he told me, 'God is man and man is God. All of us have something of God, the divine spark, within us. All men are divine, like myself, with the spirit embodied in human flesh and bone. The only difference is that they are unaware of this Godhood.' " I'll get it for you. Prabhupāda: So? Pradyumna: Here he says: "The mission of the present avatāra is to make everybody realize that since the same God or divinity resides in everyone, people should respect, love, and . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no. If he resides in everyone, then why he has special claim? Pradyumna: Yes, well he says he has remembered. Prabhupāda: He remembers? How God can forget? Pradyumna: That he says. That he says here. He says that, "Take paddy or rice by way of an illustration. Every grain of rice is enclosed in a husk. You have to remove the husk to get the grain of rice. Now husk and rice both come from the same seed. Rice is the equivalent of God in man." Prabhupāda: But still husk is not rice. You cannot say husk is rice. Pradyumna: He says the husk . . . he says: "Rice is the equivalent of God in man, while the husk can be compared to desire which reduces God to man." Prabhupāda: No, no. Pradyumna: "Therefore my desire is life plus desire equals man. Life minus desire equals God." *Prabhupāda: (dictating) "You are desiring to become God. There cannot be no desire. But you're unceremoniously desiring to become God, although there is no proof in the śāstras . In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is accepted that the living entities are sparks of . . . part and parcel of God, Kṛṣṇa." *Pradyumna: "In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is accepted that the living entities . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . are part and parcel of God. But part is never equal to the whole." (break) Pradyumna: "So you can claim as a spark of God, as every living entity can claim, but you cannot claim as the . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . the Supreme Person with full power. That is misleading. You can show a little magic, as other magicians also can show . . ." Pradyumna: "You can show a little magic, as other magicians can also show." Prabhupāda: ". . . but you cannot show the full magic, as Kṛṣṇa displayed or Lord Rāmacandra displayed. Therefore your claim as a full power is completely false and blasphemous." Pradyumna: "Therefore your claim for full power is completely false . . ." Prabhupāda: ". . . and blasphemous." In this way find out. Pradyumna: Completely Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Completely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Now someone may bring up the one point, they say: "Well, if an avatāra comes, if He must show all kinds of great opulences and powers," then he says: "sometimes the incarnation shows this, but sometimes, like when Lord Caitanya appeared, He didn't show viśvarūpa or . . ." *Prabhupāda: But He never claimed that "I am avatāra ." But we understand from the śāstric evidence. He never claimed. Rather, when He was addressed as Kṛṣṇa He blocked His ears, "You don't say like that." He never claimed. He fully displayed Himself as a devotee, not Bhagavān. Therefore Gaurāṅgavāda is illegal. Gaurāṅga*-nāgarī . That is illegal. Moha-vāda or something like that. *Pradyumna: Gaurāṅga*-nāgarī , mentioning Lord Caitanya in the role of Kṛṣṇa dancing with the . . . Prabhupāda: In this way, find out the faulty statement and give him proof. He can claim . . . hmm. That's all. Pradyumna: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- September 16, 1976, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: All the Vaiṣṇavas, they are expert. Just like Rūpa, Sanātana, expert managment . . . (indistinct) . . . expert, even in worldly affairs. Not that "I am so much big devotee that I cannot manage worldly affairs." Expert. Must be expert. Dakṣa. (pause) Prabhupāda: So she can give me the fruits now. So . . . (break) . . . intelligent policy to kill India's spiritual status. Haṁsadūta: To kill India's spiritual status? Prabhupāda: That was their policy. Because there was one Britisher politician, Lord Macaulay. His report was . . . he studied the whole Indian situation. They were very expert politicians. So he reported that "If you keep Indians as Indians, you'll never be able to rule over them. They must be trained up in such a way that they would think their own culture as useless; this Western culture is very good. That impression must be there. Otherwise, you cannot rule over them." So the education and everything was going on very silently on this principle. Haṁsadūta: Imperceptibly they introduced this. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is their administration. And that was going on for the last two hundred years. So India lost. At last moment is . . . (break) . . . educated persons, they lost. And the mass of people, they were not educated. They have not lost, but they don't find any good example by the leaders. Haṁsadūta: No encouragement. Prabhupāda: No encouragement. They are simply staying somehow or other in their original culture, but there is no encouragement by the leaders. But the leaders have lost. This is the position. Just like Jawaharlal Nehru, he was a complete rascal about Indian culture. He did not think that Indian culture has any value. Therefore he wrote the book, Discovery of India . You know that? He has . . . it is little popular. Discovery of India. So long India was not discovered by opiate or something like, as the Russians say. Now it is now discovered. And that its leaders have to become Anglicized or Europeanized; industry, the Western way of living, eating, and everything. Pollution. Everything. Harikeśa: Abortion. *Prabhupāda: Yes, also. Otherwise, we have seen in our childhood how happy people were there. Simple. If one has five rupees' income per month, he's happy. I've seen it. Husband, wife, a small family, if he has got five rupees' income, they can maintain very nicely, happily. Why not? Suppose he has got five rupees' income. The rice was selling at four rupees. So two person, say one*-fourth kg, one-fourth share each. A gentleman cannot eat more than that. So means half a share. And the whole month, fifteen share. It is about one rupee eight annas . And further, one rupees eight annas add for vegetables and other things. With three rupees they can maintain, the husband and wife. And two rupees still there, he can spend for other purposes. I have seen it. Fresh vegetables, rice, this and . . . just like with banana leaf. The pots were of earthen, the wife is cooking, and she's utilizing dry foliage as fuel, a little temperature, everything is cooked. The husband takes one banana leaf and spreads, and the wife gives sufficient rice, vegetables. And things were so cheap, I have seen it. And fresh. Haṁsadūta: Yes, everything, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Anything fresh. Any cultivator, he has got little land surrounding his house, and he's growing vegetable like squash, chilis, and some spinage . . . spinach? Haṁsadūta: Spinach, śāka . Prabhupāda: Yes. And . . . Harikeśa: Eggplant. *Prabhupāda: Eggplant. And this banana. So whatever he's grown he takes in a basket, goes to the market, immediately sold. And they're all fresh. Collected in the morning, and it is sold by eight o'clock. All fresh vegetables. There was no export, there was no facility of transport. These rascals introduced transport, big*-scale transport, this railway. There was no railway. So transport means this villager, instead of selling locally or one mile away, he will dispatch in Calcutta. The Calcutta people, they are sitting on table and smoking, and printing paper money and exploit. Haṁsadūta: We had this experience when we were traveling with our bus from Calcutta to Vṛndāvana. We would want to buy watermelon from people who were growing right on the bank of the river, and he would have huge piles. And he would say: "No, I'm not selling. I'm transporting these to Delhi, where one cannot get watermelon." He's getting five times the price he would get in his local . . . Prabhupāda: And from Vṛndāvana, we have seen, they are exporting that drumbeats? Vṛndāvana? Hari-śauri: Drumsticks. Prabhupāda: Huh? Drumstick. So the transport is a dangerous thing. Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is a scheme. Prabhupāda: A local man cannot get. He's starving. And the man in big cities, he's doing nothing, he simply has got paper to sign, and paper money he's attracting. All production, and they are starving. This is modern civilization. Everything—milk, vegetable, fish, everything, this chānā . Otherwise, within the village you can get everything. Village economy, everything very cheap. And as soon as they got these transport facilities, the local men, they could not eat, and these lazy rascals, they are getting everything. Big, big cities like Calcutta, Bombay, they, millions of population, they are not producing anything. The producer is different man. They are simply artificially cheating them by paper money, and they take it. This is modern civilization. Haṁsadūta: And on the basis of this transporting of food, other industries grow. Like for instance packing. Sometimes the package costs more than the item which is being packaged. Prabhupāda: Especially in your country. Packing is more important than the . . . they sent me some presentation in a huge package. Haṁsadūta: Consequently, those persons who are farmers, they become discouraged. Prabhupāda: Now it has become a problem how to throw these packings. Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is another problem. Hari-śauri: Yes. Plastic they can't dispose of, glass. Prabhupāda: Simply creating problems. Lavana haila ithe gatila jagya . This modern civilization, they could not make any profit. They have created some problems, that's all. Very dangerous civilization. Haṁsadūta: There was one writer, he wrote a book about the cities, these big modern cities. And he said that in the future the price of labor will become so enormous that to break down the old buildings in these cities, which have been built to become obsolete, will be impossible. And the whole place will become swamp land by that. (end) Conversation -- September 17, 1976, Vrndavana *Prabhupāda: . . . one horse within the mouth—that is God. One hill. One Pūtanā, sucking the breast, her life goes. That is God. Why shall I take some cheap God? We are not so foolish. Here is the . . . so many great saintly persons hearing about God. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva*-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ ( SB 1.2.17). They are fools, hearing about Kṛṣṇa? Such great, great personalities? And Śukadeva Gosvāmī is speaking. Are they fools? All of them fools? One, two may be fool. They were wholesale fools? All the great personalities, they're all fools? Asita, Devala, Vyāsa, Nārada—all big personalities—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu—they're all fools? I may be fool. They are not fools. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Why shall I accept a rascal God? Varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ (SB 2.1.1). "Oh, you want to hear about Kṛṣṇa?" Varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ . Śukadeva was praising: "Oh, glorious, you have taken . . . yes." Here is God. Breathing, and innumerable universes are coming. Here is God. Sleeping and breathing is not unnatural. He is also— nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ ( Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13)—like us. But like not us. He can breathe and . . . that is the difference. Breathing is common. I breathe, He breathes. That's all right. But His breathing, my breathing is not the same breathing. He eats; I eat. That's all right. But when He eats, Mother Yaśodā sees all the universes are within Him. *They cannot understand this. That we are equal, that's all right, but there is difference. So far I am a living being, He's also a living being, but He's supreme living being. How? Because I breathe, some dust comes and goes out, and when He breathes some universes come out. This is the difference. So because He is breathing and I am breathing, therefore equal? No. Paśyaty acakṣuḥ . He sees, but not like us. Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). He's seeing every particular thing, anywhere. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu. I can see within my limit, or I can feel pains and pleasure within my . . . but He knows everything, everywhere. Sarva-kṣetreṣu. And because I cannot become like Him, therefore Māyāvādīs say kalpana , "This is imagination." He wants to make God like himself, and he wants to become like God. Therefore all description about God he thinks imagination, kalpana. Kalpana. Dr. Frog. Huh? "More than this water, the . . .? How it is possible? Atlantic Ocean, very, very big. What is that big? Maybe four feet, five?" Yes. Otherwise kalpana . It it is not within his "feet" estimation, then he's kalpana , imagination. This is their knowledge. I can think of three feet, four feet, five feet, ten feet, hundred feet—like that. And when I'm informed, "No, no, it is unlimited feet." "Ah, this is kalpana ." This is going on. *So, what other news? I have to send one letter to the governor. (break) Sūtyām abhijāta*-kovidāḥ. Yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan vipra mahad-guṇas tathā (SB 1.16.1). Where this class of literature is now? Yathā sūtyā , in the maternity home or maternity room, sūtyā. Abhijāta-kovidāḥ , the astrologers who can estimate the newly born child's destiny. Whatever they predicted, according to them, yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan . They said that, "This child will be like this"—exactly he became. Parīkṣid dvija-varya-śikṣayā, and being trained up by first-class brāhmaṇas , and the child came perfectly the king. Where is that king? Hari-śauri: There're no kings. *Prabhupāda: Where is that president? They're all drunkards, woman*-hunters, meat-eaters. Exactly according to prediction he became a young man, and he was entrusted with kingdom, "Now you rule." (sings verse) Each verse is a song. I wanted our students should do that. Hari-śauri: To learn how to sing them nicely. To learn how to sing them? *Prabhupāda: Yes. I can give them the tune. (Sanskrit) (break) . . . ghnantaṁ go*-mithunaṁ padā. This is Kali-yuga's king. Nṛpa-liṅga : dressed like king. Nṛpa-liṅga-dharam , but śūdra. Nṛpa-liṅga-dharaṁ śūdraṁ ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā (SB 1.16.4). Very expert in cow killing. Hari-śauri: That's a very accurate prediction. *Prabhupāda: Third*-class, fourth-class men, dressed like president and king. Business: plunder money from the citizens and kill cow. (pause) *Prabhupāda: Nineteen sixty*-five, 17 September, I landed at Boston. Hari-śauri: You've done a lot of things since then. (laughs) Devotee: Changed the world. Prabhupāda: Much water has gone down. Hari-śauri: (indistinct exchange with another devotee) (end) Conversation -- September 26, 1976, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: I was living with servant and two sons. So I helped to start . . . (break) . . . took from my friends, I collected some money and . . . so other important members said: "Why Abhaya Bābu is living separately? He should be the president of the Bombay." I never said, but they said. I was living separately. Then Prabhupāda requested, I mean to say, pleaded in my behalf so many things. He said three words, "It is better that he is living outside your company. He will do. When time will come, he'll do himself everything. You haven't got to recommend him." These very words. (break) . . . Kṛṣṇa require any president or any GBC. He's giving chance to everyone, that's all. Otherwise thousands of presidents and thousands of GBC may come and go, His work will go on. Kṛṣṇa is complete Himself. He doesn't require anyone's help. That is Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . sei hetu pracāra . One who has got life, he can preach. One is dead, what he can do? He used to say. Haṁsadūta: And I'm convinced, Prabhupāda, that in this temple, right here, you can make every week at least two, three Life Members, and you can sell thousands of rupees' worth of books. Yesterday I started one man, this boy Ikṣvāku from Germany. I said: "Just go around and greet people and show them around and sell them books." And the first few hours he sold seventy rupees' worth of books. And if I have a few people who just walk around and they walk right up to the guests and say: "How do you do? My name is so and so. I come from New York. What is your name? Where do you come from?" Prabhupāda: Last night all visitors came, all respectable gentlemen. Haṁsadūta: Last night four people came, they were all big businessmen. One man had been working in a big business in Germany. He spoke German perfectly well. He was an Indian man. He lives in Agra. And so many people. Because Vṛndāvana is the heart of India, every Indian comes once in his lifetime to Vṛndāvana . . . Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . if not more times. And everyone will come to our temple. Prabhupāda: Due to Vṛndāvana, our temple is advertised all over India. Everyone says. Haṁsadūta: We haven't even got to go out. We have simply to receive people nicely. *Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . from Vṛndāvana. I was residing here after retirement. That Rādhā*-Dāmodara, they are being paid monthly? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: You got the receipt? Akṣayānanda: No, I don't have it in my care. Prabhupāda: Huh? Akṣayānanda: I don't have it personally. Prabhupāda: Then who keeps it? Akṣayānanda: I don't know. I have to check. Prabhupāda: You do not know? Who is paying? Akṣayānanda: I'll check with Viśvambhara. I don't know, to be quite honest. Prabhupāda: Huh? Akṣayānanda: To be perfectly honest, I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not know? How is that? Akṣayānanda: Because I've been away so much, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All right. Still, you should know what is this and what is . . . Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . he was going to cleanse these rooms. So whether this is going on or not, you do not know. Then who knows it? Akṣayānanda: Viśvambhara will know, because he took full charge in my absence for all these things. *Haṁsadūta: You want me to take care of it? Your rooms at Rādhā*-Dāmodara? You want me to take care that they're cleaned and kept? Prabhupāda: That was being done. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I had it being done once a week. Prabhupāda: So nobody knows what is being done or . . . (break) So one was to control horses. So he became very much anxious, "What kind of whip I shall have to keep?" Haṁsadūta: First he has to get a horse. Prabhupāda: "Then, first of all, rascal, where is your horse?" (laughs) He became very much anxious, "What kind of whip?" Haṁsadūta: Okay. I'll get the horses. Prabhupāda: And anyone who can purchase a horse, he can very easily purchase any whip. Not that we shall be very much anxious for the whip first. First of all, let us have a horse. The difficulty is that no horse is coming. That is the difficulty. Attract horse, and you'll find so many. Haṁsadūta: Okay. (end) Conversation -- September 29, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation with U.N. Doctor) Prabhupāda: Na taj janeṣu abhijñeṣu. Abhijñaḥ janeṣu , no attachment. Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Nārada Muni, all the ācāryas , Rāmānujācārya, they have no respect for these. They're creating their howling habits, that's all. How there can be peace? Doctor: Now, when the Kṛṣṇa mantras . . . Prabhupāda: Why do you say Kṛṣṇa panthā ? Doctor: No, mantra s. I have come to mantra . Klīṁ kṛṣṇāya govindāya gopījanavallabhāya namaḥ. Is that not a very powerful Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor: That is better than Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No. Hare Kṛṣṇa is therefore called mahā*-mantra . Doctor: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. Prabhupāda: Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Doctor: This you regard as the . . . higher than any other . . . *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Therefore it is called mahā*-mantra . *Doctor: But I was told that the Sudarśana*-cakra words, mahāmāla parakramāyā maha patanivaya bhakta jane kalpanaya , that is a very powerful mantra . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything in relationship with God is powerful. But the name in this age is the most powerful: kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet ( SB 12.3.51). Doctor: And the word oṁ has been praised in the *Upaniṣads* , but . . . *Prabhupāda: Oṁ, veda, praṇavaḥ sarva*-vedeṣu . Kṛṣṇa says that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu (BG 7.8). Praṇava is oṁkāra. Sarva-vedeṣu , "That praṇava I am." That is sound representation of Kṛṣṇa. Doctor: Then that one word as a mantra , is it not . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor: . . . the highest sort of word? *Prabhupāda: No. If you keep Kṛṣṇa that, "This praṇava is the sound representation of Kṛṣṇa," then it is all right. If you think it is separately powerful than Kṛṣṇa, that is nāma*-aparādha . Doctor: I understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you accept it as Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am praṇava ," if you do remember Kṛṣṇa by chanting oṁkāra , then it is all right. Doctor: Otherwise, oṁ is only given to sannyāsīs ? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. It is not mentioned there. Anyone chanting Vedic mantra , he has to begin with oṁkāra . Doctor: All mantra s begin with oṁ and end with oṁ . *Prabhupāda: Yes, oṁkāra . So sarva*-vedeṣu. Doctor: So all the essential *Vedas* . *Prabhupāda: Praṇavaḥ sarva*-vedeṣu . This is beginning. Just like we take Bhāgavatam, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Doctor: Prabhupāda: The difficulty is that we consider Kṛṣṇa is different from oṁkāra . Doctor: That is a mistake. Prabhupāda: That is a mistake. Doctor: But then Kṛṣṇa is not different from Brahman. Prabhupāda: If you take this oṁkāra as Kṛṣṇa's sound representation, then it is all right. Doctor: Then it is as good as chanting "Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor: But it does not give . . . Prabhupāda: But because Kṛṣṇa is remembered, if you take oṁkāra as Kṛṣṇa's sound representation then Kṛṣṇa is remembered. Doctor: But Kṛṣṇa is three letters. Oṁ is one. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Doctor: In the last minute when you are dying you can feel it, easily feel it. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has many names. Kṛṣṇa has name Govinda. It is not three letters, it is more than that. Kṛṣṇa has so many thousands names. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta (BS 5.33). So therefore Kṛṣṇa advises for the beginners, "Just try to remember Me in this way— raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8): I am the taste of the water." The water you must be drinking twice, thrice, four times. So when you drink water, the taste satisfies your thirst. So if you simply remember, "This taste is Kṛṣṇa," that is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Doctor: When you eat food, that also, the taste is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, especially of the water. Kṛṣṇa is everything, but specifically He mentions, "The taste of the water I am." So you remember this. Doctor: That's very interesting. So every time you drink water . . . Prabhupāda: You can remember Kṛṣṇa. Where is the wrong, and what is the loss there? But you follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction. (someone enters) Yes, sit down. There is no difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. (microphone moves) Doctor: Why do you tape record? Hari-śauri: Everything Prabhupāda speaks we tape record, and then everyone in the world can listen. Doctor: Someone said that the word oṁ is given to sannyāsīs , and it . . . Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa does not say. Doctor: It's not so. Prabhupāda: "Someone," we don't take authority. "Someone." There are so many "someones." We don't care for them. What Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. That's all. *Doctor: But this Kaṭha*-Upaniṣad praises oṁ . *Prabhupāda: Yes, Upaniṣad is giving lesson, counterpart of this material world. Because . . . just like you are stressing on oṁkāra because you do not give much importance to Kṛṣṇa. In the material world, Kṛṣṇa . . . they think Kṛṣṇa is one of the historical person. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). So Upaniṣad is teaching us in an indirect way about the importance of Kṛṣṇa. Upa*-niṣat : to bring you nearby. Because you have got so many material conception, if we say that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," you may not like it. Therefore . . . oṁkāra is Kṛṣṇa. So you are giving lesson on oṁkāra . Although Kṛṣṇa and oṁkāra is not different, but you'll not like Kṛṣṇa. In your present position you'll not like Kṛṣṇa's name. Doctor: Why? Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are stressing . . . Doctor: No, I have read all this, and I am trying to reconcile. Prabhupāda: Ah. So that is for the neophytes. Doctor: The reconciliation is there. Oṁ is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is oṁ . Prabhupāda: So if Kṛṣṇa is . . . if you are convinced, then where is the objection of Hare Kṛṣṇa? Doctor: No, no. Prabhupāda: Why should you bring so many objections? Doctor: Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. *Doctor: Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Prabhupāda: But because I do not like, therefore *Upaniṣads* give another chance that, "Chant oṁkāra ." That is the way. Because unless one is completely purified, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhajana is possible when one is completely free from all kinds of sinful activities. So not everyone is freed from sinful activities. Therefore the indirect way. Otherwise, Upaniṣad is Veda . Doctor: Based on *Vedas* . Right. Prabhupāda: Based. Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). By studying *Vedas* , *Upaniṣads* , if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, that means your study is not complete. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After studying this indirect information of Kṛṣṇa, when one is actually a learned, wise man, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is very rarely found. This is fact. So if one is intelligent, that if only the most intelligent person, after many, many births one has to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, why not do it immediately? Why shall I wait for many, many births? That is intelligence. *Doctor: Śrī*-kṛṣṇas tu śaraṇaṁ mama. Prabhupāda: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). That is intelligence. But that intelligence is not possible for ordinary persons. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. One who gets this intelligence, such kind of mahātmā is very, very rarely found. To take it immediately, ah, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti , that is very difficult. It is not so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa or to accept Kṛṣṇa as all in all. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam . But if you take it, you are fortunate. Doctor: And the only way to attain is reciting the name. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Do that. Therefore the temple is there. Everyone may come and see Kṛṣṇa and think of Him. What is the difficulty? But he'll not come. He has concluded Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra . God is nirākāra . Doctor: Then Kṛṣṇa will not come. Prabhupāda: Well, now, Kṛṣṇa . . . you . . . whatever you think, that is your business, but Kṛṣṇa is there everywhere. Doctor: He is nirākāra and sākāra . Prabhupāda: Nirākāra means He has no material ākāra . That is nirākāra. Ākāra means we have got . . . just like I have conception of you. So this ākāra is your material ākāra . It is not your real ākāra. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). The real person is within the body, but we have no connection with the real body. We see this outward . . . just like seeing his dress, his . . . that's all. Doctor: How to find the . . .? How to get to the ātman , the inner body? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the first instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that first of all, try to understand what is the person. So because we have no eyes to see, indirectly, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram . . . (BG 2.13). Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ (BG 2.18). So many things. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ . So many indirect way because we cannot directly perceive. Doctor: Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ (BG 2.23). Prabhupāda: What is called? Definition by negation. Nainaṁ chindanti —negation. So that you can have some idea. Doctor: Of what it is. Prabhupāda: It is not material. Because matter, chindanti , any matter, it can be destroyed. It can be cut into pieces, it can be melted in fire, it can be moistened. So when we cannot understand things, it is given in the definition of negation. Doctor: But then it's much better to worship God in form. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is intelligence. If you accept Kṛṣṇa immediately, man*-manā bhava mad . . . then your life is successful. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśaya (BG 18.65), He said. But they are not interested. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is a historical person. Why shall I think of Him? I shall think of oṁkāra ." You cannot think of oṁkāra . You can hear. And as soon as you think of oṁkāra , it comes form. There is no impersonality. It again becomes personal. So they want to avoid personality and as well as think of Him—it becomes a very troublesome job. Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām (BG 12.5). They cannot think of avyakta , impersonal. But they are trying to think of. And that is a very troublesome job. Kleśala eva avaśiṣyate . Such attempt means he simply gets the result of his hard endeavor. That's all. He doesn't get any substance. Doctor: So with faith accept the . . . Prabhupāda: No faith—it is fact. Faith is blind. Doctor: Faith is blind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Faith with good knowledge, that is nice. If you have good knowledge of Kṛṣṇa and you have faith, that is very good. But if you . . . just like Māyāvādīs, they say: "Imagine Kṛṣṇa as God." They say: "Imagine." Doctor: That is no good. *Prabhupāda: They are no good. Kalpana . They say kalpana. Sādhakānāṁ gitarthaya brahma*-rūpa-kalpana. Rūpa-kalpana . But Kṛṣṇa's rūpa is not kalpana; it is fact. So kalpana is not faith, it is blind. "Let me imagine some form of Kṛṣṇa." And therefore gradually, they come down to the position that any form you imagine as God, that is all right. They have come to this degradation. Doctor: That you can, any form . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Any form you imagine that he is God, that will give you success. They say like that. Doctor: I think I have taken too much of time. Prabhupāda: I am going there at six. Doctor: Words of enlightenment. Hari-śauri: Have you got any of Prabhupāda's books? *Doctor: I have got some. I bought all the volumes of translation of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . I have got all of them. But some of them have not arrived from United States, the latest ones. And I have got . . . *Hari-śauri: Bhagavad*-gītā . That's very nice. Prabhupāda: You are staying in New Delhi? Doctor: I stay in the Hague and come to New Delhi when there are no cases. Prabhupāda: Hague? Doctor: Holland. Prabhupāda: Holland. That is the international court? Doctor: Yes, the court case located, the headquarters. Prabhupāda: I went somewhere, that is also international. In Geneva, I think. Is there any . . .? Doctor: Geneva is another headquarters of the . . . of the United Nations. New York, Geneva. But the court is in the Hague. Prabhupāda: So I went to that place in Geneva. Doctor: Geneva has got so many specialized agencies of the United Nations, like the I.L.O. and so on. Prabhupāda: Do you think United Nation is making any tangible progress? Doctor: Sir, it at least brings people together under one umbrella to discuss. If you did not have that . . . Prabhupāda: But discussion, that I have already explained. Doctor: Sir, maybe, but if you don't discuss, you'll fight. Because if aim we don't meet at all, then they will have the struggle. *Prabhupāda: No. If you have no idea how to come to the conclusion, ciraṁ vicinvan (SB 10.14.29), you can forever go on discussing, you'll never come . . . you do not know what is the aim. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). Doctor: May be so, but if two people instead of coming to blows come together to talk, it is a step in the right direction. Prabhupāda: No right direction, because he does not know what is the aim. Doctor: They both want to have peace, so they at least try to . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone wants that. But if he does not know how to attain peace, then you'll go on discussing forever. That is going on. Doctor: But it is still a step in the right direction . . . Prabhupāda: I don't think there is any advancement. Doctor: . . . otherwise, what is the aim? Prabhupāda: Otherwise, there is; *but you don't take, how it can be done? In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated: This is the process. But if you don't take it . . . Doctor: But if that realization does not dawn . . . 'till that realization . . . Prabhupāda: Then you go on barking. That is another thing. Doctor: (laughs) It's better to bark than to fight. Prabhupāda: Then that is your satisfaction. You can do that peacefully. Doctor: One day after barking they will come to a conclusion. *Prabhupāda: No, that is . . . let it be known, fact, that that will never come, if you do not know what is the aim. That is stated in the . . . durāśayā ye bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. This is, means, a bad hope, that by this external exhibition of manipulation of energy, they will come to peace. It is not possible. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ adānta-gobhir . . . (SB 7.5.31). Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This kind of leading is made by the blind leaders. If the leaders are blind and the followers are blind, what result will be there? Doctor: That is true, sir, but that stage has not come. One day it will come. But till that stage and that realization of . . . *Prabhupāda: No, stage is there. But if the obstinate persons, they do not take it . . . here it is clearly said . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29): "I am the proprietor of all the lands, all the planets." So how can you say no? There must be someone proprietor. Doctor: But then God Himself has created the ego in man. Prabhupāda: No, no. He has created . . . Doctor: God is the creator. He's also the creator of the ego of man. Prabhupāda: He has created ego. That is a fact. But you are utilizing the ego in a different way. Doctor: Because the realization is not there. Prabhupāda: He is giving the intelligence, but you are not accepting. Doctor: Maybe so. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difficulty. He has come to give you instruction, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). When you forget—there is glānir , discrepancies, in the discharge of your duties—He comes to give you instruction, but you don't accept. Now what can be done? The teacher is giving you instruction, but you don't accept. Then how you'll be educated? This is going on. Mūḍho nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25). They do not accept. They will write comments on Bhagavad*-gītā in their own way. You see? Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Yes. As it is. Don't comment in your own way. You'll not get any profit. Take, for example, any law, government law. Can I comment in my own way? Doctor: No. *Prabhupāda: Then why you comment on Bhagavad*-gītā ? Doctor: The law is meant for obedience. Prabhupāda: That's all. Similarly, if you accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord, then whatever He has said . . . just like Arjuna says, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14): "Whatever you are saying, Keśava, I accept them in total." That is acceptance. Doctor: (laughs) Along this note, I'll . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 30, 1976, Vrndavana *Prabhupāda: One boy, he was coming to me. In that 100 . . . (break) about 171st Street, all my things were stolen. My tape recorder, typewriter. Fortunately they did not touch my manuscript that I was writing, typing my books. So some money was stolen. Then one boy, he was coming to me, he told me, "Please come to my place." A loft, Bowery Street. I did not know the Bowery Street was not a good quarter. All bums and drunks. When I see them, one Jewish friend, he had electrical shop, he told me, "Swāmījī, you have gone to Bowery Street? Oh, it is not your place." I did not know that it is full of drunkards. But they were lying down in front of my door, but they were respectful. When I'd go, these drunkard comes, and they respectfully give me ways. And they would lie down on urine and something like that, on water. Then the boy who took me there . . . he was Murray. His last title was Murray. And he was taking LSD. So since I went there, he did not go to work. Otherwise, he was working and getting daily twenty*-five dollars. In some dock he was working. Since I went, he stopped working, and I had to pay 125 dollars for the loft. One lady was the landlord. *So I was going on. Some people were coming. Then Mukunda began to come, his wife, and another black boy, half*-black. Yeargen, Karlāpati. I gave him name, Karlāpati. He was coming. Then one day that boy Murray, he showed some crazy features. So I thought, "It is dangerous to live with him." So I approached Mukunda. Mukunda had no place, still I asked him. So I kept my goods at Mukunda's house and went to live with Yeargen. That is another loft. So in this way, with great hardship—sometime here, sometime there—in this way, I got two hundred dollars by selling book, and then I asked Mukunda to find out an apartment. He found this apartment, 26 Second Avenue: one storefront down and one living quarters up. So I found it very convenient. Down I would lecture and hold kīrtana . So he charged 75 dollars per month for the apartment, small apartment. I think in a space like this room or less than that, everything is there. There was kitchen, there was shower, and two rooms. I think less than this. About two-thirds of this room, and everything there. So I shifted there. And there I remained up to May 1967, I think. *Then I got heart attack. Then I went to Stenson Beach. Then I could not improve my health. No, first of all I went to San Francisco. There also I could not . . . I could not sleep home at night. There was throbbing in the heart. Kīrtanānanda, he was serving me. So many difficulties. Then I came back to India in 1967, July. Here also not very much improvement. Then again I went to Los Angeles. There also one symptom developed, always some sound in the ear, goh*-goh-goh-goh-goh. It was so disturbing, almost half-mad. And then Los Angeles. Then I think I went to Seattle. In this way, in the beginning there were so many difficulties. Montreal. I took Canadian citizenship. America I could not get. So one gentleman in the immigration department, he said: "Swāmījī, you go to Canada, and from there you try. It will be easier." Actually, it acted. The Canadian Consulate General was a black man, American black man. So in the consulate I applied for citizenship . . . aiye , immigration, and he was sympathetic. He saw my Teachings of Lord Caitanya and he became attracted. So he settled up, "This gentleman must be allowed." So he expedited the matter within three months. And then I became immigrant in the USA. Then again I came back in Los Angeles, and then we took that house, La Cienega. Devotee: La Cienega Boulevard. Prabhupāda: That man also wanted to kick out after one year. Then we had no place. Then, by Kṛṣṇa's grace, we got this house present. At that time I got fifty thousand dollars. So I advanced them down payment. And it is 225 hundred . . . thousand. I think they are still paying two thousand. Twelve years. How many years passed? Hari-śauri: That was in '69? Prabhupāda: Yes. '68 I got immigration, and '69. Hmm. It is a long history, checkered history. (pause) Prabhupāda: So preaching is independent. If you have got desire, you can preach in any circumstances and Kṛṣṇa will help you. I have practically experienced. I went to your country without any help, without any money, alone. And gradually things developed. (break) . . . all foreigners. I did not approach any Indian. I did not approach anyone, but Kṛṣṇa sent friends, gradually developed. Akṣayānanda: There's a man from Gujarat that wants to see you, Prabhupāda. He saw our center in Chicago. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: He saw our center in Chicago. Prabhupāda: Oh. Get this light. Light. (end) Conversation -- October 3, 1976, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: . . . position. It is not a good position. Hari-śauri: (looking at photo) No, it's not very clean. I was just wondering who the other two were. Prabhupāda: I took sannyāsa from him. Hari-śauri: Who is that? Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa has to be taken from a sannyāsī , so I took sannyāsa from him. Hari-śauri: Yes, I was wondering what his name was. Prabhupāda: Oh, his name is Keśava Mahārāja. He's one of my Godbrothers. He's also one of my Godbrothers. Hari-śauri: And he took it the same time. Prabhupāda: They are now dead and gone. Hari-śauri: Yes. This man, he looks very old already. The other one. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was . . . he is of my age, middle. The other one, he was older. Hari-śauri: Harikeśa said the day before you took sannyāsa you were gored by a cow or something? A cow hit you in the stomach? Prabhupāda: Before? Hari-śauri: The day before you took sannyāsa ? Prabhupāda: No. No. (laughing) Hari-śauri: I was told that. I don't know whether it was . . . or some time around then. Prabhupāda: That was long before. Hari-śauri: Oh, that was a long time. Prabhupāda: I took sannyāsa sometime in '59, and . . . no, that is after I took sannyāsa . No, no. Before, yes. Before or after . . . Hari-śauri: He said it was the day before. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No. That was an incident in Delhi. Now I think it was . . . it was before. Before. That was sometime in 19 . . . 56. Hari-śauri: Oh, that's a long time before. Prabhupāda: And I took sannyāsa in 1959. Hari-śauri: That was in Vṛndāvana or Delhi? Prabhupāda: No, Delhi. Vānaprastha . I was alone. But my paper was going on, Back to Godhead . In Delhi I was alone. I was doing everything—editing, selling, collecting, cooking. Hari-śauri: There was no Godbrothers helping at all? Prabhupāda: I did not take. They wanted. I did not take. Hari-śauri: Did you ever think at that time that you would be able to expand or . . . *Prabhupāda: I was trying to do. It was a struggle at that time. At that time I lived with some of my Godbrothers, but I did not like, and I left their temple and I was living alone. Then in Imlitala . . . you know there? Imlitala, Seva*-kunj there is a . . . Hari-śauri: No, I'm not familiar. Prabhupāda: My Godbrother's temple. He had a temple in Delhi, Karol Bagh. I left Jhansi and came to Mathurā. I lived there for few months. Then I went to Delhi. In this way, here, there. Hari-śauri: The boy at the front, he's reading one of your old Bhāgavatams . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: He has one of your original Bhāgavatams . Prabhupāda: Who? Hari-śauri: The boy at the front that's on guard. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Akṣaya, the boy that guards. He's been reading one of your original Bhāgavatams , the 1.1. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Hari-śauri: And I was looking at the front, and it gives your residence in Vṛndāvana at Rādhā*-Dāmodara and your office in Delhi. Prabhupāda: It was not unpleasant. When I was living alone, doing everything, it was not unpleasant. I was . . . very nice. That was an accident. Otherwise, it was not unpleasant. Alone, everything I was doing. Rather, I had not so much anxiety about management. Even my, this son came to live with me. I said: "No, you don't." Hari-śauri: Who was that? Vrindavan there? Prabhupāda: Hmm. They sent, my family, to go and live with me. He came twice, thrice. The reason is that I asked him, "If you want to live with me, then you have to live with me as sannyāsī, brahmacārī ." Hari-śauri: Yeah . . . and he couldn't. Prabhupāda: Otherwise . . . from 1954, '55. No, up to '54 . . . 1950 . . . I left home 1950. From '50 to '54 I lived in Jhansi. Hari-śauri: That was when you started the League of Devotees? Prabhupāda: Hmm. At that time there were many students. They were not my disciples, but they were coming. Like . . . that Prabhākāra? Hari-śauri: Yes, Prabhākāra Ācārya. Prabhupāda: He was the head. Hari-śauri: (laughs) You were teaching Vaiṣṇavism or . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. I wanted to start from there. It was very nice, big house. But this K. Munshi's wife tactfully wanted me to . . . the Governor's wife. That was a very big house. Hari-śauri: Oh, there were some politics. I didn't know. Prabhupāda: But he peacefully took it. I could have fought, but I did not like. All the pleaders in Jhansi, they said: "Don't leave." She was pressing through the collector, through the manager. That house belonged to some zamindar , but it was under the management of another man, Reba Shankara. So he was proprietor of one cinema hall. So the governor's wife was pressing him through the collector, because the license has to be renewed from the collector. Collector was insisting that, "You give that house, Lilavati Munshi." Indirectly. "Otherwise, your license will not be issued." Hari-śauri: They didn't leave you very much choice. Prabhupāda: I thought, I could not do something tangible. That's a fact. Somehow or other, I thought, "Let me go to Vṛndāvana. What is the use of fighting?" Otherwise, all the big lawyers in Jhansi, they were my friends. They said that, "You shall not go. We shall arrange." I thought that, "I have left my home, for this reason I am going to, again, litigation. I don't want this house. Let her do something." Hari-śauri: The League of Devotees, was that Godbrothers again? Or . . .? Was that some Godbrothers that you joined up with, or was that just . . . Prabhupāda: No, after leaving Jhansi I went to this Godbrother. Hari-śauri: Keśava. *Prabhupāda: I lived there for few months. Then I went to another Godbrother, that Imlitala, Delhi. Then I left there. I used to live alone in Delhi. Then I took one house in Keśī*-ghāṭa. Then the Rādhā-Dāmodara men, they called me that, "You can live here. We give you two rooms. We don't charge. We give you the place." I came to Rādhā-Dāmodara. And from Rādhā-Dāmodara temple I went USA. Hari-śauri: I was just wondering what exactly the League of Devotees was. Prabhupāda: Oh, League was that, that was . . . I was trying to collect some devotees. Some of them, they were medical . . . yes. Medical students. So they came and used to live with me. But still, I lived there for two years, from 1954 to '56. I had some surgical operation in my testicles there. They were taking care. This Prabhākāra and . . . they were not full time; they were students, that's all. They were living with me. Hari-śauri: But your Bhāgavatams , it says they were published by the League of Devotees. Does that just mean yourself, or there were others? Prabhupāda: (laughs) That was . . . League of Devotees was my organization. Therefore I gave that name. Hari-śauri: But actually it was just you. Oh. Prabhupāda: That League of Devotees, I was alone doing. (laughs) Hari-śauri: (laughing) I was trying to understand who it could be. Prabhupāda: I am everything at that time. There were some students, but they were not very active. I was doing everything. That League of Devotees means I am everything. I wanted to organize with this Prabhākāra Miśra and others, but they were not interested to be . . . Hari-śauri: Not to become Vaiṣṇavas. *Prabhupāda: No, to devote whole time. They were . . . just like Prabhākāra comes still. But if you ask him to do full*-time work, that he'll not do. Therefore I did not initiate others. He was initiated, harinam . But they were all learned scholars, Sanskrit. Hari-śauri: Do any of them come now? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Do any of them come now apart from Prabhākāra? Prabhupāda: Hmm? No, they are, they have gone in the . . . they are practicing as medical men. They were students, medical students. Now they are practicing. Hari-śauri: They don't come to see you or anything now? Prabhupāda: Sometime they came. Long time it is passed. That was in 1956 or '55. No, '54. Hari-śauri: In Jhansi. Prabhupāda: So, twenty years past. More than twenty years. You can speak of twenty years' history. What is that? Devotee: Um. (end) Conversation -- October 4, 1976, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: People have got already very respect now for the . . . (break) You should maintain the temple. They already call it angrej (English) temple. But still people come. But if you make a mleccha temple . . . actually, (laughs) they can say like that, but still they come. But their awe and veneration may be disturbed . . . may not be disturbed. That is management. Hari-śauri: One of the things they haven't been able to criticize us for is our Deity worship. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: One of the things they can't criticize is our Deity worship, because it's a lot better than anywhere else. Prabhupāda: But we are not above criticism. Hari-śauri: Oh, no, they criticize us for plenty of other things. Akṣayānanda: So many discrepancies. Even that does not mean . . . Hari-śauri: That's one point . . . that was one point in our favor, so we should maintain it. Prabhupāda: The servant should be kept only when that is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, everything should be done by us. Haṁsadūta: I understand that, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: They are paying two thousand rupees. Haṁsadūta: 'Till now, as far as possible, I've let a number of people go already. But until I can get the devotees to do these engagements, I can't let the servant go. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right, but devotees, why they shall not do? Haṁsadūta: Well, that is the . . . Prabhupāda: If they are unwilling to do, then they must remain in the guesthouse as a respectable guest. Haṁsadūta: I'm finding that's happening. I have so many devotees who stay in the guesthouse, because they're not willing to be engaged. Prabhupāda: They are paying? Haṁsadūta: They are paying, yes. So it will have to be dealt with very, very tactfully, because for a long time there's been so many devotees here who just have not been engaged. And now someone is coming and he's trying to capture them . . . Prabhupāda: Reluctant to work. Haṁsadūta: . . . trying to take account of their time, and they become upset. They think, "Oh, now this man is going to take my time." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Haṁsadūta: Just for example . . . (break) ". . . chanting from nine to twelve, could you please chant then?" She became furious. She said: "I am already making garlands for four hours. I have no time." Prabhupāda: No, no, if she is making garlands, that is another thing. *Haṁsadūta: I know, but it's only four hours, and I said there are twenty*-four hours, so that leaves twenty hours left over. It will take a little time to account their time and convince them that they have to accept more and more engagement. Hari-śauri: It's like pulling a tooth. Prabhupāda: No, if somebody is engaged in some business, so he may not chant. That concession may be given. But chanting . . . Haṁsadūta: But, actually . . . Prabhupāda: It is not very compulsory. Take it. *Haṁsadūta: But if we want to have a twenty*-four-hour kīrtana , I was speaking . . . Prabhupāda: If that is not available, not possible, don't be very serious. But these things must be done. Haṁsadūta: Yes. It's just that I want to comply with all your desires. *Prabhupāda: That may be taken as voluntarily. But nobody can sit idly. That is the point. If one is engaged in making for flower garland, all right, you may not take him. It is not compulsory for you. The twenty*-four-hours kīrtana may . . . suppose if we haven't got sufficient men, it is not possible. It is required if there is sufficient men and they are not . . . we must see that they are not wasting uselessly time. That is the . . . if they are engaged in some business, there is no compulsory that he has to go and chant. But these things are . . . *Śrī*-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau. That is compulsory. It must be done by you or me or . . . it must be done early in the morning. Whole temple should be . . . there is sufficient water supply in the pipe. Simply it takes half an hour. It is neglected. I see the temple is not washed. There's so much dust. Akṣayānanda: We used to wash it three times a day. Prabhupāda: How it is stopped? Akṣayānanda: With great difficulty, of course. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: With great difficulty. But still, it can be done. Prabhupāda: So these devotees, they come here not to work. Akṣayānanda: It is a fashion. They come to be bābājīs . Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Akṣayānanda: Like that. Consciousness is like that. Haṁsadūta: Yesterday two girls came. One came from Paris and one came from Australia. When I asked them, "Did anyone send you for a particular engagement?" They said: "No, I just left." "How did you get your money?" "From my family." Then, "Why did you come?" "We just wanted to see Vṛndāvana," and like that. And in this way, every day someone is coming, and as soon as I want to . . . they will say: "Well, I didn't come for this. I came . . ." Prabhupāda: But that's all right, if they then remain in the paying guest. Haṁsadūta: Yes. I don't want to discourage them, but at the same time I can't have people just sitting around. Prabhupāda: No, those who are coming for excursion, they can remain in the paying guest room. Pay for food, pay for . . . otherwise, one has to be engaged. Devotee must voluntarily engage. Why one has to be requested? They should be very glad. Hari-śauri: They're not very conscious about doing service. Prabhupāda: But this is the service. Akṣayānanda: He used to be the temple commander, Hari-śauri. He had a very difficult time, before, about a year ago, I think. He used to be the temple commander, and nobody would . . . Hari-śauri: I had to practically throw them out the room sometimes to do some work. Akṣayānanda: This center particularly has just always been like that. (break) Haṁsadūta: All the anxiety is how to get some fruit to maintain their body nicely. Very few devotees can actually accept engagement and maintain good health and a good consciousness, because the change for Western people for India is so extraordinary that it disturbs their mind, and consequently their body is disturbed, and then all they think about is how to maintain their body. Akṣayānanda: They're used to eating large quantities of food. Here it cannot be done. Haṁsadūta: And if I ask them . . . they're used to eating huge amounts of very rich foods. Prabhupāda: Where? Hari-śauri: In the West. Haṁsadūta: In the Western temples. They get so many nice foodstuffs which are not available here, and when they become sick, then they . . . Prabhupāda: What rich food? Haṁsadūta: Oh, like sour cream and butter and so many things, and all kinds of fruits and vegetables. Akṣayānanda: In the West, the devotees must eat about four times as much as the ones in India who are not sick. The ones in India . . . Prabhupāda: I see that here they eat more. Hari-śauri: They appear to eat a lot. But I don't know. The food here is not . . . Akṣayānanda: Not so rich. Hari-śauri: It's not got so much nutritional value. Akṣayānanda: It's simpler. Hari-śauri: But I've seen boys here, they have been here a year or two years and they've had dysentery constantly, because they cannot control their tongues. They eat, and then they get sick, they get dysentery, so they say: "Oh, I need boiled this and fruit and this and that." But then again you see them on the first feast, or something like that, they're eating kachorī or this or that, stuff cooked in ghee. And then immediately they become sick again, and they can't do any work all the time, and at the same time they refuse to control their tongues to get better. They stay on that platform. Always sick, but not eating the correct food. Haṁsadūta: This is one of our biggest problems. Just as you say, when someone gets sick he should fast. I tell them, "Stop eating. You'll get well immediately. If you have fever, don't eat. Take water, lemon. You'll be all right in a few days." They have not realized the function of the body, how their own body is functioning, and they insist on eating. They get sicker and sicker. They complicate things. I've seen so many people get incredibly complicated digestive diseases. And then they can't work. They get jaundice, they get dysentery, amoebic dysentery, boils—all these things come from taking too much food. And then they want to change their diet. Although they change their diet, they eat so much of the changed diet that it also has no effect. Akṣayānanda: Yes, true. Actually, this is the main problem. Haṁsadūta: And then they require money for medicine. I have spent so much money on medicine. Now I have stopped it. I tell them, "First you fast for three days, and if you don't get better I'll give you some money for medicine." But they are constantly running to this hospital, getting this pill and that pill. All these pills are useless. The real problem is they are just overeating. And of course, when they overeat they want to sleep. Because India is hot. And when they sleep, then they get dysentery. And when they get dysentery they can't engage. And in this way they run into a cycle which is very difficult to break. Only very few devotees are able to maintain themselves in India for any length of time. I see a nice strong man comes, and I look at him and I see him eat and I say: "Within a week this man is going to be sick." And sure enough, he's sick. He's laying down, he's got fever, he's got dysentery, he's going to the hospital. In this way we have so many people like that. Akṣayānanda: They become so weak that they can't work anyway. Hari-śauri: So they just become a liability. Haṁsadūta: I had one devotee, his name was Rad . . . (break) . . . you know and you know. He does nothing at all. He's always sick. But at prasādam he eats more than any other man. I told him, "Prabhu, you're a doctor. You should know that if you eat so much food you can't digest, you're going to be sick." He says: "No, I'm so weak I require food. I have to. I can't get any strength." So I asked him, "At least sit down in the temple and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." He said: "I can't . . ." Prabhupāda: I have seen. Some of them eat so much I am surprised. Akṣayānanda: But the ones who eat that much, they are the ones who are always sick. They're the ones. Prabhupāda: Overeating means sick. Hari-śauri: I used to eat a lot, but I used to burn it all off. Akṣayānanda: They don't know if you eat a lot and then work very hard, that's all right. But they eat a lot and then sleep a lot, as Mahārāja said. If they would simply work. Eat a lot, all right, but then work very hard. Then it's all digested. Hari-śauri: They eat a lot at midday, and then they're useless for the rest of the day. Sleep two or three hours in the afternoon and then stagger out for ārati . Akṣayānanda: Now they eat in the morning. Prabhupāda: So, how to manage this? It is very difficult. Akṣayānanda: I thought it was better when they were eating at noon. At least they'd work before they ate, work before eating. But I don't know. But even then the thing wasn't going any better. Hari-śauri: I've found if you want things to go on, you have to make them do it. That's all. Because they don't have sufficient realization to volunteer to work. Prabhupāda: They have to be . . . one man say: "You come here, you do this, you do this." Then it will be done. *Hari-śauri: Like this twenty*-four-hour . . . Prabhupāda: The temple commander must be a very able man. Hari-śauri: He's got to be a heavy man. I was telling Haṁsadūta, when I was here I tried for so long to get the kīrtana going at nighttime, and they wouldn't turn up or they'd fall asleep, or this or that. And so many people would refuse to do it. I could only get maybe five or six men out of the whole temple who would volunteer to do it. So we worked it out. We made a list of all the people who could possibly chant at night. Everyone. I even put the pūjārīs down, because we were short of men. And then we said: "Now you either chant . . ." Prabhupāda: No, pūjārīs , they have to rise early. Hari-śauri: Well, yes, but apart from that . . . we told them, "Now you either chant this one hour at night or you go." We made 'em chant. And then everything went very nicely. No one . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you do now? Hari-śauri: Well I told him that. He's going to do it. Prabhupāda: Not tell him, but you do it. (chuckles) Haṁsadūta: No, his suggestion is good, because one hour they can do. I've noticed . . . Your Divine Grace suggested three hours . . . Prabhupāda: Three hours continually not possible. Make it one hour. Haṁsadūta: It's impossible. Not a single person can do it. Akṣayānanda: (indistinct) . . . (end) Arrival -- October 9, 1976, Aligarh (Arrival Talk at House of Surendra Kumar Saigal) *Prabhupāda: . . . very glad to see you again. So this saṅkīrtana is all*-glorious. That is the blessings of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. This is His blessing: simply by saṅkīrtana , in this age. It is confirmed in the Vedic literature, in Vedānta-sūtra, śabdād anāvṛtti. Anāvṛtti , liberation. Our present position is bondage. We are bound up by the laws of nature. We may foolishly declare independence—that is our foolishness—but actually we are bound up by the laws of nature. We are bound up by the laws of nature, but those who are fools, vimūdhātmā , under false prestige, such person thinks that he is independent. No. That is not. *So this is misunderstanding. So this misunderstanding has to be cleaned. That is the aim of life. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends that if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , then the first installment of benefit is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Because misunderstanding means within the heart. If the heart is clear, consciousness is clear, then there is no misunderstanding. So this consciousness has to be cleansed, and that is the first installment of the result of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅga paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa's, kṛṣṇasya , holy name of Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma, the same thing. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa there is no difference. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan (BS 5.39). So we require. The present position is misunderstanding that, "I am product of this material nature," "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am kṣatriya ," and so on, so on . . . so many designations. But we are none of them. This is the clearing. Ceto-darpaṇa. When you understand clearly that "I am not a Indian, I'm not a American, I'm not brāhmaṇa , I'm not kṣatriya "—means "I am not this body"—then the consciousness will be ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Brahmā-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). This is wanted. This is success of life. Otherwise, if we remain in darkness of our existence . . . everyone is abodha-jāto . Anyone born in this material world in different platform . . . one may take birth as demigod in the heavenly planets or one may take birth as a human being in the lower planets. And lower than that, animal, plants. There are 8,400,000 different species of life. *So any form of life, we are bound up by the laws of nature, and bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). The puruṣaḥ . . . puruṣaḥ means the living entity. Puruṣaḥ . . . actually, nobody is puruṣaḥ; *everyone is prakṛti. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtim parā (BG 7.5). Parā prakṛti. The material, matter, is the aparā*-prakṛti , and spirit soul is parā-prakṛti . So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly explained, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). This is . . . bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā . This is separated. This is also nature, but inferior. Apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā . There is another prakṛti . What is that? Jīva-bhūto , this living entity. So living entity is also prakṛti , but because he has the tendency to enjoy this material world, he is sometimes described as puruṣaḥ . Puruṣaḥ means enjoyer, and prakṛti means enjoyed. So the prakṛti forgets her position, and artificially he wants to become puruṣaḥ. *So this puruṣaḥ, prakṛti 'stho . . . puruṣaḥ prakṛti 'stho bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān , so long he's in this material world, he has to associate with the modes of material nature, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān . And on account of the influence of the prakṛti-jān guṇa , he has to take different types of body. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti 'stho bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). This is the kāraṇa. He's associating with a particular type of the modes of prakṛti-jān guṇān—sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa —and on account of this he gets different types of body. You have to change your body. Dehāntaram. Tathā dehāntaram-prāptir (BG 2.13). But different grades of body is awarded by the laws of nature according to our karma, karmaṇā daiva netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). *So this is . . . our material position is that we are associating with different modes of material nature, and that is infection. If you become infected with some disease, germs, then you have to suffer from that disease. You cannot check it. Similarly, this infection will give us our next body. That we do not know. This is a rascal civilization. They're kept into the darkness, that how things are going on. Their so*-called education, universities . . . so whatever they are doing, they are all being defeated. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam (SB 5.5.5). Ātma-tattvam . Unless one is inquisitive to understand, "What I am?" whatever he is doing, he's being defeated. That's all. Parābhavaḥ. *So the human life is meant for understanding what is the position, "What I am?" This is the intelligence. When Sanātana Gosvāmī approached Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu he was minister, very big man, but he understood that "What I am doing is not to my interest, because I do not know what I am." He submitted to Caitanya Mahāprabhu that grāmya*-vyavahāre kahe paṇḍita satya kari māni (CC Madhya 20.100): that "In my relationship with my neighbors, they call 'paṇḍitjī' .'" He was brāhmaṇa . "So I accept it, 'Yes, I am paṇḍit .'" So what is the wrong? "The wrong is that I am such a paṇḍita that I do not know what I am." (laughs) So ask anybody. Our Dr. Sukla is also . . . (chuckles) So ask any doctor, "What you are?" "Huh? I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa ." This answer you'll get. "I'm American." Nobody will say ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Nobody will say. Nobody will say, because he does not know. So what is the value of this education if one does not know what he is? Therefore śāstra says parābhavaḥ . In ignorance, gross ignorance, anything we are doing, that is parābhava . So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to save the people from this defeating position. We are trying . . . so far I have tried single-handed. And now the . . . a little pressure is felt even by some American politicians. Recently one American politician has remarked that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is just like epidemic. (laughs) And if we do not take any step, then within ten years they'll take our government." So the Communists in India, they are trying to defeat us in so many ways. Surendra Kumar Saigal: We have seen the articles in Blitz. *Prabhupāda: Because they are also afraid. Because the Communist movement means godlessness. And our movement is, "Here is God." There is no blind faith. "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa! You take His name, you take His address—everything." Practical. So that is a great cause of fear for these Communists. So they are against us. So now I shall request the śreṣṭhas , those who are leading persons in India, they should join this movement, take it seriously. It is not a bogus movement. It is a scientific movement. And we have so many books. Now, at the present moment, we have got eighty*-four books. So that is my request, that people should come forward. (whispering in background) They should come forward and take seriously this movement. And we have got our places. In Bombay we have got big place. In Vṛndāvana we have got big place. In Nadia we have got big place. At least elderly gentlemen like you, now you should retire from family life and leave in charge of the grown-up boys. You should take seriously, for India's interest, for everyone's interest, but as we want . . . *We should not keep people in darkness. That is very risky. Very risky. But you may be very proud that, "I am this, I am that. I have to . . ." but you are after all under the control of the laws of nature. That you cannot avoid. You may be falsely proud, but you have to abide by it. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is not so easy. Actually, nature's law, you can eat once chatak . If you eat little more than that, then there is indigestion immediately—you have to go to the doctor. So what is your independence? You cannot violate a little portion of the laws of nature. So many. In every step. As soon as you violate, immediately there is punishment. And still, we are declaring independence. Asatyam. (aside) What is that? Where is Bhagavad*-gītā ? Find out. Jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad ahur anīśvaram. "There is no God." Why you say there is no . . .? You are under control. There is a controller—otherwise, how you are under control? So this foolishness must be stopped in order to make them happy, really happy. Otherwise, if they are kept into ignorance and things go on like this, then the future picture is very gloomy. It has already become gloomy, and future is very, very gloomy. So everyone should come forward, take this movement seriously, and at least, we are Indians, we should take care of Indians. We should not keep people in ignorance. That is not civilization. That is not civilization. Civilization means tamasi mā jyotir gama: come to the light. Don't keep yourself in darkness. That is not civilization. That . . . this civilization is keeping people in darkness. That is very risky. So we should take it very seriously and push this movement very scientifically, soberly, and people will be benefited. Any question? Indian man (son of Surendra Kumar): What are the . . . our Prime Minister's view regarding this movement? Prabhupāda: So far I know, she likes this movement. But she is also not independent. Son of Surendra Kumar: That's true. Nobody is independent. Even she. *Prabhupāda: Recently, one of my students met the Home Minister. He said: "Yes, this movement should be spread all over the world." They are appreciating. But there are different parties, different circumstances. Our four items—no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no gambling—so I think they are taking some steps on this ground. They are trying to stop cow-killing. *Indian man (2): Yes, they have already banned cow*-killing. Prabhupāda: And they are going to take steps for intoxication. Indian man (2): Stopping intoxication and actually, these are the things which can build up the character of the nation and . . . Prabhupāda: No!no! We are already intoxicated in material existence, and if more intoxication is there, then very . . . Indian man (2): Yes. From bad to worse. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this civilization, this education is simply misleading. Simply misleading. There is no enlightenment of this question, "What I am?" No. No answer. Surendra Kumar: Mahārāja, now we have present here some Life Members of ISKCON. Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) Life Members should be active Life Members. (laughter) Yes. Aur isme kuch sandeh hai toh puchiye. (And if there is any doubt about this then ask.) If there is any doubt. Surendra Kumar: Mahārāja, the one who brought ISKCON to this house is that boy, son of my . . . who became first Life Member of ISKCON. Prabhupāda: Oh, very intelligent. Indian man (2): Subodh. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: His name is Subodha and which means the understanding. Prabhupāda: Very intelligent. Subodha means . . . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Good Understanding. Prabhupāda: Just, just I was talking of abodh . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes. Indian man (2): Abodh . (laughter) Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes. So far you had been mentioning . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, abodha*-jāto . *Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes, abodha*-jāto and he is already subodha . Prabhupāda: He is subodha . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: He knows his . . . (indistinct) . . . evaṁ budhe paraṁ buddha . Surendra Kumar: You were suggesting to me that . . . Prabhupāda: Parābhavaḥ. One who is abodha , he is parābhava. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Parābhava , defeated. Prabhupāda: Defeat. And one is subodha , he is victory. So human life is meant for becoming subhodha , not abodha . But they are keeping abodha . This is the difficulty. Everyone is abodha . *Indian man (2): Mahārāja, I had a gentleman talking to me who is very intimate with Sanjay Gandhi. And he was telling me that Sanjay Gandhi very forcefully hinted, "Why are you people not working now? Why is the Arya*-samaj silent? Why the other powerful sects and movements are not working? Why have you taken this country into the hands of Muslims?" These were his words. "Why do you want that the country should depend, or the government should depend, on the support of Muslims? Where are you? What are you doing? Why don't you come up?" Indian man: But our government is supporting them all right, you see. Surendra Kumar: Swami Mahārāja said that they are forces which, when if you want to keep yourself in power, you have to sometimes bend and this . . . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: That's true. *Prabhupāda: Apart from government, the first thing is that the . . . sometimes we say "Rāma*-rājya." The Rāma-rājya means . . . there is a verse in Bhāgavatam that when Lord Rāmacandra took charge of the . . . after coming back from the forest, His brother Bhārata surrendered and He took charge of the kingdom. So the residents, the subjects, are described as a varṇāśrama guṇānvitā . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Varnāśrama gunan . . .? *Prabhupāda: Guṇānvitā. So Rāma*-rājya can be established. And it is said there that Lord Rāmacandra was maintaining the kingdom, taking the citizens as His own son. Pitṛvat rāma . It is said there. Pitṛvat . As the father of the family takes charge of the children very nicely, it is the government's duty to become the sensible father of the citizens. And the citizens should be qualified following the institution of varṇāśrama . Then there will be Rāma-rājya . Dr. Shaligram Shukla: That's the most scientific understanding . . . Surendra Kumar: No. Prabhupāda had rightly said in one of the meetings in Delhi that you people try to follow people who are in power. If Indira Gandhi were to do mālā just like this, I'm sure millions of people in India would be doing mālā like this. So she's doing that. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). Surendra Kumar: "But you will not follow me because I have no political power; therefore you have not . . ." Aise bhi mala japo, kyun apne idhar udhar ki baat sohte ho. Bhagvan ka naam lo wo nahi karega. Lekin Indraji karne lagenge Sanjay gandhi karne lage, toh sab log ke gale me mala daal ne lagenge aur wo karne lagenge. That is why we chant. Why you are thinking of talks of here and there. Take names of lord that you will not do. But if Indraji and Sanjay Gandhi will do then everybody will put flower garlands on their neck and then they will follow. Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yatha Raja tatha praja . Surendra Kumar: He is my eldest grandson. Aur ye Sanadar me . . . (indistinct) (And in Sanadar he is . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: He is subhoda or abodha . (laughter) Surendra Kumar: No, he is Suvrata , Suvrata . Prabhupāda: Suvrata . . . Kya arth hota hai batao? (What is the meaning of Suvrata , tell me?) Surendra Kumar: Please describe God. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Do you know what is God? Do you know? Surendra Kumar: Do you know what is God or not? Suvrata: I want to know. Surendra Kumar: I want to know. Prabhupāda: Do you know the meaning of the God? Suvrata: No. Then how you are asking what is God? If I say something wrong, how you'll understand? If you do not know . . . suppose you go to purchase something, "Give me gold," and if he gives you iron, then what you'll do? If you do not know what is God, gold. You must know first of all what is God. Then you ask. If you do not know, then you'll be cheated. That is going on. That is going on. Surendra Kumar: Mahārāja, but there must be somebody to say that, "This is gold and this is iron." Prabhupāda: Yes, that means requires a superior education. Surendra Kumar: Superior education. Prabhupāda: Yes. The father, mother should be responsible . . . Surendra Kumar: So who can be a greater than your Divine Grace? *Prabhupāda: No, no. The father, father . . . the first thing is that why do you send your sons to the school? It is the duty that he should know. So if the father is a rascal, then how the son can be subodha ? (laughter) Therefore the śāstra says that unless you can train your son to overcome this process of birth, death, old . . . don't become a father. You remain a rascal. Don't beget children. This is contraception. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum (SB 5.5.18). The real problem is mṛtyu . But they have taken it that, "It is ordinary thing." But nobody wants to die. The education is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). But who knows that I do not die after the destruction of the body? Then why I am put into this position that I have to change this body, I have to die? This question does not arise. Therefore they're abodha . The instruction is, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). There is no inquiry that, "If I'm not born, why I am born in this body?" This is question. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . "If I am not subjected to death, then why I am dying?" This question does not arise at all. Therefore everyone is abodha-jāto . Nobody is subodha . Everyone is abodha . The problem is there, but he does not inquire. Indian lady (daughter of Surendra Kumar): Excuse me. Mahārāja, don't you think it's high time that some of our Indian philosophy or Indian religion, some classes should be started in schools like they used to have and missionaries used to have scripture classes in schools. There should be in all the schools, I mean, classes on our own religion instead of learning somebody else's. *Prabhupāda: It is not only . . . when we say that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā . . . (BG 2.13), so as this boy, he was a child, now he has become a boy, then after few years he'll become a young man, and then he'll become middle*-aged man, then he'll become old man—so this is not "Our religion," "Your religion." This is fact, scientific. When Bhagavad-gītā says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā , that is not meant for the so-called Hindus. It is meant for the Muslim, meant for the Christian, everyone. It is science. Religion is a kind of faith. That they describe. But religion is also not a blind faith. Religion means the order of God. That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Just like law means the order of the state. Similarly, religion means the order of God. So if you have no conception of God, if you do not know what is God, what is order, then where is religion? It is all bogus. Son of Surendra Kumar: What my sister was saying was that most of the parents do not understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. Son of Surendra Kumar: How they should bring up their progeny. Prabhupāda: Then at least they . . . Daughter of Surendra Kumar: Children should have . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: At least, the children should be . . . therefore I'm starting that gurukula in Vṛndāvana. So you come, you manage that, take the ideas, make your children . . . whatever mistake is done is done. Now why the mistake should continue? Rectify it. Indian man: Swamiji isme ek fark ye padta hai nah, agar hum apne aap karte hai toh secularism mai nahi aata hai. (Swamiji, the difference it makes is that if we do that, then it doesn't come under secularism.) Prabhupāda: Then kick out secularism. Kick out secularism. Indian man: Wo scientific nahi hai. (It is not scientific.) Prabhupāda: Science. It is science. Indian man: Science is nothing. What is God, what is nature, what is soul. Son of Surendra Kumar: You don't give it the name of one particular way. You simply deal it with the basic idea of transforming the human . . . *Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. When a child becomes a boy, there is no question of secularism. It is science. It is fact. Can you by secularism stop a child growing to become a boy? When I was explaining in South Africa, this thing, one Arya*-samaji friend, he criticized me, that "Why you are bringing Hindu ideas?" So I said: "Is it Hindu ideas? A child grows to become a boy. It is Hindu idea? Why you are so fool you're calling Hindu idea?" A child grows to become a boy. This is science. Son of Surendra Kumar: The law of nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). Naturally . . . *Prabhupāda: But because it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , they take it Hindu idea. This is nonsense. Indian man: Our approach is so wrong that people take it as . . . Prabhupāda: Immediately we can pass in a sectarian . . . Daughter of Surendra Kumar: That is why it is necessary to have this as a part of social studies like you have other subjects in schools. If it is not given any more . . . *Prabhupāda: But then, as soon as you say " Bhagavad*-gītā ," immediately, "Hindu." Son of Surendra Kumar: What sister wants to know is that how can we add in innumerable, rather, uncountless schools and colleges? The management will be most willing, I mean, the progressive management will be most willing to introduce classes where such laws of nature and such . . . on scientific line, without giving it a Hindu or religious name. That should be taught. A curriculum should be drawn up. Because we control some of the schools. Prabhupāda: That is my program. I am writing all book just only on this point, therefore they are coming. Otherwise, what is the use? They were Christians and Jews. What is the use of becoming Hindus? Son of Surendra Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So anyone wants to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they can understand easily if he joins, Hare Kṛṣṇa, chant. That is all right. If he wants to understand scientifically, there are eighty*-four books. Come on. Which way you want? Son of Surendra Kumar: No. What we want is a very simple curriculum. Elementary type. Prabhupāda: Simple, this is simple curriculum. Son of Surendra Kumar: So that they gradually, as a child grows into adolescence, when his intelligence also grows, his knowledge also grows. And then we give him still more deeper knowledge of the various things which we have been teaching on elementary basis. And then still deeper. Just like this. Prabhupāda: Just like this child, this boy, inquired, "What is God?" So he can be instructed that, "God is the supreme controller, just like your father is your controller." He'll accept this. Can you go against your father's will? He says no. He'll say, naturally. Son of Surendra Kumar: Sun rahe tum? (Are you listening?) . . . how he's spreading it. Prabhupāda: So, he'll understand English? He's angrej? (laughter) He looks like angrej. Son of Surendra Kumar: Maharaj hindi bhi bahut achi samjhta hai. (Mahārāja, he also understands Hindi very well.) Prabhupāda: Very good. Son of Surendra Kumar: Mahabharata, Ramayana sab padliya isne. (He reads *Mahābhārata* , *Rāmāyaṇa* etc.) Prabhupāda: Just like at home you are controlled by your parents. Is it not? You like to obey them? Son of Surendra Kumar: (to Suvrata) You like to obey them, or sometimes you don't want to obey them? *Prabhupāda: Similarly, you take the whole world as a big family. So there must be somebody father and controller. Otherwise, how it is being conducted? That is God, the supreme controller. Just like in your family the father is the controller, similarly, you take it in wide scale, broader scale, there must be somebody father. Therefore the Christians, they take it, "O Father, give us our daily bread." And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is also confirmed, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā . (break) Then he decided, "Yes, I shall fight." Kṛṣṇa inquired from him, "Now I have instructed you. Now, whatever you like you can do. And what is your decision?" Then he clearly said, "Yes, my decision is there. I'll fight." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). "As You advise, I understand that You want this fighting." So Vaiṣṇava means for the sake of Kṛṣṇa he can do anything. Not that he is lazy fellow, showing, "I have become very big Vaiṣṇava. Let me sleep under the name of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava must be very busy, always awaiting the order of the . . . ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). "What is Kṛṣṇa's order? What does He want?" and He is ready. Just like a servant is always ready to receive the order of the master. That is faithful servant. That is real servant and not that at night duty he is sleeping somewhere. No. That is not faithful servant. Faithful servant means always alert. And that is bhakti . Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam bhaktir uttama (CC Madhya 19.167). Simply one has to execute ānukūlyena , how Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. This is bhakti . *So the Hanumān is example. Hanumān was ordered to bring some medicine from some mountain. And he was a monkey, he was animal, he did not know how to pick up it—"Take the whole mountain. Execute the order. And then Rāmacandra and Lakṣmana, They'll find out what is that medicine." So this is Vaiṣṇava. In one's own capacity he should give the best service to the Lord and that is bhakti. Bhakti is not laziness. If somebody thinks that, "The bhaktas are lazy fellows, and they are out of the worldly activity," that is mistake. It is mistake. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam . Kṛṣṇa says personally, yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat tapasyasi yat kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27): "Come on! Do it for Me." That is bhakti . He does not say that "You become a lazy fellow. Give up your occupational duty and sleep and snore, and become a great devotee." No. He never says. He says that "You are attached to this kind of work. All right, do it, but the result you give Me," that is bhakti . "Arjuna, you are a military man. All right, I ask you to fight. You become a fighter and become My devotee." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me (BG 4.3). Just see. What is that? He was not chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa says, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: "You are very dear friend and My devotee." Did he go on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra . . . so not that imitation. Of course, ultimate is always be absorbed in glorifying the Lord. But not in the beginning. In the beginning you must work very hard; you come to the stage of pure devotional platform. Then you can fully engage yourself meditation or chanting. Not in the beginning. In the beginning you should be very expert and active. That is wanted. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . udilo , from the early in the morning, active. "Come on, chant. Come with Me so that others will see. If we make a party chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, so in the beginning they may be disturbed because they have been accustomed to sleep up to nine o'clock, but as they will hear, gradually they'll become purified. They'll receive it." *So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He practically did it, and He asked everyone to do it. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "This is My order." He could remain a big devotee at His home. He was very popular in Navadvīpa, even when He was twenty years old. But still, He took sannyāsa and went door to door, village to village, town to town in India, and He left His order, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma: "All over the world, as many towns and villages are there, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be . . ." (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). Not that "We are big, big gosvāmīs and bābājīs . We do not go out of Vṛndāvana." They say that "We do not go out of . . ." You are imitating them. (chuckles) Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma . And they have become very big Vaiṣṇava: "No, I don't go beyond the limits of Vṛndāvana." What is this nonsense? Did Caitanya Mahāprabhu say like that, that "You do not go beyond the limits . . ."? A devotee, wherever he is, that is Vṛndāvana. That is Vṛndāvana. Tīrtha-kurvanti tīrthāni (SB 1.13.10). A devotee, a pure devotee, can make any hell a tīrtha, a holy place. That is devotee. Tīrthī-kurvanti tīrthāni . That was Bhagīratha. Gaṅgā was hesitating, mother Gaṅgā, that "I shall go to the material world. People will take . . . all sinful men will take bathing, and I'll be overloaded with sin. Then how I shall get out of this sinful, accumulation of sins?" So the Bhagīratha said, "My mother, don't hesitate. When a holy man will take bath in your water, then all the sins he will assimilate." Then she agreed, "Yes. That's all right" So if we become holy man, actually, then immune. There is no difference. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. These are bogus that, "I do not go out of Vṛndāvana." They are making Vṛndāvana limited. Vṛndāvana is not limited. Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, wherever there is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple, that is Vṛndāvana. That is Vṛndāvana. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He, once only, He went to Vṛndāvana. Does it mean He was not in Vṛndāvana? So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that preaching must go on in hell and heaven. We should be very much expert and follow the instruction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the simple instructions. Mukunda mādhava yādava hari bolena bolo re vadana bori . Simply chant the holy names of Lord, mukunda mādhava yādava . This is Caitanya . . . rise early in the morning. You go preach, and work hard, day and night, and that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . this song indicates. That's all. Thank you. Devotees: Jaya . (offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ye jagah toh bahut hai, idhar ek mandir banayenge. (This place is very big. Here we will make a temple.) Surendra Kumar: Abhi toh urban ceiling act me, wo isme se zameen lena chahte hai. (Now in the urban ceiling act, they want to take a piece of land from this) Prabhupāda: Toh hum log ko de dijiye, mandir banalenge. Bahut aadmi de raha hai, bahut aadmi. (Then you give it to us and we will construct a temple. Many people are giving. Many people . . .) They are offering their . . . we have received one letter, telegram, from one gentleman. What is his name? Patel? Bhogilal Patel. He's very rich man. So I was sometimes guest in his house. He is very friendly. He comes to see me in Bombay. Old man. He is older than me, one or two years. But he has sent me one telegram, "Swāmījī, take this land, one hundred acres of land in Ahmedabad." Surendra Kumar: In . . .? Prabhupāda: Ahmedabad. Surendra Kumar: Ahmedabad. Prabhupāda: Yes. So . . . there are so many. One gentleman has offered land in Mahabaleshwar. Surendra Kumar: Mahabaleshwar. Prabhupāda: This is very costly place. Surendra Kumar: Very costly place and very nice place. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Very nice. And wherefrom other offers we have got? Haṁsadūta: Hyderabad we have. Prabhupāda: Hyderabad he has already . . . that is six hundred acres of land. What is the name of that place? Do you remember? Haṁsadūta: Where? Hyderabad? No. We called it New Naimiṣāraṇya. Prabhupāda: No, we have named New Naimiṣāraṇya. A very nice place. *Surendra Kumar: You'll get a lot of offers. And as you rightly said that these Vaiṣṇavas, they want to become maṭha*-deśas , they want to become like kings. They don't want to leave their empire and go out, working hard like you and spreading the message of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our mission. Surendra Kumar: That is the right attitude. Even if there is one bhakta , there is Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakta will create Vṛndāvana. Kṛṣṇa says, nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭha (Padma Purāṇa): "I do not stay in Vaikuṇṭha." Nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭhe yogināṁ hṛdayeṣu . "Neither I stay at the heart, core of the heart of the yogīs." Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad*-bhaktāḥ. "When My pure devotee chants the glories of My . . . I immediately stay there. I immediately stay." It's not that He is packed up in some place. He's all-pervading. Vasudeva. Vāsudeva. Therefore His name is Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). He's everywhere. Electricity is everywhere. Only one who knows how to take the electricity . . . so Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching and teaching, they're perfect. You have to follow. Then our life will be successful. Don't manufacture ideas. That is not wanted. Ye log manufacture kiya, ye hindu samdra ka par jaane se hi ekdum . . . (indistinct) hai na? And these people manufactured that this hindu as he crossed the ocean has become fallen. Isn't it? *Surendra Kumar: (indistinct) . . . Has fallen. Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). Bas toh samudra paar kaise nahi hoga? Ye sab chal raha hai. (But then how this ocean will not be crossed. These things are going on.) Foolish theories. Just see. As soon as you cross over the Bay of Bengal or Indian Ocean, you'll become immediately fallen. Surendra Kumar: You become an outcaste. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That's all. Our Madan Mohan Malaviya, he was invited Round Table conference. He took so much Ganges earth. He was mixing that Ganges earth with water. He's going for political purposes, and showing a . . . what is called? Hobby. This is not that. Now this movement is there, and unless we do it very sincerely and vigorously, it cannot be pushed on. Dekhiye na, Vrindaban me jitna goswami hai. (Now see in Vṛndāvana there are many goswamis .) Surendra Kumar: Ji. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Wo sab combine ho karke. bhi, ye humara koi pride ka baat nahi. Jo kaam humne kiya hai, wo nahi kar sakte. (Even if they combine. This is nothing related to my pride. But whatever work i have done they cannot do.) Surendra Kumar: Nahi kar sakte. Maharaaj, kitne honge apne ab ye disciples antardeshiye. (They cannot do. Mahārāja! How many disciples might be there all over the world.) Prabhupāda: Initiated hoga toh koi 10,000. Dekhiye is tarah se hai sab. (If initiated then 10,000. See this is like this . . .) Surendra Kumar: Initiated dus hazaar. (Initiated 10,000.) Prabhupāda: Aur ye sab followers log hai. Jo kitaab par rahe hai, ye jo daily 5 lakhs 6 lakhs jo kitaab beek raha hai, koi padta hai nahi koi . . . (indistinct) . . . Padta hai hum ko malum hai. (And like this there are many followers. Some are reading books daily five lakhs , six lakhs Books are selling somebody studies or comes and reads on street. I know that they study.) Surendra Kumar: Life member kitne hai humare? (There are how many Life Members.) Prabhupāda: Life members toh hum idhar hi kiya tha. (Life Member cultivation I have done here.) Surendra Kumar: Udhar nahi kiye? (There you haven't done.) Prabhupāda: No . . . Life Member. We have Life Member? Dhanañjaya: In London. London's about fifteen hundred. Haṁsadūta: Where? In London, Amsterdam and Montreal. We're making Life Members everywhere now. Dhanañjaya: Africa. Indian man: How many Life Members in India? Must have at least ten thousand. Prabhupāda: No. Indian man: Target must be 10,000. Prabhupāda: No. Indian, everyone should become a Life Member. Surendra Kumar: Certainly. Everybody like us are there with devotees. Prabhupāda: And it is India's duty that everyone should take up such a cultural movement. That is India's glory. I have given one statement, I do not know whether it is published. The, some of the places, they are against me. So where is that copy? Have you got that copy? Haṁsadūta: I don't know which . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. I've given one statement . . . Surendra Kumar: Mahārāja, have you sent that reply to that questionnaire which was sent to you from Bhavan's Journal? Bhavan's Journal sent you a questionnaire. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I have sent that answer. Eighty-four pages. For twenty*-one questions I have answered eighty-four pages. Surendra Kumar: I think in Delhi you must call a press conference. Prabhupāda: Aadmi itna dull hogaya, ye sab baat samajhta hi nahi. Samajhta hai, still leta nahi. (People have become so dull that they do not understand these talks. They understand still . . .) Surendra Kumar: Samajhta hai, lekin political jab tak ke yo usko politically ve kar leta, usko samjhne ki koshis nahi karta. (They understand but until and unless the politician accept, they don't want to understand.) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . by seeing him, if we remember Kṛṣṇa, he is Vaiṣṇava. He never said that you must be born in a brāhmaṇa family or . . . no. If by seeing him only one remembers Kṛṣṇa, then that person is Vaiṣṇava. Dhanañjaya: So couldn't that point be expressed to the government, somehow? Prabhupāda: Well, emergency government. (laughs) They can do anything immediately. Surendra Kumar: Sir, these nationalities, I mean . . . (break) (end) Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh *(reporters from the English*-language Times of India, the Press Trust of India, UNI, the Punjabi Akali Patarika and Ajit, and the Hindi and Urdu Hind Samachar) Interviewer: No, I've seen this. It is in the library. No, but still I . . . (indistinct) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Five hundred libraries in India have ordered these books in the last four months. Interviewer: Must have. These are very good quality book, it is. Very good quality. Prabhupāda: Give this one book from the . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I brought it back. (break) Prabhupāda: India's culture and knowledge are richer than any other culture. And that is being accepted. Yes. Real knowledge, real culture is in India. Unfortunately, we did not try in that way. We simply went to the foreign countries to beg, "Give us wheat, give us this, give us this, give us that." But if we give our culture, they will accept that India is still richer than any other. (aside) You can bring some of the press items, professor, learned scholars' opinions. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Aiye . (pause) *Prabhupāda: Where is Caitya*-guru? Haṁsadūta: He's out. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Opinions of the big scholars. Interviewer: I would request you to wait for five minutes, because some other journalists are coming. They are . . . Interviewer (2): Here is some material written about . . . Interviewer: Oh, really? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The electricity is off at the moment, so we . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purely a spiritual movement. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult to understand the activities of this movement. There are two things: material and spiritual. That is the beginning of instruction of the Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa begins with this statement: that this body is not the person; the soul is the person. Asmin dehe . Within this body there is the soul. And He has explained in different ways that this body is antavanta ime dehā ( BG 2.18). This body is perishable, but the soul is not perishable. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), that even after the destruction of the body the soul is not destroyed. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit . The soul never takes birth, never dies. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). There are so many things explained, what is the soul. So without the soul, this body is useless. That everyone can understand. Therefore the importance should be given to the soul, not to the body. Kṛṣṇa says that anyone who is paṇḍita , in knowledge, he does not give any importance to the body, either living or dead. *So the India's particular culture is how to elevate the soul to the highest platform of perfection. That is India's culture. The whole Vedic literature is meant for that, and Bhagavad*-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literature. And the purpose is that soul is now entrapped within this material world, and the human life is the opportunity for getting oneself out of this entrapment of material existence. So if we do not take care of this important business of human life—as it is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra , athāto brahma jijñāsā . . . this life is meant for understanding about the Brahman, or the spirit soul. And there are two kinds of spirit soul. One is called the Supersoul, and the other is called the individual soul. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā : kṣetra-kṣetrajñā , this chapter. Kṣetra means this body, and kṣetrajñā means one who knows about the body. You know about your body, not fully, but at least partially. Every one of us, we know, "This is my body. I am . . . I got this body from such father and mother. I belong . . . this body belongs to such and such country," and so on. This is one knowledge. *So another soul is there. That is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. He says that kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). That is Supersoul. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is everywhere within this universe, even within the atom. That is Supersoul. That Supersoul is . . . the distinction between soul and the Supersoul is this, that we are individual soul. I know about the pains and pleasure of my body, you know the pains and pleasure of your body. But I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body, you do not know the pains or pleasure of my body. The Supersoul, He knows the pains and pleasure of all bodies. That is the distinction. Ātmā , Paramātmā . So these things can be understood in the human form of life. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand. If we want to educate the cats and dogs that "My dear dog, you are not this body. You are different from this body. You are spirit soul, Brahman," he has no capacity to understand. And a human being, however fallen he may be, if he is educated, he can understand about the position of spirit soul and how to become free from this material bondage. *So in India we have got immense Vedic literature for understanding this business of the soul. And in human form of body, if we do not take care of the spiritual portion of our life, then we are making suicide. That is the proposal of all great personalities born in India, ācāryas like . . . recent . . . Formerly, there were big, big ācāryas like Vyāsadeva and others, Devala. Many, many ācāryas . And the recent, within, say, one thousand five hundred years, there are . . . there were many ācāryas like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, and within five hundred years Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They have also given us many literatures about this spiritual knowledge. But at the present moment this spiritual knowledge is neglected. So it is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message to the whole world that every one of you, you become guru , a spiritual master. So how everyone can become a spiritual master? To become a spiritual master is not easy job. One must be very learned scholar and must have full realization of the self and everything. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us a little formula, that if you strictly follow the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā , and if you preach the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā , then you become guru . The exact words used in Bengali, it is said, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). To become guru is very difficult job, but if you simply carry the message of Bhagavad-gītā and try to convince anyone you meet, then you become a guru . *So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for this purpose. We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, without any man interpretation. If we interpret Bhagavad-gītā in our own way, that is not very good. If you have got a different opinion, you can preach your philosophy. Everyone is free. But one should not take Bhagavad-gītā and through Bhagavad-gītā one will try to preach his own philosophy. That is very bad. You should not do that. Then the authority of Bhagavad-gītā is lost. If everyone can interpret in his own way, then where is the authority of the Bhagavad-gītā ? Just like in the Vedas . . . we take Vedas as the authority. But if you interpret in your own way and squeeze out some meaning in your own way, then where is authority of the Vedas ? So our special stress on this point is that don't squeeze out some meaning of Bhagavad-gītā for your own convenience. Present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people will be benefited. And that is being practically seen. We are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You have seen our book? Interviewer: When can we put questions? Devotee: After. *Prabhupāda: Yes, let me finish, that . . . we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and it is being accepted all over the world. People are very much, those who are scholars, they say that even Radhakrishnan and Aurobindo, they presented Bhagavad-gītā , making some compromise with the Western ideas. But here is presentation of Bhagavad-gītā in India's original, traditional way. So they welcome it. And this is our, I mean to say, object also, that we cannot allow Bhagavad-gītā to be understood by anyone's imagination. No. That is not possible. And that is not allowed in the Bhagavad-gītā by the author. Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter that as soon as the paramparā system of understanding is lost, then the whole thing is lost. In the Fourth Chapter it is said. (aside) Find out Fourth Chapter. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there another Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: Why don't you bring another copy? Hari-śauri: Pradyumna might have one. Interviewer: Here is one. *Prabhupāda: Fourth Chapter, you find, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Kṛṣṇa says that this Bhagavad-gītā knowledge was first of all given to . . . Fourth Chapter. Yes. *"Now, this paramparā system being lost, I am again reviving the Bhagavad*-gītā again to you, Arjuna." That means the author says if one does not understand Bhagavad-gītā through the paramparā system, then the whole thing is lost. So you cannot interpret Bhagavad-gītā in your own way. Then the authority and the purport of Bhagavad-gītā is lost. So we are trying to revive this paramparā system, and fortunately we have sold millions copies of this edition of Bhagavad-gītā . We are printing five hundred thousand, three hundred thousand, like that, and all over the world. There are many Bhagavad-gītās . There are about six hundred and forty different editions. But still our, this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, it is being accepted very widely, and therefore we are very much hopeful. *And as practical example you can see so many European, American, they have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness very seriously. And before this movement, many svāmīs , yogīs and scholars went to the foreign countries, but not a single person became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. Not a single person. But now, because Bhagavad*-gītā is being presented as it is, so many thousands, they are becoming devotees of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So this movement has practical effect, and both in the scholarly and people in general circle. And as advised by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, India should take this movement very seriously and send many trained teachers so that India's glories will be enhanced. People will take it very seriously. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You can ask your questions now. Interviewer: Sir, who initiated you into this movement? Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja. (aside) You show my Guru Mahārāja's picture here. Here is a picture. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here, here. Haṁsadūta has it right here. Prabhupāda: He asked me to do this. Haṁsadūta: Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda. Interviewer: Has he a seat here in India? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Founder of the Gauḍīya Math. *Prabhupāda: He is the founder of Gauḍīya Math. He advised me to take up this movement when I was twenty*-five years old, young man. But at that time I thought that "I am a married man, let me wait." So waiting, waiting. When I retired at the . . . I was born in 1896. So I retired in 1954. That means I retired at the age of fifty-eight years? At fifty-eight years. Then I remained as a vānaprastha in Vṛndāvana up to seventieth year of my age. Then I thought that "Guru Mahārāja asked me to do this at the age of . . . when I was twenty-five years old. I could not do it. So let me try." So by his grace and Kṛṣṇa's grace, it became little successful. That's all. In 1965 I went to New York without any help. But gradually, in 1966, I registered this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in New York. And then gradually, it spread whole America, Europe, Australia, Canada. Like that. Interviewer: What is the reason of the success of your mission in the foreign countries? Haṁsadūta: "What is the reason of your success in foreign countries?" Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very intelligent question. We are after material civilization, and they are fed up with material civilization. That is the position. We are now trying to imitate them, a skyscraper building, but they are disgusted with such skyscraper building. These boys, they are coming from very respectable family, rich family, and especially in America there is no question of poor man. There is no question of poor man. But still, they do not like the materialistic way of life of their father and grandfathers. Interviewer: But does that not mean because they are rich, they can afford religion? Prabhupāda: No, no. That is the . . . because you are . . . we have already explained. You are a spiritual being. You cannot be satisfied with material atmosphere in any stage. Just like a fish is an animal of the water. If you bring the fish from water and keep on the land very comfortably, it cannot be comfortable. It is impossible. Similarly, we are all spiritual being. Any amount of material comforts will never satisfy us, unless we come to the spiritual platform. That is the demand. So now they have satisfied their material demands, but the urge is there, "I want something more, to be happy." And that is spiritual. Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples, or do your other disciples also do that? Prabhupāda: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) . . . knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing. So our this movement is successful . . . on account of this movement . . . (faulty recording) (break) . . . because learned scholars and those who are inquisitive, advanced, they are seeing, "Yes, here is . . ." (break) Interviewer: . . . success abroad? Prabhupāda: Who has abroad success? Name them. (break) So it is not . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody knows of this. Interviewer: Maharishi . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Well, Maharishi does not say . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) He says that this is material. If you perform this meditation, Transcendental Meditation, you will be materially benefited. That is not spiritual meditation. Interviewer: (indistinct) . . . you have said that India should take this movement seriously. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: How do you want India to take this movement? *Prabhupāda: Seriously means that a spiritual movement is India's spiritual movement. So if some of our leading men take seriously, then whatever I am doing single*-handed . . . I don't get any support, either from the Indian public or from the government. But if they take it seriously, then we can present in more organized way, and it will be more successful. So far it is done single-handed. Interviewer: Do you think there is a necessity to open a ministry of religion? Prabhupāda: I think so. Because there is a cultural department in the central government, (chuckles) but they do not know what is culture. Just see. Interviewer: What is the difference between God consciousness and Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: There is no difference. The same thing. Kṛṣṇa is God. (break) Interviewer: What is, sir, the number of your disciples round the world? Prabhupāda: Dedicated life—not less than ten thousand. And admirers, there are many millions. Recently one American politician has remarked in Houston that "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is spreading like epidemic. So unless we take some steps, it may take our government." (laughter) Interviewer: Who was the man who said it? Prabhupāda: Just say. Hari-śauri: A government official in Houston. Prabhupāda: No, no, what is his name? You can give. Hari-śauri: His name was not given. Prabhupāda: Oh. Simply it is said a government official. Interviewer: He said on the floor of the House or outside? Hari-śauri: Said it on the TV. Haṁsadūta: Houston. Houston, Texas. (everyone talking at once) Interviewer: Are you getting any opposition from the Church? Prabhupāda: No. That is very favorable. Interviewer: No opposition. Prabhupāda: No. Otherwise, it was impossible. At least in America they have never prevented me. But in Europe, especially in England and Germany, they, the Christian group, they are little angry with me. But so far America, they are very liberal. They never put any impediments in my movement. Rather, government appreciates. The appreciated one point, that the American younger generation, they have become addicted to this LSD, intoxication, and they have spent millions of dollars to stop this, but they could not. But they are surprised that as soon as this LSD man becomes my disciple, he gives up immediately. Interviewer: Sir, apart from Catholicity of the American Church, what can be the other reasons of their indifference towards your positive ideas? Prabhupāda: Not indifference. They are . . . you see, there is a remark of a politician. There is no indifference. They are appreciating that it is spreading like epidemic. There is no question of indifference. But the leaders, they appreciate. Some of the fathers of my disciples, they come to offer their thanks, "Swāmījī, it is a great fortune for us that you have come to our country." They say like that. They appreciate that their sons were going to be hippies. Now they are devotees, God conscious. So any sane man will never object to this. The priests also, they say that "These boys are our boys," in Boston, one priest said, "and they never cared to come to the church or inquire about God. And now these boys are mad after God." Not only that, practically, in many places we have purchased churches and converted into temples. So we see these churches were sold because nobody was coming. But since this movement is there, the same church is there and the same persons are there—you will find always it is crowded. This is practical. I have not imported men from India to fill up the temples. Their men and their church, but the philosophy is different, it is filled up. Interviewer: Can you give us the number how many temples are there in foreign countries? Prabhupāda: I have established 102 temples. Small and big. Out of them, very big temples are in Los Angeles, in London, in Hawaii, Honolulu, in Detroit . . . and . . . Haṁsadūta: New York, Chicago. Prabhupāda: New York, Chicago. Hari-śauri: Toronto. *Prabhupāda: Toronto, Montreal, Paris, so many. Very, very big temples. The cost is sometimes fifty lakhs , fifty*-five lakhs each temple. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New York is more than a million dollars, New York temple. Interviewer: Do you have any proposal to spread this movement in Communist countries? Prabhupāda: Yes, we have already gone. I have been in Moscow. This, my secretary, he has brought some order from them. They are also appreciating. Interviewer: Now two priests of your temple in America have been arrested on certain charges as we read from the newspaper . . . *Prabhupāda: Well, the charges will be there. Gandhi was also charged and was arrested. And that you cannot stop. That will go on in any movement. That is not any fault. Because the counter*-charges are already there, everywhere. What is the American charges? I do not know. What is that? Interviewer: That you have took money from . . . extortion of money from the devotees. Asking their parents to pay, or some such thing. Prabhupāda: Parents to pay. This is a farce. Interviewer: As a donation or contribution. Prabhupāda: So we can ask donation from anyone. What is the fault there? Is it extortion? What is that extortion? Suppose if I ask for donation . . . Interviewer: No, they equate that this donation was extortion. Prabhupāda: No, no, extortion, what do you mean by extortion? If I ask you donation and if you pay, does it mean it is extortion? Interviewer: They say those two people were kept in custody before . . . *Prabhupāda: That is false accusation. There was no such charge. Besides that, we do not have many contribution. We have got contribution, big lump sum money . . . one of my disciples is the great*-grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. So he has given a big contribution, and he's always prepared to spend for me. He has got enough money. Another boy, George Harrison, Beatle, he has given us the London temple. It is worth about fifty-five, sixty lakhs worth. So we don't get any money, but they have given us many buildings. And our main source of income is the selling of these books. We are selling books daily all over the world, five to six lakhs rupees. Interviewer: Five to six lakhs . . . Prabhupāda: Rupees. Per day. Interviewer: Per day! Prabhupāda: And by this collection, from this collection, we are bringing money in India. We are bringing money in India not less than ten lakhs of rupees per month. Our buildings and temples are going on in Bombay, in Vṛndāvana, in Navadvīpa. So we have got at least ten lakhs of rupees' expenditure for these temples, and that I am bringing from foreign countries. So if by laboring hard at night in this Dictaphone I write books, and I sell them in the foreign countries and I bring the money here for spending in India, do you think it is faulty? Interviewer: One American professor who is a teacher of Hinduism there, in some of the universities you mentioned, she said, I asked him a question about ISKCON, and she said, "Well this thing is creating a bad impression in the sense that people are accosted everywhere—in the streets, on the airport, at the bus stand. They accost you and force you to buy their literature, to buy their books. And this is creating a revulsion." Prabhupāda: So why you are forced? Suppose as preaching work . . . in our childhood we saw the Christian preachers were also standing on the road. So if we stand on the road and preach and sell our books, what is the fault? Interviewer: I put that. He said you are doing what the Christian . . . (break) Prabhupāda: No. What is the problem? (break) No. The government allowed them, the Christian people. The government is allowing us also. Then where is the fault? Interviewer: The fault is . . . Prabhupāda: That is your imagination, fault. Interviewer: It's not a legal fault. Prabhupāda: Well, that's all right. We are preacher, we must preach in every way. We shall go everyone, that "Here is Kṛṣṇa consciousness literature. Kindly take it." That is our business. The government does not object to this. There are many cases in the court, and the court allowed, "Yes. They should sell." We have got some . . . (break) (faulty recording—not possible to properly hear; Prabhupada is arguing that as salesmen, if we canvass and people buy, there is nothing wrong in that) *Hari-śauri: (indistinct) . . . we distribute every week 22,000 books like this, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , 16,000 medium books . . . (indistinct) . . . magazines. So how is it possible we are forcing? About 150,000 people every week to take our books. *Prabhupāda: Not only that. Where is that letter? Standard Literature? Here, there is one English company, Standard Literature Company. They are proposing that "We shall purchase every quarterly 200 sets of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Let us settle terms." Do you mean to say it is extortion? And the professors are giving their opinion by extortion? It is appreciation. Unfortunately, you don't appreciate. Interviewer: But what is the reason your . . . Prabhupāda: Because there is substance. There is spiritual substance. They are appreciating. Interviewer: What is your analysis for why it is not being . . . (inaudible recording) *Prabhupāda: Because you have rejected. You have rejected. Your policy is now American, technology. You have given up spiritual (inaudible recording). Therefore in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, find out this verse, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām samādhau na vidhīyate (BG 2.44). Vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ . Those who are . . . whose attention is drawn to the material comforts, they cannot take an interest in spiritual life. (inaudible recording) Our attention is diverted how to improve materially. Therefore we are disinterested. But they have seen much about material advancement, they are not happy. Material advancement means generally, as we understand from the literature, viśayinaṁ saṅdarśanam atha yoṣitaṁ ca (CC Madhya 11.8). Material comfort means woman and money. So they have tasted all this woman and money enough. Woman, money are available very easily. But they are not interested. Interviewer: Sir, do you think it is necessary for India to eschew religion? *Prabhupāda: It is not religion. I have already explained. Did you not mark that this is spiritual knowledge? You are combination of spirit and matter. The spirit I have already explained. And if you don't take care of the spirit portion, then you are making suicide. You are losing the opportunity of your human life. It is essential. One should be cognizant of the spiritual necessity of life. Otherwise, you are losing the opportunity of this human form of life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Then you remain as cats and dogs, and there is risk, very risky life. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir (BG 2.13). You do not know what kind of body you are going to get next life. It is essential. You must be prepared . . . (break) . . . body, but you do not know what kind of body you are going to accept. That knowledge is lacking. Interviewer: One question. You have priced these books very high comparatively for the poorer countries. Do you have any plans to reduce . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "You have priced these books very high for poor countries." Haṁsadūta: We're printing locally now. The same books, but local printing so that they can be afforded by the public. Prabhupāda: Yes. When we print locally it will be sold at half price. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This Bhagavad*-gītā , for example, it's going to be sold to the masses at fifteen rupees in about three weeks. We are printing the Indian edition with 48 color plates. The government of India is giving us concessional paper for printing. They are very pleased with our . . . we're getting lot of concessional paper, so we are expanding the printing. Interviewer: What is the price of this edition? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is, in America, it's seven dollars, seven dollars ninety*-five cents. Prabhupāda: And what the Home Member has said? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Home Minister? The Home Minister recently said that he wants this movement to be spread all over the world. One of the prominent people said he wants this movement to be spread all over the world. Interviewer: Now, sir, from your lips, how to attain this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and to maintain it? Prabhupāda: Once you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will maintain. You won't have to . . . Interviewer: No, from your own, direct from your lips, how to . . . *Prabhupāda: No, this direction is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that . . . (aside) Find out this verse, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is very simple thing. Find out this verse. (Indian guest is entering or leaving and Prabhupāda requests in Hindi for him to take prasādam ) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me. Offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." Interviewer: Which chapter? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's Chapter Nine, verse 34. *Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty? If you think of Kṛṣṇa, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto , is there any difficulty? There is no difficulty. Interviewer: I think his problem is, it is my problem as well. You see, the spiritual consciousness does not stay at the same level. Sometimes you are well absorbed. At other times you do all the arja , the arja , the bhakti . It's not a constant factor. Prabhupāda: No, you have to keep it constantly. Interviewer: How to do it? That is the problem. Prabhupāda: That we have see. If you come to our center, live with us, you'll see how we are doing it. You are welcome. You can live with us any time or any period of time. You'll see how we are doing that. Interviewer: Thank you, but you know I have been living here quite often, but . . . Prabhupāda: We have our centers. We have got big centers in Bombay, in Navadvīpa, in Vṛndāvana. We have got very comfortable guesthouse. So you can come and live with us and see practically. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If you all don't mind, just for five minutes, we would like to read the selected extracts from some leading scholars about this movement. We're not reading the views of Western scholars. These books are being used in five thousand universities, including Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, but some of the leading Indian scholars, so you also get an understanding of the Indian appreciation of Prabhupāda's activities. This, for example, is a letter from Mr. Ghosh, District and Summon Judge in West Bengal: "I'm highly impressed at the sincerity and devotion of the disciples of the International Society of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. A visit to the Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir, West Bengal, sublimes the mind from all harsh talk and disturbing influences." Then . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Stop now. Don't divert attention. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a letter from Śrī Ambarish Sarkar, General Secretary of the Nadia District Congress Committee. "I have had an opportunity to visit the Śrī Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir on the 12th August, 1975. It is absolutely a religious institution. Jayapātāka Swami has devoted all of his efforts and endeavors to organize and propound the sacred name of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. I'm impressed by his charming manner and strength. Although it is a religious institution, this organization has performed many social services. Many poor and destitute families have had an opportunity to work, and at the same time they have become worshipers of Lord Śrī Caitanya. To engage these workers, so many industrial centers have already been started, such as handloom cloth, printing, etc. I wish this organization, with its help of the local people, all success." Now . . . *Prabhupāda: We're not only chanting, we are giving them work. We are trying to become self*-sufficient, the same idea of Gandhi's village organization, so they may not come out from the village. They'll be satisfied, village economics. That we are doing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Prabhupāda is doing the same thing in America now. Prabhupāda's . . . Prabhupāda: America we have nine . . . eleven centers like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Farms. This is a review from a local, from O. P. Baradraj, Principal of Government College for Men, Chandigarh. Prabhupāda: One minute. Perhaps you are, any representative of Novara Times here? Interviewer: Yes, he is here. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you published, I think two years before, about our New Vrindavan. And you stated that it is a wonderful land, that . . . what is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Dudh aur dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (River of milk and curd is flowing.) Prabhupāda: Adhyatmika ki Yamuna aur doodh dahi ki nadi beh rahi hai. (The Yamuna of spirituality and the river of milk and curd is flowing.) It is your remark. You have seen. Your representative went there and saw it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In October '74. Interviewer: Yes. Along with photographs. Prabhupāda: In big, whole page article with the . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) . . . published a series of four . . . three articles on last year's Janmāṣṭamī. This review from Mr. Baradraj . . . Prabhupāda: We are giving cow protection in the country where they are eaten by the people. Their staple food, beef, and they are accepting this movement, giving cow protection. Interviewer: Which are those areas? Prabhupāda: West Virginia, Philadelphia, New Orleans and . . . where? Miami, Canada, Vancouver. Like that. Interviewer: So if you don't mind, what is bad about eating . . . people who are eating beef? What is bad about it? Prabhupāda: Bad means you become bad. That's all. You can see these things are . . . Interviewer: But we can eat goat's meat, and other animal's meat. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And the thing is that cow is especially recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā , kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44), that you must produce enough food grains by agriculture and give protection to the cows. That means if you have got enough food grains to eat and if you have got enough milk to get fatty substance, then your whole economic question is solved. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). If you get sufficient food, there is no question of agitation. Everyone is satisfied, animal and man. So you must produce. That is recommendation in the Bhagavad-gītā . Interviewer: Sir, in the modern technological . . . Prabhupāda: Modern, we are not talking of modern or . . . we're talking . . . Interviewer: In this age, how has the, you know, instrument of production because of this tractor, mechanization of agriculture? *Prabhupāda: So that is your interpretation. But we are trying to present Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. That is our mission, that you produce food grains sufficiently and give protection to the cows so that food grains and milk will give you all benefits of economic question. You'll be satisfied. That's all. Not only that, I have practically seen that by God's arrangement there are so much land on this planet that you can produce ten times foodstuff of the whole population. But they are not doing that. They are utilizing land . . . just like in Africa I have seen, enough land is there, but what they are doing? They are keeping some cows and bulls, and when they are grown up . . . they are not given anything to eat; there is enough grass. And as soon as they are fatty, they are taken to the slaughterhouse—not for their own eating, but exporting. This business is going on. Similar business is going on in Australia and New Zealand. Unnecessarily they are killing these cows, and this shortage of foodstuff and shortage of milk, this is not good arrangement. *The recommended process in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). If you have sufficient foodstuff, then everyone is satisfied. And it is the duty of the vaiśya class, kṛṣi go-rakṣya vāṇijyam, go-rakṣya vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). The, according to Bhagavad-gītā , this is the business of the vaiśyas . The brāhmaṇas , they should be very much highly educated, enlightened in spiritual knowledge. The kṣatriyas , they should govern, give protection. The vaiśyas , they should produce enough food. And those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya , śūdras , they can help. That's all. This is their . . . then everyone will be satisfied. The society will go on. Just like in your body you require brain, the head—you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. Similarly, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . That is essential. If you have simply brain and no leg, then it is also useless. There must be brain and leg also. There must be brāhmaṇa, there must be śūdra, there must be . . . then the social arrangement is perfect. Interviewer: Would that mean that you support the ancient caste system? Prabhupāda: Huh? It is not caste system; it is division of labor. It is not caste system. A class of men must be intelligent; a class of men must be strong to give protection; and a class of men must be to produce food; *and a class of men, general worker. It is not caste system. Bhagavad*-gītā never says caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13): according to quality and work. You have made it caste system. You have no qualification of a brāhmaṇa , you are calling "I am brāhmaṇa ." That is caste system. But if you have got the quality of a brāhmaṇa and you work as a brāhmaṇa , that is necessary. That is necessary. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ . *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Could we just take two minutes of your time? This is a review from Śrī Baradraj, Principal of Government College for Men, Chandigarh. He says, " Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is one of the great classics of India. This commentary is a significant contribution to the religious literature of this country. Many of the conflicting views on certain ślokas have been beautifully resolved by Swāmījī. I congratulate the members of the Society for bringing out this wonderful work in such a lucid form. I shall be looking forward to the other publications." This is a review from Dr. Varshneya, senior professor and Head of Hindi Department, Dean and Curator of Arts, honorary librarian, Allahabad University, Allahabad. "Śrī A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda has really done a great service to Indian philosophy, religion and culture by translating Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam into English, with learned commentaries, and has thus provided source material to the Western world. Other philosophical and religious works published by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust also present a golden opportunity to the Western philosophers and scholars to drink deep at the celestial fountain of ancient Indian philosophy and spiritual wisdom." I'm just reading a few very quick ones. *There's one from a leading professor in Chandigarh, who you must be knowing, Dr. Jagadish Sharma, M.A., . . . (indistinct) . . . Delhi? He's from Punjab University. Author of nineteen books including Encyclopedia of India. So here is what Dr. Sharma says: "India's contribution towards the revivalism of the Hindu civilization culture by way of printing the Harvard Oriental Series was tremendous. But the work done by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is unsurpassable." He says it's even greater. "His Holiness has done a great service to the Indian culture by re*-interpreting the concepts enshrined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . This edition of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will go a long way to help the scientists in rediscovering phenomena of the universe which is yet to be discovered. The printing and the get-up of this book is excellent. The thoughts of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam radiate to anyone who sees it. This book helps to brighten the gloomy and dark clouds which are covered by the nuclear fear and apprehension of society." Prabhupāda: Where is that book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness? Some of my students, they are Ph.D's in science. They have written this book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness . And we are going to publish another book, Life Comes From Lif e. Interviewer: Sir, why don't you present us one set of . . . (laughter) Some part . . . Prabhupāda: Because this is our means of income. Kindly give us some contribution, you take as many . . . (laughter) Interviewer: I could only purchase one book. I cannot purchase four dozen books. Now you are here, I think you should present us one set so that we may read this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a library here where everyone can come and read. Besides, five or six other . . . fifteen libraries in Chandigarh have all our books. You can visit either of those fifteen or the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (guests talk at once) Interviewer: Thank you very much. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So would any of you like to have any pictures of Gurujī? Or . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- October 26, 1976, Vrndavana *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks how many pages. Yogānanda asks how many . . . because they say that you sent a newsletter to all the GBCs and He asks how many pages was the newsletter. And I said just two lines. Prabhupāda: Newspaper? Hari-śauri: Newsletter to the GBC. Prabhupāda: What is that newsletter? Hari-śauri: You said: "Please be informed that Nitāi has become a venomous serpent." Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: "Please be informed that Nitāi has become a venomous serpent." Prabhupāda: So this has been sent? (laughs) Hari-śauri: Yes, to the GBC. *Pṛthu*-putra: Yogānanda asked how many pages, when he heard about the newsletter. He thought that you spoke so long about that. And I just said, "Just two lines." But they never asked me what the letter said. Prabhupāda: Yes, two lines is sufficient. Dhanañjaya: Punar mūṣiko bhava . Prabhupāda: Ah? Dhanañjaya: Punar mūṣiko bhava . Prabhupāda: What is that? Dhanañjaya: Punar mūṣiko bhava . Prabhupāda: Yes. This is exactly the same case. Punar mūṣiko bhava , you know the whole story? A mūṣika , a mouse, was made a tiger, and the tiger wanted to eat the saintly person who made him. First of all he was mouse. So he came to the saintly person, "Sir, I am troubled. Give me some benediction." "What do you want?" "Now, the cat always chases." "All right, you become cat so that you'll not be attacked." Then after some time he came, "I am being chased by the dog." "All right, you become a dog." From cat to dog, from mouse to . . . then again he came. "Still they are chasing me. Fox." And then in this way, and ultimately he was made a tiger. And after becoming a tiger, he began to look, staring on the . . . "What do you mean by this?" "I shall eat you." "Oh? You become again a mouse." (laughter) Again he become mouse. That's all. Hari-śauri: The perfect example. Prabhupāda: Ha? Hari-śauri: The perfect example. *Pṛthu*-putra: Now he look like dirty. You know, like brown. The dhotī's not white. It's like brownish, you know, like . . . Prabhupāda: He harassed. "He has not increased my . . ." Hearing and hearing, he wants to go. So why not, if he found some real disciplic succession, some bābājī , why he did not remain there? He is criticizing that our is not in the proper succession. So why he did not remain where he found the proper succession? Why he's sometimes in Vṛndāvana, sometimes Delhi, sometimes here? Why he is loitering? Crazy. Unfortunate. Unnecessarily picking out some trouble. *Hari-śauri: Fault*-finding. Prabhupāda: The bābājīs , they are against anything preaching. They are very, very much against preaching. So I am preaching. Bābājīs , the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs , and all of them, their idea is that I am ruining this bhajana and Hindu dharma . This is the propaganda. What I am writing, they are all wrong, and they are making . . . and they try to poison my disciples as far as possible so that the whole institution may be poisoned and break. This is their propaganda. Hari-śauri: That was one thing that Nitāi put in his letter, that the teachings of ISKCON are completely opposite or contradictory to what is actually in the śāstra . Prabhupāda: Now he has become tiger. He wants to kill that philosophy. When he did not know anything, he came to us. Now he has become learned, he wants to criticize. The same philosophy, "You have made me tiger, now I can see you are my eatable . . . (indistinct) . . ." (laughs) He could not find out any other eatable. "I shall eat you." The rascal. What can be done? (end) Conversation -- October 31, 1976, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: . . . I want to do something in India. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, if you can arrange. Now I am purchasing car. I have given money to Gargamuni. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: So one car here in Delhi side, one in Calcutta side, one in . . . (indistinct) . . . for my going. And he is a good driver, he will drive. Eh? I do not know, but he said. (laughter) Hari-śauri: (indistinct) . . . I don't know about in India. Different thing altogether. Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta is also a good driver. Haṁsadūta: I am good for nothing. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Driver we'll get, there is no . . . so I want to preach little in the village. So for that purpose, in the big bus like that, we shall go with our tents, and we camp in a place where there is water, and begin our preaching. And Hindi books we are getting. In this way let me try in India, in the village, not in the city. Devotee: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: For us there is no problem, Prabhupāda, but it may be difficult for Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: No, what is difficult? (laughter) But I want to do something for India in the village. So that I . . . that, we are getting lands, making one center, we can go here and there, not continually. Suppose here is a center, we go sometimes this side, sometimes this side, sometimes come back again. Haṁsadūta: Um hmm. Hari-śauri: Find one good camping spot. Prabhupāda: Yes. You go early in the morning and do something. If it is favorable . . . just like in Bengal they are doing. Get good reception. You have heard it? Haṁsadūta: Yes, I heard. Prabhupāda: Very good reception. Haṁsadūta: Villagers give the best reception. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: Because they're . . . Prabhupāda: Still. Haṁsadūta: They're still faithful to culture. Hari-śauri: Unless we get the farm, this farming scheme set up within the next . . . Prabhupāda: We are getting so many. Hari-śauri: We're getting the farms, but we haven't got the management, so . . . Prabhupāda: Management, that is in your hands. You have to . . . who will give you management? You have to manage local—local men. Bon Mahārāja was failure that he could not get the local men. But I did not try to bring men from India and preach in England or America. Akṣayānanda: Hmm. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? The British Empire was established on management. They did not bring men from England. Few managers, that's all. That is called management. One man can control hundreds and thousands of men, and that is management. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Locally attracted. These Britishers came here, they introduced this zamindarī system. Haṁsadūta: The what? Prabhupāda: Zamindarī system. Haṁsadūta: Zamindar . Prabhupāda: Landlord. Haṁsadūta: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So any third*-class man, if he's given some land, naturally he will be very much pleased. They created that aristocracy. So he selected some men that, "You give me four annas per bīghā , and whatever you can collect, that is your." That is the old system in India, zamindarī system. So collector, collector, the local collector, he appointed somebody. They used to give one lease that, "You give government four annas per bīghā , and whatever you can collect, that is your business." So that created an aristocratic society, and they all supported Britishers, because they're obliged. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly in business also, they appointed brokers that, "I am bringing a cloth from Manchester, if you can sell you'll get so much commission." So without any investment . . . Haṁsadūta: They were in business. Prabhupāda: A broker club business. So the businessmen, the zamindars , and gradually they started their factories, railways—in this way they started. And they are big politicians, so it is their management. And they failed when things were mismanaged. First of all they created friendship, and later on when they were in power, they created enmity. Then it is failed. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: First of all friendship, and that established them. And then they began to create enmity, Hindus against Muslim, Muslim . . . they wanted to stay. When they forgot this idea that if they wanted to stay for the benefit of the people, nobody could drive them away. But their policy was for the benefit of the English people. Therefore they failed. Lord Curzon, he says a statement that, "If you want to stay in India, rule India for the benefit of Indian people. You can keep control over India. They are fond of kings, so one member of the royal family can become king here, and they'll earn respect and honor, these Indian people. But rule for their benefit. Then British Empire will stay." Very good advice, but his advice was not taken. You have seen Lord Curzon's statue near the . . . in front of the Victoria Memorial Hall? Haṁsadūta: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: He was a very good governor*-general. Many gentlemen came, they ruled very conscientiously, and the last one, that rascal Chelmsford (chuckles), he created havoc. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: I saw in London . . . near London there is a village, Chelmsford, and he is Lord Chelmsford. We thought Chelmsford, the big state. (laughter) We were under the impression Thames River is four times bigger than Ganges, and (laughter) it is a canal. When I saw it, it is nothing but a canal. But they advertise this river, very big river. And underneath the water, men are going, and upper and wonderful. Big Ben, that Big Ben advertisement. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Parliament. All photograph (laughter) actually. Downing Street, 10 Downing Street, Prime Minister's office and so on. And actually it's all (chuckles) no importance. Parliament, big, big advertisement. People are still going, they are paying fees to see. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Now that is their income. Hari-śauri: Yeah, tourism is their biggest source of income, now. Prabhupāda: It is always cloudy. People are going to see the Westminster Abbey and Parliament. Haṁsadūta: The whole tourist industry runs on propaganda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: When you get there, there is nothing to see. Prabhupāda: In Parliament they have got old records bound up, almirah. You have seen? What it will do now? Speech of such and such person, speech of . . . (indistinct) (long pause) Prabhupāda: What they . . . why this water is? Hari-śauri: Well, they are watering the garden. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Were you thinking of any particular time when you wanted to do this village program? Prabhupāda: Hmm. I have nowhere experience. Hari-śauri: Haṁsadūta Mahārāja has traveled around . . . Haṁsadūta: You can do it from here, even. You can start track from Vṛndāvana. (car door slams) Prabhupāda: I think some car has come? Akṣayānanda: Maybe that's Bhīma. I'll check. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Maybe you could do it from Bengal, from Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Do the villages there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Because . . . Haṁsadūta: Here the weather is already getting cold. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: And in Hyderabad the peoples don't speak Hindi. They speak Telugu.. Hari-śauri: Bengal seems like the best place, because right now at least the weather is really nice. And Gargamuni's men have a lot of experience there, Śatadhanya and Jayapatāka. They know all the villages. Could do some good programs. Prabhupāda: This blood pressure is troubling. (break) They are chanting, "Say Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) They're taking, "Mind control." Haṁsadūta: Yeah, mind control. Prabhupāda: Ordinarily they cannot charge anything, mind control, brainwash—subtle thing. Just like I . . . "I am sick." "How you are feeling?" "I am feeling some pain in the belly." Who is going to see? (laughter) (makes groaning noise of pain) Who can say? It is like that. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: If you say that, "I am feeling some pain in this brain" or in there, who is going to see? Haṁsadūta: Yeah, who can prove it? Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to believe me, that's all. Haṁsadūta: I noticed in several of the articles, though, they mentioned that this District Attorney is now going to expand his investigation to see where the money goes. This is what they're really interested in. And when they see . . . what will happen is, when they see that some of the devotees collecting three, four hundred dollars on the street, then they will print this in the newspaper, and in this way . . . Prabhupāda: But they collect money by selling book. Haṁsadūta: I know, but people don't understand this. They simply see that, "Oh, these are astronomical sums of money being collected. So what is being done with this money by people who are just chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? What do they do with it?" Then, "Oh, they have bought this big building in New York. They are doing . . . spending money like this, like that." Ultimately this is what it always come to—money. They want to see what is happening with the money. Prabhupāda: And similarly here also, "Where they are getting money?" Haṁsadūta: Yeah, because wherever there is money transaction, the government wants to take some. They feel, "Well, we should have some of this money for ourselves, also." Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: So this may be a problem in this case. The thing about brainwashing is not at all important. The important thing is if they look into our financial . . . Prabhupāda: That is our BBT Trust . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . activities. Prabhupāda: That by the sales of . . . sales proceeds, we fifty percent for printing book and fifty percent for expanding, temples. Haṁsadūta: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is religion. That is clearly written there. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So how they can check it? We are selling books. Haṁsadūta: I don't think that in . . . in the end they will not be able to do anything, but for some time they can give us some trouble, harass us. Prabhupāda: So we have got already experience what it is to be done. Suggest. Haṁsadūta: Well, we have to make a presentation of our movement properly, just like Tamāla suggested in the letter. Prominent persons, they have to speak on our behalf. And of course, the books must be in order. Prabhupāda: Another thing, that all the Indians in Europe and America, they should sign that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine religious. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Similarly here also, all the Kṛṣṇa conscious persons, especially here in Vṛndāvana, all the Gosvāmīs, they should be approached that this is the genuine Indian culture. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Hari-śauri: Perhaps we could even get statements from some of the favorable Indian ministers in the government. Just like this Home Minister and Tarun Kanti Ghosh in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: That would be very weighty. Prabhupāda: Yes. So do like that, that "This is genuine. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine cultural and religious movement." This should be taken from all prominent persons and sent there. And the copies of the standing order for all the universities. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Hari-śauri: The order forms. Prabhupāda: Original orders, that should be copied and sent. This arrangement, ask them all over India. And besides that, we have recently got a testimony of one university authorities, just like one Goswami from Calcutta University, and many others they have got. These copies should be sent immediately to. We can approach even the Chief Justice of Allahabad High Court. He came here. The minister here, the Governor of Punjab, he came to see me, the Governor . . . Hari-śauri: Andhra Pradesh government also. Prabhupāda: Eh? Andhra Pradesh, chief minister. Hari-śauri: Minister of Endowments. Prabhupāda: Minister Endowments. Collect all these and send it that, "This is a genuine movement because it is great cultural movement. Therefore Swami Bhaktivedanta wanted to give it to Europe, who are in the darkness." So anyway, now they are feeling the action of the medicine. Haṁsadūta: (laughs) Yeah. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) So many big, big signboards, "Kṛṣṇa is coming." "Here is Kṛṣṇa." (sounds of pages being turned) "Here is Kṛṣṇa." Hari-śauri: Yeah, every heading has a "Kṛṣṇa" written. Prabhupāda: "Here is Kṛṣṇa." That I . . . that is our trap. Haṁsadūta: Yes, the subject matter . . . Prabhupāda: That will . . . that will help us in selling Kṛṣṇa books. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: "What is this nonsense Kṛṣṇa? Let us see." (chuckles) It is not in our disfavor, it is in favor. But still we have to defend. So as I suggested, you collect. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: And from Vṛndāvana you can have signature from anyone. Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hmm. All the Gosvāmīs. Hari-śauri: That Atul Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Atul Kṛṣṇa, yes. Anyone will sign for Kṛṣṇa: "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is genuine India cultural religious movement." They have got doubt, "Whether it is bona fide religion?" Yes, it is. Hari-śauri: Well, you see the process of chanting, it is not common practice, and they think it is a kind of inducement. Prabhupāda: It is kind of brainwash process. Haṁsadūta: It is. (laughs) Hari-śauri: Cleansing. Prabhupāda: Brainwash? No, it is heart wash. (laughter) We can send this, "It is not brainwash, but it is heart wash." Of course, brain and heart practically same. Hari-śauri: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Mmm. (pause) Prabhupāda: Our temple, where many people come. Our Māyāpur temple, Hyderabad temple . . . it is not only in Europe or America—in India in our temples, so many. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: It is genuine religious cult. You have to send all these people. Now note down and do all these things and send it. I can suggest. (noise in background) Haṁsadūta: It is disturbing. Prabhupāda: There is some commotion all over the world . . . (break) . . . that, "The child . . . our child is lost altogether." Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: But there who go . . . (indistinct) . . . they're not lost. Haṁsadūta: No, no. Prabhupāda: They come back again. But here (chuckles), Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, one who comes, he'll be lost. (laughs) Haṁsadūta: Brainwashed. Prabhupāda: There is no hope of their coming. And Gargamuni's father tried so much to get him back. Then he became hopeless. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He was pet child of his father and mother, and practically they closed their factory and everything. They become . . . they divorced and . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: Collapse. Prabhupāda: Collapse. I sent Gargamuni, "Go and . . ." Haṁsadūta: I remember, he went home for some time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: To try to get into that business. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: He was detected, though, because he wouldn't eat meat. (chuckles) Prabhupāda: No. He tried his best, his father. Then his father, "This child is lost." Haṁsadūta: This term "brainwash," it comes from the Korean war and the Vietnamese war. They would, if they would capture a prisoner, especially if he was an officer, high ranking officer, they had some methods of what they say brainwash to turn his mind so that he would accept the enemy viewpoint. And as this happened to a person it was considered to be very, very . . . Hari-śauri: Great victory for the enemy. Haṁsadūta: Great victory for the enemy. Just like because a high ranking officer in the army was captured by the enemy, then they would brainwash him. They had this, some process . . . Prabhupāda: In Pakistani they kill all brain, in Bangladesh. Anyone who worked in high profession like businessman, they caught and shut down. It was worse to kill. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because everywhere the big men, they guide the nation. Haṁsadūta: Yes. People are very much afraid of this idea of being brainwashed. Hari-śauri: They think that their minds can be changed without them knowing about it, so it scares them. Prabhupāda: For me it is better to remain in Vṛndāvana or die. (laughter) Hmm. Because they may be very envious, "Here is the man who is behind all this." (laughter) Haṁsadūta: Yes. In Germany, this one man, he wrote that this movement is very dangerous, because these boys and girls who have come to this movement, they completely . . . they make themselves completely subservient to the dictation of one man. Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: Whatever the man will say, they will do. Prabhupāda: Charmistic? What is called? Charmistic guru ? He has said. Dr. . . . Hari-śauri: Charismatic. Prabhupāda: Charismatic. (laughs) Yes, what is that charismatic? Haṁsadūta: Charisma means a person who has a very strong attraction; he attracts. Prabhupāda: He has said. Actually our whole movement is going on on this. Everyone is carrying the charismatic, (laughs) all. Hari-śauri: Yeah, they know there's something different about our movement, I mean from any other. Everybody who sees the devotees for the first time, they immediately know these people are completely different from anyone else. Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir , yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23), this is the Vedic principle of our movement. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau . Haṁsadūta: Firm faith. Prabhupāda: To respect and love the spiritual master as God. Therefore it is brainwash. Haṁsadūta: This is the strength of our movement: faith in guru and śāstra . Prabhupāda: And everyone is writing. Let them write that, so they see that, "Why this one man is so respectfully accepted? It is brainwash." Hari-śauri: Hmm. Prabhupāda: They may sometimes give me trouble. Haṁsadūta: Yes, generally it happens like that. If someone becomes very prominent, then they want to remove him. This is the tendency in the world. Hari-śauri: Yeah, because the demons, they think anyone who will allow themselves to become the servant of someone else, then they think he has got very weak character. Then they accuse the person who is in charge of manipulating that person. Prabhupāda: Just like there are so many men now, they are against this Sai Baba. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Sai Baba is actually doing that brainwash. But they think of me also like that. Haṁsadūta: Yes, because people cannot discriminate. They have no power to discriminate. They group us with all these other bogus people. Prabhupāda: But that happened when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was being praised by the Nawab. They were asking about Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "What is the position of this man that so many people are following Him?" So Sanātana Goswami, who was very bright, took it as a warning and asked Caitanya Mahāprabhu that "You leave this place as soon as possible." Haṁsadūta: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was not afraid, but He, as usual, He left that place. But Sanātana Goswami, at that time minister . . . Haṁsadūta: He could understand. Prabhupāda: He took advice, the Nawab was so serious about Him. A Muhammadan may do something. So he said: "It is not good to stay here. You should go away." They decided that, "We shall go now with Him, but in the meantime let Him go." Because there were parts of India, Muhammadan influence, especially Bengal was Muhammadan kingdom. So this was warning. Then he told the Nawab that, "He is a beggar. Why do you think of Him as serious man? He is beggar. Some people follow Him, not many." So he said: "Don't try to mislead me. I know. He's not beggar, He's God. Otherwise how so many people are following Him?" The Nawab, he said that. Haṁsadūta: Huh. Prabhupāda: "He's not ordinary man. Don't say that He's beggar," he said. (laughs) Nobody follows a beggar like that, that is it. After all, he was king, he had some brain. (laughs) So he wanted to brainwash, "Don't think of Him very seriously. A beggar. Some people, sentimental." "No, don't say like that. A beggar is never followed by so many men." Haṁsadūta: The same thing happened to Jesus. Because so many people would follow him, the government became very . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That, what do you call it? Crucified him? Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He was becoming very popular. So . . . Haṁsadūta: And at least according to Bible, it appeared that the Jewish priests, they went to the governor or the chief man at that time, and they demanded that he has to do something about this man. Prabhupāda: They have proposed it. That Houston politician, "It is spreading like epidemic." Hmm? (aside) Come. "It is spreading like epidemic. Something must be done." Otherwise one day they'll capture our government." That's a fact. If so many young men join this movement, they will vote. Because your country is democratic. (conchshell blows) Do this what I suggested. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. You see them . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) "What is this pressure?" "Sir is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (laughter) And very bad." Some day somebody says: "No, it is good." (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa pressure. Haṁsadūta: That pressure is being felt. *Prabhupāda: Cap tar porche. Cap porlei bat bolbe . . . ar ta na hole ke kar katha bole? (He is getting pressure. If he gets pressure then he will talk . . . otherwise who cares for whom?) Otherwise, who cares for whom? There are so many things. Here also, they are feeling the pressure, the so*-called svāmīs , yogīs , gosvāmīs , religious groups, Māyāvādīs . . . Hari-śauri: Communists. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: Communists, too. Prabhupāda: Communists. That is our success. Everyone is now feeling the pressure. Cap. (Pressure.) and they are talking Baat, (Talk.) In such a short time, so much money, so much expansion, so many devotees, what is this? That is Kṛṣṇa. Haṁsadūta: Like Vāmanadeva expanded His foot, and He covered the . . . Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Haṁsadūta: First people thought, "Oh these are crazy fellows," and now suddenly they are everywhere. Prabhupāda: Amader onek baro baro sob professional ra boleche sob. (All the professionals said this about us.) Almost all of them, doctor, who have spoken. You have read that? Haṁsadūta: Yes, I have read. All respectable. Prabhupāda: Indian and American, all learned scholars, they have spoken. Where is that statement given? And Dr. Shaligram, he has spoken very nice. Where is that? Dr. Shaligram, Indian Professor, anthropology or something like that. So now better to see the movement from behind, who is that man behind it. (laughter) Haṁsadūta: Now they're looking for you. Prabhupāda: That British government said: "Gandhi in jail is more dangerous than he is free." (laughter) Hari-śauri: These are the statements. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Dr. Shaligram? Hari-śauri: Yeah, Dr. Shaligram Shukla. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Education: he graduated from the University of Cambridge and a B.A. in Classical Languages 1962. Graduated from Cornell University, Ithaca, New York, in Tibetan Linguists and he has a Ph.D. in Linguistics. Prabhupāda: Cambridge? *Hari-śauri: He has several . . . he has several books out. "He was born in India in a traditional brāhmaṇa family. He learned Sanskrit at the age of 10, and his knowledge of the Hindu scriptures written in Sanskrit is very profound. He has committed to memory the entire Bhagavad*-gītā scripture and one fourth of the Ṛg Veda . He himself is a worshiper of Kṛṣṇa. His teachings is a way of life, and he is extremely competent to judge whether the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is authentic and bona fide." Devotee (2): He came to see you in Washington. Prabhupāda: Hmm. *Hari-śauri: So this was his statement, "There are eighteen chapters in Bhagavad*-gītā , eighteen thousand verses in the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam and several hundred verses in the Upaniṣads. These are the literary works which form the foundation of Indian culture and religion. They are all in Sanskrit. His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, has transcribed these texts, has translated them and has explained their essence in English . . . from Sanskrit into English. One is an ancient classical language and the other a foreign language, a difficult task indeed. I have state . . ." (break) *Prabhupāda: Brahman means unlimited happiness. Ananta brahma*-saukyam ananta suddhyed sattvam yasmād suddhyed satya . You purify your existence and you are hankering after happiness, you'll get the unlimited, greatest happiness, yasmād brahma-saukyam anantam . Hmm. Hari-śauri: So Dr. Allen Gerson says: "I am here today as a citizen who dislikes injustice, as a person whose own people, because of their religious beliefs, are being persecuted repeatedly, and as a scientist who knows how ignorance can turn the normal rationality of people into blind hatred." He's Jewish. "As a citizen I can see a great injustice perpetrated here. Several people, all of legal age, have chosen a lifestyle which, because it differs in form from our lifestyle, has been viewed by their families as unacceptable. These families, with honest but misguided intentions, have had their children removed from the Hare Kṛṣṇa temple and have attempted to reprogram them to the behavior and attitudes of society at large. The reprogramming obviously did not work, and their children returned to the movement, thus angering and frustrating their parents. Not being able to understand the wishes of their children, or their behavior, or their motivation for returning, and needing to blame someone, they effected through devious means to have two members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." Prabhupāda: He has used very nice strong words. *Hari-śauri: Hmm. "They effected through devious means to have two members of the New York Hare Kṛṣṇa centers to be arrested. Therein lies the inception of the injustice. To compound it, a judge and a grand jury agreed with their charges of unlawful imprisonment and brainwashing—a charge which is unheard of to my knowledge in civil legal proceedings—and ordered the devotees to be jailed. As a citizen I am appalled by the over*-reaction, the lack of understanding and the hate that finds wrongdoing not only by the people that make the charges, but by the court as well." Haṁsadūta: He says the same thing. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: That this charge is unheard of in the legal history, brainwashing and . . . what was it? Brainwashing what? Hari-śauri: Brainwashing. Haṁsadūta: That there was never such a charge in the history of law, someone who's been brainwashed. Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "As a person whose own people have been persecuted for their own beliefs, I can sympathize with any . . ." Prabhupāda: You can charge anyone, brainwashing. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Hari-śauri: That means anybody who does anything is being brainwashed . . . (indistinct) . . . brainwashing. (continues reading) "The fault of this religion differs from our . . ." Prabhupāda: Mind control. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: These are charges? (laughter) "I'm controlling your mind," charges. No, you are controlling my mind. These are the charges. (chuckles) He's controlling his mind. (laughter) Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "The fault of this religion differs from our Western thought. Throughout history the group tried to find God through beliefs other than those which were held by the majority, and if those beliefs were very different from the majority's, such beliefs were almost always . . ." Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . their arguments so strong. Devotee: Unbeatable debaters. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Yeah, and their theories were that because . . . because they are . . . they have accepted Your Divine Grace as the absolute authority, that they will do anything that you say, and therefore these people are very dangerous. They don't care for anything. They're not interested in the normal standards and goals . . . Prabhupāda: Charmistic, charmistic . . . what is that? Haṁsadūta: Charismatic. Hari-śauri: Charismatic. Haṁsadūta: Charismatic. There is . . . they usually use this word to describe a person who attracts people, but no one can understand why. Prabhupāda: Therefore they cannot explain: brainwash, mind control, charismatic, like that they use. Hari-śauri: Yeah, he says that here, because of their own ignorance then they find fault. He goes on, "From this misunderstanding came fear, then hatred, and from hatred grew injustices and often atrocities. An injustice is now being perpetrated through ignorance. Are atrocities far off? This may sound like an overstatement, but for those who say: 'It can't happen here,' it already has, such as to the American Indians and to our people, Japanese descendant. The time to stop such action is at the beginning, now. The way to stop it is to replace ignorance with knowledge, and hatred with understanding. Sometimes people stand off at a distance and look at another person's belief and laugh at them or fear them. But as they get closer, they may come to understand how similar the observer's beliefs may be to their own beliefs. As a scientist, a psychologist, I have tried to learn about and understand the Hare Kṛṣṇa people. For nearly a year I have spent hours each week talking with, reading about, and testing members of the movement. I have been to their temples in this country and in Europe. I have eaten in their homes and I have been to their children's schools. What I have found is a group of people trying to find God and live as close to the way that He would like them to live. There is no place in their lives for immorality, for cruelty to other people or animals, for artificial stimulants or harmful chemicals such as alcohol, drugs or tobacco. At first glance their approach to God may seem alien to us, with their different dress, the incense and the many statues and their unique ceremonies, but a closer look reveals similarities to our religious practices that are just the same. In Catholicism we find the holy water, chanting on the rosary, statues of saints and incense. And in Judaism we find the blowing of the shofar." Prabhupāda: And they say the cow's urine, they are forcing to eat. (laughter) Eta holo pancamrta te, gow mutro dite hoy. Seta heading dicche ye, (In pancamrita you have to mix cow's urine, so they made a headline of it) . . . that they are forcing the devotees to drink cow's urine. (laughter) These are the charges: brainwash, mind control, forcing cow's urine to drink. (laughter) How clever they are to find out some fictitious faults. Haṁsadūta: You see, you see they have . . . they put these two boys in a mental institution. Yes. When they can't . . . this is what happens in these countries. When they can't find any legal point, they can put the person into a mental institution to be examined. The premise is that if we find that a person is drinking cow's urine, we may think he must be crazy, because we have never heard of such a thing. So in this way they can . . . Devotee (2): Commit them. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, they commit them . . . Devotee (2): Forcibly they just put them into a mental institution where they're observed. *Hari-śauri: Where they . . . that observation, so*-called observation, means that they give them all kinds of drugs which make them very dopey, and then they influence them to try to become normal again, what they think is normal. Sometimes they give them electric shocks, which leaves them . . . Prabhupāda: In the lunatic asylum. Hari-śauri: Yeah, which leaves them in a very shocked condition, and then they, what they call reprogram them. That means they brainwash them back into another way, to another style of life, like that. Guest: Eirakam! Prabhupada! (They like this Prabhupāda.) Prabhupāda: Kare ekhane, Ranchi te kare. (Yes, they like this in Ranchi.) *Hari-śauri: So it goes on, (continues reading) "In Judaism we find the blowing of the shofar, or ram's horn, and in the Orthodox synagogue there is separation of men and women. Differences of dress are expressed amongst Orthodox Jews and amongst various Christian orders. Our own Pilgrim ancestors differed in dress from the Popish gentry of their time. I have studied and tested the Hare Kṛṣṇa people and have not found them to be weird or insane, only different from the mainstream. Like any other evangelical or proselytizing religion, their converts could only become converts if they choose to believe. For example, no one can drag a person to a Baptist Church and brainwash him into taking God into his heart. He has to want to accept willingly. No one is ever held against their will by the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. I have never seen it, nor have my colleagues ever seen it. In examining the various members of this religion, I have not found one who appears to be brainwashed or dopey*-like. In fact their mental health and normality astounds me. If you cannot accept Kṛṣṇa, God, they will sympathize with you and hope that you will eventually find Him and will wish you well as you go on your way. There have been devotees who have left the movement and have said negative things about it, but the sour grapes syndrome is not unusual for dropouts anyway. I wonder how many West Point dropouts vilify the Army, or how many seminary dropouts leave and disdain their religion? After a rational person spends time with the Hare Kṛṣṇa people and learns to understand them, he could never believe them to be guilty of the charges which have been made here in New York recently." Prabhupāda: That's all right, positive. Hari-śauri: And then this is Dr. Stillson Judah. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: He's a graduate from University of Washington, majoring in Oriental Studies, graduate from University of California with a Ph.D in Sanskrit and Indian Languages, and he received an honorary degree from Chapman College, Southern California. And he has various posts as professor of history of religion, etc . . . Prabhupāda: He has written about us big book. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Big book. Bring that, bring that book. After five years' scrutinizingly studying, statistics, graphics. And he has put my picture in it. Haṁsadūta: Looks like your book. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: O ki bolche sunun. (Listen to what he has to say.) Hari-śauri: Dr. Stillson Judah says: "The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, and more formally the International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, ISKCON, is a Western representation of an important Hindu sect, Vaiṣṇavism . . ." Prabhupāda: He says: "Important Hindu sect." How they can say whether it is a genuine? Important. Not only genuine but important, Vaiṣṇavism. *Hari-śauri: Hmm. (continues reading) ". . . whose worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, in one of His many forms is one of the most important religions of India. The American devotees of ISKCON worship Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Being, the highest Personality of Godhead, whose worship, according to the archaeological and epigraphic evidence, is pre*-Christian in origin, as found in India's early sacred texts, the Ṛg Veda , Atharva Veda , etc. The detailed history of Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is found in the religious text of the Bhāgavata Purāṇa , and the philosophical basis of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is found in India's most sacred book, the Bhagavad-gītā . These sacred texts and others have been translated and commented upon by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda and are being studied today in many major universities across the United States. The particular form of Vaisnavism of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement dates from Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, one of India's saints born in 1486 A.D. in Nadia, India. His immediate followers organized this philosophy in a number of Sanskrit texts, and His religious practices, such as chanting and dancing, are most authentically represented in America by the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees according to this tradition. Lord Caitanya, worshiped as the last incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, initiated a disciplic succession. In the mid nineteenth century, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura appeared in this spiritual lineage. Soon afterwards, his son Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, became the spiritual master of India's Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, and his most prominent student was Śrīla Prabhupāda. It was at Bhaktisiddhānta's command that Śrīla Prabhupāda later came to America to bring the teachings and practices of Caitanya to the West. My study of these American devotees, which I have pursued since 1968, was published in my book, Hare Krishna and the Counterculture, published by John Wiley and Sons in 1974, New York. The sociological data, revealed through a detailed questionnaire and many hours of taped interviews, indicates that many of the devotees had been influenced by the hippie culture of the 1960s. However, after they joined the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, their lives became completely changed from a life of drugs, illicit sex and violence to one of dedication to a spiritual discipline and morality and to helping others in their search for happiness. In this period of rapid social and cultural change . . ." Prabhupāda: This is the fact, in many cases. So many drunkards, so many violence . . . that . . . (name withheld) Haṁsadūta: (name withheld) Prabhupāda: Big drunkard. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: (name withheld) Hmm. Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "In this period of rapid social and cultural change, this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is giving many of our youths new meaning to their lives, without which many would have remained alienated, disenchanted, irresponsible citizens." This is a letter that was written by one devotee, Śravaṇānanda dāsa, by his mother. Śravaṇānanda is here in India. Shall I read this? Prabhupāda: Can read it, yes. Hari-śauri: My son Daniel, Śravaṇānanda dāsa, entered the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement almost five years ago. The only request that he made of me and my husband was that we read about the Hare Kṛṣṇa philosophy and try to understand his new way of life. My husband and I have read everything we could find about the movement and the philosophy. We have visited the Hare Kṛṣṇa centers in Philadelphia and New York frequently, always speaking to the devotees and having our questions answered. Evidently these youths feel a revulsion towards the sense gratification of forbidden . . . permissive values of our society. When I see how happy the devotees are . . ." Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta, Haṁsadūta? Hari-śauri: Haṁsadūta? Prabhupāda: The Ceylon is an educated, and if they are receiving, why not open a branch? Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "He recently returned home after almost three years in India. My husband and I could see the awareness and maturity in him gained from his experiences in working with the Indian people. He learned firsthand about a different culture, and it certainly has enriched his life. In our minds we can compare our son's life to the life of a Catholic monk or a religious Jew of the Hasidic sect. Do I think that my son is brainwashed? I can best answer this by answering the question, is our whole society not being brainwashed daily by the advertisement media—liquor, smoking, pornographic movies and literature? And which is worse? And what about the children who are being educated by the violence and killing on T.V.? I prefer that my son is devoting his life to the love of God and the service of humanity, a rare endeavor in this age. Since I know that my son has voluntarily chosen the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement to exercise these rights, and that he can leave it whenever he wishes, I cannot see how the term 'brainwashing' can be applicable to this movement. I sincerely believe from my contacts with many devotees that they are happy and have found fulfillment by loving and serving Lord Kṛṣṇa, God. This may not be my wish for my life, but my son has chosen it for his, and I wholeheartedly respect it." Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Guest: Eibar, apnar ki ektu bhalo lagche? (Is your health okay now?) Prabhupāda: Kalker ceye bhalo. Ekhane ekta (Better than yesterday. Here one) . . . (indistinct) Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Jela oi Nadiai, Yekhane Pagla Babar ashram hoyeche na! (District is Nadia, where the Pagla Baba's ashrama is.) Guest: Hya, hya, hya. (Yes, yes, yes.) Prabhupāda: Oikhane. (There.) Guest: Ami giyechilam. Sekhane ektu anyarakam jinis patra ache. (I went there. Some other types of things present there.) *Prabhupāda: Hmm, go*-sala ache, goru ekta ache. (a cowshed is there, and a cow as well.) Guest: Goru ekta! (A cow.) *Prabhupāda: Hya, bais bachor pac cha*-mas . . . (Yes not too old, only 22 years and 5 to 6 months . . .) Guest: (indistinct) . . . mandirer janye, utpadan er janye. (providing for the temple.) Prabhupāda: Manage korechi eikhane, jayga to gelei paoa yay. (Wherever we will go we can get a place, we have to manage here.) Guest: (indistinct) . . . sambhabana, erom hoyar ucit o. (possibility, and that must be done.) *Prabhupāda: Choto*-khato onek boi beriyeche amader samparke. (There are many small books published about us.) *Guest: Hm, choto*-khato. (small books.) Prabhupāda: Ar er boi to . . . (And this book is . . .) (indistinct) . . . (end) Conversation A -- November 2, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation on New York court case) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So a lot of these parents are saying that we should all be . . . we should be investigated. Now they are saying that we are not Hindus, and they are saying that by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the thinking of the brain stops. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So in New York the press is against us. But in Los Angeles it is going in our favor, he said (referring to report by Rāmeśvara). In Los Angeles they had kidnapped the best girl distributor. Now she has come back, but, ah . . . Prabhupāda: So these things will happen. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are, as soon as we become very important, our enemies, they will try to suppress us. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is what they are doing. Prabhupāda: So that is natural. Even Kṛṣṇa was suppressed. Kṛṣṇa could not be suppressed, but the attempt was there, Kamsa. So these things go on, still we have to work. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: If we work sincerely then we'll come out successful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So there are a few things . . . Prabhupāda: We should not be afraid. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara ( BG 8.7). Kṛṣṇa advised Arjuna that "You fight," not that we shall not fight. We shall fight to the best . . . (indistinct) . . . and this is good, they are feeling the pressure of this movement. Otherwise, why they are going to take step? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they, what they do . . . these parents, what they want to do, they want this to be declared illegal. Now they . . . Prabhupāda: Illegal . . . they can, the children can also, those who are our children they can form an association. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But they cannot control us, our independence. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They should form. How the . . .? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But of course, we want to defeat them . . . Prabhupāda: The parents, the parents cannot control their sons and daughters who is above eighteen. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We want to defeat these people legally, because now it's a very big case and every paper in America is covering it. Every paper. Prabhupāda: That means they're feeling pressure. They're feeling pressure. Now we should take proper steps, that's all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They had a big press conference in which Professor Shukla spoke up . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. He has spoken very nicely. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Rāmeśvara said that he got up and he said: "How can . . . you are insulting our religion, saying we are not . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, better that the Indians should combine and they should bring a case against these people. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And then it will be all right. That "This is, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is genuine, and these people are trying to insult us." Bring a defamation case against these persons. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think the best thing is to mobilize all the Indians in America, because every country . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already suggested, that they should take signature from all Indians that "this is genuine Indian cultural movement, and it a great fortune for Indians. They were bereft of their own culture and now we have got this culture again. The Ratha*-yātrā is going on, we are so much enlivened." In this way they should file petition. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like in England they would not let you do the Ratha*-yātrā, the Indians . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. This is discrimination against sect . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Against minority. Prabhupāda: Yes. Against minority. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And no government in the world wants to do that. Prabhupāda: It is against American constitution. So they should file immediately a case. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And America is very sensitive to . . . Prabhupāda: So you note down. You are simply hearing. Note down and inform them. Yes. Ah, it is being recorded, that's all right. So give them this direction. Combine the Indian community. In Toronto and in . . . there are many thousands of Indians, New York, Canada, London. These are very important places. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we can do that. *Prabhupāda: Yes, many thousands and thousands of important Indians, very rich men there are. In London there are very rich Indians. They can form immediately a solid association. They should present that, "This Kṛṣṇa is our God. In every Indian home we observe Kṛṣṇa Janmāṣṭamī." Even though one does not follow Kṛṣṇa cult, still if he is Hindu he follows the Janmāṣṭamī. Inevitably, everywhere. So this Kṛṣṇa cult is genuine, Vedic, based on Bhagavad*-gītā , which was spoken long, long years ago before any religion . . . any religious literature in the world. The Buddha literature or the Christian literature and Jewish literature, they cannot be counted more than two thousand years. A little more than that. But this Kṛṣṇa cult is coming, it is coming from, I have already explained in the Introduction, it is coming from four hundred millions of years ago. But even from historically, it is five thousand years—beyond all religious literature in the world. We have to present this case in the court. And let it be discussed thorough . . . yes, and see our books, compare any religious books with our these books. Present all the opinions of big, big professors how traditional Indian culture is there. You have to fight, organize. Give them hint, this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: How they can defeat us? We have got so solid ground. How they can defeat, these rascals? We consider them simply rascals and fools. And we call them rascals and fools. What do they know of religion? What do they know of God? They know slaughterhouse and killing and illicit sex, and killing the fetus. That's all. What do they know? They are not even civilized. We have come to make them civilized. They should understand. They are not civilized. They do not how to eat even. The first principle of life is eating. They do not know how to eat. We are teaching them how to eat. They simply challenge, like that. When men are uncivilized, they do not how to grow food, they kill animals in the jungle and eat. When they are civilized, they know how to grow food now, and the nice food grains, fruit, flowers, now why should say, "You eat the meat"? The meat*-eating is meant for the most uncivilized persons. That means they do not know even how to eat. They do not know how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex. Nothing. They're having sex like cats and dogs. No marriage—girl's friend, boy's friend, and then illegitimate . . . so many things. They should be exposed. *And there is no harm exposing, in truth. Simply by manufacturing, constructing a big, high skyscraper building, does it mean he is civilized? It is passionate work. They can take credit of a good mistrī, just like so many mistrīs, they construct. I cannot do. Does it mean I am less than him? I could not construct this temple. I have to call some low class, a builder and company, they constructed. Does it meant he is higher in intelligence than me? They are giving credit, "Oh, now they have constructed skyscraper building. They have constructed motorcar, horseless carriage." They are taking credit on this. But this is not civilization. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has given the formula of civilization, three words: mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu . Where is that civilization, to consider every woman as mother? Except one's own married wife, all women, mother. Where is that civilization? That should be; *otherwise there cannot be social regulation. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu para dravyeṣu loṣṭravat : others' property is just like garbage in the street. Nobody touches the garbage. That is civilization. So Mr. Pillai . . . (break) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . got to do. He wants members of parliament to give . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. That we have already suggested. Immediately. Every member of . . . if Mr . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Krishna Modi. Prabhupāda: . . . Brahmānanda . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Reddy. Prabhupāda: . . . he suggested that this movement should be spread all over the world. Let him write. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He won't give it in writing. Prabhupāda: No. That is his insincerity. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Frankly, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no member of parliament will give it either. I know it, because even when Tejiyas was applying for his citizenship, Krishna Modi would not even give a letter of recommendation because he said this is a Congress Party policy. Prabhupāda: Then what can be done? Everything is nasty. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So this is what we'll do. We'll be starting a . . . Prabhupāda: You can give the names. There are so many members. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We are starting a petition here also. Prabhupāda: Not only petition. You can give the . . . ask what is this . . . (indistinct) . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And also . . . Prabhupāda: If there is . . . now Brahmānanda has at least given this order that they should be given two . . . that they be allowed to stay two years. That letter is there. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I have that letter. That letter says they have come to study Vedic literature. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That letter is there. Also we have a lot of other letters from great . . . Prabhupāda: The Indians should send a petition to the government, that "We want this movement here. We are separated from our culture. A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami has brought this . . ." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They say mobilizing the Indians in America . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . and that's most important thing because . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a most important thing, that you cannot discriminate minority communities. That is against American constitution. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, when this . . . when we had a similar situation in Germany, what we wanted to do is have all our centers in important cities in foreign countries all over the world make a letter and a delegation to visit the United States Embassy in all these places. This will have an effect, because if it's brought, if it comes in this way, international reaction . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, arrange like this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We're going to send . . . Rāmeśvara suggested we send a big petition of telegrams to the American Consulate. Because then American Consulate will transmit these telegrams to the State Department in Washington. We said that if our . . . we would pay for it, but our Life Members will all sign if we send a telegram to the American . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm, Dr. Shaligram taken a leading part? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? Hari-śauri: Dr. Shaligram Shukla. Prabhupāda: Shaligram Shukla. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In America? Yes. Prabhupāda: He is a learned scholar, and he is influential man in educational circles. There are many Indians you'll find, they are . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we can mobilize all the Indians. That's the best process. Prabhupāda: Yes, Indian opinion. I have already given suggestion to. The Indians should come forward. And from here also, similar, if the member . . . (indistinct) . . . know. Respectable Indian businessmen, they should say that, "This Kṛṣṇa cult is very, very old, genuine, and we are so enlightened that Swami Bhaktivedanta has taken this movement to the foreign countries. We are so proud," like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We want to do that. Prabhupāda: And that is a fact. Everyone is feeling proud. Take all signature of the gosvāmīs here, influential, that "This is genuine." Prove there, that it is genuine movement. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And we have letters from Swami Premananda and all the . . . (indistinct) . . . and all these letters from Bombay. I'm shipping all these to Rāmeśvara. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone should join. Now people are taking this cultural movement so seriously, and if our Indian leaders sleep, that is not good. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, I have . . . one boy in Delhi went to the British Embassy High Commission and bought a British paper, and even in the British paper the American court case was covered. Headline was "Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." I have the paper. Even in the British paper it had a prominent display. Normally you would expect . . . Haṁsadūta: Probably be in German papers too . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. In fact you would probably expect that . . . Prabhupāda: British paper. What does it say? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They were covering this court case. They had a nice prominent . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. They have taken it. Now, they are after intelligent person. They are . . . that has been expressed by this gentleman that, "It is going like epidemic." They must expect. That is their feeling, that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading so fast, like epidemic, we must take some step." That is already, they have expressed their feeling. And you said that in Australia, there one man said . . . Hari-śauri: Yes, psychiatrist. Prabhupāda: . . . that if the people take to this movement, then where you stand? He has also expressed. What is that? *Hari-śauri: There's a psychiatrist, after the Sydney City Council are trying to have us banned from the city altogether, and they took us to court, and we didn't contest the case and they lost. And then afterwards they . . . it worked out they spent $10,000 and so much manpower to try to get rid of us, and it didn't work. And then one newspaper man went to a psychiatrist and he asked him, "Can you explain why this huge reaction against just a few people singing and dancing in the street?" So he said basically it's because the city*-dwellers feel very threatened by our simple lifestyle. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. So this whole Western civilization is threatened. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are afraid of the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Their whole economic structure will fail. Theoretically, take it for granted that if people give up meat*-eating . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No smoking, no drinking. *Prabhupāda: . . . then whole civilization finished. Even theoretically taken, no smoking, no gambling, no intoxication, no illicit sex, their whole civilization is finished. Lord Zetland said . . . not only that, one Sir Valentine Chirol, I think, Sir Valentine Chirol, British, important, when Gandhi started non*-cooperation. So he remarked that, "If Gandhi's movement, this non-cooperation movement, is one percent successful, then we will have to leave it." And actually that happened. Because they were ruling over India by Indian cooperation. So Gandhi struck to the right point, non-cooperation, and he scented the danger, and he remarked in that time that if one percent Indian people non-cooperate, then we are . . . our British Empire finished. So there are intelligent persons, they are thinking in their own way that, "This movement is so strong against this modern material civilization, if it is allowed to spread then our whole civilization, whole economic structure will be finished." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What they're doing now, these parents are getting . . . contacting devotees who have blooped, and they're getting these devotees to make statements against us. *Prabhupāda: Just see. They are living peacefully in a villa in Paris so happily that, ah . . . some . . . one gentleman came to see me, "Swamiji, you are preaching against meat*-eating. This cannot be done in this country, then we will starve." I said: "No, you will never starve. You take this formula." (laughs) So they are thinking like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And the most dangerous point is that young men are taking part. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The future of the country. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That means it will continue. Young men, they take anything very seriously. So this movement is threatening the—what is called?—foundation of material civilization in the Western countries. That's a fact. The foundation is threatened. Their whole foundation is this: meat*-eating, illicit sex, gambling and intoxication. They have no other formula. Lord Zetland, when he was asking one of my Godbrothers that, "Can you make me Brahmin ?" So "Yes, why not? You follow." He said: "It is impossible for us. It is impossible for us. And we are no one." That's a fact. If some percentage of the population, European and American population, take it seriously, then it will be dangerous for their government, their economic situation, that's a fact. That, our Sudāmā Vipra is saying that, theatrical . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sudāmā Swami is in New York. Hari-śauri: Sudāmā Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Hah! And whole situation is threatened, Caitanya Mahāprabhu movement. Have you seen that? Hari-śauri: That play. Prabhupāda: Play? Hari-śauri: Kali. Age of Kali. Prabhupāda: Yes. The purport of the play is that this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is threatening to all the associates of pāpa . (break) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He, Rāmeśvara told me last night, is completely against these so*-called religious movements like our, and he has written personal letters to the parents of all the people who have joined, all those who would write to him, that these types of movements should be stopped. Prabhupāda: The young men should form another party, all the American young men. Haṁsadūta: Viṣṇu party. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Viṣṇu party. Yes. Now they should take in politics. Haṁsadūta: You wrote in your Eighth Canto, there are always two parties: the Viṣṇu party and the demons' party. Prabhupāda: Yes. If they're forming demons' party, let them . . . Haṁsadūta: Form a Viṣṇu party. Prabhupāda: That, ah, the fight between the Viṣṇu party and the demon party is always going on. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well they could never stop it, I mean. They could just make some difficulty, that's all. *Prabhupāda: No. It is in the hands of the young men. It is not possible for them to stop it. If it had been a sentiment of some retired, just like other thing, that Vivekananda's, all these old fools and rascals, they assemble and meditate. It is not that. They are active. It is not so*-called meditation, and snoring, (makes snoring sound) meditating. It is not that. I have seen, all these rascals go, yogīs , they prescribe meditation, and meditation means sleeping and snoring, that's all. It is not that movement. We are sending, inducing, "Come, sell books." It is no question of meditation. Cheating himself and cheating others. What he will meditate? And he requires so many primary rules and regulations before meditating, not that . . . in the Bhagavad-gītā , for meditation it is clearly stated one should not close the eyes. As soon as you close the eyes and meditate, you will sleep. Immediately. It is . . . they should be half closed, and concentrate your eyesight on the top of the nose. That is meditation. Not that closing and snoring and "huh." Anyway, these rascals, they are going on. Who cares for the genuine thing? Nobody cares. Dharma . . . (indistinct) . . . that "I am your guru , I have followers," dharma principle, but he does not know anything. This is going on. Neither the rascal guru knows, neither his disciple knows. This is the position. Everywhere this is going on. All bluff. This very word used, a dharma . . . (indistinct) . . . get a plaque, that "I am . . . (indistinct) . . ." That's all. And hang it, that's all, and do nothing, that's all. "I do not know nothing, but I have the plaque," that's all. All these gurus , all these chelas are doing that. This Anandamayi, Sai Baba, this, that, so many. What do they know? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is why these leaders are getting confused, so many bogus people are there. Prabhupāda: Yes. That should . . . action should be there. If we come out successful in this, how you say, messing, and that will be very good. It is called that, messing? Hari-śauri: Mixing. Haṁsadūta: Mixing. Prabhupāda: Not mixing. Hari-śauri: Punching together. Prabhupāda: Messing, that what is called? Chaduni? What is called? Devotee: Sifting? Prabhupāda: Sifting, yes. (coughing) It is called not messing also? Hmm. Sifting high grains from the small. Devotees: Yes. Hmm. Hmm. Prabhupāda: The smaller grains, they fall down. Haṁsadūta: Oh, straining. Prabhupāda: Straining, yes. Straining, yes, straining. If the straining process, no, that's nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they can get rid of all the bad ones just like in the rice field. The good ones . . . (indistinct) . . . every newspaper in America is covering us, Rāmeśvara said. Prabhupāda: Good advertisement. I was seeing that. And every page Kṛṣṇa, there is Kṛṣṇa. Every page there is Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, that happened in Germany. I told them, "It is very good that Hare Kṛṣṇa." . . . (indistinct) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughing) We are known as Kṛṣṇas. They call us Kṛṣṇas. You put yourselves "Kṛṣṇians." They are Christians and we are Kṛṣṇians. And actually from Kṛṣṇian, the "Christian" has come. Yes. Kṛṣṇa, ah, Christo, there is a word, Greek word, and Christo is broken spelling of Kṛṣṇa. In India we say one is . . . one name say is Kṛṣṇa, at least in Bengali we say Kṛṣṭa. Kṛṣṭa. This Kṛṣṭa word is from Kṛṣṇa. And from Kṛṣṭa, Christ has come. This is original root, Kṛṣṇa. So we have to fight. Here is a chance for fighting, so why they're afraid? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we just have to work hard on getting everything coordinated. *Prabhupāda: You have to fight, keeping our principles strictly. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). We should not be afraid to fight. And it is . . . there are Indians . . . it is not the Indians cooperating. Now Indians and Americans should join for fighting on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be successful. How they can say it is not genuine movement? Other so*-called yogīs , svāmīs , they may be rascal, but this is not the rascaldom. It is . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are saying . . . they are saying we are not Hindus. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are saying this is not Hinduism. Prabhupāda: Hindus . . . we are Kṛṣṇian. It they, if . . . Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇans. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, in the dictionary it is said that Hindu God, but we are claiming, that Kṛṣṇian, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means "Godder than the Hindus." When you say we are not Hindu, that we are not restricted with the Hindi community. That is the meaning. Because Kṛṣṇa says, "I am for everyone." So why should we be restricted to the Hindi community? Kṛṣṇa says sarva yoniṣu, "In all forms of life, I am the seed giving father." Why He should be simply Hindu? This point should be stressed. Sarva yoni means eighty*-four million . . . eighty, eighty, 8,400,000s, all forms. Kṛṣṇa is for all of them. We therefore, why Kṛṣṇa should be restricted to the Hindu community? Hindus are included, but Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to Hindus. Kṛṣṇa's picture, that Bāla Gopāla, He's embracing the calves. Kṛṣṇa does not embrace only the gopīs, He's embracing the calves also. That is Kṛṣṇa. He's equal to everyone. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonayaḥ , so many low-grade forms of life, they're also His . . . devotees are part and parcel. Mamaivāṁśo jī . . . (BG 15.7). Quote this: Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to the Hindu. We say, "We are not Hindu," means we are not . . . we embrace everyone. We are not restricted to the Hindus. The so-called Christians, so-called Muhammadans, they . . . we embrace everyone. *And actually we are doing that. Why should we simply be compact within the limitation of Hindus? That is not our purpose. Then we would not have come to Western countries. We actually spreading universal brotherhood. Kṛṣṇa is the father and everyone our brother. We are claiming all our fallen brothers to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu: pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126). This is our movement. Why you should be restricted to the India, and amongst the Hindus? Our Gods, They asked that "Go, go," bhārata bhūmite : you have taken birth in India, that's all right, make your life successful and go abroad, para upakāra. Janma sārthaka kori koro para-upakāra . This is our mission. We have come to you to make you civilized. This is our mission. And the best men of your country they are recommending. All the learned circle, they are coming. How can you defy us? If you have got brain . . . you are trying to brainwash. Actually you have no brain to . . . (indistinct) . . . how important it is, this movement. You are trying to brainwash. We are not brainwashing. We are giving you good brain. That is our mission, that you are so dull-headed we have come to give you good brain. Su-medhasaḥ . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). We have come to make you intelligent. Receive us well, for your benefit. Tell them like that. Bring one court case, and I shall sit . . . go and sleep there, and expose them, item by item. I know my case is strong. Hari-śauri: It's the strongest. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Yes. I will speak. If you cannot speak, I shall go and speak. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are a few Indians, I was just thinking, in America who are right at the top of the American scientific research. There is one Dr. Khorana, he won the Nobel Prize, and there are a few others who are right at the top of the . . . Prabhupāda: Where he is? Where he is? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All in America. They're at the top of the US space program. I think we should also approach these people who are . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Punjabis. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He won the Nobel Prize, you know. But I just remembered that there are few other Indians who are at the top of the US space program, so if we approach them . . . Prabhupāda: Now our this Svarūpa Dāmodara and others, they can also come. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should approach all these people and get them to take part in the petition. *Prabhupāda: That Bhavan's Journal, he did not dare to publish my statement. Everyone is combined to kill Kṛṣṇa. Everyone, all over the world. God . . . "There is no God," the scientists, these philosophers, the politicians—everyone. This is the only movement talking of God. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādī . Everywhere, impersonalists and zero: "There is no God." The zero- vādīs , they are little frank, but these rascals, nirviśeṣavādīs , "God has no head, no tail," they are dangerous. Zero- vādīs , they call Him zero, that's all right. That is . . . we can understand, they admit. But these rascals, zero . . . nirviśeṣavādīs, "Yes, there is God, but He has no head, He has no tail, He has no hand, He has no leg." Then what He has? They are greatest cheater, more dangerous than the śūnyavādīs. That is the version of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Vedinām mayima bhogda hoila nāstik , vedāśraya nāstikavāda bhogda ki hodi . These Buddhists, they do not care for the Vedic injunction, we can understand. But these Śankarites, they take shelter of the Vedas and they say: "There is no form of God." And that is being followed, the so*-called Hindus. All the invitees in that meeting, Bajaj meeting, they are all nirviśeṣvādī . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Impersonalists. Prabhupāda: All impersonal. Jagadīśa: That's why there may be a problem in getting Indian people to support our movement. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: If there is any trouble in getting Indians . . . *Prabhupāda: No, we don't care for Indians and Europeans. We care for Kṛṣṇa, that's all. I didn't care for anyone. I simply care for Kṛṣṇa, that's all. And my Guru Mahārāja, that's all. I went to your country not supported by Indians and Europeans. I went on the order of my Guru Mahārāja and under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa's protection, that's all. That is wanted. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). We want two favors: one from guru , one from Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want anyone's favor. So you have to fight. You cannot fight immaterialists. Kṛṣṇa never said, "Arjuna, oh, you are My devotee, you sit down and sleep, I shall take care of . . ." He never said that. (laughs) So if you take that position, "We are devotees, nonviolent, and let us sleep," that is not . . . fight, with all the resources that we have got. That is wanted. That you cannot stop. (loud voices in background) They are coming, going, how you can stop? People, public, they are coming, going here. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They all want to come and have a look at the guesthouse. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. So prepare for fight. Don't be afraid. Arjuna, they were five brothers, and the other party, one hundred brothers. Therefore Dhṛtarāṣṭra was confident, that "What are these five brothers without any help? We have ruined them. They were in the forest for thirteen years, lost all connection, no kingdom. I have got government in hand, and my sons are . . . hundred sons, and we are well equipped. How . . .?" Therefore the . . . bring that Bhagavad*-gītā , dṛṣṭvā tu pāṇḍavāṇīkam (BG 1.2). Jagadīśa: Dṛṣṭvā tu pāṇḍavāṇīkaṁ vyūḍhaṁ duryodhanas tadā . Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda: If someone wants to come, let him come. Akṣayānanda: Ācāryam . . . Prabhupāda: Why you have refused him? Let him come. Akṣayānanda: Ācāryam upasaṅgamya rājā vacanam abravīt (BG 1.2). Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the translation? Akṣayānanda: "Sañjaya said, 'O King, after looking over the army gathered by the sons of Pāṇḍu, King Duryodhana went to his teacher and began to speak the following words.' " Prabhupāda: Aiye, aiye. (Please come, please come.) (guests arrive) (break) Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is to preach. So you join us. Why should you be limited within Vṛndāvana? The people are taking this, and there is . . . now they are feeling the strength. The whole world is now combining against this movement. That means they are feeling the strength. Certainly it is not credit. Indian man: Certainly. *Prabhupāda: Don't say "certainly." You must come forward to fight. If you simply sit down in Vṛndāvana, then Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is not being carried. He says, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya*-khaṇḍa 4.126), that is His mission. So this attempt has been made in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, so why other parties, they should sit down and simply . . .? I am a teeny person, single-handed we shall fight. Why you should see the fun and do not fight? That I am asking you. I shall fight, and you shall see the fun. Indian man: No, no. Prabhupāda: What is this? Now, you appear to be educated gentlemen, you combine, all the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava gosvāmīs , and come with me to fight, because there is a world fight now. They are threatened. Their whole civilization is threatened by this movement. That is the position now. Whole Europe and America, they are combining. They are intelligent person, they see that this movement is spreading like epidemic. They have admitted, some of their party, "If this movement is allowed to advance, then some day they will take our government." They have expressed that feeling. And now they are preparing to fight out. These . . . all these fathers of these young men, they are combining together to charge me that I am kidnapping their boys. So it is a serious situation. You should not see simply the fun and claim to belong to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Now you should come out to fight. Am I wrong or right? Indian man: You are right. *Prabhupāda: Then do that. Hold a meeting among the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas here, and I will explain the position. Now we should combine together and fight. As soon as you introduce something strong, there will be fight. There will be fight. Even Kṛṣṇa had to see the fight, Kurukṣetra. Dharmakṣetre kurukṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). The fight must be there, yuyutsavaḥ . So if you belong to Caitanya Mahāprabhu's party, then you should come out to fight. Whatever done is done, and it is done single*-handed. Nobody has helped me, even not my Godbrothers. These American boys, they have helped me. They understood the philosophy and they helped me. Rather, they are criticizing that I am making these American boys sannyāsī and giving them sacred thread. They are criticizing. What is your opinion? Indian man: I don't think that's a . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They criticize me. They do not recognize this temple as a Vaiṣṇava temple. They say angrej temple. (laughter) Indian man: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . there will be whole integration towards Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jīvera 'svarūpa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Why they criticize? We are trying that. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Why the pāpa-yonis should be neglected? So this thing have been done single-handed, now you should come forward, all, combine together. Ye aap log acchi tarah se sochiye aur combined hoiye, aaiye hamare saath me. (You people think nicely and combine together, come along with me.) There is a great fight. We are just planning how to fight. Simply katha vachak hone se kya hoga, pet palan ho sakta hai, isme kuch vishesh kaam nahi hai. (What is the use of just being a preacher? You can earn for your stomach, but there is nothing special in this.) Now when there is fight, it requires real strength. Now their fight is confronting us because they are feeling the strength. Their whole civilization is threatened. We are recommending no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling and no meat-eating. But this is the basic principle of modern civilization. So the foundation is threatened. Theoretically they are taking that "If these four things are stopped, then where is our civilization? Where we stand?" Meat-eating, they have all over the world millions of slaughterhouse. So if these millions of slaughterhouse is stopped, then where they stand? They are threatened like that. *Indian man: Their whole set*-up, their whole economy is being threatened. Prabhupāda: The millions of liquor manufacturers, breweries, millions of gambling houses, so . . . cigarette factories. So theoretically, if this movement is successful, then whole civilization is finished. So they are now looking . . . because these young men have taken seriously, so they are threatened and they are making a strong party to fight with us. They cannot safely say that against this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement they are threatening a charge against my movement or me that I am kidnapping young men. That is their threatening. I am not kidnapping. I am not going to their house to kidnap. They are coming to us. Ye sab position hai. Aaplog sab Vrndavana me gosai log sab hain, humko thoda sa help kijiye. (This is the position. You all in Vṛndāvana, there are Goswamis also there, help me a little.) *The gosvāmīs, they are śrī*-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau . Now prove. They are descendants. Now prove—come forward. Śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau . Simply sitting at home. And in Bengal there is Nityānanda-vaṁśa . What is Nityānanda-vaṁśa ? Nityānanda went forward before Jagāi-Mādhāi and He was hurt. Blood came out. Where is that Nityānanda- vaṁśa ? Fight between Jagāi-Mādhāi and Nityānanda . . . that is Nityānanda-vaṁśa , simply taking advantage of coming from Nityānanda-vaṁśa , "I have become guru . Give me your money," and sit down. "Let me enjoy life with my wife and children." That kind of Nityānanda-vaṁśa will not help. Come forward to fight. With this fighting is now here. (aside) You can show the newspaper clipping. Bahut big argument ho raha hai. (A big argument is going on to fight this.) First of all they thought that so many svāmīs and yogīs come, all rascals, they stay for some time and go away. Even Vivekananda. (laughter) So this is not a bogus movement, it is taking stand. So now they are threatened and they are combining together, especially the Christian . . . ye dekhiye kitna baseless hai accusation. Just see how baseless is their accusation. But in each heading there is "Kṛṣṇa." (break) . . . bring various charges against our . . . Devotee: Mind control, brainwashing. *Prabhupāda: You should go to see Viśvambhara Goswami also. Panch gavya usme cow mutra diya jata hai, to usi ko prominence de raha hai udhar milk hai usko nahi, ye sabse . . . aur sab gavya chod diya, urine ka taste hai ye sab chal raha hai. ye sab bada fight hai aap log aiye, sahyog kijiye. Aaplog jo actual battlefield me jana chahte hain usko hum leke jayenge. Aaplog tayyar hoiye ladai karne ke liye. Aisi baat nahi hai ki hum nahi ja sakte, wo sab hum . . . aaplog jo bheed hai wo sab tayyar hoiye. (In the pancha gavya , cow urine is added, so prominence is being given for that. There is milk from cows, they are not bothered by all this . . . all the other products from cows they have ignored, there is the taste of urine. All this is going on. This is a big fight, you people come and support us. Those of you who want to go to the actual battlefield, we will take you all. You all be prepared to fight. It is not that we cannot go, all that we . . . you as a crowd be prepared.) This is fortunate that you have come in this moment. So I'll give you this inspiration. Now combine together all Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs. Kṛṣṇa cult is for everyone, either Gauḍīya or Rāmānuja or everyone. Now all of you should come forward. That you do. Admitting kijiye, ye sab ho raha hai Krishna conscious movement ko cut down karne ke liye sab combine ho rahe hain. aap kya chahte hain ki hum udhar defeat ho karke vapas laut ke aaye. To aaplog thoda help kijiye. (You admit that all this is going on, they are trying to cut down the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement and they are all combining. What do you want, that we are defeated there and return back? So you people must help.) They are concerned with the Kṛṣṇa cult. Kṛṣṇa cult means all the ācāryas , all the ācāryas , either Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka or anyone, they should combine together. Abhi ghar me baith kar kaam nahi chalega. hamara guru maharaj decide kiya, wo bahut dheet hai kehte hain (Now sitting at home we cannot achieve anything. My Guru Maharaja decided, he is very stubborn, it is said.) Mana! Tumi kiser vaishnav? Pratisthar tare nirjaner ghare tava harinam kebol kaitav. (Mind, what kind of devotee are you? For cheap adoration you are sitting in one solitary room and chanting, is simply cheating.) Do you understand Bengali? (Humare vaishnav hain kahin bahar nahi jate hain aur ghar baithkarke Haridas Thakur ka nakal karte hain. (Our Vaisnavas are there, they don't go out anywhere, and they sit at home and imitate Haridas Thakur.) (aside) Why you are talking? It is not very important. It is for him. It is a very bad habit. So we should be very alert in this point. All the Vaiṣṇavas of different sampradāyas , especially Gauḍīya sampradāya , you should come forward to fight this. They are gathering their strength. We should gather our strength. Fight. Kṛṣṇa never said that "Don't fight." Never said, Arjuna that, "You are My devotee, you don't fight. You are very good gentleman, nonviolent, and I shall do everything for you." Never said that. Kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samu . . . (BG 2.2) Viṣame samupasthitam . "Now there is a great dangerous fight, why you are saying like a nonsense," anārya*-juṣṭam , "like non-Aryan?" To ye fight mauzood hai dekhiye, have prasadam. to aaplog sab aiye, hum to akele hain. (So this fight is present, have prasadam . So you people come together, I am all alone.) This fight is another good news, that they are feeling the strength. Otherwise they would not have prepared to fight. Formerly they were thinking that so many svāmīs and yogīs come, come and go. But now they are feeling the strength, they charging that their young men are being kidnapped. It is strong party. And these boys, they have taken to Vaiṣṇava principles, their parents have tried to take them back and induce them to eat meat and according . . . they deny. This is also tried. I have got many disciples, they are coming out very rich family, rich father. So one of the fathers called his son that "I am old man. The business is dwindling. You come and take . . ." So I told him that, "You go. Why not take your father's business and use it for Kṛṣṇa?" So he went, on my order. The father wanted him to eat meat. So he denied, that "I cannot do that. I can help in your business, but I cannot accept your way of life. That is not possible." Then the father saw, "Then he is lost, useless. If he's not adopting our life . . ." So there, that one father; *now the all fathers have combined, that "Our children are now lost. They do not come home, what to speak of adopting again our way of life." They cannot accept the way of life, meat*-eating and . . . that is not possible. That they're finding dangerous. And other movement they join and they come back. They remain what they are. Simply they say that, "I belong to this grouping." But our is different. Not only he belongs to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, but a different type of life. (reads something) Hmm. Give it. They have taken . . . (indistinct) . . . there are many, many groups like that. Hari-śauri: This is New York. Prabhupāda: Chanting in the street. Isko kuch upay kijiye. (Find some solution for this.) What do you want to do? Propose. Hold a meeting of all the Gosvāmīs. You take the leading part. Go to Viśvanātha Goswami. If you like, he can go with you to see others, "This is the position. You come and join." What do they say? Indian man: I . . . (indistinct) . . . contacted them, call a meeting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately. Indian man: How long you are staying here? Prabhupāda: I will stay if you hold immediately meeting in this temple. We have got enough space here. First of all you see some leading gosvāmī , and then you chalk out how to fight. All the sampra . . . now it is question of Kṛṣṇa cult, it is not only Gauḍīya. So take gosvāmīs , some of you, and meet all the leaders and hold a meeting, immediately arrange. And explain the whole situation. Let us combine. And those who are educated, they should go. We shall arrange for their all expenditure. It doesn't matter. Fight. "This is a genuine cult. If you discriminate, that is discrimination against religion, cult. We are accepting everyone, but it is a genuine cult. You also Christian, you accept anyone; why you say it is not genuine?" That we have to prove. There the Hindus and Indians who are there, they will also join. So immediately hold a meeting. It is very serious situation. Aap leading part lijiye. Aur jo goswami hain, aur sab jo jo hain sab combine hoke chaliye sab apko hum leke jayenge. (You take the leading part. And the Goswamis and others, who are all combined and come with us, we shall take all of you.) This is genuine movement. Why the American government should be discriminating against a genuine religious sect, Kṛṣṇa? Make this company. (aside) Prasāda , give him prasāda . Very seriously deliberate. And you go with him. We have got any car? Hari-śauri: Not right now. Not at the present moment. (aside) Haṁsadūta's van here? Prabhupāda: Where our car has gone? Akṣayānanda: Bareilly. They have program in Bareilly. Prabhupāda: When? Akṣayānanda: Two days ago they went. Prabhupāda: No, when the program is? Akṣayānanda: Now it's going on. Prabhupāda: Going on. Akṣayānanda: Mmm. Prabhupāda: When they will come back? Akṣayānanda: About one week, one and a half weeks. Prabhupāda: So we can ask them to come back. The car will be required both here and there. Akṣayānanda: Okay. That's easy enough. I can do it. Prabhupāda: Mmm. Or any other car available? Hari-śauri: (indistinct) . . . Krishna Chand. Akṣayānanda: No, he doesn't have one. Prabhupāda: No, Viśvan . . . there is always car. Hari-śauri: We have the motorcycle. Akṣayānanda: We can arrange elsewhere. It's okay. Prabhupāda: Hah. So(to sab se miliye. (meet everyone.) He will go with you, immediately. Meeting arrange kijiye. (Arrange the meeting.) Thank you very much. (pause) Prabhupāda: Combine together in Vṛndāvana. Fight . . . without fight where is life? If there is no fighting, then what is that life? That is dead stone. Fight must be there. Kṛṣṇa's whole life is fighting from the very birth. His father carried Him to Gokula where He is still living, and He fell down from the Yamunā and . . . just born, fighting began. Just born. And at Yaśodāmayī's house, Nanda Mahārāja's house, so many demons daily coming—Śakaṭāsura, Aghāsura, Bakāsura, Pūtanā, so on, so on, so on; ultimately Kaṁsa, when He was young boy. Vṛndāvana, so many asuras came. You have seen the pictures? Kṛṣṇa is fighting with the horse demon, with the bull . . . (indistinct) . . . fighting. If Kṛṣṇa is fighting, why not Kṛṣṇa consciousness the same thing? You cannot expect peaceful life. No, there must be fighting, then think, "That is Kṛṣṇa's presence, His fight." So this fighting means they're feeling the presence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Otherwise why they're arranging fight? Had it been an insignificant thing, there was no question of fighting. Mosha marte kaman daga. (Bringing a cannon to kill a mosquito.) to The gun, Howitzer gun? What is that? German, some gun they will go from this part of . . . this side of English Channel to other. Calais, the other side Calais? Devotees: Calais. Hari-śauri: Calais in France. Prabhupāda: Calais in France. So from France to other side English Channel, London, that's all right. Devotee: Artillery guns? Prabhupāda: Yes, they . . . Hitler invented. The gun will be fired from this side. Hari-śauri: Big, huge gun. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this gun is required not for killing a mosquito. (laughter) Big enemy. So they are preparing this big gun, and not the mosquito and this Mahesh Yogi and this yogī . You see? They are mosquitoes. For them they don't require any gun. So for big enemy, big gun, you see. They are preparing big gun, that means Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is big enemy. It is not mosquito. So you remain a big enemy, you don't become a mosquito. That is wanted. Immediately arrange this meeting here. Call all the Vaiṣṇavas, all. Apnader je party ache tader kichu bolun, Nimbarka sampradaya ke . . . nimbarka sampradaya tader gaudiyar sampradayer opor ekta dwesh ache. Janen ota? Khobor rakhen na? Amra je Caitanya Mahaprabhuke bhagavan boli ora ota swikar kore na. (Whatever parties you have, tell them something. To the Nimbarka sampradāya . . . Nimbarka sampradāya has envy on Gaudiya sampradaya . Do you know? You are not updated? They can’t accept that we call Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the Supreme Lord.) Indian man: Ekbar shunechi santa das babaji korten, r bakito keu na. (I heard once that Santa das babaji does, but not others.) Prabhupāda: Na sobai kore. Ora oi nie gaudiya vaisnavder criticize kore. Amrau kori je manushke bhagavan bolar jonno, eta kono aschorjer bishoy na. Jemon amra Ramkrishnake criticize kori je ekta manushke ekta bhagavan koye dilo. Sei hisebe ora Caitanya Mahaprabhukeu mone kore manush. Manushke bhagavan eta kono sampraday swikar korbena. Ora bole Caitanya Mahaprabhu manush . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, all of them. They criticize the Gaudiya Vaisnavas in this regard. We also criticize, this is not something strange. We do it because people consider the common man as the Supreme Lord. For example we criticize Ramakrishna, that they made a human being as the Supreme Lord. So they also think of Caitanya Mahāprabhu as a human being. No sampradāya will accept a human being as God. They say Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a human being . . . (indistinct) . . .) so far Kṛṣṇa is concerned, everyone. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- November 3, 1976, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: . . . brainwash. Hari-śauri: But how can they take it that what we're doing is a bad thing? If we're training people how to avoid intoxication, how to avoid illicit sex, abortion, contraception . . . Prabhupāda: They say: "Why you should avoid? This is life. Why you are brainwashing?" One boy was there in the beginning . . . what was his name? Ranchor, his name, I gave him. So his father argued, "Why you are avoiding illicit sex? This is life! Why you are afraid? I'll give you car. I'll give you girls. You enjoy. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy?" His father was arguing. I think everyone's father argues like that. Lord Ronaldsay, he said: "Why you are prohibiting this thing? This is our life. It is impossible." Hari-śauri: The thing is in society still, even now, there are people who abstain from it. There are vegetarians or . . . Prabhupāda: There may be very few, one or two. That is insignificant. One million, two person, he is. At least especially in your country. Hari-śauri: The thing is that they don't claim that they are brainwashed. So we're a society where we're doing all these things, combinedly. Prabhupāda: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If the majority are fools and rascal, if you say something sane, then they'll ask . . . the man, the sane man, he is insane. He's crazy. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Then how to fight them? *Prabhupāda: That is the position. The only means is that in spite of all opposition you have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will cleanse. Otherwise there is no other way. Argument and logic, they have no brain to understand. It requires this transcendental method, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam ( CC Antya 20.12), by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. You have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and let them . . . give the chance to hear. Then they will be able to catch it, what we are saying. Not directly. It is not possible. Hari-śauri: Then how are we going to fare in this court case? 'Cause in these court cases it's a question of presenting one side against the . . . Prabhupāda: No, philosophy is there. Court case means there is philosophy, there is logic. So for that we have got so many books. We can . . . but general mass of people, chanting. When there is court case we are prepared to defend. We have got . . . you are not fools. We can talk that what is the aim of life. They cannot say anything. The transmigration of the soul, the aim of life which we are discussing in our book, that's fact. How he can deny the transmigration of the soul from one body to another? And if that is accepted, the whole problem is solved. He does not know what kind of life he is going to get. Therefore they do not accept this philosophy. If once accepted, then next question: "What kind of life you are going to get, either to become a tree or a dog or a human being?" What arrangement you have done that you will get next life human being? Then the pious and impious activities comes one after another. The basic principle they are denying, "After this body is finished, everything is finished." Bhāsmi bhūtasya dehasya punar agama . . . "The body will be burned into ashes, and where is life? Who is coming? Who is going?" They do not see the soul. Their medical science cannot find out where is soul. How do they say the . . . the soul means intelligence, they say. Otherwise, do they say the animal has no soul? Why do they say? What is the . . . what is . . . "Man has soul," they say: "The animal has no soul." Jagadīśa: That's what the Christians say. The Christians say. Prabhupāda: So what is the symptom? Hari-śauri: Well, they . . . 'cause he, man, has reason and logic. Prabhupāda: That means reason and logic is soul. That is their idea. That is not soul. Intelligence, when I say: "You have got intelligence," it does not mean you are intelligence. "You have got intelligence," we say like that. We never say: "You are intelligence." So intelligence is not soul. The rascals, they do not know. Mistake. Nobody says: "You are intelligence." They say, "You are intelligent." Hari-śauri: Intelligence is something you possess. Prabhupāda: Yes. (someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So? (break) Hari-śauri: (looking in dictionary) "Brainwashing: clearing the mind of established ideas by persistent suggestion and indoctrination." *Prabhupāda: That is . . . (chuckles) We are doing that. They, they are under the impression, "Work hard, earn money and enjoy life." We say, "No. Don't work hard for sense gratification but work hard for self*-realization." Indoctrine. Hari-śauri: Yep well, any form of education is indoctrination. Prabhupāda: Indoctrinization. Yes. Any kind of education is. Hari-śauri: Whatever you teach someone, you teach according to whatever you see as the correct value. Prabhupāda: Yes. The child goes to the school. His brain is packed up, "I shall play all day." He likes that, to play, but it is indoctrinization that "No, you should read. You must become graduate." Hari-śauri: Yes. And whatever country he's born in, he has to learn the culture of that country; he's indoctrinated. Prabhupāda: Apart from that, education is required. The child wants to play, but we have to educate him that "No, play is not all. You have to be educated." Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Similarly, this animal life—eating, sleeping, mating—this is already there. No. We say: "Not only this, you have to realize God." This kind of brainwash is required. If we do not understand God, then what is the difference between you and dog? He knows how to eat, how to sleep. He doesn't require any high education . . . (indistinct) . . . how to eat. Everyone knows how to eat, how to use sex. Nobody requires any university education. Hari-śauri: Simply ignorance. Prabhupāda: When the animal enjoy sex, they know which part of the body has to be used. Hari-śauri: They don't have to be taught. Prabhupāda: It is not, there is no need of education. He knows it. And these rascals, they are presenting Freud's philosophy, sex. Just see how they are wasting time. *Hari-śauri: They have so many books now on so*-called sex education, so many of them. Prabhupāda: Simply wasting time. There is a story about this. One man was canvassing, hawking. Hawker? Hari-śauri: Yes, hawker. Prabhupāda: So he was, "Here is a book of cow protection," cow protection. He has written one book to take care of the cows. So when old man called him, "What you are selling?" Now, "I am selling this book." "What is that book?" "Maintaining the cow." So, "Why you are selling? First of all you give this book to your mother, because you are no better than cow, so she will learn how to give you protection." That means he wanted to impress upon him that, "Cow protection doesn't require any education. You have written a book? So you are such a rascal, cow intelligence. Better give this book to your mother. She will maintain you. Don't sell it. Everyone knows how to give cow protection." So similarly, this sex literature, there is no need of sex literature. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: Sex literature is there in Sanskrit also. That is how to restrict sex. For what purpose one should indulge in sex, that is called Kāma-śāstra . I have seen this Freud philosophy became so prominent that sometimes in the year . . . 1940s maybe, so one young woman was travelling, and another young man was travelling. So they began to discuss about sex very openly. And both of them unknown. Still, they engaged themselves in discussing the sex literature, without any shame. *Hari-śauri: Pseudo*-intellectuals. Prabhupāda: Huh. *Hari-śauri: Pseudo*-intellectuals. Shameless. Prabhupāda: Yes. Young boy, young girl, they began to discuss on sex openly as scientific. Hari-śauri: What is this scientific? (laughs) Prabhupāda: Scientific means after discussing for some time you propose that, "Let us enjoy sex." That's all. It is common thing in your country—unknown girl, unknown boy, and talk for some time, "Let us go to some restaurant," and then talk more intimately, and then sex. Hari-śauri: That's the whole social system. Prabhupāda: "Would you like to sex?" And who is the young man, young . . . who'll deny it? I know this. During ball dance they embrace one another, another's wife, another's husband, and in ball dance . . . or there are side rooms. Naturally they'll feel sex, and they go to the side room and discuss. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. Hari-śauri: The only reason they go to a dance is to pick up some woman for sex life. That's all. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Most of my friends used to go out specifically to find some woman to have sex. Prabhupāda: This dancing club means this. (long pause) (end) Conversation -- November 4, 1976, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: . . . one hour. Pradyumna: Just after it gets dark. Prabhupāda: Huh? Pradyumna: Just after sun does down it gets a little dark. Prabhupāda: Then at what time it should be happened? You can inquire from other temple. Akśayananda: Last winter we had 6:30. Pradyumna: With the season it changes little. Prabhupāda: So is there any regulation given in the Pañjikā when? Pradyumna: Just . . . only regulation given for timing is that for Deity going to rest at noon. The Deity should take rest at noon, two yāmas after sunrise, and take rest in evening, one yāma after sunset. But it didn't say anything about the other āratis . But at six hours . . . Prabhupāda: The ārati , it is called sandhya ārati. Sandhya ārati means just in the evening. So when evening time is there . . . after sunset it is not evening. What is the time of sunset nowadays? Bring Pañjikā . Akśayananda: Around 5:30, isn't it? Prabhupāda: What is the time of sunset? Hari-śauri: It's about 5:30, approximately. Prabhupāda: 5:30, then one hour after. Then 6:30 is all right. 6:30 is all right. Akśayananda: Okay. So in that case, when would you like to come and visit? Prabhupāda: No, 6:30. Akśayananda: Now you're coming six till seven. Hari-śauri: 5:30 to 6:30? Prabhupāda: We shall come . . . 6:30–7:00, ārati will go on. So we can come half an hour before. Hari-śauri: 5:30. Prabhupāda: 5:30. 5:30. Instead of coming there at six, I come there 5:30. And one hour, then 6:30 begins. Make that like that. That will be very nice. So why you were not present in the meeting? Pradyumna: I was there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . That's all right. I think you can understand Hindi? No. Pradyumna: I am trying to. I can understand little bit. I am practicing. Prabhupāda: You should learn Hindi, Bengali. You are learning? Pradyumna: He talks . . . when he talks, he talks a little fast, when he reads the anuvāda . Prabhupāda: Who? Pradyumna: Ah, Prem Yogi. Prabhupāda: Ah, he is . . . but I am studying. He is translating nice. He is learned. Hari-śauri: We wanted to ask you about . . . he was training up Prem Yogi to do the editing, but there's no one to do the transcribing. We're probably going to . . . we'll have to send the tapes . . . Prabhupāda: Transcribing? No, why? Pradyumna: Why can't Pālikā do? Hari-śauri: She can do it? I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, she can do. Hari-śauri: Pālikā can do it? That will be all right, then. Prabhupāda: You also learn. Hari-śauri: Typing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: In case there is none, you should do. Pradyumna: Pālikā's done it before. Prabhupāda: No, Pālikā can do. I know that. Akśayananda: She is expert. *Prabhupāda: She is expert in typing. Amongst the women, she is expert typist. She is expert in so many things. Only defect is that she is woman. (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa says, striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyaḥ : "Never mind woman. If she is devotee, she also comes to Me." Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā , "no one barred." Especially naming striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśya te 'pi yānti parām ( BG 9.32). Everyone is to be . . . Kṛṣṇa is so kind. There is no restriction. Everyone is open to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya*-nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). This is open to all living entities. There is no restriction. And so long this body is there, material, there is distinction between this and that. Otherwise, when you come to the platform of spiritual understanding, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18), then there is no restriction. Higher, lower, this, that, so many. Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). So any newspaper propaganda against us? No. One complaint is standing, that with our Life Members and others, subscriber, they always complain they are not getting paper, they are not getting book. That is the general complaint. Akśayananda: They send regularly. We are sending. But many times the mail is stolen, magazines, Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Akśayananda: Yes, it is very difficult. Prabhupāda: Because there are so many nice picture. I have seen. When I was printing my books in a Delhi press, so one peon was coming there to work part time as compositor. So his mailbag he will put somewhere in the press, and he will being composing. And all other compositors, they'll check the mail bag, and if something is attractive, they will take. I have seen it. Our magazine is so . . . Akśayananda: It's so beautiful. Prabhupāda: . . . full of pictures, so naturally, as soon as they . . . the pictorial and . . . they take it. Akśayananda: Yes, that's the trouble. So we have a system in some towns. We find one member who is very much liking us, and we send all the magazines to him, and he goes, sends his . . . given by hand, to all the other members in that city. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Akśayananda: We are doing that in some cities, but we don't have in all cities such a system. That system works. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? Some are living ten miles from him. It is not possible. No, that is happening in India, not in other countries. In your country the peons are very responsible. Akśayananda: Yes, the post office is also very good. *Prabhupāda: Here they never satisfied. This is the modern mentality. Nobody is satisfied with his income. He wants more money. And for that purpose he can do anything rascal. I have seen it. This peon puts his bag without any responsibility. Letters are strewn, and maybe some letters stolen. Who can say? And he came to earn some money. For some time he'll compose and get some labor. And in Calcutta I have seen all the office peons, they are sleeping in Dalhousie Square, the peon book as the pillow, for hours together. And when they, after distributing, when they return to the office it is going to be closed. And if they are asked explanation, "Why you are so late?" "Oh, he was not there. I had to wait three hours," and so on, so on, so on. Everyone is dishonest. Nobody is working honestly, especially in India, because poverty*-stricken. If they can sleep two hours he thinks that he has made some profit. Formerly people were God conscious. They did not like to cheat that, "God will be displeased." Now they don't believe in God, so they can do anything. Akśayananda: Now that we've become devotee . . . Prabhupāda: "Everyone is God." Akśayananda: . . . if we sleep for two hours we think we have wasted two hours. *Prabhupāda: That should be. Sleeping is waste of time. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau : we have to conquer over eating and sleeping and mating. Hari-śauri: Just the opposite to the karmīs . They want to increase their eating. *Prabhupāda: Formerly, when I was in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple, there was a khol manufacturer here. Is he here still? Akśayananda: Khol manufacturer? Prabhupāda: He supplied me khol very nice, very big. This khol was taken to Germany or . . . Akśayananda: What was his name? Prabhupāda: I forgot. Akśayananda: There is one man here. Prabhupāda: In here? Akśayananda: One man is here, but I don't know if it's the same one. Prabhupāda: Can you call him? Akśayananda: Yes. I think he's just a repairman though. Prabhupāda: Whatever he may be. Yes. We must have very good khol . You have no good khol . Akśayananda: I had one under repair. I had two under repair with him. But he takes a long time. I am waiting now for repair. Prabhupāda: So you can call him. Akśayananda: Okay. You'd like to meet him? Prabhupāda: Yes. If the same man, then I can ask him to prepare some khol . Akśayananda: Ours get damaged. Hari-śauri: The shells or . . .? Akśayananda: They break them so easily. They cannot control them. The shell, the skin, anything, always break. Hari-śauri: You should make some padded covers for them. See they get some padded cover. Prabhupāda: Who is doing that? Everyone is irresponsible. Akśayananda: Even with that, they break. Hari-śauri: But at least it helps the chances they'll survive. Prabhupāda: The one thing is that they neglect that rings. That ring and the strap, if it is . . . that will never do. As soon as they khol . . . some rope, bās . Hari-śauri: Usually what breaks is that little leather loop. They have a small loop on each end. But that's what usually breaks. If you want to . . . Prabhupāda: No, if you make it nicely with chain. Akśayananda: I have made it even nicely with a cord, with a ring, and the proper straps. But they put it like this and like this, and they bang it the wrong way. This is my problem. I can't stop it, no matter what we do. Hari-śauri: You just bring them out for ārati and then have somebody take them back, and they won't get broken. Haṁsadūta was doing that with his mṛdaṅgas . Akśayananda: I was also doing that. Hari-śauri: The mṛdaṅgas are in there all day long. Any karmī that comes in, they beat the drum and mess around. The little kids go in and they do the same thing. I've seen them. You should take them out of the temple. Let them be there for kīrtana and then take them away and store them in your room. There's no kartālas now, either, because everybody steals them. Prabhupāda: These two rooms can be used for keeping. Akśayananda: Kartālas are locked away every time, and the drums were done . . . that was done until they were broken. Hari-śauri: Or you can just put them in the tourist room. They'll be safe. Or in the pūjārī room. Akśayananda: Yeah, I'll arrange for that. Prabhupāda: Everything depends on organized management. (pause) Prabhupāda: Give some . . . Akśayananda: Shall I put . . . some gentlemen, some bābājīs , are coming now, from Mathura. Prabhupāda: Aiye, aiye. Betiye . Akśayananda: May I help Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Betiye . (end) Conversation -- November 5, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation About Gurukula) *Prabhupāda: The modern education means . . . just see what is the disastrous condition. For 531 posts, three lakhs people have applied. How the unemployment . . . this application means they are all educated. Uneducated, they do not apply for any post. That means educated unemployed. This is India's so*-called education. (aside) Without light it is . . . you can open the door. (break) Jagadīśa: . . . I was finding out yesterday's paper . . . (break) First thing, I wanted to go over the daily schedule. According to the schedule, the boys get up between 3:30 and quarter to four. Prabhupāda: Why so early? Jagadīśa: Why 3:30 and quarter to four? That's what time we all get up. Prabhupāda: We are holding maṅgala-ārati at five. So why 3:30? Jagadīśa: Well, they do japa before maṅgala-ārati . Prabhupāda: No, no. It will be too early for them. They first of all . . . Jagadīśa: They're accustomed to getting up at . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: They've been getting up at that time for years. Prabhupāda: If they are accustomed, that is all right. But otherwise it is not needed, so early. When they go to sleep? Jagadīśa: At 8:15. Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is all right. Then is all right. At least they must have rest six hours, complete. Jagadīśa: Oh, they get more than that. Prabhupāda: Then it is . . . *Jagadīśa: Then they get ready, 02:45 bathed, dressed, by about 4:10. So they chant japa from 4:10 until five o'clock under the supervision of their teacher. Then ārati , tulasī worship. And after tulasī worship they again have japa up until guru*-pūjā , greeting the Deities. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: From the time tulasī worship is over until the time of greeting the Deities. Prabhupāda: How long it is? Jagadīśa: That's an hour and fifteen minutes. Altogether they have japa time amounting to just under two hours. Prabhupāda: And who . . . they will . . . the small boys, they can devote so much time? Jagadīśa: Well, these are not small boys. These are . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, teachers. Jagadīśa: At least ten years, nine, ten years old. Prabhupāda: Still . . . Devotee: Nine years old to fourteen years old. Prabhupāda: They should be engaged in chanting, not sit down and japa. That will not be possible for them. Jagadīśa: The problem is that some of the boys are fourteen, fifteen, or thirteen but they should chant japa , because they are required to chant sixteen rounds a day. Many of them are initia . . . Prabhupāda: Sixteen rounds, it requires, utmost two hours, two and a half hours. Jagadīśa: Well, two hours is on the schedule, two hours and ten minutes. Prabhupāda: Chela bangiya . (laughter) (greeting someone) How are you? That's nice. Jagadīśa: So they have two hours and five minutes of japa . Dhanurdhara: Some boys that are younger, they make a vow to do less, and then they can study. *Jagadīśa: Some of the younger boys chant six or eight rounds instead of sixteen. They chant that much during that time and then they study. Then they attend the temple program, guru*-pūjā and Bhāgavatam class. And then after that, they go upstairs, wash their clothes and clean the āśrama . That takes them about an hour, to wash their clothes and sweep and cleanse the floor, cleanse the shower room, wash their clothes . . . Prabhupāda: Now, when they chant the mantras ? *Jagadīśa: Brahma*-saṁhitā ? Prabhupāda: Or any . . . Jagadīśa: Any mantra. At . . . right now they're chanting from nine until 9:30 in the morning with Yaśodānandana Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Not in the . . . early in the morning? Yaśodānandana: In the early morning I take some of the boys in the Deity room between 5:30 and six, the boys and the Deities. Prabhupāda: Deity means temple. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Deity? Means temple. What do you mean, "The Deity room"? *Yaśodānandana: Within the Deity room, when they are bathing the Deities, we are offering the prayers to the Deities, the Brahma*-saṁhitā and Īśopaniṣad . Prabhupāda: Why? Why? Deity room? Within the Deity room there is no need of chanting. Who told you this? There is no need. Eh? Within the Deity room? You told? Pradyumna: No. Prabhupāda: Then? *Pradyumna: Sometimes you . . . unless you said, for installation or at other times when the Deity is being bathed, to chant Brahma*-saṁhitā prayers. Prabhupāda: No. Within the Deity room there is no business. No business. Jagadīśa: When we hear the chanting, that's where it's coming from in the morning, in the early morning. Prabhupāda: Oh. They can chant outside, yes. The Deity bathing or whatever, dressing, may go on. You can chant not within the Deity room. That you can do outside. Then when their reading, writing begins? Jagadīśa: That begins at 10:15, after prasādam . They take prasādam at 9:30, and then at 10:15 their English class begins. Prabhupāda: Just after taking prasādam ? Jagadīśa: Yes. Fifteen minutes after. Prabhupāda: Hmm. What begins? *Jagadīśa: English class. That goes for one and a half hours. Then there's math class which goes for forty*-five minutes. *Prabhupāda: Not continually. They should be given a recess, ten minutes. Then again come to the class. And a class should not be more than forty*-five minutes. One class should not be continued more than forty-five minutes, then ten minutes recess, then begin another class. Jagadīśa: For the English program it is required, in order for them to have enough time to read and write, then they would require an hour and a half, so they would have two classes. Prabhupāda: In the meantime, one and half? Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You give ten minutes recess. Jagadīśa: And during the recess what should they do? *Prabhupāda: Nothing. They'll be free. Nothing to do. Recess means nothing to do. That is brain, I mean to say, rest. All continually you cannot do that. That is not good. Utmost, forty minutes or forty*-five minutes. Then give them ten minutes' freedom. Then begin another. Not more than forty to forty-five minutes at a time, reading, writing. Jagadīśa: After class, then, by 12:30 they bathe again, second time. Prabhupāda: They take prasādam first and then bathe? Jagadīśa: They bathe . . . they take prasādam at 9:00 in the morning, 9:30. Then they have class. Then after class is finished, then they bathe. Prabhupāda: After class they bathe? Jagadīśa: Around 12:30. Prabhupāda: Not needed. After prasādam they should not take bathing at least for four hours. Jagadīśa: Four hours. Pradyumna: They have a schedule where they have dāl , rice and sabjī and cāpāṭi at 9:30 in the morning. Is that what they have in the afternoon? Prabhupāda: Eh? So when they first take bathing? Jagadīśa: Uh, when they rise, at around four o'clock. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's fine. Then they take the prasādam at what time? Jagadīśa: 9:30. Prabhupāda: 9:30. So . . . Jagadīśa: We can take prasādam earlier. Prabhupāda: No, no, why earlier? Earlier, any breakfast? Jagadīśa: No. Prabhupāda: Why not? They are children. They must have some breakfast. Jagadīśa: They have three meals. One at . . . this is the way the temple program is scheduled. The temple eats at 9:30 in the morning, so the boys also get prasādam at that time because everyone eats the same . . . Prabhupāda: But early in the morning they should have some . . . at least munch sweetmeat, something like that. Bhagatjī: Like chewra . Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagatjī: Like chewra and curds, they can take, for example. After taking bath at one o'clock they should take little prasādam . Prabhupāda: Yes. Early in the morning, just after maṅgala-ārati , they can take something. They must take something. They are taking bathing at what time? Jagadīśa: In the morning? Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: Ten to four. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: Four o'clock. Prabhupāda: Four o'clock. So after maṅgala-ārati , the maṅgala-ārati prasādam should be given them, a little sweet. Yaśodānandana: (to other devotees) We hadn't agreed on that . . . (indistinct) Jagadīśa: Yes, the maṅgala-ārati sweets. Prabhupāda: Maṅgala-ārati sweets, they should be distributed amongst the children, little sweets. Then they can take 9:30 prasādam . Jagadīśa: Full prasādam . Prabhupāda: Yes. Then? Again they are taking bathing at what time? Jagadīśa: The scheduled next bathing is 12:30. Prabhupāda: Then what is the . . . 12:30, then? Jagadīśa: After bathing they take a little prasādam . Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. Then it is all right. Jagadīśa: Then at 1:30 they take some rest. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. How long? Jagadīśa: One hour. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Jagadīśa: Then they have Sanskrit class from 2:30 until four. Prabhupāda: Hmm. 2:30, four, that's all right. Jagadīśa: One and a half hours. So there should be a recess in between. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: That's one and a half hours, so there should be recess in between. Prabhupāda: Ten minutes at least. Jagadīśa: Then at four o'clock the chanting party leaves for the Yamunā procession. Prabhupāda: In process . . . that's nice. Jagadīśa: And they return by six for darśana in the temple room. Prabhupāda: No, let them return by 5:30. Jagadīśa: 5:30. Devotee (2): Can we have the class while we're there? So that we . . . 'cause it takes us . . . (indistinct) Jagadīśa: Well, we can adjust this but . . . because darśana begins at 5:30, they should be there by . . . Prabhupāda: No, darśana begins at five . . . Jagadīśa: 5:30. Prabhupāda: 5:30. Why? Devotee (2): It was at six o'clock in the evening. Originally it was at six o'clock. Prabhupāda: No, no. The darśana opens at five. Jagadīśa: No, when you come into the temple room, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Your darśana . Prabhupāda: No, no, my darśana is different. Public darśana . When the Deity room is opened? Bhagatjī: At five o'clock in the evening. Prabhupāda: That's it. Why do you say six? Jagadīśa: Uh, I meant that when the darśana period for yourself was at six. Prabhupāda: No, it should be 5:30. Jagadīśa: 5:30. Prabhupāda: General darśana is open at five. That's nice. Jagadīśa: So then the boys would return at 5:30 . . . Prabhupāda: I think it may be little earlier, no, half an hour. Bhagatjī: Half an hour it would be, because the ārati is beginning at 6:30 . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagatjī: . . . so the afternoon darśana would be at 4:30. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagatjī: That we had managed last year. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Jagadīśa: So the boys would come for the chanting and recitation of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: What time? Jagadīśa: 5:30 to 6:30. Prabhupāda: No, 5:30 we begin class. In that class they can chant. Jagadīśa: Kīrtana . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Jagadīśa: And then, at 6:30, there will be ārati and they'll stay for ārati . Then, after ārati , they take a little prasādam and then take rest. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That's all right. *Jagadīśa: And as far as everyone's duties are concerned, Rūpa*-vilāsa is the English teacher. He teaches English and math, and, of course, Pradyumna teaches the Sanskrit program. And Dhanurdhara Prabhu has been . . . he works in the āśrama , overseeing the boys . . . Prabhupāda: Taking care. Jagadīśa: Yes. And Yaśodānandana Mahārāja will . . . Prabhupāda: Recitation. Jagadīśa: Recitation. Yaśodānandana: And I also help with getting the boys through japa and kīrtana and getting them more enthusiastic. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Jagadīśa: It's nice to have a sannyāsī involved. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jagadīśa: He can be a good example. Prabhupāda: Very good. Jagadīśa: And Bhagatjī, grandfather. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: For feeding. Feeding. Give them sumptuous food so that they may become healthy, nice food. (laughter) Yes. That is also wanted. Children, they must eat sufficiently. Not overeat. Even overeat, that is not wrong for children. And that will be exercise, by going to Yamunā and coming. That will be bodily exercise. This is nice. Do that. Strictly follow. There is no scarcity of space there. Yes. Vṛndāvana is holy place. And there is no government interference, so increase it. Bring more student from all over the world. Then it will be unique. And you also make scheme to get Indian children from aristocratic family. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga*-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate ( BG 6.41). Those who are born in high-class, rich family or Brahmin family, they are not ordinary. But there is no Brahmin family now but the richer section, they can be induced to send their boys to learn Sanskrit and English and Bhagavad-bhakti . They can do business, and whatever they like, they can do later on. But these things, they should be . . . father, mother should be careful. Iska koi program banao, acha ghar ka ladka sab aye. Unko to khane pine ka koi abhav nahi hai. Wo thoda Bhagavad-bhakti sikh le, thoda Sanskrit sikh le, thoda English sikh le, usko kya . . . (indistinct) . . . hai. (Make such a program that boys from aristocratic backgrounds come to the gurukula . They have no problem with food, shelter and clothing. Let them learn the science of devotional service to the Lord, a little Sanskrit, a little English . . . (indistinct) . . .) Bhagatjī: Bacche kya bahar se ayenge? (Can kids from outside join the gurukula ?) *Prabhupāda: Kahi se bhi aye, idhar to rahega aur idhar khayega. Kahi se bhi aye. Bahar se ayenge . . . (Let them come from anywhere. They will stay here so it doesn't matter where they come from . . .) just attract all good family, children. Jo ki parishram karke, (Those who earn by toiling very hard,) labour . . . working, they will have to live, they cannot. They cannot become a paṇḍita or spiritually advanced men. They have to work. But if the richer section, they get their sons good character, good devotee . . . Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, ko 'tha putreṇa jātena yo na vidyā na bhaktimān : "What is the use of such son who is neither devotee nor learned?" Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam : "What is the use of blind eyes? It is simply troublesome." So if the aristocratic family, they do not give education in spiritual line, they'll become all hippies, loafer, and drinking and wasting father's money. They should be informed. Usko to phokat me paisa milta hai, usko udayega, baith*-baithke sharab piyega aur usko to chahiye . . . (He gets money without any hard work so he will waste it, engage in drinking and require . . .) (break) I think there must be three, four classes. Bhagatjī: Three, four classes afterwards, but at present? Prabhupāda: Ah. Bhagatjī: If students are in great number, then we shall introduce—otherwise . . . Prabhupāda: Classes to be arranged according to the number of student increases. That's all. That shall be . . . Jagadīśa: Now there are two classes. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: There are two classes according to age. Prabhupāda: Kata, according to time and circumstance. Bhagatjī: In my opinion, Prabhupāda, there should be one period for Hindi classes. Prabhupāda: That's very nice. *Bhagatjī: Forty minutes, forty*-five minutes that will be very good for the children. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very good. That is essential. If the Indian students come, they will require some vernacular like that. Bhagatjī: Hindi class there should be. In Vṛndāvana they will . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Do that, Hindi. Bhagatjī: In Māyāpur there should be Bengali class. And Hindi and Bengali, two language are very close. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not any other language. Hindi is essential—must be compulsory, Hindi. That is State language. Jagadīśa: For the Western children also? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Everyone. Bhagatjī: You should find some time, adjust some time for Hindi. Prabhupāda: Hindi, Sanskrit, English compulsory. Bhagatjī: That's all. Then, afterwards we can make other, just elemental mathematics, arithmetic or just that, afterwards, when the regular studies go in the group. Now . . . (indistinct) . . . these three things. By learning Hindi they will . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And the government also will like that, that foreign students . . . Bhagatjī: If they can understand the language and they . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Hindi is essential. It is not difficult, the same principle as Sanskrit. Reading and writing, that's all. *Jagadīśa: So far as the financial situation, I've discussed with Bhagatjī, and it seems that the best idea is to open a separate gurukula maintenance account with co*-signers Bhagatjī and Rūpa-vilāsa, so that . . . because there's so much . . . Prabhupāda: So then some of them, they are getting money. Jagadīśa: Yes, the parents are sending money. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jagadīśa: Because with the temple there has been confusion. Prabhupāda: Now the temple, you can make separate account. Jagadīśa: We have one question about . . . there's one of the boys. His name is Jagaman, and he's a . . . he's a more or less a bad boy. He's had a bad background. His mother's a devotee, and she's a nice devotee, but he's very . . . he terrorizes the other boys. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Jagadīśa: He misleads them. He lies. Prabhupāda: How old he is? Jagadīśa: He's thirteen. Prabhupāda: So he cannot be . . . he must go back. We cannot spoil other children. *Rūpa*-vilāsa: They are being spoiled by him. Jagadīśa: I was thinking, to make an example of him, either we should beat him or send him back. Prabhupāda: Best thing will be send him back. He's incorrigible. Yaśodānandana: Personally I had that boy with me for two months when I went to South India preaching, and I thought it would be an asset to have a young boy, but he was so misbehaved that it was too much problem. And the same things that he was doing in the beginning with me, telling lies and misbehaving, he is still doing now, and he does not correct himself, never. He has no effort to better his behavior or his conduct. He does not chant his rounds. He rarely comes to the kīrtana , or else when he comes to the kīrtana , he does not chant. He simply plays and makes fun. And it's very . . . he has a very bad influence on the other boys. Prabhupāda: No, then he should be sent back. Or he can be sent to Bombay to work ordinarily. Or Hyderabad farm, like that. Let him work on the ground. Yaśodānandana: He speaks Bengali. That boy was in Bengal before, and he picked up Bengali a little bit. Prabhupāda: So he can go. Pradyumna: He's very intelligent, but he's just had a bad . . . Prabhupāda: So he was in Māyāpur? Yaśodānandana: Yes, he was in Māyāpur before. He knows Bengali. He can speak Bengali with us. Prabhupāda: So he can go with the Māyāpur preaching party as well. Yaśodānandana: We could send him with Bhavānanda Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be nice. He knows Bengali. Let him go to Bengal and keep him under Bhavānanda. Jagadīśa: I think that he'll be a problem wherever he goes. Prabhupāda: No, Bhavānanda will correct his problem. Jagadīśa: I think Bhavānanda wouldn't want to take him, because he knows he's a problem. *Rūpa*-vilāsa: Bhavānanda told me he did not want to see that boy again. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Rūpa*-vilāsa: Bhavānanda told me he did not want to see that boy again. Pradyumna: In Māyāpur he had some girl . . . Jagadīśa: In my opinion, the best thing is to make an example and beat him. Prabhupāda: Yes, send him to farm, work in the field. If he does not work, beat him. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ . Bhagatjī: Ek baat yaad a gayi. Pehle jo kuch crime karte the, to phasi ya kalapani. To kalapani me Singapore ki taraf ya Malaya phek dete the. Aap unko Hyderabad me bhej dete hai. (laughter) (I remember how criminals used to be sent for lifetime imprisonment or hung until death. For lifetime imprisonment, they were dispatched to Singapore or Malaysia. Similarly, you send them to Hyderabad.) (laughter) Prabhupāda: Ha. Hyderabad bhejo, usko kaam karao, usko matti khodne ka kaam do. Nahi kare to usko pito. Aise kya hai. (Yes. Send him to Hyderabad—make him work hard and till the ground and if he doesn't listen, then beat him.) Yaśodānandana: He was just in Hyderabad for that ceremony there, and he caused such disruption in the whole temple that I don't think they'd want him there. Jagadīśa: The thing is, if we beat him here and keep him here, then all the boys will straighten up because they will see that if they go bad, then this will be their punishment. Prabhupāda: As you think, you can do. But I wanted to engage in farm work, digging. Yaśodānandana: Yes, that is his propensity. Actually it's a fact when he was with me I would try to teach him *Īśopaniṣad* and your purports, which are so clear and simple, but after three or four times explaining the same thing, he would become angry to receive the instruction. Prabhupāda: No, no. He is meant for śūdra's work. (laughter) Yaśodānandana: And when that boy would be told to watch himself . . . Prabhupāda: You cannot expect that everyone is Brahmin . No. He has got śūdra mentality, so let him till the ground for Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). He is fit for tilling so let him till and produce grain for Kṛṣṇa. Jagadīśa: Hyderabad? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Hard work. He should be given hard work. This gurukula is for high, high*-class Brahmin , kṣatriyas , not for the vaiśyas and śūdras . (Bhagatjī laughs) No, everyone is required for Kṛṣṇa's service, but there . . . that I was describing today. There must be division. Don't put horse before a cart. Pradyumna: Race horse before the cart. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pradyumna: Race horse before the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that will not be nice. Bhagatjī: Vaiśya . . . log (. . . people) will have some betterment . . . Prabhupāda: Vaiśya is meant for kṛṣi . Indian man: If you don't teach vaiśyas for this gurukula then how do they do the accounts? Prabhupāda: No no, we are not taking vaiśyas by birth. Jagadīśa: Accounts is just a skill. Anyone can learn to do account. Indian man: No, vaiśya is special work. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, accounts are meant for kāyasthas , śūdras . (Indian man laughs) Vaiśyas are meant for producing grain and protecting cows. Yes. According . . . one Englishman used to say: "This clerical job means educated laborer, educated śūdra ." (laughs) Śūdra . . . actually the kāyasthas are counted amongst the śūdras . You know that? Bhagatjī: In Bengal kāyasthas is the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, Bengal. Mean in U.P. Bhagatjī: In U.P. kāyasthas are śūdras . *Prabhupāda: And original they are śūdras . The history of Bengali kāyasthas . . . they went with the Brahmins as servant. That is the history. And in Bengal the system is . . . jaat harale kayat. Jiska koi jaat ka thikana nahi chalta, wo kaastha ho gaya. Ye Bengal me aisa bola jata hai, jaat harale kayat . . . (if you lose your caste, then you are a kāyastha . One who cannot follow the principles of his respective varṇa or class, becomes a kāyastha . This is the system in Bengal.) Actually it is . . . if some low*-class man, he becomes rich, then he's taken into the kāyastha community. Anyone who cannot stick to the principle of caste system, he becomes a kāyastha . *Bhagatjī: Varṇa*-saṅkara . Prabhupāda: Ah yes. Jaat harale kayat. Ye Bengal me hai. (If you lose your caste, then you are a kāyastha . This is the system in Bengal.) Some of them are kṣatriyas and some of them . . . like that. But that is not essential. That is all gone. Now, if one cannot take education, he can be used in farm work, little hard work. *Jagadīśa: Bhakti*-kīrtana is another problem. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Jagadīśa: Bhakti*-kīrtana , Saurabha's boy. He is only eight, but he is becoming like a street boy. Prabhupāda: So let him go to farm working. Farm working is for suitable . . . Bhagatjī: He likes that. He'll play with cows. He likes dung. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? Jagadīśa: He likes dung. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Let him take care. He should take care. Therefore we must have all these engagement. He'll be encouraged to take care of the cows. Bhagatjī: But he's not in gurukula . How can you send him? He is with Saurabha. Saurabha left him for five days. Saurabha is keeping him. Prabhupāda: If the father takes care, that's all right. Otherwise he can go to Hyderabad. Hyderabad should be for gṛhasthas , for plowing, for growing, and flowers, like that. No education required. Bhagatjī: He is not interested in education. Not at all. Prabhupāda: No, no education . . . that is waste of . . . for such boys who are not interested, why they should be enforced, education? They are not meant for that. Education is for higher brain, sober brain. And not that everyone has to become literate. It is not required. He can do other work. Yes. Bhagatjī: Prabhupāda means that according to the nature, you engage them. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ . "You can do this? All right, do it. Why you should be forced to learn Sanskrit? Not necessary. Not necessary." Dhanurdhara: What of a boy who does the chanting nicely and the kīrtana nicely but doesn't do school work nicely? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dhanurdhara: What of a boy who does the japa very nicely and . . . Prabhupāda: Well, japa . . . whether his father is doing japa nicely, that is also doubtful, what to speak of children. Japa , children cannot . . . that should not be taken very seriously. Whatever he can do, that's all right. We should enforce, we should . . . but not that if he does not immediately, he should be rejected. No. *Jagadīśa: You've often said the first*-class intelligent men are the brāhmaṇas , second-class intelligent men are the kṣatriyas . . . *Prabhupāda: So we have to train like that, guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ , not that everyone should be Sanskrit scholar. Why? It is not necessary. There are so many other things. *Jagadīśa: The inclination depends on guṇa*-karma . *Prabhupāda: Shobai korbe jomidari, ke korbe mubedari. Sab zamindar ho gaya to phir mubedari kaun karega. (If everyone becomes a landlord then who will become the servant.) Although by nature we should not enforce something. We should see for which work he is suitable, you should engage him. And we must have all departments of work—the weaving department, the plowing department, the cow*-keeping department, the Sanskrit department, the English department, the trading department. We should have all the departments. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Jagadīśa: Head, arms, belly and legs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whichever suitable, that . . . one must be suitable for any of these. It is the guide's intelligence: for which purpose he is suitable, engage him, like that. That is required. Not that everyone has to become a big scholar in Sanskrit. That is not required. Let him come to gurukula , but if he is not suitable . . . gurukula , this . . . so far character is con . . . that is for everyone. Just like early rise in the morning, chanting, and going to the . . . what is the objection? Anyone can do it. That is practice. And for working, if he is not suitable for higher education, let him go to the farm, take care of the cows grow food, flowers, fruits, eat, and dance and chant. Chanting, dancing, everyone will take part. There is no doubt. Bhagatjī: How to mend him from lies? He speaks lies. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagatjī: How to mend him from lies? Prabhupāda: That is by your good association. What lies he tells, don't believe him at all. That's all. Take him that he speaks only lies. Then don't believe. Whatever he says, you force him to do. Take him that he speaks only lies. Why should you consult him? He's a liar. But see that he's working, that's all. Now we are getting so much land, we can develop. We can utilize everyone's service. That requires brain. Not that "He cannot do this, therefore reject him"—no, engage him in some other . . . Jagadīśa: One other point I want to make, and that is that until the construction is completed, I think we should wait . . . Prabhupāda: There is ample place now where can live. Jagadīśa: But I mean to bring more boys we should wait until the construction . . . Prabhupāda: Why? Let them come. It is already there. It is not that the guesthouse is all filled up. Let them come. Jagadīśa: As many as possible? Prabhupāda: Why not? Jagadīśa: Okay. *Prabhupāda: Let them come. And arrangement should be made when it is . . . if Vṛndāvana is too hot, at that time we can send them to Mahabaleshvara, or if we get that Madras place, that is very cooling, Nilgiri Hills. That will be good recreation for them. They should be kept quite comfortably and built up, their character, education. That is wanted. There is need of some good first*-class men, ideal men. The world is full of rogues and thieves and bad character. Ye jo Sarasvati vidyalaya, ye log kya kar rahe hai? (What are they doing, these Sarasvatī-vidyālaya people?) Bhagatjī: Shiksharthi nahi, vidyalaya khali padha hua hai Prabhupāda. (There are no teachers, the school is empty Prabhupāda.) Prabhupāda: To kyu hum log thoda le, hum log . . . (So why don't we acquire it, we can . . .) *Bhagatjī: Hume to aj . . . plan kye the . . . (indistinct) . . . panch che mahine ke liye le le. Char*-panch mahine ke liye bacche ate hai. (We had planned to acquire it for 5 to 6 months. Kids come here for 4 to 5 months.) *I just told you that building, that Śiśu*-vidyālaya, Sarasvatī *Śiśu*-vidyālaya, you saw it with Guṇārṇava? Jagadīśa: Yes. Bhagatjī: That's it. Prabhupāda asks about that. Jagadīśa: Oh. But they said no. Bhagatjī: Who said? Jagadīśa: Guṇārṇava went to see them, Mr . . . what's his name. Prabhupāda: You cannot send Guṇārṇava. He is not fit for this purpose. You should go yourself. Jagadīśa: Okay. *Prabhupāda: Kya wo padha hai, kya unka buddhi nahi. Hum log ko dede hum abhi Sarasvati vidyalaya bana de, ladki log ke liye. Sab lifeless hai. Kuch karega nahi aur kuch dusro ko karne ka sahaya nahi karega. Ab ye Dhanuka ka ye jo hai, kya kuch kaam nahi hota, padha hai. (What are they doing, don't they have any intelligence? Let them give it to us and make it into a real Sarasvatī*-vidyālaya, for the girls. They are all lifeless. They will neither do anything themselves nor help others to do something. This Dhanuka āśrama , what are they doing?) Bhagatjī: Sanskrit school hai, bacche padhte hai waha pe. Kal panchvi . . . (indistinct) . . . hui . . . (indistinct) . . . Dharma sangha, unka naam rakha hai Dharma sangha. (There is a Sanskrit school. Yesterday fifth grade . . . (indistinct) . . . they named it Dharma sangha .) Prabhupāda: Wo kya karte hai, baccho ke? (What do they do, those kids?) Bhagatjī: Bacche padhte hai sanskrit, bis marks ka exam dete hai . . . (Children study Sanskrit, write an exam of twenty marks . . .) Prabhupāda: Kitne bacche hai? (How many students are there?) Bhagatjī: Kafi hai. Pacchis tees ladke hai. (Quite a few. 25 to 30 boys are there.) Prabhupāda: Tab to thik hai. (Then it's okay.) Bhagatjī: Ha. Sanskrit padhate hai baccho ko. Unke kuch bacche Vaishnav bhi ho gaye hai, sadhu bhi ho gaye hai Vaishnav. (Yes. They teach Sanskrit to the kids. Some of them have become Vaiṣṇava saints.) Prabhupāda: Tab to thik hai. (Then it's okay.) (break) Jagadīśa: That's our report, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's our report. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Do that. Yaśodānandana: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- November 6, 1976, Vrndavana (Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper) *Prabhupāda: The present time, it is called Kali*-yuga. (aside) Take little prasādam . Kali-yuga means this age . . . Kali-yuga means the age of quarrel and disagreement. Dr. Kneupper: Age of . . .? *Prabhupāda: Quarrel and disagreement. Because there is no standard idea. So I'll disagree with you, you'll disagree with me, and on slight provocation there will be fight. This is age called Kali*-yuga. Dr. Kneupper: Do you see that nations will fight too? That there will be wars, things like that? Prabhupāda: Yes, so many difficulties. Even there is no war, the natural disturbance and foolish government will create such situation that people will become mad in hopelessness. Dr. Kneupper: Very dark. Prabhupāda: Very dark, yes. First thing, there will be no rainfall. Due to the sinful activities of the people, from nature the punishment will be there will be no rainfall. I have seen already in Europe. Everywhere there is scarcity of rainfall. And on account of scarcity of rainfall, food production will be reduced. They will try to eat meat, killing, and maintain themselves. But that is also not very prospective. How long you will . . .? The animals will also die. Then in Europe they are doing that, that on account of scarcity of rain there is no grass, so they are thinking, "These animals die for want of food. Let us eat them." This is their intelligence. Dr. Kneupper: Well, do you see that many people will die, because there's not . . . many people will die. Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is no rainfall, either animal or men, they will die for want of food. Dr. Kneupper: What do you think would be the remedy or solution to the problem? *Prabhupāda: Remedy is they should admit that there is God. But they do not admit, especially the so*-called scientist rascals and atheist philosophers, politicians. They do not accept the authority of God. They think they will be able to manage things in their own way. And they say clearly, "There is no God." But there is nature. You can say, "I don't care for the government," but the government force is there; police is there; military is there. Similarly, you may say: "Defy the control of government," but the agent of God is there, the material nature. That will punish you. There will be no rain, there will be no food production, and the rascal governments will take advantage of it, "food relief." They'll tax, as if by taxing they will be able to combat with nature. So three things we'll have to meet: no rain, no food, and government taxes. Then how people will remain in sane condition? They will become mad. Dr. Kneupper: But your teaching, doesn't it offer a way of meeting these problems? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are teaching people God consciousness. Then everything will be solved. Dr. Kneupper: You say that man does not understand nature. The scientist studies nature, but yet he doesn't really understand it. Prabhupāda: Why they do not understand it? Why don't you understand that there is control over us? Where is the difficulty? Foolishly we do not try to understand. Do you admit it, that above us there is control? Do you admit? Dr. Kneupper: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: No, anyone. Dr. Kneupper: Some people do. Prabhupāda: Why others? That means they are foolish. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. Well, each person has his own thought. Prabhupāda: No, no, that means . . . he may be rascal, but it is a fact there is control over us. Just like if there is no rain, is it not control over you? Can you produce rain? Dr. Kneupper: I would say that there is a universal intelligence guiding everything. Prabhupāda: Yes, that means control. How can you deny the control over you? Dr. Kneupper: What do you understand is man's place in nature? Should he invent, let's say, electricity? Should he invent machines? Do you think these are good, or should he just leave those alone? Prabhupāda: Well, these are good or bad. Suppose if there was no this comfortable pad. That does not mean that I cannot sit. If there was no electricity, it does not mean we would have died. Dr. Kneupper: No. Prabhupāda: There was lamp. We were doing that. So we don't condemn electricity, but it does not mean because we have got electricity, we shall deny the authority of God. That is rascaldom. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. You might have improved from the oil lamp to electricity. That does not mean that you have the control over God. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, certainly not. Prabhupāda: So these foolish rascals, because they have improved little, they are denying, "Oh, now there is no need of God. That is opiate." What is that? Opiate? Jagadīśa: Opiate of the people. Prabhupāda: "They make the man foolish, God consciousness," and so on, so on. These scientists, they declare, "What is God? This is all superstition." Dr. Kneupper: But in the world there seem to be many different religions, many different faiths. Prabhupāda: Religion you may have. Religion means to try to understand God. Any religion—you take Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muhammadan religion—there is little attempt to understand God. So any religion which gives you knowledge of God and you understand what is relation with God, that is perfect religion. We have no quarrel. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think if all men . . . let's say, all the religions could try to come together . . . Prabhupāda: Religion means to understand God and to follow God's order. That is religion. Just like government and government law. So if the citizen understands what is the law of the government and abides by it, then he's a good citizen. Similarly, any person who understands God and abides by the order of God, then he is religious. Why do you stand? You may be Christian; *I may be Hindu, he may be Muhammadan. It doesn't matter. Everyone should understand God and the relationship with God and act accordingly. Then it is perfect religion. And if there is no conception of God, no carrying out order of the God, that is not religion. That is cheating. But generally they do not accept God—still, he is stamping himself that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian." He has no idea what is God, how to abide by His order, and they are fighting that "I am Christian and you are Hindu. Therefore we must fight." This is going on. Nobody understands what is God. Pseudo*-religion. Practically there is no religion. If there is no government—you make your law, I make my law—then how there will be peace? That is the position. They do not understand what is God, and "I am Christian" or "Hindu" or "Muhammadan, now let us fight." That's all. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think that there is a special way that Hinduism looks upon man's place in the universe? Prabhupāda: "The Hindu religion" is a vague term. Dr. Kneupper: It's a what? *Prabhupāda: It is a vague term. It is not clear. It is not clear. Real term is, it is called Vedic principle. Vedic principle. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: Vedic knowledge means to understand God. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam ( BG 15.15). So anyone who tries to understand God, he is in the Vedic line. Veda means knowledge, so as you get the stock of knowledge, that is called Vedas . But as soon as we say Vedas , they think it is Hindu. Mathematics is a science. So any scientific man will accept mathematics. Where is the question of Hindu mathematics? Gold is gold. If it is in the hand of Hindu, it is Hindu gold? Hindu, Muslim gold? Gold is gold. But when we give the Vedic knowledge, they think it is Hindu idea. Dr. Kneupper: Are you saying that this knowledge has appeared in many forms? Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kneupper: Does it appear also in, let's say, Christianity, in Muslim, Muhammadanism? Prabhupāda: No, no, I say that every religion, there is an attempt to understand God. Why do they not understand God, what is God? Then everything will be solved. But they are decrying, "There is no God. God is dead," and "There is no need of God, now we have got science." In every step they are trying to kill God. That's all. Dr. Kneupper: That's true of certain people, but there are also many . . . Prabhupāda: Majority, they do not understand what is God. Dr. Kneupper: There are many sincere seekers, I think, in Christians and Muslims. At least I have met. Prabhupāda: Yes. That must be. There must be some sincere men. That can be admitted. But still the sincere man also does not understand clearly what is the meaning of God. "I believe in God." "I believe in God," they say. Just like in America they say: "We trust in God." But what is God, he does not know. So what is the meaning of this, "I trust in God"? That is a phobia. Dr. Kneupper: It probably means many things. Prabhupāda: If I say: "What do you mean by God?" they cannot give any clear definition. And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, "Here is God. Take Him." But they have no knowledge. They will say, "They are presenting some Hindu god," and then they do not accept Him. Dr. Kneupper: What do you understand by that word "God"? Prabhupāda: God means supreme controller. Dr. Kneupper: Super . . .? Prabhupāda: Controller. Dr. Kneupper: The master of the universe. Prabhupāda: That's it. Dr. Kneupper: Well is that . . . do you think that this concept is, let's say, the special insight of the Vedic? Prabhupāda: No, no. You, as a philosopher, you can understand that there is supreme controller. Can you deny it? Dr. Kneupper: I would . . . only with great difficulty, I think, it seems to me. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is . . . you cannot deny it. But they foolishly deny it. Therefore they are rascals. So how you can convince the rascals the right way? If you give me a dozen of dogs, can I convince him that what is God? Dr. Kneupper: Hardly. They have no capacity to understand. Prabhupāda: But they have no capacity. The modern civilization, we are creating dogs and hogs, so how they will understand God? Dr. Kneupper: Do you think there will always be a few who understand? Prabhupāda: Certainly. Unless one . . . but if there is a class of men, ideal, who understands God, then people will follow. We require one moon; *then the darkness will be dissipated. But if in the millions of stars, what is the use? So they are creating millions of rascals, not one sane man, the modern civilization, the so*-called philosophers, so-called scientists. Don't mind. This is the fact. Dr. Kneupper: Do you basically reject the modern civilization? Prabhupāda: No, no. I say they are being foolishly trained. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Prabhupāda: The whole education system is bad. Dr. Kneupper: Can you see no hope that there will be change? Prabhupāda: There is hope. There is cent percent hope, provided you accept the right way. Dr. Kneupper: But would you say the right way would have to be, let's say, to be a follower of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: "God" means Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Kneupper: What about . . .? As I understand, in the *Gītā* . . . *Prabhupāda: God . . . Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. So God must be all-attractive, full controller. Our definition of God is, All wealth, all power, all intelligence, all beauty, all renunciation. In this way. Jagadīśa: These are new books in French, Kṛṣṇa book and Upadeśāmṛta . This devotee has just brought them from Bhagavān dāsa. Prabhupāda: Oh. Thank you. When you have come? Devotee: Two days ago. Prabhupāda: Oh. (to Professor) You know French language? Dr. Kneupper: Yes. Yes, I saw a copy earlier today at the . . . the man who did the translation, I forget his name. From Chicago, I think. He worked on the translation. It's very beautiful. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen it. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. I forget his name. It's very nice. Very beautiful. Prabhupāda: This is French book, Kṛṣṇa . Jagadīśa: Umāpati. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, Umāpati. Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, Umāpati. He is here. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I met him this afternoon. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . give the idea of God. Dr. Kneupper: To try to teach, try to help people understand. Prabhupāda: And now in India another danger is that so many rascals, they are declaring, "I am God." And this India, people have become so fallen down, they accept all these rascals as God. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think the same problem is here in India as in other countries? Prabhupāda: No, in your country there is no God. That is another problem. (laughter) There is no God. And here rascals are God. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Prabhupāda: The problem remains the same. You say frankly, "There is no God," but these rascals say: "There is God, but here is my God." And he says, "No, here is my God." Dr. Kneupper: No one knows the real God. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No one knows the real God. Dr. Kneupper: How does one distinguish between what is a false God . . . Prabhupāda: This is the formula. Just like aiśvaryasya . Now, you have got some money, but you cannot say that, "I have got all the money of the world." That you cannot say. You may possess some states, but you cannot say that "I am the owner of all the states." So God is the proprietor. You have got your country. Which country you belong to? Dr. Kneupper: United States. Prabhupāda: United States. So you have got certain area. But when you go to the seaside, then who is the proprietor of the sea? As philosopher, will you not think it? Dr. Kneupper: There is no proprietor, strictly speaking. Prabhupāda: Why no proprietor? A small tank if you dig, you immediately claim, "This is my tank," and such a big ocean, and there is no proprietor? As philosopher, how you can think like that? Dr. Kneupper: Well, I think of what is the basis of property, property is just a convention . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Suppose I go in a park. There is nice tank, reservoir of water, well decorated. And if I think, "There is no proprietor," is it not my foolishness? There must be one proprietor, but I do not know him. That is real sense. Similarly, everything has got proprietor. Why the sea and the land, the so many other things, why there is no proprietor? This is foolishness. Dr. Kneupper: I don't understand how this relates to distinguishing who are the true teachers . . . Prabhupāda: No, that I have already explained. Everyone is foolish now. You cannot distinguish who is thief and who is not thief. Thakbaj se gaon ojo. (The village is full of cheaters.) If you study everyone, you will find everyone is rascal at the present moment. Dr. Kneupper: But surely there are some who are sincere. Prabhupāda: Some must be there. There is no doubt about it. But they are so in minority, who will hear about them? "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." The whole world is rascal. If somebody is intelligent, who cares for him? Just like people laugh at me that I am talking of God. I am not only talking; I am writing so many books. My only endeavor is to understand God, that's all. There is no sectarian. And I am selling my books all over the world. So not that everyone is foolish. They're trying to understand my presentation, big, big scholars, big, big philosophers. Yes. Dr. Kneupper: Oh yes, we have many of them in our library. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is knowledge. If people kindly take it, everything will be solved. But they have stubbornly denied, "No God." And I am stubbornly fighting, "Yes, there is God." That is the . . . now the whole America is combining to fight against me, opposition that, "This man is brainwashing, controlling the mind, and our children are kidnapped." They are bringing these charges against us. Just like you have come. Have I kidnapped you? Dr. Kneupper: Oh, no. Prabhupāda: (laughs) But these rascals say that I have kidnapped their children. Indian man (2): But judgment has been taken. *Prabhupāda: There must be judgment, but people have become so rascal. So I am trying to convince, although single*-handed that, "There is God," and they are bringing opposition. Indian man (2): That is the real philosophy. That is not only Indian philosophy; this is universal philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. God is for everyone. Indian man (2): God, the almighty powerful. Prabhupāda: God is not Hindu God, Muslim God, Christian. God is God. Now when I say: "Here is God. His name is Kṛṣṇa. His father's name is Nanda Mahārāja," now they will laugh. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think if a person is to be a real believer in God he has to also worship Kṛṣṇa or speak of Him? *Prabhupāda: No, God means Kṛṣṇa. He has to understand it. Therefore so many books. God has many names, millions, of which Kṛṣṇa name is the most important. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. Then you have to understand the science of God. How Kṛṣṇa is God, that you have to understand. But for that reason we are publishing so many books. We have already published eighty-four books, simply in English language. And they are being translated in German, French, Portuguese, then Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Hindi, Bengali, like that. Dr. Kneupper: It's a very great effort. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we are getting response. Our books are selling like hotcakes. (laughter) Yes. Indian man (2): This is about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, the person. Indian man (3): : Kṛṣṇa, the person. His book. Indian man (2): His book. Prabhupāda: Here it is written. Indian man (3): : Yes, the Supreme Personality. Prabhupāda: "*Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*." It is written there? Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I saw it. Prabhupāda: "Supreme Personality of Godhead." Yes. *Dr. Kneupper: This is a book of Kṛṣṇa. "The complete resume of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ." Prabhupāda: Tenth Canto. Indian man (3): : The person does not want to solve the questions. They want only to get riches. They want to get rich like . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, they don't want simple things. Indian man (2): And what is the use of becoming rich man? It is all fruitless. Prabhupāda: Rich man you can become, but for how long you shall be rich? The nature is so cruel; *at any moment he'll take away everything. Then what is the use of becoming? No, you become rich man. There is no . . . but you should know that "Although I am rich, powerful, everything can be taken by nature at any moment." Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). That is statement of God, that "Any moment . . . you try to become rich, powerful, and president and minister, that's all right, but any moment, I can take everything from you." So who will protect himself? They have no brain that, "Whatever I have created, it can be taken at any moment." So what is that confidence? They have no inquiry even. That this is a fact. Either you become Napoleon, Hitler or Gandhi or this or that, any moment everything will be taken away, "Get out." Not only that, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), you have to accept another body. And that is no guarantee what body you are going to get, because it is fully under the control of nature. They therefore don't believe in transmigration of the soul. And that is very great botheration. They try to evade. But Kṛṣṇa says, God says: "You cannot evade. It is nature's law." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Within your body the soul is there. On account of presence of the soul—you were a child, now you are a grown young man—the body has changed. You were a boy, now you are young man. So on account of presence of the soul, the body is changing. So when this body will be finished, the soul will exist. Therefore, naturally you have to conclude there will be another body. Dr. Kneupper: Is it possible to escape the conditions of being in the body? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is possible. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And that is the real problem. As soon as you get a body, you are in trouble. Dr. Kneupper: What is the purpose of there being a body? Prabhupāda: Being in body means . . . what is the purpose of being in the jail? Is there any purpose? Dr. Kneupper: Certainly for some punishment. Prabhupāda: Yes. So because we are punished, therefore we are getting this body. Dr. Kneupper: Why does man . . . why does the soul come into the body in the first place? Prabhupāda: Punishment. Dr. Kneupper: But he must have done something . . . Prabhupāda: You want to enjoy. Can you understand this? Everyone is trying to enjoy. So enjoy independently means that you don't care for . . . that is the fact. They don't care for God. So because they don't care for God, therefore they are punished, "You take care of your body." And as soon as you care for God, then there is no material body. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti . So God, therefore, teaches us how to get out of this body. Dr. Kneupper: That's the whole idea of mokṣa ? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Kneupper: Mokṣa ? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is. Mokṣa means to stay in your original body. And bondage means we want different types of enjoyment, so God gives us the facility: "All right. Enjoy." If I do not make any discrimination of food . . . as human being, we must have discrimination. But if you don't discriminate, then you get the body of a pig. You can eat even stool. If you want to eat meat unrestricted, you become a tiger. Nature will give you facility. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara . And there are 8,400,000's of bodies. So according to your desire, you'll get a body. God will give you. Dr. Kneupper: Is that what is meant when a man thinks when he dies, at the moment of his death . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: He goes there. Are there many places, let's say, beyond the physical? Prabhupāda: So many places. Don't you see, night? *Dr. Kneupper: No, I mean beyond this physical, three*-dimensional universe. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is only one*-fourth part manifestation of God's property. The three-fourth part is the spiritual world. Dr. Kneupper: Are there different regions for these higher worlds? *Prabhupāda: Beyond this universe. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). Find. He'll find out. Every information is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . *Dr. Kneupper: In the Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Mmm. That is the beginning of God consciousness. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Naśyatsu na vinaśyati . When everything in this material will be annihilated, that will exist. There is another world. Read it. Hari-śauri: "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." Prabhupāda: Purport? Hari-śauri: Purport: "Kṛṣṇa's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahmā. Kṛṣṇa's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter." Prabhupāda: There are two natures. One is material nature; *one is spiritual nature. The material nature—earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego—and beyond that, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām . This is inferior nature. Beyond this, there is a superior nature. And that superior, jīva*-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). That is the living entity. This big universe, this is material. But the living entities, because they are using this material for their so-called advancement, comforts . . . and because they have the power to utilize these material matters for their own purpose, they are superior. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā . And because this nature is being utilized, one is being utilized and one is utilizer. The utilizer is the superior, and the things utilized, they are inferior, but both of them are nature, God's nature. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā . Dr. Kneupper: Is there time in the higher nature? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Kneupper: Is there time? Prabhupāda: No. Higher nature means eternal. Dr. Kneupper: There are no changes in the higher nature? Prabhupāda: Changes when he gets into this material, inferior nature. He has to change the body, one circumstance to another, another, another, according to his desire. Just like you get a lump of dirt. You can mold it. You can make a pot. You can make a doll. So we are doing that. Child . . . the father has given birth to the child, and father has given the child a lump of earth, and he's playing. That's all. For both of them, the father is the proprietor. If the child wants to play, father says: "All right, play." So he's sometimes breaking, sometimes crying, sometimes laughing. This is going on. Dr. Kneupper: Then he goes back. Prabhupāda: Yes, if he gets sense. Therefore the father comes, that "You give up all this nonsense. Come home." So if you surrender to God, if you have grown up from the childish nature to the real human nature, then surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God. Then our life is perfect. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). (aside) Find out this verse. Hari-śauri: "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." *Prabhupāda: That's it. So everyone can become a great soul if he accepts the proposal of God. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śara . . . (BG 18.66). Everything is solved. But that he'll not do. Just like your first question was the "How to solve these problems?" The problems will be solved as soon as he surrenders to God. But that he'll not do. He is bigger than God. He will make solution by his own plan. This is the difficulty. Dr. Kneupper: Is that because of the age? *Prabhupāda: No, this is the . . . just like anyone is in the prison house, they are all criminals. But some of them are first*-class prisoners, some of them second-class, some of them third-class. But they are prisoner. Similarly, according to different time, people are more or less god . . . godless. So this time is more godless. The prison house is filled up with more third-class prisoners. Dr. Kneupper: How long does that period last? Prabhupāda: Well, now this age will . . . the duration of this age is calculated 4,3200 . . . 432 hundred thousands of years. Out of that we have passed only 500,000 . . . no, five thousand years. Dr. Kneupper: A long time to go. Prabhupāda: Yes. But why should you wait for the long time? You can go back to home, back to . . . immediately. That is our proposal, that "Why should you wait?" This may be long time. But we . . . you give up the connection with the material world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then after giving up this body you go back to home, back to Godhead. Then you have no connection, this. But we are make planning here, "We shall be comfortable." This is rascaldom. Indian man (2): We indulge our time . . . *Prabhupāda: We should stop all rascal plan and should take the plan given by God. Then it will be . . . everything will be all right. Simple solution. The God's plan is there in this book. Let us take it. Then everything is solved. But "No, we are scientist. We are philosopher. We are big man, politician. We shall make our own." Do, and suffer. God has given freedom: "All right." Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Kṛṣṇa is saying in the Bhagavad*-gītā after explaining Arjuna everything, then He asked, "What you have decided? Your plan or My plan?" So Kṛṣṇa said, "I am giving you freedom. Whatever you like, you can do." The plan is there. Now it is up to us to accept it or reject it. If you reject, you suffer. If you accept, you become happy. So we are requesting people, "Accept it." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Then you'll be happy." But who cares for us? He is making his own plan. Therefore he must suffer. Nature's law he cannot avoid. That's not possible. Nature's law, there is drought. And if God likes, immediately there will be rain. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ . That is also stated. (aside) So read that. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, annād . *The formula is there. (devotees looking for verse) Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ , yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ . Annāt , a-n-n-a-t . Get this light there on. Jagadīśa: This one? Prabhupāda: Yes, the outside. So all philosophers, all scientists, all politicians, let us combine together. The formula is there. (aside) Read it. Hari-śauri: "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of yajña , sacrifice, and yajña is born of prescribed duties." *Prabhupāda: That's it. There is no prescribed duties. Everyone is a butcher. Formerly there was distinction: "Here is a butcher," "Here is a religious man." At the present moment everyone is a butcher. Who is religious man? There was division, at least one class, first*-class man, second-class man, third-class man. Then, if there is ideal first-class man, even the fourth class, third class, he'll take the idea, "Oh, here is first class." But there is no first-class man. All fourth-class men. So who will give idea? And they want to remain fourth class. If you say that "You become first class," they will laugh: "What is the use of becoming first class?" First class means, find out, śamo damas titikṣā, then, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam . Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what did you want? You asked me to do something . . . Prabhupāda: I want the light on the veranda. Jagadīśa: It's on. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." *Prabhupāda: And if I teach that "I'll teach you how to become truthful," they will laugh. People will say: "Can anyone exist nowadays, simply becoming truthful?" Then damaḥ , self*-controlled. If I say: "Come here. I shall teach you how to control your senses," he will laugh that, "What is this nonsense? We shall enjoy life, and shall control senses?" This is the description of the first-class man, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava , saralatā , simplicity. No one is prepared to become first-class man. They will laugh. These are all primitive ideas. Dr. Kneupper: You think there is nobody like that? *Prabhupāda: Not nobody, there are. But people generally will not like that, "These are primitive ideas, to become truthful, simple and controlling the mind, controlling . . . these are all imaginary things. How one can live in the struggle for existence by becoming truthful?" They will say like that. Therefore everyone is fourth class. And the second*-class man, kṣatriya? Hari-śauri: "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas ." *Prabhupāda: This is kṣatriya . Now, who is kṣatriya ? A fourth*-class man, he never seen battlefield, and by vote he becomes president. And here kṣatriya means yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam . If there is fight he must come forward first of all. He is in his palace, and he's engaging common men, "Go and fight." When there was Battle of Kurukṣetra, Arjuna and Duryodhana, they came first. Because the battle was decided as soon as the leader is dead. No more fight. So they used to come first. This is kṣatriya . Where is that kṣatriya ? And they are becoming politicians simply by votes, all third-class, fourth-class men. What he'll do? Everyone is trying to keep his position by hook and crook. How he'll think of the people? How they will be happy? He is thinking of his own happiness. And these are politicians. There is no kṣatriya . There is no Brahmin. And there is no vaiśya . What is the vaiśya ? *Hari-śauri: Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). *Prabhupāda: Hmm. A vaiśya means he should provide food. So food means agriculture and giving protection to the cows. If you have got sufficient food grains and milk, the whole food question is solved. And these rascals, they are not giving protection to the cows, but they are killing cows. So there is no third*-class men even. All fourth-class. So how you can be happy under the control of fourth-class men? There is no first-class men, no second-class men, even no third class. That means all fourth class, fifth class. That's all. This is the human society, combination of fourth-, fifth-, tenth-class men. Tenth-class. The fourth-class . . . there are fourth-class men and more than that, fifth-class men, uncivilized. Aborigines, they are fifth class. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). There are so many. In the human civilized . . . civilization means there must be first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Then rest all fifth class, up to tenth class. But at the present moment there is some fourth-class men and all fifth class, sixth class, up to tenth class. So how we can be happy? There is no first-class men, there is no second-class men, not even third-class men. Who is caring for agriculture? They are preparing Goodyear Tire. Now eat tires. You rascal, eat tires. How long you'll eat tires? If there is no customer for tire, they're finished. *So that is coming. I went to Detroit about six months ago. There're factories. They have manufactured the wheels, huge stock. That means they are not selling. And the Goodyear Tire, they advertising, "So many millions tires we are manufacturing." You have been in Detroit? Yes. They're proud that "We have manufactured so many tires, so many wheels." The time will come when there will be no purchaser for tires and wheels, and they'll starve. That is coming. What they will do? If they become hungry there is no food grain. For some time they will eat, killing the cows, and then there will be no food, and what these tire and wheels will do? But there is no first*-class brain, that "We are wasting time by manufacturing tires and wheels. Without wheels we could live, but how we shall live without food grain?" There is no brain, no first-class men, no second-class men, no third-class men. Dr. Kneupper: There are farmers who produce . . . Prabhupāda: Well, in your country there is some adjustment because it is very big country, and you are all intelligent people. In other countries they are . . . but even though you have got resources, if you not properly utilize it, then the bad time is coming. You should expect. If your energy is all engaged in manufacturing tires and wheels, then who will go to the . . . actually I have seen in your country. Now the farmers' son, they do not like to remain in the farm. They go in the city. I have seen it. The farmers' sons, they do not like to take up the profession of his father. So gradually farming will be reduced, and the city residents, they are satisfied if they can eat meat. And the farmer means keeping the . . . raising the cattle and killing them, send to the city, and they will think that, "We are eating. What is the use of going to . . ." But these rascals have no brain that, "If there is no food grain or grass, how these cattle will be . . .?" Actually it is happening. They are eating swiftly. "The cattle will die. Before they die, let us kill and eat." Actually it is happening. In Italy they killed because the problem is twenty thousand cows. This is going on. They do not care that killing is sinful, because they don't care for God. This is going on. And sinful, sinful, sinful, everyone will be punished. The nature's law will act. Thakbaj se gaon ojo. (The village is full of cheaters.) There is a Bengali proverb, thakbaj se gaon ojo, (the village is full of cheaters,) that "One man wanted to take statistics, 'How many thieves are there in this village?' So when he began to take statistics, he saw everyone is thief. Then he said that 'What is the use of making statistics? This is village of thieves, that's all.' " So it is . . . at the present moment this is the position. If you make a statistics who is sinful and who is not sinful, you will find all sinful. And because they are sinful, they decry the existence of God. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante . . . (aside) Find out this, Seventh . . . because they are all sinful, they deny the existence of God. This is the position. Read it. Hari-śauri: "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest amongst mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me." *Prabhupāda: That's it. So you'll find everyone of this description, either sinful or lowest of the mankind or rascal or puffed*-up with false knowledge. But basic principle is: no God. So the only solution is let them first of all become God conscious. Then all solution. Otherwise there is no hope. Dr. Kneupper: The problem is very complex . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it must be complex. They will create complexity. Dr. Kneupper: And the solution is very simple. Prabhupāda: Solution. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām . . . and that we are preaching, that "You become God conscious. Everything will be solved." And who is caring for us? Rather, they are giving opposition that, "These rascals are kidnapping our sons, brainwashing, controlling the mind," creating courts case. Just see. This is going on. Dr. Kneupper: Do you see as a . . . when you're describing that if the world were going to be God conscious, it would . . . Prabhupāda: Everything will be solved. Dr. Kneupper: But you were describing the caste system or the . . . Prabhupāda: This is not caste system. It is natural. There is always an intelligent class of men in the society. So they should be, what is called, listed. They should be trained up properly. Dr. Kneupper: How do you envision . . .? Would you envision . . .? *Prabhupāda: Just like you are a philosopher. So you should not make only theories, "perhaps." But actually, by your philosophy, you establish the existence of God. Then you are philosopher. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya . . . (SB 1.5.22). Find out this verse in the Bhāgavata . Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka . If by your philosophical knowledge you prove, "Yes, there is God," then your philosophy study is perfect. And if you philosophize, "There is no God," that is useless waste of time. To gain popularity, if you make philosophy like . . . in your country there are so many rascal philosophers—Darwin, Freud. They are all rascals. They are predominant. Dr. Kneupper: I think there is some misunderstanding that many Americans may have about teaching that you have. Maybe you can clarify it. Prabhupāda: No you clarify it. It is your duty. You are philosopher. Dr. Kneupper: Well, that's why I am trying to understand it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: I think it's something like this, that . . . I've learned it from other of your devotees, or devotees of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, we have got our books. You are philosopher. You can read. You can understand the whole thing. There is no question of "This devotee, that devotee." We are giving in writing. So we cannot deny that. Dr. Kneupper: The question, though, is that there seems to be an advo . . . you advocate that there be a kind of Vedic society, that you are . . . *Prabhupāda: No, Vedic means knowledge, intelligent society. Why do you understand Vedic? Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda*-vido jñānena . This Veda word coming from knowledge. When I say that, "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Is there any objection? If I say that "Here is Mr. Such-and-such, a man of knowledge," so is there any objection? Dr. Kneupper: Is there a what? Prabhupāda: Is there any objection? Hari-śauri: Is there any objection. Prabhupāda: Will anybody object? Dr. Kneupper: It depends on whether the man shows himself to be a man of knowledge. Prabhupāda: No, no. If I present you that, "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Everyone welcomes knowledge. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, but one has to also show that he has knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is next. First of all, if I say that "Here is a man of knowledge," where is the objection? Now, whether you are man of knowledge, that will be tested next. But if I introduce you that, "Here is a man of knowledge . . ." Similarly if I say: "Here is man who knows *Vedas* ," so why the objection? Knowledge is for everyone. Why do they take, "Oh, *Vedas* , oh, it is Hindu"? Immediately you reject. Dr. Kneupper: I don't think it's so much question of rejecting the *Vedas* . . . *Prabhupāda: No, Vedas , they do not know what is Vedas . They think it is Hindu. This is the difficulty. As soon as say " Bhagavad*-gītā ," "Oh, it is Hindu idea." Dr. Kneupper: Well, many, many people do . . . *Prabhupāda: But that means they do not know what is the meaning of Bhagavad*-gītā , what is the meaning of Vedas . Unnecessarily they put some outside . . . just like they are doing now. They do not know what is knowledge, and they are accusing us that we are brainwashing. We are forbidding our devotees, "Don't eat meat." Oh, they are taking it: "It is revolutionary. Eh? How these men, they are stopping?" (someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (4): Apni bhalo achen? Ami Bholanath. Ami Benaras e thaki, ami ajke . . . (How are you? I am Bholanath. I am from Benaras, today . . .) (break) *Prabhupāda: So this is difficulty. If I say, "Here is a person who knows mathematics," why there should be . . . any person who is interested in mathematics will welcome him. So similarly, here is Vedic knowledge. Vedic knowledge means real knowledge. Here is Bhagavad*-gītā , the knowledge of God, but they misunderstand it. They think, "Oh, we have got another God." How God can be another? So people should be sober, that we are giving books. They should understand. And it is accepted by the educated class, big, big professors, big, big philosophers. It is not blind faith. Just like this version of Bhagavad-gītā , tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "As we are changing body even in this duration of life, similarly, when this body is finished, then another body." So where is the difficulty to understand? But they will say, "It is Hindu idea." Fact we are presenting that, "You are changing your body. When you came out of the womb of your mother, the body was so small. And then little bigger body, little bigger body, little bigger body. Now you are full-grown young man." So the body is changing, everyone can understand. But I can understand also that, "I had so big . . . small body and this body. Then body is changing; I am existing." Then where is the difficulty of the transmigration of the soul? Dr. Kneupper: Many people do accept it. Prabhupāda: But as soon as we say . . . "Oh, this is Hindu idea"; reject immediately. This is science, and they are taking "Hindu idea." Indian man (2): The problem is that identification only Indian philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise it is universal philosophy. Prabhupāda: It is universal, but they are taking it as Indian. Indian man (2): In order to identify that, Vedic, let's say Indian, actually that is not Indian. *Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be, knowledge is knowledge. It may be Indian or American, it doesn't matter. Just like university. Some student from India go to university in America to study higher knowledge. So that means that because he has gone to America, that is American knowledge? Knowledge is knowledge. So they should take on this background. But they are thinking that we are spoiling their children, brainwashing, controlling the mind, because against their principle, against their uncivilized way of life: meat*-eating, illicit sex, intoxication. This is uncivilized life. Why a man, civilized man, shall eat meat? He can prepare so many nice things. He has learned how to produce food, food grain. When they are uncivilized—there is no food; they do not know how to grow food—they can eat animal in the jungle. But if after becoming civilized, if you are eating the same thing, then what is the difference between civilization and not civilization? You have learned. And especially in your America you can get all nice foodstuff. You have got sufficient grains, sufficient fruits, sufficient vegetables, sufficient . . . everything sufficient. Why you should eat meat? This is uncivilized life. They could not give up the uncivilized way of life. And when you teach that "You become civilized. Give up this all nonsense. Don't eat." "Oh, it is brainwashing." You see? We are teaching them to become civilized, and they are taking it brainwashing. *Dr. Kneupper: Is that a teaching of the Bhagavad*-gītā , that one should not eat meat? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not . . . meat*-eating is third-class man's eating. It is not denied. Amedhya . But to give us our life, don't kill cows, because it gives you milk, very substantial food. If you want to eat meat, you can eat the hogs and dogs. But don't kill the cows. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). This is special. It is not forbidding meat-eating, but don't eat cows' flesh. That is loss. It is a great loss to the human society. If they do not have sufficient milk production, then their brain will be dull. They will not be able to understand subtle things. Therefore it is better to avoid it. But if you cannot avoid, you can eat some inferior, useless animals. But don't touch the cows. This is Bhagavad-gītā . Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . He never says pig- rakṣya . You can eat pig. You can eat the goats, the lambs. There are so many small useless animals. They are eating dogs also. The Chinese people, they eat dogs. *So you can eat dogs, hogs, so many other animals. But don't touch the cows. This is God's instruction. And they are advertising that, "The Hindus, they are so fool, they are worshiping an animal, a cow." They do not know what is the economic value of this cow. In the beginning of your life you want milk immediately in the morning. And you are killing the mother. You are civilized? Do you think? You take milk up to the point of death. In South Africa, before killing the cows, they drag out milk and then send it. Milk is important, but because they are uncivilized, they do this. You take milk. Instead of killing, you prepare so many nice things from milk which is good for brain, good for intelligence. But they do not know because uncivilized. Foolish fourth*-class men. So we are trying to bring them to become first-class men, and they are accusing of brainwash. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." We are teaching that "These boys, they are becoming first class." Anyone will worship them. How nice they look, how behavior, how their character. We are creating this, and they are accusing, "Oh, they are kidnapping our children." (aside to guest) Why you are going? Eh? Why you are going? Indian man (2): . . . ap baat kijiye. (. . . please continue.) *Prabhupāda: Ācchā . So this is our position. Now you are philosophers. You try to understand the whole philosophy and combine together. People have become all fourth*-class, tenth-class, uncivilized men. They should be given the idea of God consciousness. I don't say only in the Western country. Everywhere this is the problem, all fourth-class men. So there is possibility to bring the fourth-class men to the first class. That is educational. It can be done. There is no difficulty. So this is the education, how to make fourth-class men or fifth-class men to come to the first-class standard. (aside) What is that? Which verse I wanted? Jagadīśa: Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the *Vedas* , sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, suppose you are a well*-known philosopher. If you say: "There is God," so many people will hear, "Oh, here is a big philosopher." Therefore your studies of philosophy will be perfect when you establish, "Yes, there is God." Otherwise it is useless, because you will waste your time and you'll waste . . . already they are godless. Dr. Kneupper: How does one establish clearly? *Prabhupāda: That requires thinking. That requires knowledge. Therefore we are giving so many books. You can study. You can present the case nicely with argument, philosophy. That is your duty. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānu . . . when you are able to describe God very philosophically, scientifically, mathematically, then your education is perfect. Dr. Kneupper: Are there any books particularly that focus on all this? *Prabhupāda: Every . . . there are so many books. There are so many books. The primary book is the Bhagavad*-gītā , yes, as it is, if you take it as it is. If you amend it to your whimsical way, then it is gone. Therefore we are presenting. This word we have added, Bhagavad-gītā "As It Is." Don't try to amend it. Then it will be foolishness. *Dr. Kneupper: If I wanted to know Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, you'd have to read Sanskrit, wouldn't you? Prabhupāda: No, we have this English translation. This is in French translation, in German translation. Dr. Kneupper: How does one decide . . . there are so many translations. How does one decide . . . *Prabhupāda: That depends on your philosophy. You are reading so many books. How do you select, "This is nice"? That depends on your philosophy. But if you accept it that it is spoken by God, then there is no argument. But why should you accept it, spoken by God? You read it, whether how much logical, how much full of knowledge. Then you can say. The same thing—just like Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "Within this body there is the soul, and because the soul is there, therefore body is changing." So anyone can . . . any layman can understand. Things are there like that. So there is no difficulty. If we take, "Oh, this description, the transmigration of the soul—Hindu idea." Why Hindu idea? It is science. Dr. Kneupper: One usually thinks of it as Hindu because . . . Prabhupāda: As soon as we consider it "Hindu," then it becomes sectarian. Then you will say: "I have got my Christian idea. Why shall I take your Hindu idea?" Dr. Kneupper: What is your view towards Christianity? Prabhupāda: Christianity is to some extent, but you have got different edition of Christianity. So far I know, as soon as they say: "Christian," immediately the question, "To which Christian party you belong?" What is that? Hari-śauri: Christians, yeah. Protestants, Methodists, Catholics . . . *Prabhupāda: So which is correct Christianity we do not know. But we have no such thing. There is no party. Bhagavad*-gītā , there cannot be any party. If anyone makes any party, he is immediately cancelled. But at least we believe in the Ten Commandments. Now, Lord Jesus Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." But why all the Christians are simply busy in killing? That is my first question. Dr. Kneupper: Not all of them believe in . . . *Prabhupāda: Ninety*-nine percent, they are maintaining all big, big slaughterhouse, all Christians. And Lord Jesus Christ ordered, "Thou shall not kill," but they are killing. What kind of Christian he is? Disobedience to the order of Christ, and still he is Christian? These things are going on. Then again party, this "ism," that "ism," that "ism." First of all, all of them are disobeying the Ten Commandments, and then there are parties. So which one you'll accept? *Dr. Kneupper: There's no such diversity of interpretation of the Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from Bhagavad*-gītā , I am talking of Christianity. How you can disobey the orders of Christ and you become Christian at the same time? Dr. Kneupper: There's always people falling short of what their . . . Prabhupāda: That's it. That means they are all useless. If you are Christian, how you can defy the order of Christ? You will disobey the orders of Christ; *still you are Christian? Just like in India they are all denying the Vedic culture, and still they are Hindu? All these rascals. So therefore I say whole world is full of rascals. If the Christians accept this word, that Lord says: "Thou shall not kill," why shall we kill? Welcome. Never mind whether Christian or Hindu. Welcome. Similarly, in India, if they accept Bhagavad*-gītā , welcome. But everyone is rascal, mūḍha . Nobody cares for God, nobody cares for God's messenger. All rascals. This is the position. They are creating God. They are creating religion. They are creating sect. This is going on. Dr. Kneupper: (indistinct) . . . even though they are sincere . . . *Prabhupāda: That should be educated from the very beginning. Therefore we are opening gurukulas, sane brain. Otherwise their brain is spoiled by so*-called bad education. I inquired from your State Secretary that, "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so why not spread this God consciousness, 'What is God?' You blindly say, 'God in Trust,' but what is God? Do you know? So why not spread this science?" I received no reply up to date. They might have said: "Here is a crazy fellow. Nobody has inquired like this." That's all. They do not like to enter into the controversy. Actually they do not believe in God, but write, "In God We Trust," is it not? Dr. Kneupper: That's what they write. Prabhupāda: Yes, but they don't believe in God. Hypocrisy. Because if they trust in God, then they could not cheat that, "I am paying you one thousand dollars by some papers." This is cheating. And promise, "In God I Trust." Is that money? So this cheating is begun from the government. Now how the people will be honest? Everywhere, in all government, they are giving you some papers and you accept it as money. This is not brainwash. Just see. They are educating people that, "I promise to pay. This is money," but actually he's receiving some papers. This is not brainwash. And we are talking of God, that is brainwash. Dr. Kneupper: Perhaps when people . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, this is the present situation. When people will be honest, that is future. Dr. Kneupper: But I mean now, when they make these confrontations and give you these difficulties, perhaps it will give your people a chance to teach them and clarify . . . Prabhupāda: Well, that we are doing, but this is the opposition. That our boys are trained up. They are trying to meet the opposition. But my point is that such a nice thing we are giving. Why they should oppose? That means uncivilized. Why good thing should be opposed? They say: "In God We Trust," and we are speaking of God only. We have no other business, and they are opposing. And they write, "In God We Trust." Hypocrisy. "If we believe in God, we trust in God, all right, they are talking of God. Let us hear." That is sense. That Patrick? Patrick? He kidnaps our devotees. Hari-śauri: Ted Patrick. Prabhupāda: Yes. And by force trying to give him meat but now, if educated men of your country, they come forward, understand this philosophy, then combined effort . . . my philosophy is that American and Indian: American money and Indian culture, combine together; *the whole world will be changed. That is my philosophy. It is coming to some extent. These American boys, they help me. (aside) What is that newspaper cutting? Appeared in Bombay? Bring it. They have published this philosophy, my philosophy. Actually, if I not have gone to America, at least I could not publish . . . (indistinct) . . . when I was in India, with great difficulty I published three books only. And because I went to America, I was able to publish eighty*-four books. And it is going on still. These boys help me. Just like they are publishing now, still. Hmm. Read it. Jagadīśa: "The West is like a blind man, and the East is like a cripple . . ." Prabhupāda: No, read the heading and everything. Jagadīśa: (indistinct) . . . "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma, written by the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . the West is like a blind man, and the East is like a cripple, says A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder-ācārya of the International Society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The two should cooperate. The blind man should carry his lame companion, and the lame man should give guidance to his blind friend. In this way both will benefit. Similarly, the wealthier Western countries should assist the materially exploited East, and the East, particularly India, should help the spiritually blind West to understand scientifically the actual higher purpose of human life. To offer India's transcendental science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the West, Prabhupāda sailed from Bombay to New York City in 1965. After a year of great personal struggle, he established the first center of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In the next few years he attracted hundreds of sincere disciples and opened centers in dozens of American and European cities. He also established gurukula schools and farming communities based on the ancient Indian pattern. "In 1970 Prabhupāda returned to India and with the assistance of many Indian gentlemen and some of his disciples, he established ISKCON centers in Bombay, Delhi, Calcutta, Madras and the rural holy spots of Vṛndāvana, Lord Kṛṣṇa's place, and Māyāpur, West Bengal, the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Soon he attracted many Indian disciples as well, who opened centers in Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Chandigarh and in several rural areas. Today ISKCON has about one hundred āśramas , gurukula schools, temples and farming communities around the world. But according to Prabhupāda, his books are his most important contribution. In the last ten years he has published over eighty volumes in sixteen languages. Scholars in India and abroad have praised Prabhupāda's books as classics, scholarly and authoritative. Literally crores of his literatures are sold annually, and this figure is almost doubling every year. "How is it possible to sell so many books about Kṛṣṇa? Girirāja, president of the ISKCON center in Bombay, answers, 'People all over the world are looking to India for transcendental knowledge. They know that India's ancient Sanskrit literature speaks of lasting happiness beyond the frustration of material life. They are eager to buy our books because they know that we are presenting the genuine Vedic culture. In fact, many Westerners come here to discover the real India for themselves . . . (indistinct) . . . life experience. For this reason we are building a model Vedic community at our Juhu center in Bombay, providing all the modern amenities for scholars, students and sophisticated inquirers from abroad as well as from India who can study the original Indian culture and practice. The center will include a Vedic library, theater, prasādam restaurant, gurukula school, an international guesthouse, as well as a temple and āśrama .' *"ISKCON is also building a model Vedic community in Māyāpur near Calcutta based on cottage industry and agriculture. The important principle is that everyone must be gainfully employed. In ISKCON's Māyāpur project hundreds of persons operate spinning wheels and more than a dozen handlooms, dye the cloth, and . . . (indistinct) . . . printed in popular design, process rice and dāl by hand, crush sugarcane for sugar products, and manufacture by hand wooden shoes and other items of daily use. On twenty*-five acres of agricultural land in Māyāpur, ISKCON is developing and demonstrating scientific farming procedures such as crop rotation, organic fertilization, and using improved strains. ISKCON is also cross-breeding cattle from Canada and Australia with Indian cows to increase milk production. Thus the community provides its own cloth, food, and other daily needs, acts as an agricultural development and demonstration center, and additionally feeds thousands of people twice every week. Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON plans, the Māyāpur project will extend into a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand . . ." Prabhupāda: We have applied for 350 acres of land from the government. The process is going on. If we get, then we shall spend crores of rupees for . . . the description is . . . Jagadīśa: "Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON plans, the Māyāpur project will extend to a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand inhabitants, its own university, airport and stadium. It will also claim the world's largest planetarium, with 410 foot high Temple of Understanding . . ." (break) . . . Vedic civilization. Dr. Kneupper: It sounds like a beautiful project. That is near Bombay, now? Prabhupāda: No, that is near Calcutta. Dr. Kneupper: Calcutta. Prabhupāda: About sixty miles. Dr. Kneupper: Have they progressed much now? *Prabhupāda: Yes, the enquiry is finished. Now government is considering to give that land. If they give, we shall like that. There were many others, land offers, in Hyderabad, but I wanted to start this institution in the . . . on the birth*-site of Lord Caitanya. Otherwise we have got better land. We have asked government for 350 acres, but we have already got, in Hyderabad, 600 acres. Here also we can get immediately 500, 600 acres, like that. We have already got another plot of land, 100 acres, in Ahmedabad. So there are so many lands available, but I wanted to start this project in Māyāpur, the birthsite of Lord Caitanya. Therefore we are waiting. If they say no, then we shall attempt it somewhere else. Indian man: In Calcutta also there is a project? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is not very important. Dr. Kneupper: Well, it's been most interesting to meet you and hear you. I . . . unfortunately I have to go to Agra this evening. So I really want to thank you, and I will remember this, and I will read your writings and think very deeply on what you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: . . . said to me and . . . (indistinct) . . . this . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I recited also. It is the real utilization of every education. *Dr. Kneupper: Right. But the Bhagavad*-gītā is very wonder . . . it's . . . since I first read it, it's been one of my favorite . . . Prabhupāda: You are reading? Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I . . . I try to read it frequently, because it gives me some real spiritual . . . Prabhupāda: And if you want to know further, you can write to me. Dr. Kneupper: Good. I'll take back your blessing to Slippery Rock when I go back there. Prabhupāda: Yes, and there, so many old friends, you can offer them. Dr. Kneupper: Okay. Dr. Morrison and Dr. Sharma, so many other people . . . Prabhupāda: There is Sydney Weld there, when I went. Dr. Kneupper: Very good. Is the friend which you were . . . you were staying with somebody in Butler? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: Is he still there? Prabhupāda: No. That friend was one of my friends' son. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Prabhupāda: The boy went there for learning engineering. But she (he) settled there marrying one English girl. I became his guest for about a month. Then I came to New York. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Was the place Slippery Rock? Was that the first college . . .? Prabhupāda: No, the place was Butler. Dr. Kneupper: You were in Butler, right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: And then you spoke at a college. Prabhupāda: In the college, yes. Dr. Kneupper: Every time I go to that hall I remember the story that you spoke there. Prabhupāda: Oh, they still say. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. You must have left some kind of blessing upon it. It has a nice atmosphere. Prabhupāda: That was in 1965. *Dr. Kneupper: Sixty*-five. That far back. Prabhupāda: About eleven years ago. Dr. Kneupper: Such a short time, and so many changes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: The growth, the temple here, beautiful. On my next trip to India . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, you can come and stay here or in Bombay. We have got . . . Dr. Kneupper: But I want to see the one . . . the city when it's constructed. That would be really . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, that is . . . yes. Dr. Kneupper: I hope that is . . . in Calcutta will be a success story. Prabhupāda: You have got the contemplative man with you . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Yes, sir. Dr. Kneupper: This will be over 300 acres if it's . . . Prabhupāda: Three hundred fifty acres. Dr. Kneupper: It's a large city. Fifty thousand, did you say, people? How many people were there? Jagadīśa: Fifty thousand. Dr. Kneupper: Fifty thousand. Prabhupāda: Expecting fifty thousand. The real peace movement. Jagadīśa: That's what we're trying to bring together here in this city. (indistinct conversation going on as plans are shown) and then all around, the different communities, vaiśya community, the merchant community, trade community . . . (indistinct) . . . their own communities. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Hari-śauri: According to the Vedic system (indistinct speaking as devotees explain the plans) Prabhupāda: You have got? Jagadīśa: That's the purport to that verse? Read? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. *Jagadīśa: "Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire to the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu*-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection or self realization depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. "Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation of the Lord or His different energies because the Lord has set in motion by His inconceivable energy actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is therefore different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them. When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord the whole process becomes absolute." "The Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him. Therefore all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all the branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets, and celebrated littérateurs are generally engaged in writing sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord, they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord, and by doing so they become immortal. Similarly science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord." *"There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all*-powerful. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All knowledge not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord. And that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factual hari-kīrtana , for the glorification of the Lord." Dr. Kneupper: Well I will remember this. And I will read, look into your writings much more closely . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: . . . when I get back. Could I ask you if you might sign . . . put your name in . . . autograph? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Kneupper: Could you do that, please? Prabhupāda: So you can give him that book. Devotee: Scientific Basis? Prabhupāda: Would you like to read this book? Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I will read that, yes. Prabhupāda: So I'll sign in that book. Dr. Kneupper: Okay, okay, fine. Yes, that would be good. Very good. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Kneupper: Thank you very much for your time . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, I thank you for your coming. We want educated boys like you. Dr. Kneupper: Good. Well, I will communicate what you said. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Kneupper: I think . . . as soon as I . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . all human society. It is not a sectarian movement. Dr. Kneupper: Well, I'm very glad I had the chance to meet you, to learn . . . because when you meet . . . when you hear things second source . . . secondary source, it's not like . . . Prabhupāda: Do you think our presentation is all right? Dr. Kneupper: Yes. It's very fine. And I'll try to help the people . . . my mother is from Texas. My family lives there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Kneupper: And I'll try to help them understand better what the situation is. So . . . Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (break) (end) Conversation -- November 10, 1976, Vrndavana (partially recorded) Prabhupāda: . . . still in the jungle. And they show the picture, Darwin's theory . . . Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Stoning animals. Hari-śauri: Prehistoric man. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Prehistoric man. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So now civilization is not stoning the animal. "I have up*-to-date slaughterhouse." This is their civilization. Hari-śauri: Killing in big slaughterhouse. Prabhupāda: They remain the same thing, the animal eaters, but the process has changed. Process changed. Instead of stoning, in big, big cities haan, aur . . . (yes, and . . .) (aside) Ah. All right . . . you stand here, open up to the slaughterhouse, butcher. This is going on. Your standard remains the same. Hari-śauri: Yeah, doing the same thing. *Prabhupāda: Simply the, what is called, operation is changed. That is civilization. They have taken this is standard also in India. There was lamp, and the same lamp, now it is electricity, electric power. This is their civilization. There was some car, horse carriage, horse*-drawn carriage or cow-drawn carriage. Now you have a car. Is it not? Hari-śauri: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They do not know what is civilization. This is actual fact. They do not know what is civilization. This is civilization, huh? Brāhmaṇa . And they will think that, "What is this nonsense, to worship a brāhmaṇa , to give food to the brāhmaṇa*-bhojana ?" They have manufactured, "Why brāhmaṇa-bhojana ? There is . . . (indistinct) . . . they're daridra-nārāyaṇa ." (end) Conversation -- November 11, 1976, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: So I saw that one, that Mr. Maidan, he has got so many boxes all down his room. So I ask him, "What are these?" "No, these are different cinema house collection. The ticket, half of the ticket, is put into this box before entering. So I count this slip. Then I can understand what is the income. That's all. Let them do whatever they . . ." So I am simply asking, "How many books they are selling?" (laughter) If the sale is going on, "All right, that's all right. Let them do whatever they like." The books are printed and distributed? That is all right. Then other things, you do whatever you like. Never ask. Where is Arundhatī? Hari-śauri: Probably still upstairs. Prabhupāda: Ask her to make that bitter melon separately in little quantity. Hari-śauri: Just fried or . . . Prabhupāda: No, boil and then fried. Make it soft. So any letter? All right. (break) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Antardhyāna: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Everyone is going to die. Who is going to live? Who is here? Can you show me anyone who is going to live? Can you show me? Antardhyāna: No, everybody's going to die. Prabhupāda: So today or tomorrow, everyone will die. So where is the anxiety? Die or not die, tomorrow or today, but one should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Why one should be depressed? And everyone is going to die. I am going to die tomorrow, he is going to die day after tomorrow, he . . . everyone will have to die. Who will live here? So what is the anxiety? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, she'll die here . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Nobody will live. Don't be anxiety. That's all. Anyone who has come to this material world will die. One is going to die today; another is going to die tomorrow. It is a question of first and second, but everyone will die. So before death one should be complete in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success of life. Antardhyāna: But if one . . . Prabhupāda: The tree is standing for thousands of years. So what is the use of living like that? A tree cannot chant Hare Kṛṣṇa but lives for thousands of years. Do you think that kind of living is very worthy, standing in one place, cannot move even, and what to speak of chanting? So you have got the chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Utilize that. Don't be anxious that, "I am going to die." Who is going to live? Why don't you understand that? Nobody is going to live. So before death one should be complete in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success. Manīṣā: (Antardhyāna's young daughter, terminally ill) But if one is not, Śrīla Prabhupāda, what will happen? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: If one is not complete in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness then what will happen? Prabhupāda: She will get again birth in a human body. That is guaranteed so that he'll get again chance of chanting. That is also great gain. Ordinary person, he does not know what body he is going to get next body. But a person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, chanting, he is guaranteed. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe ( BG 6.41). He is guaranteed to take birth as human being in a very sacred family like brāhmaṇa or very rich family. (pause) So I have to go. Manīṣā: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is going to live here. Everyone is going to die. Before death, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Manīṣā: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't be worried. Antardhyāna: She is worried, Prabhupāda, about . . . Prabhupāda: What is the worry? I have already said everyone is going to die. Antardhyāna: She is worried about seeing the Yamadūtas. This is what she is worried about. Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, always think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Manīṣā: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: This is our business. The cats and dogs cannot do this. That is the advantage of human form of body. Antardhyāna: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Manīṣā: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Manīṣā: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- November 13, 1976, Vrndavana *Prabhupāda: . . . education, devotion, activities. Who can take more care than the father and the mother? So you combine together, make a batch of good character, ideal character in the whole world. There is no ideal character. Everyone is drunkard and meat*-eater or woman-hunter. What is the civilization? Hog civilization. (break) . . . civilization. Work hard, get some money, and spend it for intoxication, illicit sex. This is civilization. Is it not? They have no idea how to make civilized. Mahāvīra: I was hearing that before I left England there was some trouble in Scotland over the rules about the bars and drinking. And now they want to make a rule, a law, that the children can be allowed into the bars under their parents' . . . they make it a big social . . . Prabhupāda: They allow the children sit down. They take soda water, and the father, mother drinking. I have seen it. They are learning from the father and mother from the begin . . . Hari-śauri: My father used to . . . every Sunday they used to go to the pub, and then for Sunday afternoon, as a special treat, they would all get . . . we'd be given a glass of beer. Prabhupāda: Just see. Father, mother take . . . because they think it is civilization. Elderly boys, the father, mother tell, "What is the wrong, illicit sex? Take woman, take car. Enjoy life." I have seen it. They know, "This is life. Why . . .?" Therefore they say: "Brainwash. This Swāmījī is controlling their minds and brainwash." That is their charge. (pause) Prabhupāda: Wash, ne. The brain should be operated, surgical, to take out all the rubbish things from the . . . it is called membrane? Pradyumna: Cerebrum? Prabhupāda: Cereb? Hari-śauri: Cerebral. Prabhupāda: Cere . . . not . . . it is all gobar . Take out. (pause) Prabhupāda: (referring to prasādam distribution) Ne , make khicuṛi . Mahāvīra: Puṣpānna rice? Prabhupāda: Little, little. Mahāvīra: Always keep it simple: purīs , one, and one other thing? Prabhupāda: No, one kind. Either purī or puṣpānna or khicuṛi , like that. You cannot make. Mahāvīra: Tonight I made sabjī and purī . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is easiest, purī and sabjī Similarly, khicuṛi and sabjī , puṣpānna and chutney, like that. Temple means feeding them with prasādam . In Bombay the Sunday Feast going on? Saurabha: We don't have so much facility to feed them, because there's only the temple floor, so there's always a big crowd and we have to do two shifts. So sometimes . . . Prabhupāda: When it will be complete, more facility. Saurabha: Oh, yes, then it will be . . . everything . . . *Prabhupāda: Take prasādam , see drama, read books, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās . And if you like, you can live with us. So where is the difficulty? Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā (BS 5.37). (pause) Prabhupāda: That American politician has predicted that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, within ten years, they will capture our government." (laughs) So do it actually. (laughter) Then it will be very nice. It is not . . . simply take the people in your favor—the government is yours. That they are afraid of. The young boys, they are taking Hare Kṛṣṇa movement seriously, so the government can be changed in their favor. After all, it is democracy, you can do it. You become president; you'll become senator. In America it is possible. And if America accepts . . . what about this new president? Or . . . formerly I heard about him that he is religious man. Saurabha: His mother is . . . she was working in India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Saurabha: So she's very favorable towards India. She was some type of social worker in India. Prabhupāda: His mother? Oh. Then at least he has got some good thinking. *Saurabha: They said . . . there's a movie star in Bombay, and he is . . . he's a friend of this Carter. So Jagat*-puruṣa is going to approach him. He's a very good friend of . . . because his mother, she was working in India and she knew this family. So they have a lot of friends in India. Prabhupāda: At least let them understand the philosophy. Balavanta may see and explain the philosophy. Jagadīśa: Balavanta knows him. Pradyumna: Did Balavanta meet him? Jagadīśa: I think so. Balavanta's . . . there was one man, a black man who was running for mayor at the same time that Balavanta was, for Atlanta. And that black man dropped out of the race and supported Balavanta. Prabhupāda: He's a black man. Jagadīśa: Yes. Then later on, that man, he was appointed Lieutenant Governor under Carter. So Carter and this man are close, and through this man, Carter knows about Balavanta and the movement. Prabhupāda: You have written one letter? Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Balavanta is very intelligent boy. He can do that. (pause) Prabhupāda: Bring that spring water, little. You can type this? Jagadīśa: On your letterhead? Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one of the students is just about fifteen, and he's been initiated now for a year, and I'd like to recommend him for second initiation. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . good hope for preaching in China. I have received letter from Trivikrama Mahārāja. What she is doing, Carter's mother, here? He's in India? Jagadīśa: Not anymore. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jagadīśa: She must have been a missionary. Hari-śauri: Part of the Peace Corps or something? Jagadīśa: Oh, that's it. She worked with the Peace Corps. Prabhupāda: Peace port? Jagadīśa: Peace Corps. Prabhupāda: What is that? Jagadīśa: That's an American organization. It sends out people all over the world to help the . . . Hari-śauri: Like a social workers' organization. Mahāvīra: Like when they have earthquakes and hurricanes in countries, the Peace Corps will go there, and they will do all the nursing and doctoring and helping people get homes . . . Prabhupāda: So unless there is earthquake, they will not work. Jagadīśa: No, that's not the Peace Corps. Pradyumna: They send Peace Corps . . . Tejiyas was in Peace Corps. Tejiyas was in the Peace Corps. He was sent to India. In Telengana he was helping with agriculture. He would go to some village, underdeveloped. He would teach them how to plant nicely, fertilize, different things. Hari-śauri: He knows about that? Pradyumna: Yes, he knows all about agriculture. Hari-śauri: Why don't we send him to Hyderabad? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: He worked there for about . . . Prabhupāda: Let him go to Hyderabad. Pradyumna: He knows all about agriculture. Prabhupāda: Mm. Hari-śauri: And he speaks the language, too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: It was Kennedy's idea, the Peace Corps. Kennedy started it. They started it because many young men did not want to go in the Army, but Army was forcible. So they said: "If you go in the Peace Corps, then you don't have to go in the war corps—you don't have to go in Army." So many people took that, "Oh, we'll go in the Peace Corps. We'll go as an alternative." Prabhupāda: Good idea. Saurabha: It has lost its popularity now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Saurabha: It is not very popular now. Prabhupāda: Why? Saurabha: In fact, in India they have ordered to leave, practically. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Saurabha: They say they had some connection with the CIA. Prabhupāda: That is politics. Saurabha: Yes, but . . . *Prabhupāda: He was a politician. That you cannot blame. Politics require all these things. A politician cannot be a saintly person. That is not possible. For politics he has to do so many things. That is necessary. Just like Arjuna wanted to be a nonviolent. Immediately it was condemned by Kṛṣṇa, "What is this nonsense? You are a military man. Nonviolent?" And similarly, politician, they require all this. Businessman must deal in black market. It is inevitable. Otherwise he cannot improve. Because the world is bad, you, if you become honest, then you cannot make pros . . . cannot become prosperous. Sate sārtham samācaret. Brāhmaṇa's dealing must be very straight and honest. They are not meant for politics or business. They are for transcendental knowledge. Kṛṣṇa conscious person should be all*-inclusive. He must be a politician, he must be a Brahmin , he must be a kṣatriya , he must be a śūdra —everything, all-inclusive. Because he is transcendental. In otherwise, he is neither a Brahmin , neither a śūdra , neither a . . . yes. Nāhaṁ vipro na ca nara-patir na yatir vā (Padyāvalī 63). Neither of these. In other side he is everything. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. As Kṛṣṇa is sometimes cowherd boy, politician, sometimes dancing with, artist—He is everything, not one-sided. (pause) Prabhupāda: So all food is finished? Mahāvīra: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All vegetable also. Mahāvīra: All vegetable, all purīs . Prabhupāda: That's nice. ( japa ) (break) . . . Hindi book or English book? Mahāvīra: Hmm? Prabhupāda: You sold English book or Hindi book? Mahāvīra: Hindi magazine. Prabhupāda: Magazine only. Mahāvīra: Yes, everyone took magazines. Prabhupāda: Very good. Devotee: I think there were some other books also. I didn't check that. Prabhupāda: Something he must take. He will read, understand our philosophy. (break) . . . Carter is good. Saurabha: Yes. I got a letter from Dharmādhyakṣa up in Surat two months ago. He was invited to the White House after our . . . he had an exhibition at Vancouver, that Habitat. So it was a world conference of solution to life, living. So he was invited. He met some of the officials there. He was invited to Washington, but he had to wait for Carter to become the President, because then it would be fifty percent more favorable because they have a relationship. And there these people . . . they . . . he said there's a great chance they will help us in India. So he is going to go there and speak with the . . . Prabhupāda: In India. Saurabha: No, Washington, D.C. That's in America. They invited one of our devotees there to discuss this Māyāpur and all this social type of . . . Pradyumna: Dharmādhyakṣa. Saurabha: Dharmādhyakṣa. He's writing for that Back to Godhead magazine. He worked with Gurudāsa together. Prabhupāda: His article, one is there? Hari-śauri: Yes, "Simple Living, High Thinking." You saw that. Prabhupāda: So he met him. Saurabha: He met . . . not Carter. He met the government officials who were representing the United States Government at that exhibition, and they were very favorable. They were one of the most favorable, he said, the United States. Prabhupāda: Yes, our "Plain living, high thinking" is very nice idea. Hari-śauri: Actually, it's the only practical solution. Jagadīśa: Mr. Carter is a farmer, peanut farmer. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jagadīśa: That's how he gained his money. Saurabha: He's the biggest peanut farmer in America. (laughs) Pradyumna: He started out in the military. He was in the Navy. Then afterwards . . . his father had a peanut farm, and then his father became sick, so then he gave up his Navy thing. He came back to take care of the family. Then he began that peanut business. Now he doesn't have to do it any more because now he has made millions. I think he's very . . . he is wealthy man, very wealthy. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . capture American government. Then all world will follow. As they are known as Communist, we should be known as Hare Kṛṣṇas. We are already known as such, Hare Kṛṣṇas. Keep that name. People at least chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jagadīśa: Hare Kṛṣṇa Party. Prabhupāda: This is already well advertised all over the world. So keep this name, Hare Kṛṣṇas. "Vote for Hare Kṛṣṇas." Anywhere you live, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (yawns) All right, you can go. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Conversation A -- November 14, 1976, Vrndavana Tejiyas: M. Channa Reddy. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tejiyas: M. Channa Reddy. Prabhupāda: Why? Tejiyas: About getting letters, this letter for the court case in America. Prabhupāda: Court case? Oh. Tejiyas: He had given us nice questioning, and some from our Members, who are members of Parliament and other persons like M. Channa Reddy himself. He said that he would approach the External Affairs Minister and ask him that . . . the External Affairs Minister, he can make some sort of protest, either official or unofficial, about this type of dealings that are going on. Prabhupāda: So he has not given anything, writing. Tejiyas: No, but what he said . . . he said that he is the head of the state of U.P . . . so he said if he gives a protest to the American government directly, that "This is not . . ." Prabhupāda: There is no question of protest that . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine movement. Tejiyas: I had gotten a letter from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa that he also wanted some letter in the form of protest. Prabhupāda: Protest? Why this nonsense suggestion is done? These are rascal things. You have no experience, and you do something which is . . . Tejiyas: I asked the governor to give a letter of . . . Prabhupāda: Why did you approach the governor without asking me? You cannot make the governor so cheap thing that you will go always and ask something. Unnecessarily spend money and waste time. Tejiyas: I met him in Delhi. Prabhupāda: He was there? Tejiyas: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But how governor can protest? Tejiyas: What he suggested in this case . . . *Prabhupāda: He will suggest hundreds of things, but he cannot protest personally. That is not . . . what is the court case? That we have to place before the court, that "This is genuine cultural or religious movement." We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we are trying to spread. This is genuine, the simple thing. We have not manufactured anything, Transcendental Meditation or like that. That is not our business. We are presenting simply what is stated there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If somebody said that "Bible is not genuine," will it be accepted? Thousands and thousands are claiming to be Christian on the basis of . . . similarly, millions and millions of people in India, they know Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā . How it is not genuine? That we have to prove, that's all. It's not that . . . repeatedly we are speaking that what Kṛṣṇa has said, that is perfect. That's all. This is our business. Who will object to that? You could not present to the governor that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . anyone can say, "Yes, it is based on Bhagavad-gītā . It is genuine." Any Indian can say. You have to take that to present in the court. If from official it is . . . how the official can deny it? It is genuine. Now, about this sewer line, after all . . . (end) Conversation -- November 15, 1976, Vrndavana *Prabhupāda: . . . punishment, Kali*-yuga. But this is proper punishment. Because the public also, they’re not anxious to become God conscious. Hari Śauri: No. They’re anxious to avoid it. There's a few, but not many. Prabhupāda: So they must be punished, with such rogues and thieves. That is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* . It is nature's punishment. (end) Conversation -- November 18, 1976, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: And this paper should be carried to Pradyumna. (break) . . . predicted it? They are not going to do all this protest against Transcendental Meditation. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: That means here they are feeling the weight. You see? These protests, this combination, this endeavor to collapse our . . . that means they are feeling more weight. And what is this movement, Transcendent . . .? They never formed against any case, anything, Transcendental . . . they know that is farce. There are so many other groups: Yogi Bhajan, Transcendental Meditation and . . . what is he? Guru baba . . .? Hari-śauri: Guru Maharaji. Prabhupāda: Guru Maharaja. So many. Ramakrishna is not very prominent. Sai Baba. (aside) Little, little, everyone. Who asked for them? Aurobindo. Even Aurobindo. Who will protest against Aurobindo? Aurobindo has got some influence in the Western . . . Jagadīśa: Not so much. Hari-śauri: I never heard of him before. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: (laughs) I never heard of Aurobindo. If someone is interested in Eastern philosophy, generally they read books about Aurobindo and stuff like that, because up till now that's been the only literature that's been available in the West. Prabhupāda: Aurobindo? Hari-śauri: Yes. People like that. Prabhupāda: And now it is worthless. Hari-śauri: Now it's finished. Jagadīśa: There's one other movement, called the Moonies. Prabhupāda: Moonies. Jagadīśa: Moonies. That's been founded by Reverend Sun Myung Moon. Hari-śauri: That Korean man, that Korean businessman. Prabhupāda: Oh. But that is also not . . . Hari-śauri: They're big in the States. They're very big in the States. Jagadīśa: He wants to take over the world. He publicly says so. He claims to be organizing the world . . . Prabhupāda: That . . . (break) Hari-śauri: He says that Jesus never carried out what he intended to do . . . Prabhupāda: "I am doing." Hari-śauri: So he's going to come and do it. Prabhupāda: So that is capturing the sentiment. There is no philosophy. And who cares for Jesus? First of all they must care for Jesus. So he's . . . he has got any books? Jagadīśa: I don't think so. Maybe some pamphlets. Hari-śauri: No one's got any literature like yours. At the most, they can produce a few pamphlets. They can't even produce one volume the size of the Bhāgavatam , what to speak of eighty. And if they could, no one would read them anyway. Prabhupāda: No, on the whole there is now attempt to stop this movement. *(break) . . . but in . . . we have made so many court cases. Now, only loss we are feeling now—in some airports they have stopped our book*-selling. So formerly also they were stopped and again revived. Hari-śauri: Legally we haven't been stopped in any airport, I don't think. Prabhupāda: Legally we have been stopped? Jagadīśa: In Los Angeles, in Dallas and Atlanta. Prabhupāda: Legally? Hari-śauri: But that's only temporarily, I think. Prabhupāda: What is the . . .? Jagadīśa: It's a constant struggle. Prabhupāda: Struggle must be there. You cannot stop it. Jagadīśa: In Montreal for about two years . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa since His birth struggled. (laughs) Jagadīśa: We had harassment from the police in Montreal for two years. Sometimes they even beat up the devotees. They have put them into jail . . . Prabhupāda: They have beaten even our book sellers in airports. Hari-śauri: Chicago. Jagadīśa: And the police mistreat the devotees. But still, the devotees continue, and now in Montreal there's no trouble. Prabhupāda: They crucified Jesus, what to speak of devotees. Prahlāda Mahārāja was persecuted. Haridāsa Ṭhākura. I think I shall not go to Europe, America, for some time. (laughter) Hari-śauri: Not unless this gets cleared up. Prabhupāda: Because it is being discussed about me. They say: "Old man is behind this movement." Hari-śauri: Even in Australia now they're having the same thing, kidnapping and everything. It's everywhere. Prabhupāda: That means they're feeling the weight. It is spreading. Hari-śauri: Yeah. (pause) Prabhupāda: That's all. (end) Conversation -- November 20, 1976, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: . . . (Sanskrit) Who is coming back again, the body this time, that's all. (pause) Akṣayānanda: Kṛṣṇa will also increase? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: The ability to remember Kṛṣṇa, that will also increase? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, if the brain is clear—it is not filled up with rubbish cow dung—then Kṛṣṇa consciousness easy. Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means there is no more material consciousness. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktam ( CC Madhya 19.170). Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). That is required. And material existence we have got so many ambitions, thoughts, obligations—so many things. Bṛthā . *Sarva*-dharmān : everything give up. That is India's Vedic civilization. They are not concerned with the material advancement. Simple life. That's all. And our present leaders, they are thinking that, "Brainwashed." They are not deeply thinking, "Why our great sages and ācāryas recommended this life, not the skyscraper life? Why? They were not less intelligent." They are not thinking in that way. They are thinking that, "Because we neglected the skyscraper thoughts, we are so backward." At least this rascal Nehru was thinking like that, "So finish this." The Russia is . . . what is called? Opiate? Akṣayānanda: Opiate of the people. *Prabhupāda: Brainwashed. These things are accepted like that, "It has no value, simply some prejudice and superstition, and they are thinking like that, and they are spoiling their material side of life." This is their idea. "What is this? No meat*-eating?" (knock on the door as devotee enters with prasādam ) That little dāl, dāliya, bās. Pālikā: Nothing else? Prabhupāda: Huh? Pālikā: Nothing else? *Prabhupāda: No. If I take anything else it becomes overburdened. Better take little less, just to satisfy that I am not starving. (laughter) Better to starve. That is better. But we are habituated, so better give some consolance, "No, no, you are not starving." Otherwise, starving is better. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . (pause) Prabhupāda: So they were glad that I am coming? Akṣayānanda: Oh, yes. He was happy. And she was also happy. Prabhupāda: Who? Akṣayānanda: Gosāi Mā. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, she was very kind upon me. Akṣayānanda: Yes, they were very happy. *Hari-śauri: How long is it since you've been to the Rādhā*-Dāmodara? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: When did you last go? Prabhupāda: Last? Maybe 1972. *Hari-śauri: About four years. What about that Keśī*-ghāṭa? Akṣayānanda: I didn't have time to find out. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Hari-śauri: Whereabouts, exactly, is that place at Keśī*-ghāṭa? Prabhupāda: Oh. (chuckles) We can go some day. Akṣayānanda: I think I met somebody from there. Prabhupāda: Oh, his daughter came there. Akṣayānanda: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Daughter or granddaughter. Akṣayānanda: Something like that, yes. He was talking about. *Prabhupāda: When I first came in Vṛndāvana I stayed in the Keśī*-ghāṭa. That is very palatial building. My room was as big as this. Yes, as big. Plus one side room, plus one entrance room. I was paying fifteen rupees. And I could see whole Vṛndāvana, Yamunā, from the top my house. It was very nice, very palatial. Hari-śauri: That's in the big building on the . . . right on the side of the ghāṭa ? Prabhupāda: Which gate? *Hari-śauri: That's in the big building right on the side of Keśī*-ghāṭa? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: No? Prabhupāda: No. There is a big building, Bharat Maharaja, yes, Bharatpur, just by the side of that house. It is in the corner. The door is in the corner. The road is going this way in the corner. It is stone. Face is stone. Good building, but . . . (break) . . . in thought of Kṛṣṇa, outside cleaning by oil and soap. Soap. Bāhyābhyantara-śuciḥ . This is quite comfortable, not very chilly, within this room. Hari-śauri: Yes, this retains the heat nicely. *Prabhupāda: People are so misled. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to change this body. There is no preparation. "As sure as death." Death will take place, and you have to accept another body. Who understands this philosophy? Nobody. They are so dull-headed. This body finished, everything finished. Bās . All big, big leaders, scholars, they say. One gentleman, his name is . . . he was Rabindranath Tagore's brother, artist. So in a meeting he was saying: "We are so fool. Thinking of next life, next life, we are spoiling this life." He said like that, long ago when we were children, young men, about eighteen years, twenty years. So I remember distinctly, he is saying in the meeting that, "Simply thinking of next life, we are spoiling this life." He said. That was his explanation. So at that time we were young boys, "Yes, why we should think of, so much of next life?" Of course, I was not very much convinced, but naturally . . . I think his name Aurobindo Tagore, like that. Rabindranath Tagore. He is good artist. Artist means latest fashion: like this, like that, like that. He was considered to be latest artist. And his view is that. I talked with Professor Kotovsky. He said: "Swāmījī, after finishing this body everything is finished." Communist. This is the cent per cent idea. The so-called scientists, they are thinking by chemical evolution the body has come in existence. These things are discussed in Bhagavad-gītā . By accident, if it is a combination of chemicals, that means the bodily existence was not before. It has come in by accident, combination. "So why, Arjuna, you are lamenting for the body which was not in existence, and it will not exist after? So why you are so much anxious for the middle portion?" Good reasoning. The body was not in existence. That is the general . . . and as soon as you finish, there is no more existence. So via media, between the manifestation and nonmanifestation, in the middle there is some manifesta . . . why you are so much absorbed in that part? Therefore the Europeans, Americans, they bring in the charges "brainwash." "A brainwash movement. It has no actual value. Simply an artificial way of pushing the idea in the brain. And they have to give up. These children are spoiled. They have given up meat-eating and illicit sex. Their life is spoiled," and so on, so on. *So their theory is not without background. There is a background philosophy. And for Western countries, this is a completely new idea. Therefore they are charging "Brainwash." They are not to be blamed, because they are, I mean to say, raised in that ideas. Hmm? Is it not? Yes. "So this is simply brainwash movement. It has no factual standing." Even our country, what to speak of Western countries. Where the spiritual civilization has a strong background, they are also not believing. Nobody believes Kṛṣṇa is God, even big, big leaders, what to speak of ordinary men. Especially the so*-called educated men. "Bring money anyhow and enjoy life." Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). And for money they are doing everything: black money, white money, yellow money, this money. (laughs) "Bring money and enjoy. Bās . This is life. Why this nonsense Kṛṣṇa consciousness? No this, no this, no this. Ninety-nine percent 'no' and one percent 'yes.' What is the value of this movement?" Is it not? Our life is ninety-nine per cent "no." No air even. (laughs) (laughter) So what to speak of other thing. It is very difficult. Therefore in the beginning I was hopeless, that "Who will hear this movement? Simply 'no.' " And especially in this country, in Europe. So dull brain. Hmm. (break) (end) Conversation -- November 24, 1976, Vrndavana Mahāvīra: . . . Spanish and Portuguese word, Christo. Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa? Mahāvīra: Christo is also the Spanish and Portuguese word for Christ. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning? Mahāvīra: Christ. Prabhupāda: Christ. Just see. So write article on this. Mahāvīra: "Krishnian." Prabhupāda: Wherefrom this Christo came. The Greek word. And the Greek got from India, Kṛṣṇa . This is the history. Christian means Krishnian, godly. And Christo , so far I know, the Greek meaning is "decorated," "love." That indicates to Kṛṣṇa. If there is some scholar, he can find out that Christian means Krishnian originally. (reads from Mike Robinson interview in BTG ) "How the soul transmigrates? The process is very subtle. The spirit soul is invisible to our material eye. It is atomic in size. After the destruction of the gross body, which is made up of the senses, blood, bone, fat and so forth, the subtle body of mind, intelligence and ego goes on working. So at the time of death this subtle body carries the small spirit soul to another gross body. The process is just like air carrying a fragrance. Nobody can see where this rose fragrance is coming from, but we know that it is being carried by the air. You cannot see how, but it is being done. Similarly, the process of transmigration of the soul is very subtle. According to the conditions of the mind at the time of death, the minute spirit soul enters into the womb of a particular mother through the semina of father. And when the soul develops a particular type of body given by the mother, it may be a human being, it may be cat, a dog or anything." So it is brainwash? Hmm? Mahāvīra: But if it was heard by them, they would accept it, but because there are so many cheaters and rascals, that it's all been . . . they're so afraid of all of it, because there's been so much cheating and different philosophies and gurus and false gurus and that. Prabhupāda: Tumahare yahan sab hota hai. (Everything is done at your place.) . . . (indistinct) . . . now . . . Aiye. (Come). So far fix up, you should take paper. Who is in charge of which subject, I want to know. (devotees look for paper) Aap thoda sanksrit sikhiye na. (Why could you not learn a little Sanskrit.) That Prem Yogi can teach you very nice. And you and Prem Yogi can teach these boys Sanskrit. Mr. Saxena: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is not difficult at all. Anyone who knows Hindi, he knows half Sanskrit. Indian language, any Indian language, he knows half Sanskrit already. Half has to be completed. Because Indian language is directly from Sanskrit. So what are the charges you were working? Write each name and charge. Is there any charge to each man? Mahāvīra: Yes. Prabhupāda: So write that. (indistinct background conversations as devotees make notes) (pause) Prabhupāda: This article, if it is presented, the whole case, it is lost . . . Hari-śauri: Most of this magazine is . . . somehow or other, in all the articles there's something about how the chanting is actually producing greater intelligence, clearing the mind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Akṣayānanda: (making notes on who does what) Books and devotees. Prabhupāda: This issue is very important. There's so many evidences. (break) Who are present here . . . Akṣayānanda: Who are present here. Prabhupāda: . . . their charges, including their . . . write the names and the work in which department he's in charge. That I want to know. Mahāvīra: Would you also like to know the . . . 'cause some of them are not in charge of certain departments, but they work within a department. Prabhupāda: Oh. He is assistant. Mahāvīra: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then assistant name also the different, these departments. One man in charge, and he may have several assistants. That is different thing. (pause) Prabhupāda: Robinson could not protest any . . . in any of my statement. (laughs) He had to admit. Hari-śauri: Yeah. I told you he was very interested in the philosophy. He was asking some very good questions. Prabhupāda: Still he's asking, "Are you saying that we were something else before this life?" I said, "Yes." (laughter) (break) . . . issue will help 99% about this controversy, brainwashing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I haven't read it completely, but . . . Prabhupāda: And there are pictures of chanting. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's a very good . . . this editorial. Prabhupāda: This is new copy. So is it finished now? (break) Akṣayānanda: (giving indistinct devotee names) Practical. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Finished. So what is your charge? Hari-śauri: Your including . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Mahāvīra: Well, restaurant, shop, kitchen, the kitchen godown. Prabhupāda: Kitchen godown? Mahāvīra: Supplies. Prabhupāda: Oh, supplies. So what is the difficulty? The other day you complained some difficulty. So what is the difficulty? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Nothing. Nothing excepting my jaundice. Prabhupāda: Then? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Everything is all right. Prabhupāda: No, you said there is some difficulty. All of you came there on behalf . . . *Sarva*-bhāvana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is that difficulty? You are in charge of this department. That's right? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty in discharging your duty? Now you cannot say? What is that? All of you said there is difficulty. *Sarva*-bhāvana: It doesn't concern directly what we have as charges. Prabhupāda: So what is that difficulty? What is your difficulty? That I must know. *Sarva*-bhāvana: If some of the boys were to get along with the authorities . . . Prabhupāda: Loan? Hari-śauri: Along. Prabhupāda: Oh, along, authori . . . so that I want to discuss with authorities here. Our first authority is Akṣayānanda. So what is the difficulty you get along with? What is the difficulty? You must discuss. Otherwise how it can be resolved? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Personally interrogate with me . . . personally consulting me, I have had no difficulty so far. But there have been other . . . Prabhupāda: Who had difficulty? You came, so many. What is your difficulty? Now explain what you are in charge? *Indian devotee: I am the reception in*-charge. He is on the reception. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's the guesthouse receptionist, that's all, at the moment. Prabhupāda: Guesthouse reception? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is your difficulty with the authority? Indian devotee: Regarding this guesthouse, everything is okay, but things, little things, these equipments and . . . (indistinct) . . . all these things . . . Prabhupāda: Help to understand. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I am understanding. He is saying that everything is all right, but he needs equipment sometimes. So if they need equipment the procedure is that it has to be . . . Prabhupāda: Equipment? What is that equipment? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like plates or . . . Indian devotee: These bedding materials, and these mans for managing these . . . sweepers and all. We are running short of mans. Of course, we are trying to get short of man . . . Akṣayānanda: Short of men. Cleaners. Indian devotee: Cleaners and these mans . . . Prabhupāda: You have got cleaners. Akṣayānanda: (indistinct) . . . coming. Prabhupāda: Eh? Akṣayānanda: Well, we had sufficient, but they are unreliable, paid men, so we're getting new men. But I don't think that's the difficulty with the management. Prabhupāda: So you solve this difficulty. You answer. He has got difficulty, you answer him. So he has got difficulty. Akṣayānanda: Difficulty is because we lost the chaukīdār . The cleaner had to become a chaukīdār but now you have a new chaukīdār , so your cleaner is back? Indian devotee: Yes, today he is working. Akṣayānanda: And other men are coming, is it not? Indian devotee: Ah, yes, coming. Prabhupāda: So is there difficulty now? Indian devotee: No, it is coming now. There are no difficulties. Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty, I do not find out. You told him, and that is already done. And you also said there is no difficulty, so why the other day you all came and there was difficulty? *Sarva*-bhāvana: Well, it was not my . . . directly my difficulty, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Sarva*-bhāvana: They have been small situations where other Indian devotees, closer to him, came to me with their problems. Prabhupāda: So all Indians are here. Now say what is the difficulty. *Sarva*-bhāvana: Well, some things like changing of our duties, changing of our services. Prabhupāda: So why you change? Consult. *Sarva*-bhāvana: Well, there won't be any change, Prabhupāda. And they were not satisfied with that change, so . . . and they wanted to remain in that particular service. Prabhupāda: Change is no rectification. If somebody is not working he should be trained up. Changing is another . . . if he is a fool, another fool will come. What will be? You see? Change, of course, sometimes required, but if you constantly change, the man is not trained up. That practice is not good. If somebody is not doing satisfactorily, then he should be trained up that "You should like this." And if you immediately change another, that, that is not actually solution because all our workers, they are not accustomed to certain type of duty. They are devotee, after all. So still, we have to do something, so one man requires little training. But whatever capacity he has got, he is posted. So immediate change, that is not very good management. Let him be reformed, and whatever inability he has got, he should be instructed and he should be . . . and this, all of a sudden change, simply go on changing, nobody . . . "Rolling stone never gathers moss." A "rolling stone" policy is not good. So what is the difficulty? Keep the stone in a place and it will gather moss. And if you simply roll, it will never gather moss. If the man who has committed mistake, he should be reformed. He should be instructed. Sometimes I show your cleaners by myself, "Do like this." Change them, immediate change, that is not good management, and to make him competent in that way, that is management. So this policy should be followed, not that because he has done something not correctly he should be changed immediately. That will not help. Now discuss this point. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually we can solve it ourselves. I don't know why they came to you in the first place, because our whole business is to relieve you of all problems. Prabhupāda: Yes but . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not think that if we are Indians we can have a special access to you. Prabhupāda: So do, do it. What is that? Ta . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we can do it outside instead of troubling you. I mean, we can sit down . . . actually, I've already told them since I've been here yesterday that whatever problems they have, we can solve it ourselves. Prabhupāda: So go and settle up in that lungi. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can settle it ourselves instead of bringing it to Prabhupāda. Jaya Srila Prabhupada. Akṣayānanda: I don't think there's any great difficulty, Prabhupāda. Mahāvīra: Actually, we've been speaking the last few days, and these problems can be solved. Prabhupāda: No, it is Kṛṣṇa's service. Everyone is offering voluntary service. So not that anyone is paid, and if he cannot, dismiss or . . . yes. This bureaucracy is not . . . train him. Train him. If he does not know, train him. But things must be done very nicely by cooperation. That is wanted. Everyone should remember that we are serving Kṛṣṇa, and everyone should remember, "The other person is serving Kṛṣṇa. And because he is serving Kṛṣṇa, he is not my servant; he is my master." That should be always in view. Therefore we address, " prabhu ": "You are my master." We never address, "You are my servant." We are trained up to say my brother, that " prabhu ," "such and such prabhu ." Prabhu means master. Nobody think himself that he is master. He should always think that everyone is his master because he's serving the master. This is our philosophy. So in this way . . . now you have got good arrangement and they're all intelligent persons, young persons. Akṣayānanda: All good people are here. Prabhupāda: So kindly settle up and do nice things. That I want to see. That's all. He is also present. At that time he was not present. So go and . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: You should always remember that you are helping me. Without your help I cannot do anything. So you do not be disturbed. Try to help me. That is my request. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupāda: Aap toh Hindi jaanti hai, thoda sanskrit sikh lijiye. (You already know Hindi, now learn Sanskrit well.) (end) Conversation -- November 25, 1976, Vrndavana *Prabhupāda: At least once in a month you must be shaven*-headed. Akṣayānanda: Actually, we usually shave more. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Akṣayānanda: We usually shave more than once a month. Two weeks. 'Cause after even two weeks it looks a little dirty. Hari-śauri: We can get very good wigs. *Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no need. It is simply . . . that is also mental concoction. Nowadays, if you go with coat*-pant, shaven headed, nobody will criticize you. It has become a practi . . . Russians, they used . . . that Krushchev I have seen. Bald head. Hari-śauri: Yes, bald head. Prabhupāda: And so many. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't have a śikhā , that's all. Prabhupāda: Oh? It is practice only. Akṣayānanda: No, it's nice. We shouldn't be afraid to do that. Then it will become more and more accepted. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's so timely. Once we start diverting, like on these records . . . I was thinking after you told me not to do it. We started, now there's so many. Everyone's into records. Everyone wants to diversify into so many other areas. There's no end to it. *Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you were in Los Angeles you heard that new record by Kṛṣṇa*-kānti. *Hari-śauri: This pop music? This tape that you just got of that Western*-style music. Jagadīśa: Apparently in a new BBT newsletter which just came yesterday afternoon there's a statement by Rāmeśvara that you were asked whether this record should be played in the temples, and you said, "Why not in the temples?" Hari-śauri thought that you said "Not in the temples"; Rāmeśvara said . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. Not in the temple. I . . . I want . . . if the wordings are all right, so there is no . . . if there is no mistake in the set*-up of the wording, the change of musical tune, that is not harmful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This one tape that Alex has made, he gave me a copy in Bombay to listen. I just played it . . . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, this vibration, you can make in different tune. We are already doing that. Hari-śauri: But we're talking about these songs that they are writing. Jagadīśa: Philosophy songs. Hari-śauri: Like this, er . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to see the words. Hari-śauri: Like the "Caterpillar had a change of heart." Jagadīśa: If the words are all right, then they can be played? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because no one can hear the words. It's the pop music that people hear. Akṣayānanda: Actually the words are just like modern pop songs. You can't tell really what it means. I suggested to those people . . . I said: "Why don't you put to music to Prabhupāda's books? Take the words straight from your . . ." Hari-śauri: No, Prabhupāda's approved this method for attracting karmīs . Akṣayānanda: Yes, not for devotees. Hari-śauri: But the thing is, once you become a devotee, we don't need . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: That kind of music also reminds us of past bad activities, sinful activities. Hari-śauri: The question is whether should it be played in the temple or not? Prabhupāda: Temple may not be played. What is use of playing in the temple? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I know from practical experience, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that . . . I just played this Alex's record. It's all current pop music with English philosophy wording. (indistinct comments between devotees) And all the brahmacārīs were so agitated, they came to my room to listen and they were, you know, really making fun of it like it was a pop . . . Akṣayānanda: Because that style of music, it reminds us of the nightclubs or whatever it might be. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said it is better not to make these records. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just your records and paramparā records should be played, I think. There are so many tapes of your records. Hari-śauri: Yeah, well this style that they are doing now, they explain that they wanted that because then that way, they'll be able get them played on the radio. Otherwise they won't play bhajanas or anything on the radio. But there's a distinction between that kind of music and pure Kṛṣṇa consciousness music. Even though the words indicate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, most of the songs are written in such a way that it's like it's indirect. It's not directly Kṛṣṇa. It's indirect. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But you can't hear the words. Prabhupāda: Yes, indirect. Hari-śauri: They give this thing, "The caterpillar changed his mind," like that. It's like it provokes some speculation. Prabhupāda: No, indirect for gross outsiders, not for us. Therefore they should not be played in the temple. Gross outsider only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So, Prabhupāda, the New York temple has just produced a ballet on *Rāmāyaṇa* , and one boy, Vijayadeva, just came back and he brought a slideshow on that ballet. Prabhupāda: Ballet? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They did a ballet, the New York theater, Sudāmā Swami and his group. But that ballet is accompanied by a classical Western record in background. It's a twenty med . . . they have just played the whole record as background music. And I know, we showed it in Bombay, and none of the devotees liked it. They actually told me to stop that show because they said it's all māyā . Everyone saw it, Girirāja and . . . Prabhupāda: So they should be restricted. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, they're playing . . . serious devotees don't like. Like Girirāja walked out of the show, and he told me to stop it. Prabhupāda: So why it was played, this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They just brought it from New York, so we didn't know what it contained. But they are doing this in other centers. (end) Conversation -- December 3, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: . . . be proper rainfall. And if there is proper rainfall, then you get sufficient food grains; *not only food grains, other things also. Sarva*-dughā mahī, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī ( SB 1.10.4). From the earth you can get all the necessities of life. Actually you are getting food grains, minerals, trees, fruits, flowers, everything from the earth. Sarva-dughā, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī . This mahī , when it is soaked with proper rains, it becomes fertile. Therefore we have to depend on the rainfall. There is one verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). Parjanya means rainfall. Rainfall means it is supplying all the necessities of life. And this rainfall will be easy when there is yajña . And nobody is performing yajña , therefore nowadays rainfall is scarcity. In Europe recently I have seen, there is no rainfall, whole Europe. It is on the verge of drying everything. So this punishment will come in this Kali-yuga. There will be no rainfall, and there will be not sufficient food supply, and the government will simply levy taxes on different pleas, and people will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their hearth and home and flee away to the forest. It is stated. So therefore you must perform yajña . And that is very easy in this age. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). You cannot perform the former yajñasa by sacrifice tons of ghee and grains because you have no sufficient food grains even. But still, if you chant this saṅkīrtana , that is yajña . Therefore you must take to saṅkīrtana-yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ . It is very easy. (break) . . . the duty of human being, prāṇaiḥ , with life— arthaiḥ , with money; dhiyā , with intelligence; *and vācā , by words. If one sacrifices his life for Kṛṣṇa's cause, then it is first*-class. If he cannot sacrifice his life for Kṛṣṇa he can contribute his hard-earned money for Kṛṣṇa. If he cannot do so—if he has no money—he can give some intelligence. If he is not intelligent, then he can give some words. Just like we are doing preaching. We are preaching, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). So without any jugglery of words we present to the people that, "Here is Bhagavān," kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . So giving some words, sacrificing some words. Not that every one of us is very highly educated or very rich. Still, if we carry the words of Kṛṣṇa . . . as Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7), so we have to carry these words that, "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa." Where is the difficulty? It is authorized. Kṛṣṇa says, and we simply carry the words. So where is difficulty? So simply by carrying these words that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He wants that you surrender unto Him." So any child can carry these words. Any foolish man can carry these words. And if you do that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, then you become guru , simply by carrying these words. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Even in your village, in your home, you can say to your wife, to your children. They will accept you that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Then you become guru at home. Where is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? But people will not do that. This truth they will not say. What is the reason? Say what is the reason why they do not carry this message, simply to say everyone, whomever you meet. You are meeting daily with your wife, to your children, your friends. If you simply do this missionary work and say that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," then you become a great devotee. You become a guru . Why people do not do so? It is not very difficult task. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said that, "By My order you become a guru ." Indians especially are advised to become guru because Indians, however fallen they may be, they still have respect for Kṛṣṇa. Every home, they perform Kṛṣṇa's Janmāṣṭamī. *So therefore Indians are fortunate. They recognize Kṛṣṇa. Now, to become little more advanced, let them act as Kṛṣṇa's servant. Kṛṣṇa came to speak this truth that, "I am the Supreme." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). He appeared to speak this philosophy. And if you do the same work that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," then you are serving the mission of Kṛṣṇa, great service to Kṛṣṇa. The words for which He appeared on this earth, if you simply carry these words door to door, village to village, man to man, then you become a guru , a real guru . Not to pose yourself a guru without any knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. That is cheating. And to accept and understand Kṛṣṇa the Supreme thoroughly and preach these words that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," is the supreme success of life. What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Why don't you do that? I have to bring all these young men from Europe and America to speak to you this truth. Why our young men is not coming to speak this truth? Hmm? What is the difficulty? That means willfully they are denying the success of life. Willfully. Then what can be done? If somebody willfully commits suicide, who can save him? This is our position at the present moment. The Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, : jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu: "I have drunk poison knowingly." So if somebody knowingly drinks poison, then who can save him? So we are doing that. Without preaching the gospel of Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are drinking poison willfully. This is our position. *Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura regrets, "My Lord, I have lost or I have wasted my valuable life as human being by not accepting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu, manuṣya*-janama pāiyā: "I got this opportunity of human life, but I could not worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Therefore voluntarily, willingly, I have drunk poison." Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana, rati nā janmilo kene tāya: "This transcendental Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , it is not ordinary vibration. This vibration is coming from the spiritual world, but I have no attraction." Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man: I talked to radio. Prabhupāda: Eh? Oh, you have taken so much trouble. Prasādam , some give it to . . . jaya . A very big block of farms. What is the name of that . . .? Eh? Indian men: Bechel. *Prabhupāda: Bechel. So we want so many men to live there nicely, to eat sumptuously, and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have seen while coming from Vṛndāvana to Delhi, hundreds and thousands of young men, they are going to the factories on cycle, coming from distant place, at least twenty miles, twenty*-five miles, and it takes two hours to reach the factory, or more than that. And there he works hard eight hours and then again goes back, two hours, three hours, on cycle. I do not know what kind of rest he takes. This is life. And if we request these young men that, "You come here. You live here comfortably. You eat here sumptuously and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they will not. Just see how unfortunate they are. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). This is Kali-yuga. All bad men, unfortunate and disturbed. This is the position. They will work so hard, they'll catch daily passenger trains, Calcutta, Bombay, I have seen. They are actually hanging, and some of them are falling down, lost life, and coming from hundred miles away. But still, if you ask him that, "You come here. Live with us. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even with your family you can come . . ." We are doing that at Māyāpur. He will not. How strong sense gratification propensity is. This is position of Kali-yuga. They are making propaganda, roṭi kāpra makān (food, clothing, shelter). So we are giving, "Come on, roṭi, makān, kāpra; you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." "No. I want wine. I want meat. I want rundi." This is going on. Simply they say: " Roṭi, kāpra, makān ." But no, they want wine, woman and sense pleasure, that's all. Roṭi, kāpra, makān is not difficult. You can get. But they want something more. You see how many advertisements for selling wine in your Hyderabad. Is that roṭi, kāpra, makān? Vāsughoṣa: Even the poorest of men. Just like when we were before, when this temple wasn't here and we were chopping away at the rocks in the foundation, we were paying twenty rupees a day for those men. And then they were . . . we were told that ten rupees every day would go for wine for those same men. Ten rupees out of the twenty they would immediately spend to drink. Even poor people. So many of them. Prabhupāda: And because we were trying to stop this thing in Europe or America there is agitation, that "These people are propagating brainwash. How is that, a man who will not eat, drink? This is brainwash." Hmm. He will paying ten rupees out of twenty rupees. Eh? *Vāsughoṣa: Yes, we were told like that, that they would take their twenty rupees' pay and then they would go and spend ten rupees on alcohol, drinking, toddy. (break) I was in . . . last time at the festival in Māyāpur I was riding from Māyāpur to Calcutta. And so one man was saying that "Oh, fish, 80 paisa a kg." "How much are potatoes?" I asked. So even their hard*-earned money, so much more they spend just to eat meat, to enjoy their senses. It is not even . . . it doesn't make sense in any way. *Prabhupāda: And that also, they cannot live on meat. They must have vegetable also. Without vegetable, simple meat*-eating will not help them. (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Just like a man, when he is haunted by a ghost, he speaks nonsense, he does nonsense. Similarly, when one is absorbed, overwhelmed by māyā , he speaks like that, he talks like that, he acts like that. (break) . . . scientists manufacture? They are very . . . (indistinct) . . . they are very proud of becoming scientists. Such nice flower, can anyone manufacture? And still, the rascal, they say there is no God. Hmm? What do you think? How do they say there is no God, these rascals? What is the reason? Vāsughoṣa: Actually, I think they are all misers. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vāsughoṣa: They are also misers. They want to enjoy. *Prabhupāda: No, misers, I say rascals, fools and rascals. That's all. That is their real position, mūḍha. Mūḍha . This very word is used in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mūḍha. Mūḍha means rascal, ass. Asses. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he is mūḍha , ass. He is not human being. If you are intelligent enough, by seeing this flower you must admit there is God. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Find out this verse. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam: " Mūḍha , rascals, they cannot understand that I am behind everything." (to boy) Come here. Who has manufactured this flower? Boy: God. Prabhupāda: Very good. (laughter) Thank you. He is intelligent. And the rascal will say, "There is no God." Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam . Aiyye idhar aiyye. Please come this way. That's all right. What is that verse? I am very pleased that he has immediately answered the right thing. This is intelligence. Devotee (1): Is this the one? Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya (BG 7.25)? Prabhupāda: No, it is . . . which chapter it is? Devotee (1): Seventh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Read the verse whole. *Devotee (1): Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti . . . (BG 7.25). Prabhupāda: Mām ebhyaḥ . Yes, read that. Tejiyas: "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My . . ." Prabhupāda: Now, here is intelligence. This boy has got intelligence; *therefore he can see, behind this flower there is God. He immediately answered. That is intelligence. He is not seeing God, but he's seeing God. God is not present face to face, but it doesn't matter. Just like the prime minister of our country, she may not be present here, but that does not mean that she is not there. She is there. So these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" How can you see Him? By intelligence. Just like this fan is running. The powerhouse is not here, but intelligent man will understand that there is electric powerhouse from where the electricity energy is supplied, and therefore the fan is running. By the running of the fan, one can understand that there is a big powerhouse and there is an electric engineer there who is conducting the business. That is sufficient, to see the running of the fan. That is intelligence. And if somebody says: "No, no, the fan is running automatically," that is not possible. You are experiencing every moment—as soon as the electric energy is stopped, the fan is stopped. The room is dark. So there is powerhouse behind this electric energy, and the powerhouse is being managed by one engineer. This is natural conclusion. And Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram: "Under My supervision the material nature is working." Find out this verse. Tejiyas: "This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again." Prabhupāda: Purport? Tejiyas: "It is clearly stated here that the Supreme Lord, although aloof from all the activities of the material world, remains the supreme director. The Supreme Lord is the supreme will and the background of this material manifestation." Prabhupāda: The modern scientists, their first business is to deny that Supreme. That is modern. It is a curse for the scientist if they talk of God. Amongst the scientists this is an etiquette, not to talk of God. Everything science. Means everything nonsense, passing on as scientist. Do you believe this? Devotee: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: The scientists' position denying God, do you think? Mahāṁśa: It's always changing now. They continue this . . . Vāsughoṣa: They feel great anxiety also to talk about God. Once, about three years ago, I had met one big scientist from University of Chicago. Just a chance there was one . . . my father had invited me back home for something; the scientist was there. We got in a big discussion with him and his daughter. They were just saying: "We don't see God. We have no . . . there is no evidence of God." Even logically we could show them. They still didn't want to accept. It was so obvious to them. Ultimately they couldn't say anything. Prabhupāda: What is their logic to deny God? *Vāsughoṣa: It's not logic. They don't have any logic. And ultimately, if we present our conclusions of Bhagavad*-gītā to them, they are silenced. They can't say anything. But they still refu . . . I mean, they don't accept it, but they can't deny it. Prabhupāda: That is dog's obstinacy. The dog, however you ask the dog to stop barking, it will go on barking. Dog's obstinacy. Hmm. (someone brings something) What is that? I have taken. *Tejiyas: "But in the management . . . but the management is being conducted by material nature. Kṛṣṇa also states in Bhagavad*-gītā that of all the living entities in different forms and species, 'I am the father.' The father gives seeds to the womb of the mother for the child, and similarly the Supreme Lord by His mere glance injects all the living entities into the womb of material nature, and they come out in their different forms and species, according to their last desires and activities. All these living entities, although born under the glance of the Supreme Lord, still take their different bodies according to their past deeds and desires. So the Lord is not directly attached to this material creation. He simply glances over material nature; material nature is thus activated, and everything is created immediately. Because He glances over material nature, there is undoubtedly activity on the part of the Supreme Lord, but He has nothing to do with the manifestation of the material world directly. This example is given in the smṛti: when there is a fragrant flower before someone, the fragrance is touched by the smelling power of the person, yet the smelling and the flower are detached from one another. There is a similar connection between the material world and the Supreme Personality of Godhead—actually He has nothing to do with the material world, but He creates by His glance and ordains. In summary, material nature, without the superintendence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, cannot do anything. Yet the Supreme Personality is detached from all material activities." (break) Prabhupāda: . . . ārati? Tejiyas: Seven. Prabhupāda: God is one. Others, they are . . . just like president is one; others are government servant. Similarly, God is one. There cannot be other God. Then he is not God. Indian man (1): But Kṛṣṇa says in *Gītā*, rudrāṇāṁ śaṅkaro 'smi. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Rudrāṇāṁ śaṅkaro 'smi . That means just like Śaṅkara has got some godly power. Indian man (1): Suppose if someone worships . . . they are worshiper of Śiva. Prabhupāda: But that is not God worship. That is Śiva worship. Why do you bring God worship? Indian man (1): God . . . (indistinct) . . . these are going directly to the Śiva. Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (1): No, not directly. *Prabhupāda: You can go to Lord Śiva. Yānti deva*-vratā devān (BG 9.25). *Guest: Mad*-bhakta yājino . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām . There is distinction. You purchase ticket for Delhi, you can go to Delhi. How you can go to Bombay? Indian man (1): But among the people there is a misconception. Prabhupāda: Then people are rascals. Therefore the mūḍhas they are. What value they have got? They have no value. Indian man (2): . . . (indistinct Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: That's all right. You can have respect for everyone. That is good. But it does not mean that by purchasing ticket for Delhi you go to Bombay. And it does not mean that because you do not go to Bombay you have no respect for Delhi. That is not. But if you want to go to Delhi, you have purchased a ticket for Delhi. If you want to go to Bombay you must purchase a ticket for Bombay. Why do you speak nonsensically that, "Whatever ticket I purchase, I go to Bombay"? (laughter) This is nonsense. They'll take to this nonsense theory. That is Vivekananda's theory. "Whatever you do, it is all right." Yato mata tato patha . And that is not fact. Indian man (1): These are all paths lead to the Supreme. *Prabhupāda: How? Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva*-vratā devān (BG 9.25). How, you nonsense, straightly say that everyone goes to God? This is nonsense. You can go to Śiva, you can go to Indra, Chandra . . . there are so many planets, and you'll go there. And that is reasonable. And how do you say that "Whatever ticket I purchase, I go to this, Delhi?" Vāsughoṣa: They say that all . . . they're all the same. *Prabhupāda: "They say." Therefore they are nonsense, mūḍha , rascals. They do not know what is God, what is demigod, what is Lord Śiva, what is Lord Viṣṇu or Brahmā. They do not know. If a woman says: "Oh, everyone is my husband," then she is a prostitute. That's all. A chaste woman will say: "No, there is one, my husband. That's all." That is chaste woman. And if she is liberal, if she says: "No, no, everyone is my husband," that means she is prostitute. She does not know what is value of husband. In Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ (BG 7.20): "Those who have adhered to other demigods, they have lost their intelligence," hṛta-jñānāḥ, "rascals." They'll go. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23). Because they are rascals, they prefer like that. The public opinion will be taken; *Kṛṣṇa's opinion will be . . . public is rascals. They can say all nonsense. That is not to be taken. You have to take—that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement—what Kṛṣṇa says. What do you think? Kṛṣṇa says, kāmais tais tair hṛta*-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ . *Indian man (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? But one man in Bangalore was talking. He was saying that everything there goes to Govinda, even . . . (indistinct) . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (indistinct) . . . because so many people following, they are also following. Prabhupāda: Yes. So public opinion dictates that "This property is ours." Will he give by votes? Why he'll protest on that point? Indian man (1): His point is that because everyone is telling Kṛṣṇa is Supreme, therefore you are also supreme, but what does it proof that Kṛṣṇa is Supreme? Everyone is calling as . . . Prabhupāda: So we have to meet such rascals and we have to preach. The world is full of rascals, mūḍha . What can be done? But we cannot change our preaching because the rascals are many. That is not . . . we cannot make that . . . Indian man (1): There is no medicine for mūḍhas . *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is medicine: there is beating with shoes. That is medicine. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ, argumentum baculum. You cannot mildly speak to the animals, "My dear cow, my dear dog, please do not bark. Do not go this way." No, you require lāṭhi , stick, and they will behave. Can you stop dog's barking by simply request? But you take the stick and beat it, and he will stop. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ . So there is no king. There is no kṣatriya . Therefore these rascals are talking all nonsense. There is no śāsana . This is king's duty, to see that they are acting according to śāstra . But there is no such king. So everyone is acting whimsically, whatever he likes, and the so*-called svāmīs are preaching, "No, no, whatever you like, that's all right. You can eat whatever you like. You can do whatever you like. You think yourself that you are God, that's all right." This is going on. By thinking himself that he's God, he becomes God. This is going on, so many meditations: "I am moving the sun, I am moving the moon, I am moving . . . mo-mo-mo-mo." (laughter) And rascals are following them. Indian man (1): They do not know the process of God. *Prabhupāda: I know. There is no question of individual. I know these rascals. God is so easy thing that simply by I am thinking that "I am moving the sun, I am moving the . . . mo*-mo-mo-mo," he'll . . . because the whole world is mūḍha , we cannot say that, "Yes, I am also with you. I am also one of the mūḍha ." We cannot say. The votes may be against us, but we cannot agree to that. We simply speak for Kṛṣṇa's sake. That is Kṛṣṇa. We cannot make any compromise. What do they say about this version in the Bhagavad-gītā , kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ (BG 7.20)? What do they say? What is their opinion? But don't say: "Somebody said . . ." Everyone is fool, rascal. What is the value of their words? Indian man (1): Or this one mission says, "You worship . . . your is the devatā ." . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, I know these rascals. Therefore the country's position is the godless India. They lost their culture. Vāsughoṣa: They had big propaganda that Sai Baba is God also. He was saying in the . . . these professors challenged him, so he said, "How can an ant try and understand an ocean?" He made that statement, that the Professor at Bangalore University, Vice Chancellor said that, you know, so many . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Does that mean we have to accept him? That does not mean we have to accept. (break) . . . one is against this movement because we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. (break) Indian man (1): . . . when I was talking to him, he said only . . . (indistinct) . . . we don't call it anything, but we want to. But all the movements . . . (indistinct) . . . everything. *Prabhupāda: That means prostitute. "Everyone is my husband." Prostitution. That's all. (break) . . . does not know what is duty. Duty is sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). This is duty. Kṛṣṇa never said that, "Everything is all right." He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: "Simply surrender unto Me." That is duty. They do not know what is duty. And he's manufacturing his duty. That is not duty. Duty is that which is ordered by the superior authorities, "You do this." So if he does that, that is discharge of duty. And if he manufactures his duty, that is not duty. That is concoction. So they are manufacturing duty. That is not duty. If the child manufactures a duty that "I shall play all day. This is my duty," will the parents accept it? Indian man (1): Under . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: No. But if he knows? But he does not know. That is the difficulty. That I was explaining, mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍho nābhijānāti . He does not know what is duty because he's a mūḍha. If you say: "If he knows," but "If he knows" means it is difficult to know what is duty. The mūḍhas , they cannot know what is duty. Therefore Kṛṣṇa personally says: "This is duty: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). This is duty." Devotee: Also the paramahaṁsas never speak, they say. *Prabhupāda: Paramahaṁsa may speak all nonsense, but Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all the ācāryas —Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Nimbārka, Caitanya. They are important men. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So we have to give up the instruction of ācārya and accept some rascal? That we cannot do. Ācāryopāsanam . In Bhagavad*-gītā it is recommended that you should worship the ācārya , not these rascals who talks all nonsense. Then we'll make progress. Ācāryopāsanam . Is it not? Ācāryopāsanam is there. And still in India the ācārya's paramparā system existing, sampradāya . Rāmānuja-sampradāya, Madhvācārya-sampradāya, Nimbārka, going on. Jaiyye sab arati dekhiye. (Please go and watch the arati .) (end) Conversation -- December 5, 1976, Hyderabad *Ānandamaya: . . . the greatest program in this life is birth, old age, disease and death. And Bhagavad*-gītā gives the remedy for . . . Prabhupāda: This is good. If you want to stop this repetition of birth, death, old age and disease, then you must take the way of life spoken by . . . (break) Ānandamaya: . . . seem to be . . . Prabhupāda: Nobody is in healthy condition. (devotee offers obeisances) (break) *Ānandamaya: Just like a medicine. We may understand it. For myself, I can tell. I study Bhagavad*-gītā and I understand it, but I find so much difficulty to applicate it to the life of every day because . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . everything is difficult, but . . . why "but"? (pause) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . a physician, to purchase the medicine, to drink the medicine, that is also difficult, but we have to do that. *Guest (1) (Indian man): Bhagavad*-gītā gives the way to go back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Guest (1): Bhagavad*-gītā gives the way to go back to Godhead. Otherwise one has to suffer continuously. Prabhupāda: Yes, this material world, birth after birth. One birth, suffering, then again die, again another birth, again suffering. But the people are kept in ignorance. They do not know how the soul is transmigrating. (aside) Aiye. Betiye. (Come and sit.) From . . . ask them to sit down properly. Why don't you . . . is there any seat, proper? So you . . . Ye to sub halka hai. (This is all right.) What was the topic? What was going on, the topic? Ānandamaya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning we went to this engagement. There was the inauguration of the Vivekananda Society Home, so we went there on saṅkīrtana because we were invited by them. And one svāmī spoke, and he said service to mankind was also service to God. And at the end he also said that Vivekananda used to say that for the housewife, that the cooking pot was becoming God, had become God, had become a God. Prabhupāda: And people applauded. This is foolishness. They do not know how to act. Just like if you pour water on the tree, then it is accepted that you are pouring water on the tree. But that is not the process. The process is to pour water on the root of the tree. Practically we . . . you can make an experiment. Just like here is a tree. You don't pour water on the root but pour water on the leaves. Then it will dry in due course of time. It will not be effective. But if you pour water on the root, the water will go everywhere. So the whole thing is just like a tree. God is the origin of everything. He is the root. Aham ādir hi devānām ( BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Therefore He is the root. So if you pour water in the root, then the water is distributed everywhere. But if you pour water on the leaves, on the twigs, on the fruits, it will take time and it will not be successful. *So one who is not in awareness of the laws of nature, they commit this mistake. We can say that pouring water on the leaves is also pouring water on the tree—by serving human being you can serve the Supreme Lord. But that is not the way. Another example is that if you supply food to the stomach, then the share is partaken by all the parts of the body. But if you supply food to the part of the body, it is not shared by other part of the body. They are opening hospital for men, human being, but what about the animals? They are also part and parcel of God. They are killing them. So they have no realization of God. God says, sarva*-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4). Suppose I have got several sons. If you take care of my one son and you neglect others I will not be happy, naturally. But if you take care of all my sons, then I'll be happy. For a father there is no such distinction that, "My particular son should be taken care of and other should be neglected or they should be killed." That is not father's view. So if God is the father of all living entities, if you take simply care of the human being, then what of the others? There are so many fallacies in this argument, that by taking care of the human being you worship God. There are so many fallacies. Hmm? Is it not? So you have to put this argument that, "By serving human society is to serve God, that is not fact." That may be partially, it is not complete. Ānandamaya: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, so he talked about all these things . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I cannot hear. Ānandamaya: He didn't talk once about Kṛṣṇa. He didn't mention once the name of Kṛṣṇa, and he didn't say anything about . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the root of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). So He is the root. So you pour water in the root. Just like we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. So because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, does it mean that we are not taking care of the human being? That is automatically coming. But those who are taking care of the human society only, social work, political work, they do not know even what Kṛṣṇa. Missing. That is the difference. Because we are taking of Kṛṣṇa, we have come to the human society. We are teaching them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, spiritual knowledge. That is automatically. We are feeding them, giving them prasādam . That is included. But those who are opening hospitals for human being, they are taking the poor animals to the slaughterhouse, maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. That means foolishness. Kṛṣṇa will not be happy that one son you take care by opening hospital and another son you go, you send him to the slaughterhouse. This is foolishness. Never. God will never be happy. The same example: if the father has got both children—you take care one of them and others you kill them—will the father be happy? So that is not the way of making the supreme father, God, happy. That is not the way. That is foolish way. Rather, displeasing the father. That is not a very good philosophy. Why you should make distinction? He claims: *Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7): "Every living entity is My part and parcel. Every living entity is begotten by Me. I am the father." So how you can make discrimination from one son to another? That is foolishness. You cannot expect by pleasing one son the father will be happy. But if you bring something to the father and pay him, or some food, "Sir, it is for your sons," then he'll be pleased. He'll distribute the foodstuff to his sons. But if you take care one of the sons and don't take care of the other son, the father will never please. Very . . . that is not the way of pleasing the father. That is foolishness. You may say that, "I am taking care of the best son," but to a father, either the best son or the lowest son, the same. Father does not make any . . . "Because this is best son, he should be satisfied and the worst sons should be neglect." Father does not make. Father will like better that, "You take care of my worst son first." And besides that, to take care of the human society, it is also bogus. Nobody can take care. There are so many problems in the human society, how you can take care? But the real problem is—that is for everyone— janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . Either he is animal, or human being, or demigod, or big man, or small man, or rich man, or poor man, a learned man, foolish man—these problems are there, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . So if you take care of these problems, how to save them, all of them, from these four problems, that is real service. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Otherwise temporary—"I am hungry. You give me some relief"—but that relief is temporary. I'll become again hungry. And if I come to you twice, thrice, you'll be disgusted. Neither you can. There are so many hungry men. But if with a view to solve his all problems of life, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi , if you take care of him, that is the best service. *Ānandamaya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, also Lord Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā at the end that "One who surrenders unto Me, he will be delivered from all material reactions and go to . . . (indistinct) . . ." But it is also said that some persons, they are more inclined to surrender than others. Prabhupāda: Yes. You should surrender, you should request others to surrender. That is service. Ānandamaya: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it because of their karma, past activity, that they . . . *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, one can immediately surrender if he likes. The background has nothing to do. Even the background is sinful, Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66): "I shall save you from reaction of sinful life." Then there is no consideration of their background. You simply surrender. Then it will be solved, everything. Ānandamaya: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, has anyone got the same ability to surrender? Because . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone has got. If I say: "You surrender," you just . . . what is . . . if you disagree, that is another. Otherwise you can surrender immediately. Where is the difficulty? Ānandamaya: So it's just by our personal whim that we can surrender. Prabhupāda: Anyone can surrender immediately. There is no difficulty. But if he does not, then nobody can induce him. Otherwise, if he likes, he can surrender immediately. And He said, voluntary. Kṛṣṇa does not force. If He would have forced, then He would not say: "You surrender." No, it is your will. If you like, you surrender. If I say: "You do this," that is not force. If you like, you can do it. That is your interest. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63): "Whatever you like, you do that. But I give you the right instruction, that if you surrender, you'll be happy." That is the greatest service. If you teach people how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the greatest service. That will solve his all problems. (aside) . . . (indistinct) . . . has . . . that's all. Bring water. If you don't surrender, then go on suffering. That's all. That is your business. You should surrender. Guest (2) (Indian man): I have got some doubt. Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (2): If we are all children of Lord Kṛṣṇa—all the living beings are a part of Kṛṣṇa—in that case childrens in thousands and hundreds who are killed every day . . . Prabhupāda: That is created by you, that you may become the sons of one father, but every one of you has got different tendency. Guest (2): But I can't see how . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, just try to understand that we are all sons of Kṛṣṇa. That's nice. (aside) No, there is another one. Devotee: Of brass? Prabhupāda: It is silver. You go. All right. A father has got five sons. Some of them are very learned; some of them foolish. Why? Does the father like that "The some of my sons should be rascals, and others should be very nice"? Does the father like it? Then why he becomes? Hmm? Guest (2): If one becomes . . . Prabhupāda: Purva janma para janma. (Reincarnation, rebirth.) That we say. Consider. But these varieties are there, so how you can check it? Cause may be different. I have seen while I was in Allahabad one big barrister's sons. One became barrister; another became ekala . You know ekala ? Ekala driver. So the father did not like that, "One of my sons should become ekala , and other son should be like me, barrister," but I have seen. And there are many instances. Father does not want that, "My son should be vagabond, useless," but sometimes they become by their own activities. That independence everyone has got. So that is not father's creation. Your point was "Why God has created like that?" That is foolishness. God says that, "You surrender." But you do not surrender. That is your foolishness. Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . must be punished. *Prabhupāda: Eh? Naturally. Suppose if there is some infectious disease, the doctor says: "Don't go there." And if you go there, you'll be infected. You'll suffer. How the doctor can protect you? Doctor's duty is to warn you not to go to that area, "It is now infected with smallpox." But in spite of doctor's instruction, if you go there and if you infect that disease and suffer, then it is your fault. When a man is hanged by the judgment of the court, do you think that the high*-court judge is inimical to that person? He's giving judgment to other persons that, "This one must make one lakh of rupees from that person." And next judgment, "This man must be hanged." Does it mean the high-court judge is partial? He's simply giving judgment on the merit of the particular case. So there is no argument that, "Why God has created so many varieties?" God has not created; *you have created. "Man is the architect of his own fortune." Fortune and misfortune you have created. So we have to suffer or so*-called enjoy. There is no enjoyment here. It is simply suffering. But because you are under māyā , you are thinking suffering as enjoying. Just like a hog is eating stool. Other man is becoming: "Very abominable! Oh, what nasty thing he is . . ." But he is enjoying. He is thinking, "I am enjoying the best food." I have seen in aeroplane. One Indian gentleman, he was eating the intestine of the hog. So it was horrible for me, but he was eating very nice. *So in this way the world is going on. "One man's food is another man's poison." So similarly, we are creating our next birth according to our desire. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). According to the infection of the different modes of material nature, we are creating good or bad body next life. The laws of nature is unknown to the foolish society. They are thinking, "This life is everything. Misled, they do not know the aim of life. That is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind leader is leading other blind men. This is going on. And when we present the real solution, they say it is brainwash. Now, against our movement there is propaganda in USA, charging that "He has brainwashed them." (aside) You can come here. Aage badhiye. (Move forward.) "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." This is our position. When we speak all these things, they say it is brainwashing movement. Actually it is brainwashing movement because we are dissipating all kinds of misunderstanding, values of life. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam . It is not brainwashing; *it is heart*-washing. Our heart is stacked with so many dirty things, so we are trying to wash it. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam (CC Antya 20.12). And that is our movement. We are trying to cleanse the heart so that he can understand himself. One can understand his real position and then do the needful, and life becomes successful. Guest (3) (Indian man): Where is soul? Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Jagad*-guru : He is asking where is the soul. Prabhupāda: Can you see? So soul is within the heart. When the soul goes away, you cannot explain what happened. You say: "Heart failure." So why the heart failure? The nerves and the bones and the muscle and the blood, everything is there, and still, you say that, "It stopped. Heart failure." So just like machine is running, but somehow or other stopped, but you do not know what is the cause of stopping. The cause is that the heart, when it goes away, then the machine stops. Guest (3): God is within the soul also. *Prabhupāda: Yes. God is along with you. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is there. *Guest (4) (Indian man): Swāmījī, in Bhagavad*-gītā it is telling karma also and surrendering also. Now, how it is possible? In karma-kāṇḍa . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Karma , if you do . . . just like we are preaching so many people to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, but they will not do it. Do you think our this instruction that, "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," is taken by everyone? Do you think? Suppose you are all here. We are preaching the same thing, that, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." But these boys, they have surrendered, but you have not surrendered. Guest (4): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand. It is . . . the free will is there. If you don't surrender, then, Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ : "Instead of sitting idly, better you do your prescribed duty." So prescribed duty is cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to guṇa and karma , there are four divisions. So if you are in the first-class division as brāhmaṇa , you do the brāhmaṇa's work. If you are a kṣatriya , you do the kṣatriya's . . . niyataṁ kuru karma . What is you are destined, you do that nicely. Don't be idle. That is Kṛṣṇa's in . . . but if you are intelligent, then Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). But you are foolish, then you be engaged in your prescribed duty. And if you are intelligent, then "You give up everything; simply surrender unto Me." That depends on you. If you are intelligent, you'll surrender; if you are not intelligent, be engaged in your karma . Kṛṣṇa is giving all facilities. Now it is up to you to make your selection. But He says, niyataṁ kuru karma . (aside) Find out this verse. Devotee (3): Should I read the translation? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): "Perform your prescribed duties, for action is better than inaction." Prabhupāda: But if you have no prescribed duties, then you are animal. Just like monkey. What is his duty? He is jumping simply and creating havoc. Monkey is very busy. Wherever he'll sit down, he'll " gat , gat , gat , gat ," like this. That's all. Very busy. But what is the meaning of his business? Simply creating disturbance Therefore it is said, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam : "Act on your prescribed duties." Don't act like a monkey. That is better. What is that? Devotee (3): "For action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." Prabhupāda: Then? Purport? *Devotee (3): Purport: "There are many pseudo*-meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set for kṣatriyas . Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya . Such activities gradually cleanse the heart . . ." Prabhupāda: You are following? Go on. *Devotee (3): ". . . and free him from material contamination. So*-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others." *Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad*-gītā is giving you gradual process to the highest point, and highest point is to surrender. That is the most confidential part of knowledge. Sarva-guhyatamam. Guhyād guhyataram . Find out this verse, Eighteenth Chapter. He has given the instruction of karma-yoga , jñāna , everything, but the most confidential instruction is this. Devotee (3): Translation: "Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit." Prabhupāda: Is there any purport? *Devotee (3): "The Lord has given Arjuna confidential knowledge of the Supersoul within everyone's heart, and now He is giving the most confidential part of this knowledge: just surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At the end of the Ninth Chapter He has said, 'Just always think of Me.' The same instruction is repeated here to stress the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā . This essence is not understood by a common man, but by one who is actually very dear to Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. This is the most important instruction in all Vedic literature. What Kṛṣṇa is saying in this connection is the most essential part of knowledge, and it should be carried out not only by Arjuna but by all living entities." Prabhupāda: Guhyatamam , most confidential. This is not for all, but for the advanced person and who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, He says, iṣṭo 'si me . . .? What is that next? Iṣṭo 'si ? Devotee (3): Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi . Prabhupāda: Dṛḍham ? Devotee (3): Dṛḍham . Prabhupāda: No. What is the spelling? Devotee (3): Dṛḍham . Prabhupāda: No, no. The word, separate word? Iṣṭo 'si ? *Devotee (3): D*-r-d-h-a-m . Prabhupāda: Hitam . Devotee (3): Dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi te hitam . *Prabhupāda: Te hitam . So it is not for all. One who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee, for him, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man—"You do your prescribed duty." But they have no prescribed duty even. The people of this age, they are so fallen, they have no prescribed duty. They are simply engaged like animals—eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That's all. Animal is engaged like that, eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. So we are being educated only like animals. We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , vaiśya , utmost śūdra , like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping and sex and defense. Therefore śāstra says, nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). You should not live the life of a hog, viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ-bhujām means the stool-eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong, then "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life. *So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyataṁ kuru karma tvam . You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), and then your prescribed duties are there. If you want to become a brāhmaṇa , then śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam , jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). If you want to be kṣatriya, tejaḥ . . . what is that? Tejaḥ śauryaṁ yujyaṁ yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam . If you want to be a vaiśya , kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). And if you want to remain a śūdra , paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam . And that is prescribed duty. You classify yourself—either as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or a vaiśya —by quality, not by caste or by whims, no. Actually by qualification. Then you engage yourself in that duty. That is niyataṁ karma tvam . Otherwise, jumping like monkeys, that is not karma . That is monkey's dance. It has no value. Wasting time. You should not waste time a single moment. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam . So make that. Don't waste your time. (pause) Prabhupāda: That's all right. She is child. What can be done? You cannot . . . Guest (2): Swāmījī, what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa says, you hear and do. Just like you are now acting, family conscious or country conscious or society conscious. The dog is also working as dog conscious. Monkey is working, monkey conscious. He is thinking, "I am monkey." You are thinking you are Indian. He is thinking he is American. He is thinking as . . . so on, so on, different consciousness. But when you act Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is your real dharma. Now we are working under different consciousness; therefore varieties. And when you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is oneness, perfection, to act according to the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). What Kṛṣṇa says, you act accordingly. You are acting . . . the Communists, they are acting Lenin consciousness. Is it not? Their god is Lenin. I have been in Moscow. Everywhere Lenin's picture, Lenin's book, and they are worshiping Lenin's tomb. That is Lenin consciousness. So similarly, you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Guest (5) (Indian man): Those who have become Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will see Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise where is consciousness, if you do not think of Kṛṣṇa? Just like these boys, they are always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, either chanting or reading book or selling book or writing book, preaching Kṛṣṇa, twenty*-four hours, taking Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , taking rest for working in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything in Kṛṣṇa, chanting always Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have no other business. Guest (6) (Indian man): What is the meaning of good citizen? Good citizen? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is spiritual vision. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme spirit, and if you remain Kṛṣṇa conscious, then spiritual vision. That is spiritual. Guest (6): Swāmījī, you have seen Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: What do you think? We are all rascals, blindly following? Do you think like that? Then why I have not seen? Why do you ask this? If we are acting for Kṛṣṇa, do you mean to say that we are following blindly? Do you think like that? What is your opinion? If we have not seen Kṛṣṇa, then how we are acting for Kṛṣṇa? Hmm? What is your idea? We are all fools, that without seeing the master we are acting? Do you think like that? Why don't you answer? This is foolish question. How one can serve a master without seeing the master? Is it a fact that without seeing the master one is serving? (aside) Find out this verse, sarvatra yo māṁ paśyati , mayi ca sarvaṁ paśyati , like that. Devotee (3): Sarvatra ? Prabhupāda: Yo māṁ paśyati . Or yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra . Find out. Yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra . Devotee (3): (devotees discuss finding verse) "For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me." Prabhupāda: Is there a purport? *Devotee (3): "A person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness certainly sees Lord Kṛṣṇa everywhere, and he sees everything in Kṛṣṇa. Such a person may appear to see all separate manifestations of the material nature, but in each and every instance he is conscious of Kṛṣṇa, knowing that everything is the manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Nothing can exist without Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the Lord of everything—this is the basic principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the development of love of Kṛṣṇa—a position transcendental even to material liberation. It is the stage beyond self*-realization at which the devotee becomes one with Kṛṣṇa in the sense that Kṛṣṇa becomes everything for the devotee, and the devotee becomes full in loving Kṛṣṇa. An intimate relationship between the Lord and the devotee then exists. In that stage, the living entity attains his immortality. Nor is the Personality of Godhead ever out of the sight of the devotee. To merge in Kṛṣṇa is spiritual annihilation. A devotee takes no such risk. It is stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā , premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (BS 5.38)." Prabhupāda: Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti . He sees every moment. *Devotee (3): " Yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya*-guṇa-svarūpam . . ." *Prabhupāda: Govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . Devotee (3): " 'I worship the primeval Lord Govinda, who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of Śyāmasundara situated within the heart of the devotee.' At this stage Lord Kṛṣṇa never disappears from the sight of the devotee, nor does the devotee ever lose sight of the Lord. In the case of a yogī who sees the Lord as Paramātmā within the heart, the same applies. Such a yogī turns into a pure devotee and cannot bear to live for a moment without seeing the Lord within himself." *Prabhupāda: You are seeing also Kṛṣṇa, but because you have no love, therefore you cannot appreciate how we are seeing. If you love some person you keep his photograph on the breast. Is it not? So you are seeing Kṛṣṇa in the temple, but because you have no love you think that, "I am not seeing Him." That is the defect. They are seeing Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why they have sacrificed everything for worshiping Kṛṣṇa, for dressing Kṛṣṇa, for feeding Kṛṣṇa? They are seeing Kṛṣṇa. They are not wasting their time. But you have no love for Kṛṣṇa. You're thinking that "They have not seen Kṛṣṇa. They are worshiping an idol." That is the difference. One who loves somebody, he keeps his picture on his chest. He does not—he throws it, same picture. It is question of love. Therefore it is said, premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu (BS 5.38). One who has developed that love and bhakti , he can see Kṛṣṇa at every moment. Otherwise it is not possible. And because you cannot see, you ask them also, "Can you see?" But the seeing process is different. We do not know the process; *therefore we are thinking that Kṛṣṇa cannot be seen. And one who knows the process, he sees every moment. Is it clear? You learn the process, you will see Kṛṣṇa every moment. Therefore this word is used, premāñjana*-cchurita . By the eye ointment of love you have to smear your eyes; *then you'll be able to see Kṛṣṇa. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). Find out this verse. Yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ. When one's eyes is covered by the yoga-māyā he cannot see, see Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (3): Prabhupāda: Mūḍho 'yaṁ na abhijānāti : "Those who are rascals, they cannot see." Mūḍho 'yaṁ na abhijānāti . So one has to become interested how to see Kṛṣṇa. Guest (7) (Indian man): Satya Sai Baba says . . . Prabhupāda: Satya Sai Baba is not authority. Guest (7): No, no, I don't accept. Prabhupāda: Then why you quote him? We are not prepared to hear his words. Guest (7): Kindly clear up my doubt. Prabhupāda: No . . . that is another thing. That is another thing. Guest (7): All the miracles only just to increase confidence and all this . . . Prabhupāda: Why . . .? Magic is magic. That is another thing. That is not knowledge. Guest (7): Suppose if I want to talk here Kṛṣṇa consciousness among the masses . . . Prabhupāda: No, we have to push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, not by the ways and means by Sai Baba. That is foolishness. Guest (7): Can I attain such magical powers? Prabhupāda: So why? What is the use? We are not using any magical powers. Guest (7): Just to convince the people. Prabhupāda: Why this foolishness? We never . . . ask my disciples. I have never shown any magic. Why? Bhāgavata: That is a cheap business. Prabhupāda: That is cheating business. That is not required. It is meant for the foolish men. Guest (7): (indistinct) . . . Suri Bhagavantam, he was convinced by him just because of his magical powers. Prabhupāda: Who? Guest (7): Suri Bhagavantam is a scientist. He was convinced by him just because of his magical powers. Otherwise he could not influence me. One of my friends who was sitting there, he told me, "Satya Sai Baba, he won't come this side," he said. I said: "I'll make him to come this side." Prabhupāda: No, these are words. He has been challenged also by a group of educated men. So there are some fools, rascals. That is all . . . Guest (7): I have got belief in God, and so Narendra, my friend, was sitting by my side. "No, if I sit there only, he will go that way. I want to see him this side." Prabhupāda: Do you accept Sai Baba as God? Guest (7): No, no, not at all. Prabhupāda: Then why do you speak all this? That's . . . Guest (7): Not even greater than me. I don't think like that. He is also a human being like me. Guest (6): In the *Bhāgavatam* it is said that (indistinct Sanskrit) . . . (indistinct) Guest (7): And he could not do his siddhi before . . . (indistinct) . . . if it is real siddhi he could have showed all his powers even before . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Go to the standard of knowledge. Bhagavad*-gītā is accepted by the ācāryas —Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. So take that standard. Why do you go to the rascals and fools? Unless you are rascal and fool, you cannot go to the rascal and fool. Why? You take. If you want to know God, take the standard knowledge which is accepted by the . . . ācāryopāsanam . You take the knowledge through the ācāryas . Why from a rascal? That is not knowledge. Kṛṣṇa recommends how to take the knowledge. Eh? Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam (BG 13.8). Worship the ācārya . Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa guru m eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). (aside) Just read this. What is that? Devotee (3): Amānitvam adambhitvam . . . Prabhupāda: This is the process of knowledge. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāt (SB 11.17.27). If you go to ācārya , then you'll know the knowledge. What is this, go to a magician, a rascal? Magician is authority? There are so many magicians. So one should go for God to a magician? Ācāryopāsanam . Go to ācārya . That is recommended. Why should you go to the magician? That is your fault. You go to the wrong person, and you are cheated because you want to be cheated. You want to see magic, you don't want to see God. God is personally speaking, accepted God, not that by magical . . . and who can show greater magic than Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa, when He was seven years old, He lifted the Govardhana Hill. Can this rascal do that? Who can be greater magician than Kṛṣṇa? So we shall go to the greatest magician. Why shall I go to a teeny magician? That is our misfortune. If you want to see magic, see the magic, what Kṛṣṇa has done. This is our misfortune, that we go to a wrong person and misled. If you want magician, see Kṛṣṇa, how great magician He is. He married sixteen thousand wives. Is there any instance in the history of the world that one has sixteen thousand wives and maintaining each of them? And He expanded Himself in sixteen thousand husbands. Not that one wife is waiting: "When sixteen thousand . . . after sixteen thousand nights, He would come here." No. He is present everywhere. That is magic. Nārada was surprised, that "How Kṛṣṇa is maintaining sixteen thousand wives?" He saw in each and every home sixteen thousand establishment, and Kṛṣṇa is present everywhere. *So this is magic. Why don't you see Kṛṣṇa's magic? Why you are so much allured by a teeny magician? That is your misfortune. Poor heart, poor magic. See the real magic. If you want to see magic, see the Kṛṣṇa's magic. Kṛṣṇa, when He was three months old, the Pūtanā came to kill the child by poisoning, but she was killed. So in this way, from the very beginning of Kṛṣṇa's appearance, He's killing so many demons. So why don't you see this magic? If you want to see magic, see Kṛṣṇa's magic. Why the poor magic? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29): "I am the proprietor of all the lokas ." And each loka . . . suppose this loka , earthly planet. There are hundreds of gold mines. Why you are captivated with the chaṭāka gold? Why don't you be captivated by the person who has millions of gold mines by His wish? So we are poor, therefore we are captivated by poor magician. If we are intelligent, then we should be captivated by Kṛṣṇa's magic. That is intelligence. But we are poor; we are captivated by poor magic. That's all. Don't be poor. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.25). Don't remain mūḍhas . Try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then your life will be successful. That is Kṛṣṇa knowledge. Janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). Anyone who understands Kṛṣṇa's activities, then he becomes liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . Why don't you use your valuable time for understand Kṛṣṇa? Why you are captured by the poor rascal magicians? That means we are unfortunate. If we become captivated by teeny magician, that means we are unfortunate. Be captivated by the magic Kṛṣṇa has shown. That is the point. *Guest (8) (Indian man): Your Divine Grace, there is Mukunda*-mālā-stotra by Kulaśekhara Mahārāja. Are there any translations of that in the English and other languages? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (8) (Indian man): There are . . . (indistinct) . . . ślokas with you . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Prabhupāda: Yes. I think we have translated Kulaśekhara . . . it is not published, but I have translated. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, some of these devotees are required to . . . with your permission, I'd like to have some of the devotees come out for kīrtana and . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So? You can go to the ārati , kīrtana . Go. Jagadīśa: Just take whatever you need. Prabhupāda: You also go. (break) Devotee: . . . the argument that after saying: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa" and becoming free from the miseries of material life we remain still going home, still a devotee who comes through the heat, still a devotee who is dying just like an ordinary man. Prabhupāda: It is an argument like this, that you have gone to a physician for curing your disease; why you are not cured? This is nonsense question. It will take some time to be cured. Do you mean to say as soon as you go to the physician, you become cured? Do you think? Why don't you answer like that? A foolish man will say like that, that "You have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are now suffering?" Yes, suffering will be . . . kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So the assurance is there. You take the treatment. Why do you expect, immediately you go to the physician? A father gets the daughter married, expecting a child. Does it mean as soon as she's married, immediately child? And if a rascal says: "Oh, she is married, and there is no child?" Because he's a rascal. You must wait. Now she is married, it is sure she'll have child. That's a fact. But if the rascal wants, "Now my daughter is married. There is no child?" What is this nonsense? This question is like that, that "You have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are suffering?" You cannot answer this? Devotee: Yes. Also you give the example of the cat catching up the mouse and the cat . . . *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But first thing is that why do you want immediately effect? That is foolishness. The effect will be there. Therefore it is called dhairya . Utsāhād dhairyāt . Dhairya means patience. You act, God acting with patience. The result will be niścaya . The result will be there. These things are required. Utsāhād dhairyāt niścayāt tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt , sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati . So why you should have a foolish person—"Now I come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have become immediately everything. Give up everything"? Why do you think like this? The same example: the girl is married, now it is sure that she'll have child. Wait. Niścaya . When there is husband and wife there will be child. There is no doubt about it, but wait. Why do you expect immediately child on the day of marriage? This is foolishness. So you should answer these rascals like that. "You cannot expect immediately. But we are on the path. We have just entered." One enters into the school. Does it mean in one year or six months he becomes M.A.? He has to wait. But he has entered the school; there is expectation of his passing M.A. examination. But one who has not entered school, loitering in the street, he has no . . . he's hopeless. But this man has hope. Wait. The same example: if one girl is not married, then where is the question of child? Everything has to wait. Therefore it is said, utsāhād dhairyāt . One should have proper enthusiasm and patience. That is wanted. How one foolishly expects the result immediately? You sow the seed; you water it; it grows; then it becomes big tree; then pick the fruit; then eat. Immediately you cannot expect, immediately you have got. As soon as you get the seed, you have got the thing, undoubtedly. But you must give time the seed to fructify. That required. Guest (2): What exists between the planet Gokula and the . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: There is a planet who is full of cows, Gokula. That's it. Surabhīr abhipālayantam. Cintāmaṇi*-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam (BS 5.29). Kṛṣṇa is engaged there in tending cows, surabhi cows. That is Gokula. That planet is full of cows. Guest (2): What I mean to say is what exists between any two abodes, plenary expansions of Śrī Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: What exists? Guest (2): In the two abodes of the plenary expansion of Kṛṣṇa. What exists? *Prabhupāda: Plenary? Yes, Kṛṣṇa is expanding millions and millions forms. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (BS 5.33). That is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is expanded, and He's living in your heart, my heart, ant's heart, everyone's heart. These are expansions, Paramātmā. Guest (9) (Indian man): Sir, his point is what exists between the planets? Guest (2): This intervening medium. Prabhupāda: So you do not know the outer space? Outer space? The space is there. Just this planet, sun planet, there is space between. You do not know this? Eh? Guest (2): Do you mean to say there is no space between His planets? Prabhupāda: I mean to say . . . now you mean to say also. You do not know there is space difference between one planet to another? Guest (2): Unless it is bounded by space. Prabhupāda: So whatever it may be, there is difference. Just like you are existing, I am existing. There is space. So what is the difficulty? Guest (2): No, but actually it is beyond space and time. Transcendental. Guest (9): Spiritual planets, he means to say. Guest (2): They are beyond space. Guest (4): They are beyond time and space. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what does he mean? What does he mean? Guest (10): What is your point? *Prabhupāda: The point is that . . . you can explain in this way, that goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma*-bhūtaḥ (BS 5.37). Kṛṣṇa is in the Goloka planet, which is far, far away from our planet, but still He is everywhere. That is the difference. That you cannot imagine. In our material knowledge you cannot imagine that. But that is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati , tad aham aśnāmi (BG 9.26): "Anyone offering Me in devotion patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam , I eat." Now, Kṛṣṇa is living far, far away in the Goloka planet. How He can eat? That is your imagining. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, I do." That is Kṛṣṇa. Although He is far, far away, He is within your heart. That you cannot imagine, how it is possible. That is your material knowledge. But you have to accept from the statement of śāstra that although He is far, far away—within your heart. Aṇḍāntara-stha-para . . . He is within the atom also. So that you cannot imagine. That requires a different knowledge, Vedic knowledge. The material knowledge will not help you, but you cannot imagine. You have to accept Vedic knowledge. What is stated in the Vedas , that you have to accept. That's all. Otherwise there is no possibility. Therefore to understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's activities, you have to learn from Kṛṣṇa. That is Bhagavad-gītā . You cannot manufacture your knowledge. That is not . . . because you are defective—your senses are imperfect—so whatever knowledge you get through your senses, that is all imperfect. You cannot get perfect knowledge by your imperfect senses. That is not possible. Therefore the Vedic injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to learn that transcendental science you have to approach a guru who knows it. This is a different phase of knowledge. By your material calculation it will be difficult. The same thing, Kṛṣṇa says, aśnāmi : "I eat." So Kṛṣṇa is far, far away. How does He eat? Guest (2): It is said there that holy planets exist the . . . Prabhupāda: Who says? Who says? Who is the sayer? An imperfect person, that's all. Guest (2): No, it is in the *Bhāgavatam* . That's what I am saying. Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that? Guest (2): That holy planets exist between the lotus stem that's sprouting from navel of Kṛṣṇa. But there are many planets, millions of planets . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is all explained there. Yasyaika*-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (BS 5.48). Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya . The Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing, and with the breathing innumerable planets are coming, brahmāṇḍas are coming out. Yasya eka niśvasita-kālam atha avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ. Jagad-aṇḍa means universe, and jagad-aṇḍa-nāthaḥ means Brahmā. Millions of Brahmās living within the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. So we have to accept this Vedic knowledge. You cannot compare with your limited knowledge. That is not . . . Guest (4): His argument is that everything is bound by space. Prabhupāda: Yes, space is there. Guest (4): No, it's in the pits of the . . . Prabhupāda: Space. Space grows, Brahman. Bṛhatvād bṛhannatvāt . Brahman means the greatest. The space is considered to be the greatest. So it is not only greatest but it is expanding more and more. It is becoming greater and greater. Just like some children, they made some foam, soap. It becomes bigger, bigger, bigger. It is like that. It comes from the breathing period, but as soon as come out it becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. That is bṛhatvād bṛhannatvāt: Brahman, the greatest. A small seed of banyan tree, very small, you cannot . . . it becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, and so big tree with the leaves. You see daily how it is coming. Can you make such seed, you scientist? Can you make? Then? Why do you compare your poor knowledge with Kṛṣṇa's knowledge? That is your poor fund of knowledge. You are thinking that, "Kṛṣṇa may be like me." You can just compare the small banyan tree seed, just like a mustard seed, and it contains such a big tree; not only big tree, millions of seeds also, containing another millions of big trees. Can you make such seed? Hmm? You scientists, can you make? You tell me. Can you prepare that seed? Then what you are scientist? See Kṛṣṇa's science. Don't compare yourself with Kṛṣṇa's science even. Guest (2): No, one thing, if you say Goloka is infinite, we should be existing within Gokula. How is it that we are without Gokula? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are within Kṛṣṇa—therefore you are within Gokula. Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa is within us. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And Kṛṣṇa is without. That is Kṛṣṇa, antar bahiḥ . Antar bahiḥ . Kuntī says in her prayers that "Kṛṣṇa, You are antar bahiḥ . Still, people cannot understand. You are . . . without, You are existing, and within, You are . . . still, they are so rascal, they cannot understand." Antar bahiḥ . Kṛṣṇa is without, Kṛṣṇa is within, but they cannot see. That is their misfortune. Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35). Kṛṣṇa is within the paramāṇu , atom. Can you find out Kṛṣṇa? He says, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd . . . (BG 18.61). He is within your heart. Can you find out? Then where is your science? It is already indicated that He is here. Find out. How you can find out? The dimension of the soul is given, one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. The tip of the hair, you divide into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the dimension of the soul. How can you find out? Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīvo bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ (CC Madhya 19.140). Everything is written there. Now you find out the measurement. You cannot find out measurement of the tip of the hair. And you have to divide into ten thousand parts. Then the measurement of the soul will come. So how can you do it? But they are described in the śāstra . So go and see ārati . (end) Conversation -- December 7, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: There is no arrangement for producing vegetable? Mahāṁśa: We just finished one harvest, Prabhupāda, and now the second harvest is already in the ground. Prabhupāda: So what kind of harvest? You finish and then you have to wait for six months for the second one. Mahāṁśa: Now we are designing one plot for continuous . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm, so this . . . where is Tejiyas Mahārāja? So you immediately arrange for producing vegetables. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, I'm asking Tejiyas. Haṁsadūta: Here is Tejiyas, here. Prabhupāda: Oh, here he is. So, why don't you do that? Tejiyas: Yes. I'll make up the scheme today. It should be that you have continuous crop. You plant seeds one week . . . but again they have made the same mistake with these cauliflower and cabbage. Prabhupāda: Well, they mistake . . . you say, "They mistake." Who are "they"? You say you do mistake. Don't say "they." This is bureaucracy, "they." You are all "they." Anyway, whatever is done, immediately make arrangement. And this is one thing. And the other thing: I came here that there will be festival and prasādam distribution. Why this is not begun? Mahāṁśa: Till yesterday there was being marriages in the city. Now, from today, the paṇḍāls are free. Prabhupāda: Because there are marriages our program will be cancelled? Mahāṁśa: No, but the person who gives us the paṇḍāl . . . it's supposed to start today, Prabhupāda, their program. They have been advertising in the villages about the prasādam distribution this evening, so the stage and the śāmiyānā will be coming today and the pots are coming today. So we have all the grains and everything. We can start the prasādam distribution this evening. Prabhupāda: So you'll keep . . . come in charge. So do this also immediately. And the next is that Bhogilal wants to come here. So bring him immediately. What is the difficulty of that house? Mahāṁśa: All the plastering inside is finished now. Prabhupāda: Everything, whatever is finished . . . Mahāṁśa: Painting has to be done. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mahāṁśa: The toilets are working, all the connections are finished, and only thing is the painting has to be done today. Prabhupāda: So painting also can be . . . without painting, we can go there. What is the wrong problem? Mahāṁśa: It looks a little shabby. If we wait for one more day it will look much better. Prabhupāda: So one more day we shall wait, but tomorrow we must go there. Mahāṁśa: Yes, tomorrow we can go there. Prabhupāda: So arrange for bringing Bhogilal tomorrow. Mahāṁśa: Yes, tomorrow afternoon or evening we can arrange. Prabhupāda: No. Yes, so immediately arrange for that. He is very important man. If he comes, you can all mature consultation about this . . . (indistinct) . . . about managing. He is practically doing. He has one thousand acres of land. Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes, it's not a joke. Prabhupāda: And he is practical businessman. So immediately . . . and besides that, he is already sympathetic. He is becoming interested more. So he can do so many things for us. He is a very nice man. So he volunteered to come here. So bring him immediately. So arrange. From tomorrow we go there. If it is not finished, then he may be given that place. I am at here. I shall stay. Or he can be given this room, I can go there. In this way . . . because the doors are not yet fitted. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that's the main problem. Prabhupāda: But there are so many main problems. So at least in my side the doors are fitted. So I can go there, and he can stay here. Anyway, either there or here, arrange to bring him immediately. He will go away by the twelfth. So he may stay here at least for one week. Mahāṁśa: One week. Prabhupāda: Tell him like that. Mahāṁśa: Yes. And the cooking will be done by his men. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Because if he comes, his cook will also come. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. His cook and servant, yes. So make this arrangement so that everything should be inaugurated tomorrow, not more than that. So you have to purchase vegetable and then make it big, big scheme. (chuckles) Bambharambhe laghu*-kriyā . Ārambha , very big, and action, very little. And ask some of our devotees to collect all the gobars and bring here. I want gobar. There is so much gobars scattered here and there. Take one basket and two men may go and collect all of them, put it in the sunshine. So nowadays sunshine is so bright. You can have so many things exposed to sunshine. All vitamins. So you immediately make program for vegetable, fruits, flower, surrounding this, immediately. So how Bhogilal will be brought here? Mahāṁśa: In his car. Prabhupāda: In his car. So make arrangement. Either we both of us, we may stay there, or one here, one there. Mahāṁśa: And the secretaries can stay here. Prabhupāda: Secretaries, as they are staying. I think one can manage that. There is no difficulty. (break) So all the devotees here, they are all required there? Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then why . . . so the temple work is not suffering? Mahāṁśa: It is. Prabhupāda: Then why you are keeping so many devotees here? Mahāṁśa: The main problem now is that there were three pūjārīs , and one of them is here, and he doesn't want to go back to pūjārī work, so we have to find . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Mahāṁśa: He doesn't want to go back to do pūjārī work, so there's only two pūjārīs , and they were just complaining yesterday that it's very difficult to do so much Deity worship. Prabhupāda: So why? Why he does not want to go? Mahāṁśa: He wants to go traveling for a while. Prabhupāda: So that cannot be. So traveling means you have asked him to . . .? Haṁsadūta: No, I haven't asked him any . . . it's the same problem. Whenever I go somewhere there are always certain men, they want to go. Prabhupāda: No. Nobody can go without sanction. This is sense gratification, "I want to." This is not good. Jagadīśa: Actually, the temple right now is in lack of a full time manager. Mahāṁśa Mahārāja spends most of his time here, and I can see that the temple management is not going right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not very nice. So do you require . . .? But you also do not remain here. Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then you are not there; you are not here. Then where you are? Mahāṁśa: No, all these last, last two weeks I've been working on this house, and if I'm not here then . . . like yesterday I was not here, and the workers didn't work properly. Then I made them work in the night. When I came back, I saw that they have not . . . *Prabhupāda: So that means everywhere, if you are not there, then everything is gone to hell. Then what is this management? You cannot be everywhere. That is not . . . you are not Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānām ( BG 18.61). Mahāṁśa: I mean, the problem that came up in the temple, it was going on okay before, but then there was suddenly so many more devotees that came. Half of them were here, half of them were there, and they were moving around every day. So the temple managers were confused. They didn't know how much . . . how many devotees . . . Prabhupāda: No, temple . . . who is temple manager? Mahāṁśa: Ānandamaya is managing now. He's very good. He can do it nicely, but he was confused because there were devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Now there is no confusion. Immediately they can go, all the devotees. They are not required. What is the use? Jagadīśa: That temple is a big, big project. Ānandamaya is not competent to handle the whole thing. He doesn't have the respect of the other members, enough. And plus I don't see him taking charge anymore. If you ask him to get something done he says, "Well . . ." He always makes some excuse. This was my experience while we were there. Prabhupāda: Who is that man? Mahāṁśa: Ānandamaya. He has been here since four years, and he knows practically everybody in Hyderabad. He was working with me all the time. Prabhupāda: So then why does he not go there? Why he's here? Mahāṁśa: He's not here; he's there. Prabhupāda: Oh. So the devotees may go there. They have no business here to stay, so many. Why? They can return back. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Jagadīśa: They need a head, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: They need a head. Prabhupāda: A head means you have to train head. If you cut head, then how there will be head? Neither tail, neither head. Head means you have to train them, head. There is no need of so many men here. Why? Jagadīśa: Many of the men who are here are on Haṁsadūta's party. Prabhupāda: So, do they require here? Haṁsadūta: I sent all the men here because Mahāṁśa promised that there would be a program lined up, but there is no program. That's why they're just . . . now they all want to go, and if they can go I can send them. They are ready to go. They don't want to stay. Prabhupāda: So? Mahāṁśa: The problem is that the programs I didn't arrange, because the devotees were not regular in coming. I didn't know when they were all coming. So if I arrange a program, that means my men . . . Prabhupāda: But therefore the meeting is here. Do here now. Mahāṁśa: Yes, now it can be done. But I couldn't do . . . Prabhupāda: So it can be done. Why can you . . .? What? When it will be done, do that. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Don't make future promise. You do it immediately. Make program. But settle up when it will begin, when it is right. Here work is going on. That Mṛtyu, he cannot . . . no? Mahāṁśa: Mūrti dāsa. Prabhupāda: Mūrti. So he cannot manage without him? Mahāṁśa: He can. He has to be a little more acquainted with the people. He has to . . . Prabhupāda: He is here from the last June. He is not acquainted? Mahāṁśa: He's only here since about ten days. He's not here for a long time, and he's not very forceful in making them do the work. Prabhupāda: So who will be forceful? Mahāṁśa: He can be trained. I'm training him. Prabhupāda: So that training . . . everyone is under training; then who will be head? If in old age you have to be trained up, then when they will be trained up? So what is the . . . to sit down silently? That's all? Mahāṁśa: We'll send the parties out . . . Prabhupāda: Make. Make immediately program, where to go. (pause) Prabhupāda: So why you are not making? Mahāṁśa: Now? Here? Prabhupāda: Yes, make program immediately. Write what to do. Mahāṁśa: I was thinking one bus should go immediately to Kakinagar, because that's where they want to have program there, and they are ready to arrange it, and we can collect some money immediately for the expenses which are going on now. Prabhupāda: So go. Go. Mahāṁśa: So if you want, we could get one bus and few devotees can go on that. Haṁsadūta: But where is this place? Mahāṁśa: Kakinagar. It's in Andhra Pradesh, Visakhapatnam near Vizag. Haṁsadūta: You have to make a program that on the way . . . not that we drive one thousand miles to go to one program. That's not practical. Every fifty miles or so there should be some program. Mahāṁśa: That's what I mean. That whole course is . . . Andhra course is the richest area in Andhra Pradesh. Haṁsadūta: Yes, like that. Mahāṁśa: They give very nicely. We have had programs there, Prabhupāda, since three years. We've collected lakhs of rupees from there, and thousands of books have been distributed there. Prabhupāda: This I have heard even. Mahāṁśa: You have heard, yeah. Prabhupāda: So go there. What is the . . .? Make this. Mahāṁśa: They can start today? The boys are ready. They want to move, but it's just the leaders which have not decided on getting it done. Prabhupāda: So decide now. What is difficulty? *Mahāṁśa: If you can give one bus they can go immediately. And another party can go to Nagpur and start arranging for the program there on the 25th. They can do nagara*-kīrtanas , book distribution, and arrange for the program on the 25th, and one bus can go to Kakinagar. So all the boys will be out and be engaged. And the boys from Hyderabad should go back to Hyderabad and get into the program there. There's so much work to be done in Hyderabad. They're suffering a lot. Jagadīśa: What about the program here? Mahāṁśa: The program here doesn't need too many people. Only five, six people is enough. Haṁsadūta: (aside) Close the door. Mahāṁśa: Because the program here is just needing supervision. Jagadīśa: No, but I mean kīrtana , constant kīrtana , and prasādam . Mahāṁśa: Well, if you want constant kīrtana , then we have to have more devotees here. Prabhupāda: Constant kīrtana ? Who says constant? Jagadīśa: Well, we have to engage the villagers. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they'll come in the evening. We cannot be always . . . Haṁsadūta: Why not? *Devotee: German Śrīla Prabhupāda, we want to go nagara*-saṅkīrtana to the villages and announce the program. Prabhupāda: Go. Haṁsadūta: Well, go. German devotee: But we cannot go because Candrodaya, he doesn't want to go. *Mahāṁśa: Take Rāma*-kṣetra. Rāma-kṣetra knows everything. He knows. German devotee: Take as much as possible devotees? Haṁsadūta: Yes. German devotee: Okay. Prabhupāda: So write what you are going to do immediately. Write. Write the names, who is going where. Mahāṁśa: (indistinct) . . . they will leave? Haṁsadūta: I just wrote down all the leaders. Ātmavidyā, Puṇyaśloka . . . (indistinct) . . . Rājasāra. Otherwise I can go anywhere without fixing a program. I can go to any city. If no one is going to fix the program, I can go anywhere. That I was doing already. I came here because you promised me that in every city you know people, you can fix program. So fix them and then we'll go there. Otherwise there is no need to send anyone. We'll just go there and stay in a dharmaśālā. Prabhupāda: So why not go, one or two men, to fix up program? Haṁsadūta: In Nagpur, a city like Nagpur, you say you have members. Send some man who knows them from your temple. He makes an arrangement, we go there, make a nice program. Mahāṁśa: Okay. Prabhupāda: So who is going to Nagpur? Write that. Mahāṁśa: Vāsughoṣa and who from yours? Haṁsadūta: I'll see later who goes. Anyone can go with him if he knows what to do. Mahāṁśa: Someone who can speak Hindi. Prabhupāda: You cannot expect from his party anyone speaking Hindi. Mahāṁśa: He has many . . . he has a good Rajasthani boy who is very good with Vāsughoṣa. He's in Hyderabad now. Haṁsadūta: Who is that? *Mahāṁśa: Vāsanta*-kṛṣṇa, or somebody. They can take the van? Haṁsadūta: No need of van, is there? What're you going to do with van? Mahāṁśa: Well, if they're going to have to arrange a program in eight days, they have to run around to see so many people, get leaflets printed, get banners painted, see Municipal people, see the police people. Prabhupāda: For that reason van is required? Haṁsadūta: No, he can do everything by . . . Mahāṁśa: They have extra vans here. Haṁsadūta: It's not practical. I tell you, these vans . . . it's not practical to take these vans and drive them around the cities. It's very dangerous. It's not practical. It's easier to go by rickshaw. Mahāṁśa: What about a small one? Haṁsadūta: Yes, the small ones. I mean, it's easier to go by rickshaw. It's a fact, you know. We had this experience . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is local bus. For one, two men van running is not good. Mahāṁśa: So one bus party goes immediately to Kakinagar, with maybe Ātmavidyā or whoever . . . Haṁsadūta: Ātmavidyā. *Mahāṁśa: Ātmavidyā can lead that party. And one party goes to Nagpur as soon as that is fixed. And to fix that program, Vāsughoṣa and Vāsanta*-kṛṣṇa can go there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Then Hyderabad temple, devotees should return to their services in Hyderabad, and Godruma should return to Deity worship. A crew of eight devotees will stay over here to do the program over here. Prabhupāda: Hmm. And Haṁsadūta will stay here. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. And you begin your digging. Tejiyas: Mahārāja, you should tell the other persons who I'll have to work with that whatever I suggest, that they should do like that. Prabhupāda: But you take our ordinary laborer. Tejiyas: But they should know. Otherwise if I come, they may object, "Mahāṁśa Swami has to tell me." Just like I told this Yuthāgraja something. He said, "I have to ask Mahāṁśa Swami." I told Mūrti something. He said, "Only if Mahāṁśa Swami says, then I can do." Mahāṁśa: No, no. Tejiyas: No, but you should make it clear when we have a meeting. Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. We'll have a meeting with all the people on the farm. Tejiyas: You don't have to . . . then I'll see that you have vegetables. Prabhupāda: And these village men or any laborer, as you proposed, if they want, they can stay. We shall give him food, shelter, as well as some remuneration. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Like that, many people . . . Tejiyas: We bring a few. I can talk to them Telugu, and I explain and see who likes. We can give them some . . . Prabhupāda: There is a . . . he will be in charge of growing this, and this way do everything. And you go to Bhogilal or phone. Bring him here and I'll transfer there. I have no objection. Immediately. There is no need of painting. Mahāṁśa: No need of painting. Prabhupāda: No. Why there is use? We can manage there. Bhogilal may come, and he may be given here or wherever possible. Mahāṁśa: I'll ask the carpenter to try and fix those doors by this evening in Bhogilal Patel's room. The inside doors are already finished. Only those curved doors take time. So I'll . . . Prabhupāda: So you have made . . . cut fashion? Mahāṁśa: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Fashionable? Mahāṁśa: Yes, it looks a little nice. Prabhupāda: All right. So that room, if it is done, it is all right. If not, this room and that room. That's all. Better bring him. He'll be very useful. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Purchase one canopy instead of renting. We shall have to continue this program. Mahāṁśa: Right now it will be difficult to purchase, because we don't have enough money. Prabhupāda: What is the money? How much? Mahāṁśa: We don't have enough money. It will cost at least a thousand rupees or more, the whole thing, at least a thousand, maybe more. We don't have so much money right now. Prabhupāda: So I'll pay you thousand. But . . . Mahāṁśa: Okay. Prabhupāda: You pay me the rent, I'll pay you thousand. Yes. What is the rent per day? Mahāṁśa: I'll get it free, without rent. Prabhupāda: Then don't purchase. Mahāṁśa: That member, he has a store. He gives . . . Prabhupāda: So then what is the use of purchase? If you get free, no need of purchasing. Mahāṁśa: No purchase. Prabhupāda: So make this arrangement immediately. Then go, and we shall go out. Is it clear? No. Not? Mahāṁśa: Yes, it's light. Prabhupāda: I shall wash my teeth and go. Tejiyas: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- December 9, 1976, Hyderabad (Preparation for Gita Pratisthana) *Prabhupāda: . . . jail, it is not due to overpopulation. It is due to overcriminality. Similarly, whenever there is scarcity of supply or scarcity of food, it is not due to overpopulation. It is due to overcriminality or over*-sinful activities. Due to over-sinful activities, not overpopulation. It is a bogus theory. That is stated, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān ( BG 16.19). Those who are devils, who are demons . . . Jagadīśa: What was that verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Tān aham. Jagadīśa: Tān. Prabhupāda: For the demons. Demons and godless people must be suffering. You cannot make a solution. You cannot surpass the law of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). There is enough water in the ocean, but still you are suffering for scarcity of water. Why? What is the answer? Jagadīśa: Their answer or my answer? *Prabhupāda: What their answer, these rascals? Just like in Europe there is scarcity of water, they proposed to import, rascal. But there are so many oceans. So where is the scarcity of water? But why you cannot use it? Unless there is intervention by the nature's law you cannot use it. Therefore you are completely under the laws of nature. Nature will punish you, nature will reward you, according to your acts. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi, ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). You are falsely thinking that you are independent. A slight deviation from the laws of nature will put you into difficulty. Immediately there are. You can close this door. (break) . . . population. In any case, one can be punished when the nature's supply is restricted. (break) Jagadīśa: It's from the Third Chapter. *Prabhupāda: So in order to release ourself from the sinful . . . reaction of sinful activity, we must perform yajña. And in this age the easiest process of yajña is saṅkīrtana*-yajña. (break) So what are the problem? Jagadīśa: Under "problems" are . . . there are some general problems, such as taxes. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: Taxes. Taxation. Prabhupāda: Hmm, taxation. So that is . . . you have created problem. When you transgress the laws of nature, this . . . there is shortage of supply. And the government, on this plea they will tax to mitigate your miseries. Actually they will not be able to mitigate your miseries, but on the plea of your miseries they will levy taxes and divide amongst themselves. So this is another way of punishment. Because the government is your government, because you are rascal, so you elect some, another rascal. And they invent ways of rascaldom to mitigate your miseries. To avoid taxation means you become good man and you select your ruler, good men. Then there will be no taxation. (break) Jagadīśa: Other problems? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: Other problems? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: Race relations. Prabhupāda: Race relations? That is also ignorance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa is original father. Where is the question of race? You are all brothers. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So, all problems solved? Jagadīśa: As far as I'm concerned. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: I can't think of any more major problems. I remember from . . . Prabhupāda: Problem . . . as long as you have got this material body you'll have problem. Jagadīśa: One after another. Prabhupāda: Therefore the best solution is to go back home, back to Godhead. Jagadīśa: We have to convince them that they have problems, because they think that they're enjoying. Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Therefore they require education. Jagadīśa: They don't know of the real standard of enjoyment. Prabhupāda: How they can know? There is no understanding. Mūḍha. (long pause) Prabhupāda: To solve all these problems, therefore, there must be a class of men, brāhmaṇas. Not a class; a section of people must become brāhmaṇas. And all other sections should consult them and live as kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, śūdras. (pause) Prabhupāda: Then? It is finished now? No. Jagadīśa: Well, we've solved all the problems. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jagadīśa: We've solved all the problems. Now we want to convince this Vinoba Bhave to support us? Prabhupāda: Yes. So can you see what is the position, my quarters? Hari-śauri: Well, Mūrti said your side is fit for moving into. But if they have . . . see, Bhogilal Patel is not here yet, so I thought if we wait at least till tomorrow, if you want, then that will give them the chance to get a few more doors on, and then, if Bhogilal comes tomorrow, then we can move in the morning. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: See, they have all the wood now for the doors, and they need one more day and then all the doors will be fitted in the whole house. Prabhupāda: So do that tomorrow. Hari-śauri: And that will be a lot safer too. Security reasons, it will be a lot better. Prabhupāda: Tomorrow morning we can go. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. (break) . . . śuddhyed sattva, purify your existence. (end) Conversation -- December 10, 1976, Hyderabad (Conversation on farm management) *Prabhupāda: Make very nice, palatable prasādam . We shall spend for that. Why miserly? There is no need of miserly. You are going to earn money by agricultural produce, so how the money will be utilized? It will be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. By prasādam , by chanting, by drama, somehow or other bring them. That is our mission. Congregational chanting. Always festival, and we shall spend for that. Immediately arrange. If there is scarcity of money, I shall pay, but from . . . bring them, somehow or other. Tomorrow I want to see at least 500 men. Make arrangement like that. I came here to see that, not to sit down in a room peacefully. So there also we shall inform the meeting that we want to propagate this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement town to town, village to village, by attracting them with musical demonstration of saṅkīrtana , dramatic play, movie, prasādam . Somehow or other they should come to the temple, to the paṇḍāl , and congregationally chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , hear Bhagavad-gītā , Bhāgavatam . For this purpose, whatever expenditure is required, that you should collect and spend. This is the scheme of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. You must come here, question, understand, and vigorous propaganda should be inaugurated town to town, village to village. Those who are educated, to them distribution of literature. The school, college, library, institution, university, by scholarly presentation. That is wanted. What is that? Jagadīśa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Doesn't matter. Understand the idea? Jagadīśa: Oh, yes. *Prabhupāda: To attract them to really nice prasādam , palatable food, we shall spend. And we shall earn also by literature, produce, as they're earning. Where is the difficulty? We shall take contribution from rich persons. We shall earn ourself, and spend it to give them very nice prasādam . Gradually when they come, when you engage them in producing their own food, own shelter, own cloth . . . this should be organized. And they'll be glad. As soon as they understand, they will be glad to do. And they will stop all this nonsense: illicit sex and meat*-eating. Then their life will be purified, and they'll make more and more advancement in this path. That is perfection. That you want. Is it clear or not? Jagadīśa: Oh, yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes? This is our mission. If you give them very nice, palatable prasādam . . . they go to hotel from miles together to take some palatable foodstuff—restaurant, hotel. And we cannot give nice kṛṣṇa*-prasādam ? Why? Why you cannot give? Arrange like that, first class. Simply for eating they will come. Immediately do it. Jagadīśa: I have a question, whether we should always give them khicuṛi or whether we should . . . Prabhupāda: Give them nice prasādam by which they are attracted. It doesn't matter khicuṛi, purī, kachorī, lāḍdu . Whatever they are attracted, we must give. Jagadīśa: Halavā . *Prabhupāda: Whatever that will attract them. That I want. Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . Don't waste; give them nice, palatable foodstuff. Give them one finest kachorī , one nice samosā , two purīs , they will be very glad. Make very, very nice prasādam . What is this rubbish, the dog cannot eat even? They have done a great mistake, all rascals. I am very angry. I say that if you have no money, I'll spend, I will give you money. Why should you make such tenth class, and no food at all. It is to be thrown away. Simply waste of grains and energy. Engage nice professional cook, prepare nice foodstuff. I shall spend for that if you have no money. Gentlemen who are coming immediately should be offered some prasādam , "Please come here, take: purī, kachorī, samosā ." Arrangement should be like that. The doctors came, he comes out of love, but there is no prasādam . Huh? What is this? Jagadīśa: Sorry? Prabhupāda: The doctor comes, but we could not supply him prasādam at 12 o'clock. Jagadīśa: Today? Prabhupāda: Not today, the other day. Jagadīśa: Oh. Prabhupāda: Prasādam is not yet ready, you also said. After eating I have no . . . not yet ready. What is this? At 2 o'clock? As soon as they want. The Vṛndāvana also, the same thing I told that. Now they are doing? Prasādam , as soon as they want, they'll must feed some prasādam according to the position of the person. We shall spend for that. I am not hesitating to spend money. Why the arrangement is lacking? Immediately arrange for theirs and invite them. Don't make it childish. Where are the leaders? They are now engaged there? Jagadīśa: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: Our leaders are engaged there? Jagadīśa: At the kīrtana ? Prabhupāda: Huh. Jagadīśa: Mahāṁśa is there. I don't know where Haṁsadūta is. Prabhupāda: So anyway, this is my instruction. We have written and discussed and go. And I want to see tomorrow many thousand people. If you cannot make attractive, why they will come? Then it is failure. Make attractive. Whatever money is required, I shall pay. Simply theory will not help. Make such prasādam as people will come and be mad after it. Jagadīśa: Yes, we can . . . Prabhupāda: Just explain. You have taken in writing? Jagadīśa: It's on tape. Prabhupāda: So go and discuss. They must be attracted. Jagadīśa: I see. Prabhupāda: Otherwise it is failure. (break) Mahāṁśa: . . . who came, but . . . Prabhupāda: You are satisfied today? Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Mahāṁśa: No. The people also, there was no advertisement of today there would be a program. Prabhupāda: So whatever it is required, you do it. Mahāṁśa: So on tomorrow, I will do the advertisement and show them . . . Prabhupāda: Give them very, very first class prasādam . Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They will come for the tongue. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Today the ḍāl is . . . they liked it very spicy. Prabhupāda: That they like, I do not know what they like. But you prepare they should come and eat. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I do not know what they like. Mahāṁśa: There is a lot of sabjī in the ḍāl also, today, and it's hot. They like it. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, whatever they like, the villagers, you prepare. If you have no money, I shall pay money. Mahāṁśa: Okay. Prabhupāda: But attract them. They will come here to eat, "Oh, very nice thing." That is wanted. I made this movement successful simply by Love Feast. They did not come to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. They came for Love Feast. From very beginning, when I was in 26 Second Avenue, every Sunday I was giving nice foodstuff, at least 200 men. Daily at least more than fifteen, twenty. I was cooking myself. That is the beginning of my movement. The cāpāṭis with Kīrtanānanda, first of all he was taking one and two, then twelve. (laughter) There was another boy . . . Devotees: Stryādhīśa. *Prabhupāda: Stryādhīśa. Twenty*-two cāpāṭis . (laughter) "Stryādhīśa, can I give you?" "Yes." I gave him four. Finished. "Stryādhīśa, can I give you?" "Yes." (laughter) Very nice boy. He was eating twenty-two. One day there was no money, so he immediately went and came after some time with some money. "And where did you go?" The shoe booth. He polished shoes and brought some money. (laughs) (laughter) In this way, this was developed. Give them prasādam , nice prasādam . Any gentleman comes, immediately there must be some prasādam . Engage first-class cook. Spend money; don't be a miserly. If you have no money, I will pay. So long I am living, I shall go on paying. You don't be miserly. Bring devotees for eating and then chanting, then cinema, then lecture. In this way you have to develop. Not that people will come, "Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is there, let us go there." They will not come. What do they know about Hare Kṛṣṇa? They will come, "Oh, there is nice, good prasādam distributed." Mahāṁśa: Some people I know, they said that yesterday the prasādam was not nice, and there was . . . *Prabhupāda: Not nice—it is not eatable even by the dogs! But you are less than the dogs if you prepare such thing. I was surprised. You allowed a sweeper to cook. I was surprised. We have distribution prasādam , not dog's food. Such rascals are here. You do not know. I do not wish to discuss anymore on this point. You have murdered the whole thing in two days. Now if possible, bring them, give them first*-class prasādam , very palatable. Foodstuff means even one has no appetite, he'll eat. That is food. Not that even one has got appetite, he'll forget. That is not food. So do like that, and for money produce, use cane, sugarcane, rice. We shall spend for that. Don't spoil money, but do like businessman. He invests money, he gets a return. Spend it for Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. There is no question of becoming a miser. I never did it. When I have got a farthing, I want to spend it, immediately spend. Oh, what I have made this BBT? Immediately fifty percent for printing and fifty percent for spreading this. Why don't you understand what I want to do? So whatever is done is done; now do it very nicely. I want to see at least 1,000 men coming from the villages. There are 20,000 men here. You cannot attract them? Mahāṁśa: Can we announce that you will give darśana on the stage for five minutes? Prabhupāda: Huh? Mahāṁśa: Can we announce . . .? Prabhupāda: Nobody will come for my darśana , but if you want, I'll go. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult task. Mahāṁśa: Because they are all very anxious to see you, because they've all been . . . Prabhupāda: All right, I shall go. What is that? The difficulty is I would have gone very gladly, but they do not understand my language, neither Hindi nor English. Mahāṁśa: It can be translated in Telugu. Prabhupāda: Then I shall go. I shall go. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I shall go. I shall speak. Give them very nice food. From tomorrow I will . . . if there are rascals, you bring. I will pay nice cook. Make varieties, very palatable food. Kichranna, puṣpānna , rice, there are so many preparations. Paramānna . You do not make paramānna, kichranna, puṣpānna. There are varieties of rice preparation. They know, the southern people, with curd, yogurt . . . Mahāṁśa: Tamarind. *Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamarind, so many preparations. So make like that. Why dog eating? They are not dogs. You cannot expect, because you are giving some dog*-eatable food, they will come. There must be one first-class cook, and all our men should learn. There's no need of simply keeping unduly, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa," and sleeping. We don't want such men. Make a show. And do not know anything how to preach. Useless. The householder, the women should be engaged in cooking. Their children should be gathered together. One man . . . I have said many times, all the children should be taken in a room by one woman, and others should be engaged in the cooking department. I have seen it. Your country, America, when they go to church, all the childrens are gathered together in a room. Is it not? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: And one or two men take care. And others, they go. Similarly, children they must have, so . . . not that everyone is children busy, "I cannot do." They cannot do if they are busy with children. So what is the use of keeping such householders? Let them live outside, earn their money. Woman business is to cleanse, to cut the vegetables, to cook. What is this? They're simply busy with the children? And they have started their mission for maintaining some children and useless women. You should organize. Rādhikāra pakka anna vividha byañjana. All the gopīs, they are engaged for cooking for Kṛṣṇa. Mother Yaśodā will call them, "You young girls, you can cook very nicely." Do you understand Bengali? Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Rādhikā with Her friends, they are cooking. And they cook so nicely that parama ānande kṛṣṇa korena bhojana : with great pleasure Kṛṣṇa is eating. And that we have to distribute. Not dog's food. You do not know what is the purpose of this mission. Don't do it. Here is a good chance; *don't spoil it. Produce huge. Make profit. You spend for Kṛṣṇa. Train all devotees how to cook. All women. Don't distribute dog's eatable things. Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . *Kṛṣṇa is taking with great pleasure. That prasādam you have to distribute. Not that dog is rejecting and you have to distribute that prasādam . Why do you think like that? This prasādam , this so*-called, rubbish thing which is rejected by dog, and you are offering to the human being. You do it. If you have no money I shall pay. There is no question of scarcity of money. Don't spoil money, but spend for real purpose, that's all. And you arrange for huge agricultural. Whatever is required, water, we shall arrange for that. Labor, everything. And if you perform yajña , there will be rain. Anyway, I asked you the other day to fill up the tank. What is the difficulty? Mahāṁśa: Which tank? Prabhupāda: That big tank. Well. Big well. Devotee (1): Just here. The one that's been pumped empty. Anyway, the big empty one that we . . . Prabhupāda: But you were surprised. You do not know that we have got a big well here? Mahāṁśa: The one that we drink water from? Hari-śauri: The big square one. Devotee: Behind the house. Prabhupāda: Why it is empty? Hmm? Mahāṁśa: Fill it for what, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Why the well is empty? There is no water. He's surprised, as if dropping from the sky. You do not know that well? Mahāṁśa: It's just a tank. Prabhupāda: Tank, yes. Why it is empty? Mahāṁśa: Because I didn't know what purpose it will serve by filling it. Prabhupāda: Filling it, we shall pump and distribute water. You shall fit pipes, and pump water and distribute to the field, so there will be no scarcity of water, and produce. What it was meant, you do not know? Mahāṁśa: No, right now, that field does not need water to . . . Prabhupāda: Then why you are not growing there something? Mahāṁśa: The paddy is drying over there, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mahāṁśa: The paddy, the rice, is drying. Prabhupāda: No, no, there are so many other fields. Why they are empty? Mahāṁśa: Oh, we have to go and do boring wells and . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore that means water supply. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that's what I have to arrange now. Prabhupāda: Hah. So why . . .? When you will arrange? Arrange it immediately. Mahāṁśa: Yes, before . . . Prabhupāda: And that is also one of the water pool to solve water problem, the tank. Do you follow what I say? Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You fill up the tank, and by pumping through pipe, you distribute water. Jagadīśa: The viaducts are already there, troughs. Mahāṁśa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: If we have got water filled up in that tank, we can water so many lands. We shall spend for that. We shall . . . pipe line, pumping. If you have so much land we can produce gold. But you have no brain. Produce gold, get money and spend it for Kṛṣṇa. This is wanted. Not simply planning and talking. The world is suffering for want of right planning. Otherwise, there is no question of suffering. Pūrṇam idam , complete it is, everything complete. That is the Vedic version. Why it is incomplete? Incomplete means these rascals. Supplying the necessities of life. (break) Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Kṛṣṇa does not want to see that we are starving for want of food. That He does not want to see. But because you have come to the material world, you have to work hard. Then you'll get your food. That is the material world. Śarīra*-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ ( BG 3.8), Kṛṣṇa says. Very . . . if you do not work, then you cannot get food. Simply work together. Sarva-kāma-dughā mahī (SB 1.10.4). And you get from the land. You have got land. You get anything from the land. The land must be moist, then you get everything. That we want to show. Hmm? What do you think? Land is . . . Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Eh? You are intelligent, you . . . eh? Harikeśa: You are the intelligent one, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Now, what do you think this idea? Harikeśa: No, it's wonderful. Prabhupāda: Yes, do that. Harikeśa: In Vṛndāvana I saw one bull, just goes around in the circle all day and makes the water come up on these little catchers. And then it goes . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, so many means there are, watering. Harikeśa: The whole field. *Prabhupāda: Yes. People have lost the program. These rascals, they draw all these men to manufacture Goodyear tire and eat stone. This is going on. Modern man, they draw all these man, "Come on, I shall pay you 20 rupees daily. Prepare Goodyear tire, and eat stone. Take paper. Purchase stone. That's all. This is going on. What brain they will have? Twenty rupees they get, and they spend ten rupees for wine and five rupees for cigarette, and fooding, say five rupees. No ghee , no milk. Soul*-killing civilization. And against this soul-killing civilization, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hmm, what you wanted to say? Devotee: This . . . your Dr. Ghosh, where he is staying . . . Prabhupāda: Mm. Devotee: We were there this afternoon for a program, and all their land is so green, and they are growing vegetables by a patch no bigger than this mattress that you are sitting. They are working one, planting, then growing another. Just a small piece, then planting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: They have some way for the water to go to . . . Prabhupāda: You should do like that here, in our land. Do like that. If they can do here, some few miles away . . . Harikeśa: We can do. Prabhupāda: . . . you can do it. Do it immediately. See how they are doing. So much land, why it should remain vacant? So combinedly immediately begin. Hmm? So how long you are staying here? Harikeśa: Till Sunday morning. Prabhupāda: Oh. So your business is complete or . . . Harikeśa: No, almost. Prabhupāda: So, give him all help. Haṁsadūta: Yes, people are . . . Prabhupāda: He is doing very nice there, and he'll do very nice. Haṁsadūta: One thing I thought it would be good if Your Divine Grace would write a letter making him the GBC, so that he can act with full authority. Prabhupāda: I'll give full authority. Write letter; I shall sign. Yes. You have full authority. Write letter, I'll sign. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Harikeśa: By your talking, I'm also thinking we should have a farm in Germany. I know . . . *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not? Everywhere. I myself, when I go to the farm, I forget whether it is India or Germany or France. I forget. The land is there. Sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī . We get everything from that. I have several times said that why they make this distinction, "This is France," "This is India," "This is . . ."? Everywhere the God's land. Why these rascals make division, I do not understand. Every land belongs to Kṛṣṇa, and you are sons of Kṛṣṇa. Let us live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. All rascals, mūḍha . There is rain now and then fall in Europe? Harikeśa: Yes, now it's very much. Haṁsadūta: Now it's too late. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: Now it's too late. Harikeśa: I mean, it wasn't there, but now it's so much. Prabhupāda: Hmm. But God is giving hint, that if "Rascal, it is in My hand. I can keep you in starvation to death." The man is dull brain. Anyway, I am anxious to learn why so many people are suffering. They have become all gray. Throughout whole France I saw. From Paris to Valencay I went. Gray. These people are not lazy, but there was no water. They utilize every inch land for agricultural purpose. At least I saw in France. Then maybe everywhere in Europe. They are not lazy fellow. There is organization, government organization, here. People, they . . . anyway, let us show some example. Immediately make program. You have seen, yes? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: And you are expert. Do it immediately. If there is requires some money, we shall pay. Fill up. What is the difficulty in filling up this tank? Mahāṁśa: I'm not still understanding which tank you are . . . because there are many tanks . . . Devotees: . . . (indistinct) Harikeśa: . . . it's empty. Mahāṁśa: No one ever swim in here. We took out water to water the fields. Prabhupāda: So why it is empty? Have it filled up. Mahāṁśa: How to fill? It has to come by itself. The water comes from the recuperation from the soil, so it is not in our hands to fill it. It just comes by itself slowly. It takes six days. If we empty the well it takes takes six days to fill it. Prabhupāda: No, no. By the . . . by digging a well or something you cannot . . . Mahāṁśa: If we do a boring, then that's . . . the well can be filled. We have a pump and we can fill it. But now, as it is, it's fifty feet deep. Prabhupāda: Why not make boring? Mahāṁśa: That is my plan. That is what I was telling . . . Prabhupāda: Why plan? Why do it now? Mahāṁśa: Yes. Now . . . Prabhupāda: Keep it always filled up. Harikeśa: He's saying he has the money. Mahāṁśa: Yes, I was thinking before you go, we should get the rigs coming here and putting on the whole . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): Tomorrow we should go to that place. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Devotee (3): It's the first business. We should go to that place and have him come, start the pool. Prabhupāda: Water required. Fill up with water and distribute water and produce, huge quantity, whatever can be produced. Sugarcane, rice, these are very valuable commodity at the present moment. Produce. And sugarcane means the upper portion will be the food for the cow. Mahāṁśa: Even rice. Prabhupāda: Even . . . oh, yes. Very, very practic . . . we want some, same, food. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Bhūtāni means both animal and men. Animals should be well fed. Not only human being, but animal also. Otherwise, how he'll work? Don't use tractor. Use this bulls. Otherwise there will be a problem, how to engage the bulls. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Engage them for transport, for plowing. Mahāṁśa: We should not get a tractor? Prabhupāda: No. When you have got bulls, why should you get . . .? Mahāṁśa: We have only 8 pairs of bulls. Prabhupāda: Yes, and other bulls have been eaten up. Now we stop that eating. No, if you need, you can purchase tractor. But as far as possible try to avoid, and engage the bulls. Otherwise it will be problems. The Europeans have invented tractors, and the bull is a problem. Therefore they must be sent to the slaughterhouse. So we can not create that problem. How the bull should be utilized? They should be used for transport and plowing. (background noise) What is this turmoil? Haṁsadūta: I think they are distributing prasādam . *Mahāṁśa: Now they have finished the slide*-show, and they are sitting down for prasādam . Prabhupāda: All right. Go and see it is done nicely. Announce that, "Tomorrow we shall prepare such and such nice preparations. Please, you are especially invited." In this way attract. (end) Conversation -- December 12, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: So explain the situation to them. Mahāṁśa: What happened a couple of times before over here was that some devotees became very passionate, mistreated a few village people over here, these laborers. And at that time many of the village people, from the villages, they came and they were protesting, and they made a big scene about it. One of them was Caraṇāravinda, who created a very . . . Prabhupāda: No, Caraṇāravinda is eccentric. Devotee: Too much. Mahāṁśa: And then there was Advaitācārya also. So there was very delicate situation, because these people, they . . . it may be a very little thing, you know, little thing, which does not need much propaganda or anything like that, but the village people made it very big, and all the village people came . . . Prabhupāda: Naturally they do that. Mahāṁśa: They do that. They start . . . because they have no other engagement. A little thing to excite them, then they want to become excited. Prabhupāda: In Bengal it is called tilake tāla. Tāla , a palm fruit, it is big, and tila , is the sesame. You know sesame seeds? Haṁsadūta: Sesame. Prabhupāda: Sesame, yes. That is very small. So these seeds, sesame seed, is called tila . Tila lava , and they make it tāla . Instead of tila , it becomes tāla , and then big mess. Tilake tāla . The fact was tila , but they called it tāla . Mahāṁśa: So that was happening. Then the other thing is that these people, they are very innocent people, and they are very superstitious also. So when they see foreigners, they immediately become a little afraid. And there is some kind of a complex that comes on them and it makes it very difficult for the foreigners to communicate with these people. This is what I have seen happening. It is very difficult to commu . . . now this is what I have experienced since last two, three days also. When Tejiyas was trying to get this garden around here done, but the laborers could not get the message across. They were doing something else, and then the blame was coming on me. I never instructed them at all for doing anything. I never took them away from the work at all. I was amazed and I was surprised to hear that I was accused of taking away the laborers from Tejiyas and put them on some other work which I had no concern at all. So this is what was troubling me today when I was thinking that, "How is it that there was this misunderstanding which has caused anxiety in so many devotees?" So this communication gap is going to be a problem which has to be solved. And for that . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, this is the explanation of the situation? You . . .? Haṁsadūta: You experienced. Prabhupāda: Yes. So how to adjust these things now? Do it. Mahāṁśa: What I would suggest, Prabhupāda, is that I could stay here, and whatever work we have to do, we sit together in the morning or in the night and we decide, "Tomorrow we have to do so much. We need so much labor for vegetables. We need so much labor for this, this." We make up a whole schedule of work for the next day. And in the morning laborers come and Tejiyas, who has experience in agriculture, he can show how this has to be done, how that . . . Prabhupāda: And he can speak Telugu also. Mahāṁśa: Yes. And I can be there to see that there is proper communication. And then after ten o'clock, because laborers start work early morning, so at ten o'clock, then I can go to Hyderabad and do official work for the day, seeing the government people and things like that. Prabhupāda: So what do you think? Eh? Haṁsadūta: That's good. Prabhupāda: That is all right? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Do it like that. Tejiyas: We should meet not late in the evening; in the afternoon, so that the . . . if we need more laborers, they have to be informed previously. We can't inform them in the morning. We have to inform them the previous day. In the evening someone has to go to their village or whatever and tell them how many people we need, because each day is going to be a little different. As soon as we get the water, we're going to need many, many laborers. *Mahāṁśa: Yes. That's how it would be, if we could get permanent laborers. That's another thing I experienced, that when these village laborers come, they come at nine o'clock, nine*-thirty, they work at their own speed and then, at five-thirty, they see the sun. I was amazed how they find the exact time, but they do it by the sun's movements. Exactly at five-thirty they will stop their work and go. But I have seen our laborers who stay here on our land, they work from five-thirty in the morning and they work all day, all the way to the night. Tejiyas: There are some people here from the local village. They are working also nicely. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Tejiyas: I think that Ānandamaya, he is . . . Prabhupāda: So this is good idea. In the evening you sit together, make program and execute it. Tejiyas: In the morning. Prabhupāda: That's all. Haṁsadūta: There's one more point that Tejiyas made. That's about the outside workers, he was saying, from Kerala. Tejiyas: We should also be careful because . . . about enmity also. Because I've lived in the villagers' houses for two years, and I've seen in different cases where if an outsider is there. These Kerala people, they are also considered outsiders. These villagers, they regard them as being different. So they are actually even getting more requisites than the local people. We should try and encourage the local people in working. They may not in the beginning work so hard, but we should encourage them that this is their project. Mahāṁśa: Local people will always be working because we will never have a staff to be enough for all our work. Like, we may have twenty, thirty families staying here, and I have seen that the people who are staying in these villages, they will not come and stay over here, because they are staying just around here; they have their own house. They will come and work here, they will participate and everything, but they won't come and stay here. They have their houses outside here. But the people from different villages, a little away, who have no home, who are helpless, they will come and stay and they will be very loyal. If we give them food and we give them clothing, they will be very loyal to us. They will become like our full supporters. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Naturally. Naturally. Mahāṁśa: There is two men here who are like that because they have no home. They were staying on the street and they were working on the construction. So I said: "Come here." And then we gave them food . . . Tejiyas: That Mobhu? Mahāṁśa: Mebub Shah. He's a Muslim, but he's so loyal. He's the best man. And then Puru and Hanuman too. These three people, they are very loyal and they are trustworthy. These people in the villages, they tend . . . because they have their home there, so sometimes they want something for their home, so they will steal. And if some other village man steals, he will not stop him. He will say: "All right," because if he stops him, then in his village there will be trouble for him. See? So he will encourage his other villagers to steal. But these men, if they see some villagers stealing, they will stop him. This has happened. Prabhupāda: This is natural. So how to deal with this? *Mahāṁśa: So we have both. We can get outsiders to come and stay here who we can give prasādam , make them chant and give them mahā*-prasādam . They love it. In the morning . . . we used to give them a little mahā-prasādam in the morning. They used to like it very much. Like that, we gain their confidence. *Prabhupāda: We shall like that they will come here and stay and remain our twenty*-four hours' son. That is very good also. Mahāṁśa: The only thing is that in the beginning, because they do not know us very well, they will demand some salary. I told you previously that now I am paying them hundred rupees and 125 rupees for family. Prabhupāda: So why 125? Hundred rupees sufficient. If they are eating and we are giving shelter, then a hundred rupees sufficient. Mahāṁśa: Hundred rupees . . . if they have a family, then his wife works also and then his children who are grown up, they all work. Everyone works. Prabhupāda: So they'll also work. So that you have to decide. Manage so that there is no misunderstanding. Simply management required. So you . . . the best thing is that you sit together . . . Tejiyas: Without fail we have to meet every evening. There shouldn't be any . . . without fail, every evening we should meet. Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be all right. Tejiyas: There shouldn't be many interruptions. Otherwise then it becomes a botheration. Haṁsadūta: One question I have, Prabhupāda. Yesterday, day before yesterday, we were discussing about the prasāda cooking. Prabhupāda: So if they bring one nice cook . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, well, this evening I was just over there, and I noticed some of the carpenters are cooking, and I don't know who the other people are. Prabhupāda: Why? Mahāṁśa: They're not cooking for the feast. They're cooking their own thing. Haṁsadūta: No, no, no. They were cutting up our vegetables which are going to be cooked and served to the public. Mahāṁśa: No. Haṁsadūta: Yes, right over there by the fire. Prabhupāda: No uninitiated person should cook. Brāhmaṇa cook. Mahāṁśa: What about professional cooks? Prabhupāda: Real brāhmaṇa . Mahāṁśa: Professional cooks? Prabhupāda: Profes . . .? They are brāhmaṇas . Mahāṁśa: Yes, but they . . . even though they are brāhmaṇas , they have this habit of smoking, and if we try to find a professional cook who doesn't smoke, it is very difficult. Prabhupāda: Hmm. As far as possible, our men should cook, a professional man who is in good habit, who has promised that they will not do this smoking. We have to manage somehow. Mahāṁśa: As far as our devotees cooking, it's practically impossible. We have tried so hard. They just can't do it. Yesterday two of the boys tried to help, and the rice was not cooked because it was not done. And he burned his leg. The water fell on his leg, and he couldn't handle the pots properly and he got . . . now the poor boy, he is suffering. He's got a wounded leg, one of the German boys, the one with long hair. So our devotees, they are not . . . this boy, Bengali boy, Dilid, he's good. He can do it but he needs at least four or five men to help. Tejiyas: He was a professional cook, but he's not . . . he can't do it himself. He needs too much . . . Mahāṁśa: He needs at least four people to help. It's a big cooking, so it's also very difficult for one man to do, and nobody wants to help the cooking because it's so hot, the smoke goes in the eyes and it's very troublesome. So nobody wants to help in the cooking, devotees. Prabhupāda: Not willing. They are not willing. Mahāṁśa: They're not willing to help in the kitchen because it is very hot, very hard, the eyes get burned, things like that. So this one Bengali boy, he's a very good cook. He can do it very nicely but he wants help. And if no one helps, then he refuses to cook. And if you press him, then he runs away. Yesterday he tried to run away four times because we were trying to press him to do the cooking. Prabhupāda: No, no, cooking alone, it is not possible. So that you have to do. Find out some men. Cooperate. Otherwise how it is possible? Haṁsadūta: Yes, therefore I'm asking you about hired people, whether hired people are good. In my experience . . . Prabhupāda: So if they are . . . if our men not available, then you must hire, hire people. But not these carpenters or like that. Mahāṁśa: No, we should get professional cooks who are really good, like this man who cooked today. Prabhupāda: Yes. And this man is coming. He can bring. Mahāṁśa: Yes, he himself will come. But he will have the habit of smoking, and I think we can at the most regulate his smoking, "If you want to smoke, you go somewhere far away and smoke, and before you start cooking you must wash yourself, have a bath, and then do the cooking." Prabhupāda: Yes. What can be done? Ne māmā che kānā māmā : "If there is no uncle, one blind uncle is all right." So the matter is now clear. You do it and develop it. Jagadīśa: There is one confusion in my mind, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Mahāṁśa said that the local villagers will not be inclined to come here and live because they are living just outside. But my impression was, from hearing you speak, was that everyone, whether they're living just outside or a long distance outside, they are suffering from material existence. They're having to struggle for existence. They're being taxed by the government. There's so many problems to maintain themself. And every living being in the material world is struggling to maintain himself. But if we offer them a house here and some work and we give them all food, clothing, and . . . Prabhupāda: That is our aim. Jagadīśa: That's our aim. Prabhupāda: That is our aim. So you can engage some men to cut the hill for blocks and gradually develop house. Tejiyas: These Badapur, they are good men. Prabhupāda: Like this room, yes. And as far as possible, induce them to come and live here. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Yes, that can be done. But family attachment . . . you see, these people, they have also family attachment, just like karmīs . So they are not so willing to . . . because their whole family . . . the whole village is like one family. It's like one family. They are all related to each other. And they can stay. They stay. Many of them stay here overnight. Prabhupāda: Naturally everyone wants to stay at his own place. "Home, sweet home." "There is no place like home." That's a fact. That is psychology. They will like to stay there. But if they have got facility to live here with family, they may come. Mahāṁśa: I was thinking we can make their house just like our house. If they are living right on our border, we can go to their house, tell them how to make an altar and make them live like how we are living. Let them stay there but let them live a good Kṛṣṇa conscious life. Prabhupāda: They'll come gradually, not immediately. Immediately, the psychology is, they have got attachment for their house. It may be worse house, but still, their attachment . . . that is natural. Long, long ago, when I was child practically, I went with my father in the village. So one man from the village was serving us. So my father, "This boy is nice. So why not take him to Calcutta?" So one day he was absent. It was dropping and . . . so I went in the interior of the village and I saw that his house was broken, there was no roof, and rain was falling and he was sitting, covering with a cloth. Then I told him that, "Why not come with us in Calcutta? We shall give you nice place, nice food." So his answer was, " Nā bābu ghar chere jabo nā " (chuckles), "Bābujī, I cannot go out of my home." That was his home. (laughter) This is my practical exp . . . he was sitting idly and it is dropping, and he could not come to serve. Still, that is his home, and he cannot leave home, that " Bābu ghar chere jabo nā ." That is psychology. It may be very worse condition; still, nobody wants to give up "Home, sweet home." That is natural psychology. So you have to manage. You see that why they, these Delhi passenger clerks . . . this morning I was telling that son was asking mother, "Who is this man?" His father, and he had never seen. "You have seen father." No, rather, he had no chance to see father because when the father comes back from the office it is night, ten o'clock or more than that. That time the son is sleeping. And again he has to go early in the morning. That time also, son is sleeping. So he did not know. So one Sunday, when he's grown up, he is asking his mother, "Who is this man?" "So this man . . ." Not only in India—everywhere. I have seen in New York from the other island? What is that? Haṁsadūta: Long Island. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Long Island. Prabhupāda: Long Island. They are coming two hours in the ferry, three hours in the bus. They are going to the office. Eight hours there. Then five hours and eight hours, thirteen hours, again five hours. Then thirteen and . . . eighteen hours. And for six hours they have got home. "Home, sweet home." Mahāṁśa: I knew people coming from Poona to Bombay to work. Prabhupāda: Just see. Mahāṁśa: All the way from Poona. Devotee: One and the same thing. *Prabhupāda: The home attachment is so great. These Delhi passengers, they are coming, hanging, and there are so many accidents daily. And few hours he will live with wife. That is his home. And whole other, out of twenty*-four hours, seventeen hours are outside, and maybe seven hours at home. But still, he'll come home. The home attachment is very big. Therefore we have to create attachment for this hari-saṅkīrtana . If you create that attachment, then they will give up home attachment, try life, to live here. Tathāsakti . You have to train them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in such a way. Then: *Tathāsakti . Then they will be attached here. Spiritually if you enlighten them, then they'll be attached. They'll voluntarily say they are accepting here. The chanting, chanting, then . . . this is the beginning that, "You chant and take prasādam ." Then ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Gradually the heart will be cleansed, and gradually they will be elevated to the platform of āsakti . Then they will not want money, they will not want . . . then they will live here, work, just you are doing. That stage, that requires little advancement. Therefore I say this kīrtana program must be continued. Then ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam . As you make the heart cleansed, they become more and more advanced. And then this stage of āsakti that, "This is . . . we shall live here." Just like we have given up our hearth and home and wife and children. We have given up that attachment. This attachment, practical. That is . . . you cannot expect immediately. That is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). When one gets better attachment, then they can give up this nasty attachment. Therefore we have to continue this saṅkīrtana . This is the psychology. But there is very great prospect to develop this place, and you have got experience. If you can develop, it will be very nice example. Once successful here, we can introduce this program. And India will be easier because they are by nature inclined to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will be easier. The kīrtana must be there. Otherwise, why we have to take so much responsibility? Tejiyas: Last night it was very hard. Again, no one was coming to the kīrtana . Prabhupāda: Eh? Tejiyas: These persons who are staying here in the garb of devotees, if they don't come . . . Mahāṁśa: Devotees. No one would come. Tejiyas: It was a great struggle. Again Jagadīśa and I and Mūrti, we were alone there, and we had to go and get people, and again they wouldn't come. Prabhupāda: So what is the use? Tejiyas: This Kṛṣṇan wouldn't come, and this other boy never comes. They should be made to leave. Otherwise they must follow the program. Kīrtana is so nice. All day we may be doing something. The only relief we get, from kīrtana . Prabhupāda: No, without kīrtana , it is . . . Mahāṁśa: Refreshes you completely. Prabhupāda: If you stop kīrtana , then it is ordinary. Mahāṁśa: Work. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tejiyas: And these people are very enthusiastic for kīrtana . Prabhupāda: So our men should be, those who are here, they must be very enthusiastic. And the paṇḍāl , what is this play paṇḍāl ? This paṇḍāl ? It is very small. Make a big paṇḍāl . Mahāṁśa: But if you want every day, we should buy one. Prabhupāda: Buy one. Mahāṁśa: Good one. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Make it over there, permanent place. With permanent speakers, permanent lights and . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Tejiyas: We should have every night. Prabhupāda: Do. Mahāṁśa: Prabhupāda wants us to continue every day kīrtana and prasādam . Prabhupāda: So do this and purchase. What is the price? Mahāṁśa: I'll find out tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it nicely, enthusiastically. Everything will be success. So any other question to discuss? Haṁsadūta: I don't know if this is the time, but I think this project should have a separate account. Mahāṁśa: Yes. It will have an account in the name of the Trust. The Venkatesh . . . I mean ISKCON Venkateshwara Trust. So as soon as we register tomorrow, day after tomorrow we'll open an account in that name. With how many signees? Prabhupāda: Make three, you three. Mahāṁśa: Joint. Prabhupāda: Out of three, two. Out of three, any two will do. That's all. Mahāṁśa: And amount which will be given from Your Divine Grace will be a loan towards the Trust, which will be paid back later on. Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyāpur account you take. I ask them to transfer to this account. And when you want to pay . . . Mahāṁśa: Yes, then they transfer Prabhupāda: That's all. That will be . . . do that. So open account. Haṁsadūta: And also that lakh of rupees which I gave him last year. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his. Haṁsadūta: The temple should pay it. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that one lakh rupees I will pay from the four and a half lakhs . You told me to put it everything into your account. So should I put the four and a half lakhs into your account, or should I put one lakh in this account and then three and a half . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, give him. That's all. Mahāṁśa: Anyway. Okay. Prabhupāda: Otherwise give me, and I give him. Haṁsadūta: It was meant for here. See, we gave it from Germany for the project. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that is understood. Tejiyas: So that can go into this one. Mahāṁśa: Yes. It can go directly into this account. Prabhupāda: So immediately open account, and whatever minimum you want, I will give you. That's all. And three signatories. Out of three, two. Yes. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, if we're going to have a permanent paṇḍāl for visitors, why don't we build some simple kīrtana hall where the people can also take prasādam , something like they built in Māyāpur but not . . . Prabhupāda: Do it . . . do it gradually. For the time being have a paṇḍāl . Yes. Haṁsadūta: Yes, for the time being. That could be used for kīrtana and prasādam . Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: That you told me just now, at that site where we have the permanent temple. Prabhupāda: That, tomorrow morning we shall see and make a . . . Mahāṁśa: A design. *Haṁsadūta: One more question. When . . . the first time you were here two years ago, you suggested that we should have Gaura*-Nitāi Deity immediately. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nṛsiṁha*-deva, Gaura-Nitāi and Jagannātha. Haṁsadūta: Right here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Shall we begin right here? We have this little place . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. *Haṁsadūta: I have a set of Gaura*-Nitāis with me from the bus, but They're smaller. Prabhupāda: So immediately install. Immediately. Yes. And have regular kīrtana and ārati . Deity must be there. That will be our engagement. That's all right. Enthusiasm. Real thing is enthusiasm, utsāhān. Dhairya , patience. And . . . Mahāṁśa: Determination. Prabhupāda: Determination: "Yes, I must do it." And here, if you make determination, everything is there. Everything is there. Such a vast land, and capital Kṛṣṇa will give. Land, labor. Labor is there. So simply organization required, that's all. Then everything is all right. Make use the production. First of all eat yourself as much as you . . . and then trade. Get money. People will be surprised at the organization. And there are twenty thousand men all round? Mahāṁśa: No, that is . . . just in very near villages there's about eight thousand. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So if you can make one thousand person interested, then you'll be successful. So you can engage some worker for cutting the rocks. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Tomorrow I am arranging. Tejiyas: In this Dabilpur there's some very good workers. I saw in the village. They have so many places where there are rocks stacked up. And they have many craftsmen in that Dabilpur. That's the main village in this area. They have them there, just near Mr . . . that Anjaya Reddy's house. Prabhupāda: This house, the blocks are prepared, you make huts and engage some men to make that tile. Mahāṁśa: Tiles. Round tiles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: The roof tiles. Mahāṁśa: Yes, just like the ones which are in the temple. Prabhupāda: Then locally you get everything. You haven't got to get from outside. Eh? Jagadīśa: Clay roof tiles. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very nice, very strong and very comfortable and simple. (sounds of children) So the villagers have come? Mahāṁśa: Yes, it sounds like it. Tejiyas: Their children. By themselves they were doing this kīrtana . Jagadīśa: Is somebody leading kīrtana now? Tejiyas: The children. Jagadīśa: We should go. Mahāṁśa: Let's go. Prabhupāda: Sit down daily and make next program. Then it will be success. Mahāṁśa: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Conversation -- December 16, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: Don't take that I am simply paying agent. Is that all right, that I shall simply go on paying? Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: You have got so many trustees, and you all trustees and managing trustee and this trustee, and for payment I am responsible. Even for purchasing . . . (indistinct) . . . what is this? I did not say at that time, but I talked this morning to them that what is this? I shall pay everything, and you are all big, big trustees? So you give me in writing that including the four lakhs already paid. Already, I am a debtor, and plus this money, whatever I shall, you shall return me within three years. Where is that letter? Jagadīśa: I can get it typed. Prabhupāda: Get it typed. Let me see it. Jagadīśa: This is, ah . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, I can read. You can write letter. Bank of Rajasthan. What is it? Mahāṁśa: Yes, this was fixed deposit which was in Madras, and since there is nobody in Madras now, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa wanted to transfer that amount to BBT in Bombay. So he told me to get it done. And both the signers, Mahābuddhi and Śyāmānanda, are not available. So if you dictate to the bank as founder- ācārya of ISKCON, then they will send the money and I will direct it to BBT. Jagadīśa: This is the amount that Gopāla Kṛṣṇa was mentioning in his letter that we read last night that's supposed to go to the BBT. *Prabhupāda: Manager, Bank of Rajasthan, Madras. (break) You cannot avoid it. If you actually want people to be happy, if you actually want world peaceful situation, you have to take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Otherwise all your attempts will be failure. Because even Mahatma Gandhi, such a great personality, he did not take Bhagavad-gītā as it is—therefore he was also failure, what to speak of us. Indian man: Then we are going to take . . . few of us are going to take it very seriously. Prabhupāda: Kindly do that. You can do that. You have got influence, you have got intelligence, you have got the mind, you have got the appreciative power. Therefore, I am asking you amongst our . . . it will be . . . take, for example, our Indian government is secular. So who can be greater secular than our . . . (break) Actually, better become Muhammadan. Therefore, so many Muhammadans. Otherwise they are not imported. Indian man: They are not imported. They are all over the Indus. Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside) What is that? Devotee (3): Aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣāḥ ( BG 9.3)? Prabhupāda: Not that. In Sixteenth Chapter there is verse, that janmani janmani. Devotee (3): Oh. Oh. (break) Prabhupāda: And the Congress procession was organized just in front of my shop. And they are coming, sitting, and then the procession began, the civil disobedience. In 19 . . . 30. Indian man: 1930. Prabhupāda: When the salt protest began. Indian man: In 1938. Prabhupāda: No. Sometimes in 1930, '30 or '31, like that. Indian man: 1931. When are you coming back? Prabhupāda: That I do not know, but there is . . . Indian man: From there? Prabhupāda: I am going to Hardwar. I may be going to Bombay or Bhubaneswar. That Bhubaneswar man came yesterday. I am thinking of constructing a temple there. Indian man: When you go to Bhubaneswar? After you go to Delhi? Prabhupāda: Delhi, I have no immediate program. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There is no fixed program now. Indian man: I would like to help to Delhi . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Immediately I am engaged in so many things. If you like, you can talk only. Indian man: How many go to Delhi . . . (indistinct) . . .? *Prabhupāda: It is stated in this Bhagavad*-gītā that Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ —saintly kings understood. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So this is not meant for the loafer class of men. Rājarṣi. He must be head of the government, at the same time a saintly person. Then he can understand. Indian man: Vaiśiṣṭa. *Prabhupāda: Vaiśiṣṭa. Yes. I have given the Bhagavad*-gītā is only understood by paramparā . So our rājarṣi is . . . practically there is no rājarṣi . Rāja-rṣi. He is called rājarṣi. It is not for loafer class of men. Then people will be benefited. If the head of the state understands that this is essential, then people will be . . . yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). Evetaro janaḥ . Those who are in the subordinate grade, they follow the leaders. So the leaders have given up this science. So how the subordinate class, they will appreciate? They must understand the spirit of Bhagavad-gītā , how it is essential, how people will be happy by following the instruction. Unless rājarṣi understands, how the people? So actually if she wants blessing, the blessing is already there: Bhagavad-gītā . And if she gives some time, we can make her convinced that this is essential. Without this, there is no question of peace and prosperity. There is no question. I think that these contents are essential. All these contents are explained with reference to Bhagavad-gītā , no other. Indian man: Arjuna is the real . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. So vijñāna , the knowledge is given by Kṛṣṇa. And how Arjuna has taken it? If we compare these two things and take it, then it is real success. And if we imagine which is not confirmed by Arjuna or Kṛṣṇa, then that is concoction; it will never help you. That is going on. Everyone is imagining some way of thinking, and that will not help. Indian man: She needs your blessings. Prabhupāda: Ah? Indian man: She needs your blessings. Mrs. Gandhi needs your blessings in her life. A person like you should bless her; she needs . . . Prabhupāda: Personally I welcome this Emergency. I welcome. This autocracy we welcome. But the autocrat must be rājarṣi . Then we can have full faith. If this . . . just like this child. The child sleeps very calmly on the lap of the mother because the child knows that, "I am very safe on the lap of my mother." Is it not? The same child in another's lap, he will cry, because he thinks that, "I am not safe." Similarly, this autocracy, or this Emergency, whatever you call, one man's, what is that, is good provided people think, "Now we are safe." Otherwise it is very serious. Indian man: People have a feeling that they are safe. Prabhupāda: No. I say the people have faith. But to create that faith, one must be very ideal. Indian man: One thing about her, what she is doing is really wonderful but . . . (indistinct) . . . discipline has come. *Prabhupāda: No, this can be done provided she understands Bhagavad*-gītā and introduces the method. Then there will be no more. Indian man: That is why I think a meeting, both of you, and you bless her and advise her . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Blessing is already there, Bhagavad*-gītā —authorized. Even big, big politicians before her . . . I think Jawaharlal Nehru also commented, Discovery of India, Bhagavad-gītā . And Gandhi was accepted, Tilak accepted. They have written something; *therefore they accepted. So why not accept it seriously? Why she is appreciating? That is my point. If you appreciate Bhagavad*-gītā is authority, why not take it seriously? And so far these untouchables, Bhagavad-gītā never says untouchables. Bhagavad-gītā says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonis are untouchable. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . So why not . . . there is no question of untouchable. "Anyone who comes to Me, actually, seriously," te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim . Parāṁ gatim , highest perfection of life, if one goes, then where is pāpa-yoni ? Not only that, in the Bhagavat , Śukadeva Gosvāmī says the caṇḍālas , kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā . . . (indistinct) . . . śudhyanti , they can be cleaned by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So in the śāstra there is sanction. Nārada Muni says in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam (SB 7.11.35). To designate a person to which varṇa he belongs, there is symptom. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not that birth. Never says. That these symptoms, Nārada Muni says, if they are found, anyatra . Suppose the symptoms of a brāhmaṇa is found in a caṇḍāla . That caṇḍāla is no more caṇḍāla . Tat tenaiva vinirdiśet . Because he has acquired the qualification of a brāhmaṇa , he should not be called any more caṇḍāla; he should be called brāhmaṇa . Similarly, a brāhmaṇa , although he is born of a high family, but because he has associated with the qualities of a caṇḍāla , he should be called caṇḍāla . This is śāstric injunction. Śāstra never says by birth, stated like that. And that is practically being accepted. One man's qualification is concerned, not that in which family he is born. There are many instances— satyakam yavala . Indian man: Just . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I am doing practically. Indian man: (indistinct) . . . you should come into the place. People should read about. Like Christians do that. Because this will go a long way, go a long way, that one person has spoke the truth, as it is, as you say—not manufactured. One person, one svāmī , Prabhupāda, spoke the truth. What he explains . . . (indistinct) . . . that this is qualification of the person. Brāhmaṇa could be a caṇḍāla , caṇḍāla could be a brāhmaṇa . That is why this practicing untouchable is a sin, a crime. Don't make . . . *Prabhupāda: There is one verse in which it is said, karmaṇā vaiśyatāṁ gataḥ (SB 9.2.23): by his work he became a vaiśya . Definitely it is said. Like Viśvāmitra. He was kṣatriya , he became brāhmaṇa . Mahārāja Ṛṣabhadeva, He had one hundred sons, kṣatriyas. His eighty*-one sons, they became kṣatriyas , and all others, they became brāhmaṇas . Navayogendra. There are many instances. And they were the king also. There is injuction to the brāhmaṇa that in time of difficulty, the brāhmaṇas , you can accept the position of a kṣatriya , you can accept the position of a vaiśya , but never accept the position of a śūdra . These are the injunctions. Indian man: Why never accept the position of a śūdra ? Why? Prabhupāda: Because that is most abominable. Indian man: I see. *Prabhupāda: It has been described, śūdra's position is just like dog. So you don't degrade to such position. Now if we study from that point of view Kali*-yuga, everyone śūdra. Because śūdra . . . yesterday some gentleman came, he is a physist—what is that? Jagadīśa: Physicist. Prabhupāda: So I said that, "You are a qualified person, but if you don't get a salary, then you cannot live." That is the position of śūdra . Brāhmaṇa , they live independently. Kṣatriya , they live independently. Vaiśya , they live independently. A śūdra cannot live independently. That is dog's position. A dog, if he does not get a good master, it is street dog. Therefore it is forbidden: don't become a dog from vaiśya Indian man: (indistinct) . . . vaiśya , brāhmaṇa . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Therefore I say they are śūdra or less than śūdra . Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ . Kali-yuga. Indian man: (indistinct Hindi) . . . he is Marwari. Prabhupāda: I have seen on the aeroplane one Marwari—no, I shall not say gentleman—(laughter) he was eating intestine of the hog. What is this called? Jagadīśa: Sausage. Prabhupāda: Sausage. And I have heard that when this preparation is made, it emanates so bad odor because it is full of stool—they have to get out stool—and then boil it. Is that palatable? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We have got four rules and regulations. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Jagadīśa: We don't eat any meat, fish or eggs, no intoxication, no illicit sex life, no gambling. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: I want to see that you become a Vaiṣṇava, perfect, ideal. And your family members are very nice; *they can also follow. You have fine daughters, I have seen, very nice. And you are worshiping Bālajī. It is a great fortune. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Yeh Balaji keval namaskar hi kar loge toh tumhara bhaut bhala ho jayega aur kuch na bhi karo. (This is Balaji, if you just only pay obeisances you will be greatly benefitted even if you don't do anything else.) I was very glad to see Bālajī in your house. So bring here. (aside) I do not know who has taken them. Jagadīśa: I'll ask Hari-śauri. Hari-śauri. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, worldwide accepted. Why not India? Aur dusra rasta nahi hai. (There is no other way apart from this.) What is that verse? Jagadīśa: Janmani janmani ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: "Taking repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence." (end) Arrival -- December 20, 1976, Bombay ( kīrtana welcoming Prabhupāda at the Bombay Airport) Hari-śauri: Girirāja? Who's got the baggage? Girirāja: Ah? Hari-śauri: Somebody's got to get the baggage. Girirāja: I'll get it. ( kīrtana ends) Devotees: Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! (in car) Hari-śauri: Look at this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bridge ka neeche se jaoge na? (You will go from under the bridge, will you not?) Prabhupāda: He is leading. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He speaks fluent Hindi, this boy, Bilvamaṅgala. Prabhupāda: He is married Indian wife? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he is the fellow who married that actress's sister. Prabhupāda: They are living together? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they are not living in the temple. They are living outside. They are living together but outside. Prabhupāda: Wife maintaining the husband? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Wife maintaining the husband? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Her family has given them house. . . . nahi*-nahi. (. . . no, no.) (aside) This would have been a shorter cut, I think. Prabhupāda: Whose car this is? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is one of our Life Members' friend's. He is like a devotee, Jasbir. Nanda*-kumāra Mahārāja just arrived with Radha Fahavar (chuckles). Prabhupāda: What is his dress? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is a sannyasi . (chuckles) He arrived this morning in Delhi, this evening in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Hah. Everything is all right? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Everything is going very nicely. We've arranged . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Car is very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice. We made a palanquin, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think it's not very good, so we're . . . how did the meeting go yesterday . . . today? Prabhupāda: Yes, it was very successful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughing) Thanks. Prabhupāda: Crushed. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Crushed. But they won't change, these Māyāvādīs. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . will say that you are not on the right party. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Motorcycle ours? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It's ours, one of our devotees. He lives outside. He has a motorcycle, so I thought he can escort motorcycle first. (calling to somebody) Bele! Hari-śauri: There is red light on the front? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is one red light that doesn't work. Hari-śauri: (indistinct) . . . at least it scares everyone, putting a red light in the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Is there a garage? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is a garage, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the temple where it is being built, and Mr. Gonia told me it will be ready in three or four days. He is getting all cleaned up. So we didn't want to build one because there is one there we can get. I spoke about that today. Our first book which you had told me to prepare showing us as a religious movement, it has come from the printer, looks first class. Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Movement Is Authorized , it's the Indian version. You told me to produce it in Vṛndāvana, it just came from the printers. Looks very, very nice, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And we are doing a similar one with only with s . . . little different, which shows us as a cultural movement. Plane was a little late. Prabhupāda: Yes. One hour. It arrived late. Bombay is always opulent. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: India's first city. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Rādhā*-vallabhā was telling me that he likes Bombay. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I told them him are getting such cheap printing rates we may be moving a lot of printing to Bombay. He said he'll come and stay here. Prabhupāda: You are for the first time to Bombay? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I was only in the airport before. I have never actually seen the temple. Very nice. Prabhupāda: What is the news of Los Angeles? You are coming from Los Angeles or New York? *Rādhā*-vallabha: From Los Angeles. They are having the Christmas distribution now, big book distribution of the year. Prabhupāda: About that opposition movement? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I can't hear. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About the opposition movement. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. The devotees dress up like Santa Claus and go out and distribute books. Now all the other Santa Clauses, the karmī Santa Clauses, are complaining. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: To the police? *Rādhā*-vallabha: So our devotee Santa Clauses are getting arrested. So we had a press conference with the devotee Santa Claus and another devotee preaching to everyone. It was very successful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda meant with the opposition with the parents, that case. Hari-śauri: That court case. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In Chicago? Hari-śauri: No. From Los Angeles, that girl. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In Los Angeles, it's all very favorable. Prabhupāda: Ask him. Hari-śauri: What's happening in Chicago? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Chicago with the boy? Hari-śauri: Yeah. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Rāmeśvara and Satsvarūpa and some others met in Chicago. It's being taken care of. The boy is in Chicago with his mother. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: One of the sadajīs , he rented that bus for the devotees. He's a sadajī but he's like a devotee. He comes every day. Hari-śauri: (discussing quietly, out of Prabhupada's hearing) Harikeśa is GBC for Germany and Eastern Europe. The New York protest is doing all right? The New York protest? *Rādhā*-vallabha: One hasn't happened yet. There's not really much more in New York till the case is solved. You have the manuscripts or does Pradyumna? Hari-śauri: Pradyumna. He had them. He had up to the Sixteenth Chapter is complete, but I don't know how he was going to send them. There is in the Hyderabad farm, so then he didn't come to Wardha with us. He is coming directly to Bombay and his wife. He should be here tomorrow. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We need those manuscripts if we're going to get the book done Hari-śauri: Yeah. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We have finished Eighth Canto, Volume Three. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Eighth Canto, Volume Three is finished. It should be here in a few days. Prabhupāda: Eighth Canto, Part . . .? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Three. Hari-śauri: (aside) There was a book that was sent with some electrical apparatus. It was sent to Delhi, and they can't get it cleared from the Customs. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Electrical appliance? Hari-śauri: Electrical, yeah, that's what they have said. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja knows about it. There were some books, a book that was also sent to Prabhupāda. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Is it cleared? Hari-śauri: No, they can't get it cleared because we have to pay so much duty on it. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Oh, the electrical. Did you get the shaver? Hari-śauri: I got some stuff. The last I got was from Jāmuna. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, did you get the shaver? Hari-śauri: For Prabhupāda? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Hari-śauri: What kind was it? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Well, I wrote it down. I sent you one. Hari-śauri: . . . (indistinct) *Rādhā*-vallabha: That's what it is, then. Hari-śauri: I got another one from . . . *Rādhā*-vallabha: (indistinct) . . . some new books? Did Prabhupada get one through? Hari-śauri: That's what it is then. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They sent you some new books. I just found out from Hari-śauri that they never cleared Customs. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? *Rādhā*-vallabha: First Canto, Part Three. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The reason is you sent them with some electrical apparatus. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It was a new shaver for Prabhupāda. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They wouldn't let you clear it? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Didn't Hari-śauri tell you people not to send any electrical apparatus? Prabhupāda: Yes, they should not be mixed. Hari-śauri: It's almost impossible to get it through Customs. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They mixed up everything. When you leave the country maybe you can clear it out. Hari-śauri: What burnt out was the recharger. *Rādhā*-vallabha: That's all? Hari-śauri: Yeah, the shaver's all right. (laughs) If you can get that shaver and take it back with you, in case you . . . (indistinct) *Rādhā*-vallabha: Oh, right. Hari-śauri: Actually, the recharger's working now again. It was almost burnt out. To get . . . what I wanted was a recharger that works off of 220 volts . . . (indistinct) . . . how's Rakṣaṇa doing? *Rādhā*-vallabha: He's getting his leg amputated. Hari-śauri: Yeah. I sent him a letter, you know, with a picture of Prabhupāda from Paris, and . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- December 22, 1976, Poona Prabhupāda: Because you cannot do like this. Kṛṣṇa says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya ( BG 7.7): "Nobody is superior than Me." That is Kṛṣṇa. Are you able to become superior of everyone? Mr. Malhotra: That is so, but how is that creator? His own creation went against and Kṛṣṇa became after His creation to worship and become devotees of superior . . . Prabhupāda: Isiliye, (That is why,) For this reason Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). One who knows what are the activities of Kṛṣṇa, he is liberated. So, So to understand Kṛṣṇa tattvataḥ , is not possible for ordinary person. Mr. Malhotra: Why this trying to understand Kṛṣṇa? Why not try to understand one's self? Kṛṣṇa passed five thousand years ago. Now ashes are there in our hands. Why not . . . Prabhupāda: That means you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is . . . why Kṛṣṇa? You are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. You are nitya , nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So you are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, you are nitya. Why do you say Kṛṣṇa existed five thousand years ago? He is existing always. Mr. Malhotra: Always existing there. Then the past is . . . (indistinct) . . . within you, within oneself. Prabhupāda: No, no. You are also nitya , but you are part and parcel of that nitya . Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God is nitya , you are also nitya ; God is also living, you are also living. What is the difference between the two? That one person, He is maintaining all of us. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān . So this is knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. God is one. I am also individual. But we are many because we are all living entities. But God is one. We are controlled by God or God's nature. We are not one. Mr. Malhotra: Aren't we the images of God? Prabhupāda: Apart from images . . . that is another thing. That we shall describe later on. First of all you cannot claim that you are God, because you are under the control of material nature. Mr. Malhotra: You said part and parcel of God. Prabhupāda: Part and parcel, just like the finger is part and parcel of my body, but it is not the whole body. Mr. Malhotra: It is the body. Prabhupāda: It is body, you can say that, but part of it. Mr. Malhotra: Part of my body. All enjoined together, it makes the whole body. If it is separated . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. But still you say it is aṅguli (finger). It is not the body. Mr. Malhotra: Aṅguli . (laughs) It is one part, to say many. *Prabhupāda: No. You should be . . . should be senses. Just like this aṅguli , I am asking, "Do like this?" It is my servant. After all, it is part of the body, it is my servant. If it cannot serve my body, then it is diseased. Similarly we are part and parcel of God. If we cannot serve God, that is our diseased condition. The same example: This finger is part and parcel of my body. But I ask finger, "Please come here, to my nostrils." If it cannot do, then it is diseased. It is not in normal condition. So anyone who does not serve the whole, part and whole, he is diseased. He is not in normal condition. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇera dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Therefore because we have forgotten this relationship with God, declared ourself as God, that is diseased condition. Therefore God comes and He orders, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66): "Surrender unto Me. Don't talk nonsense." That is God. So when we agree, that is our perfection. Not to artificially become God, but to agree to serve God. That is liberation. Mr. Malhotra: So what if the drop submerges in the ocean, then the identity of drop vanishes. Prabhupāda: No. Mr. Malhotra: Drop, when drop submerges with the ocean . . . *Prabhupāda: I will give you practical example. Just like you take red water, colored water. So put into the sea, does it mean that sea becomes red? That little spot may be for the time being. Besides that, merging, this is the philosophy of the Māyāvādīs. Actually that is superficial. Just like a bird, green bird, enters into the green tree. You see that bird is vanished. Because the tree is green and the bird is green, you do not know the separate identification. But the bird is there, separate identification. It is not the bird has become zero. A aeroplane goes to the sky, after some time you don't find the aeroplane. That doesn't mean the aeroplane has no more identity, separate. It is separate. It is your defective eyes that you cannot see that it has got separate existence. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that, "I, you and all these kings who are assembled here, we existed in the past, we are now existing, and we shall exist in the future." That means individual existence will continue. He explains past, present and future. So where is imagination? Mr. Malhotra: No imagination. But paraṁ pada , that is nirvāṇa , or whatever . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, paraṁ pada is just like you fly in the sky, go very high. So from here we cannot see that you are separately existing. But you are separately existing. It is my deficient eyes that I see that you are not. Mr. Malhotra: Identification will remain always? *Prabhupāda: Always. Therefore it is said in the śāstra , āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ anādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ , ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninaḥ . . . (SB 10.2.32). It is said, "My Lord, the lotus-eyed, vimukta-mānina , if somebody artificially is thinking that he has become liberated or merged into the existence, āruhya kṛcchreṇa , for which he has undergone very severe tapasya ," āruhya kṛcchreṇa . . . kṛcchreṇa means with great difficulty. Paraṁ padam , brahma-jyotir , patanti adhaḥ , "again he falls down," anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ . . . just like these rascals that are going in the sky to find out a place in the Mars and in the moon. And why they are coming back? If actually one has gone, then why he's coming back? Mr. Malhotra: To tell to the others that they saw something. *Prabhupāda: That's it. Similarly, you will find the so*-called sannyāsīs—not bhaktas —they undergo severe austerities, penances, but after some time they come to the worldly atmosphere. Because they could not get any place, therefore they come down. Just like the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs they say that this duniyā (world), jagat mithyā . If jagat is mithyā , you have left it, then why you come again to give some philanthropic service? If it is mithyā , then why you come again after so much? Is it not nonsense? If jagat is mithyā why you are coming again to this mithyā ? *That means you could not get place in the satya . Therefore you come down again. That is stated in the śāstra. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam (SB 10.2.32). Although with severe austerities and penances might go to the paraṁ pada , patanty adhaḥ , anādṛta*-yuṣmad , because he could not get shelter at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, he falls down. He must fall down to the material activities. Patanty adhaḥ . That is adho patha . As soon as a person, after undergoing severe austerities, becomes very highly elevated in the sannyāsa stage, but if he cannot get shelter at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then surely he shall fall down for these material activities, material enjoyment. That is the sign that he's fallen down. Mr. Malhotra: Lord Kṛṣṇa we have to see in a personal way, have to see the entirety as the . . . Prabhupāda: Lord Kṛṣṇa is everything. Mr. Malhotra: Nirākāra . *Prabhupāda: Why nirākāra ? He says " aham ." Every sentence in the Bhagavad*-gītā , He says " aham ." So how He is nirākāra ? Just like you, you are a person. When you say "I, I can do this," that is a person. Mr. Malhotra: Because I have no other alternative but to communicate. I can communicate only "I" and "you." There is no other way. Prabhupāda: No other way, therefore you are deficient. You cannot claim that you are God. Because you have no other way. You are forced by something. So somebody is controller upon you. Therefore you are different from the God. As you say: "I have no other way," that means you are dependent something else. Mr. Malhotra: But God can communicate differently? *Prabhupāda: Therefore God and you are different. That is dvaita*-vāda . You are different . . . Mr. Malhotra: Why at all this started even? Why at all, say millions, trillions years back, how it started that God created this world? Then all are one and different. Prabhupāda: Who created? Mr. Malhotra: God. Prabhupāda: So God is there. So God . . . you are created or you are subordinate to God? You are also there. So nitya , you are also existing eternally, and God is also eternally existing. But the difference between you and God is that God is maintaining everything and you are being maintained. That is the difference. You are one of the items which is maintained by God. Mr. Malhotra: As long as I continue my identity that, "I am so and so. I am this body," or "I am a person, or ātmā , seated in this body, or dwelling in this body," when I dislodge my body from ātmā , then what is the position? *Prabhupāda: You are different from the body. You are different from the body. You are soul. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This body is temporary, you are eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You are nityaḥ śāśvata . You are never killed, even after the destruction of the body. That should . . . that is real understanding that, "I am not this body. After annihilation of this body, I shall continue." Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). You should know that you are eternal part and parcel of God. God is eternal. Just like gold and a small particle of gold, both of them are gold. A small particle of gold, it is also gold, but not equal to the gold mine. That is real understanding. And because you are little gold . . . Mr. Malhotra: But potentiality? Prabhupāda: Potential different, because a lump of gold and a small particle of gold, the value is not the same. Gold it is quality, but not the value the same. That you cannot say. *Mr. Malhotra: Quality*-wise it is gold, but . . . *Prabhupāda: But quantity it is different. God is all*-pervading. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is all-pervading. He is in everyone's heart. Can you live in everyone's heart? Can you know what I am thinking? Then how you can become God? Mr. Malhotra: Well there are . . . Prabhupāda: There are fools, rascals. There are others. (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: But there are certain people who say that . . . *Prabhupāda: No, who says, they are rascals. They are rascals. We take them as rascals, that's all. How you can say that you are all*-pervading? Can you say that? Even if you are very highly elevated, can you say what I am thinking? Then how do you claim God? God is all-pervading. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). You have read Bhagavad-gītā . There are two kṣetra-jñas . One kṣetra-jña , just like I am, you are. They are kṣetra-jña . I know about my pains and pleasures of my body. You know. But I do not know what is pains and pleasure of your body; *you do not know what is pains and pleasure of my body. Therefore there is difference. But God knows. That is the difference between you and God. How you claim "God"? You do not know what is the pains and pleasures of my body. You know the pains and pleasures of your body. I know the pains and pleasures of my body. But either you or me, we do not know the pains and pleasures of all bodies. And Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata . He knows everyone's pains and pleasure. That is the difference between you and Him. Mr. Malhotra: But this is all right. As long as I maintain my identity . . . Prabhupāda: You have to. If you foolishly think that you have become one, that is your foolishness. Yes. That is foolish thinking. Mr. Malhotra: What if I submerge myself with the entire . . . Prabhupāda: Merge means you do not disagree. That is merge. Do not disagree. Just like when Arjuna was disagreeing, that is his condition, that is his . . . Mr. Malhotra: Identity. Prabhupāda: . . . conditioned identity. And when he agreed, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73)," that is identity of oneness. Mr. Malhotra: Surrender. Prabhupāda: Surrender. That is oneness. Not that individually he has become different. Individually he is, but he does not disagree with Kṛṣṇa. That is oneness. Just like we are sitting, we are of different interests. But so far my disciples are, they will not disagree with me. That is oneness. But he is individual. He was individual, he is individual, and he will continue his individuality. But as soon as he accepts me as the leader, then he is agreement. That is oneness. Mr. Malhotra: Agreement with God is surrender. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). To serve Kṛṣṇa favorably, that is oneness. That is oneness. *Mr. Malhotra: This is bhakti*-yoga . Prabhupāda: Any yoga . You are individual; God is individual. That is already explained, I told you. God says, Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, "Me, yourself and all these people who have gathered, they are all individuals. They were individuals in the past, they are individuals now, and we shall continue to remain individuals in the future." Mr. Malhotra: Even if we surrender. Prabhupāda: Surrender means agreement, that's all. Mr. Malhotra: Agreement. Individuality will all along exist. Prabhupāda: Otherwise why is He asking, "You surrender," unless there is individuality? Why this request is there? Because you are individual, you can deny it. That individuality continues. But if you have love for God, then you agree, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73)." So that is wanted. Not that he lost his individuality. Individuality is there. Mr. Malhotra: Individuality remains. It seems so, that the individuality remains. *Prabhupāda: And this is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says. What Kṛṣṇa says, you have to accept. Otherwise, what is the use of reading Bhagavad*-gītā ? You cannot accept Bhagavad-gītā through your whims. That is nonsense. You must accept as it is. That is wanted. Mr. Malhotra: This Satya Sai Baba, he is also disciple of Kṛṣṇa. How he produces . . .? Prabhupāda: Then if he is disciple of Kṛṣṇa, he would not have foolishly said that he is Bhagavān. That means he is bogus. It is bogus . . . you cannot say . . . if you are disciple . . . just like they are my disciples. They will never say that they are equal to me. They will never say. Mr. Malhotra: No, no, but what power he has got to produce just now . . .? Prabhupāda: That anyone can do, magic, jugglery. It has no meaning. Mr. Malhotra: He got, you know, this money. Prabhupāda: Oh, he can get anything, but that is . . . magic. That is . . . magician also knows. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Professor Sarkar, a big magician, he kills . . . cuts people's body, then he joins them. Prabhupāda: So many things. Magic jugglery is . . . Mr. Malhotra: But there are some siddhis also. These siddhi , siddhis , some people. Prabhupāda: That is siddhi , magic also siddhi . You are successful businessman, that is also siddhi . That is also siddhi. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Even one is siddha , he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. That is said, yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Even one is siddha , still he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: He cannot understand . . .? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: But if he goes to āśrama , that where, and everybody sits there, the big Kṛṣṇa statue is there. In his room, personal room, Kṛṣṇa statue, and he has . . . Prabhupāda: If he is at all devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he will never say that he is Bhagavān. That is foolishness. That very assertion is foolishness. Mr. Malhotra: But Bhagavān, they don't call them Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: That they write in the books. They don't call, but write in the books. Hari-śauri: There was one article in the Blitz where it quoted him saying, "God is man, and man is God." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He said he is the incarnation for this age. Prabhupāda: And where is the evidence? Anyone can say: "I am incarnation." (laughter) Any rascal can say. Mr. Malhotra: Anyone can say. (laughing) *Prabhupāda: What is the proof? Just like this Ramakrishna, he was an illiterate priest, and at the time of his death he said to Vivekananda that, "I am Kṛṣṇa, I am Lord Rāma," and he accepted. He accepted. Ye sab chalta hai. hum bol diya hum bhi bhagvan hain aur hum maan liye, usko kya maloom. ek aadmi bola hum bahut amir aur phata kapda pehna hai hum usko maan le . . . (All this is going on. I say I am God and people will believe, what does he know. One man says I am very rich and wears torn clothes, can we believe him . . .) Let him create one motorcar. Why he's asking, "Please, sir, give me car"? That's all. He is such a great man—bogus. People are foolish persons, they are deviated by these bogus rascals. That is going on . . . sastra me jo hai wo nahi mante hain. Ṣaḍ*-aiśvarya-pūrṇam. bhagvan. Doosre se motor bheek mangta hai wo kaise bhagvan? Hum bolte hai hum bhagvan ka das, wo theek hai . . . (they don't follow what is given in the sastra . Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇam . Bhagavān. They beg from others for living how they can be Bhagavān? But we say we are servant of God, which is right . . .) Mr. Malhotra: Then he is servant, always servant? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nityānām , nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ . . . Servant sabi sochta hai hum kabhi malik ho jaye jo servant hai wo servant jaisa to hai koi malik ko sochne se aur doosre malik ke pas akarke usko pani lane do. (All the servants think, "When will I become the owner." The servant is like a servant, but when he considers himself an owner and orders another owner to get water for him.) Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Jeev ka ye swaroop hai. jo apne ko sochta hai mai bhagvan hoon. (The form of living entity is servant but he thinks "I am God".) That is his foolishness. And foolish person will accept. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Therefore He shall remain the Supreme always. We have to refer to the Vedic śāstras . Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate . This is description of Bhagavān, that He has nothing to do, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate . Uska magic deekha ki bhagvan thode ho jata hai, wo to bhagvan teen mahine ka hai. (If he shows magic he does not become God, that type of God is only for 3 months.) Either he is three months old or three years old or three hundred years old, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate , nobody can be equal or greater than Him. If someone is equal to Him, then how He is Bhagavān? Mr. Malhotra: How it can be that so many sages of the past, they proclaimed ahaṁ brahmāsmi . *Prabhupāda: Brahman. Brahman to hai hi, (You are Brahman,) because you are part and parcel of Parabrahman. That I have already told you, that gold, big gold and small particle, that is gold. Similarly, Bhagavān Parabrahman, and we are part and parcel of Him. Therefore I am Brahman. But I am not Parabrahman. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as Para*-brahman by Arjuna: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Para-brahman. So param , this word is used, Paramātmā, Parabrahman, Parameśvara. Why? That is the difference. One is supreme and one is subordinate. Subordinate Brahman. You are Brahman, there is no doubt of it. But not that Parabrahman. If you are Parabrahman, then why you are making sādhana to become Parabrahman? Why? If you are Parabrahman, then you are Parabrahman always. Why you have fallen in this condition that you have to perform sādhana to become Parabrahman? That is foolishness. You are not Parabrahman. You are Brahman. You are gold, a small particle. But you cannot say that "I am gold mine." That you cannot do. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So he is checking if it is time to go out . . . are you going to come with us also? Very good. Prabhupāda: Bring little water. These my disciples, they are part and parcel of me. Whole mission is going on with their cooperation. But if he says that, "I am equal to my Guru Mahārāja," then that is offense. Mr. Malhotra: Suppose guru desires that my disciple should rise higher than me. Prabhupāda: That means he is in lower stage. That you have to accept first of all. Mr. Malhotra: Like as a father sees that his children grow. Prabhupāda: Yes, still father begets father, and a child cannot become father. Mr. Malhotra: Father begets father, but he feels that he may . . . will progress . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Father may want to see that the son is equally qualified, but still the father is father, and child is child. That is perpetual. Similarly, a part and parcel of God may be very powerful, but that does not mean that he has become God. Mr. Malhotra: Other traditions, guru disciple, then the disciple becomes guru , then disciple. The gurus may change. Prabhupāda: They cannot change. If there are change of guru , the disciple acts. But does not . . . he'll never say that, "I have become equal or one with guru ." That is not so. Mr. Malhotra: I am thinking about this, Swāmījī, that your Guru Mahārāja is preaching through you, and you are preaching through them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: So disciple is guru through his disciples. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam (BG 4.2). But that does not become . . . he has become. He may be representative of guru , representative of God, but it does not mean that he has become God. Mr. Malhotra: But he becomes guru to his disciples. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Mr. Malhotra: Never equal to his guru . Prabhupāda: Not equal; representative. Not equal. I send one representative of this man, and he may be very expert, doing very good business, still he cannot be equal with me. He is acting as my representative, that's another thing. But not that he has become the original proprietor. Mr. Malhotra: But as your disciples, you are taken as guru . Prabhupāda: But they will never say that they have become equal with me, "I have advanced to be my guru ." Never say. Just like this boy, he is offering obeisances. He may be expert in preaching more than me, but he knows that, "I am subordinate." Otherwise, how he shall offer obeisances? He can think, "Oh, now I am so learned. I am so advanced. Why shall I accept him as superior?" No. That continues. Even after my death, after my disappearance, he will offer obeisances to my picture. Mr. Malhotra: But amongst his disciples he will be worshiped . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, but he remains a disciple of his guru . He will never say that, "Now I have become guru , so I don't care for my guru ." He will never say. Just like I am doing, but I am worshiping my guru still. So I remain subordinate to my guru , always. Even though I have become guru , still I am subordinate to my guru . Mr. Malhotra: But qualitatively . . . Prabhupāda: Qualitatively equal, I have already said. Not quantitatively. Mr. Malhotra: Qualitatively we are one. Quantitatively. Prabhupāda: Why? Do you think a grain of gold and a big gold lump is same? Mr. Malhotra: Gold, I think I am also gold. Prabhupāda: No, gold that is accepted, quality. That if you say . . . this is explanation—you must have brain to understand—that a small particle of gold and a big gold, they are gold in quality, but the big gold is millions of dollars and a small particle is few dollars. Just see. This is accepted. This Māyāvāda theory has made people atheists, that "I am God, I am equal to God." Very bad theory. Mr. Malhotra: From where these things also come? From where it comes? *Prabhupāda: From the Vedas . Vedas says, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate, Upaniṣads. Na tat*-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (CC Madhya 13.65, purport; Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8). *Mr. Malhotra: Who gives this asura*-buddhi ? From where this dirty, filth grows? *Prabhupāda: Asura*-buddhi and sura-buddhi , due to our little independence. Just like we are talking. So we do not agree; *therefore we are talking. So one of us may be asura and one may be sura . Therefore we do not agree. Otherwise, there is no use of talking. So that is natural. That is the conditioned stage. Because we are conditioned by the material nature, some of us are asuras and some of them are suras. Dvau bhūta*-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca (BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva , devatā , and asura . Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ smṛto daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ (Padma Purāṇa). Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are devatā , and just opposite number is asura . *Who does not recognize the authority of God, he is asura . He himself becomes God foolishly. That is not God. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ (BS 5.52). Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā . This, about the sun, description in the Brahma-saṁhitā. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ , unlimited potency, energy, heating energy. Such a powerful planet. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ . Still it is carrying out the order of somebody. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi : "I offer my obeisances to Govinda." But if I say I am equal to Govinda, I can stop sun, "Don't bother me by heating. Stop," will it become . . .? Then how I become all-powerful? Let me stop the activities of the sun. Or at night there is no sun, can I ask the sun, "Get up. I want light immediately"? Is it possible? Then how I become the God? Nobody cares for my order. Mr. Malhotra: They say those who know their Bhāgavata , they call themselves Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: That anyone can say, that "I know my Bhāgavata ." Nobody knows. I am Bhagavān but nobody cares for me. What kind of Bhagavān? It is rascal Bhagavān. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When Bhagavān has a toothache he goes to the dentist. Prabhupāda: Yes, when there's a toothache he goes to the doctor. These kind of nonsense has to be stopped. Otherwise people become atheists. "Anyone can become God, anyone can become Bhagavān." Mr. Malhotra: This Rajneesh, I tell you, he has . . . Prabhupāda: I don't say about Rajneesh because I have no acquaintance with him, but anyone says that he is Bhagavān, he can do anything. Mr. Malhotra: Somebody asked him, "Why you claim to be God, or Bhagavān?" He clarified that "It is not the creator or the equal Bhagavān. I know by . . . I have realized by . . ." Prabhupāda: But God says "I am the creator of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). This is Bhagavān. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can go, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. We will go to the car. (break) (in car) . . . to the sun planet, beginning is the sunshine. Mr. Malhotra: Yes, beginning is the sunshine. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, to go to the Absolute Truth, you begin with impersonal Brahman. Just as sunshine is impersonal, but everyone can see the sunshine is coming from the sun surface. Everyone knows that. Therefore the sunshine is not so important as the sun globe. Similarly brahma-tattva-nirviśeṣa , nirākāra-brahma is there, but more important than is the localized aspect. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61). God is all-pervading. The sunshine is all-pervading, and as Paramātmā He is also all-pervading. But if you can enter into the sun globe, you will meet with the sun-god. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā , imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke this philosophy to the sun-god." So there is sun-god. Sun-god and the sun globe and the sunshine, they are one, but different stages of understanding. Similarly, Brahman understanding, Paramātmā understanding, then the Supreme Personality of Godhead understanding. Advaya-jñāna. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). But if you stop simply in the sunshine, that means you have no knowledge of the sun*-god or the sun globe. If you have simply knowledge of the sun globe, then you are not aware of what is the sun-god. But if you know sun-god, then you know what is sun globe and the sunshine. That is wanted. That is perfect knowledge. *Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). When, after many many births, when one is actually in knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, understanding that Kṛṣṇa is everything, that mahātmā is sudurlabha , very rare. Somebody knows only impersonal Brahman, the jñānīs . Somebody knows the Paramātmā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe (BG 18.61). And one who knows Kṛṣṇa, he is perfect. (break) . . . this stage of understanding Kṛṣṇa, your knowledge is imperfect. (break) . . . śāstras , but unfortunately we do not refer to the authority of the śāstras . We manufacture our own way. Mr. Malhotra: No, actually what has happened is that there has been too many interpretations. Prabhupāda: There cannot be interpretations. Mr. Malhotra: No, there are certain people . . . Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Mr. Malhotra: That is what I said, huh. So there are so many interpretations that you get confused. Because of the same thing, some interpret, say, a different way. *Prabhupāda: One thing is that you have to become intelligent. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Now why I shall accept interpretation on these plain words? That is my foolishness. If somebody says, " dharma-kṣetra means this body and Pāṇḍava means the five senses," why this nonsense interpretation? If you are not intelligent, then you will accept such rascals interpreting unnecessarily. Interpretation is required when things are not very clear. But when the things are clear, why you should accept interpretation? That is my foolishness. There is no need of interpretation. (break) . . . is it still there? Why, if the rascal interprets, "Kurukṣetra means this body," why shall I accept it? Kurukṣetra is still there. There is no difficulty to understand. And if somebody interprets . . . (break) . . . interpretation, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that as soon as you interpret, the whole thing is lost. So why shall I be so foolish, I shall accept something which is lost? Mr. Malhotra: No. Rather, Kṛṣṇa had His own interpretation. Prabhupāda: That may be, but why shall I accept? Mr. Malhotra: . . . had His own interpretation rather. All the people who share . . . *Prabhupāda: You have, interpretation, you have to refer to the Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā says as soon as you accept interpretation, it is lost. Mr. Malhotra: Then the meaning is lost. Prabhupāda: Bās . So under the circumstances . . . that means I am also foolish. Any rascal gives any interpretation—I accept. That is my foolishness. So why should I become foolish? Radhakrishnan may be very big man, but if he does something wrong, he will be hanged. *Mr. Malhotra: No, he . . . ślokas are there. All the Bhagavad*-gītā ślokas are there. Prabhupāda: But I must have intelligence that why this rascal is interpreting in a different way. Mr. Malhotra: And Sanskrit is the language. So it has got the same . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not very difficult. Just like in the Ninth Chapter, Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). And Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Why? Kṛṣṇa says, "Just think of Me— man-manāḥ —just become My devotee, and just offer Me obeisances, worship Me." It is plain language. And if some rascal says: "No, no, it is not to Kṛṣṇa," why shall I accept it? Mr. Malhotra: It is not the personified Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: You have read it? Mr. Malhotra: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, you see. I shall immediately detect that here is a rascal. Because Kṛṣṇa says personally, and he says it is not to the person. Just see. Mr. Malhotra: But Kṛṣṇa had been on this earth in flesh and bones. *Prabhupāda: That is history, Mahābhārata . And all the ācāryas , they have accepted—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka. Svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me (BG 10.13). Arjuna accepts Him, Para*-brahman. You are Para-brahman. Not that "Because I am Your friend and I am accepting You as Para-brahman," but all the ācāryas , they have accepted. (break) . . . mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam . "Because I am talking with you as a human being, only rascals, they think I am human being." If you think Kṛṣṇa as having flesh and bone, then you become a rascal, immediately. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam , paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11): "I am not made of this bone and flesh. I am cinmaya , I am fully spirit soul." So one who does not know it, he is a rascal. So as soon as you will say that He is made of bone and flesh, that means you are rascal. (laughter) Why shall I hear you? Mr. Malhotra: When Lord Kṛṣṇa came into being, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: That does not mean that . . . suppose I am here. I am driving with you. But there is difference between you and me. So Kṛṣṇa comes as human being, that does not mean He is human being. Why don't you understand this? Mr. Malhotra: That is okay. But from the normal, you know . . . Prabhupāda: That is your study. That is foolish study. Therefore He says avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11): "The rascals think that I am one of the human being." If he is one of the human being, how he can say, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). In the human society, there are big men, you are big man, I am small man, he is still more, he is still more, he is still bigger. There are so many varieties. But He says: "No more superior than Me." And that is God. Mr. Malhotra: No one is supreme than Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: That He says, of course. Prabhupāda: He says everything, but because we are foolish we do not hear Him. That is the difficulty. Mr. Malhotra: We don't understand Him. Prabhupāda: No, we understand. But we do not accept it. Mr. Malhotra: We don't accept it. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty to understand? God is superior. Everyone knows it. But I will not accept, he will not accept. Unless one is superior, how He can be God? (break) . . . sevayā . Therefore you have to find out somebody who knows Him. Otherwise you will be in darkness. (break) *Mr. Malhotra: (indistinct Hindi) . . . over bridge. But where we are going, Ambleshwar, from there Kṛṣṇā*-nadī starts. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Kṛṣṇā*-nadī is for us. Mr. Malhotra: From Ambleshwar. Then there is old, old mandir, very old mandir, temple, there are five, they say, five nadīs are coming. Prabhupāda: Oh, Kaumuda, Kāverī . . . Mr. Malhotra: Kṛṣṇā, Kāverī, Veṇā . . . five rivers, they say, they flow from there. We will go there. Tomorrow morning we'll go there. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . just now. In the morning it was little cold. Now it is very pleasing. Mr. Malhotra: It is. But since you have been going all over the Europe and Am . . . you must be accustomed to cold. It is severe cold. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I was going to morning walk when there was snowfall. I was walking on snow. Mr. Malhotra: Actually when snow falls it is not very cold, but when there is breeze, then it is very unbearable. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. (break) Mr. Malhotra: . . . the first month, I think, except April and May. All the rest months. Prabhupāda: All the year. Mr. Malhotra: May is quite hot, and April . . . Prabhupāda: Beginning. Mr. Malhotra: Not beginning. Middle of April to May and June. Then in June rain starts. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . legislation that fifty percent of revenues was spent in military. Bhaya*-vitta . (break) Mr. Malhotra: Tad guru vijñāta . . . Prabhupāda: Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). *Mr. Malhotra: Guru*-vijñāna . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: No. This is Vedic injunction. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Abhigacchet , this word is used. This means "must," vidhi*-liṅ . This is the form of vidhi-liṅ , in grammar. Vidhi-liṅ is applied when there is no question of duality. You must. If you want to know that transcendental science, you must approach guru . Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham . And who is guru ? Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam. Śrotriyam means one who is guru by hearing from his guru , śrotriyam . This is paramparā . Not that all of a sudden he becomes guru . No. That is not guru . Guru means śrotriyam. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). And after hearing perfectly from his guru , he is brahma-niṣṭham . Just like Arjuna, after hearing from Kṛṣṇa, his guru , he became devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Not became, he was devotee. Still he became perfect devotee. Brahma-niṣṭham . This is the guru's qualification. *And in another, the Bhāgavata it is said, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). One must surrender to guru who is actually inquisitive, yes, about the Absolute Truth. What kind of inquisitive? Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam : the best aim of life or transcendental aim of life. He requires guru . Then what is guru' s qualification? The next line is that tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam, śābde pare ca niṣṇātam (SB 11.3.21). Guru is completely in awareness of all the Vedic knowledge. That is guru . Not a loafer class. (laughter) Śrotriyam . One who has heard perfectly Vedas from his guru . And what is the symptom that he has heard from the authority of the . . .? Brahma*-niṣṭham. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . The symptom is that he has completely taken shelter of the Supreme Brahman, rejecting or finishing all material desires. No more material desires. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . He has taken shelter of Brahman, upaśama , rejecting—no more hankering after anything material. Mr. Malhotra: No more hankering. But he has to eat. He has to eat, he has to clothe. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not hankering. That is not hankering. Mr. Malhotra: The minimum needs of the body. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so long the body is there. That is wanted. Just like about the Gosvāmīs it is said, nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . One has to conquer over sleeping, eating, sex and fearing. A saintly person has no fearing, because he depends on Kṛṣṇa. But these things particularly conquered over. Simply little eating, that's all. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi . At least trying to conquer over sleeping, eating and sex. Mr. Malhotra: Sleeping, eating and . . . Prabhupāda: Sex life. (break) Mr. Malhotra: . . . sleeping at all, or some little sleep? Prabhupāda: Practically no sleeping. Practically no eating and no sex life. Mr. Malhotra: Sleeping means actual sleeping or awareness, I mean awakening of the mind or awakening . . . Prabhupāda: No, actual sleeping. Sleeping means waste of time. So long you sleep, it is a waste of time. Better reduce sleep. Mr. Malhotra: But you have to sleep sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes, some, some. Mr. Malhotra: Some part of the day or part of the . . . Prabhupāda: That also you will find, those who are highly elevated, they can avoid. Mr. Malhotra: They can completely avoid sleeping? Hundred percent? Prabhupāda: No. They can, but they do not show like that. (laughter) Otherwise, artificially one would like to imitate it. Mr. Malhotra: But in the medical theory they are saying so much insomnia. Prabhupāda: No insomnia, he becomes mad. (laughter) That is another thing. That is disease. Hari-śauri: One of my parents' friends, she hadn't been to sleep for seven months because of a nervous condition when she was going crazy. I saw that. Mr. Malhotra: There must be sleeping pills. Prabhupāda: Yes, in Western countries, tranquilizer. Mr. Malhotra: I was in America, you know. So in New York I stayed in one hotel, and every evening, that bellboy, he was keeping two tablets for each of us in the room. Actually, I don't know what type of tablets they have done. We have slept thoroughly. In the morning he came to make the bedding. So he said, "Sir, you have not taken these tablets?" I said: "What are these tablets?" "Sleeping pills." I said, "No, I don't take it." "And you could sleep?" I said: "Yes." Then he said: "Can I have these?" "Yes, yes, you can have by all means." (laughter) So he took away all the pills for his own use. So I mean most of the people, they can't sleep without these sleeping pills. Their mind is so agitated and so disturbed. This material . . . *Prabhupāda: Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyām , in the śāstra it is said: "In the material world everyone is always full of anxiety." Full of anxiety. Mr. Malhotra: The more you're engrossed in material things, the more anxiety you are in. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained. Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because he has accepted something which is asat—asat means which will not endure, such things—on account of this, he is always full of anxieties. Asat , this body is asat . Asad-grahāt . Because we have accepted this material body, we must be always full of anxieties. Asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). Although this body is temporary, still, so long the body is there, he will suffer. Kleśada . Kleśada means always giving trouble—this trouble, that trouble, this trouble, that trouble. Mr. Malhotra: This road straight leads to Bangalore, Madras. This road goes to south, entire south. You can go by this road only to Kanyakumari. Prabhupāda: Oh! Mr. Malhotra: Yes, Cape Comorin, right up to Calicut. Prabhupāda: And all the tīrthas are on the four sides. Very good road? Mr. Malhotra: Last year in the month of December I went to Rāmeśvaram. Prabhupāda: On this road? Mr. Malhotra: On this road. Of course, I went by air to Bangalore, and from there we went by car. But this road goes straight. (break) . . . by car, to Calcutta by air, then from there to that Bhubaneshwar by train, and then from there by car, like that. (break) It is very small place, Dvārakā. It is very small place, and in that leak was, an entire area was destroyed completely. Even communications could not be restored for three months. But Dvārakā itself was untouched completely. But on the way we found, because we went by car from here, we found roads, everything was destroyed completely. You could see demolished, the tops of houses gone away in the cyclone. Prabhupāda: Maharashtra Province is rich? I don't think so. Mr. Malhotra: It is like this, that Maharashtra is industrially quite stable. But that only Bombay and one, two cities. The rest of the Maharashtra is poor. There is not much cultivation. Prabhupāda: But industry, it belongs to the other persons, not to the Maharashtrians. Mr. Malhotra: Hmm? Prabhupāda: All these Bombay industries, they belong to the outsiders. *Mr. Malhotra: Outsiders. Now in Punjab, for instance, now they have created sufficient wheat to cater the entire country. That is four*-fifths of the total need of the country of wheat is supplied by Punjab. Prabhupāda: But it is always. Mr. Malhotra: Punjab and Haryana, now they are two, but both together. Prabhupāda: Punjab is the best province in India. Mr. Malhotra: You know we came and settled in Poona after partition of the country. Previously we were in Rawalpindi. (to the driver) Kya kar rahe ho bhai? (What are you doing brother?) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . on my way to Kashmir. Mr. Malhotra: Yes, because at Rawalpindi you could get taxi, then buses. After Rawalpindi you have to go by train. Then from there you could get car, taxi, and in those days there were yakas also. You know. Tongas. Tongas or buses. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . young age when I was twenty*-five years. (break) . . . via Jammu. Mr. Malhotra: Jammu, Jammu and Kashmir. Prabhupāda: Yes. And I came back via Rawalpindi. Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā , you came back via Rawalpindi. (break) You have, I mean, thought of spiritual bending, or spiritual . . . *Prabhupāda: No, we are trained up, because we belong to Kṛṣṇa family. So Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship is our family tradition. Our forefathers, my father, my maternal uncles, we are Vaiṣṇava family, belonging to the Caitanya- sampradāya . Mr. Malhotra: But how you entered in business, I mean. Prabhupāda: Because we were trained up from the very beginning of our life by our father, mother. Mr. Malhotra: Grandfather also? *Prabhupāda: Yes, our whole family. We have our family Deity, Dāmodara. In my childhood I was worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities. And then, fortunately, I got my Guru Mahārāja, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. So this was a good fortune, from the very beginning we were trained up. So in the beginning of our life, I was worshiping Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and playing with Ratha-yātrā. The same thing is being done now, in a larger scale. (laughter) Nitya yukta upāsate . There is no change. *Mr. Malhotra: People must be very curious in California when this Ratha*-yātrā, Jagannātha. They must be very curious. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But they enjoy very much. They enjoy very much. Those who are even not my students, they also come to me, "Thank you, Prabhupāda. Thank you, Prabhupāda." They say like that. They enjoy very much, dance like anything, when the Ratha*-yātrā goes. They say: "It is life." They are dancing. "This is life. We do not know what is happening, but we are dancing." They say like that. Mr. Malhotra: Dancing, this ballroom dancing? *Prabhupāda: No, around the road, Hare Kṛṣṇa dancing. (laughter) There is no need of ballroom. They become mad, dancing. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana*-gāna-nartana-parau . That is ecstasy. So when the ecstasy is there, they understand this is life. (break) Mr. Malhotra: Mr. Biyani, Biyani. He is just Birla's tea company chairman looking after tea. Last time I was in Delhi about two months back, so I just talked about you that I had to meet you and we could go to Vṛndāvana. Because at that time I was told that you were there. So he knew you very well; he had been to your discourses, Mr. Biyani. He's Marwari. They are in Calcutta, that tea business, export tea business. We agreed on one this thing, that it is very easy, rather, to make Indians understand the spiritual teachings of Lord Kṛṣṇa, because in homes, in houses, forefathers, grandmothers, mothers, they are doing, I mean, always. But to, I mean, impart this knowledge to the . . . Prabhupāda: Foreigners. Mr. Malhotra: Foreigners, and that to who have more or less completely, I mean, very much away from the spiritual life, very much engrossed in material life, very much engrossed. And it was something very, very, very difficult, right? Without the blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Therefore their fathers are charging me that "This man knows something, mesmerism." (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: Their fathers are charging with that this man knows some mesmerism. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Brainwash. Mr. Malhotra: Brainwash, ācchā. How you entered in their hearts? Prabhupāda: Mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Mr. Malhotra: Hare Kṛṣṇa mesmerism. That is also mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . *Prabhupāda: Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). This is the process of cleansing the heart. So if it is done properly, everyone becomes cleansed of all dirty things. Naturally he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. Mr. Malhotra: I was rather very much surprised when I first met, Prabhupāda, about four or five devotees on the streets of this Honolulu, Honolulu first. Because I went from this side, Japan, Hong Kong, Thailand, and then entered in America through Honolulu, Hawaii. So when I went I was just in the morning, I was trying to get the tourist bus for moving in the whole city to see. And then on the main road, you know that main road . . . have you been to Honolulu? Prabhupāda: No. He has gone. Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā . You have been to Honolulu? Hari-śauri: Yeah. Mr. Malhotra: Five devotees were having drums, this khol , they were dancing like, I mean, in their own mood, you know. So then I had a curiosity. I just stopped one of them and I said: "Well, mister, I would like to know about all this." He said, "Yes, you come to our temple in the morning and we'll tell you all about it." But I said that, "What you are doing?" "We are playing kīrtana ." I said, "Well, why you are out on the streets?" "Because these all demons. These are all demons, you know." Prabhupāda: Demons. Mr. Malhotra: ". . . demons, you know. So those who do not have any spiritual knowledge, so we want to penetrate in their ears, and through their ears in their hearts, the name of Kṛṣṇa. So that even if they don't like it, well, the Kṛṣṇa name should enter in their hearts." Prabhupāda: That is . . . this mantra . . . Mr. Malhotra: "So that is what we are doing. So even if they don't like it we are doing. So whosoever is passing by, he will have at least his ears will be accustomed to hear the name of Lord Kṛṣṇa." I said: "But in *Gītā* it is said that those who do not wish to know the true knowledge, well, it is forbidden for the devotees or for the followers to tell them anything about spiritual knowledge." "So that, sir, we are not giving, imparting knowledge to each individual by catching them. We are just playing ourselves. So whosoever likes it, he can stand by us. Otherwise we are not . . ." So they replied also correctly to this also. Prabhupāda: Yes, and Kṛṣṇa says . . . Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā , then I said: "What is this?" "This is śikhā ." I said: "Well what it is meant for?" So he said: "Well, this is the . . ." What he told me was this exactly, that the aerial of knowledge. He said that this is the aerial of knowledge. I said: "Is it your own interpretation?" "No, but I think that I feel that way. This is the aerial of knowledge." (break) . . . that, "You come have prasādam in the morning." So next day we had to leave actually. So we were in the morning busy going to airport. Then I met in this New York. Then when I came to Europe, then I was sitting in one restaurant in London, and then a big group of about 15, 18, 20 devotees, they were having a good chanting, and they were . . . Prabhupāda: Our men regularly go on the Oxford St. Mr. Malhotra: Yes, Oxford. On that street only there was Indian restaurant where this rasagullās and tea and all that is available. So we were sitting having our this thing, and then they passed. Prabhupāda: Our men, they can prepare rasagullā , samosā , kachorī . Mr. Malhotra: Now this Bombay center, when I visited, Girirāja he showed me, and the restaurant, that vegetarian restaurant which will be coming up, that is good. (break) . . . I mean is it regular new films are being made, or only one or two films have been made so far? Girirāja: We make more films. Hari-śauri: There's another one just coming up now which explains the philosophy in more detail. The films were to show general activities, that was The Hare Kṛṣṇa People. The new film was to show the farming scheme that Prabhupāda set up in New Vrindavan, and many other farms we have now. And there was one other film to show how the books are produced and then delivered to the public. So gradually more and more are coming out. Mr. Malhotra: You know one thing I have found that there is spotless cleanliness, you know, in the centers. Whereas in our temples here in India, even when we go to say Hardwar and Rishikesh and all these, the temples, the outer cleanliness, not proper emphasis is given by the management. Prabhupāda: I stress on this cleanliness very much. If they keep unclean, I chastise them like anything. (laughing) They have learned this art. I always say, "Cleanliness is next to godliness." *Mr. Malhotra: About two years back, two, three of your devotees came to our house here. Naturally we offered them, "Would you like to have coffee, tea?" They said: "No." Then we said: "Would you like to have Coca*-cola?" They said, "No." Then I said: "What would you like to have? Milk?" "Yes." Lassi , chach ? "Yes." Fruit. "Yes." It happened so that Girirāja came to us twice, and twice it was this ekādaśī . Now ekādaśī day they are not supposed to eat this wheat or flour or anything. So when last we came to Mahabaleshwar, so we brought some paraṭās with this gobi in it. Prabhupāda: Ekādaśī . Mr. Malhotra: We didn't know about ekādaśī . When we came to Mahabaleshwar, we opened. They said: "No, we can't eat because it is ekādaśī ." So we thought that, "No, you won't eat, so it looks odd that we should eat." But we were very hungry, you know. In the morning we didn't take anything. We said: "All right, we eat, now we will go to the bazaar and see if we could get something." Then we went to Mahabaleshwar, it was all closed, because it was raining season. And then there was one shop which had bananas, you know, good amount of bananas. So we took one dozen or two dozen bananas, and then . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: Banana is very good. You can make banana and potato. Potato boil and mixed with banana, and make nice purī . And then . . . *Mr. Malhotra: How Girirāja, I just ask you, how you sort of took to all these good things, I would say, of life? I mean in natural form, or with some self*-discipline, or with some coercion, or with some what? Girirāja: It was Prabhupāda's mercy. I was looking for a guru . Actually, whenever I heard there was a svāmī or a yogī , I would always go, even hundreds of miles. But I was never satisfied. But Śrīla Prabhupāda perfectly satisfied all of my questions. And I liked the process—chanting, dancing, taking prasādam , offering ārati —and I liked the devotees. It was very pleasing. So I immediately decided this is my real life. Mr. Malhotra: No, but not taking any wheat, like on ekādaśī day, all such things, I mean. Girirāja: That's training. Once we surrender to the spiritual master, then he trains us in the process of spiritual life. *Prabhupāda: Sādhu*-mārgānugamanam. Ādau gurvāśrayaṁ sad-dharma-pṛcchāt sādhu-mārgānugamanam . These are the process. *Mr. Malhotra: Sādhu*-mārga . *Prabhupāda: Sādhu*-mārga . Girirāja: We study the śāstras every morning and evening in all of our centers, so we become educated. (break) Prabhupāda: Four places: Hardwar, Prayāga, Vṛndāvana . . . Mr. Malhotra: But after every eleven years or . . .? Prabhupāda: No. It comes in rotation, every four years. *Mr. Malhotra: Every four years. So there are sort of ardha*-kumbhīs and then kumbha . *Prabhupāda: Yes. In Allahabad they actually hold every year, Māgha*-mela . *Mr. Malhotra: Māgha*-mela . But this is not every year, this time people are . . . Prabhupāda: It is very, I mean to say, atmosphere becomes surcharged. Great spiritual advancement. Very nice. Mr. Malhotra: Abhi 15 tarik ko wahan par kuch hai kuch, aap ja rahe hain, kab jayenge? (On 15th there is some event happening there. Are you going? When are you going?) Prabhupāda:': ' Jayenge 15 tarik tak. aap aaiye. (Yes I will go around 15th.) Prabhupāda: Iran is like that, but no green, simply sand. Mr. Malhotra: They are the mountains of Deccan. They say that these all mountains were under sea. *Prabhupāda: Yes, everything was . . . pralaya*-payodhi-jale dhṛtavān asi vedam . (break) *Mr. Malhotra: Swamiji yahan par bhi south me bade ache*-ache mandir hain. (Swamiji, here also in the South there are very good temples.) (break) . . . for quite some time at a particular spot. This spot was shown to us. And people have very great reverence for that spot. So now, at one time we accept Lord Rāma the supreme master of a particular yuga , and then He had to worship Lord Śiva. So who is, I mean, supreme? Lord Śiva or Lord Rāma? Prabhupāda: Lord Rāma is the Lord. Śiva is devotee. Sometimes you wash the feet of your son. That does not mean you are a servant Mr. Malhotra: Sometime . . .? Prabhupāda: You wash the feet of your son. But that does not mean you are a servant of the son. Kṛṣṇa . . . why Rāma? Kṛṣṇa, when Sudāmā Vipra came to His house, He washed his feet. Mr. Malhotra: Sab bhakton ke bhagat. (The supreme of all the devotees.) *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa immediately got down from His siṁhāsana and took his lotus . . . touch his feet. And Nārada Muni was smiling. Nara*-līlā. Mr. Malhotra: Nārada Muni was smiling. Ye bhagvan kya kar rahe hain? (What is God doing?) Prabhupāda: Nārada Muni knew it that He is the Supreme Lord, but he did not check it. Mr. Malhotra: He let Lord Kṛṣṇa bow. This is the biggest paradox. *Prabhupāda: Mad*-bhakta-pūjābhyadhika (SB 11.19.21). Kṛṣṇa is pleased when His devotee is worshiped. Kṛṣṇa kabhi-kabhi radharani ka payr choota hai. (Kṛṣṇa sometimes touches the feet of Radharani.) Mr. Malhotra: Now I went to Dvārakā Purī, so there is Bheda Dvārakā in the sea. One is Dvārakā Purī, then about, I think, ten, twelve miles away there is Bheda Dvārakā. At Bheda Dvārakā, that is the residential palace of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and seven rāṇīs of Lord Kṛṣṇa. They show each building, their whole building. So what was that? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa had 16,108 queens. Mr. Malhotra: 16,108 queens. 16,108. But there they show only, I think, 8 or 7. Prabhupāda: All are described, that He had 16,000 palaces. And Nārada Muni came to see Him, what He is doing actually. He saw different activities, and Kṛṣṇa expanded Himself to 16,108. Each rāṇī had ten sons, Mr. Malhotra: Each rāṇī had ten sons. *Prabhupāda: And they had sons also. In this way the Yadu*-vaṁśa was crores. Mr. Malhotra: There was one story that Lord Kṛṣṇa was going on rath (chariot), and then He had to be at the place of horse of the rath because of some śhrap (curse) of some muni. That is given there.Idhar bhuma do. (Turn around here.) (break) So we get frustrated. But where the first apple came? Where the very seed of first apple planted on this earth planet? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bījo 'haṁ sarva*-bhūtānām (BG 7.10). Kṛṣṇa answered this question. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām : "I am the original seed of everything." Mr. Malhotra: Otherwise, it is very difficult, that wherefrom the very first seed came. Prabhupāda: And He says another place: *Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). Everything is answered in Bhagavad*-gītā . (break) There is river, there is fountain . . . Mr. Malhotra: River, fountain . . . (indistinct) . . . volumes. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . written by D. L. Raya. Dhana dhanyo puspa bhara amader ei vasundhārā . . . (indistinct) . . . hari hari āche. Tāhar majhe āche deśe eka sakala deśe sera . "Out of all these countries, there is a first*-class country, and that is my country, India." Dhana dhanyo puspa bhara amader ei vasundhārā , Tāhar majhe āche deśe eka sakala deśe sera . So the India is sakala deśe sera , the best of all other countries. Indian man: best of all countries. Aisa kyon hai, Indai ko hi shreya mile sara. (Why is it that India gets all the credit?) All saints . . . *Prabhupāda: No, actually, India is the best country. There is no doubt. Even these boys, they say India is the best. Puṇya*-bhūmi . Religion agar study karna hai to India. sab communist ko sikhate hain (If you want to study religion then go to India. They teach all the communists) that "If you want to study religion, then go to India." These boys of Western countries, they come to India not to learn the so-called science. They have enough in their country. They do not come here how to manufacture aeroplane. Mr. Malhotra: For technology we have to go there. Prabhupāda: There is no need. Indian man: No need. Prabhupāda: It is simply bogus. The first thing you require . . . you have got this body. You have to eat something and you have to dress yourself. You can get from this land. Keep some cows, grow your agricultural product, and sow cotton, then all economic problem is solved. And save time and understand what is your relationship with God. That is India. This is Vedic civilization. Mr. Malhotra: This era happened in the past similar. Prabhupāda: India is based on this principle. Mr. Malhotra: In every era demons and good people must be. Prabhupāda: That is there. Mr. Malhotra: Always must be there. The ratio may be different. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: Bad and good, mātra may be different. Prabhupāda: But India is especially meant for understanding God. That is India's . . . just like this place, such a nice place, automatically you'll remember God. Mr. Malhotra: You will like this place, this Panchgani, where we are going now. A wonderful peaceful place, very peaceful. The atmosphere . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . live peacefully, save time, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is my mission. Mr. Malhotra: The requirement of every human being is . . . Prabhupāda: Very simple. Mr. Malhotra: Very simple. But all these, you know, these added, added, added . . . Prabhupāda: That is asuric. Yes. To increase artificially necessities of life. And become entangled. *These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life. The aim of life is to go back home, back to Godhead. That they do not know. They are trying to adjust things by material arrangement. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā . This hope will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . This material energy is the external energy of the Lord. So they are enamored by the external energy; *they have no information of the internal energy, svarūpa-śakti . Just like every one of us in the conditioned state, we are busy with this body, the external energy. And the internal energy, the soul, is there. We have no information. Although we practically daily see that as soon as the internal energy is off, it is nothing but as good as the stone. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ . They are giving importance to this external energy. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And they are being encouraged by the so-called leaders to give stress on this external energy, although they are tightly tied with the laws of nature. The laws of nature will finish this body. But still they are attached to this body. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ . I had been to that Gandhi's place. Mr. Malhotra: Gandhi's place, Wardha. Prabhupāda: Wardha. And I saw his cottage and everything. So I said this is the . . . after all, he wanted to live very simple life in a cottage. Why he declared war against the Britishers? What was the necessity? Boliye hamara question theek hai ki nahi to unko . . . me hi rehna hai. (Tell me if my question is correct or not, so they must stay in the . . .) Britishers would never tackled you or objected. The villagers were using. Why so much energy was engaged, to drive away the Britishers? Mr. Malhotra: No, he wanted the country to be free from the foreign rule. Prabhupāda: No, now what freedom we have got? (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: That is a different thing. *Prabhupāda: But that means . . . we do not get such information from Bhagavad*-gītā , that "Make your country free." Why he took Bhagavad-gītā and did this business, mislead people? He took Bhagavad-gītā and he was busy declaring war. Because politically, sometimes required. But the thing is that if your ideal is to live very simple life . . . his, I mean to say, followers, Jawaharlal Nehru, he did not take up this. Mr. Malhotra: He used to stay in bhangi colonies, Gandhi. Hmm? *Prabhupāda: So, and he was killed in the bhangi colony. No, he was killed in the Birla's place. And there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. Although he was thinking, "This is my life, Bhagavad*-gītā "—without Kṛṣṇa. What is this? *Mr. Malhotra: Bhagavad*-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? He never commented on Third Chapter. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Any chapter. The beginning is bhagavān uvāca . Now how he can describe Bhagavān? This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). *Mr. Malhotra: He used Bhagavad*-gītā for political purposes. *Prabhupāda: That is, political purpose, you may. But even politically, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7): "Fight. But always remember Me." That is politics. Kṛṣṇa never says that you forget and fight. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). This is Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa never says that, "You give up politics." Actually, the Battle of Kurukṣetra is politics. But still Kṛṣṇa is there. How you can discard Kṛṣṇa? Mr. Malhotra: Yes, Battle of Kurukṣetra was fought . . . Prabhupāda: Politics. Senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta. Senayor ubhayor madhye (BG 1.21): "Between the two soldiers, keep my chariot, my dear Acyuta." He is addressing Acyuta. Acyuta, Kṛṣṇa, agreed to become his chariot driver. Therefore he is purposefully using this word acyuta . "Because I know You are the Supreme Lord, and I am ordering You, but because You promised that You will carry my order, Acyuta, You never fail in Your work." So God's another name is Acyuta. God never falls down. This Māyāvādī theory that, "I am God, now I am fallen down," that is wrong theory. How God can fall down? If God falls down He is not God. Dog fall down, not the God. Mr. Malhotra: How can He be supreme if He can fall down? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Na māṁ karmāṇi limpanti na me karma*-phale spṛhā (BG 4.14): "I have nothing to do, and neither if anyway I act, the resultant action does not affect Me." But we are all karma-phala vatya . So how God and myself can be equal? Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa . There is daiva , there is superior arrangement. According to my karma I get a different type of body. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye (SB 3.31.1). Mr. Malhotra: But when I surrender my karmas to Almighty . . . *Prabhupāda: Then ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣ . . . (BG 18.66), then Kṛṣṇa takes care of you. Mr. Malhotra: Then those karmas don't affect . . .? *Prabhupāda: No. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (BS 5.54). Those who are bhaktas , their karmas are finished. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi . Devotee is not under karma-phala . Hmm? *Mr. Malhotra: Devotee is not under karma*-phala . Prabhupāda: He is Brahman, immediately. Liberated soul. Without being liberated, nobody can be engaged in devotional service. (break) Mr. Malhotra: Then if one understands ahaṁ brahmāsmi . . . Prabhupāda: No, simply does not understand ahaṁ brahmāsmi , but he engages himself in devotional service. That is not the end. Simply by understanding that "I am this," that is not sufficient. "I am this, and this is my duty." Mr. Malhotra: "I am this, and this is my duty." Then that is what is . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is liberation. *That is perfection of brahma*-jñāna . Mr. Malhotra: But in the final analysis, at . . . Prabhupāda: Final analysis is devotional service. Mr. Malhotra: The paraṁ pada . They even advocate, means Lord Kṛṣṇa advocates, that all icchā , every type of icchā , icchā of even mukti . . . *Prabhupāda: That is negation. Just like you become freed from fever. So the symptoms of fever finished. But your healthy life begins. And after submission of the fever, still you lie down, that is not cured. Cure will be recognized when you work in your healthy state. That is bhakti . After becoming brahma*-bhūya , the activities should be devotional service. Then it is healthy life, liberated life. Mr. Malhotra: Without any ākāṅkṣā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Ākāṅkṣā is also there. That ākāṅkṣā is different. That ākāṅkṣā , how to please Kṛṣṇa, that ākāṅkṣā . In the material stage, the ākāṅkṣā is how to please my senses. In the liberated stage, how to please Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: By pleasing Lord, one does not please one's own ego also to some extent? Prabhupāda: It is just like if you put water on the root of the tree, so all the parts of the tree may become satisfied, automatically. Or if you put food in the stomach, all the parts of your body becomes satisfied—that is automatic. You don't require to make a separate endeavor. That is not required. Mr. Malhotra: Is there any difference between the ego of a person who is collecting money, or material things, all his life, or a person who is giving all the material things for the service of the humanity at large? Is there any difference between the two? *Prabhupāda: To give your fruits of . . . result of your fruitive activities, either you give to yourself or to your brothers and sisters, it is the same thing. Expanded. Just like a child eats, but when he is little grown up, he gives to his brother also. But the principle is the same. But when you give everything to God, that is liberated stage. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat kuruṣva tad mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27). Mr. Malhotra: Meaning? Prabhupāda: Meaning, "Whatever you do, you give me Me; whatever you eat, you give to Me." Yad aśnāsi dadāsi yat : "You want to give in charity, you give to Me." (break) We have to cross this hill? Mr. Malhotra: Yes, we have to cross the hill. And then we again go on plain, then to cross another hill. But they are small, only three, four miles. We have already crossed one near Poona. That was also a small hill. This is called Khandala ghat. That was called (marathi) Kaprij. Some Kaprij Rishi, I think. Ah, there's the name, Kaprij. (break) Mr. Malhotra: Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana. And Bombay. Mr. Malhotra: Now in March it will be completed, this Kṛṣṇa center? Girirāja: It will be almost completed, but we will open. Everything will begin, our activities. Prabhupāda: Tumhen dekha gaya hai? (You have seen?) Mr. Malhotra: Ah. Prabhupāda: They say it will be a unique temple in Bombay. (break) Mr. Malhotra: The whole planning. My son is getting married on 24th of January. The younger son who went to factory this morning. He is getting married. And we are going, taking bride from here to Juhu. There is Hotel Horizon there, near Kṛṣṇa Land. So the bride will be staying there in Horizon, and then from there procession will be going to Sun and Sand, Sun and Sand, so on 24th. Whether you will be in Bombay or not, 24th January? Prabhupāda: May not be. Because Kumbha Mela is there. (break) Mr. Malhotra: . . . that auditorium. Prabhupāda: Yes, auditorium. Mr. Malhotra: This road goes to Bangalore straight, and we go to Mahabaleshwar. This is side. Prabhupāda: Bangalore how many miles? Mr. Malhotra: Total, from Poona, 520 miles. And you go from here on this road only to Goa also. Prabhupāda: Goa. Mr. Malhotra: Goa, yes. To go to Madras, you go also on this road. (break) . . . dolak. Some people will give . . . I mean sounds are different, you know, instruments are music. *Prabhupāda: This is called musical science, Jala*-taraṅga . Jala . Taraṅga means vibration, different vibration. Still there are, among the musicians, there are artists, they'll put vials and make the different tune by filling it with water: dn-dn-dn-dn , dn-dn . (break) Mr. Malhotra: This place is full of tourists from Bombay, from all of Gujarat. (break) Panchgani is one place, and twelve miles' difference, Mahabaleshwar. Also it is twin city like Secunderabad, Hyderabad. (break) In the morning when you go for walk you will find local ladies getting load of food from collected from the forests and taking. Very old, old type of life. (break) . . . this place. I visited Switzerland, and I visited almost every hill station of the country, and almost practically entire world. But I find this place of a different solace. (break) . . . and second, it is very neat and clean. Prabhupāda: Maharashtrians are very neat and clean. Upper class, they are very. (break) . . . karmī. Mr. Malhotra: Good man. Prabhupāda: Good man from worldly point of view, but from spiritual point of view, in the lowest stage. Karmī is the lowest stage. Mr. Malhotra: Lowest stage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then jñānī , then yogī , then bhakta . Mr. Malhotra: More a politician. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmī means this how to enjoy this world. Whole life they have struggled how to enjoy this: "How to enjoy myself. How to allow my men to enjoy." This is karmī platform. Everyone is doing that. Everyone is working hard for himself, for his family, and expand the family, for society, and expand the society, for the nation. Here is karmī plan. Gandhi, Birla, they are all . . . there is no question of spiritual life. Mr. Malhotra: Now this is the Kṛṣṇā River. You just see how small it is, and how big it becomes later on. In the rainy season this road is closed because this all water comes up, you know. Now it is just a small rivulet. This is Kṛṣṇā River. And it comes just opposite our place, from where it starts, from the mountain. Here is the place called Haya. This was also one of the biggest Sanskrit University in the older time, like that of Taksashila. And Sarnath, near Sarnath, what is that place? Not Sarnath—there in Bihar, that place, that was also very big university, no? Prabhupāda: Oh, Taxsila. Mr. Malhotra: No Taxsila was in Punjab, that side. In Bengal, Bihar, that . . . Prabhupāda: Darbhanga. Mr. Malhotra: I visited that. So this was the seat of very old temples, oldest temples in this place, this Haya. And they say this is one of the oldest of the oldest towns or cities of the country. Small place, Taseer with a population of about 10–15,000 people. All the temples are in the Kṛṣṇā River, in the Kṛṣṇā River. (break) Whatever I am today, that is all due to my past karmas, good or bad, I mean. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: And whatever I am doing today, that I will have to reap the harvest in the future. Prabhupāda: You are creating the next position. Mr. Malhotra: So that means that I am bound by my past karmas. My destiny, my fate, is tied with the past karmas . So I have no other goal but to have the phala of past karmas . Or can I change my fate? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are enjoying the past karmas , and you are creating new karmas . Mr. Malhotra: But can I . . . then this means a circle that I'll always be. *Prabhupāda: Karma*-cakra . *Mr. Malhotra: Karma*-cakra . So how can one be out of this cakra? Prabhupāda: That cakra , you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And put all the karmas . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, He says: "You surrender. I square up all your karma ." Mr. Malhotra: Then only square up. Otherwise, no. Otherwise continue in this vicious circle. *Prabhupāda: Dharmasyāsya parantapa mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu*-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). Karma-cakra , this mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani , one after another, one body after another, one body after another, this will continue. If you don't come to Kṛṣṇa, then nivartante , mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani , you have to return again to that karma-cakra . Mr. Malhotra: The only way out is to surrender your . . .? Prabhupāda: To accept Kṛṣṇa that, "You are my Lord. I forgot it. I surrender. Kindly accept me." Indian man: How to surrender? Prabhupāda: Surrender, there are six items. Mr. Malhotra: Six items. Prabhupāda: Yes. That, "If I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection. I am one of His servants. And whatever He does, accept that." Mr. Malhotra: Good or bad. Prabhupāda: There is no bad. Everything is good. And first accept what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa, to reject what is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: And what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa? How one knows? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says. Do that. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Always think of Kṛṣṇa, become His devotee, offer obeisances. It doesn't require any extra endeavor, these things. Whatever you have got, you can do it. You can think of Kṛṣṇa without any impediment. Who can check it if you think of Kṛṣṇa? This is favorable. And what is unfavorable, that should be rejected. What is favorable, that should be accepted. And to believe firmly that "Now I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." (break) But dog has got a quality that he surrenders to his master. The master is a Vaiṣṇava, then dog gets the benefit. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya, mat para, mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mat para, mat para (BG 9.32). When the process is there, everyone can surrender, that "I shall act only what is favorable to get Kṛṣṇa's mercy." Yes. "And I shall not act any way which is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa." These first two determinations. And then, "Because I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." You believe in it. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). Believe in it. "Now I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. My all resultant actions of sinful life is finished. I will not come again." In this way. Indian man: If one surrenders, how to know that Kṛṣṇa has accepted? Prabhupāda: That you will understand. Just like if you eat, you will understand that you are eating. Nobody has to convince you. You will be convinced. Mr. Malhotra: The test of the pudding is by eating. Not by simply telling. Prabhupāda: When you eat, you haven't got to ask somebody else, "Do you think I am happy?" You'll feel yourself. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). If you are actually devotee, then you will be detestful to all material things. (break) . . . mouse of the mountain. (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: Yes, he was declared mouse of the mountain. (break) Prabhupāda: Yes. If you want material power, you must be worshiper of Durgā. Mr. Malhotra: And if you want spiritual . . .? Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. This Bālajī is Viṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: How then Viṣṇu, the incarnations, Kṛṣṇa, then Viṣṇu's incarnation . . . Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu is everything. If you want material power, you can get it from Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: Material power from Viṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Yes, Viṣṇu can give everything. Paramaṁ puruṣa is Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: Viṣṇu can give the power of bhakti also. Prabhupāda: Everything. Yes. Bhakti is . . . generally He gives bhakti . If you want something other than bhakti , you can get it. Mr. Malhotra: This is the center of M.R.A., Moral Rearmament. I phoned them for yesterday, so that Rajmohan Gandhi is away, not here. But the other people are here. We will visit this some time during the day. These days one conference is going on. There are 130 countries. Some conference. Devotee: There? Indian man: What is the subject? Mr. Malhotra: I don't know, remember. Prabhupāda: Oh, you may not know it, and this will do never any benefit. Mr. Malhotra: Now this is Panchgani, starts from here. Prabhupāda: Ah. Mr. Malhotra: . . . starts from here. (end) Conversation -- December 25, 1976, Bombay (Conversation with Mr. Tombe M.L.A.) Mr. Tombe: After all, even if it is thrown out . . . *Prabhupāda: That is also answered in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam by very strong word. Bhāgavata says, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśu ḥ ( SB 2.3.19). If the public is like dogs, camel, hogs and asses, so what is the value of their election? He'll elect another big dog or camel. So there is chaos. Mr. Tombe: Then how to throw out good leadership? Prabhupāda: Yes. Good leadership means you must learn how to lead people. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). If the śreṣṭha , the leader, is ideal, then others will follow. But if the leader is not ideal, if he is not in the awareness of things, then people will be misguided. Mr. Tombe: So how can we chalk out a program of, say, training of leaders from villages . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to take lessons from the biggest leader, Kṛṣṇa. Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). He's the leader of the demigods also. We have to take lesson from. That lesson is there, Bhagavad*-gītā . But we do not take it. We manufacture our leadership. That is the defect. What Kṛṣṇa says . . . everyone is proud of reading Bhagavad-gītā , but the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā is how to kill Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That is their . . . all these. What can I say? These misleaders, they are doing that. Leadership is already there—Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is learning from Kṛṣṇa. So if you learn from Kṛṣṇa you become perfect leader. But we do not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. We manufacture our own ideas. That is failure. Otherwise in our country so many learned sages, especially Kṛṣṇa is there, and their books are there, their instructions are there. We do not take them. Still we become leader. So what kind of leading? He's imperfect, so he cannot lead. Then there will be some mistake and chaos. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said . . . He said, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). You understand little Bengali? So Indians, they can make their life perfect by following this Vedic literature, and they can lead the whole world. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. First of all you become perfect by taking lessons from the Vedic literature. And then you do good to others. But without making yourself perfect, if you try to do good to others, that is chaos. Then again comes, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Some blind men following another blind man, what will be the result? The present Indians, we have lost our own culture. We have rejected our own culture. Still we are leading people. There is chaotic condition. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to correct this mistake. So leaders like you should cooperate. Mr. Tombe: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Then things will be perfect. India . . . if the whole world can be saved from this chaotic position, India can do. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. But that India leaders first of all make his life perfect. Then it will be all right. Just like our . . . of course, I'm not proud, but I am alone. I started this movement alone, without any help. But because I am giving them the perfect information, whole world is taking it. Otherwise, from practical point of view, one man without any help, within ten years he cannot do like this. That's a fact. But I have no difficulty because I am following the supreme leader, Kṛṣṇa. People may say that I've done wonderful, but there is nothing magic. Because I am following Kṛṣṇa, the supreme leader, so far it has become successful. So everyone can do that. Where is the difficulty? Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam (BG 4.2). If we follow the paramparā system it is not difficult. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These all are Prabhupāda's books. Eighty books. *Prabhupāda: Eighty*-four books we have . . . I have written within ten years. And our publication house, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the first in the world for publishing religious and philosophical books. We are selling not less than six lakhs worth books daily. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, publishing division. (indistinct comments to another devotee) Mr. Tombe: I have got only a few of them now. I would like to pick up . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here, these are . . . we only have sample copies in India. So I'll tell Girirāja to bring you some. These are only sample copies for Prabhupāda's display. (end) Conversation A -- December 26, 1976, Bombay Devotee (1): I have just come from America, and at the universities, lots of times there are many questions concerning evolution, and I was curious about what our position is in terms of artifacts—bones like dinosaur bones and things like that that the scientists say they found. Prabhupāda: Scientists are rascals, those who are following Darwin. What is their theory? *Devotee (1): They maintain that from the oceans came one*-celled animals. Then from these one-celled animals, they developed into fish and then reptiles. And then these reptiles became very big dinosaurs. And they have put together many big museums. For instance, in Washington the Smithsonian Museum has many, many big bones put together, and they date these millions of years ago. *Prabhupāda: So we have got also the same theory. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāna). (break) . . . within water. So where is the difference? We also admit the forms of life begins from the ocean. Then plants. As soon as the water is dried, there are plants, trees. Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati . Sthāvara means the life which cannot move. So the trees, plants, grass, they cannot move. Then insects, then reptiles, then birds, then beast, then human being. In this way the living entity is changing body. So what is the difficulty? Devotee (1): But they say that the human body developed right from these other bodies. In other words . . . Prabhupāda: Evolution, from beast human body has come. Where is the difference? Even there is difference, what is the idea? Devotee (1): Well, they maintain that therefore man was not created by God, but simply by chemicals. Prabhupāda: Rascals! Wherefrom the life came first? Wherefrom the life came from? When you find life in the water, wherefrom this life came? Devotee (1): They say originally it came from chemicals that came together. Prabhupāda: Rascal! Create from chemicals. Otherwise, beat them with shoes in their mouth. "Why you talk nonsense? Create from chemicals, life." (break) What do they say? Devotee (1): They say they're working on it. Prabhupāda: Then be beaten with shoes. When you're successful, then say. Otherwise, I shall beat you with shoes. That's all. That is your punishment. You have not come to the experimental stage, and you are talking, "This is science." Science is experiment and observation. Unless the experiment is practical, practical science . . . it will be accepted as science when the experiment is successful. Not before that. That is scientific method. First of all, observe: "It may be happening like this." But that "maybe" should be confirmed by experiment. Then it is science. Even in colleges there is practical examination. Theoretical and practical. So unless . . . "We are trying." Everyone will say: "I am trying." "I am trying to become millionaire." When you become millionaire, then say that you are millionaire. You are trying for becoming millionaire, and you say, "I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? Huh? Devotee (1): Yes. No one has ever observed the life coming from matter. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just prove that life comes from chemicals. How is that? "I am trying to be millionaire, therefore I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? You are trying to create from chemicals, therefore you are scientist. What's this kind of scientist? Beat them with shoes, that's all. *Guest (1) (Indian man): I have a researcher in our family, and he thinks the theory of evolution is the daśa*-avatāra . Prabhupāda: You can think like that. Your thinking has no value. Guest (1): No, not my thinking. Prabhupāda: Then don't say: "I am thinking." Guest (1): No, I said I have a researcher in our family; he thinks. Prabhupāda: What research? He's a rascal also! *Guest (1): No, but he thinks the daśa*-avatāra . . . Prabhupāda: "He thinks," means he's a rascal. Nothing to be think. It must be from the śāstra . Guest (1): Is there any evidence in śāstra that I could look? Prabhupāda: What is that? *Guest (1): The daśa*-avatāras , that the first was Matsya and then Kūrma and Varāha, and finally . . . Prabhupāda: That is God's pastime. He becomes like this, like that. It is not evolution. Guest (1): Not evolution. Guru dāsa: God is not so morphic. He's not an animal. Just like we're in this room but we don't become part of the room. (break) Śrutaśravā: . . . so clear, but they refuse to accept it 'cause if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śrutaśravā: You make all these things so crystal clear, but they refuse to accept, because if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense. Prabhupāda: Refusal . . . let them refuse, and who cares for them? Guru dāsa: Actually, if they were successful in any experiment they would be out of a job. So they actually want material life, scientists. Prabhupāda: And now what is their science? This is science, that "We are trying"? What is this nonsense science? Do you think this is science? "We are trying." Everyone can say: "I'm trying." Is that science? Then? Any rascal can say that, "I am trying." Is that science? *Amogha*-līlā: I heard that you had quoted a saying that anyone who goes to Laṅkā becomes a Rāvaṇa, and that similarly, when the devotees come to India, they become Rāvaṇa. I wonder if you would explain that or elaborate or explain how we can avoid this sort of thing happening. (break) I'm sorry? Prabhupāda: Ask the leaders. I was talking that in all our other branches, our men manage the cooking and kitchen, and as soon as they come here, they become . . . bara lath saheb (. . . big minister.) That is Rāvaṇa. Why do they not do here? We have to keep some cook who is neither initiated, nor very clean, a smoker, and we have to keep them. (break) In all other branches, the boys and girls, they manage everything. (break) *Amogha*-līlā: . . . follow the regulations more strictly? Prabhupāda: That I have to say again? That means Rāvaṇa. He's asking. I am repeatedly saying that follow, and he's asking. That means he's Rāvaṇa. Why you are inquiring like that? If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? That means Rāvaṇa. If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? (break) Śrutaśravā: . . . one week ago, and in just four days' time the devotees there have distributed over one lakh of Back to Godhead magazines in just four days. Prabhupāda: But you do not do here. Huh? That means Rāvaṇa. (laughter) (break) . . . to become less intelligent, less active, and therefore I say, yāya sei laṅkā sei haya rāvaṇa , "Anyone who comes to Laṅkā, he becomes Rāvaṇa." Guest (1): Their promotion in local language would be very helpful. Prabhupāda: No, in India will purchase English magazine, he knows English. Guest (1): Yes, he knows, but the popularity will be much more in the Hindi and Gujarati and Marathi speaking people, Bengali speaking. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is for you, Indians. But you have no time. You are busy with your daughter's marriage, and you simply advise. Guest (1): I am busy? Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. Every Indian is busy with his own affair. He'll come and advise, that's all. Advise gratis. But he will not do himself. Guest (1): No, but . . . Prabhupāda: No, this is going . . . I have got full experience that Indians, they will come and give some advice, and go away for daughter's marriage. That's all. Guest (1): Well there are various types of Indians, you know. *Prabhupāda: That type of, ninety*-nine percent. *Guru dāsa: Just like ninety*-nine percent of us become lazy when we come to India. Prabhupāda: You'll advise, but you'll never do it. That is going on. *(break) . . . elephants dance, and we see. This is Indian policy. These white elephants, they'll come and dance, and you'll see. And you are busy with your daughter's marriage. That's all. (break) . . . means vairāgya*-vidyā. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga ( CC Madhya 6.254). Nobody can become a bhakta unless he has disgusted with material life. "I shall do this, I shall do that." And he'll never do bhakti-yoga . That's all. This is not possible. (break) Before leaving my family life I wanted to get my all sons and daughters married, but some of them disagreed, some of them . . . my wife disagreed. "Let them go to hell, I don't care. Time is up. Never mind you are married or not married. Then see your own business." (break) . . . I or you, then who will take care of the marriage of your daughter? Suppose you die immediately? Then who will take care? Guest (1): God will give them . . . *Prabhupāda: Then why don't you do that now? God will take care. It is called, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, civil suicide. Civil suicide. Just like if you commit suicide, that is criminal. But this is voluntarily committing suicide: "Now I am dead. Whatever you like, you do." So we have to commit civil suicide if we are actually attached to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya . . . (BG 18.66). That is gṛha-dharma . But Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up that." But that attachment is there. I do not think . . . suppose I die immediately. Who will take care of my daughter? At that time we say: "God." And why not now? Guest (1): That feeling of attachment one has to give up gradually. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we cannot do because the attachment is there. That is the symptom. Guest (1): Saṅkīrtana will help give up the attachment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore wherever you stay, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will help. Thākā ekhana pāiyā . Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, try for the daughter's marriage. That will help. (break) . . . kabhi mithta nahi. (. . . never gets finished.) Guest (1): Civil suicide is a good thought. Prabhupāda: That is the thought only. Oh, Doctor saheb. Dr. Patel: I asked him where you were, and he said that you are on the roof. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Wo kabh mithta nahi. Samundar jo hai na, uska tufan chalega. Koi sochta hai tufan band ho jaye, tab hum nav chalayenge. Wo sambhav hai nahi. (It never gets over. The waves in the sea will keep on coming. If somebody thinks that he will take out his boat only after the waves subside completely then that's not possible.) Guest (1): Prakriti hai, wo to chalega. (That is part of nature, it will go on.) (break) Hmm? I do not know. (break) Dr. Patel: You agreed, huh? . . . (indistinct) . . . is coming. Prabhupāda: I am going within four days. Dr. Patel: You go, find out what you . . . and then communicate with you. Huh? Prabhupāda: No, you asked me to stay at least a few days. Dr. Patel: But you must stay. If you don't stay, you can't stay, I have got no power to keep you tied here. If you will stay, well and good. If you can't even, well, I will try our best to inform you what should be done in four days. Hmm? Prabhupāda: Let God do whatever He likes. Dr. Patel: God will be doing through us. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . sir bhi dukhta hai . . . (indistinct) (. . . I get a headache . . . (indistinct) . . .) . . . blood pressure. Dr. Patel: But whatever you do . . . (laughs) You do not know . . . Prabhupāda: No, whatever is there is there. Let it remain. They also require some shelter. Dr. Patel: We want to find out . . . (indistinct) . . . why you are getting swelling or whether weakness of the heart. There are various reasons why did you get the swelling of the leg, you know. We must find out by biochemical examination of the internal fluids, such as the blood, urine and stool, and put you on the right information. Now if you follow or not is your own sweet will, sir. *Prabhupāda: Nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ , bālasya neha pitarau śaraṇaṁ nṛsiṁha. Na ārtasya ca agadam. Tāvad vibho tanu*-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām (SB 7.9.19). If Kṛṣṇa neglects somebody, then these things will not help. Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa never neglects anybody. You have told once so. It is we, our own actions which we, I mean, forget. We get. If you walk too much then you get tired. If you sit down you do not. If you walk, then there is swelling of the leg, sir. Eh? So it is not Kṛṣṇa. I mean, this is your own saying, eh? I am not manufacturing my own arguments. Prabhupāda: No, the śāstra says, nārtasya cāga . . . there is no guarantee. But we may try, but there is no guarantee. Dr. Patel: This is the play of māyā , that we all know. But so long as we are in māyā we have to play our part, haven't we? Prabhupāda: But it is supposition, the pathologist. Dr. Patel: No, I am going to bring. That was myself. Prabhupāda: He'll take blood, he'll take this, he'll take that. So that is another trouble. (chuckles) Dr. Patel: No, no, but why should you have a minus on blood? Why should you have minus, and whose blood is it? This is your own argument, sir, I am very sorry. Prabhupāda: No, no . . . Dr. Patel: Nothing is ours. The body is not ours. Prabhupāda: When you take blood, there is . . . Dr. Patel: Not of that . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, not that, but I feel . . . Dr. Patel: How you feel? You are a soul! The body feels; you do not feel. Now we are talking about the philosophy. Prabhupāda: I am not a liberated person. Dr. Patel: No, but . . . you are liberated soul, we are following you. There are many others, sir, otherwise we would not have come behind you. So, sir, that is not right. And I think I have got a right to prevail upon you. Have I or have I not? Tell me that, or I'll run away back again. (break) . . . it's not full. Who knows? We may be liberated in past birth. That is how I come. Prabhupāda: That's fine. That's your process. You are trying to do something for the disease. Dr. Patel: You see, we must know exactly what is happening. After all, science is the same with the Āyurvedic or allopathic or any. Science is, I mean, advancement of man's evolution of the man's understanding about things. Prabhupāda: I say, but somebody says that . . . what is the medicine? I take some Āyurvedic medicine. Dr. Patel: No, you do take. We don't say no. You don't take any medicine, we know exactly where you stand, as the modern science explains us. (break) Well, he may not tell us truth immediately, but that is his aim. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Now I am feeling some dizziness. Dr. Patel: Sit down. You sit down. Prabhupāda: Where is that sitting place? Dr. Patel: Niche jayenge ab hum. (We will go downstairs now.) Go down. (break) Prabhupāda: Harer nāma eva kevalam , kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21). (break) . . . is a big tank of Calcutta Gas Company. That looks like this. Dr. Patel: We have got also tank like this in Bombay. We have also gas company tanks. It's in . . . (indistinct) . . . we have bigger tanks here of the petroleum companies. Huge tanks, petroleum tanks. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: When I was in Northern Ireland preaching, they blew it up, the gas tank, by bombs. They blew the whole gas tank up. Prabhupāda: Where? Guru dāsa: In Northern Ireland, Belfast. Dr. Patel: Those terrorists. Prabhupāda: (referring to seat) It was here. Who has taken? Guru dāsa: It is coming now. Āsana , āsana . (break) Prabhupāda: The others, others is not. Devotee (2): The other seat got taken away, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for cleaning. For making it cleaner. Devotee (1): We can get mattresses from your room and a pillow if you'd like to sit down. Prabhupāda: No, no, this is all right. (break) Dr. Patel: Only tired feel? (break) . . . or may be due to poverty of heart action, or it may be due to some inaction on the part of the kidney or some collection of some obnoxious substances in the blood. That is why we must have an analysis done, so for a right understanding, we can advise you what to do. Anyone can write analysis, acidity and . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Now, everything is less. Dr. Patel: Then you stay here. And you're completely home, without anything. You are not prepared to . . . this is . . . Prabhupāda: As soon as this building is, I will take. Dr. Patel: We listen to you, but you don't listen. That is the misfortune of ours. Huh? Prabhupāda: Actually, I have got so many engagements. Actually, I have got engagement in Bhubaneswar . . . Dr. Patel: And you are going to Bhubaneswar after fifteen days, no? Prabhupāda: . . . Calcutta, in Allahabad, then Māyāpur, then Vṛndāvana, then Bombay. Dr. Patel: So to make you fit to go round, you must do something. It's very logical. Guru dāsa: "Penny wise, pound foolish." Dr. Patel: So let pound be wise for the penny foolish. If you do in right path then you may not break down like . . . (indistinct) . . . getting all this trouble. (break) . . . at least for four, five days. We don't want any more. In one days we will find out what to . . . how to . . . this will be cured. I don't mean medicine, but even advice, food, this, that, other things. If you get rid of the medicine, well, all medicines are, I mean, synthetics. They are not produced from animals. Many of them. (break) Prabhupāda: Harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). (break) . . . that sound all the time. (sounds of birds) Girirāja: Do they have many birds in Bhubaneswar? Are there many birds in Bhubaneswar? Prabhupāda: Wherever there are nice trees, there will be birds. Guru dāsa: Girirāja is asking, he thinks there's more birds in Bombay than in Bhubaneswar. Girirāja Prabhu is stating there is more birds in Bombay. Dr. Patel: There are more crows in Bombay than any other place. (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, no. They are also birds. Dr. Patel: There are very more filthier, for the crows, to clean. Guru dāsa: So Prabhupāda should go, then. Dr. Patel: No, you see, if the good people is there, up there, you know the filth disappears. Guru dāsa: That's what the śāstra says. The sun dries up urine in a filthy place. Dr. Patel: So he must be here. Another argument, and he will answer. Guru dāsa: Yes, but there is also urine in Bhubaneswar. Dr. Patel: In Bhubaneswar you are going to have any plan for making a temple? Prabhupāda: What is my plan, that is always there, that is to print books and construct temples. Throughout the whole world this plan is going on: fifty percent construction, fifty percent printing books. Whatever I get money, I give him. That's all. I am the same beggar, either it comes ten lakhs or fifty lakhs , ten crores . Dr. Patel: You are exhibiting this body to be "I". Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam akledyo 'śoṣya eva ca (BG 2.24). Prabhupāda: No, no, that is different. Dr. Patel: You come down to body consciousness and talk to us. We want you to talk from higher consciousness. Prabhupāda: I have no higher consciousness. Dr. Patel: Then talk from the lower consciousness, still lower. Prabhupāda: Why should I? Dr. Patel: Let us go out and make a business in the stock market. Prabhupāda: I am doing business. I am selling books. (laughter) Dr. Patel: Stock exchange. Why not? It is very easy. Prabhupāda: I am selling books. Dr. Patel: Why not a Wall Street operation? It is very easy. Prabhupāda: They are all engaged in doing business. Dr. Patel: Have you wanted a businessman to come? Prabhupāda: I am doing business. Guest (3): Prabhupada ke mafik duniya me koi businessman hai? (Is there any businessman like Prabhupāda in the world?) *Dr. Patel: Ye to baniya hai. Baniya . . . (He is a businessman. A businessman) is a sweet*-oil tongued fellow. Guest(3): Prabhupāda itna bada businessman hai. World ka sab businessman fail ho gaya. (Prabhupāda is such a big businessman that all businessmen of the world have failed before him.) Dr. Patel: We can still make a bigger business in Wall Street. Have a Wall Street here in Bombay and . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: You are criticizing the bāniyās . The bāniyās criticize the doctor. (laughter) Dr. Patel: And doctor criticizes you. Prabhupāda: Bāniyās say, they say, nal jal jocchuri teen niye daktari, (one tap, a little water and cheating, make up a quack doctor.) Dr. Patel: Nal jal . . .? Prabhupāda: Jocchuri . Dr. Patel: Jocchuri means? *Prabhupāda: Cheating. Suniye na. Teen chiz chahiye unko. Ek nal chahiye aur pani, lal*-nil pani . . . (Just listen. Three things are needed. One tap, red or blue coloured water . . .) Or all cheating words. Dr. Patel: But according to our śāstra , it is so. Prabhupāda: No, no, this is according to bāniyā , the doctor is calculated . . . Dr. Patel: Bāniyā is right in that way. Bāniyā is right. Prabhupāda: Humara Bangla desh me bolta hai je nal jal jocchuri, teen niye daktari. (In Bengal, they say that three things are needed to become a quack doctor, one tap, little water and cheating words.) Dr. Patel: In Bengali. Prabhupāda: In Bengali village there are many quacks. You know that. Everywhere. (laughter) So what their business? Nal jal jocchuri teen niye daktari. (One tap, a little water and cheating make up a quack doctor.) *Dr. Patel: In Mahābhārata , in Vidura*-nīti , Vidura has mentioned that a doctor should not be trusted and should not be allowed to come in the house. I am reading presently that part of Mahābhārata . Why? Because they must be right from the beginning, in olden times also they must be of the same type. Prabhupāda: Another place, Vaiṣṇava says, either he is businessman or doctor, anyone, they are all madmen. *Jaise koi admi ko bhoot pakad leta hai. (Just like a person who is haunted by a ghost.) Ghostly*-haunted. And he talks all nonsense. Similarly, anyone who is in the material condition, he is a ghostly haunted man. So he can talk anything, all nonsense. Piśācī pāile yena . . . this is applicable to everyone. Anyone who has got this material body, he's ghostly-haunted. Therefore we are explaining that verse, that first treatment is how to get out of the clutches of this ghost which has attacked everyone. So ghostly haunted man, he's himself a victim of the ghost. How he can treat other men? He's also haunted by the ghost. This is the position. Even one may say: "I am haunted by a better ghost." That may be, but every one of us ghostly haunted. And śāstra says this is treatment: tapasya . Tapo divyaṁ putrakā , yasmād sattvaṁ śuddhyed (SB 5.5.1). Sattva. Sattva, our existence, is polluted. The first business . . . (break) . . . the skin and bone. The skin and bone will continue so long I am in the material condition of life, either bird's skin . . . just like who was talking of evolution? Who was? (indistinct answer by devotees) Yes. This disease of skin and bone will continue. Because the spirit soul is not the bone and skin. The Darwin's theory, he is putting that the bone is changing. The bone is not changing. You get different bones in different life. I am changing my position. I am going from one apartment to another apartment. The apartment not changing; I am changing apartment. That is the difference between Darwin's theory and our theory. They are thinking the apartment is becoming another apartment. No. The apartments are already there. I am entering different apartments as I can pay for it. That is karma . According to my karma , I am sometimes residing in one apartment, in another apartment. This is going on. The Darwin's theory, the apartment is changing. That's not the fact. Fact is I am living entity. Tathā dehān . . . Kṛṣṇa also says, tathā dehāntara . Apartment antara . The spirit soul is the same. There is no change. That is spirit always, but according to his karma , he is going from this apartment, or this body, tathā dehān . . . that is the main point with the modern science and our Vedic knowledge. That is the main difference. They have no idea of the existence of the soul, and therefore say: "We are trying to make. We are trying to make." This rascaldom is going on. You cannot make soul. That is not possible. You cannot do anything. You cannot make even the body, what to speak of the soul. This is . . . Dr. Patel: Modern scientists don't say that we can make the soul. Soul is permanent in every man. Prabhupāda: No, the rascals say: "We can create." So that rascal, number of that rascal is more. They are saying, bluffing that, "Now we shall create chemicals. We are trying." This is going on. Just this morning he was saying. Dr. Patel: It is the theory of these people, I think, that . . . Guest (4): Communists. Dr. Patel: Communists. Prabhupāda: That means rascalism. Not a single soul has been created till now and these rascals are claiming that they are going . . . and they are scientists. We have to accept them as scientists. Just see. This is . . . not only now. One gentleman, one big doctor, chemist, he has got Nobel Prize, he came to California, and our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, he was in the also in the university, he's also doctor and chemist. So he was speaking on the chemical evolution. So he's my student, he challenged him that, "If I give you chemicals, can you prepare life?" "That I cannot say." Dr. Patel: Even a living cell of life . . . Prabhupāda: No, it was meeting. When Svarūpa Dāmodara challenged him that, "Suppose I give you the chemicals, right chemicals. Can you prepare a life?" Then he said: "That I cannot say." Why? Why do you say nonsense? Dr. Patel: Because their definition of life is very meager. They say that life is a chemical imbalance, a state of chemical imbalance. That is wrong. Life is something higher than . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore these chemists—they are predominating—so how it is possible to take their version? (greets someone) Aiye. Baithiye. (Please come. Take your seat.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (break) . . . a simple version of Vaiṣṇava: Jaya . Wherefrom you are coming? Devotee (2): From London. Prabhupāda: Oh. You are Englishman? Devotee (2): Yes. English. Prabhupāda: Stay here. We want some Englishmen. (laughter) No. We want Englishmen, Australian, Canadian, because they have no visa problem. Dr. Patel: American will have no visa problem very soon. Guru dāsa: Why? Dr. Patel: There is no question why. We'll understand it. Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. So the visa problem is a great problem for us, because in India for conducting our movement, we have to import the white men. Our Indians, they are not joining. So that is a great problem for me. They have to come, and they have to go again. And each time coming and going, ten thousand rupees. And that is happening at least one hundred cases every year. Ten thousand, hundred times, just imagine. This is my economic problem. Therefore I'm asking, "If you are Englishman, please stay." Because here, in India, they will see that, "The white man dancing, let us see." They will never join. They are busy with their own affairs. They will advise, "Do this, do that," but they will never come. This is my position. Practical. Therefore I'm begging the Englishmen, the Canadians, the Australians, "Please come and stay." Because huge establishment, who will manage? I am managing with them, but there is economic question. For each person I have to spend ten thousand rupees at least, and such hundred case . . . Devotee: One million. Prabhupāda: This is the position. The Indians are not interested. They are not interested. Dr. Patel: You are firing everyone, so they run away. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What can be done? This is real position. Dr. Patel: Only I am a fool, not running away. (laughter) He says, Prabhupāda, "You rascals . . ." Prabhupāda: Everyone may be a fool, but if he continues to remain a fool, that is very bad. (laughter) Dr. Patel: A fool is a fool always. He cannot change his habits . . . *Prabhupāda: More or less every one of us, we are fool, mūḍha . Kṛṣṇa has stated mūḍha , mūḍha . Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). He has chastised like anything. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān (BG 16.19). So anyone who's not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is within these categories: duṣkṛtina , narādhama , mūḍha, māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna , āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ . This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is Indian movement, but na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ . They are not taking seriously. That is the position. It is our movement. Kṛṣṇa came in India, and because India is so glorified place, puṇya-bhūmi, even the demigods, they desire. Not India; *this planet, Bhārata*-varṣa. Formerly, the whole Bhārata-varṣa means whole planet. Anyway, for the time it is now minimized. So it is not ordinary land. So our men, they are not interested in such great movement. How much regrettable it is. And who are they? Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). If you speak the truth, then you take the quotation of Kṛṣṇa. Now every Indian should take part in this great movement. Every Indian. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. *It is para*-upakāra . India's business is para-upakāra . India's business is not exploitation. That is Indian. And para-upakāra means not that daridra-nārāyaṇa bhojana . No. Para-upakāra means to give him knowledge, for want of which he is suffering. That is real . . . *This is his real suffering. He's part and parcel of God. Qualitatively, he's as good as God, but he's suffering. Why he's suffering? Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). He has come to this material world, prakṛti , and . . . or mental concoction, he's creating his plan and struggling for existence. This is real suffering. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save him from real suffering. That Indians should take very seriously and join this movement. And para-upakāra , people need it all over the world. Otherwise, why these young boys, they have joined me? They are finding something relief by this movement. Otherwise, what business he has got to join with an Indian, poor Indian? I went to their country with forty rupees, that's all. So they are finding something relief. And actually it is relief. So our Indians are not interested. India is supposed to be the . . . what is called? Benefactor, or . . .? *Dr. Patel: Deva*-bhūmi , deva-bhūmi . Prabhupāda: Yes. But this knowledge is here. Huh? Dr. Patel: So they came, and we are there in the knowledge already. Apan mandir me jayenge? (Are we going to the temple?) Prabhupāda: Time ho gaya kya? (Is it time to go?) You can sit down here? No? Girirāja: I feel this is important. *Prabhupāda: All right. So, sab bharata*-varshi, young men, jitne hai, sabhi movement ko lijiye seriously. (So all young Indians should take this movement seriously.) It is not ordinary movement. Ye cheating movement nahi hai. (This is not a cheating movement.) This is real movement. Kṛṣṇa, what Kṛṣṇa is speaking, what Caitanya Mahāprabhu is speaking, that is not cheating. That is real solution of the problem. So we have taken the business of Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So every intelligent person, intelligent young man . . . now we have got . . . we have got everywhere, but especially now in Bombay—it is important city—we have constructed this. We can keep at least five hundred, six hundred men in these buildings. But who is coming? Nobody's coming. Dr. Patel: If they all come, then it will be difficult for you. *Prabhupāda: Then let them come first of all. (laughter) There is no "if." There is sufficient place. Come. But nobody's coming. They want to see, "Let these white men come and we see." That's all. "We see the fun." This is going on. They are coming. They are disgusted, but we are not disgusted. That is the difficulty. Therefore I was speaking to this boy, "You are Englishman. You have come." It's a problem now in Māyāpur, here. And the government is after them as soon as three months pass, "Get out, get out, get out, get out." Then how shall I conduct my business, a big, big establishment? This is another problem. But Kṛṣṇa is doing His own business. But practically seeing. This is India's business. Bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). Manuṣya-janma , not the cats and dogs, but those who have taken the human form. It is their business. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra , janma sārthaka . . . first of all, make your life successful by understanding the philosophy. Then, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra , preach this philosophy all over the world. That is para-upakāra . So actually that is being done. They understand; they are understanding this philosophy. There is struggle now in foreign countries. There is opposition now. Hmm? Who will explain what is the opposition? Girirāja: Today we just got a new package from New York from this boy. And some of the parents were charging that we were kidnapping and mentally imprisoning their children by making them devotees. Because from their point of view their children were lost to our movement. So . . . Prabhupāda: He's a lost child. His father and mother came to me, and mother was crying. I said: "So take your son." And the son will not go. (laughter) Dr. Patel: You are washing away their brains. Prabhupāda: (laughing) So they are charging like that. What is the new charge? Huh? Śrutaśravā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are saying "mind control." Prabhupāda: (laughing) "Mind control." Yes. *Śrutaśravā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, so many . . . all the big scholars in America, all the big famous scholars, they have put together one petition saying how authorized our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement are. And they are willing to come forward now. If any time they want some papers in the courtroom to show how bona fide our movement is, how we are actually not brainwashers and mind*-controlled, there are these scholars in America, they have pledged their support. Girirāja: There was a meeting of four big scholars at Harvard University—it's like the Oxford of America. And one famous theologian named Cox . . . Prabhupāda: Harvey Cox? Girirāja: Yes, and Kīrtanānanda Swami. His books are very famous. And they have brought up this issue of freedom of religion, that this is a bona fide religious movement and we should have freedom to worship. Then there's also a letter from a member of the World Fellowship of Religion, and he is also saying that he takes this very seriously and very grave, that such a bona fide movement is not being allowed to practice their religion freely. And then there's one, I think, Professor Sharma at one American University, and he is . . . Prabhupāda: Sharma or Sukla? *Girirāja: No, another one. Not Sukla. And this Sharma is saying that he has personal experience that this is a bona fide movement, and that the American public in general may not know, but A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is one of the renowned writers of translations of Vedic translations and commentaries of Vedic literature. (break) And then Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja is going with . . . a Swami? Chandra Swami, some Indian svāmī in America. But he's going with Ādi-keśava Mahārāja to meet the new President of the United States on January 27th. Prabhupāda: He's going to see? *Girirāja: Yes, Jimmy Carter. On January 20th he will become the next President. So Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja and this one Indian sannyāsī , they are going to make a representation to the new President. Prabhupāda: Who is that Indian svāmī ? Śrutaśravā: His name is Chandra Swami. Prabhupāda: Chandra Swami? So why . . .? Guest (4): He's a young man. Prabhupāda: He must be Māyāvādī. Girirāja: I'm sure he is. Prabhupāda: He's taking advantage of this. He's a Māyāvādī. Guest (4): He's a man who is following tantric . Prabhupāda: So what is this nonsense? This should not be . . . he should not accompany. He's taking advantage of it. Guest (4): He's also directly associated with the Prime Minister, this young man, Chandra Swami. Dr. Patel: The Prime Minister is the greatest Māyāvādī. *Prabhupāda: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna (BG 7.15). Māyāvādī means māyā has taken his knowledge. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna . Ninety-nine percent they are Māyāvādīs. Guest (4): Swāmījī, what about those missionaries who are working in India who are coming from abroad, and they are actually exploiting? If they put a charge against our institution, well, we can definitely say that we are motivating the intellect to take into the higher stage of life. Here the missionaries who come, they go in the backward areas, and those who are not learned, those who are practically uneducated . . . I mean, their mission is to convert them in Christianity. You see, that charge is rather more grave than the particular one which they have leveled against us. You see, we can put that argument, isn't it? How many Hindus are converted into Christianity? We are not converting them, we are just . . . *Prabhupāda: Our case is not that we are going to convert one Hindu to Christian, or Christian to Hindu. There is no meaning. Our is, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Even if you are Hindu, even you are Muslim, you are Christian, kick it out. That is our movement. We do not advocate that "You are Christian; you become Hindu." Or "You are Hindu; you become . . ." They are taking like that. But our movement is not that. Guest (4): That's what I say. *Prabhupāda: Our movement is, either you are Hindu, either you are Muslim, either you are Christian, you kick out all this. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya . Simply you become surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, or God. This is our . . . and anyone who can do that, he is first-class religious. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Adhokṣaja. God's name is Adhokṣaja. You cannot see Him beyond your material perception. So if you are trained up to surrender to God, then you are religious. We do not say that you become Hindu or Muslim or Christian or this or that. We do not say so. Dr. Patel: But all Christians, if they truly are . . . I mean Hindus, that Christ . . . Prabhupāda: No, either he become Hindus, that does not mean the Hindus are perfect. We do not mean that. Even if he becomes Hindu, what is the benefit? No benefit. Dr. Patel: No. Even he becomes a Christian, there is no benefit. *Prabhupāda: I say any religious stamp, material, there is no benefit. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). You have to give up all these designations. And bhakti , love of Godhead, or service to God, begins when you are relieved from these designations. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When becoming God conscious you become completely purified, then your devotional life begins. And so long you are entangled with this designation, there is no question of devotional service. Either you Hindu or Muslim or Christian, it doesn't matter. So our business is not that, that we convert a Hindu to a Christian or a Christian to a Hindu. That is not our business. They are thinking, because we dress like that, with tilaka , with māla , they think "Hindu." But it's not our business to convert the Christians to become Hindus, as all other missionaries, they are doing. They are trying to increasing the number of Christian or Hindus. So our . . . there is no question of increasing. It is very difficult to accept. *Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy. Out of millions and millions of persons, one becomes perfect. And out of millions of perfect, one may understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the version of Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy that everyone, each one will become Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. But by the grace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , this is helping. Otherwise, it is very difficult task. Very difficult. It is recommended in the śāstra , kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply the Kali-yuga, kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ (SB 12.3.51). This is the version of Śukadeva Gosvāmī. He described the faulty ocean of this Kali-yuga, and at last he encouraged that "Mahārāja, there is one opportunity in this age." Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ , very great opportunity. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya : simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet , he becomes liberated and he goes back to home. This opportunity we are preaching. That's all. Otherwise, to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. This opportunity, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya . And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also recommends, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalaṁ kalau nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21). Otherwise, in this age, very difficult. (break) *Guest (4): During the Kumbha*-melā we are having our anna-kṣetra to serve the direct sādhus. We already started our camp on 21st December to last after 10th of February. If Mahārāja and all other devotees, they can definitely offer free arrangements over there because we have got the best camp. We have got the best camp. Prabhupāda: So why should we spend for our camp? (laughter) Guest (4): We are just on the bed of the river, far away from the melā , which is about three, four . . . we have our āśramas at various places, you know. Prabhupāda: What is this philosophy? Guest (4): What is? Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy? Guest (4): Philosophy is bhajana , Ādi Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: But whether you recognize Kṛṣṇa . . . Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, he was our guru . We have published a book from the Calcutta University, so just take your remise. Leave the book for you. Prabhupāda: Oh, this is for me? Baithiye, baithiye. Thoda Vedānta philosophy par charcha kijiye. (Please sit, please sit. Let us have a small discussion on Vedānta philosophy.) Let us discuss. What is Vedānta philosophy? Let us discuss something. You belong to this camp, so what is Vedānta ? Guest (4): Ādi Śaṅkarācārya's preaching, actually defining God as what he thought. Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning? Everyone can think of God according to his whims. You say: "As he thought." That is not standard. Guest (4): So, what he describes . . . Prabhupāda: No, first of all, let us . . . whether if you think of God in your own way, is that valid or not? Guest (4): Because he has given a thought to it, you know. He has thought about it. *Prabhupāda: Anything might be the first*-class thought, but do you think that any man can think of God and create God? Do you think it is all right? Guest (4): Well, we are guided by those who have given a thought to it and who have meditated actually. Prabhupāda: You said that, "As he thought." Guest (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: So God is unlimited and you are limited. So how you can think of God? Guest (4): You see, I'll just quote one of his stanzas which reveal . . . Prabhupāda: I am talking . . . Guest (4): I understand your point of view, but I'm just, to Your Holiness, in the last stanza of his advaita philosophy, he says, ahaṁ nirvikalpo nirākāra rūpa vibhur apya sarvatra sarvendriyāṇi sadame sama . . . Prabhupāda: Who says " aham "? Guest (4): Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: That means a person is thinking of God. So that is my point, whether an individual person can think of God and ascertain that "Here is God." Guest (4): He comes to that particular conclusion, though, Your Holiness, he comes . . . he says that ahaṁ nirvikalpa nirākāra rūpa . . . Prabhupāda: So nirākāra . . . if you are speaking, then how he can become nirākāra ? Guest (4): He actually defines what prevails in the universe, what is that element which governs us. Prabhupāda: Let us just discuss from the point. As you say that, "I think" and "I speak," so when you speak, when you think, whether you are nirākāra or ākāra. Guest (4): He defines, ultimately, after all thinking . . . Prabhupāda: I am asking you. Guest (4): He has come to that conclusion. Prabhupāda: I'm asking you that when you think, when you . . . what is that other thing? Speak. So can anybody who is nirākāra , he can think and speak? Is there any experience? So what is the use of talking like that? Dr. Patel: Thinking is done by the mind, and mind is not soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. So, no, whatever it may be. If I think, if I speak, I am ākāra ; I'm not nirākāra . And that is for everyone. This is contra . . . Guest (4): What is that "everyone"? Prabhupāda: What it may be. First come to the platform of understanding. As soon as I think, I speak, this speaking, I'm thinking, is not coming from nirākāra. Guest (4): But what is that "I"? Prabhupāda: "I" means . . . what do you mean by "I"? I am person, you are person. When I say "I say," you say that we are person. So how you can say nirākāra ? It must be common knowledge. When I say "I speak," that is not nirākāra . How it can be nirākāra ? It is contradictory. Guest (4): It is not contradictory, but . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it is contradictory. Unless you have got a personality, you cannot speak, you cannot think. So how it is nirākāra ? That is my first point. Kṛṣṇa says " aham ." He is person. We worship Kṛṣṇa as person. He says, aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). That " aham ," He's person. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa as person because He says, aham ādir hi devānām . *He's person. Kṛṣṇa never said that, "I am nirākāra ." Where He has said? Can you quote any verse? When He says nirākāra , He says like this: mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam (BG 9.4). Mayā , "by Me." Tatam idaṁ sarvam , "everywhere, by My energy." Just like the sun-god. The sun-god is within the sun globe. His bodily luster is coming. The sun*-god can say: "The sunshine is my bodily exposition." That is reasonable. Just like a big light, it has got exposition. Similarly . . . and that is confirmed in the śāstra : yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (BS 5.40). Yasya , the person. *So when Kṛṣṇa said, mayā tatam idam , mayā means, "I am there." But "I" is existing. That "I", person, is existing. Just like if I say that "It is I who has expanded. I am expanded all over the world by this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement," that's a fact. But that does not mean I am not a person. If I say that, "I am . . . this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means I am, I am spread by spreading this movement," that's a fact. But does it mean that I am imperson? That is, Kṛṣṇa says: mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta*-mūrtinā. Avyakta . So the same example we can give that in all my branches, 110 branches, they worship me as their guru. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4): "Everything is existing on My management." Nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ : "But I am not there." It is a fact. All these 110 branches, they are going on under my direction, but not that I am present everywhere. But that does not mean I am not a person. So the supreme, the supreme manager, the supreme controller, how He can be nirākāra ? That is my first question. Dr. Patel: He means to say, sir, that the māyākāra is not there. But the divyākāra is there, as we say. Let us understand him. Prabhupāda: No, He . . . nirākāra is there. So far His management power is going on, that is nirākāra . But that nirākāra does not mean that I am also nirākāra . That is the defect. The Supreme Person, it is confirmed by the śāstra . The Absolute Truth is person ultimately. *So those who are simply captivated by the Brahman, nirākāra , they are in the . . . just in the beginning of knowledge. Their knowledge is not perfect. That is not Vedānta . That is knowledge, but it is not anta. And Vedānta means the ultimate knowledge. And that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). If one does not know Kṛṣṇa, he's not a Vedāntist. That is my point. He does not know what is Vedānta . The veda-anta means Kṛṣṇa. Anta means the last word. The last word is brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate . Bhagavān. Unless one goes to the Supreme Lord Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, he's not a Vedāntist. That is my point. Veda means knowledge. Dr. Patel: Sir, Śaṅkarācārya also said, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindam . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. One who says . . . we are studying from our common sense. Veda means knowledge, and anta means the last. And Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). So unless you know Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of Vedānta . There may be Veda . . . Guest (4): Knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Hah, knowledge. But that is not the ultimate knowledge. The ultimate knowledge will come when you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā : bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Therefore all these so-called Vedāntists, they will have to wait for many millions of years to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the position. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante . And if he's actually in knowledge, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate . That is the sign. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is wanted. So Vedāntist, so-called Vedāntist, we do not approve them because they have not come to the ultimate point of knowledge. This is clear. Veda means knowledge; *anta , anta means the last point. So unless you come to that last point of knowledge, that is not Vedānta . That may be Veda, but it is not Vedānta . Vedānta means māṁ prapadyate . Now, whether you approve these statements? Vedānta means to know Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedānta*-kṛd vedānta-vid ca aham . Dr. Patel: "I am the main meaning of the *Vedas* ." Prabhupāda: Yes, He is the . . . so He can speak what is Vedānta . And unless one accepts this Vedānta , he's not a Vedāntist. Therefore some of our Vaiṣṇava friends, they have given me this title, Bhaktivedanta. In 1947, something, they, purposefully, they gave me the title that Vedānta means bhakti . "So you take this title, 'Bhaktivedanta.' " And we are preaching this Vedānta , that the ultimate platform of Veda , knowledge, is to understand Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). So He's person; *He's speaking. So not that . . . the Māyāvādīs, they take that paratattva is the nirākāra*-brahman . But that is not paratattva . Here the person says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya . So if you have to accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme authority, then Vedānta means, He says also, to know Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, it is not anta. It may be middle, it may be beginning, but not anta . Dr. Patel: Sir, Śaṅkarācārya has made so many obstructs for this bhakti . And I mean to follow it . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, I'm talking of Kṛṣṇa. There are many other talkers. We are concerned because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. That's all. That is our philosophy. We may be fools and rascals, doesn't matter. But we accept what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all. Like a child, he's a child, he may be a fool. But when the father says: "My dear child, this is called microphone," and if the child says: "This is microphone," that is correct, because he takes the word of the father, who knows things. He may be child. So our business is like that. We don't claim ourself to be very learned, very advanced. We are fools and rascals. (break) *"How can I become guru ?" one may say: "I am not so learned, I am not so . . ." "No, no, you haven't got to bother. Still you can become guru ." "How?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "If you simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said, then you become guru ." That's all. So our business is that. We are guru not that because we are very learned, so-called Vedāntist. No. We are lowest of the lowest. But we are faithful to the words of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We have no other business. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has ordered, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bās . Very easy. And that is being effective. Now because I am carrying these words of Kṛṣṇa throughout the whole world, perhaps I have done the best service than the combined so much Vedāntists. All the Vedāntists of India could not do that. That's a fact. How it has become possible? Because we are simply speaking what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. That's all. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa . . . that's all. I do not claim that I am Sanskrit scholar, I am this big man, that man. No. Whatever books I have written, only about this—Kṛṣṇa. *In our book in every page you will find Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa. My Guru Mahārāja, if we used to write some article, so we wanted to show him how it is written. So he was very busy. So somebody would read, and Guru Mahārāja would say: "How many times he has said 'Kṛṣṇa'?" (laughter) If he finds that in every page there is "Kṛṣṇa," it is all right. That's all. (laughter) So we are making Vedāntist, "How many times he chants Kṛṣṇa?" If he chants always Kṛṣṇa, yes, he's Vedāntist. That's all. Bās . Because śāstra says, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). That is being effective. These boys, their forefathers or their father, grandfather, never knew what is Kṛṣṇa. But kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet . That is actually fact. So unless there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no question of Vedānta . That is my point. Ācchā . Jayenge . . . udhar nahi jana. (We shall go . . . but not there.) Dr. Patel: Zyada nahi bolne ka. (We should not say too much.) Prabhupāda: Nahi, Krishna naam to bolna hi hai. (No, we have to glorify Kṛṣṇa's holy name.) Dr. Patel: Krishna bolo magar gussa mat karo. (Take Kṛṣṇa's name but don't get angry.) Prabhupāda: Kirtaniyah sada harih. Krishna ka naam sab samay bolo. Ta aap log hum log ko thoda sahay kjiye Krishna naam prachar karne ke liye. ( Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ . Kṛṣṇa's name should be taken continuously. So all of you can kindly help me in spreading the holy name of Kṛṣṇa.) That is real Vedānta . And the Vedānta says also . . . if you actually read Vedānta , what is the beginning of Vedānta ? Boliye? (Tell me?) What is the beginning? Dr. Patel: Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Prabhupāda: This is not Vedānta . This is *Īśopaniṣad*. Devotee: Janmādy asya yataḥ . *Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This is Vedānta . Yes. That is Vedānta , Brahma*-sūtra . This is Vedānta . So this life is meant for Vedānta . Athāto brahma jijñāsā . And what is Brahman? Janmādy asya yataḥ . Brahman means the Supreme Soul of everything. And Kṛṣṇa replies, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Then Vedānta starts. I'm inquiring what is the ultimate source of everything, and here is the answer. If you don't believe, that is another thing. You go on talking like anything. That is another thing. But answer is there. Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So we have to go to such mahātmā who knows vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti . Then it will be all right. But if we want to waste time, that is another thing. *So I am very glad to see you. So I wish that you may spread real Vedānta . That is essence of Vedas . Vedānta means essence of Vedas . Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Light is . . . of course there is light in the sunshine and there is light in the sun globe, but the source of light is coming from the sun*-god. Just like electric bulb, thousand power. So the illumination is also light, and the source of illumination, the bulb, that is also light. And what is that? Filament within? That is also light. But what is the anta light? Not this illumination. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the original source of light. Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (BS 5.40). It is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā . So Brahman knowledge is partial Kṛṣṇa knowledge. Paramātmā knowledge, partial Kṛṣṇa knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa knowledge is perfect. So partial knowledge is also knowledge, but Vedānta means full knowledge. So unless you come to that point, it is not Vedānta . The another example is just like from a distant place you see one mountain. You'll see just like something cloud. It is not cloud; *it is the mountain. But because you are seeing from a distant place you see it is something cloud. If you go little further, you'll see something green, and when you actually go to the mountain you'll find so many trees, so many living entities, so many everything full of varieties. The same mountain, absolute knowledge, advaya*-jñāna , tattva-jñāna . If we accept tattva-jñāna from distant place it is Brahman. If you see that tattva-jñāna still nearer, then it is Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61). And when you go directly to the person, just like we are talking face to . . . that is possibility. And that possibility Kṛṣṇa comes to show us. That is indicated by Śukadeva Gosvāmī that: *When Kṛṣṇa was playing with His cowherd boys friend, so Śukadeva Gosvāmī says: "Who are these boys who are playing with Kṛṣṇa, who is the source of brahma*-sukha ?" Brahma-sukhānubhūtyā . These boys are playing with another boy known as Kṛṣṇa. He is the source of brahma-sukhānubhūti . And dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena : those who are devotees, for them He is the Supreme Lord. And māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa : and those who are under the influence of māyā , they are seeing He's an ordinary boy. But whatever He may be, these boys who are playing with Him, sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ (SB 10.12.11). After many, many lives' acquisition of pious activities, now he has got this opportunity to play with this boy, the source of brahma-sukha . Itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā . They are not playing with ordinary child. He is the source of brahma-sukha . This is the statement of Śukadeva Gosvāmī. *So if we come to Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is personally presenting Himself, that is Vedānta . Otherwise, bahūnāṁ janmanām . . . we have come to that point, but if we neglect, then it will take many, many births to come to that point. Because that is the ultimate. Unless we come to that point, to understand Kṛṣṇa, there is still scarcity of knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa says that, "When there is scarcity of knowledge, then I appear." Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). When the scarcity of knowledge is polluted . . . not only scarcity, but it is polluted, glāniḥ . Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glāniḥ . This is dharma , to come to the perfect knowledge. Human being must come to the perfect knowledge, because this is a boon. Not the cats and dogs can understand. Human being. So when there is glāniḥ , they are accepting the preliminary beginning of knowledge as the perfect knowledge, that is glāniḥ . Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca . . . (BG 4.8). These things are there. Dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya : to establish real religious system. Sambhavāmi yuge yuge . What is that real religious system? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). *Dr. Patel: Bhāgavata*-dharma . *Prabhupāda: No, this is real dharma . Bhāgavata*-dharma is real, Bhagavān. Bhāgavata-dharma means in a relationship with Bhagavān. So if you do not know Bhagavān, then what is this knowledge? That is the defect. All dharmas —there may be Christian dharma , Hindu dharma , this dharma , that dharma —ask any one of them, "Do you know Bhagavān?" "Zero. Nirākāra ." Nirākāra means zero. When you come to the right point: zero. No substance. Therefore they have got this prayer, nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe . This is going on. Śūnyavādi and nirviśeṣa , nirākāravādi . We say . . . there are so many points. We say that, "The supreme father," the Christians say. So how the supreme father can be nirākāra ? We have got experience, my father has ākāra . His father has got ākāra , his father has got ākāra . So if you go to the supreme father, now how He is nirākāra ? I may not have seen my great-grandfather but that does not mean he's nirākāra . So I may not have seen God but if God is supreme father, how He can be nirākāra ? Boliye apka isme koi bolne ka ho to boliye? (So, do you have anything to say on this?) Guest (2): Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, he's a person. His father must be person. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is common sense. If son of God, if the son has form, how the father hasn't got form? What do you say? I'm asking you, this English boy. How the father can be formless? Christ says that he's the son of God. Is it not? English devotee: He said he was, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. But he's a person. So how the father is imperson? What kind of father? Dr. Patel: Sir, instead of calling person, we say he's an individual. Person means this body. Prabhupāda: Person means individual. Dr. Patel: Individual. So God is an individual then? Prabhupāda: No, person. God is a person. Individual means person, individual person. Dr. Patel: They may think person means body. *Prabhupāda: Body or no body, that is separate thing. But when you say "individual," He is a person. And it is explained also in the Bhagavad . . . kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta*-cetasām (BG 12.5). Those who are inclined to the impersonal feature . . . God has got that impersonal feature. So they have to undergo more troubles to understand Him. And after going through troublesome business, bahūnāṁ janmanām , many, many births, then he understands, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam . . . here is the person." Everywhere this disease is very prominent, that God is impersonal. Perhaps this is the only movement in the world that's preaching, "No, God is person." Dr. Patel: All Vaiṣṇavas believe in the personal God. This is only one . . . (indistinct) . . . preach. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bring some prasāda . Distribute. (break) Guest (5): . . . camp. Let your group come and stay in our camp. Prabhupāda: No, no, we have already organized. We have also a organized camp. No, I would have saved this expenditure by joining your camp, but . . . *Guest (4): There is no question of expenditure. We welcome you and your institution over there. We have an arrangement for about two hundred tents, and we have got enough food to offer you, quality food, which you won't find in the whole of the Kumbha*-melā. Because originally . . . Prabhupāda: But suppose if we speak in this way, then you'll not agree. (laughter) Real food is finished. Only purīs , kachorīs . . . (laughter) Guest (4): We'll have more real food when you come over there. Prabhupāda: No, if you do not object our preaching like that, then I can go. Guest (4): Yes, definitely. Prabhupāda: Whether your Swāmījī will like that? Guest (4): No, of course. Because actually there is nothing against your preaching. Otherwise, I would not have come. Prabhupāda: No, this is a contradictory. We say God is person, and you say nirākāra . That is the difference. Why God should be nirākāra ? Guest (4): Ultimately, it is the . . . *Prabhupāda: Ultimately, you say nirākāra . We say ultimately ākāra . And that is the difference, gulf of difference. That is going on. We shall worship Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa there, with our ārati , just like we are doing in the temple. Perhaps your Swāmījī will not like this. And as soon as there is some contradiction . . . *Guest (4): No. Our main theme at the Kumbha*-melā is to speak direct to sādhus who come from Himalayas, because mainly since 150 years this institution is serving them at Hardwar and Prayaga. They don't walk down to Ujjain or Nasik. Mainly they come at Hardwar and Allahabad. Prabhupāda: So if you kindly give us a camp. But we shall preach this. Guest (4): You are at liberty. There is no ban on it. Actually, you see we, as we said, we are serving the humanity directly. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That all right. Nice. But sometimes, if somebody differs, that is not very palatable. Guest (4): No, no, Swāmījī. There is no . . . we welcome you there. I told Mangala when she came that we are not preaching a particular thing. We are going there to serve the people who come who are intellectual. Prabhupāda: For spiritual enlightenment. That's nice. Guest (4): Yes. And practically since many, many years our camp is considered as one of the best from all point of view—hygienic arrangements, food quality. We don't use dalda or anything. We have the pure ghee. There are people who give with heart. Prabhupāda: Suppose if you give us one camp, so how many men we can provide there? Guest (4): At least 50 to 100 people we can accommodate. Prabhupāda: No. Guest (4): Or if you want more . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Our men will not be fifty to so much. Suppose for us, if you spare one camp, so how many men we can accommodate there? Because . . . Guest (4): In one tent at least we can accommodate six people. Easily. With a drawing room and two bedrooms. We have the military tents. And just on the bed of the river. Prabhupāda: So how many men you are expecting? Girirāja: Fourteen. Prabhupāda: Fourteen. (break) Dr. Patel: . . . you can serve how many people? Guest (4): Each tent we'll accommodate with all sanitary conditions. We have in one tent, which is quite a big one, six people easily. With a drawing and two beds. Prabhupāda: So at least three camps we shall require. Guest (4): Three or five. Whatever. Swāmījī, number is immaterial. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . So why don't you do that? Dr. Patel: One for yourself and three to us. So four. Guest (4): I can even reserve for your institution six, eight, ten. Number is immaterial. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you take? Dr. Patel: That is very good. Five reserve karo. Apan . . . (Reserve five tents for us . . .) *Guest (4): Number is immaterial. We have the special boats plying from our camp, because what our principle is, our Gurudev, Paramahamsa devji had taught us . . . away from the melā , in seclusion. Now there is a bhāga , what is known as a yushi*-bhāga , and since last two hundred years all the director sādhus , they reside there because it is away from . . . *Prabhupāda: Munshi*-bhāga that is . . . Guest (4): Yushi. Yushi. So as it is away from melā , there is no hustle and bustle of the melā . It's a secluded place. And from there we ply our own boats. We have about six, eight boats that take you for snāna . In the early morning at four o'clock we have the snāna in the Ganges itself near our camp, because . . . Prabhupāda: Confluence, confluence. *Guest (4): On the spot. We are in the bed of the river, and this plot is reserved since last two hundred years for us from the government when the melā comes— Pūrṇa*-kumbha , Ardha-kumbha . And the boats ply from our spot downstream at Prayaga on the saṅgam . That we take them during the day according to the nakṣatra . Prabhupāda: These gentlemen offering, why not take advantage? Guru dāsa: If it's away from the melā there won't be so much preaching there. Guest (4): People will come to you when they know that you are there. There is no need to go. (laughter) Guest (5): You can still have a small place in melā itself. Guest (4): That publicity will go like this. Don't worry about it. When the sun shines nobody says that the sun has risen. It has risen. Guru dāsa: Vedāntists say, but no one else . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. So you take advantage of it. (everyone talking at once) Now is offering, you should . . . so immediately arrange for this. So Thik hai. Hum log ko dijiye kuch camp. (Okay. So please give us a few tents.) Guest (4): I'll telephone today and we'll make the arrangement at least for five to six, seven tents. *Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Then it will be very nice. We are willing to go there. And we must go there. It is Kumbha*-melā. So if you give us five to six camps it will be very nice. Guest (4): Even up to ten. You don't hesitate for the number. Prabhupāda: Thank you. He's so liberal. You are actually Brahman. (laughter) Brahman means unlimited. Guest (4): Virāṭ. Prabhupāda: Virāṭ. Bṛhatyad , bṛnghanatya iti brahman . Not only the largest, but increasing. That is Brahman. Bṛhatya bṛnghanatya . I'm very much thankful to you. So you arrange immediately. To phir iske liye jo kuch karna hai bol dijiye. (Please inform us about any formalities involved.) Guest (4): I will send a message today, and you will let me know the date. They will come and receive you either at the Benares airport or here at Allahabad station. Because it's not far away from Allahabad. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. I was in Allahabad for thirteen years. Guest (4): I know. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This Kumbha*-melā we have every year. Guest (4): First of all, you see, we have taken just near Yamunā bridge. As soon as the pilgrims come from various parts of the country we have got a . . . Prabhupāda: Yamunā bridge, there are two bridges. Guest (4): Just near Yamunā bridge there is an institution which belongs to Bombay, and that institution is reserved for us just to give a shelter first to people who come by rail. Prabhupāda: So take all these notes. We'll save so much money. Guest (4): Transit camp. Prabhupāda: So immediately. Guest (4): I'll come again, don't worry. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Now, distribute prasāda . Guest (4): Actually, you know, Swāmījī, I had stayed over here whenever he used to come. He passed away in 1960. Prabhupāda: Who? Guest (4): Our Swāmījī. He passed away at . . . (indistinct) . . . in 1960, 14th February. And he was very fond of Juhu since 1923, whenever he was coming to Bombay. Prabhupāda: Juhu is very nice, I know. Guest (4): But now the Juhu has lost its charm. I'm talking about 1923 up to '45. And he used to go deep in the sea up to two miles. He used to take us with him. Prabhupāda: That, one saintly person . . . what is his name? Guest (4): He was a Punjabi body. And mostly he resided in Gujarat. Developed five of his institutions. One in Ooty and two on Narmada and Tapti, and one is near Deoghar in Bihar. Prabhupāda: Bihar. Deoghar. Guest (4): Yes. One we have got in Hardwar itself. We have got a nice āśrama at Sapta Sarovara. I'll just show you one of his . . . because Juhu, whenever he was in Bombay he was at Juhu always. (indistinct comments by others) (break) He was residing at M. C. Satwar, you know, our Attorney General. Prabhupāda: He's Sindhi? Guest (4): Punjabi. Dr. Patel: He lived for 130 years. Prabhupāda: He's still living? Dr. Patel: No, he died only five years back. Guest (4): 1960. This must be one of . . . there was a crowd, you know, at M. C. Satwar's hall. M. C. Satwar had invited everybody from the high court, all the judges. So he was just having a chant with them. So "Swāmījī, we would like to hear you, something." He said: "I am an uneducated man. What can I say?" This was in 1956, just four years before he passed away. Then he was thinking what to tell these guys. Was just thinking for five, ten minutes. And then he spoke for two hours, spellbound. Beautiful. He was about 6 foot 4 inches in height. Prabhupāda: Real Punjabi. (laughter) Guest (4): And the color of his skin was as pink as the petal of the rose. He was a dynamic personality also. And the command over the language was superb. Just Your Holiness is quoting the Sanskrit quotations, just like Swami Gangeshvarananda, though he's a blind man. But you . . . he can quote from any chapter, any stanza, any couplet. He's also here at present. He's coming over there. Prabhupāda: No, he's my good friend. Guest (4): Yes. We had a word about you with him long back. Before, Swāmījī, Your Holiness came to India. Prabhupāda: He likes me. (laughter) Guest (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) *Guest (6): She is my daughter*-in-law. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . He's your son? Guest (6): He's my son. He has just come day before from London to . . . Prabhupāda: You live in London? Guest (6): No, he's studying. He's an executive with the German company over there via India, this German firm. And she is my daughter. And since . . . Prabhupāda: Khub sukhi raho. Krishna naam karo. (Everyone be happy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Everyone be happy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our . . . a good family. (break) *Guest (6): So his friend is my friend. (everyone talking at once) Swāmījī says, he gave a good comparison about the bulbs. Some bulbs have forty candles, some have twenty*-five, some a thousand. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jaya . So where is our Guru Mahārāja? Devotee: Guru dāsa Swami? Prabhupāda: He went away? Guest (4): So I'll see them again. Prabhupāda: All right, thank you. (break) Guest (4): We'll arrange for the best that we could. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Thank you very much. Guest (4): Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (break) Ap kidhar ke rehne wale ho? Oh apni bangali. (Where do you live? Oh you are a Bengali.) Guest (7): Na bangali noi, Bengal e chilo. Oi khane ghar. Ekhon ektu . . . (indistinct) . . . jani na ki, ektu treatment nite eshechi ekhane, Ahmedabad e. (No, I am not a Bengali but I used to live in Bengal in my own house. Now I have come to Ahmedabad for some treatment.) Prabhupāda: Bangla besh bhalo bolen. (You can speak Bengali very nicely.) Speaks Bengali very nice. Guest (7): Yes, he lived in Shanti Niketan four years . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So give him shelter. (end) Conversation A -- December 27, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: Hmm. Where is Jagadīśa? (break) . . . on the real goal of life. *Jagadīśa: Because they do not know that the goal of human life is to become freed from the repetition of birth and death, therefore there is no, as explained in the First Chapter of the First Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , The people in the age of Kali, the age of quarrel, have a short duration of life . . . Prabhupāda: (aside to child) Oh, you are tiger? How are you, Mr. Tiger? Indian man: This is Mr. Ganesh elder son. Prabhupāda: Now, a tiger? Your grandson? Indian man: Tiger. (Gujarati) Prabhupāda: No, he is . . . he is tiger? Ācchā . Thank you. Hmm. Go on. *Jagadīśa: People are lazy and unfortunate. They have no knowledge. And besides that, they are misled by foolish leaders. The leaders are intent only on deriving sense gratification from their so*-called high position. In the Bhāgavatam also it is explained that men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who do not glorify the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So the . . . it is a civilization of fools, a fool's paradise, where the common people are allowed to elect from amongst them one so-called leader who is the biggest rascal because he doesn't know anything, and none of the others, the common people, know anything about the purpose of life, and yet this so-called leader becomes elected on the basis that he can do something to help suffering humanity. The material existence is nothing but a struggle against material nature, which ultimately has no value. But it's an illusory struggle because of the spirit soul . . . Prabhupāda: Why it has no value? Jagadīśa: Because there is no . . . Prabhupāda: He'll not say that is has no value. You must give the reason why it has no value. *Jagadīśa: It has no value because there is no permanent connection between the spirit soul and the material energy. The spirit soul . . . there are two kinds of energy: material energy and spiritual energy. We have experience of both. The material energy is described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā . . . *Prabhupāda: You can describe like this: Just like if a man is diseased, so the physician imposes upon him some restriction, do and do not. So if by mistake we give up the do not's, then it is useless. He should observe the do not's. Then he'll be cured. And if he does not observe the do not's—whatever he likes, he does—that means his disease is increasing. Therefore it is useless. The real aim of life is how to get out of the clutches of māyā which is forcing me to accept the cycle of birth and death. That is my disease. Therefore tapasya. Tapasya means restricted life, not unrestricted life. So if we do not follow the restricted life, that means I shall continue my disease or increase my disease. The modern civilization, we are teaching how to enjoy this material world to the fullest extent, bhogaiśvarya , sense gratification, and for sense gratification, material opulence. But he does not know that he is killing himself. He is aggravating the disease. He has to accept another body. But that he does not know, that he'll have to take birth and die, again the same business. That he does not know. Therefore this civilization is misguided. Yesterday we were reading, tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We have to purify our existence. So this aim is missing—how to purify it. Sattva . I am eternal. Now I am existing in a condition, birth and death. That they do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). He does not know his interest. He's thinking, "This is life. Let me enjoy. And there is no life after death, and even there is, who cares for it?" This is going on. Guest (1) (Indian man): That tapasya means? Prabhupāda: Tapasya means restricted. Guest (1): Protect your mind . . . wed it to the soul, and take away from all extraneous things which are made up of māyā , is that not the meaning? *Prabhupāda: Tapasya means to rescue the soul from this material condition, yena sattvaṁ śuddhyet , to purify your existence. What is the impurification? Impurification is that the soul is subjected to repetition of birth and . . . that is impurification. That he does not know. So he is missing the goal of life, and he's thinking this temporary so*-called happiness for twenty years, forty years, fifty years, or utmost hundred years, that is his objective. That is a misleading. He does not know the aim of life. He thinks this material enjoyment to make this body stout and strong and enjoy senses like the hogs. Therefore it has been, na arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). The suar , hog, he is thinking, "I am eating stool. I am getting fatty. That is my life. And I am enjoying sex without any discrimination." No discrimination of sex, either mother or sister and daughter—it doesn't matter. This is hog's life. He does not know, as soon as he becomes fatty he'll be captured, and the bhaṅgīs will . . . what is called? Toast, make him a toast. In our country they do. In outside of the village they hang the pig, and with fire. Guest (1): Roast it. Prabhupāda: Roast. And he, it cries, " Chyaa, chyaa, chyaa ." And it is roasted, and they enjoy. But that he does not know. He is getting very strong, but he does not know that he's going to be roasted. Therefore he is misguided. He does not know nature's law. *Guest (1): Sir, isn't the real bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . dvijātmānaṁ brahma*-rūpaṁ deha-tyāgi vibhayaḥ tena kartavyam . . . (indistinct) . . . that type of bhakti is a tapasya . Then you . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But who is going to take the bhakti ? You are going to take sense enjoyment. Guest (1): That bhakti is a tapa itself. That bhakti is amongst the tapas. *Prabhupāda: Yes, bhakti means tapasya . Just like they are in the bhakti line, they are doing tapasya . They are rising early in the morning, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, observing maṅgala-ārati , no meat*-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, so many things. It is tapasya . Whole thing is tapasya, tapa , because by this tapasya the contamination of the soul will be cured. Then, if he understands Kṛṣṇa, then he is transferred to the spiritual world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). He does not come again to accept this material body, and he permanently lives in the spiritual world. That is perfection. The modern civilization, they do not know all these things. They are misguiding that, "You earn to your best extent. Work very hard like hogs." And there is advertisement, "Work hard, the next." (loud sounds of thunder as storm approaches) They are pulling on ṭhelā , rickshaw, still, their leaders advising, "Work hard. Work still more hard." A human being is pulling on ṭhelā and rickshaw, and still hard work. And that rascal does not know that this hard work like hogs and dogs will not make the solution. But they are enthusing, "Yes, work hard. Be stout and strong," as if becoming stout and strong will save him. That's not possible. Guest (1): Modern civilization is a civilization of class, and Vedic civilization was a civilization of soul. We can say that is all. *Prabhupāda: That is the real civilization. Soul is enwrapped with this material body, and it has to be stopped. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). That is civilization. And he has no knowledge, na te viduḥ , what is the civilization. Then andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The rascal leader is also blind and the followers are blind, so both of them are doomed. Therefore the conclusion is, the modern civilization is misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ . Big, big leaders, they promises big, big ideal that, "I shall give you this facility. Just elect me." What facility he will give? No facility. He gives some false promise and gets his election and claps. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). He does not know what is the aim of life. Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ . He is animal also. And the other animals clapping, "Oh, we have got such a big leader." Big elephant, yes. (laughter) And elephant he may be, but he is, after all, a animal. What he'll do? Misguided. (loud sounds of thunder) (welcomes guest) Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . You don't require any covering? Guest (2): No, I do, but . . . Guest (1): (indistinct Hindi) . . . my daughter. Prabhupāda: I have not seen him? Guest (1): He used to come. *Prabhupāda: So anyone's question about this, this misdirected civilization? In India there was no such misdirected civilization. Now they have learned how to misguide people, and they have taken this ideal, that "Unless we become like the Europeans and Americans, our progress is checked." This is going on. Actually there is no progress. We are condemned. Why they should waste so much energy for de*-gress, not for progress. Before British period, India, there were cities, but not like this, because their energy was utilized. Cities were constructed especially in pilgrimage place, like Mathurā. Mathurā is very old city, but that is a pilgrimage. Dvārakā, that is also very old city. First of all there was no need of big, big cities because there was no industry. They did not know what is industry. And there were ample food—food grains, milk, vegetables. Those who were eating meat, they were eating small, nonimportant animals like goats, hogs, and they never touched cows. Cows are very important animals. Even the stool, urine is important. They knew it. In the agricultural field the cows, passing stool, that is also benefit, natural fertilizing. Dr. Patel: And from cows' dung we have produced penicillin in Calcutta . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That may be, but why penicillin is required? Dr. Patel: No, but that means it had some value right from beginning. Our forefathers must have known it. Why they did not . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no, we are speaking . . . we are speaking . . . because it is important, therefore Kṛṣṇa said, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya . Why go-rakṣya required, you do not require any explanation. Kṛṣṇa said go-rakṣya , "You must protect." That's all. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Because we have no brain why Kṛṣṇa—giving up all other animals—He is giving stress on go . And that is meaning. He never said animal- rakṣya, paśu-rakṣya. No. Those who want to eat paśu , let them eat nonimportant like hogs and dogs. There are class of men who eat dogs also, hogs also. Or, utmost, goats. But don't touch cow. This is instruction. And modern civilization first of all killed all the cows. And when they are no more available, then can you eat other animals. I do not know why our government is now restricting cow slaughter. Dr. Patel: They have banned the cow slaughter all over India now. Prabhupāda: I know that. Eh. Guest (3): This is only in Maharashtra, on the . . . Dr. Patel: They are restricting in Maharashtra also. (indistinct comments on subject by guest) Prabhupāda: No, what is the reason all of a sudden they have good sense? Dr. Patel: Vinoba Bhave wanted it. Prabhupāda: Vinobe Bhave is not so important. There is government policy, something. Otherwise they could not care what Vinobe Bhave said. It is . . . don't think it is due to Vinoba Bhave's request. Dr. Patel: No, but that is what apparently . . . Prabhupāda: What Vinoba Bhave . . .? There were so many agitation for stopping cow slaughter, big, big, Karpatra Ji and others, others . . . Guest (4): One Shankaracarya fasted seventy days. Prabhupāda: Yes, so they didn't care. Now, all of a sudden, why this good sense? Vinoba Bhave is not very important. There is some policy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that Sanjay Gandhi, who is very influential, is a staunch supporter of Hinduism. Prabhupāda: Oh, that may be cause. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I read in the papers the other day. He addressed the youth of the Arya*-samaj to find out what the . . . (indistinct) . . . is. And he's the leader of the Arya-samaj also. Prabhupāda: I understand from our propaganda that one . . . what is the Swami? Devotee: Chandra Swami. Prabhupāda: Chandra Swami. He is the president? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, of Bharat . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He has recommended our case that, "This is the only institution who is making the Christian Hindu. Before this movement the Christian converted Hindus. Nobody could convert the Christian to become Hindu. And this is the only movement that is converting Christian to Hindu." So he is very much in favor of this movement, and it is understood that he talked with Indira Gandhi in telephone. So may be that if that Hindu movement is increasing, and in India the cow slaughter is going on, and it is against Hindu, might have considered like that. Dr. Patel: Pakistan has banned cow slaughter. Yes. Because they had done away by vengeance, all the cows. They wanted to spite the Hindus, kill the cows . . . (indistinct) Hari-śauri: I don't think they kill cows in China, either, because its economic value is too great. Prabhupāda: That means they are coming to the sense how cow is important. (pause) Hari-śauri: It is said that he wants to see me. *Hari-śauri: Yes, at Kumbha*-melā. *Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Before me, for the last two hundred years, so many svāmīs and yogīs went to the Western countries. Nobody could convert a single person to Hinduism. That is a fact in the history. These foreigners—giving up meat*-eating, illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling—it is a horrible thing for them. Lord Zetland said: "This is impossible for us." Actually it is impossible, because American government spent millions of dollars to stop this LSD intoxication, but it was not successful. But they have seen that as soon as the same boy comes to our camp, he immediately gives up, immediately, without any protest that, "Why shall I give up?" No. I ask, "You have to give up." "Yes, we shall do." That's a fact. Therefore this Swami Chit . . .? Jagadīśa: Chandra Swami. Prabhupāda: Ah, Chandra Swami, has strongly recommended that, "This is the only movement which is converting Christian into Hindu." He is pleased on this account. He is not interested our Hare . . . he has said that, "I am not very much interested in Hare Kṛṣṇa, but I am interested in this point." That is natural, that nobody could convert the Christian to Hindu, but this movement is doing that. Yaśomatīnandana: That is indirectly accepting Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. We do not make any compromise. Vivekananda went there. He came back. He said, "What is the wrong in meat*-eating?" He introduced meat-eating amongst his contemporary sannyāsīs . This is his Vedānta - pracāra . So he is advertised that he preached Vedānta all over America, and everyone has become Vedāntist. What is . . .? What kind of Vedāntist? Now, he introduced meat-eating amongst the sannyāsīs , which was never in India, any . . . there are two sets of sannyāsīs : the Śaṅkara-sampradāya and Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya. But their ācāra is the same. They may differ in philosophy, but their ācāra is the same. Rather, the Śaṅkara-sampradāya sannyāsī are more strict than the Vaiṣṇava sannyāsī . Śaṅkara sampradāya sannyāsī , they'll never occupy a seat, those who are strictly following. They'll sit down on the floor, without any āsana . They lie down on the floor. They are so renounced. And what is this, that sannyāsī smoking and drinking? And ordinary sannyāsīs , they are drinking also tea, one ghara . I have seen it. *Bhava*-bhūti: Now Rajneesh gives sannyāsī and sannyāsinī . Prabhupāda: Ācchā , yes. Sannyāsinī , woman sannyāsī . Yaśomatīnandana: It's just a mockery. He's not making any sannyāsī . He's not sannyāsa , he just gives name sannyāsa . Hari-śauri: Neo- sannyāsa he calls it. Prabhupāda: No, no, they dress like sannyāsī . Yaśomatīnandana: They dress, but they smoke bīḍīs , they . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: They say nava*-sannyāsa. They say nava-sannyāsa. Dr. Patel: Neo. Prabhupāda: Neo- sannyāsa . *Hari-śauri: There were three or four of them came to stay at the guesthouse in Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma guesthouse. Prabhupāda: Yes. Husband and wife sannyāsa . (laughter) *Hari-śauri: Yes. They were saying: "I am sannyāsī , and my brother is sannyāsī , and my wife is sannyāsī , but my mother*-in-law, she is not sannyāsī ." (laughter) *Prabhupāda: This is Kali*-yuga. Rascals, they are doing anything and any . . . *Yaśomatīnandana: And he also has written Bhagavad*-gītā , his own Bhagavad-gītā . Hari-śauri: It's five to seven. Prabhupāda: So let us go down. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . (end) Conversation A -- December 28, 1976, Bombay Girirāja: He made another point that in Krishna Shankar Shastri's compiling of the commentaries, commentators, that Śrīdhara Svāmī is given the first position. Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: But he says that is because he was the first, but it does not mean he was the best. Prabhupāda: (laughs) It is nonsense. Unless one is best, why he should be given first? Any . . . if there is any meeting, the most important man is given the first position. At least out of respect. Everyone has given first position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore praised. What is his nonsense arguments? Yaśomatīnandana: There are two other versions of *Bhāgavatam* . There also, Śrīdhara Svāmī has been considered the best commentator. Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepts. Svāmī nā māne yei jana veśyāra bhitare ( CC Antya 7.115). Everyone has given. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, iti svāmī caraṇa kahe . Jīva Gosvāmī, all authorities, they accept. And why they are criticizing Śrīdhara Svāmī? Girirāja: That is the main point. Prabhupāda: That is the main point. If you can criticize Śrīdhara Svāmī, then your criticism, why you take the criticism? Then others, you must be judged. Indian devotee: Because all of these other gurus , they are all devotees now, all of them. Prabhupāda: So what they are going to answer to this? Will you accept everything? Ask them. So when the rascal . . . (indistinct) . . . but exposes you, what answer you have got? Why you are silent? Silent means acceptance. Maunam . . . (indistinct) . . . if I say: "You are rascal, you are thief," and if you don't reply, that means you accept it. Maunam . . . (indistinct) . . . if you do not protest, and if you do not say anything . . . so such a big criticism from . . . (indistinct) . . . and they are silent. Why do they not go to the court? Bluff only. That means he accepts . . . (indistinct) . . . has been made here? (static—very indistinct for some time) (indistinct Hindi) Indian devotee: He was here also with . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Another (indistinct) . . . also . . . (indistinct) Indian devotee: He is son of . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja, but he is very envious. Very, very envious. I went to him, I remember, when we were . . . *Prabhupāda: They are envious of the Gauḍīya*-sampradāya, because of . . . (indistinct) . . . since a long time. *Yaśomatīnandana: But they cannot say anything against Gauḍīya*-sampradāya because Vallabhācārya glorified Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot say anything against Caitanya Mahāprabhu because Vallabhācārya glorified Him. Prabhupāda: No. He has written to . . . (indistinct) . . .? Girirāja: Yes. He made another point, that is, Vallabhācārya actually considered Caitanya Mahāprabhu as his superior. Then after this incident, still, he criticized Śrīdhara Swami. So that means he did not accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu as superior. Prabhupāda: There is no question of accept. He was plainly defeated. Because he said that . . . (indistinct) . . . even Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted his invitation after this. He also invited, and he also . . . (indistinct) . . . talk like that. So not only that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu criticized, but as soon as Vallabhācārya invited, He accepted. There was no enviousness. Rather friendly, sometimes they call others are . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu would accept invitation from Vallabhācārya? But they are habituated to criticize . . . (indistinct) . . . that Caitanya Mahāprabhu chastised him: "Why should you think like that?" In a friendly way . . . (indistinct) . . . they are still criticizing Śrīdhara Swami, and if others criticize them, "Why you are criticizing Śrīdhara Swami?" there is no answer. This is the position. (indistinct—only fragments of conversation audible for some time) *Hari-śauri: There was one . . . in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , there was one tax collector, a friend of Nityananda Prabhu, and then afterwards he was raided by the authorities, and his whole family and everything was completely finished. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian devotee: That was Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Hari-śauri: No, . . . (indistinct) Indian devotee: He was the same one who also tried to . . . besides, some of the Vallabhācārya devotees told me in Ahmedabad that . . . (indistinct) . . . is also as debauched as the other . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct comments by devotees) What is his qualification to speak as ācārya ? (indistinct comments by devotees) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Hari-śauri: They have no . . . (indistinct) . . . because they even refute what is in the śāstra . They were criticizing that Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja made mistakes when he wrote the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta also. Prabhupāda: They say like that? Hari-śauri: Yeah, he said that he didn't know . . . he wrote the wrong version in the section about Vallabhācārya, and that the real version is somewhere else. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Hari-śauri: Yeah, well they don't accept the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . they don't accept; *we don't accept you. The whole world is accepting Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . . . (indistinct) . . . all over the world, not only in India. All over the world. Is it not? (indistinct—fragmentary for some time) Indian devotee: They even told me . . . (indistinct) . . . that this sampradāya will be finished by the forces from the . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Gauḍīya*-sampradāya. So if the court decision is there, why not claim? (more indistinct fragments) (break) Girirāja: They're having a ceremony of bringing the flag. Devotee: Again? Girirāja: Yes. From the Nathdwara, Bombay, at some place. And they invited us to do kīrtana . Prabhupāda: You may go. You have no . . .? You can go. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Last time they would not let us distribute our magazines when they had it in Shrimati Morarji's house. They had the same ceremony in Shrimati Morarji's house here about a year ago, and they didn't like our book distribution there. Prabhupāda: What this time, where it will be held? Girirāja: This is an organization. This last time was Sumati Morarji's personal . . . Prabhupāda: Private house. This is organized function. You ask them a place to show our books. If they deny, then we don't go. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Jaya. Haribol . *Rādhā*-vallabha: This one parade in Los Angeles, the Rose Bowl, they distribute thousands of books on this one day. What happens is all the karmīs get out there, sometimes the night before—at least very, very early in the morning—and they line both sides of the road. Prabhupāda: To see? *Rādhā*-vallabha: To see, yes. Approximately a million people. About a million people, they're just lining both sides of the road, and the street is empty before the parade. So this year we're going to have the gurukula boys do a kīrtana and go right up the road. So one million people will see the saṅkīrtana party. Guru dāsa: And then it will be on television. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It will probably be on television. *Hari-śauri: They have a similar parade in Melbourne like that, called a Moomba. Three*-quarters of a million people come for it, and the whole city closes down. And they line up and down the main road and then they have a parade of floats. So they invited that we could put a float in, so Bali-mardana said he would try and get the ratha cart in. Three-quarters of a million people seeing Lord Jagannātha. Guru dāsa: Why don't you do that in Los Angeles? (break) (end) Conversation -- December 29, 1976, Bombay Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is the author of all these books that you see. These books are being translated in every major language of the world. Indian man (1): How many books in number? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Eighty*-four books of about four hundred pages each. Indian man (2): How many in vernacular languages printing? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About twenty*-one different languages they have been translated. Indian man (2): In India? Indian languages? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, international. French, Italian . . . Indian man (2): In India? Indian languages? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati, Tamil, Oriya, Bengali, Gujarati . . . every major Indian language. Indian man (1): Can you tell us the different subjects covered by the . . .? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's Vedic subjects. It's the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . *Prabhupāda: We are stressing especially on Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Indian man (2): You have printed outside India? Indian man (3): : Do you have special on each chapter of *Gītā* ? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Each word. You can show Bhagavad*-gītā . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a very authoritative presentation. For example, here's the original Sanskrit śloka , word for word . . . *Indian man (3): : (indistinct) . . . different . . . (indistinct) . . . for example, sāṅkhya*-yoga . You have a separate book? Then sthita-prajñā . You have a separate . . .? *Prabhupāda: No separately. It is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Indian man (3): : But that way, your volumes are dealing with each chapter of *Gītā* ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Each śloka . Each chapter. Guest (2): No, no. Not inside the book. Different volumes. Like eighteen chapters, but eighteen volumes. Prabhupāda: No, no. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. It's in one book. Twelve hundred pages. Indian man (3): : And the interpretation is by you yourself? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not interpretation. I am explaining as it is. You can read one. Indian man (3): : Have you tried to compare with *Gītā* written by Gyaneshvara, or by Vinoba Bhave or by somebody else? *Prabhupāda: According to Bhagavad*-gītā , if you don't follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā , you may be very learned scholar, whatever you write, it is lost. We follow that principle. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ ( BG 4.2). (aside) Find out this Fourth Chapter. Indian man (2): Have these books been reviewed in foreign papers? Prabhupāda: It is very widely read. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For example, in the Fourth Chapter Lord Kṛṣṇa says: *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that this Bhagavad*-gītā has to be received by the disciplic succession. And sa kālena yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . Because that disciplic succession is now broken, that yoga system is now lost. So all these interpreters, they are interpreting in their own way. Therefore it is lost. So there is no use of consulting this lost version. Indian man (3): : So you just give it as it is. *Prabhupāda: That is . . . therefore my Bhagavad*-gītā is named Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . No interpretation. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Each verse is the original Sanskrit śloka , English transliteration, word*-by-word meaning, so there's no room for manipulation. There's a translation and purport. Every book that Śrīla Prabhupāda has written has the same format, and each book is illustrated. Indian man (3): : Do you believe that the *Gītā* should be followed as it is, or interpretation is another thing? *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. If you read somebody's book, you must read the author's version. Why should you bring interpretation? This is . . . you have no business. If you want to say something of your philosophy, you can say, but why do you take Bhagavad*-gītā and give your own interpretation? That is very bad. Indian man (3): : But can you not apply your own philosophy . . . *Prabhupāda: Why? Why should you? If you take Bhagavad*-gītā , you should speak what Bhagavad-gītā is saying. And interpretation is required when the thing is not understood clearly. There you get interpretation. Unnecessarily, why should you interpret Bhagavad-gītā ? You have no right. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). So anyone can understand there is a place Kurukṣetra still. Why should you interpret, "Kurukṣetra means this body and this and that"? Why? What is the necessity? Do you think there is necessity? Indian man (3): : But just as . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all let us settle, that Bhagavad*-gītā begins: *So Mahābhārata is the history, and there was Battle of Kurukṣetra. And that Kurukṣetra is mentioned there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and it is dharma-kṣetra since Vedic age. So the word used, dharma-kṣetre and kuru-kṣetre , it is completely understood. Why should you interpret, unless you have got a motive? And why a sane man accepts that interpretation? If you have got a different philosophy, you can write your own book. Why should you cheat others, taking Bhagavad-gītā and interpreting in your own way? This has spoiled the whole thing. And Kṛṣṇa says that as soon as you deviate from the disciplic succession system, then it will be lost. So what is the use of reading something which is already lost? If I want to supply you something food, it must be fresh and palatable. Then you'll enjoy. But if it is rotten, decomposed, and if we supply you that foodstuff, what you will enjoy, and what you will get benefit out of it? Indian man (2): Most Hindus, they are not properly able to understand Kṛṣṇa direct. Prabhupāda: No, I have already explained that when you cannot understand, then you interpret. But when it is clearly understood, why should you interpret? Indian man (2): How you explain the act of Kṛṣṇa taking away the sārīs of the gopīs? *Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand Bhagavad*-gītā , then go to the sārī of gopī . You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa and you are going to His gopīs. This is another malinterpretation. You are studying Bhagavad-gītā . Talk of that. In the Bhagavad-gītā the gopīs' sārīs are not mentioned. So why you are bringing gopīs' sārīs now? This is our fault. Indian man (2): Normally, you know, our people . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. This is our fault There is no mention of gopīs' sārīs . We are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā , why you are bringing gopīs' sārīs ? Indian man (2): Because that . . . *Prabhupāda: Again "because." There is no subject matter there. You have no right to bring that. That is our fault—to bring a horse before a cart. We are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā . There is no mention of Kṛṣṇa and gopīs' sārīs there. So let us talk. Finish that. Indian man (3): : So you clearly said that interpretation is wrong. Prabhupāda: Interpretation means lost. Indian man (3): : No, no. You clearly said that interpretation is wrong. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): : What has been done all these years? Prabhupāda: If you have done all these years wrong, that does it not right. If all of them have done wrong, then combined together it does not become right. Indian man (3): : Will you repeat your . . . Prabhupāda: I mean to say if everyone has done wrong, then combined together will it become right? Hundreds of zeros will make one? It will remain zero. It will not be effective. Kṛṣṇa says, sa kālena yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . And what is the next line? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . Prabhupāda: Then? Next line? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya (BG 4.3). Prabhupāda: Sa eva ayam yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. "Therefore I am saying you again the old yoga system. It is not that because the time has changed, I am changing it." Somebody says: "Now it was spoken some millions of years ago. Now it is modern ways, I am explaining in the modern way." That is not the system. The system is, "I am speaking the same yoga system," yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. And they are modernizing, making compromise. That is naṣṭa . That is the defect. Therefore we did not get any benefit. And in the modern countries, before me, so many yogīs, svāmīs have been there for the last two hundred years. *Not a single person became a Hindu. Now they are calling "American Hindus." Why? Because it was lost. Rotten thing was given. Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa . If you supply something to me which is rotten and decomposed, such foodstuff, what shall I get benefit? Now they are getting benefit. Our mission is to put Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission that He said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Every one of you become a guru and deliver these persons, these fallen conditioned souls." That is your business. Now you can say, or I can say that, "How can I become guru ? I have no education, I have no talent. How can I become guru ?" The answer is, yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). You simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said, you become a guru . So we are doing like that. We haven't got to manufacture. We haven't got to take so much trouble or create it by our fertile brain. We are simply repeating what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. And see how it is effective. Indian man (1): Do you mean it that a man who is under so much tension can . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, try to see the distinction. Before me, so many people went. They misinterpreted Bhagavad*-gītā , there was no effect. And we are not misinterpreting. We are simply presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is given. That is the point. Everyone says: "Swāmījī, you have done wonderful thing." But I say: "I do not know any magic, jugglery. But wonderful thing is that I have not adulterated." That is wonderful. Otherwise, nothing wonderful. What I am saying? Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ (BG 9.34). I am creating them bhaktas , that's all. I am starting these temples and ask them that, "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. You become devotee, you always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. And they are giving up everything. Their father and mother, they are thinking, "They are our lost child." They are now giving the opposition. They have brought so many cases against me. *But unless it is effective, how they are feeling the weight? Now these boys, their father, mother constantly kidnap them, "Stay here." No, they will not stay. They'll not eat with their father, mother. So they think that, "Our son is lost." Other yogīs and svāmīs go, they give some method. And the son is there at home, "All right, a young man is going there." But here, their son is lost. Here their son is lost, and they are now called "American Hindus." So naturally they are very much against me. And counter movement is going on. They induce the government that, "This is not a religion. The svāmī knows some mind*-controlling power, and he's brainwashing." In this way, there is charge. So because America has got freedom of religion, so if they accept my movement as Hindu religion, they cannot do anything. The people are free to accept. But they are giving in a different charge, that I have manufactured something, that "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling—how people can accept all these things? They're brainwashed." There are so many charges. But anyone who comes to me, I don't make any compromise. Yes . . . (end) Conversation -- December 30, 1976, Bombay Girirāja: . . . cannot accept anything artificial, but Mr. Vijaya cannot keep up to that standard. Prabhupāda: Vinoba Bhave is also not cent percent. Girirāja: Oh, I know. But by chance, on this particular point . . . *Prabhupāda: He has written book, Bhagavad*-gītā Pravacana . But in his bhāṣya there is no kṛṣṇa-bhakti . So what is this Bhagavad-gītā Pravacana? Why he has avoided kṛṣṇa-bhakti? What is the reason? Girirāja: He's envious. *Prabhupāda: Gandhi has . . . the same thing. Bhagavad*-gītā . . . he is writing essays on Bhagavad-gītā and the main principle of Bhagavad-gītā , man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru ( BG 18.65), mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). What is that? Girirāja: Mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo 'si me. Prabhupāda: So where is that? Girirāja: They don't follow. *Prabhupāda: This is their defect. Therefore they are failure. Must be failure. They do not take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. They mix with their false ideas, and therefore spoil, adulterate. And bhagavad-bhakti is without adulteration. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167). Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). Pure. No adulteration. That is bhakti . Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). That is not nirmalam . Sa mala it is. With mala . With mala . Mala . It cannot be. Proportionately. So where she has sent this article? Girirāja: In some of the newspapers in Vidor, and maybe Nagpur. He's writing for about three or five copies of those original clippings. Prabhupāda: He has written very nicely. Good writer. Picked up the essence of the movement. That was published. Isko chapo. (Print this.) Indian man: Isko? (This?) Prabhupāda: So distribute them. (all talking together) Ye jab se hamare hindu magazine chape aisa kisi me bhi nahi hai. (Since our Hindu magazines have been printed, there has been no mention like this anywhere . . .) . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhāgavata Darśana? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Next issue. This issue is almost finished. Next one. Prabhupāda: Just stop this light. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct conversation with Girirāja) Gujarati. *Girirāja: Then it won't be just for Kumbha*-melā. Prabhupāda wanted it for Kumbha-melā. (break) Indian man: Well, I don't know. It will be a big program there from part of Madhava Mission. They've spent four lakhs rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They never . . . I never thought they had so much money even for their own projects. Indian man: They collect from the big sects . . . (indistinct) . . . he is very influenced. Any of the sects can give for this. For Kumbha Mela, all the Marwari want to wash off their all the sins they did. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: So explain with that purpose. At least, they are . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) You cannot give up these four things: yajña, dāna, tapasya . So yajña for the brahmacārīs , begin yajña . And dāna for the gṛhasthas , and tapasya for the sannyāsīs . Yajña*-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ na tyājyam , Kṛṣṇa says. Do not give up this, "I have become sannyāsī , therefore I'll give up my tapasya also." Sannyāsī means the life of tapasya . If you give up tapasya also, then what remains? How you become a sannyāsa ? Yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ na tyājyaṁ kāryam eva tat (BG 18.5). It must be continued. And again He stresses, yajño dānaṁ tapaś krya pāvanāni manīṣiṇām . Even if you think that you have become very great, "Now I'm very exalted personality. I don't require. I have become paramahaṁsa ," no, no, no, no. This yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyāḥ , even if you are very exalted, still, it will purify you more, these things. Yajño dānaṁ tapaś kriyāḥ pāvanāni manīṣiṇām . In any condition of life these things cannot be given up. *So those who are in sense, gṛhasthas , they must give in charity, at least fifty percent of their income. That was shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He, fifty percent. Dānam means not to the daridra*-nārāyaṇa . Dānam means to the brāhmaṇa , Vaiṣṇava. In our śāstra , charity is recommended to be given to the high-class men, brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas. They know how to spend money. Therefore dātavyam iti yad dānaṁ tad dānaṁ sāttvikam ucyate (BG 17.20). Just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are appreciating. So all the charity should come here. Then it is properly utilized. Because we do not use a single paisa for anything of sense gratification. We do not even smoke, we do not take tea, we lie down on the floor. Not a single paisa is spent for our sense gratification. Everything is utilized for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore all charity should come here. Properly spent. But if we misspend, that is our fault. Single paisa we spend for our sense gratification, that is fault of us. And people should give at least fifty percent of their income to this movement. Twenty-five percent to the family, and twenty-five percent let him keep for himself in case of emergency. *This is the example shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. So there was emergency. Everything they showed practically. Sanātana Gosvāmī was arrested. Whatever money they kept for themselves, that was given as bribe to the jail superintendent and got out of jail. This is example given by Gosvāmīs, that fifty percent was given to the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, fifty percent they deposited with the local . . . formerly, the bāniyās were bankers, village bankers. Whatever one has got, extra money, they should deposit, and the bāniyās will give him some interest and utilize the money. He will not usurp the money. People believe, just like bank, everywhere, crores of rupees they are collecting daily, because people know, "As soon as I shall want the money, it will be paid." So bāniyās were very honest. By others' money they would prosper, and the money is ready. Because they were doing with commodities, even he has no cash money he can immediately sell something and pay. That was the credit. That was the credit. Then people believed them. The village bankers were these grocers, especially the gold merchants. Therefore the gold merchants were bankers and dealers in gold. Suvarṇa*-vaṇik . They had position. They have got stock of ornaments, gold ornaments, silver utensils. So you can believe in him, that by putting in his custody one hundred, one thousand rupees, he can deliver, at any moment, the bankers. And Rūpa Gosvāmī did it practically. Some money for emergency, some money . . . relatives, they also expect. That is allowed. So they should be given something. Not that cent percent. At least twenty-five percent to the relatives and twenty-five percent for personal. And fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa. This is the system. *So this is called dānam . Kṛṣṇa also says, kuruṣva tad mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27): "If you want to give in charity, give it to Me." Kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam . Dadāsi yat. "If you have got some capacity to give something, give it to Me." He never said to daridra-nārāyaṇa . I do not know how they manufacture these things. Kṛṣṇa says: "Give it to Me." He's not daridra. He's Nārāyaṇa, but He's not daridra. So the principle is to give to the richest Nārāyaṇa, not daridra-nārāyaṇa . But these rascals misinterpret that daridra has become Nārāyaṇa. How daridra can become Nārāyaṇa? This is going on. And therefore there is no effect. There is no effect. See from practical what Vivekananda has done? But they have made propaganda, false propaganda—they have got roads. In a city like Bombay, big road, Vivekananda. But they do not care what Vivekananda has done. Indian devotee: Even they got road, in the road so many nonsense going on. Prabhupāda: That every road is there. We have no such thing. But he's not recognized in . . . wherefrom he has got the advertisement that in America he has done tremendous work? What they have done? Girirāja: The government may like to popularize him because he preached the cult of "work hard." Prabhupāda: What "work hard" he has . . . (indistinct) Indian man: He can't do anything himself. Indian devotee: Other day one man was telling me they bought two of your Bhāgavatams , Ramakrishna Mission. He said that one Ranganath Swami from South India, from Hyderabad, he was lecturing there, but he was . . . when he was lecturing he had your *Bhāgavatam* , First Canto, Part One in his hand, and he was speaking from there. (laughter) I said it is very good. Prabhupāda: Aap kidhar se aye hain? (Where have you come from?) Indian man: Mathura, Vrindavan. Prabhupāda: Accha. (I see.) Give him prasāda . Ye prasad pake jaiyega. (Have this prasadam and go.) Indian devotee: Many ācāryas , they imitate you. They read your books and take some of this part, and what is useful for them they use on their lecture. How we should stop them? (break) Hari-śauri: At least part of the lecture's going to be all right. (laughs) Prabhupāda: They cannot utilize my writing in their favor. Indian devotee: No, some of the thing they take for their favor. They glory their own. They read your books and they glorify their own. Prabhupāda: No, that is not . . . Indian devotee:': So we should stop them like that. Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't stop. They cannot do it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It means that Prabhupāda has influenced them to say what Prabhupāda has written. Prabhupāda: Ranganath was speaking from my book? Indian devotee: Yes, he was quoting that śloka , I remember, from First Canto, Part One. That one our Life Members . . . they were all the . . . all the big people, they goes there. So he told me when he came, he took a *Bhāgavatam* . He said that, "Today Ranganath had read your book." I said that they had bought two books from me. He said that he opened that like this. Then he saw the cover of our book, so he was quoting śloka from that, and he was reading the purport and giving speech on that. Because there is no such edition in English on *Bhāgavatam* except yours. So that I was very much pleased, actually, there to know when I heard that. Prabhupāda: In the beginning also they purchased. When I published three copies in Delhi they purchased, because such translation is not there. So, that is all. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation A -- December 31, 1976, Bombay *Prabhupāda: . . . so glorious. Glorious. He's glorious. That's all right. But kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī will imitate his behavior, but he is not fixed up. Therefore it is not good for him. He is forbidden. This is . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's forbidden to hear from a nondevotee. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They will commit so many mistakes, and they'll take it for granted. Just like this " nitāi*-gaura-rādhe-śyāma ." That is avoided for kaniṣṭha-adhikārī . There are so many mistakes, rasābhāsa . So two things are there always, two sides: one for the mahā-bhāgavata , one for the ordinary kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī . So in the temple it is to be supposed generally for the madhyama-adhikārī and kaniṣṭha-adhikārī especially. So in the temple we should not . . . Hari-śauri: We should just listen to whatever the ācāryas have . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: I remember once before, a few years ago, you sent a letter out saying that no one should try to compose songs or . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not encourage. What they will compose? They have no realization. But they're speaking something about Kṛṣṇa. That's his beginning. Just like a child, he speaks half*-broken. That is not language. It has no meaning. But still the child, "Ah, ah, you are so nice, you are so nice, you are so nice." Because he's trying to speak something: "Papa, mama." And mama is . . . not that his words are complete. Hari-śauri: When we go out and preach, and we just repeat or try to repeat whatever we've heard from the spiritual master, but we may not have fully realized what we're speaking about, does that somehow or another reduce the potency of the Gītā or the Bhāgavatam or . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, realization takes time. Therefore there is no question of realization. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says you simply repeat as Kṛṣṇa says. That will save you. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just repeating. *Prabhupāda: The so*-called political leaders, they have no realization, but they manufacture their ideas. That is dangerous. Mislead themselves and others. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam ( BG 13.8). This is the process of knowledge. These so-called scholars and politicians, they have no ācārya . Instead of being amānitvam , they're mani . . . "I have become a leader, so whatever I shall say, it will be accepted." This is going on. Very bad. It is clearly said, as soon as you give up the ācārya system it is rotten. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa (BG 4.2). So things which is rotten, what you'll get benefit? That is going on. *Therefore in spite of so many Gītā commentators, big, big leaders, scholars, not a single person is converted into a devotee. Not a single person amongst their followers. It's useless talking. Therefore it is forbidden. Avaiṣṇava*-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtam . . . (Padma Purāṇa). Because they are not Vaiṣṇava, politicians and . . . reject them immediately. Immediately. That is the injunction. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are so respectful. People have got . . . now you have got your svarāja . Please take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and let us preach." *Dr. Patel: Sir, Raj Gopalacharya in his commentary, he has mentioned that Bhagavad*-gītā should be learned through the ācāryas . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: As Gopalacharya has commented. He was a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Raj Gopalacharya was sensible man amongst the whole lot. Dr. Patel: He was a Vaiṣṇava cult. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. Chakravarty. So . . . (indistinct) . . . I say that amongst the whole lot he was a sane man, Raj Gopalacharya. Because by culture he's a Vaiṣṇava. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . agreement with Jawaharlal Nehru. Dr. Patel: He never was in agreement. Prabhupāda: Not a single item. He therefore resigned. He wanted to form his own party. Hari-śauri: Who's that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Raj Gopalacharya. Dr. Patel: If they had followed Raj Gopalacharya this country would have been far better in knowledge. Raj Gopalacharya. That is because he was paraṁ bhakta , to tell the truth, always. *Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate (SB 5.18.12). Therefore he was qualified. Anyway, if you are interested in Bhagavad*-gītā , how you can misinterpret? How you can put your own words to mislead people? How much misleading this is. *Hari-śauri: Actually, they're not interested in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: I knew all these things, but what I am? I have no position. *Dr. Patel: But what you have commented is correct. And the Bhagavad*-gītā , real thing is man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Instead they directed their attention to karma and this and that. It was . . . and similar thing . . . Prabhupāda: But because they did not learn subject matter from ācārya . Dr. Patel: Ācārya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Ācārya . One has to learn from the ācārya . Dr. Patel: Ācārya is one who ācāra , himself practices. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No. One who knows and practices. Ācinoti śāstra . One who knows the real purpose. And there is no difficulty of understanding the real purpose. It is clearly said, everything. The process of knowledge is given, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 13.8). Where is that? In the beginning, "Oh, I am such a big leader, politician. Whatever I say is nice." Dambha. Dambha . Because he's thinking puffed*-up, falsely. Some rascal fools give them clap. (Prabhupāda claps) They think, "Oh, I have become very great." Dr. Patel: Nowadays, sir, they collect people to clap them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Patel: Nowadays the politicians collect them. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. They make such a speech and practice. One political leader, he is young man, he was saying in Hyderabad . . . he was ambassador in . . . that Rao? Hari-śauri: Yes, Motilal Rao. Prabhupāda: So he did not know. He said that, "When I was going to be ambassador, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he told me that, "You first of all write a speech and practice it, and deliver it very nicely. Then they will applaud." This is Dr. Radhakrishnan. They want simply applause. That's all. Because they know, "If the public applauds, then I keep my position. I am . . . whatever nonsense I speak or whatever nonsense I . . . it doesn't matter." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Public support. Prabhupāda: Bās. That is their only business. Hari-śauri: Some of them, they don't even write their own speeches. They have a professional script writer. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professional writer and some speaker. Dr. Patel: All of them . . . (indistinct) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the President of the United States has a speech writer. *Prabhupāda: Learned scholar, English licensed. We know that Madanmohan Malhotra. And in those days Surendranath Bannerji was a great orator. You have heard his name? Surendranath Bannerji. He is the practically father of Indian nationalism. So he was I.C.S., and in those days English scholar. His father was very big doctor, Dr. Dugdhachandra Bannerji. So his speech, this Madanmohan Malhotra used to rote it, cram, and before a mirror he would speak like this, "Oh . . ." In this way he became a politician. He was smārta*-brāhmaṇa and he became a politician, simply by imitating Surendranath Bannerji's speech. Dr. Patel: Even those who are with Baroda Maharaja and all Maharaja's speeches were written by . . . (indistinct) . . . so one can . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is thinking "These are your ideas, Maharaja." "Well, everyone knows that I am writing it. It doesn't matter. I won't correct it." All the speeches given by Maharaja of Baroda was written by . . . (indistinct) . . . all, all, practically all. Here's a reference there. And he was a great scholar after all. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was English*-born. His father was medical man, Dr. Madanmohan Bannerji. Dr. Patel: They say he did not know even Bengali properly. *Prabhupāda: Yes. How he can? He was born in England, educated in England. He was English*-born. Dr. Patel: Then he became a master in Sanskrit. That is a great, I mean, intelligent . . . Prabhupāda: That may be. He was a scholar. They were big scholars. He was professor in Baroda University. Dr. Patel: Professor of French and Philosophy. Prabhupāda: There is one hall, Aurobindo Hall, in Baroda. Dr. Patel: All followers of Aurobindo are Bengalis and Gujaratis. Prabhupāda: Hmm. No, there are others, in foreign countries. He was scholar. *Dr. Patel: In the āśramas Bengalis and Gujaratis will go fifty*-fifty. There are some South Indians also there . . . (indistinct) . . . "You are from India?" He had a very big following of Gujaratis. Prabhupāda: Because he was first in Gujarat. Dr. Patel: Baroda Maharaja, when he, when he did not appear in horse riding test . . . (indistinct) . . . but he did not want to start the competition . . . (indistinct) . . . so he came. So Baroda . . . (indistinct) . . . Maharaja knew he has came. Baroda Maharaja was in England then. He called him, saying . . . (indistinct) . . . the same thing as the Britishers did at Baroda. That is, Baroda Maharaja was appreciated. Prabhupāda: No, he was a person to be appreciated. There is no doubt. He had so many qualifications. But he was also doing yoga practice. When he was put into . . . no, after getting released from jail, twelve years. He was to be hanged. Dr. Patel: C. R. Das. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: It was said that the man who was judge was his classmate in Cambridge, Oxford, or something like that. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Dr. Patel: C. R. Das made a very good speech. I have read all about what he . . . (indistinct) . . . for practicing yoga in jail. When he has himself written when he came to the minister's court. He felt that everywhere was Kṛṣṇa. Everyone was . . . he was seeing Kṛṣṇa everywhere. That was his feeling. So he would not be punished by anybody. But God is everywhere, even . . . (indistinct) . . . his brother was transported to the . . . he was to be hanged, and then he was transported to . . . (indistinct) . . . the Bengalis . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) This is the fact, that yato mata tato patha , whatever path you accept, that is authorized. He said that. Do you think it is bona fide? Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam , and he approves anything. Dr. Patel: He was a partial political leader also. Prabhupāda: That's all. He's a political leader. Dr. Patel: But then he had a great burning desire to see that India be free of British purpose. He was a real nationalist . . . *Prabhupāda: That even cats and dogs, they also want that, "My cats be well fed and be strong." That is not a very good position. And Bhagavad*-gītā says, aratiḥ putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu (BG 13.10). This is philosophy. And if one is attached to his homely happiness, he's not even a man of knowledge. Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: When Vivekananda came back from foreign tours, he brought three women, and one woman was intimately connected with him. Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You, you have seen yourself. Why there was no men in America? He came back . . . Dr. Patel: I think he was a brahmacārī throughout. Prabhupāda: You do not know. There is an old man . . . some old woman, he said about he's connected. Dr. Patel: Subash Candra Bose . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Marriage is good. But to keep illicit sex, that's the most sinful activity. Marriage is allowed. Dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi (BG 7.11). That is not against. Dr. Patel: Great number of luminaries have been produced by Bengal. Last year we read in Times of India more luminaries were produced in Bengal than any other Indian province. Prabhupāda: No, Bengal . . . they maintained the culture. But therefore I say that Vivekananda broke that Bengali culture. *Dr. Patel: Bengali culture is fish*-eating. Even Brāhmiṇs eating. Prabhupāda: No. They are eating fish only. Because Bengal is full of rivers. But not for all. Mass of people, that's a fact. But he introduced, "You can eat anything. It has nothing to do with religion." In Bengal in our childhood we have seen if anyone was habituated to take meat . . . the common man would not. Rich man. The rich men they have their sahis. Sahis you know, who takes care of the horse. So he would cook in the horse shed. Dr. Patel: And eat there. Prabhupāda: No. Then he'll bring the . . . (indistinct) . . . and eat it. It was never brought within the precincts of the house. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) . . . Gujarat and Maharashtra . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no . . . these people who were eating meat, they knew that "I am doing wrong." But Vivekananda approved, "No, it is not wrong." It is wrong. "Whatever you like, you can do." Then they began to eat meat. Fish they were already eating. Meat and chicken and eggs and everything. Dr. Patel: All the sons of Vallabhācārya's followers are eating. Prabhupāda: No, everyone is eating. I know that. Therefore our first regulation is you must give it up. Then we talk of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Patel: My son . . . (indistinct) . . . he does not even eat tomatoes, saying that if you . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Tomato was not taken. Dr. Patel: No, no. That is what he says: "I won't eat." He does not eat because his mother was 100% vegetarian, and we would not allow even . . . Prabhupāda: In our childhood no one would eat the tomato. It is not . . . it is red color, but everything vilāti . It is called vilāti baigun . So no one would touch. Hari-śauri: Tomato? Prabhupāda: There was prejudice, because it was brought from . . . even potato. Strict Hindu would not take potato. Potato was imported from England. It was not produced . . . just like tulasī. Tulasī plant we have imported, exported. Similarly, so many things . . . Dr. Patel: They have not allowed tulasī to be grown in America. Prabhupāda: Oh, no? Who said? Dr. Patel: Mr. Shaheb . . . (indistinct) . . . tulasī plant for his daughter. Prabhupāda: No, we have got so many tulasī plants. Hari-śauri: Every one of our centers has so many tulasīs . *Prabhupāda: Every temple we have got big, big tulasī . Especially Hawaii we have got six*-feet-high tulasī . Dr. Patel: I have . . . (indistinct) . . . they won't allow plant. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is agriculture. You cannot take any plant. Not only tulasī. Any plant from India. Dr. Patel: You may take away the diseases. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Not only tulasī plant, any plant you cannot take. You cannot take any vegetables. There is agricultural restriction. Dr. Patel: But I think tulasī can be grown in all the countries. Even in the cold. Prabhupāda: In the cold countries with little care. Dr. Patel: England? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got tulasī . Dr. Patel: You may have to keep it in hothouse during winter. Prabhupāda: Yes. We make that arrangement. And what Vivekananda said, that "It is better to water eggplant tree. Why tulasī plant? What you will get?" Eggplant tree means you'll get some eggplant, baigun . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . this is his culture. "Make your body strong and stout by eating meat, and there is nothing to do with the . . ." Dr. Patel: The result will be the same as Gandhi's . . . (indistinct) . . . this slaughterhouse, so abominable and so horrible. When I first came to Bombay from my village and I had to pass through that railway, that nasty butcher house. It was so horrible smelling, and those vultures sitting on the . . . I became spite of myself, when I came in Bombay. I had to join the grammatical college here. Prabhupāda: You were . . . two thousand years ago, Christ, he was born in Jewish family, he was horrified by seeing animal sacrifices in the synagogue. Therefore his first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." He was so horrified. Why he has given this commandment? He was so much horrified: "What is this?" Therefore he gave up the Jewish religion. He started his own. This is the history. And he, first commandment, "Thou shall not kill." Dr. Patel: And the Jews were killing the pigeons in the temple. Prabhupāda: They are very expert in killing. Dr. Patel: I don't know how the religiosity could even . . . Prabhupāda: So where is religion? Dr. Patel: They have misinterpreted religion. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavatam has criticized all so*-called religion. Dr. Patel: One patient of mine, Sardar Patel, he's a old . . . (indistinct) . . . from Hindus and Muslim. And . . . (indistinct) . . . what they call it, killing of their . . . Prabhupāda: Muslims are also restricted . . . (break) . . . for some purpose. Therefore they are called karmīs . Actually, it is for satisfying Viṣṇu. Without Viṣṇu's satisfaction nothing can be done. So those who are desiring some material grants, they used to perform this ritualistic ceremonies. It is not for the devotee. Dr. Patel: For devotee, Kṛṣṇa has said: "I am yajña , and I am also hutam , and I am also performer of yajña ." Prabhupāda: Yes. Because He gives the intelligence. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). Unless He gives smṛti , he cannot chant the mantra . "Therefore actually I am performer." Dr. Patel: Ahaṁ kratur ahaṁ yajñaḥ . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore He says: "I am performer. If I give him instruction, he does something, so he is not doing, I am doing. I say: 'Do like this,' and he does like that, then he's not performer; *I am performer." So whatever mantra they are chanting, if Kṛṣṇa does not give him intelligence, he cannot do that. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). "Everyone, whatever we are doing, it is being supplied, the intelligence, the everything, but according to My desires." So I cannot do anything independently. Just like we are constructing, practically, with the sanction of the Municipality, the sanction of the government. Independently I cannot do. Similarly, we cannot anything without sanction of God. But that sanction is, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). I insist, "God, give me this facility, give me this facility." "All right. You do it at your risk." But God says that, "You don't do this." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). "What I say, you do. Then you'll be happy. What I dictate, you do. But you are dictating Me. Because you are My son, what can I do? All right. Do it." Dr. Patel: (laughs) "I grant you whatever you . . ." *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the position. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasām (BG 7.23). "Because you are rascal, less intelligent, you are doing this, but this will not endure. You'll be a failure. Better what I say, you do. Then you'll be happy." This is the whole instruction. "You cannot do without My sanction. But you are insisting. What can I do? All right. Do it." Dr. Patel: "I grant you. And take the fruit and realize." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He's there. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni (BG 18.61). If you have done, then you must suffer or enjoy. That's all. That is your business. You get . . . "Now you have created a karma . You have to enjoy it by accepting a certain type of body. Now you take it. I ask māyā , 'Give him this body. He wants to eat stool.' 'All right. Give him the body of a hog.' " Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. The yantra , the body, is supplied by māyā under the order. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate (BG 9.10). Everything is there. But these things they do not preach. They preach unnecessarily nonviolence. From Bhagavad-gītā , which is being taught in the battlefield, and Gandhi wants to draw some meaning, nonviolence. Immediately it is . . . what is the value? Not only Gandhi, everyone. If he can give a new interpretation . . . I think in Bombay, was there any Dr. Reilly? He wrote some Bhagavad-gītā commentary as . . . Dr. Patel: I think it's not that Reilly. Not that Reilly, Dr. Reilly, but there is another Reilly in Baroda who taught . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Dr. Patel: . . . sanskrit to . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. He has interpreted Bhagavad*-gītā , patient and physician. Dr. Patel: Patient and physician. That may be this Reilly then. He was the dean of one of the medical colleges. *Prabhupāda: Ah. So he has written that Kṛṣṇa is the physician and Arjuna is the patient. And he has interpreted in that way. There are 645 like that, this, what is called, unauthoritative commentaries, without touching the spirit of Bhagavad*-gītā . *Dr. Patel: Best commentary is the Bhagavad*-gītā itself. It needs no commentary. It is so simple to understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. Prabhupāda: And commentary, interpretation, required when you cannot understand. Dr. Patel: It is very easy to understand. Prabhupāda: It is very easy, and still these rogues will exploit and mislead people. This is the fact. And perhaps this is the first time I am pointing out. Before that nobody did. Dr. Patel: And you wrote . . . I have read your commentary twice, and it has become very harsh on those people. *Prabhupāda: I must be. They are doing wrong thing. They are doing great harm to the . . . they are misleading the people. If I become little more powerful, I shall do it more harshly. I did not show, because I was non*-entity. But I knew it. Now people are taking me little seriously, I am talking. (break) In the beginning I thought, "Who will hear me? Better wait for the time." Therefore I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that, "Now you have got your svarāja . Please come, let us preach Bhagavad-gītā ." You have seen. If he would have given the chance at that time, then long ago this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement would have been started. *Dr. Patel: He had only anāsakti- yoga . Anāsakti - yoga , Second Chapter, Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: He has expanded his āsakti from his family to the whole nation. That is not anāsakti . Expanded āsakti is not anāsakti . I'm thinking only of my family, and if I think of the whole nation, that does not mean anāsakti . That means āsakti expanded. I am a pickpocket. If I become a great plunderer, that does not mean I am not a thief. You cannot say pickpocket is thief and a great plunderer is a hero. The quality is there. Hari-śauri: There's that story about Alexander and the thief. Prabhupāda: Ah, Alexander and the thief. The thief convinced him, "Alexander, what is the difference between you and me? (laughter) I'm a small thief, you are a big thief, that's all." (entering car) Dr. Patel: I will drive the car for today. Prabhupāda: All right. No, no, why you . . . (indistinct) . . . young man . . . (break) . . . the world . . . (break) (end) Morning Walk -- January 2, 1976, Madras Prabhupāda: What is the time now? Pañcadraviḍa: Indian 6:35. Prabhupāda: [break] ...fire, explain. Harikeśa: Oh, because people can't see life in fire, they think there's no life in it, so therefore there's no life in the sun. But it's just like the Tata factory. When you see it from a distance there's many planes and fires, but inside there's many people who are working. Therefore just because you can't see life in fire doesn't mean it's not there. We see life in the earth, we see life in the water, we see life in the air, so why not in the fire? Is that all right? Prabhupāda: Now question, answer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, one question is that the people in the Tata factory are not actually in the fire. *Prabhupāda: So they are also not in the fire. I say even if it is in the fire, there is no harm because the living soul is not burned to fire. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Adāhyo 'yam. Dāhya. Dāhya means burned. It is not burned. These are wrong conception. Because they have no conception of the soul, they think bhaṣmi bhūtasya dehasya: "When the body is burned, then the soul is also burned." If the soul is burned, then where is the question of tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]? How? In the Hindu system they burn the body. So if the soul is also burned, then where is punar janma? You? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can accept that the soul is not burned, but what about the body? Prabhupāda: Body is burned. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So how can any body live in the sun? *Prabhupāda: So they are.... No, if.... They have got fiery body. As your body is made of earth, the fish body is made of water, and the so many others, different elements, so similarly, there the body is made of earth..., er, fire, fiery body. The so*-called scientist, educationist, they.... Everything they conclude according to his own position. Therefore avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. They think Kṛṣṇa also "like me." Acyutānanda: The fish is in the water, but the fish is not water. Prabhupāda: No, fish is not water, but he has got a body suitable for the water. Acyutānanda: So the people on the sun have earthly bodies... Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: ...who can tolerate heat. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no heat. They live.... Just like.... They are not suffocated. They don't feel any inconvenience. They enjoy. Against the waves they enjoy. You cannot go against the waves. They can go, even small fish. You'll find within this there are so many animals, so many. How they are living? Acyutānanda: Also science cannot explain how it is burning. Where is the fuel supply? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Acyutānanda: And there is no smoke, no waste. Prabhupāda: Nothing. They are all.... Therefore we say simply "rascals." We have given this title to them everlastingly. All rascals, mūḍha. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. How Kṛṣṇa is working, they do not know. This is Bay of Bengal. Other side is Burma. [break] ...are so strong, it will never be drowned. Eh? (Hindi) The scientist says there is no life. Just disagree with them. Acyutānanda: No life? Prabhupāda: Scientists, yes, they say there is no life in the sun. Acyutānanda: In the sun. Prabhupāda: No, they say in every planet there is no life. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, only the earth planet. Acyutānanda: Well, they have to qualify. They say, "life as we know it." Prabhupāda: Hm? Acyutānanda: They say, "There is no life as we know it," but there's some forms of life that they don't know. Prabhupāda: So, but no, no. "As we know," but what do you know? You are rascal. Devotee: They are trying by radio waves to reach people. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Sarva*-ga, this word is. Sarva-ga. Jivātmā (Hindi)... Devotee: [break] ...sending radio signals to faraway galaxies. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of their radios? Do you think that their radios are perfect? Do you think so? What, Acyutānanda Mahārāja? Radio perfect? It is not perfect. Acyutānanda: And I think the demigods and higher beings, they can disturb all their radio attempts. Prabhupāda: No, apart from that... Acyutānanda: Because they don't want trespassers. Prabhupāda: ...how you can accept their radio machine are perfect? Because it is made by imperfect person, so how it can be perfect? If the manufacturer is imperfect, how he can make perfect machine? Nothing is perfect. *Acyutānanda: Actually the United States government has a whole agency for unidentified flying objects that people have seen that they keep secret so as not to frighten the whole America thinking that visitors from other planets will come. But there are many incidents of pilots who fly around in airplanes, who see other strange*-looking objects coming at them, flying at them, or people from the ground have seen many. Devotee: One guy testified that he was picked up and taken away for four days. Acyutānanda: Well, that was... Prabhupāda: What they are? They are police? No. Mounted police? Acyutānanda: Yes, mounted police. Prabhupāda: A mounted police here? Acyutānanda: Saber. Sword. Devotee: Oh, it's a stick. Acyutānanda: Oh, yes, lāṭhī, made like a stick. Yes. Prabhupāda: [break] Why they are guarding here? Acyutānanda: I think for the horses. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're exercising the horse. Acyutānanda: [break] ...house in Bengali. Is this where Swami Vivekananda... Prabhupāda: Yes. After coming back from foreign countries, he made his position here in Madras. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Beautiful building. Acyutānanda: In Calcutta we have a life member, Veni Śaṅkara Sharma? You stayed at his house? Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. Acyutānanda: So he wrote a book called An Unknown Chapter of the Life of Swami Vivekananda. And in there he openly says that he smoked a hookah and ate meat. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is known to everyone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Was he praising that? Acyutānanda: It was.... You know... Yaśodānandana: In Hyderabad there is a cook who used to cook for the Rāmakrishna Mission, and he said they used to cook any kind of meat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: I said, "Did you ever cook human meat?" He said, "If they told me, I would have done that also." There was nothing beyond their diet. "Anything they told me to cook..." Prabhupāda: This building belongs to Vivekananda's society, no? Vivekananda house. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is that? Acyutānanda: That's Bengali. "The house of Vivekananda." Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Acyutānanda: They say Swami Vivekananda walked barefoot all over India at some stage of his... Prabhupāda: Hm? Acyutānanda: That.... This statue here is his life as a wandering sādhu. Prabhupāda: Who is a sādhu? Then question is, who is a sādhu? Who is a sādhu? You cannot say? Acyutānanda: One who is Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Prabhupāda: Api cet sudarācaro bhajate mām ananya*-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Unless one is cent percent Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is not a sādhu. Sādhu-bhūṣaṇa. This is sādhu. Yaśodānandana: This is the vehicle in which we travel. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yaśodānandana: This vehicle is the vehicle in which we travel to all the different cities for making the life members and arranging all the programs in South India, this vehicle. Prabhupāda: This is your own? Yaśodānandana: We are renting. Prabhupāda: When I was in South Africa... Indian man (1): South Africa. Prabhupāda: Yes, Johannesburg. This beach reminds me of that beach. You were with me? Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: All statues are crying here. Acyutānanda: This is Annie Besant. Prabhupāda: [break] ...avatāra here, and she also came from Ireland to become avatāra here. Acyutānanda: I heard how she became interested in the *Gītā*. She was Christian, and her infant died. So she asked priests, "Where will this soul go, to heaven or hell? And why? Because he hasn't done anything." So she was never satisfied with their answers. So then she heard that there is transmigration of the soul. Then she became interested in the *Gītā*, India. Prabhupāda: So did she understand? Acyutānanda: Well, only up to transmigration of the soul. Prabhupāda: She admits. Acyutānanda: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: It was open? If there are any doubt. [break] Indian man (2): ...all practical things... Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (2): ...political things. Two and two will always be four. But we people don't agree so far. Prabhupāda: Yes. You want five. Indian man (2): (laughter) We want five, correct. Four to make it five. *Prabhupāda: There is a story that a grocer's son was doing business, and when he was given a five*-rupees' note, so he was giving four rupees. So the customer said, "Why you are giving me four rupees?" "No, I do not know what is the exchange." "No, it is six rupees." So "No, father will be angry." (laughter) Means he knows perfectly well what is five rupees, but he is innocent when he was giving four rupees. And when the customer wanted six rupees, he, "No, my father will be angry." [break] ...created a havoc by misinterpreting Bhagavad-gītā, all people. According to their wish, "Five-rupees note means four rupees," by imagination. They have created havoc all over the world. Otherwise everything is there. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. If we take Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then whole world becomes immediately happy. But they will not take it. They will manufacture their own, two plus two equal to five or three, not exactly the four. Indian man (3): So all anxiety and duḥkha have been created by the man himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. They have created. Indian man (3): Nobody else is doing for him, but he created himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): And then he said, "I am in misery. I am in trouble." Trouble is created by you. Nobody has created. *Prabhupāda: So that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, that mind is the enemy and mind is the friend. So we created our mind, enemy or friend, and we suffer for that. Indian man (3): Mind is very, very powerful. How to make use of that? Actually mind is using the man; man is not using his mind. Prabhupāda: In the Bhāgavata it is said, yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcana sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. In another line... Harikeśa: Harāv abhakta? *Prabhupāda: Eh? Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā mano-rathenāsato dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. One who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has got all the good qualities. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcana sarvair guṇaiḥ: "All good qualities can be manifest." And harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ: "And one who is not devotee, he has no good qualities." "Why? He is so educated." No, mano-rathena: "He is hovering over the mind." Asāto dhāvato bahiḥ: "He will stick to this asat." But the Vedic injunction is asato mā sad gamaya. He cannot go to the real platform of life. Asato bahiḥ. They do not understand that this godless civilization is the root cause of all calamities in the world. (Hindi) Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. The Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Twenty-four hours you have to do that. But where is twenty-four hours? You will not twenty-four minutes. (Hindi) (Hindi) ...*Nectar of Instruction*. I have recently published. (Hindi) There were no book for sale? Indian man (4): Book was not in sale yesterday. Mahamsa: That book is not available in India, Prabhupāda. Acyutānanda: It's a brand new book. Prabhupāda: No, no, other books, they are not... Mahamsa: Other books were there. They were on the book table. There was a book table. Indian man (4): Where it is? Mahamsa: Many people were purchasing books. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Prominent place. (Hindi) Keep in prominent place so that others can see. And any book which is not in stock, you can note down his order so that you can send him later on. Indian man (5): He will come every day. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (5): Mostly he approaching every member. Prabhupāda: No, recently we have published very important book, *Nectar of Instruction*. For common man it is very nice. [break] Yesterday's lecture you liked? Indian men: Yes. (Hindi) [break] Dhṛṣṭadyumna: ...sleep on the streets. They've arranged this housing, it is very minimal. So what many of these slumdwellers do when people are living on the streets is they come here, and they go back and live on the streets, but they rent out the apartment that the government has given them and they keep the money. They go back and live on the streets. Indian man (1): This houses? This is all rented by the government and given free of charge to the poor to clear the slums. Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata says, (Hindi) So three classes of men are there: upper class, middle class. You cannot change it. It is laws of nature. Indian man (1): (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Just like Vivekananda philosophy, daridra*-nārāyaṇa. (Hindi) How you can change this? (Hindi) First duty is, first of all enlighten them with knowledge. That is required, not by external bodily comforts. (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 3, 1976, Nellore Prabhupāda: They boil it with.... Oh, you have come. Good morning. Thank you. With rice. I forgot your name. Keśavalāl Trivedi: Keśavalāl Trivedi. Prabhupāda: Trivedi, Mr. Trivedi, yes. So, who is independent? This is our question. Who is independent? Do you know any man who is independent or any animal or any...? Keśavalāl Trivedi: No. Prabhupāda: So why they are thinking independently? Keśavalāl Trivedi: Unless we have got the identity, correct identity, we cannot be independent. Prabhupāda: What is this? Mahāmṣa: This is keys for the lock, Prabhupāda. It fell down. Prabhupāda: I think somebody has left. Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes, there is lock and chain. Mahāmṣa: This way, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Which way? This is natural lake or...? Mahāmṣa: Yes, Prabhupāda. It never dries up. It stays full all year round. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gigantic. Like the Hyderabad lake. Mahāmṣa: It looks bigger than the Hyderabad lake. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bigger. Prabhupāda: [break] So if you are not independent, what is the value of your thinking independently? Keśavalāl Trivedi: Absolutely none. None. Prabhupāda: But everyone is thinking independently. Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes. That is māyā. That is the māyā, that which is not. Prabhupāda: They are making plans, theories, "ism." What is the value of this? Keśavalāl Trivedi: Absolutely none. *Prabhupāda: Therefore everything is becoming failure. So preach this truth to the world, that "You are all rascals. Why you are thinking independently?" Huh? "Why I am rascal?" "Because you are thinking independently. That is the proof that you are a rascal." Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Īśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhaḥ. And they are thinking independently. Keśavalāl Trivedi: Baddha we have got, and still we are thinking... *Prabhupāda: Baddha*-jīva, every moment he is under the strict laws of nature. Generally they think that.... They speak also. "I think." Do they not say? "I think," as if he is independently thinking. What you can think? Hm? Acyutānanda Mahārāja, why do they say, "I think," "In my opinion"? What is the value of your opinion? Harikeśa: Well, I have a certain amount of experience, and with my intelligence and my mind and my scientific method, I can put all that together and come out with some practical solution which I can work on. *Prabhupāda: That you cannot, because you are not independent. Uru*-damni baddhaḥ. If you are tied hands and legs with strong rope, how you can think of "I shall become free in this way. I shall become free...?" But your hands and legs are tied up, so why do you think foolishly that you shall become free in this way, you shall become free this way? First of all open this, the tightening knot; then you plan that "I shall become..." But there is no such chance. So what is the value of your thinking like that? Harikeśa: Well, relatively speaking, it's better to do... Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. Because you are so rascal, you do not know that "I cannot move even an inch and I am making plan." That is the proof that you are a rascal. Keśavalāl Trivedi: Tena vina tṛṇam api na calati. That is the way. Harikeśa: But why are people in the capital... *Prabhupāda: Therefore we call them all rascals. That is our confirmation of our statement. Mūḍhas, you all rascals, without any exception. Hm? The other day the high*-court judge, he's supposed to be the most intelligent person within this state, high-court judge, and he was talking so many nonsense. Keśavalāl Trivedi: Because he thinks he knows, he does not know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Keśavalāl Trivedi: One who thinks he knows... Prabhupāda: Manyamāna, manyamāna. He is thinking he is very intelligent. Acyutānanda: While he was saying that, I was thinking, "I hope I never have him for a judge." Prabhupāda: You'll find everywhere such. Acyutānanda: Ultimately he was saying, "It is not Kṛṣṇa or this. It is some 'something.' That is the reality." Keśavalāl Trivedi: He was thinking that he was bringing about some synthesization. Acyutānanda: Yes. Keśavalāl Trivedi: And that he was bringing... Prabhupāda: [break] ...with this land also? No. [break] ...this building? Mahāmṣa: I think it is a school, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] He does not know. He does not say that "certainly school." "It may be." Harikeśa: Well, if I'm convinced it's a school, it's a school. I mean, the only thing that really matters is my perception of that thing. Prabhupāda: You learn from him that it is school. Before that, you did not know. Therefore you have to learn. That experience is valuable, when you learn it. Harikeśa: Yes, but the only thing that makes it a school... Prabhupāda: You cannot imagine by seeing a building that it is a school. You cannot imagine that. That is foolishness. Harikeśa: But all the people inside, they are also imagining that it's a school. Prabhupāda: So that is all... Acyutānanda: Just like if there is a pen. If I use it to kill someone, it is a weapon. If I use it to mix something, it is an instrument. If I use it to write with, then it's a pen. So it is not a pen. It is not a weapon. It is my idea that I impose on the object that makes it what it is. Prabhupāda: No. No. Your idea, that is foolishness. But you learn from a teacher that this is pen; this is not a weapon. You have to learn it. If you don't learn it, then you will go on making experiment whether it is pen or it is weapon or it is this or that. Go on. But it will never come to any conclusion. Mahāmṣa: Like giving a child a pen who does not know... Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāmṣa: ...that we have to write with it. He has to be taught that we have to write. Prabhupāda: Everywhere you have to learn from the perfect person. Then his knowledge is perfect. So our proposition is that: learn from Kṛṣṇa and you get perfect knowledge. Keśavalāl Trivedi: That is why he is jagat guru. Harikeśa: We've invented this pen, so we can invent how to use the pen. Prabhupāda: You have not invented. Some experienced more than yourself, he has done. You have been given the pen to use it for that purpose. Acyutānanda: Yes. Whenever some scientist does something, the whole nation of that scientist takes the credit. That is another idea. They say, "We made the pen," or something. Everyone in India takes the credit. *Prabhupāda: That is animalism. Dehātmā*-buddhiḥ. "I belong to some particular body, and he belongs to the same body or same nation. Therefore we become..." Instead of "I," we become "we." Acyutānanda: Recently there was an atomic scientist whose all major education was in America and Europe, and he won a Nobel Prize award... Prabhupāda: That is the tendency everywhere. The Britishers.... You go to the Parliament and Westminster Abbey. They have kept all the statues of Sir Isaac Newton and this Churchill, this.... Mean, they want to show that "It is only our nation who has produced all these intelligent persons." *Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes, yes. From "I*-ness" to "we-ness." *Prabhupāda: [break] This is basis of Gītā. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. Learn from the real person, tattva*-darśinaḥ, who has seen, who has actual experience of the truth. Learn from him. The Gītā never recommends that you imagine and make your theories. Never said. That is the Vedic culture. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsur śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. This is the way. Take lesson from Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's representative. Then you will get experience. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What is the use of imagining? Harikeśa: I mean, after all, all this talk about God was simply there because of man's desire to explain the unknown. He saw a thunderbolt and... *Prabhupāda: It is unknown to the rascal man. It is known to the sober man. (laughter) He should become sober instead of becoming a rascal. That is required. Vidyā*-vinaya-sampanne [Bg. 5.18]. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda: "He knows, who has accepted the ācārya." This is Theosophical Society, I think. Huh? That trademark. Or Rāmakrishna Mission. Acyutānanda: No, Salvation Army. Prabhupāda: Salvation Army, oh. Mahāmṣa: This is also school. Harikeśa: Actually we're the only Salvation Army. Acyutānanda: [break] ...the authority of a authority. We're accepting his authority, but his experience comes from his direct perception, which comes back to... Prabhupāda: We don't take such authorities, who takes experience from others. We take authority who is... Keśavalāl Trivedi: Experienced. *Prabhupāda: Automatically. (sic:) Parāsya bhaktir vividhaiva śruyate svabhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. Svabhāva..., you can.... Just like if you ask me how to do something, if I say, "Yes, you do like this," svabhāvikī. I have got by nature knowledge how to do it perfectly. That is going on. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Kṛṣṇa is dictating that "You do like this." So, you see, everything is coming perfect. From the nim seed a nim tree will come. It is so nicely made by Kṛṣṇa-bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10]*-that it will come nim tree, not mango tree. The chemicals are so combined. You do not know what is there, a small seed, baṭa vṛkṣa. And a huge banyan tree will come out, not other tree. That is knowledge. He has given the whole, I mean to say, operation in a small seed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. There is no mistake. You simply take it and cultivate. You'll get the result. Acyutānanda: So that principle, which makes things grow, the *Īśopaniṣad* says, so 'ham asmi: "I am that principle." Prabhupāda: Hm? Acyutānanda: The *Īśopaniṣad* says in the ultimate śloka, so 'ham asmi: "I am that." Prabhupāda: Asmi means "It is my energy. It is my energy." Acyutānanda: No, it says... Prabhupāda: If I say that "I am ISKCON," what is the wrong there? Because I have created this; *therefore I say, "ISKCON means I. I am ISKCON." So what is the wrong there? It is like that. By energy of Kṛṣṇa, everything has come out. Therefore says, "I am this, I am this, I am this, I am this." Vibhūti*-bhinnam. Because everything.... Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Everything has come from Kṛṣṇa. Acyutānanda: No, the *Īśopaniṣad* says that you are that principle. *Īśopaniṣad* says the principle which is lighting the sun... Prabhupāda: Yes, a devotee accepts.... That we accept. Acyutānanda: ...that "I am that principle. The being that is lighting the sun, I am that." Prabhupāda: I do not follow you. Acyutānanda: So 'ham asmi. That sixteenth... Harikeśa: "Like unto the sun, as am I." *Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes, so 'ham asmi*-because I am part and parcel. Acyutānanda: No, but it says "I am that, " not that "I am part of that." Prabhupāda: No. Acyutānanda: "I am that." "Like unto..." Prabhupāda: If it is said, it can be accepted, because I am qualitatively the same. Keśavalāl Trivedi: Quantity, much difference. Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: No, but the direct statement... Prabhupāda: I am.... If I say, "I am Indian," what is the wrong there, if I say, "I am Indian"? Acyutānanda: That is something else. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not something else. Acyutānanda: But to directly accept the śruti, it says you are that same principle. *Prabhupāda: And therefore you have to learn from the guru. And if you directly take, then you remain a fool. Therefore you require a guru. That is the instruction of śruti. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You have to learn śruti. You have to come to a guru. Acyutānanda: No, but this is after that. The ultimate conclusion of that Upaniṣad, śruti, the authority, is that you are that same principle. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am the same principle. Nityo nityānām. Acyutānanda: Well, nothing can be more eternal than another eternal. Prabhupāda: Everyone is eternal. Acyutānanda: It is contradictory then. Nityo nityanānāṁ. You cannot say that one thing is more eternal than another thing. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not the point. Everyone is eternal. Acyutānanda: So how can one be more eternal than... Prabhupāda: As God is eternal, so you are also eternal. Acyutānanda: Then why the distinction...? Prabhupāda: But because you have accepted this material body, you are foolishly thinking that you are not eternal. Otherwise, as God is eternal, you are also eternal. Acyutānanda: Then why should one be distinguished from another if they are both eternal? *Prabhupāda: Just like the sun distinguished from the sunshine, but qualitatively heat and light is there. But because sunshine is there, you cannot say sun is there. That you cannot say. Mat*-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ [Bg. 9.4]. Clearly said. Keśavalāl Trivedi: I think, Swamijī, you explained this, and I could draw rationality from it, that "I am īśa, but not I am sarveśa. I am ātman but not Paramātman." Prabhupāda: Yes. Keśavalāl Trivedi: "I am aṁśa but not Paramāṁśa." Prabhupāda: That is explained in other.... You have to take reference. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. I am also īśvaraḥ. That I explained so many times. But that does not mean I am paramesvara. Paramesvara is Kṛṣṇa. What is this building? Hm? Acyutānanda: This is more of that Christian... Prabhupāda: Huh? Acyutānanda: Same seal as the Christian... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about that? Acyutānanda: This is a mosque. *Keśavalāl Trivedi: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi I was not able to explain till I heard Swamijī on the first day at Rajeswara in Mandapur.(?) That fits in. Otherwise Māyāvādīns, "All right, but Śaṅkarācārya saying, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Why you say no?" Because so many persons ask me question. And when I was confronted, I was not able to say that. But the way the mukti was defined, mukti, yes, and in the lecture, and īṣa, sarveśa, all those things-ātmā, Paramātmā, aṁśa, Paramāṁśa*-there I found that it can be explained. Because so many persons, they ask in public meeting like Lions Club, where we take up these topics. Then we feel at our wit's end. But now I think I can explain them. Prabhupāda: So that day my explanation was all right? Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes, that is how I feel. And that is what will apply also to Acyutānanda Swami's question also, I think. Acyutānanda: No, I'm just fencing. Keśavalāl Trivedi: No, no, that's all.... I know. *Acyutānanda: So Durga is higher than Viṣṇu because Viṣṇu required Durga to awaken Him from the yoga*-nidrā to kill Madhu and Kaitabha. So she controls Him. Prabhupāda: Yes, if I ask my servant that "You ask me to get up at seven o'clock," that does not mean.... (laughter) *Keśavalāl Trivedi: No, some of these things we could not follow. As a matter of Madhu*-Kaitabha-vadha, I have read it several times.... (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 3, 1976, Nellore Prabhupāda: These things are not available in the Western countries. They do not know all these. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that there has ever been a personality who has ever given such a great gift to the Western world as yourself, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, actually that is the fact, but let them appreciate, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gradually I think they all will. Some are now... Prabhupāda: No, they are intelligent. First... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The thing is, it seems to me, that we are flooding so many books that they must become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Yes, they have no alternative than to read these books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Practically now it is commonplace that every day when our men go out, supposing each man meets in a day a thousand people or five hundred people, always, without a doubt, at least one or two of the people he's met, they already have another book, and they are taking a second or third book. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many of them have two or three volumes of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta or Bhāgavatam. And although they may not read it, their children are reading it. Prabhupāda: Somebody is reading. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. I made a study. I asked the men in our party, when they were all gathered, to raise their hand if they had received a book before joining our party, and every single one of them had gotten a book before joining the movement*-without exception. They were attracted through reading a book or a magazine. Prabhupāda: I talked with that police officer. He has published. In Chicago. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Crime: What to do?" Harikeśa: "Why and what to do?" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Why and what to do?" Prabhupāda: Every paper, there are so many papers. Education so much advanced, and everyone is a criminal. Hmm. Have saṅkīrtana, then lecture. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You chant? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa only. [break] That is foolishness. Why our men does not become ready before four o'clock and have maṅgala ārati and kīrtana? If our habits are not changed, then what is the use of spending so much money? [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In no way can anyone say that they're independent. There is no possibility. At every moment one is dependent. And if anyone says they aren't, they are simply foolish rascals. We have to challenge everyone in the world on this point, "You cannot be independent." He is pointing out, saying that even in politics, the politicians like Indira think that they are independent, and Prabhupāda was saying that Munshibhai Raman, he fought so hard for his country's independence, Bangladesh. But in one hour, when the soldiers came, they killed him and every single family member, not sparing anyone. But he thought he was independent. He thought his country had become independent. But in one hour it was all wiped away. Prabhupāda: So where is your independence? What is the answer? At any moment you have to die. Even Munshibhai Raman or Mussolini or big, big, so..., Napoleon. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Franco. There was that Franco. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. He was given horse urine to drink, Napoleon. Such a great hero, but he had to drink horse urine. This Englishman after Battle of, what is that? Waterloo. When he was arrested, when he was asking water, he was given horse urine. Because everyone was very, very angry. Napoleon became just like Hiranyakasipu. They were threatening their children: "Oh, he, Bona, is coming. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep." He became so much.... He was known as Bona. You do not know all these things? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whole Europe became threatened, Napoleon. And there must be some reaction. And when he was under custody he was treated like an.... So where is independence? He had to drink horse urine as reaction of his atrocities. Hitler committed suicide and finished himself. Mussolini was forced to be killed. Gandhi was killed. And they are fighting for independence. You know this Sydney? Sydney? You know why the city is known as Sydney? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Sir Philip Sydney, a great commander, during the fighting time, when he was shot, he asked for water, and the water was not supplied and he died. Now, he was very generous man. He was the commander. Water was brought, and at the same time another soldier was being carried. He was also going to die. He was looking for the water. So immediately he said, "This water give him. Give him," and he died. He was very generous. He knew that "I am going to die. If he can be saved, give him this water." So that Sydney, Sir Philip Sydney, his name. Melbourne, it is also named after great soldier. So where is your independence? If you are thinking independently and doing things independently, then is it not foolishness? Hm? Why don't you answer? You don't want to be foolish? Suppose within the prison walls, if you want to do things independently, is it possible? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you're always dependent. Prabhupāda: You'll be put into further sufferings as soon as you violate the rules and regulation of the jail. You'll be put to a further term of suffering. Just like they are independently trying to avoid pregnancy, and the same man who has killed his own child, or same mother, he is being killed within the womb. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. Nature will not tolerate this. In India still these things are not happening because they are not so advanced to use all these contraceptive method. But in Europe, America, it has become a common affair to kill the child within the womb. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is starting here also. *Prabhupāda: Yes, gradually. As soon as you kill, then you must be killed. This law is there: life for life. So where is your independence? Independence means you are inviting more sufferings, that's all. You go on, declare your independence. We are the only sane man. We have accepted that "We have no independence." Here Kṛṣṇa is asking. "Let me surrender unto..." That's all. So we have to convince the people, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. You are foolishly rascal. You are trying to be independent. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. You do that." That will make him happy. In many varieties of ways we have to convince them and prove that "You are foolishly thinking that there is independent, so*-called scientific advancement, and only promising, 'Yes, in future we shall be like this, be like this.' " What is future? Just take account of your present position. Where is the history that you have...? If in the past something like that happened, then you can expect future. But in the past, the whole world history, there was no independence. [break] ...clearly says, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate: [Bg. 3.27] "These rascals, out of false ego, and vidmūḍha, foolishly declaring that 'I am the doer of everything. I can do everything independently.' " Kartāham iti manyate. Manyate means "falsely think." Actually, he is nothing but a small particle. This egotism is the root cause of suffering. Discuss all these things amongst yourselves and preach and inform these rascals, so-called civilized scientists and philosopher. That is preaching. We have to present the truth in such a way that they will be convinced, "Yes." Within fifteen minutes the plane in Arabia, fifty-three men fell. Within fifteen.... It takes fifteen minutes to die. That's all. Where is your independence? You have invented so many nice machine, but when there is order from superior, "You nonsense, your machine.... You die immediately," what you can do? So why don't you accept there is superior? Hm? Why do they not accept? What is the reasoning? You cannot say? Harikeśa: Vimūḍhātmā. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That accept. If he accepts that he's vimūḍha, then it is an advance. Just like a dog is barking, "Yow, yow, yow, yow!" You just run towards him with a stick, he'll immediately go away and stop. Because he is dog, he is thinking, "I am independent. I can bark like this." And as soon as.... Simply one stick*-finish his independence. You'll find psychologically, however a big dog he may be, if you just run towards him with a stick, he'll go.... (laughs) He knows that "When this man will strike me with the stick, I cannot do anything." He knows it very well. Sometimes falsely if you touch the ground, he will go away. Everyone is thinking independently. He is forming a party, "revolution," "ism," and so many things. All of them are foolish rascals. They do not see the history. Stronger men than ourselves, Napoleon, Hitler, this man, that man, Gandhi-everyone is finished. So where is.... What is the value of my planning again? [break] There are many gods? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm? Prabhupāda: Vivekananda. He is follower of Vivekananda. [break] ...Vivekananda's house was made, say, eighty years before. So what is the use of this house? It is standing and it is covered with matches.... What is called? Straw? What is called? Harikeśa: Lines.(?) Prabhupāda: No, no. Dorma, we say dorma. The bamboo cut into slice and open... Harikeśa: Citar. Citar. Prabhupāda: Citar? Harikeśa: Like the roof in the other place in Madras. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is English? Citar it is called? Harikeśa: No, Hindi. Prabhupāda: English, what is the English? They do not use it. Hariśauri: A straw roof, they call that thatching. Thatch. Prabhupāda: Thatching, yes. That is right. So the windows are thatched. So where is the production? Vivekananda is standing as preacher. So where is the preachers? People should have gone there in hundreds; *there should have been some program. So where is the program? Simply "Vivekananda house." Lick up the house. [break] ...rows of statues on the beach, many statues*-for passing stool by the crows. I have seen in Calcutta one statue of Sir Asutosh Mukherjee. So in the morning, on the day of the birth anniversary, in the morning the municipal sweepers with their brush, they will rub it to cleanse the solidly stuck-up crow's stool with water. It will be done for three, four hours. Then in the evening, big, big men will come, gather, and offer him garland one after another, just like they were offering me. In this way the meeting will be held. In the morning it is brushed with the sweeper's street brush, and in the evening it is offered garland. I have seen it. Here also I see that she has kept Kṛṣṇa's mūrti outside. It is aparādha. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not kṛṣṇa*-bhaktas, these people, at all. Hariśauri: Even that tulasī tree around the corner, they have clipped to shape it, cut all the branches. Prabhupāda: They have no guidance. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last night when we were reading, they all left, especially on that point of following the regulative principles: no meat, crabs, fish, eggs. They all got up and walked out. Prabhupāda: You said that the same cooking place will have to do, where they are cooking meat? Harikeśa: They're not cooking it now. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: They're not doing that now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...is not planning. When he comes here he is determined that he will not eat in anyone's home. Prabhupāda: That is very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not only that, but he's not going to sleep in anyone's home either. They want to camp out by the riversides. Prabhupāda: Very good idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that he finds it very.... From reading your books it is very clear that Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very careful and strict to only eat prasādam cooked by proper persons. Prabhupāda: No, purchase from Jagannātha temple. People would come to offer Him prasādam, so what is the cost of the prasādam, that was taken, and He purchased. Formerly, the system was, there was no hotel, but there were temples. You go and you can purchase very cheap price. I went with my father in my childhood in a place. My father would never take food at anyone's house or in the hotel. He will find out some temple and pay them and take prasādam. Still there are many temples. So I was about ten years old at that time, say, seventy years ago. So he paid two annas to the pūjārī and he gave us so much. It can be eaten by five, six men. Kicheri, vegetables, varieties. So much. Two annas. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a nice temple in Nabadwip that does that, the Govinda temple in Nabadwip. When I was going to purchase the land in māyāpura, the Mr. Das, the lawyer, and I, we would take our meals at this temple. Every day he would purchase. He would give a little. Prabhupāda: Yes, still there are. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had arrangement like this. At least a hundred people were taking, respectable people. Prabhupāda: Acchā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a very big temple, that temple. Of course, I don't know how bona fide the persons who speak at night are, but every night there are speakers, and many people coming. It's a very good temple. I was very impressed by it. Nice rooms for people to stay upstairs, very active, always being cleansed by people. Prabhupāda: That is temple. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And first*-class prasādam. Prabhupāda: So we have got so many examples. Introduce this. (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 4, 1976, Nellore Indian man: ...mission, and they only think that... Prabhupāda: So we shall return now? Indian man: [break] ...my weekly visits, that Jyoti Swami showed me that incident at Japan(?), and he asked me, "Have you seen...?" *Prabhupāda: Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. Makṣikā bhramarā icchanti...(?) Maksikā, these ordinary flies, they find out where is sore, and the bhramarā, he finds out where is honey. Similarly, doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. And the Bhaktivedanta Swami is doing preaching all over the world*-that has not come to his eyes. He has come to the Japanese incident. He has come. Indian man: Yes, I told him there might be some, in a big organization, such a... Prabhupāda: No, why did you not say, "You are such a pamara that this thing has come to your notice and not other thing"? Indian man: That I told him. For that he began to say, "No, no, you read my literature. You'll be.... We don't have any envy." I took that also with me, and he gave me.... Next time, when I went, after reading, I said, "How many mistakes are there? Not even a single dot is mistake in other literature, and still you say this literature? And what is new therein? Nothing new." *Prabhupāda: Just try to understand that whatever it may be, what is the mentality of these rascals, that "The good things do not come to your notice." If something is bad, "Oh, here is..." You see. Pāmarāḥ doṣam icchanti guṇam icchanti paṇḍitāḥ. Saj-janā guṇam icchanti doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. That means they are not even a Vaiṣṇava. You see? Vaiṣṇava means paramo nirmatsarāṇām [SB 1.1.2]. Even one has got some fault, a Vaiṣṇava does not see that. He takes the good qualities. But they are not even Vaiṣṇava. Yes. Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. The mission of Gau..., Caitanya Mahāprabhu, is being preaching all over the.... That does not come to their.... Some Japanese paper has written something*-it has come immediately. Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. That fool, that he's a.... Here is a pāmara, and he's a lowest of the mankind. You can say that "Why this thing has come prominent to your eyes and not the other thing?" Indian man: No, I did say in my own way, though I did not quote this, that "You are a pāmara." I said, "Why..." Prabhupāda: Yes, you can say now, that "That day I forgot to say that you are a pāmara. So I have come to say that you are a pāmara." (laughter) "I forgot it. Excuse me, I forgot it. So you are pāmara." Indian man: And it is so. As a matter of fact, it is so. And for that, the apology is, "No, no, I do realize that lot of work is being done about that." Prabhupāda: "But because I am pāmara, I am finding out this fault." But you have now completed the sentence. "You know lot of things, but because you are pāmara, therefore this thing has come prominent." Indian man: That is the proviso. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the proof that you are a pāmara. *Indian man: In my own way, if they challenge us and they are convincing, because to the audience it has to be said. One gosvāmī, when I said, "Well, this is a movement which I very much like, and like also to join," then he said that-because I am conducting Gītā Bhavan(?) founded by him*-he said, "No, no, no, no. We as a matter of fact champion that cause. But afterwards, when we realized that it is not sampradayic, we have given it up. Therefore..." Then his conduct.... The next day itself, he was not liking me. I have been doing this propaganda, this Gītā pravacanam, for the past four years in the organization founded by him. But the very next day, that gosvāmī, Puruṣottama Gosvāmī of Vṛndāvana... Yaśodānandana: The envious one. Prabhupāda: He has got a camp here? Yaśodānandana: No, in Madras. Indian man: When he was here it happened. And that devotee's grace.... Then I said, "What is the reason why you say?" "No, no. After all, we are qualified. Those mlecchas..." Prabhupāda: Nobody cares for you. You are so qualified that nobody cares for you. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did he say? Yaśodānandana: What did he say about mlecchas? Indian man: Yes, "Why mlecchas, how can they have, after all?" I said, "You yourself were a married person, and..." *Prabhupāda: And you did not know that they are not.... If they are mlecchas, then you are nārakī. It is said, vaiṣṇave jāti*-buddhiḥ nārakī. Yes. Ārcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ nārakī. Anyone who considers in terms of caste a Vaiṣṇava, he's a nārakī. Nārakī. Now, just like we go to the temple to see the Deities. Many millions of people are coming, but everyone knows that this is made of stone. But they are going to see the stone? Indian man: There is God in it. *Prabhupāda: Huh? They are going to see the stone? So arcye viṣṇau śilā*-dhiḥ. Anyone who thinks like that.... Similarly, everyone knows that he is European, he is American, but because he is Vaiṣṇava, one should not see like that, "mleccha." If he sees, then he's nārakī. *Yaśodānandana: It also proves that they have no faith in the holy name, because the hari*-nāma purifies everything. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: (aside:) Did that swami show that article to Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Yaj*-jihvāgre nāma tubhyām (sic). Aho bata svapa. Hariśauri: (aside:) Did he? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Mahārāja, did you show that article to...? *Prabhupāda: Why do you speak in the middle? You should hear. Yaj*-jihvāgre nāma tubham, yan-nāma śruti-mātrena pumān bhavati nirmalaḥ. And this rascals says the nāma has no.... See. We have to meet simply rascals all over. The so-called religionists, so-called swamis, so-called yogis, so-called politicians. You see? Simply we have to meet with all rascals. Indian man: No, he was reminding me of this Jyoti Mahārāja showing that article on Kṛṣṇa Jayantī day to the reading out to the entire audience. That was a rubbish. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, read to the whole audience. Prabhupāda: He was reading? Indian man: Ah, that is what he reminds me, because I said the incident which I had with him.... On Kṛṣṇa Jayantī day I did not go there. But on that day it was being read out. That was the silly part of it. Yaśodānandana: So Prabhupāda, these same people that... Prabhupāda: So what is the wrong there? What was the wrong? Indian man: No, he said that "This movement has got these black sheep, and they have been banned in Japan. Everywhere they will be banned." Prabhupāda: But there is something in Japan which is banned. But what you have got in Japan? Indian man: Nothing. Yaśodānandana: First of all, we are not even banned in Japan. The center is still there. Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. Banned means we had something. But what proof you have got that you have done something in Japan? Indian man: There is something; there is nothing. Prabhupāda: So it is better. Just like one man said that "I have lost fifty thousand this year." His friend said, "You are still fortunate, because you had fifty thousand. But I have no fifty paisa even." Indian man: So there is something. Here nothing. Prabhupāda: "So you are so fortunate that you could suffer the loss of fifty thousand, but I have nothing to lose." Indian man: But that is for a discriminating man. Here it is an ignorance, asuya, envy. When Acyutānanda Swami was addressing one man (he) said, "Why always have Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa? We can have Hare Christ also." Same answer as Your Holiness gave, he said, "Yes, yes, you can have it. Whoever says.... We don't say no. It is also possible, but degree, matter of degree," as Your Holiness the other day put it. And some chapters and words were read out to the people. They were convinced that same saṅkīrtana is also sanctioned in the Bible. Prabhupāda: We have to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu or you? Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. So we have to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu. What is this building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a tuberculosis hospital. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, they said that if Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Western countries, why didn't He go there Himself? That's what they told us. Prabhupāda: So He left the credit for me. (laughter) Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! Prabhupāda: He loves His devotee more than Himself. Harikesa: Why didn't Kṛṣṇa kill everybody at the Battle of Kurukṣetra? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yasodanandana: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, by His simple desire He could kill. (laughter) He said therefore, bhaviṣyatvam, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, sarvatra pracāra haibe. He is leaving the task for somebody else. *Indian man: [break] ...Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, all these things, Swamijī has brought out very vividly. I have read only introduction and some portion only. But what Caitanya Mahāprabhu had ordered, ordained, is taking place. It is very vividly brought out. [break] ...behind using the machinery, cars, airplanes, other things also, I think very convincing, Swamiji, when you say that they are meant only for Kṛṣṇa's service, and if it is dedicated for that, it is used. Otherwise it is misused, abused. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is bhakti. Just like you are walking, some money falls down from your pocket. Then you forgot. And somebody, "Oh, here is some money"; he takes it. And somebody takes it but offers to you. Who is the better man? Indian man: The person offering. Prabhupāda: Yes. That who takes it and puts in the pocket, he is a thief. And who takes it and offers to you, he is sincere friend. So we can use everything only for Kṛṣṇa. And therefore we are friend to Kṛṣṇa. And you are thief. Kṛṣṇa's property you are using unauthorizedly. Therefore you are a thief. Devotee (3): [break] The Christians say that God has given us certain things to enjoy. Just like I was talking to one Christian about eating meat, and he said, "Well, I enjoy eating meat." Prabhupāda: So, the tiger will say he will enjoy you. Why do you protest against the tiger? Acyutānanda: In the Bible it says that everything was for the enjoyment of man. Man is sovereign over the animals. Prabhupāda: Enjoyment does not mean that you kill him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Enjoy means protection. It means protecting, not eating. *Prabhupāda: Go*-rakṣya. You protect the cows and take the best food in the world, milk. That is enjoyment. Not foolishly to eat the cow. *Indian man: I am reminded, Swamijī, of one day, the tussle between two Muslims. One happened to be a high*-court judge and another Fossil(?), he was always propagating that there should not be animal killed for human purposes and all those things. So on one platform I was the organizer. This high-court judge had been invited, and he began to say animal kingdom is meant for exploitation by human being. And this man flared up: "Where do you get in Koran? You are talking some nonsense, though you are high-court judge." It was a problem for me how to manage this high-court judge, presiding high-court judge, and this man who was a public man. Then he convinced that "Don't say all these things. Where are the passages? In Arabia this eating of goat was a necessity then. That is how it was. Otherwise human beings cannot exploit. You withdraw. Otherwise I will make this meeting a pandemonium." That is how he did it, and he succeeded. (laughter) He succeeded, very same. That Fossil, he succeeded. And this idiot who was appointed by Rajajiv, high-court judge, he could not convince. I said, "Why do you talk about controversial subjects when you do not know?" But he was a presiding judge. He thought, "Whatever I talk is sense." That chief justice asked me, "How have I spoken?" So he wanted certificate from me afterwards. I said that "If that incarnation of (indistinct), if you should have left, that would have been better. You did very well with regard to your experiences about this movement and the..., at Chicago and all those, but you dabbled with thinking that this is something original." Yaśodānandana: All of those speakers are very eager to give credit to Vivekananda, but he has not done anything. Prabhupāda has done the most. They cannot see properly, all these speakers. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one knows Vivekananda in America. Indian man: Acchā? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one has ever heard his name. *Prabhupāda: No, it is not that no one has heard, but they are working for the last eighty*-five years. What they have done? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They only have about four or five temples, centers in America. There is no Deity established in the temples, only some big... Prabhupāda: Now recently they have established one temple of Rāmakrishna in Vṛndāvana. Nobody goes there. Nobody goes there. Yaśodānandana: It is simply a hospital. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the Deity? *Indian man: They have taken up social work, isn't it? Everybody. Swamijī, I am now reminded. A few weeks back I was invited to Raj Bhavan. I went as an invitee of an invitee. And that Madhuben Shah(?) began to wax eloquent because he happened to be the president of the world union. And they said, "Oh, we want to integrate the entire world, and the emotion and gradation, all those things." And they invited the views of Aryans, of twenty*-five persons. All spoke. I did not speak. I kept quiet. Somebody said, "Here is a person who really knows." I said, "I am sick of this talk.... [break] And why should we have another organization for the same purpose?" Then I said, "But anyhow, I don't know. If Kṛṣṇa..." Nowadays I use that... Prabhupāda: [break] There is Theosophical Society? Yaśodānandana: Yes, all over the world, international. Prabhupāda: [break] ...started from here? Indian man: It was started. Madras center and there in America. Prabhupāda: [break] ...come from the other side. [break] ...registering this association, some friend suggested, "Why don't you make it 'God consciousness'?" And "No, 'Kṛṣṇa conscious.' If I bring God consciousness, they will bring so many gods." Indian man: And another question reply was also very convin..., that all other are gods, but He is Godhead. That is very clinching expla.... Some of these things are really direct replies. Prabhupāda: And actually that is fact. Indian man: This was.... Even Acyutānanda said the other day. Somebody asked us that question, "Why not 'God conscious'? Why do you want 'Kṛṣṇa'?" He also said the same thing. [break] "What is the difference between thieving the butter and other things by Lord Kṛṣṇa and thieving by us?" I said "The thieving is thieving." I said, "How can there be theft of..." [break] Prabhupāda: And if you steal, you will be beaten with shoes. Indian man: We are beaten with shoes, but He is allowed. Prabhupāda: Not only allowed, but He is worshiped: "Sir, it is very kind of You that You have stolen." Indian man: That is what.... In forensic language it is called abet, abetted. The very owner abets, "It is kind of you to have committed theft of this." (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 6, 1976, Nellore *Acyutānanda: It is called Mahāprabhu sādhana. It is on record that that is the house where Caitanya Mahaprabhu spent catur*-masya. [break] Yes, he arranged to have these programs for us. There were almost ten thousand people there. Prabhupāda: There is good potency in South India. Acyutānanda: Oh, yes, it is very promising. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Jaya. Mahāmṣa: He is secretary of our committee here and president of the Rotary Club in Nelore. Prabhupāda: So your arrangement was very nice. Thank you. Hm. Where is that wrapper? These cottages are very nice. Mahāmṣa: [break] His father is donating for Kṛṣṇa's Deity. Prabhupāda: Oh. And who is donating for the temple? Mahāmṣa: They will.... We will comment. I will comment. Harikeśa: Is there a path that goes down there? *Acyutānanda: It's shallow. [break] ...that the Vaiṣṇavas say that the gold ring is smaller in quantity than the gold mine, but the only way in this material world.... That is only a material example, because something can be separated from the general mass because there are many different elements. You can tell the difference between a gold ring and a gold mine because there is air and space. But there is ekaṁ brahma dvitīyaṁ nāsti, there is only Brahman, so you cannot say that there is a big Brahman and a part*-and-parcel Brahman. The words "part and parcel" you have only written into the śrutis for your own... Prabhupāda: So that is not your rascal's imagination. It is spoken by the Lord Himself. Mamaivāṁśaḥ. He is not rascal like you, that He will say something which is mistaken. Acyutānanda: No, that is only during His avatāra He says that. Prabhupāda: That's all right. He says like that; *we have to accept it. Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Acyutānanda: In the lower stage. Prabhupāda: Lower stage not.... That is.... You are in the lower stage. You cannot understand. But what He says, that is right. Mamaivāṁśaḥ, sanātana, "eternally amara." It is not that made aṁśa at the present time. Sanātana. From.... From the very beginning. Acyutānanda: Then it is contradictory. *Prabhupāda: No contradictory. It is not contradictory. He says, mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7], that "These jīvas, they are eternally My aṁśa." It is not that because now in the material world it has become fragmented. Acyutānanda: How can there be any truth outside the Lord? Prabhupāda: Huh? Acyutānanda: How can there be any truth separate from the Lord, like a gold ring separate from the mine? Prabhupāda: Yes, but whatever the Lord says, that is truth. Not your statement is truth. Acyutānanda: No, just like if I say... Prabhupāda: You cannot say. Acyutānanda: ...you should dress warmly. You should dress warmly now. Prabhupāda: No, no. You cannot say. *Acyutānanda: And then I come in the summer, and you still are dressing warmly*-it's for time and circumstance, only immediately. Prabhupāda: No. That is spiritual fragment, eternally existing. Nityo nityānāṁ cetana... There are always plural number and singular number. Acyutānanda: How can there be any truth separate from the Lord? Eka brahma. Prabhupāda: No, it is not separate. You are thinking separate. Acyutānanda: No, a gold ring is separate from the gold mine. That is your... Prabhupāda: No, no, that is your material conception. But everything is... Acyutānanda: Yes, that is a material example. The example came from you Vaiṣṇavas. We do not make... Prabhupāda: No. Acyutānanda: We go directly from the śruti, ekaṁ brahma dvitīyaṁ nāsti. *Prabhupāda: Then you don't accept Bhagavad*-gītā. Acyutānanda: There cannot be anything in between. *Prabhupāda: Then you don't accept Bhagavad*-gītā. Acyutānanda: We also accept. During avatāra these things may go on, but actually... Yaśodānandana: Ultimately everything will become one. The jīvātmā will become one with the Paramātmā. The Advaitavādī... Prabhupāda: It is already one. That is Viśiṣṭādvaitavāda. Acyutānanda: Yes, but it appears differently. Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: But actually there is no difference. Prabhupāda: No. Acyutānanda: So we are one with God. Prabhupāda: Huh? Acyutānanda: So we are one. *Prabhupāda: Why one? You are one and different, bhedābheda, acintya-bhedābheda-tattva, simultaneously one and different. Just like this. This is one and different. The children have come from the body*-that is one-but still, they are different. Even in the hogs and pigs the acintya-bhedābheda-tattva is there. [break] The word should be nābheda sanātana. Acyutānanda: [break] It is different only during the manifestation of prakṛti, but actually it is not... *Prabhupāda: Just like in Vṛndāvana. They are one, but still, there are trees, there are flowers, there are water, there are calves, there are cows, there are gopīs, but they are all one. Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ [Bs. 5.37]. All of them are ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Nirviśeṣavādīs..., it is not nirviśeṣavāda. Sa-viśeṣa. What is this? [break] Just see, it is already "Hare Kṛṣṇa," known. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Foundation was laid in December '74, but no work has been done since then. Prabhupāda: So why not let us have this land? We can develop. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice land, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right by the lake. *Acyutānanda: It already has our name. If the Bhagavad*-gītā is in the Mahābhārata-that's itihāsa-how did it get the name Upaniṣad, Gītopaniṣad? *Prabhupāda: Because it is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. Itihāsa also Vedic literature. Pañcama*-veda, Mahābhārata, for understanding of the common man. Strī-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnāṁ trayi na śruti-gocarāḥ [SB 1.4.25]. Woman, śūdra, and dvija-bandhu, they cannot understand directly the Vedas. *Acyutānanda: But even Bhisma, when he was on the battlefield, he said, "I have given up my bheda*-jña," so he became one. Prabhupāda: One you are already. Because you are foolish, you cannot understand. That is abheda. I am not different. Just like my finger is not different from me. If the finger thinks, "I am different from the body," that is ignorance. Yaśodānandana: Just as we say that ignorance consists of not understanding the difference between the jīva and the Paramātmā, the Māyāvādīs say that ignorance means to understand the difference between jīva and Paramātmā. Prabhupāda: So then they difference. They admit that there is difference, if they say like that, that "There is difference." Yaśodānandana: But they say that oneness, that is the real knowledge. Prabhupāda: No, no. That's all right. But why they say "different"? Yaśodānandana: They say to see that our vision of difference, that our vision of difference, that is ignorance. When we understand the jīvātmā to be different from God, from Bhagavān, that is ignorance. Prabhupāda: No. No. Yaśodānandana: That your vision of seeing God... Prabhupāda: Yes. So we admit that, that when we see that "I am separate from..." Then the same example: If the finger thinks that it is separate from the body, that is ignorance, because the finger is required by the body to serve the body. So if he thinks, "No, I'll not serve you because I am different," that is ignorance. That is ignorance. That is going on. These Māyāvādīs, they refuse to serve God. That is ignorance. If they are part and parcel of God or one with God, how you can refuse to serve? That is ignorant. Here the finger is my part and parcel of the body. It cannot refuse to serve. I say; *immediately it comes. So if the finger thinks that "I am one. Why shall I serve the whole body?" that is ignorance. Cetana. Cetana means activity. So if I am one with God, then my activities should be simultaneously with God. That is oneness. I don't disagree. God says, "You do it." I disagree. God says, "You surrender unto Me," but I refuse. That is ignorance. If I am actually one with God, just I am asking, "You do this"*-you do immediately. But if you do not do it, that is ignorance. Gurur avajñā. Then he becomes aparādhī. Similarly, oneness means no disagreement. That is oneness, cetana. Cetana means I can disagree or agree. Two things are there. That is cetana. So cetana, cetanaś cetanānaṁ. So when God says that "You do it," you must do it. That is agreement. That is oneness. If you refuse, that is ignorance. How can you refuse? Suppose you.... Take the whole family, and the head of the families asks somebody to do something. If he refuses, then that is rebellious condition. In the state the citizen must agree with the government. Cetana. Cetana means he has got both the things. If he likes, he can agree; if he likes, he does not agree. Vasughoṣa: So their big word is that you merge and you become that. So how... Prabhupāda: That is merging. They do not know what is merging. Merging means "I, so long I was disagreeing; now I agree to abide by Your..." That is merging. Just like several states they merge into one. So they agree to work unitedly. That is merging. Merging does not mean that you have got your discretion and that is finished. That is not merging. Then your cetana is lost. How it can be lost? Mahāmṣa: What about the analogy that many rivers flow into the same sea and lose their individuality? Prabhupāda: Hm? Mahāmṣa: Their example is that many rivers, they flow into one sea, and then they lose their individuality. *Prabhupāda: Because they are short*-sighted, blind, that there are many individual living entities within the river. But they are blind. They cannot see them. Because it is covered by water they see only the water is there. Because they are blind rascals, they cannot see. But if they go deep into the water they will see there are so many individuals, millions, and they are living in the same river. Harikeśa: But there's no difference between the individual living entity and the total... *Prabhupāda: Yes, there is no difference. Still, that is.... That is acintya*-bheda... That is individuality and no individuality. So long they are living there within the river, there is no individuality. Acyutānanda: That example is also a jugglery of words because the.... Let's say the Mississippi River is the quantity of water that's on the land. When it goes into the ocean you don't say that "Now the Mississippi River is in the ocean." Mississippi River is still individual, and the ocean is another thing. Prabhupāda: The Mississippi is not finished. Mahāmṣa: And the water molecules... Prabhupāda: And not only that, the water is again taken away and it is thrown into the Mississippi. So these rascals who think that "We have now merged. We are now liberated," that is rascaldom. They will be taken away and thrown again. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa... No, this is fact. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. They cannot stay. They will be taken away by the nature's law, converted into cloud and thrown away, again come, again come. They are thrown away. They cannot stay. And again they become water and come through. That is going on, coming and going. So their merging is not fact. *Yaśodānandana: Vimukta*-māninaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Yes, vimukta*-māninaḥ, yes. Mahāmṣa: [break] ...oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padam. That claims Viṣṇu as the Supreme, but where does it say that Viṣṇu..., I mean Kṛṣṇa, is the source of Viṣṇu from the śrutis? Prabhupāda: Śruti... Brahmā said, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. *Acyutānanda: Brahma*-saṁhitā is śruti. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmā spoke śruti, *Vedas*, so whatever he speaks is śruti. It is therefore called saṁhitā. Saṁhitā means *Vedas*, śruti. As soon as it is called saṁhitā, that is *Vedas*. Acyutānanda: [break] ...comprises the examination for bhaktivedanta and bhakti-śāstrī? Prabhupāda: Hm? Acyutānanda: There was talk that they would be given examinations. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Acyutānanda: What is the syllabus for...? *Prabhupāda: Whatever books we have got, it should be studied. Bhakti-śāstrī means Nectar of Devotion, Bhagavad-gītā, Nectar of Instruction, Beyond Death*-in this way we select some ten books. That is bhakti-śāstrī. Acyutānanda: So when will that... *Prabhupāda: Then we come to Bhāgavata, then we come to Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, in this way. So from next year, unless one passes bhakti-śāstrī, he cannot be second initiated. First initiation is open for everyone. "Come on. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That will purify him. Then let him understand what is bhakti. Yaśodānandana: This is very good, because then those that will become second..., those that will have second initiation will have to know the scriptures, will have to know your books. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is.... Now there is... *Mahāmṣa: And unless they know your books, they will never be fixed*-up devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: Many times people give second initiation because they need a pūjārī in the temple. Prabhupāda: No. Acyutānanda: So they give. *Mahāmṣa: [break] ...different Purāṇas have different Gītās, Prabhupāda? So some person said that there is a Gaṇeśa*-gītā. Similarly, there are different demigods. They speak their gītā. And they also say... Acyutānanda: Universal form. Mahāmṣa: They show the universal form or they say that they are paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma [Bg. 10.12]. They say the same things in their gitas. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let them do that. We take Bhagavad*-gītā. That's all. Śaṅkarācārya also-bhagavad-gītā kiñcid adhītā. If Bhagavad-gītā is understood a little only, he becomes liberated. *Acyutānanda: Then why should it be called the Bhagavad*-gītā and not the Kṛṣṇa-gītā. Kṛṣṇa is referred to as Bhagavān. *Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhagavad*-gītā, not Bhāgavata-gita. Acyutānanda: No, Bhagavata, because He is.... The others are not Bhagavata. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Bhagavān, that I explained so many times. Bhagavān everyone, little possessing opulence. Acyutānanda: But these other Gītās are named after the demigod. Prabhupāda: That's all right. He can be called bhagavān. He is not ordinary man. He can be called. But the real Bhaga.... Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. That is the.... The real Bhagavān is here, but these demigods, they have got little opulences, not equal to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are sometimes called Bhagavān. *Acyutānanda: But their Gītās are not called Bhagavad*-gītā; they are called by their... Mahāmṣa: But do they have the potency to show the universal form? Prabhupāda: Who? Mahāmṣa: These demigods? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that universal form? It is nothing. Any powerful living being can do that. *Yaśodānandana: In the other Vaiṣṇava*-sampradāyas, such as the Madhva-sampradāya and the Rāmānuja-sampradāya, they do not understand that Kṛṣṇa has His own planet, Goloka Vṛndāvana. They think that there is only Vaikuṇṭha and nothing else. *Prabhupāda: Their knowledge is imperfect. In the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is said, goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya [Bs. 5.43]. *Yaśodānandana: That is why when Caitanya Mahāprabhu came back to Purī, He said, "I have met many Rāmānujas, many Mādhvas, many Buddhists, but I like Rāmānanda Rāya very much because he has this knowledge of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa." *Acyutānanda: In South India there are very few Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa devotees. And what they have is from some Purāṇas, the marriage of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. They perform Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa kalyana, marriage. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that bona fide, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Acyutānanda: In the Brahma-vaivarta... So a court case appeared. One man had some property in the name of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities. So the court said, "You only have the quota for one family." So he argued that Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa are not married; They are two separate families, so They should have double quota of land. So he won the case on that. But if somebody came from the south, he said, "No, They can be married also," he would have lost. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think, Prabhupāda, there is..., you wrote... *Acyutānanda: Brahma*-vaivarta Purāṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...there's a ceremony where Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa are, I think, married. *Acyutānanda: Brahma*-vaivarta Purāṇa I heard, that They were married by Brahmā in secret. Prabhupāda: [break] ...lands are being distributed. Acyutānanda: To the bhaṅgīs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Distributed? Prabhupāda: These lands are being distributed? Indian man: Distributed to the poor people. All these lands. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Legally they are being distributed? Indian man: Yes, legally, by government. Prabhupāda: [break] ...there any question last night? No. *Acyutānanda: No, nobody put last night. [break] ...majority is English*-speaking audience, then questions and answers flow smoothly. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...a latrine arranged yesterday, but... Acyutānanda: [break] ...continuing for very long. What is the problem there? Indian man: [break] ...is there are social act which this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement has taken? Prabhupāda: What is the best social activity? Our is the best... Indian man: Serving the poor and the natives... Prabhupāda: Everyone is poor. Who is rich? First of all find out. Who is rich? Indian man: Rich in the sense, luxurious living... Prabhupāda: He is not living very luxuriously, that he has no disease, he does not become old. Does not become? Indian man: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Then where is richness? Indian man: Somebody questioned me yesterday. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: "There are so many things. Doing any social activities?" *Prabhupāda: These things are being done by so many other people, and we are doing something which is ultimate. The hospital gives some medicine when there is some disease, but that does not mean there will be no disease. Can they guarantee that "I give you this medicine*-no more disease." We are giving that medicine, that no more disease. That is the best social work. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. We are giving this medicine, that after leaving this body.... So far this body is concerned, somehow or other you pass on. And as soon as you give up this body-tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]-you'll have no more birth. And if you have no more birth, there will be no more death. And if you have no more birth, then there will be no more disease. This is our prescription. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. Not that he is finished. He goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is our program. So your question is answered or not? Huh? Your question is answered or not? Your question is answered or not? Indian man: Not fully. Acyutānanda: Do you understand? Indian man: Yes, I understand. Prabhupāda: Why it is not fully? Indian man: It is, after all, question put by a layman. Prabhupāda: Why you should "layman"? Why should not "wise man"? Why you should insist to remain a layman? Why you are persisting to remain a layman? Why? Indian man: Because they want... *Prabhupāda: "They" not. What I am talking with you. They are all foolish. We call them mūḍhas, duṣkṛtino mūḍhas. So their demand is not legitimate. If a mūḍha... If your small child says, "Father, give me a bidi, cigarette," would you give him? Because he is mūḍha. So the father is intelligent-"No." So similarly, the mūḍhas may demand that "Open this hospital." But we are not going to do that. We know.... Of course, hospital required so far the body is concerned, but there are so many hospitals. The real hospital which is not existing, we are starting. That is our mission, which is not possible for the so*-called leaders and politicians. Try to clear this. Yaśodānandana: Once you mentioned the story that when you were young you saw a mother running across the street in Calcutta beating her child because his brother had typhoid fever and he fed him the paratha. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Acyutānanda: Even socially, though, without religious, scientific, practical God consciousness, how can there be a civilization? How can anyone know that there's a difference between right and wrong or morality unless there is God consciousness, to know that someone is watching everything I do? If you avoid that.... Just like we say, they want Rāma*-rājya without Rāma. But they want the rājya. *Prabhupāda: Now, the laws and legislative assembly there are, and there is punishment, there is court*-everything there is. That we were discussing last night, that where is the honest men? Why? In spite of laws, legislative assembly, court and everything, the wholesale rogues and dishonest. Then what is the use of this? What is your answer? Why you are checked on the airport just like a culprit, criminal? They cannot trust even a gentleman, although he is educated, may be holding very good office, but still, he is not to be trusted. So this is the result of your so-called function, that there is no honest man throughout the whole world. Then, what is the use of such education? And what is the use of their living? Let them die. No hospital for them. Acyutānanda: A man in Calcutta, he was a devotee, rich also. He had some kidney thing. He wanted to go to the Calcutta hospital. They said, "All the beds are full of Naxalites with bomb wounds and stab wounds and fighting wounds." Prabhupāda: Just see. Acyutānanda: He could not get a bed in the hospital because it was full of guṇḍās. Hospitals were all full of guṇḍās. Yaśodānandana: In America they have the highest quality of hospitals and schools and everything, but yet the young people are turning to be hippies. You have mentioned that in the introduction to your *Nectar of Devotion*. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. What is the use of such education? Indian man: So your education which you gave may be something like..., not like that. Prabhupāda: Education means to do the right thing, not the wrong thing. That is education. Education means enlightenment, to know what is right, what is wrong. That is education. Harikeśa: It's 7:15 Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: It's 7:15. Prabhupāda: On the street there is sign board, "Keep to the left," or "Keep to the right." This is education. This is education. One must know how to run the car which side. Education means enlightenment. If you foolishly do something, immediately you become criminal. So education means to enlighten them to know what is right, what is wrong. That is education. But people do not know that. What is the meaning of education? [break] Mahāmṣa: Actually, in all the schools the young people are learning all the bad habits from the schools. Instead of getting to learn how to do right things, they are learning to do all wrong things because of association with people from low families. Vasughosa: And they even have sex education in school. They are teaching people how to be rogues. Prabhupāda: Our education is first of all to become brahmacārī, and the modern education is how to become vyabhicārī, this rascal education. And for this purpose there are big, big universities, vice chancellor, and so on, so on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now everything is so degraded that in American universities they have coeducational toilets. Prabhupāda: Gradually they are becoming animals, or they are already animals. Mahāmṣa: The principal of my school, he used to be a priest, and he used to give us these classes whereby he would tell the students that one must experience sex life before marriage. He was propagating illicit sex life in school, and being a principal and from a priestly class of person, so degraded. [break] Yaśodānandana: ...called Ahobilam. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also went there. And the paṇḍitas there, they have reference from the Brahmāṇḍa Purāṇa.... [break] ...was killed by Lord Nṛsiṁha. There is the room, the palace and everything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] Chipped rice? Mahāmṣa: No, that was sugar. Prabhupāda: Sugar? Salt. Harikeśa: That's the way their salt is here. Acyutānanda: In blocks? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rock salt. Prabhupāda: Not rock salt. Sea salt. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They get it from here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sea. Not here, where there is sea. Yaśodānandana: The sea is just fourteen miles away. Prabhupāda: Shallow water, when it is dried by the sunshine they get salt. Evaporation is done by sunshine, and they get the salt. Practically they get the salt without any cost, and whatever they get, money, they are satisfied. Acyutānanda: Why is the sea salty? [break] Science can't.... They have no answer. Mahāmṣa: Sweet water is falling, and it is becoming salty. Prabhupāda: Salt means earth. Earth. So in the water there is earth. Bhumir āpaḥ. So within the water there is earth. And within the fire there is water. And within the air there is fire. Sukṣmaṁ to sthūla. From sky to land. These are the different transformation stages. [break] Nehru? Nehru. [break] Eat rice only? Indian man: Yes, rice only. No capātis. Yaśodānandana: Yes, in South India they only eat rice. In Mysore we had a meal. The gentleman served us nine different kinds of rice. *Acyutānanda: Nava*-dhānya. *Yaśodānandana: Nava*-dhānya. Rice with yogurt, rice with chilies, rice with dahl, rice with everything. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is system in South India, with rice, everything. Just like in North India we make purī, kachorī, balusai, sṛṅgāra. There is ghee, wheat, and sugar and salt, varieties, hundreds of variety. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe it has something to do with the weather. The colder weather? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, in northern India, when there is some festival they will purchase, I mean to say, grains, means wheat and chānnā, and ghee and sugar. Then they will make hundreds of preparation out of it. Indian man: Here we call it as poṅgal. Make it as poṅgal, we call it. It's chānnā, ghee, and sugar. We prepare it in... Prabhupāda: Laḍḍu, you prepare laḍḍu? They prepare so many things. The main ingredient is this: besan, āttā, ghee, sugar. That's all. [break] ...also they eat rice more. Mahāmṣa: [break] ...left in Mysore. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But Bengal tiger. Acyutānanda: That's.... They've all been shot. Prabhupāda: [break] First of all understand what is meditation. Do you understand what is meditation? Do you understand? Indian man: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is meditation? Indian man (2): Giving all thoughts.... Coming to pure silence of the mind. Prabhupāda: So how you can be silent? Is it possible? Indian man (2): No, just by some sādhana. Prabhupāda: Silent is also.... (dog barking) The stones are silent. Does it mean meditation? Indian man (2): But mind cannot be silent. The mind must be made to (indistinct). Harikeśa: Hut! Prabhupāda: So then how you can make silent? Indian man (2): By seeing God in everything. Prabhupāda: Medita: tion is not silence. That is wrong idea. Meditation means to think of God. That is meditation. *Indian man (2): Brahma*-bhāvana. *Prabhupāda: Brahma*-bhāvana is also not practical. Parabrahma-bhāvana, kṛṣṇa-bhāvana. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Indian man (2): Supreme Lord. *Prabhupāda: That is real meditation. Meditation does not mean to make the mind vacant. No, a wrong. People are thinking like that. It cannot be. One girl-that is written-"Sir, meditation to make the mind out of all thoughts." So she said, she thought that "How can I be without thoughts? This 'without thought,' I'll think*-that is a thought. Therefore it is bogus." He (she) threw away this meditation book. Indian man (2): No, thinking about the God's thought, in course of time it will be empty. Mind will be empty. Prabhupāda: So unless you come.... According to your idea, unless you come to that emptiness, you are not perfect. But that will never come. Indian man (2): Then only it will be empty. Prabhupāda: That will never come. Therefore it is bogus. You cannot... Indian man (2): In the beginning it is bogus, but the result is... Prabhupāda: No, no. In the beginning bogus and it is always bogus, because mind cannot be without thought. So why do you propose "without thought"? That is not possible. Therefore it is bogus. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the beauty of having emptiness? Prabhupāda: That is another.... Emptiness mean he is troubled by so many anxieties; therefore he wants to make it empty. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's simply negative. Prabhupāda: Negative idea. That is material idea. That is not spiritual. Mahāmṣa: Nowadays people are going in silence, but they write questions and answers by paper. They say, "I am observing silence..." Prabhupāda: As if there is no sound. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Allahabad we met a man like that. He was moving around so much that he was more active than if he had talked. Prabhupāda: No, that "ooohh." That is the... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even Basarilal Nanda, I have heard, one day a week, on Sunday, it's his silence day. He doesn't speak to anyone on Sunday. Acyutānanda: Yes, Mahatma Gandhi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a good day to ask him for a donation. Prabhupāda: [break] What is the use of becoming silent? What is the utility? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For people who are rascals it is a very good idea. Then they won't talk nonsense. Prabhupāda: Yes. For them it is all right. Mahāmṣa: It is good for them. *Prabhupāda: Because they cannot speak anything good, better remain silent. [break] ...chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, yan*-nāma śruti-mātrena pumān bhavati nirmalaḥ. Simply by hearing he'll become purified. So why we shall become silent? Let them hear. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Constantly chanting. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Why.... Never said that "You become silent." Where is? Can you show me any verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā? Huh? Can you show me any verse where Kṛṣṇa has advised that you become silent? Or the mind is vacant? Where these things... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto. *Prabhupāda: Huh. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto: "The mind should be absorbed in My thought," man-manā. That is recommended. Where does He say that "Make your mind vacant and think of nonsense"? He never says. And where does He say that you become silent? He never says. *"Anyone who speaks about this Bhagavad*-gītā, he is My dearmost friend," He said. So why one should be silent? Our ultimate aim is how to become dearmost to Kṛṣṇa. And He never says that "You become silent." Why shall I become silent? Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. Rather, He recommends that "You always be engaged in glorifying Me." Where is the "silent"? These are all manufactured by these rascals. So many, meditation, silence-these are not recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā. (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 7, 1976, Nellore Prabhupāda: ...no taste, no vitamin, and still they eat. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can everything. They have canned food, canned fruits, canned... Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I have seen. Eating and remnants, it is kept in... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, put in the refrigerator. And then you cook it up again with fresh foods, mixing together. Harikeśa: Is it all right if he keeps it in there and then he puts some on the plate when taking? He puts on the plate when taking? Prabhupāda: I do not know whether it is all right, but it is not all right that you eat and keep it. This is not all right. Harikeśa: He takes it from there and puts it on the plate before you eat? *Yaśodā*-nandana: He keeps the salt in a separate bowl. When you require it he will give you only as much as you require. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. Hariśauri: That's why the bowl is there. That's what I intended to do, but I have to keep it away from the table. *Prabhupāda: The principle should be that you should not leave remnants of food. As soon as it is used, it should not be used more. Otherwise it is not possible to give up. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. I am eating something not very superior, but if I get the chance of eating something superior, then I give up this inferior. So there is no question of making it vacant or void. To fill up the place with better thing.... So when you think of Kṛṣṇa, then you forget māyā. Otherwise you are entrapped with māyā. Why Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto? Mām eva ye prapadyante. This is wanted. As soon as you become anyābhilāṣī, then it becomes difficult. Where is that knife? Give me one amroot(?). Cut into pieces and get... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think these are from the local..., growing here. *Prabhupāda: That we should be very careful, that we should think of Kṛṣṇa only, not of māyā, in everything. No more strength. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. Avismṛti*-kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ kṣinoty abhadrāṇi. We are in the abhadra, māyā. But avismṛti-kṛṣṇa-padaravindayoḥ kṣiṇoti. The thinking of māyā will gradually finish. Avismṛiti-kṛṣṇa-padaravindayoḥ kṣiṇoti... No, no, I said that you give these pieces, little, little. I'll do it myself. These pieces, this amroot(?), yes. Hariśauri: This. I'll give it out. Prabhupāda: So no vismṛti. Avismṛti. Vismṛti is ignorance. Avismṛti. All right. (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 8, 1976, Nellore Mahāṁsa: They say there are many old temples which need renovation, so they will spend the money for the renovation of old temples but not construct new temples. Prabhupāda: That means they don't want expansion. Mahāṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what kind of committee? Mahāṁsa: But that also is a farce, because they spent thirteen lakhs of rupees for construction of a temple in New York. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New York. Mahāṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So New York, we have got so many temples. Let them here. Mahāṁsa: They know. Anna(?) Rao, who is chairman.... [break] Prabhupāda: ...temples (indistinct) foreign countries, then let them (indistinct) We shall.... How? Mahāṁsa: They are very political. They want to take charge of everything that they give money for. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mahāṁsa: They want to take charge of everything that they give money for. Just like these temples which they have in New York, they will be in charge of them. They are the pūjārīs and things... Prabhupāda: That means they are constructing their own temple. Mahāṁsa: Yes. Acyutānanda: That will be a Gaṇeśa temple. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why Gaṇeśa temple? Mahāṁsa: Gaṇeśa and other deities also. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We know the people in charge of it. We went there for a program. Prabhupāda: That means all these foolish ideas. Mahāṁsa: Actually, Prabhupāda, it is only for.... They say it will ultimately be for the Hindu community there, for performing their marriages... Prabhupāda: So who, Hindu, will go? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, I have been to this Gaṇeśa temple. We went there for a program once. It's such a small piece of land in Queens. No one's going to go there. When we were there... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in Queens? Harikeśa: (laughs) In Flushing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...we distributed about twenty of your big books in half an hour there. Prabhupāda: In New York? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In that Gaṇeśa temple. I've gone there with Yadubara and Viśākhā once. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They already built it? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they have a temporary one, but they're building a.... They've been building it for five years. They just have a layout of all... Prabhupāda: What is their cult, this Tirupati committee? Acyutānanda: Hinduism. Hinduism. Very.... No definition of that term now, Hinduism. Just like if we want to get on the radio, they'll say, "Well, there are so many minor sects. So if we give time for one, then everybody will want." But then, when we want some other aid, they say, "No, you're a majority group. We have to help the minority groups." So sometimes we are a minor sect and sometimes we are a majority. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) All fools, rascals, mūḍhas. [break] The Tirupati is a Vaiṣṇava temple, so they should encourage.... Vaisnavism means real religion. All other, bogus, cheating religions. That is.... Dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo atra [SB 1.1.2]. Kaitava means cheating. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know that. What is this land? Indian man (1): The police superintendent's house. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Police superintendent. They are using the Deity's money, Prabhupāda, to maintain the universities. And in the universities they are teaching birth control and so many other things. Prabhupāda: So why don't you take them into court? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Take them to court. Yaśodānandana: It's like fighting against the government. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are the court. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are the court. Prabhupāda: They are the court means? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean to say, the same persons are the court. They're all one clique. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The court has legalized abortion, for example, now. Harikeśa: In India? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. In America. In India also the government's encouraging. Acyutānanda: In India it's encouraged. They get a reward. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The government pays. Yaśodānandana: They give a radio. *Acyutānanda: They'll give you a prize, and the person who brings someone, he will get twenty*-five rupees. And the doctor, after a month he gets a bonus. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Now the government is thinking of having a policy by which if a person has more than two children he will not be promoted, he will not get raises*-to discourage. Acyutānanda: The Mohammedan community has refused, and Christian. So they feel... Prabhupāda: So why not Hindus? Acyutānanda: Hindus are doing. So they feel in a few generations the Mohammedan, Christian community will outnumber the Hindu. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that their plan? Acyutānanda: Yes. Even to the point that Purī Śaṅkarācārya printed a book how everyone should have five children; all Hindus should have as many children as they want. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...authorities, do they believe in Bhagavad*-gītā? Huh? *Indian man (1): Yes. Every day there you'll find Bhagavad*-gītā. *Prabhupāda: Then why they are going against Bhagavad*-gītā? Indian man (1): That I don't know. Every day they are preaching... *Prabhupāda: Ask them that "What is the meaning of your reading Bhagavad*-gītā daily if you go against it?" Indian man (1): But they are not going, but the preachers who comes there, they are doing it. Prabhupāda: What they are doing? *Acyutānanda: They bring in preachers to preach Bhagavad*-gītā, but they themselves, they don't read Bhagavad-gītā. *Prabhupāda: So preachers means third*-class preachers. Anybody is allowed to speak, any nonsense? That is going on? Devotee: How they are going against it, Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: You read Bhagavad*-gītā? You do not know how they are going against? Devotee: I'm not familiar with this. *Prabhupāda: Then why do you say, "I read Bhagavad*-gītā?" Devotee: I'm not familiar with Tirupati's practice. *Prabhupāda: Tirupati is establishing Gaṇeśa temple. That is against Bhagavad*-gītā. Bhagavān says that kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānā yajanty anya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. The rascals who are very much lusty, lost their intelligence, they worship other demigods. Acyutānanda: The Rāmānuja sannyāsīs have had all their authority taken away from them by these... Prabhupāda: Huh? Acyutānanda: All their authority in the temples has been taken away by the government committee. Prabhupāda: Just see. Acyutānanda: Just ritualistically in the morning the sannyāsī comes and opens the door. He holds the key. We met him at Rangaji. Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya sannyāsīs, they have no influence over them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...to me that the actual purpose of this Tirupati government committee is eventually to do away with all religious function. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's their real plan. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: How to take the money that's being donated. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the beginning. They are making a show now, but eventually the plan will be to close all the temples. Mahāṁsa: Nationalize all temples. Harikeśa: Not close, 'cause you can make a lot of money. It's easier than enacting taxes. Mahāṁsa: Just like banks. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but when they don't become profitable then they'll close it. That's the point. Milk 'em dry. Instead of the state or the government being the servant of the Deity, they are making the Deity the servant of the government. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Money*-earning servant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The tax collector. Acyutānanda: Just like they nationalize industries, they want to nationalize the temple, Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: In Andhra Pradesh all the temples are nationalized? Indian man (1): Yes, all temples. Harikeśa: What about ours? Mahāṁsa: Well, they're not so strong in the other states. Andhra Pradesh and... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they'll copy it. I think they're starting in U.P. now. I read in the paper. Acyutānanda: Anywhere that there are big temples. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: U.P. has a lot of temples. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what about our temples? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they will gradually try. Prabhupāda: So you make this American property. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Make it American property. Harikeśa: How about English? Prabhupāda: Our society is registered in America. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In India presently we are registered in Bombay and all the other centers are branch offices. That's why in Hyderabad they haven't touched us. In Maharastra.... I think Maharastra will be the last state to do something of this type. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But then when it does it, what will you do? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll try our best to escape it, but if there's... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should try to make some provision now if possible. Mahāṁsa: If the government wants to do that, you can't do anything. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we are changing.... We are making our constitution look like a welfare society, so this way we may not fall under this. Acyutānanda: We have to preach to them so that they understand the value of this movement. Prabhupāda: [break] Europeans, they are coming here not for religion, but they are coming for the Kṛṣṇa culture. You have to make that. Religion they have already got, Christian. Why they should come? Mahāṁsa: They will say that this Kṛṣṇa culture is Hinduism. *Prabhupāda: Then he's a rascal. Prove it in the court. Kṛṣṇa is not Hinduism. Never.... Is there anything in the Bhagavad*-gītā that Kṛṣṇa says, "I am for the Hindus or for the Indians"? Acyutānanda: The Hindu law is so elastic, anyone who calls himself a Hindu or who practices any branch... Mahāṁsa: Or puts on tilaka. Acyutānanda: Puts on tilaka, he may have the lowest character or the highest standard, anyone, he will be all considered a Hindu. Prabhupāda: So this should be taken to court, on the Supreme Court. Harikeśa: But if there is no definition of Hindu, how can you prove... Prabhupāda: There is no Hindu. It is not.... Therefore we are not Hindu. Acyutānanda: Well, they'll say, "This is our definition. This is what we say a Hindu is." Prabhupāda: Huh? Acyutānanda: The court says, "This is what we say a Hindu is. So you're Hindus." Prabhupāda: No, no. And court can say anything, but then why not put it into the judgment of many judges? Harikeśa: Then we have to establish what is Hinduism... Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: ...and what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Acyutānanda: It is already established. *Prabhupāda: You can define anything. That does not mean that your definition is perfect. Actually we have to.... Who...? Suppose Hindu. So who is not accepting Bhagavad*-gītā? But where is...? In the Bhagavad-gītā where is the mention of "Hindu"? Hm? Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the father of all living entities." So why do they say that this is Hindusim? Acyutānanda: "Well, all religions say that they are the best. Jesus Christ says, 'Everyone who comes to me, they will get the grace of God.' So the same thing. But still they are Christians and you are Hindus." Prabhupāda: So this cannot stay in the court. Kṛṣṇa's instruction is not for the Hindus. Nowhere it is mentioned. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The word "Hindu" doesn't appear in the *Vedas* anywhere. Acyutānanda: Then why do you use in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness the Hindu caste marks, Hindus caste marks and tilakas? This is all Hinduism. Prabhupāda: No, this is not Hinduism. Appears like Hindu. Just like you appear like an Indian sannyāsī, but you are not Indian. Acyutānanda: The judge is wearing a white wig and a British suit. He's not British either. Prabhupāda: No, we are clearly stating Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Harikeśa: Yes, but Kṛṣṇa is a Hindu god. Prabhupāda: That is your definition. Kṛṣṇa doesn't say. Harikeśa: But my definition counts 'cause I'm in charge. Prabhupāda: You can do any nonsense. That is.... Therefore you have to be taken to the court, that "How you can..." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they are the court. Prabhupāda: "...talk like nonsense and do like nonsense? Then anyone can do any nonsense thing? Then who will control you?" Harikeśa: That's the point. Mahāṁsa: The chief justice himself was saying like that in Madras. Their opinion will come in their favor. Prabhupāda: No, they can give opinion, but there is supreme court. There is international court. We shall go... Mahāṁsa: International court? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's only for disputes between countries, international court. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is country-"We are American. They are forcing us to become a Hindu." This is between country. You have to tackle with intelligence. Mahāṁsa: It's become a world issue. Acyutānanda: In most books about Hinduism they describe that Hinduism is a cult where they worship many gods and ultimately God is formless. Prabhupāda: No. Acyutānanda: So we are against that. Then we are not Hindus even philosophically according to that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are against all so*-called cheating religion. The Hinduism is also a cheating religion. We are preaching Bhāgavata, and Bhāgavata beginning that "We have kicked out all cheating religion." What is cheating religion? That one has to understand. And Bhāgavata says, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇitam: [SB 6.3.19] "Religion means the order given by God." If you do not know who is God, "imperson," then where is your religion? We have to tackle things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They will consult all the standard dictionaries about Kṛṣṇa's definition and all the... *Prabhupāda: Dictionary is not the standard. The standard is the book itself. That is our preaching. You may bring some dictionary made by some fools. No. We have to take reference. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Acyutānanda: Well, even Jesus Christ just said, "I am for all," but there is Christianity. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. Either God or God's representative, He is for everyone. Suhṛdaṁ sarva*-bhūtānām [Bg. 5.29]. That is the definition of sādhu. Titikṣavaḥ karunikaḥ suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām [SB 3.25.21]. A saintly person..., as God is for everyone, a saintly person is for everyone. Why he should be for Hindu or Muslim or Christian? That is the definition of saintly person. Suhrdaḥ. Suhṛdaḥ means well-wisher. So either Christ or any Vaiṣṇava, he is well-wisher for everyone. [break] ...suhṛdaḥ sarva-bhūtānām. We are preaching all over the world and they are appreciating. Harikeśa: So many others have preached Hinduism but have no result. Prabhupāda: No result. Why they should become Hindu? Acyutānanda: That sign is there, "Swami Vivekananda, the Hindu monk." *Prabhupāda: But who cares for Rāmakrishna Mission? Hindu monk, but who cares for the Rāmakrishna Mission? For the last eighty*-five years they are working. How many Hindus they have made? Simply bogus propaganda. They advertise that "We have made all Americans..." But where the Americans? They picked up two American ladies, that's all. Where is the Hindu sādhus eating meat? Acyutānanda: Here it says, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Babu nagar." Prabhupāda: Huh? Acyutānanda: Who is Hare Kṛṣṇa Babu? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It says "Hare Kṛṣṇa nagar atar(?)" in the front also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is that? [break] Indian man (1): That is Hare Kṛṣṇa land. This is Hare Kṛṣṇa Babu. Prabhupāda: Babu? Babu means? Indian man (1): It's a name of the... *Prabhupāda: Foreign devotees, they are joining this movement not because it is a Hindu culture. They take it as a real spiritual culture. Otherwise why, for the last hundred, two hundred years, the Hindu sannyāsīs, yogis, were going there? Who did accept it? Did anybody? The Rāmakrishna Mission, Hindu monk, within the eighty*-five years, how many Hindus they have made? You can count maybe a dozen only. Huh? Did they make any Hindus, European, American young boys? And it is the Hindu custom that sannyāsīs eat meat? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Drink wine. Prabhupāda: Drink wine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And have women. Prabhupāda: [break] ...drinking wine and eating meat, the next stage is illicit sex. Is that the business of the Hindu monk? There are sampradāyas, Rāmānuja sampradāya, Śaṅkara sampradāya. But where the Hindu monk drinks and eats meat? They have introduced it. Is that Hinduism? Acyutānanda: [break] Satajit. Prabhupāda: Nowadays everyone has become impersonal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: [break] ...pure Vaiṣṇava. What is that? Indian man (1): House of a life member. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...take to our principles, these things will be automatically be finished. Na ca daivāt paraṁ balam. *Vasughosa: [break] In Indonesia the government has a Hindu*-Buddha department. Prabhupāda: Hm? Vasughoṣa: Hinduism department in Indonesia. So they've divided the land..., you know, the different religions into different departments, and they have one man who studied in Benares. He's in charge of the whole country for Hinduism and Buddhism. Prabhupāda: So why they do not allow our? Vasughosa: No, actually they allow us. They allow our society, but it's such a corrupt country that at any moment they could kick us out if they want. They have no principle except money. Prabhupāda: Just like Africa. Vasughosa: Yes. But the man seems to be a little intelligent, a little knowledgeable. I met him. He seems to be a little.... [break] They try to renovate temples there. They are very old temples like in India and they have... *Prabhupāda: [break] ...they do not give for so*-called religion, it is better. They are not spoiling the money. *Acyutānanda: The head of that Viśva*-Hindu went to Delhi to get tax exemption. So they said, "You drop the name Hindu." They said, "No, we will never drop the name Hindu. Even if you don't give us tax exemption, we will be without the tax exempt but we will never give up our name Hindu." *Prabhupāda: [break] Whatever whimsically you make your law, that is law. Actually they are not fighting. Hindu law means Manu*-saṁhitā. So who is pressing them that "We don't require any law except this"? And where is that Hindu, strong Hindu? Hindu means Manu-saṁhitā. [break] ...mānave prāhur. This Manu. Original instruction is coming from Manu. [break] ...the word Manu, the word mānava has come. Just like he has started that mānava-dharma. Mānava-dharma means Manu. That he does not know. From Manu, mānava has come, just like from sādhu, sādhava has come. They do not know even grammar. These leaders, they do not know even grammar. [break] ...chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam. Mahāṁsa: Yes. Harikeśa: If the government is giving them free homes and we're giving them free prasādam, why should they work? Prabhupāda: They should work for Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: But there is one economist. I think you've quoted him, John Kenneth Galbraith. He says that if there's no.... If somebody is supplied with a place to sleep and something to eat, why should he work? That he won't work unless there is some motivation. If he's forced to work, he will work. Otherwise he won't work. Prabhupāda: No. Your preaching is not meant for creating a lazy class of men. You have to engage them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness business. That is preaching. Mahāṁsa: Then you feed them prasādam. Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and then give him prasādam. He will be automatically purified, and offer himself for service. Harikeśa: So they have to chant first. Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: Then they will say, "Well, you are proselytizing by rice." Prabhupāda: I am not proselytizing. I am bringing him... Acyutānanda: Unless they take to your religion... Prabhupāda: ...to his original consciousness. Acyutānanda: Unless they follow you, then you won't feed them. You are starving them until they... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We shall go on. Chanting will also go on. Both things. Acyutānanda: That was the article of the CARE, I think. They will give food, but you cannot use it to proselytize. *Prabhupāda: No, we give kṛṣṇa*-prasādam, not food. Acyutānanda: Like in Guntur, in a Christian hospital, in the maternity ward they would not release the baby to the parents until they converted to Christianity. Harikeśa: Where? Acyutānanda: In Guntur. So they did it to one brāhmaṇa family, and he brought it to the court because he was more orthodox, and they were.... Only one or two articles came in the newspaper. It was hushed up. Harikeśa: It takes ten years for the court to decide. Acyutānanda: Well, immediately the police ordered that it had to be released. Or they put.... Just like the Mohammedan water, they put some bread in a well in a place like this, and then they can say, "You are all Christian now because you have drunk the bread that we have put there." Prabhupāda: They are doing like that here? Acyutānanda: Yes. In Europe, when Christianity first came to Constantine, the priests would stay in the top of a river, and they marched an army through the river, and the priest put the holy water, and when the army came on the other side they said, "Now you've all been baptized. You're all Christians." Mass conversion. [break] ...Hindu groups are mixing Hinduism and Indian nationality, it's fascism. That was also the government's... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh? Acyutānanda: Fascism. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? Acyutānanda: The Hindu groups. That was the point that enraged the government. The same paṇḍitas with the prāyaścitta, they don't like the Mohammedans, they don't like the Christians. They say, "You have created Pakistan, so all the Mohammedans should go there. This is Hindustan." Prabhupāda: Murvi(?) meat here? Indian man (1): Not everyone did. Prabhupāda: Mostly. Indian man (1): Mostly. Nowadays it is a fashion to eat when the brāhmaṇas take in a house. Prabhupāda: Taking? Indian man (1): Yes, they take it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The brāhmaṇas? Indian man (1): Yes, most of them. [break] Prabhupāda: ...sambhava. Where is brāhmaṇa? All śūdra. Indian man (1): But according to.... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...not vegetarian. We are neither nonvegetarian. We eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. Kṛṣṇa says, "Give me this food." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ [Bg. 9.26]. So we offer Him, and then we eat it, so we have nothing to do with vegetarian and nonvegetarian. If Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give Me flesh," then we can eat flesh also. But Kṛṣṇa does not say that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I have heard one person say that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ doesn't include other things. There are many other things that we offer Kṛṣṇa besides patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So similarly, why can't we offer meat? He doesn't say, "Don't offer me meat." Prabhupāda: Hm. Hm? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the Bhagavad*-gītā it doesn't say you can't offer Kṛṣṇa meat. Prabhupāda: So if you like, you can do that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't want to. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) What directly He says, you have to take. And if you interpret, that can be interpreted. Acyutānanda: They have rewritten the Bible, "Thou shalt not murder." Prabhupāda: [break] ...can be used as paper weight. (laughter) [break] ...use anything for Kṛṣṇa. Yaśodānandana: ...temples they are worshiping this Dvārakā-śilā with the śalagrāma-śilā. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but we have no such instruction. (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 8, 1976, Nellore *Prabhupāda: This is idea. Mano*-rathena, by mental speculation, asato dhavato, they will come to materialism. As soon as they will hover over mental concoction, they will remain in the material pool, because mind is subtle form of matter. Acyutānanda: Also, in their evidences by which they base their dialectic discussions, have they regarded the Vedic scriptures? They have avoided them very conveniently. *Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of dialectic discussion. Suppose I am discussing, you are discussing something, but if I am imperfect, you are imperfect, what is the value of such discussion? That is the point. The party discussing something, whether he is perfect? If he is not perfect, then go on discussing. We first of all say that any conditioned soul is defective, and that is admitted. They say, "We are not perfect." "I think," they say. "In my opinion," they say. Never they say, the so*-called scientists, "definite." And they cannot say it. Mahamsa: That is like Dr. Frog's philosophy when they speculate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply speculation. So that kind of discussion, what is the value? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's always a hypothesis. *Prabhupāda: If some children discuss some serious subject matter, what is the value? And they are all children in the cradle of nature, that's all. Prakṛteḥ kriya.... Therefore it is word, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. Just like children-"Ha! Sit down here"*-he has to sit down. Then where is his freedom to discuss? Prakṛti says that "You sit down here. Don't go there." He has to accept. Then what is the value of discussion? Acyutānanda: Mainly, these Karl Marx, they were angry at the Christian church for exploiting the poor masses, and that's the reason... Prabhupāda: This is our... Acyutānanda: ...so he has attacked. He has taken vengeance on this. Prabhupāda: That they are doing. Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water. They have no philosophy and they violate everything, what is stated there in Bible. Now you say that "Thou shall not kill; *" they say, "Thou shall not murder." They are molding. Now this homosex they are sanctioning, man*-to-man marriage. They are sanctioning abortion. Acyutānanda: Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals. Prabhupāda: Just see. Is that religion? Yaśodānandana: The simple fact that the Christians have to sprinkle water to convert means that they do not have any potency to by philosophy, to preach to them with strong philosophy. Prabhupāda: There is no.... So, go on reading. Harikesa: I'll backspace two sentences. Acyutānanda: [break] "...have allowed us to wither away these different countries, and the religionists, they are keeping all the food. They are not distributing it." Yaśodānandana: If we say that the Russia has no grains, they will say that they are big wheat producers in the southern part. They may counteract by saying, "We also produce..." Acyutānanda: They had to purchase wheat from America. Gurukeśa: Russia is importing its food grains now. Prabhupāda: So why they cannot produce sufficient, such a big country? Gurukeśa: And Eastern Europe, which is also communist, gets all its supplies from... Prabhupāda: No, what is their explanation. Russia is the biggest country. Gurukeśa: Land. Hari-śauri: The reason was that there was no rain. *Prabhupāda: Then? Then you have to depend on rain, and when we say, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ... Hm? And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. That means, rascal, you take one side, that ardha-kukuti-nyāya. Cut the chicken half, and separate the mouth-it is expensive*-and keep the rear side. You get eggs. (laughter) So this is ardha-kukuṭi-nyāya. The rascal does not know that if you separate the mouth there will be no egg. Gurukeśa: They say that's depending upon nature. But they do not know who... *Acyutānanda: The word nature should be condemned. That.... No scientific*-minded person can say the word nature. *Prabhupāda: No, they do not know what is nature. Nature is an instrument, and there must be an operator. So that they do not know, the operator. Just like a child is thinking the motorcar is going automatically. He does not know there is a driver. The child sees that the airplane is flying. They think it is automatically going. And there is a pilot, he does not know. Similarly, these rascals, they are studying nature, but nature is an instrument only. It is being operated by Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. They have practical experience that without operator a machine cannot work. In the huge machine, how it is working unless there is operator? That they do not know. Gurukeśa: That's what they never trying to find. Prabhupāda: Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Find out this verse. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍha. Therefore they are all mūḍhas. So we are not going to be misled by the mūḍhas. That is not possible. We take the instruction of the topmost intelligent person, Kṛṣṇa. I think our Svarūpa Dāmodara has said that. Where is that book? He has given: "Kṛṣṇa, the topmost scientist." Yes. "Perceiving the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa." He has given this article. Acyutānanda: How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not defective like other living beings? Prabhupāda: Huh? Acyutānanda: How do we know that Vedavyasa is not... *Prabhupāda: He is not defective because he is speaking what he has heard from Nārada. Therefore he is not defective. Just like we are speaking. We are not perfect. We are also ordinary human being, but people are taking that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has done wonder." What is that wonder? I am speaking Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, that's all. Acyutānanda: Like the Mormon religion in America... Prabhupāda: No, no, don't bring any other.... That is... Acyutānanda: He claimed that an angel... Prabhupāda: If you accept.... We are taking from God. Kṛṣṇa instructed Brahmā, Brahmā instructed Nārada, Nārada instructed Vyāsadeva, and therefore we are taking. Acyutānanda: So it is a novel. Like Shakespeare wrote Hamlet... Prabhupāda: Yes. It may be novel for you because we take you as a mūḍha. We don't give any credit. We say.... Find out this, mūdho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have this, mūḍho 'yam nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]? Prabhupāda: Hm hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent." Prabhupāda: Yes, the fools. He does not know Kṛṣṇa; therefore he is fool. Read it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yogamāyā, and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible." Mahamsa: So who is fool is defined as avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritaḥ [Bg. 9.11]. Prabhupāda: Hm? Mahamsa: Who is a fool, that is defined in the other verse, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mānuṣīṁ tanum āśri... That one who considers Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being, he is mūḍha. So read the purport. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "It may be argued that since Kṛṣṇa was present on this earth and was visible by everyone, then why isn't He manifest to everyone now? But actually, He was not manifest to everyone. When Kṛṣṇa was present there were only a few people who could understand Him to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the assembly of Kurus, when Śiśupāla spoke against Kṛṣṇa being elected president of the assembly, Bhīṣma supported Him and proclaimed Him to be the Supreme God. Similarly, the Pāṇḍavas and a few others..." Prabhupāda: Sisupala could not see, although Kṛṣṇa was present there, but Bhisma could see. So you require special eyes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānām [Bg. 10.10]. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ... [Bs. 5.38]. So unless you are qualified, how you can see Kṛṣṇa? This is the point. Kṛṣṇa is there, and the rascal Śiśupāla could not see Him, but Bhisma could see Him. So they say, "Can you show me God?" Even God comes before you, unless you have got the qualified eyes you cannot see Him. Therefore qualification required. Premāñjana-cchurita. When your eyes will be annointed with, what is called? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve of love. Acyutānanda: Ointment. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve of love. Acyutānanda: Ointment. Prabhupāda: Savoth? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve, salve. Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve, s*-a-l-v-e. *Prabhupāda: Oh, salve of love, yes. So that is required. Your.... Therefore tat*-paratvena nirmalam. You have to make your senses purified; *then bhakti will begin. Otherwise it is karma. If your senses are not purified, then it is karma. There is a difference between karma and.... Premāñjana*-cchurita... What is that? Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. If you think yourself that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am this," "I am that," then you are not upādhi-mukta; *therefore you cannot see Kṛṣṇa. You can see Kṛṣṇa when you are no more within these upādhis, pure soul. Brahma.... That is real brahma*-bhūtaḥ, to understand the position of the soul and engage the soul in the service of the Lord. Then it is perfect. Go on. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Similarly, the Pāṇḍavas and a few others knew that He was the Supreme, but not everyone. He was not revealed to the nondevotees and the common men. Therefore in the Gītā Kṛṣṇa says that but for His pure devotees, all men consider Him to be like themselves. He was manifest only to His devotees as the reservoir of all pleasure. But to others, to unintelligent nondevotees, He was covered by His eternal potency. In the prayers of Kunti in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam (1.8.18), it is said that the Lord is covered by the curtain of yogamāyā, and thus ordinary people cannot understand Him. Kuntī prays: 'Oh my Lord, You are the maintainer of the entire universe, and devotional service to You is the highest religious principle. Therefore I pray that You will also maintain me. Your transcendental form is covered by the yoga-māyā. The brahmajyoti is the covering of the internal potency. May You kindly remove this glowing effulgence that impedes my seeing Your sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], Your eternal form of bliss and knowledge.' This yogamāyā curtain is also mentioned in the Fifteenth Chapter of the Gītā. The Supreme Personality of Godhead in His transcendental form of bliss and knowledge is covered by the eternal potency of brahmajyoti, and the less intelligent impersonalists cannot see the Supreme on this account. Also in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (10.14.7) there is this prayer by Brahmā: 'O Supreme Personality of Godhead, O Supersoul, O master of all mystery, who can calculate Your potency and pastimes in this world? You are always expanding Your eternal potency, and therefore no one can understand You. Learned scientists and learned scholars can examine the atomic constitution of the material world or even the planets, but still they are unable to calculate Your energy and potency, although You are present before them.' The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa, is not only unborn, but He is avyaya, inexhaustible. His eternal form is bliss and knowledge, and His energies are all inexhaustible." Prabhupāda: So, go and discuss. (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 9, 1976, Madras Acyutānanda: ..."Please, everyone join and say, 'Rāma ki jaya.' " Nobody.... Complete silence. Again he said, "Everyone say, 'Sai Rāma,' " and somebody yelled out, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa," and the whole audience said, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," then he said "Hare Kṛṣṇa." (dog barking) Prabhupāda: Oh, Sai Rāma. *Acyutānanda: Big Māyāvādī. And later on he had a very nice program for us. But the first day we visited*-as I said, that he plays with snakes-so as we were leaving I said to Yaśodānandana Mahārāja, "I didn't see any snakes." He says, "Didn't you see that man on the āsana? (Prabhupāda laughs) That big one?" Prabhupāda: That he said. Yaśodānandana: That was just between ourselves. Prabhupāda: Oh. Acyutānanda: Then he had a program with us, and he was chanting. He was a very nice man. Yaśodānandana: He came and danced with us also. Acyutānanda: And all the Śaivite brāhmaṇas doing the yajña, they came and danced with us like ghosts, like madmen. Prabhupāda: [break] ...that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, that is not very much liked by others. What do you think, huh? When you say that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, it is not very much liked by others. Huh? Indian man (1): Everyone likes. Prabhupāda: Everyone likes? Yaśodānandana: Except the Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: There are many Māyāvādīs. Yaśodānandana: They may not like, but they cannot prove the contrary. They cannot prove that Kṛṣṇa is not the Supreme. Indian man (1): Even in cinema, when they see the picture of Kṛṣṇa, the audience will feel very happy. Acyutānanda: Our cinema or on the outside? Indian man (1): Ordinary cinemas also. Acyutānanda: There is one actor who always plays Kṛṣṇa, N.T. Ramaram. So once he came on the street and everyone came following him and touching his feet. Prabhupāda: Acchā? Acyutānanda: Because they thought he was Kṛṣṇa. Because they saw him playing Kṛṣṇa in every movie. So he had hundreds of people following him. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...yata āyur*-vyayaḥ param. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, tat prayāsaṁ na kartavyam: "This kind of endeavor you should not do, exploitation." Not exploitation. I mean to say, unnecessarily trying for developing economic condition. The modern civilization is: "Exploit nature and materially be opulent." Yaśodānandana: It has been seen everywhere we travel that there is plenty of rice everywhere, there is plenty of food growing everywhere, but yet the government is advertising that there is scarcity of food in everything. But there is plenty growing everywhere. Prabhupāda: And reduce population, kill it. Hiraṇyakaśipu was doing that. Acyutānanda: Birth control? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prajāpati. He stopped Prajāpatis to beget children. Indian man (2): They said they are giving employment to many people. Prabhupāda: Who? Indian man (2): The government says they are giving employment by opening these mica mines and so many things. The government says they are giving employment and work to many people. Prabhupāda: Hm. So you like to be employed? *Acyutānanda: In one mine recently there was a big cave*-in, and how many people...? Three hundred men were killed. Prabhupāda: Mica mine? Acyutānanda: Coal. In... Prabhupāda: In Bihar. Acyutānanda: Bihar. Indian man (2): [break] In Bangalore, when I was meeting one person and encouraging to become a member, he was telling that among the Durgā worships, one of the Durgā forms called Śānti Dūrga is under the mode of goodness worship. I just want some clarification. *Acyutānanda: Sattva*-guṇa is also māyā. Somebody asked, "There is a Maṅgala-gaurī." So I said, "That means there must be some other Gaurīs who are not maṅgala. Why they have specified that this Gaurī is Maṅgala-gaurī. Then other Gaurīs are not maṅgala." *Prabhupāda: [break] ...saṁhitā we understand, sṛṣṭi*-sthiti-pralaya. The pralaya is amaṅgala, and sṛṣṭi is maṅgala. Sthiti is also maṅgala. So Gaurī has got three functions, Durgā. Devotee (3): [break] A devotee who has tasted the nectar of the lotus feet of the Lord can never, if he falls down, can never forget it. Does it mean that his journey in the material world is finished, I mean, is about to finish? Prabhupāda: Answer, somebody. Mahāṁśa: What was the question? Prabhupāda: Answer. Devotee (3): A person who has tasted the nectar of the lotus feet of the Lord, if he falls down he can never forget anything. He doesn't act like an ordinary karmī. Does that mean that his journey in the material world is about to finish? Mahāṁśa: He falls down due to certain offenses, but afterwards, by the mercy of a pure devotee, he comes back. Because he has tasted the nectar of devotional service, he may try to enjoy the material world for some time. But afterwards he will be fed up again and come back. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā that if one is engaged in the service of the Lord, even if he falls down, he is to be considered saintly. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Prabhupāda: Yes, if it is accidental. If it is purposefully, then he is not saintly; then he is offender. Bharadvaja(?): Accidentally means that māyā... *Prabhupāda: Accident.... He had former habit, and unknowingly he has done something wrong. That is accident. That is explained by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Not purposefully doing wrong. That is aparādha. Nāmnād balād yasya hi pāpa*-buddhiḥ. *Acyutānanda: The Deities' name is Rādhā*-Parthasarathi. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Acyutānanda: The name of the Delhi Deities is Rādhā*-Parthasarathi. So how do we understand? Because Partha means Arjuna. So Rādhā, how does Rādhā get there? Prabhupāda: When Kṛṣṇa is Parthasarathi, Rādhā is out of Him? Does it mean? Indian man (1): What you mean, Parthasarathi is Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Acyutānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That's all. Yes. Rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir āhlādini-śaktir. When He is fighting, the āhlādini-śakti is there. It is not manifest. *Acyutānanda: [break] ...they have Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā*-Rukmiṇī. Prabhupāda: Hm? Acyutānanda: Rādhā, Rukmiṇī, and Kṛṣṇa. So won't Kṛṣṇa feel embarrassed to stand between Rādhā and Rukmiṇī at the same time? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why? Why embarrassed? Two sides? One side, Rādhā... Acyutānanda: Yes. One side, Rādhā, one side, Rukmiṇī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that bona fide, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. I don't find any fault. Acyutānanda: It's not rasābhāsa? Prabhupāda: Huh? Not rasābhāsa. But it is not mentioned in anywhere. This is mental.... They should not have done like that. Several times He requested the gopīs, I think, that "You come to Dvārakā," but they refused. *Acyutānanda: The gopī*-candana comes from the lake where they say the gopīs drowned themselves, and that is near Dvārakā. Is that a true story? Prabhupāda: Maybe they might have gone. [break] ...these houses. Indian man (1): These private houses given by the government. (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 12, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...finalization. Huh? Festival? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Finalized the dates of the festival. Prabhupāda: Or by telephone. What is this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, I have to know today whether he's got the Ramaleela ground or not. Prabhupāda: What is that ground? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ramaleela ground for the festival. He was trying for that. [break] Prabhupāda: ...is also stopped? Devotee (1): No, no, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's going on. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: One is Dr. Patel, and another man comes with him every morning. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...racing their cars for years together. And as soon as one car comes in our hand, within one hour finish and stand: "See that I have got a car." Make a show that "Here is a car." And for use, beg others, "Please give me your car." This is going on. [break] That Caitya*-guru. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Caitya*-guru. He is on the terrace doing his rounds. He is refusing to sign that letter, but he has turned over the possessions to me. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He has turned over... Prabhupāda: No, no, he must sign the.... Otherwise we shall have to inform. He must sign. He must sign. Otherwise we shall have to take steps. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "First you prove that I'm guilty." But I said... Prabhupāda: But this is your charge. You say that "I have not done it." Present him and you say in writing that "I have never done it. Now I shall do it." Otherwise we shall have to do the needful. [break] ...go to Māyāpur. He is ready to go to Māyāpur? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is ready to go to Māyāpur but not right away. But he'll join you in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Huh? No, he has to go with me. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Okay. Prabhupāda: [break] That Bengali gentleman? Dr. Patel: Bhaṭṭācārya. I don't know him. He is staying here? Prabhupāda: No. Where he is staying? You do not know. So did he come today in the maṅgala-ārati? Dr. Patel: No, I don't know him, and I don't think I have seen him. Devotee (2): Bhattacharya doesn't come to maṅgala-ārati. Dr. Patel: ...the all Patels are giving you right now from Africa. Prabhupāda: But not here. Dr. Patel: Ninety percent of the.... Here they are very poor. Those who are in States are rich. Prabhupāda: You are not poor. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: We are poor as compared to.... We just live, no? Three percent(?) we acquire for our status.(?) We don't require much money. Prabhupāda: [break] ...death. Dr. Patel: Death is an artifact. There is no death. That is what Arjuna thought, and now, still, sir, you say they are dead. What is death? There is no death? Prabhupāda: Arjuna's thought is different. That is Arjuna's thought. I mean these people, these materialists... Dr. Patel: Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam akledyo aśoṣya eva ca. Prabhupāda: ...they are actually dying and they are flying also. Dr. Patel: Who is dying? The body. The body is nothing but the earth. Prabhupāda: They have no such conclusions. We have got, that is a different thing, but they are trying to kill the mosquitoes to save themselves, but they cannot save. That is my point. They cannot save. When the "death mosquito" will come, he has to accept it. That he cannot manu... Dr. Patel: He, after all, is what we call ego. When the ego dies, then, sir, there is no he or she or mosquito or man or anything, sir. Prabhupāda: But he is not that man. He is trying to kill the mosquito to save himself from death. But that he cannot. That is my proposal. Dr. Patel: Yes. He could at least save the American government from catastrophe, how to drain before finishing this Panama Canal. The Panama Canal is an engineering feat, sir. The two sides, seas, are uneven, and they have made locks in the.... You must have seen that. No? They have locks. One side, sea is higher than the other, and they allow the ships to get to the middle lock, then pump in water and then bring on that side. Engineers must be knowing, you know. We had to study all these things, medical history. Prabhupāda: So many medicines, vitamin D, vitamin C... Dr. Patel: All medicines, sir, vitamins, and all even hormones... Prabhupāda: But why not discover something that you will save from death? Dr. Patel: But what is death, after all? Our forefathers found it out... Prabhupāda: Then why you are trying to live? Dr. Patel: We want to make you live in a good way so that you can think well and solve your life. That is what we are doing. We don't want to keep your, this body going on for all the time. Who says, sir? I do not think that is the aim of the medical profession, to keep... Prabhupāda: But they have to accept because they cannot do it. Dr. Patel: We give you health, sir, from the disease. We don't... Prabhupāda: You cannot give health. Why he is dying? Dr. Patel: Dying is not health. We talk of health and disease, not of the death and life. Prabhupāda: No. Unless there is some disease you do not die. Dr. Patel: No, what is disease? Disease is something... Prabhupāda: Again you are coming to... Dr. Patel: ...that is not physiological. The end of physiology is death. Prabhupāda: So why you are trying to cure it? Dr. Patel: We don't try to cure it. We.... According to our whim, we try to help nature's natural process. Who knows? We may be going against nature, for all that. We don't know. Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the value of your health if you do not save him? Dr. Patel: The value of the health is being found out the whole over. Prabhupāda: That is, I am asking you. (laughs) Dr. Patel: You know it better. Why ask me? Modern science is especially to give chemistry and biology. They have learned so much. I mean, practically they have really reached that position which the vaiśeṣika śāstra reached in past. Vaiśeṣika is one of the six darśanas. They also tried to prove the existence of God and God creation by that method, because they also believed in *Vedas*. We are also trying to do the same thing by our own way. And real modern scientists have found out that nothing can happen without God. But you.... In your time, when you were a student, scientists were atheists. Now scientists are not atheists, sir. So I beseech you to remove that idea from you. Prabhupāda: [break] Well, impersonal philosophers are more dangerous than the atheist. Dr. Patel: That you think. Prabhupāda: No, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. Dr. Patel: Let's not discuss about this, not go into it. *Prabhupāda: He said, veda na maniyā bauddha haila nāstika. Vedāśraya bauddha*-vāda nāstika ke adhika. We accept atheist, one who does not believe in the Vedas. Therefore we have rejected the Buddha philosophy. They could not exist in India. But those who are preaching atheism through Vedas, impersonal, they are more dangerous. Dr. Patel: That impersonal preaching is not atheism. Indian man: For example? Prabhupāda: Anyone impersonalist-"God has no form." There are so many rascals. So he has got form to speak against God, and God has no form. This is going on all over the world. He speaks against the God, that "God is not a person." So he is person, and God is not person. Just see their foolishness. He is made by God, and he is a person, and who made him, he is not a person. This is foolishness. Indian man: Yes, there's a good sense in it. Prabhupāda: Everything.... But therefore they are senseless, that "I am person, my father is person..." Indian man: No, my father is not my person. *Prabhupāda: No, no. It is understood that I am person, my father is person, his father is person, and the supreme father is not a person. Just see. If the supreme father is not a person, then wherefrom these personal fathers came here? Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. "Mām"*-this is person. The mūḍhas cannot understand that the supreme father is a person. Therefore Arjuna, at the, when he understood Bhagavad-gītā, he declared that "It is very, very difficult..." (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. "...to understand Your personality. It is very, very difficult." Arjuna has said. And he has accepted Him as person, puruṣaṁ śāśvatam: "You are eternally person." Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramam, puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam ādyam [Bg. 10.12]. These things are there. The real understanding is there. And he said, "This is.... This is accepted by Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Devala." Svayaṁ caiva: "And You are also speaking." Then where is the question of imperson? Hare Kṛṣṇa. And therefore He, Kṛṣṇa, says bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānvān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. "You are person; *I surrender unto You"*-this knowledge comes after many, many births of this impersonalist. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā [Bg. 7.19]. "That great mahātmā is very rare." So one who believes and accepts the Supreme as person, he immediately becomes a mahātmā. Otherwise he remains durātmā. Dr. Patel: Small ātmā. He's a mahātmā. He's a small ātmā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Who believe in that. Prabhupāda: Believe not. Not only believe, but convinced, "Yes, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]." Then he is mahātmā. Dr. Patel: Everything is Vāsudeva. There is nothing excepting God. In that way there is no māyā because māyā is also a part of God. Indian man: In bhakti you surrender. Then you get the jñāna. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: After bhakti you get the jñāna. (Hindi) We mūḍhas, we go on argument, but unless and until we mūḍhas are convinced, we will remain mūḍhas. We can't help it. Prabhupāda: There are big mūḍhas who are never convinced. Dr. Patel: Like me. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, no, listen... Dr. Patel: I will argue with you instead of.... Mahārāja, you see, I have.... Again we had a very great altercation within myself. I was a.... [break] I may tell you, I have studied the Vaiṣṇava's philosophy from various angles. The last two years I have been making a very deep study of it, and I am a student of this theologian philosophy. I think he is absolutely right, that complete surrendering to God by bhakti... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: ...you get complete jñāna. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's it. Dr. Patel: I was.... Before I thought it was not so, but it is so. Indian man: But as you are convinced, but I am not convinced. Dr. Patel: Therefore you read like me and you will be convinced. You study like me, go to temple... Prabhupāda: Then you are still a mūḍha. *Indian man: Yes, I am still a mūḍha. According to you, I am a mūḍha. But according to me, though I am mūḍha, but I don't feel that I am mūḍha. "The man who knows not but who knows not that he knows not, he's a first*-class fool." Like that. Prabhupāda: That is the great problem of the mūḍhas, that he is mūḍha, but he is thinking, "I am not mūḍha." Indian man: Yes, that is the point. Everybody knows it. Dr. Patel: Now, you see, impersonal and personal God, I am talking. I.... Perhaps you may not like. You know, the people.... You see, impersonal God is nothing but the emanation of God. As he said, the brahmajyoti, or what as he once gave me that example, that sun and its rays, if you put a sort of mirror, you see the same sun there through the rays. Don't you? In the same way, you may see God everywhere that way, but real God is sun. Like that, God is there, but His emanation is Brahman. Parabrahman is God; Brahman is jyoti. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Am I right? Prabhupāda: Very good. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya! Dr. Patel: So you go to Brahman but not to Parabrahman. When you try to realize Parabrahman, that is personal God; Brahman is impersonal God. Right, sir? Prabhupāda: And He says, brahmaṇo 'haṁ pratiṣṭhā: "Brahmajyoti is emanating from Me." Brahmajyoti, although impersonal, it is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: So I will one day preach in your place. (laughs) I will.... (Hindi) I was a professor in college, and I have got a knack of explaining everything. Yes. Indian man: So, all right. I will be your śiṣya. *Dr. Patel: And then you become his śiṣya, that's all, indirect śiṣya. For the last two year I have been only reading all the great writings of Vaiṣṇava saints and Vaiṣṇava ācāryas because I read a lot of Śaṅkarācārya and others, and even, even post*-what do you call-Buddhist philosophy, different lines, half a dozen of them. When I read the Vaiṣṇavas' teaching I think that.... Personally, you see, there are so many children, but your own son, you say, "This is my son." The personal relationship, when established, takes you far ahead psychologically. Am I right, sir? That is how personal God... *Prabhupāda: And if you take care of your own son, nobody will criticize you that "Why are you taking care of your own son, not others? Nobody will.... That is natural. That is explained in the Bhagavad.... Samo 'haṁ sarva*-bhūteṣu [Bg. 9.29]. He is equal to everyone. But one who is a devotee, "I take special care." Dr. Patel: "He is in Me, and I am in him." Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: That is why all the great bhaktas, all the great, I mean, say, Narsi Meta(?) or Mirabai, they have worshiped personal God and merged in personal God in toto. Their, that what we call that ego is washed away by the sacred, I mean, this thing of God. Our impersonal philosophers are there, but they are not so well known. That is why he said that personal God and, I mean, worshiping personal God, you are immediately raised to that status from where you will be able to get jñāna. Prabhupāda: [break] There was one teacher in my school, he used to say that "One who is slow to understand, he is slow to forget also." Dr. Patel: Yes, that's a fact. It's really a fact. Prabhupāda: And one who understands quickly and he forgets quickly. So Dr. Patel has understood slowly. So he'll never forget it. Dr. Patel: But I... Indian man: Actually that is a fact. Dr. Patel: I have been very critical within myself. All my.... All my studies, medical, otherwise, I have been always... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes, critical... Dr. Patel: I have studied even geology. Prabhupāda: Critical student, that is... Dr. Patel: Out of just fun, what it is about. I am a student all round. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) [break] It is mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gītā, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena [Bg. 4.34]. Paripraśna is required, but after praṇipāta. Dr. Patel: Surrendering yourself. In school also they say if you develop a sort of a liking for your teacher, a sort of a reverence is developed in you, and then you get knowledge much quicker. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: If you take your teacher to be a servant of yours, then you won't... Prabhupāda: That is Vedic principle. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau [ŚU 6.23]. Then he'll get knowledge. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: That is why guru brahma gurur viṣṇur guruḥ sākṣād maheśvaraḥ. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is fact. Sākṣād dharitvena samasta-śāstraiḥ. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, guru*-kṛṣṇa-krpā: "By the mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa." *Dr. Patel: Guru is a go*-between God and we ourselves. Prabhupāda: Yes, via media, via media. Dr. Patel: He holds your hand and gives that hand to God. That is guru. That is what I think. Am I right in a way? Prabhupāda: Transparent medium. [break] (Hindi) ...realization. *Dr. Patel: Realization is more important. Realization. Unless you realize, all is anti*-thought.(?) Sāksād paro gatim. Prabhupāda: Just like I am seeing you; you are seeing me. Dr. Patel: That is saksad... Prabhupāda: That is... Dr. Patel: Just as you know that hydrogen and oxygen when brought together forms water. But then you make it and see it... Prabhupāda: [break] ...tato bhāvaḥ sādhakānām ayam premnaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ. [break] Vaiṣṇava doesn't make any discrimination that "He is Hindu," "He is Muslim," "He is this and that." He takes everyone as servant of Kṛṣṇa. [break] In India the caste brāhmaṇas criticize me that "Swami Bhaktivedanta is putting Hindu dharma ruin." Yes. *Dr. Patel: Bhagavad*-gītā never.... I think cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Not by birth vibhāgaśaḥ. Prabhupāda: Never. Dr. Patel: It is by guṇa and karma. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Not by position of birth. Prabhupāda: No, it is clearly explained by Nārada Muni, that one has to be judged by the qualification. If the qualification.... Yady anyatrāpi diśetaḥ. If the qualification is somewhere else, then he must be designated by that qualification. Just like.... doctor's.... (Hindi) [break] ...qualification of medical man and you are practicing, that's all. Who is concerned with your caste? *Dr. Patel: So catur*-varṇa is according to guṇa and karma. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Not according to his birth and position of money, birth and wealth. Prabhupāda: And anyone can be trained up to be qualified. That medical science is open to everyone. It is not that "Such and such caste can come here." No, anyone, if you are qualified, that's all. They are accusing me that I am ruining Hinduism, but they have ruined the Hinduism. Dr. Patel: You say, sir, "The Bengalis have ruined Hinduism; I am salvaging it." Another Bengali is salvaging the ruined Hinduism. Bengalis ruined the.... Whole Bengal, half of Bengal turned Islamic and this because of these brāhmaṇas. Prabhupāda: That is everywhere, in Punjab also. Punjab also, the same thing. Dr. Patel: One man was cast out and he was not taken back, so he converted half of the Bengal into Islam. Prabhupāda: No. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is: "Doesn't matter what you are. Now you become trained up. Whatever you are, it doesn't matter." Dr. Patel: But so many Muslims have become very good, I mean, Vaiṣṇava saints. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: There are some examples in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: And I have got many disciples. Dr. Patel: Vṛndāvana, there are two, three of them, I mean, not here, but Arabics. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu converted many Pathans to become Vaiṣṇava. He changed the name. One Pathan was named Rāmadāsa. Just like I have changed Ramjan into Rāma*-rañjana, Attar into Atreya Ṛṣi. Dr. Patel: Atreya. You have got such chelās there? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: No, I think we must.... If.... Now the modern world is getting smaller and smaller and, I mean, the Islamic countries are also getting women with the modern sciences and... Prabhupāda: When I was in, what is called? Tehran. Tehran. Many Muslims were coming. Dr. Patel: They are all Aryans. They are more enlightened people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: In fact, they were the real Aryans. Iran. Prabhupāda: Iran, yes, Aryan. Dr. Patel: That Gāthā (Zoroastrim Scriptures) is practically sixty percent Sanskrit language. Prabhupāda: Gāthā? *Dr. Patel: Gāthā. They have got a.... These Zoroastins read Gāthā just like Bhagavad*-gītā. I have read it. I could understand very easily because it's Sanskrit dialect language. One professor has come from United States. He is staying here in a school of Parsis, and I am the doctor of that school. He said that this is completely Vedic religion. He has studied the Vedic philosophy also. He is teaching theology in some university of United States. He stays here in this.... [break] ...worse than, I think, most... Prabhupāda: But it is democracy. Because we are sinful, we have made a sinful government. It is democracy. Formerly the personal monarchy.... There is no monarchy. It is democracy. *Dr. Patel: It is demon*-cracy. Prabhupāda: Demoncracy, yes. Dr. Patel: Demoncracy. Prabhupāda: Why you accuse government? Government is your election. Dr. Patel: Now she is not going to have any more elections. "Elections are not necessary. People have given me the mandate to rule over them." Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. If the dictator, executive officer, is very nice, religious, then there is no need of this election. Dr. Patel: Oh, she goes to the temples, all right. (laughs) (Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, no. She has got the tendency of spiritual life and she requires improvement. That's all. She has spoken in Chandigarh that "Now we require spiritualism." Hm? Dr. Patel: (Hindi) She is shamming, sir. Shamming. Shamming. She is not truthful to any of her words. Prabhupāda: Hm? Dr. Patel: She is not truthful to what she says. *Prabhupāda: [break] Any circumstances, they can adjust. [break] Oh, Gaṅgā*-sāgara. Śrīdhara: Yes. That's on the fourteenth, tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...stand where there is water then they will manage everything. Water must be there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...Americans to live like this is totally impossible. They'd have to commit suicide. If they can't find the bathroom they won't know what to do. They have to pass stool. But water won't concern them because they don't bother bathing. They need a toilet, though. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...for taking bath in the junction of Ganges and the sea. Just see how people are enthusiastic, coming from long, long distance, Gaṅgā*-sāgara. Gangā means Ganges, and sāgara means the sea. [break] ...it means they keep their lota, you see. [break] ...bathing in this cold water. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...they'd be bothered by the boats being here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't seem to be bothered by these boats. Prabhupāda: No. No. [break] ...childhood I was taking bath. I used to come with my mother. She took bath; I also took bath. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) She'd bring you. [break] Madhya Pradesh? Prabhupāda: [break] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are coming from so far. Rajasthan. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...try to do this you get arrested, living on the street, bathing in the river. [break] Jayapataka is very intelligent. He could understand if we weren't there, we must be here. He looks like Vivekananda with that hat. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) [break] And see how their lota is cleansed. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shiny. Is that a special point, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. That means that how cleansed they are. That is the point. [break] ...is if their lota is so cleansed how they are personally clean. (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 13, 1976, Calcutta Devotees: Haribol. Haribol. Haribol. Haribol. Prabhupāda: [break] How do you like this idea? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At Victoria... Prabhupāda: Anywhere, as we are walking, the saṅkīrtana. [break] ...tiresome. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Walking and chanting, sometimes it... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Little bit. It's a good.... A good place to do it is that Victoria Memorial because there's so many... Prabhupāda: People. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...people there. Prabhupāda: [break] ...places better than this place, then you shall go there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. [break] Madhudviṣa will be there in the morning. He leads the kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's very lively. Jayapatāka: [break] ...twenty years, they've never swept the street. Prabhupāda: Twenty thousand? Jayapatāka: Something like that. "Are sweeping the street." But only a few thousand of that are actually doing it. There's a big scandal. Prabhupāda: Dishonest. They are producing only dishonest men. [break] ...get a boat like this? No. Jayapatāka: Not a dinghy. This is bigger than.... The dinghy is not suitable for rough water. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How big is your boat? As big as that... *Jayapatāka: Forty feet. [break] ...boats in the back about two*-thirds that size. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Jayapatāka: Those two big wooden boats back there? About two*-third that size but not the same exact shape. Those are also big dinghies. [break] ...sagara, Midnapur, Diamond Harbor, that area, where... Prabhupāda: Those places are good places for preaching. Jayapatāka: I went there when I bought the boat. People there are so hungry, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Angry? Jayapatāka: Hungry. Hungry. They're very.... I was eating a banana, I threw the peel on the ground and a boy picked up and ate the peel. I saw. They are so hungry. If we went there and distributed prasādam, so many people would be... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jayapatāka: Enthusiastic. Prabhupāda: So that Consulate General, he has promised to help for getting grains from India, er, from America? Jayapatāka: He's given me the law, numbers, and he said that it's much higher than he is, but he'll give a recommendation if it comes to him. Apart from that, he told me how it's done. Prabhupāda: So why don't you take it very seriously? Jayapatāka: Well, he just told me last week. I heard you were coming, so.... The thing has to be done from Washington, D.C. Prabhupāda: So our men can do it. You advise them to do the needful. Jayapatāka: [break] Caitanya Maṭha's devotees are from Midnapur. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. And Diamond Harbor. Jayapatāka: And most of Mādhava Mahārāja's are from Assam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatāka: All Assam, the pūjārī, everything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have Assamese? Jayapatāka: All Assam, pūjārī, everything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like Nepal? Jayapatāka: No, they're a little bit stronger... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...nese considered to be Aryans? I don't think so. Prabhupāda: They are Mongolians. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was saying that to Jayapatāka, that they're Mongolians. So the same criticism that everyone has said against you. Prabhupāda: What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That you are making mlecchas and yavanas brāhmaṇas. I think that that Mongoloid race is also considered like that. Prabhupāda: I do not follow what you say. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, my point is that they're always feeling that you are creating brāhmaṇas amongst such low*-class persons. So I see that they... Prabhupāda: If I am creating brāhmaṇas, how he is low class? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we don't agree that he is low class. Prabhupāda: No, no. If he says we are creating brāhmaṇa, then where is low class? From logical point of view. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, from low class to high class, he says. *Prabhupāda: Actually, everyone is Brahman. So from this conditioned life of non*-Brahman, if we create Brahman, what is the wrong there? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Original position. Prabhupāda: Hm. Ah. [break] Manipuri. Jayapatāka: Many Manipuri people are coming to Māyāpur now. Many. They wear a special type of uniform, the women, one pinkish dress. Prabhupāda: For seeing our temple? Jayapatāka: They are going everywhere. The Bengalis are going mainly to our temple. But they've come so far, they see everywhere, naturally. But also our temple without fail. [break] The Nabadwip Commissioner came and he was so impressed. Now he is thinking.... He is trying to.... He is a little bit greedy that so many things are going in Māyāpur. He is trying to think how he can include Māyāpur within Nabadwip municipality. Prabhupāda: How it can be done? Jayapatāka: That he is failing to do, but he is thinking, anyway. He told me. So many taxes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Material conception. Jayapatāka: Bribe. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] We should return now. Prabhupāda: Hm. Jayapatāka: [break] ...from Vrndavana has composed some Sanskrit poems for Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: Which Śāstrījī? Jayapatāka: That you preached to last year at the festival time. There were seven śāstrīs, four of which came to Māyāpur, three of which blooped. One is still left. He is very eager to become initiated. He is very hard working and sincere. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What does he do there? Jayapatāka: He is teaching Sanskrit to the devotees. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Jayapatāka: He is teaching the meter, how to chant them, to all the Western devotees and to the... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who's here? Jayapatāka: I never had time to go. Bhāvananda knows. [break] ...the Bengali language also. We have one copy at Māyāpur. If we have a festival here in Calcutta with a Bengali film, many people can appreciate it. Of course, English they also.... That first paṇḍāl, we didn't have any movie then. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayapatāka: Those first paṇḍāls we never had a cinema. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jayapatāka: Only kīrtana. (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 15, 1976, Calcutta Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Real ones agree. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think this is their hospital here. Prabhupāda: This is? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of them, yes. I think they have.... This is... Prabhupāda: [break] These trees are brought from somewhere else. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they weren't here last time. Prabhupāda: No. [break] Just see how they are doing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Garden. It was a jungle. Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Helping to load the jeep. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...for foretelling, lāvanyaṁ keśa*-dhāraṇam. So all the young boys, they are keeping big, big hair. That is foretold in Bhāgavata, five thousand years, "In Kali-yuga, they will think by keeping long hair they become more beautiful." (laughter) [break] Madhudviṣa: In Kṛṣṇa's time everyone had long hair also. Prabhupāda: No. Madhudviṣa: No? Well, Kṛṣṇa did, Balarāma did, and the cowherd boys. Prabhupāda: We don't find. That is normal. Kṛṣṇa can do anything. You cannot imitate Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Also... Madhudviṣa: No, it seemed like that was the style during those days, long hair. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Also from the pictures we see that the residents of Nabadwip and Māyāpura seemed to have long hair, the householders. *Prabhupāda: Then why this statement is there, lāvaṇyaṁ keśa*-dhāraṇam? If it is approved, why Bhāgavata criticizing? Harikeśa: Was long hair a sign of beauty in those days? Prabhupāda: It was not meant for everyone. Harikeśa: Kṣatriyas. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...stairs first? Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: [break] ...you were coming to Australia, we started to put in a chair lift up the stairs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: Last year you asked us to put in one lift, so we had the company on the line, one nice lift. It goes on the side of the stairs. You sit on it and it goes right up. Prabhupāda: It is already fixed? Madhudviṣa: Well, it can be fixed very easily. We have the contractor lined up. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's enough reason to go to Australia. Madhudviṣa: Oh, yes, you don't have to walk up any stairs if you come to Australia. Prabhupāda: That's nice. (chuckles) Madhudviṣa: And your garden is all finished. Prabhupāda: Finished? Madhudviṣa: This much garden is all finished. It is all, I mean, complete, with flowers and grass and trees. Prabhupāda: Oh. Madhudviṣa: We are growing our own flowers in the back now. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Madhudviṣa: We planted five thousand carnation plants, so we will supply all our own flowers from now on. (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 16, 1976, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: They'll never give us. Jayapatāka: They're willing to give; they just want a higher price. Prabhupāda: What is the use? Jayapatāka: [break] He wants six thousand rupees. (Prabhupāda laughs) He has got three and a half bigas, about twenty thousand rupees... Prabhupāda: We don't want it. [break] Jayapatāka: This is about four feet. It used to be ten feet high. This used to be ten feet high. [break] ...the top during the monsoon. But according to the Ganges level the water is going up and down. Prabhupāda: Now what is the depth? Jayapatāka: It's about twelve feet now. Prabhupāda: That's all right. [break] This is not our land? Jayapatāka: This sugarcane is our land, but this is not our land. That's why here the top became narrow. [break] ...here the one step with the pathway coming up to here and one step over there. [break] ...know this height was all right because you requested to lower the height. Then we'll put a stairs going up and over there. Over by these steps, then going up and over the hill, there will be a stairway. So then we can make a nice sitting platform with a shade area. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants to know if this height is all right. Prabhupāda: This height? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This height as compared to the ground and everything. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is all right. Jayapatāka: And we'll landscape on this now, planting trees and things. Prabhupāda: And how this side? You can make it also slope. [break] ...clear. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, perfectly clear. [break] ...cannot bathe. We'll have to make more. [break] Prabhupāda: This land will be utilized for walking? Jayapatāka: We're going to put trees and things and make it beautiful. At one time you suggested that there be cottages placed here. Prabhupāda: No. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Trees are very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatāka: So we'll make this a park. Prabhupāda: Trees. Jayapatāka: Those trees which can grow on low land, they can be put here. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...for trees, do it very nice, different types of fruits and... Jayapatāka: [break] ...suggested that for this year's Ḍola Pūrṇimā we put hutments here for the devotees. Prabhupāda: Why? Jayapatāka: Just temporary. Prabhupāda: Why? Jayapatāka: Grass, for housing. Prabhupāda: No, there are so many rooms. Jayapatāka: There's not.... Rooms only can hold about three hundred devotees. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I thought there are already people living in the rooms, Jayapatāka. Bhavānanda: Some of the rooms are occupied for handloom, have big looms in them. Prabhupāda: So why not have rooms that side? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda wants rooms there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you've been saying this a number of times. Prabhupāda: Yes. That side. [break] ...unnecessary expenditure to have some cottage and again spoil it. Don't spend. It is better spend for rooms like that, that side, wall and rooms, and this should be used for only trees. Jayapatāka: Walkway. Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. Within the trees, walkway. That will be very nice. Don't spend unnecessarily for cottage. Jayapatāka: For this year there is no time to make those. Prabhupāda: Then as much as possible you can do. What is there? Engage hundred workers and it will be done. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we don't have the money to do. Prabhupāda: I will give you money. If money is the only question, I will give you money. You can immediately begin. Bhavānanda: We will immediately start. Prabhupāda: Yes, cottage.... But make it little higher. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. If it floods.... There should be a plinth. Prabhupāda: Plinth should be higher. Jayapatāka: See, right now there's no bricks available in the market. Prabhupāda: Why? Jayapatāka: Because they just started producing bricks in January, December 15th, and all the government has advance bricks. We wanted bricks.... Right now it's very little... Prabhupāda: There are so many brick fields. Jayapatāka: But they've just started production. Prabhupāda: Just inquire. If it is available you can do. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, inquire Jayapatāka. Jayapatāka: I'll inquire. Because we just ordered four thousand bricks. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapatāka: We ordered four thousand bricks. It took two weeks to get them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but now it's later. Prabhupāda: You can make a big tent here, big tent. So people may come: women tent and men tent. There is no need of rooms. That will be nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where? Right up here? Prabhupāda: Yes, on this land. Just like here you can have a big tent, there a big tent. Devotee (1): For the devotees to stay in? Prabhupāda: Woman tent and men tent. Bhavānanda: We have enough rooms for the women. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. Jayapatāka: We're going to make a women's tent... Prabhupāda: No, no. You can have a tent. If there is extra men they can live in this tent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing there are bricks available, should they try to build? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, immediately. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's better. Jayapatāka: We can start, but I'm doubtful whether we'll get enough bricks to finished. That's only my point, if I start and don't finish it... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But there's no harm. Prabhupāda: There is no harm. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda said let's do what we can do. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Begin. Prabhupāda: [break] ..."victorious flag," "Jayapatāka." [break] ...to walk in this place. Very nice. Oh, yes. Sun is rising. [break] ...dolls? Jayapatāka: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Jayapatāka: All the dollmakers have gone to Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Oh. All right. [break] ...bricks are available you can begin immediately. Jayapatāka: [break] Yes. Prabhupāda: So you can make tent here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, this is better place than up there. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can make tent here. Jayapatāka: We put much dirt here. This land is a bit raised now. We can just open them out here. Prabhupāda: All right. Anywhere you can.... Here, you can make tent here, here. Just near the... Jayapatāka: Some sabjis are growing there. We can make some place. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): This place is already open. Prabhupāda: [break] ...and people can live there. [break] ...very nice, facing east. Very good. Jayapatāka: [break] ...are the handlooms. The dispensary is here. Then here men are living. Then, from this side over, the women are living. Prabhupāda: That's ni... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Separate. Jayapatāka: Separate. Then the prasādam pavilion and kitchen are there. Prabhupāda: [break] ...dispensary I can give you some formulas for general diseases. One has got little fever; you give that mista. One has got some sores; you give some ointment, without any doctor's advice. Bhavānanda: We need, Śrīla Prabhupāda. For all those little things we need. Prabhupāda: Yes, I will give you so many formulas. Bhavānanda: For boil also? Prabhupāda: Anything, all common disease. You have got cough? Take this mista. Just first of all find out what are the general complaints. Jayapatāka: For several.... For some time practically no one has been bed case, but little things, cuts, bruise, cough, cold. Prabhupāda: Yes. Many formulas I can give you. Bhavānanda: There is one woman from England. She is in charge of our dispensary. I can send her by today? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: You can give her the... Prabhupāda: [break] ...mixture. Stock medicine that is called. [break] ...consulting doctor, without any harm, you can give. Just like homeopathic. So now these are vacant. Why these doors are not closed? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one is utilized. Jayapatāka: This is our spinning room, workroom. They just left it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are hand loom departments, the whole.... How many rooms? Bhavānanda: Five rooms. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Five or six. Jayapatāka: Nine rooms? No. Prabhupāda: [break] ...that's nice. Very good. [break] ...surprised that "In temple, why handloom? What kind of temple it is?" They will criticize like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Prabhupāda: They'll.... They get one point: "Oh, here is some fault." And then, "They're not worshiping? They are going handloom?" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Here is the moon. There is one dark spot." Prabhupāda: But the rascals do not know Kṛṣṇa says, svakarmana tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. Whatever he knows, he can work on it, and that way he can get perfection, provided he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted. Otherwise people think, misunderstand, that "They are parasites." Why we should be parasite? We should work for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. It is not that because sannyāsī and brahmacārī, you'll be able. No. Everyone. Svakarmaṇā. Kṛṣṇa says, svakarmaṇā: "Whatever talent you have got, you can serve Me and be perfect." That is the program. They are preparing cloth for the devotees, not for business. Therefore he is serving Kṛṣṇa. To serve devotee and to serve Kṛṣṇa, there is no difference. [break] So proper watering is going on? Jayapatāka: Actually these places are very far from water. We have to put some other line to make it very efficient. Now they're just taking by bucket. Prabhupāda: No, you can join some pipeline. Make a water storge, and from pipeline it will be supplied everywhere. Make water storage on the roof, on the roof. Jayapatāka: We have.... On that corner room there in the kitchen, that's one water storage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatāka: That supplies. Prabhupāda: So by pump store water and by pipe distribute. Jayapatāka: This is what the Gargamuni's money, as we get, we're using for these programs. Prabhupāda: Why it is being broken again? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why are these rooms being broken? Jayapatāka: This is.... We're putting on the other side the doorway. You commented that "Why the door should be facing inside?" Prabhupāda: No, no. No inside store. Jayapatāka: It's facing outside. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can... Jayapatāka: It's already finished. We're just going to... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, these are stores. Jayapatāka: Bookstore and... Bhavānanda: Yes. We're going to make a small entrance door on this side. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cloth store? Bhavānanda: Cloth and bookstore. Jayapatāka: Many people request that we sell our cloth because they say they don't get such nice cloth in the market. Prabhupāda: Yes, bookstore, prasāda store and this.... Yes. Prasāda. Make five. Jayapatāka: Right now we have four stores, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapatāka: We have four fronts. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On that side? Jayapatāka: There are books, cloth, prasāda, then? Prabhupāda: And.... Books, prasādam, and cloth. (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about mṛdaṅga? Prabhupāda: And mṛdaṅga? Why not appoint one mṛdaṅga maker? He can sell outside, and whatever he makes we shall take. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we need them for America. Prabhupāda: One utensils, karatāla seller. Jayapatāka: I can.... We can have our own people. Just as the store owners are making outside, we can make outside with them. Prabhupāda: Why outside? We shall make here. Simply you require the manufacturer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can manufacture brass items? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jayapatāka: To make karatālas... To make mṛdaṅgas doesn't require much capital, but to make karatālas requires a lot of capital because the metal is very expensive. Prabhupāda: We shall invest. If we get good manufacturer, we shall invest. What is the capital wanted? Jayapatāka: About four, five thousand rupees. Prabhupāda: Oh, we shall invest. Jayapatāka: The gurukula is living on this side. And they're having classes in this original house. [break] (laughter) Prabhupāda: Bidi. Jayapatāka: Many people want to open up a shop. They'll pay for the... Prabhupāda: [break] ...tulasī... Jayapatāka: Our land. Prabhupāda: So why not employ one man to manfacture tulasī beads? Yes. There are many experts. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have to live here as devotee? Jayapatāka: No. Prabhupāda: No, let them manufacture. That will make him devotee. Bhavānanda: On the right here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is our nursery for our landscaping. Prabhupāda: So this is nice. It is very.... It will be very nice to live in these rooms. What is the cost of this kattan? Jayapatāka: Of? Prabhupāda: What do we pay? *Jayapatāka: Bed, the small bed, about twenty*-five, thirty rupees. Prabhupāda: That's nice. *Jayapatāka: And the bigger ones, a full man size, about forty*-five. Prabhupāda: Very good. It is nice. Jayapatāka: That's solid wood with mingo(?) top or turta(?) top. Bhavānanda: [break] ...stay here. Prabhupāda: How many boys to stay in one room? Bhavānanda: Two boys to three boys, depending on their size. Little ones, three and four, and the bigger boys, ten, twelve years old, two. Prabhupāda: [break] ...rooms. Bhavānanda: These are the remnants of old dioramas that we had. Prabhupāda: That means you have broken them? Bhavānanda: They were broken. Prabhupāda: Huh? Broken by? Jayapatāka: Time. They were clay. They started just falling.... No doll maker is here. After one year they started to fall apart. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is this last years' exhibit? Bhavānanda: From three years ago. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three years ago. Last years' are still good? Prabhupāda: No, they break. *Bhavānanda: Some. The Pañca*-tattva and... Jayapatāka: They should have been put in the Ganges. Prabhupāda: No, how it breaks? They keep it for years, and you broke them? How you...? How you broke? Automatically? Jayapatāka: No, because there was no place to store them, by moving them and moving them from different rooms then they gradually broke. Prabhupāda: So there are so many rooms. You could not make any store? Jayapatāka: First they were in the building to here. When they moved it then many became damaged. And somebody came in and vandaled them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapatāka: Somebody came in and destroyed them. Prabhupāda: Somebody came in? Jayapatāka: Vandalized. Prabhupāda: You are so careful. That is the defect. Yes. Somebody broke it. [break] We have got so many enemies and you did not take care of it. [break] Where these.... When these pictures will begin? Jayapatāka: Over on that side we're putting the stones. The stones should be finished about in one week. Then we're going to start the pictures. Already there's a few frames they're ready to start on that side. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very nice how they, the way they're putting stones... Prabhupāda: [break] Begin immediately. Otherwise... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You won't finish. Prabhupāda: Why you are spoiling space by making these arches? You could have used the whole place. Jayapatāka: Having the arches, when they're all painted it will be very attractive. Prabhupāda: [break] ...attractive, it is going to be very expensive. Jayapatāka: Each arch cost only fifteen rupees. Prabhupāda: All right. [break] ...will be written on the arches? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can see down there how they have done. Jayapatāka: They're putting a very nice stone. Rose quartz. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that.... The stones and everything cost fifteen rupees? Jayapatāka: Well... Prabhupāda: [break] Vandalism, no? Then what is to be done? [break] ...big doors, why it is open? This should be open when car is going. Otherwise not. Jayapatāka: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapatāka: I think he opened it for Your Divine Grace to go. Prabhupāda: No, close it. Simply... Jayapatāka: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Who is in charge? (Bengali) Bhavānanda: It's normally closed, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...spending money unnecessarily. And no... Jayapatāka: This wall was.... We only got the money for building all this a month and a half ago. Then this wall is just plastered. It takes two months to dry the wall. If you paint before two months, then the paint will come off. Therefore, we're giving this two months. We made the arch and now we're going to start the painting. [break] ...immediately paint it right after plastering and the paint doesn't stick. We thought that by doing this the wall would be so beautiful and impressive that the pictures will be more accented. Prabhupāda: Do it. [break] ...foolish person in the whole world. You allow vandals to come and break your dolls. [break] ...give them protection, even to the dolls. [break] ...made with so much labor and you allowed the vandals to come in? Jayapatāka: Actually, I think it was our own children. Prabhupāda: Huh? Anyway, why did you not keep it properly? [break] ...painting will begin? Jayapatāka: Begin right away, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This week. Prabhupāda: These arches will be filled up with stones? Jayapatāka: Yes. But there are so many arches that are already cleared. We have enough to start a few.... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa said that Ramesvara was going to send the funds. We have enough money to start a few arches as long as his funds come soon. But if he delays with the funds, then it will be difficult because we don't have very much money now. Prabhupāda: What is this cottage? Jayapatāka: These are for making gūr. Prabhupāda: Oh. This is our land? Jayapatāka: No, this is our night guardsman. Prabhupāda: [break] ...the gūr? Jayapatāka: We use it the whole year for the sweetening in the different preparations of prasāda. Prabhupāda: We use ourself. Jayapatāka: Yes. We don't... Prabhupāda: Sell. Jayapatāka: No. We don't have surplus yet. Prabhupāda: [break] You also? (laughter) Jayapatāka: Arch or anything be put on this gate? Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayapatāka: Should we put any little arch on this gate? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Later on. It is not very urgent. [break] Satadhanya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Other one? Jayapatāka: Exit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...arrange it so they don't know how to use it. They get caught. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom you got it? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where did you get it? Jayapatāka: This was manufactured in Calcutta. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Special made? Specially made. Bhavānanda: This is American subway. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Bhavānanda: Engineering. To keep people going in single file. Jayapatāka: There's no other door like this exactly. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In India. It's the only one in India. Bhavānanda: Otherwise the people come and crowd up at the exit, and then, when we open it up, everyone falls down. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is.... [break] ...place to be utilized? Bhavānanda: This will be playpen. This will be for the children, the little children to stay. Prabhupāda: Oh? Why? Bhavānanda: So many times there are always little babies. Their mothers are working, and they get into trouble, so this will be a nice area for them to play around in. Prabhupāda: [break] ...abide by these rules? Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...such hall like this. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have never seen such a big hall like this anywhere else, for eating, prasādam hall, I mean. Prabhupāda: Railway station. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Bombay railway station. Yes. Bombay railway station is little higher, that's all. Like this. Jayapatāka: The sound in here is pretty good. Bhavānanda: [break] This is for.... We use for soaking paddy. Jayapatāka: During the festival days for putting cooked food in big quantities. Prabhupāda: Where? Jayapatāka: In these. Bhavānanda: A man who has joined us, he has given us the tempo. Prabhupāda: It is work...? Jayapatāka: It needs to be repaired. Prabhupāda: Oh, then don't take it. Don't take it. Kānā goru brāhmaṇa ke dāna.(?) You do not understand Bengali? "Blind cow given in charity to a brāhmaṇa." When it is useless-"Charity. All right." Jayapatāka: If the man lives here, what to do? He's a devotee. Prabhupāda: You may go with your, this car, or throw it in the street. Don't take all these charities. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's that verse about the puffed rice when it blows away. Prabhupāda: Yes, "Govindāya namaḥ." Purify, govindāya namaḥ. Don't take it. Simply immediately throw it in the street. It is obnoxious. Immediately break the whole thing, and, part by part, sell it. But that is not possible. Ask him to first of all get it outside and then leave here. Don't allow this nonsense. [break] ...stand this space. Why? Why should we allow it? Useless. Jayapatāka: We were thinking about whether we should repair it or not. Prabhupāda: No. You should not take anything which requires repairing. Don't accept. [break] ...in the meantime. [break] (Bengali) It has not worked for three hundred years. (Bengali) You do not engage them for cleansing? Bhavānanda: These boys are in charge. Prabhupāda: What is that in charge? Why it is so dirty? Why it is so dirty? Devotee (3): We clean every day. Prabhupāda: Every day? Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: So why it is not clean today? Devotee (3): We clean it in the evenings before we leave. The people living upstairs, they pass through here. This is the entrance into their living quarters, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You clean in the evening and in the morning it is so dirty? Devotee (3): In the afternoon or in the evening, early. Prabhupāda: You clean in the evening and in the morning it is so dirty? Devotee (3): Well, they're passing through here to their living quarters. Prabhupāda: And therefore it should be dirty. Then what for cleaning? Just see. What is the cleaning? You clean in the evening; *in the morning it is dirty. Is that very good reason? Clean. Engage them. [break] ...you are chanting, śrī*-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nana-śrṅgara-tan-man..., tan-mandira-mārjanādau **. This is all temple. This is not ordinary hotel, free hotel. If they cannot take care as temple, they must go away. [break] ...eating, sleeping. That's all, not working. See that they do not make it a free hotel for eating and sleeping. Don't allow this. It should be clean. Why in the evening? Every morning it should be clean and washed and mopped. (Bengali) Jayapatāka: Generally they chant the japa till about 7:15. Prabhupāda: And therefore everything should be.... They must give up japa; first of all clean. That is japa, first. In the name of japa and dozing and everything is unclean. This nonsense should not be allowed. Ask them, "Stop japping. First of all clean. Then japa, make japa." This is a plea, "japa." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is a plea, excuse. Jayapatāka: Generally at 7:15 they start cleaning. Prabhupāda: No, no. I see. Why it is not clean? It must have been clean. [break] (Bengali) Yes, but I don't see they are working at the gate. [break] ...theoretical. Jayapatāka: They make every day the rice for the day. Prabhupāda: So where they are doing? Today is no rice required? Jayapatāka: They start when the schedule starts at 7:30. Prabhupāda: What is the time now? Jayapatāka: They're all waiting for you to... Prabhupāda: Very punctual, 7:30. Not waiting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're chanting japa. Prabhupāda: Who is japping? Please be careful that this idle class in the name of japa... Jayapatāka: There's no way here. Prabhupāda: So which way we shall go? Jayapatāka: Back on the road again. [break] Beet vegetable. Prabhupāda: That's all. [break] ...made. This is not washed? (Bengali) [break] This growth stopped? Jayapatāka: Here is the handloom production. Prabhupāda: What service they do? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What does that man do? Bhavānanda: He weeds all of the hedges under Tapomaya. *Prabhupāda: So why they are drying? They should water it. [break] (Bengali) They are doing rightly. There are so many men. Why this should be not taken care of? [break] ...not indulge to give shelter persons*-in the name of so-called japa they take advantage of free boarding and lodging. You should be very careful. Everyone should be, according to capacity, must be engaged to some work. Don't allow this stupidity. [break] ...plants are grown properly you get so many fruits. They are drying. There is so much space. You can get the sak and the fruit also. Sudāmā: [break] We made vegetable from that stem. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very good vegetable. [break] ...and cycle. Bhavānanda: That is one of our boys from Italy. He is working in the gośālā. Prabhupāda: Oh. That is not utilized. (Bengali) (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 16, 1976, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: If he does not read *Bhāgavatam*, then he remains a rascal. Hariśauri: Anything apart from the *Vedas* is not really knowledge. *Prabhupāda: No. May be some fragmental knowledge, but if one wants full knowledge in life, then he must read Bhāgavatam. Bhagavad*-gītā is the preliminary ABCD, and then let him read Bhāgavatam. They have been taught like that. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ. They are passing as great leader for giving men wrong direction and spoil the life. He cannot save himself and he can spoil himself very nicely. Hariśauri: People's minds are so flickering. There's so much disturbance. *Prabhupāda: The mind is the first creation for material enjoyment. From the mind, senses are created, five senses for knowledge*-gathering and five senses for working, and five airs within the body. In this way the mind and fifteen. This is called ṣoḍāśa upacāra, sixteen. And then the ingredients, pañca-mahā-bhūta. Then intelligence, ahaṅkāra, false ego. These twenty-four, combination. And ātmā, jīva, and then Kṛṣṇa-twenty-six. The twenty-six combination is this body, mind, self, soul, Supersoul, everything. So I am ready. Hariśauri: I think it's just a little early yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hariśauri: Just a little early. It's still dark. I think ten minutes should be all right. Has this been used? *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...is in ignorance. Combination of matter and soul, moving animals. Some of them are standing as trees and plant, and some of them are moving. Where is the science to study? What is your value of knowledge? Hm? If they do not know the fundamental things, then what is the value of their knowledge? Simply observation, superficial, externally. There is good scope. They are receiving these books. We should take chance of preaching this Bhāgavatam, and the classes should be held especially.... No, the religious classes are already there. Let them study Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad*-gītā. And they will accept it. They are not fools. Simply we have to introduce it. The Western people, they are not fools, but misguided. So you take the charge of guiding them; *then Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will be successful. They will appreciate, they will take it up and reform, and their life will be successful. And if they utilize their intelligence how to reduce population and kill child within the womb and "There is no soul in the womb. When they come out then the soul becomes"*-what is this nonsense? Unless there is soul, how it becomes manifest? Hariśauri: It's obvious. If the body is growing within the womb, there must be life there. Prabhupāda: The same process is going on from the very beginning. A body is formed and it develops. The child is born.... The same process is going on. How do you say there is no soul? If there is no soul, how it has developed within the womb? Such rascals, they are passing on as big scientists. What is the reason they don't believe that there is no soul? Harikeśa: They have really no argument. Prabhupāda: Just see. All dogmatic. All dogmatic foolishness they are propagating, and it is going on in the name of vijñāna, science. Hariśauri: If they admitted the existence... *Prabhupāda: Vijñāna should be enunciated, vigata*-jñāna. Vigata, you understand vigata? Vigata means lost. So vijñāna, you can make two meanings. Viśiṣṭa-jñāna. Viśiṣṭa, vi means.... Viśiṣṭa means a full explained knowledge. You can make this meaning. And another meaning you can do. Vi means vigata, lost. So vigata-jñāna. Their vijñāna means vigata-jñāna, lost of all knowledge. That is the word given in Bhagavad-gītā, māyayāprahṛta-jñānaḥ. This is vijñāna. You can explain in this way also. māyayāpa.... māyā has taken away their knowledge, and that is going on as vijñāna, science. māyā has made them rascal, and they are presenting themselves as the man of advanced knowledge. A rascal is representing himself as advanced in knowledge. That is the defect of Kali-yuga. Hariśauri: Advanced demoniac knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Advanced demon. Actually they are advanced demons, asura, asurī*-bhāvam āśritaḥ, being infected with the contamination of atheism, godlessness. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa.... (chants japa) Hariśauri: They're actually very expert at avoiding the real issues. Prabhupāda: That is.... A child can also do that. That is not expert. A child can advance in foolishness without any guidance. If the child touches fire and if somebody says, "This is advancement of knowledge," then imagine what is the position. Similarly, all these rascals, they are endeavoring. Just like Hiranyakasipu. He endeavored all through how to become immortal, which is impossible. But he advanced in that foolishness. Hiranyakasipu was such a big demon, his only idea was that "The devatās, they attack us sometimes. But now I shall attack them and plunder them. But because I am now practically immortal, what they will do? They cannot kill me. So I will go on with my demonic activities, and then they cannot do anything." This is his foolishness. He did not know that he's the greatest foolishness that he was trying to become immortal. When it was said by Brahmā that "No, no, it is not possible," still, he expected that "I shall become immortal." Brahmā flatly said, "No, no, this is not possible. I am not immortal. How can I give you immortality?" But he would not hear even Brahmā. He thought that, "In an indirect way I shall befool this man, Brahmā." "All right, sir, then give me this benediction." "What is that?" "I'll not die in the land." "All right." "Not in the water." "Yes." "Not in the air." "No, yes." So he thought that "The three things finished. Then where shall I die? There are three things only, land, water, sky. So he has given me benediction I shall not die anywhere of these three. So I have cheated now." And then "I shall not die in daytime." "Yes." "I shall not die in nighttime." But māyā dictated that there is another space or another place between day and night. (laughs) That he forgot. That is called sandhyā. That is accepted. But he forgot that. And Kṛṣṇa is more intelligent. He.... Hiraṇyakaśipu was not killed in daytime or nighttime. He was killed in the sandhyā. And so far land, sky, and water is concerned, that also was played with tricks, that He killed him on the lap. You cannot say it is land; you cannot say it is sky, you cannot say it is water. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind that His devotee, Brahma, has given him this benediction.... Without touching all those points. Hiranyakasipu could not accuse Brahma that "Sir, you have cheated me." "No. Whatever you wanted, I have given you. You have cheated yourself. You do not know that your knowledge is imperfect. You cannot make it perfect. So that is your folly. But so far I am concerned, whatever you wanted, I said, 'Yes. Yes. Yes.' But I said also that 'In spite of all this, you'll never live.' That is not possible. But, you fool, you did not take care of it. So in spite of cunningness, you remained a fool. You thought that you are very intelligent, cunning. 'I am now fully equipped; nobody can kill me.' But I said that it is not possible. I never cheated you. You cannot say that I have cheated you." Hariśauri: It's just like in the law. They try to make the law so perfect that no one can get around it. But always there is some very smart lawyer who finds a loophole. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Big lawyer means to find out fault with the present law. That is big lawyer. [break] ...to be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is.... (laughs) But these rascals are trying to be more intelligent. Therefore they are called rascals, fools, mūḍha. Harikeśa: Moghāśā. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Moghāśā mogha*-karmaṇo mogha-jñāna-vicetasaḥ [Bg. 9.12]. [break] .... Kṛṣṇa says simple thing, "You surrender unto Me. You'll get all protection." "No, no. That is not possible. I must do according to my own whims. Why shall I surrender?" "All right, go on. I'll give you facility for executing your whims. You'll get it. You do. Try your..." This is going on. Kṛṣṇa is giving good advice. He'll not accept it. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind, "All right, you do in your own way. I shall give you all facility." This is going.... That facility is māyā, his mind and māyā. He is desiring. That mind is also given by māyā, so that he can punish him very severely. So māyā has given us mind: "Now you go on desiring. After desiring, desiring, I will give you facility." Hariśauri: Mind is an agent of punishment. Prabhupāda: Yes, this material mind. You see a madman. He is also acting in his mind. The mind is polluted; he is acting differently. Mind is there, but it is covered by some infection. Therefore a madman is thinking this way, that way, this way, that way. That's all. Hariśauri: Constant anxiety. Prabhupāda: Useless. Killing himself. Hariśauri: Sometimes a person who goes mad, they have to put them in a padded cell so that they don't harm themselves. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise he will create disadvantage to others. This is the cell*-whole material world. You keep yourself within this cell and go on with your madness of mind. Still, Vedic instruction is there that if you do this way, then you go to that planet. If you do this way, then you go to here. Still, there is good. But within that, Kṛṣṇa is saying, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām [Bg. 9.25], "But you can come to Me also." But he will not take that instruction. Hariśauri: Coming to Kṛṣṇa means they have to give up all their own personal desires. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is there; simply we have to accept it. If we don't accept it, we suffer. What can be done? If you accept the path of going to hell in spite of higher authorities' instruction, then who can save me? That is going on. Hariśauri: Rascal. Prabhupāda: He is thinking he has become very intelligent that he can deceive God, deceive spiritual master and be happy. He does not know that he can neither deceive God or His representative, guru. That is not possible. But he is thinking like that. And he is being put into suffering condition. Just like ordinary thieves and rogues. They think, "I am deceiving government." But government has got so many agents that he will be arrested. But this sinful government may not be so expert, but how he can deceive the government of Kṛṣṇa? That is not possible. Harikeśa: There's undercover agents in everybody. Prabhupāda: Everywhere, every direction. Hariśauri: The land, the sky, the... Prabhupāda: Everything. Hariśauri: Sun, moon, everything is witness. Prabhupāda: They are bearing the witness. And especially He is sitting within the heart of everyone, īśvaraḥ sarva... How can you deceive Him? Hariśauri: Kṛṣṇa knows more about what's going on than we do. *Prabhupāda: Anumantā upadṛṣṭā. Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata [Bg. 13.3]. How these rascals think that "I can deceive God"? *Harikeśa: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna. Prabhupāda: Hm. mayācyuta. *Harikeśa: Vigata. Vigata*-jñāna. *Prabhupāda: Vigata*-jñāna, yes. Vijñāna. Hariśauri: Like children playing, they think that they've become a king or this or that, and they're completely absorbed. Prabhupāda: Why children? The children, the father also. Harikeśa: I think they're all ready. (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 17, 1976, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: ...He'll change everything, all sinful activities. Jayapatāka: The devotees like when the loudspeakers are playing Hare Kṛṣṇa 'cause then the work... Prabhupāda: That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...can hear any temple bells from the other temples during the ārati. I don't hear them having ārati. Do they? Maybe they don't have enough men there to ring the bells. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: [break] Yes. [Break] ...went to Krishnanagar yesterday and he's found bricks, so we can begin... Prabhupāda: Immediately. Jayapatāka: He can supply two and half lakhs of bricks within one month. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jayapatāka: We should give the... We have two life members there. I've done this before. Give the price for one lakh of bricks in advance and we get twenty rupees off. That way they'll give you the full supply. So in one month we can get all the bricks. Prabhupāda: So why they want advance? Jayapatāka: Because then they get the twenty rupees off. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Per thousand? Jayapatāka: They want advance because they have so many expenses for labors and they just started producing. It's helps them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty rupees per thousand? Jayapatāka: That means over two and a half thousand you save five thousand rupees. Prabhupāda: So we have to advance two and a half thousand? Jayapatāka: No. We have to advance about thirty thousand. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To save five thousand you have to advance thirty thousand. Jayapatāka: You get all the supply within one month. Prabhupāda: No, no. Then they have no money. They want to manufacture with our money. Is that? Jayapatāka: Well, then they'll supply at full price. *Prabhupāda: But if they cannot supply, why shall I give advance? You take... You give us supply and take money. [break] ...take. Advance you take. Whatever he will be able to supply, say, within a week, you take one*-fourth advance. Then take payment immediately as you supply. [break] ...of this? Bhavānanda: The... He works in the gośālā, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So what he will do? Bhavānanda: He's going to get it out of here today. Jayapatāka: He... [break] Prabhupāda: And engage it for Kṛṣṇa's service. If you are getting that for nothing, why not? [break] ...bhavan ke kana gulugar.(?) Jayapatāka: Would you like to see the gośālā or the boat today, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Which side is boat? Straight? Bhavānanda: Boat is at Hulor Ghat. Prabhupāda: Boat is worth seeing. (laughter) [break] Jayapatāka: He's the only one who gives out fish prasāda. Even the ricksaw drivers don't take his prasāda. They say it is unclean. [break] Prabhupāda: Lady? Jayapatāka: In this house here. There's one lady lives here. One of the devotees was walking. He said she hears the kīrtana at night. One widow. Prabhupāda: [break] ...bus came here. Bhavānanda: Down this road, turns here. Prabhupāda: Oh. It goes to Krishnagar. Sudāmā: Over here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, down below, there is the kitchen for cooking. And we have here small kuchulla(?) for coal cooking. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can you open one of these boards, show Prabhupāda the... [break] Jayapatāka: All is for storage. Sudāmā: Underneath. You have to open. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Jayapatāka: They put all rice and everything there. Prabhupāda: Stock. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Books also? Madhudviṣa: Doesn't it get wet down there, though, Jayapatāka? Jayapatāka: There's another floor. Sudāmā: And also up front, behind Bhavānanda Mahārāja, is also another storage which goes all the way up to the front of the ship. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These seats go folding down also when not in use. They can go up or down. Prabhupāda: It can go in the ocean? Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: It can go? Sudāmā: The maji who we purchased the boat from said it can go to Indonesia. Jayapatāka: No, he said... He went to Purī first. Prabhupāda: Where is that maji? Sudāmā: He went to Orissa. Prabhupāda: So where is the maji? He went? Bhavānanda: It was another man in Diamond Harbor who said they would go to Indonesia. Maji... They have been to Purī. Jayapatāka: He went to Orissa. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Jayapatāka: His father owned the boat. We bought from him. His son was the maji, so we kept him as the maji. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) So let us go. Which way? This way or that way? The same way. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Same way. Jayapatāka: This will take about two, three more days to finish painting. Then it will be ready. The Deities will be going just here on one platform. Prabhupāda: And up? Jayapatāka: Up? People can also sit up. So it will be very nice to sit up on the top. We're making one special stair for all that. [break] ...cart. Prabhupāda: ...men you are going. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That boat? Jayapatāka: Twelve, fifteen men. Prabhupāda: So that can be easily accommodated? Jayapatāka: Oh, yes. We could accommodate even twenty men. But that will be easy to accommodate, just twelve. Prabhupāda: No. Don't take many. Jayapatāka: You want to walk back the same way or a different way? Prabhupāda: Different? There is different way? Jayapatāka: There's one path this way. But that's longer. Prabhupāda: Longer. No... Jayapatāka: [break] ...should like to install the Deities for the program? Prabhupāda: Hm? If I am here, I can do. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Yes. This land belonged to Śrīdhara Mahārāja? Jayapatāka: It belonged to Śrīdhara Mahārāja. I think he sold it off. Prabhupāda: [break] ...not doing anything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No money, probably. [break] ...crane comes here. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For the big temple, big crane. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That will immediately silence them. Big crane rolling in that can be seen. The crane will be bigger than any other temple that's already built here. [break] ...engineer from Larson and Tubro who came to meet you in Bombay? He says that they've built one building now, the tallest building in India. It's a thirty*-five-story building. It's over three hundred foot high. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: Where is that? Bombay? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Madhudviṣa: Air India building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe that's the one. What is the size of the Caitanya Matha? That's the biggest one here? The biggest in Bengal? The Caitanya Matha temple, a hundred and ten foot, is the biggest temple in Bengal. There's not many big temples here... But that church is bigger in Chowringhee. I think that church that the British built... Prabhupāda: Chowringhee? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Near Victoria Memorial, that church? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. St. Paul's Cathedral. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that's higher than... Madhudviṣa: Oh, yes, that's big. Bhavānanda: Also in Krishnanagar, big Catholic church. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Five minutes. [break] Jayapatāka: ...festival devotees will pay one rupee. Prabhupāda: Huh? Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Such a short walk. Prabhupāda: Why? They should come by walking. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, unless someone is carrying something heavy or is invalid, they shouldn't ride. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should pass that rule, you know, Jayapatāka? If they're told they can't, then they won't do it, if they're told they shouldn't. One reason might be that it becomes a little hot at that time of the year, so the heat of the day, maybe it's too much for them. Actually, there was a suggestion made by a number of GBC men that they wanted to request you that in future years that the festival could be held ending on Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's appearance day rather than beginning, the reason being that in America the months of... Prabhupāda: No, that is system here also. The festival begins before the birthday and ends on the birthday. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their suggestion wanted to be that the entire festival, including Vṛndāvana and everything, should precede this because in America beginning about mid*-March, especially April, is the best months for preaching in colleges and other places. Prabhupāda: Oh. So you can arrange like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And furthermore, here it gets a little hot. This would give us the coolest months, February. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And February is the worst time for book distribution in the West, whereas March, April is a good time. Prabhupāda: So let them... So they may come in February. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In future years? Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That will be very much appreciated by everyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not too cold in Vṛndāvana? I don't think so. End of February is not cold. Harikeṣa: For Westerners it's not cold. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Westerners are accustomed to that. They'll like it. They'll prefer it. They won't mind. They can't take the heat. Vṛndāvana is very cold in mid*-February, Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Not. Vṛndāvana is very cold December*-January. Harikeṣa: At night. At night. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are accustomed to it. They can tolerate it. The hot part is more intolerable for Americans. It's really a good idea. Harikeṣa: It's colder than sixty degrees. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The college preaching in the month of April is the very best. [break] Do you think something could be written on this wall? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, advertisement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This prasādam pavilion wall... Prabhupāda: [break] ...used for fuel. This crust, this, that can be used for burning. Yes. Jayapatāka: They are the fuel for the... Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] When dismantling will begin? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When will the dismantling begin? Prabhupāda: This gentleman, he will do that. He can do it immediately. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said it can begin immediately. [break] Prabhupāda: ...are standing properly? These walls, they are standing in right angle? This wall? Jayapatāka: I think so, yes. Prabhupāda: No, you have measured? Bhavānanda: Standing up properly on the boundary of the land, you mean? Prabhupāda: No, no. Madhudviṣa: Vertically. Jayapatāka: I saw the masons measuring when they bricked it, but I never measured myself. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What do you think might be wrong, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Then, in due course of time, it'll fall down. Indian devotee (1): You mean the foundation? Prabhupāda: No the wall, if it is like this. Bhavānanda: If it is leaning. Prabhupāda: So you have not tested it? Jayapatāka: I have seen while they were laying the bricks they were testing all the time. Harikeṣa: It seems to be leaning. Jayapatāka: In the future I'll pers... Madhudviṣa: Drop a plumb line. Jayapatāka: Yes, they have a... Madhudviṣa: You can drop a plumb line. Jayapatāka: From this corner we can see. [break] ...stores. You suggest prasāda from one of the stores. Prabhupāda: Prasāda selling. Jayapatāka: How is the best way to do that? Like in Jag... They are doing? A small...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatāka: Like Jagannātha Purī? Prabhupāda: Yes, small basis, you can begin. All these rooms are being utilized? Jayapatāka: These are cement godown. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If this walk is lined with those bottle plums, as you suggested. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It'll be very attractive. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Nellore, that house we were staying at had that. Prabhupāda: So bottle plums can be purchased? Jayapatāka: Yes. Prabhupāda: So why not do? [break]...ing in their health? Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (Gurukula kīrtana party, chanting, meets Prabhupāda) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...like they are doing in so many other places? Prabhupāda: You spend it. Jayapatāka: Just like the Tirupati temple. They have got crores and crores of rupees in the bank, so government has borrowed twenty crores of rupees for improving the worship (?) If we spend the money as soon as it's made, then they won't take. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the point. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The reason the government... *Prabhupāda: That is... That was the purpose of my Trust making: fifty percent immediately spent for printing, fifty percent building*-no money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bank balance, zero. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is my program. You get money: you spend money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Make one million and the next day be with nil. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahminical qualification. Whatever he gets, he spends. That's all. Jayapatāka: Those in ISKCON who (?) haven't spent money, they got in trouble. Like, in Germany they stored money. Prabhupāda: No, storing is not good. Some money may be, few lakhs, stored for emergency. Otherwise the principle should be to get money and spend money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually in Tirupati, one of the reasons the government took over is that the trustees themselves were squandering the money. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is everywhere. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wrongfully, you know. That man who is our life member from Madras who was in charge of Indian Express? Girirāja and I made him a member. Madhudviṣa: Goenka? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Goenka. He was taking the money and they caught him. He's one of the trustees, and he was embe..., you know, embezzling the money, using it for individual business projects he had. The government caught him. Prabhupāda: [break] ...from distant place. Indian man: (Bengali) Jayapatāka: If we could distribute the Hare Kṛṣṇa records, they would play that over the loudspeaker. Prabhupāda: That's nice. [break] Oh, śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya. (over loudspeaker) *Madhudviṣa: There was one question in class this morning about Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, and in your Bhāgavatam you say that this is the smallest universe. So I questioned whether if this is the smallest universe, and Jayapatāka said that in other universes there's more volumes of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Would that mean that Kṛṣṇa manifests more pastimes in the higher universes? Prabhupāda: Yes. He is unlimited. Why do you limit? *Madhudviṣa: So is the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam compiled in the same way in other universes? Vyāsadeva compiles it like he does in this universe as well? Prabhupāda: Yes, same process. Madhudviṣa: Just it's more expanded. *Prabhupāda: There are many demigods. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam [Bs. 5.33]. Everything is ananta. Just like here you cannot count how many. Here, this much space, if I ask you, "Count how many grasses are there," you cannot do it. Everywhere. You count in this field how many plants are there. You cannot do it. So, similarly other planet, other, other...There are unlimited fields. You cannot count. Why you try to count it, "How many universes? How many devotees?" That is foolishness. It is not possible. Wherever you start, everything is unlimited. Can you count how many atoms are there, atomic? That is your limitation. Therefore I say "frog philosophy." The limited wants to study the unlimited. That is frog philosophy. The frog is thinking, "Eh? Three feet. All right, four feet. All right, five feet." He cannot think unlimited because he is frog. So don't imitate the frog. Take it as it is stated in the śāstra. Then it is all right. So what we are getting from this banana garden? Jayapatāka: Banana. Prabhupāda: Getting unlimited? (laughter) What do you do with the bananas? Jayapatāka: Offer them to the Deity. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] It's better path here. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Jayapatāka: See the mango? Prabhupāda: Where is that mango? Jayapatāka: It's about ten feet high. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all. [break] How many years it will take? Jayapatāka: Take another two, three years. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Sometime we read that Caitanya Mahāprabhu, in that... There is a mango tree that grew immediately? And it's described: no pit, no skin and no pit. Does that mean very thin skin or no skin at all? Because if there's no... I mean, it seems like for... Prabhupāda: Even it was skin, it was not the skin as you think. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Edible skin. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...with me in Kurukṣetra? *Harikeṣa: I was there. Caitya*-guru also. Prabhupāda: Yes. That Mr. Nanda, he showed his cowshed. Harikeṣa: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has a cowshed? Harikeṣa: It's a big shed but no cows. Hariśauri: Seventeen cows are here. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Bengali) What is this room? Jayapatāka: This is the... Right now the devotees are staying here. This will be a... It will come up to here. It will be one... There'll be storage and place for the milk and devotees here. Gradually we're building. We put a few thousand every month, whenever we get money. We're building this like the Gauḍīya Matha, just a little bit every month. Prabhupāda: These flowers or where...? Jayapatāka: These are giving the milk. They eat the flowers. Prabhupāda: They eat? Bhavānanda: Yes, they like. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Jayapatāka: You can see them nicely from here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Sudāmā: This side. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Haribol. Jayapatāka: This cow we just bought. What's the name? I don't know this one. Indian devotee (2): Lalitā. Jayapatāka: Lalitā. This is Surabhi. Prabhupāda: Lalitā Bose? (laughter) Jayapatāka: This is Surabhi, Surabhi cow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is she giving milk? Jayapatāka: She is giving nice milk. She was from Hyderabad, the one. She gave... Baby one. This is Nandini. This is Kāmadhuk, the original cow. This is the first cow. Kaliya. The bull. We have to get a special room for him. He's too big now. Prabhupāda: You can make a, what is called, circular with fence. Sudāmā: Corral? Prabhupāda: Then you can get... Jayapatāka: He breaks it. Prabhupāda: He breaks? Jayapatāka: Because... He used to be baby. Now he's getting angry more. We'll make over there one fenced area, brick. Prabhupāda: So make pakkā. Jayapatāka: Yes. Otherwise sometimes he just picks up devotee and throws. Just last night he picked one devotee and threw him. Very dangerous now. He used to be quiet but now he's getting old and ornery. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He threw the devotee? Sudāmā: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hurt? Jayapatāka: Yes, hurt. Hurt his leg. Prabhupāda: Then how to control? *Jayapatāka: We have to build him a special cage. Pīppalāi and others, they are able to control with stick and by nose. But inexperienced man, they just walk right next to him and then*-whsst! You have to be careful when you go by him, so we have to put him separate... Prabhupāda: Separate. That is the way. That Hanuman Prasād in...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Yes, I remember him. Prabhupāda: So, yes, so just suggest that way. Give him a plan. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is he going to get any bigger than that? Jayapatāka: I don't think so. He is half Australian and half Indian. *Prabhupāda: Best half. (laughter) Varṇa*-saṅkara. Jayapatāka: All of our cows are half and half, but the Western cows give the more milk. Prabhupāda: So they have no ground to graze? Jayapatāka: They go out every day and graze. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, you want to see these? Jayapatāka: These are the bullocks on the left and the babies on the right. Prabhupāda: They can be used for plowing? Jayapatāka: Yes, when they get big. Some are cows and some are men, bulls. These are the new ones. In the government, they kill all the male calves and only keep the female. But we will use for the fields. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatāka: This is for their little playpen. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Playpen? Jayapatāka: They eat... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nicely made. Is this going to have a roof on it? Jayapatāka: Yes, this roof we're just putting up. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I notice some of these cows are... Hariprasāda gave us. Madhudviṣa: They don't give milk? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They've never given any milk. Very charitable. Give it to Govinda. Jayapatāka: These three cows, we've been doing..., sent to the hospital two, three times. They've given all type of medicine, everything, but they just won't get pregnant. This one, two, three. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He knew it when he gave us these cows. He knew that. *Jayapatāka: I was going to go to Hyderabad, but instead we started our building, so I sent Pūrna*-prajña from Calcutta, my man. I sent two farmers. They called up and said, "They're giving bad cows. Don't take the cows." And then Haribhai Paduka got on the phone and said, "Oh, they are insulting me. They're saying I'm giving bad cows, this, that. I am going to..." He gave some complaint. So someone said, "All right. Whatever you give, it's all right." Then he gave these. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One good one and three useless ones. Prabhupāda: So why did you accept it? Jayapatāka: I was in Māyāpur. I told them, "Don't accept bad." They called up, said, "These are no good. We won't accept." Then from Calcutta someone said, "You accept." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are the two oxen. Prabhupāda: Whenever somebody wants to give, you don't accept immediately. Tell them first of all, "Let us see." *Jayapatāka: [break] ...room for cutting the grass and for weld. Pump room and grass*-cutting room. Prabhupāda: Which way we shall go now? Sudāmā: This way, Prabhupāda. Jayapatāka: Previously the cows... Now, since before, the cows have become more healthy. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayapatāka: Since before, cows have become more healthy, and now people are appreciating very much. Prabhupāda: What is the cause? Jayapatāka: The cost? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The cause for the... Jayapatāka: Oh, because of Pīppalāi's very careful service. Prabhupāda: That's it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is Pīppalāi? Jayapatāka: This is Pīppalāi prabhu, here. He is from Mexico. Prabhupāda: You have got experience? Pīppalāi: No, I don't have experience. Hariśauri: He was running the presses in New York. Prabhupāda: So you like this? Pīppalāi: Yes, very much so. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jayapatāka: And also John prabhu... Both of them, they are staying here even though there's no electricity. Prabhupāda: Electricity is not very important thing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which way, Jayapatāka? Prabhupāda: So? Jayapatāka: They wanted to show their land. Prabhupāda: Where it is? So? What that land will be utilized for? Jayapatāka: That's only good for cultivation. Prabhupāda: You have got sufficient arrangement for cultivation? Jayapatāka: We need... We don't have enough cultivation land for the amount of devotees we have. Prabhupāda: So how many bīghās (5/8 of one acre) there are? Jayapatāka: But that land... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is it? Jayapatāka: Even from here you can just see without going all that way there. The thing... This is the lake. Prabhupāda: Lake? Jayapatāka: This is a lake. This, in the rainy season it becomes submerged. That's what I was saying last night. He said that if you dig a lake in the middle, then you can make it high. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Useless land. Prabhupāda: That is not good. Jayapatāka: But now we've got some crops growing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means that land should be very cheap. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He can sell very cheaply. It's very low land. *Prabhupāda: Now you should have sufficient experience. People may not cheat you*-low land, high price. Jayapatāka: I understand. I know those things. That's why... But he was just forcing his way in your room and then saying all those things. That's why when he came I said, "How many crops you took from your land?" I know all the history of these lands. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) You cannot utilize it for different crops. Only one you can. *Jayapatāka: You can only use for, in the rainy season, for some type of rice and then now wheat*-two crops. Indian man (3): (Bengali) Jayapatāka: Winter rice, he is saying, bula(?) rice. Prabhupāda: Oh. (Bengali) Now, taking instruction from Mādhava Mahārāja, you should be careful about purchasing land. People are very cunning. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...that ten bīghās and eight bīghās of land on the corner, you were mentioning? Jayapatāka: Yes. We will go back this way. Will Prabhupāda be able to walk that far? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know how far it is. Jayapatāka: It's right over there. Of course, we can go back through the field. Prabhupāda: [break] ...can see tomorrow. Eh? Jayapatāka: All right. We'll check it, make a path. See, that's the path. Prabhupāda: [break] The road is rough. Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we shall go that way. If it is like this, we can go. Now, still, it is rough. (Bengali) [break] ...filling up the road? No. You have taken earth from here. (Bengali) Jayapatāka: They're just leveling. Prabhupāda: [break] ...whether they are being properly utilized. Jayapatāka: Every land is being planted on. We made... Prabhupāda: On the other side you have got some land? *Jayapatāka: Yes. We plan to put irrigation there. I have two diesel five*-horsepower, seven-horsepower engine. One I put over there and they are irrigating. We have fourteen bīghās of wheat, very good wheat. And here in the back we've also purchased here another set and we're irrigating that, this unirrigated land, and it only gets some chick pea and things, very bad crop, minimum crop. So now we've got the irrigation, we're getting many more crops. [break] Prabhupāda: That I want, that it must be properly utilized. Otherwise you purchase and there is no utility. Jayapatāka: But Tapomaya, he says that we need more land to be able to feed all the devotees. And every time we're building more buildings, we're just losing land but we're not gaining so much agricultural land. Prabhupāda: No, no. We can purchase. First of all think that whether we can utilize. Jayapatāka: Land is all being utilized. We need more land for grazing the cows also. Bhavānanda: Definitely the land can be utilized. Prabhupāda: That's all. Then purchase. *Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I had one question about this play by Girish Ghosh. The Girish Ghosh was a debauchee, and wouldn't it be better to take, make dramas from your Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam? Then the sound vibration is coming from pure source. Or does that not matter? If the man was... *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all you see how it can be utilized, whatever translation is there. Then we shall purify it. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlānam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Just like this microphone. It is prepared by the meat*-eaters. How we are utilizing it? Everything has got a proper process to purify it. [Break]...nice, eh? Jayapatāka: We don't have any land in this area. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whose land is it? Jayapatāka: So many people. Prabhupāda: So many. So it is good land? No? Jayapatāka: This is medium land. Across the road is considered good land. Our area here is considered good because of irrigation. This is medium. And the man wants to sell. But it doesn't go as far as our land. It only goes to this point. He's asking three thousand. Prabhupāda: They are all expecting good price from us. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Before we came here... Jayapatāka: Only in the back, still they are asking more reasonable: seventeen, sixteen, eighteen, four thousand. Prabhupāda: Seventeen, sixteen? Jayapatāka: They're asking in the back. Prabhupāda: Seventeen hundred? That's all right. Jayapatāka: We're buying those. So why they put the water here? To sabotage. There was no water when we came. Now they put more water here. Gosvāmī Mahārāja is taking water. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayapatāka: They flooded. Sudāmā: You cross here, Prabhupāda. (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 18, 1976, Mäyäpur Madhudviṣa: ...*Bhāgavatam* you say that we should greet the sun with the verse from Gāyatrī mantra. Does that means we should wait for sunrise to say our Gāyatrī? Just as the sun is rising, we should say the Gāyatrī. Prabhupāda: No. Early in the morning. (Gurukula boys in background) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes we take bath before sunrise and put on tilaka. Should the mantra be said at that time, after putting on tilaka? Or should we wait and then say it... Prabhupāda: No, no. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...when the sun rises? After tilaka? Prabhupāda: No, no, tilaka should be done after bathing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And then when should the Gāyatrī be said? Right after... Prabhupāda: After tilaka. Gāyatrī mantra is description of the sun. [break] ...our land? Bhavānanda: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jayapatāka: This is wheat growing here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapatāka: This is wheat growing. Prabhupāda: This land? Jayapatāka: This is not our land. Prabhupāda: And this? Up to this...? Bhavānanda: This is our land, and this is our land. This is not. [break] Jayapatāka: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Would it be nice to have lampposts here? Little lampposts to light the road? Prabhupāda: It is cold. (laughs) Bare? No. That's nice. Hike for(?) barefooted. It is there, up. [break] You have to make little shade like this, just like upon the wall the shade is there. You make to the walls so that the water may not spoil the painting. Bhavānanda: Oh, on the front wall. Jayapatāka: A little sunscreen. Bhavānanda: Sun..., rain screen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatāka: Stick it one foot out, one, two feet out. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not two foot. One, one*-half foot will do. Jayapatāka: I was thinking that this morning, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when I woke up. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatāka: You must have been thinking.... I woke up thinking that the paintings needed a sunscreen because rain will fall on them. Prabhupāda: Which way? [break] All the members, they should water in front. Hm? Just like if somebody remains in this room, he must water. Then there will be no difficulty. Here is water. So you have to engage them. Why it will dry? [break] Jayapatāka: You suggested prasādam, books, cloth... Prabhupāda: Cloth you are not going to sell. Cloth are you going to sell? Jayapatāka: We can take donations for cloth. We won't sell. We'll take donations for cloth. Prabhupāda: That, for that purpose... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the harm of selling cloth, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, then you will require extra energy. Jayapatāka: No, I mean our own production, not outside. Prabhupāda: No, no, your production.... You should make production for your necessity. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The American devotees, when they come, they want to purchase the cloth. Prabhupāda: That is amongst ourself, not public. That one can purchase from that side. Why a shop? You make one utensil shop, bāsana, bāsana, karatāla. So one, prasādam; one, bāsana; and another? Jayapatāka: Books. Prabhupāda: Books. And another? Four you have got. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know those quotations you gave from your guru mahārāja? Yesterday you wrote some quotations? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here is a place where they might be displayed. This is a blank place. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. There it should be written. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is very prominent. Prabhupāda: Not only there, here also. Jayapatāka: In big letters here. Prabhupāda: Yes. And there are so many places. Yes. First of all you place this and the other. We can give the upadeśa of Prabhupāda. I'll give you matter for writing. So writing, that charges should be reduced. One... *Jayapatāka: Yesterday Caitya*-guru, the man he brought from Calcutta, he only wanted one rupee, seventy-five paisa. Prabhupāda: For painting. And for writing that should be... *Jayapatāka: Writing, maybe one twenty*-five. Prabhupāda: No. One. One. Make it one. Jayapatāka: One rupee. Prabhupāda: Yes. Which way we shall go? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This way. We haven't gone walking this way. Prabhupāda: So where you are going to give that shade upon? Jayapatāka: So what we'd have to do is we'd have to break the top. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapatāka: We'd have to break the top and then... Prabhupāda: Break? Why break? Another expenditure. Simply you make two brackets, wooden brackets, like that, and have a tin. That's all. Jayapatāka: Tin. Prabhupāda: Tin or steel. Why breaking, again another? Jayapatāka: There's already a.... I was thinking about the rain, if it's falling straight down, that will be somewhat protected by this arch. Only if the rain is coming from this side, and even then it won't protect... *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. The arch will.... That's all right. Then don't require. Then it is all right. Don't require. [break] It will be colder in Bengal. Māghi, Māgha*-māsa. Who has done this mischief, "Māyāpura"? Jayapatāka: Someone put mud over "Māyāpura." This is our land, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayapatāka: This is our land here. Prabhupāda: Which one? Jayapatāka: This, with the wheat. We have a tube well there. We irrigate these lands. There are six and sixty, twelve bigas... [break] ...last year's harvest. We haven't had to purchase any wheat this year. Prabhupāda: The capati we eat, that is our wheat? Jayapatāka: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very good, yes. Jayapatāka: [break] ...bīghā is also ours. Prabhupāda: This one? Jayapatāka: Yes. Prabhupāda: What you have grown there? Jayapatāka: Chick peas. *Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Chick pea, capati, gur*-first class. (laughter) And milk. Jayapatāka: [break] ...land next to us, this gentleman. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is his name? Jayapatāka: Vakresvar. He worked on our original house. [break] In the rainy season the Ganges, when it rises high, it comes through here. It runs right by the birthsite. They say this is the original Ganges, over here. [break] Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gurukula boys: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: Jaya. Brahmacārīs. *Jayapatāka: [break] Not so many gosas come for prasādam. (break*-to room conversation) *Devotee (1): "...Sanat Kumāras were going to Vaikuṇṭha to visit Lord Viṣṇu. They were stopped at the door by the doorkeepers, Jaya and Vijaya. But specifically, the Supreme Lord cannot be seen by ordinary eyes. But He now became visible to the eyesight of the Kumāras. Another significant word is samādhi*-vākyam. Meditators who are very fortunate see the Viṣṇu form of the Lord within their hearts by following the yoga process. But to see Him eye to eye is a different matter. It is only possible for pure devotees. The Kumāras therefore..." [break] Bhavānanda: ...aratika? Prabhupāda: No. No. That... Bhavānanda: They have kīrtanas... Prabhupāda: Going on. Bhavānanda: Yes. Devotee (1): [break] They couldn't see the Lord face to face? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhruva Mahārāja saw face to face. Sudama: [break] ...factured this in Hawaii. *Prabhupāda: [break] So then the chance is lost. Repeatedly Kṛṣṇa is saying, "You give up all this habit. Just become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Sarva-dharmān..." Nobody will hear. "Why shall I not?" There is a Bengali song, cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo keno dekhbo nā: "If it is gratifying to my eyes, why shall I not see a beautiful woman? Why you are forbidding me?" Cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo: "It is pleasing to my eyes. Why you are forbidding me? This is going on. Cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo. If there is little happiness, don't mind it is flickering. It will go on. The Carvaka Muni: ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet: "Some way or other prepare foodstuff with ghee." "I have no money." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā: "Just take. Beg, borrow, steal, bring ghee and prepare nice foodstuff and eat and enjoy life." This is the material world. But śāstra says, "No, no, no. Don't do this. This is the hog's business. Tapo. Just try to go, follow austerity." Even those who are so-called advanced in knowledge, karmī, jñānī, yogī, they are also after sense gratification. Karmī is openly after sense gratification and jñānī is subtly. "No, no. This kind of..." Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. "Now I shall enjoy Brahman. I shall become God." This is another side, the same sense enjoyment. Because I have failed becoming a minister or becoming a king, becoming a leader, becoming*-I have failed, now I shall become God. Same sense grati.... They cannot understand that this is also sense gratification. "I am not no more satisfied by becoming a little minister and king and.... No. I shall become God. Why shall I.... By becoming king or minister I beg to the goddess of fortune, 'Mother, give me a little money.' Why shall I beg? I shall enjoy her. I become Nārāyaṇa." Same disease. A yogi also, after mystic power they want to show magic: "I shall make like this and gold will be there. People will worship me as I am God." Do that. People do that. If you play something wonderful they will accept you: "Oh, you are God." But he does not know that he cannot become God. That is not possible. Although he gets little fractional authority to puzzle others that he has become God.... Because people are fools, if he can produce little gold like this, they will be immediately amazed: "Oh, how powerful he is." They have no capacity to understand. If God is meant for making gold, why not worship the God who has made already millions of gold mines? Unlimited. There is no limit. Why this paltry god? They have no such knowledge. They are amazed. Hari-śauri: They have to go to so much trouble as well just to achieve that little flickering... Prabhupāda: Very, very great trouble. You have not seen the yogis? Of course, there are some.... But still, they have to undergo very severe processes for achieving this yogic power. And a devotee, they kick it, that "What is this nonsense?" That is devotee. "What is this nonsense? What shall I do by producing gold?" And I never tried for making gold, but is there any scarcity of gold? I never tried for that, how to make gold. That Sai Baba is showing some magic power. What of the Maharsi? Maha.... He was also after some yogic power. Harikeśa: I don't know. *Prabhupāda: You were with him. You do not know? "The transcendental meditation*-you will get this, you will get that." He is advertising in that... Hari-śauri: All material opulence. Harikeśa: Ultimately you will become God. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the attempt. Hari-śauri: And in the meantime, you can enjoy material world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: They never said anything more than you'll just get good sex life and good health. Prabhupāda: That is.... Becoming God means the same, money and sex. That's all. Harikeśa: Wouldn't it be handy, though, to be able to fly around without having to use airplanes? Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: I mean, if you had some mystic opulence like being able to fly. Prabhupāda: Yes, the yogis can do that. Harikeśa: Wouldn't that be handy? Couldn't a devotee utilize that? Prabhupāda: What is the use? Harikeśa: Well, instead of taking airplanes here and there, you could just... *Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the difference? If by practicing severe yogic means you fly, the birds are also flying. They are flying without airplane. Does it mean that it has become very great? There are many birds, garuḍa bird. They can fly from one planet to another. Just like small birds*-they fly from one tree to another, take rest again-so they fly from this planet to another. Take rest, again another. What is the value of your airplane? You cannot go to another planet. There are birds; they catch up elephants and take it away for eating. Does it mean he has become, it has become God? There are Siddhaloka planets where the people can go without any airplane from one planet to another, Siddhaloka. They have got all yogic siddhi automatically, by birth. Just like we cannot fly, but a small bird, a small fly, from the birth it can fly. There are so many. So similarly, by birth they have got all yogic siddhis. This is called Siddhaloka. There are different varieties of planets, different varieties of perfection. Just like here also, I cannot dive into the water. A small fish can dive. I cannot fly in the sky but a small sparrow, it can go from here, here, immediately. Does it mean he is very advanced in yogic power because he can fly? You are proposing that. Nothing is any big achievement. The big achievement is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted. Not these things. These things.... You cannot do; I can do. I cannot do; he can do. What is the greatness? Harikeśa: It seems harder to control the tongue than to fly. Prabhupāda: Fly? Harikeśa: It takes more austerity to control one's tongue by chanting and taking prasādam. *Prabhupāda: Even that is not achievement. To control the senses, that is not very great achievement. The great achievement, how we have become a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So that will include everything. You haven't got to prepare gold, but if you want gold, Kṛṣṇa will send you. So why should I try for that and waste my time? Let me become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is required. Kṛṣṇa.... Yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham: [Bg. 9.22] "I shall give you all protection. I shall supply whatever you want," Kṛṣṇa said. So I shall do such thing when Kṛṣṇa will be my protector and supplier and everything. He is all-powerful, so He will do that-if I require. I don't require anything. I.... Simply I have to become a sincere, pure devotee. But if I require something, it will come from Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I try for it? A rich man's son, he doesn't do anything for earning money. He knows, "My father is rich and as soon as I require money, he will give me. So why shall I become a big, big businessman and become a karmī?" Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upāry adhaḥ [SB 1.5.18]. You try for that thing which you did not achieve so long, even if you have traveled from different species of life, different planets. For that thing you try, which you have not achieved. Simply you have become implicated. Hari-śauri: Why bother with something that's available to a hog? Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Why bother with something that is available even to the hogs? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, even if you achieve such thing, achievement, so where is the guarantee that you'll..., it will stay? The so*-called achievements for sense gratification, that means body. The body is always troublesome. That day I was asking, "Did you taste the Birla's eggplant?" You said, "No, I could not take it," due to the body. So even things are there, the body will not allow you. There are many rich men, they have got money, but they cannot eat anything. Hari-śauri: That John Paul Getty is the richest man in the world, and they asked him, "What would be your wish if you could have anything?" He said, "I just want to be healthy. I've got so much money but I'm not healthy." *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many. There was a big, rich man in Calcutta, Raja Jyotindramana Ṭhākura. So just like you give me so many things, he was king, he was getting more supply, but he had no appetite. So one day he was given so many things*-because it was routine. So one coolie was going on the street, taking a fish and chanting very pleasingly. So he said that "Instead of becoming Raja Jyotindramana Ṭhākura, if I could have been a coolie like that, at least I could enjoy by eating. And what is this? I have got everything but I cannot eat." He regretted, "I would have become a coolie like that instead of becoming a Ṭhākura." Hari-śauri: Everybody's mad after getting some big position, and then when they get it they find out it's even worse than where they started. Prabhupāda: Because the body does not allow. So all, from all side we were discussing Prahlāda Mahārāja's..., how he is experienced of this material way of life. It is all useless. So by following this mahājana devotee we can make our life perfect. Nothing is wanted except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfection of life. That is instruction of.... Na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarim [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4]. No, we don't want. Then what do you want? Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatad bhaktir ahaitukī. Without any motive let me become a sincere devotee of.... (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 18, 1976, Mäyäpur *Prabhupāda: Viśvanātha Cakravartī has discussed. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so easy: man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto, four principles. Why people do not take to it? Hm? What is that? Harikeśa: He just wanted to know if someone was allowed to come for darśana. *Prabhupāda: Yes, let them come. This time, five to seven? (conchshell sounds) (Bengali) [break] Śrīmad-bhāgavata-dharma is for the person who is not jealous. Paramo nirmatśarāṇāṁ [SB 1.1.2]. This very word is used in the beginning, that "This bhāgavata-dharma is meant for persons who is not jealous." Otherwise the material, whole world is full of jealousy. Even during the time of Kṛṣṇa there was Paundra, out of jealousy. And there were so many. Beginning from Kṛṣṇa's birth the asuras were jealous-"How to kill Kṛṣṇa." This is the whole mat.... Even in the higher planetary system the jealousy is there, asuras and the devas, devasura. So our business is, as instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. This jealousy will go on. Therefore one has to learn how to tolerate jealousy. Kīrtaniyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. If one wants to push on this saṅkīrtana movement.... Prabhupāda.... We are insignificant creature. So many persons. You cannot avoid it. The best way is to learn how to tolerate. That is very nice. Otherwise Caitanya Mahāprabhu not have said, taror api sahiṣṇunā. That is the best. So we are not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, neither like Prabhupāda, and we shall have to learn to tolerate. (Bengali) It is clearly written in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta that kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nāhe kṛṣṇa nāma pracāraṇa. Even they have no common sense, what can be done? No, no, this formula, that this is something new in the history of the world, and still they are jealous, what is this? They are finding fault. In Vṛndāvana, Nṛsiṁha-vallabha Gosvāmī, you know? He comes to me. He says, "So many people are jealous upon you." I say that first of all you create something like me. Then you become jealous. (Bengali) First of all let them become like me. Then.... (Bengali) The superior, he will dictate. And yei, equal, they will live like friends. And those who are junior, they should follow and obey. This is the Vaiṣṇava niyama. So those who are neither equal nor higher, how they can dictate? That is their mistake. Either first of all become higher than him-then you dictate-or you be equal with him-then you suggest. You are lower and you want to dictate? What is this nonsense? (Bengali) By standard, one who is lower, they want to dictate. (Bengali) (loud conchshell) Bas. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. They may be very big visioner. (Bengali) A pakkā Vaiṣṇava like you, to find out faults, what is this? Rādhārāṇī is.... (Bengali) They have not united. They have disunited. And here, practically you see all religions, all nations, all persons, all philosophy. Everything is there. (Bengali) They have come with their life. (Bengali) C.I.A. (Bengali) Less common sense they have. They haven't got even common sense. [break] ...on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, so all the money should be given to us. The money actually belongs to Kṛṣṇa. You, by tricks you are holding it. (knock) Yes? Āsana. Open this. Open. (break*-to morning walk) *Morning Walk-*-January 19, 1976, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: Nobody knows. Jayapatāka: The volume is a million times more than the earth. Don't know the circumference. They say the sun is a million times bigger than the earth, volume. Prabhupāda: [break] Cleansing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cleaning, pūjārīs, cooking. Saurabha: Cleaning is very big job to maintain, especially with exhibitions that... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maintenance. Jayapatāka: We can get a lot of people, village people, to come and live without pay and do the cleaning, but they won't be productive. I mean, they'll have to be supported by the temple. They'll just be cleaning all day. Prabhupāda: Supporting is no problem. To everyone we can give place and food. There is no problem. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If there is an escalator in the building, simply the proceeds from people going on that escalator, Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: Yes, there will be income. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...will be a huge income. I'm certain thousands of people will come daily just to ride that escalator. (laughter) Because even now a few hundred or more, five hundred to a thousand people come every day just for darśana. So these will all pay a rupee. And if this building is there, that will be ten times the number of people. It'll be a gigantic income. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Bengali) [break] ...Mādhava Mahārāja's sisya? No. Bhavānanda: Mādhava Mahārāja? Jayapatāka: Gosvāmī. He used to be in charge of the agriculture. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...all of the buildings all the way around, it will look very nice. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: With those small little buildings all around it will look very nice. Jayapatāka: What small little buildings? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're planning to build them, one*-story buildings. Jayapatāka: [break] ...we should have a mosaic floor or a colored cement floor? What standard that should be? Prabhupāda: Mosaic. Trivikrama: Good standard. Prabhupāda: [break] You can get mosaic tiles. Jayapatāka: It is no cheaper. We make the mosaic ourselves. We manufacture here. *Prabhupāda: So digging must begin today? The men are there for digging? So Saurabha, you give one site plan immediately. Yes. And order bricks, that's all. Cement and sand we have got. [break] ...any living entity having a material body, he has got soul. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Now preach this movement. [break] Begin also building there, like this. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That piece of land right here? Prabhupāda: Huh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When do you want to begin it? Prabhupāda: Immediately. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What's this? *Prabhupāda: [break] Nṛsiṁhadeva wanted to give him benediction, blessings, "Whatever you like." He refused that. He said that "I am not a mercantile devotee that I'll get some benefit from You, but first benediction I want that let me engage in the service of Your servant, Nārada Muni." Tava bhṛtya*-sevām. "Because my spiritual master gave me blessing, therefore I see You. So my first business is to serve him." This is Vaiṣṇava conclusion. So he refused direct service but he wanted blessing that he may be engaged in the service of his spiritual master. This is Vaiṣṇava conclusion. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was indebted to his guru. Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly he must be. Certainly he must be. Because by the mercy, guru takes the compassion that "These are suffering in this material world," he goes door to door and tries to save him. And if one forgets guru and jumps over to serve Kṛṣṇa, he is not a devotee. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Guru*-druha. *Prabhupāda: He is not a devotee. Mad*-bhaktya... There is a verse. Kṛṣṇa says that "Worship of My devotee is greater worship than to Me." Śāstrījī: Mad bhaktyā yānti mām.(?) Prabhupāda: And Lord Śiva, he advises Parvati when she was questioning.... Oh, there is no stair from inside? You have to go like this? Bhavānanda: No, ladder, there is outside stair that has to be fixed yet. It is just now finished in two stories. Prabhupāda: Outside? Bhavānanda: Outside stairs. Prabhupāda: How? Bhavānanda: Metal stairs. Prabhupāda: Where to do it within? Bhavānanda: No. Outside will be fixed. Prabhupāda: How you can? Outside how it can be fixed? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is it going to go from? Bhavānanda: There are ladders up to these rooms and then stairs on an angle up to those rooms. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ladder where? Where is there a ladder going to be? Bhavānanda: Going up this way. I'm not exactly sure how the engineering works. Jayapatāka designed it. Prabhupāda: It has been a mistake. The staircase should have been from this, within this.... Why it has not done, that? What is this nonsense, a ladder? [break] ...going to.... Yes. Indian man: One person, he is coming today. Prabhupāda: One person? Indian man: From Krishnanagar he came yesterday and.... Prabhupāda: No, no, his rate is higher. Why should you engage him? Indian man: So the other is coming on Monday or Tuesday. Bhavānanda: From Calcutta. Indian man: He is bringing a same person. Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. But why should we pay him more, the Krishnanagar. He wants that one... Bhavānanda: Three. Prabhupāda: One rupee, eight annas, three. Why should I pay? Then? If he..., you pay him three rupees, then they will also charge more. Indian man: Actually he told me.... He said, "Our rates are very higher in Krishnanagar. Don't tell anybody that we are charging three rupees. Bhavānanda: But we're not going to hire him. (laughter) Indian man: No, we are not going to hire. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We cannot pay. Indian man: It's almost double. Prabhupāda: Everyone is trying to exploit you. They freely say, the rickshawalla, that they will charge five hundred rupees per bīghā to others and they will charge four thousand rupees to you. This is going on. Don't allow them to paint unless the rate is settled. Bhavānanda: We had one day guard on our front gate last week. He worked for three days. His monthly salary was forty rupees plus his meals. So after he was here for three days the rickshawallas, they said, "Why you are working for them for so little money? They are so wealthy." And he left. Prabhupāda: Who is supervising this department? Bhavānanda: Tapomaya. Prabhupāda: Where is Tapomaya? (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is all our, for our sugarcane? Tapomāyā: Another two.... [break] Prabhupāda: So we shall pay reasonable price for all the lands. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think the price will be more than eight hundred rupees. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will take statistics for ten years and make an average. That is the way. (Bengali) [break] ...scheme requires very huge land. So if we purchase in that way they will go on charging more and more. *Indian man: Indira Gandhi.... They have now made a new one formula called "Twenty*-point formula." And in that, one part is that any society, saṁsthā (indistinct), or individual, he can keep a land, twelve acres. Prabhupāda: Society also? Indian man: Anyone. But gives two crops, and which give up one crop, they can keep thirty acres. And more than that, the government will take every, and they will distribute to all the farmers. Prabhupāda: Then? Indian man: They are doing in Haryana and Punjab. They have taken all the land. And there are many big, big gurguras. They have a land hundred acres, fifty acres, something like that. So they have given them. Prabhupāda: So without government award it will be risky. They can take away. Indian man: Ten bīghās she extracts. Prabhupāda: But who is working as farmer? Who is working as farmer? The government is eager to give them land, but who is working? Nobody is working. They are going to the factory. Even whatever land is still available, they are not being worked out. Indian man: Well, in the villages there are many poor peoples who are landless, so they are cultivating the land. Prabhupāda: No, no. Some of them are cultivating. Others are going to the city to be... Indian man: So now everybody will go. When the rich people will take their land they have to go. They will say, "How we can live with the small land," so they will move. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, why they should not try to be rich? If the rich man exploits them, that "You work in our land and take some salary," why they will work for that? They will go to the factory, will get more salary. This way Indira Gandhi cannot solve the poverty problem. They must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like these soldiers, they for twenty years, simply eating and sleeping, and they are not engaged in cultivating-useless waste of time*-and government has to maintain in big cantonment, big, big house, big, nice food, nice.... This is going on. Why the soldiers are maintained? It is waste of energy. They should have been engaged in tilling. Formerly the kings would give them free land. "You make your fortune-but on condition: when there is fight, you have to join." That was very easy. He possessed so much land, and he worked hard, and he got riches. Unless.... "Proprietorship turns sand into gold." Unless there is proprietorship, it cannot be. So therefore kṣatriyas, they were given land: "You take land as much as you like and produce but on condition that when there is war you have to join." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Europe that was the system also. Prabhupāda: Everywhere that was the system. That is called.... What is called? Harikesa: Feudalism? Prabhupāda: Feudalism, yes. What is this nonsense, maintaining so many idle men without any profit? Very, very bad system. And nowadays especially, when there is atomic energy, what is the value of the soldiers? Harikesa: We need the soldiers to start. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikesa: The soldiers, they start the war. One stands on one side, the other stands on the other side, and there's one shot, one shot, ten shots, ten shots, then mortars, then tanks, then atom bombs. Prabhupāda: No, why this is? If you have improved scientifically, let two, three scientists keep flying and the handy atom bomb. As soon as war starts, "plum," finished. Harikesa: They have that also. *Prabhupāda: Then.... Why also? That should be the only. It is waste of time. What kind of scientists they are? If you have actually improved in science for killing others by atom bomb, so keep one atom bomb very carefully. Fly in the sky. And as soon as the war*-world, "plum." Finished. Harikesa: Well, then the other will just send some boats over, and all the men will get out while they're flying in the sky, and they'll just take over the country by manual soldiers. Prabhupāda: No. As soon as atom bomb is..., everything is finished. There will be no opportunity. That is their thinking, "Who will drop the atom bomb first, he will be winner." That's all. In Russia they are adopting this means. They are releasing all the soldiers for other work. What is the use of keeping so many men idle without any work and maintain them, high salary, occupy big, big cantonment camps? Harikesa: In America the army builds roads and bridges and things. Prabhupāda: That's utilization. Why they should be paid for nothing? *Indian man: The small farmers who has a few acres of land, they are selling to a party, and they are getting a money. They knew that "After two or three years we will pose our set*-up to the government that 'We are landless,' and the government will give us some money." Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: "We will get the money now and we will also get the land." Prabhupāda: Just see. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Same way, these people in Madras, the poor people living on the street, so the government gives them the house. Then they take the house and rent it and live... Prabhupāda: In Bombay also they do that. Indian man: Still gutter, and charge. When we were looking at land in Kurukṣetra so then I found it. The people there are ready to sell it immediately to get the money. Then they will pose to the government that "We are landless," so the government will give them land again. Prabhupāda: And then the land which he purchased now, that will take away. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And given back to them. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply cheating. That's all. What is called? Bhrama*-pramāda-vipralipsā. Everyone is trying to cheat others, and that is the criterion of intelligence, "How I can cheat you, how you can cheat me." This is going on. That is the nature of the conditioned souls. [break] ...workers are coming today? Indian man: He said he will bring twenty, thirty persons today. Prabhupāda: Hm. So they will follow the instruction. They have made that plan? Bhavānanda: Yes. Indian man: He said that if he will get the supply immediately, then he can finish, even before that. Prabhupāda: So give him supply? Where is the... Indian man: No, we will get that. Everything will be all right. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhavānanda: He may say. Prabhupāda: No, no. Give supply and see they are working. That's all. No. I don't think it is impossible. It can be done. Who use? Bhavānanda: There are some people. They just leave it here. Prabhupāda: They take gobar from here? Bhavānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Then why they are working here? Bhavānanda: They collect along the road. Prabhupāda: [break] ...all planner has stolen. And we have no such arrangement. Simply we are purchasing land; we do not know how to utilize it. [break] Whenever I come I see new bhalti, new lota, and the old is stolen. That every time I come I see, a new set. Here also. Who is looking after? Everything is open, no control. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This morning Jayapatāka Mahārāja was talking to me. On the boat program they're having? They want to show that Bengali movie, "Hare Kṛṣṇa People." They have no projector, so he wanted to know whether the money that I want to give him can be used for purchasing a projector rather than the land purchase. Prabhupāda: Yes, projector is necessary. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Projector would be big preaching. Our money comes from, for preaching program. There is already a fund for land purchase, whereas there is no such fund for something like this. Prabhupāda: So it can be purchased... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cost, they say.... It costs today.... A 16 millimeter projector with sound is about ten thousand rupees, new. I have a projector in America but I don't know.... I'm going to bring it, anyway, but it's not at all new. I'm not even sure... Prabhupāda: So why new? Old is no useful? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Frankly I don't know if the projector.... This projector was donated by someone and we have no purpose for it. That's why I don't know about it's condition. I keep it in the bus. Prabhupāda: So let who is coming, let him bring it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They'll be coming in about a month from now. I'm not at all sure of the condition of it. In America things like that are.... A very old one, it's probably about fifteen years old. One boy joined us and donated it. We couldn't even sell it. In America things like that, if they're used, once they are used, sufficiently used, no one will purchase. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ten dollars you can sell it like that for, twenty dollars. Every month or two we have to hold a garage sale because so many.... When the boys join I get them to donate everything they have. I send one man with them to their apartment. Usually they are sharing their apartment or house with some others, friends, and suddenly the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees come in and take everything out of the house, furniture... Prabhupāda: They feel glad. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Sometimes.... One time I was in Boulder, Colorado. So I meet this boy on the campus and in five minutes I convinced him to... Prabhupāda: I have seen in New York. Many tenants, they leave their whole possession and go away. I have seen it. And for the landlord it becomes a problem, how to cleanse this. I have seen it. All table, chairs, bedding, scattered in this way, and they went away. I have seen it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Colorado I convinced this one boy to join us. He was a musician, the leader of a band. So I only talked to him for a few minutes but he became convinced very quickly. So I asked him, "You're a musician. You have some instruments?" because these instruments are very valuable. He said, "Yes, I have some." I said, "Well, you should give them to Kṛṣṇa because everything that you give, then you'll get benefit. Even if sinfully you got these things previously, now everything will be turned to a positive, good use." He said, "Well, the thing is, my band, we're doing a program in the mountains, and they may be leaving with all the instruments." So I said, "Let's go." So I took him in the bus, and I took the bus to his house, and there was the people in his band, and they were about to come out of the house. They were already packed up. So I pulled the bus in front of the driveway and blocked them. Then I told him, "You bring all your members of your band into the bus." So then I preached to them. It turned out he owned all the equipment of the band, the microphones, everything. So they became very angry when they heard that he was going to become a Hare Kṛṣṇa. They were very, very angry, but somehow I made them agree, and they took all this equipment out. It was worth many thousands of dollars. They had to.... Their whole band was broken apart. So many times this has happened with these bands, that one member joins us and then they give all the instruments, microphone systems, everything. So when this happens, then we put everything in a garage and we hold a sale and sell everything. Usually they donate television sets... *Sudama: I had a similar experience, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Kansas with one college student who was a senior in commercial art. He had one big, large apartment and about five roommates, and he had all your pictures and pictures of Kṛṣṇa all on his wall, and Dhrstadyumna prabhu and I went and preached to him. And I began taking all the pictures down off his wall and said, "You are coming with us because you are a devotee of Kṛṣṇa." And he agreed, so we began moving everything, and he owned everything in the house, and all his friends protested at the door, "No, no. You cannot go. You cannot take all of your hi*-fi equipment and music..." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't love the friend; they love all of his things. Sudama: So we took all of his things in big trucks. We had to take furniture and everything. And he sold over one period of a week. And then all his friends began coming to the bus for evening āratika and prasāda, and two of his friends, they also became influenced and started chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa because they were left with nothing after he went away. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One boy who joined us in Boston... Prabhupāda: [break] Chewing the chewed. This is going on. Material world means chewing the chewed. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think this narrow path is smoother. Prabhupāda: Better. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...go ahead and get the projector do you think, new projector? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...government, Mr. Chaudhuri can do. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. As soon as you stop the land purchasing anyway can do. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the summer time the colleges are.... (kīrtana) (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 19, 1976, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: The stricture of nature's law, that is science. Is it not scientific effort? They will never be able to do so, but still, they are... To stop death, birth, death, old age, is very major problem, but even in small things you cannot do anything. Everywhere you are dependent. And still, they are very much proud that they are advancing in scientific knowledge so that they can overcome the stringent laws of nature and so on, so on. Durāśaya. It is called durāśaya, hope which will never be fulfilled. Is it not? Durāśaya. Śāstra, Bhāgavata, says, durāśaya. This is their foolishness. They are expecting something which will never be fulfilled. Therefore śāstra says, durāśaya. Now what they are doing about the moon planet? Harikeśa: They've forgotten about it. Sudāmā: Now they're trying for Mars. Prabhupāda: Just see. Hele dāntavān keuṭe.(?) A man was trying to capture snake. So there are snakes, hele. There are many snakes; they have no poison, especially the water snake, the hele. So hele dāntavān keuṭe.(?) Keuṭe means cobra. So one cannot catch up the poisonless snake, and he is attempting to capture cobra. They could not go to the moon planet, which is only 1,600,000 miles above the sun, and they are going to Venus, which is far, far away, still. How many miles the Venus is situated? They have committed some mistake. Harikeśa: Yes. Well, they say here it's 600,000 yojanas, which makes 48,000,000 miles. No, 480,000,000 miles above the sun. Prabhupāda: If they cannot reach sun... They are trying to go above the sun. (Someone enters) Bosen. Jaya. (Bengali) [break] It is giving quotation from *Vedas*. How to act on Vedic principle, that is called smṛti. Sometimes the original law is explained by one lawyer in detail. So that detailed explanation is like smṛti, and the original law is śruti. In that we have to bathe. Smṛti means which is explaining śruti to understand easily. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we should never think that smṛti is an interpretation. Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not inter... It is explanation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like sometimes the smārtas, they argue that if you quote smṛti, it is not as good as śruti. Prabhupāda: Yes. But smṛti... Just like the Māyāvādīs. They do not accept because their interpretation of Veda is different. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. So they say that smṛti is an interpretation. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't accept Bhagavad*-gītā, many of them. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what is our answer to such persons? Prabhupāda: We have got our own ācāryas. If you don't accept, I don't accept you. That is my... What can be done? Harikeśa: Madhvācārya made a commentary on the *Gītā* where he quoted a Sanskrit verse. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Harikeśa: He quoted a Vedic verse for every Bhagavad*-gītā verse to prove that Bhagavad-gītā is śruti. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Madhvācārya? Harikeśa: Or somebody like that. Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya. Harikeśa: Who? Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has quoted. Harikeśa: Rāmānujācārya. *Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has given quotation from śruti for every verse of Bhagavad*-gītā. (Someone enters and offers obeisances) You read from the... Bhavānanda: It starts off in big print, "Ācāryadeva Tridandi Swami Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Mahārāja. All learned men are aware that in the dark days of India when the Hindu religion was in great danger..." Prabhupāda: (laughs) This is nonsense. *Bhavānanda: "...our Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was born at Śrī Māyāpura, destined to remove the dark clouds which had overshadowed true religious thinking by traveling alone on foot throughout the length and breadth of India. Preaching His gospel of love, He brought about a religious upheaval which put an end to all religious conflicts and suicidal vissiferous(?) tendencies. The benign influence of His love philosophy made the whole of India a spiritually united cultural domain. Soul*-enrapturing kīrtana music was organized from one end of the country to another. A neo-humanism based on love regarded as the highest objective of human existence held sway. The difference between man and man was forgotten, and the fundamental unity of human nature and human destiny was stressed upon. But in the early nineteenth century, true religion was at a very low ebb due to lack of proper publicity of literature and also for want of great ācāryas to propagate the cults in their true aspect. It was a dark period for the Caitanya or Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism when it fell from its highest transcendentalism to the lowest possible degradation because of so many abuses and evil practices which crept into it through plenty of pseudo-followers. Vaiṣṇavism was almost abandoned by the educated section of people. Its literature was hardly read. Kīrtana was looked upon not as a form of prayer but as a means of gratification by people of loose morals. Most of the Vaiṣṇava followers of the period lost their high standard of morality, their loving aestheticism, their intellectual superiority and devotional fervor, which were the main characteristics of the previous masters. The influx of Western ideas came in, and English educated people fell into the hands of Christians. Fortunately, at that time, we got a great Vaiṣṇava savant and scholar, Ṭhākura Kedāranātha Bhaktivinoda, who wrote widely and successfully created an interest among the educated public in Vaiṣṇava religion and literature. His discovery of Śrīdhāma Māyāpura, the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, which was so long hidden from the public eye, gave a new impetus to its propagation. The age of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism set in. Thereafter, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Ṭhākura took hold of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism with a vow to propagate it in its true perspective, even as it was practiced with unparalleled and unprecedented transcendentalism by Śrī Rūpa and Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmīs, followers of Śrī Caitanya. In proper time, he got a great personality who readily shouldered the..." Prabhupāda: Just see now. "He got a great personality." He is that personality. He'll also prove that. Bhavānanda: "...who shouldered the burden of the mighty mission of Śrīla Sarasvatī Ṭhākura. That great personality is President Ācāryadeva, his holiness Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktivilāsa..." Prabhupāda: But you... Jaya morena apne morol.(?) This great personality, why he is not accepted by other disciples? How he became a great personality? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. If one proclaims himself to be the king and no one... Prabhupāda: No one accepts him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of king? Prabhupāda: That is called in Bengali, jaya mane apna morol.(?) Morol means the leader of the society, of the village. Here there are morol. So in the village nobody cares for him, and he declares that "I am morol." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That person is insane. Prabhupāda: Nobody cares for him, and he is thinking that "great personality." Where is his greatness? Who knows him? Just see. So he is making a plan to declare himself a great personality. Bhavānanda: It goes on to explain why he is such a great personality. Prabhupāda: So why explain? If he is great personality, everyone should know. Why he is trying to explain? What is the use of explanation? If a great personality is unknown, and he has to be known by explanatory notes, then how he is great personality? Bhavānanda: Just like the President of the United States. He doesn't have to say, "I am the President." Everyone knows. Prabhupāda: Yes. Go on reading. *Bhavānanda: "...Tīrtha Mahārāja, who was then known as guru*-preṣṭha, most dear to his guru, and also known to the disciples of Śrīla Sarasvatī Ṭhākura as Kuñjada, giver of shelter. In all the missionary works and the management of the maṭhas, Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja was the right hand of his Gurudeva. By his constant, unstinted service rendered to Śrīla Prabhupāda, whose most intimate disciple he was, he almost became a counterpart of that great saint." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. This is not... "Counterpart." Jumping... Trying to equal... Prabhupāda: So those who are not accepting him, so they are all fools. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is very bad, Prabhupāda. It says he wanted to be... He almost became counterpart. That means he is trying to become equal or superior to guru. Prabhupāda: Superior. Bhavānanda: In this first sentence, superior, that Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, his whole mission was dependent upon this great personality, Tīrtha Mahārāja. Not that Bhaktisiddhānta was a great personality, but that the great personality is Tīrtha Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: He has written like that? Bhavānanda: He said, "In proper time he got a great personality who readily shouldered the burden of the mighty mission of Sarasvatī Ṭhākura." That's implying that he is the one responsible. Prabhupāda: He says... his impression is like that. Then? Bhavānanda: "In all preaching work, everybody felt the sober but encouraging hand of Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja. Śrīla Prabhupāda never did anything without consulting him first or without his consent. So all the desires for future work of Prabhupāda Śrīla Sarasvatī..." Prabhupāda: He does not mention his name. He says... All right, go. His sannyāsī name is... All right. Then? *Bhavānanda: "All the desires for future work of Śrīla Prabhupāda Sarasvatī Ṭhākura used to come to the present ācāryadeva as an impulse first, which he translated into action at once. In spite of a hundred hindrances from so*-called religionists with a vision of a future worldwide mission, Śrīla Prabhupāda established Śrī Caitanya Maṭha at Śrī Māyāpura, the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, on the Phālguna Pūrṇimā day, the seventh March, 1918, which was a red-letter day in the history of theistic religious revival in this age. He started a countrywide movement to carry the message of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to every door. In a hectic manner within a couple of years he preached Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism throughout India and sent disciples to England, Germany, and other parts of Europe and Burma to preach the message of Śrī Caitanya and establish sixty-four branches under the name of Śrī Gauḍīya Maṭha throughout India and abroad, and a vast literature flowed through his versatile pen. The large number of publications in different languages and the vigorous missionary activities and door-to-door preaching by the sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs of the Maṭha, who held meetings in the remotest villages, duly spread Śrī Caitanya's teachings, which today are followed in every part of India. His songs are sung in chorus and a great interest is created among the intelligentsia of India. After having become the president of the institution..." In this last paragraph, all of these activities of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, there is no mention of his name. His whole mission, there is actually no mention of his name, that he is the one who has done it. "After having become the president of the institution, Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja has been traveling throughout India and Pakistan preaching the devotional cult of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and he has come in contact with many savants of present India who are all struck with reverent admiration for his deep knowledge of philosophy. Dr. Rādhākamal Mukherjee, vice chancellor of Lucknow University, remarks, 'There is no more distinguished and erudite interpreter of Śrī Caitanya's Vaiṣṇava thought than His Holiness Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja.' " Prabhupāda: And what is Rādhākamal Mukherjee? *Bhavānanda: " 'He has been a prolific writer and commentator and has traveled and discoursed widely in different parts of India. His profound illuminative discourses have everywhere created a genuine interest in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and in the dynamic religious movement he represents.' There may not be any doubt among the well*-informed people that the Śrī Caitanya Maṭha, with its branches, Śrī Gauḍīya Maṭhas, throughout India and abroad, have been propagating the greatest religion, which, from a realistic point of view, has helped to build up a true civilization. Today, due to the activities of Śrī Caitanya Maṭha, a spiritual thirst has been created, especially among the deep-thinking and educated people of the world, for people from all over the world are coming to this institution to learn and follow the great religion of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and to understand the practical Indian way of life. Today the headquarter extends over a mile, with beautiful temples, yet standing in an atmosphere of absorbing silence of meditation and worship, surrounded on all sides by emerald green paddy fields and the Ganges flowing hard by, far from the madding crowd's strife and strain. 'Māyāpura is now an enchanted place, the abode of peace. The atmosphere of the place is charming. The chanting of the holy name of Hari all day and night takes one to a celestial place.' " Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't hear the chanting from their maṭha all day and night. Bhavānanda: No, it's only from here. "It is more heavenly than heaven itself. It is the sacred Vṛndāvana of Bengal, hallowed by the dancing steps of the Lord, and its air is purified by His noble call to prayer. Whoever pays a visit to her will leave her with regret, and those who have not yet visited the place will carry their regrets unto death." Prabhupāda: So he is making some propaganda that he is the... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, just like in the woods the jackal is always crying that he is the king, but who cares for him? What is his qualification? Prabhupāda: So do we require to...? There is no use. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, our answer is all of these books. Prabhupāda: That's all. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our answer is twenty*-four-hour kīrtana, prasādam distribution... Prabhupāda: And you keep it very carefully in the file. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should answer him by our preaching, by our vigorous preaching. Bhavānanda: Many people must be asking him, "What about this ISKCON maṭha?" That's why he is... It's driving him mad. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's speaking against us all the time. He never says anything good about us. Prabhupāda: No, he is very envious about us. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I think now he must have come to the conclusion that there is no way to stop us, so he is thinking how he can... I have a hunch he is thinking how he can become connected in some way to get some benefit. That's why he is sending this man, this maṭha commander. Because he sees now there is no way he can stop us, so he is thinking, "How can I connect somehow with them? Because they have so much money and they're going to be doing so many big things, I must establish a connection with them." Prabhupāda: So he wants to establish connection with us and... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think so. Prabhupāda: And describe that he has... Just like Mādhava Mahārāja also attempted. This is the attempt. So what we have to do in this connection? Let them do whatever nonsense they want. We shall do our own business. And we have no business to propagate that we are making... People already know us all over the world. So... But suppose if he makes an attempt to mix with us so that he can take advantage, his main policy is that we may go there. That is his... Because if we do not go, then all their propaganda makes him not very important if we go there..., if we do not go there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why does he depend upon our going there to become important? Prabhupāda: Because he is visualizing that by our propaganda throughout the whole world, people will come here. That he has already seen. And if we do not go there, then he becomes insignificant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we don't means if anyone from all over the world who comes... Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Bhavānanda: People are attracted by the Westerners coming to the maṭha. So if we're up at that maṭha, any of us, and then they say, "Just see." They say in Bengali, "Just see. They are coming. To see our guru mahārāja, they are coming." Prabhupāda: That was the policy of Mādhava Mahārāja and Śrīdhara Mahārāja, that "Although Bhaktivedanta Swami is propagating throughout, he is subordinate to us, under our instruction." So all these three... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A real dream world they are living in. Bhavānanda: Here they have even included our temple in their domain. "The headquarters extends for over a mile with beautiful temples and paddy fields." When we put up our wall, then they will not be able to include us. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The point is that no matter how much they press for any kind of mixing, our first point is: "You come here and visit us." And he'll never do that. Never do that. And we should not... We already invited him twice, so we don't have to give any more invitation. We should simply say verbally, "Let Tīrtha Mahārāja come here as we have come so many times. Then we can speak about some kind of cooperation." Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: I remember, Śrīla... You walked there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: From here you walked all the way... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twice Prabhupāda has visited and personally requested, and he won't come here. And now... The thing is now he might say, "If you give it to me in writing, I will come," but we'll say, "We have already personally come. Our spiritual master has come twice personally, and now you have to simply come. The invitation is already given. Now Tīrtha Mahārāja should come here." He'll never do that. Bhavānanda: He'll never come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. So then that way we don't have to cooperate. Prabhupāda: So this paper you keep, because these rascals they may create some trouble. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of trouble? Prabhupāda: Trouble like this, just like he was detained. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was that? Bhavānanda: When I had that... Prabhupāda: They can file some complaint inducing something. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it was very interesting. Last night that complaint, my lawyer was this man who was sitting right here last night, this old man, Nandulal? He was my lawyer. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Bhavānanda: And he is the one who asked me, "Who is behind this case?" He asked me when we brought him from Krishnanagar. Because he is considered the best lawyer in Nadia, so we brought him in, and as we were leaving, after the first time I appeared, he said, "There is someone... This man is a farmer, laborer. Who has put him up to this? There is someone behind this." So he asked me, "Was it Śrīdhara? Someone of the Gauḍīya Maṭha is behind this." But he came last night with them, this lawyer, old man, he came with them. So they were definitely the ones behind it. Prabhupāda: Hm? Bhavānanda: They were definitely the ones behind that case. They somehow got their hands on that man and had him bring charges, even though the whole thing was dropped. Prabhupāda: Who was behind them? Bhavānanda: Well, this man, he mentioned Śrīdhara Mahārāja's name. He said, "Some Gauḍīya Maṭha person." Prabhupāda: He's a very good lawyer. Bhavānanda: Yes. He's retired, but he's the most respected lawyer in Nadia. So he mentioned. Prabhupāda: So he was in our side. Bhavānanda: Yes. So he had mentioned, "Someone from the Gauḍīya Maṭha." He said, "You have many enemies. This man would not have thought of this kind of thing, to do this kind of thing. Someone had to..." Prabhupāda: Who? *Bhavānanda: When I had to go to court to appear for having kidnapped that woman and her son, that I was holding the woman and her son by force*-the husband placed charges-so this lawyer said, "That... He was a simple man, a little crazy. He wouldn't have done it or had the money to do it. Someone with some more intelligence, higher intelligence, is behind him, goading him on, telling him what to do." He asked who did I think it was? He mentioned Gauḍīya Maṭha, and he asked for any, did I know any particular personalities. I said, "No." He said, "What about Śrīdhara Swami?" Someone. Prabhupāda: So if Śrīdhara Swami was behind... Maybe. There is no... Bhavānanda: The point is that they can make so much trouble like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Small troubles. *Bhavānanda: Yes, little harassment. Then I even... Of course, I don't know. I even question... Just like that Lalitā Bose, that whole incident which Jayapatākā told you about. Who knows? She is so influenced by... She is big, so*-called Vaiṣṇava, and known in so many circles in Bengal. Who is influencing her? You know? Anyway, we simply stay on our land and develop our program. He is going mad. Prabhupāda: Hm? Bhavānanda: He is becoming mad. Prabhupāda: Who? Bhavānanda: Tīrtha Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: (laughs) How? Bhavānanda: Well, the more he hears. Because he gets so many reports. So many people are coming here, and no one is going there. Even... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His mentality is becoming like Kaṁsa, I think. At every moment he is thinking, "This Prabhupāda..." Prabhupāda: So who...? Somebody inquired him that "What is this called? So many people are coming." Huh? Bhavānanda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He knows no one is coming there. Not very many more people are coming there than are here. Because most of the people come here... Prabhupāda: That they are realizing, that "We are becoming insignificant gradually." That they are realizing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one goes to Mādhava Mahārāja's maṭha at all. The only maṭha that they still visit is that Śrī Caitanya Maṭha. And they have no money, so that place is becoming so dilapidated that no one is going there either. And there's no life there. There's no young people. There are no... Prabhupāda: No, how they can? They cannot feed them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were speaking this morning, Bhavānanda Mahārāja and myself that, we were wondering if we could make like... You know, so many people come here to eat prasādam. On the weekends, at least two to three thousand people come. So we were wondering whether it would be proper to make some kind of propaganda that "If anyone wants to enroll their children here, their young boys in our gurukula, that they can..." Prabhupāda: So a similar counterpart leaflet you should, that "International Society for Krishna Consciousness, world organization, established by His Divine Grace, and anyone can come here and take foodstuff. We have got arrangement," like this. In suitable words you write and issue another pamphlet. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bengali. Prabhupāda: In Bengali and in English. Which may not touch there, but we write in our own way that "By the order of his guru he went to America. Then he..." That's a fact. What is the fact, that should be written. Give the list of the books and so on, so on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: List of the temples. *Prabhupāda: Yes, temples. And "He is the ācārya of the present Gauḍīya*-sampradāya." Bhavānanda: If we simply state the facts, there is no need for us to subtly infer or to exaggerate because your activities are so glorious that... Prabhupāda: And invite anyone who is interested to become devotee. We shall provide place, food, education to the children. In this way make another statement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm just wondering... I was thinking whether we... Prabhupāda: Without touching them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is... Of course, we'll do this also. What about, like, all of these people coming? This is my point, that so many poor people are coming here. Practically they don't even have enough money to take care of their children properly. So whether we can make some verbal announcements and whether we can set up a little table at the prasādam pavilion that "Anyone who would like to enroll their sons in our school can do so"? Because many of these people can't take care of their children properly. I'm thinking when they see our boys they may want to give their sons. Prabhupāda: Yes, they will give. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that a good program? Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can get many... I think we could get many, many men that way. Prabhupāda: The children, they are enjoying. In the morning they are... That is wanted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they're in ecstasy. Bhavānanda: All day they enjoy. When they are sweeping the road, they don't know that there's difference between work and play. Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhavānanda: To them, sweeping the road is their play. They love it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These children are much more hard working than the children in America. Like these few American boys that are here, they cannot compare with these Bengali boys. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their service attitude is much, much better. I think we should... Prabhupāda: By association they will be also. Bhavānanda: Yes, they have also improved. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jagaman has. Bhavānanda: Jagaman is wonderful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He works very hard. So I think we should try to get as many of these young boys as we can. We should use the facility of this prasādam distribution. Prabhupāda: The thing is that whether we should... This pamphlet, I don't think it has got any value. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has no value, Prabhupāda. What we should do is build this temple. If we just build this temple... This is my point. Let us build this temple immediately. Once this temple is built, everything is finished. All the glowworms are completely extinguished. There will be nothing left. They can do anything they want, and nothing will matter. If they have a 350*-foot building with escalators, with huge compounds, then everything is ended. Prabhupāda: So do like that, like America. Bhavānanda: He can come here and stand outside and scream, "I am the ācāryadeva." Just like in America so many people are saying, "I am Napoleon." No one... Prabhupāda: That everyone says. That is not... Bhavānanda: We have to build this temple because... Prabhupāda: So make something like American which is wonderful for the world. So you are Americans. You must do something. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we build this temple with escalators and the people go in the temple and they go up the escalator... Harikeśa: They'll never come back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you think that they're going to then go down the road to go into Śrī Caitanya Maṭha? Why would... What is the point of it after doing something like that? They'll never go. Prabhupāda: And if you can arrange some... What is called, that? This helicopter. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Helicopter. Prabhupāda: Bringing our men from Dum Dum airport to our roof. Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: There are at least four roofs like this. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. The people will see. All the pilgrims will see. Like the demigods flying in. *Prabhupāda: At least we can make a show*-it is coming twice in a day and going twice in a day. And they will see that "Oh, so many people are coming." *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you have to... The thing is we're simply waiting for your go*-ahead, because unless we get the land and we can begin, we can't start this. Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa has sent him. Let him come. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We shouldn't delay. If we... This is a little pamphlet. If we issue a counter*-pamphlet, it's not... I don't think it's such an important thing. The thing to do is to do something... Prabhupāda: Yes, practical. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...so significant that this becomes useless. Not that we issue another thing of this nature. Harikeśa: This is already useless. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I mean, what is the use of issuing another piece of paper against this paper? Let us make a skyscraper temple; then they can think what will be the comparison between this... Bhavānanda: On every level. Even the people this invitation was issued to. But they come, and when they come on Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura's appearance day, they all come down the road to here to visit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really. Bhavānanda: Even he gives off so much energy inviting this one and that one, they all come. They all want to come down the road. They at least come down for darśana. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They do? Bhavānanda: Yes, they have to. They've all been here. They all know it. They come with different personalities, different friends... In Krishnanagar, we are like the cinema in terms of entertainment. As soon as any man, any official, government official, his friends come from Calcutta, immediately they get in one of the government jeeps and they drive out here and come to see the ISKCON Maṭha, Māyāpura Chandrodaya Mandir. Immediately. So many men, they come all the time with their friends from Calcutta. Same thing in Navadvīpa. They come for an evening's... Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: Fully satisfied. The woman puts on her sari, the man dresses up in his kurta... Prabhupāda: So our arrangement should be to give them some prasadam, very nice treatment. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've got to do this. We've got to do this. Prabhupāda: And if important man should write something in the visitor's... Reception. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There should be a reception, proper receptionist. Prabhupāda: So where the reception? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will sit? Bhavānanda: We'll make some arrangement. Prabhupāda: Make it immediately. Reception. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Nitāicānda is really first class. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nitāicānda is very good. Prabhupāda: Nitāicānda plus somebody very educated should be there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who do we have like that that speaks Bengali? Bhavānanda: Subhaga. Oh, they love Subhaga. He preaches in the temple at the book table during the busy hours. So many people buy books, and all interested. He's very... Prabhupāda: Subhaga. Subhaga make the chief of the reception. And Nitāicānda his assistant, and another, a foreigner. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nitāicānda is in charge of the building. Bhavānanda: He has so much to do, anyway, Nitāicānda. Subhaga is best. Prabhupāda: Subhaga and two foreigners. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As assistants. Hm. Prabhupāda: Make that arrangement. He is very good boy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he is really good. Prabhupāda: And he has understood the philosophy. He has got ten years experience of London. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I met him in the London airport and I told him, "Why don't you come to India?" 'Cause I saw him, I thought he'd be really helpful here. So, Prabhupāda, another thing, is there any need to increase our prasādam distribution? Right now about a thousand people come. Prabhupāda: No, what... They are coming, but if you see that more are coming, then increase. There is no question of advertising. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There isn't. We shouldn't advertise. *Prabhupāda: Rather, you make some arrangement that there'll be prasādam*-selling there, and anyone comes within the temple give him something. Just like I give here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we don't do that at all. Bhavānanda: Everyone who comes in the temple, they get that miṣṭi baḍā.. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone? Bhavānanda: Everyone. Prabhupāda: Miṣṭi baḍā? Bhavānanda: Miṣṭi baḍā we give, gur and peanut with little coconut in it and masalā. We're famous now in the whole area, even Jayapatākā was seeing one government official in Krishnanagar, and he said, "Did you bring me any of that baḍā?" They all want. Prabhupāda: Something must be given. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, if we get a good cook like Shantilal and he can cook hundreds of kachori and we can sell, and then the next room have one men who serves them prasādam, everyone will come to take prasādam. Prabhupāda: Keep nice water, sitting place. They will take. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of sitting place? On the floor with mats, or benches and tables? Prabhupāda: Benches, table will be nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Better. Like in a South Indian house. The South Indian restaurants, they have those... Of course, those are fancy, like in Vṛndāvana. In the South Indian restaurant they always have a table with marble top. Then they put a leaf on it. Very nice. Harikeśa: There is room down there. That big room can be used as like a restaurant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where? Harikeśa: The next floor down on the end, where they sometimes have class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda wants it up there where they sell the prasādam. Bhavānanda: They will buy in some leaf cup and go next door and have a place to sit down and take it, and then water to wash their... Actually there's a pump. Everything is right there. Prabhupāda: You will find such confectioner's shop, sitting place and eating. Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like that. Bhavānanda: Just like in Navadvīpa. Harikeśa: They have that near the Gopīnātha temple in Vṛndāvana. Everybody goes there. That is very big. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should make a nice sweet, sweetmeats also. Harikeśa: Lugloos is big there. Those lugloos. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should make many types of sweetmeats. There should be so many preparations, all offered to the Deity. People can purchase mahā*-prasādam. It will be very big. When you read in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, every time Caitanya Mahāprabhu's devotees are purchasing prasādam from Jagannātha temple, all the time. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the system. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It sounds like they make a huge quantity at Purī, huge quantities of foodstuffs. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Any time you can get one thousand man's eatables. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Any time? But we only offer one little plate at ārati. Prabhupāda: No, that you can increase as the demand is increased. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is such a demand in Purī? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone goes. They do not cook. He purchases prasādam and eat. Everyone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's so famous. Yes, whenever someone visits there they always bring back prasādam from Jagannātha. *Prabhupāda: It is... Fifty*-six time, prasādam is offered there, fifty-six time. Harikeśa: It's constant. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: It's constantly being offered all day long. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Once offered, ārati is performed. Then it is taken away, washed, the room. Again half and hour after... Why half an hour? Fifteen minutes after. Throughout the whole day and night, fifty*-six times. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Night also. *Prabhupāda: Night..., not night. But up to late night. So fifty*-six time, chāppānna, within twenty-four hours, so just imagine. Harikeśa: Four or five times an hour. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we have to do that at this temple. Prabhupāda: Every fifteen minutes new set, prasādam. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You need a whole lot of Shantilals to do that. Prabhupāda: And these ingredients are supplied by Jagannātha's own field. They grow it, and they... So there is no difficulty. They grow and they sell. They get money so they can maintain the establishment. A long time. There are potters. Daily they will supply for each prasādam a new pot. It cannot be used again. So few people purchase with pot, original pot, and they have got a fixed price. This big pot, say, five rupees; this pot, two rupees; this pot, one rupee. So as you like, you can purchase. Very nice system. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You went there sometimes to take prasādam? *Prabhupāda: Yes, I became a guest. A gentleman was our tenant, and he gave me introduction letter to his brother*-in-law. He was a pleader in Jagannātha Purī. So he received me very well. So he offered me a lunch, and I saw there was something, a small ball-like, in the pot, bowl. So I asked, "What is this?" He said, "It is meat." (laughs) He was eating meat, so he thought it is good reception, the guest is offered nice meat. So I said, "No, you... I never took meat. I never expected..." [break] Then "Never mind." Then I stopped eating there. At that time I was a boy. After appearing in my B.A. examination there was holiday, so I went to Jagannātha Purī in 1920 or something like that. So I was married in 1918. So some of the friends of my wife, they said that "Your husband now gone. He is not coming back." So after returning I understood she was crying. (laughs) So anyway, then I used to purchase prasādam in the market. They were bringing, and I was eating. I stayed for three, four days. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that when you were very young you always used to calculate what was the cost of a ticket to Purī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Every day I was seeing how to go to Jagannātha Purī and how to go to Vṛndāvana. At that time a fare was, for Vṛndāvana, four or five rupees, and similarly for Jagannātha Purī. So I was thinking, "When I shall go?" That's all. I took first opportunity to go to Jagannātha Purī after my examination, and in business connection when I went to Agra, then I first of all took the opportunity to go to Vṛndāvana from Agra. This was in 1925, and I visited Jagannātha Purī sometime in 1920. And '25 I went to Vṛndāvana. I remember, in those days I was sitting within the car, and there was some prasādam. One monkey entered and took away everything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the train compartment. Prabhupāda: They are very clever. Many times in Vṛndāvana the monkeys have taken away from my hand foodstuff. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While you were eating. Prabhupāda: Hm. Thrice... At least thrice, four times I remember. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You wanted them to take it? You were offering... Prabhupāda: No, suppose a big monkey comes and takes. You are stunned. (laughter) You have to give him. No other way. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They will attack otherwise. *Prabhupāda: In Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple I was cooking the other room. So although the door was closed, he knew, he opened the door and took away my prasādam. Sometimes they would take away... (door opens) Come on. The, what is called, dough? For...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cāpāṭis? Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi. So they will eat that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Raw dough. Prabhupāda: You gave him some book, this Surendra? Jayapatākā: That was a long time ago I gave one book. Since then you wrote that don't give any books, but that was a long time ago I gave. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So you have talked and dealt with him? Jayapatākā: He came to me and said he wanted a job here. He said he wanted to be our manager, this and that. And then he was hinting about that they were getting one wage, allowance, so he was expecting to get some allowance also, a little more. Prabhupāda: So he is coming now. What is the purpose? Jayapatākā: He wanted to be our..., to work for us. To work for Your Divine Grace, maybe. Prabhupāda: How did you find him by dealing with him? Jayapatākā: I didn't find him. He found me. Prabhupāda: No, no, how you have...? How do you...? Jayapatākā: Oh, how did I find... How did...? Well, I know that influentially he is, in the district level, he is very influential. I mean to say that he has got very good relations with all the government people and all the local people. Whenever I go somewhere to invite them for any festival, any function, they would always speak highly of Surendra dāsa and that he had just about a week ago before, he had already invited them for the Caitanya Maṭha. So he is very active in that way, something which we don't have time or understanding to do, so many of us. He knows how to receive people and make them feel very nice and show them around. He has a nice personality like that, and he is very active. Prabhupāda: So if you engage, him do you think we shall get some good service? Jayapatākā: I don't know the... I know that he is able to perform good service. As far as whether he'll... Other people tell me that since he's been working for the Caitanya Maṭha... (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 20, 1976, Mäyäpura *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad bhāgavate kiṁ vā paraiḥ. There is no other literature required. Everything is perfect, word to word. What is that verse? Kalau naṣṭa*-dṛśām? Śāstrījī: Eṣa purāṇārko 'dhunoditaḥ. Prabhupāda: Simply that is the only light in this age. *Śāstrījī: Śrīmad*-bhāgavataṁ purāṇam amalaṁ yad vaiṣṇavānāṁ priyam. Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇavānāṁ priyam. (Bengali) So some professor has... [break] ...with this authorized literature. Somebody has not said? Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Actually that is the fact. Therefore we don't like to read any books. Dr. Wolf, he is suggesting... Simply waste of time. Simply waste of time, except Vedic literature, all this nonsense. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Place for the crows. Prabhupāda: Bas. That's all. Not for the swans. They are admitting. Otherwise how it is selling unless they are admitting the value? Maybe a few, but they are realizing. I told you that one young man, very respectable, he came to me in airport, maybe Japan or some place. So he said, "Swamiji, can I talk with you?" "And yes, why not?" "Where you have got so vast knowledge?" And "This is not my knowledge. I am simply translating. That's all. It is Vyāsadeva's knowledge. It is not my knowledge." Mean... He appreciated the vast stock of knowledge. That is a fact. And this rascal says, even in India, that Bhāgavata is not written by Vyāsadeva. It is latest, within Christian era. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last thousand years. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Written within the last thousand years. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You know that? They say like that. So many rascals are there. And this is the only shelter, these, our centers, to be protected from all these rascals. These ISKCON centers are the only shelter. So you have to maintain it very nicely. There is no other shelter. All bogus more or less, all bogus. But you have to, not to... You quote, but the purpose of the verse you present reasonably. If you simply quote, it will not be simply very appealing. "Oh, they are simply..." Sometimes the Westerner criticize that, my Godbrother, Sadānanda? He was criticizing that "Your presentation..." "Your" means our, this Vaiṣṇava literature. "Simply you quote some Sanskrit verse, that's all." So these Sanskrit verses should be explained for understanding of the modern people. If you simply quote, it is not very appealing. In Durban..., Durban? We went to that university. You remember? That Ārya*-samājī? He was speaking that "This is Hindu conception. Hindu conception." And what do you mean by Hindu conception? A child grows to become a boy. Is that Hindu conception? It is science. When Kṛṣṇa said, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13], that's a fact. It is applicable to the Hindus, to the Muslim, to the Christian, everyone. Why do you say it is Hindu conception? So you have to present in that way. They may not think that it is Hindu conception. Because they are all rascals, unless you explain it, that this is meant for everyone, they will misunderstand that Bhāgavata is for the Hindus or for the Indians. It is for everyone. But one must realize. There is no question of Hindu conception or Muslim conception. (rattling sound) So this will go on whole day? "Cut-cut-cut-cut"? Bhavānanda: Morning and evening. *Prabhupāda: Your party has sold twenty*-five thousand big books? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: After three weeks. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So far this month. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-five thousand. I never thought that these books will be so well received. It is beyond my imagination. I thought a few copies may be sold. Sudāmā: Remember, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Tamāla, he inaugurated in Seattle, Washington, the saṅkīrtana party... Prabhupāda: No, he inaugurated from San Francisco. We were printing these Back to Godhead, five hundred. And he was most of the... You were selling? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually it was 3,500, and we were selling 2,700 of them. Prabhupāda: Oh. Then Brahmānanda... I asked Brahmānanda. He was in charge. I asked him that "Why don't you print more?" I understood that he has got the potency to sell more. So print in regular way, in that way we arranged. What is that press? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, mimeograph. Prabhupāda: Mimeograph. I was printing. Yes. Then he inquired this Dai Nippon, many place. At last he said that "Unless we print twenty thousand, they will not take up this work." I said, "Immediately take it." From three thousand to twenty thousand immediately. At that time they were giving us ten cent or less than. Sudāmā: Ten cent. It was around ten cents. Prabhupāda: So in this way. Then how you'll increase? Jayapatākā: Now you can sell whole sets. Hari-śauri: Now more than one million. Sudāmā: And in the years to come, many millions. Prabhupāda: Hm? Sudāmā: Many millions in the years to come. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is good pote... Jayapatākā: Many people ask for bound volume of the whole year, Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: But there is no remnants; *we sell everything. Generally when there is some remaining copies, the publisher bound it up for future sale, reference. [break] Vedānta*-sūtra, that is the topmost philosophy. So that first verse, athāto brahma jijñāsā. In this human form of life there is no other business-simply to inquire about Brahman. This is the fact. If anyone wants to fulfill the human form of life as distinguished from animal life, this is the only business, brahma-jijñāsā. And the whole civilization is on this basis. Therefore first brahmacārī, how to understand Brahman. So the children of human society is trained up, same principle, how to understand Brahman. So yesterday with that gentleman I told, "Where you got the sand?" Our beginning talk was that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where you got the? Prabhupāda: Sand. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sand, yes, yes. Yesterday morning. *Prabhupāda: I knew it, that they were preparing some sand, because Dr. Bose had a bottle factory. So he was melting the sand. Therefore I asked him. You cannot manufacture anything. You simply collect the ingredients given by God and you can transfer into some other form. You cannot manufacture. This building is also the same way. You have got the cement, the wood, the iron. Wherefrom you have got that? It is Kṛṣṇa's property. So those who are manufacturing or constructing big, big houses for their living, they are simply eating their sinful activities. Ye pacanty ātma*-kāraṇāt [Bg. 3.13]. We are also... They can say that "You are also con..." But we are not doing it for ourself. It is for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore karma and bhakti apparently looks the same activity, but one is for Kṛṣṇa, another is for one's personal use. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpāḥ. What is that verse? You know? Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt. Hm? What is that book? Oh. Today there is no fog, or there is, that side, fog. [break] ...all convinced that our only business is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Huh? That is required. We have no other business. "We" means we human beings. We have no other business. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, when someone comes to the stage of being convinced like that, that there is no other business, what is that stage called? *Prabhupāda: That is called svarūpa*-siddhi. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. This realization, that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa," this stage. And from here Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching begins. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very exalted. *Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. So you have to preach all over the world that "You are simply wasting time by so many department of knowledge. You are so foolish, rascal." Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Simply wasting time. I think I explained that to that gentleman last morning? He said in one hour, two hour you should devote... Not two hour. Twenty*-four hour. Did I not say? Yes. Because that is the only business. We have no other business. Our Society is practically demonstrating that this is the only business and no other business. We therefore do not try even to earn our livelihood. That is the natural instinct of every animal. But we do not try even for that. Is it not? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Transcendental platform. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them see practically. We are not busy how to go to the office, how to the business place. We are not interested. We are simply interested for maṅgala ārati, for class, for chanting, dancing. That's all. Practically see. We are not going to any office or any business. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yet we're still living in a palace. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them see it. We are living in such a palace that everyone is envious. They ask in America that "You people, you do not do anything. How do you live so, like this?" Do they not? Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. The storekeeper says. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And when we tell them, "We will also teach you how to do nothing also and live in a palace," they say, "Oh, no, thank you. That I do not want. I want to work hard." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is called worms of the stool. You see? If you take this worm from the stool, "Why you are living in stool? Come here," "No, no. I go back there." You'll see. The pig eating stool, ask him, "Take halavā. Why you are eating?" "No, no. I like it very much." This is māyā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So sometimes when a devotee goes, joins Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then leaves again and goes back to the material world, its just like a pig going back to the stool. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. The materialism and spiritualism is explained by Rūpa Gosvāmī. There is bird, cātaka. So they drink water when the rain falls, and otherwise they will starve. They will never accept any water from this earth. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is actually such a bird. Prabhupāda: A devotee will never accept materialism, even if he dies of starvation. You'll see so many still. They are sticking to this principle. There are still many saintly persons in India. They do that. They don't care for any bodily care. "Some food comes; I shall eat. Never mind." Still you'll find. They are sitting in their place and chanting or meditating without any concern for bodily necessities. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We see, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you also have no such concern, but just to deliver the whole world you are taking on this concern. Prabhupāda: This is for Kṛṣṇa. We are constructing the buildings and begging money or..., and..., only for this purpose: people may become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the only idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that bhajanānandī and goṣṭhyānandī? Prabhupāda: Bhajanānandī is not so important than goṣṭhyānandī. Bhajanānandī is doing for himself, and goṣṭhyānandī is doing for all living being. If you prepare some rasagullā for you, and if you prepare rasagullā for mass of people, then who is better? Rasagullā is good, but if you prepare for yourself only, then that is also good. But one who is preparing for so many hundreds and thousands is better. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was just reading a verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā this morning. There's a... I don't know the Sanskrit, but the English is, "He who works for the welfare of others." Part of the verse mentions like that. "A liberated soul works for the welfare of others." Bhavānanda: But some people, especially here, they can understand you prepare rasagullās for the mass of people, but they don't like that you prepare rasagullā for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hm? Bhavānanda: They want that you should prepare rasagullā for the mass of people but they don't like it if you're preparing rasagullā to give to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: That is Vivekananda, daridra*-nārāyaṇa-sevā. The answer is that if you do not prepare rasagullā for Kṛṣṇa, then there will be no supply of rasagullā. So everything will be finished. Because bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt [Bg. 3.13]. Anyone who is preparing rasagullā for himself or expanded himself, so they simply become implicated with sinful activities. So if you are... Suppose if you prepare rasagullā, stealing from the shopkeeper sugar and..., then how long you will go on? One day you'll be captured. Stena eva sa ucyate [Bg. 3.12]. What is that verse? Stena eva sa ucyate. (Bengali) Yajña-puruṣa. Real point is to satisfy. You cannot supply rasagullā, but if you supply rasagullā as prasādam, then the rasagullā-eater is benefited, you are benefited, and Kṛṣṇa is pleased. Jayapatākā: But some devotees say that "In cooking rasagullā for Kṛṣṇa and the masses, I got my hand burnt. So now I want to practice on my own how to make rasagullā. When I become expert, then again I'll make for the masses." *Prabhupāda: You can prepare for Kṛṣṇa so that your hands will be saved. Because you are thinking in that way, that "Let me prepare for myself," therefore your hands is burned. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma*-kāraṇāt [Bg. 3.13]. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's seven o'clock now, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So we have to go down? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not have to. Whatever you like. Prabhupāda: As you like. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We like what you like. Prabhupāda: So there will be rain. And if there is rain now, it is good. For these food grains. It is very good. Jayapatākā: Good for everything but the masuri. Prabhupāda: Well, masuri is not very important. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is masuri? Jayapatākā: Lentils. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But it's not good for construction. Jayapatākā: No, no, it won't be... *Prabhupāda: No, it will not continue. A few hours in a day, stop. Yadi varṣe māghera śeṣa, daṇḍa*-rājā puṇya-deśa. This is the month of Māgha. So at the end of Māgha, if there is little rain, then it is to be understood that the king of that country is very pious and blessed. This time a little rain is required. Yadi varṣe māghera śeṣa, daṇḍa-rājā puṇya-deśa. There is a book, Khanāra Vacana, astronomical prediction in this small verses. Jayapatākā: Pradyumna Prabhu had a copy of that book. Prabhupāda: Khanāra Vacana? Jayapatākā: I was looking at it. It was very practical. Even how to... How many feet you should plant the different trees, banana and others. Prabhupāda: Khanā was a woman, very intelligent. Wife... I think she was wife of Varāha Mihira. He was very great astrologer, and she learned from her husband, and then she explained in common language. That is Khanāra Vacana. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? Prabhupāda: This Khanāra Vacana. She was... I think so... I don't know whether... She was the wife of a great, a very big astrologer. Jayapatākā: There was nine ṛṣis of one rājā, and then she was the daughter of one of those ṛṣis. Prabhupāda: Oh, maybe, daughter or wife. Jayapatākā: Wife of a..., also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's amazing how everything is so scientifically analyzed in the *Vedas*. The Westerners... *Prabhupāda: Therefore we say "perfect." Śruti*-pramāṇam. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even to the point of knowing about a certain amount of rain coming at the end of a particular season and how that indicates about the administration. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, everything. Daṇḍa*-rājā puṇya-deśa. Jayapatākā: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: [break] "...whether you have got such buildings, whether you have got such books, whether you have got such disciples, whether you have traveled so..."? Then what they will, will be reply? Hm? Jayapatākā: But they've got the āśīrbād. Prabhupāda: Huh? Oh. They say that due to their āśīrbād? Jayapatākā: No, he is saying that he is the counterpart, that he's got the āśīrbād. Prabhupāda: No, āśīrbād, but what you have done for the āśīrbād. You are licking up the āśīrbād. Child: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm. Jaya. He is also. [break] Vedic conception is that the birds and beasts, they should not be driven away. Let them eat as much as it like. They must eat also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we shouldn't do that in our field? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Vedic. Jayapatākā: Then we won't have anything to eat. Prabhupāda: No, you produce more. Jayapatākā: What ha... In the... Because now this field is the only field that is ripening, so that if he doesn't scare the bird away, all the bird will come and eat his field. When all the wheat is ripening at the same time, then nobody cares. They let the birds eat. But if one man only is growing one crop at one time, then all the birds come. They will clean out and they all get... Prabhupāda: No, therefore everyone should grow seasonal grains. Everyone should take wheat. I think the number of men is more than the number of bricks. [break] ...rooms will be finished. They are not being finished. This? [break] ...Calcutta. So landlords became very perplexed. So one landlord asking, "You don't go. I shall reduce the rent." "Yes, that's all right, but your house is also not very good. There are so many rats." "All right, you can remain without rent." "And still, there are rats." "All right, I shall give you one cat so there will be no dis..." "Ah, who is going to keep a cat? I will require milk also to feed." "All right, I shall give you half kilo or one kilo milk also." "All right." So then he says, "Now no rent and one kilo milk, that's all right." This was in 1942. Jayapatākā: [break] ...minister is coming to the district and... Prabhupāda: Which minister? Jayapatākā: The Ajit Panja. He's the health minister. So we didn't see him... Bhavānanda: [break] ...that we must take drastic steps for curbing the population. Prabhupāda: Why don't you become brahmacārī? Hari-śauri: Too drastic. Jayapatākā: We want to present that we are, by moral training, achieving that. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are making them celibate. What is called? Celibacy. Jayapatākā: Even our gṛhasthas, they are only having one or two children. (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 21, 1976, Mäyäpura *Prabhupāda: Still, if you say, "You are mūḍha," they become angry. Such mūḍhas, rascals, they are in the government service. And if you say that "You are mūḍhas," he becomes angry. Upadeśo hi mūrkhāṇāṁ prakopāya na śāntaye: "If a mūḍha is advised nice instruction, he becomes angry." He does not take it. Payaḥ*-pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam: "If you give milk and banana to a snake, you simply increase his poison." One day he will come-(growls). You see? "I have given you milk and you..." "Yes, that is my nature. Yes. You give me milk, and I am prepared to kill you." This is mūḍha. We have to kill this civilization of mūḍhas. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. Those who are actually human being, you have to give them Kṛṣṇa. And those who are mūḍhas, we have to kill them. This is our business. Kill all the mūḍhas and give Kṛṣṇa to the sane man. Yes. That will prove that you are really Kṛṣṇa's. We are not nonviolent. We are violent to the mūḍhas. [break] ...wal, did you come here before? Indian man (1): No, sir. Prabhupāda: Do you like this place? Indian man (1): It's very nice. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...here for some time. You'll like it very much. [break] ...you all that in this center very nice foodstuff is supplied, and nobody becomes sick. Everyone complain, "I am sick because I am eating too much," or "no eating." Why? No eating or eating too much should be avoided. Simply you eat what will keep your health nice. That is eating. No eating is also not advised, and overeating is also not. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya [NoI 2]. Yuktāhāra, not atyāhāra. Yukta. Where is this Śāstrī? He's sleeping? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Sick? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He was in the class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he doesn't sleep at this... Prabhupāda: [break] ...possible for us to challenge the whole world that "You are all fools." Huh? Is it possible? Harikeśa: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Based on the scripture. You can show Vedic... Prabhupāda: No, no, they don't care for Vedic. That is another foolishness. You have to present. You have to prove them fools by practical. And otherwise, "Who cares for your Vedic instruction?" they will say. Why they should... "We have got our own instruction." That is preaching. If you quote simply Vedic literature, they will think, "We can quote many others." Bhavānanda: But they are filled with anxiety and we are not. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhavānanda: They are filled with anxiety. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the way of presentation. You have to present in such a way that he will accept that "What you are saying, you are right." That is preaching. [break] ...cepting our books because they are seeing, "Yes, here is practical explanation," not that because it is Bhāgavata. What do they care for Bhāgavata? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They never heard of Bhāgavata. Prabhupāda: No. And why they should accept Bhāgavata? We are not accepting Bible, so why they should accept Bhāgavata? That is no argument. You must present the Vedic knowledge in such a way that they will be obliged to accept: "Yes, it is right." [break] ...something, Mr. Agarwal, that "Nobody complains about eating," you will do a great service, I tell you. Everyone will come and say, "Oh, such a nice food." They will come here for eating, if not for anything. [break] You were proposing about our Vṛndāvana. So if this thing is done, that the eatables are very nice, then visitors will come. Otherwise this manager, that manager, this manager will not help you. Phalena paricīyate. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jayapatākā: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Harikeśa: There are a lot of restaurants in America which are very far away from the general mass of people, and because they have very high reputations, people come from miles around there. Prabhupāda: Yes. This tongue is very, what is called? Susceptible? No? Harikeśa: Voracious. *Prabhupāda: Not voracious. They want very palatable things, the tongue. Tā'ra madhye jihwā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati, very greedy. So if you supply them kṛṣṇa*-prasādam at the same time to satisfy their greediness, then you conquer. This is the secret. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You conquered a lot of devotees by prasādam. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Automatically he becomes devotee: "No, we shall become, remain here." This is the secret. Why the woman is liked? Because the woman, if she is trained up to give satisfaction to the tongue, to the belly and the sex, straight line, she becomes favorite immediately. This is woman's business. And people are hankering. The karmīs especially, they are hankering after these three things: palatable dishes, fill up belly, and sex. That's all. If the woman can do it, she conquers over the husband immediately because these three things they want. Take things very practically. Hm? Am I wrong or right? Jayapatākā: You are always right. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Tā'ra madhye jīhwā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati, tā'ke jetā kaṭhina saṁsāre, kṛṣṇa baṛo doyāmoy, koribāre jihwā jay, swa*-prasād. So prasādam should be so nice that he'll (be) conquered. He'll not go to the restaurant; they will come to Māyāpura. I have seen in Japan. Who is? You were... Where you were staying, that place? Sudāmā: Which place, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, no, far away from the city. Sudāmā: Oh, yes, yes. Takal, outside of Tokyo, we had our temple. Prabhupāda: So there were hotels? Sudāmā: Yes. Yes. One bird restaurant. Prabhupāda: Yes, bird. They are coming from fifty miles to eat there. So eating is so strong. If you prepare nice foodstuff and the flavor goes to hundred miles away, then they will automatically come. This is practical. Only for satisfaction of the tongue, there were special buses bringing them, and they were coming, full load of bus, to eat that jungle birds. Devotee (2): Jungle birds. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. The birds are available in the city, the fowls and cocks, but they wanted to eat the jungle birds. Just like there are men. They get sex pleasure at home; still, they go to the prostitutes. Very beautiful wife, but he goes to the prostitute. Taste is such bad. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like Ajāmila. Ajāmila. Prabhupāda: Yes. He had very good wife, young wife, and he became a victim to a prostitute and lost all brahminical culture. So if you create prostitute in the society, where is the hope of brahminical culture? There is a story that a gentleman... Not gentleman, a rascal. He was rich, and he was going to the prostitute. So the wife inquired that "What is wanting in me that you are going to the prostitute?" You know that story? "No, I go there because she dances, sings." So she learned dancing. So in this way, one after another, drinking, dancing, this, that. Still, he was going. The wife learned everything. Then when she said, "Now I have learned whatever you wanted. Still why you are...?" "No, one thing. I cannot express that." "What is that?" "You do not abuse my father and mother. That you cannot do." These prostitutes, they abuse the father and mother. In Bengal it is known, rakta kedara vega.(?) They address like that. Then she said, "All right. Stop. I am no more your wife. I cannot abuse your father and mother. That is not possible. I have learned everything for your satisfaction, but I cannot learn this thing." The prostitute will not only abuse the paramour but his father, mother, family, everything, culture. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And he enjoys it. Prabhupāda: And he enjoys: "Oh, so kindly she is abusing. It is love." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means completely perverted enjoyment. Prabhupāda: [break] They are being watered regularly, eh? [break] ...the neighbors, they do not like to sell, so don't bother. Let them keep it green. We shall see it. While walking we shall see all green at their expense. (laughter) Don't be eager to purchase. Just see. As soon as we began this digging, immediately he came down one thousand. And if you really purchase, he'll come and give at three thousand dollars. And he was asking six thousand. They came to seek some service. If it is possible, then give them, engage them. They said, "You are giving employment, so many." Is it possible? Jayapatākā: They can carry sand. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapatākā: They can carry sand by bullock cart. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's got a bullock cart and a nice house. He is... Prabhupāda: If possible, engage him in some permanent work. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was a good friend. Prabhupāda: Yes. And then also, see... Engage that Ghosh also, who sold us... Kappa Ghosh? Jayapatākā: They all want to carry sand. Prabhupāda: Sand? Jayapatākā: They all want to carry sand. Prabhupāda: Oh. Only? Jayapatākā: No. Jagad Ali also will take a permanent work. Prabhupāda: So that sand we shall do because our work should go on. Jayapatākā: Kappa Ghosh never sold us any land. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapatākā: He never sold us any land. Prabhupāda: Yes, that land you said, told me, some Ghosh. Jayapatākā: That was Balai Gosh. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayapatākā: But Kappa Gosh is... [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...bring these people into, all Kṛṣṇa bhaktas. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They may go under the banner of Muslim and so many other things, but actually... Prabhupāda: By association. If the devotees are real devotees, then by their association they will become devotees. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. What is that verse? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dhyāyato viṣayān puṁsaḥ saṅgāt sañjāyate... Dhyāyato viṣayān puṁsaḥ... Prabhupāda: What is that verse, Śāstrījī? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Second Chapter. Śāstrījī: *Prabhupāda: So this is the material side. Similarly, spiritual side also, the same. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu*-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. If the sādhu-saṅga is there, then gradually he becomes a devotee. Jayapatākā: [break] ...looking for a job. He worked for two months and then became devotee. He never took even salary. Prabhupāda: Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. This is the process. If one comes in contact with devotee or God, then he is simply satisfied by the service. No return. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce. [break] ...guru? Sudāmā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these workers are coming. Prabhupāda: Ghosh wanted to give us land that side for making a path to the Ganges. Jayapatākā: Sell us. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So we have got a plan beginning from this gate up to the Ganges. If we get land we can do that. [break] Foundation stone in Nellore can be transferred to Madras? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's what I'm going to do. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madras is far better place than Nellore. [break] ...if we take charity from such fallen woman, then we have to share his sinful activity. Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should be careful from whom we accept charity? *Prabhupāda: Yes. But our Kṛṣṇa can eat even fire. If there is forest fire, Kṛṣṇa can eat. Unless He is able to eat others' sinful reaction, how He says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]? He is capable; otherwise how He can say like that? *Śāstrījī: Sva*-rakṣita rakṣati yo hi garbhe.(?) Prabhupāda: Yes. Śāstrījī: (Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Ask the grill men to come and prepare grills for all the windows. Jayapatākā: Is that... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa's money can be used for that? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You simply give him account. You will get as much money as you require. [break] ...think that you must be assured that it is going to be finished before the festival. Otherwise don't engage so many men uselessly. Take assurances that it will be finished. Then make so many people engaged. Otherwise there is no need. Only fifty men is sufficient. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember with the first building what we did is with the contractor, the labor contractor, we held back a little bit of his money on the guaranteed. Jayapatākā: These are not contractors. Prabhupāda: Contractor or no contractor, but you be assured. Otherwise don't engage. Jayapatākā: He said we can finish all the brick work in two weeks. Prabhupāda: I don't not know what they say, but I want finished within two months. Then engage so many men. Otherwise why you are uselessly...? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Six weeks left. Prabhupāda: So if they cannot assure that, then keep only fifty men. Jayapatākā: We can get everything finished except for the plumbing and the... Prabhupāda: No "except." Jayapatākā: So then it is not possible. I can't do plumbing until everything is finished. Then only I can do the plumbing. Prabhupāda: So far plumbing, of course, not very important. That can be done later on. They can use other... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Toilet. Prabhupāda: Toilet. But they must be habitable. They may pass their stool on the... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Neighbor's land? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not... But this must be habitable. Otherwise what is the use of engaging so many men? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about electricity? Bhavānanda: Electricity is no problem. Prabhupāda: Electricity also can be temporarily, immediately fixed up. That is not difficult. [break] ...saying that "Our work will go on." If you cheat us in this way, then I will not engage you." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we have ten years' work to do. Prabhupāda: Yes. But you must finish everything within that period. Plumbing and electricity we shall see. That is not very important. But it must be habitable. So if he thinks that it is possible, then let him go. Otherwise you engage only fifty men. [break] ...he cannot say, "There was no money." That is not possible. If you pay money, he must give the result. (end) *Morning Walks-*-January 22-23, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: Viṣaya... (Bengali) This sense gratification, that is available everywhere. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Śāstrījī: (chanting Sanskrit or Bengali ślokas) [break] Āise guru*-pada-kamalaṁ vande. Āise guru-pada-kamalaṁ vande. (chants Bengali verses) *Prabhupāda: [break] ...sex. Āhāra*-nidra-bhaya-maithuna. This is life: sex and bhaya, fearfulness, and then eating and sleeping-four things. They must eat, they must sleep, and the sex, and as soon as some men are coming, flying. This is there in the human society. Where is the distinction? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No distinction. *Prabhupāda: They are also together, the same sex. Āhāra*-nidra-bhaya-maithuna. And they are writing books, big, big book, "Sex Psychology," Freud. This rascals' philosophy. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What's*-his-name is doing that too. That bogus guru in Bombay, Rajneesh. He is also writing sex psychology books. Prabhupāda: That's all. And this is going on as pleasure. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhagavan Rajneesh. Guḍākeśa: He's been thrown out of Bombay now. He can't come to Bombay. Prabhupāda: So many rascals are there. Is there any philosophy which is existent in the lower animals? What is philosophy there? And they are writing big, big philosophy, Freud's philosophy and others. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were describing that Freud's business is that he had sex life with his mother. Prabhupāda: Yes. You did not know that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I didn't know it till you... Prabhupāda: Yes. You told me? Harikeśa: No, you told me. Then I told you. Prabhupāda: Somebody told me, some Western authority. Hari-śauri: It must have been Harikeśa. Prabhupāda: The Mohammedans say. In the Koran it is written there, "From this day, no sex life with mother." In the modern philosophy they say, "What is the wrong? Why there should be discrimination?" John Lennon was follower of this. "Sex anyone. It doesn't matter. It is a bodily necessity. That's all." They learn this art from the hogs, hog philosophy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is one popular music group in America called the Hog Farm. And what they do is they have their... When they are playing their music, just below the stage they have a big pen with many hogs in it, and at the end of the music they all jump down amongst the hogs, and then they do all kinds of nonsense things. And it's a very popular group. *Prabhupāda: (chuckles) How they are bringing ruination. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. The blind men led by another blind man. It is not new. In the Bhāgavata therefore it is warned that "Don't follow hog philosophy." Viḍ*-bhujāṁ ye. This kind of philosophy, that for sense gratification, laboring whole day and night, writing books, philosophizing and all these things, it is meant for the hogs, not for human being. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. This kind of civilization is meant for the hogs. So they are exhibiting that they are no better than hog. *Śāstrījī: Śuddhyed yasmād brahma*-saukhyaṁ tv anantam. Brahma-saukhya, ananta-brahma-saukhya. [break] (sings Bengali verses) *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Don't manufacture knowledge. Take knowledge from Bhagavān. And that is our business. (Bengali) Don't order Bhagavān. Just follow Bhagavān. That is wanted. (Bengali) Don't write concocted poetries. That is not beneficial. Simply follow. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That is your business, not to give upadeśa to Kṛṣṇa, "Kṛṣṇa, do this." Nāciye nāciye āile gopāla: "My dear Gopāla, please come to me, nāciye, dancing." And the Gopāla is father's servant. Ordering, "Gopāla, come," nāciye nāciye, "my sense gratification." It is all nonsense. Why should you ask Gopāla to come to you? (Bengali) You cannot order. You must follow. (Bengali) ...to carry out the order of God, not to order God to carry out my order. That is mistake. Indian man (1): Always surrender to God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (1): Move according to the dictation of God *Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't dictate God. The demigod worshipers, they dictate, dhanaṁ dehi, rūpaṁ dehi, yaśo de... This dehi, dehi, dehi. Therefore they are condemned. In the Bhagavad*-gītā they have been condemned. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante [Bg. 7.20]. He is so kāmuka, he is ordering God. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ. But that order cannot be carried by God, but the demigods, they sometimes become flattered and give this benediction. So Kṛṣṇa said, tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām: "This kind of flattering the demigods and take some benediction," antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām [Bg. 7.23]. Order... You cannot order God, but you can flatter these demigods. And therefore people are very much fond of flattering these demigods because... Indian man (1): Just to get material wealth. Material happiness. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. Tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasām. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣām. All this material happiness, you may get it, but it will be finished with your body. Kṛṣṇa says that teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, dadāmi buddhi-yoga [Bg. 10.10]. He says, "I will give intelligence. There is no question of asking. If you become a devotee, sincere devotee, I'll give you everything without your asking." You understand, follow? So you qualify yourself. That is wanted. That qualification is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. He is always prepared to give you light. Just like sunlight is open always, but if you keep yourself in the dark room, how you can take benefit of the sunlight? Your business is to come before the sun; then everything will be all right. [break] ...used to sing like that, sab ke sampatti de bhagavān.(?)Huh? Raghupati rāghava rāja... You know? Sab ke sampatti de bhagavān. De bhagavān? What is this nonsense? He's asking, de bhagavān. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What does that mean, "de bhagavān?" Guḍākeśa: "Give me." Prabhupāda: Give him. Sab ke sampatti de bhagavān. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's for the demigods. Prabhupāda: No, he has no sense what is God. This is going on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Isn't it that song they sing at the Kumbhamela? You know, they were singing all the time at the Kumbhamela, "Give me this, give me that." What is that song? Prabhupāda: Yes, the ārati, ārati. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That ārati song. Oṁ jaya jagadīśa? Indian man (1): Hare. Prabhupāda: Viṣaya paiye, dhana sampatti paiye. What is that? (laughter) Jaya bhagavān. Dehom ki viṣaya(?), jaya bhagavān. Indian man (2): Sab ko sampatti de bhagavān. *Prabhupāda: Duḥkha jaye sampatti paiye de bhagavān, jayo kara. (Bengali) Whole world, they have accepted God as order*-supplier. "I order, and You supply." They all, this Christian Church also: "God, give us our daily bread." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And if God doesn't give, then God is dead. Prabhupāda: Dead. This is going on. And our prayer is, na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagad-īśa kāmaye: [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4] "I don't want anything. Simply engage me in Your service." Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī. This is real prayer, which is taught by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? I was reading in a magazine that in Germany the people used to be pious, but after the Second World War... Prabhupāda: They became atheist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Completely atheists. Guḍākeśa: Prabhupāda said that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they all said, "If God is there, then..." Prabhupāda: That... It was spoken by my, that Godbrother, Sadānanda. He told me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That could be the possibility why the government is harassing us there so much. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Not only... Everywhere now there will be harassment for us because this is the only movement preaching about God's glories. This is only movement in the whole world. So the harassment will increase. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Increase. Prabhupāda: Yes. The more we sell our books, the harassment will be there. But sale is increasing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. And we just double our effort. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...religious persecution. We don't mind that. We shall go on with our business. (Bengali) They feel, "Now this is coming." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Threat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They know we're threatening. Prabhupāda: When they feel. Yes. Just like our Godbrothers. Now they're feeling; therefore there is harassment. "Harass them." Planning how to harass. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. When he saw that Prahlāda could not be killed in so many ways, he became very much disturbed: "What is this?" Then one day he asked, "Prahlāda, wherefrom you have got this power?" "And wherefrom you have got this power? I am getting from the same source." Hari-śauri: He didn't like that. Prabhupāda: Again he became angry. "Somebody else than me? I am God." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "I am world preacher." Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...is so kind that He is sitting in everyone's heart to give him good advice. There is no need of asking. He is only finding out the good opportunity to speak to him. (Bengali) Two birds sitting? So He is always eager to give you advice. He comes down to give you advice. So we are not taking the advice. That is the position. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sarvasya cāham... Indian man (2): Hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ, He said. So who is taking His advice? Five thousand years Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. Who is surrendering? Hm? Therefore Kṛṣṇa came again as Caitanya Mahāprabhu how*-to surrender-but still the rascals will not do that. Indian man (2): Ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. Prabhupāda: Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. This is illusion. [break] ...two cases. One was my friend, and he was a big man. So one servant, he advised him that "You do like this." He was immediately dismissed. I have got experience. "You are trying to advise me? Get out immediately." Huh? Guḍākeśa: Very good example. So if we try to advise God... Prabhupāda: No, God is not so foolish that... But He laughs that "This man has come to advise." *Indian man (1): God is sarva*-jña. *Prabhupāda: My guru mahārāja used to say-I think I have explained many times*-that "Don't try to see God. Do in such a way that God will see you." Similarly, don't try to advise God, but follow the advice of God. That is our way. Because Bhagavān... (Bengali) This is also command. (Bengali) Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. If you are fully engaged in the service, then He will come: "Please see Me." Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [Brs. 1.2.234]. And if we want to see God with our these blunt eyes, it is not possible. Na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ. This said... Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. (Bengali) Or in the material world if our mind is always disturbed for sense gratification it is not possible. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi. Even you cannot understand what is this chanting, śrī-kṛṣṇa... Because God worship begins from the chanting of name, therefore it is said, ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi. Nāma, līlā, form. Begins from nāma. So na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ. If you keep your senses blunt, then it is not possible. Purify. And what is that? Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Hṛṣīka means senses. When you engage all your senses in the service of the Lord, then you become nirmala. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate. Tat-paratvena nirmalam. *(Bengali) Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: [Bg. 18.66] "As soon as you surrender, I take charge of you." Then everything you'll get. Be always confident that "Kṛṣṇa will save me. Let me serve Kṛṣṇa sincerely." That's all. (Bengali) You'll find in Bhagavad-gītā. Arjuna many times said, iti śuśrūṣu: "I do not know whether it is correct, but I heard it like that." That is speaking. What you have heard from the authorities, if you speak, you repeat that, that is real speaking. Then pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt: then you'll be guru for the whole world, if you don't manufacture. So what is the difference between our Kṛṣṇa conscious and others? They manufacture ideas. Just like Ramakrishna Mission, manufacture: daridra-nārāyaṇa sevā. Where is...? Nārāyaṇa is there, Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa. Where is this word, daridra-nārāyaṇa? He manufactured. (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We never heard of him in America. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Jayapatākā: They are saying that there, there are so many roads named after him. They are saying. Prabhupāda: How propaganda, lies. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We never even heard of him. Prabhupāda: I have seen one road, street, "Gandhi Street," Mexico, and there is no other. Mexico, when there was trouble with the Americans, they adopted Gandhi's noncooperation movement. Therefore they regarded Gandhi. There is Gandhi's statue and Gandhi's name, one. Who had been Mexico, any of you? That I have seen. And I never seen Vivekananda Road, never. Or India, oh, so many, this, that. No Caitanya Mahāprabhu Road. Vivekananda Road. Propaganda. The other day I saw some stamp, postage, "Vivekananda." You have seen it? But never they will publish Kṛṣṇa or Caitanya Mahāprabhu. "Kṛṣṇa is fictitious." What is called? Mythology. "Kṛṣṇa is mythology." (Bengali) The government saw, especially the police department, and they became so popular. Within two, three years, thousands and thousands of men, not only Indian. Kichu āchen. All Europeans, American, Englishmen, they are following Rathayātrā. Jaya jagannātha, jaya hare kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In San Francisco they made it a holiday. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) "Rival of Nelson Column..." (Bengali) [break] (Bengali) "It is hell." Actually that is. Always wet. No road you'll find it is dry. Always damp. Is it not? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, hellish. Prabhupāda: And it is so damp that in the trees you will see, what is called? (Bengali) Moss, moss, moss. Yes. Indian man (1): Gathered moss. Prabhupāda: Yes. In every tree you will find. They do not get sufficient sunshine. (Bengali) We have got very nice lawn, but I cannot enjoy it. Hardly one day or two. You cannot sit there. It is cold. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And damp. It's about five after seven now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] ...last month? Prabhupāda: No, they gave it, account up to December 12, week ending on December 12. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there was a six*-day period when they sold 650,000 pieces of literature, six days. *Prabhupāda: Recently we have published abridged edition of Bhagavad*-gītā, 350,000... Three hundred and fifty hundred thousand. Guḍākeśa: Three and a half lakhs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Already, though, over half of it is sold out. In one month we've sold over half the printing. Indian man (4): Even among Indians, it is so popular, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Which one? *Indian man (4): Your Bhagavad*-gītā. All the Indians, in meeting they all come. Two or three times I have met. Some of them say, "You have got more? You have got more Bhagavad-gītā?" Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Why they look inquisitive? No commentary. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Cent percent cheater beginning from the top. They have lost their own culture, Vedic civilization, and they are not competent to earn properly. They must be cheater. Beg, borrow, steal. They have lost their own culture; therefore they have no one honest. Formerly Indians were so honest that after one man's death, his son comes... Even we have seen it in childhood. "Sir, my father took from you the five thousand rupees. So now he is dead, so I have come to pay you." So he says, "I never seen my account that your father has taken five thousand rupees from me. I cannot take it." This is India. One man is offering him five thousand, that "We are debtor to you. Please take it." And he says, "No, I don't find in my account that your father took five thousand. I cannot take it." And now they are cheating. This is India's position. Even in our childhood I have see that Mr. C. R. Das, his father died insolvent some lakhs of rupees. So when he became a big barrister he called every one of them that "My father died insolvent. Now I have got money. You take it." This was India. And now they have become cheaters. This is svarāj, independence. Even in British times there was C. R. Das who liquidated the debts of his insolvent father. "My father died insolvent. He could not pay, so he declared insolvency in the court. Now I have got money. You take it." This was India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the need of a son. *Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Therefore ṛṇa*-kartā pitā śatruḥ. A father dies insolvent, debtor; *he is enemy because the son has to pay according to Manu*-saṁhitā law. Because he inherits father's money, why he shall not pay if the father is debtor? Jayapatākā: He also inherits the debt. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is India's law. You cannot simply inherit father's property and no debt. You inherit father's debt also. So a father dies debted, indebtor*-he is supposed to be enemy because the son has to pay. Ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatrur mātā śatrur dvicaraṇi.(?)And mother, if she marries for the second time in spite of presence of children, she is enemy. And in Western countries it is very common affair. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Divorce and remarry. *Prabhupāda: All enemies. Mother enemy, father enemy. And then? Ṛṇa*-kartā pitā śatrur mātā śatrur dvicaraṇi, rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. And if the wife is very beautiful, she is also enemy. And putraḥ śatrur apaṇḍitaḥ. And the son, if he's a rascal, he is enemy. That's all. This is family enemies. In the family nobody expects enemy, but Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that these are enemies in the family. Ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatrur mātā śatrur dvicaraṇi, rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. Now everyone is hankering after very beautiful wife, and Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said, "Then you are bringing one enemy." Just see what is the type of civilization. Because if you become too much attached to wife, then you'll never be able to go out of home and take sannyāsa. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Andha*-kūpam. *Prabhupāda: Andha*-kūpam. You shall have to die. Gṛham andha-kūpam. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato... You'll never be able to leave the home if wife is very attractive. Of course, everyone's wife is very attractive. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if ugly. Prabhupāda: Yes. That... One, our Sanskrit professor used to... "My dear boys, even there is beauty amongst the negroes." He used to say. And it is my... It is one's eye that she is very beautiful. It does not recommend others' recommendation. Yar saṅge ye morje man kibari ki vardana(?). It doesn't matter whether she low caste or high caste; if she is attractive, then it is all right. Therefore rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction are very, very nice. You know my story? My father's instruction? Yes. Harikeśa: What was that? Prabhupāda: (chuckles) My wife was never beautiful to my sight, so I wanted to marry again, and my father advised, "Don't do it. She is your friend, that you don't like her." (laughs) Just see. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But still, Prabhupāda, you said that your school work was a little impeded... Prabhupāda: Huh? No, that is natural. In young time, when there is young girl... That is also said, yauvane kukkarī sundarī. When woman is in full youth, even she is like dog, she is beautiful. (laughs) Yauvane kukkarī sundarī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who said that? Whose statement was that? Prabhupāda: No, that was also... I do not know, but this is going on. (laughter) Yauvane kukkarī sundarī. It is by nature's arrangement the woman is given one chance at the time of youthfulness. Otherwise how she will be given protection by a man? They require protection. If somebody is not attracted, then how she gets protection? This is natural. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nowadays, though, even if she is attractive, the men simply take advantage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: And they call this liberation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the women want it. Prabhupāda: Want means as the social practice is there, everyone becomes victimized. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it's not their fault. *Prabhupāda: The social system in India, that a boy, say, twenty, twenty*-five years, and a girl, twelve to sixteen years, must be married. Must be married. And before marriage the girl should not see any boy, and the boy should not see any woman. Then the life is all right. Even in U.P. still, the system is that before marriage the boy should not see. The marriage takes place. Nowadays it has been practiced that boy goes to see the girl, but formerly it was not. She (he) should not see. She (he) should see the girl when the marriage actually takes place, not before that. The psychology is that when they require a man or a girl, so whatever she is or he is, they accept and they remain chaste, so there is no separation. This is the psychology. Whenever you are hungry, whatever nonsense foodstuff is offered to you, it is palatable. Is it not? Because, after all, it is the appetite which eats, not the foodstuff. Foodstuff may be very, very nicely prepared, but if you have no appetite, it is finished. You know the history of Ramakrishna? Did I say? Yes. So he had no appetite, and he very tactfully said, "Oh, you are not my wife. You are my mother." And he became Bhagavān. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if he had no appetite it means he was transcendentally situated? *Prabhupāda: No, no. Not transcendentally. In his young time he used so many women that after marriage he was impotent. So he could not use, and he made a tact that "I see all women as my mother, even my wife." And that made him famous, this jugglery. Phuraphai(?) govindāya namaḥ. Flying, what is called? Puffed rice flying, "All right, govindāya namaḥ. I offer to Govinda." Phuraphai govindāya. Where is in the history that a saintly person has called his wife "mother"? The saintly person give some home, that's all. And where is the, such instance*-a saintly man calls his wife as "mother"? He is the only man. "Mā." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, there's another thing I noticed, that in the pictures very often of Ramakrishna and his mother, his wife, whichever one she is, they show... *Prabhupāda: No, they show that "This is husband and wife. Ramakrishna was so advanced that even his wife, he left her, considering, 'She is my mother.' By worshiping mother Kālī he has become so perfect that sees all women as mother." He does not require to become Bhagavān. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu. Para-dāreṣu, not your own wife. Huh? Others' wife should be treated as mother. That is our Indian system. But he wanted to overcome that, that "I call even my wife mother." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That "I am better than..." Prabhupāda: Ah, better than all others. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The question I've had is that in the pictures they always show her head. She is bareheaded. She doesn't cover her head. And I noticed the thing that when we're sometimes passing in a car in Bengal I notice that the women, very often, they don't... It's more in this state than anywhere else, they don't cover their head. Is that due to her influence? Prabhupāda: No, no. The system is when the woman is at the care of father she does not cover. But when she is under the care of husband she must cover. By dress you can understand what she is, whether she is widow, whether she has got husband, whether she is prostitute. Everything by dress you'll understand. Nowadays the fashion is the woman has the bakan(?) sīmanta here, not here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prostitute. Prabhupāda: But that was meant for prostitute. If the woman has sīmanta here, then you should understand. Then you can freely talk with. She is advertising, "Yes, I am prostitute. You can talk with me." Without that signboard no man is gentleman if he wants to talk with another woman. He can talk only with that woman. Neither you can talk with widow. That girl, our (sic:) Śivaśakti's mother? She is dressing herself as widow. That is very nice. Very nice. That simple dress will not attract men. Bhavānanda: In America, Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes when I preached in the schools I used that example, that how by looking at a woman's part of her hair you can tell what she is. And so many of the girls in the class, they had their hair parted on the side. So I said a woman who has her hair parted on the side is a prostitute. They all laughed. Prabhupāda: "And what is the wrong to become prostitute?" They accept it, "All right, we are prostitute." Bhavānanda: Right. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Now there is no distinction between prostitute and chaste. Jayapatākā: That was published in the Bombay Illustrated Weekly, that the prostitutes are having difficulty because women are so freely available that no one is coming to pay for them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is the position. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unemployment. *Prabhupāda: Because everyone is prostitute. Vartula pravaha.(?) You know vartula pravaha? This nyāya, logic? Vartula pravaha. One brāhmaṇa was taking bath daily in the Ganges. So as a brāhmaṇa's regulative principle, they take kośa*-kuśī to offer oblation to the forefathers, śraddhā. So one day he found there are so many kośa-kuśīs, so he could not understand which is his own. So next day, just to find out his own, he put one earth ball in his own kośa. Kośa you understand? Jayapatākā: Some plate. Prabhupāda: One plate, yes. It is placed like this. So when he came from, after bathing, he saw that so many kośas are, everything is containing that ball, vartula. Then again he was puzzled that he put a ball in his own kośa so that he can find out, but when he came back from bathing he saw that all the kośas... Then he asked all other brāhmaṇas, "How is that, that there are so many balls in everyone's kośa? I put it to recognize my own." So they said, "I thought that it is a fashion now. It is an occasion to put a ball in..." Vartula pravaha. The same difficulty. At Bombay there was some news like this, that prostitutes are not doing well in their profession? Who told me that? Harikeśa: He said it was in the Illustrated Weekly. Prabhupāda: Oh. When it was? Jayapatākā: About one year ago. There was a big article on prostitution. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we understand that in the Satya*-yuga one hundred percent of the population was God conscious. But then again, we see many times it is stated that, for example, there were always prostitutes or there was always this or... *Prabhupāda: No, there were no prostitute in Satya*-yuga. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No meat*-eaters. *Prabhupāda: No meat*-eaters. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: None whatsoever. *Prabhupāda: All paramahaṁsas. In the Satya*-yuga they are all paramahaṁsa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every single person. Prabhupāda: Every person was perfectly, spiritually... Harikeśa: On the earth. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Then in Tretā*-yuga one-fourth diminished. And then Dvāpara-yuga, half diminished. And in Kali-yuga, three-fourth diminished. Seventy-five per cent are all rogues, and twenty-five per cent... That is expected, but that is now diminishing. They are all rogues with the advancement of Kali-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. Therefore there is no other method to save them. Harer nāmaiva kevalam. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's gift. Incorrigible. Everyone will be incorrigible. Only hope is Hare Kṛṣṇa. The whole Vedic system is to make human being correct. Being incorrect, they are suffering in this material world repetition of birth, death. Sometimes man, sometimes dog. So to correct him so that he comes to his original position, Kṛṣṇa conscious, and go back to home. This is the whole Vedic civilization, to correct him. Therefore it is called saṁskāra. Saṁskāra means correction. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Veda-pāṭhād bhaved vipro brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ.(?)To correct him and bring him to the brahminical stage. From pig stage to brahminical stage. This is Vedic civilization. Everyone is like pig in this material world. Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva says, "Now don't live like pig." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye: [SB 5.5.1] "Now, you, My children... " He was advising, instructing His son that "Now this life is not to live like pig." This is the first instruction, because everyone is more or less pig, living like pig. Pig means he has no discrimination of eating and he has no discrimination of sex. That is pig. And everyone is like that. No discrimination of eating, especially in the Western. And no discrimination of sex. Pigs. Big pig or small pig, that's all. So Ṛṣabhadeva says, "Now My dear sons, don't spoil your life living like pigs." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. Nṛloke means "In the human society you should not live like pig and very hard labor." So the whole civilization at the present moment they want to live like pig, and to live like pig they are working like an ass. And that is civilization, working like ass to become a pig. You tell them! Harikeśa: They will get very angry. *Prabhupāda: Angry... With shoes. We beat them with shoes that "You have created a civilization to work like ass, and ideal is to become a pig. What is this civilization? Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puru... [SB 2.3.19]. And for their votes you become a president. What you are better than a pig? A pig votes for another pig, big pig. That's all. How people will be happy?" Harikeśa: You told them that in South Africa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Did I say? Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But they clapped. Harikeśa: Yes. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They appreciated. Although they do not take Indians very seriously... *Harikeśa: "Third*-class citizens." Prabhupāda: Third class. But they attended my lecture, they purchased my books and they clapped. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. South Africa... Prabhupāda: Yes, South Africa. That I... Very much I was astonished that how these... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many of them? Prabhupāda: Oh, many of them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. I thought only Indians attended. Harikeśa: Oh, no. Prabhupāda: No, no. White men. Yes. And in Melbourne the priests also appreciated. So any sane man will appreciate our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. These are very strong words, that "You have created a civilization of pig, and for making perfect that civilization you are working like ass." So what is the advancement? A ass is trying to become a pig. What is that civilization? The ideal is to become a pig, and for that, fulfillment of that idea, they are working like ass. Is it not? Just see. Think over. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we speak like that in the classrooms, whew! Bhavānanda: They like it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very strong. *Prabhupāda: This is the fact. Therefore Bhāgavata says, śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. They are very much proud: "I have got ninety-nine percent votes and I have become President." But what you are? You are another big pig only. Who has voted you? The voters are pigs and asses and camel and dogs. So if these animal vote for somebody, then what he is? Is there... Are... Their votes are calculable at all? Votes by the dogs, pigs, camels, and... śva-viḍ-varāha. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara, and asses. So what is the value of these votes? And that is going on, democracy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How can they vote for human beings? *Prabhupāda: There is no human being. A big... I gave that a big animal, lion, is fearful to the small animal. But because he is lion, very strong, does it mean that he's a human being? That is going on. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. If one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's nothing but animal. So if other small animals praise him, "Oh, you are..." This Gandhi or Indira Gandhi or, and the Hitler and... What is the value? He's a big animal, that's all. Harikeśa: You were saying in Vṛndāvana they tweak each other's ear. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: Churchill was tweaking the ear of Hitler, and Hitler was tweaking... Like in school the two children? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Jayapatākā: Yesterday you mentioned to the secretary that the members of legislature should all be Vaiṣṇavas. They should all be brahminically qual... *Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa*-vaiṣṇava. *Jayapatākā: Brāhmaṇa*-vaiṣṇava. Then they could give true advice. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this nonsense asses and pigs and dogs and cats? What they will do? Jayapatākā: One goal we could have is that they would pass a law that no one could be a member of a legislature who didn't follow the four regulative principles. Prabhupāda: Who will do that? That can be possible if you spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement very widely and they become convinced that "We shall not vote anyone to these rascals. We must have a Vaiṣṇava." Then everything will be changed. That is the only opportunity, that if people become Vaiṣṇava and they decide that "We are not going to vote anyone who is not a Vaiṣṇava," then everything will be all right. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes the devotees question that the Kali*-yuga is advancing, and in that sense the standards are deteriorating. Yet you are preaching that "Get everyone to the position where everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious." How in the Kali-yuga advancing can everyone become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: They do not understand. If I say, "The epidemic is increasing. You take this injection, then you can be saved. If you don't take vaccination, then you'll suffer." This is our propaganda. "You take this vaccination; you'll be saved. The epidemic is very strong." But if you think, "Now, because there is epidemic there is no other way. What is the use of taking vaccination?" This is no argument. The epidemic is there; the vaccination is there. (aside:) This is tulasī? Tell them. The disease is there; *the medicine is there. So intelligent man should take the medicine, precaution, and then he'll be saved. Two things are there. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. In Kali*-yuga, if you don't take this, then there is no means of your save, safety. The two things are there. Why you are taking one thing? You take this thing or... [break] Everywhere two things are there: do's and don't's. So in order to make the process of do's you have to accept the process of don't's. That Nectar of Instruction, Rūpa Gosvāmī? He's instructing both the do's and the don't's. Huh? You have read it? Harikeśa: Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca... [NoI 2]. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca. Prabhupāda: Ah. That is don't's. Harikeśa: Utsāhān niścayāt... Prabhupāda: This is do's. That is instruction. Why should you take one side? Take both sides. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing is that in those two verses, one is don't and one is do, but the... Prabhupāda: You have to take. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is still a statement in the do's which is a don't, where it says, "Don't associate with nondevotees." Utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt... [Upadeśāmṛta 3]. *Prabhupāda: Sato vṛtteḥ saṅga*-tyāgāt. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Saṅga*-tyāgāt sato vṛtteḥ. So that's a don't. Prabhupāda: No, no. There is don't's and do's also. Sato vṛtteḥ. This is do's. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because it's translated as "Don't associate with the nondevotees." *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. All the ślokas, they are... In some śloka the do's are prominent, some ślokas don't's prominent, but in every śloka there is do's and don't's. Everywhere there is. In the Bible also: "Thou shall not do. Thou shall not kill." The don't's. [break] You are learning śabda*-rūpa, dhātu-rūpa. Hiraṇyagarbha: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Every śloka there is śabda, dhātu, everything. Nominative, objective. [break] ...some you are going to say, just study yourself, whether it is not the civilization of asses and pigs. You have to understand first of all. Is it not? They are working hard like an ass just to become an ideal pig. Is it not this civilization? Harikeśa: Having sex with mother, daughter, sister... *Prabhupāda: Yes. How śāstra has picked up the example, just see. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate... [SB 5.5.1]. What is that? *Harikeśa: Viḍ*-bhujāṁ ye. *Prabhupāda: Viḍ*-bhujāṁ ye. This is not civilization. This is civilization, tapasya: no meat-eating, no this, no this, that, and become perfect, ideal brāhmaṇa life, satya śama dama śuci jñāna vijñāna. This is civilization. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Unless you become civilized like this, there is no opportunity of brahma-jijñāsā. And so long you do not inquire about Brahman, that you remain, that pigs and hogs and asses. If human civilization is wasted to cultivate the pig civilization, naturally, "All right, you come here. Become a pig now. Take this body." Kṛṣṇa will say, "Nature, prakṛti, he got this chance to become human being, but has misused. Kindly give him a body of pig." Then you get this yantra, how you can become perfect pig, whole day and night eat stool, and as soon as you get another opposite party, have sex. Doesn't matter whether it is daughter or mother or sister. That's all. Take Freud's philosophy and become highly advanced in civilization. Now the Freud's philosophy is being translated in Hindi and so many other languages. We are advancing in civilization, Indians. They are translating this Freud's philosophy, pig civilization. People therefore do not come to us. (chuckles) They avoid us because "They are not pigs." Harikeśa: Pigs don't like to live in a clean house. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is a story in Bhāgavata that Indra was cursed to become a pig. So after some time there was mismanagement in the heavenly kingdom. Brahmā personally came, "Indra, anyway, you became pig. Now you come with me." "Huh? How can I go? I have got so much responsibility." Then he was killed and took to heaven. So any life, any abominable condition, everyone is thinking, "I am perfect." This is called māyā. Any abominable condition, he is thinking, everyone is thinking, that "I am perfect. I have nothing to advance." This is called māyā. They do not know what is perfection. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. The ideal perfection they do not know. They are trying that "We shall make this pig life adjusted to civilized life." Is it possible? Pig life and adjusting to civilized life? Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall get down? [break] Nobody will accept. But if you explain that "You are no better than pigs and hogs and asses," then they will accept. So we have to take the idea from Bhāgavata and explain it for their understanding. That is wanted. [break] People are working so hard. Is it pleasure? But why they are working? They are working with the only hope that "Night, I shall go home, eat nicely and have sex with my wife." That's all. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. Otherwise why they will work so hard? Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...Los Angeles we have got a plant like this next to my window. That land for others, but it comes to my window. What is this? Bhavānanda: Bougainvillea. Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? What about the point, in certain places in *Bhāgavatam* it distinctly says that the human being's food is creatures of four legs with cloven hoof? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Harikeśa: It distinctly says in some places in Bhāgavatam that the human being's food is four*-legged animals with a cloven hoof. *Prabhupāda: Yes, if you remain animal. But that is not the ideal, that you remain animal. That is culture. If you want to remain animal, then it is all right. If you want to remain pig, you eat whatever you like. But if you don't want to remain a pig, then you have got to make discrimination. You have to take kṛṣṇa*-prasāda. Because it is Bhāgavatam, it is written that one animal is food for another animal. That is for the animal. And I have already said that this Vedic civilization is meant for making the animal a perfect person. *Harikeśa: In the Manu*-saṁhitā also there is many, many rules about what kind of meat to eat. *Prabhupāda: That is gradually. Gradually. If he cannot give up meat*-eating, so, "All right, don't eat cows' flesh. You eat hogs. That's all." But the real purpose is to stop meat-eating. And that is also under restriction. "You can eat one goat. Sacrifice it before Goddess Kālī under such and such rules and regulation. Then you take one piece of meat at night." So any sensible man-"Why I should undergo such rules and regulation for eating a little piece of meat? Better give it up." That is the idea. It is not that encouraging him. What is the meaning of encouraging? He is already eating meat? Why śāstra should... The real way, nivṛtteḥ... Pravṛttir eṣāṁ bhūtānāṁ nivṛttes tu mahā-phalam. The pravṛtti, the inclination, is there. Now train him to give it up. That is wanted. Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva says, tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1], that "Tapasya is your business." Tapo divyam. The human life is for tapasya-athāto brahma jijñāsā-only discussion on Brahman, to understand Brahman, and tapasya. Therefore you find in India so many saintly persons, highly educated brāhmaṇas, high literature, everything. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? One time you were explaining that Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was speaking with the Kazi, He convinced him about that the Koran does not actually advocate meat*-eating. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Because the Muslims, they also cannot eat meat unless it is sacrificed in the mosque. There is no recommendation that you purchase from the market and the animal be slaughtered in the slaughterhouse. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there some mention not to eat many animals but eat one... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what I... I couldn't remember. *Prabhupāda: Yes. In Arabia they were to eat animal but to save him from so many dangerous and sinful life*-he has to kill so many goats-better kill one life, a camel or a cow. Camel is big animal. So if you kill one animal, camel, it is equal to fifty goats. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about a cow? Prabhupāda: A cow is also big animal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they say like that? Prabhupāda: Yes... They don't say cow. They say better kill one big animal. "So instead of becoming sinful for killing so many animals, you better kill..." And that is also sacrificed in the mosque, and that is called koravāni. Restriction is there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So there's no... The karma for killing many goats is more severe than killing one cow. Prabhupāda: No, no. You become responsible for each and every animal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Irrespective of what kind of animal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now if you can serve the purpose by killing one animal, why should you take the risk of killing many animals? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if that one animal is a cow. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Animal is animal. And we say protect cow from economic point of view, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Without saving cows you cannot get good food, not from the animal point of view. You require milk and milk preparation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the cow dies anyway. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cow is going to die naturally, anyway. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, if you want flesh, take that dead body and eat. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why don't they see this, that just by killing a cow you don't get more cows. They're going to die anyway. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is going to die, but they are so voracious, they do not wait up to the death, and they have theorized that "Dead animal is dangerous to health. Now kill while it is in life." Harikeśa: Yes, they think like that. Prabhupāda: Yes, but... They have got so many nonsense philosophy. But if that philosophy is supported, when you kill the animal, he becomes dead. (laughter) Sudāmā: Yes, they call it "fresh meat." Prabhupāda: Just see. "Fresh dead." Just see. The rascals are so fools that unless you make him dead, you cannot eat. So why do you theorize that a dead animal is not good? Harikeśa: Well, 'cause he had to die from some cause, and that cause is... Prabhupāda: Cause, all right. It is also cause. You are killing, that's all. Harikeśa: The knife is clean, whereas the germs are... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Formerly the Hindus, they used to purchase meat and cook it in Ganges water. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, boy. Harikeśa: Purify it. Prabhupāda: They thought, "Now it is..." And you will still find in Calcutta, "Hindu butcher." That Hindu butcher is pure. You have been in Calcutta? So they are going on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Jews have that, "Kosher butcher." Prabhupāda: "Mother's prasādam." The rascals say, "It is mother's prasādam." *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Durgā, Kālī*-prasādam. Prabhupāda: Yes. The Ramakrishna Mission, they take mother's prasādam. And they call... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you will also be mother's prasādam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sudāmā: Even they kill fresh, Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes they will kill a cow who has some disease in liver, and then they will eat and they will all die... Prabhupāda: Well, they manufacture so many ways. That does not mean we have to support it. We accept that these are animals, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? There's a... I was telling. We were talking this morning that in America they have a custom. The children, when they eat a dead, like a bird or something, a turkey. There is one part, I think it's the breastbone. So the children, after one of them finishes eating the breastbone, they both hold, each hold one end, and they break it, and whoever has the biggest part... Each one makes a wish. Whoever gets the biggest part, they think that their wish will be fulfilled. So this is a rākṣasa civilization. So I am only amazed how you were able to make such a big movement with so many, such rākṣasas as we are. That was what I was thinking, that we were the people who were doing that, and that you have delivered us. Prabhupāda: And therefore people are surprised that "How this man is doing like this?" They are surprised. Everyone is surprised. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can't imagine how fallen we were. I don't think they think it's really possible to reform so... Prabhupāda: It is impossible. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you have done the impossible. Sudāmā: Therefore they think that we are hypnotized. Prabhupāda: Even Śrīdhara Mahārāja says that "This pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, we simply thought that it is an ideal, but you have practically done this." He admits that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember. Dayānanda: In London you said that you were changing crows to swans. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dayānanda: It is impossible to change a crow to swan but you are changing crows to swans. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, in reading the description of Jagāi and Mādhāi, they don't seem as bad as we were. Prabhupāda: (laughs) We shall go this way? No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we have time. Prabhupāda: Therefore Kavirāja Gosvāmī says, jagāi mādhāi haite muñi se pāpiṣṭha: "I am lower than the Jagāi Mādhāi." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "And to utter my name..." I think the next verse he says, "To utter my name will bring all..." Prabhupāda: Yes. Mora nāma śune yei tāra puṇya kṣaya: "If one takes my name, then whatever little pious activities you have, it is spoiled." Purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha [Cc. Ādi 5.205], jagāi mādhāi haite muñi se pāpiṣṭha. Mora nāma śune yei tāra puṇya kṣaya. How humble he is. Hari-śauri: Mahārāja Pratāparudra was also thinking like that. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: Mahārāja Pratāparudra, when he was refused interview by Lord Caitanya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: He was thinking, "He saved Jagāi and Mādhāi, but I am so low that I am not able to see Him." *Prabhupāda: Yes. "Jagāi*-Mādhāi was delivered, but I am so lower that I have no chance of being delivered." Pratāparudra Mahārāja. Harikeśa: It's inconceivable how he could think like that. Prabhupāda: No, every Vaiṣṇava thinks like that. A Vaiṣṇava never thinks, "I have become perfect." Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, what to speak of others. [break] ...are carrying cement? Hm? (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 3, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: So Jayapatākā Mahārāja, explain. You have got practical experience. *Jayapatākā: Bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma jāra. Those people who are born on the sacred land of Bhāratavarṣa, they should perfect their life, janma sārthaka kari', and help others. Purpose of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is to perfect one's own spiritual knowledge and then to go and help other people. So people that are born here in Bhāratavarṣa have a special facility because of the Vedic culture, Aryan culture, to perfect their lives. And just as Śrīla Prabhupāda has gone all over the world spreading the Kṛṣṇa consciousness*-one person from this Bhāratavarṣa has been able to do so much-if other pure devotees would come and preach as Śrīla Prabhupāda has done, then how many unlimited amount of fallen souls could receive the benefit of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...in so*-called transcendental meditation, go to the Himalaya and go to the forest. We are not interested in all this nonsense. Our only business is to spread Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, door to door, town to town, city to city. We are not going to seclusion. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "This is professional bluff: 'I am going to the Himalaya. I am going to the forest.' " Prahlāda Mahārāja condemns that "These are professional bluffs." Or they may be sincere, but still, they are trying for their own salvation. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "I am not interested in that sal... I am interested for everyone's salvation. Everyone must go back to home, back to..." That is Vaiṣṇava, not that "For my own salvation I go to Himalaya or in the forest and transcendental meditation, nonsense..." We are not interested in those things. (laughs) And our men... Just like that Gaurasundara. He is doing all nonsense, transcendental meditation. Is it not? Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Rascal. He is doing transcendental meditation. He got so much opportunity to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He did it in the beginning very nicely. A rascal, he became victim. These things are for ajitendriyāṇām. Those who are not able to control the senses, they make this business, transcendental meditation, and secretly doing all nonsense. The whole thing, this transcendental meditation, that, what is that, Maharishi Yogi, they are doing all nonsense and advertising, "We are transcendental meditation." Hari-śauri: They openly advertise that "If you do transcendental meditation, then you can do your business better, you can have better sex life." *Prabhupāda: And that's all. So you can do your sense gratification process, yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi tuccham, what is condemned by Prahlāda Mahārāja, that "This kind of happiness is most abominable and insignificant." Tuccham. Tuccham means very insignificant. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. It is just like itching between the two hand, and after-result is misery. That's all. Iva duḥkha-duḥkham. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ [SB 7.9.45]. They know it, that after this enjoyment of itching sensation there will be so much trouble. But neha tṛpyanti: they are not satisfied. Again and again. Bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Begetting one child... Just see. It is going on. (children in background) No shame. That is animal. No shame. In Western countries they are learning... I have seen. In Los Angeles beach they are having sex open. Just like these birds or beasts. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. They are trying to make birth control. Why? Bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. That illicit or legal sex, the after-result is very miserable. Jayapatākā: It seems that as a country, India's got the best chances for becoming fully Kṛṣṇa conscious again. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere chance. Kṛṣṇa does not say for India. Jayapatākā: But first. Prabhupāda: No. That is not... You are making better progress, Western countries. Kṛṣṇa is not limited anywhere. But in India they have got the facilities. But they are becoming rascals, so they are not taking the facility. The facility is there. That is everywhere, especially in India. You see everywhere, every day, the sunrise, so beautiful. In Western country, some places, sometimes. But here you'll find every day. That is the facility. This is Gāyatrī mantra. Oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ tat savitur vareṇyaṁ bhargo devasya dhīmahi. This facility is in here. You get sufficient sunlight, and in sunlight you keep very healthy and happy. That facility is here. Bhavānanda: Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, last night you were saying, "The sun is moving." We can see the sun has just come up and is moving across the sky. So what do they base their statement that the sun is stationary? They have no basis in fact. *Prabhupāda: Therefore rascals. They see one thing and speak another. That is rascal. Yac*-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta... Huh? Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ. The... aśeṣa-tejāḥ, unlimited temperature and light. They are studied. This is aśeṣa-tejāḥ. If they have studied the quality of the sun, how they can say something wrong about the movements? That is also right. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta-kāla-cakro govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. This is statement. Bhramati. It is never discussed, sthira. Fixed up means sthira. Bhramati saṁbhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. And that is also... That movement is also within the time limit fixed up by Kṛṣṇa: "Morning, half past six, you get up." "Yes." You cannot stop it. Kṛṣṇa's ājñā. It is order of Kṛṣṇa. You stop it, you scientists. You make it conveniently. Not half past six, make it eight. Can you do this? You rascal, you are claiming scientist. Yasyājñayā. It is only by His order you can... You ask him to rise from this side. Why from this side? Is there any scientist can change? Then why they are claiming that there is no God? Huh? What is the answer? Hm? Yasyājñayā. There is some arrangement. What is their answer? Hm? Jagadīśa Prabhu? What is the answer? Jagadīśa: There is no... We don't see how God is working. We don't see... Prabhupāda: Are you blind? God is working. Yasyājñayā bhramati. Yasya, by His order he is rising. Why don't you see God? It is not your order or your scientist order. Somebody's order. That is God. Jagadīśa: But there doesn't seem to be any meaning. There doesn't seem to be any meaning. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning? Jagadīśa: There is no meaning. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning? Jagadīśa: It's just evolution. There's no meaning. What's the meaning? Prabhupāda: I do not follow what is the meaning. The sun is rising half past six, exactly at the time. So there is no meaning? Jagadīśa: We can't tell what the meaning is. *Prabhupāda: That is... Because you are rascal, you do not know. You learn it. One who knows the meaning. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You are fool, rascal. How can you know the meaning? You must have to go to the real person. Jagadīśa: Who knows? Prabhupāda: Guru. Therefore we go to guru. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. One who is actually serious about inquiring, he must go. Guruṁ prapadyeta. Must surrender to guru. Śāstrījī: Śābde pare ca niṣṇātam. Prabhupāda: Ah. That is... Therefore there is guru. Ādau gurvāśrayam. If you know, want to know, first of all take shelter of guru. That is the injunction. Bhavānanda: Then we will ask, how do we know who is really guru? *Prabhupāda: That is another rascaldom. You see how others are taking guru, paramparā system. You are rascal. You will place so many questions. But the answers are already there. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. Guru is he who knows Kṛṣṇa, who explains Kṛṣṇa. That is guru. Otherwise he's not guru. *Dayānanda: Samit*-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, who knows Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. Otherwise all rascals. Why should you go to a rascal? Immediately you can understand he is guru who has fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He is guru. Others? They are all rascals. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is under these four groups: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna. They may talk of so much knowledge, but they are rascal fools because they have not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. All the Māyāvādīs, they are all rascals. They have not surrendered. This is the test. Why don't you take lesson from Bhagavad-gītā? He is guru. One who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, one is servant of Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. That is the test. If you want to select a guru, you have to see "Whether this person is fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa?" Then he is guru. Huh? What is the definition of guru given by...? Why don't you read all these things? Why you remain fools and rascals? Why...? We are following Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā. You become a guru. How? Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That's a guru. Why don't you see all these instructions? And you are presenting yourself as following Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Why? Answer. Why you remain fool and rascal? If you want to remain fool and rascal and question, that is not very good. You must know who is guru. And you say, "I do not know who is guru." Why? Hm? What is the answer? Guru is defined by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. We are chanting daily, śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya prabhu nityānanda śrī advaita gadādhara śrī... Take their lesson. Otherwise why you are praying, śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya prabhu nityānanda? You, rather, glorify Hitler or Mussolini. Make them guru. Everything is there. You cannot say that "I do not understand." Do not understand means you do not take. What is the...? All right? (laughter) *Bhavānanda: You are giving one version of Bhagavad*-gītā, but there are so many versions of Bhagavad-gītā. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Bhavānanda: You are giving one version of Bhagavad*-gītā, but there are so many versions. *Prabhupāda: If you can learn one, then your life will be successful for many thousand years. Hm? Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. You simply understand one verse of Bhagavad*-gītā; then you understand everything. This is the meaning. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. (Bengali) *Sudāmā: I remember once you said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that it took Arjuna less than forty*-five minutes. He understood. But for us it is taking, for materialistic men... *Prabhupāda: Forty*-five thousand years. (laughter) Who is therefore mūḍhas? Intelligent men can answer, understand everything, in a minute. And if he's a fool, rascal, even forty-five thousand years he cannot understand. We are giving the best service to the whole world, trying to make them educated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sudāmā: [break] ...very curious: "What is the power and mystery of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, how he is doing so many things but yet he does not appear like these others yogis who are..., like Satya Sai Baba who is making magic and..." Prabhupāda: But why? Because they have no eyes. Has Satya Sai Baba so many properties all over the world? He is creating gold but has he got so many properties? One property like this? Huh? I started this business with forty rupees; now it is forty crores. Has this rascal has any property like this? (laughter) Jayapatākā: He is producing ashes. (laughter) Bhavānanda: Just like Yogi Bhajan came, remember Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Berkeley, and he said, "I am simply here to try and understand how you are doing so greatly, how you are opening so many temples." He said, "I have simply come to try and understand that point, to learn your secret." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But his idea is that he will then sit and enjoy all of those things. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Nowadays all these yogis and swamis are going. Even that blind saintly person... Hari-śauri: Gange... Prabhupāda: Gangesvarananda. He also went. But coming back, he is disappointed. Nobody took care of him. Although in India he is known as a great saintly person. They have no asset. They have no Kṛṣṇa; therefore they are beggars. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. If one gets Kṛṣṇa, then he gets everything. *Sudāmā: Therefore we pray, "viṣṇu*-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhūtale, śrīmate bhaktivedānta-svāmin iti nāmine." *Prabhupāda: Not viṣṇu*-padāya. Viṣṇu-pādāya. (pronounces with long "a") The Prabhupāda and Viṣṇupāda, the same thing. Viṣṇu is prabhu. Prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. They say like that? Who says that? Sudāmā: Oh, that, how they are trying to understand your powers? Oh, yes, in one college I was lecturing in Kansas. Some students came to me, and they said, "We are amazed." They were disciples of this one bogus yogi. I cannot remember his name. And they were asking me, "How your swami, how your guru has got some power, we are trying to understand." Prabhupāda: Yes. Sudāmā: I told them, "Yes, even we may be unwilling, still, we are forced to serve Kṛṣṇa by his grace and mercy." Prabhupāda: And even the students are asking. That means it has become widespread, if the small boys are asking. They are also studying. So why did you not say, "You are asking why he has become so famous, and still, you do not say more than other yogis? You are asking this question, 'How he has become?' That means he has already become more than. So why you are asking this question?" Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think you are the only real resident of Bhāratavarṣa. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhavānanda: You are the only real resident of Bhāratavarṣa. No one else has fulfilled that... *Prabhupāda: At least historically it be proved. [break] ...cause of envy of my Godbrothers. I was known. Although they knew that Prabhupāda liked me very much, because I am gṛhastha, I was known as pacā*-gṛhastha. Pacā-gṛhastha means a rotten gṛhastha. And now they say, "This gṛhastha has come out more than us? What is this?" [break] Śrīdhara Mahārāja's chief disciple...? Bhavānanda: Gaura. Prabhupāda: He always used to say to Śrīdhara Mahārāja that "You are seeing Abhay Babu as gṛhastha, but he is more than many yogis." He was telling. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even before. Prabhupāda: When I was gṛhastha they were my tenant. So, and he used to say. And then... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He knew. He saw you in your activities. Prabhupāda: Yes, he said that "Mahārāja, you are seeing he is gṛhastha. He is more than many yogis." He used to say, that boy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has good sentiment, then. *Prabhupāda: And Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya, yei kṛṣṇa*-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128]. It doesn't matter whether one is gṛhastha or a sannyāsī. (Bengali) [break]...all big, big men, he was present. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, another twenty thousand dollars was transferred. [break] Prabhupāda: He cannot complain. There is money; there is men; now you have to complete. You cannot say, "For this purpose, it..." No. [break] ...Mādhava Mahārāja, you can say that "Have you seen ever twenty thousand at a time?" And I am bringing daily twenty thousand. Twenty thousand dollars. Not money..., rupees, but dollars. "Have you seen twenty thousand dollars at a time?" [break] Detroit temple, you know? Jagadīśa? Are you going to negotiate. Jagadīśa: Where is this? Prabhupāda: Detroit, the temple. Jagadīśa: Oh, yes, Detroit temple, yes. Prabhupāda: And he was asking 350,000. So I told, "All right, you take cash, 300,000," and he immediately accepted, though I had not three paisa even in the bank. So immediately... The girl has paid? Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: She agreed to pay half and our Ambarīṣa agreed to pay half. It was purchased immediately. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cash. And you only had three paisa. That means one who is servant of the richest, he also becomes rich. You always said, "Serving the greatest, you become great." Prabhupāda: Yes. A big man's son squanders money and the father pays. Similarly, if you become a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, the father will spend for you. Why do you care wherefrom money comes? Bhavānanda: Just like, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you had Dai Nippon print fifty thousand dollars in books in the beginning. *Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. Yes. I gave him five thousand and I ordered him fifty*-two thousand. And I told him, "The money will come." And he said that "Five thousand he is giving advance. Money will come." So they immediately published Kṛṣṇa book, forty thousand dollar worth. Sudāmā: And they told me, Śrīla Prabhupāda, later, that that was the first time in the history of their company that they would ever make any such concession. Prabhupāda: They told? Sudāmā: Yes. Mr. Ogata and Mr. Kugimoto said, "Somehow by his... He is such a great man, His Divine Grace, somehow we accepted." They were surprised. Remember when he went? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were mystified by you, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: When I was coming back from America at that time, I came via Japan for this purpose. At that time you were in charge. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your dealings with them were very memorable. Prabhupāda: They said, "How we agreed?" (laughs) They were surprised. Sudāmā: And whenever I would see the president... That one meeting you had with him... Whenever I would see the president after that, he would always ask me, "How is His Divine Grace? How is he feeling and where is he?" Prabhupāda: I challenged him, "You are Buddhist." "Yes." "You are eating meat?" "Yes." "What is this?" (laughs) That was my first talking with him. Sudāmā: They were wanting to talk business for a long time. You were simply preaching to them. Prabhupāda: Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu went to the Kazi. His first question was that "What kind of religion you are following? You are killing your father and mother?" This was His beginning of the talk. "What kind of religion it is?" "How is that? I am killing my father, mother?" "Yes, cow is your mother and bull is your father. You are killing them. The bull is giving you grains by working in the field, and the mother is giving you milk, and you are killing them." This was his first question. So this is a civilization of killing father and mother. All over the world they are killing bulls and cows. In England there is law that you can maintain a cow but you cannot maintain a bull. It must be killed. Yes. When I was a guest in John Lennon's house the manager in charge, he was telling me. "You cannot keep bull. This is our law." I learned from him. Hari-śauri: Only for breeding purposes. Only for breeding. All the rest are killed. Prabhupāda: This is law in England? So you cannot keep even bull privately. Must be killed. This is the law. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the reason for that law? Prabhupāda: Bull will not supply milk, so there is no use. It must be killed. Otherwise they are ferocious animal. You have made this law. The cows may be given some time to be killed, but the bulls should be killed immediately. This is their law. Hari-śauri: Nor do the farmers actually want to keep them anyway. Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: They are useless animals. *Prabhupāda: Simply expensive. But here in India they know how to utilize bulls*-for transportation, for plowing and so many other things. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Such a shortage of fuel, but there is no shortage of fuel with a bull. Prabhupāda: No, rather, it will supply you gobar, fuel. Whatever he will eat, he will give you fuel. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In return. Prabhupāda: In return. Jayapatākā: But now the government is trying to teach the people that they should buy tractors and kill the calves. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapatākā: They want to have..., make tractors popular and then... Prabhupāda: Kill the bulls. They were criticizing us because in our gośālā we maintain the male calves. Prabhupāda: No, when our Harikeśa was struck by a bull and he was taken in the hospital, the doctor was criticizing, "If you have killed the bulls, then this condition would not have come to you." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. Karma. Prabhupāda: No. There will be no accident because this..., the acci...You know that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I heard about the accident. Prabhupāda: There was some accident, and he was taken to hospital. So he was advised, "Because you do not kill the bulls, therefore this is the accident." As if without killing..., by killing the bulls there is no accident. And they do not cite the accident by motorcar, greater bulls. Accident will be there. Jayapatākā: Yesterday we planted paddy, paddy field. Prabhupāda: Oh. That's nice. But this is going to be a lawn? Jayapatākā: Yes. It will have flower bushes and tulasī around after the construction. The botanical director suggested that on the one end we make a little arbor type covering of vine that Your Divine Grace could sit there and give lecture from there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: And the devotees could sit on the lawn. Prabhupāda: Yes, very nice. Mr. Agarwal said? Jayapatākā: Not Mr. Agarwal. Mr. Mitra, the deputy director of the botanical gardens. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayapatākā: He came out here and gave one design. From Howrah Botanical Garden? *Prabhupāda: Oh. He is the in*-charge? Superintendent. Jayapatākā: Yes. He came with his wife and family. They were very pleased. He stayed for a day or so and then made a whole plan for us. *Prabhupāda: [break] Sun is moving*-that uttarāyaṇam and dakṣiṇāyanam. This ayanam means gamanam. Is it not? Jayapatākā: Northern and southern course. *Devotee (1): In Bhagavad*-gītā there is mention, when yogis... Prabhupāda: Everywhere it is ment... *Śāstrījī: Agnir jyotir ahaḥ śuklaḥ ṣaṇ*-māsā uttarāyaṇam. *Prabhupāda: That is in the Bhagavad*-gītā. [break] ...line there will be pillars? No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Arches. Just like on your veranda. Prabhupāda: Oh, arches. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Exact same pattern. It will keep the same pattern. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Sudāmā: But on this one time should we bathe directly? Prabhupāda: No, you can bathe śālagrāma. Sudāmā: Bathe śālagrāma. Prabhupāda: Bathe the śālagrāma-śilā. Sudāmā: Place Him... Place the Deity there and śālagrāma in front of Them and then bathe śālagrāma. Prabhupāda: [break] ...made so gigantic and so opulent. And we make Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura on the gate? How foolish they are. The doorkeeper? *Jayapatākā: I challenged them that "Why you are putting Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura on the gateway?" So they say, "Well, this was in memory because when..." They say when Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was a magistrate that he used to go there and he used to watch the local people do their..., do some sports and horse*-racing and things, and so as memory they are making there. Prabhupāda: So you are so intelligent, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura was not so intelligent that he could place him. But you are so very intelligent, you are surpassing Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. So you are intelligent or fool? You should answer like this. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jumping over guru. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Monkey's business. Prabhupāda: He could not understand where Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura should be placed. You have understood. You are so intelligent, overintelligent. That means rascals. Overintelligent means rascal. Bhaktisiddhānta Ṭhākura, he remained so many years and he could not understand. You have understood to make Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura a gatekeeper. You tell him next time when you..., that "You are overintelligent." [break] ...statue of..., picture, I think, of Bhakti... That Sakhi Babu. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which bābu? Prabhupāda: Sakhi Babu. Jayapatākā: Yes, Sakhi Babu, he is there. Bhavānanda: Opposite. Prabhupāda: So that means he is on the same level. [break] ...Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura on the gate is the proof how fool he is. He has not shown respect to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura; he has disgraced. Jayapatākā: Now the government is saying that they have to knock down those temples because of the encroaching on the roadside. Prabhupāda: Now where Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will go now? What was... What was your guru mahārāja's plan for where he...? I don't understand. I mean, did your guru mahārāja want a... Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's statue was there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So why was... Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinoda... Because it was their... My guru mahārāja never tried to bring him here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what happened? Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they did it? Prabhupāda: No. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's picture was there, not that on the gateway. Bhavānanda: In the back. Prabhupāda: They should have taken away that building which was constructed, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, and placed him there as separate temple. You see? That red... That was constructed by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean that school building? Bhavānanda: No, no, in the back. Prabhupāda: Just on the side of the temple. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Old building. Prabhupāda: Yes. If they wanted to show some respect they should have installed him there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just next to the temple. Your guru mahārāja did not build because there was something already in Svarūpa Gañja. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So why don't they be satisfied...? Prabhupāda: No, they are bigger than Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not their position. Prabhupāda: Overintelligent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember one time Kārttikeya Mahārāja was chanting to a picture of Bhaktisiddhānta. You chastised him and said, "What is your connection with Bhaktisiddhānta? Your connection is with me." Prabhupāda: Who said? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You did. Sudāmā: You did. I remember. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When Kārttikeya Mahārāja was chanting to your guru mahārāja's picture, you said, "How you can connect with him? Your connection is with me." (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 4, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: Then, in the morning, it rises reddish. So why it does not look reddish always if it is fixed? Harikeśa: Well, the material scientists say it's because of the atmospheric condition. It refracts the light in such a way that it becomes reddish. That's what they say. Because it's thicker atmosphere. You have to look through more atmos... Prabhupāda: Then how it comes so high? After few hours it goes so high. Harikeśa: Well, there is less atmosphere to look through. Why it goes up there? Prabhupāda: So that means move? Harikeśa: No, no. Because we're moving this way. The earth is rotating. Prabhupāda: You are moving, but why you say sometimes this position and sometimes that position? Harikeśa: Because the earth also moves like this. It's going around the sun, and then every day it rotates once. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: It rotates on an axis like this. So therefore the sun seems to go around, but actually it's the earth that goes around. *Prabhupāda: Now, if you measure when this sun and when it comes meridian distance, so do you think the earth is moving so quickly? It is... According to their modern science, the earth is moving twenty*-five thousand miles only throughout... No, within twenty-four hours. Harikeśa: That's around the sun. Prabhupāda: Huh? Then is it possible... *Jagadīśa: Twenty*-four-hour day, twenty-five thousand miles circumference. Prabhupāda: So how earth has gone so quickly round that it is seen, the different position of the sun? This means sun is not fixed. Sun is moving. And in the Bhāgavata it is said that it is moving at the rate of sixteen thousand miles per second. I think I have calculated that. Sixteen thousand miles. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda? Does that mean that the sun is going around the earth? Prabhupāda: Hm? Hṛdayānanda: Is the sun going around the earth? Prabhupāda: Sun is going around the whole planetary system. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The scientists think the whole planetary system is going around the sun. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, earth is also moving? Prabhupāda: Hm? Bhavānanda: Earth planet is also moving? Prabhupāda: Along with all other stars. That you can see at night. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are all moving around the polestar. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: So that means that the more we learn material education, (we're) just becoming more and more foolish. Prabhupāda: Yes. Material education means mūḍha. This is also material education, the movement of the sun. But they are not perfect. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if the earth is moving so fast, why isn't everything blown off? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhavānanda: Why are we not blown off the surface of this planet? Now it's moving so fast. How are we able to remain here and not be blown off? Prabhupāda: I do not follow. Bhavānanda: The planet is moving... Harikeśa: He's saying, "We're moving, so therefore the wind should blow everybody off, the speed." Hṛdayānanda: Why is everything so peaceful if we're moving so fast? Prabhupāda: Which is moving so fast? Hṛdayānanda: Well, Bhavānanda said... Bhavānanda: Planet, this planet is moving so fast, but it doesn't appear to be moving at all. *Prabhupāda: Suppose a small ant is on some big wheel, does it feel anything, movement? A big wheel and a small ant. What he will feel? This is called relativity. Law of relativity. Why you are thinking that relatively you are very big? That is your foolishness. You are nothing, insignificant. Therefore you are surprised when Kṛṣṇa appeared as Varāha*-mūrti, to take the whole earth on His nose. Who will say it is mythology? You do not know how great Kṛṣṇa can become. Mahato mahīyān. Aṇu... What is that? Hṛdayānanda: Aṇor aṇī... Śāstrījī: Aṇor aṇīyān anusmared yaḥ. Prabhupāda: Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyāt. So He is greater than the greatest. Yaśodāmāyī thought that "My child are eating earth? So show." She saw all the planetary system within His mouth. So she thought, "What is this? All right, don't do this." (laughs) Hṛdayānanda: So to accept a spiritual master means that one has to learn everything again. Prabhupāda: What is that? Hṛdayānanda: That to accept a spiritual master means that we have to learn everything over again. Practically everything we learned was incorrect. Prabhupāda: It is correct to some extent but... Just like you can see to some extent, but that does not mean you can see everything. You have got limited potency. This is called unlimited and limited. We are limited. Harikeśa: Actually I think it makes much more sense, because when the scientists say that the earth spins around this way very quickly, then his point is valid. Why we don't fall off or why we don't feel good? Prabhupāda: It is not quickly. It is only... Harikeśa: But when the Bhāgavata says the whole thing moves, then there is no friction. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Therefore it is still. It's not rubbing against everything because everything is moving. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this earth also. According to them it is going around the sun. But we don't feel anything. According to them. And according to..., it is running at the rate of twenty*-five thousand miles, and if you, in airplane, it is going six hundred miles per hour, and still there is so many jerking. That is your creation, tiny machine. And God's creation, it is moving. Even it is moving, you cannot understand. That is perfect creation. Pūrṇam. The word is pūrṇam idam, everything perfect. Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate [Iso Invocation]. Because God is all-perfect, whatever He has created, they are all-perfect, relatively, all perfect. Just like this earth. It is all-perfect. Whatever you want, you inhabitants of this earth, they are all there. You want air, water, light? Everything is there. Pūrṇam idam. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate, pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya. So you are using so much water, so much light; still, it is perfect. Just like the cultivation. Every year you are taking so much production. Still, again you can take. This is pūrṇam idam, perfectly done. That is God's creation. This is body, you see. You have to capture something. You require some solid thing here. It is there. If it is..., it was soft, only skin, then you could not catch this. How perfectly it is done. It is required here, not the whole finger. This is called perfect creation. The sensation of sex is in a particular position, not everywhere, because if that sensation were not there, then nobody would feel sex, and there would be no creation. This is called perfect creation. The same sensation could have been here, there. No. That particular sensation is there to induce him. Similarly, everything is going on. How to fix it? Every body is made... Every body is made according to the work it has to do. You see? The pig, it has to eat stool. His mouth is made in a different way. The tiger has to eat meat; his mouth is made differently. This is called perfect creation. Hṛdayānanda: And also among human beings, different human bodies are made differently. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. According to... Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. So according to the guṇa he's infecting, the body is made. If you infect some disease, smallpox, then you must get the disease. There is no excuse. *Hṛdayānanda: So a devotee... It is said in Bhagavad*-gītā that a devotee is above the modes of nature. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Hṛdayānanda: It is said in Bhagavad*-gītā, sa guṇān samatītyaitān [Bg. 14.26]. So when a devotee becomes very advanced, does that means that he should not feel a particular, an inclination to do a particular work but simply want to serve Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise how they can give up sex life? Unless he is liberated, how he can give up sex life? Harikeśa: That's something which puzzles all the materialists. *Prabhupāda: Mater... They are rascals, mūḍhas. Their only title is "mūḍha," ass. Viśvanātha Cakravartī has described the karmīs as mūḍhas. Karmīs are lowest grade of mūḍhas. And above them the jñānīs. And above them, muktas, liberated. And above them, bhakta. And above all bhaktas, kṛṣṇa*-bhakta. This is the graduation. So karmīs, they are all mūḍhas. *Bhavānanda: There are other kinds of bhaktas other than kṛṣṇa*-bhaktas? *Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Nārāyaṇa*-bhakta, viṣṇu-bhakta. They are all Kṛṣṇa, but above all of them is kṛṣṇa-bhakta. *Bhavānanda: Many people in India, they say they are śiva*-bhaktas. *Prabhupāda: They are all in the material world, karmīs. Karma*-kāṇḍa, ritualistic ceremonies. Prahlāda Mahārāja has described them. What is that very word used? And meaning is "one who cannot control their senses." Avijita-indriya. Ajitendriyāṇām, ajita, "one who could not conquer the senses," they are called karmīs. Ajitendriyāṇām. So all these penances, silence, meditation, then studying the Vedic literature, and so many things are there. Prahlāda Mahārāja, in one word he says, "They are meant for ajitendriyāṇām, one who could not conquer over the senses, for them." And for a devotee, one who is actually pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he is sa guṇān samatītyaitān [Bg. 14.26]. Not that a tiny devotee can claim that he has overcome the influence of this world. No. This is called paramahaṁsa. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān [Bg. 14.26]. Not that because you have taken to devotional..., you have become immediately. The process has begun immediately, curing process. But we should not think that we have become perfect. That is wrong. Yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-karma na tyājyam. Therefore you must follow the regulative principles. As soon as you become a rascal-"Now I have become advanced. I don't require to chant sixteen rounds. I can do whatever I like"-then he has gone to hell. Upstart, immediately he becomes paramahaṁsa. He's a rascal. He was given the path of becoming paramahaṁsa. One is admitted in the school, he must learn, and one day he will become M.A. But simply by entering in the school, if he says, "I am M.A.," that is rascaldom. This is a chance. To become jitendriya is very difficult task. But it is easy if he immediately becomes a pure devotee. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūṇyam: [Brs. 1.1.11] "Everything make zero, all desire, except Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is wanted. But that does not become very easily done. One has to try very rigidly; *then he'll be paramahaṁsa. Therefore amongst the devotees, there are three grades: kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī, and uttama-adhikārī. So if the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī thinks that "I have become uttama-adhikārī," then he's a rascal. He's a rascal. If he wants to imitate the uttama-adhikārī, then he's a rascal. Hṛdayānanda: Is that cheating propensity? *Prabhupāda: Not cheating. Foolishness. It may not be cheating, but he does not know. Arcāyām eva haraye pūjāṁ yat śraddhayehate... What is that? Na tad*-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu... Hṛdayānanda: Bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ. The beginning is arcā, arcana. And because he was given the chance of arcana, if he thinks that "I become paramahaṁsa," then he's a foolish. It will take time. The process is there. Therefore preaching is madhyama*-adhikārī. One should take to preaching work gradually. When the preaching... Preachers, they have got discrimination, "Here is abhakta; *here is bhakta." But in the paramahaṁsa stage, uttama*-adhikārī, he sees "Everyone is devotee. I am not devotee." That is uttama-adhikārī. Just like Kavirāja Gosvāmī said, purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha [Cc. Ādi 5.205]. Sanātana Gosvāmī said that "I am born in low-grade family. My work is low grade." [break] ...issued that complaint? "I am the counterpart." Śāstrījī: Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. *Prabhupāda: The laborers have not come yet? [break] ...Bhagavad*-gītā verse? Puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca? What is the full śloka? Puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca. That this flavor of the rose... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Original fragrance of the earth"? Prabhupāda: Yes. Out of that, most fragrant flavor, Kṛṣṇa says, "I am directly that." So if you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, having this flavor, he'll understand, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca. This flavor is there all over this earth, but you cannot see it. That does not mean there is no God. But He is there. Viśvakarmā: It would be easier for them if they didn't live in the cities, because the cities make it so hard for anybody to understand there is a God. *Prabhupāda: After all, understanding... Therefore they are mūḍhas. They have to understand. If they do not understand, they remain mūḍha. That is human life. The human being should understand that "I am mūḍha, so I'll have to learn." And the Vedas says, "Then go to guru." Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] "You must go if you want to learn." And if he remains mūḍha and speculates, then he remains mūḍha. He never gets the enlightenment. He remains continually... Mūḍhā janmani janmani mām aprāpyaiva [Bg. 16.20]. He cannot get God. Life after life, he will go on like that, mūḍha. Asuriṣu-yoni. Asurika-yoni. He'll remain completely ignorant about God, what was his function, only function to understand God during this life of human form of life. And so-called science wants to keep him rascal and mūḍha, that's all. Therefore we fight so much with these rascals, big rascals. They want to keep them. He is mūḍha, he is blind, and he's trying to lead other blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām [SB 7.5.31]. Rascal does not know that he is hand and bound..., hand and leg, bound up by the laws of material; *still he denies, that "I am independent. I can think independently. I can avoid God," and so many things. Therefore they are mūḍhas. He cannot do it. In every inch he is bound up, and still he is thinking, "independent." That is the first*-class mūḍha. Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. Every... Dark, darkness. He keeps himself in darkness. This life was given to him by nature to become liberated by understanding God, but he does not take care of. He is making plan: "We shall be happy like this. We shall be happy like this. We shall be happy like this." Therefore they are mūḍhas. That will not help him. He does not know that. And if he simply tries to understand Kṛṣṇa, he becomes immediately liberated. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti.. [Bg. 4.9].. Everything is there. But he will do so many plans, and nothing will be successful. He'll avoid Kṛṣṇa. This is the first-class mūḍha. Athāto brahma jijñāsā, the Vedānta philosophy's first instruction: "Now you inquire about God. This is the only chance. As cats and dogs you cannot do that. Now, atha, ataḥ. You have enjoyed your senses so much as cats, dogs, tigers, so on, so on. Now you devote to understand, inquiry." Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's about five minutes to seven, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: We shall go? No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you like. It's a little early still. You could walk out to the front gate today and see how they are painting. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes. So let us go. [break] ...says, uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpta*-varān nibodhata.(?)Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo. Still he will sleep in this human form of life and remain animal, cat and dog. A simple word, jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo. This is Vedic instruction. Uttiṣṭhata jāgrata: "Get up. Be awakened. You have got this body. Try to understand God." That they will not do. They'll come to fight: "Oh, you are playing mṛdaṅga at four o'clock and disturbing my sleeping?" This is going on. "Let me go to the police. You are trying to awaken me from my sleeping? You are trying to make me intelligent? Let me remain fool. Why you are disturbing me?" Māyā's influence. Kota nidrā jāo māyā-piśācīra kole. Simply wasting of time. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau **. The Gosvāmīs, they conquered over sleeping first, nidrā, then eating. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. What is this? Bhavānanda: It says, [break] "...when not in use." Prabhupāda: What is this? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's for the gate. Prabhupāda: So why it is like that? People may fall down. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In other words, it should be up there in the day. Prabhupāda: [break] ...again mūḍha. *Sudāmā: [break] ...speaking about how they are complaining that we are waking them up. A very interesting story... In Hawaii for one year every day this one man living next door to us every morning would call the police force at guru*-pūjā. So many cars would come, three, four police cars. So finally, after one or two weeks' coming, they would come very happily, and they would take prasāda. So they came because he called, they had to follow his complaint, but they told me personally, "We are coming not to arrest you or complain. We like your activities. Please give us some prasādam." Hṛdayānanda: Also in Caracas many, many police cars come to the temple for prasādam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, I think your dhoti is pulling... Hṛdayānanda: [break] ...that the people against us were trying to prove that we're not actually a real religion. So the judge became very angry at the other lawyer and stood up on his bench. The judge stood up and said, "Are you trying to say that these people are not a bona fide religion?" And the lawyer said, "No, your honor. No." (laughter) *Hari-śauri: In Sydney they spent ten thousand dollars, the council, compiling a case against us. Every day they used to come and film us and take names. And we didn't contest the case but just carried on saṅkīrtana, and the judge threw them out of court. They spent ten thousand dollars-it was a big scandal*-and lost the case. The judge said, "Why not let them go on the streets? They add a lot of color to the city." Hṛdayānanda: [break] People are always asking about you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm. [break] No, I shall go now. Is it direct flight? No. Hṛdayānanda: It is very far away. Everyone is... Even the guests, everyone is always asking about Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was wondering whether*-I was speaking with Sudāmā Mahārāja-whether it would be possible for him to come and be in the boat program with Sudāmā Mahārāja. (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 5, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: ...kinds of rascals. Hṛdayānanda: One theory is that there has always..., the material nature has always existed. It was never created, and it will never be annihilated, and there is no other cause. It's simply an eternal fact. Prabhupāda: But how always existed? Nothing here ever exists... This house was never existed. It's created. Hṛdayānanda: But the elements existed. Prabhupāda: Elements exist, that's all right, but the format, how it is created? Hṛdayānanda: They say it's not created. It's an eternal, unexplainable fact. Prabhupāda: Ha ha. That he is a foolish. That is rascal. Immediately rascal is captured. Indian man: Śrīla Prabhupāda? (Hindi) Prabhupāda: [break] Unexplainable, that means why he is trying to explain, rascal? Immediately captured. Harikeśa: You may all laugh now, but in the future we're going to find a solution. Prabhupāda: That is another rascaldom. "I am rascal, and future I am going to be very intelligent." Talk of presence. You are, at the present moment, you are rascal. That's all. Don't talk. Rascal cannot talk. Hṛdayānanda: Another theory which is taught... Prabhupāda: So this theory is rascaldom. Then another theory...? Hṛdayānanda: Is that actually God created everything, but after creation God is no lon... Prabhupāda: No, then... No, that's all right, "God created everything." That means acceptance of God. Then we come to the science of God, what is God. Hṛdayānanda: Well, God created, but now God is... Prabhupāda: Don't imagine. I am asking what is the current theory. Hṛdayānanda: Yes, that God is... God now is in a dormant condition. Harikeśa: God is dead. Prabhupāda: God is dead. After creating, He is dead. Harikeśa: He used Himself up. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: No, but, no, they say... No, that's not what they say. They say that God created, and now God is in a dormant condition. Prabhupāda: Whatever condition, there is God. That you have to accept. Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, what is that God? Hṛdayānanda: Well, God does not directly take part in the material creation. He simply created... Prabhupāda: That's all right, but He creates by His energy. Just like I am creating this institution, but I am not doing directly, but my men or my assistants, they are doing it. (sound like conch) What is this sound? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Intercom. Prabhupāda: So why this intercom? Inter...? Hṛdayānanda: To speak from one room to another. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It connects the pūjārī room and... It connects the pūjārī room, the office, your secretary, and up here, Bhavānanda Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: [break] ...accepted, now He created and that... What is that next? Explain. Hṛdayānanda: Now God is dormant, in a dormant condition. Prabhupāda: What is that dormant? Hṛdayānanda: He has no more activity. He simply created, and now He has no more activity. Prabhupāda: Well, "no more activities," that's all right, but He is active. Suppose I am walking. I may not walk half an hour. That means I have got the capacity of walking. That you cannot say, that my walk... Because I have now stopped walking, you cannot say that I cannot walk. Is another nonsense. How you can say "dormant"? He is active. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dormant implies He was active. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Was active, He is active, but you, you rascal, you cannot see. You cannot say, "Once He was active. Now He is no more active. He has finished His activity." That you cannot say. Dormant? What do you mean by dormant? Huh? Dormant means potential. He can act. And He is acting. That acting you have to learn, how He is acting. He appears to be not acting, but He is acting. That is knowledge. Just like airplane is running. A intelligent man knows that "The pilot is there. He is acting. Therefore it is running." And a foolish man will say, "The airplane is going automatically." That is the question of observation. A foolish boy... I have given this example many times, that I was thinking that in the fan there is a ghost. But the idea is, there must be somebody. Although I was a child... I could not explain how the fan is running in my childhood. I was thinking there must be some ghost. And in the gramophone box I was thinking there must be one man within this box. So this is foolish thinking, but I was convinced that without somebody, it cannot sing or it cannot run. Even one is very innocent child, he can think like that. So whole thing is going on, prakṛti, the activities of material nature... Just like there was cloud and rain. Now it is not raining. So there is activity already. It is being managed. So you cannot say that God is dormant. He is acting because His creation is acting, and God says that mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram: [Bg. 9.10] "Under My direction the nature is working." How you can say He is dormant? The nature is working? Harikeśa: Well, just like a man may make a chemical reaction in the beginning by mixing two or three chemicals, but then the reaction takes place by itself. It doesn't need the man once he started it. Prabhupāda: No, doesn't need the man... He is needed for another reaction. That will not take automatically. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So another theory is why you have to say that there is a cause? It was always there. There was no cause. It was always there... Prabhupāda: No, it is caused. Why do you say "God created"? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we say there is no God, and the creation was always there. There's no question of it not being there. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was always there. There was always... Harikeśa: It's eternal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's eternal. There's no question of any creator being required. It is there. Prabhupāda: No. Then why do you say, "God created and He became...?" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't say. Prabhupāda: He said. Hṛdayānanda: He's another rascal. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has... He is some sentimentalist, a fanatic, religious fanatic. Prabhupāda: Then you talk. He said "God created." You say not. Then you talk. Now you decide. Now he has accused you that you are a nonsense. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a religious fanatic. I told him, he's a religious fanatic. Prabhupāda: Not fanatic. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have no explanation, so you're simply giving it the name God. Prabhupāda: No, why not explanation? Why not explanation, that "Nature is working"? He said that "God is dormant. God created," and he accepted. And "God is dormant. He is not doing anything." But no, that's not the fact. The nature's work is going on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nature is going on. Prabhupāda: So the nature is directed by God. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Why not? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not. It's moving of its own accord. *Prabhupāda: Then he is another rascal. Nature cannot work automatically. Just like mother. Nature*-mother. The mother cannot produce child without father. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Father and mother required. Prabhupāda: Yes. So how do you say, "The mother is producing child without any father"? That you cannot say. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but why are you comparing nature to a father and mother? Prabhupāda: This is also nature. Everything is nature. Are you outside nature? That is another nonsense. Your body is nature; your activities are nature; everything is nature. How you can say you are out of nature? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. He has got some intelligence, I have got some intelligence, but the intelligence is coming from nature. Otherwise how you are intelligent? Somebody is intelligent; somebody is dull. Unless there is some background, how do you find the difference? Here you see some flower is red, some flower... Why? How it is being done? You cannot say "automatically." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we say... We agree, everything came originally from some elements. Prabhupāda: That "some" He has explained. He is God. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we don't... We say that those elements were always there. There is no need of any creator of those elements. They were always there. Prabhupāda: No, no. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are the basic elements. Prabhupāda: Yes, "always there," but there must have been creation of these elements. Just like in the laboratory, you... Soda bicarb. Carbonate mixed with soda makes soda bicarb. Sulfuric acid. You take sulphur and turn into acid by mixing with something else. That is going on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the original elements were there. There's no need of any creator. Prabhupāda: You are already... That you know, do not know, but the original elements also produced. That is not automatic. Anything you are taking... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we have no... How can you say what happened so many years ago? Prabhupāda: We don't say, "so many years." We say it is created by... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is your proof? Prabhupāda: Proof? What proof you want? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, what is your proof of what happened millions of years ago at the beginning of creation? You say that... *Prabhupāda: No, the same thing is going on. Millions of years there was sunrise. Now sunrise is still going on. Do you think that millions of years there was no sunrise? It is going on. The same thing is going on now here. Because you are foolish, you cannot see. Nothing has changed. The same thing is going on. Millions of years the father*-mother combined and there was child, and that is going on still. Harikeśa: Oh, no. No, no, no. That's only been going on for about three thousand years. Hṛdayānanda: No, no, even the scientists don't say that. Harikeśa: Yeah. Four or five thousand years. Hṛdayānanda: No, no, no, scientists don't say that. Harikeśa: At most, fifteen thousand years, they say. Hṛdayānanda: No, no, no, they don't say that. You have to keep up to date. It makes good arguments. Harikeśa: What do you mean? Hṛdayānanda: They don't... They say now millions of years. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What? Human beings? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. How to present good arguments. Harikeśa: Millions of years? Hṛdayānanda: Yes, they say that. Jagadīśa: One scientist said that. Hṛdayānanda: No, no, no. It's accepted. Harikeśa: Really? Hṛdayānanda: Yes, I've seen many quotes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was in an anthropology department. They don't accept millions of years. They said forty thousand years ago there were no... Prabhupāda: And what was before forty thousand years? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Apes. Prabhupāda: Yes. And wherefrom the apes came? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lesser..., lesser*-mentality beings. Everything originated... Prabhupāda: So anything is a development. That is, therefore, called Darwin's theory of evolution. But where the evolution begins? That is the question. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It begins from these primordial elements. Prabhupāda: So where that elements came? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were always there. They are eternal. Prabhupāda: Then? Then why you say, "From this time it begun"? Everything is eternal. There is no question of beginning. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why is because it developed? Prabhupāda: Yes. All rascals, simply rascals. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it's not very easy for us to give good argument with these bogus... Harikeśa: We can't even keep up with their theories. Hṛdayānanda: The main argument among the philosophers, the atheistic philosophers, is that "God could not exist because if God existed, if God were good, then why would we be suffering? God would stop our suffering." Prabhupāda: Because you are criminal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. If your father's good... Prabhupāda: Eh? No, it is criminal. That is... You say that there are so many persons in the state. Not all of them are suffering in the prisonhouse. Only the criminals. So that is the proof that you are a criminal. Hṛdayānanda: God could have... God could have created me in such a way that I would never have fallen down. Prabhupāda: He has created, but He has given you independence. Jagadīśa: God wants us to enjoy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāśirāma: Why has He given us that independence if in that independence we...? Prabhupāda: Then you are not living being. You are dull stone. God does not want that you remain a stone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Free will" means living being. Hari-śauri: But if he gave us the material world to enjoy, then why do we have to suffer here? Prabhupāda: No, no, enjoyments... You do not know what is enjoyment. You suffer. Just like you are voracious eater. You eat and then suffer. Then no eating. That means you are nonsense. You do not know how much to eat. Just like you require little salt with your food, and if you put one ser of salt, then that is your foolishness. Because salt has to be eaten, it does not mean that you bring the whole ocean to make it salty. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. That is the instruction. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if you know how to... *Prabhupāda: Whatever direction is there, you take that. The medicine is given. Doctor gives direction. "So many drops you can take." Now you say, "Oh, the good medicine. Let me eat the whole thing. I become cured immediately." Then you die. You have to take, enjoy, but according to direction. God does not say that "You don't enjoy." You are, what is called, ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). A living entity means ānandamaya, enjoyment. But that ānanda, where it is permanent ānanda, how we have to reach that permanent ānanda, that is being taught. Otherwise, you foolish, you'll eat the whole medicine and die. That's all. Therefore the varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma means that is real human civilization. There is direction that "You enjoy like this." And if you become mlecchas and yavanas, then you'll not enjoy. You simply suffer. You do not know how to enjoy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if one abides by the law of God, then he can become happy. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: God has made that arrangement. Prabhupāda: That is stated in *Viṣṇu Purāṇa*. *That is said, varṇāśrama*-dharma. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, unless one comes to the regulation of varṇāśrama-dharma, that is not human civilization. That is actually the fact. That is the same dog's society. That is going on. If there is no brāhmaṇa, qualified brāhmaṇa, who will give direction? There is no... If there is no kṣatriya, then who will give protection? If there is no vaiśya, then who will produce food? And if there is no śūdra, then who will work for general assistance? This is scientific. Harikeśa: You have defeated us all again. Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: We are all defeated. Prabhupāda: You? Harikeśa: Everyone. *Prabhupāda: Without varṇāśrama*-dharma there is no civilization. Yes. They are trying to abolish this under the name of "caste system." It is not caste system. Caste system, or whatever you call, there must be these four division. Not four, eight. This is general, that brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Then, according to the brahminical culture, the spiritual, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. And after sannyāsa, then spiritual life, complete, śuddha-sattva. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you have to establish varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāra. Ācāra. Ācāra. Varṇāśrama ācāra. Yes. Because the aim is... Again we come to the... Just like state affairs going on, but ultimate aim is to keep the government satisfied. Then you'll get everything nicely. Similarly, the supreme government or supreme governor is God. That is your duty, to keep Him satisfied. Then you get all direction, all facilities and life. That is the aim. But these rascals, they do not know what is government or who is the governor. They are doing anything whimsically, and they're punished. Prakṛti is there. Prakṛti is there. Government does not want that you suffer, but you violate the government's law. Therefore you suffer. That these rascals do not understand. They declare, "There is no government." So this is foolishness, ignorance, mūḍha. There is government, he sees, and still he is rascal. He says, "No, no, I don't care for anyone. There is no government." That is atheism; that is hooliganism. *Hṛdayānanda: So the so*-called... Prabhupāda: He is dying. He doesn't want to die, but still he says, "There is no authority." He's suffering. He is becoming old. He doesn't want to become old, but he is so rascal, he does not question, "Why I am becoming old?" So therefore they are all rascals. He says, "I am independent," but he is forced to do something, and still he is independent. What is the remedy? Just like prisoner. He doesn't want to obey. The... A constable comes and kicks him, slaps him. Still, he says, "No, I am independent. I don't care for you." What is this? Hm? (Bengali?) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, it's time to go downstairs, if you want to walk outside... Prabhupāda: What is the time? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Five minutes past seven now. Prabhupāda: So they have not come, the workers? Jagadīśa: They are there. [break] Hari-śauri: ...without birth, death, disease and old age, then we can simply say that "You already were like that before, but you gave it up because of your mentality." Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that? Hari-śauri: A person already has the position where he doesn't have to experience birth, death, old age, like that. So if they argue like that, "Why doesn't God give us that position where we can enjoy without God consciousness...?" *Prabhupāda: God has given, giving you the position that "You obey Me, and you get the position," but because you are rascal-you are not obeying*-you are suffering. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like a hog takes stool instead of sweetmeat. The hoggish mentality. Prabhupāda: That is God's mercy that he wants to eat stool, and God has given you, "All right, you eat stool. Take this body." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not that God is not offering him sweetmeats, but the rascal won't eat them. Prabhupāda: Yes. He has got such a body that he does not relish sweetmeat. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! Haribol! Kāśirāma: Śrīla Prabhupāda, why do we have this rascal propensity? Prabhupāda: Hm? Kāśirāma: Why do we have this rascal propensity? Prabhupāda: Because you are rascal. That is the only reason. Because you are rascal. Gurukula boys: Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda! (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 6, 1976, Mäyäpura Hṛdayānanda: ...absorbed in thinking that, for example, in this material world a sunset is very nice or something is very nice. But if, for example, in Māyāpura is a devotee free to, for example, enjoy the, all the scenery without... Prabhupāda: Do you think Māyāpura is material world? Hṛdayānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Why you are asking? Hṛdayānanda: That is what I was thinking, that this is... *Prabhupāda: Dhāma. Therefore it is called dhāma. Dhāma means not material world. Goloka*-dhāma, Vṛndāvana-dhāma. So dhāma is not material world. (aside:) Not to go away. [break] ...visible with these eyes, similarly, dhāma also is not visible with these eyes. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. That is dhāma. Premāñjana. Jagadīśa: [break] In Toronto, Śrīla Prabhupāda... When we purchased the new church in Toronto we sold all the church pews. And Billy Graham... Do you know who Billy Graham is? He's an Evangelist preacher in the United States. He sometimes went to that church to preach. So when we sold the pews we would tell people that "Billy Graham sat in this pew," and they would become excited to purchase. Prabhupāda: So it was sold in good price? Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's nice. Hṛdayānanda: As you are always saying, Prabhupāda, these people are not becoming purified. This one man who Jagadīśa mentioned, he's the most famous Christian preacher practically in the Western world. Now he's becoming older, about sixty. Recently they asked him that "If you could live your life again, would you live the same life or a different life?" So he said, "I am very sorry because I spent too much of my time preaching. I should have spent more time with my family." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he actually said that? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. At the end of life this is his... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's the foremost Christian preacher in the world right now, Prabhupāda. Hṛdayānanda: He said, "I accepted too many invitations to go preach. I should have spent time with my family." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That will make him more popular, and they'll say he's more religious. Hṛdayānanda: [break] ...already left to preach. *Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. [break] Eh? Dhunvanti, aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ.(?) This is Kṛṣṇa. In one second He can make it purified. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ [Bg. 18.66]. Simply surrender. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like our desire not to surrender is very powerful because Kṛṣṇa is so... Prabhupāda: Not powerful. Yes, powerful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa is so powerful and yet our nonsense is so strong that we can resist such a powerful force as Kṛṣṇa's love. *Prabhupāda: Now the whole sky clear, hundreds of miles. [break] ...all right? Where is in*-charge? [break] ...and clan spirit. Aborigines, they fight amongst their clans. Hṛdayānanda: Aborigines? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Africa. *Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda? You wrote in a letter to Bhagavān... You said that originally the Europeans had Aryan*-type culture but they have become degraded. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They are still Aryan. Europeans are Aryan, Indo*-Aryan. That is admitted in history. Hṛdayānanda: You said that they became degraded by associating, by bad... Prabhupāda: Yes, by association with these aborigines. Hṛdayānanda: Who were the aborigines they associated with? Prabhupāda: Everywhere there were aborigines. In India there are still aborigines, ādivāsī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were saying, Prabhupāda, the Huns. Prabhupāda: Huns. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Huns. They were considered like that? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Huns are also lower than the śūdras, caṇḍālas, dog*-eaters, animal-eaters. And these Europeans historians, they take the aborigines, their original father. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their what, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Original father. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said, "Yes, they are your original father." Prabhupāda: No, no. "The aborigines, the naked jaṅgalīs, they were original person." Do they not? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Before that, there was the caveman. Prabhupāda: Ah, caveman. That's... Caveman. That is aborigine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And before the caveman was the missing link. Prabhupāda: And he has known missing link. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't know who they're missing, 'cause he's missing. Prabhupāda: Just see the imagination, fanatic imagination. He is creating... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Species. Prabhupāda: ...a theory, a species. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Missing link species. And they have... They have models of this missing link. Prabhupāda: They know it; still "missing." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Although it's missing... Prabhupāda: "Missing" means they know only, "Oh, he knows." Hṛdayānanda: When I was preaching in California, one very famous anthropologist came to speak there, and he gave a new theory about the origin of the species. So he said... Before the audience he said that "Actually we have very little evidence of this theory." Prabhupāda: Hm? Hṛdayānanda: He said that "We have very little evidence for this theory," but he said that "All of you should not be disturbed because our previous theory, we had no evidence whatsoever. [laughter] So this is an improvement." Prabhupāda: He admitted. "Previous theory, that was nonsense," and still the nonsense going on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "So don't be disturbed." Prabhupāda: Yes. "So you are dealing with all nonsense. Don't be disappointed." *Hṛdayānanda: Another professor, he was very, a world famous geneticist, professor of genetics. I remember, when I was a student there, he was always trying to prove that there was no God. That was his mission. So he was in so much anxiety-he's an older man*-that he would simply stand up every day and shake. During the whole class he was actually shaking with anxiety. He could hardly speak. He was famous scientist. Prabhupāda: Why he was shaking? Hṛdayānanda: He was in so much anxiety. He was very, very nervous. He would just shake, always trying to prove there is no God. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...their society, and they are advocating, "No temple or Deity worship." So one boy, so he was a member of this society. So there is Śītalā*-mātā, the goddess of smallpox. So he had some trouble in the house, smallpox. So he thought of going to the Śītalā-mātā's temple. So he's entering the temple and seeing in this way, "Mother, I am your devotee but they will tax me. Therefore I am going out." (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So this man, he is afraid of God, but he has to preach there is no God. So he was feeble. Hṛdayānanda: In every class he would smoke at least four or five cigarettes. He was so nervous. [break] *Prabhupāda: The living entity is victimized, and in this life you can adventure to conquer over it. This is human life. The cats and dogs, they cannot fight with māyā, but a human being, he can fight. So if we don't fight, we don't take that adventure, then we remain cats and dogs. The cats and dogs, they fight amongst themselves but not with the māyā. So aborigines, although they have got features of human being, they are no more than the cats and dogs. So they also fight amongst themselves. They do not know that the fighting spirit should be utilized to declare war against māyā. That is possible in human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This fighting is philosophy. "What is the ultimate cause? What is Brahman? What I am?" Fighting against darkness, sleeping. Kota nidrā jāo māyā*-piśācīra kole. Everyone is sleeping on the lap of māyā. Now, this human form of life is not for sleeping but for awakening and fight with māyā. That is human life. [break] You were reading the other day why the sun changes color after rising? Jagadīśa: The refraction of the light rays. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: He said that the light rays pass through the clouds, and this diverts the light rays in different ways. Prabhupāda: So where is the cloud? Jagadīśa: Not necessarily a cloud. Dayānanda: Through the atmosphere, the air. Indian man (1): Atmosphere density is different, so it changes. Prabhupāda: Density? Jagadīśa: When it is directly overhead... Prabhupāda: Oh, it is fixed up. Why it should change? Jagadīśa: When it's directly overhead, there is... Prabhupāda: No, no, overhead means it has gone. If it is fixed, why it should change color? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have gone; it has not. Jagadīśa: It changes color to us. It doesn't change color. To our eyes... Prabhupāda: Why? Jagadīśa: ...the color changes. Prabhupāda: Why? Jagadīśa: Because our eyes are not so..., are blunt. Hṛdayānanda: They say because the light rays... Prabhupāda: No, no. If the sun is fixed, so why our eyes will change? If we see in the beginning, as you see, it is red, and it is fixed, it should remain red. Hṛdayānanda: They say the atmosphere changes. Jagadīśa: The light of the sun filters through the... Prabhupāda: Atmosphere changes? Where is atmosphere changes? It is the same atmosphere. We saw in red and the atmosphere same. Jagadīśa: Angle. Hari-śauri: According to your angle of vision. Indian man (1): Medium. Medium. Prabhupāda, there is... Prabhupāda: Yes, you are all scientists I know. Please talk with one body. What is that? Jagadīśa: There's an angle... Prabhupāda: (laughter) All rascals. Scientists means all rascals. That I know. You haven't got to explain. I am trying to understand that if the sun is... Suppose a red light is fixed. So red light is always red light. Why it should be white? What is the cause? Jagadīśa: They say there's a spec... Prabhupāda: "They say." What you say? What you have understood? Jagadīśa: There's a spectrum of different colors which, combined together, is white light, but when the light bends, the different colors of light bend at different angles so that the... Prabhupāda: Why the light bends? I am a crude man; I am not scientist. I say I see one red light there. So it is always red. Why it should be white? Jagadīśa: But the sunlight... Prabhupāda: Again "sunlight." Please explain this. The light is fixed, and it is reddish. So why it should change? Jagadīśa: Only part of the light reaches us, the red part, not all the... Prabhupāda: Anyway, the color changes. Jagadīśa: Because in the beginning, when the sun is red, only the red part of the light spectrum reaches our eyes. Prabhupāda: Oh. That means it is moving. Red part is gone. Then white part comes. Jagadīśa: Then, when the rest of the light reaches our eyes it becomes white. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say we are moving. It is not moving; we are moving. Prabhupāda: I am moving. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The earth is turning. The sun is... Hṛdayānanda: They also say the sun is moving. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But very slowly. They say the earth is turning, so you see the sun as moving, but actually you are moving. Just like if you are in a car and you are moving, it may appear that just as... Sometimes you can see another object... Prabhupāda: But that's all... But why the color should change? That is point. You may move... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because, he's explaining, that light is seen when it bends... White light when it bends at different angles... Prabhupāda: That is only applicable when you accept that the sun is moving. Therefore atmosphere is going... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, the earth is moving. Jagadīśa: They say the earth is turning. Therefore at a certain point the sun is actually below the horizon, but part of the sun's light, the red spectral, the red light of the sun, comes over the horizon and so the sun appears... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Red, but actually it's not reddish; it's white or yellow, whatever. Prabhupāda: Actually it is white, that's all right, but if you see one fixed thing, a color, practical experience is the color does not change if it is fixed up. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing you are... Supposing there's a white light, and you are situated here, and in front of you is a screen with many colors, and you are moving different ways along this screen. Sometimes you are looking through a green, sometimes... in that way although the light is fixed up, because you are moving behind different colors... Prabhupāda: So where is that screen? Jagadīśa: That's called the spectrum. Prabhupāda: Spectrum. So where is that? That is also finished? Hṛdayānanda: The atmosphere is. Dayānanda: The atmosphere is the screen. Jagadīśa: As the spectrum hits the atmosphere, it bends. Dayānanda: Just like a prism, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Then the speed of the earth changes. Eh? In the morning you see the sun is very slowly rising, either sun's speed or your speed. But now you see it is rising very quickly. Jagadīśa: That's explained that because the sun... Actually you can see it before it appears over the horizon because the light rays reach our eyes before the sun actually comes up. *Hṛdayānanda: But that's only eight minutes' difference. That won't explain it, because the light rays reach in eight minutes. That won't explain it. That would only cause an eight*-minute difference. Jagadīśa: No, no, no. No, it's not because of the time it takes. It's because of... The light rays bend. So they bend towards us before the sun comes up. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can't actually see the sun. You're seeing only a... Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda said, "But it rises so quickly." Jagadīśa: Huh? Then, once it comes up over the horizon, we see it rise at its normal pace. Hṛdayānanda: Doesn't explain. Word jugglery. [break] Prabhupāda: ...fixed. [break] Indian man (1): Fixed? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (1): Is not moving around the earth? Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's further away from us than the sun and twice as big as the sun. Ask Prabhupāda how big is the moon. Indian man (1): Prabhupāda, how big is this moon? Is much more bigger than this? Prabhupāda: You can see in the Fifth Canto. There is. Hṛdayānanda: That means that māyā is just like a magician. *Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. Therefore it is called māyā. Māyā means magician. Māyā means... māyā means affection, māyā means illusion, magician, so many things*-strength, potency. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is your explanation why the sun changes colors? Prabhupāda: Hm? Jagadīśa: What is your explanation as to why the sun changes colors? Prabhupāda: Sun is moving. You are seeing through some color. Then it is color. Jagadīśa: Seeing through some color. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like there are... In your window there is glass, red. So sun is passing; you say sun red. And again it has come; it is white. That is our... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the scientists say the same thing except they say that the earth is moving, not the sun. Same explanation you have given for the colors, they give, except that they say that the earth that is moving, not the sun. They wouldn't accept that point as a proof that the sun is moving. Prabhupāda: No, sun is moving because the earth and the sun... The distance is the same, but you can calculate the distance from the rising up to the... It is millions, millions of miles. So unless the sun is moving, the earth cannot move so swiftly. Jagadīśa: They are always the same distance apart? Prabhupāda: Hm? Jagadīśa: The earth and the sun are always the same distance apart? Prabhupāda: Same distance is to be supposed according to your theory, because sun is fixed. Jagadīśa: According to our theory. Prabhupāda: Yes. The same distance. But you calculate that how quickly it comes. You calculate the distance. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, how can the earth move so quickly? Jagadīśa: The earth is just spinning around. Hṛdayānanda: Yes, they would say that that is not from the..., that is not from the earth moving around the sun. That is from the earth rotating. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rotating on its axis. Hṛdayānanda: And turning different sides, different faces to the sun. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And that's possible. That speed the earth could do. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That much speed the earth could do, simply to turn around on its own... Prabhupāda: No, no. Hṛdayānanda: That's rotation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's rotation, it's not an orbit. Jagadīśa: Like a top, spinning. Indian man (1): From its axis. Hṛdayānanda: So they say the earth is spinning around so fast. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why doesn't it fall off? That's another point, Prabhupāda. The earth is spinning, they say, but it's tilted on one side. So why it doesn't fall over? Prabhupāda: This earth? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Scientists say the earth is like this. Indian man (1): Yes. Making an angle, Prabhupāda, spinning around its axis. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: My question is how something doesn't fall, just fall over? Like a top. If you spin a top, when it starts spinning on its side it falls over. Jagadīśa: But so far space is concerned, they don't see that there's a top or a bottom where it can fall. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then why do they say axis? Axis means there's a top and a bottom. Prabhupāda: [break] ...by mental platform, on the mental plane. Jagadīśa: When I was in the university I took a course... Prabhupāda: [break] Yes. The same example. This was spoken by one scientist in Delhi, that if a man has learned how to imitate the dog barking, people will go to see him by purchasing ticket. But he won't hear the dog, real dog, barking. So we are like that. We are trying to imitate dog. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it here, Jayapatākā? Yes, here. Prabhupāda: [break] ...fective, what you can see from the observatory? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why they use a telescope, to make their eyes perfect. Prabhupāda: Everything is imperfect. Hṛdayānanda: Telescope also imperfect. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: With the help of the telescope, then their eyes become perfect to an extent. Prabhupāda: To ext... That is not perfect. As soon as you say, "to extent," that means imperfect. Perfect to the point, that is perfect. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Limitedly perfect. Prabhupāda: That is not perfect. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your philosophy will be very unpopular with the general masses, Prabhupāda, because you are condemning everyone. Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are fools and rascals. Hṛdayānanda: No, but Prabhupāda presents it so nicely that people will like it. Indian man (1): Especially... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's true, Prabhupāda. Sometimes you call them "rascal" to their face, and they like it. Jagadīśa: That's what happened to us. Indian man (1): Especially Indians. Lot of people like strong words. This rascal means... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In America it's not such a strong word. In America that word "rascal" is not so strong as in India. In India when you use that word, they become very offended. Indian man (1): Yes. Very strong. Dayānanda: In America they like to be rascal. Hṛdayānanda: In America if the father chastises the child, he calls him "rascal." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has a nice connotation. Prabhupāda: [break] māyāra adhikāra. Now the ruling of this, what is called, fog is finished. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Night also. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Night also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything darkness finished. The sky is clear. Hṛdayānanda: The fog was just on the ground. It wasn't up... Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: I saw in the morning the fog was low but it was not high up. *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is finished, high or low. Explain that there is such*-and-such things in the sun, eh? They say? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then why do they not manufacture another imitation sun? If they know what is the composition. Hṛdayānanda: They're so puffed up that they think that actually the credit is to them for discovering. Just like they... Prabhupāda: Where is discovering? It is covering. Hṛdayānanda: They give the example that if a tree falls in the forest and there is no man there to hear it, then actually it has not fallen. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hṛdayānanda: This is a philosophical example which is... This is the most common example they give, that if a tree falls in the forest but there is no man there, there is no one there to hear it, then actually it has never happened. Unless someone perceives it, then it does not exist. So they feel that when they discover something, at that time it begins to exist by their becoming conscious of it. Prabhupāda: What is that explanation? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if you're sleeping and I kill you and you weren't conscious that I was killing you, then you're still alive? Prabhupāda: You are not killed. Then it comes as a... You can go to the court: "It is not killed." Hṛdayānanda: They will say that... No, I will say. I will take the part of the rascal. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hṛdayānanda: I'll be the rascal. "No, actually I am killed, because even though I may not be conscious of it, someone is conscious of it. As long as someone must be... Just when something... It is necessary that someone be conscious of it." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, supposing in the woods. You're in the woods and I kill you during your sleep. There is no other human being there. Hṛdayānanda: "But you were conscious of it. You were conscious of my death, so therefore my death is a fact." Prabhupāda: Then in the forest there are no animals? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: They cannot... They are not conscious? Hṛdayānanda: Well, if an animal hears, that's all right also. As long as someone is conscious. Prabhupāda: In the forest there are many animals, hundreds and thousands. They are conscious that tree has fallen. Then? Hṛdayānanda: Then it would also be acceptable. As long as some living being has... Prabhupāda: Then what is this? Everywhere someone is conscious. There is no vacancy. So this is useless talking, fool's talk. Hṛdayānanda: In the outer space there is no consciousness. Prabhupāda: Who says? The fools say. There are consciousness. There are so many birds flying from one planet... Hṛdayānanda: Higher up. *Prabhupāda: Higher means it is higher for you because you are so dwarf. You are so dwarfed, you'll find that this tree is very big tree. You see? A small dwarf man, a pigmy, he'll say, "Oh, it is a big tree." So it is all relative. What is called? Relative world? Higher and lower, this is all relativity. You are so low that you see a tiny thing very high. It is due to your lowerness. Where there is no tree, these trees will be considered: "Oh, very high tree." So your scientists and your appreciator, all, they are like tiny dwarfs. What do they know about the universal affair? That is their fault. They are so small... That, the same example, Dr. Frog, calculating Atlantic Ocean. This is the fault. They do not consider their position. Just like there are thousands of ants. We can immediately kill them. And they are thinking they are very big, the ants, that "We are very busy. We are very big." So these rascals' position is like that. If the devatās in higher planets like, all the population of this material, this earth, they can kill like this*-finish. Just like we can kill the ants. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, in the Sixth Canto, second part, I haven't read it yet, but I saw a picture of a big demon who was fighting, and everyone else was just like little ants. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That was described in some English book, the man? Hari-śauri: Gulliver's Travels. Bhavānanda: Gulliver's Travels. Prabhupāda: Ha, ha, yes. These rascals, they do not know there is Gulliver. They are thinking very big. Bhavānanda: Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when there is some natural calamity... Like I read in the newspaper, four thousand people were killed immediately in Guatemala. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: That is also the demigods? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, greater than you, you admit it, demigods or God or anything. But why you are thinking yourself so big? That is your fault. That is foolishness. I am a big man amongst a small, tiny living entities. But why you are thinking you are biggest of all, you can understand everything? That is your fault. This is the folly of the conditioned soul. He is nothing. He has no value. Still, he is thinking he is very great. Everything is big and small relatively. Just like here if one man has got 100,000 rupees, he's a big man. But what is 100,000 rupees in America? Nothing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One year's salary for an average man. Hṛdayānanda: A worker. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lakhpati. Here they call, lakhpati. Lakhpati means owner of 100,000 rupees. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lakhpati. Prabhupāda: So what is this lakhpati there? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This fog appears just like an ocean, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It looks just like the ocean. Prabhupāda: Frozen. Frozen ocean. Means they are defeated; they are coming down. By the sun they are defeated. They were high. "Now go down." Now it will be finished. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Burnt off. [break] What is the way to draw the line between the following three things: blasphemy, fault*-finding, and calling a spade a spade? Prabhupāda: A spade a spade... Just like I am saying that "What you are? You are small fig only." That is reality. And what is the other? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The other is fault*-finding and... *Prabhupāda: Fault*-finding, that is another fault, that... vraṇam icchanti, makṣikā vraṇam icchanti, madhum icchanti(?) Just like the flies, they are finding out where is sore, and the bees, they are finding out where there is honey. So two animals, they have got two business: fault-finding and collecting the good things. These are two... Just like creature. They are two classes. Similarly, there are many rascals who are simply fault-finding. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And blasphemy? Prabhupāda: Blasphemy means you have good qualities, but still, I am defaming you. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the saintly person tends to overlook the bad qualities and see the good ones. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like Kṛṣṇa's dealing with Pūtanā. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Hundreds and thousands of miles, this fog, simply by two minutes' light of the sun*-finished. [break] ...working. If there was no sun, then so many ships are standing on the ocean. The cars, they are "bong, bong, bong, bong," so many disturbances. You see? You cannot do anything. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī [Bg. 7.14]. What you can do? Immediately He can kill you all. Thousands of planets immediately finished. Bring your science to protect them. No, not possible. Māre kṛṣṇa rākhe ke. When Kṛṣṇa desires to vanquish, nobody can save you. Finished. Still, these rascals say, "There is no God." Simply rascals. At least expose these rascals. We have no power to kill them, but at least we can expose them. That is also great service. Hṛdayānanda: Sometimes, Prabhupāda, when we expose them, their argument is, "Oh, you are a saintly person. Why are you criticizing me?" *Prabhupāda: No, it is not criticizing. It is opening your eyes. You are blind, you are thinking yourself as very big, so we are opening eyes. You are not big. You are not even pig or fig. That is... ajñāna*-timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalākayā. You are blind with ignorance, so we are trying to open your eyes. See things as they are. It is favoring you. It is not criticizing you. [break]...words, vibhu, the great, and aṇu, the small. So these rascals, they do not understand these two important words, "God is great; I am small." They think, "I am as good as God." This is the folly. [break] ...English proverb? "Where angels dare not, the fools rush in." Eh? Hṛdayānanda: "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." *Prabhupāda: So the angels, Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva, they are offering their obeisances, and these rascals are claiming, "I am God." How great rascals they are. Śiva*-viriñci-nutam [SB 11.5.33]. Śiva-viriñci-nutam. Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, they are offering their respects, and these things are: "I am equal with God." This Māyāvāda philosophy. Mūḍhas. *Dayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, that tendency to be puffed up seems to be so strong, as soon as they get just a little bit of so*-called qualification, then they... Everyone is becoming puffed up, even great personalities like Lord Indra and Lord Brahmā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dayānanda: What to speak of all the... Prabhupāda: Lord Brahmā is also one of the living entities. Dayānanda: So how is it possible that... We're so insignificant, but at the same time we become so puffed up? How is it possible for us...? Prabhupāda: That is material consciousness, that you are nothing you are thinking very big. That is material consciousness. And as soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you'll simply think, "Kṛṣṇa is great; *we are nothing, insignificant." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so long you think that you are independent of Kṛṣṇa*-you are also another Kṛṣṇa-then you are fool, rascal. Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. Hṛdayānanda: That's our madness. *Prabhupāda: Madness. The whole world is going on on this foolish understanding. Therefore they have been described, mūḍha, all rascals. Anyone who is thinking, "There is no God, there is no Kṛṣṇa, it may be He is impersonal, there is no personality, and I am equal to Him"*-these are all rascals, fools. Dayānanda: So actually there is no way to become detached. Prabhupāda: The only way is that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Dayānanda: Except through Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mām eva ye prapadyante. You surrender to Kṛṣṇa and everything will be clear, just like as soon as the sun rises, everything is clear, no covering. That is our propaganda, that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious; then you become fully aware of everything. Otherwise you remain rascal, fools, gādhā, asses. If you prefer to remain asses, you can do so, but we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. We must preach real, reality. Dayānanda: Even the jñānīs and yogis become... *Prabhupāda: What is these jñānīs? They are also another rascal, another edition of rascals. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Therefore so*-called jñānīs, after many, many births' practical realization, they surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā [Bg. 7.19]. Then he understands that Kṛṣṇa is everything. But such great person is very, very rare. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ, very, very rare. Dayānanda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion? *Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktābhāsa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktābhāsa. Ābhāsa. Ābhāsa means a simple, a little light. Hṛdayānanda: So devotee really means one who has love for Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11], zero, all other, that "I am this, I am that, I am jñānī, I am yogi, I am karmī, I am minister, I am king"-all these are thinking like that, they're all nonsense. "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa"*-that is greatness. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. That is self-realization, ātma-tattvam. Dayānanda: So because that person is very rare, then, I guess, the only way we can possibly know how to become like that is to find one pure devotee and exactly follow that way of Kṛṣṇa consciousness that he has. Prabhupāda: Hm? Dayānanda: I mean to say that because a pure devotee is so rare, the only way must be to find out a pure devotee and exactly follow. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you try to find out... (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 9, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: ...from the *Bhāgavatam*. So this should be mentioned. It is not only a temple, but a planetarium according to *Bhāgavatam*, where which planet is situated, where is Vaikuṇṭhaloka, where is Goloka Vṛndāvana, where is Mahar... Devotees: Wow! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want a real planetarium just like in the West. Jayapatākā: That's what I told them, Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: ...that this is not a temple; this is like a big cultural exposition, museum, planetarium. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Boy, Prabhupāda, the people will pay... Everyone will pay a rupee to go in and see that. One rupee for that, one rupee to ride the escalator. Prabhupāda: And there will be escalator to take them to different planetary system. Mention there. Bhavānanda: My father... In those planetariums, they use a machine in the center that shoots out light. My father helped to invent that, so we could probably... Prabhupāda: So bring your father. Father and son, both together. He is... Where he is? Bhavānanda: In America. Prabhupāda: So call him. He'll not come? Bhavānanda: I don't think so, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Demon? *Bhavānanda: No, no. He reads your Bhagavad*-gītā every night. Prabhupāda: Then? Then why he'll not come? Bhavānanda: I think he's too much attached to my mother. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Your mother is not old enough? What is the age of your mother? *Bhavānanda: Sixty*-eight. *Prabhupāda: Oh, still she is attractive? (laughs) A girl of sixty*-eight? That's nice. Very good husband. And what is your father's age? *Bhavānanda: Sixty*-eight. Prabhupāda: And mother? *Bhavānanda: Sixty*-eight. Prabhupāda: Same age. Bhavānanda: Same. Jayapatākā: American system. Prabhupāda: No, here also, some cases. Gandhi's wife was one year older than Gandhi, yes. Kaustubha Gandhi, she was seventeen years old, and Gandhi was sixteen years old, and they were married. There are many cases. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was arranged by their parents, or they did it themselves? Prabhupāda: Yes, by their parents. Except in Bengal, in other provinces they do not take much care of the age. Generally the bridegroom is older. Boy is older than the girl. [break] ...was married, he was eleven years old. Hṛdayānanda: Eleven years old. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And his wife, my mother*-in-law, was seven years. Dr. Rajendra Prasada, the president, he was married when he was eight years old. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughing) How old was his wife? Prabhupāda: He was sleeping. The marriage party goes to the bride's house. So it was to be... The time fixed was at twelve o'clock or one o'clock. So the bridegroom was sleeping. So all the men made: "Oh, get up! Get up! You have to be married! Now you get up! Get up! Get up!" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He didn't understand. Prabhupāda: He did not know what is marriage. "Get up! Get up! You have to be married now." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So in such cases they would live separately, though, until they grew older. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Until the girl is twelve, fourteen. She must be pub..., be puberty period. Then... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But still, they know who they are married to. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they don't have any anxiety. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...age was at that time eleven years. So she came to live at the age of thirteen years, and at fourteen years she gave birth to a child. Hṛdayānanda: How old were you, Prabhupāda, when you... Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: How old were you when you got married? *Prabhupāda: I was student, so we were living separately. When she was thirteen years old, after puberty, then she was at... But there are many mothers still*-the difference between the child, first child, and mother, twelve years. There are many mothers. At twelve years they gave birth to a child, especially in Bengal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In America that is considered very horrible. Hṛdayānanda: Why? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Catastrophe. Prabhupāda: All my sisters were married within twelve years. My second sister, she became twelve years, and I heard my mother become so disturbed: "Oh, this girl is not being married. I shall commit suicide." (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At twelve! *Prabhupāda: Twelve years. And she was given to a boy, my brother-in-law, for the second marriage. Means that my brother-in-law lost his first wife, and still, he was twenty*-one years old. My sister was twelve years old and brother-in-law was twenty-one. In the śāstra... I do not know exactly what is that śāstra, but they say that if the girl before marriage has menstruation, then the father has to eat that menstrual liquid. Means it is, mean, very strict. And if the father is not living, then the elder brother has to eat. [break] ...ty of getting the girl married rests on the father. In the absence of the father, the eldest brother. The girl must be married. That is it. It is called dāya, kanyā-dāya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dāya. *Prabhupāda: Dāya. Dāya means legally inheritance. That is called dāya. Just like your father's money you get automatically. So similarly, kanyā*-dāya means to get the girl married is a dāya. You cannot refuse it. It is incumbent, you must do it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many of our, the girls in our society, they have reached that age, but they are not getting married. Prabhupāda: No, your society is different. Now it is here also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean in ISKCON, in our society. Prabhupāda: ISKCON is not going to be social reformer, but as far as possible, we can help. Our main business is how to make everyone Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our business. We cannot take up, but if possible, we can take up all the system of varṇāśrama. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If varṇāśrama is neglected, then how can there be proper functioning of society? *Prabhupāda: No. If the society chants Hare Kṛṣṇa seriously, then it is all right. Never mind whatever is done. It doesn't matter. Pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari*-nāme uddhārilo. This is the power of hari-saṅkīrtana. If one is absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all benefit is there. So long in the bodily concept of life, we require this varṇāśrama-dharma. Otherwise there is no necessity. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu you have read in the eighth chapter, Madhya*-līlā, talk between Rāmānanda Rāya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu? So "Perfectional life how begins?" This question was raised by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and Rāmānanda replied, "It begins with the varṇāśrama-dharma, regulated social life." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He rejected that. *Prabhupāda: Not rejected. "Yes, it is not very important." Eho bāhya: "This is external." Āge kaha āra: "If you know something more." So the varṇāśrama*-dharma is a good help undoubtedly, but it is not important for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise how could I start this movement in the Western country? There was no varṇāśrama-dharma. But that did not hamper my movement. Now people are surprised: "How these people have become such great devotees." So it was not based on varṇāśrama-dharma, no, because the whole movement is spiritual. It starts from the spiritual platform, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. Samāśritā ye pada-pallava-plavaṁ mahat-padaṁ puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ, bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ param. Now just like here is a gap. So you can go by the bridge, and if you can jump over, that is also going. That is also going. So to become Kṛṣṇa conscious means to jump over to the spiritual platform immediately. And this varṇāśrama-dharma, sannyāsa, varṇa-tyāga, karma-tyāga, these are different steps only. But if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious seriously, then you jump over all these steps; you go immediately. That lift and the staircase. By staircase you go step by step. By lift you can go immediately, faster. Hṛdayānanda: Even some of these women, they're not married but they are serving Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ [Bg. 9.32]. This striya, generally they take it, "Even she is prostitute," striya. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim: "They can also go back to home, back to Godhead." Māṁ hi pārtha... If he takes Kṛṣṇa very seriously, then everything is possible. No impediment. Ahaituky apratihatā. Kṛṣṇa devotional service is so strong that it cannot be checked by any material impediments. The smārtas, they are thinking like that, "How these mlecchas and yavanas can become a brāhmaṇa?" But they do not know that by Kṛṣṇa consciousness one can jump over. Māyām etāṁ taranti te. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Māyā is very strong. Therefore there are gradual process. Varṇāśrama*-dharma, karma-tyāga, this, that, so many things, pious activities, rituals. But this is the process, step by step, to cross over māyā. But Kṛṣṇa said, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Anyone who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa sincerely, immediately he crosses over. As Kṛṣṇa says in another place, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi: [Bg. 18.66] "I'll do immediately." So māyā means pāpa. Unless one is sinful, he cannot be in māyā. So if one surrenders, then he, means, immediately crosses over māyā. So these smārta brāhmaṇas, they consider this thing. They are thinking, "How a person born in other families, they can become brāhmaṇa?" Hṛdayānanda: So they have no faith in devotional service. Prabhupāda: No, they are... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was the conclusion last night with Caitya*-guru and Mr. Motilal. I couldn't follow in... *Prabhupāda: [break] Then you come to Gītā's instruction, guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. And Nārada Muni also says that one must be qualified, not the birth. Just like this Mullik, and we had the same gotra, but the marriage cannot take place within the same family. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Within the gotra. In the same gotra. Prabhupāda: The same title, De, and same gotra; *therefore it is the same family. That is the proof. So in the same family there cannot be any marriage. Sa*-gotra. Sa-gotra-vivāha-niṣedha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So no member of your family could have married someone in the Mullik family. Prabhupāda: No. There is another Mullik family. They are different from our family. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not De's. Prabhupāda: They are not De's. They are Sil's. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cee? Prabhupāda: Sil. Their title is Sil. Bhavānanda: Sil. Sil. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Sil. Prabhupāda: Sil Mullik and De Mullik. There are two Mulliks. Their gotra is also different. So in the marriage, before marriage taking place, one has to calculate whether they belong to the same family, same disciplic... Then, if it is the same, the marriage will not... Same blood will not be accepted. Same family means same blood. So throughout the whole world same blood is not allowed, marriage. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's going on other places in the world too. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All over the world. They say that what will happen... One thing that will happen is that if there's any... Of course, this is scientists' explanation. If there is any weakness within the family line*-that means bodily weakness, mental weakness, or anything... Prabhupāda: No, even it is not weakness, it will create weakness, same blood. The different blood will create some incentive, different flow of blood. That is scientific. But who cares for that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nowadays... Prabhupāda: The Mohammedans, they accept the same blood. Therefore they are not very intelligent. Throughout the whole world the Mohammedans are not very intelligent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They marry within their family. Prabhupāda: Yes. And uncle's daughter. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Uncle's daughter. Prabhupāda: Yes. The father and his brother, so his daughter, his son can marry. Bhavānanda: First cousins. Prabhupāda: First cousin, yes. Jayapatākā: There was some case of that in the royalty in France, and they got some bleeding disease from that, hemophilia. If they got any cut, then that would never heal. It would only bleed until they died. Prabhupāda: So it is very scientific not to get married of the same blood. Jayapatākā: Many people ask us what gotra we are. *Prabhupāda: You are acyuta*-gotra. You can say acyuta-gotra. Acyuta means never falls down. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Never falls down. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is such a gotra as that? *Prabhupāda: Yes, acyuta*-gotra. All devotees are... We are identified with Kṛṣṇa's family, acyuta-gotra. [break] ...madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta. Acyuta is Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa conscious man means acyuta-gotra. (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 10, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: What is this meaning? Hari-śauri: They say that's just a figure of speech. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: A figure of speech. Not meant to be literal. *Prabhupāda: Everything is theory. No practical. [break] ...ten direction. Eight direction, corner, and northeast, east-west, and up and down. So everywhere He is present. So Kṛṣṇa has got ten hands. So my father used to say, "When Kṛṣṇa takes your money or possession in ten hands, how you can protect it with two hands? And when He give you in ten hands, how much you can take in two hands?" (laughs) So in my case it has become practical. Everything He has taken in ten hands, and now He is giving in ten hands. (laughter) I am practically experiencing. My Guru Mahārāja ordered me, "You do this." I was trying to save my business, my family, with two hands, and Kṛṣṇa took it in ten hands. And now, after making me beggar, He is giving me, ten hands: "You take as much as you like." Now I am thinking of my father's instruction. [break] ...ambition was that I become a great de... bhāgavata. That was his... He used to invite so many saintly persons, and he would pray, "Please bless my son"*-I was very pet son-"that he may become a devotee of Rādhārāṇī. Rādhārāṇī may bless him." That was his only prayer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fulfilled. Prabhupāda: Yes. He was inviting so many saintly persons. That is the old system, to receive saintly person. Hṛdayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that you were not so much impressed by the saintly persons that were coming. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: Why was that? *Prabhupāda: Not all of them were real Vaiṣṇava. That was my discrimination from the beginning of my life. I never liked these bogus swamis and yogis. I never liked. But my father had no discrimination. "Never mind whatever he is. He is a saintly person. Receive him." He was giving fortnightly... There was one Māyāvādī sannyāsī in Kālīghāṭa. So first of all the father was sannyāsī. Then his son was sannyāsī. So we had very good relationship with him. I also used to... Because father was going... So he would carry gāñjā for him*-in those days gāñjā was very cheap-so much gāñjā and so much butter. Whenever he would visit, he'd give some red cloth, gāñjā, and butter. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your father would give him gāñjā? Prabhupāda: That, to sannyāsī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why? Prabhupāda: Well, he was smoking gāñjā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But why did he supply him? Prabhupāda: He did not discriminate that this is bad. He smokes, and he had some regard for him. "All right, take gāñjā." (laughter) Hṛdayānanda: So Kṛṣṇa is also like that if we... Prabhupāda: He was offering him something, "Whatever he likes." That was his theory. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Friendly. Prabhupāda: Yes. "It doesn't matter." He did not know the gāñjā smoking was bad for sādhu. That is impression in India. We criticize, but in India, in every sādhu samāj they smoke gāñjā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Still? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Not high class. These bogus swamis and yogis. They... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that Mr. Das, the lawyer who came here? Prabhupāda: Ah. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I used to visit him, and he had one sādhu who used to come who was his guru, and he would also smoke gāñjā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gāñjā smoking is not taken as bad in India, by the sādhus, not ordinary men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. He told me, Mr. Das, that it increased his meditation and ecstasy. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, gāñjā smoking by the sādhus, sannyāsīs, is not taken very bad serious. The hippies learned from them. Allen Ginsberg introduced... "Yes. Gāñjā smoking is very good by the saintly person." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think your Guru Mahārāja spoke strongly against such persons. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And from him we learned that intoxication, any kind of intoxication, is bad. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura also was... Prabhupāda: He was also not very serious, but Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura was very serious, and we learned from him. No, it is śāstrīya. No intoxication is good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How is it that Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was not so strict in that regard, yet his son, who learned from him, became very strict, like a rod? *Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura was so strict (laughs) that because he married twice, he used to say, "strī*-saṅgī, attached to woman," even his father. (laughter) He was very strict. Sometimes when he would be angry, he'd, "You strī-saṅgī." And don't discuss this thing. (laughs) He was very strict. No excuse, no compromise. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's where you got all of that from. Prabhupāda: My is imitation, but his was real. (laughs) All these Navadvīpa people were afraid of him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Afraid. *Prabhupāda: Strong*-hearted. They made a, what is called, conspiracy to kill him. Hṛdayānanda: Who did this? Prabhupāda: Oh, the Navadvīpa gosvāmīs. They raised 25,000 rupees and wanted to bribe this police officer that "You take this money. We shall finish him. Don't take any action." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the policeman said? Prabhupāda: Refused. "Yes, we take bribe, but not in such cases." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why? Prabhupāda: "He's a saintly person. We cannot agree to that." Everyone knows police takes bribe. They admit, "Yes, we take bribe, but not in such cases." This was told by Guru Mahārāja, Bhaktisi..., to me. He was talking many things confidential. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, what is that story that one time Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī was invited to... He wanted to get invitation or he was invited to speak and they put so many conditions on his speaking. It was some place. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They said, "Now you cannot speak on such and such subject." He agreed, "All right." Prabhupāda: I think there was a Vaiṣṇava meeting inaugurated by Mahārāja Maṇīndrānandī. You are referring to that. [break] When I was visiting, I used to sit on his couch. Yes, like... Guru Mahārāja was sitting on the couch, so I took him as ordinary gentleman. So then nobody asked me that, that "You are sitting? Get down." No. Nobody asked me. Then I was seeing that all other big, big disciples, they are sitting down. So then I began to sit down. Neither Guru Mahārāja told me, neither anybody told me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of a... It was a regular couch... Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...or a cauki? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not cauki, couch. That padded couch, bench. Hṛdayānanda: Sofa. Prabhupāda: Sofa, sofa, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, boy. You were a young man at that time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But no one said anything. Prabhupāda: Not very young. It was in 19... Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 1923? Prabhupāda: No. '23, of course, when I first met him, he was sitting ground. I was also. At Mathurā there was party, parikrama party, in 1933. So I went to see that party, what they are doing, Gauḍīya Maṭha, out of inquisitiveness. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It was at that time. Prabhupāda: Hm hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned once that most of the parikrama devotees, they wanted to go on parikrama but he was speaking? *Prabhupāda: Yes. So I did not go to parikrama, so he very much appreciated. There was announcement that "Now parikrama will start in the evening at five, and Prabhupāda also will speak. So anyone who wants to hear Prabhupāda, he can stay. Otherwise be ready for going." So about a dozen men remained, and all went to parikrama. So I was at that time new man*-not exactly new man, but not recognized disciple. I did not go. So he saw that I am sitting, I did not go to parikrama. He very much appreciated. I preferred to hear him than go to parikrama. That he appreciated. Hari-śauri: That was the same time that you took initiation? Prabhupāda: Yes. After that, I took initiation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where was the initiation ceremony? Prabhupāda: That Allahabad. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Allahabad. Prabhupāda: 1933. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So from Mathurā everyone went to Allahabad? Prabhupāda: Yes, or they went to somewhere. But I came back. From Allahabad I went to Mathurā, and I came back to Allahabad at my own place. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Initiation was held at that Gauḍīya Maṭha in Allahabad? Prabhupāda: Hah. At that time that Gauḍīya Maṭha also not there. That is at a rented house. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you help to build that one? Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you help to establish that Gauḍīya Maṭha? Prabhupāda: No, majority was paid by one of my Godbrothers, that three thousand, purchasing land. Then gradually developed. We used to pay something. [break] ...before to here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. He has come many times, Tarun Babu. Prabhupāda: He came many times? (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 11, 1976, Mäyäpura Hṛdayānanda: There are more, probably at least a hundred thousand, and at least, maybe 300,000 their home was destroyed. Small country. Prabhupāda: Hm. Hṛdayānanda: In my zone there are many countries that are always being hit by earthquakes, tidal waves, floods, repeatedly. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is to be done? Hṛdayānanda: We'll go afterwards and preach there. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: We will go afterwards and preach there. There is another country right next to it... Prabhupāda: Tell them that if you take to Hare Kṛṣṇa, then these things will not happen. Tell them. Hṛdayānanda: Yes. In Caracas, where you visited, less then ten years ago there was a big earthquake and many big skyscrapers fell into the earth, completely disappeared. Prabhupāda: Oh? Hṛdayānanda: The whole skyscraper just fell into the earth. That was in Caracas. They said that after that people became more pious. During the earthquake they were screaming to God, "Have mercy, have mercy." Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: Another country, Nicaragua, just a few years ago there was a big earthquake, and the capital city was entirely destroyed. It was all gone, the entire capital. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have experience of an earthquake, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was in one in Mexico. It was at night. When the earthquake happened I was completely thrown right out of my bed. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thrown right out of the bed by the earthquake. It shook the building so much, the whole building shook, and I was thrown right out of the bed. Fortunately that building I was in, it only sagged, but other buildings completely collapsed. The building was left slanting, though. We had to all evacuate the building. Hṛdayānanda: So it reminds us of the Kṛṣṇa book, because in Caracas, when there was an earthquake, the whole sky became dark, and there were great roaring sounds in the sky. Prabhupāda: Where? Hṛdayānanda: In Caracas. Great roaring sounds and the sky became dark, no one could see, and then everything began to... Prabhupāda: When it was? Hṛdayānanda: Less than ten years ago. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hṛdayānanda: Eight years ago, perhaps. My zone is very well known for that. Many times they have these disasters, and thousands of people are killed. Prabhupāda: So you can stop these things by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hṛdayānanda: When the capital was destroyed, the president of the country... He is named Samosa. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hṛdayānanda: This country's president's name is Mr. Samosa. Prabhupāda: Samosa? Hṛdayānanda: Samosa. Prabhupāda: What is that samosā? Our samosā? Hṛdayānanda: No. [break] ...two British planes came with medicine and they wouldn't let the planes land because they have some diplomatic quarrel with England. So they preferred their own people die to save the diplomatic purpose. Also another country sent supplies to help, and they said that it was stolen. They don't know where it went. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hṛdayānanda: Another plane from another country came, and when they delivered all their supplies they said that everything was stolen. They don't know where it went. Prabhupāda: Stolen? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. The medicine was all stolen. Also the government was making many people work hard due to the disaster, and when the people... Prabhupāda: So they are suffering from disaster. Again work hard. Just see how benefit. Hṛdayānanda: Yes. And when the people said to the government, "You should pay us," they said, "No, we cannot pay you, and if you don't work, we will cut off your food." *Prabhupāda: This is Kali*-yuga. Durbhikṣa-kārāpīḍita. One side, government disturbance, one side, no food, and they let them live very happily. That's all. This is their conception of happiness. Tactation(?), taxation, and no food, and natural disturbance. Hṛdayānanda: [break] ...country in my zone. Many times big tidal waves come and many, many towns are simply carried away into the ocean and destroyed. Thousands of people... Every so many years gigantic waves come, and thousands of people are killed and many towns are destroyed. [break] Prabhupāda: Observe. You have got any pañjikā? Jayapatākā: Yes. Just now bringing. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is mention what to do. *Jayapatākā: [break] Bhaumī ekādaśī or Varāhadevir, āvirbhāva*-janita upavāsa. Prabhupāda: Today. Today. Jayapatākā: Budhabāra, yes. Prabhupāda: Both together, upavāsa. Jayapatākā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then next day? *Jayapatākā: The next day it says, dina ata pañcāś gote dostha madhye se varāhadevir arcanam te bhaumī ekādaśīr o varāha*-dvādaśīr param.(?) *Prabhupāda: So today, ekādaśī as usual, the Varāha*-dvādaśī will be also observed and tomorrow breakfast. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Breakfast. Fast? No. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fasting tomorrow or... Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Regular... *Prabhupāda: Simply worshiping Varāhadeva. Keśava dhṛta-śūkara*-rūpa, jaya jagadīśa hare. That take. Jayapatākā: Between 8:50 and 10:00 we should break the fast. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that called parāyaṇa? Prabhupāda: Eh? Parāyaṇa. *Hṛdayānanda: There's a very famous lecture you gave, Śrīla Prabhupāda, one day on a Varāha*-dvādaśī, where you sang Jaya Jagadīśa and then you explained it. A very wonderful lecture. Jayapatākā: And the day after is Nityānanda's āvirbhāva. *Prabhupāda: Oh, then half*-day fasting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. Hṛdayānanda: Auspicious alignment. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...on your appearance day and Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī's and Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Gaura Kiśora's we should observe half*-day fast. I have a question that on all the other auspicious days, just like Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura and others, should we also observe half-day fast? Prabhupāda: It is... But if you cannot, that is another... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes because of the saṅkīrtana... Prabhupāda: No, no. If you cannot, you can take. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And just sing some songs and praise. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Kīrtana is main thing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And if possible, then the fasting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I see. [break] ...is up till sun... Prabhupāda: Up till sunset. Lord Rāmacandra. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Also. And Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī? Prabhupāda: Half. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Half day. [break] Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of fast is that? Prabhupāda: Balarāma? Half day. It is fifteen days before Janmāṣṭamī. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should always chant twenty*-five rounds on ekādaśī if initiated. Prabhupāda: Initiated? Everyone. Why initiated? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that should be standard for our movement on ekādaśī day? Prabhupāda: Standard is sixteen, but if one can chant more, then he is welcome. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not mandatory for ekādaśī. Jayapatākā: Recommended. Prabhupāda: No. Ekādaśī means that, fasting and chanting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes I'm wondering, because our men have to go out on book distribution. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is also preaching work. For that purpose you can stop this, but generally, one who has no preaching work, he can chant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Extra. Prabhupāda: Extra. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I see. (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 12, 1976, Mäyäpura *Prabhupāda: ...I am your friend, I am God, so you sleep, I shall do everything. In Russia like that. When Arjuna refused to fight He chastised him like anything. What is the anārya*-juṣṭam? He's just like non-Aryans, talking foolish. People should clearly understand that we don't encourage laziness. We never encourage. According to your capacity, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13], you must work. Śarīra yātrāpi te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ, Kṛṣṇa says, "By not working, even if you cannot put on your body and soul together." Kṛṣṇa says like that. Dayānanda: Isn't laziness one of the demonic qualities, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: It is less than demonic. Demonic qualities, they have some activity and laziness is ignorance, darkness. Therefore too much sleeping is very, very bad. That is another part of laziness. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau **, one has to conquer over this sleeping and laziness. Eating, nidrā, ahāra, vihāra, sense gratification, vihāra means sense gratification. One has to minimize these things up to the point of nil, that is perfect. When there is no more sleeping, no more eating, no more mating, and no more fearing, that is perfection of spiritual life. And that is not possible, but as much as possible. [break] ...they cannot sleep more that the culture (?) is very great gain, profit. Hṛdayānanda: Consider a rich man. A rich man can sleep, a poor man must work. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hṛdayānanda: They're always making agitation to reduce what they call the work week. Formerly they were working so many hours per week, now they want to reduce it down to forty, thirty, twenty hours per week. Prabhupāda: So why they're inventing machine? Machine means no work. Hṛdayānanda: They think this is progress, everyone can lie down and the machines will work. Prabhupāda: Yes, machine, inventing machine means one machine can work for fifty men. The banks are using this, what is that, computer? Hṛdayānanda: Yes, everyone is using computers. Prabhupāda: To save money. Machine means unemployment for many. Tractor, they're using, they're unemployment for bulls and plowmen and then they, bulls have to be killed. This is going on. Unemployment, then kill them. Vietnam, send all the men to fight and kill them. As soon as there is overpopulation, they declare war so that people may be killed. Hṛdayānanda: Sometimes the soldiers became so disgusted that they would shoot their own officers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: But they would do it in such a way so it appeared to be accidents. Sometimes they would take little bomb and throw it into the tent of the officers and they would all be killed. Prabhupāda: What was the reason? Hṛdayānanda: Well, because the officers, they were not qualified. They were simply foolish. They were directing them in such a way that they were all in danger. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hṛdayānanda: And they could not understand why they were there. It was a foreign... They were used to America and so they had to go to the jungle but they were, they could not see the point of fighting... Prabhupāda: Mm. (indistinct) Hṛdayānanda: So many times they would become so disgusted they would simply kill their own officers, shoot them or throw a bomb. Also in Vietnam, the majority of the soldiers were fighting intoxicated, marijuana and different drugs. Dayānanda: Also I think people have no respect for authority any more. Prabhupāda: No. Dayānanda: There's... All over the world people are not respecting any kind of authorities. Prabhupāda: No. Dayānanda: There are so many false... Prabhupāda: Especially the students. That means chaotic condition. [break] ...type of civilization, this material world. Dayānanda: Tagore (?) is so nice that your divine grace was presenting the perfect authority, Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. And one who follows His instruction, he also perfect. That we are pushing (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa conscious, everything will be all right. Everyone is fallen, I asked this question to Kotofsky. "Sir, you have got a leader, we have got a leader, so where is the difference?" And then I said, "Only you have got a fool leader, we have got intelligent leader." Otherwise you cannot avoid leadership, authority. That is not possible. Dayānanda: They want to avoid but they... Impersonalists are catering to that desire, they want to avoid authority and so the impersonalists are encouraging that. So they are rascals, the... Prabhupāda: No, it is not possible to give up authority. That is not possible. Hṛdayānanda: Your interview, those articles that you had spoken about, against Communism, are very, very brilliant. Actually we were struck with wonder to see the different arguments. Very, very important for South America because there the Communism is popular among the young students. Prabhupāda: They read it? Hṛdayānanda: Yes, we just published it in our magazine. Prabhupāda: Oh. So they like that argument? Hṛdayānanda: Yes, the argument was so intelligent that no one has ever thought of such intelligent arguments against Communism. Also the article on Freud, I think that book is very, very important. It will actually satisfy the students. No one else would dare to call these people fools. (laughter) (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 18, 1976, Mäyäpura Acyutānanda: ...ācāryas and paṇḍitas of all the sampradāyas. *Yaśodānandana: One of the leading paṇḍitas of the Rāmānuja*-sampradāya has endorsed us as being bona fide Vaiṣṇavas, and also one of the main Aṣṭamaṭhas (?) in Uḍupi, the place of Madhvācārya, has given a letter to define that "The disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, His Divine Grace, is doing very good work for the sanātana dharma, and they are bona fide Vaiṣṇavas. So these letters are very good for our preaching work. Acyutānanda: Śrī Raṅgam. Yaśodānandana: Also in Śrī Raṅgam, the leading paṇḍita, the leading priest of the Śrī Raṅgam temple, that big Viṣṇu temple... We had a program there, and he's very much impressed by your work. Acyutānanda: He's the descendant of Veṅkata Bhaṭṭa. Prabhupāda: Oh. Acyutānanda: And that is... His house is called Mahāprabhu Śālā. So Lord Caitanya stayed in this house. Yaśodānandana: He also gave a very nice letter. *Prabhupāda: He's Gauḍīya*-sampradāya. Yaśodānandana: Rāmānuja. *Prabhupāda: No, this Veṅkata Bhaṭṭa, because Bhaṭṭa, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa was Caitanya Mahāprabhu's disciple. Śrī*-rūpa sanātana bhaṭṭa-raghunātha, śrī-jīva gopāla-bhaṭṭa dāsa-raghunātha. They were direct disciples of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Acyutānanda: There's a big sign on the Śrī Raṅgam temple: "Only Hindus allowed." Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Acyutānanda: So we took a photograph of ourselves standing next to him with the sign in the picture. So we can use that, in case anybody tries to check us. Prabhupāda: So one thing, if you can do, that India, at the present moment, that Swami Cinmayananda is prominent. Acyutānanda: Yes. Hari-śauri: He's very big. Especially in the South. Prabhupāda: (laughs) So if you can subdue him... Yaśodānandana: We'll take care of that, Prabhupāda. Acyutānanda: All right. Prabhupāda: That will be great triumph. He's a nonsense. That's... But he's very popular at the same time. Acyutānanda: Yes, because... Prabhupāda: He is like Vivekananda. Acyutānanda: He tells some jokes. Yaśodānandana: He always tells nonsense jokes during his lectures. Therefore children and elderly widows are very much attracted to him for his flowery language and joking. But he has no substantial philosophy like yours. Acyutānanda: We went to his program and sold books to the crowd. Prabhupāda: Ah. Yaśodānandana: But some way or other, he has some respect for you, Prabhupāda, for the great work you have done, Cinmayananda Swami. He has some respect for you. He knows... Prabhupāda: But he, he wants to keep his prestigious position. Acyutānanda: Oh, yes. Yaśodānandana: Yes. On your order, we shall try to hamper that. Prabhupāda: No, tactfully. Acyutānanda: By preaching your books. Prabhupāda: Keep him as friend. He's friendly. So don't irritate him. Acyutānanda: All right. *Yaśodānandana: I think the best way would be to out*-preach him. *Prabhupāda: Out*-preach him. Yes. [break] Acyutānanda: ...letter for our authorization to enter temples. Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: You, you sent him a letter for him to copy, and he did that on his letterhead and Vishwa Hindu Parishad. He is favorable. Prabhupāda: Yes, he's... Acyutānanda: I met him once. He is addicted to snuff very, very much. Prabhupāda: Constantly. Acyutānanda: Even during his lectures he makes gestures so that he can take snuff without anybody knowing. Yaśodānandana: And one of his favorite styles is that whenever he goes to a city, he always stays with elderly widows, very rich elderly widows, in their houses. Very strange. Acyutānanda: I think the people know that he is bogus, but they just go for some entertainment because he is so... (Prabhupāda laughs) Yes, they just go for some... Some people go just because they want to hear some nice English, to improve their English knowledge. Prabhupāda: He speaks good English? Acyutānanda: Very... He's an orator. Prabhupāda: He's M.A. in English. I know. He's... Acyutānanda: He used to be, I heard, a journalist. Prabhupāda: Yes, journalist. Acyutānanda: But he got into some big embarrassment. Prabhupāda: Journalists, they write very good English. Every journalist, they learn how to write good English. Acyutānanda: He got into some big embarrassment. I don't know how. Then he went to the Himalayas. Prabhupāda: He was in, several times in embarrassment. One friend in Delhi, Mr. Gupta, he told many things about him. He was patronizing him. In those days, when he was not very rich, he had, he gave him 25,000 rupees, that Mr. Gupta. [break] Ācchā? Acyutānanda: I felt uncomfortable. He was clicking his teeth and moving his hands and talking very quickly. It was very uncomfortable just to be in his presence. I was very nervous. He actually contradicted himself. I was saying we should be respected in all Hindu temples. He says, "Yes, you are Hindus." He says, "Jains and Buddhists, they are also Hindus." I said, "How is that?" He says, "Who is Buddha?" I said, "He is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa." He says, "No, aside from that, he is the son of a kṣatriya." I said, "Then you are bringing it back to birth again." And then he started groping for words and avoiding it. They want to make a unity of Hindus so that they can always sway elections, so that Mohammedan and Christians do not change the election. Prabhupāda: And we want to make Mohammedans Hindus. Acyutānanda: Yes. They also do that. They try and... Mainly they try and reconvert the Christians. They get some results. And they pander to the tribal castes so that they don't convert to Christianity. The Mohammedans and Christians have refused to use birth control, so they think that their population will soon outnumber the Hindus. So they are afraid that the Mohammedan and Christian block will sway elections in the future. [break] Jayapatākā: Brahmacārīs don't like to take the instructions from the elder devotees, and then they want to take sannyāsa, so they think they can be independent and give orders themself and not listen. Prabhupāda: Therefore not to be given all of a sudden. [break]...to become sevaka. Everyone wants to become sevya. Hṛdayānanda: Served. Prabhupāda: Yes. And, ultimately, God. Se pasha pasha pasha bo... (?) When everything failure, then to become God. Jayapatākā: That's why Lord Caitanya said that "I am not a sannyāsī or a..." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa... *Yaśodānandana: Nāhaṁ vipro na ca nara*-patir nāpi vaiśyo... *Prabhupāda: Bhṛtyasya*-bhṛtya, servant of the servant [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. Everyone, if he wants to become a master, that is materialism. (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 19, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: ...this flavor. Now who can challenge? Apart from other things... Acyutānanda: But you don't know the real cause scientifically, so you say it is a god. Prabhupāda: No, no, you, you are scientist, but you are a greater rascal. You cannot explain. Wherefrom this flavor has come? Acyutānanda: Well, we're working on that, and we'll find out. Prabhupāda: But working... But we have got the already conclusion. Why should we work like a fool? Acyutānanda: That's an excuse because you cannot explain to your children when they come. *Prabhupāda: No, no, we are explaining. Kṛṣṇa says, "This is I am." This is God. This is God. You are fool. You are searching after. But we know. Here is God. Puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am this flavor." So as soon as you have this flavor, you understand Kṛṣṇa is there. It is easier. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ. Acyutānanda: There was an arti... *Prabhupāda: Just like the sunshine is there. Here is Kṛṣṇa. So we have no difficulty. Prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ. Here is puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca. Acyutānanda: There was now a statement from the scientists, "Scientists are no longer positive why the sun shines." Like... They were positive, and they said, "We are positive." Now they are no longer positive why the sun shines. Prabhupāda: What is that, "positive"? Acyutānanda: They don't know... Before they were sure. Now they're not sure why the sun shines. They had concocted an idea, and they declared it as a law, a scientific law. Now they have..., again doubting their own law. *Guru*-kṛpā: Actually the flavor that's in the flower comes from the different secretion, and by different mixture, different flavors come out. Prabhupāda: Rascal, what is that mixture? *Guru*-kṛpā: By chance. Prabhupāda: By chance. (laughter) *Guru*-kṛpā: Different chance creates different flavors. Acyutānanda: They have scientists have analyzed. All smells come in seven or eight basic smells: burnt, sweet, bitter... So they said, "A rose is seven sweet, two burnt and one bitter." So they take the chemicals, and it doesn't smell like a rose. They put the seven sweet and the one burnt, and... And it doesn't smell rose. But just the statement that they are no longer chemicals... *Guru*-kṛpā: But we can artificially create with our chemicals the smell of the rose. Sudāmā: Just like now they have created flowers, plastic flowers that give scent. *Guru*-kṛpā: Yeah, sure. Acyutānanda: But they have taken material from the already created, and here's without factory it's made. Prabhupāda: If you ask for an artist to... Acyutānanda: But there's no seed in the plastic flower, no seeds to create more. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. *Acyutānanda: The scient... There was a scientific law called Heisenberg's Law of Uncertainty that-'cause this Heisenberg just died, so they wrote his philosophy*-that you cannot observe anything and give a conclusive answer to anything that was uncertain. No one can make a decisive statement... Prabhupāda: So why you are giving this conclusive answer? Why he is giving? Acyutānanda: No. Prabhupāda: This is conclu... Acyutānanda: All he's saying is like what Socrates..., "I only know that I don't know." Hari-śauri: In other words, he's in ignorance. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: In other words, he's admitting that he has limited senses. Prabhupāda: So "I don't know" means that you are rascal. So you know. So why you are preaching? You know that you are a rascal. Then why you are preaching? You are teaching. Acyutānanda: They, they showed his picture in the... Prabhupāda: That's all right. He said, "I know. I know that I don't know." So if you don't know, that means you are a rascal. So, knowingly that you are a rascal, why you are taking the position of a teacher? That is cheating. You are rascal, cheater. That's all. Acyutānanda: And his picture is, was with a beer. Hṛdayānanda: He wanted to teach everyone... Acyutānanda: Einstein was also a drunkard. Hṛdayānanda: He would say, "I have taken this position, teacher, because I want everyone to say, 'I don't know.' " Acyutānanda: So just say, "I don't know." Hari-śauri: If you don't know, why say anything? Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to deal with these rascals. The other day one professor came to see me from Khabudvīpa(?). He was very submissive, but still, he would argue like this, that "Whatever Kṛṣṇa is making me to do, I am doing." So I told him, "Kṛṣṇa is asking you to surrender. Why don't you surrender?" "No, when He will will, I shall surrender." Acyutānanda: "He should make me..." Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. Acyutānanda: There's a story I tell. Prabhupāda: Just see. Acyutānanda: So there was a man. "Oh, when he wills me to surrender, I'll surrender, and..." Prabhupāda: But He is directly saying, "You surrender." Still, He has to will? Just see the argument. *Guru*-kṛpā: He already willed five thousand years ago. Hṛdayānanda: Cheating. Acyutānanda: No, there was a story like that, that a cow ate a man's grasses. So the man beat the cow and the cow died. So Yamarāja came. And he was saying, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa willed me, and I killed the cow. It is all Kṛṣṇa's kārya. I did not kill him." So Yamarāja said, "Well, who, who planted this rice?" He says, "I did." "And who purchased this land?" He says, "I did." "And who purchased, who raised that land?" "I did." "Who did that?" "I did. I did. I did." "Now, who killed the cow?" (Prabhupāda laughs) So they want to take credit... Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: ...when they do something for their sense gratification, but to sacrifice-"Oh, Kṛṣṇa has to tell me. Kṛṣṇa wills it." Then they don't... They say, "Why did Kṛṣṇa create evil?" Then there is a very peculiar question that comes sometimes: "If Kṛṣṇa knows that we were going to fall down, why didn't He save us?" or something like that. Prabhupāda: He's saving you. Sudāmā: In the West, that is a very popular question. Prabhupāda: He's saving. Sudāmā: Why didn't... Prabhupāda: He's asking that "You... I'll save you. You surrender to Me." Acyutānanda: But that means He knows everything in advance. Prabhupāda: He knows. He knows that you are a rascal, you'll fall. Therefore He says that "Do this. You'll not fall." Acyutānanda: And they don't seem to take that answer, and they're very... *Sudāmā: No, they become very embittered: "Why He permits us...? If He is all*-loving God, why He permits us to suffer? Prabhupāda: No, He's not permit... He forbids, but you... Acyutānanda: You insist. Prabhupāda: ...that you have to understand, that you have got little independence. That... Actually they do not understand that. Sudāmā: No. They're not satisfied. Acyutānanda: They don't... Sudāmā: Then they say, "Why He give us independence, then?" Prabhupāda: Then... That is the distinction between you and the stone. Otherwise you would have remained as stone. Because you are moving, therefore He has given you the independence. *Guru*-kṛpā: There is also a question in that same line. They say that in the spiritual world we say that everything is peaceful, there is no birth and death, there is no material conditions, so if the conditions in the spiritual world are so nice and everything is spiritually, everything is spiritual, how is it that one can become envious of Kṛṣṇa in such conditions? This is a very... Acyutānanda: The original sin. Sudāmā: Why we are envious, *Guru*-kṛpā: How is it that, if everything is free from envy, free from bad material elements... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: How is it that... Prabhupāda: That is independence. That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violate. Sudāmā: It is very hard thing to understand. Prabhupāda: No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult. Acyutānanda: It is not difficult. They don't want to understand. Prabhupāda: Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel. Acyutānanda: No, their idea is that they want to blame God for their predicament, like a bad child, you know, says, "Well you made me do it." Prabhupāda: Yes. Sudāmā: "What can I do?" Prabhupāda: No, they say, "Why you gave me birth?" They say like that. Sudāmā: Cursing almost. Almost. *Guru*-kṛpā: Also the atheistic people sometimes argue, "What does your Kṛṣṇa do for the suffering people?" Prabhupāda: Hm? *Guru*-kṛpā: "What does He do? Why doesn't He come down and help the poor people? They are suffering." Acyutānanda: I tell them there's... *Guru*-kṛpā: "Why doesn't He come and help them?" Acyutānanda: In Andhra, I said, "There's so much land where they're growing tobacco. You could grow food." But in the *Gītā*, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns." Prabhupāda: But if he likes, he can return. Acyutānanda: He can return. *Prabhupāda: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Kṛṣṇa*-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown. Acyutānanda: In Kṛṣṇa book it says that there were some color fighting in Dvārakā. They were throwing color. And some men became lusty seeing the women. So is... Will that be the first part of their falldown, to be in Vaikuṇṭha and think of personal lust with Kṛṣṇa's associates? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Whatever He likes, He'll do. That is God. God is not meant for satisfying you. Acyutānanda: That man was dragged down by the people in the audience anyway. *Guru*-kṛpā: They took him out of... Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: He was dragged down by the people in the audience. He was an agitator. [break] Prabhupāda: This preaching work is a great fight, struggle. Acyutānanda: It is very struggle. Prabhupāda: So you are all soldiers. Even if you lay down your life by fighting, you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa will see that "This devotee has laid down his life," so He'll... He's... Asaṁśayam. Asaṁśayam. Mām evaiśyasy asaṁśayam. So let us go on fighting. Even we die, what is that? We are going back to... Jīvo vā māro vā. A Vaiṣṇava, a sādhu, either he lives or dies, he is under the protection of Kṛṣṇa. Jīvo vā māro vā. [break] So if he dies in the battlefield, he goes to heaven. Acyutānanda: [break] Now, in the past year, though, Communism has come under many attacks in the magazines and newspapers. Prabhupāda: Hm? Acyutānanda: Communism has been openly attacked as failure. Prabhupāda: Communism? Acyutānanda: Yes, many places. Prabhupāda: It is a failure. *Guru*-kṛpā: There was a recent issue of Newsweek. Acyutānanda: I... I think, only in the world, that is the real country where people are really starving, in Russia. Prabhupāda: Russia, yes. Acyutānanda: Now they're having drought, and trying to get wheat from a freezing cold land. And they have their favorite class, also. The Party members are only a fraction of the population, and they get all the benefits. Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: So they have their caste system also. It was created out of envy... Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: ...for the... That's all. Prabhupāda: I think I have discussed this. Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Marx's failure. Acyutānanda: ...they cannot take the greed out of man. That was right on the head. That is the exact point, that they are suffering for the greed of the vaiśyas. So they kick out the vaiśyas, but then they are also more greedy. Prabhupāda: They are greedy. Acyutānanda: Plus they are low class. *Guru*-kṛpā: Plus the worst thing is that they do not accept any form of religion whatsoever. Acyutānanda: The, the Russian atheist Communism was because the Christian Church used to favor the vaiśyas, so they buried them together. In their hatred for the vaiśyas, the Church also was buried. Very blind, that. Hari-śauri: Yes, that's always been one of the main criticisms against the Catholic Church. They have so much money and land. Acyutānanda: He said, "Religion is the opiate of the people." So there was a cartoon that Marx came back in 1976, and they said, "No, opium is the religion of the people." Prabhupāda: Hm? Acyutānanda: "Now opium is the religion of the people because everyone is taking drugs. You say religion is the opiate. Now opium is the religion." They think there should be no private property. There was... They are discussing this in Indian Parliament now. They should abolish private property and abol... Women should not wear ornaments. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Acyutānanda: They're discussing in Parliament. Prabhupāda: In our? Acyutānanda: In India, Congress. Ornaments should be banned and private property banned. *Guru*-kṛpā: They have already banned with their land-ceiling... Acyutānanda: They're doing it by taxing... *Guru*-kṛpā: With their land-ceiling, they are banning all the..., more than twenty acres. *Acyutānanda: They have a law. If you have the high, dry land, you can have fifty acres per person. And if you have wet land, rice growing, irrigated, you can only have twenty*-five acres. So I said, "Suppose you have dry land, and then you irrigate..." Prabhupāda: The difficulty is that they have no standard idea, their. So they can do anything. And because they are in power, they can pass law whimsically, whatever he likes. [break] ...that bābu candra mantrī. (?) You know this? Acyutānanda: "Many kings and many..." Prabhupāda: No, no. Bābu candra rāya. It is a sarcastic word, bābu, bābu candra. Mean a foolish... Acyutānanda: Foolish king. Prabhupāda: And bābu candra mantrī. Another foolish mantrī. One, one foolish, king; another foolish is ministers. So that is going on. All the rascals, they are getting vote. One is becoming president, another is becoming the prime minister. But both of them are rascals. Acyutānanda: The, the law they are passing now is that the president and prime minister under no case can be brought in court. Prabhupāda: That is all right. That is good. Acyutānanda: They can do anything. *Yaśodānandana: I think that some of the comments of Your Divine Grace, some of the purports of the Fourth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, if they come to the notice of the Indian government, it may give us some... They may seriously consider about banning, because in that one purport you openly criticize how unfortunate the citizens are because they have a woman as the prime minister, and in another purport you openly say that the citizens should keep their, some of their treasury secret, which is against the principle of their income tax. Prabhupāda: So, I have... There is no support in the śāstra? *Guru*-kṛpā: There is support, but according to their idea and their so-called... Prabhupāda: Then they confront Bhāgavata. *Bhāgavatam*... Children: "Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Acyutānanda: ...neighborhood, Cāṇakya... Prabhupāda: Yes. So Cāṇakya is authority. So I am quoting Cāṇakya. What is my fault? Acyutānanda: No, they cannot... They cannot... *Prabhupāda: Cāṇakya is authority. Otherwise, why you have named "Cāṇakya Purī"? He's as good as Gandhi and other big, big men. So it is said, viśvāso naiva kartavyaṁ strīṣu rāja*-kuleṣu ca.(?)I am innocent. I am quoting authority. Acyutānanda: Yes. Yes, you can say that is the statement of Cāṇakya. One foolish man... I was saying, "Some...," in my lectures, "some foolish scholar has written that because Kṛṣṇa is black, He is a scheduled caste." So there was a scheduled caste man in the audience who became educated. So he took offense. "Well, maybe Kṛṣṇa was the leader of the scheduled caste." So I said then, "that is the statement of some scholar. You cannot criticize me. I am quoting a scholar." The audience shouted him down too. [break] Śūdras and yavanas may become brāhmaṇas, but many of them don't. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Acyutānanda: So many born śūdras are śūdras, many times. Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: But artificially the government process is to give benefits and prestige to the harijanas without being qual... Prabhupāda: Without training. Acyutānanda: Training. Prabhupāda: Without making him harijana... Acyutānanda: A harijana may become a brāhmaṇa, but sometimes a harijana is a scheduled caste. Prabhupāda: Harijana means methara. As soon as he comes, if he says, "I am harijana" then immediately you understand that he is a sweeper. Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is the position. Acyutānanda: And now, in many cases, they forcibly occupy some land, and they create disturbance, and the local people set fire and drive them out. We call a barber... Prabhupāda: Mūḍha. Anyone who's not a Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's a mūḍha, bās. Narādhama, bās. *Acyutānanda: We call a barber, and he shaves one, and we said, "Now sharpen again," and he does not bring his stone. "Go back and bring your stone." But even in the free society, American society, they have union. And that is caste. To protect the employment, one union man cannot do the work of another union or he'll put another man out of work. So they stay in their place. So that is sva*-dharma and para-dharma. So the same principle is natural, svābhāvika, again appears naturally. Hmm? Just like we... In my house we purchased a piano. One union is hired to bring the piano from the shop to the lorry, another set of workers will lift the piano and put it into the lorry, and another union will take the, from the lorry into your house. So you have to hire about nine different men, because they'll say, "No, now our work is finished up to this point." Prabhupāda: In America? Acyutānanda: Yes. And the other union is the truck driver. And no man will do the other work. Like in India, if you hire a woman to wash the pots, if you tell her to wash the pāyakhānā, she will not go. Another woman you have to get. And that protects them. That protects their employment opportunity. Prabhupāda: Division of labor. Acyutānanda: Division of labor. Prabhupāda: [break]... gradually no simple life. Struggle for existence, very, very... Acyutānanda: People confuse change for progress. When it is just changed and done in a more complicated way, they think it is called progress. That is also the Communist thing when there is protest: "Oh, well, you have to accept change. It's natural. It's a natural change." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is communal thought. Acyutānanda: "Times are changing. You have to move. You have to change with the time." Dayānanda: Mao says, "Revolution, constant revolution." Acyutānanda: Yes. I asked one man. I said, "What do you have to show? What is the results? What is the results of the change? The people are still living in a hut." He says, "The struggle is what we have to show, that we had a struggle. People are not just sitting by and being exploited, but they are now struggling." Prabhupāda: No, that is already found... Acyutānanda: Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. *Prabhupāda: ...in the Bhagavad*-gītā: manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7]. This is the nature's law. What you have got to say about this thing? Nothing. It is already there. Prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati: "Although they are my part and parcel," mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7], still, "because they have been predominated by the mind, manaḥ, and the senses, they are struggling." So our propaganda is "Stop this sense gratification and mental concoction. Then the struggle will cease. And if you still abide by the senses and mental dictation, then you'll have to suffer." Acyutānanda: [break] ...a bullock can pull it out. Bullocks can pull it out. And fifty years ago, they would have the bullocks... Prabhupāda: [break] ...if does not become Kṛṣṇa conscious, he remains a fool and go on, all things foolish. I will suggest something; you'll suggest something; *he'll suggest something. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. This is not... Acyutānanda: Travel by the speed of mind. Prabhupāda: Mental concoction... They'll never be able to come the right conclusion. Simply they'll create disturbances. That's all. Utpāṭyaiva kalpate.(?)Just see. He is working so hard, getting money. Still he cannot provide a nice dāya. Acyutānanda: He'll gamble his money. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Acyutānanda: They will gamble. Prabhupāda: For gambling, they have got money, eh? (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 20, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: Ahaituky apratihatā. Acyutānanda: Jāy sakal bipod. Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: Jāy sakal bipod. Prabhupāda: Ah. Acyutānanda: Bhaktivinoda... Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... [break] ...times it is speedy, sometimes slow. Therefore day and night, there's time difference. It is moving. It is not fixed. *Acyutānanda: Bhagavad*-gītā's Battle of Kurukṣetra fought, in which month? Prabhupāda: That I do not know. Why? Acyutānanda: Because they have a *Gītā* day, I think, in November, where they claim that they have found the day... September? Yaśodānandana: December, beginning of December. Acyutānanda: So that and the eighteen days' war, and then the Uttarāyaṇa begins in the middle of January. So I was thinking that Bhīṣma was lying on the battlefield for almost a month or more. Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: That Bhīṣma was waiting, lying on the battlefield for about thirty or forty days. [break] Prabhupāda: ...was to die when he liked. That was his special privilege. Acyutānanda: What? *Prabhupāda: He would die when he liked. That was the benediction upon him. And Gandhi will say dharma*-kṣetra means this body. Indian man: Balarāma and Subhadrā month, is that on the same, the next month, He came? *Prabhupāda: He came one sūrya*-grahaṇa occasion. [break] ...in America. That is better than calling a government. What is the government? I don't care for them, these politicians. In America I never attempted to see the politicians, secretary and... Never attempted. I was sitting down under the tree and playing my dundubhi. Dayānanda: Yes. For one year the Marquis of Zetland was interested, and then what is the use? After that, then finished. Prabhupāda: Finished. Dayānanda: Just five hundred pounds spent in two years, and then nothing. Prabhupāda: Then nothing. *Dayānanda: In 1933-34. But you have, you have done so much. Even, even though you just had some low*-class persons, you have transformed them all. And now it is a very wonderful... Prabhupāda: The Ramakrishna Mission man came to see me. He said that "You dress like American. Otherwise, nobody will take you as important." Acyutānanda: Nikhilananda... Prabhupāda: "And I don't want to be important. I have no dress. If you pay for it, I can dress. I have no money. I know how to dress as a European. As business man, I was doing that. But not this shabby dress. You must give me four set of nice dress, (laughter) changing every alternate day. I know how to do it, but have no money." (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 21, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: ...mind, don't express. Don't disclose. And besides that, we should not think anyone as our enemy. They are misled. Let us do our own duty. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... Who has broken this? [Break] ...disease. Just like a man is diseased, and a surgeon is operating. He's calling by ill names, "You rascal, you śālā, you barja(?), you are killing me." So that does not mean he'll stop his business. And when he's relieved: "Oh, you are my friend. You have done so good. You are not my śālā." Just see. Acyutānanda: Why do they say "śālā"? Prabhupāda: Śālā is a abominable term. Śālā means wife's brother. Acyutānanda: Why is that abominable? *Prabhupāda: The country, you see? But advanced devotee, they'll not think anyone as enemy. You see? Diseased man... piśācī pāile yena mati*-cchanna haya, māyā-grasta jīvera haya se bhāva udaya. Just like one is ghostly haunted. He talks all nonsense. [break] ...proposal, there cannot be any two opinions. Let them join, anyone. Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Come on. Money problem, we shall solve. You come and join. Preach. Where is the objection? Acyutānanda: In America that is called "entrepreneur." Prabhupāda: What is that? Acyutānanda: If you back and forward another man to... Usually it's in entertainment, to be a famous actor or a singer, then a man will be behind, supplying money and publicity and everything. Prabhupāda: [break] ...well, let them translate all our English literature. We shall publish in Bengali. Acyutānanda: I don't think they have that. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Acyutānanda: They're not educated. Jayapatākā: Parvat. Acyutānanda: Who is that? Jayapatākā: The one that calls me "prabhu." Acyutānanda: Parvat. Parvat, yes. Prabhupāda: He has not such quandary. [break] ...he'll come with us, work with us. Acyutānanda: And if they think their maṭha will deteriorate, then Prabhupāda has offered... Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: ...to maintain the temples. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let their men work. Whatever expenditure is required, we shall give. There is no disturbance. Money is power. That we have got. Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: By the grace of... Acyutānanda: Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja mentioned that before you went to America, Indians were not interested. And now you have come back with money, so they are willing to hear. *Prabhupāda: Money is the strength all over, all over the world. America is prestigious*-why? They have got money. So we, I have got American disciples. Why shall I not have money? If America, a guru of the Americans remains poor, it is contradictory. Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: It cannot be. Acyutānanda: [break] ... Kṛṣṇa books, *Gītā*, *Nectar of Devotion*, *Īśopaniṣad*, *Bhāgavatam* volumes. Yaśodānandana: This *Nectar of Devotion* is a big seller. Acyutānanda: And the science..., Dāmodara Svarūpa's, everyone taking. Yaśodānandana: Also the *Īśopaniṣad*. Prabhupāda: What do they say about, after reading? Acyutānanda: We... Well, we presented that "If anyone doesn't believe in God, you must show this book." Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: "Or if you cannot convince another, you must have this book to convince any atheist of the science, of the proof of God," everybody goes to that. And *Īśopaniṣad*, we say, "If you do not understand if God is a person or not person, read *Īśopaniṣad*." Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. Acyutānanda: And then they pick it up. We tease them. And *Nectar of Devotion* also. Prabhupāda: Science of... Acyutānanda: Of how to train the mind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: And... Devotee (1): Āgamas. Acyutānanda: Yes, and... Prabhupāda: Practice devotion. Yaśodānandana: Because it is a thick book which is also not so expensive, people like it very much. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśodānandana: Also with color illustrations. Prabhupāda: Now you can give still cheaper, when you print here. Acyutānanda: Yes, that is what we were wondering. Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: If we have... Prabhupāda: What price you are selling? Yaśodānandana: Twelve rupees. Acyutānanda: Twelve rupees. Prabhupāda: Twelve rupees. So you can sell, ten rupees, eight rupees. Acyutānanda: Now the one, when... Prabhupāda: Still, you keep profit, two, three rupees. Yaśodānandana: Oh, yes, always. We always make sure of that. Acyutānanda: When the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*, small size, came, something happened, but it cost us from the BBT... How much does the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* cost us? Yaśodānandana: That's very expensive. Acyutānanda: It's very expensive. *Yaśodānandana: That's about twenty*-two rupees that we have to pay, and we cannot resell it for twenty-eight rupees. Prabhupāda: No, no, no... *Acyutānanda: Twenty*-two rupees, we shall pay. Prabhupāda: We shall print. It will cost not more than ten to twelve rupees. Acyutānanda: Must be. Then we'll... Many people will take that. It is also... It is about ninety pages' index, which has increased the volume of the book. Yaśodānandana: Ninety? Acyutānanda: Ninety. Yaśodānandana: In India they don't care for index. Prabhupāda: No, index is liked by scholarly people. Yaśodānandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: It will be liked by scholarly men. (end) *Morning Walk Excerpt-*-February 22, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: ...by prakṛti how intelligently. Acyutānanda: Even if they can make chemical colors, it's not as nice as the flowers. *Prabhupāda: That... Apart from that, everything... sarva*-kāma-dugdha-mahī. From the earth, everything is there. This green color is there, this red color is there, the pink color is there, this white color is there, but you cannot separate. Where is your chemistry? Take the color, the flavor, from the earth. (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 25, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: ...intelligence. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is decision, that from this Western world, they haven't got to take anything. If they have got to take anything, it is from India. That they have decided. And that's a fact. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Once they buy, then the other Eastern European countries will also buy, may buy. Prabhupāda: No, other countries, they are purchasing. Indian man (1): Other... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: East European countries like Poland, and these are all in the Communist block. Prabhupāda: Anyway, if Moscow buys, purchases, that is... Jayapatākā: : If we translate into Russian then they'll probably take. Prabhupāda: Yes, we shall consult. First of all, let them take. Then we shall propose them. *Jagadīśa: Actually, Bhagavad*-gītā has already been translated into Russian. I have seen one copy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have translated a lot of books like *Rāmāyaṇa* also in Russian. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think they are bona fide translations, not by a devotee. Indian devotee: We have got a Polish devotee in London, a woman, and she's trying to translate. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Harikeśa is trying to go to Hungary. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Harikeśa Swami. Prabhupāda: That is also Communist? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The Russian block. It's in Eastern Europe. (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 26, 1976, Mäyäpura *Prabhupāda: ...no more desire of material enjoyment he is fit for sannyāsa. Anyone who sees: "Oh, this car is very nice. This beautiful wife is very... A very beautiful woman is very nice," he should not think of taking sannyāsa. Viṣa*-bhakṣaṇād apy asādhu: "Such desires is most abominable, more than taking poison." To commit suicide by taking poison is most abominable thing, because he's going to be a ghost. He'll be punished to become a ghost, those who commit suicide. Or, if one is suddenly killed and he has so many desires, he becomes ghost. Therefore viṣa-bhakṣaṇa, taking poison, and die untimely, is most abominable, or commit suicide. By the material law also, to attempt to commit suicide is criminal. You know that? Devotees: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is criminal. (Bengali) If you take s annyāsa... Just like there are so many sannyāsīs, for filling up the belly. Wherever you go they give some alms. But in..., outside India, who cares for the sannyāsī? Then why you should be eager to take sannyāsa and cheat yourself? You cannot cheat others, but you can cheat yourself. Hṛdayānanda: Outside India a sannyāsī will starve. Prabhupāda: (laughs) So I do not know why our disciples are so anxious to take sannyāsa, at least those who are outside. Everyone comes: "Give me sannyāsa." What is the idea? Jayapatākā: Freedom from authority. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Who cares him, for authority. Jayapatākā: No, they, they don't want to take order as brahmacārī. If they're sannyāsī they think they can do as they feel. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They all want to become leaders. Prabhupāda: So what kind of leader? If you cannot lead others, what kind of leader? Jayapatākā: That's why a brahmacārī should... Prabhupāda: If you mislead them, if you mislead them, then what is the use of taking leadership? Jayapatākā: That's why that system where a brahmacārī is recommended for one year and then he proves himself by doing some extraordinary preaching work is a very good system. Otherwise, anyone just comes and by pressurizing and begging and pleading, then they try to take sannyāsa. Then they don't stay to the path. *Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa means ultimate success, because this human life is meant for becoming disgusted with this material life: "No more." Material life means to take a body and enjoy this material āhāra*-nidrā, sleeping twenty-four hours, eating like elephant, and sex life like a monkey, these animals. This is material life, eating, sleeping, mating, and always afraid of. This is material life. And human life means to take freedom from these four things: no more afraid, no more sex, no more hankering after eating or sleeping. That is success. Everyone... You'll see in the sparrow in the morning. They're enjoying sex. So this is material life: eating, sleeping, mating and fearing. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca. And spiritual life means to become free from all this nonsense. That is spiritual life. They do not know what is spiritual life. The whole world, they do not know what is spiritual life. This is spiritual life, to become free from these four abominable things. Hṛdayānanda: They are trying to increase these four things. *Prabhupāda: That means cheating themselves. What is the use of taking sannyāsa and cheat yourself? Material life means punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], repeatedly doing the same thing. Either as human being or as monkey or as a small ant or the demigods, but doing the business is the same, four things: eating, sleeping, mating and fearing. In different scale, doing the same business. Therefore it is called punaḥ punaḥ, "again and again," carvita-carvaṇānām, "chewing the chewed." If one is sober, he thinks that "These four business, I have done many, many lives, as sparrow, or as jackal, or as demigod, and I have got this human form. Again I am doing this? So what is benefit of this human form of life?" This is sense. "I got this valuable life, and I am still doing the same thing as dogs and cats and sparrows? Then what is the difference between me and the dogs?" That is sense. "What is my better engagement?" That better engagement is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then his life is successful. Otherwise what is the use of...? Again become a sparrow. Again wait for millions of years to come by evolutionary process to the human form of life. You see? This is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. Because they cannot control the sense, they are going in the darkest part of this material existence. Dayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it seems that in youth the desire to enjoy is so much stronger than in old age. Prabhupāda: Hm? Dayānanda: It seems that in youth it is, the desire to enjoy is stronger than in old age. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. An old man is still stronger, but instruments are finished. He cannot enjoy. But the desire is there. You don't think that old man has got less desire than the young man. He has got the desire, but his instrument is finished. Hṛdayānanda: So much frustration. Prabhupāda: Not. He cannot use the instruments for enjoyment. Hṛdayānanda: So he's frustrated. *Prabhupāda: Frustrated? Everyone. Whether young or not, everyone is frustrated. He says that the desire in old man... It is expected because he has gone through the gṛhastha life. Gṛhastha life is a concession for sex life. That's all. It is not needed. But those who are unable to avoid it-"All right, have for some time. Then become sannyāsī." This is the process. It is not needed. So in old age, after going through these stages, brahmacārī is learning how to stop this sex life, and then, if one is still unable-"All right, take concession for twenty*-five years. Then give up this habit. Then take sannyāsa." So that is the process, one who has gone through the stages, expected that he has no more... āra nārī bapa (?) "I have done..." But generally, those who are not trained up, their desire is not diminished. They have got the... That you see in your country, Western country. Seventy-five, eighty years old, they are going to the nightclub. Hṛdayānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Paying hundreds and thousands of dollars. Where is the...? He has lost all capacity, but still, he'll go. Still, he'll go. This is called punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. In the club, the son is also dancing with the girl, and the old father is dancing, and by chance, they come in contact. The Western civilization is for this, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna, eat voraciously, and all become diabetics. They have got diabetes club, association. That means... What is this? Diabetes is the result of voracious eating. That's all. In old age it becomes very prominent because he eats voraciously, but he cannot digest. And all these foodstuffs becomes... What is called? Glucose? Hari-śauri: Right. Prabhupāda: And then diabetes. The beginning-āhāra, eating. That gentleman, that doctor who has given us that review, he has. He's very learned man. Indian man (1): Mr. Shannam? Prabhupāda: No, no. From France. Devotee (2): The professor. Prabhupāda: Hm. He has mentioned, "From the Vedic standard, we are all uncivilized. We Westerners are uncivilized." He has admitted that. Actually they are. Dayānanda: Yes, they will be shocked when they find this out because the idea is that... Prabhupāda: Now, just like a man is suffering from tuberculosis, and if his physician says that "You are attacked with tuberculosis," then he'll shocked. But the fact is there. Dayānanda: They think that the Vedic culture is uncivilized. Prabhupāda: They think because they are foolish rascals. They do not know what is the value of life. Big, big professor, he said, "Swamiji, after death everything is finished. There is no soul." Professor Kotovsky. This is their education. Dayānanda: And then they wonder why their sons become hippies and act like monkeys. Even though they are civilized, their sons are acting like monkeys. Prabhupāda: Actually we are introducing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to make the Western people civilized. Yes. So you should take it very seriously and behave with responsibility. If you also want, become again like that, then how you'll be able to preach? Then what is the use of preaching? What is time? *Indian man (1): Six*-thirty. Jayapatākā: [Break] ...process. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: So is it necessary to be fixed up to take sannyāsa, or one should take sannyāsa to become fixed up? *Prabhupāda: To become fixed, become sannyāsī, the other three processes are there, to become brahmacārī, to become gṛhastha, to become vānaprastha, stage by stage. But if one is able, he can take sannyāsa. The stages are there, but if one is very competent, he can be given sannyāsa. And that competency is also very simple. If you become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you can immediately become competent. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. As soon as you fully engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then immediately you become more than a sannyāsī. Jayapatākā: Your Divine Grace is so merciful because the Western people, they are habituated to so many bad habits which weren't existed, existing in the Vedic time amongst the higher classes. Still, you are introducing all these things for them. Many times devotees, they don't take that seriously. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Bengali) Ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati. What is this? [break] ...our field or some other field, but food must be there. If you don't eat sufficiently, how you'll be able to work? Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya. We are not after dry speculation. Practical. Eat sufficiently. Work sufficiently. Don't be lazy. But the danger is if you eat more than sufficient, then you'll sleep sufficient. Therefore yuktāhāra, as much as you require, take it. Don't take more; don't take less. This is the law of nature. Just like salt. You salt require. But if you take more, it is useless, and if you take less, it is useless. If in the vegetable the salt is more, then it is uneatable; if it is less, uneatable. Take as it is. It is not that "Because there is ocean of salt, let me three pounds' salt." That is going on. "Oh, it is available? Now let me eat." And then he becomes sick. Dayānanda: For somebody who can work more, then he can eat little more. Prabhupāda: Hm? Dayānanda: If somebody can work more, then he can eat more. Prabhupāda: No. Work more and work less doesn't matter. If he's actually hungry, he can take. Work must be there. If he does not work, what is the use of eating? Jayapatākā: This program... Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: The difficulty that every person has not got the same mentality... One... Prabhupāda: That... That will depend on the preaching of the sannyāsīs. What is this? Frame? Indian man (1): It's a hot iron building, Prabhupāda. Hari-śauri: It's the wrong type of renunciation. *Prabhupāda: There is no renunciation. There is sense gratification. "I like this." That's all. He is thinking that "I am so renounced," but he's still satisfying his senses. That's all. As soon as we manufacture something, that is sense gratification. "I want to fulfill my desire. That's all." That is sense gratification. It may be I sit down on the tree, or I may sit down on the palace. That is sense... The basic principle is sense gratification. The other day I was talking about hīrā*-cora and kṣīrā-cora. Hīrā means diamond. And kṣīrā means... Devotees: Cucumber. *Prabhupāda: "I shall steal. I shall steal one cucumber." And another one thinks, "If I steal, I shall steal the diamond." But the stealing propensity is there, hīrā*-cora or kṣīrā-cora. "Well, I am stealing one..., only one cucumber. That is not very dangerous." But, but to the eyes of law, both of them are criminal, either you take hīrā or kṣīrā. Big thief and small thief, that's all. Thief. You are thief. So we manufacture concoction that "Yes, I have got this stealing propensity. So I'll not steal diamond. I'll steal kṣīrā, not hīrā." This is only mental concoction, but he is a thief. Jayapatākā: I think this side's... Prabhupāda: Hm ? Jayapatākā: So gṛhastha life is Kṛṣṇa allowing us to steal kṣīrā? *Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes, kṣīrā*-cora. The prostitute-hunter is hīrā-cora, and he's a kṣīrā-cora. That's all. Hari-śauri: [break] ...sense gratification that comes from renouncing like that, that's like the Māyāvādīs. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Hari-śauri: By artificial renouncing everything, they're actually simply another form of sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Not artificial. It is a process. We have to give up this sense gratification. Go through a process to trained up. Just like sometimes in the club there is artificial swimming. Is it not? Artificial swimming. That is not swimming. But to practice something. Hṛdayānanda: Or the... Dayānanda: But sometimes people who renounce like that, they become very proud. What is that? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hm. *Jagad*-guru: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are you pleased when your disciples do things like that? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Jagad*-guru: Are you pleased when your disciples do things like that...? Prabhupāda: Artificial? *Jagad*-guru: Well, such things as Sharma Prabhu's doing. Prabhupāda: I do not know. What is that? What is his question? Devotee (2): He asked if you're pleased if your disciples do things like Sharma, if they, like, go to live in trees and do artificial renunciation? Prabhupāda: No, he's trying. That's all. But active service is more important. Hṛdayānanda: Hm. That is your example. Prabhupāda: But something is better than nothing. If he goes, goes away to practice somewhere else, better give him chance to practice this. He's not doing anything bad. That is good. That is... But the better service is to be active servant, servitor. Hari-śauri: That's your mercy on us. Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, personally He gives example. He could have done at His home. Why He took sannyāsa and went out of home? Devotee (3): We have one boy at the temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he doesn't want to do any work. He simply reads, and he says that "I will not do any work now, but when I become realized by reading," he says, "then I will engage in work." Prabhupāda: No, no, he's reading. That is working. If he's... But he is sleeping, that is another thing. In the name of reading, sometimes we sleep. If that is not done, it is all right. He's reading. That's all right. But if he shows that "I am reading," but he's sleeping secretly, that is bad. To see that he's not sleeping, he's actually reading. Indian devotee (4): He's life member also, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: : Hm? Anyway, if he's doing something, that's good. Hari-śauri: I read where you said that if one simply reads, though, one cannot become realized in the philosophy. One has to actually do something practical, and then the realization will be there from what he has read. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: [break] ...are nondifferent. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: Service and reading are nondifferent? *Prabhupāda: Yes, if one is actually reading. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī. He was reading. Nānā-śāstra*-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau. But he must be expertly reading, not as a book worm, expert. Jayapatākā: And on the other hand, sometimes devotees are only engaged in service, and then, without reading, and they... Prabhupāda: But every, everyone... You cannot expect everyone is capable for reading. Jayapatākā: They have desire to read, but they have no opportunity. And then in their service, they become... They lose sight sometimes, where they, because of fallen condition, they cannot remember Kṛṣṇa in their service. But while reading, one can easily..., cannot help but remember Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: If he cannot remember Kṛṣṇa, he will sleep. That is the test. When you have seen so many reading but sleeping, that means there is no Kṛṣṇa. Yāhāṅ kṛṣṇa tāhāṅ nāhi māyāra adhikāra. Sleeping is māyā, so if he's thinking of Kṛṣṇa, there cannot be sleeping. Jayapatākā: No, I'm talking not about the reading half, but the service half. Prabhupāda: Service also... Everything depends on advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If Kṛṣṇa is there, either you read or work as a coolie, the same thing. Jayapatākā: You instructed that service is as good as reading, but only... We see that devotees only doing service without reading, then they become agitated in their mind. Prabhupāda: That means there is no Kṛṣṇa. The real disease is there is no Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he'll be agitated, either reading or working. Jayapatākā: So how can they, the Kṛṣṇa...? Prabhupāda: That, if they... One must go through this practice. Everyone must attend the ārā..., maṅgala-ārātrika. One must attend this. One must attend this. Otherwise no prasādam. If one says, "I am sick," no prasādam. "You are sick. You cannot digest. That's all." And sick, sleeping, and at the time of prasādam, voracious eating, that is not sickness. If you are sick, you cannot take food. Don't take. (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 27, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: ...What they'll encourage? To become thief? Devotee (1): It looks like that. Prabhupāda: A secular state? Hṛdayānanda: To encourage nationalism, serving the government, it's economic development... Prabhupāda: That's all right. The people become thieves and rogues, then how the economic development will be possible? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This they can see. There's been no progress since they became... Prabhupāda: ...they should be, apart from religion, they should be educated to become truthful, to become merciful, to..., like these ordinary things. They should be educated. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they're not being taught. Prabhupāda: So where is the...? What is the meaning of secular? Does it mean... Secularism means roguism? [break] Hṛdayānanda: He has no shame. He again wants to be in. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think he'd be interested. Hṛdayānanda: No. It is there. (?) They have absolutely no shame. They will again come back. Devotee (1): Actually, they are all doing it; he just got caught. So he doesn't feel so bad. It's like a game. Prabhupāda: So how, if the state has condemned him as dishonest man, how he's being appointed as ambassador? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's not being appointed so far. Hṛdayānanda: But he is making... He's trying to... He's trying to position himself to try to get that... He's aspiring. Like Dhṛtarāṣṭra. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a rascal. Hṛdayānanda: [break] ... going to jail, after he was caught, he made a trick that he... There were reports that "Now the president, he has been kicked out. He is so much depressed, he is going insane. The only way he can be saved is you must pardon him." So the new president, he pardoned him to... Devotee (1): There was also some talk that the arrangement was made before. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (1): In the newspapers, I also read that there was some talk before. Like they're actually friends. So they just feel, "Well, he got caught. We'll give him another try." Hṛdayānanda: That "If you'll go away and let me be the president, then I'll get you out of jail." Devotee (1): "We'll make some arrangement." Hṛdayānanda: "I'll give you pardon." Devotee (1): They don't con... [Break] Prabhupāda: ...an agreement that "Ford, if you want to become president immediately, you accept this, that you'll excuse me. Then I resign. You become immediately. Otherwise, I'll continue. Let me see. So you'll be delayed." So he thought, "I am going to be immediately president. All right, agree. That's all." *Devotee (1): He made him his vice*-president. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hṛdayānanda: No, no. That was before. *Prabhupāda: Vice*-president? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That was another... *Hṛdayānanda: Nixon had made Ford vice*-president. *Prabhupāda: He was vice*-president. Ford? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is his contribution to the state after becoming President? Hṛdayānanda: Ford? Prabhupāda: No, Ford, no, I mean Nixon. When he was being elected, I was there in America. He was advertising, "America needs Nixon." You have seen that? Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: You were driving me. I saw that time. Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: At that time, we had no place. We were holding our classes on the garage and somewhere. Before coming to La Cienega... Dayānanda: Hm, yes. *Prabhupāda: ...I was running on that road where there is tram*-line. What is that road? Hṛdayānanda: Which road? Dayānanda: Melrose, I think? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Hṛdayānanda: That was 1968. Prabhupāda: 1969... I do not know. Dayānanda: '69 Prabhupāda: '69, yes. Hṛdayānanda: The election was '68. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That time he lost to Johnson, I think. Hṛdayānanda: No. Prabhupāda: No, no, he was being elected. So he was... The signboard was "America needs Nixon." Hari-śauri: I think, when he was thrown out of office, he said "Well, I may have had so many faults, but at least I increased our good relations with other countries." He was always... He was trying to convince everybody that he may not have been very good at domestic affairs, but at foreign affairs he was expert, so then that made his administration not so bad. Hṛdayānanda: One thing... The one thing that caused his downfall, that when they heard the tapes... He had recorded all of his conversations, private conversations with his ministers. So it turned out that it was horrible language. Practically every other word was dirty word. Prabhupāda: That dirty word used by him? Hṛdayānanda: Practically every other word. Dayānanda: Filthy language. Hṛdayānanda: They discovered... So this is what also hurt him because they discovered some tape of private conversations, and it was very, very obscene. Practically every other word was bad word. Prabhupāda: He was a lawyer. He's a lawyer? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. *Dayānanda: In America now, so many so*-called cultured men, lawyers and doctors and so many cultured men, their language is very horrible, their... Prabhupāda: Vulgar. *Dayānanda: Their whole attitude is vulgar also, not just language but whole... Yeah. And like even in Europe before, a gentleman was a gentleman. They were... I think. And even in America before, they had some good qualities. But now the so*-called gentlemen or educated men, they're very vulgar. Hṛdayānanda: Vicious. Dayānanda: Becoming more and more gross. *Prabhupāda: Varṇa*-saṅkara. Dayānanda: Yes. Like that. Prabhupāda: Therefore their sons are hippies. Dayānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: The father is varṇa*-saṅkara, the son is also. Hari-śauri: The more vulgar you are, the more glorified you become, especially like all these film stars and public figures. The more of a drunkard they are, then the more they're publicized in the news. Prabhupāda: Just like John Lennon. He is a public man. Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just see. What he is? He's standing naked and taking photograph. His wife and he, standing naked. I have seen. And that picture is there in his sitting room, fireplace. That is the picture. (laughs) I went to see him. I was his guest. So one day I was... I saw there that big picture on the fireplace. And here is a public... Newspapermen go to him to take his opinion. "What is your opinion?" Just see. What is his value? Nobody... He is public leader because he has got some money. Money is the criterion. Therefore people are accumulating money some way or other. He knows that "If I got money, then I'll have all influence over the society." Hari-śauri: A rich man no matter what his morals or character... Prabhupāda: No, nobody cares. Hari-śauri: ...he becomes very attractive. *Prabhupāda: Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no good quality. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. These are the... From the Vedic angle of vision, the Western people are the most uncivilized. Only money is covering them. When they introduced that mini*-skirt for the girl, how much abominable it was considered in India. But they very publicly introduced. Hari-śauri: Now even in India, slowly... Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll imitate. *Devotee (1): When the prime minister of Canada, when he was, when he first began running, he was a young bachelor, very good looking, long hair. And he sent around girls in mini*-skirts, kissing men on the cheeks, giving them a little candy for his campaign, and he, he almost got all the votes, became the prime minister. Dayānanda: We were talking yesterday how nice this story of Prahlāda Mahārāja is, because no matter how great a demon becomes, still, he cannot vanquish the devotees, even if the devotee is a very insignificant little boy, only five years old. These demons seem so... Hari-śauri: Powerful. Dayānanda: ...horrible. The society is so degraded. [break] Hari-śauri: 6:20. Prabhupāda: Eh? The idea of reincarnation. That is horrible for them. Hari-śauri: If they understood that they would have to pay later for what they're doing now, they wouldn't be able to do it. Prabhupāda: Oh. So, what is the report? Jayapatākā: Er... The printing? Prabhupāda: Eh? Our. (?) Fifty thousand. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We're doing that, printing fifty... Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: That will be ready after the festival? [break] ...an elephant? Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: Elephant? Prabhupāda: No elephant. Why elephant? Elephant is royal. We are not royal. We are beggars, sannyāsī, beggars. Hṛdayānanda: These buses arriving in the village will be very... People will never forget it. Hari-śauri: That procession we had in the villages near Ahmedabad, in the villages there, that must have been a once in a lifetime experience for most of them. Prabhupāda: We can go there... And now, wherever we shall go, they will be received like that. Jayapatākā: They especially mentioned... Prabhupāda: The Indian people are meant for that purpose. They are from the birth, janma... Other, they are janmanā śūdra, but Indians, they are janmanā devotees. Jayapatākā: I meant to mention that he commented that when they were coming from Andhra, when they, as they're getting closer to Bengal, in Orissa, and then even more so in Bengal, the, both in Ori... so many kīrtana was there. The people were meeting them with kīrtana and everyone was doing kīrtana. But in Andhra and other places, not so much kīrtana is there. Prabhupāda: No. Jayapatākā: They say they get much better reception in Orissa and Bengal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because... Jayapatākā: And already they picked up one devotee, I think. Devotees come also quicker. Hṛdayānanda: Lord Caitanya... Jayapatākā: I think if we concentrated first in Bengal and Orissa, we get some, enough devotees, and then they could help us in the other villages elsewhere. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: All over India. Like Madana already got three devotees when I was there in one week. By now he may also have more. Bengalis like kīrtana very much. [break] ...devotees are Bengalis. Prabhupāda: ...ago Bengali culture was very much adored all over India. Even one big politician, Gandhi's guru, Goke, Gokule, he remarked, "What Bengal thinks today, other provinces will think tomorrow." He said like that. And actually all big, big movements started from Bengal. The national movement also was started from Bengal. Whatever we may criticize Vivekananda, when... He's a Bengali. He went first for preaching Indian religion. Rabindranath Tagore, he's a Bengali. All big, big... Jayapatākā: Aurobindo. Prabhupāda: Aurobindo is a Bengali. Devotee (2): Paramahaṁsa Yogananda is also a Bengali. Prabhupāda: Yes. You know him? Devotee (2): I don't know him... (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, no... Devotee (2): I've heard of him. Prabhupāda: Bengali culture was very much adored. Surendranath Bannerjee started the political movement, and he was so well known. Even in Parliament, the Englishmen, English M.P.'s, he... They were speaking of Surendranath. They used to say "Surrendered not." "Here is a person who is not 'Surrender not.' He'll never surrender. 'Surrender not.' " Actually, the British Empire was startled by the agitation of Surendranath Bannerjee. The Congress was started by Surendranath Bannerjee, this one Congress. Two Bengali and one Englishman started this Congress sometimes in 1887, 1867, like that. So in our childhood we used to see that Surendranath Bannerjee was being elected president of Congress almost every year. And Gandhi came into prominence when Surendranath Bannerjee surrendered. Formerly he was not surrendering. But the government gave him the first ministership, that "You become minister." So he became a government man. Then Gandhi came in prominence. Surendranath Bannerjee was the first minister in India. [break] ...in our childhood, if he would speak, thousands, thousands men will gather in Calcutta. [break] ...Surendranath Bannerjee Road. Jayapatākā: Yes, very prominent road. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where my nephews have shop, Surendranath Bannerjee Road. Jayapatākā: They did not knight him... [break] Prabhupāda: His father was also very big man, Dr. Durgacaran Bannerjee. My sister hus..., Durgacaran Bannerjee, that is Surendranath Bannerjee father. He was a medical man. Jayapatākā: It's a smaller road. *Prabhupāda: Eh? Doctor's land, Dr. Durgacaran Bannerjee Road, they belonged to very respectable family of that quarter, Bannerjee family. And Surendranath Bannerjee was the first I.C.S. I.C.S. He passed I.C.S. examination, Indian Civil Service, but he did not accept it. Aurobindo Ghosh was made by Surendranath Bannerjee. He was born in London. Aurobindo Ghosh's father, Manmohan Ghosh, he was a medical man in London. He was born... He's English birth. Well, later on, he became English*-hater. *Jayapatākā: French*-lover. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: Lover of the French. Prabhupāda: He? Jayapatākā: Aurobindo? Prabhupāda: No, who says? Jayapatākā: He always had some French people with him? Prabhupāda: No, no. That... One French girl entrapped him. That woman spoiled him. He was actually practicing yoga very nice. After his release from political entanglement, actually he became a yogi, but this Frenchwoman, who became later on "Mother," she spoiled her ca..., his career. He became a bhogī then. (laughter) Instead of yogi... Otherwise, he was becoming yogi. You'll find from his photo. In the beginning, he was very lean and thin, and later on, when he died, he was very fatty. Means bhogī. [break] ...yogi bhogī, rogī. There are three. Devotee (3): Rogī. Prabhupāda: Rogī means diseased, and bhogī means flourishing, and yogi means transcendentalist. Hṛdayānanda: Rogī. Hari-śauri: What is...? A yogi passes stool once a day, a bhogī twice and a rogī more. Prabhupāda: Who told you. Eh? *Hari-śauri: That's what we were told when we first joined the temple to stop us over*-eating. Jayapatākā: Some devotees were holding their stool for the next day to be a yogi, (laughter) the second time coming. And getting stomachache. Prabhupāda: Is it a fact? Jayapatākā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Jayapatākā: I heard... They thought that was the criterion. Prabhupāda: This is called makṣī maṇḍa kanani. (?) A clerk was making a fair book from the rough book. So he went to the toilet room and he was... Like this. So all of a sudden his boss came: "What you are doing here?" "Sir, I am trying to capture one fly." "And why?" "No, I am making the fair copy of the book, but in the original book, there is a fly smashed. (laughter) So I have to paste one fly." There are such fools. Makṣī maṇḍa kanani. "There is a fly, paste. So in the fair copy, there must be a fly, paste." [break] Yes. Unless there is pūjārī, what is the meaning of temple? Jayapatākā: Separate? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is actual temple. Jayapatākā: Well, they'll be so many brāhmaṇas being made. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jayapatākā: Everything... Even he includes Buddha and Kalki. Hari-śauri: All the incarnations as well. Jayapatākā: I... In the last... Prabhupāda: Daśāvatāra. *Jayapatākā: Fifty*-three avatāras. *Prabhupāda: Fifty*-three? *Jayapatākā: Yes, I don't..., he..., fifty*-three, know why. Prabhupāda: How many avatāras are there mentioned in the Bhāgavata? *Hari-śauri: About twenty*-six or something like that. *Jayapatākā: Twenty*-five, twenty-six. *Hari-śauri: Twenty*-five or twenty-six. And then all the Viṣṇu expansions. *Jayapatākā: They needed twenty*-four Viṣṇu expansions and then the incarnations in the Bhāgavatam. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-six? That is Vaikuṇṭha. Anyway... [break] Yes, planetarium... Devotee (4): Temple and planetarium. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (4): "World's largest planetarium and Temple of Understanding." Prabhupāda: No "Understanding" simply Vedic "Temple of Vedic Planetarium," That's all. We shall show the Vedic conception of planetary system within this material world and above the material world. [break] We are going to exhibit the Vedic culture throughout the whole world, and they'll come here. Jayapatākā: The whole world will be coming here to... Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: ...visit. Prabhupāda: Just like they come to see the Taj Mahal... Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...the architectural culture, they'll come to see the civilization culture, the philosophical culture, the religious culture by practical demonstration with dolls and other things. Jayapatākā: And we'll be advertising that all over the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: It is a perfect plan. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: There can be a model of that temple in every temple all over the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: So then people can... Then advertising, "Come here." Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Actually it will be an unique thing in the world. There is no such thing all over the world. That we shall do. And not only simply showing museum, but educating people to that idea. Hṛdayānanda: Preaching. Prabhupāda: Right. With factual knowledge, books, not fictitious. (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 28, 1976, Mäyäpura *Prabhupāda: So anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna. he's a... He's madman. Actually everyone is mad. That is the medical report. Do they give some present? No. Kīrtirāja: Not some present, but even, even the policemen, they are stopping the traffic, especially when they see the devotees coming. In Calcutta we saw. We were driving from Germany with Gargamuni Mahārāja in those six vans, and the policemen were especially stopping the traffic so that we could come through. And in New York also, the policemen on the street, they are dancing. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Kīrtirāja: When the saṅkīrtana party is coming, sometimes they are raising their arms and they are dancing also, because they see that we are, that this movement is not like the other movements. The others, they are just staying hippies, and now they are... They have some guru. Prabhupāda: These rascal gurus... Kīrtirāja: Like you said yesterday, they are all rascals. Prabhupāda: It has been discussed by that professor. Dayānanda: From France? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dayānanda: Yes. Kīrtirāja: He said they have..., these translations of Aurobindo and Ramakrishna are modernized. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtirāja: I think they are modernized and compromised. That's why they are so popular, because you can do whatever you want... Prabhupāda: It is not popular, not very. Kīrtirāja: Yeah, and they aren't even popular, no. Dayānanda: Popular amongst the mūḍhas. Prabhupāda: They are mūḍhas. They do not know anything, and they write books. Devotee: Didn't that Dr. Radhakrishnan go crazy at the end of life, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtirāja: I think you have visited him... Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtirāja: ...and he was not able to even talk. Prabhupāda: No. Kīrtirāja: How can that be God? (end) *Morning Walk-*-February 29, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: Lakṣmī should be engaged in the service of Nārāyaṇa. At the present moment, Lakṣmī is under the clutches of Rāvaṇa, rākṣasa. So it should be delivered. Hanumān... So I am trying for that purpose, to deliver Sītā from the clutches of Rāvaṇa. That is my mission. Kīrtirāja: You are succeeding also. Prabhupāda: Rāvaṇa class man wants only Sītā, not Rāma. Rāma, they are condemning, these rascals, Suniti Chatterjee and others. But our mission is to keep Rāma and Sītā together. We are not satisfied that Rāma should remain alone and Sītā should be under the custody of Rāvaṇa. We can't... I don't want. Sītā must be released from the custody of Rāvaṇa. With opulence means we are bringing Sītā nearer, nearer, nearer... That is wanted. Otherwise, for a sannyāsī, what is the use of these big buildings? No. We want these big buildings for service of Rāma. Devotee (1): [break]... Prabhupāda, in the material world for motivating a person to collect lakṣmī, but this has to be the most beautiful point I ever heard. *Prabhupāda: This is the real point. All other points besides this, they are Rāvaṇa's point. [Break] ...adjust things, taking Sītā from the clutches of one Rāvaṇa to the another Rāvaṇa. The material... At the present moment... Just like the Communist. They are trying to take away money from the capitalists. So this process is taking Sītā from clutches of Rāvaṇa, and it goes to another Rāvaṇa. Because both of them are Rāvaṇa, so there is no meaning to it. There will be no benefit. It has failed already. The Communist movement, it is simply now Lordism (?). Just like there are many rogues and dacoits. They plunder money and sometimes give to the poor. So this is another edition of the same thing, one Rāvaṇa to another Rāvaṇa. Just like Ramakrishna Mission*-daridra-nārāyaṇa-theory only, and that is also not perfect. It cannot be perfect. Communist theory is to take the money from the capitalists and distribute it to the poor, to the mass people. Kīrtirāja: But I have seen that they are not even distributing it to the poor. Prabhupāda: That cannot be... Kīrtirāja: There is no food. And there is even nothing to eat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtirāja: Nothing to eat... Prabhupāda: Nothing to receive. Kīrtirāja: ...nothing to eat, no flowers. So they are not even distributing it. Prabhupāda: So in Poland, there is no fruit, flower, eh? Kīrtirāja: Flowers are almost one dollar for one carnation. Fruit, I... The only fruit I have seen is apples. Oranges are very expensive, and that is all. Prabhupāda: Apples and that strawberry. In Russia, I have seen only strawberry. That's all. No fruit..., no other fruit. Fruit means strawberry. These rascals do not see that they are being punished by nature. Hari-śauri: Their idea is that the more the struggle goes on, the better, the more glorified, they are. *Prabhupāda: And therefore it is called "ass." (laughter) Ass works very hard, and he thinks, "I am glorified." Mūḍha. Therefore they are called mūḍha. Ugra*-karma. Kīrtirāja: I have seen driving from Germany that even sometimes they don't have an animal ass. They become the ass, and they are carrying the big load on their back, almost on four legs. It is so heavy. (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 1, 1976, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: Atomic theory... Acyutānanda: The atomic theory... Dayānanda: What is the atomic theory? Hṛdayānanda: Atomic... That everything is constituted of different atoms, and the ultimate truth is the atomic particle, and by different combinations of these particles, different material manifestations are produced, and there's no other cause except this endless combining of atomic particles. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the atom comes? Hṛdayānanda: The atom is the eternal fact. It is inconceivable or it's unexplainable where it has come from. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of your explaining? Then you prove yourself you are a rascal. Inexplicable? Why you are trying to explain? *Guru*-kṛpā: "We're not explaining. We're just accepting it's a fact." *Prabhupāda: So everything is fact. But the real knowledge is to find out the source of the fact. That is real knowledge. Just like if we ask any gentleman-at least in India*-for your identification, your father's name is required, your name of the village is required. If you go to the court, then such and such; father's name, such and such; village, this; religion, this; like this.... So father.... Why father's name? "What is the source of your existence? Wherefrom you are coming?" "I am coming from this family." So that is knowledge. Atom.... Atomic theory is there in Vedic conception, paramāṇuvāda. Kaṇada, the great sage, Kaṇada, he gave this theory, Kaṇada. Paramāṇuvāda. Paramāṇuvād. Paramāṇuvāda is accepted in Vedic philosophy also. But we know what is this paramāṇu also. Just like the sunshine. What is the sunshine? A combination of shining atoms. But we can see it is coming from the sun, incessantly coming. We can see. We can, immediately say, "This is.... The source is the sun." Similarly, the paramanu, the atoms, they are incessantly coming out. But wherefrom it is coming? *Guru*-kṛpā: Does that mean that the atom is living entity? *Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Living entity is also atom. One class of atom is matter, and one class of atom is the living entity. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā.... Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca [Bg. 7.4]. These are... This material, matter, everything is combination of atom, atomic particles. Either you take earth or take water or air or fire, everything is combination of atom. That's a fact. But we know that these atoms are coming out as the energy of Kṛṣṇa. Bhinnā. Bhinnā means the quality different; not of the same quality. Apareyam: "This is inferior quality, but there is another, superior quality, jīva bhuta, and that is living entity." So two kinds of atoms are coming from Kṛṣṇa. One is the spiritual atom, and the other is the material atom. So spiritual atoms, they are many, many times greater than the material atoms. And these material atoms is this universal, innumerable universes. Some of the spiritual atoms, when they want to enjoy independently, they are given the chance of enjoying this material atom. So in the material world it is combination of material and spiritual atoms. In the spiritual world, there is no material atom; *everything spirit. That is three*-fourth energy, and this is one fourth. Paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. [break] *Guru*-kṛpā: If we say that Kṛṣṇa enters even within the atom, what is His business there? Prabhupāda: Business is to guide the rascals like you. (laughter) Do you follow or not? *Guru*-kṛpā: Well, the material atoms... *Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa loves you so much that even you accept this material atom, He goes to help you. Therefore He is within. Because sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. The living entity has a..., enjoying this material world. So he has got everything. He's a person. He has got his heart. So in the heart there is Kṛṣṇa. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭho. You read Bhagavad*-gītā. Why? Why He has..., sarvasya cāhām hṛdi sanniviṣṭho? Hmm? Who will say? Why He has...? Your question is "Why?" Hṛdayānanda: Mattaḥ smṛtir... *Prabhupāda: Ah! Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam. He's always trying: "You rascal, why you are suffering in this way? Come back home." This is the answer. He's so kind. That is His kindness. Sarvasya cāhām hṛdi sanniviṣṭho mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. We are talking of this philosophy, "How?" Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence. Otherwise, how it is possible? The same thing, as we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness by the dictation of Kṛṣṇa*-Kṛṣṇa is asking, sarva-dharmān parityaja mām ekaṁ śaraṇa-so in the atom also He's doing the same business. Aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. Now your question is answered or not? Eh? Hṛdayānanda: Your question is answered? *Guru*-kṛpā: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Why Kṛṣṇa is within the atom? That is answered or not? Wherever there is the living entity, Kṛṣṇa is there as friend. Su*-parna, sayujā. So, from the śāstra it is understood, as many material atoms are there, so many spiritual atoms are there. Now you can imagine how many living entities are there. (sic:) Physists, they have not been able to find out the spiritual atom. Therefore they are puzzled, and their scientific research is incomplete. But the Bhagavad-gītā gives them information, "You rascal, this is inferior. These material atoms are inferior." Apareyam. They'll not take it. Apareyam itas tu: "Besides this, there is another energy, spiritual energy." "What is that spiritual energy? We do find." "You don't find? Why don't you see jīva-bhūta, these living entities?" But they are rascals. They will not see. They cannot understand what is this living entity, and Kṛṣṇa is saying, "Here is another atom. Apareyam itas tu me viddhi prakṛtiṁ parā." But the rascal will not take it. This is their rascaldom. Kṛṣṇa is giving them information, and still, they'll not take it. This is their dog obstinacy. Solution is there. They won't have to make very difficult research work. Here is information. But they'll not take it. The atoms which you are studying, that is all right. That is material, apara, inferior. But there is another atom. And if you say, "What is that atom? We do not find," "Don't you find this living entity?" And still, they are... They say the problems are solved. Just see how foolish they are. He's seeing the living entity, and Kṛṣṇa is pointing out: "Here is the superior atom," and still they say, "We do not know." What to do with them? Eh? They cannot find out by their own research, and the information is there by Kṛṣṇa, and still they'll not take it. So, what is to do with them? Dayānanda: We can show that they are fools by presenting your literatures, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dayānanda: We can show that they are actually fools by... Prabhupāda: No, no... Dayānanda: ...presenting your books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Our Acyutānanda Mahārāja says... Eh? Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: What do you think? Acyutānanda: I couldn't follow. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda said, "What should we do with these scientists? They won't accept Kṛṣṇa's knowledge that there is a soul..." Prabhupāda: They are find..., researching atom. They could not come to the ultimate conclusion. And we say that this atom is energy, but it is inferior, and there is another energy. So they, if they say that "We do not find anything except this atom..." Acyutānanda: They cannot explain how, in the body, by eating food, it turns into... Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not the question of... First of all, decide there are two kinds of energies working. Acyutānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Material energy and spiritual energy. So, so far material energy, they have come to the point of atom, and they are searching out. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, this material atom is all right. But this is apara. This is inferior. There is another superior energy, atom." What is that? "This jīva*-bhūta." So why don't you not see it? How rascal they are. Jīva-bhūta is there. He is seeing jīva bhuta, living... So Kṛṣṇa is giving information, "Here is the superior atom." Why don't do they not see to it? Acyutānanda: Because they are so sinful, they cannot see. Prabhupāda: Yeah. That is the... Acyutānanda: Like Duryodhana. Even people criticize Kṛṣṇa, "Why He could not convince Duryodhana to be peaceful?" Because there was nothing... He was so sinful that he had used up all his pious... Prabhupāda: So that is the Duryodhana party. Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Acchā. Acyutānanda: The scientists are all sinful. Prabhupāda: The Duryodhana party, and we are Pāṇḍu's party. So there must be war always, fighting. And they'll be smashed. Hṛdayāni vya... You know that? "Breaking the heart of the Dhārtarāṣṭra." So we have to make preaching in such a way to break the heart of this Dhṛtarāṣṭra company. Dayānanda: Dhārtarāṣṭrān vyadārayat. Prabhupāda: Ah, vyadārayat. Then it will be preaching. There are two energies everywhere. The example is given: just like the sun, the two energies working, heat and light. Everyone can see. Parasya brāhmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ. Śakti means energy. So whatever we are seeing, that is combination of two energies of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is also saying the same thing. Parasya brāhmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ. Any child can understand. The sun is situated in one place, localized, and his heat and energy, atomic particles, is being distributed all over the universe. What is this fog? Eh? What is this fog which is obstructing seeing the sun? What is this fog? Hm? Devotees: Water. Prabhupāda: Yes. The water is also an energy of sun. Because heat is there, within the heat there is water. What is, the physists say? What is the source of water? What do they say? Acyutānanda: They say all the energy is created from the sun, all the planets... Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. The sun is heat. So the water is there from the heat. [break] ...these scientists, making research work to find out what is after atom, proton, neutron. They're searching out. Acyutānanda: They're never satisfied with their achievements. Prabhupāda: No, they cannot be because they did not find out what is the ultimate source. They could not. Therefore they cannot be satisfied. If... A really scientist, how he can be satisfied? The goal is not yet achieved. How they can be satisfied? But we are satisfied because we know that the goal, the cause, ultimate cause, is Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...instruction is not blind. It is fact. Just like my body is there, and on account of my energy, so I am getting flesh, I am getting nail. Acyutānanda: Yes, they cannot explain how the body transforms into... Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: ...tissue. Prabhupāda: Yes. But explain or not explain, I am seeing practically that two things are coming out: one, the skin, where there is sensation; and where, this nail, there is no sensation. This is matter and spirit. Where there is consciousness, that is spirit. Where there is no consciousness, that is matter. Hṛdayānanda: Very good example. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hṛdayānanda: Very nice example. *Prabhupāda: But both of them are coming from me. So this sensation, this consciousness, is perfect when it comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is developing, in every living entity is developing. The consciousness, the sensation, is there in the tree also, but he is not developed. When the same consciousness comes to the complete perfection, then he understands, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. That is perfection. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: "The real source is Vasudeva." Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Then he glorifies Vasudeva. But to know Vasudeva, you make research. That is one way, going on. But if you accept... Vasudeva says, "I am everything." Then accept immediately. The whole solution is there. Two, two ways: āroha*-panthā, avaroha-panthā. You are trying to search out. Go on. It will take many, many births. But if you accept... The same Vasudeva is coming kindly ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8]. You accept it, then the knowledge is perfect. Suppose I am making this sound (makes sound with cane). Underneath they are puzzled: "Wherefrom this sound is coming?" They are making research. And if I say, "I am making this sound," then everything, knowledge, is there. The rascal will not surrender. Ask the man who is making sound. Then the knowledge is perfect. But he'll make research: "Wherefrom the sound came?" This is rascaldom. And one man is suggesting, "It is... The sound may be like this. The sound may be due to this." They are going on, researching. But if I say, "You rascal, why you are contemplating like that? I made this sound like this (make sound with cane). That's all," So that knowledge they'll not take. Mūḍhāḥ. Therefore they are... Nābhijānati. Mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. So if we call them all mūḍhas, what is the wrong? They become angry. But if we call them, all these rascals, mūḍhas, what is the wrong? They say, "Oh, you are using very strong language. You are calling us all mūḍhas." But actually you are all mūḍhas because you do not know Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...ment of atom? *Dayānanda: One ten*-thousandth the tip of a hair. Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no, atom, this atom. Scientists, they are studying atom. So what is the measurement of atom? Hṛdayānanda: So small that... Prabhupāda: "So small that..." A child can say like that. Acyutānanda: They are all different sizes. Hṛdayānanda: That a million, they say that... Prabhupāda: No, no. There are two sizes. One is anu, and one is paramanu. Six anus make one paramanu. That is statement. Six anus, and combine together it becomes a paramanu. That is atom. Therefore they are dividing atom. That is already there in the Vedic literature. Acyutānanda: So the scientists' conception of atom is wrong? Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: The scientists' conception of the atom is wrong. Prabhupāda: Everything is wrong. Acyutānanda: But by their, even though they are, they are wrong, by their conception they are making an atomic bomb. They can utilize... Prabhupāda: So far you can, can... Acyutānanda: To show results. Prabhupāda: That does not mean he knows everything. That does not mean... Acyutānanda: No, but he can say... Prabhupāda: Suppose you, you, if you can make a nice vegetable preparation, but that does not mean you know everything of the vegetable. That does not mean. You are still rascal. Although you can prepare a nice preparation with vegetable. But that does not mean you know everything of the vegetable. That is karu kārya. That is called karu kārya. Just like this mason worker. They know how to set up the bricks and doing nice work. But that does not mean... Wherefrom the brick has come? You can take this flower, make a, what is called, in a vase, can make a beautiful... Devotee (1): Bouquet. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): Bouquet? Acyutānanda: Arrangement. *Prabhupāda: Yes, bouquet, yes. That does not mean you know how the flower has come out. That is called visarga. Sarga and visarga. Just like Brahmā has created this universe, but that does not mean he is the ultimate cause. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi*-kavaye [SB 1.1.1]. Brahmā got knowledge from Kṛṣṇa how to do it. What is this? [break] ...āṇu-cayānthara-stham. [break] ...tejaḥ, heat, the sun, supplying heat and water, vāri and mṛt, and the earth, combination. These things are coming out. Tejo-vāri-mṛt-vinimayam. How these flowers and trees are coming out? There is sunlight, there is water, and there is earth. And there is Kṛṣṇa also, the seed. Bījo 'ham sarva-bhutanam [Bg 7.10]. So without Kṛṣṇa, nothing can be... [break] ...there is spirit atom? Yaśodānandana: Yes. The arguments are very convincing, especially this last point about how the plants are growing with the help of sunlight, earth, water and... Scientists only have very shallow explanations of how life comes about. Prabhupāda: [break] ...such verse. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). They do not know Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they cannot understand. *Yaśodānandana: In the introduction to The Nectar of Devotion, you have also mentioned nicely that even though there are so many scholars and scientists, they cannot even follow these four principles of no meat*-eating, illicit sex life and everything. They may have so much academic knowledge, but they cannot even control their senses. But by your mercy, even though we are very inexperienced in such knowledge, we are able to control the senses. Prabhupāda: Ajitendriyānām. Without controlling the senses, other things, they are simply professional. It has no value. [break]...yogis, all their methods, they have been described by Prahlāda Mahārāja as a way of their livelihood. Actually, they have no knowledge. They are talking of, as knowledge, but they have no knowledge. This profession is their means of their livelihood. Otherwise, they have no value. Just like a magician. He shows some magic, but that does not mean he has all knowledge. He has taken these magic performances as a means of his livelihood. [break] ...ti ajitendriyānām. Jugglery of words, they are professional. [break] ...that big, big words. Then people engage them: "Oh, here is a big scientist." And if he's not engaged, his talking has no value. By the knowledge he has acquired, he can make some money. That's all. Hṛdayānanda: That's exactly what's happening. Prabhupāda: Yes. And if you ask, they will say, "That we do not know." So why you are taking money? Exactly they say so. Our Svarūpa Dāmodara challenged that professor who came to lecture in California University. He challenged, "If I give you chemicals, can you produce life?" He said, "That I cannot say." Kirtirāja: "We are trying," they said. Prabhupāda: Then why you are, you are bluffing and taking money from us? You do not know. [break] I'll have to go to you, and both of them, I'll have to... The Marwari this... Gujaratis, they use too much oil. Similarly Bengalis, too much oil. Imli, imli water? Indian devotee (1): Yes, and chili. Prabhupāda: And chili. That's all. Indian devotee (1): Actually, Prabhupāda, in Jaipuriya, when they invited us, when we were in Kanpur, all the devotees, for three days we were eating very simple food, but the devotees liked so much. They were eating lots. Prabhupāda: Oh, Jaipuriya invite them? Indian devotee (1): Yeah, Jaipuriya, yeah, when we were in Kanpur. Prabhupāda: Oh, Jaipuriya is that whole name? (land?) Indian devotee (1): Mantura. Prabhupāda: Mantura. He came to our temple. Indian devotee (2): His son came here. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian devotee (2): Yeah. The other day his sons came here. Prabhupāda: Here? Indian devotee (2): Yes, to see you one evening. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...country which is desert practically, but they are luxurious, they are rich. Wife. But they're devotees at the same time. In their country also, they have got many cows. They get sufficient milk. And from that milk, they prepare so many things, milk, ghee and then they get channa. So they know how to prepare so many things from channa, laddus. [break] Indian devotee (1): Laḍḍu. [break] Jayapataka: They're maintaining the rules. Prabhupāda: Yes. All over India, they're not so fallen as the kṣatriyas and brāhmaṇas. (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 2, 1976, Mäyäpur Hṛdayānanda: There is a... There is a problem to some extent, but I don't think it should be exaggerated. Prabhupāda: Hm. Hṛdayānanda: ...that you should be disturbed. It's not that everything is collapsing like that. Prabhupāda: No, no, they should be engaged in some... Devotee: How can you say the situation...? Prabhupāda: ...cottage industry. Cottage industry. Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: And we can manufacture so many things. Hṛdayānanda:: Yes. Prabhupāda: The engagement must be there. Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: It can be organized. The children should be raised Kṛṣṇa devotees. The woman can be engaged. Everyone can be engaged. I can give you suggestion if you can execute. *Hṛdayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we were thinking that it would be nice to have the cities, city*-centers, for the preachers, and those, for example, women, children, it's much easier to maintain them on our farms. That way they can do a little work and produce their own food and... Prabhupāda: Yes, in the farms they can live and do some handwork. Hṛdayānanda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: They won't do it, though, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hṛdayānanda: They must do. Prabhupāda: Then you don't allow. Don't allow that. Don't allow. *Guru*-kṛpā: That's good. Hṛdayānanda: Maintenance is much more simple, easier, less expensive for them on a farm. Prabhupāda: If they do not follow the rules and regulations, then what is the use? Hṛdayānanda: We were thinking that unless someone is a preacher, he has no real business in the city. Let him go have a peaceful life out on the farm. Yaśodānandana: It has been seen that when many householders come together in many of our big communities, because there are so many women and children, there is a great atmosphere of laziness a lot of times. I have seen in Los Angeles and also in many other temples. But when there's a lot of brahmacārīs preaching, it's much more enlivening. Prabhupāda: So now you make some regulation. Otherwise... Attending class? No. Hṛdayānanda: Excuse me? Prabhupāda: They attend class? Gargamuni: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gargamuni: Yeah, they attend aratikas and class because there's no other activity there. Prabhupāda: No, that is also good. Gargamuni: No, they should attend. They are attending. I have... We had nice... Bhakti... Your Guru Mahārāja appearance day, we had nice program. Some people came... *Prabhupāda: Everyone should be engaged. That's all. No idle life. That should be... Karma jyāyo hy akarma*-kṛt. (sic) What is that? Śarīra-yātrāpi te na prasiddhyed akarmanaḥ. Ah. Niyata.... Niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyoḥ' akarmanaḥ, śarīra yātrāpi te. Kṛṣṇa never encouraged laziness, never encouraged. [break] "...people are maintaining some lazy men." Then everything will be spoiled. *Gargamuni: That boy, Mahendra, told me when you, he came back. I met him in Germany. He said that you remarked that our society is not love*-making society. But there are so many of these things are going on, and there is... Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen In Vṛndāvana. Gargamuni: ...a burden for maintaining our temples because there's so many of these women and children with no husbands. *Guru*-kṛpā: Actually, in... Gargamuni: Because they do not take marriage life seriously in this age. *Guru*-kṛpā: In the temples, they engage the brahmacārīs to support the householders. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-kṛpā: The brahmacārīs are supporting the householders. Prabhupāda: How? *Guru*-kṛpā: Well, they are doing the saṅkīrtana and collecting the funds, and the householders are spending. Prabhupāda: [break] ...nature. Uparvata pani. (?) [break] *Jayapatāka: About five brahmacārīs went down there, and they were lifting the karāi on the head, and they were encouraging the men, and the people became... And Guru*-kṛpā was coming and Gargamuni... The people were so happy that the devotees were there. They were working much harder. Prabhupāda: When a man takes his work in his own hand, it is sure to be done. So all of you encourage them. Jayapatāka : Maheśvara commented that although all day we're yelling at the men, when the work is over, they are laughing and saying, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is association, a mass movement. [break] ...our boy, especially boy, in solitary place, then spoiled. Then the māyā is there immediately. That is very dangerous. (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 3, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: I'll have to go to you. And both of them I like, Marwari (indistinct). That is the first point. Similarly Bengalis, too much oil. Imli, imli water, and chili. Devotee (1): Actually Prabhupāda (indistinct) all the devotees. Prabhupāda: Ha. Devotee (1): Three days you are eating reasonable food, that the devotees like so much, they are eating lots. Prabhupāda: Oh, Jaipuria invited. Devotee (1): Yes, Jaipuria, when we were in Kanpur. Prabhupāda: Jaipuria is that old man? *Devotees: (indistinct*-microphone noise) Prabhupāda: Kanpur, which is desert practically, but they're luxurious, they're rich, why... But they're devotees at the same time. In their country (indistinct), they have got many cows. They get sufficient milk. And from that milk they prepare so many, milk, ghee, and that, they get channa. But they know how to prepare so many things, channa, dudh. [break] Yes. Devotee (2): They are maintaining the rules. Prabhupāda: All over India, they are not so fallen as the kṣatriyas and brāhmaṇas. (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 5, 1976, Mäyäpur Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...for getting a big display inside. And I got him to agree to only seventeen point five percent commission, which is very reasonable. *Prabhupāda: All right. Let them send. [break] ...is compared with a rose flower without flavor. Man with education is compared with the koi. (cuckoo bird) Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpam. The bird, koi, is very black, but his sound, sweet, so sweet, everyone likes. Kokilānām svaro*-rūpaṁ vidyā-rūpaṁ ku-rūpanam, nārī-rūpaṁ pati-vrataḥ. And woman's beauty is how she is chaste and devoted to the husband. That is beauty, not personal beauty. Vidyā-rūpaṁ ku-rūpanam. And education is the beauty for the brain. And the beauty of the koi is her sweet voice. Kṣamā-rūpaṁ tapasvinaḥ. And those who are saintly person, they should be simply forgiving. That is their beauty. Haṁsadūta: Forgiving? Pusta Kṛṣṇa: Forgiving. *Prabhupāda: Forgiving. Kṣamā*-rūpaṁ tapasvinaḥ. Did Christ said that "Father, they did not know..."? Haṁsadūta: Yeah. "Forgive them, for they know not what they do. Forgive them for they know not..." *Prabhupāda: Just see how much forgiving. This is saintly character. They're killing, and still forgiving. Kṣamā*-rūpaṁ tapasvinaḥ. Christ is very ideal character, but these Christians, they not dignified him-degraded. So you can get on? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...how to respect food grain. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone should understand, "This food grain is supplied by Kṛṣṇa for our living. How can I disrespect?" This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore we say, prasāda*-sevā, not "prasāda eating." Prasāda-sevā. Prasāda should be accepted as Kṛṣṇa. And our eating means to serve Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa has given. Eat them. Yes. That's all." And at the same time also chant, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is so kind. We are hungry, we are so greedy, and He has given so nice prasādam." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pusta Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes we have difficulty discriminating where the enjoying spirit stops and where the service spirit begins, especially when we take prasādam. *Prabhupāda: No, you should remember it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Then it is all right. Actually everything is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Without Kṛṣṇa's mercy, you cannot live even for a moment. You should always remember. Kṛṣṇa bado dayāmaya. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa badā dayāmaya karibāre jihvā jāya, sva*-prasāda-anna dila bhāi. Hari-śauri: So if one cooks according to one's own tastes, and then offers it to the Deity, that is not so good. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have to learn this now? Hari-śauri: No, I'm just parrotting. Pusta Kṛṣṇa: So is it that everything we do, are we trying to make some mental adjustment, that "We're taking prasādam..."? Prabhupāda: Mental adjustment is nonsense. No mental adj... Actual. Mental adjustment is material. You have to follow the orders of superior. There is no question of mental adjustment. [break] You get all your necessities of life from the earth. Now, you get food, you get drinking water, you get shelter, bamboo. These things will... You get cotton. So what is that slogan? Kapara...? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Roṭi kaparā makān. *Prabhupāda: Ah, everything, yes. Roti is there, kaparā is there, and makān is there. And wherefrom it is coming? Sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī. From earth. Why you are after factories? The mother earth is giving you everything. Therefore he's called mother. Seven mothers... One of the mothers is this earth. Dhenu dhātrī tathā pṛthvi sapteti mātari smṛtāḥ. Dhenu means cow, and dhātrī means nurse. Tathā pṛthvi. Pṛthvi means this land. So they are taking care of the land, nationalists, and killing the other mother, dhenu. A rascal civilization. If you are taking care of mother, you must take care of all mothers. No, they are mad after the land, but killing the other mother, dhenu. This is called rascaldom. [break] ...to give all comforts to the human brother, and they are sending the animal brother to slaughterhouse. What is this Communist? If you are Communist, if you are equal to all your brothers, why you should discriminate? And our communism is that even there is a snake in your home, you must see that he is not starving. This is spiritual communism. Nobody likes snake. Everyone kills. But śāstra says, "Even a snake is there at your home, you must see that he's not starving." This is communism, perfect. What are these he is collecting? Devotee: Eggplant. Prabhupāda: Eggplant? [break] Not of the sun but of the mist, one who is driving away, "Get out!" Now, just see. He is becoming pure. Yāhāṇ kṛṣṇa tāhāṇ nāhi māyāra adhikāra. Immediately there is Kṛṣṇa, there is no more māyā. (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 7, 1976, Mäyäpur Hṛdāyānanda: ...puffed up with knowledge. Prabhupāda: What is their knowledge, nonsense? He has know...? Have they knowledge? Bhagavān: They're trying to prove that sense gratification is bona fide. *Guru*-kṛpā: ...and the explanation of... Prabhupāda: And where is sense gratification? As soon as nature kicks you out, where is your sense gratification? Hṛdāyānanda: It's a relative thing. Actually, compared to the ordinary man, he's much more intelligent. Prabhupāda: What is intelligence? Hṛdāyānanda: He's thinking that "I know so many things, and these other people, they don't know these things. Therefore I'm better than them." Prabhupāda: So the birds and beasts, they know better than you many things. There are many birds and beasts. *Guru*-kṛpā: "They can't... They can't explain it." Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-kṛpā: "They can't explain it." Prabhupāda: You also cannot explain. What is explaining? All nonsense. *Guru*-kṛpā: "Well, I can explain." Prabhupāda: "Perhaps." "Might be." "It was like this and that..." What is that explanation? *Guru*-kṛpā: Well, the common man doesn't challenge that. Prabhupāda: Mean common men are fool. But why we should accept? Bhagavān: If they could really explain it, so many things would not be going wrong. Prabhupāda: Hm? Bhagavān: If they could actually explain it, so many things would not be going wrong. The thing is, their explanation causes more problems. Satsvarūpa: But they say that..., When we say that everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, they say that's also "perhaps, maybe." They don't see... Prabhupāda: No, we have got evidence. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. We have got evidence. Satsvarūpa: As we don't accept theirs, they don't accept ours. Prabhupāda: You don't accept... You don't... Why shall I accept you? You don't accept me, I don't accept you. Why you become authority? *Guru*-kṛpā: Then they say "Finished. Get out." *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, my question is that "Why they become atheists, a little knowledge, so*-called scientists?" Madhudviṣa: They have to become atheists. Prabhupāda: Hm? Madhudviṣa: They have to become atheist. If they don't become atheists, then they can't play their games anymore. The idea of their research finishes as soon as you admit that there is God. But if you say, "There's no God," then they can research. It was explained that... Prabhupāda: They can continue to befool you, that, and take money. And as soon as you don't give them money, there is no research. Then they starve. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We've seen, though, from examples in the Vedic literatures like Viśvakarma and Āyur Vedic medicine, that it's possible to engage in architecture, medicine, such activities, without being atheistic. So it must not simply be that they're scientists, but that they're actually... Bhagavān: Demons. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Demons. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Yaśodānandana: The actual motive is to fill the belly. *Prabhupāda: Moghāśā mogha*-karmanaḥ. Bhagavān: Actually they're envious, because they say that "There is no Supreme Person controlling," but then, on the other hand, they want to become the supreme person controlling. Prabhupāda: They cannot. Bhagavān: So it's just a matter of envy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Who was that demon? He got some benediction from Lord Śiva. [break] Anyone he touched, his head would fall off, but he wanted to use it against Lord Śiva. [break] Prabhupāda: When one is jealous of God, then gradually jealous of everyone. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jealousy. Prabhupāda: Jealousy, yes. *Siddha*-svarūpananda: So then, if I'm jealous of others, it's really just a reflection of my jealousy of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpananda: And if I am angry at others, it's because I'm angry at Kṛṣṇa also. Prabhupāda: Everything begins from Kṛṣṇa. Mattaḥ sarvam pravartate. Where is your other friend? Oh, here he is! *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śiva*-jvara. Prabhupāda: All right. [break] "Jaya Prabhupāda. Haribol." (laughs) They'll not touch unless I give, and they are satisfied, even one grain. That is... They don't want more, that "Give me more." No. But constantly. [break] Make folded hand. Yes. Sometimes he'll press like that, eh, to show me that I am dying. They make quick friends with old men. [break] ...a few katias(?), that is very easy. You assort the katias. You go and place, daytime. And nightime, take a katia and spread anywhere, and you can see. Indian system. Jayapatāka: Cots. Prabhupāda: Cot. Mass of cot. Jayapatāka: With rope. Prabhupāda: With rope. That's all. Small. You can keep fifty, sixty. So keep it in one place. And at night take one, and anywhere you can sleep. Very easy. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Children: Jaya Prabhupāda! *Prabhupāda: Jaya. [break] ...ṣata*-doltena malenatvaṁ na muñcyati.(?) If you take a coal and wash it, one who has... Still black. Jayapatāka: And he does not allow himself to be washed. He never comes to the temple. *Prabhupāda: No. If he... A coal, however you go on with soap and other things, go on washing, it will never become clean. Aṅgarasya śata*-doltena malenatvaṁ na muyati.(?) What is the defect? Why the...? The window is becoming black. Jayapatāka: The lids are... We purchased some new lids yesterday. The lids have been damaged. Therefore the smoke is leaking. Prabhupāda: So why damage cannot be repaired? Jayapatāka: No, we purchased yesterday. They're going to install today. [break] Hariśauri: ...has painted for your books. So he must be fairly good. Prabhupāda: If he has painted for my books, then he should be first class. Jayapatāka: He says he'll finish the one painting in five days. Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter they take five days or ten days. It must be done very nicely. [break] (children yelling, etc.) Hm. That's nice. Madhudviṣa: [break] ...attached to his hair. He will give it up if you tell him. Jaya. Prabhupāda: No, he has to voluntarily do it. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 8, 1976, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: We may differ from other philosophers, but why there should be any difference of philosophy amongst ourselves? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There seems to be some philosophical difference. Prabhupāda: That I am asking. What is that philosophical difference? *Madhudviṣa: One of the points, obvious points, that are there is that many of the boys that are working with Siddha*-svarūpa feel more allegiance to Siddha-svarūpa than they do to you. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Madhudviṣa: And they distribute his books instead of your books on the street. Which is a fact. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Which is a lie. Madhudviṣa: Which is a fact. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Why do you do like that? Why do you say like that? Madhudviṣa: Because I have seen it in New Zealand. I have been there myself. Prabhupāda: No, no, if he denies that... *Siddha*-svarūpa: You know that they distribute Prabhupāda's books, but they can't give them away as cheaply, that's all. Madhudviṣa: Back to Godhead is very cheap. It is twelve cents a piece. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They give those away. They give those away. Madhudviṣa: It is twelve cents a piece. You cannot say that. *Siddha*-svarūpa: But anyway... *Jayatīrtha: One of Siddha*-svarūpa's men bought some Bhagavad-gītās from us in Los Angeles, several cases, so they are distributing Prabhupāda's books at least as well along with others. Prabhupāda: No, I think... *Siddha*-svarūpa: I just bought five thousand dollars' worth of Bhagavad-gītās. Madhudviṣa: That's very good. *Siddha*-svarūpa: What is it for? Madhudviṣa: And they give them away. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Thank you. Thank you, God. Prabhupāda: No, no, even giving them away, what is the wrong? Madhudviṣa: Well, you said we should not give the books away. You said we should sell these books. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) No, no, he has purchased. He has purchased. Then if you purchase from me and if you give free to others, so what is my loss? Madhudviṣa: No, there is no loss. *Siddha*-svarūpa: I'm not giving away his books. Prabhupāda: No, no, even if he gives away, this is not a fault, ou see? Suppose there are... In South Africa many Indians are purchasing our books and giving to the library. So somebody will read it. So that is not a fault. If I purchase from you and give it, distribute it free to somebody else, that is not wrong thing. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I don't think that there's any difference in philosophical understanding or anything. I think just the basic point that there's different ways of working, in a sense, and I won't... Prabhupāda: So that should be adjusted, because we have to work. If we make differences amongst ourselves, then how work will... *Guru*-kṛpā: I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the difference is that we are willing to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to your instructions, but... Prabhupāda: That should... That is the... *Guru*-kṛpā: But Siddha, they have their own way they think they can influence people to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is more or less not fully presenting Kṛṣṇa consciousness in a way of complete surrender. In other words, they are keeping hairs and are not full-time devotees, such as we are, to spread it all over the world. *Siddha*-svarūpa: You mean they're not surrendered to you personally, Guru-kṛpā. It means they're not working with you personally. Unless somebody accepts you or this person or that person... *Guru*-kṛpā: I'm not... No one accepts me. *Siddha*-svarūpa: ...then you get upset. Prabhupāda: No, I don't wish to agitate your mind. I want that if there is any difference, that should be adjusted, and we must preach combinedly. That is my point. *Siddha*-svarūpa: There is no... As far as... Well, you have to judge yourself. I can't... As far as I'm concerned, I try to get people to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and distribute prasādam, and as far as possible distribute books freely or for charge. *Guru*-kṛpā: But the chanting is without surrender to the spiritual master. *Siddha*-svarūpa: If I'm trying to get people to chant, that's all I can do. And if that will purify them, then surrender will come. How can I force someone to surrender? Prabhupāda: No, no, what do you mean by surrender? *Guru*-kṛpā: I mean that... Prabhupāda: Not that everywhere you are preaching, you are expected all of them will be surrendered immediately. That is not expected. Suppose you are preaching amongst hundreds and thousands of men. So it is not expected that all of them will be immediately surrendered. Is it possible? Devotees: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Madhudviṣa: The point is that many of the men that are following the principles strictly, due to his influence have gone away and have slackened their principles. And that is a fact. Like getting up early for maṅgala ārati. That is not stressed so much. And cutting of the hair. That is not stressed so much. *Siddha*-svarūpa: How do you know these things? You have never lived with me, nor have you ever heard a lecture I have given. Madhudviṣa: I have experienced the devotees who have been influenced by you. Prabhupāda: Anyway, whatever is done is done. Now let us make some adjustment (chuckles) and work combinedly. That is my proposal. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the problem is that to work combinedly, they think that that means that I surrender to them and I do everything as they say; otherwise I am not surrendering. So as far as I am concerned, I cannot work with them. There is no possibility of that, and yet I don't want to make trouble with them, but I have to try to work as best as I can. But there is no way that I'm going to be able to be organized and controlled by them. People who've tried to control me before are now spiritually dead and gone, and I'm not going to put myself under the protection of any of these boys who consider themselves to be great sannyāsīs or whatever, and it's just not possible for me to do it. I've tried it before. So I have to try to work as best as I can, not get in their way, and follow your instructions as best as possible, getting people to chant, following the principles myself. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: May I ask a question? What is your feeling about the GBC? *Siddha*-svarūpa: I don't know anything about it, and I don't really care about organizing it. I don't care about... Prabhupāda: So why don't you become a GBC and... *Siddha*-svarūpa: Because I can't work... There's no way. Prabhupāda: No... *Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is one point, that each of us thinks that our understanding of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only way. We must realize that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is much bigger, much, much bigger than our only concept that "This is bona fide, and this is the only way Prabhupāda wants it." We must appreciate that Prabhupāda is approving all of these ways, including how Siddha*-svarūpa Mahārāja is preaching, and we must be more tolerant and accept each other. This is not un-bona fide. I've read his books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda... Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, this is it. You are bringing in... Madhudviṣa: Prabhupāda, you have said that in the tree, the Caitanya tree, there is many branches, but they all have to have the same taste. Atreya Ṛṣi: Well, he has the taste. Madhudviṣa: So therefore the essence of the philosophy must be there. And you have also said that the meaning of disciple means discipline, so the devotees have to be trained certain disciplines in their devotional life. *Prabhupāda: Discipline... Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must... That should be uniform. Otherwise, śiṣya... Śiṣya, the word śiṣya, it comes from the root, verb, śās*-dhātu. Śās. Śās means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. Śāstra. Śāstra means weapon, and śāstra, scripture, and sisya... These things have come from the one root śās-dhātu. So śās-dhātu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that "Obedience is the first law of discipline," or something. They say, "Obedience is the first law of discipline"? So I am right? "Obedience is..."? That is the... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's more or less what it is. Prabhupāda: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. "Obedience is the first law of discipline." So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. Disciple means one who follows the discipline. So... *Siddha*-svarūpa: So there is no disagreement with that. I have no disagreement. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the point. That is... *Siddha*-svarūpa: But I consider that discipline and the person being disciplined must be voluntary. He must voluntarily put himself under someone's discipline. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... Accepting spiritual master means voluntarily accepting somebody to rule him. There is no question... I have no power to rule over you unless you voluntarily surrender. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I am Indian. Why, you Americans, you should obey me? You have done it voluntarily. Yes. So, (chuckles) in India they appreciate me only on this point, that I am Indian; *how I am controlling so many Americans? That is their appreciation. (laughter) So this acceptance of guru means voluntarily surrender. Yes. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. The instruction is there in the... They were friends, Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna. From material point of view, they are equal. He is also belonging to the royal family, he is also belonging to the royal family, and they are cousin brothers, equal footing, friend. But still, Arjuna said, "Now there is no solution. I become Your disciple." Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam: "I surrender." And this is sisya, surrender. And then lessons on Bhagavad*-gītā began. So we have to surrender voluntarily; otherwise discipline cannot be implemented. That is wanted. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam. *Guru*-kṛpā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it mentions in The Nectar of Devotion that in the viddhi-mārga there are many things we don't want to do but we must do in order to make advancement. Prabhupāda: No, that is also modern government, democracy. I do not want to do something, but the Parliament pass the laws. We have to do, even I do not like. That is discipline. Just like C. R. Das. C. R. Das was one of the prominent member of Indian Congress. So he was earning in those days, fifty years ago, fifty thousand rupees per month. It is twenty times now increased. Fifty years before he was... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nowadays ten lakhs per month. *Prabhupāda: At least five lakhs he was earning. So the Congress resolution was that "noncooperation," so "Boycott British court. We are not going on." So resolution that everyone should give up practice of law in the British court. Resolution. So C. R. Das did not like that idea. He said that "I am earning fifty thousand. I can give the whole amount for Congress propaganda. Why you are asking me to give up this practice?" So the resolution was, "No, we should noncooperate. We don't want money. We should noncooperate." So when... He fought in the meeting that "This should be withdrawn." So it was not withdrawn. Then he resigned. Then he resigned. He became practically poverty*-stricken, because he was earning fifty thousand rupees per month, and he had no practice, and he was not keeping any money in the bank. When he resigned, then some of his friend, Muhammad Ali... He was also one of the prominent members. He asked, "Mr. Das, what is your bank balance?" So he replied, "I do not know what is my bank balance, but I know I am debtor to the bank by two lakhs." The bank was giving him credit, so this was his position. So my point is that when the... He fought his best that "This resolution should be withdrawn, boycott of British court," but it was not done. But although he was very strong protester, still he had to do it. This is modern democracy. If the majority votes is in favor of something, even if I do not like it, I'll have to accept it. That is, of course, the so-called democracy. That..., we do not accept that. Our obedience is to the spiritual master. So in this way we should... If there is any misunderstanding, this should be adjusted and we should work wholeheartedly, because our responsibility is very great. We are trying to contribute something to the whole world. It is not a fashion. It is not a fashion. The whole world is suffering for want of God consciousness, so we are trying to give it to the world, God consciousness, in a systematic way, so that they may be highly benefited. So this is the purpose, but if there is some misunderstanding... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the actual disagreement? Prabhupāda: No, disagreement in the matter of process. You are thinking this way; he is thinking that way. That is the difference. Otherwise he is also eager to push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness; you are also. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The thing is, both of them are claiming that you are thinking their way. *Siddha*-svarūpa: No, I can't... Prabhupāda: Now that should be adjusted now. I shall give my verdict which is my way. Then you have to accept. *Siddha*-svarūpa: My method is... Prabhupāda: Not your way, not his way. Let me understand what is the way you are trying to follow, what is the way he is trying to follow. Now I shall give my verdict, that "This is the right way." Yaśodānandana: Jaya Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's it. That is the best thing. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So I am offensive, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You are agreeable to that? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then thank you, no more talk now. We shall talk later. [break] Brahmānanda: He should... He should cook? Prabhupāda: : I do not know. What is the harm? But he does not like... Child: Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Hm. Bhāvānanda: That short man we passed, Prabhupāda, on the way, coming in? Prabhupāda: With so much bunch of hair. Who are these men? Oh, they're working. Bhāvānanda: They're paṇḍal... Jayapatāka: They are making a paṇḍal. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Black and white frame. *Guru*-kṛpā: Salt and pepper. Prabhupāda: Actually our, this society is united nations. And if we become disunited, then it is very difficult to adjust. [break] Yes. Linguist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hindi also? Prabhupāda: I don't know. [break] Yaśodānandana: Parikrama Prabhupāda: Parikrama? Yaśodānandana: Acyutānanda Mahārāja just went to Calcutta to arrange everything. Prabhupāda: What is to arrange in Calcutta? Yaśodānandana: Well, all the devotees are coming, and they will be going to Śantipur, and when they come back, they will... We're working a schedule to take all the devotees to the various parikrama spots. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. I mean to say, if we make a procession, then first of all... That is my suggestion. Make the devotees first, chanting, all the devotees. And then the Deity, carrying. And then my carriage, my car, and then all the buses. So devotees who become tired, they can sit down in the bus and again go on. And keep one big pot of halavā so that others may be distributed, and the devotees, when they are hungry, they can also eat. In this way make. How do you like this arrangement? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll do it. Hariśauri: I think you'll need more than one pot of halavā. Pusta Kṛṣṇa: I think we'll make devotees on the way. Prabhupāda: And so long the festival goes on, we shall keep always ready one big pot of halavā. Anyone comes, give him this. Anyone comes to visit. While going, take in a leaf, what is called, leaf cup. Give him halavā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone on the way. Prabhupāda: Everyone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's up and down this road. Prabhupāda: No. No, no. Anyone who comes within the temple... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I mean... *Guru*-kṛpā: The devotees, and then the Deities, your private car... Prabhupāda: But that is procession. In the temple... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Generally, cup with prasādam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone should be given prasādam. Jaya. (kīrtana as Prabhupāda approaches temple) (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 9, 1976, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: ...and these are.... You are being plundered. They are very expert in the plunder. But I thought, "Some Indians will help. He is also 'big belly,' you. It is simply in my eyes. I am the only fool." I criticize like that. Just see how much money they have taken. One day, they are charging ten rupees, and fifty men working, so all spoiled. This is going on all over. Baro baro baṅgole baro baro peṭ, lanka dingate mata kara het. (?) Hm? [break] (Bengali) He did not take the cart? Jayapatāka: I took a jeep also. Prabhupāda: No, no. Jayapatāka: The card. I got your passbook and deposit book. Prabhupāda: Baro baro pet. How you are being looted. Just see. Farce. They are making farce and taking money. Jayapatāka: Who? Prabhupāda: These rascals. Don't you see? Jayapatāka: This was done since I left. Prabhupāda: I told that this is being farce, and somebody told me you have guaranteed. And the other day, when I was walking, I said, "This is going to be farce," and somebody told me, "They have guaranteed." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Around the kuṇḍa, around the tank, putting up there, paṇḍal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The same man? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Where is Jayapatāka? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatāka Mahārāja. [break] ...almost sixty years. Prabhupāda: Sixty years, they could not do any of these books. And still they are envious. Within sixty years they could not attract any foreign student or any book published. And still, they are proud. They have got all the blessings of Bhaktisiddhānta. Yaśodānandana: They cannot even attract Indian students. Prabhupāda: Just see, how black snakes they are. Yaśodānandana: They do pretty good with old widows, however. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Getting a lot of flowers here, it seems. Prabhupāda: Yes. There must be always all full of flowers. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very many flowers coming. Prabhupāda: They are maintaining big, big monkey. No matta het.(?) That... Jayapatāka: Maintaining. Prabhupāda: That... Jayapatāka: Maintaining Hanuman. Prabhupāda: What they are doing? Jayapatāka: Well, they are feeling.... [break] Prabhupāda: ...if there is water. And if there is lowland, the whole water will go to the lowland. And that means you have two or three canals, there will be no more flood. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you need the land to make the canals. Prabhupāda: That's it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Emergency yajña. Prabhupāda: Yes. You convince him like that. Yaśodānandana: This is very clever. Prabhupāda: And factually we have to do that in order to check the flood. Make scheme like Europeans and Americans. Why you are thinking in terms of Indian plan? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's been here a long time, Prabhupāda. (laughter) He's thinking like a... Prabhupāda: But I am born here. I have no Indian plan. My plans are all American. Yaśodānandana: Jaya Prabhupāda! *Guru*-krpa: Your plans are Kṛṣṇa's plans, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. I planned that "I must go to America." Yes. That was the reason. Otherwise, generally they go to London. I did not go to London. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were talking about that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were just talking about that last night, that generally someone in Indian would think, "Let me go to London," but you thought, "Let me go to..." Prabhupāda: No. I was simply dreaming, "How to go to New York?" Actually I thought. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The biggest. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was scheming, "Whether I shall go this way, through Tokyo, Japan, or that way? Which way is cheaper?" That was my plan. And I was targeting to New York always. Sometimes I was dreaming that I have come to New York. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Bengali ) (aside:) We cannot accept food from the demons. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...supplied at least nice food. [break] You are the first time here? Indian man (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: How do you like? Indian man (1): Very nice. Prabhupāda: [break] ...purify the whole atmosphere. [break] ...world we are all condemned. Still, Kṛṣṇa has given so many facilities. There is a Bengali proverb. Bondhīr astekur bhaga.(?) Ast kur(?) means the place of garbage. If a aristocrat asks that "You have to live in my garbage place," "Oh, that is also better." Similarly, Kṛṣṇa.... This is garbage. This material world is garbage. Still, we live so comfortably. Now just imagine what is His dhāma. It is the garbage tank. Still so nice. And just think what is His real place, Goloka Vṛndāvana. [break] Jayapatāka: ...gave us a very good record, very clean. Prabhupāda: Purest in the world. Jayapatāka: Officially, he said, the government is very eager to always keep an eye on your activities, but so far, you have not had any bad record. Therefore the government is favorable. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, how Indira Gandhi could see me? Even in the midst of crisis she gave me time. She has got very impression. She said that "I have all faith in you, but because I am afraid of the these Americans..." Jayapatāka: We understand how important it is to keep all our dealings in the open. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes, very, very careful. Jayapatāka: Watching the dangers. Prabhupāda: We have got good reputation all over the world. The German rascals, they wanted to minimize our value, but he failed, that police officer. Haṁsadūta: If the government sanctions for acquiring this land, then we won't have any trouble in Hyderabad getting that land either. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Have to give it. Prabhupāda: [break] ...take it rightly. Then we'll lay down the foundation. Something, anything. *Madhudviṣa: The subjects that we're going to be discussing today in the GBC meeting is about the role of sannyāsī and brahmacārī and gṛhastha in ISKCON. And in the Eighteenth Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā, in one of your purports, you say that a sannyāsī should never discourage a young man from becoming, from getting married. But on the other hand, we have understood that a sannyāsī should encourage young men to remain brahmacārī. So it seems to me like there's some kind of a... *Prabhupāda: According to time, circumstances. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam: "Always be engaged in your prescribed work." And, at last, He says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Now we have to adjust. That is not contradiction. That is suitable to the time and circumstance. Karma is also recommended in the Vedas. Karma-kāṇḍa. There are three divisions: karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kaṇḍa and upāsanā-kāṇḍa. Trayi. Therefore Veda is known as, what is called, trio. The trio word has come from "trayi." *Madhudviṣa: You have also said, regarding that, that Kṛṣṇa gives us the conclusion of the those three processes in the Bhagavad*-gītā, that karma is concluded, yat karoṣi yad aśnāsi [Bg. 9.27], and jñāna is concluded, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19], and yoga is concluded yoginām api sarveṣām [Bg. 6.47]. So is there some conclusive..., like Kṛṣṇa says, concluding, sarva-dharmān parityajya. Is there some conc...? Prabhupāda: That is the real end. You have to become the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. Either you go through karma or jñāna or yoga, it doesn't matter. The ultimate aim is how to reach Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. [break] Arjuna achieved the favor of Kṛṣṇa by fighting, by killing. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 10, 1976, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: ...telling that too much stricture on the gṛhasthas may cause some disturbance. Eh? Madhudviṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So I think the gṛhastha themselves should form a small committee and define what they will do, instead of forcing something, because in this age, nobody can follow strictly all the stricture in the śāstras. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that we formulated anything for them to do. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Any of our resolutions, it doesn't say anything about what they should do. It simply says what should, how our society should be run, our temples. It doesn't state anything about how the gṛhasthas should live. Prabhupāda: No... What? What, was your pro...? Madhudviṣa: Well, last evening we were saying that sex life according to the regulative principles means sex life only when the guru tells the gṛhastha to have sex life. And what I said last night is that if that is the case, then there would be no more gṛhasthas in the society. They will not... They will not become gṛhasthas. Prabhupāda: Be practical. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that point they can discuss amongst themselves, but that doesn't have anything to do with our resolutions. Right? Devotee: Yeah. This is the idea. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In other words, our resolutions are on another point, that as far as when they, when they have sex life and when they don't, they should have a committee and they can decide that. But... Resolutions we passed have nothing to do with that. Our resolutions had to do with if someone is not to be supported by the movement, things like this. Those things are a different matter. The actual way the gṛhasthas should live, that is their... They should decide that by committee. Yaṣodānandana: There now should be a proposition that before they enter the gṛhastha āśrama, they should have a means of supporting themselves besides the living off the society. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was said... Yaṣodānandana: They would... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those things, the GBC made a resolution... Madhudviṣa: The resolutions that we made were wrong in that regard. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh? Madhudviṣa: The resolutions that we made were wrong. Prabhupāda rectified us. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In what regard? Madhudviṣa: We made a resolution that if a householder gets married, then he has to take care of his wife for the rest of his life till he takes sannyāsa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, Prabhupāda corrected that. Madhudviṣa: Yeah. So that resolution was wrong. And also the resolution about the women and the children coming to the temple, not accepting them, that was also wrong. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So now what's the point? Madhudviṣa: So now they're rectified. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So now what is the point? Madhudviṣa: I'm just saying that we should have a more practical understanding of this, of our attitude towards the whole situation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why Prabhupāda corrected us. Prabhupāda: So I think it may be further decided. Make a small committee of three or four gṛhasthas, and you define how you live. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, what about their relationship with the society? This point was to... I don't understand why that is being avoided. In other words, how they should live, that they should have a committee for, but the fact that the society cannot support them, that is not for them to decide. That is for the GBC to decide. That is my point. Yaṣodānandana: I think that point, that's clear. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As far as their living conditions, so let them have a committee. Madhudviṣa: Yeah. I agree with that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Then there's no disagreement. As long as you say we should not disclaim all of our resolutions. Madhudviṣa: No, no, no, no. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, then it's all right. Jayapatāka: Śrīla Prabhupāda is so merciful that if it comes to a point where it means that a person is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness or in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I think Prabhupāda'd rather support them and let them be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's why you have to see whether they stay in the society. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Dragging us back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: When this paṇḍal is going to be filled up? Bhavānanda: The exhibits should be arriving today with the devotees, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Who are these men? Bhavānanda: They are the paṇḍal workers. Prabhupāda: Paṇḍal work... [break] Always, what is called...? Communism. They say, whole world, "We are Communists," "We are capitalists," "We are socialists," and "We are nonviolent," "We are violent." Madhudviṣa: Dualism. Prabhupāda: Eh? Madhudviṣa: Dualism? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not dualism. How many isms, nobody knows. But... What is called? Faction. Faction. Everyone is divided from the other. Madhudviṣa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So we should not bring that attitude in our society. That is my request. *Guru*-kṛpā: Envious. They're all envious. Prabhupāda: That you should not do. And that unity is possible with, only when harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21] is there constantly. Otherwise, it will be factional. What do you call? Factional is the right word? Haṁsadūta: Yes, yes. Factional. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What about the distinction between the enjoying spirit and the renouncing spirit? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For example, there is, as we have been discussing, there is between the brahmacārīs and the gṛhasthas... The brahmacārīs have this tendency*-at least, this is the attitude-towards renunciation. And so far we can see, a brahmacārī who gives up his brahmacārī life means he's more inclined towards the enjoying spirit, at least to some extent. So how do we deal with this situation? Prabhupāda: You can... If you want to enjoy, who can stop you? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we cannot..., we cannot support it. We cannot support his enjoyment. That he should take on his own self to do. Prabhupāda: They... According to different position and attitude, the four āśramas are there: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. This means that everyone is not on the equal platform. Different platform. But the whole idea is how to give up the propensity of enjoyment. That is wanted. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We find in the *Śrīmad Bhāgavatam* that Śukadeva Gosvāmī would approach the householders in the morning just so long as to give them a little bit of spiritual knowledge, and he would accept the offering of some milk. So the sannyāsīs and renunciates, generally, they wouldn't very much relish the association of householders because of this enjoying spirit and the association that it entails. So we're finding also within our society that those who are inclined towards remaining celibate, they're finding the association of persons even within our movement who have this enjoying spirit to be somewhat detrimental to their own spiritual life. *Guru*-kṛpā: Gṛhe thāko vanete thāko... Prabhupāda: Then. What is your proposal? They should go away? Madhudviṣa: Unless there is association, then they will never become purified. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who says they won't asso...? What is this discussion? This is not... Madhudviṣa: It's not a resolution. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is not a good discussion either. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, but this is basically the problem. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's not the problem, because everyone comes together in a temple for kīrtana, for lectures, for prasādam. These things are common activities. There's no question that we should not have common activities between all the āśramas. These are the common ac... But for living, there must be separate arrangement. Prabhupāda: Now, even in the temple, you were complaining, the husband and wife were talking. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That's living. That means living. That is not... They're not talking *Śrīmad Bhāgavatam*. Prabhupāda: That... Bhavānanda: Separate woman's house, separate man's house. Prabhupāda: That is our Indian system. Up to the family they have got separate house for men, separate house for women, separate house for kitchen, separate house for toilet. Bhavānanda: Very nice. Compound. Prabhupāda: In Calcutta, we have seen our big, big Mullik family, separate house. Bhavānanda: One brāhmaṇa village, Sharmapur, I went to. They all lived like that. They had five houses in a compound. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. A woman's house, nobody can go. Bahir bāri bhitara bāri. Bāhir bāri. Bāhir. Who can understand Bengali? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bāhir? "Outside," isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bāhir bāri. Bhitar bāri. Then pūjār bāri. Rāmnā bāri. Jayapatāka: Kitchen. Prabhupāda: Ah, kitchen. Not that within the apartment, all bāris. This is European invention. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bāri? Prabhupāda: Bāri means house. In Gujarat they say wādi. Wādi. Bhāgavata: Wādi, bhajan wādi. Prabhupāda: It is the same thing, bāri. In Maharashtra also, they say. Bhāgavata: About attraction and aversion... There's... Prabhupāda: Hm? Attraction? Bhāgavata: ...a point about attraction and aversion, that there's a complaint that sometimes there's too much aversion on the part of the brahmacārīs. But isn't that not a quality, to a point a brahmacārī should have a healthy contempt for sense gratification? Prabhupāda: I do not follow. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's saying that sometimes the brahmacārīs, even the sannyāsīs, they may have a very strong aversion towards association with women and/or householder life, things of this nature. And sometimes the gṛhasthas will criticize the sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs that "This is fanaticism," or it's, to the other end, "It's just as bad as the enjoying spirit, because you're meditating on the same thing, but only you're averse to it." So what is the...? Bhāgavata dāsa's question is "What is the condition?" Is it better to be neutral or to be averse? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Neutral. *Prabhupāda: These are all fanaticism. Real unity is in advancing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva... In Kali*-yuga, you cannot strictly follow, neither I can strictly follow. If I criticize you, if you criticize me, then we go far away from our real life of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So is it correct to say that if we're not Kṛṣṇa conscious, then if it's not the gṛhastha problem, it would be some other problem? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We'll find something or another to absorb our time with besides Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No, you should always remember that either gṛhastha or brahmacārī or sannyāsī, nobody can strictly follow all the rules and regulations of them. In the Kali*-yuga it is not possible. So if I find simply fault with you, and if you find fault with me, then it will be factional, and our real business will be hampered. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that hari-nāma, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, should be very rigidly performed, which is common for everyone: gṛhastha, vānaprastha or sannyāsī. They should always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Then everything will be adjusted. Otherwise it is impossible to advance. We shall be complicated with the details only. This is called niyamāgrahaḥ. I think I have explained. Madhudviṣa: In the *Nectar of Instruction*. *Prabhupāda: Niyamagrahaḥ is not good. Niyama means regulative principles. And niyama-āgrahaḥ is niyamāgrahaḥ. Āgrahaḥ means not to accept. And niyama-āgraha. Āgraha means only eager to follow the regulative principles, but no advancement spiritually. Both of them are called niyamāgrahaḥ. So the basic principle is that niyamāgrahaḥ is not recommended. The real business is that.... And if we advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, simple method, chanting twenty*-four hours, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31], then things will be automatically adjusted. You cannot find in Kali-yuga everything is being done very correctly, to the point. That is very difficult. Just like our poet, Allen Ginsberg. He was always accusing me, "Swamijī, you are very conservative and strict." Actually, I told him that "I am never strict, neither I am conservative. If I become conservative, then I cannot live here for a moment. So I'm not at all conservative." (laughter) I was cooking, and I saw in the, what is called, refrigerator of Yeargen, Yeargon? What is his...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. (sic:) Jergen. That boy you were staying with. Prabhupāda: Ah, ah! I saw he kept some pieces of meat for his cat. So still, I kept my things in that refrigerator. What can be done? I had no place at that time. Jaya. [break] ...will be little earlier? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. The walk should be earlier. Prabhupāda: Quarter to six. And class beginning quarter to seven. Because the sun is rising earlier. Madhudviṣa: It's getting warmer. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. The foodstuff is supplied very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it's very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this should be maintained. Thank you very much. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sufficient, ample, and very tasteful... Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ... nutritious. This Santilal is very much accustomed to cooking for devotees, because when Gargamuni was in Calcutta for nearly two years, he was the chief cook there. So he knows just how to, how not to... Prabhupāda: So he cannot give an equal good cook here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, maybe he will be kept here. Bhavānanda: He's staying. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think, personally, he should... *Guru*-kṛpā: He's coming on the buses with Gargamuni. Bhavānanda: He's going... Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Variety means beauty. Jayapatāka: We were going to bring from New York, I think. Prabhupāda: Madhudviṣa Mahārāja will bring next year. Is it very expensive? *Guru*-kṛpā: No, it's just... Madhudviṣa: No, but the computer. You need one computer to run it. Prabhupāda: Oh. So that is very costly. Jayapatāka: Computers are very cheap nowadays. Madhudviṣa: Yeah, it's very expensive. Actually the electricity would be very expensive, the bill, which would probably be paid by Mahatva(?). (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, if it is very expensive, don't do it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, an escalator is also expensive. If we're going to worry about expense, then... I think we should wait until we get that big building, the temple, because then, if you put it up there, it can be seen... Madhudviṣa: In Calcutta. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in Calcutta. But this is not very high. [break] Devotee (1): ...ignorance, ignorance. Prabhupāda: No, those who are inclined, they can become. Jnanam vijñānam āstikyam. Devotee (1): Brahma karma... *Prabhupāda: So (Hindi or Bengali) śūdra*-paricaryātmākaṁ kāryam. They should be engaged in serving. But sva-karmana tam abhyarcya [Bg. 18.46]. Everyone should be engaged in the service of the Lord. That is perfection. *Devotee (1): Abhyāse samārtho 'si mat*-karma-paramo bhava. So... Prabhupāda: Ah. Mat karma paramo... We have got service for everyone. (Bengali) The modern civilization is everyone is sent for academic education. That is mistake, waste of time. Devotee (1): (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 11, 1976, Mäyäpur *Prabhupāda: ...take shelter at the lotus feet of Nitāi. Nitāi*-pāda-kamala, koṭi candra suśītala. Because the shelter is so cool, a thousand times cooler than the moon.... Where is that..., Yaśomatīnandana? He is not here? Yesterday he met Mādhava Mahārāja. So he had some talks. (chuckles) In that talk he mentioned that "Your Guru Mahārāja was previously a businessman, so.... And we are, from our childhood, we are Vaiṣṇava. So therefore he is doing business and getting money." Devotees: Whew. Harikeśa: Kick him on the face. *Prabhupāda: (chuckles) No, don't say like that. But the thing is.... Business means.... Business means four things. Yes, we are businessman. I was student of economics. I know how to do business, and the business principle means you require four things: land, labor, capital, organization. So, ordinary man cannot do that. Otherwise, everyone would have done some business and become millionaires. But it requires these four things: land, labor, organization, and capital. So where you have got these? You have neither land, neither capital, neither place. So how you can do business? I am doing business because I have got all these things. I went to America*-land. Then I worked-labor. Then I earned some capital, and I have got brain how to do it. (to Lokanātha) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So why you are becoming paramahaṁsa? This is paramahaṁsa dress. Lokanātha: Yeah, I have to dye it today. Prabhupāda: Don't become paramahaṁsa immediately. Paramahaṁsa is the last stage of sannyāsa. First stage is kuticaka. Second stage is parivrājakācārya. Third stage is.... No, first stage is kuticaka. Then second stage is bahudaka, bahudaka. And third stage is parivrājakācārya, and fourth stage is paramahaṁsa. Therefore paramahaṁsa stage is the topmost. Lokanātha: They have got white? Do they wear white? Prabhupāda: They are not under any rule and regulation, paramahaṁsa. Paramahaṁsa means, just like mlecchas and yavanas, they are not under any rules and regulation. Similarly, a paramahaṁsa is also not under any rules and regulation. He can do whatever he likes. Śāstra is not meant for him. Avadhūta. He is not in the material world, mahābhāva. So that is the last stage of sannyāsa. Kuṭicaka means when from family life, vānaprastha, and then one takes sannyāsa, that is kuṭicaka. Kuṭicaka means he does not remain at home but goes outside home, outside the village area and makes a kuti, cottage, and lives there. But because he is not accustomed to beg, from his house some foodstuff is sent. Just like you are sending to that Sharma some food? This is kuṭicaka. But after some time, when he's little experienced, then he goes from door to door: "Give me a piece of bread." Madhukārī. Madhukāra. Madhukāra means the bee, honeybee. What is called? Harikeśa: Bumblebee. Prabhupāda: Bumblebee. He collects little honey here, little honey there, wherever.... And not one place so much honey. So this is called bahudaka. Not to collect lump sum, food, from anywhere. To any gṛhastha a sannyāsī can go: "Please give me a little piece of bread." So that is not difficult. "All right, take." Because many sannyāsī may come, so it is not burden, little piece. So as soon as it is sufficient piece, that's all. It is called bahudaka. Then, when he's further experienced, then preaching country to country, place to place, go on preaching. That is parivrājakācārya. And when he has sufficiently preached, then he can sit down anywhere. That is paramahaṁsa. [break] ...system. In every big temple there is shenai. All through the year, morning, night, not only temple, rich man's house. And they are so nice player that early in the morning, people, the resident, will rise by hearing the shenai. And at night they will go to bed and sleep hearing the shenai. Jayapatāka: Was that early in morning or late at night? Prabhupāda: No, other time also. But this time especially. Lokanātha: They also used to keep cock, hens and the cock. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] What is called? Alarm bell. Cocks. "Ka*-ka-ka: Get up please." "Ka-ka-ka." Nature's alarm. *Guru*-kṛpā: Sometimes they crow, though, at twelve o'clock at night. Prabhupāda: Just to cheat you because you sleep more. (laughter) Because you sleep more, to cheat you. You do not rise early in the morning; therefore they are engaged sometimes to cheat you. [break] ...found a very nice house in London. Jayatīrtha is going to take the credit of purchasing it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, we found a very nice house in London, and you're going to get the credit for purchasing it. Just see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: Well, if Kṛṣṇa desires. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything Kṛṣṇa does, but one takes credit. That's it. Jayatīrtha: We think that we're the doer, but actually Kṛṣṇa is the doer. Prabhupāda: Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's been a feeling that all year their hard work has all become worthwhile simply by coming here. *Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. Make it more.... Therefore I wanted first of all this house, not the temple, because where they'll stay? They'll come to the temple. Where they will stay? If you get staying place, then you can act your brain and improve. And if you are harassed*-no place-then brain will not work. Therefore I wanted first of all the residential place. And they criticize me, "Oh, you did not construct temple first." And a temple of the devotees is first, our temple. Then God. God will come if there are devotees. Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyantī mad-bhaktāḥ. Unless there is devotee, where is God? God is not a stone. Any stone is God? Unless there is devotees, there's no God. Therefore, without devotee: the idol, this is idol worship. That is not worship. Therefore they cannot understand what is the form, what is the distinction between form of the Lord and idol. They do not know how to worship in devotion. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. They are thinking, "It is stone, and God is remaining here, stone. He will never speak," because they are not devotee. If you become devotee.... Just like Sākṣī Gopāla. For devotee He went to give witness, "Yes, I'll walk." That is God. And if you are not devotee, how you can expect the stone statue is walking? You have read that Sākṣī Gopāla? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla was saying that "You are asking Me to go to give witness. Do you think a statue can go?" So he is devotee. He said, "Yes, if statue can speak, he can go also." So he had firm faith. So Kṛṣṇa had pledged him, "Yes, I'll go." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you also have that firm faith, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, without firm faith there is no beginning of God worship. Devotee: Niṣṭhā. Prabhupāda: Do you not read this? Jayatīrtha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Śraddhā, this faith, means so strong faith that one will know it perfectly well that simply by worshiping Kṛṣṇa, everything is there. That is the beginning of faith. Otherwise there is no faith. And without faith there is no beginning. Ādau śraddhā. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu*-saṅgaḥ [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. If you have got that firm faith, then next stage is to live with, to deal with devotees. Then the faith will increase because by seeing their behavior your faith will be increased. Then bhajana kriya. Wherefrom this shenai was...? Sudāmā: Vaikuṇṭhanātha temple. Prabhupāda: Eh? Sudama: Originally he came from the Vaikuṇṭhanātha temple, Calcutta. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's staying up in that... Bhāvānanda: They're in the front. Prabhupāda: They are expert in Madras. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, when we went to Nellore, remember they were greeting you each time with shenai. Prabhupāda: Yes. Very good. Pañcadravida: Very expert in South India. Prabhupāda: You can engage a company, three, four men, for all the year. Jayapatāka: So they should.... Before maṅgala ārati they should begin playing. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes, in Madras. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the idea behind this shenai*-playing early in the morning? Prabhupāda: It is very pleasing to hear. Jayatīrtha: Jaya. *Yaśodānandana: Many temples also in South India, they have all the functions in the morning*-waking up the Deity, bathing the Deity, dressing the Deity, they have different shenai tunes for that. Every temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly here introduce. *Guru*-kṛpā: You should play your flute. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa knows how to play the flute. Prabhupāda: No flute. *Guru*-kṛpā: He can learn to play the shenai, though. Prabhupāda: No, shenai, yes. Very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a man here that's been here. He knows how to play shenai. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm bringing him to Taiwan.(?) Prabhupāda: No, it is not difficult. Anyone can learn. Yes. Lokanātha: [break] ...ing flute imitate Kṛṣṇa or what? Prabhupāda: There is no flute. You say simply Kṛṣṇa plays flute and nobody plays? Lokanātha: You said no playing flute. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Means in the morning. Prabhupāda: So they are coming here? Jayapatāka: Circumambulating the temple. Prabhupāda: That's nice. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...very colorful with all the devotees. Jayapatāka: In South India, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the ācārya goes out... Prabhupāda: So you are taking this bamboo down? This? Jayapatāka: It's already down. Prabhupāda: No, this down? Jayapatāka: Hah, down. Cleared out. Prabhupāda: So it is cleared. You men can live there. Devotees in distance: Jaya! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Jayapatāka: They have big umbrella overhead. Prabhupāda: Yes, they did it. They did it in South India when I was there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Nellore. That was wonderful. Jayapatāka: We can make such arrangement? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Ācāryopāsanam. That is in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Ācāryopāsanam. It is not self-aggrandizement. The ācāryopāsanā goes to Kṛṣṇa directly. Therefore it is needed. Not that it is a pompous thing. Ācāryopāsanā. Kṛṣṇa says. That is the way of knowledge. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau [ŚU 6.23]. *Pañcadraviḍa: How does that work, that if somebody has the association of a pure devotee for only a lava, one*-eleventh of a second, that he attains all perfection? Prabhupāda: If he is so sincere.... Just like dried wood immediately ignites. And if it is moist, it does not. It is the quality of the wood. One takes three hundred years; one in three minutes. That's it. [break] One is dry from the material moist of contamination, he becomes immediately ignited in spiritual... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is that drying process? Prabhupāda: Drying process is for many, many years one has tried to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, for many, many lives, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. When he actually becomes man of knowledge he surrenders unto God. Otherwise he is lost. His drying process may take three minute or three millions years. *Guru*-kṛpā: But that knowledge that Kṛṣṇa is everything comes by Kṛṣṇa's mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's mercy is already there, but if you are not able to take it... *Pañcadravida: Then you don't even have to hear from a self*-realized soul. Simply by seeing him you can become completely purified. Prabhupāda: Yes. Both required. The matches must be also all right, and the wood must be also. Then there is fire. If one of them is defective, then, it will not.... But when you go to the fire, you become dry. But willfully we put again water. This nonsense business makes us late. This process is already there, how to become dry. But instead of taking the process, we put water. Then how it will be ignited? The rules and regulations is the drying process. But without following the rules and regulation, if you again become a victimized by māyā, then there is water and again dry it. So this is going on, watering and drying, watering and drying. No staightforward process for drying. That will help. But difficulty is that we dry and again water. Viṣṇujana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how did Choṭa Haridāsa achieve perfection by killing himself after apparently pouring water on his devotional creeper by talking to a woman? Prabhupāda: His instance was that even an associate of Caitanya Mahāprabhu can fall down. And if one falls down, his punishment is that, suicide. There is no other punishment. He must commit suicide. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruc.... Otherwise he is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's personal servant. He cannot fall down. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu showed this instance that "Even one is My personal servant, he can fall down." And if anyone by any cause he falls down, his punishment is he must commit suicide. This is instruction. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very strict. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. "You have fallen down? You must commit suicide. No more My association." *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that the same as in the Bhagavad*-gītā where Kṛṣṇa says, "For one who is honored, dishonor is worse than death"? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another thing. Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally taught this. To be victimized by māyā is possi.... There is possibility.... Just like Jaya and Vijaya. They were gatekeepers in the Vaikuṇṭha. They also fell down, Hiraṇyakaśipu. So this falldown, there is possibility in any moment because we are very small. We can be captivated by māyā at any moment. Therefore we shall be very, very careful. And if you fall down, then punishment is you make suicide. That's all. Then next life we shall see. Satsvarūpa: But Śrīla Prabhupāda, in The *Nectar of Devotion* it says devotional service is so pure that there's no prāyaścitta necessary. Just again engage in your service. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not prāyaścitta. This is exemplary punishment. He was not liable to be punished, but they played that "This is the.... This should be done." *Guru*-kṛpā: He did not kill himself immediately. He waited for a year. Prabhupāda: He was waiting if Caitanya Mahāprabhu would accept him again. But when he saw that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is not so lenient, he committed suicide. Vajrād api kaṭora. Harder than the thunderbolt and softer than the rose. This is the position. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But, Prabhupāda, if you were as strict as.... If you were that strict... Prabhupāda: No, I am not Caitanya Prabhu. I am not.... Why you are comparing me? I am an ordinary man. *Guru*-kṛpā: So in ISKCON, if someone falls down, it means that he should commit suicide? Prabhupāda: No. Gurudāsa: We wouldn't have much of a movement, then. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We're too attached to our bodies anyway, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, no, if he falls down, that is automatically suicide. If he falls down, that means it is suicide. He got the chance. If he falls down, that is suicide. *Guru*-kṛpā: Spiritual suicide. Prabhupāda: Spiritual suicide. If one gets the chance of becoming eligible for going back to home, back to Godhead, and if he commits mistake and it is stopped, is it not suicide? *Guru*-kṛpā: You once gave the example, Śrīla Prabhupāda, of taking your plane off the ground and then bringing it back to land again. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-kṛpā: You once gave the example that you take your plane to a destination, and you have to turn around and come back and start all over again, take off again. *Prabhupāda: There are so many. Dṛḍha*-vrata. Bhajante mam dṛḍha-vrata. So we should be very strong-minded and continue our devotional service very strongly. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gargamuni's doing some transaction. Prabhupāda: Gargamuni... Jayatīrtha: I think he went to see about the electricity. He said that he was going to go early this morning to see about the electricity, why it is always going off. Prabhupāda: Oh, Garga, garga means "big jug," and "money," full of money. Big jug full of coins. Formerly they used to... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Keep. Prabhupāda: Not.... Cheat the government. There was no income tax, but still they used to keep in big, big jugs all gold coins and put into the..., underneath the ground. Nobody could understand where is the money. Very easy thing. Pañcadravida: Hoarders. Prabhupāda: And he did not disclose at the time of death; then it remained. And then, after some years, somebody digging, he got. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a nice example given in *Nectar of Devotion* about the digging for a treasure. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. [break] ...shenai on the gate, that is nice. Jayapatāka? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatāka. Jayapatāka: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: They should play shenai on the gate, and here kīrtana will go on, not that kīrtana will be stopped to hear their dundubhi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shenai is not a replacement for kīrtana. Prabhupāda: No. Shenai is meant for.... That is navadhana. That is called navadhana. [break] ...must be played. Not this dundubhi. They are playing as a dundubhi. That will not work. And along with shenai they can play. Madhudviṣa: Getting his reeds together. (shenai starts) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...businessman. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. We are selling *Bhāgavatam*; they are selling fish. (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 12, 1976, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: ...clean. That also we sometimes neglect. [break]...means rūpena jāyate iti prajā. Everything which is born, that is prajā. [break] ...children, our grandmother used to engage us for watering work, these pots. And that water was brought from down, two, three stories down, and we used to bring and put. That is good exercise and sport also, competition between children. [break] ...karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ. Everyone should be engaged. That is supervision. [break] ...are also engaged in serving Kṛṣṇa. They give flower, and they're offering: "Take this flower. Offer to Kṛṣṇa." This is service, dedicating. This is explained by Kṛṣṇa to Balarāma while going through the Vṛndāvana forest, that "Just see how the trees are welcoming You, how the birds..." You have got that picture? Hrdayananda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is seeing that, how everyone is ready to serve. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa*-bhakta also sees how everyone is eager to serve Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...engage them rightly, that is leadership. Yes. Otherwise andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. As a blind leader is leading other blind men, this whole world is going on like that. They do not know how to properly lead the people. Misleaders. [break] ...grains, cows, all they should be very properly taken care of and the products offered to Kṛṣṇa. Everyone should be engaged as Kṛṣṇa's servant. That is Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana everyone is engaged how to please Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. [break] ...business to study Vedānta. In Vṛndāvana life we see they were not interested to know what is Brahman. They were interested how to please Kṛṣṇa, how to see Kṛṣṇa smiling. That is Vṛndāvana. Huh? Is it not? From Vṛndāvana picture you see they are simply busy to see how Kṛṣṇa is smiling. They didn't care for studying. What they will study? They were all village girls born in the ordinary class, and they did not know. [break] That is the... Ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim: [Nārada-pañcarātra] "If Kṛṣṇa is served, then where is the necessity of tapasya?" No more tapasya. Tapasya is meant for the third-grade men to come to the stage of serving Kṛṣṇa. And one who is, with heart and soul is serving Kṛṣṇa, he has finished all tapasya. Tepus tapas te juhuvuḥ sasnur ārya [SB 3.33.7]. They have already finished all this tapasya. Therefore they have come to this stage. Kṛta-punya-punjaḥ [SB 10.12.11]. What is called? Piling. Revatīnandana: Heaps of pious activities. *Prabhupāda: Ah, heaps of, yes. [break] ...Mahāprabhu, He immediately gives how to love and serve Kṛṣṇa, because this Kali*-yuga, they will not be able to follow the regulative principles and become elevated. So He is therefore mahā-vadānyāya. He is giving a process-immediately, if followed, he becomes a lover of Kṛṣṇa and His service, immediately. Namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. [break] Revatīnandana: ...circumambulating you, Prabhupāda, paying respects. *Prabhupāda: Of course, their vision, mahā*-bhāgavata... Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughs) That is very beautiful. Revatīnandana: You mean the music? Prabhupāda: No, no. That black. Revatīnandana: Yes, it's very nice. He has blue eyes and big black body. Devotee: Blue eyes? Revatīnandana: Yes. It's amazing. If you look closely you will see... Pañcadraviḍa: The gopīs, they didn't like very much being instructed by Uddhava? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That was dry for them. They asked Uddhava, "Bring Kṛṣṇa. We don't want you any more..." [break] What is his name? That...? Tapomāyā. Tapa... He never sees whether it is watered. He is in charge of agricultural department? Where is Jayapatāka? He never sees. One man should be in charge to see things are being done. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Each... What was that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Each flat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Each floor? Prabhupāda: Yes, each floor. Yes. But Tapomāyā, he does not see even that the water is... He is in charge of agriculture? Jayapatāka: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, it can be understood how he is seeing, he is managing. He does not see. Jayapatāka: Right now we only have about four or five men here that are managing everything. He is also purchasing all the things for the festival. The GBC's have been requested to give some men... Prabhupāda: That means he has no time. Then why he says that "I am in charge." He is not in charge. Jayapatāka: He is trying to... [break] Prabhupāda: After all, they are boys. They are not grown up. [break] ...your Calcutta program? Jayapatāka: They're going tomorrow morning. [break] Bhavānanda: ...maṭha, and then we went to Mādhava Mahārāja's maṭha. So Acyutānanda gave a very strong lecture at Mādhava Mahārāja's maṭha that in order to make devotees who are chanting the holy name, it takes more than any material calculation or business sense, that you have be infused with the potency of the Supreme Lord. All of the sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs were standing out on the balcony and hearing Acyutānanda glorify Your Divine Grace. All the devotees went in. Prabhupāda: [break] ...small card. So one card is put into the shoes, and one card is in his hand. That's all. Number. Suppose twenty shoes duplicate, so one twenty card is put into the shoe and one number twenty in his hand. So a man can see that it is his shoe. Yaśodānandana: Instead of requesting ten paisā, they may be requested to offer something to the Deity. Prabhupāda: Why? Nothing. Let them come and see. That's all. Yaśodānandana: [break] Our Deity is not beggar. Prabhupāda: No. He is bestower. He gives everything. If anyone voluntary gives, that's all right. You should not ask. [break] ...instead of doing this. (Bengali) He said like that. "By showing the Deity to earn livelihood is condemned. Better become a sweeper, municipal sweeper, and sweep the road and earn money." He said like that. That is better, honorable. He is working and getting money, instead of making a good show of Deity and earn money. This is not required. If you want to earn money, go, work according to your capacity and earn money. Don't cheat people. That is Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Pañcadraviḍa: There was a big fight or difference of opinion, wasn't there? Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: There was trouble in Nabadwip, wasn't there, when he advised the pilgrims not to pay money to go into the temples? *Prabhupāda: Yes. He was fight against it. All, Nabadwip, Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana is not so... But still, they have got rate. One thing, it is a question of heart, that a man should come and visit the temple*-he must give something. Why he is to be asked? Voluntarily he should give that. Yaśodānandana: Yes. We were reading in *Nectar of Devotion* this morning. Your Divine Grace is writing that it is customary in India that whenever one visits the Deity or a saintly person to offer something, even one grain of rice. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the system. Lokanātha: But encouraging is not recommended? Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that encouraging? Yaśodānandana: Requesting should not be done. Prabhupāda: No. Lokanātha: It is voluntary. Prabhupāda: Encouraging means your behavior should be so nice that he voluntarily gives. That is encouraging, not that begging and "Put something here. My belly is empty." (laughter) ...that is nice, that "Here is an institution. You kindly become a member. Help us." That is another thing. But why should you earn by showing the Deity? You work so nicely they will become voluntarily member, contributing. That is nice. But not that "Now we have got Deity. He's starving. Please give me something." No. That is not good prac... Pañcadraviḍa: You showed the example when you came to New York. You were cooking capatis and everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise who would cook at that time? [break] ...apartment. So I was cooking, and he liked. He thought that "Without any payment, I have got a cook." Revatīnandana: Dharmadhyaksa dāsa used to be one of his disciples before he joined your, he became your disciple. And he said that he was talking to Dr. Miśra, and Dr. Miśra still talks about your cooking. He said, "Oh, Swamijī, he saved my life." He said, "He taught me how to eat properly." He still talks about you. Prabhupāda: [break] ...improved his health. He says still? Revatīnandana: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Revatīnandana: Dharma was telling me. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...to rise early in the morning and do whatever is needed. Then, at nine, half*-past nine, I will go his apartment and begin cooking. Then, after finishing, I'll take my bathing, and then we shall eat together. And then, after eating, I will go to the Fifth Avenue for loitering. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fifth Avenue. Prabhupāda: Yes. So I was cooking once only, that's all. Yaśodānandana: Your loitering was very fruitful even. Prabhupāda: I was studying Americans, how they are walking, how they are shopping, like that. Satsvarūpa: One time you said you were happier then, maintaining yourself, than having thousands of disciples. Prabhupāda: Yes. There was no chance of finding fault. (laughter) Now I have to find fault. Madhudviṣa: [break] ...New York now named Jaya Nimāi Nitai. When you were first in New York, he was a musician. He used to write music, and he used to get inspired by looking down from his apartment down to the street. And every day he said he used to see this little Indian man walking by, and it was you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And he couldn't figure out what was going on, this man walking by on the street every day. Prabhupāda: Yes, I was having morning walk regularly, alone. Madhudviṣa: He said you used to walk very fast. [break] (Indian band playing) Madhudviṣa: Entrance? [break] Rādhāvallabha: ...ISKCON temples, ISKCON activities, ISKCON temples, ISKCON Deities... [break] Prabhupāda: ...people will know there is exhibition? There is no signboard. Who will know that here is...? Rādhāvallabha: We'll have to put up signs today showing the entrance. There will also be a BBT and the scholars' quotes. Prabhupāda: Where is this? Rāmeśvara: That is near Atlanta. Prabhupāda: All right. [break] ...He taught them to steal then: "Mother is not giving. You steal." That picture is going on. [break] Juhu is so small? Rādhāvallabha: Yes, we should have made it bigger. Rāmeśvara: The size of the cart is restricted. Pañcadraviḍa: What year is that? Rāmeśvara: Recently. Revatīnandana: It was this past year or the year before last when we had it. Two years ago it was full. Prabhupāda: They want to stop it. That is their... [break] A new temple? Jayatīrtha: Old temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Who was talking about casting? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was in Australia, Adelaide. Cittahārī. Prabhupāda: This is very nice. This mūrti should be standard. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Geneva. Prabhupāda: Yes... No, anywhere. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, and drop it(?) like this. Prabhupāda: They are casting. [break] ...this title. Revatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would it be good to have these titles in Bengali as well as English, the titles on the pictures? *Guru*-krpa: They'll understand. Always one or two guys will explain to the crowd. Prabhupāda: Yes, they will understand. [break] Rādhāvallabha: Some of the Bengalis saw this picture yesterday, and they were very surprised. Prabhupāda: There were some Bengalis? Rādhāvallabha: Just a few were coming through while we were putting the display up. They were very much astonished that we have such a big building. Prabhupāda: [break] ...light arrangement? Rāmeśvara: We're going to put lights up today, fluorescent lights. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a wire run through the middle of the... Rāmeśvara: This is about one half the display, right? Rādhāvallabha: One half. Rāmeśvara: The other half is... Prabhupāda: We can make all these pictures into album that can be sold. Rādhāvallabha: What is it? Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda said we can make a photo album of all these pictures. [break] Prabhupāda: ...ISKCON temples all over the world. Rāmeśvara: You told us to make one book also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Little description and... Pañcadraviḍa: That would be very good for preaching. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: With our equipment, we can make these photos in any size. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So do it. [break] ...Auckland? Rādhāvallabha: Madhudviṣa? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is the same house in Auckland and, New Zealand? Rādhāvallabha: Gribblehurst Road. Prabhupāda: Where I went? Rāmeśvara: Yes, I can see it. Gribblehurst Road. Same house. This is the old temple in Houston. They're buying a new one. Prabhupāda: Oh. Boston, oh, it is very nice. Rāmeśvara: This is one of the best neighborhoods in all of Boston. Prabhupāda: They are framework or brick? Satsvarūpa: It's called brownstone. Prabhupāda: Oh, brown... Stone it is. That is nice. [break] ...new temple? No. Rādhāvallabha: That's Ottawa, Canada. Prabhupāda: Canada. Rāmeśvara: That is the capital city of Canada. Prabhupāda: Yes. Johannesburg. That is wonderful. [break] Stockholm, yes. Rādhāvallabha: People will wonder when they see all these pictures. You are in half of them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually, he's in all of them. Prabhupāda: Virginia. Here I did not go. Rāmeśvara: It's near Washington, D.C. Prabhupāda: Baltimore. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The new Miami temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh, very nice. Satsvarūpa: There are ten acres. That's just a tiny bit. Rāmeśvara: They have nice mango trees? Satsvarūpa: Oh, yes, they have many, many, a whole orchard with irrigation pipes. Rādhāvallabha: This sign on the door of the Tokyo temple says, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Temple." Prabhupāda: So make arrangement that people may come. They should be given direction. Otherwise how they will know there is such thing? Hariśauri: Mexico. Rādhāvallabha: This is only half of the temple pictures. The other half will go up today. Rāmeśvara: And all the professor quotes will be up by tomorrow morning. Prabhupāda: Very good. Rāmeśvara: They'll fill the entire wall on the other side. Prabhupāda: Do to your best capacity and Kṛṣṇa will help. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There should be some border over here so that people don't accidentally fall into the box. Really. We have all kinds of kids coming around. (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 13, 1976, Mäyäpur *Prabhupāda: ...to eat yourself, sufficiently, and if there is excess, then question of trade, vāṇījyam. Otherwise, if there is no excess, where is the question of vāṇījya? You are starving. [break] Then we shall. There is no excess. [break] ...will spoil everything everywhere. [break] "The government men will take up the policy of plunderers and rogues," that is stated. Dasyu*-dharma. Dasyu means plunderer. He catches: "What you have got, give me." This will be government. "What you have got, give me." Bas. You cannot say anything. "Law." Plundering is law. Then where is your government? If killing is law, plundering is law, then what is this government? Government means to give security to the property and life. So when the government will make law, "I can take your life whenever I like, and I can plunder your property as I like," then where is the law? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The government's duty, then, is to protect. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is government. That is kṣatriya. Ksat trāyate iti kṣatriya. Kṣat means injury, and one who gives protection from injury, he is kṣatriya. Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja. As soon as he saw a cow is attempted..., immediately he said, "Who are you, rascal? You are trying to kill this cow in my kingdom?" That is kṣatriya. And nowadays, even if I kill you, the police will see from there; he'll not come. This is government. And when the finished killing, then he will say, "Who is this man?" He'll note down, "A man is killed." And then inquiry, and then finished. Who is the man killed and what is happened? Nothing of the sort. Inquiry and finish. Big commission report. Madhudviṣa: They have made a survey in America. They have made a survey that nine out of every ten crimes never gets a victim. Prabhupāda: Hm? Madhudviṣa: Never gets solved. Nine out of every ten crimes never gets solved in America. Prabhupāda: No, it cannot be solved. *Pañca*-draviḍa: It's more than that, probably. Madhudviṣa: So the criminal is very much encouraged, because he has only one chance in ten of getting caught whether he robs a bank or steals or rapes or something like that. Prabhupāda: But for this purpose they are maintaining huge police force, and you are earning money and tax, that's all. Rāmeśvara: The police all accept bribes. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: They all accept bribes or they do some illegal business themselves with the criminals they capture. *Prabhupāda: Yes, regular... Every criminal has got organization to bribe the police. And the police does not take directly, and some in*-between man, agent, he collects from the criminal and gives to the police. In India this is going on. I know that. A via-media man, he makes fortune. Yes. Whatever is collected, ten percent he takes, and balance is given to the police. There is a confectioner in Delhi. He is selling jalebi. You know jalebi? Devotees: Yes. *Prabhupāda: He has got ten lakhs of rupees because he collects the bribe from others and pay to the police. Everyone knows. There was one Mullik, now, on that Mahātmā Gandhi Road. His business was that. He was collecting. That quarter, our quarter, was full of pocket, pickpockets, guṇḍās. Pickpockets, gundas, in our childhood they were our neighborhood. (laughs) I remember when I was child I was coming, and the pickpocket was pickpocketing, and he was... He was doing like that: "Don't speak. Don't talk." I have seen all this. And whenever there was any riot, so we were accustomed to see everything. When there was Hindu*-Muslim riot, one boyfriend told me, "Oh, don't go to your house. It is... A great riot is..." I thought, "Riot is going on daily." It was the same thing. [break] ...quarter. Induriya prakāra(?) Bhāgavata: In New York one policeman admitted that when the police would capture the thieves with the stolen goods, then they would confiscate the goods and keep it privately in their homes and sell the stolen goods and get the money for themselves. They would not return it to the owner, but they would utilize it for making money. So they are also thieves. Prabhupāda: So if this is the practice in a country which is so opulent, just imagine what is there in India. Pañcadraviḍa: I had experience, because when I was younger I was stealing, and I was taking to the hock shop one typewriter, and while I was taking to the hock shop this typewriter, the police came and showed me his badge and took this typewriter and one French horn from... He took the money, and he said, "I am going to check to see if this is stolen." So one week later I was worried. I called him. I said, "What is happening?" He said, "That typewriter was reported one year ago stolen from the school." But he said, "Because I think you're a good boy, I'm not going to arrest, you because I don't think you did it. If I thought for a moment you did it, I would immediately come and take you." So I said, "That's all right. What about the French horn? When can I have my money back?" He said, "You just forget about this. You leave it to me." Prabhupāda: To keep you honest. (laughter) To keep you honest, you just don't hope your money. *Guru*-krpa: Their practice is that they watch our saṅkīrtana devotees collect all day, and they know when he has good pocketful of money. Then they arrest him... Prabhupāda: In Germany they have done this. *Guru*-krpa: ...take to jail, and then they say... Actually the boy collected two hundred dollars. They say, "Oh, he only collected thirty dollars," and then the others, they split. Prabhupāda: Where it is done? *Guru*-krpa: This happened in Chicago to us. Prabhupāda: Then? What action is taken? *Guru*-krpa: Nothing we can do. Pañcadraviḍa: That is their business. They take from the thieves because they are the biggest thieves, and then they split. This is regular practice. *Guru*-krpa: There's one devotee who was in the Detroit temple who used to be on the police force, and he told us everything about how they are all cheaters. Mahendra: In America also sometimes they'll arrest someone who is selling illegal drugs. Then they'll arrest him, then they'll seize the drugs, then they'll take the drugs home and they'll sell them to make money. Yaśodānandana: Sometimes they'll use it themselves. Mahendra: Sometimes they use it, right. Madhudviṣa: In New York there was a big scandal. There was ten millions dollars worth of drugs confiscated from a boat, and they put it in the police lockup, and then it was gone. Prabhupāda: In Navadvīpa... You have heard the name of Vamsidāsa Bābājī. So sometimes, when his things were stolen, the disciples will cry that "It is stolen." So he said, "Why you are bothering? One thief gives; another thief takes. That's all. Who gave the money, he is also thief, and who has taken away, he is also thief. So why you are bothering?" One thief gives; another thief takes. Bhāgavata: He learned that the policeman was selling the stolen goods because one morning in New York they passed by the temple, and they said, "We have many cartons of paper towel. You want to buy?" Prabhupāda: Hm? Bhāgavata: They came by our temple. They said, "We have many cartons of paper towel." Prabhupāda: Paper towel? Bhāgavata: Paper towels, yes. And they asked if we wanted to buy. "Very cheap," they said, "cheaper than in the supermarket." So then we could understand where they had gotten... Prabhupāda: [break] ...deal with such men. This material world is so corrupt. [break] ...we are not going to get that land, eh? That land? I don't think we are going. Mahāṁsa: Well, we'll know in one, two weeks. By end of the month we'll know exac... Prabhupāda: No, no, you'll know, but for the time being, by the situation... Mahāṁsa: Now it is still under litigation. We are not sure. But we have waited one year now under suspense. Now it has come to an end. Yaśodānandana: Yeah, but they don't know... Mahāṁsa: Yes, Prabhupāda, even if they take away... Even if they take away 600 acres, they have a right on 250 acres, so we will get the 250 acres. So minimum we'll get. We won't get... Maybe we won't get the full 600 acres, but we'll get 250 acres. Because even if they come under the Ceiling Act, then 250... They can keep the rest they will get. Then they can give, they can sell, they can do anything. Prabhupāda: [break] ...can get? Mahāṁsa: Yes, as soon as they can... Either one decision is that "Yes, you can keep the whole 600 acres." And the other decision is "No, you have to... We will confiscate. You can only keep 250." As soon as that decision is made, I will get the document for transferring the trust deeds. Yaśodānandana: One advantage of the land there, of the soil in Andhra Pradesh, that it's very good for the sugarcane, and that fruit called sitaphala(?) grows very nicely in that area. Mahāṁsa: It grows wild there. And out of the 600 acres, there's about 200 acres which is very fertile, and the other area is kind of dry. So it is fertile. So we would invest lot of money on cultivating all year round. So if we get 250 acres, then we'll get the good area. Yadubara: We can choose our own land? Madhudviṣa: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: So that... Rādhāvallabha: There will be a second rail on this other side, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We will put that up today. Prabhupāda: [break] ...now the visitors? Rādhāvallabha: Just a few. Their sign just got up last night, so no one has seen the sign yet. Mostly devotees are coming to see it so far. Madhudviṣa: [break] That's the library party. Rādhāvallabha: In this place we're going to put a large board and put all your books on the board. *Rāmeśvara: [break] "...a standing order to begin with volume one of Śrī Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, then please enter standing order to begin with volume one for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam." This is their standing order, the order they send us in the mail. *Prabhupāda: What is the...? (reading) "No work in all Indian literature is more quoted. Because none is better loved in the West than the Bhagavad*-gītā. Translation of such work demands not only knowledge of Sanskrit but an inward sympathy with the theme and a verbal..." What is called? Devotees: Artistry. Prabhupāda: "Artistry. But the poem is a symphony in which God is seen in all things. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is, of course, profoundly sympathetic to the theme. He brings to it a special interpretative insight. Here we have a powerful and persuasive presentation in the bhakti tradition of this dearly beloved poem. The Swami's introduction makes clear at once where he stands as a leading exponent of Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is my actual... Devotee (1): [break] ...not only have your books there in the New York Public Library, but the head librarian of that Oriental division did the review also. *Prabhupāda: "...government(?) of postgraduate college..." Oh, O.B.L. Kapoor. [break] "It is an exhaustive plan of original Sanskrit text in Devanāgarī, then a translation, English synonym... What practitioner of philosophy cannot but be attracted to this serious student and scholar of Sanskrit language and Hindu religion and philosophy? The viewpoint of a devotee cum scholar has the advantage of making the philosophy meaningful to any practical*-minded person." Devotees: Jaya. Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this professor calls you "uncompromising." He said that you are "uncompromising." Prabhupāda: Hm. That is my philosophy. Read it. Read it somebody. *Satsvarūpa: "Ever since 1893, when Swami Vivekananda proclaimed monism and tolerance to the World's Parliament of Religions at Chicago, nonspecialists in America have pictured Hinduism as an easy*-going phantasmagoria of smiling faces disappearing like dewdrops into the shining sea. The Nectar of Devotion should bring them up sharp. (laughter) His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, whose shorn, orange-clad disciples have brought the inseparable twins of bhajana and bakshish to the streets of America, has no doubt that such impersonalism is nothing less than rascaldom." Devotees: Jaya! *Satsvarūpa: "With all the books on Vedānta and bland neo*-transcendentalism that are at present available to the English-speaking public, it is good to have on the popular market such an uncompromising statement of an opposing view from the pen of one who is as firmly rooted in a disciplic tradition, guru-paramparā, as Bhaktivedanta Swami." Devotees: Haribol! Ghanaśyāma: At this school, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they ordered two orders. They were so favorable, for their Theology Department Library and also for the main library, because there were so many professors like this one who were favorable, they wanted your books to be very easily accessible. Devotee (1): This is the largest professor in Sanskrit in the whole United States, from Harvard University. Satsvarūpa: Most distinguished of all men. Ghanaśyāma: He never writes reviews for anyone, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but he wrote for you. He just refuses. He hides himself, you know. Prabhupāda: What? Tell me. What does he say? *Satsvarūpa: "I can recommend Śrī Caitanya*-caritāmṛta as a source of rich insights for every serious student of consciousness." Prabhupāda: Allen Ginsberg. Satsvarūpa: Sometimes there are professors of English, all different departments, appreciating. Devotee (1): This man was selected to the World Council of Churches for the representative of Hinduism in their large meeting, and he just recently did a review on your *Bhāgavatam*. Prabhupāda: What he says? *Satsvarūpa: "Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, the Indian classic par excellence on bhakti-yoga, attributed to Vyāsa, is one of the most important and influential religio-philosophical works within the Vedic tradition. Thanks to the devoted and scholarly endeavors of Śrī A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the entire work of twelve cantos will be available in a superb English edition for the benefit of the English-reading peoples. In his impeccable style the author presents each verse in original Sanskrit, followed by roman transliteration, English equivalents, translation, and elaborate commentary. The lucid and cogent exegesis brings into relief the theory and practice of Bhāgavata philosophy in relation to contemporary man and his problems of life. I have read the first volume containing First Canto, Part One, Chapter 1-7, with pleasure and profit. A brief account of the life of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu included in this volume illustrates the central theme of the entire text, the loving service of God. A glossary and index to Sanskrit verses and a general index have been added for the convenience of scholars. This monumental work is immensely valuable alike to historians of religion, linguistic scholars, cultural anthropologists, pious devotees, as well as to the general reader interested in spiritual matters. I recommend it highly to every student of Indian philosophy, culture, and religion." Devotee (1): Then he ordered two standing orders for the library, and they took it. [break] Prabhupāda: Oh, that Australian...? [break] *Satsvarūpa: "It is a work to be treasured. The opportunity to receive the profound teachings of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam in the West has been made possible by the devoted labor of Śrīla Prabhupāda. The clarity and precision of his commentaries on the text have rarely been equaled. No one of whatever faith or philosophical persuasion who reads this book with an open mind can fail to be both moved and impressed. The spirit of its message shines brightly from the pages." Rāmeśvara: Jaya! Ghanaśyāma: And he's a psychologist. Usually psychologists, they're very much sort of against spiritual life. Śrīla Prabhupāda, this one here, this is one of the biggest linguistic schools in the world, and this gentleman was the chairman of the department, so he's known all over the world for his studies in different kinds of languages. Prabhupāda: Hm. What does he say? *Satsvarūpa: "It is axiomatic that no book can be expected entirely to satisfy all its potential readers. Here is one, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, however, which can be said to come remarkably close to that ideal. Clearly this book is intended mainly for those who are interested in, or may become so, transcendental science and, more specifically, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. For them it could hardly be bettered, since the elaborate purports attached to each text explain elegantly and lucidly and in every possible detail the underlying meaning of the Sanskrit verses and their relevance to this increasingly popular philosophical outlook. The work is at the same time no less impressive to one who is a layman in the context of transcendental science. A student of Sanskrit or a general linguist with only a smattering of the language would gain much from going through this book and others in the set. That this is so is the result of the way the texts are presented. Each text in Devanāgarī is followed by an exact roman transliteration. This in turn followed by an English transliteration of each separate work. After this comes a translation in flowing English. The result is that with only a modest amount of effort one can succeed in reading and understanding the Sanskrit verses, and the experience is very rewarding. At the end of the book is appended a goodly amount of further helpful material. There is a glossary of important Sanskrit terms, a Sanskrit pronunciation guide, an index of Sanskrit verses in the whole of the First Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and a general index to the First Canto. In other words, we have here the ideal of what an edition of a Sanskrit text for a Western audience should be." Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! *Devotee (1): [break] ...in Mexico, and he's been asked to actually take charge of the Oriental Studies, specifically on Hinduism. And he's done a review on the Spanish Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Prabhupāda: This is Spanish language? Devotee (1): No, English. Rāmeśvara: Printed in the Spanish *Gītā*. Satsvarūpa: Shall I read it? Rādhāvallabha: It's very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: "As a native of India now living in the West, it has given me much grief to see so many of my fellow countrymen coming to the West in the role of gurus and spiritual leaders. Just as any ordinary man in the West becomes conscious of Christian culture from his very birth, any ordinary man in India becomes familiar with the principles of meditation and yoga from his very birth. Unfortunately, many unscrupulous persons come from India, exhibit their imperfect and ordinary knowledge of yoga, cheat the people with their wares consisting of mantras, and present themselves as incarnations of God. So many of these cheaters have come, convincing their foolish followers to accept them as God, that those who are actually well versed and learned in Indian culture have become very concerned and troubled. For this reason I am very excited..." Prabhupāda: Send this copy to Indira Gandhi. Devotee (2): Indira Gandhi. Prabhupāda: Yes, and request him to stop to send, give passport to all these nonsense. Do this. Yes. *Satsvarūpa: "For this reason I am very excited to see the publication of Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, by Śrī A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Śrīla Prabhupāda, from his very birth, was trained in the strict practice of bhakti-yoga, and he appears in a succession of gurus that traces back to the original speaking of Bhagavad-gītā by Śrī Kṛṣṇa. His knowledge of Sanskrit is impeccable. His penetration into the inner meaning of the text is befitting only a fully realized soul who has indeed perfectly understood the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā. Personally, I intend to use this book in the courses which I am directing by invitation of the Mexican government on the language, culture, and philosophy of India. This authorized edition of the Gītā will serve a double purpose in Spanish-speaking countries. One, it will help to stop the terrible cheating of false and unauthorized gurus and yogis; *and two, it will give an opportunity to Spanish*-speaking people to understand the actual meaning of Oriental culture." Devotees: Jaya! Ghanaśyāma: Sometimes... [break] ...they say the exact things, you know. It's so nice that people... Prabhupāda: Sometimes I myself read my reviews. Devotee (1): This man here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, he has just recently, Dr. Bardwell Smith... He's a professor. He has just recently written a letter to us that he's going to bring his students. He's in charge of an India tour program for students in India. He's going to bring his students on a regular scheduled program to Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes, invite them. Rādhāvallabha: Madhudviṣa Mahārāja, if you can keep everyone from banging into those... They break very easily. Prabhupāda: So why not make a small booklet of all these, thin paper, so that we can send. Rādhāvallabha: We need very much also a permanent display building in Māyāpur. This exhibit cost almost four thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: Yes, have immediately. Rādhāvallabha: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Immediately ask them to construct a house. Ghanaśyāma: Make it like a museum. *Prabhupāda: Who is here from māyāpura, in*-charge? Nobody is here? Yadubara: Jayapatāka went on parikrama. Yaśodānandana: I think maybe that along with that commentary from the professor from the University of Mexico to send to Mrs. Indira Gandhi, if all of these quotations are sent, she will understand that you are being appreciated by everyone. Prabhupāda: No, you can send all the quotations, not only one. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...very enlivening, encouraging, very good. And especially from the Western countries. All classes of academic leaders. It is very good. Madhudviṣa: I think they should be displayed in all our temples all over the world. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, oh, yes. Oh, yes. Madhudviṣa: Anybody who comes, they will see how authorized your books are. Rāmeśvara: That's our idea, that we can mass produce these, and any temple can order the quotes from any school of their choice. Rādhāvallabha: We can make an announcement to temple presidents... Rāmeśvara: Every temple can have a room for receiving guests with all the prominent quotes on the wall. (sound of approaching kīrtana party) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All they have to do is hear the party. (?) Devotee (3): Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Oh. Come on. Devotee (3): Jaya. *Guru*-krpa: This boy leads kīrtana for two or three hours nonstop by himself, playing the drum. Prabhupāda: Oh. So parikrāma party has not come back? Madhudviṣa: No, they didn't show up yet. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not good. The class must be attended. Madhudviṣa: They'll be back by the time class starts, I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Then they should not go in the morning. They must attend class. That is very important. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You once gave the example of your spiritual master also, how people were invited on parikrama and you stayed back to hear. Prabhupāda: I never went. [break] Otherwise they should not go in the morning. (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 14, 1976, Mäyäpur Hariśauri: "...all wealth, all strength, everything that you could possibly ever want." And He's offering to everyone, "So just surrender to Me, and I will take complete charge of you." But people are so foolish that they don't do it. They don't take any notice. Prabhupāda: Why...? Suppose a big man, Rockefeller, says, "You simply surrender to me. I will take charge of you." Immediately one takes up. So why the man does not take Kṛṣṇa's word? Haṁsadūta: They are envious of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. Haṁsadūta: Envious of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, no, envious... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're ignorant. Prabhupāda: Men are such a great fool, they have been described as mūḍhas. That is perfect word. Na māṁ duṣkṛtiṇo mūḍhāḥ prapadyante [Bg. 7.15]. Duskṛtino mūḍhāḥ, the most sinful rascal, he does not surrender. That is a fact. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So for one who gives up sinful activities, does his sense of God consciousness become awakened? Prabhupāda: Yes, there is chance. Sinful activities means covering intelligence. Just like animals. A tiger is always engaged in sinful activity, but he does not know it is sinful. There are so many animals. They're simply engaged in sinful activities. Therefore they are excused that "This tiger.... His business is to act sinfully." Therefore God has given him place in a jungle: "You live there, and your sinful activities will not be taken into account." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: : Yesterday this man was finding difficulty discriminating between good and bad. Prabhupāda: Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The gentleman who came yesterday. Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. He is another rascal. Everyone is like him. Therefore we call everyone rascal. Gurukṛpā: The common philosophy in America is "If it feels good, do it." Prabhupāda: Hm? Gurukṛpā: "If it feels good, do it." Prabhupāda: [break] ...man is less. He is simply beating drum. [break] ...the reason? Nobody can explain? *Pañca*-draviḍa: That they won't surrender? Prabhupāda: Hm. Jayādvaita: They have no confidence that Kṛṣṇa is there to actually fulfill responsi... Trivikrama: They say He is imagination. Mahāṁśa: Asurim bhavam asrita. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is due to sinful activities? Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sinful activities? *Prabhupāda: Duskrtino mūḍhaḥ. Anyone commits sin, he is a rascal. Ordinarily also. A person kills somebody*-that means he is rascal. He is rascal. He does not care for the law. That means rascal. So any sinful man is a rascal. Without being rascal, one cannot commit sin. Devotee: Last week in Bombay, Śrīla Prabhupāda, an American astronaut that went to the moon, they asked him if he experienced God or he felt some help from God in his trip. And he said, "No, I had no religious experience. God must have gone the other way." Prabhupāda: What is that? Gurukṛpā: Which way was that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said that when he... Devotee: He went to the moon. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: When he went up in the space capsule to the moon, he had no religious experience, so he thought that there was no God. Prabhupāda: So space traveling induces a man to accept God? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think it's a material conception, that God is in the heavens, above the clouds. *Pañca*-draviḍa: According to Bhāgavatam, these... Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Beyond this material universe, very, very far away. Hrdayananda: But another astronaut who went, he had religious experience, and after coming back he became missionary. Prabhupāda: That is natural. Sudāmā: Another astronaut went insane. Prabhupāda: Hm? Sudāmā: And another astronaut went insane, like a madman. Prabhupāda: Hm. What was the reason? Sudāmā: For his insanity? He could not explain. Jayatīrtha: Insanity is also a result of sinful activities. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Too much passion. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We live in this material world, and we're in so much ignorance that we don't know who it belongs to. Is that due to sinful activities? Prabhupāda: Hm? What is this? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We live in the material world, and we don't perceive who it actually belongs to, like living in a house, not knowing who the owner is. So is this sense of ignorance due to sinful activities? Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose if I go to America and if you do not know what is the political constitution of America, how the country is being managed, that is my foolishness. I must know that in America there is a president, the government is like this, the law is like this. Then I am intelligent. And if I do not know anything, if I think everything is automatically going on, then I am foolish rascal. They think like that, "Everything is going on, nature." They cannot explain what is the nature. Even this flower growing, the tree is growing; *foolish people say, "This is nature," but intelligent person knows what is the law behind it, acting. That is intelligence and foolish. Nothing can happen. These big, big so*-called scientists, they are talking of accidents. That is another rascal. Accidents, why? Why accident? This flower is not growing in this tree, and this flower is not growing in this tree by accident. Why it is not happening? Accidents means that. There is no law. Something happen without any law. That is accident. But we are generally seeing that this flower never grows in this tree and this flower never grows in this tree. Where is accident? Gurukṛpā: It's not accident. Prabhupāda: Hm? Gurukṛpā: It's not accident. Prabhupāda: No, but they say. They have got a big theory, accident theory. Madhudviṣa: They say that in due course this will evolve, that just as this flower, this tree is giving this flower, this rose tree, so after generations, generations of... *Prabhupāda: And we have to believe these rascals, "in future." That is the same post*-dated check, that "You take this ten thousand dollars. It will be paid three hundred years after." So I will have to accept that. I am not such a fool. Madhudviṣa: They will say, "You have to look back into history, and you'll see how history will repeat itself in the future." Prabhupāda: What is that history? The rose flower gave birth to lotus flower? Where is that history? Madhudviṣa: This is what they say, that... Prabhupāda: That, that.... Therefore they are rascals. Madhudviṣa: ...at one time that all the vegetation was... Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Therefore they are rascals. Now they say, the Darwin rascal says, that from monkey man came. Why the monkeys now do not give men? That is rascaldom, false theory. Gurukṛpā: They say they can make crossbreed. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. You are the cause of this crossbreeding. It is not accident. You are making arrangement; therefore it is.... There is cause. It is not accident. There is no accident. [break] ...man promises that "You just surrender to me; I will take care of you, everything," so whether I shall do it or not? Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So why they do not do? Kṛṣṇa says that "You surrender, and I take care of." Acyutānanda: " 'Cause Kṛṣṇa is not here. We can see the man, and we can see him giving us." *Prabhupāda: That means he has no eyes to see. Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. I say aṇḍāntara*-sthaṁ paramāṇu-cayā... Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. He is within your heart. But that means you are rascal. You do not know to see Kṛṣṇa. Gurukṛpā: "But that's conditional." Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: "If I surrender to the big man, he should give me anything I want." Prabhupāda: Yes, so Kṛṣṇa says that. Gurukṛpā: But Kṛṣṇa says, "You cannot do this. You cannot do that." Therefore it is conditional. Prabhupāda: Then there is no surrender. Acyutānanda : "Ultimately I know that Kṛṣṇa takes away everything." Prabhupāda: Then there is no surrender. You do not surrender. Acyutānanda: "But I know that Kṛṣṇa takes away everything from His devotees ultimately, so I don't want to surrender." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good for.... That is good for you. Just like the physician says that "You surrender. You don't eat these things. I'll cure you." Will you accept this? Yaśodānandana: "Well, when Kṛṣṇa will give me His mercy, then I'll surrender." Prabhupāda: Hm? Yaśodānandana: "When Kṛṣṇa will give the mercy, when He wills it, I'll surrender." Prabhupāda: He is already giving you, because without Kṛṣṇa's mercy you cannot live for a second. Gurukṛpā: "So similarly, when He desires I serve Him, I will serve Him. But now He is not desiring." Madhudviṣa: They would say, "We are living and we are not serving Kṛṣṇa. You are living and you are serving Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: But he is.... That is another foolish question. He said that "You do it." He is not desiring? How foolish that is. Gurukṛpā: "But He is not inspiring me to do it." Prabhupāda: What is inspiring? He is directly saying, "You do that." Is not instruction? Gurukṛpā: "But He's not inspiring me." Prabhupāda: Just see how fool. He is saying directly, "Do this," and still He is not inspiring. Just see. Mahāṁśa: He says that "Only by His mercy I will be able to do it." Prabhupāda: Eh? Mahāṁśa: "He says, 'Only by Kṛṣṇa's mercy I will be able to surrender to Him.' So His mercy is on you, but His mercy has not come to me." Prabhupāda: And if you don't accept the mercy, then whose fault it is? I am giving you mercy: "You take it." And if you do not take it, then it is my fault? Revatīnandana: "But I don't want to surrender. I want to be Kṛṣṇa. I don't want to serve Kṛṣṇa; I want to be Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: But that you have tried for millions of lives. Revatīnandana: "So I'm a rascal." Prabhupāda: Therefore you are rascal. Revatīnandana: "I have so many plans, though. Someday..." Prabhupāda: (laughs) Therefore you are rascal. You have tried already. Kṛṣṇa has given you chances. "You wanted to become this? All right, you become this. You wanted to become this? All right, you become this." So that you have tried, but you have failed, and still, "All right, go on." Revatīnandana: "But I am a fool, so I will keep trying. I will not surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Jayatīrtha: They like to be a fool. Prabhupāda: And... Gurukṛpā: They say, "You Westerners have enjoyed the material life, and we have not. Therefore let us enjoy, and then we will become." *Prabhupāda: What is that enjoyment? Is that enjoyment? They are working so hard for ten rupees. Is that enjoyment? The enjoyment is "the future, future." "At night I shall go to my wife and enjoy"*-that is enjoyment. But for that enjoyment he is working so hard. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. Everyone is thinking, "I shall enjoy at night," and working hard. That's all. This is enjoyment. *Pañca*-draviḍa: "But why do you blame us for not surrendering when we see that even Kṛṣṇa's devotees can't surrender to Him? They come to us and ask us for money for these books. Why don't they give them away?" Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa's devotee.... When he surrenders, he is devotee. When he does not, he is not devotee; he is trying to become devotee. *Pañca*-draviḍa: "But why do they ask us for money for these books? Why don't they give them away, if they're so surrendered to Kṛṣṇa?" Prabhupāda: Why shall I give you? Why shall I give you? Gurukṛpā: "Kṛṣṇa says He is the proprietor of everything. Why He has to ask me?" *Pañca*-draviḍa: "Yes, why is He asking us for money?" Prabhupāda: And He is proprietor of your money. Give Him. (laughter) I think our Girirāja played this trick. Revatīnandana: Yes. I have also played the same trick. Prabhupāda: And one boy gave his all money. Revatīnandana: They say it is all one. So I say, "If it is all one, then it doesn't make any difference if you have the money or I have the money, so give it to me." It works. They don't like it very much. Prabhupāda: And you give it. "Your money is my money; my money is my money." *Pañca*-draviḍa: In your article, though, you said that Dhṛtarāṣṭra said he was better than the sannyāsīs because they were coming to him, begging for money. Prabhupāda: [break] "...beg. They help you. You are keeping Kṛṣṇa's money; you'll be punished. So return it to Kṛṣṇa; you'll be happy." Haṁsadūta: Voluntary disclosure. Prabhupāda: Yes. Voluntary disclosure. [break] ...abhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ paramam... *Pañca*-draviḍa: Prabhupāda, why is it that a devotee falls down, that he wants to surrender to Kṛṣṇa and again he falls back to the material world to become a false enjoyer? *Prabhupāda: He's more sinful. Yeṣām anta*-gataṁ pāpam. He has not yet finished his sinful activities; therefore it takes some time. Neither he surrenders fully. Just like somebody said, "I want to enjoy material world." Just see. That is sinful. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa will protect any living entity who surrenders? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even from all sinful reactions. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo [Bg. 18.66]. *Prabhupāda: Yes, if he surrenders actually. He says. He says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo. Gurukṛpā: That surrender has to be with perfect knowledge, or else it won't be strong enough. Prabhupāda: If he surrenders, the knowledge will be there. That knowledge.... It is very psychological. If you surrender.... If I surrender to you, I must have some conception that you are very big. That much conception will help you, not more than this. Simply accept that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Kṛṣṇa bhakti kaile sarva karma kṛta haya. If you simply understand this, that "If I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then everything is in my knowledge..." Sraddha śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya, kṛṣṇa bhakti kaile sarva karma... And then he becomes immediately. And if I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then my life is successful. This much. Is it very difficult? Gurukṛpā: No, it's the easiest thing. Prabhupāda: Kavirāja Gosvāmī has explained very nicely. This is viśvāsa. Śraddhā śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya. Explain, Acyutānanda, this. Explain this. Acyutānanda: If you have firm faith in Kṛṣṇa and surrender unto Him, then all other activities and responsibilities are fulfilled by serving Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That's it. Acyutānanda: Dāya mama gelā; tuwā... Prabhupāda: Tuwā o pada baraṇe(?) This is required. Acyutānanda: Serving the root. *Prabhupāda: "My only responsibility is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa"*-then this very conception will save you. Rāmeśvara: I spoke with one man who argued that "Kṛṣṇa is very cruel because He knows everything past, present and future, so He knew that we would all fall down from the spiritual sky, but still, He gave us the independence to fall down." Prabhupāda: Hm? Rāmeśvara: "Even though He knew we would fall, because He knows everything..." Acyutānanda: That's a common question. Prabhupāda: That is another foolish question. Unless you have got independence, what is your life? Then you are dead stone. You want to become a dead stone? That is not Kṛṣṇa's concern. Kṛṣṇa does not give such perfection, that you become a dead stone. Acyutānanda: "The thing is that because Kṛṣṇa knows the future, past, present, and future, so He knew that we would fall down, so why didn't He help me?" Prabhupāda: No, no, future means, just like.... This is the law of nature, that if you steal, you'll be punished. So if I say, "Oh, you are stealing; you'll be punished," this is future. Suppose this is the month of March, and if I say, "In the month of July there will be rain." So I know; you know; everyone knows. This is not a future telling. The natural sequence is everyone knows it. Madhudviṣa: But does that means that Kṛṣṇa doesn't know something? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa.... If everyone knows, why Kṛṣṇa does not know? "He knows everything" means this common sense everyone knows. Madhudviṣa: Does He know what you will choose? Prabhupāda: Eh? Just try to understand. Future means like this: nature's law; and it will happen. After summer there will be rainy season; it will happen, and they will call, I am foretelling future. It is not future; it is natural sequence, automatically happened. Satsvarūpa: But that's predictable. If I have my own free will, what I'm going to do, you don't know. Prabhupāda: No, no, if you are in knowledge, you can predict. But if you are fool, you cannot say. If I see that in July there will be rain, and if you are a fool, you'll protest. That is your foolishness. It is natural sequence, one after another. Madhudviṣa: When is the natural sequence...? Prabhupāda: Natural sequence.... Just like you are infected, some contaminous disease. You'll suffer. There is a story that one fool was sitting on a branch of a tree and he was cutting off. And somebody said, "You'll fall down." "Ha, fall down." But when he fell down he said, "Oh, you are a great astrologer." So who goes to the astrologer? Only fools and rascal. No sane man goes. They know that what is.... Yad bhavyantam tad bhavata.(?) What is to happen, that will happen. Why shall I go to astrologer? Gurukṛpā: I can prepare myself to make change. Prabhupāda: Yes. My only business is to serve Kṛṣṇa. I don't mind what will happen next. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That desire to serve Kṛṣṇa, though, that Kṛṣṇa.... Prabhupāda: Don't talk like foolish. That desire everyone has. He is serving. He is serving so many things, but he doesn't want to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is his foolishness. He is serving māyā; still, he denies to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is his misfortune. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kono bhāgyavān jīva [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. So unless one is very fortunate, he does not agree to serve Kṛṣṇa. Madhudviṣa: So that future is determined by the great souls, such as yourself. Prabhupāda: No, that... Madhudviṣa: Because you are creating people's good fortune. Prabhupāda: Fortune, there. It is already there. I am simply informing. *Madhudviṣa: No, but you actually engage them in ajñāta*-sukṛti, meritorious activities, even unwillingly performed. Prabhupāda: But this is the duty of everyone. One should not.... That is enjoined in the.... Gurur na sa syāt: "One should not become a guru if he cannot do that." Otherwise he is cheating. Why he should become guru? Why he should accept service from so many people if he cannot rightly direct them? Then he becomes bound up by the karma laws. If I take one paisa from you without any service, I have to pay you four paisa. Mahāṁśa: In the spiritual world the living entity is full of knowledge, so does he... Prabhupāda: That is enjoined, ordered, "You should not become guru if you cannot save him. You should not become father if you cannot save him." This is sastric injunction. First word is gurur na sa syāt pitā na sa syāt. Why you are claiming? Just like.... We are not going to become guru like that.... What is that rascal? Yogi...? Gurukṛpā: Guru Mahārāja. Revatīnandana: Which one? There's many rascals. Prabhupāda: That big rascal, transcendental meditation. Madhudviṣa: Maharishi. Prabhupāda: Maharishi. He is giving assurance, "If you practice this yoga, then you'll be very able to do your business nicely. Your..." These things are.... And he is guru. Mahāṁśa: And he charges them a fabulous amount of money. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, unless... Gurukṛpā: That verse, guravo bahavo santi śiṣya-śāntopahārakāḥ... Prabhupāda: No, no, they say to their friend that "These people want to be cheated. Why shall I not cheat?" He says. One of his secretaries came to him.... "If you want God, then go to Bhaktivedanta Swami." *Pañca*-draviḍa: He said that. Prabhupāda: He said, this Mahesh Yogi. "My business is cheating because the rascals wanted to be cheated. So why shall I not cheat and get some money?" Gurukṛpā: But he doesn't give the money to you, though. He knows you are real. Prabhupāda: No.... Not.... That is another thing, but he knows that "God consciousness you can get there." Mahāṁśa: Yesterday you said that one cheater takes from the other cheater; so he is a cheater, he is taking from other cheaters. *Gurukṛpā: You mentioned in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that one cheater takes the money, another cheater takes it... Prabhupāda: No, no, his business is cheating. His business is cheating. He said, "These rascals want to be cheated, so why not cheat?" Madhudviṣa: So we shouldn't be so angry at him. Some people are serving coffee because people want coffee. Some people are selling bīḍīs because people want bīḍīs. So if some people want to be cheated, so he is simply performing a function of society. *Prabhupāda: That is the world. Therefore the whole world is the society of cheater and cheated. That is the version of my Guru Mahārāja. The whole so*-called human society means a bunch of cheaters and cheated. That's all. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Īśopaniṣad says, asuryā nāma te lokāḥ. He is going to hell even though he knows that he is cheating. He is also going to hell even if he is consciously cheating. Prabhupāda: So don't be cheater; don't be cheated. That is intelligence. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is our fortune that we've come in contact with a qualified guru? What have we done to qualify to come in contact with you? Revatīnandana: In other words, why do some come and others not come? *Prabhupāda: It is the ajñāta*-sukṛti, say. Ajñāta-sukṛti. You might have done something, very pious activities, which you do not know, but on the effect of... Madhudviṣa: So it seems like it's up to chance, then. Prabhupāda: No chance. Just like a sinful man. Some saintly person comes to him and he gives some money to him. He does not know that "I am doing very pious activity," but because he has given, he becomes pious. *Revatīnandana: If not even a blade of grass moves unless Kṛṣṇa sanctions it, then why does someone have the opportunity to perform such ajnata*-sukrti, another person not? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa wants.... Suppose a saintly person comes to a very sinful man. He needs some money. Immediately Kṛṣṇa says, "Give him some money. He requires." So he says, "All right, sir, take it." So Kṛṣṇa's desires, he gives. Unless Kṛṣṇa dictates from within, how he can give? Hariśauri: So then where is the question of free will? If I want to give or not give... Prabhupāda: No, no, free will under Kṛṣṇa. You can become free will and become a big man immediately. Your free will sanctioned by Kṛṣṇa. You are not so free that whatever you like, you can do. *Madhudviṣa: So even if I want to perform some ajnata*-sukrti, it is only by Kṛṣṇa's mercy that I will do it. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. As soon as he gives to a saintly person, bhakta, he immediately acquires some asset of future development. Immediately. Acyutānanda: If someone gives to a person for spiritual..., consciously for spiritual improvement... Prabhupāda: There is no question of... Acyutānanda: ...and the person misuses the money, does he benefit? Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: If a man says, "I am giving you this donation because it is a spiritual organization," but if the money is misused, does that man benefit? Prabhupāda: If money is misused, then both of them become implicated. If it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, then both of them becomes under the laws of karma. Acyutānanda: But that man is sincere. Prabhupāda: Well, this word sincere, there is no meaning unless he is a devotee. Ei bala ei manda sab mano dharma: "These are all mental concoction." There is no meaning. "This man is good. This man is sincere. This man is bad. This man is..." They are all mental concoction. Only good is he who is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Others all rascals. Hariśauri: So if Kṛṣṇa has given the dictation, then is He dictating every sinful man to give? Prabhupāda: Hm? Hariśauri: Is he dictating every sinful man to give? Prabhupāda: Why do you question like that? Kṛṣṇa is so foolish that He will dictate to give to a foolish, er, sinful man? It is odd question. Hariśauri: This is that point that does one come to..., does one get contact with a pure devotee and advance like that from his own free will, from accepting the mercy of the spiritual master or not? Prabhupāda: What does he say? Hm? Hariśauri: The point.... The point... Prabhupāda: Somebody answer. Jayādvaita: Not every sinful man is dictated to give money; otherwise they'd all be giving us money. They're all sinful. We'd be getting money from everyone. Revatīnandana: But then the question is why some and not others also? Trivikrama: Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart. Gurukṛpā: But some are innocent. Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's dictation. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. And you cannot bind Kṛṣṇa to dictate in a similar way. If He likes, He can ask a sinful man, "Do this." If He doesn't like, He may not act. That is Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: So ultimately it is simply by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: ...that he comes back to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is Kṛṣṇa's business where to show mercy, where not to show. You cannot oblige Him that "You show mercy everywhere." No. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-maya-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. Kṛṣṇa.... You cannot oblige Kṛṣṇa, "You do this." That is not Kṛṣṇa. That is not Kṛṣṇa. If one is obliged to act to your dictation, then he is not Kṛṣṇa. Therefore whatever Kṛṣṇa likes, He'll do. You cannot oblige Him that "You have to do it." No. That is karma-mimāṁsa, that "If good work gives good result, so why should we care for Kṛṣṇa? We shall do the good work." That is.... Ordinary people, they think like that. Karma-mimāṁsa. "If I do good work, Kṛṣṇa will be obliged to give me good effect. Why shall I care for Kṛṣṇa?" That is karma-mimāṁsa. "Work is final. Do good work, that's all." They say like that. But we say, even if you do good work, if Kṛṣṇa does not want it, then it will not produce good result. That is Kṛṣṇa. Trivikrama: We don't have the mercy of Kṛṣṇa yet, so... Prabhupāda: No, no. Everyone has got the mercy, but that mercy is not obligatory. If He likes, He can give you mercy; if He does not like, He may not. Trivikrama: But everyone has it. Prabhupāda: Everyone.... He is giving mercy. That is general. But if He does not like, He may not give you. You cannot make Him obliged. *Pañca*-draviḍa: So why is it, then, if it's a question of ajñāta-sukṛti... The Indians, from their birth they're watering tulasī, they're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're doing so many activities, but mostly your disciples are foreigners? Prabhupāda: So that.... No, means that is temporary. They may come again. It will never go in vain. Just like this cloud. Cloud is meant for raining. Now it is not raining, but when there is sufficient cloud, it will rain. You cannot say there is no rain. There is, but it is not sufficiently collected. When it is sufficiently collected, then. *Revatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the śāstras, like in Bhagavad*-gītā, Kṛṣṇa gives certain criteria... Prabhupāda: Sometimes you will see, even no sufficient cloud, still raining. Acyutānanda: Yes, one cloud. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is superior direction. It is not your direction. [break] Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa explains why He comes at a certain time and He says, "I come whenever there are certain conditions." Prabhupāda: No, no, not "certain time." Revatīnandana: Does He ever say, is there any statement in the śāstra... *Prabhupāda: Now it is six*-thirty. Generally I go down. If I like, I don't go. Devotees: (laughter) Jaya Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: [break] ...party did not go Navadvīpa? *Revatīnandana: We went to another place. We did not go to Navadvīpa. We went to the temple of Murāri Gupta over here, just behind the Yoga*-pīṭha. It's just around the bend. *Gurukṛpā: Today they are going to Nṛsiṁha*-dvīpa(?) Prabhupāda: Oh. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Gurukṛpā: Yesterday down at the Ganges there was everywhere Bhāgavatam class. Caitanya*-caritāmṛta class was going on in different groups, and kīrtana was going on everywhere. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (shenai band music) [break] Gurukṛpā: Prabhupāda internationalized... Prabhupāda: They can go to the Ganges. Gurukṛpā: That is better. The lake looks very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: When we went over to the Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta's samādhi that morning, there were so many fish in the pond that the water was constantly moving. It was very beautiful. Jayādvaita: [break] Instead of building you the house, we should print books, but I think we have to build you the house because the person bhāgavatam is as good as the book *Bhāgavatam*. Prabhupāda: No, that is the conclusion. Yes. Bhāgavata paragiya bhāgavata sthāne. One has to learn book Bhāgavata from the person bhāgavata. Bhāgavata paragiya bhāgavata sthāne. Rāmeśvara: [break] ...beginning to come. Prabhupāda: Hm? Rāmeśvara: Just beginning to come. Tripurāri: Now it is all finished? Rāmeśvara: I was just told that last night the winds were blowing so hard that they took everything down so the plexiglass wouldn't break. And this morning, right after your class, they're going to put it all up again. *Tripurāri: [break] Rādhā*-Dāmodara buses. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Tripurāri: Gaura*-Nitāi Deities on each bus. Prabhupāda: What is that framework? Tripurāri: That is preaching outside somewhere, at a college. Rāmeśvara: This is that TV show. Dhṛṣṭadyumna was on that show. Prabhupāda: That meeting was very nice. [break] ...experience. So much money is being spoiled and squandered. You are collecting money.... (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 15, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: "...and they are drunkards, and they are guṇḍās, and they are creating trouble always." "Oh, then why not preach amongst them?" You see? This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching. Hard nut. To accept a hard nut and make it soft. [break] ...who was injured, but His decision to deliver these persons was executed. So why should we neglect China and Russia? China has good relationship now with America. Hṛdayānanda: Ah, yes. Prabhupāda: So American gentlemen, doing, to do some business, I think there will be no difficulty. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: "We are not going to preach any Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are going to do some business of our books. That's all." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: China they can do books and incense. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a Spiritual Sky sales representative or looking into the possibilities of manufacturing incense in China. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we have got now documents how our books are important. So therefore we want to introduce. Like that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How our books are imported? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we have got so many... Devotee: Important. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Important. Oh, important. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: Also you can tell them we're going to import things to America. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: We could tell them we want to import incense from China to America. They will like that. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You are going for export and import. We want to export books, import incense. On this plea, exchange. Hṛdayānanda: That is how the Westerners originally entered China. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And similarly, you have got already some inquiries from booksellers from Russia. On that plea*-he is also sales organization-do something there. We have got philosophy, books, approved by learned circles. There is good chance. Our Trivikrama Mahārāja reported. He went to that Formosa? Trivikrama? *Guru*-kṛpā: Taiwan. Prabhupāda: You went there. Trivikrama: Yes. Prabhupāda: The report was the men there were very nice. Trivikrama: Yes, they were. Prabhupāda: It is by propaganda that "Russians are bad," "Chinese are bad." No. Nowhere the people are bad. Simply the leaders are bad. The men, they are all the same everywhere, everywhere, human nature. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: After your meeting this morning with Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, he brought up this point that maybe it would be necessary to edit the books, because... Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It might be necessary to edit the books because in these countries when they start reading about God and how we say this government is rascal, rascal, this and that, that... Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Do you think it is necessary? Prabhupāda: It will be necessary when there will be criticism. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Later on, but at the present moment they have shown interest in our books, so we'll give it the way it is. Prabhupāda: Yes. That we can correct. There is no.... [break] ...is very good boy. Madhudviṣa(?): Jaya. Prabhupāda: I met you in Mexico? No. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Bombay last. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Two years ago in India I was here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is one good point. His father is the president of the biggest liquor company in the world, and he has his offices, I think, in China also. He goes to China. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Hong Kong. He has been to trade fairs in Peking. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are going for trade. Devotee: That's big. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya! Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa captured him, (laughs) that "You come to China. You'll be successful." And when you will ask me, I shall go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When? Prabhupāda: Among the higher, to speak among the higher circle, philosophical, I'll go immediately. *Hṛdayānanda: Jagad*-guru. Prabhupāda: Jaya. [break] ...to change your dress like gentleman. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's not difficult. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That doesn't matter. *Prabhupāda: Both of you become as gentlemen, American gentlemen. Kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya. Everyone. Yei kṛṣṇa*-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128]. [break] We shall talk on the philosophy, or distribution of equal wealth. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Prabhupāda: No, don't quote. Then they will drive you. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You talk on reasonable ground, that "You are in favor of giving everyone the same facility. So what do you mean by 'everyone'? Why you are selecting only your countrymen? Why? 'Everyone' means every living being." So what is their answer? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we agree to spread communism all over the world, and we'll give everyone equal rights. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So equal rights, why not to the animals? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they're not as important, they'll argue. They'll say that they're not as important. They're not so intelligent. They're just animals. Prabhupāda: Animals, but it appears to me that there are many men like animals, so why you are giving facility to them? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they can be elevated to the point of being men again. *Prabhupāda: So elevate them to the right point. Elevate them. You are elevating them only on the platform of eating, sleeping, mating. That is there in the animal. So you have to talk this philosophy. Our philosophy is that expanded*-not only human being but animals also. Our philosophy is, if there is one lizard in your room, I should see that he is not starving. This is our philosophy. Not only human being but animals, even an insect. We supply little sugar in the holes of the ant. That is our philosophy. We take any living being is the..., has the same propensity for eating, sleeping. So your economic problem is that "Supply sufficient eating, sleeping." So why not these animals? We have to speak on that platform, that our philosophy is so perfect that we do not neglect even an ant. Make this philosophy. "Why you are limiting within a country or within the human society? Expand it." *Pañca*-draviḍa: Prabhupāda, the Chinese don't neglect ants either. They eat them. The Chinese don't neglect the ants either. They eat everything. Prabhupāda: Then why do they protest when they are eaten by others? *Pañca*-draviḍa: (aside:) You'll have to add to the regular cooks...(?) *Siddha*-svarūpa: The greatest difficulty in our preaching in Chinese will not be their receptiveness but our inability to see them as living beings rather than seeing them as Chinese. The Americans.... In a sense, anybody who is in the bodily conception at all is going to see them as Chinese rather than living beings, so we'll have a tendency to be prejudicial from the very beginning, think of them as very low. So... Prabhupāda: No, we don't think anyone as low. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, so this will be difficult for the preachers, to see them not as Chinese but as actually Kṛṣṇa's servants too. *Prabhupāda: No, no, our devotees will not see like that. Our devotees will not see like that. [break] ...sama*-darśinaḥ. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. A paṇḍita is sama-darśī. He does not see anyone as low or high. That is paṇḍita. There is a verse in Bhagavad-gītā, "One who sees Me in everything and everything in Me..." What is that verse? *Guru*-kṛpā: Yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: Sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is wanted. Chinese Communist philosophy, does anybody know? What is that? What philosophy? They have got some philosophy. Hṛdayānanda: They're emphasizing industrial development. Everyone, the entire country, is mobilized for developing industry, economic benefits, so everyone can enjoy nice material life under... Prabhupāda: And that is the philosophy of the Western countries. Hṛdayānanda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Actually there is.... There is two factions in the Chinese schools now. One is saying to.... They're both materialistically based, but one is trying to stay on a position of self-sufficiency economically and not take from other countries or even trade, and the other school is to industrialize. And they're always fighting with their... Prabhupāda: Oh, there are two schools? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: And the school who is more for self-sufficiency in agriculture, they also have brought out the.... In the last eight years or so they've brought to the surface more spiritual ideas. Prabhupāda: Hm. So there is a section who'll support. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Who can support our movement. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we have to capture them. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They are more of a mystic yogi sort of school, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is also yoga, to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is yoga. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Revatīnandana: Actually that's Mao's... *Siddha*-svarūpa: If their main leader, Mao Tse Tung.... He's more of that school, but there are.... They call them revisionists. They say they're like the Russians, and that they're just.... They're always attacking them for wanting to copy the West. It's their same attack. They attack the Russians for becoming capitalists. They're puritan. They're trying to have pure communism. They have very great ideals, and the other school wants.... They think that they want to get in on the action of the trade and industrialization. But they are actually about equal in power. It's interesting. Right now, actually, it's very hard to get into China because there's a new feud that has come to the surface. There's top leaders that have been taken through the streets, denounced as being materialists, and they've taken their clothes from their wives' closets with mink coats and fancy clothes... Prabhupāda: No, first of all.... We shall first of all try to sell our books without any discussion. "As trade..., as trade representative, we have come. See our book." Go to the professors, go to the.... "We have got this support," like that. *Siddha*-svarūpa: As Vedic culture. Prabhupāda: Yes. Only for selling book. Hṛdayānanda: Like Satsvarūpa's men. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...they accept our books, that means gradually they are accepting our philosophy. Not immediately talk about philosophy. Just ordinary bookseller, you have come. (laughter) Madhudviṣa: Trojan horse. *Siddha-svarūpa: In their schools right now, their colleges, is a center of controversy, education. The one school of thought who are called revisionists-they are compared to the Russians*-they say that the schools should be centered almost entirely upon economic development and technology, and that philosophy, Communist philosophy, different.... In other words, different debates or thinking more, philosophically inclined people are rejected, so that now there is a fight between whether or not the schools will be centered simply for economic development or whether they're going to be centers of what they call revolutionary activities, thinking, trying to improve their Communist understanding and Communist ideology and more philosophically inclined. So those who are pushing for greater economic development at the expense of their Communist purity or their philosophical understanding, they are now being attacked. *Pañca*-draviḍa: As far as trade goes, actually Hong Kong belongs to China. It's on lease to the British government. The lease expires in twenty years or so. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Eight years. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Eight years. But the thing is, it's difficult for them to assume or take part in Hong Kong because it represents something like several million capitalists, which they have no use for in their country. For thirty years they've been training people in Communism. Their whole culture is centered around that Chinese language. Our books are in English, but their whole culture is... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Our Chinese *Gītā* is coming out. It should be ready in two weeks. Prabhupāda: It is not our policy that the whole country will be on our side. That is not.... At least some of them may be interested. That's all. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yaśodānandana Mahārāja says that the Chinese Bhagavad*-gītā is ready for publication. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's at the printer. It will be ready in two weeks. Revatīnandana: Another interesting thing about China is because they have such a huge population, in order to feed the population they've had to turn to production of agricultural products rather than meat. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only way. That is the only way. If you want to make them happy.... That we are preaching in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. Produce grains. Everyone will eat nicely, and they will be happy. Revatīnandana: Not only are they increasing grains, but because it's so much more economical to produce grains than to produce animals... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is natural. Revatīnandana: ...they are largely vegetarian. Prabhupāda: That is natural. Revatīnandana: It's a largely vegetarian country out of necessity, which may be good for preaching. Prabhupāda: Yes. So as soon as you find some hold, you can ask our Revatīnandana Mahārāja also to come there. [break] ...accept that we have come to sell books. To see the bookseller, to see the professors, to see.... That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: My passport is already like a businessman. I already.... I was thinking to do this for a long time. Prabhupāda: And therefore it was burst out last night. Do it. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: ...the statement by the leader, they put out this manifesto or something. He said that the boys should not get married until twenty-five years old, and that they should remain celibate and that they... Prabhupāda: Chinese people? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. And they're very strong on celibacy because he said that the.... If a person loses semen or if they masturbate or if they unnecessarily use their sexual energy, they'll go insane. Their brains will become very weak, and physically they'll become very weak. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. *Siddha*-svarūpa: In their philosophy, in their basic philosophy of life, the Chinese are very conservative, and they're called Puritan. They're described by the Western countries as the most Puritan country in the world. Prabhupāda: So I think this philosophy, no illicit sex, will be very much... *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. They'll very much appreciate that. Prabhupāda: And if you explain scientifically as you are explaining, that "This will spoil the brain, you cannot take nice things, so you must observe these rules..." *Siddha*-svarūpa: Part of their culture is basically.... It's deeply steeped in what's called Taoism, and it's.... An important part of that is retaining the semen for mental power. [break] Prabhupāda: So give them attention, yes, even at the..., as far as possible. Jaya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It may be possible for Dhṛṣṭadyumna's father to employ himself and myself in that business. Then I can go... Prabhupāda: Very easily. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...as their sales representative and at the same time be a representative for books... Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...because they already can go into China. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The Chinese are very afraid of the Russians, and they are afraid of the Russians in India. They are afraid of Russian-style communism in India, and Russians having bases. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Siddha*-svarūpa: A way of preaching is that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and Vedic communism is the only thing in India that would ultimately defeat the Russian-style communism. Then they would very much appreciate it. If they saw that India would go communist, then they'd rather have it Vedic communist than Russian communist. Their theory is that everybody must go communist for people to be, feel satisfied. [break] Madhudviṣa: That's their feeling. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A lot of people come every day. Prabhupāda: Oh. (Bengali) [break] ...be print in a booklet, that will help us. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Immediately. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have all the reviews with me. Prabhupāda: Ha. So immediately... Rādhāvallabha: You want the BBT to print, Śrīla Prabhupāda, or Gopāla Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hm? Rādhāvallabha: You want Gopāla Kṛṣṇa to print in India or you want us to print in Los Angeles? Prabhupāda: No, India. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can print in India. Prabhupāda: What is the wrong in India? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...reviews from big, big people in Delhi, that will be very helpful in Russia. Like the head of the Lok Sabha Research Library is giving a review on the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, and other Sanskrit scholars have also been approached, and they've all agreed to give reviews. Prabhupāda: Take these reviews. You print. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Print those. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of our men in our party did this. Before he even joined the movement, he had already done this for college. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. We went to the college, and we found this boy. He had done this for his class. We said, "Now you come with us." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "And be a devotee." Just by reading your books, without ever meeting any devo..., just by reading a book he understood how to do this. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, he made Lord Caitanya's... Prabhupāda: Dancing? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: ...effulgence. Prabhupāda: Oh. Very nice. (looking at photos) What is this? *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: This is Rādhā*-Dāmodara preaching. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is inside our bus, one of our buses. This is the bus. Inside, kīrtana, Deities from that bus. Brahmā dāsa, he is in charge. He is the leader of the bus. They're having kīrtana inside the bus. This is another bus. Ādi*-keśava. These are Deities in his bus. Prabhupāda: Who is this gentleman? Police? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This man? He's a military man. This is one of our airport distributors, distributing books. Here is the bus construction. You can see how they're building the buses. That's our head office in*-charge, Keśava-bhāratī. Prabhupāda: Where the head of office? It should... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it's in Phoenix, but it may be shifted soon to New York. Airport distribution. This is the installation of all the Deities you were attending in Chicago. That was a big ceremony. Prabhupāda: Oh. Chicago? Did I install? No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, you were present on the vyāsāsana... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...when the ceremony was performed. Here is some of our vans and men, Viṣṇujana and Rādhā*-Dāmodara. Here's the grandfather of airport book distribution, Tripurāri Mahārāja, dressed as a karmī to distribute in his distribution.... You can't tell, but he's wearing a wig. That's Tripurāri there. That's how he looks when he's in the airport. He never misses. *Guru*-kṛpā: The master of book distribution. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's Tripurāri giving a class. Here's a priest buying a Bhagavad*-gītā. Gurudāsa Mahārāja preaching on campus. Dhṛṣṭadyumna leading a kīrtana. Here's a television show. That was that television show. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And this is Kavicandra Prabhu. He's the leader of another bus. These are his Deities, and that is his bus and his men. Revatīnandana: [break] ...is that they are very interested in health, exercise, dancing, like that. They have huge, mass swoopings of... Prabhupāda: So introduce this dancing as health exercise dancing. Revatīnandana: They dance very gracefully. If we dance gracefully, instead of going like this, if we dance like this, they'll actually appreciate, because they have huge groups together, thousands and thousands, all dancing in unison. Prabhupāda: So why don't you take him also? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Dhṛṣṭa... Revatīnandana: No, I think it will be a while before it will be at that stage. At first it will be liquor company representatives. Prabhupāda: [break] ...you have come? Madhudviṣa: Wherefrom you have come? Man: Andhra. Yaśodānandana: Andhra? More Andhra men. (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 16, 1976, Mäyäpura Devotee (1): You want a loṭā for...? Prabhupāda: What for the loṭā is there? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: To water the tulasī. Prabhupāda: See is there any loṭā? Devotee (1): No loṭā. Prabhupāda: See how aparādhī, offender. They have used that loṭā for watering. Great offender. This is going on, mlecchas and yavanas. Jayapatākā: I don't know whose loṭā that is. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: I don't know whose loṭā that is. Prabhupāda: I know. It has been used for watering. Ramesvara: Prabhupāda discovered, it came from the bathroom. Prabhupāda: Who is that rascals? Huh? Who took it from the bathroom, toilet room? Jayapatākā: That was in the toilet room? Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know? You have not used that loṭā? Jayapatākā: No. Prabhupāda: You never use that toilet? Jayapatākā: No, not since you've been using it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: Since you've been using it I have never entered that toilet. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Before that. Jayapatākā: Before that, loṭā wasn't there. There was another loṭā for the bathroom. Prabhupāda: Then who kept that loṭā? I used that loṭā. I know. I was acquainted with this loṭā. Jayapatākā: That was your personal, I think. Prabhupāda: Personal... Before I used that toilet, the loṭā was there. No, one who has used that, he has no sense how to water tulasī plant. He should be instructed, who has done it, that "You never use that toilet loṭā." [break] ...observing fast day today? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Up to? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Moonrise. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...ist countries they accept a leader. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Do they not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: So before they became communist, they had some leader or not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the Czar in Russia. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Czar was the leader in Russia. *Jayatīrtha: And Chiang Kai*-shek in China. Prabhupāda: So why they changed their leader? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a revolution. Madhudviṣa: People were unsatisfied. Prabhupāda: Eh? Madhudviṣa: People were not satisfied with the government. There was a revolution. Prabhupāda: No, people were not satisfied... The principle, what is the principle? To have better leader. Is it not? So if they get still better leader, why they will not change? Madhudviṣa: They would say it's not the leader but it's the system. Prabhupāda: Whatever... The system is done by some leaders. Anything... Just like our, this system we have introduced. I am the leader. Similarly, a leader is changed for betterment of the situation. So if the communists and those who have brain, if they find a better leader for better situation, why they'll not? And they want for revolution also. They are in favor of revolution. Their theory is that periodically there must be revolution. That is their theory. I talked with Professor Kotovsky. So why they will not accept another revolution for further advancement? Madhudviṣa: One of the main problems I can see is to divorce our movement from religious concept because... *Prabhupāda: It is not the question of religious concept. This is nonsense. You have to... Just like when Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]*-that is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā-so does it mean a religion? Then why these nonsense take it as religion? It is a fact. How you can neglect the fact? Eh? Kaumāraṁ yauvanam jara. A baby becoming a boy, boy becoming a young man, is it religion? Either Hindu or Muslim or Christian or Buddha, everyone is becoming like that. Where is religion? Why do they take it as religion? Satsvarūpa: It's religion because it's not empirical fact. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: It's not an empirical fact. Prabhupāda: What is that empirical fact? Satsvarūpa: That after you die, you take another body. Prabhupāda: Apart from that, why, how the baby is becoming a boy? This is a fact. How a baby is becoming a child, a child is becoming a boy, a boy is becoming young man, a young man is becoming middle aged? Does it mean... Is it a particular type of religious system? Why this nonsense? What kind of intelligent person they are? It is a fact. Now we come to the old age. So I have come to the point of old age body after so many stages. Then where is the next? The next is tathā dehāntara: he'll get another body. This is very common sense. Madhudviṣa: They won't accept that. Prabhupāda: That means a rascal. Why should you not...? You answer, then what is next? Madhudviṣa: They will say he is finished. Prabhupāda: No, how it can be finished? How it can be finished? If you have come stage by stage by stage... It is finished to your eyes. Just like the sunshine is there. "In the evening there will be no more sun; it is finished." What is this nonsense? Is it finished? A rascal may say it is finished. Rūpānuga: Out of sight, they say it is finished. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this thing you have to convince them. Why should you allow them to remain a rascal? Now the sun is rising. Does it mean all of a sudden a sun is created? So these are the examples. You have to preach like that. Simply believe your eyes? You believe also there was no sun; now it is sun. That means all of a sudden a sun became created. See the intelligent persons and convince them. Yad yad ācārati śreṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. Pick up the best man. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He picked up the best men, Sanātana Gosvāmī, Rūpa Gosvāmī. So His movement became successful. Sanātana Gosvāmī was not an ordinary man. Very educated, learned brāhmaṇa and minister, Caitanya Mahāprabhu picked up. Similarly Rūpa Gosvāmī, similarly Jīva Gosvāmī. Picked up means by His preaching they became converted. So similarly pick up a person like Sanātana Gosvāmī, intelligent, in position, and try to convince him. Why he will not be convinced, if he's a human being? This is not religion. That I am breathing, what is this breathing? Eh? What is the breathing? *Guru*-kṛpā: Air going in and out. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, when the breathing is stopped, why don't you manufacture some machine that breathing will come again? Why you cannot do it? Everyone knows it is air. Put some machine within and let there be breathing. Tell me why you cannot do it? Mahendra: They have some machines like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Then you are another rascal. Who is this rascal? Mahendra: They have some machines. Prabhupāda: And don't spoil time like that, "They have got a machine." What is that machine? Mahendra: Machines are not living. Prabhupāda: And don't create unnecessary talks. What is that machine? They have a machine? What is that nonsense machine? Eh? Who knows that machine? Eh? *Guru*-kṛpā: It's called an air respirator. Prabhupāda: But can it bring life? *Guru*-kṛpā: No. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of that machine? What is the use of that machine? Everyone knows that it is air. Now air is stopped. That is my reject(?). Bring that air again. There is ample air. Bring that machine. Simply... Similarly, if you analyze the whole body, it is confirmed, you will find these five elements, that 's all, earth, water, air, fire, sky. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's scientific. No one denies that. Prabhupāda: Yes. They why don't you create a body? What is your science? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You've just pointed out: the body may already be there, but they cannot replace the life. Even a body is already created, like a dead body, but they can't bring life back into it. *Prabhupāda: Then what is that life? That is the question. That life is soul. You have to accept. [break] ...car stop. Some machine broken. As soon as the machine is placed, now the motor car is fit for running, but not for the machine, but for the driver. When the driver is not there, you cannot create or purchase a driver. That is not possible. You can repair the machine, but without driver the machine will not run. So why they should be blind about this fact? What is this knowledge, advancement of knowledge? The body is created. If it is accepted*-body is created by these material elements-now create another body. Just like dollmakers make a body, you also make a body, very beautiful woman, and give it life. Why they cannot do it? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But even accepting that the soul is the living force, they may say that "Well, we're living in this material world and we have to deal with matter, so what is the importance of all this knowledge?" Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They may say that "We're living in the material world in spite of this knowledge, so we have to deal with material circumstances." Prabhupāda: But you do not like to die. Why do you die with your material knowledge? Nobody wants to die but why you die? Then where is your material knowledge. You do not like to be old man. Where is your material knowledge that you can stop old age? Then you have to accept that your material knowledge is not perfect. Why you are so much proud of this false knowledge? Unnecessarily. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we don't see that you are able to stop death. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We agree that it would be nice to stop death, but where is... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, we know. You learn from us. We know. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. This is the process. Bhavananda: But we haven't seen that anyone in your movement... Prabhupāda: Again "seeing," condemned seeing. Your seeing is like that, that "The sun has come all of a sudden." That is your seeing. "And when the sun is not there, the sun dead." That is your seeing. This is rascal seeing, animal seeing. Madhudviṣa: Then you want us to have faith. Prabhupāda: No faith. It is knowledge. Madhudviṣa: If I can't see, then it means faith. Prabhupāda: No, you can't see. You are rascal; how you will see? Just like an astrologer can say it is going to happen. You cannot see, but he can see. Madhudviṣa: That means I have to have faith, though. Prabhupāda: It is not faith. It is fact. If I say that "At 6:30 in the evening there will be no sun," it is not faith; it is fact. But a rascal does not say... "No, why? The sun is there. Why there will be no sun?" But intelligent man will say, "No, there will be no sun." It is neither astrology, neither anything. It is knowledge. You have no knowledge; you do not know. I have knowledge; I can tell. That is the way. Madhudviṣa: But I must believe that knowledge. Prabhupāda: But you are rascal, "I believe." Learn how to believe it, how to see it. Madhudviṣa: But I have another teacher who can teach me something I can see. *Prabhupāda: Paśyanti jñāna*-cakṣuṣā. Paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣā. If you have got knowledge, then you can see. But you have no knowledge. How you can see? Therefore you have to go to a person where you get the knowledge. Then you will see. Another example is that in the desert the animal is seeing there is water. *Guru*-kṛpā: Mirage. Prabhupāda: He is seeing. And the man knows that there is no water. That is the difference between animal and man. The animal cannot see. The man can see. So become a perfect man. Then you'll see everything. Trivikrama: Another example you give. When we see the sun it looks like a small disk. Prabhupāda: There are so many examples. Why you believe your rascal eyes? Why you are proud of seeing? You cannot see. Devotee: They may say in relation to that... Prabhupāda: You have got the same eyes, but when it is dark you cannot see. Then what is the value of your eyes? You see under condition. That is not absolute. [break] ...should be informed that why you have changed? Now, the Russian and Chinese, first of all they began believing Lenin or Marx. Madhudviṣa: Marx was the original. Prabhupāda: Now they are not in agreement. Why? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They saw practically... It was impractical. Prabhupāda: That means for advancement of knowledge you have to change. They accept this theory, revolution. So if you get better situation, why you'll not change? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They accept a better theory when it is presented. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is presented. This is the beginning, that "Your knowledge is imperfect. You are believing your eyes, but that is not perfect knowledge. You have to see with knowledge." Paśyati jñāna... Paśyanti jñāna*-cakṣuṣā. Śāstra-cakṣuṣāt. That is seeing, not seeing like a child. A child is seeing, a motor car is running, a airplane is running. He thinks a wonderful machine, but it is not the machine. It is the pilot. It is the driver. A child cannot see it. The father knows that it is not the machine. The machine may be however perfectly made; it cannot run. There must be a perfect pilot also. Just like we get on aeroplane. There are hundreds of men. If there is any trouble, then the pilot can stop it, not the hundreds of men. Mahendra: In these Communist countries, Śrīla Prabhupāda, such as Russia... Prabhupāda: Not Communist country, everywhere, a pilot is required. Not Communist country. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Every country has a leader. Prabhupāda: Yes. So these... All this ism, Communism, this ism, this ism, beginning from that Greek history, so many changes have been made in Europe, leaders, sometimes Napoleon, sometimes Mussolini, sometimes Hitler. It is going on. So where is the perfect situation? You have changed so many leaders for so many years in the history, but where is your perfect situation? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have one leader, and our situation is perfect, and we are not changing that leader. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is perfection. We have taken Kṛṣṇa as leader. We are not taking any other leader. Mahāṁśa: In thousands of years. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hundreds and thousands of years. Prabhupāda: Millions of years. *Mahāṁśa: So many constitutions, they have been amended so many times. But the Bhagavad*-gītā has not been amended since so many millions of years. *Prabhupāda: It cannot be amended. Just like this rule, dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. When the change of body, how you can change the rule? A perfect definition. You cannot change it. [break] ...religion, the so*-called religion, it is changed. Formerly there was no Christianity and now Christianity. Now, from Christianity, so many others, so many others. That is not religion. Revatīnandana: If you say that your leader is perfect and you do not change your leader, we see that in India... This is where Kṛṣṇa came. He is your leader, but they do not follow Kṛṣṇa any more and India is in trouble. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the right thing. Revatīnandana: But why do they not follow if He is perfect leader? Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. Revatīnandana: They argue like that. Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. Just like father says, "Child do this," but he does not do. Father says, "Don't touch fire;" he touches, so he'll suffer. Madhudviṣa: They can also say that about their leader. They can say that according to Marx, if everyone followed Marx purely, then the Communist system would be running on... Prabhupāda: No, no, what is the purity? Madhudviṣa: Well, the pure Communist philosophy. Prabhupāda: What is that pure Communist philosophy? State. We state, "This is our philosophy." What is the Marx philosophy? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ultimately, they say there should be no leader. Everything will work automatically. Prabhupāda: But you have leader, rascal. Why do you say no leader? Immediately take shoes and beat with them. Mahendra: They say that in the future there will be no leaders. Prabhupāda: Again beat threes, thrice. But we are not so fool that we are going to believe in your future postdated check. We are not so fool. Present right check. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We don't accept blindly. Prabhupāda: Immediately payable. Then we accept. Madhudviṣa: They will accept that there has to be a leader... Prabhupāda: Yes, they must have. They must have. Madhudviṣa: But the leader should not be a person which is held in esteem for his personality but simply a person who is guiding the system. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Then that is Kṛṣṇa. He is giving this leader. This is a fact. Trivikrama: And their leader can never be perfect. Prabhupāda: No, no. Trivikrama: The Communist leader. Prabhupāda: You can become perfect if you follow a perfect leader. That's all. Lokanātha: Just like some gurus say there is no need of guru. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The trouble is, their system is not perfect. Our system is... Prabhupāda: How it can be? Because the leader who introduced this system is a rascal, so how the system can be perfect? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like you pointed out yesterday that Communism holds that everyone should have an equal right, but, you pointed out, then why do they limit that simply to human beings? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is imperfect system. Prabhupāda: Why they become sectarian? Madhudviṣa: They will say this is the natural development. When a system develops to this size there will be... Prabhupāda: That you cannot change, natural development. You rascal, why you become leader? I don't require your leadership if everything is going on by nature. Madhudviṣa: No, it requires a guide. Prabhupāda: No, because you are rascal, you are under nature. So how you can guide me? Your position is the same. You are blind; I am blind. How you can lead me? Madhudviṣa: They won't say that. Prabhupāda: So they won't say means... Madhudviṣa: They say that... Prabhupāda: Why shall I accept a blind leader? If a blind... I am blind, and if a blind man says, "Come on, I shall guide you," why shall I accept that leader? Madhudviṣa: Their contention is not that, though. Their contention is that Mao Tse Tung, along with being the political leader, is also the spiritual guide of the people. Prabhupāda: Political, social is not. The leader must be perfect. If the leader is blind, how can I accept such blind leader? I am blind man. What is the use? I am blind; therefore I am asking, "Can you help me to cross the road?" Another blind, "Yes, yes, come on, I shall." Why shall I accept? First of all I shall ask, "You have got eyes?" "No, I am also blind." What is this nonsense? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do they admit their leader to be blind? Devotee: No. They use their leader's book as Bible. Prabhupāda: Then why you change? Why you change? Devotee: They don't change. They follow Mao. Prabhupāda: Yes. They... They say there is necessity of revolution. The Communist theory they accept, that periodically there is need of revolution. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But it all culminates. Madhudviṣa: That's not to change. That's not to change. Prabhupāda: You have change, change of the system. Madhudviṣa: No, that's not to change the system. That's to purify it. Prabhupāda: That change of the leader... Madhudviṣa: That's to purge the system. Revatīnandana: Continuous purification. Prabhupāda: That's means... Purge out means it is not perfect. Madhudviṣa: No, they will say that in any system... Prabhupāda: No, no. Madhudviṣa: ...over the years they are dealing with millions of people. Prabhupāda: No, but if I can give you any system which is perfect, why you'll not accept it? Why you are so fool? Madhudviṣa: Then, if you can give a system that people will not deviate? Prabhupāda: Eh? Madhudviṣa: Any system people can deviate from... Prabhupāda: No, no, deviate, that you have got independence to deviate from anything. Madhudviṣa: So that is the imperfection. Prabhupāda: That is your imperfection. Madhudviṣa: So they will say that is the imperfection in Communism, also, that the system is perfect but we have imperfect people. Prabhupāda: But if there is an ism where there is no such defects, why should you not accept it? Madhudviṣa: But there is defects, though. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can point out even within our own movement the different people who don't follow. Trivikrama: Don't follow but the system is perfect. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they'll say their system is also perfect, but there's some that don't follow. Trivikrama: No, but their system is not perfect. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That you have to establish. Bhāgavata: So it didn't save the man who created it. The man who founded the philosophy, it didn't save him. Madhudviṣa: What does it mean the saving? He died like everyone else. Trivikrama: Saving means saving from lust and all these things. There's so much... They're servants of their senses. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone requires leader, yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they are changing leaders one after another because they think that the present leader will satisfy their present desires more. Prabhupāda: The leader, perfect leader, is God. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānāṁ (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That nitya and cetana, all living entities, we are eternal, and we are conscious. And He is the supreme conscious. Therefore God means Supreme Being. You take His leadership. Then He'll properly guide you. That is our philosophy. Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, actually, I think it was either Marx or... *Prabhupāda: But the leader says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo: [Bg. 18.66] "I shall give you protection from all pitfalls." This is. We also accept leader, but the most perfect leader, who can actually give me protection from all dangers. So Śrīdhara, when you go, you take some letters from me. So what happened about Ganguli? [break] ...this nature. Just like a child is born. Immediately requires protection by mother. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What... Śrīla Prabhupāda, what are the qualifications of a perfect leader? *Prabhupāda: No mistake, no illusion, no cheating, no imperfection. Anyone who commits mistake, he's illusioned, he's a cheater and imperfect*-he cannot lead. So bring any leader of these rascal groups and test with these four principles; he is misleader. Trivikrama: They're all servants of their senses. *Madhudviṣa: They will also say that within our movement the so*-called leaders also have imperfections. Prabhupāda: Eh? Madhudviṣa: They will say, within our movement, that the leaders also have imperfection. Prabhupāda: No imperfection. Trivikrama: No imperfection. Madhudviṣa: They will say, "Yes, we can give you examples." Prabhupāda: No. No, no. Why? Why you shall accept? They will say. Because therefore they are saying, we shall accept? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's Prabhupāda. Here's Prabhupāda *Trivikrama: The so*-called leaders, maybe they are imperfect, but the real leader, He is perfect. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is test of. Madhudviṣa: They will say, "He is also makes mistakes." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is that mistake? Prabhupāda: No, there is no mistake. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have not seen any mistakes. Gurudāsa: Where is the mistake? Prabhupāda: There is no mistake. Gurudāsa: Jaya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What would you define... Prabhupāda: If you think your leader is mistaken, then you are mistaken. (laughter) Mahendra: Like a mirror. You see a mistake but it's yourself. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: The leader of mistake*-therefore immediately gives evidence from śāstra. What is the use of quoting from the śāstra? "Just to prove that I am not mistaken, here is the proof." Madhudviṣa: They would say that there is a way of life which is perfect, but all men are imperfect. There is a way of life. Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore they... Because you are imperfect, therefore you have to accept the leadership of a perfect person. Madhudviṣa: They will say no one is perfect. Prabhupāda: No, that is the... That is your ignorance. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have never seen... Prabhupāda: Now, just like blind man says, "Nobody is with eyes. Because I am blind, so everyone is blind." Ātmavat manyate jagat. That is the way. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the whole thing is actually nonsense because Marx himself in his old age became senile and died in a crazy condition. Prabhupāda: Yes, he must be. He was crazy always. Many, many leaders die like that. Trivikrama: Every leader. Madhudviṣa: They will point out that our ācāryas also died. You say that Marx died, so they will say, "Your ācāryas also died." Prabhupāda: Dying, that... There is difference of dying. But nobody, he died... They did not die a crazy. That is the superexcellence. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he died gloriously. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that, that he prepared himself, "Now I am going to die. Now I am sleeping. You just pierce with your arrow." So where is that death? Even that death is perfect. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's glorified from time immemorial. Trivikrama: Like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Prabhupāda: Actually it is not death, but if you take it as death, that is also glorified. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's wonderful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at Lord Caitanya's disappearance. Wonderful. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A leader means that he's following a system. So what are the criterion of...? Prabhupāda: That already told. He does not commit any mistake. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that I understand. Prabhupāda: He is not illusioned, he is not a cheater, and he is perfect. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So now you've defined a perfect leader. What is a perfect system? What are the criterion for a perfect system? Prabhupāda: Perfect system means from which we do not suffer. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No suffering. Prabhupāda: No suffering. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the main criterion. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are always hankering after happiness. So we do not like suffering. So if there is no suffering, that is perfect system. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can you point out any time in history when there existed such a perfect system? Prabhupāda: It is always existing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even now? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise why you are sticking to this? This is the proof. You are all young men, you have given up everything. Why you are sticking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Revatinandana: In the West so many young men are joining different groups? Prabhupāda: They may be rascals. Therefore, therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu... [break] ...told me it is full. But people coming and going, it looks very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like a house when it has no occupants, it's not so nice as when there are people moving about. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Canakya Paṇḍita says, putra*-hīnaṁ gṛhaṁ śūnyam: "In a home where there is no children, sons and daughters, it is zero." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like a body without a soul. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitya*-guru... (Bengali) [break] You are not going to China? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we not so impressed by roṭī here, but it is really a... Prabhupāda: Very nice, a good news. You are eating nicely. That gives me pleasure. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everybody is so satisfied. This... What is it? Shantilal is just a wonderful cook. Prabhupāda: So just give him the leadership of cooking everywhere. When the prasāda is supplied? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At one o'clock. Prabhupāda: So you can send me at half past one? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, yes, it can be kept warm very easily. Hot capatis, he says, for hundreds of people. Prabhupāda: Hot. That is wanted. That I had asked. Therefore it is so filling. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, everything is hot. [break] ...so... Prabhupāda: No, no. Prasādam, when it is supplied from the temple, in any condition it is prasādam. So communists should be impressed that "You are trying to establish a perfect society. That is your philosophy. So unless there is perfect leader, how you can establish?" This is the way. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we know what the qualities of a perfect leader are. "We don't find that you have any such persons." Prabhupāda: No, phalena paricīyate, by result. (kīrtana as they approach temple) (end) *Room Conversation With Rädhä*-Dämodara Saìkértana Party--March 16, 1976, Mayapur Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You lead them, Gargamuni. The other men can stand out here (?) [break] Devotees: Jaya! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Move in. Move in more. O.K. Some men can come through the other room and stand out here. Devotee: Those prabhus are going to have to go around. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You lead them, Gargamuni. Prabhupāda: Get this fan on. Fan and lights. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fan and lights. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: Em. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: On behalf of all the bhaktas and Rādhā Dāmodara, we'd like to offer you this dakṣiṇā. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya. *Prabhupāda: You know, if Kṛṣṇa is virāḍ*-rūpa, so big mouth, so big belly, that, whatever you give, that is not sufficient. So here we are spreading Kṛṣṇa's mouth very widespread. Here is the plan for Māyāpura temple. This is the.... This is only residential quarter. Real temple is not yet constructed. It will occupy 350 acres of land. So you are the pillars of this construction work. We are doing all your construction work on your contribution. So go on preaching and distributing books. If we get the.... We are.... Books are.... As your pushing on the sale is very nice, then the customers are also there. These are American Express? No, no. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Barclay's Bank. Prabhupāda: Now everyone is issuing these traveler's check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But these are issued differently. In American Express, they charge some money, but these are freely given. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Then why the American Express will remain if people will go there? Free service to the constituent, those who are customer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think even to those who are not the constituents also. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. The public also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This happens to be our bank that we deal with. Prabhupāda: Barclay Bank is big bank, American bank. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This Ādi*-keśava Swami, his grandfather is Mr. Barclay. (laughter) Prabhupāda: It is grandfather's bank? *Ādi*-keśava: Great-uncle. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Great*-uncle. Prabhupāda: You are Mr. Barclay also? No. *Ādi*-keśava: Different name. Prabhupāda: So our.... They are accommodated in how many buses? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Currently in six buses and six airports, because Tripurāri Mahārāja leads about twenty*-five men distributing in different airports around the country, and then there's another hundred men who are working out of six buses. Now two more buses are being built to accommodate everyone. And then another ten men are working at our bus construction head office. Prabhupāda: So, of course, you are not going to be absent for many, many days. You come and go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There won't be any difficulty, because every... Prabhupāda: They are trained up. That is the.... Training, that is the real perfection. Our Tripurāri Mahārāja is there, and Viṣṇujana Mahārāja. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja is very expert, and Madhudviṣa Swami will be helping them. *Prabhupāda: A devotee's one qualification is dakṣa, dakṣa, expert. Out of the twenty*-six qualifications, a devotee is always very expert in dealing. It is not that because they have left anything material, they do not know how to deal with material things. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī did it. Perhaps you know the story. Political. Although he had nothing to do with material things, when there was a political game (gain?) he tackled it very nicely when he was young man. But devotee, although not interested in material things, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake they deal with material things very expertly. That should be the qualification of a devotee, expert. Not that "I have nothing to do with these material things." No. The devotee's vision is: in everything there is Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. Just like we are using this dictaphone and tape record. It is material things. Sometimes they accuse that "You are against material things. Why you are using these material advantages?" Do they not? You do not meet such men? *Ādi*-keśava: Yes. *Prabhupāda: But for us there is nothing material. We have no such vision as "material" and "spiritual." Material means when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right. That is material. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. He is the proprietor; He is the enjoyer. So, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything Kṛṣṇa's. So when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right on everything, that is material. Otherwise there is nothing material; everything spiritual. Everything is generated by Kṛṣṇa's energies, and there are two energies, material energy and spiritual energy. So in the material energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is less or nil. And in spiritual energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is prominent and very acute. I think I give this example somewhere. Just like this nail, and just little below, there is skin. Both of them are my body, but in the skin there is sensation; *in the nail there is no sensation. But both of them are coming from the same source, the body. Similarly, everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. Everything is Bhagavān but appears like different to the different vision. Therefore we take everything.... kṛṣṇa*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Everything..., in everything there is Kṛṣṇa's relationship. So there is no question of giving it up. Why shall I give it up? This is Kṛṣṇa's property. Why shall I give it up, prāpañcikatayā buddhyā, by mistaking it as material? Kṛṣṇa-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. So these Māyāvādīs, they say the brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "This material world is false, and Brahman is reality." And we don't say that. Everything is reality because it comes from reality. When it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is unreality. It is not properly being used. Otherwise there is no such thing as unreality, because it is coming from reality. So why shall I give it up, tyāga? Neither tyāga, neither bhoga. Everything utilize for Kṛṣṇa. This is our way. Any question on this regard? I saw your wife also. She is here. Bhagavān: Yes. She is here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Practically all of these devotees are so much dedicated to book distribution that they are going out now nearly seven days a week, without stoppage. Prabhupāda: Utsāhān. *Utsāha is the basic principle, utsāhān and sādhu*-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], association of sādhu. Simply utsāhān and the association is not sādhu-then it is material. Utsāhān means association of sādhu. Sādhu means devotee. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Who is sādhu? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. One who has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa, he is sādhu. So the association of such sādhu.... Sādhu, sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge. Whatever a sādhu does, there is no fault. Everything is right. But still, because we are in this material world, we shall act in such a way that nobody can accuse us. Sato vṛtteḥ. Sādhu is above all this vṛtti, but still, you keep pace with the material world, otherwise your activities will be hampered. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has said sato vṛtti: "The dealings should be very honest." Sato vṛtteḥ sādhu saṅge, ṣaḍbhiḥ, six items. Utsāhān, enthusiasm; *dhairyāt, patience. Utsāhān dhairyāt niścayāt, with confidence. So enthusiasm, patience, confidence. Tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt. You have to act according to the prescribed way, and sato vṛtteḥ, and dealings very honest, and sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. Everything perfect. So where you all staying? In new quarters? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we have been very fortunate. They have given us.... Just as you have this wing, they have given us the whole wing on the next floor above. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very comfortably situated. *Prabhupāda: Everything, water supply, everything is there? In the beginning I thought that "Such a big building. Who will come and live here?" (laughter) It is that Matsyāvatāra. You know Matsyāvatāra? Keśava dhṛta*-mīna-śarīra, jaya jagadīśa hare. That one muni, he took water in his pot. He saw a fish. So after some time he saw the fish has grown, that it cannot be kept in that kamaṇḍalu. Then he gave more space. Then after some, he saw, He has.... "It is filled up." Again more, again more. Then he threw it in the ocean, and again still big. (chuckles) That is Kṛṣṇa. Pralaya-payodhi-jale dhṛtavān asi vedam **. And who knows this song, *Similarly Varāha*-mūrti also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? When I was very young, in the house I was living in.... My friend, his father was from Louisiana, where they have many alligators. This was in New York. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Louisiana means near, around Florida. Prabhupāda: Oh. Many? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Alligators, crocodiles. Prabhupāda: Crocodile. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So one day his father brought him two little crocodiles as a pet back to New York, where we were living. So he was keeping them in the bathtub. But just as you described, they started to grow, and eventually they became so big that he had to keep them in the house, and then they were running. And anyone that would come in, they would run. (laughter) Finally they had... Prabhupāda: Very ferocious. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had to give them to the zoo. New York Zoo. Prabhupāda: But I understand they can be tamed also. Is it possible? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think so. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Miami where I grew up, they used to have a crocodile fight. What they would do, they would feed the crocodiles until they were completely sleepy; then they would fight with them, so they couldn't move around so good. Devotee (2): Sometimes they take their teeth out. *Prabhupāda: Then what remains? The teeth is dangerous. Yes, how condemned life. And we had to pass through all these. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi. Nine lakhs of forms in the water. Crocodile is one of these. Just see how accurate is Vedic information. Never says "ten lakhs" or "eight lakhs." Nine lakhs. Now, if you don't believe, count. Go ahead. Count. How this knowledge is there? Nobody can go within the water to count how many forms are there, but how the Vedas gives the knowledge perfectly? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. This is Vedic knowledge. Where you cannot reach and you refer to Vedas, you'll get the knowledge. That is Vedas, perfect knowledge. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given the example: stool is impure, rejectable. Everyone knows. Veda says, "No, cow dung is pure." And you examine it; *you'll find it is pure. That is Vedic knowledge. When you get information from the Vedas, it is perfectly right. So it is easier to take knowledge from the Vedas. Then you'll become perfect in knowledge. There is no question of researching. That is not possible. What you'll research? How many animals are there, aquatics are there, in the water? It is beyond your experience. Is there any scientist who can go within the water and count how many aquatic forms are there? Nothing you can do. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣā viṁśati.(?)What information we have got? Even you cannot speak perfectly well about this universe. We are not able even to speak perfectly what is there in the moon planet. They are going, trying to go, and coming back. And still, they are claiming perfection as perfect as God. Just see how lunatic they are. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that the newly initiated brāhmaṇas have to come now. Maybe we should... Prabhupāda: So some meeting is not going to be held down? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there's constantly kīrtanas and discourses. Prabhupāda: Lecture. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lectures and kīrtanas. Prabhupāda: Kīrtanas. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's soldier to fight with māyā. Devotees: Jaya! *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are our commander*-in-chief, Prabhupāda. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself says, ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo. When He.... In Caitanya*-caritāmṛta you have seen? In the first part you can find out this verse, ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo. Devotee: There's a song like that also. Prabhupāda: What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says it may be in a song also, one of the Vaiṣṇava songs. Prabhupāda: The first part. Here, this is first part of the... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Look in the index. Prabhupāda: Index. You can read it. So you are reading books also. Not selling but reading also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really they are soldiers because many of them have been very severely beaten by police authorities and others during the distribution. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The men who are here now in this room, some of them have been put in jails.... (aside:) Watch out for that thing. Put in jails and beaten just for distributing these books. Prabhupāda: So there is no legal action? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in the courts. Tripurāri: Some places the police have a conspiracy against our devotees. Prabhupāda: What is our fault? Tripurāri: We have no fault except that we are successful. We are so successful, and they are envious. Prabhupāda: That they don't want. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The people want, but the authorities don't want. Prabhupāda: You have found out? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, I.... The index is not there, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: There is no index? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No index. First chapter? *Prabhupāda: No, how you'll find it? Give me. Unless you have an index, list.... The purport of the verse is that even Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu-He is God himself, Kṛṣṇa Himself*-He felt, alone, unable to do this task. He felt. So this is the position. You are cooperating; therefore I am getting the credit. Otherwise alone what could I do? Ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo. Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself wanted our cooperation. He is God, Kṛṣṇa. And therefore cooperation is very important thing. Nobody should think that "I have got so great ability. I can do." No. It is simply by cooperation we can do very big thing. "United we stand; divided we fall." This is our.... So be strong in pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Kṛṣṇa will help. He is the strongest. Still, we must be combined together. Saṅkīrtana. Saṅkīrtana means many men combined together chanting. That is saṅkīrtana. Otherwise kīrtana. Saṅkīrtana. Bahubhir militvā kīrtayeti saṅkīrtana.(?) Bahu. Bahu means many, many combined together. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, combined together. All nations, all persons they should combine together. There is hope in our society, combination. There are Hindus; there are Muslims; there are Christians; there are black, white. Combine them. That looks very beautiful, just like combination of many flowers. There is black flower also. It looks nice, very nice. Each and every flower take alone; *it is not beautiful, but when they are combined together, it looks very beautiful. It is attractive. And that is wanted. Because from the spiritual platform we are all working. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Spiritual platform, every one of us, we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. So where is the competition between one servant with another? There is.... Even there is competition, the center is Kṛṣṇa-"Who can serve more?" Therefore that competition is very welcome, because there is no personal interest. Everyone is trying how to serve Kṛṣṇa more. That is wanted. The competition is there in his real form and perverted form. In the real form Kṛṣṇa is the center, and the perverted form, I am the center. I compete with you to satisfy my senses more. What is called? Heliocentric or...? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Egocentric. Prabhupāda: Egocentric, yes. This is egocentric. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should be Kṛṣṇa*-centric. Prabhupāda: Yes, then it is perfect. The competition must remain. The others, they say, "Why competition? Make it zero." That is imperfect. But competition to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is reality. *Devotee (3): I found the verse. It's in "Ohe Vaiṣṇava Ṭhākura." Ekākī āmāra nāhi pāya bolo, hari*-nāma-saṅkīrtane. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, not this verse. What is the meaning? Devotee (3): Meaning is, "I do not find the strength to carry on alone the saṅkīrtana of the holy name of Hari. Please bless me by giving me just one drop of faith with which one can attain the great treasure of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: So nobody is powerful alone. In Kṛṣṇa's service also, combine together. That is wanted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think there is no question of being alone anywhere, because the guru is always with one. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the ideal. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Guru is also depending, and combination means I depend on you, you depend on me, that's all. That is combination. That's all. So prasādam? Now, we are fasting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are fasting. Prabhupāda: In the evening there will be prasādam. Arrangement is being made for? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are taking very nice care of us here, Prabhupāda. Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! Prabhupāda: Next year it will be very nice. Our, these rooms will be complete. I think this year also, not very much inconvenience. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not at all. Prabhupāda: In Bengali there is a proverb, "If you are good men, then you can accommodate yourself lying in a leaf of the tamarind." You know the tamarind leaf? That is the smallest leaf of the tree. Big tree, and the leaf is very small. (Bengali) And just contrary to that. These are American tape recorder or Japanese? Devotee: Japanese. Prabhupāda: All right. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! (obeisances) *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. All glories to the saṅkīrtana party, Rādhā*-Dāmodara. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Jaya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, we signed only the two top checks. The left we left blank so you can do whatever you want. You can fill in whatever you want on the inside. Prabhupāda: That is good. (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 17, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: They'll come like that. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Trivikrama: The road must be bigger. Devotee (1): Two lanes. They'll probably have... *Prabhupāda: Within that temple, there will be the tree of planetary system, electric bulb, and they'll move round. And upon that, sun will run. That requires electrical mechanism. [break] ...all side, other, different planets, Vaikuṇṭha*-loka.... There will be escalator to go. Yaśodānandana: I think in some of the Western countries they have these elevators with brass windows all around, so that one can, even though he's going up, he still sees all around. It would be very fascinating for these people. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What to speak of escalators? Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What to speak of escalators? Yaśodānandana: And that light system. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: People will pay just to get on that escalator every day. (laughter) *Pañca*-draviḍa: In Los Angeles they have installed a speed walk at the airport, an escalator that you can walk on. Prabhupāda: So you are not going to Calcutta? Calcutta? Jayapatākā: I was going to go in a day or two. Prabhupāda: So there is no news? [break] Of course, if there is devotee. Otherwise not. Hṛdayānanda: I was thinking perhaps this year to begin with one car. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. Last year, Philadelphia, there was one car. Oh, crowd was.... Like that. *Pañca*-draviḍa: If there's no Jagannātha Deities we can use...? Prabhupāda: No, no. Jagannātha. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Has to be Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: Don't try to manufacture ideas. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Most.... Most of our temples, we have no Jagannātha Deities. Hṛdayānanda: Anyway, it will be arranged. Madhudviṣa: You can get some Jagannātha Deities here in India, big ones. Hṛdayānanda: Yes, that's not very difficult to do. [break] Prabhupāda: ...men came to see pandal? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Naturally. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone who came saw the pandal. Hṛdayānanda: There was a big crowd going in constantly, a river of people. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It was impossible to walk. Prabhupāda: Next year the Chinese men must come. Hṛdayānanda: Chinese bhaktas. Madhudviṣa: Chinese and Russian. Prabhupāda: Yes. Russian, you cannot distinguish, but Chinese can be distinguished. Madhudviṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: From the face. Madhudviṣa: Just like the Manipur people come sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is same stock. Madhudviṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Manipur, Chinese, Cambodian stock. [break] Many Chinese, for culture. I know. All came. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if they invite you to China, you'll go? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly. I can go immediately. I have no objection. *Pañca*-draviḍa: [break] Everyone was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and saying... Prabhupāda: Crowd also? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Yeah, the crowd here.... There was practically.... I didn't see any incidents of anybody doing anything wrong or trying to cause trouble. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Satsvarūpa: Jayapatākā Mahārāja just said he was measuring the people as they came in. In one minute, an average of a 150 people came. Jayapatākā: That was only low time. And peak time was 400. Hṛdayānanda: Per minute? Jayapatākā: Per minute. Prabhupāda: How many visitors, according to your calculations? Jayapatākā: So that's about between 9,000 to 25,000 an hour. Hṛdayānanda: They averaged fifteen or twenty thousand an hour. Jayapatākā: Per hour. Then they, all day they're coming... Hṛdayānanda: So yes, well over a lakh. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Two lakhs. Last night was big. Last night... Prabhupāda: No, the police officer said that "From all different parts of Bengal, they are coming to see your temple." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This never before has happened? Prabhupāda: No. *Guru*-kṛpā: We realized last night our temple is too small. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) *Guru*-kṛpā: And the road, you could not even walk down it. It took me fifteen minutes to get to the gate. Prabhupāda: I therefore planned four buildings like that. You know. And that was my plan, four buildings like that besides temple and my house. That was the original plan. *Dharmādhyakṣa: There was one Kṛṣṇa*-kṛpā Brahmacārī. You met him a few years ago, told him to come here, and he saw the prasāda room. He said he has never seen such a well-organized prasādam room, prasādam distribution. Everyone was very well disciplined and what-not. He was very impressed. He'll be coming today at five p.m. He was a physics professor at some college in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: No, no, all this credit goes to Jayapatākā Mahārāja. Yes. He is struggling from the very beginning. Others who were in the beginning, they have all gone away. *Pañca*-draviḍa: He was the first. Jayapatākā: Only your mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are always keeping... Prabhupāda: So supply nice food, prasādam. Jayapatākā: This new building is equal to three buildings. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayapatākā: The new building is equal to three of these buildings. Prabhupāda: No, it is not so broad. Jayapatākā: But it is six times as long. Yaśodānandana: But there's still space... Jayapatākā: Five times as long... Yaśodānandana: But there's still space around to build. Prabhupāda: Five times? Jayapatākā: Six times as long. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: About six times longer. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And it's.... This building, including the grounds... Jayapatākā: So this, at least two buildings. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This building, including the grounds... Prabhupāda: But it is not going to be four stories. Jayapatākā: No. But five times as long, and two story. That means ten sides. On this, they got eight sides. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This, this building actually only has three floors. Jayapatākā: Yeah. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not four floors. Jayapatākā: So in that way, it's... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That one has two. *Guru*-kṛpā: Half of it's kitchen. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one has three. Prabhupāda: No, there are floors, ground floors. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That also has three, if you count the ground floor. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that's three, plus six times longer Prabhupāda: [break] ...just decorate green leaves and yellow flower. By chance? Rascals say, "By chance." It is coming by chance? Just see. Show me anything within your experience which has come by chance. Anything, whatever you like, show me, come by chance, which has come by chance. Hṛdayānanda: I can say.... "Yes, I was, became sick by chance." Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: "I became sick by chance." Prabhupāda: No, no. Then again you are rascal. You infected some disease. Then you became sick. There is no chance. *Guru*-kṛpā: The other day, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I went in the shower, and I turned on the shower, and the thing broke and hit me on the head. It was chance. Prabhupāda: Yes, because you are rascal, therefore it hit you.... (laughter) *Guru*-kṛpā: So it was chance. Prabhupāda: It was not chance. You are a rascal, and you were hit on the head.... (laughs) That is not chance. The cause is your rascalism. So you cannot find out anything by chance. Madhudviṣa Mahārāja, you can find out anything by chance? This is simply rascaldom, chance theory. *Pañca*-draviḍa: What about...? What about gambling, Prabhupāda? Somebody wins; somebody loses. That's by chance. Prabhupāda: That is not chance. Madhudviṣa: They would say, "Everything is by chance." You say green, yellow flower with green leaf. So.... But through evolution there has been so many other combinations. Now we're just... Prabhupāda: But then evolution is the cause. Then evolution is the cause. How you can say "chance"? Madhudviṣa: No, it's just many, many different combinations. Now you are seeing the yellow and green... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Madhudviṣa: ...so you are appreciating. Prabhupāda: There is a process in the evolution. Therefore you find. You cannot say it's chance. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Well the evolution happens by chance. Prabhupāda: No. Trivikrama: Just like he said. All the trees are growing up, not one going this way, not by chance one is... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Nothing by chance. It is a wrong theory. Satsvarūpa: If you throw dice, they may come up in one... Prabhupāda: Then dice becomes cause? Chance? Satsvarūpa: Well, what causes it to be seven or eleven or another number? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Chance. Prabhupāda: Not chance. You do not know. Therefore you say. Hṛdayānanda: Ah! Because they don't know, they say "chance." Trivikrama: That's right, because I don't know, ignorant. Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to cover their ignorance by this theory, "chance." They want to become very intelligent by chance. That is their.... That is not the fact. For intelligence you have to learn from a superior person. It cannot be done by chance. Who has become learned scholar by chance? There is none. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because that is śūdra philosophy, this chance philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone has to work very hard, pass examination, and then he becomes an educated man. Where is by chance one has become learned? *Pañca*-draviḍa: What about two people born in the same circumstance? Each has equal education and equal background, but one becomes rich and one remains poor. That's chance. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the fate. Fate is the cause, destiny. Otherwise, so many people are working hard. Why not everyone is becoming rich by chance? Kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā. This is the instruction in the Bhāgavatam. Tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham. There are two things-happiness and distress*-and they are being controlled by the time. You have infected some disease. In time, it will come out, manifested, and the doctor say, "Oh, you infected this disease. Take this injection." The time factor. It.... You have to wait to see the result. It is not chance. As soon as you do something, immediately the reaction begins. But you do not see the result immediately, but wait and you'll find. Yes. Madhudviṣa: So we say that everything has a cause. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: But then we have causeless mercy. So would that be chance? Prabhupāda: Eh? Madhudviṣa: We have also causeless mercy, meeting the pure devotee. Is that a chance? Prabhupāda: No. I.... We don't accept that chance. The causeless is a mercy. Causeless mercy is the cause. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. The mercy is the cause. Prabhupāda: The mercy may be causeless, but the mercy is the cause. Madhudviṣa: But the which is the cause? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The mercy is the cause. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a cause. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You did nothing to deserve it, but it's caused your good fortune. Trivikrama: Jaya. Satsvarūpa: That poet from Ireland asked you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you were in Rome. He said, "I want to know who told God all that He knows, because..." Prabhupāda: What is that? Satsvarūpa: He asked, "Who.... Who has informed God of all knowledge? Everyone has to learn from someone." So he said, "Who informed God?" Trivikrama: Then Prabhupāda said, "First you have to know what God means." Satsvarūpa: Yes, that He's svarāṭ. Prabhupāda: I think that poet was convinced. Trivikrama: Yes. He admitted that he was confused. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This philosophy pervades all of modern science. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This chance theory. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say that "By chance, after some time..." Prabhupāda: Because they have finished their science. They have researched and done so many years now, their scientific knowledge is liquidated. Now they are giving this chance theory, therefore, because they cannot explain anything. That's all. Their vidyā buddhi is finished. That is the problem now. For the scientists, it is a problem now. Now, so far their limited knowledge is concerned, they have done everything, discovered everything. Now there is no scope of working and discovering. That is the position of the scientists. *Pañca*-draviḍa: So they should come to you. Prabhupāda: Well, that is another thing. Rut this is their actual position. Now their position is how to bluff and get money, because talk is finished. Now bluffing stock is now finished. Now they have to give theories like this "chance" and make big, big words, jugglery. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why don't they make research into consciousness? Prabhupāda: What they'll be finished? Whatever their limited knowledge they possess, that is finished now. They have no scope. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should look to the field of consciousness. Dharmādhyakṣa: They are doing it now, but they are studying the brain. They think the brain is the source of consciousness. So they study people... Prabhupāda: So wherefrom the brain came? What they'll answer? Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, it has evolved. Prabhupāda: Again by chance. "Brain became by chance." That means failure of their stock. Dharmādhyakṣa: I heard one professor in Berkeley... Prabhupāda: You, you prepare brain, or keep something that by chance there will be a brain. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Make a monkey's brain by chance. *Yaśodānandana: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, in one of your purports, you mention that great scientists like Einstein, Newton and Chandra Bose had such great brains, but who has created their brain? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśodānandana: This is a very clever argument of Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yaśodānandana: That they will not research. Prabhupāda: We are appreciating the brain of big, big scientist. But who has created that brain? No appreciation. Just see how fool they are. You cannot create that brain. You create another contemporary brain like that big, big man. Even that big man cannot. The big men, before dying, he should have considered, "Now I'll die now. Let me create another brain like me, and that will work." That they cannot do. *Pañca*-draviḍa: So they think chance. Prabhupāda: So there must be third man, third brain who has created. You cannot do it. *Yaśodānandana: There is actual proof, Prabhupāda, that when these scientists and great, so*-called poets, when they die, refusing to admit the authority of God, they die a very terrible death. Just like in France there used to be a great philosopher named Voltaire, and at the end of his life, because his whole writings and existence he tried to disprove the existence of God, he went insane, and he was eating his own stool and urine. And a priest came to him and said, "Why don't you accept the existence of God? You have become such great poet." He said, "I will never accept the existence of God." But he became to the point where he was eating his own stool and urine. Prabhupāda: Just see. Yaśodānandana: This has been recorded... Prabhupāda: This is the punishment, yes. Punishment there is always. But they are so stubborn fools still. Dharmādhyakṣa: Prabhupāda, the one great brain researcher, he spent nineteen years searching for the memory in the brain. Prabhupāda: There is a story that two friends talking that, on the point that "How this was cut, separated?" So one friend said, "It is by knife." And the other friend said, "No, it was by scissor." So they went on.... One said, "No! It is knife." He said, "No! It is scissor." So the knife man was very strong. So he took him to the water, that "You say it is knife. Otherwise I shall drown you." (laughter) So he said, "I'll never say." Then he said.... When he was drowning, he was doing like this, (Prabhupāda gesticulates) (laughter) "Scissor, scissor." When he was actually drowned and he had no other means to say, then he was doing like this: "It is scissor. It is scissor." This is their argument. However punished they may be, they'll do this. (laughter) Madhudviṣa: [break] ...that you are too impatient. Prabhupāda: Eh? Madhudviṣa: They will say that you are too impatient. We see that in all science there's been a natural progression. Now they have.... In the test tube they have made some tissues, and the tissues are sustaining themselves and are living. So in due course, they'll be able to create some functioning brain. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of your creation? It is already created. Why you are, rascal, working? Why? Madhudviṣa: We can create a better brain. Prabhupāda: No. Madhudviṣa: By our scientific endeavor. Prabhupāda: You cannot do even a lesser. How you can expect to do...? *Trivikrama: Post*-dated check again. Prabhupāda: Again the same. Madhudviṣa: But you must give us some time because we are working hard... Prabhupāda: I shall. I shall give you kick. (laughter) I shall give you kick. And no time. I shall give you kick. Madhudviṣa: Well that's not very scientific. Prabhupāda: No. It is scientific. You are a stubborn.... "Scissor philosophy." Dharmādhyakṣa: Most brain researchers admit they could never create a brain. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dharmādhyakṣa: Most brain scientists will admit they could never make a brain. Too difficult. Hṛdayānanda: Scissor philosophy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Scissor philosophy. Hṛdayānanda: Scissor philosophy and the frog philosophy. Dharmādhyakṣa: [break] ...something else. Prabhupāda: Just see. They.... At last, they'll accept: "Yes, I foolish. Yes." Haṁsadūta: Then they get a prize. Prabhupāda: So if I say from the beginning that "You are foolish," I am helping him because he has to admit at the end that he's a foolish. Dharmādhyakṣa: He was one of the biggest brain researchers. He had to admit there was a mind, there was something else other than the brain. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When I was in America, I got one report. One person was telling me they had read of this person. It shows the limit..., how unlimited one can eat anything. This one man, he has, he has been for twenty years eating an automobile. He takes the different parts of the automobile, grinding it down, and daily eats different parts of it. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Just see. Madman. There is iron, metal. He was eating? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's eating by grinding it very finely into powder. He's.... His program is to consume one entire automobile*-tires, windshield, everything. Dharmādhyakṣa: Just so he'll become famous. Prabhupāda: And how he'll live? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Apparently he takes a little enough quantity that it doesn't disturb. And it's ground down very finely into powder. Trivikrama: He eats other stuff too. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, he eats other things also, meat. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Guru*-kṛpā: I talked to one lady. She was daily eating one glass of dirt. Prabhupāda: Who? *Guru*-kṛpā: Soil. One lady was eating soil, one glass, saying it was good for health. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think the goat, the animal, the goat, they eat cans. They can eat metal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. The pigeons, they can eat stone. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you once explained how the cow eats grass, and it produces such a rich vitamin food like milk. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So you asked me the question, "Is there vitamins in the grass?" And obviously there's not such vitamins in grass that it produces milk. So the vitamins are coming from Kṛṣṇa? Yes? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if you eat grass, considering that there is vitamins-"There is indeed"*-then you'll die. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, Karttikeya Mahadeviya... Prabhupāda: Eh? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Mahadeviya, he might talk upon this point*-wheat grass. *Pañca*-draviḍa: But cows aren't all eating wheat grass. *Prabhupāda: Cows are eating grass, dry grass, and giving you nice milk. Now, if you eat it-"There is vitamins. Let me eat"*-you'll die. So who made this arrangement? *Guru*-kṛpā: They may argue, though, that even women give milk after there's baby, and they eat all sorts of things. Prabhupāda: They eat grass? *Guru*-kṛpā: They eat meat. They eat fish. They are making milk also. Prabhupāda: Milk is there, but it is not that it is due to eating such and such. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Yeah, that doesn't prove anything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Milk is there. Balavanta: If a woman doesn't drink cow's milk, she can't make other milk. Madhudviṣa: No, they will say that if the cow is fed, given good feed, then the milk is better. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Madhudviṣa: If the cow is given good feed, then the milk is much better. Prabhupāda: No, that I.... That I admit. But one thing is that you practically see the cow is eating dry grass and giving you full of vitamins milk. So that does not mean that dry grass is the cause of vitamins? Otherwise you could eat also the dry grass instead of purchasing vitamin pills. Your country is very much fond of vitamin pills. You eat grass. Why you are after vitamin pills? Hm? Saurabha Prabhu? You can take vitamin pills with grass? Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we saw a science film in Stanford, and one process of protein synthesis they called "The Magic Factor." Prabhupāda: Again, that cau... Dharmādhyakṣa: They didn't... Prabhupāda: Chance. Magic is also a chance. Dharmādhyakṣa: So that must have been the Kṛṣṇa factor. *Guru*-kṛpā: Everything else but Kṛṣṇa. Magic. Prabhupāda: [break] You see the tree, coconut tree, the hard nut and the water. Now, according to scientific idea, there must be pipe, there must be pumping and there must be water. Then you can raise the water. But where is such, such things? How the water is coming? *Pañca*-draviḍa: To the tree? Prabhupāda: Yes, on the top, so high. There is no pipe. There is no pump, nothing. You do it. Instead of calling a plumber, you do something that the water will come in this tank. Devotee (2): Well, they will say that the roots of the tree is bringing the water up. Prabhupāda: That is a nonsense. You make such root and bring water here. Then your scientific knowledge will be proved. But you cannot do it. Can you do it? We are spending so much money for bringing water. Bring that root and bring water. Madhudviṣa: We have done better. We can do it faster. Within, within a few minutes we can bring so much water here. You must... Prabhupāda: But if I don't pay you, you'll starve. You'll never be able to do it if I don't pay you. Madhudviṣa: Well, we have money. So we have become more... Prabhupāda: No, you have no money. You have not money. Therefore you are working on my order. You have no money. You have no money. Madhudviṣa: I know. Prabhupāda: I know it. *Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was one story in the magazine National Geographic of a valuable diamond, the Hope Diamond, the most valuable in the world, that was stolen from a deity of Sītā*-devī. So every single person that has ever gotten the diamond has been killed. *Prabhupāda: Sītā*-devī? *Rādhāvallabha: Yes, a deity of Sītā*-devī. They stole the diamond from this deity in India. Prabhupāda: When? Rādhāvallabha: Many years ago. *Guru*-kṛpā: This diamond is in the Washington... Rādhāvallabha: Yes. Smithsonian. *Guru*-kṛpā: ...Institute. Washington, D.C. The biggest diamond in the world. Rādhāvallabha: Anyone that's ever stole it's been killed. Everyone is very much afraid now. They can't understand why everyone is dying that has taken the diamond. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stolen? Trivikrama: Stolen from India? Prabhupāda: No.... Oh. Gurudāsa(?): Rāvaṇa's. Who stole it? Madhudviṣa: The largest diamond in the world? Prabhupāda: Well, the Britishers, they stolen so many diamonds from India. Trivikrama: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Trivikrama: The whole British Museum. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whole British Museum means stolen properties from many countries, that's all, especially in India. Yaśodānandana: Prabhupāda, I have heard that previously in India, some paṇḍita says, that when they used to put the jewels on the Deities they used to put some mantra that, when they install the Deity, that "Whoever takes this mantra will never be able to have peace or will die," some curse mantras. Yaśodānandana: Whoever steals the jewels. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is possible. *Rādhāvallabha: Even just recently they were laughing at this curse, and they took the jewel from Sītā*-devī in their car to go to the museum, and their car crashed on the way. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Did they die? Rādhāvallabha: No, they didn't die. A severe crash, though. Prabhupāda: Don't you think the whole British nation is now ruined? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That has crashed. Prabhupāda: What do you want more? "But he has not suffered. He has simply died." This is the argument. He has suffered. But "No, no, there was no suffering. He has simply died." What is the more suffering than death? [break] *Pañca*-draviḍa: When somebody is dying and his external consciousness is completely absorbed in all kinds of terrible bodily symptoms, how is it that a devotee remembers Kṛṣṇa? What is actually happening that he's able to remember Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Devotee generally remembers Kṛṣṇa. But even if he cannot, Kṛṣṇa will help him. Devotees: Oh. Prabhupāda: That is guarantee. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. Because he is devotee, for material condition he could not remember, but Kṛṣṇa remembers, "Yes," that "he has done so much for Me." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, otherwise... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise, it's just mechanical. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mechanical *Prabhupāda: No. That is.... That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, that.... He was giving the condition. Then, when Arjuna was little disturbed, so He said immediately, "Arjuna, you have no fear." Did you not read this portion? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Then.... Then that verse, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvam [Bg. 8.6], is for... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is general. But a devotee, because Kṛṣṇa has taken charge of him, even he does not remember Kṛṣṇa, still, Kṛṣṇa is there. Trivikrama: "I carry what you lack..." Jayapatākā: Kṛṣṇa said, "I am the cause of remembrance and forgetfulness." Prabhupāda: Yes. Generally devotee dies remembering Kṛṣṇa, generally. But even if for material condition he cannot, then Kṛṣṇa is taken charge. *Pañca*-draviḍa: What was the arrangement with Bharata Mahārāja? Prabhupāda: And there is no question of hopelessness, no. We have to do our duty very seriously. Then everything is all right. *Pañca*-draviḍa: So with Bharata Mahārāja, that was special arrangement? Prabhupāda: No. It was.... It was punishment. He became so much, I mean, attached with the animal that he forgot his duty in devotional service. That is stated. Forgot. He neglected. Therefore he was punished, but he remembered that "I did it." You cannot neglect your duty. Then Kṛṣṇa is always with you. [break] ...way, a soldier is dying in duty, immediately the government takes charge of the whole family. So that is.... Why not Kṛṣṇa? [break] ...kṛṣṇa viśvāsa pālana. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said. You know this song? Avaśya rakṣibe kṛṣṇa viśvāsa pālana. Jayapatākā: "If one maintains his faith, then Kṛṣṇa..." Prabhupāda: Ah! Yes. One should maintain his faith that "Kṛṣṇa will give me protection. And my duty is to serve Him." That's it. *Pañca*-draviḍa: When it says in the śāstra that a hundred generations past and future of a devotee, they're liberated, what kind of liberation do they get? Devotees: Fourteen. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Pañca*-draviḍa: What kind of liberation does the family get of a pure devotee? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One who becomes a devotee, the statement is that fourteen generations of his family, past, present and future, become liberated. So what kind of liberation does the family members of a pure Vaiṣṇava get? *Prabhupāda: Liberation means-that is explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu*-to become devotee. That is liberation. To become.... To become a devotee is itself liberation. [break] ...will come. Prasādam? Is there any such arrangement or not? They are coming. They should be offered some... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned the pots of halavā. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The pots of halavā. I inquired about it, and they said that semolina is very difficult to get now, that the government has only allotted some eighty pounds of semolina to be purchased. Prabhupāda: No, it doesn't matter, but give him prasādam, other prasādam. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...halavā with powdered dahl or... *Pañca*-draviḍa: Powdered dahl. They could use whole wheat flour? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Whole wheat flour, they could use in? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Devotee (3): ...in right proportions. (boys shout) Prabhupāda: What they say? What is the quarrel? [break] ...nice, South Indian. Oh, very nice. How many seats are there? Devotee (4): Say about four(?) seats. Prabhupāda, four devotees went from Hyderabad, going through Orissa and coming to Māyāpura for the festival. Prabhupāda: Very good. Devotee (4): Going about five, six months, they have traveled all over. Prabhupāda: Many people assembled on the way? Devotee (4): Yes, because they were stopping in every village and distributing literature, giving away prasādam. Prabhupāda: Hm. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (pause) Hm. It is dirty. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very much dust. Rādhāvallabha: Thousands of people went through last night. Madhudviṣa: I don't think we can prevent that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So much traffic. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Foot traffic. I think it should be dusted off. Rādhāvallabha: The whole display will be cleaned this morning. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] Tokyo, Japan, and Philadelphia. Balavanta: That's Philadelphia. Rādhāvallabha: That was when you were there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, yes. (pause) Therefore our mission is to bring Māyāpura everywhere. Devotee (5): Jaya. Prabhupāda: This is the greatest peace movement, to bring peace to the suffering humanity. Haṁsadūta: If a devotee thinks that he likes, for example, Vṛndāvana more than he likes Māyāpura, is that a wrong thinking, or is that his personal...? *Prabhupāda: There is no difference. Gauḍa*-maṇḍala-bhūmi, yebā jāne cintāmaṇi. Haṁsadūta: Just like some devotees, they worship Rāma, and some worship Kṛṣṇa. It is like that? Prabhupāda: They know there is no difference from Vṛndāvana. They are not so fool... Haṁsadūta: Not so... Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 18, 1976, Mäyäpura Haṁsadūta: ...Yeah. That's auspicious Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: That's auspicious? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Gaura*-Nitāi! *Gurudāsa: Gaura*-Nitāi. Prabhupāda: [break] ...moon is going around the earth. Gurudāsa: Tree. Prabhupāda: So why the moon is, particularly rises from the eastern side? The moon, according to the... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Scientists. Prabhupāda: The moon is going round like this. So why the moon is rising from the eastern side? It is going around. Why it appears from the eastern side? Devotee: They say because the earth is spinning on an axis. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Pañca*-draviḍa: 'Cause the earth is turning. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a very good question. (laughter) Gurudāsa: What's the answer, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: So you answer. He has understood. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: According to *Bhāgavatam*, the moon is not going around the earth. It is revolving around Mount Sumeru. Isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. According Bhāgavata, that is a different thing. But this... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But why the moon should simply follow that same pattern... Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...going east to west, east to west? Why not...? Bhavānanda: Random. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At random. Sometimes rising from the south. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes, perhaps, from the north. Haṁsadūta: Well, they say it has a fixed orbit around the earth. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: It has a fixed orbit around the earth. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who fixed the orbit? Jayatīrtha: Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Chance. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Chance. Prabhupāda: And the sun is also rising from the east. But sun is fixed up, and the moon is moving. So why they are coming from the same side? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Wonderful question. These are wonderful things. Hari-śauri: Well, they say that the moon, the moon is actually moving around the earth. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: And the earth is rotating, and the sun is, only appears to move around the earth. Prabhupāda: Is that question answered? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Well, they both appear that way because of the turning of the earth. Prabhupāda: The sun is fixed up. *Pañca*-draviḍa: But the earth is turning. Prabhupāda: Earth is turning, and moon is turning. But why the sun and moon rises from the same side? *Pañca*-draviḍa: 'Cause the earth turns in that direction. Prabhupāda: Just talk if it is proper answer. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why doesn't the moon sometimes rise in the south? Or the north? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Because the sun.... Because the earth is not turning in the opposite direction. Prabhupāda: What he is doing on the roof? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no. Hari-śauri: He's taking photographs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no. This boy joined us.... [break] Gurudāsa: ...rather than the chaos. *Pañca*-draviḍa: What is the Vedic explanation, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Vedic explanation is that moon is not going round the earthly planet. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is very revolutionary thought. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because children all over the world in schools, they're taught simply that the moon is going around the earth. They shouldn't question it. Prabhupāda: Oh, they say, "You should not question"? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, should not question it. It's taken as fact. Prabhupāda: My point is: if the moon is going round the earth, beginning from here to there, similarly, the sun is also going around earth, because we see the similar way, it is rising and going that way. So how you can say one is fixed, one is standing? The process, we find the same. How you can say that this is fixed and this is going around? Why is...? If the process is the same, then the result will be the same. Hari-śauri: [break] .... accepted the sun was moving, then they wouldn't be able to prove that... Prabhupāda: And the.... And the moon is not seen also for fifteen days in the morning (month?). As a layman, we should say that, as the moon is rising from this side and going to this side, the sun is also rising from this side. So if the moon is moving, the sun is moving. *Pañca*-draviḍa: If that's true, then how does.... What about the changes in the moon's face? Sometimes... Prabhupāda: True or nontrue, I am layman. I am saying that if the moon is rising from this side and going to this side, so sun is also rising from this side and going to this side. So if the moon is moving, the sun is moving. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Common sense. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, I am a layman. Actually sun is moving, but they say fixed up. *Pañca*-draviḍa: [break] ...moving the same, though, the moon would always appear full, and it goes through changes, or phases. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why it, the moon is...? *Jayapatākā: [break] They say that everything is moving. Both the earth is moving, sun is moving and the moon is moving, but everything has got its own time. Moon is moving once around in twenty*-eight days, and our earth is moving around in 365 days, and sun is also moving in its own time. Prabhupāda: But they say sun, fixed up. Jayapatākā: No, they don't say fixed up. *Pañca*-draviḍa: They say there's a point called the galactic center of the universe, and everything is moving around that point. Trivikrama: They say like that. Prabhupāda: So what is that center? Jayapatākā: That they can't find out. Balavanta: Somewhere near the sun. They've just imagined it. It's close to the sun, but not exactly the sun. It's the center, they say. Prabhupāda: So our Bhāgavata says the whole planetary system is moving like this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Centering the polestar. Jayapatākā: They admit that there's some center of the universe. Everything is going around that, including the sun. But they don't know exactly where it is. Prabhupāda: That is polestar. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, that's admitted, that the polestar, the stars are revolving around, everything. They take photographs. *Pañca*-draviḍa: What? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Of the.... Everything revolving around the polestar, the constellations. Gurudāsa: Are the moon's phases due to the planet Rāhu, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? Gurudāsa: Are the moon's phases due to the planet Rāhu? Prabhupāda: Space? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The phases of the moon*-quarter moon, half moon, full moon. Gurudāsa: Waxing and the waning of the moon. Prabhupāda: No. *Pañca*-draviḍa: What's it due to, then? Prabhupāda: That I should not exactly immediately say. Gurudāsa: We don't accept. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda just said, "Not right now." Prabhupāda: But moon is far away from the sun. That is from *Bhāgavatam*. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, there's another question I have. I remember on a walk.... I have read in your books that the moon's glowing is due to reflecting the sun. Then I remember on a walk in Vṛndāvana you said that the moon is fiery just like the sun, but there's a cooling atmosphere around it. So is it actually fiery glow, or is it simply a reflecting glow? Prabhupāda: That is stated in *Bhāgavatam*. Gurudāsa: It says reflection in the Bhāgavata. Prabhupāda: No, it is also a fiery place. But it is because it is far away from the sun, it is not so glowing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it's not a question of reflection only. Prabhupāda: The reflection theory is the modern theory. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because sometimes in the books it's stated... Prabhupāda: Yes. Sometimes I have said or taken this modern theory. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just so that people will understand an example. I see. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another question is "How do the different seasons come about*-winter, summer, spring?" Prabhupāda: That is due to the movement of the sun. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The...? Prabhupāda: Movement of the sun. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Movement of the sun. Prabhupāda: But they say sun if fixed up. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they say the earth is tilting back and forth like this. Prabhupāda: That is always doing, but it takes little time. But the movement of the sun, uttara and dakṣiṇa, what is their explanation? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say that the earth is tilting like this. The sun is fixed. When the earth tilts like this in the northern hemisphere there is summer, and when it tilts like this, the southern hemisphere, there's summer. It's tilting back and forth as it revolves around the sun. Prabhupāda: Tilting? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But they say it is... *Pañca*-draviḍa: Well, they say the earth is on a tilted axis. *Trivikrama: Twenty*-three degrees from the north pole. *Pañca*-draviḍa: So, as it revolves around the sun... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's another theory too. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's two different theories. *Haṁsadūta: It's simultaneously going around the sun, and also, in itself, it is turning. And then it's sometimes tilting on a particular axis. It's simultaneously moving around the so*-called central sun... Prabhupāda: But for six months that, it tilts? Haṁsadūta: And then it also spins, the globe spins, and then it also... Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: It has different tilts. It takes different degrees. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The tilt is always the same. Haṁsadūta: And when the sun's rays hit the earth at a particular angle, it becomes cooler or hotter. This is their sum and substance. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While it's spinning, it's not just spinning straight up and down. It's on an axis. So it's spinning like this, not like this. Like this. *Pañca*-draviḍa: It's on an angle. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. And then it is tilting. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But how does that explain summer and winter? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because it's close to the sun in... *Pañca*-draviḍa: Because it's close to the sun and.... No, it's not closer. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It spins. Every twenty*-four hours it's turning. Why should that matter? *Pañca*-draviḍa: No, but the orbit around the sun is... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Elliptical. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Yes. Elliptical. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, for instance, in Sweden, they have a certain part of the year when it is always dark. So they say this is because the earth's axis has shifted so that.... Yeah. Prabhupāda: So your work is going to begin today? No? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatākā Mahārāja? Jayapatākā: Pardon? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The work? When will it begin? Begin? Jayapatākā: Maheśvara told me the work is going on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's going on? Devotee (1): He said some men are coming today. Jayapatākā: Yes. More are coming today. Prabhupāda: So they are having no difficulty? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seems to be they are enjoying themselves. Haṁsadūta: On the whole, the devotees don't appear to be falling sick as they have in previous years. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Haṁsadūta: They seem to be well and happy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Arrangements are getting better every year. Trivikrama: The devotees are getting better every year. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. *Pañca*-draviḍa: The devotees aren't eating so much and sleeping so much this year. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they don't sleep at all. They get up at one*-thirty. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Yeah, they're very good. [break] Jayapatākā: ...make a suggestion before they leave, have a little meeting, things that could be improved. Then next year we could even make it better. Prabhupāda: Very good. Yes. Make that suggestion. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is the earth also spinning? Prabhupāda: No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Or is it simply the sun's movements that causes the day and night, everything? Prabhupāda: No planet is fixed except the sun. All are fixed up. But the whole thing is moving. That is *Bhāgavatam*. And that you can see at night. Gurudāsa: What'd he say? *Pañca*-draviḍa: No planet is fixed. The earth and sun, they're all moving. Gurudāsa: The sun is fixed. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but they're all moving. Hari-śauri: But they're all moving. Prabhupāda: It is like a tree, just like this. This is moving, and the sun is moving, and all other planets, they are fixed. Hari-śauri: How is it we see the moon coming in every day, then? Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: How is it that we see the moon moving? Prabhupāda: Moon, that is..., of course, I do not remember, but (laughs) the whole planetary system is moving. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the sun is fixed, but the whole, it's also moving. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sun is also moving. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everything is revolving around that polestar? Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Jayapatākā: Everything is moving around the sun, and the sun is moving around the polestar. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Everything is not moving around the sun. Hari-śauri: Like that tree, if the tree revolves by itself, like that, then the sun(?) is going around the whole thing. Prabhupāda: This is also another intelligent. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Hari-śauri: The tree is just moving like that, and the different branches, they remain in the same position in relationship to the center of the tree. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But the sun has it's own... Hari-śauri: But the sun has an orbit around the whole thing... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's own course. *Hari-śauri: So the whole universe moves around. Every twenty*-four hours it does one rotation. And then the sun is also round all that. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Every twenty*-four hours? Prabhupāda: The moon. *Gurudāsa: Acintya*-bhedābheda-tattva. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: It seems to be one and different simultaneously. Prabhupāda: No, no, not like that point. (laughs) Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are the planets shaped liked balls or more like plates? Because it's, it's hard to understand, 'cause they're called dvīpas, "islands." Their roundness is the roundness of a plate or like a ball? Prabhupāda: Which one? Satsvarūpa: The earth planet? Prabhupāda: If it is like a tree, then these things can be as dvīpa, island. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. You know... Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The scientists are getting smashed to bits by your statements, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This destroys their whole theory. Orbs, round spheres. I think that this Māyāpura building, we must build a big planetarium in it. Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that I am going to do, Vedic planetarium. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, boy. You're going to bring a lot of.... A lot of scientists will come here just to dispute this. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Wonderful attraction. Prabhupāda: World people will come to see the way the planetary systems... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should advertise it very widely that this is the actual, factual explanation of the universe. Prabhupāda: This will be automatically advertised. As soon as the temple is finished, people will come like anything. Hari-śauri: They're going to need somebody to... Prabhupāda: The thing is, on principle, we shall only go against them. Haṁsadūta: Contrary. Prabhupāda: On principle. Whatever they say "Yes," we say "No." (laughter) *Pañca*-draviḍa: What is the explanation of an eclipse? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Eclipse. Prabhupāda: Eclipse are.... So that Rāhu planet comes to attack the sun and the moon. And when it comes, it becomes dark. *Pañca*-draviḍa: How does it attack? Prabhupāda: How do I attack you? *Pañca*-draviḍa: When we see part of the moon disappear, what is actually happening? Prabhupāda: Happening, that attack.... Suppose if I come to attack you and if I am in front, then you cannot see. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Like now I can't see. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Just like Prabhupāda's.... I'm standing behind him, and when he attacks you, I can't see you. *Nanda*-kumāra: By the scientist's calculation of what's happening with the revolving, they can predict an eclipse. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Nanda*-kumāra: They can say in advance when an eclipse will come. Prabhupāda: Well we can also predict. *Pañca*-draviḍa: : Yeah. They predicted Lord Caitanya's appearance. Balavanta: And five thousand years ago, in Kurukṣetra, they predicted when Kṛṣṇa went... *Pañca*-draviḍa: So apparently they can predict Rāhu's attack also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's all right. Gurudāsa: Actually, even the scientists say there is astrological reasons behind Rāhu the planet. *Pañca*-draviḍa: So they're predicting five thousand years before the scientists. This is the explanation. Prabhupāda: No, when there was no civilization. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Eh? They... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is no civilization five thousand years ago. Prabhupāda: Yes. Three thousand years... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All cavemen. Prabhupāda: ...before, there was no civilization. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I just.... I read that recently in an anthropology book, that 3000 B.C. means five thousand years ago, everyone was living in.... Especially in this part of the world, people were simply living in caves. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: English propaganda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: English propaganda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had very crude tools for making their things. Practically they were all like animals. Prabhupāda: So how this literature came? Hari-śauri: Well, they say that it's not older than 1,000, 1,500 years old. Prabhupāda: One thousand.... But where are other literatures like that, 1,500 years, in Europe and other places? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No such thing. Prabhupāda: So only the literatures were here in India? *Pañca*-draviḍa: No, they have them. They also have mythology in Greece, and Roman mythology too. Prabhupāda: Mythology maybe, but so purposeful verses, where is in other country? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Nowhere. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Balavanta: Bhagavad*-gītā's philosophy... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pañca*-draviḍa: That they can't match anywhere. Prabhupāda: Then? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How can a caveman make it, then? Prabhupāda: Yes. Trivikrama: Each verse, so... Prabhupāda: Each rich.... Is it impossible to compose verses by the cavemen? How foolish they are. Not only that, in *Mahābhārata* there are 100,000 verses. In Bhāgavata, there are 18,000 verses. In the *Purāṇas*... Where is such rich literature? If they were cavemen, wherefrom this literature came? Satsvarūpa: They also said Kṛṣṇa was a tribal chief. But how could He speak such philosophy? Prabhupāda: How rascal they are. *Pañca*-draviḍa: There are a few flaws in the theory. *Prabhupāda: The best class of men, the Aryans, and they were worshiping a tribal chief! And what was Arjuna? He was also a tribal chief? Arjuna said that "I become Your disciple." So what was he, that he is submitting to a tribal chief? Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. And He's teaching Bhagavad*-gītā? Lokanātha: Which is being read after five thousand years. *Prabhupāda: And still, they cannot assimilate it, so much, so*-called civilized men, they cannot understand even the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], that there is transmigration of the soul, these rascals. And who is tribal chief? Haṁsadūta: Just to master the language takes twelve years. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: What to speak of understanding the content. Jayapatākā: [break] ...exhibit the farce of modern science. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayapatākā: Farce of modern science, and every philosophy and science group, where they are just cheating the public. Then exhibit how Kṛṣṇa consciousness is showing the real way. Prabhupāda: Yes. So do that in this planetarium. *Pañca*-draviḍa: That will be very nice. Prabhupāda: That is... Gurudāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, a few years ago I presented an exposition, and in that was a planetarium, and also there was an exhibit called "Man's Relationship with God," which was the alternative to modern anthropology, showing how anthropology is not valid and man's relationship with God is the valid thing, and then regulation is the preventative of the disease, is the alternative to psychology or behaviorism, like that. All these exhibitors can be there, showing how science is false and Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Prabhupāda: So whatever thoughts are coming, you note it. Keep it. We shall utilize it with reference, with reference to the śāstra. Gurudāsa: Jaya. [break] Jayapatākā: This special exhibition building? Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata. Take every page of Bhāgavata. And I think every year there should be change. Haṁsadūta: New exhibit. Prabhupāda: New exhibit. Haṁsadūta: Otherwise it will become stale. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: 'Cause we have so much material. Gurudāsa: It should be done very easily. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: By conveyor belts and... *Prabhupāda: No, here, the doll*-makers, they can make dolls within fifteen days. Finished. They can do, so expert. *Gurudāsa: That should be life*-size. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Gurudāsa: It should be life*-size, like walking into the forest of Naimiṣāraṇya. *Prabhupāda: Life*-size or not life-size. Three feet, four feet, that will be... Haṁsadūta: The old exhibits can be sold to the visiting temples. They can take them back to their... Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Jayapatākā: BBT.... BBT did such nice packing with this modern styrofoam that they could easily move even fragile dolls. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] What is that? Jayapatākā: They brought the glass light thing, and they didn't break it, with this plastic foam. Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. That plastic bullet is now in motorcar. Even if you fire, it will not enter, the bullet. Is it not? Gurudāsa: Windows? Plastic in the motorcar? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bullet*-proof glass. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Yeah, they have bullet-proof glass. Gurudāsa: They have something in regular cars that if it hits, it won't break. Hari-śauri: It shatters. *Gurudāsa: And in the cars of big men they have bullet*-proof glass. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the devotees.... Śatadhanya was asking if there could be a group photograph on the grass this morning after class? For five minutes? Prabhupāda: [break] .... that we are killing vegetables, but actually we are not killing. They are already dead. Hm? Gurudāsa: Also there's a verse in the *Bhāgavatam* that says there may be a fire on the ground, but the seed underneath the ground is still living. The tops may be cut, but the seed is still living. [break] Prabhupāda: ...painting he has made? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said he would complete it today. Prabhupāda: Oh. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And he'd like to show it to you tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Rādhāvallabha: [break] They keep putting their pictures there. I keep taking them off. Prabhupāda: Hm? Rādhāvallabha: ISKCON Amsterdam keeps putting their pictures up in front of the books. I keep taking them down. They keep putting them up again. Prabhupāda: Hm? Why you are taking? Rādhāvallabha: They can't see the books. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rādhāvallabha: It's not possible to see the books with the pictures up. They can put them down at the end where there is some room. [break] *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're dressed in peacock feathers? Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're dressed in peacock feathers? Prabhupāda: The dress, (indistinct). Gurudāsa: Jaya, Kṛṣṇa Balarāma ki jaya. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Where is that bābājī gone? He's not.... [break] (Bengali) Bābājī(?): (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali conversation) What is this? (Bengali) (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 19, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: "These people, they have no illicit sex, no intoxication?" Oh, immediately they become praising, "Such wonderful men. No illicit sex?" which is unknown to you, the Western people. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think it is like Superman. Prabhupāda: Yes. Superman, actually. That is the fact. *Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, today starts a big international convention for the Association for Asian Studies, and we're there. It's in Toronto. We have an advertisement in this book, with Śrī Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, with a quote by that Bruce Long. And we have that big sign at our booth: "The largest publisher and distributor of books on the philosophy, culture and religion of India." This shows also with all the exhibitors, we're listed, the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. And this is where we are, this booth here. Prabhupāda: So who is taking care? Satsvarūpa: Two of the library men who didn't come, just so they could go to this convention. Prabhupāda: [break] ...therefore they search. And who goes to the airport? All respectable gentlemen, who can pay lump sum for air fare. So he's also searched out. That means there is no gentlemen. The airport security is searching through. Then in this world there is no gentleman, no honest men. Haṁsadūta: Everyone is suspected. Prabhupāda: All rascals. This is the position. Hari-śauri: But when you go through, Śrīla Prabhupāda, everybody offers their respects. Prabhupāda: They also sometimes show me the favor, but generally.... Sometimes they also search. *Guru*-kṛpā: Search your pockets? Prabhupāda: Yes. No, like this. (laughter) That way. Devotee (1): That's a great mercy for them. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is mercy. When they excuse a saintly person, that is, that is their great mercy. Now, according to Vedic law, a saintly person is never subjected to any law. He's paramahaṁsa. He's never.... Rather, the order is he must be given all help that he wants. That is the Vedic civilization. And brahmacārī, sannyāsīs, they should be treated as children at home, so that wherever they go, they will be treated just like children: "Oh, he's my son. He's my dependent." They will treat like that. And they also go to every home: "Mother, give me some food." So he's children, as the child asks from the mother, "Give me some food." This is system. This is civilization. And M.A., Ph.D., and searching after woman, how to induce her, and being searched out in the airport, whether he's a rogue*-what is this education? We don't want this education. [break] ...student life we have seen practically, one big professor, Dr. Brajendranatha Śrī. So he had another Ph.D. student, and that student kidnapped his daughter and went away. He was so educated that kidnapped his teacher's or the master's daughter and went away. . What is that word? Kāmātura. *Devotee (1): Kāmāturaṁ harṣa-śoka*-bhayaiṣaṇārtam. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is kāmāturam. Prahlāda Mahārāja, millions of years ago, a five*-years-old boy, he's stating what is the position of the materialistic person. This is Bhāgavata. [break] ...education system should be stopped, rascal, producing rascals and hippies in the university. What is the use of this education? Atheists, putting simply theories, and that is also nonsense, and it is going on in the name of education. [break]...Paṇḍita says.... Who is paṇḍita? Recite. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu... Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Para*-dāreṣu, para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Para*-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. The.... Is.... It is moral instruction, what to speak of high education. Means it, preliminary moral education. That is, This is learned. What is the meaning? Explain. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One who sees... Prabhupāda: No, no. He'll explain. *Devotee (1): Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu. Para-dāra means "every woman." "Who can see every woman like, like mother..." Prabhupāda: Yes. *Devotee (1): And para*-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. Para-dravya means money, something of others. Prabhupāda: "Belonging to others." Devotee (1): Yes, "of others." So who can see like loṣṭravat... *Prabhupāda: That is para*-drav... *Devotee (1): ...rubbish, or like rubbish, cannot take, cannot pick up. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu: "Every living entity," ātmavat, "like he himself." Prabhupāda: Yes, as we feel pains and pleasures... Devotee (1): Sa yaḥ paśyati: "Who can see like that..." Prabhupāda: ...they should know the others also will feel. If my throat is cut, I feel, and "Why shall I cut the throat of another, poor animal?" This is learned man. And this rascal, maintaining slaughterhouse, and learned man? And they cannot understand. And big, big priests, they'll defend: "Oh, this 'Thou shalt not kill' means it is meant for the men, not for the ani..." They'll put arguments. Christ says clearly, "Thou shall not kill" and they will defend. Trivikrama: Even abortion they are defending. Prabhupāda: Eh? Trivikrama: Even abortion. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And this is going on as education, as saintly person, priest. These things are going on in the name of religion, in the name of education. How much fallen this world is, just try to understand. As soon as they are caught up, they'll defend only by arguments, counter*-arguments. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that because they have no standard? Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that because they have no standard? *Prabhupāda: No. How they can have standard? Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. How they can have good standard? Because they are atheists, godless, there cannot be. That is the test. As soon as he is godless, he's rascal. Never mind M.A., Ph.D. That's all. This is our conclusion. As soon as you know that "Here is a godless atheist," he is rascal. Bas, finished. Exactly like.... Suppose you are in India, and if you think, "No, there is no government. It is going on automatically," then you are rascal, immediately. Is it very sane man, sane man's statement, statement, that "No, no, there is no God. It is going on"? So atheist means rascal. Such a nice arrangement is going on, exactly at 6:15 the sun is there, and "There is no government. There is no God." Just see how rascaldom. And then what it is? "By chance." And he is scientist. We have to consider them educated scientists? Are we going to be fooled like that? "There is no government." "There is no father." How the child came? "There is no father." Just see. A woman has got a child. And if somebody says, "Yes, she has got child, but there is no need of a father," is that sane man's proposal? Nature is producing, and nature is prakṛti, but where is the puruṣa? Prakṛti-puruṣa. So without puruṣa, how prakṛti can produce? That puruṣaṁ śāśvatam ādyam, Kṛṣṇa.... Is that all right? *Devotee (1): Puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam ādi*-devam ajaṁ vibhum. *Prabhupāda: Ādi*-puruṣam. Govindam ādi-puruṣam, that puruṣa. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. We are worshiping that supreme and original person. And the women are declaring, "independent." They are begging door to door to a man, "Please give me shelter. Give me a child," and they're independent. One American woman, was.... She was speaking that "In India the woman are treated as slave. We don't want." So I told her that it is better to become slave of one person than to slave of become hundreds. (laughter) The woman must become a slave. So instead of becoming slaves of so many persons, it is better to remain satisfied, a slave of one person. So she was stopped. She was the secretary of that Dr. Miśra. You know that? And our Vedic civilization says, narī-rūpaṁ pati-vratam: "The woman is beautiful when she remains as a slave to the husband." That is the beauty, not the personal beauty. How much she has learned to remain as a slave to the husband, that is Vedic civilization. Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpam. The cuckoo, it is black bird, but why people love it? Because of the sweet voice. Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpaṁ vidyā-rūpaṁ kurūpaṇam. A man may be ugly, black, but if he's learned, everyone will respect him. And narī-rūpaṁ pati-vratam. And the beauty of woman is how much she is devoted and obedient to the husband. So it is very difficult. [break] Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, the education is to teach the students how to find out on their own. They say if you take authority from somebody else, it just stifles their growth, and that is not actually knowledge, that is not learning. But you encourage them or give them the facility... Prabhupāda: But why the rascal is called to the school? He may learn at home. Devotee (2): Well, they want to condition them... Prabhupāda: What? Devotee (2): ...with various values. Prabhupāda: What is the value? If you are calling him to take education from the school, that means he is accepting authority. Let him be educated at home. Why the college? Devotee: But in the classrooms, they simply... Prabhupāda: No, no, no, first of all, the principle? What is this principle? Rāmeśvara: To train him in the methods of... Prabhupāda: Yes. So that means authority. You are teaching him to accept the authority. And you are teaching against authority. Everything contradictory. One side, contraceptive; *one side, illicit sex. And the.... But Vedic civilization says, "All right, as soon as woman is widow, let her remain as a saintly woman*-no more sex." But "No, you can marry and you can have sex hundred times daily, but use contraceptive." Is that civilization? To train one woman not to have any more sex, this is also contraceptive. And another way that "You can have sex any amount, as many times as you like. Take this contraceptive." Whose civilization better? And you call him to be trained up to accept authority and teach him, "Don't accept any authority." Is that education? Nonsense. Haṁsadūta: They're doing that. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are doing that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is the idea of the secular state, though... Prabhupāda: Well, secul.... Whatever you name it, you're all set of rascals. That's all. (laughter) You can change the name in different way, but on the whole, you are all set of rascals. This is the whole world's beauty. *Pañca*-draviḍa: This modern theory, Prabhupāda, is that if a person wants to.... If he can maintain more than one wife nicely and wants to keep more than one wife, they won't allow. But if he can keep many young girls and spoil every one of them, that is... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. *Pañca*-draviḍa: .... that is praiseworthy. Prabhupāda: And advertise publicly: "Topless, bottomless women are available here. Come here. School is open at ten o'clock at night. It goes on up to four." I have seen it. This is civilization, nightclub and topless, bottomless shop. Rāmeśvara: The women argue, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that they can be given.... If they are given a good chance, they can make equal contribution in business, in science. So they are demanding equal rights, equal employment. Prabhupāda: So why.... Why not equal rights that you stop producing children like the man? The man does not produce. Why you are obliged to produce? Rāmeśvara: That is their special qualification. Prabhupāda: That is.... Similarly, everything is special. You are a different entity. You must have different engagements. That is your perfection. Rāmeśvara: But we all have.... The women and men, they all have the same brain, they say. Prabhupāda: No, that I protested in Chicago. Yes. "And no, that is not the fact. The fact is man has 64 ounce. The woman has 36 ounce.... Highest." Devotee (2): They'll say intelligence is not dependent on the size of the brain. Prabhupāda: They say anything because they are rascals. A rascal can say anything. Pāgale ki nā bale chāgale kibā nā khāya: "A madman, what he does not say? And a goat, what he does not eat?" (laughter) *Pañca*-draviḍa: [break] ...Vedic civili... *Prabhupāda: Vedic civilization means you don't talk rascal. Hear only. Śruti. This is Vedic civilization: "You rascal, don't talk. Simply hear." This is Vedic civilization, śruti. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] "Go to guru and hear from him." That is Vedic civilization. Don't talk, rascal. This is Vedic civilization. And Vedic civilization begins, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is Vedic civilization: "Don't talk, rascal. Just, just carry out what I say." This is Vedic civilization. Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in one BTG article, you listed... Prabhupāda: Eh? Rādhāvallabha: In one BTG article, you described increase in women population as a natural disaster. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhāvallabha: So when one woman read this article, she became very angry. She came back and was very angry. Prabhupāda: She may be angry. She is woman and man. Actually this is physiological. If a man is too much addicted to sex life, he'll become impotent, and if he begets child, it will be a girl. With no potency to give birth to a male child.... That requires potency. Haṁsadūta: When we were going around in London making life members, I noticed that in so many families, all the children are girls. Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole world is full of girls, girl children. Why? There is no potency. Potency finished. Or impotent. And if you keep one boy brahmacārī, no sex life, and get him married, the first child must be a boy, must be, without any doubt. Lokanātha: That means, then, woman is more potent than... *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes. The Āyur*-vedic formula is that when there is discharge, woman's discharge, more, means girl, and man's discharge, more, means boy. This is physiological. Rāmeśvara: The women argue that they are stronger than the men. Prabhupāda: Yes. You are stronger than the man, that when there is fight, the man goes; you do not go. You are so strong. You are simply ravished in the absence of your husband. That's all. Rāmeśvara: Now.... The women are joining the Army in America now. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen a police in London. So I told that "If I catch your hand and give you a slap, where is your police?" (laughter) "I am old man. If I catch your hand and give you a slap, what police action will be there?" *Pañca*-draviḍa: Prabhupāda, who is that prostitute the gopīs refer to...? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Pañca*-draviḍa: In the Kṛṣṇa book the gopīs say that "The great prostitute," I forget the name, "Pimba," or something, "says that..." Prabhupāda: Kubjā, Kubjā, Kubjā. Satsvarūpa: Disappointment. Prabhupāda: Kubjā. Devotee: Kubjā? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Yeah, she said.... That prostitute has said "Disappointment is the greatest pleasure." Prabhupāda: Oh. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Gives rise to the highest pleasure." *Pañca*-draviḍa: The gopīs refer to that when they... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Who was that prostitute? Prabhupāda: Why you are asking me? (laughter) As if I have to keep account of prostitute. (laughter) What is this nonsense? There was a big educationist, Visacandra Vidyasagara(?). So.... So to show compassion to the prostitutes, at night in a.... In India I have seen in our childhood, prostitute, they stand on the road. And in Paris I have seen. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, everywhere. *Prabhupāda: Everywhere, they.... So, so they're standing-no customer at two o'clock. It is very cold. So Vidyasagara will take compassion: "All right, you take two rupees. Go home. Sleep." And that is in Vidyasagara's life, compassionate to the prostitute. By giving her two rupees, will she change her profession? But this learned man, he thought like that, that "She is standing in the severe cold. All right, let me.... Let me.... Let me give her two rupees. Then go home. Don't take so much..." He's Vidyasagara. The vidyā-sāgara means "ocean of education." And Haridāsa Ṭhākura*-a prostitute came for three nights and converted her to a devotee. That's it. That is real compassion, not that "Take two rupees and go home." No. Turn her. That is real compassion, to turn everyone to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the greatest welfare activity in the world. Otherwise there cannot be any peace or prosperity. Where is Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, he had a cold, and he's lying down. Prabhupāda: Oh. Why cold? Lokanātha: In *Bhāgavatam*, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are mentioning that prostitute is needed in the society. Prabhupāda: Yes, for the rascals. Otherwise they will pollute the innocent girls. The innocent girls.... That is the policy of the Western civilization, that "Let the karmīs enjoy new, new girls and be energetic to produce machine." This is the European civilization, American civilization. Because the karmīs, unless they have sufficient sex intercourse, they cannot work, so this is the policy: "Let all the girls remain open." They.... "Let them use and produce atomic bomb. Show your brain." The.... Just like the marriage.... According to Vedic civilization, marriage is allowed to the karmīs. It is not that marriage allowed to the sannyāsī or brahmacārī. The karmīs require sex. Therefore.... Why marriage is allowed to the gṛhastha? Why not to the brahmacārī, vānaprastha or sannyāsī? Why it is not recommended? Because the karmīs require that enlivenment. Therefore they are allowed to marry. So in the European civilization it is only karmīs. There is no question of brahmacārī, vānaprastha or sannyāsa. There is no such idea. Therefore they want new, new girls. And that they have kept, this artificial law. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Outlawing prostitution. Prabhupāda: Yes. And no prostitution. And no prostitution, what means? That means there is prostitutes in the society. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Everybody's a prostitute. Prabhupāda: Now, the Vedic civilization is "All right, you are not satisfied, one woman, don't pollute the innocent girls or in the home. Go to the prostitute." Still, in big, big cities, there is a quarter, prostitute quarter, still. They are professional prostitutes. *Pañca*-draviḍa: What was the Vedic punishment if somebody broke these moral principles? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Pañca*-draviḍa: What would be the punishment in a Vedic society if somebody... Prabhupāda: Oh. Picture, Fifth Canto. You see the description of the hell. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Hell. But I mean, within the society itself, there was punishment there also from the king? Prabhupāda: Everyone who will commit sinful activities will be punished. That is nature's law. Exactly like that: If you infect some disease, you must suffer from that disease. The nature's law is so strict, and it is going on. It doesn't require any supervision. The supervisions are already made so perfect. You infect this disease: you suffer from it. That's all. *Pañca*-draviḍa: In.... In the society, if somebody would be... Prabhupāda: Anywhere, if you break the laws, you suffer. Anywhere. Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, science has develop methods where they can have sense gratification and.... Just like if they get some disease they can give them some medicine, and then the disease goes away very easily. So in this way, they're actually giving more facility for more sense gratification. Prabhupāda: So do you like to accept it, that disease? Therefore it has been condemned, prāyaścitta. Perhaps you have read it in the beginning of Sixth Canto. Prāyaścitta... Parīkṣit Mahārāja condemned, "What is the use of this Vedic prāyaścitta if it is suffering, again and again? Then what is the use?" That he has condemned. But prāyaścitta vimarśanam. Therefore the rascal should be given knowledge that "You are attacked with some disease. Very good. You are injected with some medicine. You are cured. Then again you are attacked. So why you are going in this way? Stop it." And that is knowledge. That knowledge is also not perfect, because even a man in knowledge, he knows that "If I go to prostitute, I'll be attacked with syphilitic poison, and last time I had the same trouble. I had to spend so much money." But still he'll go, because he has no knowledge. So even one has no knowledge, if he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he becomes detestful: "Oh..." That is the, mean, gift of bhakti. That the whole world is dark, misty. So you can invent so many means. Just like they have got, what is called, crackers? In the mist? Sometimes that is blown so that warn people that "Don't come here. There is danger." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Flares. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So you can invent so many means of curing the danger. But as soon as the sun is there, immediately all mist is over. Similarly, we have invented so many medicines and counteractions for so many things. But if one becomes a devotee, all these troubles immediately.... That is the only one medicine. He has no more any inclination. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: [Cc. Madhya 22.42] "No more I want." And that is wanted. [break] ...asmi varaṁ na yāce. One should be fully satisfied: "No more I want this material disease. That's all. Enough of it." That mentality required: "I don't want anything material facility." Sannyāsa means that, that "I shall live with the minimum necessities of life and simply devote..." That is sannyāsa. "I shall become a sannyāsī and enjoy all material facilities"*-that is not sannyāsa. [break] ...recommended that "If there is no need, don't take even cloth. Remain naked." That is sannyāsa. But because we have to preach, because we have to go the people, therefore some covering. Otherwise, this is also not necessary for a sannyāsī. Nothing. Lie down on the floor like the Śukadeva Gosvāmī said, and take water in your palm, no dress. Śukadeva was also not dressing, naked. That is the perfection of sannyāsa. [break] Where is Jayapatākā? [break] ...talk with this boy. He wanted to.... [break] ...make. He's offering a land. Did you talk with him? Jayapatākā: No. I sent.... Śatadhanya talked with him. Śatadhanya: This man right here? Jayapatākā: No, a different. This boy? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śatadhanya: Yeah, we gave him one room last night. He's staying. And prasāda. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Bengali [break] Jayapatākā: The Gurukula teachers had one question, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: At one time, you had instructed that all the children should attend the main class. They say that some of the very small children have trouble to keep their attention... Prabhupāda: No, no. Not small... Jayapatākā: So they found that if they attend a separate... Prabhupāda: It is common sense. Also attend many child in the lap of his mother. You see? He should also...? *Jayapatākā: Yeah, they find those seven-, eight*-year-old, they attend better a small, private reading. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. But one thing is that if they can attend, even by hearing the Vedic mantras they'll be benefited. Even they.... Therefore I give stress on chanting the mantra, so that if one cannot chant and can under.... Simply by hearing, he'll be benefited. [break] Hm. Jayapatākā: I haven't seen personally. Have you seen them outside? It was supposed to be... Prabhupāda: So, where is the painting? Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara said it's ready to see. Prabhupāda: Oh. Then let us go see. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] Little dark is. But not bad. Yes. Rāmeśvara: Jadurāṇī was saying he paints dark. He usually.... His style is to paint with dark colors Prabhupāda: No, no. It should be bright because... Devotee (3): Effulgent. Rādhāvallabha: Also, he was worried that when the sun hits it, after a certain time it will just fade away. Prabhupāda: Then we should use such color which may not fade away. The picture is all right. The picture is all right. Simply it has to be made more bright. It is India. It is not London, always foggy. (laughter) (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 21, 1976, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: ...met recently our Lalitā Cācā? You did not? Bhavānanda: Who is that? Prabhupāda: Lalitā, Lalitā, Lalitā Ṭhākura or... Bhavānanda: Lalitā. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Lalitā Prasāda? Prabhupāda: Huh, huh. Bhavānanda: In Birnagara, no. Jayapatākā has been there, but I haven't been there in years. [break] Prabhupāda: ...moon is hot, they say, because the shade of the earth is obstructing. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is it not? Devotees: Yes. Trivikrama: They say that the sun is hitting like that. Prabhupāda: Eh? The sun is there, and the earth is there. How it becomes...? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The earth is bet.... The earth is between the sun and the moon. Therefore there's some... Prabhupāda: That's all right, in between. Haṁsadūta: No, no. They say that the sun's rays are striking it, only half. The other half is in shadow. Prabhupāda: What is that shadow? Devotee (1): Night. Like nighttime on the earth. Haṁsadūta: Shadow. Like a ball. If I have a ball and shine a light on it, then... Prabhupāda: No. No, no. Shadow. Haṁsadūta: ...this side will be in shadow. Prabhupāda: Shadow.... "Shadow" means earthly shadow? No. Haṁsadūta: No no, no. Its own shadow. If this is a ball, and the light is coming from here, see, this portion will be in darkness or shadow. And the other portion will reflect light. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's not the modern theory. Devotees: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Is that all right? Explanation? Devotee (1): Sounds all right. Haṁsadūta: That's what they say. Prabhupāda: "They say." What you say? Haṁsadūta: We don't know anything. After meeting you, we wonder if we know anything, because we thought the moon was going around the earth. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What shadow is that? The moon casts its own shadow. Haṁsadūta: That's what they say. Prabhupāda: They, their explanation is... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Half the moon is in darkness. Trivikrama: Yeah, the back side. Prabhupāda: The back side. Trivikrama: The back side of the moon. That's what we're seeing now. The sun's here, hitting... Prabhupāda: I can understand now. That means moon. Moon is.... A portion is bright. Devotees: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Half of it is always bright. Devotee: Yes. The part that's facing the sun. *Pṛthu*-putra: But this is less than half. Prabhupāda: And when they go to the moon planet, they go to the dark side. Is it not? Haṁsadūta: No. *Pañca*-draviḍa: No, they say they go to the light side, too. Haṁsadūta: No, they say the dark side is so cold that no one can.... Because there's no sunlight, it is so cold. Prabhupāda: That means they have no experience of all the sides of the moon. Haṁsadūta: No, they don't. They only have one side, experiencing. Prabhupāda: So, so what is the cause of the brightness? *Pañca*-draviḍa: The sun. Prabhupāda: They have brought some dust, but this is not bright. Trivikrama: They say it's reflected light. Prabhupāda: That's all right. What is the material that makes it so bright so that whole universe is illuminated? Haṁsadūta: There's no comment on that point. *Pṛthu*-putra: They don't know that. Prabhupāda: They have brought some dust, but that is not bright. They have said.... The other scientists, they said, "This kind of dust can be available here." Just see. Now, how it is bright? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Well, they say that from space the earth would be bright also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: The nonsense may say anything. But our common sense that if the, there is some ingredient in this moon which makes it bright, so they have brought the dust, but other scientists say that this dust can be available here. *Pañca*-draviḍa: So it may be cheating. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Actually, they have not proved anything. Prabhupāda: That is my contention. Trivikrama: They say the moon is bright, just like if a cloud is in the sky, it appears very white and bright because the sun is hitting it. But the same cloud, if you bring it into the room, it's just mist. Prabhupāda: But cloud is not always existing. But this brightness is always existing. Cloud is sometimes appearing, sometimes disappearing. The moon brightness is regular. How you can compare with cloud? When you compare, there must be consistency. Analogy. Analogy means similar position. Otherwise, analogy has no meaning. Haṁsadūta: Here's Jayapatākā. Prabhupāda: Ah! [break].... Our Lalitā Cācā wants to do? You met him recently? Jayapatākā: Oh. So his point is... Prabhupāda: Does he want to do something or simply speculate? Jayapatākā: He says that he wants to do something and so does some of his people. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: But he has a committee. He has a society. One Mr. Bhattacarya, who is a lawyer, and this Śacīnandana, who is a clerk. Prabhupāda: But that's all right. What they want to do? Jayapatākā: But they never.... We never spoke to those people. Prabhupāda: I have told him that "Whatever you want to give us, give us. If you cannot give us, give us in lease. You remain your proprietor, but give us in lease, and we develop it." But he has never replied that. What does he want to do? Jayapatākā: Before he finalized once, he said he wanted to speak to you once more. But never was the thing actually discussed in detail with Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: It was discussed. And he agreed, "Yes," but his man has different idea. So if you think that he's serious, we can go today sometime. How long it takes by car? Jayapatākā: It takes about an hour. Prabhupāda: Hour. Jayapatākā: But actually it's on the route to Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Oh. So we can.... But that will be very hastily. That.... The road is all right? Jayapatākā: That.... The road to his place is all right. There's a shortcut from Krishnagara; if that's taken, then for a while, one kilometer, there's kacā road. After that, there's very, there's clear road with no traffic. Otherwise, if we.... We normally take that in the vans and in the jeep. We save about half an hour. But that way you have to go through one mile of kacā road. Otherwise, if you go by all pākā road, then it's a good road. Just takes a... Prabhupāda: No, we shall go... Jayapatākā: ...little longer. Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. We shall go by the pākā. Kacā road may damage the car. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that today or tomorrow, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. On the way to Calcutta, talking will not be very serious because we'll be busy to go fast. Jayapatākā: We'd be in a hurry. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. Yes. [break] So what is the use of such men? Why he's keeping these men? They cannot do anything. He gets some pension. Who spends that money? But they are not doing anything. So what is the meaning of this count? Jayapatākā: He admits that many times he has told some of them to leave their family life and take up some preaching, but they don't do it. Prabhupāda: How they'll do it? They do not know how to preach, neither they are trained up. That means it is his disqualification. He could not train them how to preach. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was training Haridāsa Ṭhākura, Nityānanda, "Go there. Preach there. Do that." My Guru Mahārāja was doing that. But he has no power. He cannot do it. He simply talks that he is a very confidential devotee. That's all. He cannot preach. Otherwise Prabhupāda developed this Māyāpura, and he could not do anything. That means he has no power. Jayapatākā: He should have developed that place. Prabhupāda: Yes. He simply talks of big, big words. In the beginning, Prabhupāda had no committee, nothing of the sort. That he'll not admit, that he has no power to do so. He's simply thinks that he's very confidential son of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. That's his.... [break] ...nobody has seen his chief disciple? He lives in Calcutta. Jayapatākā: Yeah, he's not actually a bābājī. He's gṛhastha. Prabhupāda: Oh, but he lives like a bābājī dress. Jayapatākā: I don't know anyone lives by bābājī... He wears dhotī. Prabhupāda: What is his name? Jayapatākā: Śacīnandana. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, Śacīnandana. So he.... I have seen several times. He's like bābājī, but what he is? Jayapatākā: He's a clerk. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: He's a clerk. Prabhupāda: Clerk. And he's the chief man. Jayapatākā: He's a secretary. They have lawyer also, but he is the treasurer or something. I've only met with Śacīnandana. [break] He does some preaching. He goes to Bangladesh and does kīrtana on village to village sometimes. [break] ...if they give us the place or lease... Prabhupāda: What is the use of talking? Jayapatākā: What is the use of talking with Lalitā Prasāda? *Prabhupāda: Eh? No. That was the.... Last talk was like that. I wanted that "You have to consider that whatever portion you can spare, give us on lease. We develop." That's all. Ninety*-nine-year lease. Jayapatākā: I don't think he clearly understood. [break] Hm? *Pañca*-draviḍa: In what way would we develop it? Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's birthplace? Make some nice building with some devotees, one to take care. That's all. Means making interested the local inhabitants. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Start programs. Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. They should come and hear. The preachers, wanted. Jayapatākā: They showed me that one flat of five bighās that.... They were considering giving this to us if we would develop one guesthouse and one institute. Prabhupāda: No, they cannot make any condition. Whatever we shall like we shall do. There is no condition. If they give us on lease, they are concerned with the rent. That's all. Yes. Jayapatākā: But they were willing to give outright. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: They were going to give outright one piece of land. They just requested that.... Their idea was that they hoped there would be a, some place for studying Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's books, one type of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura institute or library where people could.... All of his books would be collected, and his works... Prabhupāda: Oh, that is a good idea. That we can do. Jayapatākā: And some place for studying also. Prabhupāda: Hm. Five bighās. That we can do. If they agree, then let them give us. We shall do. *Jayapatākā: Lalitā Prasāda Ṭhākura was saying that.... He was feeling that one more interview with you was necessary. However, I'm reluctant to say to go today because I haven't seen him for a month or two, and I don't want a two*-three hour trip to just go. Maybe nothing may come of it. That's why I'm thinking on the way to Calcutta there would be more..., wouldn't be much expenditure of time, I mean, as far as traveling goes. And let's say, if something comes of it, then it's all right. If something doesn't come, it's not such a great loss. Prabhupāda: All right, we can do that. Then we shall go by the nice... Jayapatākā: Oh, yes. The nice. There's only one little bridge. Other than that, everything is all right. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: There's one bridge like we went over yesterday. That's a little.... Otherwise, everywhere... Prabhupāda: No, no, bridge, it is in good condition or not? Sometimes it is.... Last time we went, that injured.... It made some damage. Jayapatākā: On what? Prabhupāda: The car was damaged. Jayapatākā: Oh, it won't damage the car. Prabhupāda: Oh. That is our concern. If the car is damaged, that is not good. Jayapatākā: The last journey there was some damage on the car? Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No damage on our car. Prabhupāda: No, no. Last time when I went. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Last time, when Prabhupāda went. Jayapatākā: Oh, no, since then they've improved the road. Oh, that road has been paved now. Pākā road. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayapatākā: [break] ...there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They've got a mango orchard also. What time will you be leaving here tomorrow? Prabhupāda: Early in the morning. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Five. *Prabhupāda: Or when...? As you like. I have no.... [break] They.... How we see the sun is fixed up? The sun is moving, we see, so quickly. And the moon is moving, but it does not move. It is fixed up. Mean regarding the time, you can see practically, the sun is moving. And they say it is fixed up. The fixed*-up article is moving quickly, and the moving article is fixed up. Why? *Pañca*-draviḍa: When a train is in the station, when the train pulls out of the station, when you're in the train, it looks like that the station is moving and you're standing still. Prabhupāda: Train has got different movement. But that means it has got different movement? Your analogy is imperfect. *Pañca*-draviḍa: No, but if we... Prabhupāda: You cannot compare with train because train has got different movement. But they haven't got different movement. *Pañca*-draviḍa: But if this was moving at the same speed as the earth, it would appear to be fixed up. If the moon and the earth were both moving at the same speed, it would appear to be fixed up. *Prabhupāda: No. We see practically. Now we are standing. We see the sun is moving. It comes. And the moon is moving, but it is fixed up. Why it is? The moving matter is stand still, and the fixed*-up matter is moving. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Actually, it's we who are moving. The sun is... Prabhupāda: But my speed is the same. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: My, this earthly moving, that speed is the same. Why you find different position? Just consider with brain. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If the moon is closer than the sun, according to the scientist's philosophy... Prabhupāda: Philosophy.... But we see, I mean, a distant matter is moving. We can see. And nearer we cannot see. It is fixed up. What is this? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you take a bicycle wheel, a spoke... Prabhupāda: A bicycle you cannot concern. Bicycle or train, they have got different speed. You cannot compare. That analogy will not... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Say you take one spoke, one... Prabhupāda: No, no, we, cannot.... You cannot bring bicycles in discussion first of all. You can talk all this to the fools. Analogy cannot be accepted unless they are similar. *Pañca*-draviḍa: The moon is locked up. The moon is in the same... Prabhupāda: That means you are suggesting simply. You have no clear idea. Actually the sun is moving. That is my point. Such a huge, gigantic matter, and we see, so quickly.... From the sunrise, now, it is not even fifteen minutes. Just imagine how big speed is there is. Jayapatākā: But it is not so fast at midday. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: It is not so fast at midday. Prabhupāda: No. Eh? No... Jayapatākā: At midday, it is not so... Prabhupāda: Faster, fast..., it is fast also. But because on the head. The speed is the same. You cannot say... *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One point is there, though, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If the moon is illuminating*-it gives off its own light-then why can we only see half of the moon now? Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If the moon is illuminating, why can we only see half of the moon? Prabhupāda: They say there is half of the illuminating. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, because it's reflected from the sun. Prabhupāda: The shadow, then there is shadow. It is being shadowed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If it's reflection. Prabhupāda: No, reflection we do not accept. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's illuminating. Prabhupāda: It is Illuminating. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Giving off light. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then why is it that we can only see half of the moon, then? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Half moon. Prabhupāda: About these movements, my position is different. My position is.... There is two movements, a sun movement and the whole planetary system movement. So according to the movement.... That is explained in the *Bhāgavatam*. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Why is it sometimes there's only quarter moon, no moon, half moon, full moon? Prabhupāda: The same explanation. On the whole, we have to accept that something wonderful is going on. And that is Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Trivikrama: Jaya. *Prabhupāda: You cannot explain. You, you rascal scientists, from so much distant, you have calculated, "This is thi..." This is all wrong. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ. They are carrying order of Kṛṣṇa, not your order. Yasyājñayā. "By the order of Govinda," not your order. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. *Pañca*-draviḍa: [break] "There may be a God, but all these stories..." Prabhupāda: "There may be." That is rascaldom. *Pañca*-draviḍa: All these stories about Him... Prabhupāda: Anyone who says "maybe," he's not scientist. He's a rascal. Then why shall I hear him? Rascal. Why shall I waste my time? I am not going to waste my time to hear a rascal. How can I? I have got value of my time. As soon as he says "Maybe there is God," he's a rascal. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Then, if he says... Prabhupāda: Now, just like if somebody says, "Maybe there is a president," he's a rascal. He does not know what is the history, what is the constitution. He does not know. So why a gentleman should waste a time with such a rascal who says, "There may be a president"? Immediately he becomes a rascal. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Then he says, "There is a God, but all these stories about Him and His activities, they are just imaginations." Prabhupāda: That's right. You do not know what is God, after all. "There may be." Then who is going to hear you? You do not know. Your statement is also another story. *Pañca*-draviḍa: I am not a scientist. Prabhupāda: No, no. The scientists, if they say "There may be God," that means he's a rascal. Scientist means, whatever he will say, that is accurate. That is scientist. What is the difference between a layman and scientist? That is the difference. The scientist will say what is actual fact. That is scientist. *Pañca*-draviḍa: They only accept... Prabhupāda: That is not scientist, that he..., "maybe, perhaps..." That is not scientist. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Well, they only accept what they can confirm by experimentation. *Prabhupāda: That means their experiment is not perfect. Their observation is not perfect*-vague idea. So how he can become a scientist? That is no scientist. *Pañca*-draviḍa: What is the position of one who accepts God, that there is.... [break] (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 22, 1976, Mayapüra Prabhupāda: Yei bhaje sei boro. Here is woman (indistinct) engaged in worshiping (indistinct), she is great. Yei bhaje sei boro. So why should we hurt woman? Anyone who is engaged in service, he is big. The dress is not important. The advancement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is important. We have to see from that formula. Just like we sometimes have to dress like ordinary gentleman and sell books. Does it mean he is deviating? No. He's serving Kṛṣṇa, dress or no dress. It doesn't matter. If you stick to the dress, "Oh, I have taken sannyāsī, I cannot..." He cannot sell the books. Where is your service influence? You must give service first. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Is that Līlāvatī? No. It is Līlāvatī? No. I was thinking that she is Līlāvatī dressed like a widow, because she never likes to be widow. (laughter) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's Hridayānanda's old wife. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's Hridayānanda's old wife. Prabhupāda: Oh, Dayānanda's? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hridayānanda Swami. Prabhupāda: Oh. Pañcadraviḍa: She is widow. Prabhupāda: Nobody is widow, because Kṛṣṇa is ultimate husband. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Jaya Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Jaya! Children: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Jaya Prabhupāda! Jaya Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Jaya! Children: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Hari bol! Prabhupāda: Hari bol! So where is the artist for painting? Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Photograph? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Make the bullock cart an international. They'll be surprised. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhakti kaile sarva*-karma kṛta haya. We must be always convinced that if we simply take up the knowledge given by Kṛṣṇa, then you are perfect. That's all. If little success is there for me than other swamis and yogis, it is due to my conviction on this point. I never compromised with anything which is not spoken by Kṛṣṇa. Did you mark it or not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Devotee: One time you told us, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to meet every man at his door and ask him to give up everything he knows and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is simple. "You rascal, you give up whatever you have learned, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Don't say "rascal," but indirectly (laughter), that "Whatever you have learned, it is all nonsense." Sakalam eva vihāya dūrāt, "You give up everything, kicked out, and simply become adherent to Caitanya." This is our preaching. And what Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128], that's all. Because ultimately He is Kṛṣṇa. Pañcadraviḍa: Can you repeat why you said you have been successful where others have not? *Prabhupāda: Because I stick to Kṛṣṇa's word. I, therefore, present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. We do not make any amendment nor accept any amendment. And, therefore, we decry everything-Gandhi, Dr. Radhakrishnan, Aurobindo, this, that*-all rascals. Because they tried to amend it. That is admitted by the science professor. They have all tried to make it modernized, but I have not done. Here is the spiritual master in the disciplic succession, so we remain indebted to him to understand the original traditional knowledge. Devotee: Also that professor from Mexico City, he appreciated. *Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone who is after truth will accept. If he's a bogus, if you want to be cheated and cheat others, that will not. Ninety*-nine percent, they are cheaters and cheated. This is the position. All these cheaters they are cheating, and they accept to be cheated. If I am very clever that I don't want to be cheated, then nobody can cheat me. But these rascals, they want to be cheated. If you say, "No, no, what is the wrong in illicit sex?" That means you want to be cheated. And if you say, "(indistinct) this swami is very conservative." This is the position. We want cheap things because we want to be cheated. And there are so many cheaters, they will take advantage and cheat you. This is going on. Pañcadraviḍa: Allen Ginsberg, he said that, that you were very conservative. Prabhupāda: Yes, because he wants to be cheated. And he cheats others. Some followers, he is cheating. Pañcadraviḍa: Yato mat tato pat. Prabhupāda: Yato mat tato pat. Yes, this is going on. This business, cheaters and cheated. We preach to one, the innocent persons who are being cheated, and we don't want to cheat anybody, but what Kṛṣṇa says. Our business is very simple. Devotee: So we should expose these bogus... Prabhupāda: Yes, we are exposing, that is our business. Devotee: Actually, by making such wonders they are exposing themselves. Prabhupāda: That is fact. *Devotee: Just like Guru Maharaj*-ji. *Prabhupāda: Anyone, why Guru Maharaj*-ji, any Mahārāja. Any man who will speak something which is not in the instruction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Kṛṣṇa, he is cheating. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if we take that we are the only way, then people call us fanatics. Prabhupāda: They may say. They are themselves fanatics. Who cares for them? If a madman says you are madman, I have to accept? No. He must be a sane man. Then there is some meaning. He is calling me madman, but he is a... If I am blind and if another man, he is blind, he says you are blind, so what is the use? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So is the principle to first prove that they are insane and then afterwards that we're sane, or first to prove that we're sane and then... Prabhupāda: Our proof is that we are following the sane man's instruction, or sane being, the Supreme Being. There cannot be any mistake. Therefore, we are sane. Devotee: They say they are also following. Prabhupāda: No. Therefore, why they are changing? We don't change, millions of years. What Kṛṣṇa said, we are following the same. But they change every year. Pañcadraviḍa: That Vairagi Bhava, he showed up in Hong Kong, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Pañcadraviḍa: You know that person who gives us the mandir in Vrndavana and... What's his name? We stay at that Fogal Ashram every year? Vairagi Bhava? Prabhupāda: Vairagi Bhava. Pañcadraviḍa: He showed up in Hong Kong. He said that "There are two great influences in my life: one Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who taught me service..., who taught me devotion," and he said, "Ramakrishna, who taught us service to man." He also showed up with one woman sannyāsīni or something. Devotee: Service to man. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Especially woman. (laughter) *Pañcadraviḍa: And wearing saffron too. You gave him an offer he could travel and become..., and take part in our movement if he was willing to preach Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pañcadraviḍa: He did not accept. *Prabhupāda: That means he wants to cheat. (loud kīrtana*-end) *Talk at Rädhä*-Govinda Mandir--March 24, 1976, Calcutta *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) This Rādhā*-Govinda Deity is very old Deity of the Mullik family. I think not less than two hundred years ago this Deity was established by the mother of Kashinath Mullik. I think you might have heard, another Kashi..., original Kashinath Mullik. I think his father's name was Gaura Mohan Mullik. Am I right? Indian man: Citra Das. *Prabhupāda: Citra Das. No. No, Kashinath Mullik's father? So gradually this whole quarters belonged to this Mullik family. Still in front of this temple there is Gangara(?) building. That is also the property of Rādhā*-Govinda. And as I have shown in coming, our house was just behind the present Govinda Bhavana. And we had the opportunity of seeing this Rādhā-Govinda from very childhood. When I was three or four years old I used to visit this Rādhā-Govinda daily. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Rādhā*-Govinda! Jaya Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: And that is the inspiration of my devotional life. Then I asked my father that "Give me Rādhā*-Govinda Deity; *I shall worship." So my father was also Vaiṣṇava. He gave me small Rādhā-Govinda Deity. I was worshiping in my house. Whatever I was eating, I was offering, and I was following the ceremonies of this Rādhā-Govinda with my small Deity. That Deity is still existing. I have given to my sister. So then I introduced Ratha-yātrā. So I.... My Ratha-yātrā was being performed very gloriously. My father used to spend money. In those days ten rupees, twenty rupees was sufficient. I hired one kīrtana party and a small friends, they..., I think the brother of the present generation, and there was another De family here, so we performed this Ratha-yātrā ceremony. According to our children's imagination, it was very gorgeous. So I think our present Manmohan.... His name is? Gabhur Bhavana? (Bengali) Gopishvara Mullik. That Gopishvara Mullik was my father's friend. So he was criticizing my father that "You are performing Ratha-yātrā ceremony and you are not inviting us." So my father said, "That is children's play. What shall I invite you? You are very big man." "Oh, so you are avoiding. In the name of children you are avoiding us." On the whole, this Ratha-yātrā festival was very gorgeously.... Then imitating me, the other, my brother like, Kangalu(?), he also introduced Ratha-yātrā. And.... Kangalu. (Bengali) So all of them introduced Ratha-yātrā, and the destination was this Thakurbari, from there. So practically what I am doing now, the same thing, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. I am not doing anything else. You know very well. We are now performing Ratha-yātrā ceremony practically in all big cities of the world, in San Francisco, in... Hari-śauri: Philadelphia. Prabhupāda: Philadelphia, London... Hari-śauri: Melbourne. Prabhupāda: Melbourne, Australia... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Paris. *Prabhupāda: Paris. So the same thing, the same Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship temples and same Ratha-yātrā, in a bigger scale. But the same thing was begun as play from this quarter, this Thakurbari. Indian man: Year 1917. (Bengali) Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I began my.... I think from 1904 or '5, from my very childhood. Indian man: Oh, childhood. Prabhupāda: Yes. At that time perhaps you were not born. (laughter) What is your age now? What is the birth of date? *Indian man: Fifty*-five. *Prabhupāda: Fifty*-five. That means in 1920 you were born? Indian man: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So anyway, this Thakurbari, Rādhā-Govindajī, is my life. That is the beginning of my, this spiritual life. And after so many years, still Rādhā-Govindajī has dragged me. So it is His kindness. So the beginning was the same thing-worship of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. That is I am doing in a bigger scale and a wider scale all over the world. So it is nothing new. So in the one sense, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate [Bg. 6.41]. So although I was not belonging to this family.... Or perhaps originally we belonged to this family, because they are also De, we are De, but practically I was born in this family, and śucīnāṁ śrīmatām. And my father was a very pure Vaiṣṇava. So these opportunities we got. Now it is developed in a wider scale. It is all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement, maybe from my previous life. But you are cooperating, you American and European, so we are spreading the mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, this mission. Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa mission it is practically. Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya, rādhā*-kṛṣṇa nahe anya. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is combination of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir asmād [Cc. Ādi 1.5]. Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, the same Absolute Truth. Rādhārāṇī is the pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa wants to enjoy, He expands His pleasure potency in the form of Rādhārāṇī. And when He wants to spread the loving affairs of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, He takes the form of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and very kindly He gives the love of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has offered Him obeisances, namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. To understand Kṛṣṇa, it takes long, long duration of life. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. And to understand the love of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, it is not so easy thing. But by the grace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu we are understanding. Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. So it is now spreading all over the world. So this is.... About this movement it may be this Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā-Govinda Deity is the, what is called? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Inspiration? Prabhupāda: Inspiration. So you are all fortunate that you have come here. So let us offer our obeisances. *Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! (break*-to car ride) Hari-śauri: Those Deities are very nicely looked after, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: The Deities. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: They are very nicely cared for. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is my inspiration, this Deity. Abhirāma: Should we have some program with these Mulliks sometimes, visit? Prabhupāda: No, no. Our house was here. I am coming almost daily, on every moment. I was playing here. They were all my playmates. The whole this, from that street to this street, that was our house, home. Here is the pharmacy, that Kailash Pharmacy. That was very old. Our limit was coming up to this road and up to that (indistinct) road. Abhirāma: Your father would not let you go any farther than this? *Prabhupāda: In those days who cared for the father? We were coming and.... It was not so congested. There was a riot, Hindu*-Muslim riot. This quarter is Muslim quarter. Oh, in 1911 that was a dangerous day. Perhaps I would have been killed. Riot. Very big riot. This was my school, here, this building. This was my school. And college was Scottish Churches. In this ground we used to play football. Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa. You used to take Jagannātha right through the streets? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How far would you carry Jagannātha? *Prabhupāda: From our house to this Thakurbari, Rādhā*-Govinda's house, coming and going with procession of children and khola, karatāla and everything. Prasādam distribution, everything was there. My father used to encourage. And in those days if my father would spend twenty-five rupees, it was a great festival. Why not? In those days, fifty, sixty years ago, the money value was at least twenty times. So if my father was spending at that time twenty rupees, now it is at least four hundred rupees. So for a children's play four hundred rupees is not a small amount. Abhirāma: At least fifty dollars in American. Prabhupāda: Yes. So my father used to pay. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You hired a saṅkīrtana party? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only two rupees. That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Our young children are very fortunate also. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Our young children. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Very fortunate. That a small child, he'll take little grain of prasādam. He will not touch the big halavā. As soon as I'll give him a little grain, he'll take. Very nice. Abhirāma: [break] ...travel on a coach like this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes, in our childhood. Not so bad. At that time it was not so bad. In 1925 I purchased one Buick car. In our childhood days there was no electricity, and there was no motorcar. No. The tram car was drawn by horses in Calcutta. [break] ...quarter where our temple is situated. This is the best.... (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 25, 1976, Delhi *Prabhupāda: ...means ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā. The more we get material possession, our false egotism increases. "I have got this. I have got this. Who is more powerful than me?" Āḍhyo 'bhijanavān asmi ko 'nyo 'sti sadṛśo mayā. These are described in the Sixteenth Chapter. What is the meaning of this ahaṅkāra? Because vimūḍhātmā, that "I have got this motorcar. I have got this property," but within a second it can be finished. There is another, superior law. That he forgets. He sees actually, but he forgets. That is called vimūḍhātmā. He is seeing, everyone. Of course, our time and nature's time, little different. So many Hitlers, so many Napoleons, so many Gandhis, so many Jawaharlal came and went. But they do not see. Paśyann api na paśyati. They are seeing actually; *still they do not see. Blind. In India the Mohammedans came. They ruled over. Where is the Moghul? The Englishmen came. Where they are? Everything gone. Paśyann api na paśyati. This is called vimūḍhātmā. That is going on. The material civilization means ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā. By false egotism they are bewildered and rascals. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has translated this, that jaḍā-bidyā jato, māyāra vaibhava: "All this material advancement of civilization is the paraphernalia of māyā." Because you cannot enjoy it, but you are thinking, "I possess so much. I possess so much." You'll not be allowed to enjoy, but still.... Therefore all these material possessions are the paraphernalia of māyā. So what is the wrong there? Now, wrong is this, jaḍā-bidyā jato, māyāra vaibhava, tomāra bhajane bādhā. They are hindrances for advancement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the aim of human life. That, you forget that. So tomāra bhajane bādhā, anitya saṁsāre, moha janamiyā. The result is that he becomes more attached to this temporary world and remains the rascal. Because without being rascal, nobody comes in this material world to enjoy. As soon as anyone has come to this material world, he's a rascal. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare (Prema-vivarta). Cyavana: Śrīla Prabhupāda? In some parts of the Bible it describes how things were being carried out, and they say that the activities were going on according to the will of God. Does that mean that there was a God conscious civilization then? Prabhupāda: Activities? These activities are going on. The sun is rising by the will of God; the moon is rising, will of God. You are being punished by the will of God. He is the Supreme. Cyavana: But they described that people were worshiping and that children were being born... Prabhupāda: Eh? Cyavana: Children were being born according to God's will. Prabhupāda: Yes... Cyavana: It's described in certain parts of... Prabhupāda: Children will be born.... If you are.... If the child is sinful, then it will go to the womb of a mother who will kill him. That's all. By the will. By the.... That he should be punished. One who has used contraceptive and abortion method, by the will of God he will enter another mother, and the mother will kill him. Cyavana: But the Bible, it indicates... Prabhupāda: Now, now, you see, try, understand. You are very good Bible quoter, but try to understand each and everything. Simply you go on quoting, but understand what is that quotation. It is by the will of God. You have committed sinful life by contraceptive method. Now you enter in the womb of another mother and be killed. That is Bible. Cyavana: So what is described there was not actually God consciousness or... Prabhupāda: No, it is God consciousness if you understand it, that "I am now being punished by the will of God. I have done sinful activities." That is God conscious. Guru dāsa: God gives what everyone wants. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: If they desire that, they get that. Prabhupāda: : You wanted this punishment; therefore you get it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People are thinking that the punishment is something worse than this, that "This is very nice. We can live here and be happy, and the punishment is in hell." Prabhupāda: No, no. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Here we live happily." *Prabhupāda: That.... No, no. That is the nature of the living being, that he is happy by nature because he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. So ānanda is nature, but he is finding, trying to find out nature in sinful life. Therefore he is being punished. That he does not know. Guru dāsa: So that's his ignorance. Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. His nature is to become happy. He is happy, happy. Just like our natural position is we are healthy. Nature has made this body. But we create such situation that we become ill, sick. And at that time we see, "Oh, I am..." What is that? "I am infected. I have been contaminated." Go to the doctor, injection. But the natural life is no disease. Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But you create a situation; therefore become diseased. Guru dāsa: Otherwise it wouldn't be called "diseased," because it would be normal to be sick. But disease means... Prabhupāda: Normal life means no sickness. Guru dāsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And as soon as there is sickness, that means punishment. So if you want to be punished, then violate the hygienic laws. You can see that there is hospital and medical treatment and medicine*-for whom? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sick people. Prabhupāda: No, for the human society. Not for the birds, beasts. But they follow nature's law. But this rascal violates nature's law and suffers. Yadubara: What about for the devotees, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Sometimes they are very sick, have so many... Prabhupāda: Devotees.... To become devotee is not so cheap thing. You don't think that because you have got a tilaka you have become devotee. Why do you think like that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: That Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, eiṭa eka kalira chelā, nāke tilaka, galaya mālā:(?) "Here is another follower of Kali. He has got tilaka and mālā." Sahaja bhajana kacen māmu, saṅga laiyā pārera wala (?): "He is worshiping, bhajana, taking another's wife." Sahaja bhajana kacen māmu, saṅga laiyā pārera wala, ei ṭa eka kalira chelā: "Here is a servant of Kali. Simply he has changed his dress with tilaka and mālā." Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says. If you take tilaka and mālā and do all nonsense things, then you are not a devotee. You are Kali*-chelā. To become a devotee is not so easy thing. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Devotee means perfect. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Certainly. Devotee means sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. He is above these material laws. That is devotee. Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. He is in the Brahman stage. That is devotee. If you take.... That means sahajiyā. "Because I have got a tilaka and mālā, I have become devotee." This kind of cheating will not do. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And in this modern age, this cheating is very prominent... Prabhupāda: No, no. Modern or old, anyone who is a conditioned soul, he has got cheating propensity, four defects. One of them is the cheating propensity. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. But the mental stage in this age is very strong, mental. They think mentally they have found a solution. Prabhupāda: That they can do. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But they... Prabhupāda: Within mind you can think, "I have become emperor of the world." That you can do. Who can check you? But that is not the actual fact. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is the characteristic. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is mental concoction. Within mind you can think, "I have become the proprietor of the banks, all the banks." Madman that is. He's a madman. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They have so many philosophies, but it's all mental. Prabhupāda: All mental. We say, therefore, don't say "philosophy." We say "mental speculation." Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya. *Prabhupāda: Philosophy means tattva*-darśinaḥ. That is described, tattva-darśinaḥ. One has seen the truth, he is philosopher. And who is hovering in the mental concoction platform, he's a rascal. "I think." This is.... Their all European philosophy is... Ātreya Ṛṣi: "I believe." Prabhupāda: "I believe," "In my opinion." He's a rascal, and he is giving his opinion. Cyavana: Prabhupāda, are the laws of karma written? Prabhupāda: Laws of karma is you touch fire, your finger will be burned. This is laws of karma. You cannot avoid it. Cyavana: They are so complicated, though. Are they actually written? Prabhupāda: That is another.... This is the law of karma. If you do something which is forbidden, then you suffer. This is laws of karma. Or you enjoy. Both good and bad. That is laws of karma. Either you take the result good or the bad. Ātreya Ṛṣi: To a devotee it is very clear, the laws of karma. He sees how that God, Kṛṣṇa, is just. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee means tattva*-darśī. He has seen the real truth. Devotee means who follows Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is giving the real truth. If you take, then you are devotee. If you don't take, you are nondevotee. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the role of mercy if one takes or doesn't take? Prabhupāda: Mercy means.... Suppose you are a devotee. Unknowingly or by some bad habit you have done something wrong. That is excused. But if you intentionally do, that "I am devotee; Kṛṣṇa will excuse me," then you are rascal. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the greatest offense. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Cheating. Cheating Kṛṣṇa. Cheating Kṛṣṇa is no business. That is to be punished. You cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa. But if by accident, knowingly or unknowingly you have done something which is not good, that is excused. Sva*-pāda-mūlaṁ bhajataḥ priyasya. If you are actually, because you have given so much service to Kṛṣṇa, you have become very dear to Him, so unknowingly you have done, committed sin-excused. Bhajataḥ priyasya. This word is used. You must have to become very dear to Him. Then if you accidentally commit some sin, that is excused. Guru dāsa: What does "unknowingly" mean, Śrīla... Prabhupāda: Unknowingly means..., suppose you are a smoker. So now you have given up everything. But in the association of some smoker you incline, "All right, let me smoke." Then you regret, "Oh, I have done this." It can happen. So that is excused. But if you think, "Now I am a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. I can smoke like anything, and everything will be excused," then you are a rascal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are knowing that we are so sinful and we're so rascals, but having the opportunity of association of pure devotee and Kṛṣṇa, that's also mercy... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because we can see that we are..., our hearts are not clean, and we are constantly thinking of māyā... Prabhupāda: Education, education. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is mercy. This is greatest mercy. Prabhupāda: Just like you are being educated. Not that cent percent mark you are getting, but because you are trying to be educated, so that is also good. That is also good. Devotee(1): Therefore the association is most important. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very important, so that if I commit some mistake, I'll regret: "Oh, my other associate, he is not coming to act in that..." That chance he'll get. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So we pay a little attention to Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa gives us a lot of attention. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is mercy. Prabhupāda: If you give.... If you go forward, Kṛṣṇa, one step, He comes forward ten steps. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He runs. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is His mercy. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is mercy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: I just read on one of the pages of that Bhāgavatam where you said in a purport that Kṛṣṇa desires that we go back home a lot more strongly than we desire to go back home. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Therefore He comes. He is very anxious to take back His sons, back to home, back.... Just like father. If he sees, "My son is suffering there, leaving home," he tries to get him back. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Unfortunately we don't even desire. Prabhupāda: And therefore you are madness. Devotee: But the materialists will say... Guru dāsa: Therefore you have come. Devotee: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if God is, if He is actually wanting us to go back, then why is He causing suffering? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: If He wants us to come to back home to Godhead... Prabhupāda: But, you rascal, you are suffering. He says, "Come back." You don't go. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because He has given you freedom and this is... *Prabhupāda: He says, "My dear boy, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]" But you don't do. You must suffer. It is your creation, suffering. You must suffer. *Devotee: They say, "If He is all*-loving, why is He...?" Prabhupāda: Loving, but.... You are.... I love you. I say, "Do this." If you don't do it, then...? Devotee: It's reciprocal. Prabhupāda: Yes. You must suffer. Yadubara: So the suffering is His mercy also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Suffering means he'll be purified. Suffering is the process of purification. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And part of His laws.... It's within His laws. Prabhupāda: You have infected some disease. You suffer. Then the enviousness(?) of Kṛṣṇa will go away by suffering. *Guru dāsa: So the pure devotee is sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So this question of freedom of jīva and control of Kṛṣṇa, that there is freedom but at the same time there is no freedom, is a very fine line between the two that sometimes we do not understand. Prabhupāda: But why don't you understand? Just like you belong to a free nation, the American. Does it mean you are free to do anything and everything? Ātreya Ṛṣi: With your limited freedom. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: There's a fine line between this freedom. Prabhupāda: When you say, "I belong to this free nation," then yes, you are free. But that does not mean that you can do anything and everything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Take that example of the habit, if someone is smoking out of habit. So again. So is he free in that smoking, or is it..., has he completely surrendered his freedom? Prabhupāda: No, no.... These things are very common. Just like in your country the government has written on the cigarette box, "It is harmful to health." But if you still smoke at your risk, do it. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So freedom.... You can smoke, but you cannot avoid suffering from the result. Prabhupāda: Yes, from the result. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You have to suffer. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is the law. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the law. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And you cannot smoke outside the laws. You cannot smoke a cigarette... Prabhupāda: This is.... Already warning is there that "You smoke; you suffer." And if you still do that, suffer. What can be done? Common thing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The freedom is always there, minute independence. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Minute. Guru dāsa: Freedom with responsibility. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: Just like they say that you have the freedom to yell "There's a fire" in a theater, but you don't do it. Prabhupāda: So many examples are there. Freedom is there, but you are not absolutely free to do whatever you like. Guru dāsa: Because of the stringent laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Because you are small. Just like children. He has got freedom, playing. But when he is doing something wrong, father, "You don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this." But if he does it, even he is children, even he's child, he'll suffer. He cannot say, "I am child. I did not know, father." Then that does not matter. You must suffer. You must suffer, even though you are child. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And, Śrīla Prabhupāda.... Prabhupāda: Father takes care, "My dear child, don't do this. Don't touch fire." But still, he touches; he must suffer. The fire will not excuse because he is child. That is not possible. Nature's law will act. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This idea of freedom and independence, is it possible for anyone theoretically to surrender to Kṛṣṇa at any time? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So let's say someone is in a very degraded condition of life, modes of ignorance, passion. Their mind is always disturbed. Is surrender to Kṛṣṇa.... Is it possible that it can be independent even of the mind? Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In other words, let's say someone's mind is... Prabhupāda: You are independent of mind always. It is your mind. You are not mind. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then you are independent of mind always. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So even a person merged in the mode of ignorance can by some good fortune surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No good fortune. God, Kṛṣṇa, says, "You do it"; you do it. Here immediately you become fortunate. There is no question of waiting for becoming fortunate. You become fortunate immediately. Suppose if I say, "Take this bag, 100,000 dollars." You can take it. Immediately you become rich man. Why don't you take it? *Guru dāsa: How does kṛpā*-siddhi work, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Guru dāsa: Kṛpā*-siddhi. How does that work? *Prabhupāda: Kṛpā*-siddhi means that you are not willing take this bag. I say, "Take it, take it, take it." (laughter) "No." That is kṛpā-siddhi. Even you are unwilling, I give you in your pocket, push it. That is kṛpā-siddhi. (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not wait for that. Yadubara: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Individual's freedom, when he is ignorant, it is not really freedom because it's completely under the control... Prabhupāda: And when he gets the money, and he spends it, and he sees, "My poverty is gone," then he becomes thankful. "Oh, it is so merciful that he has given me this thing." Ātreya Ṛṣi: The individual freedom, when he is in the mode of ignorance, is completely under the laws of material nature. When the individual makes spiritual advancement... Prabhupāda: Individual freedom means.... We should always know our freedom is limited. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Limited. Yes. But... Prabhupāda: So we are not.... Because the Absolute, so how you can..., your freedom can be absolute? Ātreya Ṛṣi: So the karmī thinks.... His freedom is limited to thinking "Am I going to eat this meat rare or well done?" That is the sort of freedom he is getting. Prabhupāda: No, you have to... Ātreya Ṛṣi: Completely ignorance. Prabhupāda: Just like a thief. He also has got the conscience, "Why shall I steal?" Ātreya Ṛṣi: "This or this." Prabhupāda: "This or this." But he knows that "If I do it, I shall be punished." Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. But when an individual spirit... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that actual freedom, though? Is that freedom? Prabhupāda: No, I have already said that you cannot have absolute freedom. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, but is the spirit soul implicated in that decision in any way, or is it just the modes of nature working, "Well, I'll take this instead of that." Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is the spirit soul implicated in that decision, or is it... Prabhupāda: What is that decision? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let's say, "I'll go to the cinema, or I'll go to the restaurant." So is the spirit soul implicated in that decision in any way, or is it simply the three modes of material nature working? Ātreya Ṛṣi: The three modes. Prabhupāda: I do not follow what is your... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a situation. Either I'll go to the cinema or I'll go to the restaurant. So is the spirit soul... Prabhupāda: Both of them are sinful. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So how is the spirit soul involved in it? Is the spirit soul choosing, or is the decision already made by his karma? Prabhupāda: Karma, karma... You can make your kar... You are doing that. Karma you are creating every moment by desire. Karma is.... What is that? Thinking, feeling, willing. You think of something; then you do it. That means you create your karma. You are thinking that "I shall go to the cinema"; then you go. That is karma. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The question is choice. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... Ātreya Ṛṣi: Choice. Prabhupāda: That is desire. Therefore bhakti means you shall not desire anything except to serve Kṛṣṇa. Then you are safe. Because you are desiring so many things for your sense gratification, you are becoming implicated. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. So the point is that if a... Prabhupāda: Just like a good child. He has decided, "I shall do only what my father says." Then he is safe. And as soon as he misuses his indep..., little independence, he is complicated. So decide like that, that "I shall not do anything which is not ordered by Kṛṣṇa." Then it is all right. Otherwise you'll suffer. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Make it zero. Then you are safe. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Simply do, act, what Kṛṣṇa says; then you are safe. Why don't you do that? That is also independence. You are misusing independence. You are misusing. Then you must suffer. The government says, "Do according to the law." Then you are safe. Government will give all protection. And if you violate law, you must suffer. Devotee: So take it that there is a man, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who is not very learned in śāstra, but he only simply does what his guru tells him. Prabhupāda: What is learned? What is learned? A child, does he require learning. When the father says, "You do it," does it require any university education? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: "He is my father." That's all. *Guru dāsa: Nara*-priya(?) do not know śāstras. They know unalloyed devotion. Prabhupāda: No, that is the nature. A child generally abides by the order of the parent. They are playing. The parent says, "Don't do it! Sit down!" Immediately sit down. That is the nature. So why don't you break your nature, that "My duty is to carry out the order of the supreme father?" Then you are safe. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: And when you carry out that order*-you fully surrender-then you enjoy full freedom. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is full freedom. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is the freedom. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is freedom. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is absolute freedom. Prabhupāda: Full freedom means to be under the order of the Supreme. That is full freedom. That is full freedom. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The cinema or restaurant is not freedom. It's completely conditioning under the laws of material nature. But fully surrendered soul is fully free. Prabhupāda: No, no, if you simply, even if you want to go to a cinema... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's still responsible for going. *Prabhupāda: If you ask, "Father, I wish to see cinema," if father says, "All right, we'll go," that is not sinful. But you go in your own whims*-that is sinful. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. Cyavana: Sometimes it's difficult as devotees for us to know whether we're doing the right thing or whether we're just speculating. Prabhupāda: And therefore you have to consult your guru. Cyavana: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's because we are not surrendered. *Cyavana: But even in small things, just day*-to-day activities... Prabhupāda: There is no small thing. Everything big thing for a devotee. Sudāmā: I've discovered, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the way to do that, of course, is to read your books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sudāmā: By reading your books, then all of the... Prabhupāda: Therefore the books are there. Sudāmā: Even practical, everything... Ātreya Ṛṣi: But without attitude of devotion, nothing will work. Prabhupāda: Hm? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Attitude of devotion must be there. Prabhupāda: The attitude, devotion, is there. Otherwise why one should come to our camp? But it must be properly utilized. It should not be misused. If you go to school and if you don't read books, you'll fail in the examination. Guru dāsa: But the attitude of devotion should be there every moment, so everything... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: ...is very meaningful. Everything is a big thing. When we go out we should realize we're doing it for Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: That is said, man*-manā. Think of Kṛṣṇa; *He'll guide you. Very easy thing. Man*-manā. Always think of Kṛṣṇa, then there is no question of falling down. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. These four things, if strictly done, he is safe. He is safe. Always think of Kṛṣṇa, become His devotee, offer Him obeisances and.... Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī, and worship Him. This is Deity worship. That will engage in always in thinking, in offering obeisances. And if we strictly follow only these, these four principles, mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te: "You are coming back to Me without any doubt." But instead of thinking Kṛṣṇa, we are thinking something else, planning something, misusing independence. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhīmasena, I was speaking to him two days ago. He says that he'll turn over that temple to us. He wants to meet you, so I'm going to call him to come and see you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a big talker, but I was flattering him, and I said, "If you transfer it over to..." (laughter) He said, "I'll do it when Prabhupāda comes." So I'll tell him to come and see you today and.... I told him if he transfers it over to us, then we can build better on the top. He has already built something downstairs, and we can make it a very beautiful temple. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll call it Bhīmasena. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants to become famous, so I said, "Everybody will know that you built a temple there." Prabhupāda: So it is good idea. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the location is very good. It's right in the center. And they have Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deities there, plus they have Rāma, Sītā, Lakṣmaṇa, Hanumān, which we can also worship. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Only problem is they have Durgā. Prabhupāda: Durgā, so we can worship, giving Durgā the prasādam of Rāma or Kṛṣṇa. That's it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, something can be worked out. Prabhupāda: Not directly. His prasāda. If we can worship ordinary human being, why not Durgā? But we give prasādam. We shall give. So don't tell all these things now. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I didn't tell him anything. *Prabhupāda: We do not say that we do not believe in the demigods. No, we believe in. But they are servants. That's all. We cannot make the servant and the master on the equal footing. That is all. We worship Durgā, sṛṣṭi*-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā [Bs. 5.44]. Now, what is the function? Icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā govindam ādi... She is acting by the desire of the Supreme Lord, Govinda. Guru dāsa: Better than we are and should be worshiped. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: Better devotee than we are and should be worshiped. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: As a devotee. *Prabhupāda: Yes, she's a devotee. Just like we say "prabhu." Prabhu means your master. So "Because you are devotee, we accept you as master." Master means "I am ready to serve you because you are devotee. I am your servant." Dāsa*-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. "Because you are devotee, I am prepared to serve you. Otherwise not." Cyavana: Do the demigods sometimes forget their positions? *Prabhupāda: Why you are serving me? If I had been an ordinary person, why...? You would have not.... Because you accept that "You are devotee," therefore you serve. So as soon as we find a devotee, immediately serve him. Chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava*-sevā, nistāra pāyeche kebā. Without serving a devotee, who can be elevated? It is our duty. So we can serve the devotee. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Why is... *Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja was offered, "Whatever you like, you take." He said, "No, no, I don't want anything. Please engage me in the service of Your servant." He rejected everything. He simply said, nīja*-dāsya-yogam: "Kindly engage me in the service of Your servant." That is wanted. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Prahlāda Mahārāja... Prabhupāda: He did not want even direct service. "Engage me in Your service," he did not say. Guru dāsa: No. Prabhupāda: He said, "Engage me in Your servant's service." Guru dāsa: So if we see people in the world as potential devotees, we should also serve them so they can become good devotees. Prabhupāda: That is not service. That is mercy. One who is potential devotee, to show him mercy, develop him to become a devotee, that is mercy. That is not service. Service can be rendered to the higher person. And to the lower person you can show your mercy. Guru dāsa: Oh, that's a good distinction. Hari-śauri: That's said in Upadeśāmṛta... Prabhupāda: Yes. One who is lower than you, he requires your mercy. You give him mercy. And who is higher than you, you give him service. Not that Vivekananda did, that everyone service. No, service to the higher person. And to the lower person? Mercy. Guru dāsa: Someone asked me the other day if I knew Swami... Prabhupāda: And equal person? Friendship. Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: With equal, friendship. With higher, service. And with lower, mercy. Guru dāsa: And envious, ignore. Prabhupāda: Yes, ignore. Neutral: "You go to hell. We don't mind." *Guru dāsa: Somebody asked me the other day if I knew Swami Vivekananda. I said "Viveka*-who?" He said, "Vivekananda is very famous in the West. Do you know him?" I said, "Viveka-who? I have never heard of him." Prabhupāda: (chuckles) So he was little surprised. Cyavana: They made some propaganda, that's all. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's Guru dāsa's trick. Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if one serves the higher devotees and shows compassion to less advanced devotees, then where is the question, say, for a position of an advanced devotee who is feeling himself to be the lowest? So is that distinction still there of higher and lower? If he is feeling himself to be the lowest? Prabhupāda: He does not feel lowest. He takes sympathy that "Here is a person. He can be a devotee. So let me raise him to the standard." He does not think that he is lowest. Devotee always thinks that he is lower than the worm. But it is the duty. It is the duty. It does not mean that he is thinking, "I am higher." No. Guru dāsa: That's again mercy. Prabhupāda: Mercy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In other words, he doesn't consider that he's advanced and that therefore he is showing mercy to lower. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He is always thinking, "I am lower than the worm, but Lord Kṛṣṇa wants, so let me do some service. That's all." Guru dāsa: That is our occupation, to show mercy to others. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And amongst devotees, Godbrothers, an advanced devotee is one who sees that "Everybody is serving Kṛṣṇa so nicely..." Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: "...so let me assist them." Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: "Let me facilitate their service." Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we say prabhu. Prabhu means "You are my master. Please order me. What can I do for you?" That should be the attitude. [break] ..."Guru dāsa Prabhu, please come here and brush my shoes." (laughter) What kind of prabhu? He should say, "Guru dāsa Prabhu, can I brush your shoes?" That is real Vaiṣṇava, not that "Guru dāsa Prabhu, come here and brush my shoes." Other devotees, they do not come for morning class? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For the walk? Prabhupāda: Not for walk. At least we shall hold morning class or not? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, Prabhupāda, please. A few devotees are staying at the hotel here. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is a program tonight if you'd rather.... There is a program this evening, going out, the Rotary Club. So if you would rather just give class this evening. Prabhupāda: No, no, regularly we hold morning class anywhere. So.... So that morning class is not going to be held here? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In the temple we have it. They had it this morning, but.... (end) *Conversation with News Reporters-*-March 25, 1976, Delhi *Prabhupāda: They make modernized meaning of Bhagavad*-gītā. That is insanity. Do you agree or... *Reporter (1): What would you regard to be the essence of Bhagavad*-gītā? *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā means that there is God, and we are part and parcel of God. God is great, and we are very tiny, small, fragmental portion of God. In quality we and God are the same, just like a drop of ocean water is qualitatively the same as the big ocean. Reporter (1): Beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: Qualitatively is the same. The drop of ocean water is salty, and the whole ocean is also salty. The salt taste is there, but the drop is never equal to the ocean. This is the difference. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś... This is the Vedic..., that He is also living entity as we are. So we many, plural number.... "We" means living entities. We are many, and He is one. But He is also living entity. Now what is the difference? The difference is that He maintains the plural number living entities. Reporter (1): He maintains the? Prabhupāda: Plural, plural number. Plural. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Plural. Prabhupāda: Living entities. And the plural number living entities are maintained by Him. Reporter (2): In the past.... I should start this way.... This is the first press conference you are holding in Delhi, isn't it? Prabhupāda: You can come forward. Reporter (1): ...if we can finish this answer if you don't mind. If the plural number entities are being maintained by Him... Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. Just like father and he has got many children. So both of them are living entities, but the father maintains the children, and the children are maintained by God. One is maintaining, and others are being maintained. That means dependent. We are dependent on God, or Kṛṣṇa. Reporter (1): But aren't we impure and He is pure? Prabhupāda: No, both of them are. The father... Reporter (1): But then how do we.... Then why do we commit sins? God doesn't. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we are at the present moment in impure condition. That is material. Therefore the human form of life is a chance to be free from the impurity. Reporter (1): But, sir, if we are drop of the same ocean, why should we be impure at all? Prabhupāda: No, no. We are pure constitutionally. Reporter (1): Then from where does this impurity come? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is.... Just like your are healthy, but wherefrom the disease comes? You are not diseased now, but sometimes disease comes. Wherefrom it comes? So at the present moment we are in diseased condition. This has to be cured. Otherwise we are pure, as pure as God. Reporter (1): Then what is the way to purity? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Bhagavad*-gītā. *Reporter (1): You mean the mere recital of Bhagavad*-gītā... Prabhupāda: Not recite, to understand and to act. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prescription. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is the prescription. *Prabhupāda: The whole thing is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Reporter (1): Which particular teachings do you find so uplifting and ennobling for a man? *Prabhupāda: You have read Bhagavad*-gītā? Reporter (1): Yes, I have..., I mean, not so thoroughly, but I have in parts. Prabhupāda: So what is that question? Which part? Reporter (1): Which particular teachings you think can purify a man? Because you said the salvation lies in practical teachings of *Gītā*. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to revive your consciousness that you are part and parcel of God. And the part and parcel of God means to serve God. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body, but it is meant for serving my body. I ask the finger, "Come here"; it is serving me. "Come here"; it is scratching. "Pick up the food. Give it to me"; he is giving it. This is business of the finger. If the finger cannot carry out my order, then it is diseased. And if he immediately carries out order, then it is healthy. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, we must be ready to give service immediately. Then it is healthy condition. And if we do not, then it is māyā. We are serving. You are serving. Everyone is serving, because our constitution is to serve. Big, big leaders, they are also serving. Anyone you can see. The sun, he is serving. Exactly in the time it is rising by the order of God. Exactly in time it is setting. So everyone is serving. Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya: [Cc. Ādi 5.142] "Only master is God, and everyone is His servant." But the diseased condition is that when we do not serve God, we serve something else, māyā, and that is diseased condition. Reporter (1): That is? *Prabhupāda: Diseased condition. Impure condition. At the present moment we have discovered so many services*-national service, communal service, and this service, that service-but nobody is recommending service of God. This is the diseased condition. Therefore we are suffering. Reporter (1): So what do you really mean by arousing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? What does it entail? *Prabhupāda: That means we have to serve Kṛṣṇa. We are serving now non*-Kṛṣṇa. Nothing is non-Kṛṣṇa. Something māyā. Just like dreaming. Dreaming, it is also activity. That is false activity. Reporter (2): Excuse me, may I ask one question if I can, please. You said māyā or disease. Māyā is disease or māyā or many other ailments? By which... Prabhupāda: Māyā is a diseased condition. Reporter (2): Māyā is a diseased condition or many other ailments under who the human beings are affected. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (2): Are these bad conditions or ailments not part and parcel of God? Prabhupāda: Yes. But you are suffering. You should admit. Just like a prison department is part and parcel of the government. But who is in the prison, he is suffering. Reporter (2): That's a very good answer. That's a wonderful answer. Reporter (3): Your Divine Grace, would your message be exactly the same for, say, a starving man in India and a Westerner who's got everything that a person needs? Prabhupāda: We say that not only in India, everyone, you'll starve, because you are rebellious to God consciousness. You must starve. That is the punishment. Just like anyone who is a criminal, he must be punished. That is the law of nature. Reporter (3): So by that, I suppose one would presume that people in India have been most rebellious to God. Prabhupāda: Why India? Everywhere. Why you speak India? Reporter (3): Because... Prabhupāda: When you speak of God, don't take India, or America or Europe. Everywhere. Reporter (3): No. Because the number of starving men here is much larger. *Prabhupāda: You are starving on account of your economic condition being bad or.... I cannot say anything. But they are also starving. You are poor by force, and they sometimes accept poverty voluntarily, just like the hippies. They have enough money. They are coming from very rich father and grandfather, but they lie down on the street, and the police comes and kick them, "Hey, get up! Get up!" Why? Why they have accepted this? So this kind of varieties we find everywhere*-rich man, middle class man, and poverty-stricken man. Don't think that it is in India. I am traveling all over the world. Reporter (1): Swamiji, what do you suggest to your disciples to arouse what you call Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the purificatory process. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.... God is so kind. In this age.... It is meant for every age. Especially this age when we are so much fallen and so much suffering, and neither we are able to act very piously, therefore this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, if you chant, you gradually become purified. Then you come to your own consciousness. Reporter (1): So how would you define sin? What is impurities or to sin? Prabhupāda: You cannot understand impurities? *Reporter (1): I mean, give any clear*-cut definition. Prabhupāda: Just like when you are diseased and the doctor gives you some vaccine and injection to cure you, to make you purified. Is it not? *Reporter (1): No, but could there be any clear*-cut criterion, for example, to say that I have committed sin or I have not committed sin? What is sin? *Prabhupāda: Clear*-cut criterion is that we living entity, being part and parcel, we are as good as God. But when we are under the control of the material nature, that is our diseased condition. Same example. Just like you, as a good citizen, you are as good as Indira Gandhi. You are Indian; you have got all the rights. But if you become criminal, you put into the prison. So we are in the.... Conditioned state means no freedom. It is not clear? Reporter (1): No, sir, I just wanted you to tell me some yardstick from which one could... Prabhupāda: But because you are suffering, that is the sign of impurity. Reporter (1): Beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: Because you are suffering.... Do you admit that you are suffering? Do you know this? Reporter (1): Suffering means that there is some impurity. Prabhupāda: No, are you not suffering? Reporter (1): Yes, everybody is. *Prabhupāda: That is diseased condition. Just like diseased.... When you have got fever-you are suffering*-that is diseased condition. So long you are suffering, you must be aware of the fact that you are in diseased condition. Because you are part and parcel, there is no question of suffering. Sac-cid-ānanda... Reporter (1): But suffering may not necessarily be because of sin. It might be because of something else, you know? Prabhupāda: "Might be something," that is your sinful activities. That "something" is some sinful activity. Reporter (1): Now a poor man suffers of hunger. This is not sin if he doesn't get proper food or anything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. But how you can help? You cannot help. Just like a prisoner in the, suffering in the prison house, you cannot help him. Reporter (1): I may suffer because I have cancer... Prabhupāda: No, first of all you try to understand. Reporter (1): But cancer is not a sin, you know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is sin. Disease means sin. Unless you commit sinful life, there is no question of suffering. Reporter (1): I thought.... But sin has some relation with... Reporter (3): Sometimes the suffering is self brought and sometimes a suffering is brought without self, by nature. *Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no, that is wrong. Every suffering is brought by you, yourself. Just like if you are punished by the high*-court judge to be hanged, you don't make the high-court judge is the cause of your hanging. You made a situation; *the high*-court judge has given you the judgment that you must be hanged. Reporter (2): Would you tell us something about the Vedic city which is being constructed in Māyāpura? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He wants to know something about the Vedic city which is being constructed in Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: Yes, not Vedic city. Vedic planetarium. How you got this information? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He had come to our temple earlier. He's already published one article in yesterday's paper. Reporter (1): Which paper? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This morning I have got. Prabhupāda: You must try to understand that we are suffering on account of our sinful activities. Reporter (1): Sir, I am asking what is sinful activity. Prabhupāda: You do not know? Reporter (1): I don't know. Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish. Prabhupāda: If you go on the street and it is, there is, "Keep to the left," as soon as you go to the right, you suffer. Is it not? Immediately you go to the court. Is it not suffering? No, no, just try to understand. Reporter (1): No, sir, I just wanted to ask you... Prabhupāda: No, no, why wonder? You just try to understand this common sense, that as soon as you go to the street, if the indication is that you must keep your car on the left side and as soon as you go to the right side, you become a criminal immediately. You can say, "What is the wrong? The right side or wrong side, I am driving my car," but it is criminal. You know or not know. Ignorance of law is no excuse. So just similarly there is law of God. So as soon as you violate, you must suffer. You see? Reporter (1): What is that law court? *Prabhupāda: That means you are so ignorant. You are so ignorant. The law of God, law is.... God is personally speaking, "This is the law." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is the law. God is speaking personally, and you do not know? And you are advertising very expert in reading Bhagavad-gītā, and you do not know the law? This is going on. Big, big scholars, big, big monkey, they are reading Bhagavad-gītā three hundred times daily, but do not know what is law. This is going on. In Bengali there is a saying, "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." You know the monkey, big monkey, Hanumānjī. He jumped over. So ask any other monkey, "Can you jump?"-melancholy. (laughter) Similarly, big, big scholars of Bhagavad-gītā and do not know what is the law of God. This is going on. Big, big commentary, big, big book, but the law he does not know. Reporter (2): Your Divine Grace, this is actually not very relevant to the press conference, but have you ever met people like the Sai Baba or Bala Yogeshwara or... Prabhupāda: Why shall I meet these nonsense? Why shall I meet? What is the business? Fools and rascals may meet them. Why shall I meet? What can I get from them? What is their special value? Tell me, why shall I meet? What is the business I have got to meet him? You are suggesting? Reporter (2): No, I mean... Prabhupāda: No, no, why shall I meet? Why you expect like that, I shall meet? Reporter (3): He just wanted to know if you have ever met them. They are also... Prabhupāda: No, no. Why he is...? Why he is asking this? What business I have got to meet with them? What shall I get from them? Reporter (2): Just to discuss metaphysics. Prabhupāda: Yes. If I am taking lesson from Kṛṣṇa, why shall I take lesson from such bogus things? Reporter (3): No, they have also been recognized... Prabhupāda: Who recognized? Who recognized? Reporter (3): As exponent of Hindu thought and... Prabhupāda: : No, no, who recognized? First of all, who recognized? Reporter (3): No, they too have a following in the West. Prabhupāda: That is the defect. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They vote. Just like in big democratic country like America they voted Nixon to become president, and when they found that "This man is a bogus," they again dragged him down. So this is going on. We vote somebody to the topmost position, and we see that he's a rascal. So therefore we do not advise. We say just take lesson from Kṛṣṇa, who is recognized by everyone. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't say, "Go to a bogus man and take instruction." We don't say. *Indian Devotee: May I interrupt? What Swami has described in all the books*-as it exists, no further contribution, no amendment, no interpretation. He has described all what has been written in Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, in its truest form. So no imitation, no representation, no interpretation. Swamiji has described exactly as it happened. Prabhupāda: And that is being appreciated all over the world. Devotee: All over the world that is being appreciated. *Reporter (1): Swamiji, could you please throw light on your four*-point regulation which you suggest to your disciples? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is pious life. No illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, and no gambling. Reporter (1): No? *Prabhupāda: Gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. So if we want to know God, we must be free from sinful life. This is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. If you want to be God conscious, then you must be free from all sinful activities. God is pure. If you want to approach God, then you must be pure. If you remain impure, you cannot understand. Reporter (2): Swamiji, do you think that there are some people in this country in thousands or maybe tens of thousands who are getting spiritual solace from, say, people like Sai Baba or any of these other people who have interpreted the *Vedas* or who have followers all over the country? Do you think these followers are getting some amount of spiritual solace? Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, do you know what Sai Baba is preaching? Do you know? Reporter (2): No. Prabhupāda: Then how you are asking on behalf of Sai Baba? Reporter (2): No, just like that. Just like.... I am just going.... I am very far removed from these... Prabhupāda: No, no, why you are interested.... Twice, thrice you have said Sai Baba. *Reporter (2): No, anybody. Because he is among the better*-known people. I, I am, I have nothing to do with. Prabhupāda: So, but better known... Reporter (2): It could be someone like, say, the Bala Yogeshwara, who also got some kind of following there. *Prabhupāda: That is.... That has spoiled our India's Vedic culture. Everyone has invented some ways, and they have misled the general people, people, followers. That is the misfortune of modern India. Yes. The standard instruction is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. They do not care to know it. They want to know about the greatness of Bala Yogi, Sai Baba, this bābā, that bābā. That is their misfortune. They give up the real instruction, Bhagavad-gītā, which is accepted by the great ācāryas-Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu*-and all over the world, they are not interested to know Bhagavad-gītā; they are interested to know about Sai Baba. Just see misfortune. Reporter (5): But what would you attribute this to? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What would you attribute this to? What is the cause of this? Prabhupāda: Cause of this? One simple cause is they have become unfortunate. They give up the real thing, and they accept the imitation. So that is their misfortune. If there are two shops, everyone knows "Here is real gold, and here is imitation gold." If you go to purchase imitation gold, that is his misfortune. Reporter (5): What is it in your movement which has appealed to the Western world? I believe you have a sizable following in... Prabhupāda: Yes, because we are supplying real gold. We are giving real gold. We are not supplying imitation gold. That is the credit. If you supply imitation thing, it may go for some time, but it will not endure. So many swamis and yogis go there, but just these.... Ask these American boys. They don't care for them. Reporter (5): But even Mahesh Yogi has a considerable following in America and a lot of Western countries. Prabhupāda: No solidified. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Amongst housewives. Hṛdayānanda: No. Now it is going down, and the followers, they have..., they will not follow any regulative principles. They will not surrender. Simply.... They have no actual disciples who are following principles. Devotee: Are we going to compare because of the larger following? Do you compare the relative and the unrelative? This is the... Reporter (5): I didn't meant to compare Swamiji's teachings with that of Mahesh Yogi's, but I... Prabhupāda: No, how many Mahesh Yogi has brought, disciples like this? Practical, come, come, practical point. Have you seen in India Mahesh Yogi's disciples like...? Reporter (5): Well, whenever he comes to Delhi he brings two, three jumbo jets full of disciples. Prabhupāda: This is my answer. Thousands of them are working here on my behalf. Just see their character and behavior. Reporter (4): Swamiji, may I say something? A magician can create many charismas. But God also create charismas. Who will you compare? The magician charismas or the God's charisma? This is the difference. A magician can also sometimes impress upon people that he has godly powers, but are they the real godly powers as against real godly powers? This is the difference. I have been at least thirty times to America, talked to lot of people. They say if you want to go really for attainment of your soul, you go to ISKCON. Prabhupāda: Even Mahesh Yogi says. Yes. Reporter (4): And if you want to attain your bodily strength... Prabhupāda: Yes, actually. One of his secretaries came to us. One of his secretaries, he asked that "I want real knowledge of God." He said, "Then you go to ISKCON." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's true. Reporter (4): And if you want blissful, pleasureful things, go to other, either Mahesh or to Bala Hathayogi. This is what has been.... This is what has been impressed upon by knowledgeable people in America. And at least I can say with authority that I have talked with lot of people in America. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say that you can chant some mantra and go on with your sinful life. But the practical result is that people's lives remain the same. They may simply divert themselves from their suffering temporarily. But in reality their condition of life is the same. They're still in a miserable condition of life, whereas Prabhupāda is actually lifting us out of the well of misery to the atmosphere of blissfulness. Prabhupāda: That Mahesh Yogi advertises in the paper, "TM: You don't require any religion, don't require to follow any principles," and so on, so on. But I have got so many strictures; still, they do not go to him. They come to me. He has no stricture, but I have got so many stricture. And it is the report of the draft department that "Why the young men come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? What is the facility?" So they studied. So they reported, "There is no facility, simply rigidity. Still they go there." Reporter (5): Do you have any plans of propagating your movement in India? Because you have been for too long working in the West, and I believe India is not getting the benefit of your teaching and your guidance. *Prabhupāda: India is so misguided that it will take some time to come. Because what I.... Even if you speak to India, what I shall speak? I'll speak Bhagavad*-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā was already there, still already there. But India's misfortune is they are so neglectful, they don't take care of Bhagavad-gītā. They'll bring, "Why not Sai Baba? Why not this bābā? Why not that bābā?" That is the difficulty. Reporter (5): No, I wanted to ask... Prabhupāda: They have become overintelligent. Not simple intelligent but overintelligent. That is.... They are not overintelligent. That is the facility for them. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. That is in the śāstra and the *Vedas*, in everywhere. But you won't believe it. You'll say, "Why Kṛṣṇa Supreme God? Another.... Here is God. Here is God." Hundreds and thousands of Gods you'll bring. That is the difficulty. Reporter (5): No, do you plan to propagate your message in India? *Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly I plan, but the difficulty is that who is going to accept? The philosophy is already there. Bhagavad*-gītā is already, but who is caring to take it? Even if I speak, I shall speak, "Read Bhagavad-gītā," but who will take it? That is the difficulty. They will bring another competition. Devotee: What probably he's asking is do we have any positive plans... Reporter (5): For spreading the movement in India. Prabhupāda: We have got. We have already planned. Devotee: That has been seen in Māyāpura. That has been...In Bombay there's a very big temple, we are building, with a center. In (indistinct), Vṛndāvana,... Prabhupāda: My point is that what I am speaking, it is not unknown to India, but they are so misfortunate that they don't take it. That is the difficulty. So so unfortunate they have become that they don't take it. What shall I speak in India? The same thing. Reporter (2): So that is all the more reason why your work is needed. *Prabhupāda: No, we are doing. As far as possible, we have got center. The people are so overintelligent, don't take it. "Ah, what Hare Kṛṣṇa? We have heard it. Ah, we have seen Bhagavad*-gītā." That is.... If you become neglectful, that is the greatest offense. So India is offender. It is India's philosophy, what I am preaching others. India doesn't require to be known to be aware. It is.... They already know it, but they won't take it. They have become so unfortunate. That is the difficulty. If you don't take it, then how you'll become rich? Suppose if I give you-"Take this one thousand dollars"-but if you don't take it, then what benefit will be there? India's position is like that. Reporter (6): Will you be opening certain schools in India on gurukula pattern? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are trying, but the difficulty, India, is that they are very, very neglectful. Reporter (6): Is the government discouraging... Prabhupāda: There is no question of government or.... The government is people's men. So if you are, we are ourselves fools and rascals, the government will also be a set of fools and rascals. And if you are intelligent, the government will be intelligent, because now it is democracy. You select some man. So don't blame government. You are government. If you are fools the government are fools. If you are intelligent the government is intelligent. It is up to you to change; then everything will be all right. Reporter (1): Swamiji, excuse me, is there any special significance of keeping this bead hidden from the public? *Prabhupāda: Yes, just to follow Bhagavad*-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā says, man-manā bhava mad bhaktaḥ: "Always think of Me." So we are thinking, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." Reporter (1): No, I mean, you are keeping it wrapped in a piece of cloth. Prabhupāda: That bead. Reporter (1): Why? Prabhupāda: The bead is pure, so just to keep it aloof from the dust.... Just like we keep this drinking water covered. Why? This is common sense. Reporter (1): Just to keep it pure. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pure it is, but still, it is our duty not to treat ordinarily. Reporter (1): Are your disciples supposed to chant the mantra all the time? Prabhupāda: Yes. All my disciple is chanting. Reporter (1): Are they supposed to chant the mantra throughout the day? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter (1): All the time? Prabhupāda: Just like I am talking with you, and as soon as talking stops, I am.... My hand is going: "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā. Reporter (1): Is it possible to talk and also to chant the mantra at the same time? Prabhupāda: Yes. That requires practice. That requires practice. Just like woman is cooking and (s)he is also talking. It does not mean the cooking is going bad. It is practice. Reporter (1): Swamiji, does this chanting of mantra brings purity or following of your four instructions or regulations which you have told, or both? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. It purifies the heart, yes, the core of the heart. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. This is the effect of chanting, because everything we are doing on account of dirty heart, so everything is dirty. So if you purify your heart, then everything becomes clear. Reporter (1): How long does it take to purify ourself? Prabhupāda: It takes.... Just like if the dirty things are very fixed up, it takes little more time. Otherwise it takes little time. Reporter (2): Swamiji, I believe you'll be having certain industries for export also in Māyāpura. May I know if they will be manned by disciples, and if so, do you think that they would be in a much better position to look after these big gośālās and other things than, say, other, people would be? *Prabhupāda: If you follow Bhagavad*-gītā, then everything will be followed very nicely. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. And go-rakṣya, this is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā. So if you follow Bhagavad-gītā, then naturally go-rakṣya will be there. And if you read Bhagavad-gītā for some political reason, then slaughterhouse go on. That's all. Instead of go-rakṣya, go-killing. This is going on. Every politician is reading Bhagavad-gītā, but go-rakṣya... Instead of go-rakṣya, go-hatya. This is going on, no go-rakṣya but go-hatya. This is going on. Who cares for Kṛṣṇa? This is the misfortune of India. Kṛṣṇa spoke in India, in Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa appeared in India, but Indian people are neglecting. Therefore I say it is a misfortune. It is your own thing. You are neglecting it. Reporter (2): So you want to encourage that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I want that.... Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken in India. Every Indian should take Bhagavad-gītā very seriously. Then India's fortune will change. But they have rejected Bhagavad-gītā, and they are making their own imagination as the goal of life. So how they will be happy? If you have your father's property, you squander it and then you beg from others, "Give me some money," then how much unfortunate you are, just see. Your father's property, you squandered it. Then you become a beggar and beg from others, "Give me some money, sir." So how much unfortunate you are, just imagine. Reporter (2): When you visited the Soviet Union, Swamiji, did you find the atmosphere worse than it is in Western countries, say? Are the people... Prabhupāda: Everywhere the people are very good, but the leaders are bad. Reporter (2): Did you meet any of them? No. Prabhupāda: Yes. I talked with one of the best leaders, Professor Kotovsky. He is the professor of Indology. I talked with him. I have studied. The people are generally very good. Reporter (2): But did you hold any meetings or anything? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (2): Were they receptive to what you... Prabhupāda: Yes. I was invited by Professor Kotovsky to talk. On my way to Europe I stayed there. So I have studied the people. They are very good, as our Indian people, innocent masses, they are also like that. But they are being sophisticated by their new philosophy, communism, artificial thing. But they are not happy. They are being forced to accept a philosophy. People are.... I have seen from their face. They look unhappy. Everything dependent on government. You have to accept. You cannot select your food even. Whatever nonsense things the government will supply, you have to accept, even you don't like it. And for us it was a great difficulty. We could not get rice, could not get flour, neither fruit. Only milk is available and flesh, as much as you like. So on the whole, it was artificial and people are not happy. Reporter (1): Swamiji, why do you prohibit this tea or coffee also? Prabhupāda: Because it is sinful. Reporter (1): It is sinful? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why should you eat meat? Reporter (6): What about onions...? Prabhupāda: Yes, onions is also very agitating. Reporter (1): Sir, why are they sinful? Why are they sinful? Prabhupāda: What sinful? Reporter (1): Why is it sinful to take tea or coffee? Prabhupāda: Because you get intoxication. If you are habituated to take tea, as soon as in your time you don't take, you'll become mad. Reporter (1): You mean this dependency is bad... Prabhupāda: Yes, why should we...? Reporter (1): ...or this tea itself is bad? Prabhupāda: If your mind is agitated for something, then you become dependent on that thing. That is the position. Those who are taking tea, they have become so much dependent on tea. Reporter (1): But if I start talking milk I will be equally dependent on milk, sir. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, milk will not. Milk, you take little milk once; that will satisfy. Reporter (5): What he says that if he starts taking milk regularly, he'll become dependent. He'll become... Prabhupāda: So that you are dependent, must eat something. But you must eat something which is favorable for you. Eatable, everything is eatable. The stool is also eatable. That does not mean you, human being, you go to eat stool. That is meant for the pigs, hogs. You are not hogs and pigs. But if you become, if you try to become pigs and hogs, then you can become. No discrimination of food means pigs and hogs. And God will give chance to become a hog next life. Reporter (1): Sir, most of your disciples have their heads shaven. Prabhupāda: But if you admit this, that after this life you have to accept another body.... Do you accept this? Eh? Reporter (1): I do, sir. *Prabhupāda: Then that body offered to you, is it in your hand? Suppose the next life you are offered a pig's body. Can you say, "No, no, I don't want it"? That is the statement of Bhagavad*-gītā. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Reporter (1): But how to give up, sir? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (1): How to give up. Prabhupāda: What is give up? Reporter (1): How to give up this tea and coffee to which we are so much habituated? Prabhupāda: That they have given up. Devotee (2): Join the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Just see the example, how they are.... ask them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you lose your hankering for everything else. Reporter (1): Really? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The higher taste. Prabhupāda: That is the taste of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra ca [SB 11.2.42]. As soon as you advance in devotion, you become detestful to the all material enjoyment. Reporter (2): Swamiji, may I inquire from which class of society people generally come to you in the States. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From which class of society in the United Sates do most of your disciples come? Prabhupāda: You can ask them. I do not know. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All classes. Many educated people as well as people from all different classes, all racial backgrounds. Prabhupāda: No, no, in America who is uneducated? Hṛdayānanda: Yes, all coming from very nice families, the majority, education. Many, many of them coming from very wealthy families. *Prabhupāda: Now, if you should take good family means wealthy family, then America, there is no poor family. There is no question of poverty. So how do you distinguish that he's coming from good family, he's coming from bad family? Poverty is unknown to them. Nobody is uneducated. Then how you distinguish who is bad and who is good? Everyone is good*-unless he voluntarily becomes bad, hippie. Otherwise everyone is coming from very good family, rich family, educated family. Reporter (2): Do you have a large number of American negroes in your movement, Swamiji? Prabhupāda: Not large number, but there are. Reporter (2): Is there any reason why that is so? Prabhupāda: That is.... There is reason. They are not very much cultured. Reporter (5): Do you have women followers also in this movement? Prabhupāda: Yes. America, men and women have got equal rights. Reporter (1): Sir, whom do you find more responsive to your movement, women or men? Prabhupāda: Everyone. Everyone. They are very fortunate. And I am very much indebted to them because they have helped me. Yes. Reporter (5): Helped in what sense? Prabhupāda: Helped in cooperation. Without their cooperation.... Now, these books I am writing surely, but they are pushing on, even facing great danger. They are helping me in my translating work, in typing, in composing, in printing. Have you got that film, how they are doing? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Hari-śauri: Have you got that film? That book film? Yadubara: I don't have the projector here, Prabhupāda. That suitcase is not here. Prabhupāda: So if we invite them to see it, that how they are helping efficiently with latest machine.... Therefore it has been possible. Otherwise while in India with great hardship I could publish three books only. Reporter (1): They are very beautifully printed. Reporter (5): Where did the money come from to print such lavish editions of your books? Prabhupāda: The money comes.... We are selling books daily. Reporter (5): No, but initially you do require a... Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (5): Initially it requires some money to print such a lavish book. Prabhupāda: Initially I took some books from here. They are not so nicely printed, but still, I sold them. Then gradually increased. They paid the money and then.... They made contributions. One of my student, he first, Jayānanda.... He.... No, first paid me.... He, he has first paid me five thousand dollars. Then Brahmānanda paid me five thousand dollars. In this way gradually money came. Reporter (1): Swamiji, you write originally in English or these books are being translated from some other language into English... Prabhupāda: No, translated, but I give my purport. That is.... They like very much. Present the purport in such a way they can understand it. The original verse is there, but they are explained by me. Reporter (1): Give some critical comments and explanations. Prabhupāda: Yes. That they like. Reporter (2): Does that mean, Swamiji, that yours is a cultural and educational movement rather than a personal cult. Hṛdayānanda: A cultural and educational movement rather than a personal cult. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is cultural movement, educational movement. It is not so*-called religious movement. Religious movement is sentiment. Generally religion is taken as a kind of faith, but it is not a kind of faith. In.... I think, in South America that Indian man was asking that "It is the Hindu faith?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, in South Africa. He was asking, "Is this Hindu faith?" "This cult or that cult." *Prabhupāda: So just see. He was Hindu gentleman, belonging to the Arya*-samaj. So three times he said, "Is it Hindu faith?" And what do you mean by Hindu faith? When Kṛṣṇa said, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], is it meant for the Hindus that a child becomes..., a baby becomes a child, a child becomes a boy, a boy becomes a young man, a young man becomes an old man, and the old man dies, changes this body? Is it meant for the Hindus? The Mohammedans do not become old men or young men? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Christians don't become old men? *Prabhupāda: So such fools there are that Bhagavad*-gītā is speaking, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]-"It is meant for the Hindus." Just see. Such fools there are. And Kṛṣṇa said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: [Bg. 3.14] "If you have got enough food grains, then all the living entities are satisfied." Is it meant for the Hindus? So this is going on. "This is Hindu scripture." What do you mean by Hindu scripture? So they are interpreting in their own way. So Kṛṣṇa is not for the Hindus or the Musselmans or Christians. He is God. He is everyone. He is for everyone. And it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-yonīṣu kaunteya mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ: [Bg. 14.4] "In all species of life, as many forms of life are there, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ, I am the seed-giving father of all of them." So where is the question of Hindus? This is going on. Reporter (6): Does it ever happen, Swamiji, that some disciples of yours may disagree with you in spiritual matters? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. *Prabhupāda: Unless he is a fool. (laughter) Unless he's damn fool, they do not. (laughter) If he's sane and sober, open*-hearted, then he will agree. Not only Hindus. We have got so many Mohammedans also. So unless one is open-minded, sane, intelligent, they cannot understand. Therefore I say the Indians are becoming insane. By the influence of so many rascals they are becoming insane. So that has to be rectified. But insanity is prevailing all over the world, but not so much insanity as in India, that they are rejecting their own things. This is the greatest insanity. Why they are rejecting Bhagavad-gītā? What is the reason? Tell me, you. Reporter (2): Because of Hindus suffer from basic economic instability. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: Economic instability. *Prabhupāda: Economic? Then why don't you accept the economic program given by Bhagavad*-gītā? Why don't you accept? Reporter (2): If you would elaborate on that, I would be very much interested. *Prabhupāda: Well, that is.... It is.... It is known to everyone. Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. Anna. Anna means food grains, eatables. You must produce sufficient food grains. Why you are producing tire tube instead of food grains? And just entering your Delhi from Vṛndāvana, a big Goodyear factory, very big factory. You are producing tire tube, then iron, Goodyear and this and that. Where is food grain? And both sides, the field is vacant. Nobody is going to grow food grain. Then why you'll not starve? It is your fault. You are producing tire tube and iron instrument. You are neglecting agriculture. Then why you shall not suffer for want of food grain? And you are pleading, "Indians are starving." Well, why shall not starve if they do not follow Bhagavad*-gītā? They are thinking, "By increasing industry in America..." They have got industry, at the same time food grains also. But you are taking to industry without taking care of growing food grains. *Reporter (8): Swamiji, I would like to know, that I feel that your society, the Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness society, has a very, very stable economy and that it is self*-sufficient in itself. Is that so? Hṛdayānanda: Speak a little louder. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is the Hare Kṛṣṇa society self*-sufficient, does it have a.... He understands that our society has a very stable economy. Is it self-sufficient, our own Hare Kṛṣṇa society? *Prabhupāda: So don't you think that we are self*-sufficient? We are feeding at least ten thousand devotees daily, but we have no fixed income. Reporter (8): They don't have any fixed income. Prabhupāda: No. None of us have any fixed income, but we are traveling all over the world, New York, London, Calcutta. It is just like going from this quarter to that quarter. Our men are moving like that. Immediately coming, one dozen men from Germany, one dozen from London, and immediately going. We are paying so much money to the airplanes, and we have got so many centers. So how it is going on? On Kṛṣṇa's grace. We depend on Kṛṣṇa. Our income, daily collection, is not less than one lakh of rupees, and we are spending everything. Reporter (8): One lakh daily. Prabhupāda: That is minimum. Sometimes we collect five lakhs daily. Reporter (5): What is the way you go about collecting money? *Prabhupāda: That book*-selling. Reporter (8): Only, books are the only source of your... Prabhupāda: That's it. This question was raised in the Parliament, that "Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they are fabulously rich. Where they get their money?" And the Parliament answer was "They get their money by selling literature." Reporter (8): That means the devotees do not contribute to the... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Not the devotees purchase. They publish. Those who are intelligent public, they purchase. Reporter (8): But do the devotees contribute in any way? *Prabhupāda: Yes. They are contributing their life. We don't get any such life*-sacrificing Indians. These educated boys, rich men's son, they have sacrificed everything for me. And where is Indian? Reporter (8): Swamiji, do you have certain farms also in America, gośālā? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only one, many. Reporter (8): What else do you have over there besides gurukula schools and things? Prabhupāda: We produce our own milk. In New Vrindaban we are producing.... You are Nava Bharata Times? You are, any of you, Nava Bharata Times? Is there any representative, Nava...? No. Your representative went to New Vrindaban, and he published in the November 1974, I think. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, '74. Prabhupāda: Yes, they published one big article, Nava Bharata Time, and the heading was, (Hindi). This was the heading. Actually they gave the photograph of our Deity and activities, everything. You can find out November issue of Nava Bharata in 1974. Reporter (2): But you've virtually given up India as a dead loss, Swamiji. Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (2): You've given up India as a dead loss, isn't it, in the sense... Prabhupāda: Dead loss? Dead loss.... But the leaders are dead loss. Misleaders. They have given up their own culture, and they are trying to imitate others. Reporter (8): Swamiji, when there was discussion in Parliament about the fabulous money that the movement has, society has, then who provided the answers? Prabhupāda: The Home Member. Reporter (8): The Minister. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a copy of this in Bombay, the question number and.... It was about two, three years ago. Reporter (8): They must have done intensive research Prabhupāda: The other member, they raised the question. They brought the charges that the Americans are CIA. What is that, CIA or not? What is? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. CIA. *Prabhupāda: The CIA have become Vaiṣṇava and given up meat*-eating and dancing with me, and they have no other means. (laughter) Just see how foolish question it is. The CIA men have come to me for inquiry. This question, rascal questions, are put. Such unfortunate insanity is prevailing in India. (laughter) The American CIA, they have come to me. Just see. Reporter (8): Swamiji, would you print that it is legitimate for the government to say that certain undesirable... Prabhupāda: Don't bring in government now. It is emergency. (laughter) Put ordinary question. Don't bring in government. Reporter (8): Have you been troubled by any undesirable elements? *Prabhupāda: No, no. We are clean. Why shall we be...? But if you want to put us in trouble, you can do. We are preaching. Our signboard is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why do you misunderstand? And we are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. You have got our book. Still if you misunderstand, that is our misfortune. What can I do? Reporter (5): Thank you very much indeed, Swamiji. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to have a look at some of our books? Hari-śauri: We have some refreshments also if you want. (end) *Morning Walk-*-March 26, 1976, Delhi (in car) *Prabhupāda: ...mana, buddhi, ahaṅkāra. And then false identification, ahaṅkāra, then soul. And the soul is so fine. I have given the definition. How they can see, "There is soul"? Dr. Kapoor: But in the ātmā, you see.... You have given a very beautiful description. The smaller the part*-as they call it, potency-more powerful it becomes. So you see, they think that the bigger thing is more powerful, but here science has also proved that greater the potency, the smaller the dose, smaller the size. So similarly, as you describe that what is soul? It's fractional, fractional, fractional, fractional. Prabhupāda: Yes. Fractional. It is smaller than the atom. Dr. Kapoor: Final measure, the smallest fraction of anything, is soul. *Prabhupāda: One ten*-thousandth part of the top of the hair. Dr. Kapoor: Sir, even that has been measured by measuring instrument. I think it is.... You can describe it. But it is smaller part, infinite smallest part of an atom. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it has been measured out. How the measurement is stated? It doesn't.... When the statement is there about the measurement of the soul, it was done. Otherwise how it is described in the śāstra? (break*-walk) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The last few days, as guests have been coming to greet you, practically everyone who you've had a conversation with has brought up this question, What is good and what is bad, what is sinful activity? Prabhupāda: Hm? What? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It seems that people have great difficulty discriminating today between good and bad. Prabhupāda: So what is your answer? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You've answered very nicely that whatever the authority says is good is good, and whatever the supreme authority says is bad is bad. Independently of what our own way of thinking is, we have to ultimately answer to the supreme authority. Even that lady, she gave the example that in society certain things are good, but they've bent the law, that things which were once bad, they are now accepted as good. So you explained that whatever the authority says is good is good. So the only difference I can see is that the goodness and the badness that Kṛṣṇa has defined are eternal. Prabhupāda: Bad is this material world, and good is spiritual world. In the material world the discrimination of good and bad is mental concoction. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mano*-dharma. Prabhupāda: Dvaite bhadrābhadra sakalī samāna. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So pious activity is that activity which brings us to the spiritual world, and impious activity, activity which roots us here? Or are even the pious activities of the material world considered bad? Prabhupāda: Pious activities or impious activities in this material world, they are the same. Yadubara: Does one have a better chance of reaching to the spiritual platform if he is performing pious activities? Prabhupāda: Yes. Chance, not sure. Just like charity is pious activities, but if the charity by chance it is given to a Vaiṣṇava, then it becomes a lift for spiritual. And charity given for opening hospital, it is the same, impious activity. People are inclined to do something pious just like opening a school, opening hospital, and if you go to such person, that "We want to open a temple," they will not give. "Ah, there are many temples." As if there is no school. There are many schools; still, they will open a school and hospital. But if you go for some charity for opening a temple, "Oh, there are so many temples." Yadubara: Like last night everyone was giving money for the hospital program, the meeting there. Prabhupāda: Were there any book sale, our? *Yadubara: Some. I think that lady that you preached to the night before last, she bought a Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: She bought. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Yadubara: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the single elements alone in the body do not have life. The blood does not have life, the air does not have life, and so on. How would you prove that all of them combined together don't have life? How would you prove that? Prabhupāda: No, no. We do not find in the water, in the air, in the fire the five elements, you do not find there is life. So what is this, that life force? They are trying to prove that combination of this, there is life, but actually by analytical study we don't find life. The first example is this breathing. Everyone is under the impression that breathing is life. So when the breathing is stopped, the air is stopped. Just make some artificial way of breathing, bring life. Yadubara: They may say that that is only one aspect. Prabhupāda: Every aspect you say, rascal. You take water, take fire. Where is life? Just like heat, heat in the body. Heat is fire. So everything you take which constitutes this body, analyze separately and find out life, where is life. Yadubara: But they may say that a combination produces. *Prabhupāda: Combine it. Everything is there. You combine and produce life. Combination produces? Then you combine. Why don't you combine and produce life? Simply speak like rascals. Take. The water is there, the air is there, the fire is there*-you combine together. Now you are so much advanced in scientific knowledge. Combine them and produce life. What is their answer? Yadubara: They'll say that they can't do it. Prabhupāda: Then why speak, rascal, that there is life? You cannot do. What you cannot do, why do you speak like a nonsense? Yadubara: They will say nature does it. Prabhupāda: Nature? That means you are rascal. Nature is above you. Then worship nature. Be submissive. You are submissive already. It doesn't matter whether you accept or not; nature is pulling you. Nature is stronger than you. There is no doubt about it. Then why you declare that you are independent? You are not independent. Foolishly declaring independence. As soon as you are dependent, you must have to accept God. You may not know who is God and what is God, but somebody who is controlling you, your activities, He is God. *Cyavana: Prabhupāda, in the early fifties the scientists performed an experiment which substantiates their theory that life comes from matter, and they actually created a one*-celled being. They made one cell which had life in it. It moved like an amoeba. Prabhupāda: Then why do they not do now? What is the wrong now? Cyavana: Well, they've done it. They can do it by creating certain conditions. Prabhupāda: But why do they not do? Cyavana: They use amino acids and water and electricity. Prabhupāda: Bluffing. *Cyavana: But this gave great strength to their theory that life can come from matter because they created a one*-celled amoeba. They say they created it, that life actually came into it. Prabhupāda: They said everything, but where is the proof? Cyavana: Well, the scientists saw it. Prabhupāda: Saw it? Now show us. They saw it at their home. Cyavana: They put the chemicals, and then it moved. It became alive. Prabhupāda: All rascals. Yadubara: In so many years they haven't done anything else. Prabhupāda: Just see. Cyavana: No, that's as far as they got, but it really boosted their theory, at least so that they thought they would be able to create life. Prabhupāda: All rascals. Dayānanda: There's also a scientific argument against that, that there may have been the life conditions or the conditions conducive to life, so therefore life came, but not that that was produced by chemical combination. Just like they're actually opposing that argument, scientific school that opposes the idea that they actually produced the life itself. Cyavana: Some of them said the life was already there in the water to begin with. Prabhupāda: In the water, life there is; *in the air, in.... That is another thing. But life is different from the water. That is our proposal. [break] They are attracted by these varieties of material things, and when time comes he's put into death. Everything is moved from his sight, aside, and he accepts a body of a dog. [break] To accept by compulsion a type of body according to his activities, that he does not.... Now, that big, big minister, Pandit Jawaharlal, he spent so much time and energy for creating this. Now, if after death he has become a dog, then where is the benefit? You cannot say that he has not become a dog. Dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. One has to accept another body, and what kind of body one has to accept, who will say? The.... His work, what he has done, that will take. Cyavana: And when you asked him to join us, he said, "I cannot do it." Prabhupāda: No, no, join or not join.... I mean to say that if I see that somebody has become dog next life, you cannot say not, he has not become a dog. You have no proof. [break] ...create a kingdom that you'll not be allowed to stay there in your kingdom, and by your action you have to accept another body. And what kind of body you are going to accept, you do not know. Therefore they deny next birth. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's just amazing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, how the eternal spirit soul can become so implicated in this material world. Prabhupāda: Implicated by desires. We are desiring always, constantly. So the desire makes your next body. Every living entity in this material world is desiring how to enjoy. What is your question? Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How the eternal spirit soul becomes so completely absorbed that he completely forgets about the future and simply he becomes absorbed in some temporary sense gratification. Prabhupāda: That is material existence. Material existence means to satisfy senses. That is material existence. Don't you see that everyone is planning for some material.... Just that one man is the.... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa was saying that he was eating motorcar. Just see. (laughter) What is the meaning of this? But he is desiring like that, that "I shall be famous man by eating motorcar." Guru dāsa: He's desiring for fame. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone can understand, "What is the use of this fame?" but he is desiring. This is going on. That is the cause of his bondage. This life he's desiring to eat motorcar, next life he is desiring to eat something, enjoy something, varieties of mano*-dharma, mental concoction, and that is his bondage. Kṛṣṇa is so kind; whatever he desires, he is given the facility: "All right, take it." Guru dāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it more natural to love someone else... Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: Is it more natural for someone else to enjoy or for ourselves to enjoy? Prabhupāda: No, it is personal, our. You are desiring something, and you get the opportunity. Guru dāsa: So then to love Kṛṣṇa is unnatural? Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is natural and everything else unnatural. The principle of loving Kṛṣṇa is distributed in so many ways. Instead of loving Kṛṣṇa, loving so many nonsense things, and we are becoming implicated. The principle is love, but instead of loving the right person, you are loving so many things. Hm? Cyavana: Growing wild. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dayānanda: You told me, "What is the use of becoming a paṇḍita?" So the other day I was in one shop, and the man was asking me about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one of the shop owners. So I told him one verse, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. He did not know it, but he called over one of his employees. He was a paṇḍita. He was working in the shop as a salesman. So I was thinking that he has become a paṇḍita. Prabhupāda: Become a salesman. Dayānanda: But he's just working in the shop as a salesman. Prabhupāda: And he has become a servant of a person who does not know Sanskrit. Dayānanda: Yes, he does not know anything, but he has become servant. Guru dāsa: [break] ...about some other paṇḍitas who wanted to get Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura out of the town. So two of his students, one posed as a betel seller and one as a potter. And when the men came to take, kick Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura out of the town, they first stopped to get some betel. And the betel seller was quoting Sanskrit verses, and then the potter was also quoting Sanskrit verses. So they thought, "If the betel seller and the potter of this town are such great paṇḍitas, what must Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura be like?" So they left the town immediately. [break] ...Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the ability in man. Prabhupāda: Hm? Guru dāsa: Kṛṣṇa is the ability in man. Kṛṣṇa is the ability... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is everything. Guru dāsa: Yes. Is it all right to think sometimes when there is some success that it's more due to you than to Kṛṣṇa? Because you've taught us about Kṛṣṇa, you've taught us how to speak, etc. In other words, when there's some success, can we think that it's due to you more than to Kṛṣṇa, or both, or... *Prabhupāda: According to śāstra, both. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. By the grace of Kṛṣṇa one gets guru, and by the grace of guru one gets Kṛṣṇa. If one is sincerely seeking after Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa gives him a guru, and the guru teaches him how to get Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, devotees want to know what your greatest pleasure would be. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What your greatest pleasure would be, how you would want your disciples to... Prabhupāda: You all become full Kṛṣṇa conscious, cent percent Kṛṣṇa conscious. [break] ...that people are suffering for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let them have this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and become happy. That's all. Guru dāsa: People are very more respectful in Delhi now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: We have all respect. Amāninā mānadena. Even who has no respect, we give respect, everyone, not for his material position, but because he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...are also coming here? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Who, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Gargamuni's vans, six vans? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's not scheduled to come. Perhaps later on. He had some program scheduled. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes the question is raised that Lord Caitanya predicted the holy name will be preached in every town and village throughout the world, so to what extent will it be preached? Prabhupāda: That will depend on the preacher. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In other words, will there be preaching centers in every town and village, or will it just be a question of traveling through and preaching to the people and ticking off that we've been there? Prabhupāda: No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think so. Prabhupāda: Traveling is essential. If possible there may be centers. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But our ambition should not be simply to go to every town and village simply so that we can say we went to every town and village. We should actually try to... *Prabhupāda: No, why village? Everywhere you go, town, village, everywhere. Abaddha*-karuṇā-sindhu, nitāi katiyā mohan, ghare ghare, kare dāna, like that. Abaddha-karuṇā-sindhu, nitāi katiyā mohan, ghare ghare durlabha prema, kare dāna. Brahmā durlabha prema kare dāna,(?)like that. So ghare ghare. Not only village to village but door to door. Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Preaching engagement is unlimited. Prabhupāda: In the material world the poor man thinks, "Oh, this gentleman has got such big, big house. If I could have one." Eh? And the spiritual world, without desiring there are so many big, big house we have got. *Guru dāsa: Everyone can ride in the airplane in the spiritual world because everything is a pleasure trip for Kṛṣṇa. You've written in a purport in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that in the Vaikuṇṭha planets everyone can ride in the airplanes. Prabhupāda: Yes, there is. [break] They say that when they're combined, there will be life, but the way of analysis we suggest is not complete? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The fact remains that even if they have a completely combined body, say a dead body, they still can't bring life back to it. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even if there is a body that's already combined-say someone has just died*-they still can't bring life back. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall go this way or that way? Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda, into the temple room. *Prabhupāda: (break*-room) So what is the news? Your wife and son? Dhanañjaya: They are in Vṛndāvana, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The mukuṭa business is doing very well. Prabhupāda: Producing nice mukuṭa? Dhanañjaya: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So you return me my money. I gave twenty thousand? Hm? Dhanañjaya: That will be returned. (end) *Morning Walk Excerpt-*-April 2, 1976, Våndävana Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vṛndāvana morning walk, Vṛndāvana, April 2, 1976. Śrīla Prabhupāda is walking in the Vṛndāvana Municipal Park this morning. He drove here by car in his Mercedes. Now he's taking walk here. Prabhupāda: Car? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, car is locked, and the driver of the other car is watching it. Prabhupāda: [break] ...small park, they cannot maintain it. *Tripurāri: ...reading in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, the cleansing of the Guṇḍicā temple. And towards the end, one Bengali Vaiṣṇava brāhmaṇa washed the feet of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and He became a little angry, outwardly angry, and unhappy within. And in one purport you mention that the spiritual master should not be offered obeisances or have his feet washed before the Deity. But the impression of most of the devotees has been that in the presence of the spiritual master one can stop worshiping the Deity and offer obeisances to the spiritual master. So I was wondering which is correct. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Dilemma. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I mean, it's obvious if it was detrimental to our devotional service, then Prabhupāda would correct it. Prabhupāda: They cannot also keep clean even Central Park. Then what to speak of Vṛndāvana? Things are becoming very, very... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Here in Vṛndāvana the people also pay taxes? Prabhupāda: Yes, without tax.... [break] Tripurāri: ...in the day sometimes, and now they are giving prasādam to the devotees free, without charge. [break] ...stay? *Prabhupāda: They stay at the Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tripurāri: Those are the originals? Prabhupāda: (aside:) Jaya. Jaya. *Ādi*-keśava: [break] ...the devotees are asking one question. They're wanting to know how it was that even though there is so much distance between, let's say, Govardhana and Rādhā-kuṇḍa and Vṛndāvana, Nanda-grāma, Varṣāṇā, how it was that still Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā could go and meet, and the cowherd boys could go and meet at these various places. They could go such great distances. Prabhupāda: That is distance for you, not for them. Just like a small ant. It goes from here to here. It is a great, three hundred miles, but for you, one step. Why do you study Kṛṣṇa like you? Why do you think that Kṛṣṇa was like you? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. Kṛṣṇa can do anything, so His associates. *Pañca*-draviḍa: In the Upadeśāmṛta, in the translation you refer to this, the līlā-aṣṭa... *Tripurāri: Aṣṭakāla*-līlā. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Aṣṭakāla-līlā. What is that exactly? Eightfold līlā or some...? Prabhupāda: Eightfold, but..., eight grahas. Gurudāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? So the timings are.... At new Govinda temple the... Prabhupāda: New Govinda temple? *Gurudāsa: New Govinda and old Govinda, both. Starting at 7:30 is the dhūpa-ārati, and then, nine o'clock, is another ārati, then the rāja*-bhoga ārati is at 11:30. Gopīnātha's temple is staggered, a little after 7:30, and the Rādhā-ramaṇa temple is 8:30. So they stagger like that. So the next ārati will be 7:30. Prabhupāda: But in the morning, before... Gurudāsa: Five o'clock. They start at five. The maṅgala-āratis start at five. (end) *Room Conversation-*-April 4, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: All of them are South African? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, actually, he's from South Africa and he's from South Africa. These two devotees are going down for the first time, and Jagat*-guru was preaching there once before. Prabhupāda: So they will get visa? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't require visa except for Jagat*-guru. He's British, he's Canadian. He's South African boy. He's South African. Prabhupāda: Oh, they don't require visa. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only Jagat*-guru dāsa, American. Prabhupāda: Oh. So he'll get visa? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: So all five, you are going? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, we have studied this South Africa. They like our movement. They are purchasing books. That is very good sign. Is it not? They are purchasing? Who are purchasing books? Educated circle? Devotee (1): Colleges. Prabhupāda: College. That is.... College, universities, that is educated.... So I was surprised when, after my meeting, they purchased books, because these South African white men, they do not like very much Indians. Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's a fact. Prabhupāda: But still, they like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is very good sign. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even the Indians are attracted to our Indian culture. Prabhupāda: They lost their culture. *Jagat*-guru: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we were thinking that this is 1976, and in July there is Ratha-yātrā. So by next year, '77, we hope to be able to have Ratha-yātrā in Durban. There may be a quarter of a million, half a million Indian people. One cart and three deities on one cart. Prabhupāda: And whether government will allow? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think so. They already have permission. *Jagat*-guru: They can give permission, will do probably. And also we want to establish also, apart from the temple, one bus program which will reach all the towns and villages there in South Africa. Prabhupāda: Very good. *Jagat*-guru: And also we will go to Rhodesia and probably Malawi and maybe Mozambique, which are countries in our area. And also I spoke to the boys from Mauritius, and... Prabhupāda: Mauritius, we have got now devotee. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have kept his address? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Two devotees. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One is that gentleman, Mr. Narayan. He's an engineer with the city electrical department, and the other is a full*-time devotee. I have his address, Mr. Narayan's address. Prabhupāda: So they are still here? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's anxious to go back. He's going to London until August; then he's going back to Mauritius with his family. *Jagat*-guru: We will invite him to come to our Durban festival. And also I've suggested that they also arrange something big, festival, because there are 600,000 Indians there, and that some of our men can go to the island and give them association. Prabhupāda: So they'll give visa? Me? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For you? Oh, yes. I think we have to make a chest x*-ray again and take several shots for you, (laughter) no problem. Prabhupāda: So when you are going back? Tomorrow? *Jagat*-guru: Yes. Prabhupāda: When? Early in the morning? *Devotee: Yes. We're making the arrangement tomorrow to go. We're getting tickets and some books. Then Jagat*-guru will follow a few days later. Prabhupāda: Make vigorous propaganda all over the world. From South Africa, Australia, there is direct service. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Direct service. Prabhupāda: Perth. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Perth. Prabhupāda: From Perth to... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sydney. Prabhupāda: No, South Africa...? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How many hours? It's about nine hours. Prabhupāda: Not much. Nearer than India. From India to Australia takes so many hours. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Five hours it was, from Bombay to Mauritius. Prabhupāda: Five hours, again nine hours. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And then it was about three hours to South Africa from Mauritius. Prabhupāda: No, from Mauritius they can go directly to Australia. No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Direct to? Prabhupāda: Australia. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. If the flight is broken up like that, it's a little easier, from South Africa to Mauritius to Perth, or even to Bombay. It's about the same distance from Bombay to Mauritius as to Australia from Mauritius. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda is thinking about going from India to South Africa to Australia to make the flight easier. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think it makes the flight easier, because you're going like a triangle, this way and then this way. Let us arrange some nice program first, so that when you come again we'll have something nice to offer you. Prabhupāda: I think in Mauritius there is good field. They adopted culture. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The problem in Mauritius has been that either they don't know how to collect, or they say it's a very poor country and they're not able to get funds to start any kind of a dynamic program. Prabhupāda: They cannot chant even? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Chanting they do. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. We don't want money. So give them directly. *Jagat*-guru: Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda.... (too faint) Prabhupāda: South African mission, very good. Devotee: At this present moment, Prabhupāda, we have a really unique situation, the best of all. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: A unique situation in South Africa, because there are many Europeans that are being drafted into the Army, but they will not allow the Indians to be drafted. They don't want them to go into the military forces because they're afraid they're too intelligent. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of our brahmacārīs, they've been drafted into the army. We've lost several devotees like that, because it's very hard for them to maintain their Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the army. Prabhupāda: Conscription. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, conscription. But the Indians are not drafted. There's no army for them. So we're hoping that in Durban, where you first preached at the City Hall, the young people there, if we can get them sufficiently enthused, that they'll also join, and then we'll be able to have a very big movement amongst Indian community as well. We won't lose any devotees like that from the draft. Prabhupāda: I think our students who are going to be ministers, they are excused from draft. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, even in South Africa the ministers.... No excuse. It's a very strict situation. If you don't go into the army, you go to jail. Even if you're a minister, they don't care. There is no religious grounds for objecting. But only the Europeans are in the army, no one else. They're afraid that if the Indians had guns, they might use them against the Europeans. Devotee: So we're going to try and make more devotees this year, more Indian devotees especially. We've never really tried before. *Jagat*-guru: Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you have seen on our altar, Gaura-Nitāi? We have large Gaura-Nitāi and two small, three actually, three small sets of Gaura-Nitāi Deities. The ones on the far left, just under Lord Nityānanda's feet, They are going also to South Africa. They came originally from East Africa. I mentioned it when I first came to Māyāpura(?). So we will be taking them. We have a very nice siṁhāsana built for Them, finished tomorrow, and we'll be displaying Them at all our programs, preaching programs. Prabhupāda: Do the needful. That's all. Devotees: (offer obeisances) Jaya. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're very enthusiastic to preach. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is life. One who is enthusiastic to preach, he is living. Others are dead. Just see how beautiful. Who is the rascal scientist can manufacture that by combination of chemicals? Hari-śauri: They can imitate the fragrance. (laughs) They can imitate like monkeys. Prabhupāda: If you see only to the flowers, you become invigorated. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you see only? Prabhupāda: Invigorated, get a refreshment. Hari-śauri: If you just see a flower. Yes, just to walk through a nice garden, it's very pacifying. Prabhupāda: How many different colors and set up, craftsmanship. There is no brain behind. Hari-śauri: Chance. Prabhupāda: It is not chance. In this particular tree, this flower will grow. Color will not change. (pause) So somebody is preparing? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Who? (end) *Morning Walk-*-April 5, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava ācāra. [break] ...how nice. This kind of building cannot be constructed. It will require crores of money, yes. Indian: [break] ...nobody. Only (indistinct) would come here, they would stay here for a few hours and then go back. Prabhupāda: The tank is not with water. *Indian: Yes, they used to have water at both sides of the inside. Now, probably, they are short of water or they have switched on to agriculture. So many they used to have flowers and tulasī and all that. Now they have come to agriculture*-wheat, barley. Prabhupāda: Money. Such a nice tank is vacant. Indian: I remember my young days. People, young boys, they used to come swim here. Prabhupāda: Oh. Just see. So you may pay them, say, 150, 200 rupees each. Then it will be all maintained, and that much money you can spend. Indian: And if it's nicely maintained, possibility you can get some return out of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. That way we shall get fruits and flowers. *Jayādvaita: I was seeing yesterday in Rādhā*-Dāmodara Mandira that nothing is nicely maintained except for your rooms. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple (Hindi). Indian: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Oh. (Hindi) Indian: Oldest place in Vṛndāvana. I am not even aspirant of religion or psychology, but people are very much interested in Hinduism there. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guru dāsa: [break] ...should have a nice path all the way around. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) Lokanātha: We should buy some for you, Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: No, we can buy the whole thing. (Hindi) I'll talk with him. (Hindi*-Prabhupāda bargaining with chili seller in long exchange) You have got money? Jayatīrtha(?): Yes. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) So give him two rupees, eight annas. (Hindi) Guru dāsa: Bargain. Prabhupāda: My father used to do that. He'd go to a vegetable vendor. He has got a big basket, and he'll say, "What do you want for all, the whole basket." So he is ready because he'll sit down so long, so at very cheap rate he'll give it. And it was not required in the family so much. My mother became very angry, that "You are bringing so many, so much vegetable, it is being spoiled." But he would purchase like that. If you give him in those days fifty rupees to go to the market, he will spend all the money and bring at home. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) We are prepared to spend. [break] ...from saintly person. Vrajavāsī: Haribol! Prabhupāda: Haribol. Jaya! Hare Kṛṣṇa. Vrajavāsī: Jaya Rādhārāṇī ki! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Vrajavāsī: Haribol! Prabhupāda: Haribol. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Vrajavāsī: Haribol. Haribol. Haribol. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Oh, when our festival? *Guru dāsa: Sixth, seventh, and eighth. Tomorrow, next day, and the Rāma*-navamī. (Hindi-break) *Pañca*-draviḍa: In the Bhāgavatam it says that if a person cannot offer a straw mat like that to a saintly person when he visits, he doesn't live in a house... Prabhupāda: But if he hasn't got extra straw, how can he do? *Pañca*-draviḍa: He may offer obeisances. If he can't do that, simply cry. Prabhupāda: Straw? Straw is offered. Oh, not taken care of. *Pañca*-draviḍa: You said if he couldn't, if he cannot do that, he does not live in a house, but he lives in a tree full of snakes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So he has offered seat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? In the *Bhāgavatam* it says that although Lord Viṣṇu is the controller of everything, He is particularly in charge with the mode of goodness, and He is associated with maintenance. So is it that in order to maintain something in this material world also, there has to be the touch of the mode of goodness? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Evaṁ prasanna*-manaso? *Prabhupāda: Evaṁ prasanna*-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogataḥ [SB 1.2.20]. Then he becomes prasanna-manasaḥ, happy mood. Then he can cultivate devotional service. Otherwise not possible. Ceta etair anāviddhaṁ sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. Unless one is situated in sattva-guṇa, there is no possibility of peacefulness. (Hindi) (end) *Meeting with Bankers-*-April 6, 1976, Våndävana (Hindi) Prabhupāda: "You pay." Indian: Return with interest. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, so he was the father of the Yakṣas, this Kuvera. So Dhruva Mahārāja was a great devotee. You have heard the name of Dhruva Mahārāja. He was insulted by his stepmother. When he was young, very young child, so his father had two wives. So the junior wife was very pet to the husband, and the senior wife was not so much pet. But both of them had two sons. So the junior wife's son was sitting on the lap, a small child. So Dhruva Mahārāja was the son of the senior wife. As a child, he was also trying to sit down on the lap of the father. The other brother, he does not know stepbrother is brother. But the junior wife, she said, "My dear son, you cannot sit down on the lap of your father because you are not born in my womb. And that boy, the other boy, he is sitting on the lap of your father because he is born in my womb." So it was sarcastic remark, but Dhruva Mahārāja, although he was a child, four or five years old, he took it very seriously. A kṣatri..., kṣatriya... (Hindi) He became very angry. So he immediately left the place and went to his own mother, that "Stepmother has insulted me like this." He began to cry, and the mother said, "My dear son, what can I do? Your father does not treat me even as a maidservant, so I cannot take any step." "So how I can take revenge on it?" She said, "If Kṛṣṇa likes, then you can take revenge. Otherwise there is no possibility." "Where is Kṛṣṇa? I want to see Him." Child.... (Hindi) She said, "I have heard that Kṛṣṇa is in the forest. Big, big saintly persons go there and meet Him, so far I know, my dear son." "So I'll go there." So this four-year, five-years-old boy went to the forest, and he saw Kṛṣṇa within, Viṣṇu, within six months by his austerity, by meditating and observing austerity, living on water, on folio (foliage?), air, in this way, six months, he got the opportunity of seeing Viṣṇu directly. And there is a big story. Later on he was enthroned on the father's seat. He became very big king. But his younger brother, the same brother, was killed by the Yakṣas in the fight. So he wanted to take revenge on the Yakṣas, and he was killing the Yakṣas like anything. Then the Yakṣas' father, Kuvera, he came to him with other, recommendation of other demigods, that "You are a Vaiṣṇava. It is not good for you that you are killing so many Yakṣas indiscriminately. Now, whatever is done, you stop it." Then this Kuvera was very much pleased because his descendants were being killed and the fight is stopped, so he was very pleased. This is our point to understand. The Kuvera was very pleased, and he offered Dhruva Mahārāja that "You have become so kind. You could kill all my descendants, but you have stopped, so I am very much pleased upon you that you saved my family. So I want to give you some benediction. Whatever benediction you want, you can take from me." Now this benediction.... He is Kuvera. He is the treasurer of the demigods, unlimited wealth. And he offered him that "Whatever you like, you can take." But what Dhruva Mahārāja did? Dhruva Mahārāja said that "Kuverajī, I am very much obliged to you that you are offering me benediction and you are the treasurer of the demigods. I can take money from you as much as I like. But my prayer to you*-that I don't require any money. Kindly give me your blessings that I'll remain a devotee of Kṛṣṇa." Devotees: Jaya. Haribol. Prabhupāda: So I have got now the Punjab National Bank, so you are ready to give me money, but I request you that you bless me that I may remain a servant of Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Jaya! Indian: Should I represent Kuvera? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Indian (1): Now Mahārājajī has told you the story about the Kuvera of the old days. I will tell you the story of the Kuveras of the today. That is us. In fact, it was in a paper. There was a cartoon. A bank manager, means today's Kuvera, was sitting in an office, and he received a call, such and such big Dalmiya or Birla, "We want two lakhs of rupees just now." He said, "Yes, come along. Here is our Swamiji. He'll pay you two lakhs." Then there was another call. There was some industrialist or a small-scale industrialist man. He said, "I want to start an industry. Could I get a lakh of rupees as a loan from you?" He said, "Yes, yes. Please do come along and we'll make some arrangements." Then he also. And ultimately the third picture in the cartoon, that the manager-that is today's Kuvera*-he goes out of the bank. He is standing on the gate, and he says to that caukidāra, (Hindi punchline-laughter). It is today's Kuvera is not in any position to give anything. He also wants your blessings, you see, in fact. Prabhupāda: Very good. Indian (1): So if about the bankers, if you permit me, I'll give you another interesting story. There was a man who was very ill in America and he had a heart trouble. In fact he had no heart, I would say. So, you know, they can replace the hearts nowadays. He went to a hospital, and the doctor offered him two or three hearts, "Which one would you like? One is of the general, the other is of a big businessman, and the third is of a banker. What would you like?" So he thought, "Let me have the heart of a..." Prabhupāda: Banker. Indian (1): "...banker." (laughter) So the doctor said, "Why do you want to have the heart of a banker?" He thought, "Because I'm sure it has never been used." (laughter) Prabhupāda: I'll recite another very nice story...[break] *Indian (2): (Hindi*-about opening a branch of the bank) Indian (3): (Hindi) Indian (1): There seem to be little misunderstanding, not that we are short of any space or any accommodation or anything for which we can't open, but there's a little technical thing that bank license does not permit, and we are immediately taking or mending the license, and as soon as it is, we'll start. We have no problem of this. Guru dāsa: Prabhupāda, did you want to tell another story? Indian (1): But I had only two. I won't be able to... Prabhupāda: (laughter) The story is that one poor man was informed by his friend that "Money draws money." That's a fact. If you have got money, you can draw money. So he went to the bank, and the cashier was counting huge amount of money, and he threw his coin on the cash..., (laughs) and he was waiting: "When the whole money will come to me?" Then the cashier saw this man is standing: "What is the...? Why you are standing?" "Sir, I heard that money draws money, so I had one coin. I have dropped with your money. I am waiting when it will come to me." So he said, "No, no. The fact is that, money draws.... Now my money has drawn your money." (laughter) So.... (Hindi) Indian (1): Perhaps it is in the Bible that "Those who have shall be given more. Those who have not shall be taken of what they have already." I don't whether it's right or not, but more money draws the lesser money. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) Indian (1): The new license will be.... (Hindi to end *Morning Walk-*-April 7, 1976, Våndävana Devotee: Morning walk, April 7, 1976, Vṛndāvana, Raṅga Gardens. (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: ...dozen carts. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It looks like it came from... Prabhupāda: [break] ...cannot say, Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is such competition. (Hindi with others) I like this garden very nice. (Hindi) It is maintained very nicely. We can get flowers. (Hindi) Water is supply there? (Hindi) Indian man: There are two wells. (Hindi) The river is very near. Just after that garden, Yamunā. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: These people, they like Vṛndāvana. (Hindi) What is our telephone number? Akṣayānanda: 179. Devotees: 8. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vṛndāvana 178. Indian man: 178. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: So they are not tres.... (Hindi) Whatever you think, as you like, we can ex.... [break] (Hindi) [break] *Tripurāri: I can remember from Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, one devotee of Lord Rāmacandra was always chanting the name of Rāma, but Lord Caitanya convinced him to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: (laughs) There is competition like that. One will say "Hare Rāma." Another will say "No, Hare Kṛṣṇa." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He was very obstinate. Hari-śauri: Or that man in Delhi. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: That man in Delhi thought we had something against Lord Rāmacandra. Prabhupāda: There are many versions like that. Somebody will say, "Your Rāmacandra may be very important person, but when Rādhārāṇī goes to Kṛṣṇa, Lord Rāmacandra becomes His (Her) guard with arrows..." (laughter) When Rādhārāṇī goes to Kṛṣṇa, and Rāmacandra has to serve Rādhārāṇī with arrows and bows. (pause) This is gorur.(?) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is that six*-pointed star significance? Prabhupāda: Cakra. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh. *Hari-śauri: What is the symbol on the right*-hand side, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I think śaṅkha. That is the conchshell. Akṣayānanda: [break] ...thread from the Deity, the old sacred thread, and they tie it on their wrist. They tie it here. Prabhupāda: Who? Akṣayānanda: Some of the devotees have started to do that now. Prabhupāda: Why? Akṣayānanda: I don't know. It's just like wearing beads. The sacred thread from the Deity, after replacing, they take the old one and they wear it here. Prabhupāda: Who has told them? Akṣayānanda: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Then why... Akṣayānanda: Well, I told one boy to stop it, and because I couldn't quote any authority, he keeps wearing... Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no author.... Where is his authority? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: This nonsense should be stopped. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I thought it was wrong. That's why I mentioned it. I wanted to make sure. Prabhupāda: Stop this. Akṣayānanda: Okay. Sure. Hari-śauri: I think their idea is that because it's prasādam, it's from the Deity, that they're able to wear it. Prabhupāda: That is another concoction. The sacred thread is not used like that, in the hand. Akṣayānanda: I thought it was wrong. It seems like some kind of fashion or something, concocted fashion. *Hari-śauri: [break] ...small black beads that the devotees are wearing from Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. They have a string of beads made of clay from Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Are they...? *Prabhupāda: Rādhā*-kuṇḍa clay is not bad. Hari-śauri: So it's all right to wear them? Prabhupāda: Not very constantly. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you're worried that one thing will lead to the next. Actually all we have to do is follow your example. Akṣayānanda: Yes, we don't have to add anything. What can we add? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the use of it? Akṣayānanda: What can we add? Prabhupāda: There is a proverb in Bengali that the crows, they eat stool. But when the crow is very young, he eats more stool. [break] ...tendency always, how to become hippie, as soon as there is little opportunity. Akṣayānanda: Yes, it's something we have to guard against very carefully. Prabhupāda: Don't allow them. Don't allow all these. Akṣayānanda: Even in India people say like that, "Oh, you are hippies?" Prabhupāda: As soon as you become hippie, immediately your all prestige will go. Akṣayānanda: Finished, yes. Prabhupāda: Very carefully. Hari-śauri: The thing is, a lot of the devotees, they're not very much conscious that they're being watched by the, very carefully by the public. Prabhupāda: Bird of paradise? No. Hari-śauri: No, the bird of paradise is different. Prabhupāda: Different. (end) *Morning Walk-*-April 8, 1976, Mäyäpur Madhudviṣa: ...gave one flower to the prime minister of Australia. Prabhupāda: Mm. Madhudviṣa: He gave her a donation. Prabhupāda: Mm. Akṣayānanda: How much did he give? Madhudviṣa: I don't know how much he gave, but he gave a donation. Akṣayānanda: Did he get a book? Madhudviṣa: Yes, she gave him our magazine. Devotee (1): (indistinct) Madhudviṣa: There was no security. Prabhupāda: Why? Madhudviṣa: There was no security around him. He just was standing there on the sidewalk out in front of one hotel after this luncheon. Prabhupāda: Mm. Madhudviṣa: And she just walked up to him and "Oh, this is a flower for you," pinned it on his lapel. Prabhupāda: Mm. So he has no personal guard? Madhudviṣa: He had some guard, but it was not very strict security, there was no... It's not like in America, where the president is very..., his life is very jeopardized all the time. (pause) Prabhupāda: It is not their fault. The Western civilization is like that. Now you have to make a thorough change. The persons from the ecclesiastical order, they are also so polluted, they are sanctioning homosex, abortion. What can be done for the common man? Madhudviṣa: I was reading in the paper the other day, how the Catholic church has drastically declined in the last ten years. Prabhupāda: They must decline. Madhudviṣa: They are losing one billion dollars a year in donations because they cannot... Prabhupāda: They have to starve, not a single paisa donation. By law should be prohibited. No donation should be (indistinct). Pañcadraviḍa: They used to be very strong. Everybody had to give ten percent of their wages. Prabhupāda: Oh. Madhudviṣa: We can see just..., in our society that we have bought so many Catholic properties... Prabhupāda: Hm. Madhudviṣa: ...already. For our temples. In Toronto, I think, we bought a Catholic church, and Montreal and Australia also, that was Catholic property. They are selling all their property off because they cannot afford to maintain. Pañcadraviḍa: Still in South America the people are Catholic and pious... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) we wanted to purchase a convent... Madhudviṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: How dilapidated. Madhudviṣa: How envious they were. We wanted to purchase the convent, and they said they would sell us only if they could tear down the church. They wouldn't sell it to us unless they could tear down the church. *Passers*-by: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Madhudviṣa: It would have been a big defeat if they had sold us that church and we moved in. Devotee (1): (indistinct) ...United States, they have taken eight million Catholics in Philadelphia. Just before the time of our Rathayātrā I think... *Pañcadraviḍa: When they took Rādhā*-Dāmodara down to Mexico, all the Catholics thought it was Virgin Mary and Jesus, and they all came to offer their obeisances. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Which way I shall go? This way? Devotee (2): This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] *Lokanātha: Last time there was a big crowd to hear you, Prabhupāda*-the Christians. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lokanātha: And you mentioned they were clapping for a long, long time after hearing you speak. Prabhupāda: Not long, long time, but... Madhudviṣa, you remember that Catholic... *Madhudviṣa: Yes, they asked you about St. Francis, about him chanting to the dogs and the trees and the birds. And you said, "That is actually God*-realization. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu." Prabhupāda: And when they asked about Christ, and "He's our guru." Madhudviṣa: You started your main lecture off there, "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name." And then you went on to explain about the holy name. Prabhupāda: Hm, (indistinct) are here. Why is it? Some wood. [break] ...grow foodgrains, simple living. Devotee (1): The house is there, under the trees.(?) Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside:) You have got this card. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Western countries they would call this primitive. *Prabhupāda: They do not know what is civilization, that is there. The difficulty is they have no education about human civilization. Bahir*-artha-māninā. They are simply captivated by the external energy, bodily conception of life. They do not know what is the aim of life. This is Western civilization. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. This is not Western, this is the demonic civilization. They do not know what is the aim of life. Our..., the material atmosphere, they're not happy, they're failing always, missing the real point. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The people that live in the cities think that the farmers work so hard. Prabhupāda: And these rascals rise early in the morning and start their car to go to the office, five hours coming and going, and eight hours working there... Lokanātha: Again in the evening they have to drive back. [break] Pañcadraviḍa: ...I saw that these big men, they were taking so many pep pills during the day to do their work, and in the evening they had to take tranquilizers to go to sleep. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen so, so many advertisements. One has to take at least five to six types of. Pañcadraviḍa: No peace of mind. *Madhudviṣa: In this way the Kali*-yuga will progress, and they'll eat less and less food and take more pills, and they will think it is advancement. Prabhupāda: Mm. Yes. *Madhudviṣa: Housewives think like that already. They take some pills, and they become very slim and they don't have to eat so much. They just smoke cigarettes and drink coffee and take pills. And they're saving money, they think. They don't have to buy so much food, and they're able to remain slim and trim. So in Kali*-yuga, as the food supply runs out, so people won't notice. *Lokanātha: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam says they will be starving. Prabhupāda: Mm? *Lokanātha: As Kali*-yuga advances, they're mentioning one time, there will be durbhikṣā, means not even bhikṣā will be given to sādhus. Prabhupāda: Yes, not even bhikṣā will be available. I don't think bhikṣā is available in Western countries, eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Pañcadraviḍa: Bhikṣā? Meaning begging for food? No, they will arrest you. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Prabhupāda: Arrest. Pañcadraviḍa: Yes, begging is against the law. [break] Madhudviṣa: ...alms is very elevated. In Western countries, it is a crime. It's written, "Begging alms." That's one crime that they charge the devotees on sometimes. Prabhupāda: Electricity is coming? Lokanātha: Yes, these poles are meant for that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I doubt, though, if these people can afford. Prabhupāda: The government can. [break] Pañcadraviḍa: ...go to beg rice or something, like we were doing for a food program, all the people slam the door in your face. [break] Pañcadraviḍa: ...went to America, what was your idea of what would be your program when you got there? Prabhupāda: This idea: I shall speak to don't eat meat, and they'll immediately kick me out. (laughter) That was my program. And I was going to say that "Don't eat meat. No illicit sex," and immediately they will kick me out. "All right." I never thought that you would accept it. That is the idea of my poetry. That is sung, no? You have got that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And I was asking Kṛṣṇa, "I do not know why You have brought me here. As soon as I will say these things, they will kick me out. What is Your program, I do not know." (chuckles) Akṣayānanda: Everybody knows in their heart that actually these things are wrong. Lokanātha: You are so expert. For one year you did not mention those rules and regulations, I heard. Prabhupāda: No, I simply said, "Come and join and chant." *Lokanātha: And when they developed higher taste, then you said, "Now no more meat*-eating." [break] Prabhupāda: ...simply man looks after the animals, that he's strong and happy, they'll get food grains, the cooperation, and both of them happy. But they're not looking to that. They are trying to sell the grains and get more money, and purchase wine and enjoy. And when the animal will be unable to work, sell him to the slaughterhouse and get money. And for these sinful activities, they are suffering. Hari-śauri: Their idea is just to exploit. *Prabhupāda: Hah, yes. Everyone is trying to get more, and nature's order is that you take only to maintain your body and soul together. That's all. If you take more, then you are thief, you'll be punished by the laws of nature. This is going on. Laws of nature are so fine that by material activities you'll never be satisfied, and at the time of death, he'll lament that "I could not satisfy my desires. Let me take..." "All right, take another body. Satisfy." This is nature's punishment. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. Simple things. We desire, and nature will give you another body. māyā*-yantrārūḍhāni. He'll give you, "Ride on this car, you wanted, on this body." And this... This is creation of māyā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe... [Bg. 18.61]. Kṛṣṇa is there, orders māyā, "He wants to enjoy life. Give him this body." "Come on, here is a hog's body, eat nicely, stool. Come on." He did not like to eat prasādam. He wanted something rubbish. "All right, come here. Take this stool." These things are going automatically. The same way, as you infect some disease, immediately the disease is there. You haven't got to manufacture diseases. Because you have infected yourself with the disease germ, "Take this disease." Therefore it is warned, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11], "Don't desire anything except Kṛṣṇa's service." Then you are immune. Otherwise you have to take birth. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they take the Absolute Truth void, so they have no good desires, again they come to material desires. Lokanātha: They want to be desireless. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Madhudviṣa: If the Māyāvādīs don't believe in the difference between the soul and the Supersoul, then how can they... What is their explanation of reincarnation? Prabhupāda: They say that this is not incarnation, it is māyā. Just like the sky is covered in a pot, and as soon as the pot breaks, the sky mixes with the big sky. That's all. That is their theory. Madhudviṣa: So therefore they say God is covered. Prabhupāda: Not God. You are covered. Pañcadraviḍa: But you are God, they say. Prabhupāda: So you are God, but you are covered by this body. So as soon as the body is finished, you mix with. Just like you take one pot and you take water. The water is there, but if you break this pot, the water comes and mixes with. Pañcadraviḍa: Then what is their reason for not becoming the biggest rascal? Why not become the biggest rascal? The pot's going to break anyway. What difference does it make? Why not become a big rascal and enjoy? Madhudviṣa: Because the Māyāvādīs, they also perform some austerity and tapasya. Prabhupāda: Just to break the pot. That is their (indistinct) Madhudviṣa: But what is the breaking of the pot? Lokanātha: The pot doesn't refer to the body but the illusion. They want to get rid of not the body but the illusion. Prabhupāda: No, illusion in this sense, that I am covered by the pot, it will break or I shall break, and when it is broken then there is no more pot. I become one with the sky. Madhudviṣa: So why should you endeavor for it? It's going to happen anyway. Prabhupāda: To break it as soon as possible. (laughter) Pañcadraviḍa: That doesn't make any sense. "Crackpot philosophy." Madhudviṣa: If there's no individuality, I can't understand how can there be any desire for... *Prabhupāda: No, there is individuality, but these people do not understand it, because... In the Bhagavad*-gītā, acchedyam. It is not that part is taken. The accedya. Because spirit cannot be cut into pieces, and while it is in piece, either you take it in part or something else, that is eternal. It is not that by the māyā we have become piece. Yes. That is not māyā. It is piece. All right, sanātana, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ [Bg. 15.7], eternally that piece. Lokanātha: They did not take that to mean the constitutional position of the living entity. Prabhupāda: Yes, they do not know. Therefore they are less intelligent. They are individual, but artificially they are thinking, "I shall become one." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the karmīs may argue that to become desireless is against the natural order. Because we see that right from the beginning of our life we're desiring so many things. Prabhupāda: Desireless. When he will desire less, you convince. They're always desiring. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Then where is desireless? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But we're saying anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy anāvṛtam [Brs. 1.1.11]. *Prabhupāda: Anya, anya means anyathā. You are servant, you should always desire how to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is your natural. And if you don't want to serve, that is anyathā. Anyābhilāṣa. That is anyābhilāṣa. Anya means other, abhilāṣa means desire. So everyone has got desire, but that desire should be natural, according to position. But if you desire something else, nonsense, then you suffer. That... Caitanya Mahāprabhu said jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. You are eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, so you desire only how to serve Him. Why you are desiring otherwise? They will suffer. We are desiring, "I shall become God," "I shall become one with God," "I shall become this, I shall become..." So many hundreds and thousands. So that you have to stop. Because you are servant, you should desire how to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is your natural... Eh? Just like in your country the women, they are thinking of equal rights. Eh? And how you can equal rights? You have to become pregnant. So you become pregnant and take care of the child; that is your duty. In India still, you'll find they are happy. And now they are, "No, we shall be equal with the men." And how you'll stop your pregnancy? And that they do not think. So they're thinking that "We shall not be pregnant, and if we become pregnant we shall kill, and we shall have equal rights with the men." This is going on. Madhudviṣa: They say they may become pregnant and have children, but the men should take care of the children, equally. Prabhupāda: Why? Why you should take? You are meant for taking... The child does not go to the father for being taken care. It goes to the mother. Even animals. There are so many chicken, hens, they go after the mother. Hari-śauri: They get milk from the mother, not from the father. Prabhupāda: Yes. How to stop it? Lokanātha: How could father feed even the child? *Prabhupāda: Just see, in all there are so many husbandless girls, and the children have not gone with the husbands, to the man. They are after the mother. How you'll have equal rights? They cannot. At this your heart will cry, "Oh, I have left my children, I am unhappy." That is... Just like our Hari-śauri's grandmother's advice to his mother to kill him. He said. And she refused. This is natural inclination. How... Artificially they are thinking like that, violating nature's law. Therefore they must suffer. As soon as you break ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. These rascals, on account of being misled by misconception of life, ahaṅkāra, false ahaṅkāra, kartāham, I can do everything. Any little pinch of nature's law, if you break, you'll suffer. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot escape. But still they're thinking, "We're independent." That is ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā, by false prestige, by false identification. He is (indistinct) and he's thinking so many nonsense. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. Everything will be explained in Bhagavad-gītā. So try to explain. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order, yāre dekha, tāre kaha, 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128].' Bas, finished, "You become a guru." The trouble(?) is there. You haven't got to manufacture your ideas. Just like I'm quoting from Kṛṣṇa's preaching. Lokanātha: They take objection when we preach. They say, "Have you seen God or Kṛṣṇa?" We haven't seen God, how could we speak about God? Sometimes they take objection. Prabhupāda: Very good. You have not seen your grandfather, why do you take his will? To inherit the money. You have not seen your grandfather. You rascal, you are very much anxious to take his money, according to his will. What is the answer? You have not seen your grandfather, so why you take his will? Eh? What is his answer? Rascal while taking money: "I will take my grandfather's will." Just see. You have to learn how to capture the rascals. [break] Jayadvaita: ...living here for nine years but he doesn't know who God is. Prabhupāda: This is direction? Jayadvaita: Yes. *Passer*-by: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya, jaya. This is the difference: he is living here nine years, he does not. And here, cultivator, he knows how to offer obeisances. Where he is living? Jayadvaita: I'm not sure exactly. I met him on Gopīnath Bazaar. He's living with some gentleman. He said that he came to Vṛndāvana nine years ago and he met this gentleman and took up studying with him. And he's reading all Vedic books, Atharva Veda, Yajur Veda, like that, but he doesn't know... Prabhupāda: What is God. Madhudviṣa: Has he seen our books? Prabhupāda: How he is wasting his time. Jayadvaita: Yes. Lokanātha: Vedeṣu durlābhaṁ. *Prabhupāda: Adurlabham ātma*-bhaktau. If he would have approached a devotee, he'd have known this long ago. That man must be Māyāvādī, with whom he is associating. Pañcadraviḍa: They cannot give anything. *Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī*-bhāṣya sunile haya sarva-nāśa [Cc. Madhya 6.169], finished-his spiritual progress is finished if he associates with a Māyāvādī. *Madhudviṣa: It says in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, even if we look upon the face of a pāṣaṇḍī, we should jump in the river with all our clothes on to become immediately purified, what to speak of giving any aural reception to them. But then again we see that Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu listened, you know, attentively for so many hours to Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya and also Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī. How is it can we understand...? *Prabhupāda: Just to see how the animal is jumping. (to passers*-by:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya, jaya. (chuckles) Just like a fish is given freedom, even if he's caught up by the trap. It is like that. Madhudviṣa: So Lord Caitanya had him on the line all the time. Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya was waiting, "Let the rascal go on speaking. How long he can speak?" (laughs) Hari-śauri: He just waited till he dried up. Prabhupāda: Jaya. He's foolish. He knows that he has got some limited stock; it will be finished very soon, so "Let him finish, then I shall capture." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's policy. Madhudviṣa: But should we take that example or...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Madhudviṣa: We can also listen to the Māyāvādīs and then defeat them like that? Prabhupāda: If you are so qualified like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Madhudviṣa: (laughs) Otherwise we should... Prabhupāda: Otherwise you will be captured. Madhudviṣa: Otherwise we shouldn't listen. Prabhupāda: No. Jayādvaita: In America that's called giving someone enough rope to hang himself. Prabhupāda: Mm. Pañcadraviḍa: In South India, when we were down there, we had to do that. We listened to them first and then took their money. Madhudviṣa: But we also should defeat them. Pañcadraviḍa: Taking their money is defeating them. Lokanātha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the position of vrajavāsīs, those who are living in Vṛndāvana now? What happens to them next life? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply by living, if they do not commit any sinful, they'll go back to home. Simply by living. Without committing any sinful activities. Always remember Kṛṣṇa, this is Kṛṣṇa's land, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto. That will deliver them. Madhudviṣa: They don't need a spiritual master? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual master is always needed. Chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava*-sevā nistāra pāyeche kebā. Without abiding by the orders of spiritual master and serving him, nobody can be. Otherwise rascal. He has accepted one rascal spiritual master, and he cannot understand what is God, nine years, because he did not accept spiritual master. Hari-śauri: So all these local vrajavāsīs, they all accept... Prabhupāda: No, vrajavāsīs, they are... Generally, naturally, they are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise how is this illiterate farmer, he is offering? This is natural. Pañcadraviḍa: But he has no spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: He has a spiritual master? Prabhupāda: No, no, he has a spiritual master, yes. And even without spiritual master they have already elevated to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pañcadraviḍa: So they will go back home? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, because spiritual master is within, caitya*-guru. Lokanātha: You said one time Kṛṣṇa is there. *Prabhupāda: Mm. Kṛṣṇa*-guru-kṛpā. (end) *Morning Walk-*-April 9, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is one very nice cause. The cause is, the Western people, they have no attachment for wife. Is it not a fact? *Pṛthu*-putra: Yes. Prabhupāda: They do not care for the wife. *Pṛthu*-putra: They do not care for family attachment in general. Akṣayānanda: That vairāgya is due to frustration. Prabhupāda: Whatever the cause... Akṣayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: The vairāgya is there. That is... Akṣayānanda: Then you came and gave the missing link. You gave the Kṛṣṇa consciousness itself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vairāgya means that there must be another engagement. Then life is successful, with another spiritual engagement. Akṣayānanda: That you have supplied. Prabhupāda: That I have studied. Akṣayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: You must have known that before you went to the West. *Prabhupāda: No, it was Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Kṛṣṇa wanted to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Western countries, so He gave me the chance to take the credit, that's all. It is Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. But He liked that one of His devotee may take the credit. That's all. Nimitta*-mātraṁ bhava savyasācin. Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna that "I have already killed them. They are not returning, either you fight or not fight, but you can take the credit." So it was arrangement of Kṛṣṇa that Western countries should now have this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And He wanted to give the credit to His poor servant. That's all. Kṛṣṇa likes that. He does everything, but He gives credit to His (chuckling) poor servant. That is my..., vairāgya. The whole process is how to achieve vairāgya. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu vairāgyam... [SB 1.2.7]. *Pṛthu*-putra: Jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam. *Prabhupāda: ...jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam. That was automatic. And the bhakti*-yoga means vairāgya-yoga. Vairāgya-yogaṁ nija-bhak.... Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. So anyway, you have got the right thing. Now make it perfect. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. With great vow and endeavor, kīrtana should go on. Then it is perfect. There is no difficulty. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam [Bg. 10.10]. The kīrtana is bhajana. So if you are engaged, satatam, in kīrtana, then you are safe. Māyā's father will not be able to touch. In India as soon as you say, "You give up your family life," immediately he becomes morose. The family attachment, especially the wife's attachment, is very, very strong. And śāstra says if one can give up this attachment of wife, then he can conquer Kṛṣṇa. It is said. He can conquer Kṛṣṇa. Simply.... Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a ditch here. *Devotee (1): There's a place to walk, though, on the left*-hand side. Akṣayānanda: [break] ...from his fallible soldiers. Prabhupāda: Hm? Akṣayānanda: Fallible soldiers. Prabhupāda: Fallible soldier? Yes. Akṣayānanda: Sometimes I say to young boys, "You are seeking protection from your parents in your childhood, and then, when you grow old or when you grow older, they will want protection from you, because they will become old and feeble. So where is the protection? There is actually no protection." And everyone can easily understand that. Prabhupāda: Protection is ultimately Kṛṣṇa. Akṣayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is all false thought that "He is giving me protection. He is giving me..." Akṣayānanda: Yes. And the same person who is giving me protection, later he will ask me for protection, and then I will ask somebody else... *Prabhupāda: No, no, even when the father-mother is supposed to give protection, that is also not right conclusion. Otherwise there are so many fathers and mothers who is giving protection to his children. The father-mother, when the child is sick, the father-mother gives all*-one who has got means-best medicine, best medical treatment, but the child dies. Where is the protection? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Even that is... Prabhupāda: It is not possible. Akṣayānanda: So there's actually no protection in any case. Prabhupāda: Somebody was.... Some bird was killed here? Akṣayānanda: [break] Sometimes we see a big house and at least two or three generations are all living together, same two or three families, his mother, his... Prabhupāda: That is joint family, yes. Akṣayānanda: Yes, joint families. And because of that, the attachment is very strong, it appears. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? After the Battle of Kurukṣetra there were many men killed. How were all the young people and the women protected after so many millions of men were killed? Prabhupāda: What do you mean by protection? Devotee (2): Well, I mean like Arjuna was arguing that... Prabhupāda: That was also.... That was condemned. Akṣayānanda: Yes, that argument was not accepted. Prabhupāda: That argument was not accepted by Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): But I mean, then how... Prabhupāda: He proved that "You are a rascal. One who puts this argument, he's a rascal." Akṣayānanda: That was just an excuse to avoid fighting. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa clearly chastised him that "You are talking like a fool." Eh? Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā*-vādān: [Bg. 2.11] "Talking like a very learned man, but you are a fool. No learned man speaks like that." Why they have kept this nice road within this forest? What is the idea? Hari-śauri: There's some village on the other side? Akṣayānanda: I don't know. *Prabhupāda: No, for village the government is not going to keep such nice road. This government department, forest department.... The government policy is to develop these places for industry in future. This industry is the cause of falldown of the human society*-industry. So the reaction is.... The industry, two things required-four things required: land, labor, capital, and organization. So now the industry is going on, and the capitalists and labor, there is fight. The laborers, they are finding out that "We are working. Why the capitalists will take the profit?" This is communism. Is it not? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So the Communists, they are thinking, "By changing the hand, things will improve." But they do not know that very industry is the cause of falldown. They're simply trying to change the hand. The principle should go on, industry, only the proposal is that the capitalists should give up and the workers should take it. Devotee (2): Which way is India headed towards? The capitalists or the Communists? *Prabhupāda: India has no, had no such ideas. They are borrowing ideas. India's idea is self-realization. Live very simple life-brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas, they are living simple life, becoming very learned scholar, pure character, advanced in spiritual life*-one class, ideal. And kṣatriyas, they are supposed to be the king. They distribute the land on nominal taxation, and the vaiśyas utilize the land for cultivation and cow-keeping, and the śūdras, they are engaged as weaver, blacksmith, goldsmith, mean other necessities of life. In this way the whole society is simplified, and the central point is how to become advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness by cooperation. This is India's civilization. There is no question of industry. Ugra-karma. It has been condemned in the Bhagavad-gītā as ugra-karma, laboring very hard for livelihood. This industry means engage the poor worker class to work very hard, and there is huge profit, and some directors of the capitalists, they take it. And they have one dozen motorcars, palatial building, no work, simply wine and woman, that's all. This is going on. And the others, they are seeing: "There is no classification, neither real brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya. So he is enjoying like that. He has got so many cars. He has got such a nice apartment. Why not me?" There is struggle. This is actual picture. Our Vedic advice is that make life very simple. You must have some means of livelihood. Keep your body and soul together. So according to quality, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13], there must be division and then simple life. The real aim is tam abhyarcya, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Everyone is.... Brāhmaṇa is guiding, kṣatriya is ruling, and vaiśya is producing food, and śūdra, they have no brain; they are helping. In this way the society is very peaceful, and everyone is advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is India's civilization. Now, due to this association of the rākṣasas... Even up to Mohammedan time this civilization was being continued. Mohammedan did not touch the Indian culture. Sometimes by, what is called, fanaticism, there was fight. Not like this. The Arjuna.... Aurangzeb began this. Otherwise, from, what is called, the first emperor? Akbar. Akbar, Jahanghri, then Shajahan, there was no trouble. They did not touch. Even there was some marriage connection. They want to remain as kṣatriya king, that's all. The other things were not interfered. So instead of a Hindu kṣatriya, the Musselman kṣatriya. People were satisfied: "A kṣatriya... We have to work. Somebody must be king." So in this way the Indian people accepted the Britishers. "All right, you remain king. Don't interfere." But later on, to exploit the whole country, they began to plan. Akṣayānanda: Industry. Prabhupāda: Yes. The industry, railway, and this way, that way, European way of life. And the result was they were kicked out. And India is now trying to perfect... Akṣayānanda: The same thing. Prabhupāda: Same thing. Yes. Akṣayānanda: Tragedy. Prabhupāda: Tragedy, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Last year, when Governor Reddy was here, you were talking with him how "Let there simply be the government's position to check and see that everyone is following their particular religion." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is government's position. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how would, for example, the government.... In a perfect society, how would the government check to see that the brāhmaṇas are actually practicing, and how would...? Jayādvaita: So to be recognized as brāhmaṇas... Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayādvaita: To be recognized, our men will have to be, as you were saying yesterday, perfect gentlemen. Prabhupāda: Yes, brāhmaṇa means perfect gentleman. Brāhmaṇa means perfect gentleman. A rogue, thief, cannot become brāhmaṇa. (laughs) Brāhmaṇa is perfect gentleman. Who feels for others, that is gentleman. Who does not feel for others, for his sense gratification, he is a rogue. A brāhmaṇa, a gentleman, must feel that "Why there should be animal killing?" That is gentleman. If you are killed, you cry and you are.... Hundreds and thousands of animals you are killing on the plea that they have no soul? Lowest class, narādhama. They have been described as narādhama. So narādhama civilization, how he can be happy? There must be frustration. Devotee (1): Yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, four or five people stopped me while I was in a bus during the day, and they would stop me and look at me with tilaka and etcetera, and say, "Why have you given up your Western life and taken to this life?" (Prabhupāda laughs) They were amazed. And then I had a *Bhāgavatam*, and I'd show them your picture, and I'd show them the *Bhāgavatam* and say, "Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59], a higher taste." And then they would appreciate. They would.... They were so impressed by your *Bhāgavatam*. They looked at your picture, and they'd go, "Yes, yes, you are right." Prabhupāda: Yes, in my Preface I have written that: "What is the necessity of the human society?" This is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is required. It is a mistake to understand that we are trying to push on Hindu culture. Where is the Hindu culture? To become a gentleman is Hindu culture? It is for everyone. Jayādvaita: They think that their paraphernalia makes them gentlemen. If they have a big car and a nice house then they are gentleman. Prabhupāda: And he may be great rogue, that "Simply dress yourself nicely; you become gentleman." Devotee (1): Usually materially opulent people are puffed up and mean. They're not... Prabhupāda: Gentleman means that if you go to a gentleman's store, "Beware of the dog. Beware of the revolver." This is your culture. And when you go to the airport everyone is searched out, pocket. So who is gentleman? Is that gentleman? There is no gentleman in the world. All rogues and thieves, cheaters, bluffers. Now we are creating gentlemen. Otherwise there is no gentlemen. Here is the proof. If we are gentleman, why we are being checked in the airport? Hm? This is the proof. There is no gentlemen. Akṣayānanda: Because they're not expecting any gentlemen. Prabhupāda: That means there is no.... In other words, there is no gentlemen. Akṣayānanda: Yes. They're only expecting rogues. Prabhupāda: Sometimes.... In most cases they do not check me. "This is gentleman." And there is all..., no gentlemen. And this is the test, how to test a gentleman, that one who is not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa.... Or one who is surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is gentleman. Kṛṣṇa says that So anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is not gentleman. Bas. That is the test. He is not a gentleman. Jayādvaita: Just like that man yesterday, that farmer, was so polite. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is gentleman. He is Kṛṣṇa conscious. This can be used very nice dako(?) If you stack it nicely, you can use as dako(?). It is very good... Jayādvaita: [break] Cintāmaṇi gate. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Vaiṣṇavas in general in Vṛndāvana, are they lamenting for the physical upkeep? Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Are the Vaiṣṇavas in general lamenting for the physical upkeep of Vṛndāvana, or are they indifferent? Prabhupāda: No, it is the business of the government. Vaiṣṇava can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra anywhere. He doesn't require any nice park. Ahaituky apratihatā. For becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, for a serious person, there is no obstacle. Any condition he can do it. [break] ...why there is sannyāsī? In the Vedic civilization, ultimately sannyāsa. Why? That one must give up the intimate relationship with wife. This is the ultimate position. Brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tamo*-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgam. *Prabhupāda: That is recommended everywhere. Illicit or legal.... Mahāprabhu has said, asat eka strī-saṅgī: "Anyone who is attached to woman, he is asat." Bas. This is the whole process, how to become detached from the attraction of woman, dhīra. [break] Give up the connection with woman is recommended. So in our society it will be a good test. We are mixed up with men and women. If you in spite of this allurement, if you do not become attracted by woman, then you should know you are paramahaṁsa. Yes. You are worshipable. And this Bhāgavata-dharma is meant for the paramahaṁsas. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām [SB 1.1.2]. It is especially. Dharmaḥ projjhita. The other different types of regulated system, to become very religious man or to become very expert money-hunter or accumulation of money, dharma, artha, and enjoying sense enjoyment*-the whole world is appreciating these men, who is a religious man, who is very much able to satisfy his senses, dozens of cars and three dozen women, naked dance. They are taking this. Dharma artha kāma. And somebody is trying mokṣa, being baffled or dissatisfied: "These things will not.... I shall become one with." So dharma artha kāma mokṣa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90]. So Bhāgavata says, "These are all kicked out." Paramo nirmatsarāṇām [SB 1.1.2]. For the paramahaṁsas. So anyone who is freed from all these allurement, he is paramahaṁsa. And this paramahaṁsa-saṁhitā, it is called, Bhāgavata.... Paramahaṁsa-saṁhitā. Bhāṣyaṁ brahma-sūtrāṇām **. *Pṛthu*-putra: We also should be free from the extension of this, which is profit, adoration, and distinction. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Pṛthu*-putra: We also should be free from profit, adoration and distinction, which are just extensions of these desires. Prabhupāda: A Vaiṣṇava does not require any, what is adoration or distinction. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a line of preaching in our society that subtle manifestation of sex attraction is adoration, profit, and distinction. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is.... Mahāprabhu says, tṛṇād api sunīcena. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's another path going this way if you'd like to walk some more, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: [break] ...that garden. Jayādvaita: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where so many men come there. Jayādvaita: And it is just near our temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. Very calm and quiet. Hari-śauri: Very pleasant. Prabhupāda: But we shall go this way? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's okay. The car is just back here when you want to go back. Devotee (1): On one tape in America you said that the Westerners have created many, many parks, but because they are so busy trying to work hard for money they cannot take advantage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Therefore we will come early in the morning and take advantage. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our ājagara*-vṛtti. Ājagara-vṛtti means we haven't got to work for anything. Everything should be done by others, and we shall take possession of it. (laughter) Just like the Americans. They have earned so much money, and I have gone there and taking possession. I am not more clever than the Americans? (laughs) "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and give money. I'll take to India." What do you think? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You once gave the example of a mouse. The mouse digs a hole, and then the snake comes along and takes the house away from the mouse. Prabhupāda: Yes. And eats him. The mouse makes very comfortable home by digging, and the snake comes, he enters without any labor, and the mouse is there and he eats it. Jayādvaita: Free food and free home. *Prabhupāda: Yes, ājagara*-vṛtti. What is that? Python. Ājagara-vṛtti and madhukāra-vṛtti. For your necessities of life either you take ājagara-vṛtti or madhukāra-vṛtti. Madhukāra means the fly, honeybee, bees. They take little from this flower, little from this flower, and they stock it, and somebody comes and takes it away. Don't stock. Therefore we have to follow this, that whatever money is coming, spend it for publication or for constructing temple. No account in the bank. Finish. Jayādvaita: [break] ...is that no one can be contaminated by it. Prabhupāda: Yes, that blessing for them. Jayādvaita: As soon as I have five dollars, I'm thinking that "Now I have five dollars. I can..." Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayādvaita: I'm thinking, "Now I have five dollars. I can purchase something. What shall I buy?" Prabhupāda: Why? If you don't require anything, why should you purchase? Don't create artificial demand. If you require to purchase something, then purchase. That is material civilization. "I don't require it; still I want it." Atyāhāra. Finish. We should not possess anything which is not absolutely necessary. We are keeping these cars for preaching facility, not for sense gratification. We are keeping this dictaphone for preaching facility. Otherwise why it should be required? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is the whole mentality, then. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: : The whole mentality is changed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like the Kurukṣetra fight. Kṛṣṇa wanted; therefore he fought. Personally he did not want. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Morning Walk-*-April 10, 1976, Våndävana Akṣayānanda: One boy I recommended for second initiation, but during the fire ceremony he was away on traveling saṅkīrtana for Vṛndāvana. Will he be able to take initiation from you and have the ceremony later, before you go? Prabhupāda: He can be given. Akṣayānanda: And he can offer in the fire later on. Very nice. He's a very good boy. Yaśodānandana: Prabhupāda, there has been discussion amongst many of the members of the press and the Sanskrit editors regarding the actual place of Nṛsiṁha's pastimes. So I told them that on the occasion of our travel to South India we visited this place Ahobilam, and the paṇḍitas, they have scriptural reference from the Brahmāṇḍa Purāṇa and the Nṛsiṁha Purāṇa that the place is actually mentioned there, and it has been recognized by Rāmānujācārya and many of the great Ālwār saints. And yourself have already told me twice personally that this was the actual place where it happened. And on top of the mountain there, there is the pillar, iron pillar, which is the symbol of the spot where Lord Nṛsiṁha killed Hiraṇyakaśipu. So for the benefit of all of these devotees, they were just requesting your actual confirmation. Prabhupāda: Confirmation or no confirmation, Nṛsiṁhadeva is our worshipable Deity, that's all. Why you are bothering where He killed Hiraṇyakaśipu? You worship Him, that's all. Yaśodānandana: They just wanted... Jayādvaita: The question came up because they have some pictures, photographs from these places, and we wanted to know if they were suitable for publishing or not. Prabhupāda: So why you are bothering with that? Let it be accepted or not accepted. Worship Him. Akṣayānanda: Not that important. Prabhupāda: That is the important thing. [break] A man is diseased. He has gone to the physician. So whether is the first duty to investigate wherefrom the disease came or to cure him? Which is important? Yaśodānandana: To cure. Prabhupāda: Similarly, Nṛsiṁhadeva might have done this or here or there, but He is our worshipable Deity, that's all. Why bother with unnecessary things? We know Nṛsiṁha is everywhere. Aṇḍāntara stha paramāṇu cayān... That is the conclusion. Jayādvaita: We were just afraid that if we published a picture that was not correct, then you might become like Nṛsiṁhadeva. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayādvaita: We were afraid that if we were to publish a picture that is not correct... Prabhupāda: So when it is disputed, why should you publish that picture? It is controversial. You should not print. Yaśodānandana: The controversy is only amongst the... Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. As soon as there is little controversy.... I explained yesterday. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For dhātun?(?) Prabhupāda: No, the crow, the crow and the tāla fruit. Somebody said this; *somebody said this. Then what is that important thing? Crow and a tāla. You know the kāka*-tālīya-nyāya? Yaśodānandana: I never heard that story. Prabhupāda: There was a tree, tāla tree, and.... tāla tree. So one crow was there, and the tāla fruit fell down. Two paṇḍitas, they began, "Whether the tāla fruit fell down.... Because the crow sat down on it, therefore fell down." The other said, "No, the tāla fruit was falling down, and the crow could not sit on it." And they began to fight: "No, this." He said, "No this, no this," go on. Akṣayānanda: Or maybe the crow tried to eat it. Yaśodānandana: I think in this case it was just a question that they never knew actually what was the actual position. But if Your Divine Grace does not wish anything to be published regarding that place, then we will not do. Prabhupāda: As soon as there is some controversy, avoid it. That's all. Tāla fruit and crow. You worship Nṛsiṁhadeva. Ito nṛsiṁhaḥ parato, yato yato yāmi tato nṛsiṁhaḥ. Nṛsiṁhadeva is everywhere. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bahir nṛsiṁho hṛdaye... Prabhupāda: Why Nṛsiṁha should be confined: "He was here"? He is everywhere. And as He is everywhere, He is here also. That's all. Finish the business. And you are without...? (shoes?) Yaśodānandana: I missed it. I could not get my cappalas (sandals) off in time. They were lost. But that is okay. Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not okay. It is not at all okay. Then you go and sit down. Don't.... That is very risky. Then let us go to the road. [break] Maybe. Jayādvaita: [break] ...that just as a capitalist sees money everywhere and a lusty person sees sex life everywhere, devotee sees Kṛṣṇa everywhere, even in a pillar. *Nalinī*-kānta: I've been reading a lot in the different books about envy. You say that people kill cows only out of envy. I was wondering if you could give a definition of what envy is. I don't understand why they would kill animals out of envy. Prabhupāda: Envy means the cow has got right to live. He does not allow the cow to live. That is envy. You cannot understand this? Suppose you are walking. You have got right to walk, I have got, and if I kill you, you cannot walk. That is envious. Everyone has got right to live. Just like the camel. God has given their food. They are accustomed to eat these thorny twigs. So Kṛṣṇa has given that. Let them eat and live. Why should you interfere with his living condition? [break] Do not interfere with others' right. Why should you? [break] ...think we shall take the car in Bombay? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I think it's a good idea because there is no suitable place to store it here. Prabhupāda: No, we can make a suitable place. What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It may take some time. I don't.... Actually I haven't been to Bombay myself. I haven't seen the land at Juhu. Is there a suitable place for...? Prabhupāda: There is many suitable place. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The reason was that because whenever you come back to India, you always come back to Bombay first of all, so as soon as you come back to India, you'll have facility to use your car. Otherwise we should make arrangements for another car for Bombay also? Prabhupāda: No. Another Mercedes? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (laughter) Yes. Hari-śauri: A Rolls Royce next time. Prabhupāda: (laughing) No. [break] ...land you can utilize. Where is.... They say overpopulation. Where is man? Overpopulation in the city. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. Kṛṣṇa has His own plan. Even overpopulation Kṛṣṇa provides. Why you are worried, "overpopulation"? You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why you are worried about overpopulation? Yaśodānandana: "We are less worried now with the family planning program." Prabhupāda: Hm? Yaśodānandana: "With the family planning program the worry is decreasing." Prabhupāda: Decreasing? Yaśodānandana: They will argue like that. Prabhupāda: Oh. Family planning, why family planning? Family planning is already there that don't marry. Why don't you accept this? Don't have sex. This is real family planning. Jayādvaita: "That is horrible." Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayādvaita: "It is horrible." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Might as well kill ourselves." *Prabhupāda: Not horrible. It is horrible for a particular person. Otherwise.... [break] Karma*-bandhana. What is this? Lokanātha: They are flowers. These are the flowers. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In little pots. Prabhupāda: Fruits also? Devotee (1): They're just some kind of little string bean. Akṣayānanda: Like a bean. Devotee (1): Birds and camels eat the bean. Jayādvaita: Our ISKCON population rate is less. Yaśodānandana: However, in some of our centers it tends to increase quite a bit. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you made the statement the other morning that if someone kills a young child, it is condemned. So if someone is killing the young child within the womb, that also should be condemned. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Simply that they have no clear idea what consciousness is and what life is. Therefore all these things are going on. *Prabhupāda: All rascals. How they are risking their own life, karma*-bandhana. Just like a thief. He is thinking "I am doing very nice business. Without any..., I am getting so much money." That is risky. Hari-śauri: : Perhaps we cut across this way? This is a dead end here. Prabhupāda: No, we shall come back. *Jayādvaita: You gave that other example in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that Nṛsiṁhadeva let Hiraṇyakaśipu slip from His hands for a little while just to play with him. *Nalinī*-kānta: The Vedic civilization is centered around villages, not cities? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Nalinī*-kānta: If we want to make the world Kṛṣṇa conscious... Prabhupāda: Vedic civilization is in the forest. Go to the forest. Hari-śauri: Renounce. Prabhupāda: : Neither in the city nor in the village. Go to the forest. Lokanātha: But there were cities like Dvārakā. Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but the ideal is vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta [SB 7.5.5]. Go to the forest and depend on Kṛṣṇa and live there. And that is perfection. Vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta [SB 7.5.5]. Go to the forest and remain, depending on Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Lokanātha: There are no forests left. Hari-śauri: The whole material world's a forest. Prabhupāda: There are so many forests in America, full of forests still. Africa, so many forests, big, big forests. *Akṣayānanda: [break] ...Kali*-yuga we cannot do that due to our conditioning. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari śauri: : Fifth Canto describes the whole material world is a forest. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Of enjoyment. Lokanātha: Forest of enjoyment. [break] Prabhupāda: They go in the village for begging little food, that's all. Just like you can live in this forest. And what you will eat? Two cāpāṭi. So you can go and beg. That's all. Whole day's business finished. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Lokanātha: It's too simple to understand. Prabhupāda: Hm? Lokanātha: It's so simple, we cannot realize how simple it is. Akṣayānanda: But if we tried to do that, wouldn't it be sort of artificial? Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Yes. (end) *Morning Walk-*-April 12, 1976, Bombay *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Purchasing flower means they are being cheated. That's all. All third*-grade flowers are supplied. Dr. Patel: But this and that plot, these two plots are actually meant by you for growing flowers. I don't know what they're doing. They are growing ornamental plants but not flowering plants. Guru dāsa: So that piece of land is not exactly on the parikrama but off the parikrama. It's not so far from our property. You know the big park near Singhania's place? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: Then one more park. Prabhupāda: Park? Singhania's building is there. I have seen. Park, I don't know. Guru dāsa: It's an open spot, not exactly park. It's near Fogel Ashram. Prabhupāda: Hm. So how did you like? Guru dāsa: Well, the piece of land is nice. Prabhupāda: Nice. Guru dāsa: It has trees on it, some. It's a little bit more than an acre, and the buildings are not very big. Prabhupāda: They can be repaired. Guru dāsa: Yes. It would be very easy to add on or construct or do whatever you want. And it's, I'd say about five to seven minutes walking. Prabhupāda: Not far away. Guru dāsa: Not far. Prabhupāda: You can have a garage here? So we can see? Saurabha: Yes, you can walk on the side. Prabhupāda: [break] ...Prahlāda Mahārāja. Dr. Patel: Yesterday I studied Sixth Chapter of Prahlāda Mahārāja, and... Prabhupāda: Oh. Prahlāda Mahārāja's... *Dr. Patel: From Śrīmad*-Bhāgavata. This morning only I read about this thing. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...becomes humble. God is for the humble and meek. In Bible also it is stated. And because everyone is trying to become God, how he becomes humble? Dr. Patel: I think Christ taught humility by his own action. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Even Vaiṣṇava... Dr. Patel: All Vaiṣṇava.... I mean Vaiṣṇava ācāryas suffered extremely than that. *Prabhupāda: Kavirāja Gosvāmī, who has written this immortal Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, he is presenting himself, purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha: [Cc. Ādi 5.205] "I am lower than the worms in the stool." Just see. He is not hypocrite. He is feeling like that. "Oh, what is my value?" Purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha, jagāi mādhāi haite muñi se pāpiṣṭha. Jagāi-Mādhāi was a... Dr. Patel: Those two boys Caitanya... *Prabhupāda: Yes. So he says, "I am more sinful than Jagāi*-Mādhāi." Mora nāma yei laya tāra puṇya kṣaya: "If anyone remembers me, then whatever pious activities he has done, it is all finished." Dr. Patel: These Vaiṣṇava ācāryas don't allow their feet to be touched because they feel that he should... Prabhupāda: So why they do not utilize it proper? Dr. Patel: This is a private thing. They want to be (indistinct) My daughter (indistinct) boy who is studying.... He has his M.D. of London (indistinct) Prabhupāda: It is settled up. Very nice. And son? Your son? Dr. Patel: My son is in the Caine(?) Hospital, a professor of medicine. Prabhupāda: No, no, he is also married? No. Dr. Patel: He is married, yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Father*-mother's responsibility up to marriage. Then they are.... They are locked. They are locked. Dr. Patel: I am more responsible because I have got no wife. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: [break] ...a lot of money in America. These boys are all from there. They are very good boys. You can get butter from Poland (Holland?). Prabhupāda: We can get everything, but the government will not allow. That is the difficulty. We can get grain, food... Dr. Patel: I think grain they would allow. So many Christian institutions from America donate butter and ghee and rice and wheat to the Christian churches here. I think they would not object. We have not tried, perhaps. Prabhupāda: No, we are trying. In Bengal they are trying. Dr. Patel: Not here. They allow. How we are getting that Australian ghee all the time? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: They allow from Australia. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: They should allow from States also. Prabhupāda: [break] ...milk is cheaper than the bottle. Dr. Patel: Just as wine is cheaper in Paris than water. I had to pay more for a glass of water. (Hindi) [break] It is not here, but... Prabhupāda: It is in Delhi. Dr. Patel: They should come here. So they may arrive some day. Prabhupāda: So where is? Arrange to bring him. Otherwise they will not believe. Dr. Patel: No, no, we believe you, sir. But we want a darśana of it. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So ask. Bring it in the meantime. [break] ...not less than one lakh of devotees, at least, so crowded. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Where is that at, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Where is that? Prabhupāda: Māyāpura. Dr. Patel: That is on holy day, no? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Patel: And one on the day you were in London. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I was told. Prabhupāda: There also, packed up, so many. Now our temple is going first, even the other temples are so old. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It was so crowded that you could not even walk on the road coming into our temple. Prabhupāda: And it was a barren place. Dr. Patel: They all come to see the devotees. These foreign devotees, they are enchanted to see them. All these times we were seeing the foreign, foreign, those padres, the Christians. Now we are seeing the sanātana... Prabhupāda: And another the thing is that Ramakrishna Mission has constructed temple of Ramakrishna. Nobody goes there. It is lying barren. Dr. Patel: You were planning to raise a temple in Kurukṣetra? *Prabhupāda: Yes. I have applied to the government for land, twenty*-five acres land. Dr. Patel: Very big. But is that land available to us? Prabhupāda: Yes, available. And we have asked government to give us 350 acres of land in Māyāpura to construct Vedic planetarium, 350 feet high. It will require eight crores of rupees minimum. I shall exhibit there all the planetary system, bhurloka, Goloka... *Dr. Patel: Now the Russians also have come to this conclusion, the Russian scientists and astro*-physicists, that there are some planets here in the cosmos which actually have people, I mean, has life like human beings. The other day I read a big article on that. Now they agree. Prabhupāda: They will agree so many things. Dr. Patel: They will agree later on that the dialectical materialism is not the right thing, but the dialectical spiritualism is the right thing. What Karl Marx said was wrong. But they have started reading the *Vedas* and all these, *Rāmāyaṇa*, *Mahābhārata*, and... Prabhupāda: They have got good sympathy for Indian culture. Dr. Patel: And if they read it, then Karl Marx teaching will go away. Prabhupāda: And we are getting enquiries from Russia of our books, about our books. We are getting enquiries. I am sending Gopāla Kṛṣṇa to make market of our books. Guru dāsa: They have some of our books already in Russia. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: If they start reading Śrīmad*-Bhāgavata and Bhagavad-gītā, then Karl Marx will be lost because the sanātana-dharma is a spiritual communism in fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: The only difference is that the guru never ends. Prabhupāda: What is that? Guru dāsa: The guru never goes out of office. Dr. Patel: Sanātana is eternal. It is eternal religion. It is the religion of the soul and not of the body, dies. Soul is eternal, so religion is eternal. I am right, sir? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sanātana means eternal. Dr. Patel: So this dialectical materialism wherein Karl Marx said that it is a material reaction, chemical reaction in the material, which produces consciousness, it is a falsehood. It is the consciousness keeps the material going. So they will change their opinion now. Guru dāsa: He's basing philosophy on Hegel, thesis and antithesis. Dr. Patel: No, No, Hegel.... Yes, Engels, not Hegel. Guru dāsa: Thesis and antithesis, and then synthesis. Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. Guru dāsa: But it's a false philosophy. Dr. Patel: I mean Hegel did try to improve upon Karl Marx. Really material is important. When the person dies why the body should rot? They every day see. Guru dāsa: Prabhupāda pointed out the other day that when someone dies, we have all the bodily fluids there, all the organs. Why can't we put it together and make life again? Dr. Patel: That's right. So now they have started reading all these, our books. They will now make amendment on it. As you said, they will thesis, synthesis. The present practice of communism in Russia is much more diluted than what it was twenty, thirty years back. Prabhupāda: It should be. Dr. Patel: And it will be like India after twenty years. *Guru dāsa: The result is that the biggest problem in Russia is that no one comes to work*-absenteeism. Dr. Patel: That will be here also. I have been to Ceylon, sir. And in Colombo they are giving free ration to the people. I mean, the rice. Prabhupāda: There is a story in Bengal. (Bengali) The woman had seven sons. The mother requested first son, "My dear boy, now I am going to die. Take me to the Ganges side." He said, "Why? You have got so many other sons, why you are requesting me?" Dr. Patel: She was calling every one, and nobody took her. Prabhupāda: And then second son, third.... Everyone said like that, and she died without Gaṅgā. Agar mā gaṅgā.(?) So this.... And everyone has to work. And he thinks that "Why I shall work? Let him work. No work today." Guru dāsa: You tell the story about a man beating with a stick, and then the police constable came and said, "You have beaten him." "No, no, no. It was the stick that beat him, not me." (laughter) No responsibility. Dr. Patel: No, but, you see, the sense of possession in human society is more important, because they have no sense of possession. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Even with all our philosophic and all our learning we have the sense of possession of this body which can't leave the moha in it. With all that, sir, then how can they do it? Prabhupāda: No, higher than that, the sense that everything is possessed by God, that is perfection. Dr. Patel: That's right, but... Prabhupāda: But they are making.... Just like I possess something, now their possession is.... Now you possess something. We are not reaching the point of God. So it is expanded selfishness. It is not perfect. Perfection will come when they understand that everything is possessed by God. Then that is.... Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. When they come to that conclusion. Dr. Patel: They have started doing. Even grammar is good. They have started studying Upaniṣad in earnest now. I read an article on that, Russian newspapers, studying the philosophy of *Vedas* and *Upaniṣads*. [break] Prabhupāda: They said *Rāmāyaṇa* by Tulasī dāsa, translated in English, and it was finished within a week. They have got little sympathy for Indian culture. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This idea that he was discussing, how we naturally have a tendency to possess something.... If I don't possess the state, I possess the body. Is this the disease? Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to nullify this, that "I don't possess anything; God possess everything." Then it is perfection. *Dr. Patel: No, that is why, sir, this communism cannot survive, because they say that afterward the state will vanish. It will evaporate. How can it evaporate without spiritualism there at the back? They have a materialistic ideology and material, I mean, there are changes. There is nothing permanent in material. So the communism, so*-called material communism, dialectic materialism of Karl Marx, are not full. [break] Guru dāsa: Your name is man, and Dr. Patel.... You've been given a title, "Dr. Patel." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda gave an example that if you see a note on the floor... Dr. Patel: Only name of God has value. Prabhupāda: Practical application. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda gave the example that if you see a note on the floor, three different people, one person sees it and ignores it, so he doesn't know the proper utilization of the thing. Another person sees it, picks it up and puts it in his pocket. He is dishonest. The third person sees it, picks it up, and seeks out the real owner. So there has to be Kṛṣṇa consciousness; otherwise how do we know who everything belongs to? Dr. Patel: That is spiritual concern. And spirit itself.... Kṛṣṇa is.... I mean, without Kṛṣṇa there cannot be anything. That is the highest culture. Guru dāsa: Kṛṣṇa even lets people forget Him. Dr. Patel: (plane overhead) *Vedas* say that... Prabhupāda: [break] ...and prasāda shall be ready. Anyone comes, he may give him. Then it will be nice. Dr. Patel: But God has made māyā so strong that if the man is not attracted or caught into the web of māyā, the whole saṁsāra would not go. (laughs) That because God wants to... Prabhupāda: The same argument. If people do not become criminal, how the prison house will be maintained? Dr. Patel: It is a prison house. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dr. Patel: God wants the prison house to... Guru dāsa: No, no, first there are so many criminals, and then prison house has to be built. Because there are so many, a bigger prison house has to be built. Prabhupāda: Just like now medical science is improving means hospital increasing. That means people are becoming more diseased. And they are taking it advanced. Dr. Patel: No, no, modern advancement is required, even hospitals. So modern medicine is always preventative. Prabhupāda: Stop disease; *otherwise where is improvement? (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...poetry, kṛṣṇa*-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare (Prema-vivarta). As soon as the living entity desires sense gratification, immediately māyā captures. Dr. Patel: That is what I want. I really meant. Man is producing the desire. You cannot... *Prabhupāda: [break] ...sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. Dr. Patel: New (indistinct), do you mean to say? *Prabhupāda: No, old (indistinct), everything. Yes, all, all squared up, all accounts squared up. Begin new chapter of your life. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. As soon as one begins devotional service, he shall be clean of all sinful reactions. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: So why not stay for a longer time here? Prabhupāda: Nobody comes to hear. Dr. Patel: When you are staying here in Bombay your health does improve very well. Prabhupāda: No, Bombay I like very well. Because I like Bombay and this beach, I was so much persistent for get this land. That is the history. Every one of my disciples, they declined. I insisted, "I must possess this land." And Nair was thinking that "This man has no money, so just involve him, and whatever money he gives us, I take it." Dr. Patel: But before he could sell, he died, poor fellow. Prabhupāda: And now? Dr. Patel: He died, no? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] And when she decided to kill Kṛṣṇa, she was killed. Dr. Patel: And Kṛṣṇa gave... Prabhupāda: Yes, she got good fortune. Dr. Patel: Gave her the mukti. Prabhupāda: Kambhat? Kambhata? Kambhata means this...(?) Dr. Patel: This aviation fellow. Prabhupāda: No, that what is called? Kambhata.(?) Dr. Patel: ...he has got some planes here. Some safari service. [break] Guru dāsa: Why? Why not technology? Dr. Patel: I don't know. Guru dāsa: Because the *Vedas* is the essence of everything. That's why. There's technology here. Why we don't steal the technology? Dr. Patel: We have no technology. That is our technology. You are taking our technology. Guru dāsa: So why you are not taking your technology, the Vedic system? Dr. Patel: We have ourselves the original technology. Guru dāsa: Indians should take the Vedic technology. (end) *Morning Walk-*-April 13, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: We have already constructed for our residential quarters. That is already there, very big. Such a big building is not there in that district. Indian man (1): (Hindi) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Prabhupāda is doing everything. We are simply like puppets. He tells us what to do. Transcendental management. Indian man (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Just in Bombay, what you are constructing, the gate, are they going to be like another Indian temples, only gates? Will they look like a big temple? Dr. Patel: You mean those.... (Hindi) In south we have got those temples, gates. That is only common in southern India but not anywhere else. Gopurams. Prabhupāda: Gopurams. Dr. Patel: Gopurams are not found anywhere else. Indian man (2): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Raṅganātha temple is in Vṛndāvana or in south? Prabhupāda: No, original, south. Here in Vṛndāvana also there is... Dr. Patel: That was the temple where this, I mean, Rāmānujācārya, they would.... That is Śrī Raṅgapuram. [break] Prabhupāda: Not at all. It is a business. Dr. Patel: People give them money. Prabhupāda: No, no, that money is utilized for business. They are so businessman that people go and sacrifice their hair, and they are selling. Dr. Patel: That I know. They are selling hair to foreign countries. Selling hair. Prabhupāda: And they are investing money for so many business, not for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Patel: No, they're establishing colleges and Sanskrit... Prabhupāda: But college.... College is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Patel: Sanskrit Vidyālaya and Vedic institutions. They have one or two. Indian (3): (Hindi) Dr. Patel: You have gone for darśana? That side? Prabhupāda: We met station platform, means...(?) That is another thing(?). Dr. Patel: Otherwise for common people, it is very difficult Indian man (1): One man was waiting in a queue for four hours. Did not see. And he came back. Dr. Patel: There is a fee. There is a fee for going. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In some places, even if you have money, you cannot see, like Jagannātha. *Dr. Patel: They are fools, sir. You can go. I think one day I will have to go with them and fight out the whole case. These boys should be allowed. They follow the sanātana*-dharma. And again in.... I mean, now the government has put the regulations that all the temples are open to all, anybody and everybody. How can they refuse? Who are at that maṭha, Jagannātha? Those people, they must be from Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Local men. Dr. Patel: All the big temples in India have got management committees, practically people from various parts. Our own Jagannātha Purī, I mean, this, our Dvārakā temple is managed by people from Bombay. Bombay, Delhi, and many other places. So they must have all... *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even one of our Indian men they stopped. Caitya*-guru told me that when he went there they thought he was Westerner. They wouldn't let him in the second time he tried to go in. *Dr. Patel: This gentleman is coming before the judge of the Bombay high*-court. Guru dāsa: We can see the cakra on the top. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: We can see the cakra on the top. It is the same. Dr. Patel: [break] No, no, no, don't. It should have been taken out, not here but there. That was not for, but that was the government of India wanted to construct an office for customs here, and we objected, that "You can't do it in the sea area where we have to..., on the beach." So they broke it down. You know that small.... It will not be. Prabhupāda: It can continue. It can continue. Dr. Patel: They come down there and just stay for pleasure. Because this temple. Prabhupāda: No, no, nobody can stay without following our rules and regulations. That is not our... Dr. Patel: Externally they may follow. They may be people, out of difficulty... Guru dāsa: Everyone is in difficulty. Prabhupāda: It will be an institution for teaching spiritual life. So if he does not take the teaching, then it is not... Dr. Patel: One thing, you must have a Sanskrit school. Prabhupāda: That we can have. Sanskrit is already there in the books. *Dr. Patel: And then let them have a factual teaching of Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Now every gentleman knows English, so we have explained everything in English. There is no difficulty. Dr. Patel: That is right, sir. But when you see, I mean, study a thing in English and study original language, you... Prabhupāda: Original language? Nobody can read Sanskrit nowadays. Even the Sanskrit paṇḍitas, they also cannot read. I have tried it. [break] It does not depend on understanding language. Dr. Patel: That's right. Prabhupāda: Hearing. One who has heard, given oral reception nicely, he is perfect knowledge. Therefore our *Vedas* are known as śruti. You have to learn it by hearing, not by studying. Dr. Patel: In bhakti also, śravaṇam is first. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. Jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu. Anyone who is not taking seriously to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is purposefully committing suicide. It is not a sentiment; it is a scientific movement. But they do not care to understand. Therefore, purposefully they are committing suicide. Jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu, very appropriate word: "I have drunk poison knowingly." We shall return now? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hari hari bifale, janama goṅāinu. Jaya. "I am free. What can I...? Whatever I like, I can do," without knowing, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. *Dr. Patel: Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā. Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra. "Ah, what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? I can do without." Dr. Patel: Once a man is free of ahaṅkāra, then he is... *Prabhupāda: No, ahaṅkāra there will be, but ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā, thinking falsely something, that "I am this body." Therefore he's vimūḍha. They are animal. Ahaṅkāra is there, "I am Brahman, spirit soul." But he is thinking, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am dog," "I am cat." Vimūḍhātmā. And this first principle of knowledge they cannot understand. Mūḍha. Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. [break] Man-manā. That is the only way. *Dr. Patel: That is ananya*-bhakti. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Parā*-bhakti. *Prabhupāda: Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: "To become My devotee means you shall think of Me twenty-four hours," man-manā. Then you become a bhakta. Not that meditation*-I meditate fifteen minutes and twenty-four hours thinking of something else. Dr. Patel: Then you never, I mean, even for, it is just like you, even for a moment you slip down, just like a (indistinct). It should be perpetual conscious within yourself. *Prabhupāda: I have seen Gandhi's prayer meeting, and I attended. Utmost, five minutes reading Bhagavad*-gītā, then again politics immediately. Immediately politics. I was in Delhi. I attended the meeting when Nawa Khalia (Noakhali?) fast. So this was his prayer. I have seen. And as a result of this, in that prayer meeting he was killed. (Hindi) So nature punishment are there. (Hindi) The last stage of Kali-yuga means you die. Dr. Patel: But the way the modern civilized nations are exploiting the resources of the world, another fifty years there will be no resources left, and civilization automatically will die out. Prabhupāda: Wars. The occasional war, pestilence, famine, that's all. Dr. Patel: Even there is no war, sir, or no pestilence, the population... Prabhupāda: There will be war. Because you are dissatisfied, I am dissatisfied, on some little provocation we fight. Nobody is happy. I have seen in Allahabad. Little provocation, two brothers fought so much, one brother was killed immediately. Then, when he was ordered to be hanged, his father appealed that "I am the father. One son I have already lost. If he is hanged, then my.... You hang me, my good man(?)." Then he excused him and he actually was.... Upon the father's appeal. I have seen it. Dr. Patel: They are very fortunate people. Prabhupāda: No, no, they were Bengalis. Dr. Patel: Bengalis are highly, what do you call... Prabhupāda: Sentimental. Dr. Patel: Abhimānī. Prabhupāda: No, no. Everyone is abhimānī, more or less. Dr. Patel: No, but they are more than other. I think I am not wrong. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Yasyātmā*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tridhātu... (Hindi) Dr. Patel: You are pleading their case. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say they are little abhimāna, but what kind of abhimāna this is, that "I am God"? Just see how foolish it is. (Hindi) (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. How are you? [break] Indian: We are all right. Very glad to meet you. *Dr. Patel: This man is seventy*-one years old. *Prabhupāda: Jaya. [break] No, no, you can get, but other, mostly ninety*-nine percent, they do not know Sanskrit, and if you ask them to learn Sanskrit and then read Bhagavad-gītā... *Dr. Patel: No, no, no. I said teach Sanskrit through Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Oh, that we are doing. Dr. Patel: That is what I said. Prabhupāda: That we are doing. We give each word's meaning. Each word of any Sanskrit śloka, we give the meaning. That is right. Dr. Patel: That is the way I learned myself. I mean, a student of... *Prabhupāda: If one is serious to learn, he can learn. There is no difficulty. No, dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre [Bg. 1.1]. Now, if he inquires, "The word is dharma-kṣetra. Why it is written kṣetre?" then it is grammar. Dr. Patel: That is what I say. That is the way I learned. *Prabhupāda: So that, if he likes, he can learn it. Saptamī, adhikaraṇa saptamī, sthāna, kṣetra, kṣetre, dharma*-kṣetre. If he simply tries to learn the nominative case, the objective case, or like that, then he'll learn. Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) Like that. All things in different ways. *Prabhupāda: Sañjaya uvāca. It is nominative case. Dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetāḥ [Bg. 1.1], this is plural number, yuyutsavaḥ, plural number. Māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva [Bg. 1.1]. Pāṇḍavāḥ is plural number, and when it is added with ca it becomes śca. The visarga... In this way he can learn. Eva, again sandhi. Māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś ca eva. Dr. Patel: My meaning was that. My idea was that... *Prabhupāda: Yes. So any serious student, he can learn at home. It is not very difficult. And after studying one or two or a dozen sentences like that, automatically, yes, he learns sandhi, he learns verb, he learns subject, object, everything. No time, otherwise I would have made Bhagavad*-gītā grammar. Yes. Dr. Patel: That is what I really meant when I say that... *Prabhupāda: You can do that. You can do that. People will read it, Bhagavad*-gītā grammar. On the Bhagavad-gītā teach them grammar. Just like Jīva Gosvāmī compiled Hari-nāmāmṛta-vyākaraṇa, similarly, you write. You have got both the knowledge, Sanskrit, and through English, Bhagavad-gītā grammar. People will take it. I have no time; *otherwise I have done it. Simply nominative case, objective case, śabda*-rūpa. Jayapatākā's plan is prepared or not? Saurabha: We are going to do that today, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Dr. Patel: (Hindi) That is taught by the mother. Prabhupāda: They are killing their children. In the Western countries the mothers are killing children, advising girls, daughters, "Oh, you are pregnant? Kill." (Hindi) (end) *Morning Walk-*-April 14, 1976, Bombay Dr. Patel: ...saṅkalpa. *Prabhupāda: When I was a child my father gave me one red gun, and then I was not more than eight years. Then, after getting one, I said, "I must have another one." Eh? Then father said, "Why another one? You have got already one." So I said, "No, I have got two hands. I must have two guns." Then my father, "No, you are not.... I am not going..." Then I made so much agitation, he was obliged to give me two guns. (laughter) I was very pet child of my father and very pet son*-in-law also. And I am very pet guru also. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. What is this? Dr. Patel: This is Hanumān jayantī today. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Today is also the rāsa*-yātrā of Balarāmajī. *Prabhupāda: Oh, rāsa*-yātrā. Oh. So you have some festival? *Dr. Patel: Yes, they have got the festival in the Rāma*-mandira. Girirāja: We're having a bigger festival in our mandira. Dr. Patel: Good. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also it is the appearance day of Śyāmānanda Gosvāmī and Vaṁśī*-vadana Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: How many stories still remain? Saurabha: Three. Three on top. The towers. Viśāla: Prabhupāda ki jaya! Prabhupāda: How are you? Viśāla: Fine, thank you. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom you are coming? Viśāla: From Rome and Paris. Prabhupāda: Oh. Viśāla: Bhagavān took real good care of us. Prabhupāda: Where is your wife? Viśāla: She is here, Your Divine Grace. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's going to Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: That's nice. He is very good boy. [break] ...that these people are coming for Indian culture, and government is restricting, "Don't come here. Don't come here." We are so degraded. Dr. Patel: They are frightened of the American CID's. Prabhupāda: They may frighten. A rascal may be frightened. Dr. Patel: The Americans are all rascals, they say. Prabhupāda: That is not the cause. Indian: What is the cause? Dr. Patel: Then what is the cause? No, what is the cause? Indian: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Government (Hindi) They have admitted in the Parliament. Indian: They are frightened in the beginning. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I think they are very slow to act. Prabhupāda: No, the real is that all rogues are in the government. Dr. Patel: Yes, that is the right thing. Not only rogues... *Prabhupāda: So why don't you, if you are actually serious, why don't you make propaganda in the country that "Please do not give vote to the rogues." Don't mention any party. "If you want to be happy, then don't give vote to the rogues." And who is a rogue? The illicit sex hunters, the intoxicants, and the meat*-eaters, and the gamblers. These are rogues. Dr. Patel: They are all there in Delhi. Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't mention any. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So it is impartial. And actually, if they test that "Whether this man I am voting, he is free from all these sinful activities?" Then, you see, the whole face of the Indian government will change. Dr. Patel: Sir, I may tell you, the adults.... That change is meant for the educated, cultured, and... Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't name that educated, cultured. You simply say that "You vote for this person." *Dr. Patel: People vote for five*-rupee notes. They don't vote anything else. Prabhupāda: Then they will suffer. Then don't, don't complain. Don't complain. Dr. Patel: I was a political worker myself and a member of the ruling party and a member of the assembly. I know how they collect votes. Prabhupāda: If you.... For five rupees if you sacrifice your sacred right, then how can you expect good government? Dr. Patel: But they never desired to have these rights. They should be disenfranchised, those who will not understand their responsibility towards their country. Prabhupāda: So at least you can make some propaganda that "Don't give votes to these persons." Don't name any. Then he will be envious. No. Dr. Patel: You will be in the jail. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I don't mind going to the... Prabhupāda: No, if you preach these moral principles, nobody will object. Nobody will object. Dr. Patel: They are shamming themselves as big moralist. They go to temples and what not and what not and what not. And then they... Prabhupāda: But still in India they will never accept a drunkard as moralist. Still. Dr. Patel: Sir, all of them are drunkards, who are there. Prabhupāda: You cannot say. Dr. Patel: Majority, sir. Prabhupāda: Mass of people, they are not drunkard. Dr. Patel: Not mass, I mean those people who are in Delhi. Prabhupāda: They? They are not majority. Therefore we have to reform. Dr. Patel: Only God will reform them by giving them.... They should be chastised. Prabhupāda: They are being chastised, but they are so fool, they cannot understand they are being chastised. Just like a dog is being chastised. He cannot have eating, eatables, whole day and night, eating stool. Somebody's stoning, somebody's sticking, and still, he is very jubilant: "Gow, gow, gow, gow, I am very happy." (laughter) This is going on. So this dog's association, dog society, they are suffering in every step; *still, they are thinking, "We are making progress." That's all. Dog civilization. Hog civilization. Dog civilization. This is not civilization. Nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. Dog civilization. Dr. Patel: Sir, this civilization is degrading because of the cinemas and things. The mothers are the really... Prabhupāda: And you do not know. Cinema is not cause. Cause is godlessness. Dr. Patel: But because the godlessness starts from there. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Dr. Patel: Who are the ideals of these women? The cinema actresses. Who were the ideals of our mothers? Sāvitrī and Sītā. Prabhupāda: There are so many, so many. Dr. Patel: That is very important. This is very important, sir. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There are many cinemas in America... Indian: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: I mean, one percent. But many cinemas are there. I have not seen. The people say so. Prabhupāda: You see, when a man is diseased there are many symptoms of ailments. You cannot say.... You are a physician. You know. You cannot say, "This is the cause of the disease." It is.... Real, one disease is there, and there are so many ailments. So you cannot say... Dr. Patel: : You mean the cause of the cause of the cause is godlessness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Symptoms are there. Dr. Patel: Cause of the cause of the cause. Prabhupāda: Yes. These are only outward... Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Yes. There are.... In logic there are two causes: immediate cause and remote cause. So remote cause is taken into consideration. *Dr. Patel: The important cause is the Kali*-yuga. Prabhupāda: That Vijaya Datta(?) is interested for gurukula. Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Why not construct a big building for gurukula here? The students will be trained up to come here and sporting, having nice bath and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and build up their character. And in Bombay you will get many children, because there are so many rich men. They are not so much concerned to make their children technologist. If they get good education and character, they will give. Technologists they can purchase. Birla, they are not going to be technologist. They purchase technologist. I have seen in many respectable Marwari house. They don't send their children to school. They don't send. Dr. Patel: After matriculation they go to the office. *Prabhupāda: No matriculation. They engage good paṇḍitas, good teachers, and teach them at home, and, as soon as they are able to read and write and see accounts, immediately engage in the business. They know that "We can purchase technologist. Why shall I waste time for so*-called education, Ph.D., D.A.C.?" You have seen that Ph.D. in our Vṛndāvana? Useless. So many Ph.D.'s are useless. Cannot earn their livelihood. I have seen. So what is the use? Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta. Because one has become.... I have seen one Ph.D. chemist in Allahabad. He could not get any job. Then he was manufacturing soap at home and taking it in cycle and going to the market just like ordinary coolie. These so-called educationists, unless they get a good job, they are useless street dog. Useless. They cannot earn even livelihood. Therefore śāstra says, "Don't try for these things, to increase your economic position. This is already destined. You cannot increase or decrease. Whatever you are destined, you must get it. Try to get Kṛṣṇa consciousness." *You'll get. As you get miserable condition of life*-you don't like it but it comes-similarly, happy condition will also come according to your destiny. Why you are wasting time for this? This is the decision of the śāstra. You cannot change your destiny. If you have to be, have to work like a coolie, even after becoming Ph.D. you'll have to work like a coolie. You cannot change it. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Jaya. This is.... Therefore formerly any man was satisfied in any position. They were not trying to develop economic condition, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. She is your daughter? Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jaya. (Hindi) Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Thank you. *Dr. Patel: He is such a man. He has all the characteristics of a sannyāsī in the home. He is a multi*-millionaire's son. But absolutely untouched by wealth, and very fine man, extremely fine. Prabhupāda: If our gurukula children comes here they can have very good sporting. And this idea I have given you? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Remain healthy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Twice a day. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Twice a day can come, take bath and enjoy sporting life and then chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, take good prasādam. That's all. Why they should waste their time in technology to become a coolie? Girirāja: Actually there was once a case. A newspaper once wrote that Henry Ford was ignorant. So Henry Ford filed a case against the newspaper. So in the hearing, the defense asked so many questions about science and history to Henry Ford. So Henry Ford said to the judge that "In my office I have a panel of buttons, and I can press any button and someone will come running to answer any of these questions. So am I ignorant?" (laughter) Prabhupāda: Just see. Dr. Patel: When Mr. Ford comes willing, back on...? Is he coming back again? Prabhupāda: No, there are many. There are many. Now, you see, near Delhi there is Modi Nagar. That Mr. Modi was not very educated man, but how he has developed? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He is employing something like fifty thousand people. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) Mr. Modi near Delhi. Dr. Patel: Modinagarawala. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is employing fifty thousand people, without any education. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We had a very big program in Modinagara. Prabhupāda: His wife received us very nicely. Dr. Patel: Very cultured people. My cousin's daughter is married to his nephew, Modinagarawala. He's a big architect. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, Modi, he... Dr. Patel: This Modi, is, I mean, an industrialist, but his nephew, an architect.... My niece was studying in London, and she married with him in England. Intercommunal marriage. Abhirāma: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. *Abhirāma: I have seen in Miami Beach that one man was found dead in his apartment, and he was living poverty*-stricken. His whole place was full of rats and cockroaches. When they investigated his file they found that he had eight million dollars in the bank and in stocks. But all of his friends said he couldn't spend one penny his whole life, because he was too cheap. So even though he was a rich man, actually he was a poor man. Dr. Patel: But, sir, there are some beggars here in Bombay who have got one and two lakh rupees. You have read the railway(?) story about couple of beggars. They rounded up, and they had money. Prabhupāda: No, I am also a beggar. I am also beggar. Dr. Patel: That is not.... You are a rich beggar. Prabhupāda: Millions of dollars. Dr. Patel: Sannyāsīs don't touch money. Prabhupāda: Yes, I don't touch money. They pass check. (laughter) I simply sign check. All these accounts in Bombay, they are being managed by them. I do not touch even. Lakhs and lakhs of rupees they are spending. Dr. Patel: Begging is prohibited, so they rounded up the beggars sometime back. Prabhupāda: Therefore I tell him this way. Just give books. Transcendental fraud, that we give, say, fifty rupees' worth book, and we draw 2222. Buddhir yasya balaṁ tasya nirbuddhes tu balaṁ kutaḥ.(?)Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. You know that story? Eh? You know that story, buddhir yasya balaṁ tasya? Dr. Patel: "The man who has got the buddhi is a strong man." Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Paśya siṁho madonmataḥ śaśaḥ kena nipatitaḥ.(?) This is Hitopadeśa story. You know this? Dr. Patel: No, I don't know this. Prabhupāda: There was a lion in the forest, and he was disturbing all the animals. So there was a peace conference: "Sir, you don't disturb every one of us. We shall come." Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Eka eka.... (Hindi) "We shall come automatically." So one day it was the turn of a rabbit. So he was a little late, so the lion, "Why you are late? My time is over." "Yes sir, another lion in the way, he wanted to eat me. So I said, 'No, you cannot eat me. I will be eaten by such and such Mr. Lion.' " So he became very..., "Who is that?" "Yes, come on. I will show you." So he got him near a well, and he said that "Here is the lion." So immediately, (growls) "Aww!" (laughter) And there was sound, "Aww!" Then he saw the photo, I mean, the reflection, and immediately jumped over. A śaśa, the rabbit, killed a big lion by intelligence. The Aesop's Fable was imitated from this Hitopadeśa. Dr. Patel: Yes, all are translated more or less. Prabhupāda: The Hitopadeśa was written by Viṣṇu-śarmā. [break] Dr. Patel: ...Upaniṣad, in sixth or seventh chapter, he says that even bala is.... I mean buddhi is not stronger than bala. He described like that. (Hindi) Strong man is like that, they have described. That is what.... That is there in Chāndogya Upaniṣad. It was just sort of a story Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Concerning the gurukula system, after a child attains a certain age... *Prabhupāda: No age. As soon as he is able to walk, he can be admitted. What is the wrong there? If he comes to the sea and takes bath and jumps, it doesn't require any age. Any four*-year, five-year-old child can do that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: When he becomes, say, twenty years old, though, when he becomes older... Prabhupāda: First of all begin. Then we shall think of old. But.... At least when he is older, he will not become a nonsense. That.... We want to save him from becoming a nonsense. That is our duty. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Brahmacārī gurukule vasan dāntaḥ. When the brahmacārī is residing in gurukula, he must be trained up how to control senses. That is the first education. People are spoiled because they are not trained up to become controller. That is the defect of the modern age. And when one is unable to control senses, he will do all nonsense. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Vṛndāvana the gurukula children went to the Yamunā for two days. Even though it was a forty*-five minute walk one way, they enjoyed it. Prabhupāda: Yes, they'll enjoy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It was a very nice procession. Prabhupāda: Very good health. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And they're doing it every day now. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...intelligence and kṣatriya's executive power and vaiśya's productive capacity and śūdra's labor. This combined together makes the whole society perfect. Dr. Patel: How this social order can be generated in India? Prabhupāda: (to passerby:) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Indian man: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: The kṣatriya's duty is that everyone is religious. It doesn't matter whether he follows Muslim or.... That is kṣatriya's duty, not that to discriminate, "The Hindu religion is better than the Muslim religion. Muslim..." That is not the way. If everyone is religious, it doesn't matter whether he is Hindu... Dr. Patel: No religious Muslim would have ever done harm to Hindus. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: These are also ruled, these Mullahs. Prabhupāda: Therefore one.... The government's duty is to see that everyone is actually religious and moral. It doesn't matter if he follows some type of religion. [break] ...to discriminate that "Hindu religion is good, Muslim religion is..." Then you cannot act as king. Dr. Patel: All religion are of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharmaṁ tu... *Dr. Patel: I have not been able to find out any difference between the Bhāgavata*-dharma and the Christianity. I have studied so thoroughly both of them. Actually Jesus Christ has taught nothing but Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavata. Still, the Christians, when they came here, these Portuguese, converted these people to Christians. They are fanatics. They are not... Prabhupāda: No, they are doing.... They are doing in their own countries. In France the Roman Catholics and the Protestants, they are fighting and cutting each other's head. And still going on, it is. This is fanaticism. Indian man: Political fanaticism. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Yes, and said Sītā was a prostitute. I don't know.... And still, the government could, I mean, support them. It's too much of a joke. *Prabhupāda: But these.... You cannot.... Even on religious principle or so*-called religion, you cannot make equality. The rogues will always remain, either Hindu, Muslim. Dr. Patel: You know that Naikar(?) last year. [break] Secular means you respect all religions. That is the definition of secularism. They mean, secularism means no religion. They are fools. You can call them rascals. Prabhupāda: Because we rascals vote them. Dr. Patel: No, sir. What man, rascals, vote them? It is the hutment fellows who bring them because they are in majority. I have never been elect to, I mean my candidate. Every time my vote goes useless. Prabhupāda: That means you or your brother votes; somebody is elected. People are degenerated; therefore they do not know whom to vote. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are what, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People are? Prabhupāda: Degenerated. They do not... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Degenerated. Prabhupāda: Therefore they do not know. *Dr. Patel: They vote five*-rupees notes. *Prabhupāda: So that is degeneration. For five*-rupee notes he is giving his valuable vote to anybody. That is degeneration. *Dr. Patel: That is why we really.... We are not for this type of Western type of democracy. We should have Rāma*-rājya, a benevolent dictatorship of a good king, a religious king like Rāma. That should be the ideal condition for this country. This way, sir. Prabhupāda: Our buses are bigger than this, I think. Eh? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Dr. Patel: This is a Matadar Campo(?), no? This is a Matadar Campo(?). Devotee (2): [break] ...Deities with Acyutānanda Swami. He's going to travel down South India as soon as he's finished... *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very nice. Better Gaura*-Nitāi. Gaura-Nitāi is better. *Devotee (2): But Acyutānanda was explaining that people in South India don't accept Gaura*-Nitāi so much as Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Oh, all right. (end) *Morning Walk-*-April 15, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...detached to that, Jain. So he was advertising about that Jain Muni. Dr. Patel: Susil Kumar. Prabhupāda: Susil Kumar. He went to San Francisco. He met me there. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So he has come back, so I inquired what is the result of his preaching. Viśāla: All glories to Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: He said that he has converted one million persons to be vegetarian. So vegetarian, automatically our disciples, they are automatically vegetarian. There is no separate preaching. And what about the... He was talking about the ahiṁsā. And I told that vegetarian does not mean ahiṁsā. Dr. Patel: The ahiṁsā should be practiced by... (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: No, in the śāstra it is said that ahastāni sa*-hastānām apadāni catuṣ-padām. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Phalgūni tatra mahatām. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Phalgūni tatra mahatām. Prabhupāda: Ah, phalgūni mahatāṁ tatra. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Prabhupāda: Mahatāṁ tatra jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. This is natural, that one jīva is the food for another jīva. So how ahiṁsā is possible? Dr. Patel: That has been said in *Rāmāyaṇa* by that Matan(?) Muni, you know, Matan Muni who was harboring Saubhari, and then he was killing one elephant and living on the elephant for one year, and all other ṛṣis were against him. He was, I mean, not practicing ahiṁsā. Then he gave the feast to all those ṛṣis, and the lāḍu starting moving about. Everywhere there is life, I mean, every grain of the wheat or... Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore how it is possible? Because, after all, apart from Matan(?) Muni, if this is the rule, that one living entity is the food for another living entity... This is the law of nature. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. You cannot starve and live. Dr. Patel: But sir... Prabhupāda: And practically... Eh? Dr. Patel: We are killing the body and not... The soul is inkillable. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Don't go to the philosophy. First of all come to the practical. (Dr. Patel laughs) Come to the practical point of view, that after all, you have to eat; *otherwise you cannot live. Āhāra*-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam. So if you have to live another living entity, then how you can practice this ahiṁsā? Mean on the basic principle, the ahiṁsā paramo dharma, where is ahiṁsā? You have to kill. Either you kill vegetable or animal, you have to kill. Then where is the standing of ahiṁsā? That is my point. Dr. Patel: When you kill purposelessly, without any useful... Prabhupāda: No, no. No interpretation. They say that "no killing." So no killing is not possible. That is my point. Then where is the thesis stands, that "We are for not, no killing"? Dr. Patel: Every action, sir, is, I mean, entangled in this. Prabhupāda: So then our Vaiṣṇava's philosophy is perfect, because we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. We don't say vegetables. We are not advocating vegetarianism. We are advocating that "You take Kṛṣṇa prasādam." How perfect it is. We are not so nonsense that "Because we have become vegetarian, we are perfect." The goats are vegetarian. Dr. Patel: (laughter) And we are indirectly vegetarians if we eat goats. *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Even if we vegetarian are, then how you become big? The goats are vegetarian. Huh? Apadāni catuṣ*-padām. This vegetable is meant for the catuṣ-padām, for the animals, four-legged animals. If somebody says that "Why shall I take this vegetable? It is meant for the animals. I shall take the animal." That is a good argument. Yes. So to become vegetarian is not ahiṁsā at all. It is a bogus theory. To become a devotee and take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, that is perfect. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. So automatically... Dr. Patel: He does not say, "Give me a, I mean, a (Hindi)." Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. *Prabhupāda: That. Then there is perfection, if you take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Prasāde sarva*-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate. So this vegetarianism is no good position. Dr. Patel: No, no, the Jains have, I mean, pushed the vegetarians to a very, I mean, to an extent which is... Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the benefit? The benefit? The goats are vegetarian. Eh? There are so many animals. They are vegetarian. The monkeys are vegetarian. Dr. Patel: They are perfect vegetarian. Perfect. Prabhupāda: And they live in the forest. Dr. Patel: They are sannyāsīs. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: But number*-one rogue. Each of them keeping one dozen women, at least, and no discrimination between wife or daughter. No discrimination. Just like hogs. That's all. No discrimination. *Yaśomatī*-nandana: Cows are also vegetarians. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Yaśomatī*-nandana: Cows, they are also vegetarians. Prabhupāda: Cows are vegetarian. That's all right. There are many animals, vegetarian. So there is no perfection of life unless we come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply by becoming vegetarian, simply by becoming nonviolent, simply by... These are all theories only. It has no value. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is sometimes put forward that not everyone will be able to embrace Kṛṣṇa consciousness fully. Therefore it may be better for them to accept some portion, like, for example, taking up vegetarianism or even doing haṭha*-yoga, or something like this is better than nothing. *Prabhupāda: No, that is not very essential. Essential is how to think of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. He doesn't say that you become vegetarian. *Dr. Patel: That said, tad*-arthaṁ karma kaunteya mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara: "You must do everything for Him, even eating." Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: That is vegetarianism. Prabhupāda: Then, then you are... Then automatically he'll become vegetarian. Automatically he'll become vegetarian. If he takes Kṛṣṇa prasādam, then he is vegetarian automatically. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it may seem like these other things are stepping*-stones to Kṛṣṇa, but is it necessarily so? *Prabhupāda: No stepping*-stone. This is the ultimate, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], these four things. Unless you come to this point, there is no question of perfection. Dr. Patel: That's right. Then you feel that every action of yours is done for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Not feel, but actually it's an order. Dr. Patel: Actually doing it. Prabhupāda: Arjuna did not feel; he took order to kill. Not that you manufacture your idea. No. That is not. You take order directly and then do it; *otherwise you'll be responsible. Therefore the guru is required to act as representative of Kṛṣṇa. If he says, "Yes, it is all right," then it is all right. Otherwise not. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. Otherwise why guru is required? We must take every moment order from him. Dr. Patel: Ya bhakti.... Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau [ŚU 6.23]. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ. Prabhupāda: Kathitā. You cannot manufacture some ideas that "I am feeling I am doing for Kṛṣṇa." No. That will not be... Direct order. She is going behind? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Dr. Patel: Today is a full moon day, and the full tide came at twelve o'clock by night. So after eight o'clock there is a full reverse of it, what do you call it? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Low tide. Dr. Patel: Low tide. Yes. (Hindi to passerby) Prabhupāda: [break] Garuḍa. He is perfect vegetarian. You know what is his food? Snakes. (Dr. Patel laughs) And he is carrying the Lord. It is a devotee, you see? He is not vegetarian. And how powerful he is that one sparrow, a small bird, lost his egg. The samudra took it away. And he decided, "I shall dry this samudra." So he began to pick up some water. So Nārada Muni was passing. So he asked, "What you are doing?" And "Sir, yes, the samudra has taken my egg, so I shall dry it up." So he said, "But how you can do it? You are so small. You just pray to your head. You are bird, and he is the head of the birds. You just pray to Garuḍa. He can do it." So he prayed Garuḍa, and Garuḍa came and asked samudra, "Immediately deliver; *otherwise I shall take step." Immediately it was delivered. Such powerful. Yes. And he was not a vegetarian. (Hindi with Dr. Patel) You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the... (Hindi with Dr. Patel) (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you very much. Namaskāra. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Real culture is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. (Hindi)...no illicit sex, no gambling, automatically. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samā... If you simply turn these people to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all good qualities will come automatically. All good qualities. That is wanted. And we are practically seeing that. Simply by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, lover of Kṛṣṇa, they are becoming qualified. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. There is no good qualification for a nondevotee. He'll simply act on mental speculation, that's all. It has no value. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes people are amazed that we've given up such sinful activities. Prabhupāda: Yes, they should be amazed, because they are mental speculators. Dr. Patel: You mean unconditional surrender. *Prabhupāda: And here are the surrendered souls. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, api cet sudurācāro. "Even they have got some bad symptoms," bhajate mām ananya*-bhāk, "but if he is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious," sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30], "he is sādhu." So if we want to make the whole world sādhu, perfect human being, then we have to push on this movement without any hesitation. All people will be sādhu, and then there will be peace and prosperity. Dr. Patel: You mean bring about the spiritual communism of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: That is real com... Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. They are stating, "Everything belongs to the state." Why you are limiting? State is limited. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Then it is perfect communism. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Bible it says, "On earth as it is in heaven," that the life on earth should be also under the domain of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But there is no program how to actually do that. *Prabhupāda: No, program is there. Kṛṣṇa is speaking, "Do this program, execute," man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad... Program is there, but rascal will not take it. There is no difficulty. *Dr. Patel: The Christian prayers are also the self*-surrender. Prabhupāda: Any prayer. If we become God conscious... Dr. Patel: "Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom..." *Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. And without God consciousness there is no qualification. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. There cannot be any good qualities. [break] Dr. Patel: Then His kingdom can come on earth, not otherwise. Prabhupāda: No, no. If one man becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, he can deliver many millions. Not expected... You cannot expect all to become, but if one man is there, Kṛṣṇa conscious, he can deliver. [break] Kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścid... [Bg. 7.3]. So it is not so easy thing, but if there is one Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he can deliver many millions. [break] ...ti śreṣṭhas ...lokas tad anuvartate. There must be one śreṣṭha, ideal man, and then everyone will follow. And there is no śreṣṭha. That is the difficulty. Dr. Patel: Śreṣṭha is only God. Śrī iṣṭha means śreṣṭha, sir. The śrī iṣṭha is only... Prabhupāda: Yes, śreṣṭha, but one who follows Him, he is also śreṣṭha. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mahat*-sevām. *Prabhupāda: Hm. Mahat*-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ [SB 5.5.2]. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "By associating with devotees..." *Prabhupāda: Tamo*-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgam. Tamo-dvāram, the path of darkness, if they associate with yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgam. *Dr. Patel: There is sat*-saṅga sadācāraṁ nirāvinam.(?)These three qualities come to men, sir. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sat*-saṅga means you have to associate with sat, devotees. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ [SB 3.25.25]. If you associate with sat-saṅga, then you'll gradually relish Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise not. Dr. Patel: Just like Nārada Muni. *Prabhupāda: Yes, anyone. Anyone. It is open to everyone. So therefore we are trying to open centers, all parts of the world, to give them chance of sat*-saṅga, so that gradually they will become perfect. And that is happening actually. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never said that you find out some first-class men. No. He said, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa. It is not necessary that you have to find out some qualified person. Anyone. Simply instruct him what Kṛṣṇa has said, that's all. Yāre dekha tāre kaha. There is no question of selecting. Why selection? All are fallen. The so-called gentleman, he is also fallen. As soon as you see he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is within these four groups: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayā... Immediately conclude. *Dr. Patel: Sir, duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, all are māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Dr. Patel: All of them are māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ. *Prabhupāda: No, no, māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ. Dr. Patel: They, all of them, all the three (indistinct) also. Prabhupāda: So he may say that "I have passed B.A., M.A., Ph.D., D.H.C.," and "Whether you are Kṛṣṇa conscious?" "No, sir." "Then you are a fool, rascal." Dr. Patel: (laughs) The B.A., M.A., are māyā degrees. *Prabhupāda: This preaching is done by Śyāmasundara's little daughter, five years, six years. She goes to a gentleman, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" So he says, "No, I do not know." "The Supreme Personality of Godhead." Just see. This is preaching. A child can do this preaching work. She has learned from us, and she is convinced that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and she goes to anyone, "Do you know who is Kṛṣṇa?" He says, "No, I do not know." "The Supreme Personality." This is preaching. Then he is a good preacher. That's all. The rascal does not know Kṛṣṇa. He gets at least some information, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." And on this basis our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, Ph.D.... You have read that book? It is first class. The scientist, so*-called scientist, unless he is insane, he cannot say that there is no God. He has written so nice, from scientific. Dr. Patel: But the real scientists are also God conscious. Prabhupāda: That is all right. He is real scientist. Dr. Patel: You have been unfortunately against them, but think of Albert Einstein. He was totally God conscious throughout his life. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is all right, but mostly they say, "What is the use of God? Now science, everything science." They say like that. Dr. Patel: You have been very harsh to the scientists. Prabhupāda: They are misleading. These rascals are misleading. That is the way. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He was very God conscious when he made the atomic bomb. Dr. Patel: How many of us are scientists here? He might help you also. *Prabhupāda: We know real scientist because we know the biggest scientist, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are scientists. Without Him we don't claim to be scientists*-fools, rascals. Ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tathā kim. He is everything. He doesn't require to. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then you become scientist, philosopher. And I was never a scientist, so we challenge the scientists, and I have produced this scientist to challenge them. But I was never a scientist. That book is actually revolutionary amongst the scientists. Scientific Basis, you have read that? Indian man: Yes, I have read. Prabhupāda: Very nicely he has written, very, very nicely, from all scientific... He has challenged the scientists. He has clearly declared, "Darwin is wrong, and scientists, they do not know." Dr. Patel: Now the modern scientists from Russia, they say that there is life on other stars, in other planets. Prabhupāda: Not only that, they are interested in reading our books. We have received letter. We are sending representative. Dr. Patel: That communism is lost now. Prabhupāda: No, communism is lost not. We do not say that you stop anything, but you make the center Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is zero. Zero, if you increase the number of zero, it is always zero. But put Kṛṣṇa or one by the side of zero, it becomes ten, hundred, thousand, lakhs. Dr. Patel: Millions. Prabhupāda: So we... Our propaganda is bring Kṛṣṇa; then your zeros will be valued. Otherwise you are zeros. Dr. Patel: Sir, they were saying that religion is an opium. Prabhupāda: Yes, opium is very good sometimes. He is right. Tincture opium. Yes. Yes. All the drugs are used. You know very well. Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, sir. In heart attack we give that first. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So opium is poison undoubtedly, but if it is in the hand of physician, it is nectarine. It can save the life. Whatever God has created, it has got some use. One must know. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate. That is wanted. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Marx's idea was that instead of trying to improve the condition of life, people would simply go to the church or like this and worship and accept their miserable condition of life without any material progress. Prabhupāda: No, they do not know. Dr. Patel: It is abstract materialism, sir. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Because the very theory of dialectical materialism is against the tenets of religious teachings of sanātana*-dharma. Prabhupāda: No, that... Dr. Patel: The spirit is more important than material. *Prabhupāda: No, their teaching is to become some strong atheist, because religion has been exploited by the so*-called religious leaders. That is the difficulty. So they have become atheist. Dr. Patel: Unless they change their very principle on which they are working. That is why I say we must spread the spiritual communism, sir, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the only way. The other day I talked about the dialectical materialism. That is the crux of the whole communism. Prabhupāda: The communism will be immediately perfect as soon as it is connected with Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: But that is, sir... I mean, our sanātana*-dharma is spiritual communism. That is what we actually try to preach them. Prabhupāda: But you have lost it. You have lost it. Dr. Patel: Yes, we have lost. That is right. And we are gaining it again. The heaven is lost; heaven may be regained. (laughs) What is that, Milton's? Prabhupāda: "Paradise..." Dr. Patel: "Paradise Lost and Gained." Prabhupāda: If you have lost Kṛṣṇa, that is paradise lost. Dr. Patel: Paradise lost, that is. My paradise, everything, is lost. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] And this night I have explained, chanting outside the temple and chanting in the temple, it increases the value thousand times. That I have explained, this evening, this last night. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Chanting in the temple increases the? Prabhupāda: Value. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The value. Prabhupāda: Potency, thousand times. Otherwise, why they are going to the Vṛndāvana? (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Dr. Patel: Sir, what is the difference between mānasī chanting and chanting... Prabhupāda: No, mānasī chanting, that is smaraṇa. That is another thing. But chanting means the tongue must work. That is real chanting. Dr. Patel: But if only tongue works and the mind does not work, it has no value. Prabhupāda: So mind will... You chant loudly, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa"; the mind will come. Dr. Patel: This mind, buddhi, and the jīva in it, all the three must carry on... Prabhupāda: Yes. Then it is real chanting. Dr. Patel: ...with the chanting. *Prabhupāda: You have to practice. You have to practice. Not all of a sudden these three things can be combined so you can become.... It requires practice. Jaya. Abhyāsa*-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā [Bg. 8.8]. You have to practice. Your mind cannot go outside. Then it will be... You have to become the master of your mind. You cannot be dictated by the mind. Then you are victim. There is a verse that "The mind is friend, and mind is enemy. One who can dictate the mind, his mind is friend. And one who is dictated by the mind, his mind is enemy." So we have to learn how to dictate, control the mind. And that is yoga system. Yoga indriya-saṁyama. Dr. Patel: Sir, greatest yoga... Prabhupāda: Greatest yoga is devotee. Dr. Patel: ...to join your mind with God, with Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. If one's mind is always engaged in Kṛṣṇa, then he is the greatest, biggest yogi. *That is first*-class yoga. [break] ...means keep them always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's activities, mind. That is wanted. Dr. Patel: Indriyāṇi pramāthīni haranti prasabhaṁ manaḥ. Prabhupāda: Yes, if your indriyas are engaged in Kṛṣṇa's activities, they are no more pramāthīni; *they are controlled. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam, hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When your indriyas are purified, then it will be only engaged in hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanam. That is bhakti. *Dr. Patel: Rasa*-varjaṁ raso 'py asya paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Unless you have complete, I mean, God consciousness, paraṁ dṛṣṭvā, till then, the rasa does not go, the very sting of your indriyas. So it becomes sort of a vicious circle, sir, and it becomes very difficult to vacate from that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Dr. Patel: By bhakti you can break. Prabhupāda: Bhakti means when you engage all your senses in the service of Hṛṣīkeśa. That is bhakti. But that we cannot. We say, "Oh, I have got this duty, I have got that duty," not cent percent engaged. *Dr. Patel: Ananya*-bhakti. *Prabhupāda: Ananya, that is wanted. When cent percent engaged, that is ananya. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. If one takes to that position, ananya-bhāk, then even there is some mistake, even there is some fault, still, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]*-he becomes sādhu, immediately. [break] Dr. Patel: ...for God, for Kṛṣṇa, is bhakti. Prabhupāda: Yes, under the superior direction, not whimsically. Dr. Patel: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whimsical, you cannot do anything. Dr. Patel: After complete surrender of the buddhi and mind... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: ...all the actions that are done in the service of God is bhakti... Prabhupāda: Yes. When... Dr. Patel: Without surrendering... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: ...the actions are not bhakti. *Prabhupāda: That is the example in the Bhagavad*-gītā. When Arjuna saw that "Kṛṣṇa wants it positively. Never mind my..." Dr. Patel: Then the kariṣye vacanam... Prabhupāda: Yes. That is bhakti. "Never mind, I do not agree with Kṛṣṇa, but I see that He wants it, I must do." This is bhakti. Kṛṣṇa should be given preference. That is bhakti, not my whimsical way. That is not bhakti. And because we cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore Kṛṣṇa is giving direction. Go to the person who has seen actually and take information. Simply by reading you will be misleaded. Even persons like Gandhi or Dr. Radhakrishna, Aurobindo, they were misled because they wanted to manufacture their own meaning. They did not like to act as Kṛṣṇa says. Passerby: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Hm. You are very good devotee. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. So if one offers his namaskāra, that is also taken into account, asset. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Dr. Patel: Dharmasya means that dharma which is affixed to find(?) God is dharma. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. You can understand Kṛṣṇa only by bhakti, not by jñāna, yoga, karma. So a little bhakti will help you to make further progress. It is... No... Now, what is that? "It is never lost." What is that verse? Nehābhikrama*-nāśo 'sti [Bg. 2.40]. *Dr. Patel: Nehābhikrama*-nāśo 'sti. Prabhupāda: Nāśo 'sti. So if you do little, it will remain ever, permanently. Then you will make increase. You'll increase again. Indian (1): As soon as you start chanting, bhakti starts, and then further development is the result of chanting? Prabhupāda: Yes. But if we think that "I am chanting. I can do all nonsense," then it is wrong. *Dr. Patel: First of all, sir, it is the "I*-ness" which must go. And you must surrender your "I" at the sacred feet of... *Prabhupāda: No, no, "I*-ness" is there. If I decide, "I shall not do anything which is not for Kṛṣṇa..." *Dr. Patel: I did not mean that, sir. Your "I*-ness" means your ego must be sacrificed at the feet of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, ego is... Indian (1): How will it go unless the chanting... Dr. Patel: Unless you surrender yourself. Indian (1): Even the chanting will go with that ego. Prabhupāda: Ego, ego is there, but false and right. Dr. Patel: False ego. Prabhupāda: False ego is that "I am Patel. I am Patel" (laughter) And real ego is "I am Kṛṣṇa's servant." Indian (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: This is ego. Indian (1): Real ego. That is the reason. That is the reason. *Prabhupāda: So long I'll think that "I am Patel. I am master of this man..." (Dr. Patel talking simultaneously) (Hindi) People are, I mean to say, entangled with these all upādhis. So therefore bhakti begins when one is upādhi*-less. No more upādhi. Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. That is real ego. *Dr. Patel: That is complete submersion of your ego. Dāsa*-dāsa-dāsānudāsa. I mean, after śarīra... *Prabhupāda: [break] ...mānasa deha geha, yo kichu mora, arpiluṅ tuwā pade, nanda*-kiśora. Nanda-kiśora... (Hindi) Dr. Patel: You hand over the steer of your... Prabhupāda: Yes. The next line is mārobi rākhobi, yo icchā tohārā. (Hindi) This is surrender. Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, that reminds me of a story that I read that one man, one English lord, had gone on a pigeon shooting. I told once this story. And he had got lot of pigeons in a gunny bag, and he would allow one pigeon to go and shoot. One pigeon, instead of flying, fell down at his feet. He could not shoot it. Like that. And this reminds me, this story, always reminds me, this complete surrender. He could not shoot that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: So God will not mara na(?). He will never maro, cannot maro, because you are at His very feet. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He is supplying everything without any surrendering. (Hindi) But that care and outside*-the-jail care, there is little difference. In the prison house, even one is very highly qualified, and if he applies for some good post, he will not be given. He'll not be given. But outside the prison? "Yes, you are qualified. Come on." The same government, the same man, but so long one is criminal, there is no consideration. [break] Yes, regularly I get at one o'clock. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One night Prabhupāda rang the buzzer; *it was twelve*-thirty. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda was translating. Prabhupāda: Yes, sometimes earlier. *Dr. Patel: I get up at three*-thirty. It is not possible to get up at one o'clock. You must not be sleeping... Prabhupāda: Not more than three hours. I go to sleep at ten and I get up at one. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) You get less sleep when... (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, ultimate success is, nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau **, when you can conquer over nidrā, sleeping, āhāra, eating, because animal life means āhāra nidrā bhaya maithuna. And spiritual life means you have to conquer over this. That is spiritual life. (Hindi) In spiritual life... Dr. Patel: You'll have me drinking tea. Prabhupāda: No, everyone, not you. Dr. Patel: I don't. Prabhupāda: Spiritual life means... (Hindi) And Dhruva Mahārāja starved six months, a boy of five years old. It is possible. He did not eat. Simply tapasya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: That jñānī, his wife worshiping... Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Job hai visa. Dr. Patel: No, he had no job. He then searched out a job. In those days, there was no job visas there anywhere. Prabhupāda: No, during Partition [break] ...policy to attract these, all the intelligent class of Indian, to India..., er... Devotee (2): England. Prabhupāda: There is job visa. They gave indiscriminately job visa, so that India will be vacant of all intelligent persons and they cannot make... That was the policy. Dr. Patel: United States are giving also what we call job visa. Prabhupāda: No, not only. Everywhere I have seen. One who is qualified, he gets very easily job in Europe or America, high salary. They get cheaper. Yes. What the Americans will accept for two thousand dollars, Indians will accept at seven hundred dollars. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: When Indians were asked to leave Uganda, the Canadian government offered free passage, but only to persons who had the material qualifications they wanted. Prabhupāda: Yes. Qualified man is very much welcome in foreign countries. I have seen. In Canada, in America, in England, in Germany, everywhere. Because they have got so many jobs, they require so many qualified men. And here where is so many jobs? Dr. Patel: There are so many qualified men, but no jobs. Prabhupāda: No jobs. Dr. Patel: [break] You have to employ yourself, sir, here. Prabhupāda: So many Ph.D.'s, they are loitering. Therefore they become Communists and this, what is called? Naxalites. Educated young boys, they have no job. Dr. Patel: These two parts of India... (Hindi) Bengal and Kerala, they're highly educated communities. They are the, I mean, advanced Communists also, both the countries. In Gujarat there is no communism, though we are educated. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Just like assassin is aside. Prabhupāda: Yes. And otherwise you will find Caitanya and other, so many big, big men. Rabindranath Tagore, Surendranath Bannerjee, Vivekananda, and so on, so on. (Hindi) Aurobindo was condemned to death. Dr. Patel: His brother. Prabhupāda: No, no, he. Dr. Patel: No, sir, I think... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He was condemned to death, then C.R. Das saved him. Then he decided, "This politic has no value. Let me go to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." He dreamed at night, "Why you are bothering with these things?" This is the history. So just after getting off, the judge, immediately left. Dr. Patel: He came back Candranagar(?), to his place. (Hindi) He never came. After svarājya he never came. Prabhupāda: But that is all nonsense. That is... Dr. Patel: [break] ...find fulfillment there only, God consciousness. Prabhupāda: Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. This is the sign of bhakti, that he has no more taste in anything material. That is bhakti. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: And artha. *Prabhupāda: Dharma cannot be. Therefore Bhāgavata said, dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. Dharmārtha-kāma-mokṣa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90]-these are all cheating. These are all cheating. Yes. Dharma means you become... Generally people go to temple to get some material gains: "O God, give us our daily bread." That is the idea. Dharma is to get some material profit. And why material profit? For sense gratification. Dharma, artha, kāma. And when he's baffled in sense gratification, he wants to become one with God, mokṣa. These are all cheating. Therefore Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. And Śrīdhara Swami says, atra mokṣa-vāñchām api nirastam. So long one is stuck up even up to mokṣa-vāñchā, he'll be.... He is in trouble. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Beginning from dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90], you give up everything. Then you'll become purified. Even if you have got mokṣa-vāñchā, then you are in the material world. Yes. Indian (3): Then we get parā bhakti. *Prabhupāda: No. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, *When one is actually in liberated position, mokṣa, brahma*-bhūtaḥ, from that platform bhakti begins. *Dr. Patel: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. He has realized presence of Kṛṣṇa everywhere. Prabhupāda: No, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu means he knows that everyone is spirit soul, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and this body is simply external tabernacle. That is samaḥ sarveṣu. Dr. Patel: Not visualizing the presence of God everywhere? Prabhupāda: Presence of God is there. When God's part and parcel... (Hindi) This is vision. (Hindi) ...ninety million miles away... (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Sir, this one question is asked by many people, that "How God can have aṁśas? He is perfect. He cannot be divided into multiple parts." Prabhupāda: He is not divided. Dr. Patel: That is what I say. Prabhupāda: No, that is foolishness. Dr. Patel: That is what I mean to say. Prabhupāda: No. Just like... It is said, but they are foolish. They cannot understand śāstra. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate [Iso Invocation]. That the rascals, they do not understand. They think materially. Just like this flower. If I take little, little, little, then there is no flower. They are thinking like that. But here is the warning. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam... Even the whole flower is taken, still whole. Dr. Patel: That is God. *Prabhupāda: That is God. They are materially thinking, "If God has bifurcated Himself in so many, everywhere, all*-pervading, then where is God?" This is foolishness. That Kṛṣṇa says, that "Still I am separate." This is wanted. The example is there. Suppose a sunshine is there and throughout the whole universe, and if you say, "Now sun is finished," is sun finished? This is all foolishness. The sun is there; *sun*-god is there. Still, the sunshine is spread all over the universe. Dr. Patel: Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya... Prabhupāda: Pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam... [Iso Invocation] Dr. Patel: ...evāvaśiṣyate. Prabhupāda: He is distributing. This is material thing. He is distributing full light and full temperature for millions and millions of years, he is still the same. If it is possible for a material thing which is creation of God, how much it is possible for the Supreme? Therefore it is said... *Dr. Patel: Because God is present everywhere by His avyakta*-mūrti and He is present in Goloka... Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana. Dr. Patel: In His original. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma*-bhūtaḥ [Bs. 5.37]. This is God. Not that... (Hindi) That is not God. God is in His apartment, at the same time everywhere. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. That is God. (Hindi) Without knowing God, they are becoming God. Dr. Patel: God has made them mūḍhas by His māyā, sir. Prabhupāda: No, no. They have become. They don't want to... Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante [Bg. 7.15]. (Hindi) That is in insisting. (Hindi) Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati. Dharmasya glāniḥ [Bg. 4.7]. means when the people become mūḍha. Dr. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. But He comes to give him intelligence, but he will not take it. He wants that "I shall remain a mūḍha." "All right, you remain." Dr. Patel: Sir, God incarnates for many purposes, not only... Prabhupāda: This is the total... Total purpose is paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: I am going to ask you a bad question... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: ...that if God wanted to destroy the rascals and mūḍhas, He could have done by His finger. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Why does He come here? He comes here... (Hindi) Am I right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: It is not only for killing the... Prabhupāda: Otherwise how He can give contact? Contact. Dr. Patel: He could have done it from there only. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Actually to give him favor. Dr. Patel: To favor the bhaktas, sir. *Prabhupāda: Not only bhaktas, even abhaktas*-by killing them. Yes. Dr. Patel: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also favor. (Hindi) ...immediately. Mukti immediately. All the soldiers and kings who saw Kṛṣṇa in the battlefield, they were all muktas immediately. Yes. Because at the time of death they were seeing Kṛṣṇa, so they become all delivered. Dr. Patel: They got greater benefit than the living people behind. The Pāṇḍavas, they said, that "Those people actually was... They were in presence of Kṛṣṇa. They saw their life by..." Prabhupāda: Svarūpa. Dr. Patel: Svarūpa. Prabhupāda: Svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. That is mukti. When one is situated in his own original, constitutional position, that is called mukti. Svarūpeṇa mukti. Muktir hitvānyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. This is mukti. (end) *Morning Walk-*-April 16, 1976, Bombay *Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja has criticized mauna*-vrata, like that. They have got so.... [break] ...scientists were not perfect in the past, they are not perfect now, and they will continue to remain imperfect. He has written clearly. Dr. Patel: So this, our science, is a science of māyā. Not the science of spirit. Am I right? Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Patel: The science deals with all the earthly things. Prabhupāda: Even an earthly thing, that does not mean you shall commit mistake. Two plus two equal to four, that is earthly thing. But if you make two plus two equal to five... Dr. Patel: One. Prabhupāda: That is not... Dr. Patel: If you make two plus two is equal to one, then that is spiritual. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, no. Apart from spiritual, they are talking and again changing. Sometimes they say two plus two equal to four, sometimes they say two plus two equal to five, and then next they say two plus two equal to three. This is going on. So where is you truth? [break] ...the mūḍhas. Dr. Patel: No, no, no, you are not. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Don't say that. We are mūḍha. *Prabhupāda: No, but because we simply talk of Kṛṣṇa, therefore, although mūḍha, we are not mūḍha. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That's all. Dr. Patel: That's right. I am talking to my scientist friends, sir. That is which medium they move. Prabhupāda: The protons, electrons, and they have not come to any conclusion. They are still dividing. NDA? They have found some NDA? Dr. Patel: Elementary particles. Prabhupāda: No, NDA? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: DNA. Dr. Patel: DNA, that is biochemistry. DNA. (laughs) (Hindi?) This DNA and RNA, these are the special nucleic acids. They actually have the power to procreate new cells. These our Indian..., that, those scientists have.... (laughter) Because I am.... In fact, that company.... I got that bad company just now, this.... So I say "Indian." Very good joke. RNA and DNA are nothing, but we don't know how they work even now. A lot of research is going on. Prabhupāda: Our study should be that these things we cannot explain, but these things are there, so there is a great scientist. That's it. That much understanding is good. You go on analyzing one after another, so you do not come to the final conclusion. But you see actually it is existing, so it has been done by a great scientist. That is wanted. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Guru dāsa: Kṛṣṇa tattva. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...otherwise how things have been arranged like that? Dr. Patel: I said Aryans, not Indians. Prabhupāda: Anyone. We don't say Aryan or Indian, but there is a great scientist who has arranged like that. Dr. Patel: The greatest scientist is Kṛṣṇa, God. You call Him by any other name but He is personally present, as He says. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even the modern scientists do not learn everything by laboratory. They take knowledge from their predecessor. Dr. Patel: But intuition does come. The topmost scientists.... The intuition, then they work on that way. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't become ignorant by themselves. They have lots of help. Dr. Patel: What is ignorance and what is knowledge is very difficult to say. It is a relative terminology. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jñānaṁ jñeyaṁ jñāna*-gamyam. Dr. Patel: That's right so far as the spiritual knowledge is concerned, but in the relative knowledge, after all... Prabhupāda: Relative knowledge is also... *Dr. Patel: Aparā*-vidyā, what is real knowledge, we don't know. Prabhupāda: No? Why not? Dr. Patel: Because every time we change our opinion... Prabhupāda: We know from Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: Now, sir, that is what I said. You are always talking about parā*-vidyā. Prabhupāda: No, no. *Dr. Patel: We are scientist of aparā*-vidyā. *Prabhupāda: Even aparā*-vidyā. Even aparā-vidyā. Kṛṣṇa says, so you have to know it like that. That is Kṛṣṇa's energy... Dr. Patel: And how it is that prakṛti is, I mean, interaction, interaction of... *Prabhupāda: He says, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. That is stated, and also said, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. So therefore that is final. *Dr. Patel: That is why I say, sir, that Albert Einstein used to see mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram. He used to see mayādhyakṣeṇa, God everywhere. In every atom he used to see God. Prabhupāda: That is right conclusion. Dr. Patel: That is Albert Einstein, and that was the grandfather of the modern scientists. So I say the scientists are not as atheist as people think. Abhirāma(?): When Albert Einstein suggested that there must be a supreme universe, then the other scientists began to say that he was crazy. They said, "He has become too old." Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, yes. Abhirāma: Actually they did not believe his theory. Dr. Patel: You are right. I mean, all intelligent men in past used to... Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...scientist. Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. Dr. Patel: But he did not the paripraśnena sevayā. I do it. Prabhupāda: No, he thinks not yet fit to make paripraśna. Dr. Patel: I do it *Prabhupāda: That is. That is scientist. He thinks himself not fit to make any question. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena [Bg. 4.34]. When the praṇipāta is sufficiently mature, then he can make paripraśna*-accompanied by sevā. Otherwise paripraśna is a waste of time. According to our Vedic system, we should not make any question to any person whose answer I cannot accept toto. Then I shall. Otherwise no use of wasting time. Praṇipāta means that you are accepting that "Here I have come. His answer will be complete." No further question. But if there is little doubt, he can submissively make question. Just like Arjuna made question to Kṛṣṇa that "You say millions of years ago You spoke this science to..." Dr. Patel: Vivasvān. Prabhupāda: Yes. "But You are of my age. How I can accept this?" And immediately answer was that "Both of us were present. You have forgotten. I have not forgotten." Bas. Accept it. He did not challenge, "How is that? I have forgotten? You did not forget?" And that is nonsense. That is nonsense. Dr. Patel: Śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam. Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as he questions like that, "How is that You have not forgotten? I have forgotten?" it is not good. Then he is not fit for making question. He should not have made question. [break] ...saw the gosvāmī? Dr. Patel: Have you got them here? Prabhupāda: I think we have got, eh? *Dr. Patel: The Six Gosvāmīs. I just look at him. American scientists don't come to my rescue. [break] (laughs) (Hindi) Our ātmā.... (Hindi) Kuṇape tri*-dhātuke. We are not God conscious, any one of us. Practically hardly for us, small way, perhaps. So we are go-khara, then, in right sense. *Prabhupāda: When he admits that he's a go*-khara, he's not go-khara. *Dr. Patel: He's not go*-khara. *Prabhupāda: He's no more go*-khara. Dr. Patel: Really? (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Because go*-kharas, they cannot understand their mistake. And as soon as one admits that he's mistaken, then he's human being. *Dr. Patel: But this ātma*-dhī in this kuṇape tri-dhātuke is very difficult to knock off and establish it in... Prabhupāda: Hm? *Dr. Patel: This ātma*-dhī and kuṇape tri-dhātuke is very difficult to take out, extremely difficult. Prabhupāda: No, if you analyze, you can take it. Dr. Patel: That is done by Sāṅkhya philosophy. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Dr. Patel: You have to analyze, sir, with Sāṅkhya philosophy, by jñāna*-mārga, that you are not this body. Prabhupāda: Anyway, you analyze. Just like you take breathing. Breathing is taken as the life, breathing. When the breathing is stopped, then there is no life. So analyze this breathing. What is this breathing? It is air. So when breathing is stopped, then you can take air. There are so many persons here. And by some machine you can put within the heart or somewhere. Let the air go on passing. But that is not possible. Therefore immediately the air is rejected. Then take the bone, the muscle. Everything will be rejected. There is no life. So this is analytical study. And then what remains? That soul. Very common thing. Dr. Patel: Kiṁ pariśiṣyate... (Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: Neti neti. "This not soul, this is not soul, this is not soul." Then still, there is the living force. Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. Immediately come to the conclusion. But they have analytical laboratory, but they have no brain how to analyze. They are thinking that because the blood has become white, therefore life has been lost. So is it very difficult to make the secretion within the body red? Dr. Patel: No. Prabhupāda: You can make it red. Dr. Patel: Now, sir, they think the body does not extinct with the stoppage of the heart, but it gets extinct after complete disorganization of the brain or what we call... Prabhupāda: That means mūḍha. You are mūḍha, again mūḍha. Double mūḍha. (laughter) Dr. Patel: Both, they come to mūḍha. Now rascal become... Prabhupāda: Means when he becomes double mūḍha he becomes rascal. (laughter) Single mūḍha is tolerable, and double mūḍha means mūḍha. Double M.A. Double M.A. means double rascal. Dr. Patel: Up to this, sir, heart transplant, I mean, surgery... *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) All mūḍhas. (Hindi) Apareyam. Immediately Kṛṣṇa says, but this rascal will not accept. He immediately says, "This you are analyzing, but these things, these material things*-apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā [Bg. 7.5]. There is another thing." But that they will not accept. Therefore mūḍha. Kṛṣṇa says very clearly, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā. What is that? Jīva-bhūta. That living entity. So clearly said, but they are so mūḍha, they will not accept. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Now it is all right? All right. *Prabhupāda: [break] And Kṛṣṇa is saying, and they still will not believe. Therefore rascal. It is clearly said. After analyzing all this material of the kuṇape tri-dhātuke... This body is a bag of this transformation of kapha pitta vāyu, tri-dhātuke. So this is not life. That is different. Kṛṣṇa says, apareyam itas tu viddhi me. But these rascals will not believe it. Therefore rascals. Very minutely analyze with this material in the body. What is there? The air is there, the blood is there, the muscle is there, the veins are there, the bone is there, the stool is there, the urine is there*-a combination of all these, is that life? *Dr. Patel: No, it is kuṇape tri*-dhātuke, kuṇape. Prabhupāda: Yes. And Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin. In this hodgepodge combination of matter there is the soul. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam... [Bg. 2.13]. On account of this, this body is changing. Kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara prāptiḥ. Very simple thing, but they're so rascal, they will not understand. The whole world is like that. [break] He is speaking Himself. Let us accept it. Every knowledge is there. I am not scientist, but all the scientists come. Our Svarūpa Dāmodara, Doctor, Ph.D., he was defeated three times, four times daily, and then he is now writing book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. You see? And I was not a scientist. He was Ph.D., but I talked on the basis of Kṛṣṇa's assets. That's all. That is my knowledge. [break] ...this knowledge, very practical knowledge, and if we don't accept it, then what is? It is simply rascaldom. No, yes. Yes. Dr. Patel: (laughs) No, but you see, they... Prabhupāda: It is not for you. Kṛṣṇa says that "This is material; this is spiritual. This is superior; this is inferior." He is analyzing. There is no question of.... We have forgotten, therefore He is reminding, but still, we'll not take. That is rascaldom. Dr. Patel: No, but still, we know that.... I mean, we know that this body is not we. We are jīvas. Still, every moment we know; still, we forget to act accordingly. That is what I mean to say, sir. We don't act accordingly. Prabhupāda: No, no. That means the knowledge is not perfect. Yes. Dr. Patel: Sthita prajñā. *Prabhupāda: Everything is explained so nicely in the Bhagavad*-gītā. If you take simply, then you become man of knowledge. *Dr. Patel: Nijam ātmānaṁ brāhmaṇa*-rūpam (?)(Sanskrit) But still, even at that time also, we think of what. That is a misfortune. Prabhupāda: Where? Dr. Patel: People. I also. *Prabhupāda: No, no. A devotee never thinks "I am body." "The body is mine, or body is given to me. So this body is given by Kṛṣṇa. Let this body be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service." Then it is all right. Both the prakṛtis, parā*-prakṛti and aparā, is Kṛṣṇa's. So even if you say that spiritually you can serve, but this is also Kṛṣṇa's prakṛti. You cannot reject the body and simply take the soul. That is not possible. It is now combination. So the body, karmaṇā manasā vācā. So we are not rejecting this body. Why? This is also Kṛṣṇa's. How can I reject it? Kṛṣṇa's things must be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. This is real philosophy. You cannot say, "This is not Kṛṣṇa's." What is not Kṛṣṇa's? Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Indian: These Māyāvādīs reject it, that the body is not... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ, mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgo. The Māyāvādī says the whole material world is false. We do not say that. Indian (2): We say both are right, parā and aparā. *Prabhupāda: We do not say. We say this material world also the energy of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā [Bg. 7.4]. He claims, "It is Mine," so how you can reject it? We cannot say anything Kṛṣṇa's is false. There is some purpose. I give this example, this finger: here is sensation, and here is no sensation. But both of them belongs to my body. Matter means where there is no Kṛṣṇa sensation. That is matter. And as soon as there is Kṛṣṇa sensation, it is spirit. Our Gosvāmīs' formula is that. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Everything has got relation with Kṛṣṇa. So.... Eh? *Dr. Patel: That is the highest fulfillment of prema*-bhakti. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi..., mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgo. Mumukṣubhiḥ, this mokṣa-vāñchā, they said, "It is false." So mumukṣu.... parityāgo phalgu vairāgyaṁ kathyate. It is not real vairāgya. He does not know what is vairāgya. Dr. Patel: Vaiṣṇavas.... Veda gives to take care all your mind, sensation, body, from that... Prabhupāda: Everything Kṛṣṇa's. That... Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa's. That is right. Prabhupāda: Mānasa deha geha yo kichu mora, arpiluṅ tuwā pade. All as soon as it is surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, it is all spiritual. Mahāṁśa: Sanātana Gosvāmī, at first he wanted to commit suicide. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "This body is not yours." *Prabhupāda: Yes. "How you can make suicide? You have already dedicated your body to Me. You have no right." This was the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's.... You cannot neglect it. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's version. When one comes to this understanding, that "Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, everything has emanated from Kṛṣṇa," ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8], "and everything can be used for Kṛṣṇa," then real understanding*-sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. That is wanted. [break] ...1:15. Fifteen minutes late. *Dr. Patel: Brāhma*-muhūrta... (Hindi) I take my bath at three o'clock, so it is all right for me. I'm never falling in all these ways. [break] Prabhupāda: ...give you this foolishness that in other countries they have taken to industry and they are also fully engaged in agriculture. Here the men are taken from the village for industrial work, and the agricultural work suffers. Dr. Patel: Not so in industry. People are idle. It is just like a man having one son, another man having six sons. If the man with six sons works very hard, he is more, I mean, rich than that fellow. But those six boys don't work? Then he goes to hell. Prabhupāda: No, he works. He sees that "In the village I shall get one rupee per day, and if I go to the town I shall get twenty rupees." Dr. Patel: Not that, sir, even that, there is no jobs. Prabhupāda: But he thinks there is job. He leaves. Dr. Patel: Yes, they come here in search of job. Prabhupāda: Yes. They suffer. They live in the huts and very nasty place, still expecting. Dr. Patel: But the highly advanced countries like the States, United States, the agricultural.... I mean, this industry is completely contracted. A percentage the population is getting less and less in agriculture than before. Now hardly ten percent, people are... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa advises... Dr. Patel: Yes, because agriculture, however... Prabhupāda: Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. *Dr. Patel: Even though they have got a lot of machinery and all these things, but still, everything's all.... As, for example, chemical industry. Forty*-paisa worth for ten rupees. Devotees: Jaya! (end) *Morning Walk-*-April 17, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...is real scientist. Those who change every year theory, I don't like that scientist. Do you like that scientist? Dr. Patel: No. Prabhupāda: Then who? Nobody, no gentleman likes that. Dr. Patel: He's not a scientist, who changes himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot change your position. That is science. Kṛṣṇa has said that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. So nobody has become greater than Kṛṣṇa up till now. That is science. Can anyone challenge Kṛṣṇa? No. And He has said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. So that is scientist. Dr. Patel: No, but the scientists try to unearth the secrets of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: Scientists, the modern science, is trying to unearth the secrets of Kṛṣṇa only. Prabhupāda: Trying to? Dr. Patel: Unearth the secret of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's māyā. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's māyā. Dr. Patel: Māyā, we are trying to unearth the secret of Kṛṣṇa's māyā. Those two scientists must come forward, eh? Now he is going to throw a bombshell. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: The difference of each comes in practically two, three Upaniṣads, the one which you have also commented. There is. That happens, the Muṇḍakopaniṣad, the beginning. (Sanskrit) So we are the scientists of the aparā*-vidyā; *you are the scientist of the parā*-vidyā. So we must not have any quarrel. We have divided our sphere of activity. *Prabhupāda: No, there is no quarrel, but we say that these are for the rascals. Yes. Aparā*-vidyā is for the rascals. *Dr. Patel: No, no, even the greatest of the saints, namely, the guru of.... I mean, Śuka(?) Mahārāja, also he had the first aparā*-vidyā. Then parā-vidyā.... Aparā-vidyā is the first step. *Prabhupāda: And so long you are in aparā*-vidyā, you remain a rascal. *Dr. Patel: No, but we always have to put up our step on the aparā*-vidyā. Then you put up your step on the parā-vidyā. You can't jump over it. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No. There is no question of jumping, but things should be realized as it is. Aparā... This is aparā. This is parā. So this is inferior; this is superior. That you have to admit. Dr. Patel: This was the question of Nārada Muni himself in the beginning. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And it is explained about aparā*-vidyā, antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām [Bg. 7.23]. Therefore rascal, alpa-medhasa. Alpa means no brain, no brain. Dr. Patel: They have got those questions of bhakti other than of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: Alpa, alpa... *Prabhupāda: This aparā*-vidyā.... Parā-vidyā means Kṛṣṇa. Parā-vidyā means Kṛṣṇa. So one who.... Unless one comes to the point of Kṛṣṇa, he is in the aparā-vidyā. And aparā-vidyā is meant for the less intelligent class of men. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. Dr. Patel: Then the whole question was, sir, here in Upaniṣad that... *Prabhupāda: Upaniṣad is parā*-vidyā. Dr. Patel: But when, when Muni went... *Prabhupāda: Upaniṣad is the beginning of parā*-vidyā. Dr. Patel: That's right, sir. He said that "What you have learned? Let me know what you have learned. Then I will teach you further on." Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: And they said that... Prabhupāda: To know what is your position, whether still you are foolish or you have become intelligent. That is... Dr. Patel: If he had not become intelligent, he would not have gone there. Prabhupāda: That has to be.... Then... Dr. Patel: That means he had become intelligent. *Prabhupāda: That is all right. That is all right. He has gone to the.... That is pious. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtinaḥ. Anyone who goes to Kṛṣṇa or guru for asking, he is pious. He is not miscreant. Duṣkṛtina. He is not duṣkṛtina. He is pious. Maybe he is in the lower position, but he is pious. That is described. And one who does not go either to Kṛṣṇa or His representative, he is duṣkṛtina, narādhama. This is the difference. One man is suffering from some disease. If he has gone to the physician, he is intelligent. And one who says, "Ha, what is this? I don't care for that," he's a rascal. That's all. Dr. Patel: He must come to me. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who accepts that "I must be treated," he is intelligent. *Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, but parā*-vidyā is meant for the body, aparā-vidyā, I mean to say. Parā-vidyā is meant for the soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: So soul and body has got to live together. So there is a necessity of aparā*-vidyā also to keep your body going. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Parā*-vidyā does not mean to reject the body. *Dr. Patel: Sir, there is a necessity of aparā*-vidyā. *Prabhupāda: No, no. No. That is to make the best use of a bad bargain, how to use the body best to perfect parā*-vidyā. That is intelligence. Just like you have a car. A car is not neglected. We don't kick out car. But it must be used for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Dr. Patel: That is what I say, sir, that you must have the knowledge of car, and that knowledge of car is aparā*-vidyā. Prabhupāda: No. No. No. There is no need of. You have the car, you can go from this place to that place very quickly, so utilize it for Kṛṣṇa conscious. Dr. Patel: They must know how to drive it. That is knowledge. Why do you say no? Prabhupāda: That automatically comes. Dr. Patel: How can automatically? Nothing can come automatically. Prabhupāda: You'll see many drivers. They do not know about mechanics, but very first class driver. Dr. Patel: Well, learning driving is a knowledge of driving. Prabhupāda: Yes, driving, that is... Dr. Patel: Svarūpa(?), why don't you say something? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Many.... Many first*-class owner.... You know. You are a physician. You are not a motor mechanics, but you know how to drive. That is not very difficult thing. *Guru dāsa: Isn't it when you drive for Kṛṣṇa, doesn't it become parā*-vidyā then? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Guru dāsa: When you drive for Kṛṣṇa, doesn't it becomes parā*-vidyā? *Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is done for Kṛṣṇa, that is parā*-vidyā. *Dr. Patel: Anything spoken for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is parā*-vāṇī, and this is parā-vidyā. *Prabhupāda: Vāsudeva*-parā... There is a verse, vāsudeva-parāḥ karma vāsudeva-parā... Like that. *Dr. Patel: Vāsudeva*-parā makhāḥ vāsudeva-parā. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So everything should be for Vāsudeva. And he is first*-class wise man who knows vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā... [Bg. 7.19]. Dr. Patel: Sudurlabhaḥ. Prabhupāda: Yes. But such kind of intelligent person is very rare. Dr. Patel: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], sir, you get actually when you become the real Vaiṣṇava, because then you see the presence of God in every inanimate and animate object. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... Dr. Patel: That is real Vaiṣṇava. Otherwise you are not. *Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Without Vāsudeva, without Kṛṣṇa's order.... Mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10]. Everything is being done under His superintendence. Mayādhyakṣeṇa. Even in the prakṛti, aparā and parā... There are two prakṛtis. So even in aparā*-prakṛti there is superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: I am interrupting you, sir. Mayādhyakṣeṇa sūyate prakṛtiḥ sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Now then, mayādhyakṣeṇa, we want to learn how He adhyakṣa, and that is our vidyā, and that is our aparā*-vidyā. *Prabhupāda: That is parā*-vidyā. Dr. Patel: That is real scientist. *Prabhupāda: That is parā*-vidyā. And don't now, please, say we are... *Prabhupāda: No, no, then don't refer to parā*-vidyā (?). Dr. Patel: We are trying to learn it. Prabhupāda: No, but you defy Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: Do you defy by trying to learn His mayādhyakṣeṇa sūyate prakṛtiḥ sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]? Prabhupāda: No, now scientists say that "Now we are advanced. We don't require God." There is a book. Yes. "We don't require God. Now we shall adjust. We shall create.... We shall create human being according to our necessity." Dr. Patel: You are also scientist. You are on one side. Prabhupāda: You know that? Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, sir. Prabhupāda: They say that "We shall create human being according to our necessity." Dr. Patel: It is not possible to.... Can they create a leaf? Then let them create a human. Prabhupāda: But that.... Therefore we say rascals. Dr. Patel: But then you don't take it, all of us, together. We are four or five of us here. We are next to you. We are none of those. Prabhupāda: Then the same theory that "This side of stool is dry. It is good." (laughter) Yes. Dr. Patel: Because it going to be manure, manure the food. Prabhupāda: "And the other side is moist; therefore it is bad." Dr. Patel: Yes, sir. That type of stool which goes and manures the crop, that is good, evidently. Prabhupāda: No, no, after all, stool, this side or that side.... The whole conclusion is that unless one is surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he remains in darkness. Dr. Patel: That's right. Prabhupāda: That is the point. Therefore we are trying to enlighten people to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Patel: And a scientist trying to unearth the secret of nature means Kṛṣṇa. He is doing work for Kṛṣṇa, and he cannot be... Prabhupāda: No, no, everyone has to work for Kṛṣṇa. Just like a prisoner in the prison house. He is also working for government, but he is forced to do it. Then nobody can escape Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Dr. Patel: Right, sir. But the scientist is not forced to do it. He freely does it. Prabhupāda: No, anyone. Why scientist? Even cats and dogs, they are also doing for Kṛṣṇa. You cannot.... Nobody can say... Dr. Patel: But scientist willingly does it to unearth the secret. Don't call him a rascal. The scientist does it. Prabhupāda: No, I don't say. Kṛṣṇa says. Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa says those people are rascal who does not believe in Him. Prabhupāda: So anyway, that is the test. If you don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, you are rascal. That's all. We are simple child, and Kṛṣṇa has said that anyone who does not surrendered, he's a rascal. So we say, "Are you surrendered to Kṛṣṇa?" "No." "You are a rascal." (laughter) No. Our test is very simple. Dr. Patel: And what do you mean by surrendering, sir? Prabhupāda: He does not know anything but Kṛṣṇa. He knows everything... Dr. Patel: Surrendering means by mental process if I do through my mind. This is my definition. My mental process in the... Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. Patel: Everything happening is.... By Kṛṣṇa's grace he's surrendering to... Prabhupāda: Not mental. No mental concoction. Factual. Factual. Dr. Patel: That is factual. That everything is... Prabhupāda: No, mental concoction is not factual. Dr. Patel: Sir, but I am.... You don't let me speak. I say that everything which is happening, a phenomena, is nothing but by the grace of God or by Kṛṣṇa's own order, and if that... Prabhupāda: And you have no responsibility. Dr. Patel: And that mental process, if you are working, is it a wrong mental process? Prabhupāda: So here is a greatest wrong. No, no. If your patient comes, that "It is by Kṛṣṇa's wish I have become diseased," then where is your department? You don't... Dr. Patel: But by Kṛṣṇa's grace I have become a doctor. Both the ways. Why see on one side? Prabhupāda: Then say that. Why do you say one side? Dr. Patel: Of course, everything is by Kṛṣṇa. The man is diseased by Kṛṣṇa, I am produced by Kṛṣṇa, I'll care by Kṛṣṇa this, that man, and that man dies, he will die by Kṛṣṇa's grace. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Dr. Patel: Then that is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Prabhupāda: Then that is all right. Dr. Patel: That is what I have been saying. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: I think I am not wrong. (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, when in everything you see Kṛṣṇa, that is the highest stage. That is the highest stage. When one sees, he sees this beach, but he does not see beach, he sees Kṛṣṇa. That is the highest stage. Dr. Patel: I was meaning that, but unfortunately my expression was very poor. Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be. Dr. Patel: I am not student of literature like you. Prabhupāda: Nothing can exist.... mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. So everything is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. Where is not Kṛṣṇa? But the Māyāvādī says, "Everything is Kṛṣṇa; therefore let me worship the sand." That is rascaldom. "What is the use of going to the temple? Let me worship the sand." That is rascaldom. Kṛṣṇa says clearly, therefore, Dr. Patel: Na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ means no more important.(?) Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: So I look a fool and they'll become wise, all of them, eh? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You are wise. Dr. Patel: They want that I should say something, and then you call me a rascal, and they take pleasure in it. *Guru dāsa: No, no. Para*-duḥkhī. Dr. Patel: No, no, no. I say all right... Guru dāsa: Vaiṣṇava is not happy in someone else's misery. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...possible if you remain with the devotees. (Hindi) ...nondevotees' association. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvido, bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ [SB 3.25.25]. Satāṁ prasaṅgāt. Amongst devotees if you remain, then Kṛṣṇa-kathā will be so pleasing, rasāyanāḥ kathā, rasāyana. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, *Dr. Patel: The sat*-saṅga. *Prabhupāda: Yes, sat*-saṅga. *Dr. Patel: Is satāṁ saṅga? It is sat*-saṅga. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Even good literature saṅga is also sat*-saṅga, is it not? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. *Dr. Patel: So I am.... In the morning I do your sat*-saṅga, and afterwards I do the sat-saṅga of Bhāgavata and Bhagavad-gītā. So it is a continuous sat-saṅga. So don't say I am not doing it. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, no, you are not.... I don't say that you are rascal. *Dr. Patel: No, about sat*-saṅga. Prabhupāda: Rather, I think myself rascal because.... (laughter) *Dr. Patel: I say about sat*-saṅga. Let us turn the issue. Prabhupāda: I could not draw you in my temple. Dr. Patel: You have drawn me lot, but still, you are dragging me by leg nowadays. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Into our hospital. Indian: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: I think I am not fit to be with you, so far I consider myself. Prabhupāda: Everyone is. *Dr. Patel: I must correct myself and all my defects. Otherwise I would pollute you. [break] (laughter) I will become after sixty*-five. Prabhupāda: You are fifteen years late already. (laughter) Dr. Patel: I must follow you. How much late you were? I will come after you. [break] ...you think sir, that is more important than... Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. Patel: You must have the clothing in the internal side. *Prabhupāda: No, clothing is.... Anāśritaḥ karma*-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ ...sa sannyāsī [Bg. 6.1]. It is not the clothing. Clothing is not.... Sa ...yogī ca na niragnir na cākriyaḥ. (Hindi) And continually doing that mahā-pāpa. [break] ...narādhama. *Dr. Patel: Because they are māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. Prabhupāda: Yes. It means they have no knowledge. Dr. Patel: Māyā has taken away their vision, their sense of understanding, sense of.... What do you call, sense of understanding or sense of...? Prabhupāda: Sense of reality. Dr. Patel: Reality. I was trying to say that word, reality. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ [Bg. 7.15]. But today the whole world is practically asura. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...is a word declared to the asuras. You see? Therefore everyone is our enemy. Nobody likes us, because a declaration of war against the asura... And we are fighting with some tiny soldiers, that's all. And they are very strong. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you. Jaya. [break] ...we don't want who says that "Why you are searching after God? The gods are loitering in the street." Of course, it is in higher sense, but you cannot say respectively(?), "Everyone is God." Maybe.... (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Now we must not.... (Hindi) Prabhupāda: That very word suggests that he is not to that stage where he can see Nārāyaṇa everywhere. Dr. Patel: That is the highest statement of a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: [break] ...therefore there is character. Just like there are some terpinoids(?) or some, so many. If little change is there, immediately the color changes, the flavor change. And who adjusted? Dr. Patel: There they find Kṛṣṇa, sir. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: That has been.... I was already telling you, that three colors... Prabhupāda: No, no. They say that "Now we are scientists. We do not require God." Yes. Dr. Patel: They are putting, I mean.... The putting of a small leaf in a hydrocarbon.... You can't put it from that. To that step we have come in biochemistry or chemistry. Prabhupāda: Therefore they should admit who has adjusted it. Then who has adjusted like this, so that the color, the flavor, everything is maintained standard? That is real scientist. Dr. Patel: Svabhāva hatu pravar.(?) Prabhupāda: Yes. Svabhāva means prakṛti. So mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛti [Bg. 9.10]. Dr. Patel: So under His guidance. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So matter cannot work. Yasyājñayā... There is a verse in the Brahma*-saṁhitā. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti.... Svabhāva is Durgā. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā, icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā [Bs. 5.44]. By His desire. Dr. Patel: No, sir, He desired and said, "Let Me be many," and He became many. So by desire the whole cosmos has come into existence. So by desire the colors change. Prabhupāda: Even there.... Coconut trees, there are varieties. One tree is standing like this; one is standing like this. Varieties. Dr. Patel: But then one thing, eko bahū... Everything that is..., the Vaiṣṇava fulfillment. Prabhupāda: No, Vaiṣṇava accepts the varieties. Dr. Patel: He accept the variety but he sees in Him everywhere. Prabhupāda: No. Variety is everywhere. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Recording of TV Interview-*-April 20, 1976, Melbourne *Interviewer (1): ...were minstrels who wander who wander our city streets, mumbling about Hare Kṛṣṇa, then the man to answer your questions is the man who started the Kṛṣṇa movement, His Divine Grace Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. And if you have trouble following that, the best is yet to come. His message might seem complicated to the unconverted, but when it's all boiled down, it's quite simple. All you have to do is concentrate, like Carol Jarvis did during this in*-depth interview. (sound of kīrtana) Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, what prompted you to start the Kṛṣṇa movement? (From here on follow excerpts of Interview, Melbourne, 4/20/76, combined with short, loud recordings of kīrtanas) Prabhupāda: Well, the scientists make research. One does wrong thing to do that. So our process is to carry out the order of the higher authorities. So my Guru Mahārāja, my spiritual master, asked me to do this. (inserted kīrtana) *Carol Jarvis: But you led a rather normal life*-before this you were married. You were a businessman. Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: What made you change suddenly? Prabhupāda: By this association. Just like we are holding meeting, and so many boys, girls, they come. If somebody is capturing the idea, he makes further progress. (inserted kīrtana) Carol Jarvis: Do you think the type of life that your devotees must lead... Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: ...is in fact a happy one, getting up very early in the morning... Prabhupāda: Yes, it is. It is. Just like if you are suffering from some ailments, so you have to follow some rules and regulation so that you may be cured. (inserted kīrtana) Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, can I ask you how old you are now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: How old? Prabhupāda: I am eighty years old. (inserted kīrtana) Carol Jarvis: Do you make a lot of money out of the sales of your books, etc.? There is begging in the street each day. Prabhupāda: Yes. But there are many beggars. They do not get money. We get money. We are not beggars. We are giving books, knowledge. (inserted kīrtana) Carol Jarvis: I wonder if I could ask you just finally, then, if you have a message. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the message, that people are under the impression that one is this body, but that is not the fact. The soul, or the man, he is within the body. Just like you are not your, this shirt and coat. (inserted kīrtana) Interviewer (1): That was Carol Jarvis with the leader of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, a man with a message, and we hope you've taken note. Well, we'll be back in a moment, and this time with a surprise.... (end) *Room Conversation-*-April 20, 1976, Melbourne Prabhupāda: But still, he did it. Arjuna, in the beginning, thought that he should not kill. Come on. Devotee (1): He's ready downstairs. [break] Prabhupāda: ...can you think about the living pulse which is beating, the heart, heart failure? Why don't you bring it into palpitation again? If you study that air.... You are.... Air you bring artificially. Push it. Why don't you do it if you are so great scientist? Is it very difficult? So in anything, air is fi.... Just like in the tire tube. Air is finished. Push it, air. It is all right. So do you think it is air, the palpitation? You are so foolish? And passing as a scientist. Air can be replaced. It is difficult? Just like tire tube air, a huge quantity to work. You immediately, within a second.... So why do you say, "Now, now the breathing is stopped." Breathing is stopped, air stopped. What is their answer? Hm? *Guru*-kṛpā: They have no answer. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The cells have died. Prabhupāda: Seller? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tiny cells in the body have died. Prabhupāda: Then don't say that "Breathing is stopped. Therefore he is dead." Don't talk nonsense. Why do you talk like that, "Now breathing is stopped. He's dead"? Talk in right language if you are scientist. Why you are talking like that, "The air is stopped. The breathing is stopped. Therefore dead"? That's not a fact. So you are stating which is not a fact. Why you claim that you are scientist? That is the challenge. Hm? Then again you come to the blood. What is blood? Red water. So if you say that this, that, so many jugglery of words, so manufacture. Water mix with the red color and give these, these so many rascal things. *Guru*-kṛpā: They don't have artificial blood. I don't think they can make artificial blood. Prabhupāda: Nothing. Artificial blood.... Superficially it is red water. So if red water is the life, then why you are spoiling so much blood? Keep it scientifically and push it into the dead body. I say it is, that way, it is the red water, nothing but red water. Urine is white water. I am coming to the five elements, air, water.... Then what is this bone? Earth. You can manufacture bone, hard bone, with earth or wood or something plastic. So we are analyzing the combination of the body, so everything you can manufacture. But where is the life you can manufacture? Why do you say? That is our challenge. All the ingredients of the body you can manufacture exactly like that. Ultimately you can give the beauty also of the woman or the man. But where is life? Bring life by all these things. Then I will say that you are scientist. Otherwise cheater, simply bluffing people. This thing should be stopped. Where you get the information that this, from matter life is possible. "In future." But in future.... In inceptive condition you show something. Just like formerly they were flying balloons. So because they were flying, they could say that "Future we shall fly a big city." And in the history we can see that that is not impossible, because in the inceptive condition or initiative condition we see that big things can be flown. But here you cannot even prepare an ant. You have not been able to prepare even a small ant, germ. Show me. So why do you say, "In future I shall do it"? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of these creature don't even have hearts. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of the insects don't even have hearts. Prabhupāda: And how do you say? They have everything. You have no intelligence to understand. Everything, all anatomic physiology is there, even the small full stop. You cannot see even, microbe. That is God's creation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mean to say... Prabhupāda: I have seen very minute, walking very..., exactly like a big... *Guru*-kṛpā: In Vṛndāvana, when we were staying at Bon's place, there was big colony of ants. Ants, thousands of them. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got all the sense, all the sympathy. For eating, sleeping, mating, they have got all intelligence. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What I mean to say is, physiologically speaking, at least from biological viewpoint, some of these creatures don't even have hearts. They're much easier to manufacture, the parts of their bodies. *Prabhupāda: You say there is no heart just like you say no soul. That is your vers.... I say that "When he is doing everything like a human being he has got everything." It is your insufficient knowledge that you say that.... Just like you say there is no soul. But that is your insufficient knowledge. That's not the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna [Bg. 18.61]. When Īśvara is in everyone's heart, how you can.... Hṛd-deśe. How you say there is no heart? That is nonsense, another nonsense. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So this is speaking of the material heart. Prabhupāda: Material, spiritual, you do not know anything. You don't talk. Better you become silent. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe, specifically said, "within the heart." The.... Even a germlike, what is called, atom, less than atom, there is heart. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, hṛd-deśe? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe. Every living entity. Prabhupāda: Eh? And you say there is no.... You are our student. You are saying there is no heart. That means you do not carefully read. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, that's there, but is that the heart of the soul or the heart of the gross material body? Prabhupāda: Then.... Heart there is, as you have got heart. What you are? The same constitution. Hariśauri: In the Kaṭha Upaniṣad it describes how they're sitting side by side. Prabhupāda: The same constitution of the body. Otherwise there is no question of heart. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You've just challenged the whole field of biology also. *Prabhupāda: Then what is the.... I say they're nonsense, rascals. They say that there is no.... And what is their knowledge? We don't give any value to their knowledge. Kṛṣṇa says clearly, hṛd*-deśe 'rjuna. And this body is just like a yantra, machine. So as machine means, moving machine means it must have wheel, it must have sitting place.... Everything is there, machine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would mean that even the plants and trees also have a heart. Prabhupāda: Everything. That is proved scientifically. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved. There is a part(?). What is that? Spi...? Begins the word, the machine, the record? Devotee (2): Spirograph. Prabhupāda: Yes, the word begins with s. Spirograph or like that. You do not know? They smear with black, what is called, carbon, and the fine... Devotee 2: Cardiograph. Prabhupāda: Cardiograph, like that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cardiograph. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sensation. Prabhupāda: No, no, the machine is called some special name. Hariśauri: The same idea as cardiograph. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Spectograph? Prabhupāda: Spectograph, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Has to do with light? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it records how it is moving, how it is going up and down. So that has been proved. The machine is hanged in the tree, and the tree is cut, and immediately makes a mark. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has discovered the machine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Generally at least, though, we associate the heart with an organ that simply pumps blood and oxygen throughout the body, but the biologists contend that certain bodies and certain species of life have no such circulatory system, pumping blood or even oxygen. Prabhupāda: Why not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, that's the contention at present. Prabhupāda: Hm. But we can take that... *Guru*-kṛpā: Like a worm. If you cut a worm in half, both parts of the worm will go on living. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Guru*-kṛpā: You take one worm, you cut it, and both parts will go on living. You cut it in three places, and it will all live. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the wrong there? *Guru*-kṛpā: Then there's three hearts? Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately manufactured as soon as the living enters. Their chemical composition is that, that even you cut a living entity, he can enter. The living entity enters through the semina of the father in the womb of the mother, the same process. Unless the living entity enters, the body does not form. It is matter only. When the living entity enters, then the formation takes place according to his mind. What do they know about it? Hm? Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. The matter simply is set up according to the desire. Just like we have constructed this big house according to my desire. The matter has not taken shape like this big house automatically. I am the proprietor. I desire: "Let the rooms be like this." Similarly, the material elements, the semina of the father and the ova of the mother, mix. It creates a suitable, what is called, cement, and now, according to the desire of the living being, he'll settle. Not that the cement automatically becomes a room or pipe or this or that. Cement is cement, the same thing, earth, water, air, fire. By mixture it becomes so convenient that it takes a shape and becomes a different body, a different body for the man, a different body for the animal.... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you. Mike Barron: A little crooked. Jaya. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Thank you. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Mike Barron. He is from one of the television stations here, and he wants to do an interview on you for the news tonight, which is seen by many, many thousands of people here at home. Prabhupāda: You have seen this news? Mike Barron: Yes, I've seen this morning's. Fairly similar, just to talk about the movement. Are you happy with the way it's going here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mike Barron: Just along those lines. *Guru*-kṛpā: What do you think of that article? Mike Barron: A bit facetious. A bit facetious. I didn't like it very much. Prabhupāda: You liked? Mike Barron: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Mike Barron: Er, a bit facetious. They had a funny way of doing it. Prabhupāda: Funny way, but it is very serious. It requires little intelligence... Devotee (3): Like to sit there? Prabhupāda: ...that this body is a lump of matter, and the consciousness, or the living pulse, that is different. Can you prove that they are not? Eh? Mike Barron: No. Prabhupāda: Then how do you say it is joking? Mike Barron: Er, no, I.... The actual context. Prabhupāda: The context is that if you cannot separate the living force, or the soul, from the body, then you are on the same position as the dog is thinking, "I am the body. I am a big dog. I can bark very loudly." And he's showing his capacity. And if we are talking big, big assembly, and in the same conception of life, that "I am this body," then where is difference? Mike Barron: I cannot argue against that. Prabhupāda: That is the point. That is the point. We have to understand this point. If we want to become more than the dog, you must find out in which sense we are more than the dog. That sense is understanding.... That is.... In Sanskrit word it is said, ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman. I am not this matter." That is knowledge. Actually knowledge begins from that point, that "I am not this body." Just like a big 747 plane is running on, but there is the intelligent pilot. If somebody says, "There is no pilot. It is flying automatically. The machine is supported," is it a correct? Mike Barron: No. Does Kṛṣṇa consciousness make you aware of this, though? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one understands that this big machine is useless without the pilot. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Mike Barron: How long.... It's hard to say. How long does it take for... Prabhupāda: It takes immediately, provided a man is intelligent. Just like the same principle: If a man is intelligent, he can immediately understand that the machine is not important; the pilot is important. Mike Barron: The same with the body... Prabhupāda: Yes. If you take this body as everything, then analyze part by part. Just I was talking about breathing. People generally say, "The breathing is stopped; therefore the man is dead." And that can be replaced, breathing. Breathing? What is this breathing? It is simply air. Just like in tire tube, when the air is lost, you can immediately replace it and take it into work. Similarly, if breathing is lost, therefore the man is.... You can replace it. You are big, big scientist. You replace it. Just find out some machine which will "Hans! Phans!" just like bellows. That's not possible. Mike Barron: Can you become aware of this without Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Can you without... Prabhupāda: No, that awareness means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We can describe it in different language, but the real thing is that we must be aware of this thing. Mike Barron: So your teachings go much further than just being part of the Kṛṣṇa movement. Everyone, whether they like it or not, are indirectly concerned with it. Prabhupāda: The.... Our movement is an educative movement to understand the real position of living condition, and then we act. Just like if you know your real position, then, if you act intelligently, then it is nice. If you do not know what is your position, what is the use of your education and acting? You do not know your real position. That is ignorance. And that is dog mentality. The dog cannot understand that he is not body; he is something else. But human intelligence is advanced. If they do not try to understand this fact, then what is the difference between him and dog? Mike Barron: None. Prabhupāda: That is being misused. There is no institution, no university, no education system, to understand what is that living force, without which it is a lump of matter. Where is that education? Mike Barron: What do you call that force? Prabhupāda: That is the soul, or consciousness. The same thing, the pilot. The pilot may be a small man, and the airship may be very gigantic. You can make still more. But the pilot is the same. So the body may be elephant or a small ant, but the pilot is the same. That is real understanding. Mike Barron: Just getting off that, can I ask why you've come to Australia again? Prabhupāda: I have already explained that, that this is my mission, to educate people to understand himself. They are under this misconception that "Every one of us, we are this body." That is misconception. You must know who is within the body. That is real education. Mike Barron: And how long.... You'll continue this until... Prabhupāda: Well... Mike Barron: ...until you die. *Prabhupāda: The knowledge is already there in the Vedic literature, but there was no discussion, at least in the Western countries. So I am trying to.... We have got so many books, eighty*-four books, writing on this science. (aside:) Show him our books. They are being accepted by high learned circle. [break] ...written not jokingly. It is a great science. Mike Barron: Where do you.... You might think this unusual. Where does it come from, though? Prabhupāda: The *Vedas*, Vedic literature. Mike Barron: What goes into this? *Prabhupāda: Vedas. Vedic literature, Sāma, Yajur, Ṛk, Atharva, Upaniṣad, then Bhāgavata, Bhagavad*-gītā, so many. There is no cultivation of this knowledge. Devotee (3): If we could.... If we put the stool up here, and then you can sit on facing that way, Mike? Mike Barron: Hmm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'll do it. Prabhupāda: How people are advanced? They should take very seriously. Devotee (3): So he can sit and face that way. *Guru*-kṛpā: Maybe you can take one picture of our books when you go. Mike Barron: Yes, well, due to problems that do occur from time to time, we.... You know, what people consider to be the false guru, is that all right with you? Prabhupāda: Yes, any.... Guru means the teacher. So if the teacher does not give you real knowledge, then he is not teacher. He is cheater. Mike Barron: And there are some around. Prabhupāda: Almost everyone, because they do not know what is the subject matter of teaching. The subject matter of teaching is beginning with this understanding, that life is different from matter. That is the beginning, ABCD. So if your basic knowledge is wrong, then what is the use of going further? It is all false knowledge. Mike Barron: So there are a lot of these people who do that, false knowledge? Prabhupāda: That is.... That you have to consider, that it is a fact. And the yoga system is meant.... This is the real yoga system, that because we are on the false understanding, identifying with the body, so the bodily function should be controlled, and concentration or focus should be placed: "What is that living condition?" That is yoga or meditation, to find out what is the real.... Analyze this body and find out where is the living pulse. And that is real yoga system, to control the senses. The senses are working. Now we are getting knowledge through the senses. How to get this knowledge of the living force? That, a mechanical arrangement, that is called yoga system. Cameraman(?): Somebody move up. *Mike Barron: Yes. Do you have a two*-shot, or do you want to get that afterwards? Cameraman: Yeah, I'll get to that. You're going to have to keep my front out as much as you can. Don't.... (talks about filming) Mike Barron: Can you tell us a little bit about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what it does mean? Prabhupāda: Just like the living force within the body, that is the most important thing, similarly, throughout this creation, cosmic manifestation, Kṛṣṇa is the most important thing. Mike Barron: Are you happy with the way the Kṛṣṇa movement is progressing throughout the world and particularly throughout Australia? Prabhupāda: Well, we are progressing very slow because the subject matter is so difficult that even big, big scientists, big, big professors, they are puzzled. So you cannot expect. But those who are fortunate and.... They are understanding. So this progress, we cannot expect a mass people will understand immediately, but if one person understands, he can act very tremendously to educate the people on this matter. Just like the example is that to illuminate the sky it does not require millions of stars. One moon is sufficient. Mike Barron: What is the biggest obstacle for people to overcome? Prabhupāda: Their dullness. They are not being educated, but they are putting into the darkness of ignorance more and more. That is going on in the name of education. Mike Barron: But some people are confused by the number of false gurus. Prabhupāda: So why you bring guru? You try to understand yourself. If you are fool, then what guru will do? Mike Barron: But there are people... Prabhupāda: You should be intelligent. You should know that what is the subject matter of knowledge. Why do you accept so many fools and rascals as guru? First of all you know what is the subject matter of knowledge. Just like if you want to become a carpenter, you should go to an expert carpenter. If you want to be a medical man, here, if you want to become medical man, you must approach the medical college. So first of all, what do you want? You do not know what you want. Therefore you get so many cheaters. You do not know what you want. Mike Barron: You do agree that there are many people who do try and cheat? Prabhupāda: No, first of all you agree that there is someone who cheats. First of all you agree that you do not know what is the aim of your life. Do you agree or not? Mike Barron: I think I know. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mike Barron: I think I know. Prabhupāda: You know? What is the aim? Tell me. What is the aim of human life? Tell me. We shall accept you as guru. Tell me. What is the aim of life? Mike Barron: To be happy in myself. Prabhupāda: That, how dog is happy? Therefore I have said "dog mentality." You do not know what is happiness. You know simply by barking you'll be happy. That's all. Mike Barron: Well, how do I find out? Prabhupāda: No, what is happiness? Do you know what is happiness? Mike Barron: Perhaps not. How do I find out that? Prabhupāda: Find out.... But then why you are asking about guru? You do not know what is happiness. Mike Barron: Can you tell me? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Your happiness is that you do not like to die: you die. That is your distress. You do not like to become old man: you become old. So that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. This is unhappiness. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. That is intelligence, that "I do not want death. Why death comes upon me? Where is my happiness?" This knowledge will lead you to understand what is happiness. But if you remain ignorant like animal, you do not know what is happiness, and if you think, "The dog is having sex. I'll have sex. That is happiness," then where is the difference, dog mentality and your mentality? Mike Barron: And Kṛṣṇa consciousness can help me attain this? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He knows, "This dog's mentality of eating, sleeping, sex and defense is not my happiness. My real distress is that I do not want to die; I am being forced to die. So how to escape from this position?" That is happiness. Mike Barron: Thank you. *Guru*-kṛpā: Jaya Prabhupāda. Mike Barron: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Devotee (3): ...which is a topic on which they interview many personalities like yourself. And this is showing at seven o'clock tonight on television. There'll be many, many people watching it. Prabhupāda: Take that book. Take his book. No, I.... (tape of Prabhupāda plays in background, laughter) Mike Barron: I'll think about that. Prabhupāda: That is the lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (background talking, commotion) [break] Sixty, seventy, and another, small books. Sixty books like this. Hariśauri: She's asking how many do we sell. Prabhupāda: Sell? That I have given, estimate. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With our standing orders we sell them all. Carol Jarvis (Woman Interviewer): Oh, no, I mean, how many do you sell a day? For instance, how many of each book would you sell a day? Would it be thousands a day? *Guru*-kṛpā: Yeah, maybe. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, sometimes tens of thousands. Prabhupāda: Twenty thousand dollar daily. *Guru*-kṛpā: Minimum. Prabhupāda: Minimum. Sometimes we go to fifty thousand dollars. Carol Jarvis: A day? Prabhupāda: Day. All over the world. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Devotees are working very hard to spread this consciousness, knowledge. (background talking) Prabhupāda: Religious book, selling daily so much, huge amount, that is unique in the history. Carol Jarvis: Are they sold mainly in the Western countries? Prabhupāda: All over the world. Especially in Europe, America. Hariśauri: We even had some book orders just recently from Russia. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are also inquiring. *Guru*-kṛpā: Every university in America takes complete book. Every book Śrīla Prabhupāda writes, there is standing order. Oxford, Princeton, Harvard, UCLA, University of California... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of the leading professors also have written very favorable reviews, citing these... Prabhupāda: Where is that book, Professor Judah's book? Hare Krishna and Counterculture. Carol Jarvis: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: You have read that? Carol Jarvis: No, I haven't. Prabhupāda: Oh, he has written big book, Professor Judah. He has very much appreciated. And he has given statistics and everything, very scholarly book. Hare Krishna and Counterculture. *Carol Jarvis: Ah, yes. Yes, I have read it. (background conversation*-about filming? Machine makes whirring sound) Prabhupāda: It is breathing? (more background conversation, machines whirring, etc.) Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, what prompted you to start the Kṛṣṇa movement? Prabhupāda: Well, the scientists make research. One does wrong thing to do that. So our process is to carry out the order of the higher authorities. So my Guru Mahārāja, my spiritual master, asked me to do this. Therefore... *Carol Jarvis: But you led a rather normal life*-before this you were married. You were a businessman. Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: What made you change suddenly? Prabhupāda: By this association. Just like we are holding meeting, and so many boys, girls, they come. If somebody is capturing the idea, he makes further progress. Carol Jarvis: What was it that was different about your way of thinking? Prabhupāda: It is not my way of thinking; it is nobody's way of thinking; it is the natural way of life. Just like you eat. It is not a way of thinking. It is natural demand of the body. Carol Jarvis: Well, why is it, can I ask, perhaps, that the Kṛṣṇa movement is the natural way of living against, say, other religions, other faiths? Prabhupāda: It is not the question of religion or faith. It is the necessity. This already I have said, that you are hungry, and you require some food. It is not a way of thinking, that "I am hungry. I require..." It is the urge. You are hungry, and you require to eat. Similarly, people are making so many arrangements to become happy. So this is also another way, but this is the right way. Carol Jarvis: You have now thousands and thousands of devotees all around the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: A lot of them are very young people coming into the movement. Do you think they really understand what they're going into when they join the Kṛṣṇa movement? Prabhupāda: So if, if.... At least they understand something about it. Otherwise how they are sticking to this movement? They are intelligent boys. They are coming from respectable family, educated. Why they should go after me unless they have got something? That you can ask them. There are so many. All of them are young men. Carol Jarvis: They're forced to lead a very spartan way of life, though, aren't they? Why is this necessary? *Prabhupāda: If you want real happiness.... That I have already explained. Real happiness*-to become free from the natural material laws, birth, death, old age and disease. This is real happiness. Suppose you are arranging for your happiness, and all of a sudden death comes. Then where is happiness? So how you can check? So the real impediment of our happiness is stated: birth, death, old age and disease. So if you want real happiness, then you have to first of all make arrangement that you'll not die or you'll not take birth, you'll not become old, you'll not be diseased. Just like insurance. They make insurance of life. So where is your insurance for these things? You do not want to die, but you are forced to die. Where is insurance? This is insurance, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Carol Jarvis: Insurance for what? Prabhupāda: No more.... No more death, no more birth, no more old age, no more disease. This is insurance. And therefore it is the primary necessity for becoming happy. Otherwise you have made arrangement very nicely, and if all of a sudden you die, then where is your happiness? Carol Jarvis: Do you think the type of life that your devotees must lead... Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: ...is in fact a happy one, getting up very early in the morning... Prabhupāda: Yes, it is. It is. Just like if you are suffering from some ailments, so you have to follow some rules and regulation so that you may be cured. Do the doctor not prescribe so many things, that "You don't eat like this. You don't do this. You do this"? There are so many don't's and do's. So if you really want to become happy, you have to follow some don't's and do's. Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, can I ask you how old you are now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: How old? Prabhupāda: I am eighty years old. Carol Jarvis: And do you think the Kṛṣṇa movement has helped you? Are you a fit man for an eighty year old? Prabhupāda: At least all my contemporaries have gone away. (laughter) All my young friends and childhood friends, there are no more existing, my relatives. And.... So I am moving still all over the world. Carol Jarvis: Can you see an age that you could live until? Could you predict how long you might live? Prabhupāda: No, if.... You see, this body is so made that it must end, but before ending, you must be competently Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then, next life, you become permanent in life, in knowledge, in blissfulness. That is required. Carol Jarvis: Many people find it very difficult to reconcile the spiritual way of life in the Kṛṣṇa movement with the great financial resources the movement also has. Why do you need any great financial...? Prabhupāda: It doesn't.... The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement does not depend on any material condition, any material condition. Carol Jarvis: But you make a lot of money out of the sales of your books, etc.; there is begging in the street each day. Prabhupāda: Yes. But there are many beggars. They do not get money. We get money. We are not beggars. We are giving books, knowledge. Do you think we are beggars? Carol Jarvis: If I could use the example, perhaps, of your temple, which has a lot of very rich material things in it. I wonder what significance that plays in your spiritual life. Prabhupāda: So what do you mean by spiritual and material? Do you know the distinction? Then I'll show you spiritual. And do you know? Carol Jarvis: Well, the material... Prabhupāda: I say that in the temple there is nothing material, all spiritual, but you have no eyes to see to it. Carol Jarvis: I wonder if you could lead an equal sort of life without the richness of the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do. You can live at your home like us. We are giving the example. You can live also like that. That is spiritual life. If you follow the same rules and regulation and live like that, that is spiritual life. Carol Jarvis: You told me earlier that you make thousands of dollars a day... Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: ...out of the sales of your books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: If you want your thoughts to be passed on to other people, why do you sell the books and make money out of them? Prabhupāda: Otherwise you'll not read it. If I give you free, then you'll think, "Ah, this is something nonsense. They are giving free." Carol Jarvis: Not necessarily give them free, but perhaps sell them for a price that pays for the cost of producing them. Prabhupāda: So when they pay for it.... When they pay for it, they will try to see "What these books are saying? Let me see." And if you get free, then you may keep it in your rack for hundreds of years. So that is not the.... But after all, we have to print these books, so who will pay for that? We have no money. Carol Jarvis: Well, what happens to the rest of the money, though, that is collected in the streets? Prabhupāda: We are increasing our movement. We are opening centers. We are printing more books. This is my books. I have made a Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. That is my will, and I have given my will that fifty percent of the collection should be spent for reprinting the books and fifty percent should be spent for spreading the movement. So there is no question of material profit. Carol Jarvis: I wonder if I could ask you just finally, then, if you have a message. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the message, that people are under the impression that one is this body, but that is not the fact. The soul, or the man, he is within the body. Just like you are not your, this shirt and coat. You are within the shirt and coat. Similarly, the living entity, the living being, is within this body, the gross body and the subtle body. The subtle body is composed of mind, intelligence and ego, and the gross body is a composition of these material things, earth, water, air, fire, like that, five elements. Altogether, eight elements. This is inferior energy. And the superior energy is within these eight elements, five gross and three subtle. So we have to study about that thing. Just like I asked that boy that "You can manufacture a huge machine, flying in the sky, 747, but why don't you manufacture the pilot?" Carol Jarvis: Thank you. (background conversation about filming, recording) Prabhupāda: So that is intelligence, that if in spite of your manufacturing such a huge machine, without the help of a pilot you cannot fly it. Carol Jarvis: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: So why don't you manufacture pilot? Carol Jarvis: Probably someday they may. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. That is nonsense. Carol Jarvis: At the moment we're just taking some photographs. *Prabhupāda: No, at the.... You talk at the moment, sir. You don't give me post*-dated check that "In future I shall be millionaire. Now you take a check of million or..." Shall I accept it? Carol Jarvis: No, at the moment we're just taking some photographs. We can't let you talk at the moment. You're supposedly listening to my questions. Prabhupāda: All right. Carol Jarvis: So for the moment I'll pretend to be asking you some questions for the purposes of cutting the interview. Prabhupāda: No, you note down that we are asking that you are so expert in manufacturing big, big machine. Why not manufacture a pilot? That is my question. Carol Jarvis: As I just said, they probably will some day. Prabhupāda: That "probably" again. That is not possible. Carol Jarvis: Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not know. That is I say. Therefore I say you cannot do it. You do not know it. You cannot manufacture even a small germ, what to speak of pilot. That is the problem. The modern education is they do not know it. "Perhaps," "maybe," this is not scientific proposal. *Guru*-kṛpā: Perhaps they can keep you young. Carol Jarvis: That's just what I was going to say. Perhaps they can build something without giving him... Prabhupāda: Who is.... Who is... Carol Jarvis: ...giving him command, a free mind. Prabhupāda: So suppose if you say, "Perhaps I'll be able to keep my young age continually," is it possible? Carol Jarvis: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Then? You don't know. Then learn it. It is not possible. You must become an old lady. (laughter) Carol Jarvis: How do you know? Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. You know also. You are denying only. You know that you shall become... Carol Jarvis: No, but I don't know anything. I'm prepared to not know anything. I'm prepared to wait and see... Prabhupāda: Then you can know from the experience that every.... Your grandmother was young lady some years ago. Now she's old man, old woman. Carol Jarvis: Yes. Prabhupāda: How do you know? Carol Jarvis: But, you know, you could use that argument and say, "Yes, but I also know that they weren't able to cure a single disease." Prabhupāda: Now, if you say that "My grandmother has become old lady. I'll not become," that is lunacy. Carol Jarvis: No, no, no. I'm not suggesting that I'm not going to become old. I'm simply saying that I don't know... Prabhupāda: So therefore, therefore you cannot stop the nature's process. You are dependent. You should first of all understand that you are dependent on nature's process. That is intelligence. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi... [Bg. 3.27]. If you extravagantly say that "I shall stop this nature's process," that is lunacy, craziness. It is not possible. You have to accept that you are under the stringent laws of nature. Carol Jarvis: Oh, I couldn't.... I agree with everything that you're saying about the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. So but therefore how you can make a plan of happiness? Nature is baffling your plan. That you have to understand, "Why nature is baffling me?" That is real knowledge. Carol Jarvis: So your answer... Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol Jarvis: ...is to work with nature. Prabhupāda: We can do that. We can do that, that... You cannot combat with the nature's law, but Kṛṣṇa says that if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can do that. You can stop nature's law acting upon you. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Carol Jarvis: Why.... Why would you want to stop nature's law acting in its natural way? Prabhupāda: Because I don't want to be old man, but I am being forced. Therefore I want to stop this force of the nature. That is my natural inclination. Carol Jarvis: Isn't it also your natural.... Isn't it natural to... *Prabhupāda: It is struggle. Struggle means.... Struggle for existence means there is something against my will, and I want to stop it. This is called struggle for existence. And that is.... The whole world is going on, that.... They have started that United Nation. Why United Nation? You remain.... But they are trying to stop war. "Let us struggle unitedly." So that is going on. You don't want war, but the war is inevitable. Even the United Nation is there, still war is going on. That is struggle. So, but they are not coming to the point of understanding that "We are trying so much, so hard, to become happy, but nature is not allowing me." This is real intelligence. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. If we remain dull-"Let the nature's law act upon me as it likes"*-and we go on struggling to stop it, it will never stop, because nature's law is so powerful. You can never stop it. Carol Jarvis: But why do you want to fight nature at all? Prabhupāda: Then you want happiness. Again I am repeatedly saying that you don't want to stop your old age. You want to remain young. Carol Jarvis: No, no, no... Prabhupāda: Everyone... Carol Jarvis: I'm saying I think I can be happy by working within nature's laws rather than trying to fight them. Prabhupāda: That you are not working. That is.... That is your.... That is... Carol Jarvis: But I'm not unhappy. Prabhupāda: That's all.... You are not happy. Carol Jarvis: No, I'm not unhappy. I'm perfectly happy. Prabhupāda: No, that is your ignorance. Nobody is happy. That is.... Then it is the happiness of the dog. He is also thinking happy. The hog is also thinking happy. That is another illusion. The dog may be a very big dog, and he can bark very nicely, but he is not happy because he has got a master. As soon as the master, "Come here," "Yes." Chain. Carol Jarvis: But all of these people have a mouth, and you do the same to them. You call them, and they jump. Prabhupāda: No. Carol Jarvis: That's the same as a dog coming to its master. Prabhupāda: Yes. But to have a real master and to have a false master.... Just like a physician. He is asking that "Come here. Lie down." He is knife.... He knows that he'll make surgical.... He agrees. But if somebody, rogue, says that "I shall cut your throat," he'll not agree. That is intelligence. A physician is also with the knife, and the rogue is also with the knife. When the physician says, "You lie down. I shall have some surgical operation," he agrees to ply on his body the knife. But he'll never agree if he knows that "He is a rogue. He'll simply cut my throat." That is the difference. But superficially you see, "Both of them are with knife," but one for real happiness, one for false thing. Carol Jarvis: I find it hard to see the difference... Prabhupāda: Yes, you find out how to go to a physician, agree to his proposal. Then you'll be cured. Otherwise you'll have to suffer with that boil, always burning, burning, burning, burning. Carol Jarvis: Thank you for your time. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them some prasāda. [break]...yogi(?). There are many animals. They are also doing.... (background conversation) And Garuḍa also, vegetarian. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Garuḍa. Prabhupāda: Garuḍa. But he carries the Lord Viṣṇu. That is not the point. How to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, that is really.... To become vegetarian, nonvegetarian, that is not very important. But we are interested in Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. We are not in the group of vegetarians or nonvegetarians. We are Kṛṣṇized. We take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. That is our.... We are servant of Kṛṣṇa, so whatever is left over by Kṛṣṇa, we take. If Kṛṣṇa eats meat, we shall take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. What can we do? Therefore we offer Kṛṣṇa whatever He wants to eat, and we take the remnants. That is our.... Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26], so we offer Him. If Kṛṣṇa says, "Māṁsa, eggs, give Me," then we shall offer Him and take. Guest: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Carol Jarvis: Thank you very much. Bye bye. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They all take that this is some kind of a materialistic business, selling books and collecting money, and we purchase a beautiful temple... Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that we are not material; it is all spiritual. That they do not know. Where is material? If everything is prepared and everything, there is Kṛṣṇa, then where is material? When it is misused, other than Kṛṣṇa, then it is material. Now, just like the university department and the criminal department. Where is the difference superficially? That's a building; that's a building. There are officer; there are officer. There are rooms; there are rooms. Why it is called criminal, prison house? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The activities inside. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is the activity which concerns. In the university there is only activity of education, learning. And here, all the criminals are violating the laws, they are put together. But superficially they look the same room, same food, same office, same typewriter. So it is the question of understanding why it is called criminal department and why it is called university. So as soon as it is university department, that is good. The same building, the same dictaphone, the same typewriter, same table, same chair, when they are used for Kṛṣṇa, it is spiritual. The same money, everything, it looks like that. Therefore they cannot understand. The nirviśeṣavādī and the śūnyavādī, they: "Spiritual means these things should be zero." They say it should be zero. "No table, no chair, no house, no, no, no, no..." But that is (laughs) ignorance. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. The things which are usable by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if we give up them, prapañcikā, as material, that is foolishness. That they do not know. They have yet to learn. It is Rūpa Gosvāmī's injunction. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ, mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgaḥ. Parityāga means giving up: "Oh, it is material." So we are not such fools, śūnyavādī and nirviśeṣavādī. We are not such fools. Arjuna, he thought that not killing is better than killing, but Kṛṣṇa convinced him, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Therefore he, after reading Bhagavad-gītā, he took it, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Generally people understand not killing is better than killing. But Kṛṣṇa explained to Arjuna, "No, if there is My desire, then killing is better than not killing." And that is knowledge. Therefore we have to carry out simply Kṛṣṇa's order or His representative's order. Then it is all good. Either killing or not killing, it doesn't matter because it is coming directly from the Supreme. And that is spiritual. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa induced Arjuna to kill? He was presenting as very good man, that "I shall not kill." And that's.... Actually that is good. Even if you enemy excuse him, that is very good idea. But if it is not desired by Kṛṣṇa, then it is bad. So our principle is: We have to act according to the desire of Kṛṣṇa. Then it is good; *otherwise bad. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So in spite of advancement of knowledge, because they are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore they are all duṣkṛtinaḥ, all sinful men. That is the test. So it is very difficult to understand this philosophy, but this is the fact. We are not going to be followers of zero*-vādīs or impersonal-vādīs. We remain completely in the varieties, but these varieties are usable only for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. You cannot stop the varieties. You have to change the quality of the varieties. Just like we are eating. It is not possible to stop eating. Why shall I stop eating? But the quality is changed. It is prasādam. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like we're getting some money for our books. Prabhupāda: The quality's changed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They take that spiritual life is negation of anything that they're doing now, no more money, no more anything. Prabhupāda: For our personal comfort, we, our students are lying on the floor. They are not using the money for purchasing nice furniture. No personal comfort. But if you say that "You are purchasing big, big car," yes, for going quickly to serve Kṛṣṇa. Our service is main point. If I can go and serve Kṛṣṇa within a minute, why shall I wait for one hour? So we take all advantages. After all, it belongs to Kṛṣṇa. They say that "We have manufactured." That's all.... But we say that Kṛṣṇa has manufactured. So they.... This philosophy, it is little difficult to understand by the dull men, that nothing is without Kṛṣṇa. Everything.... Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Sarvam, when we say sarvam, how we can exclude this and that? Everything is in relationship with Kṛṣṇa, sarvam. Sarvam means everything. So how can you discriminate, "This is material; this is spiritual"? The discrimination is that when it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is material, and when it is used for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. That is the explanation of sarvam. Just like a thief has stolen my money. The money will be utilized. He'll spend it. I am spending, and he is.... Then why he's criminal. If you plea.... If you present this plea that "Money's for spending, so either you spend or I spend...," but that is not the idea, that the money.... My money means the money should be spent for my purpose, and because you have taken the money and spending for your purpose, therefore you are criminal. That is the distinction between material and spiritual. Money, or everything, belongs to Kṛṣṇa. When it is utilized for Kṛṣṇa, this is spiritual, and when it is not utilized for Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? You cannot say that "Yes, I have taken your money, so you are also spending. I am also spending. So why do you call me a criminal?" The answer will be: "Yes, you are not spending for me. You are spending for you. Therefore you are criminal." Is it very difficult to understand? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That last argument again? You're taking money? Prabhupāda: The money belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So if you spend it for Kṛṣṇa, then it is spiritual. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And if you spend for your benefit, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1], ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8], bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasām [Bg. 5.29]. Repeatedly says. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor. So when everything is used for the fulfillment of the will of the proprietor, that is proper use. Otherwise improper use. Just like we have given several times this example, "Keep to the right," "Keep to the left." So you are driving your car. The will is, government will is, "Keep to the right." As soon as you keep to the left, immediately you are criminal. You cannot put this argument, "What is the wrong? I am driving." "No, because you have violated my will, therefore you are..." The government will see. That is criminal. So everything.... Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasā... He is the proprietor. He is the enjoyer. So because you have enjoyed without His permission, therefore you become criminal. You are punishable. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpam. You'll see this verse. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhagavad*-gītā. *Prabhupāda: Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. Devotee: It's gone, Śrīla Prabhupāda(?). Prabhupāda: What can I do? *Guru*-kṛpā: "In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajña, supply all necessities to man, but he who enjoys these gifts without offering them to other demigods in return is certainly a thief." Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Morning Walk-*-April 21, 1976, Melbourne Prabhupāda: They'll never accept. But if they simply accept chanting, it will work. (tape of Prabhupāda chanting Govindam prayers in background) [break] ...say on these big, big buildings, but chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Guru*-kṛpā: Svanuṣṭhitaḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. Prabhupāda: If you make condition that you stop this, it will be failure. And it is not possible. *Guru*-kṛpā: I don't think you did like that in the beginning. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-kṛpā: In the beginning you just asked everyone to chant, and naturally they wanted to do more after. Prabhupāda: And if they chant, gradually they'll be purified. (chants japa) [break] ...you take another body, you will greet.... This philosophy does not appeal to the Westerners. Eh? I think so. "Oh, what nonsense this is, speaking?" Eh? Do they not think like that? *Guru*-kṛpā: Yes, they do. Prabhupāda: But that is the actual fact. Devotee (1): This philosophy's alien to everything they heard, so it's different than everything they heard. Prabhupāda: No, no, the.... A fact is that. Why it is alien? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, the Western religions have taught that whatever you do in this lifetime will determine whether you go to heaven or hell, and there's no second chance. Prabhupāda: So.... So they are not afraid of going to hell? There are two alternatives, either heaven or hell. But if he's going to hell? *Guru*-kṛpā: That's why they have confession. Prabhupāda: Oh, finished everything. Devotee (2): Contract. Prabhupāda: How he...? *Guru*-kṛpā: Like my father is very sinful, but he would always say, "The good Lord is protecting me." He would always say, "God, God," but he never would follow anything. [break] Prabhupāda: ...wars? Why...? Why the God does not stop the wars? And they are so much afraid of war. What is the answer? *Guru*-kṛpā: Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti [SB 5.5.4]. They are mad for sense gratification. Prabhupāda: No.... That is all right, but God.... Your father says Lord will protect, but when there is atomic bomb, why He does not protect? *Guru*-kṛpā: Well, up to now He's protected. Prabhupāda: He is protected. Others are not protected. So his term has not yet come. But what is the answer, that "Lord has become your obedient servant to protect. And when He does not?" Actually He does not. The.... In Europe they are very, very much afraid of war, next war. You know that? It becomes a terrible fright for them. Therefore war was not declared. They are very much frightened. They have suffered two big world wars. So why the God did not protect them? [break] ...cow dung philosophy. Cow dung philosophy you know? That one cow dung is just passed through, and the other cow dung is being burned. So this cow dung is laughing, "Oh, you are burned." (laughter) He does not know that when the.... She will be burned. She will be dried up; she will be burned. So your father's logic is like that, "I am protected," laughing at the death of others. Cow dung philosophy. *Guru*-kṛpā: I wouldn't even give him cow dung. Too good for him. [break] Prabhupāda: ...gobar hase(?). Gobar means just fresh cow dung. And she is laughing. And the dry cow dung, he is burning. Bhute pare gobar hase(?). This.... This little logic is very good. Devotee (1): Some people think, "I will never grow old and die." Prabhupāda: Kim āścāryam ataḥ param. That is the eighth wonder. [break] *Guru*-kṛpā: ...yesterday that in India even a simple village man, he has no material affluence, and still he can understand he is not this body. But here they are big, big learned philosophers and they cannot understand the first thing. Prabhupāda: But how they received, eh? You were present. They came to receive: "Oh, it is our great fortune you have come." And in your country, it is trespassing. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was when we were in the field in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very poor farmers came up very nicely to greet Prabhupāda. Devotee (1): Western people want to think they're the body. Otherwise how can they enjoy all their technology? Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that? Devotee (1): They want to think they're the body. They don't want to hear that "I'm not the body," because if they're not in illusion, they can't try and enjoy so much the things of the West. Prabhupāda: That means foolish, less intelligent. *Guru*-kṛpā: We are walking across everyone's field to go the river, and they are saying, "Haribol!" Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: Here they are coming with dogs. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fences. *Guru*-kṛpā: Especially if it's a devotee, they'll be more eager to shoot. Prabhupāda: [break] ...foreign or this, a small river. [break] Devotee (2): 1717. Captain Cook. *Guru*-kṛpā: He's the same one that went to Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Guru*-kṛpā: You know, and they never saw a white man there before. So the natives there in Hawaii were very enamored to see such a big white man, so they took him as God, and they were worshiping him. And one day... Prabhupāda: Captain Cook? *Guru*-kṛpā: Yes. And one day he was walking across the rocks and he hit his foot on a rock and he began to bleed. When they saw the blood, they said, "He is not a God. He is just like us." So they killed him and ate him. Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. Killed him? *Guru*-kṛpā: Yeah, they killed him and ate him. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? *Guru*-kṛpā: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He was eaten? *Guru*-kṛpā: Yes. (laughter) He was taking advantage of their ignorance. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...these original Hawaiians, they were man*-eaters. *Guru*-kṛpā: Yes. Devotee (1): No, they weren't. They just ate him. He had been there a couple of times, so they became suspicious when he came back. He had been exploiting them. [break] *Guru*-kṛpā: ...were so worried, but this country is so big, and there's only twelve million people. More people live in New York City than in this whole country. And they say "overpopulation." Prabhupāda: They would not allow. *Guru*-kṛpā: Yes, they don't allow. Devotee (3): They have the "white Australia policy." [break] Prabhupāda: ...Chinese man, Indians, they will come in large number. But they will not allow. That is the difficulty. *Guru*-kṛpā: There's more cows in this country than people. Prabhupāda: They are killing? *Guru*-kṛpā: They are eating them. Prabhupāda: And other countries, they are starving for want of milk. Therefore I say the United Nation simply barking dogs. What is the value if they cannot adjust? United Nation, all the nations should take advantage all the facilities offered, but that they will not allow. And they are named, "United." Just see. Farce. Devotee (1): In New Zealand they have a hundred million tons of surplus milk powder, and they can't sell it, so they decided to feed it to the pigs. They could send it all over the world. Prabhupāda: Why not take it free and send it to India? [break] ...of the world. Everything is sufficiently there, but still, some are starving and some are enjoying for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Guru*-kṛpā: The rascals, they try to blame everything on Kṛṣṇa by saying, "Why is Kṛṣṇa letting people starve?" Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving them sufficient. They are mismanaging. Still, Kṛṣṇa is still bad. Envious. Kṛṣṇa created this earth. Did He say, "This is for the Australians. This is for the Americans"? Did He say? Why you are keeping so much land as "Australia"? That is also Kṛṣṇa's fault? Australia was never given to the Englishmen. They came and they, by force they took it. So similarly America, the land was there. Devotee (3): They call this colonization, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Whatever you may call, there are thieves, rogues and thieves. That's all. Devotee (3): Exploiting. *Guru*-kṛpā: Now they're dividing up the booty, fighting over it. Prabhupāda: That story, that some thieves stolen. Now, when they are dividing, they say, "Please honestly, religious divide." The things are stolen, and now it is to be divided religiously. The foundation of the thing is stealing, and they are dividing in.... Now they are making laws, morality. Devotee (1): They have a saying, "Honor among thieves." *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] This has been named by father, kaitava, simply cheating. Dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. The duplicity, hypocrisy, is there completely rejected. *Guru*-kṛpā: Kṛṣṇa is a better cheater, though. He will cheat them in the end. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not cheater. The Kṛṣṇa's energy is so powerful that anyone who is a cheater, he will be cheated, that's all, automatically. [break] If you infect some disease, you'll have to suffer, automatically. It is not that the disease has to be injected. No. Because you have infected, you'll suffer. The same law is there. You have done this sinful. You'll suffer that. That is the cycle of birth and death. You have created mentality. You'll become the same animal, and you suffer. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. [break] ...we have. We have seen this cloud, extraordinary. Devotee (2): They can also... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The horn. The horn. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): So it's very dirty river. Prabhupāda: Ah. *Devotee (3): They say it is the upside*-down river. It is more blue on the bottom than it is on the top. Devotee (2): In factories they put all of their waste into the river. [break] Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, last night you were describing how people serve their dogs. And now, in the Western countries, they have restaurants where you can take your dog, and he sits at the table with you and they serve a meal for him. And they have catering services. You can call up, and they will bring a special meal to your dog, so he can eat at his home. They have beauty parlors for dogs, everything. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have taken dogs as God. According to Vedic civilization, dog is untouchable. [break] ...all the centers, then how many days it takes? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: To visit all of our centers in the world? Prabhupāda: No, Europe, America? That is world round. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: About three months if you stayed one day in each center. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, one day only? *Guru*-kṛpā: Thirty-five days. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, no, to visit each center and stay there for some time. *Guru*-kṛpā: Some time? Prabhupāda: "Some time" means five to seven days. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Say average, six days. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At least a half a year, six months, seven months. Prabhupāda: So, so much time. *Guru*-kṛpā: Some of the temples are very small, though. Prabhupāda: No, average... *Guru*-kṛpā: They can come to the big temple. Like here we have three centers. They all come here. Say the big ones in America, there's about six, six, seven big temples which the others can go to. They have facility to accommodate them. Then six or seven temples would be about a month and a half. Prabhupāda: And similarly six and seven in Europe. *Guru*-kṛpā: Europe, there are.... England, France, and Germany. No, that's big. Say about... Prabhupāda: Switzerland. *Guru*-kṛpā: ...four or five weeks. Altogether it's eleven weeks, maybe even two and a half, three months. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think you were possibly wanting to stop in Tehran this year on the way back to India? Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. Devotee (2): We have word from the Melbourne City Council that they intend now not to let us have our annual Rathayātrā festival. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): They want to stop our Rathayātrā festival. Prabhupāda: Where? Devotee (2): In Melbourne. We have got official letter from the City Council, and they are saying that we need not apply anymore. Prabhupāda: That... *Guru*-kṛpā: So we will make propaganda several months before the festival. Prabhupāda: No, you can go to the court. Devotee (2): They are claiming we make too much mess on the streets after the festival, too many flowers on the streets. Prabhupāda: So it is a festival. There must be crowd. You have no festival? Unfortunate. *Guru*-kṛpā: They have festival, and it's beer cans, not flowers. Prabhupāda: So you must fight to the court. How they can stop? It is our religious function. (pause) [break] ...to curb down this movement. In Europe, America, Australia... Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. [break] Prabhupāda: (in car) ...overeating. *Guru*-kṛpā: Things are to stop their farms. *Prabhupāda: I think so. They have gone deliberately. We are against cow*-killing, so if the movement increases, then their cow-killing may be jeopardized. *Guru*-kṛpā: Then they'd have to close many farms. On the grounds that milk causes hepatitis... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: ...they'd have to close many farms. The government gives aid to so many different groups, but they will not give any aid to our group, although we are doing the most work. Prabhupāda: What is the reason? Devotee (1): "Kṛṣṇa..." *Guru*-kṛpā: No, we are too much revolutionary for them, our lifestyle, everything. Prabhupāda: That means they do not like this movement. *Guru*-kṛpā: Just like those people who came yesterday. They could appreciate out movement, but if they felt that we jeopardized their job or something of that nature, then they would go against us, 'cause we are very small, but if we became very popular movement, so... Prabhupāda: Then what to do? *Guru*-kṛpā: Go on with our work. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: We are here to please Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: That's it. *Guru*-kṛpā: ...not to please them. *Prabhupāda: One thing immediately inform Rāmeśvara. In the Bhagavad*-gītā yesterday they have edited "cattle-raising." But not cattle-raising. Cattle-raising means to grow and killing. That is the.... Means the rascals, they have edited. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, and we're.... (interference) Prabhupāda: And "protection of cows," clearly. *Guru*-kṛpā: Chapter Eighteen, Bhagavad-gītā, that the vaiśyas work... *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya. *Prabhupāda: Ah, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya. Immediately inform them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I noticed that also. I thought it was strange, some time back. [break] *Prabhupāda: Hayagrīva edited. He thought, "cattle*-raising." Not "cattle-raising," but the word.... There.... It is mistranslation. It is go-rakṣya, "giving protection to the cows." Especially mentioned, go-rakṣya, not otherwise. The animal-eaters may take other animals, but not cow. They can take the pig, goats, lambs, rabbits, so many others, if they at all want to eat meat, birds, these so many. There is no such mention that "Animals should be protected," no. "Cows should be protected." That is Kṛṣṇa's order. [break] They have decided to kill the cow. They have decided, "No brain. Eat." And our prayer is go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, "to do good to the brāhmaṇas and the cows." Actually it is revolutionary to the modern age. But how it is possible we say otherwise? That Bon Mahārāja came and said, "Right? Am I right?" (?) When Bon Mahārāja here.... When our students said something, "Oh, that you cannot say. That you cannot say." He said like that. *Guru*-kṛpā: Yeah? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: We can say; you cannot say. Prabhupāda: He's such a rascal. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Devotees, we're preaching along the lines that we're preaching, and he was saying, "You cannot say this"? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: Just like we don't say, "You are rascal." We say, "Kṛṣṇa says you are rascal." Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: "So you are saying Kṛṣṇa cannot say?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīm [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4]. He's looking for some following. Prabhupāda: That's all. *Guru*-kṛpā: He cannot hit the heart. Prabhupāda: He was begging, "Give me. Give me (indistinct) (transportion check?)" Who is the rascal that he'll give him (transportion?)? What he is? But he is such a fool, he's begging, "Give me (transportion check?)." Why they'll give you? Then what benefit they'll derive? But he has no common sense to think. *Guru*-kṛpā: That is what I think this disease is, with the Siddha's group, is they are looking for followers, and they do not preach in your style because they would not attract people. Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara's group? *Guru*-kṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara Svāmī? *Guru*-kṛpā: No, Siddha-svarūpa. *Prabhupāda: Oh, Siddha*-svarūpa, oh. *Guru*-kṛpā: They are after followers, and they do not speak strongly, for people would go away. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In one sense it's also confirmed by Rūpa Gosvāmī, yena tena prakāreṇa manaḥ kṛṣṇe niveśayet, sarve vidhi*-niṣedhā syur... Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That "First of all help people to think of Kṛṣṇa, and then later on, the rules and regulations..." *Guru*-kṛpā: But we follow in the footsteps.... Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. We must follow what the spiritual master is doing. We cannot create our own way. Then we will not be successful. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, that's true, but... *Guru*-kṛpā: That is their idea. They have created their own way to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes, that idea is there. They are thinking of their own way. That is bad. We have got so much, so many literatures. They are printing their own literature and.... That is disturbing, yes. What he'll prepare? He's not a liberated person. He's thinking, somebody said, that "I'll give my interpretation on Bhāgavata." If these things are going, they are.... It is against our principles. [break] *Guru*-kṛpā: You know how to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore I follow. I don't even know what Kṛṣṇa is. I'm just trying to follow. Therefore that will be successful. *Prabhupāda: That is my preaching. What Kṛṣṇa said, you say as it is. Don't change. How you can give interpretation? And if he thinks that he can give another interpretation, what is this nonsense? Then he's not following guru or Kṛṣṇa, both. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. One has to receive the mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa. Through guru, Kṛṣṇa's mercy. *Guru*-kṛpā: If they go on like this, can this be considered sampradāya-vihīna ye mantras te viphalaṁ mataḥ? That is, their mantra is not so effective if people are surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. Just like milk touched with the lips.... (end) *Room Conversation-*-April 22, 1976, Melbourne *Prabhupāda: But they do not know how to keep clean. So in India there is no question how to keep clean. They do not know. They'll not take bath for days together. And he likes stop bathing(?), so many germs carrying. And he's a first*-class person, sāheb, on account of the wealth (?). Last maybe. First-class.(?) Don't take bath, neither wash their mouth or hand. And that is... Hari-śauri: That habit is spreading. I've seen in India. Even the Indian businessmen that come to see you... Prabhupāda: They are imitating. Hari-śauri: Yes. It's laziness. Prabhupāda: But you see. I take little medicine and wash hand. But you don't learn it. You remain the same. You have to.... (microphone moving) I show example, but you don't do it. What can I do? Hari-śauri: We're learning. Prabhupāda: I do not know how long you'll learn. Hari-śauri: (laughs) It's like you said in Māyāpura. It's a little artificial for us. It's very.... It's not... Prabhupāda: Cleanliness unknown to the Western people. Hari-śauri: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Śaucam. Satya-śaucābhyām. Śaucam means cleanliness. The Western people, they do not know what is cleanliness. And therefore brāhmaṇa's another name is śuci, always clean. Three times' bathing, three times' changing cloth. It doesn't matter, loin cloth, but cloth must be changed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Outer cloth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Dhoti, like that? Prabhupāda: No, you take bath. You have to change your cloth. It becomes wet. This is cleanliness. Satya-śaucābhyām. Śamena damena ca brahmacarya, tapasā brahmacaryeṇa [SB 6.1.13]. Tapasya, the first beginning of tapasya, is brahmacārī. Yamena niyamena vā tyāgena satya-śaucābhyāṁ yamena niyamena vā. This is human life, tapasā, brahmacaryeṇa, śamena, damena vā [SB 6.1.13], then truthfulness, cleanliness, controlling the senses. So these things are required. Otherwise what is the difference between dog's life? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People don't see what the gain will be. If one.... People don't see, in Western countries, or appreciate what the gain will be by exerting much effort in these ways. Prabhupāda: That they do not know, what is the real gain. They think this body is the gain only. And beyond this body there is another gain. That is not known. They do not know even. That is the defect of their civilization. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. They are taking care of the body, but beyond the body there is something else which is eternal. Even after the annihilation of the body, it does not become destroyed. That they do not know. There is no education. There is no research. There is no college. There is no science to understand. And that kind of taking care of the body, a dogs know. Sometimes the dogs, they rub their body on the ground like that. That.... That makes them rejuvenated. Horse also do that. So how to take care of the body, they know in their different method. But that is known to them. If before the horse you give them some meat, they'll not take. And give them peas; they'll take immediately. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Give them milk? Prabhupāda: No, meat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Meat. He will not take. Prabhupāda: And the dog, you give fruit; he'll dislike. Give him rotten meat, he can take. So there is difference between dog's life, horse life, even in animals. Hari-śauri: They know how to look after their bodies. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then the argument that animals have no intelligence... Prabhupāda: And what is your intelligence? You are using the intelligence for the same purpose. And what is the use of your intelligence? Hari-śauri: It's just waste. Prabhupāda: No, no. If animal has no intelligence, you have no intelligence. What you are doing more than the animals? That we are protesting, that "Why you should remain in the animal intelligence?" That is our propaganda. Hari-śauri: If you can't prove yourself capable of taking use of better facility, then again you get less facility. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You explained very nicely how these boys and girls, they will sit on the floor. What is the need to manufacture chair? So a civilization which is geared to unnecessarily increasing the necessities is simply glorified... Prabhupāda: Wasting time. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is not the real business of human life. Prabhupāda: But they are thinking, "This is advancement. To sit on the floor is primitive, but to sit on the chair is civilized." *Hari-śauri: Well, when we were on the plane in the first*-class, we were eating with our hand, and I could see, these men, they were eating with knife and fork, and they were looking like this. And they were.... I could see what they were thinking. They were disgusted: "Here are these men, sitting in first-class, eating with their hands, very primitive and crude." And they're eating with knife and fork, and I was thinking, "What are they eating? Some beef or some meat preparation, like this." But they're thinking they're civilized. Prabhupāda: Then why? Why? Hari-śauri: Yes. "Because I have knife and fork, now I'm civilized." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember when I first went to Vṛndāvana and I saw in the villages how they were using dirt and charcoal to clean their pots and pans... Prabhupāda: Yes, they use it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I thought the.... It was my condition.... I have never seen before. I thought, "What is this? They are making their pots and pans dirty?" Because, you know, we're so accustomed to detergents and soaps, and you have to have so many things to clean. Prabhupāda: That is not also properly clean. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: The down side of the pan remains black. But if you take some dirt and rub it nicely, it become glisten. *Hari-śauri: Dirt is very first*-class for cleaning. Prabhupāda: Utensils for cooking purpose must be very, very clean. The.... If the black portion remains, in India they will not touch. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even on the bottom? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: On the outside? Prabhupāda: They'll not touch: "Oh, it is still dirty." But our going on. What can be done? Where there is no cleanliness, little rubbed with soap, that is sufficient. What can be done? But that is not cleanliness. If there is a black spot on the..., it has to.... It will immediately be cleaned. My mother used to see every utensil, whether there is any spot. The maidservant had to surrender. Examine. Then it is no spot. Then it is finished. Otherwise she has to do again. Everything should be neat and clean. The kitchen should be very neat and clean, washed twice daily, opened nicely and smeared with water and gobar. And if you see the kitchen, immediately you'll feel comfortable. It is very cleanly prepared, then offered to the Deity. Then you take. Automatically your mind becomes cleansed. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So that was a very wonderful meeting Prabhupāda had in his room in Melbourne, the evening of April 22nd, 1976. There were three young men who came to visit Prabhupāda, and their names were Brian Singer, Doug Warvick, and Michael Gordon. The person who was first speaking, and he spoke at the very beginning was.... Who was it? Hari-śauri: The one who was speaking for a little while. That was... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mike Gordon, he spoke first, and I think he only asked one question. Then it was all.... Then Brian Singer was asking all the rest of the questions. And the first boy was Michael Gordon. And then Brian Singer asked the majority of questions all throughout the whole thing. Haribol. Good article for BTG, especially the first part of this discourse, fantastic. [break] Incidentally, there's not enough room to tape anything else on the rest of this tape, so I'm going to zip it off now. Haribol. Signing off, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Prabhupāda: We have come to give this message of Kṛṣṇa. That is our business. We are not tourists. Michael Gordon: What does being a devotee of Kṛṣṇa involve? Does it...? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa involved means you are.... Every one of you, you are Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel. But on account of your forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa, you are suffering. Therefore our message is that "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. You'll be happy." This is our message. Otherwise we have no business to bring the message to the forgotten persons, that "You have forgotten Kṛṣṇa; therefore you are suffering. You awaken your Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You'll be happy." This is our message. Brian Singer: What does.... When you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, does it mean you come into the chapel, or can you lead the sort of life that we lead and still...? Prabhupāda: No, going to the chapel, that is one of the means, but there are nine different processes, of which, hearing about Kṛṣṇa is the most important thing, śravaṇam. If you continuously hear about Kṛṣṇa. Therefore these books are there, hearing and chanting. If you cannot read, I'll read; you hear. I'll speak. Or you will speak; *I'll hear. These two processes are very important. Therefore we are presenting in English language the subject matter of Kṛṣṇa so elaborately. We have published eighty*-two books like this. If you read one book.... This is the preliminary study. Then, if you read it with great attention, you become Kṛṣṇa conscious immediately. Then you understand about Kṛṣṇa from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in sixty books, and then you enjoy the transcendental pleasure in Caitanya-caritāmṛta in seventeen books. So you cannot finish even within your life. So many books are there. And you'll forget reading other books. Brian Singer: We'll just...? *Prabhupāda: The first book of reading is this, Bhagavad*-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā is well known all over the world. Every scholar, religionist, everyone reads, all over the world. But sometimes they are misinterpreted foolishly. We are therefore presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any foolish interpretation. What Kṛṣṇa says, we repeat the same thing. Brian Singer: In the Kṛṣṇa teachings, the person is not the body but the soul, which is like many religions. Also, some animals, animals also, are not the body but the soul. This is true? Like the cow and the dog and the cat? *Prabhupāda: Yes, everywhere soul is there. Just like the soul is there in the child, in the boy, in the young man, in the middle*-aged man, in the old man. Brian Singer: Yeah, I understand this. Prabhupāda: So similarly, soul is everywhere. Brian Singer: And in the animal also? In the dog? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Brian Singer: Yeah? And how far down in the animal world? Like you have the worm and also bacteria and the virus. Is also true? Prabhupāda: That is the difference. I have already told you that the soul is in the child, and the soul is in the body of the father, but the child's soul is.... Or.... Soul is everywhere, but the proportionate consciousness is not developed. Just like wood. In every wood there is fire. Do you admit? Brian Singer: In every...? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Wood. Brian Singer: Oh, yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: Now, if a small piece of wood, a small piece of fire. And big piece of wood, big piece of fire. Similarly, according to the body, the consciousness of the soul is present. Brian Singer: In proportion to the form of life. Prabhupāda: In proportion to the body the.... The same fire, but the proportion of the fire is different, in proportion of the piece of wood. Similarly, according to the body, the consciousness is manifest. The consciousness of a child is different from the consciousness of the father because the body is different. So in the human form of life it is expected that the consciousness should be fully developed. If it does not develop by some reason or other, then it remains like animal. In the human form of life it is expected that the consciousness should be fully developed. Brian Singer: In animals... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brian Singer: ...it's there, but it isn't developed. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): Yes, that's correct. In animals the soul is there, but the consciousness is not developed. *Prabhupāda: Not developed. But you cannot say there is no soul. Sometimes they say foolishly that the animal, there is no soul. That is foolishness. Everywhere there is soul. It is not developed. So just like a child is as good as animal, but you cannot say in the child there is no soul. The consciousness is not developed. You can say like that. Similarly, there are 8,400,000 species of forms. They are different on account of different development of consciousness. A tree, there is consciousness, but it is very, very covered. If you cut the tree, it does not protest, because the consciousness is not developed. I have seen in children surgical operation. They do not require anesthetics. I remember. My eldest daughter, when she was child, she had some boil here. So the doctor wanted to operate. So I asked him that "Apply anesthetic or do something." "No, no, they don't require." And so the doctor cut the boil, and the child simply, "Ehhh, ehhh," no crying. I have seen it when they did.... No crying. Because the consciousness is not developed. Now, what do you mean by...? When you are unconscious, if your head is cut off, you do not understand. That is practical if by medicinal process you are made into unconsciousness, chloroform anesthetic, so that you don't feel. This is practical. So unless the consciousness is developed, one's soul's full*-fledged function does not develop. So this is a chance in the human form of body that the consciousness should be developed. Therefore we are presenting these books. They can understand. We are not presenting the books to the cats and dogs. They cannot understand. Those who are developed conscious, they can understand, and they can understand the value of life, what is the objective of life. Then he acts accordingly, and his life becomes successful. Otherwise, if we do not develop consciousness, simply eat like animal, sleep like animal, enjoy sex life like animal, and try to defend ourself like animal, then where is the difference between man and the animal? At the present moment they are busy with these four things: how to eat, how to sleep, how to have best process of sex life, and how to defend by atomic bomb. This is their advancement of civilization. And this is dog's civilization. A dog is also trying for the same purpose, how to eat, how sleep, how to have sex, and how to defend. That's all. Any animal is trying. Any small insect, it is trying for the same thing. So human life should be utilized only for these four things? No. To understand himself, "What I am? Why I do not like death?" Just like we make some arrangement, struggle for existence for becoming happy, stopping the impediments. So this question should be there in the human form of life, that "I don't want to die. Why death comes upon me? What is the superior power that is enforcing death upon me? I am young man. I don't want to become an old man. Why? Why I am forced to become an old man?" These are the questions of human life. A dog cannot think. A dog cannot think that "Why I have become dog? Why I am barking, and why I am chained?" He doesn't think. And if we remain unconscious like the dog, then where is the advancement of civilization? Dog civilization is not human civilization. Human civilization should be different from the doggish life. Brian Singer: How do you awake that consciousness? Prabhupāda: Then.... Therefore the books are there. The first of all, you have to understand, "Whether I am this body or I am different from body?" This is the first instruction. If you are.... If you are human being, we should analyze the body. We are now scientist, chemist, physicist. Analyze the body. What is the difference between dead body and living body? The dead body is there. The son is crying, "My father is gone." Where your father is gone? He is lying on the bed. Why you say that "Father is gone"? Hm? What is the answer. The father is lying on the bed, the same coat, pant, and bedding, and everything is there. Why you say that "My father is gone"? Where he is gone? He is lying there. Why do you say he is gone? Brian Singer: We normally say he's dead. *Prabhupāda: No, no, death.... What is the distinction between death and life? You are now dressing with these coat, pants, and this same body, same hair. Now, something will be minus*-you'll be called dead. What is that something? That you do not know. Eh? Brian Singer: The "you." Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee (2): Yes, the person. Brian Singer: The person. Prabhupāda: Person. But the person you have never seen. You have never seen. I am seeing you: I am seeing your body, hat, coat, pant, hair. That's all. And dead body also, I will see the same thing. But I say, "Now the person is gone." Then but you have never seen the person. Now you say the person is gone, but before that, you were never interested with the person; you were interested with this body, coat, pant, hair, and that's all. That's all. That is ignorance. Brian Singer: Well, how do you see the person? By understanding? By... Prabhupāda: Yes, by analysis, analysis. Now you.... I say that you are not this body. Now you say, "No, I am.... I am Mr. John. I am this body. I am American," "I am Australian." That is ignorance. You are neither Australian, neither American, neither white, neither black. That you have to understand. Neither coat, neither pant. You are different from all these things. That is the first understanding. If we analyze our body and if we at least theoretically understand that "I am not this body," then you are..., you come to the spiritual platform. Brian Singer: This is possible to understand... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brian Singer: ...but what is sometimes difficult to understand, where does... Prabhupāda: Difficult may be. Brian Singer: ...where does originally the soul come from? Prabhupāda: In the beginning arithmetic, mathematic, to a child it is difficult. And "One plus two equal to three, two plus two equal to four," in the beginning it may be difficult for a child, but the subject matter is very easy. Brian Singer: How does a soul... *Prabhupāda: The child can understand, "Now, two finger and two finger, it becomes four finger." In this way we have to learn it. Therefore there are so many books. It is for the human being to learn. But if we simply remain civilized like cats and dog, then what is your advancement of civilization? There is no advancement. If you sit on this chair, and the others, they are sitting on the floor, sitting purpose is served. But if you say, "Sitting on the chair is civilized, and that is uncivilized," that is mental concoction. You have to serve your purpose. If by sitting on the floor you can understand what you are, that is civilization. And without understanding yourself, if you waste your time for manufacturing a chair, that is cats' and dogs' civilization. So that is going on. They are busy in manufacturing chairs, how to sit comfortably, without any knowledge that what is the value of life and what is life. This is going on. They are thinking that constructing big, big skyscraper building and motorcars and high roads and so many, so many, unnecessary things, that is advancement of civilization. No. Advancement of civilization is there when you know what you are. That is advancement of.... You can.... There is no prohibition. The materialistic way of civilization, constructing big, big house, there is no.... You don't stop it, but if you forget yourself*-you do not know what you are-then it is wasting time because the human life is specially meant for understanding "What I am?" The cats and dogs, they cannot do. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to enlighten people actually what he is, what is the aim of life and how his life will be successful, how at the present moment he is living, how he is spoiling his valuable life. These are the subject matter dealt in these books. Brian Singer: How do you treat.... In Australia mostly people are brought up in Christian religion. Do you treat... *Prabhupāda: Well, Christian religion.... We are not talking of religion. We are talking of science, fact. When I say that "You are young man. You'll become old man," either you are Christian or Hindu, Muslim, this is a fact. So don't bring in "The Christian believe this" or "Hindu believe this." Fact is fact. A child becomes a boy*-a Christian believes; a Hindu believes; a Muslim believes. Everyone believes. So we are talking of the science. The child becomes a boy, a boy becomes a young man, young man becomes old man, and the old man, when this body becomes rotten, he accepts another body. So this is applicable for Bible or Christian or this or that, everyone. Brian Singer: It's just different method of teaching. Prabhupāda: No method. Same method. But if you say it, a different method, then we don't mind, but this is the subject matter of study. "Two plus two" is taught by the Christian and the Muslim, the Hindu. "Two plus two equal to four." There is no method of studying. The studying is the same. But if you take that "I'll read 'two plus two' in a Christian school," that is your choice. That's another thing. But wherever you go, "Two plus two equal to four," it is same. You call it Christian or Hindu or Muslim. That's your whims. Science is science. So we are preaching that "You are not this body; you are different from body." So it is equally necessary for the Christian, for the Hindu, for the Australian, for the American, for the African, everyone. Brian Singer: What's.... What's the concept of... Prabhupāda: If you say that.... I say that "You are not this body; you are soul." Now, if you say that "As Christian, we don't believe in it," then what can I say? Then I have to say that Christian have no clear idea of knowledge. There is no question of belief. Fact is fact. A child will become a boy. That's a fact. How you can say that "We Christian, we do not believe"? That means ignorance, less intelligence. It is a fact. Everyone knows. Child becomes a boy. Brian Singer: What is the God that these other religions believe in? Is that... *Prabhupāda: First of all you try to understand yourself. Then talk of God. If you do not understand yourself, how you'll understand God? That is a big thing. Try to understand the small thing, that you are not this body. Talk on this subject matter, that as.... When you understand that "I, the proprietor of the body, I am different from this body," then you will understand God also, very easily. Because you are the proprietor of this body and you are given the controlling power of the body by thinking, feeling, willing, by acting.... You have got this body. You are sitting here. You can say, "Now I am going away." The body is under your control. You can do that. Similarly, when you understand this fully, then you'll understand that in this huge, gigantic body, material cosmic manifestation, there is a controller, easily. But if you do not understand yourself, how you can understand God? God is not different in quality than from you. God means like you in huge, unlimited quantity. As you have got little intelligence*-you can create a wonderful thing, 747 airplane flying in the air-so God has got unlimited brain. Millions and trillions of universes are floating in the air. The process is the same. You are tiny. You are very much proud that "I am so advanced that I have manufactured 747." And just why not compare the intelligence of God? Such a huge lump of matter, the sun, is floating also there. That is the difference between you and God. You have got brain, He has got brain, but your the brain is very tiny, little, and his brain very big. That is difference between God and you. So if you understand yourself, sample of God, then you understand the Supreme God. But first of all you do not understand yourself. I am misidentifying, "I am this body." And that is doing.... The cats and dogs, they are doing that. Then where is your human intelligence? Then how you can understand God if you have no human intelligence? These books are meant for the human being. If I give to the dogs that "Read this book; *you'll understand God," who cares for it? All these school, college, institution, university, they are meant for human being, not for the cats and dogs. So if we do not take advantage of this human form of life and try to understand ourself and God, then we are simply cats and dogs. That is going on. We are fighting like cats and dogs. And before the Englishman came in Australia, Australia was property of somebody else. And now you have captured Australia, you are barking, "Why you have come, Indian, here?" What is this civilization? Hm? You have taken illegally from others, and now you have become proprietor. You are barking like dog, "Why you have come here?" What is this civilization? The civilization is.... All land belongs to God. We are sons of God. We can go anywhere, everywhere. It is father's property. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. If we take it like that*-the United Nation passed a resolution, "The whole world belongs to the whole human society"-then there is no fight, immediately. But that they'll not do. The dog's quality. And they are fighting always. What benefit you have derived from the United Nation except this big, big barking? That's all. What benefit you have got? The purpose of United Nation was to stop war. Has war stopped? Then what is the use of barking? You could not achieve. Formerly you started League of Nation, after the Second... Devotee (3): First World War. Prabhupāda: First World War, yes. That was futile. Again you have started United Nation. Where is the benefit? There cannot be benefit. If you keep the dogs as dog, you bring them, "You Australian dog, come here, and American dog, come here, and European dog, come here. Live peacefully," will they live peacefully? So if you keep the human society as cats and dogs, how can you expect peace? They must be human being. Then there will be peace. So this is the training how to make human being, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now these boys, they are also Europeans, Americans. They are coming from respectable, very educated.... They'll never ask for a chair. "Sit down. That's all." The necessities of life, artificial necessities, reduced, and time is saved for understanding the value of life. Without motorcar your life will not be spoiled. You can walk. But without Kṛṣṇa consciousness your life is spoiled. So how.... We recommend that "First of all understand yourself." Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is your prime business. And so far necessities of body, that can be done according to the circumstances. So if we simply waste our time for increasing unnecessary necessities of life and do not try to understand the value of life, then we remain animal. Brian Singer: I understand that the body, you know, like the soul is different from the body... Prabhupāda: Then your.... Then your activities will be changed. Brian Singer: But what.... I would like to know more about the, the soul in so far as, does it have beginning? Does it have end? *Prabhupāda: No, soul is always there. Just like the soul in the boy, the soul in the young man, and the soul in the old man*-the same. Brian Singer: Yeah, and before life... Prabhupāda: Body has changed. Body has changed. The soul is the same. You can remember, I can remember that "I was a small boy. I was a small child." But the body is not there. I remember, when I was six months old I was lying down on the lap of my eldest sister, and she was knitting. I was seeing. I still remember. But where is that body? That body's gone. Brian Singer: Yeah, this is possible to understand. Before the body, the soul is still there? Prabhupāda: Before the childhood body and..., you were existing. Before your body was formed in the womb of your mother you were existing. Brian Singer: Existing for millions of years. *Prabhupāda: Then you entered a matter, material body created by your father and mother. Then you grew. Then, when you were sufficiently grown, then you have come out. Then again grew, again grow, again grow. Again it becomes old. You give up this body, in the same way again enter another mother's body, again develop another body. This science has to be understood, how it is going on. And that is Bhagavad*-gītā. Brian Singer: And in the beginning of time of the soul? Prabhupāda: Why...? There is no beginning. Beginning of the body. Brian Singer: No, I don't want to know about the beginning of the body. I can understand. I want to know about the beginning of the soul. Prabhupāda: The soul is already there. Soul is already.... Just like this room was already there. Now I have entered. And again I give up this room; *I go to another room. Like that. Not that this room becomes another room, room. If I have to go to another room, I have to give up this room. I have to go another room. So I am the same. I am changing different rooms, different body. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Find out this verse. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youthhood to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." Prabhupāda: Hm. Purport. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport: "Since every living entity is an individual soul, each is changing his body every moment, manifesting sometimes as a child, sometimes as a youth, and sometimes as an old man. Yet the same spirit soul is there and does not undergo any change. This individual soul finally changes the body at death and transmigrates to another body. And since it is sure to have another body..." Prabhupāda: The example is already given: The child is transmigrating to the boy's body. Already given. Similarly.... Go on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "And since it is sure to have another body in the next birth, either material or spiritual, there is no cause for lamentation by Arjuna on account of death, neither for Bhīṣma nor for Droṇa, for whom he was so much concerned. Rather he should rejoice for their changing bodies from old to new ones, thereby rejuvenating their energy. Such changes of body account..." Prabhupāda: Now, suppose I am old man. If by some medical process, if I am given a young man's body to be more enthusiastic for working, is it not benefit for me? Similarly, in old age, when the body is changed, he gets another new body. That is a profit. There is no loss. The old body, it cannot work nicely. It cannot move nicely. Just old car.... If your old car is changed into new car, will you not accept it? So it is just like machine, car. Brian Singer: You're not aware of this... Prabhupāda: Aware? You have to aware, become aware by the books, by the knowledge. Brian Singer: How was the soul originally created? This... Prabhupāda: Eh? Brian Singer: The original creation... Prabhupāda: There is no creation. That you have to understand. Brian Singer: It always is. Prabhupāda: It is eternal. There is no creation. If soul is created by some combination of matter, then you could create. That you cannot do. Brian Singer: So there was no starting point in time. Prabhupāda: No, eternal. And that is explained there. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ [Bg. 2.18]. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ. And another, na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit: "It is never created; it is never annihilated." You open that verse, na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *"For the soul there is never birth nor death, nor having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever*-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." Brian Singer: Without the consciousness, what happens to the soul when the body dies? Prabhupāda: He enters another body. Suppose if by force I get you out of this room, then you enter another room. That's all. But this is illegal, that you are living in this room.... By force if I get you out, that is illegal. Then I have to await for the punishment, "Why you have driven out this?" So similarly, although soul is immortal, but taking the soul is immortal, you cannot cut anyone's throat. He has got a right to live in that body for some time by the ordained order of the Supreme. I cannot get you out by force. That is sinful. By nature's way, when he gives up this body, that's all right. But I cannot force the soul to go out of this body by killing. That is sinful. *Brian Singer: How do.... In the Gītā, Bhagavad*-gītā, there was a problem to understand when a person was told by Kṛṣṇa to fight. Prabhupāda: Well, that is.... That.... That we shall discuss. First of all you understand that you are not this body. Brian Singer: But how can you... *Prabhupāda: Then we discuss other things. This is the primary education of spiritual life. First of all you have to understand that you are not this body. You are living entity, different from the body. Just like you are different from the shirt*-coat. But the difficulty is, the person who is in a different type of shirt-coat, he is identifying with the shirt-coat, and they are fighting. You have got black coat. You have got white coat. You have got yellow coat. But they do not understand, none of us belong to the coat. We are different from the coat. That is ignorance. The whole world is going on under this impression that "I am this body." So how there will be peace? That kind of thinking is there in the dogs, in the cats. So our point is that if you remain like cats and dogs, how you can attain peace? You are endeavoring for peace. It is not possible. First of all you understand yourself. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. These things are discussed there. Brian Singer: It is good to work towards understanding of God and Kṛṣṇa consciousness. How do you know.... How does the individual person know.... If he makes decision every day.... But we must make decisions on certain things... Prabhupāda: No, in ignorance, whatever decision you make, that is foolishness. Brian Singer: Any? Prabhupāda: Any decision. If you are on the wrong platform, whatever decision you make, that is foolishness. And therefore we are being baffled. Every time we are making decision, and next time it is found useless, another decision, because on the wrong platform, the basic principle being wrong, whatever decision you make, this is all foolishness. What is the value of the children's decision? Is there any value? Because he's not in proper understanding, what is the meaning of his decision? So one child makes one decision. Another child makes another decision. There is fight. The dog also do that. Brian Singer: Who made the decision for Arjuna to fight or not to fight? *Prabhupāda: That you'll understand when you actually understand yourself. You do not understand yourself. You cannot understand why Kṛṣṇa said that "You fight." First of all understand yourself. That is the first instruction the Arjuna was given, that the.... Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. He's not teaching how to fight. He's teaching the philosophy. Try to understand the, I mean, step by step. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a scientific movement. It is not a religious faith. That is not. The beginning is that as the child grows to become a boy and boy grows to become a young man.... This is scientific. It is not the question of religion. It is religion.... According to Sanskrit, the dharma, the word dharma, that is translated into "religion," and religion means a kind of faith. But it is not like that. It is a science to understand your real identification. And because Kṛṣṇa we worship.... Every big man should be worshiped, so Kṛṣṇa we accept God. They take it as religion. But He's God. That's a fact. God*-worshiping is religion. But Kṛṣṇa is speaking everything knowledge. Knowledge means you must have knowledge of everything, social, political, religious, cultural, philosophical, chemical, physical, everything. So the Bhagavad-gītā is like that. Vedic knowledge is like that. You receive any type of knowledge you want to get. That is called Veda. Veda means knowledge. Knowledge means of anything. That is knowledge. So everything is there. You'll find social, political.... This fighting is political. So in politics sometimes war is necessary. You cannot avoid it when there is politics. That is the whole history, and politics are never settled up without war. There is no history. When you come to the political platform, war is necessary. In logic it is called argumentum vaculum, that when a man is not accepting reasoning, then there must be stick. It is like that. When there are two parties-there is some disagreement-so one is not reasonable, then there must be stick. That is war. Just like animal. The animal cannot understand reasoning, so you have to take the stick. Then the animal will agree. If a dog entering room, you don't want him in, so you say, "Dog, don't enter." He'll not hear. And if you show a stick, it will go away. So for the dogs, for the animals, stick is required. That is war. And there is logic. You know this, argumentum vaculum. In logic there is. So when logic fails, you have to take to war. Not whimsically. You try to avoid war. And when the other party does not agree to logic, then there must be fight. So that is also necessary because all men are not abiding by logic. So everything is necessary if it used for good purpose. Just like surgical operation. The patient is crying, "Don't operate me, surgical." So it is necessary. Otherwise he'll not be cured. So war is not always bad. War is meant for good purpose. But if you use it.... Everything you can use for bad purpose. That is another thing, another side. But don't think that war is itself always bad, no. Brian Singer: Sometimes my understanding of the Kṛṣṇa teachings in the book is to reach a stage or a state in your person where there is no disappointment or no very happy... *Prabhupāda: No. If you follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction, you'll always be happy. And if you create your own plans, then you'll be unhappy. This is the whole instruction. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "You give up your own plans, nonsense plan. You take My plan. You'll be happy." This is the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gītā. You take Kṛṣṇa's plan and you'll be happy. Brian Singer: And you avoid disappointment. Prabhupāda: Yes. There will be no disappointment. And as, if you make your plan, it will be baffled and you'll be disappointed. That is going on. Brian Singer: But sometimes in the past, I have noticed from very bad disappointment that I have learnt very much. Prabhupāda: Well, you were lucky. You are sometimes not disappointed. But generally you are disappointed. So we are teaching that "You take Kṛṣṇa's plan. You'll be happy. Don't make your own plan. You'll never be happy." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Brian Singer: Is Kṛṣṇa cons..., the Kṛṣṇa movement, is it still growing? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): Is the Kṛṣṇa movement still growing? Prabhupāda: What do you think? Brian Singer: In numbers. Yeah. I think yes, but I don't know. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It must grow. If it is good, there must be customer. And if it is bad*-it is cheating-there may be some customer for some time, then it will be finished. That is the test of reality and false thing. You can cheat persons with false things for some time, but if your commodity is right, the customer will increase. That's a fact. The more people will appreciate, "Oh, here is nice commodity. Purchase it..." Brian Singer: Do many people follow Kṛṣṇa consciousness by reading books in this method? Prabhupāda: No, not only reading books. By practicing, by understanding. Then it comes right. Brian Singer: But what proportion of those people, of all the people... Prabhupāda: You.... You cannot expect any good thing to be taken up by mass of people. That is not possible. In university, when matriculation candidates, there are so many. Then B.A. candidates, so many. And when you come to the M.A., Ph.D., a very few number. Doug Warvick: Why is that? Prabhupāda: You cannot expect that everyone should be M.A., Ph.D. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is like that. It is not meant for ordinary persons. Those who are very intelligent, they can understand it. Ordinary men, they cannot understand even that he's not this body. What he will understand about Kṛṣṇa? Therefore the beginning understanding is that "I am not this body." When you are firmly convinced about this science that you are not this body, then Kṛṣṇa consciousness beginning. Brian Singer: And it's not necessary to live a temple life. Prabhupāda: No, temple life is a.... Just like if you go to school.... Without school you can be educated. It is not that we..., unless you go to school you can be educated. But if you go to school you get greater facilities. And that is the way. Just like in our country Rabindranath Tagore, he never went to school. You have heard the name of Rabindranath Tagore? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Rabindranath Tagore. Prabhupāda: Tagore. Devotee (2): He's a famous Indian poet. Prabhupāda: So never went to school, but Oxford University gave him Ph.D. That does not mean that "I shall also receive Ph.D. like Rabindranath Tagore. I shall not go to school." The general method is: one must go to the school. Exceptional cases, that without going to school one can become Ph.D.... But we should not imitate that, that "Rabindranath Tagore got Ph.D. without going to school. I shall sit down." But the fact is that even without going to school one can get Ph.D. That's a fact. But that is not the method. The method is that you must go to the primary school, then secondary school, then enter college, then take your degree. Then you become M.A. and Ph.D. That is the general process, step by step. And if you take the example of Rabindranath Tagore, that "He did not go to school. Then I shall not go to school," then you may be spoiled also, without going to school. That is the, generally the case. Brian Singer: How did you find the transition, or how did it affect you, the transition from leading a life in the business world... Prabhupāda: No, no, business.... Business world is not bad. Why do you think that because I was a businessman, therefore I could not be...? Brian Singer: No, no. I just want to know how you found the transition. *Prabhupāda: No, this is our regulative principle, that first of all you be trained up as brahmacārī. Then you be entered into family life. Then you retire from family life. Then you become a sannyāsī. This is a general procedure, not that you shall stick to one position. So a businessman does not mean he's fallen man. He can become first*-class Kṛṣṇa conscious. Doug Warvick: And still be a businessman or...? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not? Just like Arjuna. He's a military man. That is also another business. He's military man. He knew how to fight. Similarly businessman's how to make trade. So this is different grades of livelihood. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not depend on this life or that life. Everyone can become. *Guru*-kṛpā: They know Ugra-srava(?). He's a businessman here, that's all he does. Brian Singer: Yeah, I understand. Prabhupāda: Everyone can be devotee.... It is a question to understand that "I am not this body." That is beginning. So a businessman can try to understand, a lawyer can try to understand, or a philosopher can try to under.... Everyone can do that. The real point is, first of all try to understand that you are not this body. So where is the hampering, becoming a businessman or family man or this or that? There is no hampering. We are trained up from the very beginning of our life by our parents. We got the opportunity. And businessman, no businessman, it doesn't matter. Ahaituky apratihatā yayātmā suprasīdati. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo... [SB 1.2.6]. Find out this verse. Ahaituky apratihatā. Kṛṣṇa conscious is unhampered by anything material. It does not mean that because you are a businessman you cannot be Kṛṣṇa conscious. No. That is not. You may be whatever you are, but you can become Kṛṣṇa conscious at the same time. [break] (devotees offer obeisances) (background talking) So it is not the superexcellency of English language. It is subject matter. Formerly they used to speak in Sanskrit. Therefore it is recorded in Sanskrit language. It can be transferred to any language. The thoughts are there. That is real point. Just like we are translating the thoughts in English, in Spanish, in Portuguese, in French. The real thing is the thought, not the language. But in Sanskrit language you'll find very, very high thoughts. That is because it is very old language. Brian Singer: Do you find that in the translation from the thoughts and the Sanskrit to the English words, then from the English words to the mass of the people's heads, do you find that there is much loss? *Prabhupāda: No, if you have grasped the thought, that you can express in any language. But if you cannot grasp the thought, then you cannot express. So the.... Our translation is that we have to receive the thoughts as it is by the paramparā system. Therefore it is presented so nicely, and people like it. It is.... It is the value of the subject matter. That we have to receive from authorities. Just like any scientific book, say medical science. You cannot understand medical science by reading the books. It must be received through a medical man. Then it will be clear. Therefore the paramparā system.... Arjuna said, evaṁ paramparā... Kṛṣṇa said, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. Everything is paramparā. If you receive the knowledge from the authority, then you are in perfect knowledge, simply by..., not by reading the books. Therefore our method is to accept the perfect guru to understand the subject matter. But still, if one reads the books as it is from authorities, there is chance of understanding. Real thing is training. So our institution is training, not only training, full knowledge, practical and theoretical. That is real scientific. If you give up one side, then you can give up the theoretical side, but practical side you cannot give up. Then you'll never come. The two sides, practical and theoretical.... So that is real scientific knowledge. So two sides are presented in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and they are being thoroughly trained up. (pause) Take prasādam. (end) Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The machine, I forgot to turn it..., one knob down. I wanted to tape what you were saying because.... [break] We find actually it's true that when we try to speak philosophy sometimes to unwilling persons, they take that we are trying to convert them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And therefore they feel threatened. They react in an adverse way, put up so many barriers. Prabhupāda: Chanting they will take part. That's it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Before you went to America, in India, before 1965, were people coming at all, Indian people, to learn anything? Were they interested in any way? Prabhupāda: No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now they're coming, so many. Prabhupāda: They were coming. But I was engaged in writing. I was not visiting many... Hari-śauri: [break] ...when they begin to write, then they finish up their activities and retire and simply write. But you wrote first and then came out. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I personally, I don't think that even Americans or Westerners would have accepted even your teachings as clear as they are without having your personal association and seeing your example. I think people would have thought that it's totally impossible to do such a thing. Hari-śauri: It would have remained theoretical. But because you came and showed practical example, then everything has become very easy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Āpani ācārī prabhu jīvera śikṣāya. That is the way of teaching. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I've read some of your old Back to Godhead magazines, and actually you've been saying the same thing all along, with the same force also. Some of your critiques of Dr. Radhakrishna's Bhagavad*-gītā and modern science... Prabhupāda: You have read? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: "Scholars Deluded." Hari-śauri: Sometimes the devotees say that "Now Prabhupāda is preaching much more strongly than ever before." But then, when we read the old Back to Godheads, it's exactly the same. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even if we read the First Canto of *Bhāgavatam*... You translated that in India before you came. It's so powerful. (end) *Room Conversation-*-April 23, 1976, Melbourne Devotee (1): ...social welfare, and also he's minister for sport and recreation. He has come to see you, and this is his secretary. Guest: Well, I am very pleased to have the opportunity of meeting you. Prabhupāda: Sit down. Guest: How long have you been in Australia? Prabhupāda: Just up to Sunday. Monday we are going? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we were here on the twentieth of July. We'll be here until Monday. Guest: What's the main reason for your visit? Prabhupāda: Preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, about Kṛṣṇa. You have seen our books, our.... Show him. Devotee (1): Have you seen Prabhupāda's books? The books I was just showing you? Guest: I am not very familiar with the books. Prabhupāda: We have got very good response for accepting our books all over the world, Kṛṣṇa books. Guest: The reason that I was most interested to come is that my responsibilities in Victoria are a lot to do with the growth of our young people, and I think that many of the things that we don't succeed in doing, the problems that we have with drugs and alcohol and all sorts of unhappiness, that what your life indicates has got something that I think we could do well to take parts of it, to be involved in the things, the way in which we live. And I'd be interested to hear from you as to what you would believe might be done to encourage a greater acceptance of your areas of philosophy and religion. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our philosophy is to purify, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Our philosophy is to purify the core of the heart from all dirty things. This is basic principle of our philosophy, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, cleansing the core of the heart. So just this morning several boys and girls became initiated. So our first promise is, before the Deity, before the fire, before the Vaiṣṇavas, before the spiritual master, that from this day no more illicit sex, no more intoxication, no more meat-eating, no more gambling. This is the first initiation. Then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Very simple method. But one cannot practice these things without association of devotees. Nobody can do it outside. But here they are able; immediately they give up. All these boys, they were addicted to all these habits, but since they have come to the association, immediately they have given up, instantly. So you can bring any number of young men, and we shall be glad to make him free from all these things, practically engage him. It is open. If you like, you can take advantage. Guest: Yes. I am thinking more in terms of our general education system, for example. Prabhupāda: This is the best education. Our education begins when we learn to see all women as mother. That is the beginning of education. Guest: When we learn... Prabhupāda: It doesn't require Ph.D. degrees to train him in such a way that a person will see, except his married wife, all women as mother. Guest: Women as? Prabhupāda: All women. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: As mother. Guest: As mother. *Prabhupāda: Mother. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu. This is the original system of education in India, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, to think of all women except his own wife as mother. Para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat: "Others' money as the garbage in the street." Nobody touches the garbage. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu: "And one who sees all other living entities on the level of himself..." If you feel pinching, why should you pinch others? If one learns these three things, he is paṇḍita, he is learned. And another three things, When you accept Kṛṣṇa, or God.... When I say Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means God. God is the proprietor of everything. Just take for example the United Nation. They are going and making noise, full speeches, for the last fifty years, but the fighting is going on. But they do not.... Why do they not pass a resolution that "This earth planet..." Take.... Only take this earth planet, earthly planet. Other you leave aside. "This is the property of God, and we are all sons of God. Let us enjoy the property of the..." But you will not allow. You Australian, you have got so much land. You won't allow anybody to come because you think it is your land. Guest: Yes, I think, ah, if you're looking at the... Prabhupāda: No, no, this is the principle. Actually it is not your land. You come from Europe. Guest: I agree that it's not. *Prabhupāda: But you are now claiming it is your land. The Africans, they are claiming. So much land, you can produce ten times food grains for as many population as there are. Ten times milk is required, food grain is required. That is the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Guest: If we produced all of the foods that we could produce and we literally gave them away to other countries that need them, we'd produce a tremendous disincentive in those countries for their own production. I don't think it's as easy, the world... Prabhupāda: Production.... You take the total land as God's property, and all the population, they are sons of God. Then whole problem solved. Everything solved. If economic problem is solved, then social, political, religious, philosophical, everything is solved. Guest: If there was exchange for that money, I think you'd be right. Prabhupāda: No money required. No money required. Simply one is required to work to produce food grain. That's all. No money required. And God has given us so much land that we can produce food grain and we can keep cows' milk, and from milk we derive so many rich, nutritious, full of vitamins foodstuff that the whole economic question solved immediately. But we are producing.... Instead of food grain, we are producing tobacco for smoking cigarette. We are producing coffee for going to hell. So how you can expect social reformation? In Africa I have seen. Instead of producing grain, they are producing coffee, tea, and keeping the cows for killing, making business to sell meat to other countries. Guest: Is incense a form of intoxication? Prabhupāda: Incense? No. Why intoxication? Guest: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Incense keeps the atmosphere very nice, fresh. *Guest: Very sweet*-smelling. *Guru*-kṛpā: This flower is not intoxicating. Prabhupāda: It is just like in your country, what is that fragrance? Scent. Scent. *Guru*-kṛpā: Perfume? Prabhupāda: Perfume is very popular. Guest: But I would have thought that in some ways it might have perform the same sort of function for some people as, say, smoking some cigarettes performs for others. Prabhupāda: No. Guest: In other words, it... Prabhupāda: That depends on the particular man, what kind of flavor he wants. That is another thing. But there are different varieties of incense. Generally we use rose flavor, sandalwood flavor. We offer to the Deity room to keep the atmosphere very favorable. Originally in India it was dhūpa. They used to put in the fire some flavored hulls, and it was very nice. That has been transferred into now stick incense. Guest: The stricture on the eating of meat, does that derive from the fact that animals have their lives which are accorded... Prabhupāda: No, vegetable, vegetable has got life. Guest: Yes. What I'm asking is that because animals have a higher priority in life than vegetables? *Prabhupāda: No question of priority. Our philosophy is that we are servant of God. So God will eat, and whatever remnants of foodstuff He'll left, that we shall take. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā... You find out this verse. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Just like you have come here. So if I want to offer you something for eatable, it is my duty to ask you, "Mr. Nixon, which foodstuff you'll like to eat?" So you dictate, "I like this very much." Then, if I offer you that foodstuff, then you become pleased. So we have called Kṛṣṇa in this temple, so we are waiting, what foodstuff He wants to eat? So He said that... *Guru*-kṛpā: "If one offer me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it." Prabhupāda: Yes. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam. He is asking very simple thing which everyone can offer. Just like a little leaf, patram, a little flower, puṣpam, a little fruit, and little liquid, either water or ghee, er, milk. So we offer that. We make different varieties with these ingredients, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26], and after Kṛṣṇa's eating, we take it. We are servant; *we take the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. We are neither vegetarian nor nonvegetarian. We are prasād*-ian. We don't care for vegetable or not vegetable, because either you kill a cow or kill a vegetable, the sinful action is there. And according to nature's law, it is said that "The animals which has no hand, that is the food for the animals with hands." We are also animals with hands. We human being, we are also animal with hands, and they are animals-no hand but four legs. And there are animals which has no leg, that is vegetable. Apadāni catuṣ-padām. These animals which has no leg, they are food for the animals with four leg. Just like cow eats grass, the goat eats grass. So eating vegetable, there is no credit. Then the goats and the cows are more credit, have more credit, because they don't touch anything except vegetable. So we are not preaching to become goats and cows. No. We are preaching that you become servant of Kṛṣṇa. So whatever Kṛṣṇa eats, we eat. If Kṛṣṇa says that "Give me meat, give me eggs," so we shall offer Kṛṣṇa meat and eggs and we shall take it. So don't think that we are after vegetarian, nonvegetarian. No. That is not our philosophy. Because either you take vegetable or you take meat, you are killing. And you have to kill because otherwise you cannot live. That is nature's way. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we are not for that way. Guest: Well, why do you put the stricture on... *Prabhupāda: Stricture in this way, no meat*-eating, because cow protection is required. We require milk. And instead of taking milk, if we eat the cows, then where is milk? Guest: So milk is very important. Prabhupāda: Very, very important. Guest: In terms of production of food for the world, the world would be much better off without eating animals. Prabhupāda: No, milk is required. Some fatty vitaminous food is required. That necessity is supplied by milk. Therefore specifically... Guest: Couldn't you get all the necessity you require from grains? Prabhupāda: Grains, no. Grains, they are starch. According to medical science, we require four different groups: starch, carbohydrate, protein, and fat. That is full food. So you can get all these things by eating rice, dahl, mean pulses, and wheat, and.... These things contain.... Pulses and wheat contains protein. And milk also contains protein. So protein we require. Fat we get from milk. Fat is required. And vegetables, carbohydrate; and food grain, starch. So if you prepare nice foodstuff with all these ingredients, you get full..., and offer to Kṛṣṇa, then it's purified. Then you are free from all sinful activities. Otherwise, even if you kill vegetable, you are sinful because it has got life. You have no right to kill another life. But you have to live on life. This is your position. Therefore the solution is that you take prasādam. If there is sin by eating vegetable or meat it goes to the eater. We take the remnants, that's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You follow? Guest: Not exactly. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The food that we take is first offered to Kṛṣṇa in the temple, so Kṛṣṇa is the first to eat. And Kṛṣṇa demands that "You offer Me this particular source of foodstuff." So one becomes free from all sinful reactions by first offering to Kṛṣṇa the foodstuff. Not only are you eating, but also you become free from sinful reaction. Guest: I see. Prabhupāda: Don't think we are vegetarian. We can become anything, provided it is eaten from the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. This is our.... To become vegetarian.... There are many animals who are vegetarians. The monkeys are vegetarian; the goats are vegetarian; *the cows are vegetarian. So that is not a good qualification, to become vegetarian and become an animal. Or to become lion, tiger, dog. So either you are vegetarian or meat*-eater, there are many animals. So we are not going to be animals. We are going to become human being. This is our philosophy. Grouping ourself to the vegetarian kingdom or nonvege.... The animals.... The tiger is a great nonvegetarian. Fresh blood they want to eat, drink. Guest: Your Grace, do you keep in touch with the world through television or newspapers or the media? Prabhupāda: Yes, many newspaper, many television men, they come. But we speak our philosophy plainly. Guest: Do you watch TV yourself? Prabhupāda: No, we have no business. We don't wish to waste our time. Guest: Do you read newspapers? Prabhupāda: No. What is newspaper? "This man is killed. This man has stolen. This politician has captured the government." So why shall I waste time? Guest: How do you become informed as to certain events? Is that... Prabhupāda: We have got enough books to read, these books. If you read our books, in your whole lifetime you cannot finish it. And that is required to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is success of life. So why should.... Of course, we are in touch in the newspaper, but as much as it is required. We are in touch with the material world as much as it is required. We are interested in Kṛṣṇa. To help our Kṛṣṇa consciousness we may be in touch with the material world as much as possible. Just like we are riding car also, we are also using dictaphone, everything, but it is not for any ulterior purpose. It is for Kṛṣṇa's service. Just like we are writing books. This is Kṛṣṇa's service. People may understand about Kṛṣṇa, be benefited. This is our.... And in that way we are printing books, we are selling books, we are writing books. Guest: How many people are in the Kṛṣṇa movement in the world, about? Prabhupāda: About ten to twelve thousand, directly dedicated. Otherwise millions, they are reading our books. They have sympathy. We are selling books very nicely, daily twenty thousand dollar minimum all over the world. In learned circle, big, big universities, professors, they are appreciating. We have many congratulations. Guest: And the funds that you derive from the books... Prabhupāda: Book Trust. That is explained. Guest: ...are used within your congre..., within the people that live in... Prabhupāda: Yes. I make a Book Trust. That is my will, that from all the collection of the books fifty percent for reprinting and fifty percent for expanding these temples, these buildings. In this way. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We really don't require very much for our maintenance. As you can see, we live a very simple life. Prabhupāda: Just like these boys, they are practiced to sit down. We have kept two chairs for the visitors. (laughter) We don't require. We can lie down on the floor. We can use only one or two cloths, that's all, throughout the whole year. We have no demands, only bare necessities. We don't smoke, don't drink. There is no expenditure. Don't go to cinema, don't read newspaper or ordinary magazines, nothing. We have got reading matter. Practically we are noncooperating. Guest: Practically? Prabhupāda: Noncooperating. Guest: Noncooperating? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Practically. Guest: I don't understand that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because we are not engaged in so many of the superfluous or unnecessary... Prabhupāda: Material amenities. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These things are described in Vedic terms as anartha. They are not very important or very valuable to human advancement. What is really essential is advancement in knowledge. Guest: One of the principles upon which I have lived is a question of involvement with the people around me in trying to do things better than they have been done before. *Prabhupāda: But you must know first of all what is the aim of life and what is better. That we must know. So that is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, that we are not interested in God; *then whole thing is spoiled. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. We are not interested in God. We want to be happy by adjusting the external energy of God. That is blind leadership. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This will never be successful, and it is blind leadership because we do not know what is the aim. If you know the aim of life and if we make program according to that aim, then it will be successful. Blindly everyone is manufacturing his objective, different leaders, different isms. The Communists, they have got different aims. The capitalists, they have got different aims. The socialists, they have got different aims. Guest: Is it true that there are more young people now in the world that are giving more serious thought to what life is really all about? Prabhupāda: Yes, they should. Because they are being educated, they are experiencing the faults of their fathers and grandfathers. Guest: And they're able to tell that? Prabhupāda: So we are telling this is the aim. You take. And therefore more response from the younger section. All our devotees, they are just like my grandchildren. Their fathers may be like my children. But they are responsive. Guest: How do you spend a day? Prabhupāda: Day? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How do we.... What do we do during the day? What are our activities? *Prabhupāda: We have got activities day and night, but because the body is there, we have to eat, but we eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam. And naturally we go to sleep, to take some rest. Otherwise we are always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. We have no other business. So I go in the morning for little morning walk because the body, whole day if I sit down, it may be jammed. Therefore, for body's sake, I go for little walking. And then, whole day and night, I am sitting here, either chanting or writing books or talking with you, giving them direction. That's all. We have no other business than Kṛṣṇa's business. That is the peculiarity of this movement. Even if you take it is a religious movement, there is no religious movement in the whole world which has got twenty*-four hours' engagement. You'll never find. The Christians go to the church once in a week for one hour, then closed. That is also not very regularly. Even if you take.... Our engagement. Twenty-four hours. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Every day. *Prabhupāda: Every day. You can see how we are engaged twenty*-four hours. *Guru*-kṛpā: Prabhupāda gets up at one o'clock in the morning. Prabhupāda: Last night I woke up at half past twelve. (laughter) Yes. So on the whole, utmost, I sleep four hours, two hours at night and two hours in daytime. Guest: I must.... Your Grace, I'm most grateful to have seen you. I must depart. Thank you very much for having me here. Prabhupāda: Why, thank you for your coming. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him prasāda. *Guest: Good*-bye. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...misleader. But he himself has no character. So here it is open secret, to keep a beautiful girl as secretary, everywhere in Europe and America. So where is purity? Purity? Marriage is a taboo, and keep secretary is very good job. And you can get secretary even free of charge. Rather, she will pay. So this is going on. In Vedic civilization marriage is one of the important function of life. As death is important function, birth is important function, similarly, marriage is also important function. Janma*-mṛtyu-vivāha. So in this age everywhere, not only.... The marriage is now farce. This is the symptom of Kali-yuga. There will be no more marriage. Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Even there is marriage, there will be simply an agreement. That is happening, and it was written five thousand years ago. Svīkāra eva. Svīkāra means by agreement, signing agreement. No marriage function. Otherwise marriage is a.... According to Vedic system, if one has got some money, he will spend the money in three functions. When the child is born, very gorgeously he will spend money, give in charity. Always in the Bhāg... Nanda Mahārāja is giving in charity cows and money, and Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja is giving. Kṛṣṇa, as family man, He was giving in charity. So when the child is born, the horoscope is made, and to make the child happy, blessings of saintly persons, brāhmaṇas, they are given. Ordinary men also sumptuously fed. So bhūribhiḥ.(?) Everyone gives some blessings so that the child is.... Then marriage. During marriage time.... You have seen Kṛṣṇa's mother's marriage? That was the system. The father gives to his heart content, as much as possible, to the daughter. The Kṛṣṇa's mother was royal prince, so her father gave so many elephants, so many horses, so many chariots. That was the system. [break] This śrāddha ceremony. That is also, feeding the learned brāhmaṇas, saintly person, poor man, relative. Lavishly they spend money during three occasions: birth, death, and marriage. During birth the father spends; the marriage, father spends; and death, the son spends. This is the system. So social reformation, but there is no idea how the society will be happy. There is no idea. They are trying to remove this intoxication, LSD, but do not see the cause why LSD has come. They do not try to stop that cause. When the cause is effective, then they are disturbed with the effect. This is the defect. Neither they'll take advice. So how they'll be able to.... Big, big officer, drawing high salary, that's all. There is no effect. Neither there can be any effect. It is not possible. They do not know. Neither they want it. So we are advocating, "Remove these four sinful activities," so nobody will agree. "Illicit sex is our life, to keep a friend, to keep a secretary." And we are advising, "No illicit sex." Then where is life? That's all. Devotee (2): They say, "Why should I live if I can't do these things?" Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): One devotee in New Zealand, his father was dying of leukemia. He told his father to stop eating meat and smoking cigarettes, and his health would improve. His father said, "If I can't do these things, what is the use of living?" Prabhupāda: So somebody should.... [break] ...committed suicide? Hari-śauri: Ernest Hemingway. Ernest Hemingway. When he found out, when the doctor told him he couldn't have sex life anymore, he killed himself. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He was a very big and rich author. Prabhupāda: This is the important men. *Guru*-kṛpā: That one Marwari spent eighteen lakhs of rupees. Prabhupāda: I do not know eighteen lakhs, but I know he went to Germany for medical operation and changing the gland with monkey's gland. Yes. He was eighty years old at that time. Devotee (2): The leaders are so infected. There was an article recently... Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. That is already dictated by Bhāgavata. These leaders, rascals who are blind, and they are trying to lead other blind men. All of them are falling in the ditch. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the case of Mahārāja Veṇa there was some recourse for the brāhmaṇas. What can we do? *Prabhupāda: Yes, brāhmaṇas were controlling the kṣatriyas. They were obeying the instruction of brāhmaṇas. That is social function. The first*-class man will give instruction to the government, and the government will carry the order, "Whether people are actually doing this?" Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. And vaiśya will produce food grain and milk sufficiently. And the śūdras, they will help these three higher classes. That's all. This is social system. [break] The brāhmaṇas, they will be always engaged to make plan how people will be successful in the aim of life. And that will be executed through the kṣatriyas. And the vaiśyas will supply foodstuff. Food is also required. And good government is required, and nice direction is required. This is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. And śūdra, they have no brain; *they will abide by the orders of these higher sections, that's all. So our movement is creating first*-class brāhmaṇa, and the kṣatriyas, if they abide by our instruction-our instruction means Kṛṣṇa's instruction-then everything will be nicely done. Sannyāsīs, they have begun to keep secretaries. *Guru*-kṛpā: Yogi Bhajan. *Prabhupāda: So many. This tail, dog's tail. Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha or anything, the tail is this side. You may grease it as much as possible, but the whole tendency is sex, that's all, in different dresses only. The objective is sex. This is going on. Some of them are openly declaring that "I am for sex," and some of them showbottle. But the objective is sex. This is the whole world. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha [SB 7.9.45]. And the sannyāsīs like Rajneesh, they are advocating, "This is life-sex. By sex indulgence you get salvation." These Brahma-kumārīs. Not brahmacārī but Brahma-kumārī. Kumārīs are available very easily. And they keep. And the rich men, they are supplied with nice, beautiful kumārīs. They pay money. This is going on. Brahma-kumārī. They enjoy and they invite the karmīs to enjoy and get money. Kumārī is there; money is there, that's all. Everywhere this is going on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This just came from Los Angeles along with some other things. They're having an international yoga and meditation conference in Chicago in June, and Rāmeśvara was wanting to know if we should send some of our preachers there, try and have some kind of a booth or take part in it. Prabhupāda: If it is possible. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is sponsored by the Himalayan International Institute of Yoga Science and Philosophy, Swami Rama from the Himalayas. Prabhupāda: Bogus. He's a bogus. Then don't take part. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's many.... It's costing fifteen dollars for people to get in. Prabhupāda: So we are not going to give. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most.... I have looked over the people who are speaking. Most of them are from this society. It seems what they've done, they've taken some of the big bhogīs in America like Satchidananda and others, and they've invited them to draw bigger crowds. So they're taking this opportunity for money. I think we'll probably sell books there, anyway. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'm sure that our devotees will sell books. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can have a book stall. *Guru*-kṛpā: Outside, though. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Somehow or another. *Guru*-kṛpā: We usually do outside. *Prabhupāda: There is no use taking part in that meeting. Simply take a book stall. "Bhakti*-yoga books." Give a signboard, "Bhakti-yoga books." And give the picture of Dhruva Mahārāja, five-years-old boy, executing bhakti-yoga alone in the forest. We have got meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. That is real yoga. And Bhagavad-gītā, yoginām api... These ślokas, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā [Bg. 6.47]. One who's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, he is first-class yogi. Give one picture of the devotees chanting in a very nice place, and give evidence, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā: "This, first-class yogi. Here is first-class yogi." That will be our preaching. Dhruva Mahārāja is practicing yoga. There are many others. The highest perfection is Rādhārāṇī, that simply crying, "Kṛṣṇa has gone to Mathurā, not coming back." That is the..., the whole day and night crying. Who can perform this yoga? So if you, if possible, draw pictures.... Satchidananda, he is also a leader? He has? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: Yogi Bhajan Prabhupāda: Yogi Bhajan also? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kriyananda, Swami Nada Brahmananda from Hrishikesh, Swami Ajaya, Ph.D., from Madison, Wisconsin. (laughter) It's a small college town in America. Yogi Bhajan? There's many others. A lot of Indian doctors from Canada, India and America. Prabhupāda: So you can give yogi import that "Hare Kṛṣṇa is the greatest of all yoga systems." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Topmost yoga. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And quote from Bhagavad*-gītā. Show pictures. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to take your massage now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? [break] Guest (2): ...interesting. I see Elder Forester(?) in myself. We feel that we're called to God through a living prophet ourselves. And our feeling is in our own hearts we feel that we have a living feeling in what we call a testimony of Christ. And we feel that he is our savior and that he did atone for the sins of the world. And we were wondering what your feelings were about this. Prabhupāda: Our feeling is direct, carrying the orders of God. The direct orders are there, and we have to carry. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], favorably to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means God. Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa means God. *Prabhupāda: So favorably. What God says, "You do it"*-we have to do. Guest (2): Great. Okay, supposing when you die, how will there.... Will there be another man of your sort who people would look to, like these here? Prabhupāda: Many. Anyone who will carry out the order, he'll be prominent. Guest (2): Oh, I see. So you just carry the order out fully. Prabhupāda: And I teach my students to carry out. So anyone who will carry out the orders strictly, he will be perfect. Guest (2): What do you feel is the greatest order of God? Prabhupāda: To surrender unto Him. Guest (2): Pardon? Prabhupāda: To surrender to Him. Devotee (4): Surrender. Guest (2): Surrender, oh. I think you're.... I believe that. It's interesting. Our prophet, when he passes on, we believe that another prophet will be called in his place by God to carry on. Prabhupāda: "By God" means.... Anyone who will carry out the order of God without any change, he is prophet. Guest (3): I have a question. Do you know much of Mormonism? Prabhupāda: No. Guest (3): No. Could I just share one experience, and I'd like your feeling on this. This is one thing that, the reason that we come throughout the world, and that is that we believe that in the year 1820 that there was a young man, Joseph Smith, who was confused about religion. And in this confused state he sought the Bible, and he read James 1:5, and the inspiration was to go seek God and ask Him in prayer. And in his prayer he had an experience where God the father and His son Jesus Christ appeared to him. Now, see this is what we base our religion about, is that a young man saw God and was visited by Him and His son Jesus Christ, and through him They used him as an instrument in restoring His true church. Now that's our testimony, and we believe this with all of our heart. We feel that it's built upon the spirit and that it's through prayer and study that we've found this. Now, what's your feeling about that? Prabhupāda: No, if he has seen God, then God has given him some message. Guest (3): Right. Prabhupāda: What is that message? Guest (4): We believe that the message that God gave him was that the true church was not on the earth, and we believe that through Joseph Smith the true gospel of Jesus Christ was once again restored to the earth with all its power, with all its authority, and with the holy priesthood. Prabhupāda: So Jesus Christ is authorized. Guest (4): Yes, Jesus Christ... Prabhupāda: So what is the order of Jesus Christ? Guest (4): We believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's right, but what Jesus Christ says? Devotee (4): What does Jesus Christ say? What is Jesus Christ saying? What are his instructions? Guest (3): Well, Jesus Christ, we believe that when he lived as a mortal man, he organized the church, and the people followed him... Prabhupāda: What is the instruction? *Guest (3): The instructions to Joseph Smith was, well, in a ten*-year period of time, from 1820 to 1830 many things happened to Joseph Smith. One thing was that he was visited by an angel called Moronai, who lived fourteen hundred years earlier in the Americas, and he was a prophet, and he wrote a book and sealed it away, and it was written on gold plates. Joseph Smith translated this ancient work of Egyptian hieroglyphics into English, and it was called the Book of Mormon after a great prophet. Prabhupāda: So what is the message? *Guest (3): Well, the message is that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter*-Day Saints is the kingdom of God. Prabhupāda: So what is the church of Jesus Christ? Guest (3): Well, Jesus Christ's church, that's simply it. Prabhupāda: What is that? What does he say, that "You do this. You do not do this"? Guest (3): I don't understand what... Guest (4): You mean the Commandments and... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (4): Oh. There's many Commandments in the church. We believe that Jesus Christ commanded Joseph Smith to restore the church. Prabhupāda: No, what is the Commandments? Guest (4): This is one of them, that the church should be run by a prophet and twelve apostles. We believe in what is called the word of wisdom. This is abstaining.... This is much like your... Prabhupāda: Church. Church means.... Suppose.... There is no specific message that "The church should be conducted on this principle"? Is there any such message? Guest (3): I think that the real thing is people have to accept Christ as their savior and make his atonement effective. See, when he made his atonement... Prabhupāda: What about his Commandments? Guest (3): Well, his Commandments are.... We believe that Christ gave them to Moses as a... Prabhupāda: So what are the Commandments? You simply say, "It was given to him, it was given to him, it was given..." Guest (3): The Ten Commandments? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): Those Commandments we follow? We believe Commandments of living the Sabbath Day, law of chastity... Prabhupāda: So whether they are being followed? Guest (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: Chastity is being followed? Guest (3): Yes. The church teaches it, and people who do not obey it are bringing condemnation upon themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my injunct..., that if.... The commandment is that women should be chaste. Guest (3): Exactly. Prabhupāda: And you should not kill. But all the Christians are killing. Guest (3): Well... Prabhupāda: And it is very hard to find out a woman chaste. Guest (3): That's true. Prabhupāda: Then where is Christian? Guest (3): Well, see, this is the great thing of the atonement. See, when Christ suffered the sins of the world on Gethsemane... Prabhupāda: So why for your sin Christ should suffer? Guest (3): Christ suffered for my sins. Prabhupāda: Yes, why? Guest (3): Well, because he loved us and he was the only begotten son of God. Prabhupāda: That means you'll go on committing sins and Christ will suffer? Guest (3): No, see Christ only forgives when you repent. See what I mean? See, this is the thing I want to say... Prabhupāda: But this has become a business, that I commit sin and repent. "We believe, I repent, and again I commit sin." Do you think it is very good business? Guest (3): Well, see this is the thing. Christianity has made it a business. So what we're saying is we... Prabhupāda: That means they are not Christians. Guest (3): That's right. Prabhupāda: So then where is Christian? Guest (3): Well, the Christian world that the majority of the people think is... Prabhupāda: Majority is not the calculation. Minority. If one person carries out the order of Christ, then he is Christian. Guest (3): Exactly. Prabhupāda: Otherwise they are not Christians. Guest (3): That's right. But I just wanted to say one thing... *Prabhupāda: Our principle is that if one person carries out the order of God, he is actually the prophet. If he does not carry out-simply by dress he is prophet*-it is useless. Guest (3): I see. All right. We have a little different feeling about that. Prabhupāda: Why it should be different? Guest (3): Well, we would... Prabhupāda: If you [are] actually the servant of God, you must carry out the orders of God. There cannot be difference. If there is difference, that means you are no longer servant of God. Guest (3): Well, we feel that God has always had prophets and called them Himself, as he called Mike Aran.(indistinct) Prabhupāda: But how the prophet can disobey the original orders of God or Christ? Guest (4): How can a prophet disobey? We don't.... A prophet doesn't disobey. We believe that the prophet at the head of our church, Spencer W. Kimble, speaks with God... Prabhupāda: That's nice. Guest (3): And he conveys His messages on to us as church members and on to the rest of the world. Prabhupāda: My point is.... Just like the two points here: chastity and nonviolence. But this is not being carried out. Guest (3): Well, we agree. Prabhupāda: Then where is the prophet and where is the followers? Guest (3): Well, see, the prophet is teaching the people about this and teaching them to live it. Prabhupāda: That means people are not obeying the prophet. Guest (3): Well, people are. We are. Prabhupāda: Then how it is said that.... How they are killing animals? How the women are unchaste? Guest (4): All people aren't following the prophet. All people in your belief aren't following you completely. *Prabhupāda: That is very nice. My point is that if we follow God*-God's message is carried by prophet, and prophet if obeyed by the people-then the religion is in order. Otherwise it is a bogus religion. Guest (3): Well, I think we would agree there. Prabhupāda: We must follow; then it is all right. We don't follow, and still we rubberstamp, "I am Christian. I am this. I am that." This is the disease. Guest (3): Would you agree that Christ is the greatest master of all? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We accept him as our guru. Guest (3): What is the... Prabhupāda: Guru means prophet, yes. Guest (3): What about a savior? Prabhupāda: Savior? Who saves the followers from the danger of materialistic way of life, which means transmigration of the soul from one body to another. Guest (3): Do you believe in a resurrection? Prabhupāda: Resurrection? What do you mean actually? But it is a fact that one, the soul, is changing from one body to another. Guest (4): That's what.... We agree. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like you are young man. You had a body of a child. That child's body.... You remember that you had a body of a child, but that body is no longer existing. But you remember; therefore you, the owner of the body, is existing. Otherwise how do you remember, "I had a body like, like this," measurement? But that body is no longer existing, so you are remembering. So you are the owner of the body. Just like you have now black coat. Say after two days you may put on another color coat, but you remember that "I was putting on one black coat on that day." So you are existing; the coat is changed. Similarly, the soul is existing; the body is changed. Therefore it is natural that I am old man. When I change this body, I get another body. This is resurrection, if you say. Guest (3): I believe that, yes. That's what we believe put in a philosophical way. Prabhupāda: It is not belief, it is fact. You believe or not believe, it will take place. Guest (4): Yes, that's right, it will take place. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (4): We just see it differently. We believe that after this life we'll be resurrected into a glorified, perfect body of flesh and bones and... Prabhupāda: That's nice. That we say. We say twice, that.... Just last night I was discussing that this human form of life is to make our choice, whether we are going to get a body back to home, back to Godhead, or again we are going in the cycle of birth and death. This is our choice. If we act according to the orders of God, then we go to Him, back to home, back to Godhead. And if we still whimsically act, then I go again in the cycle of birth and death. That's a fact. Guest (3): Well, we.... See, we desire and strive to follow out the orders of God. Prabhupāda: That is perfection of life. But if we don't do that, then we are going again to the evolutionary process... Guest (4): That's right. Prabhupāda: ...of birth and death. It will depend on my action. Guest (3): Exactly. Will you agree with this point, that we are not perfect? Prabhupāda: Well, anyone who follows the order of God, he is perfect. Otherwise all are... Guest (3): Can you be completely perfect and follow the orders perfectly? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Just like what is the order of God? God wants that "You shall always think of Me, 'The God is my Supreme Father.' " So what is the difficulty? Now, if you think, "God is the Supreme. God is the Supreme Father," if you think like that, where is the difficulty? Guest (4): We believe that God is Supreme, He is like you say. But we believe we are constantly striving to become perfect, every day. Prabhupāda: No, why constantly striving? God says that "You think of Me." So where is my difficulty to think of Him unless I am disobedient? I can think of God always. There is no difficulty. There is no expenditure. There is no disadvantage. But if I am rascal, I'll disobey. That is the.... If I am rascal, then I will disobey. I will not think of God. I'll think of something else. Guest (3): Well, this is.... I guess you have a different... Prabhupāda: Why different? Guest (3): ...concept of Christ because we... Prabhupāda: No, no, Christ said that "You accept me as the Supreme." So why the people do not accept him as the Su...? Guest (3): Well, we accept him, but, see, he had to be a savior... Prabhupāda: But you accept him in this way, that "Let me commit all kinds of nonsense, and Christ will suffer." Guest (3): No, no. We don't.... See, we believe... Prabhupāda: Do the Christians not think like that? *Guru*-kṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: They think like that. *Guru*-kṛpā: "Christ has died for our sins," but they continue to sin. Guest (3): Yes, many people do. But see, what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that I... Prabhupāda: You are.... Individually it is all right. But people think like that, that "Christ has taken contract..." Guest (3): Well, they're wrong. Prabhupāda: "...that whatever nonsense we do, he will suffer, and let us do it." Guest (3): We will have to suffer if we do not repent. See, we have a scripture that... Prabhupāda: And they say Christ will suffer. Guest (3): He has already suffered. Prabhupāda: But they say, still they will suffer. Therefore Christian religion is... Guest (3): He has suffered... Prabhupāda: The Christian people say like that, that "We cannot become pious. We.... Let us go on doing all nonsense, and Christ will suffer." Is that very good? Guest (3): I agree with you, see. I really do. But what I'm saying is I believe that we're not all perfect, and we're working for perfection. Prabhupāda: No, no, I say that what is the difficulty to become perfect? Guest (3): Well, we have to learn and... Prabhupāda: That means we are nonsense. If there is no difficulty to become perfect and still we remain imperfect, that means we are nonsense. Guest (3): I see, well, okay. *Prabhupāda: That means you are first*-class nonsense. Guest (3): I see. All right, well... Prabhupāda: Where is the difficulty? Christ's picture is there. Suppose we have got our picture, Kṛṣṇa. So all right, don't believe in Kṛṣṇa. But you have got picture of Christ, and you can see that he is being crucified. The cross is your symbol. Guest (4): We don't worship the dead Christ. Prabhupāda: You may not, but Christians.... The Christians, they put the cross, a reminder that "Christ suffered for us." This is the cross. So we became sinful, and the Lord, he suffered for us. We should stop this sinful activity. That is sanity. But "Christ will suffer, he'll be repeatedly crucified, and we shall go on with our nonsense activity." Is that religion? Guest (3): Well, I agree with you there. Prabhupāda: So that is the point. Guest (3): But I have a different thought and feeling. Prabhupāda: You may have, but we are talking on the principle that if we are so base and fallen down that we go on committing sinful life and "Christ will be crucified; I'll be saved," that way is said, what kind of religion? "One should continually suffer for my sin, and I am free to act sinfully." Is that religion? Guest (3): Well, we don't believe that Christ continues to suffer. Prabhupāda: No, but the Christians do that. They are maintaining.... Christ says, "Thou shall not kill," and they are maintaining thousands of killing house, and still they are passing on as Christian. Guest (3): Well, they're wrong. Prabhupāda: That is the point. Guest (3): I agree with you. Prabhupāda: So you should tell them. Guest (3): Well, we are. That's what we're here for. Prabhupāda: Yes, that "You are not Christian. Don't call yourself as Christian. You are persistently disobeying, beginning..." Christ said, "Thou shall not kill," and the Christians began killing Christ, crucifying Christ. And that is going on still, in large scale, and they are still Christian. The Pope is eating meat and.... I do not wish to say so many things. These are going on, and still, they are Christians. What can I say? Guest (3): Do you believe that... Prabhupāda: It is not a question of believe or not believe. We are talking of fact. Guest (3): Well, okay. Would, say, the cutting down of a plant, vegetable.... You are killing the growth there. Is that a living matter? Prabhupāda: Killing means that you have to eat something. Our philosophy is that we cannot stop killing, but there is no unnecessary killing. Guest (3): We agree. We only kill for what we need. Prabhupāda: Yes. But you.... Just like in.... Just a minute before, I ate so many nice fruits. So these fruits are meant for human being. Why shall I eat meat? *Guru*-kṛpā: The same grain. Devotee (4): It was Mormon scripture that said also, I read it, God is speaking, and He requests not to eat meat except in times of famine and starvation. Guest (4): That's right. Devotee (4): But the Mormons don't do that. They still eat meat. *Guru*-kṛpā: You're feeding the cow, the beef, grains which you could eat. Devotee (4): What does the cow eat? Grains. *Guru*-kṛpā: You are feeding the beef grains to fatten it for slaughter, but you could eat the same grains and be healthy. Guest (2): That's true. And we have many people who are in the church who strive to teach people of the church to eat more grains and milk products and... *Guru*-kṛpā: That is not the point Śrīla Prabhupāda is making. Prabhupāda: No, point is that every living being has to eat another living being. That is the law of nature. Guest (2): Right. *Prabhupāda: Jivo jīvasya jīvanam. That we admit. But in the human form of life if one thinks-now they are eating*-that "Another living being is my food, so I kill my own child and eat," so you mean to say to apply the same law, that "A living entity is food for another living entity. Therefore a human being kill his own child and eat?" Guest (2): Well, see, we... Prabhupāda: "Discrimination is the best part of valor." So you have to eat something, but if you have got grains, vegetables, milk, very nice preparation, why should you kill cow? Guest (2): Well, we believe that the Lord ordained that food for man, and that He even said in scripture to the prophet... Prabhupāda: So He said? He ordained cow for your food? Guest (2): He ordained meat. Yes. Devotee (4): But only in times of starvation and famine. Guest (2): Well, the matter.... It also said... Devotee (4): That is the word of wisdom in the Mormon scripture. Guest (2): I don't want to get in contentions about it, but the scripture also says that who abstains from meat is not ordained of God. So you can take it whatever way you want. Prabhupāda: What is that? "One who abstains from meat"? *Guest (2): Well, he's trying to say that the Mormons overeat meat. And all I'm saying is, well, the scripture which was revealed to the modern*-day prophet Joseph Smith was that "Whoever.... Who does abstained from meat is not ordained of God." And I have no intentions to get contentious about it. So all I'm saying is I'm honored to be here, and it's good to be here. Prabhupāda: No, no, the point is that in the Commandment it is clearly said, "Thou shall not kill." So what does it mean? That unless there is absolute necessity, we shall not kill. Guest (2): I think that's right, and I feel that way. *Prabhupāda: So when.... At least in America or any civilized country, there is ample food for human being. Why they should kill? If you can live without killing cows, if you can utilize cows in a different way.... Just like we are maintaining a farm*-not one, many. They are maintaining cows and we are getting enough milk. And from milk we can prepare varieties of palatable, vitaminous, nutritious food. And that is very, very enjoyable. So let the animal live and take the milk, and just like we.... None of us, we take meat, but we are not dying. We are having so many nice preparation from milk, from grains, from fruit. Besides that, our another principle is that we offer to God. So God said that "Give Me vegetables, milk," like that. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. So we offer these things, and we take the leftover. That is our principle. We are not after killing or not killing. We are simply after obeying the orders of Kṛṣṇa. That is our. So Kṛṣṇa says, "Give Me food from the vegetables." So we offer Him very nice, palatable dishes and eat. This is our principle. So even while eating, we remember God: "Kṛṣṇa has so nicely eaten this. Let me take the remnants." So while eating, we are remembering God. So if God said that "You remember Me always," we can do it. He has explained how to remember Him. He said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya: [Bg. 7.8] "I am the taste of the water." So when you drink.... Who is not drinking water? At least three times, four times we drink water, everyone. So when you drink, and the water quenches your thirst, and you feel some taste nice, Kṛṣṇa says, God says, "I am that taste." So where is my difficulty to remember God? If you simply remember this formula, that "The taste of the water is Kṛṣṇa," immediately you remember Kṛṣṇa. Prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. "I am the shining of the sun, shining of the moon." So who does not see the shining of the sun and the moon? At night you see the shining of moon, and day you see.... So where is the chance of forgetting God? There is no chance at all. As soon as you see the sunshine even, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." As soon as see the moonshine, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." As soon as you taste water, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." So in this way there is list that you cannot avoid the chance of remembering Kṛṣṇa. Every moment, every time, you can remember Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa, God, says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: "You always think of Me." So where is my difficulty to think of Kṛṣṇa? Unless I purposefully do not do it. It is not that when I go to the church and temple I can remember. I can remember Him twenty-four hours. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Guest (2): I think that's right, and I think that many people I know personally are what you say Kṛṣṇa conscious. They think of God and Christ twenty*-four hours a day too. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is wanted. Guest (2): And... *Prabhupāda: That is wanted. We obey the orders of Christ*-we think of always-then we are perfect. Either Christ, the son of God, or God, Kṛṣṇa, the same thing. God and son of God, they are not different. Guest (3): We were wondering if we could give you a personal gift that means a lot to us. We've got a Book of Mormon with us, and I don't know if you have one. Prabhupāda: No. Guest (3): But we feel that it's a scripture written by ancient people who lived in the South and Central American continents from the years 600 B.C. to A.D. 400. And we thought that this was kind of a special opportunity, and we didn't know if you had one. And we were wondering if we could leave you one. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can leave. Guest (3): Great. I've got it right here. We don't want to take too much more of your time. We'll leave you our card. Would that be all right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): It's been a very enjoyable experience. Prabhupāda: No, you can give one book, *Īśopaniṣad*. *Guru*-kṛpā: Can you take one of our books? Guest (3): Fine. It would be an honor. *Guru*-kṛpā: We'll read this. We promise to read this if you promise to read that. Guest (3): Fine. Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of... *Guru*-kṛpā: Because he has read. Prabhupāda: So you can read one of the best portion from this book. Guest (3): Pardon me? Prabhupāda: Recite the best portion. Of course, everywhere is best. Still... Guest (3): All right. Let me think for one moment. (pause) Let me read just a couple verses here, and then I'll read a few more here. "Believe in God..." (to other Mormon:) Would you read this? Guest (4): I'm tired and my voice is tired. Guest (3): These two verses. Guest (4): "Believe in God, believe that He is and that..." Prabhupāda: "Believe that"? Guest (4): "That He is." Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (4): "...both in heaven and in earth. Believe that He has all wisdom and all power both in heaven and in earth. Believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend. And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them and humble yourselves before God and ask Him sincerely of heart that He will forgive you. And now, if you believe all these things, see that you do them. And again I say unto you, as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of His goodness and have tasted of His love and have received the remission of your sins, which causes such exceeding great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember and always retain in remembrance the greatness of God and your own nothingness, and His goodness and long suffering towards you unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come which was spoken by the mouth of the angel." Prabhupāda: So it is very nice. But.... Let me see that book. Hari-śauri: There was one section there that mentions about chanting the name. Devotee (4): "Calling on the name of the Lord daily." Hari-śauri: This is very close to what we teach, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Eleven? Guest (4): Eleven, at the bottom. *Prabhupāda: "And again I say unto you, as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if you have known of His goodness and have tasted of His love and have received a remission of your sins, which causes such exceeding great joy in your souls, even so, I would that ye should remember..." No, the things are very nice. That soul is admitted. "Your soul"*-soul is admitted. That sinful activities are admitted. Goodness of God is admitted. So there is no difference between this gospel and other religious book. This is the principle. The point is what are the sins? Unless you know what are the sins, how you can avoid sins? Guest (2): You can't. You have to know. Prabhupāda: So what are the sins? That is the point. Guest (2): Well, when you disobey His orders, and He's got many commandments, and they are in the book. Prabhupāda: So therefore I was raising that question, that anyone who is not obeying the Ten Commandments of the Christian religion, then how he's a Christian? Guest (2): How is he a Christian? Prabhupāda: Yes, if he does not obey. Guest (2): If he does not obey them he is breaking the orders of God. Prabhupāda: So then these question do not arise at all, because he does not know what are sins and what are to be avoided and how to love God. These things required. There is a process. Just like if you want to love a girl or a girl wants to love you, there is a process. Unless there is no love. If you do not follow the process.... Suppose.... These are the general principles. If you love somebody you give something, some presentation. That you have given me, the presentation. It is a question of love. You are not giving to anyone, but you have got some love. So you give something to God. The first question of love is that "What you are giving to God?" Guest (2): What am I giving to God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Well, I want to give everything... Prabhupāda: No, no. You want to, but practically what you are giving? Guest (2): What am I giving now? Prabhupāda: Yes. I mean to say, anyone. Here.... Here is a process. Just like in our temple they have dedicated everything to God, the life. Guest (2): Well, we likewise went through a temple, a sacred place, and in there we have made covenants to give everything. Prabhupāda: So love of God means six things. This is the difference between other literature and Vedic literature. Here it is said, "love of God," but in the Vedic literature you will find the process of love, *Nine different processes. First of all you should hear about the glories of God, śravaṇam. Then you should preach the glories of God. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. You should always remember God, smaraṇam. Pāda*-sevanam: you should worship the Lord by worshiping, giving service to His lotus feet. But if God is imperson, where is feet? And if God is no form, then how you can remember Him? Guest (2): We believe God has form. Prabhupāda: Yes. But, then next question will be "What is the form?" Guest (2): We believe in a man, form of a man, flesh and bone, glorified and perfected. Prabhupāda: So you believe that man is God? Guest (2): Not man is God. Prabhupāda: Then? God is like man. You mean to say the form of God is like man? *Guru*-kṛpā: No, flesh and bone. Guest (2): Flesh and bone, glorified and perfected. *Guru*-kṛpā: Matter. God has a material body. Guest (2): Of glory and perfection. Prabhupāda: No, no, how do you glorify the flesh and bone? It is very hard? It is very nice to eat? Is that glorification? Guest (2): It's not difficult, I don't.... My feeling.... God... Prabhupāda: You don't bring your feeling. I mean to say, you must bring scriptural order. How do you glorify flesh and bone? Guest (2): Well, Christ brought that about in the resurrection, when he was resurrected. Prabhupāda: How do you say? Practically say that how you glorify a lump of flesh and piece of bone? That is my question. What is the glorification of a lump of flesh and a piece of bone? Guest (2): God can do it. That's all I can say. Prabhupāda: You cannot do it. Can? Guest (2): I cannot. Prabhupāda: Then? Guest (2): But God can. Prabhupāda: Then we do not... Devotee (4): The question is, "How can we glorify God if He's made of flesh and bone?" Guest (2): How can we glorify God? Guest (4): There's a little bit of communication gap here. You don't quite understand our thoughts, and we... *Guru*-kṛpā: We understand. He just asked you. Guest (2): And we don't quite understand yours. *Guru*-kṛpā: He asked you, how do you worship a piece of flesh and piece of bone? Guest (2): It's a piece of glorified flesh and a piece of glorified bone. *Guru*-kṛpā: How is flesh glorified? Guest (2): It's perfect. *Guru*-kṛpā: Flesh means material, temporary, imperfect. Guest (2): I'm not perfect. This is not temporary. Prabhupāda: So you bring some flesh from slaughterhouse and glorify it. Guest (2): Could I ask a question? I was told, if I'm not right, that down there in a section of your temple you worship the workmanship of flesh. A man made it. Prabhupāda: We never do that. Who told you? Who is the rascal? Guest (2): Well, it was one of your followers. *Guru*-kṛpā: He's interpreting that to be the Deity. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-kṛpā: That is his interpretation of the Deity. Prabhupāda: Of Deity? *Guru*-kṛpā: That is his interpretation of what is the Deity, that it is man-made, matter. Guest (2): Is it? *Prabhupāda: You do think that, that the form of God is man*-made? Guest (2): Well, all I can.... I just.... That's my feeling. Prabhupāda: That may be your feeling, but that does not mean that is our feeling. Guest (2): Well, okay. Your feeling does not mean that our feeling is wrong. Prabhupāda: No, no, we don't say. I am simply asking that how do you glorify flesh and bone? I do not know. I am asking you. Guest (2): I don't know. God knows, is what I'm saying. Prabhupāda: How is that? You do not know your system of glorification? Guest (2): Well, glorification comes... *Prabhupāda: I am asking-I am a layman*-that you say "glorified flesh and bone," but you say, "I don't know." Guest (4): Can I ask a question? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (4): Do you consider.... Is it your Deity? Do you consider that glorified? Prabhupāda: No, the Deity is the form of the Lord, but when you say, "the bone and flesh," so how we can accept as Deity? Guest (4): Now, you say that the Deity is the form of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (4): Now you've also... Prabhupāda: Also here is. Here is the Deity. Guest (2): No, that's an angel called Moronai. Prabhupāda: "Angel," but you cannot dishonor him. Guest (2): It's in honor of him. Prabhupāda: You honor him. Guest (2): No. Prabhupāda: Then why you put this? Guest (4): It's just a picture. Prabhupāda: Oh, you don't honor him. Guest (4): Don't honor him. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of picture? (laughter) Guest (4): Could I ask you another question? Could I ask you another question? You've been hitting on some of the Ten Commandments tonight like "Thou shall not kill." Now, if you believe the Ten Commandments like that, it also says in there that you shouldn't worship idols, bow down to idols. Prabhupāda: Yes, we don't worship idol. We worship God. Guest (2): Well, we just have a.... We don't need to discuss. Prabhupāda: Just like here is the picture of God. As you say, this picture is not important, but we say it is important because it is picture of God. Because it is important, therefore you have given the picture. Guest (3): Well, we say that that picture is important because it's in commemoration or something of... Prabhupāda: Anyway, you offer some honor. Otherwise why do you give this picture? Guest (2): Honor, not worship. *Guru*-kṛpā: They put this on the top of their temples. Guest (2): On one, two of them. *Guru*-kṛpā: I have seen in Salt Lake City. Guest (2): Salt Lake City and... Prabhupāda: No, no, anywhere, top of.... Here you are giving a particular picture. That means... *Guru*-kṛpā: Gold and silver. Guest (2): That's right. Prabhupāda: Stop. That means you have got respect. Guest (2): We have respect. We do not worship. Prabhupāda: That means that respect is partial. Our process is whomever we respect, we worship him. That is more perfect. Guest (2): Well, all right. That's fine. Prabhupāda: That is perfection. If you respect somebody you must worship him. Just like.... Nowadays it has become a fashion. I don't.... That is European fashion, that you respect some gentleman, political or social, who has done good service to your country, but you keep him in a public park and the crows are passing stool on his head. Hari-śauri: Make a statue. Prabhupāda: Statue. Hari-śauri: If you want to glorify some great personality. Prabhupāda: But we, if we keep that statue in a temple, is it not more respectful? Guest (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: If I expose the statue on the open field and the crows and birds are passing stool on his head and it is going down his mouth, is it respectful? Do you think it is respectful? Guest (2): Probably not. Prabhupāda: So if that statue is kept in a temple and you dress, you garland, you offer food, is it not more respectful? Guest (2): Offer food to an idol? Hari-śauri: It's not an idol. This is a point Prabhupāda is making. Prabhupāda: The point is how to offer respect, that if you respect a person, so if you expose this form of the person on the public park, giving the crows chance to pass stool on his head, that is more respectful? Or if you keep that statue in a temple and daily dress him and garland him and offer him food, that is more respectful? Which is more respectful? You are doing the same thing, but you are exposing to the stool of birds and crows. Guest (2): No, see, you have a misunderstanding of the representation... *Prabhupāda: No misunderstanding. It is a common sense that if you have got respect for a person, instead of installing his form*-either it is statue or stone, it doesn't matter-keeping it outside and giving chance the bird to pass stool on his head, if you keep that statue in a nice place, which is more respectful? That is my question. It is a common sense. If you have got respect for a person.... You have installed the statue. Don't call Deity. Statue. So which is more respectful, to keep him exposed on the open field or to keep him in a temple? Guest (2): Well, I think if I was looking at it in your point of view, it would be more respectful to put him inside. Prabhupāda: That's the.... That is the point. Guest (4): That's your point of view, not ours. Prabhupāda: Then? That is your.... I do not know what is your point of view, that you expose this to the open air and the birds pass stool on it and you still... Guest (2): It is simply a workmanship of man to make the building maybe more... Prabhupāda: I am just talking on the practical point of view. Which is more respectful? Apart from other points, if we actually offer somebody respect, then you must give him proper respect. Guest (2): But, see, we do not see Moronai in that.... Moronai does not reside... Prabhupāda: You do not see that the crows passing stool? You do not see it? Guest (2): He might. He might do something on it. But he's not doing it on Moronai. Prabhupāda: Suppose your father's statue is there, and crow passing on the nose stool. You don't feel that "My father's statue is..." Guest (2): Well, I don't think that it was done on Moronai because Moronai is not in that statue. Prabhupāda: No, no, Moronai, anyone. I am not.... But there are so many statues, so many statues in the open field, and they are exposed to the birds for passing stool. Do you think it is more respectful than one keeping the same statue in a nice sacred temple and worshiping? Guest (2): Yes, it's nice. They should. Prabhupāda: So you criticize the person who is keeping the statue within a temple, "the heathen worship, idol worship," and you keep your father's statue exposed for passing stool on his head. Guest (4): You know, if you're going to liken it unto that, I can also liken it unto your statues down here in your temple... Prabhupāda: No, take it as statue, but where is good sense, to keep a statue within a temple or to keep it open field for passing stool by the birds? Guest (4): Okay, here is some of my good sense. You've got your statues in your temple, and I notice there were a lot of flies in there the other night crawling all over it and doing their, whatever they do. Prabhupāda: So do you mean a fly coming and crow passing stool is the same thing? Very good sense. Guest (3): Well, flies leave mess. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually, it was painful to see the flies. Devotee (4): That's why they have the whisk you see. We try to whisk the flies away. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You can try as much as possible... Prabhupāda: It is very good reason that, "Because the flies cannot be checked, and the crows should be allowed to pass stool?" At least you stop the crows. If you cannot stop the flies, but you can stop the crows. We have done that. We don't allow the crows to come. Guest (2): That's good. That's very good. We have taken a lot of your time, Your Grace, and we are very honored and thank you very much. Prabhupāda: No, we are talking frankly. That's nice. Our point is that.... That is our philosophy, that if we want to be God conscious, we must abide by His order, just like here it is very nicely written. I very much appreciate this thing. But we must practically do that. And what is that? "Again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God." Now, it is conditional. "You have come to the knowledge of the glory of..." Now, what is that knowledge, glory of God? Guest (2): Well, that is to know that He lives and that He loves you, and that one day you can live with Him again. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Very good. Guest (2): And when you have that knowledge, I think that is... *Prabhupāda: That is more explicitly explained, as I was explaining, that you feel the presence of God every time, as in the Bhagavad*-gītā is said that when you are drinking water you immediately glorify God, "Oh, God has created this water so tasteful. It is quenching my thirst." Guest (2): Exactly. Prabhupāda: How it is easy? Guest (2): Could I read you something out of that? Prabhupāda: No, no, I can understand. The things are all right. Things are all right. Guest (2): It's on the other side of the page and it talks about that. Prabhupāda: But I am giving you the process. You have written, "the glory of God," and I am giving you the process how to glorify God. Guest (2): Oh, thank you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is the process. You are drinking water, and "Oh, how Kṛṣṇa, God, is so glorified. I was so much thirsty, and just drinking this water, this is quenching my thirst." This is glorification. Guest (2): I like that. That's good. I like that. *Prabhupāda: So that is the difference. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means know how to glorify God, not theoretical*-practical. Here is practically example. Everyone drinks water, and while drinking water he can glorify thousand times. That we are teaching. Prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. As soon as you see sunlight, "Oh, we are suffering for want of sunlight. Here is God's glory. He has sent the sunlight." This is practical. So one must know how to glorify God practically. Then his life is successful. God is always glorious. There is no doubt about it. But for us, how to glorify God.... Similarly, when we worship the Deity, here is God. Just offer Him flower. Just offer Him dress. That is love. Guest (2): Yeah. Prabhupāda: Every item, there is practical. Guest (2): We think that also to glorify God is to obey His... Prabhupāda: You think but you see also practically that how these people are practically doing. Guest (2): Excuse my manner of speech. I've come to know that to glorify God and that is to obey His will and do His will. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the.... So that is the order in our Bhagavad*-gītā. The first order is man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. So "Always think of Me." And He is giving the process how to think of Him. Not that He simply leaves you that "Think of Me," but He is giving practical way. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. "Now, when you drink water you can think of Me. When you see the sunshine you can think of Me. When you see the moonshine you can.... When there is sound you can think of Me." In this way there is list. If you time, I can explain that list. Have you got time? Bring me that... Guest (2): Well, have you got... Prabhupāda: All right. So practical, that how to think of God, how to glorify Him, that there must be some practical life. That we are teaching, because everything is glorification of God. We cannot manufacture the sunshine. Therefore sunshine, it is glorification of God. We cannot manufacture the moonshine; therefore moonshine is glorification of God. So in this way you have to practically learn how to glorify God. Then life will be very nice. That we are teaching. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you should.... So if you like, you can take this book also. Guest (2): Could we have an autograph of that? Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. They want you to sign it, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Guest (2): How much does one of these cost? Guest (3): Could we have two? Devotee (4): Sure. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I met one Christian in Florida. He once said that by hearing our philosophy he felt he became a life member. *Prabhupāda: What is the date? Twenty*-third? *Hari-śauri: Twenty*-third. Guest (2): It's a good philosophy. I am really respect the Kṛṣṇa's for their discipline, because this is a great thing that people of the world need to learn, is to discipline your body, because we think that if you discipline your body, the spirit of God can dwell with you more. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): We were going to get one more book, buy it, and have you sign another one. Would that be all right? Hari-śauri: They're just bringing one more copy. They want one each. No, they want one copy each of Īśopaniṣad. So he's just waiting. He would like you to sign that one also, if you could. Prabhupāda: Oh. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why don't you read one of these? I think you'd be interested in some of the finer points in the philosophy. Guest (2): How much would that be? We can't afford too... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It only costs four dollars. Guest (2): We can't afford that. Something small.... Does it have a picture of him in there? Hari-śauri: There's a picture of Prabhupāda in the back of that one, in the back. On the inside also there's just a few notes about him. Prabhupāda: Paper is ripped. Another copy. (end) *Morning Walk-*-April 24, 1976, Melbourne Prabhupāda: What kind of mūḍha? Eh? So many of our devotees, they do not work. How they are living? *Guru*-kṛpā: That's Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Prabhupāda: So why they do not see to it? *Guru*-kṛpā: 'Cause they're mūḍhas They don't believe. Prabhupāda: They are mūḍhas. Even they see it, still, they do not believe. *Guru*-kṛpā: They're envious, that we can do it and they can't. If you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then it could be done. If you want to struggle yourself, then you have to struggle. That one lady was.... They were criticizing how we have such big building and everything, and then you invited her to come and stay with us and she wouldn't do it. Prabhupāda: So we shall go again or go back? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can go again if you like. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is time. They are very much attached to their sinful activities. *Prabhupāda: The stool, you take them and keep it apart. They will go again to the stool. Nature's way, they must suffer. So*-called philanthropic activities, welfare activities-useless. You cannot do any welfare activity; you must suffer. Only way you can do them some good, inducing them chanting, that's all. Otherwise no possibility. *Guru*-kṛpā: In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam class this morning, that was the verse. The greatest welfare activity is if they hear and chant about Kṛṣṇa's wonderful activities. That is the greatest welfare activity. So yesterday, when that man came from the government... Prabhupāda: Government? *Guru*-kṛpā: Yes, the social minister came. He did not.... You simply told him to come and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and he didn't, couldn't believe it. Prabhupāda: They are practically seeing and still not believe. *Guru*-kṛpā: He doesn't have such a nice house. Devotee (1): He accepts the result, but he won't take the process. He sees that they've given up everything he is trying to defeat, which is sinful activity, illicit sex, intoxication, but he won't take the process. *Guru*-kṛpā: One reporter told you that she was happy, and you said, "Well, if it is happiness, then it's simply happiness of the dog." So they have become satisfied with that standard of happiness. Prabhupāda: So why they create this botanical garden? If they are satisfied with the happiness of a dog, then why they spend so much money for this botanical garden? Hm? Let them be satisfied like dog, lie down on the street. Why this sense of botanical garden? [break] ...tendency for improving, artificially they are curbing down. Revolution there is. Artificially they say, "No. This is satisfied." Why they are making big, big skyscraper building? Let them remain like dog. *Guru*-kṛpā: [break] ...same for all their purposes, but because they have superior intelligence, they could make a nice facility to enjoy. Prabhupāda: Superior? That means you have got, you, a separate utility for superior consciousness. So we have to search out what is the end of the superior consciousness. *Guru*-kṛpā: I think that's mentioned in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ [SB 1.5.18]. Prabhupāda: Ah, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovidaḥ. That is intelligence. [break] ...intelligence. Why should you stop in one point? Make further progress. *Guru*-kṛpā: [break] ...the jñānī, to try to seek out, is better than to be a karmī. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Guru*-kṛpā: The jñānīs, they are trying to study Vedānta to find out what is the end. So that is better than being karmī. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: Even if they don't know the answer, they are trying to seek out. Prabhupāda: No, their answer is there, merging with the Supreme. *Guru*-kṛpā: But again they must come back. That's not complete liberation. Prabhupāda: That means not complete knowledge. *Guru*-kṛpā: So they have also stopped, ended in Brahman. *Prabhupāda: Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Practically, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we see that we're dealing mostly with karmīs, not with jñānīs, in our preaching work. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And they are simply interested in some immediate satisfaction. Prabhupāda: Karmīs not. Vikarmī. Karmī, vikarmī, akarmī. We are dealing with vikarmī. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vikarma, oh. Prohibited actions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmīs will not do anything sinful. *Guru*-kṛpā: Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Prabhupāda: Vikarma, yes. Devotee (2): So why do we call them karmīs? Prabhupāda: Vikarmīs, opposite karmī. Devotee (2): So there's practically no karmīs. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sinful. Prabhupāda: Sinful activities, duṣkṛtinaḥ. Vikarma. Therefore they will be punished in different forms of life. Therefore we find so many species of life, forms of life. This is punishment. But māyā's curtain, they are thinking, "We are happy." Just like this tree is a punishment, but it has no sense that this is punishment. *Guru*-kṛpā: Thinks he's happy. Prabhupāda: Standing happily for five thousand years. *Guru*-kṛpā: Drinking only water. Prabhupāda: If you are asked to stand here for five hours, you'll feel most uncomfortable. But they are standing for five thousand years, no uncomfortable. This is punishment. Punishment is there, but unaware. So everyone is like that. Anyone in the material world, they are being punished in different degree, but unaware. That is māyā's grace, that although he is punished, he cannot understand. *Guru*-kṛpā: So they answer that "If you're happy, then what's wrong with that?" Prabhupāda: Yes, that class you are here. You go on with that happiness. But we are not satisfied with this. You are rascal, you are happy in that way, but we are not. That is the difference between you and me. *Guru*-kṛpā: Happiness of the fool. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Sometimes they say that pain is part of life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them say, because they will have to suffer. Unless they think like that, how they will suffer? Devotee (2): What about on the hellish planets? Do they know they're suffering there? Prabhupāda: Just like to an animal, whipping is nothing. And for a man, to show the whip is sufficient. So there are different degrees of consciousness. Even a child, he'll be afraid by seeing the whip, and the animal, actually being whipped, doesn't care. That is the difference. *Guru*-kṛpā: So either they take the śāstra or the śastra. Prabhupāda: There is no question of śāstra; it is śastra only. When there is no śāstra there must be śastra. Argumentum baculum. When there is no logic, give him whip, that's all. So all these, they are awaiting whipping. They are being whipped. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Devotee (2): How can we make them understand they're being punished? *Prabhupāda: You can understand, provided you have got the sense. If you are nonsense, you cannot understand. You cannot understand means you are nonsense. That is the difference between sense and nonsense. That I have already given, the example: the same whip, to the animal it is not suffering, but for a man, simply by seeing it is suffering. It is the question of sense. That is the difference between man and animal. The animal cannot understand that he is suffering. Man can understand. That is difference. If you do not understand, then you are animal. Now, here it is clearly said, janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. This is unhappiness. And if you think, "Oh, what is there, unhappiness in dying?" then you are animal. The animal are taken to the slaughterhouse. He is not disturbed. He is eating grass very peacefully. That is the animal life. If you do not understand what is unhappiness, then you are animal. You are not human being. But his unhappiness, that's a fact, to remain in a airtight bag for ten months. If you have no sense, "Oh, what is this?" And still being killed, is it not unhappiness? And if you say, "Where is unhappiness?" then you are a stone. The Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Janma is unhappiness. First of all you have to remain ten months in a packed-up bag and that also risk your mother will kill you, and still you say, "It is not unhappiness"? Then what is happiness? You are so dull that you see there is no unhappiness in birth. Practically see. *Guru*-kṛpā: But they're so nonsense, they say, "Well, I can't remember..." Prabhupāda: But therefore I say animal. Nonsense means animal. Passerby: (yells incoherently) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! (laughter) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think we're funny; we think they are funny. Devotee (1): Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa... *Prabhupāda: [break] ...difference between animal and man. Therefore if one is not spiritually advanced or has no spiritual sense, he's animal. He is not human being. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. The verdict is already there. Sa eva go-kharaḥ. He is nothing, no better than the cows and asses. Devotee (3): Often the devotee thinks that he's more unhappy than the karmīs because he knows he's unhappy. Prabhupāda: Then that means he is not a devotee. Devotee (3): He's not a devotee. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He's not devotee. Devotee means the first sign will be happy, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. If he's not prasannātmā, he's a rascal. He has not entered even devotional life. He's outside. That is the test. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. When he saw Viṣṇu, he said, "Everything is all right. I don't want anything." Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi. That is Vaiṣṇava. And if he is still in want or unhappiness, that means he has no spiritual life at all. He is simply making a show. *Guru*-kṛpā: Our unhappiness is our lamentation for our past sinful activity, and because we're not committing any more... *Prabhupāda: That is another. That is another. That is to remember the terrible condition of karmīs. (break*-in car) ...devotee who thinks unhappy because he is thinking, "I am not getting tea. I am not getting cigarette. There is restriction of illicit life, no meat-eating..." In this way he is unhappy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He cannot gratify his desire. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Real devotee will think, "Oh, so many botheration I have now given up." Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje [SB 1.7.6]. Bhakti-yoga means upaśamam: "No more this, all this nonsense." That is bhakti-yoga, anartha-upaśamam, completely given up. Bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasya ajānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. But they do not know anything. They are increasing anartha. They are to give up cigarette. No, they are manufacturing new brand of cigarette and advertising, "Please come. This cigarette is better than the other." This is going on. This is karmī life. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. He has no sense that "I have smoke this cigarette and why, after another cigarette, the same thing?" But no. "I have enjoyed sex here. Why another sex?" He has no sense. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Available in every species of life also. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is ajñāna. Ajñāna*-timirāndhasya. This big house, [break] ...so that you will work hard. And he used to do that. You bring money and he'll spend. And if you say, "Sir, we collected this money for this purpose." "Yes, he spent. You again collect." Somebody has paid that constructing temple, and he has spent for other purpose. Then, when the devotee will say, "Oh, what this man will say?" "That's all right. You collect again." [break] ...he'll get some money, he'll make some arrangement for doll exhibition and spend the all money. *Guru*-kṛpā: Are they going to start on Māyāpura building this year? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: That is beginning? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Collect and spend. Collect and spend for Kṛṣṇa, that is nice. I am therefore asking them to print books. I have got so much in the Book Fund. Print books. Let there be books stocked and no money stocked. [break] ...upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje. *Guru*-kṛpā: Prabhupāda, we just got here.... Now we've just gotten one farm, two hundred acres. We're purchasing this next week. For eleven thousand dollars, two hundred acres. Prabhupāda: Very cheap. *Guru*-kṛpā: And it is up north. It is just like India, very hot, and you can grow everything. Hot all year round. Prabhupāda: So grow fruits, flowers, grains. Keep some men. It is very nice. [break] ...stones(?), they can go. *Guru*-kṛpā: Yes. They're aren't very attracted to it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A little over fifty dollars an acre? Very reasonable. Prabhupāda: Very cheap. Very cheap. *Guru*-kṛpā: Less than that. Prabhupāda: That New Orleans, our farm? It was nice. *Guru*-kṛpā: Māyāpura is the best farm. Prabhupāda: Yes. And it will be still better when our plan is made. *Guru*-kṛpā: We want to set the example this year by also giving a big donation to Māyāpura and also building here. Prabhupāda: At the same time you see that it is not misspent. That is another defect, that our spending is not very frugal and spend like anything. There must be.... But in India they want to cheat you, and you are very expert, being cheated. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is our karma. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Not karma. You are working sincerely, that's all. *Guru*-kṛpā: We are expert cheaters also. That's how we get the money. Prabhupāda: Yes. You are big cheaters. You don't cheat two rupees, three rupees. Two millions. (laughs) That is accusation, Alexander and the thief. The thief accused Alexander the Great that "What is the difference between you and me? I am a small thief; you are a big thief. That's all. Why you are punishing me? You are a big thief. You are doing same thing." Then he was let loose. "Yes, what is difference? (laughs) I am a big thief." [break] ...means Alexander the Great, actually he was great. Otherwise he is the emperor, and ordinary thief is accusing him and he said, "Yes, I am thief." He admitted. That is greatness. That is greatness. If he was not great, then he would have hanged him or punished him: "Oh, you are so.... You are accusing me?" But no, he accepted. That is greatness. Mistake is one fault, but to accept that "I have done mistake," that is greatness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned that on the beach in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Oh. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That when a man admits that he is a mūḍha, he is no more a mūḍha. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he has understood that "What I am doing? I am mūḍha." *Guru*-kṛpā: Lord Caitanya says, ayi nanda-tanuja kiṅkaraṁ patitaṁ māṁ viṣame bhavāmbudhau [Cc. Antya 20.32, Śikṣāṣṭaka 5]. Prabhupāda: Fell down. Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: One has to admit that he is fallen. Prabhupāda: This is the land you wanted to purchase? Devotee (1): Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, it is still unsold? Devotee (1): No one can do anything with it now. Prabhupāda: Why? Devotee (1): This neighborhood here, they will not allow any more than three stories to be built, no high rise. Prabhupāda: Oh. There cannot be any skyscraper building, so no capitalist will purchase. *Devotee (1): And no developer will use it just to make three*-story flats because the land is too expensive. (end) *Morning Walk-*-April 26, 1976, Melbourne Prabhupāda: ...mām abhijānāti. By bhakti one can understand Kṛṣṇa. *Guru*-kṛpā: Then they say that understanding means to understand that Kṛṣṇa is just the Brahman. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-kṛpā: That understanding means that Kṛṣṇa's Brahman only. Prabhupāda: Why? *Guru*-kṛpā: Kṛṣṇa is representative of Brahman. *Prabhupāda: No. Brahman is on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. Brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham. Why do you go, deviate from the statement of Bhagavad*-gītā? Anyone who deviates from the statement of Bhagavad-gītā, we take him as mūḍha, rascal. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't accept anything else. And we are supported by all the ācāryas. [break] ...practical result. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They try to categorize these modern Hindu deviators, like Vivekananda and Ramakrishna. They try to put them as ācāryas also. Prabhupāda: All rascals. They are not ācāryas. *Guru*-kṛpā: Last night this boy sits down and immediately he says, "I am a Hindu." I said, "What is this Hindu business? We are not interested in Hindu." Then he said, "Well, you do not know." "How you can say we do not know?" "Well, I was born a Hindu." So I said, "So how you know what I was born? What does that matter, where we were born? A learned person doesn't speak birth." Representing himself as very advanced or something. "Okay, you become Brahman, but we think that that is hell. That is no better than hell for us. And that is the liberation that the demons get. So we are satisfied to chant Kṛṣṇa's name, and we never want to become one. We would rather go to hell, because in hell we can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, but in the Brahman we cannot chant." Prabhupāda: Staunch adherent. [break] *Guru*-kṛpā: ...in Bhāgavatam, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that when a devotee, he sees a banyan, fruit of a banyan tree, and there are so many seeds within that fruit, and each seed can mean one tree and one tree means millions of fruits, and in this way the devotee can appreciate Kṛṣṇa. But the jñānīs, they go on speculating, and they can never relish anything. The devotee can simply relish how Kṛṣṇa has done everything in the material nature. Prabhupāda: We can go here? No. And no... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It is a little distance there. Devotee (1): [break] ...devotee is only unhappy to see others unhappy. Does this ever cease? Is a devotee always unhappy because of this? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (1): Is a devotee always in some anxiety to see others unhappy? Prabhupāda: Yes. How to deliver them? This is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. This kind of anxiety is welcome. Devotee (1): Yes. Is that also in the spiritual world like this? Prabhupāda: Yes. In spiritual world there is everything, but only central point is Kṛṣṇa. Here anxiety is "Where I shall get money? Where I shall get woman?" And there is anxiety, "How shall I get Kṛṣṇa?" The anxiety is there. That is the difference. Devotee (1): But do they have anxiety... Prabhupāda: Here all people are anxious how to get money and how to get woman, that's all. And there the anxiety is how to get Kṛṣṇa. The anxiety is there, but quality is different. Devotee (1): If we're in anxiety that we cannot perform devotional service nicely, that is all right? *Prabhupāda: That is devotional side. Kṛṣṇa anxiety itself is the first*-class devotional service. If one becomes anxious like that, then he is perfect. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. After many, many millions of life of pious activities one can get such anxiety. This is not so easy, to become anxious for Kṛṣṇa. You don't think it is like ordinary activity (anxiety?). Koṭi-sukṛtaiḥ. If one becomes full of anxiety for Kṛṣṇa, that is the highest stage of perfection. Devotee (1): So the anxiety that I am always falling down... Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): We are in the neophyte stage, and we're often falling down. Prabhupāda: You don't imitate. You follow the rules and regulations. Don't try artificially to be anxious. When you are purified, then you'll get that anxiety, not artificially. Then you are sahajiyā. Devotee (1): I don't mean to hanker for the anxiety, but to... Prabhupāda: No, anxiety, that is.... That will come, the perfectional stage. Don't try to be perfect artificially. Perfect stage, we have to follow strictly the regulative principle, the injunction of the spiritual master, śāstra. Then you come to that stage. Don't artificially imitate. Devotee (1): What if one keeps falling down from following the regulative principles? Prabhupāda: He's falling down? If he's falling down from regulative principles, that means he's falling down to the material world. Falling down means falling down. Devotee (2): [break] ...from the regulative principles and feels anxiety, then that anxiety is material anxiety. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): It's not spiritual. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So anxiety for one's self is māyā? Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Anxiety for one's self is māyā? Prabhupāda: That is material. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And anxiety for Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: That is spiritual. [break] ...Gosvāmī's śloka. Kṛṣṇa*-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate: "The anxiety for Kṛṣṇa, if it can be purchased, immediately purchase it." Rūpa Gosvāmī said. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatām: "Just purchase Kṛṣṇa anxiety if it is available somewhere." So the next question will be that "What is the price?" Tatra laulyam api mūlyam ekalam: "That anxiety can be purchased by anxiety." "So I'll do it." No. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate: "That anxiety is not available even by millions of births' pious activities." So this anxiety is not so easy. Devotee (1): So if we're performing the Deity worship and we get in anxiety, how to make it nice... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. That is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. If you become anxious how to worship Deity, how to dress Kṛṣṇa nicely, how to do, if you remain, that will develop your anxiety for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Deity worship essential. Exactly in time to get up, to offer maṅgala-ārati, to dress, this anxiety is the beginning of Kṛṣṇa anxiety. Then, when you become perfect, you'll always be anxious for Kṛṣṇa. And that is perfectional stage. Therefore, by the injunction of the śāstra, regulative, it is a way of creating that anxiety. So we must follow. Then we'll come to the real anxiety. *Guru*-kṛpā: Not artificially. Devotee (1): So therefore it is good that we have so much Deity worship to do that we're very, very busy and we do not have any time? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): We practically do not have enough time, but that is very good? Prabhupāda: Enough time? Devotee (1): To worship the Deity. We have so much to do. Prabhupāda: So what enough time you want? To go to the cinema? (laughter) Then? Your time has to be occupied by Kṛṣṇa anxiety. That's all. And as soon as you go to other anxiety, then it is māyā. *Guru*-kṛpā: If we have four hours to dress the Deity, we can use the whole four hours. But sometimes we only have an hour and a half, so we have to rush. So that is anxiety. Prabhupāda: No, that anxiety does not mean this laziness, that "I am anxiety for four hours. Deity cannot be opened now. I am in anxiety." That is negligence. That is negligence. That is not anxiety. Devotee (2): When we are distributing books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and we are not doing so good and we are in anxiety, that is also spiritual? Prabhupāda: That is.... For selling books anxiety is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. If you become very anxious how to sell more books, that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. That is not trade anxiety; that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. *Guru*-kṛpā: So some people say that "When I go on saṅkīrtana to sell books I become in too much anxiety if I'm not doing well, so I'd rather not do it." *Prabhupāda: No, that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. He does not know. Let him know that that is Kṛṣṇa anxiety. Yaśodā, mother Yaśodā, became mother of Kṛṣṇa so that she would always remain in anxiety for Kṛṣṇa, whether Kṛṣṇa is safe. That is mother's anxiety. Therefore she became mother. How to become in Kṛṣṇa anxiety? This philosophy nobody knows. Everyone takes Kṛṣṇa as the father. Father means I'm anxiety*-less: "Father, you supply my wants." And to become father of Kṛṣṇa means to purchase anxiety for Kṛṣṇa. This philosophy they do not know. Devotee (2): They say, that man the other night, he said... Prabhupāda: To accept Kṛṣṇa as father means "My father is there. I have no anxiety." And if you accept Kṛṣṇa as your son, then you are full of Kṛṣṇa anxiety. This is the philosophy. And these Māyāvādīs, they cannot understand. They think that Kṛṣṇa is born of this father and mother, how He is God? But they do not know the philosophy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They talk of śānti. Prabhupāda: Mother Yaśodā is always anxious. "Kṛṣṇa is crawling. Whether He is falling down in some water or some monkey has come, hurting Him, or...?" Always. Or "He is touching some fire." Always anxiety. And besides that, the demons are coming. So this is perfection. Always remain in anxiety for Kṛṣṇa. *Guru*-kṛpā: [break] They just think, na śocati na kāṅkṣati. *Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī rascal, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has condemned them, māyāvādī*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. If you hear Māyāvādī association, then your bhakti life is finished. Don't touch them. [break] Still, they are little more than the karmīs. [break] ...this place they are dragged through this, what is called? Short grass? Through this. Devotee (1): That is anxiety, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That is anxiety, when one goes to Yamarāja and has to face. *Prabhupāda: That is the result of material anxiety. [break] To become anxiety*-less, no more anxiety. That is nonsense. *Guru*-kṛpā: They say, "Kṛṣṇa says, na śocati na kāṅkṣati." Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-kṛpā: Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. *Prabhupāda: That is material, śocati, kāṅkṣati. But in spiritual world the same śocati, kāṅkṣati, is there, but for Kṛṣṇa. First of all you have to negate the material śocati, kāṅkṣati. Then spiritual, mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. Beginning is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 18.54]. Then spiritual anxiety begins. When this is neutralized, then actual life begins. That is bhakti. Otherwise what is the mean...? Mad-bhaktim. In bhakti there is anxiety. That is spiritual anxiety. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise, what is the meaning of bhakti? It comes after. *Prabhupāda: Zero, they are śūnyavādī, zero, and nirviśeṣavādī. The same thing. But we are not śūnyavādī. Whole is not zero. The anxiety.... You cannot become anxiety-less. That is artificial. If you artificially become anxiety-less, then artificially you can remain anxiety-less for some time. Again you fall down. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Falls down. But the anxiety should be purified. That is wanted. Not anxiety-less. You are living being. You cannot be anxiety.... That means you are dead. A living being has no anxiety*-that means he is dead. That is not the ideal. The anxiety should be purified from material contamination, and it should be only for Kṛṣṇa. Then it is perfect. Here the anxiety with some designation, "I am the father of this family," this is my anxiety, how to maintain them. "I am the leader of this nation." That is my anxiety. So all these anxieties are material, upādhi. I am neither father nor leader. I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. I have created artificial anxieties. So therefore I have to become free from this artificial anxiety. And nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa. And when he is pure servant of Kṛṣṇa, he's always anxious how to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is the.... The anxiety is there, and now it is purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170], completely fresh. And then with that senses, hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktiḥ. This is bhakti. Mad-bhaktim labhate. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They can't stop, na śocati na kāṅkṣati. They have to go further. Prabhupāda: Yes. And this is negation. Just like one man is diseased. He is also eating, he is also sleeping, but that is not healthy eating, sleeping. He has to get relief from this eating, lying down on the bed and eating by some instrument. This nonsense eating, sleeping should be stopped. And when he's healthy, he eats also, sleeps also. That is different. That is different eating, sleeping, but they do not.... He is suffering from disease. He thinks, "Again eating? Make it zero. Make it zero." This is Māyāvādī. He has no taste what is the other eating. He wants to make it zero because here the eating is so botheration, "Oh, let me commit suicide. Make it zero." So that is Buddha philosophy. *Guru*-kṛpā: Sour grapes. Prabhupāda: So that is good for the less intelligent class of men. Because they cannot understand what is bhakti, so Buddha therefore says, "First of all make this zero, rascal. Then your real life begins." But what is that real life he did not say, because the rascals will not understand. Simply advised, "You make this zero, śūnyavādī." Then, when time will come, he will understand what is positive. *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, this process is su*-sukham, very, very joyful. So how can we explain to the karmīs that this anxiety... Prabhupāda: You are not feeling joyful? To chant, dance, and eat prasādam is not joyful? Is it not? Devotee (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: Then what do you want more? And simply by chanting, dancing, and eating prasādam you are making progress. Therefore it is su*-sukham. You haven't got to press your nose and make your head down and starve for three hundred years, nothing like that. Go to the forest, go to the Himalayas.... No. At your place you chant, dance, and take prasādam. That's all. [break] *Guru*-kṛpā: (in car) Therefore any other argument that we present, they... Prabhupāda: There is no argument. "You remain yourself. Let us remain peaceful. You remain peaceful. We are following our mahājana." Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. We have got so many exalted mahājanas. Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Nārada, Asita, Devala, Arjuna, in recent, in the recent years, within two thousand years, all the ācāryas. So we are safe. We don't require your help. Bas. If you are satisfied with whatever you have understood, you remain. [break] ...authorities. And the most exalted of them is Kṛṣṇa, so we have no doubt. You cannot make us doubtful. That is not possible. *Guru*-kṛpā: But I think they are doubtful, though. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise why they complain? They're doubtful. *Guru*-kṛpā: Asaṁśayaṁ samagram. Prabhupāda: That.... Yes. That verse? *Asaṁśayam: "Without any doubt, and in fullness, as you understand, I'll see to(?)" This is our faith. We have no asaṁśaya, and we have no imperfect understanding. Asaṁśayaṁ samagram. Asaṁśayam means without any doubt, and samagram means in full. You know simply Brahman. That is that full knowledge. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. That's all right. You have come to the light, just like you have come to the sunshine, light, but does not mean that you have gone to the sun globe or you have seen the sun-god. That will take many millions of years to become so perfect. But you have come to the light*-that much credit to you. That is ordinary. Everyone sees the sunlight. That does not require much endeavor. But if you want to go to the sun globe and enter there to see the sun-god, then that requires special qualification. So you are ordinary man. You have come to the light from darkness. That much credit to you, that's all. *Guru*-kṛpā: [break] ...angry about was how they can come to Your Divine Grace and be so puffed up and be insulting. Prabhupāda: How they are haughty, insulting. *Guru*-kṛpā: Like you said, he is just a tiny student. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-kṛpā: He is such a tiny student, and he comes to Your Divine Grace. In all respects, he should at least be a little bit submissive. Prabhupāda: But we call them rascals. What is more insulting than...? We call them rascals. A tiny student.... A student, he is learning something. But "You are rascal. Nothing at all." *Guru*-kṛpā: He didn't call us a rascal. Prabhupāda: Mūḍha. (interference) ...rejecting Kṛṣṇa, you are rascals. We don't say; Kṛṣṇa says. Because you are not taking Kṛṣṇa seriously, you are mūḍha. And when he wants to know what is mūḍha, rascal.... (interference) *Guru*-kṛpā: ...in this lifetime. Prabhupāda: There is no question of becoming perfect. Try to become perfect. That is perfect. Don't become.... (interference) Remain always student and try to become perfect. That is wanted. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana [Cc. Ādi 7.71]. [break] *Guru*-kṛpā: That is what Rahūgaṇa, he asked Jaḍa Bharata, "How have you attained such a perfectional stage?" Prabhupāda: Rahūgaṇaitat tapasā na yāti na cejyayā nirvapaṇād... *Guru*-kṛpā: That is our wonder, how Your Divine Grace has attained such a perfectional stage. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The conclusion was that only by the dust of the lotus feet of a pure devotee. [break] Prabhupāda: That's all. (end) *Press Conference-*-April 27, 1976, Auckland, New Zealand Interviewer: Your Grace, have you been to New Zealand before? Prabhupāda: Twice. When the Deity was installed, I installed personally. Then I think I came last year here. Interviewer: You're the leader of how many disciples or devotees throughout the world? Prabhupāda: Personally, I have got not less than ten thousand. But I was deputed by my Guru Mahārāja to make propaganda in the Western countries. So this movement... Of course, I have started in the Western countries, but in India it is very common movement, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everyone knows. Interviewer: Are you at all concerned about the, what seems to be an increasing number of gurus and swamis throughout the world? Prabhupāda: That I could not follow. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The question is: "Are you concerned with the increasing number of gurus and swamis around the world?" *Prabhupāda: No. We are concerned that in spite of so*-called education and advancement of civilization, people have been kept in darkness about real knowledge. So it is our little attempt to awaken them to the real platform of knowledge. Interviewer: Well, what do you hope to achieve by your short visit here to New Zealand, where you don't have a very big following at all? Prabhupāda: Just to encourage my disciples. They're also trying their best to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So if I occasionally visit, they become encouraged. That's why. Interviewer: Is your movement still growing? It was very popular here in the Beatles' era and so on and so forth. Prabhupāda: Yes, George Harrison is a good boy. He likes me. He has given us a big house in London about 200,000 pounds' worth. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's 250,000 pounds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: So would it be true to say that perhaps without George Harrison of the Beatles the religion wouldn't be as well known as it is today? *Prabhupāda: No, not like that. That is not that. But in the Western countries nobody comes forward to give us some contribution. But this boy is very nice, he gives us sometimes some thing. He gives, and another boy, who is the great-grandson of Mr. Henry Ford-his name is Alfred*-he also helps us. But mostly we get our income by selling these books. We are selling books daily about $200,000 daily. That is our main source of income. And I have made a trust will in which fifty percent of the collection is spent for reprinting the books, and fifty percent is spent for spreading this movement. Interviewer: One thing, New Zealand cities are passing bylaws which seek to ban the chanting of your disciples in the streets. Do you get much opposition like this? Prabhupāda: Yes, but we don't depend on the city authorities; we depend on Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: But does it worry you that your disciples perhaps annoy city officials by their chanting and their activities in the streets? Prabhupāda: The city authorities, they like our chanting? Interviewer: They're annoyed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, they don't really understand what we're trying to do. They see it as something new, and they may feel a little threatened. We've found all over the world, though, that people are coming to accept now that they understand the character of people that we're developing. Interviewer: But do you think that'll happen here? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. I think every government is looking to develop people of high moral character. And our society is doing that. Interviewer: Do you attempt to speak with governments and city officials and that sort of thing to spread your message? Prabhupāda: (to devotee:) I think you have talked with these city authorities. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Here is the boy, he can... Devotee: Yes, we've spoken with some of the government officials. I've spoken with or I've had contact with the cities where we have not personal contact but through the mail, and also some contact with the minister of immigrations. Interviewer: How long do you intend to keep traveling and, and... Prabhupāda: If I stayed four days in each center, it takes one year to travel all the centers. Interviewer: Four days in each center takes you one year. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Three days. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got 102 centers all over the world. Interviewer: So how many centers does that make it? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Over a hundred. A hundred and two. Interviewer: Do you spend your whole year traveling, or is it only part of the year? Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Do you spend your whole year traveling, or only part of the year? Prabhupāda: I am traveling either in Europe, America, Africa, Canada, India, everywhere. Interviewer: So, do you have a home, or do you have... Prabhupāda: I have 102 houses, but nowhere I am allowed to live. That is the difficulty. (laughter) Interviewer: How old are you, Swami? How old? Prabhupāda: What do you think? Interviewer: Oh,... How old? Prabhupāda: When one becomes old? Do you know? Interviewer: Well, how many years do you have? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: How many years? Prabhupāda: I am eighty years. Interviewer: Eighty. How long have you been a Hare Kṛṣṇa man? Prabhupāda: Ten years. I began this movement when I was seventy years old. Interviewer: What were you before that? Prabhupāda: I was householder. And I retired, and I was living in Vṛndāvana, a holy place in India. My Guru Mahārāja asked me to do this. So I could not begin earlier. So I thought it wise to begin at seventy years. So somehow or other, Kṛṣṇa has given us some opportunity to get cooperation of these young boys, and they're helping me. *Interviewer: What is your opinion of the Guru Maharaj*-ji? *Devotee: What is your opinion of Guru Maharaj*-ji? *Prabhupāda: Huh? Not only Guru Maharaj*-ji, so many Mahārāja. So this movement is authorized. Others, they are some imaginary sentiments. That's all. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is authorized movement, Vedic culture. And they, in the name of Vedic culture, talking some nonsense. That's all. That is the difference. Do you know about Guru Maharaj-ji? Interviewer: No, no. Prabhupāda: None of you? Interviewer: You've met him? Prabhupāda: Huh? Interviewer: You've met him, have you? Prabhupāda: No, what business I have got to meet him? He says that he is God. Do you believe that bogus statement? That he's God? Interviewer: Do you think he's an egotist? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Do you think he's an egotist? Do you think he's an egotist? Prabhupāda: That is all simply foolishness. If somebody says "I am God," do you think it is very reasonable statement? Bogus. Simple thing, bogus. Interviewer: Bogus? Prabhupāda: Bogus! Interviewer: Oh, bogus. Do you believe that Hare Kṛṣṇa is the only true faith? Prabhupāda: Yes. This is real knowledge. We have got, I have already told you, only on this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, there is one book by Professor Judah. Have you got that book? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: He has written one book very authorized, Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. So we are being accepted by learned circle, and who cares for these rascals? Nobody cares. Only some sentiment. There is no science; there is no knowledge. Here it is authoritative knowledge based on Vedic culture. Interviewer: But if you consider your religion to be the only religion... *Prabhupāda: It is not my*-everyone's. You are in ignorance; you do not know; therefore we are trying to educate you. It is yours also. It is not a personal thing. It is meant for the living entities. That you people, you do not know, that we are all living entities. There is slight description of the evolution by Darwin. But he's also not in perfect knowledge. The real fact is the..., I am not this body, you are not this body. I am living entity within this body. Just like you are within your coat and shirt. The coat and shirt you are not. Similarly, we living entities, we are within this gross and subtle body. The gross body is made of earth, water, air, fire, and the subtle body is made of mind, intelligence, and egotism. So we are within this. So nobody knows; there is no educational system, what is our real constitutional position. We are wrongly accepting this body. And that kind of acceptance is there in the animals. The dog also thinking that "I am this body." So if I am thinking like that, "I am this body," then what is the difference between the dog and me? We are educating from him that point of view, that the living entity is entrapped within this body, and according to his desire, he's changing different types of body and undergoing continually birth and death. So in order to save him from the cycle of birth and death, one has to understand God, or Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means God. Then he comes to his real, identical position as spiritual body, and then he lives forever. He lives forever. Just like a man changing constantly dresses; that does not mean he's dying. Similarly, we do not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. After destruction of this body, we are not dying. We remain. But we simply accept another body. So this is a great botheration. But people are in ignorance. They're thinking that after death there is no life. This ignorance is a great, I mean to say, difficult position. So we are trying to educate them how to get out of this entanglement of cycle, birth and death. And therefore there are so many books on this subject matter. It is a very serious movement. It is not compared to the so many rascal movements. So if you are serious, you can study our books, you can try to understand the philosophy, science; then the whole human society will be benefited. Interviewer: Well, I'm sure many New Zealanders would like to know the very reason why your... Prabhupāda: Oh, everywhere we are liked. Interviewer: No, why do your followers chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa chant in the street? What is the reason behind this? Prabhupāda: Reason is that Hare Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa is the name of God, Kṛṣṇa. So if you... Kṛṣṇa is absolute, God is absolute. God's name and God, there is no difference. That is absolute idea. So if you chant Kṛṣṇa's name, that means you associate with Kṛṣṇa directly, God. And by associating with God, you become purified. Then the dirty things within your mind... You are thinking, "I am this body," as the dog is also thinking, "I belong to America," "I belong to Australia," "I belong to New Zealand," "I... India," and... These wrong conception will go away. Then we'll understand that "I am not this or that; *I am spirit soul, part and parcel of God." Then real knowledge begins, and if we act accordingly, our life becomes successful. So this movement is not meant for you and me*-for everyone who is intelligent human being. Interviewer: Thank you, Swami. That wraps it up for me unless anybody's got any more questions? Thank you, thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. (end) *Room Conversation-*-April 27, 1976, Auckland, New Zealand *Devotee (1): Yeah, he's floating around somewhere doing nonsense. Now he's eating meat. (Prabhupāda chuckles) And this one boy in Fiji wrote me a letter. His friend worked at the hotel, Guru Maharaj*-ji came and stayed there, and he was a waiter. For dinner, Guru Maharaj-ji had shrimp curry and then beer. Drinking, eating meat, and having illicit sex. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's his līlā. Devotee (1): Complete nonsense. Devotee (2): How does he keep followers? Prabhupāda: So followers are like that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like guru, like celā. Devotee (2): It's a very cheap thing. Very much they're moving on the group spirit. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): It's just a personality cult with no philosophy. Devotee (1): Social club. *Guru*-kṛpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, for the abhiṣeka, do we require cow urine and cow dung and tail of cow? Is it... Prabhupāda: If available, not? Devotee (1): Yes, we can get it. *Guru*-kṛpa: It's available. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're feeling threatened by our kīrtana parties. Prabhupāda: Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said that some of the town councils are trying to pass laws against our chanting in the streets. Devotee (2): The Christians are behind it in Whangarei. Prabhupāda: So, can they pass such law? Devotee (2): I don't think so. We're having.... Some of our men are going to meet with the council the day after tomorrow at the meeting. They're open to our side. The reason is that the businessmen have complained, some of the businessmen have complained. Prabhupāda: Not all of them. You take some signature from other businessmen. Devotee (2): Yes, all right. Prabhupāda: You present that. Devotee (2): Yes. The men who are going to speak are businessmen, devotees. One is an architect. Prabhupāda: Then he can organize so many signatures. Devotee (2): One is a restaurant owner, and one has a hairdressing salon. And they're going to speak... Prabhupāda: Everyone likes; that's a fact. *Guru*-kṛpa: We gave the argument before that they say it is a disturbance, but there are so many cars and airplanes which are making disturbance. They should also be stopped. Devotee (2): Last week we wrote letters to the newspaper, and they published them, showing our view. And in Whangarei.... It's another city, a hundred miles from here. It's near the farm up north, and the devotees chant there. And the businessmen complained. And the devotees wrote a letter criticizing the materialistic businessmen, and that they didn't care for the people, only they wanted money. And they printed it this big in the newspaper, completely criticizing, and the people liked it. They put it in everything, word for word what the devotees said. So it was good. Prabhupāda: So there is agitation against chanting. That is also good. Yes, "Hare Kṛṣṇa is bad." (laughs) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't want to be bothered with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't want to be bothered with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on with their hellish life. Prabhupāda: So we want that. Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa somehow or other. (devotees laugh) "We don't want to be bothered by Hare Kṛṣṇa." That means chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): Because our kīrtana party now, we have, we go on kīrtana, eighty men. We go two nights a week with eighty men. Huge kīrtana with five mṛdaṅgas and guitars, and we get huge crowd from the whole street. Prabhupāda: That will make you triumphant. Go on kīrtana. That is very nice. Kīrtana, and book distribution. This is also kīrtana. *Guru*-kṛpā: This is bṛhad mṛdaṅga. Prabhupāda: Yes. So do it enthusiastically. Keep yourself pure. Nobody will be able to do any harm to you. Kṛṣṇa will give you protection. So? [break] Devotee (2): Eight crores. Hari-śauri: Didn't he say eighty crores? Prabhupāda: One crore means ten million. Hari-śauri: Rupees. Prabhupāda: Such eight. Devotee (2): Eighty million rupees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): That's a million dollars. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eight million dollars. Prabhupāda: Now it will be tested how much money we have got. (Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa laughs) *Guru*-kṛpā: Ghee is cheaper in New Zealand than in Australia. Prabhupāda: Anyway, first of all arrange for selling. *Guru*-kṛpā: I've already sent off the letter. *Prabhupāda: And you can disvertise(?) it from New Zealand or from Australia. There can be very peaceful condition of the whole world. Simply mismanaged by the rascal leaders. Otherwise, people can live very peacefully, eat sumptuously, save time, and there is no necessity of stopping the bare necessities of life. There is arrangement for eating, sleeping, sex life also. But not like fools and rascals. Like sane man. But this modern civilization, it is insane, crazy civilization. There is a little pleasure in sex life-simply sex life, increase sex life, spoiling everything. That is crazy. Eating-eat anything, any nonsense thing, and become a hog. Sleeping-oḥ, there is no limit, twenty-four hours sleeping if it is possible. Go on, this is going on. Eating, sleeping, mating. And defense*-and discover atomic weapon, this weapon, that weapon, and kill innocent persons, unnecessarily, defense. This is going on. But everything can be used properly for peaceful condition, and when you become peaceful, no disturbance, then you can very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and your life becomes successful. This is our program. We don't want to stop anything. How it can be stopped? Whatever is the bare neces.... Just like we have taken sannyāsa. What is that? "Oh, we have no sex life only. Otherwise, we are also eating, we are also sleeping." So that is also stopped in good old age. In old age, if a person like me, at the age of eighty years, if I would have shopped for sex life, does it look very good? Young men, they are allowed. That's all right. But a young..., old man is going to the club and spending for sex life so much money. Therefore younger generation, they're allowed gṛhastha life from twenty-five years to fifty years. That's all. After that, stop sex life. Actually, they want to stop population. Then why it, sex, then? No, they'll have sex life, at the same time, no population, kill the children. What is that? Simply sinful life. They will suffer, continue to suffer. So we want to stop that suffering. These rascals, they do not understand. They think, "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is disturbing." A rascal civilization. So let us try our best. What can be done? You also helping in this movement. So don't spoil the movement by manufacturing ideas. Don't do that. Go on in the standard way, keep yourself pure; *then movement is sure to be successful. But if you want to spoil it by whimsical, then what can be done? It will be spoiled. If you manufacture whims and disagree and fight amongst yourself, then it will be another edition of these so*-called movements. It will lose the spiritual strength. Always remember it. You cannot.... Now, actually, people are surprised: "What this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra has got power that it is changing so quickly?" And on the other hand, it is to be admitted, unless it has got power, how it is changing? So we have to keep that power. Don't make it an ordinary musical vibration. It is a different thing, spiritual. Although it seems like musical vibration, but it is spiritual, completely. Mantrauśadhi-vaśa. Even, by mantra, the snakes can be charmed. So mantra is not ordinary sound vibration. So we have to keep the mantra in potency, potent, by offenseless chanting, by remaining pure. If you pollute the mantra, then it will lose its effect. (devotees discuss some money matters in background) *Devotee (2): So concerning the temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I talked to some boys, and the one boy, Dhūmra(?), he used to be in Australia, he made a fifteen*-foot-high Lord Caitanya. Do you remember at the Ratha-yātrā? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm. Devotee (2): And we're going to build a temple with nice domes, Indian style, and with sculpture like the elephant heads... Prabhupāda: Make in Vṛndāvana style. Devotee (2): Yes. I'll get pictures of the different... Prabhupāda: There is that big dome and.... You have seen Vṛndāvana? Devotee (2): I have seen it just before it was finished, not since it was completed. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): But I've seen pictures. Prabhupāda: I think we have got pictures. Devotee (2): And the place where we're going to put it, you'll be able to see it for miles. It'll be a landmark. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee (2): You can see it for many miles. Prabhupāda: Not only one, you hundreds of temples construct. Village to village, town to.... At the same time, man. And it will revolutionize the whole rascal situation. At the present moment, it is rascal situation. They're simply satisfied by driving the motor.... putputputputputputputputput! (Prabhupāda makes the sound of a roaring motor). They are thinking, "Oh, how highly I am situated." All crazy. But this has been taught to them that "This is civilization. If you have got a motorcycle and you can come like the wild cat, (all laugh) then you are civilized." They are thinking how great civilized they are; *we are thinking how wild cat he is. And what is the difference between wild cat and running dog and this motorcycle? Put*-put? What is the difference? Devotee (2): Nothing. *Prabhupāda: And they're taking it, highly civilized way of life. Where you are going? You cannot go beyond this earth. You attempted so much to go to the moon planet, you failed. And where you can go, put*-put-put-put? You'll have to stay here. But that rascal does not understand. He thinks, "I am going very fast." Where you are going? You are destined to stay here. That he does not understand. Not only this put-put motorcycle, the put-put airplane also. They're also trying to go to this planet around, round. That sputnik, first sputnik, eighteen thousand miles, and they simply rounded over the world in one hour and twenty-five minutes. And where did you go? And when he's tired, then come down again. They cannot understand, these so-called scientists, that we cannot go in this way. There is higher authority. Why it will allow us to go anywhere? Just like the horse running fast, but within the race course. That's all. It cannot go beyond the race course. And similarly, however heroic expedition we may show, you are, what is called, baddha-jīva, conditioned. You cannot cross the condition, that is not possible. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. A rascal, on account of his false prestige, he is thinking, "Oh, I am independent. I can do whatever I like." Vimūḍhātmā, foolish, rascal. Mūḍha, not. Vimūḍhātmā, "especially the rascal, a special rascal." Ordinary rascal is better than the special rascal. (laughs) So all these scientists, philosophers, and political leaders, they're all special rascal, they are. Devotee (2): Vimūḍha. Prabhupāda: Ordinary man, they're simply rascal, and these rascals are special rascals. *Guru*-kṛpā: Vimūḍhā nānupaśyanti paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣaḥ. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm. So don't be vimūḍhas. Better remain mūḍha. Not special rascal. (end) *Room Conversation-*-April 30, 1976, Fiji Prabhupāda: ...therefore he very intelligently appointed Kṛṣṇa as his spiritual master. Because everyone is in perplexity about the problem of life. So this very thing happened to Arjuna, and he wanted to go to spiritual master for solution. And the supreme spiritual master was present before him; *therefore he submitted: śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ... *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma*-saṁmūḍha-cetāḥ, yac chreyaḥ syān niścitaṁ brūhi tan me. Prabhupāda: Yac chreyaḥ syāt, yac chreyaḥ syāt tat brūhi me niścitam. So the spiritual master's duty is how to benefit the disciple, śreyaḥ. What is the translation? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me." *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā. So because he accepted discipleship, so He immediately chastised him that "You rascal, you are talking like a very learned man, but you are on the platform of bodily conception of life, the platform of the animals." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. Anyone who accepts this body as self, he's animal. He's not even a human being. So the whole world is on this bodily concept of life. That is going on. "American," "European," "Hindu," "Muslim," "black," "white," this, that. They do not know what is education. That is the first education, that "You rascal, you are not this body. You are within the body." So who understands this? And they're declaring that "We are student of Bhagavad-gītā. We have studied Bhagavad-gītā." Hmm? Even Gandhi, he takes photograph with Bhagavad-gītā, but his fighting is for nationalism. The others are doing that. So what is the use of taking Bhagavad-gītā? The Pakistanis are also doing that. But you have taken Bhagavad-gītā, you are doing the same work. So what is your credit? This is going on. So nobody is learning Bhagavad-gītā. It is first time that we are teaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Otherwise, everyone is misled. The subject matter is that the soul is different from this body. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The karmīs will argue that "I am not ready to hear this yet." Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The karmīs will argue, "I am not ready to hear this yet." Many people, they come and they hear this philosophy, they say, "Very nice. But I am not ready for it yet." *Prabhupāda: But why you have come here, to hear Bhagavad*-gītā? Why you have come? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Generally, they come to take nice prasādam. *Prabhupāda: All right, that is also kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. Prasādam means we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa; *then it is prasādam. So you have not come, but you have to come to take prasādam. This, it has got connection with Kṛṣṇa. So therefore we welcome you that at least for eating, you are coming to Kṛṣṇa. Gradually, you'll understand Kṛṣṇa, by eating only. Kṛṣṇa is not so easy to be understood, but we are giving you facility to eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam so that one day you can understand this movement. This is the policy. Actually, that is the policy. We are not poor-feeding. That is not our philosophy. Like Vivekananda. Daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. No, we are not after that. We are giving you prasādam. And that is fact, that by eating, eating, eating, eating, you one day will become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Simply by eating. Because you are so dull, you cannot understand the philosophy. You know the belly like the animals. So therefore we are giving facility, "All right, fill up your belly, fill up your belly. And you'll be infected." As you take foodstuff from a infected area, you become infected with some disease, so this is Kṛṣṇa infected, prasādam. You take it, and one day you'll be diseased with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And that is a fact. Some way or other, let him come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. He'll be benefited. Some way or other, let him come to the light. May be dim light or very big light. Light is light. So if anyone understands that there is a soul which is conducting the business of this body, then he can very easily understand that there is a Supersoul who is conducting the business of the whole material manifested world. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. If you convince that the body is useless, a lump of matter only, but the soul is the prime factor, similarly, he'll very easily understand that there is huge, gigantic material body of earth, water, air, fire, sky; *they are working so wonderfully on account of the Supersoul. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā: athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna. Find out this verse. *Guru*-kṛpā: Chapter 10, verse 42. No? (devotee takes a long time to find verse) Prabhupāda: One should practice to open this very quickly. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda: Read it carefully. As the small soul has entered.... Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. This is also a small universe. The same elements are working, but the soul is the prime factor. Similarly, this gigantic body. Athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena.... Viṣṭabhya aham idaṁ kṛtsnam. "The kṛtsnam, the total material energy, millions of universes like that, that is being maintained by Me because I have entered in it in My fragmental portion." Same principle. As I, the individual soul, I am.... because I have entered this body, the body is working so nicely. It looks beautiful; *it looks fresh. It is machine. The machine is working very nicely so long the pilot or the driver is there. Similarly, where is the difficulty to understand this universal affair? If we accept the same principle, that "I am a small fragmental portion of Kṛṣṇa. I have entered this body. This body is working so nicely.... Similarly, because Kṛṣṇa has entered as Mahā*-Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, therefore it is working." *Guru*-kṛpā: Kṛṣṇa also says, gām āviśya ca bhūtāni [Bg. 15.13]. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many verses. Another verse is mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ [Bg. 9.10]. "The prakṛti is not important. Material energy is not important. My supervision is important." Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ. The sun is rising and setting by whose order? Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam aham... This is to be understood. And if one understands that because the soul is there within the body, therefore the body is working so wonderfully, then he can very easily understand there must be a soul of this universe. How he can deny it? How he can say that it is working automatically? There is no such experience, working automatically. I have given several times the example: the 747, wonderful aeroplane machine, but that is not important. The important is the pilot who is pushing the button and it is, in such big sky, it will stay balanced; *in balance it is flying in six hundred miles speed, onh*-onh-onh-onhh. (imitates sound of plane flying). And as soon a little.... Finished. So it is a fact. Why the security checking? Because sometimes these, what is that, hi.... hi...? Devotee: Highjackers. Prabhupāda: Highjacks, they attack the pilot. They're not attacking the passengers. (end) *Room Conversation-*-May 1, 1976, Fiji Prabhupāda: ...The Lord then said, (Hindi:) ...bhagavān diya(?). This.... [break] *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke [Bg. 15.7]. 15.7. *Guru*-kṛpā: "The living entities in this conditional world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind." *Prabhupāda: So with this instrument he's manipulating this machine, as exactly the pilot, with so many electronics, machine, he's working the flying of the plane. Where is the difficulty to understand? And this is, body is a machine. Bhrāmayan sarva*-bhū.... Bhrāmayan, wandering. The aeroplane is wandering. This machine is wandering. It is also going. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ. Sometimes up, sometimes down. Huh? Find out this. (devotees look for verse) Same aeroplane, going up and down. Two wings, this hand, like this. *Guru*-kṛpā: "Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds." *Prabhupāda: So same thing: if the pilot is not expert, then goes down to the lowest, finished. Adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ. If the pilot is third class, instead of going up, he goes down, and everything is spoiled. So everything on the pilot. The machine is not important. The machine can go up if the pilot knows how to do it. And the machine can go down. Actually, it is happening. This landing point is very dangerous. If the pilot cannot handle very nicely, immediately smashed. The crash takes place while going up and coming down, generally. That is due to mismanagement of the pilot. When in the sky it is regular speed and balance, it is going nicely. There is no crisis. All crises take place while coming down and going up. Leaving the land and coming the land. I have seen sometimes, they clap as soon as they.... (Prabhupāda claps his hands. Devotees laugh) "The danger is over." So ūrdhvam and adhaḥ. Madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ. So in this way, you have to place the subject matter, that the living entity, the soul, is the important thing within this body. Because he's struggling. On account of his ignorance, he's struggling. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7]. This is his position. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned earlier that not only we have to find out who is the speaker, but who is the proper person to hear the subject matter. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If somebody is interested to know what is the important thing, then he can understand this. And if he's animal, simply eating, sleeping, mating, what he will understand? Animal is not interested to know how the world is going on. He gets his food and sex. That's all. That is animal propensity. And as soon as he comes to the human platform, then inquisitive. "Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa*-traya." Sanātana Gosvāmī.... He's not interested, "How I shall develop my economic position?" He has left already a very high-grade economic position. He's not interested. He's interested "Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya. Actually what is my position? Why I am suffering in this material atmosphere?" That is human life. *Guru*-kṛpā: Arjuna asks also many questions. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kārpaṇya-doṣopahata. Kārpaṇya-doṣa [Bg. 2.7]. "It was my duty to understand myself, and I am thinking of my these nonsense relatives-my grandfather, my son. What is this? I know that. What I can do by thinking about them? It may be they have come to war. But suppose they would have died naturally*-what could I do? So why I am perplexed with these things? I know the defect. I cannot cause their death or birth or existence. It is beyond my jurisdiction. And still, I am anxious: If I kill them, then what would happen? What would happen?" You kill or not kill, they'll be killed, today or tomorrow. Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ [Bg. 2.11]. A learned man knows that the body will be finished, the bodily action, today or tomorrow. So what is to lament after this body? Lamentation is that the person within the body, whether he's going to hell or heaven. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti or tamo gacchanti. That is real concern. Body will be finished, today or tomorrow or after a hundred years. Who can protect it? But one should be interested with the owner of the body, where he is going, what is his next position. And that is clearly stated: adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ [Bg. 14.18]. So you are interested to go up or down or remain in the same status. There are three status: up, down, and the same. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: General mass of people think that life is finished with this body. They're unaware of up or down... *Prabhupāda: Therefore.... Therefore, they're rascals. And for the rascals, the Bhagavad*-gītā teaching is there. Learn! They are giving the stress on the body, that "The body is finished, everything finished." They do not know beyond the body. But the real knowledge begins, "No, you are beyond this body." That is real knowledge. That is the beginning of knowledge. Any other knowledge except this, that is ignorance. That is not knowledge. They are accepting ignorance as knowledge. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is the defect. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so essential. They are accepting ignorance as knowledge. Darwin's theory. It is simply speculation on ignorance, and it has been taken as knowledge. Freud's philosophy is the business of the hogs and dogs, and it has been taken as philosophy. Even the hogs and dogs know how to enjoy sex life. And they are.... On account of sex life, they have written a philosophy. Is that philosophy? Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Find out. The Thirteenth Chapter. Hmm? (devotees look for verse) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another line? Prabhupāda: Find out amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntiḥ [Bg. 13.8], Thirteenth Chapter. *Guru*-kṛpā: Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. Prabhupāda: Anyathā. These rascals, they're in ajñānam, dealing with sex life, dealing with the body as their philosophy, science. Dealing with the body and dealing with sex life is the animal business, and they are passing on as philosopher, scientist. This is their position, the whole world. So how much Kṛṣṇa consciousness is important, just imagine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The goal of knowledge is not there. Prabhupāda: They do not know. And animals.... Therefore they are animals. What the dogs will understand? When there is one lady dog, one dozen dog will come. Smelling the best part of the body. (laughter) This is their philosophy. So Freud is that: best part of the body, he's writing philosophy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Books and books. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Just see. This is the position. How low taste: hogs' and pigs' business, and write philosophy. His books are selling like anything. (pause) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if someone can understand that they're not this body, then immediately he should be able to understand that there's a Supersoul. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already told you just now. Therefore it is very essential to understand. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the approach used by Kṛṣṇa is essential for any person who wants to understand the Supersoul? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Someone in material consciousness cannot understand God? So then what of all these religions, for example, Muslim and Christian religion? Generally speaking, they don't even accept the existence of soul. Prabhupāda: Therefore they're not religion. They're cheating. This is not religion, this is cheating. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So simply they're talking about God? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this? Hari-śauri: This is dob juice, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, you can keep that. Actually, there is no religion. In the name of religion, some farce is going on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. You've said in the past, "Devil citing scripture." *Prabhupāda: Yes. They're eating meat. They have no even human sense. What is that religion? They have no even sense that "I am cutting throat of one poor animal under my protection. If somebody cuts my throat, how much I am unhappy. And I'm doing the same business and I'm human being? How can I call myself a human being? I have no sense even of compassion." Cats and dogs are passing on as religionists. Some hogs and pigs are going on as philosopher. And other animals is going as scientist, Darwin. They're animals only, cats and dogs. They are the leaders of the society. How you can expect any benefit from them? The leaders themselves are cats and dogs, pigs. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. These leaders, they are saṁstutaḥ, they are very much worshiped. By whom? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ. By the dogs, by the pigs, by the.... śva-viḍ-varāha..., camel, and by the ass. Because these particular names, I have explained in the Bhāgavata... So suppose one man has become lion, and he's praised by dogs, camels, asses, and pigs. Naturally, they will praise, "Oh, sir, you are the king." Does it mean he's king? He's animal. So it is going on. They are electing a big animal as president. And when he begins to eat, animal, big animal, then they protest, "Oh, now he's not proper president. Get him down, get him down." But why you sent him? "Because we are pigs; *we have no other knowledge. We another, appoint another big pig as our president." Everything is explained in the Vedic literature. If you can present them properly, it will act. The voters are śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara. And the president is another big animal. That's all. This is transaction of animal kingdom. A lion is the king of some asses, pigs, dogs, and hogs. What business you can expect there? This is their real picture. One who is a human being, he's seeing that how the animals are enjoying by voting and electing president. But they are thinking, "We are busy in a very great business. We are electing president." (laughter) This is going on. [break] ...you say that these rascal pigs, hogs, they elected president, and this president will eat them, and they will understand what kind of president they have elected. This thing is happening in the most advanced country of USA. And what to speak of other animal kingdom. Even the topmost state at the present moment, there also is happening the same thing. And what to speak of other small states. *Guru*-kṛpā: If bhakti-yoga is the..., one can only understand Kṛṣṇa through bhakti-yoga, why did Kṛṣṇa bother to explain karma-yoga and jñāna-yoga through so many... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you..." Prabhupāda: It is to be spoken to the most confidential person. "You are My dear friend; I am talking." Other rascals will not understand. It is especially for Arjuna, not for the common man. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "...I am speaking to you this most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit." Prabhupāda: "That is especial friendship and especial love; so I give you this. Keep it confidential." This is real. Other rascals will not value this. They will protest, "Huh? Why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa?" *Guru*-kṛpā: So what is that confidential? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. "So we have spoken so many other things for other rascals. But you are My friend, very intimate. I tell you, this is real fact." So fact is fact. If you take earlier or later, that is different thing. You have to come. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. One has to take many births before coming to this understanding. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. So everyone is not mahātmā even, what to speak of sudurlabhaḥ. (laughs) (end) *Room Conversation-*-May 2, 1976, Fiji *Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Everyone sees that "Some way or other, I become guru. Then so many persons will offer me respect. Somehow or other, create some situation. Then I become guru." This is going on. Not bona fide guru. Bona fide guru is indicated by Caitanya, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā: "Become guru." Why ambition? Actually become guru. But how to become guru? Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa' [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That's it, otherwise goru. So they will not take this simple method. They will drink, they will hunt after woman and have some attractive singing or dancing and become guru. What is meaning of guru, they do not know. Somehow or other become popular and become guru. This is going on. So with māyā you can attract these foolish rascals very easily. If you can manufacture.... You cannot, but if you can show some jugglery, then you become guru. People are after all these things, material things. They are not after Kṛṣṇa. They are after money and women. So if you give some mantra, then gold will be manufactured, and all women will be attracted, very first class. *Guru*-kṛpā: You know, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that if anyone has power to induce anybody to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, therefore they must have some special power. Therefore that's their qualification. Prabhupāda: That special power, that is said in the śāstras. But people do not want that. *Guru*-kṛpā: Just like, for example, in Bengal before, there was that Charan das Babaji. He induced them to chant the wrong mantra, but where is.... He's not specifically paramparā. *Prabhupāda: No. He chanted for some time and, of course, there was chanting of "Nitāi*-Gaura." He introduced new system of chanting: nitāi-gaura rādhe-śyāma. So the Nitāi-Gaura chanting will have some effect, Kali-yuga. Although he was presenting pervertedly, the beginning was Nitāi-Gaura, so it would have some effect. He did not know actually Nitāi-Gaura. From his words it appears. He used to preach that Nitāi is Rādhārāṇī, and Gaura is Kṛṣṇa. That is siddhānta-viruddha. But some way or other, he was chanting Nitāi-Gaura. So some effect were there. Just like sandalwood. You do not know which way better pulp comes out, but if you rub any way, some pulp will come because it is sandalwood. So he had some effect of chanting Nitāi-Gaura, but later on they deteriorated because they did not know actually, neither they were taught. Siddhānta-viruddha. The siddhānta-viruddha means it will deteriorate. It will not endure. *Guru*-kṛpā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about, say, many of your Godbrothers? They also have disciples, and they also are properly initiated by a proper spiritual master, and they give the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. *Prabhupāda: The thing is the spirit, real service of preaching, stopped. Formality is going on, but the real business.... Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement means āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That is stopped. Do you follow? The formalities is there, but the real life of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is preaching. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa. Tāra means preaching. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa' [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. And that is stopped. They are satisfied if they could construct one temple and beg some rice from the neighborhood: "Sir, we have got some temple," that's all. They are satisfied. The spirit of preaching forward-pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo*-that is stopped. So by hari-nāma, by chanting, by this way, to live little peacefully in the temple and eat and sleep, that much they have got. If that is the success, that success they have got. And this was condemned by my Guru Mahārāja, that "To earn some money by showing Deity in the temple and eat and sleep-better you become a sweeper in the street and earn your honest livelihood and live." This is cheating. This was condemned. To construct a temple.... Just like the Vṛndāvana Gosvāmīs are doing. They thought that "This is our business. Some innocent people will come here and offer some.... Bas, that's our good income." According to the temple's popularity, they think, "This is our success." Therefore they are deteriorating. So that is not success. Success is his who is pushing forward the preaching method. That is his success. And if we think that "By showing a temple Deity we get some money and rice and cloth and just peacefully live here. Don't bother about going to Fiji and all over..." (laughs) That much success they have got. But that is not Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, sarvatra pracāra. What they are doing for that? That is point. *Guru*-kṛpā: What if sometimes disciple, he may go to preach, but he's not preaching in the exact same spirit of his spiritual master? *Prabhupāda: Therefore he is not to be preached. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra: [Cc. Ādi 9.41] "Go to do good to others. First of all you do good to yourself." First of all you become really preacher. Then go to preach. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never sent neophyte to go to preach. For neophyte the preaching is not their business. For neophyte, one should stick to the worship of Deity in the temple. And those who have understood the philosophy, applied the philosophy in his life, he should go for preaching. Otherwise he'll preach wrongly, like.... What is that? Charan das Babaji. And it will stop. He wanted to preach, but he did not know how to preach, and therefore, after his life, it is finished. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not say like that, that "You remain a rascal and go to preach." No. Janma sārthaka kari. "Your first business is that you make your life perfect. Then go to preach. Perfect means you learn how to obey My orders." That is perfection. Āmāra ājñāya. So if you are actually, perfectly carrying out the orders of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then you are preaching. Otherwise you will do wrongly, mislead. Don't do that. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. If you remain blind, don't try to lead other blind men. That is misleading. First of all open your eyes. Everything is there. Nobody can do anything whimsically. If you do whimsically, concoctedly, that will be failure. It will not be effective. *Guru*-kṛpā: Even though one may get many followers, that is not... *Prabhupāda: Many? What you...? Many followers.... The philosophy you present, it must be followed by everyone. That is wanted. You have got, say, ten thousand followers. That does not mean success. Everyone has got some followers. This.... What is that? Guruji Maharaja. He has got also so-called followers. The T.M., he has got also some followers. Everyone has got some followers. But what kind of followers they have? That is quality. Everything has quality. Simply quantity is not. There are many Christians. Even up to date, some Christian fair or.... Many millions will come. What is the quality? Quality is all meat-eater. But Christian means he should not kill. Where is the Christian? So we have to test by the quality, followers. Not many followers, the quality of the followers. My Guru Mahārāja used to say like that, that "If I get at least one quality disciple, then all my labor will be success." He was saying like that: quality, not the quantity. By quantity if one is amazed, then he is also goru. By quality*-what kind of followers? That is the.... From the very beginning my strictures are there, that "You have to follow this"-quality. If I were..., "No, you can do like Vivekananda. Yes, what you can, whatever you like," then I think quantity would have been very, very big. But I don't say. I make him promise before the fire, before the Deity, before guru. [break] That one moon is taken into account. Who takes account of the millions of stars? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ. Quality. So we should be quality devotee, not quantity devotee. I have taken two glasses. Just see how nice water is, tap water. Here so many dobs are available, and this rascal is manufacturing RC and he is going as to be..., business. And for hearing Bhagavad-gītā they have no time, and they are trying to go to Vṛndāvana. Quantity, not quality. So civilization should be quality civilization, not quantity civilization. Do that. Bheḍyadāsana. Bheḍyadāsana (indistinct). Bheḍī, lamb, they are going, hundreds and thousands. They flock. So, and if one bheḍī, lamb, is somehow or other pushed into slaughterhouse stockroom, so all the.... All of them. You haven't got to take many. Some way or other, you induce one of them to go into the, what is called, shed, where stocks are kept for taking out daily and killing. So they do not mind that "We are being pushed into this room for future killing. Never mind. One has gone. Go." They'll go. So this is called in Hindi, bheḍyadāsana, that without any consideration, "One has entered. Let us all enter." That is bheḍī, means animal, their disciple like this. They liked the ceremony? *Guru*-kṛpā: I think we should tell.... Vāsudeva dāsa is getting his brāhmaṇa thread this afternoon? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-kṛpā: Are you giving him his brāhmaṇa initiation this afternoon? Prabhupāda: He has come? *Guru*-kṛpā: No. Prabhupāda: We can do that tomorrow. So it has been settled where we are going? *Guru*-kṛpā: Well, I have to go to the airport this evening. Prabhupāda: No, with Vāsudeva. *Guru*-kṛpā: Yes. He is.... He thought it was best. Prabhupāda: Don't do anything... *Guru*-kṛpā: No, it was his suggestion because he doesn't want it to be another small program. He feels... Prabhupāda: This is also cold water? Hari-śauri: It was. It's still cold. Prabhupāda: Darwin's theory is body is changing, but why it is changing, he does not explain. *Guru*-kṛpā: It's because of nature. You can't explain nature. That's his only answer. Prabhupāda: Nature.... But we also say, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. So it is to be understood that it is being done under superior control. If nature is doing, so nature is superior control. He cannot explain. So if he does not know how nature is working, then what is the value of his theory? If he says that he cannot explain how nature is doing, that means he is not expert. He may be mistaken. So why his opinion or decision should be taken final? He does not know how nature is working. That is not perfect knowledge. Does he say like that, "Nature is working"? *Guru*-kṛpā: Nature. *Prabhupāda: So how nature is working, he does not know. Then his knowledge is imperfect. Nature is working how, that we know. That is very sober understanding. We say that nature is working under the superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Nature.... We see nature. Generally we have got idea of the material nature, that the sun is one of the part and parcel of nature's working. The moon is also, the seasonal changes. So many things, nature is working very systematically. The summer season will appear exactly in the month of June and July. The fall begins in September every year. One can foretell that "Next September this will happen," because nature's routine is very fixed up. So this systematic work of nature, how it is possible if there is no supervision? *Guru*-kṛpā: What they do is they just take it for granted because it's happening so regularly. *Prabhupāda: So that means you have to accept it*-there is superior administration. You may not know what is that administration, but you have to accept it. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, "Under My supervision." Here those who are in the gross ignorance, not intelligent, they can suggest that there is some brain, just like Professor Einstein used to say. But he has no knowledge who is that brain, and we have that knowledge, who is that brain. That brain is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore our knowledge is perfect. They can simply suggest that "There is a brain," but we can say, "Here is the brain." Then it is.... If one knows whose brain it is, that is perfect knowledge. *Guru*-kṛpā: But they have no faith. That's the only difficulty. *Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. You accept some brain. But if somebody comes who is accepted as the brain, they have no faith. That means rascal. Nārada says, "Here is the brain." Brahmā says, "Here is the brain." Śiva says, "Here is the brain." Then ācāryas, Vyāsadeva, says, "Here is the brain." Then modern ācāryas, they say, "Here is the brain." Then why don't you accept? You are so rascal? Just like a person is going to London. So if he says, "I have no faith that this Quantas will carry me to London," then how he will be convinced? How he'll be? If he says that "I have no faith in this Quantas company, that it will carry me to London," and if he does not purchase the ticket*-he has no faith-then who will be loser? The Quantas company will be loser and he will be loser. The rascal who says.... You can say that, that Quantas will carry him to London. You can say that. But if on account of this wrong faith if he does not purchase the ticket, then who will be loser? The Quantas will be loser or he will be loser? If you have no faith, then you are loser. You remain. Rot in this place. Do not try to go to London. What do you think? Eh? Indian man (1): The traveler is the loser. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Guru*-kṛpā: The traveler is the loser. Prabhupāda: Yes, traveler is the loser. If you have no faith, then loser, you are loser. You will never understand. Therefore śāstra says, Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Big, big stalwart ācāryas, mahājanas, they are accepting. Therefore we accept. That is sense. And if you sit down, "No, no, I have no faith," you'll sit down and remain a rascal, that's all. Ādau śraddhā. Therefore faith is the first thing. Ādau śraddhā. If he has got intelligence, he'll see: "So many big, big.... Lord Brahmā accepts. Lord Śiva accepts. Vyāsadeva accepts. Nārada accepts. The ācāryas accept. So am I more than them? No. I will accept." And that is perfection of.... Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. And if still you remain faithless, then you are rascal. Same example can be.... Quantas. So many hundreds are purchasing ticket. They have also never seen London, but on faith they're purchasing ticket. So you have no faith, you don't purchase; *therefore remain here. Without faith you cannot begin to work. The same example: You have gone to a barber shop. He is shaving, and people blindly, closing eyes, and he has got a razor. He can immediately cut. But why do you do this? Because you have faith that "These people are professional barbers. They are shaving so many other people. They will not kill me. All right. Go on." This is faith. And if you have no faith, then you will never have clean shaven. You go away. So beginning is faith, but faith should not be blind. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. You have to take faith from great personalities. That is faith. Just like you American boys and girls. You began with faith. Without faith nothing can be.... Ādau śraddhā. Just like people come, and they get some faith that "So many people are following Swamiji." So he associates for some time. Then he offers himself for initiation. This is the way. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu*-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. And bhajana-kriyā, if he agrees with spiritual master and takes his word, then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Spiritual master says, "You should not do this," and if he follows, then automatically his unnecessary burden is cleansed. This is the way. But faith is the beginning. And that is quite natural. Faith means by seeing others, respectable persons following, "And why not I shall follow?" That is faith. Faith is not also blind. You can see that so many others are doing, "So why I myself?" *Guru*-kṛpā: This faith in the mundane religions, that cannot be called real faith. *Prabhupāda: No, that is faith, but because one is not intelligent, he takes irreligion as religion. He does not.... He should be also very intelligent, faithful and intelligent. Not blind faith. He must be faithful, and intelligence.... He must know what is actually religion. So therefore sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. Associate with sādhus means those who are actually on the platform. So if he associates with the sādhu-the sādhus accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead*-he will get the understanding that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. Then his faith becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. This is the way. *Guru*-kṛpā: So what is the exact meaning of that verse, śraddhā-śabde. That verse... *Prabhupāda: Yes, śraddhā. That faith increase, and when it is increased so much that he fully understands, "By worshiping Kṛṣṇa, everything is done," that is first-class faith. Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya [Cc. Madhya 22.62]. If he becomes fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is first-class, means fulfillment of faith. In the beginning it might be doubtful, neophyte. But when that is, that faith is fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is the fulfillment of faith. Faith also there are different stages, improvement. Devotional service means different grades of faith. Today I am in one stage of faith, next day another stage, next day another stage, next day another stage. And when you come to the stage that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], oh, that is final. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That takes time. And quickly also, if one is fortunate. If one is intelligent-"The śāstra says, 'Vāsudeva is everything,' so why not take Vāsudeva everything?"-then he gains the result immediately. And if he thinks, "All right, let me see for some time," so he may waste his time, but the point is the same. Point is the same, but he has not developed his faith to such extent. You have to wait. And intelligent person, he says, "Why shall I wait? Let me take finally vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. That business is finished." Sa mahātmā. Therefore it is said, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That kind of staunch faith is not very easy. It is for the great personality. Immediately accepts. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Immediately accepts: "Yes." Then sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is not very easily done. That means yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām [Bg. 7.28]. He is completely free from all reaction of sinful life. Puṇya-karmaṇām*-he is only engaged in pious activities. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānām, te dvandva-moha... He has no more doubt. Dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ. He has no doubt. "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person." That's it. That's all. If you take by argument, reason, you may waste your time. But if you are intelligent, you can take it on the evidence of mahājano yena gataḥ, all the mahājanas. They are mahājanas. "Prahlāda has taken, Bhīṣmadeva has taken, Janaka Mahārāja has taken, Lord Brahmā has taken, Lord Śiva has taken, Nārada has taken, Kapila has taken.... What I am?" (laughs) That is intelligence. "Why I am waiting on my intelligence?" That is real. But this rascal is thinking more than Brahmā, Nārada, Kapila, Prahlāda. He is thinking he is more than them. That means rascal, overintelligent. Overintelligent means rascal. Intelligence means you must have reason. And if he is going beyond reason, only depending on himself, then he is overintelligent rascal. You understand overintelligent rascal? Don't be overintelligent. That is very risky. Be intelligent. Overintelligent means rascal. Spoiling. Just like milk. You are heating, and if you give overheat, spoil so many. That kind of heating is not required. You just push on heat as much required. Otherwise you'll spoil by your intelligence. Devotee (2): They say that one should try to.... In order to approach the spiritual master one must... Prabhupāda: Purchase? Devotee (2): Approach. Approach. One must become perfect to start with. One must approach a perfect spiritual master and he must become perfect disciple. Could you explain that? Prabhupāda: Yes. He should follow spiritual master. Then he is perfect disciple. Bring water with ice. (end) *Morning Walk-*-May 3, 1976, Fiji Prabhupāda: Never mind he's very nicely dressed. But because he is not surrendered soul to Kṛṣṇa, he is a miscreant. That's all Beware of him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can anyone be said to be innocent in this world? Prabhupāda: There are three classes: one devotee, one innocent, and one envious. So we have nothing to do with the envious. With devotee, we shall make friendship, and to the innocent, we shall preach. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But the innocent souls, they're not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: He'll surrender. You teach him. Because he's innocent, he does not know. But you preach, he will become. That is our duty. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So persons who we preach to and give the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to... Prabhupāda: Then let.... If anyone hears very attentively, that means he's innocent. He should be given attention. And one who says, "Why Kṛṣṇa Bhagavān? Ramakrishna Bhagavān." Oh, that's rascal, immediately. Take him, rascal. That's all. Finished. Created God. Huh? This Ramakrishna Mission has created God. God cannot be created. God is God. This is anthropomorphism. Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Right. Yes. Prabhupāda: Zoomorphism. *Guru*-kṛpā: These people that say that they are God, they should be taken to court and thrown in jail for misrepresentation. Prabhupāda: No, that is by.... There are some.... But first of all, if somebody creates God, then he should be challenged that "Where is your, what is your definition of God? If you were created God, corroborate with the definition. Then we accept." This is very logical. We can ask anybody, "What is your definition of God? What do you mean by God?" Then he has to explain. This is the point. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, once you told a man, "What is your definition of God?" And he could not answer. And you answered him that "God means the Supreme Being." And you said, "You are saying you are God, but you don't even know the definition of God. So how you are God?" Prabhupāda: Yes. If you do not know what is God, how can you say that "Here is God"? You cannot say. [break] One who is after God, he'll accept our philosophy. But the, those who are rogues, who want to banish God or kill God, they'll not accept. So we have to avoid such persons. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Persons who are too much sinful... Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...they can't give up their sinful activities even after hearing about Kṛṣṇa, are they in the envious class or the innocent class? *Prabhupāda: They're envious. Sinful means that is the cause of their becoming envious. [break] ...law. Religion means the order of God. Simple definition. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Just like law, we keep to the right or left, order of the government. One who obeys this law, he's good citizen. One who disobeys, he's rascal. Similarly, dharma means the order of God. So one who obeys the order of God, he is really religious. One who does not, he's rogue, duṣkṛtina. This is simple. [break].... Christian. Now, what is the order of God? The Ten Commandments. If one abides by the Ten Commandments, he's really Christian. Take Buddhism; *if he abides by the order of Lord Buddha, then he's right. Take Muhammadans even. So it may be one is Muhammadan, one is Christian, or one is Buddhist, one is Hindu, but if he abides by the order of God, then he's religious. Otherwise bogus. We are concerned Vedic religion. Our conclusion is that to approach Lord Viṣṇu. Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. This is Vedic, Ṛg*-mantra. Or Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. If one abides by this, then he's religious, or really religious. If he does not obey, then where is the religion? There is no religion. The instruction is here. One has to understand the philosophy from Bhagavad-gītā rightly and appreciate, himself, and preach. This is wanted. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes we hear that, from different religions, one should have faith in God. One should have faith in God. Prabhupāda: Unless one has faith, how he'll surrender? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But we see that persons, they speak of having faith without actually following the instruction of God. *Prabhupāda: That means he's rascal! What is the meaning of faith? If you don't surrender, where is the meaning of faith? He's a rascal. When the surrender comes? When I have got full faith-"Oh, Kṛṣṇa is God, He's saying surrender. All right, let me surrender"*-that is faith. "Yes, I have faith, but I don't surrender." What is this nonsense? *Guru*-kṛpā: "But we have weaknesses. Temptation is very strong." Prabhupāda: That is another. You strongly pray to Kṛṣṇa. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Then it will be possible. And if you have got less faith, then it will..., you'll have to suffer. You'll have to suffer. Upendra: We sometimes see that those who have faith in their religious process, but because in their... Prabhupāda: But that is not faith, that is rascaldom. If you have faith, you must abide by the religious process. If you don't follow, that means you have no faith. Upendra: But sometimes we meet a rare soul who does follow, but because there's no mention of Kṛṣṇa in his scripture... *Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question of Kṛṣṇa religion.... If he believes in God and the God's word is religion, so he must follow the God's law. It doesn't matter. Kṛṣṇa is another name of God. But God is the same, one, either you call Kṛṣṇa, or Govinda, or this or that. Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śaktiḥ. First of all, one must be faithful to God. That you may call God or Allah, it doesn't matter. But you must know what is God and what is faith to God, what is definition of God, what do you mean by "understand God." These things are required. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So that must become the practice of... Prabhupāda: Practice is no question. We have to talk with science. Practice, you have practiced something which is against religion. That should not be taken. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's become the fashion of world... *Prabhupāda: Fashion? Your fashion, kick on the face! No fashion! (devotees laugh) It is a science. It is not the question of fashion, a false faith, belief. These are all rascals. Science is science. Two plus two equal to four. That's all. There is no question of "I have no faith in this. I say five!" That will not be accepted. Two plus two equal to four. It is neither five nor three. If that truth is there, then there is faith. "God is this, and sometimes God is this"*-that is no understanding of God. You must have clear understanding of God. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the quality of a person who is actually faithful? *Prabhupāda: He's accepting eagerly Bhagavad*-gītā if he's really follower of God. Because there is nothing extraordinary in the Bhagavad-gītā. It is the words actually for God to speak. You may call Kṛṣṇa or otherwise, but.... Just like sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. This can be said by God only. Otherwise who can say that "You give up everything; surrender unto Me"? It can be said by God only. Either you talk of Hindu or Muslim, but ask one that "If God says, 'You surrender unto...,' will you refuse?" Let him become Muslim or Christian. So nobody can refuse the order of God. That is faithfulness. *Guru*-kṛpā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, why are there so many pseudo religions then? Prabhupāda: There is no religion! This is the only religion. *Guru*-kṛpā: Then why do they mingle at all? Why do they even get involved? Prabhupāda: Therefore we say that one who has no faith in God, he's a rascal, miscreant. *Guru*-kṛpā: But they pretend. *Prabhupāda: Pretend? Kick them! Why you should accept pretension? Then you are a fool also. You say "pretend," and still, you have to talk about them. That means you are also faithless. Why should you talk about the pretension? Pretension is pretension. That is faithlessness. Sometimes they pretend honest, but he's a thief. What is this philosophy? Thief is thief. That's all. [break] ...thoroughly the science of God. That is Bhagavad*-gītā. The words which is spoken in the Bhagavad-gītā, that can be spoken only by God. Nobody else can speak like that. Who can say? Who has the right to say that "You surrender unto Me"? Nobody has right. Only God can say. That is God. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Enviousness is caused by sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Enviousness is caused by sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And in the Fifteenth Chapter of the Seventh Canto, in one verse you mention that enviousness can be given up if one gives up the tendency to sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So we see sometimes that the Māyāvādīs, they have perhaps given up the affairs of this world, but still, they remain envious, inimical towards Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Then? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So, how... Prabhupāda: What he has given up? (laughter) What he has given up? You say he has given up; what he has given up? "I have given up everything, but I remain proprietor." What is this, given up? There is not, no "given up." The contradiction's there. One who has given up, what he has given up? He has not given up his personality. Then what he has given up? In Bengali it says that rasamba sataya chaibe tyāga,(?) (indistinct) that "In the room, whatever is there, it is yours. But I lock it, I keep the key." (laughter) (Bengali) "I have given up." What you have given up? You have kept the keys. So we have to accept that he's given up? This is another foolishness. [break] So the first question will be, "You rascal, what you have got in your possession that you are giving up? If you have something, then you can give up. What you have got, first of all tell me. You haven't got anything. Even this body is not yours. As soon as God will kick you, you have to go out. Then what is yours? You say 'I have given up.' What you can give up? Nothing is yours." That is rascaldom: "I have given up everything; *I kept the key." From here, for a few days we are walking. And while going, if I say, "Now this land I give you," where your land? Where you possess this land? This is like that. What you can give up? What is yours? You have nothing. This is nonsense. "I have given up." First of all, prove what you have got. If you haven't got anything, then what is to give up? This is all nonsense. Īśāvāsyam idam sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything God's property. So there is no question of giving up. Because everything belongs.... I also belong to God. My body, my mind, everything is given by God. Where you get this mind? Where you get this body? It is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā: bhūmir āpaḥ analaḥ vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva, prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā. He claims, "It is My property. What you have got? And you are also My part and parcel. So why you are...?" This is all nonsense, that "I give up." What you can give up? You cannot give up, you cannot enjoy. That is your position. If you enjoy, you are a thief. And if you say, "I have given up," you are a false. Therefore sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Somebody is thinking "I am giving up, and now I've taken laṅgoṭā, (?)(indistinct) I have become sannyāsī." And whose laṅgoṭā it is? You have got still the laṅgoṭā. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The...? The...? *Prabhupāda: Laṅgoṭā means the loincloth. So what is it you have given up? And you cannot give up your body. This is made, this kṣitir ap*-tejo-marud-vyoma, (indistinct) these five elements, they're also Kṛṣṇa's. You have got mind. Oh, that belongs to Kṛṣṇa. What you have got that you'll give up? You have stolen everything. You don't accept the real proprietor, and you are thinking, "I am the proprietor." That is your fault. That is miscreant. Stena eva sa ucyate [Bg. 3.12]. It is said there. Read Bhagavad-gītā carefully, that everyone is a thief. Stena eva sa ucyate. All thiefs, rogues, rascals. That is the substance. If one does not accept God, the Supreme, and does not surrender, he is miscreant, mūḍha. Mūḍha. He does not know what does he possess, and he's thinking, "I am giving up." What you are giving up? You do not possess anything. A mūḍha, falsely thinking that "I am giving up." What you have got? Nobody can give up, nobody can enjoy. This is real knowledge. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa: [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109] "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. Everything possessed by Kṛṣṇa. So I'll simply try to offer Kṛṣṇa whatever is there for His..." Just like nokara (indistinct), servant, in a house, he's trying to satisfy the master. But the things does not belong to him. The things belongs to the master. But if he serves very nicely, master becomes pleased, "Oh, he is very faithful servant. Perfect." Faithful means he knows that "Everything belongs to master, and everything should be utilized for master's pleasure, not for my pleasure." Then he's a thief, he's a bad servant. *Guru*-kṛpā: Prabhupāda, what about these people that perform so-called bhakti-yoga but their aim is to merge? *Prabhupāda: Hmm? That is not bhakti*-yoga. That is not bhakti-yoga. Who says that is bhakti-yoga? *Guru*-kṛpā: I said "so-called" bhakti-yoga. Prabhupāda: That, that is not.... Cheating! That is another cheating. (Hindi) There is the same example. "Now I am serving the master. Just as soon as the master will be somewhere, I'll take everything." That kind of servant. Servant serving the master, but the intention is that "As soon as master is away, I'll take everything." (laughter) "I'll become Nārāyaṇa. Let me serve now Nārāyaṇa, and as soon as there is the opportunity, I shall become Nārāyaṇa." They are thieves, rogues, these duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ. Very faithful servant. He's planning how to usurp everything belonging to the master, and saying, "I am very faithful servant." Caitanya Mahāprabhu is teaching mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī tvayi [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4]. "Life after life, let me serve You." That's all. Never willing to become master. That is Māyāvāda. [break] ...don't want even salvation. Therefore He says, janmani janmani, "life after life." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...go back to Godhead can be sense gratification? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also a contaminated desire. Otherwise why Caitanya will say mama janmani, to go? Kṛṣṇa says, yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramam [Bg. 15.6]. If one goes to Vaikuṇṭha he does not come. But Caitanya also says He does not desire that. He is.... "Let me remain perpetually here, but be engaged in Your service." That is real, pure devotee. He doesn't want even promotion. That is also mentioned now: dīyamānaṁ na gṛhṇanti. Dīyamānam, even Kṛṣṇa says, "Come immediately to Vaikuṇṭha," "Sir, that is for..." Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Prahlāda Mahārāja was offered, "Whatever you like, you take." "Sir, do not make me a bāniyā (indistinct)." [break] But if anyone wants in exchange of service, then he's not a devotee, he's a bāniyā (merchant). *Guru*-kṛpā: Is that a merchant? Prabhupāda: Huh? Merchant, yes. *This is prayer. No exchange. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura: kīṭa*-janma hau jathā tuwā dās. "If You want that I shall continue, yes, that's all right." That is full surrender. And on condition, "Sir, You'll take me to Vaikuṇṭha; therefore I'm surrendered." That is conditioned, that is bāniyā (indistinct). *Guru*-kṛpā: So actually back to home, back to Godhead, means just back to devotional service. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because a devotee is always in Vaikuṇṭha. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. He is already in Vaikuṇṭha. Why he shall for that, Vaikuṇṭha? He's not in this material world. Muktiḥ svayaṁ mukulitāñjali sevate 'smān. This is called mukti. "The mukti? Why shall I accept mukti? Mukti is standing on my door: 'What shall I do, sir?' So why shall I ask for mukti?" [break] Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. First make all desires zero. That is the beginning of bhakti. Why should you desire anything? *Guru*-kṛpā: Then they say, "Why you desire to serve Kṛṣṇa?" *Prabhupāda: Huh? That is not desire. It is a natural. That is natural. Obedience to Kṛṣṇa, that is my natural business. Servant's business is always ready: "What can I do, sir?" This is not desire. This is natural position. He's not desiring anything. He's simply ready, "What can I do?" Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. That is, he's not desiring anything. Desire means when I want something for my satisfaction, that is desire. [break] ...mukha*-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya. He's simply expecting what spiritual master will order. Citta. Āra nā koriho... He has no other desire. That is desirelessness. [break] Desireless means a wooden stone. It has no mind, how it can de.... But every living entity has got mind, so this is desirelessness, that "I'll wait for the order of my master and immediately execute." That is desirelessness. .... [break] stop functioning, then what is the meaning of guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya **? That means awaiting the order from the mouth of guru. Āra nā koriho mane. He has no other desires. That is to be under.... [break] Nirvāṇa, nirvāṇa means that you give up all material desires. Not that "But he did not say anything more than that." Because it was meant for the fourth-class men, so he did not say. He simply asked that you finish this material desire. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that not misleading? Prabhupāda: It is not misleading. It is truth, but the truth as much as you can understand. It is not misleading because Lord Buddha knew that "This rascal will not understand more than this." So he did not say further knowledge. *Guru*-kṛpā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, so some of our men, when we sell our books, sometimes we have to say things in order to get them to take the book. So that's actually not misleading. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is not misleading. Let him take, some way or other. [break] Why do you think was done by Lord Buddha? Because the atheist class, they did not believe in God: "There is no God." So Buddha said, "Yes, there is no God. You are right. But what I say, you accept." "Yes, sir." But he's God. Keśava dhṛta*-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. We know that Lord Buddha is Kṛṣṇa. But he says, "No, no, there is.... No, there is no God. Yes, you are right. But what I say, you accept." "Yes, sir, we shall do that." *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Buddha's name is also considered hari*-nāma? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Buddha's name is also considered hari*-nāma? Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Holy name? If one chants... Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. He is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. *Guru*-kṛpā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what does the word "buddha" mean? *Prabhupāda: Buddha means "one who knows, in perfect awareness." That is buddha. Buddha. In Bhagavad*-gītā this word is there, buddha. From buddha, budh-dhātu. [break] ...see the Sanskrit word, bodhave. Budha-bhāva-samanvitāḥ [Bg. 10.8]. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you mentioned two different types of servitors. One is seeking to steal the property of the master as soon as the master is gone, and the other is sitting waiting... Prabhupāda: He's thief; *he's not servant. He's a thief. He has taken service as a matter of means that "If I remain as a servant, I'll get the opportunity of stealing." So he's not a servant, he's a thief. Stena eva sa ucyate [Bg. 3.12]. [break] ...becoming a thief, if you have got some desire, you ask, "Kṛṣṇa, I am very poor. Please give me some money." That you can do. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Ārto jijñāsur arthārthī jñānī ca bharatarṣabha. Ārtaḥ, one who is distressed, he's praying. That is beginning. But when he's advanced.... Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He'll say, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varam..., "Now I'm satisfied. I don't want anything." That is perfect stage. But even one goes to God and prays for something, he's called pious. Because he has approached God. And because he has approached God and he's asking God, there is some transaction in this way, by association of God, he'll be purified. One day he will say, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce [Cc. Madhya 22.42], "Now, I am fully satisfied. I don't want anything. I don't trouble You. Let me serve You." [break] Why the devotee will ask from God? Kṛṣṇa says, yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham, teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānām [Bg. 9.22]. He says the responsibility, "I shall supply everything, whatever you want." So why the devotee will ask? If the child knows, "My father is there, my mother is...," why he shall ask? The father will take care whatever he wants. It is unfaithful that "God cannot supply my necessities. I'll have to ask Him." He knows everything. Why shall I ask Him? That is pure knowledge. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...circumstance there for someone who's endeavoring very hard for material necessities? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Someone who is endeavoring very hard for material necessities, is his position the same*-faithless? Prabhupāda: I do not follow. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One who is going to... *Prabhupāda: Everyone is working hard for material benefit. So why someone? Everyone. Who is not working for material necessities? Āhāra*-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca saman... If the cats, dogs, human being, everybody is working very hard. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Say, for example, one who is engaged simply in preaching. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One who is engaged simply in preaching. Prabhupāda: He's serving Kṛṣṇa. He's not material necessities. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So Kṛṣṇa is supplying all facility at least to maintain body and soul together. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. I went to your country without any money. Now Kṛṣṇa has given. I went with forty rupees; now I have forty crores. Who has done this business? So if you serve Kṛṣṇa, so Kṛṣṇa will supply everything, whatever you need, require. He doesn't require to ask for it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The question then is, is a devotee required to work very hard for material necessities? Prabhupāda: Yes. He has to work sincerely to serve Kṛṣṇa. Then everything is there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even he doesn't consider material necessity? Prabhupāda: Where is material necessity? Even for the cats and dogs, there is no material necessities. It is all supplied by Kṛṣṇa. It is simply māyā that "I am in material necessities." There are eight million lower species of life. Who is doing business for his...? We, simply civilized men, we are doing this. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is supplying everyone. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He supplies everything. Even the ant within the hole of your room, are you giving any food? Devotees: No. Prabhupāda: Then how he's living? And the elephant in the forest of Africa. Who is going to give them food? How they're living? From the elephant to the ant, He's providing, and He cannot provide you. This is all mistaken idea. You haven't got to ask. Everything is there. Because in the.... [break] ...accustomed to sense gratification life after life, we are habituated to ask. That is a habit. "Habit is the second nature." Actually, we don't require. These dogs, they are not asking, going to the church for asking, "God, give us our daily bread." Where he is getting bread? [break] Dogs are enjoying, but they are not asking bread from God. And where they are getting? (bird chirping in background.) [break] ...how he's chirping so nicely. But he has no anxiety. He knows that "I'll get my food anywhere. That's all right." The bird has got the sense, confidence: "Yes, I'll get." And that's a fact. *Guru*-kṛpā: They're living day to day. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Guru*-kṛpā: They are living day to day. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. God has given everyone; you'll get your food. Therefore śāstra says, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām... [SB 1.5.18]. "Don't try for anything else. Simply try how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious." That is your only business. Other things will come. If you're destined to get something, you'll get it. Tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham. Just like nobody asks for distress, how it comes? You are destined to get it. Similarly, whatever happiness you are destined to..., you'll get it. Why you are busy about distress and happiness? You simply try to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. (pause) Now? No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk to the end. We got here at 6:15. [break] *Prabhupāda: He's giving to the human form of life, who can understand. So if we miss this opportunity, that is our misfortune. Last instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā: sarva-guhyatamam, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. He never says that "Try for economic development." (laughs) Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām... It is the most confidential knowledge. [break] ...Purī was chanting in a solitary place, and Kṛṣṇa came to supply him milk. Why? His determination was that "If somebody gives me voluntarily, I shall eat. Otherwise, I am not going to ask anybody." But he is being supplied. *Guru*-kṛpā: Sanātana Gosvāmī also? *Prabhupāda: Yes. But for a renounced order of life, the order is you must beg, bhikṣā. Not much. If I can subsist by taking one cāpāṭi, I'll simply ask for one cāpāṭi, not for two cāpāṭis. That is śāstra. If you can without any cāpāṭi, that is very good. But you can ask as much as you require. Not to eat sumptuously and sleep twenty*-four hours, no. Devotee: And what about householders? Prabhupāda: Householder can eat the whole world and sleep. (laughter) Because he is householder, he has got the concession. Everyone should do that. Householders are unable; that is their incapability. "Because I am householder, I have got the facility to have sex as many times and eat as much..." That is not householder. That is gṛhamedhī. There are two words: gṛhamedhī and gṛhastha. Gṛhastha is different from gṛhamedhī. Gṛhastha āśrama. Although he's householder, it is āśrama, only for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is gṛhastha. But gṛhamedhī cannot do that. [break] ...man has got the potency. Otherwise why they are offering...? Everyone has got the potency. We have to utilize it. Hare Kṛṣṇa. You understand English? Indian (indistinct): Yes, Guruji. *Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. [break] ...Bhagavad*-gītā. Dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi, "Sex life which is not against religious principles, I am that." Not that sex life, as soon as you like, sex. That is not gṛhastha. That is gṛhamedhī. Dharmāviruddha. Dharma-aviruddha means simply for begetting nice child you can have..., not for enjoyment. Putrārthe kriyate bhāryā. This is Vedic principle. Putraḥ-piṇḍa-prayojanam. A bhāryā, wife, is accepted only for having son. Not for any other purpose. Putraḥ-piṇḍa-prayojanam. This is material side, but still, it is religious. First education is brahmacārī, how to train him to avoid sex life. And still if he's not able, then he is allowed to become a gṛhastha, a little concession. Otherwise, the whole Vedic civilization is: how to avoid sex life. Brahmacārī-no sex life. Vānaprastha-no sex life. Sannyāsa-no sex life. Only gṛhastha, under control. That is gṛhastha. Gṛhastha does not mean one who is doing everything whimsically on account of getting this concession. He's not gṛhastha, he's gṛhamedhī. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. Śrotavyādīni rājendra nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ, apaśyatām ātma-tattvam... [SB 2.1.2]. Gṛhamedhī means he does not know what is spiritual life. That is gṛhamedhī. And gṛhastha means he knows what is spiritual life, and he lives on that status. That is gṛhastha. Gṛhamedhī's definition is.... Everything is there in the śāstra. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam. They do not know what is the aim of life. It is like something, something like cats and dogs. They do not know. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam [SB 2.1.2]. [break] So he'll speak to you. You know English, you can read books. Fijian (indistinct): Yes. *Prabhupāda: Very good idea.... [break] ...Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be all right. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has blessed: ihā haite sarva*-siddhi haibe tomāra. "Every perfection you'll get by chanting." That is His blessing. Indian: (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: That's nice. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian: (indistinct) ...he works in town council. Prabhupāda: Oh, he's South Indian. Indian: South Indian. (end) *Room Conversation-*-May 3, 1976, Fiji *Prabhupāda: (tape very distorted) They are not beggar. But Kṛṣṇa has assured, yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahām... Why they should go to beg? That this is only a process to approach them. If you approach any gentleman as beggar, he'll give you, at least in India. Not.... Just to enlighten, give them education. [break] He's thinking, "This is life." And the sannyāsī's duty is: "No, not this is life. You are in darkness, mūḍha." That is sannyāsī's business: to enlighten. [break] ...everything, and only for understanding future, they'll be left on the hand of the nature. Is that very good proposal? Hmm? No. There must be. Indian man: But they have process. They earn wealth. That's all. And no future for the child, they don't... Prabhupāda: Because they have no education. The guru's duty is to give them education; the sannyāsī's duty is to give.... They do not give. They say, "Yes, you are all right. Give me some money." That's all. That they go: "I am avatāra, I am this, I am that," that's all. And he is.... He return (indistinct) to darkness. That's all. [break] ...they used to discover, whole method is finished. Hari-śauri: Oh, yeah. During the war. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Yes. So sinful means punishment. (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Our point is that we are going to live in the future. So if, becoming modern, we forget our future, then what is the use of becoming modernized? Better remain primitive. The business is that in future also we shall exist. If we do not know how we shall exist*-either I shall exist as a cat, as a dog, or a tree, or a demigod, or as associate of Kṛṣṇa.... If I do not know.... On account of being modernized, if I remain in darkness about my future, so it is better to remain primitive. What is the use of becoming modernized and forget myself and my future? Becoming modernized, if I become dog in future, so what is the use of modernized? The real business is that I shall take care of my future. Especially in the human form of body. Cats and dogs, they do not know about future. If I know there is future, I have a future.... This is also said by Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: [Bg. 2.13] "In future." Not this body, another body. So is it not my first business, to prepare what is my future body? That is my first business? Or to drink R.C. (Royal Crown?) my first business? Just see. By drinking R.C. if I, next life I become a dog, then what is the use of modernized life? And if we, by remaining in primitive state, we can produce Vyāsadeva, oh, it is better. But the fools have no sense. Suppose if I go to some place for some business, and going there, to select my hotel, which hotel I shall enter, I remain busy to find out the hotel, and I forget the business for which I have gone there, then am I not madman? A human life is meant for deciding his future. If we do not care for the future, and if I want to become modernized from primitive life, is that very good inclination? Real business forgotten, but I am busy with modernized life. That example I give sometimes, (Bengali). That one has to go to see a fair on account of (Bengali). So women, they generally dress themself very nicely. So the woman say to his friend that "You dress." So dressing, dressing, dressing.... In the meantime, the fair finished. So the modern civilization is like that. (Bengali) I have to go to see the fair, but I became so much attentive in dressing that in the meantime news came, "The fair is finished." That is our civilization. A human life is meant for preparing for the next life. That is sensible. But I am so much busy in manufacturing things for modernized life, R.C., T.C., P.C., and so on, so on. In future, at the time of death, I begin to bark and I think, "Oh..." And nature will say, "All right, come on." "No, no, I'm not going to..." No, why not? You have become modernized, barking like dog. So you bark. Who will check that? Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā... [Bg. 7.14]. māyā will take consideration, "What you have made yourself, a dog or god?" That she will take account. If you have made yourself a dog, "Just come on, become a dog." If you have made yourself as god, then "Come on, you'll be demigod." That is for everything. Otherwise why there are varieties? There is dog life and there is demigod life, Indra life. It is not one-sided. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], it is not one-sided. You have to change your body. And there are varieties of life, so it is up to you what kind of body you have got. You can change your body up to the point of becoming associate of Kṛṣṇa. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām [Bg. 9.25]. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma... [Bg. 15.6]. These informations are there. So if you have to prepare for the next life, why not go back to home, back to Godhead? Yad gatvā na nivartante. This is intelligent? Or to become modernized and become a dog next life? Which is intelligent? The śāstra says, "No, this is intelligent." What? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. This life should be utilized for tapasya, to purify your existence. That is the śāstra. Śāstra does not say you become modernized. What is this modernized? Simply waste of time. *Guru*-kṛpā: Polished. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Guru*-kṛpā: Polished dogs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Actual modernized means how far you have advanced in spiritual consciousness. That is wanted. (drinks or eats) It does not taste exactly dahl, I think, due to the new (indistinct) water in it. So is there any engagement? Somebody was to come. *Guru*-kṛpā: Was to come, but... Prabhupāda: He is not coming. Who is not modernized? They will go to the dancing party for their salvation. (laughter) Dog dancing. *Guru*-kṛpā: Today is Sunday. Everyone is busy with their family, family, society. Prabhupāda: You know this Ravi Shankar? *Guru*-kṛpā: Umm hmm. *Prabhupāda: His elder brother, Udar Shankar, he became very famous man as a dancer, all over the world. Udar Shankar. And by imitating his brother, the Ravi Shankar also tried to become first*-class sitarist. So family.... [break] ...was a little famous for artistic.... So that Udar Shankar was dancing in the Indian way, and there are many sculpture of dancing. Like that. That was his art. So he became famous. *Guru*-kṛpā: He's not living? He's dead? Prabhupāda: No, he's dead means now he's old man. He's about my age or little older than me. Now his skin has become slackened and body is not so strong to dance. It requires exercise. Therefore he's retired, I think, maybe dead. But I don't hear his name. He was more or less known in Europe as Shankar. But he was so popular that one my doctor friend.... He was educated in London, a medical officer of Allahabad. So he told me that "I saw that in Paris, Udar Shankar's dancing was advertised, and hundreds and thousands of people from England going to Paris, crossing the Channel to see him dance." He showed me. He's so popular. And now nobody asks for him. (laughs) *Guru*-kṛpā: Another bubble. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Guru*-kṛpā: Another bubble. I remember when Ravi Shankar and George Harrison came to see you in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: The first thing you asked them was "You are very famous, but what will you be next life? What is your guarantee for the next life?" Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: And I don't think any other guru would have asked that. Prabhupāda: Where is guru? Goru, you say goru. When it is pronounced guru, I say, you say, don't say guru, but you say goru. *Guru*-kṛpā: Goru. Prabhupāda: Goru, no, do you know goru? Goru means cow. *Guru*-kṛpā: Cow. (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughing) Otherwise they're going to find out, then don't say goru. Guru. *Guru*-kṛpā: Guru. *Prabhupāda: Goru means cow. Śrī*-guru-caraṇa-padma. Śrī-guru. (laughs) So they're all gorus, nobody guru. *Guru*-kṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: All rascals. Now that Ravi Shankar has become George guru. Somebody.... You were telling me? That this boy has been taught to take the dust of the feet of Ravi Shankar in the stage, and people did not like it. So he has become unpopular accepting a goru. (end) *Room Conversationwith Siddha*-svarüpa--May 3, 1976, Honolulu Prabhupāda: ...by taking birth of any, whether the tree is taking birth or the ant is taking birth and the fish is taking birth. Everywhere, living entities, they are taking birth, that's all. And they are dying also. And between birth and death there is disease and old age. So during birth one cannot understand, because there is unconscious stage. So even the fetus is killed, it cannot under..., because fully unconscious stage. And there is life undoubtedly; otherwise how the fetus all of a sudden gets life? But these mūḍhas cannot see it. Here in this matter there is no life; therefore many thousands of years, if you kill, it will never show any symptom of life. But if there is life, at a time it will come to consciousness. Just like fainted man is lying like a dead man, but he is not dead. There is life. It is fainted, unconscious state. So because there is life, he may lie down in that unconscious state for two, three hours; again he'll come. It is common sense. And if a log, wood log, is lying flat, will it come to life, anything? But because these mūḍhas, they are taking that "Fetus has no life. Kill it, finish it and eat it." It is going on. You know that? *Siddha*-svarūpa: I imagined that it would soon go on, on a mass scale, that... *Prabhupāda: No, it will go, because they are becoming more mūḍhas. There is no intelligence. Therefore I say that we are giving this intelligence. This is the only movement to make these mūḍhas intelligent. This is the only movement. Otherwise they are becoming more and more and more and more mūḍhas. So under the circumstances, if we also become mūḍhas, then who will make the other mūḍhas intelligent? That is my point. There are so many things. I'll begin this, I mean to say, recitation of Sixth Canto. There are so many nice instructions. So this... [break]...even they are kept to remain as mūḍhas, all other so*-called attempts... There are many other attempts for awakening the human society to right platform, but their basic principle is wrong. They cannot do it. It is not possible. (pause) So there is no kīrtana? *Guru*-kṛpā: Yeah. At seven. The āratika is at seven. Ten minutes. Now it's tulasī worship. Prabhupāda: So this movement should be pushed very vigorously. And so far, we have become successful. And enemies will be always, as soon as there is something good. That is the way of material world. Even Kṛṣṇa had enemies, what to speak of us. Eh? So many enemies, but He was powerful; *He killed all them. Nobody could kill Him, but there was attempt to kill Him from the very beginning of His birth. He had so many enemies. As soon as Kaṁsa heard that his sister is now newly married, but as soon as there was some foretelling, "Ah, you are taking care of your sister so nicely. The eighth child of this sister will kill you." "Oh, where is your child? Where is pregnancy?" Nothing. He became angry. "So why wait for eighth child? Kill my sister." Long, long before taking birth of Kṛṣṇa, the mother was to be killed. This is the position of this material world. So he became so bad that "My sister..." He did not consider that "She is my sister, and she is just newly married. Where is pregnancy? Where is child? And that is the eighth child, and what will happen after that?" No consideration. Immediately, "Kill him, kill her." This is the position. So we are instructing: no intoxication. So those who are flourishing by selling cigarettes and wine and liquor, they do not... "Immediately kill him." Oh, yes, in this way. "If they, the movement goes and becomes very strong, then our business will be lost. Kill him." So naturally they will be enemies. The same thing, the Kaṁsa saw that "This my sister, now she is married. So although it will take some long time, but here is the cause." So they are thinking like that. No meat*-eating, then all slaughterhouses will be closed: "They're enemy." Although there is no such symptom that slaughterhouse is going to be closed, but they'll think like that. They'll think like that, the same way. There is no ex... [break] ...pregnancy, first, second, third, then eighth, and the child will go, take birth and... They are thinking like that. So the modern civilization, we are everyone saying. Because you have forbidden: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling. The whole Western world living on these four pillars. Just see our position. And the same conscious way, everyone is thinking, "If this movement goes on, then how all these nightclubs will go on? How all breweries will go on? How all slaughterhouse will go on, cigarette factories will go on?" This is all foolish. So you cannot expect that we will get more, many friends. That is not possible, because the world is full of Kaṁsas, demons. So we have to struggle and... In the face of so many obstacles we have come to this standard that there is one Hare Kṛṣṇa movement; it is very dangerous to the modern way of life. That much is great, advance. They're feeling the pulse. Now when they are meeting, state obstacles. Everywhere we are meeting obstacles. In Singapore. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We went to the airport. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And practically they didn't even want to let us stay in the airport. We had to stay there only for four hours to catch the next flight. They are so much... Prabhupāda: This is our position. Gradually they will show Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. In India also, although India's... They will want to crush down this movement. So this will be up to Him. Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's movement, the same thing. And Kṛṣṇa was attempted to be killed by Kaṁsa class of men and his company, the demons. So it will be there; it is already there. Don't be disappointed, because that is the meaning that it is successful. Kṛṣṇa's favor is there, because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's movement is not different, identical. So as Kṛṣṇa was attempted to be killed, many, many years before He appeared... At eighth child, if the mother produces child yearly, still ten years, eight years before His birth, the mother was to be attempted to be killed. So there may be attempt like that. And Lord Jesus Christ was killed. So they may kill me also. *Siddha*-svarūpa: I don't think that is possible. *Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, I am not so important man. But it is the, this is the way of the law. If we become weak by factioning, then that is not good. We must be strong and... But you do not expect that this movement will be accepted. In India the so-called yogis, Rama Krishna Mission*-they are also being afraid of. There are so many... But if we remain sincere, even we are feeble, new-born, nobody can kill us. That is a fact. Just like Kṛṣṇa when He was three months old, attempt was made by Putanā to kill Him, but the Putanā was killed. A big demon, gigantic, six miles long, and what is killed by a small child playing on the..., sucking breast and sucking life. That is Kṛṣṇa. So the other day I have explained that by guru, he is accepted as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You have typed it? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Go on. Yes, arcye viṣṇau śilā*-dhīr guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Narakī, if anyone thinks arca-vigraha, the Deities as made of stone, made of earth, or made of something material, and guru, the spiritual master, "He is an ordinary man"-these are forbidden. So why guru is to be considered sākṣād dharitvena samasta-śāstrair **, exactly (like) the Supreme Personality of Godhead? That reason is given there. That reason is that he is giving the Kṛṣṇa knowledge; *therefore he is as good as Kṛṣṇa. Even though his family members or his friend thinking, "Oh, he has now become guru," still he should be considered the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That reason also given there, that even Kṛṣṇa was taken as ordinary man, but does it mean that He has become ordinary? Similarly any..., our movement, it may appear just like other movement, but because the movement is giving Kṛṣṇa, that means it is as good as Kṛṣṇa. This is the example. Ajñāya haña (follow the order). It may appear to others... And there are so many movements, and the hippies have taken another say(?), but it is not that. It is actually Kṛṣṇa. So long it adheres to the principle, "I'll enjoy, I'll be unaccepted(?)." Otherwise it is ordinary movement. This same man, he's guru, so long he gives the real knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. And the same man, he's ordinary man, as soon as he cannot give. Same thing, just like a stone doll, when it is worshiped according to the regulative principles*-Kṛṣṇa. And the same doll, kept in the sculptor's showroom, it is stone. So if we keep our movement pure, then you are as strong as Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you deviate from it, immediately, ordinary. This is the secret. Now it is up to us, how to keep it pure. Then no enemy can kill us. Nobody can kill you. That purity is wanted, then it will... So what is there difficulty? Their purity to kill him(?). Follow the rules and regulations, worship the Deity, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, as you have given, then you will remain as strong as Kṛṣṇa. And if we manufacture some idea also, that is no good. Kṛṣṇa cannot be manufactured; Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa. You cannot manufacture another form competitor of Kṛṣṇa. That is no good. Then failure. Just like the, your one competitor came to, even in the lifetime of Kṛṣṇa, Pauṇḍraka. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: With artificial four hands. You know that? (laughs) That is no (indistinct). This movement is actually the real movement to raise the human society. And if we create factions, then the movement will be less strong and will not act very (indistinct). (pause) Australian dollar question is solved with you? And this check can be deposited. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think it will turn out OK. Prabhupāda: But this dealing of the bank is very... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not good. I know. I complained to the bank manager also. Prabhupāda: So this is right. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They said their hands were tied because the specimen signature on the check... Prabhupāda: They give me writing check. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Why you are talking? Give me writing, that this is not bona fide. Then we take this step, "Your check nonpayment: we will have to take steps." "We wanted this money; we have deposited the money there, and you are not paying. What is this?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We are being inconvenienced by... Prabhupāda: "So now you have to pay the balance. We did not carry the money, took a check, and immediately pay, now you have detained it. So you give me in writing why you are not paying. Then we shall take steps. We should not be punished." Sometimes they take advantage, "Oh, he is servant(?) class, he must be fool number one." (chuckles) They think it. [break] ...no loss or commission. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not on the check. Prabhupāda: Check, there is no question. They can deposit immediately in our account. It is cashier's check; it has to be cashed immediately. So did you ask about the dollars, despatching to India? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They said they would... Prabhupāda: No, no difficult, but what is rate? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The rate, ah, 11.34 American cents equals one rupee. Prabhupāda: 11.34. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I haven't converted into how many... I can do that. Prabhupāda: 11.34, that is good rate. So I wish that... We should combine the work very vigorously when this (indistinct). They are just like women, equal in preaching (indistinct). You keep some women together, and they fight. The children together, they will fight. Dogs together, they will fight. Sane man, why they will fight? Where is the cause of fight? Then you are (indistinct) to become woman. Worse. This material world is such that even you keep some utensil together, when dealing, tung, tung, tung, tung, tung, what to speak of individuals souls. But our cause is the common, how to push on. That soberness must be there. I can give you points, instructions, you will have to put it into shape; otherwise how it will go on? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can understand that Your Divine Grace does not want factions. Prabhupāda: That will better the movement. *Guru*-kṛpā: Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it just seems there is a... The (indistinct) is that there seems to be a difference in the way Kṛṣṇa consciousness is being... Prabhupāda: Why different? *Guru*-kṛpā: Well, there's only one way... Prabhupāda: So now why there should be different? The formula is there. Why there should be difference? *Guru*-kṛpā: Then there is someone who's not doing it properly according to the... Prabhupāda: There is (indistinct), that should be settled up. Suppose you are not doing properly, I can say, "This is this," do, show you how to do it other way. [break] Where is Govinda dāsī? Where is the Deity information? She is manufacturing some (indistinct). *Guru*-kṛpā: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] In India, Punjab National give us 8.84. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (aside:) That's all right. Just put over (here). (indistinct) [break] That I want. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That we should work together. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this (indistinct)? Hari-śauri: There's no problem with... [break] ...as far as distributing Kṛṣṇa consciousness like that, but the thing is they simply don't want to cooperate with the ISKCON movement. Prabhupāda: But why? Hari-śauri: That no one knows. They simply just don't want to mix. Prabhupāda: That we can settle up by sitting together. Why there should be difference? Hari-śauri: Just like in New Zealand, originally they split from ISKCON, and now gradually you are bringing them back to the same standard again, like now you're encouraging them to build a temple and install Deities. That means they have to come up to the required brahminical standard again. So why was there any need to go away in the first place? But still they won't cooperate. Now they'll have to do it their own way. This is..., that's their problem. Prabhupāda: One thousand. No, don't tear. It is written there, "One thousand." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. There's fifties and twenties. There's one fifty note, one hundred notes, twenty notes... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Usually, when they write like this, they're the same denomination. Prabhupāda: Anyway, you can count, yes. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: There are a lot of devotees here who follow the principles but cannot completely... [break] ...shaved up, and they still wear karmī clothes pretty much, but they're clean, they're devotees, and in this way they're attracting many of the local people, because they're able to relate to them. Prabhupāda: So that... *Siddha*-svarūpa: They're not lowering your standard. Prabhupāda: No, naturally, but when they are initiated they must shave. They must keep to the standard. If one becomes initiated and he still keeps the hippie form, that does not look nice. Do you think that is all right? No, that is not good. So long they are coming as outsider, joining kīrtana, they may have their own dress, it doesn't matter. They are coming to kīrtana, that must be (indistinct). But when they are to be initiated, they must follow the rules and regulations given by the spiritual master. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So... Prabhupāda: Otherwise they should not be initiated. It is simple thing. Let them go on chanting, taking prasādam; we have no (indistinct). But when they are to be initiated, they must follow. This is the clear (indistinct). If you don't want to disturb them, let them come, chant, dance, take prasādam We have no objection. But don't recommend them for initiation unless he agrees to the rules and regulations given by the spiritual master. Where is the wrong? Where is the difficulty? You can talk with him like that. *Siddha*-svarūpa: I think they only feel that because... Prabhupāda: No feeling, if you..., when you are surrendering to the spiritual... Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. Find out this verse. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā. Hari-śauri: "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Enquire from him submissively..." Prabhupāda: Mm? Where are they? Mm. *Hari-śauri: "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Enquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self*-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Prabhupāda: You have to submit. You cannot remain independent. That is the first condition. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ, śiṣya. Śiṣya means voluntarily accepting the rules offered by the spiritual master. That is śiṣya: "Ah, yes, I agree to abide by your order." Then he becomes śiṣya. Otherwise where is the question... "I am thinking like this, I am thinking..." So long you are thinking otherwise, you don't try to become a śiṣya. You remain outside and you are welcome: chant, dance, take prasādam, and remain independent. There is no objection. But when you become śiṣya, then you cannot remain independent. These things convince him. Then you don't become śiṣya. Remain as friend, there is no harm. Just like so many people, they come. So if these things (indistinct). One thousand twenty, checks (indistinct). This way. What is the wrong there? Hari-śauri: So then part of initiation means that you're prepared to do something more than simply chant and eat prasādam? Prabhupāda: Initiation means to follow instructions of the spiritual master. That is the first (indistinct) And if there is still hesitation to surrender to the rules and regulations, then all other (indistinct). *Siddha*-svarūpa: I think it is pretty clear, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's just for clarification, that they're working, they have a store on..., a very nice store, they're distributing foodstuffs to all the other stores on the island, and they're working a lot within the society with the karmīs, I guess. So their thinking is that "If we shave our heads and wear robes, like that, then they'll look at us... Prabhupāda: That is not... Because imitating. Officially don't chant. Who is prohibiting to chant? You can chant, you can dance, you can take prasādam. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can they actually say that "His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is my spiritual master" if they haven't accepted all of the instructions? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can one actually say that my spiritual master is such*-and-such person if I am not following all of the... Prabhupāda: What is the use of following (indistinct). We have got that simple thing, you can follow. What is the use? False propaganda. Because you think that we could not accept... (indistinct) ...we are trying to follow the (indistinct). Hari-śauri: One of the differences that first sprung up between the two groups was that one group was going out when you were saying "Go out and distribute books profusely," so they were going and distributing. And they had various means of doing it. Some were not so good, but still the books were going out. Then the group that split away, they were saying, "Ah, you're disturbing the public by these methods of book distribution. We don't want..." This is what happened in Australia, the one temple in Brisbane. They became very much against the saṅkīrtana methods, and as a result they gave up the saṅkīrtana program altogether and then went to live on farms like this, and they left the temple and the temple was finished. So like this, they were saying that "We're still following Prabhupāda's instructions, but we..." But they were saying that the devotees who were distributing the books, they were not following instructions. Like that. Prabhupāda: His Divine Grace has said that "You distribute book," and why do you say that? Hari-śauri: Well, their idea was that because sometimes the public is becoming disturbed by the book distribution, then therefore it's not being done correctly. So it should be stopped. Prabhupāda: Public may disturb, but we are following our own course of action. It is not obligatory. We are requesting you, "Take this book." That is not obligatory. "If you like, you can take. If you don't like, don't take." *Siddha*-svarūpa: I think that... Hari-śauri: So what their idea was that we shall build some public relations, like you said with this store. They prefer to try to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness by public relations, give good impression, and then people will come. Prabhupāda: Then you are dictated by the public, not by the dictation of your spiritual master. Spiritual master has ordered to distribute books; *you shall do that. That is obedience. Now the public may take or not take, that is public's option. But my duty is-because spiritual master has said*-I must try my best. Spiritual master has not said that "You must sell so many books daily, otherwise I will reject you." He has not said that. So everyone may try his best, that's all. The public may take or not take, it doesn't matter. And if you are, want to please the public, public says that "You dance naked, I will be very happy with you, I'll give you (indistinct)." So I'll have to do that. Then what is the use of making a spiritual master? Public, they have got their whims, how to become pleased. So we are to follow all these things? We have to follow our instruction of the spiritual master. That is... (indistinct) Why to manufacture "The public will be pleased like this"? Public may or may not give you, what you can do? Hari-śauri: Our success is in the spiritual master's pleasure, not the public's pleasure. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is bhakti. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]? "You haven't got to please so many religious instructions. You simply please Me." That is Kṛṣṇa's... *Siddha*-svarūpa: I don't think the devotees who factioned out were against book distribution. I think that a little bit was that some of the devotees were using very, very forceful tactics and trying to give people books and take their money, and people were becoming very offended... Prabhupāda: That is not (indistinct). *Siddha*-svarūpa: That is not what you want. Hari-śauri: That's all right, but don't give up the book distribution. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Hari-śauri: This is what happened. The temples fell down, the devotees went away. The ones who were distributing the books went on and distributed more books, became more expert, so that the public were not so much disturbed, and still they're distributing books. But these people who factioned off are not distributing books even now, two or three years later. So it was simply actually a question of faultfinding more than earnest desire to please the spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Discuss. Devotee: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Room Conversation-*-May 4, 1976, Honolulu Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...come Sunday easily. Charge them.... You know like in Los Angeles, we used to charge a dollar a... Prabhupāda: The loan will be clear very soon. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. They have a.... They are very expert at financing now, these, the men who are in charge now. They're claiming that within two or three months all of the debt will be completely cleared. They have a plan, very easy. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) He is the right person. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And the restaurant is very successful. Also they have not advertised that, but every day about fifty people come for the lunch, and at least another seventy, eighty people come in the evening for dinner. For a full meal each person pays an average about $2.50. Prabhupāda: That's cheap. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All you can eat for two dollars... Prabhupāda: And for public it is very cheap. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very inexpensive. And if they advertise it, they won't be able to handle all the people who come. It's such a central location. Prabhupāda: It will be automatically advertised. When people will say, "Oh, there is a nice ISKCON restaurant, and it is so cheap and so nice," people will come. Just like in our Vṛndāvana temple, we don't advertise. Of course, that's.... People are coming by thousands. I thought that so long distance from the city, nobody will come. But Balarāma is so powerful, He's bringing: "Come out here." (laughter) Otherwise, I was.... What is that? Plowing? Yamunā was threatened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Balarāma. Prabhupāda: And the whole Kuru dynasty was threatened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good class of people are coming to the restaurant, businessmen, like that. Prabhupāda: And there is book display? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, there's a book display. Prabhupāda: They are purchasing book also? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They give them a Back to Godhead, complimentary copy... Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...with the meal. And then they also purchase books. The buses are going on nicely. All the buses are out. Two more buses are being made now. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are adding two more. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Well, we had almost finished two. They'll be added in June, so that will make eight, a total of eight. And they're having a normal program going on nicely. And Madhudviṣa Mahārāja also went to visit the other temples. He said in Boston they've gotten.... I think they've already gotten it, right? That restaurant? Ambarīṣa Prabhu has gotten the most wonderful restaurant there, just around the corner from the temple. So it will be very, very high class restaurant with waiters, and... Prabhupāda: Now, this New York restaurant being organized, other restaurant will follow. *Guru*-kṛpā: This restaurant down here, I just was there. Gaura-govinda, he's the one who decorated it. First class. People really like it. Prabhupāda: From the very beginning I was asking to open restaurant and farm. Produce ghee in the farm and send to the restaurant, and make nice samosā, kachori preparation, and there will be no scarcity of money. And if you organize in this way, your whole country will be transferred into Kṛṣṇa conscious country. Whole country. So, what about your China program? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we went to New York to meet with Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja's father, and he was very helpful. We approached him in a frank way, and he immediately got the help of his office. He's the president of this Far East American Council. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And not only China, this is for all of Asia. It includes as.... Some of the persons belonging to it are the chairman of Coca*-Cola, the Bankers Trust Company first vice president, all of the big banks, Bank of America senior vice president, First National City Bank vice president, all of these men. Prabhupāda: So you can contract with all big, big men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And he's the president of the council. Prabhupāda: His father? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then he is very influential man. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very. So he immediately got... Prabhupāda: So you should be like father like son. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has the same name. It's just "Junior" at the end, so they know him. Prabhupāda: No, intelligence also. Father's intelligence he must inherit. There is an Indian proverb, bāpakā beṭā sepāikā ghoḍā, kucha nehi to thoḍā thoḍā (indistinct), mean "The father's son and the soldier's horse, they acquire the quality, if not all, some, must." If one is good soldier, his horse is also trained up. There is a history in India. The horse has played heroic. The Queen of Jhansi's horse and this, our, what is called, Shivaji's horse, they have played unique part in the history. Sepāikā ghoḍā. It is animal, but because it is the horse of a famous hero, it has played. Similarly, the son of father must be as good as father. If not, to some extent. Yes. So you are the.... Your father is the leader of so many big, big businessmen. You also become leader. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: For Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hm? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: For Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. And you have got the intelligence. I have seen. I have studied you. Now you combine. Both of you, you are intelligent. You turn the whole America Kṛṣṇa conscious. Bas. Then success all over the world. America is the leader of the nations. Now, if the America becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then our movement is perfectly successful. And you have got the potency in America. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These men are all in Asia, though. His father's biggest concern.... See, his father.... The company is divided into two: the American branch of Seagrams, and the overseas, which incorporates the whole world outside of America. His father is the president of overseas. So his father has all connections with all of the embassies overseas, all of the big corporations overseas. *Prabhupāda: So all these big, big men, let them have one set of books and study. It is not any expenditure for them, but if at their leisure hour they read some of the line*-they are all intelligent men-they'll get ideas, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So through the influence of father, just try to introduce our books to these big men. It is not.... They may keep them in library, and at leisure hour, if they simply glance over the line, oh, it will be great success. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And their sons will also read it. Prabhupāda: Their sons also will read. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Already my father has noticed in his travels that some of his friends, their sons have joined our movement now too. Prabhupāda: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ, lokas tad anuvartate [Bg. 3.21]. If these big men of the world, they take it, "Oh, yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine," then naturally it will be followed by the others. So here is a good opportunity to contact big men of the world. So utilize it properly. You.... Both of you are intelligent. Very cautiously deal with them. They will understand that "Oh, these people are very honest men of character and high knowledge and God conscious." That will make our movement success. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His father has been giving us.... Of course, it was.... We have been approaching him through the aspect of doing business in China. His father is encouraging us in the sense that he is seeing Dhṛṣṭadyumna.... Like whenever we visit him, we come in our suits, and his father is seeing that.... He is encouraging him also because he's taking some, what he calls a very, what would you say, a responsible position, attempting to do some business. So he's been giving us letters on his company's letterhead. Just like this is a letter to the director of the Department of Commerce of the United States. We've seen a number of people. We've been visiting different directors. First thing we did when we went back is after meeting him, we got many books on China. Some of the examples are, just like this.... We read about twenty*-five books. We've studied up very thoroughly and researched everything about China. Here is a book, The Religious Policy and Practice in Communist China. It describes everything about religion there. So we thoroughly read this book. Then there's other books, books on education, we read books on history... Prabhupāda: Chinese people, they are trying to raise their standard of civilization. Do they? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, many.... Their philosophy is called dialectic materialism. They want to advance materially and they.... We have prepared one report of an interview with the president of a committee on United States and China relations. He's one of the leading experts in China. So after researching and studying all the educational, the libraries, all the different functions in China, we went and spoke with this gentleman. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: First we got a lot of information ourselves, so we'd be knowledgeable. We read for one month. We got.... We wrote away to all the councils, we got hundreds of books like this, special reports about China, we read them, and then we went to meet this man, because he is the most knowledgeable expert person on China in the United States. And we made up a report which we wanted to read to you, because it gives everything very nicely. It tells what China is doing now, and what our program can be for book distribution. Prabhupāda: No, what is their aim? After studying all these books, what do you think? What is the aim of China? What is the objective they are making progress towards? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their aim is that everyone should be materially comfortable. There should be no... Prabhupāda: In that case, they should, if they have got sense.... Just like in the whole world, these American people are materially comfortable. But why they are producing hippies now? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They see this as a fault of the system, capitalism. They say that capitalism means the enjoyment of the few at the... Prabhupāda: Materialism means capitalism. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, they want communistic materialism. In other words, by creating, forming communes, everyone will get equal portion of food and bedding and clothing and medicine. Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact. A man's tendency is that everyone wants to get more. So how they will check it? This is already proved in Russia. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They condemn Russia. They say Russia is a failure. Prabhupāda: And similarly, they will have to condemn. If they follow the wrong path, they will have the wrong result. This is not... Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their leader, Mao Tse Tung, he was very austere, and he is very moral, and he has these purges where he takes the men who he sees are not..., or who are trying to use their position for their own power, and he takes it away from them. They are constantly going through these purges of their system to insure that no one enjoys more than others, at the expense of others. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Artificial, though. Prabhupāda: So that is artificial way of.... Unless one is prepared to.... Just like why they are inducing persons to sacrifice their accumulated wealth for the state? Why? Communistic idea that everyone should be equal. So if somebody has more than others, they want to take it away. Just like in India this policy is now growing. So everyone should give away, but now it is being done by law, by force. But that will not stay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We also agree it's a failure. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is bound to fail. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you voluntarily give, it will be failure. You will try to find out ways how you can take everything.... Just like income tax. The government is trying to take more money from the public, and public is hiding them in black market. This is going on. Nobody is.... Even your Nixon, he also hidden some money from the income tax. Why? He is the head of the government. So one side, he is head of the government, try to take money from the public, but he personally himself, he is hiding. Why this defect? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will say that the system encourages man's greed, whereas their system... Prabhupāda: No, no, system.... If the.... You cannot change the mind. If you have got mind to enjoy more, by force if I try to force you not to enjoy more, give to the state, this is a struggle. This is not perfect process. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that will be corrected by education. Prabhupāda: Education.... That means what is that education? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that the.... They don't.... Of course, we say education means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Education means they must learn to sacrifice everything for the topmost. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say the topmost is the general mass of everyone, the proletariat, all people combined. Prabhupāda: That's all right, general. But you know how to make general mass of people happy. That example we give, that the whole body.... You can make the whole body happy simply by supplying food to the stomach. That is the best way. And if you want to make happy every part of the body, individual, that will never be successful. You must know where to touch. Just like the huge machine is going on by the expert manipulation of the pilot. He is pushing one.... Works. Immediately the plane becomes.... It is.... So you must know where to touch. If.... I am layman, I am put into that, then, instead of putting here, I shall put my here, and then it will go down. "Ohhh." So finished. So this is nature's way, that you supply food to the stomach, and the energy will be distributed every part. You supply water to the root of the tree, it will be supplied everywhere. That you must know. Otherwise, if you.... Just like if you do not know, a expert, not expert, so he's advised, "Give to, the food to the stomach." "And in where?" "No, in the hole of the body." If he does not, which hole, then he will put somewhere, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here. It will never act. Then you must know the science how to make everyone happy. If you do not know that, then your imperfect imagination will never be done, and that has become everywhere. Why there is difference of opinion even both of the communistic countries? Why there is difference of opinion between Russia and China? Because both of you do not know how to make everyone happy. That is the point. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: China has achieved great material strides in the last twenty years. There is no prostitution. They have wiped out flies, no more flies causing disease. There is.... And they look to a very bitter past of exploitation at the hand of foreigners and internal civil war and great suffering and starvation. So when they look back over twenty years they see, "Oh, we have advanced greatly." So they are very satisfied. *Prabhupāda: No, if they actually progressing, they will have to come to that point*-that is natural-where, placing your service, you can serve everyone. That is the right conclusion. But we have got that right conclusion. If you take from us you can make immediately. But if you want to wait by your research work, then you can waste your time. But you have to come to this point. That is a fact. Just like you have to give food to the mouth. If you do not know, out of rascaldom you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment.... There are so many holes. You go on experimenting, and waste your time. But unless you come to this point, that "Food has to be supplied here," your all attempt will be failure. That you have to tell them. And because you cannot supersede nature's way. Nature's way is "The food must go through here." You cannot change it. You are not above nature. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They say that you can become above nature. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That will make them failure. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Oh, yes, they will fail. *Prabhupāda: That will make them failure. Tell them, then this will make them failure. "If you are so foolish that you want to go above nature, then you are fool number one." Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. It is not possible. That is not possible. Then you are following wrong path. If you are imagining like that, that "We have surpassed the laws of nature," then you are fool number one. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In that respect they are like the Americans and Russians. They think that we can overcome the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are just like the Americans and Russians in the same way. They are thinking we can overcome the stringent laws of nature. Prabhupāda: No, that is the foolishness. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So long they will have this impression that they can overcome the laws of nature they will continue to become mūḍha. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, another problem... Prabhupāda: In which way you have surpassed nature? First of all, if you are thinking like that, in which way you have surpassed the nature? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say, "For example, before we began our agricultural development, there was very poor agricultural produce all over the country due to lack of proper water. Now we have laid huge irrigation systems, and there is no more drought." Prabhupāda: Therefore that is nature's way. Nature supplies you water. That is nature's way. That means you are making perfect according to the nature's way. But nature give you water; you produce profusely. But if you want to go above the nature, you produce without water. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) It can't be done. Prabhupāda: Then we shall see that you have surpassed the laws of.... The laws of nature is there must be water. Nature is supplying. And you are trying to imitate. But if you say that "We can overpass the nature's law," then you produce without water. Then you'll be able. Then we shall see that you have gone above.... This, you are following the nature's. That is not surpassed. That is following little properly. Now you have arranged for water. That's very good. But if nature pours water, then you save so much labor. Do you know that, how nature will supply water profusely? You haven't got to make artificial arrangement for water. Do you know that? Ask them. We know that. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Formerly their society was very much like the Vedic culture. There was the emperor and the... Prabhupāda: Yes, it was.... The Chinese people were coming, taking knowledge from.... Everyone was coming. So now argument that "If you are.... You are following the nature's way. Nature supply water. That is a fact. Here is cloud. Nature will supply. Now, if you want to surpass nature, then you produce in the factory, without water, food grains. Then we shall understand that you can surpass. As you are producing instruments and so many other motorcars and this, that, so many, in the factory, that's all right. In the factory you produce food grains without water. Then you have surpassed nature." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can't do that. Prabhupāda: Then where is the question of surpassing nature? Make them fool in every point, these rascals, by argument. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Unfortunately, they do not teach any philosophy anymore. They have done away with all... Prabhupāda: This is not philosophy. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. This is science. Prabhupāda: This philosophy, it is science. Without water you cannot produce. This is science. This is not imagination. So if you want to surpass nature, then you do practically. Why should you try to bring canal water or well water? Don't bring. You cannot surpass the laws of nature. That has to be accepted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their main point is that they want to manipulate expertly the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: That means let them waste their time. Therefore it requires many births to understand this law. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're going away from this kind of understanding. They had a heritage of philosophical understanding, correct philosophical.... They were very.... For instance, their whole system during the time of Confucius.... Up until two or three hundred years ago their system was they had a monarchy, a king, an emperor, and the emperor was believed to be the representative of God. Prabhupāda: That is good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And it was Vedic. They had a brāhmaṇa community. They called them scholars who were advising. And they had administrators, and they had workers. Now the current Communists, they are against that system. They say this system was the worst system of all because it made some big and some small. Because naturally it became... Prabhupāda: But you are doing the same thing. Otherwise why you are reforming? Who is reforming unless the one class is very intelligent? The same situation. You.... Your, what is that rascal's name? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Mao Tse Tung. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mao. Mao. Prabhupāda: So he is supposed to be intelligent. He is supposed to be intelligent. So the two classes already there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he says everyone can be equally intelligent. Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but these classes must remain, the teacher class and the student class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's what they do. They take the teachers.... This is one of their program. Actually we have written a report which explains. They take the teachers, and they send the teachers out into the factory and into the farms for years. Prabhupāda: So anywhere you send, the student and teacher class is there. You change the name, you change the process, it doesn't matter, but the student class and teacher class will always remain. That is your foolishness. You are simply changing different names. But originally, as planned by nature, that is always there. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They say let the factory worker teach the teacher. Prabhupāda: Anyway, teacher class, rascal, it is teacher class. You make a teacher class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say everyone should be teachers. Prabhupāda: That "should be" means not. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they are making everyone teachers. Prabhupāda: And this "making" means not. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They are trying to make. Prabhupāda: That is all right. The classes, two classes, are there. You cannot change that. "Trying," "making," means two. Hari-śauri: It's artificial. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like they let the students teach the teachers. Prabhupāda: That's right. So the teachers.... Sometimes you become teacher; sometimes I become teacher. What is this? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're trying to create a society where there are no superior*-inferior. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Classless society. Prabhupāda: They are taking themselves the superior position to make it one. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Yes. That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like some of the rascal swamis come here that "There is no teacher of.... No require teacher, no need of books." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then why do we need them? Prabhupāda: And these rascals are writing books, that "There is no need of book." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That happened. One swami said, "Now you.... Meditation means don't think of anything." So then one of our men at the meeting raised his hand and said, "Then why do we need you?" So he got very angry. He said, "If the mind should do nothing, what do we need you for?" Prabhupāda: So what was his reply? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He told his men to usher our man out. His men got very agitated because there was no reply. He couldn't give a reply, so they asked our man to leave for disturbing the sleeping of the public. Prabhupāda: Anyway, the whole world is rascal. They will manufacture and spoil time, their own time and others' time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, we did a report telling.... We wanted to read this to you. It gives you an idea of what are the possibilities of spreading your books or Kṛṣṇa consciousness in China. We made up a report for you. Do you want to hear it? Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, you want to read it, Dhṛṣṭadyumna? 'Cause it is actually very useful, if not now, in the future, because this report is based on a lot of research. Read. [break] Prabhupāda: ...that if they are rascals, then don't try. You see? Reject them. But there is good potency in your country. You do peacefully here. If they are rascals, means stubborn rascals... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You cannot imagine how rascal they are. That's why we wrote this report. Prabhupāda: Then don't try. Don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a.... The Christians, they have a boat two hundred miles off the China coast, and they put little Bibles in cellophane bags and let the Bibles float into China. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Balloons. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Balloons. That's how hard it is to preach there. Prabhupāda: That is also nonsense. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's nonsense, but the point is how difficult it is. We have... *Prabhupāda: Then don't try. Don't waste time. Don't try. Better try in your country. You have got enough field, and they are intelligent and they are favorable. So why should we waste our time? There is no need. If you make your country, America, God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious-they are already*-that will be example to the whole world. These men, rascals' program, will be failure, finished, this, today or tomorrow. They'll never be successful. It is not.... That is not possible. If they have so foolishly declared that "We are going above the laws of nature," they're first-class rascals. Which is impossible. What they have conquered over the nature? These rascals will not die? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they'll still die. Prabhupāda: Then? Then what is this? The rascals will not become old men? So what they have surpassed, laws of nature? What way? Simply making the teachers student and student teacher. Simply wasting time. Better you utilize your father's position, but for introducing our books to these high class men. Just you are trying to introduce books in the university libraries, similarly, you try to introduce these books to the high class. And that is not difficult. These men, they have got enough money. If they spend one thousand dollar for our books, that is nothing for them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of your disciples, Praghoṣa, he's the biggest book distributor, practically. Tripurāri trained him up. He is now starting a program of meeting with these executives and doing just this. He is working in New York, and he's developing a program like this. Prabhupāda: Now in India also they are trying. Yaśomatī.... Yaśodānandana's report is that he approached one head librarian in Andhra Pradesh and... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Karnataka. Prabhupāda: Karnataka. Karnataka province, educated province, Karnataka, South India, Karnataka, very educated. So he has immediately ordered thirty sets of books in different libraries. He has appreciated so much. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The professors in Bombay, some of them are already reviewing Prabhupāda's books very favorably. Prabhupāda: So you just touch the topmost men. But if, somehow or other, if you see some of the topmost men of the China, "You kindly read our books at your leisure." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can't approach those men. Prabhupāda: Then give it up. If it is too difficult, don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not only difficult, it's impossible. Prabhupāda: Then don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Completely impossible. Prabhupāda: Give up this idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It may be possible fifty years from now. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Our descendants will try for that. But let us try where it is favorable. Don't waste time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were really, you know, just looking for any loophole, but there is no loophole. Prabhupāda: No hole. That's all right. We don't care for it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The man we spoke to, when he heard what we wanted to do, he said, "Boys, you're up against the wall." He said, "You're up against the Great Wall." China has a wall called the Great Wall. He said, "You've come up against the Great Wall. You'll never cross it." *Prabhupāda: No, they'll be.... Nature's law is so strong that they are also trying to knock their head in the wall. They will themselves break their head. The laws of nature is the same. If you try to break the walls from this side and if they try to break the walls from that side, both of them will lose their head. So if they are so foolish.... They are foolish. Everywhere such foolish men are there. They are trying to overcome the laws of nature. That is the greatest foolishness. That is the greatest foolishness. Just like government has got police force, military force, and if somebody tries to become, violate the laws of government by defying police force and military force*-that is futile. Is it possible, that "I shall defy the government laws"? No, there is police force. There is military. "I don't care for that." It is foolishness. It is simply foolishness. Similarly, these laws of nature means the force of the Supreme. So if you want to defy, you may waste your time. It is not possible. And practically, Kṛṣṇa says, "Here I have enforced this miserable condition of material life." Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu [Bg. 13.9]. First of all surpass this, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Then talk of surpassing the laws of nature. Can the Communists overcome, stopping old age? No Communist will be old man? Then what way you have surpassed the laws of nature? No Communist will die? Then where is your surpassing laws of nature? Ultimately you are under the grip of laws of nature. So what is the meaning of this foolish talking, that "I am going to surpass the laws of nature"? Show us first of all. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their goal is not so broad. They just want to control the... *Prabhupāda: That means the little children's policy. Children, just like imagining so many things, "I shall do that. I shall do." The potter's imagination. You know that? Potter's imagination? You do not know the story? One potter is selling earthen pots, and he is saying that "Now, these two paisā, it has cost me one paisā. I shall make one paisā profit. Then I can make such profit. I shall invest again. I shall make another profit, another profit. In this way I shall become millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife shall be very obedient. And if (s)he does not become obedient, I shall give him a kick like this." And he, what was.... One pot was there. He kicked that pot and broke. (laughter) It broke. "Oh, again I am poor man." So this is going on, imagination. Imagination.... "I shall become so great that I shall kick Kṛṣṇa's law," and whatever pot he had*-broken. That's all. Rascals, simply rascals. If anyone thinks like that, that "I shall surpass the laws of nature," then he's madman. He's madman. So what is the use of dealing with madmen? And as soon as you challenge them that "Show us that you have surpassed the laws of nature," "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do." That's all. This is their reply. So it is better to avoid such men. But if you peacefully you can introduce, "All right, you will do. You are wonderful men, so kindly if you read some pages of this, it is not very costly. You can keep. At leisure hour you can read," in this way, imploring, then they will be benefited. That much we can do to any rascal. He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya dūrāt caitanya-candra-caraṇe: "Oh, you are so nice. Therefore I am flattering you. I humbly obeisance. Kindly hear one thing. Keep some books. It is not very costly." Bas. This much you can do. And let them become puffed up by their false notions. But if they keep some books, sometimes they will read or their sons will read. That's all. Therefore I am stressing so much on books, that if the puffed-up rascals take some book and sometimes, if they read, he'll be benefited, perfectly benefited. So distribute these books anywhere possible. It doesn't matter where it is. The same process. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya. The books will sell, that "You rascal number one, you set aside whatever learned. Read this." He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya: "You are very learned, but forget what you have learned, all rascaldom. Try to read this book." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate: "A rascal fool is very beautifully dressed, very nice sitting. But his rascaldom will be disclosed as soon as he will speak." So these rascals, as soon as they speak, "We shall surpass the laws of nature," then we can understand what kind of rascals. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ. By their, these words we can take, "Oh, rascaldom," at once. "I shall break the wall. I shall push the mountain with my head." It is like that. If somebody is thinking that "I shall push the Himalayan mountains by knocking with my head," then we can understand. So where it is? A rascal, the innocent, he is also rascal. But innocent is eager to become intelligent, so there we shall deal. And the stubborn atheists, they are dviṣat. They cannot be corrected immediately, unless they become ruined. [break] ...their standard of life. Try for that. Concentrate in your country. There is no need of going.... I was written, asking you that, that "If it is very hard job, don't try for that, useless waste of time." Incorrigible. So what is the use of going to a person...? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We also researched a little bit about Russia. After we saw how it looked here-it was impossible*-we were looking towards Russia. So we did some research on Russia also. There it's a little bit more open, but it's also, in terms of any kind of broad program, it is practically impossible. For example, distribution of books in Russia, there's only one company that buys the books. There's only one import... Prabhupāda: No, let him. One? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. (end) *Room Conversation-*-May 5, 1976, Honolulu Bhūrijana: Would you like me to do anything? What would you like me to do? I know I don't want to be independent. *Prabhupāda: Why you are inclined to follow Siddha*-svarūpa, your wife and you. What is your special attraction? Bhūrijana: (indistinct) ...we couldn't always be corresponding with you. I needed some personal instruction. Prabhupāda: But first of all (indistinct) you what is the special attraction? Your wife said that their instruction is very clear. So what is the distinction between clear and ambiguous. What do you find ambiguous, what do you find clear? What is that? Bhūrijana: I think the part I found clear, the more introspective points about humility, and changing one's desires... Prabhupāda: Humility means not to follow the instruction of guru? That is not... Bhūrijana: No, that is not humility. Prabhupāda: I'm asking you what is the special attraction? You say... Your wife says it is very clear. What is that clear and ambiguous? Bhūrijana: You mean what is ambiguous and... (indistinct) what is ambiguous or what... Prabhupāda: No. You say that is very clear what others are telling you. Now what is that ambiguous, what is that clear? Bhūrijana: The clearness may be a deeper understanding to want to be humble. A deeper understanding to want to... *Prabhupāda: Humble, but if you do not follow your spiritual master's instruction, you follow others, then where is the humbleness? You say that... Your wife says that what Siddha*-svarūpa says it is very clear and and others are not so clear. Is it not? What is that clear what is not clear? Bhūrijana: He says chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So who says that you don't chant? Bhūrijana: Maybe the emphasis wasn't so much on the chanting even though everyone says harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21], everyone just chants their sixteen rounds a day, chants a half hour ārati in the evening and half hour ārati in the morning. Prabhupāda: So what do you want more? What is your program? 24 hours? Bhūrijana: I like more kīrtana than that. Prabhupāda: So you don't like to sell books. Bhūrijana: No, I think I like very much. I mean I think I would like to. Prabhupāda: So what is difference? Bhūrijana: Between selling books and kīrtana? Prabhupāda: No no. Between others and you. Where is the difference? When you point out that this is the point, we differ. What is that point? Bhūrijana: Well maybe the point about more kīrtana or less kīrtana. Prabhupāda: So if you chant more, they're objecting? Bhūrijana: No. Prabhupāda: Then where is the difference? Has anyone objected (if you) chant more? Bhūrijana: No. Prabhupāda: Then where is the objection? What is the point of difference? Bhūrijana: I think there's no point of difference. Prabhupāda: Then why do you say we find these instructions more clear? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You say that there's no point of difference, but then you say that his instruction is more clear. There's some contradiction. Bhūrijana: It's just the emphasis that was given to hari... to chanting. For myself, I know I was off track and I know that in my heart I built up an enmity toward your disciples and thinking that they..., that by their distributing books they were making people angry at Kṛṣṇa and... Prabhupāda: That is real point. That is real point. Bhūrijana: That's what I felt. See, when I was in Hong Kong, people I would meet, they used to yell... They'd yell at me, "What have you done to Kṛṣṇa?" Some Indians used to say that. People we'd meet, they'd tell us they see the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees and they hate Kṛṣṇa. I remember one specific time when I was speaking to one businessman who was helping us and... Prabhupāda: He said that "We hate Kṛṣṇa"? Bhūrijana: No no. He said that, "Your members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're making people in Australia hate Kṛṣṇa. They make people inimical." Making people inimical to Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They feel threatened simply that we're preaching something that will discourage their sinful way of life. Simply they feel threatened. Not they're hating. Their argument is that because of our strong emphasis on preaching and book distrubtion, they say therefore that the mass of people they have a bad impression of Kṛṣṇa. Bhūrijana: And also because... Prabhupāda: Because we are selling books. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because we're selling books. Bhūrijana: Not so much the selling books. Maybe because of the emphasis on taking..., how much money can be taken. Like if someone says on the street, "Please give me a donation." So they give him a donation. "No, you must give more," and more and more. So the people think that the devotees are only interested in getting money and they get a bad impression that ISKCON is a money making movement. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We're selling one half a million large size books each year. Harisauri: The thing is that the materialists will always find that. They see the devotees and we say that we renounce everything, but they don't understand that renunciation means to take everything and give it to Kṛṣṇa. So when... Just like that time there was such a great commotion when we hired that Rolls Royce to take Your Divine Grace from the airport to the temple. So in the papers they didn't put anything that you said. They simply put "His Divine Grace is arriving in a Rolls Royce." So this is the general attitude of the common mass of people. Prabhupāda: That is envious. So if they sell books, so that is making Kṛṣṇa unpopular? Bhūrijana: But one must learn to be a good book salesman I think. Prabhupāda: But selling book, Kṛṣṇa, does it mean that the booksellers are creating unpopular opinion? Does it mean? Bhūrijana: Automatically, no. Prabhupāda: When you say that they're making enemies because they're pushing this, what is wrong there? Actually, I can so far understand that you do not like to sell books, or you cannot sell books. Bhūrijana: Actually I've never really tried. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhūrijana: I've never really attempted very much. Prabhupāda: Those who are selling books you think of them they're not very advanced. Bhūrijana: I don't think they can do it for very long. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhūrijana: I don't think that they can continue for a very long time if they are not advanced. Prabhupāda: But actually they're doing. So why do you say they cannot continue long? *Hari*-sauri: No, he's saying that if they weren't..., that they must be advanced actually if you look at it in the proper perspective. The ones that are continually distributing, they, they must be advanced. Otherwise one could not do it for a very long time. Bhūrijana: When people... Often used to make me angry when people would collect money for..., using lying terms and say that they're collecting money for the welfare center here, or to feed the children here, or to bus the children there, and they'd collect money like that but it wasn't very straight forward. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda has many times given the instruction to the devotees that they should try as much as possible to distribute the books on their own merit. [break] ...wanting this knowledge. Bhūrijana: But they... [break] ...so much (indistinct) is collecting, not distributing books. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, but the point is that Prabhupāda's instruction is there. Bhūrijana: But all the devotees want to hear is Prabhupāda also said "by hook or by crook." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes it may be required to interest someone in a book, that they may find out their interest. Just like people are interested in philanthropic activity. Prabhupāda: Just like our... What is his name? *Hari*-sauri: Tripurāri? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Some lady inquired, "Is there any instruction about the power shortage?" "Oh, yes." (laughs) So she purchased, and the next day she said, "There is nothing about power." So suppose Tripurāri has sold one book. The lady inquired, "Is there any basic instruction about power shortage?" And he said, "Yes." So you think it is wrong. That is your version. Bhūrijana: I think a simple lie like that is not bad. Prabhupāda: But a devotee's view is that whatever may be her inquiry, if she purchases one book, she'll be benefited. This is the point. But you, as big moralist, you, (laughs) you think that he has cheated. He has not cheated. He has benefited her. Somehow or other he has given a book to her. Someday she'll read and she'll benefit. But you people, you think that why we should sell like that, that, "Yes, there is some solution of power shortage." Actually there is, but you think that he has lied. Just like there are sometimes the father's child is suffering from fever. So the father wants that the child may take the medicine, and promises, "You take the medicine. I'll give you this cake." The purpose is not to give the cake actually. The purpose is the child may take the medicine. That is the purpose. But when the father promises that "If you take the medicine I'll give you the cake." But cake is dangerous for the child who is suffering from fever, but still the father allures him. "If you take the medicine and I'll give you cake." So is the father wrong or right? Bhūrijana: No. Prabhupāda: Similarly, similarly, if somehow or other one can sell one book to a person it is good for him. Don't take how he is selling, but he's giving the book to that person and he's paying something and that is good. But big moralist, they cannot understand. They'll see, "Why the father has spoken lie to his son. He's not a good father." They'll mistake. Father is always friend. Father cannot be enemy. But for the benefit of the rascal child sometimes he has to say like that. That "If you take the medicine I'll give you cake." So those who are mundane moralist, they cannot understand this thing, because they are mundane platform. The another example is that Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. He was asked by Kṛṣṇa that "You speak lie to Dronācārya that 'Your son is dead.' " Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused. For this he had to see hell. He was more moralist than Kṛṣṇa. For this moral activity he had to visit hell. This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is why we are pushing so much this sales of books. Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles. Arjuna. Arjuna was arguing with Kṛṣṇa that this killing of my relatives, it is horrible, abominable. Better I beg and maintain myself than I kill my relatives and become a king. Did he not say? That is ordinary man's argument. But as Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused to speak lie, [break] Arjuna in spite of his conviction that it is sinful to kill my relatives, he still agreed to kill. Why? Bhūrijana: That is supreme moral, Kṛṣṇa's desire. Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa desires, if one dies, he's above all this material. But it should not be manufactured. The thing is that our spiritual master wants to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he has repeatedly stressed to distribute books, we shall distribute books by any means, that is good. That is good. And if you become moralist that, "Oh, they're taking this means, that means for selling of book, so I'm big moralist. I'm bigger than him." Bhūrijana: I don't think there is so much enmity because of the books themselves. Prabhupāda: No, I think that.. I do not know what they are doing, but I have information that they're not selling books. Bhūrijana: Some I think. I think some. Prabhupāda: But not... Bhūrijana: Comparable amount. Prabhupāda: Yes. Others who were transgressing the moral principle, they were selling more books. And those who are big moralists, they could not. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're also distributing one pamphlet printed by Siddha*-svarūpānanda. Then if they like they can buy one of Prabhupāda's books. Prabhupāda's book comes second. Prabhupāda: Sometimes I've heard so many things. Bhūrijana: But they give those away for free. I mean just in the sense that someone maybe doesn't want to purchase anything. So they give him something for free about Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: First they do that. Bhūrijana: Only because it's free. Not that a... As far as I know. Prabhupāda: They get knowledge free, then why they should purchase? If you give them the opportunity that we take material, knowledge free then why they will purchase? Bhūrijana: If we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious without following the rules and regulations, why follow the rules and regulations? That's what I was thinking a while ago. Prabhupāda: They should follow what their spiritual master says. Book selling, there is no question of moral and immoral. They must sell. Just like in fighting. Where there is fight, the soldiers, to gain victory, there is no question of moral and immoral. He must. Bhūrijana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think the thing I understand least, is that if they are not doing what you want... I mean... I'm sitting before you now and you're telling me and I'm listening, and you are my spiritual master. I must accept. Prabhupāda: We want that book selling must be increased as much as possible. This we want. The same thing. Let the child take medicine. Never mind the father is speaking lies. That is... Because as soon as he takes the medicine he'll be benefited. End justifies the means. End is that everyone should have a Kṛṣṇa literature. Doesn't matter what is the means. Because he has taken one Kṛṣṇa literature, that justifies everything. This is the principle. Bhūrijana: How about just collecting without giving any literature? Just collecting. Three months ago I saw it in Australia, with a lying line too. Not telling the truth. And that wasn't very long ago. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) *Hari*-sauri: Sometimes the devotees are just distributing incense. Bhūrijana: Nothing. *Hari*-sauri: They collect and distribute incense. Sometimes they don't distribute books. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maybe they have to pay off a loan on the temple. All the devotees are well aware that Prabhupāda's books have first priority. Everyone knows it. The consciousness is very (indistinct) It's not a consciousness of giving. *Hari*-sauri: Prabhupāda's point is that if you see fault with the method of implementing the spiritual master's instructions, you'll fail to follow the instructions. Prabhupāda: No the point is not that they have not done any wrong. Don't think like that. But my point, that is, my instruction is sell books. Bhūrijana: I understand. In other words if you think they're doing it wrong, you do it better. If you see the wrong thing... But do it. Make sure you do it, but do it without the wrong thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhūrijana: I feel that this is... Prabhupāda: Besides that, if you do not take to Deity worship, then you shall remain unclean. That's a fact. (end) *Room Conversation-*-May 7, 1976, Honolulu Prabhupāda: First business, how to get our books. (indistinct) For Russia export from India will be favorable. So government paper we are printing seven, eight rupees price. Make that addition, all the books. Ask them to take paper from the government, huge quantity, and all these books should be published immediately, 5,000 books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 5,000 copies each. Prabhupāda: Yes, if possible, minimum 1,000. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last time we were speaking, I was mentioning to you that in Russia they are particularly inclined towards an exchange program of books, where we give our books and they will give some useless books. Prabhupāda: (indistinct), why should we do this? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned last time you will throw them away. Prabhupāda: For us there is no readable books in the whole world. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: We cannot waste our time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, of course. But is there any, I mean, of course we would like to... Prabhupāda: But only some of the authorized books, just to take their parts(indistinct) and to refute, otherwise, we haven't got to take lesson from anyone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: This is a fact. All rascal speculators, what value they have got? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing there are many thousands of libraries in Russia and they are agreeable to placing say one of our books of each book in each of the libraries, but they are not willing to purchase all these books, but they are willing to give us some books in exchange, will we make this sacrifice? Because it will represent a loss of money? Prabhupāda: No, if you can arrange for selling those (books) at any cost. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can arrange to sell our books to them at any cost? Prabhupāda: No, no, exchange. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can sell, there is some set resale value. Then we can realize some money. Prabhupāda: Yes, then it is alright. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll have value. There will be some money. We can request them to send some samples of the books that they will return to us. Then we can... Prabhupāda: Find out cost. Some shopkeepers, stores. Some return. If we can get our cost price of the books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should get cost price. Prabhupāda: Not should, but must as far as possible. *Guru*-kṛpā: I've heard that in Russia the people are so eager to read imported literature that any literature appears they immediately buy it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a black market going on in Russia, particularly black market on books. Books are smuggled into the country and sold and they're very dearly read. People are very anxious. Prabhupāda: Yes. They must be because they are keeping in darkness. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: These nasty countries, in the name of giving them material facility, they'll kill them, even they're independent. Such a horrible country. How people can tolerate loss of independence? It is very horrible. I am sitting here 24 hours, this is another thing, but if I understand that I cannot go out, I have to sit down here, oh it is horrible. It is a horrible condition. Simply this impression that I have to keep myself within this room, although I am keeping myself, I am not going, only for walk maybe. But if the impression is that I cannot go out from this room, then my life is lost. This is psychology. So, they are keeping their young men. They are not allowed to go out of the country, in Russia. Similarly in China. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even more so. *Prabhupāda: So what kind of government it is? It is a horrible government. And they are hackney only in literature. These communist country, the people are forced to accept the government regulation. And that is all bad. I have seen in Moscow, generally the people are morose, their face not very happy. They are also Europeans, they want freedom to go here and there (indistinct) and to work. The taxi driver*-first of all there is scarcity of taxi, you can not get taxi... *Guru*-kṛpā: Even in Moscow, big city. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That Professor Kotofsky, I asked him, "Please arrange for a taxi." (indistinct) "Well, Swamiji, this is Moscow." So he came down to the gate-he was very virtuous*-he showed me, "You go this way, actually there was 3 or 4 lane then you find a short lane, then you go this way, this way, then you get to your hotel. He showed me some short cut, personally. They... He could not call a taxi. And somewhere we went, we got a taxi, private taxi, and that man was begging for more than the fare. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the system... Prabhupāda: "Can you not give me little more?" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the system is a failure. Prabhupāda: And then I could understand. And they have got that there is tourist bus, taking here and there, that bus is third class. Even less opulent than in India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many days were you there? Prabhupāda: One week. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Short. You were only in Moscow? *Guru*-kṛpā: That is the rich city. People are fighting to get into that city, they only allow so many people to live there. Prabhupāda: Everything restricted. *Guru*-kṛpā: You cannot just decide to move to Moscow. You cannot do that. You must take permission from the government to live in Moscow. Prabhupāda: Everything..., and we could not get nice food. There was no nice rice, wheat, fruit, flour, nothing. Fruit means the strawberries. I don't remember we could get any other fruit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Perhaps you went at a bad season. Prabhupāda: No, no. Everything is controlled. Whatever government will give you, they have to accept. And all the stores, it is just like, what is called? The old? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Grocery store? Prabhupāda: Antique, antique, antique shop. That means no purchaser. People have no p..., no bank. People have no money, simply bare necessities of life their government supplies. And bus transport, buses standing in one place, best time, and people are running after. Women, men, mostly they walk. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or bicycles. Prabhupāda: Bicycle, I did not... *Guru*-kṛpā: I think they must all wear the same clothes. Prabhupāda: I did not study so much. Yes, there is no gorgeousness. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In China they all wear the same clothes. Whatever you saw in Russia, China is ten times more oppressive. It is much more oppressive. They say that Russia is a complete failure, because they are allowing so much looseness. The Chinese are accusing the Russians of being very loose and very capitalistic inclined. China is very dissatisfied that Russians have given up the principles of Marx and they have taken after the western ways. Preferring one group above another group. Prabhupāda: Because Russia was afraid of another revolution. People were preparing. So much pressure, intolerance, after all they are Europeans, so there was a chance of revolution. Hari-śauri: Especially after Stalin. So many people were killed and sent to prison camps. That was the way that they enforced... Prabhupāda: Stalin is calculated to be greatest criminal in the world. He has killed so many men. All rogues. We were taken through the neighborhood of all aristocratic men who were killed in the revolution. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While reading about China, one of the books I was reading also described Cambodia, Vietnam and Korea. And the recent histories of these countries are so horrible, that the... Mostly in that part of the world now they have become totally anti*-American. They are very, very anti-American because of what the Ameri... The Americans have simply gone there and... *Guru*-kṛpā: Not Korea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: North Koreans don't love Americans. *Guru*-kṛpā: No, not north Koreans, South Koreans. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But now Korea is united. *Guru*-kṛpā: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, I've been reading, they hate the Americans in North Korea. *Guru*-kṛpā: Trivikrama has left Korea now, he went to... He's left. He's in Japan. Prabhupāda: Oh. He could not do anything? *Guru*-kṛpā: I don't know, he has left there. He went for 3 weeks and left. Now he's in Japan. I don't know where. He's doing something. Prabhupāda: If he could not do anything, he can come back to America. What do you think? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that it's good for him to come back to America. He's been away from America for 5 or 6 years now. Prabhupāda: Yes, let him come back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He can preach in colleges. It would be a very purifying experience. Being by oneself for so long in that part of the world is very difficult. Prabhupāda: To remain alone is risky. (pause) Now China wants to control India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And also Russia. Prabhupāda: Also Russia. China would have attacked, they once attempted, American equipment. They are thinking, that because the officers are corrupt, the people are dissatisfied and if we go, they will welcome. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Exactly correct. Oh yes, it's a perfect analysis. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They believe that the... Of course it's a fact, the leaders are very corrupt, but the people want the change, that's what they believe. "And if we go, the people will work with us and overthrow this government and establish a true communistic government, a government for all the benefit the people." That's their idea. They feel that way about the whole world, the Chinese. They feel in America also*-of course that's nonsense-but they think like that. That in America there is a huge working class and the working class are feeling oppressed. But that's nonsense. Prabhupāda: I think American working class are paid more than any country. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The average income in the United States now... *Guru*-kṛpā: You know a man who lays bricks, a brick layer, in India he gets paid 10 rupees a day... Prabhupāda: Utmost. *Guru*-kṛpā: And here he gets paid twelve dollars an hour. Prabhupāda: Bricklayer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, twelve dollars an hour. *Guru*-kṛpā: So one hundred dollars a day. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is impossible to engage. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh yeah, very expensive. *Guru*-kṛpā: Construction worker, just to build a simple building, they charge construction about nine dollars an hour, every man, minimum, unskilled man, nine dollars an hour. Prabhupāda: Then, how it will be possible? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were discussing this. The way to do it, is that you get some person... There are many persons all over the country who are knowledgeable, who can do the work, but who are friendly. Just like in many temples that I visited, they have people, professionals who are working, but they are young men and because they are friendly towards our society, they'll do the work for less money. I'm sure that there are people who can be found like that here. Prabhupāda: American devotee, Asian, and Australian devotee. *Guru*-kṛpā: I think it can be done amongst our devotees. Prabhupāda: Mm. We are not very anxious to get done immediately, we shall do slowly. *Guru*-kṛpā: So we are, me and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, we have organized the saṅkīrtana here. The saṅkīrtana should increase about ten times. Before they were doing three hundred dollars a day, now they should be doing at about one thousand three hundred dollars a day. Prabhupāda: That is nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore I think if we have profit, fifty percent can go for books, and fifty percent can be banked. And when they have enough money, then we can build the temple. But it's the only question... Prabhupāda: No, with what, whatever collection is there, fifty percent, go on. Why wait? *Guru*-kṛpā: And what about my collections in Japan? Prabhupāda: We also spent here for the time. *Guru*-kṛpā: 'Cause I will be getting nice collections this year. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: I will bank it here? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-kṛpā: It should come here? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The construction in Māyāpura... *Guru*-kṛpā: It's just that I don't have... Prabhupāda: You have paid? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From Rādhā*-Dāmodara party? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were doing that, previous to the Māyāpura festival. Prabhupāda: Yes are also promised (indistinct) you have to continue. There is no temple. Must be constructed. *Guru*-kṛpā: Do you think... Some of the devotees were expressing that maybe in the front would be better, then they could come in off the street. Otherwise they have to go around the... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) *Guru*-kṛpā: If the building was built in the front, some people were thinking this might be a better spot because if there's no sun back here... Prabhupāda: Hm. *Guru*-kṛpā: ...then it becomes very muddy there. Prabhupāda: What is the area here? *Guru*-kṛpā: Oh, it's bigger. Prabhupāda: Bigger? *Guru*-kṛpā: Yes. And they say these neighbors back here are the ones that do all the complaining. So some were expressing that this might be better, they could come in off the street. Also, many tourists come to Hawaii, and if we make it very nice, then they can, many tourist buses may come here to see the temple. So if it is near the gate then you'll come right out. But it's just that I have no knowledge how to build anything. Prabhupāda: So? *Guru*-kṛpā: Myself, how to go about it. I don't have any experience or knowledge of that. Prabhupāda: No, you have no experience. I know, so that Australian boy who works constantly, there is one temple,... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhāskara. *Guru*-kṛpā: Bhāskara, yeah he's in New York. Prabhupāda: He can come and help. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He'll be free pretty soon. *Guru*-kṛpā: Someone has to organize for the construction though. That's the main thing, then later the inside. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Māyāpur they are completing the, um, that building? They had begun that long residential building. Prabhupāda: Which one? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The one while we were there. Prabhupāda: Uhuḥ. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember they were doing the first, ground floor, I think you told them to. Prabhupāda: They are completing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about the other side? Prabhupāda: That side also scheduled to begin. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Bombay also has to be finished. Prabhupāda: Mm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So sufficient funds have to be sent for completing Bombay in 10 months' time and for those 2 buildings in Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: Bombay, the slab is late, temple. Latest letter? Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Very nice. And the tower (indistinct). I think it will be finished earlier. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Any more news on the attempt of the government to take it back? Prabhupāda: The government, I know it will be unable to take. They can not acquire temple, there is no such law. And even they acquire we shall say, alright take it. (indistinct) ...and the Hindus will... (indistinct) ...neglect, all right we will do it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A book should be written about the Bombay... Prabhupāda: Yes, that... One lady, Nirmala,... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Dr. Singhal's wife. Prabhupāda: Yes, she has already sent some article, why it is not published? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, whenever I see her she asks, "Why they don't publish?" Prabhupāda: Yes, and they inquire. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should start to make enquiry now throughout the world, how to push these books forward. Just as you are pointing out-sending books from India to Russia*-in this way there may be so many arrangements. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Just find out what is the venues to push our books. As much as possible. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I concentrate my time for this? Prabhupāda: Yes, only. This will be your only business. All over the world, see how the books can be pushed. In their language or in English, now we have got several languages. You have seen the latest Portuguese edition? *Guru*-kṛpā: Spanish. Prabhupāda: Spanish. You have seen? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think I have. Prabhupāda: Give it to him. Hari-śauri: It's on the bottom shelf. Prabhupāda: Last. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one? Prabhupāda: Last, last book, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew, very handsome. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have done very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the idea. If books like this can be introduced, I'm certain that every single Spanish embassy around the world will take a book like this for their library. And there's plenty of them, there's many nations. *Prabhupāda: Eventual standing order, in all the libraries. So they will take. And the get*-up is so nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Beautiful. Yeah, that book is nice, the color is good. Prabhupāda: This is printed in America also. American books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Printed in... Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: USA. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: USA. Prabhupāda: In this way if possible print in Russian language, in black market. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's possible and they'll be eager. Devotee: The young people are dissatisfied, young student. Prabhupāda: Small books print first of all, see. How the black market takes it, and then big books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is also all of the eastern European countries. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got black market. There must be intermediate man who deals in black market. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is. *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Get them. Let them make good profit. We want to put up, that's all. And let them take money, we don't mind. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. When there is trickery, you become trickery. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. Kṛṣṇa's play, those who are plain, Kṛṣṇa is very kind and plain. Those who are tricky, "All right, I am also tricky." We shall adopt all the means of the materialistic persons, simply for Kṛṣṇa. [break] Just like Kṛṣṇa's rāsa dance, any materialistic person at the dead of night will be glad to dance with young girls, what is the difference? [break] But because it was Kṛṣṇa's dancing, so this association of the woman and Kṛṣṇa is taken by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the first class worship. ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja*-vadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā. Kṛṣṇa should become a little tricky with the gopīs, "Oh, you have come in dead of night, what your husband, father would think, and there are so many (indistinct) and saintly (indistinct), please get out immediately." You have got that? Devotees: Mm, hm. Prabhupāda: And the gopīs were thinking "What this rascal says, say?" (chuckles) They are so sorry that, "We have come leaving everything and this rascal is giving us moral instruction." This is love, they can chastise Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...somehow or other, black market, white market, red market. Let them make... And as soon as there is taste, there will be very good demand. And this black marketeer will make profit and they'll do. This Chinese policy or the Russian policy will not stand. Simply we require to make ourselves strong. As soon as we become stronger than the communist movement, we shall finish it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Finish everyone? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean attack them? Prabhupāda: That I shall tell later. You become little strong. We cannot allow them. Because Kṛṣṇa's policy is, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam [Bg. 4.8]. You have to take that policy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Vṛndāvana, one day, on a walk you were saying that Kṛṣṇa's soldiers will walk all over the world and they will approach everyone and say, "Do you believe in Kṛṣṇa?" And if they say, "No," immediately, kill them. Prabhupāda: Not kill them with weapon, but kill them by saṅkīrtana. They are already dead, so physically killing is for very big, big, strong man like Mao, or this Lenin, like that. Not common people, they have to be shown mercy. Hari-śauri: More a question of revival, for the common people, more a question of revival. Prabhupāda: If they allow us to forward our movement, then we are satisfied. And when there is hindrance, the person who is hindering, finished. But don't do it now, (chuckles) then you will be finished. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you think the time will come when we will...? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because Kṛṣṇa has two business, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam [Bg. 4.8]. We are for delivering all people. Anyone who will put hindrance, then we have to finish. Not small, big. That is going on all over the world, politics. *Guru*-kṛpā: Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, he also... Prabhupāda: That is the way everywhere. [break] They will be automatically finished. Just like the Rāmakrishna Mission, who are advertising that they have got wonderful importance. They are now finished. They are simply making false propaganda in India. Actually, they have got fangs, what is called, fangs? Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The quality? Devotees: Fangs. Prabhupāda: Fangs, fangs. That is broken. So make... First of all try to push books, everywhere all over the world. They have got so many languages, like Russian or... Blackmarket. Chinese also. Blackmarket, they cannot check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no, and you don't need permission either. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And there's more profit too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In black market. Prabhupāda: Ah yes, if there is demand, then you will make good profit also. And there will be demand. Hari-śauri: They'll be big demand for your books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very big, very big. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) They sent one translation of Tulasi dāsa's Rāma*-caritra-mānasa. It was sold, all, in a week. And therefore they have stopped now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, really? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpā: It is Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. *Prabhupāda: They sent (indistinct), Bhagavad*-gītā. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes I wonder that*-of course we want our books to be translated by our own men-but in the absence of sufficient translators... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...that thing you see that er, our men means they know the philosophy. Otherwise they do not know, that is the difficulty. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing we have*-I'm just using this hypothetical... Prabhupāda: Any, "our man" who knows Russian language, he should check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Professionals may translate, but one of our men may check? Prabhupāda: Yes, just like our books are being done in Germany now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Yeah, then you can have quite a few books translated. Because if we only depend on our men for the entire translating work, it will never get done. Prabhupāda: No, no, then get professional man, but he may not create the havoc. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he must be checked by someone who knows. Whew, this is exciting. I'd love to see your Bhagavad*-gītā, the most widely read blackmarket book in Russia. Prabhupāda: Then that will create revolution. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew. These books are very revolutionary. You are very strong. You have put everything in a very clear*-cut, strong words. You have attacked everyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, as fools and rascals. Prabhupāda: (laughs) This is fact, it is not exaggeration. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In your article in Back to Godhead about Marx, you call him a nonsense, you call Marxism nonsense. Prabhupāda: Yes, what is his philosophy? (sic:) Dialectitude? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dialectic Materialism. Prabhupāda: So, we have written one Dialectic Spiritualism. Hari-śauri: Harikeśa's. Prabhupāda: Harikeśa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he read it to us. He's preaching, I think in Eastern Europe sometimes. We got a report. Has he written you? Prabhupāda: Yes. I heard that, but is he being alright or not? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From the report it appears that he goes occasionally into some eastern European countries. Mostly he's concentrating in England, Germany and Scandinavias. He has a party and they are doing speaking engagements and distributing books. And sometimes he went in which countries? Devotee: Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Budapest. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is going to some communist European countries. Devotee: They make their vans with false bottoms and they hide the books underneath so at the border they do not see. Underneath the van is all your books. When they get in the country then they distribute the books to these centers. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Revolution. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. Devotee: Sometimes he said when he's speaking, the translator will not say what he is saying because it's... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes he forgets*-usually he speaks very carefully-guarded words. But once or twice he says, he starts speaking direct Krishna consciousness and the translator looks at him and won't translate it into the local language. Sometimes he forgets himself and starts speaking about Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the translator suddenly looks at him. Usually he covers everything. Prabhupāda: He has done a good job. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is a fit person, very intelligent. Prabhupāda: So in this way... You are all intelligent, you can plan. The aim is how to distribute books. That is first consideration. [break] In Bhāgavata it is very figuratively described that we have got this body and the different parts. Just like Arjuna is sitting on the chariot. There is chariot driver, there are horses, reins. There is field, and the arrow, and the bow. They have been figuratively. So this can be used for killing the enemies of our Kṛṣṇa Consciousness and then give up all this paraphernalia, chariot, we... Just like after fighting, only victory, then you kill them. And similarly this body is there, the mind is there, the senses are there. So utilize it for conquering over this material existence. And then give up this body and go back to home. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Does the devotee, I mean just like you are always enthusing us to push on... *Prabhupāda: That is sharpening your weapons. That is also described. By serving the spiritual master, you keep your weapon always sharpened. And then take help from Kṛṣṇa, the words of spiritual master sharpen weapon and yasya prasādad bhagavata..., and the spiritual master is happy, then Kṛṣṇa immediately will help. He gives you strength. Suppose you got a sword, sharpened sword. But if you have no strength, what will you do with the sword? Kṛṣṇa will give you the strength, how to fight and kill the enemies. Everything is described. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu (said) guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya [Cc. Madhya 19.151], make your weapon sharpened by the instruction of the spiritual master and then Kṛṣṇa will give you strength, you'll be able to conquer. This figurative explanation I think last night I did. Here is a verse, acyuta bala, acyuta bala. Is Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa here? Hari-śauri: (calls out) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: We are soldiers of Kṛṣṇa, servants of Arjuna. Simply you will have to act accordingly, then you will finish up enemies. They have no power, although their number is hundred times. Just like Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas. They have no power, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bg. 18.78]. Keep Kṛṣṇa in your side, then everything will be successful. Tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtiḥ. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have to go now, catch our (indistinct). You'll be coming to America in about a month's time? Prabhupāda: I think so. Hari-śauri: Two weeks. Prabhupāda: Three. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Ratha*-yātrā in New York is taking place on July 18th. Prabhupāda: So if I go earlier in New York, my place is available? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh yeah, if you like to come it's ready. Prabhupāda: Mm, I want to go. I want to see how this new building is... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Utilized. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) I went there in New York, no place to stay. It is very gladdening we have got now nice building. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This place is the best facility we have in the movement. [break] *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Nitāiyer karuṇā habe braje rādhā*-kṛṣṇa pābe. (indistinct) Balarām hoile nitāi, so this word bolo akutibe(?), it is supporter (indistinct) the verse (indistinct) nāyam ātmā bala-hinena labhyaḥ. Lord Baladeva. Give this garland to him and this flower to that boy. (dictation tape recording plays) (end) *Morning Walk-*-May 12, 1976, Honolulu Prabhupāda: ...made of grass? Rādhāvallabha: They make plastic grass. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rādhāvallabha: They make it out of plastic. Prabhupāda: Even plastic, they can cover big land like this? Rādhāvallabha: Almost this big. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They cover football fields. They can cover big areas, but it's artificial. [break] ...flowers also. Prabhupāda: You take. [break] Rādhāvallabha: ...shopping centers, they also make plastic trees. Prabhupāda: Hm? Rādhāvallabha: In the big shopping centers they have plastic trees growing. Prabhupāda: Grown? Rādhāvallabha: They don't need any water. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't grow. [break] ...say, though, that "We don't want to enter into a religious, philosophical discussion. Simply we are trying to improve the standard of life." Prabhupāda: What improvement you have done? What improvement you have done? I do not wish to die. Can you help me? Then what improvement? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: What improvement? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But we can make it more comfortable. Prabhupāda: My father died, his father died, his father died, so I'll die, my son will die. What improvement you have done? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can make it more comfortable to die. Prabhupāda: Oh. Peaceful death. This will be accepted by rascals. That's all. If I am going to die, where is comfort? Death is comfortable? Rādhāvallabha: My mother is a nurse, and she told me that she's seen many people die, and she said, "It is very nice. It is very peaceful..." Prabhupāda: Your mother is also peaceful? Rādhāvallabha: She's dead. (laughter) I went to see her when she was dying, and I told her that "Now you should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa because you're going to die." She said, "No, I am not ready. I'm going to fight it." But she lost the fight. Hari-śauri: (to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Rādhāvallabha: Another girl went to see her mother when her mother was dying, and she told her mother, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," and her mother said, "Shut up," and then died. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] Because we don't accept their scientific achievements as being worthy, for example, in medicine, and things like this, they will say that our argument is one*-sided. Just like that Dr. Wolfe. He was thinking like that. *Prabhupāda: What is one*-sided? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, we simply say that the scientists have done nothing good to further human cause. Prabhupāda: No, we don't say that. We say that you take credit as far as you have been successful. Why do you say there is no God? We protest against that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...there's a God, then they won't be making so many materialistic arrangements. Prabhupāda: You don't require it. [break] ...so many materialistic improvements, we require open field like this. We require trees. That is nature's gift. Although we have got this car, we come here to take advantage of nature's gift. Why you have come here? The city was there. I don't like. So actually you enjoy nature's gift. Important persons, they work whole week in the city, and as soon as there is weekend they go to the village. Why? The enjoyment is in the village. They do not like to stay in the factory. It is disgusting. [break] Devotee (1): Just like sleep. And just like when we're sleeping it's very comfortable, then why should we be afraid of dying? It's very comfortable. Death is just like sleep. When we're sleeping we feel.... So why, then, we should be afraid of death? Prabhupāda: But you are actually afraid. Why? You say.... You are a great philosopher: "Why should we be afraid?" But if I kill you, immediately you cry. Why? Don't cry. Let peacefully die. I kill you? Why do you protest, "This man is killing me, killing me! Save me! Save me! Save me! Police! Police! Police!" Why? Die peacefully. I am helping you to die peaceful. Why you make me criminal? [break] ...says, "Thou shall not kill." If killing is peaceful, dying is peaceful, why He has prohibited? Devotee (1): Even though you may kill me, we still don't mind that. Prabhupāda: No, I am not so fool I am going to kill you. That is an..., the business. But you die peacefully. Let him throw in the sea. Die peacefully. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In other words, they are theorizing that "Death is a very peaceful state of sleeping. Why are we protesting so much"? Prabhupāda: But that is not sleeping. After sleeping you have to awake, and you have to bark like dog, "Give me food. Gow! Gow! Gow!" You are not going to sleep after death. You are awakening like a dog, and bark and disturb others. That is your mistake, that you are sleeping forever. No sleeping. You have to wake up again. Rādhāvallabha: [break] ...told me that he was.... He said that spirit and matter are the same. So I grabbed him and threatened to punch him in the nose. He said, "No, no, that is different." Devotee (1): [break] So if we have to wake again, then there's no really.... Why should we have to stop birth and death? Prabhupāda: So you have no experience? Do you sleep perpetually, whole day and night? Why do you wake up? Is it not your experience that you sleep at night and wake up at daytime? Devotee (1): Yes. But if I'm going to wake again, then why should I want to stop it? I go to sleep; I wake up. Prabhupāda: No, but your waking.... You are going to wake up like a dog. That is the privilege. You sleep perpetually..., not perpetually, for seven months, and then you wake up as a dog. The body is changed. And go on barking. That you do not know. That is ignorance. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's amazing. You go to sleep in a human body, and you wake up in a dog body. Prabhupāda: Ah, that's it. What is this conglomeration? Devotee (1): [break] ...wakes up the next morning. I am not afraid to go to sleep because I know that I will wake up. So if I'm going to die and I know... Prabhupāda: Die means you sleep as a man and wake up as a dog. That is dying. Devotee (1): But it is okay to be a dog. It is okay to be a dog. Prabhupāda: Yes. But if you are so foolish that it is okay to be dog, then it is very nice. Hari-śauri: But if we live forever, then where's the harm in changing bodies a few times? We can enjoy in all different kinds of bodies and have a good time whilst we're here. And if we're eternal, then what is the big rush to get out? Prabhupāda: That is going on. For the foolish person, it is going on. [break] ...land there is? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...farms all over the world, even in India, they have to irrigate the land. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have to irrigate the land artificially like this. Either they dig a ditch and they pour water into the ditch by some method, or sprinkling like this. So in a society where everyone is God conscious, Kṛṣṇa says how He supplies the rain. Was there any need even for such irrigation? Prabhupāda: Irrigation? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Irrigation means digging a hole beside where the vegetables or grains are growing. Or will the rain just fall from the sky naturally? Prabhupāda: You have to work. Otherwise.... This is material world. Without working, you cannot get anything. [break] ...between material world and spiritual world. In the material world you have to work to get your necessities. In the spiritual world there is no need of working. Rādhāvallabha: [break] ...talking about the spiritual world is pie in the sky. They say that we should just talk about how to take care of things here. Prabhupāda: You cannot take care. There are so many problems. You cannot take. You are simply crying, "The problems are there. Problems are there." Rādhāvallabha: Then they will say, "Well, how will talking about the spiritual world help solve the problems here in the material world?" Prabhupāda: [break] ...concerned with the material world, you remain. Rādhāvallabha: [break] ...put out by the karmīs, and it is a book on how to become peaceful and happy, and it shows pictures of dogs and cats sleeping, and it says, "This is how you do it. You should lie down like this and everything will be all right." Prabhupāda: The dog is lying peacefully because he has got sense that "I have got a good master." Therefore he is sleeping. They do not sleep peacefully without master. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that the scientists have been proven guilty. Now we have to decide what their punishment should be. Prabhupāda: Nature will punish them. [break] Devotee (1): ...kind of programs should we develop to defeat the scientists? Just like we distribute books in the street. A lot of times the scientists may not get some of these books. Prabhupāda: Defeat is that "You are scientist. I don't want death. Please stop it." Ask him. "I don't want disease. Please stop it. Then you are scientist. Otherwise I kick on your face." Devotee (1): Should we go to the colleges and universities and make program? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...these rascals are being controlled at every step; still, they are thinking independent. That is the difficulty. They are being kicked in every moment, and still they are thinking, "I am free." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is following the scientists, too. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is following the scientists. Prabhupāda: Not everyone. We don't follow. You may follow. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Rādhāvallabha: One professor was telling me that he didn't think you should write about all these things about the universe in your books, because none of the scientists will believe it. So I told him that all the scientists were hogs, dogs, camels and asses, and he became enraged, and he left. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But it's not so unbelievable. *Prabhupāda: And what is, the scientists will not believe? We say, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ: [Bg. 2.13] "As the child is becoming boy, boy is becoming, similarly you have to change body." What scientist has to challenge this? But they are obstinate dog. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ you have to accept. Can the scientist say, "No, no, no, the child is not going to be a young man or boy"? Can he say like that? Then why they challenge unnecessarily? They are changing the body. Can the scientists stop it? But if they are unreasonable dogs, then what can be done? What argument will reach them? A dog cannot understand. Rādhāvallabha: Just stick. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, they will not understand even with stick. You see? They are less than dog. Bhagavad*-gītā days, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13], very simple argument, that "As the child is becoming boy, boy is becoming young man, young man is becoming middle-aged man, and middle-aged is becoming old man, similarly, you are changing body." So where is the difficulty to understand? But they are so obstinate rascal, they will not believe. As soon as the child is dead, does he become boy? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: So what is that? What is the scientists' reply? Rādhāvallabha: They say he's dead. Prabhupāda: So why dead? Rādhāvallabha: They say the brain and the heart stopped working. Prabhupāda: So you replace it, rascal. Rādhāvallabha: We're working on it. Prabhupāda: There are such.... Obstinate dogs. [break]...difficulty. Mūḍha. They are mūḍhas, and they will continue to remain mūḍha. Then how you can make him enlightened? They cannot answer properly. Why a dead child born does not grow, does not change body? The body is a lump of matter. Analyze the body. Where is life? These are all very reasonable. But they will not. Dog's obstinacy. How you can convince them? Simply waste of time, talk with them. Therefore they should be neglected. Rādhāvallabha: They did one experiment where they took a... Prabhupāda: Eh? Rādhāvallabha: They did an experiment where they took an embryo of a child, and they put it in a test tube, large bottle, and they were growing it by feeding it, and it just turned into a shapeless blob. Prabhupāda: So why did you take embryo from the child? You make embryo. You cannot make even an egg which can be..., give a chicken. So to waste time with these rascals is very difficult. Devotee (1): Such programs are minimized in the temple. Should there be a college program in each temple? Or should everyone just work along with the BBT Library Party? Should there be a college program? Prabhupāda: No, it is useless to talk with them. If you can peacefully sell some books, that's all. Don't enter into very long arguments, because they are all rascals. They cannot understand. Better peacefully, as far as possible, sell some books. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya kāku-śataṁ kṛtvā ca... This is the process. They cannot understand that because there is soul within the child, therefore child is becoming boy. As soon as there is no soul, the child does not become a boy. This simple philosophy they cannot understand, so what is their position? Now, this car is standing because there is no driver. Anyone can understand. Stand still. It will remain there for thousands of years unless a driver comes. Simple reason. But they are so rascal, they will not understand. So what is the use of talking with them? Simply waste of time. Devotee (1): These people cannot be converted. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. The dog cannot be converted. But we have to do it with stick. [break] ...that a dead child can be brought scientifically into life and he will grow, and still, they'll argue. So what is the use of argument with these rascals? When they are caught up, that "Do this," "Yes, we shall do in the future," and "What about the present?" there is no answer. Hari-śauri: Everywhere we see millions and millions of different types of bodies are all growing, there's living force there, but still, they haven't been able to find it, and it's there all the..., everywhere, surrounding them, so what kind of scientists? Prabhupāda: [break] ...provement. Have you improved this, that a dead body can be brought into life by scientific arrangement? And still, they'll say "improvement." What improvement? Simply dry talks, that is science? [break] First subject matter for scientific advancement, that there is soul within the body. On account of the presence of the soul, the body is changing. So the soul is different from the body. So this is the first education of scientist. And they have avoided this major.... They simply bluffing people, "We have discovered this..." What you have discovered? Discover this: What is the principle within the body? Real discovery, they are not interested. They are bluffing. They are fools, making others fools and going on as scientific advancement. First of all answer this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Rādhāvallabha Prabhu... Prabhupāda: Can you challenge? "Do this first. What is your science? This is rascal science. You give up the major problem; you are making research how many atoms are working. What you will do by understanding atoms are going?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because it's very difficult to... Prabhupāda: Difficult? Then you are not scientist. You cannot touch the difficult problem. Childish thing, you are bluffing children, that's all. You have no power to tackle the difficulties. You cannot give life to the dead body. Hari-śauri: [break] But if we don't make the research, then how will we ever solve these problems? *Prabhupāda: Then you are.... As soon as you say "making research," then you are not perfect. Don't say that you are scientist. You are student. Don't say that you are scientist. And you are declaring, "There is no authority, nothing." Why do you speak all this nonsense? Because you are not scientist. You are making research. That's all right. When you complete your research*-you come to the conclusion-then call yourself as scientist. Why, as a student, neophyte, you are claiming as "scientist"? Why misleading people? You do not know anything, how things are going on, and you are claiming you are scientist. Our point is, "Don't do this, misleading propaganda. You are not scientist. We protest against this false propaganda. Why you are making.... You do not know anything. You cannot solve any problem, major problem, so why you are claiming scientist? Stop this as a gentleman." [break] And there is the soul within the body, and when the soul is gone, transferred to another body, it is dead. Dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. One who is actually scientist, he is not surprised. He knows the soul has transferred to another body. That's all. That is scientist. [break] ...real scientist, not a rascal like you. We don't give.... [break] You cannot act. We accept Kṛṣṇa as scientist because He explains. You cannot explain. How we can accept you as scientist? You are rascal. Up till now, nobody was able to explain-simply vague. How we can accept these vague explanation as scientist? And daily changing, every year new theories. And I have to accept you scientist? Kṛṣṇa said tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13] five thousand years ago. It was known very well, and it is going on. That is science. You cannot give any solution, you are changing your ideas and theories every year, and we have to accept you as scientist? [break] ...speaking something, and I have to accept him as scientist? Madman, crazy fellow, saying something today, saying something other next day. Hari-śauri: In Māyāpura you gave that Bengali proverb, "A madman, what he cannot say? A goat, what he cannot eat?" Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles) [break] They are afraid. Stop disease, stop old age, stop birth, stop death. [break] ...the major problems, and you call yourself.... [break] Devotee (1): ...the most important thing. Why should we... Prabhupāda: Ah. That proves that you are a rascal number one. These are not important things. Why do you keep memory of so many dead men in statues? It is not important thing. He has died, died. That's all. Devotee (1): They say that being able to work on all of our practical problems in the material world... Prabhupāda: And this is practical. You make something that nobody will die. Devotee (1): But a lot of them already admit that there's nothing we can do about death. *Prabhupāda: Then don't call yourself scientist. The problems are there. You cannot solve them. [break] ...intelligent way of defeating so*-called scientists. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You are asking us to make solution... Prabhupāda: That is my problem. If anyone can solve this problem, I will call him scientist. That is everyone's problem. The artists, they are trying to remain young, especially the ladies. And still, the scientist cannot stop this, that "No more becoming old, old." Then where is your improvement? You have invented some cosmetic. You apply it, and your, what is called, hollow cheek will be swollen up. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in London recently, just like they have plastic grass, they have plastic trees, they have a plastic woman. Prabhupāda: That is all right, but the plastic woman will not satisfy me. Rādhāvallabha: They have operations. Prabhupāda: Simply rascals, that's all. Better not to talk with, that "You are rascal number one. I don't want to waste my time. When you make solution of these problems, then we shall talk. Now go on researching and befool your followers that in future you'll get." That's all. Rādhāvallabha: [break] ...cut incisions on their face and take out fat and tighten the skin and sew it up again. And they say this makes them beautiful. Prabhupāda: That is so long he is living. Can you do it in the dead body? Then where is the solution? [break] ...condition you can do that. That is not in your hand. Living condition is not in your hand. You'll depend on some superior arrangement. Why do you take credit? You do this in a dead body. Then... *Rādhāvallabha: When they bury the dead bodies they put make*-up on the face and make a nice smile, so people can see the dead body is happy. Prabhupāda: Let the scientists be happy by seeing dead people. (end) *Morning Walk-*-May 15, 1976, Honolulu Prabhupāda: God created the soul and the matter also. Has he discussed anything? Hayagrīva: No. Prabhupāda: God created everything. God created soul and the matter. Hayagrīva: The individual soul. Prabhupāda: Ah. Hayagrīva: Well, then, how is the individual soul eternal if it has a beginning? Prabhupāda: No, we say there is no beginning. As God has no beginning, soul has no beginning. Hayagrīva: No beginning, yes. Prabhupāda: Na jāyate na mriyate vā. That is the distinction between matter and soul. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They counter that if God is all*-powerful, He can do anything. So why not He can create a soul and that soul can then be eternal from that point? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Christian may argue that God is all*-powerful, so God has created the soul, and from that point the soul is eternal. Prabhupāda: Soul is eternal, we admit. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But only from that point, not in the past. Prabhupāda: Not in the past? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, because according to Biblical philosophy you only have one lifetime in this world. Prabhupāda: Then who goes to heaven? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Persons who adopt the principles. Prabhupāda: And if one life, then who goes to heaven and who goes to hell? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very few go to heaven. Prabhupāda: Anyone, if he goes to hell or heaven, then why do you say "one life"? Then another life. Otherwise what is the meaning of going to heaven or hell? Hari-śauri: No. They get one chance to good or bad, and then finish. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: They get one chance. Do good or bad. Then you either go to heaven or to hell. But you don't get another chance. Prabhupāda: But if he goes heaven means there is another life. How do you say "one life"? This is defective philosophy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But this is what God has said in the Bible; therefore we must accept. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is what God has said in the Bible; therefore we must accept. Prabhupāda: God, if He says something unreasonable, how it can be accepted? You say, "one life." Then who goes to the next life? That is defective. Why do you not talk back? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...cannot explain why some people are born in a more pious setting and some people are born in a more impious setting. Prabhupāda: Because they do not know the karma. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. According to one's activities, pious or impious, he gets the next birth. That is quite reasonable. But they do not believe in karma. When I was student in Scottish Churches College, so we had to attend class, half an hour, Bible. So the Dr. Urquhart, he did.... The argument was: "So if karma is there and I am suffering for my karma, who is the witness?" But because they do not know that the witness is God. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He asked that question? Prabhupāda: Yes, he asked that question. [break] Paramātmā.... They say "Holy Ghost." What is that Holy Ghost? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Holy Ghost is supposed to give knowledge to persons who have embraced the teaching. *Prabhupāda: Therefore He is seeing what you are doing. So according to your action, the Holy Ghost gives you another birth. [break] ...sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati. [break]...dictating everyone's heart, and He is observing. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...contends that if a person does not become fully aware in this lifetime of God, then they don't have another chance, and they are condemned to hell for eternity. Prabhupāda: The hell or heaven doesn't matter. The next life is there. How you say "one life"? That is defective theory. Therefore this philosophy cannot be accepted. Anything which is defective is not to be accepted. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Simply dogma. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...rejected. That is Vedic process. Hari-śauri: Actually, there's so many different understandings that the Christians have of the same thing. They all have different type of philosophy. Hayagrīva: No, Christ never said that. Christ never said you only have one life. Prabhupāda: So that is real philosophy. That is real philosophy. Hayagrīva: This is the.... All of this evolved from the church fathers. Prabhupāda: That is all defective, unscrupulous. Rādhāvallabha: [break] ...come up to us on saṅkīrtana, and they are smoking a cigarette, and they say, "Do you accept Jesus Christ?" Prabhupāda: Hm? Rādhāvallabha: They say, "You cannot be successful unless you accept Jesus Christ like us." But they were smoking. Prabhupāda: We accept. Rather, you do not accept. Jesus Christ said "Thou shall not kill." We strictly observe that, but you kill. You are not a Christian. Hari-śauri: "But that's just an ideal, the Ten Commandments. You're not expected to follow." *Prabhupāda: No, that is your explanation. That is your concoction. [break] ...take it. As soon as you disobey Ten Commandments, you are not a Christian. You are heathen. [break] And the thing is that religious faith should not be discussed on philosophy because everyone has got some, his own concocted faith. That is not philosophy. Faith is different. "I believe," "You believe," "I do not believe"*-that is not philosophy. [break] ...philosophy in Bhagavad-gītā that asmin dehe.... Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13], there is soul. This is philosophy. Religion without philosophy is sentiment, and philosophy without religion is mental concoction. So both of them should be combined. Then it is perfect. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...can be given, though, that man's logic is so tiny, pea brain, and God's logic is so great, so how can actually man discuss the logic of God? Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is given that God is infinitely great. Prabhupāda: Then don't discuss. Sleep. If you cannot understand God's logic and God's philosophy, then don't discuss. Stop discuss. Rādhāvallabha: Jewish people say that you can't chant the name of God because it is too sacred. Prabhupāda: Yes, too sacred, that's.... Actually that's a fact. And those who are too sinful, they cannot chant. [break] ...these ten kinds of offenses. Rādhāvallabha: [break] ...that God has put the world here for us to enjoy, so we will please Him by enjoying it. [break] Prabhupāda: You go at four o'clock to your working place and come at night, ten. Is that enjoyment? Rādhāvallabha: But on the weekend we can go to the beach. And we can eat whatever we want. *Prabhupāda: No, no, you can go to hell also. Different thing.... [break] ...jarā*-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu. That is there. If you are suffering from disease, where is enjoyment? Mental discomfort, bodily discomfort. You are taking thrice pills for tranquillity. Is that enjoyment? Rādhāvallabha: They say you have to take the good with the bad. Prabhupāda: This nonsense enjoyment. Fool's paradise. For keeping the mind in tranquillity he is taking four times pills. For sleeping, he is taking pill. Does he enjoy that? Rādhāvallabha: By suffering you can get a deeper appreciation... *Prabhupāda: Then what is enjoyment? Suffer. Then why is called enjoyment? By suffering you can.... (too much static*-end) [Audio quality of tape is very poor throughout] Prabhupāda: (indistinct) what is the program? (indistinct) What is your insurance to save you (indistinct)? Woman Devotee (1): My insurance? Prabhupāda: (indistinct). Only insurance is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati. (indistinct) That is your only insurance. That is (indistinct). Simply maintains (indistinct). (indistinct) insurance to save you. Devotee (2): "He quickly becomes righteous and attains lasting peace. O son of Kuntī, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes." Prabhupāda: (indistinct). *Devotee (2): Purport. "This should not be misunderstood. In the Seventh Chapter the Lord says that one who is engaged in mischievous activities cannot become a devotee of the Lord. One who is not a devotee of the Lord has no good qualifications whatsoever. The question remains, then, How can a person engaged in abominable activities*-either by accident or intention-be a pure devotee? This question may be justly raised. The miscreants, as stated in the Seventh Chapter, who never come to the devotional service of the Lord, have no good qualifications, as is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Generally, a devotee who is engaged in the nine kinds of devotional activities is engaged in the process of cleansing all material contamination from the heart. He puts the Supreme Personality of Godhead within his heart, and all sinful contaminations are naturally washed away. Continuous thinking of the Supreme Lord makes him pure by nature. According to the Vedas, there is a certain regulation that if one falls down from his exalted position he has to under go certain ritualistic processes to purify himself. But there is no such condition, because the purifying process is already there in the heart of the devotee, due to his remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly. Therefore, the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare should be continued without stoppage. This will protect a devotee from all accidental falldowns. He will thus remain perpetually free from all material contaminations." Prabhupāda: It is the only process to save yourself. Devotee (3): You..., you told a story once about, there was one, the devotee of Lord Caitanya, where he had never met Lord Caitanya, but he had some water sprinkled on him from a Muslim, Muhammadan, and that, that astrologer told him to pour..., to drink lead, hot lead. And he said, I was (indistinct)... Prabhupāda: Buddhimanta Khān. Devotee (3): Yeah, Buddhimanta Khān. (pause) You've also said in the past that there is no reality of this material world save for, save Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, save... *Prabhupāda: Yes, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura (says), nāma vinā kichu nāhika āra, cauddha*-bhuvana-majhe. (pause) Devotee (3): Kṛṣṇa is our only insurance, and you are the, you are the insurance representative. *Prabhupāda: People are so intelligent that when the representative of Kṛṣṇa speaks, they (indistinct) enemies, and sometimes they crucify, kill. So people are so kind that they are not killing. Otherwise, why Christ, (indistinct) was killed? What fault? What is his fault? Just see. Was there any fault in his words? He advised, "Don't kill," and he was crucified. We have to deal with such rascals. I may be representative, but he is directly son of God. People are so rascal that they did not believe even the son of God, what to speak of His representative. What is that? Why Jesus Christ was killed? What was his fault? People are (indistinct). What the Christians will ask? Therefore we are (indistinct) and not only that, they have been giving this idea that "For our sinful reaction Christ has taken contract, so let him suffer being killed(?)." Cow*-killing is very, very sin, "That's all right; don't mind. Christ will suffer." How easy understanding they have. Devotee (2): They... Prabhupāda: Huh?. Devotee (2): They call it love. Prabhupāda: This is love? If you say, "Prabhupāda, I love you. Now I want to kill you. Now I will kill you." Please don't love me! (laughter) Please get out. "I love you so much that I will kill you." Devotee (2): They like to keep the, Christ, the deity of Christ, they keep him nailed on the cross. They think that's very... Prabhupāda: Therefore you see all the pictures in the Church, he is carrying the cross, and he is pushing, pushed by the government men. How miserable condition they show. Devotee (2): They don't have any... Prabhupāda: They do not have picture, just like we show Kṛṣṇa is enjoying. Such rotten things. That is going on in religion. They love, they love means they want to see their lovable suffering so much, you see. Only then (indistinct). This, we want to see our lovable object that He is enjoying. Young boy, (indistinct) gopīs, and nice night, playing flute, He's enjoying. That we want to see. And they want to see that lovable he is suffering. How they can see it, if there is love? Devotee (2): If they loved him they would not be able to stand to look at that. Prabhupāda: That is going on in the name of religion. Therefore so many rogues, rascals. Rascals. We say clearly (indistinct). Simply rogues. Devotee (3): That is the symptom. Then, if they loved him, they would not be able to see that and glorify that. *Prabhupāda: That there was something (indistinct), one picture (indistinct). There was competition that painter has to paint a picture that there is (indistinct) of the mother with child, so what would be the facial expression. So the painter has to express the feelings (indistinct). That one painter he painted a picture of the mother, intimate picture. (indistinct). So that is real life. You may paint (indistinct) expression, that is artificial. The real thing, the mother cannot see it. That mother, that is (indistinct). It is (indistinct). So how the mother can see it? There is (indistinct) being killed. So it is not very easy to (indistinct) cover the mother, there is no question of him painting so many rascal expressions. That is (indistinct). All (indistinct) in the name of religion. All rascals. All rascal. Sinful. They do not know what is God, they do not know (indistinct) what is the meaning of love. Simply rubber*-stamp: "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." They are interested only in sense ratification. There cannot be any religion. So this cheating type of religion is rejected. Dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavaḥ. All cheating type of religion is kicked out. This is no religion at all. All bogus. Is that religion, (indistinct) the instruction of Christ, (indistinct) kill Him. Is that religion? And they are showing how He was killed. Devotee (3): One, one man once said that to carry, to glorify the cross is like they..., glorifying the revolver. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): If the husband is shot, then you take the gun, and you worship the gun. Prabhupāda: That is.... Yes. Very good example. Are you, are you going to some church (indistinct). Woman: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: So, the same picture, that Jesus Christ is carrying his cross, and falling. (indistinct) and you go enjoy. (long pause) In Māyāpura you have seen Yoga*-pīṭha, Caitanya Mahāprabhu birthplace? Yoga-pīṭha. Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Devotee (2): Oh. Prabhupāda: ...and two sides, his two wives. Not that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is worshiped as a sannyāsī. Devotee (2): Gṛhastha. Prabhupāda: Gṛhastha. Gṛhastha with two wives, he must enjoy. This is our process. Why you will see Him as a sannyāsī? Therefore Nityānanda prabhu broke (daṇḍa?). They want..., do not want to see Him as sannyāsī, (indistinct) renounce. Why He should be renounced? He is gṛhastha. "Oh, well." God must enjoy... (break) Devotee (5): I'm sorry it took so long, but I had a little trouble getting through to them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (5): First their..., first the telephone service were not free, and then their line was busy for some time. So I just got through to them a few minutes ago, and he says it wasn't printed by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Prabhupāda: Then? Devotee (5): He said they did it independently, unauthorized from Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, and he already chastised them for using the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust label, 'cause it has nothing to do with the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Prabhupāda: Who is he? Devotee (5): Uhhh, I'm not sure. Who sent it? Bahulāśva? That devotee named Bahulāśva. Devotee (6): Bahulāśva and Bhakti dāsa. Devotee (5): And who else? Devotee (6): Jayānanda. But Jayānanda... I saw this printed in L.A. before I came here. Devotee (5): Ohh. Devotee (6): So I don't think it's a San Francisco endeavor. Devotee (7): The separations were all... Devotee (5): No, he said it was done there. Devotee (6): Oh, in San Francisco? Devotee (5): Yeah, they printed it while the festival was going on in India, and he didn't know anything about it until he came back and saw that it was all printed. He said they were going to use it for some, something to do with lectures. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (5): They were going to use it to introduce lectures and so forth. Prabhupāda: When it was not published, so why did he publish unauthorized? Devotee (5): Oh, I don't know. He said that he was a little upset about it himself. Prabhupāda: So this should not take place again. They should be informed that without being passed by the authority, nobody should publish any literature. This is already (indistinct)... Devotee (5): Without, without being passed by the authorities...? Prabhupāda: Should not be published. Devotee (5): Does that mean the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust trustees? Prabhupāda: Yes. So those who are managing that why their (indistinct)? Where does he live? Devotee (3): I, we're still not sure who published it, uh, Bahulāśva or Dharmādhyakṣa? Has anybody, did you recommend? Devotee (5): Rameśvara told me that they are the ones who did it, from the San Francisco center. (indistinct) he mentioned, and a Dharmādhyakṣa. Devotee (3): Mm hm. He's in LA. Devotee (5): He mentioned those two. He didn't mention the others. He said they were... Prabhupāda: Bahulāśva published, published? Devotee (5): He said Bahulāśva and Dharmādhyakṣa. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (5): Dharmādhyakṣa. I don't know who he is. Devotee (3): It's the colleges. Devotee (5): Oh. They're, I think, in charge of the college program. Prabhupāda: The idea is good, but (indistinct). Impersonal. Devotee (5): Hm. Prabhupāda: Impersonal is not good. Devotee (5): So if someone was to receive this, they wouldn't necessarily connect it with you at all. They could think it was anything, 'cause there's no mention of your name. Prabhupāda: Who published it? Devotee (5): Uhh, I don't know who printed it. Prabhupāda: That you did not ask? Devotee (5): Rameśvara didn't know anything about who printed it or how many copies were printed or anything. He said all he knew was that it was put together by Bahulāśva and Dharmādhyakṣa. Prabhupāda: So ask them. Devotee (5): I have to, to contact them and find out how it was actually... Should I write them a letter? Prabhupāda: He just sent one letter. You, you write. Devotee (5): This letter? (pause) Prabhupāda: Oh he, he is informed you are going? Devotee (5): Rameśvara? Oh, yeah. They're waiting. Prabhupāda: So, (indistinct). Devotee (5): Well, they sent the tickets today, but we have not made the reservation yet. We were waiting for them to... (break) Prabhupāda: ...that place was selected... Devotee (5): Hmm. Prabhupāda: ...for (indistinct). (indistinct) Devotee (7): Do you want to establish one center there? Prabhupāda: (indistinct). Devotee (7): Yeah, I would like to help. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (7): I would like to help. Prabhupāda: Yes. .....break..... Devotee (7): ...(indistinct)? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Especially when there is... Devotee (7): (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: This Ratha*-yātrā is in memory of Kṛṣṇa's coming there with His brother and sister during one eclipse, to take bath, coming from Dvārakā. Devotee (7): And the gopīs also assembled there? *Prabhupāda: The gopīs got the information that Kṛṣṇa is coming from Dvārakā, so from Vṛndāvana they went to see Him. And when Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī met, that Rādhārāṇī lamented that Kṛṣṇa*-He was the same Kṛṣṇa and the same Rādhārāṇī-so "this is not a good meeting place. So, if You come to Vṛndāvana, then I shall be happy." So it is inviting Kṛṣṇa to Vṛndāvana. That is the feeling of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Ratha-yātrā. He is inviting Kṛṣṇa to Vṛndāvana. So in Jagannātha Purī still the same feelings are there. Kṛṣṇa, Jagannātha, from the temple goes to Guṇḍicā. So, Lakṣmī is angry that "Kṛṣṇa is leaving me, He has gone to Vṛndāvana." So she was, she is punishing. That is called Herā-pañcamī. Punishing the servants of Kṛṣṇa. The maidservants of Lakṣmī chastising them, threatened them, "Why without permission?" So they, out of very fearful condition, offering their respect to Lakṣmī, "Mother, you don't be sorry (indistinct), we are (indistinct)." So this, this is the play performed, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu associates they saw, and they enjoyed very much when the maidservant of Lakṣmī was slapping the servant of Viṣṇu. That is mentioned Caitanya-caritāmṛta. All the servants arrested, brought before Lakṣmī, and they are punished. But they came to invite Kṛṣṇa, Rādhārāṇī and other gopīs. And actually they do not go at that time. But this Ratha-yātrā ceremony means Kṛṣṇa is coming from Dvārakā to Kurukṣetra. This is the history of Ratha-yātrā. Devotee (5): Do they have any temples of Lord Jagannātha there? They have any temples of Lord Jagannātha in Kurukṣetra? Prabhupāda: No. Jagannātha, that is another history. King Indradyumna, he wanted to establish a temple of that incidence, and that the Deities while being carved would remain unfinished. So, he was very impatient to establish, so he established the unfinished Deity. That is Jagannātha. Devotee (7): The nondevotees cannot understand... Prabhupāda: They are being carved, Kṛṣṇa's wood form, but he was so impatient, he said "Whatever is done now, establish." It is said that Viśvakarmā was enquiring. So the term was, Viśvakarmā said that "Unless I finish, don't open the door." So this king, he went impatiently, and calling out whether he is finished. Then he forced, forcibly opened the door, and it was unfinished. So he said "Never mind, (indistinct)." Unfinished Kṛṣṇa (indistinct). So Kṛṣṇa, finished or unfinished, is Kṛṣṇa. That is omnipotency. That is Jagannātha form, (indistinct) doesn't matter finished or unfinished. (end) *Morning Walk-*-May 25, 1976, Honolulu Prabhupāda: ...of the mind of God. And it is delivered (indistinct) False mind is delivered (indistinct) Devotee: You made the statement in your purport that the moon is giving life to the vegetation on this planet. So how it can be a desert? Prabhupāda: That I have just said. They cannot talk about moon. That means they did not go. That is now clear. [break] ...has answered my question why Monday first, er, Sunday first and Saturday last? All over the world, in India also, Sunday, er, Monday first, Sunday first, Monday second. Ask your scientist friend why this arrangement, Sunday first, Monday second, Saturday last? We have concluded that it will take seven months to reach the moon planet at the speed of eighteen thousand miles per hour. But they're going in four days. (everyone laughs) Just see how bluffing. Hari-śauri: But they don't calculate the moon to be so far away. Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Hari-śauri: We did that calculation on the basis of 95,000,000 miles, which is about 2,000,000 miles from what the distance we get from the Bhāgavatam, combined with 93,000,000 miles... *Prabhupāda: But they say (sic:) ninety*-three miles. Sun is (sic:) ninety-three miles away. Hari-śauri: But we don't say that. Prabhupāda: No, no. We say also. Hari-śauri: What? 93,000,000? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Oh? Prabhupāda: Four billion is the..., what is called? Devotee: Diameter of the universe. Prabhupāda: Diameter of the universe. Sun is almost in the middle. Hari-śauri: So what is that distance that is given in the Bhāgavatam, then? It says 100,000 yojanas. Prabhupāda: I don't think that is.... Moon that is far away from the sun, 1,600,000. (indistinct) fire in the sea, varuṇāgni. (indistinct) You know there is sometimes fire in the sea? Devotee: In what way? Volcano? Like that? Prabhupāda: Volcano eruption. Is there any technical term? Varuṇāgni. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: You mean like when there's an eruption from below? Say when an island's formed, or... Prabhupāda: It is called varuṇāgni, fire in the water. Hari-śauri: Would you say some eruptions from below the earth's crust comes up, and then, er, all the gases underneath push the land up above the water? *Prabhupāda: There is fire within the earth, just as there is fire within the stomach*-fire. That helps digestion. In the Ayurvedic śāstra, when one does not feel an appetite, it is called agni-māṁdya (indistinct), rest and (indistinct) of the fire. Devotee: How can the fire within the stomach be increased? Prabhupāda: You know everything? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Hari-śauri: He said that by taking cold milk, that dampens the fire. I thought that was what we said. That's what I was always told. Devotee: Certain foods are cooling to the stomach. *Prabhupāda: Appetite is increased on account of the fire. The fire creates different secretions: blood. This is a big machine. It is mentioned in Bhagavad*-gītā, yantra. How this yantra is working? Electricity, everything, air. Devotee: Are persons who are trying to cut down appetite, they should eat cool foods? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: Persons who are trying to eat less and less for spiritual life, they should... *Prabhupāda: No, less is not spiritual. Whatever you want to eat, your food must be.... Machine is going on by the order of God. It is not after your order. But if you violate laws, then it is disturbed. The more that the fire is disturbed, oblations to the fire-svāhā*-that is eaten by God. (indistinct) Grains are offered, fruits are offered, in the fire yajña. It is through the fire, so as the part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, we have got little fire, we eat through that. In the fire you put tons of grains, tons of ghee-everything will be consumed. Similarly, if the fire is there, whatever you eat... Hari-śauri: Whatever is there in the universal form is found in small quantity in the bodies that the living entities get. Prabhupāda: They are small universe. There is word, cha ache brahmāṇḍe, ta ache i bandhe.(?) The arrangement what is there, universally, the same as in the smallest entity (indistinct). Hari-śauri: So many completes coming from the whole. Prabhupāda: Drop of water, the chemical composition is the same as big ocean. (airplane flying overhead) ...feet, they say. Devotee: About 35,000 feet up. Just under seven miles. Prabhupāda: Wants to go against the current. That is their sporting. There is an example is given by Tulasī dāsa. Baijad gajarāja(?)(indistinct) A small fish, it will go against the current, and if you put one elephant, he cannot, he'll be washed away. Why the fish, the small fish can go against the current and the elephant is washed out? Because that fish is under the shelter of the ocean; the elephant is foreigner. This is example. So one who takes shelter of the Supreme, he can do anything. Otherwise he'll be washed away. Hari-śauri: That's a good example. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhaijad gajarāja(?) (indistinct) Gajarāja means the king of elephants, he'll be washed away. But a small fish will go against the current. Hari-śauri: Is that from the Eighth Canto? Prabhupāda: No. It is from Tulasī dāsa. *Hari-śauri: Oh. Like it says in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, if you have the mercy of Lord Caitanya, a big thing becomes easy, but if you don't have His mercy, then a small thing becomes difficult. Devotee: [break] ...the universe was created five to ten billion years ago. Do we agree with their proposition, or...? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: They say that this universe was created five to ten billion years ago. Do we agree with that proposition, or...? Prabhupāda: Where it was before? (indistinct) Or gas? Devotee: Well, they basically have two theories. Either the "Big Bang" theory... Prabhupāda: Theories! Don't take theories. Nonsense. Theory is speculation, nonsense. (laughter) *Hari-śauri: I was just reading last night in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, how Lord Brahmā saw Kṛṣṇa produce hundreds and millions of universes and Lord Brahmās and cowherdboys and cows and calves from His body, and then they entered back into His body within a moment. (laughs) It's going to be a little difficult for these scientists to appreciate the actual creative potency. Prabhupāda: Because he thinks Kṛṣṇa is like him, but He's busier (indistinct). It is said this water is the semina of Kṛṣṇa. So they will say, "How you can...? So much semina?" Devotee (2): Well there are some theories where they think the universe was started from a big lake. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the lake came? Devotee (2): Well, actually they say that that's not so important. Prabhupāda: So your word is also not important. "That is not important. His word is important." Do you see the point? Whatever he'll say, that is important. So anyone can say something that is very important. Devotee (3): That is to say that to understand the universe may be difficult. So therefore then they try to explain... Prabhupāda: If you can stop, don't talk. "Why you are talking like nonsense?" If it is difficult, accept it; don't talk. Take difficult things and talk nonsense. Devotee (3): Because they all have a yearning to want to know these things. They all have a yearning to want to know these things about the mystery of the universe. Prabhupāda: Yes. But you know from the proper person. As you are very much eager to teach us, similarly, you learn; you can teach. Why do you talk nonsense without learning? You are scientist. You have to teach me. But from which scientist you have learned? So anyone can say something nonsense and become a teacher? Not teacher, but cheater. Devotee (3): They have many persons that they accept as authorities. Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee (3): They have many persons that they accept as authorities. Prabhupāda: They have many fools? Maybe like you? *Devotee (3): (laughs) Yes, I admit, I am the biggest fool. But they accept some people*-just like Isaac Newton. They accept him as a great authority. *Devotee (4): Perhaps it's a speculation*-I'm not certain. But in the Bhagavad-gītā it describes that lust is also sometimes like a fire. Practically one experiences that the heat in the body, the lusty desires increases heat within the body. So is there any correlation between fire within the body and the mode of passion? Prabhupāda: Yes. Passion is there. Just like fire, if you fan it, it blazes more. Similarly, with passion, the fire is more powerful. Devotee (4): Then the passion is like the fuel. Prabhupāda: Lust is sometimes described as fire, kāmāgni. Heart burns, the lusty desire burns. *Devotee (4): What about tamo*-guṇa? Does tamo-guṇa have a relationship with the body? *Prabhupāda: Tamo*-guṇa is laziness. It is ass. Neither fire. Ignorance. Civilized man, they're working, making some material arrangement nice. That is mode of passion. But the uncivilized, he doesn't want to work. Just like this Hawaii was under the Hawaiians' control, they could not do anything. Ignorant, lazy. Tamo-guṇa, darkness, is no work, no reason. Simply like animals, sex-life. And rajo-guṇa, there is activity to create material facilities. And sattva-guṇa, "Why you are working? What is the aim of my life?" That is sattva-guṇa. Devotee (3): So it's better to be in the mode of passion than the mode of ignorance? *Prabhupāda: Eh? No. We have to come to the mode of goodness. That is wanted. Neither passion nor ignorance. But passion is better than ignorance. That is comparative. But best quality in this material world is goodness. When knowledge is sufficient. And beyond that, śuddha*-sattva. Here in this material world even goodness is disturbed sometimes by passion and ignorance. But the platform where no more disturbance by all these three qualities, that is śuddha-sattva. That is spiritual. Devotees are expected to remain on that platform, śuddha-sattva, pure goodness. Then they will not be disturbed by these three qualities. Devotee (4): In the mode of ignorance, if he wishes to come to the platform of the mode of goodness, does he have to pass through the mode of passion to get to the mode of goodness? Or can you go directly from the mode of ignorance to the mode of goodness? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You can instantly go to the platform of pure goodness. (end) *Morning Walk-*-May 26, 1976, Honolulu Prabhupāda: ...speaking karmī and bhakta. Devotee (1): The bhakta has no desires to fulfill, whereas the karmī has unlimited desires to fulfill. Devotee (2): The bhakta desires to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, and the karmī is interested in satisfying himself, gratification of the senses. Prabhupāda: Karmī is also working and bhakta is also working. Then what is the difference? Hari-śauri: One is working for his own sense satisfaction and the other is working for the sense satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): Mentality? Devotee (3): The devotee is peaceful, ever peaceful. Prabhupāda: Karmī.... Just like, I began this Kṛṣṇa consciousness business with forty rupees, eh, in New York. Now, say within eight or ten years we have got forty crores. What is the karmī who started his business with forty rupees and within ten years, eight years, has got forty crores? Devotee (3): Therefore the difference is the karmī's not successful. Prabhupāda: A bhakta is never unsuccessful. Devotee (2): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmī.... Just like this house you have got. For a karmī to invest so much money, it will takes fifty years. We got this by donation. (laughter) Hari-śauri: Nobody's going to come up to a karmī and give him six hundred thousand. Prabhupāda: So after $600,000 for a karmī it will take six hundred years. (laughter) For a bhakta somebody comes, "Take it." (laughter) Devotee (1): Just like we all have so many watches. You'll notice everyone in our society has watches. Prabhupāda: They haven't got, karmīs? Devotee (1): Some of them do. Prabhupāda: What is the idea? You are asking question? Without have watches? We can live without watches? What is the idea? Devotee (1): Well they're..., usually they'll say we're.... If we are supposed to be spiritualists, then why do we have so many cars, why do we have so many watches, why do we have so many different things that they can see are there within the temple? *Prabhupāda: Yes. We acquire them without any effort. We are not after these things. But Kṛṣṇa sends, we take*-so many cars, so many watches, so many houses for propaganding Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why shall I be greedy? Devotee (1): Simply we are preaching and everything comes. *Prabhupāda: Everything necessary. Whatever is necessary will come. Kṛṣṇa has supplied. For us there is no such distinction as "material" and "spiritual." Because this material, so*-called material, that is God's creation. When it is used for God, that is spiritual. Who has created this tree? You have created? Man has created this tree? Who has created? Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: So when it is used for Kṛṣṇa.... Just like these rascals, they do not know. They wanted to use it for themselves. It is ugly, no fruit. We see near Bombay, they have got so many coconuts. How beautiful it is with fruits and leaves. Because we use it for Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct) "Oh, they have got fear(?). The coconuts will fall down on your head." (everyone laughs) And they make it ugly. They kill children, but we, we're training children how they're offering obeisances. We do not kill. We beg them Kṛṣṇa conscious. So our activity all spiritual. [break] ...afraid of population. We say "Create any number of population, but make them Kṛṣṇa conscious." That is our restriction, that if you cannot make your children Kṛṣṇa conscious, then don't beget. And if you can do that, then hundred children can be got. Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum. This is our.... We say that if you cannot beget Kṛṣṇa conscious child, don't become father and mo.... And if you can produce Kṛṣṇa conscious children, then become father and mother hundreds of children. Hari-śauri: The karmīs are always in anxiety about something or other. Prabhupāda: Ha? Hari-śauri: The karmīs, they're always fearing something. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): They think that if the population increases at the rate that it's going now... Prabhupāda: Well, whatever they think, we say increase any number of population, but make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our program. We are not afraid of population. They are rascals. They're thinking that they feed people. We don't think that. We know Kṛṣṇa is feeding. But if he's a rascal, we don't want. We don't want to feed the rascals, we want feed the devotees. Devotee (3): If the population increases at the rate it is now... Prabhupāda: Let them increase. We don't care for it. We can maintain any number of population. Let them come and become Kṛṣṇa conscious. We're not afraid. Hari-śauri: It appears from the Kṛṣṇa book that there were many billions of people more on this planet when Kṛṣṇa was here than there is now. And they had no problems then. Prabhupāda: Not only that, we have got from history. They were begetting hundreds of children. There was no scarcity of food. And who is begetting now one hundred children? Ha? One or two or at utmost.... Utmost eight, ten. Wrong theory, population increasing. Rascal's theory. Hari-śauri: It's just that they don't know how to manage nicely. Prabhupāda: Ha? Hari-śauri: They don't know how to manage nicely. *Prabhupāda: There's so many, so much land vacant all over the world*-Australia, Africa, South America. Devotee (3): Why would someone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious have a hundred children? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (3): Why would someone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious have one hundred children? For example, why would someone like Dhṛtarāṣṭra, who is not particularly Kṛṣṇa conscious...? Prabhupāda: Oh, he was Kṛṣṇa conscious. In those days everyone was Kṛṣṇa conscious. [break] Devotee (2): There's only a certain amount of grain. There's only a certain amount of water. So... Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): There's some theories, where they think that there's only a certain amount of grains... Prabhupāda: Their theories we don't accept. There's so much water. Devotee (2): But, therefore, if they don't, if you don't work to conserve it, then everyone will starve. Prabhupāda: After all, you produce it, then conserve. These rascals, do they produce water? Devotee (2): No. Prabhupāda: Why he's anxious to conserve it? It is not his production. That is rascaldom. Ha. He has taken from some other sources, and he wants to conserve it. He does not think that "I did not produce it. It has come to me." Hari-śauri: Well they don't know how it's produced. So what's there they're gonna have to save, because they're not certain that there'll be any more supply. Prabhupāda: No. The sense is that if I'm not produced, then even if I conserve the proper..., the supply may be stopped. Because it is, there is no control over, of me. Suppose you have got some water. How long it will be conserved? Ha? The water supply is stopped. Now suppose it's the ocean. There's enough water, but if Kṛṣṇa desires, it will be dried up. Then, where you will get water? So what is the meaning of their such conserving? Devotee (3): Right. Prabhupāda: Enormous. Why should we bother about conserving? We should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our business. The child is born; immediately there is milk in the breasts of the mother. And one minute before, there is no milk. There is no milk. Just the child is born, immediately. Who supplies the milk? He does not see that eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān, that one Supreme is supplying all the necessities of the others. So our duty is only to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Other things will be supplied by Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (4): The example that if God is supplying, then why doesn't He supply the underprivileged countries? Just like in some places like India people are starving. So why doesn't He supply places like that? Prabhupāda: Who says India is starving? You are saying. I'm Indian, I don't starve. You are false propaganda, "India's starving." Devotee (4): Bangladesh they... Devotee (3): I was in Bangladesh also; they're not starving. Prabhupāda: No one is starving. This is all propaganda. This propaganda.... You know in your country there are so many foundations. There is so many false organizations. They're under the name of India, they draw the money and take it. I've seen it. They have got arrangement with the trustees of the fund, and with some propaganda they draw money, and then they divide, the trustees and the organization. That's all. I've seen. Devotee (1): Places like Africa, such as Biafra, where they have... Prabhupāda: There are countries, there is, they are not opulent or affluent as you are. But that doesn't mean they're starving. Hari-śauri: Well, they show so many places of children with malnutrition, and they say that so many thousands of people are dying every week in certain areas... *Prabhupāda: You have got your..., so many hippies are malnutrition. You have got enough food right there*-malnutrition. What is this? Another... Hari-śauri: That's not actually a very good argument of theirs anyway, because here in America they were found to be dumping excess grains in the ocean, excess milk they give to the pig farms, like that. Prabhupāda: Mismanagement. This, of course nature's way, sometimes something is produced in large quantities, sometimes less quantity. Therefore the arrangement should be where there is less quantity, the large country with production will be distributed. But they'll throw into the ocean. Still, they will not supply to the country where there is less production. Devotee (4): It would seem that if money was not the means of exchange, this would not go on. Because then they would trade even excess food for other things that they required. Devotee (5): They limit the supply so they can sell things for higher prices. Prabhupāda: No, here the American policy, the Western policy, that if the people get easily food, they'll not come to work in the industry. That is their policy. If they get cheap food, then they won't work. That is human nature. Devotee (5): That is very interesting. Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee (5): That's very interesting. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they want to keep them starving or in want, so they'll come and produce and make the capitalists rich. This is the system. [break] ...idea, but... Devotee (5): It's (indistinct). Prabhupāda: I think in here, in Hawaii, they set fire to the huts. Poor beggars, they are living in cottages, the government set fire so that they may be without home and come to work. Do you know that? Yes? You know that? Devotee (5): No. Prabhupāda: In Hawaii? Devotee (5): They seem to let people live in these buildings, boxes. They don't want to let people live on the land. Devotee (2): When the government comes they may have so many health rules and regulations that if someone has a little hut, they will not let them stay there. Prabhupāda: Yes. They set fire. They set fire. "Let them become without home, then they will work for my shop." Devotee (2): There were so many mangoes here that were dropping to the ground, and they've gotten rid of some of the mango trees because they said that the people were stopping on the side of the road picking up the mangoes, it was causing a traffic hazard. Prabhupāda: Causing what is that? Devotee (2): They were causing traffic disturbance. So therefore they took away the mango trees. There were much more mango trees in Hawaii than there are now. Anyone could go and take mangoes off the ground. Prabhupāda: They don't want natural things. Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Chanting produce plain living, high thinking. The modern leaders, they don't want. Hari-śauri: We're a threat to the society. *Prabhupāda: Their policy is "High living and poor thinking." They live in skyscraper but don't care for where they are going to next life, as a cat and dog. Never mind. Now live in skyscraper. Poor thinking. High living, poor thinking (laughter). No, that "Now I am living in the skyscraper building on the twenty*-fifth story, and next life I'm going to be cockroaches here." (everyone laughs) They don't know that. He doesn't inquire, "Wherefrom the cockroaches coming?" (everyone laughs) He has got attachment for this twenty-fourth story, so, but he's working so that he'll become a cockroach. So Kṛṣṇa has given chance, "All right. You live in the twenty-fourth story as cockroach." And then you'll be again killed by some.... What is called? Devotee (5): Tenants. Exterminator? *Prabhupāda: Yea. That he does not know. Therefore poor thinking. He's thinking that "I shall perpetually live here." And when the death will come, "Get out!" (everyone laughs) "Become a cockroach." What he'll do? What he'll do? What power you have got? Nature is the same, that he'll come. Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. "Now everything finished. Get out and become a cockroach." How the scientists can stop it? Hari-śauri: You said that tree that stands in the back garden of the house we used to live in in Malibu, and that was the former owner of the house. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (5): ...are so dull that if you give them the proposition... *Prabhupāda: Therefore I say poor thinking. High living, poor thinking. He doesn't know what he's got. They think this motorcar and twenty*-fifth-story living will continue. Devotee (2): It's not even a peaceful condition to live by. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Supposing it is good. But he does not think "How I shall live in this way and next time I may be cats and dogs and cockroaches. What I'm doing for them?" Therefore they will evade: "No, no. There is no next life." Because it is horrible for them. Devotee (2): Most of the karmīs think that if you believe in the law of karma, it applies to you, but if you do not believe... Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): Most of them think that if you believe in the law of karma, it applies to you. Prabhupāda: When it is law, you believe or not believe, rascal, it will be effective, if it is a law. You believe, I don't believe, if I commit theft I'll not be punished. So what is your belief? As soon as you commit theft, you'll be punished. You believe or not believe. That is law. What is the value of your belief? Rascal may believe that "I'm not going to be old man. I shall remain young man." Believe or not believe, must become old man. What is the value of your belief? Trust no future. You believe or not believe, there is future. What is value of your belief? Where do you.... You have complete control? Here the law is "Keep to the right." You don't believe. Now "Why shall I keep to the right? I shall go to the left." Immediately you'll be punished. You have to believe. I'll do wrong way, see the result. Immediately there's ticket. So what is the value of your belief? The law is law. Ignorance is no excuse for law. You have committed something wrong, and in the court you're going to be punished. If you say the clerk, "Sir, I did not know that by committing this act how I shall be, I will have to be punished." That is not excuse. Your ignorance they do not believe; you must go. That is the law. It is called foolishness. "They believe," "I think," "It may be." This is science. This is their proposition: "It may be," "I think," "I believe." What is the value of this? And everywhere you'll find all these philosophers, scientists, and they'll talk like this, nonsense: "I believe," "It may be." Believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa. But he believes himself. You see? Kṛṣṇa says it is this. That he doesn't believe. But he has become more than Kṛṣṇa, he'll believe something is correct. This is his foolishness. Mūḍha. You believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa, who is worshiped by everyone. Hm? But you won't. You believe in your conviction, "I believe." So what you are? First consider in comparison to Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (6): Nothing. Prabhupāda: Still he believes his own conviction. Don't believe Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (6): Everyone feels he's the center of everything. Prabhupāda: But he's not. That is his another foolishness. Even in this state, I am not center. I cannot do whatever I like. I have to believe the law. There is law, and it's sanity. And if he says, "I am the center. I am the monarch of all I survey," (everyone laughs) that is foolishness. He believes in his foolishness, that's all. If I claim, "I am the monarch of Hawaii," is that belief correct? "I am the center of everything. I am moving this." And this rascal's meditation is like this: "I am moving the sun. I am moving the moon." The meditation. Hari-śauri: I once had a boy tell me on the street, he said, he said, "Yes, I am the, I am the center of the universe." He said we're the center... Prabhupāda: This belief, not nonsense belief? Mad man's belief? Devotee (6): People say, "Oh it's my life. This is my life, my..." Prabhupāda: ...people in general, they're all rascals. Don't think lot of people are one. Mūḍhas. Hari-śauri: When someone moves to another country, then it's very natural that they go and find out from their authorities what the laws of the country are. Yet when they're here, they don't bother to find out what the natural laws are and how to act as a human being. They just disregard it. Prabhupāda: ...think he must know how things are going on. That is knowledge. "I have created heaven. I am the center. Whatever I believe, that's all right." There's so many rascal philosophers. Everyone is thinking "I am the..." And their different views. Hari-śauri: If they're mentally satisfied, they think that's the ultimate. Prabhupāda: [break] ...there's no such thing. "I believe." Immediately.... What Kṛṣṇa says, that's true. That is our movement. Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What I believe? I'm a nonsense. I am.... I have got four defects in my life: illusion, mistake, cheating, insufficiency. What is the meaning of my belief? A cheater saying, "I believe," I have to accept if I know that he's a cheat? [break] ...the public, by misleading them they have gone to moon. *Devotee: (tape static*-inaudible) Prabhupāda: (inaudible) ...some tickets for going to moon. What they are doing with the tickets? You know that Pan American sold tickets for going to moon? You do not know? (laughs) They sold tickets, because in your country, you have got lot of money, any kind of cheating can draw money. (laughs) Devotee (6): They're selling tickets to go to the moon? Prabhupāda: Not now. They sold in the beginning. They're so hopeful now that "We shall go to the moon." Some family (inaudible) "Oh, scientific advancement. Yes, they go to the moon. So I have got money. Why not purchase a ticket so I can go to the moon?" There are many persons in your country who can very easily pay $50,000 for purchasing tickets for going to the moon planet. Hari-śauri: It's like Rāvaṇa's promise of being able to go to the heavenly planets by climbing up the staircase. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...believed in the words of śāstra. Even I am not scientist, still I shall.... It is all childish. And it has proved childish. I do not say that I am better than the scientists. No. But on the words of śāstra, I say this is childish. They'll never be able to go to the moon. [break] The Americans who are here, mostly they are tourists. They're not residents. Devotee (6): Some of them are retired, I believe. Prabhupāda: Some, they're some. Otherwise they are tourists. Devotee (5): Yes. [break] (end) *Morning Walk-*-May 27, 1976, Honolulu *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-yoniṣu. All kinds of forms of life, 8,400,000 different forms of life. So "The material nature is the mother and I am the seed-giving father." Why they do not accept this philosophy? And everything is going on. Just like in the family the mother is there and the father is there. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the father, and material nature is mother, and we are all sons. If we accept this simple philosophy, everything will be all right. Why they do not accept this philosophy, so many rascal philosophers? This simple philosophy. And this is a fact. What is this body? This body is this earth. "Dust thou art, dust thou beest." So the mother is this material nature. I've got this body. And the father, He is Kṛṣṇa, or God. What is wrong in accepting this philosophy? If this simple philosophy is accepted, the whole world will be happy. But they'll not accept it. These rascals will come, and speculate rascal philosophy. (laughing) With this simple philosophy... United Nations is there. Why do they not accept this simple philosophy? If God is the supreme father and in every religion they accept that, at least the Christian religion accept that supreme father, God, and the material nature is mother. And we are all sons. Not only human beings, every living being, even the dogs. This is philosophy, real philosophy. Is it all right? Devotee (1): The philosophy now is that God is dead. Prabhupāda: Ha? Father may be dead, but that does not mean the sons are also dead. Father is dead. This father is not dead. That is another rascaldom. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People might say the philosophy is very good theoretically, but practically speaking, people... Prabhupāda: Why not practical? Why not practical? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People are very greedy in this material world. Prabhupāda: Then with these greedy, rascal, rogue, then how you can be happy? Ha? Needs to be punished only. Hari-śauri: Therefore Marx said that that greed could be got rid of if everybody worked for the state. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: If everybody pooled their resources. Prabhupāda: Why state? Hari-śauri: Well, the state is the ultimate. Prabhupāda: Take the whole world. You have got the United Nation; why you are busy about the state? Hari-śauri: Well, his idea was that communism should be spread everywhere. Prabhupāda: This is communism. First of all, you accept one father, or the whole world is father's property, and every living being has a right to enjoy the father's property. Why you are thinking this portion is Russia, this portion is American? It is father's property. So if there is rush in China or India, why not allow them to come to Russia or America? "No. That is my property." What is this philosophy? A father's property, everyone has got right to enjoy the father's property. Can this rascal Marx propose communism on this basis? The animals should be slaughtered. Do the father like that if this son is useless, it cannot do any service, so another big son says, "I'll finish him"? The father will like that? So where is that communism? All selfish motive. That's all. Rascal. And devils citing scripture, philosophy. Rascal citing philosophy. He's a rascal. Let him accept that God is... First of all his business is "No God." His only business is "No God." First of all, mother, father is not needed, that's all. Hari-śauri: Like that Comte we were doing... Prabhupāda: Everyone, all rascals are thinking like this. Hari-śauri: They were saying that God's existence is imaginary; man is reality, man is supreme. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because your..., you cannot... Just like our Alfred Ford, he never saw Henry Ford. Then why he says that "I'm the great*-grandson of Mr. Ford"? Ford is not there. But why he's claiming Ford's property? Where is Ford? The great-grandson is not expected to see the original establisher of the family. But if there is no philosophy, how they can, any philosophers, all meat-eaters, drunkards, (laughs) woman hunters, and they can be philosophers. (laughs) They're dogs, simply barking. That's all. Simply dogs. Devotee (1): They say that our philosophy is nice if we can get everyone to follow it, but we will never... Prabhupāda: Why shall I follow? Why shall I follow? You are limited. Why should I follow your philosophy? Devotee (1): They say that... *Prabhupāda: They say..., they can say all nonsense, but I have to say something. You accept God as the central point, then I accept you. Why you are making state? Then I'll say "I have got my state," then there is fight*-American, Russia. That's all. Devotee (2): People read these philosophies and they think that they will get knowledge. Prabhupāda: Knowledge means misguiding knowledge. That's all. That is not knowledge. That is going on. In the name of knowledge, all rascaldom is going on. That is the misfortune of the present world. In the name of knowledge, all rascal isms going. That's all. If we accept after all somebody else is the Supreme Lord, so He's the father. Why don't you accept that? What is the difficulty? Devotee (2): The difficulty is that they feel that there's no one that we have to answer to. Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee (2): They feel that there's actually no, there, there's no... First of all, there's no laws, there's no natural laws we have to follow. Prabhupāda: Hm. Then why you are dictating laws, philosophy? That is the (indistinct) no laws. Why you are dictating your laws, that we should be communistic, this will be capitalistic, this will be socialistic? Why you are dictating? Let there be no law, as the uncivilized man does. Hari-śauri: Well, there should be law, but that law is dictated by man. Prabhupāda: Ha? Hari-śauri: That law is decided by man in accordance with his... Prabhupāda: Man will dictate law according to his own convenience. Well what about the trees? They are also living entity. You are cutting the trees and making it ugly, because they have no voice to protest. So why man should be given the chance? Devotee (2): Most people think that if it's very confusing, and if their philosophy is very contradictory, then it's very profound. They think that if a philosophy is confusing... Prabhupāda: Jugglery. Devotee (2): ...or contradictory, then it is... Prabhupāda: The word is jugglery. The word is jugglery. If you present something with jugglery of words, "Oh, it is very deep thought." (laughter) Devotee (2): Because they could not understand it, they think that... Prabhupāda: Nobody understands it. Hari-śauri: Use some big words and don't make any clear points. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: (speaking something in a run*-on fashion, as a made-up very long word) (everyone laughs) Put some words. (repeats it again) Is there any meaning? (everyone laughs) You have some jugglery of words. (everyone laughs) (repeats in run-on fashion again) What is the meaning of those (repeats phrase)? Devotee (2): They will think that "Because I'm not very advanced I cannot understand their philosophy." Prabhupāda: They may think it, but my point is don't be misled by these rascals. (indistinct) Fix up your direction. Don't be misled by these rascals. (indistinct) What you have brought? [break] God is not dead. (indistinct) God is coming to kick you out and kill you. God is not dead. He'll come in due course of time and kill you. God is not dead; *he'll be dead. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. He's thinking God is dead... "Yes, yes, I'm coming. Whatever asset you've got, I'll take everything and make it killed. Then you'll understand what is God." These rascals say like that. Kṛṣṇa says, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham, "I'll take everything. Just wait a few years more. When you'll not be able to say God is dead, you are dead." Rascals. Hari-śauri: Like Volte. He was eating his own stool and urine before he died, and he was still insisting there is no God. Prabhupāda: So these rascals, they'll be taught a lesson at the time of death. God is not dead; you are dead. You simply wait to see how you are dead. We don't want to discuss all this nonsense philosophy, just to warn them that "You don't be misled by this rascalism." That is my point. Then who kills you? Who has killed your father? Just see. Who has killed your father and who will kill you? Just wait a few years more. Devotee (2): They say this is accident. This is philosophy. This is... Prabhupāda: Yes. That action was created by God. That accident was created by God. Hari-śauri: Also, a cartoon somebody put in the paper and it shows... Prabhupāda: They'll accept accident, but not God. Just see his intelligence. He'll accept accident, but not God. Devotee (2): Most of the philosophers who have this atheistic philosophy, most of them are trained... Prabhupāda: Therefore they are suffering. Why don't you see that? Some of them dying by eating their own stool? Devotee (2): Actually, at the end of his life, he (indistinct) some disease, and he went literally crazy. Prabhupāda: Disease already there. Old age is already there. That means God is there. They're being punished, but they are so shameless they'll not accept the truth. Same thing. The (indistinct), they're being punished every moment, every step, "No, God is not there." All right. Wait a few years more, God will show either you are dead or He's dead. (laughing) Hari-śauri: I saw this picture once that somebody had drawn. There's a man holding a sign saying "God is dead," and there's a big hand squashing him right on the floor, it's coming from the sky, it's squashing him on the floor, and his sign up on the side saying "God is dead." Devotee (3): They say that actually there never was any God, it's just a belief that man had. Devotee (2): ...revolutionary questions that you're asking because they never stop to ask... They say that you cannot accept any philosophy, why are they giving their philosophy? No one every thought to ask that question. Prabhupāda: Hm? Everyone is rascal. Therefore I say all rascals. They have no sense. If you want me to pose your philosophy, why shall I not impose my philosophy? I've got the same right. Why should I accept yours? Devotee (2): Philosophers are saying that there's no philosophy, but they're giving their philosophy. Prabhupāda: If there's no philosophy, why you rascal propose some philosophy? Stop talking. (everyone laughs) Devotee (3): No philosophy. Prabhupāda: That is better. That is better. There is no struggle. So why you trying to pose your philosophy? Devotee (3): Philosophers think they know what is best for everyone else, but they don't even know what is best for themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break]...presented by Sanātana Gosvāmī before Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Hari-śauri: Hm. Prabhupāda: "Everyone says that I am very learned man, but I am so learned that I do not even know what I am. I'm so learned." (Bengali) This is admission of foolishness. Hari-śauri: His first question was, "Tell... Please tell me who I am." Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know who he is, and he's philosophize. Calendar..., calendar? Is criticizing ladle? Hari-śauri: Oh, colander. Prabhupāda: Colander. Devotee (3): Full of holes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): Hole is used for straining, so many holes.... Prabhupāda: So many holes, and he's criticizing me, "Oh, you have got a hole. (Bengali) These rascal, they do not know whether he's this body or something other than body, and they're philosopher. The basic principle of knowledge is lacking, and they're philosopher. Cheater. Devotee (3): They say at the time of death they will learn a lesson, but if, when they go into a new body, they forget, how will it help them? Prabhupāda: Forgetful does not mean that they... Suppose this child, he's hurt, and when he'll be grown up he may forget, but that means... That does not mean that he was not hurt. Devotee (3): Hm. Devotee (2): [break] ...for devotees, then they have no right to claim that they are philosophers or scientists. Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad guṇāḥ. If one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious he has no knowledge. He's a rascal, immediately. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. This is the definition given by... If he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's immediately miscreant, rascal, and lowest of the mankind. [break] ...may say that he has passed M.A., Ph.D., D.A.C.(?) and he's a philosopher. But we..., our test is whether he's God conscious. If not, he's a rascal. That's all. Immediately. Hari-śauri: No good qualities. Prabhupāda: No. Reject immediately. Devotee (2): [break] ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that we actually don't believe that they're fools. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): I said our difficulty is that we don't actually believe that they're fools. Most people are thinking that the scientists do have knowledge. We don't fully believe that they are rascals. Prabhupāda: You do not believe because you are also fool, rascal. That means you're also rascal. Devotee (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: So you be intelligent. You're learning from your spiritual master. ...gurum eva abhigacchet. Therefore one must approach a guru to learn everything rightly. This is Vedic injunction. Tat tvaṁ puruṣam eva, ācāryopāsanam. Read Bhagavad*-gītā. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. Ācāryopāsanam. This process of knowledge is to worship ācārya. Who's got ācārya, he knows. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. Devotee (2): We're accused that when we take to some religious process, that it's a process of brainwashing. Prabhupāda: It's not a question of religious process. You must know things are there. Religion is... Religion is that, because religion means to know the real law. That is religion. Not, religion does not mean sentiment. Religion means to know the real law. That is religion. If you do not know the definition of religion, this is it. Religion means to know the real law, how this world is going on, what is the law. That is religion. Religion is not a sentiment. They have made it a kind of faith. You may have some faith, but the law is different. So faith, a dogmatic faith is not religion. To know the real law, this is definition of religion. ...sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you know that law, then everything is revealed to you. That is religion. Religion means not a blind rascal. Religion means he knows everything. That is religion. This is the Vedic injunction. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. Just like we are talking with so many philosophers. It does not mean that I'm scientist, philosopher, everything. No. We know one thing, Kṛṣṇa, immediately we can catch up what is the... Hari-śauri: It's very surprising to people how we have such a wide scope of knowledge. Prabhupāda: Immediately catch up, "Here is a rascal." Sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you simply know Kṛṣṇa, you know everything. That is religion. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People sometimes can't understand why we are not satisfied that someone has some religious sentiment, even though their knowledge of God may be wrong. Prabhupāda: Sentiment, there is... In your relationship with your friends and father and mother is sentiment. That is another thing. But you must know "He's my father," "He's my mother," "He's my son." Sentiment is there even in ordinary relationship. You cannot avoid sentiment. Just like we're dancing. That is also sentiment, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." That is sentiment. But that does not mean because he's dancing in sentiment, he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Sentiment must be there. That is ecstasy, enjoyment. But not blind sentiment. [break] ...you do not know, know from Kṛṣṇa. Anybody can say "I do not know who is my father." And if the real father says, "I'm your father, my son," then how he can prove? How he does not know? If he says, "No, I don't believe you that you are my father," then what is the..., what is evidence? He knows. The mother also says, "Yes, he's your father." " No, I don't believe." What is the evidence? The father is saying, "I'm father." The mother is saying, "Yes, he's your father." But the rascal is saying, "No, I don't believe it." Hari-śauri: You can't do anything... Prabhupāda: Just see his unfortunate position. What he will do? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They will want to know, though, how this will stop two countries from blowing each other up. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They will want to know how this knowledge that God is the father of everyone will stop these modern*-day nations from blowing each other up. Prabhupāda: That you do, and suffer(?). (in car) God is the father, and father's property is this whole world. We are all sons, beginning from Brahmā down to the ant, and father's property lets us enjoy equally. That's all. All questions are solved. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What to do with the greedy people in the world, though? Prabhupāda: Greedy because you are meant to..., because you don't recognize father and father's property, you have created the situation. Hari-śauri: Because they don't know who the proprietor is, they're thinking "I can take this for myself." *Prabhupāda: Therefore America has so much over*-production. Let the hungry men come here. Greediness is not allowed. Whatever... Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. This is śāstra. Everything belongs to God. Whatever He allots to you, you take it. In the family the father says, "My dear boy, take of this." That's all. Why should he claim more? The father knows how much he'll eat, and He'll give it. He's supplying the elephant his food, the ant his food. Elephant's not dying starvation. Why you are worried? You want to eat forty kilos. All right. Take it. The father is able to supply. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He's supplying everyone. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...not a practical solution. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the knowledge, real knowledge. Eight million, four hundred thousand forms of life, and the supreme father is supplying food to everyone. And each form millions, millions. You'll find millions of one type of fish within the water. And there are nine hundred thousand different forms of fishes. They are eating within this water. Who is supplying them food? We cannot imagine even what is the food there within the water. But there is. Otherwise, how they are living? They have no scarcity. Hari-śauri: Neither there's any overpopulation either. Prabhupāda: Neither. Overpopulation, the fish, they lay eggs hundreds and thousands at a time. You know that? There is not..., unlimited number of eggs they lay down. [break] ...say, "Your food is ready. Just little work." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. Just produce food grain. Everyone will be happy. But why they are producing motorcars only? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they can go to the market and get the food. So they can drive to the market. Prabhupāda: Why market? You can produce your food at home. Hari-śauri: They have so much land, and then they grow a crop that they don't need... Prabhupāda: I have estimated if land lying vacant, if they used for farming, producing food, ten times as many people can be fed. There is no question of scarcity. Your American government, "Oh, don't produce, don't produce, don't produce." If they'll produce more, "I'll throw it in the sea." Produce motorcar. Produce (indistinct), 1967 model. Don't produce foodgrains. This is government's position. Don't produce foodgrains, produce 1967 motorcar, so that there may be more and more accidents. Hari-śauri: They pay the farmers not to grow crops. Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct) There are so many people starving, they have no land to produce food. Therefore the Supreme Father has to be accepted. Hari-śauri: Just like when we were in Fiji, all they grow is sugarcane so they have to sell the sugarcane to get money to buy crops that they could have grown there in the first place. Prabhupāda: Yes, business. Why so much sugarcane? The islands of Hawaii, they grow more sugarcane. We have seen all the islands. Huge (indistinct). The sugarcane is required for manufacturing wine. [break] ...drink tea. He's much (indistinct) of sugar, and from molasses, they manufacture wine. Unnecessary things. Misadjustment and they're (indistinct). Hari-śauri: Even when they try to grow the grains, they can't guarantee it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: Like in Russia, they projected they would grow so much grains... Prabhupāda: Nature will punish them. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Nature is Lord's (indistinct) maintainer, he's observing, factually. (indistinct) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Excuse me. Just like, say, America takes up this idea, that God is the Supreme Father and... Prabhupāda: Therefore I say (indistinct) God in trust. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: We trust. Justice. Don't trust blindly. Try to understand what is God. That I am... Later on, I have not received any reply. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not yet. Prabhupāda: Yes. He, American people (indistinct) say, "In God we trust." That's very nice, but why you take this philosophy blindly? Find out who is God and why you should trust. That is intelligence. The slogan is nice, why don't you fight on this issue? The Kṛṣṇa Consciousness movement. You can fight on this issue. Intelligently, if we'll put (indistinct). We trust in God, but what is God? Eh? Hayagrīva? They like to trust in God. Then ask them what is God. They cannot reply. Hayagrīva: They would say the Christian conception of God. Prabhupāda: Any conception, God is not Christian, not Hindu, not... Hayagrīva: They would say, "God is the Almighty Power." Prabhupāda: That's all right. (end) *Morning Walk-*-May 28, 1976, Honolulu Prabhupāda: ...that the trees and plants, they have got life? Do they accept or not? Hari-śauri: Yes. They say they've recorded different types of living symptoms in plants and what have you. They see how plants react to different stimulus. And there's experiments that they actually react out of fear. They show symptoms of fear. Prabhupāda: So, they have soul or not? Hari-śauri: Well, they say that the human beings haven't got a soul, so what to speak of animals and plants. Prabhupāda: What do they mean by soul? *Hari-śauri: (laughs) They don't mean anything. They think it's all just chemical reaction. But nowadays they're doing more research into things like telepathy and what they call ESP, extra*-sensory perception. Rather than just put it down to basic chemical reactions, they're thinking that there's something on a more subtle platform. Prabhupāda: What is that platform? *Hari-śauri: It's what they call ESP, extra*-sensory perception, something that you can't see but it's still there, the influence of the mind over material objects. Devotee (1): They say that material objects are just like automobiles, dead, but they can't move without the influence of the spirit soul. So the human being or the trees and the jīvas were seeing that the body is moving, so many things are taking place. The point is that in the universe, wind is blowing, the ocean is moving... Prabhupāda: It is (inaudible). You are in small soul, and there is big soul, Supersoul. Similarly, as the soul is (inaudible). There must be soul. Similarly, this material combination (inaudible). Without Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, there is no actual (inaudible). Hari-śauri: Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu is the Supersoul of the universe. Prabhupāda: There is an ocean (inaudible) each planet, and in the Causal Ocean is Garbhodakaśāyī. [break] ...ocean, many planets and (inaudible) Devotee (1): Where? Underneath the water? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): You said that the different living entities in lower forms of life, they became those lower forms of life due to their work in the human form? Prabhupāda: Yes. A criminal is freed, but if he again commits criminal..., criminality, then again he's put into the jail, like that. (inaudible) ...his freedom, now make your choice. But if you misuse it, then again go.... māyāprāpte nivartante mṛtyuḥ saṁsāra vartmani. [break] ...go home back to Godhead. But if we do not take the chance, and misuse it, like animals, then again we go down. The process is to go back to home, back to Godhead, eternal life, blissful life. And other process is the cycle of birth and death in different species of life. So this human form of body is to make choice whether to continue the cycle of birth and death in different species of life, or you want to go home, back to Godhead. (Sanskrit) He's Kṛṣṇa conscious when he goes back to home, back to Godhead. (inaudible) species of life, according to karma, they're going to be fish. From fish, by nature's way, leads to the plants, then insect. In this way.... Then birds, then beasts, again human being. Again another birth. In this way they are.... bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. Similarly, after many, many births, when he comes to his senses.... "I have enjoyed very nice life. Now let me go back home..." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti... [Bg. 7.19]. Kṛṣṇa says, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Such mahātmā, great soul, who has accepted that Kṛṣṇa is everything, he is very, very rarely found. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu [Bg. 7.3]. After many, many millions. Devotee (2): When one takes to spiritual life, is it the result of material exhaustion, or is it simply the guru's mercy on him, and nothing else? *Prabhupāda: Two ways. One is called sādhana*-siddhi. One is called kṛpā-siddhi. What is your question? Devotee (2): If when one comes to spiritual life, is he coming because of material exhaustion, so much pain in the material world, so therefore he's searching? Prabhupāda: Voluntary. Devotee (2): Voluntary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Ah. Prabhupāda: When one is actually in service, then he comes to.... "So I have enjoyed. Now, no I don't want. Now I want Kṛṣṇa." That is voluntary. Devotee (2): But is it the guru? Does the guru give him that sense? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru is traveling all over the world, "Take this science." If one is fortunate he can take. Devotee (3): Those persons who are atheistic, they say that God is created out of a necessity, that people have a necessity to have their father image, so therefore they create religion. This is their basic philosophy, that man creates his own religion. He creates it out of necessity. He needs a father image, so therefore he creates the idea of God. Prabhupāda: Created? What is that? Devotee (3): No. They feel that we have created, man has created the idea of God out of necessity. Devotee (4): The atheists are saying that man needs God although there is no God. They are insecure in this world. Prabhupāda: What is God? Devotee (3): They feel basically that it's an idea. God is an idea. Prabhupāda: Why it is idea? Explain. What for this idea? Why this idea is necessary? Devotee (1): Basically I think because in the Western countries there's no conception of God. Prabhupāda: They.... Those who have no conception, that is another thing. But those who talk of God, that there is God or there is no God, what is the conception of God? That is.... Why do they say there is no God? Why do they say there is God? Somebody accept there is God. Somebody does not accept. So, there are two causes. Hari-śauri: The basic principle is that God is there, so you either accept or reject Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) One is doubtful or one is convinced. God is there. One is doubtful, he says "There is no God." My question is why the question of God is there? Devotee (1): General consensus is that when one is in need of God, then they accept God. They don't think that out of knowledge... Prabhupāda: Therefore I am asking what is the conception, why they need, why they do not need. First of all describe food. There is some idea, that food is like this. Then the question of food. If there is no need of food, then why is this food question? Devotee (1): Just like the child wants to be protected by the parent, they're thinking that..., therefore people are feeling that they want to be protected by God. The child is always seeking protection from the parent. Prabhupāda: There is necessity of God. Just like the child, there is necessity of the parents, a parent is there. Similarly, you feel necessity of God, God is there. Feeling the necessity of parent, the parents are there. Similarly, if you feel necessity of God, then God is there. Devotee (1): They say that because people are feeling this necessity, it is a crutch. Prabhupāda: No, no. Necessity means there is. Otherwise why necessity? When you feel hungry, the necessity of food, food is there. The necessity of light, the sun is there. Devotee (4): Do you mean, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in order to conceive of something, a thing must be there? Prabhupāda: There is no "conceive." Necessity. You require it. Just like when you're hungry you require food. Food is there. The eyes want to see; therefore the object of seeing is there. The hand wants to touch, so the object of touching is there. The nose wants to smell: the object of smell is there. So as soon as you feel necessity, the thing is there. Hari-śauri: And it's there even if you don't feel the necessity. Prabhupāda: Ha? Hari-śauri: It's there even if you don't feel the necessity. Prabhupāda: That is another tradition. First of all, as soon as you feel necessity, the object is there. Devotee (4): They say that necessity should not be God, but that it should be transferred to man. Prabhupāda: I am not talking of God. I say as soon as you feel necessity, the object is there. Devotee (5): That necessity is our mistake. That is our insecurity. Prabhupāda: So.... [break] ...that is mistake, then you are rascal, that's all. Mistake is committed by rascal. So you are rascal. If you commit mistake then you are rascal. Then don't talk, stop talking. (everyone laughs) Who is going to hear a rascal? (indistinct) [break] ...he is hungry, there is no necessity of food? Who's that rascal that says "No, there is no necessity of food"? He's feeling hungry, he wants to eat something, and if he says "No, there is no necessity of food," then is he not rascal? And if you say "Now we are feeling the necessity of food, but that is my mistake," is that answer? Devotee (1): They're feeling that some people have the necessity for God, but actually... Prabhupāda: Why? That is the question. Why some people have? That means some people intelligent, some people rascals. That's all. This is wrong. Devotee (1): The question is, why some people are feeling a necessity for God? That is the question they ask. Prabhupāda: That is the difference between rascal and intelligent. Just like in Hawaii Island, when the rascals were living, they did not feel the necessity of skyscraper. When intelligent Americans came, they feel the necessity. That is the difference. (everyone laughs) Is that all right? Devotee (1): Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Necessity is the mother of invention. That is an English proverb. Is it not? So unless you feel necessity, you are rascal. Hari-śauri: Well, taking that the other way... Prabhupāda: Dull matter. Dull matter. It has no necessity. It is dull matter. And as soon as you have got life, there is necessity. Without feeling necessity means dullness. Just like these Hawaiians, very nice. They did not think the necessity of the skyscraper, motorcar.... But when it was inhabited by the Americans, (indistinct) That is the difference between advanced and not advanced. Devotee (1): Can one say that necessity for eating, sleeping, mating and defending is animal life? The necessity for God is advanced life? Prabhupāda: Certainly. Necessity means more you become advanced, the more necessity. Necessity mother of invention. Advancement, they are manufacturing so many things. There is no necessity of car, but people are advanced, they are inventing: "Now comfortably I shall..." So necessity means advanced life. No necessity means dull life. That's all. Devotee (1): The atheists fear that they've put the necessity on the wrong object. *Prabhupāda: That means they're rascals. If there is no necessity, that means dull life, dull brain. The madman will think there is no necessity of clothing: "I can remain naked." And actually remains. He's a madman. And a sensible man, he requires dress, nice dress, first*-class dress. So this is the difference between intelligent and dull. Dull has no necessity. Intelligent has necessity. Devotee (4): He has necessity for God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu [Bg. 7.3]. Out of millions and millions people one has the necessity for Kṛṣṇa. [break] Material scientists, they are creating necessities, television, and they are thinking advanced. What is the use of television? There is no use. But this is advanced civilization. Hari-śauri: In relative terms. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless there is necessity, what is the advancement? There is dull matter. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. Apareyam. The dull matter is inferior energy. And the anya*-prakṛti, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho, the living entities, they have got necessities. Dull matter, there are no necessities. The more one is dull, his necessities are less. And those who are advanced, his necessities begin. Hari-śauri: Well, they use.... They argue that, say like in India, where there's no great material development... Prabhupāda: Then we shall judge the quality of necessity. That is another thing. First of all necessities, then quality. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: First of all we have to understand that one who has no necessity, he's in the lowest status. One who has got necessity, he is in higher status. Hari-śauri: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: Then higher, higher, higher, higher*-where's the higher status? When you necessitate Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda*-viraheṇa me. That necessity, that without Govinda I'm feeling everything vacant. That is necessity. That makes it finer (indistinct). *Devotee (1): Is this the anna*-maya, prāṇa-maya, mano-maya, like that? *Prabhupāda: There are so many stages. Here is the highest status. Govinda*-viraheṇa me. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa. "For want of Govinda, I am thinking one moment as twelve years." Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam. "I'm crying like torrents of rain from my eyes." This is the highest necessity. This is also necessity. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛ.... Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvam. "I don't see anything. Everything is vacant." And that we have experience. If somebody whom you love very much, he dies, you think, "I don't want anything. World is vacant." I've no necessity but Kṛṣṇa. This is also necessity. So we have to see first of all necessity, then quality of necessity. This is .... There is no necessity means dull matter. Similarly, when there is no necessity of God, one is in the lowest stage of life, narādhama, animal, less than animal, narādhama, at least, lowest of mankind. If he does not feel the necessity of God, that means lowest of mankind. Necessity of Caitanya Mahāprabhu also.... Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣay... A Vaiṣṇava says that "I have no more necessity." But he has no more necessity of this false necessities, material world. Hari-śauri: Anarthas. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: Anarthas. *Prabhupāda: Anartha. [break] ...they stop here. No more this material necessities. But he does not know that he cannot live without necessities. That they do not know. They simply beget these false necessities. Just like disease. I do not want disease, but that does not mean I do not want health. (everyone laughs) So these rascals, they are thinking that "We do not want anymore this material world, brahma satyaṁ jagat..." But Vaiṣṇava says "No, you must have the real thing, then you can cease from this unreal necessities. Otherwise after living for some time in brahma satya, then you'll come, "Oh, this is useless. I don't enjoy. Let me go again to open hospital, school, engage in something politics, no work..." But you cannot do. Āruhya kṛccheṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ. We are living entities. We require engagement, necessities. So give up necessities means these rascal necessities. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He's sannyāsī, He has no necessity. Why He's crying for Govinda? He has given up the whole world, sannyāsī. And why He's crying for Govinda? That is real necessity. Govinda*-viraheṇa me. Govinda necessity. The necessity is Govinda is not alone. There again life, again Vṛndāvana, again gopīs, again dancing, again eating, again everything. That necessity. Devotee (1): As a necessity, this is a symptom of weakness... Prabhupāda: Rascal, this weakness..., you are already necessity of so many things. Make all the necessities zero. At last we at least feel necessity of a woman. (laughing) That you cannot avoid. And then you'll be punished with shoes. (laughing) When you'll become a servant of woman, then you, "No, what is the necessity?" Become thief, you'll become rascal, rogue, you'll be beaten by shoes, and everything is gone. Now these are your necessities. Hippies, they have left no necessities, but the woman is there. (laughing) They have necessities there. Nature is so powerful you'll have to feel this necessity, and with this necessity you'll require so many necessities. (Sanskrit) They're talking like madmen. What the madman does not talk, and what the goat does not eat? (laughing) Means rascals. Hari-śauri: It boils down to this question of independence. Prabhupāda: Ha? Hari-śauri: They all want to be independent, but there's no chance. Devotee (4): [break] ...in the kingdom of God, then he can become independent. *Prabhupāda: The idea of God is not for everyone. Only for the brāhmaṇas. Those who are brāhmaṇas at death, brahma*-jānāti vibrāhmaṇa. Our process is to give them chance to hear. Then they'll get gradually idea, not immediate. In the beginning let him eat prasādam, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. [break] "My dear friend, please come. Chant with us, dance with us, and take prasādam." There will be no.... (end) *Morning Walk-*-May 29, 1976, Honolulu Prabhupāda: ...was as you say (indistinct). Devotee (1): About the origin of the universe? Prabhupāda: No. Devotee (2): Chance theory. Devotee (1): To prove that theory of chance. Prabhupāda: And still they accept it? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: What do you think? Devotee (2): There's no evidence, because you've explained many times that an orange always comes from an orange tree, a banana always comes from a banana tree, man always comes from man, and monkey always comes from monkey. We find that actually things are not happening by chance. That they're very much controlled. *Prabhupāda: There is. Nobody can deny it. Only this tenth*-class man will deny it. Even third-class man, fourth class, he'll not deny. But what is that intelligence, one should make it a science. Intelligence there is no doubt about it. Devotee (2): There's another theory that God created the universe, and then things are just happening haphazardly. There's no actual design or ultimate plan of creation. Simply He created, and things were set in motion. Prabhupāda: That is another foolish notion. Just like the seed, banyan tree seed, every plan is there: how the tree will grow, how the fruits will flower, flowers will come. Everything is there. That is intelligence. Within a small seed everything is there potency. Aśakti vividaiva. Sarvavidya. It comes certainly. Devotee (2): One thing though, people, they see that there's birth and death, they don't understand the purpose of the whole creation when they see that so many things are going on like this. Prabhupāda: There is purpose. We have explained so many times. The purpose is that we have come here to enjoy, but this enjoyment is false. God has given us the chance to enjoy, to experience that this enjoyment is not good. They are simply suffering. They cannot enjoy. The plan is that he's given the chance to enjoy and experience that here there is no enjoyment and he's simply suffering. So when he comes to his sense, he again goes back home. The thief, he thinks that to live in the prison house is very good: "I haven't got to work, and I shall get my food and shelter." That is not.... That is a false enjoyment. Outside the prison, that is enjoyment. If one thinks that "I don't have to work; let me go to the prison house." Father wants that the sons should live in the family, but sometimes the son leaves the family and wants to enjoy independently. So he suffers. Jajīva (indistinct) māyā kare japoti (indistinct). Devotee (3): Some philosophers feel that this understanding of God actually is no more than simply a wish. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (3): They feel that it is no more than a wish. That it is just simply a desire. Prabhupāda: What you are wish? You are also taking the chance, a wish that things must act like this. But that is not happening. Devotee (3): It is just like a person who wants to turn all the metal in the world into gold. He may be wishing and desiring to turn everything into gold, but actually it is not possible. So therefore they say that we want to be protected against the onslaught of material nature. But actually that will never happen. So therefore they create God in this way. Or some person who wants to turn all the metal into gold, but actually it's not possible. Prabhupāda: But what you are doing? You are also doing everything hoping that you'll feel happy. Practically you're not doing anything. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): They think that everything was created just so that we could enjoy for a few years and then die. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless they have solved the problems of death, all their hopes are useless. [break] ...is Sada? What is that? Hari-śauri: Sadaputa. Prabhupāda: Sadaputa. He has said nicely that "They depend on chance. We depend on God." That's all. [break] Some dress? No, bird (indistinct) Devotee (2): No, they have some bathing trunks on. Hari-śauri: Sometimes they wear like a rubber suit. Something like the scales of a fish. It keeps them.... (laughing) Devotee (2): Aldous Huxley liked to think of the idea that there's no controller, so that he could enjoy without the feeling of guilt. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the whole idea. Thieves and rogues, they think "If there's no government, then we can do whatever we like." Who is there of the thieves and rogues? Hari-śauri: That description's given when after the brāhmaṇas killed King Vena, they saw a great huge dust cloud on the horizon from all the thieves and rogues rushing back into the kingdom (laughing) when there was no ruler. Devotee (2): Why doesn't he come to his senses there and then that "What have I done? Why don't I become God conscious?" Prabhupāda: That is māyā. Just like they surfer. What is that? They are in hell. But they have no sense that "What you are enjoying? It is hell." They are thinking they are enjoying. Is that enjoyment? It is actually hell. But he's thinking he's enjoying. That is called māyā. He's accepting something what is not. That is māyā. Hog eating stool, and he's thinking he's enjoying. This is called māyā. There are different grades of suffering, and still they are thinking they are enjoying. Devotee (3): To really enjoy life you have to suffer a little bit... Prabhupāda: He doesn't know what is enjoyment. That is the... Devotee (2): So simply suffering is not a qualification for becoming God conscious then? Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee (2): Simply to suffer is not qualification for becoming God conscious? Prabhupāda: Why suffering? Where is suffering? What you are suffering? We are God conscious. We are suffering? Devotee (2): No. No. Ah... Hari-śauri: He means for approaching God consciousness. Devotee (2): It is a prerequisite. Prabhupāda: I do not under... Devotee (2): So we see that, in other words, when someone goes to hell... Prabhupāda: But he does not take it as suffering. Take it as enjoyment. Hari-śauri: Once you understand it's, ah... Prabhupāda: Unfortunate that they're taking suffering as enjoyment. This is called māyā. māyā vase yaccho vese kacho haba... Surfer, he is struggling against the waves, and they're thinking it is enjoyment. Chance of being drowned, being attacked by some sea animals. It is always risky and suffering. And still they're thinking enjoyment. But they're coming from far distant place to enjoy this. Hari-śauri: They get their enjoyment from taking a risk. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is not suffering, they're taking risk as enjoyment. Devotee (2): Material life is great suffering. Totally insensitive that they take such suffering to be enjoyment. Prabhupāda: This is their punishment. They are being punished, but if you think that "I am punished," they will die. You must take it "I'm enjoying." This is māyā's energy. They are being punished, but punishment they are taking as enjoyment. Illusion. The conditioned soul is illusioned. This is illusion. He is being punished, and he's thinking "I am enjoying." That is a concession. When he's punished, he may not be woke up with the unhappiness. Therefore he's thinking "I'm enjoying." Actually he's being punished. Devotee (3): [break] ...saying though you have to laugh to keep from crying. Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee (3): There's an old saying that things sometimes become so miserable that you have to laugh to keep from crying. So in the material world they have to keep laughing because everything is very miserable. *Prabhupāda: Just like a criminal is put into the prison house for being punished, he will say, "Just see, I am living happily. I haven't got to work. I'm getting my food." (laughing) Such shameless. He does not know that "I am put here for suffering." But he's thinking "I'm so living happily.... I haven't got to work. Other men, they're going to the office, to the factory. I'm eating." (laughing) He forgets actually he's put into the prison house to suffer. He doesn't come to his senses. Therefore again when he's released, again he comes. He thinks that it is.... In Bengal they call social beggars (indistinct) Social beggars (indistinct) just like son*-in-law goes to father-in-law's, and he's well received. So they think that prison house is social beggar (indistinct), another in-law's house. Hari-śauri: In the West they experience that. That many of the men that go out of prison, they immediately commit some crime so that they can go straight back in... Prabhupāda: Yes. They think it is very nice. Yes. This is called māyā. He's into suffering, but he thinks this is very nice. It is called prakri badni dasuni (indistinct). (Sanskrit) It is covered. Stool, worm. You take the stool worm from the stool and kick it aside, again it will go.... (laughing) "This is enjoyment. Why you are taking from me?" (laughing) Hari-śauri: Like the cockroaches. If you make everything clean, they go away. Devotee (3): In Washington all of the drunks, they go in there and stay in the prison, and it was costing the government a great amount of money. So they passed the law that they were not going to put the drunks in jail any more because it was costing them such a big expense. They all want to go to jail. Hari-śauri: What about when someone goes to the hellish regions though? He actually suffers there? Prabhupāda: Yes. Of course. But he thinks that "I am enjoying." Hari-śauri: Oh. 'Cause after reading the descriptions in the Bhāgavatam, it seems it's pretty horrific. Prabhupāda: Well, when one is accustomed, then he thinks it is enjoyment. Hari-śauri: Oh, and then he goes into another body to enjoy. Prabhupāda: They're going to become fish. Now they are being trained up how to become fish. So after this body is finished, they'll take a body of fish. When one becomes fish he doesn't know that this is punishment. He says that it is very nice. Concession by māyā, that he's put into suffering, but he'll think that "I am enjoying." This is mercy of māyā. [break]...anesthetic in surgical operation. Surgical operation, that is suffering, but if you apply some anesthetic, you do not perceive. It is like that. Devotee (2): ...solution for this? Prabhupāda: Sufficient chanting. That's all. Kirtanad eva kṛṣṇaśya mukta sanga param vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Devotee (4): In the fish body will he have to suffer for all his other sinful activities also? Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of suffering, to become fish, and then millions and millions of years he has to evolve himself to different life. (end) *Morning Walk-*-May 30, 1976, Honolulu Prabhupāda: ...difference between our activities and general people's activities. Devotee (1): The result is different. Hari-śauri: Our activities are liberating, and their activities are entangling. Devotee (2): The difference in our activities is that because we see everything as Kṛṣṇa's energy, we feel the material world is never disturbing to us. Whereas for the karmīs, the material world is always very disturbing for them. Prabhupāda: Yes. But they want that disturbance. He's trying to be happy, but they do not know what is eternal happiness. We're also trying for happiness, but our aim is eternal happiness. Devotee (3): They think that eternal happiness means the same happiness that we experience in the material world, but it lasts forever, because they cannot conceive of a different quality of blissfulness. Prabhupāda: This is difference. One is eternal; *one is temporary and miserable. Although it is so*-called happiness, it is temporary. At any moment it is finished. Actually there is no happiness. Still, even they consider this is happiness, that is temporary. You cannot enjoy. At any moment you'll be finished. Just like the surfers, they're enjoying happiness. At any moment they can be finished. Devotee (3): Danger also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Any moment. Devotee (3): So there's anxiety in all of the happiness in this world. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Sanskrit) asad grahāt. Because they have accepted something which is not happiness, temporary, they're always full of anxiety. This is the nature. The bird flying, anxiety "Oh, so many men are coming." He's not in peace. He was eating something; as soon as he sees so many.... "Oh, away," flying. Anxiety. (Sanskrit) asad grahāt. Asat. Asat means temporary. The Vedic injunction is asato mā sad gamaya: don't stay in asat. Go to the sat, which is permanent. Asato mā sad gamaya (indistinct) jyotir gamaya (indistinct). Don't remain in darkness, go to the light. (inaudible) Ordinarily they want danger (inaudible). The same Vedic.... Asato mā jyotir gamaya. Devotee (2): [break] ...that they are satisfied with the knowledge that it's given in most religious books, because they say that... Prabhupāda: Where is religious book? Devotee (2): Bible. Prabhupāda: All speculation. Claims only. Repeatedly religion means orders of God. If you do not know who is God.... If you do not know what is government, then what is government law? Devotee (2): The world religions are not presented very scientifically. Prabhupāda: Many religions. God is one. Religion is one. If you do not know God, then you do not know religion. Devotee (3): [break] ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, that for some reason or another, in the Old Testament, God would have said that, because of the circumstances you live in, you should eat cows. This is what we find in the Bible. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Devotee (3): Is it possible that somehow or another at that particular time and place, God would have said "Eat cows"? Because in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa clearly says go-rakṣya, cow protection. And that instruction would also be eternal. *Prabhupāda: Go*-rakṣya, the point is that cow's milk is very important. Therefore specifically mentioned go-rakṣya. Kṛṣṇa does not say that don't eat meat. It is not really said that meat-eating is forbidden. But meat-eating is tāmasika, prāmādya (indistinct). But He's speaking of go-rakṣya for our special material benefit, that if we protect the cows, we can have the facility of drinking milk, which will help us in keeping our health in order and developing very nice brain tissues to understand spiritual subject matter. Fish-eaters, they're all dull. They cannot understand finer philosophy of life. Meat-eating, not good. But the śūdras, and the less than śūdras, they eat. But for them there's lower animals, not cow. Devotee (3): These people, they think that if someone is inspired by God, then their word is the word of God. Therefore they can write all kinds of things, and they put the label on it that "This was spoken by God through me." Prabhupāda: Hearing directly from Him. Which one is better? Directly hearing from Him, or by some inspiration? Devotee (2): Hearing directly, naturally. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is true. By sentiment you can say "I'm inspired." But hear directly then there is no question. *Devotee (3): People sometimes ask, "If Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken by Kṛṣṇa and it was recorded by Vyāsadeva in the Mahābhārata, was Vyāsadeva actually present there on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra, or did he see it by revelation?" Prabhupāda: No. Here, just like something's happening ten thousand miles away. You can record it by modern machine. Devotee (3): : [break] ...mercy he was able to... Prabhupāda: Three millions miles, sun is, eh? Hari-śauri: : That's what they say. Prabhupāda: So from so far distant place the heat is coming, and there is no brain behind it? Devotee (4): : It takes five minutes for the sunlight to reach us, and light travels at, what, 193,000 miles a second? I don't know. Whatever it is. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, such a wonderful things is there, and there is no brain behind it? Is it very reasonable proposal? It has come automatically. There is a chunk. Childish. Devotee (1): : Because it's too much beyond their conception, they say that it's simply imagination. Prabhupāda: : Ha? Devotee: : They say that simply because it's too much beyond their conception... Prabhupāda: It's a fact. You see the heat and light. It is not the imagination. So who arranged so much heat and light? That is the question. It is not imagination. We have to manufacture a small bolt. It requires a big, big factory's brain. And this has come by chunk? Nonsense. And you have to accept it? These crazy fellows propose and we have to accept. Devotee (2): [break] ...they say that simply the universe always was, and that it always will be. Prabhupāda: Whatever is (unclear) nature, there is brain behind. That is the proposal. Why there is, that doesn't matter. But it will continue. World is and will continue. That's a fact. But who made it? That is the question. Devotee (3): : Karandhara and I were at a scientists' meeting, and he used that argument with the scientists. He said "The universe always has been." So Karandhara used your argument that "Yes, the sun has been there, and the sun rays are there along with it. Still, the sun is the source of the sun rays." The scientists could not answer. And everybody in the crowd... Prabhupāda: What they will answer? Simply speculator, misleading (unclear). Devotee (1): Well the next proposition is that if God is there, then let Him stay there, and we are here, let us stay here. Why do we have to be concerned with Him? Prabhupāda: But you (unclear) you rascal, you'll die. If there is no sun, you'll die. Therefore you must be obliged, feeling every moment that God is giving sun, you're living. God is so kind that you're given sun so that you can live. So you must be obliged to God. (Sanskrit) bhūtāni, bhūtāni jayanti. So saṁsanti, saṁkleśa (indistinct) santi.(?) You are living on mercy of God. You're so ungrateful. You're so rascal, you do not give Him thanks. Even the sun. In this world tax collector comes. If you say "Why shall I give you tax? It is already there. It was before my coming. How I was there. And still there. Why you're asking me tax?" Can you say like that? "Oh it was already there." There or there, if you enjoy, you must pay tax. Devotee (3): That is why they're having so many revolutions, because they do not like to be under the control of the government, they figure that "Now we can have can have so many revolutions." *Prabhupāda: : What is that revolution? The ball is kicked here, and again goes and he kicks there. That's all. Revolution means Czar was kicking, and then Lenin began to kick. But his business is to be kicked. That's all. What is the advancement? One man was kicking, another man was kicking. That's all. That is revolution. Gojan mumukta(?) (indistinct). If you have got strength, then the government is yours. That's all. But those who are resident, they are suffering. Just like this Korea, Vietnam, sometimes Communist government, sometimes capitalist government. The sufferer is the ordinary man. Revolution means one part takes the power, another man is killed. But the general people, they're suffering, this way that way. They do not think who will rule. Just like in India, they are the British rule, now it is Congress rule. But the result is in British rule the ghee was selling at one rupee per kilo, now it is twenty*-five rupees. The dhotī was selling one rupee six anna, now it is twenty-five rupees. So what the public has gained? Nothing. Devotee (2): : [break] ...very much burdened, because they have some obligation to God. So therefore now they want to.... They consider it an obligation. Prabhupāda: : Obligation we must follow. That I have already said, that you have obligation to the state, you must pay tax. Otherwise you are criminal. So obligation must be there. If somebody is giving you protection, you must be obliged. If you don't feel obliged, then you'll be punished. Hari-śauri: Gratitude is a sign of intelligence. Prabhupāda: Stena eva sa ucyate [Bg. 3.12]. In Bhāgavata it is written that everything belongs to God. You take whatever is your necessity. You take more, then you'll be punished. This is Bhāgavata's statement. So now the business is to become capitalist. He's taking more, holding the whole stock, at least in India. It is not coming to the market, and people are starving. So they will be punished. [break] ...also. The excess grain they are throwing it into the sea. So they'll be punished. They are also waiting, (Sanskrit). [break] ...spiritual communism. Don't take more. Just like the natural birds, if you keep one bag of rice here, he'll come, but they will take three, four grains, and they'll go away. And if you ask a man, "Here is some stack of rice." "Ah, I'll take." Immediately finished. One man will take it the whole stack, everything. "Oh, I've got it free. Let me take it." But the birds, they're under natural law. They know, "Ah, I have finished. I have got my belly filled up. I don't require any more." So God has given everything sufficiently. If every man takes whatever he wants absolutely, then there is no difficulty. That is your complication. But why there should be fight? Father's property of every son. He take as much as he requires. Accept father, his property, and take as much as you require. Don't take more. That is real communism. So where is that communism? Who has it? The material nature, the mother, and God is the father. And we are all children. That's all. Plain truth. [break] ...accept this philosophy? Devotee (2): : The sane people, the sane persons, they will accept. Prabhupāda: : That means there is no saintly person, all rogues. [break] ...objection. You have to accept some father; otherwise how you can exist? Devotee (1): The objection is that man wants to be completely free. Prabhupāda: He cannot be free. Hari-śauri: Well, like Freud said, that a child may be under the protection of the father, but eventually the child has to grow up and go out and face the harsh, cruel world. Prabhupāda: That is his folly. If he remains obedient to the father, then he'll be happy. Hari-śauri: : If you're already in a good situation, why create a bad one? Prabhupāda: : Yes. You be obedient and enjoy father's property. What is the wrong? Hari-śauri: : They want to enjoy for themselves. Prabhupāda: : You cannot enjoy. What you cannot enjoy if there is no water, if there is no sunshine and there is no trees, there is no.... Then how you can enjoy? This is given by father. You are already enjoying the father's property. Why you are so much ungrateful? Hari-śauri: : They haven't yet understood that the supply will be restricted if they don't behave. Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be. That.... They must wait for the day. Devotee (5): : They call that the energy crisis. Prabhupāda: : Ha? Devotee (5): : They call that the energy crisis. Prabhupāda: There will be crisis, and they will suffer. That's all. Call, whatever by name, there will be crisis. Nature is the mother, God is the father, and you are children. Everyone knows that Hari-śauri: Yes, but they say that one's existence doesn't continue to depend on the father and mother. That at a certain stage one has to break away from the father and mother. Prabhupāda: : That continues. Beginning is father and mother taking care. So it continues you have the care of father. That is your fault. Therefore you suffer. Hari-śauri: But practically speaking, we can see that at a certain stage the children have to take care of the father and mother, and not the other way around. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. Grown*-up children will take care, but the beginning is that without your parents' care you could not succeed. You would have died. Hari-śauri: : This is Freud's argument, that at a certain stage he can leave that care and venture out for himself. Prabhupāda: He can leave the father's care. But how can he deny father? Devotee (5): He denies the father. He denies the God the father. He says that's a wish fantasy for ...... *Prabhupāda: : Fantasy? Father is not fantasy. He is fact. You are grown up. You can leave the protection of the father. But how can you deny father? Then you are a rascal. It is not good to live independent of father. If the rich, opulent, very kind, very merciful, why shall I leave? A father is generally, even though he's personally a bad man, he's still, he's kind, merciful to the son. That he is, actually. A rogue, he loves*-just like Ajāmila. He was a rogue, but he was taking care of the youngest child. This is nature, we study that even the father is a rogue, he's kind to his children. So practically he does all nonsense things, but giving protection to the family. So why should he give up the protection of father? When we say father, means all-kindness, all-mercifulness, all taking care. Immediately. In Bengali there is a word, putra davitra hoy, kumāra(?) (indistinct) (indistinct) A son may be bad, but his mother is never bad. Son may be bad, mother.... Son may be bad, but the mother or father is never bad. The father may also be bad, but the mother is never bad. Hari-śauri: Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that when one instance... Prabhupāda: : No, no. There is exception with everything. Hari-śauri: Oh. Prabhupāda: : The thing is, father and mother is always kind. That is natural. Extraordinarily, the mother may kill. That is another thing. Crazy. But if somebody's coming to kill his child, mother gives protection: "First of all kill me." [break] So artistic competition, subject matter was that a child is being killed before the mother, and the artist has to give expression of the face. So different artists gave expression of the face of the mother when the child is being killed before her. So one artist made a picture like this. (holding hands over his eyes) He got the first prize. Hari-śauri: : She couldn't look. Prabhupāda: He got the first prize. You cannot express what mother's feeling is. Best thing is not to see. Devotee (5): That's the ah..... There are many famous paintings of Christ on the cross and his mother before..., his mother standing before the cross. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother cannot see it. Impossible. Better close the eyes. That is artist's realized. How a man can paint the expression of the mother, his child being killed. It is not possible. [break] Lesson by natures' study. Generally.... Generally means that is natural if one is under the protection of father and mother he must be happy. So why shall I give up the protection of father and mother? When my father is quite able, quite rich, and everything complete. Not that the poor father. [break] ...plainly declare, yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham [Bg. 9.22]. Practically see. I came to your country without any of these things. You saw. When I came to your country first, I had no center, no.... But who has provided all these hundred temples, big, big palaces, temples? Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham [Bg. 9.22]. To remain under the protection of Kṛṣṇa you get so much facility. Why not be grateful to Kṛṣṇa? (inaudible) ...and He has given me so many sons, so many houses, so many protection. Shall I not feel grateful? Is it not my duty? What is this nonsense? Kṛṣṇa gives everything, and "No, no, I don't believe in God. God is dead." All rascals. Who denies God, he is the lowest rascal, immediately. Mūḍha. (end) *Morning Walk-*-May 31, 1976, Honolulu Prabhupāda: The authorities say? Devotee (1): What do they say? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): It says that.... [break] ...possibility of an object staying in motion unless there's a person to move it. So therefore the conclusion is that these planets cannot stay in motion unless there is a supreme mover. Prabhupāda: So he accepts God. Devotee (1): [break] ...the fact that there's no need to worship God, the fact that there's a need to worship man, because man is actually the center of the universe instead of God as the center of the universe. Prabhupāda: Why do you fight? Why do you fight? Is there no obstacle, why do you fight? Devotee (1): Simply that it's human nature. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Worship God by fighting? Hari-śauri: Then it becomes a question of who's the best man. Prabhupāda: God, but you shouldn't fight with Him. But these rascals say worship man, but why does he fight with man? Another... Devotee (2): [break] Actually there was a boy sitting like that, and a shark came and bit off his leg while he was sitting there. Devotee (1): [break] ...they still think that... Prabhupāda: Worship. Devotee (1): ...still think that man can decide his own future. He can decide how the universe was made. That's the basic philosophy now, that man is actually the center of the universe. He can decide and make anything he wants. Initially there's no sense in worshiping God. Devotee (2): There's another philosophy, though. It's called ecology, which is even more popular. Prabhupāda: Zoology? Devotee (2): Ecology. They say that man is part of the universe, and that we should take care of the environment because ultimately man will kill himself if he doesn't care for the environment properly. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning? *Devotee (2): The meaning is that people have exploited the atmosphere and the earth so badly in the last two hundred years especially, that, practically speaking, man is on the verge of self*-destruction. Hari-śauri: They're getting scared because they put so much pollution in the atmosphere, into the water, into the earth, that now they're.... Everything's.... It's reacting against them now. Devotee (2): In other words, they're seeing that they've become a problem. Hari-śauri: I was telling you about that blob of garbage that was left out in the..., headed towards the harbor in New York. For the last fifty years they've dumped all the garbage in the sea, and now it's collected together, and it's coming back into the shore. They think that in about fifteen years time, if it travels at its present rate, it will be blocking the entire New York Harbor. So ecology means they have to try to find out ways and means of avoiding things like that. Devotee (2): Useless waste products. They've discovered new ways in science how to use things which can be used and used again and again. For example, newspapers, instead of throwing them away, they can recycle them and make new newspapers. Devotee (3): They also say they were going to recycle their own urine and stool and use it over and over. Prabhupāda: How? Devotee (3): Like in the spaceship. When they go to the moon they recycle their own urine and drink it over again. (laughing) Devotee (2): Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the most popular philosophy is (inaudible). Prabhupāda: Madman. (laughing) Devotee (3): Man has created so many problems in the environment, so they don't think that the problem is man's way of doing things, or its heart. They simply consider if we can make some adjustments in the environment, then everything will go on very nicely. *Prabhupāda: They will try to make adjustments with material nature, everything will be failure. ...hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā. They'll never be able to adjust. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], chewing the chewed. That's all. [break] ...adjustment to lie down in the skyscraper, and now they are coming. Why they have come to the ground? Punaḥ punaś carvita. Sometimes on the ground, sometimes the sky. [break] They reject the stool and urine and then accept it. They do like that. (laughing) [break] It is rejected. It cannot be utilized. In India still the system is they use metal; when it is broken you can sell it. They take half price and supply new.... They use metal pots, and the (inaudible) is that when it is broken and old we can exchange with new plates. And this kind of bowls you have to throw away. You cannot utilize. Devotee (3): So they break very easily? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (3): These plates, the silverware and things that people use? Prabhupāda: No, whatever (unclear). Silver is not half price. Silver, little less than new one. They purchase one rupee less. It was 200 rupees new, and the purchaser will take 190 (unclear) ...India they use (unclear). Bell metal, copper... Hari-śauri: Aluminium is becoming very popular now, aren't they? *Prabhupāda: They don't use aluminium much. If they have got excess money, they invest in metal-gold, silver, copper, bell metal.... Immediate loan-you can mortgage the metal pots, the metal ornaments, you get money immediately. [break] ...in a year, that is a metal purchasing ceremony. Every family will purchase, according to his means, some metal pots once in a year. Dhantraivesi(?) (indistinct) means desire some funds. So if there's some extra money*-not big, big men; *middle class storeman*-they invest in metal purchase. If there is a good business day, (unclear) all the utensils (unclear). You know Diwali, Diwali? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Just one day before Diwali. Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Huge quantity of metals. Everyone will count (indistinct) (end) *Room Conversationwith Reporter-*-June 3, 1976, Los Angeles Rāmeśvara: Do you want to sit on chairs or...? Reporter: No, this is fine. Rāmeśvara: Oh, good. Indian style. How large is the newspaper? The circulation? Reporter: 450,000. Rāmeśvara: Half a million. Reporter: Ah, Swami. What is your purpose here with your ah.... with the faith in seeking the growth and so on. Prabhupāda: (to Rāmeśvara) That is the purpose you can explain. Rāmeśvara: The purpose of our, of our seeking the growth is so that people all over the world can become happy again. People who are suffering due to lack of knowledge about who they are and what their relationship is with God, and as a result of that ignorance, they're performing so many activities which cause them pain and misery, so that they can become happy again. Reporter: Ah. How is..., how will this be achieved? Prabhupāda: Misery. Misery is caused due to ignorance. They admit or not. The more we are kept in darkness of knowledge, we suffer. What is the difference between ah..., what is called? Developed nations and not developed nations. This America belonged to the Red Indians. And because they are not developed, their condition was developed, ah, different from the present America. They could not construct such big, big house, and big, big roads, and like that because they are in ignorance. That is the difference. Prosperity, no prosperity. Happiness, not happiness. They are ignorance and knowledge. Reporter: They have.... Is it that they have confused materialism with happiness? Prabhupāda: Not Material, I mean, I mean to say. Happiness is knowledge. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Happiness is knowledge. Man who is in ignorance, he is suffering, and that you say material and spiritually. A person who is not in developed consciousness, he is suffering. And they commit sinful acts also. Reporter: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: They commit sinful acts also in ignorance. That is the difference between man and animal. Animal means not developed consciousness. They.... Some of them, they say the animal has no soul. That is foolishness. Animal has soul, but the consciousness is not developed. Just like a child. Father's consciousness and the child's consciousness different. Why it is different? The child's consciousness is not developed. Father's consciousness is developed. Because the child is talking some nonsense, you cannot say there is no soul. There is soul, but the consciousness is not developed. Reporter: Do you see hope for mankind in the future? Prabhupāda: Yes. Man can be happy immediately provided the consciousness is developed. Reporter: Can.... Do you think that this will ever be achieved? Prabhupāda: Yes. It can be achieved. Just like I have sent a letter to your government asking them questions that you write on the bills: "In God We Trust." So is it that you trust in God blindly or knowingly? That was my question. Suppose I trust you. So you must be trustworthy. Otherwise why shall I trust you? So this question I asked the government: "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so what kind of trust is this?" If you actually trust, then you must know that God is trustworthy. Only blindly trust as a slogan. But that letter is not in reply. So what is your opinion? "In God We Trust," but how do you trust, why you trust? This is my question. Reporter: It would be a matter of faith, I suppose. *Prabhupāda: Faith may be different. You may have faith, I may not have faith. That is not the question. Just like in the bank you deposit some money. If some may have faith or no faith, but that bank is trustworthy. You know that your money deposited in the bank will not be cheated. Similarly if you trust in God, you must know whether God is trustworthy. Whether.... What do you mean by God? This is not the question of faith. Faith is bad. It is a question of understanding. So that we want, that America*-specially you are favorite amongst all other nations; *you are well*-to-do, richer than other nations-so why don't you take God seriously? Why should you trust in God as faith? No, you understand what is God and have your faith at full, that "God is, yes, trustworthy," so that others may also know that God is trustworthy. That is our mission, that why God entrust? Are we trusting God? Should we.... A slogan. Let it be a fact by scientific study, by scientific understanding. There is way to understand why God is trustworthy. It's not the question of faith. It is a fact. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Just like a child had..., has faith in his parents. So that is not an artificial thing, that is fact. And parents are trustworthy to the child. There is no doubt of..., by nature. So, similarly, why could..., you should be in trust in God? Why blindly? Why not trust with knowledge? And that is our movement. Every civilized person has got some faith in God. But now, they're advanced, they should understand what is God, why you must have faith in Him. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Reporter: It's a matter of education... *Prabhupāda: Simply faith, blind faith we do not endure. And therefore they are becoming godless. And gradually, if we do not understand factually what is God, then the whole human civilization will be godless. To become godless means again animal. That is the difference between animal and man. In the animal society there is no question of religion, faith, God. These things are not there. The human civilization, if it becomes like that, without any faith in God, without any understanding of God, then where is the difference between cats and dogs and human beings? They must know God scientifically. That is the actual aim of human life. Suppose the dog is sleeping on the street without any care whether a car is coming and smash it. He's also sleeping sound sleep. And we are sleeping in a very nice apartment. So after all, sleeping. And he is also enjoying sleeping, I am also enjoying sleeping. So do you think to change the, I mean to say, circumstances of the sleeping? I am sleeping in a very nice apartment, he's sleeping on the floor. Does it mean this is advancement of civilization? Sleeping is sleeping. Eating is eating. Sex life*-the male dog is enjoying with female dog. The sex pleasure is to him, and we are enjoying with a beautiful lover. The sex pleasure is the same. Therefore, you take some eatable, either on gold fork or an iron fork, the taste is the same. Simply like putting the foodstuff in the golden fork, does it mean the taste has changed? So, the test of eating, sleeping, mating and defending is the same for the human being as well as the animals. What difference, what is the difference between the animals and humans? The animal cannot know God. That is not possible. The human being can know. That is the opportunity of this human life. If we are missing that opportunity, then we are leading an animal civilization. This is not civilization. Animal life is not civilization. Civilized means not animal life. Something more than that. That is God consciousness. Reporter: Do you have programs developed to educate mankind towards this God consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Concrete education. Not fictitious. Concrete. Reporter: How will you.... How would you get man to become aware of the situation so he could desire, even desire unconsciously? *Prabhupāda: There is a very simply fact. It you simply understand that one verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā, there it is stated that Very simply thing. Just like the art of the material nature. Everything is coming out of the material nature, beginning from the grass to the highest intellectual human being or more than that. Wherefrom they are coming? From this material nature: ether, earth, water, fire. This element, some material nature. Let us see from the ground, the grass is coming, the vegetable is coming. From the water the fishes are coming, all the ants are coming, the germs are coming. Then, after eating that vegetable, the animals are coming. In this way everything is coming, generated from the earth, from the material nature. Is it not a fact? Reporter: Mmm! Prabhupāda: So, we are coming from material nature. That means we are..., material nature is our mother. From the womb of mother, the child comes from. So, from the material nature everything is coming. Therefore according to Vedic knowledge, this earth is also mother. We have got seven mothers according to Vedic civilization: *Ātma-mātā means original mother, real mother. And guroḥ patnī, the wife of teacher. The wife of a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means the most intellectual class of men in the human society, brāhmaṇa. It is not a caste. It is a section in every human society. Always, there is a class of men very intelli..., intelligent. They are called brāhmaṇa. So, ātma-mātā, guroḥ patnī, brāhmaṇī, rāja-patnikā, and the queen-formerly there were kings-she is also considered mother. And dhenu means cow is mother because we drink her milk. She supplies milk. That's mother. And pṛthvī, in the earth, we are coming out. Earth is mother. Really we see coming. And there may be different varieties of sons. That doesn't matter. But anything coming out the earth-the earth is mother*-and that is coming out, that is son. Then where is the father? There must be father. Is it possible mother can give birth to a child without father? Reporter: Mm? Prabhupāda: Is it possible? Reporter: I wouldn't think so. Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: I wouldn't think so. No. *Prabhupāda: So, there must be father. This is conclusion. So who is sanctioning about the father? The answer is in the Bhagavad*-gītā: ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4], "I am father." You cannot denying father; *that is not possible. If there is mother, if there is child, there must be father. This is human sense. And animal sense is: "I don't care for father. There may be father, may not be..." That is animal sense. So do you want to keep the human society in such ignorance just like cats and dogs? The dogs do not care who is father. This movement wants to give education to the human society: "Yes, there is father." And that is actual fact. Without father how there is child? Is it possible? Then? For at the present moment, the human society is child playing on the lap of mother, that's all. In big, big motorcars, that's all. Without any knowledge of father. But will the human being remain simply satisfied with toys on the lap of mother, or you'll try to understand who is father? So we are satisfied with the toys, and playing on the lap of the mother. The motorcar is running very swiftly, head*-break or neck-break speed, and they are thinking they are civilized, advanced. What is.... "Who is your father?" "Don't know." Rāmeśvara: Then, where do you live? Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: Where do you.... Where do...? Prabhupāda: But, he lives on the lap of mother, that's all. That is child. Child is satisfied on the lap of the mother, that's what I am saying. He doesn't.... The child doesn't care, "I have to know the father." But there is father, that's a fact. That means the present civilization is childish civilization. Does not care to know the father. So, whether the human civilization will remain child, children. They fight amongst themselves. Children, however you can.... "My dear children, live peacefully." So for the time being they may be. Again they will fight, they will cry. That is going on. What the United Nations has done? For the last forty years, they're fighting like children or animals. So you keep..., if you keep them as child or animals, do you think there will be peace? That is not possible. It is to the talking of big, big words for peace. That is not possible. It is futile attempt. They're talking of big, big wars (indistinct), that is not possible. I think in Melbourne I, in my press interview, I said if the United Nations is working. Ambarīṣa: I just came from Vancouver from the Habitat Conference. The U.N. is having a Habitat Conference in Vancouver, and they (indistinct) is not united, their discussions and arguments. Sometimes there are walkouts, so many things, and they're not able to reach any conclusions, they can't agree with each other. Prabhupāda: How they can? Do you mean to say dogs simply barking, they will come to a conclusion? (chuckles) It is not possible. There is no aim, what is the actual aim of life. So this is very important movement. At least the intelligent class of men, they must understand it thoroughly. Just like there is body. There are different parts, different sections of the body, but the most important section is the brain. Similarly, the important section of society means one who is fully in God consciousness. I.... You can cut my hands, I shall live. You can cut my legs, I shall live. But if you cut my head, (indistinct). So, at the present moment, there are big, big scientists, big, big technologists. That's all right; that is hands and legs. But there is no brain. Therefore in one sense, you can take it as dead society. So in my opinion, I like your country, America. Sometimes I call, "This is my fatherland," because these American boys, they are helping me pushing on this movement. I am very much obliged to these boys. Now, let us take it little more seriously statewise. And if America takes it seriously, other nations will follow. And there is the United Nations Organization in America. And make a nice organization to understand God. United Nations God Consciousness. People will benefit. Reporter: Do you see America getting more God consciousness? Prabhupāda: At least I see majority of my disciples are Americans. Why not expanding? Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, before Richard asked me a question: what is the difference between our movement and say another religion like the Sikhs or some other religion? Prabhupāda: Don't misunderstand. It is.... Religion, it means a kind of faith. Just like you are Christian, I am Hindu. So you have faith in Christian religion, I have faith in Hin.... That is another thing. But this is.... We understand religion in a different way according to English dictionary. But real religion means the law given by God. This is the shortcut definition of religion. And if you do not know what is God, and if you do not know what is His law, then what is the meaning of religion? There is no meaning of religion. If blindly, if I have some faith in some dogmas and ritualistic ceremonies, that is not religion. Religion means the science by which you can understand God and the law of God. That is religion. It is not the kind of faith. Just like state laws. You may have faith or no faith. The state law is law; you have to obey it. Just like I have come in America. In our country, the street law is "Keep to the left." So I have come to America, you say "Keep to the right." If I say, "No, I have no faith in this 'Keep to the right.' " No, I must obey. That is law. Similarly, religion means you may have faith or no faith, but you must obey. It is a must. It is not optional. That is religion. That, I explained it many times that (indistinct) means characteristic. Just like everyone of us, we are servant. So, the living entity is servant. He may have faith or no faith, he must be a servant. And if you don't become servant of God, then you become servant of dog. That is your advancement of civilization. When there is no service for God, just like here we have got service for God, there is no question of serving dog. But when we forget service of God, then automatically we become service of dog. But service.... I am servant, that's a fact. And voluntarily keep a dog and serve him. They have no master, then I keep a master, dog, cat. You call it by the name, pet. What is a pet? I do service, that's all. So this is our advancement of civilization. We have refused to serve God, and you voluntarily accept to serve dog. Now in India, they are also learning. (chuckles) And formerly, dog keeping, dog there was in the neighborhood. But they were not allowed to enter the room or house. Now, they are keeping dogs just like the Western people keep. They are making dog show and so on, so on. Rāmeśvara: Dog show. Prabhupāda: They are learning how serve the dog. And they are giving up God. Ambarīṣa: Yeah, there are a lot of people here that worship their pets. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambarīṣa: Yes. Rāmeśvara: The Russians served Lenin. Prabhupāda: They are imitating. You understand people are very expert in this subject matter. They have come.... Learning everything. Devotee (1): We can't avoid serving. Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Rāmeśvara: That's all there is in life, is service. *Prabhupāda: Now we are sitting, so many gentlemen. He's having some paper, and you are serving God. The service is there. Nobody can say, "No, I don't serve anyone." Is there any man? No. That is not possible. You must serve. Constitutionally, you are meant for service, either you are president of the state or is anything. That is your position. That is the beginning of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. All living entities are eternal servant of God. Ambarīṣa: And all service is the same? Prabhupāda: Eh? Ambarīṣa: All service is the same? Devotee (1): No. He says, "All service is the same." Prabhupāda: How can it be? All service is the same? Do you think... Ambarīṣa: Everybody serves in their own way, but it's all... Prabhupāda: That is.... Unless you come to the service of God, it is wrong. Devotee (2): I think he's asking, "But if it is service to God, then in God's eyes, all service to Him." Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Right. Prabhupāda: Yes. God, service to God means, just like you put foodstuff in the stomach. Then the service, supplying energy, is distributed automatically. The eyes get service, the ears get service, the hands get service, legs get service, everything. But if you put foodstuff in the eyes, instead of giving service, you make it blind. If you put foodstuff in the ear, instead of hearing, it is blocked. Then that is ignorance. You do not know where to give service. The knowledge, God consciousness, means to know where to give service, so that the service will be automatically distributed. You pour water on the root of the tree and the energy will be distributed to the trunk, to the branches, to the twigs, to the leaves, to the flowers, everyone. We are missing their point. This is scientific, *So instead of giving service in so many ways*-social, political, philosophical, cultural, this way, that way-if you simply learn how to serve God, then everything will be done. So that is our philosophy, and we are laboring for this purpose, that you understand God and give service to Him, then the whole society will be perfect, peaceful. Reporter: I have no more questions. Rāmeśvara: No questions about this assignment. Devotee (1): You asked earlier about our program for educating society, are you still interested in this? Prabhupāda: This education is all explained. Devotee (2): I think he was interested also techniques by which we go about educating society. We have some techniques which... Prabhupāda: Technical knowledge is not education. Devotee (2): No, but I mean, as far as our books are.... We have our techniques for educating society. Prabhupāda: Oh! Rāmeśvara: Our program is to distribute the books of the *Vedas* with our spiritual master's philosophical commentaries. We already discussed a little bit before we came. *Prabhupāda: And all this subject matter, everything, sixty*-two books already. Rāmeśvara: Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (2): Jaya! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 3, 1976, Los Angeles Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While I was in New York, I've been going to the United Nations building there, and there's a organization called ECOSOC, the Economic and Social Council. It's made up of the members of the U.N. and I think there's very good chance that our society can be represented amongst this group as a nongovernmental organization, which means that in various matters which the council discusses, we would be a consultive group and we would be able to present statements as well as literature on how to solve..., on our viewpoint on how to solve various problems facing the council. And these would be distributed to all the United Nations representatives. Prabhupāda: As soon as you say "God," they will reject. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, actually, one of the things which this council handles is freedom of religion throughout the world. Prabhupāda: That means they do not believe in God. Freedom of religion means whatever you like, you do. Hṛdayānanda: Yes. That's a fact. Prabhupāda: That is going on. Religion is not very important. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. It's not one of their major considerations. Prabhupāda: Yes. How to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex, that is their consideration. Animal activities. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But one advantage of this is that all of the.... Just like they make a lot of studies of various countries. Prabhupāda: "Studies" means if they do not take the science of God as the most important items. Then they'll say: "Yes, you have freedom, you can do. I have got my freedom." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. They make a lot of information available on the.... In other words, it'll help our saṅkīrtana movement because they make inquiries into the freedom of an individual, for example, to.... As we want to distribute literature in various countries, they have so much facts and figures on where that would be possible. Prabhupāda: And the newsreel will say that this saṅkīrtana movement is nuisance, it is disturbance. Then what they'll do? Rāmeśvara: There's also some respectability if we become connected with... Prabhupāda: That is all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's prestigious, and it also allows us to have a lot of information available. Just like, as we're finding out, for example, Rāmeśvara Mahārāja is working with our lawyer here, and we find that we have the legal right to distribute in airports. Legally, we have the right. Similarly, there are legal rights for our saṅkīrtana movement in various countries in the world, and through this group we would get access to all information on what the legal position is and other things of this kind. Prabhupāda: Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Yes, that's nice. Rāmeśvara: (Maharishi Mahesh) Yogi, he tried to file a trademark on the words "Transcendental Meditation" with the United States government. So we protested that actually he cannot claim that he is teaching transcendental meditation, what to speak of prohibiting anyone else from using those words. So they accepted our claim and kicked out his application. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: They were writing, their lawyers were writing our Society letters that "You cannot use the words 'Transcendental Meditation.' Maharishi has made up this process and you are stealing from him." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's stealing from Kṛṣṇa. Bharadvāja: Yesterday you gave an example of a man who was lying asleep in bed, and he is transported somewhere in dream, walking on the beach. What is the full...? Because we're going to try to make an exhibit of it. So what is the full analogy? Is he actually going to another place by his mind, he's actually transported? Prabhupāda: The soul is going there. The seer is the same in this gross body or in the subtle bodies. I am in the, walking in this gross body, I'm seeing this ocean, and I will leave my gross body in dream, I go to India. So the seer is the same. That is the proof of transmigration. He's dreaming tiger, and he's crying, "Here is a tiger, tiger, tiger," and another man, who is seer of the body, he says, "Where is tiger?" So this is the difference. One is seeing through this gross body, another seeing through the subtle body, but the seer is the same. Transmigration of the soul means, when he's seeing through.... That is practical. The child, when he's seeing through the childish body, he's talking nonsense. The same soul, when he's talking as an elderly person, he's talking beautiful (indistinct). The seer is the same, simply the glass is changed. Sometimes blue, sometimes red. [break] Seer is the same, medium is different. That you have.... And dead body means the seer is no longer there. It has entered another body. [break] Pradyumna: ...when someone is sleeping and dreaming, that the seer has left the gross body? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Bharadvāja: How does the.... Life symptoms, how are the life symptoms maintained in the body? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bharadvāja: The life symptoms are maintained in the body still? Prabhupāda: No, life symptoms, there is not. The body's fit; therefore, he comes back again. When the body is not fit, he enters another body. Just like your car you leave. We have come here. Now the car is all right; we go. If it is useless, we don't go. We take another. Bharadvāja: The body is breathing. Hṛdayānanda: That is like leaving the motor running. Prabhupāda: They, unless the seer returns back, the body will lie down. That is death. The seer no more comes back. Then it is dead. Hṛdayānanda: Yes, sometimes a man dies in his sleep. Prabhupāda: It is dead. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So sleeping is like temporary death. Prabhupāda: Yes. All deaths are temporary. When you change bodies, you die for seven months. This death is for few hours, and that is for seven months. That's all. Bharadvāja: What happens when he dreams of the spiritual master or Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: That's all right. Dreaming means he's seeing. The seer is the same. Rādhāvallabha: In Hawaii you were saying that they take rest for six months and wake up a dog. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) [break] ...a small garden like this, that is called a hanging garden. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we can walk there in the mornings. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Bharadvāja: Śrīla Prabhupāda, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is considered to be the watering process, and sometimes from chanting, the weeds, from watering, the weeds also grow along with devotional service*-the weeds of different desires. I don't understand how it is possible that from chanting that these weeds grow. *Prabhupāda: Chanting is purifying all material desires. It will take, gradually. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. If you are chanting without any offense, then your heart will be cleansed of all material contamination. Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Bharadvāja: So pulling out the weeds means avoiding the offenses in chanting the holy name. Prabhupāda: Yes. So long we'll have material desires, we'll have to accept a material body and fulfill the desires. Mahendra: Sometimes, although a devotee understands that he must take birth again if he does not, if he is not strict, he thinks, "Oh, it is so difficult to be strict. Maybe I'll just take it easy and remain engaged in devotional service, then I'll take another birth as a devotee and maybe next time I'll finish up my business." *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. He gets good opportunity of material enjoyment, and then take birth in good family, aristocratic or brāhmaṇa. Then where he ended in last life, he begins again. There is a verse: paurva-dehikam. Paurva-dehikam means previous birth. Mahendra: It seems, though, that in that respect, he's gambling. Prabhupāda: Gambling? Mahendra: Yes, he's gambling, that he's thinking that "Oh, next life I will come back in a better condition," but his next might be different. Prabhupāda: Why should he desire like that? That means he has not understood what is meant by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. One who understands wants to get out in this lifetime. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One who understands Kṛṣṇa consciousness should want to finish the business of material life. *Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore he's required to read Bhagavad*-gītā thoroughly. It is said clearly, "This is a place of misery." Why do you desire to keep yourself in this.... That means you do not understand what is spiritual life. Hari-śauri: Still thinking he's this body. Prabhupāda: Thinking. Thinking, he's under the influence of māyā. māyā is dictating, "Why you are trying to go away? Come on, here, Santa Monica." (laughter) And when you become detestful either this Santa Monica or any Monica, "I am not interested," then your spiritual life is... *Jagannātha*-suta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when I was in New York recently to check the color printing of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, 7.2, we were presented with two awards which your books had won for color and design, two awards from the Printing Industries of Metropolitan New York. They gave us big wooden plaques with a certificate of excellence, yes, for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and for Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Hṛdayānanda: You should show Prabhupāda, bring him those plaques. *Jagannātha*-suta: Yes, we have those plaques hanging up in the Press building now. Prabhupāda: Hm. Bring it, I shall see. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...diminution on this path of devotional service, nehābhikrama*-nāśo'sti [Bg. 2.40]. So does that mean that once one enters the material world, there's only progress in going back to Godhead, although it may be slow, over many lifetimes? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. One is going slow, one is finishing very rapidly. If one is serious, he can finish very rapidly. If one is not serious, it will take time. Rāmeśvara: [break] ...contests and get all sorts of awards and recognition. Because no one has such beautiful books. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. Rāmeśvara: We have also won awards for Back to Godhead, the cover design. Prabhupāda: Cover designs? Mahendra: They like the cover, but they're afraid to look inside. Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, at the time of death, when the soul leaves the body, at that time the body is destroyed. So at the time of sleeping, when the soul leaves the body, how is the body maintained? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Rādhāvallabha: At the time of sleeping, when the soul leaves the body, why is the body not destroyed at that time? Prabhupāda: Why? Suppose you have left the car; does that mean it is destroyed? You are going again. Rādhāvallabha: But at the time of death it is destroyed when you leave it. Prabhupāda: Death is different. When the car is no more usable, that is death. But we are returning to the car because we know that it is usable. And if we know that it is useless, we don't go to that car. That is death. Yadubara: Śrīla Prabhupāda. At the time of sleeping, there is a subtle reality that the subtle body enters into? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reality means as you take this awakening vision as reality, similarly, the dream vision is also real.... Nothing, none of them are reality. They are all temporary. Yadubara: But that subtle reality is just as real as this gross reality? Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll not stay. This reality will not stay. Hari-śauri: It's all a dreamlike existence. *Prabhupāda: Yes, simply a long duration dream. Do you think this skyscraper building will stay? Nothing will stay. It may stay for five hundred years or five thousand years. But is it not permanent. Anything you take*-the trees, this land, nothing; even this ocean. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. It appears again and again disappears, that's all. Everything. The material world means that. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate. Vyaktāvyaktam. Sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. This town is manifested, and one big wave of sea, it will be nonmanifested, immediately. Yadubara: So that subtle reality is existing side by side with this gross reality. Prabhupāda: Reality is in the spiritual world. This is imitation reality. Real reality is in the spiritual world. *Hari-śauri: We have to go left here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause) The material universes are like a produce of Mahā*-Viṣṇu. *Prabhupāda: A big dream, that's all. Material existence means a big dream. How long you'll dream? So long you are in this body. And as long as the body is finished, your dream is finished. Your nation, your society, your friends, your money, your bank, everything finished. Is it not a dream? Then dream another*-you become cats and dogs or demigods. You dream in a different way. You are now dreaming as American; next life you may dream something else. Bharadvāja: So every man has his own world that he's living in? *Prabhupāda: Eh? He creates his own world. Nothing is own-temporary*-he creates, and Kṛṣṇa gives him the opportunity, "All right, you enjoy." Hare nāma, hare nāma. *Govardhana*-dhārī: While doing books we create an atmosphere sometimes, the devotees..., Kṛṣṇa gives us the intelligence to give the spiritual world to these living entities. How can we always stay on that transcendental platform, to make them see this? [break] (in car:) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If the soul is the living force, if the soul actually leaves the body, how the body will be..., work. Rāmeśvara: There's some connection still. When the soul is..., when the body..., when you are dreaming, and the soul leaves the body, but still there must be some connection between the soul... *Prabhupāda: Connection is there, just like you leave your car, you keep the engine going on*-gug gug gug gug gug gug-but you are not there. The engine, you keep it started. Rāmeśvara: Somehow the soul's influence is still there. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You make that engine keeping*-gug gug gug gug. If you like you can stop. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it actually Kṛṣṇa who's maintaining the life in the body then? The life of the body is maintained by Kṛṣṇa or by the individual jīva? *Prabhupāda: No, by Kṛṣṇa. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's property. You are thinking, "It is mine." Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. I am the proprietor of this body, but another body is there. He is the proprietor of all the bodies. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. The landlord, he's the proprietor. You are occupier, that's all. Rāmeśvara: Oh. So the Lord in the heart is keeping that body for that jīva, so that when he's finished dreaming he comes back to it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: It's actually the Lord that's keeping it. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Rāmeśvara: ...the engine going. Prabhupāda: Maybe driver. Driver is left. Rāmeśvara: Driver is left. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Like chauffeur. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Kṛṣṇa has unlimited energies. Yesterday you were explaining in your garden to that priest that Kṛṣṇa, He says, Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the father of all living entities." And you were saying, "Who can challenge this or deny it?" Now someone can say that there is contradiction, if there is some contradiction in Kṛṣṇa's statement, therefore... Prabhupāda: Who can deny? Who can contradict this? That is my challenge. The contradiction is not valid. Who can contradict it? That is my challenge. Rāmeśvara: Well, say in some philosophy... Prabhupāda: Just like a father, a real father can say, "I am the father." Who can challenge? Father is one. Who can? Nobody can say "No, you are not father, he's father." No. The real father is father. Father cannot be replaced. Rāmeśvara: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose real father says, "I am the father of this boy." Who will challenge it? Rāmeśvara: Someone who does not believe my father. Prabhupāda: That means he's a rascal. But father cannot be changed. He does not know; he challenges, that's all. How the father can be changed? Father is one. Rāmeśvara: We say that Kṛṣṇa is all good. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: And then the materialist says, "If Kṛṣṇa is all good, then how is there any evil?" Prabhupāda: Evil is you. Rāmeśvara: But everything comes from Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything comes from.... Yes. If.... You have created a situation. So for your satisfaction, Kṛṣṇa has given you the chance, but that is evil, what you have created. Rāmeśvara: But I have this propensity because I am part of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. When you come under māyā, you have got so many propensities. So as soon as you disobey Kṛṣṇa, the māyā is there. Kṛṣṇa*-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare (Prema-vivarta), immediately. Just like darkness and light. As soon as you give up light, you come to darkness. There is no second alternative. Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa is the friend of everyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: So why does He allow me to have this independence? Prabhupāda: No, that is His.... Why not? Rāmeśvara: Because it is not good for me. Prabhupāda: Then you are not perfectly Kṛṣṇa's aṁśa. Kṛṣṇa has got independence. You see one son is born, even a father has got a black spot here, sometimes the son has got black spot. Rāmeśvara: But if it's not good for me, if I will misuse it, why would Kṛṣṇa give it to me anyway? *Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore the demand is "You surrender, rascal. You are suffering, you surrender. That is your good..." Therefore He comes, He loves His sons, "You rascals, why you are creating plans? You come here. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. I shall give you all comforts." Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa knows everything in the past, and everything in the future. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: So when Kṛṣṇa.... Kṛṣṇa knows that I will misuse my independence, but still He gives me independence. Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Rāmeśvara: Even though it is bad for me. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You say Kṛṣṇa knows you are going to misuse your independence. *Rāmeśvara: Because He knows everything in the past and everything in the future. So He must.... Kṛṣṇa is all*-knowing. Prabhupāda: This present, future, means, just like a father knows the..., how the child is. Now if the child changes, and touches the fire, Kṛṣṇa knows it will burn. He knew when the child did not touch the fire, his future. And when he touched the fire, Kṛṣṇa knew the result. So He always knows. His position is to know the future. He's always.... Now you are changing, what is the future due to your little independence? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So can you actually say that Kṛṣṇa knows you'll misuse your independence? He knows if you misuse your independence what will happen, but can it be actually said that... Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...he knows you will definitely misuse... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...you can use your independence properly, it's up to you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: But then that limits Kṛṣṇa. If you say that Kṛṣṇa did not know when I will misuse my indep.... or if I will... Prabhupāda: No, no. That means you do not know what is the independence. You can, you can change your position at any time. That is your independence. Rāmeśvara: But doesn't Kṛṣṇa know if I will do it? Prabhupāda: Yes, because you are independent. That is the meaning. Rāmeśvara: Marginal. Prabhupāda: What will the.... That will depend on.... And the result He knows. Just as a lawyer knows that he has done this, criminal, he'll be punished like this. So His position to know the future is always there. Either in this condition or other condition. Rāmeśvara: But the lawyer doesn't... Prabhupāda: Why Kṛṣṇa? Everyone knows. Suppose you have got this body; next body he's a dog. I can say you'll bark. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: What you'll do? That's all. What to speak of Kṛṣṇa; I can say. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was Satsvarūpa's question, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja's question. Prabhupāda: No, this is the answer. Kṛṣṇa's position is always the same. He knows past, present and future. Rāmeśvara: This is Karandhara's problem, this point of philosophy. He cannot understand it. His argument is that he is having so much trouble due to his sense attraction. And Kṛṣṇa gave him the sense attraction, or Kṛṣṇa gave him senses; now he is having trouble controlling his senses. But he argues that Kṛṣṇa knows everything, so Kṛṣṇa knew that he would have trouble controlling his senses; therefore why did Kṛṣṇa give him senses? Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Rāmeśvara: He says Kṛṣṇa is playing games. Prabhupāda: I have given you charge of this BBT, millions of dollars you are dealing, but it is not for your misuse. As soon as you misuse, that is your responsibility. Rāmeśvara: Yes, but he says but still, you'll know that I'm going to misuse it. Prabhupāda: No. That Kṛṣṇa knows, when something charge is given. But because you are independent, I know that "Rāmeśvara is very good boy; let him be in charge." But you can misuse at any moment, because you have got independence. You can misuse at any moment. At that time your position is different. That is this Karandhara's, he was in this position, but as soon as he misused it, immediately, Kṛṣṇa changed his position. Rāmeśvara: He's so foolish, he blames... Prabhupāda: That is our foolishness, that we cannot understand. That is our foolishness. How you can understand Kṛṣṇa's activities? Rāmeśvara: That's the only answer. Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa is doing.... You are little independent, but He is fully independent. He knows everything. His independence is not under condition; your independence is under condition. If you misuse your independence, you'll suffer. Rāmeśvara: His argument is that "I should never be allowed to misuse my independence." Hari-śauri: There's no question of independence then. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is not independence. Independence means you can use properly or improperly. Rāmeśvara: He cannot understand that. Prabhupāda: He wants to become a machine. Rāmeśvara: Yes, he'd rather be a machine and be in Kṛṣṇa's service. *Prabhupāda: No, no, machine we are, but still there is independence. That means you are not absolutely independently, relatively. The state, you say we are American*-independent. But that does not mean you can do whatever you like. As soon as you misuse, you are arrested, punished. Even the president is not independent. As soon as he misused his power, drag him, "Come out." What to speak of you. Hari-śauri: That's like an impersonalist. He doesn't want any individual existence. *Prabhupāda: And he does not agree to be guided by the supreme controller. He does not agree that He is supreme controller. "I am everything." Therefore they are called mūḍhas, māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Mūḍha. He's being controlled. As soon as there is some toothache, he goes to the doctor. And he says "I am God." He's becoming old, and he says that "I am God." Why you are becoming old? God is always young. Rāmeśvara: He has another argument. He says that he's in the grip of māyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: So even though he wants to go back to Godhead, he cannot be freed from the influence of māyā. Māyā is keeping him. *Prabhupāda: Unless you are fully surrender, sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], you cannot do it. Māyā will not leave you. Rāmeśvara: But in order to fully surrender, you have to be free from māyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyā will keep you freed when you fully surrender. If you surrender to your wife and many women, māyā will not give you. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's thinking freedom without Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: He says that māyā keeps making him full of material desires. Prabhupāda: Yes, māyā must keep you, must keep you, must keep you because you are not surrendering fully. Rāmeśvara: Then he says that "As long as I have all these material urges, I cannot control them. The māyā is insurmountable." Prabhupāda: No. Māyā is not.... What māyā is? Punishing, that's all. Hari-śauri: The desire is ours; it's simply either Kṛṣṇa or māyā. Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to rectify your desires. That is bhakti. Rāmeśvara: By chanting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: How do you.... But then he says, "How do you develop the strength to keep chanting even when māyā is making you so attracted?" Prabhupāda: That means your chanting is not pure. That is called aparādha. You are thinking that "I am chanting, I am purified," and finding out another woman, illicit sex. Then how you can be purified? Hari-śauri: One argument a lot of them use is that, er,... Prabhupāda: No. It is prohibited, aparādha. If you chant with aparādha, offenses, then how you can be pure? Hari-śauri: The process is to follow some rules and regulations, but they say, "How do you get the strength to follow the rules and regulations?" Prabhupāda: That is not your business, that is Kṛṣṇa's business. You follow Kṛṣṇa. If you cheat Kṛṣṇa, then you'll be cheated. That's all. Kṛṣṇa does not cheat you, but you create a situation to cheat yourself, and māyā will make an arrangement so that you are cheated. This is māyā's business. Hari-śauri: So it's a question of honesty. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You promise no illicit sex, no, before God, before spiritual master, before fire, and you play hypocrisy. So māyā is not seeing that? How you can avoid? māyā is always there. Yac cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala*-grahāṇām. You cannot escape the eyes of God in so many different agencies. And still He is personally sitting within your hearts. How you can escape? You may pretend to be a very great devotee, but the Person, Supreme, He is within yourself, He's seeing everything. No cheating with Him. Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. "Oh, I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, so even I do something wrong, it will be adjusted." Adjusted, when you are sincere, by chance you have done something. That can be adjusted. But not intentionally. As soon as there is intentional cheating, that you'll have to suffer the effect. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So someone who is in knowledge and commits sinful activity... Prabhupāda: Then he's... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...his position is very bad... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...compared to the innocent person, ignorant person. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Rāmeśvara: But then again he argues like this, he says, "The living entity cannot do anything without the sanction of God. So I am desiring certain sinful activities, but why is Kṛṣṇa sanctioning it?" Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not sanction. Rāmeśvara: Then how is it going on? Prabhupāda: But you insist, so Kṛṣṇa, in disgust, says, "All right, do at your own risk. You rascal. You will not hear Me." That's all. I have given this example many times, that my son wanted to touch the table fan. Did I say it? Rāmeśvara: I never heard it. Prabhupāda: Oh, so, when he was only two years old, so the table fan was running, and the child, he wants to touch it. So I am: "No, don't touch." So, and he was.... So there was another friend, he was a doctor. He said that "Slow the speed and let him touch." So I did it. So he touched, "Tung." (sound imitation) Then I said, "Touch again?" "No!" (laughter) So it is like that. Rāmeśvara: Oh. It is actually Kṛṣṇa's mercy... Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: ...that He allows Him to feel the pain. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Purifies his desires. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But he doesn't have to feel the pain if he's obedient. Rāmeśvara: If he insists. Prabhupāda: He gives instruction. Just like I said, "Don't touch. It will hurt your finger. It is not good." "No, no." "So all right, touch." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned that the more intelligent person can become obedient by hearing. The less intelligent person has to see, suffer. *Prabhupāda: By practical experience. Dekhe sekhe thekhe sekhese. Tekhe sekhese(?) means he's a fool. Unless he comes to the actual position, he does not learn. And therefore śāstra-cakṣus*-one who follows the śāstra's instruction, he is safe. That is experienced already. (end) *Room Conversationwith Reporter-*-June 4, 1976, Los Angeles Reporter: I wonder if you can tell me a little bit about your routine. I understand that you only sleep about two or three hours a day. And do you usually sleep during the middle of the daytime as well? Prabhupāda: Yes. Daytime I sleep two hours, and night also two hours. Reporter: Ah! Two hours at night also. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Reporter: Does it...? Is it more difficult to do this when you're traveling a lot? Prabhupāda: No. I..., my work is going on. By traveling also, I carry this machine. Dicta..., dictaphone. I dictate, and then my assistants, they write, transcribe, and then it is..., it goes to the Press. In this way my work is.... (noise comes from outside) Reporter: I'd like to ask one.... Is your role in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the United States particularly or worldwide? Ten years ago, when you first came to the United States, did you take a very active role in the organization, and I'm wondering whether you do much of that now? Prabhupāda: No, although the volume of work has.... [break] ...a hundred times, but these American disciples, they are helping me, so I haven't got to work personally so much. I simply give the instruction and they carry out, but the work has increased voluminously, there's no doubt it. I came here alone in 1965 without any help practically. Where to live, where to sleep, there was no destination. Sometimes some friend's house, sometimes some friend's house, practically loitering on the street. And in this way were passed more than one year. I arrived here in 1965 in September, end of September, 17th of September, in Boston. Hm. Is it Boston? Devotee (1): Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, in Boston, I stayed on the sea, on the only, but I saw the Boston city. Then I was brought to New York. So I had one friend in Butler, Pennsylvania. Hm. After my arrival, I was received by some representative of my host. So he took me to Butler, and there I stayed for twenty days. Then I came to New York. [break] One (indistinct), one Dr. Miśra, so that is the beginning of my life in New York. Then struggling, then gradually, when these boys came to me, I got some relief. And in this way, we are propagating, opening branches, and the movement is going forward. Reporter: Are there many decisions that people asked you to make, about whether the movement should do this, or should do that, or do they bother you of that now, or are you just busy writing and translating? *Prabhupāda: No, we do not accept any*-what is called?-defective suggestion. We do not accept. We have got our program. This program is coming directly from Kṛṣṇa. The Bhagavad-gītā is there. Reporter: OK. Prabhupāda: So we are simply giving a practical set(?) of the instruction of *Gītā*. This is our business. We don't manufacture any imaginative thing. Rāmeśvara: His idea.... His question, Prabhupāda, is also, suppose someone wants to buy a farm or wants to do some new project. Do they ask your permission first? Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole society is going on under my direction. Whatever they do, they take my permission and they put into (indistinct). Nothing is allowed without my permission. *Reporter: I wonder if you might have any opinions on some of the leaders of cults and groups in the United States, such as the Divine Light Mission, or the T.M. and so forth. I'm wondering if you have any opinions on Guru Maharaj*-ji or Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. *Prabhupāda: There are different groups. I know that. But I do not go in detail to understand them. But our..., we have got a crucial test. That anyone who is..., does not know about Kṛṣṇa, he is put into four different types of categories as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. One category is that he is sinful. Another category is that he is rascal. Another category is that he's lowest of the mankind. Another category is that his so-called knowledge is taken away by illusory energy. So this is our test. That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, that Anyone who is not talking about God, he is either of these group: sinful, rascal, lowest of the mankind, and knowledge taken away by illusion. This is our conclusion, and that's a fact. Because a person who does not know about God, what he is? He is animal. The animal has no knowledge about God. But a human being, if he poses himself to be very learned, then he must have knowledge about God, otherwise what is his knowledge? Reporter: Do you have any opinion about Ted Patrick, who I guess you've probably heard of? Prabhupāda: I, I do not care to read these persons. But I have no business, because we are strictly following Kṛṣṇa, our signboard is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So anyone who does not know anything about Kṛṣṇa, we reject him immediately. That's all, simple business. Reporter: Is the only way to know Kṛṣṇa through the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. If you want to know me, then you must know about me from me. You can not speculate about me. If you speculate that "Swamiji is so rich," or "Swami might have so much bank balance also," or.... This is all speculation. But when I say that my bank balance is such and such, that is right knowledge. Reporter: I didn't understand you. Prabhupāda: That suppose if you are speculating what may be the Swamiji's strength of bank balance. So how you can know it by speculation? But if I say that my bank balance is such and such, than you can understand what is bank balance. So by speculative knowledge you can not understand God. When God says what He is, then you can understand. Reporter: Do you feel also that if someone read the Bhagava...? I can't pronounce it... *Rāmeśvara: Bhagavad*-gītā. *Reporter: ...Bhagavad*-gītā and other books, that a person merely by reading these could attain knowledge of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Reporter: Would that person have to have contact with you and learn from you also? *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is explained, there is no difficulty. But if there is difficulty to understand, then we have to approach a person who has understood Bhagavad*-gītā. Otherwise the language is very plain, there is no difficulty. Unfortunately they bring their own interpretation and spoil the whole thing. Reporter: Ah...? *Prabhupāda: Otherwise where is the difficulty? Just like the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, *The beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā is the battlefield, and the battlefield is called Kurukṣetra. So Kurukṣetra is still there in India, but these so-called learned scholars, politicians, they're squeezing out some meaning out of Kurukṣetra. What is the necessity? Kurukṣetra is a place where actually, historically the battle took place. (Reporter changes cassette of tape recorder) [break] Rāmeśvara: ...culture Prabhupāda: Yes. Attentive. Reporter: You don't see any slowing down of the impact of... Prabhupāda: No. It can be slowed down unless we spoil it. Reporter: Is there anyone who is designated to succeed you as the primary teacher of the movement? Prabhupāda: I am training some, I mean to say, advanced students so that they may be very easily take up the charge. I have made them GBC. They are under my direct training, and I think they will be able to conduct this movement. Reporter: Do you expect to name one person as your successor or have you already? Prabhupāda: That I am not contemplating now. But there is no need of one person. As other things are managed, but by committee, so this can also be managed, and the committee may elect one person as chief. As, just like in the democracy there are senators and there is president, so it may be I may nominate or they can nominate. Reporter: Do you feel are you in good health now? You look it. Prabhupāda: Yes. After all, of course I am some eighty, eighty years old. And I complete eighty years next September. So the age is there, although I am feeling not aged by..., the effect of age must be there. Reporter: I didn't understand that. Rāmeśvara: He says although.... Prabhupāda says although he's not feeling aged, the effect of age is there. Reporter: When I interviewed you perhaps five or six years ago, it was before there were reports of the astronauts landing on the moon, and I asked you at that time if you thought, what you thought about it, and you said that, as I recall, that they would not be able to land or explore, because spirits or creatures that lived on the moon would not allow it. The reports of course said that indeed people did land and explore and return safely. I understand you have further thoughts about that (laughter) and you've even written a lot about it. I wonder if you could tell me, not at great length perhaps, but what your belief about those events is. *Prabhupāda: Yes. From the.... That question I was discussing the other day. In the common sense, gross sense, that all over the world, they accept Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, in this way Saturday last. So why these arrangement? Sunday first and Monday second, and nobody could reply it. But as a layman I can conclude that Sun planet is first and the moon planet is next. So if you cannot go to the sun planet, which is ninety*-three million miles away, how you can go to the moon planet within four days? Nobody could answer me. Can you answer? Reporter: Well, I don't think it's worth the answer now, but I'm wondering what your response is. Prabhupāda: But this is the arrangement all over the world. Sunday first, Monday second, then Tuesday. So Sun, Moon, Mars, Jupiter, in this way. Last Saturn. This is the arrangement of the planets. So if this is the arrangement of the planets, moonday next to..., moon next to sun, and if you cannot go to the sun, how can you go to the moon? Reporter: Do you, in other words, do you believe that astronauts landed somewhere? *Prabhupāda: That is next question. First of all, whether you actually went to the moon, that is the first question. You have to conclude that you did not, because the sun planet is first, the moon planet is second. You cannot go to the sun planet, ninety*-three millions of miles, how can you go to the moon planet? Reporter: Well, except that... Prabhupāda: According to our śāstra, the moon planet is above the sun planet, and the distance is 1,600,000 miles. So accepting that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away, then you add another 1,600,000, almost 2,000,000, it becomes 15,000,000 miles away. So if you go at the speed of 18,000 miles per hour, it takes more than 6 months. So how you go there in 4 days? And you advertise in the paper: "Now, they have reached." After 4 days. Rāmeśvara: They don't accept that the moon is further away. Prabhupāda: They don't accept, that is another thing, but we have got this information. How we can accept it? Reporter: I didn't understand that last. Rāmeśvara: I said to Prabhupāda that the modern man believes that the moon is closer, but Prabhupāda said, "But our ancient literatures teach that the moon is further away." So since we have that information, how can we accept the version of the modern scientists? Reporter: Hm hm. Rāmeśvara: We've got... Prabhupāda: Not only that. Why this arrangement that Monday and, Sunday first, Monday second? Reporter: Well, that doesn't necessarily speak of distance. Prabhupāda: Hm? Reporter: It doesn't necessarily speak of distance. Prabhupāda: That.... Distance may not be, but you have to accept the sun planet first, moon planet next. Reporter: Er... Prabhupāda: Distance is not the question. Reporter: OK. Prabhupāda: Why this arrangement: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday? There is some system. The system is, just like first, second, third, fourth. So it is naturally concluded the moon planet is next to the sun planet. *Reporter: Do you feel*-maybe you answered this, but I didn't understand the answer-do you feel that astronauts did land somewhere, but it was some other planet? Prabhupāda: That may be. Or it may not be also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about that sometimes people ask us what about the pictures of man on the moon? Rāmeśvara: They show man in a spacesuit walking on some other planet. Prabhupāda: That is also, what is called, argumentative. Somebody says it is arbitrary arrangement. Reporter: Hm. Laboratory. Prabhupāda: Of course, we do not go into the details of this. My question is that why Sunday first and Monday second? Nobody can apli..., replies. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda once also argued that the dust, the dirt that they brought back, it did not reflect any light, but the moon is always reflecting light. So it was a different substance than what must be on the moon surface. Prabhupāda: Now, according to our Vedic scripture, Moon is one of the heavenly planets. Reporter: Are there any other Vedic scriptures that you believe speak to a situation that is greatly misunderstood today besides this? Prabhupāda: No. Vedic understanding means there is no different Vedic version. Reporter: But do people, say another example where what you hold is very different from what the rest of society holds, is there something else that would be... Prabhupāda: No. Why... Rāmeśvara: No, he means, Prabhupāda, that just like modern man is thinking that they went to the moon, and our Vedic scripture says they didn't, so he's asking are there any other controversies, just like reincarnation, transmigration... Prabhupāda: No, so far Vedic students are concerned, there are no controversies. Rāmeśvara: But from what the modern man believes there may be some differences. Prabhupāda: Modern man believes, that's all right, but... Rāmeśvara: That's what his question is. *Prabhupāda: Our, our basic knowledge is on the Vedic principle. That whatever.... Just like we are explaining now, veda*-vihito dharmaḥ. We have to understand everything from the Vedas, from this Vedic knowledge. So anything which does not speak acc.... in terms of the Vedic formula, we do not accept such knowledge as valid. Reporter: OK. Prabhupāda: But practically you are seeing that. But... Reporter: Would you accept conclusions from science that..., only if it agreed with the Vedic scriptures? Prabhupāda: First of all.... As you say science. What do you mean by science? Can you explain? Reporter: Well, what the..., the best conclusions of the best people in science. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right, but what is the best conclusion? Reporter: Well, rely on their opinions. Prabhupāda: That is opinion, the opinion is changing. How you can rely? That is not fixed up. So what is this opinion, what is the value of this opinion? Reporter: Well... Prabhupāda: You give some opinion, and after some years you change it. So what is the.... How can I rely on your opinion? Reporter: Would Darwin's theory of evolution and other evolutionary theories... Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. If it is being changed every year or every ten years, then what is the value of this opinion? There is no value. Reporter: Well, but religious thought in India has changed over the years too. Prabhupāda: No. Nothing. We do not change. Just like your Bhagav... Reporter: Well, others ... Prabhupāda: Bhagav... Reporter: Others change. *Prabhupāda: Ah, others may deviate, that's another thing. But the system is not that. You cannot deviate from the Vedic injunction that if you have to follow the ācāryas, just like India is obeying. The mass population or the sane population, they are following the ācāryas. Ācāryas means great teachers, bona fide teachers*-perhaps you have heard their name, just like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. So they are followed, and they are of the same opinion. Millions of years ago, what was the opinion, and that opinion is still there. Ācchā, take for Bhagavad-gītā. And that is.... Not a single Indian who does not accept Bhagavad-gītā as authority. This is besides the foreigners who also take interest so much in Bhagavad-gītā. So far Indians are concerned, even some of the Muhammadans, so apart from Muhammadans, those who are claiming as Hindu, they all accept the authority of Bhagavad-gītā. So this Bhagavad-gītā, they might have changed, but that is not acceptable. Reporter: I think I covered most questions that I wanted to in the interview. Did you say that somebody would be transcribing? Rāmeśvara: Yes, I'm going to arrange to have it transcribed. Reporter: Because there are a lot of things that I couldn't catch, just because I'm not atuned to hearing you, so a lot of words I did not understand. But... Rāmeśvara: I'll arrange for that. Reporter: OK. Rāmeśvara: You'll get it tomorrow. Reporter: Oh, I enjoyed it very much. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. [break] Rāmeśvara: Just like there is this one point that the scientists say something which everyone in the world believes, but you are saying something different. So he was very interested... Prabhupāda: No. Ahh.... I... Reporter: Well the Vedic scriptures say that. Rāmeśvara: Yes, the Vedic scriptures... Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: ...something different. Prabhupāda: The thing is, that is practical. That scientifics statement given today, and after few days it is changed. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then if I say "What is the value of such statement if you change it?" That is my point. And so far Vedic injunctions are there, you don't change. What was given millions of years ago, that we carry. Reporter: Thank you very much. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 4, 1976, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...you say everything is created, he is created, this rascal who is saying there is no creator, he's also created. So where he gets this idea, there is no creator? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His mentality is that of an animal. So less intelligent. Prabhupāda: Animal also knows that he's created by another dog. Otherwise why the little, what is called, cab, puppy, goes up to the mother? *Rāmeśvara: They don't have..., the reason they don't have an idea is because before you came to America, the understanding of the science of God was presented on a kindergarten level, the Bible. So it did not satisfy their scientific mind. So because before you came to give them the Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, they had not information, and they did not accept the Christian version. Prabhupāda: No, apart from Christian or Hindu, the general mass of people, how they can say that there is no creator? From common sense? Rāmeśvara: They are accepting authority, and so they say... Prabhupāda: Apart from authority, from practical experience.... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are fools. Prabhupāda: ...how one can...? Eh? Ṛṣabhadeva: They are trying to avoid their responsibility to that creator. They don't want to accept. Prabhupāda: You can avoid the creator, but you cannot say there is no creator. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It means they're totally ignorant, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You accept the authority of the creator or not, that is your business. But you cannot say there is no creator. Just like there are many outlaws. They say also, "We don't care for the government." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But there is a government. Prabhupāda: But there is a government. You don't like or don't care, that is your business, but there is a government. How you can deny it? That we shall see later on, how you can neglect government. But there is a government. You have to accept. Rāmeśvara: I think it is just in the last few hundred years that these scientists have been given so much prestige and they're making so much propaganda. It's just a recent thing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, formerly it was not such a great majority of people who thought like this; it was just a few. Prabhupāda: So we have to challenge all these rascals. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are giving us the weapons with which to challenge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Transcendental knowledge. Now the Russians will fall also if our books are introduced there. Prabhupāda: If actually they are after something reality, they must accept. If they are actually after something reality. It is natural. They have been disgusted with this Christianity. Useless, that's all. But if they are actually serious, then they'll accept knowledge. (japa) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break]...exhibit of Bharadvāja's in the temple of the Dāmodara and mother Yaśodā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is nicely done? Prabhupāda: Hmm. (japa) [break] ...that he is not my father, that is not possible. Rāmeśvara: They say that the atom is the source of everything. Prabhupāda: Hm? Rāmeśvara: They say that the atom, the little particle, is eternal, original. Prabhupāda: But you rascal, you are not coming from atom; you are coming from your father. That is my reply. You rascal, you are coming from your father, not from the atom. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How do you say everything comes from the atom? Rāmeśvara: Originally, they say... Prabhupāda: Originally, go to hell. (laughs) First of all, take your case. "Originally." You do not know your case and you are going to originally. Hele data nakhe yuce.(?) You know this philosophy? Hele, there was some water snake, they have no poison. One snake charmer, he cannot catch even that. And he's trying to catch cobra. So first of all answer your case, then go to "originally." Rāmeśvara: That's what you said yesterday in discussing that philosopher Skinner. He said first we control nature, then we can control ourselves. And you replied, if you can't control yourself, how you can control such a big thing like nature? Prabhupāda: That is the defect. They are tiny, insignificant creature and talking big, big things. This is the defect of modern civilization. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like a child trying to catch the moon. Prabhupāda: He has no importance, and he's talking big, big things. The same philosophy. Hele data bai nakhe yuce.(?) He cannot catch even nonpoisonous snake, and he's saying, "I'll catch up a cobra." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like a small child trying to catch the moon. Prabhupāda: Yes. (japa) All these rascals should be approached that, first, "Whether you have come from your.... Is your father monkey? You say that from monkey man has come. You have come from monkey or from your father?" Ask him this question. Naturally he will be ashamed to say "Yes, I have come from some monkey." (laughs) Unless he is a great fool, he will not say it. Then your father comes from his father, from his father.... Where the monkey comes? Is there in the history of your family that your forefather... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we are studying the bones. That's what they say. Prabhupāda: Just see. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are digging up bones. Prabhupāda: That also they cannot say, because we Hindus, we burn the bones. Where you get the bones? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but there's some groups that did not do that. Prabhupāda: No, some group, not. As a general practice, all Hindus they burn, from time immemorial. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I mean, there are other people in other parts of the world, like in Africa, they found bones from five million years ago, and they say that it's the missing link bones. Prabhupāda: Missing, why missing? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well they couldn't figure it out until they found these bones. Prabhupāda: That means they couldn't. Still, he says. Just see, he has brought as if he was dog, the rascal. The dog is prohibited. Man is.... [break] (walk continues on beach) ...They have got? Rāmeśvara: Other theories Rādhāvallabha: Theories? Rāmeśvara: The scientists. Prabhupāda: Scientists or philosophers, their only business is to defy God. All demons. *Bali*-mardana: Actually, Prabhupāda, the people are turning away from the scientists now, because they have seen that their promises have not brought anything. Prabhupāda: And simply, if we can expose that they never went to the moon planet, their life will be finished. Devotees: Jaya, haribol! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How can we expose that, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: To expose.... They could not answer this simple question, why Sunday first and Monday second? They could not understand, these rascals, I have asked so many. Can you answer this? Can you answer, can any of you, why Sunday first? All over the world, they accept Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Saturday last. Why? Answer this. Is there anyone? Hṛdayānanda: What is the answer, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: The answer is sun planet first, then moon planet. Devotees: Oh, jaya! *Prabhupāda: And the sun planet is ninety*-three million miles, and according to Bhāgavata, the moon is 1,600,000 miles away from sun. So I have calculated the other day that it takes ninety days, no? Hari-śauri: No, six or seven months. Prabhupāda: Six or seven months it takes to go to the moon planet. How they have gone in four days? They have never gone. Devotees: Oh, jaya! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How did you get that calculation, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How did you make that calculation? *Prabhupāda: Calculation, they have calculation that sun planet is ninety*-three million miles from, that is, they have accepted. I also accept it. I say the moon planet is 1,600,000 miles still further. So you cannot go to the sun planet, how can go to the moon planet? Devotees: Jaya. Candanācārya: Today is the day of scandals. These days, there are so many scandals in the United States. Prabhupāda: Ask them. If they say moon planet is first, why not Monday first? Why Sunday first? That's a fact. Sun planet first, then moon, then Mars. Ravi, Soma, Maṅgala, Bhū. That is the calculation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means that all the countries are cooperating together to cheat the people, because they're all... Prabhupāda: No, no. They have taken from the Vedic literature. *Bali*-mardana: No, they are right, Sunday, Monday. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I mean to say that everyone is saying that they have gone to the moon, that means they are all together cheating. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhāvallabha: The scientists have got radiotelescopes. They bounce the sound vibration off the planet, and depending on how long it takes the sound to come back, that's how far away it is. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rādhāvallabha: They bounce sound vibration off a planet, and depending on how long it takes the vibration to come back, that's how far away the planet is. So they've calculated the sun to be further in that way. Prabhupāda: First of all, answer why Sunday first. Then talk of all nonsense. Candanācārya: Mars is after the moon? Prabhupāda: Huh? Candanācārya: Mars is after the moon? Prabhupāda: Yes. Candanācārya: Because in French, Tuesday is the word for Mars. Prabhupāda: And Saturday is last. Saturn is last. Yadubara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Each planet is 1,600,000 miles away from one another. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 1,600,000. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: They say they went 250,000 miles twice. Prabhupāda: They say, let them say, first of all answer "Why Sunday first?" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about these pictures we have seen on the television showing them jumping on the moon? Prabhupāda: That you can make in laboratory. That is not very difficult. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Colossal hoax. Mahendra: ...pictures are like the King Kong movie. Prabhupāda: Yes. In King Kong movie they made cotton as cloud. (laughs). They can do everything in the laboratory. Yadubara: They are making that movie again, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Spending millions to make it again. Prabhupāda: Which movie? Yadubara: King Kong. Prabhupāda: Oh. Rāmeśvara: They have got some gigantic King Kong figure. It moves like a gigantic doll. Actually, to make a movie now they spend maybe ten, fifteen million dollars for one movie. [break] Prabhupāda: They cannot cleanse nowadays? Hari-śauri: They made a movie called "2001," and in that they had shots of men on different planets. It looked just like the moon shots. It was very..., just the same. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, it is very difficult to convince the people that they have not gone to the moon. I mean, that's a good logic, but they'll think that's very childish for us to say "Sunday first, Monday." Prabhupāda: Well, let them remain as child. Candanācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda once said that if the moon is dirt and dust, how is it that it reflects the light of the sun so much that it lights up the whole planet? Prabhupāda: Yes. The common sense. They have lost their common sense. Candanācārya: It's so shiny that it lights up the whole earth planet at night. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Candanācārya: How can dirt reflect light like that? Prabhupāda: That was my first question. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that we should write a, we should publish a little book on this, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: If you can. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe one of the scientists. Candanācārya: There are many scientists who agree. Prabhupāda: Now our scientists are challenging, Svarūpa Dāmodara and others. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They could scientifically publish a book. Candanācārya: There are scientists in England who agree that they didn't go to the planet. Prabhupāda: Huh? Candanācārya: There are some scientists in England who agree with you that they did not go to the moon. Prabhupāda: Yes, they did not. Simply propaganda. (japa) [break] Freedom. Hari-śauri: It's just like you said in the BTG. Prabhupāda: Equal rights. The rascal father has left, and poor mother is carrying the burden. Rāmeśvara: She chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa just by seeing us. Prabhupāda: That's all right. There is no other way. We are the only shelter for these forlorn women. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have to give them shelter. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly. Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, scientists have this theory called use and disuse. They would say that these birds here that have the long beaks for eating fish, originally, they did not have that, but after many, many millions of years of trying to catch fish, gradually their beaks became longer. And they would say that would be the origin of that species. Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? Hṛdayānanda: He's saying that because the fish are trying to catch fish, therefore... Rāmeśvara: The birds are trying to catch the fish. Hṛdayānanda: Therefore a beak comes out. (laughter) *Bali*-mardana: No, no. That's not the theory. The theory is that the ones with the long beaks are able to catch the fish. Therefore, the other ones die off. Hṛdayānanda: Therefore they get the long beaks? *Bali*-mardana: Just from mutation. Rādhāvallabha: That's not. It's another theory. Hṛdayānanda: Madness. Candanācārya: It's another theory. Prabhupāda: Hmm? So that's all right. If we are eager for Kṛṣṇa, we shall get Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Jaya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we agree with that theory. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: It has been given by Kṛṣṇa because he always wanted to catch fish. Hari-śauri: They used to give us a simple example at school. They said that the people that lived in Mexico City... Prabhupāda: No, no, we accept that. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante [Bg. 8.6]. If, at the time of death, he thinks that "If I would have possessed a beak," then he gets the life. That's all. (laughter) That's a fact. Rādhāvallabha: They say that this is the way the different types of bodies come into being, that by the desire... *Prabhupāda: That we say also. There is no difficulty. Because at the time of death, whatever you are thinking, you'll get the next body. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Rādhāvallabha: They say, though, that this is how the different bodies come into being. Prabhupāda: Yes, we say also. Candanācārya: But can any body be generated from the imagination, any kind of... Prabhupāda: It is not this imagination. I wanted that facility. So my subtle mind is wanting that. So nature is supplying: "All right, you get it." Hari-śauri: We don't create the bodies. We desire them, and the material nature has created already. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhāvallabha: Their theory is that these bodies never before existed, but by the desire of the living entity, that certain type of body was created. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That means nature is above. He wanted that body; nature has given. Is that correct? Rādhāvallabha: No, not exactly. Prabhupāda: Then what is that? Rādhāvallabha: That they want a particular facility, and... Prabhupāda: And nature supplies the body, that's all. Simple thing. Rāmeśvara: But they do not put a limit, 8,400,000. They think that it can keep going on increasing, increasing. Prabhupāda: Then let it go on. That's all right. What is wrong? Candanācārya: By their theory, though, a human being would be able to generate wings or a beak like a bird. Prabhupāda: Yes, there are human beings who can fly in the sky. Siddhaloka, Siddhaloka. There is a planet called Siddhaloka. There the human beings from one planet to another go. Hari-śauri: They have wings? Prabhupāda: No wings. Rāmeśvara: The Gandharvas have wings. Candanācārya: Why do you need wings if you can fly? Also Garuḍa has a beak. Where are we going now? Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda said in Hawaii there's no.... (pause) Prabhupāda: The old man, her father? Hari-śauri: I hope so. (pause) [break]... Prabhupāda: Send to Svarūpa Dāmodara, he has got also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Monday. Sunday, Monday? Prabhupāda: Yes. Days are in this order. So naturally one has to conclude that sun first, moon second. Naturally. Rādhāvallabha: They will say, "Who has set up the order?" Prabhupāda: Anyway, you accept it. All over the world, nobody says that Monday first. Then? Candanācārya: Is this also in Sanskrit language? Sunday, Monday. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Ask all scientists this simple question. Why, all over the world, Sunday, sun first and moon second? Why? And Saturday last. All of you could not answer this question. (devotees laugh) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have stumped us. Prabhupāda: (Bengali verse) Baḍo baḍo bānare, baḍo baḍo peṭa, laṅkā dingahe manamarā heṅṭa(?). "Big, big monkey, big, big belly. Ceylon jumping, melancholy." Hṛdayānanda: We are all big monkeys. Candanācārya: How are they able to perpetuate such an enormous hoax? Prabhupāda: Enormous hoax for the fools, not for the intelligent persons. Hari-śauri: They never fooled you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: They never fooled you. (Prabhupāda laughs) Candanācārya: That means that some people must know the actual truth about the hoax in the American system, so if we can find them... Prabhupāda: So you are knowing that. State it. Rāmeśvara: In other words, is it, is it that there is deliberate trick? It is deliberate. Prabhupāda: Ahh, it may not be deliberate, but they are fools. They are talking nonsense. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But what about the people, like the men on the ship who say they have jumped on the moon? Are they lying and being paid off, or are they just.... What, I mean what is the actual position? Some men are getting on a television saying, "We landed there, it was like this, it was like that." Prabhupāda: No, I saw that television, at that time, the whole thing broke wrong. There was a press representative. He protested. I was protesting from the beginning, but they could not show how they jumped, at the last. Going, going, going, but at the time of jumping, melancholy. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I mean they do, these men who are space travelers, they say "We did land on the moon." Now are they lying? Prabhupāda: No, they, but the television was showing. They could not show this. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jumping on the moon? Prabhupāda: That was not shown. Candanācārya: They may be hypnotized also. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda said they'd gone to Rāhu. Rāmeśvara: They have got that dust. They say they got that from another planet. Prabhupāda: Dust you can take it from here, from this beach. Rāmeśvara: So then they're lying. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means they're deliberately cheating, knowingly. And the government is backing them. Prabhupāda: That is your business. Rāmeśvara: What is the purpose of the cheating? Candanācārya: Prabhupāda said to ask for taxes. Prabhupāda: Lābha, pūjā, pratiṣṭhā. These three things are materially wanted. Some material profit, some reputation and some.... Eh? Devotees: Distinction. Prabhupāda: Adoration. These are the material demands. Hari-śauri: Because, originally, it was built up as a big thing between Russia and America, who would get to the moon first. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now they are shaking hands, and none of them has gone. "I thank you." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's like the emperor's new clothes. Prabhupāda: "You failed, my dear sir. I failed also. Come on." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a story, "The Emperor's Clothes," "The Emperor's New Clothes." There were these tailors, and they made believe that they were making clothes for the emperor, but actually they were doing nothing, but they were making the motions. So they, everybody was saying what nice clothes and finally... Candanācārya: No, they said, any intelligent, only intelligent people will see the clothes. Hṛdayānanda: And someone who's a fool, he cannot see it. Rāmeśvara: Magic cloth. Candanācārya: So they were getting much money for making nothing. Hṛdayānanda: The emperor went out naked in the street, and everyone was afraid to admit that there was no clothes. Rāmeśvara: B: ecause they would be labeled fool. So finally one boy said, "But the emperor has no clothes." Prabhupāda: Yes, there is a nice story in this connection. There was one Gopal Ban. So he was very cunning fellow. In the Muhammadan period in Bengal. So the Mohammedan Nawab asked him, "Gopal Ban, can you prepare a *Mahābhārata* in my name?" "Oh, yes!" So, "I'll engage so many paṇḍitas, and they will make a *Mahābhārata*, your activities, your glories, everything. So give me one hundred thousand rupees, just begin." He was taking money, taking money, "Yes, it is going on, going on." "Then when it will be published?" "Yes, just last few days more. Now, sir, everything is prepared. So the one thing is, you have to give me information how many husbands you have got, your wife, huh? How many husbands your wife has got?" That is very insulting. "What, you nonsense, you take." "No, that is the main feature of *Mahābhārata*. Draupadī had five husbands, so how many husbands your wife has got? Tell me that." Then, "No, no, I don't want that. I am the only husband." "Then how can you write *Mahābhārata*?" (laughter) "I don't want." "All right. If you want *Mahābhārata* you must tell how many your wife has got husbands." That he cannot say. So *Mahābhārata* finished. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And he kept the money. Prabhupāda: Yes. That already, he took that "I have to steal to pay so much money. Give me." That's all right. So these are, scientists are doing like that. At the end, how many husbands your wife has got. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Scientists are doing the same thing. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Taking money. Rādhāvallabha: They have one argument, that during solar eclipse, the moon appears to pass in front of the sun, between the sun and the earth. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda explains that. It is the Rāhu planet. Rādhāvallabha: But they are viewing the moon. The moon is right there, they can see it. And all of a sudden it goes in front of the sun. Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? Moon is there, sun is there. Now which first? That is the question. Rādhāvallabha: They will say that they've observed in their telescopes..., Prabhupāda: They'll say..., whatever they'll say it is all right. First of all, say why Sunday first. Then talk all nonsense. First of all, answer this. You cannot say "We believe that Sunday first." What is the fact? Why do you bring moon, Monday? Why not bring...? Rādhāvallabha: They will say it is arbitrary order. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rādhāvallabha: Then they will get back to their argument. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Arbitrary order is not science. That you cannot. Candanācārya: How can it be arbitrary if every culture in the history of the planet has accepted that order? How can it be arbitrary? Rādhāvallabha: That doesn't matter it's not arbitrary. Do you accept? Hṛdayānanda: Rādhāvallabha is a rascal. (laughter) Mahendra: Thirty or forty years also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, one man made a little plaster body of a human being, and he planted it in his back yard in England. And then he dug it up and said, "Oh, look, I've found the oldest man in history!" And all the scientists came and said, "Oh, yes, this is the oldest man in history." And for twenty or thirty years many men got their Ph.D.s by writing about how this plaster was the oldest man in history. Prabhupāda: Yes, such fools are leaders. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the business of dogs, digging up bones. (laughter) Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, by calculating the movements of the moon, scientists can predict years in advance when the solar eclipse will be. Prabhupāda: That is not their invention. That is already there. (pause) (walking) We shall go further? No? (japa) Hari-śauri: One thing is, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if they've wrongly calculated the distance of the moon, then how is it that they're able to calculate these eclipses and whatever? Prabhupāda: That I do not know. First of all, answer this. Yes. Yes. They say the moon planet first. I say, no, sun planet. First of all... Trivikrama: (?) But they can see the moon comes in front of the sun. Candanācārya: This is some other planet. Prabhupāda: Huh? Candanācārya: That must be some other planet. Prabhupāda: Which one? Candanācārya: This one that comes in front of the sun. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, all over the world, they accept Sunday first. Mahendra: All of their successes are accidental. Just like they discovered the planet called Pluto. The way it was discovered was one man recognized that there was a fluctuation in the orbit of the planet Neptune, and so he made some calculations and figured that the fluctuations were caused by another planet that must be further away than Neptune that no one has discovered yet. So he made many calculations and figured out where the planet should be, how big it should be, how much it should weigh, how far away it was. So then he told other scientists about it, and they looked in their telescopes, and sure enough, there it was. But it wasn't as big as he said, nor was it as heavy as he said, nor was it as far away as he said, and when they rechecked the data they found that the orbit of the original planet wasn't really wrong either. So all of his calculations were wrong, but still the planet was there. So somehow or other he stumbled upon it, but all of his calculations to find it were absolutely wrong. That's the planet called Pluto. Prabhupāda: Recently there was an propaganda. That comet? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it would come and destroy, Prabhupāda: There was no comet. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They said it would destroy... Prabhupāda: Destroy... Hṛdayānanda: They predicted a comet that never came. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Fifth Canto you wrote that the planets are being pulled in their orbits by chariots. Just like there is a description of the sun planet, and there is very elaborate... Prabhupāda: That is movement. Now, according to their calculation, sun is fixed up, but according to our calculation it is moving. That is the difference. Rāmeśvara: And it is actually being pulled by a chariot and horses. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is moving. Either chariot or on leg. That does not.... It is moving. Moving is the point. Either on chariot or on leg, that doesn't matter. Sun is moving. But they say sun is fixed up. Trivikrama: They say it's moving, but not the way we say, around the earth. Prabhupāda: No, they do not say. Trivikrama: They say it has it's own... Prabhupāda: No, no. Sun is fixed up. Rāmeśvara: It is moving by manipulation of air, just like our airplane is moving by manipulating the air. Prabhupāda: First of all, solve this question, that how...? Rādhāvallabha: You had us on that one. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rādhāvallabha: You got us on that one. Prabhupāda: What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said you have caught us. We cannot give a reply. Prabhupāda: Yes, big, big belly. And what is that, Bhārgava, no, what is his name? Bhagavat? Devotees: Bhagavat. Prabhupāda: He has got big belly. (laughter) And Brahmānanda. Gargamuni also. Acyutānanda, yes. In India? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: These karmīs and their sputniks, they're claiming they're going to heavenly planets, all these planets all over the universe, but you tell us that they can't actually go to these places. Prabhupāda: Yes, if you have got suitable machine you can go. Bhūdhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhūdhara: They now say that they're going to attempt to create a planet that has perfect air, and trees, and they're only charging... Prabhupāda: Another bogus. Another bluff. So be satisfied with their bluffs. That's all. (break, conversation continues in car) Rāmeśvara: The sun planet is seated on a chariot, and it is pulled by horses? They take it to be mythology. Prabhupāda: Why? Rāmeśvara: They cannot imagine how horses can be flying in the sky. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And pulling an entire planet. Prabhupāda: Because you cannot imagine it, there is no such thing? What is the value of your imagination? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you just said by your imagination you can grow a beak. Prabhupāda: If some horses can fly in the sky, what your imagination will check it? Rāmeśvara: But they say that the planet is so heavy and so big it is not possible for a mortal... Prabhupāda: That's all right. The planet is.... How it is floating in the air? Rāmeśvara: They have an explanation for that. Prabhupāda: No. You do not know the explanation. There are so many other things. Just like we say there is ocean of milk, ocean of liquor, ocean of oil. Rāmeśvara: No, all of that they take to be... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mythology. Rāmeśvara: ...imagination. Prabhupāda: But why? Your imagination. You have not gone throughout the whole universe. You cannot say. You are imperfect. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they say neither you have gone, so how can you know... Prabhupāda: No, I have got authority, you have got no authority. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, simply some story books, they say. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Whatever it may be, I can present some literature, but you have nothing. You rascal. (laughs) Whatever it may be, I have got something, but you have nothing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember studying in college about this, that we were studying Indian art, and they showed pictures of people on other planets and all these things, the demigods, and the teacher said "These are mythologies of India." Rāmeśvara: Just like the Greek mythologies. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we have got books, and these books are authorized, they are accepted by authorities, but what you have got? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have their fairy tales, they call it, imaginary tales. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we have got something. I may believe it. That's all. You believe your imagination, we believe this. That's all. Finished. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ours are better. Prabhupāda: Your imagination is also rascaldom, and if ours, it is rascaldom, that's all right, you are rascal, I am rascal. Why do you pose yourself you are learned? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's the point. Prabhupāda: Don't pose yourself that you are learned. Rāmeśvara: They say that for thousands and thousands of years man has believed in God, and as a result... Prabhupāda: That I am speaking daily, you must believe in God, the creator. Rāmeśvara: They say that before the scientific revolution... Prabhupāda: There is no scientific. It is all rascal revolution. If you cannot answer these questions that you are created by your father, so why there should be no original creator? You cannot say that you have dropped from the sky. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, originally, everything came, man came from the monkey, monkey came from another animal, and everything came from an atom. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Come to practical, that you are created by your father. That you have to accept. So similarly, everything we see.... This car is created by someone. Everything we see, created. So how can you say there is no creator? Within our experience we see everything is created by someone. Rāmeśvara: Creative energy is there. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the fact is... Rāmeśvara: Impersonal. Prabhupāda: Not impersonal, personal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But then who created the creator? Prabhupāda: Huh? That we shall see, but first of all you have to accept there is a creator. Rāmeśvara: They will agree, some people will agree... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Rāmeśvara: ...that there is energy for creating. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Rāmeśvara: But they do not give one person the credit. *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Just like this manufacturer of this car, he's not handling this creation by his own hand. He has got money, energy. He pays the mechanical person to create, but ultimately it is Ford. Ford is not creating everything. Ford's money, Ford's employees, workers, they are creating, but the name is Ford. Similarly, everything is being created by God. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. And He has got so many working hands. That is also.... Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Multi-energies, they are doing like that.... But He is supervising, "Have you done this?" "Yes." "That's all. Go on." So how can you go beyond your experience? Everything is created. A child may think, "How this car is created?" But it is, factually it is created. He cannot imagine how this nice car is created. Why child? Even elderly persons in a nondeveloped country, they'll be surprised how this car is created. They cannot do it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. That means they're ignorant. Prabhupāda: That's all. So you cannot imagine that the sky is created, this water is created, that is beyond your experience. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because you cannot do it, you think no one can do it. Prabhupāda: You cannot do it. But why another cannot do it? As I see, I cannot manufacture the car, but somebody else can do it. Similarly, the whole big thing, cosmic manifestation, I cannot do it, but somebody may do it. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are small*-minded. Rāmeśvara: It's like you were saying for this philosopher, Sartre. We see our practical experience is that someone has less intelligence, someone has more intelligence. So we should understand that God means... Prabhupāda: The ultimate intelligence. That's all. Rāmeśvara: So now these governments are very rascal. They are cheating the people deliberately. Prabhupāda: Well, government means combination of cheaters like you. What do you expect more than that? If you are cheaters, then you go to the government. Someway or other get vote. Bribe or something nefarious you do and get vote, and they become cheap government man. And then do your business. Because you are cheater, you have come to the post of prestige and power. What you will do? You know simply only cheat. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So he'll cheat more. Prabhupāda: That's all. You have now got the power. You cheat more. Rāmeśvara: The people in America that claim that the American government is controlled by Communists. They say that these big, big bankers, the very rich, rich people, that they are actually..., their theory is Communist government, or, not Communist, dictatorship, and that they are secretly manipulating. Prabhupāda: What is their aim? Rāmeśvara: Power. Prabhupāda: Power..., anyone who has got money, he has got power. That is open secret. What is the secret? (laughs) If you have got money, you have got all power. Rāmeśvara: They're very expert in making the people think that this is democracy and that the people have power. (static) Prabhupāda: If you can purchase vote by paying money, then where is democracy? Rāmeśvara: Just like one of their arguments is that these rich bankers, they can control how much money is being printed. Prabhupāda: Yes, suppose I stand for presidency, and I take money from bank and bribe and get vote. Rāmeśvara: So they can actually create, by their control, a depression. *Prabhupāda: Yes, money can buy. The real thing is money. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Money is the criterion in the Kali*-yuga. If you have got money, then you don't require anything; you can purchase anything. Rāmeśvara: Purchase justice. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, anything. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. So therefore people are trying to get money somehow or other. Then he knows, "I get all power." The present struggle is everyone is trying to get more, more, more, more money. Because everyone knows if I get money then I.... (static) Just like the Beatles and others. Actually what they have got qualification? They have got money. (static) That's all. What qualification? Singer. Singer, according to Vedic culture, third*-class, fourth-class man. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śūdra. Hari-śauri: Most of these famous guys, they are all really the lowest grade people as well. Very low grade. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, this John Lennon, how he dares to photograph naked with his lover? How lowest class man he is, that he has no shame even. And he's also big man. Press reporters go to take his opinion on certain subject matters. They do not know where I am going to take opinion. What is the value of this man? But people are after money. Why? "I have got money." That's all. Devotee: They hold great sway with the general public as well. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: One of the reasons why they did not want John Lennon to be allowed to stay in the United States is because they said that he had too much influence with the young people. Prabhupāda: Yes, he spoiled these. They are already spoiled, and (static) that the government has done nice thing. What is his value? But because he has got money (static) popularity, he has become big man. Rāmeśvara: So there is this theory that there is a conspiracy all over the world that the rich men to control. *Prabhupāda: That is, we say. If you have got money, you can make conspiracy or anything, whatever you like. Conspiracy I cannot make, I have no money, I cannot make conspiracy. But if I have got money, I can develop a conspiracy with my money. That one man asked, "Have you got any intelligence?" The man began to.... "Let me see." "What is that?" "I am seeing my pocket." "Why pocket?" "Intelligence means pocket." If there is money in my pocket, then there is intelligence. Otherwise, there is no intelligence. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita also said, daridra*-doṣo guṇa-rāśir nāśī. A man may be very, very big, qualified man, but if he's poor, everything's finished. Daridra-doṣo guṇa-rāśir nāśī. Rāmeśvara: So when they come to our temples and they see that the temple is very opulent, then they think we are intelligent. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they are more and more now. Rāmeśvara: The church does this. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More and more our society is getting respect because of the big buildings. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Rāmeśvara: New York. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why, I think your Guru Mahārāja was in favor like that. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, he said that potthor katha ke usa cane gauri ber katha sundari(?) If you remain poor, then nobody will be... Rāmeśvara: And this diorama project will also give us a lot of respect. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got many things, stock. We shall exhibit gradually. We have got many things in stock. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many new ideas. Prabhupāda: First of all, I started the book. That is, by Kṛṣṇa's grace, it is becoming successful. Then diorama. Then I shall give next idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This diorama is a major idea. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Rāmeśvara: I brought the Time magazine people to see it. They were so impressed they wanted to come when the museum is open, to make a story. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: They never saw anything like it. Prabhupāda: Deal with them very nicely. We get publicity. Rāmeśvara: It's very costly. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Cost, Kṛṣṇa will send money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This project here will cost, how much? About seventy... Rāmeśvara: The actual project, without considering how much the devotees live on, forty thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Rāmeśvara: That's the budget for the project, not counting the devotee maintenance. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More than that. Prabhupāda: Never mind. You can you can raise that four times price. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we don't mind the cost? Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the BBT is paying part of the... Prabhupāda: And at least, by tickets, people will pay ten dollars. Rāmeśvara: Yes, that's Bharadvāja's idea, to tickets. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Otherwise, how we will raise the money? Book Fund cannot give. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Book Fund has been giving one half... Rāmeśvara: But now... Prabhupāda: That can be given as loan, not for... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As loan, the whole thing... Rāmeśvara: Originally you told me wherever they go, the temple will pay fifty percent and the BBT will pay fifty percent. Prabhupāda: No, that is loan. Rāmeśvara: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's got to be a loan. Prabhupāda: BBT is, our policy is fifty percent for reprinting and fifty percent for temple. Nothing else. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Strict. Rāmeśvara: But that fifty percent for temple is only as loan. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Except in India (laughs), then it is gift. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because we are rich Americans. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is contribution to your Guru Mahārāja. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Rāmeśvara: (laughs) Jaya. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is our guru*-dakṣiṇā. Rāmeśvara: There is just one problem, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If the temple thinks that they are going to have to pay for the entire project, it is so costly that they don't want to pay so much. They cannot afford. That's why you originally... Prabhupāda: If they cannot pay, we are not going to hang them. But the condition is this: They must pay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe for those who will not pay, we could do simple ones, just with the, a... Prabhupāda: We do not say that "If you cannot pay, I will hang you." No. "Pay, try to pay." (static) In our Hyderabad scheme, we have taken three, four lakhs loan from you. And he has taken, Jayapatākā has taken, you know? Nobody has paid me. Till now. But there is promise they will pay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's good. At least the big temples, Rāmeśvara, in the beginning can certainly afford it. *Rāmeśvara: On a long*-term basis. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I won't even, for New York, I won't even take a loan. Prabhupāda: No, we can forward loan if it is absolutely necessary. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I won't need it. We have the money. Prabhupāda: Oh, this side also road is becoming... Rāmeśvara: All the way down from the beach to downtown Los Angeles. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fixing it. Rāmeśvara: This is going to be one of the main streets in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's great. Prabhupāda: (japa) (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 5, 1976, Los Angeles Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...been a kīrtana leader in his previous lifetime, how could he take so naturally to Sanskrit and chanting like that? Prabhupāda: This boy? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He's just like a Bengali kīrtana leader. He joined the movement when he was only sixteen years old. Very... Rāmeśvara: Jagannātha dāsa has just come back from Vṛndāvana. I think he's going to help on the books again. That will speed things up. Everything is going slowly through Sanskrit still. Prabhupāda: (looking at bones?) Chicken? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, some animal, bigger animal. Rāmeśvara: Ribs? Lamb, sheep. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...kill. Simply kill. Paśu*-ghna. As soon as you become animal killer, Kṛṣṇa consciousness finished. Parīkṣit Mahārāja, vinā paśu-ghnāt. Except the persons who are killers of animals, everyone will be interested. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One good thing is that there is generally a growing movement amongst American people, and I don't know about other countries, for vegetarianism. People are becoming more and more.... I think it is due to our books, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Book distribution, we are educating the people in that way. Prabhupāda: Actually, we are educating; that's a fact. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many vegetarian societies now. Prabhupāda: [break] ...they say, Santa Monica? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it is cleaner there. *Rāmeśvara: Yesterday you suggested that I send groups of brahmacāriṇīs to that farm in Oregon where Yamunā*-mātājī is staying, but I was thinking that, actually, she is a very, very wonderful preacher, and if she can visit our temples more often, then she can.... In other words, it's more expensive and difficult to send so many people to her... Prabhupāda: So, do that. Rāmeśvara: Otherwise, she can come to us. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's also a healthier environment, I think. It's a little... *Rāmeśvara: She lives alone with Dīna*-tāriṇī. She doesn't have much association. She's keeping herself apart a little bit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think, that's one..., there's one disadvantage is that they have a little bit of a, their attitude is a little bit separatist from ISKCON in the sense of keeping aloof, and if the girls go there and live there, they may develop that same mentality. It might be better for her to come to the temples to teach. Prabhupāda: Then make arrangement; I have not objection. Rāmeśvara: (laughs) She has objection. We can't force her. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the problem. And if that's her feeling, then if you send people there they'll get the same. Prabhupāda: [break] Worshiping Deity. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, they're doing that beautifully, and they're expert cooks. They're very good devotees. Rāmeśvara: They could just be so valuable to helping our temples if they agreed to preach to our devotees. They could train. [break] ...brought the reporters from Time magazine over to see our temple. I had Mother Yamunā prepare some prasādam, and she was also serving them, and then she was explaining about prasādam and preaching. So I could understand that as long as she stays on that farm, she's limiting herself, because she's an excellent preacher. She could be very valuable, expert preacher. In her.... Their idea is that they would like to make their farm a little bigger, with more women living with them. Prabhupāda: I like that idea. Rāmeśvara: There will be no man to help give advice, just the women manage it all themselves. Prabhupāda: Just like in Vṛndāvana there is bhajanāśrama, they're only women. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śyāmabhajis? Prabhupāda: Not śyāmabhajis, but bhajanāśrama. Rāmeśvara: So that's a good idea. *Prabhupāda: With man is dangerous for both. I, I have given that: man is good, woman is good, when they come together*-bad. Both of them bad. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bad. We see that. Rāmeśvara: They say that that farmland in Oregon is too small, very small. Prabhupāda: Let them organize that. *Rāmeśvara: Jagadīśa was telling me that there are some boys who are donating seventy*-five acres of farmland about four hours from Los Angeles. It is the best farmland in California. So he wants to develop this, because they have given it to him, specifically to make a farm and eventually to have the children of Gurukula live there. So perhaps we could invite Yamunā. Prabhupāda: As soon as you make Gurukula, government immediately stops. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stopped. That's the same (indistinct). The government can't raise objection. Better to keep it real small. Children are learning, then they are sent to India when they're eight or ten. The children here are doing very nicely. Devotee: The children here are doing as nicely as in Dallas, I've seen. Prabhupāda: Yes, small groups, small group. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, and it forces all the temples to have a community, which is nice. Prabhupāda: Government rascals will come, "Do this, do that, do that," and they will never be satisfied, because their business is to tease. Hari-śauri: Simply to harass. *Prabhupāda: Harass. So that they may not extend this philosophy, no meat*-eating, Then their business will be spoiled. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. We represent a threat to them. *Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore they do not like this program anywhere. No meat*-eating, no drinking, no illicit sex. Then what remains? Everything is finished. Rāmeśvara: Actually, we have many enemies in America. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, naturally. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everywhere. Rāmeśvara: When we printed that Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is Authorized, that little booklet, we gave the names of professors who appreciated our movement, and their school, their college. So there are some demons in America who.... Well, like we gave the name and address of the professor in that book. So some demons in America got a hold of that book, and wrote all the professors letters blaspheming our movement and Your Divine Grace and telling them that "Professor, you should withdraw your name. You are giving your support to a horrible movement." So we have many enemies. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did the professors write back? Rāmeśvara: Dr. Judah got a copy of one such letter, and he mailed it to Jayādvaita, so I've seen it. Very, very blasphemous, poisonous, but it was written by a very educated person. I could tell by the style of writing that the person who wrote that letter was very literate. Prabhupāda: He did not disclose his name? Rāmeśvara: Yes, his name and address. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That person gave his name and address, who wrote that letter? Rāmeśvara: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So we cannot bring it to the court? Rāmeśvara: Perhaps. I'll see. But this is an example. Prabhupāda: No, I know that. Rāmeśvara: It is mostly from parents. Parents have had bad experience that they have lost their children to this movement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's the big propaganda now. The, there's one.... There's a number of men who kidnap, their professional business is to kidnap devotees and other people who belong to other groups like ours. And they're paid by the parents to kidnap the children back, and they call it deprogram the children, deprogramming. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda saw that article on that Ted Patrick. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I saw it in New York recently, our president, (sic:) Ādikeśa, he went up against Ted Patrick on television, big television show, and he completely defeated him. So Ted Patrick was saying that, you know, these people are all fanatics. So (sic:) Ādikeśa, at the end, he said, so, if we're fanatics, then the Pope is even more fanatical, so why don't you deprogram him? And everybody laughed at that Ted Patrick. (laughter) Rāmeśvara: He says we teach our.... I mean he has many arguments. He knows all about the incidents in Germany and Japan, and he uses this against us. Prabhupāda: He's collected all these bad. Rāmeśvara: "Lying and cheating," he says. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A few devotees who have joined him, who left and have joined him, they have given him this inside information, so he tries.... Actually, though, no strong devotee can be changed by him. He only gets the very new men. So now he's written a book. Prabhupāda: About us? Rāmeśvara: About his experiences of kidnapping our students and others. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the book called? Rāmeśvara: It's called Let My Children Go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Let Our Children Go, yes. Rāmeśvara: So we have got our lawyer to start a lawsuit against him, because in that book they are blaspheming us like anything. And this very big publisher, who published the book, has spent lots of money in advertising. And the advertising always uses our name, because it's controversial. They always try to get people to buy the book, saying "Now you can read about the dangerous Hare Kṛṣṇa people." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) It's a good propaganda, I think. Rāmeśvara: But we're trying to stop that. Prabhupāda: America is feeling the strength of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they're getting pinched. You have really come as an aggressor, Prabhupāda. (Prabhupāda laughs) Actually I think we are the most dangerous revolutionaries in the whole world. Prabhupāda: To the rākṣasas. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And everyone is rākṣasa practically. If the government even understood your mission in coming here, they would never have granted you this permanent residence visa. (laughs) Prabhupāda: They thought "It is very nice, the Swamiji preaching about God." [break] So don't read newspaper. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Don't what, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Don't read newspaper. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no. (laughter) Another smash. Prabhupāda: So many don'ts, add one another. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Don't read newspapers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then next they'll make so much propaganda against you. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should do that. Whenever we preach to anyone and we tell them, I tell them that I have not gone to the movie house for ten years, they say "Oh, how horrible! Inhuman!" (laughter) Rādhāvallabha: If we tell them not to read the newspapers, they'll think we're telling them to stop breathing. Prabhupāda: They..., don't read, you say "I am not reading any other literatures." Just like you say that "I have not gone to cinema house." It is another way of saying that "Don't go to cinema." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Christian missionary was trying to convert the people; so they would not listen. But then when he told that, ah... Hṛdayānanda: In hell there are no newspapers. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In hell there are no newspapers, they went, "Oh!" (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. Trivikrama: Coal miners. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, coal miners. Prabhupāda: No newspaper, it is horrible. Ask the health department of government, that "You write on the cigarette box: 'It is injurious.' " What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: We are preaching that; give us some money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we're helping them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, intoxication. And see practically, at least take some certificate from the health. Hṛdayānanda: If they find out that the solution is with God, they would rather have the disease. Prabhupāda: Apart from God, see practically. Rādhāvallabha: [break] ...money from the taxes on these things. They don't want them to be abolished. The government make thousands and millions of dollars by taxing the cigarettes and liquor; so they don't want these things abolished. [break] Prabhupāda: Hm. Dānavīr: I'm in charge of the New Bhakta program in Los Angeles, and yesterday one boy called up the temple, and he was seventeen years old, and he said, "Five years ago, when I was coming out of a store, I received this Back to Godhead magazine. So I took it home, I was twelve years old, and I began reading it. I read six pages, but my mother, she was a strict Baptist, and she took it away, I couldn't read it. I never saw devotees again until this time." He called up. Yesterday he came and joined the temple and became your disciple. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Devotees: Jaya. Rāmeśvara: Just by reading one word of your books. Prabhupāda: What is that word? Rāmeśvara: Any word. (laughter) Surrender to Kṛṣṇa! [break] .... making almost ten devotees, new men, every month. And they're all coming from your books, from reading your books, every one of them. Prabhupāda: Therefore I am insisting, "Spread books." Dānavīr: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was one boy who just joined a few months ago, and he had been reading your books, and he came to join the temple. He had graduated from college and he's been to law school, and we found out after some time that his father, his name was Dr. Royal McClain, he was a very, very big preacher in the South, and he had his own television program. Rāmeśvara: Christian. His father was the biggest Christian preacher in the South, he had his own TV show. Very big preacher, very strict Christian, and his son joined our movement. So the father calls up the son, "How could you desert our religion and join this Kṛṣṇa movement?" So.... (laughter) Dānavīr: He explained how he was actually feeling real love of God now for the first time in his life. Rāmeśvara: He convinced his father that he should stay in our movement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Recently, in New York, my parents came to visit me. You know they.... Actually they didn't come to see me, they came to the restaurant, but I happened to be there. (Prabhupāda laughs) So, ah, they related a very unusual incident that one of their friends is a lawyer in New York. So they were having dinner with him the other day, and he mentioned that recently he had gone to Las Vegas for a vacation. In Las Vegas there are many gambling casinos. So when he was about to depart on the plane, one of his friends gave him a five dollar bill and told him that "In order that your gambling to be fortunate, the first good person you see there, you give this five dollar bill to him, and it will automatically bring you good luck." So the man went to Las Vegas, and when he got out at the airport, one of our devotees approached him, and this gentleman happens to be a lawyer who's fighting against us to keep us out of the New York airport, he's representing the airline company. So he didn't know it was one of our devotees because they were in the regular clothes, civilian clothes. So the devotee said, "Please, we're doing good work, educating people, you kindly give a donation." So the man thought: "Well, my friend gave me this," he gave him five dollars, and naturally, the devotee gave him a book. So the man didn't look at it, but he went into the taxi, the lawyer, and then when he looked he realized-(laughter) he was supporting the enemy. And another incident they related is that they go on vacation to South America. So there were in the Amazon, in the jungle, in the Amazon... Hṛdayānanda: Oh, I heard this when I... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...and they, right in the middle of the jungle, suddenly the devotees were there. (laughter) Hṛdayānanda's men were there preaching, and they said they could not imagine that they were in this most unusual place, no one was around, but suddenly the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees were. (laughter) Hṛdayānanda: They told me they met Tamāla Kṛṣṇa's mother. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Rādhāvallabha: If he gets a book in an unusual place, they always say, "You people are everywhere." Rāmeśvara: When we tell the public that we only have maybe ten thousand devotees, they are very surprised there are so few Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, because they see us everywhere. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Therefore we're the most enthusiastic missionaries in the world. Prabhupāda: [break]...say that all the ten thousand devotees, each of them is a moon, not a star. Devotees: Jaya! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you are the sun, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We are just reflecting your light. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...do the work of many stars. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Ekaś candras tamo hanti. Stars, they cannot do anything; *they simply glitter, that's all. Glow*-worms. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one boy joined our temple here, he was attending a very well known college and straight A's in physics, a scientist. So his parents were a little concerned. His father is a very big professor at California Institute of Technology, the biggest technical school in America. His mother is a professor of anthropology, and she is in the family of millionaires from Germany, German industrialists, so they were very concerned. So they came to visit their boy at our temple, and now the mother is coming regularly, giving nice donations and sometimes spending the weekend. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Dānavīr: Yes. Prabhupāda: So give him nice. He's living with us? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: He was given one room? No? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dānavīr, was he given a room? Dānavīr: We have him a place to study every day. Trivikrama: He also has a Ph.D., from Heidelberg University in philosophy. Prabhupāda: Therefore, I say that take care of him, he's a good. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The other way, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Svarūpa: Now that the Back to Godhead has become so very good in quality, when the people finish reading it they see our ad for membership and they write in for information on membership and they are becoming our members, which means that each month they pledge donations, and they are on our mailing list. They receive newsletters, we even send them prasāda in the mail. And now we've got 250 members each month donating to the Book Trust.... Altogether are donating four thousand dollars each month, and it is increasing. Prabhupāda: So increase the number of Back to Godhead. Svarūpa: Yes. As the quantity and quality increases in Back to Godhead, the membership program is increasing, and orders for the literature through Back to Godhead increases. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's our best means of advertising, that magazine. Mahendra: Every day, the mail order department is delivering to the airport, or to the post office, a big stack of books to be mailed out. Prabhupāda: So why not ask them to make a post office here, ISKCON post office? Svarūpa: Each day fifty letters are coming. Some are inquiries, some are orders. [break] ...program Prabhupāda, we continue writing letters to these people, until they become devotees. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Svarūpa: And last year thirty became devotees. They wrote us letters saying that they have moved into a temple and that they are very happy now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa, he does all this writing; he's the secretary. He keeps correspondence with all of these people every month. Rāmeśvara: In your book, there is an invitation in every book: "For more information, write to the secretary." Prabhupāda: Yes, I've seen. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is Svarūpa. He does all this. Prabhupāda: [break] ...avasthiti. When one remains in svarūpa, that is called mukti. (laughter) Svarūpeṇa avasthitiḥ. [break] The best place in Los Angeles for walking. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. This is the best place in Los Angeles for walking. Prabhupāda: [break] ...still the sea beach is here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very clean. Rādhāvallabha: It was Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja's idea to come here. Rāmeśvara: We've been planning for some time to prepare one flyer advertising our Vṛndāvana guesthouse, because every year college professors take students to India. They all go to see the Taj Mahal, so they pass through Mathurā, so they can easily stop. Prabhupāda: Agra they must go. Every foreigner, they go to Agra. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Agra. Rāmeśvara: So we want to make some propaganda, and Air India will help us distribute it. So the question is, these students and professors, they cannot control their senses from smoking and so on. So do we want to allow them to stay in our guesthouse, because it is certain that they will smoke in their room. Prabhupāda: That is very difficult thing. Rāmeśvara: That is the only question, and then if you think it is all right that we still invite them, then we can prepare this flyer. Prabhupāda: You, first of all you GBC think, then and (act?) Make one room, smoking room, that's all right. Just like a, that kind of restriction is there in the airplane, smoking, not, non. So you keep a room separately, a smoking room. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One time when I was staying in the Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma mandira, I saw a man smoking a bidi in his room. If that happens*-in the bedroom-should the managers go and say this is not permitted? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should. They should go down to the smoking room. Prabhupāda: "Kindly go to the smoking room." Devotee: The Deities in Vṛndāvana are in need of paraphernalia, and.... Which is more important, that the Deities get Their paraphernalia, or should the money be used... Prabhupāda: What is that paraphernalia? Who are asking? Devotee: Who asked me? I'm asking you which is more important. Prabhupāda: I'll have to .... If you want to give some money, you transfer to the Bank of America, account number 1606. *Rāmeśvara: The Māyāpura*-Vṛndāvana Trust Fund? Oh. Prabhupāda: Yes. And let me know that "I've transferred so much money." Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then I will do it. Jagannātha: The Deity pūjā has been improving in Vṛndāvana. Right now Nitāi is the head pūjārī there. Prabhupāda: Then it's all right? Jagannātha: And he is making many improvements. Prabhupāda: No. He can, all of you can if you like. Rāmeśvara: This is, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Allen, who is becoming very enthusiastic to support our movement. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Rāmeśvara: His wife is very, very devoted. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: She is always insisting that he give more. [break] (in car:) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about July? Rāmeśvara: And this month, coming up, at the end of June, we are printing one million copies, just for one month's sale. For this Bicentennial celebration. There'll be so many people coming to the parks and monuments to observe this event. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...Kolan(?), the paper, most important theistic paper in India. And during Harivan Prasada's time, they were selling all ninety*-five thousand. Between one lakh, nine thousands. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nine thousand. Now it is ten times that. That organization now is finished. Prabhupāda: Yes. There was no life. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: But it was a good organization, that's all. On account of good organization, it was going on. But there was no life. The Marwaris, they can organize business very nicely. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: First*-class, yes. Same thing with even someone like Swami Chinmoyananda's group. It is organized nicely, but there is no... Prabhupāda: No, no more organization also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Prabhupāda: Organization is also finished. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Jaya. *Prabhupāda: Mean.... Dead life organization, how long it will go on? Aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka*-rañjanam... If this body is dead, how long keep it alive by simply painting? Is it possible? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: It will decompose. Rāmeśvara: So then everything, the church, everything. *Prabhupāda: Artificially.... Gundan camas kapalethabada*-masa. (?) By artificial means you can keep a thing alive for six months. But what is destiny, that will go on all the time. Baḍa māsa. Baḍa māsa: "all the year." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like that girl's body. Prabhupāda: Gundan camas kapalethabada... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was one girl that had some disease, she was unconscious for how long? A year and a half? Rāmeśvara: She was, practically speaking, dead, but by artificial means, they kept the heart pumping. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For one and a half years. Rāmeśvara: And they thought that "If I pull out the electrical plug on this machine, then it will be murder." She was already dead, and the doctors fixed this machine to keep her heart.... Now they were afraid of pull out the plug. Prabhupāda: Not dead. Not dead. Dead cannot be continued by electricity. That is not possible. Hari-śauri: Spirit soul was still there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The soul was still there, but not in that condition. Rāmeśvara: So then there was no movement, no thinking, everything was... Prabhupāda: Unconscious, that may be. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Terrible karma, like a tree. Hari-śauri: I remember reading in England there was somebody that had been in a coma for seventeen years. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: They had been in a coma, in a hospital, for seventeen years. Prabhupāda: Seventeen years? Hari-śauri: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bad karma. Prabhupāda: And still he was taken care of? Hari-śauri: Hm. Prabhupāda: Good patient. (laughter) And then after? He revived? Hari-śauri: No. He was still in a coma. It was just an article that he'd been in a coma for so long, and there was no hope that he would revive or anything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That description you give in the *Bhāgavatam*, Śrīla Prabhupāda, at the time of death.... It's in the Fourth Canto. It's very, very graphic. During that Purañjana, the story of Purañjana, how the fire starts to build, an attack is given on the kingdom. Oh, boy, anyone who reads that will become very much... Rāmeśvara: Sober. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...sobered up. These books are a real slap. They make you awake very quickly. We always.... I used to lecture from that to the new men to bring them out of their māyā quickly. People don't like to think of death. They try to forget it. It's so fearful to them. And that brings all of the horrors of death very graphically in front of them. You describe how the soul is kept.... The body is burning like a big fire, and the soul is trying to get out, but all of the holes are blocked. Just like a man in a house that's burning and he can't get out. Fearful condition. Rāmeśvara: [break] ...numbers of men, big temples, it is all due to our books, to your books. So I was thinking that if one day this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement becomes so powerful that even it is giving instruction to governments, that will also be because of... Prabhupāda: That is very easy. If you increase the number of your devotees, government hears you(?). That is not very difficult thing. Simply you have to increase our supporters; then the government is there. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, although the actual number of initiated devotees is still few, there is a growing, ever*-growing number of sympathizers. Prabhupāda: Supporters, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tremendous number, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So you make good supporter, then government is yours. Rāmeśvara: Then it's all based on selling your books more and more. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: That is the principal way to increase our supporters and thus deliver the whole world. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When people ask me, "How many members do you have, how many people?" I don't answer any more "Five thousand," or something like that. Now I tell them many millions. Because the thing is when they ask, when you ask someone how many Christians are there in America, of such and such sect, they don't mean priests, they mean also the people who are coming. Rāmeśvara: Congregation. Prabhupāda: Congregation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should give that number, not as five thousand, but as so and so many millions. Prabhupāda: That I say, when people ask me that how many followers you have got in India.... They're wholesale. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole country. Rāmeśvara: The whole country. Yes. Hari-śauri: Yes. That man was amazed when on the plane when he asked me, he said, "How many members of your religion are there?" So I said, "Well, in India there are hundreds of millions." He couldn't imagine it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what we should say, two million, like that. American, five hundred thousand. Why should we say five thousand? Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Before you were mentioning that we should start to try to get on friendly terms with some of these governmental people. Would that be done in the same way as they do in India? Just like we have so many government ministers that have become life members and things like that. Is that possible to do in America? Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many government men. Why not? Human psychology is the same. How many lines in...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many lanes. Rāmeśvara: Four lanes. Prabhupāda: That is biggest. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, there is a highway with six lanes, and there's even some with seven. Yes, fourteen lanes. In other words, fourteen lanes both sides. Rāmeśvara: Every family has to have two or three cars; otherwise, they are not respected. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Also every family has to have two or three televisions; otherwise, there's fighting. Because the husband wants to see one show, the wife another, and the children another. So at least two or three televisions. Two or three cars. Prabhupāda: In India also, those who are rich. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Getting like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: In Bombay. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhogilal Patel had twenty*-three cars. Just for him and his wife and father. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. They are spending money to save income tax. They have got enough income. So instead of giving to the income tax, they are thinking that "Why not provide some serfers(?), some drivers, some servants, and repair the house every year." In this way, spend money (laughing). It is good policy. Money's distributed to the poor instead of going to the government pocket. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's got at least thirty*-five servants, and it is only father and son and daughter-in-law. Prabhupāda: (laughing) That's all. No children even. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda stayed there. They gave us much, er, attention. Prabhupāda: They are very favorable to us. Especially the father. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, Bhogilal. I remember when I first approached him for a donation, I asked him: "Please give twenty*-five thousand rupees." I was the one who was approaching him. So then he said, "I can give ten thousand." So I said, all I did is I, just I said, "Please give more." He said, "All right, twenty-five thousand." (laughter) It didn't take very much preaching, he's so kind-hearted. And his son Pranlal was also nice boy. Prabhupāda: Yes. He's very intelligent, he knows what we are doing. His wife also, that young girl. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, very nice. They're actually a little aristocratic, I think. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have palatial buildings in Ahmedabad, oh. Prabhupāda: That, when I was staying there, that young girl, the daughter, she was always taking care, always taking care: "Swamiji, what do you want, what can I serve?" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was a wonderful stay. That was when Mrs. Nair surrendered. (laughs) Prabhupāda: The Bhogilal was coming daily. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To talk with you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Pranlal was offering any help that he could. And they gave our, the secretaries were also treated very nicely, they gave us each a car. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when I first came to this, to your movement, the first thing I was told is that Lord Caitanya's movement in this age will, like a moon, rise for ten thousand years. I was told that number, ten thousand years. Is that true? Prabhupāda: Hm. Rāmeśvara: And then after that, they will... Prabhupāda: This movement will go for ten thousand years without any impediment. Rāmeśvara: So that means increasing, because it's the nature of the spiritual energy. Prabhupāda: It increases; you should take this opportunity. You work sincerely; it will increase, it will increase. Rāmeśvara: Ten thousand years, there is a good opportunity to... Prabhupāda: Many fallen souls will be delivered back to home, back to Godhead. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very encouraging. Rāmeśvara: You once said that Christianity will die out. We will be the only religion left. Prabhupāda: I do not remember that. Rāmeśvara: Someone told me like that. Prabhupāda: Christianity's already dead. We are purchasing the churches. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means dead. Hari-śauri: And their priests are coming to join us as well. Prabhupāda: See, this temple, this was closed. There was no men. And now balcony. In the same place, the same countrymen. That is the proof. This building. These boys and girls and men, they are not imported from India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are formerly Christians and Jews. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: These demons that are trying to challenge us, they cannot stop our movement for ten thousand years. Prabhupāda: What is their challenge? They have no, nothing to challenge. Unless they are violent. That much they can do, like demons. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That, you think that they will do that eventually? Prabhupāda: No, now people are civilized. It is.... But they want to do it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are thinking. So... Prabhupāda: But on the garb of civilized person it looks odd. Especially in America when religious freedom is there. Otherwise they would have done. [break].... real peace formula, anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's rascal. This is very revolting. "Because I am not Kṛṣṇa con..., because I am a rascal?" "Yes." (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, they don't like that. Prabhupāda: (laughing) This is too much. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even you were challenging their gurus. That they get very angry at. Sataji will always tell me, "I like your Prabhupāda very much. But he is always criticizing all of our gurus." Rāmeśvara: Like Ramakrishna and this cheater magician. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "He calls them cheaters, rascals, rogues, in public." At all the pāṇḍāls you used to do that. Oh, they couldn't stand it. Hari-śauri: That man that stopped me in the street... Prabhupāda: What can I say? Kṛṣṇa says. I am simply a child, repeating the words of Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you always tell them that. "It is not what I'm saying; Kṛṣṇa is saying." But that gets them even angrier. Prabhupāda: We are Kṛṣṇa conscious. We are obligated to say like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That makes them even more angry. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Actually Kṛṣṇa says: na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]*-finished. They cannot bring any defamation. We can say in the court that we are simply repeating like parrot. That's all. We have pledged to become parrot of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 6, 1976, Los Angeles (in car) Prabhupāda: In the material world, whatever you do, the central point is sex. That's all. This is the verdict of the śāstras. Whatever big, big things you do, the central point is sex. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, that's a point which I've noticed. Sometimes when I'm talking to someone, I tell them that "Practically speaking, all that you're doing is eating, sleeping, mating and defending." But they say, "I don't agree with you because," they say, "we're doing so many things. Just like our school work; it is not eating, sleeping, mating and defending. It is philosophy, appreciation of literature." Prabhupāda: Then what is the end? The end is sex. Rāmeśvara: The end is sex. Just like they have these big, big skyscrapers for so many businesses... Prabhupāda: This big, big philosopher Freud, and they're only sex. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but they're.... Suppose Sartre, just like you were speaking of Sartre the other day. His end is not apparently sex life. Prabhupāda: What is that śāstra? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Sartre, Sartre. You were speaking on... Prabhupāda: No, not that all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They just, I found that they don't agree when you say that. They say "I am doing so many things." Just like.... [break] Rāmeśvara: In your quarters, Śrīla Prabhupāda, or in the temple room? Prabhupāda: Anywhere is nice.(?) *Bharadvāja: Are there any other Deities besides Kāliya*-Kṛṣṇa you want us to make for Fiji? *Prabhupāda: Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and Guru-Gaurāṅga. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī and yourself, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. *Bharadvāja: Life*-size Deities? Prabhupāda: You have not seen Vṛndāvana? Bharadvāja: Just the same size as Vṛndāvana's? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bharadvāja: [break] That Deity, what size should that be? Prabhupāda: The height is ten feet, ceiling, ten or twelve feet. [break] Ten to twenty inches. Bharadvāja: Altogether, with Kāliya? Prabhupāda: No, Kāliya. *Bharadvāja: Just Kṛṣṇa. There should be four nāga*-patnīs? Prabhupāda: Four. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like mermaids. *Bharadvāja: What is the special significance of constructing Kāliya*-Kṛṣṇa temple in Fiji? Prabhupāda: They say that "Kāliya lived here." Bharadvāja: Is that true? Prabhupāda: Well, might.... [break] But it is Kṛṣṇa's līlā, so... Bharadvāja: Kāliya then became a devotee after Kṛṣṇa subdued him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bharadvāja: They are both worshipable. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] (continues in car) Rāmeśvara: I was once told that these irregularities in the climate are due to sinful activities. Los Angeles has a very nice climate. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: People I speak to, they say, "Yes, even in the last twenty years we can notice a great change in the weather patterns." People say that. Prabhupāda: Disturbance means sinful atmosphere. Rāmeśvara: In *Bhāgavatam*, you wrote that when there is a great storm or hurricane, some demon has taken birth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And also that it is the king's responsibility to see that there is good weather. If there's good government then automatically... Prabhupāda: Everything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These buildings are churches, but they're all closed. But our churches are lively, even at four in the morning. Prabhupāda: From four o'clock up to ten. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Now there's twenty*-four-hour kīrtana. So all day and night. Rāmeśvara: [break].... on the decline of the churches in America, and they say that the biggest reason in the last few years is that Pope, he issued one big statement against birth control and abortion. He said, "Catholics cannot practice birth control and should never have abortion." So they did not like this. So that is the biggest reason for the decrease in attending the church. They broke away from the authority. Prabhupāda: That means if the church allows sense gratification without restriction, then they'll attend church. That is the conclusion. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're dictating. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The mass is dictating. Same thing as in... Prabhupāda: That means, conclusion is, on account of sinful life churches being closed. Not the Pope, but the sinful. Pope said, "You cannot do this sinful," and they are sinful. Therefore they desert their church. Rāmeśvara: Even the priests, they said that when the Pope issued that document, they lost faith in him as the representative of God. Prabhupāda: Just see. Rascal priests also so sinful. Yes, they're supporting homosex. So when the priests are sinful, the public is sinful, how the church will go on? Churches, they are expecting church must support abortion and child killing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, it is progressive. They feel that is the progressive way to think. Rāmeśvara: And the church should not interfere with their.... That is their decision. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is personal life. Prabhupāda: This is the rascal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] You say no meat, fish or eggs, no gambling, no intoxicants, no illicit sex, and we are all coming gladly. That means you're offering something alternative. They're not offering any alternative. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have nothing to give. Simply denial, how it will act? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes when I talk with Christians, I tell them that "The reason that you're not feeling any bliss is that you're not following the way Jesus lived. We are living like him. He was wearing robes, he was living simply. But you, you're living in big fancy buildings with so many washing machines and this machine, and that your whole life is complicated." Prabhupāda: Grievous folly is that they are disobeying the Ten Commandments. Rāmeśvara: Disobeying. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the.... "Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not be an adulterer." Those are the big ones. Rāmeśvara: "Covet thy neighbor's property, steal. Dishonor the mother and father, the cow, the earth, God." Prabhupāda: Cows? Rāmeśvara: Well, there's one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou shalt honor thy mother and thy father." But the mother is one of the cows, the earth. I mean the earth is the mother, the cow is the mother. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: So they dishonor. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have no eyes to see that actually we are following strictly the teachings of Jesus. Rāmeśvara: And they always say that Jesus ate fish. They always use that as an argument. Prabhupāda: Jesus ate fish, therefore we shall eat our sons? Is that any reason? Jesus ate fish, therefore I shall eat my son. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And where does it say he ate any meat? Never. Simply fish. So we should tell them, "Then you eat fish, but don't eat meat. Stop meat*-eating." Hari-śauri: One of the great things is that they like to drink wine as well, because Jesus drank wine. Rāmeśvara: Yes, he drank wine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he didn't go to the bar. The way he drank wine was in a sacrifice. You're drinking in a bar. So anyway, we should tell them, if you... Prabhupāda: Jesus drank wine, but nobody said Jesus is a drunkard. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Drunkard, exactly. And you can also, when you can do all the things that he did, then you can also drink wine. Prabhupāda: No, Jesus was crucified, I shall crucify you. Come on. You're so pious that now you prepare to be crucified. Come on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you forgive me for doing it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. You take my sins and be crucified. Then I shall know that you are real (unclear). Take all my sins and I crucify you. *Rāmeśvara: In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, you wrote that Vaiṣṇavas like Vāsudeva Datta, they're even greater than Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: Did I say? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You said that Jesus only gave shelter to his few followers, but Vāsudeva Datta prayed that the whole sinful activities of the whole universe... Rāmeśvara: "Be on me, I'll take them." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said, I think it said, he was a thousand times greater. You wrote that in the purport. Prabhupāda: Nature's law is not like that, that you suffer for me. No. I suffer for my. It is magnanimity that I'll suffer. Sometimes they do so, but actually nature's law is different. If you have committed theft, you will suffer; why I shall suffer? Even if I say in the court that "I'll go to jail," he'll not go. [break] ...city in the world except in America, such nice roads. Hari-śauri: The Americans are expert at building highways. Prabhupāda: They have got money and all these.... They want to do it (laughs) (unclear) money. Rāmeśvara: They use these arguments that they are civilized, that they are making progress. Prabhupāda: Who? Rāmeśvara: Americans. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I say also. That you are fortunate. Take Kṛṣṇa consciousness and be the best nation in the world. Simply you take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Indians would argue that "Just see. The Americans are not so religious, but they have good material wealth." Prabhupāda: No. In America, Kṛṣṇa consciousness has developed. What you have done? Why don't you say? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But our forefathers have done, and just see the mess we are in because of it. Prabhupāda: Forefathers ate ghee, so lick up your hand. My forefathers ate ghee. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All you have is dalda now, Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why dalda? Your forefathers had ghee. You enjoy it now. Rāmeśvara: Actually, if we introduce ghee in America, we'll be very famous. That will make us very popular. Prabhupāda: Yes, do it. You have got enough milk, you can do it. Rāmeśvara: I was thinking yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that as our movement becomes greater and greater, then taking Kṛṣṇa prasādam at a restaurant or at our Sunday feast will be like a national pastime. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Everyone in the country. Prabhupāda: And the Rathayātrā also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it will be like going to the ball game. Prabhupāda: Rathayātrā, introduce in every city. You have already got some national holiday? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You'll get everywhere. In this way, one day we'll capture the whole government, and you'll become the president. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rāmeśvara. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Rāmeśvara: You said Balavanta. Prabhupāda: Balavanta may be his secretary. He can.... (laughter) Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was told you once said that he would be in the White House before he's forty years old. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, I did not. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was only to encourage him. Rāmeśvara: Oh, to encourage him. Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: If you bring public in your favor, it is not difficult. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. You have to bring them in your favor. Prabhupāda: Yes. "A Kṛṣṇa conscious man. He's a Kṛṣṇa conscious man. Give him vote." This opinion. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It will happen gradually. Rāmeśvara: One day our men will be leaders of government? Prabhupāda: Yes. Leaders means as soon as you make the public in your favor, you are leader. Rāmeśvara: But they'll actually manage the government? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. The Kurukṣetra battle was for this purpose. The Pāṇḍavas should be on the throne, not the Duryodhana. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. All round, not that we're simply chanting. We're fighting also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Arjuna monks. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We had a nice experience... *Prabhupāda: All*-round. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...in Berkeley, when we started to fight... Prabhupāda: They may not misunderstand us that we are... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pacifists. Prabhupāda: Pacifists, or a sect of religious faith. We want to remold, remodel everything. Hari-śauri: That's something we have to get out of their heads, that we're just some kind of select sect or something. *Prabhupāda: That they'll understand as they read our books. That we are all*-round reformer. Rāmeśvara: They have created so many problems, that to manage their government is the biggest headache. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: They've created so many problems to solve. (apparently reading sign) (pause) *Prabhupāda: South Pacific Railway? ISKCON government means this, stop all these four things. No slaughterhouse, close. The meat*-eaters may become agitated, they may complain, "No, you are not forbidden to eat, you can eat, but slaughter in your house." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Natural death. Prabhupāda: The government is not going to maintain slaughterhouse, that's all. We don't forbid you; you can do at your home. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The cows will die one day from old age, then they can eat. Prabhupāda: Yes, if you like to eat, the dead cow. Just like you are eating...[break] (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 7, 1976, Los Angeles (in car) Rāmeśvara: The religions' editor for one very big newspaper is coming, and he has asked if it is possible he can interview you for his newspaper. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. *Rāmeśvara: So that's all right. He's coming at ten o'clock and then I'll show him around, so maybe by ten*-thirty. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Before the massage. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's right time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...widespread, Śrīla Prabhupāda, very widespread. Now I'm afraid about it being in New York, because one of the leaders has been.... I just found out that he's one of the leaders. He's been in New York for about three weeks on his way to London, and he's a pūj..., he has his own Deities which he has on the altar, which means he's talking to our pūjārīs. I am, I have to get back there as soon as possible to see. They have like a newsletter they send out all over the world. Rāmeśvara: They mail it out? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, well it's a bunch of notes they mail out on a regular basis. It's really poisonous. Pradyumna has been investigating. He got a bunch of their notes photocopied. The one thing I've noticed about the people that are involved with this, two features I particularly have noticed. One of them is that they don't go out on saṅkīrtana. Everyone I've seen... *Prabhupāda: Then everything will be finished. Preaching will be finished. In this sahajiyā party, then preaching will be finished. Siddha*-praṇālī. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What does that mean, Śrīla Prabhupāda, siddha*-praṇālī? *Prabhupāda: Siddha*-praṇālī is nonsense. They have manufactured a siddha-praṇālī. Rāmeśvara: [break] ...the initiation that you are given your siddhas, your eternal position. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are some very strange notes. You should see those notes. Rāmeśvara: Yes, I've read them all already. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You did? *Prabhupāda: They have learned it from these Rādhā*-kuṇḍa bābājīs. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From Rādhā*-kuṇḍa bābājīs? Prabhupāda: Bābājīs, yes. After all, they're fool, rascals, so whatever they say. Rāmeśvara: The dangerous thing is that they are using your book for authority. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Authority, where? What is that? That I've already explained. Why these rascals do not take the lessons of Caitanya Mahāprabhu that we are all rascals, fools? No. That they will not take. They'll take the Rādhārāṇī's bhāva. What Caitanya Mahāprabhu is teaching by His practical life, that we have to take. Rāmeśvara: There is one statement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, regarding devotional service in a reverential mood. So they have found some quote, they are quoting, that this reverential devotional service is an impediment towards developing pure love. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Another place they quote that regulative principles are a hindrance on the path. Because there's a statement that I think Yāmunācārya says. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a statement somewhere in one of your books that when one attains the highest platform... Prabhupāda: Then where is that highest platform? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there's no question of it. Rāmeśvara: One must go through stages. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: You gave the example of trying to get an M.A. degree. Prabhupāda: Yes. One has to come to that highest stage. It is not forbidden. That may be ideal, but not for the neophytes. You must.... One who does not know ABCD, what he will know about M.A. degrees? That they do not know. They think that they have already passed M.A. degree. That is their fault. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's another statement, I saw them, where it says, it's a quote, that you can treat Kṛṣṇa as your lover and Kṛṣṇa will reciprocate. Hari-śauri: And they underlined the two words "you can" treat Kṛṣṇa as your lover. In this way they're taking your quotes out of context. Rāmeśvara: This is one of their main, the main ideas in their philosophy is that the living entity can desire to have any relationship he wants with Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That's all right, he can desire. I already explained: first deserve, then desire. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa and Rāmeśvara: Deserve then desire, oh. *Prabhupāda: You are rascal, how you can desire? You have no qualification, you desire to high*-court judge. What is this nonsense? Rāmeśvara: But then they have an answer. Prabhupāda: What is that answer? Rāmeśvara: That "Let me just try it anyway, to keep my mind thinking..." *Prabhupāda: How you can try it? First of all, be qualified, a big lawyer. Then you become high*-court judge. Where is that qualification? You are after illicit sex and biḍi and you want to be associated with the gopīs. Rāmeśvara: They say that "In ISKCON, we do not..." Prabhupāda: Let them say all nonsense. They are disqualified. Sahajiyā bābājīs, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's about forty of them in this temple. Fifty. There's fifty of them in this temple, Prabhupāda. Rāmeśvara: Oh, really? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Hari-śauri: A women's group and a men's group. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a women's group with about twenty*-five or thirty. Hari-śauri: The thing is that they're going around and they're soliciting for people to come and join their group, and then immediately they come, they immediately take them into all the details of the gopīs with Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Then let them.... Unless they follow the regulative principles, there is no place for that in the temple. Let them go out. Rāmeśvara: They are following. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is their fault. They want to utilize the love affairs of Kṛṣṇa and gopīs for their debauchery. That is a support for their debauchery. That is sahajiyā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the meaning of sahajiyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that's on their minds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're frustrated. Prabhupāda: We are restricting, "No illicit sex." They will put that "Here is illicit sex between the gopīs and Kṛṣṇa." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we can also do it. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Breaking the principles. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: Because sādhana*-bhakti is a gradual process, they immediately want the highest perfection quickly. *Prabhupāda: That is the danger. But if they at once go to rāsa*-līlā, because they are not trained up neither they are liberated, they'll think this rāsa-līlā is just like our young boys, young girls mix together, have sex like that. So it is supported our.... "Why should we restrict to no illicit sex, no this, no rules and regulations? We shall do all nonsense." That's all. And become a gopī. It is very good to aspire to become high-court judge, but how you can become high-court judge without qualification? That they are not thinking. They have no qualification, they have illicit sex, pregnant, going to abortion, and they're high-court judge. Rāmeśvara: They say Ajāmila had no qualification and he just chanted. Prabhupāda: Ajāmila had no qualification. Therefore they should have no qualification. Rāmeśvara: They say... Prabhupāda: They say. Now you accept them as authority, "They say." What is they? What they are? Rāmeśvara: Ajāmila's qualification was he thought of Kṛṣṇa at the time of death. Prabhupāda: Yes. But you cannot think. Rāmeśvara: They want to think of the gopīs at the time of death. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then practice. Prabhupāda: What they will think of at the death, why you are conjecturing now? Their habits are rascal, they're making pregnant, illicit sex, what they will think? Anyway, if we give indulgence to these people, then this preaching work will be hampered. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're not going to do that. Prabhupāda: Or they should be separated. Otherwise, it will be bad example, and all restrictions will be broken. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If they don't change their mentality, then they should live separately, do their own society. Prabhupāda: And they'll do that. (japa) That sahajiyā tendency is very easy to take up. Hari-śauri: It seems like it's an inherent thing in... *Prabhupāda: Thinking of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa līlā, that is in liberated stage, not in the conditioned stage. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I could never understand, Śrīla Prabhupāda, why, I was always wondering why in all of your books you're always blasting so much time on the sahajiyās, and I was not.... Now I see why, because the tendency is so easy. I could never, I'd always think, "Why is Prabhupāda saying so much? Because they're only in India." Rāmeśvara: He's thinking that this is a small group. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, in India, but now I see it's an easy mentality for anyone's mind that can be adopted. That's why Prabhupāda was stressing. Rāmeśvara: And as our movement gets more and more members, there will be more and more people who will be exhibiting this sahajiyā tendency. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why it's in every book Prabhupāda speaks about it without fail. Prabhupāda: Anyway, keep your movement very pure. You don't mind if somebody goes away. Don't mind. But we must keep our principles pure. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I always remember that you said that in the battle sometimes some men may be lost. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is natural. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Natural. Of course we don't want to lose men, but it's natural. *Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the devotee is in the original relationship with Kṛṣṇa, his siddha*-deha, why is it that he sometimes changes his original rasa with Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rāmeśvara: Each one of us has an original relationship with Kṛṣṇa, some as plant, some as tree, some as cow, some as cowherd boy. So if that is re*-established, why should the devotee desire to change it? Prabhupāda: Well, that is spiritual kingdom. You can change if you like. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is not static, Prabhupāda once explained. Love is not static. Prabhupāda: Generally, it is not changed. Just like mother Yaśodā, she's mother all the time, eternally. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The question came in Bombay two or three years ago. Prabhupāda said that it is not static. You can have (inaudible). Hari-śauri: I always understood before that the rasa was fixed, but that within that rasa one may take different..., one may take a different line. Prabhupāda: That will be revealed when you are liberated. Why you are bothering now? Rāmeśvara: That's the point. Prabhupāda: A patient is thinking, "How shall I dance when I become healthy?" First of all, rascal, become healthy, then talk of all this. The rascals are thinking like that. You are patient; first of all cure your disease, material disease. Then talk of all this. Utopian. "When I will get rich, how I shall treat.... I shall.... Then my wife is disobedient and I shall kick her like this," (laughter) and as soon as he kicked on the earthen pots, all broken. Then he, "Oh, then my.... All prospects have gone." You know this story? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was in the pot? Prabhupāda: That.... A potter, potter boy, he had got some earthen pots selling. So he was dreaming, that "By selling this earthen pot, I'll make so much profit. Then I shall purchase another batch, I shall make profit. In this way, I shall be millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife must be very obedient. Otherwise I shall kick." So in this way, he kicked over the pots and (laughs) all of them broken. Rāmeśvara: And in the end, nothing. Prabhupāda: That's all. Devotee: So by his dreaming he, he... Prabhupāda: Yes, first of all be rich man, then do all things, how you shall kick your wife. This is going on. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "My Guru Mahārāja found Me rascal number one; therefore he ordered, 'You cannot study Vedānta. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' " They will not read this portion. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He posed Himself as a rascal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they prefer to read about all the ecstatic symptoms on Caitanya Mahāprabhu's body Prabhupāda: That's all right. That.... Be, first of all bona fide. That is good ambition. But how this good ambition can fulfill when you are a potter, poor man? Actually be rich, and then kick your wife. And without being rich, if you think all this nonsense, you're spoiling time. (japa) *Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, some devotees, sometimes they feel that in ISKCON we're talking so much about the business of how to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but we're not talking enough about Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, kṛṣṇa*-kathā, they say. So that's another reason why they want to read all these pastimes. *Prabhupāda: Then let them read. What kind of kṛṣṇa*-kathā? The kṛṣṇa-kathā test is as soon as he'll get the taste, he'll lose this taste. That is the.... What is this nonsense? Rāmeśvara: Won't it purify them? That's what they say, "It will purify me." Prabhupāda: What you are purified? You have become a, what is called, putrefied, not purified. Devotees: Jaya, Prabhupāda. Rāmeśvara: You can become purified, and sometimes you can increase your... Prabhupāda: No, no. You can read. Be purified. You can read. But where is your purification? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Putrefaction. *Prabhupāda: The books are there for reading. By reading, you become purified. [break] In 1935, our Guru Mahārāja, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, he went to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa for kārttika-vrata. So at that time he was reading Upaniṣads. So first of all, these bābājīs they were coming. Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī had come at Rādhā-kuṇḍa. He's giving some class. So they used to come. But as soon as they saw that he was reading Upaniṣads, they stopped coming. They saw: "They are jñānīs, they are not bhaktas." *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did they want to hear? Daśama*-skandha? *Prabhupāda: Like that. So Prabhupāda condemned them that "They are not living in Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. They're living in Naraka-kuṇḍa." I heard it, "They're living in Naraka-kuṇḍa." *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So our men who go to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa and live there... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: They're risking living in Naraka*-kuṇḍa. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember one boy was living there for about three months, and you got very angry and told him that there were already enough monkeys in Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. Do not try to jump over like a monkey. *Rādhāvallabha: [break] The scientists have found some more brass pottery. So now they say that man first started using brass around thirty*-five hundred years ago. They've announced this to the world. Prabhupāda: Now they're not using? *Rādhāvallabha: No, they say that thirty*-five hundred years ago is when man first started using brass. They've announced this to the world. Prabhupāda: What we have to take lesson from this, huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're still using it now. Does that mean man is still... Rāmeśvara: They are convinced that man used to live in caves, and just recently he has been civilized. Prabhupāda: So what is the effect of civilization? When they used to live in cave, they were hunting animals and eating. So you are doing the same thing. What civilization? Hari-śauri: Except they're doing it on a bigger scale now. Prabhupāda: That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned that it would not be possible for them to find the remains of the bodies of the Aryans because they would burn their bodies. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: So they only find the bodies of the lower class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Similarly, they only find the remains of the cave dwellers. *Mahendra: Also you've said that now they're headed back to caves to hide. By the end of Kali*-yuga many will live in caves. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even now there are people living in caves. Hari-śauri: They were living in caves then, and now they are living in pigeon holes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhāvallabha: There was another article in the magazine that was talking about rats in India. This article was talking about rats in India. Prabhupāda: Rats? Rādhāvallabha: Yes, they said how there's a big problem. There's too many rats. And at the end of the article they made a sly comment about how many people considered the rats sacred. So this is a big problem. Whenever they make some report about India, they always make some joke about how the people will think the animals are sacred and how this is actually the real problem. Prabhupāda: So why do they not go and eat the rats? Then why these people do not go there and eat the sacred rats? Please go there and eat the sacred rats. (laughter) Because you are expert in eating animals, so go and eat the sacred rats. lndia is a good field, and clear their problems. You write one article and send them. It is a good opportunity for the animal eaters to go to India and eat the rats, sacred rats, and solve their problems. (laughter) Mahendra: It won't even cost anything. Prabhupāda: Yes, free. They can take them free. Ṛṣabhadeva: They said one of the main reasons is because they are killing the snakes for the skin, the snakes that feed on the rats. They kill so many snakes to get the skin, therefore there's no way to control the rat population. Prabhupāda: That's all right. It is saved for you. Go and take it. Mahendra: They wear the snakes and eat the rats. Prabhupāda: Snake will die of starvation. It is better. You go and eat. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Egypt, they have been able to dig underneath the ground and find the remains of ancient cities. So this is proof of the ancient civilization of Egypt. But they have not found ancient ruins of the cities of Dvārakā or Hastināpura. They do not have such... Rādhāvallabha: There are ruins in Dvārakā. Rāmeśvara: So they do not accept that the ancient civilization of India is old, very old. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I read one anthropology book, and it said that about 3,500 years ago in India people were only living in all the caves, and they were simply using stones and things like that, very primitive tools. No knowledge at all. Mahendra: But they cannot explain how it was that these people evolved, these cavemen evolved such a language as Sanskrit, which not even the greatest scholar today can even begin to comprehend. It is a very great language. Prabhupāda: That is their grudge. When they see such exalted literature, they are envious. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why don't we cut over? Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, we can walk over this way? There's no water. Prabhupāda: It was all manufactured by the Britishers. To keep their faith with other nations, they were protesting that "Why you are keeping India dependent?" So they were pleading that "We are making India civilized." That was their propaganda. Rāmeśvara: "The white man's burden," they called it. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (pause) Prabhupāda, wherever you walk, the water turns off. Candanācārya: The entire Golden Gate park was cultivated by men. Rādhāvallabha: Instead of planting grass by the roads, they are now putting green rocks. They figure it looks the same, and it saves money. Kīrtirāja: They are also planting plastic grass in the middle of the road. Hṛdayānanda: No opulence. Rādhāvallabha: In Russia now they have declared one..., that it is a big crisis. Because their grains did not grow properly, they are not able to produce as much meat, so now one day a week everyone is forced to eat fish. So they are lamenting. They were describing how..., about the good old days were when you could go and buy an entire carcass. Candanācārya: [break] ...country, build cities and then spend billions of dollars to make the city look like the country. *Prabhupāda: Carvita*-carvaṇānām. Chewing the chewed, again and again. This is their position. (japa) [break] *Rāmeśvara: On the calendar it says it is Bhīma*-ekādaśī. *Prabhupāda: Bhīma*-ekādaśī, yes. *Rāmeśvara: So I've been told that if one fasts on Bhīma*-ekādaśī, that it is like fasting on all the ekādaśīs. Is that true? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ekādaśī is meant for fasting, either Bhīma or Arjuna. But we cannot fast, therefore we have to take little fruits and.... Otherwise, ekādaśī means fasting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If it is possible, should we go without eating at all? Prabhupāda: Yes. But don't lie down and sleep. *Mahendra: Eating mahā*-prasādam is also fasting. Prabhupāda: Who says? Mahendra: You said that to Paramahaṁsa Swami once. Prabhupāda: And you heard from Paramahaṁsa. Mahendra: No, I was in the room. It was when he was trying to observe Caturmāsya. Prabhupāda: I never said that. Mahendra: Oh, okay, I must have heard wrong. *Prabhupāda: If there is service and, on my fasting, service will be stopped, then I can take. First consideration, service. Now if somebody feels weak, he can take mahā*-prasāda, render service. Rāmeśvara: That priest that has now become your disciple, he's joining Satsvarūpa Mahārāja's party. He's very interested, and Satsvarūpa Mahārāja has said he would like him to come to travel together and study. Prabhupāda: Very good. Nalinīkaṇṭha: In the West, people are generally unfamiliar, I think, with the philosophy of Śaṅkara, yet in your books you devote so much argument to defeating Māyāvāda philosophy. I was wondering if it is within every conditioned soul's heart to be an impersonalist. Is it.... Does every conditioned soul have the propensity for impersonalism? Prabhupāda: No, they cannot understand God; therefore it is impersonalism. It is due to their poor fund of knowledge. So most people are in poor fund of knowledge. Hari-śauri: As soon as one forgets Kṛṣṇa, he's impersonal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahendra: Just like many of us, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we were thinking, that... *Prabhupāda: They cannot think that a person, how he can produce a sky? That is beyond their conception. This is their illusion.(?) They say God is all*-powerful, but He cannot produce a sky. This is their defect of knowledge. If God is all-powerful, why He cannot produce a sky? That they cannot think. Yes, He's all-powerful, cannot produce a sky. Their intellect. Poor intellect. Mahendra: Many of us were also thinking God to be impersonal before we met you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Mahendra: We were not attached to that conception. When you explained personal nature of God and the many arguments in favor, gradually we were convinced. But then there are those also who are attached to that conception, like in the Bhagavad*-gītā it says those who are attached to that conception... *Prabhupāda: No, we can see every day the impersonal feature of the sun*-the sunlight, the sunshine. But which is important, the sunshine is important or the sun is important? Daily we see. The sunshine is spread all over the universe, very big. But what is the use of this big, if there is no sun globe? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at these boxes here. These are from different churches and religious institutions. They put their pamphlets for people to take. [break] Rāmeśvara: (in car) ...that in Kṛṣṇa consciousness fasting and feasting are the same. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Could you explain that? Prabhupāda: Fasting and feasting is the same? Rāmeśvara: That what I, they told me. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, for Kṛṣṇa. For Kṛṣṇa, you fast or feast, the same thing. Better fast. (laughter) Rāmeśvara: [break] ...by the devotees, is that in the spiritual world every day is feasting. Prabhupāda: And there is no fasting. Fasting is recommended when a man is diseased. When he's in health, there is feasting. So spiritual world means health. Why there should be fasting? Hari-śauri: And our disease is uncontrolled senses. Prabhupāda: There is no sense agitation. Hari-śauri: No, for us though, conditioned. Prabhupāda: Yes, conditioned. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvam. *Rāmeśvara: [break] In Caitanya*-caritāmṛta you wrote that the kalpa-vṛkṣa trees, they move, they are not stationary. Prabhupāda: They are spiritual. Rāmeśvara: Is this true for the plants and flowers? Prabhupāda: Everything. Everything. They are spiritual, absolute. There is no condition. Because it is tree, it cannot move. That is condition. Rāmeśvara: No condition. In the spiritual world, can trees and plants communicate? Here they have no means of communication, no talking. Prabhupāda: Everything is possible. Rāmeśvara: The animals can also understand and communicate. Prabhupāda: You can milk the cows as many times as you like, and as much as you like. Rāmeśvara: And talk with them. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no limit. That is spiritual world. Hari-śauri: One thing that has always confused a lot of devotees is how is it possible to eat something in the spiritual world when that, the thing that you're eating is also spiritual? Prabhupāda: There is no need of eating, but if they like, they can eat, enjoy. Rāmeśvara: The taste, the flavor. Devotee: But what happens to the thing that they're eating? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Then you will see when you go there. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: This is our disease. When we're talking of spiritual world, we are bringing material thoughts. To bring coal in Sheffield. What is called. Sheffield? There are many coal mines? Hari-śauri: To bring coals to Newcastle. Prabhupāda: Yes, like that. Why should you bring your material ideas to the spiritual world? There is no relativity. Everything absolute. *Rāmeśvara: There is no day or night. Everything is self*-illuminating. Prabhupāda: There is, but there is no need. What is this penguin? No, penguin? Literature? Rāmeśvara: It's a bird found in the South Pole, penguin, lives in the south, bottom of the earth. Prabhupāda: Bottom of the...? Rāmeśvara: It's called Antarctica. Are there seasonal changes, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Rain and different seasonal...? Prabhupāda: Everything is there, but there is no necessity. (pause) [break] Prabhupāda: ...to the USA, many sahajiyās, they requested me, "Sir, why you are going? You are in Vṛndāvana. Continue your bhajana. What is the use of preaching?" Rāmeśvara: What is the use of preaching? Prabhupāda: Preaching. They advised me like that. Rāmeśvara: They don't believe in Lord Caitanya, these sahajiyās in Vṛndāvana? *Prabhupāda: Mostly. They have no knowledge. Material. Prākṛta*-sahajiyā. Their real name is prākṛta. Their thoughts are on this material platform. Just as they are preferring this conjugal love because here the sex is prominent. They are thinking that is the highest stage. What is the lowest stage here, they're taking that as the highest stage. In the.... Of course, in the spiritual world there is such thing, but as Kṛṣṇa has many other līlās, why they are not attracted to other līlās? Rāmeśvara: They don't want to be limited. They think that Kṛṣṇa is the kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. So why... Prabhupāda: That is good. That is always true, but Kṛṣṇa says, *How you have understood Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa says, "Out of many millions of people, one becomes siddha, and out of many millions of siddhas, hardly one can understand Me." So how you have understood Kṛṣṇa so easily, within two years? What you have understood Kṛṣṇa, that is materially understood. You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. That is prākṛta*-sahajiyā. "Oh, we have understood. Kṛṣṇa was a playboy, dancing with His girls. Bas, we have understood. Now we shall..." *Rāmeśvara: "If I follow the regulative principles and go on hearing about rāsa*-līlā, then I'll be purified." *Prabhupāda: You say that. In the śāstra does not say. Śāstra says that after you have studied all the nine cantos of Bhāgavatam, then enter into the tenth. Sahajiyā means they take very easily. "I am.... Everything is all right. Now I am perfect." That is sahajiyā. Kṛṣṇa says, "To understand Me, it will take millions of years." And they understand Kṛṣṇa immediately. That is their.... That is called prākṛta*-sahajiyā. *Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is to attract the living entities to Kṛṣṇa. So let me read about rāsa*-līlā, because I'm feeling some attraction. *Prabhupāda: Then why not Kurukṣetra*-līlā? What...? Kurukṣetra-līlā... Kṛṣṇa's līlā is the same, absolute. You are attracted to rāsa-līlā means you have got sex desire. That's all. Rāmeśvara: I may still have sex desire, but this will purify me. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. This will purify. You are not purified. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Putrefied. *Prabhupāda: That is.... The, this rāsa*-līlā is for the person who is completely purified. What...? When one is impure, he should not think of. That is stated in the Bhāgavatam. Rāmeśvara: In this they have misunderstood your Kṛṣṇa book. Prabhupāda: They must have misunderstood. They are all rascals. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have not even read carefully the First Canto *Bhāgavatam* and Second. Prabhupāda says in Second Canto, "Look at the lotus feet of the Lord." Hari-śauri: I was thinking yesterday that must be one of the problems, that these people have not read your earlier books, the earlier cantos of the Bhāgavatam. Because it says, you express quite clearly to avoid the... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were lucky because when we joined all that we had were your Bhāgavatams from India, those original Bhāgavatams. Prabhupāda: [break] ...otherwise... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise, what shall we do? Prabhupāda: Otherwise, they are finished. Rāmeśvara: We should try to save them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there are so many devotees involved, over a hundred. Rāmeśvara: I can't understand who they are. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty of them in Los Angeles. Rāmeśvara: Do you know? Who knows the names? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa.: Pradyumna. Pradyumna is carrying out a single*-handed investigation. Pradyumna has become an investigator. He goes around everywhere (laughs) investigating the sahajiyās. I hope he doesn't become won over. Prabhupāda: He was. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . Yes, I know, that's why he's doing it. He was once like that. Prabhupāda: He was smārta. Rāmeśvara: Paṇḍita, you used to call him paṇḍita. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes Prabhupāda would tell him he was a smārta. Rāmeśvara: He's always carrying an armful of books. Prabhupāda: Smārta is also counted amongst the sahajiyās. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was really.... That's another problem, Prabhupāda. All of these boys that take part in this Sanskrit*-Bengali translation department, they all become like this, because they read these other books. As soon as they learn Bengali and Sanskrit, they start reading so many books. *Prabhupāda: Āula bāula, kartābhajā, neḍā, daraveśa, sāṅi sahajiyā, sakhībhekī, smārta, jāta*-gosāñi. They are all counted in one group. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing I've noticed, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and I see it as a direct link, that most of these people who get involved like this, they're not engaged in active preaching work, and because of it, their mind has time to create these fantasies and get attracted. Someone who's engaged in forcefully preaching... Rāmeśvara: He has to be more practical. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Practical and purified by the activity. Have you noticed that? That these people who are engaged, they're all in the Press, or all day writing, or something like this. Rāmeśvara: Sometimes sitting and painting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sitting and painting. The boy who's going out every day, trying to think of how to get the books out, he won't be.... (conversation in background) You have come to the hellish planets, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to deliver us. That's all there is. It's amazing enough you have made such a gigantic movement, but the fact that you have made it with such mlecchas as us is what is most astounding. It's like building a skyscraper with swabs and straw. Building a big skyscraper with straw and mud. *Rāmeśvara: In the Fifth Canto, you've quoted from Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura that the most sacred place in the whole universe is Śrī Māyāpura*-dhāma. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: In all the universe. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In each universe there is a Vṛndāvana and a Māyāpura. That means in each universe there's a planet earth like this planet? *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many planets. Each universe full of planets. Koṭiṣu vasudhādi*-vibhūti-bhinnam. There are millions of universes, and in each universe there are millions of planets. Koṭiṣu vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam. (end) *Garden Conversation-*-June 8, 1976, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...next life, on account of his sinful activities he, if he becomes a dog in the same land, then what is the benefit? Everyone will treat him as dog, even though somebody knows: "This dog was formerly our prime minister." (laughter) Then what is the benefit? To remain in the prime minister's post, and next life he's going to be a dog, then what is the benefit? Devotee: Hardly any. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Discuss amongst yourselves. This is the point. We have got a short duration of life, and we declare independence of the laws of nature, laws of God, and do whatever we like, and as a result of our activities, we are obliged to accept a body which is not desirable. Then where is my independence? Why do they think they are independent and act independently? Is it not foolishness? Discuss amongst yourselves. *Nalinīkaṇṭha: That's described in the third chapter: ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā. *Prabhupāda: Ah, thank you. This is the disease. Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. The rascal, he is bewildered, vimūḍhātmā, on account of false egotism. Just like we are inviting everyone: Please come and learn Bhagavad-gītā. "Huh! Bhagavad-gītā, let us go the sea and swim." Surfer, surfer? They are taking so much trouble. I have not see here; *in Hawaii. For hours together, struggling with waves. I've seen it South Africa also. Very fond of this surf sporting. So they are wasting so much time and laboring so hard just to become fish. Yes, they are going to be fish. Because at the time of death they'll think of "How I am jumping in the water, surfing." That is natural. Sadā tad*-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ [Bg. 8.6]. Because he has constantly thought over his sporting, naturally he'll think of sporting in the water. So this gross body when finished, his mental, intellectual and false ego will carry him to become a fish, and he'll have full freedom how fish is jumping within the water, going against the waves. A small fish can go against the waves. There is a Hindi poetry that a small fish can go against the big waves, whereas a big elephant is washed away. This is practical. Bahiya jāya(?) gajarāja. Gajarāja means, gaja means elephant. In big waves, if you put an elephant, he'll be washed away. But a small fish, he'll go against the waves. He's expert. This example is given that the fish, although he's very small, he's off the water. He's under the water. Therefore he's so powerful. He can go against the waves. That means āśraya. If one takes shelter of the supreme powerful, he also becomes powerful. The example is given, the small fish, it has no power, but because he has taken shelter of the water, it can go against big waves, whereas a big elephant, he'll be washed away, because he has not taken shelter. He has not taken shelter of the water. He is, on the land he is very powerful, but in the water he has no power. So according to different circumstances, we become powerful. A person, he was given the opportunity of human being to understand God, his position in relationship with God. So they won't care to take instruction about these features of life. They'll waste their time as a big swimmer in the water, with the result that he's going to be a fish. If nature's law.... You are giving up this body. That's a fact. You are leaving this body. Now what is your position? That will depend on the nature's law. Your body is finished. Now you are completely under nature's law. So whatever nature's law allow you, you have to accept. Your so-called education, so-called prestigious position, everything will be finished. You cannot do anything. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Gopavṛndapāla: Even in this life they begin to take on the qualities of their next life. Like the surfers, they put on a black suit that is very smooth so that they can go through the waves very swiftly like the fish do. So they even look like the fish. And they shape their surfboard the same shape as the fish are. Prabhupāda: They have to imitate. Otherwise, they cannot struggle. Just like they have made the 747 airship. But the shape is like a bird. You cannot make other shape. That you cannot do. If you make the shape of the 747 airplane like a man, it will finish. So you have to take knowledge from God's creation. You cannot create independently. That is not possible. Just like ships and boats, they are shaped like fish, the same shape; otherwise, you cannot run on water. That is not possible. The original design is made by God, and you have to follow. *Gopavṛndapāla: We told you yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about the hang*-gliders? They hang on wings and then they glide down from the cliffs like birds. To make the gliders they had to study the birds' movements for many, many years just to get the right shape for the wings. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, Jadurāṇī, how are you? Jadurāṇī: Jaya, Prabhupāda. *Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, may I say something, add something to this idea that the so*-called rigid flight is insecure? Therefore the rigid planes are insecure because they do not imitate nature, and that is why they have so many accidents with the planes. But these gliders are much safer because they are more like birds. *Prabhupāda: After all, imitation is imitation. Sometimes it is perfect imitation.... Perfect cannot be. But as far as possible. But imitation is there. And the material life is imitation. Because material life means we want to imitate God. That is material life. God is all*-powerful; *we want to become all*-powerful. That is material life. And the struggle for existence. Because we cannot become God, it is impossible, but artificially, they are trying to become God. And that is struggle for existence. So material life means imitation. Everyone is struggling to become God. Even when one is so-called liberated, self-realized, just like the Māyāvādī philosophers, they are also writing "Self, my own self," but "I am independent." That is the material disease. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. He's always thinking that "I am independent," which he's not. He's completely under the laws of nature, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27], but he's thinking "I'm independent." That is foolishness. They'll not accept knowledge given by God; *they'll manufacture knowledge. That is material disease. And that knowledge is also uncertain. One stalwart man of knowledge is speaking, "I think, I believe," and another stalwart is saying, "No, no, I think, I believe." What is the meaning of this "I think, I believe"? We say "You are all rascals. Whatever you believe, whatever you think, they are all rascaldom." That's all. This is our decision. There are many persons, they are simply saying, "I think, I believe," and we say, "You all people who are thinking independently, believing independently, you are all rascals." That's all. So far our position is concerned, we never say "I think." Whatever we say, we support it immediately by some quotation of the Vedic literature. That is our process. So this morning I was talking with Hari-śauri that our test is this: that because it is written in the Bhagavad-gītā that na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15], so anyone who is not surrendering to God, he's thinking independently, so he is either miscreant, a rascal, lowest of the mankind, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ, all knowledge taken by māyā, in these groups. Our test is very simple. As soon as we see somebody is not thinking as God thinks, as Kṛṣṇa thinks, we take him in either of these groups. That is our test. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ*-we see, practically, they do not speak or they do not think as Kṛṣṇa says, but he's thinking independently. Therefore he is mūḍha. His thinking is imperfect, so therefore, he's mūḍha. And because his thinking is imperfect, another mūḍha comes, he says that "I think like this." This is their controversy. So many independent thinking philosophers have spoiled the broth. Too many cooks spoil the broth. Real knowledge is lacking. Hmm? Anyone, any questions? Yes? Just attend to the question. Dr. Wolfe: With regard to opinions, there are the people, especially the scientists, I would say the medium quality of scientists, who don't want to think anymore. They just come to a... Prabhupāda: They are finished. Rather, they have stopped. They are finished. Whatever they could do, they have already done, and there is no scope of their doing anything. Therefore next business is bluff. That's all. Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, may I still add something? In Atlanta, one professor in a seminar said when confronted with the Vedic philosophy, he said, "These things cannot be proven empirically, so we dismiss the problem." He is satisfied to be made out of molecules that came together through chemical combinations, and that is what he believes in and what he works for, and there is no more. He dismisses the problem. Prabhupāda: Dismisses the problem? What is that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But he cannot prove that life is made from molecules. Prabhupāda: Yes, so they no more deal with that subject matter? Rāmeśvara: Yes, that's their point. That because they cannot prove that life comes from life or that there is transmigration of the soul, therefore they will not consider your challenge because it cannot be proven by empiric means. Prabhupāda: Why not proven? Rāmeśvara: They say it cannot be proven... Prabhupāda: It is proven. Rāmeśvara: ...by observation. Prabhupāda: It is observation. That is, a child is growing to another body. So the soul of the child is transferred to another body. What more proof he wants? Rāmeśvara: There's no visible evidence of the soul. Prabhupāda: This is visible. Your child, a baby, is on the lap, and after one year, he has got a different body. The old, the old body, on the lap, is finished. Now he is walking. It is another body. Why it is not visible? Rāmeśvara: They say all matter goes through the stage of development and destruction. Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, this is to be answered, that this child, when he was born he was very small, lying on the lap of the mother. Now he's jumping. Now that body which was lying on the lap of the mother is no more existing. He has got another body which is jumping. But the mother knows that "It is my same child." Therefore the same soul is there; the body has changed. Rāmeśvara: But they argue that there is no soul; it is simply the changing of matter. Prabhupāda: The changing.... When the child is born dead, why he does not grow? (laughter) Therefore they are rascals. *Mahātmā: There was one boy in Berkeley, and he worked for a company that would record facts and figures, and he said every year the Navy would pay this company something like sixty thousand dollars and would give them their theories that they knew were wrong, and this company would supply false facts and figures to coincide with the theories*-make up facts that would support their false theories. Prabhupāda: What is that false theory? Hṛdayānanda: They want to take money, so they say "We need so many things, you have to give us money from the government to buy new weapons," this, that, so they make up false things for money. Prabhupāda: Befool. Rāmeśvara: Child is born dead means defective body. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Rāmeśvara: It just means it is defective. Prabhupāda: That is, rascal, that his soul is not there, therefore defective. The body is already defective, your body, my body, but it is effective only so long the soul is there. Devotees: Jaya! *Prabhupāda: The body is always defective. Either child's body or your body or my body, it is always defective without the soul and it is effective with the soul. This is the conclusion. Therefore Arjuna was chastised by Kṛṣṇa that "You are giving stress on the body. This kind of conception is for the fools." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā*-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase: [Bg. 2.11] "You are talking like a very learned man, but a learned man knows always that this body is defective, either living or dead." The same body. Dead means the soul is not there, and living means the soul is there. The two conditions, effective and defective, is depending on the soul. The soul is important. You have to understand what is that soul. That is knowledge. Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. To understand the truth, what is the truth there, that without something this body is dead, no more value, and with that something the body is so valuable. So one who is intelligent, he'll try to find out what is that truth. Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, I told a friend, he's been a friend over the years, I tried to bring it home to him that we are not our body, and he said, "Oh, yes, and I cannot get away from the physical idea that I am this," and I said, "Your father is very sick now, and he may die at any time," he's very fond of his father, and when the father is dead and lying there on the floor and after few days he begins to smell, I asked him, "Is that still your father?" He had no answer for that. Prabhupāda: Nobody can answer. They simply falsely argue. Therefore less intelligent. Mūḍha. If he was intelligent, then he would immediately accept the Kṛṣṇa's teachings, beginning with dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. On account of the soul, the body is changing, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. The body is sometimes child, sometimes boy, sometimes young man, sometimes old man, sometimes diseased, sometimes healthy. All these terms are there on account of presence of the soul. If the soul is not there, then it is simply a lump of matter, and it is going to decompose into matter again, and then it will smell, either you have to throw it for being eaten by the vultures or you can bury it under some ceremony or you can burn it. Three.... What is called? Pariṇamanam. Transformations. Either as stool or as ash or as earth. Those who are burying, the bodies gradually becomes earth; those who are throwing, the vultures eat, the jackals, dogs eat and it turns into stool; and those who are burning, it turns into ashes. Three transformations. This beautiful body. Nalinīkaṇṭha: Some people would say, "If everything is a creation of God, then why do you have such a..., why do you present this body as such a horrible thing?" Prabhupāda: You wanted this body. Therefore you have got this body. You wanted. Just like a child asks the father, "Give me this dress." Father gives him, "All right, take this dress." You wanted a certain type of body. Just like the surfers. They want a body like fish. Therefore they are so much anxious to swim. So father will give him next body a fish. Rāmeśvara: He was saying that some people criticize us that we are saying this is God's creation, yet we are always speaking of it in a very bad way. Prabhupāda: Very bad way? Trivikrama: The bad way is also the mercy of the Lord to help us realize that... Prabhupāda: No, no. Bad way, good way, man proposes, God disposes. You want something, bad or good.... Actually, everything is bad. This body or the fish's body or the dog's body, that is all material body. So everything is bad. But I prefer to get the body of a human being or a dog or a fish or a bird. That is my choice. So God gives you that body. Everywhere God's mercy is there, because whatever you want, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. In the material world, you have come to enjoy. You cannot enjoy. You are thinking.... Just like child. He's playing with something for sometime, again taking another thing, again taking another thing, childish. So similarly we want to enjoy this material world. Sometimes I am thinking it will be convenient if I get a man's body, it will be convenient if I get a tiger's body, it will be convenient if I get a fish's body. So God is supplying you: "All right, you take this body." So what is God's fault? He is very kind. You wanted to do something. Do it. Not only that, if he forgets that "I wanted the fish body, now how I have got it?" No, he forgets that he wanted it. So God reminds him that "You wanted this body; *you have got this body." Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. So God is very kind in all circumstances. Now we proposing to enjoy this material world under different situations, and God is helping us. Bhrāmayan sarva*-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. You want to wander within this material world. That is your proposal. So, in order to enjoy this material world, you require different types of body. Just like they are trying to go to the moon planet. It requires a different body. So yānti deva-vratā devān: [Bg. 9.25] this life, you aspire of going to the moon planet; *next life, automatically you will go there. Why you are trying unnecessarily to go to the moon planet by sputnik? You'll go there. You just always think of the moon and you'll go to the moon. It is simple process. And by this way, you cannot go. Now, exactly in the same way that you get the body of a fish and you very easily, whole day and night, for so many years, you jump over in the sea. So moon planet is one of the heavenly planets. There is process how to go to moon planet. In the Bhāgavata it is stated. Those who are karma*-kāṇḍīya, very, discharging the Vedic ritualistic ceremony, karma-kāṇḍa, they can go to the moon planet or sun planet. There are millions and trillions of planets they can go. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.25]. The same thing. Suppose if you want to go to India, you prepare yourself, take the visa, the permit, the passport and necessary money and permission, so many things. You go there. Yes. Dr. Wolfe: I think so much of going to India, I would certainly be born in India. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, this is an example that anywhere you want to go.... Therefore one qualification of living entity is sarva*-ga. Sarva-ga. Ga means can go, this ga, ga and go. Sarva-ga. Sthānur acalo 'yam... Where is Bhagavad-gītā? *Hṛdayānanda: Nityaḥ sarva*-gataḥ sthāṇuḥ. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Hṛdayānanda: Nityaḥ sarva*-gataḥ sthāṇuḥ. *Prabhupāda: Nityaḥ sarva*-gataḥ sthānuḥ, then? Yes. So sarva-gataḥ, sarva-ga, sarva-ga is this word? Hṛdayānanda: Gataḥ. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-gataḥ is another, sarva-ga, the word is used. Sarva-ga means he can go anywhere he likes. He can go anywhere. Such freedom is there. That is confirmed in another verse. Yānti deva-vratā devān: you can go to the deva-loka. The moon planet is the beginning of the heavenly planets. You can go there. You simply prepare yourself. "And if one tries to go back to Me, back to home, back to, he can also go there." The intelligence is there that if, by preparing myself, I can go to God, why shall I endeavor to go to this moon, to the sun, to the hell, to the this or that? For everything, I'll have to prepare; *so why not prepare myself to go back to home, back to Godhead? That is intelligence. Wherever you want to go, you have to prepare yourself, you have to make some endeavor. So why not make little endeavor for going back to home, back to Godhead? Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. And if once you go to God, then you haven't got to come back again to accept this material body. So why not endeavor for this? This is intelligence. What is the benefit if I go to the moon planet? Ābrahma*-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16]. Even if you go to the highest planet, Brahmaloka, you'll have to come back again. So why you should waste your time in this temporary thing? Go back to home, back to Godhead, where you'll get, awaken your eternal life, blissful life of knowledge. You go there. That is intelligence. If I have to endeavor, make preparation for going to the moon planet, so what is that moon planet? You can get duration of life, ten thousands of years. Just like we have got life here for one hundred years maximum, the moon planet, you can live there for ten thousands of years. But after that ten thousand years, you have to die. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. There is no excuse. So intelligent man, why he should endeavor for things which are temporary, maybe ten years or hundred years or ten thousand years? That is intelligence, that why should I try for temporary things? If there is possibility of my permanent life, blissful life, why not try? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama. Is that not? Find out. Yad gatvā na nivartante. Indian guest: Prabhupāda? (very faint) ...petroleum demand, he takes out the blood of the earth and so the planet is going to sink (indistinct) said. Prabhupāda: I mentioned somewhere. (laughs) Yes. Indian guest: So can we do something about it? Prabhupāda: What you can do? If I take your blood, what you can do? You'll die, that's all. Hm. Hṛdayānanda: *"That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world." Purport? "The spiritual world, the abode of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, which is known as Kṛṣṇaloka, Goloka Vṛndāvana, is described here. In the spiritual sky there is no need of sunshine, moonshine, fire or electricity, because all the planets are self*-luminous. We have only one planet in this universe, the sun, which is self-luminous, but all the planets in the spiritual sky are self-luminous. The shining effulgence of all those planets, called Vaikuṇṭhas, constitutes the shining sky known as the brahmajyoti. Actually, the effulgence is emanating from the planet of Kṛṣṇa, Goloka Vṛndāvana. Part of that shining effulgence is covered by the mahat-tattva, the material world. Other than this, the major portion of that shining sky is full of spiritual planets, which are called Vaikuṇṭhas, the chief of which is Goloka Vṛndāvana. As long as a living entity is in this dark material world, he is in conditional life, but as soon as he reaches the spiritual sky, by cutting through the false, perverted tree of this material world, he becomes liberated. Then there is no chance of his coming back here. In his conditional life, the living entity considers himself to be the lord of this material world, but in his liberated state he enters into the spiritual kingdom and becomes the associate of the Supreme Lord. There he enjoys eternal bliss, eternal life, and full knowledge. One should be captivated by this information. He should desire to transfer himself to that eternal world and extricate himself from this false reflection of reality. For one who is too much attached to this material world, it is very difficult to cut that attachment, but if he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is a chance of gradually becoming detached. One has to associate himself with devotees, those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One should search out a society dedicated to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and learn how to discharge devotional service. In this way he can cut off his attachment to the material world. One cannot become detached from the attraction of the material world simply by dressing himself in saffron cloth. He must become attached to the devotional service of the Lord. Therefore one should take it very seriously that devotional service as described in the Twelfth Chapter is the only way to get out of this false representation of the real tree. In Chapter Fourteen the contamination of all kinds of processes by material nature is described. Only devotional service is described as purely transcendental. The words paramaṁ mama are very important here. Actually every nook and corner is the property of the Supreme Lord, but the spiritual world is paramam, full of six opulences. In the Upaniṣads it is also confirmed that in the spiritual world there is no need of sunshine or moonshine, for the whole spiritual sky is illuminated by the internal potency of the Supreme Lord. That supreme abode can be achieved only by surrender and by no other means." Prabhupāda: Next verse. Hṛdayānanda: *"The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind." Purport. "In this verse the identity of the living being is clearly given. The living entity is a fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord*-eternally. It is not that he assumes individuality in his conditional life and in his liberated state becomes one with the Supreme Lord. He is eternally fragmented. It is clearly said, sanātana. According to the Vedic version, the Supreme Lord manifests and expands Himself in innumerable expansions, of which the primary expansions are called Viṣṇu-tattva, and the secondary expansions are called the living entities. In other words, the Viṣṇu-tattva is the personal expansion, and the living entities are separated expansions. By His personal expansion, He is manifested in various forms like Lord Rāma, Nṛsiṁhadeva, Viṣṇumūrti and all the predominating Deities in the Vaikuṇṭha planets. The separated expansions, the living entities, are eternally servitors. The personal expansions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual identities of the Godhead, are always present. Similarly, the separated expansions of living entities have their identities. As fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, the living entities have also fragmental qualities, of which independence is one. Every living entity has an individual soul, his personal individuality and a minute form of independence. By misuse of that independence, one becomes a conditioned soul, and by proper use of independence he is always liberated. In either case, he is qualitatively eternal, as the Supreme Lord is. In his liberated state he is freed from this material condition, and he is under the engagement of transcendental service unto the Lord; *in his conditioned life he is dominated by the material modes of nature, and he forgets the transcendental loving service of the Lord. As a result, he has to struggle very hard to maintain his existence in the material world. The living entities, not only the human beings and the cats and dogs, but even the greater controllers of the material world-Brahmā, Lord Śiva, and even Viṣṇu*-are all parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord. They are all eternal, not temporary manifestations. The word karṣati (struggling or gappling hard) is very significant. The conditioned soul is bound up, as though shackled by iron chains. He is bound up by the false ego, and the mind is the chief agent which is driving him in this material existence. When the mind is in the mode of goodness, his activities are good." *Prabhupāda: Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7]. The struggle for existence*-this word is used also among the philosophers. This is struggle. He is creating something by the mind, manaḥ, and the senses are engaged according to the dictation of the mind. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi. In this way, prakṛti-sthāni, within this material world, he's living a life of struggle for existence. Prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. Karṣati means with hardship he's pulling on. Just like an animal yoked with cart, bull, with hardship he's pulling on, but he cannot get out of it. And if he slacks, immediately there is whip, he has to go. Therefore this word is used, karṣati. He doesn't like this, but he has to do it. Struggle for existence, survival of the fittest. (someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. The man may come. Rāmeśvara: He's a good friend of ours, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He helps us in many legal affairs. Prabhupāda: So if he wants to come forward. [break] Go on reading. Hṛdayānanda: "When the mind is in the mode of goodness, his activities are good; when the mind is in the mode of passion, his activities are troublesome; and when the mind is in the mode of ignorance, he travels in the lower species of life. It is clear, however, in this verse, that the conditioned soul is covered by..." Prabhupāda: Ignorance means completely lost of all independence. That is ignorance. Complete loss of, even little intelligence, all lost. In the modes of passion, there is little independence, and in the modes of goodness, he has got full independence whether to remain in the struggle for existence or go back to home, back to Godhead. Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇaḥ. That is real knowledge platform. *Hṛdayānanda: (reading:) "This material covering perishes, but his spiritual body manifests in its individual capacity. The following information is there in the Mādhyandināyana-śruti: sa vā eṣa brahma-niṣṭha idaṁ śarīraṁ martyam atisṛjya brahmābhisampadya brahmaṇā paśyati brahmaṇā śṛṇoti brahmaṇaivedaṁ sarvam anubhavati. It is stated here that when a living entity gives up this material embodiment and enters into the spiritual world, he revives his spiritual body, and in his spiritual body he can see the Supreme Personality of Godhead face to face. He can hear and speak to Him face to face, and he can understand the Supreme Personality as He is. In smṛti also it is understood that in the spiritual planets everyone lives in bodies featured like the Supreme Personality of Godhead's body. As far as bodily construction is concerned, there is no difference between the part-and-parcel living entities and the expansions of Viṣṇumūrti. In other words, at liberation the living entity gets a spiritual body by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The word mamaivāṁśaḥ, 'fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord,' is also very significant. The fragmental portion of the Supreme Lord is not like some material broken part. We have already understood in the Second Chapter that the spirit cannot be cut into pieces. This fragment is not materially conceived. It is not like matter which can be cut into pieces and joined together again. That conception is not applicable here because the Sanskrit word sanātana, 'eternal,' is used. The fragmental portion is eternal. It is also stated in the beginning of the Second Chapter that dehino 'smin yathā*-in each and every individual body, the fragmental portion of the Supreme Lord is present. That fragmental portion, when liberated from the bodily entanglement, revives its original spiritual body in the spiritual sky in a spiritual planet and enjoys association with the Supreme Lord. It is, however, understood here that the living entity, being the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, is qualitatively one, just as the parts and parcels of gold are also gold." *Prabhupāda: Sometimes the atheists, they say there is no soul-intuition. So we do not accept this proposal. The soul, when he is in particular situation, he remembers immediately what he has to do. Just like the small puppies, they have not even opened the eyes, but still, immediately after birth they're searching after food and goes immediately to the nipples of the mother. So how he goes there? They say it is intuition, but it is not intuition. The soul, being put into that body, immediately remembers all the activities of the body. Just like in Los Angeles. When I am in tour in other places I forget about Los Angeles, but as soon as I come here, I know where is my bedroom, where is my sitting room, where is my garden, immediately. I haven't got to be taught that "Here is your sitting room, here is your sleeping room." Immediately, I remember. Similarly, this living entity is transmigrating from time immemorial in different types of body. So as soon as he comes to a particular type of body he remembers the activities immediately. They are interpreting as intuition*-that is not intuition. It is old remembrance. This is the explanation. Rāmeśvara: But then there is an argument, if we were originally in the spiritual world, why don't we remember that and try to go back to the spiritual world? Prabhupāda: That I have already said, that when I am in tour in Europe and India, I completely forget about Los Angeles. I act according to the circumstances there. And again when I come to Los Angeles, I immediately remember. This is natural. Out of sight, out of mind. Bharadvāja: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we don't have to learn the activities of our spiritual body? *Prabhupāda: Yes, when you are revived. Therefore the Vedic injunction is that now you have got this human form of body, you get up to your original position. Uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpta varan nibodhata. This is the Vedic injunction. Jīva jāgo jīva jāgo, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. Jīva jāgo jīva jāgo gauracanda bole kota nidrā jāo māyā*-piśācīra kole. How long you'll sleep? Here is the opportunity. Try to understand yourself. That is self-realization. And go back to home, back to Godhead. Why you are struggling here? Kṛṣṇa is coming. He is also saying the same, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Why you are rotting in this material world? So for spiritual awakening there are so many attempts by God Himself, by His devotees, by books, so many ways. But we are not inclined. That is our fault. Gopavṛndapāla: To take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the real survival of the fittest. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa saying, coming, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. Real dharma is to remain subordinate to Kṛṣṇa as servant. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. So we have forgotten it. This is dharmasya glāniḥ. Dharma means characteristics. It is not a faith; it is a fact. So our characteristic is that we are eternal servant of God. When we forget this characteristic, that this is my original characteristic, that is adharma. That is dharmasya glāniḥ. So yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. When there is discrepancy in the matter of discharging dharma, my occupational duty, then there is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So one has to take it, then he's fortunate. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kono bhāgyavān jīva. He's rotating within this universe, up and down. So if he's fortunate enough, he takes to this movement. It is an opportunity. The seed of devotional service he gets by the mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa. So if you lose this opportunity, then you have to suffer. (to a guest) How do you think? Guest: How do I think? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Guest: Is it possible for one to know how many lifetimes it takes to reach spiritual perfection? *Prabhupāda: Immediately, he can take. Provided that he accepts. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Find out this verse. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ. Hṛdayānanda: "Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear." Prabhupāda: So, when you are free from sinful life and the reaction of sinful life, then you are immediately on the spiritual platform. So here *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*, He assures that "You simply surrender unto Me, and I immediately excuse you for all your sinful life." So it can be done in one second. It doesn't take much time. One second. He says "immediately." But we don't want that, that is the difficulty. Read the purport. *Hṛdayānanda: "The Lord has described various kinds of knowledge, processes of religion, knowledge of the Supreme Brahman, knowledge of the Supersoul, knowledge of the different types of orders and statuses of social life, knowledge of the renounced order of life, knowledge of nonattachment, sense and mind control, meditation, etc. He has described in so many ways different types of religion. Now in summarizing Bhagavad*-gītā, the Lord says that Arjuna should give up all the processes that have been explained to him; *he should simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That surrender will save him from all kinds of sinful reactions, for the Lord personally promises to protect him. In the Eighth Chapter it was said that only one who has become free from all sinful reactions can take to the worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Thus one may think that unless he is free from all sinful reactions he cannot take to the surrendering process. To such doubts it is here said that even if one is not free from all sinful reactions, simply by the process of surrendering to Śrī Kṛṣṇa he is automatically freed. There is no need of strenuous effort to free oneself from sinful reactions. One should unhesitatingly accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme savior of all living entities. With faith and love, one should surrender unto Him. According to the devotional process, one should simply accept such religious principles that will lead ultimately to the devotional service of the Lord. One may perform a particular occupational duty according to his position in the social order, but if by executing his duty one does not come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all his activities are in vain. Anything that does not lead to the perfectional stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be avoided. One should be confident that in all circumstances Kṛṣṇa will protect him from all difficulties. There is no need of thinking how one should keep the body and soul together. Kṛṣṇa will see to that. One should always think himself helpless and should consider Kṛṣṇa the only basis for his progress in life. As soon as one seriously engages himself in devotional service to the Lord in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, at once he becomes freed from all contamination of material nature. There are different processes of religion and purificatory processes by cultivation of knowledge, meditation in the mystic yoga system, etc., but one who surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa does not have to execute so many methods. That simple surrender unto Kṛṣṇa will save him from unnecessarily wasting time. One can thus make all progress at once and be freed from all sinful reaction. One should be attracted by the beautiful vision of Kṛṣṇa. His name is Kṛṣṇa because He is all*-attractive. One who becomes attracted by the beautiful, all-powerful, omnipotent vision of Kṛṣṇa is fortunate. There are different kinds of transcendentalists-some of them are attached to the impersonal Brahman vision, some of them are attracted by the Supersoul feature, etc., but one who is attracted to the personal feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and, above all, one who is attracted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead as Kṛṣṇa Himself, is the most perfect transcendentalist. In other words, devotional service to Kṛṣṇa in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the most confidential part of knowledge, and this is the essence of the whole Bhagavad-gītā. Karma-yogīs, empiric philosophers, mystics, and devotees are all called transcendentalists, but one who is a pure devotee is the best of all. The particular words used here, mā śucaḥ, 'Don't fear, don't hesitate, don't worry,' are very significant. One may be perplexed as to how one can give up all kinds of religious forms and simply surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, but such worry is useless." Prabhupāda: So it takes one second. Guest: Yes. Trivikrama: Because Kṛṣṇa's representative is nondifferent, he's a transparent medium; therefore if you surrender to him, then that's the same as surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. He so kindly sends His pure devotee for an opportunity. You can't say "Well where is God? I don't know how to surrender." He's sending His representative. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's representative means the representative says the same thing as Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says "Surrender unto Me," and the representative says "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." And because he delivers the real knowledge, he's as good as Kṛṣṇa. Therefore sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. The spiritual master may appear to be just like a common man, but he is to be respected as God, because he delivers the real message of God. That is the qualification of spiritual master. He does not manufacture anything. That is very easy. If I carry your message and educate people in that way, then there is no difficulty for me. Everything is there. Why shall I go to manufacture something imperfect? The perfect thing is already there. Simply I have to carry. A post peon*-the money order is there, he has to simply carry and deliver to the person. And if he gets at time of need, he thanks the peon, "Oh, you have saved my life." It is like that. The message is already there. You have to simply deliver to the suffering humanity. Then he'll be relieved. And because he delivers the real reality, therefore he's worshiped as God. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. Ācāryaṁ māṁ hi vijānīyāt. Kṛṣṇa also says ācārya is..., "I am ācārya." Because when there is, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. Hṛdayānanda: Read it? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hṛdayānanda: "There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear." *Prabhupāda: Who? Who delivers this message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if from the government some very confidential secretary comes, you have to receive him just like the president, to please him. So this is the qualification of spiritual master, that he delivers things at it is. He does not make any adulteration. Then he is real representative, and he is to be accepted as God Himself. That is the process. Because here it is said na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu [Bg. 18.69]. You have got a son, and if I love the son.... There is an English word: "If you love me, love my dog." So the spiritual master is dog*-God. He's dog of God, therefore he's dog-God. He's to be worshiped. He's the pet dog of God. Therefore if you love the dog, you love God. Spiritual master will not claim that "I am God," but it is our duty, because the dog is pet.... Here it is said, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu [Bg. 18.69]. You have to love that dog. Then you'll get perfection. This is the secret. So...? Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 8, 1976, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...from the ground. So the tree is the son, and the earth is the mother. So what is the wrong argument there? We have got experience that a child is coming from the womb of the mother. So why we should suggest a nonsense creation, that there was a chunk and there was a creation? What is this? Talk on this point. Where is your experience that all of a sudden a chunk dropped and there was creation? We have got experience that creation is there. Mother is there, and a child is coming. This is the creation. So wherefrom this idea comes, that without father and mother, creation is possible? What is his argument? He is great scientist. Let him... Hṛdayānanda: Chief rascal. Rādhāvallabha: They say that nature takes care of it all. Prabhupāda: What? Then why nature did not take care of you? (laughter) Therefore you are rascal. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The trees, they produce seeds, and the seed drops on the ground, and than another tree comes. Prabhupāda: That's all right, Rāmeśvara: There's no father. Simply... *Prabhupāda: There is no father. That I understand. But the tree is coming from the earth. So that is in anywhere. Just like the father gives the seed in the womb of the mother, and she produces the body and it comes out. The seed is coming from the father. And that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā: bījo'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10]. The seed comes from the father, that you cannot deny. Mother, without seed, cannot be pregnant and cannot give child. That is our experience. Nature is mother, and the seed is given by the father. Rāmeśvara: In science, the biologists teach that there are small animals, very small, called amoebas. And when they reproduce, they simply divide themselves into two; there is no sex, there is no father. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So two or three or four or five coming from the life. The amoeba is a life. Not that from any stone it is coming. The life is coming from life. But in a different way. *Rādhāvallabha: Previously the scientists used to say that they would put dirty laundry and rotten garbage in a box. Then a few weeks later they would find rats. So they said that rats are made from garbage. So then everyone*-this was presented as a very laughable theory. And then the next theory that was presented as the actual one was that life came from chemicals. Prabhupāda: First of all, life comes from rats (laughs). Every year, they are changing their theories. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually, their philosophy came from rats. *Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that philosophy? Rat philosophy? This is called vṛścika*-taṇḍula-nyāya in Sanskrit. The scorpion is coming from the stock of rice. Actually, the scorpions they lay egg within the stock of rice, and by fermentation the eggs become scorpion and come out. Not that the rice is producing scorpion. Rādhāvallabha: The scientists know about that, and they say yes, that is very laughable, primitive. But their new theory is simply that life comes from chemicals. So it is actually the same thing. Hṛdayānanda: Yes, because life is also chemicals. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But the fact is that they cannot even manufacture a tiny seed which will fructify. Prabhupāda: Yes, let them manufacture a seed. From that seed a big tree will come. Rāmeśvara: They cannot do that. Prabhupāda: Then? Candanācārya: Some devotees are saying that cockroaches are coming from the vapors of impure things. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they come. That is called sveda*-ja. Just like from perspiration, bugs are coming out. Sveda-ja. Rādhāvallabha: So isn't that life coming from matter? Prabhupāda: Not matter. From matter is not coming, but they are taking birth. Hari-śauri: That's the atmosphere that they get born into. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhāvallabha: So are they coming from eggs, or how are they coming? Just the soul enters the dirt? Prabhupāda: No. Just like it is a suitable circumstance from which the living entity makes his body. Rādhāvallabha: But how has the cockroach been formed? Prabhupāda: Just like embryo. The living entity comes of the two secretions of father and mother emulsified. It creates a situation so that he can stay there and develop a body. Rādhāvallabha: But it requires some emanation from a cockroach body in order to create another cockroach body. So how can a cockroach body be created from vapors without contact of another cockroach? *Prabhupāda: No, no. Vapor does not create. The individual soul comes there according to his karma and, in that condition, he develops his body. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. Rāmeśvara: So the seed of.... The soul is within the vapor? Prabhupāda: The seed, when it is put into the earth, a situation is created so the soul can develop into a tree. Rādhāvallabha: But how would the soul develop a particular body...? Prabhupāda: That is Yamarāja is.... We are reading the Yamarāja incident(?). That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like how can a living entity take birth in the fire? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is that how can an entity take birth in perspiration? His question. So how can a living entity take birth in the fire? Mostly our experience is that entities are taking birth from the earth, but according to the understanding... *Prabhupāda: So how the fishes are born in the water? How the other living entities, they remain in the air? Or without air? There are five elements: earth, water, fire, air.... Anywhere, the living entities can take birth. Sarva*-ga. Sthāṇur sarva-gataḥ acalo 'yam. You read all these words of Bhagavad-gītā. Sarva-ga. From anywhere, he can take birth. Devotee: Do the living entities who are born from perspiration require a mother and father? Prabhupāda: No. No. There is mother. That perspiration is mother. Rādhāvallabha: So the reason why they get a particular body... Prabhupāda: And the father is God. Rādhāvallabha: So they are just getting a particular body just due to Yamarāja. Prabhupāda: Yes, according to the decision of the Yamarāja, he has to get a particular type of body. Rādhāvallabha: The scientists don't know this. Hari-śauri: It's very confusing, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Confusing must be. How you can understand the subtle laws of God? You have dull brain, with cow dung. (laughs) You cannot understand. Arcita: So according to the Christians, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Jesus Christ was born without contact of any material father. He was divinely placed in the womb of Mary. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Divinely placed by the Father is God. That's all. You cannot deny the fact. And he claims: "I am son of God." Then, what is the argument? Arcita: Is there any such experience in the Vedic literatures, Śrīla Prabhupāda? An example we can cite also? Prabhupāda: No, no, Vedic literature, apart from. Your argument, that without father, how it is without father? Without father, there is no question of birth; without mother, there is no question of birth. Our point is that without father there is no creation. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, when a living entity is in an animal body, and when he quits his body, there's no karma, he's just automatically promoted to a higher body? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: So then... *Prabhupāda: Animal life means there is no sin. It is promotion. Because they are animal, their consciousness is not developed. Just like a child*-a child, if he steals, that is not sin. He will not be criminally charged. He is child. A dog goes left to the right or right to the.... He is not criminal. But if you do, you are criminal. Rāmeśvara: So Yamarāja does not direct the movements of the living entities as they are going automatically from animal body to higher body. Prabhupāda: An animal is not jurisdiction of Yamarāja. The man is in the jurisdiction of.... Just like law is meant for man, not for the cats and dogs. Rāmeśvara: So what determines the different varieties of dogs and cats if they are just automatically being...? Prabhupāda: Not automatically. You are man. If you develop a dog's mentality, the Yamarāja puts you in the dog's body. And then you again develop, come to the man's body. That means your term of imprisonment finished. You become again man. Now again decide. And again if you become a dog's mentality, again go. This is going on. Rādhāvallabha: The different varieties of suffering within the animal species are due to the different varieties of sinful activities in the human life? Prabhupāda: Yes. And they, then they automatically come. Just as your term of imprisonment, by day's gone, it is finished, again you are free. Similarly, by natural development from dogs or cockroaches or from this or that, there is a process of development. You come to the human form of body. Then again you decide whether you go down or you go back to home, back to Godhead. That is your choice. If you want to go down, go again. Otherwise, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9], come here. So make your choice. Rāmeśvara: So the living entity who is in the lower body like insects or plants... Prabhupāda: Yes. They will come automatically to the human form of body, by promotion. Rāmeśvara: And he passes through all the species? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: So he has no desire to fly, but still he passes through bird species. Prabhupāda: No, just like child is taken care of. Child does not know what he is doing, but the father, mother, taking care of. Hari-śauri: He's taken through stages. *Prabhupāda: So mother nature takes care to bring him again to the grown*-up youthful life. Now you make your decision. So, if you don't make your decision, the knowledge is there, the books are there, if you don't make your decision, still you want to remain as cats and dogs, again begin. Devotee: Do most humans go down to the animal species again after human life? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Do most human beings fall down into the animal species? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. He can become a stool worm. (laughter) Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the value for the living entity to automatically pass through all these different species? Does he get any knowledge? Prabhupāda: To, to finish his life of imprisonment. Rāmeśvara: How is it benefiting him? *Prabhupāda: He's corrected. Benefit is he's corrected. After undergoing so many species of life, he is corrected and again he is brought to the human form of life, civilized form of life. Let him make his choice. If he again makes his choice, go down to become a stool worm. Go! That is nature's.... Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi*-guṇa, according to qualities he has taken. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā: [Bg. 3.27] the rascal, being proud, "Now I have got this life, civilized life. I can do whatever I like to. Ah, there is no God." Then God comes as death and puts you again to become a worm in stool. That's all. *Duryodhana*-guru: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Seventh Canto you mention that there are certain species of human life for whom certain sinful activities they don't receive any reaction. Prabhupāda: Yes, uncivilized, they are like animals. *Duryodhana*-guru: So they can perform, like, let's say for example, intoxication or meat-eating, and they won't receive any sinful reaction? Prabhupāda: Yes, oh, yes. No. Because they are uncivilized. And you claim to be civilized and you are killing animals? Must be responsible. Arcita: Śrīla Prabhupāda, those who come up from the animal species, do they automatically get a chance to contact Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or do they, might be born in low family, or... *Prabhupāda: No, they get.... Just like we are opening centers, we are giving chance to everyone. If he takes opportunity, he can become realized.(indistinct) Kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā [SB 2.4.18]. That is the duty of devotees, to raise everyone to the sense of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if one is unfortunate, he does not take the advantage. Hari-śauri: It's a question of fortune then, in the human form, to get that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Obstinacy. If you take the worm from the stool, aside, it will go again to the stool. You see? Again it will. Bharadvāja: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's still, within all the different species, there are still different varieties. What accounts for all these varieties? Prabhupāda: Varieties of the body, according to the mentality. Bharadvāja: According to karma? Prabhupāda: Yes, according to karma at the time of death, mind is saturated in that way, and he gets a body, that's all. Mahendra: And then, after, say if a human being falls down into the animal species, after that, does he go through each and every one of these species successively? Even there are different types of dogs, he becomes each different type of dog? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, oh, yes. That is Darwin's gradual evolution. Mahendra: Except this is evolution of consciousness, growing bigger. Prabhupāda: Darwin has captured that portion, how the body is changing one after another. *Duryodhana*-guru: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Bhagavad-gītā it is said śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate [Bg. 6.41]. So, for somebody who is now a disciple of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, are we to understand if he is not born in a family of devotees and if he is not born in an aristocratic family, that he was not a yogi in his past life? *Prabhupāda: Eh? Past life, they had some good deeds. Therefore they have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is called ajñāta*-sukṛti. Besides that, whatever he may be in the past life, the movement is there, it is open for everyone. Everyone can come and take advantage, despite whatever he did in his past life. It doesn't matter. If he comes and if he is fortunate, if he chants, then he becomes advanced. *Duryodhana*-guru: This is Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's special mercy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were explaining to the reporter yesterday that the difference between the animal and the human is that the animal cannot think of God; he has no religion. So, when the living entity is passing through these different species, he doesn't have sufficient knowledge of... Prabhupāda: No knowledge. That is animal. That is animal. Rāmeśvara: Then how is he benefited? You explained it, as he is being promoted he is being corrected. Prabhupāda: Corrected, yes. Rāmeśvara: But if he cannot understand God... Prabhupāda: No, there is no need of.... Different stages of body.... Just like you are going up one step, another step, another step. There is no need of going, "What is this?" But you are going up, step by step. *Mahendra: In the Bhagavad*-gītā, you explain that one takes a specific birth due to a specific degree of lust. Prabhupāda: Yes, mental situation. Candanācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you once said that if someone is not attracted to chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, that he is being punished by Yamarāja. Prabhupāda: Yes. Āpana karama bhuñjāye śamana kahaye locana dāsa. Dānavīr: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes when we're preaching to people that we don't eat meat, fish or egg, they say,"Why not eggs? They're not actually living. It's just a, it hasn't been fertilized." Prabhupāda: Then that's a rascal. You explain it, explain to him that why they cannot make an egg by chemical composition and give for fermentation and a chicken may come. Why do they not do that? Why they are taking eggs from hens? Why do they not chemically manufacture egg? Bharadvāja: Must have life. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. If that is a fact, that there is no life, then you prepare egg. What is there? Some white chemicals. A little yellow. You can do it. Rāmeśvara: Just like abortion. They have a process to take the egg from the hen, and they make sure that the egg will not grow into a chicken. It is like an abortion. Prabhupāda: That's all right. The life is there. You make some arrangement that it will not take part. That is another thing. If it is a fact that the egg is not life, then why you rascal do not manufacture a chemical egg and get a chicken? Why you rascal talking nonsense? That is our challenge. We say "rascals" not without consideration, because actually they talk like nonsense. Rascals. They cannot do, and still they'll insist they will do. That is rascal. Is it all right? (laughs) South, South America, er, South Africa, there are so many factories of begetting chicken. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Rainbow Chicken Factory. Prabhupāda: Yes, the chicken factory, but they're taking the eggs from chicken. Why not manufacture small egg and give to the fermentation and come? There is no question of killing animals. Why they are taking? Rādhāvallabha: They say God has provided it for us for food. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then you become a dog. God has provided you a dog's body. Take advantage of it and bark. (laughter) Protest. "Why You have made me? Why You are doing?" (laughter) Rādhāvallabha: When I was in the hospital, right next to me there was one yogi, and a girl yogi came to instruct him every day. Prabhupāda: Girl? Rādhāvallabha: Yes. (laughter) One of her instructions was, the first instruction was that you can do anything you want. You just cannot be attached to it. Prabhupāda: Then suffer. Why you have come to hospital? If you have become attached to the suffering... Passerby: Good morning! Prabhupāda: Good morning. Thank you, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Passerby: Oh, isn't that nice. Rādhāvallabha: So the whole time he was in the hospital, all he talked about was how much he was suffering. Prabhupāda: Don't be attached. (laughs) Rascal. Don't be attached. (devotees laugh) Rāmeśvara: But the.... Certain psychologists are very, very interested in trying to put a person under hypnosis, and then he can talk about experiences he has had in his past lives. They are very eager to have a person under a certain condition where he will remember experiences from his past life. Prabhupāda: So why the psychiatrist does not remember? Why he does not remember? Rāmeśvara: They say that only certain people have the ability to remember. Prabhupāda: Certain rascals. Candanācārya: They hypnotize them, and they say, "Remember your last life." Prabhupāda: And whatever nonsense he says, it is all right. Candanācārya: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Is that possible, that the living entity can remember? Prabhupāda: He can remember, but not these rascals' mechanical process. Hari-śauri: They say they take him into the subconscious and they extract thoughts from the subconscious. Prabhupāda: But they say certain people can be done. That means it is nonsense. If it is a fact, if it is a process, then everyone can remember. Why certain? That is their jugglery of words. Cheating. Mahendra: They also say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that since little children, little infants... Prabhupāda: Stop them, all rascals. Rāmeśvara: [break].... ability that they have studied, they call it ESP, or extrasensory perception, and by this the ability to see through the eyes is greatly increased, and you can, like sometimes they have a playing card and they turn it face down, and the man can guess what is the actual card, and they have all these games, and, in this way they say certain people have special powers. Prabhupāda: As soon as they say "certain people," that is not fact. Candanācārya: Actually, they say that potentially everyone has these powers, but some are more developed than others. Also the powers to understand each other's thoughts. (someone passes with a portable radio hearing a news broadcast) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: The only hope is to read your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotees: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Not my books, Kṛṣṇa's books. Hṛdayānanda: It's time to go back. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Duryodhana*-guru: In Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, nityaḥ sarva-gataḥ sthāṇuḥ. So sarva-gataḥ, meaning the living entity is all-pervading, this is nominative singular. *Prabhupāda: Not all*-pervading, everyone can go, gataḥ, one who can go anywhere. *Duryodhana*-guru: Oh, so that's the understanding, because the impersonalists' understanding, they could say that the living entity is actually God by saying that he is all-pervading, sarva-gataḥ. They could interpret it in this way. *Prabhupāda: But you ask him, you are sarva*-gataḥ? If you are intelligent you should have asked him, are you sarva-gataḥ? What he'll answer? *Duryodhana*-guru: Well, he'll have to say, "No, not in this stage of life. Once I become liberated, then I will be." (devotees laugh) *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Just see the jugglery of words. Now why you forgot yourself? You are sarva*-gataḥ; now why you are conditioned? Why? *Duryodhana*-guru: Well, couldn't answer, I guess. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. (devotees laugh) *Rādhāvallabha: Sarva*-gataḥ tomorrow. Nalinīkaṇṭha: When I'm liberated, I'll be able to answer you. Prabhupāda: If you are not liberated, why you are talking nonsense? Then you are a nonsense. You are not liberated, you cannot talk correct things. Don't talk. If you are not liberated, whatever you are talking, you are nonsense. So why you are misleading people? First of all, be liberated, then talk. Bharadvāja: What is the position of Dhruva Mahārāja, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? He was a devotee, that's all. He never said that "I am God." Rāmeśvara: Sometimes devotees argue that "Dhruva Mahārāja, he had a material desire, and still he became perfect. So I can keep my material desires." Prabhupāda: No, when he gave up material desires, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varān na yāce, "I don't want anything," then he became liberated. So long he had material desires, he was not liberated. When he refused to possess anything material, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varān na yāce, then he became liberated. Hari-śauri: But say, like Dakṣa, he saw Lord Viṣṇu and he had a desire for sex. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: Dakṣa. So he was still having sex desire, but he saw Lord Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: What is that? Hari-śauri: So then someone could argue, use that as an argument for returning. Prabhupāda: Seeing Viṣṇu is not liberation. Just like when Kṛṣṇa was present, so many people saw Him. Does it mean that everyone became liberated? Hari-śauri: It's a question of understanding His position. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Just like now many people are seeing you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but only a few are getting the benefit. Everyone is getting benefited in some way, but only a few are understanding. Prabhupāda: Apart from me, even one sees Kṛṣṇa.... There were so many. But it is said that in the battlefield, everyone who died seeing Kṛṣṇa, he got liberation. Candanācārya: You once said if someone sees saṅkīrtana and wonders "Who are those people?" then they are ten times more advanced than the greatest scientist. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is our test? Just explain. In the morning... *Hari-śauri: Oh. Prabhupāda was explaining to the reporters yesterday, one man was asking what Prabhupāda's opinion was about these other yogis. So he said, he quoted a verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā that if someone does not know Kṛṣṇa, then he's either a fool, or he's a rascal or he's the lowest of mankind, or his knowledge is... Prabhupāda: Most sinful. Hari-śauri: Most sinful, or his knowledge is stolen by illusion. [break] Bharadvāja: I understand, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the pure devotee can be as pervasive as Supersoul? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bharadvāja: By the mercy of Supersoul, he can be present in many places at once? Prabhupāda: Yes. By the grace of Kṛṣṇa, a devotee can become anything. *Duryodhana*-guru: So in other words that means the pure devotees can be omniscient? Prabhupāda: Everything. God is omniscient, so a pure devotee can become omniscient by the grace of God. Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda explains that Varuṇa is omniscient. *Duryodhana*-guru: Varuṇa? Rādhāvallabha: It's in Fourth Canto. Madhusūdana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how come that in the śāstra sometimes there are verses that are slightly doubtful about... Prabhupāda: Whenever there is doubtful, go to your... Madhusūdana: Just like it will have something that has perhaps two meanings, you can't... *Prabhupāda: Huh? There cannot be two meanings. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. In order to understand, go to your guru. Madhusūdana: In other words, sometimes it says Kṛṣṇa comes Himself, and actually the meaning is that He comes as His incarnation like Lord Buddha, but the verse seems to say that it's the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, and without your purport it's not possible..., it's almost left so that you can be fooled, as if it's a covering, a special covering so that nondevotees cannot understand it. Prabhupāda: The Supreme Personality cannot come? It is said there? Madhusūdana: No, it says He comes in the form of Lord Buddha, but I remember it was a great misunderstanding that Buddha was... Prabhupāda: He can come in any form He likes, not particularly as Lord Buddha. He's coming as fish, He's coming as tortoise, He's coming as boar, so why as Lord Buddha? *Madhusūdana: But you explain that Lord Buddha is not viṣṇu*-tattva, but that He is śakty-āveśa-avatāra. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhusūdana: But the verse says the Supreme Lord will come Himself, so one tends to think, well, Lord Buddha is the Supreme Lord Himself, but actually without your purport we wouldn't understand that He's śakty-āveśa. Prabhupāda: So the śakti is Kṛṣṇa. Śakti-śaktimator abhedaḥ. The śakti, energy, and the energetic, they're identical. *Duryodhana*-guru: But sometimes also the Supreme Lord comes Himself as śakty-āveśa-avatāra. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Duryodhana*-guru: Sākṣāt variety. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Arcita: Śrīla Prabhupāda, just like in this material body there are so many millions of living entities, but there's one living entity, myself, who's thinking that "I am this body." Is it the same way in the spiritual body*-there are many living entities in one body but there's one living entity who's thinking that "I am this body"? Prabhupāda: Explain. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's many living entities within the body. Just like there's tiny germs, worms, all kinds of living beings. Because of our attachment, our particular modes of material nature, kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22], we are identifying with this material body. Arcita: Is it the same in the spiritual body? Is it the same in the spiritual body? Is the spiritual body actually composed of many living entities, but there's one living entity... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The spiritual body is identical with the soul. Here in the material world there is duality, inferior and superior. In the spiritual world everything is of a superior nature. There is no duality. There's no material. Prabhupāda: Petrol smelling everywhere. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's from these automobiles, the exhaust. They say that in some cities like New York, just living in the city itself, it is like smoking two packs of cigarettes every day because of so much pollution in the air, so contaminated. [break]...in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that the cure for madness is open space and fresh air. That's Ayurvedic method. So in the cities there's all kinds of confined spaces, the air is not all clean. There's so much madness. [break] Prabhupāda: (in car) Scientists are changing their theories, how we can accept? Reasonably? You are changing your theories, how we can accept you are scientist? You are not sure of your position. Philosophers also, they say "I believe." What is the meaning of this philosophy? Hari-śauri: They simply give their own opinion about something and present that as being fact, and everyone else has their own. Prabhupāda: I have got my own opinion. Or anyone can have his own opinion. Why your opinion should be accepted? I have got.... [break] ...is that one does not understand that he is imperfect. Or he knows that he is imperfect, still, he wants to push forward his opinion. That is the difficulty. He knows he's imperfect. But he does not think that "I am imperfect. What is the value of my opinion?" Rāmeśvara: If I have a bigger brain than someone else, and if I give my... Prabhupāda: Comparatively, you are less crazy. That is another thing. Hari-śauri: "My idea may not be perfect, but it's better than yours," that's their idea. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is not your secure position. One child is older than the, another child. That does not mean he is a grown*-up. Rāmeśvara: [break] ...means to know who your father is. Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was once told by some devotees that you had said in some previous age of Kali, the dinosaurs, gigantic animals, were on the earth. Prabhupāda: I said? Rāmeśvara: They say that you said. (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughs) I never said. I never bother with these nonsense things. Rāmeśvara: They have got so many bones in the museums showing these gigantic animals. Prabhupāda: Not gigantic. There are bones. But that animal is still there, whalefish. Rāmeśvara: Whalefish. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Very big body. Rāmeśvara: Some have become extinct. Prabhupāda: Why they should be extinct? Hṛdayānanda: No longer on the earth. Rāmeśvara: No longer on this planet. Prabhupāda: (too much noise) Not necessarily. They are within the ocean. Hari-śauri: No, other animals. Prabhupāda: What other animals? Rāmeśvara: Those gigantic, they called them... Hṛdayānanda: Brontasaurus. *Rāmeśvara: Tyrannasaurus. Gigantic animals, they say are meat*-eaters. Hṛdayānanda: Dinosaurus. Hari-śauri: Tetrasaurus. Prabhupāda: Another imagination. These are actual facts.(?) Hari-śauri: They just made up different compositions of bones and then drew some outlines on them. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are imagination. Hari-śauri: But you said in Hawaii though that there are some animals that are as big as skyscrapers? Prabhupāda: Yes, these are birds. It is far from this earth though. They travel from one planet to another. Rāmeśvara: So these bones that they have found of these gigantic animals, they were all living underneath the water. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Not on the land. *Prabhupāda: Maybe. But the list is there: jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi. There are 900,000 different forms, and how many we have seen? There is information in the śāstra. Paśavas triṁśal-lakṣāṇi. Three million different types of animals. Hari-śauri: We've seen a few hundred at most. Prabhupāda: That's all. (laughs) That is also doubtful. Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa incarnates into every species of life. He can appear in any form. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, why the form came? Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. If we have to accept this sūtra, that everything emanates from Him, so unless Kṛṣṇa has got such similar form...? Hari-śauri: That's one argument that always defeats the impersonalists. They can't explain how forms have come from something without form. Prabhupāda: Impersonalists are neophytes. My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "With poor fund of knowledge." Their knowledge is imperfect. Rāmeśvara: Yesterday you were telling a reporter that it is not possible for modern man to travel to the moon, but in your Second Canto you describe that in a previous age of Kali the men had created mechanical means for going to other planets, and they were creating havoc all over the universe, and Lord Buddha appeared to stop their nonsense. Prabhupāda: Lord Buddha? Rāmeśvara: I remember.... [break] Prabhupāda: ...they are all mythology. Do they not say? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore, I'm stressing on this point, that it is not mythology. It is fact. It is history. [break] Rāmeśvara: ...they are sending their sputniks to..., with televisions. Prabhupāda: They can never stay there. They're coming back. Rāmeśvara: No. Prabhupāda: They cannot go there. Rāmeśvara: But they have TV camera on the sputnik, and the sputnik is flying over the planet, and they are filming it, and they don't see any life. That is their argument. Prabhupāda: No, we have got our own argument, that the other planet is as good as this planet. If this planet is full of life, why the other not? Analogy. Analogy is also another science. Rāmeśvara: Sometimes, you write in the Kṛṣṇa book that the demigods can come to this planet invisible. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: So, if ordinary man went to some other planet through his sputnik, would he be able to see the demigods? Prabhupāda: No, why not? Some men arguing that.... Because he did not see, it does not mean there is no life. That they cannot say. Just like in the water we don't see. Superficially. Hṛdayānanda: Yeah, if they take a sputnik... Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: If they take a camera over the water, they won't see any life. Rāmeśvara: Or over the fire, they will not see any life on the sun... Prabhupāda: No. Rāmeśvara: ...with their camera. Hṛdayānanda: Even over the earth, you can't see any life. They took pictures of the earth. *Prabhupāda: That, that is their defect, that their eyes are defective. They cannot go there. That they will not accept. The camera which they manufactured, that is also defective. Because you have manufactured it. You are defective. Your senses are defective. Therefore, in the Vedic literature: "Don't try to see with your eyes, but try to see by ear, śruti. " Śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. You should accept as your eyes the śāstras. Not your so-called eyes. (end) *Room Conversation Excerpt-*-June 8, 1976, Los Angeles Indian Man: ...got the British out. Prabhupāda: Hitler one side, fought with the Britishers, smashed them. This is one cause. Another cause: Hitler helped Subhas Chandra Bose to organize I.N.A. Two causes, the Britishers to go away. Otherwise, Gandhi's noncooperation movement was started in 1917, and we got our independence in 1947. Indian Man: Thirty years. Prabhupāda: Thirty years he could not do anything. And Subhas Chandra Bose in 1940 or '42, he went out of India and organized this I.N.A with the help of Hitler, and the Britishers were obliged to leave India. What do you think? That is my estimation. Indian Man: Yes, I think so too. Yes, and he is also... Prabhupāda: And Hitler not only helped Subhas Chandra Bose to organize this I.N.A. organization, but by fighting with the Britishers, he smashed... The British lion was bandaged. There was a cartoon picture. I've seen in that way. The lion is lying down and bandaged, (makes some gestures) here and here and here, there, patched: British lion. (laughter) That's a fact. Indian Man: Subhas Chandra Bose he was in, I think he was... Prabhupāda: He was my college friend. We studied in the same college. Indian Man: Is that right? Prabhupāda: He was one year senior to me. He appeared(?) from the year 1919, I appeared(?) in 1920. Indian Man: Yes. And then he was in a plane crash? Or...? Prabhupāda: There is a great history. Indian Man: Yes. I don't know if it is true. [break] ...taken sannyāsa, and just gone out somewhere. Prabhupāda: So anyway, although you have got independence, India, oh, what is the profit? Hari-śauri: The independence is just about to come, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you start preaching there. *Prabhupāda: Real sva*-raja is to go back to home, back to Godhead. (end) *Room Conversation-*-June 8, 1976, Los Angeles Trivikrama: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Śrīla Prabhupāda, today I made arrangements for my tickets. I'll be leaving Saturday. So you're leaving Friday, so it's just nice. Prabhupāda: You're going to? Trivikrama: Hong Kong first, make sure Dai Nippon gets printed nicely. Prabhupāda: They have got a press in Hong Kong? Trivikrama: Yes. At least an office. I'm not... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa said there was a press, but I'm not sure. Prabhupāda: What is this? Hari-śauri: It says here that this is possibly the very first newspaper article of your arrival in the West. This is, er, this was written at the time that you, the very first month you were there. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Butler. Trivikrama: It says you may stay for one month (laughs). Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Hari-śauri: It says you have come for one month as a commissioner to preach bhakti*-yoga in the West. Prabhupāda: Called me "Ambassador." It is a very old article. Where you got it? Trivikrama: From one... Candanācārya had a copy. Prabhupāda: Oh. It was in Butler in 19... Devotee: You were staying in the YMCA. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] So I did not say anything seriously, but perhaps he took it very seriously, Gopal's father. So he might have written to Gopal that "Swami Bhaktivedanta wants to go to America. If you sponsor, then he can go." So whatever the correspondence was there between the father and son, I did not know. I simply asked him, "Why don't you ask your son Gopal to sponsor so that I can go there? I want to preach there." So after some months, three, four months, the No*-Objection Certificate from the Indian embassy in New York, Gopal sent to me, yes, that he had already sponsored my arrival there for one month. So all of a sudden I got the paper, No-Objection Certificate by the Indian embassy. After so much inquiry, I learned that so much inquiry was done and so on, so on. Then I tried to take a passport and paper process. So I got the passport. Then I approached that Śrīmatī Morarji. She once gave me five hundred rupees in exchange of my Bhāgavata book, so I approached her, that "Give me one ticket." They have got their shipping company, Scindia Navigation. So she said, "Swamiji, you are so old, you are taking this so responsibility. Do you think it is right?" "No, it is all right." (laughs) At that time, I was seventy years old. So all the secretary, they thought that "Swamiji is going to die there." Anyway, they gave me the ticket, one return free ticket by their ship. Then arrangement was going on. So there is another process to get a P-form. You know. *Guest: P*-form. *Prabhupāda: P*-form sanctioned by the state government, yes, state government. So it was applied for. It was... No sanction was coming. Then I went to the State Bank of India, the officer Mr. Bhattacari. So he told me: "Swamiji, you are sponsored by private man. So we cannot accept it. If you are invited by some institution, then we could consider, but you are invited by a private man for one month, and, after one month, if you are in difficulty, and there will be so much obstacles and so on." "Well, I have already prepared everything to go." So I said that "You, what you have done?" "No, I have decided not to sanction your P-form." "No, no, don't do this. You better send to your superior. It should not be done like that." So he took my request and he sent the file to Chief Officer of Foreign Exchange, something like that. Anyway, he is the supreme man in the State Bank of India. So I went to see him. So I asked his secretary that "You have got such file? You kindly put to Mr...."-his name was Mr. Rao-"I want to see him." So the secretary agreed, and he put the file and put my slip that I wanted to see him. I was waiting. So Mr. Rao came personally. He said, "Swamiji, I have passed your case. Don't worry." (laughs) In this way. Hari-śauri: He knew you from before, or...? Prabhupāda: No. He did not know me. So somebody saw him in Bombay, so he reminded that "I know Swamiji when he went to USA." Somebody was telling me. Hari-śauri: He remembered. Prabhupāda: Hmm. The name is there, he remembered. After all, he is officer. He knows so many things. So it is a great history. (laughs) There was two days I was attacked in heart on the ship. So hardship. Trivikrama: Then you had a dream? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: What was that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That is... (laughs) The dream was I must come here. Hari-śauri: It was some instruction that you got? Prabhupāda: The dream was that Kṛṣṇa in His many forms was bowing the row. What is called? Hari-śauri: Rowing the boat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Trivikrama: Jaya. Prabhupāda: And when I arrived in Boston I wrote that poetry. Hari-śauri: If you were only sponsored for one month, how is it that you were able to extend your visa all the time? Prabhupāda: I was extending. The immigration officer came in Boston in my boat. He inquired about this. So he asked me, "Sir, Swamiji, how long you want to stay?" So I thought that I have no shelter, I have no money, but I have got the return ticket. So I did not know how long I... (laughs) He asked me, "How long you want to stay?" So I thought, "In these circumstances, I can stay at most two months, because I have no means where to stay, how to eat, and where shall I go? So I may struggle for two months." So I told him: "I may stay at most two months." He immediately, two months, sanctioned immediately. I could not think that I shall be able to... (laughs) That one month were there, sponsoring. So I thought "Another one month, that's all," that "This gentleman has sponsored for one month. So that is guaranteed. Then I can stay another one month. That's all." So after that, so I was staying here and there without any fixity. So I was extending the visa. Each time, I was paying ten dollars. Another three months, another three months, like that. And when one year was finished, they refused: "No extension." Hari-śauri: But by that time you had some kind of... Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: ...organization going? *Prabhupāda: Yes, hmm, at that time I was at Second Avenue. So then Raya Rāma took the help of a lawyer. He took the case, that he'll give me permanent residence. So he was extending only, and each time he was taking hundred and fifty dollars. So in this way, I entered in 1965, September, up to July-no, up to May*-and in the May, month of May, there was heart stroke. Hari-śauri: That was when, '67? Trivikrama: '66. Prabhupāda: '66. Yes. '66. Yes, after one and a half year. Hari-śauri: No. That was '67 then. Prabhupāda: Because the time was taken, extension. Then, in 1967, in July, I thought, "Now the health is broken." I was very sick after heartstroke. So I thought "Now I shall not exist. So let me go to Vṛndāvana and die there." So I came back in July 1967. So this Brahmānanda and others, they were crying when I got on the boat. Hm? The heart was so weak... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You went back to India by boat? Prabhupāda: No, by plane. I think... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From San Francisco. Prabhupāda: Hm. At that time, I got some money. Five thousand was given by Jayānanda. He gave me five thousand, and Brahmānanda also gave me. So I spent some money for acquiring some... I had about six thousand. So then I purchased ticket coming back with Kīrtanānanda. In this way, came back to India. Hari-śauri: You were just saying... Prabhupāda: And again I paid five thousand rupees to Kīrtanānanda to come back. (aside:) What is that? Rādhāvallabha: Kirtirāja Prabhu bought this for your rocking chair. Prabhupāda: Oh. Rādhāvallabha: Should I put it on? Prabhupāda: Rock and roll. (devotees laugh) Hari-śauri: So when did you come back again? Prabhupāda: I came back in 1968, no '67, December. Hari-śauri: Oh, you weren't gone long then. Trivikrama: Six months. Prabhupāda: Yes, July to December. Trivikrama: And your health was better? Prabhupāda: Not very good. So many troubles. When I came back there's always a bad sound going on, gong gong gong, in my brain. Very disturbing, in this Los Angeles. I was staying in some... I forgot. Trivikrama: La Cienega? Prabhupāda: Yes, huh? Trivikrama: In La Cienega? *Prabhupāda: No, no, La Cienega, later on. I was staying near Pico, is that Pico? There was a... I think Washington Boulevard? Near there. I forgot that quarter. It is black quarter. And this boy*-who is he now? Aniruddha? What is his name? Devotee: Gurukṛpa? Prabhupāda: No, no. Aniruddha. Devotee: Gaurasundara? Prabhupāda: No, Aniruddha. Devotee: Oh, Aniruddha. Prabhupāda: Yes, he was taking care of me here in Los Angeles. And they used to come from San Francisco. First of all, I came to San Francisco from India. Then I came to Los Angeles, to start a center here. I think Dayānanda took charge of this center. Hari-śauri: So Los Angeles center was opened on your arrival back from India. And up to that time there was New York and...? Prabhupāda: San Francisco. Devotee: And Montreal? Prabhupāda: No, Montreal later. I think, maybe, Montreal first. (end) *Garden Conversation-*-June 9, 1976, Los Angeles *Nalinīkaṇṭha: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, Seventh Canto, part two. Prabhupāda: You read from very beginning? Nalinīkaṇṭha: Introduction? Prabhupāda: No, kaumāra ācaret prajño dharmān bhāgavatān iha. Nalinīkaṇṭha: *"Prahlāda Mahārāja said: One who is sufficiently intelligent should use the human form of body from the very beginning of life-in other words, from the tender age of childhood*-to practice the activities of devotional service, giving up all other engagements. The human body is most rarely achieved, and although temporary like other bodies, it is meaningful because in human life one can perform devotional service. Even a slight amount of sincere devotional service can give one complete perfection." Prabhupāda: The guests, you may read aloud to them. (long pause; Śrīla Prabhupāda exchanges a few Hindi sentences with a woman) *Nalinīkaṇṭha: "The whole purpose of Vedic civilization and of reading the Vedas is to attain the perfect stage of devotional service in the human form of life. According to the Vedic system, therefore, from the very beginning of life the brahmacārya system is introduced so that from one's very childhood-from the age of five years*-one can practice modifying one's human activities so as to engage perfectly in devotional service. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā, Chapter Two, verse 40, svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt: 'Even a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.' Modern civilization, not referring to the verdicts of Vedic literature, is so cruel to the members of human society that instead of teaching children to become brahmacārīs, it teaches mothers to kill their children even in the womb, on the plea of curbing the increase of population. And if by chance a child is saved, he is educated only for sense gratification. Gradually, throughout the entire world, human society is losing interest in the perfection of life. Indeed, men are living like cats and dogs, spoiling the duration of their human lives by actually preparing to transmigrate again to the degraded species among the 8,400,000 forms of life. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is anxious to serve human society by teaching people to perform devotional service, which can save a human being from being degraded again to animal life. As already stated by Prahlāda Mahārāja, bhāgavata-dharma consists of *In all the schools, colleges and universities, and at home, all children and youths should be taught to hear about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In other words, they should be taught to hear the instructions of Bhagavad*-gītā, to put them into practice in their lives, and thus to become strong in devotional service, free from fear of being degraded to animal life. Following bhāgavata-dharma has been made extremely easy in this age of Kali. The śāstra says: *One need only chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra. Everyone engaged in the practice of chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra will be completely cleansed, from the core of the heart, and will be saved from the cycle of birth and death." Prabhupāda: Go on. Nalinīkaṇṭha: Canto Seven, Chapter Six, text 2. *"The human form of life affords one a chance to return home, back to Godhead. Therefore every living entity, especially in the human form of life, must engage in devotional service to the lotus feet of Lord Viṣṇu. This devotional service is natural because Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the most beloved, the master of the soul, and the well*-wisher of all other living beings." Purport: "The Lord says in Bhagavad-gītā, Chapter Five, verse 29, *'The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods, and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attain peace from the pangs of material miseries.' Simply by understanding these three facts-that the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu, is the proprietor of the entire creation, that He is the best well-wishing friend of all living entities, and that He is the supreme enjoyer of everything*-one becomes peaceful and happy. For this transcendental happiness, the living entity has wandered throughout the universe in different forms of life and different planetary systems, but because he has forgotten his intimate relationship with Viṣṇu, he has merely suffered, life after life. Therefore, the educational system in the human form of life should be so perfect that one will understand his intimate relationship with God, or Viṣṇu. Every living entity has an intimate relationship with God. One should therefore glorify the Lord in the adoration of śānta-rasa or revive his eternal relationship with Viṣṇu as a servant in dāsya-rasa, a friend in sakhya-rasa, a parent in vātsalya-rasa or a conjugal lover in mādhurya-rasa. All these relationships are on the platform of love. Viṣṇu is the center of love for everyone, and therefore the duty of everyone is to engage in the loving service of the Lord. As stated by the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the Bhāgavatam, Third Canto, Twenty-fifth Chapter, thirty-eighth verse: yesām ahaṁ priya ātmā sutaś ca sakhā guruḥ suhṛdo daivam iṣṭam. 'In any form of life, we are related with Viṣṇu, who is the most beloved, the Supersoul, son, friend and guru.' Our eternal relationship with God can be revived in the human form of life, and that should be the goal of education. Indeed, that is the perfection of life and the perfection of education." Prabhupāda: Any question about this statement? You can discuss. Nalinikantha: This chapter is entitled "Prahlāda Instructs His Demoniac Schoolmates." Teaching the children. Prabhupāda: He was taking opportunity to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness during tiffin hours. When the teachers would go away... During tiffin time, of course, the teachers go away, and Prahlāda Mahārāja immediately will... (aside:) Let him come here. He'd immediately take the opportunity of preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (greets Indian guests in Bengali) Āsun, come on. [break] ...Kṛṣṇa consciousness even in the classroom. All the school friends were sons of demons, means atheist class of men. So they did not know anything about God, and Prahlāda Mahārāja was taking advantage of the school tiffin hour and preaching. So his first beginning of the teaching was kaumāra ācaret prajño dharmān bhāgavtān iha [SB 7.6.1]. From the beginning of life, when we are children, we should learn about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the beginning of his teachings. Go on. Prabhupāda: Allow some Indian dress may come in. Nalinīkaṇṭha: "Prahlāda Mahārāja continued: My dear friends born of demoniac families, the happiness perceived with reference to the sense objects..." *Prabhupāda: He is addressing his friends, "born of demoniac families, my dear friends." (laughs) Give him one chair, Dr. Wolfe. Yes, that's nice. He used to address his father also as "the best of the demons." Once his father asked him, "My dear son, what nice lesson you have learned in the school? Please tell me." So he addressed his father, asura*-vārya, "the best of the asuras." *So, "My dear father," not "father," "the best of the asuras," asurya*-vārya, the chief asura, "in my opinion," tat sādhu manye, "I think, so far I have studied," tat sādhu manye, "I think that is very nice, very honest profession of occupation for persons who are always full of anxieties." In the material world everyone is full of anxiety. That's a fact. Even in your country, the President Nixon, he was full of anxiety while he was in office, and now, out of his office, he's also full of anxiety. So just see. This is the best man in your country, president, the foremost man. So if he is full of anxiety, the others naturally... Everyone. So what is the cause of the anxiety? Asad-grahāt. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahāt. Asat means that does not exist, "not eternal," it is just opposite. Eternal is called sat, om tat sat, and asat means just the opposite. So here in this material world everything is asat. Even this body is asat; it will not exist. And what to speak of other things with reference to the body. Everything is asat. Anything material is asat; *it will not stay, either these trees or this land or this world or this country or this, anything, asat. So asad*-grahāt, on account of accepting things which are asat, not permanent, they are always full of anxiety. Just see how nicely explained, why one is full of anxiety. The reason is, he has accepted something which will not stay, endure, and he has accepted: "This is all in all. My country is all in all. My family is all in all. This body, all in all." But it will not stay. That's a practical fact. But they are sticking to these things. Deha-pātra-kalatrādiṣu ātma-sainyeṣu asatsu api. There is another verse where this word is used, asat. Everyone is thinking, "I am secure. I am born in a very good nation, state. My body is very strong. My family members are very nice, well-educated. I have got good bank balance, and I have got respectable position," so on, so on. He is thinking, "These things will save me." This world is struggle for existence, and when there is struggle, there are some soldiers. So ātma-sainyeṣu asatsu api. One is thinking that "These are my soldiers. I'll own victory in the struggle for existence." But pramattaḥ tasya nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati. But he's so mad, he knows that these things will be vanquished, and still, he does not see to it. Paśyann api na paśyati. Therefore his anxiety. So Prahlāda Mahārāja is, this version, sadā samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahāt: "On account of accepting nonpermanent things as permanent, therefore he's full of anxiety." Sadā samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahāt. Then what is the remedy? The remedy is hitvātmā-ghāṭaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam: "This andha-kūpam, dark well of ignorance, one must give up." Then vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta: [SB 7.5.5] "He must go to vana." When one goes to vana, it is called vānaprastha. So after family life, according to Vedic civilization, one has to accept vānaprastha life. And when one is fully prepared, he takes sannyāsa after vānaprastha life. So vanaṁ gataḥ means one should prepare by going to the forest for the next life of renounced order of life. That is human civilization: brahmacārī, gṛhasta, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Sannyāsa means full engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta [SB 7.5.5]. Otherwise, what is the use of going to the forest? In the forest there are many monkeys also. So that kind of life is not harim āśrayeta. He must take shelter of the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Hari. That is oṁ tat sat. And then he'll be happy. That is Vedic civilization. So Prahlāda Mahārāja is teaching to the boys, his class friends. He was five-years-old boy. Naturally, his friends are also of the same age, and he's teaching this bhāgavata-dharma. Read this. Nalinīkaṇṭha: "The happiness perceived with reference to the sense objects by contact with the body can be obtained in any form of life, according to one's past fruitive activities. Such happiness is automatically obtained without endeavor, just as we obtain distress." *Prabhupāda: Thank you. So here in the material world happiness means sense gratification, that's all. So Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "The happiness of sense gratification, obtainable in any form of life..." The birds, beasts, human beings or even the demigods, cats, dogs-everyone has got the happiness of sense gratification, namely eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That is obtainable everywhere. But the spiritual happiness, that is obtainable in human form of life. Therefore the human being from childhood... Kaumāra ācaret prajño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1]. From the very beginning of childhood. Why so early? Durlābhaṁ manusam janma. This human form of life is obtained after many, many births' evolutionary process. And adhruvam. There is no certainty that I shall live so many years. Although it is estimated that one is expected to live for at least hundred years*-that is estimation-but at the present moment at least, nobody is living up to that. So even there is such indication, still, there is no guarantee. We can die at any moment. Adhruvam, but arthadam. Although it is adhruvam-there is no guarantee-but whatever period we get, we can utilize it for the best purpose. Arthadam. We can gain the ultimate goal of life, arthadam. That is... He is giving stress. Arthadam means spiritual realization. That is arthadam. Otherwise we remain like animals. The animal has also sense gratification process: how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex and how to defend. So sukham aindriyakaṁ daitya. He is addressing his friends as daitya, "sons of the demons." He is addressing his father as "best of the demons." (laughs) There are two classes of men: deva and asura. Dvau bhūta-sargau loke daiva asura eva ca [Bg. 16.6]. In this material world there are... (aside:) Why not Dr. Wolfe may come here, bring his chair here? You can sit down there. You can bring your chair. So this sense gratification is available. Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ yat. These are called viṣaya. Viṣaya means sense enjoyment. So viṣayaḥ sarvataḥ syāt. In any form of life these four principles are there. Eating arrangement is there. (aside:) Come on. Sleeping arrangement is there. The bird, he is not anxious about eating, sleeping, mating. It is already there. He has got a nest above the tree. At night he is very safe and sleeping nicely. And in the morning, he knows, somewhere there is some fruit, he'll get his food. He's not anxious. He goes anywhere. And for mating, the male and female bird are always together. The pigeons, they are having every hour, four times, five times, mating. So that arrangement is always there. And defense? They are on the ground. As soon as there is some man, immediately they go up, defense. So they know, everyone knows, how to enjoy this viṣaya-eating, sleeping, mating and defending. So the śāstra says, viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. "These four principles of necessities of the body are available anywhere." Either you are born as a human being or a cat or a dog or a bird or beast or demigod, these are available. So we should not bother about these things. The arrangement is already there. By the grace of God, things are already there. So Nārada Muni said, "Don't bother about these things." Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ [SB 1.5.18]. So we are wandering within this universe in different forms of life, in different planets, upary adhaḥ, upari, adhaḥ, upper planetary systems, down planetary system. We are having these facilities in different standard. The demigods, they have got their different standard of life, thousands and thousands of times better than ours. We have got better standard of life. Just like the Americans, they have got better standard of life than the Indians. So this higher standard, lower standard, but whatever standard may be, the thing, the taste of material enjoyment, is there. Sex intercourse in the human form of life and the sex intercourse of the dog on the street, the taste is the same. Taste is not changed. You put any eatable either in the gold pot or in the iron pot: the taste is the same. Therefore viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. The taste of these sense enjoyable things are the same everywhere. Therefore he says sukham aindriyakaṁ yat... What is that verse? *Nalinīkaṇṭha: Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Deha*-yogena dehinām. Sex means one body is being united with another body. Deha-yogena dehinām. That is enjoyment. So Prahlāda Mahārāja says, "These things are available anywhere, without any endeavor. It can be available anywhere." Read it. Nalinīkaṇṭha: Sarvatra labhyate. Prabhupāda: Sarvatra labhyate. Sarvatra means every form of life, in every place, either in the higher planetary or lower planetary or this, everywhere, sarvatra. Hmm? Nalinīkaṇṭha: Sarvatra labhyate daivād. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Daivāt. Daivāt means "by the superior arrangement." Superior arrangement... One has become human being, one has become cat, one has become dog, one has become demigod, one has become worm of the stool*-daiva-yogena, by the arrangement of the supreme controller. But the material happiness is the same everywhere. Either one is worm in the stool or he is king in the heaven, the standard happiness is the same. Then? Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yathā duḥkham ayatnataḥ *Prabhupāda: Ah. And these things are available without any endeavor, as we get distressed condition of life without any endeavor. There are two things in this world: distress and happiness. So we don't call for distress, that "Malaria fever comes to me. I shall enjoy." Nobody says, but it comes. So similarly, this is distress. If distress comes by the superior arrangement, so happiness also will come by superior arrangement. So why should we bother about these things? Now tasyaiva hetoḥ praya... Therefore our endeavor should be for understanding ourself, self*-realization, and our relationship with God or what is God, what is the nature. These things, athāto brahma jijñāsā, this is our business, not to waste our valuable time for searching after sense gratification. It is not human civilization, and that is..., that is demonic civilization. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja, stressing. Sukham aindriyakaṁ yad... Read it? Nalinīkaṇṭha: Next one? Prabhupāda: No, no, this verse. Nalinīkaṇṭha: Prabhupāda: Hmm. Now translation and purport, read. Nalinīkaṇṭha: We just read that. Read again? Prabhupāda: The purport you have read? Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, then next verse. Nalinīkaṇṭha: No, I haven't read the purport. Prabhupāda: Oh, purport read. *Nalinīkaṇṭha: "In the material world in any form of life there is some so*-called happiness and so-called distress. No one invites distress in order to suffer, but still it comes. Similarly, even if we do not endeavor to obtain the advantages of material happiness, we shall obtain them automatically. This happiness and distress are obtainable in any form of life without endeavor. Thus there is no need to waste time and energy fighting against distress or working very hard for happiness. Our only business in the human form of life should be to revive our relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead and thus become qualified to return home, back to Godhead. Material happiness and distress come as soon as we accept a material body, regardless of what form. We cannot avoid such happiness and distress under any circumstances. The best use of human form of life, therefore, lies in reviving our relationship with the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu." Prabhupāda: So, is there any question about this statement? Arnold Weiss: Yes. What originally caused us to lose our relationship with Lord Kṛṣṇa? I understand it is due to our desires, but how is this desire manifest? Prabhupāda: Relationship is not lost. Just like you... Either you are in the prison house or you are in the kingdom of the state, your relationship with government is there. It does not mean that when you are put into the prison house to suffer, it does not mean you have lost relationship, is it that? Arnold Weiss: Yes, but why are we in the prison house? Prabhupāda: This is the cause: because you are criminal, you are put into the prison house, but the relationship continues. Arnold Weiss: What have we done to make ourselves criminals? Prabhupāda: What you have done, you are put into prison? Arnold Weiss: No, but what have we done to make ourselves criminals? What criminal acts have we performed? Prabhupāda: That you might have forgotten. Because your nature is to forget, you cannot immediately remember what you are doing exactly this time yesterday. That is your... You have forgotten, but suppose you, without any knowledge, you do something criminal. So you must be punished. You may not know. You cannot say in the court that "I did not know by committing this act I'll be punished." So you know or not know. You have done it; you must be punished. You may not know what you have done, but that does not mean you can avoid punishment. Arnold Weiss: I understand that. It sounds reasonable to me. When we do this act for which we are punished, is it done in this life or done in some prior life? Prabhupāda: This life or prior life, because you are eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. You are eternal. Arnold Weiss: Would the prior life have to be an animal life? Prabhupāda: Yes, might be. Arnold Weiss: Or could the prior life also be human life? Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. There are 8,400,000 different forms of life, and you are one of them now, as you, as soul, you are the same; *the body is changed. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said in the Second Chapter that "Arjuna, you, Me and all these persons who are assembled here, they existed in their previous lives, they are now existing, and they'll continue to exist." So our life is eternal. That is the first instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. This living entity, soul, is never born, neither he dies. It is simply change of body. Just like you just took this sweater. That means you are there, and you may give up the sweater again. So your body is changing like dress, but you are the same. So your... In previous... Just like now we are elderly gentleman, but we were a child. That's a fact. At that time the body was different. You are a young man; *the body was different. And again you'll become old man like me, your body will be different. So in this life also we are experiencing going through different types of body. Similarly, after giving up this body, I'll have another body. Where is the difficulty to understand? Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati. *So dehāntara*-prāptir, to accept another body, that is inevitable. Now, what kind of body you'll accept... You'll not accept. You'll be forced to accept, according to your work, karmaṇā daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1], by superior arrangement. After death, after giving up this body... Generally, at the time of death, your mental condition will carry you to a similar body. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. This is the general, but it is under superior arrangement. So we are changing this body continually, cycle of birth and death. That is material world. Therefore it is said that according to the body, the standard of happiness, distress, is there. So that will come automatically by nature's law. Therefore there is no need of endeavoring improving or subduing this kind of bodily comforts. That you cannot change; *it is all destiny. You try for self*-realization. What you are? Why you are in this body? Why you are suffering? These questions should be discussed. That is human life. *Arnold Weiss: God, of course, has put this entire human life picture together, and we, of course, cannot really understand His motives or reasons for this. But if there was some understanding that could be imparted to us... Is there? I ask the question, "Is there any understanding that can be imparted to us, to understand some of His motives for this?" Because it seems to me that we suffer a great deal to be able to turn towards Him, and yet in the Bhagavad*-gītā He says something like "One million will seek Me, but only one out of that million will find Me." Prabhupāda: Yes. Arnold Weiss: So your chances are very, very little, and God, of course, understands this. *Prabhupāda: No, chances are very little, and chance is immediate. Ordinarily, the chance is very little, but if you accept what God says, immediately... Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated, *So by regular process, it will take many, many births, bahūnāṁ janmanām. When he is actually jñānavān, then he surrenders to God, and he understands vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: [Bg. 7.19] "Everything is Vasudeva." Sa mahātmā sudur... So if we are intelligent, we can take this verse seriously, that "Although it is very difficult to understand Vasudeva"*-it takes many, many births to understand this fact-"but if one has to come to this point, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], why not do it immediately?" That is intelligence. So if we surrender to God immediately, the thing is very easy; it is a task of one minute only. But if you don't do that, then it is difficult. Go on, birth after birth, birth after birth. Arnold Weiss: Why... I understand that. It seems very acceptable in an intuitive sense, but then the mind sort of questions some of these things. Prabhupāda: Is there water? Bring it. Hmm, yes? Arnold Weiss: The mind questions some of these things, and these questions kind of flow naturally, and one wonders why the structure of the universe or of the world has been made in such a fashion that it takes a great deal of misery and difficulty for us to turn towards God. Prabhupāda: Because he doesn't want to turn towards God. Arnold Weiss: Because we don't want to? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like God says that "You surrender unto Me." And who is going to surrender? He says clearly, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], and who is doing that? So why he'll not suffer? He must suffer. He would not do that. He'll try to become himself God: "No, why shall I surrender to God? I am God." He is dog, he is kicked even by dog, and he's still thinking, "I am God." This is the difficulty. *Arnold Weiss: So as I understand it*-tell me if I interpret it correctly-we're being put more or less into our place, being shown where we really are in relation with God through our suffering. Prabhupāda: Yes. God is giving you the remedy, that "You surrender to Me, you are immediately relieved from all sufferings." But we shall not do that. So what is the alternative than suffering? This is common sense. Arnold Weiss: This is a lesson in learning through contrast, then. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Arnold Weiss: This is a lesson in learning through contrast, the contrast of suffering versus not suffering. Prabhupāda: Yes. Suffering, this is only suffering. This material world is only suffering, but under illusion we are accepting suffering as enjoyment. Arnold Weiss: Is this because the illusion that we see is a representation of the spiritual world in a sense? Prabhupāda: Illusion is another punishment. We wanted to forget God, and God's illusory energy is giving him facility to forget God. This is called illusory energy. *Arnold Weiss: In the beginning, when we were first part of God, as I understand from reading Bhagavad-gītā and some of your other translations and purports, which I enjoy very much-I thank you for making them available*-I understand that our souls are also part of God, as a drop of water is part of that ocean. How... Is there any knowledge or information of how we incurred this first separation from God? Prabhupāda: Separation... Generally, when we want to become God, there is separation. Arnold Weiss: A rebellion. Prabhupāda: You cannot... There is one God, and if you want to become God, you are immediately driven away: "Just become God in the material world. Go there and try to become God." Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda? There is a parallel in the Bible that Lucifer broke away from God because He wanted to be God. Prabhupāda: That's it. Arnold Weiss: I was thinking that too. Prabhupāda: (laughs) This rascaldom... This rascaldom makes him a dog. Instead of God, he become a dog. So this rascaldom is going on, that "I am God." For this purpose he's suffering, and still, he wants to continue it. Nobody can become God; God is one. Ekaṁ brahma dvitīyaṁ nāsti. So how we can become God? But that endeavor is going on. *Arnold Weiss: As I understand it, since God is omnipresent, omnipotent, all*-knowledgeable and all-remembering, then He is in a position where He can know what our choices are going to be, and what is going to happen with us in the future. Prabhupāda: No, no. You make a choice; you can change it. But as soon as you change it, God knows what you are going to do. This is very common sense. Suppose you are honest man; *I entrust you with something. But as soon as you become dishonest, immediately I withdraw my interest (entrust?), because I know what you'll do. So you have got little independence. You are put into certain position, but you can change it at anytime. So your position is, actually, you are eternal servant of God. As soon as you change it, then your suffering begins. In the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find, after instructing Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, Kṛṣṇa is asking, "Now I have instructed you everything. Now whatever you like, you can do." Yathechasi tathā kuru. That independence you have got. Kṛṣṇa, or God, does not interfere with the little independence He has given to us. And because we are part and parcel of God, God is fully independent, so we have got little portion of independence. So by misusing that independence, we can desire to become God, and we suffer. Arnold Weiss: Isn't it within the nature of our souls to have... *Prabhupāda: That is the nature, little independence. That is the nature. You can properly use independence, and you can improperly use. That is the meaning of independence. That you can use it improperly. Then you suffer. That is the meaning of independence. If it is that I have got independence-I cannot use it otherwise*-that is not independence. Arnold Weiss: So that small, miniscule amount of independence we have represents our free will in making decisions and choices towards either returning toward God or trying to go on our own way, which is the origin of our original position, being in this material world. Very interesting. *Prabhupāda: So therefore Kṛṣṇa said that "The most confidential part of knowledge I am giving you, Arjuna, because you are My very intimate friend, that you give up your nonsense plans." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "You just surrender to Me. This is the most confidential knowledge. You can misuse your independence, but I am instructing you most confidentially because you are My intimate. Don't make plans like rascals. You just surrender to Me. This is confidential." Or in other words, "Don't foolishly try to become God. You remain a servant. Surrender to..." This is the ultimate instruction. Find out in the Eighteenth Chapter, sarva-guhyatamam. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. Danavīr: Prabhupāda: Where it is, which chapter? Danavīr: Eighteenth chapter. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There, sarva*-guhyatamam? Before that, there is another verse, sarva-guhyatamam. Nalinīkaṇṭha: *"Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit." Purport. "The Lord has given Arjuna confidential knowledge of the Supersoul within everyone's heart, and now He is giving the most confidential part of this knowledge: just surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At the end of the Ninth Chapter He has said, 'Just always think of Me.' The same instruction is repeated here to stress the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā. This essence is not understood by a common man, but by one who is actually very dear to Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. This is the most important instruction in all Vedic literature. What Kṛṣṇa is saying in this connection is the most essential part of knowledge, and it should be carried out not only by Arjuna but by all living entities." Prabhupāda: Then next verse. Nalinīkaṇṭha: "Always think of Me and become My devotee..." *Prabhupāda: So instead of becoming devotee, he wants to become God. And that is the problem. But it is the most confidential part of knowledge. Instead of carrying out the orders of God, he wants to order God. You see? Even in the lower stages of devotion, that mentality continues, that "God is order*-supplier. If God carries my order, then I accept God. Otherwise I reject Him." In Germany... One of my German Godbrothers, he told me in 1935 that in the last world war, many people became atheists. They went to the church and prayed, especially women, "My husband may come back," "My brother may come back," or "My father may come back." Because all men went to the war field, and the women were there, they prayed in the churches. But nobody came back, and they became atheists. That means they took God as order-supplier. They ordered God, "Return my father. Return my brother. Return my husband," and God did not return. "Ah, there is no God. I don't care." This is going on. God is order-supplier. But our philosophy is God is not order-supplier; *we are order*-carriers of God. Anukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśilanaṁ bhaktir uttamā [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Just like Arjuna became. He became carrier of order of Kṛṣṇa. He did not like to fight, to kill the family members, but when he understood that Kṛṣṇa wants it, then he..., "Yes." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73]. Find out this verse, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labhdā tvat-prasādān madhusūdanaḥ. Nalinīkaṇṭha: *Prabhupāda: Tava. Sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ: "Now I am situated in the real position, without any doubt." What is that position? Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava: "I shall carry out your order. I'll not ask you to become my order-supplier, but I shall carry out your order." And this is perfection of Gītā knowledge. And he did it. He did not like to kill his family members, but he did it. He killed Bhismadeva. He killed his teacher, Dronācārya. He killed his nephews, brothers, everyone. Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava: "You want it? All right, never mind. Even though I don't want it, I must do it." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Anukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śilanaṁ bhaktir uttamā [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. "I should not place any motive before God. I shall carry out the motive of God"*-that is bhakti. So what is that confi...? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Nalinīkaṇṭha: Mām evaiśyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo 'si me: "Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me." *Prabhupāda: Now, if He is ordering to become His devotee, how can I try to become another God, competitor? This is the folly, and for this we are suffering. He asked him, "You become My devotee." And I want to become another God, competitor. And therefore we are suffering. We cannot become another God. That is not possible. But artificially you are trying. Therefore you are suffering. Anything you try artificially, you'll suffer. If you try for a thing artificially, then what is the result? Result will be suffering and disappointment. Therefore śāstra says, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovidaḥ. Don't try for such things... You have tried all through in different forms of life. You have failed. So don't try for that. But try to become servant of God. Then your life will be successful. Because in the material world the endeavor is how to become God in different varieties: how to become president, how to become minister, how to become master, how to become very strong man, very wealthy man, very beautiful man, so on, so on, so on, up to*-when everything fails-then how to become God. When everything fails, then, ultimately, "Now I shall become God." The same disease is there, how to become big, now the biggest. And that is the same disease in a different form. Therefore, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, it is said, kṛṣṇa-bhakta-niṣkāma, ataeva śānta, bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī-'aśānta' [Cc. Madhya 19.149]. Bhukti means material enjoyment. Karmīs... Just like ordinary men, they are working so hard day and night. This airplane is running here and there, (loud airplane passing over) day and night, carrying karmīs. So this is bhukti. How to enjoy this material world fully, this is called bhukti. So because they are after bhukti, how there can be peace? He has to work very hard. And mukti, those who are jñānīs, they are trying to become one with God. So that is also very difficult. But still, there are so many sādhanas. That is also... But the desire is there. The karmīs are desiring to enjoy material world, and the jñānīs are desiring to become the supreme. That is also another desire. So bhukti mukti siddhi. Yogis, they are trying to achieve some mystic power. And if you attain some mystic power, without airplane if you can fly... The yogis can do that. Or if you can walk on the water... The yogis can do it. This is called laghimā-siddhi, to become light, very light. So that... By yoga practice you can do that. So animā, laghimā, siddhi, prāpti, mahimā-there are so many siddhis. So siddhi-kāmī, they are also desiring something. And the jñānīs, they are also desiring something, and karmīs, they are also desiring something. The bhakta, he does not desire anything. Therefore peacefulness is for him, because he does not desire anything. He does not ask God anything. That is śūnyam. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [BRS 1.1.11]-no motive. That "I am becoming a devotee for this purpose"-no, that is not pure devotee. "I am eternal servant of God, so it is my duty to serve Him, that's all." That is peace. And so long he'll desire, then he'll not have any peace. That is not possible. Indian lady: This siddhis, do they harm sometimes humanity with their siddhis also? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian lady: With the siddhis... One who has attained all these siddhis, all these powers, do they harm humanity sometimes? *Prabhupāda: Anything without devotion to the Lord is harmful to the humanity. Anything, either karmī or jñānī or siddhi, it is all harmful, because all these things will keep him aloof from God. His mission is that he is separated from God. His mission should be how to go back to home, back to Godhead. So all these things*-bhukti, mukti, siddhi-will keep him aloof from God. Therefore it is harmful. It will not allow him to go nearer to God, and that is harmful. That is the greatest harm. Being aloof from God, he's suffering. So these bhukti, mukti, siddhi will keep him aloof from God. He'll falsely think that "I am God." Yogis, if they can show some mystic yogic power, then naturally foolish people will think him that "Oh, here is God." And he's satisfied with that. He's not God, but foolish people will adore him as God, and he's satisfied. That means he keeps himself aloof from God. After this mystic power is gone, then he is no more valuable. So anything which keeps one aloof from God, that is harmful. Indian lady: But if they misuse these mystic powers, then they cannot stay as a mystic. *Prabhupāda: And why he's after mystic power? What is the use of mystic power. Suppose if you have got this mystic power*-you can walk over the water-so what benefit you'll get? There is a boat also. It can walk on the river or on the ocean Does it mean his all questions are solved? Suppose you can walk over the water. So I cannot walk. I take a boat and pay him four annas. So what is the difference between you and me? It is a question of four annas, that's all (laughter). So why do you endeavor for this rascaldom, and make some jugglery to the foolish people? If you have to walk over the water, you can pay four annas to the boātmān and can do it. Why for this so many mystic power? Bharadraja: Kaitava. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Bharadraja: This is all kaitava*-dharma. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, kaitava. You do not get any more benefit. After practicing yoga for ten years, twenty years, if you learn this art how to walk over water, so you can show the magic to the foolish man. But intelligent man will say, "It is a question of four annas. I can walk. Why shall I waste my time, twenty years, for learning this art?" Indian lady: Sometimes these mystic powers, they use on human beings... Prabhupāda: This is one of the mystic powers which amaze people, foolish people. Indian lady: But they can use on human beings also... Prabhupāda: What human being? Indian lady: In their life or... Prabhupāda: No, no, suppose human being learns how to walk over water. Is that the solution of all problems? So what is the benefit to the human being? Suppose you have this mystic yogic power, you can walk over the water, and you teach the whole human society how to walk over the water. (laughter) What is the benefit there? Indian lady: But for some creation of something or so many things they show... Prabhupāda: That means you have no clear idea, "something, something." Actually there is no benefit. You do not know what is benefit. Indian lady: Can anybody create anything with this mystic power, any idol of God or any idol of devotee or anything, and then turn them to..., just a good mission to turn them to God? Prabhupāda: What is that mission? Indian lady: Well, er... Prabhupāda: Practically come to the... Suppose if you learn how to walk, or how to fly in the air. Nowadays they are flying, the big, big airplane flying. They have not learned this mystic power. By machine they are doing that. Suppose if you fly by mystic power from here, Los Angeles, to Bombay or Nairobi, and another man flys over by the plane. Then where is the difference? It is a question of pounds or dollars. So what benefit do we get? Why do you give so much importance, who is flying or walking on the water? Better utilize the time to realize God. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. This is called in the śāstra, that anything you do, if it does not awaken your God consciousness, then it is śrama eva hi kevalam. It is simply working for nothing, waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. (aside:) Hmm, give him some prasāda. And others, what about? No, you can take this... Prasāda. Others, them also. (Hindi) If we do not awaken our God consciousness, anything you do, that is all waste of time. That is wanted in the human form of life, to revive our God consciousness. That is the most important business. So, any other questions? Arnold Weiss: I do, but I can't take all your evening. It would be unfair of me if I did, but I have a lot of questions. Prabhupāda: So we shall also go. Distribute this prasādam to everyone. Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] *Prabhupāda: If you cannot do anything, you can ask anybody, "Become a devotee of God." Three words: "Just become a devotee of God." Anyone can, even a child can do. It is so easy. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad*-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68]. Kṛṣṇa says that "Anyone who preaches this gospel, he is the dearmost person to Me." So what is that gospel? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān partiyajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: "You just surrender unto Me." So if we go to every home, every person, and say "Just you surrender to God, Kṛṣṇa," that is our preaching. Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 9, 1976, Los Angeles Rāmeśvara: (in car:) He wanted to come and be here when you see the movie. Prabhupāda: (sings) Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya prabhu, dayā koro more... Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometime today the new copies of the second volume of Seventh Canto are coming from the printer today. That's the volume with the section about Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva killing Hiraṇyakaśipu and Prahlāda's prayers. Prabhupāda: Ah. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda was lecturing on that in Māyāpura. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hṛdayānanda: In Māyāpura you were lecturing on the prayers. Rāmeśvara: So that volume is coming today. Prabhupāda: [break]....culture and civilization is being introduced by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for the benefit of the whole human society. The modern civilization is not civilization. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti; *mām eva param avyayam. Ninety*-nine percent or ninety-nine point nine percent people do not believe in the transmigration of the soul. Is it not? Rāmeśvara: In India people believe. Prabhupāda: No, India believes. India have no authority. Hṛdayānanda: I think now there is.... People are becoming more interested in this theory. They say theory. I think there is more interest now. I'm talking to common people. They're... *Prabhupāda: So if there is next life*-they believe-then what they are doing for the next life? Rāmeśvara: The Christians only believe in one life, and after that one life you either go to heaven or to hell forever. Hṛdayānanda: For that reason people have rejected Christianity, because they cannot explain, for example, why a child, for example, is being killed. He's innocent. But by our philosophy it can be explained. For that, people, intelligent people... Prabhupāda: Christian religion is speculation. All these philosophers, talking on Christian religion, speculating.... No clear idea. Hari-śauri: These church fathers that we've just done on the philosophy book, they are simply speculating about what was in the original Bible. *Prabhupāda: No clear conception, scientific idea. Therefore educated persons, they are not interested. "God, give us daily bread." They will say, "Why we shall go to church for begging bread? We can manufacture it, large quantity." (laughs) Why they should go? Formality: "God, give us our daily bread." "Just open a big factory and eat as much bread as we like. Why should we go to God?" [break] ...Jawaharlal Nehru, he took this view, that "For economic development why should you go to the temple, ask this demigod, that demigod, 'Give me this. Give me this'? Develop industry and get money to enjoy." That is his.... [break]...description of God in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam begins: janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ [SB 1.1.1]. This is God, the origin of everything. Who is there who can challenge this explanation, "The origin of everything"? Now, what is that origin? Whether it is matter or sentient? No. Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś ca abhijñaḥ [SB 1.1.1]. He knows everything. Therefore He's a person. Otherwise, how He can be origin of everything? Anvayād itarataś ca. Suppose I.... If I have manufactured this car, then I know every nook and corner of this car, how I have manufactured. One who has manufactured, he knows how it is working, every minute feature. Even an expert driver, he knows how many parts are there, which part is.... Anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ. If he's abhijñaḥ, if he's completely cognizant of every part of the whole creation, then He has created. (pause) All Santa Monica city? Hṛdayānanda: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda [break] ...a very clear day. Prabhupāda: Clear? That is not clear. So many clouds. Hṛdayānanda: I mean for visibility, for seeing. Rāmeśvara: He says you can see the clouds. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: There's no smog. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we were painting one painting for the last volume of Seventh Canto which shows that Kṛṣṇa is in the heart of all living entities. Now, the question came up whether Kṛṣṇa.... Since Kṛṣṇa is inside every atom, are there living entities in every atom? So I said that you had already answered that, that Kṛṣṇa is never alone, so there must be some living entity within the atom. So then the question was: Is this atom one of the bodies, just like human body, and then gradually that living entity gets a higher body, higher body, or does he always remain inside the atom? Prabhupāda: Body does not develop. He changes body. Why don't you understand this? Rāmeśvara: He changes body. Prabhupāda: The motorcar does not develop. I change this motorcar to another. Rāmeśvara: But that's the question. Prabhupāda: That is Darwin's theory. Motorcar is not developing to big motorcar. That is nonsense. Motorcar is motorcar, but I can change from this car to that car. Hari-śauri: Yes, that's what he was wondering, whether the spirit soul leaves the atom to take another higher body. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is always.... Transmigration means going on, simply changing. Rāmeśvara: Is that counted as one of the 8,400,000 species? Is the atom counted among the different species? Prabhupāda: Atom is not manifested. May be one of the species, but the total is 8,400,000. What is the difference between the small atom and this body? The same thing, material. It's very small; *it is a little bigger. That's all. And similarly, the universe is still bigger. After all, it is matter. [break] ...prakṛti. Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. What is this? He's standing on election? [break] *Rāmeśvara: It is written in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta that when Lord Caitanya entered this universe, the entire universe was blessed, or benefited. So I'm wondering how Lord Caitanya's movement is going on on other planets other than this planet. Is there some organized saṅkīrtana? Prabhupāda: Yes. How other planetary system is going on, you do not know, but we can guess it is going on like this. Anumāna. Pratyakṣa anumāna. One thing is direct perception, another by guessing. Pratyakṣa anumāna and śabda and śruti, aitihya. There are so many evidences. Harer nāma harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya prabhu... Rāmeśvara: Devotees once told me you said that the demigods like this movement very much so that they're standing in line to take their birth in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They like to come here on this planet. Just like you Kṛṣṇa conscious men, you are very much enthusiastic to go to India. India has no material attraction, but why our men wanted to go to India in spite of so many difficulties? Similarly, in the higher planet, heavenly planet, they are so much engrossed with material happiness that there is no facility. But here there is facility, in this earth, Bhūrloka. Bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām [Bg. 2.44]. One who is too much attached to material convenience and everything, they have no opportunity for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you wrote that we don't have to be concerned that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will deliver the whole world, because it will fill up again. Even if we can bring everyone back to Godhead, it will just be finished up again with more conditioned souls. Prabhupāda: That means there are so many conditioned souls, one after another, coming. And the conditioned souls are the few of the whole living entities. Just imagine what is the total! (laughs) Rāmeśvara: It can't be imagined. Prabhupāda: And majority in the spiritual world, and one fourth, minority, is here in so many innumerable universes. Rāmeśvara: There are also many spirit souls in the Brahman effulgence, the spiritual sky. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rāmeśvara: The spiritual sky. Prabhupāda: Full of these souls. They have no forms. Just like sun. Sunshine means small illuminating sparks. [break] (out of car:) Flowers, they are good medicine for dysentery. [break] Hṛdayānanda: ...surrounded by mountains, but normally the air is so dirty, it's not possible to see them, but today it's so clear. Prabhupāda: [break] ...bluff subject. Rāmeśvara: The edge of the cliff, there may be some rockslide. Hari-śauri: Just like the path used to go there, but it fell through. Prabhupāda: Path may slide? That is a warning? Hari-śauri: They put that warning there so that no one can sue the city authorities if someone is killed if the cliff falls apart. Prabhupāda: Therefore not many people come here. [break] ...animal kingdom, by nature's arrangement, the couple, one male and one female, is fixed up, fixed up, this one female, one male. But amongst the monkeys, dogs and jackals, there is no fixed up. Hari-śauri: Anything that comes along. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore in the human society, a man and woman not fixed up, they are monkeys, jackals and dogs. By marriage it is fixed up, but if they do not fix up, they are compared with the jackals, dogs and monkeys. Hari-śauri: Hogs as well? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hogs, also like. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From the material point of view people cannot see the purpose of accepting responsibility. Prabhupāda: I do not follow. What is this? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, from the spiritual point of view, we know that if we're not responsible, then we have to suffer great consequences according to our actions. From the material point of view, though, people can live an irresponsible life, and they have some earnings. They feel that they can enjoy. What is the need for morality? Prabhupāda: Then what is a responsible life? Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, their whole plan is to avoid responsibility. *Prabhupāda: That is sinful. As soon as you irresponsible, you are sinful. [break] ...soon as you forget the simple truth that you are servant of God, you are irresponsible. Now your suffering begins. [break] ...kṛṣṇa*-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare (Prema-vivarta). Just like as citizen of your state, you have to abide by the laws of the state. As soon as you disobey, you are irresponsible. That's all. You suffer. Good citizen means who abides by the laws of the state. And as soon as you break it, immediately you are irresponsible and you must be punished. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Practically, though, without God consciousness, isn't it that people see that whether they are moral or not moral, they still suffer? *Prabhupāda: Yes. This material world is meant for suffering. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. That is the description in the Bhagavad*-gītā. This is a place for suffering. And that is also temporary. You cannot make adjustment: "Never mind, it is suffering; I shall remain here." No, that also will not be allowed. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the marriage ceremonies that they have, they make vow before God that "Until death do us part, we will not separate," but so many divorces are there. Prabhupāda: That is suffering. Rāmeśvara: If a man can have an affair with many different women, he's considered fortunate. It is his success. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's on the front page of all the magazines. Hari-śauri: "Bachelor daddy." Prabhupāda: Therefore they want to become gopīs. That is the tendency, sahajiyā. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like transcendental hippie*-life. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No responsibility. Prabhupāda: Other relationship of Kṛṣṇa rejected, take, jump over the gopīs' relationship. This is the meaning. [break] ...this line? Is it not? So as many lines, that means so many years. Hari-śauri: [break] ...cut inside the tree, there's circles, and for each circle that means one year. That's what they say, anyway. Prabhupāda: Island separate? Mahendra: That's an island, Śrīla Prabhupāda, yes. Santa Catalina island. It's a very big tourist resort. We were just discussing how it would be nice to send saṅkīrtana party there for book distribution. Gopavṛndapāla: We already do that every weekend. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...problems. It seems there are so many social problems in the world today that by patchwork nothing can, er, can't hope to come of anything good. Prabhupāda: Because they do not know what is the aim of life. [break] ...one center. With center, you can draw so many circles, big or small; they will not overlap. But if you have got different center, it will overlap. Your circle will come upon me; *my circle will go upon.... So there is svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. They do not know the central point is Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: People sometimes criticize us that if our movement becomes very large and everyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, no one will want to become a doctor or technician, and everything will fall to hell. Prabhupāda: Why don't you say if your movement goes on, there will be no need of that. (laughter) Kīrtirāja: No lawyers. Prabhupāda: No need. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bas. That's all. Devotee: No one to run the factories? *Prabhupāda: No, no need. These are anarthas, unnecessary things. So in the Bhāgavata, anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje [SB 1.7.6]. When there is bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, all these anarthas useless. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. People may not misunderstand that we don't want other things. We want everything, but we want central point, Kṛṣṇa. [break] (in car:) ...Bharati, with whom you had some talks, he does not speak anymore? Hṛdayānanda: We have not heard anything. Hari-śauri: He tries to cause a disturbance, though, whenever he can. I was told by one of the boys in the Library Party that he's prevented a lot of standing orders being taken by speaking with professors and condemning our movement. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: He's still creating a disturbance. Prabhupāda: Cancelling standing orders? Hari-śauri: They've actually taken standing orders and then had them cancelled because of this man. Rāmeśvara: Not so much. Hari-śauri: Not so much, but he's doing it when he can. [break] Rāmeśvara: ...surprised that you have written so many books. They cannot understand how you could write so much. They wonder whether you were a great Sanskrit scholar for many years, so they try to guess. They just can't imagine anyone writing so much. Prabhupāda: We are exceeding all material authors except Vyāsadeva. Rāmeśvara: Vyāsadeva. *Prabhupāda: One book, seventeen volumes, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. That is also.... So many, our Godbrothers, attempted. Everyone is... Hari-śauri: Have any of your Godbrothers translated anything? *Prabhupāda: They died half*-way finished. Hari-śauri: Śrīdhara Mahārāja never did anything? Rāmeśvara: They wonder where you have made the time to study so much about ancient Indian culture that you could write so much. They cannot understand that. They read.... There is a biography of Your Divine Grace in the *Bhāgavatam*, that mentions different things, and they just can't understand how you could know so much. It is beyond material... Prabhupāda: One young man in Tokyo or some airport, very nice young man. He came. I was sitting. "Swamiji, can I talk with you?" "Yes." So, "I have seen your photograph. Where you have got so much vast knowledge?" (laughs) And I..., "It is not my knowledge; it is Vyāsadeva's knowledge." So his first question was, intelligent boy. Hari-śauri: He'd obviously read fair amounts of your books. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is a house, four*-story? *Hari-śauri: That one's three*-story. Prabhupāda: Three? And down, motor garage. Hari-śauri: Right. Rāmeśvara: That is the biggest, but I discussed with Karandhara, and he said they will not give permission for more than two stories. He has already inquired. Prabhupāda: Why? Rāmeśvara: They have some crazy reason. They make very strict laws regarding housing. It is a problem everywhere in the United States, so many things you have to comply with. Just like in Dallas there were so many things they wanted us to do for housing. (end) *Room Conversation-*-June 9, 1976, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: ...could not eat one cāpāṭi. (laughter*-Prabhupāda laughs) Later on: "Bring more!" Kīrtanānanda: Prabhupāda was feeding us all from his own plate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sit down. [break] New spoon? *Hari*-Sauri: Yes, a new spoon. I think Jagannātha-sūta bought it, and a few others. Prabhupāda: That article is very nice, Jagannātha's... *Hari*-Sauri: Er, Jagjīvana. Prabhupāda: Jagjīvana. Jagjīvana. *Hari*-Sauri: There's one article that he wrote for the BTG and a reply that Viśvakarmā made. Prabhupāda just read the article. Kīrtanānanda: I brought some pictures. *Prabhupāda: Ah, very nice, the Deities. (indistinct) Kiśora*-Kiśorī. Devotee: Oh, it's beautiful. Prabhupāda: Yes.... [break] Colors? Kīrtanānanda: They have many different outfits. Prabhupāda: Oh. Kīrtanānanda: All of the mukuṭas and the jewelry, everything is made there at New Vrindaban. We have very expert, ah... Prabhupāda: [break] ...can have so many engagements. Simply by making dress, we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious. Simply by cooking, we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious. Simply by cleansing the floor, we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious. Easiest method. Everyone can remain Kṛṣṇa conscious in any circumstance. Ahaituky apratihatā. It is not condition that "You have to become like this; *then you'll become Kṛṣṇa conscious." No. In whatever position you are, you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. No extra intelligence required. Śrī*-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau **. Either you dress the Deity or you cleanse the floor of the temple, the same thing. You get the result the same. Tan-mandira-mārjanādau. Anything you do. Somebody is cleansing, somebody is chanting, somebody is cooking, somebody is printing, somebody is selling books-everything is Kṛṣṇa conscious. And that is the best yoga. Sa me yuktatamo mataḥ. Yoginām api sarveṣām: [Bg. 6.47] "Of all the yogis, who is thinking of Me, always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is the topmost yogi." "By meditation I am trying to become God. By meditation one can become God." This is their foolish theory. Kṛṣṇa, when He exhibited His godly power at the age of three months, where was meditation? (laughs) God is always God. You cannot become by meditation God. You can become godly; that is possible. Hari-śauri: People become very enamored by this mystic display. You were speaking about mystic power, and peo... *Prabhupāda: Four annas. (laughter) For four annas I'll have to try for four hundred years. Why mystic power? To show some jugglery-"How I can fly in the sky, I can walk on the water"*-by this mystic power, they create amazement and become imitation God. Imitation God you can become, but you cannot become real God. That is not possible. That is warned. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. That's all. Asamaurdhva: "Nobody equal to Me; nobody better than Me." So why should you waste your time to become God? You cannot become actually. So why should you waste your time? Remain servant. Then you're actually.... Get this light. No, no that, inside. You can give me little pineapple juice. Is it possible? Hari-śauri: Right now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: You can sit down here. Then also for mahārājas. So when you started from New Vrindaban? Kīrtanānanda: This morning. Prabhupāda: And you are coming directly here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: By plane? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. I left New Vrindaban about nine o'clock. The plane left Pittsburgh at 11:30. Prabhupāda: To Los Angeles. Kīrtanānanda: Arrived here at 3:15. Prabhupāda: Pittsburgh. Kīrtanānanda: We stopped in Chicago for one hour. Prabhupāda: Oh. Kīrtanānanda: You go to Detroit from here? Prabhupāda: Hm. That is the program. Rāmeśvara: Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and Jayādvaita will be in Detroit also. Prabhupāda: Ah. Rāmeśvara: Anxiously waiting. Prabhupāda: You have seen our Detroit, new? Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is a great palace. Kīrtanānanda: I have heard it is very... Prabhupāda: It was constructed by spending six million dollars. (laughs) Kīrtanānanda: Many years ago. Prabhupāda: Yes, and it is nice palace, and we got it for 300,000. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda personally made the arrangement. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. That man was asking 350,000, so, just like ordinary arrangement, ten percent down, so I made a bargain: "All right, I'll give you 300,000 cash. Accept it." So he immediately accepted. (laughs) There was no money. Then one girl contributed 150,000, and... Kīrtanānanda: Is that the Reuther girl? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And our Ford, Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, he also... Hari-śauri: They have some fresh pineapples and a juicing machine just across the road, so someone has gone for some now. It'll be five minutes. Prabhupāda: You have seen the new publication? Kīrtanānanda: Which? Prabhupāda: Of *Bhāgavatam*. Kīrtanānanda: I was just looking at it. He was saying that you had two copies, and I said, "Ask for one." Prabhupāda: Yes, you may take. Kīrtanānanda: They are getting better and better. Prabhupāda: Yes. And our Rāmeśvara Mahārāja is guiding them. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, he's very expert. Prabhupāda: Where is the other copy? Other copy? Rāmeśvara: Other copy. Hari-śauri: You want to see? Devotee: It's in here. Prabhupāda: That gentleman who came, sitting in chair. Hari-śauri: That Indian man. Prabhupāda: Ah, Indian man. Kīrtanānanda: The print is larger in this volume? Rāmeśvara: It's the new standard since the Fifth Canto. Prabhupāda: You have seen? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, I just, I typed a little. Prabhupāda: Hm? Kīrtanānanda: I read a little. Hari-śauri: The juice should be two minutes. Śrīla Prabhupāda, the pictures in this new Bhāgavatam are the best yet. (people coming in and out of the room) Hṛdayānanda: These books will satisfy everyone, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hṛdayānanda: These books will satisfy everyone's desires. Hari-śauri: If they want blood and thunder, it's this. (laughs) Prabhupāda: So you can give one shirt to him and one to... Hari-śauri: He's getting one now. Prabhupāda: Oh, he has got. Hari-śauri: He's got one. He's getting one for Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja. Devotee: Prabhupāda is giving him one of his personal shirts. Jagadīśa: A lawyer, he's come to see your darśana in the garden for the last two nights. He's been giving us a lot of assistance in our legal needs. He seems to be very inquisitive about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He's downstairs now. I wonder if he could come up. Prabhupāda: He has some inquiries? Jagadīśa: Well, he seems to be eating up the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He's very eager to hear. Prabhupāda: Hm. Jagadīśa: He's downstairs right now. Rāmeśvara: He's charging us lower rates, doing, working as hard as he can for us at practically no profit to himself. Prabhupāda: Yes, something must be given. Jagadīśa: Can I ask him to come up? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: This is the greatest gift, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Rāmeśvara: The greatest contribution, Prabhupāda said. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda has asked that all the sannyāsīs take one shirt. [break] (conversation continues after entrance of guest) Prabhupāda: He wants chair? Rāmeśvara: He likes sitting Indian style. (Prabhupāda laughs) Jay Warner: No, this is fine, thank you. Rāmeśvara: His name is Jay Warner. Prabhupāda: Yes, I.... Ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ:"Anything which is accepted by leading men, that is accepted by others." So you are one of the leading men in the society, lawyer. If you understand our philosophy, then many others will follow. So kindly try to understand our philosophy thoroughly, and then others will follow: "He's big lawyer. He's a Kṛṣṇa conscious man." If you have any doubt, you can ask. We will try to explain. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu [Bg. 7.1]. Find out this verse. [break] It must be distinct from other paintings. Kīrtanānanda: Who did that painting? Prabhupāda: I think that was done.... Everyone has done one picture. Hari-śauri: That picture of Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva killing all the demon armies, it's a most amazing picture. He has about twenty arms. Jay Warner: I do have one question. How can one establish faith in the principle of reincarnation? How can one come to believe in it? Prabhupāda: Incarnation of God? Devotees: Reincarnation, transmigration. *Prabhupāda: That is very simple thing. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Now, you were a child. That's a fact. Were you not a child? Hṛdayānanda: You were a child before. Jay Warner: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where is that body? Jay Warner: Where is the body of the child? Prabhupāda: Yes. You were a child. Where is that body? Jay Warner: It has grown into a man. Prabhupāda: Grown, or it is changed? The same thing. But that child, that body, is no more existing. Is it not? Jay Warner: Yes, it is gone. Prabhupāda: The body may vanquish, but you are going through. That is incarnation. The child body is vanquished; it is no more existing. Either you say grow or I may say it has changed, that body is finished. Is it not? Jay Warner: Yes. Prabhupāda: But you are still existing. Jay Warner: I still feel that I am myself. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means you were in the child body and you are in this young man's body. So you are existing, but the body has changed. What is the difficulty to understand? Jay Warner: Where is it difficult to answer? Devotees: (all at once) What is the difficulty to understand? Prabhupāda: You are.... When the child's body, that body, is no more existing, you are in a different body. Jay Warner: The difficulty for me reaches the moment, retroactively, before the moment of birth, or past the moment of death. How can one come to have faith that there is life after one leaves his body? Prabhupāda: This is the proof. A child may not understand that there is, after his childhood body, there is another body, boyhood body or youthful body. He may not understand. But that is the fact. If the child says, "There is no more body. This is the final body," that is not the fact. He is going to get another body which is boy's body, young man's body, old man's body. Similarly, you may believe or not believe, you are going to get another body. The proof is that you have no more the child's body; you have got a different body. The common sense reasoning. Jay Warner: That is true. But the difficulty for me is that although my spirit wants to believe in transmigration, the scientific upbringing that was inculcated in me from a child has a hard time... Prabhupāda: What is that scientific? Jay Warner: Through empirical evidence, through evidence... *Prabhupāda: This is evidence. I ask you to show me your childhood body. Where it is? Can you show? That is finished. So if the childhood body finished, you get another body, boyhood body. Similarly, the conclusion should be that after this body*-I am old man; *it will be finished*-then I'll get another body. Jay Warner: That makes sense. *Prabhupāda: Very common sense. But we are so dull*-headed we cannot understand. Jay Warner: I am so what? *Prabhupāda: We are so dull*-headed. *Devotees: We, dull*-headed.... (laughter) Prabhupāda: Just like in the, what is called, movie spool.... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Film strip. *Prabhupāda: Film, yes. There are hundreds of bodies in the film, and when they are played, it seems that it's the same*-one man is moving-but actually, in the film there are hundreds of bodies, but it is changing so swiftly it appears one. Jay Warner: A man's eye cannot see it changing. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jay Warner: A man's eye cannot see it change. Prabhupāda: Yes. By nature's law it is changing every second in such swift way that we cannot understand. Jay Warner: How does one give up the fear of dying? *Prabhupāda: There is no death. You change body. Because the body is lost, you are no more, you do not possess the childhood body, youth*-hood body, that does no mean you are dead. You are living; the body has changed. But because we do not know the science, we think "The body is finished; *therefore he's dead." Therefore you have to learn Bhagavad*-gītā-na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. Find out the verse. *Hṛdayānanda: "For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever*-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." *Prabhupāda: That's it. So as a lawyer, when there is some dispute, you refer to the lawbook. Similarly, when there is dispute how the soul is immortal, the body is changing, you refer to Bhagavad*-gītā. You find it clear, na jāyate na mriyate, clearly said. Explain? Hṛdayānanda: Purport? "Qualitatively, the small atomic fragmental part of the supreme spirit is one with the Supreme. He undergoes no changes like the body. Sometimes the soul is called the steady..." Prabhupāda: (aside:) Just bring little salt. *Hṛdayānanda: "...or kūṭa-stha. The body is subject to six kinds of transformations. It takes its birth in the womb of the mother's body, remains for some time, grows, produces some effects, gradually dwindles, and at last vanishes into oblivion. The soul, however, does not go through such changes. The soul is not born, but, because he takes on a material body, the body takes its birth. The soul does not take birth there, and the soul does not die. Anything which has birth also has death. And because the soul has no birth, he therefore has no past, present or future. He is eternal, ever-existing and primeval*-that is, there is no trace in history of his coming into being. Under the impression of the body, we seek the history of birth, etc., of the soul. The soul does not at any time become old, as the body does. The so-called old man therefore feels himself to be in the same spirit as in his childhood or youth. The changes of the body do not affect the soul. The soul does not deteriorate like a tree, nor anything material. The soul has no by-product either. The by-products of the body, namely children, are also different individual souls, and, owing to the body, they appear as children of a particular man. The body develops because of the soul's presence, but the soul has neither offshoots nor change. Therefore, the soul is free from the six changes of the body. In the Kaṭha Upaniṣad also we find a similar passage which reads: *The meaning and purport of this verse is the same as in the Bhagavad-gītā, but here in this verse there is one special word, vipaścit, which means learned or with knowledge. The soul is full of knowledge, or full always with consciousness. Therefore, consciousness is the symptom of the soul. Even if one does not find the soul within the heart, where he is situated, one can still understand the presence of the soul simply by the presence of consciousness. Sometimes we do not find the sun in the sky owing to clouds, or for some other reason, but the light of the sun is always there, and we are convinced that it is therefore daytime. As soon as there is a little light in the sky early in the morning, we can understand that the sun is in the sky. Similarly, since there is some consciousness in all bodies-whether man or animal*-we can understand the presence of the soul. This consciousness of the soul is, however, different from the consciousness of the Supreme, because the supreme consciousness is all-knowledge-past, present and future. The consciousness of the individual soul is prone to be forgetful. When he is forgetful of his real nature, he obtains education and enlightenment from the superior lessons of Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa is not like the forgetful soul. If so, Kṛṣṇa's teachings of Bhagavad-gītā would be useless. There are two kinds of souls-namely the minute particle soul, aṇu-ātmā, and the Supersoul, the vibhu-ātmā. This is also confirmed in the Kaṭha Upaniṣad in this way: 'Both the Supersoul, Paramātmā, and the atomic soul, jīvātmā, are situated on the same tree of the body within the same heart of the living being, and only one who has become free from all material desires as well as lamentations can, by the grace of the Supreme, understand the glories of the soul.' Kṛṣṇa is the fountainhead of the Supersoul also, as it will be disclosed in the following chapters, and Arjuna is the atomic soul, forgetful of his real nature; therefore he requires to be enlightened by Kṛṣṇa, or by His bona fide representative, the spiritual master." *Prabhupāda: If you have got any question upon this statement, the statement given in the Bhagavad*-gītā, in the purport we have explained? If you have got any question over it? Jay Warner: Excuse me, I didn't... Hṛdayānanda: Do you have any question about what Prabhupāda has written here, about the purport, any question? Jay Warner: I think I understood. Kīrtanānanda: That's a beautiful purport. Prabhupāda: Hm? Kīrtanānanda: That's a nice purport. Prabhupāda: Hm. Hṛdayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think we're supposed to go for the movie. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hṛdayānanda: I think we're supposed to go for the movie. Prabhupāda: Oh, when? Rāmeśvara: It is ready. It is.... Everything is prepared. (end) Prabhupāda: "...afraid of me, what kind of child? (laughs) Where you got so much strength?" And the answer here, "Prahlāda Mahārāja said, 'My dear King, the source of my strength, of which you are asking, is also the source of yours, by which you are challenging. Indeed, the original source of all kinds of strength is one. He is not only your strength or mine, but the only strength for everyone. Without Him, no one can get any strength, whether moving or not moving, superior or inferior. Everyone, including Lord Brahmā, is controlled by the strength of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.' " So, "All right, let me see how your strength is coming. Now I shall kill you, come on. Let me see (laughs) how your God is coming to save you." This is atheism, challenging. And when He appeared, the Hiraṇyakaśipu became a fly (laughs) in front of.... Eh? Where is such language? Even there are many Sanskrit scholars now, they cannot produce such language. That is not possible. And five thousand years before, Vyāsadeva presented this unique language. *Rāmeśvara: This is the twentieth volume of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam now printed, twentieth volume. Prabhupāda: Number twenty. *Rāmeśvara: Of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam series. Prabhupāda: Out of sixty. Still forty. Rāmeśvara: So you have already finished two more volumes at least. Prabhupāda: So, say... Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda says out of sixty volumes, twenty are already printed, and... Prabhupāda: Twenty already printed, and two or three ready for being printed. Hayagrīva: But this is the bulk of the cantos, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Rāmeśvara: No, Tenth Canto will be very long. Hayagrīva: The Tenth... *Prabhupāda: Tenth Canto will be like Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, fifteen volumes, Tenth Canto. Generally six chapters a volume, eh? Rādhāvallabha: Depending on the size. Prabhupāda: No, generally. So there are ninety chapters. That means minimum fifteen volumes, and maybe more. We have presented Kṛṣṇa book, just a summary study, not explained. But when it will be explained, with each and every śloka, purport, then it will be not less than fifteen volumes. Tenth Chapter is the face of of the Lord. We have described the legs, hands, belly, that's all, and Tenth Chapter is the face, smiling face. Therefore we should not jump over the face all at once. It must go from the legs, gradually, and then face, then forehead, then hair. Eleventh, Twelfth, Twelfth Chapter, finished, the whole body of Kṛṣṇa. Hmm. So thank you very much. Devotees: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We'd like to put.... We have got in some other copies, and we would like to put them on the altar tonight for sandhyā ārati. These two are your copies. Prabhupāda: All right, take it. Rāmeśvara: But those two are for Your Divine Grace. We have others to show the Deities. Prabhupāda: All right. All right, do it. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, how you are keeping your health? Kīrtanānanda: Pretty good. Prabhupāda: That's.... And things are going nice? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. The devotees are all anxious for you, to see. Prabhupāda: Yes. And Hayagrīva Mahārāja is being forced? (laughs) Hayagrīva: You should cane me more, Śrīla Prabhupāda Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is very cunning. Hayagrīva: I know. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: (still laughing) One may try to leave Him, but He is not going to leave you. Once come, "No sir, you cannot go out." Just like our Ajāmila. He was devotee in the beginning, and later on, by bad association of prostitute, he fell, but Kṛṣṇa took him at the end. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Kṛṣṇa gave him chance to give him a son. He kept the son's name Nārāyaṇa. So on account of affection of the son, he was chanting, "Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa." Just Kṛṣṇa is so kind that (laughs) "All right, this rascal is going out of My hand. All right, give him a child, Nārāyaṇa. He will chant, 'Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa,' and that will be his credit." Ajñāta*-sukṛti. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. Sukṛti, pious activities, of many millions of birth is not equal to love of Godhead. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. Tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyaṁ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā-matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate: "Purchase Kṛṣṇa consciousness anywhere it is available." What is the price? Tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam: "Only greediness, hankering. That is the price." "Oh, that I have got." "No, no. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. You cannot obtain this price even after millions of births' pious activities." All right. Devotees: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Garden Conversation-*-June 10, 1976, Los Angeles Nalinīkaṇṭha: Ten to fifteen new devotees are doing saṅkīrtana. Prabhupāda: Very good. Nalinīkaṇṭha: Ten new book distributors in the last month. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa will give all facilities if we are sincerely serving Kṛṣṇa. The government gives all facilities to the government servant. The government gives all facilities to the soldiers. When there is fight, there is scarcity of commodities in the civil life, but there is no scarcity among the soldiers. The first consideration, soldiers. Similarly, those devotees who are fighting against māyā, their facility is first concern. They're fighting, trying to save the people from the onslaught of material energy. That will be explained. What is next verse? *Nalinīkaṇṭha: Tat prayāso na kartavyo yata āyur*-vyayaḥ param, na tathā. Prabhupāda: What is previous verse before that? Nalinīkaṇṭha: Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityāḥ. Prabhupāda: We have discussed this. Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore, next verse? Nalinīkaṇṭha: *"Endeavors merely for sense gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual profit. If one's endeavors are directed toward Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can surely attain the spiritual platform of self*-realization. There is no such benefit from engaging oneself in economic development." *Prabhupāda: Yes, now just see how people are being misguided. Throughout the whole world, the education is for economic development. And here it is condemned that one should not waste his time for so*-called economic development. Now our preaching is here, and who will accept it? They'll call us all crazy fellows. We are thinking they are crazy, they're wasting time for economic development, and they are thinking of us, that "These people are crazy, they are doing nothing, escaping." Escaping, do they not say like that? Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is the position. We are following the footprints of Prahlāda Mahārāja. We are following the instruction. There is no need of economic development. Live nature's life. Just like other animals, they have no question of economic development. They do not think of economic development. But still they are having the material facilities*-eating, sleeping, sex and defense-there is. But there is no endeavor for economic development. So man, being advanced, why he should be less than the animals? His real business is how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not economic development. That is condemned here. Dr. Wolfe will not agree with us. (laughs) All right, read the purport. Nalinīkaṇṭha: "We see materialistic persons busily engaged in economic development all day and all night, trying to increase their material opulence, but even if we suppose that they get some benefit from such endeavors, that does not solve the real problem of their lives. Nor do they know what the real problem of life is. This is due to a lack of spiritual education. Especially in the present age, every man is in darkness, in the bodily conception of life, not knowing anything of the spirit soul and its needs. Misguided by the blind leaders of society, people consider the body to be everything, and they are engaged in trying to keep the body materially comfortable. Such a civilization is condemned because it does not lead humanity toward knowing the real goal of life. People are simply wasting time and the valuable gift of the human form, because a human being who does not cultivate spiritual life but dies like the cats and dogs is degraded in his next life. From human life, such a person is put into the cycle of continuous birth and death. Thus one loses the true benefit of human life, which is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and solve life's problems." Prabhupāda: Now discuss on this point amongst yourselves whether it is rightly said or wrong. If anyone has any objection. Yes? Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, I remember in Atlanta last year when an Indian Ph.D. came to see you and was sitting at your lotus feet, and he spoke about the problems in India, overpopulation and hunger, and then he said to you, "Swamiji, you must always realize the realities." And you said to him, "You don't know the reality." And he did not answer one word. He is now always coming to the temple, although he is working with the monkeys on behavior study. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So anyone has any objection to this statement? Nalinīkaṇṭha: I was thinking that Kṛṣṇa also says that aghāyur indriyārāmo moghaṁ pārtha sa jīvati. This is useless, spending your time in sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, aghāyur indriyārāmo. Nalinīkaṇṭha: "My dear Arjuna, a man who does not follow this prescribed Vedic system of sacrifice certainly leads a life of sin, for a person delighting only in the senses lives in vain." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Nalinīkaṇṭha: "The mammonist philosophy, 'Work very hard and enjoy sense gratification,' is condemned herein by the Lord. Therefore for those who want to enjoy this material world, the above*-mentioned cycle of performing yajñas is absolutely necessary. One who does not follow such regulations is living a very risky life, being condemned more and more. By nature's law, this human form of life is specifically meant for self-realization, in either of the three ways-namely karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga, or bhakti-yoga. There is no necessity of rigidly following the performances of the prescribed yajñas for the transcendentalists who are above vice and virtue; *but those who are engaged in sense gratification require purification by the above*-mentioned cycle of yajña performances. There are different kinds of activities. Those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious are certainly engaged in sensory consciousness; *therefore they need to execute pious work. The yajña system is planned in such a way that sensory conscious persons may satisfy their desires without becoming entangled in the reaction of sense*-gratificatory work. The prosperity of the world depends not on our own efforts but on the background arrangement of the Supreme Lord, directly carried out by the demigods. Therefore, the yajñas are directly aimed at the particular demigod mentioned in the Vedas. Indirectly, it is the practice of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because when one masters the performance of yajñas, one is sure to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. But if by performing yajñas one does not become Kṛṣṇa conscious, such principles are counted as only moral codes. One should not, therefore, limit his progress only to the point of moral codes, but should transcend them, to attain Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Prabhupāda: Next. Nalinīkaṇṭha: Go on reading? Prabhupāda: Yes. Nalinīkaṇṭha: "Therefore, while in material existence [bhavam āśritaḥ], a person fully competent to distinguish wrong from right must endeavor to achieve the highest goal of life as long as the body is stout and strong and is not embarrassed by dwindling." (Purport) "As stated by Prahlāda Mahārāja at the beginning of this chapter, kaumāra ācaret prājñaḥ. The word prājña refers to one who is experienced and who can distinguish right from wrong. Such a person should not waste his energy and valuable human lifetime simply working like a cat or dog to develop his economic condition." Prabhupāda: Modern education, they cannot understand that this repetition of birth, death, old age and disease is a botheration. They do not understand that. Why they accept it? Accept it, they think there is no other way. But if there is a way to stop this, why do they not take it? Hm? What is the value of this education? They cannot distinguish between right and wrong. Nobody likes death, but death is there. Nobody likes to become old, but the old age is there. Why they set aside these big problems and he's proud of scientific advancement of knowledge? What kind of education this is? If they cannot distinguish between right and wrong, then what is the result of this education? Education means one must be able to distinguish between the right and wrong. But they cannot, or even they do know that death is not good, but why they are not trying how to stop death? Where is the advancement? They are very much proud of advancement of science. Where is the advancement? You cannot stop death. You cannot stop old age. You can manufacture advanced medicine, but why don't you stop disease? Take this pill, there will be no more disease. Where is that science? Hm? Nalinīkaṇṭha: They say they're working on it. Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. Bluffing. Gopavṛndapāla: Just like we say that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a gradual process, they say their scientific advancement is also a gradual process. Prabhupāda: Gradual process, but do they think they will be able to stop death? We are confident that we are going back to home, back to Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. But where is their confidence that they will be able to stop death, old age, disease? Dr. Wolfe: The newest fad is now that they say that they're trying, they've established the fact that there is life after death. Prabhupāda: There is. Dr. Wolfe: They try to do this scientifically again. *Prabhupāda: Let them do. Scientifically, there is life after death. That we repeatedly say, that my child's body is dead, it's gone, vanished. I have got a different body. So after death there is life. This is practical. So this Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So similarly, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. This is authoritative statement of God, and practically we see that we get one body after another, but I continue. So where is the objection? So there is life after death. So-called death means annihilation of the body. So if we can stick to that life, that there is no more death, then that is to be sought after. That is intelligence. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, that if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa and you become fit to go back to Him, then no more death. *Dr. Wolfe: These people who are investigating into this, into the problem of life after death, are basing their observations on dying people. And there are three or four authors now, especially one woman who is a specialist in the field of dying. She is convinced, firmly convinced, that there is life after death. Her name is Kubler*-Ross, and she has written several books on the subject. Prabhupāda: Where she is, English? English woman? *Dr. Wolfe: She is American, German*-American. Prabhupāda: Oh, she is here in America. Dr. Wolfe: Yes, she lives here. She has worked in a clinic for many years, and exclusively with dying people. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that.... One has to come to this conclusion undoubtedly. And that is education. Her education is now complete, that he (she) has understood, he (she) is trying to explain scientifically that there is life after death. That is complete education. So everyone should try by his education to establish what is already said in the śāstras. That is a fact. When Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], one gets another body, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre... [Bg. 2.20]. Kṛṣṇa says there cannot be any mistake. So if scientist, philosopher, establishes the statement of Kṛṣṇa by their scientific knowledge, that is real perfect scientific knowledge. And if he wants to defy the statement of Kṛṣṇa, that is māyā. That is not possible. But he's vainlessly trying to do that. But if one by scientific knowledge establishes what Kṛṣṇa says, that is perfection. That is required. We are publishing one book, Dialectic Spiritualism: Vedic Views of Western Philosophy. We are just going to publish one book, Dialectic Spiritualism. Marx's theory is dialectic materialism (laughs). We are going to establish dialectic spiritualism. Go on. Nalinīkaṇṭha: "Every human being has a maximum duration of life of one hundred years, but for one who cannot control his senses, half of those years are completely lost because at night he sleeps twelve hours, being covered by ignorance. Therefore such a person has a lifetime of only fifty years." *Prabhupāda: So sleeping is waste of time. Therefore spiritual advancement means minimizing sleeping. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau **. About the Gosvāmīs' life it is said they conquered over nidrā-āhāra. If you eat extraordinarily, then you will sleep also extraordinarily. If you eat frugally, as much minimum required, then you can conquer over sleep. Eating, sleeping. Sleeping depends on eating. Atyāhāra. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ [NoI 2]. The people in the material world.... Atyāhāra means collecting more than necessity. One, somebody has got millions of dollars; still, he is working hard day and night to increase the bank balance. Why? You have got sufficient money; *now you engage your life for spiritual advancement and take little food. God has given you enough. Why you are wasting your time in collecting money and eating more? That is misuse. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī says, atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ. Āhāra means eating, and āhāra means collecting. So these are against bhakti principles. Collecting more than necessity or eating more than necessity. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ. Prayāsa, things which are not done very easily, I have to endeavor very, very hard, that kind of work should be avoided. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpaḥ, and talking nonsense. No use, you are talking together for hours, what is the use? Prajalpa, it is called prajalpa. And niyamāgrahaḥ, and, without any result, following the regulative principles*-or not following the regulative principles. Niyama-agrahaḥ. Agrahaḥ means not to accept. That is also bad. That is bad, actually. And simply to see the regulative principles without any result, that is also bad. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ [NoI 2]. Laulyam-greediness; *jana-saṅgaś ca*-and associating with unwanted men, jana-saṅgaḥ. We should not try to associate with nondevotees. You waste your time talking something. Ṣaḍbhir bhaktir vinaśyati. By these six principles one is loser in the matter of devotional service. Āhāra required. Just like we are reading this Bhāgavatam; it is proper utilization of time. Similarly, if we take some newspaper, some statement of the politics, and talk and argue and waste time, there is no need of such thing. I think in our institution there is no newspaper. That is one advantage. In the Western countries, newspaper is very popular thing, a huge bundle of newspaper. Although he'll not read, the newspapermen supplies huge bundle of newspaper. And wasting of paper, printing, unnecessarily cutting the trees, for running on the paper mill. This is sinful activity. They are not reading so many nonsense books and newspapers, but paper is required, there is demand. So paper mill requires cutting of the trees unnecessarily. Devotee: They say this will be a big problem in the future of this century, a great shortage of trees. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are creating simply problems. Materialistic way of life means anartha. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says that don't try for all these nonsense things. It is simply killing oneself or lessening the..., or making useless the duration of life. What is this? Bhayam. What does it say? You just read. Simply... *Nalinīkaṇṭha: Puṁso varṣa-śataṁ hy āyus tad*-ardhaṁ cājitātmanaḥ niṣphalaṁ yad asau rātryām [SB 7.6.6]. Prabhupāda: No, before that. *Nalinīkaṇṭha: Tat*-prayāso na kartavyo yata āyur-vyayaḥ param, na tathā vindate kṣemaṁ mukunda... *Prabhupāda: Hm. Āyur*-vyayaḥ. Simply spending the duration of life. Just like you have got some bank balance, and if you spend it for useless purposes. Similarly, we have got some bank balance or duration of life balance. Our death begins.... From the next moment of our birth, death begins. Suppose I'll live hundred years. So I am born, one day passed means one day is reduced from hundred years. The friends come, "How old is your child?" the parents says "He is three years old." That means three years he has died. Ninety-seven years balance. So if we waste our, this balance of life for nothing, that is forbidden. Kevalāyur-vyayaḥ. You utilize the balance for some good purpose. No, we are wasting it. The so-called economic development means we are wasting the balance of our life. This is the philosophy. Read it, na tat, huh? *Nalinīkaṇṭha: Tat*-prayāso? *Prabhupāda: Ah, na tat*-prayāsaḥ kartavyam. This prayāsa, endeavor for economic development, na kartavyam, don't do it. Here is a revolution against this modern civilization. They are simply after economic development, and here it is condemned. It is condemned that this kind of endeavor is simply wasting the balance of our life. If one is intelligent, he sees that "I have got, say, ten thousand dollars in the bank balance, now I must utilize it properly so that it may not be spent," that is intelligence. Similarly, we have begun our death from the date of birth. Daily, every moment we are, our balance is being decreased. So therefore we should be intelligent. So long the balance is there, let me utilize it properly by which I can be really benefited. So the ideal of my benefit is that I'm suffering in this material condition of life, to stop this conditional life, to get freedom life. That is the aim of life. And that freedom can be achieved only by going back to home, back to Godhead. Not any other way. You cannot get the freedom of life here in this material.... That is not possible. Although you are trying for it. Everyone is trying to.... (aside:) Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja can come in. Yes. So without endeavor for this purpose, if we are simply trying to develop our economic condition, that is.... What is that? Āyur-vyayaḥ? What is that word? *Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yata āyur*-vyayaḥ param. Prabhupāda: They are simply killing the duration of life. Then go on. *Nalinīkaṇṭha: Na tathā vindate kṣemaṁ mukunda*-caraṇāmbujam. Prabhupāda: Hm. This is very difficult to understand for the demonic. Prahlāda Mahārāja was instructing among the demons. So for them it was difficult. Still, Prahlāda Mahārāja was trying. The purport is read, this verse? Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes. You say that the problem is that there's a lack of spiritual education in their lives. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the defect always, especially in this age. There is no spiritual education. Hm? Do you think, Dr. Wolfe, there is spiritual education? Is there any in the school, colleges, universities? Hṛdayānanda: He's saying if there's any real spiritual education in the colleges and schools. *Dr. Wolfe: To produce new sense*-gratifiers. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Nalinīkaṇṭha: Ne te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. They don't know. Prabhupāda: Hm? *They do not know what is the aim of life. Therefore there is no spiritual education. They do not know. Read further. You shall always hold classes. Read these books, discuss, try to understand. Then time will be properly utilized. Don't talk useless things. Some engagement. So long as you are engaged in the service of the Deity, that is very good. Otherwise, you should hold class, read these books, discuss amongst them. Then the proper utilization of time. Avyartha*-kālatvam [Cc. Madhya 23.18-19]. Advancement of devotional service means always be alert whether a moment is misused. Because you cannot get back even a moment of your life if you pay millions of dollars. Not possible. 1967, 10th June, 5 o'clock, you had to do something, and if you have missed, then that 5 o'clock, 10th June, 1960, ah, '76, will never come back, even you pay millions of dollars. So if that moment is improperly passed, then what is more loss than that? So avyartha-kālatvam. We should not let even a moment of our life misused. Avyartha-kālatvam. Nāma-gāne sadā ruciḥ. This is advanced life of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prītis tad vasati sthāle [Cc. Madhya 23.18-19]. Attachment for living at places where Kṛṣṇa had His pastimes, like Vṛndāvana, Mathurā, Dvārakā. Prītis tad vasati sthāle. And avyartha-kālatvam [Cc. Madhya 23.18-19]. These are advanced spiritual consciousness. Go on. Hṛdayānanda: "In the tender age of childhood, when everyone is bewildered, one passes ten years. Similarly, in boyhood, engaged in sporting and playing, one passes another ten years. In this way twenty years are wasted. Similarly, in old age, when one is an invalid, unable to perform even material activities, one passes another twenty years wastefully." Prabhupāda: Just like old man like me, eighty years, suppose another twenty years I may live, but I am invalid, I cannot do any solid work. So twenty years in the beginning as child, as young man, in sporting, jumping, twenty years passed. And last twenty years, simply old man's home, invalid home. So forty years gone out of hundred years. Then? Hṛdayānanda: (Purport) "Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one wastes twenty years in childhood and boyhood and another twenty years in old age, when one cannot perform any material activities and is full of anxiety about what is to be done by his sons and grandsons and how one's estate should be protected. Half of these years are spent in sleep. Furthermore, one wastes another thirty years sleeping at night during the rest of his life. Thus seventy out of one hundred years are wasted by a person who does not know the aim of life and how to utilize this human form." *"One whose mind and senses are uncontrolled becomes increasingly attached to family life because of insatiable lusty desires and very strong illusion. In such a madman's life, the remaining years are also wasted because even during those years he cannot engage himself in devotional service." Purport. "This is the account of one hundred years of life. Although in this age a lifetime of one hundred years is generally not possible, even if one has one hundred years, the calculation is that fifty years are wasted in sleeping, twenty years in childhood and boyhood, and twenty years in invalidity (jarā*-vyādhi). This leaves only a few more years, but because of too much attachment to household life, those years are also spent with no purpose, without God consciousness. Therefore, one should be trained to be a perfect brahmacārī in the beginning of life, and then to be perfect in sense control, following the regulative principles, if one becomes a householder. From household life one is ordered to accept vānaprastha life and go to the forest and then accept sannyāsa. That is the perfection of life. From the very beginning of life, those who are ajitendriya, who cannot control their senses, are educated only for sense gratification, as we have seen in the Western countries. Thus the entire duration of a life of even one hundred years is wasted and misused, and at the time of death one transmigrates to another body, which may not be human. At the end of one hundred years, one who has not acted as a human being in a life of tapasya (austerity and penance) must certainly be embodied again in a body like those of cats, dogs and hogs. Therefore this life of lusty desires and sense gratification is extremely risky." Prabhupāda: Now discuss on this point. If anyone has objection. Hṛdayānanda: Objections? Prabhupāda: Yes, Dr. Wolfe. Dr. Wolfe: Do not some physical means come into the keeping the body strong, healthy, so that devotion is possible at all? Because to produce sick people, of course, is not in the Lord's spirit either, I think. Prabhupāda: No. Our aim is not to create sick people. That is not our aim. Dr. Wolfe: Swimming, walking, is still important I think. Prabhupāda: No, we do not say. Neither. Dr. Wolfe: I miss it in the Movement. I think it should not be made a sport, but it should be made, perhaps, a physical must under control. Prabhupāda: No, if you eat more, then you require more exercise to digest unnecessary loading, but if you eat simply, just to keep our body and soul together, you don't require exercise. Dr. Wolfe: Well... Prabhupāda: Little movement is going on, we are walking. But not this severe type of exercise as surfers and fighting with the sea waves for four hours, five hours, ten hours. (devotees laugh) Dr. Wolfe: But Śrīla Prabhupāda, a kṣatriya has to be strong. Prabhupāda: That is a.... Kṣatriya is.... Generally... Dr. Wolfe: And kṣatriyas have to be there. Prabhupāda: This is especially meant for the brāhmaṇas, intelligent. Go on. Hṛdayānanda: *"What person too attached to household life due to being unable to control his senses can liberate himself? An attached householder is bound very strongly by ropes of affection for his family-wife, children and other relatives." Purport: "Prahlāda Mahārāja's first proposal was kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha: [SB 7.6.1] 'One who is sufficiently intelligent should use the human form of body from the very beginning of life-in other words, from the tender age of childhood*-to practice the activities of devotional service, giving up all other engagements.' Dharmān bhāgavatān means the religious principle of reviving our relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. For this purpose Kṛṣṇa personally advises, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] 'Give up all other duties and surrender unto Me.' While in the material world we manufacture so many duties in the name of so many isms, but our actual duty is to free ourselves from the cycle of birth, death, old age and disease. For this purpose, one must first be liberated from material bondage, and especially from household life. Household life is actually a kind of license for a materially attached person by which to enjoy sense gratification under regulative principles. Otherwise there is no need of entering household life. Before entering household life, one should be trained as a brahmacārī, living under the care of the guru, whose place is known as the guru-kula. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam [SB 7.12.1]. From the very beginning, a brahmacārī is trained to sacrifice everything for the benefit of the guru. A brahmacārī is advised to go begging alms door to door, addressing all women as mother, and whatever he collects goes to the benefit of the guru. In this way he learns how to control his senses and sacrifice everything for the guru. When he is fully trained, if he likes he is allowed to marry. Thus he is not an ordinary gṛhastha who has learned only how to satisfy his senses. A trained gṛhastha can gradually give up household life and go to the forest to become increasingly enlightened in spiritual life and at last take sannyāsa. Prahlāda Mahārāja explained to his father that to be freed from all material anxieties one should go to the forest. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam. One should give up his household, which is a place for going further and further down into the darkest regions of material existence. The first advice, therefore, is that one must give up household life (gṛham andha-kūpam). However, if one prefers to remain in the dark well of household life because of uncontrolled senses, he becomes increasingly entangled by ropes of affection for his wife, children, servants, house, money and so on. Such a person cannot attain liberation from material bondage. Therefore children should be taught from the very beginning of life to be first-class brahmacārīs. Then it will be possible for them to give up household life in the future. To return home, back to Godhead, one must be completely free from material attachment. Therefore, bhakti-yoga means vairāgya-vidyā, the art that can help one develop a distaste for material enjoyment. *'By rendering devotional service unto the Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, one immediately acquires causeless knowledge and detachment from the world.' If one engages in devotional service from the beginning of life, he easily attains vairāgya*-vidyā, or asakti, detachment, and becomes jitendriya, the controller of his senses. One who perfectly engages in devotional service is therefore called gosvāmī or svāmī, master of the senses. Unless one is master of the senses, he should not accept the renounced order of life, sannyāsa. A strong inclination for sense enjoyment is the cause of the material body. Without full knowledge one cannot be unattached to material enjoyment, but as long as one is not in that position one is not fit to return home, back to Godhead." Prabhupāda: Now discuss on this point. Hṛdayānanda: One point you're mentioning, Prabhupāda, is a strong inclination for sense enjoyment is the cause of the material body. So it seems that people try to enjoy their senses in order to become happy, but actually they are causing their own suffering. *Prabhupāda: Entanglement. Sat*-saṅga chāḍiyā kāinu asate vilāsa te-kāraṇe lāgila ye mora karma-bandha-phāṅsa. This entanglement.... To repeat birth and death is entanglement. That they do not know. Na te viduḥ. They're obliged to accept this entanglement life. So? Time is up? So read another verse. Hṛdayānanda: Another verse? Prabhupāda: Hm? Nalinīkaṇṭha: I have a question, if it's all right. This is, Prahlāda is instructing his schoolmates, but his schoolmates, I think they would argue, "That's all right, but we are young now; let us enjoy. Then later on in life we shall take up Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Prabhupāda: And unless you learn.... Just like education is given when one is young, and when one is old enough, he cannot take any education. The education, receptive faculty is there when one is young. Otherwise, he cannot take any education. What do you think? *Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, I always thought, I always thought: "Later, later, I will. Later, later." But now I'm sixty*-eight. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, education, everywhere, all over the world, education is given when one is young. That is the time. I think here in America there is adult education? *Hṛdayānanda: But not so much. Some. That's usually for making more money. Someone has a job and he wants further training to get a higher*-paying job, but not so much for knowledge. Prabhupāda: So, what is the next verse? Hṛdayānanda: "Money is so dear that one conceives of money as being sweeter than honey. Therefore, who can give up the desire to accumulate money, especially in household life? Thieves, professional servants, soldiers and merchants try to acquire money even..." Prabhupāda: Here is a very nice example. Soldiers. They know "We are going to give up our life." And what for? "Money." (laughs) They are prepared to give up life for money. Money is so sweeter than honey. (laughs) And thieves, they go at night for burglary. He knows that "If I trespass anyone's house, he can kill me immediately." But still he takes the risk for money. That is all explained here. What is the verse? Hṛdayānanda: "Thieves, professional servants, soldiers and merchants try to acquire money even by risking their very dear lives." Prabhupāda: Merchants also. Formerly, merchants used to go from one country.... And now they also go, now. Facility of transport is easier. Formerly, they had to cross the big ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, waves, and many of them died. Still, for money, they used to go. Hṛdayānanda: Still today, Prabhupāda, many, for example, many big American merchants are being killed in the foreign countries by the Communists and so on. Its very risky still. Many American merchants are being killed in foreign countries. Gopavṛndapāla: Many people also, they are collecting money all throughout this life, but they don't use it for their own sense gratification, yet they leave it for their children and they think in this way: "My children will enjoy, and then all my work had some value." Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. Where he is going he does not know. He's thinking of his grandchildren. This is called māyā. Dr. Wolfe: That is also attachment to the material world, because he wants to be thought of. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are different symptom of material attachment. He does not know who is the rascal coming as my grandchild, but he is making bank balance for them. Dr. Wolfe: Yeah. He wants to be remembered. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Sometimes he has no wife; still, he thinks of grandchild. Gopavṛndapāla: They say that is the goal of life, if I can be remembered by others after I leave. Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter where he is going. That is māyā. Dr. Wolfe: I think, Prabhupāda, here the idea comes into "My children, my grandchildren" as if they were his. *Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. This is in Sanskrit, or, you know, ahaṁ mameti. Aham means I, and mama means mine. This is the illusion. Ato gṛha*-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. Gradually.... First of all, there is attraction, male and female, puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etam. The whole material world existing on sex attachment. Puṁsaḥ means male, and striyā means female. Their attachment. Even before marriage or unity, the attachment is there. Puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etaṁ tayor mithaḥ. And when they actually unite, hṛdaya-granthim āhuḥ, the hard knot in the heart, hard knot. Then after unity.... If, suppose one is married or united, then they want apartment, gṛha, then field. Formerly they used to earn money by producing food from the field. There was no factory. So ato gṛha-kṣetra, then children, then friends, then accumulation of money, ato gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittaiḥ [SB 5.5.8]. With all these things, the conception of "I" and "mine" increases, and he becomes entangled. *Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, is it not so that so*-called marital love and parental love is possessive? *Prabhupāda: You call it any love, the real idea is how to unite man and woman, that's all. That is the idea. Real, basic principle is how to unite a man and woman. It goes on as friend or husband and wife or this or that. The real purpose is they want to unite. And that unity is for sex. And then both of them become entangled. Gṛha*-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair janasya moho 'yam [SB 5.5.8]. This is moha, illusion. What is that explanation? Hṛdayānanda: Purport: "How money can be dearer than life is indicated in this verse. Thieves may enter the house of a rich man to steal money at the risk of their lives. Because of trespassing they may be killed by guns or attacked by watchdogs, but still they try to commit burglary. Why do they risk their lives? Only to get some money. Similarly, a professional soldier is recruited into the army, and he accepts such service, with the risk of dying on the battlefield, only for the sake of money. In the same way, merchants go from one country to another on boats at the risk of their lives, or they dive into the water... Prabhupāda: In 1942 I have seen when war was going on, so, these Britishers wanted soldiers, so they created artificial famine. The people became in need of money, so they enrolled them as soldiers. I have seen it. There was no other way to get money to get commodities at higher price. Artificial famine. There was no food grains available, but black market it is available. Black market means more price, but they had no money. So to get this money, they enrolled as soldiers. This was Mr. Churchill's policy. Rādhāvallabha: That's going on now in America. Previously they had to force men to join the Army because they had such a shortage. Now, because there are so few jobs, it is harder to get into the Army. Even volunteers, there are so many volunteers just to get a job that they have too many practically. Prabhupāda: Even in Army there is no service? They don't want? Rādhāvallabha: Now they want because they can't get a job. Hṛdayānanda: More selective. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hṛdayānanda: But the Army is now more selective who they will accept. Rādhāvallabha: Previously they had to force thousands; now they are practically having to turn men away because they are joining the Army just get some money. Hari-śauri: I used to have a friend that was in the Merchant Navy. He was working on oil tankers. So he would only go on the runs to Vietnam. The oil tankers were always in danger of being blown up, so they had to pay them twice as much as any other job just to simply go to Vietnam, and then he would get a huge bonus as well. So he would only work on those jobs. Prabhupāda: So the modern civilization, there is no program for peaceful, happy life. Things are becoming more and more problematic. Everywhere. Here our Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is asking everyone to go to his New Vrindaban. There is no problem. We have seen yesterday pictures of our New Vrindaban. There is no problem. Practical. If you can see the picture, you'll see that they have no problem. Is there any problem? Rādhāvallabha: Sometimes there is too much milk. Prabhupāda: (laughter) Huh? That he can send to us. Milk is so nice that it cannot be wasted, even a drop. First of all you get milk, that is the Indian system. So there is a big milk pan, and as soon as the milk is drawn it is put into the pan. The pan is in the fire. So as much as you like, drink milk, children, elderly persons. Then at night, when there is no demand for milk, it is converted into yogurt, not wasted. Whatever balance milk is there is converted into yogurt. Then in daytime also you take yogurt, as much as you like. If it is not all consumed, then it is stored in a pot. Then when that pot is enough stored, then you churn it. Churn it, and you get butter and Buttermilk. So again you take buttermilk with cāpāṭi and everything, not a single drop is lost. Then the butter, you melt it, convert into ghee and store it, it will stay for years. So not a drop of milk can be wasted. And this butter, because in the village they are eating so much milk products, they do not require butter or ghee. Maybe little, so that is stored. They go to the city. The city men they require, especially. Ghee is very important thing in the city. So they purchase. So in exchange of that money, whatever they want, they purchase in the city and come back. But the simply maintaining the cows, their economic problem is solved. Simply maintaining the cows. And to maintain cow there is no difficulty. The boys.... Just like Kṛṣṇa, as boy, was taking the cows, the calves, in the fields. They are grazing here and there, and coming back they're giving milk. Only one attendant required to take them into the pasturing ground and bring them back home. You don't require to give them food even. Simply take care, they give milk, and with milk you make so many preparations. Yes? Dr. Wolfe: Last year, I drove with Svarūpa Dāmodara through Texas on the way to Atlanta, and I thought so much.... We watched those thousands and thousands of cattle, only beef cattle, only for slaughtering, not one milk cow anymore. And I was so acutely aware of what I had learned from you. Prabhupāda: They do not know the civilized way of life. They are still barbars, called? Devotees: Barbarians. Prabhupāda: Barbians, ah, barbarians. In the jungle, the barbarians, they do not know how to produce food, how to utilize milk. They can kill animals. That is also not like this, by machine you kill thousands of cows. They did not know this. For their simple eating they might have killed some animals, not particularly cow. Perhaps they were not killing cows because they were getting milk. Other, nonimportant animals. But what is this civilization? I learned that in South Africa, before killing the cows, they take the last drop of milk, and then it is sent to the slaughterhouse. They are so expert that if there is still little milk, take it before her death. Is that civilization, that you are taking milk...? So Vedic civilization is as you are drinking milk from the cow, she's your mother. Actually she's mother. But what is this civilization, killing mother? Hm? Is that civilization? Take from mother whatever she can deliver up to the last drop of milk, and then kill her. Advanced civilization, scientific. Killing scientifically. This is not civilization. Hari-śauri: And just to emphasize it, they deliberately moved the Indian community next to the slaughterhouse. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Because they know they don't like cow killing. Devotee: Where? Hari-śauri: In South Africa. Prabhupāda: The Indian quarters near their slaughterhouse, and the animals screaming like anything whole night, and they have to hear it. The real purpose is that the Indians may go out. Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, who does that? Prabhupāda: In South Africa. Dr. Wolfe: The government? Devotee: Yes. Dr. Wolfe: It's barbarian. Prabhupāda: Hm. I was in South Africa in, what is that city? Hṛdayānanda: Johannesburg. Prabhupāda: Johannesburg. From the downtown, the Indian quarters about ten miles or fifteen miles away. Indian.... African, black quarters, they are not allowed even to enter the city. They require a pass. If any black man enters the city without that passport, he will immediately be taken to police. The bus for the black man is different from the white man. I think Indians also they have got separate bus. But the bus in which the white men travel, the Indians and the black men are not allowed. Gandhi tried to adjust this injustice, but he failed. Then with determination he went to India, that "I must drive away the Englishmen." These South African white men, mostly they are Englishmen and Dutchmen. Originally, they were Englishmen and Dutchmen. Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, the strange thing is that the fiercest racists in South Africa are the Boers, the Afrikaners... Prabhupāda: That is Englishmen, Dutchmen, Dutchmen. Dr. Wolfe: ...who were put down by the British before, and now they are the worst oppressors themselves. Prabhupāda: These Dutchmen, Englishmen and Frenchmen were the pioneers of colonization. Spaniards also, Spanish. In America mostly the Englishmen came? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. English and French. Prabhupāda: French. Hṛdayānanda: Mostly English. Prabhupāda: The Germans were not for colonization. Dr. Wolfe: They were before World War I. They lost their colonies at the end of World War I. They lost Cameroon and Togo and East Africa. That is where Nairobi is now; Nairobi was German before. Hṛdayānanda: Not so many colonies like the others. Dr. Wolfe: Hm, they had quite a few, quite a few. Prabhupāda: The Englishmen they have lost their colonies, all. Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Even now England they can no longer control. Prabhupāda: Hm? (laughs) Hṛdayānanda: They can no longer control England. They are having fights between the labor and management. They cannot control it. Prabhupāda: Why? What is the difficulty? Hari-śauri: Communists. Hṛdayānanda: No, between the laborers and the management. They are having great, always strikes, and the British industry is becoming crippled. Prabhupāda: And there is another problem, Irish problem. The Irish men, they are dropping bombs in London, in daytime. Creating always disturbance. Gopavṛndapāla: I was in London just recently, and in the airport, where we distribute books, you cannot put your bag of books down because the police will come, hold you, and say, "You have a bomb in your bag." You must always keep it on your shoulder. And there are signs about every fifty feet, saying "Do not leave luggage unattended" because they are thinking anything which is unattended is a possible bomb. Prabhupāda: London airport is very congested. Gopavṛndapāla: Yes, very. Prabhupāda: Very, very congested. Always thousands and thousands of men. If there is any such bomb explosion.... Life is becoming more and more insecure. The advancement of civilization is no relief for these other problems. Hṛdayānanda: Prahlāda Mahārāja has said that their solution is bringing more problem. Prabhupāda: Yes. In order to solve one problem, more problems. Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, am I right when I say the only solution is a change of consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real solution. So we shall now go? Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hari-śauri: Someone can distribute that. Can someone bring those books? (end) *Magazine Interview-*-June 10, 1976, Los Angeles *Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda has a very busy schedule coming up in the next month and a half. He's going to Detroit, Toronto, Pittsburgh, and our farm in that area, then Washington, D.C., New York, London, Paris, Rome, Tehran, and back to Bombay, all within about forty*-five days. Prabhupāda: Athens, Athens, Athens. Rāmeśvara: Athens? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Oh. The new center in Athens.... It opened so fast, it's... Interviewer: How long will you spend at each stop? Rāmeśvara: About a week. Interviewer: It's, I imagine, an exciting time. Rāmeśvara: When Prabhupāda is there, for us it's the most, it's like our life has come back. Guest: I was at the airport when he came in, and it was really quite joyous. There were about seven hundred devotees, I would say. The place was just vibrant. Hari-śauri: They diverted all the other passengers somewhere else because they couldn't get into the room, there were so many devotees. Rāmeśvara: The knowledge that Śrīla Prabhupāda is giving us is actually giving us our real reason to be alive. Most of us didn't know what the goal of life was. We had some ideas about this profession or that, but most of us had no real, you know, aim in life. And this philosophy and this knowledge has now given us proper direction. It's cleared up a lot of bad qualities that we may have had. Interviewer: Is this your last trip to America? Rāmeśvara: He's asking if this is your last visit. Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Interviewer: You feel that you can continue to make those serious travels? Prabhupāda: Well, I began my traveling in foreign countries at very ripe old age, seventy years. Ten years I'm traveling. This is the fifteenth tour all over the world. Interviewer: Are you surprised to see the popularity of your teachings in the last few years? Prabhupāda: I think it is becoming popular. Rāmeśvara: He was asking if you are surprised that it is being, that your books are selling so much and that so many devotees are coming. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Neither anybody has written so many books within ten years. Guest: How many? *Prabhupāda: Now it is fifty*-four. Bring books. Rāmeśvara: I've shown him the books already. The universities and the scholars are also very appreciative. At least ninety percent of the universities in America have already ordered these books. Prabhupāda: In India, also. Guest: They are sold throughout the world. Rāmeśvara: Yes, and they're published in many different languages. French, Dutch, Swedish, German, Italian, Indian languages. Spanish, very big. Prabhupāda: Get this light. Interviewer: Where did you get these paintings? Prabhupāda: Paintings? Our students did. Rāmeśvara: Our art studios are here in Los Angeles. Interviewer: What happens when that inevitable time comes when a successor is needed? Rāmeśvara: He is asking about the future, who will guide the movement in the future. Prabhupāda: They will guide. I am training them. Interviewer: Will there be one spiritual leader, though? Prabhupāda: No, I am training GBC, eighteen all over the world. Rāmeśvara: His personal secretaries. Interviewer: I see. Rāmeśvara: To see that the original teachings that Prabhupāda has given are not in any way changed. Interviewer: Well, nothing more? Then ah, thank you, and I wish you well in your travels. Rāmeśvara: We have given him many books to read and magazines, so he's already preparing the article from that material we have given him. Prabhupāda: For a common man it is little difficult, but it is very easy. We are talking of the spiritual platform, but common man does not understand what is spiritual, although it is very easy. My body, your body, is moving on account of spiritual spark. That's a fact; everyone can see. As soon as the spiritual spark, soul, is off, the body, it is simply lump of matter. That is a fact; everyone can see. But still they are not serious to understand what is that spiritual spark. There is no education. Mostly they are thinking there is no spiritual spark, the body is moving.... How it is moving? What is their explanation? Rāmeśvara: Chemical combination and reaction. Prabhupāda: But that, they cannot do it. They cannot make any dull matter moving by chemical combination. Although they cannot do it, still they talk of it. That is another foolishness. We say that you.... Egg, everyone can see some white matter, some yellow matter, and some covering, plasticlike. So a chemical, mostly chemicals are white. So combine the chemicals and make white and cover it with plastic and give it to the incubator. Why the chicken is not coming? Hm? And why they talk nonsense that it is a chemical combination? They cannot experiment it, neither they can do it, and still they'll talk nonsense. What do you think? Interviewer: What do I think? Prabhupāda: Yes, this nonsense talking that chemical combination, there is life. Why don't you do it? Interviewer: I think it's a continuing to search for whatever... Prabhupāda: That any nonsense can say, that "I am continuing," but where is the result? When the result is expected? Interviewer: I'm sorry, I can't understand. Prabhupāda: When the result will be out! *Rāmeśvara: He's saying they can always pass it off by saying, "We're continuing to research. One day in the future." But when will that day come? It is like, Prabhupāda sometimes calls it a post*-dated check. Interviewer: Isn't that, each individual makes that determination when that day has come? Rāmeśvara: No. He means in terms of the scientists discovering how to make, create life, or how to put life back into a dead body. They say that it is chemical reaction. Therefore one day they should be able to discover how to do it if it's simply chemicals. So when will that day come? Prabhupāda's point is that it's not chemicals, but that there's actually a spiritual element. And because they don't accept that there's a spiritual element, they're not searching for it. They're simply studying the chemicals. So in that way they're not, they'll never reach the right conclusion about what is life, what makes this body move, what is death. Because they're missing the essential point, the spiritual element. So his question was What do you think about it? Interviewer: Ah, my spiritualness is strongly absent from my own person. I... Prabhupāda: How? Why do you say absent? You are talking. Interviewer: Well, in the sense that I, I look beyond who I am now, I don't look very far. At this point in my life, I haven't made the decision that I need to look. Prabhupāda: You may decision or not decision, there are two things. Interviewer: I'm sorry... Prabhupāda: There are two things. One is your body and the other, the living force which is moving your body. There is no question of decision; it is already decided. There are two things. But our point is that two things are there, the material body and the moving force. So what we are speaking, we are speaking of the living force, moving force, and people in general, they're interested with this body. Therefore our subject matter is little difficult for such common man. We are speaking simply on the subject matter of that living force, what is that living force. Our beginning is from that point, that body is different from the living force. And general people, they do not understand. Although they feel that there is living force something, they say it is chemical combination and so on, so on. But that is not the fact. It is a different commodity, material, or it is not material, spiritual identity which is different from this combination of matter, this body. So it requires little training to understand. Although it is very simple fact, but their brain is very dull, material. They see daily, but still, they propose so many things which is impractical. Just like you said that it is chemical composition and they're trying to do it in future. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda often says that no one can be happy without knowledge. It's not possible to be fully happy without knowledge. People suffer due to lack of knowledge. So if this knowledge about this living force is not taught to the people, then they'll continue to suffer and be in anxiety, suffer diseases, fight among themselves, quarrel. There'll always be some misery as long as there is this general lack of knowledge about the spiritual element, or the living force. So in that sense we feel a great compassion and a great, great responsibility to educate as many people as possible about the spiritual science of the soul and about Kṛṣṇa, or God. That's the purpose of our mission, to relieve people from their miseries and make them truly happy. Interviewer: If they're interested. Prabhupāda: Interested or not interested. Child is not interested for education. But it is the duty of the father to make him educated, sometimes punish him. So a child may be foolish, but how the parents can be foolish? It is not that because the human society is not interested, this should be stopped. No. Interviewer: How can you make them interested if they're not? Prabhupāda: Well, how these boys are becoming interested? They are young men, they have got so many ideas of bodily enjoyment, but how they have become interested? Thousands. They are all young men. How they have become interested? And you cannot withdraw them from this interest. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda has taught us how to experience spiritual pleasure or spiritual happiness by chanting, taking the food that we, that you and I just took, and through this philosophy. There is genuine transcendental bliss. So when one experiences that pleasure, then other pleasures appear to be insignificant in comparison. So even though someone may not be interested now, if we can give him a chance to experience this higher pleasure, then it's natural he'll become interested. That's the idea. Interviewer: Sure. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 10, 1976, Los Angeles (in car) Prabhupāda: That reporter wanted to talk more? *Rāmeśvara: Yes. He spoke with me for another one hour, very interested. And he writes for many different magazines also, not just one magazine. He's called "free*-lance writer." Prabhupāda: [break] ...our philosophy. Rāmeśvara: He understands our philosophy, but he is not ready to surrender. He very much appreciated the dioramas that Bharadvāja is working on. We took him over to see them. Every one of the newspapermen was anxious to get a story on the opening of the museum. Hṛdayānanda: Very prestigious, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Museum." Prabhupāda: In everywhere, every center. Hṛdayānanda: Museum, library... Rāmeśvara: Then, eventually, Bharadvāja wants to have big museum in the city, not necessarily in our building, because the building may not have enough space. Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think it will be more prestigious if we use the art paintings to be displayed in museums or art galleries. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rāmeśvara: That way, wealthy, upper*-class people will get a chance to appreciate. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...said that beef*-eating is the cause of cancer. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Which is correct? Hṛdayānanda: Too much addicted. (Prabhupāda laughs) Rādhāvallabha: This cancer problem seems to be increasing. Previously only old.... We would only hear of old people getting it. Now young people are getting it also. It is becoming very common. Hṛdayānanda: Young people also. Rādhāvallabha: Yes, two, one girl here got it. Another girl was suspected of having it. Prabhupāda: What is the symptom? Rādhāvallabha: Generally, with women, they get some lump... Rāmeśvara: Pain, the symptom is lump and great pain. Cancer is said to be some bacteria or virus cells that are inside the body, eating the body organs. Rādhāvallabha: The cells increase, the cancer cells increase, and they take the place of the regular bodily cells, but they themselves are worthless. Rāmeśvara: And the only idea they have for curing cancer is to cut out the diseased area from the body, remove that part of the body. *Devotee: Kill it with X*-ray. Rādhāvallabha: Yeah. They also try to bombard it with radiation, and that has its very bad effects. Their hair falls out. They get burns, sick. Hṛdayānanda: Miserable condition. Rādhāvallabha: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Many modern sociologists, they are predicting that in twenty or thirty years the population will increase so much on this planet that the cities will be very, very crowded, and there will be many, many new problems: no room for so many cars and not enough food, not enough housing. They predict very, very.... And then the result will be rioting. So many people will not have enough food and good places to live that they will... Prabhupāda: So why don't you go back to home, back to Godhead? (laughs) We are trying to save them. Why you are rotting in this problem? (out of car) That reporter? Rāmeśvara: "No obstacle." Hari-śauri: "Death is not a problem." Prabhupāda: They are predicting so many problems, and still the rascals will say there is no problem. Padaṁ yad vipadām. The material world is so made that in every step there is problems. [break] ...na teṣām. Rāmeśvara: They say that as the population increases in the cities, there must be rioting and fighting. There will be so many people without the minimum necessities of life, so much exploitation of the rich upper class. Prabhupāda: Why not go to New Vrindaban? That they will not do. Rāmeśvara: There is no training how to live in New Vrindaban. They are educated only to live in the cities and work like mūḍhas. Even now.... One of the biggest problems that they're predicting is unemployment. They cannot... Prabhupāda: Yes. In America it has begun, what to speak of other countries. Hṛdayānanda: Worse in other countries. Rāmeśvara: Today there are many articles in the papers that college students graduate and cannot find any jobs, so their degree is useless. Prabhupāda: This.... This was the problem in India, and now it is also in America. [break] Mahendra: Graduating with Ph.D.'s and then becoming truck drivers. Candanācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda said years ago that our colleges are producing beggars. They get a degree and then they beg. Prabhupāda: Śūdras and beggar. Rādhāvallabha: [break] ...reporter that he was liberated. Later on, he was asking whether you were joking. (laughter) *Duryodhana*-guru: [break] It says in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. So this refers to someone who has attained Brahman realization, that he must fall down because he does not take shelter at Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet. Does this also refer to someone who has attained paramātmā realization? Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless one reaches Vaikuṇṭha planet, nobody is safe. [break] Rāmeśvara: ...to the reporter? Bharadvāja: What did he say? Rāmeśvara: He said that's all right, because the fish are happy. Prabhupāda: And why did you not say that "I'll eat you"? (laughter) Rāmeśvara: We told him it would take him one million years to get human birth again, and he was shocked. Prabhupāda: Yes, it's a fact. Rāmeśvara: [break] ...say that when the unemployment problem becomes very great, it will cause the government to start wars with other countries just to engage the men. Prabhupāda: Where the government will get money? Mahendra: They'll print it. [break] *Jagannātha*-sūta: ...cutting off the head when you have a headache. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...in the age of Kali*-yuga, difficulties will increase. That's a fact. Very, very difficult. We have passed only five thousand years, and there is balance of 427,000, hundreds of years, thousands. [break] ...only go back to home, back to Godhead. [break] ...has therefore advised that "Don't be engaged in all this nonsense activities, economic development. Simply become Kṛṣṇa conscious." [break] ...promises that "For such persons who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I'll take charge for their maintenance directly." Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham [Bg. 9.22]. [break] ...envious of one another. They see that "These people, they do not do anything, and living so comfortably." Rāmeśvara: They say that in the future, because of the overpopulation problem, there will not be sufficient foodstuffs, so they will have to develop eating simply by taking pills. Prabhupāda: Scientists will do that, but we shall take milk preparations. Hari-śauri: We will drink milk, and they can drink their urine. Candanācārya: ...scientist, Buckminster Fuller, who doesn't agree with the other scientists. He says that with proper organization the entire population of the planet could live in California. Rāmeśvara: (indistinct) [break] Candanācārya: ...density that we already have some population like in China and things like that. Prabhupāda: In Los Angeles we find so many houses: "Now Renting." [break] Rādhāvallabha: They told us in school that in India there are so many people, practically you cannot even move. But when we go to India we see there is miles and miles of empty land, simply a few cities where it's crowded. Prabhupāda: Cities are crowded. Village? Very nice. [break] Nalinīkaṇṭha: ...there were so many people just in India that Mahārāja Ugrasena had ten quadrillion bodyguards alone. Prabhupāda: At that time the India was whole planet. [break] Rādhāvallabha: ...the body moves because of the presence of the soul. The scientists say that the body moves due to electronic impulses from the brain that cause the muscles to contract. Prabhupāda: Rascal, why don't you produce it? Why you talk nonsense? Rādhāvallabha: I can't produce. It has happened by evolution over many millions of years. I don't have that long. Prabhupāda: So why you are dreaming? Do it practically. Rādhāvallabha: We are not saying that we can do it. We are just explaining it. Prabhupāda: Who cares for your explanation? Rādhāvallabha: We have so many followers. Candanācārya: One day we will do it. Prabhupāda: That's it. Rāmeśvara: There is one famous movie or a book called Frankenstein, and in that... Candanācārya: [break] ...correction house, they go and they spend their term, and they come out and they again commit a crime. *Prabhupāda: Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Again and again chewing the chewed. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Candanācārya: Prisoners, they spend so much of their life in the prisonhouse that when they are given an opportunity to leave, they refuse. (Prabhupāda laughs) They say, "No, I'm so accustomed to stay here, I'd rather just stay in prison." So they beg the governor to let them stay in prison. Prabhupāda: If he comes out, he faces unemployment. Better to remain here. [break] Jagadīśa: ...how to prolong life and stop death. So Dr. Frog has a recent theory that (Prabhupāda laughs) if a person fasts on every third day, he can prolong his life, twice as long. They are experimenting with rats on this basis. [break] Rāmeśvara: And we take our knowledge from Śrīla Vyāsadeva. Trivikrama: And here also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the ocean, they're surfing, extreme cold. Rādhāvallabha: It's so cold that they sit on the water and they just tremble. Prabhupāda: That is also another punishment, voluntary. Hari-śauri: Everybody's doing tapasya, but for their own cause. *Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. Ugra*-karma, ferocious activities. [break] Rādhāvallabha: ...people also do that. They wake up at two or three in the morning and drive and stand in the water for eight or ten hours, just freezing, waiting to catch a fish. Candanācārya: For sport. Rādhāvallabha: Just for fun, not even for eating. Candanācārya: There are some fishermen that spend six months out of the year far out at sea just fishing. They sleep only three or four hours a day. They don't see any other people. They just live together on a big boat. *Bharadvāja: So the only way to beat that cycle is ajñāta*-sukṛti? Prabhupāda: Why ajñāta? Why not jñāta? You rascal, you take Kṛṣṇa conscious. Why ajñāta? Be informed. This is the only way. Bharadvāja: He can take it directly without having performed some pious activities? Prabhupāda: He'll take.... No, if he accepts, that is pious. And Kṛṣṇa comes personally to canvass, "You rascal, take this and be happy." But he'll not do. Although it takes millions of years to come to that understanding, Kṛṣṇa personally comes: "You take it. I assure you, I shall give you all protection," but they'll not take it. Bharadvāja: To everyone? *Prabhupāda: Yes. When He comes here, He comes for everyone. When He teaches Bhagavad*-gītā, is it for Arjuna? Everyone. [break] ...play is not distinct in the record. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Not distinct enough? I can make it louder. Prabhupāda: Harer nāma, harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Indian (devotee?): Prabhupāda, do you want me to send it to you? Prabhupāda: Eh? You have translated? Indian: Yes, I have here the first chapter. Prabhupāda: Oh, you go on reading. Indian: Adhunika... Hṛdayānanda: (trying to read something in Bengali) ...jijñāsa... (pause) ...gayi.... haya hi.... mamana.... mana.... gagane... Prabhupāda: Oh, this is.... (says something in joking disgust, devotees laugh loudly). Jayādvaita: I can read like that too. (more laughter) Prabhupāda: [break] ...written these two pages? Indian: About three hours. Prabhupāda: That's nice. [break] Rāmeśvara: ...that to do the book Scientific Basis would take two weeks. Prabhupāda: Hm? Then let him come. [break] ...so many items, so many books can be translated into English. (Prabhupāda getting into car) Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! (end) *Room Conversation-*-June 10, 1976, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: This is one (indistinct). Bharadvāja: No, just a sample. The total height is forty inches. Kṛṣṇa is twenty and Kāliya is another twenty inches. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Bharadvāja: So I think we could try casting it in bronze. Prabhupāda: Bronze. Bronze will not be polished? *Bharadvāja: It is the American or the Western version of the aṣṭa*-dhātu. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is all right. *Bharadvāja: Or, not aṣṭa*-dhātu, but bell metal. Prabhupāda: It will be polished? Bharadvāja: Yes, you can polish very nicely. Kīrtanānanda: I've never seen bronze polished. Bharadvāja: It depends on the quality, grade. Generally they don't use a very high percentage of brass. Kīrtanānanda: You think it's better than brass? Bharadvāja: It's a little cheaper. Prabhupāda: Bronze is very good. Kīrtanānanda: I've never seen it highly polished. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the problem. Why not make brass? Bharadvāja: Out of brass? Bronze is harder. Bronze is harder. Prabhupāda: No, why harder? You can make softer. Metal... Kīrtanānanda: Gold is softer still. It will be much more brilliant in brass than bronze. Bharadvāja: Generally... *Prabhupāda: Brass, just like our Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deities in Māyāpura, how dazzling. Here also, in Boston. Bharadvāja: I think Kṛṣṇa is German silver. Prabhupāda: No. Maybe. Bharadvāja: Not so much brass casting going on in this country, mostly bronze casting. Prabhupāda: Bronze, but it will not be polished. We want polished. Bharadvāja: I have to investigate it. Prabhupāda: Bright face. *Hari-śauri: There's a boy that was in New York who cast some brass Gaura*-Nitāi Deities in Australia. They came out very nice. You could talk to him. He might give you some good information. His name is Bhāskara. Prabhupāda: Brass is best, next to gold or silver. *Bharadvāja: But I think the other Deities we shall just do in concrete, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and Lalitā, Viśākhā. Either concrete or hard plaster. Prabhupāda: Hm? Bharadvāja: Hard plaster, tempered plaster, hydrostone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bharadvāja: They will pay for the casting in Fiji? Prabhupāda: Hm? Bharadvāja: The Indians in Fiji will pay for the casting if we decide to cast in brass here? Prabhupāda: Anyone will pay. (laughs) Kṛṣṇa will pay. What will be the cost, let me know. It will be paid by somebody. Bharadvāja: I will have to investigate. Kīrtanānanda: You will have it cast or you will cast it? Bharadvāja: We'll have it cast here. Actually, one boy is working with me now from Hawaii... Prabhupāda: But one thing, you can send one copy of this to Vṛndāvana to take casting cost there. They're also doing. Bharadvāja: Estimate. Perhaps they'll be able to do it cheaper in India. Prabhupāda: Hm? Bharadvāja: They'll definitely be able to do it cheaper in India. Prabhupāda: Then if they can do cheaper, why not cast there? Bharadvāja: The transport. Prabhupāda: Transport is the same. You have to transport from here, they will have to transport from... *Bharadvāja: Hm. Nanda*-kiśora, or someone else? Prabhupāda: You send to Akṣayānanda. (long pause) Prahlāda Mahārāja said there is no necessity for endeavoring for economic development. Very difficult to understand this philosophy. Hari-śauri: People don't know how they'll survive if they don't get money. Prabhupāda: No. We are actual examples. We are not after economic development, but we are after following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. Nalinīkaṇṭha: People criticize us sometimes because they always see... Prabhupāda: No, what do we care for them? We go on with our own business. Bharadvāja: Actually, they are all envious because they see that without working we are getting such nice facility. Prabhupāda: No, we are working, but working for Kṛṣṇa. Bharadvāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is the difference. Rādhāvallabha: I went to the bank the other day to take out some money for the Press, and I took out a few thousand dollars. I had to take it in small bills, and there were karmīs there, and they were yelling, "They should be thrown out of town!" Prabhupāda: They said? Rādhāvallabha: Yes, and they were very angry because they don't make that much money in over two months. Prabhupāda: The Communists also, they are envious of these capitalists. Hari-śauri: The rich. "Make the rich pay," that's their slogan. Rādhāvallabha: But the leaders of the Communists are rich. Prabhupāda: Hm? Rādhāvallabha: The leaders of the Communists are all rich, and the people don't notice. Hari-śauri: Andha, blind. Prabhupāda: Russia, that, what is that, Communist leader? Devotees: Nikolien? Lenin? Breshnev? Kruschev? *Prabhupāda: Kruschev. Kruschev. He was making money, therefore he was driven out. His son*-in-law, his sons were being employed, neopolism, what is called? Kīrtanānanda: Nepotism. Prabhupāda: Nepotism. That is human nature. Hari-śauri: They said he was becoming too friendly with the West, getting too many Western ideas. Prabhupāda: Who? Hari-śauri: Kruschev. So they kicked him out. (knock at the door) Prabhupāda: Yes? Rādhāvallabha: Answer the door. Hari-śauri: In England, their whole difficulty with the labor.... (several people talk at once, door is open, kīrtana going on) Prabhupāda: Let him in. Rādhāvallabha: It's Govinda dāsī. Tell her to come in. Hari-śauri: But the union problem they have in England, that's why the whole country now is in disruption because the labor is always on strike. They did a survey, and they found out that all the major union leaders are Communists. Prabhupāda: And they're making money. Hari-śauri: When I was there I remember every month there would be a major strike in the car industry, in the shipping industry, all the major industries there was always a major strike every.... And it would completely devastate the economy. Hṛdayānanda: The foreign businesses no longer have confidence in England, because if they make some order maybe it will not be fulfilled. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hṛdayānanda: The foreign business no longer has confidence. I heard that England had sold military weapons to Israel, and when Israel was fighting the war they called England, "Immediately send replacements for the weapons." "No, I'm sorry, we are on strike, there's no..., we cannot send replacements." So in this way there is no longer confidence in England for business, international business. Rādhāvallabha: Now in South America it has been fashionable.... There are many, many wealthy businessmen living there. So terrorists will kidnap a businessman, and then send a letter to the company in the United States or in that country, stating that "If you do not give us such and such million dollars, we will kill him." So in this way the terrorists are getting millions of dollars by kidnapping big men. Hṛdayānanda: Businessmen. Rādhāvallabha: It's happening quite often in South America now. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's going on everywhere. There was a, John Paul Getty's nephew in Italy, he was taken by kidnappers, and they petitioned Getty, "Give us so many millions of dollars, otherwise we'll kill your nephew." So he refused. So after a long, long time the nephew was returned somehow or other, and one of the times when they demanded a ransom, they chopped off his right ear and put it in an envelope and sent it through the post: "This is proof that we have your nephew, now give us money." And still he refused. And then eventually the boy was returned minus his ear. Hṛdayānanda: And you were saying, Prabhupāda, that even when they have so much money they want more. This man is one of the richest men in the world, and for his own family member he would not pay some money to save him. Prabhupāda: Who was that man? Hari-śauri: Getty. He just died. Hṛdayānanda: Just a few days ago he died. Rādhāvallabha: In England. One of the richest men in the world. Hṛdayānanda: Two of the richest Americans have just died. Rādhāvallabha: Howard Hughes. Howard Hughes was considered the richest man in the country, and they found him dying in a hotel room of malnutrition. Hṛdayānanda: He had become so afraid of death that he would wear a mask over his face to avoid germs, and he would be changing his clothes constantly, and he was living terrified of dying and losing his money. So in this way, in his last several years he became mad, just with the fear that he was going to die. [break] Prabhupāda: What is your next publication? Hṛdayānanda: Mine? Prabhupāda: Portuguese and Spanish? *Hṛdayānanda: In a few days we will be sending to the printer a complete Portuguese Bhagavad*-gītā and Spanish Kṛṣṇa book. I think within one week perhaps we will, in one or two weeks, we will send both to the printer. Prabhupāda: Where is the editorial department? Hṛdayānanda: Here. That's why I'm here. For Spanish and also Portuguese. I just received information that in Caracas they were selling every day one thousand Bhāgavatams. Devotees: Wow! Prabhupāda: What is the price? Hṛdayānanda: Each book about two and a half dollars. Prabhupāda: That means about three thousand dollars daily? Rādhāvallabha: That's very big. Hṛdayānanda: And they have been defeated by Mexico. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Mexico is selling more? *Hṛdayānanda: Yes. This month, last month in Mexico they sent in for a month, $23,000 for a month. Now the, all of South America combined this month has almost defeated Rādhā*-Dāmodara. (Prabhupāda laughs) Almost on the same level now, South America. Prabhupāda: This competition must go on. (laughter) That is.... (end) Prabhupāda: That is his blessing. He wanted; *I tried. That's all. Whatever is being done, it is by his desire. Vaiṣṇava sata saṅkalpa.(?) Whatever he desires, that is to be fulfilled. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau [ŚU 6.23]. Therefore, full faith in guru, that is the prime factor of success. Not any other things, no qualifications, no education, only strong faith in guru. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. This is the secret. So whatever little success is there, that was only this qualification, that I wanted to serve him. That's all. Otherwise, there was no business of coming here at the age of seventy years. Hṛdayānanda: No one could imagine that. *Prabhupāda: You have seen all my room in the Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple? *Rādhā*-vallabha: We looked through the cracks. They're usually not open. Very inspiring. *Hṛdayānanda: Rādhā*-vallabha has one newspaper article when you had just arrived in, I think, Butler. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Trivikrama brought it up last..., two nights ago. Hṛdayānanda: When you had just arrived, I think before going to New York, and when you were being interviewed, and it said the Swami is welcoming lectures, and it was very inspiring for us. Prabhupāda: The Butler picture? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Another paper was there: "Ambassador of India's culture." Hari-śauri: Yes, that was the same article, in the Butler Eagle. It shows a photograph of you looking through one of your books. Hṛdayānanda: Many times the devotees lament that we could not have been there to help you, because there was so much service. Prabhupāda: Yes, you are helping me. (pause) Who can create such fragrance except Kṛṣṇa? (devotees laugh) Fragrance is coming from here, from the dirt, muddy dirt, and fragrance is coming. Unless there is fragrance, how it came here? The color is coming, the beauty is coming, the fragrance is coming, the arrangement is coming along the stem. Where is that scientist? They are seeing every day, and "There is no God." Just see, how foolish they are. You do it. Kīrtanānanda: In the future. Prabhupāda: (laughing) That is another bluff. *Kīrtanānanda: Post*-dated check. Prabhupāda: Even if you do in future, what is credit? It is already done by somebody. Hari-śauri: They're just copying. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They can create fragrance: simply the bad smell of their bodies. Prabhupāda: "In future." They're competing with God, and without being success, still: "I am God." What kind of God you are? And foolish men have no sense; *they accept such rascals as God. They do not see what is God. How beautiful flowers, how nice arrangement. You cannot manufacture even one fiber, and still you deny God. Mūḍha. He's speaking, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10], "Under My supervision everything is being done." And you have got experience that unless one supervises, nothing can be done very nicely. So these things are being done under some expert supervision. This part is green and this part it is red. Two colors are being transferred, transmitted. The flavor is not here, but here. What is this arrangement? There is no brain? Hṛdayānanda: Superintelligence. Prabhupāda: And still the rascals say there is no God. Trivikrama: "Just chance." Prabhupāda: No, what a fool they are. Try to expose these fools. But people have lost their reason, brain, everything. Even if we expose, they cannot understand. Still they will stick. Bahulāśva: What is their hope? Prabhupāda: Hope, last hope is to kill them (makes loud sound with hand or instrument). Devotee: Chopping off their... *Prabhupāda: Kalki*-avatāra. No more teacher, saintly. With sword, cut. Finish. Wholesale massacre. Being killed by God, they get salvation. Bahulāśva: Even for doing nothing. Bharadvāja: What kind of salvation? *Prabhupāda: Salvation? They realize their spiritual identity. Āpana karama, bhuñjāye śamana, kahoye. Karma*-phala, result of sinful activities, very, very strong. Prahlāda Mahārāja's prayer... Where is that book? Hṛdayānanda: Which one, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I think it is Tenth Chapter. *Rādhā*-vallabha: The beginning of the Tenth Chapter is here. Prabhupāda: Yes, what is the first verse? Eighth verse? Hṛdayānanda: Indriyāṇi manaḥ prāṇaḥ or yadi dāsyasi me kāmān? Prabhupāda: No. The Prahlāda Mahārāja's prayer? See this contents. Hṛdayānanda: It starts in the Ninth Chapter, his prayers. Prabhupāda: Brahmādayaḥ... Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Read that. Hṛdayānanda: "Prahlāda Mahārāja prayed: How is it possible for me, who have been born in a family of asuras, to offer suitable prayers to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead? Even until now all the demigods, headed by Lord Brahmā, and all the saintly persons could not satisfy the Lord by streams of excellent words, although such persons are very qualified, being in the mode of goodness. Then what is to be said of me? I am not at all qualified." Prabhupāda: Go on, second. Hṛdayānanda: Purport? Prabhupāda: No purport, translation. Hṛdayānanda: Sanskrit also? Prabhupāda: Or translation. No, Sanskrit also. The mantra, hearing, that is very valuable. These are all Vedic mantras. If you simply hear, it helps you spiritually. Hṛdayānanda: "Prahlāda Mahārāja continued: One may possess wealth, an aristocratic family, beauty, austerity, education, sensory expertise, luster, influence, physical strength, diligence, intelligence and mystic yogic power, but I think that even by all these qualifications one cannot satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. However, one can satisfy the Lord simply by devotional service. Gajendra did this, and thus the Lord was satisfied with him." *"If a brāhmaṇa has all twelve of the brahminical qualifications [as they are stated in the book called Sanat-sujāta] but is not a devotee and is averse to the lotus feet of the Lord, he is certainly lower than a devotee who is a dog-eater but who has dedicated everything-mind, words, activities, wealth and life*-to the Supreme Lord. Such a devotee is better than such a brāhmaṇa because the devotee can purify his whole family, whereas the so-called brāhmaṇa in a position of false prestige cannot purify even himself." "The Supreme Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is always fully satisfied in Himself. Therefore when something is offered to Him, the offering, by the Lord's mercy, is for the benefit of the devotee, for the Lord does not need service from anyone. To give an example, if one's face is decorated, the reflection of one's face in a mirror is also seen to be decorated." "Therefore, although I was born in a demoniac family, I may without a doubt offer prayers to the Lord with full endeavor, as far as my intelligence allows. Anyone who has been forced by ignorance to enter the material world may be purified of material life if he offers prayers to the Lord and hears the Lord's glories." "O my Lord, all the demigods, headed by Lord Brahmā, are sincere servants of Your Lordship, who are situated in a transcendental position. Therefore they are not like us [Prahlāda and his father, the demon Hiraṇyakaśipu]. Your appearance in this fearsome form is Your pastime for Your own pleasure. Such an incarnation is always meant for the protection and improvement of the universe." "My Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, please, therefore, cease Your anger now that my father, the great demon Hiraṇyakaśipu, has been killed. Since even saintly persons take pleasure in the killing of a scorpion or a snake, all the worlds have achieved great satisfaction because of the death of this demon. Now they are confident of their happiness, and they will always remember Your auspicious incarnation in order to be free from fear." Prabhupāda: You are reading the transcription or original verse? Hṛdayānanda: Transcription. Prabhupāda: So this transcription is quite helpful in pronunciation, everything. Exact it is coming. The diacritic marks follow, you can pronounce exactly. Then? Hṛdayānanda: "My Lord, who are never conquered by anyone, I am certainly not afraid of Your ferocious mouth and tongue, Your eyes bright like the sun, or Your frowning eyebrows. I do not fear Your sharp, pinching teeth, Your garland of intestines, Your mane soaked with blood, or Your high, wedgelike ears. Nor do I fear Your tumultuous roaring, which makes elephants flee to distant places, or Your nails, which are meant to kill Your enemies." Prabhupāda: Now he'll come to the point in which he's afraid of. Next verse. Hṛdayānanda: "O most powerful, insurmountable Lord, who are kind to the fallen souls, I have been put into the association of demons as a result of my activities, and therefore I am very much afraid of my condition of life within this material world. When will that moment come when You will call me to the shelter of Your lotus feet, which are the ultimate goal for liberation from conditional life?" Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja afraid of this material life, not of Nṛsiṁhadeva. Such a fierceful appearance, he knows "He's my Lord." No fear, but he's afraid of this material existence. Trasto 'smi, read it, the same verse, trasto 'smi. *Hṛdayānanda: Trasto 'smy ahaṁ kṛpaṇa*-vatsala duḥsahogra. Prabhupāda: Duḥsahogra: this material life, the tribulation, it is unbearable. Trasto 'smi, duḥsaha ugra. Hm. Then? *Hṛdayānanda: Saṁsāra*-cakra. *Prabhupāda: Ah, saṁsāra*-cakra. Then? *Hṛdayānanda: Kadanād grasatāṁ praṇītaḥ, baddhaḥ sva*-karmabhir uśattama... *Prabhupāda: "And when I am put into this condition... Not that I am accusing You. It is due to my own fault, sva*-karmabhiḥ, by my own resultant action of karma." Then? *Hṛdayānanda: Uśattama te 'ṅghri*-mūlam. Prabhupāda: "Therefore kindly engage me in Your service." What is the translation? Hṛdayānanda: Of the whole verse? Prabhupāda: Of this verse, yes. Hṛdayānanda: "O most powerful, insurmountable Lord, who are kind to the fallen souls, I have been put into the association of demons as a result of my activities, and therefore I am very much afraid of my condition of life within this material world. When will that moment come when You will call me to the shelter of Your lotus feet, which are the ultimate goal for liberation from conditional life?" Prabhupāda: Hm. Is there a purport? *Hṛdayānanda: Yes. "Being in the material world is certainly miserable, but certainly when one is put into the association of asuras, or atheistic men, it is intolerably so. One may ask why the living entity is put into the material world. Indeed, sometimes foolish people deride the Lord for having put them here. Actually, everyone is put into conditional life according to his karma. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja, representing all the other conditioned souls, admits that he was put into life among the asuras because of the results of his karma. The Lord is known as kṛpaṇa*-vatsala because He is extremely kind to the conditioned souls. As stated in Bhagavad-gītā, therefore, the Lord appears when there are discrepancies in the execution of religious principles (yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata... tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham [Bg. 4.7]). The Lord is extremely anxious to deliver the conditioned souls, and therefore He instructs all of us to return home, back to Godhead (sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]). Thus Prahlāda Mahārāja expected that the Lord, by His kindness, would call him again to the shelter of His lotus feet. In other words, everyone should be eager to return home, back to Godhead, taking shelter of the lotus feet of the Lord and thus being fully trained in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Prabhupāda: Next verse. *Hṛdayānanda: Yasmāt priyāpriya*-viyoga-saṁyoga-janma. Prabhupāda: This is description of this material life. Yasmāt priyāpriya? *Hṛdayānanda: Viyoga*-saṁyoga-janma. Prabhupāda: Hm. Hṛdayānanda: "O great one, O Supreme Lord, because of combination with pleasing and displeasing circumstances and because of separation from them, one is placed in a most regrettable position, within heavenly or hellish planets, as if burning in a fire of lamentation. Although there are many remedies by which to get out of miserable life, any such remedies in the material world are more miserable than the miseries themselves." Prabhupāda: Just see (laughs). You want to mitigate some misery, and the process is still more miserable. Is it not? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are trying to solve one problem, but creating another hundreds of problems. Bharadvāja: What are some of the examples? Prabhupāda: Hm? Bharadvāja: What is some example of that? Prabhupāda: Just like you create a motorcar for easy transportation, and you have experience: the power problem, the accident problem. If there is no power problem, you get more petrol, and you commit more accidents. And you stop car, then you are unable to move, because you now you have created city. If you want to go to consult a doctor, you have to go thirty miles from your residence. You require doctor, but because you have now car, you have big, big roads. So your doctor, medical consultant, is living thirty miles off. So you have to ride on cars to go to the market, to go to the office, to go to the medical man. So car is required. And as soon as car is there, the accident is there, and there is, power shortage is there, you require big, big roads, so on, so on, so on. Hari-śauri: Pollution. Prabhupāda: So where is the solution of your problems? It has created more problems. Kīrtanānanda: So village life is best. Prabhupāda: That is the best life. That you develop. It will be an ideal thing. You haven't got to go office fifty miles off. Just get little vegetables and milk, bas, your problem is solved. It is practical. Why you should go fifty miles off? *Rādhā*-vallabha: In New York, to go to work, they go into the subway car, and there are so many people... Prabhupāda: That... Not only, the ferry, steamer, bus, train, subway, cars, there are so many things. I've seen it. They start for going to the office early in the morning, and they come back at eleven o'clock at night. And few hours, that is their family life. And that hours are wasted by sleeping and by sex. This is their life. And to forget all these miserable conditions, drink. This is civilization. Hṛdayānanda: Horrible. *Rādhā*-vallabha: My father used to get up very early in the morning to go to work, and he would be so tired from going to work, as soon as he got home, he would just eat and immediately fall asleep. I'd ask him why he was working so hard, he would say, "Simply to support the children." But now he has no more wife, no more children, and he's still working the same. Prabhupāda: Horrible civilization. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They say they have no time. Prabhupāda: (laughs) All right, come to New Vrindaban, we shall give you food. That they won't come. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They have to work. Devotee: They are afraid of nature. Kīrtanānanda: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, I'm going back tonight. Prabhupāda: Why so soon? Kīrtanānanda: To get ready for your coming. *Rādhā*-vallabha: I think that's all Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja ever thinks of, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I think all Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja ever thinks of is when you are coming. Prabhupāda: I am also thinking of their fresh vegetables and fresh milk. (devotees laugh) Which is not avail... Hayagrīva: Remember the first time you came out, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Hayagrīva: Remember the first time you came? You walked up the road. Our car, we tried to take you in the car, but it didn't work, it broke. Power wagon. Kīrtanānanda: It got stuck. Prabhupāda: All fresh vegetable, fresh milk, this is celestial. Who has got the opportunity in the city? Automatically. (noise like drums in background) Devotee: Some kind of parade. Prabhupāda: All right. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Prabhupāda: No, no. Curtain. Rādhāvallabha: Curtain, oh. Close? Hari-śauri: Shut it now. Shade, the shade. Rāmeśvara: I showed Richard the "Hare Kṛṣṇa People" movie that Yadubara made, and Yamunā mātājī made some prasādam for him to taste. So he's gotten some introduction already. Richard: OK. You came here not too many years ago. Did you ever expect that it would grow into what it has over the years? Prabhupāda: We came in 1965. Richard: Eleven years ago. And in a relatively short period of time you've managed to gather around you a great number of people. Has it surprised you or... Prabhupāda: Yes, I did not expect. When I came here I did not expect, because we have got so many strictures, so I did not expect that here the people will accept my proposal. Richard: Your proposal? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because our proposal is "No sinful life." No more illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no gambling, no intoxicants. So I did not expect that anyone will accept this proposal. (laughs) Richard: Are those three sort of proscriptions... Devotee: Four. Richard: Four, sorry. Are they prerequisites to accepting your knowledge? Prabhupāda: The real thing is.... You can easily understand that "I am not this body; there is a living force within the body." Is it very difficult to understand? This body is not sufficient. The real body means the living force within the body. Is it not? You are talking; what is the difference, you're not talking? Now, if the body is dead, you cannot talk anymore, finished. So what is that force within you that is causing you to talk? Do you know anything about that? Richard: Have I thought about it, me, personally? Prabhupāda: No. Have you ever thought about it? Richard: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is that? Richard: What did I think about it? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Richard: Um, that I, I've always viewed myself as my self. Prabhupāda: Myself, that's what..., you are not this body. You are not.... Body is not yourself. Did you ever think of it? Richard: Well, when I say "myself," I should perhaps define it. Myself being all that I can recall being before, as well as my present, ah... Prabhupāda: How do you distinguish between a dead man or living man? Richard: Um, well... Prabhupāda: The living man is important, but the dead man is not important. Richard: Not his physical body, no. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then within the physical body, there is something which is making him living man. Is it not? Richard: Um... Prabhupāda: What is the dead man? Something is missing; therefore it is dead. Otherwise the body is there. Richard: Right. Okay. His ability to, to... Prabhupāda: Yes. Body is.... The same hands, legs, mouth, eyes, ears, hair, everything is there, but now they're crying, "Oh, Mr. such and such gone, oh, finished." What is that finished? Richard: Well, his ability to share... Prabhupāda: What is that ability? That is my question. Why this important man is now useless although the same hands, legs, mouth, everything is there, but it is useless? Richard: Well, he's no longer... Prabhupāda: What was the important thing? Richard: The important thing was his ability to share physically and intellectually. Prabhupāda: Yes, that means that important thing was within the body; now it is missing. That is distinction between dead man and living man. Richard: As far as I'm concerned that's it. Prabhupāda: That is very important thing. This nice body can work on account of presence of that important thing. Otherwise, useless. Richard: Right. Prabhupāda: So we are preaching about that important thing. Richard: Isn't that the object of all philosophies, both personal and... Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real philosophy. You must take care of the living force within the body. Richard: Right, and aren't there many ways that you can do that, aren't there many approaches...? Prabhupāda: First of all, let us understand the importance of that living force. Then we shall find out means how to keep it fit. People are not aware of this living force. They accept this dead body as important. That is material civilization. They are taking care of the body but not the living force which is making this body important. Richard: And you think that is a problem with...? Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Education means to understand that, what is the important thing within this body. Otherwise, cats and dogs, they are also working with the bodily concept of life. The dog is jumping, barking. He's thinking, "I'm dog, I'm this body." Richard: Okay, as far as nurturing the body through knowledge, is the goal of what you teach to eliminate obstacles in... Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard: That is the goal? Prabhupāda: Everything is aimed at to eliminate obstacles. Now, so far the body is concerned, there are so many obstacles. Everyone is struggling hard, that is for struggle for existence, to get out of the obstacles. Whole struggle for existence is to save ourselves from the obstacles. Richard: Right. How do you determine what's an obstacle? Prabhupāda: Obstacles, the ultimate obstacle is that you don't like to die, but you can die any moment. This is greatest obstacle. Why don't you think of it? You are sitting here, you are young man. So you may die immediately. Richard: Uh huh. Prabhupāda: That is the greatest obstacle. You have got so many plans to do in your life, but you can die any moment. Is it not obstacle? Richard: The presence of death or the possibility of death? Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard: Um, to me, I don't think really it is, for me. Prabhupāda: Why? Why not? You don't like to die. Richard: I don't think.... That doesn't bother me. *Prabhupāda: It bothers. Suppose you have got some plan you have to do*-everyone has got some plan, ideas, some improvement-but what is the guarantee that you'll be able to execute that plan? Because you can die at any moment. Richard: Right, there is none. Prabhupāda: So it is not obstacle? Richard: No. Prabhupāda: How is that, is not obstacle? You are planning something, that "I shall do this..." You may not be very important man, but there are many important men. The leaders of the society, they are planning that "I shall make my nation like this way, my family like this way." Everyone is planning. But where is the guarantee that he'll be able to fulfill the plan? Death may take place any moment. So is it not obstacle? Richard: Hm. I really don't view it as an obstacle, the fact that my plans may be altered. *Prabhupāda: You may not. You may not, but we have got personal experience that people do not want to die until he fulfills some, his brainwork plan. I have seen. One, my friend, he was dying, he was at that time fifty*-four years old only, and he was begging the doctor, "My dear doctor, medical man, can you not give me four years time only, I can fulfill my plan?" He was very big businessman, so he was planning something to do, but doctor said that "You cannot survive." So he was begging the mercy of the doctor, "Doctor, can you not give me at least four years time?" As if the doctor can give him life. He was feeling this is obstacle: "I'm going to die without fulfilling my plan." I think that psychology is everywhere. Richard: But, but generally, how can...? Prabhupāda: You may not be afraid of, but generally. Richard: Generally, how can you determine an obstacle... Prabhupāda: I've seen it, I've seen it, that he was begging the doctor, "Please give me four years life. Give me some medicine so that I'll live at least for four years, I'll finish my plan." I've seen it. You are the first man that you are not afraid of death (devotees laugh), but I see everyone is afraid of death. Richard: I... Prabhupāda: You see. As soon as there is immediately siren, I've seen it, also... Richard: Are you afraid of death? Prabhupāda: No. My position is different, because I know I'm not going to die. My position is different. Because we are confident, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. We are not going to die. Death is no question for us. Richard: Umhm. Okay. Prabhupāda: Therefore we are not afraid of death. That is another thing. But generally, people, they are actually. Are you not afraid of disease? Richard: I would not wish to be in great pain or agony, no. Prabhupāda: But there is pain, as soon as you are in disease, there is great pain. Richard: Uh, yes, but there are quick deaths and there are slow deaths. Prabhupāda: No. Everyone is afraid of this. Are you not afraid of old age and invalidity? Richard: Not particularly. I mean, it's a part of life. Prabhupāda: You are liberated. (devotees laugh) Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda said you are liberated. Richard: I'm what? Rāmeśvara: Liberated. Richard: Oh. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Naturally, everyone, that is the problem of life. Otherwise, why there are so many medical colleges, drug shops and medicines, just to avoid disease? Otherwise, there was no need of arrangement. Everyone is afraid of disease, not to suffer from disease. That's a fact. If you say that you are not afraid of disease, that is something new. But unless we are afraid of disease, why there is this Memorial Hospital, this drug shop, this pharmacy? Why these things are required? We don't want it. Richard: Do you...? You have a doctor, though, you said, right? Prabhupāda: No, I am not a doctor. Richard: You have no doctor. *Prabhupāda: My point is that these are the problems*-birth, death, old age and disease. This is our point. Richard: That these are the basic problems of most men? Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard: Death, fears of death and disease. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. Richard: You too? Prabhupāda: Everyone, I am everyone also. I am also, I have taken up my translation work, *Bhāgavatam*. So I am trying to live at least up to the time I finish my translation. That is also.... I do not wish to die before I finish. That is also.... Everyone is like that. Richard: But what happens if you do die before you finish? *Prabhupāda: Well, you are talking something extraordinary. Everyone has got some ambition, and he wants to do it, and death, disease, old age, these are impediments. That is the point. No one wants to die premature death. Family man, a family man wants to see that his sons are properly educated or they are well*-placed, so on, so on, so many things. And if all of a sudden death comes, he becomes sorry, that "I could not finish my business." Therefore death is impediment. Richard: You were widely respected in India before you came to the United States? Prabhupāda: Why bring that question? First of all, let us finish this question. Richard: No, no, I'm getting to it. Ah, if you had died before you had come to the United States, would that have been a tragedy? Rāmeśvara: Yes, that would have been a big tragedy for all of us. That is premature. That's the example Prabhupāda is giving. If a man wants to educate his sons, but he dies before they can be educated, then, to him, that is a premature death. So therefore he does not want that. In fact he's afraid: "Please, I don't want to die before I see my sons educated." So that is a fear of death. Prabhupāda: Therefore death is an obstacle. That is the point. Rāmeśvara: An obstacle to the goals of his life. Prabhupāda: One who has no responsibility, that is another thing. But a responsible man wants to finish the responsibility, and if death comes before that, that's an obstacle. Richard: Um hm. Okay. Ah, how about smaller obstacles in life, though, than death? I mean this... Prabhupāda: This is the major obstacles, and subordinate to these obstacles there are hundreds and millions of obstacles. Richard: There are millions of obstacles. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the main obstacle. Richard: Right, right, okay. But I mean, okay, you say most people are, almost everyone, except me perhaps, is concerned about death. Ah, but how about the smaller obstacles which nevertheless can make people very depressed, neurotic? How do you recognize and live with them or eliminate them? *Prabhupāda: Our point is there are hundreds and millions of obstacles. If they are, I mean to say, summarized, they become birth, death, old age and disease. This is my point. There are hundred and thousands of obstacles, but if you take all of them and make a summary, then it comes four*-birth, death, old age and disease. Rāmeśvara: He wants to know, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if these are the obstacles, how do we Kṛṣṇa conscious people deal with these obstacles or eliminate these obstacles? Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are doing by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Richard: How? Prabhupāda: Because if we try to understand Kṛṣṇa, simply by understanding Him, I am going to get a life which will be free of all obstacles. Richard: And how do you do that? Prabhupāda: That you see what we are doing. Richard: By living this type of life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard: Well, what about the people who don't live here at the āśrama, people who live, if you want to call it, the outside world, ah... Prabhupāda: They are not getting the opportunity. We are giving the opportunity. You come here and live here. Richard: This is the only way? Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard: Living in an āśrama. Prabhupāda: Not living..., to take the philosophy. Follow the policy or process; then your life is successful. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like our householders, they have their apartments, but they're always associated with Kṛṣṇa's service. Richard: Right. Prabhupāda: Just like we are writing so many books to give them enlightenment. This is the process. It is an educational movement, how to overcome these obstacles. That is the sum and substance. Richard: Do you think there are any other ways which are equally effective? Prabhupāda: No. Richard: Isn't the spiritual benefit that people in the āśrama here get... Prabhupāda: First of all, you must know what is spirit. They do not know even what is spirit. Richard: Well, okay, there are many contented people in the world, there are many people who are at peace with themselves... *Prabhupāda: Contented*-ass is contented. He has no problem. The best-contented living being is an ass. He has no complaint. So that is not civilization. Richard: That is not what? Prabhupāda: That is not civilization, or life. Richard: Okay, but being able to live with your limitations and be therefore content, ah, within those limitations... Prabhupāda: That I already said, that animal lives very content within his limitation. He doesn't like to improve. But that is not human life. Richard: Well, okay, ah, but I know many people who are relatively contented and still growing. Prabhupāda: What is the contentment? If you have got the problems unsolved, that is ass's contentment. Ass does not know how to check death. He does not think of it. But a human being's intelligence says whether the disease can be checked, whether the death can be checked. That is human being. The ass cannot think. If we remain contented like an ass, so that is animal life. Richard: Right, but still people carry on, people... Prabhupāda: Let them carry on. Ass is also carrying on. That is another thing. But distinction between ass's life and human life, the ass cannot estimate the impediments or the obstacles of life. A human being can see, and it is his duty how to overcome it. Richard: Pardon me while I get that down. Um, yeah, okay, I guess what I'm saying then is that I know many people who do not live in āśramas, who will... Prabhupāda: I am not advising that you live in āśrama, but.... Just like here is an.... You see, McGill University. So they are giving permanent order of our books. So the university authorities, they are not coming to our āśrama, but they'll get the benefit by reading our books. Richard: Right. Okay. But I know people who have not had the benefit of reading your books, and yet, as far as I know, and I've gotten to know them very well, they seem to be living lives which, for them, work. The obstacles they can cope with, and I guess what I'm saying, or advancing, is that perhaps the... Prabhupāda: There are many men who do not go to the university and live peacefully. But that does not mean university is useless. Similarly, many men may not come to us, that does not mean this institution is useless. It has its importance for the serious men, not for the asses. Richard: Right, but do you think... Prabhupāda: Just like this university, they are serious for education, and they are ordering our books. Others may not order; they are not reading. That means they are not serious. Richard: Only the people who are... Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge is for the intelligent class of men. Richard: But there are many types of knowledge, and there are many ranges, depths of knowledge. Prabhupāda: So many types, this is also one type of knowledge. Richard: Right, it is not the only type, that's what I'm... Prabhupāda: No, there are different aims also. If you are interested to become an expert medical man, then the knowledge is different. If you want to become an engineer, the knowledge is different. Similarly, if he wants to overcome all the obstacles, then this is the education. Richard: Um hm. Prabhupāda: This is the final. Richard: What about other religions? Prabhupāda: Other..., you become interested in medical, you become a medical man, you become an engineer, you become other.... You take that education. But one who is interested to stop all obstacles of life, this is the only education. Richard: This is the only one. Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard: Have you studied other religions? Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore I'm saying. Without studying, how can I say? I am challenging, not saying. We are challenging. We are not saying only. Richard: Um hm. Prabhupāda: If you want to overcome all obstacles of life, this is the only education. That's all. Or if you have different aims of life, there are different departments of knowledge. But if you want this knowledge, then this is the education. Richard: According to you, this is the only spiritual knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard: What you write about and have studied. Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard: What would you classify, ah, other works, say, the Koran or the Bible or any other religious... Prabhupāda: Well they are also aiming to this aim of life. Richard: They are in the same aim. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Richard: But do you think they are successful? Prabhupāda: They are successful if they follow the education. Just like Christ, he's speaking of kingdom of God. So if you follow Christ, there is hope that you go to kingdom of God. But if you don't follow, you simply rubberstamp, "I am Christian," then it is useless. Richard: But there are other...? Prabhupāda: Yes, they are of the same type. Richard: Yes, but do they have any value as far as you are concerned? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, they have value. Richard: Okay, that's what I was trying to get at. Prabhupāda: There is value. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda meant that the other branches of knowledge outside of our... Richard: Oh, yes, right, I wasn't talking about that. Rāmeśvara: That was mis... Richard: Right, I wasn't talking about a technical or secular knowledge at all. I was talking about other spiritual philosophies. Prabhupāda: No. Any science, any knowledge who is trying to give enlightenment about God, there is the same line as we are doing. Richard: Right, but those people who study say, okay, to use an example, the Pope. Now there is a man who has dedicated his whole life, publicly, personally, spiritually, however you define it, to Christianity, specifically to the Catholic Church. Now apparently, and for all intents and purposes, his life seems to work for him. Prabhupāda: The thing is, the Catholic Church is the original Church, I think. Richard: The original Christian Church, yes. Prabhupāda: Then why there are so many varieties? Richard: Well, because... Prabhupāda: Now hundreds and thousands of churches are there. Richard: Right. Other people find that... Prabhupāda: That means they don't like Catholic Church. They don't like. So they are missing the point. Richard: Of the Catholic Church. Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard: True, I agree. But is the point of the Catholic Church the only point that's to be made? *Prabhupāda: And if you accept Christianity, then the Catholic process, I think-I do not know*-that is only way. Richard: But is the point that the Catholic Church makes the only point to be made? Prabhupāda: Not Catholic. I mean to say, any church original, authoritatively, that is genuine. If you deviate from that, then you cannot claim to that school. Rāmeśvara: It's an example that if the Catholic Church is presenting the teachings of Jesus as it is, and then later on other churches deviate a little, then to deviate from the teachings of Jesus is bad, and to stick strictly to the teachings of Jesus is the only way, in Christianity. That's the idea. Richard: Yes, but the goal is similar in Christianity. Prabhupāda: The goal cannot be similar. If you deviate, the goal is different. Richard: No, no.... The.... Okay, the goal generally is the same. Prabhupāda: There is no question. Goal is one, so if you deviate, then you go away from the goal. Richard: Right, but the goal seems to me, as I have studied Christianity... Prabhupāda: What is the goal? Richard: The goal of Christianity is to make a better life here on earth for the followers of Christ and after death. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That is our preaching also. Richard: That's your goal also. Okay... Prabhupāda: Just like a student is being trained up in medical college, and when he becomes practitioner, the same thing. There is no change. There is no change. Richard: Yes, I think you are talking about specific... Prabhupāda: No, no, this is.... Take Christian religion. So going to the church, it is practicing how to establish relationship with Christ and God. So after death, if he's perfect, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Richard: Um hm, right. Prabhupāda: So this is practice. If one is interested in going back to home, back to Godhead, then this is the only way. *Richard: Okay, let me just say something, and then, you know, like, you can take it however you want. It seems to me that there all through life, men, all through history, men have been more or less striving for this same general goal*-happiness here and here... Prabhupāda: No, no, same general goal.... You must speak.... If you say same general goal, everyone says, "This is also general goal, this is also general goal." You must specifically mention what is that. *Richard: Okay, that goal is happiness here on earth, and however you define happiness, security, well*-being, food on the table, however you want to, and... Prabhupāda: But if somebody says that "I don't require to go to church for happiness. I find happiness by drinking. Let me go to the brothel and drink," that is also happiness. You cannot say. How can you say, "I don't care to go to the church. I am getting happiness here." Richard: I'm thinking of it in a larger sense than that. Prabhupāda: Happiness must be happiness. It doesn't mean that because larger accepts something happiness, that is happiness. No. Happiness must be real happiness. Richard: Okay, what do you define as real happiness? Prabhupāda: One may like it or not like it, that is not the question. Happiness is real happiness. Richard: Right. Okay, that's what I'm talking about, spiritual happiness. Prabhupāda: So if you simply say happiness, if you do not explain what is real happiness, then somebody will say, "I'm feeling happiness by drinking here. Why you are asking me to go to the church? You go, I don't go." That's all. Then you have to explain what is real happiness. Whether that real happiness is obtainable by going to the church or going to the brothel, liquor house? Richard: Well, I don't think that any... Prabhupāda: You don't think, but he thinks that "Here is happiness." You cannot induce him. He thinks. Just like few minutes ago you said that there is no obstacle, but we think there is obstacle. There is different thoughts. They don't care what is God, what is.... "I don't want to know what is God. I'm getting happiness," finished. Richard: Okay, but continuing, you know, continuing, people are, okay.... People I think are basically the same in many respects as far as... Prabhupāda: No, no, that is wrong. That is wrong. Richard: That is wrong. Okay, why? Prabhupāda: You see. I have already explained. One is getting happiness by drinking, and one is getting happiness by going to the church. You cannot say that they are the same. Richard: Well I think they're the same in intent. Prabhupāda: Now what do you mean by that? First of all, describe what is happiness, whether drinking is happiness or going to the church is happiness. Therefore you have to define what is happiness. Then we have to select whether this happiness is obtainable in the liquor shop or in the church. You must have clear idea of happiness. And if you speak generally, then he will say, "I am getting happiness; why you are insisting me go to the church? I am getting happiness." Therefore you have to define what is happiness. Richard: Okay, I would say happiness is the pursuit of, to you, what makes your life work, worthwhile. Prabhupāda: We are not working, we are not interested in working. *Richard: Well, when I say work, I mean what gives you an inner respect for yourself, um, yeah, I think it all boils down to self*-respect, an appreciation of... *Prabhupāda: What is this self*-respect? *Richard: Self*-respect? Self-respect would be an appreciation and cognizance of your spiritual and physical being. Prabhupāda: What is my actual being? Physical being or spiritual being? Richard: Both. I mean they are part of, to me, they are one manifestation. Prabhupāda: And after death what happens? Richard: Do I feel personally? Prabhupāda: No, everyone. Richard: I think everyone has different ideas. There are many different ideas about what happens after death. Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to know what is reality. Richard: What is reality. Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to know what is reality. Simply ideas will not do. Richard: Okay, reality I would say is... Prabhupāda: If you do not know, how you will say? You say that you do not know, but how you will say, if you do not know what is reality? Richard: Oh, I know what reality is. Prabhupāda: What is that? Richard: Reality is a series of moments or a moment perceived by the senses. Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. The drunkard is feeling by drinking his senses are very satisfied, that is reality. Richard: Sure, it's his reality. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then why should you canvass him, "Please come to the church and accept Christianity"? Richard: Frankly, I don't know. I don't really know why he should be asked to go to church. Prabhupāda: Therefore.... Then there is no need of church. Everyone can do whatever he thinks reality. That is no standard reality. Richard: No, reality is not in itself a goal. It just is. Prabhupāda: Then what is the goal? Richard: I would say, you know, we discussed this earlier, it's a, it's trying to find what makes one's life worthwhile. Prabhupāda: Trying to find, that means you do not know. Richard: No, I think life is a pursuit, I don't think it... Prabhupāda: What is that pursuit if you have no aim or objective? You are going to school, the object is you become a graduate. If you do not know what is the ultimate goal, what is this pursuit? Richard: Why pursue something? Prabhupāda: You are going to school, college, suppose you are going to be graduate, but if you do not know what is the ultimate end of pursuit, then what is this pursuit? Simply blind? Richard: No, it's, it's just trying to make your life work. Prabhupāda: There must be some goal, ultimate goal. That we must know. That is called pursuit. If you do not know what is the ultimate goal of life, then there is no meaning of pursuit. Richard: Um. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda is talking about an absolute reality, not a relative reality. Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard: What is your definition of an absolute reality? Prabhupāda: That is final. Richard: A goal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard: Okay, and what is the absolute reality? Prabhupāda: Relative means it is understood in two ways. Absolute means there are no two ways, final. Final. So what is the final aim of our life? That we must know. Richard: Do you know? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, we know, everyone, all of our students. Richard: What is that absolute reality that is the absolute goal? Rāmeśvara: The absolute goal is to understand that within this body there is a living force which is spiritual, and that spiritual force is a servant of God. It has a relationship with God. Apart from how you perceive the world through your senses, beyond that there is a soul which has a relationship with God. That is the absolute reality. You may perceive the world in so many ways through your senses, but beyond that, within your body there is a soul which is yearning for a relationship, a loving relationship with God. And if you neglect that relationship due to your senses... Prabhupāda: Ignorance. Rāmeśvara: ...or ignorance, then you're missing the reality of life and you're living in an illusion. Due to your senses you're living, you could live, be living in illusion. The senses are not perfect instruments for understanding reality. There is another process for understanding reality. The senses are not perfect. Therefore one should not depend upon the senses to understand reality. There is a greater process. Richard: And how is that found? Prabhupāda: You find out this verse: sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyaṁ grāhyam. Rāmeśvara: What's the second word, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Sukham ātyantikam. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda: Translation? Rāmeśvara: It's combined with some other verse. "The stage of perfection is called trance, or samādhi, when one's mind is completely restrained from material mental activities by practice of yoga. This is characterized by one's ability to see the self by the pure mind and to relish and rejoice in the self. In that joyous state one is situated in boundless transcendental happiness and enjoys himself through transcendental senses. Established thus, one never departs from the truth, and upon gaining this he thinks that there is no greater gain. Being situated in such a position one is never shaken even in the midst of greatest difficulty. This indeed is actual freedom from all miseries arising from material contact." Prabhupāda: That is translation? Rāmeśvara: That is the translation. Prabhupāda: Purport. *Rāmeśvara: Purport. "By practice of yoga one becomes gradually detached from material concepts. This is the primary characteristic of the yoga principle, and after this one becomes situated in trance, or samādhi, which means that the yogi realizes the Supersoul through transcendental mind and intelligence, without any of the misgivings of identifying the self with the Superself. Yoga practice is more or less based on the principles of the Patañjali system. Some unauthorized commentators try to identify the individual soul with the Supersoul, and the monists think this to be liberation. But they do not understand the real purpose of the Patañjali system of yoga. There is an acceptance of transcendental pleasure in the Patañjali system, but the monists do not accept this transcendental pleasure out of fear of jeopardizing the theory of oneness. The duality of knowledge and knower is not accepted by the nondualist, but in this verse transcendental pleasure realized through transcendental senses is accepted, and this is corroborated by the Patañjali Muni, the famous exponent of the yoga system. The great sage declares in his Yoga*-sūtras: puruṣārtha-śūnyānāṁ guṇānāṁ pratiprasavaḥ kaivalyaṁ svarūpa-pratiṣṭhā vā citi-śaktir iti. This cit-śakti, or internal potency, is transcendental. Puruṣārtha means material religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and, at the end, the attempt to become one with the Supreme. This oneness with the Supreme is called kaivalyam by the monist. But according to Patañjali, this kaivalyam is an internal, or transcendental, potency by which the living entity becomes aware of his constitutional position. In the words of Lord Caitanya, this state of affairs is called ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], or clearance of the impure mirror of the mind. This clearance is actually liberation, or bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. The theory of nirvāṇa-also preliminary-corresponds with this principle. In the Bhāgavatam this is called svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. The Bhagavad-gītā also confirms this situation in this verse. After nirvāṇa, or material cessation, there is the manifestation of spiritual activities, or devotional service of the Lord, known as Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the words of the Bhāgavatam, svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ: this is the real life of the living entity. māyā, or illusion, is the condition of spiritual life contaminated by material infection. Liberation from this material infection does not mean destruction of the original, eternal position of the living entity. Patañjali also accepts this by his words kaivalyaṁ svarūpa-pratiṣṭhā vā citi-śaktir iti. This citi-śakti, or transcendental pleasure, is real life. This is confirmed in the Vedānta-sūtras as ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). This natural, transcendental pleasure is the ultimate goal of yoga and is easily achieved by execution of devotional service, or bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga will be vividly described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā." Should I keep reading Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Should I continue? Prabhupāda: There is still there? Rāmeśvara: There is another page. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rāmeśvara: "In the yoga system, as described in this chapter, there are two kinds of samādhi, called samprajñāta*-samādhi and asamprajñāta-samādhi. When one becomes situated in the transcendental position by various philosophical researches, it is called samprajñāta-samādhi. In the asamprajñāta-samādhi there is no longer any connection with mundane pleasure, for one is then transcendental to all sorts of happiness derived from the senses. When the yogi is once situated in that transcendental position, he is never shaken from it. Unless the yogi is able to reach this position, he is unsuccessful. Today's so-called yoga practice, which involves various sense pleasures, is contradictory. A yogi indulging in sex and intoxication is a mockery. Even those yogis who are attracted by the siddhis, or perfections, in the process of yoga are not perfectly situated. If the yogis are attracted by the by-products of yoga, then they cannot attain the stage of perfection as is stated in this verse. Persons, therefore, indulging in the make-show practice of gymnastic feats or siddhis should know that the aim of yoga is lost in that way. The best practice of yoga in this age is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is not baffling. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person is so happy in his occupation that he does not aspire after any other happiness. There are many impediments, especially in this age of hypocrisy, to practicing haṭha-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, and jñāna-yoga, but there is no such problem in executing karma-yoga or bhakti-yoga. As long as the material body exists, one has to meet the demands of the body, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating. But a person who is in pure bhakti-yoga, or in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, does not arouse the senses while meeting the demands of the body. Rather, he accepts the bare necessities of life, making the best use of a bad bargain, and enjoys transcendental happiness in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He is callous toward incidental occurrences-such as accidents, disease, scarcity and even the death of a most dear relative-but he is always alert to execute his duties in Kṛṣṇa consciousness or bhakti-yoga. Accidents never deviate him from his duty. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, āgamāpāyino nityās tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. He endures all such incidental occurrences because he knows that they come and go and do not affect his duties. In this way he achieves the highest perfection in yoga practice." Richard: Did you write..., you wrote the purport? Okay, um, when you said the person who is involved with Kṛṣṇa consciousness makes the best use of a bad bargain, were you referring to life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard: This physical life? Rāmeśvara: Physical. Richard: Okay. Prabhupāda: The physical life is struggle for existence. Richard: Is a struggle for existence. Why is...? Why, if a man who is an alcoholic, if that's the best that he can make of life, why is that bad? Prabhupāda: That is not.... He's wrongly, he's going in the wrong path. Richard: Well, if that's the best that he can do. Prabhupāda: He can think. Richard: He can change? Prabhupāda: Yes, he can change. Change is possible, but if he sticks, that is his selection. Richard: Ah, but suppose drinking to him is better than what he has to put up with... Prabhupāda: That is not actual fact. Drinking, nobody can be happy by drinking. That is not possible. *Richard: Okay, okay. You said in the purport that tragedies of life*-I'm paraphrasing-tragedies of life such as death of even a close relative are mere incidental occurrences. Is...? But you said earlier that death to you was anything but a mere incidental occurrence, that it was the... Prabhupāda: No, we are not irresponsible to the death. Death, although we have to meet death, we are making provision that after death we become happy. Happy, of course, for us, even in living condition or dead condition, there is happiness, but it will take time to understand. But taking superficially, death is not very pleasing, so after death, that is mentioned in the Bha.... Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma [Bg. 4.9], we do not get again a material body. This is final. The material body is the cause of pains and pleasure. So if you don't get the material body, if you remain in your spiritual body, that is real enjoyment. Richard: But then why do you fear this death of the physical body? Prabhupāda: No, I do not fear. Richard: Oh, you don't? Prabhupāda: No. Richard: Oh, okay. Rāmeśvara: The ordinary man. Prabhupāda: Because... Richard: Well, I don't either, and I'm not in Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is another thing, because you do not know that you are risking your life without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the.... You do not, that I have already said, that an innocent person doesn't know what is going to happen, but things are going to happen. That you do not know. Rāmeśvara: After death. Prabhupāda: So you must be aware what is going to happen after death. Then if you become fearless, that is secure. But without knowing, if you are not afraid, that is risk. Richard: Okay, are you familiar with the writings of Descartes? *Prabhupāda: We don't read anyone's books except Bhagavad*-gītā. Richard: Oh, I thought you said you studied other philosophies. Prabhupāda: Study, there are so many books we study. Richard: Right, okay, well anyway, there was a French philosopher in the 1700's named Rene Descartes, and his... Prabhupāda: I think we have discussed this philosopher. Richard: You have discussed him? All right, one of the things he said was that.... Oh, I'm sorry, it's Pascal. Anyway, same thing practically. Ah, he said that as far as an afterlife goes, as far as proving it, it's impossible to prove it. Prabhupāda: Why impossible? He does not know. Richard: Okay. Prabhupāda: We can prove immediately. Richard: Okay, but it's just a wager, it's a moot argument, the proofs are of a spiritual kind rather than a... Prabhupāda: It requires little brain; otherwise, it can be proved immediately. Richard: Pardon me, I didn't catch the last part. Prabhupāda: This, that the spirit soul is there, that can be proved immediately provided one has brain to understand. Richard: How do you prove that a spirit is dead? Prabhupāda: That is very easy. Just like you are a young man... Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda said "spirit is there." Richard: Oh, oh, I misunderstood. Rāmeśvara: Not that" spirit is dead." Spirit is there. Richard: Oh, oh. I misunderstood. Prabhupāda: Just try to, try to... Rāmeśvara: Just like when you have a very..., when you were first born, you had a very small body. Now you are older. So where is that small body? It is no longer existing. Now you are in a young man's body. So similarly, when you are sixty years old, the body that you have now will no longer exist, but you still exist. Even though your body has changed, your life goes on. In other words, life is not dependent on the body. The body changes. Richard: Yes, but you still have a body at sixty. Rāmeśvara: Death is another change of body. Life will go on. The example of life going on even though you are changing your body, you are experiencing within this one life. You've already experienced that your life goes on even though you have changed your body so many times. So death is simply another change of body. You have already experienced that you can exist even though you have quit one body and gotten a new body. Prabhupāda: Now the point is that you are going to get another body. That's a fact. Richard: How do you know that? Prabhupāda: Now what kind of...? This is a fact, just like you have got already another body. Where is that child's body, where is that boy's body? That is finished. This is the proof. Richard: But I'm still alive. Prabhupāda: Alive, you are always alive. Richard: Physically alive. Prabhupāda: No, physically not. Spiritually, you are always alive. This point is to be understood. The death taking place only of the physical body. That you have to understand. Richard: Right, but I have never been aware of any proof... Prabhupāda: That is education. You are not aware because you are not educated. Richard: Perhaps, but I have never read of anyone else actually proving that there is a spiritual afterlife. Prabhupāda: Here is the proof, he is giving proof. Therefore I said it requires little brain. He's giving proof. Richard: I think it requires more than education; it requires faith. Rāmeśvara: The first question Prabhupāda asked is what is the difference between a dead man and a living man. The body is the same, but something is missing in the dead man, in the dead body. So that is the proof that the body is not living at any time, but there is a living energy, and when that living energy is inside the body, it makes the body seem alive, and if that living energy is taken out of the body, then the body is seen as it really is, a lump of matter. The body is never alive; it is the presence of the soul within the body that animates the body. Richard: Right, animate, that's the etymology of animation, anima, soul. Rāmeśvara: So your body... Richard: I agree with all that. Rāmeśvara: And that living energy is eternal, and when this body becomes an old man's body, or rather when you get an old man's body, the body you have now will be finished, but you will still be alive because you are that eternal living energy. Richard: Okay, and what I am saying is that I have, there has never been any empirical proof of that. Rāmeśvara: But I have already explained that these senses are not the perfect instruments for experiencing reality. Just like sometimes there may be a cloud, and therefore you cannot see the sun with your senses, but that does not mean the sun is not there. It simply means your senses are not powerful enough to see. The senses are imperfect instruments for perceiving reality. The sun is always there, but sometimes you can see it and sometimes you can't. Prabhupāda: Just like night, this is night, you don't see the sun. That does not mean there is no sun. Rāmeśvara: Don't rely on empirical sense perception. Richard: Okay, right, you're introducing here though, the essence of all religion, and that is faith. Faith... Prabhupāda: It's not faith, it is fact. If I say that there is sun and you cannot see, if you deny, "No I don't see. There is no sun," so which is fact? Richard: Well there is no sun now. There's no sun present. Prabhupāda: Sun is there. You cannot see. Richard: Right now, the sun, in my life, is not present. Prabhupāda: It is present, that is ignorance. You just phone immediately to Bombay, "Is there sun?" He'll say, "Yes." Richard: Is the sun out in Bombay? Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard: I have faith that it is. Prabhupāda: No faith, it is fact. Richard: It is a fact, not to me though. Prabhupāda: No, then you are not very intelligent. You phone your friend that "Where is the sun?" He'll say "It is above my head." Richard: Right now, the sun is not above my head. Prabhupāda: Not your head, but you phone to your friend in Bombay, he'll say "Yes, here is sun." But that does not mean you believe in the sun existing. That's not fact. Richard: No, that's not what I'm talking about. You asked me whether the sun was above my head now, and I said no it is not, but that does not mean... Prabhupāda: Head or not head, sun is there, but you cannot see. That is the point. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda is explaining the existence of the sun is not dependent upon your perceiving it through your senses. The sun is always there, but sometimes you perceive it and sometimes you don't. Prabhupāda: You don't perceive. That is your position. Richard: Right. That is because I am physically limited by my body. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the point. That is the point. Richard: But I still don't see that as an affirmation nor as a denial. Prabhupāda: Therefore this verse is explained to you, sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyaṁ grāhyam [Bg. 6.21]. So we have to understand through supersenses, not this blunt senses. Richard: Right, and I think... Prabhupāda: These are imperfect. Richard: And I think that in the Western world, I don't know about the Eastern world, in the Western world, that understanding is called faith. Rāmeśvara: No, what Prabhupāda is explaining is.... Just like now you are seeing me through your blunt senses. By the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you awaken a different type of senses, called transcendental senses, and it is just as real as the blunt sense perception, except it is perfect sense perception, whereas your physical senses are conditioned, limited. There are transcendental senses. Richard: Yes, but all the input goes into the mind, right? Rāmeśvara: No, these are actual sense perceptions. "The soul is sentient, thou has proved." Richard: Okay. Rāmeśvara: Just like your body has senses, the soul also has senses, and the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and taking the spiritual prasādam, seeing the Deity in the temple and hearing this Vedic knowledge, that awakens the soul, and thus you can experience the sense perception of the soul, the knowledge of God through the soul, sense perception. You can see God, when you're very pure. And that's a fact, not faith. Prabhupāda: There are five stages of ascending to come to the right conclusion. This, this is.... Just like pratyakṣa, directly, you do not see the sun on the sky, but the same example, if you phone your friend, "Where is the sun?" then he'll say, "Yes, here is the sun." So this is called parokṣa, mean you get the knowledge by other sources. Your direct sources, you cannot see, but you get from other sources, you understand, "Yes, sun is there in the sky." Richard: And I have faith that it is. Prabhupāda: You must have faith. Richard: I trust that it is. Prabhupāda: You have to trust. Richard: Okay, I was listening to him and, you know, I'm hearing a lot, okay, the brain... Prabhupāda: I mean to say, there are five stages, pratyakṣa, parokṣa, aparokṣa, adhokṣaja and aprākṛta. So our process should be to go to the aprākṛta, transcendental knowledge. This is the stages. Just like.... This is explained. We can directly understand that by directly, I'm seeing there is no sun, but when I ask my friend, he says there is sun. So this is also knowledge. This is called parokṣa knowledge, from other sources. Similarly, there are stages. So when the perfect stage is, that is aprākṛta, no more material, all spiritual. Richard: Okay. The brain, the mind, interprets the senses... Prabhupāda: Well, the brain, mind, they are instruments. Richard: Okay, they interpret the senses. Right. Okay. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are instruments. Richard: Now if the... Prabhupāda: Suppose if you see with your eyes, and then you see with microscope, then you see with telescope, different processes. Yes. But you see with your spiritual eyes, that is perfect. Richard: Now suppose the brain dies, as in the case... Prabhupāda: Brain dies.... Brain is part of the body. Richard: Right, it's a part of the body. It can fail just as the heart or the lungs or anything else. Now suppose the brain dies, the soul... Prabhupāda: You get another brain. Richard: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: You get another brain. Suppose, just like you are working with the glass, spectacle, it breaks, you get another spectacle. That's all. Richard: In the same body? Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard: Okay, now Karen Ann Quinlan, you know her? Prabhupāda: We don't know anyone. Richard: Okay, this is a, let me explain very briefly. Here is a girl in New Jersey, near New York, whose brain has died through a traffic accident. Her body is still alive. Her body is still alive, but her brain is dead, she cannot get up, speak, move. Prabhupāda: This is already explained, the brain is an instrument. The instrument is not working, but that is not death. Richard: Right, her soul is still alive, is that correct? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Richard: Her soul is still alive, and she is still functioning spiritually, even though her brain is dead. Is that what...? Prabhupāda: That is possible because soul is there. Rāmeśvara: The soul is always alive, but the fact that she's being maintained means the soul's still in that body, has not left the body yet. Richard: Okay, now what... Rāmeśvara: The soul is always living. Richard: Okay, now what is.... Is the soul in a... Prabhupāda: That is another proof. That instead of, in spite of the brain is not working, the soul is there. Richard: Okay, but just let me finish this, and then we'll leave it. The.... Okay, how am I going to say this? Is her spiritual, is her spirit in a less active state from when her brain was alive? Prabhupāda: Spirit is always active. Richard: It's always active at the same level? Prabhupāda: Not same level, because you are understanding the spirit through the body. So body is changing. Just like the soul, when he's in the boy's body, it is talking so many nonsense things. But you don't take it seriously. But when you are grown up, if you talk such nonsense things, then you'll be taken as a nonsense, because the body has changed. Richard: Okay, what I was leading up to was, her brain is dead, she has no... Prabhupāda: Not dead, it is not working. Richard: It's not working, okay. It's not working. She's getting no sensory input. She's not aware of the physical surroundings, and yet you maintain that her soul is still alive and still very active. Now would her state, her physical state, enhance the soul's activity or detract from...? Prabhupāda: It has nothing to do with it. Richard: It has nothing to do with it. Okay, would it matter to you whether they did turn off her life supporting apparatus? Would that make any difference? Rāmeśvara: No, it wouldn't. Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There are machines that are maintaining her life. Rāmeśvara: Just like a person in a car, the car engine may fail and the person may get out of the car or he may linger in the car. The car is just a machine. So the soul is lingering in her body. Even though it is... Richard: But it's still very active. Rāmeśvara: Yes, just like if my car breaks down, that does not mean I have broken down. I'm the passenger. Richard: Can't she be in touch with her soul in a coma? Hari-śauri: She is soul. Devotee: She is soul. Hari-śauri: That personality, that is the soul. *Rāmeśvara: No, when the machine, when the conscious, when the body is broken like that, she cannot become self*-realized. Rādhāvallabha: She's active on the mental platform. Prabhupāda: She's covered with the body, but she's different from the body. Just like you are covered by your dress, but you are different from the dress. Richard: Okay. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Richard: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Jaya. You are very intelligent boy. (laughs) Richard: I don't know what good that does me. Prabhupāda: They are very good questions. Rāmeśvara: You are very merciful, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Richard: You are very patient, I'll tell you. (laughs) Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Richard: Thank you. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...even they don't associate temple this and that. Hari-śauri: That boy has some intelligence, it's just a, (laughs) he has to be guided a little bit. Prabhupāda: Guidance required. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 11, 1976, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: The prisoners.... Haridāsa Ṭhākura was very well known, so all of them assembled and offered him respect. Haridāsa Ṭhākura blessed them, "Stay in this condition." (laughs) So they were surprised, that "We offered respect, and the blessing is that 'Stay in this....' " Then they were explained, " 'Stay in this condition' means your attitude to offer respect to a Vaiṣṇava." That was the intent, not that "You stay in the prison house." Viṣṇu, Vaiṣṇava, offering respect.... [break] ...ārādhanam. When Pārvatī inquired from Lord Śiva what is the best form of worship, he advised, viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param: "Oh, to worship Lord Viṣṇu is the best form of..." Then he said, tasmāt parataraṁ devi tadīyānāṁ samarcanam: "And greater than viṣṇor ārādhana, Viṣṇu worship, is to worship tadīyānām, anything in connection with Viṣṇu." Anything.... That is Vaiṣṇava. Just like we are worshiping tulasī, tulasī plant. Why tulasī plant? It is a plant only, not even human being. Tadīyānām. Because tulasī is liked by Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, anything in connection with Viṣṇu, to worship, that is better than Viṣṇu worship. Kīrtanānanda: King Pratāparudra, he got the clothes of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Prabhupāda: Hm? Kīrtanānanda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu sent some cloth to King Pratāparudra, and he worshiped it just like Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Hari-śauri: Oh, I've got a handkerchief here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param.... (japa) [break] ...philosophy is very, very difficult, undoubtedly. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Therefore I wrote that poetry, that "How they'll understand?" Kīrtanānanda: Does that mean difficult to understand or difficult to practice? *Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to.... Sarva*-dharmān-everything to give up, except Kṛṣṇa. It is very difficult. Sarva-dharmān. They are proud if they are little rich. And America is very proud. They are trying to accumulate money, and we are trying.... We say, "Give up this nonsense." Is it very easy thing, that "For Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we shall give up everything, our attempt to earn money"? Nobody will accept it. "Our industry, our trade, our opulence-everything we shall leave?" But the meaning is that. Yes. Who will take it? Jñānīs, yogis, the same thing-"Oh, I am so.... I am great yogi. So many people considers me that I am God, and I shall give up this profession?" Is it possible? Who will do it? Caitanya-caritāmṛta there is a verse, eta saba chāḍi' āra varṇāśrama-dharma, akiñcana hañā...(?) That's it. Varṇāśrama, even varṇāśrama-dharma one has to give up. (japa-break) ...department asked me, "Swamiji, how long you want to stay here?" (laughs) I said.... I thought that "I have got this sponsoring one month, maybe another month. So two months." I thought, "Two months is a very long duration, because I'll not be able to do anything. As soon as I will put my program, they will be: 'Go away, please.' " I was under this impression. "Let me try." That is the subject matter of the poetry, that "I have no hope. Who will accept this, especially in this country, so much engrossed in materialistic way of life? And I shall say, 'Give up everything.' Who will take it?" Kīrtanānanda: But they have taken. Prabhupāda: And that is Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: That's also in the poem. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: That it is Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: ...the supreme mystic. Prabhupāda: Supreme mystic.... "If You like, it is possible; otherwise not possible. From calculation it is impossible." That is the subject matter. Kīrtanānanda: But nobody before you even tried. *Prabhupāda: They came for some money or some reputation or "England*-returned." The Bon Mahārāja, this Vivekananda, and all, all these rascals who are coming, that's all. They come for some money and woman, some prestigious position, the material things. For prestigious position, for money, for women, means it is all material. They have no spiritual idea. Rāmeśvara: This Reverend Moon, he has started a very big movement among Christians. His philosophy is that the mission of Jesus Christ was to have sex life so that there will be perfect children. Prabhupāda: Just see what nonsense he is. Rāmeśvara: And they crucified him before he was married. Prabhupāda: Even Christ.... Eh? Rāmeśvara: His philosophy is that Jesus Christ was crucified before he got himself married and had some children-"Therefore I am Jesus Christ again, coming to make children. I am the new Messiaḥ." Prabhupāda: This rascal is.... And foolish persons are accepting him. How.... No, they are doing that. They are sanctioning homosex, sanctioning abortion. They've lost, Christianity and all.... (japa) This is Beverly Hills? No. Rancho Park. Rāmeśvara: This is nearby. [break] Today, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the biggest magazine in the West United States is coming to try to get your interview at 10 o'clock, 10:30 this morning, something like that. It's called Los Angeles Magazine. It's for the West United States. Prabhupāda: [break] And if we don't believe that they have gone to moon planet, they will reject us. They will immediately take as "Oh, these people are crazy." Even if you give sufficient reason or argument, they will not take it. That is their obstinacy. Rāmeśvara: They're convinced by the photographs. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: They have some photographs of the men in the spacesuits walking around on that other planet. Kīrtanānanda: But they are convinced because the scientists have told them. They believe the scientists. They have faith, and the scientists can tell them anything, and they'll believe it. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is.... That is the disease. Kīrtanānanda: They have put faith. Everyone has faith. You cannot live without having faith in somebody. So they put their faith in the scientists, and we are saying it is wrong. Hari-śauri: Nobody could possibly believe that the scientists would cheat them. They think they are very intelligent, honest men. *Prabhupāda: No, we have got our faith-in Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, they have got their faith*-in scientists. Hari-śauri: That article in the last BTG.... Sadāputa, he said, "So what it boils down to is they are putting their faith in chance, and we are putting our faith in God." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is statement of the scientists. Ādau śraddhā: in everything, faith is the beginning. Ādau śraddhā. Without faith you cannot make any progress. [break] ...reporter, in 1970, he saw me. I told, "This is all simply childish." He remembers that. Is it not? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is after eight years. Actually it is proved, and still, they.... [break] What is this dome? Rāmeśvara: [break] ...street has more banks than any other street in America, Wilshire Boulevard. Everywhere, banks everywhere. [break] Prabhupāda: Wilshire, yes. I remember.... There is a park. Soldiers, there are soldiers in a corner. I used to come to that park. [break] ...this rich.... [break] ...is the costlier quarter in America. [break] ...he's got a house here. Hari-śauri: George Harrison? Rāmeśvara: Yes, also Ravi Shankar. Prabhupāda: He has got a house? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ravi Shankar has become so rich? [break] ...ago some portion of Calcutta was like this, such greens and houses like that, not very big house. (japa) Hari-śauri: It's certainly a very opulent area. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are opulent with dogs also. As soon as you walk on the street, so many dogs will bark. (japa) [break] ...park. Rāmeśvara: [break] People who live here, whole two blocks... Prabhupāda: Private house. Rāmeśvara: This is a richer district. Hari-śauri: There's a big sign on the gate. It says, "No Trespassing." [break] Prabhupāda: ...patrolling here always to stop trespassing. Rāmeśvara: Always living in fear. *Prabhupāda: Sadā samudvijña*-dhiyam asad-grahāt. As soon as you accept material things as everything, immediately bhaya. Āhāra nidrā maithuna bhaya. (japa) [break] ...country, they'll not allow any individual person to live so comfortably. No, illegal. If you have got money, then give it to the government. The ministers will enjoy it. This is democracy. Democracy means "Somehow or other, I capture the government, and whatever money you have got, I snatch it from you, and then I enjoy." This is democracy. Dasyu-dharma. In Bhāgavata it is said dasyu-dharma, the business of the rogues. How is that? If I can earn some money and keep it for myself, I have no right? This is communistic idea: "Make everyone poor." Here is police, two cars. Police we saw. Hari-śauri: They can't raise the standard up, so they bring it all down. Rāmeśvara: That's their idea of equality. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: That's their idea of equality. All men are equal, so no one should have more money. Hari-śauri: Make everyone a śūdra. *Rāmeśvara: That's what you wrote in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, that communism is a movement of śūdras. Prabhupāda: Yes, they're śūdras. Hari-śauri: There's a very popular slogan now in Australia. Prabhupāda: Equality. Hari-śauri: No, "Make the rich pay." Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: They are so much envious of those persons with more money. Prabhupāda: India also, that.... "Make the rich pay." Hari-śauri: In England also that's the prevalent theme now. That has accounted for the demolishing of the aristocracy in England more than anything, the government heavily taxing them so that anyone with money now is... Prabhupāda: It is finished. In England aristocracy is finished. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: They're all selling their property. They cannot maintain. Even the Queen cannot maintain her establishment, but because it's government.... The Buckingham Palace was not repaired for many years. Last time, when I went there, I saw it is repaired now. Before that, three, four times I went. It is blackish. The stone.... It is made of stone. The stone had become black. That means many years it was not repaired. Hari-śauri: What they do now if they have some big house in the country and they want to keep it, they have to put it on show during the summer months. They allow people to come, and they charge them so much money to come and look around. Prabhupāda: The Parliament and that.... What is that church? Hari-śauri: Westminster Abbey? Prabhupāda: Yes. They charge. Hari-śauri: Guided tour. They cannot live there themselves. They can only live there in the winter. Prabhupāda: They collect very sufficiently. I have seen. Again, inside you go, and a particular section, if you want to see, the another payment. Yes. First of all, entrance fee; then, within that, if you want to see another particular section, then another fee. And they are collecting money. I have seen. Śyāmasundara took me there. Hari-śauri: To Westminster Abbey or...? Prabhupāda: Parliament, Westminster, everything.... (japa) They are now statues in Parliament and Westminster. So many statues, you know. Hari-śauri: Yes. They're very fond of statues there. Prabhupāda: [break] ...European civilization, coming from the Romans, statues also. [break] ...mean civilization means Roman civilization, is it not? Hari-śauri: Yes. The Roman Empire extended all over there. Prabhupāda: England was under Roman Empire. Normandy. Normandy? Kīrtanānanda: That's France. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...these gardener, they're engaged here. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: He comes a certain period and looks after the garden. (japa) [break] ...are very famous gardener. Unfortunately, in Japan there is no space to make garden. Kīrtanānanda: They do everything in miniature. *Prabhupāda: Everything. They have got so much intellect, technologists, everything*-no land. Kīrtanānanda: In material life there is always one thing lacking. *Prabhupāda: sat*-saṅga chāḍi' kāinu, asate vilāsa, te-kāraṇe lāgila mora, karma-bandha-phāṅsa: "I have given up reality, and I'm attached to unreality; *therefore I am entangled in fruitive activities." Te*-kāraṇe lāgila mora, karma-bandha-phāṅsa. (japa) [break] Rāmeśvara: Actually, on Watseka Avenue we own more property than anyone here in Beverly Hills. Prabhupāda: Hm? Rāmeśvara: On Watseka Avenue, we have the temple and maybe seven other buildings, so we own more property and buildings than anyone here in Beverly Hills. *Prabhupāda: They have only one house*-with great difficulty. Rāmeśvara: We have the whole block. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] There is law, income tax, supertax, welfare to the..., so many taxes? No, only income tax. Kīrtanānanda: No, there are many taxes. Sales tax... Prabhupāda: Sales tax is there. But in India that..., at a stage, the whole amount is taxed. Kīrtanānanda: There's an estate tax, an inheritance tax... *Prabhupāda: No, no, mean at a stage.... This much, this much, this much.... And at a.... There is a stage*-ninety-five percent government's. You keep only five percent. Rāmeśvara: In India? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: They even tax you when you die. Prabhupāda: Here? Hari-śauri: In England when someone dies, a rich man, he loses practically half his property and money and everything... Rāmeśvara: Fifty percent. Hari-śauri: ...just in what they call death duties. When you die, they take all your money away from you. Rāmeśvara: That's in America also. If your father dies and he leaves you his wealth, the government will take half of it. You have written in the Fourth Canto that because the government is so expert in taxing, the people are becoming so expert in cheating the government... Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: ...to avoid the taxes. So the government is simply training the people how to cheat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: And then you wrote that one day the people will..., the taxes will become so great that the people will revolt, refuse to pay, and then the government will be finished. There will be chaos. You're giving all these warnings, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You've also warned them about taking the oil from the earth. *Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. I think of these things. No, there is analogy, just like when you fly in the sky, you take sufficient petrol in the wings, sufficient, so many thousands of gallons. And if there is no petrol, then you'll fall down. So I theorize these things, (laughs) that these planets are floating in the air on account of petrol. If you finish the petrol stock, then we drop. Analogy. Indirectly, my desire is that "Why you are wasting your time in this way? Your life is short here. Then utilize it for self*-realization. What is the use of this civilization, civilization that for artificial necessities of life you waste your whole duration of life and next life you become a cat or dog? Suppose you are successful in this life manufacturing these big, big skyscrapers. Next life, if you become a cockroach in the same house, toilet room.... There is possibility." Kṛṣṇa..., tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. You have to change your body, and there is no guarantee that you'll have to change in this type of body. Any body. The cockroach is also a body. Therefore they don't believe in the next life. Rāmeśvara: You said they have developed so many different weapons, so they must use them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: They will not waste their time making nuclear bombs and so on without using them. Prabhupāda: That means it is ordained by God that "You have manufactured this, and use it for your destruction." That is nature's way. Film companies, these are? Hari-śauri: Twentieth Century Fox. It is a very well known film company. Rāmeśvara: Movie company. This is that park where we sometimes go. When they have this war it will reduce everything, just finish off all the industries and factories. So everything will be reduced to a primitive stage. Prabhupāda: No, they will again repair. Rāmeśvara: Again rebuild everything. Prabhupāda: In Germany.... Just like Germany was finished. The American planes bombed in such a way that Germany was finished, very heavily bombed. One lady in Hamburg, she was showing me one wall, big wall building dismantled, and it has become black on account of bombing. She was showing me how far injustice they have been done. Rāmeśvara: So then after the war, nothing will change. System of government, the industries, everything will just be rebuilt. *Prabhupāda: They'll try at least. Just like after the Second World War, Germany or England finished. They could not recoup. They are now poverty*-stricken. Rāmeśvara: Germany? *Prabhupāda: Germany is little recouped, but England is finished. Therefore I say India got independence not due to Gandhi. It is due to Hitler. That is my opinion. I have got reason. The Hitler fighting with England made them smashed, so their political power became nil almost, and on this opportunity, Hitler helped Subash Chandra Bose, one of the leaders of India, to organize Indian National Army. This Indian National Army, when attacked, at least made a show of attack from Imphala(?), especially on Calcutta dropped bombs, and the whole Calcutta became vacant. Perhaps myself and a few others remained. I sent my sons.... Of course, daughter was married, but they sent to Navadvīpa, Śrīdhara Mahārāja's āśrama. My wife refused to go out of Calcutta. She said, "I'll be bombed maybe, but I'll not go out." (laughs) So I had to remain in Calcutta. So I've seen bombing and Calcutta all vacant. And one day I was eating in the evening, at night*-immediately bombing. Kachori... I was hungry, (laughs) but the eating finished. Hari-śauri: It was bombed frequently, or just once or twice? *Prabhupāda: Almost daily. But it was meant for bombing the European quarters. So when the Britishers saw that "Now this Subash Bose has organized I.N.A...." I.N.A. was organized by Subash Chandra Bose. Outside India, all the Indians, they contributed money, especially from Singapore. Singapore, Hong Kong, this side..., all the Indians, they contribute sufficiently. And he got men from the fighting Indians soldiers. The Britishers, they were fighting with Indian soldiers, with Germany and Japan and others. So the contract with Hitler and Subash Bose was this, that "All the Indian soldiers which you arrest in the war, please give me them. Then I shall organize." So the soldiers, when they understood they're being arrested-"We shall go to Indian side"*-they voluntarily surrendered. So Hitler, all others, Hitler and Japan, Tojo, arrest them and give it to Subash Chandra Bose, and he was organizing in Singapore. Hari-śauri: He had a large army? Prabhupāda: Large or small, whatever; *there was. But England had no soldiers. Whatever they did-fight-with the Indian soldiers, Gurkha and Sikh. Indian money, Indian soldiers, everything Indian*-they were fighting. So when the Britishers saw that "The nationalism has come amongst the soldiers. It is not possible to maintain the Empire," they voluntarily gave indepen.... "Better give us good relations, and our business.... Make some agreement. But before departing, make them weak and divide Pakistan and India." Rāmeśvara: That the British arranged. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are doing these things all in.... Wales.... What is called? Ireland, Germany. That is their business: divide and rule. Before leaving India, immediately they partitioned. Burma was Indian. Ceylon was Indian. So they had already divided. Hari-śauri: Made them all into separate states. Prabhupāda: Yes. (japa) Now England is finished. There are aristocrat type statues now rolling on the ground. Who takes care? Their, their Lennon? Lennon, John Lennon and George Harrison, they are purchasing big, big palaces. (japa) Hari-śauri: All the aristocracy, they just go out to work like anyone else. Prabhupāda: The lords are roaming on the street. I have seen many lords. They're ordinary.... Even they haven't got car. The Queen also, just like ordinary, common man. Royal family. Rāmeśvara: One day America will be poor like that also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Luxury leads to poverty. When the American becomes too much luxurious, they'll not be able to defend their country. Then it will be finished. Rāmeśvara: That is the fear even now, that America has lost their fighting spirit against the Communists. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Yes. Vietnam. It is proof. When the Vietnam is attacked, American soldiers, they began to fly, flee away, became afraid. Naturally. They were not soldiers. They have no fighting spirit. By force they have been made soldiers. Let them take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. America will be saved. (japa) Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said yesterday, or a few days ago, that this movement will go on unimpeded for ten thousand years, so... Prabhupāda: Yes, provided we keep it uncontaminated. You should take this opportunity. Rāmeśvara: So after ten years we have gotten so many devotees and so many houses, so I can't imagine how big this movement will be after ten thousand years. Prabhupāda: Yes. You'll get the government. Rāmeśvara: The whole world will be delivered? Prabhupāda: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. America will be the best; *people will follow. They are already following*-skyscraper building, that's all. Any nation in the world, they are all aspiring to have skyscraper buildings. India has done? In Bombay? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Full of skyscraper buildings. Now they are thinking this is opulence, skyscraper building. When you are giving it up, no more skyscraper building, the others are imitating. Just like in this quarter you cannot construct skyscraper building. They don't want it. Now others are imitating: "Let us have skyscraper building like America." (japa) Rāmeśvara: This building is only two stories, even though it has three windows. Prabhupāda: No, no, why two story? There is ground floor, first floor, second floor, third floor. Rāmeśvara: One of the floors has two windows, top and bottom. But it's just one floor. Someone went inside and looked. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, that is not floor. There is no ceiling. Rāmeśvara: No, just three steps up. Prabhupāda: Anyway... *Rāmeśvara: All the instructions for the future*-like you said that one day even we will have the government-how to run the government, everything is explained in your books. Prabhupāda: Yes. I think like that. (laughs) Is there mention, "The slaughterhouse must stopped"? Rāmeśvara: You've given all the major policies for the future government, Kṛṣṇa consciousness government. Prabhupāda: Let us hope. (end) *Interview with Jackie Vaughn(Black Congressman)-*-July 12, 1976, Detroit Lekhaśravantī (Walter Reuther's daughter): This is Jackie Vaughn. He's a member of the House of Representatives of Michigan. He's come to speak to you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Lekhaśravantī: He came also last year. He's very impressed by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is black and we worship Him. (laughter) You have seen our Deity? Yes. Kṛṣṇa is from your community. (Prabhupāda laughs) There is no question of black and white. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above the skin*-the soul which is there. Either he's black or white or yellow, it doesn't matter. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. This is the first education, that do not take the body, but the living force within the body. That is important; we have to understand that. We are talking from that platform. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult, because people are very much absorbed with bodily concept of life. But our philosophy begins from that platform where there is no more bodily concept of life. Therefore it is little difficult. (pause) So any question also? Śrutakīrti: You've been reading from Prabhupāda's books? Jackie Vaughn: Yes. I continue to search. Śrutakīrti: If you have any questions you can ask him. *Jackie Vaughn: The last time I was here you were kind enough to address to the basic point*-we're in the world and yet how can we not be a part of the world. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: He says we're in the world, but how can we be aloof from it? How can we not be a part of it? *Prabhupāda: It is knowledge. Just like we are moving with this body, but still we know perfectly well that we are not this body. Just like you may move in your car, but you are perfectly aware that you are not the car. When you drive on your car, do you not know that you are not the car, car is different from you? Huh? Don't you know that? Similarly, by cultivation of knowledge one can remain in the car and still he can know that he is not the car. The example is given, just like coconut. Coconut, within the shell, green shell, there is coconut. And when it is dry, if you move you'll understand that the coconut is now separate-(makes sound:) cut*-cut-cut-cut-at that time it is taken away for extracting oil. So this is practical. In the beginning, green coconut. And when you can perceive that there is coconut within the shell and it can be separated, but at a time it can be known that the coconut is separated from the shell. And if you move it, it will make-cut-cut-cut. That is the process. It is by action. When after hearing theoretical, that you are separate from this body, if you cultivate that knowledge, then time will come when you'll perceive practically that we are not this body. That means in higher stage of spiritual consciousness the bodily activities, material bodily activities will stop. Only Kṛṣṇa activities will go on. So that, just like the coconut fruit is separate from the shell, similarly, even living within this body, he will be separated from the body. Jīvan mukta sa ucyate. The Sanskrit word is he's liberated even in this life while living in this body. That requires cultivation of the knowledge and practical activities. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not all of a sudden, but there is stage when it will be experienced that he is not this body, he is separate from the body. Jackie Vaughn: My work, I try to do more for people, especially poor people. Prabhupāda: Everyone tries. That is not a particular job for you. Everyone is trying; *the cats and dogs, they are also trying. The cat also very much anxious to give protection to the cubs, innocent, helpless. The dog also giving. The birds, they're bringing food for the offspring, and as soon as the mother comes, they become very much engladdened, "Oh, here is food, here is food." And they, with the mouth, they.... So this kind of sentiment is there even in the cats, dogs, animals, birds, beasts. That is natural. But we do not know how to do actual welfare activity. Somebody's engaged with his family. Somebody is engaged with his own body. Somebody.... This is only development of consciousness. The animals, they are interested with the body, himself. The human being, they are interested with the extension of the body. Just like I am alone now. Now when I become, you young men, then I have got my wife, then my interest is also for my wife. The wife's interest is for the husband. In this way, children, then interest extended, husband, wife, children. Then, this is family*-wise. Then little advancement, of the society. Little advancement, community. Just like in your country, the sense of black community, white community. Then, above that, for the nation. When there is war between America and other nation, then you black and white people forget the small interest for national interest. You advance to fight, to lay down your life. So in this way we can make progress, but such progress is not perfection. Such progress is not perfection. The example is given, just like there is tree, and the whole tree is full of branches, twigs and leaves and flowers and fruits. So somebody is watering the fruit, somebody is watering the leaf, somebody is watering the branches, somebody the twigs, but everyone is improper. One who is watering the root, he's perfect. He knows how to do things. If you water the root of the tree, it will go to the twigs, it will go to the leaves, it will go to the fruit, it will go to the flower. One who does not know the root, however he might be working very diligently for the poor humanity or community or society, they will never be successful to gain the result, peace and prosperity. They are forgetting the root. And root is God. So they must put water in the root. Then it will be all right. Otherwise, it will be all failure. The history of the world is like that. They are trying for the nation, for the society, for the community, and for the family, but everything has become unsuccessful. Jackie Vaughn: I suppose we could use the same analogy for black and white getting together. Ofttimes, we all become impatient because of the progress appears to be so very, very slow. Prabhupāda: Slow, but sure, that is wanted. If you are slow, it is not bad, but it must be sure. But if you become very busy without any surety, then what is this? Simply waste of time. Slow, there is English word, "Slow but sure." Jackie Vaughn: Slow but sure. Prabhupāda: Sure. So what we are proposing, that is sure success. And all other things, they are very busy but no success. This is the difference. So what is the use of that business if you are going to be failure? So we see from the history these attempts have always been failure. Now this man who constructed this house, he never thought that I shall come here to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So his attempt is failure. Jackie Vaughn: Neither did he envision I would come here to hear you. Prabhupāda: (laughs) So these small affairs, they'll be failure. Whatever they are busy now in the material world, everything will be failure. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if you execute a little bit of it, it can save you from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. (to devotee:) Find out this verse. Hari-śauri: "In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear." Prabhupāda: Purport. Hari-śauri: Purport: "Activity in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or acting for the benefit of Kṛṣṇa without expectation of sense gratification, is the highest transcendental quality of work. Even a small beginning of such activity finds no impediment, nor can that small beginning be lost at any stage. Any work begun on the material plane has to be completed, otherwise the whole attempt becomes a failure. But any work begun in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has a permanent effect, even though not finished. The performer of such work is therefore not at a loss even if his work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is incomplete. One percent done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness bears permanent results, so that the next beginning is from the point of two percent; *, whereas, in material activity, without one*-hundred-percent success, there is no profit. Ajāmila performed his duty in some percentage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but the result he enjoyed at the end was one hundred percent, by the grace of the Lord. There is a nice verse in this connection in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: 'If someone gives up self-gratificatory pursuits and works in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part? And, what can one gain if one performs his material activities perfectly?' (SB 1.5.17) Or, as the Christians say, 'What profiteth a man if he gain the whole world yet suffers the loss of his eternal soul?' Material activities and their results end with the body. But work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness carries the person again to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even after the loss of the body. At least one is sure to have a chance in the next life of being born again as a human being, either in the family of a great cultured brāhmaṇa or in a rich aristocratic family, that will give one a further chance for elevation. That is the unique quality of work done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." *Prabhupāda: So everyone should join this movement and be sure of his activity, result, good result. That is real United Nations*-to work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Every, any department, if we work for Kṛṣṇa, then it is perfect. That is sure. And it is open to everyone. Now this American government is giving so much welfare contribution, but still they are not happy. Huge amount is spent in welfare activities, but still they are dissatisfied. Then how you can make them satisfied? The American government is practically giving money to the sufferers, and why they are still suffering? What is the answer? Jackie Vaughn: It's not clear. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda is saying that even though the American government is giving so much money to suffering people, still the suffering is there, there's no improvement in the condition. So why, what is the cause? What is the answer? Jackie Vaughn: I think it's all in the theory. We are not making first things first. Prabhupāda: That means whatever we do, we do in ignorance. You do not know what is the first thing or what to do first. That we are correcting. Here is the first thing. Pour water in the root. Jackie Vaughn: Right. *Prabhupāda: We are correcting*-Kṛṣṇa, or God, then everything will be all right. Otherwise failure. Now you American people you write, "In God We Trust." But if I ask you "What is God?" you cannot reply. Then how do you trust in God? Blindly. If we trust in God, we must know that God is actually the only trustworthy person. Then if I put my trust in Him, that is sensible. But if I do not know what is God, no idea, and if we simply write, "In God We Trust," what is this? This is slogan. But actually people are becoming godless. In schools, colleges, they are prohibiting, "Don't talk of God." Do they not? Jayatīrtha: That's a fact. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And in the bills they are writing the.... Why this hypocrisy? Why this hypocrisy? In the schools, colleges, you are forbidding, "Don't talk of God," and on the bills you are writing, "In God We Trust." That means if the bill is not paid, don't be dissatisfied, you trust in God. (laughs) Although I'm giving you a piece of paper, don't hesitate to take it. Trust in God, it will be paid. They write, "I promise to pay," but people may not have faith in this word. Actually, I'm paying you hundred rupees*-or a thousand rupees-worth currency note, but actually it is paper. But only on faith and trust I'm accepting it, it is one thousand dollars. That much. In last war, the Germany, marks note were thrown in the street. And the bunch of note, taken to the confectioner, "Give me a piece of bread," There is no bread; they throw away. It happened, actually. So these notes are accepted on the understanding that the government will pay. But time may be there when government may be not able to pay. And it has become practically experienced in the last war. So everything should be done scientifically. If we say that in God we trust, then we must know what is God, whether actually we can put our faith and trust in Him, whether He is trustworthy, what is that God. This science should be introduced. There is science; we are preaching that science. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to teach Kṛṣṇa science, science of Kṛṣṇa, science of God. So the government should take up, American government, and cooperate with us. Teach the people the science of God. Then it will be a great, benevolent welfare activity. Simply giving their money to the poor, to the needy, will not help them. Jackie Vaughn: That's an immediate need, and... Prabhupāda: Immediate, you can think like that, but there is no benefit, immediate or belated. There is no actual benefit. The unmarried girls are given this welfare, what is called? Jackie Vaughn: Welfare. Prabhupāda: But still they are killing their children. Becoming more and more involved in sinful activities. Jackie Vaughn: As a lawmaker, I would like to change that whole, what we call, vicious cycle. *Prabhupāda: You can change, but if you do not change for the real good, then time will come, another change, another change. That is going on. Just like in Russia they wanted to change. They brought in revolution. But what is changed? They are still begging grains from America. So what is the use of that change? If you have to beg from other country for your food, then what is the benefit of such change? So this is going on. One thing established, and again it is changed. That is described in the śāstra: punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Chewing the chewed. Just like sugarcane. One has taken the juice by chewing and thrown it in the street, and somebody again takes it and chew it, what he will get it? It is already chewed. Experiment. So all, everything has been experimented. Big, big empires, big, big society, big, big nation. That Hitler, he wanted to make something big. Napoleon wanted to make something big. Nothing big has been done. Where is Napoleon? Where is Hitler? So these are all temporary attempts. It is sure to be failure. Because they do not know how to do things. That is the defect. They are simply imagining, concoction. Here is a practical and sure proposal in the Bhagavad-gītā. God comes and He's giving personal instruction, that "Do things like this." Your economic problem, your political problem, your social problem, everything.... You ask any question, any problem, the answer is there, perfect. All problems. Why people should not take this perfect answer to all problems? That is intelligence. Experiment we have made so many materially. They have all failed. We were under British rule. So where is that British rule now? And before that, there was Roman Empire, Carthagian Empire, Egyptian Empire, so many, Mogul Empire, then British Empire, now your American Empire. But these things will not help. Jackie Vaughn: Every one of our presidential candidates is continuing to talk in the same vein, promising and promising all of a temporary nature of solution to our problems. Prabhupāda: No. Solution is here, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You take this movement after studying it scrutinizingly. You'll find: "Yes, this is the only movement for solution of all problems." Jackie Vaughn: I think we go back to what you said at the beginning. We trust primarily in the dollar, "In God We Trust." Prabhupāda: That is only slogan. Jackie Vaughn: Yeah, right. Prabhupāda: But if we trust somebody when we know: "Yes, he is trustworthy," that is better. Blindly trusting may not endure. But knowingly trust, that will be beneficial. Jackie Vaughn: As a lawmaker for the State of Michigan, every day I'm struggling. I know what you're saying. I would like to. And then my surrounding is what they call much more practical. Prabhupāda: No, it is also practical. We do not propose anything which is impractical. Jackie Vaughn: But it's so... Prabhupāda: What do you think in our movement is impractical? I have given you a practical example that you are paying so much money to the suffering women, especially who have got children but no husband. So, but what is the result? They're not satisfied. They're still committing sinful activities. So the money, giving money, we're giving, is no solution. That is practical. And here, the same girl, I do not give her any money, but by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they're satisfied. It is practical. So therefore people should be enlightened with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then problems will be solved. Otherwise, even you give him some money, that money will be spent and no satisfaction. This is failure. Our monetary problem.... Actually, we have no monetary problem. Kṛṣṇa has given us money. Our expenditure is more than, I think, two hundred thousand dollars daily. Hm? What is our total expenditure, can anyone say? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, with all the constructions, perhaps it's very high. *Prabhupāda: But we are getting money. We have no money, but still we can sit down in such a nice palace. This is practical. So money is not problem. The problem is godlessness. So as soon as there is godlessness, there will be suffering, different types of suffering. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā: Problem, māyā is problem. Hari-śauri: "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Hari-śauri: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead has innumerable energies, and all of these energies are divine. Although the living entities are part of His energies, and are therefore divine, due to contact with material energy their original superior power is covered. Being thus covered by material energy, one cannot possibly overcome its influence. As previously stated, both the material and spiritual natures, being emanations from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are eternal. The living entities belong to the eternal superior nature of the Lord, but due to contamination by the inferior nature, matter, their illusion is also eternal. The conditioned soul is therefore called nitya*-baddha, or eternally conditioned. No one can trace out the history of his becoming conditioned at a certain date in material history. Consequently, his release from the clutches of material nature is very difficult, even though that material nature is an inferior energy, because material energy is ultimately conducted by the Supreme Will, which the living entity cannot overcome. Inferior material nature is defined herein as divine nature due to its divine connection and movement by the divine will. Being conducted by the divine will, material nature, although inferior, acts so wonderfully in the construction and destruction of the cosmic manifestation that the Vedas confirm this as follows: māyāṁ tu prakṛtiṁ vidyān māyinaṁ tu maheśvaram. Although māyā is false and temporary, the background of māyā is the supreme magician, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is Maheśvara, the supreme controller. Another meaning of guṇa is rope. It is to be understood that the conditioned soul is tightly bound by the ropes of illusion. A man bound by the hands and feet cannot free himself. He must be helped by a person who is unbound, because the bound cannot help the bound. The rescuer must be liberated. Therefore only Lord Kṛṣṇa or His bone fide representative the spiritual master can release the conditioned soul. Without such superior help, one cannot be freed from the bondage of material nature. Devotional service, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can help one gain such release. Kṛṣṇa, being the Lord of the illusory energy, can order this insurmountable energy to release the conditioned soul. He orders this release out of His causeless mercy on the surrendered soul, and out of His paternal affection for the living entity, who is originally a beloved son of the Lord. Therefore surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord is the only means to get free from the clutches of the stringent material nature. The words mām eva are also significant. Mām means unto Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, only, and not Brahmā or Śiva. Although Brahmā and Śiva are greatly elevated and are almost on the level of Viṣṇu, it is not possible for such incarnations of rajo-guṇa (passion) and tamo-guṇa (ignorance) to release the conditioned soul from the clutches of māyā. In other words, both Brahmā and Śiva are under the influence of māyā. Only Viṣṇu is the master of māyā. Therefore He alone can give release to the conditioned soul. The Vedas confirm this in the phrase tvam eva viditvā, or 'Freedom is possible only by understanding Kṛṣṇa.' Even Lord Śiva affirms that liberation can be achieved only at the mercy of Viṣṇu. Lord Śiva says, mukti-pradātā sarveṣāṁ viṣṇur eva na saṁśayaḥ: 'There is no doubt that Viṣṇu is the deliverer of liberation for everyone.' " Prabhupāda: The institution is already there. We are conducting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if the government cooperates that a certain number of students must be trained up scientifically what is the meaning of God, that will be very much beneficial to the state or to the country. We can give solution for any problem. "We" means Kṛṣṇa. We are simply preaching Kṛṣṇa's message. Kṛṣṇa means God. Kṛṣṇa means black also. Kṛṣṇa, this word, (chuckles) means black also. He is following? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another meaning of kṛṣṇa is blackish. Jackie Vaughn: Black is beautiful? *Prabhupāda: Why not? He's the most beautiful. Otherwise, why people are attracted? There is a verse in the Brahma*-saṁhitā: kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobham [Bs. 5.30]; *barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda*-sundarāṅgam. He has got one peacock feather on His head and He's blackish, but wonderfully beautiful. These words are used. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya. He's so beautiful that thousands of Cupids cannot be compared with His beauty. Cupid is understood to be the most beautiful person within this universe. You know Cupid? Yes. He enchants by beauty. But Kṛṣṇa's beauty is so great that millions of beauty, kandarpa or Cupid, cannot be compared with Him. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs. 5.30]. It is a question of attraction. It is not a question of black and white. Attraction. So unless Kṛṣṇa is beautiful, why He has got so many millions of devotees? This very word is kandarpa-koṭi. Barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam. His blackness is compared with the black cloud. Asita-ambuda, ambuda means the cloud. The black cloud is full of water. When there is black cloud in the sky, you can be sure that the rain is going to fall down. Not the white cloud. White cloud means no water. Is it not? So you understand this philosophy and add water to the suffering humanity. They are suffering in the burning, blazing fire of material existence. So blazing fire can be extinguished when the water falls from the sky, not by your fire brigade. When there is blazing fire in the forest, it is beyond your control. You cannot get there fire brigade. So these small attempts of fire brigade is useless to extinguish the blazing fire of this material existence. The water must come from the cloud. That is by Kṛṣṇa's grace. You have no control over the cloud. But that water wanted. Not your fire brigade water when there is all around blazing fire. The small fire brigade-(imitates bell) dung-dung-dung-dung-dung. It can vibrate very loudly-dung-dung-dung-"I'm going to, going to," but they'll go when everything finished. That is practical. I have seen in India. There was a fire in a house, and they came late, when the business is finished. And still they're insisting, "We shall pour some water." (laughter) Everyone asked them, that "What is the use of?" "No, this is our system." (laughter) The house is burnt into ashes, and they are looking the formality, "Yes, we must put some water." So that they can write in their books, "Here we attended the fire and we have..." (laughter) This cheating is going on. In every problem, this kind of cheating is going on. Official, that's all. The same example, you ask to the charity taker of welfare activities. The fire is going on, but officially the government satisfied, "Yes, we are pouring water." So what is the use of pouring water if the fire is going on? But officially, that's all. We must see that the purpose is being carried. No. The house is burnt into ashes, but we are satisfied that our fire brigade man has poured some water, that's all. They do not know that they cannot do any benefit to anyone by this imperfect process. If the whole money of the government is given to us, we can show result within six months how it is beneficial. Will the government give us money? (pause) Actually, people do not want to trust in God. That is the real fact. But this writing of slogan is a formal (indistinct). At the present moment, nobody has got any idea of God nor faith in God. What do you think? Hari-śauri: Nobody's got any? Prabhupāda: Idea of God, and what to speak of faith in God, or trust in God. Jackie Vaughn: It's true. Very little faith. "In God We Trust," your original statement. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda wrote one letter to the secretary of the President explaining that you write on your bills "In God We Trust," but who is it that knows about God? So he was asking if it was possible for the government, they could give us some aid and we would educate. We can educate the people. Prabhupāda: No, I did not ask for any aid. Hari-śauri: Oh. If they would... Prabhupāda: You can get the copy. I never asked for any aid. Hari-śauri: No, I didn't mean monetary or anything like that. (pause) Prabhupāda: Read it. *Mādhavānanda: "Personal Secretary to the President, Office of the President of the United States, White House, Washington, D.C. Dear Sir: On your new two*-dollar note it is stated 'In God We Trust' and directly beneath, 'Declaration of Independence, 1776.' On the two-hundredth anniversary of this occasion, why not begin teaching the science of God as described in the Vedic literatures, like the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is authorized and appreciated by all learned professors in the universities throughout the whole world? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on since 1966 throughout the whole world, especially in the United States of America. It is a great fortune for the American people that they trust in God. Why shouldn't this spiritual education be given to the American people in an organized way? The whole world is going down and becoming Godless. If the American people, who trust in God constitutionally, take this movement seriously, it will be a great service to the human society. We are prepared to cooperate in this connection if the American government takes it very seriously. Awaiting your reply with interest. Yours sincerely, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami." Dated May 9th. Jackie Vaughn: Any answer? Mādhavānanda: No reply. Hari-śauri: That was three weeks back. Mādhavānanda: Four weeks, over a month. May 9th. (pause) Prabhupāda: Why they are not replying? Jackie Vaughn: I suppose you were asking too much. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Too much? So am I wrong? Jackie Vaughn: No, not at all. Prabhupāda: I'm not asking for money. Jackie Vaughn: I know. But you are doing away with our approach to dealing with problems. As you pointed out so well, it's always piecemeal, of a temporary nature. I do it in Lansing. We have a problem, we patch it up, of a temporary nature. We talk to do this, as a quick answer, solution, and we go away feeling better, that we have at least made, as we say, a step in the right direction. Next year, we'll be back with the same problem. I have this problem. Prabhupāda: Everyone. Jackie Vaughn: Everyone. Monday I'll go back to the State Capitol... *Prabhupāda: That is explained, daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. We think "Now this problem is solved," but actually it is not solved; *it has created another problem. Therefore this word is used, daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You, the problems are so great that you cannot solve it. Jackie Vaughn: Each year it mounts. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jackie Vaughn: It's getting larger and larger, almost impossible to solve. Prabhupāda: Exactly, yes. Jackie Vaughn: Each year we say, "This year is worse than any year in the history." Prabhupāda: See, this is the experienced government officer's statement. Therefore the word is used, duratyayā. What is the meaning of duratyayā? Hari-śauri: Very difficult to overcome. Jackie Vaughn: I submit I contribute to that delinquency. I help them, every day, trying to find answers, always of a temporary nature. Prabhupāda: So you kindly give little attention to this movement. It will solve all the problems. You have read some of our books? No. Jackie Vaughn: Yes. *Prabhupāda: We have all answers to the problems in the Bhagavad*-gītā, but who is hearing us? The problems and the solutions, they are all mentioned. They are given very nicely. But we do not take it. We create our own solution, imperfect solution. Jackie Vaughn: I'm struggling. Prabhupāda: Everyone is struggling. Just like you pour water on the leaf of the tree, and still it will fall down. He's perplexed that "I am giving water to the leaf every day. How is it that it is dying?" But he never thinks that "I have not done properly; therefore the leaf is dying." He does not know what is the proper way. So things, if they are not done properly, it will not produce the desired result. That is going on. You have seen our Deities? Our Deity, Kṛṣṇa? Hari-śauri: Have you seen the Deities in the temple? Jackie Vaughn: Yes. I am very fortunate. Twice I've been before you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Oh, that's nice. Jackie Vaughn: I'm very grateful. Prabhupāda: Whenever you find time, please come. Jackie Vaughn: I will. Prabhupāda: Yes. You'll get so many inspirations. (pause) The pathways in the garden, if they are occasionally washed, as far as possible, grow.... [break] *Mādhavānanda: Today is celebration of snāna*-yātrā, So.... [break] Hari-śauri: July 18. *Mādhavānanda: Today is snāna*-yātrā, disappearance of Mukunda Datta and Śrīdhara Paṇḍita and full moon. Tomorrow is disappearance of Śyāmānanda Gosvāmī. (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 13, 1976, Detroit Devotee (1): ...use this land here now for our vehicles. We want to purchase it. Hari-śauri: That's all our vehicles? Prabhupāda: What price they want? Devotee (1): We haven't started negotiating yet. Prabhupāda: But they are willing. Devotee (1): They're willing, they want to sell. Prabhupāda: Up to this? Devotee (1): No, only up to that bridge. I can show you on the way back. Ambarīṣa: We've got some pictures we can show you later. Prabhupāda: [break] ...bicycle also? Ambarīṣa: Made where? Prabhupāda: Bicycle? Cycle? Ambarīṣa: Do the car companies make bicycles? Prabhupāda: No, some companies. Ambarīṣa: Oh, yes. Some they do here. Prabhupāda: [break] ...Indian Village? Ambarīṣa: It's a section, a suburb, Indian Village. Actually, the old temple used to be in Indian Village. Prabhupāda: That means all residents Indian? Ambarīṣa: No, it was actually, I think it was named for the American Indians. Prabhupāda: Oh. Ambarīṣa: They used to live here. There was a settlement, the street that the old temple used to be on. [break] Did you purchase any land at Kurukṣetra yet, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: The government is promising. Ambarīṣa: Oh, that's good. *Prabhupāda: We have already applied for twenty*-five acres. Mr. Candrali,(?) he wanted to make some profit out of it. Ambarīṣa: Yes. Devotee (1): I think you won the heart of that government official yesterday by saying that Kṛṣṇa's black and we worship Him. (laughter) He liked that. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Ambarīṣa: Yes, Detroit River, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Big, big ships, they pass under this bridge? Ambarīṣa: No, on the other side of this island, there's a channel, a freighter channel. That's Canada over there, and this is a small island, Belle Isle. Hari-śauri: What is that project up ahead? Ambarīṣa: I guess.... It's got problems. Prabhupāda: What is that problem? Ambarīṣa: No, he was asking if they are..., big project, Renaissance Center. They are having some problems building it. (short conversation about where to stop) Devotee (1): Yes, this is where we are going to walk. Ambarīṣa: You should signal for him to stop then. Devotee (1): [break] ...attract people back to the cities. It's called the Renaissance Project. Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee (1): It's, Ambarīṣa's uncle, Henry Ford II, he is building, along with many different companies, a million dollar project. Prabhupāda: Why not at Māyāpura? Huh? Devotee (1): Ambarīṣa? I was explaining the Renaissance Project, and, ah, to try to attract people back to the city, they are building a million dollar project. Prabhupāda said: "Why not Māyāpura?" Ambarīṣa: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Lake here dried up or what? Hari-śauri: Looks like it. Prabhupāda: [break] ...attracting men to the city. Devotee (1): Because everyone is leaving the city. Prabhupāda: That is good. Hari-śauri: But not from an industrialist's point of view. *Ambarīṣa: The cities are simply becoming for the low*-class people. Cities are simply filled now with the low-class people. No respectable people can walk safely in the streets. *Devotee (1): In Detroit at five o'clock it becomes like a ghost town. No one walking. They are all afraid. If low*-class people move into the buildings, everything becomes rundown, not kept up. So now they're investing millions and millions of dollars to build new buildings, new stores, to make it attractive again. *Prabhupāda: They'll not attempt to make the low*-class men high class. Huh? Why they are lacking that point? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually the high*-class man and the low-class man, their activities are the same. Simply they are living in bigger and smaller houses. They smoke the same cigarettes and they drink the same. Prabhupāda: Therefore I say why not make them high class. *Hari-śauri: There's no high*-class men to teach them. Prabhupāda: We are there. Hari-śauri: Except for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Just like that congressman yesterday, he was speaking, "I am a lawmaker." But he admitted that they are simply patching up here and there wherever they can. [break] Devotee (1): Ambarīṣa? Somebody? Know what this building is? Ambarīṣa: No, I don't know this park very well. It's a casino. Devotee (1): It's a gambling house, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (laughter) Prabhupāda: (indistinct). *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I've been visiting your buses, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and managing the book distribution with the buses. It's going very nicely. Ever since Māyāpura all the boys have doubled their collection and distribution. And as soon as all the debts from New York temple are paid, then more and more books can go. We'll try to do everything. [break] The men are just like the army. The van leaders, bus leaders. So everything is very efficient, clean, and very high*-powered. [break] ...just two years ago, when we left India, that you wanted an army of sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs always traveling, distributing books. Prabhupāda: (looking at plaque) Commissioners? Hari-śauri: Commissioners of Parks and Boulevards, William Livingston Jr., President; *Fred Gunter, Vice*-President. Ambarīṣa: Sperimus meliora. Hari-śauri: (indistinct) generibus. Some Latin inscription on the bridge. Ambarīṣa: It means to increase their happiness they have built this park. Melior means increased happiness. Prabhupāda: [break] ...Kṛṣṇa there is no happiness. All imagination. *Hari-śauri: Moghāśā mogha*-karmāṇaḥ. Prabhupāda: We shall go this way? Ambarīṣa: This way's OK. Satsvarūpa: ...soldier. A hundred years ago when the north fought the south. This is some memorial. [break] Devotee (2): ...devotional service is transcendental to the modes of material nature. That's from the very moment that one first begins to render devotional service? Or gradually? From the first very moment? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Devotee (2): ...of devotional service in the modes of material nature, there's no such thing. Prabhupāda: No. Means if you do not follow the regulative principles, then it is mixed. *Satsvarūpa: Sometimes devotees think that in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, when Lord Kapila teaches there is devotional service in ignorance and in passion and in goodness, that that may mean your own disciples too. But then some devotees say "No, we're above that designation. It's not mixed devotional service, even though we're neophytes." Prabhupāda: If you voluntarily do not follow, then you fall down. That is in ignorance. Devotee (2): So where that is described in the Third Canto, Part Four, where it is described about devotional service in ignorance, passion, and goodness, and so forth, that has nothing to do with your disciples then? Prabhupāda: Who is my disciple? First of all let him follow strictly the disciplined rules. Devotee (2): As long as one is following, then he is... Prabhupāda: Then he is all right. Devotee (2): ...above those lower levels. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, why there is need of regulative principles? He is immediately liberated. If he thinks that "Because I have taken to, I am liberated," then why the rules and regulations? Devotee (2): But as long as he follows the rules and regulations. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Devotee (2): [break] ...the brahma*-bhūtaḥ platform, brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54], immediately? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavad*-gītā it is said māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa [Bg. 14.26], unalloyed. Bhakti-yogena sevate, then he's liberated. If it is vyabhicāreṇa, sometimes falls down, sometimes..., then it is within sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. The word is māṁ ca yaḥ avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena, pure bhakti. Hari-śauri: Without any falldown. Devotee (2): Falldown means deviation from the orders of the spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is vyabhicāreṇa, that is not avyabhicāreṇa. If you are subjected to the attraction of māyā, that is vyabhicāreṇa. Devotee (2): If somebody is following the instructions, but if there's attraction for māyā... Prabhupāda: That cannot be. Maybe in the beginning due to past habits, but that must be nil very soon. Otherwise he's not following. Just like fan switched off may move for a little, but not that it will go on moving. Must stop. Switch is off. And if it is going on, then the switch is not yet off. [break] Devotee (2): A devotee is sometimes subject to hankering or lamentation. That is material though, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): In other words, if, at that moment, if he desires something other than Kṛṣṇa, that's a material desire. Prabhupāda: Then he has to learn it. So long one is not competent in that position, he's subjected, he may fall down. What is that temple light? Devotee (2): That's a fountain. Prabhupāda: It is just like Jagannātha temple. Hari-śauri: That, right in the distance there with the light on the top. Yeah, same design. [break] Devotee (2): ...after us anymore because they don't have the money. Prabhupāda: Detroit has got no money? Such a big industrial city. Neglected. They have got money. Hari-śauri: They're not keeping this park up very well. Prabhupāda: No. Because nobody comes here. Hari-śauri: Too dangerous. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Hari-śauri: Many of the big parks in the big cities, they are full of thieves and all kinds of other people. *Prabhupāda: That means they cannot improve the condition of the people. Just like at the airport, everyone is checked. There is no gentlemen. Why everyone is checked? That means the whole mass of people, they're all rogues and thieves. Therefore it is necessary to keep an ideal, an ideal class of men brāhmaṇas. Then people will follow. But there is no such.... Everyone is coolie. That's all. Everyone is. They are making everyone coolie. Coolie civilization. One officer came to see me in Perth, Australia. So I told him, this is a civilization of fourth*-class men. You remember? Devotee (2): We heard the tape. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Devotee (2): You said there must be an ideal class of men. Prabhupāda: There is no ideal class of men. All fourth class, fifth class, tenth class. Śrutakīrti: He accepted it also. Prabhupāda: Oh, you were present. *Śrutakīrti: Yes. At the finish he said, "Now I'm going back to my fourth*-class friends." Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): This man last night also, he admitted. *Prabhupāda: There is no first*-class men. All fourth-class men. They do not know what is first-class men. If one has got money, then he's all right. That is Kali-yuga. No qualification. But if you have got money, then it is all right. You are big man. Money's everything at the present moment. People, they are trying to accumulate money by all means. Never mind first class, second class, third class, bring money any way. Rather, if one does not drink, he's a third-class man. And if one drinks, he's first-class man. Civilized. In India, formerly, any gentleman comes, a glass of water or two sandeśa was given. Now that is rejected. If a gentleman is not offered a bag(?) of wine and some chicken, then it is not proper reception. [break] ...building? Devotee (2): It's an office building, a big one in Renaissance Center. Those ones to your left are under construction. Prabhupāda: Oh, templelike. Devotee (2): Templelike, but it is an office building. Those are the buildings they are building their Renaissance Center. They're going to be very tall. Prabhupāda: [break] (in car) These people waste money. Devotee (2): Frivolousness. Prabhupāda: Childish. They do not know the value of life. Hari-śauri: These parks are not very regularly attended. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hari-śauri: Very dirty and overgrown. [break] Prabhupāda: ...the Indian park. Not like American park. Hari-śauri: Living in the city is a very fearful existence. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...construction is. Nobody knows when it will be finished. Devotee (1): Now they build a building, now they are building so that they will only last for twenty years or so, and then they will tear it down and build new ones. Ambarīṣa: In Boston, they built a very tall building, and already it's sinking. And the windows are falling out, and it cannot be used. Millions of dollars they spent on this building. [break] Devotee (1): ...percentage of unemployment in the city. They are always trying to make new jobs for the people because there are so many people not working. And then they claim welfare and the state supports them. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (1): The state supports them by welfare. So they are just idle and getting money from the government, and then they just cause trouble. [break] Prabhupāda: ...storefront building? Devotee (1): Yes, this is a black area. The black people move in... *Ambarīṣa: This used to be actually the best street in Detroit. About maybe seventy*-five years ago, all the wealthy people lived on this street, Jefferson Avenue, and then the black people moved in and took over, and then all their businesses, they went out of business, and now it's all boarded up. Very dangerous place. All the white people in the suburbs, they live in fear of all the black people in the city. Prabhupāda: The government cannot manage? Ambarīṣa: No. The mayor is black. The police they cannot do anything. Devotee (4): The police force is also becoming black. He's putting black men in charge of every department of the city, and they're mismanaging everything. Prabhupāda: There is possibility of another civil war? Ambarīṣa: Yes. Possibly some sort of a race war or something. In Boston, they have a lot of trouble because of this bussing. They bus the black children into the white neighborhoods to go to school to achieve equal education, and the white communities do not like this. In Boston there has been a lot of violence between the black people and the white people. Very much hatred, very much hate each other. Prabhupāda: So only remedy is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Ambarīṣa: Yes. About a month ago there was a black lawyer, and he was walking out of the City Hall in Boston, and some white people beat him with an American flag. They beat him with an American flag and hurt him very badly, and this caused very much... Prabhupāda: Commotion. Ambarīṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: There is hatred within. Artificially they have given equal rights. [break] Devotee (4): ...because in bad neighborhood, [break] (continues onboard bus) Prabhupāda: ...two vans. Satsvarūpa: Besides this, well, we have so many more. Ghanaśyāma and the men in the library party, they have three vans, and then the men who finance their travels, they have two vans, so that's another five. Prabhupāda: Along with this van, another van goes? Satsvarūpa: Yes. And since we have this and the Deity worship, the collecting has increased and the book distribution, because now they're more regulated and it's not so difficult. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have a kitchen in the back, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And a shower and toilet, a sink. It's complete. Prabhupāda: Small house. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, traveling. *Prabhupāda: This is fulfilling Caitanya Mahāprabhu's desire: pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma. Go to every village and town. So you are doing very nice to satisfy the Lord. He wanted this. Pṛthivīte nagarādi*-all over the world. So when He meant all over the world, naturally He meant all the people of the world. Why Indian? Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma, it will include all the villages, towns, all over the world. That means all people of the world should take up this. Bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. The Indians' duty is to carry the message, give it to the other people, and then they'll do. [break] ...a worldwide movement, not any particular. They may not misunderstand that this is Indian or Hindu. It is not that. Kṛṣṇa is meant for everyone. So, we shall have to go? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: First class, everything is first class. Satsvarūpa: They have all your books here too, Śrīla Prabhupāda. All your books are here. (kīrtana starts) Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: ...full of your tapes. (end) *Room Conversation with Mother and Sons-*-June 13, 1976, Detroit Mādhavānanda: Have you read the other cantos also? You read all the way up to the Fifth Canto. *Mother: I read so much, you know, and I have four children-(indistinct) doesn't live at home*-and I read so much that people probably wonder how I get my work done. But it gets done. (Prabhupāda chuckles). And it's like I'm in another world. It's really great. I had a dream about you, Prabhupāda. And I dreamed.... This is a dream that's coming true. But you didn't acknowledge me because I didn't say "Kṛṣṇa." (Prabhupāda laughs) And then when I give in, you did, and you asked me what I knew about Kṛṣṇa, and I didn't answer you because I didn't want to display my ignorance. Prabhupāda: Very good. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and be one of our members. Your son is also very good. Mother good, son good. According to our Indian estimate, son acquires the quality of mother and the daughter acquires the quality of the father. Mother: I didn't understand. Pradyumna: You didn't understand? The son acquires the quality of the mother and the daughter acquires the quality of the father. So like mother, like son. Mother: When Frank(?) was living in the temple, I didn't tell Kim this, but he looked ten years younger than he does right now. Mādhavānanda: When he was living in the temple he looked ten years younger. I was thinking he should live in the temple again. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. One clergyman, he asked me, "Swamiji, why your disciples look so bright?" And that's a fact. Mother: All the devotees. *Prabhupāda: Because they are spiritually enlightened. That is the cause of brightness. And materially involved*-moroseness. Because it is ignorance. Material life means life of ignorance. And spiritual life means life of enlightenment. That is the difference. Material life is called tamas. Tamas means darkness. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya. This is the Vedic mantra. Don't remain in darkness. But people cannot understand. "I am living in the light. Why I'm darkness?" Darkness means without any spiritual enlightenment. That is darkness. So the Vedic injunction is "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light." The light is my spiritual life, and material life means darkness. Because he does not know what is going to happen next. You are under the laws of material nature. The nature will act according to the association you make, exactly. You do not know that you are infecting some contagious disease. You may not know it, but it will act. In due course of time, you'll develop that disease and suffer. Similarly, without knowledge, in ignorance, imperceptibly we are associating with a certain law of nature, and we shall be victimized. We may not know it, but we shall be victimized. That is the life of ignorance. A child does not know that if he touches the fire it will burn and it will cause some disease, some sore. He does not know. But he, somehow or other, if he touches fire, these things will come. This is the life of ignorance. You do something, you do not know what is the effect. But the effect will come, and you'll have to suffer. You know or not know, it doesn't matter. That is ignorance. Life of darkness. The Christian theologicians, they say that "Why shall I suffer for my...?" They do not believe in the karma, fruitive activity. But that means ignorance. They have no sufficient knowledge. Karma is there and effect is there, but they do not know it. Poor fund of knowledge. Therefore it is failing. They have failed, these Christian priest, to explain everything philosophically. So advanced Westerners, they are now educated in science philosophy, they are not attracted with these dogmatic views. So to remain in ignorance is animal life. To be enlightened is human life. And the topmost enlightenment is to understand God and to love Him. That is the topmost enlightenment. Unfortunately, there is no education to know what is God, and what to speak of loving Him. This is modern civilization. Ignorance. A civilization of ignorance. They do not know what is what. Simply speculating, wasting time, talking all nonsense. This is going on in the name of education, but actually they are in ignorance. They do not know what is what. They are reading so many philosophical speculation, horrible condition of the so-called philosopher, scientist. Simply "I believe," "In this believe, that believe." You believe.... Believe something. That is your (indistinct). But your belief is not final. That is creating chaotic condition. You believe some way, I believe something, he believes something. What is the profit? Chaos. So all these philosophers, scientists, they believe "I believe," as if his belief will be a doctrine. Why he believes like that? People also accept like that. Nobody questions that a person says "I believe," that means he is not in perfect knowledge. But in Vedic śāstra, there is no question of belief. This is the fact. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. It never says that "I believe there are so many aquatics." No. Clear declaration: Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. There are nine hundred thousand different forms of life in the water. Bas. This is Vedic knowledge. It never says, "I believe." What is the meaning of belief? You must know definitely and declare it. That is Vedic knowledge. Speculation is not allowed. Truth must be declared as it is. (aside:) That Bengali woman wanted to see me? Mrs. Dasgupta. Mādhavānanda: I sent someone to find her. *Prabhupāda: So here is definitive knowledge, in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There's no question of "I believe" or "You believe." No. What you are, your belief? You may believe wrongly. You are not perfect. They do not accept this, that every one of the conditioned souls is imperfect with four defects: illusion, committing mistake, cheating, and imperfectness of senses. Who will say it is not? It is. If you have got imperfect senses, then what is the use of your belief? If the child says "Oh, there is no father. I have never seen my father," does it mean there is no father? Because you are child, because you have got mother, there must be father, you believe or not believe. So these rascals say "I don't believe in God." Why? As it is inevitable*-the mother is there, the child is there-there must be father. You may not know him, but you can know him through your mother. But must be father. There is no question of "I don't believe there is father." No, that cannot be (indistinct) It is like that, everything fact. No question of belief. You believe or not believe, there is father. Similarly, these rascals nowadays, they say "We don't believe in God." You believe or not believe, God is there. Who cares for your believe or not believe? The same way: the mother is there, the child is there; there must be father. There is no argument. Is it not? Can anyone say "Yes, my mother is there, I am there; *I don't believe there is father"? Is it feasible? No. Common sense. So these rascals who do not believe in God, they're simply rascals. Mūḍha, narādhama, that is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Anyone who has no understanding of God, he's lowest of the mankind and rascal number one. Hmm? What do you think? Satsvarūpa: Sometimes there's a question that I'm asked, that we say we're imperfect so we have to receive perfect knowledge, but they say if you're always imperfect, then how can you know that it's perfect, what you're hearing? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Just like a child does not believe, a boy, he has not seen his father. He does not believe that there is father. But if the mother says, "Yes, my dear child, there is father," so then his knowledge is perfect. With his imperfect knowledge, he was disbelieving that there is father, but when the mother says, he has to accept it. Then his knowledge becomes perfect. He has not seen who is father. That's a fact, maybe. And, but the mother is authority. She says, "Here, my dear child. There is father." Then his knowledge perfect. So we may be imperfect, the child is imperfect, but when he gets the knowledge from the perfect source, mother, then it is perfect. Similarly, we, we never say that we are perfect. If you are perfect, then why you are learning? You are trying to become perfect. So our process is that we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Therefore whatever we say, it is perfect. A child does not know, "What is this, father?" The father says "My dear child, it is called microphone." So after that, if he takes it and declares to anyone, "This is microphone," that is perfect, although he's a child. Because he's learned it from the perfect father. This is our process. We don't speculate. We don't speculate whether there is father or not. That is not our process. We ask from the mother, "Mother, they say I have got father. I have never seen." So mother says, "Yes, my dear child, you have got a father." Then finish. Knowledge is perfect. And the child cannot challenge, "I have never seen my father. How can I believe you?" This is nonsense. Your mother says, that is fact. That's all, finished. You cannot challenge mother: "Mother, I have never seen my father; how can I believe?" That is nonsense! This is going on. "I have never seen God. Can you show me God?" This rascaldom is going on. First of all you must know you are a rascal. How can you see God? You hear from the authority who knows God. That is the injunction. *You have to approach tattva*-darśī, who has seen God through spiritual eyes. So one has to approach such a person who actually knows God, seen God, and approach him, praṇipātena. Not like that childish challenge. By surrender, praṇipātena. Then question. First of all surrender. Praṇipātena, paripraśnena. Not by challenging. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Therefore one has to go to guru, where there is no challenge. There is no question of challenging. You can make question. That is another thing. But not challenge. Then you'll be deceived. Therefore first condition is praṇipātena. Without praṇipāta, you cannot make advancement. So this philosophy, our philosophy or anyone's philosophy.... Philosophy is not for our or yours. Philosophy is philosophy. That is a science. Philosophy is the science of sciences. That is the description of philosophy. In our college days we were philosophy student of Professor, Dr. W. S. Hartford. He defined that "Philosophy is the science of sciences." There are different departments of scientific knowledge. When they are taken together, the original science is philosophy. Philosophy is the science. Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam etad jñānam. Tad ajñānaṁ yad anyathā. It is not stated in the Bhagavad-gītā? Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. To know the Absolute Truth, that is philosophy. So the simple philosophy is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, that: *To understand God, a simple method. Simple method to.... Just like the earth is there, everybody knows. And from the earth different varieties of living entities are coming. The grass is coming, the plant is coming, then insects are coming, flies are coming, then by eating the grass or flies, the bigger animals are coming or they're existing. Take for four*-legged animals, they are eating the grass, the plants. So they are living, their generation is going on. Then the human being is coming by evolution. So anyway, ultimately, they are coming from the earth. Is it not? Is there any difficulty? So we are coming from the earth or water or air, fire, there are five elements. Therefore on the total material elements is our mother. The mother means wherefrom one comes. He's your child because his body has come from your body. Everyone knows it. So every living being is coming out of this earth in different forms. Now if it is established, the mother is the earth and everything that is coming out of mother, they are children, then where is father? Is it not the next inquiry? Mādhavānanda: Is that not the next inquiry? *Prabhupāda: The mother is there, the children are there. The next inquiry is..., suppose unknown man comes to him, "Where is your father?" So who is the father? And father says, ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā: [Bg. 14.4] "I am father." Finished. Father is God. God has created this earth. He has impregnated the earth with the living entities, and they are coming out. Where is the difficulty? But because they are in ignorance, rascals, it takes long, long time to understand this simple truth. So dull-headed. The children are there and mother is there, and why father, there should be no father? What is the answer? Satsvarūpa: That the mother is just some symbolic idea, there is no... *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, mother it is. Mother means who begets, who gives birth. You practically see, grass to the highest form of life, they are coming from earth, living at the cost of the earth. The earth is supplying food, food grains, vegetables. So mother..., as child is growing by sucking the mother's breast, so we are living at the cost of mother. She is giving us milk, she is giving us everything. That is mother. And śāstra, the earth is considered mother. Ātma*-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī... but they have no knowledge. Mother means who creates my body, who gives me feeding in the beginning, gives me strength. That is mother. How you can understand mother otherwise? So mother is there, earth. Dhenur dhātrī tathā pṛthvī. Pṛthvī is mother. And practically we see. She is giving, the mother earth is giving birth to so many varieties of children-8,400,000. Then the next inquiry should be: the mother is there, the children are there, then where is the father? That answer is given by Kṛṣṇa: ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4], "I am the father." So where is the difficulty to understand the Supreme Lord? But they are so dull-headed that they have no even common sense, and they're passing as philosopher, politician, and scientist, big leader, big rascal. This is going on. This is going on. And big, big rascals, they have taken the leadership of the world, and the world is in chaos, chaotic condition, everyone is unhappy, suffering. Guest: My heart has been captivated by the person that first introduced me to you, George Harrison, and... Prabhupāda: George Harrison? Oh. You came with him? Guest: I first became interested several years back in what you were writing when I, especially when I began to see the tie with what he was singing. And now, the music he's doing right now reflects what I am looking for myself. Satsvarūpa: He's more following George Harrison than following you. Guest: I see the two of you as not... Prabhupāda: What is George Harrison's? What is the idea? He is... Guest: I see both of you standing together, I don't see you apart. That's why I'm here right now. Prabhupāda: Thank you. This boy is also nice. He comes to me. He offers me. He has given one great big estate in London. He financed my first Kṛṣṇa book. It required nineteen thousand dollars. So I asked him, that "I have no money. If you can pay, I can print." So he gave immediately. I have admitted. You have seen my Kṛṣṇa book? Show him. Guest: Oh, yes. I feel that I am personally in debt to him as well as being in debt to you at this point in my life. Prabhupāda: He's a good boy. Mādhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? There are many, many guests coming, Indian people coming. We have not seen so many coming for a long time, and I think it is because they know you are here. [break] *Prabhupāda: One or two words, that is enough. Godless civilization. Everything, there is proof, there is father, the supreme father. And still they do not believe in God. He says ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā, "I am the seed-giving father." We have got experience that father gives the seed in the womb of the mother and then the child takes body from the mother and comes out. Everyone knows. Hari-śauri: "It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed giving father." Prabhupāda: Purport. Hari-śauri: "In this verse it is clearly explained that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is the original father of all living entities. The living entities are combinations of the material nature and the spiritual nature. Such living entities are seen not only on this planet, but in every planet, even in the highest, where Brahmā is situated. Everywhere there are living entities; within the earth there are living entities, even within the water and within fire. All these appearances are due to the mother..." Prabhupāda: And these rascals say in other planets there is no life. And we have to believe that. This is going on. Why other planet there is no life? Only this planet? These rascal things are going on. *Hari-śauri: "All these appearances are due to the mother, material nature, and Kṛṣṇa's seed*-giving process. The purport is that the living entities, being impregnated in the material world, come out and form at the time of creation according to their past deeds." *Prabhupāda: Now if the child is.... If the father puts the seed in the black wife, the child may come in black body. In the white body, the child may come in white body. So the body is different according to the mother, but the soul is the same. One gets the body according to the body of the mother. But either in the black body or the white body the soul is the same. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. This simple truth they cannot understand, common sense. In one minute it can be understood. The father..., mother is there and the child is there. So there must be father. How one can deny? Guest: Do we have any other goal in life than this... Prabhupāda: Well, the first thing is that you must know what you are. You should know that the mother is nature and the father is God. I am the child. Then you try to understand the father and the son obedience to father. Then you have to learned how to become obedient to the father. Then father will be pleased. And this father is not a poor father. He has created the whole material world. So if you become good son, then naturally you enjoy the property of the father. Everything will be solved simply by understanding the father. And it is natural the son inherits the property of the father. The father is so rich, God, that how much property you can enjoy? What is the use of your endeavoring differently? You have got your father's property. Why you are wasting your time to become happy separately from the father? You just become obedient son of your father; naturally, you will inherit the father's property and be happy. Why you are endeavoring separately without father? That is your mistake. You want to be happy. So happiness is already there. You are such a rich man's son, God. God is the proprietor of everything. So instead of becoming a very dear child to the father, why you are endeavoring separately to become happy? Just become a very dear child to the father. Then everything is there. Guest: How to become dear? *Prabhupāda: You recognize: "God is my father, and I shall be obedient son." That's all. You do what father says. Then you become obedient son. The father says "Always think of Me." Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. You can think of the father always. Where is the difficulty? Just like we're.... Kṛṣṇa is the father. You see Kṛṣṇa daily. And if you think of Kṛṣṇa, where is the difficulty? If you see within your heart the Deity, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, you don't require to pass M.A., Ph.D. examination. You can do it. And He asks man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. That's all. Simple thing. You come to the temple, offer obeisances. Everyone is offering. Where is the difficulty? What you lost? Where is your loss anything? If you come to the temple and offer your respectful obeisances, "Father, please accept my obeisances," where is the difficulty? And father is so kind: "Oh, My dear son, you have come. Very good. Thank you." Immediately you become recognized: "Oh, you are a good son." Where is the difficulty? You don't require the so-called meditation. Meditation is good if you think of your father. If you meditate on something nonsense, what is the use? This is going on. "Real father don't recognize; we are meditating." Misleading. Real meditation is to think of God. But if you do not know God, what is God, and when we present "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa," you don't accept, then what can be done? Everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, God. But if somebody says, "No, I do not accept," that is his business. If he wants to be misled, let him do. What can we do? But here is God. Thing is very simple. There is no difficulty. But we are so obstinate, lowest of the mankind, we would not accept simple things. We will make it complicated and be frustrated. That is our disease. Unnecessarily we make things complicated. Otherwise, father is there, father's instruction is there, father's favor is there, everything is there. Hari-śauri: So I think they're going for the feast now? Mādhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Go. Take prasādam. Guest: I don't understand you, but accept my humble obeisances please, anyway. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Thank you. Mother: Thank you Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Both of them are good, mother and son. What happened to that machine? [break] ...say there is no father, there is no God. A man who is speaking nonsense like this, he is born by a father. And where he gets the idea that without father the child is born? Hari-śauri: Doctor Frog. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. He's born by a father. So where he gets the idea a child is there without father? There was chemical, there was this, there was.... Chemical is there in the semina. It is a chemical combination. But that chemical combination is not living entity. Body is chemical composition, but why don't you manufacture a living being with these chemicals? Hari-śauri: Even for a chemical reaction, the chemicals have to be brought together. Prabhupāda: No, suppose he's able to bring together, put together. But where is the life? Hari-śauri: But even accepting their idea that things are produced from chemical reactions, who is creating the chemical reactions? Prabhupāda: Yes, put this chemical together and bring life. Where is the life? We ask, prepare one egg. You can analyze the white part and the yellow part of the egg, and you find some chemical properties. You bring them together and put in the same layer and everything. Now produce life. Where is that science? Simply talking. "Yes, we shall do. We are trying." Nonsense, trying. What is the use of trying? It is already there. God sent egg through the chicken; it will produce life. So why you are wasting your time in this way? Rather, try to understand the person who has got such a brain that within this chemical composition there is life. You cannot do it; therefore you inferior. Somebody has done it. Even if you say "Nature has done it," nature is then powerful. You are not even to the level of nature, what to speak of God. Nature is only one of the energies of God. You cannot understand even the energy. How you will understand the energetic? Hari-śauri: It's difficult to understand how they could possibly say that there's no intelligence. Prabhupāda: That is their.... Therefore we say these are all rascals. Therefore generally I say this very strong word, but that is the only word to be used for them. Rascals, simply rascals. We have no business with them that we have to flatter. "No, no, sir," you have to be saying "a great scientist." We say you are rascals. That's all. Straight, blunt. Four annas worth. [break] Hari-śauri: I saw a lot of Indians walking around this morning even. Prabhupāda: In our garden? Yes, they have found a good place, temple. Hari-śauri: It's a fact. This is the best place in all of Detroit. Prabhupāda: And if you purchase that land, it will be very beautiful. Mādhavānanda: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: I have advised them to advertise books on the riverside. People will see. Hari-śauri: Hmm. That's a very good idea. Prabhupāda: Therefore, on the first day of seeing, I closed the transaction. "Now agreed, I will give you cash, three hundred thousand." He immediately agreed. Verbally, your transaction was finished on my first meeting. Then it was done. It was kept for us by Kṛṣṇa; otherwise, you could not touch this property, it is so valuable property. Hari-śauri: Seems Kṛṣṇa arranges things very nicely sometimes. Prabhupāda: Everything is done just like it is temple. The Deity hall. Hari-śauri: It's a perfect place. Couldn't be better. (end) *Garden Conversation-*-June 14, 1976, Detroit Mādhavānanda: ...year. And it rises also very early. Prabhupāda: Why, in different season, the day is longer and shorter? Rakṣaṇa: The time that Lord Vivasvān takes to travel across the sky differs. Prabhupāda: Who travels? You say.(?) Sun is fixed up, they say. Devotee: According to their theory, it is fixed up. Prabhupāda: According to our theory.... We don't say theory. According to Bhāgavata statement, in this season, the sun runs slow. In the other season, the sun runs fast. That is understandable. But if the sun is fixed up, why in some season if is going fast and some season it is going slow? Mādhavānanda: Their theory is because the earth is tilted on an axis, that during the winter season the sun is hitting at a different angle, and therefore it's different time. They say that the earth is rotating also, and the axis is turning from one side to the other, so that north is sometimes... Prabhupāda: Where is the question of going fast and slow? Jayādvaita: They say that because the smaller portion of the earth..., the earth is spherical, and by the top it's smaller, so when that top side is pointed toward the sun, the sun is, as the earth turns, the sun is hitting each place sooner in each day. So it's going, traveling less distance on that surface. Then when it turns the other way, it has to go more distance. Some..., they have some concocted idea. (laughter) Prabhupāda: (laughing) All concoction. That is not explanation. This is nice explanation, that in this season the sun goes faster and in this season the sun goes slower. That is quite understandable. Just like you are walking. Sometimes you walk slow, sometimes you walk fast. That is possible. (pause) So you can convert the down room, one of the down room as reception, like this. This should be Deity room. Hari-śauri: They'd have to section that big room off, though, to make a Deity room there. It would considerably reduce the size of that room. Prabhupāda: Which room? Hari-śauri: This big room upstairs? I was just looking because you mentioned it. But then they'd have to put a section for the Deities, so the actual temple space left would be very small. Prabhupāda: No, it is bigger hall than the down. Hari-śauri: It's not very much bigger. Prabhupāda: I think... Mādhavānanda: Well, his point is right also that the Deity, actually the space the Deities take up on the altar is the same exact..., it's actually the same length, but it seems smaller because of the Deity room being excluded in the top portion. But if we section off a space for the Deities, then it would be considerably smaller. Prabhupāda: You take length and breadth of both. Then we shall. Mādhavānanda: All right. Hari-śauri: The advantage downstairs is that they already have the archway section there also in the room behind, but there's not so much facility upstairs. *Prabhupāda: That we can make. (long pause) I think this part of the year is very nice, June*-July? No. June-July...? Mādhavānanda: This is the best. *Prabhupāda: Or May*-June-July. How many months? Mādhavānanda: It begins in the last part of May and it ends at the beginning part of September. Prabhupāda: So May, June, July, August, at least four months. Four months. (long pause) *Jayādvaita: At the college programs, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and I have been giving a lot of classes on varṇāśrama*-dharma. Because they always want to hear something about the Hindu caste system, so they'll take us on that basis. And then we speak about varṇāśrama-dharma. And they don't have any idea to defeat it. They always, some little weak argument, but they don't have any better system. Prabhupāda: What is their argument? Jayādvaita: Hardly.... Well, they have some idea, they argue that there's no social mobility, because they all have some bodily idea that caste by birth. Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact. Jayādvaita: No. Prabhupāda: The qualification. Jayādvaita: When we present the real idea, then they're just sitting there, they have no argument. And then we challenge their system, that "What is the purpose of your society? What is the goal of it?" and they can't say anything. *Prabhupāda: Unless there is division of activity, nothing can be done perfectly well. The natural division is there in the body*-the head, the arms, the belly and the legs. Similarly, in the social body also there must be the heads, the intelligent class of men, brāhmaṇa. Then everything will go on smoothly. And, at the present moment, there is no intelligent class of men. All laborer, worker class of men, fourth class. No first class, second class. Therefore society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain. Jayādvaita: Their only objection, when we present that there's brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa, then they become automatically hostile, because they understand that we're against sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sense gratification is animal civilization. And sense control is human civ.... Sense gratification is not human society. Sense gratification is not human civilization. That they do not know. Their central point is sense gratification. That is the defect. They are running on an animal civilization as human civilization. That is the defect. Sense gratification is animal civilization. And actually they are animals. If they can kill their own child, it is animal. Just like cats, dogs, they kill their own child. What is that? It is animal civilization. Who was talking that child is put into the, what is that, left luggage? *Hari-śauri: Left*-luggage lockers. Trivikrama Mahārāja, in Japan. He said over two hundred thousand, uh, twenty thousand babies, they put them in a left-luggage locker and leave them. *Prabhupāda: Bus way station? Railway station? Leave luggage. Put it and lock it, then not coming back. Then when there is bad smell.... This is going on. This is simply animal civilization. Taking the last drop of milk from the cow and immediately send it to the slaughterhouse. They are doing like that. Before sending to the slaughterhouse, they draw out the last drop of milk from the cow. And immediately killing. So you require the milk, you are taking so much milk, without milk you cannot.... And the animal from whom you take milk, she's your mother. They forget this. Mother supplies milk, she supplies milk from her body, and you are killing the mother? Is that civilization? Killing mother? And milk is necessary. Therefore you are taking the last drop of it. Otherwise, what is the use of taking the last drop of milk from the cow? It is necessary. So why not let her live and supply you milk, and you can make hundreds and thousands of very nourishing palatable preparation from milk? Where is that intelligence? Milk is nothing but transformation of the blood. So instead of taking the blood, take the transformation and live nicely, like honest gentlemen. No. They are not even gentlemen. Rogues, uncivilized. If you want to take meat, you can kill some insignificant animals like hogs and dogs which have no use. You can eat them, if you at all eat. That was allowed, hogs and dogs are allowed. Because no gentleman class will take meat. It is lower class. So they were allowed, "All right, you can take hogs, śvapaca." Lower class of men, they were taking hogs and dogs. Still, they are taking. So if you want meat, you can kill these unimportant animals. Why you are killing the animal whose last drop of milk you require? What is the sense? And as soon as you take Kṛṣṇa, He killed Pūtanā but gave her the position of the mother. Because Kṛṣṇa felt obliged, that "Whatever the Pūtanā's intention may be, but I sucked her breast, so she's My mother." So we are taking milk from the cow. The cow is not my mother? Who can live without milk? And who has not taken cow's milk? Immediately, in the morning, you require milk. And the animal, she's supplying milk, she's not mother? What is the sense? Mother*-killing civilization. And they want to be happy. And periodically there is great war and wholesale massacre, reaction. (pause) You make it nice garden. Next year I shall come. From May, I shall stay here May, June, July. (devotees laugh) Mādhavānanda: We will have many flowers. Prabhupāda: I find this place is the best than all our places. Huh? What do you think? Hari-śauri: Definitely. Prabhupāda: Specially this building on the riverside. Water is there. Mādhavānanda: Maybe, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you would like to stay a little longer this year? Prabhupāda: I have got engagements; otherwise I would have stayed here. Already engagement is there. I want to return by fourteenth August in India. Otherwise, I would have stayed here and see things are nicely done. Anyway. Jayādvaita: They've been after you for so long in New Vrindaban. Prabhupāda: New Vrindaban climatic condition is not so good. Here the climatic condition is good. Four months this climate is very good. It is in the central part of America? Mādhavānanda: Little north. Prabhupāda: North. So north is supposed to be cooler. Hari-śauri: In the winter it's not so good. Winter's very bad. Prabhupāda: Winter eight months? No. In winter this water becomes solid. You know that? Satsvarūpa: Sometimes in Detroit there's three foot of snow, and the winter is, it's a very deep winter here, but the summer is nice. Prabhupāda: You convince your countrymen that "It is a great sinful activity that you are killing your mother. You stop this. If you want to eat meat, you can eat some other, nonimportant animals. There are so many." The Chinese they are eating rats also. Cats, rats, everything. Devotee: Monkeys. *Prabhupāda: Monkeys also. So monkey's the forefather of Darwin. Better kill them so that there is no opportunity of criticism that "You are coming from monkey." You extinct this species. It is rather insulting. If I say that you are descendant of monkey, then it is insult. So extinct this monkey. I don't think there is monkey here. Africa there is monkey. You have been in Africa? There are monkey*-eating birds. Top of the tree, monkey, they catch up on the head and drop it from high. And then they take it. (pause) There was a boat which belonged to this house. I think he has sold it. Mādhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: There was no objection. Mādhavānanda: He sold it to the lawyer, Ambarīṣa's lawyer. He did not do a very good job for us, and the proof is that the owner sold the boat to the lawyer. He got a very good deal. So he was working with Groane(?), the former owner. Prabhupāda: In his favor. Mādhavānanda: In his favor. Prabhupāda: Cheating. Mādhavānanda: Yes. And the boys were not experienced enough to protect the property. Chandeliers were taken, statues, some furniture. It was not done very nicely. Prabhupāda: That means our men were not experienced, Jagadīśa and Govardhana. Who else? Who was in charge? *Mādhavānanda: Govardhana was the president. If the lawyer knows you do not know, then he will take advantage. [break] He measured the two rooms, and the lecture hall length is forty*-seven feet and twenty-seven feet wide. And the temple room length from the back to the altar, not including the Deities room, altar, is fifty feet. Prabhupāda: Smaller. Mādhavānanda: No, actually larger. Hari-śauri: Three feet bigger. That's without a Deity room also. *Mādhavānanda: It's larger. And the width of the temple room is twenty*-eight. So if we were to put in the altar in the top room, it would also take ten feet. So that would make thirty-five feet as compared to fifty feet downstairs. So because we don't have that extra space of the temple room, the downstairs actually is bigger. The only difficulty is because there is an upstairs walk we have to walk above the Deity. But if we put a nice domes there it might look very nice also, and then not walk up there. But the space is bigger. Prabhupāda: I thought this space was bigger. Hari-śauri: It looks bigger, but the temple room is actually very big. It's a good size. Actually, the only reason they need to go above the Deities is just to get into that room where tulasī is, although they open those doors sometimes. Prabhupāda: There is another big room, so add it together. Two rooms, then it will be bigger. (pause) [break] ...with snow. Satsvarūpa: I was thinking of that. About five months, it can even snow here in April, and it snows in December. From December to April. Not that every day, but when it comes, it doesn't go away either. Prabhupāda: These trees become leafless? No. Mādhavānanda: Yes. Except for these. Prabhupāda: All other trees become. Mādhavānanda: When you are here, it's just exactly like Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is here; it is Vṛndāvana. Rakṣaṇa: Wherever His most merciful, confidential associate is. Jayādvaita: To start this center, it was not at all like Vṛndāvana. [break] Mādhavānanda: It's a channel, actually. It comes in from Lake St. Clair and then it goes around, and there's a bridge there, and just past, one hundred yards, it goes out again. All of this property is owned by one man. His name is Harris. He owns this whole island and all of the land up here also. And up this way there are also many large mansions. Fisher mansions. The same man who built this house built many other mansions up here. But this is the nicest. Prabhupāda: Oh. What for he did it? Mādhavānanda: His family members. And then on this island, at the very end, on the lake there is a very, very large mansion called the Garwood Mansion, but it was completely destroyed. Prabhupāda: Why? Mādhavānanda: Ah, this man Harris, he wanted to get all the people off of this land that he owned. So he let the hippies and Hell's Angels move into this Garwood Mansion, and they destroyed it. And they raised commotion and disturbance all along. He was trying to get them all to leave. He's a very strange person. Now he's trying to sell everything. They are thinking to make some housing complex. It's a very big business venture. That is why we want to buy this land in front, to protect this side of the house in case anyone else wants to build there. Prabhupāda: They drink this water? No. Mādhavānanda: But of all the lakes in this part of the country, this lake is the cleanest. But still it is not clean. They ruin all the waterways with the factories' wastes. When I was flying to Detroit, I passed over the lake and I saw big oil slicks all along the shores. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Just like the Kāliya serpent, poisoning the river. But you have come to dance on their heads, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Sometimes our boys, when they go into the city, they see the big buildings like the teeth of Aghāsura. But they say, "Śrīla Prabhupāda will protect us. We will go into the smelly city, we will distribute the books in the belly of the city, but Śrīla Prabhupāda will come and he will protect us." (Prabhupāda laughs) Prabhupāda: What price they want for this island? Mādhavānanda: Very large amount. Rakṣaṇa: We can have a Māyāpura complex and a Detroit complex. Mādhavānanda: I don't know exactly. [break] Satsvarūpa: ...Sundays ago, one Indian man asked after the Sunday lecture why does Kṛṣṇa like a peacock feather, or why does Kṛṣṇa have a peacock feather? So Mādhavānanda answered, "Because He likes it." And the man said, "This is not an answer. There has to be some reason." So then I said, "You cannot question why Kṛṣṇa likes something. He's a person." But he wasn't satisfied. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is God; *whatever He likes, you have to supply. That is God. Why He likes, we cannot question. That is not the business of the servant. So as servant we simply obey the orders. That's all. That is real servant. Is there any instance the servant is asking, "Why you are asking me to supply you this?" Therefore what would be the position of the servant? He would be dismissed. Bhṛtyaś cottara*-dāyakaḥ. That is very dangerous. *Duṣṭā bhāryā. If wife is polluted, duṣṭā bhāryā, and śaṭhaṁ mitram, and friend is a hypocrite.... Duṣṭa bhāryā ṣaṭhaṁ mitram. What is that? Bhṛtyaś cottara*-dāyakaḥ, and servant does not obey, gives answer or, yes, if your master asks, "Give me this," if he says, "Why are you asking?" Such kind of bhṛtya, servant, and polluted wife and hypocrite friend, three, and a snake within the bedroom.... [break] Family means father, mother, wife, children. Generally this is family. So family members are supposed to be all friendly, in one accord, so that family life is peaceful. But sometimes the family members become enemies. So how they become enemies? That is given by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita: mātā śatruḥ, ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatruḥ. Father is enemy if he's a debtor, he dies a debtor. According to Vedic law, because the son inherits the property of father, he's responsible also for the debts of the father, by law. A father dies debtor, so the creditor can claim from his son. So therefore ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatruḥ. A father who dies a debtor, he's enemy. Mātā śatrur dvicāriṇī. Mother becomes enemy when she accepts another husband in the presence of children. Mātā śatrur dvicāriṇī. Ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatruḥ is father and mother. Then wife: rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. If wife is very beautiful, she's enemy. (laughs) Rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. Because he will remain always anxious whether my wife is going with other somebody. And it so happens. (laughs) Rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. And putraḥ śatrur apaṇḍitaḥ. And son is enemy if he's a rascal. So father, mother, wife, children. Hari-śauri: And the daughter? Prabhupāda: Daughter is also son. Son and daughter are the same position. If they are not educated, they become burden. Apaṇḍita, means not educated. Then they become burden, simply eyesore. That is another place he states: varam eko guṇī putro na ca mūrkha-śatair api. Ko 'rthaḥ putreṇa jātena yo na vidvān na bhaktimān. What is the use of such children, of son, who is neither a devotee nor a learned man? So, kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ vā cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam. Just like blind eyes. What is the use of it? It is simply pains giving. You have got eyes, but if it is diseased, cataract or something, so what is the use of possessing these eyes? Sometimes it becomes so painful that the doctors, they pluck out. You know that? They get out the eyes completely, and decorate with a false eye. This is very delicate place. Even a small grain enters, it gives so much trouble. So if the eye itself is diseased, it is very, very painful. Therefore sometimes he plucks out. Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ vā cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam. Hari-śauri: One of the peacocks has opened its tail. Mādhavānanda: Dancing. (pause) Vṛtrāsura, he said the same thing when he was fighting Lord Indra, that a son who is neither a devotee nor a hero is useless. *Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu said if there is no Kṛṣṇa, then everything is useless. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda*-viraheṇa me. (long pause) [break] Mādhavānanda: ...attach a rope to the back of the boat and they have wooden skis... Prabhupāda: Plank. Mādhavānanda: ...and they ski on the water for sport. Jayādvaita: Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and I were at some place where there was a lake, and on Saturday and Sunday so many speedboats with people playing and enjoying, and on Monday, no boats. Everyone was working again. Prabhupāda: They do not want to work. Therefore they take advantage of Sunday. Inclination is not to work. But unfortunately that is not possible. If they do not work, they cannot eat. But if we say that "There is a place, without working you can eat, and for example come to us," they will not accept. Then they will say, "You are escaping. You are escaping." (laughs) If you work, that you don't like, and if somebody does not work, he's escaping. Hari-śauri: Envy. *Prabhupāda: Just see. There is story like that. One saintly person was sitting, and some karmīs came, that: "You are escaping, you are not working." So he said, "Why shall I work?" "You'll get money." "So what shall I do with the money?" "Then you can live peacefully." "I am living peacefully. Why shall I work?" (laughs) So they want to earn money, keep a good bank balance, and at the end of the life they want to live very peacefully, without any working. But if somebody is living peacefully without working, they will criticize him. Envious. They will accuse him, "You are escaping." If the end is this, and I shall live peacefully without any work*-I am doing that in my own standard-why you are bothering me? *Hari-śauri: Once I was on saṅkīrtana and an old man came up and he was very, very angry. He was so angry he was almost going to hit me, and he was saying, "I'm seventy*-three years old, and I have to work every day!" He stopped from his job to come over. And he said, "I'm seventy-three years old, and I still have to work. And here you are on the street, and you're doing nothing," like this, "and I'm so old and I still have work." He was so angry he was almost going to hit me. So envious. Mādhavānanda: Sometimes they question, "How can you be happy? You don't drink, you don't smoke, you don't eat meat, and you don't gamble. What can you do?" Prabhupāda: Did you not say that we have got something; the pleasure derived from all these things, that is very inferior. We have got pleasure of superior quality. Therefore we have been able to give it up. That is the fact. But you have no information of the superior pleasure. Therefore sticking to this inferior pleasure. *Mādhavānanda: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, when Dakṣa cursed Lord Śiva, he also said that statement that the materialists are always envious of the self-realized souls for their opulence of self-realization. Prabhupāda: [break] ...nature is the mother. So is that correct or not? Mādhavānanda: Yes, yes. Mother nature. Prabhupāda: So mother is there and children are there; so why there is no father? They say there is no God. How it is possible? The mother is there and children are there. How it is that there is no father? What is the answer? They say there is no God, or no father? Mādhavānanda: They say that there may be God, but no one has even seen Him. Prabhupāda: You might not have seen your father; does it mean there is no father? Hari-śauri: Then they say what is the relevance of knowing who your father is? We exist, so let's move forward. Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all, thing is that you say there is no God. That is.... Or there is no father. How it can be accepted? Jayādvaita: They'll say that mother and father..., we see that a human being has a mother and father. Prabhupāda: Everyone has mother and father. Birds, beasts, everyone. Jayādvaita: But these material things, they don't need mothers and fathers. *Prabhupāda: No, there is father, you do not know. You are blind. Bījo 'haṁ sarva*-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10]. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. God says there that "I am the seed-giving father." Otherwise, how it is possible to beget children? You are experienced that unless the father gives the seed, there is no question of children. So how they can deny the father? You may have seen or not seen, doesn't matter. But there must be father. Just like Jābāla Upaniṣad, Gautama Muni asked that Satyaka, "Who is your father?" First of all said: "Are you brāhmaṇa?" "Sir, I do not know." "Who is your father?" "I do not know." "Go and ask your mother." Mother asked, she said, "I do not remember who is your father." She never denied, that "You had no father; you were automatically born." She never said that. She said only that "I don't remember who is your father." And he wanted.... (aside:) Don't. Want to that service.(?) So the mother said that "I do not remember who is your father." So he said frankly, that "My mother does not remember who is my father." So Gautama Muni accepted him, that "You are so truthful; so you are brāhmaṇa. I will accept you." Nobody would like to say that "My mother does not remember who is my father." But he said that. Therefore he accepted him that "You are so truthful. I'll accept you as my disciple." So the point is, the mother said "I do not remember who is your father." But the mother did not say that "You are born without father." That is not possible. So when there is mother, there is children, there must be father. That's a fact. You cannot put any argument. How they can say there is no God? "We have not seen God." What is this nonsense argument. Hm? What will be the answer? Jayādvaita: We gave a class in a university, and the professor was an atheist. He didn't want us to speak, but he finally agreed we could speak. And after we'd spoken, he gave some argument against us. But he couldn't argue against us. His argument was for us. Prabhupāda: What was that argument? (laughs) Jayādvaita: He said that two fish are swimming in a tank, and one fish said to the other fish that there must be God because someone must be changing the water in the tank. So he was trying to ridicule that these fish are speculating something. But I just said to the students, "So this is a very good conversation. The fish is intelligent. There must be someone who is running the environment, nature." So he couldn't say anything against us, although he was trying to be a big atheist. Prabhupāda: What was the point? Jayādvaita: He was trying to show somehow that these foolish fish were speculating something just to make some story that would sound..., that this is a ridiculous thing to think. But it was a very sensible thing to think. Prabhupāda: What is that sensible thing? Jayādvaita: That the environment is being controlled by someone, not by us. So there is someone superior. So I just said that to his students, "So your professor is giving a good example." Prabhupāda: In our favor. Jayādvaita: In our favor. *Prabhupāda: That's a fact. The fish may be swimming in the water, but a sensible fish must inquire that "Who has created this water?" He is enjoying in the water, or in the land, so the enquiry should be, "Who's land it is?" We are demarkating this land "mine," he has demarkated this land "mine," but originally, who is the owner of this land? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything is God's property. That is natural. And God said, bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. Somebody must be proprietor. I am proprietor of this land. Who is the proprietor of this water? That is natural question. If somebody is proprietor of this land, then somebody must be proprietor of that water. Mādhavānanda: You once asked that same question to Kenneth Keating in Delhi. You said, "You say that this is America, but who owns America?" He could not answer. *Prabhupāda: Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata [Bg. 13.3]. The best thing is to follow the formula given by Kṛṣṇa: na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. As soon as one denies the supremacy of God, he is either sinful, rascal, lowest of the mankind, in these categories. This is the qualification. So we shall take things very simplified. As soon as we see somebody not Kṛṣṇa conscious, immediately we take him in either of these groups. That's all. Then if he objects, then you come to argument. Hmm? What do you think? Mādhavānanda: In argument, we can never be defeated. Prabhupāda: So in the school, college classes, there is sometimes argument? Satsvarūpa: All the time. (laughter) We always save half the time for questions, and immediately, "How do you know that that is true?" All challenging. "Why should I believe?" "How could God present the scriptures?" All faithless. Jayādvaita: In this part of the country, I think the students, generally they admit there is God. They're a little pious in this central portion. There are so many farms and they're not so deteriorated. Prabhupāda: Polluted. Jayādvaita: But then they don't accept that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only process for understanding God. They want to maintain Christian religion, or.... Not Christian religion, but sense gratification and, at the same time, God consciousness. Prabhupāda: Well we are not denying sense gratification. We want to regulate. That's all. Mādhavānanda: Actually, we have the best sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. Mādhavānanda: On the radio program, one lady, she was asking questions. She was very envious. "And you are living in such a palace." Prabhupāda: Why shall I not? Government servants, they live in the best place. We are Kṛṣṇa's servants, the supreme government. We must have the best car, best house, the best food, (laughter) everything. You are unfortunate, you are wretched, you cannot possess this. We are government's servants. Why the governor is living in the best house of the city? Mādhavānanda: We said, "You can live here with us." She said, "Thank you." Prabhupāda: Without any charges. Did you not say? But as soon as you shall say there is no tea, he'll go away. "Oh, horrible." (laughter) Just see. And you have to rise early in the morning. "Oh, it's still horrible." And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. "Ah, still." *Hari-śauri: There are so many apparent contradictions in our life*-style, the karmīs are just baffled. They see us living in a big nice house and enjoying such nice grounds and everything, and then we tell them we get up at three-thirty and take a cold bath and do so many..., and we don't drink or smoke or anything. They can't understand. Satsvarūpa: The Sunday newspaper here a month ago did a very big story, the whole front cover. And it was called "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness: Salvation or Slavery." Hari-śauri: That was that article that you saw in Honolulu. *Mādhavānanda: These are our two biggest book distributors of the women*-Lekhaśravantī and mother Jagadhātrī. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mādhavānanda: They claim that when we chant, we hypnotize ourselves. Prabhupāda: And still we save expenditure. You hypnotize by drinking. (laughter) We haven't got to pay for that, whiskey bottle. That is also hypnotizing. You want to forget all day's labor by drinking. That is also hypnotizing. Or by gambling. So we also hypnotize. Better hypnotizing method. *Jayādvaita: In New York, you argued that it may be hypnotizing, but by this hypnosis we get people to give up gambling, intoxication, meat*-eating and illicit sex. So it should be adopted. Śrutakīrti: ( break) ...some very interesting statistics this morning about drinkers in this country. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: My father, he's the president of this liquor company, and they study the charts to see who is drinking the most. And they have discovered that the biggest drinkers in the world are the politicians in Washington, D.C., that they drink more liquor than anyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got so many anxieties. So many anxieties. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And how can they manage nicely when they are always intoxicated? *Hari-śauri: When we were running our political format in Melbourne-one of the boys was going for some positioning in the state*-he was quoted in the newspapers. They picked it out as the quote of the week, because they asked him, they said, "What would be the first thing, if you are elected, you will do?" So he said, "I would abolish the bar in the House of Parliament." So they said, "Oh, why would you do that?" He said "How can you rule a country when you're intoxicated all the time?" So they picked it out and put it in the newspapers as the quote of the week. Prabhupāda: Who said? Hari-śauri: In Melbourne, in one of the papers. Prabhupāda: Our man said? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very good argument, that these drunkards, rascals, how you can rule over the country? You are always intoxicated. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Actually, the general mass of American people, if they hear this, they will respect us very much. Just like we were staying in the campsites. The little children, they come to the āratis, then they go back to their campsite, and they told, "Oh mommy, daddy, come see this wonderful bus." So they bring their fathers to Bhagavad*-gītā class, and we were lecturing to the fathers of all these children. And afterwards they were all giving donations and taking Bhagavad-gītās. Because they are very much upset about the country, but they have no solution. Prabhupāda: No. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And then we can give alternatives. *Mādhavānanda: In a recent issue of Newsweek magazine, there was a very large article about Washington, D.C. politicians*-congressmen and senators being exposed by the press for going out with prostitutes and taking money and misspending. Big expose, scandal. Prabhupāda: What is that sound? Airplane? Mādhavānanda: There is a very large factory over there. You can see the smokestacks. What is it? What kind of factory? Electrical company. Prabhupāda: We have got open place, but not very pleasant. You cannot sit down for a long time. The wind is cold. Mādhavānanda: Very beautiful here, all over the grounds. There's also very beautiful places over there and all over. Prabhupāda: So develop it nicely. [break] ...fruit and flower trees. Mango trees, all fruits, banana, papaya, jackfruit, apple, guava... Hari-śauri: Pineapple. Prabhupāda: Pineapple. And flowers. Hari-śauri: They have lots of gardenias there. (peacock crying in background) Prabhupāda: Where you got this? Mādhavānanda: Ann Arbor, Michigan, a farm. They raise peacocks on different farms. (loud call of peacock) Hari-śauri: It sounds just like Vṛndāvana in the morning. Prabhupāda: [break] ...also. The evening begins at eleven, half past twelve. And morning, at four o'clock. A few hours only. That is also not complete dark. Hari-śauri: Moscow is very far north, very northerly. Prabhupāda: I think I went there in June, in month of June. Mādhavānanda: When you went to Moscow, it was the mango season in India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mādhavānanda: Because I remember when you went, someone said, "You will miss the mango season, Śrīla Prabhupāda." And you said, "Preaching in the snows of Russia is more sweet than any mango." (Prabhupāda laughs) Hari-śauri: Even though you went there in the early summer, there was no fruits or anything. No flowers. Prabhupāda: Only these... Hari-śauri: Strawberries. Prabhupāda: They simply eat meat, that's all. And some milk preparation. Hari-śauri: They can't even do that now. Someone was saying that they restrict them now. One day a week they have to eat fish because there is not enough meat. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: So they force them to eat fish now. (laughs) It's very bad. Mādhavānanda: They are breeding.... In the airport we met one man; he is working on breeding a large bull, cattle. They breed cows for slaughter. So they are breeding now a very large cattle. They grow very, very.... it's called, instead of buffalo, they've named it beefalo. Jayādvaita: They crossed buffalo. Mādhavānanda: Crossbreed. And it is very huge bull. They raise it only for slaughtering, for getting a large quantity of meat. One bull, one buffalo, weighs hundreds and hundreds of pounds. And they sell it for half million dollars for one, so that they can breed it with others and make many. In the airports, when we are distributing books, we meet many farmers who have slaughter ranches. Whenever they say "farmer," usually it's for slaughtering. [break] Jayādvaita: ...in Wisconsin we saw that there are many dairy cows. They are raising them especially for milk. It's called America's dairyland. And they have many, many big dairy cows. And they are getting so much milk. We were preaching that "If you take up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you'll have the richest state, because you have so many cows, and we are preaching that people should drink milk and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So your state will be the richest." Prabhupāda: No. We can.... From milk, we can make so many nice foods. You take ghee, and from ghee, from grains, from fruits, you make so many varieties. Just like dahl, pulses, soak it in the water and then fry in the ghee and put masalā, and it is so nice salty preparation, dahl mutta. Then make samosā. You introduce these things, dahl mut(?), samosā, jalebīs, they will like. They have never tasted all these. Sandeśa, rasagullā, pantoa,(?) so many varieties from milk, only milk. Mādhavānanda: In the restaurant in New York, many, many respectable people come, and they come once and they come back again and again and again. Prabhupāda: Panwanna(?), puṣpānna, kijeranna(?), so many things. What is that? If you kill the cow you get the meat only one time. But if you allow the cow to live and take milk, and from milk you can make hundreds and thousands of preparations. That is enjoyment, real enjoyment. In Delhi, there are shops, very respectable shops. One side salt, and one side sweet. But the salt side or sweet side, they're all based on ghee. This preparation, dahibarā, so nice. Combination of grain and yogurt. So introduce this. They do not know. It is a new type of civilization we are trying to introduce for the benefit of the human society. They do not know it. Crude civilization. Primitive. Kill an animal and eat. And when you are civilized, you are supposed to know so many things; why should you kill the animal? You utilize the animal. This milk is taking the blood without killing. That is humanity. You are eating beef because of the blood. So if you take the blood in a different way, you get the same benefit. And if you are still ambitious to eat the meat, flesh, just wait, it will die, you take at that time. Why so hurry? Everyone will die, there is no doubt about it. So you take the dead body and eat. Why do they not? Hari-śauri: They said there's something wrong with it. When it dies, it has so many diseases and things. Prabhupāda: This is rascaldom. They are eating so many dead animals. Hari-śauri: But they say if they kill it in a healthy condition then the meat they eat is good. Prabhupāda: No, no, just like lobsters, they are very fond of lobster. Lobster is never bought living. It is dead and rotten, decomposed, and they eat. They cannot say that by killing we get fresh. You are eating so many rotten things, decomposed. Actually, I have seen. It has become like puss, and still they are eating. Hari-śauri: In England they had a system, the gentry, when it was pheasant shooting season, they used to kill the pheasants and they would hang them up in the outhouses. And then, after a few days, it would begin to rot. And when they were able to pull the skin off just in one piece, when it was just hanging off, they could just pull it off, then it was good for eating. That's when they would eat the flesh. Prabhupāda: Just see. And another, they are digging the pig? You said? Hari-śauri: Oh, Śukadeva was saying in Hawaii. They bury the pig, and when it becomes completely rotten they dig it up and eat it. *Prabhupāda: So similarly, when the cow is dead, you dig, or put it within the.... Or take it. No, nobody will object. In India, that is the system. When the cow is dead, there is a class, they are called cobblers, camar(?). They are informed and they'll come. They'll take it. And they'll eat the flesh and take the skin, and tan it in their own method, and then prepare shoes. They sell it in the market. So without any price, they get the skin, they eat the flesh. So nobody is harmed. But there is a class.... [break] ...they are not going to starve. From economic point of view, it is very good. So why you are killing and maintaining so big, big slaughterhouse? Let everyone maintain the cows for taking milk. And when it dies, you take it, you meat*-eaters. Make that arrangement. *Rakṣaṇa: They spend so much money on force*-feeding the cows (indistinct) Mādhavānanda: It's actually been proven that the animal's flesh becomes poison. Because of the fear of the animal, he releases adrenalin in his bloodstream, and this adrenalin makes the meat poisonous to the human system, proven scientifically. Hari-śauri: Causing cancer. Mādhavānanda: And that is one of the causes of cancer. Prabhupāda: I think we published some article. Jayādvaita: Yes, in Back to Godhead, we gave these arguments. Mādhavānanda: Mukunda did research. Prabhupāda: He wrote it nice. Mādhavānanda: Yes, cancer is the largest killing disease now. [break] Makhanlāl: (laughter) These are some pictures of our farm project, St. Louis farm project. *Prabhupāda: Yes, increase farm projects. It is very nice project. Self*-dependent. Very good. Kṛṣṇa personally, He lived in village, farm, cows, calves, land, Govardhana Hill. It is very nice. Land, in America, you have got so much land. Produce vegetable, grains, milk, eat sumptuously, no economic question. Prepare very nice product. And make some money by sending ghee in the city. Śrutakīrti will take charge. (laughter) There is sea also? No. Makhanlāl: There's a small creek in one... Prabhupāda: Not ocean. Makhanlāl: Not ocean, no. Hari-śauri: That's just the hills in the background. Prabhupāda: I think this farm organization will not be liked by the government. *Hari-śauri: Because of the self*-sufficiency? Once they know that we can live independently, they won't like it. Mādhavānanda: They don't like it already. They are attacking in New Vrindaban, publicity saying that this is just a hippie farm and this and that. They don't like.... It is the state. They see that we are living independently of the entire society. They don't like that. They want everyone to be following their way of society. Prabhupāda: Why not our way of? If you want to enforce your way of life, why not I enforce my way of life? Then where is my independence? You cannot enforce your way of life. This is standard life. Devotee: The neighbors around the farm, they like us. Hari-śauri: Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja was saying that we're very popular with the neighbors there. Prabhupāda: That is good sign. Devotee: One farmer called his tractor the Hare Rāma tractor. Prabhupāda: (laughs) They are getting daily fresh vegetable, fresh milk. It is very palatable. Mādhavānanda: We wanted to have a cow here, but they won't allow one within the city limits. Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. The government is rākṣasa. So you have to take charge of the government. First of all make propaganda, the majority of population may (be) in favor of you. Then you'll get vote. This is the easiest process. If majority people likes, that "These Kṛṣṇa conscious men are very nice," then you make a candidate-"Vote for Kṛṣṇa conscious person, such and such." They'll vote. In this way, you'll capture the Senate, then government, then President's office. It is very.... At least, there must be majority of the people sympathizers of this movement. Then it will be successful. So you do everything exemplified, and people will vote. But it is difficult in this way, that "These people are prohibiting intoxication and gambling. How we can live without this?" That is the difficulty. They cannot imagine even that without these things one can live. Is it not? Hari-śauri: It's a fact. If you stop them doing that, they'll have no activity, just working. Rakṣaṇa: We should expand our New Bhakta program so that they can have weekend stays in āśramas, have practical experience. Prabhupāda: That they are coming. Mādhavānanda: [break] ...of birds. Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as there are trees, there will be birds. Hari-śauri: I saw a squirrel down there earlier on as well. Squirrels, there was one just down there earlier on. Prabhupāda: Ideal. Let there be an ideal section, our people, our men. And do your personal advancement. But that much.... If people come, it's all right. Otherwise, we must make our own life successful. Mādhavānanda: Once you wrote Gargamuni Swami in Nepal that even if they will not listen, simply by your being there, even if they see you chant japa sitting on a street corner, they will become Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Jayādvaita: We got a phone call today from someone in Kalamazoo*-it's many hours away. And he met some devotee in a store who was there for purchasing something, and just by talking for a few minutes he decided that he wanted to come here and see you in Detroit. So he was calling on the phone, when would you be here. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) If we get this land we can cultivate some grains, foodstuff. On account of this water facility you can grow so many things, vegetables, fruits, foodgrains, very nice. Keep cows. [break] Industrial civilization will fail. They are manufacturing simply cars. The time is approaching very swiftly when there will be no more demand for cars. Mādhavānanda: Already it's failing. They are making so many cars now, and people aren't purchasing. In the newspaper, you see big pictures of huge miles of lots of unsold cars. The whole motorcar business, industry, is going down. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have another trick. Now they make them very cheap so the cars will break down every year. Prabhupāda: But if I don't want it, either cheap or dear, who cares for it? If I don't want that. There was a statement by some Pope that "If the crown of England is offered to me at very cheap price, so why shall I accept it? What shall I do with it?" That is the..., that if I don't want a car.... Suppose if we advance our farming program, who will want the car? Theoretically, accept it, that we shall remain in the farm. Then where is the necessity of car? Mādhavānanda: Therefore the government will not like. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The government does not like it now because we are not going to eat meat, we are not accepting liquor, no gambling, no prostitution. So the government is already concerned. Theoretically, suppose these things are stopped, then where is the human civilization? Everything is finished. Because they have no other alternative. We have got*-Kṛṣṇa consciousness-but they haven't got. Mādhavānanda: They become bored very easily. If they do not have all the different material amusements, they become very bored and depressed. Prabhupāda: And we have got everything. We have got feasting, dancing, chanting, philosophy, clean and spotless life. Hari-śauri: Friendship, everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. No animal killing. We are not envious of anyone. Mādhavānanda: People come to the temple, and they say that it is like paradise here because there is no anxiety. Everyone is so happy and peaceful. Prabhupāda: So keep this standard. At least, people will be attracted; they will appreciate it. Don't minimize this temple; keep it nicely. Devotee: A boy said today it was like heaven on earth. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? That's nice. Jayādvaita: The only place I found some difficulty is that sometimes if there is some discrepancy in behavior of our students, some petty stealing or something like that, then that is... Prabhupāda: That you have to train our men so that they may be well behaved. Jayādvaita: In Laguna Beach we had so many complaints, that they were trying to stop the temple. And their main complaint was that the devotees were taking flowers from people's gardens and without any permission, without any, simply taking. And just on that account they wanted to stop us. Some petty stealing, fifty dollars worth of flowers. Prabhupāda: So why our devotees should take flowers from them? Stop it. Jayādvaita: Yes, I stopped it. Instead I sent a letter to the neighbors that no one is taking flowers and we are planting a big garden. Now they've done that, and the neighbors come and they appreciate that such a nice garden is there, they remark. Prabhupāda: You can make them friends, that "Your flowers in the garden will dry and fall down, so while it is fresh, if it is offered to God, and you'll get benefit out of it, why you object?" Yes. That's a fact. Jayādvaita: They'll do that, too. Prabhupāda: Yes, so convince them. They will be not enemy. Hari-śauri: We used to tell them that in Melbourne, but they said "Leave them alone 'cause we want to enjoy them." They said that they're in their gardens for their own enjoyment. Prabhupāda: They have no idea that why the flowers are taken. It is not for our enjoyment, for your enjoyment. When your flowers will be accepted by Kṛṣṇa, you'll be happy. Jayādvaita: It's a little difficult to explain afterwards. Instead of explaining before, that "Can we take," they would take and then explain. Prabhupāda: Yes, that you have to manage. That is preaching. What you'll do? I have seen that garden. There are lemons, apples; they are rotting and falling down. So while they can be used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose, why don't you give it? [break] ...too hot. At night, of course, it is not hot. They lie down in open place like this on a cot. Very pleasing sleeping. Mādhavānanda: This is their favorite place. Prabhupāda: All, they are living in the same tree? Mādhavānanda: Yes. Seven of them. Pālikā: These peacocks are very friendly here. They stay together. They lay here altogether in the sun. Prabhupāda: Birds of the same feather flock together. (laughter) Jayādvaita: By Ann Arbor temple there is one squirrel who comes to take prasāda from the devotees. He comes right up to them and takes some laḍḍu or something like that. Very fat squirrel. Prabhupāda: He knows that they'll not harm. Jayādvaita: Yes. Mādhavānanda: The neighbors say that every morning the peacocks wake them up. Passerby on a boat: Ahoy there! Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Mādhavānanda: What does ahoy mean? Prabhupāda: What they say? Mādhavānanda: Ahoy. Hari-śauri: It's a nautical form of greeting used by sailors. Mādhavānanda: It's a greeting. Prabhupāda: They'll come gradually. In that way, it is a very important place. There are so many people passing. Mādhavānanda: Today I was speaking to our lawyer on the phone, and I said we are very busy now, we're having a program here, our spiritual master is here. He said, "Yes, I heard. Some of my friends were driving past in a boat, and they saw three hundred devotees." So many respectable people come this way. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They are greeting, that means they are respectable gentlemen. So make friendship with them. Mādhavānanda: Yes, we can have a place here where they can stop and we can serve prasāda. Prabhupāda: No, that is our gateway? Mādhavānanda: Place there. Serve prasāda and preach. Prabhupāda: Yes, you invite them: "Come in, take prasāda." So out of inquisitiveness, they may come, and give them prasāda, show them temple. In this way.... Show them our books. Simply put there signboard, "Please come in and take prasāda." [break] ...and read our books, like that. The bird took a fish in that way? Mādhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: And fell and flew away. How quickly they can take. Everyone knows his business. That intelligence there everywhere. Āhāra nidrā bhayam maithunī, for these things, how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy sex and how to defend, everyone knows. You do not require to educate them. Only they cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is only possible by the human beings. Otherwise, other necessities of bodily, everyone knows. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovidaḥ. Every morning, this place should be washed with water. Then it will be very nice. Then we can sit down and chant all day and night, Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the wrong there? Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. Haridāsa Ṭhākura was doing that. But don't imitate. But I mean to say, if you do that, where is the problem? [break] ...I think you can acquire some land through the government for agriculture and cow protection. There are so many, so much vacant land. I think they will accept community proposal. Sometimes invite some important government officials; let them see what you are doing. Hari-śauri: Hmm. Like that congressman the other day. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: He was very impressed. Prabhupāda: Very much impressed. He's friendly, you can invite him again. He can introduce a law; he's a law officer. [break] ...charges. They may not think they will charge. And some pictures from our books. Signboard, book and pictures. There are some painters here? No painters? Well, there are so many painters. You can bring from Los Angeles. Mādhavānanda: Yes, I was thinking. Rakṣaṇa: Rādhāvallabha can set up like Māyāpura. They're all waterproofed and everything else there. Prabhupāda: Give them one big room. Mādhavānanda: I was thinking to ask Bharadvāja to come, because he... Prabhupāda: He's busy there, but somebody may go there and learn from Bharadvāja how to make dolls and prepare it here. One room. There are so many big, big rooms. Mādhavānanda: Yes, I was thinking. Prabhupāda: Make diorama. People will come to see. Mādhavānanda: They like those things very much. *Prabhupāda: Instead of so*-called library, reception, you make doll room. These big, big rooms. All big glass case... Mādhavānanda: Yes. They would like that very much. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mādhavānanda: Because already this is like a historic museum. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mādhavānanda: It's so beautiful. Prabhupāda: Yes. So in big glass case.... One girl saw me in Los Angeles. No? Hawaii. Hari-śauri: Candranibha? Prabhupāda: So she's not getting facility in Hawaii. She can come here with two, three assistants. There is so much place here. So correspond with... Mādhavānanda: Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Yes. Or ask our Govinda dāsī. Write one letter to Govinda dāsī, I'll sign, that "You can come with your assistants. Here is a very good scope for doll making and exhibit. And the place is very nice. You'll like." So many other girls they can also learn. Doll making is very easy. It is not difficult. Mādhavānanda: We have good facility here for it. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. The clay is soft here? Mādhavānanda: Well, usually they purchase clay, don't they? Bharadvāja's? Usually they purchase art clay in America. Prabhupāda: Oh. Fuller's earth. That is wanted, Fuller's earth. Mādhavānanda: Actually the previous owner of this house, he wanted to make this a restaurant, a very posh restaurant on the waterfront, and he applied for many, many months to get permission from the city. And finally he got it. So actually we have restaurant status here. It would be very easy for us to start a restaurant. People would come.... When people see the house, they are so amazed. *Hari-śauri: That would be a big attraction*-a waterside restaurant. Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes. Mādhavānanda: We could have tables and chairs on the grounds. Prabhupāda: No, we are not going to do that. Better make it a doll exhibition. And give them prasāda free. Restaurant in the city, that is all right. Not here. Nobody will come to the restaurant from the city. That is not possible. But we give them free prasāda. (japa) [break] Makhanlāl: ...Prabhupāda, you mentioned that soon there will not be so much use for automobiles. What will be our means of spreading the saṅkīrtana movement? Prabhupāda: We shall walk. You'll have good exercise. (laughter) Makhanlāl: By oxcart also? Prabhupāda: If possible; if not, walk. What is that? Hari-śauri: Maybe we can develop some mystic opulence and walk on the water. *Prabhupāda: Here, in this world, everything has got six changes. Birth, then stay, and then develop, then by*-products, then dwindle, then finish. Everything. So the motorcar civilization, it was born. And now the time has come it is dwindling, and it will be finished. Just like railway; railway no more interested, anybody. But when it was invented, it was very important. Now it is useless. That is the nature of everything here in this material world. It cannot be permanent benefit. That they do not know. They become very enthusiastic when some new thing is born. Child is born, I am very happy. The same child, when he's dead, I am unhappy. But one must know: what is born, it will die. So everything material has got a period of development, then it dwindles, and then finishes. So from this nature's law, we can see this motorcar attraction, utility, it will finish. It will not stay. Mādhavānanda: Now everyone wants to travel by air. In some large cities, the airports are so crowded, there is so much traffic overhead, that now they have to develop means of... Prabhupāda: All accident takes place while coming down. Or while going up. On the sky there is no danger. Devotee: They call it traffic control system in the sky. Just like there is traffic on the road, they call it the traffic control system. They have so much traffic in the air. Prabhupāda: What they control? Hari-śauri: They keep them flying around the airport until there's room for them to come in. Prabhupāda: That already they are doing. When there is no space, they send news, that "Don't come down." So they come like this. Devotee: They have been known to hit in the air. *Mādhavānanda: Māyā*-sukhāya. Prabhupāda: So the airport is also becoming a problem. Hari-śauri: Everything's a problem without Kṛṣṇa. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: When we are traveling on the road we see so much land not used. And we think "Why not take everyone out of the factories, let them plant fruit and flower trees along the roads all over the country and build beautiful ponds. So everyone can bathe when they walk, for refreshment." Just like in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. I think Nṛsiṁha Brahmacārī, he was building a road for Lord Caitanya, very nicely. Prabhupāda: No, they will create slaughterhouse, brothel, then liquor shop, gambling house. That's all. *Mādhavānanda: This is our biggest book distributor of the men*-Pañca-tattva dāsa. One day in the airport he distributed three hundred Śrīmad-Bhāgavatams in one day. That is the record. *Prabhupāda: Hardbound Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam? *Pañca*-tattva: Yes. Prabhupāda: How did you sell so many? Unless you have got supernatural power. Mādhavānanda: Kṛṣṇa empowered him. Prabhupāda: Actually, it is not.... It is uncommon. Mādhavānanda: Many amazing things happen when we are distributing books. People come up to us, and they say, "No, I will not take your book. I will tell you now that I will not take your book. If you want me to read your book, then I will read it, but I will not give you any money." And we say, "All right, please read it, please read the book and tell us what you think." And they say "All right." And we say "Oh, please give a donation." And they say, "No, I cannot give a donation." And we say, "All right, but please read the book." He says: "All right." "Oh, and give a donation." And they say, "All right, I'll give a donation." (laughter) Prabhupāda: And you give the book? Mādhavānanda: Yes. It is like magic. Kṛṣṇa is trying to help them also. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One big lawyer, he is fighting us for not going to the airports. He is working for the airlines. So he was going on a pleasure trip to Las Vegas from New York. So his friend gave him five dollars and said, "When you come to a good charity, give this*-it will give you good luck." So he took the five dollars, got on the plane, went to Las Vegas, gets off the plane, goes into the terminal, and a young man comes up to him, says, "We are doing very good work. Please give a donation." He said, "Oh, my friend has given me five dollars, so here is a good cause." Gives the five dollars to the boy, he said: "Oh, here, take this book also." So he, "All right." He goes and sits in the car, opens the book, he said, "Oh, no! It is the Hare Kṛṣṇas! I have been tricked." This story was told by Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja's parents. Their friend was the lawyer. So Kṛṣṇa is benedicting everyone, even the enemies. [break] Mādhavānanda: Sometimes the karmī salesmen, they stand around to watch us distribute books. Because they are so amazed at our techniques of sale and distribution, they want to learn. Jayādvaita: They become very respectful. They don't know anything about our philosophy, but they see how nicely we... Prabhupāda: Good salesmen. Mādhavānanda: Yes. And sometimes they even offer jobs to the devotee, that "You come and work for me. You will be salesman for my..." *Prabhupāda: "And what nonsense book you have got? (laughter) We are going to stop your sales." Tell them. "And we are going to stop your sales. Instead of helping you for selling your books, we are going to stop all these nonsense books. That is our mission." Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham. That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo jagat-pavitraṁ pragṛṇīta karhicit, tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham uśanti mānasāḥ [SB 1.5.10]. That verse, that however nicely it is written with..., what is called, metaphor, poetic ornaments and very good language, grammatical set-up, and so on, so on. So that, although it is very nicely written from literary point of view, but because it does not contain any glorification of Kṛṣṇa, it is just like the spot where the crows take pleasure. Crows. The crows means they go the nasty place where all nasty things are thrown. They take pleasure there. So all these other literatures, they are meant for the crows. And this literature is meant for the swan, paramahaṁsa, white swans. So it is not the bodily color. It means those who are advanced in their development of life, consciousness, it is meant for them. It is not for the crows, who are still eating all nasty things in the garbage. Crows, they do that. They take pleasure where there are garbage, all nasty things and.... And the big swans, they will like water like this, garden like this. That is.... Even in the lower animals, there is difference between the crow's society and swan's society. (police car sounds) What is this? Mādhavānanda: Police car. Prabhupāda: Oh? Police cars very often visit this quarter? Mādhavānanda: No. Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? It's nine o'clock. Prabhupāda: It may be ten o'clock. (laughter) What is the difference when here and there? (Prabhupāda laughs) Just like a blind man, he's sleeping, now his son is getting, "Please rise, it is now morning." So he said, "For me, morning and evening is the same thing. I am blind." Kebā rātra kebā din. "For me, there is no difference between day and night, because I cannot see anything." Rakṣaṇa: Because you see only Kṛṣṇa all the time, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it doesn't matter whether you're in the room or in the garden. Prabhupāda: So you want to see something other than, better than Kṛṣṇa? So ārati time is now? No. If you have to go, you can go. Hari-śauri: No. The main ārati is finished at seven o'clock. (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 14, 1976, Detroit Prabhupāda: ...point out material development of civilization is artificial. It is not meant for that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is patchwork. Prabhupāda: India has been frustrated. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, you mention in the First Canto how it was predicted that certain different peoples, they would conquer India. This was predicted in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So these troubles they were foreseeing? Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The troubles that India is going through today, they were foreseeing over five thousand years ago, that the Muslims would invade, the Turks? Prabhupāda: Yes. The Englishman would invade. That is also... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Greeks. Prabhupāda: In the Twelfth Canto. Devotee (1): I think Candragupta's name is also.... The last emperor of India. [break] ...fighting between the demons and the demigods, the demons brought mountain and it was in fire, the jungle, and it was split by dynamite, and all the stones fell down on the enemies. Where is that war plan? Bring the mountain on the head of the enemies and split it by dynamite, and it will.... [break] This information is there, that dynamite was there, and it was used for breaking mountain. Fighting was taking place. Not in this planet, upper planet. Hari-śauri: This is in connection with the churning of the ocean? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it actually possible for the demons to win? Prabhupāda: Sometimes. When there is fighting, both the parties will have chance to win. What is this? [break] Devotee (1): ...degraded activity in the public parks. Fighting and intoxications and all kinds of nonsense. Just like animals. [break] Devotee (2): And there were so many people that we decided that next weekend we'll come and distribute magazines and incense. *Makhanlāl: In the Bhagavad*-gītā, Eighteenth Chapter, 54th verse, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54], it says that the person in brahma-bhūtaḥ realization at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. If the devotee is situated on the platform of the brahma-bhūtaḥ, but he may not necessarily see everything as Brahman, does that mean that his realization is by intelligence, and by his activity, or what does that mean? Prabhupāda: Realization of spiritual identification. Makhanlāl: Realization of spiritual life? Prabhupāda: Identity. Makhanlāl: Identity? [break] Brahman realization for the devotee in the beginning is just that he realizes his constitutional position as servant of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is next. First of all, that "I am not this body." That is Brahman realization. Makhanlāl: So we may only be partially situated in that realization in our present level of devotional service. *Prabhupāda: You realize or not realize, if you remain on the platform, that is same. [break] ...in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is brahma*-bhūtaḥ stage. [break] Makhanlāl: ...says that such a person never laments nor desires anything. So... Prabhupāda: Yes. If you realize that you are servant of Kṛṣṇa, where is lamentation? Makhanlāl: Due to māyā's influence, a devotee may sometimes materially lament. Prabhupāda: That you have to struggle. Tapasā brahmacāryeṇa [SB 6.1.13]. That is called tapasya. But if you stick to devotional service, māyā will not be able to touch you. Makhanlāl: The māyā that harasses the devotee is just mental concoction, then? He should concentrate on just serving? Prabhupāda: Māyā's harassing, that means you are not in devotional service. It is not concoction; it is fact. Devotee (1): (indistinct) We're having a lot of trouble distributing books in the airports now. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the difficulty? Devotee (1): It just seems legal problems. People don't like us there. Mādhavānanda: People are opposing more. As our movement grows more and more, people want to check. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): ...trying to get it open in the terminals, and there's a possibility of maybe getting forty devotees inside the airport to distribute your books. Prabhupāda: So, that is favorable. [break] *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: ...so powerful, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that all over the country young men are running away from home. We have one fifteen*-year-old boy, he left everything after getting a book in a parking lot. Another boy is a sculptor, an artist. He's also runaway, seventeen years old. Just like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, once he was attracted by Lord Caitanya's movement, nothing could keep him at home. So all the young men of America, as they read your books, will come and join us. Prabhupāda: Our books are prescribed as textbook in Hamburg University. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eastern Berlin. Prabhupāda: East Berlin. As Sanskrit text. Devotees: Jaya. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? When we're distributing on this program, we go to very small towns where people are not very much exposed to the degradedness of the big cities, and we're having great success with the people because they are a little more innocent. But we're having a problem with this other group that goes around, and they do saṅkīrtana just like us, but for māyā. And then when we go in the parking... Prabhupāda: They chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Devotee (1): No. Prabhupāda: Then, that is not possible. (laughter) Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They'll not last. Devotee (1): But Śrīla Prabhupāda, they mistake us. When we go up and approach them with our books, they think, "Oh, you are this rascal." They know he's a cheater. And it's causing a lot of difficulty with our distribution. I was just wondering what we can do about it. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Satsvarūpa: This Moon group? Devotee: Moon, yes. Interfering with some... Mādhavānanda: Preaching is never easy. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda said on one tape that.... Somebody said it was difficulty. He said, "When there's fighting, you can't expect it to be easy." [break] Makhanlāl: There are many different levels of pure devotional service? Prabhupāda: Pure devotional service is one. So long you are not on the pure platform, there are many. [break] Makhanlāl: ...between the neophyte devotee who is following the principles. Prabhupāda: Neophyte devotee is not on the topmost platform. He's learning. (loud foghorn blowing in background) *Makhanlāl: So a neophyte devotee who's following the principles of sādhana*-bhakti is still considered pure devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Makhanlāl: So at different levels of advancement of pure devotional service. *Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda once gave the example of a mango, that when the mango is raw, it's still a mango. Then it becomes ripe*-also a mango. So pure devotional service is different when we begin. Prabhupāda: So raw condition and ripe condition is not the same. The mango is the same. Devotee (1): The captain of that boat must know that you're here on the island today, because those whistles that he just blew were salutes. It's a master salute from the best man to the best man. He must know that you are here. Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! Makhanlāl: In the Sixth Canto of the *Bhāgavatam* you made a statement that if a devotee chants the holy name even once inoffensively, this protects him eternally. Is it possible for a devotee... Prabhupāda: Why you take advantage of chants one only? Why not sixteen? Opportunist. (laughter) Not devotee. Makhanlāl: If one has even a small amount... *Prabhupāda: This material calculation is not made by a devotee. When one is devotee, he'll chant more and more. He'll aspire, "If I could get millions of tongues and trillions of ear, then I could finish. That is devotee. And one is thinking how to finish it by chanting once, he's not devotee. That is neophyte stage. Therefore the regulation is you must chant sixteen rounds at least. Because he'll simply try to avoid it by his so*-called intelligence. Makhanlāl: It's possible for even a neophyte to chant offenselessly? Prabhupāda: Not possible, but he has to do it. This is offense, to think that "I have chanted once; *my all sinful activities are now neutralized." This is offense. Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa*-buddhiḥ. This is the offense. [break] Makhanlāl: Chanting, following the orders of the spiritual master... Prabhupāda: That's all right. No calculation. Makhanlāl: Is that considered offenseless chanting? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. You follow strictly the instructions. If you commit offense, how it is offenseless? Makhanlāl: It's considered offenseless if, chanting, if one follows the orders of the spiritual master carefully? Prabhupāda: There may be offense. You should go on chanting. That will be adjusted as you advance in chanting. Harer nāma harer nāma, harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Simply go on chanting. We shall see later on what is offense and not offense. (laughter) Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, not for any profit. But go on serving Him. That's all. Material calculation, "Now, this much I have profited..." [break] .... there is no animal? Devotee (1): This jungle? Prabhupāda: There are some deers. Ambarīṣa: Yes. Yes. I just saw a raccoon just now when I was getting the car. There are some in there. Prabhupāda: There is no monkey? Ambarīṣa: (laughter) No. [break] Satsvarūpa: No monkey in the United States. [break] "Nature Center" it says. Prabhupāda: Nature? Satsvarūpa: You know what that is, Ambarīṣa? Ambarīṣa: No, I don't know. I have no idea. [break] Prabhupāda: ...monkey. Hari-śauri: It's a bit odd. They're busy building new attractions for the park, but they can't even keep the place clean. Everything is completely dirty and run down. No one will want to come anyway. They do that, though. They have a certain amount of things that they construct new so that the people will be thinking, "Oh, our taxes have been spent for our benefit like this." It's to make a show. [break] Prabhupāda: ...is Canada? Ambarīṣa: No, this side over here. Devotee (1): Way over there. Prabhupāda: What is this? Satsvarūpa: Detroit Yacht Club. Boat owners. [break] ...by some Catholic monks who were keeping some drug rehabilitation. They were leasing it from us. We still have a lease to the owner. So they are subleasing it. [break] Prabhupāda: ...to stop drug habit? *Satsvarūpa: Yes. They have.... People who are addicted, they come and live there voluntarily and say "I'd like to try to stop." They call it "half*-way house," because they are half still addicted, but they're trying to stop. So maybe six of such addicts are living... Prabhupāda: Only six. Satsvarūpa: Yes, not many. Here's the place, right here. And some monks live there, and somehow or other they try to get them to stop. Prabhupāda: Which year I came first? Bhagavān was in charge. Ambarīṣa: I think it was six years ago from last year. So that would be '69. Prabhupāda: At that time I'll see, here is the signboard "For Sale." Satsvarūpa: Same one. Prabhupāda: No one is purchasing. Why? Suggested Bhagavān that "Why don't you purchase this land?" I see the same signboard is still going on (indistinct). Ambarīṣa: Nobody wants to buy property on this street. It's very dangerous and rundown. Prabhupāda: Similarly, in that quarter where we have got our temple, the same position. Therefore we got cheap. (laughs) Otherwise, it is very costly building. Satsvarūpa: We did not even want to take you down there last year to see it. We thought it is out of the question. And you said, "There's nothing to be afraid of. Just hold kīrtana there." Prabhupāda: Yes. People are coming. Yesterday many gentlemen. Gradually you purchase that side land. Mādhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we had so many people yesterday. We had about two hundred people in the temple room and three hundred people outside waiting in line for prasāda. Satsvarūpa: They were all wandering around the grounds. It was very pleasant. So many people taking here and there, preaching. Prabhupāda: That house is exactly suitable for our purpose in every way. It was Kṛṣṇa's desire. Hari-śauri: Even the people that passed on the boat stopped. We preached to them as well. Mādhavānanda: I was thinking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it would be nice to have dioramas. Prabhupāda: First of all, give some signboard. Mādhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then dioramas. Mādhavānanda: All right. (end) *Room Conversationwith Ambaréña and Catholic Priest-*-June 14, 1976, Detroit Śrutikīrti: We took a few pictures that you could see. We took some pictures for you to look at of the restaurant. It's still being built, so there's not actually that much to see. This street that it's on is very heavily traveled all day. This is taken at about five o'clock in the morning, so there's no one there. It's still under construction, you can see all the cinderblocks inside. But it's all glass building. Prabhupāda: It is being rented or purchased? Śrutikīrti: That's still being worked out. I think... Ambarīṣa: I think we're going to purchase. Śrutikīrti: I think Ambarīṣa is purchasing. Prabhupāda: The back building? That is a different building? Śrutikīrti: No, yeah. This is condominiums, houses, for people living above, so the restaurant is just that one floor. That's what we would be purchasing, not the whole building. Ambarīṣa: The kitchen is inside the big building. *Śrutikīrti: But it's very choice space. It's just two blocks from what's called the Ritz Hotel, which is most famous hotel in the country, they have in every large city. These pictures, that glassed*-in area, that would all be just the serving area. Then the kitchen is behind the wall. There would be a large kitchen facility, where all the devotees would be cooking. Prabhupāda: Kitchen is within the building? Śrutikīrti and Ambarīṣa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So one*-story building also included? *Ambarīṣa: Yes, there's a kitchen and dish*-washing room and office, storage... Śrutikīrti: All inside. Prabhupāda: Nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Did you explain that it was being built for someone who was going to start a restaurant, but they didn't? Śrutikīrti: Yes. They ran out of money, these people, and there were so many restrictions at this location because of these buildings here. People live there, and they didn't want anyone in there who was going to cook meat. And they didn't want anyone who was going to serve intoxication. So practically we're the only people that don't serve meat and intoxication. So actually they're very glad. Ambarīṣa: The man who owns it says he gets fifty phone calls every day from people who want that space. It's such a good space that fifty people a day call. Prabhupāda: Fifty? Śrutikīrti: People are very interested, the location is excellent. It's on one of the most important streets in all of Boston. Ambarīṣa: Once we get open we'll be able to serve a thousand people a day. Prabhupāda: Oh. And what you are charging? Ambarīṣa: We're charging anywhere between three and eight dollars. Eight dollars for a very big, many preparations and different nectars and very sumptuous feast for eight dollars. And then if you just want a sandwich or something a little smaller you can pay just three dollars. We think we'll be making about half a million dollars a year, which will all go to you, Prabhupāda. (laughter) Devotee: So we couldn't call the restaurant the "Hare Kṛṣṇa Restaurant" because there were some restrictions in the block, so we were thinking we'd call it "Saṅkīrtana." That's okay? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They are Hare Kṛṣṇa phobia; they are afraid. Śrutikīrti and Ambarīṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have suggested "Saṅkīrtana"? Ambarīṣa: Yes, they think that is nice. They do not know what that means. Prabhupāda: Just like our Haridāsa. You know Haridāsa? Bombay? *Ambarīṣa: Yes, uh*-huh. Prabhupāda: He, Moscow, he was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa on the street, and when people asked "What is this?" "This is cinema song." Ambarīṣa: Sometimes as devotees we have to be a little bit crooked. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) We shall do everything as the material person does, karmīs do, but we have to do everything for Kṛṣṇa, not person. Then it is all right. So? Śrutikīrti: There's one thing, our best hours, some of the best business in the restaurant, would be very late at night, like between nine to eleven o'clock at night. So is that all right as long as we can arrange... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Śrutikīrti: ...everyone's following the program? People are up 'til midnight. Ambarīṣa: Still they will come to the morning program. Prabhupāda: But there will be picture of Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Ambarīṣa: Yes. *Śrutikīrti: A nice altar, small altar, Pañca*-tattva. Ambarīṣa: The temple is only one block away. We were wondering, should we offer the food to the Deities in the temple or should we offer it in the restaurant? Prabhupāda: Better in the restaurant. Ambarīṣa: Better in the restaurant. Yes, that is a little easier also. Prabhupāda: They must know that they're eating prasādam. Ambarīṣa: Yes, yes. Śrutikīrti: There was one other thing. Mānasvī, he is outside of New York. And I don't know very much what his position is. I talked to him once, he wanted to see you in New York. I don't know if you know that. Because he says that all these things are not true. No. *Prabhupāda: He's a thief. He has taken about twenty*-five thousand dollars. He's a thief from the very beginning. What he is doing now? Śrutikīrti: He's working two jobs. They won't allow him in the temple. I think you sent one letter or something. Prabhupāda: No, he should not be admitted. *Ambarīṣa: Also in Boston there's a lady who may be donating a million*-dollar farm to the Boston Temple. This is just a project that's a little bit..., that's just started, and she wants to donate her farm. So that is also going on, and also the temple is purchasing the building next door. I gave them some money for a down payment on it so they could buy the building next door to use it to house the people that are living in the restaurant and also for the Bhaktivedanta Institute, because I think the Bhaktivedanta Institute is going to be in Boston. Mādhava is there. Prabhupāda: Yes, Boston is nice place for the Institute. Śrutikīrti: Best place for it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's the educational center of America. Ambarīṣa: Academic center of the United States. So now we are fixing up the temple very nicely. We've spent about fifty thousand dollars putting in all new tile floor and a beautiful new onyx altar. Very, very gorgeous. Prabhupāda: So it is framework or solid building? Ambarīṣa: The building? It's stone, brownstone. Prabhupāda: Oh, then it's nice. Ambarīṣa: Very sound. Śrutikīrti: It's in a very nice area in Boston. Commonwealth Avenue was the most aristocratic street in Boston. The temple is right there, just one block from downtown. Prabhupāda: Near Commonwealth Pier? Śrutikīrti: Near Boston Commons. Boston Commons? The big park. Prabhupāda: Not park, there is a pier, pier (pronounces "pire") what do you call? Ambarīṣa: Oh, pier, pier. Oh, yes, it is near there, Prabhupāda, that's where you landed. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) *Ambarīṣa: Yes, it is not far. We're having Ratha*-yātrā in Boston for the first time this year, and we're going to take the Ratha carts down to Commonwealth Pier in honor of your arrival. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) There is one A.P. store? Ambarīṣa: A P? *Prabhupāda: A*-P, A-P store. Ambarīṣa: Market? Yes, it's still there. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I saw first. (laughter) I remember. Ambarīṣa: So there are many nice projects going on in Boston. We are hoping that maybe sometime you can come. That would be very nice. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. From New York it is not... *Ambarīṣa: No, it is very close to New York, half*-hour airplane ride. Prabhupāda: So it is ready? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We were talking about different names for the restaurant yesterday. Śrutikīrti: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja did not care for "Saṅkīrtana Restaurant." (laughs) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I thought that there might be a name of Kṛṣṇa, like they were using "Govinda," but that's obviously a name for Kṛṣṇa. Because people don't... *Ambarīṣa: We wanted to have a name that was Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, just, exclusively Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So we thought "Saṅkīrtana." No other movement, we're the saṅkīrtana movement. So we thought that name would show that it was exclusively Hare Kṛṣṇa, whereas many other Indians they have named their store "Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Store," stuff like this. So we thought... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Something perhaps more exotic. I was just thinking as a restaurant. Ambarīṣa: We wanted something that was exclusively... Prabhupāda: They have started "Govinda's"? Ambarīṣa: Yes, that is in Hawaii. Yes. Prabhupāda: Govinda's name is nice. Śrutikīrti: Yes, I always liked. Now Laguna Beach they are also calling it "Govinda's." Prabhupāda: Yes, so why not continue this "Govinda's"? Ambarīṣa: Yes, we could, okay. Śrutikīrti: It's very good publicity. If many are started, they are all "Govinda's," then everyone will recognize it. Ambarīṣa: Okay, there is no difficulty. *Prabhupāda: Govindam ādi*-puruṣam. So that's all right, "Govinda's." Ambarīṣa: OK. (pause) Śrutikīrti: Hari-śauri looks like he can give a very good massage. He looks like he can give a very good massage. Prabhupāda: Mmm. Hari-śauri's one defect is he cannot cook. (laughter) Otherwise he is duplicate. Except cooking. He knows very good cooking. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He can eat though. He can eat prasāda. Śrutikīrti: So I can travel and cook? Prabhupāda: Cooking and.... A young man must eat. Why one should be like me? Śrutikīrti and Ambarīṣa: Jaya. Jaya, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] (tape continues after guest's entrance) Stansky: ...the very best. Prabhupāda: Yes. Stansky: I'm very, very pleased. I (indistinct) of the bus (indistinct) with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: So just work cooperatively for the benefit of human society. We were just discussing our so many things. (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:) You can explain what I was talking. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How the present civilization is.... Just like here in Detroit, producing so many cars. Prabhupāda: (Hindi to Indian girl) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how long can this civilization go on, simply producing automobiles, like this? So the situation is that the people are always in a state of poverty. Just like the black people here in Detroit. Even they are making sufficient money, still they are always in a state of poverty because they don't know how to live. Prabhupāda related one story that the capitalist and the worker, both of them, they went to the goddess of fortune appealing for a benediction. So the capitalist asked, "Give me such money that I will be able to work one day and it will last me for six months." And then the worker, he went and he said, "Give me one thousand dollars I have every day to spend." Prabhupāda: No, he said that "Give me the same money as the capitalist will spend in six months. I shall spend every day. I shall get that money every day and I shall spend it." So this worker class, there is no culture. You may pay them heavy amount of money, but they will spend it and remain a poor man. Because he has no culture. Stansky: This is true. *Prabhupāda: You see this black men. They earn sufficient money, but see their home. See their home. You America, you have given them equal rights, they are getting money, but they have no culture. Therefore you may pay them as much as you like, but still poverty*-stricken. In Africa also I have seen that they have got their own kingdom, independence, but if we go to the African slums, they are poverty-stricken, wretched. So this civilization will not endure. If there is no culture, simply by money you cannot maintain a standard of civilization. That is not possible. Now the American leaders they are thinking, "Let us have money, then everything..." Of course, by money you are covering all the defects of the social culture. But this will not endure. Day will come and everything will be exposed. Therefore culture required. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda was explaining how in India even the poorest people, they live, husband, wife, family, like this, in very... Prabhupāda: Happy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...simple quarters. Prabhupāda: Happily they live. As soon as there is no quarrel between the husband and wife, the home will be happy. And as soon as there is misunderstanding between husband, wife, it will be hell. So the principle is the husband honestly tries to earn livelihood, and at home the wife should be so intelligent that whatever money the husband has earned, she'll manage. She'll not demand, "Bring money, bring money, bring money. Otherwise it cannot be..." Then the home will be happy. So where is that training? Stansky: Well, there is no training here, there is no culture, as you pointed out. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say culture, not training. Stansky: As a matter of fact, even among the educated classes in the United States, there is no culture. There are no cultural roots. *Prabhupāda: No, no culture. There is no culture. There is no standard social life. Simply hodgepodge. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to bring everything in proper order. Everything is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. So America is the leading nation of the world. If you work on the principle of Bhagavad-gītā and train up your people, it will be ideal state and example for the whole world. At least a certain section of the American population should be ideal. That will also do. Not that..., we cannot expect cent percent will take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not needed. But if there is one section of the people ideal, that will be followed. We want to create that section, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Stansky: May I pose a question, Your Grace? It's less than two weeks that I'm asking you for the second time to instruct me. You gave me some very general instructions in my last audience, and I'm very grateful. Many things have transpired since then. I'm now here in Detroit; we'll be going on to Toronto very shortly. From Toronto to Chicago, and then I'm not sure what the agenda is. I'm tremendously pleased because it's giving me an opportunity to work in the area that you said I should be working in. In addition to which I have ample time to study. And I have the assistance of Satsvarūpa with my studies. Now I have a question. I would like to keep a log of my daily activities and start preparing an outline of a book. Now the book very basically won't.... I won't be starting on the book for at least a year, but I would like to start keeping a log. Prabhupāda: You can keep record. Stansky: Yes. Now the reason I would like to keep a log and prepare an outline and start a book, say a year from now, it would show a transition from Roman priesthood to Hare Kṛṣṇa devotee. I think this would open up the door to all of the colleges and universities across the country. Prabhupāda: Very good idea, yes. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. The nature is if we get better engagement, we give up inferior engagement. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. So this will be an example. You are a Roman priest. You are educated, learned scholar also. So when you come to this movement, you do not come here by sentiment or by whims. You consider, then you have come. Stansky: This is what I wanted to say, that I'm not here because of sentiment. I'm here for very, very sound reasons, and I want to explain the reasons. *Prabhupāda: Therefore we are presenting these books, that we are not a so*-called sect of whimsical faith. It is based on science and authorities. Recently we have got report that our books have been taken in Hamburg University. You know Hamburg University? Stansky: Yes. Prabhupāda: As their textbook for Sanskrit class. They found it so wonderful. Because for Sanskrit scholar it is good opportunity to learn Sanskrit, because each word we have given in English and German synonyms. Stansky: I want very much to learn basic Sanskrit, but I have so much to learn right now that ah,... Prabhupāda: No, it is not necessary, but those who are interested in studying Sanskrit literature, for them it is very good help. And at the same time they get sublime knowledge. They study Sanskrit and get knowledge. So you have kindly come to join us. You study our philosophy very minutely and then try to do something for the suffering humanity. The saintly persons, at least in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement, they are not meant for idle life. They are always busy for the welfare of the whole human society. This is the sign of saintly person. They are misguided and they are suffering, and it is the duty of the saintly person to give them instruction, education, how they can become really happy and make their life successful. This is saintly person. A saintly person doesn't mean to live at other's expenditure and do all nonsense things. This is not saintly person. Hm. (Hindi) [break] You asked me some question? Stansky: I wanted to know whether it would be all right to keep the log and to write at the..., work out the outline for the book. You told me to go ahead. So I will do that. Basically, this is what I wanted to do. I would like to continue with the group. I would like to travel with the group and keep an accurate log and start an outline and see possibly within a year's time I will have sufficient material to start the book. Prabhupāda: That's nice, huh? You like this idea? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) These boys who are working for this movement? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How do you like our men, the devotees? Stansky: Oh, I'm very, very impressed. This impressed me to begin with, their enthusiasm, their joy, and their complete surrender. This is what... Prabhupāda: This is the qualification. Stansky: This is the qualification. *Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau [ŚU 6.23]. That is the secret of success. If one has got unflinching faith in his spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, then he's successful. Two things. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā-pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. So if the guru is false, then how they can keep their faith? That will be broken. Our process is very simple. There is no difficulty. You have seen our Los Angeles temple? When we purchased, it was a church, perhaps you know. Nobody was coming, so that they were obliged to sell. They started this Sunday class, this, that, so many things. In Melbourne also we have seen a big.... What was that? Hari-śauri: It used to be what they call a Christian Brothers school. Prabhupāda: That we wanted to purchase? Hari-śauri: Oh, that nunnery. Prabhupāda: Nunnery. So they wanted to maintain themselves by becoming washermen. Still, they could not maintain. They eventually became washerwoman to maintain. Huge establishment. So I wanted, negotiation was there. They persisted that the church should not be broken. No? To be broken. Hari-śauri: Yes, there were different sections. They had a school there and,... Prabhupāda: So we thought that we shall use it as temple. That they disagreed. "No, you cannot keep it, you have to break it, then we can sell to you." Then why shall I break it? We shall pay for it and break it? No. Then the negotiation failed. But a huge land, and we are prepared to purchase. In England, in London, I was..., one, two churches I was negotiating, and one church, that man, he said, "I'll burn into ashes. I'll not sell it to Bhaktivedanta." (laughs) Recently we wanted to purchase in St. James Park one nice house. So they did not give us. They..., we offered better price; still they did not give us. Stansky: Your Grace, the thing that impressed me the very most at the temple in Los Angeles.... Now you must bear in mind that I am very, very steeped in Catholicism, I'm very steeped in the New Testament. So when I observed what was happening at the temple in Los Angeles, I was seeing the Book of Acts coming to life. Something that died three hundred years ago in the Roman church. In 300 A.D. it died. Since then there's been no such example. And I was just amazed wandering around because there I saw the exact, the Book of Acts. And I was impressed. Indian girl: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: That's all right. Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Garden Conversation-*-June 15, 1976, Detroit (rain falls throughout) Prabhupāda: Just rub your finger. You'll find so many (indistinct). Nobody can get in the (indistinct), huh? (japa) (pause) (peacocks calling) [break] ...far away the peacock? Hari-śauri: On the other side. Prabhupāda: Within our area? No. *Hari-śauri: He said they stopped. This is Chapter Two, Bhagavad*-gītā. (reads from Chapter Two, text 1 through 6) You want to go in, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Let the rain fall. (laughter) Hari-śauri: (continues reading; Prabhupāda says something and devotees laugh) [break] Jayādvaita: *"Nor do we know which is better*-conquering them or being conquered by them. The sons of Dhṛtarāṣṭra, whom if we killed we should not care to live..." Prabhupāda: Disturbing? (laughs) They can come here, that side. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They were going to guard you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Guard me? Why? Dhṛṣṭadyumna (children come in): From the rain. Prabhupāda: No. It is all right. You sit down. It is fine, you can sit. No, no. Hari-śauri: Sit over this side. "By nature's own way the complete system of material activities is a source of perplexity for everyone. In every step there is perplexity, and therefore it behooves one to approach a bona fide spiritual master who can give one proper guidance for executing the purpose of life. All Vedic literatures advise us to approach a bona fide spiritual master to get free from the perplexities of life, which happen without our desire." Prabhupāda: Now you can discuss among yourselves whether you have approached such spiritual master. What is that? This purport? Jayādvaita: Read again. "Therefore it behooves one to approach a bona fide spiritual master who can give one proper guidance for executing the purpose of life. All Vedic literatures advise us to approach a bona fide spiritual master to get free from the perplexities of life, which happen without our desire." Prabhupāda: So, whether you have approached such spiritual master, that you can discuss. This is the necessity of approaching a spiritual master. Jayādvaita: Necessity. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. It must. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. *Jayādvaita: Śrotriyaṁ brahma*-niṣṭham. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So, whether you have got such spiritual master who can guide you, proper guidance, what is stated there? Jayādvaita: What is stated next? Prabhupāda: No. Jayādvaita: Oh, whether we've got such a spiritual master? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayādvaita: Oh, yes, because... Prabhupāda: That you have to discuss. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: It says the qualification is that he frees one from all the perplexities of life. So we are practically experiencing that, that by following the instructions of our spiritual master all our perplexities are vanished. *Hari-śauri: Saṁsāra*-dāvānala-līḍha-loka **. There's one tape, you describe the very first thing when one follows the instructions of a spiritual master is that he's freed from all different kinds of material difficulties. He immediately feels some relief from material existence. First sign of a bona fide spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Go on reading. Jayādvaita.: "Material perplexities are like a forest fire that somehow blazes without being set by anyone. Similarly, the world situation is such that perplexities of life automatically appear, without our wanting such confusion. No one wants fire, and yet it takes place and we become perplexed. The Vedic wisdom therefore advises that in order to solve the perplexities of life and to understand the science of the solution, one must approach a bona fide spiritual master who is in the disciplic succession. A person with a bona fide spiritual master is supposed to know everything. One should not therefore remain in material perplexities but should approach a spiritual master. This is the purport of this verse. Who is the man in material perplexities? It is he who does not understand the problems of life. In the Bṛhad-āraṇyaka Upaniṣad the perplexed man is described as follows: yo vā etad akṣaraṁ gārgy aviditvāsmāl lokāt praiti sa kṛpaṇaḥ." Prabhupāda: Yad viditvā yaḥ prayāti sa brāhmaṇa, etad avidyāt yaḥ prayāti sa eva kṛpaṇaḥ. Read. *Jayādvaita: " 'He is a miserly man who does not solve the problems of life as a human and who thus quits this world like the cats and dogs, without understanding the science of self*-realization.' This human form of life is a most valuable asset for the living entity, who can utilize it for solving the problems of life; therefore, one who does not utilize this opportunity properly is a miser. On the other hand, there is the brāhmaṇa..." Prabhupāda: They do not know even what are the problems of life. People are so uneducated, they do not know even what are the problems of life. They do not know. What generally people think the problems of life? Hari-śauri: How to get more money, how to get more sense gratification. That's the main problem. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Your America has got so much money. Has it solved all the problems? Our Ambarīṣa Mahārāja will answer. Ambarīṣa: What is the question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Question is that your forefathers and fathers have got so much money, whether it has solved the problems of life? Ambarīṣa: No, it hasn't solved any of their problems. It has multiplied them. (laughter) Prabhupāda: He is the best.... He could have personally owned this palace and lived very luxuriously. He has got the means. But he did not like that. He gave it to the Vaiṣṇavas. So money cannot solve the problems. That is not possible. Devotee (1): This is a very logical argument of preaching. When you tell them that the standard of happiness is not material opulence, people are willing to accept, because they see they are not becoming more happy. Prabhupāda: They think like that, but that is not the solution of problems. So you discuss on this point. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They think like that because of false propaganda. So if we counterattack with the right propaganda, people will hear it. Prabhupāda: So why you cannot write propaganda? You should. You are preaching. You must meet them and must convince them that simply getting money is not the solution of the problem. (microphone rattling) That you have to convince. Jayādvaita: Sometimes they say that it's not to have more and more money, but we have to go to school so that we can get some job, otherwise how will we live? So we tell them that we haven't done anything, for eight years we haven't worked, and we have that, we have (indistinct). Prabhupāda: We are not attending any job. Jayādvaita: No. (laughs) We're living better than them. Prabhupāda: And still we are living very comfortably. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Another proof is even when there are austerities, we do not mind to accept it because there is a higher pleasure. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have greater pleasure, that this austerity will please Kṛṣṇa. So we must do it. Our aim is how to please Kṛṣṇa. That is our argument. Go on reading. Jayādvaita: "On the other hand, there is the brāhmaṇa, or he who is intelligent enough to utilize this body to solve all the problems of life. The kṛpaṇas, or miserly persons, waste their time..." *Prabhupāda: The real problem of life is birth, death, old age and disease. They do not understand this. They are so.... Just like animals. Animal does not understand what is birth, death, old age and disease. Real problem is there, but they are so dull*-headed that their attention is diverted from the real problem. Temporary problems, they are busy. Just like, one major disease, one is suffering from a major disease. On account of that, he has sometimes headache, sometimes pain here, sometimes so many, minor. So, because we are subjected to meet death, so these minor conditions are there. The real problem is after suffering, suffering, suffering, suffering, when the body is no more able to bear suffering, it dies. Just like one man commits suicide. When he cannot control himself from the suffering, he voluntarily commits suicide. So death is the ultimate suffering. But we do not want suffering. Therefore problem is death. But who is anxious to solve this problem? They are not intelligent even. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. They do not know even what are the problems. Hmm? Jayādvaita: They say that's life. They say that's what life is. Prabhupāda: Life is to die? Jayādvaita: Yes. They say this is natural. Prabhupāda: So why you are afraid of death? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Then they say, "I'm not afraid." Prabhupāda: So that's mad. (laughter) Yes, they say like that. Everyone is afraid of death. Hari-śauri: They say "I don't mind to die. As long as I can just finish up one or two things first, then I don't mind." *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Death will wait for your finishing? Death will come, it will not wait. People have become less intelligent, mūḍha. The general description is given in the Bhagavad*-gītā: mūḍha, narādhama. Human intelligence requires to understand these problems, but because they are mūḍha, and lowest of the human, simply like animals, eat, drink, be merry and enjoy. Narādhama. You do not solve the problems. Simply like animal, dancing. So go on reading. Jayādvaita: "The kṛpaṇas or miserly persons, waste their time in being overly affectionate for family, society, country, etc., in the material conception of life. One is often attached to family life, namely to wife, children and other members, on the basis of 'skin disease.' The kṛpaṇa thinks that he is able to protect his family members from death; *or the kṛpaṇa thinks that his family or society can save him from the verge of death. Such family attachment can be found even in the lower animals who take care of children also. Being intelligent, Arjuna can understand that his affection for family members and his wish to protect them from death were the causes of his perplexities. Although he could understand that his duty to fight was awaiting him, still, on account of miserly weakness he could not discharge the duties. He is therefore asking Lord Kṛṣṇa, the supreme spiritual master, to make a definite solution. He offers himself to Kṛṣṇa as a disciple. He wants to stop friendly talks. Talks between the master and the disciple are serious, and now Arjuna wants to talk very seriously before the recognized spiritual master. Kṛṣṇa is therefore the original spiritual master of the science of Bhagavad*-gītā, and Arjuna is the first disciple for understanding the Gītā. How Arjuna understands the Bhagavad-gītā is stated in the Gītā itself. And yet foolish mundane scholars explain that one need not submit to Kṛṣṇa as a person, but to the unborn within Kṛṣṇa. There is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's within and without. And one who has no sense of this understanding is the greatest fool in trying to understand Bhagavad-gītā." (continues reading texts purports, 8-12, until the end of the recording.) (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 15, 1976, Detroit (much static throughout) Prabhupāda: So you can go there. Hari-śauri: You want to go, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: We can go tomorrow. (indistinct) Satsvarūpa: We left in the morning. It looked like this. Prabhupāda: It was little earlier. Satsvarūpa: Yes. [break] About twelve. Prabhupāda: People are coming? Satsvarūpa: Yes. And their main program is they go every day on the lawn at the university and they set up a pandal tent and chant for about two hours. And they are building a truck for distributing prasāda in the wintertime on campus... Prabhupāda: You make arrangement. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Very nice clean house, but not much bigger than a house like that. But very nice and clean. *Prabhupāda: Forty*-eight cents? Satsvarūpa: I don't know. Ambarīṣa? How much are cigarettes? *Ambarīṣa: I think they're seventy*-five cents. They are very highly taxed. *Prabhupāda: Who cares for it? (laughter) Wine is highly taxed in India. When I was manager in Dr. Bose's laboratory, he was manufacturing alcohol(?) for medicinal purposes. The cost was one rupee eight annas per gallon. The government was levying duty. For medicinal purpose, five rupees per gallon, whereas purchasing liquor, fifty*-eight. The government would take profit out of it, fifty-eight rupees. Satsvarūpa: (indistinct) Fifth Canto (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Today, there was description, there is description, the fight was so severe that the blood sprinkled up to the sun planet. So why not moon planet? Why they say sun planet? The sun is the nearest planet from the earth. So this calculation.... They say the sun planet is 93,000,000 miles away from earth? And if you add further 1,600,000 miles, it comes to about fifteen (50?) million miles. Fifteen (50?) million miles, they have calculated, go there by the sputnik at the rate of 13,000 miles per hour. (indistinct) Ambarīṣa: They said they went fifteen million? Hari-śauri: No, according to our calculation.... We agree with the figure 93,000,000, as approximate to the sun, but then our figure is 1,600,000 beyond it to the moon. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Ambarīṣa does not agree. (laughs) Ambarīṣa: No, I agree. I wonder where they went? I think they went somewhere. Maybe not. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda said in Los Angeles it's very easy to simulate these moon landing pictures in a movie so that they're.... Just like there are so many films now where they show this. Satsvarūpa: People in the classes, when the students say that that they do not see God, there is no proof for God, I give that argument you give. I say, "Well, I am a common layman, I have no proof that we've actually gone to the moon. At least I haven't gone to the moon. Show me right away that you can prove it me." They say, "Well, we have rocks, they brought back rocks." "I don't believe that they are from the moon." They are astonished that I..., we could actually doubt. (laughter) Ambarīṣa: There is another planet that is close to the earth that they could have gone to, isn't there? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) some petrol station in the sky? Ambarīṣa and Satsvarūpa: I never heard that. Hari-śauri: They've been planning all kinds of space laboratories and things like that. Prabhupāda: No, there was some plan that there would be... Satsvarūpa: Another planet? Prabhupāda: No, intermediate station for supplying petrol. Hari-śauri: For airplanes? Prabhupāda: Yes. There was some suggestion. (Bengali) ...why Sunday first, and Monday second, all over the world? Satsvarūpa: Sun, moon. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Sun planet, moon planet, Mars, Jupiter, like this, last, Saturn. So if this is systematic, then this calculation also means sun planet first. Why Sunday first? Hari-śauri: You've defeated everyone, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Any one of these boys can answer? Why Sunday first? Ambarīṣa Mahārāja? Ambarīṣa: Why Sunday first? Because the sun is closer to the earth. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That is my version. Ambarīṣa: Yes, I agree with that. Prabhupāda: But why do they say the moon planet first? Ambarīṣa: Because their senses are imperfect. Prabhupāda: Svarūpa Dāmodara also, he also not replied satisfactorily. [break] ...do not count talking about sun, moon excursion. Why they are now stop, not talking anything? Devotee (1): All they could get was some dust. Prabhupāda: That is already known. Further? Makhanlāl: They want to go to Mars and Saturn now. Prabhupāda: Why? Moon finished? Simply by taking dust? And still the government is going to pay for Mars and Venus? Devotee (1): They all do favors for each other. The government contracts big construction companies to build military bases for them. And then in turn they all have engagement, they all feed each other, like that. We met one boy in Houston, his grandfather was a disciple of Bhaktisiddhānta. Prabhupāda: Indian? Devotee (1): Yes. No, he is not Indian, he was German. Prabhupāda: German. Yes. Devotee (1): His grandfather was German, he was raised in Germany. Prabhupāda: Yes, we had two German Godbrothers. One is that Sadānanda. Another was Bon something. Hari-śauri: He was initiated? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Devotee (1): ...family they live in Houston, they're a big construction company, and they do all kinds of construction work for the government. Prabhupāda: I think his grandfather was also architect.... That gentleman was Jew. Devotee (1): I don't remember. I think he was. He used to work with George Harrison.... Harrison was their name. He was very rich. Their family does construction work for big government officials in Iran, and they are building one big naval base in Iran. Prabhupāda: Why not to take our work in Māyāpura? [break] Devotee (1): ...letter, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He never returned it. [break] Satsvarūpa: ...half of what he says isn't true. I would doubt that all these claims are even true. He says things and then they turn out not to be true. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He came on my bus for a week. Satsvarūpa: He's nice, but I don't think he has all that aristocratic background that he claims. Devotee (1): ...by the results. What a man can do? Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was noticing as we walk that there are so many trash cans, but no one throws their trash in the can. There are so many trash cans, but none of the karmīs are throwing their trash in the can. They just don't care. They throw it along the road. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda was pointing out that at seven o'clock in the morning you'll see everyone in the liquor stores, but they don't organize them to come and clean. You were mentioning that everyone is lining up to buy liquor in the morning with their money from the government. They don't work. But instead the government should have them working cleaning the parks, but they are not expert managers. [break] ...in the early hours the people are sweeping the streets, cleaning. Devotee (1): People in America, they don't care, they don't care to even walk five steps to drop a paper in a can. Makhanlāl: In the Upadeśāmṛta, in the eleventh verse, it says that if one takes his bath even once in the Rādhākuṇḍa he immediately awakens his love for Kṛṣṇa. I was wondering, some of those who have had the opportunity to take bath in Rādhākuṇḍa, it seems though it may take some time. I was wondering, is that because we don't see time in the proper perspective? Prabhupāda: Why do you go to Rādhākuṇḍa? Unless there is some awakening of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] Devotee (1): ...he's a rich man's son, but he's walking without shoes just like a sādhu. [break] Satsvarūpa: ...was the president of Ann Arbor temple. I told him what you were thinking. You think you really want to go to Ann Arbor? Prabhupāda: Not necessary. (indistinct) [break] Satsvarūpa: ...God, Christ, they believe that Christ is God, some Christians. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Many different understandings. Satsvarūpa: Some say he's a perfect man. Some say a son of God or he's actually God. [break] ...a spirit within. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: ...Holy Ghost is like Brahman and Paramātmā. All*-pervading God and God within the heart speaking. Satsvarūpa: And Jesus Christ is the only son of the Lord, and he's the Lord also at the same time. Hari-śauri: And they say he has a material body, and he is God incarnated into flesh. *Prabhupāda: We also say. Sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstraiḥ. Satsvarūpa: The guru is as good as God. And only by the guru... Prabhupāda: But he's servant. Satsvarūpa: Yes. And we also say only by the mercy of the guru. But they say only through Jesus. [break] ...so many similarities. Sometimes a Christian asks, "What is unique about your religion? Why should I...? It seems to be the same as what we have." Hari-śauri: The unique thing is that we're actually able to follow teachings, whereas they are not. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I lived in one Christian monastery, Śrīla Prabhupāda, before, with monks. There is no bliss. They don't have kīrtana and prasādam. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Room Conversation with George Gullen,President of Wayne State University-*-June 15, 1976, Detroit George Gullen: ...I'm the president of Wayne State University. I'm very pleased to be asked to come and visit with you. [break] Prabhupāda: You have studied something about our philosophy? George Gullen: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: I am asking, you have studied something about our philosophy? George Gullen: A little. Not very much. I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be, I'm certain. Prabhupāda: It is not a sectarian movement. (to someone else:) Why you stop? Yes. (to Gullen:) It is essential knowledge for the whole human society. There are two things, matter and spirit. We can understand, every one of us, we are combination of two things, matter and spirit. The matter is the body, and the spirit is the moving force. George Gullen: Umhm, I hear what you're saying, yes. Prabhupāda: But the modern civilization, throughout the whole world, they are very serious about the matter, but they are completely in ignorance about the spirit. What is your opinion about these things? George Gullen: I understand that very clearly, and I think we're caught up terribly in matters that are not of the spirit. We're terribly caught up in materialistic things. Prabhupāda: But material, that is temporary. This body, your body, my body, anyone's body, that is temporary. It will not stay. It has taken birth at a certain date, it will endure for certain years, and then it will be finished. But the spirit, that will continue. It will accept another body. Just like we are accepting, we are giving up our body, childhood body, accepting the body of a boy, then giving up the boyhood body, accepting the body of a young man. Similarly, this body.... Just like I am an old man. This will be finished, and I will accept another body. So the spirit soul is eternal, and the body is temporary. So we are taking care of the body very much. That is also required. But what about the spirit soul? This education is lacking. George Gullen: Yes, this is true. My father was a Christian minister all of his life, and he had very deep beliefs about the spiritual matters. He felt very strongly, as you do, that the body was temporary and that his spirit would find its way into some other form of life, and he believed very strongly in life after human death, very much so. He believed in a matter he called cosmic consciousness, in which the spirit had far greater powers than physical powers. He had similar kinds, I believe, of beliefs that you do. I have some beliefs myself that the human body being quite temporary, that years are not long for it, that there must be more to life than just the physical side. Prabhupāda: Everyone's body is temporary, either human body or cat's body, dog's body. But the human body is important because in the human body we have developed consciousness by which we can understand what is God. The cats and dogs, they cannot, they haven't got that developed consciousness. Therefore if we do not use this developed consciousness for understanding God and our relationship with Him, then we are no better than cats and dogs. Cats and dogs cannot be educated about God, but a human being can be educated. That is the distinction between animals and man. But modern education is keeping them in ignorance about God, so they are no better than cats and dogs. And how can you bring peace among cats and dogs? Can you bring in peace calling all the dogs of your city and sit down peacefully? No, that is not possible. So if we keep our citizens like cats and dogs, then how we can expect peace? George Gullen: We are much in ignorance about those matters, I understand that, and... Prabhupāda: Yes. Complete ignorance, like animals. So the leaders of the society, if they are serious about advancement of human civilization, they must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness; otherwise, they'll be baffled. George Gullen: Well, we do not teach about these things... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the defect. George Gullen: .... in public schools because we do not know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now whether still we shall remain in ignorance or we shall learn this science and teach, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a sectarian religious movement. No, it is not that. This is science, scientific. So leading personalities like you, teachers, professors and other leading men, they should try to understand what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is and join. It is for the human society, it is not for a certain section. George Gullen: I would like very much to know more about these matters myself, personally. Prabhupāda: So kindly do that. You are little interested. So we are receiving orders from all universities, colleges, of our books. You have seen our books? These are our books. Satsvarūpa: In Wayne State University, where he is president, they have standing orders. Prabhupāda: Ah, we have also given (?). That is very nice. So every person, responsible person, he should learn this science and introduce, so that the opportunity a human being has got, that must be utilized. George Gullen: I'm sure there are many interpretations of what you say. I have an interest in these matters, and I want to know more about yours, very much so. I will see that I get your literature and read it. *Prabhupāda: Your father was also interested. That means naturally you have got some instinct from father, hereditary instinct. That is natural. So we want that.... In the Bhagavad*-gītā there is a verse. Find out, Hari-śauri: "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues." Prabhupāda: Purport? *Hari-śauri: Purport. "People in general always require a leader who can teach the public by practical behavior. A leader cannot teach the public to stop smoking if he himself smokes. Lord Caitanya said that a teacher should behave properly even before he begins teaching. One who teaches in that way is called ācārya, or the ideal teacher. Therefore, a teacher must follow the principles of śāstra, scripture, to reach the common man. The teacher cannot manufacture rules against the principles of revealed scriptures. The revealed scriptures, like Manu*-saṁhitā and others, are considered the standard books to be followed by human society. Thus the leader's teaching should be based on the principles of the standard rules as they are practiced by the great teachers. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also affirms that one should follow in the footsteps of great devotees, and that is the way of progress on the path of spiritual realization. The king or the executive head of a state, the father and the schoolteacher are all considered to be natural leaders of the innocent people in general. All such natural leaders have a great responsibility to their dependents; therefore they must be conversant with standard books of moral and spiritual codes." George Gullen: Very good, very good, I believe all that. Every word. The people need leadership, inspiration that they can follow with their whole heart. *Prabhupāda: There must be practice, that we are teaching. That simply not theoretical, but practical. Here in our institute, we teach all the students practically how to become God conscious. Theoretical knowledge will not help us. There must be practical behavior. They are rising early in the morning, attending maṅgala-ārati, then having class, Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, chanting, in this way, twenty-four hours engaged. It is not fifteen minutes recreation. No. Twenty-four hours program. George Gullen: I think this is good for the world. I think the world needs it very much so. Prabhupāda: So we are trying, although we are not supported by any government, we are trying in our own way. Own way.... The way is standard, but unfortunately people have lost interest in these things. Animal life. As soon as we forget our interest in spiritual life, then immediately we're animals. George Gullen: We're very much creatures of habit, and it's difficult for us to give up our habits. *Prabhupāda: Habit can be changed. Habit can be changed by practice. Just like we advise no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat*-eating. So all these Europeans, Americans, they were habituated to all these habits, but now they have stopped. It can be, by practice, bad habits can be changed. George Gullen: You appear to have a program of great discipline, and I think that discipline is necessary for people who want to feel and learn and understand. I'm an admirer of discipline. But it's hard for one to bring oneself to do that out of a world that's strange, a strange world. Our world is strange, try to bring myself out of that to other things. But I'm pleased to have this opportunity to hear you and to think about it, talk about it. I'd like to read more about it. Prabhupāda: One priest has joined us. What is his name? Satsvarūpa: Eugene Stowsky. Prabhupāda: He's Ph.D. He has recently joined us. He likes this movement. George Gullen: I'm sure it satisfies a deep need. I'm sure that's true. *Prabhupāda: No, it is the need of the human society. There is no alternative. In the Vedic mantra it is said, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. One must accept this. Otherwise, his human life is spoiled. If you simply trained up to live like an animal, then it is a great harm to the human society. George Gullen: I think our educational program at our university is very important to people if it helps them think and understand and begin to feel. We don't educate the heart, and I think there's something wrong about that. I think that the heart needs an education. There's some feelings one has to understand and some responses. We're inadequate in this respect, I... *Prabhupāda: No, the things is.... Suppose a person, by his right, has to get so much money from his father's property. If somebody does not give him that money or somehow or other checks him to get the money, so that's a very heinous act. If he is actually inheritor of the father's property, he must get it. That is justice. Similarly, in the human form of life, one can get this education. If this education is lacking, that means we are envious. We're not giving the opportunity of fulfilling the right. And without this education, there is chance of falling down. Just like tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Another body you have to accept. If you do not give proper education, then next body may be lower than human being. There are so many different types of bodies, 8,400,000. So according to our mentality, we get another body. Nature's law. Nobody can check it. This life I may be very satisfied, that "I have got this body, let me enjoy without any responsibility and become an animal." That's not very good civilization. They do not believe in the next life. Big, big educated men, they have no brain even to understand that we are changing every moment the body, and they don't believe that body changes and the soul continues. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Find out this verse. Hari-śauri: *"As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." George Gullen: These are difficult words to understand, but I appreciate them. Prabhupāda: Therefore dhīra.... Dhīras tatra, dhīra means sober gentleman. Dhīra. Dhīra means gentleman. So if one does not understand this simple truth, he's not even a gentleman, what to speak of learned scholar. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. That means every gentleman must have this education. And what is the use? What is the meaning of dhīra? Hari-śauri: Sober. Satsvarūpa: Learned. Prabhupāda: That is gentleman. So one who does not understand this philosophy of life is not fit to be addressed as gentleman. It is commonsense knowledge. George Gullen: My father used to speak of the Oversoul that I think had some similarity to these words that we just read, that the soul that is... *Prabhupāda: We call Supersoul, that is God. The idea is in Christianity also, "Holy Ghost" like that. Supersoul and the ordinary soul. We living entities, we are ordinary souls, and God in His all*-pervading feature, He is Supersoul. Find out this verse: kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: Kṣetra*-kṣetrajñayor jñānaṁ yat taj jñānaṁ mataṁ mama. English? Hari-śauri: "O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its owner is called knowledge. That is My opinion." *Prabhupāda: First of all knowledge means kṣetra*-kṣetrajña. The body is the field of activity. You are acting, I am also acting, everyone is acting-according to the body. But the actor is called kṣetrajña. Just like a cultivator is tilling the land, his own, and the tiller is cultivator. Similarly, this body is an analogy of this field, and we are tilling. So Kṛṣṇa says that "I am also one of the tillers." Just like the tenant and the landlord. In an apartment house, the tenant is occupier of a certain house, certain apartment, but the landlord is the owner of the whole house. So God says "I am also kṣetrajña-but for all the buildings." Everything that is there, all planets, all, everywhere. That is His all-pervasiveness. I am the proprietor of this body, owner of this body, but God is proprietor of all the bodies. In this way that is explained. Purport? *Hari-śauri: Purport. "While discussing the subject of this body and the owner of the body, the soul and the Supersoul, we shall find three different topics of study: the Lord, the living entity, and matter. In every field of activities, in every body, there are two souls: the individual soul and the Supersoul. Because the Supersoul is the plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, 'I am also the knower, but I am not the individual owner of the body. I am the superknower. I am present in every body as the Paramātmā, or Supersoul.' One who studies the subject matter of the field of activity and the knower of the field very minutely, in terms of this Bhagavad*-gītā, can attain to knowledge. The Lord says: 'I am the knower of the field of activities in every individual body.' The individual may be the knower of his own body, but he is not in knowledge of other bodies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is present as the Supersoul in all bodies, knows everything about all bodies. He knows all the different bodies of all the various species of life. A citizen may know everything about his patch of land, but the king knows not only his palace but all the properties possessed by the individual citizens. Similarly, one may be the proprietor of the body individually, but the Supreme Lord is the proprietor of all bodies. The king is the original proprietor of the kingdom, and the citizen is the secondary proprietor. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the supreme proprietor of all bodies. The body consists of senses. The Supreme Lord is Hṛṣīkeśa, which means controller of the senses. He is the original controller of the senses, just as the king is the original controller of all the activities of the state, and the citizens are secondary controllers. The Lord also says, 'I am also the knower.' This means that He is the superknower; the individual soul knows only his particular body. In the Vedic literature, it is also stated..." Prabhupāda: Just like pains and pleasure. You know your bodily pains and pleasure, I know my body. But I do not know your bodily pains, neither you know mine. But God knows everyone's pains and pleasures. That is the difference between God and individual soul. *Hari-śauri: "This body is called kṣetra, and within it dwells the owner of the body and the Supreme Lord, who knows both the body and the owner of the body. Therefore He is called the knower of all fields. The distinction between the field of activities, the owner of activities, and the supreme owner of activities is described as follows. Perfect knowledge of the constitution of the body, the constitution of the individual soul, and the constitution of the Supersoul is known in terms of Vedic literature as jñānam. That is the opinion of Kṛṣṇa. To understand both the soul and the Supersoul as one yet distinct is knowledge. One who does not understand the field of activity and the knower of activity is not in perfect knowledge. One has to understand the position of prakṛti, nature, and puruṣa, the enjoyer of the nature, and īśvara, the knower who dominates or controls nature and the individual soul. One should not confuse the three in their different capacities. One should not confuse the painter, the painting and the easel. This material world, which is the field of activities, is nature, and the enjoyer of nature is the living entity, and above them both is the supreme controller, the Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the Vedic language: bhoktā bhogyaṁ preritāraṁ ca matvā/ sarvaṁ proktaṁ tri*-vidhaṁ brahmam etat. There are three Brahman conceptions: prakṛti is Brahman as the field of activities, and the jīva (individual soul) is also Brahman and is trying to control material nature, and the controller of both of them is also Brahman, but He is the factual controller. In this chapter it will be also explained that out of the two knowers, one is fallible and the other is infallible. One is superior and the other is subordinate. One who understands the two knowers of the field to be one and the same contradicts the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who states here very clearly that 'I am also the knower of the field of activity.' One who misunderstands a rope to be a serpent is not in knowledge. There are different types of bodies, and there are different owners of the bodies. Because each individual soul has his individual capacity of lording it over material nature, there are different bodies. But the Supreme also is present in them as the controller. The word ca is significant, because it indicates the total number of bodies. That is the opinion of Śrīla Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa: Kṛṣṇa is the Supersoul present in each and every body apart from the individual soul. And Kṛṣṇa explicitly says here that the Supersoul is the controller of both the field of activities and the finite enjoyer." George Gullen: Thank you for reading this to me. I'm afraid I must be discourteous and leave you at the moment. I am speaking at a dinner meeting for my university. Prabhupāda: All right. George Gullen: I was delighted with Miss Reuther's call, for the chance to come and for this opportunity to listen to you, and I'm very grateful to her for calling. Prabhupāda: Give him some prasādam. Lekhaśravantī: Here's some prasādam. George Gullen: Oh, thank you very much. (end) *Room Conversation-*-June 15, 1976, Detroit *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (reading) "...who has made it his life's work to debunk the so*-called material powers of god-men the world over, and said that he is afraid for his life. Amongst those he has challenged is Satya Sai Baba, a mystic who has thousands of followers in South Africa. The man who is said to expose fraudulent practices amongst miracle workers is Dr. Abraham T. Kavoor, who recently held a spell-binding magic show at the Bangalore Town Hall to debunk the miracles of god-men. He claimed that several of the tricks demonstrated had, in fact, been learned from persons who had duped the public that they could perform miracles and other extraordinary acts. And this, he believed, would lead to an attempt on his life. 'I am not afraid of gods. They don't exist. But I am afraid of god-men, because they are alive. They have thugs as agents. If a good man like Gandhi could be assassinated, what keeps a Kavoor from suffering the same fate?' Addressing a press conference, Dr. Kavoor implied that an attempt might be made on his life if he tried to expose the fraudulent practice by god-men because this would involve a physical search of the persons involved. Hence his insistence that his investigation would have to be preceded by their permission. [The permission of these so-called mystics, registered letters.] To date, he said, he had written six registered letters to Satya Sai Baba issuing his famous challenge, but had no reply from him as yet. Asked how he produced ash and other objects out of nowhere, Dr. Kavoor indicated that one of the methods was by concealing the objects to be materialized inside of his coat. The rest was pure sleight of hand. Photographs of him [Sai Baba] exposing his coat have been published both in the national and international press, he said. Reporting that haṭha-yogī L.S. Lal had confessed to him that his much-vaunted show of walking on water had been pure trick designed to make some money, Dr. Kavoor said, 'How long can the government of India tolerate such hoaxers who claim to have supernatural powers and exploit the ordinary men?' " Prabhupāda: You keep this. We shall have to show to the Indian government authorities. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: " 'Just as it has dealt with black marketers and smugglers, it is high time the government took immediate action to round up all those who claim supernatural powers.' While he was happy that Bangalore University has already established a committee to investigate miracles and superstitions, he cautioned them to be very careful, as even the scientists were not infallible." Prabhupāda: How many scientists? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are also fallible, they can also make mistakes. "Experts Misled: For instance, investigators in universities in the West were known to be misled by tricksters who claimed para*-psychological powers." Like ESP. *Prabhupāda: They invent some big, big words (laughter). Aparkalasvena*-vargolas-double-wakundali-gondolais (gibberish). (laughter) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "One of them was Uri Geller, an ordinary street magician who succeeded in hoodwinking two scientists of the Stanford Research Institute. He claimed that he was able to perform miracles with psychic powers obtained from a computerized brain thirteen million light years away in space." Very far away in space there's a computerized brain that he's using. Hari-śauri: This guy, Uri Geller, he had a stage show. He would get one iron bar and stare at it, and the iron bar would bend, like this. And he could bend, he could put a spoon in the open palm of his hand, and it would bend. Things like this he was doing, and he became very famous overnight. Prabhupāda: By bending iron. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's been to South Africa also, this Uri Geller. He was bending keys, bending keys. He's from Israel. "Like Indian*-god men who had talented propaganda agents, Geller too had one. Dr. Kavoor in fact claimed that G.K. Swami Nathan, one of the magicians who performed some startling acts at the show, had disguised himself as a swami, replete with saffron robes, and had spent a few months in the āśrama of a highly popular god-man near Bangalore, from whom he had picked up his repertoire of tricks. Exposing fraud was his mission in life, said Dr. Kavoor, and he would continue to write letters to god-men and miracle makers in the hope that they would accept his challenge someday." In the same newspaper there's a nice article about Jagannātha. "Jagannātha Festival (indistinct)." Prabhupāda: You may read that. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "One of India's biggest and most ancient religious festivals, Ratha*-yātrā, the festival of the chariots, which has been enacted in several Western cities in recent years, is to be staged in South Africa in July. The festival in honor of Lord Kṛṣṇa is planned to be held in Durban next month by the local branch of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, widely known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Based on the thousands-of-years-old annual parade of the three main deities of the Jagannātha temple on huge chariots through the streets of Purī, Orissa, the festival has been staged by devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa in major world cities such as London, Paris, New York, Washington, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Chicago, Montreal and Melbourne, following the spreading of Kṛṣṇa consciousness amongst thousands of Westerners in the decade since the founding of the movement in 1966 by Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Almost a million devotees participate in the chariot festival held every summer at Purī, where they offer oblations to Lord Kṛṣṇa; lend a hand, tugging the ropes, to pull the huge chariots; line the grand route; *or simply attend to see the color and pageantry from high vantage points. Jagannātha*-The three colossal chariots from which the term Jagannātha is derived carry the three Jagannātha Deities of Lord Balarāma, the Lord who gives spiritual strength and pleasure; Lady Subhadrā, one who is the auspicious one; *and Lord Jagannātha, the Lord of the universe,"*-with a capital L-"on the three-kilometer journey symbolizing Lord Kṛṣṇa's visit to the town of His childhood pastimes. This year ISKCON will sponsor Ratha-yātrā festivals in ten cities worldwide. Durban, however, is not amongst them, as the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is fairly new and has not yet established itself on a firm basis and increased its following in Durban. Branch members are enthusiastic and are hoping to organize a procession of their own through the streets of Durban to coincide with the festivals which will be held in several major cities." Prabhupāda: They are arranging like that or not? Our branch there? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They want to. I told them that better to wait until they have some more local support, because they would have to have Deity worship, and I don't think they're ready for Jagannātha deities there. There's only eleven devotees in Durban. So when they have some more local support, they can start holding. Prabhupāda: No, this Jagannātha festival will be participated by all the Indians. There is no doubt about it. So our few men, and with the cooperation of the local Indians, it can be successful. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No doubt, but what about the daily worship? Should we have Jagannātha deities if it's not possible for worshiping them? Should we have them just for the festival? *Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty of worshiping? You are already worshiping Gaura*-Nitāi. Then what is the difficulty? The same. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, I'm just afraid that visa problems with the brāhmaṇas. *Prabhupāda: No, no, if you are worshiping Nitāi*-Gaura, along with Jagannātha, where is the difficulty? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We only have two brāhmaṇas in South Africa. Prabhupāda: No, one brāhmaṇa, half brāhmaṇa will do. Only one hand will do. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Okay. "According to Ṛddha dāsa brahmacārī, head of the local mission, the festival of the chariots glorifies Lord Jagannātha. The Lord of the universe and the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra by people of all ethnic and religious backgrounds in cities in the world over has turned into a truly international event. Durban, with its large Hindu population, is aware of the divine status of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and we pray that by organizing our own chariot festival, we will be able to extend our message to a wider audience." Prabhupāda: Do it immediately; they are eager. Begin this year. Yes, they'll get life, the Hindus. Immediately advise them. Just like I began in San Francisco on the truck. You know that? So you can begin in that way. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was the first ratha cart? *Prabhupāda: Yes. I suggested Śyāmasundara that on a truck you make a ratha*-like dome, and put this. It was successful. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It was in New York? Prabhupāda: It was San Francisco. The first beginning was in San Francisco. Hari-śauri: There was pictures of you riding on that ratha cart, that was a truck? Prabhupāda: No, rather, that was second or third. In the beginning, it was in a truck. So if the people are eager, you immediately organize. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Did you want to go out into the garden tonight or not? Prabhupāda: I have no objection. Hari-śauri: 'Cause there's no sunshine now. Prabhupāda: This paper is conducted by the Indians? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is produced once a week. All of the Indians in Durban read it. Durban has half a million Indians. *Prabhupāda: But two things are very important: condemning this Sai Baba and welcoming our Ratha*-yātrā. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We have two copies. Prabhupāda: Our names are also there. Indirectly. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is mentioned, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Factually, these rascals are creating magic jugglery. Even during the time of Kṛṣṇa such rascals were there. Pauṇḍraka. So Kṛṣṇa was present, He immediately cut off his head. (laughs) They should be immediately cut off their head, rascals. Yes. That is the only punishment for them. What another news you told me? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, also they started, they've called the department the Department of Hindu Studies.... There's an all*-Indian University in Durban, and when Śrīla Prabhupāda visited South Africa, the president of the university was a European gentleman, he very much appreciated our philosophy and the need for a Department of Hindu Studies. So Śrīla Prabhupāda recommended Svarūpa Dāmodara, and we submitted his application. And they've limited the choices for the Ph.D. in charge of the Department of Hindu Studies to three, and one of them is Svarūpa Dāmodara. So there's a possibility... *Prabhupāda: Svarūpa Dāmodara must be the best candidate. Others, what they'll know about it? All other Ph.D.s, they are simply rubber stamped. Actually they have no knowledge. Svarūpa Dāmodara has solid knowledge. He has learned from us. Therefore he's writing all these books. He has rejected his so*-called scientific knowledge. He has completely understood that so-called scientific knowledge is bogus, it has no solid background. Now he's writing books on this. Now this morning, last night also, I got hint from Bhāgavatam, I told you in the morning? The sun planet is first. And nobody can reply this, that "Why Sunday first?" Nobody has replied this point. Sunday, Monday.... First of all Sunday, then Monday. Why not Monday, Sunday? That is according to the planetary arrangement. The Saturn is the last planet. That is admitted in the Bhāgavatam. So sun is first, then moon, then Mars, then Jupiter, like that, last, Saturn. That is everywhere. So why the modern scientists changing it? The Monday first or moon first, sun second. Hmm? What is your reply. You sometimes support them. Satsvarūpa: Just for argument because (laughter) I'm always getting arguments, so I want to know how to give the right answer. Prabhupāda: That's all right. What is your argument in this connection? Satsvarūpa: Well, just because Sunday comes before Monday, that's an interpretation to say therefore the sun is nearer than the moon. Sunday may be the first day of the week and then Monday, but that doesn't mean the sun is closer than the moon, just because Sunday is the first day of the week. Prabhupāda: No, why this arrangement? There must be some arrangement in planetary system. Just like first, second, third, fourth, fifth, like that. Therefore, Sunday's first. Not whimsically. Suppose there is a system, first, second, third, fourth. So according to that, the dates are there. Not whimsically you first of all bring Saturn or first of all bring Jupiter. Not like that. You cannot do that. Why shall you do that? Therefore we are sitting, now, she's first, he's second, you are, like that. Not that although she is sitting there, he can be blocked here. No, everybody.... It is of course a very simple question, but it has got some intelligence. We must get some intelligent answer. Ordinary answer will not do. And so far, you know I have questioned so many persons, and they have not replied. Svarūpa Dāmodara has not replied. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He backed down from the challenge. *Prabhupāda: Now you all together make this Vedic planetarium very nice, so that people will come and see. From the description of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, you prepare this Vedic planetarium. How do you like this idea, Vedic planetarium? Ambarīṣa: It seems like a very nice idea. Prabhupāda: You also like? So finance this project. (laughter) Vedic planetarium. Ambarīṣa: Where will this be? Prabhupāda: Māyāpura. My idea is to attract people of the whole world to Māyāpura. So we are just trying to acquire three hundred fifty acres of land from the government. It is going on under consideration. Some men are against and some are in favor. But those who are against, they have counted ninety? Hari-śauri: Ninety against, two thousand for. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Māyāpura itself. Hari-śauri: The local farmers. Prabhupāda: So all of you now make a complete idea how to make Vedic planetary, planetarium. Another question. Why in every map the northern side is accepted up? (laughter) Can anyone answer this? North, south. South is considered down. East, west. Why not other ways? I can make east on that side. Why it is north only up side? Can anyone answer? Ambarīṣa: It might have something to do with the magnetic poles. The magnetic force is always pulling to the north. *Prabhupāda: That is the polestar. Yes. That is the up side of the universe. And that we have described in the Bhāgavatam. That is the pivot, and the whole planetary system is moving twenty*-four hours. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's factual also. Because they see that all of these stars and constellations are going around the North Star. Prabhupāda: But the modern astronomy, they do not say like that. Jayādvaita: No. They don't say it is moving around. They don't say that it's moving around the polestar. They have some other explanation. Prabhupāda: That means they're imperfect. Mādhavānanda: They say that it's fixed. They say the polestar is fixed, but it doesn't revolve around. They say everything moves, but the polestar is... *Prabhupāda: Polestar is fixed, that is fact. And all.... It is like pivot. Everyone round, round. Ūrdhva*-mūlam adhah-śākham [Bg. 15.1]. This tree is spread downwards. The root is upward. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The scientists also say all of the stars are moving around. But they don't see the earth as moving around. *Prabhupāda: Why not? What is this nonsense? If all the stars can move, what is the earth? That is their nonsense. Only earth is populated, everywhere is vacant. (laughter) In the Bhāgavata it is said every planet is full of living entities. Jana*-pūrṇa. Perhaps I have explained, in my recent.... jana-kīrṇa. Jana-kīrṇa means full of living entities. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Last chapter of the Seventh Canto. Prabhupāda: Yes. And these rascals say there is no life in other.... Moon planet is accepted as the heavenly planet, and these rascals say "It is sand. And we have brought the sand." It is one of the heavenly planets. Jayādvaita: Some scientists have started a project. They are beaming radio messages into space because they think perhaps there is someone intelligent there, and they will beam back something. Prabhupāda: Their knowledge is "perhaps." It is nonsense. They have no definite knowledge. "Perhaps." Perhaps is not knowledge. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We had one CIA agent. Previously, he was a CIA agent. I was told this story, I don't know. Anyway, might as well relate it. So they were doing an experiment in the Bahama Islands off Florida. They were all very high intellects. They were developing a certain radio beam to measure the beams which are given off from other planets, thinking that maybe these intelligent beings, they are sending some message out. So they developed this way of sensoring the beams which were coming from the North Star. Anyway, he said*-and he was serious, I was told this; *he's in India now, one of our devotees there*-he said that when they focused on the North Star and they got the beam back, when they translated it, it came out to be the mahā-mantra. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And so they went to the Department of Intelligence, (laughter) and they went to the United States Army, because this was an army project, and when the Army got hold of it they said, "Oh, you people are all nonsense. Disband this project." *Prabhupāda: That is.... Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has sung: golokera prema*-dhana hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana. Hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana is not the mundane sound. It is coming from there. Golokera prema-dhana hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana. It is not material. Had it been material, then how it is so effective? That's a fact. The sound is, beam is coming from there. So this professor liked our conversation? Lekhaśravantī: Very much. *Prabhupāda: Dhīras tatra na. Any man who is dhīra, he'll accept this philosophy. Adhīra and dhīra. Of course we are distributing this knowledge to both the adhīra and dhīra. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana*-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau. Both the dhīra and adhīra. Everyone will like it. Dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priya-karau. Not that only those who are dhīra will like it, but adhīra, they'll also like it. Dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau pūjitau/ śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau bhuvi bhuvo bhārāvahantārakau vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. Hari-śauri: There's someone else coming at seven o'clock, Mādhavānanda was saying. You know who it is? *Lekhaśravantī: Seven*-thirty. His name is Monsignor Clement Kern. I don't know what "Monsignor" means. He's the head of a parish. Hari-śauri: Oh, that's a church title, Monsignor. Lekhaśravantī: He's very old, he's elderly, but he's very well known in the entire area. He has a large following of people. Hari-śauri: What church is he with? Lekhaśravantī: It's the Holy Trinity Church. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Catholic? Lekhaśravantī: Maybe it is. I'm not so educated in all these things. Hari-śauri: I think it's Catholic. Prabhupāda: So we shall have to go there? No. Hari-śauri: It's very windy tonight, there is no sun. Prabhupāda: What is this? Hari-śauri: You can look. Whatever you decide. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: You want to go out? Prabhupāda: Hm. Hari-śauri: All right. So in a few minutes just to set up... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] Yes, I'll inform them: "If cart is not possible to be made or (indistinct), then they can do it on the back of a flat truck with a canopy with a nice cloth." Prabhupāda: Kīrtana party and truck, all Indians will come. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One thing though is, July is, like in Melbourne, it's wintertime there. So is it okay if they have the festival in summer months? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: As they do in Melbourne, in the summertime? Hari-śauri: They have it in January down there, because they get a better attendance and everything. It's a lot nicer. Prabhupāda: It is now winter there? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, wintertime now. Middle of the winter now. Very cold. Prabhupāda: So better summer is all right. Then they can make ratha regular. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. (end) *Conversation with Clergymen-*-June 15, 1976, Detroit Jayādvaita: That should be finished in not more than one or two days. Viśākhā: Tell him this has to be turned over when it stops. Hari-śauri: If it runs out. Viśākhā: Yeah, it flops up. Hari-śauri: Yeah, keep it there. Lekhaśravantī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Father Kern and Father Scheverman. Father Scheverman is from the church across the street from the temple here. He came also tonight. Prabhupāda: Yes, let him.... Bring one āsana. Ambarīṣa: There's another chair coming. There's another chair coming. Priest: Thank you. Hari-śauri: Put a mat out, cushion. Priest: Thank you. (commotion in background, mike moving around while devotees bring seats) Scheverman: This is just fine. Kern: We're happy the way we are. Scheverman: I don't think I could quite sit too long like that. I have to practice more. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...habituated to sit cross*-leg. They have learned also. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. So people in general, they are now out of God consciousness. Is it not? Scheverman: Yes, I would agree that in our society, that the consciousness of God is definitely on the wane. There's no question about that. We find it very, very difficult, I think, even to speak about the Lord God in the presence of people, because the ears are closed or stopped. There's not a willingness to listen. Prabhupāda: Why the people have come to this condition, that they are not prepared even to hear about God? Scheverman: I think, I think that, perhaps... Prabhupāda: One priest in Boston, he issued one booklet that "These boys, they're our boys, mostly they are coming from Christian or Jewish families. But before this movement, they were not coming even to the church, never inquired about God. Now they are mad after God." He issued one pamphlet like that. These boys. Scheverman: Oh, you're referring to the young men right here, coming from Boston, that's what you're saying, I see. Right. Prabhupāda: We have got many places. Los Angeles we purchased one church, a very big church. That church was vacant, nobody was coming. They tried so much to invite men, but nobody was coming. But after we have purchased, the church is the same, and the inhabitants are residents of Los Angeles, but it is always packed up. *Kern: I think there are many good signs, however*-your own movement. And we have..., I noticed you use the beads. We have a priest, Father Peyton, who gathers thousands to recite the rosary. Mostly young people. There are other movements that gather young people, which require a discipline. And perhaps since we think more in terms of the individual rather than the group, and the individual's decision, we possibly have forgotten that group discipline is very important. Therefore the attraction of your own movement and many others like that.... Within the Roman Catholics, there is now a very hopeful sign of mostly young people who are in what is called the charismatic movement, seeking to learn more of the Holy Spirit, seeking to change their lives for the better-however, at the same time, staying involved in the world. And it could be said that they seek to carry on the redemptive work of Jesus that he wishes done in the world, since he would be the key to our, to our advancement in the world. Our advancement, I say, and I'm not speaking of myself as a young man. But I think many young people in this charismatic movement, this is within Protestants and Catholics and others, I would say. There's a great emphasis among Jewish young people in the schools, to the development of the Jewish religion. Prabhupāda: What is the difference? Can you explain? Young..., I have been several times inquired that why young people coming in this movement? What is the reason? Jayādvaita: The specific qualification of our movement is that Śrīla Prabhupāda is giving information very scientifically in understanding God as the Supreme Person. Understanding not just that God is great, but understanding how God is great. Generally, we understand God is great, but how God is great, what His name is, what His form is, what His world is, there's no specific information. Kern: You say there is not specific information? *Jayādvaita: Generally speaking, there is no information given. But the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, from Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Vedic books, the information is given very specifically about how God is great. *Kern: I suppose that theology, study of God, is quite specific. Now whether would that information be given to groups, yes, I think so. We would speak of God as revealing Himself to us in very many ways. And therefore a group as large as this.... For example, tonight, Tuesday, there would be meetings of young people, Roman Catholics-and probably Protestants too, but I'm just thinking of Roman Catholic young people*-who would be praying very earnestly and searching for God's revelation to them through their friends, neighbors, and their own experience of God. I don't know if.... I'm not familiar with the charismatic movement yet, so I'm only speaking in great generalities. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The difficulty I have found by my personal experience with these groups is that it couldn't give me a concrete enough realization, neither a whole practical lifestyle by which I could stay on the platform of God realization. You can go to the meeting, but then when you go out in the society you're forced to act in so many sinful ways because of the conditioning and the advertising and the force of pressure in the society. But even.... I lived in a Trappist monastery in Spencer, Massachusetts, with the monks there, and there was still that gap between how I could not only fulfill my own spiritual life there, but also how to help others in theirs, without losing my purity. And that I've been able to find in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, because it gives you a twenty*-four-hour a day program to remain in God consciousness. *Prabhupāda: In our Bhagavad*-gītā there is a verse. Find out: Those who are addicted to sinful life, they cannot understand God. So therefore we have to stop sinful activities. If you keep them in sinful activities, and if you expect that God will be revealed to them, it is not possible. *Scheverman: Yes, we certainly agree, no contradiction on.... I think it's very, very important*-we do not see you in competition with our... Prabhupāda: No, there is no competition. It is a science. Science is to... Scheverman: We rejoice when we see people coming to the Lord God, wherever it may be and however it may be. Prabhupāda: Do you have the passage there? Jayādvaita: Yes. "Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination." Scheverman: Yes, we too see sin as an obstacle to communication and relationship with the Lord God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Read the purport. Scheverman: In fact, we define sin as that which separates us from the friendship of God. Rakṣaṇa: So that means following God's instructions, such as "Thou shalt not kill," right? *Jayādvaita: This is the purport. "Those eligible for elevation to the transcendental position are mentioned in this verse. For those who are sinful, atheistic, foolish and deceitful, it is very difficult to transcend the duality of desire and hate. Only those who have passed their lives in practicing the regulative principles of religion, who have acted piously and have conquered sinful reactions can accept devotional service and gradually rise to the pure knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then, gradually, they can meditate in trance on the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the process of being situated on the spiritual platform. This elevation is possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the association of pure devotees who can deliver one from delusion. It is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that if one actually wants to be liberated, he must render service to the devotees; but one who associates with materialistic people is on the path leading to the darkest region of existence. All the devotees of the Lord traverse this earth just to recover the conditioned souls from their delusion. The impersonalists do not know that forgetting their constitutional position as subordinate to the Supreme Lord is the greatest violation of God's law. Unless one is reinstated in his own constitutional position, it is not possible to understand the Supreme Personality or to be fully engaged in His transcendental loving service with determination." Scheverman: Yes, we can certainly agree with that. *Prabhupāda: So, we have to teach people how to refrain from sinful activities. Then, when he's pure, then God will reveal. If we keep them in sinful life, at the same time we want to preach them, it will not be possible. In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is said that those who are animal killer, they cannot understand about God. Vinā paśu-ghnāt. So if in the human society unnecessary animal killing is encouraged, he will never be able to understand what is God. The greatest sinful activity, paśu-ghnāt. So in human society, unnecessarily animal killing is going on. So they are entangled in sinful activities; therefore they are unable to understand what is God. Kern: Are you speaking specifically about all animal killing, Your Excellency? Or, how do you speak of animal killing? In other words, vegetarian living, is that what you're speaking of? *Prabhupāda: No, animal means the four*-legged animals. Vegetables are not called animals, even in dictionary. Kern: Does the group live a vegetarian life, without any meat? Is that what you're saying? Scheverman: I see. That's a basic principle of your way of life, is not eating any meat, any flesh. Prabhupāda: The verse..., I think there is no Bhāgavata here. The Second Canto, I think, it is said, The glorification of the Lord is done by the liberated persons. It is so nice, glorification of the Lord. So who can refrain from the glorification of the Lord unless he is animal killer? It is said there. Kern: The origin of the group, where...? Who was the original founder, Your Excellency? The original founder of the group? Prabhupāda: Which group? Kern: This group, your group, Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: I am the founder, I am the founder. Kern: You founded it. Prabhupāda: In 1966. Scheverman: 1966. And you utilized the traditions of oriental, especially Indian origin. *Prabhupāda: This book, this book. We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Scheverman: So this is a collection of the ancient writings as well as modern writings that reflect the way of life. Prabhupāda: This is the summary of all Vedic literature. Kern: Of what kind of literature? Prabhupāda: Vedic. Scheverman: Vedic, oh, yeah. Rakṣaṇa: *Vedas* means knowledge. Scheverman: This comes out of a Hindu record. *Prabhupāda: So, here in this Bhagavad*-gītā, it is ordered that the human society must be divided into four divisions, and they should cooperate for understanding God. Just like in our body there is the head, there is the arm, there is the belly and there is the leg. So they are all cooperating for maintaining the body. Although head is very important than the leg, but leg is also required. Simply head will not be able to keep the body in good condition. Scheverman: Yes, our Saint Paul uses that very imagery in his Epistle to the Corinthians, Tenth Chapter. Yes. *Prabhupāda: So that is mentioned in this book. So head means first*-class intelligent. A class of men. *Kern: How about people who aren't first*-class intelligence, people, as you mentioned, the foolish. What message...? *Prabhupāda: No, they should be trained up. The foolish man.... Just like a foolish child can be trained up to be very nicely educated to pass M.A. examination. Child is..., all children are foolish. That is accepted. But by training him, we can make him the first*-class intelligent man. Scheverman: Training and discipline is a very important aspect of your asceticism. Prabhupāda: But that training is wanted at the present moment. Scheverman: Yes, I think that, I would agree that the willingness of modern... Prabhupāda: There's no training to qualify a person to become first class. There is no training. Kern: I'm thinking of the retarded, the Mongoloid, the encephalitis, those who are born with... Prabhupāda: Nobody's born intelligent; that is not possible. Kern: No, I understand. You see, it mentions in there that.... I was thinking what message do you have for the parents of a child... Prabhupāda: How to train them first class. Kern: No, this is a retarded... Scheverman: A child that is born handicapped, intellectually handicapped. Kern: Cannot walk nor talk. Prabhupāda: Well, that is another.... That is exceptional. Generally, anyone is born, according to Vedic civilization, everyone is born fourth class. When he takes his birth, it is to be accepted he's a fourth class. Now by training, you can make him first class, second class, third class. By birth, everyone is fourth class. *Kern: I saw a film of a leader of ours, Jean Vanye(?) from Canada and France. He took five thousand retarded.... In Spanish, we say (indistinct), to Rome just for the experience. And they were all in wheelchairs, old and young and small ones*-not understanding very much, but a wonderful experience for them, the weak and the wounded. Jayādvaita: (explaining to Prabhupāda) One priest took many handicapped people, who... Prabhupāda: No, why you are speaking of handicapped? Who has taken the handicapped? Handicapped is handicapped. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Our program for them is also like this, to give them spiritual... Prabhupāda: No, no. Apart from that, we shall deal with the handicapped later on. Kern: That's my, that's my... Prabhupāda: First of all, we take the general people. Kern: No, but you were saying that you speak, you are looking for the intelligent, the... Prabhupāda: Not looking for. I am talking that anyone can be, I mean to say, elevated to the intellectual platform by training. Not the handicapped. Handicapped, there are special cases. That is another thing. Kern: But... Prabhupāda: Generally, everyone is born fourth class. Is to be understood. But by training such people you can make them division, first class, second class, third class. Scheverman: I think we certainly would have no quarrel with that. I think Father's concern is what is your message for, what is your attitude toward those who are handicapped in our society? How do you respond, how do you treat those? Prabhupāda: Handicapped.... Suppose your hand is cut. So I cannot bring another hand to join. It is not possible. Suppose your hand is cut. The handicap, now "handicut." So can I join any other hand? Is it possible? Kern: No, but... Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of... Kern: No, but you can..., my point is if a child would be born... Prabhupāda: I'm talking that those who are handicapped, by nature defective, we shall deal with them. That's all right. Kern: How? How do you deal with them? That's my question. Prabhupāda: Well, what? How you are dealing? You cannot. I told you that if your hand is cut, is it possible for me to add another hand in your body? Kern: No, but... *Prabhupāda: Then you are unable. You have to accept it. But as far as possible we can give them help. That is not the question. Question is, those who are not handicapped, they are rotting without education, without enlightenment by keeping themselves as fourth*-class, fifth-class men. Why not train them to become first-class men? That is the point. If one is blind, you cannot give him eyes. If one is lame, you cannot give him leg. That is beyond your ability. That is another thing; *we shall deal with them later on. First of all, those who are born as human beings, why should you keep them as third*-class, fourth-class men? Kern: So this is a development. Saint Ignatius did the same, somewhat. When he began, he sought the leadership. And he sought the intelligent, so that they might do what.... Obviously, you do it also, seeking the leadership that can then teach. We call it sometimes elitism, and this is perhaps a good word for it. Prabhupāda: So you find out the verse, satyaḥ śamo damas titikṣā, the qualification of brāhmaṇa. Here, it is meant, the first class, second class, third class, fourth class. Yes. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness-these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." Prabhupāda: This is first class. Again repeat that. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness." *Prabhupāda: So why they should not be educated to become first*-class men on this basis? Scheverman: That's right. I would agree that that is a worthy and very important goal. Prabhupāda: So where is that institution who is teaching these things? Kern: He said that the monastery did not teach this. I don't know if you can generalize about all monasteries. *Prabhupāda: I don't say monastery. I'm speaking that this is the way of training. Even a third*-class born or fourth-class born could become a first-class man. This training should be given. There must be an institution how to become peaceful, how to become truthful, how to become honest, how to become religious, how to become believer in God. Why not this institution? They have opened institutions how to learn to deal the hammer, technology. But if, in the society, there is no first-class man on this basis, then who will guide? If there is no brain, then who will guide the hand or the leg? Scheverman: So your particular plan is then to provide this kind of enlightenment, this kind of direction and education, through the ascetical process in which your group is involved. Yes. We, of course, have made efforts along this line through our schools and through our religious communities that have been successful more or less depending on efforts given to it. *Prabhupāda: The second*-class man is also described, who is the second class. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas," or the administrators. Prabhupāda: This is second class. They are not first class, they are second class. First class is above mentioned. Scheverman: The brāhmaṇa Prabhupāda: Yes, then second class. Second class also required. Scheverman: Also requires training, yes. *Prabhupāda: Suppose if there is war. So first*-class men, they cannot go to fight; *they are not trained up. But the second*-class man who is trained up.... What is that quality? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Courage in battle." Prabhupāda: Courage in battle. Now we have got report that in Vietnam battles, what happened? Hari-śauri: Whenever they fight, most of the soldiers run away. Prabhupāda: Run away. (laughter) He's fourth class. He has been placed in the second class. So how he'll do the... Scheverman: Yeah, but we have a principle called "A man tends to rise to the level of his incompetence." (laughter) *Prabhupāda: These are the defects of the society at the present moment. A fourth*-class, fifth-class man is on the first class or second class. Why Nixon had to be dragged down? He's a third-class man. *Scheverman: Third*-class man. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Scheverman: That's rather high on the ladder, I'd say, Your Excellency. (laughter) Prabhupāda: These mistakes are going on. One man's food is another man's poison. So one should not misplace what he's unable to do. *Scheverman: Many of these expressions that you are reading sound very similar to what we call the "Wisdom Literature" of the Old Testament of our Bible, of Syrac and Ecclesiastics and Ecclesiasticus, and also, of course, some of the sayings of Jesus are very close to what you're saying here. Jesus said "Seek first the kingdom of heaven, and all these other things will be added besides." That's the first*-class man, who's constantly working toward the kingdom. "Blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are the meek" and so on. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. If there is a first class, set a first*-class man on the head of the society, then everything will be done properly. Kern: In the Mass today Jesus said "You must be perfected as your heavenly father is perfect." Prabhupāda: Yes. That's nice. Scheverman: I was wondering if you had some plan, some thoughts in the way in which we could mutually cooperate for the... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. There is plan. Now suppose if I say "Let us create some peaceful man," so who will disagree with this? I don't say everyone will be peaceful, but some of them can be trained up. Some of them can be trained up courageous in battle. We have to select by practical psychology what is the tendency. Similarly we should divide,... Scheverman: In other words, you would utilize practical psychology in the selection of people for the various levels. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Kern: Well, you see, in our training for priests, our training for religious women and men, brothers, our people in this work would heartily agree in the need that there is for that training. Prabhupāda: There is. Just like I have already said that to keep your body in order you require to keep the head, the hands, the belly and the legs in order. Otherwise, there will be disorder. The present position of the whole human society is in disorder. Scheverman: So you are talking not only about an intellectual fitness development, but also a physical fitness of body to go along with that. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No. Hari-śauri: Social body. *Prabhupāda: Physical fitness, they are, this.... To keep the brain in order, that is also physical thing. So.... And the soldier trained up how to fight, that is also physical. But you cannot ask the high*-court judge to go and fight in the field. Both of them are physical, but you cannot ask the high-court judge, "Go and fight in the front." His business is different, his business is different. Scheverman: Each has a different role, function in the society. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kern: But that, that seems to abandon the foolish. Scheverman: Father Kern's concern is always for the poor, for the downtrodden, for those who suffer, for those who are deprived. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is imagination. That is never will be fulfilled. That is simply imagination. As I told you, that, what you can do? There are so many poor men. We can estimate like this: the rich men and the middle class men and the poor class men. These three orders are there everywhere. Scheverman: So you see that as in nature, as coming from the Lord God Himself, these three levels. Prabhupāda: Now, when I did not come to your country, I thought that in America, everyone is rich. Scheverman: (laughs) Most everyone in another country thinks everyone in America is rich, yes. There's only one class here. *Prabhupāda: But when I came here I saw so many bums*-are called bums? (laughter) They are lying on the street. Kern: But we think that... Prabhupāda: First of all, let me finish. So why, America, they are lying on the street? Kern: They're not. They're not. Prabhupāda: How, what can you do? Kern: A few are, but... Prabhupāda: Not few, many. Kern: No. Prabhupāda: Maybe few, but why there should be at all? Scheverman: You mean in a rich country like this, why should anyone be on the street? *Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything. There will be a third*-class or poor class man, which you even want to help them, they'll not accept your help. That is another thing. These three phases.... I have seen in London, the British Empire, and the hippies, they are lying on the park, and the police kicking, "Hey, ut, ut," (laughter) But I mean to say, the nature is law, nature's law, that a richer class, middle class and a poorer class. That will continue. Scheverman: Jesus said the poor you have always with you. But at the same time, he said we must go out and give what assistance we can as a Christian community. Prabhupāda: That assistance means to.... First of all, a man is... Scheverman: Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the homeless. Prabhupāda: A man is poor when he's in ignorance. Scheverman: So you see that as a greater poverty, is the ignorance, rather than the physical poverty of not having enough food. *Prabhupāda: So food problem can be solved simply by accepting.... That is also stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Find out. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. How everyone can.... Find out. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "All living bodies subsist on food grains which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by the performance of sacrifice, and sacrifice is born of prescribed duties." Prabhupāda: So if you produce enough food grains, both the man and the animal will live very peacefully. Food grains. And I've seen in your country, in America, in Africa, in Australia, so much vacant land without producing food grains. So men are not engaged to produce food grains, but they are brought in Detroit to manufacture of wheels of motorcar. Kern: For ambulances to bring the sick to the doctor. Prabhupāda: So we have to correct this. First of all, produce food. Scheverman: So if I understand you correctly, you are saying utilize intelligence to correct the problem. Produce more food rather than worry about the fact.... So that the poor can have to eat and the animals can have. So your approach, then, is not one of direct assistance to the person who is starving or suffering, but rather indirect, utilizing intelligence to produce food. Prabhupāda: Yes, and there will be no starvation. *Scheverman: It's an intellectual approach. I think our approach would be, we would be concerned with a person*-to-person assistance. That is the way, our way, that Jesus has taught us. He said, "Feed the hungry and harbor the harborless and visit the imprisoned." Prabhupāda: Yes. If you have got enough food grains.... Just like in our headquarter in Bengal, we are giving food daily, at least one thousand men. Scheverman: So you are feeding the hungry at your headquarters in (sic:) London. You do utilize then the direct approach as well. Prabhupāda: No, our process is that everyone who is hungry, come and take your food. But our program is going on, but feeding the poor is automatically there. If anyone comes to our temple, even here, anyone comes and take prasāda. Kern: Couldn't get in. If a poor person came here, they could not get in to eat. (laughing) Makhanlāl: No, we have many people coming from the neighborhood here. They are coming regularly. Even young children. Everything. They are coming. We have groups, community groups are coming. Kern: Oh, do you? Very good, that's fine. Scheverman: And we too. We have always responded to those who have a need for food or clothing or shelter. This comes to us every day, too. *Kern: But to make a person ask is not the right kind of society. Shouldn't, if a person be the first*-class citizen and therefore independent and therefore seek his own so that he could serve God by his own intelligence and his independence.... There's no virtue to be giving; it's more of a virtue to receive. Jayādvaita: He's suggesting that because we are requiring that a person come to us for food, that somehow this is interfering with his independence. *Prabhupāda: Where is that independence? With his family he can come and take food. What is wrong there? We say that we should not..., we are not simply supplying food. Anyone who is coming, he is getting spiritual education. Not that it is a free hotel. No. It is not that. We give them spiritual education. You come here, you take your shelter, you take your food and learn how to be first*-class man. That is our program. Don't be implicated in sinful activities. Be God conscious and live here with us comfortably, take your food. We have got this nice palace. Kern: Doctor, do you recruit people to come? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are inviting everyone come. We have no such distinction. Kern: I have four young alcoholics I'd like to send over. Prabhupāda: No, these boys and girls are not imported from India, recruited. They are recruited here. I came alone. They are all recruited. I have got so many centers all over the world. They are simply recruited. Scheverman: Your asceticism, your way of life, your training program, having its Eastern origins, has a great appeal, I think, for many young people. Prabhupāda: It is not Eastern, Western. It is the life. Just like to become peaceful, is it Eastern or Western? Peaceful is peaceful. Why do you bring Eastern? Scheverman: No, but the way in which, the method in which..., is it Eastern? This is not to say it is bad; it is good too. There are many traditions.... Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, it we look for Eastern, Western, then it become sectarian. But it is for all. If you teach a person to become peaceful, it is not the question of Eastern and Western. It is meant for everyone. Scheverman: Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers; they shall see God." Yes. Prabhupāda: That's right. That's right. So why should you say that it is Eastern or Western? Scheverman: Well your methodology, much of your personal vocabulary, your garb, is from the East. Prabhupāda: It is not personal. It may be said that in Eastern countries or in India, these things are very much appreciated and developed. That is another thing. But the thing as it is, it is neither Eastern or Western. Scheverman: Oh, good. I grant it that the principles that you are utilizing are general and universal, granted. Kern: May I ask you, Your Excellency, your own background? Were you born in India? Were you born in any other...? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am Indian. I was born in Calcutta. Kern: In Calcutta. And when you were there in Calcutta, did you receive the training? Prabhupāda: Yes. I..., fortunately I was born in a very good family. So our familywise training was there. Especially in India, every family, it is like that. Trained up. Kern: And your own schooling, then, in the local schools in Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not in the school, but in my family. Kern: In the family. Any formal? *Prabhupāda: Not family. My mother taught us: if there is one grain on the floor, we shall take it, keep it on the head. It is God*-sent. Kern: Yes, and our mothers too, the same thing. *Prabhupāda: It is God*-sent. The grain, food grain, it is actually given by God. You should not misuse it. This was the beginning of our training. Kern: And then were you at the university or the school or somewhere? Prabhupāda: Yes, Calcutta University. I was taught at the Scottish Churches College. All my professor's were Fathers and Reverends. Our principal was.... They were all Fathers. Mr. Scott. Scheverman: They were clergymen of the Church of Scotland, your teachers. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. My professor of philosophy was Dr. W. S. Urquhart. He was a very famous man in India. He became vice chancellor. Kern: Did you then begin, after you finished the university, did you begin your writing? *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I was family man. But even one is family man, he's trained up how to become God conscious. So that was the.... That is, practically every Indian, at least in our time, they were trained up how to become God conscious in the family life. Therefore there is classification*-the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya. So these four classes, that first-class man, brāhmaṇa, the brain..., taking instruction from the first-class man. And then the third grade, the productive class. So you read there the third class. Scheverman: So I can see that this is probably an important element that appeals to most of the young people that come to you is this training that can be received in this particular way. I can also see too that somewhere..., I'd like to move into this area of religious experience. Prabhupāda: I shall request that.... There is no question of Eastern, Western. Now people are intermingling. Now I think that we shall have institution, especially in America, to train these first class, second class, third class, and the balance fourth class. Who cannot take up any training, they are fourth class. So how they should be trained up, that indication is there. It is not the question of Eastern and Western. You become peaceful... Scheverman: Now, how would you proceed in this training program? I'd be interested in that. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is.... If I say that "Live peacefully," this instruction is neither exclusively for America or Indian. It is for everyone. Scheverman: That's universal, peaceful, that's universal. Prabhupāda: Universal. What is another quality? Peaceful, and then? *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Self*-control. *Prabhupāda: Self*-control. This is also not either for American or.... "The Americans should not be self-controlled, only Indians should be self-controlled." (laughter) This is not the proposal. Self-control. Then? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Austerity. Prabhupāda: Austerity. Tapasya. Austerity means that naturally I am inclined to do something. Take, for example, generally people are addicted or inclined to eat meat or to drink. Natural. Not for all, but a class. But if I train him that "Although you like this, you should give up this," that is austerity. He feels some inconvenience in the beginning. Scheverman: Austeritos is a Latin word that refers to strength. To be able to stand and be sharp and deciding. Prabhupāda: So this is austerity, when voluntarily accepting something which he does not like to give up. That is austerity. Scheverman: Disciplined. Prabhupāda: Discipline, yes. *Devotee (1): As well as self*-controlled. Prabhupāda: So in order to go to the highest status of life, he has to accept some austerity, tapasya. Especially for God realization. Austerity required. Then? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Purity. *Prabhupāda: Purity. So our purity.... Not our*-everyone. Externally, internally. Externally, by taking bath or cleansing the body with soap of something else. And internally, to remain God conscious. Kern: Internally to what? Prabhupāda: Remain God conscious. Scheverman: Remain God conscious. Prabhupāda: Simply washing externally will not help us. Therefore our mantra of purity is bāhyābhyantara-śuciḥ. Śuciḥ means purified. Scheverman: Means? Prabhupāda: Purified. Scheverman: Purified, yes. Prabhupāda: So purification, simply externally rubbing soap and cleansing the coat and shirt, that is not purification. Internally he must be pure. Peaceful. Then, purity? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Tolerance. *Prabhupāda: Tolerance. This is also one of the good qualifications for the first*-class man. Then? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Honesty. Prabhupāda: Honesty. So there are so many things. If we want to make the whole human society very peaceful and happy, then we have to divide the society into four classes. Not that everyone will be peaceful. That is not possible. But if we have an ideal class of men who is following austerity, peacefulness, purity, knowledge, people will learn: "Oh, here is the ideal class." Kern: Mr. Gandhi had a great effect. Prabhupāda: Yes. That training is lacking now. Scheverman: I think all over the world it is lacking, it is needed, right. *Prabhupāda: All over the world, yes. Therefore.... In your country.... You are opulent in every respect. You should.... We are cooperating, we can cooperate. Let us start that "Here is a school or college..." Just like there is engineering college, technological.... Here is a college to learn how to become first*-class men. Why not? Scheverman: It is part of your plan to operate schools for this purpose? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Scheverman: You hope eventually to have schools where training of this kind can be given. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. Kern: When did you begin, Your Excellency? Prabhupāda: I began.... What do you mean by beginning? My beginning is from my childhood. Kern: The Kṛṣṇa movement, in the Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa movement I started 1966. Kern: '66. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kern: In the West? In California? Prabhupāda: Here in your America. Scheverman: America. I would like perhaps to hear some of your thoughts on the area of religious experience, God consciousness, how do you achieve that? Prabhupāda: I wrote one letter to your secretary. Mādhavānanda: The President? Prabhupāda: Yes. (to devotee) What is the purport? You just explain. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda wrote that on the bills, the monetary, on the coins or whatever, they put "In God We Trust," but actually no one understands. If you want to trust someone, then you have to know who that person is, you have to know that he's actually trustworthy. So he was asking that we could cooperate together, the American government and our movement, and we could train people practically how to trust God, like that. So Prabhupāda sent that letter. But that was a month ago, and there's still no reply. Scheverman: To the Secretary of the Treasury? Is that it? Devotees: The Secretary of the President. Scheverman: The President, White House Secretary, his personal secretary. Hari-śauri: So far, after one month, there's no reply. Scheverman: Bureaucracy. We have lots of that. You may get a reply, and then again you may not. You'll get a reply, but it would be very general I presume, originally. It's a good idea. *Prabhupāda: No, I think that for the welfare of the whole human society.... America is opulent. They can start, that here is a college for training first*-class men. Here is a college for training second-class men, and here is a college for third-class men, and balance fourth class. Fourth-class man doesn't require any training. They are simply to help the first class, second class, third class. Kern: That would be difficult. (laughs) Scheverman: That is one of the difficulties we have in this country. Everybody wants to be first class. *Prabhupāda: What is difficulty? You do not like to train first*-class men? Scheverman: Everybody wants to be first class. Prabhupāda: Yes, so why not train him? If I simply by imagination, that "I have become first class," will that do? Simply by imagination, I have become a medical man, will that do? You must have training. Scheverman: So you say put him in a training program, and if he can make it, okay, and if he can't make it, then he'll be..., he goes as far as he can in training program. Prabhupāda: Yes, that process we can help. Therefore how to become peaceful. Kern: Are all the people here first class? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are training them at least. Kern: We're training them for first class *Prabhupāda: To become first class. Because there is a great need of first*-class men. Scheverman: Indeed there is, indeed there is. Kern: Do you have any in training for second class? Prabhupāda: No, for the time being. (laughs) We have no means. Suppose.... Second class means he must be courageous to fight. So I have no means how to train them, you see? And without training, the second class, if you send him to the war, the experience is they will flee away. The many enemies coming, and they are going away. Scheverman: Are you training people to become teachers in this school, this process of education? *Prabhupāda: Yes, as soon as you become. Without being first*-class man, you cannot teach. A second-class, third-class, fourth-class man is not meant for teaching. Scheverman: Where would you do this teaching? Prabhupāda: Teaching everywhere, wherever there is possibility. Kern: Do you do this by yourself? Are there any teachers? Prabhupāda: No, I give them ideas, they go and teach. It is not one man's business. Kern: No, I understand. Will you be here a good long while? Or will you be going to... Prabhupāda: The thing is that I have established so many centers. So I have to go from one center to another just to encourage them. Otherwise I am old enough. I am eighty years. So traveling is not very good job for me, but still I do it just to encourage them. Kern: Do.... Your lines of authority then come from you, or is it an elective authority? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is work on higher authority. Kern: In other words, there would be no election. Like if you go to San Francisco... Prabhupāda: No, I have got my secretaries. I have got about twenty secretaries who are in charge of some group of temples. Scheverman: I see. And you appoint the secretaries then who are in charge of the groups, each local group. Prabhupāda: Yes. I try to manage as far as possible, but I'm not getting any government's cooperation. It is all my personal endeavor. Scheverman: Do you hope to acquire school buildings for teaching school? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? If there is arrangement for financing such school we can start, very nice. Kern: Father would sell you a fine school. Scheverman: We have a building that will be available shortly (laughs) if you want to start a school. Prabhupāda: So let us cooperate. Scheverman: (laughs) Let us cooperate. And your teachers. There's no question about the kind of thing you're talking about here is needed. *Prabhupāda: "Father" means responsibility. According to our Vedic literature, one should not become a father unless he can deliver his son from the cycle of birth and death. Pitā na sa syāj na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum. At the present moment we are in the cycle of birth and death in the conditioned stage. So it is the duty of the father how to save the son from the cycle of birth and death. This is responsibility. Scheverman: The last word I didn't..., the cycle of? Prabhupāda: Birth and death. Scheverman: Birth and death, right, right. Prabhupāda: Because, I have got this life, you have got this life, so we shall give up this body, we have to accept another body. We have to enter again in the womb of the mother, and packed up for so many months. And nowadays there's a risk of losing life also. The mother is killing child. Scheverman: There's an area hopefully where we might be able to cooperate, this area of slaughter, senseless slaughter. *Prabhupāda: So many things. It is going on. So unless there is first*-class man, who will guide them? *Kern: I think you ought to eliminate the second*-class man who are soldiers. If you're training a man to be a soldier, he wants to fight. Prabhupāda: That's all right; fighting is also required. When there is enemy, we are not discarding fighting. Fighting there will be. So long we are in the material world, there will be disagreement and there will be fight. You cannot stop it; *that is not possible. So a class of men, they should be trained up fighting. A class of men, they should be trained up for teaching. A class of men for producing food. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. There are so many things. If you take advantage of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement cooperatively, it will be very, very good for the whole human society. And if your America takes up this call very seriously, others will follow. Scheverman: Well I would be very interested, as the man who lives across the street right over here, pastor of St. Mark's parish, in talking with your local leadership and discussing whatever programs you are interested in working in this particular community. And I think perhaps... *Prabhupāda: No community*-everyone is welcome. Scheverman: Well, there are ways in which we might work together and cooperate. Prabhupāda: Just like a school. A school is open for everyone. Whoever wants to take up education, he can come. Scheverman: I can understand that very well, because I have been a teacher for many years, and also the principal of the school, and can understand your educational concepts and the importance of them. You cannot operate a school without discipline, without training. People cannot use their brains useless they are in order. Prabhupāda: No, there must be proper training. Kern: God consciousness..., would you explain something of the religious experience of God consciousness? Prabhupāda: No, God consciousness is the highest level. It is not possible for everyone. But in whatever platform he is, if there is cooperation with God consciousness movement, then he gets the result. Just like in this body.... Same example: leg's duty is different and brain duty is different, hand's duty is different, belly's duty different, but when there is cooperation, all the parts of the body derive the same benefit. Scheverman: Yes, I see. So if one has the experience of God in a cooperative, well, good and sound social body, then all will profit from that experience. Prabhupāda: Yes. Scheverman: I'd like to perhaps ask you, what is the role of prayer? You may have another word that you utilize. Devotee (1): Prayer is also accepted as devotional service. Scheverman: As devotional service. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are nine kinds of devotional service. They are all the same. Different processes. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam [SB 7.5.23]. Vandanam, this vandanam is prayer. We are worshiping, Deity worship, and you are offering prayers in the church. So both of them we take as devotional service. We don't say that because you are offering prayer, it is less important than.... No. Because it is, prayer is offered to the Supreme Lord. So that is devotional. That is devotion. Scheverman: Yes, so prayer then is devotion offered to the Supreme Lord. Prabhupāda: Supreme Lord, they are accepting the Supreme Lord. Yes. Accepting the Supreme Lord. Scheverman: It's a sign of one's acceptance. *Prabhupāda: Anyone, yes, that is also very pious. If you accept the Supreme Lord, then you become pious immediately. Catur*-vidhā. Find out this, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna. Kern: Is the prayer communal, where all take part in the prayer, or is it individual? Prabhupāda: But there are different classes of men. So therefore nine methods of devotional service. And the general method is hearing. Hearing about God. Scheverman: Hearing about God. So therefore the necessity of speaking aloud in one's prayer. Yes. The father was speaking of the charismatics among Christians. That is one of their tenets, too, speaking a prayer, praise, aloud, so that it can be heard and all simultaneously join in it too. Prabhupāda: And if factually one hears from the right source and the right words, automatically he becomes God conscious. Scheverman: Becomes God conscious, that is a way of... Prabhupāda: What is that? *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "O best among the Bhāratas, four kind of pious men render devotional service unto Me*-the distressed, the desirer of wealth, the inquisitive, and he who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute Truth." Prabhupāda: These are four classes. One distressed, he also seeks the help of God. And another? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The desirer of wealth. Prabhupāda: Yes. In need of money, "God, I am so poor. Kindly give me some money." So he's approached God. That is his piety. Although God should not be asked. Pure devotion means God should not be bothered. Simply we shall render service. "God is great. I am His servant. So my duty is to render service without any profit." The profit is there. To be accepted as God's servant, that is the greatest profit. *Scheverman: That's what Jesus said: "Behold the lilies of the field, they neither toil nor spin, and yet not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these. Seek first the kingdom of heaven, and all these things*-what you shall eat, what you shall drink-shall be added to you besides." Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Jijñāsu, the inquisitive, curious. Prabhupāda: Inquisitive, one is trying to understand what is God, and he is also pious. Scheverman: "Lord teach me, show me." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Kern: Do you use the Bible for that? *Scheverman: Do you use the Judeo*-Christian scriptures at all in your work? Prabhupāda: I know that there are good instructions. So generally.... We haven't got to fight with anyone or disagree. We have to accept the general principles for the welfare of the whole human society. Just like to become peaceful: it is the duty of everyone. At least, those who are in the top rank. (aside:) Just bring. First of all, give it to the Father. (referring to prasādam or garlands?) Devotees: Jaya! This is from the altar. Scheverman: Praise God, for His beautiful things. Prabhupāda: Give. Give one to the president. Kern: We are grateful for the time that you have given us. Prabhupāda: I am also very much obliged that you came. Kern: And we are happy. And if we can be helpful, we would be... Prabhupāda: Yes, let us cooperate for the whole human society. Scheverman: I feel very much like one of the disciples, so to speak, coming with the master, and it's a great privilege to be able to join this circle this evening. Devotees: Jaya! Haribol. Scheverman: Thank you. Oh, we're to eat this? Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, that's what it's meant for. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Father, would you please accept one of our Bhagavad*-gītās for your library? Scheverman: Thank you very much. I cook once in a while, too, so I'm very interested in what the ingredients are for various kinds of food. Hari-śauri: We can teach you how to cook very expertly. Scheverman: Very good. Devotee (1): Chick pea flour, butter and sugar, nuts, dried fruit. Pālikā: They're very nice. Scheverman: May I take it with me? Pālikā: Oh, yes. Scheverman: All right, thank you. Prabhupāda: Take more also, give him one more. Scheverman: They're very good. I'm afraid I won't be very enlightened if I eat all this. Hari-śauri: You have the Fathers' shoes? Scheverman: We'll get them when we go down. It's a great pleasure. May the Lord bless you in your work. Continue. Pālikā: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very nice to meet you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Scheverman: We'll see you in.... (priests depart) Prabhupāda: Somebody's going (indistinct) Jayādvaita: These priests like to be in the position of your disciples. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jayādvaita: These Christian priests. Prabhupāda: If you remain to your principles, you can make the whole world your disciple. Pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. You have read that? Jayādvaita: Yes. Upadeśāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. If one is a gosvāmī, *You'll be accepted. We don't speak Eastern*-Western. We speak for everywhere. Or Christian or Hindu. We never speak like that. I think I never said like that, that: "Our Eastern people think like that, Hindus think..." I never said. Why shall I say? It is for everyone. If you do not become peaceful, that is your business. But when I say "You become peaceful," that is meant for everyone. All right. Devotees: Jaya (kīrtana) (end) *Room Conversation-*-June 15, 1976, Detroit (several devotees conversing about doctors and hepatitis before Prabhupāda enters, offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: You can make little chewra. Pālikā: Same way Hari-śauri is making? Prabhupāda: Hm. Pālikā: Same, chewra. Hari-śauri: It's on now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's on. That priest was very responsive. It's very nice. Prabhupāda: He wanted to become student. Hari-śauri: (laughs) He was becoming very enthusiastic. He was very enlivened. Anyone with a little intelligence, as soon as you begin to speak to them, they, immediately, they become so much enlivened. He's obviously, he's had some idea about organization and whatever, but he's never seen it practiced. And now he's come here and seen it practical. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is practical training. That is wanted. Simply theoretical knowledge.... That is helpful, but training, that is the greatest need, that we have to create a set of first*-class men. Then the world will be all right. That is an attempt of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to make first class, ideal. Why they'll be attracted? They are seeing that "The priests are doing the same thing as we are doing." So how they will be attracted? Therefore Christianity is failing. They are also having the meat, illicit sex, drunkard, and they're priest. Hari-śauri: They've watered down so much, there's no value left to what they're doing. They're exactly the same as a man in the street, except he says he believes in God and the man on the street says he doesn't believe. And they have no ability to convince a man that God exists. They have no scientific knowledge or whatever. Prabhupāda: Simply by the position: "I am Cardinal," "I am Pope," "I am priest," "I am that." How long it will go on? Hari-śauri: It's not going on very much longer anyway, there's so many, it's falling apart. There's so many branches, just the fact that there's so many divisions now of Christianity, that this man was speaking about this charismatic movement. Now this is the young people. They're feeling a need for God, so they're trying to express it through another concocted form of Christianity. But that will also be a failure. Prabhupāda: Let us try honestly, that's all. Hari-śauri: As long as we can preach very purely, then the effect will be there. Prabhupāda: So by this time, we shall be in Toronto tomorrow. Hari-śauri: Yes. 5:45 the plane leaves. So we'll be there by 6; 00, 6:40, something like that. They don't have a garden there, though. Prabhupāda: Time difference the same? No time difference? Hari-śauri: I don't think so. Oh, we'll have to go through customs though. It's Canada, so we have to travel through customs. Prabhupāda: We require passport? Visa? You've got? Hari-śauri: I think so. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja already has it sorted out. My U.S. visa allows me to travel outside the country and come back in unlimited amount of times. I don't.... In Toronto also, one boy there was telling us that the priest that was selling that church, he said that he would rather burn it down than sell it to us. But because this Indian man bought it for us, then we were able to get it. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. It was sold to somebody else. But because it is an old church, the government municipality would not allow to break it. Then the man who purchased, he was obliged to sell to us. Hari-śauri: That's an exact duplicate of the situation that happened in Melbourne. That place was sold to a property developer, and then the National Trust put a classification on it, so he was not able to break it down, and neither could he utilize the extra space in the yard for building flats, because the council would not allow him. So then we.... Originally they would not sell to us. Prabhupāda: Same thing here. Nobody would purchase it on account of this black quarter. Nobody was purchasing, ready to purchase. Hari-śauri: So Kṛṣṇa is saving some very nice places for us. Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's trick. Everyone talks of the "We Eastern, we believe in this," and "We Western, we believe in this." You remain peaceful, everyone. Everyone is thinking like this. We have no such thing, Eastern, Western. It is fact. For everyone, it is good. Eastern, Western, we don't take. Several times, this question.... I talk, I spoke in the American Embassy in Calcutta. They gave me the subject matter, "East and West." So I, in the beginning, I began to speak that we have no such dual..., East and West. Hari-śauri: Hm. It's a higher consciousness. Prabhupāda: If she can make samosā... Hari-śauri: With the chewra. Prabhupāda: No, chewra may be avoided. Samosā. One will do. Hari-śauri: Either chewra or samosā, or both? Prabhupāda: No. Either of them. Hari-śauri: One or the other. Prabhupāda: Yes. But I shall prefer samosā. Hari-śauri: Oh, I'd better go down before she starts, then. (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 16, 1976, Detroit Prabhupāda: ...wrong yesterday? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, you were right on the mark Prabhupāda, always. The old man, the other night, when you said that, he said, "This is something like elitism." Prabhupāda: Elitism? What is that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think it's only for a certain section of people. *Prabhupāda: Gentlemen class. Without first*-class man, what is the use of second-class, third-class men. They will ever remain in the darkness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Christians have a tendency to disbelieve that man can lead man back to God. They think that Christ, or God comes, and then, like this. It doesn't matter what quality of men they are. Prabhupāda: God comes, when God says, "Come to the kingdom of God," that is God comes (indistinct). Hariśauri: No, he's saying that God can take you there, but then after God's... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Christians themselves, throughout the centuries, they have no faith that someone can be so much exalted that they can lead human society. In other words, the Christians have no faith that actually someone can become God conscious. Devotee: They say Christ is God. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say everyone is sinful; therefore what is the use? Prabhupāda: Everyone sinful, therefore.... Christ is not sinful, therefore somebody may be sinful. Hariśauri: But their whole philosophy is that no one can be sinless except Christ. Prabhupāda: That's all right, then why don't you follow Christ? Christ says "Thou shall not kill," then why do you interpret? "Christ ate meat, therefore we shall open slaughterhouse," this is rascaldom. This rascaldom (indistinct). Because maybe somewhere he has eaten fish, therefore, by following in his footsteps, we shall open slaughterhouse and kill thousands of animals daily. The evidence is Christ has eaten fish. Do they not say that? And they are Christians. All others are sinful (indistinct), that's all right, why don't you kill (indistinct). Several times these Christians (indistinct). *Devotee: Everyone in the world is becoming tenth*-class men, but Śrīla Prabhupāda is turning the whole thing around. Had you not come, there would be no hope for the whole world. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say that "Thou shalt not kill," that's okay, but this is an impossible instruction. Prabhupāda: This is rascaldom. Hariśauri: That's a common philosophy. The Ten Commandments are there, but they're an ideal that no one can ever achieve. Prabhupāda: Then you go to hell, rascaldom. (last two minutes of tape indistinct) (end) *Interview with Kathy Kerr Reporter from The Star-*-June 17, 1976, Toronto Kathy Kerr: Umm, I was wondering what brings you to Canada right now. Is it some particular occasion you're... Prabhupāda: You can answer all these questions. Jayādvaita: I can.... Why Śrīla Prabhupāda is coming, he's visiting different centers around the world. I can fill you in on most of the details about the society and dates and times and so on. You might prefer to ask Śrīla Prabhupāda a little more about the philosophy of our movement. Kathy Kerr: Ah. Very well. Okay, I understand that this is an extension of Hindu religion. Is that not correct? No, it's not. Does it have any basic tenets of the Hindu religion? *Prabhupāda: There is no such word as Hindu religion. You do not know. There is no such word as Hindu religion, at least in the Vedas. The religion is translated into Sanskrit as "characteristic." Religion is not a kind of faith. Just like chemical composition. Sugar is sweet*-that is religion. Sugar must be sweet. Sugar cannot be pungent. Or chili must be pungent. If chili is sweet, we reject it, and sugar is pungent, you reject it. Similarly, our Vedic system is to train the human being to the ultimate goal of his life. That system is called varṇāśrama-dharma, gradually training the person how to become perfect human being and understand the goal of his life. That is our activity. It is not meant for any particular sect or particular nation. No. It is meant for the whole human society, how to make them perfect in the goal of his life. Kathy Kerr: Through what means do you train the human being to become, to achieve his ultimate goal in life? *Prabhupāda: To understand his spiritual identification. At the present moment, this age, all over the world, things are passing on on the bodily concept of life. But we are not this body. That is the defect of modern civilization, that there are two things*-one, the body; and the moving force which is moving the body. So they are taking care of the body, but they have no information what is that moving force. They are presenting some foolish theories that the body is moving by chemical composition, by this, that, but actually they do not know what is there. The chemical composition..., what is that? Frankenstein or something? Jayādvaita: Frankenstein. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: These foolish things are going on. They think the body, by some chemical and physical combination and electric power.... Although they have not been able to do so, but still they'll theorize like that. In this way the whole human society is going on in a deep, ignorant platform. So, that is the defect of the human society at the present moment, and we are trying to mend this defect by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. People are trying to understand. Our books are being very nicely received by the educated circle. We have got so many books. About, for the time, we have got over fifty*-four books like this. This book is selling very nicely, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. We have printed recent edition, 350,000 copies, that is finished. Again we are going to print 500,000 copies. So it is a great science meant for all human beings, not for the Hindus or the Muslim or the Christian. Science, mathematic, is meant for everyone. So it is spiritual science. Everyone should take advantage of it. Otherwise what was the use of my.... I have not come here to preach Hindu religion. Why you should take Hindu religion? You are already Christian. So what is use of replacing Christian religion to Hindu religion? We have no such distinction. We are not after increasing the number of Hindus; we are after making the human being perfect in knowledge. That is our aim. Kathy Kerr: Do you believe then that there is more than one way? Prabhupāda: There is only one way. Just like the spirit soul is within you and within me. Your skin may be white, my skin may be colored, but within, the spirit soul, what is there in you, that is in me also. There is not change on account of the body. Therefore to understand that spirit soul, there is only one way. There is no second way. Because it is not experimental; it is already there. If it is based on experiment and observation, then my experiment, your experiment may be different. But it is a fact that the soul is there, and as soon as the soul is gone from the body, the body is a dead lump of matter. That you have to understand. And any gentleman, any sensible man can understand it, that soul is there although we are changing body. Just like you were a child. That's a fact. But where is that child's body? Now your body's different. Is it not a fact? What do you think? So where is that body, your child's body? Kathy Kerr: It's material, I would say. Prabhupāda: Material. When you were on the lap of your mother the body was so small. Now you are a young girl and you are.... So where is that small body? That means you have changed bodies. But your mother knows that you are the same, "My child." Because you have grown up or you have changed your body, your mother will not cry "Where is my child?" She knows that "My child is there, but she has changed body." Why these people do not understand this plain truth? Suppose you have come in this dress; *next moment you come in another dress. But if I know you I'll not mistake because you have changed your dress. Similarly, we are changing our dress from baby to child, child to boy, boy to young man, young man to middle*-aged man, constantly changing, every moment. Medical science also says. The blood corpuscles are changed every moment. So we are changing our body every moment. But still we cannot understand that on account of change of body, the living force within the body does not change. Is there any difficulty to understand? Kathy Kerr: No. Does that mean then that the basic, your basic self, your basic spirit then, is innocent basically? Like if it's the same spirit throughout your life from the moment you were born on, then it is innocent and you can, you can achieve fullness... Prabhupāda: Now first of all, let us accept that the basic principle is the soul. Now whether he is innocent or evil, that we shall consider later on. First of all, the basic power is the spirit soul. First of all we have to understand that the spirit soul is there always, although we are changing bodies. This first principle has to be.... But they do not understand. This education is lacking. Kathy Kerr: Do you advocate then that one deny the body? Like comforts and so forth, in order to... Prabhupāda: No, why deny the body? Just like you are putting some type of dress. So dress is not unimportant. But real importance is you, the person. So where is that education about the real person? They are simply engrossed with the dress. This is going on. Such kind of mentality is there even within the cats and dogs. He's also thinking "I am this body." If a human being does not understand this fact, that he is not this body, he is changing his body, but he is spirit soul, then he is no better than the cats and dogs. We do not want to keep the human society in the category of cats and dogs. We want to raise them to the real understanding of his identification. That is our mission. It is neither Hindu religion or Muslim religion or.... This is science. Kathy Kerr: I notice all your followers obviously dress similarly and so forth. *Prabhupāda: We cannot get many followers. Because everyone is under this impression, "I am this body." And to get him released from this conception is not so easy job. So we cannot expect many thousands and millions. Only selected fortunate people will understand it. But everyone can understand it. It is very simple thing. But the modern education has made them so dull brain, they cannot understand, neither do they try to understand. That is the difficulty. Matter, subject matter, is very simple thing. I am changing bodies, but in spite of my change of body, I am the spirit soul existing. This is the first understanding. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20], that I am not dead on account of my body being finished. My childhood body is finished, my boyhood body is finished, my youth*-hood body is finished, but I am existing. I can remember that I was in such body, I was in such body, in such circumstances. When I was a child I was talking like this, I was jumping like this. But because that body is finished, I cannot do that. Now I have got a different body, I cannot jump like a child. This simple truth. But I know that I was jumping. That is not dream, that's a fact. But we are educated in such a foolish way that we cannot understand this simple truth. That has to be amended. Otherwise, there is no question of enlightenment in the human society. Kathy Kerr: Do you feel that it's any help.... For instance, one of your followers here mentioned that the university here in Toronto is teaching your books and so forth. Do you feel that any contact with your ideas... Prabhupāda: It is not my idea, it is fact. It is not my idea. Kathy Kerr: Well not necessarily.... With these truths, with these basic truths, do you think that is helping people realize themselves, or do they have to go into a more... Prabhupāda: Yes, that you can ask my students. We have not bribed them. I am Indian, poor Indian. So why they are sticking to me? Ask them. They'll describe. Kathy Kerr: Could you tell us? When was your first contact with the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Jayādvaita: About nine years ago. Kathy Kerr: And how did you become a Kṛṣṇa. Jayādvaita: Meeting the devotees and reading the books. We had fewer books then. But you read. Also you can read these books, they're not just for us. Read a little. You'll understand. Kathy Kerr: You were saying that you're not necessarily trying to get a large number of devotees, but you think there are a few people who are yet ready to accept? Prabhupāda: Anyone we can accept. If he is interested to become learned in this subject matter, he's welcome. Kathy Kerr: Can a person follow your movement, the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, without necessarily going into a temple and concentrating on your attentions?(?) Jayādvaita: It's a kind of education. So to get that education you have to go to the institution. If you want to get an education in chemistry you go to college. Not that you have to.... It's not.... Yes, you have to come to the place where this is being taught. It doesn't mean you have to give up everything, but you have to take education from the recognized authority. Kathy Kerr: Does it ever end? *Jayādvaita: No, no. In Bhagavad*-gītā it's described as avyayam. It means there's no end of it. More and more. Devotee (1): But living in the temple is not necessary to engage in Kṛṣṇa conscious activities. You can engage outside also, take advantage of reading the books and visiting the temple, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kathy Kerr: Do you consider that going..., your movement then is basically more of an educational movement than a religious movement. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Educational. It is religious, but it is not a man*-made religious. Our idea.... I have already explained that our idea of religion means that like the sugar, it must be sweet. It is not that in Europe sugar is not sweet, in India it is sweet. Sugar, wherever it is, it is sweet. Similarly, the soul, the spirit soul is the same everywhere. So he, the spirit soul, is now embodied within this material body, and he is suffering on account of this material body. So we are teaching everyone how to get out of this material body and stay in his original, spiritual body. This is our real movement. This is another way..., another name is liberation. We are suffering within this body. Our suffering means on account of this body. So if there is such science how to continue our life without changing body, that science we are teaching. It is purely educational. Kathy Kerr: Do you believe then that when your physical body dies, that your spiritual body... Prabhupāda: That I have already explained, that your physical body as child's body, dead, gone. How you are living? This simple truth we cannot understand. Where is this child's body? Where is that, can you answer? Kathy Kerr: Child's body? Prabhupāda: Yes, you had a body, a small child's body. Is it not? Kathy Kerr: Yes. Prabhupāda: You were a child. So where is that child's body? Kathy Kerr: Well, you say it's changed. Prabhupāda: Changed, or another body you have got. Change means another body. If you dress your child, you get another.(?) So it is simple truth. So you have got another body or another dress, but you are still living. This simple truth they cannot understand, and they are advanced in education. Kathy Kerr: Does that mean then that once the immediate corporal body is dead, the one that you have... Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to conclude.... This is, what is called, logic, that my, I have changed my body, still I am living. Therefore when I change this body, I shall live. This is the logic. Kathy Kerr: Does your spiritual body keep the same training that you... *Prabhupāda: Same, that is another.... Just like you are in different type of dress, I am in different type of dress, that is another thing. Dress may be changed in different types, but I, the owner of the dress, is the same. Now a person, the same person, when he's dressed as a high*-court judge, he's dealing differently in the high-court. And the same person, after giving up his garment of high-court judge, he talks with the wife and children in a different way, talking. The wife does not address him, "My lord." The wife calls, Mr. John. "John, why you are doing this?" She has no respect, as the respect he gets in the court. Man is the same, circumstance is different. Kathy Kerr: So that means then that our society then gives certain people certain status just because of their job, that's not correct. *Prabhupāda: Yes. We must come to the correct position of our spiritual life, then it is perfection of life. Otherwise, they're ignorant. If the husband comes at home and the wife calls him by the name, "John, come here." "Oh, you are not addressing 'my lord,' " it will be ridiculous. He might be "my lord," in the court, but when he's in the family, the wife calls by the name. So our, with the change of dress we are changing our name, circumstances, thoughts, and everything. Therefore we find differentiation. American, Indian, Hindu, Muslim, black, white, this, these are all designation of the dress. And therefore we do not agree. As soon as I accept, identify myself with the dress, there will be disagreement. And as soon as we, everyone of us, we know that this is superficial, this is dress, I am spirit soul, then there will be agreement. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, find out this verse. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 18.54]. So without this understanding they have opened United Nations, keeping them cats and dogs. And they are simply barking, that's all. This is going on. For the last forty years simply they are barking. What achievement is there? In your country, who is the president gave the black man same liberty? Jayādvaita: Lincoln. Prabhupāda: Lincoln. Equal right, but actually, there is some tension, black and white. Because they are not on the spiritual platform. Viśvakarmā: In Canada, Prabhupāda, it's the French and the English. Prabhupāda: Everywhere, some tension. The Catholic, the Protestant; the black, the white; the Hindu, the Muslim. That must go on because if we accept on the platform of dress, of body, then there must be ignorance. Read that verse and explain to her. Jayādvaita: "One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman and becomes fully joyful. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me." Prabhupāda: Equally disposed. As soon as he knows that I am not this body, I am spirit soul, then there is no distinction. Just like two American goes to India. So when they understand that "We are Americans," immediately their interest becomes one, although they are in the foreign country. That is psychology. Similarly, as soon as we come to the spiritual platform, there is no such distinction as black, white, Hindu, Muslim, Christian. Everything finished. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. You are reading the purport? *Jayādvaita: Purport: "To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma*-bhūta [SB 4.30.20] stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word. But for the personalist, or pure devotee, one has to go still further to become engaged in pure devotional service. This means that one who is engaged in pure devotional service to the Supreme Lord is already in a state of liberation, called brahma-bhūta, oneness with the Absolute. Without being one with the Supreme, the Absolute, one cannot render service unto Him. In the absolute conception, there is no difference between the served and the servitor; yet the distinctions is there, in a higher spiritual sense. In the material concept of life, when one works for sense gratification, there is misery, but in the absolute world, when one is engaged in pure devotional service, there is no misery. The devotee in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has nothing to lament or desire. Since God is full, a living entity who is engaged in God's service, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, becomes also full in himself. He is just like a river cleansed of all dirty water. Because a pure devotee has no thought other than Kṛṣṇa, he is naturally always joyful. He does not lament for any material loss or gain because he is full in service to the Lord. He has no desire for material enjoyment because he knows that every living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord and therefore eternally a servant. He does not see, in the material world, someone as higher and someone as lower; *higher and lower positions are ephemeral, and a devotee has nothing to do with ephemeral appearances or disappearances. For him, stone and gold are of equal value. This is the brahma*-bhūta stage, and this stage is attained very easily..." *Prabhupāda: So this brahma*-bhūta stage is spiritual stage. We want to bring everyone to this spiritual stage. That is the sum and substance. We are not on the material stage. Therefore it is little difficult to understand. Everyone is on the material stage, but we are working on the spiritual stage. But the spirit and matter, we can distinguish. Without the spirit, the body is nothing but lump of matter. The spirit is there, the matter is there, but we are so dull, we do not understand what is that spirit. That is the difficulty of the modern society. This is the most important thing. Without the spirit the body cannot move. They are daily experiencing that without spirit the body is nothing, decomposed matter. But still they are simply licking up that decomposed matter without taking care of the spiritual. This is the most defective position of the modern society. So it is not a Hindu religion or Christian religion. It is a science to understand. Kathy Kerr: If a sufficient number of people could take care of their spirits, could achieve an understanding of the spiritual body and so forth, do you think that that would solve, say for instance... *Prabhupāda: It is not possible that, because, at the present moment the number of educated persons, there are many. Many Ph.D.'s, D.H.C.'s but nobody understands it. You cannot expect a fair number of persons understanding it. It requires little higher brain. But even some percent of the population understands this philosophy, then there will be peace and prosperity. Not that everyone. Just like in my body, not that every part of my body is brain. But if the brain is in order, then other parts of the body will act nicely. The leg is not brain, but if the brain is in order, the leg will move nicely. The difficulty is there is no brain. So without brain, without head, when the body moves it is ghost. So it is ghostly civilization. All ghosts. There is a kind of ghost, perhaps you know, that without head. If a man is chopped of his head, and if he has got attraction, then he becomes a ghost without head. So at the present moment, all these so*-called educated civilized men are ghosts without head. You now this, there is some ghosts without head? Jayādvaita: I hadn't heard about them. *Prabhupāda: No, in India they know. And I have described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Hari-śauri: They're depicted like that quite often in Europe, because they used to have the guillotine chopping the head off. Prabhupāda: A ghost without head, yes, there is a ghost. So at the present moment, without head ghost. A civilization of ghosts, without brain. It is something revolutionary. Something revolutionary, but this is a fact. Kathy Kerr: Are you doing anything to try and contact people, the educated men, to... *Prabhupāda: Yes, many. Many educated. They are coming, trying to understand. But it requires little brain. So*-called educated with dull brain cannot understand. So to make their brain finer to understand, we are prohibiting four things: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. If one refrains from these four prohibited things, then he can develop his brain to understand. And if one indulges in these four things, his brain will never be able to understand. Just like a dog having sexual intercourse on the street, so if I request the dog that "Don't do this, it is not very good," he'll never understand. Kathy Kerr: What purpose does the chanting serve? *Prabhupāda: Cleansing. The brain cleansed so that one can understand. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Cleansing. We have got so many dirty things within ourselves. By this chanting and following these regulative principles, it will be cleansed. Then just like a mirror full of dust, you have to cleanse it. Then you'll see your face very nicely. So this is the process of cleansing the mirror of heart. So when it is cleansed, then you can understand, "Yes, I'm not this body. I am soul. My business is different." That is wanted. Therefore we are encouraging people to come here, chant, dance, and take prasādam. Gradual process. They have come. In the beginning, I had no place to stay even. Now we have got hundreds of big, big palaces. Kathy Kerr: Why is it that you seem to attract a large following of youth? *Prabhupāda: Because my..., it is fact, it is not a bogus thing. It is not some imagination, "By meditation you become God." We do not bluff like that. We give education, scientific education. The books are there. You'll find this Bhagavad*-gītā... Have you read ever? No. Here, how to understand God and myself, my relationship. There is no such thing that "You sit down fifteen minutes and you become God." There is no such bogus thing. It is science. Devotee (1): I think she was asking also why there are so many young people, why so many young are attracted. Prabhupāda: Young, they are receptive, and another side is that in the Western countries, your younger generation, they have seen that their father and grandfather are not happy. Is it not a fact? So they are trying to find out something where they will find happiness. As such, they go to so many swamis and yogis who come from India. But there also they are frustrated. But here they are finding the real substance. That you can ask any one of them, they will explain how they have come. Kathy Kerr: Can you, em, do any of you (indistinct). Jayādvaita: I can show you downstairs in our magazine, there's an article about our program of visiting India. We have very beautiful centers there. India..., it's not that because we're going to India, therefore it's an Indian idea. Science, it's not "Two plus two" is Indian or American. It's everywhere. Kathy Kerr: I've asked everything I've been able to think of. Thank you very much for the interview. Prabhupāda: Very good. You have given prasāda? Jayādvaita: Yes, we have some downstairs. Hari-śauri: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 17, 1976, Toronto Satsvarūpa: Of course, evolutionary theory is that in the beginning, all the different species weren't there. Only simple forms, and then they..., more complex ones came about. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom they came? Dropped from the sky? Satsvarūpa: Some theories. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) has joined us, about fifty friends, Indians, they have left him. Satsvarūpa: [break] I plan to go to Detroit tomorrow. [break].... shall we leave. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tomorrow. We are leaving also tomorrow? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: [break] ...of the garden, they are not clean. They should be clean. Just like in front of our, this temple, the footpath is very clean. Satsvarūpa: There's stones in the garden, washed. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Grass, water it, cleanse. Mandira*-mārjanādau. That is also bhajana. Viśvakarmā: [break] Do you think you'll be able to see the temple either today or tomorrow and give me some ideas on how to utilize the building? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Viśvakarmā: I can arrange it with Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? When you're available? *Prabhupāda: Yes. After ten. (japa) [break].... lights are working in order, unless there is some supervision above this lightning system. If somebody says, "This is going on automatically," is that very sane? Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Light is matter, combination of glass and iron, and it is going on with order without any upper supervision? How these rascals say like that? Because immediately they do not see who is pulling on the wire, "There is no (indistinct)." How poor knowledge they have. And they are passing on scientist. Why you are stopping car if there is no supervision? You can pass on, nobody will see. Why one is afraid of not transgressing? Satsvarūpa: They know the authority is there. Prabhupāda: Rascal, how you think there is no authority? There is no sinful, and there is no..., everything is all right? Go on. Go to hell. Jagadīśa: I remember, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when I was young I was brought up in the Catholic church, and I learned to fear God, and be afraid of God. But then as I went to high school, due to... *Prabhupāda: .... association, everything is bad(?). So degraded condition, there is no good association. Therefore I say that we require a first*-class man section. A first-class.... All third class, fourth class. Even the so-called priests, they are also fourth-class, fifth-class men. Indulging in homosex. Satsvarūpa: This priest who joined us, who's now your man, he said that although he was a priest, he smoked three packs of cigarettes a day and drank all kind of wine. He began to drink wine, he said, because in their mass, in their ceremony, the priest drinks wine. And then then he became addicted. Prabhupāda: These rascals are priests. And they'll protect religion. *Hari-śauri: We used to have a Reverend who was in charge of our local church when I was a child. And when we used to go on outings, sometimes they used to organize outings for children to the seaside and everything, and they would stop at a public house and they would give refreshments. So all the children would get lemonade, like that, and the grown*-ups would go and drink some beer or something. So the... Prabhupāda: Their father, mother drinking, and the child is given some soft drinking. And learning how to drink when he'll grow up. Hari-śauri: This vicar, he used to sit, and he used to sip small glass of clear liquid. So everyone thought he was drinking water, but then once they checked, and it was pure vodka. *Prabhupāda: While speaking lie "I was drinking water." (japa) (break*-converses in Hindi) Indian man: Prabhupāda, I'm trying to get one radio station you know, so far the, so that we make a Hare Kṛṣṇa program. So the radio is the big media for... Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Devotee priest (Bhakta Gene): I'm told that... Prabhupāda: Oh, (laughs) how are you? Bhakta Gene: Very fine, very fine. I'm told that you met with Thomas Merton some years ago. Is this correct? Prabhupāda: The French? Bhakta Gene: No, the Cistertian monk from Kentucky. Prabhupāda: I do not know. *Bhakta Gene: You didn't meet with him? He was supposedly the most prominent mystical writer within the Catholic Church in the past one hundred years. His writings gained tremendous prominence in the past..., oh, the past twenty*-five years. Prabhupāda: Prominence amongst whom? *Bhakta Gene: Uh, amongst Christians. And non*-Christians as well. He made a trip to the East. He had an accident in the East and was electrocuted. Oh, this is some ten years ago now. *Jayādvaita: He wrote that original introduction for your first Bhagavad*-gītā published by Macmillan. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhakta Gene: Well, this raises a question in my mind, Your Grace. Within Christianity there has been a history of mysticism from 100 A.D. to the present. Now there have been some prominent mystics, a few prominent mystics, and a great many not so prominent. Now how do you classify these men, these Christian mystics, Protestant as well as Catholic? Prabhupāda: It is some yogic mysticism. It has nothing to do with spiritual life. They want to see some miracles, generally, ordinary public. So this mystic power, show some miracles and make them astonished. That's all. It has nothing to do with spiritual life. Bhakta Gene: Perhaps you misunderstood me. I was referring to truly devotional mystics, such as St. John of the Cross, St. Francis of Assisi. Prabhupāda: If there is devotional service, where is the need of mysticism? There is no need. God is my master, I am His servant. Where there is necessity of this nonsense mysticism? Bhakta Gene: I think that the term mysticism, so many people have been playing with, particularly here in the United States. *Prabhupāda: So many people, we have nothing to do with so many people. If you are actually servant of God, so God is there, you are servant. So your transaction is there. Just to carry out the orders of God. That's all. Why do you want mysticism? Just to show some jugglery to the people? You serve God. That's all. And it is very simple thing, what God orders. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Where is the question of mysticism? There is no question of mysticism. God says "Just always think of Me. Offer your obeisances and worship Me." That's all. Where is the need of mysticism? It is all jugglery. Indian man: I tell you, I think there's a wrong conception. Prabhupāda: You think in your way. There is no meaning in your thinking unless you come to the line. Indian man: No, sir. There's a wrong conception, that mysticism. They say it comes with the spiritual advancement. I think that's what he's getting at. *Prabhupāda: The problem is that we are suffering in this material world life after life, and our aim is how to again go back to home, back to Godhead. That they do not know. They are showing some mysticism. Stop death. Then I shall see your mysticism. What is this nonsense mysticism? Can you stop death? Is it possible? Then what is the meaning of this mysticism? All bogus. My problem is that I am accepting one body and suffering, because as soon as I get this material body, I have to suffer. Then I am creating another body. I die. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. And again begins another chapter. In this way, from this grass life to the demigods, I am simply changing body and dying and taking birth. This is my problem. So what mysticism will do? But that they do not know, what is the problem. That is clearly stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. This is your problem. You are repeatedly taking birth and dying, and so long you are living there are so many troubles. Jarā-vyādhi. Especially old age and disease. So this is the problem. What mysticism will help you? Will the mysticism stop your birth, death, old age and disease? Then that is mysticism. Otherwise, what is the use of such nonsense things. [break] ...misleading from the real path. They do not know what is the aim of life, what is the problem of life. They create some mysticism, and some rascal people are after them. That's all. "Here is mystic." Indian: How important is the association with the devotees? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ [SB 3.25.25]. Therefore sādhu-saṅga wanted. Association of devotees. That is wanted. Then our life will be successful. Not mysticism. Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think Bhakta Gene wants to know if you recognize that there are any great devotees in that Christian tradition. Do we recognize that any of those Christian saints were great devotees? Did they develop love of God? Or what's the comparison? Prabhupāda: I do not know, I have not studied Christianity. But if anyone has developed love, that is perfection. So there is not question of my knowing or not knowing. If actually one has developed love for God, he's perfect. That's all. Bhakta Gene: This is what prompted me to ask my first question, Your Grace. What has brought me here has been my search... Prabhupāda: No, it is God's desire that you are sincere, you have come. Now utilize the association and the opportunity, your life will be successful. We have got enough books to convince you about this science. So you read it. Bhakta Gene: I am convinced. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why one should be after mysticism? What is the benefit? Bhakta Gene: It was the mystics that brought me here. This was the thing. It was their love of God... Prabhupāda: Where is mystic? We don't show any mystic. Bhakta Gene: No. The term, we're having trouble with the term. The term "mystic" was applied to transcendentalists within the church to show a difference between them and the traditionalists. The traditionalists were those who paid attention to the script. Prabhupāda: What do you mean by traditionalist? Bhakta Gene: The traditionalists are strictly the old Roman Catholic traditionalists. Prabhupāda: No, apart from Roman or, what do you mean by traditionalist? Bhakta Gene: Those who abided by tradition rather than the scriptures. Prabhupāda: Oh, scripture, they have no respect for scripture? Bhakta Gene: Well, they had respect for scriptures, but they had more respect for tradition. Ritualistic laws. Prabhupāda: What is the tradition? Satsvarūpa: The way the church would apply the ritual rather than actually trying to... *Prabhupāda: But that is required. That is required. Just like we are worshiping the Deity. This is traditional. From time immemorial. So how you can reject? This is the way. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. That is bhakti way. Bhakta Gene: But so much of the tradition within the Roman Church has no reference to any scripture. *Prabhupāda: No, no, that has not been properly done. Otherwise, just like here, we have got temple, regulative principle. If it is done properly, the result will be there. If it is improperly done, then there is no result. How these boys, European, American, they never knew what is Kṛṣṇa. But on account of this following the traditionalism, they are becoming devotees. It is practical, you can see. Simply theoretical knowledge will not do. Must be practical. That is traditionalism. Tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt. That is the Nectar of Instruction. Tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. This is traditional. One has to follow the traditional rules and regulations. Utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt [Upadeśāmṛta 3]. First of all one must be enthusiastic: "I shall become devotee." Then, utsāhān dhairyāt, with patience. Then niścayāt, with conviction: "Yes, I am following the rules and it will be successful." And tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. You have to follow the traditional rules and regulations. Sato vṛtteḥ, you must be honest. Sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. And these things in the association of devotees. Ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati. Then your bhakti, devotional life, will be successful. Satsvarūpa: Some of these Christian mystics would say it's more important to directly contact God within your own heart. These traditions are not as important. *Prabhupāda: God is there already. Where is the contact? God is there already. It is no question of contacting. He is already, but you are blind, you cannot see. Therefore if you follow the rules and regulations, then you'll see. You'll see. Otherwise we'll not see. God is there. God is everywhere. God is here. Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. You have no eyes to see. Bhakta Gene: These are almost the very words that Francis of Assisi stated. Prabhupāda: Yes. This question was raised in Melbourne. And that is perfectional. He was embracing tree. So I told, "This is perfection." Perfection means he'll see everywhere God and everything in God. That is perfection. Hari-śauri: I think we should go back now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. Mayā. You just explain this verse. You understand this? Jayādvaita: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says that "Everything is resting in Me. I am present all over the universe, impersonally. I can't be seen. Everything is resting on Me. At the same time, I'm outside of everything. I'm independent." He maintains His personality. Prabhupāda: Na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ. "I'm not there." So this is conception of God. Nothing can exist without God. But that does not mean everything is God. We have to understand this philosophy. Indian man: I just want to ask..., Bhaktisiddhānta Prabhu, Bhaktisiddhānta your spiritual master. How you spent the days, your young age, with Bhaktisiddhānta? Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian man: Yes. Bhaktisiddhānta, your spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Young age? I was not with him. I was householder. But I used to meet with him. I was following his instructions. [break] ...valley? (indistinct) valley? No. Viśvakarmā: That's another section, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That verse, can anyone remember? Yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ? Huh? Indian man: Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the explanation? Indian man: Where Lord Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna are there, there the victory. Prabhupāda: Ah. Then all mystic power is there. That means where there is Kṛṣṇa and His pure devotee, the whole mystic power is there. Tatra śrīḥ? Jayādvaita: Vijayo bhūtiḥ. Prabhupāda: Ah. Tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtiḥ. Devotee, he hasn't got to try separately for all these things. It will come automatically. That is mysticism. (laughter) (converses in Hindi) (end) *Room Conversation-*-June 17, 1976, Toronto Hari-śauri: The thing that came up when we were into doing the political thing a little bit, they were asking..., one of the major issues always in political battles is how would you control inflation, how would you solve the inflation problem? Prabhupāda: Inflation problem, I suggested, make gold coins as medium of exchange. Hari-śauri: That means that there'll be the same..., it'll have the same value all over the world. *Prabhupāda: No question of value. Money has to be paid by real money*-gold, silver. No paper. Hari-śauri: But whether it's gold or paper, isn't it all just representative of... Prabhupāda: No, medium of exchange. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: If I have to pay you, if you don't accept paper, then I'll have to give you gold or silver, and international exchange is going on. Then there is no inflation, because you'll not accept paper, so what is the use of printing notes? They are printing notes without any gold reserve. Hari-śauri: Nothing. It's just imaginary wealth. Prabhupāda: That's it. Bank will give you loan, they are eager to give you loan, and you haven't got to pay anything in gold and silver. One check, that's all. And with that check you can purchase lots of commodities and hoard it, and price will be increased. If I have to pay gold for (indistinct), then I have limited source. The price will not increase. This is the only way. Introduce gold only, gold and silver. In the British period in our childhood there was practically no notes. Silver. If I have to take payment from you, one thousand rupees, you will give me so much silver. For counting, counting, I have to see whether it is.... There were some imitation, counterfeit. So each coin you have to see, they were saying like that, that, "For thousand rupees I have to occupy so much space." Hari-śauri: And weighed so much. Prabhupāda: Yes, and weight was so much. (pause) The time was not so bad. If you take some cash, thousand, two thousand rupees with you, you can safely walk on the street. Now if somebody knows that he has got thousand rupees cash with him, maybe he will be killed. The bank, they are so much afraid, they keep police in bank, police guard, always. Hari-śauri: They have so much security systems and TV cameras. [break] Prabhupāda: ...not working? Hari-śauri: Is there any kind of a pain killer or anything? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: Nothing we can get from India or anything like that? Prabhupāda: No, don't worry. It will be.... [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They had no reason to object to something, but they just do it out of their nasty nature. Anyway, so I had the forms filled out, everything. Then we went to a lawyer, we got it notarized, everything in order. And the man this morning said he would give us the passport the same day. Then this other man, higher up, bigger dog, I went to see him, and he said, "No, no, it will take four days." So I said "Why not do it in three days? We can get it Monday." We were very nice, myself and Mr. Battra, Subhavilas went. He's also Punjabi. They were speaking Punjabi. He was, Mr. Battra was even begging him, unnecessary things. And then finally he said "Come back Monday morning," after sitting there for two hours, for no reason. Jagadīśa: With no yes or no? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But no today. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda needs a new passport with all the pages filled out. I wanted to get it in Fiji, but the embassy was on the other side of the island. So we'll try again Monday morning. I told him though that we've given our lives to preach the dharma of Bhārata-varṣa, and sometimes we become*-I told him in a nice way, not in an angry way-sometimes we become very disenchanted and disenheartened when we see that Indians like yourself, they present unnecessary obstacles to our preaching mission. *Prabhupāda: That is sufficient insult. (laughter) That enraged him. You said Indian*-givers. That offended him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, that was after he said no. Then he changed his mind a little bit, but I don't know. He said come back Monday morning then. I was thinking maybe he wanted to be bribed or something. Maybe Mr. Battra knows. Prabhupāda: Indian government is nasty, there is no doubt. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Unnecessarily. He said "I have to fill out four pages." Four pages of the passport, that takes four days? Prabhupāda: Everyone in government service, at least it is to be supposed they are all nasty men. Here also, why not? The other day the custom officer, unnecessary. Unnecessarily. He is opening the snuff box, this box, that box. Unnecessarily. Not a gentleman. It is stated there, "snuff," and he is bringing knife to open. Jagadīśa: Harassment. *Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Rājanyaiḥ, dasyu*-dharma. Simply wanting some bribe. They are in power. And that will increase. It will be impossible to deal with. Now it is already. In India, any work you want to be done by government, unless you bribe.... In Africa also. The situation is becoming very dangerous. That Mullik's Thakur, where he...? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Calcutta, yes. Prabhupāda: The state is in the management of official trustee. And this trustee in charge of the trust board men, they give us so much trouble and exploit the position for his personal profit. I have seen. Horrible. For instance, I can give you, if in some property there is some repair, it will cost you, say, one hundred rupees. And they'll give it to a contractor, and the contractor will present a bill, twelve hundred rupees. And he'll pass. And the contractor will be given, say, two hundred rupees, and balance he'll take. I have seen. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Stealing from the trust. *Prabhupāda: In this way he's.... The money's in his hand. If you want money for expenditure, so if I press you, you have need of money, so you do everything, give some back, get the money. You are in urgent need. Everywhere. All, whole world they have become dishonest. Even the high*-court judges, magistrate, they are getting bribe. Hari-śauri: It's an extremely difficult situation Prabhupāda: Extremely. They've lost their religious sentiment, religious consciousness. They're just like rude, crude. There was one chief minister in Punjab, he got a big business, big man, "Mr. such and such, I'm sending such and such man. Give him ten thousand rupees without waiting for his reply." "So what for?" "Why you are asking? Give him ten thousand rupees." And the man goes, and he has to pay; otherwise he knows that "This minister will harass me in so many ways later on." *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are called public servants, the so*-called government officials. Prabhupāda: Even your country, there are so many bogus institutes. There was one Mr. Bogart. I used to call him Bogus. Bogart is a title? Jagadīśa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: His business is he has got some institute in the United Nations building, and he has got some office also. That means some poor country, poor, "Give me, give me charity," propaganda. And he will officially present some application to the Ford Foundation, and the trustees will give him money. There is no poverty*-stricken application, but through this institution.... And there is clique, between the.... They are always.... That trustee came, that Desai? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In South Africa? Prabhupāda: In Durban? Yes. They were taking money. Somebody told me. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His grandfather left two hundred thousand dollars to be given to charity in his last will and testament, and they're scheming how to keep the money. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Jagadīśa: Is it because they are killing the cows that this is happening, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: So many things. In India there is no.... At least gentlemen, they do not eat meat. But the thing is that when there is fire, so everyone will suffer. If there is fire in this building, either you are sinful or not sinful, the effects will be shared by you. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (showing Prabhupāda newspaper) There was one newspaper at the Indian Embassy printed in Canada, it's called The Indian Calling. On the back page they have one supplement they took from Back to Godhead magazine. Prabhupāda: It is ours? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is printed by the Indian community, one man, Anand Singh, and he included part of an article from the Back to Godhead magazine. There's one article in here also, the front page is a whole.... There's a racket they had going, these people, this man. He went to India and he found one widow, and he said, "I am a personal friend of the Prime Minister of Canada. Give me money, I'll take you to Canada. You can come. I'll make sure you get immigration status." So she came with him to Canada, and then he started blackmailing her, "Give me this much money every day, otherwise I'll reveal that you're an illegal immigrant, and you'll be in trouble with the government." And eventually it became such a burden that he simply killed her, cut her into three pieces and killed her. Then they found parts of different bodies like this, and they finally found the man. Prabhupāda: The woman was killed? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, this happened in Toronto. Wretched world. (long pause) [break] He writes what appears to be a nice editorial, "Weak Western Educational System"-it's on the second page*-in which he brings out how the Indians have taken the worst from the West, namely it's educational system. Prabhupāda: It is my version? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, but I think he has gotten this from you, the idea of Vedic education. You're the only person preaching this in the world, practically. He's certainly read some of your books, Prabhupāda. [break] Viśvakarmā: He said, "We heard that your spiritual master's coming to town. We'd like to put part of one of the articles from BTG in our paper." Did he put in any advertisement? Oh, I'm surprised. He said, "I'd also like to put an advertisement in the paper." Then he asked, he said he wanted to charge us money for the advertisement. So I told him, I said, "You're from India. You should want to do this for free." He wouldn't do it. Hari-śauri: They use part of your article to advertise Indian culture. This "Could Plato have gotten his ideas from ancient Indian Vedas?" And at the same time they won't even give a free advertisement when you, the speaker of the article, is here in person. Prabhupāda: Anyway, you have refused to pay. Viśvakarmā: Yes, I refused. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Viśvakarmā: I said "If you want to do it for free, then we'll be happy to put it in." I said, "We are spending two hundred dollars every Sunday to give prasādam to these people. Why do you want to charge us so that we can advertise for them to come?" Prabhupāda: So this newspaper wants to see me? *Viśvakarmā: He's..., they are coming Śrīla Prabhupāda, at six*-thirty. Prabhupāda: This newspaper? *Viśvakarmā: Oh, not this one, no. The Toronto Star. It's the main paper in Canada, and they'll be here at six*-thirty. Hari-śauri: There's a big, big advertisement here for Swami Vishnu Devananda. Jagadīśa: He's a... Hari-śauri: From the Shivananda Yoga Vedanta Center. (laughs) He's going to lecture on the five basic aspects of yoga. Admission three dollars. [break] Viśvakarmā: We're getting quite a few calls. Within the last two months four Indian people have come to me requesting that they can get married in the temple. I told them not... Prabhupāda: No, we are not marriage company. We get married our students if there is necessity, but we don't.... Marriage means they will arrange their marriage in our temple. Viśvakarmā: They arrange the marriage on their own; they have the ceremony here. And they pay some fee. Jagadīśa: They don't even know..., they don't even know that the Deity is nondifferent from Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Similar proposal was there in Montreal. Then it will become a business. They are not devotees. They have no good place to perform the marriage, they come here. Jagadīśa: The rest of the year they don't come. Prabhupāda: You have got a separate place for allowing them? Viśvakarmā: Yes, we have this other room adjacent to the temple room, which is very large. Prabhupāda: So that can be used by them. Not the big hall. Viśvakarmā: Not the temple room, but use this other one. The idea being that they will start to relate to the temple. Prabhupāda: Huh? Viśvakarmā: Most of the time they're reluctant to come, but if they think there is some facility, then they'll come anyway, for that. Then they can see the Deities. And they will pay for catering. We will serve them prasāda, and they will give the money for the prasāda. In that way they can get prasāda from the Deity. Prabhupāda: Oh, prasāda we shall arrange. And they will pay for that. Viśvakarmā: Yes, just like the Christians. They have that kind of thing when they have a banquet. Prabhupāda: That can be accepted. Viśvakarmā: The type of ceremonies, they want some sort of... Jagadīśa: Havana. Viśvakarmā: What's that? Jagadīśa: Havana, fire. Viśvakarmā: Yes, they want fire sacrifice. Can we give them some other ceremony to satisfy them? Prabhupāda: Other ceremony? Why? Viśvakarmā: Well, sometimes the Indians come with their children, and they want us to bless the children, so we give them caraṇāmṛta and... Prabhupāda: That's nice. Viśvakarmā: ...and hold the child and then they give some dakṣiṇā, five dollars or ten dollars. *Prabhupāda: No, that we can do. That is first*-class.(?) Give caraṇāmṛta and they have given some donation, that's nice. Viśvakarmā: We can give them a lecture on householder life? Have them sit and give them a lecture and then give them caraṇāmṛta? Prabhupāda: Who will hear your lecture? Viśvakarmā: The, all the people that come for this ceremony. Prabhupāda: They can hold kīrtana. That will be nice, if they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jagadīśa: They want the fire. They want the fire. They want to have a priest to build, to make a fire ceremony for their wedding. Many Indians ask this. Prabhupāda: So on the whole, what they are going to pay? Viśvakarmā: About five hundred dollars. Jagadīśa: Five hundred dollars! Viśvakarmā: Oh, yes. I mean, I had some Indian men that gave three hundred dollars worth of bhoga just for your coming. Four men came with seventy pounds of butter, fifty pounds of sugar, so many preparation, ah, bhoga for offering. So I think they'll pay five hundred dollars. That's for catering. We give the prasāda, we give the hall for the evening. They can come, and the devotees will be there. We distribute prasāda to them, have kīrtana. Prabhupāda: If kīrtana, prasāda distribution is there, you can allow. That is our main program. Viśvakarmā: But they won't pay that much. They have to pay at least a thousand. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Then give them prasāda, and if they chant, then it is all right. Hari-śauri: They'll pay that easily for a wedding. It's a big thing for Indians. Even in the West people.... Prabhupāda: Whatever they do, but prasāda will be distributed by us, and they must chant for half an hour. (laughter) Then we accept. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Viśvakarmā: How should I satisfy them for the desire for a fire, as Jagadīśa was saying? Prabhupāda: They can have their own fire. What is that? They'll chant some Vedic mantra, that's all right. But they must chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Jagadīśa: We can allow them to have a fire here? Prabhupāda: Where is the wrong? If it is Vedic mantra, then there is no... Viśvakarmā: Yes, then they will feel that the temple is like a place where they can come, even though if it's only for once a year. They will still give the lakṣmī, a donation. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will consider it is their own interest. Viśvakarmā: 'Cause all the Christians have their churches, and we are the only church for them. The other... Prabhupāda: No, no. Then you can (can't(?)) allow it. Viśvakarmā: There are four temples in Toronto of other Indian groups. But they are political and social. The people really don't like them. And they don't have Deities like we have. Prabhupāda: That is a farce. That is not temple. In London also there are Hindu Center, this, that. All nonsense. Now they are installing Deity. But it is not taken care of properly. Viśvakarmā: They invited me, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to visit one of their Sunday services, and I went, and they had a fire, an installation of the Deities. They had one brāhmaṇa, and they had a small Deity of Viṣṇu, and he had the fire sacrifice in four minutes, and then they installed the Deity on the altar. That was it. Prabhupāda: They, what do they know? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The press reporter's here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Prabhupāda: ...accept London. Haṁsadūta, when he was GBC.... He's still GBC? Jagadīśa: Haṁsadūta? Prabhupāda: That part? No. Jagadīśa: No, Jayatīrtha is. Prabhupāda: So there was some complaint against him. Jagadīśa: Against Mādhavānanda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. The complaint is that he spent money on his own account lavishly. Jagadīśa: Hmm. I don't know about that. Prabhupāda: Some of the life members complained. I received several complaints. The other day I asked, "You collected some money for constructing temple, so where is that money?" So he gave explanation. So thirty, fifty thousand pounds were collected by him. Jagadīśa: From Ambarīṣa? Hari-śauri: No, this was in England. Jagadīśa: Oh, in England, oh. Prabhupāda: But there is only balance two thousand five hundred. Hari-śauri: Yes, just two or three thousand. Prabhupāda: All the money, he said, spent. Now they are asking for loan for purchasing one house. This money was collected for temple construction.... We were awaiting opportunity. In the meantime, money spent. Jagadīśa: Have there been any complaints from Detroit? Have there been any similar complaints from Detroit? Prabhupāda: In Detroit I have received complaint, that.... Many.... Govardhana was popular president. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Popular. Everyone liked him. Jagadīśa: Yes, very gentle soul. Prabhupāda: Ah. So this is complaint I received. Jagadīśa: They don't like Mādhavānanda? Prabhupāda: Some of them say. Hari-śauri: He's forceful. He's quite a forceful person. Prabhupāda: What is this forceful? Hari-śauri: Well, if someone is very active, then it's only natural that some people will not be very keen on him, because he likes to get things done. Those that are a little slow, sometimes they complain. Maybe just that he's only been there a month or so. He's only been there not too long, so it's natural that it will take some time for the devotees to adapt to doing the things according to his direction rather than the way that they've been used to doing it. There's always some transition. Prabhupāda: You can know more about him from Haṁsadūta. As well Bhagavān. Jagadīśa: Bhagavān recommended him. He had been in Paris before coming to America. But his complaint was that he didn't speak French, so he didn't like to stay in France. Then he came to America, and he was distributing books with Tripurāri Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Oh, he is very intelligent, there is no doubt, intelligent, and for preaching work he is good. But for becoming the manager in London, there were.... What is that boy in Bombay? Hari-śauri: Oh, Prabhaviṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Prabhaviṣṇu. So, who would become the president, there was war. (laughter) Haṁsadūta wanted Prabhaviṣṇu, and Mādhavānanda wanted that he would become president. In this way, there was great faction. So the management was being done nicely. He was attracting Indians, faithful, they were following. But there were several complaints that he spent very lavishly on his personal account. Purchasing (indistinct). Jagadīśa: What do you think we should do, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Hmm? No, I do not wish to interfere. You manage now. I want to see that you are managing without my interference. Now practically I want to concentrate more, or absolutely I want to do that. But sometimes this mismanagement gives me too much anxiety. I do not wish to see that somehow or other we have built up a nice institution, on account of lack of management it may be hampered. That is my only anxiety. Now what is the position of the Gurukula in Texas? Our Gurukula, I have repeatedly said that we want simply to know English nicely-English is international language*-and Sanskrit just to read and understand our literature. But we don't find any progress in that way. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you say that we don't find any progress, do you mean just on account of Pradyumna's testimony? Or do you see beyond that, also, that there's no progress. Prabhupāda: No. Pradyumna, of course, personally saw. But when I was in Dallas I could not find any good progress. Jagadīśa: How do you judge that progress? Prabhupāda: By the chanting of the Sanskrit verses. Not all of them could do it very nicely. It is only practice, and.... Apart from Pradyumna. So his complaint is that he cannot write even 1, 2, 3, 4, up to ten. Jagadīśa: I know we have some good people. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jagadīśa: We have some good, qualified people, and I'm organizing... Prabhupāda: I saw some machine purchased, some, for publishing some... Jagadīśa: Printing machine. Prabhupāda: Printing. Why this is going on? Jagadīśa: Those were purchased before I got involved. Prabhupāda: That means money was spent unnecessarily, without any tangible result. Now Dayānanda left. He was there.... Without any consideration, he left. So what to do with all these things? Jagadīśa: I think I have it under control. I have plans... *Prabhupāda: You see these two things especially, that they.... English is their mother tongue, mother language. They can easily become English scholar very easily. And Sanskrit language is no difficulty. Read and write, read and write, then he will learn. Our education in Sanskrit was in college. Of course, I was the best student in my class of Sanskrit. I was standing first. But we are not like the so*-called Sanskrit scholars. But for our purpose we can read and write, that's all. Similarly, we don't want any very learned scholars, Sanskrit grammarian to manufacture jugglery of words, meanings. No, we don't want that. Simply we can conduct our business, that's all. Just like Marwaris, they, their education is up to their business understanding, that's all. They don't want to be scholars or technologists. You won't find in big, big Marwari family they have become a doctor, engineer or technologist, no. But in business dealings they are first class. (laughs) That they train. I had one Marwari friend in Calcutta. He was a very rich businessman and has got several (indistinct). So sometimes I went to his house. I saw that he had engaged a Sanskrit paṇḍita and an English teacher. That's all. So I asked him, "You don't send your children to school?" "No, no, no, no. I..." If we require some technologist, we can purchase. You pay some money; so many technologists you will get, M.A., Ph.D., D.H.C., C.H.C. All right, take payment and do business (indistinct). They employ very, very, very large salary. But on the head, management, their own sons, grandsons. Jagadīśa: You've explained this to me a number of times, and I think I'm beginning to understand. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge is spiritual knowledge. Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Now, of course, social conditions have changed. There are so many factories, and they require technical knowledge. But we are not going to the factories. That is sure and certain. Neither we are going to start any factory. That is not our business. Our factory at most, cut cut, hut hut, that's all. We don't want to start factory or Ford factory and make a hell out of life, the hell. Hari-śauri: I used to work in a steel works. It's worse than hell. Prabhupāda: It is more than hell. There is no life. I have been in Tata steel iron factory. I saw it is a hell. One melting pot just like a skyscraper building. You have seen? Hari-śauri: I used to work on them, same thing. I was working where they pour the metal into ingots, into casings, and then when it solidifies they take a chunk of iron out, it's still white hot, and then they put it in ovens. And then after a while, when they need them, they take them out with big cranes and they put them on a series of rollers, and then it goes through a mill, what they call a mill. It's like a big mangling machine, and it crushes the steel ingot into plates, big plates. Then it goes along and it's cut and sent out. It cools down on big banks and it's sent out. So my job was, I was doing maintenance fitting on all those machines. On the rollers and on the cranes and on the big mills, like that. It was terrible. We used to work from two o'clock in the afternoon until ten o'clock at night, one shift, then from ten until six, and then from six until two. Prabhupāda: Eight hours. Without any recreation? Hari-śauri: Well, one break, for lunch. It was just indescribable. There's so much heat and fumes, and always covered in oil and grease, crawling around on your hands and knees to fix some machine. Jagadīśa: All for the advantage of some wealthy man. Prabhupāda: And after this hard labor, his only recreation is wine. Did you drink? Hari-śauri: (laughs) Yes, we used to go straight from the steel works to the pub, public house. Jagadīśa: I also worked in a factory for a while. Same thing. And people were always getting hurt. Prabhupāda: You are not meant for that. (laughs) Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: I thought you joined from college? Jagadīśa: Yes, but during the summer I had a job in a factory. Prabhupāda: Oh, to get some money. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This girl Elizabeth paid so much money; it is due to Govardhana. Jagadīśa: Due to? Prabhupāda: Govardhana. Jagadīśa: Yes, Ambarīṣa also. Ambarīṣa also has given money due to Govardhana. He's a very gentle soul. Prabhupāda: His background is good service. Therefore I'm asking why he should be changed? Hari-śauri: But if he's not very fixed up, then... Prabhupāda: That can be... Jagadīśa: One thing, if I had not been tied up in Dallas with Gurukula, I could have spent more time in Detroit, and I think that would have helped the situation. Because he was alone, working alone... Prabhupāda: Now one thing is, that he has given service for the benefit of the society. Very tangible service. He can be in charge of book distribution. Jagadīśa: Mādhavānanda. *Hari-śauri: Yes, that would be good, if they were co*-managers or something like that. Jagadīśa: Govardhana president? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? You should recognize his service. He induced persons to do some.... That you cannot neglect. [break] Paper men coming? Hari-śauri: Yes, Jayādvaita's going to talk to them a little first, give them prasāda, just explain the basics of the movement so that they, you know, they may be a little favorable. Prabhupāda: ...they'll understand Hari-śauri: Otherwise, if they just come and... Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to understand that our movement is spiritual movement, and they do not understand what is spiritual, the whole world. That is the defect. But still we are going on. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise, nobody understands what is the aim or what is the platform. (Some kids yell "Hare Kṛṣṇa" in disrespectful tones outside the room. Prabhupāda and devotees laugh) Hari-śauri: It's amazing when you think how we're expanding all the time. It's really amazing. Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Therefore they take us as one of these Guruji and Babaji, like this, like that. But when they read our books, higher class, they understand the seriousness of it. They admit that this is India's original, traditional knowledge. Higher, higher circle, they don't want any imitation. Hari-śauri: No, someone with a little intelligence, he's not befooled by... *Prabhupāda: No. During British period, high British officers, big, big managers, they liked Indians with original culture. They did not like any Indian with European imitation*-pants, coats. They didn't like these imitations. My Godbrother, that German, Sadānanda.... You have heard his name or you have seen him? Jagadīśa: No. Prabhupāda: When he came to India, he was my intimate friend. So he was telling me that "In our country, when some Indian student comes, especially while returning home after their education, they stop for some time in Germany, we used to inquire from him how much he is aware of his Indian original culture." Because they have got very good respect. All over the world they have got. Even Russia. They have got good respect for Indian culture. They have liked our books only on account of the..., because the Sanskrit verses are there. They took it, "Oh, it is original." Scholarly people like our book on that account, because we explain original Sanskrit verse. That they have got very good regard, that there is knowledge. They're impressed. And Britishers made propaganda only that India had no culture, almost uncivilized: They push women forcibly in the fire after the death of her husband, and in the temple, the priests, they make all nonsense with women, and so on. This was their.... Just to prove that "India was uncivilized, and we are making them civilized. By our compassion for the uncivilized persons, we are occupying." Hari-śauri: They used to call that the "white man's burden." Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So these English people, they were very expert in making propaganda. They killed Hitler by propaganda. I don't think Hitler was so bad man. What do you think? You are Englishman. (laughter) Hari-śauri: It's getting.... (laughs) Just from hearing you speak in the last few months I can understand that the whole history that I was ever presented in school is completely warped around to the way that the English saw it, especially the last two centuries, when the British empire was on the move. It's completely... Prabhupāda: But actually, the war was between Germany and England. Others joined, some interest or something. Actually, the war was to be fought between England and Germany. Jagadīśa: There's one devotee who joined in Toronto, Frenchman, and he was in France at the time of the war. He's an older man. And he told me also.... His father was French, but he was sympathetic to the Nazis, and that it was actually Maxmillian or one of the Frenchmen who sided with the British, but the majority of the French people didn't mind the German occupation. It was due to one of the political factions siding with the British that there was a French underground and... *Prabhupāda: France, they are always enemy of Englishmen. There is is old history*-Hundred Years' War, Seven Years' War. Napoleon also wanted to cut down the Britishers. France is dead enemy of England, and there is always competition. Hari-śauri: Even just with De Gaulle also. Prabhupāda: France is not friendly to India, uh, England. Hari-śauri: England has always been inimical with the rest of Europe. With Germany, France, Spain, everyone. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they thought, "This is a third*-class nation, a small island, fishermen, and they have wealthy (indistinct)?" That is natural. Whole world. In our childhood, we used to see map, almost whole world red-red means British. (laughter) They said that there was no sunset in the British Empire. Jagadīśa: This Frenchman also says that he... Prabhupāda: German people still hate England. They do not like to speak in English; *that I have seen. In the bank they know English, but they won't speak it. English everyone knows. The Kaiser was against. They said that Kaiser is the grandson of Queen Victoria, from daughter's side. And King George from the son's side*-Edward's seventh son. They were cousin brothers. So this Kaiser, when he was young boy, went to paternal uncle's house, when he was a young boy. So there was some playing, cut with a knife. So royal family, so many doctors came. So the boy was saying, "Why you are trying to cure it? Let the English blood go away." So from the childhood he was so inimical, that "I have got some English blood in my body, my mother is English, father German, so let the English blood go away." I do not know if that is fact, I heard it. (laughs) Maybe. It is joking also and serious. In our childhood in school, a book was there, "England's Work in India." One Mr. M. Ghosh, he wrote this book just to flatter the Englishmen. This, that "white man's burden." And it was the impression in those days: just to become like Englishmen, that is civilization. The Parsees in Bombay, they were the first-class flatterer, imitation, how to become like English lords, barons. This Tata factory was started by such ambition. They wanted to be English baron, lord, industrialist. In Calcutta also. Where our temple is, that is called saheb quarter. In our childhood we used to say saheb quarter. Saheb quarter means European neighborhood. They say our temple is saheb mandira in Māyāpura. And in Vṛndāvana aṇgrejī mandira. The same impression. To become saheb, that was great prestigious. Yes. Hari-śauri: They actually had no resources whatsoever, the British. They had no resources whatsoever. *Prabhupāda: That was the mission of Hitler, that "These people are shopkeepers' nation, fisherman's nation. How they have become so big? This must be finished." Because their business was being hampered by the Britishers. In India we have seen. German and Japan, very cheap and first*-class goods they will supply. The Britishers would not allow. Hari-śauri: Yes, at that time, anything that was made in England automatically was considered first class. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, any rascal thing. They made a good market. And British Empire means to sell their goods. And they, for that purpose, they became rich. Money was drawn from all parts, especially from India. Everything. Later on, gradually we came to understand. In Lucknow, because I was in medical business, so I saw one Japanese salesman was selling one medicine, one or two items, potassiodide. Do you know? No. Potassium iodide. And another, iodine. He was selling at four rupees, eight annas a pound. But we were accustomed to purchase English potassiodide and iodine, thirteen rupees a pound. That Howard's.... Very famous, Howard's chemicals, like that. They were selling. So I doubted that "How so much cheap this Japanese firm can supply?" And they used to advertise that all these Japanese goods are third class. Yes, "German goods are second class. Our goods, first class." So I inquired from the salesman, "How is it that you are supplying so cheap?" "They're supplying.... The price is the real price." "Now why they charge more?" "They purchase from us and pack and sell." There are many big chemical concerns in Germany. Germans are very good manufacturers, especially of chemicals, iron, machine. Still you find, all this Uher and, what is called, Gundsag? Hari-śauri: Grundig. *Prabhupāda: They're all German. All first*-class machine you'll find. This Mercedes motorcar, they're all German. They don't manufacture third-class thing. Everything they manufacture first class. Still, the Germans suffered so much, but when I was in Germany I saw they are very prosperous. Hari-śauri: Now we have to get them interested in your books. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: Germans. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: I don't think we have any reviews from any big German scholars yet. Prabhupāda: But if they have ordered for their textbook, that order will be... Hari-śauri: East Germany, yes. Prabhupāda: Their order itself will be a testimony. If they order in their own form, "Supply this." Max Mueller was German. So long we are in this material world, this competition, animosity.... Even in the higher planetary system, there is no peaceful condition. Jagadīśa: You feeling headache? Prabhupāda: No, there is some pain. My teeth are now useless. So it is all rotten now. Sometimes it becomes acute. There is no strength in the teeth. Some of them, fifty percent, have already fallen. Therefore I cannot eat. Jagadīśa: I think that a very nutritious diet can be made just from liquids. Prabhupāda: Liquids, yes. Milk is the best food. Children, when there is no teeth, milk is the food. In Western country also, I think old men, they take milk and puffed rice. Is it? Hari-śauri: Yes, soft foods anyway. *Prabhupāda: In India, especially in Bengal, there is a preparation, it is softer than the puffed rice*-khoi, fused rice. That is very good. Light, at the same time soft purgative. That milk mixed with is a very good food for old men. *Hari-śauri: In that newspaper article in the Butler Eagle, that very first article when you just arrived that we saw? They showed that copy in Los Angeles. It mentioned, the reporter there, he quoted you as saying that-you were telling him about milk, how good it was*-and he quoted you as saying that milk is the miracle food for babies and old men. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. No, it may be there are so many other foods, but cent percent of the human society, everyone, has some way or other taken milk. So morally, cow is our mother. How these mothers are being killed? That is the question. Where is morality? Where is...? And they are drawing last drop of the milk. And there is necessity of milk. "After taking whatever money you have got..., take, I shall kill you." What is this? Horrible society. If I take from you whatever you have got in your pocket and then I kill you.... What is this society? Jagadīśa: The only thing that stops them from killing each other is that there are certain laws. Otherwise, I'm sure that the human beings are so barbaric that they would kill each other. Hari-śauri: Actually, they are making adjustments to the law so that they can do that. *Prabhupāda: Yes, in India, in Vṛndāvana, they are killing now for a little money. They are so poverty*-stricken. They have got a clique. Because in Vṛndāvana there are many retired men; they get some money from bank or some saving bank in post office, and they have got clique with this post office man and the bank clerk who has taken money. Bon Mahārāja was attacked. He brought some one lakh rupees, one and a half lakh rupees for some.... He was recognized by the.... As soon, at night.... He was living in the Institute. Attacked, in the presence of police. Police was guarding that others may not come to help. Hari-śauri: The police were helping the thieves? Prabhupāda: Yes. I think the magistrate even was complicated. And when it was complained, the magistrate said, "Better not to take it seriously; it will be your.... I'll give you some guard." Hari-śauri: They'll do anything for money. *Prabhupāda: Now, in the Kali*-yuga, things will degrade so low that if I see I have no money and if you have got some few cents with you, I shall kill you and take it. That day will come. Very dangerous condition is coming forward. Yes, if things go on like this. Just like we saw in Detroit, the whole city is dangerously situated. Therefore nobody purchased that house. Jagadīśa: Eighty percent of the people in the city are black. Prabhupāda: And the white men, they are very much afraid of these black men. They have to be afraid. Jagadīśa: They've taken over the city. *Prabhupāda: Without them, the factories cannot go on. That's all. The white men cannot work so hard. How they...? No gentleman can do that. This kind of work is meant for the fourth*-class, fifth-class men. Therefore they cannot say anything. They require. And they know that their money will be taken away again by supplying them wine. They'll pay, and next moment, the wine merchant will take away. And the government will get huge profit without doing anything. And excise tax. Excise tax, government hasn't got to invest or do anything-simply take the tax. Hari-śauri: Every time they put a tax increase, it's always on beer and cigarettes. Always, every time. And motorcars. Because they know the people are so much addicted that even if they squeeze and squeeze and squeeze, they will still get more, and the people will still pay. Prabhupāda: And addicted people, they, they're after the.... Get money some way or other. Beg, borrow or steal. So these black men especially, they are expert. They are not expert in begging, but borrowing and stealing. Jagadīśa: Is it possible, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will, in the future, turn the tide and gain predominating influence? Change... Prabhupāda: Thing is that if the leaders of the society, they come to their consciousness, that this way the society cannot be peaceful, the way they are now conducting.... If they have brain.... Just like the other day, the Christian priest. He was speaking of disabled men. You were present? I challenge you: what do you mean by disabled man? If one man has lost his arm, can you supply it? Then he stopped. Hari-śauri: He was finished when you told him it was all imaginary. Prabhupāda: Yes, actually. What you can do? Jagadīśa: Other than yourself, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no one in the world has a vision how to save the world. Prabhupāda: Because I honestly think of it. Maybe others are also honest, but they do not know the right way. How they can be honest? Just like this Communist movement. They are favoring the labor class and rejecting the capitalist class altogether. They cannot make any adjustment. Jagadīśa: I've understood that communism is presented by the administrative class when there is a condition of scarcity. When there is opulence, then there is room for personal individual enterprise, but when there is scarcity, that cannot be encouraged, and the common people have to be subjugated. So capitalism and communism are both simply philosophies how to keep the common man satisfied. So it's simply another means of exploitation. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is exploitation, and actually they have done it. Hari-śauri: There is still one class of men living at the expense of another, whether it's Communist.... (end) *Interview with Professors O'Connell, Motilal and Shivaram-*-June 18, 1976, Toronto *Viśvakarmā: ...Professor O'Connell came over to the temple when this, some man came, Ted Patrick, he came to Toronto last year-I think we told you about it*-and he took one of our devotees and deprogrammed her. There was big publicity in the paper for an entire week. So Professor O'Connell came forward and spoke on behalf of our movement, saying that he felt that it was a bona fide system of Vaiṣṇavism. He came to the temple and assisted us. Prabhupāda: O'Connell knows me from a such long time. Yes. We first met in Harvard University. Next he saw me in London, Bhaktivedanta Manor. I think Boston also. Viśvakarmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. He's interested in Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Viśvakarmā: Yes, he wrote his thesis on Caitanya Vaiṣṇavism. Prabhupāda: So he has got his doctorate? Viśvakarmā: Yes. He's bringing one other professor with him. I can't remember his name. He's rather important. He just got a post at Oxford University, has been granted, er, uh, and from Oxford they've asked him to come from Toronto to there. So he'll also be with Professor O'Connell. Satsvarūpa: This is Professor Shivaram from McMaster University. Prabhupāda: I think I saw you quite before this. Thank you. But I.... (devotee or Indian introduces several people, including Mr. and Mrs. Mukherjee) Mrs. Mukherjee, you're also teacher here? Indian lady: No, I am a student. Prabhupāda: Student. Indian man: They're all from Bengal. Prabhupāda: Oh. (converses with woman in Bengali, mentions Gauḍīya Maṭha) So what I was talking just now about this motorcar race? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This breakneck civilization. Just like dog, they're very, very busy. If you watch a dog, sometimes you'll see he's running here, running there, running here, running there. But no credit. Similarly, the modern scientists, they're running, running, running, very busy, but simply patchwork. They have no conclusion. Prabhupāda: I was talking of these cars. The dog is running on legs, and they are running on cars. So, (laughs) actually what is the difference? This is advancement of civilization, that the dog is running for nothing, here and there on legs, and human being is running on nice car. Does it mean there is advance in civilization? If we keep the human being like cats and dogs, without any advancement of knowledge, the cats and dogs, they cannot accept any advanced knowledge. That is not possible. Similarly, if human society is kept in darkness without any advanced knowledge, without any knowledge of the aim of life and without any knowledge what is the meaning of human life, they'll remain as cats and dogs. So as cats and dogs, if they are practiced to run here and there, either on legs or on cars, is that advancement of civilization? Indian man: Swami, there was a news item in the paper last year, some research scholars at Jesuit University performed some experiments, and then they said that Kṛṣṇa consciousness people lose initiative for doing things. They don't fight the battle of life. It takes away the initiative from them. It was published in papers. *Prabhupāda: No, that's not the fact. It is misunderstanding. We are actually struggling for achievement of the highest goal of life. Otherwise, why we are writing so many books? It is for the human beings. And they are being accepted. It is not for the cats and dog. This Bhāgavatam is not meant for the cats and dogs. So, vidyā bhāgavatāvadhi. In the beginning it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vedyaṁ vāstavam atra [SB 1.1.2]. Atra śrīmad-bhāgavataṁ vāstava-vastu-vedyam, what is actual life. So we are struggling to give people what is actual life. Kṛṣṇa comes down to teach us what is actual life. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. When people become cats and dogs, dharmasya glāniḥ. Dharmasya glāniḥ means cats and dogs, because in the cats and dog society there is no question of dharma. They simply jump over and enjoy life. Eat, drink, be merry, enjoy eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That's all. So if human life is also trained up in a polished way, the same principles, then where is the difference between cats and dogs? Dog is thinking, "I am this body, hound, greyhound," and barking, "gow, gow." Similarly, if we remain like that, in the bodily concept of life, that "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," then where is the difference between dog and ourself? The human life is meant for understanding that I am neither Hindu nor Muslim nor American nor Indian. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is beginning of life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. And what is Brahman? Then life begins. The cats and dogs, they cannot think that "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul." That is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā. When Arjuna was thinking in the bodily concept of life, "My family, my brother," and so on, so on, so he declined to fight. So... Viśvakarmā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Professor O'Connell and his wife are here to see you. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa, take this. I saw you last in London, I think. Prof. O'Connell: We did, at your suburban place. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Manor, yes. Prof. O'Connell: We were out for a morning walk. But you got out ahead of us, so Pradyumna and I did not quite catch you, but we followed your trail. Prabhupāda: Pradyumna was there? *Prof. O'Connell: My wife was with me-you probably remember Kathleen O'Connell*-and Professor and Mrs. Fendrick. Mr. Fendrick teaches at Riason University in Toronto. Mary Jane Fendrick. *Prabhupāda: So, if we keep the human society in darkness about the aim of life, that is not civilization. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. I think you understand Sanskrit. Svārtha-gatim, the real self-interest, is to go back to home, back to Godhead. For that purpose, the human life is given by nature as an opportunity in the cycle of birth and death. So if we don't take advantage of this human form of life, when we can realize God and go back to home, back to Godhead, then it is misused. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. They're enamored by the external energy of God, this material energy, and they are thinking that utilizing the material energy, the dog is running on his legs, and if he can run on motorcar, that is advancement. But the business is the running, without any purpose. Indian man: Is it not better to run than to stand still and sleep? Prabhupāda: No, running is not stopped, but running must be with some purpose, aim of life. That they do not know. They are missing the aim of life. Indian man: I meant, Swamiji, rajas is a better manifestation than tamas. *Prabhupāda: No, you have to go above rajas*-tamaḥ. Rajas-tamaḥ means greediness and lust. *If you want peace and happiness, then you have to transcend the platform of rajas*-tamaḥ and come to the platform of goodness. Then you have to transcend the goodness platform and come to the vasudeva platform, Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform. This is progress. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobha. Rajas tamas means kāma and lobha, endless greediness and endless lusty desires. That will keep us within the category of material existence. Mūḍhā janmani janmani aprāpya mām [Bg. 16.20]. Then we remain mūḍha, life after life. That is not the aim of human life. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. We take once type of body and struggle and again die, and again accept another, another type of body. There are 8,400,000 different types of body. This is going on. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Find out this verse. This is the beginning of spiritual education. One has to learn it, that "I'm not this body; I'm within this body, and I'm transmigrating from one body to another." That means repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. This is the main problem of life. So human life means to make a solution of these problems, not to be entangled with these problems again and again. Indian man: The question is, one must be able to see if there's a problem. People don't see it as a problem. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Here is your problem: janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]." Find out this verse. *Jayādvaita: Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. *Prabhupāda: Yes, find out. This is knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means one must be able to see that what are the actual problems. Just like the scientists, the philosophers, they're trying to solve so many problems. But first of all, fix up what is the problem. Temporary problem, to make a solution, that is going on. But actual problem is this: na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. The soul is not destroyed, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit, at any time. One should be very prudent to see that "If I have no birth and no death, then what is this nonsense, birth and death?" That is knowledge. Why I am dying? Why there is birth problem? Why there is death problem? And as soon as there is birth problem, there is disease problem, there is old age problem. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says.... What is the janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi? Jayādvaita: It's in the list of items of knowledge, "The perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease." Prabhupāda: Yes. And the cure, medicine, is also given: tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then.... Everyone has to give up this body, but a person who is in thorough knowledge of Kṛṣṇa, then he, after giving up this body, he does not accept any more material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma [Bg. 4.9]. Find out his verse. Jayādvaita: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the solution. Therefore our only business should be to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of life. That makes the solution*-tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Our propaganda is how to understand Kṛṣṇa. And this yoga, Kṛṣṇa consciousness yoga, simply thinking of Kṛṣṇa, and try to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is explained. *Without any doubt. And if you, asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ mām, if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. We are therefore requesting everyone, study Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Don't interpret. Don't screw out your concocted meaning. Then your life is successful. Every politician, every scholar, everyone is trying to screw out some meaning. That is the disease. But we say, we are begging people, that "You read Bhagavad-gītā As It Is and try to understand it." Very simple thing. We haven't got to become very learned scholars. Our business is to go to you and request you, "Please read Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Don't try to interpret it." That is our preaching. Very simple. Because Bhagavad-gītā, the instruction is there, and we haven't got to manufacture anything. So as a peon, we carry only: "You please read it as it is." Or you try to explain as it is. And where is the explanation? Everything is clear. The beginning is, *Sañjaya is asking, Dhṛtarāṣṭra is asking Sañjaya, that "My sons and my brother's sons, both of them assembled together for fighting, then what did they do?" And they assembled in the dharma*-kṣetre, Kurukṣetra. That place is still there, Kurukṣetra. You have been in India. And the Kurukṣetra station is there, and people are still going by thousands to Kurukṣetra as a dharma-kṣetra. So where is the difficulty to understand the meaning of these two words, dharma-kṣetre, kuru-kṣetre [Bg. 1.1]? Why you should interpret "Kuru-kṣetre means this, dharma-kṣetre means this"? Why? Mislead others and mislead himself. Indian man: It must be understood literally, you say. *Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Suppose you have got some philosophy. So you can explain your philosophy differently. Why should you take Bhagavad*-gītā and explain your philosophy? Is it honesty? Indian man: All the ācāryas have been doing it. *Prabhupāda: No ācāryas are doing it. All lower*-class men. No ācāryas do it. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, these are ācāryas. Śaṅkarācārya, Caitanya, they never did it. Outsiders, who did not care for the authority of the ācārya, they did it. Otherwise, we are the ācārya sampradāya. They'll never do that. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. Ācāryopāsanam. That is bona fide process of knowledge. Ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam. Ācāryopāsanam. This is the process of knowledge. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. This is the ācārya. Ācārya will never interpret things like that. You see Rāmānujācārya's comments on Bhagavad-gītā. Nothing changed. But in every śloka he has given evidence from the Vedas, from the Upaniṣads. Ācārya will never change. Jayādvaita: In the list of items of knowledge, "approaching a bona fide spiritual master." Ācāryopāsanam. Prabhupāda: This is ācārya. Indian man (2): Swamiji, you think bhakti is the solution to the problem of the world today? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. That is your natural position. You are protected, and God is protector. That's a fact. You cannot live even for a moment without protection of God. That is your position. That is explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. Perhaps you have read it in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. You have read Caitanya-caritāmṛta? Yes. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, He immediately gives the definition and position of the living entity: jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa. Sanātana Gosvāmī asked Him, "People glorify me that I am very learned scholar." Grāmya-vyavahāre kahe paṇḍita satya kari' māni. You understand Bengali? Grāmya-vyavahāre kahe paṇḍita. "My these neighbors, they call me paṇḍita. And I accept, 'Yes, I am paṇḍita.' But I am such a paṇḍita," āpanāra hitāhita kichui nā jāni, "I do not know what is my aim of life and what is good for me. I'm such a paṇḍita." Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu answered, 'ke āmi,' 'kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya' ihā nāhi jāni kemane hita haya. So mistake is, Caitanya Mahāprabhu immediately pointed out, that "You are learned, of course, there is no doubt, but you are submitting yourself as others..." Now He said that "You have questioned that ke āmi, 'Who I am?' " So He said that "You are servant of God. That is your real identification." Then He begins teaching. So our position is servant of God. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). One singular number and plural number, ceta, eternal. The singular number cetana is the maintainer, and the plural number cetana is the maintained. So our position is maintained. Just like father maintains the children. That is natural. And children's duty is to remain obedient to the father. That's all. That is bhakti. Then the family is all right. Family means father, mother and children. They're missing.... The children they are seeing, the mother they are seeing, and they are saying there is no father. This is modern civilization. How is that? The children are there, the mother is there. How is that there is no father? What is this conclusion? A sane man's conclusion is if the children are there, the mother is there, there must be father. Without father, how mother can beget children? Is there any experience that without father, mother has given birth to children? The modern civilization is: mother is material nature and we are all sons, born in the womb of the material nature. So who is the father? That inquiry is lacking. But there is father, undoubtedly. And the answer is given in the Bhagavad-gītā: sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. Find out this verse. Sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10]. *Jayādvaita: "It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." *Prabhupāda: That's it. And that is the root cause of all problems, that they are missing the father. He is the maintainer. Godless. Is it possible that the mother gives birth to a child without father? Is there any experience in the history of the world, the mother has given birth to a child without connection with the father? They say, "We have not seen father." That does not mean there is no father. A child may not have seen his father. There are many children, but that does not mean that he has no father. There must be father. And so if there is father, no father, how you know it? Suppose you have not seen. You ask the mother, "Mother, am I born without father?" Mother says, "No, you have got your father." Or she can show, "Here is your father." So you cannot understand the father by your research work. You have to take the knowledge from the mother, authority. There is no other way. You cannot make any experiment or research knowledge who is father. That is not possible. You'll never understand who is father. You have to take the authority of the Vedas to understand what is God, or what is the supreme father. And here in the Bhagavad*-gītā the supreme father personally is coming and teaching you, "I am the father." So what is the objection to accepting Him? All the ācāryas have accepted, as you spoke of the ācāryas. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has accepted. So what is my objection? That means I am defying all the ācāryas. All the Vedas says kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. And this is supported by the ācāryas. Prof. O'Connell: Swamiji, could you speak a bit about the proper attitude of the child towards the father? Is it one of fear, respect, love? *Prabhupāda: Love. Basic relation love. Father loves the child, naturally. The child also naturally loves the father. This is natural relationship. Father works whole day and night for maintaining the children, family, and if the child out of love takes his lozenges and offers to the father, "Father, it is very nice, you take," father will be very glad. "Oh, yes, yes, I'll take." Father does not require the lozenges, but out of love the small child offering a little lozenges, father is very glad: "Oh, this child loves me." So Kṛṣṇa says patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati tad aham aśnāmi [Bg. 9.26]. This is relationship. Even the poorest man, he can offer to Kṛṣṇa a little flower, little fruit, and Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, if it is offered with love, I accept it." That is the relation. What Kṛṣṇa has got to do with little flower and little fruits? But He accepts, tad aham aśnāmi. He said. Bhakty*-upahṛtam. "Because he has brought it with love and devotion, I accept it." If the supreme father accepts from you something, then your life is successful. Prof. O'Connell: The human children often play with their fathers. Is playfulness the proper attitude for... Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not play, that is real love. Just like father sometimes becomes a horse, and the child rides over, and father enjoys. There is a story about Prime Minister Gladstone. He was prime minister, so many people come to him. So one man came and the doorman said, "He is now busy. Wait." So he was waiting for one hour. Then he became impatient; *he wanted to see what this gentleman is doing. So he saw that he has become a horse, and his grandchild is driving him. So why the prime minister had become a horse to take back his grandchild on the back and enjoy? Is it a horse? This is out of love, enjoying. He was not wasting time. The other visitors were waiting. This is love. So to revive that natural life is the opportunity in human life. We have distributed our love in so many material things. Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes and directly speaks that "You withdraw all these nonsense activities." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. "Try to love Me. Then your life is successful." This is āśliṣya. Personally requested that "Why you are rotting in this material world of birth and death and manufacturing so many ways of life? You give up all this nonsense. Just surrender to Me, you'll be happy." This is natural. *This is first*-class system of religion which teaches the followers how to love God. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. What kind of love? Ahaituky apratihatā. Without any motive and without any impediment. Then he'll be pleased. Yayātmā suprasīdati. Then he'll be happy. So we are after happiness, peacefulness. This is the only way. *So the teachings are there, the process is there, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu is practical demonstration of the teachings. That is detected by Rūpa Gosvāmī. Namo mahā*-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. So we require kṛṣṇa-prema, love of God. So "You are so munificent that You are giving Kṛṣṇa-prema. Kṛṣṇāya, You are Kṛṣṇa, we understand that You are Kṛṣṇa. You are personally giving kṛṣṇa-prema." Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya also said like that. So Kṛṣṇa comes Himself to teach what is God and what is the relationship with God. And people still mistake. Therefore He comes as devotee, how to teach people how to approach Kṛṣṇa. These things are there. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to understand Kṛṣṇa through Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Otherwise, it is very difficult. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu especially appeared to give Kṛṣṇa. Therefore if we go through Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we understand Kṛṣṇa very quickly. And as soon as we understand Kṛṣṇa, we become liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma [Bg. 4.9], the whole solution of all problems. Prof. O'Connell: Swamiji, do you know Professor Bimal Motilal came in during your discourse? *Prabhupāda: Oh, (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Motilal. (converses in Hindi) That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. These things are unknown in the Western countries. So anyone who has taken birth in India, Bhārata-varṣa, they should make his..., one should make his life perfect by assimilating all these śāstras and preach the resultant action to the outsiders. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission-pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma. So you Indians, you are here, you assimilate the teachings of Gītā, Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, and Caitanya-caritāmṛta, and help these people. That is India's business. Woman: Swamiji, would you say something about the place of women in your movement? *Prabhupāda: There is no distinction between man and woman. That is clearly said in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpā-yonayaḥ striyo śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ [Bg. 9.32]. The first is mentioned, striya. Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ. These classes are understood to be less intelligent-woman, śūdra, and the vaiśyas. But Kṛṣṇa says, "No, even for them it is open." Because in the spiritual platform there is no such distinction, man, woman, or black, white, or big or small. No. Everyone is spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva śva-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ [Bg. 5.18], one who is actually learned, he is sama-darśinaḥ. He does not make any distinction. But so far our material body is concerned, there must be some distinction for keeping the society in order. Woman: The women could become paṇḍitas, then. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Not only come, she can also attain perfection. There is no such restriction. Kṛṣṇa said. Woman: Do you have any paṇḍitas in the Western movement? Prabhupāda: There are so many Western woman, girls, in our society. They are chanting, dancing, taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Of course, because superficially, bodily, there is some distinction, so we keep women separately from men, that's all. Otherwise, the rights are the same. Prof. O'Connell: Is it possible, Swamiji, for a woman to be a guru in the line of disciplic succession? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Jāhnavā devī was*-Nityānanda's wife. She became. If she is able to go to the highest perfection of life, why it is not possible to become guru? But, not so many. Actually one who has attained the perfection, she can become guru. But man or woman, unless one has attained the perfection.... Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128]. The qualification of guru is that he must be fully cognizant of the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then he or she can become guru. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei guru haya. [break] In our material world, is it any prohibition that woman cannot become professor? If she is qualified, she can become professor. What is the wrong there? She must be qualified. That is the position. So similarly, if the woman understands Kṛṣṇa consciousness perfectly, she can become guru. Indian man: Well, to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, do you not require adhikārī? Prabhupāda: Adhikārī means he must agree to understand. That is adhikārī. But we do not agree. That is our fault. Indian man: Is this agreement due to learning or out of...? *Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa says sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām [Bg. 18.66], you surrender, you become qualified. You agree, "Yes, I surrender, Kṛṣṇa says." Then immediately you become qualified. But that you do not do. Kṛṣṇa is personally canvassing, but we are not agreeing. What can be done? If I say, with a bag of million dollars, "Take this bag," if you don't agree, then you remain poor man. But you agree, "Yes, without any labor I'm getting the million dollars. Well, all right." Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. To come to that Kṛṣṇa consciousness rightly and surrender to Kṛṣṇa, it takes many millions of births. But if one is intelligent, if this is the ultimate goal, that one has to come to this point, to surrender to Vāsudeva, why not do it immediately? That is intelligence. That is intelligence. Kṛṣṇa is canvassing. One has to take millions of births to come to this point, and Kṛṣṇa is personally promising, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. Why not take advantage? That means you do not agree. If you agree, the result is immediate. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. They are thinking, "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is also human being like me. Why shall I surrender to Him?" They are mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ. Then remain a rascal. What can be done? We have got little independence, because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. But because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, we have got little independence, so we can refuse. Although Kṛṣṇa canvassing, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], we can refuse: "Why shall I surrender to You?" That is our misfortune. But if you agree, you get immediate result. Therefore this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. To agree, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Because we have got so many nasty, dirty things within our heart, we cannot agree. But if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then we become cleansed in heart, and then agree. Those who are not agreeing, for them it is recommended, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalaṁ kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name is not different, by association of Kṛṣṇa you become purified. Then you understand, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā [Bg. 7.19]. You become the greatest mahātmā: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is everything." Then you surrender. You have to surrender-today or tomorrow or many millions of births after. You have to do that. Otherwise, you'll be troubled by the laws of material nature. *So we have to come to that point, how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is nature's way, pulling by the ear: "Come here, do this." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. This will go on as long as you are not agreeing to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, there is no infringement by māyā. [break] (Bengali) You understand Bengali? So the process is going on by the laws of nature to give us different types of trouble. The main trouble is janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. It will go on unless we surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Better surrender in this life and be perfect; *then things are all right. And what is the benefit of our so*-called independence? If we declare that we are independent of the laws of nature, is it possible? Is it possible? Then where is your independence? Why you are declaring falsely independence? If you declare yourself independent of God, then you become dependent on māyā. Just like the criminals. They don't care for the laws of the government. They become under the laws of the prison house, that's all. There is no question of independence. Either you remain free or in the prison house, you are under the laws of government. So why falsely declaring independent and don't care for the government? Outlaws. That is called māyā-false prestige which is not possible. Guest (1): Swamiji, you came to New York, I believe, in 1965. Can you remember some of your first impressions of North American society when you came here? Did you feel it was ripe for Kṛṣṇa consciousness at that time? *Prabhupāda: No. I was not very much hopeful. That I wrote one poetry, that "Kṛṣṇa, why You have brought me in this country? What can I do? How I shall convince them how they will understand the philosophy? So, but because You have brought me here, must be there is some purpose. So all right. You make me dance as You like." That poetry, I (wrote) in Boston, Commonwealth Pier, on the sea. I came by ship. So I wrote that poetry, that I do not know what for I have come here, why Kṛṣṇa has brought me here. As soon as I shall say that there is no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no drinking, and no gambling, they'll say, "You go home. Don't talk." I knew this. Still I attempted. But these boys kindly accepted. I never made any compromise. I said, "These are the first conditions to become Kṛṣṇa conscious: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Are you agreed?" They say yes, then come. If I would have made compromise, "Yes, whatever you like you can do." No, I never did. Ask them. I never did. Some of them left, that "It is too difficult. The primary necessities of life are denied here." (chuckles) But these boys, they have accepted, and therefore it is improving. They are young men, they have got all the desires for material enjoyment, but they have sacrificed everything. That is tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. If you want to purify your existence, then you must practice tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa yamena niyamena [SB 6.1.13]. That is tapasya. First beginning is brahmacarya. Therefore according to Vedic system, brahmacārī first*-to teach how to become brahmacārī. Brahmacārī guru-gṛhe vasan dānto guror hitam. The children should be trained up in such a way that they will be able to control the senses and act only for the benefit of guru. That is brahmacārī. They have no personal interest. So they are collecting daily not less than one lakh of rupees, up to five lakh, these boys. But their expenditure at my direction. Not a single paisa they can spend in their own discretion. They are laboring hard to get this collection, but the money is mine. This is the arrangement. Now in Hyderabad they immediately require two lakhs. The money is there, they can take it, but they are asking by telegram my permission. I'll give them, but this is the arrangement. Guror hitam, brahmacārī. Vasan dānto guror hitam. So the prescription is there, the formula is there, the literature is there. If we take this culture, then the whole human society will be happy. That is our mission. Prof. O'Connell: Do you find, Swamiji, that the mood of the young people in North America is the same now as it was in '65, or has it changed? Prabhupāda: That you can see. Prof. O'Connell: Are they still willing to join in the same way? Prabhupāda: Yes, many young boys are joining daily. Viśvakarmā: Since we got the new building here, we have twelve new brahmacārīs that are being initiated this evening. *Prabhupāda: But to accept this creed requires some big qualification. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says in the Caitanya*-ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Some selected, fortunate persons can accept. Kona bhāgyavān. Not everybody. *It is not very easy thing to accept Kṛṣṇa as everything and surrender there. It is not so easy. But it is possible if one is fortunate. Kona bhāgyavān. But anyone can accept it. What is the difficulty? But they'll not do it. Therefore unfortunate. What is the difficulty, Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Does Kṛṣṇa say anything extraordinary that we cannot perform? Nothing. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things: "You just think of Me always-man-manā. You just become My devotee, worship Me and offer your obeisances unto Me." Four things. Where is the difficulty? Anyone can think of Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, Hare Rāma. Where is the loss? Is there any loss? Is there any tax if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Just make an experiment and see the result. There is no loss, there is no tax, there is no botheration. Why don't you do it? Not at all difficult. If you compare with other system, this is the easiest. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. The Gosvāmīs did. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau. They taught us how to do it. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau. They did this, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and dancing. And the love was coming. Premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau pūjitau śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau bhuvi bhuvo bhārāvahantārakau vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. In the morning we have.... Always we have got kīrtana, in morning especially. You can see how these boys dancing and chanting only Hare Kṛṣṇa, how they are ecstatic. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Chant, dance and take prasāda. Bas. Su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam. In the Ninth Chapter: Rāja-vidyā rāja-guhyam. Su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam [Bg. 9.2]. To execute this Kṛṣṇa consciousness business is very, very palatable and happy. And whatever you do, avyayam, that is your permanent asset. Read it. Jayādvaita: "This knowledge is the king of education." Prabhupāda: No, Sanskrit. *Jayādvaita: Oh. Rāja*-vidyā rāja-guhyam. Prabhupāda: Pavitram idam uttamam. *Jayādvaita: Pavitram idam uttamaṁ pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyaṁ su*-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam. *Prabhupāda: Uttamam. Pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyam. You can directly understand whether you are going forward. These boys, they are educated, they are coming from rich family*-at least, in rich nation. They are not fools and rascals. Unless they feel pratyakṣa avagamam, how they can stick? Just like you are hungry, you are eating. Unless you feel that you are eating, "Yes, I am getting strength, satisfying my appetite," then you can go on eating. It is like that. Pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyam. You don't require to get certificate from others, that "I am eating. Whether I am satisfied?" You will feel. You don't require to take certificate from others. If you are actually eating, the result you will feel. That is pratyakṣa avagamaṁ dharmyam. Other process, you do not know whether you are actually making progress or not. You are simply going to the ritualistic ceremonies, but whether you are actually going forward, that you cannot understand. But you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will understand directly, "Yes, I'm making progress. What I was and what I am now?" Everyone will tell their life history. Pratyakṣam means directly. Pratyakṣa avagamaṁ dharmyam. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu [Bg. 7.1]. These things are there. Asaṁśayam. There will be no doubt. Other process, you have doubt. This man says that he's God: Whether he's God? But when real God says, then there will be no doubt. Asaṁśayam. So, give them prasāda. Take little prasādam. Thank you very much. So we are trying our best. So if you kindly cooperate with us, we'll get more encouragement. People will be more benefited. Prof. O'Connell: Don't you have a gurukula in Texas? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. O'Connell: Is there any chance of having a gurukula in Canada? Prabhupāda: Why not? We can... Prof. O'Connell: Nice city. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukula means to teach them a way of life, that's all. Brahmacārī guru*-gṛhe vasan dānta, how to control senses, the first business. Dānta. Śānta dānta, peaceful and controlling senses. Prof. O'Connell: Swamiji, if somebody is in the movement for several years and feels that he's not making progress and leaves, is he looked upon as a sinner or enemy? How do the devotees feel about persons like that? *Prabhupāda: Not like.... Just like in college, school, some student making rapid progress, some of them are a little slow. That does not mean that he should he rejected. He should be given chance. But if he follows the regulative principles, there is no chance of falling down. The regulative principle is that you refrain from these activities: illicit sex, meat*-eating, intoxication and gambling, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That will make him perfect. Very easy. We don't say no sex; *we say illicit sex. So if you want sex, you become a gentleman, marry and live like a gentleman. Why illicit sex? There are many gṛhastha devotee. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu's direct associate, Nityānanda, He was a gṛhastha. Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself was a gṛhastha. He married twice. First wife died, he married second wife. So gṛhastha is not rejected. Simply it is not that simply sannyāsīs will go back to home. No. Everyone can go. Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ. They can go also. But one must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's recommendation is that you remain your place*-don't try to change it artificially-but be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is required. And that is also very easy, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Read Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. At home or out of home, it doesn't matter. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. You remain in your situation, place, and śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāk, and hear, just lend your aural reception of the words of Kṛṣṇa. So that day will come, Kṛṣṇa, who is ajita, you can conquer Him. Ajito 'pi jito 'py asi. Nobody can conquer Kṛṣṇa, but by this method, one can conquer Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Swamiji, would you know whether people who joined the movement in their older years are more likely to stay on than those who join when they are younger? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Younger, older, there is no restriction. Guest (1): It doesn't appeal more to the young ones than to the older people? *Prabhupāda: No, any education, if you take young, youthtime, that is easily. For old man it is difficult, but he has to take so many years to forget what he has learned. (laughter) That is the difficulty. Young man, they are easily receptive. Old man thinks, "Why shall I give up my present understanding?" That is the difficulty. But if he gives up and takes to, sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], if he takes to it, then immediately, in a moment. So this is, this plate is for me? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: No, no, keep it and I shall.... At least I shall see. It is for you, take it. Guest (1): No, it's for you. Prabhupāda: No, no. He'll save this for me. Devotee (1): It's for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Nice. And no tea, no liquor. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ. If the professors chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, naturally the students will do that. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad eva itaro janaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. Less important person also follow. If the professor's chanting, the student will immediately follow. You can do better service. If I go, I request them, they'll not do it. But as soon as they: "My professor is doing. All right. Immediately." Prof. O'Connell: (to other professor) Do you have such devotion among your students in McMaster? You don't see much. Indian man: (indistinct) Prof. O'Connell: We had a graduation ceremony today down at the University. I've just come up from it. Are you going to send any of your students to the University to get their doctoral studies so that they can teach at other universities? We'd be delighted if some would come this way. Viśvakarmā: One boy, Garuḍa dāsa, is going to study at the University of Chicago for his Ph.D. in Sanskrit. Prof. O'Connell: Good. Prabhupāda: The real education is life. Gurukula means it is a way of life training. It is said that brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānta. This is the way of life: how to learn controlling the senses. Nowadays we have got school, colleges, universities, but this method is not there, how to become dānta. The method is different, that "You can do whatever you like; you simply attend class." That is not the way of life. This is tapasya. This is tapasya. This can be done. All these things, tapasya can be executed simply by learning devotional service. Then everything is there. Kecit kevalayā bhaktyā. So we are describing these things in our books. If these books are made textbook.... I think in some of the colleges they are making textbooks, our books, in Germany, in Hamburg University. There is university of the name Hamburg? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: East Berlin. Prabhupāda: They have taken some of our books for textbook. Prof. O'Connell: There is a German gentleman, Walter Eidlitz, who wrote in German a life of Śrī Caitanya some years ago. Did he ever meet you, by any chance, Walter Eidlitz? Prabhupāda: Eh? Prof. O'Connell: He spent some time in Vṛndāvana during the Second War, became a Vaiṣṇava, devotee, I believe, and then wrote this lengthy German life of Caitanya. I don't think it's translated yet. *Prabhupāda: There is one, my Godbrothers also, you perhaps know, Sadānanda. He came to India in 1935, Gauḍīya Maṭha. And my Guru Mahārāja first initiated him with hari*-nāma. Two gentlemen came: one Ernst Schulze, another Von something. But later on they left. This Schulze was my intimate friend. *Prof. O'Connell: One of your Godbrothers was in Toronto about this time last year, Swami Bhakti*-hṛdaya Bon Mahārāja was passing through Toronto. Your devotees came over to the house and were very courteous to him and invited him back to the temple, and he was very pleased. Prabhupāda: Yes, I wrote him care of your address. Prof. O'Connell: That's right. Prabhupāda: I invited him to Hawaii, but by that time he left. Prof. O'Connell: His plans were... Guest (1): Swami, do you attach any significance to the fact that this temple is in a form of a Christian church? Prabhupāda: There are many Christian church we have converted temple. They sell for want of customer. And we purchase, we increase customers. But customer of the same place. That is the beauty. These customers, they are not brought from India. But formerly they were not coming here, now they are coming in crowd. In Los Angeles we purchased.... You have been in Los Angeles? Now we have got a regular colony. About one dozen big, big houses. So that was a church. Nobody was coming, they sold it to us. Now it is always crowded. This church, they were not going to sell us. But (laughs) under circumstances it came to us. We wanted to purchase it, but the proprietor would not sell to us. They were charging very big price. So we are prepared. Still he'll not agree. Now we have purchased less price. (to devotee:) What is the history? Devotee: Well, the previous owner didn't want to sell it to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. They said they'd prefer to burn it down. (Prabhupāda laughs) One Indian gentleman who is a prominent businessman in Toronto purchased it in trust, saying that he was representing some Indian social group. So he purchased it in trust. Then the chairman of the committee of trustees who were in charge of selling the church noticed some tilaka on Viśvakarmā's face. He had a hat on so his śikhā wouldn't show. When he saw it was Hare Kṛṣṇa, he became very disturbed. Viśvakarmā: He said, "Oh, no, the Hare Kṛṣṇas." Prabhupāda: So they are not very favorable to the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. (laughs) *Indian man: How long did it take for Swamiji to write the seventeen volumes, translation of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta? Prabhupāda: It can be finished, but I have to look after this management, that is the difficulty. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's asking about the Caitanya*-caritāmṛtas. Prabhupāda: Ācchā, it is finished. Hari-śauri: How long did it take? Prabhupāda: Oh. It took one year and six months. Guest (1): When do you usually write? *Prabhupāda: I write in the night. I get up at half past twelve. I go to bed at half past ten, and I get up at half past twelve. Then I finish my chanting, if there is any balance, and then I begin dictating. And the morning they take it and type it. So this dictaphone is always with me, wherever I go, so my writing book is not stopped. Maybe few pages, but something is there daily. Little drops of water wears the stone. So in that way we have translated so many books. About fifty*-four books are already published, besides the small booklets. And, how many we have published, Bhāgavatam? About twenty-two? Hari-śauri: Twenty volumes, and two more in print now. *Prabhupāda: Therefore twenty*-two. I am expecting sixty volumes. Sixty volumes of four hundred pages. The biggest canto is the Tenth Canto. I've already published the Tenth Canto, summarized: Kṛṣṇa. But in detail, it will take at least twenty volumes. Indian man: It's almost as big as the rest of the book. Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian man: Tenth is almost as big as the rest of the book. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are ninety chapters. Ninety chapters. All other cantos, at most thirty chapters. But Tenth Canto is ninety chapters. That is Kṛṣṇa's face, Kṛṣṇa's beautiful face. Everyone is attracted by the smiling face of Kṛṣṇa. *Indian man: Is there any other bhāṣya other than Baladeva*-bhāṣya? Prabhupāda: No, many others. Indian man: Gauḍīya, Śaṅkara... *Prabhupāda: No, other ācāryas. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya and Vallabhācārya. Then our Gauḍīya*-bhāṣya, this Jīva Gosvāmī, Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. And Rādhāramaṇa Gosvāmī, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī's descendant. *Indian man: Is there any plan to translate into English? Is there any plan to translate Jīva Gosvāmī's Jīva*-bhāṣya? *Prabhupāda: No, no. I am taking help from all these Gosvāmīs and giving a summary. Where is that book? That green book? (probably referring to Prabhupāda's green Bhāgavatam with eight commentaries) [break] First comment I find, Viśvanātha Cakravartī and Vīra*-rāghavācārya, the Rāmānujācārya sampradāya. Vīra-rāghavācārya. Indian man: Ādhunika bhāṣya. *Prabhupāda: It is not ādhunika. It was written at least two hundred, three hundred years ago. Ādhunika, who is care? Who cares for Bhāgavatam? Technology, hammer..., cuta*-cut-cuta. Nobody is now interested in philosophy or English literature. The professors say. I have got.... So read the names of the commentator, any chapter. Who are.... Śrīdhara Svāmī. *Pradyumna: (reading Sanskrit names) Śrīdhara Svāmī, and Vaṁśidhara*-kṛta-bhāvārtha-dīpikā-prakāśa-bhāṣya, Śrī-Gaṅgā-sahaya-praṇītānvika-prakāśaś ca. And Śrīmad-vīra-rāghavācārya bhāgavata-candrikā, Śrīmad-vijaya-dhvaja-tīrtha-racita-pada-ratnāvalī, Śrīmaj-jīva-gosvāmī, Krama-Sandarbha, Viśvanātha-cakravartī-kṛta-sārārtha-darśini, Śrīmad-śukadeva-kṛta-siddhānta pathī, Gosvāmī-śrī-giri-hari-lāla-gupta gośāla-prabodhinī. Prabhupāda: That is Vallabhācārya. *Pradyumna: Uh.... Śrī*-bhagavat-prasādācārya-praṇīta-bhakti-mano-rañjanī. Prabhupāda: All the ācāryas, in their disciplic succession, they have written their comments. Only Śaṅkarācārya has not written. (laughs) He's impersonalist. He could not. Although the present generation of Śaṅkarācārya, they are living by reciting *Bhāgavatam* and making kadarthanā. This is going on. *Indian man: They advocate the advaita*-tattva in Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: There is one Akandananda Swami in Vṛndāvana. Indian man: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There is.... "Kṛṣṇa, kṛ means this, ṣṇa means this," like that. *Indian man: Even Rāmānujācārya sampradāya, Bhāgavata is not cited, quoted. Bhāgavata quotes. (indistinct) Rāmānuja does not quote from Bhāgavata in Śrī*-bhāṣya. *Prabhupāda: Rāmānuja, here is Rāmān, Vīra*-rāghavācārya is Rāmānuja. *Indian man: That is later. I am talking about the great Rāmānujācārya, Śrī*-bhāṣya. *Prabhupāda: No, Bhāgavata is accepted. Yad vaiṣṇavānāṁ priya. Any Vaiṣṇava, Bhāgavata is, they write comment or not comment. Formerly.... Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not write any.... That does not mean He was not accepting Bhāgavata. That does not mean. But His disciples wrote, disciplic succession. [break] ...not comment. That does not matter. It is dearmost. Just like in our Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava there was no comment on the Vedānta*-sūtra. Because Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended.... And in the Bhāgavata also, every chapter, Brahma-sūtra-bhāṣya. Is that, any chapter? At the end of chapter. *Pradyumna: Here it doesn't have. The Gauḍīya edition. End of chapter: śrī-śrīmad*-bhāgavata-mahāpurāṇe paramahaṁsa-saṁhitāyām. *Prabhupāda: Paramahaṁsa*-saṁhitāyām. Brahma-sūtra-bhāṣya is not there? Pradyumna: No, only Gauḍīya. *Prabhupāda: So, it is actually bhāṣyāyāṁ brahma-sūtrāṇām. It is stated. This is the real commentary on Brahma-sūtra by Vyāsadeva himself, author. Vyāsadeva is the author of Brahma-sūtra, and he has written personally, under the instruction of his guru, Nārada Muni, this Brahma-sūtra-bhāṣya. And it begins with the Brahma-sūtra aphorism: janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The Brahma-sūtra begins with these words: janmādya, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Janmādy asya yataḥ. So these things are explained elaborately. Therefore Brahma-sūtra-bhāṣya, bhāṣyāyāṁ brahma-sūtra. Vedārtha paribṛṁhita. So therefore in our Gauḍīya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not write any bhāṣya of the Brahma-sūtra, neither the gosvāmīs, because they took it that Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the real bhāṣya of Brahma-sūtra. But when.... Sometimes the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas are challenged that "You cannot be accepted as bona fide community, spiritual community, because you have no bhāṣya on Brahma-sūtra." Then Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa wrote govinda-bhāṣya. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not like or ask His disciples to write, because He thought, "This is the Gauḍīya, Brahma-sūtra-bhāṣya." Not Gauḍīya*-for every Vaiṣṇava. Bhāṣyāyāṁ brahma-sūtrāṇām. So we have got now Gauḍīya Vedānta-bhāṣya. Rāmānuja Vedānta-bhāṣya is there. Madhvācārya Vedānta-bhāṣya is there, all. And Gauḍīya had not. But since this challenge was made in Jaipur, then Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, he took: "Yes," and he finished, Gauḍīya bhāṣya, and it is called Govinda-bhāṣya. Actually, in India, unless one follows the ācāryas and has given commentary on the Brahma-sūtra, he's not a bona fide. Nyāya-prasthāna. Brahma-sūtra is called nyāya-prasthāna. Śruti-prasthāna, smṛti-prasthāna, nyāya-prasthāna. So any bona fide ācārya must give his understanding about these three prasthānas. Prof. O'Connell: Swamiji, it may be time for us to take your leave. It was a great pleasure and honor to... *Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. Now my request is that you take up this movement. It is actually a great contribution to the human society. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭha [Bg. 3.21]. Those who are leaders of the society, if they take it, it is easily understood and easily distributed. So there is no question of sectarian thought. It is the necessity of the human society to understand God. The other day in Detroit, two father priests came to see me. I also requested that we require a set of first*-class men that is not there at the present moment. There is no head. They are thinking simply arms wanted, defense, and fight amongst themselves. That's all. Everyone is thinking simply arms wanted. And what they will do with the arms? Fight between themselves, that's all. So one asura was given one thousand hands by Lord Śiva. But he could not find any enemy. So he was fighting with hills and mountains and making him smashed. So he came to Lord Śiva: "Sir, you have given me one thousand hands, but there is no enemy for me. I cannot fight." So Śiva said, "Yes, you just wait for the day when your enemy will come who will smash you into pieces." (laughs) So we are simply equipping with arms and finding out to whom we'll fight. That is going on. So everyone is manufacturing the atomic weapons. So there must be some fight, so that all the nations will be ruined. (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 18, 1976, Toronto Viśvakarmā: Soon they will be able to sell it to us. (Prabhupāda laughs) Then we'll make a walkway across. Prabhupāda: Harer nāma, harer nāma [Ādi 17.21]. Indian (1): Where there'll be cold, it is like a demoniac place, cold. Is it right? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Indian (1): What about if it is too warm then? I mean why don't they...? Prabhupāda: Too warm, too cold, both are bad. [break] Devotee: ...too warm, but it is not bad. Prabhupāda: (laughs) In India it is actually so. [break] Indian (2): ...land is getting the benefit by your lotus feet, actually pious. Prabhupāda: [break] ...propaganda is going on to kill God. Pani haya svapisaca khanakila.(?) [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that India this year has produced a record crop of wheat, surplus. Prabhupāda: Yes, if they work, they can do that. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In West Bengal they have huge quantities of rice surplus. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: Could that be due to our saṅkīrtana activities? *Prabhupāda: Certainly. Bhavanti parjanyaḥ parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ. There was big valley like this in Tokyo. We walked, and there was a creek like this. Not so dirty. [break] Indian (1): ...high commissioners, for the passport. They're so demoniac, they're not working at all, they're.... [break] ...politics and they sit there. [break] Prabhupāda: ...is sympathetic with this movement. Everyone wants godlessness. And this movement is preaching about God, so nobody likes us. [break] Devotee: They've poisoned the lakes so much in Canada now that they've been making an attempt to turn rivers around in northern Ontario to flush the lakes out like a toilet, so they can flush part of the water down to cities like Chicago. [break] (laughter) Prabhupāda: To save all these botherations. You live here? How long you'll live in Canada? Devotee: Nine years. Prabhupāda: No... Devotees: How long will you live here. Devotee: I don't know. (laughter) Satsvarūpa: ...the leaf movement. That movement is another watering of the leaf and branches instead of the root, to try to improve the lakes. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ paramam avyayam. It has been published in the paper that we consider everyone a rascal, miscreant... Devotee: Sinful. Prabhupāda: ...who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious. That has been published. (laughter) You have seen it? Viśvakarmā: Which paper was that? Devotees: Los Angeles Times. [break] Prabhupāda: ...question? Tell it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The reply to..., I don't exactly know the question, the reply was that... *Hari-śauri: The question was what was Prabhupāda's opinion about other gurus, like Guru Maharaj*-ji and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So Prabhupāda replied that "We are not interested in so*-called other gurus. Simply we know this, that Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that persons who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they're either foolish, miscreants, sinful, lowest amongst mankind, or their knowledge is stolen by illusion." Unquote. Prabhupāda: General definition. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Los Angeles Times has a circulation of one and a half million daily. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...recently I said all these so*-called gurus are either rascals, miscreant, lowest of the mankind, or they have no knowledge. Not directly, indirectly. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How's that, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That is fact. These rascals come here for women and money, that's all. They do not know what is spiritual life. If I say like that, you think it is right or wrong? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You're right. Devotee: Good idea. You didn't compromise. Prabhupāda: Why compromise? [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think the nondevotees would like to be classified in one of those four categories. Prabhupāda: But they are. They may not, they may like or not like, it doesn't matter, but they are. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...that even persons who come to Kṛṣṇa with material desires, although... Prabhupāda: They are pious. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So is it to be understood that a very simple person who has all kinds of material desires, if he approaches God...? *Prabhupāda: Because he has approached God, therefore he's pious. Even though he has got material desires. Akāmaḥ sarva*-kāmo vā mokṣa-kāma [SB 2.3.10]. One day, he'll become devotee. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He went to search God for some material benefit, but when he became perfect, he became pure devotee. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...are better off than the godless philosophers and jñānīs? These people are better off than the mental speculator jñānīs? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, oh, yes, thousand times. [break] ...gentleman has not come? Devotee: Yesterday? No. Bhāgya. Prabhupāda: So 'haṁ bhāgya (Hindi conversation) Indian: [break] ...initiated devotee, and he follows those four regulative principles and chants sixteen rounds, will he go back to Godhead? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Mām evaiśyasi asaṁśaya. Kṛṣṇa says. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mām evaiśyasi asaṁśaya [Bg. 18.65]. Asaṁśaya, without any doubt. Indian: But by taking initiation, will that speed up the process? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I inquired yesterday. [break] Satsvarūpa: ...professor who's going to see you tonight, Professor O'Connell, he wrote a book review of Dr. Judah's book about our movement. And he said it was a very sympathetic book, Dr. Judah's, he said, and a little bit too sympathetic on one point. He made his statement. He thinks that our movement, the way we deny the flesh, he said, he called, "denying the flesh," it tends to make us a little cold in our relations to each other, and people in the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement are denying the natural affection that is somehow connected with the flesh. *Prabhupāda: No, we want to, what is called, reject that society. We cannot become sympathetic with everyone. That is not our policy. Asat*-saṅga-tyāga vaiṣṇava ācāra. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was asked what is the general behavior of a Vaiṣṇava, He said that the first thing is that you should give up bad company. So these are bad company. We cannot have any sympathy. We cannot make any compromise with everyone. That is not possible. The modern scientists, they have made quarantine? Quarantine? What is that? Hari-śauri: Separation. Prabhupāda: Hah. Hari-śauri: If someone has a disease, they separate. Prabhupāda: Those who are infected, they should be separated. You cannot make any compromise. Satsvarūpa: His point was that even amongst ourselves, even amongst the devotees, he says, there is not enough expression of love, because we don't allow... Prabhupāda: Well, then.... Trying to be perfect. Satsvarūpa: Flesh, skin disease. Prabhupāda: Perfect does not mean that they should eat meat and drink wine. That does not mean. What is his objection? Satsvarūpa: I think what it comes down to is that he objects that we are against illicit sex. Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughter) That means he is accustomed. Jagadīśa: These professors sit around, discuss topics of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and drink wine. Prabhupāda: Just see. Satsvarūpa: And their discussion is very blasphemous. This Dr. Dimmock, he's made much investigation on the Six Gosvāmīs, and he's read all manuscripts, and he's always going to India and studying Rūpa Gosvāmī and Lord Caitanya, but everything is extremely blasphemous that he writes. So in both ways, in their habits and whatever they write. The Library Party men, they become friendly to these professors, but only to use them more or less, that they'll accept our books, despite themselves. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that we must do. [break] ...policy is when we go to a, what is called, a bad character, we don't go to associate with him, but to give him our association. Therefore we must be strong and very pure, so that your association, they will be benefited. For the preachers, īśvare tad*-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu, the four behavior. Īśvara, tad-adhīneṣu, devotees, bāliśeṣu, innocent, and dviṣatsu, those who are envious. So a devotee, those who are preachers, they, prema, loving God, making friendship with devotee, and those who are innocent, to deliver. And those who are envious, reject. [break] Jagadīśa: ...professor, Śrīla Prabhupāda, named Motilal, is a Bengali Vaiṣṇava. But now he drinks and eats meat. [break] Prabhupāda: ...objection of Professor O'Connell? Satsvarūpa: He said that we don't, we deny expression of love through the body. Just like the gṛhasthas are not allowed, except to have children, to have sex, and brahmacārīs, not at all. So by denying, these are natural ways to express love, he says, and by denying them, the people in this movement become somewhat cold and don't have the experience of love. Prabhupāda: Love? This is love or lust? Satsvarūpa: He says there's a definite connection between the flesh and love, and you can't deny it, he said. I argued with him, but that was his viewpoint, that love is expressed through the flesh. Prabhupāda: Then how he has become a doctor in Vaiṣṇava philosophy? Devotee: He's a sick doctor. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would mean that the dog is a great lover. *Prabhupāda: No, in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta there is explanation, what is the difference between lust and love. Satsvarūpa: I told him if you observe the devotees, you'll see they have very affectionate loving dealings with one another, but it's not based on the flesh. We don't have to... Prabhupāda: That is lust. Sahajiyā. Lust is going on as love. [break] ...reviewed Dr. Judah's book? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Basically, he said it was a good book and that our movement is an important movement. But he made that one objection. Devotee: Then how does he explain how so many devotees can live together peacefully and happily if there's no reciprocation of love? Materialists can't even live together with their wife for very long. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] Śrīla Prabhupāda, they're simply interested in human flesh. They're not concerned about all the animal slaughter that's going on. They don't take objection to the animal slaughter, the animal flesh. But when it comes to the human flesh, because they think they can enjoy, then they take some concern. *Prabhupāda: They are taking human flesh also. Gradually they will be accustomed to take human flesh. Carnivore also. [break] ...Mahāprabhu said, asat eka strī*-saṅgī, strī-saṅgī, those who are attached to woman, he's asat. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] The question might arise that a jñānī is someone who is aware of his spiritual nature, that he's not this body, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Then the karmī is one who is, dehātma*-buddhi, in the bodily concept of life, and he's desiring so many materialistic things. So how can it be that the karmī, who is after some material benefit, if he approaches Kṛṣṇa, he can be better off than the jñānī? Prabhupāda: Because he has approached Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even he may be in the bodily concept? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That will be rectified. Kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā. Huh? What is that? Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya*-bhāk [Bg. 9.30]. When one has come to the fire, some way or other, he'll be warm, gradually. That is the.... He has come to the right path. [break] ...kāmād bhayāt, krodhāt. Either.... Anyone who comes to Kṛṣṇa.... Just like gopīs, they were captivated. They were village girls. They did not know what is God, what is Brahman, nothing. But they were captivated: "Kṛṣṇa is very beautiful boy." That's all. Even they forgot their own husbands. [break] ...or other, we have to develop our intense love of Kṛṣṇa. Then life is perfect. [break] (in car) One who is accepting this body as self, sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. They are making paper? Devotee: Tar. Prabhupāda: From tar, you find paper? Viśvakarmā: Yes. All different types of packaging have (indistinct) as well. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They keep salt in here for... Prabhupāda: Salt? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: When it snows on the highways, trucks come and they pour salt so it keeps the snow melting. More friction on the road for the tires. Prabhupāda: Wine and cigarettes, just like here you can purchase by slot. What is called? Hari-śauri: Machine. Prabhupāda: Machine. Yes. You pay and get cigarette and tin can. There are many boxes like that on the street, public street. And they pass urine on the road. There is no restriction, standing apart. Hari-śauri: Like dogs and cats. Prabhupāda: Every few steps, there is a shop, young girls, wine, and a man is sitting. Hari-śauri: Germany is very famous for its beer festivals. Germany. It's very famous for it's beer festivals. Prabhupāda: Beer. Yes. Sadānanda told me. He was drinking beer in barrels. (laughs) He told me. Hari-śauri: They even have a mug so big that it takes one gallon of beer at a time. Prabhupāda: And they drink. Hari-śauri: Yes. It's possible in the summer season, one of the big tourist attraction is to go to these big beer festivals. And you can go, they last about a fortnight, one week or a fortnight, and you can travel down the Rhine Valley and move every week to a new beer festival, like that, all through the summer. It's a big tourist thing. (end) *Room Conversation-*-June 18, 1976, Toronto Prabhupāda: If we say all these things, they will cut my head. (laughs) Therefore I don't say in the public meeting all these things. But it is actually dog's life(?). No value. Actually, no value. We cannot give any value to this type of civilization, running like dog with car. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember in South Africa though, Prabhupāda, you called them, (laughs) at every meeting, dogs and cats. And afterward they were always applauding. (claps) Hari-śauri: He did that, (laughing) you did that in South India as well. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think that... Prabhupāda: No, no, when I come into emotion, I cannot check to speak the truth. But actually it is the fact. I cannot give any credit to these rascals (laughs) who are running at high speed, big, big car. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What did we read? There was an article about Mars today. Hari-śauri: Oh. Nonsense. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The scientists, again... *Hari-śauri: They were speculating about.... They sent this spaceship to Mars, and they were speculating that maybe now the so*-called smog that covers the surface of the planet, it could be fog. It could be made of ice and water particles. So now they..., so they were speculating like that. And then they said they were going to land the spaceship in a valley at a certain point that is four miles deep and that may..., it may have been filled with water fifty thousand years ago, and it could have fossils in it from the type of life that existed there, if it existed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fifty thousand years ago. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Scientist rascal. How ludicrous. Simply "maybe," "if it was" and "it will be." That's all. Simply "maybe." Hari-śauri: Yes. They were speculating about, even they didn't know what the atmosphere was, and yet they know, yet they were stating that they were going to land this spaceship at a certain point just below the Martian equator in a valley which is just at the mouth of the valley, which is four miles deep. Prabhupāda: And people are taking, "Oh, it is scientific research." Hari-śauri: They are such rascals. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This cheating has to stop. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This cheating has to be stopped. Hari-śauri: And actually, on the same page, what was that, the percentage scientists are engaged in warfare? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Forty percent of all the scientists in the world, the estimate is, are engaged in making weapons. And it said that since the end of World War II, six trillion dollars, which is six thousand billion dollars, have been spent on armament in the world. Hari-śauri: In the West. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The West, did it say? *Prabhupāda: In India, no money. They can't.... (laughs) They have no sufficient money to eat even. Still they are spending more than fifty percent, fifty*-four percent. *Hari-śauri: They estimate there's four hundred thousand so*-called scientists working on armament. Prabhupāda: Working on? Hari-śauri: Armament. Weapons. Weapon development. Defense. They call it defense measures. Prabhupāda: Just see. Why defense? Man to man. That means they are dogs. The dogs defend from another dog. Is it not? As soon as they see another dog, (growls) yow, yow, yow. So then where is the defense between man to man? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're worried now that they won't be able to disarm, the article was saying, because, somehow or another, there's going to be a disaster unless there is immediate disarmament. But they don't think it's possible. Prabhupāda: No. How they can disarm? They have been trained up like dogs to bark and fight. How there can be disarmament? Hari-śauri: They've been talking about disarmament for who knows how long. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: They've been talking about disarmament for years and years together. But they're simply increasing. There's no disarmament. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even within the different religions they are fighting amongst each other. Prabhupāda: No, no. This religion is also bogus. How the dogs can understand religion? It is simply woax. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Simply? Prabhupāda: Woax, woax, what is called? Woax? Hari-śauri: Wasp? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like a bee? *Prabhupāda: No, no. Colossal woax. H*-o-a-x. Find out this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: H? *Prabhupāda: H*-o-a-x. Hari-śauri: Hoax. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hoax! Joke. Hari-śauri: Everything's just a bluff. Just a show. Prabhupāda: Hoax, yes. *Hari-śauri: Rubber*-stamping Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hoax means "to deceive, take in, sometimes by way of joke; humorous or mischievous deception." *Prabhupāda: Vibhrama, the Sanskrit is vibhrama*-milita-kriyā. The ārambha, ārambha means endeavor. Very gorgeous. The result is sand and rocks. Going to the moon planet, the ārambha was so much expensive. And the result is to bring some sand and rocks. This is hoax. And another: parvatān muṣakodbhavaḥ. Hoax. There was a great advertisement that the Himalayan mountain is going to deliver a child. So people gathered on, to see, "Oh, such a big mountain. The child must be a very big child." So they went to see there, and they saw one rat is coming from the hole of.... A rat is coming. They expected another Himalayan mountain, and they saw from the holes, one rat is coming. This is going on. And they are satisfied. "Now the Himalaya has delivered the child." One rat. (laughs) This attempt is like Himalayas begetting a child. If some elephant would have come, it would have saved the..., not even elephant, one rat. And in English, another is, "Much ado about nothing." Hari-śauri: Shakespeare. Prabhupāda: Yes. The result is nothing. What is the meaning of "ado"? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Endeavor. Prabhupāda: Endeavor. Yes. So these things are like that. Not sober. Dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. They are not sober. Adhīra. Therefore they meet with so many accidents. You also. As soon as we're in the car, he wants to drive at a hundred miles speed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think it was token punishment, but I'm sorry if you were in the car. Prabhupāda: (laughs) What is the use? You are not going to serve anyone that we have to go high speed. We can go comfortably. Hari-śauri: We can make our own pace. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara also. He was driving seventy*-five. And what you are doing? What is that? This country, Portland. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oregon? From Eugene to Oregon. Prabhupāda: Oregon, yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I was in the car with you in the back seat. Prabhupāda: Oh, you were in the car? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They all fell asleep. I was chanting. You were sitting, you didn't even go to sleep that night (laughs). Even though it was late at night, it was about eleven, twelve, one o'clock at night, you didn't want to stay at that bhogī yogi house. I remember that. And he drove very, very fast back to Portland. That was a very nice engagement. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That was Śyāmasundara's father's car. So he's a good driver, (laughter) but very dangerous driver. I do not know, Śyāmasundara, his father is a rich man, lawyer, got good estate and he's the only son. He did not like to stay with father. Hari-śauri: No one in the West likes to stay with their parents. Prabhupāda: Two sisters, very beautiful girls. They're unhappy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're unhappy? Prabhupāda: Yes. His two sisters. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I heard he was preaching to them. At least one of them that came to the temple that time. She came to that program. Prabhupāda: She first of all came in London. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: She was piano player. Prabhupāda: Anyway, they're artists. They're artists. They're not happy. Divorced. His mother is very gentle, I have seen. Father is also respectable man. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Family life in the West is disastrous. Prabhupāda: The father wants to get them back at home, but they don't.... The father is also taking pills for sleeping. (laughs) Father is also not happy. Hari-śauri: That's the thing. In the West, even though the opulence is there, the children can see the parents are not happy. The parents are always full of anxiety. So even though the parents want the children to stay at home, the children they resent that, because they can see that "You have nothing to offer. It's just a facade." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't want to become like their parents. They don't see that their parents are a desirable example to follow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Wine and sex. They see from childhood. One boy, Rancor, so his father and mother divorced and he was young child. He was the first child of his mother. And the mother, he said, would daily bring a new friend. So he could understand. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A new woman. Prabhupāda: Not new woman, his mother, he was under the care of mother. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, mother had new husbands, new boyfriends. Prabhupāda: Daily night. And he was shocked. One of my Gauḍīya Maṭha Godbrothers, big, he became the head of this Bhag Bazaar Gauḍīya Maṭha. So his wife was debauched, and she was bringing new paramour, and the child protested. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: New? Prabhupāda: Paramour. And the boy, he was ten years or twelve years old, he could understand: "Who is this man?" So he protested and said, "I shall tell all these things to my father." And he was killed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The boy was killed? Prabhupāda: By the mother. Hari-śauri: She murdered him? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Killed means given poison. And the father, that is, my Godbrother, seeing this, he also took poison. This is the end of Gauḍīya Maṭha scandal. He was also one of the trustees. This Tīrtha Mahārāja was a trustee, and another Godbrother and this man. In the beginning, they were made trustees. In the beginning, Prabhupāda was to undergo surgical operation. So he was a little nervous, that "I may die." So he made a scrap paper, that "In case I die, these three disciples will be trustees of the Gauḍīya Maṭha Institute." That's all. So this Kuñja Bābu kept this. There are many long histories. So one of the so*-called trustees was this Vāsudeva. So he died, his end was like this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His son was killed, isn't it? Prabhupāda: His wife was a regular prostitute, and she killed her child, and on this shock, he took poison and died. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He killed himself, oh. *Prabhupāda: Naturally, he became shocked, that "This is my family life*-the wife is prostitute and son is killed. What is the value of my life?" This was his spiritual realization. Just see. (laughs) And he was made the chief, and one of the supporter was Śrīdhara Mahārāja. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vāsudeva Śrīdhara? Prabhupāda: No, no. He was made chief. Guru Mahārāja did not make him chief. But after his passing away, some of our Godbrothers voted him chief. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Am I mis...? You had told me once, I'm not certain. Maybe I made a mistake. You said that Vāsudeva, it was known fact that he was homosex? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vāsudeva. Prabhupāda: He was homosex and sex, everything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in this city.... I haven't been back in so many years to America. Things have become more degraded. I'm watching women and women walking arm around each other. And I asked, "What is this?" "Oh," he says "they are lesbians." Women together, girlfriends. They don't mix with men. Prabhupāda: This is now very much prevalent in America. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No higher consciousness. Prabhupāda: I had one disciple, she was for that purpose (?), yes. Satsvarūpa: So one professor is already here. Prabhupāda: Let him come. Satsvarūpa: This is Shivaram. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Should I turn this light on? Prabhupāda: Yes. You also sit down. Note down. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I want to get the newspapers that you wanted. [break] Prabhupāda: What can I do? (laughs) Jayādvaita: I'll speak to Rāmeśvara and see if we can do something to publish it. [break] Prabhupāda: I began with these men are running in car and the dog is running on leg, where is the difference. His running by car is his advancement of civilization. They are taking running by car, never mind the passenger is a dog. (laughter) But the passenger is running on car, a dog, therefore he's a dog. Jayādvaita: They use these cars for running after women. Prabhupāda: That is the same thing. Just like dog runs after. Hari-śauri: What will the program be? Won't Prabhupāda speak down there also? Prabhupāda: What is speaking? Hari-śauri: I'll just see if everything is ready. (end) *Morning Walk Conversation-*-June 20, 1976, Toronto Prabhupāda: To live like them, to dance with them, to dress like them, to smoke like them, to stand like them. (laughter) Hari-śauri: Baḍa? That means? *Prabhupāda: Baḍa sāb. Baḍa sāb*-big master. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sāheb or sāb? Prabhupāda: The word is sāheb, but short cut, sāb. [break] (indistinct) No. *Hari-śauri: No, he's show*-biz, show-business. (long break) Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa, good morning. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) This modern civilization. (Hindi) nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛ-loke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. Don't be hogs. Be human being. This is hog civilization. (Hindi) Sex. Don't care whether he's mother, sister or brother. No, no. This is going on. (long conversation in Hindi with Indians) (new sequence in car) *Satsvarūpa: [break] ...that we have to stick to the tradition. Tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt. Then.... Not just by mystical devotion. *Prabhupāda: There is no proper guide. They manufacture ideas, that's all. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2], that path is not there. [break] ...name? I forgot Satsvarūpa: Gene. Prabhupāda: Gene. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: [break] ...building or something... Viśvakarmā: Yes, it's a very big exhibit, scientific achievements. [break] ...come and see it. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...their achievement, no more death? As soon as you ask this question, matte kara heṭ. Baḍo baḍo baḍo badora(?) baro baro pet laṅkā diṅgaya matte karo heṭ. "Big, big monkey, big, big, belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." What scientific advancement? Do you think there will be no more death? Matte kore heṭ: (?)"Yes, we are trying." Answer them, "What is your achievement?" All achievement will be, remain in your back and you'll have to die. So what you have done, insurance, that you'll enjoy this? You'll be kicked out of the scene at any moment. What you have done for this? What is the answer? Mattaḥ kore heṭ "Yes, we are trying." (laughter) Nonsense, you are trying. And we have to see this nonsense. We are not so fool. And if they say, "What you are doing?" "Yes, we are doing that. How to conquer over death." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti, mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. That is we are trying. That is real scientific. And what is method? Very simple: man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mām evaiśyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.65]. "Without any doubt, he comes to Me." This is science. Why shall I waste time? Svarūpa Dāmodara challenged one scientist in California that "If I give you the chemicals, can you manufacture life?" He said, "That I cannot say." What you have spoken all this nonsense? Mattaḥ kore heṭ. And when there is challenge, mattaḥ kore heṭ. Otherwise, baro baro bagara, baro baro phet, big, big monkey, big, big belly. And when the real question is there, mattaḥ kore het. Ceylon jumping, melancholy. Hanumān jumped over the ocean, so other monkeys, they also become very proud: "I am..., Hanumān is our leader, we can...," "Can you jump over Ceylon?" Mattaḥ het. [break] ...speak all these things, Indian villagers, they will immediately believe. One cobbler.... I think I narrated this story. Nārada Muni was going to Vaikuṇṭha. Did I say that? *Hari-śauri: I think this story's in Rāja*-vidyā, that small book. The one about the brāhmaṇa and the cobbler? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Cobbler immediately believed when he was informed by Nārada Muni that "I saw God is pulling one elephant through the hole of a needle, this side and again this side." The brāhmaṇa did not believe it. And as soon as the cobbler, he was also devotee, oh, he began to pray, "Oh, my Lord can do anything." Nārada Muni, "You believed it?" "Yes, why not?" "How do you believe it?" "I am daily seeing. I am underneath the tree, and so many figs are dropping, and each fig has got thousands of seeds, and in each seed there is another tree. Why should I not believe it?" He did not believe it blindly. With reason, and he gave immediately reason: "When I see this fig tree, big fig tree, and there are millions of figs dropping, and in each fig there are millions of seeds, and each seed there is.... Why shall I not believe it?" God, nothing is impossible by God, everything. Satsvarūpa: The brāhmaṇa was supposed to be learned in the *Vedas*. *Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. And he said, "These are all...," what is called? Mythology. Why mythology? Why do you think God like you? God is all*-powerful; *He can do anything. That is real faith. That means you have no faith. "If God can do which tallies with my activities, then I shall believe." What you are? Nonsense. This is their general argument. How we can believe this? And why not believe this? You are seeing so many wonderful things. I gave this example to another man, that there is a coconut tree. Now find out where is the pipe and pumping so that the water is pushed. Show me. You have no idea that such a high height, how water is going there. And full of water. How the water is transferred there? Show me the pipe and pump. You have got the idea, that with pipe and pump we can raise the water. Where is that pipe and pump? Show me. Every day, every moment, we are seeing so many wonderful things. How you are thinking.... "I am Dr. Frog. Pacific Ocean may be four feet. All right, five feet. Make compromise, ten feet." (laughter) Rascal. If you think for many millions of years, then you'll have no solution. Panthās tu koṭi-śata*-vatsara-sampragamyo [Bs. 5.34]. It is not possible in that way. They have no idea of God. Hari-śauri: Everything is there, but actually they don't see. *Prabhupāda: Because they are not devotee. Paśyanti jñāna*-cakṣuṣā. Mām ebhyaḥ param, mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ parama-avyayam. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. They have no knowledge. Satsvarūpa: They think that if they follow, they'll still be misled. "Why should I believe? It may not be true." *Prabhupāda: But you are already misled. Why not be second time misled? You are already misled, thousand times. Why not try once more. You are making so much arrangement to live comfortably, but you are kicked out. Are you not misled? Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. You are thinking that by adjustment of this external energy, you will be able to live very happily. Is it possible? You are trying, problem after problem, problem after problem. So you are already misled. Satsvarūpa: You've said, "Just give this one life to Kṛṣṇa. You've misgambled so many lives. Why not give one to Kṛṣṇa?" *Prabhupāda: You are misled already so many lives. All right, be misled another life. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Hari-śauri: They're taking a photo today for the BTG, so they'd like if you would pose for five minutes. Prabhupāda: Why not? (end) *Conversation in Airport and Car-*-June 21, 1976, Toronto Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...Chapter, *This is the dharma, and Kṛṣṇa comes personally to establish it. And He makes distinction in the Fourth Chapter, dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, abhyutthānam adharmasya [Bg. 4.7]. He distinguishes between adharma and dharma. And He's establishing at the end of Ninth Chapter that the dharma is to become His devotee, to think of Him, to worship Him and to offer all obeisances to Him. And that persons who reject this dharma or who have no information of this dharma, they have to revolve in the cycle of birth and death, not achieving Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: The beginning is to understand this transmigration. But actually people do not understand. Cycle of birth and death, if one does not understand what is birth and death, what he'll understand of cycle of birth and death? Mostly because they do not understand what is birth and what is death, they are mostly going on on the bodily concept of life. That is animal life. Ask anybody. Bodily concept. And everything is going on. We pass through Canada to USA. Why Canada? Why USA? This bodily concept. It is meant for the Canadians, it is meant for USA, Americans. Immigration, customs, the same mentality as a dog coming from other neighborhood. The other dogs, they all come together, "Yow, yow, why you have come, why you have come?" In civilized dress only. This is the position. What is the difference between the dog's mentality... When another dog comes to another neighborhood, these neighborhood dogs, you know that? All animals: "Yow, why you have come?" So this department, "Why you have come here?" dogs barking, and this immigration, what is the difference? Is there any difference? This is our policy. Very difficult. [break] ...they will understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Their mentality is not better than the animals. Hari-śauri: It's probably a lot worse. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Worse, because animal has got some limit, but a human being who has developed consciousness, it is unlimited. Just like a thief is thief, but when an attorney*-at-law is a thief, he's a very big thief. Huh? Hari-śauri: When a man's educated to know the difference... Prabhupāda: Ordinary thief and educated thief. In your country there are many lawyers. Their only business is how to cheat. Hari-śauri: Every lawyer. Because they're trying to make money as well, only they're in a better position. Prabhupāda: Big, big lawyers, through this real estatement. I have got bitter experience. People go to real estate man, he has got, say, five thousand dollars, and he wants to purchase one hundred thousand worth property. And they'll say, "Yes. We shall arrange." He will, in such a way, implicate, that he will take this five thousand dollars, and it will be divided amongst them. He will not give anything. Hari-śauri: We lost quite a bit of property in Detroit because of that lawyer of Ambarīṣa's. That lawyer of Ambarīṣa's, when they did the Detroit deal, they said they lost quite a bit of movable property because the lawyer did a deal with the real estate agent to take it away for himself. He got that boat very cheap, and other things also. Prabhupāda: Lawyer is thief, medical man is thief. Hari-śauri: All thieves. They're all thieves. Prabhupāda: Then whom to believe? Whom to believe, this is the question. Hari-śauri: The general public, they are becoming very bitter, very frustrated, because they can't turn to anyone for protection anymore. The government is the biggest thief. *Prabhupāda: Dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ. It is stated that all government men will be rogues and thieves. Rājanyair dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Rājanyaiḥ means government men, and dasyu-dharma means practiced to roguery, thieves. Hari-śauri: American police are well known for being corrupt. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. In India. Police means everyone takes, first of all (indistinct). Viśvakarmā: They can be saved only by your mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and the mercy of Lord Caitanya. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa only you are saved. Otherwise, our Bombay construction was rejected by the police constable, that kīrtana is nuisance. Public servant, he can say, blaspheme a religious system, Bhagavad*-gītā, in the same country, Bhagavad-gītā. And India is condemning now, government men: "Kīrtana is nuisance." Hari-śauri: Temporarily, at least, it seems the demons are very powerful. *Prabhupāda: They will become powerful. And people will be less intelligent*-means less God conscious. Just like when the king is weak, thieves and rogues, they flourish. Hari-śauri: So we just have to be very strong and uncompromising. Prabhupāda: How you can compromise with thieves and rogues? Boarding time? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The flight leaves at 5:05. They'll call. They'll call when it's time. The plane doesn't appear to be here just yet. Prabhupāda: Although they are poor, still they can understand it easily, very easily, that you are not this body; there is God; if you don't become devotee, you'll remain in this material world. These things they will immediately understand. Hari-śauri: How is it that, say, obviously they must be backed by very great pious activity, but somehow or other, they... Prabhupāda: Therefore they have taken birth in India. Hari-śauri: Is that special mercy that they seem to be impoverished? Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: Is that special arrangement that they seem to be impoverished? Say like the villagers, they're not very wealthy, or, uh... Prabhupāda: That is due to misgovernment. There is no king; all rogues and thieves are in the government. Mismanagement. It is the government duty to see that everyone is doing nicely so that they can live peacefully, happily. There must be direction. Just like parentless children. Nobody is to take care; they'll be wretched. So India's position is like that. The parentless children. There is no good government. And they supply this control wheat that is not even touchable. Unfit for human consumption. There is a worm... Hari-śauri: Control wheat? Prabhupāda: Yes. They purchase from here and there all rejected wheat, and they supply it. There is no ghee, no milk, no proper food grain. Everything black market. Any necessary commodity you cannot have in the open market; you have to purchase in black market. Just like for the building purpose, cement. In your country you can purchase any amount of it. You cannot purchase. You have to purchase black market, and that cement also mixed with some... What is that? And unless you give some bribe, it is not possible. [break] Viśvakarmā: ...for the balcony in the church in the other room? How can we... (announcement being made) Prabhupāda: ...fit for sitting. That is very nice. And next time when I come the seat should be just Deity altar, so that all balcony can see. Viśvakarmā: Seat should be? Prabhupāda: My seat should be near the altar of the Deity. *Hari-śauri: The vyāsāsana. Like in Los Angeles, at the side? On the left*-hand side? *Prabhupāda: Not left*-hand side. Just like you are facing Deity and there are spaces here. Viśvakarmā: Between the doors. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Viśvakarmā: Which side, Śrīla Prabhupāda? On the left*-hand side or the right-hand side of the Deity, facing towards the altar? Prabhupāda: Any side. Viśvakarmā: Any side? How far away from the front? In the middle so that they can see from the balcony as well. (child calls out) Prabhupāda: Yes. Prabhupāda? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sounded like it. Hari-śauri: Sounded like it. I don't think it could have been though. Not a devotee. Prabhupāda: Child is... Devotee: Could be Buffalo. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, it's not. I see the child. Devotee: He'll have the same benediction as Ajāmila. (child calls out "Prabhupāda") Prabhupāda: He knows me. [break] Devotee: Should there be a canopy over top of the vyāsāsana? Prabhupāda: No, no canopy. [break] ...to fly to our New Vrindaban? How long it takes? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I asked Kīrtanānanda. He said about one hour, twenty, twenty*-five minutes. (break-new sequence in car) Prabhupāda: Let us see what is the reception. [break] We have come from a different way. From Buffalo. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, you had to come from Buffalo. [break] ...take to get to Buffalo? Prabhupāda: Three hours. Hari-śauri: No, only about an hour and a half. Prabhupāda: Hour and half? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, no. Kīrtanānanda: To the airport from Toronto? Hari-śauri: From leaving Toronto, we left one o'clock, and we arrived at, it was about two hours. We arrived just after three. Kīrtanānanda: Some devotees were there from Buffalo? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. [break] Kīrtanānanda: ...had a very nice place for you. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. [break] People are being kept in such an ignorant way that they do not care about sinful activities. They can do anything for sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Actually, there is no advancement of civilization. They are thinking, they are running on four*-wheel motorcar, and the dog is running on four legs. What is the quality change? This is going on in the name of civilization, and people are kept in ignorance. Where is the advancement? Running by motorcar is advancement? They have no knowledge that there is next life, and "Today I am running on Ford car, tomorrow I may have to run like dog on four legs." Kīrtanānanda: They do not think like that. *Prabhupāda: So this is ignorance, this is ignorance. And they are kept, the whole world*-the state, the father, the guardian, everyone, the priest. Everyone is ignorant. Dull-headed ignorant. And they are passing on as philosopher, scientist, religious leader. [break] ...hard to bring them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Taking these few years, fifty years or sixty years living here, and dance like dog and finish. There is no life. You die peacefully or (indistinct). And not dying peacefully, they cry. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: How to save them is very difficult. *Prabhupāda: Simply chant. This is the only. Give them chance to come and chant with us, take prasāda. Then after few days or few months, let them understand Bhagavad*-gītā. Devotee: We have all got this experience. *Prabhupāda: You have all got this experience. This is the only way. I started this movement on this determination, that they have nothing to give, simply by propaganda they are exacting so many people and befooling them. And I'll give them prasāda, nice chanting, and they will not come? They must come. This was my determination. And I began with this. So this is the only way. Give them chance "No talk, please come. Chant and dance with us and take kṛṣṇa*-prasāda and go home." Kīrtanānanda: I think it was just ten years ago when I first met you. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I never said that "You have to give up this, you have to do this." Never said. Then gradually ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. When the heart becomes cleansed, then little. There is no hopelessness. So many people have come, and they are coming. Both black, white, everyone is coming. There is no question of (indistinct). But you cannot expect that cent percent people will come; *that is not possible. But even, even one-fourth percent people come to this, then it will be successful. Compared to the American population, what percentage we have got? Still they have made some impression, the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Literatures are selling, they are appreciating, learned circle. Takes some time, but if we stick to our principles and do not make any compromise and push on*-in this way, I have given you instruction, it will never stop; *it will go on. It will never stop. At least for ten thousand years it will go on. That is your... (indistinct) And this movement is meant for these fourth*-class, fifth-class, tenth-class men. Not this movement is fourth class, fifth class. They are so fallen that they cannot be counted even third class, fourth class-tenth-class of men. Deliver them. Patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's incarnation is for delivering these classes of men. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never meant to start this movement for high-class brāhmaṇas, sages, saintly persons-no. This class of men. For the all fallen. Don't be disappointed, go on, go on. Stick to the principles. When there was no response, I did not know where to live, where to eat. Sometimes at Dr. Mishra's, sometimes with some friend somewhere. Where to live. And I was going to inquire the shipping company when the next ship returning to India. Still I was renewing my visa: "Let us hope. Let us hope." In this way, we started Second Avenue in month of July, I think? Kīrtanānanda: June or July. Prabhupāda: Yes, June or July, yes, June. Then Hayagrīva and Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, they came first. Before that, Mukunda came. Hari-śauri: He's the oldest devotee? Mukunda? He's the oldest devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. There were others, they have left. That Mr. Green. Kīrtanānanda: Jagannātha dāsa. I think you named him Jagannātha. *Prabhupāda: And Ravīndra*-svarūpa. Kīrtanānanda: Carl, Carl. Prabhupāda: Carl, yes. He has left. Washington directly? This road? Kīrtanānanda: Not Washington, D.C., this is Washington, Pennsylvania. Prabhupāda: This is Pennsylvania state? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. The girls were saying that today at the airport was the most demoniac day they ever had. Prabhupāda: Eh? Kīrtanānanda: Today was the most demoniac day at the airport they've ever had. They're getting very, very nasty. Every time they talked to someone, they come up and they say, "Don't take it. Don't take it. They're ripping you off. They're 'Moon' people." Prabhupāda: "Moon people"? What is that? *Kīrtanānanda: You know there's a lot of publicity right now about this Korean so*-called spiritual master, Moon. Hari-śauri: We just read one article in the U.S. News, shows a picture, that man it describes. Kīrtanānanda: It is causing a big stir, these "Moon" people. He has just bought the hotel in New York for five millions dollars. Prabhupāda: He is also against our movement? Kīrtanānanda: Well, I wouldn't say..., he never says anything about our movement. But they are equating us with him. The public is sometimes equating us with him and these other rascals. He claims that Jesus Christ never lived to fulfill his mission, which was to establish the perfect family. They killed him before he got married. So he has come, and he has all these wives. At least he used to, all his, whenever any of his disciples would get married, first he would have their wife. Prabhupāda: And they're doing that? (laughs) Kīrtanānanda: People cannot distinguish between what is true and what is bogus. [break] Prabhupāda: ...sophistication. [break] ...reminds me of a place in Germany. Heidelburg. Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like New Vrindaban? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, you'll find so many places in this country named... This probably was originally a settlement of German people. [break] I don't know. It was a chemical plant. *Prabhupāda: These things are not required at all, but they have created. They are called anartha, unnecessarily diverting valuable attention of the human being to waste their time and energy and next life become a dog. That they do not know. This science is unknown to them. They'll believe, "This life finished, everything finished. That's all." [break] ...is working. That they do not know. Life is eternal, and how they are under the cycle of birth and death, nothing. Yāvad jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet.(?) Cārvāka philosophy. So long you live, live happily. But actually they are not living happily. To work in this factory is not happy. They are not happy men. But they are thinking they are happy. Just like the hog eating stool, he is happy. This is gross ignorance. Actually, therefore, there is revolt against these capitalist. There is another unhappiness. Now there is strike. So where is happiness? If there is happiness, why there is strike? Why there is so many strikes? Why there is protest? There is no happiness. But they are thinking... Whole thing is based on ignorance, māyā. Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje. And the direct method for subduing these anarthas, unnecessary troubles-bhakti-yoga. There is no other. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasya ajānataḥ [SB 1.7.6]. People do not know it. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Therefore Vyāsadeva, most learned scholar, he has made this Bhāgavatam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣāt. [break] I was translating the Bhāgavata, Eighth Canto, Twelfth Chapter. Hari-śauri: How many chapters is there? *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-four. Half-finished, half-finished, Eighth Canto. Kīrtanānanda: What is Eighth Canto like? What does Eighth Canto contain? Prabhupāda: Eighth Canto? Churning of the ocean and producing nectar, and the demons they did not receive the nectar. There was fight. Hari-śauri: And the story of Gajendra as well? Prabhupāda: Gajendra, that is I think Seventh Canto, no? Hari-śauri: Beginning of the Eighth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gajendra also. Hari-śauri: That means four parts. That means four books for the Eighth Canto. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: Each volume is more wonderful. Each volume... Prabhupāda: Aḥ? Oh, yes. There is no comparison of this literature. Kīrtanānanda: I think before you came, *Bhāgavatam* was unknown. Prabhupāda: Unknown, yes. The Ramakrishna Mission published one *Bhāgavatam* commentary. You know that? Farce. They, these Ramakrishna Mission people have done the greatest harm to the Vedic culture. Of course it is not taken very seriously, Ramakrishna Mission. Hari-śauri: Not in the West. Prabhupāda: But they publicized in India that they have made all, everyone In India they were doing like that. "Vivekananda Road," "Vivekananda Square," and rascals, they do not inquire even what is Vivekananda's contribution. Pradulika(?) prabhāva. Hari-śauri: You made a good point about why although now thousands of American boys and girls are coming to India, no one is going to the Ramakrishna Mission, so what kind of impact has he had? Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana they have got hospital and Ramakrishna temple. Who is going there? This is practical example. In our temple, thousands and thousands of foreign boys and girls are coming, and who is going there? It is because actually, if they did something, they should at least gone there out of inquisitiveness: "Oh, where is Vivekananda?" Nobody going. Not even to pass urine there. (laughter) [break] Kīrtanānanda: That Japanese tape recorder. *Prabhupāda: And Hichai is, this is called Hichai? That is "hitchhike," and this is Hitch*-hi. Hari-śauri: Hitachi. Prabhupāda: Hitachi, yes. This is a church? Kīrtanānanda: No, this is an institution, state institution for old people or mental home. I forget. "Western State School." [break] Prabhupāda: ...Hayagrīva. Kīrtanānanda: I think he's in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Kīrtanānanda: I'm trying to get him to bring his boy to New Vrindaban. He's down there with those meat*-eaters. Prabhupāda: She is not agreeable? I think that she is not very well treated by her husband. Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Therefore... Otherwise, she is a good girl. Kīrtanānanda: Hayagrīva's very (indistinct). Prabhupāda: I know she is a good girl. He has disrupted his family also. Kīrtanānanda: If a devotee doesn't follow the principles, then he is sure to suffer. Nothing can be gained in his family life. Prabhupāda: I thought that he is happy in family life. His father and mother came to congratulate him. Kīrtanānanda: He was better in Los Angeles when I saw him last week than I've seen him in a long time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: He never lost his sentiment for you. Prabhupāda: No, that I know. Therefore I like. Kīrtanānanda: But he's addicted to his bad habits. Prabhupāda: He'll be corrected. There is no hopelessness. Kīrtanānanda: I've always felt that, but it makes it difficult to live with him in the meantime. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam [Ādi 17.21]. Is that railway line? No. [break] There are some roads in Los Angeles (indistinct) That is America. Everywhere. Kīrtanānanda: Big cars and big roads. Prabhupāda: Opulence. Hari-śauri: America seems to be one big highway. Prabhupāda: They have got cars and they have got roads also. Very good. That's all right. But why they should give up the real business of life? Hari-śauri: I don't think it's so much that they gave it up; they didn't ever know what it was. Prabhupāda: There was no preaching. There was no education on this subject. The Christian priests, they are unable to... Kīrtanānanda: They have no knowledge themselves. How they can teach? Hari-śauri: They are all giving up out of hopelessness themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are now asking... In Melbourne the priest asked me, "Swamiji, why Christian religion is dwindling? What we have done?" I told them, "What you have not done?" (laughs) They were little insulted. Hari-śauri: That first time you visited that monastery, the man that was in charge, the head monk there, after you had visited, a short while later he left and he went to India looking for enlightenment. Prabhupāda: Perhaps it was some shock when I said that "What you have not done?" They received me very well. [break] *Kīrtanānanda: Altogether about an hour and half. About forty*-five minutes more. Prabhupāda: What is being done with Hayagrīva's house? Kīrtanānanda: I bought that from him. There are a few devotees there right now. Prabhupāda: No, the other house. Kīrtanānanda: Which one? The original farm? Prabhupāda: No, not original. Kīrtanānanda: That's the one I'm talking about. Prabhupāda: Tulasī? Kīrtanānanda: No, they're just wild flowers. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Hari-śauri: Very fragrant. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Kīrtanānanda: There's plenty of milk and ghee. Prabhupāda: This is human food. They do not know how to eat, the Westerners. [break] Kīrtanānanda: ...ever eat these nice foods they give up so much sinful activity, very easily. Prabhupāda: Hm? Kīrtanānanda: By just eating nice foods they can give up so much sinful activity. Prabhupāda: Who has made them? Kīrtanānanda: Different devotees, mother Lakhima, mother (indistinct). Hari-śauri: Combined effort. Kīrtanānanda: Tamāla has said that there's only one other place in the US now that has Vedic cooking. [break] Prabhupāda: Facility to get enough ghee. Hari-śauri: Fresh vegetables, everything. [break] Kīrtanānanda: ...Indians come and they always say, "Who has taught you to cook like this?" We tell them, "Śrīla Prabhupāda has taught us everything." Prabhupāda: (indistinct) [break] Many Indians come? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. [break] ...membership program now. Hari-śauri: There were about three or four hundred Indians came to the feast yesterday. No, not yesterday, on Sunday. Prabhupāda: Six hundred. Hari-śauri: Six hundred. Kīrtanānanda: In Toronto? Hari-śauri: Yes, very big turnout. Big turnout also in Detroit. Same in Detroit. I never realized there were so many Indians all over the world. Prabhupāda: Generally, they are engaged in education. Hari-śauri: I know in England they all have responsible jobs. Doctors and like that. Prabhupāda: There are many medical practitioners. I have, I learned that British people, they like Indian physicians. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, they're very popular. Prabhupāda: They have got faith that these people treat carefully. One civil surgeon(?) is a Bengali in London. Civil surgeon(?). You have heard this Aurabindo? His father was a medical practitioner in England, and he was born there. Hari-śauri: His mother was Indian also or...? No. [break] Prabhupāda: Indian families, they are living for two, three generation. [break] ...teaching them how to make home comfortable, they'll be trained up to become prostitutes. How to kill time. [break] Hari-śauri: I think Tamāla was saying in New York they need good cooks there. Tamāla was saying that in New York they don't have very good cooks there. Prabhupāda: Nowhere there is good cook except here. (laughter) Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is good cook. Hari-śauri: He's trained everybody up very nicely. Kīrtanānanda: Prabhupāda knows how to flatter. Well, I think even we could not cook so good in Boston or New York. Without being in Vṛndāvana and the natural ingredients, it is not so... Prabhupāda: You can supply them ghee. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, we can do that. Prabhupāda: You grow podina? Podina? Mint? Mint? Kīrtanānanda: Mint? Yes. Prabhupāda: Chutney. Kīrtanānanda: Mint chutney. How do you make mint chutney? Prabhupāda: I'll teach you. You have got mango? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: I'll teach you. Chili? Kīrtanānanda: They are not ripe yet. The plants are still too small. Prabhupāda: They are not giving chili? Kīrtanānanda: Not yet, it is too early. In August. But I can get. I can get green chili. [break] Prabhupāda: ...something to drink? Kīrtanānanda: No. Hari-śauri: I don't know what happened to that orange juice. Someone else was carrying it. [break] Prabhupāda: ...because it is also nice. Kīrtanānanda: That is your mercy. *Prabhupāda: So this was my dream, that a place should be there where we can get all nice foods, best foods, of milk. Kṛṣṇa is fulfilling our desire. Everything's there. Simply these rascals they do not know how to live or to eat. Everything there. Intelligence is there, everything is there. Simply for want of training they have become rogues. Make them human beings, your countrymen. Everyone should follow the duty. Materially and spiritually. Anyway... Here is very nice. It is a winter season of Kali*-yuga. These months, June, July, August, up to September? Kīrtanānanda: No, actually up to November. The devotees like the winter, though. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kīrtanānanda: It is even more conducive to think of Kṛṣṇa in the winter. Prabhupāda: So the neighbors they like it? Neighborhood men? Kīrtanānanda: Most of them like us. There are a few that don't like us. But they are not violent. They are a little nasty. Prabhupāda: Nasty they have been trained up to be. (Sanskrit) Once trained up nastily, it is very difficult to... Kīrtanānanda: The state police in this local area has become very favorable to us. During that quarantine the state police had to stay here. So they even began to come to ārati. They took our books; they were reading. There's been a lot of change in some of the government. Some of the government men are now much favorable, more understanding. Prabhupāda: Whatever was there, it was due to misunderstanding. Kīrtanānanda: The sheriff is very favorable, the judge. That judge that came to see you last time you were here, he still keeps a picture of you in his desk. Prabhupāda: Oh. Kīrtanānanda: When the palace is finished we will have nice ceremonies, and many of the local dignitaries will come. [break] Prabhupāda: ...begins? Kīrtanānanda: Moundsville is that way about five miles. We are almost to New Vrindaban now. Two miles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Our post office is Moundsville. Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Do you want to go directly to your quarters, or do you want to stop by the temple? Prabhupāda: Yes, temple. Deities open? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then... [break] Actually it is gradually expanding in these quarters. [break] Kīrtanānanda: ...on a local television soon. That will be very good propaganda for us. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is shown? Or no, not yet. Kīrtanānanda: Not yet. Prabhupāda: One thing you have missed: how we are preparing all these foodstuffs. Kīrtanānanda: It was too short. In the movie? It was too short how to prepare it? Prabhupāda: Yes. How from milk in different stages you get this foodstuff, kacuris, śṛṅgāra,(?) sandeśa, rābṛi. And this chānā, if fried, if you prepare nicely with little hing and ginger, then it will exactly taste like meat. They'll forget. If you give them without telling them, they will think that they're eating meat. Kīrtanānanda: Hing and what? Prepare with hing and? Prabhupāda: Ginger. Kīrtanānanda: Ginger. Prabhupāda: They prepare the semiliquid meat like that. You give them little piece and they will not understand that it is not meat. Hari-śauri: When we were in Los Angeles, Pālikā made some baṛā and it tasted... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja wouldn't eat it. He said it tasted too much like fish. Prabhupāda: With urad ḍāl, you can prepare fishy taste. Hari-śauri: Someone told me that your Guru Mahārāja said that. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Anyone who is not taking urad ḍāl, he must be taking fish silently, secretly. [break] Kīrtanānanda: Not on this side, other side. I want to buy that farm there. Prabhupāda: This barn, Vṛndāvana. What is this building? Kīrtanānanda: They are constructing a... I have a big carpenter shop, a construction shop, a printing shop. And upstairs there will be a big hall for Janmāṣṭamī that holds seven, eight hundred people. There is another, that's our guesthouse building we're building there. You can see the top two floors, with the arches. Prabhupāda: What is this? Another barn? Kīrtanānanda: This is an oxbarn here. Prabhupāda: No, this. Kīrtanānanda: That tank? That tank we are making for grain storage. Prabhupāda: Oh, much improvement. (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 21, 1976, Toronto *Indian man: Kṛṣṇa has made lot of things for human beings to enjoy*-the trees and rivers and... *Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic version*-pūrṇam idam [Īśopaniṣad, Invocation], everything is complete. Indian man: It says in the Bible that animals were given to the man for protection and for service, they could take service from the animals. And they think the slaughtering of an animal is all right on that basis, that God gave the animals to the human beings. Prabhupāda: And how intelligent they are. I give you my child for your protection, and you cut his throat. How intelligent you are. That is the proof. Something is given for protection, and they're cutting the throat. This is their intelligence. [break] Indian man: ...the article in Back to Godhead there was a question raised, that "What is purpose of life?" and it was stated that the purpose of life is to realize God. Could you kindly explain a little more on that? *Prabhupāda: That I was explaining last night. Human life is meant for understanding what is the goal of life. The goal of life is to go back to home, back to Godhead. If they do not go back to home, back to Godhead, then remain here, become a tree. Stand, for five thousand years. Sthāvarā lakṣa*-viṁśati. Two millions you have to pass through. And each species, some thousands of years. And such two million. So, how many years? Hmm? Two millions of varieties of vegetables. And each item, if you pass, say hundred years. Then? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Two hundred million. *Prabhupāda: Two hundred millions years only for passing through the vegetables. Then you become insects. That is also 1,100,000. In this way you'll get chance again to become a human being. These rascals are wasting, four*-wheel dog. (laughter) Dogs are four-legged, and we are four-wheeled. That's all. (laughter) Indian man: Śrīla Prabhupāda, everyone has to go through all the 84,000,000 journeys(?), or is that to, like, you know, on his pious or impious karma he might go through only the vegetable class or he might go through only the animal life? Prabhupāda: That will depend on your karma. Indian man (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's one thing in the human nature, that he always thinks that he's the chief and around the world everything is running around him, and most probably he always can show off that "I am the leader of everything." Why is it so? In every person. *Prabhupāda: That is the disease, material disease. That is material disease. Everyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa. Nobody wants to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is material. Kartāham iti manyate. Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā. Rascal bewildered by false egotism, he's thinking "I am everything." That is material life. And when by cultivation of knowledge, good association, you come to the conclusion that "I am not everything, Kṛṣṇa is everything; *I am His servant," then perfection. Otherwise he's in the māyā*-cakra. Indian man (2): Is this related to the past, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That is the material disease. When you contaminate some disease, do not try to find out the history. Treat the disease. That is intelligence. How I got this disease, instead of inquiring, better treat the disease. That is intelligence. Go to the doctor and get treatment and cure it. *Indian man (3): Prabhupāda, karma*-yoga, Kṛṣṇa has said, "Do your duty, look after..." Prabhupāda: But you do not know what is your duty. Indian man (3): Yes, that's what we are trying to... Prabhupāda: Know from Kṛṣṇa what is your duty. Indian man (3): Now, to know this thing, we have to really follow, right? Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, what you are? Then your duty. Are you clerk or ordinary orderly or the director or something, something? Then your duty. But if you do not know what you are, then where is your duty? Indian man (3): But if you know certain things and if you do honesty for Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: That I.... You do not know anything. That is your position. You must know what is your position. Then your duty. Indian man (3): My position you mean in relation to Kṛṣṇa or in relation to the world? *Prabhupāda: No, in relation to the world. In relationship with the world, therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. What is your quality? Then you are classified as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra. Then your duty. First of all you must know what you are, what is your position. Then there is duty. Indian man (1): is it right that if you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all the duties are automatically taken care of? *Prabhupāda: All the duties, the summarization of duty: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ. There are different duties, but the real duty is saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13], whether you have satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll have done all.... Ataḥ pumbhiḥ. Because there are different types of duties. But whatever you do, the success is whether by your duty you have satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful. Indian man (4): Prabhu, how do you regard the detachment idea? Prabhupāda: There is no question of detachment. These are all bogus propaganda. You cannot be detached. Duty does not mean detachment. You have to do your duty. There is attachment. Where is the detachment? These are simply bogus propaganda. There cannot be detachment. Detachment means, real detachment means that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. So you have no proprietorship. That is detachment. If you falsely claim "It is mine," that is attachment, unnecessary. It is not yours. Indian man (4): Should we not move from attachment to detachment gradually, and try to... Prabhupāda: No. You cannot do that. Your attachment has to be purified. Just like this land. The Canadians think "This is my land," but this, when it is purified, it is this land God's land, then it is purified. And so long you falsely claim "It is my land," that is cause of all trouble. Just a minute ago we were talking that in Canada there is so much land, and you told me there is so many fertile. Huh, you told me? But they'll not allow anybody to come. This is wrong position. Why? China or India, there are so many countries overcongested. Let them come. But he's thinking, "It my land." Indian man (1): They pay the money to a farmer not to grow the wheat here. Prabhupāda: Just see. This rascaldom is going on in the name of civilization. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1], they do not know. Everything belongs to God, and are all sons of God. So by God's arrangement there is enough land to live, enough land to produce food. They're misusing. Therefore the whole trouble. Indian man (4): Prabhu, then what that means, what we mean is they should have rsabandutra(?) Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, a rsabandutra(?) means, unless you have got the central point. How we can have? First of all you know Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (4): They must have a common background, common ground whereby you can... Prabhupāda: That they haven't got. Common.... He is trying to become Kṛṣṇa. Everything is rolling around. So this is the mistake. He's trying to become center, that foolish rascal. How he's center? Center is Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (4): So the only hope for humanity is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes, only hope. Therefore this verse I was explaining. *Those who will not take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, these rascal will remain in the cycle of birth and death. Instead of taking Kṛṣṇa's instruction, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], he's trying to become Kṛṣṇa, these rascals. So how there will be peace? Hmm? Kṛṣṇa says "Surrender unto Me." He's saying, "I am Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I surrender?" This is the difficulty. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Sharma, he's our accountant. He works at the University of Toronto. He does all our books here in Toronto to help us. *Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. (Hindi) Gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsa: [Cc. Madhya 13.80] "I'm the servant, servant, servant of the servant of Kṛṣṇa." And these rascals are learning how to become Kṛṣṇa. Just see, it is impossible. (laughs) But they will try for it. (Hindi) Indian man (4): Only one thing I just want to clarify, that under human behavior towards the society, honest behavior toward the society, to help the people, to help the neighbors and like that, try to help... Prabhupāda: First of all, tell me, what is your power to help? You are poor yourself. What you can help? Then why you are talking all... Indian man (4): No, prabhu, supposing if we see... Prabhupāda: You cannot help. First of all, you cannot help. Indian man (4): Right. *Prabhupāda: If you can help, you can simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise you have no power to help. It is all concoction. Vivekananda, for the last hundred years*-daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. He could not do anything. First of all you must know that you have no capacity to help. Indian man (4): Right. That is true, prabhu. Prabhupāda: Then why you propose to help? Indian man (4): No, but prabhu, how far is it fair that if one is religious, say chanting and regulations and everything he is doing, and on the other hand, he doesn't behave as a good honest labor... Prabhupāda: That good honest..., you have got some idea of good honest. But because he's chanting, he's all good. Devotees: Jaya. Indian man (1): Prabhupāda, because he's chanting, sometimes a person get very false ego, that he has become a very big devotee, he's serving the Lord, and he tries to... *Prabhupāda: That's all right, he's on the line of goodness. But those who are not chanting, they're all bad. Do you understand it or not? Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. One who is not a devotee of God, he has no good qualification. You may propose that "I am so much good, I am this, I am that," but it is all bogus thing. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. He's simply concocting in the mind. And so far a devotee's concerned, even you find some defect in him, he's sādhu. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Now I find some defective state. Kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā. These defects will be out very soon. Don't bother. But because he is devotee, he's sādhu. Indian man (4): So you mean to say, prabhu, truthfulness and honesty will come after chanting, chanting, chanting. Prabhupāda: But those who are not devotees, there is no truthfulness at all. Here he has begun truthfulness. But one who is not a devotee, he has no question of truthfulness. He's simply concocting in the mind. Manorathena. And because he's on the mental platform, he'll do all bad things. Indian man (4): Therefore devotee must try to be honest and truthful. *Prabhupāda: Devotee becomes automatically. If he sticks to the devotional principles, he'll become good very soon. Just like he has stopped. Devotee means, just like we say, no illicit sex, no drinking or intoxication, no meat*-eating. So he has adopted this, and chanting. That is perfect. Indian man (4): Prabhu, these things (indistinct) we say. Indian women or even men, those who are in the village life. Well, I don't say all, but most of them, they obey these things right from the very childhood itself. So... Prabhupāda: We are jumping to the village. Indian: Well village is a little bit pure life you know, but in the cities of course people get involved too much in... *Prabhupāda: Pure life, village*-doesn't matter village or city. If you become devotee, then pure life. It is not that because one is living in city, therefore he's polluted, one is living in village, no. Unless one becomes devotee, there is no question of becoming good. Indian man (1): Prabhupāda, there's a very important question in my mind all the time. How a Godbrother should treat the Godbrother with great (indistinct) to produce more love of Godhead and to (indistinct) in them? Prabhupāda: You show example. If other Godbrother is not treating you well, you treat him well. Then it will be right. Why you should deviate, that "This Godbrother is not treating me well, so I shall do also"? Āpani ācari' prabhu jīvera. You treat well. You show the example how to treat his Godbrother. [break] ...Mahāprabhu's teaching, So who is treating me good or bad, I don't want to bother about it. Let me become humbler than the grass, tolerant than the tree, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda, haribol. [break] Prabhupāda: ...nice garden, but if anyone wants to live here, the government will not allow. (laughter) "Go to the mill(?)." Indian man (1): Prabhupāda, a devotee, very often after chanting why they develop very, very high. I see a lot of devotees, they falls down back to the māyā. What is the reason? Prabhupāda: He is not devotee. He's pretending to be devotee. One who is devotee never falls down. There are so many false devotees. He falls down. Devotee (2): Prabhupāda? In 3.4 *Bhāgavatam* Lord Kapiladeva speaks about the feeling of loss, the conditioned soul in the material world when he's identifying with matter. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): Kapiladeva speaks about the feeling of being lost. Is that what the psychologists say is craziness? Prabhupāda: What is that? *Puṣṭa*-Kṛṣṇa: The feeling of being lost. Kapiladeva's instructions? He wants to know if the identification with matter is the same thing as craziness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mūḍha. (Sanskrit) What is that verse? Everyone is working under illusion of māyā, until he comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Indian man (5): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it better for gṛhasthas to be self*-supporting and living outside the temple? Like somebody working all day and following the regulative principles? Prabhupāda: Temple is meant for rendering service to the Lord. So if anyone is rendering service to the Lord, he can live. But not for sense gratification. Those gṛhasthas who still have desire for sense gratification, they may live outside. Indian man (5): What about the gṛhastha's duty toward his family, like looking after his family and children? In India, like when you have a daughter you have to get her married and... Prabhupāda: Yes, when you have accepted family life, you must be responsible to carry out. Not that I become family man all of a sudden I give up everything. No, that is not wanted. But if one is actually advanced, he can give up everything. He has no more duty. Indian man (5): But the question comes up that you have given a vow against fire at the time of marriage that the husband will look after the wife and the family. Then how does that fit in when you leave the family all of a sudden? Is there not a responsibility to... Prabhupāda: No no, not all of a sudden. All of a sudden..., generally you have to discharge the duties of family life, and at the ripe age, when everything is settled up, then you give up the family. Indian man (5): Is it right that all the responsibility should be cleared up before... Prabhupāda: You cannot clear up all the responsibility. Therefore up to fiftieth year. After that, whatever is done, that's all. (Sanskrit) But our philosophy is there is no question of giving up this or taking up that. Simply take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Wherever you remain, it doesn't matter. Either in family life or... Indian man (5): In the vānaprastha āśrama, after fifty years of age, what is the duty? Is it to live in the temple, or devote most of time to Kṛṣṇa, or where the wife comes in then? Prabhupāda: Temple you should live always. Even if in family life, you must come to the temple. Temple worship is for everyone. Indian man (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you wrote a lot of books, and I'm very much concerned about the books. A lot of devotees, they never read the books, but they're doing the chanting. It will progress them without reading the books, because they're the most important... Prabhupāda: But suppose one is illiterate, how he'll read? How he'll read if one is illiterate? That means he has no chance? Because he's illiterate? Chanting is sufficient. *Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is it possible for people in the most animalistic conditions of life such as the Eskimos, who need meat to survive*-is it possible for these people to become purified? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ, śudhyanti [SB 2.4.18]. By the guidance of the spiritual master. Devotee (4): You've already proved that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Devotee (4): We're worse than Eskimos. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda? (indistinct) What about the verse in the *Bhāgavatam* that says if a devotee falls down that he's not to be considered as the fruitive workers or the karmīs, etcetera. Prabhupāda: Falls down means again when he revives, he'll begin from that point, where he fell down. [break] ...it is to be understood that polluted. Satsvarūpa: That's also sinful reaction. Prabhupāda: Polluted means sinful. (end) *Garden Conversation-*-June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban Devotee (1): ...brain, then we have to make some scientific solution, that to say God is acting, that is not acting, that is not practical. We must make some solution, like irrigation or... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: God helps those who help themselves. Prabhupāda: No, no, don't bring slogans now. Now answer this question. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People are falsely thinking themselves to be independent of God. Prabhupāda: No, what is his question, try to understand first of all. The question is intelligent. Hari-śauri: Actually, it's not a fact that by relying on science one can solve one's problems when you are dealing with... Prabhupāda: No, what they have solved? What they have solved first of all. Hari-śauri: They haven't solved anything. Prabhupāda: Then? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's just like, say here's a field, and it's full of wood, so a farmer comes and he cuts down the trees and then he plants grain, and then it comes up as wheat. So he'll say, "Well, God did not do it; I did it." So his proposal is that under such circumstances how is the idea of God practical? Prabhupāda: So then practical is if God would not have given you this land, then where is scheme of tilling it? Can you till in the sky, in the air? Who has given you the land, hmm? You are very practical, but where you get the...? Can you manufacture this land? Can you? Then God comes, immediately. Where you get this water? Can you manufacture water? Where you get this air? Can you manufacture? Where you get this fire? Everything, there is God. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But then he may say, "But what is the use, because someone who is atheist and someone who is God conscious, sometimes it is found that the atheist..." *Prabhupāda: The atheist will suffer. Just like anyone who is outlaw, does not believe in the government's law, he'll suffer. If somebody says, "I don't care for government laws," then he'll suffer. Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. He's a rascal. He may say so, like madman, that "I don't care for government and government laws," but naturally he'll be punished. He'll be put into jail and suffer. That he cannot check. He may, with empty words, he can say "I don't care for government," but does it mean that he can escape the government laws? That is not possible. Government will see that "Here is a lunatic rascal. Put him into the jail," that's all. Is it not? Is it not practical? Devotee (1): He can say also that "What is the difference? You are also..., you have to farm..." Prabhupāda: That is another thing, you and me, but we are talking of government laws. Whether you'll be punished, I'll be punished, that is different thing. Anyone will be punished. There is no question, "I" and "you." It is not that I am very favorite and you are not favorite. Anyone who will violate the government's laws will be punished. Who can deny it? It is not the question of "I" and "you." Anyone. How you can become independent of the laws? That is not possible. You have to accept God. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Christians say that God is very merciful. Prabhupāda: That mercy depends on Him. You cannot dictate Him. If I am merciful, that will depend on me, whether I can show you mercy or I can condemn you. That is, depends on me. Simply on the basis of "God is merciful," I can do all unlawful things, this is not practical proposal. Merciful means it depends on me. Whether I shall show mercy or I shall be very strong and strict, that is my will, freedom. I may show you mercy, I may not show. You cannot force me, that "You must become merciful." That is not right. God is really merciful. Otherwise, how He's supplying this... In the morning if a fog, so God mercifully has asked sun, "Now give them some sunlight." So we are enjoying. He is merciful. When there is sunshine you see the sinful man and the pious man, both enjoy. That is His mercy. When he bestows His mercy, it is for all of them, either you are sinner or you are pious. That is God's mercy. Just like the cloud when it pours water, it does not make any discrimination. On the sea, there is also rainfall; on the rocks also, there is rainfall, where there is no necessity of rain. Therefore where is necessity of rainfall on rock? What is the use? There is no use. It is simply waste. So God also wastes: "All right, you take. You don't require; *you also take." In the ocean there is no need of water, but when... The cloud pours water on the ocean also. Only on the land we can utilize, but God is so merciful, exactly like the raincloud, He is so merciful, where there is no necessity they are also getting rain, "Take rain." That is merciful. Without any discrimination, whether you want or not want, "Take it." That is mercy. You can show your mercy when there is scarcity water-you can bring some tanks of water from other places and put here-but how long you'll do it? But when the God is merciful, He'll pour rain so in large quantity that everyone will benefit. That is God's greatness. You'll have to spend so much money, labor, to bring a few buckets of water from other place. Beyond that, you cannot do anything. But God is so powerful, so great, that within a twinkling of, within a few minutes only, immediately He can overcast with cloud and overflood the whole tract of land. That is God's greatness. You have to understand God's greatness in that way. If the sinful, number of sinful men are great, God immediately starts one war, and within few years, all finished. Russia finished, America finished, everyone. That is greatness of God. In this way try to understand how God is great in every activity. In mercy He's great, in cruelty He's great. If He wants to show cruelty, He's the greatest cruel. No discrimination, all finished. Never mind women, children or cats, dogs*-all finished. That is cruelty, greatness of cruelty. Then there is greatness of mercy. So that is greatness. So you study, in God, the greatness, how great He is. At night you have so many lights for illuminate your city, home, and so many electric powerhouse going on, and God is so great that one sun-immediately, all light. There is no need of powerhouse, there is no need of matches, there is no need of this light, that light. Take sunlight. That is His greatness. And within a second. When night is going on, we have seen. Hari-śauri: On the airplane. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately sun comes out, all darkness gone. That is His greatness. Do that like that. Then you compete with God. Can you do it? Then how can you avoid God? (laughs). Rascals only, mūḍha, narādhama. They cannot appreciate the greatness of God. Mūḍha. They're asses. Anyone who does not appreciate the greatness of God, they're asses, mūḍha. As good as the ass. And lowest of the mankind, narādhama. And their so*-called scientific knowledge, useless. If by so-called scientific knowledge they want to defy God, then they are mūḍha narādhama, useless. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let's say a country takes full advantage of this slogan, "In God We Trust." Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let's say a country takes full advantage of this slogan. Prabhupāda: That is my question. Where is that full advantage? They are remaining in the darkness. Why do you trust, first of all. Why do you trust? So many questions there are. Why you are prepared to trust in God? If I ask, you must answer. If you cannot answer, then you are ass. It is good, even without knowing, but when the slogan comes from the government side, there must be full knowledge. Otherwise, the government is as good as common man. The government should be full of intelligent men. Why vote is there? You select an intelligent man. Otherwise, anyone can go. Cats and dogs, they also can go. Why the voting system? That you select some intelligent man. So if you cannot answer your slogan, then you are not intelligent, you are unfit. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They've made the platform that the man himself can solve all the problems. Prabhupāda: Then why do you trust in God? Don't trust in God, like the Communists say, "We don't trust in God. We shall do it ourselves." Kuladri: But the forefathers who made up our slogan "In God We Trust," they were very unintelligent, they were very backwards. Prabhupāda: But you are intelligent. Why you are putting the forefather's words? You avoid it. That means you are cheating people. You do not believe in, but you still write it. That means cheating. Why do you write such things in which you do not believe? That means cheating. Hmm? What do you think? If you write something which you do not believe in, are you not cheating? That means cheating. You take word, you are giving a piece of paper, and it is written there, "one thousand dollars." That means you are cheating, in the name of God, he will accept you, that's all. If you say, "No, I don't want paper. Give me gold dollar," then you are finished. Your currency will be finished. Immediately there will be revolution, that "The government is cheating us." Actually it is cheating. What is the proof, value, of this paper, little paper? Simply "I promise to pay, governor and this..." But it is on trust only: "Yes, government will pay me." They'll never pay, but so long the government goes on, it will go on, that's all, cheating will go on. And as soon government fails, you throw in the street, no one will care for it. It has been practically proved in the last war, in Germany. There was scarcity of food, and those who had bunch of currency notes, they went for one piece of bread, so many thousand marks, "Give me." Nobody supplied. So the paper has no value, but if we believe, it has value, that's all. Otherwise what is the meaning of this paper, one thousand dollars? So it is a kind of cheating, "We trust in God; we are very good men. You trust in me." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can this practically be applied to American society, this idea of trusting God? How would things change? *Prabhupāda: By this Kṛṣṇa conscious movement's propaganda. That is not for America*-for everyone. Kīrtanānanda: How can you trust God if you don't know anything about Him? First you have to know something about God before you can trust Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sense. If you do not know about somebody and you trust him, what is this? Yes. Raksana: Through the distribution of your books, through the... Prabhupāda: That is distribution of knowledge. Our distribution of books means distribution of knowledge to these rascals, lowest of the mankind, bewildered. This is distribution of knowledge. Who was talking about that there is secretly, there is, our books are being read? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was in East Germany. Hari-śauri: Harikesa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was in East Germany. They have lists, and they pass Prabhupāda's books around. One person has it for one night or three nights, like this, and it keeps going around, because they are very much in want of this. They can't get enough. *Prabhupāda: Just see how forcefully they are being kept into ignorance, and we want to give knowledge, they don't, won't allow. This is government. So anyway, it is good news that our books are being read in that way. That means people are very eager, but they are being suppressed by the so*-called government. What is the wrong there, that they cannot read these books publicly, because there is God? What is the wrong? When I was in Moscow airport, as soon as they found Bhagavad-gītā, they called police, the customs checking. The foolish man was kind enough, he said, "Not serious offense. Don't send him in the concentration camp." They can do. In Russia, even if you are foreigner, they can immediately send you to the concen..., without any knowledge, they don't care for your embassy or your... Such a rascal state, there is no civilized method. They send their own men, such an important man like that Kruschev. He was sent into oblivion; *nobody knows where he is. Such a rascal government. Very difficult to live in. People are... Simply under terrorism the government is going on. In that sense your American government is so nice. Everyone has got the liberty. What is that nonsense government*-terrorism. Kuladri: But even in our government the President Kennedy was killed and his brother was killed. *Prabhupāda: That..., in politics, that is going on. Our Bhagavad*-gītā begins on the killing ground. Battle of Kurukṣetra. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre [Bg. 1.1]. Kurukṣetra was a battlefield, but it is still dharma-kṣetre. Why don't you see that? Now the first word is dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. Yuyutsavaḥ means fighting. So why they have gone to the dharma-kṣetre for fighting? So killing, fighting, is not always irreligious. It is religious. Otherwise, why should go to dharma-kṣetre? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Someone may say, though, "How the fighting is religious? After all, it is a family feud." *Prabhupāda: That is your ignorance. But the beginning is dharma*-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. Yuyutsavaḥ means fighting. Two parties, they, actually, the two parties... Pāṇḍavas māmakaḥ caiva kim akurvata. Every word is significant. Fighting can be executed even in dharma-kṣetre. That they cannot understand. Gandhi misunderstood. If it is dharma-kṣetre, how there can be fighting? He wanted to prove nonviolence artificially. How it is possible? Kṛṣṇa is instigating him to fight, and how can you make it nonviolent? That is artificial. And if you want to explain something artificially, how long you'll do it, it will be failure. So Gandhi's philosophy of nonviolence and reading of Bhagavad-gītā went with him. Nobody is interested in that kind of explanation. And we are explaining Bhagavad-gītā as it is, it is increasing. It is increasing. There is no artificial way. Devotee (2): What hope is there for Kṛṣṇa consciousness in these countries like Russia and China, where they are so rascal they... *Prabhupāda: Everyone will be benefited. Simply you have to preach. You have to preach in the same way that where there is no necessity, there also the preaching will go on. You have to become like cloud. Therefore you sing every day, saṁsāra*-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam **. Ghanāghanatvam means deep cloud. You have to become deep cloud and pour water. This blazing fire will be extinguished. When there is blazing fire in the forest, the small fire brigade or bucketfull of water will not help. It requires cloud, ghanāghanatvam, to pour water, finished. You have to do like that. Vande guroḥ sri... One who can do this, he is guru. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam **. How one can become so? Prāptasya kalyāṇa, one who has received mercy of the Supreme Lord, he can do it. A cloud is formed by receiving mercy of the ocean. Cloud is never formed by receiving the mercy of tap water. You can say, "Here is also water. Not that water, the ocean water." What you will gain by receiving the mercy of tap water? (laughs) We have to receive the mercy of the ocean, prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya. Guṇārṇava. Arṇava means ocean. So it will be possible. If the cloud is there, bona fide, he can pour water, finish all blazing fire. Somebody was asking me question? Yes. *Devotee (3): The so*-called intelligent people in this country, like the professors in universities, they sometimes argue that the progressive value of life is to search for knowledge, the quest of knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes, here is the ultimate knowledge, what is God. You do not know. You are still professing as professor, as learned scholar, but you do not know what is God. Also you write, "In God We Trust." What is this nonsense? Where is your professorship? You explain God. Suppose I am a layman. I am asking "Why you have written in the bill? Please let me know what is God." Do you know? Then where is your knowledge? Devotee (3): But they say they are looking for it. Prabhupāda: That means you are not in knowledge, and still you are a professor. You become a student like me. Why you are occupying the post of a professor? That means you are cheating. You are calling yourself as professor, the teacher, and you do not know? Give up this post; come to my position. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Immediately revolution. Prabhupāda: Yes. Talk like sensible man. Don't cheat others, that you have no knowledge and still you say "I am professor." Why you are cheating people? Kīrtanānanda: They say that real knowledge is to know that there is no such thing as absolute knowledge but simply this process of searching for knowledge. *Prabhupāda: No. That is ignorance. As knowledge you are receiving... Just like I've come to you, I'm a layman, I've come to you for knowledge. Unfortunately, you have not received knowledge from that source. Therefore you are useless. I cannot have knowledge from you. Knowledge means to take it from higher personality. That is knowledge. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Knowledge means you have to receive it from a superior person. Otherwise, there is no knowledge. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So, for example, if one is learning how to count or how to read... Prabhupāda: Yes, he has to learn it from the teacher. Two plus two equal to four. One, two, three, four, like that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But actually one can understand the Absolute Truth without such knowledge. Prabhupāda: There is no such man. It is a nonsense, another non... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Without being able to count? Prabhupāda: Nobody can count unless he learns it from the teacher. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, but... Prabhupāda: So therefore for knowledge, you have to go to a proficient man or person, that is knowledge. Why do you go to a school and college? Be in knowledge at home. If you want to steal even, you have to learn it from a professional thief, how to cheat, how to steal. That is also another kind of knowledge. You cannot steal unless you become expert by learning how to steal from an expert thief. So knowledge means you have to receive it from higher authority. That is knowledge. Kulādri: What if one has material desire? How does he gain the desire for spiritual knowledge? Prabhupāda: That means you are cats and dogs. The dog has no inquisitiveness. Therefore you are no better than the dog. The dog never comes to a spiritual master, "Give me some knowledge." Therefore you are as good as the dog. That is your qualification. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So all different aspects of material knowledge... Prabhupāda: You have to learn from a superior person. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But now there is distinction between two types of knowledge. If knowledge means understanding... *Prabhupāda: No, no. Any knowledge, if you want to get it, you must receive it from a superior person. That is the law. That I already explained. If you want to steal, if you want to become a thief, you have to learn it from an expert thief. So any knowledge. Knowledge means you have to learn it from a superior person. And what to speak of the knowledge of God. That is the ultimate knowledge. Yesterday we were speaking that Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja learned how to make samosas. Now that knowledge is distributed. So every knowledge, you have to learn it from an expert. That is called guru. Guru means expert. Heavy. Who's knowledge is heavier than your scanty knowledge. You have to learn knowledge. Guru means heavy. Therefore Vedic injunction is tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You must. Abhigacchet, this word is used when the sense is "must." Not optional, that I may go or I may not go. No, you must. This is Vedic injunction. Devotee (2): We can see practically everyone understands that if they want to be a chemist, they study under another chemist, or a doctor goes to study from some doctor. Why they don't approach a spiritual master for religious knowledge? Why do they think they can do it by themselves? Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Kīrtanānanda: That idea has been encouraged by rascals. Prabhupāda: Just like if you want a son, you must have a wife. If one says "No, without wife, I'll get a son," this is nonsense. Is it possible? Kuladri: But Śrīla Prabhupāda, without any desire we have been given the heaviest guru. How is that possible? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Without any desire? Kuladri : Without our knowing about Kṛṣṇa, having any desire to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, still we have been given the knowledge. Prabhupāda: I don't follow. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's saying that by Kṛṣṇa's mercy we're here, we've taken. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. No. Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is the duty to distribute it. It is his duty. You may... When I came here, I never came here because American boys or people wanted me. They did not feel any need of my presence. But I came here, because it is my duty. My Guru Mahārāja ordered me. So one may think there is need or no need*-it is the duty of Kṛṣṇa conscious persons to spread it. Just like the example I have already given. The cloud..., the mountain does not want rain, the sea does not want, but the cloud throws water everywhere. Devotee (3): If no one was thinking that they needed your presence, then how is it some have come and some have not come? What is the difference? *Prabhupāda: Difference is it is Kṛṣṇa's desire. He wants that "Don't remain like cats and dogs. Be intelligent and come back to Me." Kṛṣṇa says sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So it is the duty of a devotee of Kṛṣṇa to spread this knowledge so that they may take to Kṛṣṇa. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand, but those who are two-legged cats and dogs, (laughs) they can understand. That is the advantage, because they have got two legs. So long they had four legs (laughing) they could not understand. So here is a chance, two-legged, so give them some opportunity. That's all. (long pause) You grow bitter melon also here? Kīrtanānanda: We tried to this spring to grow it, but we can't get the seed to sprout. Prabhupāda: You can get it from Māyāpura? Kīrtanānanda: We got seed, but it won't sprout. Prabhupāda: Oh, due to the climate. Kīrtanānanda: We don't know. It is a very hard seed. Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, perhaps the material scientists could help us make the seed sprout. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (4): I was thinking earlier how a farmer can put the seed in the ground, but he cannot actually make the seed grow if it is not the will of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. The situation is not favorable. That is the proof that everything is a living entity. If you put the seed... The seed is not the tree, but when you put the seed on the ground, if the situation is favorable, the particular living entity who has to take the form of that tree, he comes, and then it grows. That is the proof. Just like sex. It is not the secretion of the man and the woman. It creates a situation so that the soul may come and live there, and then there is pregnancy. It is not the matter. This is the proof. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Does that mean to some extent that the soul is dependent on a material condition? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi [Bg. 13.22]. Find out this verse, puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi. Hari-śauri: Just like when the body is no good, the soul has to leave. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the proof there is soul. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species." Prabhupāda: Purport. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport. "This verse is very important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter that..." Prabhupāda: This is transmigration. As soon as the situation... He is to accept a dog's body. Now a dog is having sex, and the mixture of the two secretions creates a favorable situation, and the living entity is there, and he gets a dog's body. This is the truth. He is destined to get a dog's body. So he's taking the opportunity that "Here is a suitable... " Nature is bringing him. If here it is refused, then he'll go to another place. Therefore contraceptive method is sinful, going against the law of... The situation is created for getting the body by another living entity, but he is transgressing. Then he'll be punished. So many subtle things are there. What do they know? Read it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress." Prabhupāda: This is transmigrating. He's put into this circumstances, so he gets this body. [break] ...in our society, he's living in a room, but if he has got some difficulty, he says... Then the authority gives him another room, "All right, you go there." This is transmigration. He must get a place according to his capacity, according to his quality. Go on reading. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such..." *Prabhupāda: If he wants to remain in this material world, creates a situation and continues his desire, then he has to take... And when he understands that "To live in this material condition is very troublesome. Why shall I live here?" then he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious and he goes back to home, back to... And so long he desires, "No, why not? If I remain in this situation, I'll be happy," then he'll have to get a body. Nature will give him all chances: "Get this body." If one is very pleased to take raw flesh, "All right, why artificially? Take this body, tiger." That's all. Nature is... God is so kind. Before we were talking of God's mercifulness, so if you are thinking that it is very happy life to eat, without any discrimination, anything, so immediately God orders nature, "You give him body of a pig. He can eat anything, even up to stool. Give him this body." Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. This yantra, this vehicle, this body, is given to him: "Yes, now you can eat anything, up to stool." And he is very pleased. He wanted it. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. He does not hesitate or feel any inconvenience. God is there, even within the heart of the pig, "My dear pig, you wanted a body like this. You have now got it, now eat, here is stool. You eat." And he enjoys. So the living entity within this material world, he wanted to enjoy, "I am the monarch of all I survey." So God gives him all facility: "Whatever you want, you do." Karaṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad yoni-janmasu. He wanted it, therefore he gets different types of body. That is transmigration. But still He comes and teaches, "Rascal, why you are suffering in this way? Give up this plan; *surrender to Me immediately." But he is making plan only. Just like in your country, there is everything opulent. The hippies are making plan, "We shall be happy in this way." What can be done? Everyone has got little independence. Let him do. So, so long we shall make plan to enjoy this material world, God will give us all facility, "All right, enjoy." Not enjoy, suffer. But because He is compassionate, kind, merciful, still He comes and begs, "You rascal, why you are making plan? Give up this. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. Then you'll be happy." So if anyone is intelligent, he takes God's direct instruction and he becomes happy. Otherwise, go on making plan. He'll give you facility. That is God's kindness. They are enjoying. The birds of the same feather flock together. They keep together, they fly together. They enjoy, they think it is enjoying. Go on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Due to his desire to lord it over material nature he is put into such undesirable circumstances." *Prabhupāda: This is not wanted. He is spirit. He has nothing to do with this material world, but he wanted it. Or the real thing is that he wanted to enjoy by becoming the master. He is servant... Sometimes servants desire it that "Why I become servant? Why not master?" That is natural. But the natural position is he is servant. If he remains servant of Kṛṣṇa, then he's happy always. But because he desired to become master, so he cannot become master in the spiritual world, because in the spiritual world the master is one. So he is given the chance, "All right, go to the material world and become a master." But that is a falldown. So he's trying struggle for existence, and everyone is trying to become master. Even one is in this spiritual knowledge that "I am spirit soul," still he's trying to become master. That is Māyāvāda. They have understood that "I am not this body, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, but I am the supreme Brahman." The same disease is there*-master. Therefore they are condemned, arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam tataḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Because the mentality to remain master is continuing, even they are in the Brahman, merge into the Brahman, the mastership mentality is there; *therefore he falls down again. Because mastership exhibition can be done in this material world. So many Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, they give up, "This world is false," and they merge, so*-called merge, but the mastership mentality is there. But in the void, simply spiritual light, he cannot do any mastership; *therefore again falls down in this false world, and he wants to be by becoming a leader of hospital, and school, college, a Christian missionary. And our Vivekananda also imitated that. So this, this is the material disease. He is actually servant, but he wants to become master. That is the defect. So he has to give up this mentality, mastership, then he'll be making real progress. Sarāopadhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam, that "I am not master, I am servant." When he's fixed up on this platform, then he's liberated. Or in other words, when he feels pleasure, transcendental pleasure, remaining the servant, that is liberation. But as soon as he continues the mentality that "I want to be master," then he's in the māyā. That mentality he has to give up. Or he has to understand that "I'm not master; I am servant." That is liberation. What is? Go on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod." Prabhupāda: This is material desire, to try to become master. This is the root cause of material life. Go on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Under the influence of material desire the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all circumstances the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the..." Prabhupāda: Even in the stool, the worms in the stool, he's also thinking "I have got so much stool to eat." This same mastership. "I am the monarch of all I survey. I have got so much stool." And you just take the worm from the stool, put it here: "No, no, no, here is my enjoyment." This mastership mentality is there in Brahma, and the mastership mentality is there in the worm of the stool. This mentality you have to give up. Then you become liberated. That is liberation. The bondage is that mastership mentality. He's servant, but he's thinking falsely that he's master. Just like your President Nixon. He thought that "Now I have become master of America, I'm president." He forgot that he's servant. As soon as the people wanted, dragged him down. That he forgot, that "I'm servant of the people." So everyone is servant, but falsely thinking "I'm master." That is material disease. The best thing is that if I have to remain servant, why not become servant of Kṛṣṇa? That's all. That is perfection. That is perfect life. Even by becoming a false master of the whole American country, I was not happy, I am now dragged down as a common man, Mr. Nixon, then what is the use of becoming master? It is all false. Let me become servant of Kṛṣṇa; then it is perfect. Instead of becoming a false master of the American country, let me be a real servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is liberty, liberated. Because any stage of my life, to become master is false. That is not possible. He has to be convinced that he cannot be master. Your constitution is to remain servant. If you prefer to remain servant of a big populace in America... But you are servant; don't think you are master. That is sane. And soon as you commit mistake as master, immediately he's in trouble. Is it not? That's it. You give up this false notion that "I am master." Then your all welfare is there. We teach that ask a Godbrother, "Prabhu." Don't become master, but become servant. Prabhu means "my lord." So everyone, if you address each other "prabhu," that mastership mentality will be less. If you remember that "I am not master. I am servant." Then? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature. One has to..." *Prabhupāda: Just like to eat anything and everything. It is different association. You go to the restaurant, you eat the intestine of pig. I've seen it. Is that anything eatable? But you have learned it on account of association. Karaṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgos 'sya. And if he remains with the Kṛṣṇa conscious, he eats kachorīs, samosā, prepared by Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. (laughter) It is due to association. By bad association he'll have to eat up to the stool. Then? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "One has to rise therefore above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. This is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unless one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer from one body to another because he has material desire since time immemorial, but he has to change that conception." Prabhupāda: That is material desire, how to become master. From different types, he's trying to become master. Just like in the morning the dogs are barking. He's also master, thinking "Why you are coming here?" Whatever little power he's got, he's asserting his mastership: "Don't come here." The same mentality. Then? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "The best change can be effected only by hearing from authoritative sources. The best example is here." Prabhupāda: This is the authoritative source, that you are not master, you are servant. Cultivate this knowledge. Don't try to become a master, falsely. That will never be successful. Remain servant of Kṛṣṇa, you'll be happy. That is the business of spiritual master. He gives the right information; *therefore he is respected so much, because he does not cheat. "You can become master, even God you can become"*-this is cheating. The real spiritual master says that "You can never become master. You are always servant." And therefore he's worshiped. He gives the right information. Therefore he is honored so, because he does not cheat. The so-called spiritual master is cheating, that "You take this mantra and give me some money and you become God." This cheating is going on. Spiritual master is to be worshiped. Why? Because he does not cheat. He gives the right information. That is his credit. Guruṣu nara-mati. Therefore one should not take guru as ordinary human being. Ordinary human being, he'll cheat you, or he'll give some information, he's cheating. But a guru, real guru, he'll not cheat you. Therefore he should be worshiped as good... God does not cheat you. Therefore guru should not be taken as ordinary human being. Guruṣu nara-mati. "I see that he is like ordinary man. His son is calling him 'father.' His wife is..." That's all right, but because he's giving the right information, he is not ordinary human being. Therefore he should be worshiped as good as God. He does not cheat. That is the test of guru. He'll never say that "You give me some bribe and you'll become God by meditation, transcendental." He'll never say that. This is cheating. Why father is respected? Because he never cheats the son. Father is also a man, another man. Why father is...? Because he's always wishing welfare of the son, he does not cheat, sincerely teaches him the reality. Then? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Arjuna is hearing the science of God from Kṛṣṇa. The living entity, if he submits to this hearing process, will lose his long*-cherished desire to dominate material nature, and gradually and proportionately as he reduces his long desire to dominate, he comes to enjoy spiritual happiness. In a Vedic mantra it is said that as he becomes learned in association with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he proportionately relishes his eternal, blissful life." Prabhupāda: All right. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban *Kīrtanānanda: This is our farm up in here. Lord Jagannātha is staying there now while He is ill. Our big Lord Jagannātha is going to Cleveland tomorrow for Ratha*-yātrā festival. Prabhupāda: Oh. It is the first time? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. They have a big cart, and they will go down the main street. Prabhupāda: How far it is? Kīrtanānanda: How far to Cleveland? About 130 miles. [break] Our land is on the left side. Prabhupāda: Oh. So this land, how you are utilizing it? Kīrtanānanda: We are growing a kind of grass, sudan grass. Then we cut that and put it in the tall silos for the cows to eat in the winter. Prabhupāda: In the winter this is all covered with snow? Kīrtanānanda: Most of the winter not. We get maybe six inches during the whole winter. [break] ...a lot of land now that's not our land. We are farming a lot of land now that is not our land. We lease it, or do it on shares. Prabhupāda: Oh. What is the share, half? Kīrtanānanda: Sometimes half, more likely a third, sometimes a quarter. We like that. Prabhupāda: Quarter for the proprietor? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. There are many people that have a lot of land, and they don't want to do it themselves. But the hay has to be cut every year, otherwise the trees come, and then the land degenerates. So they like to have it cut. [break] Prabhupāda: ...land can be cultivated also? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, it could be. It would be very good land. [break] ...our own lumber now also. Cutting our own trees. Prabhupāda: That is the nature's way. You cut the lumber and make cottage, and the land is clear, then cultivate, get you food, and cows, give them grass. Kīrtanānanda: [break] ...woods around here. Prabhupāda: Why it is there is no fog here? Due to the trees? It is clear. *Kīrtanānanda: There's a river up that way, and I think there's more fog up that*-it's always like that, I don't know exactly why. [break] Prabhupāda: ...in the jungle? Kīrtanānanda: Deer. Prabhupāda: Deer only. Kīrtanānanda: Few fox. Prabhupāda: Fox also. And fox, they come to our temple? Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: No. Fox, they eat men? No. Kīrtanānanda: Not usually. Only if they get sick, rabies, then they'll attack. They eat rabbits and rodents. Prabhupāda: Deer also? Kīrtanānanda: Deer are vegetarian, they eat grain. Prabhupāda: No. Devotee (1): Fox will eat the deer? Kīrtanānanda: Oh, I don't think. Devotee (1): Saw a lynx, a big cat. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): A lynx, a small cat. Kīrtanānanda: Something like a little wildcat. Prabhupāda: They eat, they're eaten by the fox? Kīrtanānanda: They'll eat the fox. They're very rare though. Prabhupāda: Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. *The handless animal is the food for the animal with hands. This is the beginning of life. Uncivilized man eats the animals. Apadāni catuṣ*-padām: these grass, plants, they are for the catuṣ-padām, four-legged. Cows, deer, goats, they eat. And those who are weak, they are for the strong. In this way, this is the nature's way. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. One life, a living entity is food for another. (dogs barking) Immigration department. (laughter) We have got passport. (laughter) That's all right. Kīrtanānanda: This is a dog's business. Prabhupāda: Dog's business. Without any fault, they'll chastise. We have no fault, still they are chastising. Durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma. You have got this independence. Little independence, more than the animals. Kīrtanānanda: It's the end of the road, so I think we can turn here. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break].... in the kitchen, this wood or gas? Kīrtanānanda: Both. Mostly wood. Prabhupāda: There are so many jungles, we can use wood. Kīrtanānanda: Actually we like it better. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, it is better, nice. Kīrtanānanda: But it is a little dirty. Unless you change it to charcoal, there was always some smoke. This is not ours. Our property comes down this way, but not on this corner. [break] ...land, Prabhupāda, and they say overpopulation. Prabhupāda: In the beginning, I protest against this assertion, there is overpopulation. I never admitted. Perhaps you know. Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: There is no overpopulation. If the Americans allow the Chinese and the Indians to come, they can develop all these un.... "No, this is our land, you cannot come," immigration, gow gow. [break] ...creek is pure water? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, the water around here is very nice. We can dam it and have big lake. Prabhupāda: If there is no foam that means it is nice water. Foam means sinful water. *Devotee (2): In Bhagavad*-gītā, Lord Kṛṣṇa explains that the soul is situated in the body but he's not the performer of activities. In other words, he does nothing within the body, and yet... Prabhupāda: Where it is said he does nothing? *Devotee (2): There's a verse that says the self*-realized soul, when he sees the activities of evacuation or moving or so many things, he understands that it is the body alone which is working. So how is it that we see in a dead body, when the soul has gone, there are none of these activities? So it appears, though, the soul is the principle in the body that is performing all these activities. Otherwise, how is it that the dead body, when the soul is gone, is also not carrying on so many functions? *Prabhupāda: So long the soul is there, the activities of the body are there. Otherwise not. That is explained*-habit. Knowingly, unknowingly. Just like a child is passing urine. He does not know that he's passing, but the body's action is going on like that. But if the child is dead, there will be no more passing. Like that. So long the body is alive, things are happening automatically. Just like this tree, so long it is alive the leaves are coming out, the flowers are coming out, although the trees have no developed consciousness. (pause) In Bhāgavatam we see that when Nanda Mahārāja felt some disturbances from the demons, they decided to change the place. And they immediately, from Gokula, they immediately went to Vṛndāvana. But we don't find anything that they had to take permission. Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: That's right. Prabhupāda: So that means formerly this was the system. If there is any vacant land, one can go and live there. There's no question of permission. When you live there and you make your professional activities, then the king will come, take little tax. Kīrtanānanda: That used to be the system here. They called it "homesteaders." If you would go and make you home there, you could have the land. Prabhupāda: That is not for the foreigners. If some Chinese men or Indian want to come... Kīrtanānanda: It used to be. But not anymore for anybody. Prabhupāda: Just see. Why? Kīrtanānanda: Because it has become very profitable for people to keep it. Because people are making money on it now. Prabhupāda: Money they must make; otherwise, why they should come? But what is the objection? Just like in the marketplace, still, in India, the system is, the marketplace, anyone can go and sell his goods, and when he's selling, the proprietor takes some contribution. Not that he has to take permission. He's selling there, that's all right, "Give me some..., a little contribution." The king has the right to tax for maintenance. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we take that which is not our quota, by using, wasting a lot of clean water, how is that perfect and complete, oṁ pūrṇam? How are things still perfectly complete even when we're wasting and destroying it? Prabhupāda: Why you should waste? Wasting is not allowed. [break] ...our car? Kīrtanānanda: No, it belonged to the man who formerly owned the property. Prabhupāda: So how it is broken? Kīrtanānanda: Some vandals. There's no one living here, he just left it. (in car:) This farm is for sale now. Prabhupāda: There is no limit of purchasing? Kīrtanānanda: Only limit is money. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say as in India there is limit, that you... Kīrtanānanda: No, government puts no limit. Prabhupāda: There is no land, therefore there is limit. [break] Kīrtanānanda: Cauliflower, peas, beets, carrots, lettuce, spinach... Prabhupāda: Potato? Kīrtanānanda: Potato, broccoli, Prabhupāda: Broccoli? What is that? Kīrtanānanda: It is something like cauliflower. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's that green vegetable, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that's like cauliflower. Prabhupāda: Cabbage? Kīrtanānanda: Cabbage, peppers. Prabhupāda: That is nice, so many. Tomato. Kīrtanānanda: But most things are not yet fructified. This is early in our season. Peas will be ready just shortly. Lettuce is ready. Prabhupāda: Vegetables, ghee, milk, wheat, then what do you want more? Kīrtanānanda: The wheat is just about ready for harvest. *Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say we can grow all these things and eat very nicely. Where is economic problem? Yajñād bhavati parjanyo parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ. [break] Kīrtanānanda: It's full of cow stool and urine. Prabhupāda: Ācchā, for fertilizer? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, fertilizer. Nothing is wasted. Prabhupāda: You can make gas also. Kīrtanānanda: Yes. That was originally an oil tank. (end) *Prabhupäda Visits Palace and Garden-*-June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban Prabhupāda: Thank you. Kīrtanānanda: In New Vrindaban, this is your palace. Prabhupāda: Oh! So many (indistinct) Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: There is no such building in America. [break] These are our workers? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, these are your builders here. Bhāgavatānanda Prabhu has done the design. Prabhupāda: Oh. Very nice. Kīrtanānanda: And Ātmabhū Prabhu is the chief construction man. Prabhupāda: Oh, all our men. Kīrtanānanda: All our men. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. Kīrtanānanda: Your car will come in here, and you get out and come right in. Prabhupāda: And this is the hall? Kīrtanānanda: This will be a little hall, and that is the worship room. We can put your vyāsāsana in there, and you can lecture there, and we can worship you always there. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: But this dome will go up another twelve feet, and four feet from the top there is, this lotus flower starts, and this is just one little sample of the kind of casting that will finish it. It will all be done now with smooth plaster. This dome here is being done like this dome, in cement. And then where you see these arches are being poured, there will be colored glass windows, stained glass windows. Prabhupāda: To enter that temple you have to go through here? Kīrtanānanda: To enter the Deity room you go through the kitchen. Prabhupāda: No, generally people will go from this side to see the Deity? Kīrtanānanda: No, they will see just from out here. Prabhupāda: All these walls closed, there is no window. Kīrtanānanda: There is no window. Prabhupāda: Only one window. Kīrtanānanda: Four windows on the up. Prabhupāda: Ventilation. Kīrtanānanda: Ventilation? Prabhupāda: No ventilation. Kīrtanānanda: There will be artificial ventilation, fan. Prabhupāda: Oh. Natural ventilation is prohibited. (laughs) Kīrtanānanda: No, these windows can open, air that way. Prabhupāda: Nice veranda. This will be open like this? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: These are rooms? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, these will be servants' quarters on this side. Prabhupāda: This will be window? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. This will be a kitchen. Prabhupāda: Nice, very nice. And there will be garden here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. We are gradually clearing all this land, this was all wooded last year, and we're clearing now. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Kīrtanānanda: It has very good view, all the way around. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kīrtanānanda: These are your quarters here. This will be your study room, and there will be a wall there. This is your bedroom. Prabhupāda: These are all marbles? No. *Kīrtanānanda: Yes, this is all marble. The devotees*-you see how the marble is all inlaid on the pieces there-they've done that. Then there will be a dressing room and a bath. Prabhupāda: Oh. That side? Kīrtanānanda: That side. Prabhupāda: These framework will remain? Kīrtanānanda: No, it will be covered with plaster. Prabhupāda: Then it will be taken away? No. Kīrtanānanda: No, no, it remains. Prabhupāda: It will continue. Kīrtanānanda: You have some question about this? Prabhupāda: This iron is corroding. If it will not hamper. Kīrtanānanda: It will be covered. Prabhupāda: Covered, but now it is corroding. Kīrtanānanda: I see what you are saying. There is another door that goes in that wall there, like this, for access to that side. Prabhupāda: Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Little service in this connection, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can protect one from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya. Kīrtanānanda: You are so kind to let us do it. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's desire. White sand, wherefrom you secure? Kīrtanānanda: In Ohio, about sixty miles from here. Prabhupāda: From the seaside, sea beach? No. Kīrtanānanda: No, they call it silica sand. I think it's made from glass. Prabhupāda: Not glass, it is a kind of stone made powder. Silica sand. They are like sandstone. Kīrtanānanda: This is just the first cut, not polished. Now, in this dome you see this is a... Prabhupāda: No, while constructing, filling up this, what is called, column, in Bombay, they're putting air so that they become solid stone. You have seen in Bombay? Big engineer, they are giving some pumping air so that while the cement is filled up, it becomes solid. Hari-śauri: Oh, vibrators. Kīrtanānanda: We also do that. Prabhupāda: You have got some machine? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: That makes solidified. Kīrtanānanda: No voids. Prabhupāda: Ah, no. I see, but.... It appears there is no vacancy. Everything is there, engineering. Engineering process is (indistinct). Kīrtanānanda: Yes. And we'll take you down to the gray house down here, we'll show you a few more things, how it's being finished. It is just rough here. Prabhupāda: What are these pipes? Kīrtanānanda: That's for drainage. For when the water goes out into the sewer, and goes out into the field and drains. Prabhupāda: You can utilize this water for fertilizing, drain water. Kīrtanānanda: Well, first of all, we have to satisfy the health department. Prabhupāda: [break] ...wood as fuel so that gradually this jungle will be clear. Thank you very much. Devotees: Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! [break] Kīrtanānanda: (in car:) It's sand, yes. It's not from our property, but it's gotten locally. It comes out of the river. Prabhupāda: Everything you had to purchase? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: It will be required. Kīrtanānanda: For some time anyway. While we are building so much we need some help. We do not have sufficient manpower. No one is idle. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, you like this? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's very wonderful. (out of car, entering a room) Hari-śauri: We have to take our shoes off? Kīrtanānanda: It's OK. Prabhupāda: These are specially made? Kulādri: Yes, special for you, in New York City, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Kīrtanānanda: And this is the kind of doors and the stained glass work is being done like this. The marble is being worked like this. Prabhupāda: This is lead? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like in the church. Who has done this painting? Kīrtanānanda: That is, I think, from India. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Kīrtanānanda: These pictures are rose quartz. This is rose quartz and twenty*-four-carat gold. Prabhupāda: Gold? (laughter) *Kulādri: Twenty*-four karat. Prabhupāda: In that Detroit house, so much gold. That is also like this. What are these? Kīrtanānanda: This is a sample of the handles. Prabhupāda: Plumbing? Kīrtanānanda: Like those on the doors. But we are just śūdras; we don't know how to do anything else. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What for these marbles? Kīrtanānanda: That will go on the wall in the bathroom, Italian cremo marble. Here's a picture of how the windows are being done in jāli work. This is being cast out of white cement. Prabhupāda: Doing here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. This is some of the castings they've done. This goes up on the ceiling. Prabhupāda: Cornice. Kīrtanānanda: Cornice, yes. Then around the top of the building on the outside, there's a railing with these balusters. Prabhupāda: This is made of cement? Kīrtanānanda: No, this one is plaster, this was our first model, but the ones that will be used will be done out of cement. This is very light. Do you have your drawing of the outside? Prabhupāda: Somebody's staying here? *Kīrtanānanda: Yes, Bhāgavatānanda and a couple of the other construction members stay here. [break] This is the way it will look when it's finished*-the balusters and the brackets supporting the sunshade. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...When God is there, within the heart, He'll give you, "Do like this." Buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te. If one is sincere to serve the Lord, the Lord is situated in everyone's heart, He'll give him, "Do like this." Teṣām evānukampārtham aham (indistinct) [Bg. 10.11]. It is special favor of God. Even if he's less aware of everything to be arranged(?), He'll give instruction, "Do like this." So there is no scarcity of instruction if one is sincere. Thank you very much. (leaves house) [break] ...I came to your country for preaching this, I had no idea how to do it. (laughs) But things are being model. People are surprised how within a short so many short years this world movement has sprung. I had no idea how to do it. (laughter) *Kīrtanānanda: Seeing your palace here is almost like seeing the Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple for the first time. Prabhupāda: Yes. In Raman Reti there was no temple. Similarly, in this quarter there was no such building. Many people will come to see it. Kīrtanānanda: They already do, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, I can understand. Kīrtanānanda: Many people come by every week to see what progress has been made. And everybody who drives by, they stop. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is something wonderful in this quarter. Kīrtanānanda: You can drive fifty miles away around here and they'll stop and ask you about how's the palace coming. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Changing New Vrindaban. It is already organized, New Vrindaban? (in car:) Little further. Kīrtanānanda: We're trying to clear all this now too. Prabhupāda: This is ours? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Kīrtanānanda: It takes a long time to clear it, though. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Do slowly, that is pleasure. Kīrtanānanda: Well, we could do it much faster if we didn't try to utilize the wood, but we want to utilize. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unnecessarily you should not cut. When it is necessary for Kṛṣṇa, then you cut. This is also living entity. We cannot kill them without any sufficient reason. (sings) Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya. This is our property? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. This side also. Kīrtanānanda: This side. Goes down to that road there. Prabhupāda: All this land can be planted. There is some graveyard? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. You want to ride any further? Prabhupāda: No. Harer nāma harer nāma harer [Ādi 17.21]. [break] Kīrtanānanda: ...can be seen in one direction at least a couple of miles away, several, no, three directions. This is the capital that will go in the courtyard here in the assembly area. On those columns, this will go at the top. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Thank you. This is plastic? Kīrtanānanda: This is what they make the mold from. This one is in plaster. Now they will cast more. Below that the... Prabhupāda: They can do Deity also, they can. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, after they've done with your palace they're going to start on some Deities. I think they would like permission to first start with your Deity. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Kulaśekhara is here? Kīrtanānanda: Kulaśekhara, yes, he is editing Brijabasi Spirit now. We will put a wall around and then all nice gardens inside. Prabhupāda: Cement wall or wooden? Kīrtanānanda: No, a combination of masonry and fancy iron so that people can see through. Prabhupāda: Reinforced. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, but also so they can see through at certain points. *Prabhupāda: Jaya. With sunshine this wood becomes very, very beautiful. Tapo*-vana. [break] ...in this house. Who is staying now? Kīrtanānanda: Usually there are devotees that stay there. Right now we are not having anybody stay there. Lord Jagannātha stays there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Here, in this house? No. Kīrtanānanda: What is that? No, Jagannātha stays in that house. [break] Prabhupāda: ...are grown here or brought from somewhere else? Kīrtanānanda: This was brought from somewhere else because there was nothing here in which to grow it. We can grow it. That's why it's so wet right now, very wet. [break] Prabhupāda: They will do it like this, now it is very nice. Kīrtanānanda: Very beautiful. Prabhupāda: That one girl is taking care, she's doing very nice. We can sit down here? Kīrtanānanda: Kulādri, find some more (indistinct). Come up this side. As soon as you sit down, everything looks complete. Prabhupāda: Hm? (laughs) Where is Pradyumna Mahārāja? Kīrtanānanda: He's just inside the house. You'd like him to come out? Prabhupāda: No. Pālikā, you came before here? Pālikā: Six years ago. There was just that one small, original farm. *Prabhupāda: Now it is a big property. And when the palace will be ready, many people will.... You simply advertise "Come and see palaces in New Vrindaban." It will be a combination of Western and Eastern culture. For the profit of the whole human society. So Vṛndāvana*-candra will come here? No. Vṛndāvana-candra Deity? Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: His palace will be different. *Kīrtanānanda: His palace will be where the building is now. We're planning to move Him into the new building next to the present temple, the four*-story building. He will occupy the fourth floor for now. Then we will take down that old building and put up a nice big temple. Prabhupāda: So why you dismantle, construct another? Kīrtanānanda: The building is not in such good condition. Prabhupāda: That's all right. As soon as the new temple is, move it; or you want to dismantle it. Kīrtanānanda: The site is good. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, site is good. Kīrtanānanda: It will make a nice complex in relationship with the other buildings. Prabhupāda: That will.... Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. Kīrtanānanda: We are about to install your mūrti in that temple. Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau [ŚU 6.23]. The Vedic secret(?) is that, parā bhaktir, yasya deve, unto the Lord, similarly, to the guru, they, to them, the whole thing becomes revealed automatically. Vedic knowledge is grasped not by erudite scholarship. Mundane scholarship has nothing to do. The secret is yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau. My Guru Mahārāja wanted that some books should be published. So I tried my best, and he's giving success more than expectation. In the history nobody has sold religion, philosophical books in such large quantity. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Or quality. Prabhupāda: Yes. These are all Guru Mahārāja's blessings. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is stressing on this point, *Simply execute that. Kṛṣṇa bhakti, kṛṣṇa prāpti haya yāhā haite. You'll get Kṛṣṇa. (long pause) [break] Govinda, Gopīnātha, Madana Mohana, Śyāmasundara, Rādhā*-Dāmodara, Gokulānanda, and...? Rādhā-Ramaṇa. The same thing, Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇava. Then other Vaiṣṇavas came, Raṅganātha, Rāmānuja. [break] ...devotees from India, we import to develop these quarters, will government allow? Kīrtanānanda: I don't think there's as much trouble from our government as from the Indian government. Our problem so far has been Indian government. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? If somebody wants to go, migrate in America, what India government will do? Kīrtanānanda: They won't give them passport. Prabhupāda: No, no, passport means coming back. But if he's going to domicile, Indian government cannot check. If I want to go somewhere and live there... Kīrtanānanda: You have to have passport. As far as I know. Prabhupāda: But passport means if he wants to return. Kīrtanānanda: No, in other words, in order to get visa from US, you have to present your passport. Prabhupāda: There are different kinds of visa. Immigration visa. Suppose if anyone wants to migrate in America, our society here, we give guarantee. I think there will be no... Kīrtanānanda: No difficulty. We can try. Prabhupāda: Our society is here, and we give this man our guarantee for maintenance. So what is the objection? By law there is no objection. And if the immigration department allows, "Yes, you can come and live," then where will be...? Immigration means that here government should be satisfied that this man is coming, he will have no difficulty, government gives permit. Kīrtanānanda: Should be like that, anyway. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is (indistinct). Similarly, you can bring some men from India. Kīrtanānanda: We would like that. Prabhupāda: And they also will be very pleased. India is now so congested. If they get food.... Especially many East Bengalis who migrate in West Bengal for the troublesome condition there, they'll be very happy here. You can write to Gopāla to inquire that we require here some Indians to come to help us. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mistris for construction? Prabhupāda: Mistri or anyone, to develop this Kṛṣṇa culture, so the Society will give guarantee. Why not take permission? And they may not come back. They may reside. Kīrtanānanda: I don't understand. That seems to be the government's, the Indian government's objection was that they wouldn't come back. Prabhupāda: So they are disturbed with overpopulation. Kīrtanānanda: It doesn't make any sense. But their objection was that they might not come back. Prabhupāda: But that is good for you, because you are harassed by overpopulation. You cannot feed them even. Why you object? Let them go and live somewhere else peacefully. Just like the Europeans came here. Originally, in America, Europeans came. Because it was overcongested and they got..., Columbus found this land, enough, and they migrated. So still there is so much land. The Indians are hard workers, they will develop very nicely. Just like this quarter; *if Indians would be allowed, they'll come and make it very nice. In South America, they have done. Many Indian cultivators, they have come in remote villages. This cooperation should be. Everything belongs to God. Why a class or community should be congested? Just like China, Japan, India, so much congested. What is this nonsense United Nations doing? What they have done for the last thirty years? No liberal*-minded. Let them propose that wherever there is enough land and wherever there is overpopulation, let them go and the government give them simply land and let them work and be happy. Why not arrange, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, arrange between these two, United Nations. Why a section of people is rotting in a place and devising some means how to fight with the others and get land? Why? There is no meaning. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. This is our philosophy, everything belongs to God, and everyone is a son of God; therefore the son of God has the right. Why they should be thrown together and live compulsorily in that rotten place, that in China they are living on the sea? You know that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Taiwan. Kīrtanānanda: Thailand, yes. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. They have no place to live on the land. Kīrtanānanda: They build boats and live on the water. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially if people are coming for agriculture. Prabhupāda: Agriculture is the noblest profession. Give him some land, he cuts the wood, makes cottages. The land is clear, now till it, keep cows and grow foodgrains. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Doesn't put any local men out of work. *Prabhupāda: Simple thing. And then live comfortably, eat comfortably, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Comfortably does not mean satisfaction of the senses. Comfortably means we require primary necessities, to eat something, to sleep somewhere or have some sex-this is also bodily need-and to defend, that's all. These are the primary necessities. That can be arranged anywhere. God has given all facilities. Grow your own food, eat, and live anywhere. Just this place was rough like that, now it is handled nicely, it is very attractive. (Bengali) Any damn place, you cleanse it, it becomes home. And any nasty man, you decorate him, he becomes a bridegroom. (laughs) (Bengali) (japa) Let Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement give this sense to these rascals. They do not know how to adjust things. They simply plan their United Nations, but they do not know what is that plan. Yes. United Nations. First of all why nation? Why manufacture nation and create trouble and again ununited? Nation*-this word is not there in the Vedic language. There's no conception of nation. There is conception of varṇāśrama, everywhere. Not for any particular nation or any particular country, but everyone, according to quality-first-class men, second-class men, third-class men. That is there everywhere. Everywhere you go, you find some people first-class intelligent, some people less than him, some people less than him, up to fourth class, that's all. And then fifth class. So everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Now you try to implement. Perfect human life. Let any sociologist, politician come forward. We shall convince them that this is only way. Why you are wasting time and barking dog in the United Nations for the last forty years and doing nothing? What I said, barking dogs? You have read it? I accused them as barking dogs, Melbourne, and they published in the paper. Actually, this is the fact. Kīrtanānanda: Barking for the last thirty years. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody has criticized them. They have taken it seriously; otherwise, why they have published? Yes, that's right. What they have done except barking? "I am American," "I am Russian," "I am this," "I am that," that's all. If you keep them dogs and hogs and, nicely dressed, they go to United Nations and talk of unity, is it possible? Can the dogs and hogs can unite? Common sense. You bring all the dogs of this neighborhood and ask them "Don't bark now. Live peacefully," (laughter) will they be able? (laughs) The United Nation is like that. They're kept as dogs and they're advised, "Now keep peacefully." Is it possible? They have no common sense even. First of all, let them become human beings. Conference is going on, big conference, and Jawaharlal Nehru has imitated, that in the conference there are different languages, different..., but if somebody is speaking in any language you'll hear it in your own language. Remember? In New Delhi he has done that. This rascal thought, "Now I am finished, I have done my duty." All rascals. (japa) Thus our definition, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's either in these four groups, bas, final. You just try to prove it. Hm? Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? You have any doubt about it? Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Anyone? Do it very nicely. Push Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement vigorously. If you keep the people in ignorance like dogs and hogs, what is the value of advancement of knowledge? So many universities? But discuss this point, our charge, explain to them, and let someone defend them, someone talking for, and let him decide. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ? Prabhupāda: Whether this is fact. It is fact, but even if we do not accept it, what is the wrong there, find out. We don't find any wrong, everything. Because Kṛṣṇa said it, then it's all right. Because they will say it is too sectarian, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's the most miscreant, sinful and ass and lowest of the mankind; he has lost his all knowledge. This is our accusation. Now defend. Any gentleman will protest that "I am such a respectable gentleman, and because I do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then I'll fall amidst these groups? What is this?" They will say. Now you'll have to prove, that "You are not a gentleman." Kīrtanānanda: Gentleman means one who is cultured. So culture is not of the body but of knowledge. Prabhupāda: But what do you mean by culture? First of all, the question will be "What do you mean by culture?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's some idea of progress involved, advancement of life. Otherwise, there's no need for any kind of progress. One remains as a child. Prabhupāda: Yes. Culture means advancement in knowledge. We say, "You're a gentleman of culture." That means he's advanced in knowledge. So what is the advancement of knowledge? Next question will be. Rakṣaṇa: Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna that that was to know that he was factually not his body. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is advancement of knowledge. Otherwise, what is the difference between this bird and the human being? He's also dancing very jolly, but he has no knowledge that he's not this body. So if the human being also remains falsely jolly without any knowledge of his existence, then what is the difference between these birds, dogs and human beings? Why we say low grade, animals? He's living in his own way. He has got all the facilities of eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Just you have all the same things. Where is the difference between you and him? Why you say advanced in knowledge? Rakṣaṇa: Nowadays they say that they're advanced in knowledge even without any sophistication at all, while Arjuna, when he was giving his arguments to Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: No, don't bring Arjuna now. Just speak on commonsense platform. As soon as we bring Arjuna, they think it is sectarian. We are talking on human common sense. What is advancement of knowledge? Devotee: They say if it's advancement of knowledge, if they are advanced, why do they have to die? The animals are dying, and they're accepting that, and the human beings also die. But why does he have to die if he's advanced in knowledge? Rakṣaṇa: Even if you are advanced in knowledge, you still have to die. Kīrtanānanda: Advancement of knowledge is to distinguish between what is temporary and what is eternal. Prabhupāda: Discuss on further. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They may say though that even the human beings, the necessities are there, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Prabhupāda: Everyone is doing. What is your advancement of knowledge? The bird is chirping, dancing, they're living, they are sleeping, they have got sex. So everyone is doing. What is your advancement of knowledge? Kīrtanānanda: We carry out these activities in relationship with the eternal soul. So that by performing the activities one is gaining knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Provided you have got the knowledge of the soul, then you are advanced than the birds and beasts. Otherwise, where is the advancement? Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The human beings, they can inquire about the spirit soul. These birds, beasts, they cannot. Kīrtanānanda: Then we find so many purported religious people. Just like Christians, they may say "Well, I believe in the soul," but nonetheless they are going on with their materialistic civilization. Prabhupāda: That means you do not know seriously what is soul. You have simply an idea, but you do not know in detail. Just like they say, the Christians, "God is great." But they do not know who is God and what is the meaning of greatness. That they do not know. They accept this theoretically or religious sentimentally, "God is great." Just like your state says, "In God We Trust." As soon as I inquire what kind of trust and to whom, there is no reply. That means they do not know what is God, what is trust. As a matter of slogan they write, that's all. Even the state heads, and what to speak of the nonsense ordinary citizens. Seriously taking, it is very important question. They should have reply. But they do not know how to reply. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With all of the situations that take place in the material world, they may not be able to see how God is actually active in the material world, that whether there's a war or whether... Prabhupāda: Well, that you should.... Why you should remain in ignorance how God is acting? If you are serious about God, then you must know. Just like a statesman, he knows how government is acting. Ordinary man, he knows government is acting, but he does not know how government is acting. But advanced in knowledge, they know what is the constitution, how the government is acting. That is the difference. Therefore lawyer is appointed when there is some trouble. He can find out where is the defect. That is advancement of knowledge. (end) *Garden Conversation-*-June 23, 1976, New Vrindaban *Prabhupāda: ...production of is external. Bahir*-aṅga-śakti. But the śakti, the energy, is coming from the Supreme. Just like here we find this place is shadow and that place is sunshine. Both these places are due to the sun. When there is no sun there is no such distinction that "This is shining, sunny, and this is shadow." So this distinction is there so long we do not know the real source. But if we know the real source, we can understand that this distinction is temporary. Actually the energy is coming from the Supreme. So shadow has come from Supreme, and light has also come from the Supreme. So there is no distinction, ultimately. Just like earring, golden, manufactured from gold, and gold which is not manufactured. So this distinction-manufactured or not manufactured, secondary. But really the earring is also gold, and the lump of gold is also gold. So why should we say that earring is false? It is also gold. In relationship with the supreme source, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], there is no such distinction. In another place, while Vyāsadeva was instructed by Nārada, he said, idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaro. This viśva, the virāṭ-rūpa, is also Bhagavān, but it appears different from Him. Just like the shadow appears different from the sunshine, but actually, taking the central point of emanation, it is different manifestation. That's all. Tree-there are so many varieties. One is trunk, one is branch, one is twig, one is leaf, one is.... So the varieties are there, but the tree is one, the root. So ultimately there is no variety, only one. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. The difference is the Māyāvādīs, they abruptly say everything is one. Not everything is one. The trunk is not one with the leaf, but ultimately because the root is the cause, so there is no difference between the trunk and the leaf. This is acintya-bhedābheda philosophy, simultaneously one and different. On the whole, everything is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why should we think this world is mithyā when it is created by God? Does God create anything false? No. When it is created by God.... When we think that "I create some business, some factory, that is my pleasure," but if somebody else thinks it, it is for his pleasure, that is māyā. The world is created by God, He has got some motive, so if the world, cosmic manifestation, is utilized for His purpose, then it is spiritual. Otherwise, it is material. *Devotee (1): In the Seventh Canto, second volume, the first chapter in that volume, Prahlāda Mahārāja is talking how the studying of the three Vedas is external and it includes knowledge though, of education and self*-realization, but he considers it material because it is external study of the Vedas. I don't understand that. Prabhupāda: Anything external is material. *Devotee (1): Self*-realization is included in that list of education and self-realization and other items. *Prabhupāda: Yes, self*-realization, simply understanding "I am not this matter," is also external because there is chance of falldown. But when you are actually engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is positive platform of self-realization. Devotee (2): Just like the brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. Brahmeti. *Prabhupāda: Different stages of self*-realization. (pause) Today there is no wind at all. Kulādri: Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we explain that our activities are spiritual, what we are doing is spiritual.... Just like we say the quality of the tape recorder becomes spiritualized when it's used in Kṛṣṇa's service. So the materialists, they don't understand. They say "Well, the tape recorder will also break, the tapes will also be burned up sometimes." Prabhupāda: That's all right. It will go to Kṛṣṇa. Breaking, where it will go? Hmm? Kulādri: They say the chemicals again become... Prabhupāda: That chemical, where it will go? Yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante yasmin saṁviśanti. Everything is created from Kṛṣṇa, again it returns to Kṛṣṇa. Kulādri: Then they say then we needn't play Kṛṣṇa conscious music. We might as well play rock and roll if it is going back to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: That is māyā. This is meant for Kṛṣṇa's service. As soon as you do anything else, then it is māyā. Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa*-mayī mama māyā [Bg. 7.14]. Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's. But under māyā we suffer; under Kṛṣṇa we enjoy. Kulādri: So if we engage everything here in Kṛṣṇa's service, then the atmosphere will change. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kulādri: They can notice the change in the atmosphere. *Prabhupāda: That is real atmosphere. Sva*-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. Mukti means to stay in the original form. Devotee (1): I've heard that you use the example that spirit has form and therefore the body also has similar form, just as a hand has a form in a glove, it's the hand's similar form. So how can we understand that the trees have a certain form? That..., is there spirit in the form of a tree? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Then how do we explain the transmigration of the soul? Prabhupāda: This outward is a form. What is the difficulty? Describe. Pradyumna: Just as this human body has a human form, we say that because this body has a form, the soul also must have form. Devotee (1): Talking about the transmigration then. Pradyumna: Just as the glove has a certain form because the hand is shaped like that, the material body of a human has that form because the spirit is in that form? And the tree has that form because the spirit is in that form? Prabhupāda: Here difficulty is that the form is fixed up. That is not.... Just like Kṛṣṇa appears in so many forms, everything is spiritual. So what do you think? Devotee (2): So the form in the spiritual sky is not absolute either? We can take different forms in the spiritual sky? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are also many forms, but all of them are spiritual. The Vṛndāvana. There is tree, there is Yamunā water, there is land, there is cow, there is calf, there is gopas, gopīs, they are all spiritual. Just like from earth you make many forms, but they are earth. You make pots, you make dolls, but they are all earth. Similarly, spiritual world, there are many forms, they are all spiritual. What is the difficulty? Pradyumna: Does that form ever change? That form changes also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Kṛṣṇa is young and then He's a little older. Prabhupāda: Generally, it does not change, if one likes this type of form. Śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vātsalya, mādhurya. Kulādri: That change is available to anyone to progress from śānta to dāsya? Prabhupāda: That change is not material change. The spiritual bliss is there, either in this form or that form. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that if we serve Kṛṣṇa we will enjoy, and if we serve māyā then we suffer. How can we get over our desire to serve māyā and enjoy separately from Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pradyumna: Says in the material world when we try to enjoy we suffer. When we try to enjoy we suffer? Then how will we get over our desire? And when we serve Kṛṣṇa we become happy. But how will we get over our desire to serve māyā? The attachment is strong. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pradyumna: He says how will we get over the desire to serve māyā, to try to enjoy ourselves in this material world? Prabhupāda: Serve Kṛṣṇa. *Pradyumna: It says here that yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. One obtaining this actual service of Kṛṣṇa, when one tastes the service of Kṛṣṇa, then he sees any other gain, he does not consider anything else. "Established thus, one never departs from the truth, and upon gaining this he thinks there is no greater gain." So when you actually taste the service of Kṛṣṇa, then you won't consider anything else to be worthy of your effort. But when we do think something else to be worthy of our effort then it means that we haven't, we're not becoming advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We're not developed. We should try to develop to that point. We have to develop. Prabhupāda says this is the test of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you will not want to depart from Kṛṣṇa consciousness to enjoy himself in material nature. And when one still wants to do that, that means he hasn't advanced to that point of stability in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dṛḍha*-vrata, who's completely fixed in his service. Avasthitiḥ. Yatra sthito na calati. When one is situated there, he doesn't depart from there, he doesn't want to go out from there. So we have to reach that point. Devotee (3): So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if at this platform we are not yet..., we are still desiring to depart from Kṛṣṇa's service and enjoy, then we are not, we have not yet tasted devotional service, what is it that we have tasted that is keeping us temporarily connected to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic injunction: You keep yourself connected with Kṛṣṇa, then you will develop the taste. Just like a jaundice patient does not taste sugar as sweet, but if he continues to take sugar candy, then he will have the real taste for sugar candy, sweet, not bitter. So he has to continue to eat sugar candy continually. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam. Then he'll have the taste. Kulādri: But the patient must be intelligent to keep.... Even though he does not want... Prabhupāda: Patient is always rascal fool. You cannot expect him to be intelligent. He must agree to the physician's directions. That is intelligence. He must know that he's diseased, he must follow the instruction of the physician. That much will help him. Unless one is rascal, he does not fall sick. As soon as you violate the hygienic principles, you become sick. All commit sinful activities on account of ignorance. So therefore the best advancement of civilization is not to open hospitals, but to give them a lesson that they may not fall sick and go to hospital. That is real...But they do not know. They keep the mass of people in ignorance, they fall sick and they come to hospital and number of hospitals increase, they think it is advancement. This is their idea. So even the Christians, religious persons, they also open hospital to give relief to the patient. So that is not the program. The program is why he should fall sick and come to the hospital? Precaution is better than cure. One comes to the hospital for cure, but why not take the precaution so that he may not have to come to the hospital for cure? That is Vedic civilization. They have different prescribed rules and regulations so that a person may not fall sick. The modern idea is that "Let them fall sick; *we have got hospitals and treat them, and they'll be cured." But he is cured, again he falls sick. That is going on. They have no program for precaution. They have program for cure. But actually, precaution is better than cure. We are taking precaution. The other fools, rascals, they are thinking, "What these people are doing? They are (indistinct) to have no this program, that," according to them. Just like our Vivekananda, he prescribed, daridra*-nārāyaṇa-sevā. The same thing-hospital. We kill all animals, and the hospital patient is given the meat for improvement of the health. But he does not know that this is not curing; *he is become implicated in his karma. He has to be killed again, and eaten by the other animals. That he does not know. They do not accept karma*-phala. Eh? The result of fruitive activities, (indistinct). But you will have to accept. There is no excuse. If you contaminate some disease, you must suffer from that disease. There is no excuse. So kriya(?) karma, you have to enjoy or suffer the result of karma. Karma-bandhana. But when you act for Kṛṣṇa, then you are mukta. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. Karma must be there. If you work for Kṛṣṇa, then it is all right, and if you act for your sense gratification, then there is bondage. If you do not take education, if you remain fools and rascals, then you will suffer and create disturbance for others also. Therefore everyone must be educated, good citizens. It is good for him, good for others. (long pause) So you go on reading. Pradyumna: *Translation: "One should engage oneself in the practice of yoga with undeviating determination and faith. One should abandon, without exception, all material desires born of false ego and thus control all the senses on all sides by the mind." Purport: "The yoga practitioner should be determined and should patiently prosecute the practice without deviation. One should be sure of success at the end and pursue this course with great perseverance, not becoming discouraged if there is any delay in the attainment of success. Success is sure for the rigid practitioner. Regarding bhakti*-yoga, Rūpa Gosvāmī says: utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt, saṅga-tyāgāt sato vṛtteḥ ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati [Upadeśāmṛta 3]. 'The process of bhakti-yoga can be executed successfully with full-hearted enthusiasm, perseverance, and determination by following the prescribed duties in the association of devotees and by engaging completely in activities of goodness.' As for determination, one should follow the example of the sparrow who lost her eggs in the waves of the ocean. A sparrow laid her eggs on the shore of the ocean, but the big ocean carried away the eggs on its waves. The sparrow became very upset and asked the ocean to return her eggs. The ocean did not even consider her appeal. So the sparrow decided to dry up the ocean. She began to pick out the water in her small beak, and everyone laughed at her for her impossible determination. The news of her activity spread, and at last Garuḍa, the gigantic bird carrier of Lord Viṣṇu, heard it. He became compassionate toward his small sister bird, and so he came to see the sparrow. Garuḍa was very pleased by the determination of the small sparrow, and he promised to help. Thus Garuḍa at once asked the ocean to return her eggs lest he himself take up the work of the sparrow. The ocean was frightened at this, and returned the eggs. Thus the sparrow became happy by the grace of Garuḍa. Similarly, the practice of yoga, especially bhakti-yoga in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, may appear to be a very difficult job, but if anyone follows the principles with great determination, the Lord will surely help, for God helps those who help themselves." Prabhupāda: Now questions? Devotee (1): So is there ever, for someone whose determination wavers and slackens here and there, is there ever a point where the neophyte devotee is in danger of just forgetting everything and falling, tumbling completely back? *Prabhupāda: Everyone is neophyte. He should practice determination, that's all. If he cannot practice, then why should he enter into this association? Let him remain aloof. One who has entered with the determination that "I must practice," so if he cannot practice, then why this makeshow that "I belong to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. I am initiated." Why this farce? He must practice with determination that "By practicing I'll be success." That is wanted. He has no determination, why should he make a show? Dṛḍha*-vrata. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Dṛḍha-vrata, that is wanted, determination. Hmm, go on. When one is determined, his success is assured. If he's not determined, then success or failure. Devotee (1): Can one develop determination gradually? *Prabhupāda: Why gradually? When you promise before your spiritual master that no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating, why should you fall down? If you have no determination, why should you promise in presence of the Deity, fire, spiritual master, Vaiṣṇava? Why do you make this farce, if you have no determination? If you want to make it a farce, that depends on you. But you should not. Devotee (1): When we make that promise... *Prabhupāda: Yes, you should not fall down, that is determination. That is gentleman's determination, that "I have given my promise. Why shall I fall down?" That is determination. "I must respect promise." That is called dṛḍha*-vrata. So he'll success. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we want to cheat, that is another thing. If we have no determination, we should not take up this life. Therefore, chance is given that "Stay with us for six months or one year, be determined. Then be initiated." If you are not determined, what is the use of false initiation? Devotee (1): Sometimes this weakness seems to be... Prabhupāda: Weakness there, you should rectify weakness. Why you should give any importance to weakness? Weakness is weakness. Rectify it. Kulādri: This promise is the minimum determination. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kulādri: This promise of following four regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds daily, that is the minimum determination. Then, from there, he must increase. *Prabhupāda: Initiation means minimum, just beginning. That is the dictionary meaning, initiation. In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta there is a verse, śraddhā-śabde-viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya, kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya [Cc. Madhya 22.62]. Explain. You understand? Śraddhā, śabde, viśvāsa, sudṛḍha, niścaya. Kṛṣṇe, bhakti, kaile, sarva-karma, kṛta, haya. Pradyumna: The word śraddhā means faith. So by the word faith, we need firm determination or conviction, śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya. Viśvāsa means faith which is sudṛḍha, very..., sudṛḍha, dṛḍha means firm, and sudṛḍha means very firmly. Niścaya. Niścaya is used here also, sa niścayena yoktavyaḥ. Yoga is to be engaged in, applied with firm... Prabhupāda: Faith, niścaya means conviction. Pradyumna: Conviction. Kṛṣṇe... Prabhupāda: Bhakti kaile. *Pradyumna: Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva kṛta*-karma. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-karma kṛta haya. *Pradyumna: Sarva*-karma kṛta haya. And if one engages, if one performs service to Kṛṣṇa, then everything else becomes accomplished. Everything else becomes accomplished. If one renders service to Kṛṣṇa, then automatically everything else, one has no obligations to the material world. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa will say sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]? Because by that action everything will be done. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam, that means He is cheating? There are so many other occupations, say veda-dharma, samāja-dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, medical dharma, lawyer dharma. You can manufacture so many occupations. Dharma means occupational duty. But if you take only one occupational duty, to serve Kṛṣṇa, all things will be included. Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is instruction. So to accept this principle means firm determination, firm conviction: "Yes, if I serve Kṛṣṇa, then all my other duties will be automatically done." This is firm conviction. "By one stroke, I'll kill so many birds." *Kulādri: Anartha*-nivṛtti? Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Kulādri: Rūpa Gosvāmī says bhajana*-kriyā and then anārtha-nivṛtti. Then all the unwanted things go away. *Prabhupāda: First of all, beginning with kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. So bhakti, beginning is ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅga bhajana-kriyā anartha-nivṛttiḥ [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. The material world means simply creating unnecessary duties. Simply anartha. Any material activities, you take, analyze, it is simply useless. Therefore we have called anartha. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Take for example we say no meat-eating. So what is the difficulty there? I have seen in the airplane, they eat meat, a little piece, not a lump. But because everyone is eating little, little, we require huge number of slaughterhouses. But if one decides, "I have got so many preparations to eat, so why shall I eat little meat?" (indistinct) I shall forego. Immediately he is saved from so many sinful activities. It is not that he will die if he does not eat a little piece of meat, he will die. He'll not die. We are not dying, and we don't take. So similarly everyone, without eating meat, he can live very nicely. In the whole principle, there is no difficulty. So on this principle this whole world is merged into sinful activity. (Sanskrit), unnecessary. That is material position-unnecessarily creating trouble. There is no necessity. But on account of ignorance, foolish association, sinful life, more and more and more and more going on. Andhā yathāndhair upagīyamānāḥ. And the deed is encouraged: "Yes, you do this. Enjoy life." What is his enjoyment? If anyone sees slaughterhouse, will he enjoy? Eh? What is...? He visits a slaughterhouse, is it enjoyment? But he takes as enjoyment. (Sanskrit), unnecessary, without any meaning. Mad, just like a madman acts, without any meaning. The monkey acts without any meaning. (Sanskrit), unnecessarily creating disturbance. (Sanskrit) sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. If you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all (Sanskrit) is finished. (Sanskrit) We are no more interested in unnecessary things. Illicit sex-one side they are encouraging contraceptive method, so why they'll not stop illicit sex, then automatically there is contraceptive method? So one side there is encouraged, contraceptive method, another, unlimited, unrestricted sex. This is their civilization. Why not teach him not to practice illicit sex? Then everything is done automatically. There's no need of contraceptive method. If one is trained up to indulge in sex only for begetting nice children, there is already contraceptive method. There is no necessity of unnecessarily producing cats and dogs children. So that requires training, determination. The śāstra says you should not become father if you cannot train up your children to save him from death. Who is the father who's training? To save him from the cycle of birth and death means to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if you are not yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, how you can train up your children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? This is determination, that "If I cannot train my children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and thus avoid the botheration of birth and death, I shall not have sex." That determination will save so many troubles. That can be done by practice. By engaging the mind in Kṛṣṇa, it is possible. The more you advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll lose interest in this sex life. In Vaikuṇṭha there is no sex life because the sex pleasure is not the foremost pleasure in the Vaikuṇṭhaloka. The sex pleasure is foremost here in this material world. They have got so much transcendental spiritual pleasure, this sex pleasure*-they are astonished: is that pleasure? (Makes spitting sound) Phu! Yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāma... That stage is possible. Still there are so many brahmacārīs. So everything depends on practice. Abhyāsa yoga-yuktena [Bg. 8.8]. That requires determination. (aside:) Where did you go, to take bath? Pālikā: This house just across. Prabhupāda: There is water? Well? No. Pālikā: There are barrels there, filling them daily. Prabhupāda: Why not well? Have a big well? Kulādri: They are getting water also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from this well. Your well is also going to that side. Prabhupāda: Yes. Have several wells in all places. That is nice. Is it very expensive? Kulādri: It's expensive. *Prabhupāda: It is more expensive than carrying water and consume petrol? That is laziness. Once you have a well, then you save so much trouble. Get one well in each, our house. It is here very deep, uh? To get well? Tube*-well? But there are so many creeks. Kulādri: We have what is called a springhouse. It's pure spring water, it's caught in reservoir. Prabhupāda: Where is it? *Kulādri: At the other farm we have, as well as tube*-well, Prabhupāda: Water must be. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if in the spiritual sky there is no sex life... Prabhupāda: You can store the snow. Yes. Big, big hole and collect the snow and put it here and cover it, it will stay. Is it not? Kulādri: We have so much water, though, running off the hill, we can make lakes. We have three lakes now. Prabhupāda: Then? Why don't you do it? *Kulādri: You saw the Rādhā*-kuṇḍa in the movie, in the film. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one returns to his svarūpa, his natural form, how does... *Prabhupāda: First of all, anartha*-nivṛtti. You are accustomed to so many bad habits. First of all try to rectify it, then talk of svarūpa. Where is your svarūpa? Simply wasting time. A man is diseased, he's thinking, "When I shall be cured I shall eat, go to this hotel, I shall eat like this." First of all cure, then talk of eating this and that. Svarūpa, when you are cured, that is svarūpa. So long you are not cured, what is the use of talking svarūpa? First business is cure yourself. Anartha-nivṛtti, that is anartha-nivṛtti. Then svarūpa will come. That is the bābājīs. In Vṛndāvana, you have seen? Siddha-praṇālī. *Pradyumna: Ah, siddha*-praṇālī, siddha-deha? *Prabhupāda: They are smoking and having illicit sex with one dozen women*-svarūpa. Rascal. This is called sahajiyā, a rascal. Condemned. Where is your svarūpa? Don't talk unnecessarily. First of all come to svarūpa, then talk of svarūpa. Devotee: So our motivation should be to get free from birth, disease, old age and death. *Prabhupāda: That is already explained. But you must be determined how to execute devotional service. Without determined devotional service, how we can attain that position? So what is the use of talking utopian? First business is anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Ādau śraddhā tathaḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. You adopt this means that you have got full faith that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness will save me." Then you live with devotees who are similarly determined. Then you execute devotional service. Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, you'll be free from all these.... These are the stages. There is.... Up to anartha-nivṛtti, you have to struggle very hard with determination, and then automatically everything will come. Tato niṣṭhā tato rucis tataḥ, athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ. So before svarūpa, anartha-nivṛtti, don't expect all these. Read. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: This is practice. Pradyumna: "Gradually, step by step, with full conviction, one should become situated in trance by means of intelligence, and thus the mind should be fixed on the self alone and should think of nothing else." Purport: "By proper conviction and intelligence one should gradually cease sense activities. This is called pratyāhāra. The mind, being controlled by conviction, meditation, and cessation of the senses, should be situated in trance, or samādhi. At that time there is no longer any danger of becoming engaged in the material conception of life. In other words, although one is involved with matter, as long as the material body exists, one should not think about sense gratification. One should think of no pleasure aside from the pleasure of the Supreme Self. This state is easily attained by directly practicing Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Kulādri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, before you said the patient has no intelligence. Prabhupāda: Therefore he requires spiritual master's guidance. Because he is rascal. What is the use of accepting a spiritual master? If you want to be cured independently, what is the use of calling a physician, consulting a physician? You do it yourself. (pause) Whether our cows are left now? We don't find cows. *Kulādri: They are at Govindajī temple. They are at the, where we will build Govindajī, at the main farm, Bahulavana, for Rādhā*-Vṛndāvanacandra, and some at Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana they are kept free to roam around, but at our farm in Bahulavana they have to be in pastures. Prabhupāda: Last time I saw some cows here. Kulādri: Yes, this pasture. Prabhupāda: Still there? Kulādri: No. Devotee (4): This pasture is through now, is it not? For a while. This pasture is through for a while, it must grow back. They are on another pasture. Kulādri: Today we had three calves born, all female heifers. Prabhupāda: Yes, go on. Devotee (4): The difficulty is that we cannot understand, we cannot feel what pleases Kṛṣṇa now, yet we can feel what pleases us, and that is the difficulty? Prabhupāda: You have no feeling, that everyone knows. Therefore you have to carry out the order of spiritual master, that's all. Devotee (1) : If we try to please Kṛṣṇa with all of our service and activities, that automatically brings pleasure to the self? *Prabhupāda: You cannot please Kṛṣṇa directly. You please your spiritual master, Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. If you want to please directly Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. That is concoction You cannot please. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. You have to please your spiritual master, then Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Don't jump. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya **. What is that song you daily sing? What is that? Pradyumna: By the words of the spiritual master our mind becomes conclusive from... Prabhupāda: Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't concoct. Don't you sing daily? Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't manufacture ideas. That is dangerous. Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches by His example. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karilā śāsana [Cc. Ādi 7.71]. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī that "My spiritual master saw Me fool number one, so he has chastised Me, that 'Don't try to read Vedānta; chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing." (motorcycle in background) Just hear. He has come to this turn. This sound is purposefully created? (motorbike going back and forth through much of the tape) Kulādri: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Just to show that he has a motorcycle? Or what is purpose? Kulādri: They have given us trouble sometimes. Prabhupāda: Demons. Kulādri: When your palace is on the other side, they won't disturb. And we will have walls. Prabhupāda: No, they don't like us. Kulādri: They are doing better than before, but still they are somewhat envious. *Prabhupāda: Everywhere this world is like that. Even the father will give trouble, Prahlāda Mahārāja, what to speak of others. Demon father is giving trouble to a Vaiṣṇava son. And not grown*-up son, five years old, innocent, but he's giving trouble. Devotee (3): When we had sickness the state police became very interested in us, and today a state policeman stopped me and asked if you were here. So he seems to be paying special attention that you are here now. He's very interested. Prabhupāda: However demon may be, they can appreciate that these are ideal characters. *Devotee (4): All these state police, they purchase Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee (4): All these state police, they purchased Bhagavad*-gītā. (sound of motorcycle comes very close, idles) (end) *Prabhupäda Inspects New BTG-*-June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "...God's property from being occupied by God's sons. America and other nations in the United Nations should agree that wherever there is enough land it may be utilized by the human society for producing food. The government can say, 'All right, you are overpopulated. Your people can come here. We will give them land, and they can produce food.' We would see a wonderful result, but will they do that? No. And what is their philosophy? Roguism. 'I will take the land by force and then I won't allow others to come here.' " Reporter: "One American motto is 'One nation under God.' " Prabhupāda: "Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There should be one nation under God, and one world government under God as well. Everything belongs to God and we are all His sons. That philosophy is wanted." Kīrtanānanda: Who is this reporter? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jagannātha Suta. This was in Māyāpura. (continues reading) "But in America people are very much afraid of the central government"*-this is the reporter-"because they think that wherever there is a strong government there will always be tyranny." Prabhupāda: "If the leaders are properly trained, there cannot be tyranny." Reporter: "But one of the premises of the American system of government is that if a leader has too much power, he will inevitably become corrupt." Prabhupāda: "You have to train him in such a way that he cannot become corrupt." *Reporter: "What is that training process?" Prabhupāda: "That training is the varṇāśrama*-dharma, a system of dividing society into four social and four spiritual orders according to people's natural quality. Divide the society according to quality and train people in the principle that everything belongs to God and should be used in the service of God. Then there really can be one nation under God." Reporter: "But if society is divided into different groups, won't there be envy?" Prabhupāda: "No, no. Just as in my body there are different parts that work together, so the society can have different parts working for the same goal. My hand is different from my leg, but when I tell the hand, 'Bring a glass of water,' the leg will help. The leg is required and the hand is required." Reporter: "But in the Western world we have a working class and a capitalist class, and there is always warfare going on between the two." Prabhupāda: "Yes, the capitalist class is required and the working class is also required." Reporter: "But they are fighting." Prabhupāda: "Because they are not trained up, they have no common cause. The hand and leg work differently, but the common cause is to maintain the body. So if you find out the common cause for both the capitalists and the workers, then there will be no fighting. But if you do not know the common cause, then there will always be fighting." Reporter: "Revolution?" Prabhupāda: "Yes." Reporter: "Then the most important thing is to find the common cause that people can unite on." Śrīla Prabhupāda: "Yes. Just like in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness society. You come to consult me about every activity because I can give you the common cause. Otherwise there will be fighting. The government should be very expert to know the aim of life, the common cause, and they should train the people to work for the common cause Then they will be happy and peaceful. But if people simply elect rascals like Nixon, they will never find a common cause. Any rascal can secure votes by some arrangement and then he becomes the head of the government. The candidates are bribing. They are cheating. They are making propaganda to win votes. Somehow or other they get votes and capture the prime posts. This system is bad." Reporter: "So if we don't choose our leaders by popular election, how will society be governed?" *Prabhupāda: "You require brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras. Just as when you want to construct a building you require engineers. You don't want sweepers. Isn't that so? What will the sweeper do? No. There must be engineers. So if you follow the division of varṇāśrama, only kṣatriyas are allowed to govern. And for the legislative assembly, the senators, only qualified brāhmaṇas. Now the butcher is in the legislative assembly. What does he know about making laws? He is a butcher. But by winning votes he becomes a senator. At the present moment, by the principle of vox populi, a butcher goes to the legislature. So everything depends on training. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness society we are actually doing that. But in the case of politics they forget it. There cannot be just one class. That is foolishness. Because we have to engage different classes of men in different activities. If we do not know the art then we will fail, because unless there is a division of work there will be havoc. We have discussed all the responsibilities of the king in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. The different classes in society should cooperate exactly as the different parts of the body do. Although each part is meant for a different purpose, they all work for one cause, to maintain the body properly." Reporter: "What is the actual duty of the government?" *Prabhupāda: "To understand what God wants and to see that society works towards that aim"*-that's the caption they put up here also, "The actual duty of government is to understand what God wants and to see that society works towards that aim"-"then people will be happy. But if the people work in the wrong direction, how can they be happy? The government's duty is to see that they are working in the right direction. The right direction is to know God, to act according to His instruction. But if the leaders themselves do not believe in the supremacy of God, and if they do not know what God wants to do or what He wants us to do, then how can there be good government? The leaders are misled, and they are misleading others. That is the chaotic condition in the world today." Reporter: "In the United States there has traditionally been the separation of church and state." Prabhupāda: "I am not talking about the church. Church or no church, that is not the point. The main thing is that the leaders have to accept that there is a supreme controller. How can they deny it? Everything in nature is going on under the Supreme Lord's control. The leaders cannot control nature, so why don't they accept a supreme controller? That is the defect in society. In every respect the leaders are feeling that there must be a supreme controller, and yet they are still denying Him." Reporter: "But suppose the government is atheistic?" Prabhupāda: "Then there cannot be good government. Americans say they trust in God, but without the science of God, that trust is simply fictitious. First take the science of God very seriously, then put your trust in Him. They do not know what God is, but we do. We actually trust in God. They are manufacturing their own way of governing, and that is their defect. They will never be successful. They are imperfect, and if they go on manufacturing their own ways and means they will remain imperfect. There will always be revolutions, one after another. There will be no peace." Reporter: "Who determines the regulative principles of religion that people should follow?" *Prabhupāda: "God. God is perfect. He does that. According to the Vedic version, God is the leader of all living entities. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). We are different from Him because He is all*-perfect and we are not. We are very small. We have the qualities of God, but in very small quantity. Therefore we have only a little knowledge, that's all. With a little knowledge you can manufacture a 747 airplane, but you cannot manufacture a mosquito." Prabhupāda: (laughs) Is it possible? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (continues reading) "God has created the mosquito's body, which is also an airplane. That is the difference between God and us. We have knowledge, but it is not as perfect as God's. So the leaders of the government have to consult God then they will rule perfectly." On this side it says "Leaders of government have to consult God, then they will rule perfectly." Reporter: "Has God also devised the most perfect government?" Prabhupāda: "Oh, yes. The kṣatriyas ruled the government in Vedic times. When there was a war, the king was the first to fight. Just like your George Washington. He fought when there was a war. But what kind of president is ruling now? When there is a war he sits very securely and telephones orders. He's not fit to be president. When there is war the president should be the first to come forward and lead the battle." Reporter: "But if man is small and imperfect, how can he execute God's perfect orders for a perfect government?" Prabhupāda: "Although you may be imperfect, because you are carrying out my order, you become perfect. You have accepted me as your leader, and I accept God as my leader. In this way society can be governed perfectly." Reporter: "So good government means first of all to accept the Supreme Being as the real ruler of the government." Prabhupāda: "You cannot directly accept the Supreme Being. You must accept the servants of the Supreme Being, the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas, devotees of the Lord, as your guides. The government men are the kṣatriyas, the second class. The kṣatriyas should take advice from the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas and make laws accordingly. The vaiśyas should carry out the kṣatriyas' orders in practice, and the śūdras should work under these three orders, then society will be perfect." The end of the article. Prabhupāda: You like this? Kīrtanānanda: Very nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Hari-śauri: Right to the point. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They can make a big plane, but they can't make a mosquito. It's so thought*-provoking. Here's that article by Dharmādhyakṣa that you liked. Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That article about, he wrote from Vancouver. It was in that small pamphlet that they sent to Los Angeles. "Simple Living and High Thinking." It had a picture of a forest, a stream in the background, and your picture in a little square was superimposed over it. Hari-śauri: We got it in Hawaii. Yes, it was for that Habitat conference. Prabhupāda: So we are not politicians, but we give some idea. Is it not good? Kīrtanānanda: We have political philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is our movement: Take instruction of God, follow it, and you'll be happy. What is this? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is the end of that article, then the magazine goes on. *Prabhupāda: They have not replied even. [break] "Simple Living, High Thinking." "Then and Now: the Right to Distribute the American Dream." Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. So instead of giving books to the members, they can read the books in the magazines. One magazine should be given free always to the members. Kīrtanānanda: Life members. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not books. "ISKCON*-Ten Years of Spreading Kṛṣṇa Consciousness." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Won't it help, though, to have the books in the members' homes, that perhaps their generations will read them? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Won't it help to have your books in their homes though? And maybe future generations will, you know, be benefited, they'll read your books? Prabhupāda: Let the parent, present generation read first of all. (laughs) Then talk of future generations. *Hari-śauri: At least they're still inclined to read the Bhagavad*-gītā. So if they have yours, then they can be correct, they can correct their misunderstandings. *Prabhupāda: What is this article? Ah. "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness*-The Spirit of '76." "Curing the Crimes of a Lifetime." Vibhavatī. "Curing the Crimes"-read it. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (reads) "Adapted from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, translation and commentary by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda." In the middle there is a picture of Arjuna piercing the target, and Draupadī. "With the recent disgrace of an American president still fresh in our minds, it is interesting to read of a similar case in ancient times. Five thousand years ago a blind king named Dhṛtarāṣṭra dishonored his high post and caused the death of millions. This story is of special importance even today, because he found an antidote to the crimes of a lifetime and in his old age became self-realized. King Dhṛtarāṣṭra was the acting monarch of Hastināpura, the capital of the Vedic kingdom of Bhārata, which five thousand years ago, according to the Vedic literature, spread over most of the planet. Hastināpura was on the banks of the Yamunā River at the present-day site..., at the site of present day Delhi. As its name indicates-hasti means elephant*-it was a city full of opulently decorated elephants. Noble men rode elaborate chariots past marble palaces inlaid with glittering jewels. The sweet smell of incense drifted out of lattice windows. Trees bearing fruits and flowers lined the wide streets, which were sprinkled with scented water. There was no hint of poverty or distress. Hastināpura was the crown jewel of the abundant Vedic civilization. From the beginning, Dhṛtarāṣṭra's position as king was never legal, for he was blind, and Vedic law ruled that a blind man cannot be king. Thus the throne went to his younger brother Pāṇḍu. But when Pāṇḍu died in his young manhood, Dhṛtarāṣṭra began ruling on behalf of Pāṇḍu's five sons, who were still children. In an age of great and honorable kings, Dhṛtarāṣṭra was an exception. Swayed by his eldest son Duryodhana's ruthless lust for power, Dhṛtarāṣṭra began to abuse the guardianship of the Pāṇḍavas by closing his already blind eyes to the planned and purposeful efforts of Duryodhana to destroy the boys. As the descendant of a great royal dynasty, Dhṛtarāṣṭra had the lineage and rearing of a proper monarch, but it seemed that he was as blind spiritually as he was physically. Although he admired and even loved the five fatherless princes, he began to contemplate taking away their kingdom, and even their lives." Prabhupāda: At seven o'clock we shall go there? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is time now? Kīrtanānanda: Six. Six o'clock, five past six. Prabhupāda: Oh. All right. (exits room) (end) *Room Conversation-*-June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban Prabhupāda: So what news? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we've distributed about 70,000 magazines so far this month. So I think we'll reach 100,000 in this month. Even though we are getting much harassment from the police, still we are going on. Prabhupāda: Why harassment? What is the fault? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: [break] They are mostly godless, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They see us as a nuisance to the public. We are threatening their sense gratification. Kīrtanānanda: What fault did Prahlāda have? Prabhupāda: Sense gratification, we are refusing them? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We are threatening their sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So it is bad? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: It is bad for their way of life. Just like Prahlāda was preaching to his school friends. And I think almost 20,000 big books so far. Prabhupāda: "So far" means? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Up to this month, for the first three weeks. Hari-śauri: Means there's one more, one more week. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Nine days left. Prabhupāda: What is your party doing? Kīrtanānanda: What is what? Prabhupāda: Your party, selling books? Kīrtanānanda: I don't know what the figures are. Prabhupāda: No, your line is this farming. Kīrtanānanda: Per capita, we distribute more books. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: Per man, we distribute more books than they do. I think per man we distribute more than anybody in ISKCON. Prabhupāda: And still they are maintaining this farm. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And building very nice buildings. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Very nice projects they are building. *Prabhupāda: This project should be advanced*-plain living, high thinking. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I think we'll take around that film of New Vrindaban to all the colleges this year when we are preaching and show it to the students as our practical example. Prabhupāda: This is nasty civilization, unnecessarily increasing necessities of life. Anartha. Kīrtanānanda: We would not have understood you if you had said that eight, ten years ago. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: Ten years ago I know I could not have understood you if you had said that. Now I understand a little bit. *Prabhupāda: Now suppose these electric lights. So, crude form of light, we grow some castor seed, everything from the earth. This also you are getting from earth, petroleum, and running on machine, and electricity is generated. But really you are getting the impetus from the earth. As soon as the petroleum supply is stopped, everything stopped. But for this purpose you have to search out petroleum from the middle of ocean, boring. Therefore it is ugra*-karma. The purpose is that you grow some castor seed, press it, get oil, put in any pot, and one wick, the light is there. So even understanding that you have improved the lighting system, but that is not the only necessity of my life. But to improve from the castor seed lamp, castor oil lamp, to this electricity, you have to work so hard. You have to go to the middle of ocean and drill it and get out petroleum and... In this way your real business of life is finished. The energy and the intelligence you got for your self-realization or your, this precarious position, constantly dying and taking birth in various species of life, this is your problem, and this was to be solved in human life, you have got advanced intelligence, but that intelligence is utilized from castor seed lamp to the electric lamp. That's all. Just try to understand. What is that improvement? And for this improving from castor seed oil lamp to electricity lamp, you forget your real business. You lost yourself. This civilization is going on. This is called māyā. For some fictitious happiness you lose your whole purpose of life. It is difficult to understand, but the fact is there. But you are under the control of nature, you have to give up this body. All right, you make very nice arrangement to live here, nature will not allow you to live. You must die. And after death you are going to get another body. So in this body, working for high grade electricity lamp, you work so hard, have got your own business, and next life by the laws of nature, if you get the body of a dog, then what is the benefit? That you cannot check. What is the answer? Hmm? Kulādri: Simple living, high thinking. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kulādri: Simple living. Prabhupāda: No, here is the charge. Now what is your answer? In this life you are living very comfortably, next life if I'm going to be a dog, then this is the charge. Now how this class of men will answer it? Can he deny that he's not going to be a dog? Kīrtanānanda: He says he doesn't believe it. *Prabhupāda: You believe or not believe. Just like this child, it is boy, he does not know anything. But I know, his mother knows, his father knows that he's going to be young man. If he says, "No, I am not going to be young man," that is childish. That is childish. But the father, mother, friends know that the boy is going to grow a young man, so he should be educated and he should be properly situated. That is the guardian's business. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. So that he doesn't know, that does not mean it is fact. So similarly, if rascals say, "I don't believe it," that's not a fact. He is a rascal, mad, he may say so, but that is not the fact. Karaṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgasya. Real fact is that he'll have to accept a body according to the quality of development. Kīrtanānanda: But what if they say that "Actually this life of growing the castor seed is very difficult, farming is very difficult. It is easier to go to the factory for eight hours, and then I come home with my money and I enjoy." Prabhupāda: No, you enjoy, but by enjoying, if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Your real business is that you have got this human form of body to improve your next life. You are going to have a next life. Suppose you are going to be a dog. Is that success? So you must know the science that instead of becoming dog, how shall you become God. That is intelligence. Kīrtanānanda: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to dig oil? Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to... *Prabhupāda: No, you require lamp. So you finish that lamping business as simply as possible. In the balance time you save you improve your self*-realization. That is the life. Just like this child, he wants to play. He does not go to school, does not take an education, and he improves type of toys, toys, he's engaged in improved type of football playing, and... Then is that very good intelligence? Kīrtanānanda: But nobody works longer hours than the farmer. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: No one works harder than the farmer. The farmer has to work very hard. Prabhupāda: No, our point is that if you think that electricity improvement is better than farming, we have no objection. But if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Kīrtanānanda: No, of course not. *Prabhupāda: That is our proposal. Our real business is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So simply for improving the condition of life, the necessities of life, if I forget my real business, is that intelligence? Therefore it is said duṣkṛtinaḥ. Kṛti means merit. But merit is being utilized for sinful activities. Take for example the meat*-eaters. When man was... The uncivilized man is still there. In the uncivilized way they are living in the jungle. They require to eat something. So they stone over an animal going, and the animal dies, and then they eat. Now instead of killing the animal by stoning, if you have discovered scientific machine in the slaughterhouse to kill the animal, is that improvement? If you think this is advancement, "Now we have discovered very technical machine. Instead of stoning one animal killing, it takes so much time, hundreds and thousands of animals you can kill in one hour," do you think that is improvement? That is going on. They think this is improvement. When we were uncivilized, we were stoning some animal and killing and eating, now we are, business is the same-animal killing and eating. But we have improved the machine how to kill. This is going on. This is going on as advancement of civilization. Hmm? What is your answer? Is that advancement of civilization? Now you are civilized, instead of killing the animal, you just take milk from it without killing and make so many nice preparations, and that is civilization. But killing is sinful. You have no right to kill any animal, even an ant. Because you cannot give life to anyone. It is nature's law, God's law. So infringement on the laws of nature or God, it is sinful activities. So you are utilizing your merit for this sinful activity. Therefore it is called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Merit is there, but it is utilized for sinful activities. That is defect of the modern civilization. Kuladri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember once you said... *Prabhupāda: These questions that "I believe," "I don't believe," you are rascal, what is the meaning of your believe or not believing? You are, after all, a rascal. Just like a child will say something, "I don't believe." The mother will say "You are rascal, you must go to your room." So rascals believe or not believe, what is the meaning? Mūḍha. It is the law of nature. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. The example is given that this boy will change his body. Dehāntara-prāptir. He'll become a young boy, young man. This body will not remain. What is the difficulty to understand? Yes, this body will not remain. While he came out of the womb of the mother, that was another body. But these rascals, they do not understand it. It is very difficult to deal with the rascals, that's a fact, but... Whatever they are doing is all rascaldom, that's all. And forgetting their real business. So your son, does he believe that he's going to be a young man? You believe? (laughs) Huh? What is your... Kulaśekhara: I remember once when we were staying at John Lennon's estate, you said to me... Prabhupāda: Huh? Kulaśekhara: At John Lennon's estate, remember? In London. You said to me, the tractor, you said, this is the cause of all the trouble. That it took all the work from the young men and they went to the city and became entangled in the sense gratification in the cities. So I've noticed in the city there's much more passion, but living in the country is simpler. Prabhupāda: Yes, passion, there must be. When you have got the facility, naturally we are lusty, and when we have got the facility, then we take to it. Kulaśekhara: The country is more peaceful. It's easier to think of spiritual life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Less disease. Less brain taxing. Everything is less. So balance time, utilize for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if you have got temple, it is very happy life. Just for your food work little, and balance time engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is ideal life. Just see minute fibers on the flower. Can anyone manufacture this? So small fibers. And how brilliant it is. If you study only one flower, you become God conscious. There is a machine which we call nature. From that machine, everything is coming. But how machine is perfect? And who has discovered this machine? Kulaśekhara: In London you said they do not know that the butterflies and flowers are painted, but Kṛṣṇa paints them with thought. *Prabhupāda: Yes. How you can expect without painting it has come so beautiful? This is foolishness, "nature"*-what is this nature? Everything is being done by the machine of Kṛṣṇa. Parāsya śaktir vividaiva śrūyate. Anyway, improve this mode of life. Live in open place, produce your food grains, produce your milk, save time, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Plain living, high thinking, ideal life. Artificial necessities of life do increase your so-called comforts, but if you forget your real business, that is suicidal. We want to stop this suicidal policy. We don't want to stop the modern advancement of technology, although the so-called advancement technology is suicidal. But we don't talk of this. (laughter) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore given a simple formula-chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even in your technological factories, you can chant. What is the wrong there? You go on pulling on with your machine and chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: They know that if people take up the chanting, gradually they will give up this technology. Prabhupāda: That is, of course. Kīrtanānanda: You are actually putting the seeds of their destruction. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, what is destruction? It is, rather, construction. (laughter) He'll live. He'll live forever. This is destruction. You have to change body. But our method, this tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. You don't get anymore material body. So that is saving. And without this? Tathā dehāntara*-praptir. Then you have to accept another body. So which is better? To accept another material body or no more accepting material body? Which is better? But as soon as you accept material body, you have to suffer. Material body means suffering. So that requires knowledge. If we finish our suffering up to this body, that is intelligent. And if we create another body for suffering, is that intelligent? But you have to, unless you understand Kṛṣṇa, you have to accept. There is no alternative. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. They are so dull they cannot understand the simple truth that as the child, boy is accepting another body, we have to accept another body. They cannot understand. So dull brain. It will take five hundred years to teach them this very simple fact. Huh? Their education is so advanced. (laughter) Therefore mūḍha, the word is used. So-called education keeps them as an ass. Cannot understand the simple truth. So everyone is getting milk? How much? Kīrtanānanda: As much as they want. Prabhupāda: As much as they want, then jaundice. (laughter) Too much is not good. They may take minimum half pound per head. Kīrtanānanda: Minimum. Prabhupāda: Minimum. And maximum one pound. Not more than that. But "Because there is enough, let us eat," no. That is not good. But children must get at least one pound, milk. If they drink more milk they become stout and strong. Kīrtanānanda: They get more than one pound. They get at least two pounds. Prabhupāda: Then their life is built up strong, and nice brain to understand. Do they not see the benefit of the society, that we are not killing children, we are maintaining them with sufficient milk. Is it not better civilization? And they are, for fear of overpopulation, they are killing. The mother is killing the child. Is that civilization? *Kīrtanānanda: But in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that those in the mode of ignorance, they take irreligion to be religion and religion to be irreligion. Prabhupāda: No, religion, there is no religion for them, but there is no morality. Here we are having so many children, we don't brag that "We cannot maintain these children. Kill them." We never say that. Never mind. Let them be trained up as Kṛṣṇa conscious, live comfortably, take milk. So which is better civilization? Running with motorcar, putputputputputputputput and killing child? Is that civilization? Kīrtanānanda: Most of these children are not even our own. They have been taken in from... Prabhupāda: Just see, that means we welcome. Kīrtanānanda: ...mothers without fathers, Prabhupāda: That means we welcome and they kill. So why do they not find the distinction between this civilization, that civilization? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have no arguments against this except that they want to be free. In colleges... Prabhupāda: But they are not free. That means they are fools. They are not free, still they are thinking free. That is foolishness. If you are actually free, that is another thing, (laughs) but you are not free. You are responsible for even a minute work or misdeed, you are responsible. Where is your freedom? That freedom means ahaṅkāra vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. The rascal, foolish, bewildered, he's thinking that he's free. Where is your freedom? Nature is working. If you are free, then why you are dying? If you are free, then do not die. Nobody wants to die. What is the answer? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will give some nonsense answer. Prabhupāda: What is that nonsense? In nonsense there must be some sense also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they would like both. Like the Christians, they would like to enjoy sinful life and at the same time live forever. Prabhupāda: No, we don't talk of any sect, we are talking of the general principles. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Their tendency is... Prabhupāda: Now the people's tendency, general tendency is, unless he's a madman, nobody is prepared to die. But he has to die. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But I accept death as part of life. Prabhupāda: Part of life? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, it's natural. So I don't, I'm not afraid. Prabhupāda: Then when there is some sign of death, why do you go away? Sit down and die. (laughter) You don't accept. You are talking foolishly. You don't want to die. That is a fact. You are talking foolishly, that "I accept it," but you don't accept it. That is the fact. But because you have no other way, then you say, "I accept it." The real fact is this, that you do not wish to die, but you find that there is no other alternative, "Then I accept it. All right." So you can talk like that, foolishly, but intelligent man, you do not want to die. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One time, one boy said that. So as soon as he said it, I picked up a stick and went like that "Oh!" and said "See, you are afraid." And he said, "No, I'm not afraid." So I went*-and he was showing fear. Prabhupāda: Even dog is afraid, what to speak of man. The animals, when they are taken to be slaughtered, they cry. So animal is afraid of death, why not man? Everyone is afraid. Kuladri: Prabhupāda? They say why do you worry so much about death? We are living. We are enjoying life, why do you worry about death? *Prabhupāda: Because we are intelligent. I love you. Therefore you'll die and you'll become a dog, so I am taking sympathy on you that "Don't become a dog." Every human being is anxious. The example is given just like a child flying kite and is going this way, this way, on the roof. Now on the edge of the roof, so one gentleman standing, "Hey, you'll fall down." That is his duty. He says, "Why you are checking me?" (laughter) "Why you are checking me?" "Because I am human being. You are foolish boy. Therefore I am checking you." That is natural. Even a child, or the boy is not his son, but because he is a gentleman, he wants to give him some protection. It is the duty of gentleman. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to the Indians, that "You become perfect and go and give this knowledge to the rest of the world. They are all rascals." Bhārata*-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. It is para-upakāra, humanitarian. You may say "Why do you bother?" But as a human being, I bother. Every human being will do that. Kṛṣṇa comes, bothering Himself. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. "When these have become rascals, fools, I come, again advise them." So those who are servants of God, they are also doing the same thing, on behalf of God. Their position is therefore exalted. They should be worshiped as God because they are doing the work of God. They are not cheating public. So improve this farming very nicely. So the cows, they should be given as much as possible pasturing. If you simply drink little milk, and little vegetables, that will supply all vitamins. You do not require to take vitamin pills. No, there is no need. It has got all the vitamins. That is admitted. Vitamin A, D, in milk, they say... And fruits, vitamin C. In this way, in fruits, vegetables, grains, milk, all vitamins are there. Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if you take milk in other forms, like if you eat cheese, if you take curd or cheese, is it the same as drinking milk or ... ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Any milk preparation. And if you have got enough milk, then keep it as ghee and open restaurant in the city. Give them nice samosā, kachorī. So in exchange you get money, you require little money, so that money will help you. Actually, in India, before these British, the poorer class of men, they were simply keeping, say, a dozen of cows, and that was their means of livelihood, that's all. From the milk they'll eat the, that, little milk, then yogurt, then..., what is called? It is another milk? Devotees: Casein? Curd? Cheese? Visakha: Buttermilk. Prabhupāda: Buttermilk, yes, and in this way after drinking and eating so many things, whatever balance is there, churn it and they get ghee, and that ghee is kept in stock. On the market day, they go to the city and sell it. You'll find in Vṛndāvana, so many cultivators, they have brought ghee. So the inhabitants of the city, town, they require ghee, they purchase, and with that money they get some necessities, just like some oil or some spices, salt, like this, which is not available. In this way... Hari-śauri: How is it they are so keen on buffalo milk in India? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: The Indians, they seem to prefer buffalo milk to cow milk. Prabhupāda: No, cow milk is not available, therefore buffalo milk contains more fat. But milk means cow's milk. What is the daily milk? Kīrtanānanda: About a thousand pounds. *Prabhupāda: Those who are meat*-eaters, why don't you inform them, when a cow dies, that "You can take it." Kīrtanānanda: That would be illegal. Prabhupāda: Why? Legal, illegal, that is their whim. Kīrtanānanda: But that will get us in trouble. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is, they can give us, they are in power, they can do that, but legally... Kīrtanānanda: Yes, you are right. If they want to eat, let them take the dead cow. Prabhupāda: They take it. Free, they get without any price. They get the skin, they get flesh, let them eat. We are not going to charge for the... You take it. Why maintain slaughterhouse? Take this. Kīrtanānanda: They even object if you let the animals, wild animals eat the dead cow. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kīrtanānanda: They even object if you let the wild animals eat. They want it buried. Prabhupāda: Oh, jackals or fox, if they come, they don't like it. Kīrtanānanda: The jackals like it. Prabhupāda: No, jackals like it, (laughter) but government... Kīrtanānanda: Government doesn't like it. *Prabhupāda: Government will like when the jackal takes your animal. They will eat it, they will not attack somebody else, because if they are not hungry, they don't attack. Even tiger or any ferocious animal, if they are satisfied in hunger, they don't attack. In the jungle, tiger and other animals, they live together. When they are hungry, they attack. So at least you can advertise that here is a cow, available free. Take it, those who are meat*-eaters. Take free without any price. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most meat*-eaters would consider it disgusting. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most meat*-eaters would consider it disgusting to have to cut cow open. Prabhupāda: Disgusting? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. If they had to do it themselves they would consider it abominable. Prabhupāda: No, some of them can do it, make business. As there are butchers, as they are selling meat, they can take it, they'll make more profit. From slaughterhouse, if they purchase, they have to pay, but here they get free. The hotel man, they can get free. The tannary expert, he'll get this skin free. I have seen they are eating the lobster, it is so decomposed it has become exactly like puss and they are eating. That argument is not valid. Kīrtanānanda: They cannot even eat the animal when it is fresh. They never eat beef fresh. It must age for at least three weeks, otherwise it is not tasty. (laughter) *Hari-śauri: I remember once there was one man, he was advertising himself, he was touring from one country to another, and he was advertising himself as being an expert meat*-eater. And he said, one of his statements was you couldn't eat a beefsteak until it had little white spots all over it, then it was ready to eat. Prabhupāda: White spot means decomposed. Fungus. Nānā yoni brāhmaṇa kare kadārya bhakṣaṇa kari' tāra janma adho pate yāya. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can point out all the defects in their system but then they say "But there is no proof that such a perfect society has ever existed as you speak of. We have no evidence that such a perfect society exists." Prabhupāda: You can see, come and see with us. Live in our New Vrindaban, you'll see. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Then they say "Well, that is all right for you, but that is not practical for everyone." Kīrtanānanda: Why not? We are human beings, and you are human being. Prabhupāda: So what is not practical for you, our system, your system is also not practical for us. We cannot live in this way. Anyway, if you can maintain a perfect community of plain living, high thinking, that is sufficient. We do not canvass, but naturally they will see that this is convenient. After all, they are human beings. They are learning. So that is part of our business to preach, but to practice personally, that is our main business. To practice personally, that is our main business. Not that everyone will be preacher, but at least his own life be perfect. What is this kijariya? Kulaśekhara: I don't know if it's spelled right, Prabhupāda. Hari-śauri: Kī jaya. Kīrtanānanda: Kī jaya Prabhupāda: Kī jaya. Oh. Kulaśekhara: It is misspelled? I'm no Sanskrit scholar, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Guruban dhāma kī, that kī should be different. *Kulaśekhara: K*-i? Prabhupāda: No, not kijaya. Kī one word, jaya one word. Just like Guruban one word, dhāma one word. Similarly kī one word and jaya. Kulaśekhara: The spelling is correct though? *Prabhupāda: Spelling? Yes, but generally k*-i. Kulaśekhara: I couldn't find, I looked in many books but I couldn't find kī jaya. Prabhupāda: Jaya is all right. Kīrtanānanda: What does kī mean? Prabhupāda: Kī means possessive, "of." Kulaśekhara: Have you been receiving the past copies of the magazine, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kulaśekhara: Have you been receiving the past issues? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda read the last issue in Hawaii. I remember you read through the last issue with a brown cover in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: So how you make this double color. Twice printed? Kulaśekhara: Three times. Red, black and yellow. *Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana*-candra? No. *Kīrtanānanda: Vṛndāvana*-natha. Prabhupāda: Where? Kīrtanānanda: He is at the original farm where you stayed. This is the pūjārī. Very, very nice boy. He also makes that nice sandesh. Rādhānatha. Prabhupāda: And who makes the singara? Kīrtanānanda: Kuladri. Hari-śauri: Kuladri makes those, he's doing some special thing to them. Prabhupāda: They are not giving me. (laughter) Kīrtanānanda: He's doing it right now. You'll have it tonight. Hari-śauri: He's doing it now. Prabhupāda: Not night. Kīrtanānanda: They said you want it at night. When would you like it, noon? Prabhupāda: Morning. Kīrtanānanda: Breakfast. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very nice. You decorate Kṛṣṇa very nicely, then you'll forget the business of decorating your person. This is the effect. Because people are busy how to decorate himself. They are spending so much money. Huh? But if you decorate Kṛṣṇa nicely, you'll forget this propensity. This is the process. Kulaśekhara: You also said if you decorate Kṛṣṇa, make Kṛṣṇa beautiful, your heart will become beautiful. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not fashion, it is for our benefit. By seeing Kṛṣṇa beautifully decorated, he'll be satisfied. He'll have no more propensity, "Let me go to the market and find out some nice rag and decorate myself." Finished. Hundreds and thousands of people in the temple, by seeing Kṛṣṇa nicely decorated, he's satisfied. Everyone satisfied. *Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think Rādhā*-Vrndavan-candra are more beautiful than the Deities in London. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (laughter) London differently. *Kulaśekhara: They are very beautiful, but Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra... *Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana*-candra is village beauty, and He is London beauty. He's town beauty. *Kulaśekhara: I have not seen more beautiful anywhere than Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra. The jewelry... Prabhupāda: No. Every one is beautiful, but everyone praises our London Deity. *Kīrtanānanda: They have not seen Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Kīrtanānanda: They have not seen yet Rādhā*-Vṛndāvana-candra. Prabhupāda: No, they have seen the picture. (pause) So how we can go there? Kīrtanānanda: I can take you. Prabhupāda: By car? Kīrtanānanda: By truck. Prabhupāda: By truck? (laughter) Cannot go by car? Difficult. Kīrtanānanda: I wouldn't want to try it in a car. Might get, the road is not bad, but it is not quite good enough for a car. Prabhupāda: The same way we have to go? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, but the road has been improved. Prabhupāda: So one day we can go. Kīrtanānanda: When it dries up. Prabhupāda: You father is an architect, I see. Kulaśekhara: No, he's working on the docks. Prabhupāda: Oh. His father came to see me in London. Kulaśekhara: He used to chauffeur you in his car. He would drive you in his car from the airport. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kulaśekhara: He is a good man, but he's not intelligent. Prabhupāda: No, he'll profit by your activities. Kṛṣṇa will give concession to your family. Because you are Vaiṣṇava, everyone will get the profit. Kulaśekhara: In London you said thirteen generations. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is special concession. Hiraṇyakaśipu was given, such a demon. But your father is not a demon. He may be less intelligent, that is another thing. So Kṛṣṇa is prepared to give facility to a demon father of a devotee. Kulaśekhara: Anyone who gets to render you personal service, Prabhupāda, they are most blessed, they are most fortunate. Prabhupāda: Anyway, you have got this jewel, utilize it properly, make your life perfect. But we don't say that you starve, you unnecessarily give trouble to your body. No. Eat nicely, but simply, and save time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our program. Nanda Mahārāja was a village man. Kṛṣṇa was village boy. Kṛṣṇa could live in New Delhi, but He did not like that. He lived in Vṛndāvana, a village. But one difficulty is that it is not plain land. Little troublesome, but not very much troublesome. So is there any difficulty of not being a plain land? Kīrtanānanda: It makes farming more difficult on the hill. It takes more time, more work. Prabhupāda: Hard work. Kīrtanānanda: That is good. Prabhupāda: For cows there is no difficulty. Kīrtanānanda: No. Prabhupāda: In India, they call Pahārhī when they are accustomed to hard work. Those who live on the Himalayan side, they have to work little hard, therefore they are Pahārhī. You have accepted other's children also? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Well, especially girls who have no husbands, there are quite a few here. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, you are so kind you don't refuse anybody. That is..., who is so kind unless one is a Vaiṣṇava? Nobody is kind. Kṛpā*-sindhubhya eva ca. Kṛpā-sindhu, ocean of mercy, that is Vaiṣṇava. Never mind what you are, come here, stay, drink milk, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanānanda: The children are doing very nicely. Prabhupāda: Yes? Kīrtanānanda: And they will be our future community. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kīrtanānanda: Practically it is impossible to teach these older boys how to use bulls and how to... It is very difficult, they cannot do it. But I think if we train the children. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa Himself did it. He was king's son, Nanda Mahārāja. In the childhood, He was taking care of the calves, and when He was grown up, little, He was taking care of the cows. Kṛṣṇa personally showed it. His father could have avoided, "No, no, You don't go. The servants will go." No. "You also go." Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma, both. Balarāma has got the plow, tilling ground, and Kṛṣṇa has got the flute to enchant the cows. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. They were not sitting idly, although Nanda Mahārāja could keep Them without any work. No. They worked. From the beginning of childhood. They would come in the evening and mother would take care of bathing Them, changing dress, and then giving nice food, and after taking food They would go to rest. Whole day They worked. Kṛṣṇa never taught that you sit idly. No. Personally, He did not do so, neither He taught anyone. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find. Find out this. Hari-śauri: What was that again, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Niyataḥ. You should read Bhagavad*-gītā so thoroughly for everything. That is good lawyer. Good lawyer means in the court, immediately give reference to the judge, "My Lordship, such and such law, under section...this is there." He's a good lawyer. Good lawyer means he immediately gives reference to the section on which he's talking. Immediately judgement is there. If there is previous authority and it is recorded in the lawbook, then he doesn't require to argue anymore, the evidence is there. Even in other court, if some judgement is there, they'll be accepted. This is the law. So a good lawyer means he gives references from different courts, the judgement makes easier. Instead of proceeding for a long time, he gives reference-"Here is the judgement, you see," and immediately... Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean to keep a set of men lazy, who cannot work. That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone must work to his capacity. Prescribed duties. They accuse us that we are escaping. Huh? What is that? We do not escape. We are always busy. Devotee: Recently I had an opportunity to see a (indistinct) farm community, and I was talking to one of the boys there about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they said "You are under Swami Prabhupāda." They said, "We have never seen Prabhupāda smile." I told them that "Yes, birth, death, disease, and old age are nothing to smile about." Prabhupāda: There are so many pictures, smiling. (laughter) Devotee: When you smile it's always beautiful. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have not read your Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are smiling here. Prabhupāda: No. There are so many. Hmm. What is that? *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Purport? "There are many pseudo meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set forth for kṣatriyas. Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart of a mundane man and free him from material contamination. So*-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so, through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others." *Prabhupāda: That is not the right way. Kṛṣṇa never said to Arjuna that "You haven't got to fight. You sit down, I shall do everything." He never said that. "You have to fight." Nimitta*-mātraṁ bhava savyaśacin. "And the result is already created by Me, but you have to make a manifestation of fighting." Just like our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Within eight or ten years we have developed so much. Is it humanly possible? It is Kṛṣṇa's plan. But Kṛṣṇa says that "You go and preach. Take the credit." Yes. It is His plan. Actually everything is done by Kṛṣṇa. He gives the credit to His devotee, that's all. You know the history of the Detroit temple (laughs)? Kīrtanānanda: A little bit, not too much. Prabhupāda: Detroit temple, it was, that building was constructed at a cost of two million dollars, say some fifty years, sixty years ago. And we purchased it at three hundred thousand dollars. So when they said that there is a nice house, so I told "Let me go immediately." So I went there and talked with the proprietor, so I liked it very much. It is a wonderful palace. So he asked $350,000. So I talked with him and asked some concession. Then I last bid again, "I'll give you cash, three hundred thousand." So he said "Yes, I accept." There was no money. (laughter) So the Bombay purchase, you know, it was simply speculation. So Kṛṣṇa is giving us. For a karmī, it is not possible, but Kṛṣṇa gives us all facilities. You have been in that palace, Detroit? Very, very nice. Perhaps the best in our society, huh? Hari-śauri: Without a doubt. Prabhupāda: London, that is also nice, but not as nice. The building is so strong, and the rooms are so palatial, big, big, rooms. One room of this size of the whole... Kīrtanānanda: How big is the temple room? Hari-śauri: The temple room is not so big, fifty feet long and about thirty feet wide. Prabhupāda: Bigger than here, double. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Very nice garden. Prabhupāda: Very nice garden and on the riverside. Kīrtanānanda: Can you bathe in the river? Hari-śauri: Sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes, if you like, you can bathe. Hari-śauri: You can drive a boat in it underneath the house. There's a dock. It's like a garage. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: All the rich people come by in their yachts all day long and wave, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Śrīla Prabhupāda said we should put a sign up on the, boat, that they can drive their boat in and take prasādam and read the books. Prabhupāda: Yes. And invite them, give here signboard: "Please come, read our books and take prasādam." Gradually, they will come. Very big garden. Hari-śauri: Seven peacocks. Kīrtanānanda: Is it stone? Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: What is it, the building is stone or...? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Stone, marble. With golden work. Hari-śauri: The bathrooms, even the soap dishes, are gold. The soap dishes, the toilet roll holder, everything is gold. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Gold wall paper. Prabhupāda: One floor is like this. Very costly house. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They told me that the prasādam room floor alone, three hundred thousand dollars to build. And you have gotten the whole thing. Prabhupāda: Everywhere it is so beautiful, nice, strong, and quite suitable for our purpose. Everyone is living. Still, big, big three, four rooms, not yet utilized. And climate also is nice, at the present moment, huh? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: I think the same climate here. Hari-śauri: Yes, same as here. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: There was a large swimming pool. Every afternoon all the... Prabhupāda: Yes, besides that, there is a swimming pool. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We would go out and have water fights. Prabhupāda: And they have kept five peacocks. Hari-śauri: Seven. Prabhupāda: Seven. They are very free moving, here and there, and chanting. Kīrtanānanda: They stay on the grounds? Hari-śauri: They never leave the grounds. They sleep up in one tree. Prabhupāda: They are free to move from one tree to another, but they don't go outside. Only complaint they are eating flowers. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, they are eating all the flowers. Prabhupāda: They are also trained, they are not afraid. They are sitting, you go, they are not afraid. They have been trained up that "We are at home." That animals and any birds can be trained. Just like these cows, they know that all of you are friends. Animals can understand. Even if you can make friends with the tigers and lions. Yes. I have seen it. In that New York exhibition, one man was showing me. He was embracing the lion and playing like dog. I've seen it. Hari-śauri: That used to be a circus trick as well. They used to put their heads in the lion's mouth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: As long as the lion is well fed, you can put your head in his mouth, but if you don't feed him, then it is dangerous. Prabhupāda: Naturally, if he's animal. They can understand that he's giving you food, he's my friend. The love, friendship, everything is there, even in animals. Devotee: Except God consciousness. Prabhupāda: That is possible in human life. But animal also can become God conscious by association. Kīrtanānanda: Sometimes I've heard you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that love only exists between similar categories. *Prabhupāda: Similar categories, the love is very conducive. Otherwise, love is possible with any living entity. The central object of love is Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. The animals love Kṛṣṇa, the human beings love Kṛṣṇa, the trees love Kṛṣṇa, the water love Kṛṣṇa, everyone loves Kṛṣṇa*-central point. That is the perfection of love. The Deity is kept in the same house? Kīrtanānanda: But it is changed, the house is changed since you were there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Changed means? Kīrtanānanda: The whole downstairs has been made into a big area. Prabhupāda: But I see the marble pillar? Kīrtanānanda: Yeah, it has a marble altar. Prabhupāda: The same altar? Kīrtanānanda: No, no. Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of New Vrindaban, yes. All right. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 6, 1976, New Vrindaban Prabhupāda: They say about the Westerners, you do not know? They say paścime lokā mūla nacaḥ.(?) The Western people, they are rascals and misbehaved. Kīrtanānanda: Misbehaved, that's a fact. Prabhupāda: Paścime loka mūla nacaḥ.(?) This means from India, the farther you go to the western side you'll find only rascals and misbehaved. From Punjab you go to Afghanistan and then Iran then so on, so on, Europe. These are paścima, Western people. Paścime loka mūla nacaḥ. Actually he meant it for Indian paścima, east and west. You came before here, New Vrindaban? Ṛṣi Kumāra: Yes, I was here, but a long time ago, when they just had the little farm, about six years ago. Prabhupāda: What did he say? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's back in Europe. This letter's from Germany. He mentions that he's getting some more buses and about fifteen more men to come along with some preaching equipment. They plan on leaving early August and are reaching there late August sometime. And so far he mentions that he still has no definite idea how to keep the buses in India, so the other buses will be coming out and two more buses will be coming in. This is his plan. Then he mentions that he had some correspondence with Lokanātha Swami, who's heading up the traveling party while he's in Europe, and Lokanātha Swami mentions they've been doing saṅkīrtana in Darmashala on the way up to Sri Nagar, Kashmir. And he says they are doing well everywhere they go. Prabhupāda: India, everywhere they'll be received very nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prasādam distribution has now been started as a regular part of the program. And they did one program in a town called Dalialama. Immediately two monks and one British hippie joined the party. Prabhupāda: Two monks means Buddhist monks? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Possibly. And he mentions in the last two weeks after we left Vṛndāvana we picked eight devotees, so they must have more devotees by now. The emphasis on their program he mentions is to make devotees and responsible preachers to carry on the Indian mission. And then he says that we've been advertising. Prabhupāda: Advertising? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like this. He says "I want to make one banner and poster: 'Now you can join the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Travel all over the world preaching Bhagavad*-gītā. All expenses paid. Free food, lodging, etc. No qualification necessary. Apply ISKCON.' " It's like army recruiting. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No qualification. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And he mentions the situation in Germany, at least the devotees are becoming a little stronger now. Saṅkīrtana is going on nicely. Prabhupāda: That's all that we want. Saṅkīrtana must go on. Kīrtanānanda: Devotees here now Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where from? *Kīrtanānanda: Baltimore, St. Louis, about seven vans from the Rādhā*-Dāmodara party, Buffalo, Cleveland. Prabhupāda: Occupied by devotees? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...is doing nice. Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: He's a very good boy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's very eager to train up the new men, he mentioned in his last letter. Prabhupāda: He is devotee. Nasty government. If somebody wants to give donation, a car, not allowed. Kīrtanānanda: Where is this? Prabhupāda: In India, if you want to give one car donation, they'll not allow. They'll charge 230 paisa(?). (indistinct) Very nasty government. Kīrtanānanda: Everywhere you go. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: Everywhere now is nasty government. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Dasyu*-dharma, rogues and thieves, they'll... Government means people in general, they are losing their independence. Personal independence, nil. Russia, cent percent, no personal independence. Simply like animals who live. (end) *Room Conversation and Readingfrom Çrémad*-Bhägavatam Canto 1 and 12--June 25, 1976, New Vrindaban *Devotee (1): These are publicity for the Ratha*-yātrā. This is the article about the building, how it's the most attractive real estate in Cleveland. It's in the paint and flowers and gardens. Prabhupāda: This year's? Devotee (1): Yes. People would drive by the temple, Prabhupāda, and just look. They would drive by and look once, drive a little further and look twice and three times. Prabhupāda: But San Francisco we haven't got our temple. We haven't got any temple? Devotee (1): No. We used the photograph. We made a publicity notice, a news release, and they printed it directly. It was easier for them. The picture is of San Francisco, but the festival was in Cleveland. Prabhupāda: There is no date? Hmm? Devotee (1): Maybe not in that one article. Other articles, there are dates. Prabhupāda: Is this Cleveland? *Devotee (1): Yes. There are many skyscrapers, tall buildings, there are many tall buildings, and people were looking out at the Ratha*-yātrā cart and at Lord Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: Here, the daytime is... *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We have found, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the buses are going to many of these cities, they have never seen our devotees, because when we go, we are dressed like they are for distributing the books. So now the boys are going again in the streets with a kīrtana party once a week downtown, and they have all done front*-page newspaper articles, because although they have been reading the books, they have never seen the devotees in many years. I think festivals like this... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: ...in all these cities would be very advantageous, and all the book distribution... *Prabhupāda: And therefore I said that introduce Ratha*-yātrā every city. At least wherever we have got our centers. Bring Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. They have received some testimonial from Indian... Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, Indian reviews? Prabhupāda: You can open this file. I don't want, but... *Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, how should we have these Ratha*-yātrā festivals. Should they be big? Should they be big festivals? Should I plan on having three carts next year, just one, or a small cart? *Prabhupāda: As you can afford. Minimum one cart. Otherwise, three carts. In India the Ratha*-yātrā festival is going on, according to rough estimate, for the last two thousand years, and the crowd never diminishes. One secretary of Parliament or something like that. *Hari-śauri: Śrī R. Subramanyam, M.A., Deputy Director Research, Lok Sabha Secretariat, National Parliament, New Delhi. Should I read it? "A strange feature of the modern world is that in spite of vast advances in science and technology and the establishment of a good number of institutions for human welfare, mankind has not found true peace and happiness. Knowledge of material sciences and arts has increased tremendously in recent times, and millions of volumes on each fill the libraries the world over. People and leaders in every country are generally well versed in these arts and sciences, but despite their efforts, human society everywhere continues to be in turmoil and distress. The reason is not far to see. It is that they have not learned the science of God, the most fundamental of every other art and science, and fail to apply it to the facts of life. The need of the hour is, therefore, to do it if mankind is not only to survive but flower into a glorious existence. To teach this science of God to people everywhere and to aid them in their progress and development towards the real goal of life, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is most eminently fitted. In fact, this great ancient work of Vyāsa will fill this need of the modern times, for it is a cultural presentation for the respiritualization of the entire human society. His Divine Grace, Śrīla A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the founder-ācārya of the ISKCON movement, has taken it upon himself, in addition to his ceaseless travels and other multifarious activities in the service of the Lord, the stupendous task of translating this Sanskrit work into English in about sixty volumes for the welfare and happiness of mankind. It is really astonishing how he is able to do this single-handed, and when one comes to think of this, apart from his other great literary works, one is tempted to wonder if he is not the same Vyāsa Muni reborn today to adapt his own old work into a universal language of this age for the spiritual upliftment of the modern man. So far eighteen volumes of this most beautiful literature on God have been brought out by ISKCON, and the rest are under preparation. Needless to say that in keeping with the excellence of their other publications, the publishers have seen to it that the printing, get-up, and pictures in these volumes are also of the highest quality, as though to serve as an ornament to the divine contents of the books. This is a rare opportunity to people and leaders of every country, race and community in the world to know and understand the glorious science of God and work for their perfection. I would say that this encyclopedia of spiritual knowledge is more important and fundamental than the encyclopedia of any other branch of knowledge and should, therefore, find a rightful place not only in the public and private libraries, big and small, of educational and other institutions, as also of every household, but above all in the hearts and minds of every man and woman." That seems to be it. Prabhupāda: Now read. Pradyumna: First Canto, Chapter Five. Prabhupāda: You can keep it here. Pradyumna: Synonyms also? The synonyms also? Prabhupāda: No, just text. Pradyumna: "Sūta Gosvāmī said: Thus the sage among the gods, Nārada,..." Prabhupāda: Where is your son? Devotee (2): He is at Pennsylvāṇīa, the Gurukula for now. Prabhupāda: Your wife? Devotee (2): She is here, she wanted to see you. Prabhupāda: Yes? Devotee (2): She can come in? She can come in for a minute, she has the baby with her. Prabhupāda: All right, let her in. Devotee (2): This is made with wheat from the farm. Pradyumna: He's on Pennsylvāṇīa farm, with Paramananda. Prabhupāda: Paramananda is there? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: They are doing well? Devotee (2): Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hear, now. Pradyumna: "Thus the sage among the gods, Nārada, comfortably seated and apparently smiling, addressed the ṛṣi amongst the brāhmaṇas, Vedavyāsa." Purport. "Nārada was smiling because he well knew the great sage Vedavyāsa and the cause of his disappointment. As he will explain gradually, Vyāsadeva's disappointment was due to insufficiency in presenting the science of devotional service. Nārada knew the defect, and it was confirmed by the position of Vyāsa." Text number two. *"Translation. Addressing Vyāsadeva, the son of Parāśara, Nārada inquired: Are you satisfied by identifying with the body or the mind as the objects of self*-realization?" Purport. "This was a hint by Nārada to Vyāsadeva regarding the cause of his despondency. Vyāsadeva, as the descendant of Parāśara, a greatly powerful sage, had the privilege of having a great parentage, which should not have given Vyāsadeva cause for despondency. Being a great son of a great father, he should not have identified the self with the body or the mind. Ordinary men with a poor fund of knowledge can identify the body as self or the mind as self, but Vyāsadeva should not have done so. One cannot be cheerful by nature unless one is factually seated in self-realization, which is transcendental to the material body and mind." "Your inquiries were full and your studies were also well fulfilled, and there is no doubt that you have prepared a great and wonderful work, the *Mahābhārata*, which is full of all kinds of Vedic sequences elaborately explained." Purport. "The despondency of Vyāsadeva was certainly not due to his lack of sufficient knowledge, because as a student he had fully inquired about the Vedic literatures, as a result of which the *Mahābhārata* is compiled with full explanation of the *Vedas*." *"You have fully delineated the subject of impersonal Brahman, as well as the knowledge derived therefrom. In spite of all this, why should you be despondent, thinking that you are undone, my dear prabhu?" Purport: "The Vedānta*-sūtra or Brahma-sūtra compiled by Śrī Vyāsadeva is the full deliberation of the impersonal absolute feature, and it is accepted as the most exalted philosophical exposition in the world. It covers the subject of eternity, and the methods are scholarly. So there cannot be any doubt about the transcendental scholarship of Vyāsadeva. So why should he lament?" *"Śrī Vyāsadeva said: All you have said about me is perfectly correct. Despite all this, I am not pacified. I therefore question you about the root cause of my dissatisfaction, for you are a man of unlimited knowledge due to your being the offspring of one, Brahmā, who is self*-born, without mundane mother and father." Purport. "In the material world everyone is engrossed with the idea of identifying the body or the mind with the self. As such, all knowledge disseminated in the material world is related either with the body or with the mind, and that is the root cause of all despondencies. This is not always detected, even though one may be the greatest erudite scholar in materialistic knowledge. It is good, therefore, to approach a personality like Nārada to solve the root cause of all despondencies. Why Nārada should be approached is explained below." *"My lord! Everything that is mysterious is known to you because you worship the creator and destroyer of the material world and the maintainer of the spiritual world, the original Personality of Godhead, who is transcendental to the three modes of material nature." Purport. "A person who is cent percent engaged in the service of the Lord is the emblem of all knowledge. Such a devotee of the Lord in full perfection of devotional service is also perfect by the qualification of the Personality of Godhead. As such, the eightfold perfections of mystic power, aṣṭa*-siddhi, constitute very little of his godly opulence. A devotee like Nārada can act wonderfully by his spiritual perfection, which every individual is trying to attain. Śrīla Nārada is a cent percent perfect living being, although not equal to the Personality of Godhead." *"Like the sun, Your Goodness can travel everywhere in the three worlds, and like the air you can penetrate the internal region of everyone. As such, you are as good as the all*-pervasive Supersoul. Please, therefore, find out the deficiency in me, despite my being absorbed in transcendence under disciplinary regulations and vows." Purport. "Transcendental realization, pious activities, worshiping the Deities, charity, mercifulness, nonviolence and studying the scriptures under strict disciplinary regulations are always helpful." Text 8. *"Śrī Nārada said: You have not actually broadcast the sublime and spotless glories of the Personality of Godhead. That philosophy which does not satisfy the transcendental senses of the Lord is considered worthless." Purport. "The eternal relation of an individual soul with the Supreme Soul Personality of Godhead is constitutionally one of being the eternal servitor of the eternal master. The Lord has expanded Himself as living beings in order to accept loving service from them, and this alone can satisfy both the Lord and the living beings. A scholar like Vyāsadeva has completed many expansions of the Vedic literatures, ending with the Vedānta philosophy, but none of them have been written directly glorifying the Personality of Godhead. Dry philosophical speculations even on the transcendental subject of the Absolute have very little attraction without directly dealing with the glorification of the Lord. The Personality of Godhead is the last word in transcendental realization. The absolute realized as impersonal Brahman or localized Supersoul, Paramātmā, is less productive of transcendental bliss than the supreme personal realization of His glories. The compiler of the Vedānta*-darśana is Vyāsadeva himself. Yet he is troubled, although he is the author. So what sort of transcendental bliss can be derived by the readers and listeners of Vedānta which is not explained directly by Vyāsadeva the author? Herein arises the necessity of explaining Vedānta-Sūtra in the form of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by the self-same author." He has not said it, so how can they know it? "Although, great sage, you have very broadly described the four principles beginning with religious performances, you have not described the glories of the Supreme Personality, Vāsudeva." Purport. "The prompt diagnosis of Śrī Nārada is at once declared. The root cause of the despondency of Vyāsadeva was his deliberate avoidance of glorifying the Lord in his various editions of the *Purāṇas*. He has certainly, as a matter of course, given descriptions of the glories of the Lord (Śrī Kṛṣṇa), but not as many as given to religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and salvation. These four items are by far inferior to engagement in the devotional service of the Lord. Śrī Vyāsadeva as the authorized scholar knew very well this difference. And still, instead of giving more importance to the better type of engagement, namely..." Prabhupāda: Why not go there? You can go there. Hari-śauri: In the big room? Yes. It's... It's too crowded here. Prabhupāda: Let us go there. [break] Devotee (1): ...trying to retire here in one year when he's through with his duties as a director of a mental hospital. Prabhupāda: Which community? Devotee (1): He plans to come here to retire in one year. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes, everyone should retire and join us. Devotees: Jaya. Prabhupāda: At least those who are above fifty years old. That is Vedic civilization. Pañcasordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet. One who is over fifty years of age, vanaṁ vrajet. So vanaṁ vrajet means completely retired from family responsibilities and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is compulsory according to Vedic civilization. *Pradyumna: "These four items are by far inferior to engagement in the devotional service of the Lord. Śrī Vyāsadeva as the authorized scholar knew very well this difference, and still, instead of giving more importance to the better type of engagement, namely the devotional service of the Lord, he had more or less improperly used his valuable time, and thus he was despondent. From this it is clearly indicated that no one can be pleased substantially without being engaged in the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad*-gītā this fact is clearly mentioned. After liberation, which is the last item in the line of performing religiosity, etc., one is engaged in pure devotional service. This is called the stage of self-realization or brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20] stage. After attainment of this brahma-bhūta stage one is satisfied, but satisfaction is the beginning of transcendental bliss. One should progress by attaining neutrality and equality in the relative world. In passing this stage of equanimity, one is fixed up in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. This is the instruction of the Personality of Godhead in the Bhagavad-gītā. The conclusion is that in order to maintain the status quo of the brahma-bhūta stage, as also to increase the degree of transcendental realization, it is recommended by Nārada to Vyāsadeva that he, Vyāsadeva, should now eagerly and repeatedly describe the path of devotional service. This would cure him from gross despondency." "Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows." Prabhupāda: Just like the modern newspaper. Huge bundle of newspaper every morning, huh? So it is, as it is said here, the place of enjoyment for the crows. What is that? Pradyumna: Vāyasaṁ tīrtham. *Prabhupāda: Vāyasaṁ means crows. The crows, they take pleasure in a place where all rubbish and refuses are thrown. They take pleasure. So what is this newspaper? All rubbish things, they are collected together. Nobody likes it to read. They just glance over for a few minutes, and then it is thrown away, rubbish. And even it is thrown, nobody touches. So they are spending huge, so many newspapers. Each newspaper several editions in a day, huge establishment, but there is no substance of life. That is being described. Na yad vacaś citra*-padaṁ harer yaśo. Read it? Pradyumna: *"Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows. Since the all*-perfect persons are inhabitants of the transcendental abode, they do not derive any pleasure there." Purport. "Crows and swans are not birds of the same feather because of their different mental attitudes. The fruitive workers or passionate men are compared to the crows, whereas the all-perfect saintly persons are compared to the swans. Crows take pleasure in a place where garbage is thrown out, just as the passionate fruitive workers take pleasure in wine and women and places for gross sense pleasure. The swans do not take pleasure in the places where crows are assembled for conferences and meetings. They are instead seen in the atmosphere of natural scenic beauty, where there are transparent reservoirs of water nicely decorated with stems of lotus flowers in variegated colors of natural beauty. That is the difference between the two classes of birds. Nature has influenced different species of life with different mentalities, and it is not possible to bring them up into the same rank and file. Similarly there are different kinds of literature for different types of men of different mentality. Mostly the market literatures which attract men of the crow's categories are literatures containing refuse remnants of sensuous topics. They are generally known as mundane talks in relation with the gross body and subtle mind. They are full of subject matter described in decorative language full of mundane similies and metaphorical arrangements. Yet with all that, they do not glorify the Lord. Such poetry and prose on any subject matter is considered decoration of a dead body. Spiritually advanced men, who are compared with the swans, do not take pleasure in such dead literatures, which are sources of pleasure for men who are spiritually dead. These literatures in the modes of passion and ignorance are distributed under different labels, but they can hardly help the spiritual urge of the human being, and thus the swanlike spiritually advanced men have nothing to do with them. Such spiritually advanced men are called also mānasa, because they always keep up the standard of transcendental voluntary service to the Lord on the spiritual plane. This completely forbids fruitive activities for gross bodily sense satisfaction or subtle speculation of the material egoistic mind. Social literary men, scientists, mundane poets, theoretical philosophers and politicians who are completely absorbed in the material advancement of sense pleasure are all dolls of the material energy. They take pleasure in a place where rejected subject matters are thrown. According to Śrīdhara Swami this is the pleasure of the prostitute hunters. But literatures which describe the glories of the Lord are enjoyed by the paramahaṁsas who have grasped the essence of human activities." When you said that transcendentally spiritually advanced men are called mānasa, that means "with the mind," because they are always thinking of? Prabhupāda: Yes, always. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa padāravindayoḥ [SB 9.4.18]. They are thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Pradyumna: *"On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the pastimes of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc. of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest." Purport. "It is a qualification of the great thinkers to pick up the best even from the worst. It is said that the intelligent man should pick up nectar from a stock of poison, should accept gold even from a filthy place, should accept a good and qualified wife even from an obscure family, and should accept a good lesson even from a man or from a teacher who comes from the untouchables. These are some of the ethical instructions for everyone in every place without exception. But a saint is far above the level of an ordinary man, and he is always absorbed in glorifying the Supreme Lord, because by broadcasting the holy name and fame of the Supreme Lord the polluted atmosphere of the world will change, and as a result of propagating the transcendental literatures like Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, people will become sane in their transactions. While preparing this commentation on this particular stanza of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam we have a crisis before us. Our neighboring friend China has attacked the border of India with a militaristic spirit. We have practically no business in the political field, yet we see that previously there were both China and India, and they both lived peacefully for centuries without ill feeling. The reason is that they lived those days in an atmosphere of God consciousness, and every country over the surface of the world was God fearing, pure hearted and simple, and there was no question of political diplomacy. There was no cause of quarrel between the two countries of China and India over land which is not very suitable for habitation, and certainly there was no cause for fighting on this issue. But due to the age of quarrel, Kali, which we have discussed, there is always a chance of quarrel on slight provocation. This is due not to the issue in question but to the polluted atmosphere of this age. Systematically there is propaganda by a section of people to stop glorification of the name and fame of the Supreme Lord. Therefore there is great need for disseminating the message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam all over the world. It is the duty of every responsible Indian to broadcast the transcendental message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam throughout the world to do all the supermost good, as well as to bring about the desired peace in the world. Because India has failed in her duty by neglecting this responsible work, there is so much quarrel and trouble all over the world. We are confident that if the transcendental message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is received only by the leading men of the world, certainly there will be a change of heart, and naturally the people in general will follow them. The mass of people in general are tools in the hands of modern politicians and leaders of the people. If there is a change of heart of the leaders only, certainly there will be a radical change in the atmosphere of the world. We know that our honest attempt to present this great literature conveying transcendental messages for reviving the God consciousness of the people in general and respiritualizing the world atmosphere is fraught with many difficulties. Our presenting this matter in adequate language, especially a foreign language, will certainly fail, and there will be so many literary discrepancies despite our honest attempt to present it in the proper way, but we are sure that with all our faults in this connection, the seriousness of the subject matter will be taken into consideration, and the leaders of society will still accept this, due to its being an honest attempt to glorify the almighty God. When there is fire in a house, the inmates of the house go out to get help from the neighbors, who may be foreigners, and yet without knowing the language, the victims of the fire express themselves and the neighbors understand the need, even though not expressed in the same language. The same spirit of cooperation is needed to broadcast this transcendental message of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam throughout the polluted atmosphere of the world. After all, it is a technical science of spiritual values, and thus we are concerned with the techniques and not with the language. If the techniques of this great literature are understood by the people of the world, there will be success. When there are too many materialistic activities by the people in general all over the world, there is no wonder that a person or nation attacks another person or nation on slight provocation. That is the rule of this age of Kali, or quarrel. The atmosphere is already polluted with corruption of all description, and everyone knows it well. There are so many unwanted literatures full of materialistic ideas of sense gratification. The people in general want to read. That is a natural instinct. But because their minds are polluted, they want such literatures. Under the circumstances, transcendental literature like Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will not only diminish the activities of the corrupt minds of the people in general, but also it will supply food for their hankering after reading some interesting literature. In the beginning they may not like it, because one suffering from jaundice is reluctant to take sugar candy, but we should know that sugar candy is the only remedy for the jaundice. Similarly, let there be systematic propaganda for popularizing reading of the Bhagavad-gītā and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which will act like sugar candy for the jaundicelike condition of sense gratification. When men have a taste for this literature, the other literatures, which are catering poison to society, will then automatically cease. We are sure therefore that everyone in the human society will welcome Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, even though it is now presented with so many faults, for it is recommended by Śrī Nārada, who has very kindly appeared in this chapter." Prabhupāda: So what other literatures say? There is not one. In our society we do not read even newspaper, is it not? Do we? Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only in context to our preaching work. Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but generally. We do not derive any benefit from those. People read it, especially in the Western counties. If there is no newspaper it is hell. I told you this story? Yes. You can repeat that. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The preacher was preaching to the coal miners that if they were not good, they would go to hell, and in hell it was very cold. So they were thinking, "So it is very cold in the mine." Then he was saying that it is very dark in hell. "But it is very dark in the mine." Then he said "And there are no newspapers." "Oh, how horrible, what a horrible place that must be." Prabhupāda: When they heard in the hell there is no newspaper, then came to the idea, "Oh, it is horrible." Otherwise, cold, dark, "Oh, this is our custom. We are already accustomed to these habits, we are working in the mine. So don't make any distinction between hell and our present residential quarters. But if there is no newspaper, certainly that is hell." Pradyumna: *"Knowledge of self*-realization, even though freed from all material affinity, does not look well if devoid of a conception of the infallible God. What then is the use of fruitive activities, which are naturally painful from the very beginning and transient by nature if they are not utilized for the devotional service of the Lord?" Purport. "As referred to above, not only ordinary literatures devoid of the transcendental glorification of the Lord are condemned, but also Vedic literatures and speculation on the subject of impersonal Brahman when they are devoid of devotional service. When speculation on the impersonal Brahman is condemned on the above ground, then what to speak of ordinary fruitive work, which is not meant to fulfill the aim of devotional service. Such speculative knowledge and fruitive work cannot lead one to the goal of perfection. Fruitive work, in which almost all people in general are engaged, is always painful, either in the beginning or at the end. It can only be fruitful when made subservient to the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is confirmed that the result of such fruitive work may be offered for the service of the Lord, otherwise it leads to material bondage. The bona fide enjoyer of the fruitive work is the Personality of Godhead. And thus when it is engaged for the sense gratification of the living entities, it becomes an acute source of trouble." "O Vyāsadeva, your vision is completely perfect. Your good fame is spotless, you are firm in vow and situated in truthfulness, and thus you can think of the pastimes of the Lord in trance for the liberation of the people in general from all material bondage." Purport. "People in general have a taste for literature by instinct. They want to hear and read from the authorities something about the unknown, but their taste is exploited by unfortunate literatures, which are full of subject matter for satisfaction of the material senses. Such literatures contain different kinds of mundane poems and philosophical speculations more or less under the influence of māyā, ending in sense gratification. These literatures, although worthless in the true sense of the term, are variously decorated to attract the attention of the less intelligent men. Thus the attracted living entities are more and more entangled in material bondage without hope of liberation for thousands and thousands of generations. Śrī Nārada Ṛṣi, being the best among the Vaiṣṇavas, is compassionate on such unfortunate victims of worthless literatures, and thus he advises Śrī Vyāsadeva to compose transcendental literature which is not only attractive but can also actually bring liberation from all kinds of bondage. Śrīla Vyāsadeva or his representatives are qualified because they are rightly trained to see things in true perspective. Śrīla Vyāsadeva and his representatives are pure in thought due to their spiritual enlightenment; fixed in their vows, due to their devotional service; *and determined to deliver the fallen souls rotting in material activities. The fallen souls are very eager to receive novel informations every day, and the transcendentalists like Vyāsadeva or Nārada can supply such eager people in general with unlimited news from the spiritual world. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that the material world is only a part of the whole creation, and that this earth is only a fragment of the whole material world. There are thousands and thousands of literary men all over the world, and they have created many, many thousands of literary works for the information of people in general for thousands and thousands of years. Unfortunately [break] ...effect of liberation from the pangs of material civilization, which is eating the vital parts of the human energy. The Bhagavad-gītā, which is the spoken message of the Lord Himself recorded by Vyāsadeva, and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is the transcendental narration of the activities of the same Lord Kṛṣṇa, which alone can satisfy the hankering desires of the living being for eternal peace and liberation from miseries. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is, therefore, meant for all the living beings all over the universe for total liberation from all kinds of material bondage. Such transcendental narrations of the pastimes of the Lord can only be described by liberated souls like Vyāsadeva and his bona fide representatives, who are completely merged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. Only to such devotees do the pastimes of the Lord and their transcendental nature become automatically manifest by dint of devotional service. No one else can either know or describe the acts of the Lord, even if they speculate on the subject for many, many years. The descriptions of the Bhāgavatam are so precise and accurate that whatever has been predicted in this great literature about five thousand years before is now exactly happening. Therefore the vision of the author comprehends past, present and future. Such liberated persons like Vyāsadeva are not only perfect by the power of vision and wisdom but also in aural reception, in thinking, feeling and all other sense activities. A liberated person possesses perfect senses, and with perfect senses only can one serve the sense proprietor, Hṛṣīkeśa, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is therefore the perfect description of the all-perfect Personality of Godhead by the all-perfect personality, Śrī Vyāsadeva, the compiler of the Vedas." *"Whatever you desire to describe which is separate in vision from the Lord simply reacts with different forms, names and results to agitate the mind, as the wind agitates a boat which has no resting place." Purport. "Śrī Vyāsadeva is the editor of all descriptions of the Vedic literatures, and thus he has described transcendental realization in different ways, namely by fruitive activities, speculative knowledge, mystic power and devotional service. Besides that, in his various Purāṇas he has recommended the worship of so many demigods in different forms and names. The result is that people in general are puzzled how to fix up their minds in the service of the Lord. They are always disturbed to find out the real path of self*-realization. Śrīla Nāradadeva is stressing this particular defect in the Vedic literatures compiled by Vyāsadeva, and thus he is trying to emphasize describing everything in relation with the Supreme Lord and no one else. In fact there is nothing existent except the Lord. The Lord is manifested in different expansions. He is the root of the complete tree. He is the stomach of the complete body. As such, pouring water on the root is the right process to water the tree, as much as feeding the stomach supplies energy to all parts of the body. Śrīla Vyāsadeva should not have compiled any Purāṇas other than the Bhāgavata Purāṇa, because a slight deviation from that may create havoc for self-realization. If a slight deviation can create such havoc, then what to speak of deliberate expansion of the separatist idea from the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead? The most defective part of worshiping demigods is that it creates a definite conception of pantheism, ending disastrously in many religious sects detrimental to the progress of the principles of the Bhāgavatam, which alone can give the accurate direction for self-realization in eternal relation with the Personality of Godhead by devotional service in transcendental love. The example of the boat disturbed by whirling wind is suitable in this respect. The diverted mind of the pantheist can never reach to the perfection of self-realization due to the disturbed condition of the selections of object." *"The people in general are naturally inclined to enjoy, and you have encouraged them in that way in the name of religion. This is verily condemned and is quite unreasonable. Because they are guided under your instructions, they will accept such activities in the name of religion and will hardly care for prohibitions." Purport. "Śrīla Vyāsadeva's compilation of various Vedic literatures on the basis of regulated performances of fruitive activities as depicted in the Mahābhārata and other literature is condemned herewith by Śrīla Nārada. The human beings, by long material association life after life, have a natural inclination by practice to endeavor to lord it over material energy. They have no sense of the responsibility of human life. This human form of life is a chance to get out of the clutches of illusory matter. The Vedas are meant for going back to Godhead, going back home. To revolve in the cycle of transmigration in a series of lives numbering 8,400,000 is an imprisoned life for the condemned conditioned souls. The human form of life is a chance to get out of this imprisoned life, and as such the only occupation of the human being is to reestablish his lost relationship with God. Under the circumstances, one should never be encouraged for making a plan for sense enjoyment in the name of religious function. Such diversion of the human energy results in a misguided civilization. Śrīla Vyāsadeva is the authority in Vedic explanations and the Mahābhārata, etc., and his encouragement in sense enjoyment in some form or other is a great barrier for spiritual advancement, because the people in general will not agree to renounce material activities which hold them in material bondage. At a certain stage of human civilization such material activities in the name of religion, as sacrificing animals in the name of yajña, were too much rampant. The Lord incarnated Himself as Buddha and decried the authority of the Vedas to stop animal sacrifice in the name of religion. This was foreseen by Nārada, and therefore he condemned such literatures. The flesh eaters still continue to perform animal sacrifice before some demigod or goddess in the name of religion, because in some of the Vedic literatures such regulated sacrifice is recommended. They are so recommended to discourage flesh eating, but gradually the purpose of such religious activities is forgotten and the slaughterhouse becomes prominent. This is because foolish materialistic men do not care to listen to others who are actually in a position to explain the Vedic rites. In the Vedas it is distinctly said that the perfection of life is never to be attained either by voluminous work or by accumulation of wealth or even by increasing the number of population, but it is so attained only by renunciation. The materialistic men do not care to listen to such injunctions. According to them, the so*-called renounced order of life is meant for those who are unable to earn their livelihood because of some corporeal defects or for persons who have failed to achieve prosperity in family life. In histories like the Mahābhārata, of course, there are topics on transcendental subjects along with material topics. The Bhagavad-gītā is there in the Mahābhārata. The whole idea of the Mahābhārata is culminated in the ultimate instructions of the Bhagavad-gītā, that one should relinquish all other engagements and should engage oneself solely and fully in surrendering unto the lotus feet of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. But men with materialistic tendencies are more attracted to politics, economics and philanthropic activities mentioned in the Mahābhārata than to the principle topic namely the Bhagavad-gītā. This compromising spirit of Vyāsadeva is directly condemned by Nārada, who advises him to directly proclaim that the prime necessity of human life is to realize one's eternal relation with the Lord and thus surrender unto Him without delay. A patient suffering from a particular type of malady is almost always inclined to accept eatables which are forbidden for him. The expert physician does not make any compromise with the patient by allowing him to take partially what he should not take at all. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said that a man attached to fruitive work should not be discouraged from his occupation, for gradually he may be elevated to the position of self-realization. This is sometimes applicable for those who are only dry empiric philosophers without spiritual realization, but those who are in the devotional line need not be always so advised." *"The Supreme Lord is unlimited. Only a very expert personality retired from the activities of material happiness deserves to understand this knowledge of spiritual values. Therefore those who spurare not so well situated due to material attachment should be shown the ways of transcendental realization by Your Goodness through descriptions of the transcendental activities of the Supreme Lord." Purport. "Theological science is a difficult subject, especially when it deals with the transcendental nature of God. It is not a subject matter to be understood by persons who are too much attached to material activities. Only the very expert, who have almost retired from materialistic activities, by culture of spiritual knowledge can be admitted to the study of this great science. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is clearly stated that out of many hundreds and thousands of men, only one person deserves to enter into transcendental realization, and out of many thousands of such transcendentally realized persons, only a few can understand the theological science specifically dealing with God as a person. Śrī Vyāsadeva is therefore advised by Nārada to describe the science of God directly by relating His transcendental activities. Vyāsadeva is himself a personality expert in this science, and he is unattached to material enjoyment; *therefore he is the right person to describe it. And Sukadeva Gosvāmī, the son of Vyāsadeva, is the right person to receive it. Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, and therefore it can react on the layman as medicinal doses. Because it contains the transcendental activities of the Lord, there is no difference between the Lord and the literature. The literature is the factual literary incarnation of the Lord so the laymen can hear the narration of the activities of the Lord. Thereby they are able to associate with the Lord and thus gradually become purified from material diseases. The expert devotees also can discover novel ways and means to convert the nondevotee in terms of particular time and circumstance. Devotional service is dynamic activity, and the expert devotees can find out competent means to inject it into the dull brains of the materialistic population. Such transcendental activities of the devotees for the service of the Lord can bring a new order of life to the foolish society of materialistic men. Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His subsequent followers exhibited expert dexterity in this connection. By following the same method one can bring the materialistic men of this age of quarrel into order for peaceful life and transcendental realization." Prabhupāda: What is the time now? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: About 7:20, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Should we take your leave? Prabhupāda: Any question regarding this? *Pradyumna: Says Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, therefore it can react on the layman as medicinal doses? Prabhupāda: If they simply hear, it will act as medicine. *Devotee (1): Vyāsadeva is called tri-kala-jñā*-he sees past, present and future. How is it that he sees the future, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: (microphone rattling) Just like common business. Bring that black (indistinct) Bhāgavata. Five thousand years before Bhāgavatam was written, and so many foretelling are there. (microphone rattling*-indistinct) If you like, you can keep... Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Twelfth Canto, Third Chapter. *Pradyumna: Tataś cānu*-dinaṁ dharmaḥ? Prabhupāda: Hmm, before that. Pradyumna: That is first chapter. *Prabhupāda: Read it, tataś cānu*-dinam, it is third chapter. Pradyumna: This is second. Prabhupāda: First chapter, by the end, what is written? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: What is the last verse you read? Pradyumna: Yes, this is the last verse. It says everyone is rājabhiś ca kṣayaṁ yāsyanti pīḍitāḥ. Prabhupāda: What is the note? *Pradyumna: (Śrīdhara Svāmī's commentary) kiṁ ca, tan nāthas te nātha yeṣaṁ te jana*-pada deśa-vartino manuṣyas tac-chīlācārādinas teṣam iva śrīlamācāro.... (vadaś ca tad vantaḥ.) *Prabhupāda: The purport is that in the Kali*-yuga, the government men, they will be all rogues and thieves. So the citizens also follow them. Tan-nethe, śīlācārya. Śīlācārya is their behavior. The politicians, secretaries and big, big officers going to the brothels and drinking wine and enjoying, then what others will not? They will... Go on, second chapter. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Note? *Pradyumna: Kali*-dharmān prapañcayati-tataś cetyādinā. Prabhupāda: That's all? Pradyumna: Yes. He doesn't say. *Prabhupāda: How things will deteriorate, that is explained here. Tataś cānu*-dinam? Pradyumna: Dharmaḥ satyaṁ śaucam... *Prabhupāda: With the progress of the Kali*-yuga... The Kali-yuga has begun after the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra. So five thousand years ago. The whole duration of life of Kali-yuga is thirty-two hundred thousands of years. Thirty-two hundred thousands of years, out of which we have passed only five thousand years. Still, the balance is twenty-seven hundred thousands of years. So with the progress of this age, these things will happen. What is that? Tataś cānu-dinam? Pradyumna: Dharmaḥ satyam. Prabhupāda: Dharmaḥ. People will gradually decrease in their sense of religiosity, dharmaḥ. Then? Pradyumna: Satyam. *Prabhupāda: They will be untruthful. Partly because there is no training of brahminical culture how to become truthful. People think that "What is the wrong there, I shall speak something untruth?" So that means the value of truthfulness will decrease. And the importance of religion will decrease. This is the symptoms of Kali*-yuga. Then? Pradyumna: Śaucam. Prabhupāda: Śaucam, cleanliness. People will become unclean more and more. Then? Pradyumna: Kṣamā. Prabhupāda: Kṣamā. Formerly saintly persons and leaders, they used to excuse. Now that, the sense of excusing, "All right, this man has done something, excuse him," that will decrease. The sense of religiosity, truthfulness, and? Pradyumna: Truthfulness, cleanliness, śaucam. Prabhupāda: Cleanliness. Pradyumna: Kṣamā. Prabhupāda: And kṣamā, pardon. Then? Pradyumna: Dayā. Prabhupāda: Dayā, mercifulness. People will have no mercy. It has already begun. If somebody is attacked, being killed, nobody takes care; *he goes in his own way. There is no mercy. There is no mercy to the animals. Now there is no mercy even to one child, one's own child, they killing. Just see how degraded, dayā. What to speak of no dayā, no mercy for the animals*-all right, you are not so advanced-but the mother's mercy to the child will be diminished. This is foretelling. This is called tri-kala-jñā. Who expected that mother will kill the child? But Vyāsadeva, five thousand years ago, said, "Yes, mercy will be reduced." Then? Pradyumna: Āyur. *Prabhupāda: Āyur, duration of life. The maximum duration of life in Kali*-yuga is hundred years, but who is living hundred years? It is being reduced, and it will be so reduced that if a man would live twenty years, he is an old man. It will come to that stage. Now it reducing, from hundred years to ninety years to eighty years. *Hari-śauri: The average is seventy*-three years now. Prabhupāda: Seventy, then sixty then fifty. In this way, if a man lives from twenty to thirty years he will be considered grand old man. These are the symptoms, āyur. Then? Pradyumna: Balam. Prabhupāda: And bodily strength. Bodily strength... In India we, in our childhood, I have seen when British rule was there, all the Europeans were coming, very tall and stout and strong. Now such Europeans are not coming. Even bodily strength reduced. Then? Pradyumna: Smṛtiḥ. *Prabhupāda: And memory. It will reduce. Just see, compare everything, religiosity and the power of mercifulness, pardoning, truthfulness, cleanliness, bodily strength, duration of life*-they're all reduced. Now who can say it is not reduced? Can you say? This is called tri-kala-jñā. Tatas, what is that? Cānu-dinaṁ rājan? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Kālena, in due course of time, all these items, there are eight items it will be reducing, reducing, reducing, reducing, reducing so much. So what is that? Devotee (2): They say that men are living longer now compared to five hundred or six hundred years ago. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): They say that men are living longer now. The scientists, they say that there's less disease. They say that a hundred years ago people had more disease than... *Prabhupāda: That these rascals say, we do not say. We have seen in our childhood that my grandmother, she died at the age of ninety*-six years. There was no disease. The scientists say that there was disease, now there is no disease? Devotee (2): They say there is less disease now. Prabhupāda: Less disease, everyone suffering from cancer. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They are building more hospitals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Not less. Prabhupāda: Just see. They're increasing number of hospitals, and there is no disease? Devotee (2): They say that a child has more of a chance of living now than... Prabhupāda: "They say," but what is the practical? They say all, as I repeatedly, pagale ke na bole chakole ke na khai (indistinct). A madman, what does he not say, and a goat, what does he not eat? So they are all madmen. (laughter) They can say all everything. Devotee (1): They are experimenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with genes now. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (1): You say that we are losing the qualities of memory, strength, but they are experimenting where they can isolate genes of persons who have those qualities and put on... Prabhupāda: But we have to see actually what is happening. Devotee (4): They are also transplanting livers and hearts, increasing the duration of life. Prabhupāda: So whatever they may do, things will happen like this. This is a fact. Can they increase the duration of life? People, can they make any scientific discovery that no man will die less than hundred years? Is there any such discovery? Hari-śauri: The only discoveries they have made so far are how to kill people quicker. Prabhupāda: Yes. Is there any discovery that here is a pill, you go on taking it, you'll not die before hundred years? Is there any discovery? Then what is the use of talking nonsense? They are reducing their life, that's a fact. And so far as mercy is concerned, we see how much it is reduced. The mother is killing child. Where is mercy now? So they may say anything like madman, but we see practically what is happening. Then? Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: So vittam, money. Money is the criterion, not family. Formerly, there was family, respectable family, aristocratic family, brāhmaṇa family, kṣatriya family. All these things are gone now. If you accumulate some money some way or other, then you are respectable, never mind what you are. That is Kali*-yuga symptom, that position in society, if you want to be respectable man, you somehow or other gather money. Never mind how we have gathered, what is the method. It doesn't matter. Get some money and you become respectable. Vittam eva hi. *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ. Prabhupāda: Ah, janmācāra. First of all, janma, the family, heredity, was taken into consideration, but that is now forgotten. Get money. Just like in England the British empire's policy was that you bring money from outside and deposit in the government treasury and you become lord. Is it not? Bring money, some way or other. So that was going on, exploiting, they used to go to the foreign countries and somehow or other accumulate money. Just like Lord Clive. He was a street boy, but he made some policy. In this way, diplomacy, he entered into Bengal and got some money, and Lord Clive, he became Lord Clive. So money is the criterion. Some way or other, bring money. That's all. That's a fact. These are the symptoms. Just try to understand. *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ. Prabhupāda: If you have money, then you are aristocratic, then whatever you do, it is all right. Janmācāra, then? Pradyumna: Guṇa. Prabhupāda: Guṇa. You are most qualified man. You may be a drunkard, you may be a prostitute hunter, whatever you may be, but because of money you are a qualified man. Then? *Pradyumna: Janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ. Prabhupāda: Go on. *Pradyumna: Dharma*-nyāya-vyavasthāyāṁ kāraṇaṁ balam eva hi. *Prabhupāda: Dharma*-nyāya. Now if you want justice, you can get it according to your desire, justice, if you have got money. That is going on. That if you bribe to the court's men and even to the judge or magistrate, you get justice accordingly. That is going on. Dharma ācāra. Then? Pradyumna: Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dāmpatya? Pradyumna: Dāmpatye abhirucir, hetur... *Prabhupāda: Abhirucir, yes. Now formerly marriage was a religious ceremony. Marriage was, this boy and this girl should be married, it is a religious function where the father and mother will see their horoscope and see if they are compatible, they will agree, they will live peacefully, so many things are there. Still, in India such things are calculated by the parents of the boy and the girl. But in this Kali*-yuga, dāmpatye abhirucir. Abhirucir means the boy and the girl, if he likes, if he says, that's all. No other calculation. And the, after three days after marriage, there is divorce. (laughter) Because abhirucir, "I like, I don't like," that's all. Now I like, and after three days I don't like, finished, business. In Chicago I saw a newspaper. One girl, within three weeks she has divorced two husbands. (laughter) Yes, I saw it in the newspaper. So this, formerly the father, mother used to see that this boy and this girl are going to be married. So by horoscope, by other circumstances, by family, cultural, by education, so many things, whether they will live peacefully. That was the understanding. Husband-wife means, a man requires a woman, a woman requires a man. They should be combined in such a way that they can live peacefully. If there is no disturbance of the mind, then they can make further progress in spiritual life. Therefore marriage is also necessary, and that must be properly done. This was the... Now there is no such consideration. The boys and girls are free, and if one likes the other... Dāmpatye, what is that? Pradyumna: Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Ruci. Ruci means liking. Then? Pradyumna: I think it is māyaiva vyāvahārike. *Prabhupāda: Ah, māyaiva vyāvahārike. In ordinary dealings there is cheating. This is Kali*-yuga. Ordinarily even when gentleman-gentleman, so-called gentlemen talking, he's trying to cheat him, he's trying to cheat him. By talking. And ordinarily. Māyaiva vyāvahārike. To talk with gentleman-gentleman, it is ordinary thing, but still there will be so many untruthfulness. Māyaiva vyāvahārike. Then? Pradyumna: Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir vipratve sūtram eva hi. Prabhupāda: Hnm. And woman is nice, man is nice, this should be considered by sex power. Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir. Then? Pradyumna: Vipratve sūtram eva hi. Prabhupāda: Vipratve sūtram eva hi. And there is a brāhmaṇa. What is the proof that he is a brāhmaṇa? He has got a sacred thread, that's all. Or thread. It may not be sacred; *purchased on the market. So at least we try to give a sacred thread by ceremony. But anyone can purchase a thread from the market, two*-paisa worth or one-cent worth, and become a brāhmaṇa. "You are a brāhmaṇa?" "Yes, you see my sacred thread?" (laughter) Finished. "What you are doing?" "Never mind." Don't be such brāhmaṇas, at least in our camp. You must follow the rules and regulations. Don't show that "I am now doubly initiated, sacred thread." Don't cheat in that way. Vipratve sūtram eva hi. Then? *Pradyumna: Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv. *Prabhupāda: Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv. There are āśramas, brahmacārī, sannyāsī, gṛhastha. So they have got different dresses. So Kali-yuga, simply by dress, he becomes a brahmacārī, he become a gṛhastha, he becomes a sannyāsī, simply by dress. What he is acting, nobody cares, that's all. Then? Pradyumna: Liṅgam, eva. Prabhupāda: Liṅgam means the external feature. This is the dress of a sannyāsī, this is the dress of a gṛhastha. Just like daṇḍa. Daṇḍa is the symptom that he is a sannyāsī. Then? *Pradyumna: Liṅgam evāśrama*-khyātāv anyonyāpatti-kāraṇam. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then? *Pradyumna: Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam. *Prabhupāda: Avṛttyā nyāya*-daurbalyam. If you have no money, then you cannot get justice. First of all you have to pay government so many percentage of money. Suppose somebody owes to you some money and he's not giving you. So if you have to go to the court, first of all you have to spend so much money, and if you have no money, then you cannot get your money back. You have to pay this lawyer's fee, the stand duty, and so on, so on. But if you say "I have no money," then forget justice. That's all. Avṛttyā nyāya-daurbalyam. Pradyumna: Pāṇḍitye cāpalaṁ vacaḥ. Prabhupāda: Paṇḍita, if you can speak very vehemently, any subject matter, people may or may not understand, and they will certify you: "Oh, this man is very learned." "What you have learned from him?" "Oh, I could not understand, but he's spoke very nicely." He spoke very nicely. What is that nicely? That cāpala. (Prabhupāda speaks some gibberish) You go on speaking like that, (devotees laugh) and people will appreciate, "Oh, he's a big speaker!" What have you learned from him? Then? Pradyumna: Anadhyataivasādhutve sādhutve dambha eva tu. Prabhupāda: And if you are poor man, then you are not honest. That is the criterion. "Oh, here is a..." When the poor man comes, you'll not give place at your place. If he wants to stay, you'll refuse, "No." Because he's poor, he's immediately accepted as dishonest. He may be honest or dishonest, but poverty is a sign for accepting a man as dishonest. Then? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hmm. Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Marriage will go on simply by agreement, not by qualification. Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Snānam eva prasādhanam. And if you take bath, then all bodily cleanliness is finished, that's all. Then? *Pradyumna: Dūre vāry*-ay... *Prabhupāda: Vāry*-ayanam. Pradyumna: Oh. Dūre... *Prabhupāda: Dūre vāry*-ayanaṁ tīrtham. Tīrtham. If you go... Just like there is Vṛndāvana and here is New Vrindaban. But if you spend ten thousand dollars and go to Vṛndāvana, then it is pilgrimage. And here is Vṛndāvana-candra. So that is not very important. Dūre vāry-ayanam. You have to go far, far away, (laughter) then it will be pilgrimage. In India, there is Ganges in Calcutta. But they go to Hardwar. Then it is pilgrimage. (laughter) The same Ganges, coming from Hardwar. Then? *Pradyumna: Dūre vāry*-ayanaṁ tīrthaṁ lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lāvaṇyam, now you know very well in the Western country. Beauty increases by having long hair. (laughter) I was just trying to recite this verse only, and now see how it is current. Who expected that this foretelling is there in the Bhāgavatam? To increase beauty, have long hair. Is it not? Now just see. How five thousand years this thing was foretold? That is the proof. There was no hippie movement then. (laughs) But Vyāsadeva foretold that in the Kali*-yuga if one keeps long hair he will think himself as very beautiful. There are so many things. Ultimately, with the advancement of Kali-yuga you'll have no food. Food means there will be no food grains, there will be no milk, there will be no sugar, like that. No fruits. If you get fruits, there will be no pulp, it is simply seeds. These things are there. You get a mango, but a mango means simply the big seed, that's all. So how can you check it? If nature's way, things are going to happen like that, what the scientists will do? If there is no rice, no wheat, will the scientists...? They can say replace with a pill, but they cannot produce wheat or rice or dahl or milk, sugar. That is not possible. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? They have fashioned a way for the spacemen that they can drink their own urine and eat their own stool. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the most scientific improvement. (laughter) Yes. That they can do. (laughter) By scientific improvement, they can drink their own urine, very tasty. That is possible. Devotee (1): With all these disqualifications, how can the general mass of people take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only remedy. That is stated here. You'll find this verse, *It is, the Kali*-yuga, it is an ocean of faults. How...? Suppose all over your body there are boils. So where you will apply ointment? You just dip down. (laughter) (end) *Garden Discussion on Bhagavad*-gétä Sixteenth Chapter--June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Performance of sacrifice, study of the Vedas, austerity and simplicity, nonviolence, truthfulness, freedom from anger, renunciation, tranquillity, aversion to fault*-finding, compassion and freedom from covetousness, gentleness, modesty and steady determination, vigor, forgiveness, fortitude, cleanliness, freedom from envy and the passion for honor-these transcendental qualities, O son of Bharata, belong to godly men endowed with divine nature." (purport) "In the beginning of the Fifteenth Chapter the banyan tree of this material world was explained. The extra roots coming out of it were compared to the activities of the living entities, some auspicious, some inauspicious. In the Ninth Chapter also the devas, or godly, and asuras, the ungodly or demons, were explained. Now according to Vedic rites, activities in the mode of goodness are considered auspicious for progress on the path of liberation, and such activities are known as daivī prakṛti, transcendental by nature. Those who are situated in the transcendental nature make progress..." *Prabhupāda: The defect of modern civilization is that they have no idea about liberation. Neither they have any idea about transmigration of the soul. From the very root, they are defective. They are thinking... Just like animals. Dog is thinking, "I am this dog. I am born dog and I'll die, that's finished, everything." He cannot think that "I can become also man." He cannot think that. So the modern civilization, they cannot think even that there is next life and we can go... They have got the tendency to go to the higher planetary system, moon. Artificially, they are trying, but they do not know. Just like they can go to any planet, sarvaga. Yānti deva*-vratā devān pitṛn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.25]. They do not know this, although they have got the tendency to go. But they do not know how to go, positively what are the position of the different planets or Vaikuṇṭhaloka or liberation or next life, transmigration-nothing of the sort. Simply like dogs. Now consider this point, whether I'm speaking right or wrong. I know I am speaking the right thing, but if you deny, then you talk amongst yourselves. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, they think that liberation means that you can do anything you like, that you are free from any moral or ethic... Prabhupāda: That is the rascaldom. That is rascaldom. Just like in prison house, if a prisoner thinks that he can do whatever he likes, that is rascaldom. That is going on. The modern civilization is rascaldom. He is seeing practically that he's under the control of material nature, and still he thinks that "I can do whatever I like." This is rascaldom. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Christian conception of salvation was more one of being saved from hell rather than an attraction for some transcendental reality. Prabhupāda: Christian conception... Mass of people, they do not know what is hell because they are living in the hell already. That was the story. When hell was described, he was undisturbed, but when he was informed that there was no newspaper in hell then he became... "Horrible. How one can live there without newspaper?" So so far hellish condition is there now... Pradyumna, where is Pradyumna Mahārāja? Kuladri: He is showering. *Prabhupāda: He was describing about that factory. So they are working in the factory, what do they care for hell? Even if we go to hell, they will get some good salary, that's all. Money required, then I can drink nicely. The standard is there. Now this qualification, abhayaṁ sattva*-saṁśuddhir, what is that? It does not strike them at all, these qualities are high qualities. Is it not? This is the... What is the translation? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Fearlessness, purification of one's existence." *Prabhupāda: And who is fearless? Everyone is fearful. And fearlessness is good quality, who understands it? Ahara*-nidra-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca, this is animal life. To eat, sleep, sex and become fearful, that is animal life. And one has to become fearless. So who cares for it? They are thinking to become fearless means to keep gun. That is also one way. Then, fearlessness and...? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Purification of one's existence." Prabhupāda: That they do not know. When they fall sick, then they want to purify, go to the physician, but his whole life is impure, he doesn't know. Because it is impure, therefore they are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. That they do not know. But if you scrutinizingly examine all these different items of advancement of life, the modern man has no idea. That is being explained in this chapter. Therefore there is no such education, neither people are interested. Now higher art classes in the colleges, universities, no student will join. They are simply learning technological process. Go on. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Those who are situated in the transcendental nature make progress on the path of liberation. For those who are acting in the modes of passion and ignorance, on the other hand, there is no possibility of liberation. Either they will have to remain in this material..." Prabhupāda: They say "What we care for liberation? It is troublesome. You have to sacrifice so many things. We don't want liberation. That is nonsensical. You keep your liberation. We don't want." This is the problem. As you said, liberation means "Whatever I like I will do." But that is, actually, he cannot do that. But he's thinking that he's liberated. Can he do that, whatever he likes? But still he's... Therefore rascal. Dog's life. The dog is jumping, barking, that "I'm free now." But he forgets that as soon as the master will call and chain him, he'll do it. But he's thinking that "I'm liberated." This is the problem. What is his liberation? He does not know what is liberation. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Either they will have to remain in this material world as human beings or they will descend among the species of the animals or even lower life forms." Prabhupāda: Ah, they will say, "All bogus. This life, finished. I am free." That is the problem. This is their position. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We were finding, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that they could not defeat varṇāśrama dharma. They had no society like varṇāśrama. In the colleges, they could not understand this body, but we showed them how the society could be arranged harmoniously, and they had no alternative. Their ideas on how to structure society for everyone's happiness, they have no good ideas. So that preaching platform they could understand, varṇāśrama. Prabhupāda: They'll understand. I'm just pointing out the difficulties of your preaching. You'll have to face all these difficulties. They're like cats and dogs. They are not even human beings. Therefore the business is little hard job. You have to deal with cats and dogs. But still there is hope, because they have got this human form of life. There is hope. It is not hopeless. Don't be disappointed, but this is the job. You have to meet with cats and dogs. That is my point. When you go to preach you must know that "I've come to preach among cats and dogs, and I have to deal with them carefully; otherwise, they will bark." (laughter) Therefore I wrote that poetry in disappointment before entering in your country, that "What they will understand, this philosophy?" Hmm, go on. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "In this Sixteenth Chapter the Lord explains both the transcendental nature and its attendant qualities as well as the demoniac nature and its qualities. He also explains the advantages and disadvantages of these qualities. The word abhijātasya in reference to one born of transcendental qualities or godly tendencies is very significant. To beget a child in a godly atmosphere is known in the Vedic scriptures as garbhādhāna*-saṁskāra. If the parents want a child in the godly qualities they should follow the ten principles of the human being. In Bhagavad-gītā we have studied also before that sex life for begetting a good child is Kṛṣṇa Himself. Sex life is not condemned provided the process is used in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness at least should not beget children like cats and dogs but should beget them so they may become Kṛṣṇa conscious after birth. That should be the advantage of children born of a mother or father absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The social institution known as varṇāśrama dharma, the institution dividing society into four divisions or castes, is not meant to divide human society according to birth. Such divisions are in terms of educational qualifications. They are to keep the society in a state of peace and prosperity. The qualities mentioned herein are explained as transcendental qualities meant for making a person progress in spiritual understanding so he can get liberated from the material world." Prabhupāda: So where is that institution to train people to acquire these transcendental qualities? There is no such institution. We are attempting to qualify the man in transcendental qualities. This is the only institution. Otherwise, where it is? I don't think, throughout the whole world, there is any institution to train the students in transcendental qualities. Who cares for transcendental qualities? Go on. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "In the varṇāśrama institution the sannyāsī, or the person in the renounced order of life, is considered to be the head or the spiritual master of all the social statuses and orders. A brāhmaṇa is considered to be the spiritual master of the three other sections of society, namely the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. But a sannyāsī, who is on the top of the institution, is considered to be the spiritual master of the brāhmaṇas also. For a sannyāsī the first qualification should be fearlessness. Because a sannyāsī has to be alone without any support or guarantee of support, he has simply to depend on the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he thinks 'After leaving my connections, who will protect me?' he should not accept the renounced order of life. One must be fully convinced that Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His localized aspect as Paramātmā, is always within, and He is seeing everything, and that He always knows what one intends to do. One must have this firm conviction that Kṛṣṇa as Paramātmā will take care of a soul surrendered unto Him. 'I shall never be alone,' one should think..." Prabhupāda: Hmm. Don't divert your attention. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: " 'I shall never be alone,' one should think. 'Even if I live in the darkest regions of a forest, I shall be accompanied by Kṛṣṇa, and He will give me all protection.' That conviction is called abhayam, 'without fear.' This state of mind is necessary for a person in the renounced order of life. Then he has to purify his existence. There are so many rules and regulations to be followed in the renounced order of life. Most important of all, a sannyāsī is strictly forbidden to have any intimate relationship with a woman. He is even forbidden to talk with a woman in a secluded place. Lord Caitanya was an ideal sannyāsī, and when He was at Purī His feminine devotees could not even come near to offer their respects. They were advised to bow down from a distant place. This is not a sign of hatred for women as a class, but it is a stricture imposed on a sannyāsī not to have close connections with women. One has to follow the rules and regulations of a particular status of life in order to purify his existence. For a sannyāsī, intimate relations with a woman and possessions of wealth for sense gratification are strictly forbidden. The ideal sannyāsī was Lord Caitanya Himself, and we can learn from His life that He was very strict in regards to women. Although He is considered to be the most liberal incarnation of Godhead, accepting the most fallen conditioned souls, He strictly followed the rules and regulations of the sannyāsa order of life in connection with association with women. One of His personal associates, namely Choṭa Haridāsa, was personally associated with Lord Caitanya along with His other confidential personal associates. But somehow or other this Choṭa Haridāsa looked lustfully on a young woman, and Lord Caitanya was so strict that He at once rejected him from the society of His personal associates. Lord Caitanya said, 'For a sannyāsī, or anyone who is aspiring to get out of the clutches of material nature and trying to elevate himself to the spiritual nature and go back to home, back to Godhead, for him, looking towards material possessions and women for sense gratification-not even enjoying them, but just looking toward them with such a propensity*-is so condemned that he had better commit suicide before experiencing such illicit desires.' So these are the processes for purification. The next item is jñāna-yoga-vyavasthitiḥ: being engaged in the cultivation of knowledge. Sannyāsī life is meant for distributing knowledge to the householders and others who have forgotten their real life of spiritual advancement. A sannyāsī is supposed to beg from door to door for his livelihood, but that does not mean that he is a beggar. Humility is also one of the qualifications of a transcendentally situated person, and out of sheer humility the sannyāsī goes from door to door, not exactly for the purpose of begging but to see the householders and awaken them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the duty of a sannyāsī. If he is actually advanced and so ordered by his spiritual master, he should preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness with logic and understanding." Prabhupāda: As a gentleman, if you go to somebody's house, you require his permission, but India, still, a sannyāsī doesn't require any permission. He can enter in any householder's house: "Mother, give me some food." This is the introduction. Not that he has gone there for food, but easy introduction. And generally the householder will receive a sannyāsī, "Yes, Swamiji, come here, sit down." They will offer obeisances and then they begin talks. This is the meaning. Not that he is hankering after food. This is only introduction. He's not a beggar. But people take advantage of this dress because they think that "Without any work I can beg and live." That is going on in India. So many rascals, they are taking this sannyāsī dress and living at the cost of others. Therefore people have become disgusted. They have no knowledge to preach. Yes, go on. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "If he is actually advanced and so ordered by his spiritual master, he should preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness with logic and understanding. And if he is not so advanced, he should not accept the renounced order of life. But even if he has accepted the renounced order of life without sufficient knowledge, he should engage himself fully in hearing from a bona fide spiritual master to cultivate knowledge. A sannyāsī, or one in the renounced order of life, must be situated in fearlessness, sattva*-saṁśuddhiḥ (purity), and jñāna-yoga (knowledge). The next item is charity. Charity is meant for the householders. The householders should earn a livelihood by honorable means and spend fifty percent of their income to propagate Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world. Thus a householder should give in charity to such institutional societies that are engaged in that way. Charity should be given to the right receiver. There are different kinds of charities, as will be explained later: charity in the modes of goodness, passion and ignorance. Charity in the mode of goodness is recommended by the scriptures, but charity in the modes of passion and ignorance is not recommended, because it is simply a waste of money. Charity should be given only to propagate Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world. That is charity in the mode of goodness. Then as far as dama (self-control) is concerned, it is not only meant for other orders of religious society, but it is especially meant for the householder. Although he has a wife, the householder should not use his senses for sex life unnecessarily. There are restrictions for the householders even in sex life, which should only be engaged for the propagation of children. If he does not require children, he should not enjoy sex life with his wife. Modern society enjoys sex life with contraceptive methods or more abominable methods to avoid the responsibility of children. This is not in the transcendental quality, but it is demoniac. If anyone, even if he is a householder, wants to make progress in spiritual life, he must control his sex life and should not beget a child without the purpose of serving Kṛṣṇa. If he is able to beget children who will be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can produce hundreds of children, but without this capacity one should not indulge only for sense pleasure. Sacrifice is another item to be performed by the householders, because sacrifices require a large amount of money. Other orders of life, namely the brahmacarya, the vānaprastha and sannyāsa, have no money; *they live by begging. So performance of different types of sacrifice is meant for the householder. They should perform agni*-hotra sacrifices as enjoined in the Vedic literature, but such sacrifices at the present moment are very expensive, and it is not possible for any householder to perform them. The best sacrifice recommended in this age is called saṅkīrtana-yajña, the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, this is the best and the most inexpensive sacrifice. Everyone can adopt it and derive benefit. So these three items, namely charity, sense control and performance of sacrifice, are meant for the householder. Then svādhyāya (Vedic study), and tapas (austerity), and ārjavam (gentleness or simplicity) are meant for the brahmacarya, or student life. Brahmacārīs should have no connection with women; they should live a life of celibacy and engage the mind in the study of Vedic literature for the cultivation of spiritual knowledge. This is called svādhyāya. Tapas, or austerity, is especially meant for the retired life. One should not remain a householder throughout his whole life; *he must always remember that there are four divisions of life: brahmācārya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. So after gṛhastha, householder life, one should retire. If one lives for a hundred years, one should spend twenty*-five years in student life, twenty-five years in household life, twenty-five in retired life and twenty-five in the renounced order of life. These are the regulations of the Vedic religious discipline. A man retired from household life must practice austerities of the body, mind and tongue. That is tapasya. The entire varṇāśrama dharma society is meant for tapasya. Without tapasya, or austerity, no human being can get liberation. The theory that there is no need of austerity in life, that one can go on speculating and everything will be nice, is neither recommended in the Vedic literature nor in the Bhagavad-gītā. Such theories are manufactured by show-bottle spiritualists who are trying to gather more followers. If there are restrictions, rules and regulations, people will not become attracted. Therefore those who want followers in the name of religion, just to have a show only, don't restrict the lives of their students, nor their own lives. But that method is not approved by the Vedas. As far as simplicity is concerned, not only should a particular order of life follow this principle, but every member, be he in the brahmacārī-āśrama, or gṛhastha-āśrama, or vānaprastha-āśrama. One must live very simply. Ahiṁsā means not arresting the progressive life of any living entity. One should not think that since the spirit spark is never killed even after the killing of the body, there is no harm in killing animals for sense gratification. People are now addicted to eating animals, in spite of having an ample supply of grains, fruits and milk. There is no necessity for animal killing. This injunction is for everyone. When there is no other alternative, one may kill an animal, but it should be offered in sacrifice. At any rate, when there is an ample food supply for humanity, persons who are desiring to make advancement in spiritual realization should not commit violence to animals. Real ahiṁsā means not checking anyone's progressive life. The animals are also making progress in their evolutionary life by transmigrating from one category of animal life to another. If a particular animal is killed, then his progress is checked. If an animal is staying in a particular body for so many days or so many years and is untimely killed, then he has to come back again in that form of life to complete the remaining days in order to be promoted to another species of life. So their progress should not checked simply to satisfy one's palate. This is called ahiṁsā. Satyam: This word means that one should not distort the truth for some personal interest. In Vedic literature there are some difficult passages, but the meaning or the purpose should be learned from a bona fide spiritual master. That is the process for understanding the Vedas. Śruti means that one should hear from the authority. One should not construe some interpretation for his personal interest. There are so many commentaries on Bhagavad-gītā that misinterpret the original text. The real import of the word should be presented, and that should be learned from a bona fide spiritual master. Akrodha means to check anger. Even if there is provocation, one should be tolerant, for once one becomes angry his whole body becomes polluted. Anger is the product of the modes of passion and lust, so one who is transcendentally situated should check himself from anger. Apaiśunam means that one should not find fault with others or correct them unnecessarily. Of course, to call a thief a thief is not fault-finding, but to call an honest person a thief is very much offensive for one who is making advancement in spiritual life. Hrī me *"Arrogance, pride, anger, conceit, harshness and ignorance*-these qualities belong to those of demoniac nature, O son of Pṛthā." (purport) "In this verse the royal road to hell is described. The demoniac want to make a show of religion and advancement in spiritual science, although they do not follow the principles. They are always arrogant or proud in possessing some type of education or so much wealth. They desire to be worshiped by others, and they demand respectability, although they do not command respect. Over trifles they become very angry and speak harshly, not gently. They do not know what should be done and what should not be done. They do everything whimsically, according to their own desire, and they do not recognize any authority. These demoniac qualities are taken on by them from the very beginning of their bodies in the wombs of their mothers, and as they grow they manifest all these inauspicious qualities." Prabhupāda: So your answer is there. They think liberty means whatever he likes. That is a demoniac person(?). Now discuss this. Devotee (1): There's one... You've quoted Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, and he describes a scholar. A scholar is a man who can see all women as his mother, and all living entities, he treats them equally, and other's property as trash. So today's civilization is mistaking a scholar for a rogue and a rogue for a scholar, and here Kṛṣṇa is explaining a godly man, the qualities of a scholar and gentleman, whereas today's civilization is upside down, backwards. Prabhupāda: Therefore preaching is required. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They feel that godly qualities are a sign of weakness. And the demoniac qualities is a good sign. Prabhupāda: Heroism. That is heroism. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, heroism. In this purport, Śrīla Prabhupāda perfectly describes our student life. As students, we were doing everything whimsically. Or we would accept bad things. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja recommends from the beginning of student life, kaumāra ācaret prajño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1], they should be trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That Prahlāda Mahārāja recommends. Now from the very beginning of student life, because there is no education, he is trained up as demon. What can be done? So many things have to be reformed by pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These are Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, whatever is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā that is within the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have to do all this. Water. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "The transcenspurdental qualities are conducive to liberation, whereas the demonic qualities make for bondage. Do not worry, O son of Pāṇḍu, for you are born with the divine qualities." (purport) "Lord Kṛṣṇa encouraged Arjuna by telling him that he was not born with demoniac qualities. His involvement in the fight was not demoniac, because he was considering the pro's and con's. He was considering whether respectable persons such as Bhīṣma and Droṇa should be killed or not, so he was not acting under the influence of anger, false prestige, or harshness. Therefore he was not of the quality of the demons. For a kṣatriya, a military man, shooting arrows at the enemy is considered transcendental, and refraining from such a duty is demoniac. Therefore, there was no cause for Arjuna to lament. Anyone who performs the regulated principles of the different orders of life is transcendentally situated." Prabhupāda: Discuss on this point. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They may say that we have arbitrarily given some specific duties to different people. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They may say that we have arbitrarily given, that the kṣatriyas are supposed to kill, like this. But actually everyone should be a good man. *Prabhupāda: Not arbitrarily. It is given by Kṛṣṇa. It is not arbitrary. By the supreme order. How they can say it is arbitrary? Then what is the use of referring to Bhagavad*-gītā? Things may not be arbitrary, whimsical, therefore we have to take reference from Bhagavad-gītā. Lawbook. When a judge gives his judgement, he does not give it arbitrarily. There is lawbooks. So there is no question of arbitrary. The reference is there. How you can say it is arbitrary? That is not a fact. Śāstra-vidhi. Rather, if you don't care for śāstra-vidhi, then he'll never be successful. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya, in this chapter you'll find. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination." Prabhupāda: We do not give anything arbitrary. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Actually this is a fact, because we see that by following their authorities, they are becoming more and more unhappy, and by following our authorities, we are becoming more and more happy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: So the result is there even in this life we can see, what to speak beyond this life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they can say everyone is not made happy by a war. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They can say that, for example, the wives of Duryodhana and all of these people who were killed, they were not made happy. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No, dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre... [Bg. 1.1]. Prabhupāda: They were happy. Otherwise they could not fight. They are not Vietnam soldiers, when they are attacked they are going away. They are not like that. They are determined that "I'll either lay down life or gain victory." That is their... They were not afraid of fighting. Do you think they were afraid of fighting? That is real kṣatriya. Yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. That is real kṣatriya training. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I mean to say that they may consider that this is a selfish type of happiness, though. Not taking into consideration... Prabhupāda: They may think... They are rascals, they cannot think anything. We haven't got to reply all of them. Because they are rascals. They can talk all nonsense. We haven't got to take care of... Just like a child, he's talking so many foolish things. Sometimes we reply, "Yes, yes, we know." But we don't take seriously anything, anything spoken by a child. So these rascals may go on talking so many things, but we haven't got to take care of all of them. We have to do our own business. Let the dog bark on, the caravan will pass. So not that we have to take care of the barking of the dog always. That is not... Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "O son of Pṛthā, in this world there are two kinds of created beings. One is called the divine and the other demoniac. I have already explained to you at length the divine qualities. Now hear from Me of the demoniac." (purport) "Lord Kṛṣṇa, having assured Arjuna that he was born with the divine qualities, is now describing the demoniac way. The conditioned living entities are divided into two classes in this world. Those who are born with divine qualities follow a regulated life; that is to say they abide by the injunctions in scriptures and by the authorities. One should perform duties in the light of authoritative scripture. This mentality is called divine. One who does not follow the regulative principles as they are laid down in the scriptures and who acts according to his whims is called demoniac, or asuric. There is no other criterion but obedience to the regulative principles of scriptures. It is mentioned in Vedic literature that both the demigods and the demons are born of the Prajapati; the only difference is that one class obeys the Vedic injunctions and the other does not." *"Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them." Purport. "In every civilized human society there is some set of scriptural rules and regulations which are followed from the beginning, especially among the Aryans, those who adopt the Vedic civilization and who are known as the most advanced civilized peoples. Those who do not follow the scriptural injunctions are supposed to be demons. Therefore it is stated here that the demons do not know the scriptural rules, nor do they have any inclination to follow them. Most of them do not know them, and even if some of them know, they have not the tendency to follow them. They have no faith, nor are they willing to act in terms of Vedic injunctions. The demons are not clean either externally or internally. One should always be very careful to keep his body clean by bathing, brushing teeth, changing clothes, etc. As far as internal cleanliness is concerned, one should always remember the holy names of God and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. The demons neither like nor follow all these rules for external and internal cleanliness. As for behavior, there are many rules and regulations guiding human behavior, such as the Manu*-saṁhitā, which is the lawbook of the human race. Even up to today those who are Hindu follow the Manu-saṁhitā. Laws of inheritance and other legalities are derived from this book. Now, in the Manu-saṁhitā it is clearly stated that a woman should not be given freedom. That does not mean that women are to be kept as slaves, but they are like children. Children are not given freedom, but that does not mean they are kept as slaves. The demons have now neglected such injunctions and they think that women should be given as much freedom as men. However this has not improved the social condition of the world. Actually a woman should be given protection at every stage of life. She should be given protection by her father in her younger days, by the husband in her youth, and by the grown-up sons in her old age. This is proper social behavior according to the Manu-saṁhitā. But modern education has artificially devised a puffed-up concept of womanly life, and therefore marriage is practically now an imagination in human society. Nor is the moral condition of woman very good now. The demons, therefore, do not accept any instruction which is good for society, and because they do not follow the experience of great sages and the rules and regulations laid down by the sages, the social condition of the demoniac people is very miserable." *"They say that this world is unreal, that there is no foundation and that there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire and has no cause other than lust." Purport. "The demoniac conclude that the world is phantasmagoria. There is no cause, no effect, no controller, no purpose: everything is unreal. They say that this cosmic manifestation arises due to chance material actions and reactions. They do not think that the world was created by God for a certain purpose. They have their own theory that the world has come about in its own way and that there's no reason to believe that there is a God behind it. For them there is no difference between spirit and matter, and they do not accept the supreme spirit. Everything is matter only, and the whole cosmos is supposed to be a mass of ignorance. According to them, everything is void, and whatever manifestation exists is due to our ignorance in perception. They take it for granted that all manifestation of diversity is a display of ignorance. Just as in a dream we may create so many things which actually have no existence, so when we are awake we shall see that everything is simply a dream. But factually, although the demons say that life is a dream, they are very expert in enjoying the dream. And so, instead of acquiring knowledge, they become more and more implicated in their dreamland. They conclude that as a child is simply the result of sexual intercourse between man and woman, this world is born without any soul. For them it is only a combination of matter that has produced the living entities, and there is no question of the existence of the soul. As many living creatures come out from perspiration and from a dead body without any cause, similarly, the whole living world has come out of the material combinations of the cosmic manifestation. Therefore material nature is the cause of this manifestation, and there is no other cause. They do not believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa in Bhagavad*-gītā: mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. 'Under My direction the whole material world is moving.' In other words, amongst the demons there is no perfect knowledge of the creation of the world; every one of them has a particular theory of his own. According to them, one interpretation of the scriptures is as good as another, for they do not believe in a standard understanding of the scriptural injunctions." Prabhupāda: This is the right description of modern age. Exact. Hmm? What is that? Etāṁ dṛṣṭim avaṣṭabhya. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Naṣṭātmāno. Prabhupāda: Naṣṭātmāno, they have lost their soul. Naṣṭātmā. There is no information about the soul. Naṣṭātmānaḥ. God and soul is lost: "There is no God, there is no cause of this creation, there was a chunk," like that. Like that. Etāṁ dṛṣṭim avastabhya. Read it? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: *Prabhupāda: Naṣṭātmānaḥ, they have lost their self. Naṣṭātmāno alpa*-buddhayaḥ. A rascal, no intelligence. Just like cats and dogs. If these four principles are available, bas, finished. Life is perfect success. Eating, sleeping, mating. Alpa-buddhayaḥ, animal. Then? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Prabhavanty. Prabhupāda: Prabhavanty. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Ugra*-karmāṇaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ugra*-karmāṇaḥ, the factory. This is ugra-karma. Pradyumna was describing ugra-karma, hellish. Little karma, just wheat is growing, a little tilling, that is sufficient. What is the use of opening big, big factory? Ugra-karma. What it has helped? You were talking on behalf of them. What it has helped? Keeping them. Innocent men, women, they are kept in that factory simply for livelihood. A little work will provide his needs. Nature has given so much facility. They can grow little food anywhere. The cows are there in the pasturing ground. Take milk and live peacefully. Why you open factories? What is the use? Keeping them in hellish condition of life. So this is the description. Now discuss these points. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: You say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they engage in unbeneficial horrible works meant to destroy the world and that this refers to the atomic weapons. This is so true. Prabhupāda: Yes, God's speaking, Kṛṣṇa is speaking. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I was studying this nuclear energy in college, thinking that it would save the world. That by the energy they could make bigger tomatoes, bigger corn, and... Prabhupāda: Bigger deaths. Conclusion is bigger deaths. Everything big. One man was dying, now many hundreds of thousands will die. Bigger deaths. You did not consider it bigger death? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: It was very frustrating, though, because for everything they were trying to do good, they found so many more things bad were coming. Prabhupāda: That is... Karma jagat means that if you have to raise this house, then you have to cut the wood somewhere. You have to destroy somewhere, and then you can make house. You have to adjust things like that. You cannot create. This house was constructed, created, by destroying somewhere else. Is it not? So where is your creation? Creation is God's creation. He has created everything, and if you want to create, you have to destroy somewhere. That is karma. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes these people are called duṣkṛtina. And you've mentioned that the duṣkṛtina, actually he has some intelligence, misused. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Intelligence. After destroying the wood, you use your intelligence to construct this house. You have intelligence, there is no doubt. Human being must have intelligence. But that intelligence is given to him for getting out of the clutches of birth, death, old age and disease. He's not utilizing that intelligence for that purpose, therefore duṣkṛtina. Intelligence he has got. We don't say that modern world, they are unintelligent, fools. No, they have got intelligence. But the intelligence is being utilized for duṣkarya, which he should not have done. Duṣkarya. Karya and duṣkarya*-work and bad work. His intelligence was given so that he could get relief from these clutches of birth, death, old age and disease, but that he's not utilizing. He's opening factory and creating another bad atmosphere. Therefore duṣkṛtina. To open a factory requires intelligence. So many machine is working, that's all right, but how this intelligence being used? To keep man in a hellish condition of life. Therefore duṣkṛtina. Devotee (2): They are also very narrowminded. Just like they open a factory, but they're not thinking of the effects of the factory. Prabhupāda: Because therefore duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, next word. Because they are mūḍha, therefore duṣkṛtina. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At the same time it's said that Kṛṣṇa gives the intelligence, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam. Prabhupāda: You wanted to do, Kṛṣṇa gives you intelligence. You want to manufacture a very complicated machine, Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence, "All right, do like this, manufacture." He'll not hear Kṛṣṇa, sarva dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. That is Kṛṣṇa's intelligence, that "You rascal, give up this all this." But he'll not do it. Want to do it, but Kṛṣṇa is so kind, "All right, do it, see the effect." Without Kṛṣṇa's help we cannot do anything. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you have called the politicians representative of Hiraṇyakaśipu, they are trying to become immortal. Just like devotees, but without... Prabhupāda: Yes, this... There are two kinds of men already described, daiva asura eva ca. These two kinds of activities will go on. This is material world. You cannot find out cent percent perfect man. That is not possible. There are a class of men, imperfect, will be there. But it is being described who is imperfect and who is perfect. That you have to select. You cannot clear this material world of imperfect persons. That is not possible. There will be remain, but you must know who is perfect and who is imperfect. And make your choice, whether you want to remain imperfect or want to make progress to become perfect. That is up to you. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It seems almost like a contradiction in one sense, that prabhavanti, that they flourish and at the same time, ksayaya. Prabhupāda: Prabhavanty, materially, materially. Just like when you go to a modern city and say, "Oh, how developed," prabhavanty. But what kind of prabhavanty? That is next word, jagato 'hitāḥ, to destroy this world. So their prabhavanty in the opposite direction. That is not prabhavanty actually. Prabhavanty in the material sense, but what is the purpose, what is the end? Jagato 'hitāḥ. There are two kinds of progress, to hell, to heaven. Hari-śauri: Fifty years ago they were thinking it was progress to build big skyscrapers; now it's so hellish in the cities, everybody is moving out. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Actually, when there are so many skyscraper buildings, it is hell. The natural air is obstructed. In Bombay you'll see. If you are in the top floor you have got little facility; in the lower floor it is hell. If there are several skyscraper building, in the first floor, second floor, it is simply hell. No air. Simply you have to run on this electric fan. You cannot see the sky. Therefore it is meant skyscraper? What is scraper? What is the meaning? Hari-śauri: It touches, touching the sky. Prabhupāda: So you have touched the sky in such a way I cannot see even. (laughs) This is the result. You demon, you have captured the sky, so I have no opportunity to see even. Always electric light. Now we see the sky, the sun, how nice it is. This is life. Green, down and up, clear sky, sun, this is life. We get rejuvenation in this atmosphere. What is this nonsense, all skyscraper building, no air, no light? Jagato 'hitāḥ. The mind becomes crippled, the health becomes deteriorated, children cannot see even the sky, everything is spoiled. Kulādri: Every day in the city they make a report, pollution report. And they say you should go outside or not go outside. Some days it is not good for your health to leave your home. Devotee (1): They are also selling fresh air, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Fresh air? (laughter) Fresh water, also. Hari-śauri: In Tokyo there are special machines you can get air, clean water. Prabhupāda: Fresh, by cleaning the urine? Now they are doing that. Fresh water by cleaning urine. Fat derived from stool. Yes, German people did it. Fat extracted from stool. Scientifically. You can use it with butter very nicely on your bread. This is going on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of the materialists may argue that these activities are not all that unbeneficial. For example, they have made a tractor, and in America they can produce so many grains, so much so that practically they could feed the world. Prabhupāda: Why do they not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because their mentality is very abominable. Prabhupāda: Do that. There are so many overpopulation, and you can do it in America. So much land lying vacant here. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Better to put the people in factories in the fields. If they are going to work, let them work growing grain and milking the cows. Prabhupāda: Yes, then they will live very happily. That will not do. Jagato 'hitāḥ. Read it. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ Prabhupāda: Kṣayāya, kṣayāya means all for ruination, bringing ruin, ruination. So save them from ruination. Actually I've seen in New York, some quarter so nasty. In London also, so nasty. Disaster. So many storefront, lying vacant houses. I was, when I had no business, I was loitering to see the city. Hellish condition. They said it was risky, but I did not know that it was risky. One electrician, he was my friend, "Oh, Swamiji, you are going in those quarters? It is not for you, don't." "Oh, I do not care. What I have got they will take from me?" So I was loitering in New York City. So many nasty quarters. London also. So many houses vacant. Kulādri: There is more chance of being killed in New York City than in the jungle. Prabhupāda: Yes. They warned me not to go to the Central Park in the evening. They say at night nobody goes there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Except the thieves and killers. Prabhupāda: Just see. Such an important city, and such important park, and nobody can go. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is there any stage at which these atheistic people have done anything good by accident? Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is there any step? Prabhupāda: Therefore they support this accident theory. Nowadays they have got the accident theory. Because ordinarily there is no good. There is no possibility. But by accident if some good comes, that's all. Otherwise, jagato 'hitāḥ, it is only fault. They are... But accidentally means good comes. Accidentally, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement came. (laughs) Although it was going on in India. Nobody called Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the scientists, the philosophers, the politicians. But accidentally came. Accidentally, we got result. You cannot explain God, therefore you take it as accident. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is very interesting, very interesting. In a Vedic community everything is very ordered, and goodness prevails, therefore God consciousness seems very natural. Prabhupāda: Go on. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world." (purport) "The demoniac are engaged in activities that will lead the world to destruction. The Lord states here that they are less intelligent. The materialists, who have no concept of God, think that they are advancing. But, according to Bhagavad*-gītā, they are unintelligent and devoid of all sense. They try to enjoy this material world to the utmost limit and therefore always engage in inventing something for sense gratification. Such materialistic inventions are considered to be the advancement of human civilization, but the result is that people grow more and more violent and more and more cruel-cruel to animals and cruel to other human beings. They have no idea how to behave toward one another. Animal killing is very prominent amongst demoniac people. Such people are considered the enemies of the world because ultimately they will invent or create something which will bring destruction to all. Indirectly, this verse anticipates the invention of nuclear weapons, of which the whole world is today very proud. At any moment war may take place, and these atomic weapons may create havoc. Such things are created solely for the destruction of the world, and this is indicated here. Due to godlessness, such weapons are invented in human society; they are not meant for the peace and prosperity of the world." Prabhupāda: Now, discuss. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Actually, in this century there has not been ten years of peace. Always there is some war been going on, and now... Prabhupāda: Cold war and hot war, they say. When there is fire that is hot war, and there is diplomacy and politics, that is cold war. So war is going on. Sometimes it is hot, sometimes it is cold. There is no peace. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We even see that among the so*-called God conscious communities in the world, still there are such horrible activities going on, fighting. Prabhupāda: No, no, we don't say that fighting will stop. We are distinguishing demons and rogues, uh, demigods. If you fight, demon, I must defend myself. What can I do? If you start war, you are demon, shall I stop: "No, no, I am demigod, I'll not fight. You kill me"? Is that intelligent? I'll have to fight. But the war starts by the implication of the demons. The Kurukṣetra war, it was not started by Arjuna. It was started by Duryodhana. (long pause) All right, go on. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: *"The demoniac, taking shelter of insatiable lust, pride and false prestige, and being thus illusioned, are always sworn to unclean work, attracted by the impermanent." Purport. "The demoniac mentality is described here. The demons' lust is never satiated. They will go on increasing and increasing their insatiable desires for material enjoyment. Although they are always full of anxieties on account of accepting nonpermanent things, they still continue to engage in such activities out of illusion. They have no knowledge and cannot tell that they are heading the wrong way. Accepting nonpermanent things, such demoniac people create their own God, create their own hymns, and chant accordingly. The result is that they become more and more attracted to two things*-sex enjoyment and accumulation of material wealth. The word aśuci-vratāḥ, 'unclean vow,' is very significant in this connection. Such demoniac people are only attracted by wine, women, gambling and meat-eating; those are their aśuci, unclean habits. Induced by pride and false prestige, they create some principles of religion which are not approved by the Vedic injunctions. Although such demoniac people are most abominable in the world, still, by artificial means, the world creates a false honor for them. Although they are gliding toward hell, they consider themselves very much advanced." Prabhupāda: There are so many religious systems: "Yes, you can do whatever you like, you can eat whatever you like," and still it is religion. This is demoniac. That will be explained further. Huh? Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na vidur āsurāḥ janā [Bg. 16.7]. No, not in the beginning. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Number twenty*-three? Pradyumna: We just did that one. Text seven. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca... Prabhupāda: You have not recited this verse already? Oh, yes. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttim, this is the... They do not know what to do, what to not do. Because they do not take any standard idea. They manufacture their own ideas. *Kulādri: In the Catholic Church, they used to have the doctrine, "No eating meat on Friday." Used to be standard, no meat*-eating on Friday; they would only eat fish. Now within our lifetime they have changed it. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have changed so many things. When I was a young boy they..., you had to be in church on Sunday morning very early, otherwise it was noticed. Now you don't have to be till later on. There is no more austerity in religion. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if their standard is demoniac to begin with... Prabhupāda: Therefore they are selling churches. Nobody is attracted. In London city there are so many churches closed. Nobody goes. Devotee (1): In Cleveland, also, Prabhupāda, there are so many churches, only five, ten, fifteen people attend, and they are all elderly, elderly ladies. *Hari-śauri: Due to the Pope's taking a firm stand over the not allowing abortion and contraception, like this, they said that the number of practicing Catholics was reduced from seventy*-five percent to fifty percent, just simply because of that one principle that he'd stuck to. So twenty-five percent immediately left. Prabhupāda: Where they have gone? (laughter) Hari-śauri: Well, they gave up going to church at least. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Hopeless life. *Prabhupāda: No, why hopeless? There is hope*-Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. Hari-śauri: Hopeless for them. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This very much describes modern civilization also. They are such aśuci*-vratāḥ, they are given much respect in modern-day society. And the devotees, sometimes we go preaching and put into jail. Prabhupāda: It is very fortunate they are not crucifying you. Putting into jail, but they crucified Lord Jesus Christ, they were so intelligent. Because he was preaching God consciousness, he was crucified. What was his fault? He was talking of God, therefore he was crucified. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Now they only take our saṅkīrtana collection. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Now they are just taking our collection. Today two of my boys, they were arrested just north of here. So as a fine they have taken their saṅkīrtana collection. Prabhupāda: Robbing. In the name of law, robbing. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Right, the court has taken it. Devotee (1): Did this happen in court or the police...? Dhrtadyumna: In court. Prabhupāda: And then they let go? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They were let go. Hari-śauri: They just want some revenue. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are robbing, government, dasyu dharmabhiḥ. It is stated, government will be like rogues. As the rogues and thieves, they take away from you by force, the government will do that. In the court, by income tax, so many people are being harassed. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: There is a large organization called Mafia in this country. Prabhupāda: Mafia? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Mafia, organized criminals, organized like businessmen. They are controlling the politicians by money. But although they are exposing, still it goes on. It is worse than ever. Prabhupāda: What is that? Explain further. Hari-śauri: The Mafia is an organization that was originally coming from Sicily. They were an organized group of men that would control all the politics in the area by manipulation of money and businessmen. Devotee (1): And violence. Hari-śauri: And violence. So many things they'd do. They used to organize all the heroin that comes into the country, like this, for revenue, to get revenue, money. So many things. And places like Las Vegas, which is a big gambling city, that is also run by the Mafia. They control all the casinos and they control the police, they pay everyone off, like that, and if they don't agree, they kill them. So like this, their influence is spread everywhere, any illegal things that are going on. Prabhupāda: Terrorism. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Our last President, two Presidents ago, Kennedy, he was involved with one of their prostitutes. She was getting information, and he was not investigating them because he was involved with one of their prostitutes. Prabhupāda: They keep prostitutes also? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Oh, yes, they use them. Actually, they are controlling many of these judges, and then we are coming in, and we are preaching the other thing, no prostitution, no drinking, and then we are getting fines. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If the natural tendency of the living entity is to want to exist, to live, then why is it they perform so many horrible acts that will destroy themselves? Prabhupāda: They are thinking that they will exist in that way. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it that they see everyone as their enemy, and therefore everything has to be around them? Prabhupāda: No, that is foolishness. Everyone wants to exist, struggle for existence, but they do not know how to exist. That is foolishness. Everyone wants to exist because actually he is eternal. He doesn't like to be destroyed. That is his natural inclination. But he does not know. We are giving the formula that if you want to exist, then you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are giving the right information. But they want to exist in their wrong way of existing. That is not possible. Devotee (4): Why is it that the demon, he feels happy if someone else is distressed. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (4): Why does the demoniac mentality, that they feel happy if they see someone else in distress? Prabhupāda: Therefore they are demons. That is demonic mentality. They are happy when others are unhappy. And when others are happy, they are unhappy. That is demon. Devotee (5): They are thinking "I am not so happy, but these others, they are suffering more, so therefore I am okay." Prabhupāda: No. This is general demonic feeling. If you are unhappy, then I am happy. And if you are happy, then I am unhappy. *Kulādri: The devotee is described as para*-duḥkha-duḥkhi. He's only distressed in seeing the distress of others. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's song is there, para*-duḥkhe sukhi. That is natural. Go on. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification." Prabhupāda: Illegal. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Illegal means. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Purport. "The demoniac accept that the enjoyment of the senses is the ultimate goal of life, and this concept they maintain until death. They do not believe in life after death, and they do not believe that one takes on different types of bodies according to one's karma, or activities in this world. Their plans for life are never finished, and they go on preparing plan after plan, all of which are never finished. We have personal experience of a person of such demoniac mentality, who, even at the point of death, was requesting the physician to prolong his life for four years more because his plans were not yet complete. Such foolish people do not know that a physician cannot prolong life even for a moment. When the notice is there, there is no consideration of the man's desire. The laws of nature do not allow a second beyond what one is destined to enjoy. The demoniac person, who has no faith in God or the Supersoul within himself, performs all kinds of sinful activities simply for sense gratification. He does not know that there is a witness sitting within his heart. The Supersoul is observing the activities of the individual soul. As it is stated in the Vedic literature, the *Upaniṣads*, there are two birds sitting in one tree; the one is acting and enjoying or suffering the fruits of the branches, and the other is witnessing. But one who is demoniac has no knowledge of Vedic scripture, nor has he any faith; therefore he feels free to do anything for sense enjoyment, regardless of the consequences." Prabhupāda: Now discuss any points. Kulādri: One of the richest men in the United States, Howard Hughes, he just recently died, and he had sores all over his body. With all of his money, he died in a very miserable condition. He had so many millions and millions of dollars. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He said at the time of death, "I think I've made a mistake." Prabhupāda: What he was? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He was one of the richest men in the world, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He was owning all the..., like aircraft, they are making, the jet airplanes, and he was a movie star in his youth, and he had many beautiful women, fabulous wealth, he owned hotels all over the world, airplanes, airports, but... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At the end of his life he didn't even mix with women so much though. He became very despondent and depressed. He was like a hermit. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He was afraid of germs. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He became like a hermit. He withdrew into himself. No one knew very much about him; he was very mysterious so far as his life with the public was concerned. But towards the end of his life he didn't live a very elaborate life of sense gratification at all. No one knew much about him at all. Hari-śauri: This description is perfect, actually, because most of his fortunes they calculate he amassed by many illegal methods, like paying off police and fixing so many things up. With his money, he was always able to buy government officials and like this and get so many contracts to further the development of his aircraft companies and this and that. Prabhupāda: He has manufactured airplanes? Hari-śauri: Yes, he had something to do with airplanes. And also he had a lot of land in Las Vegas, this gambling city. So many... He was involved in many mysterious maneuvers. It's open in the newspapers, they said that he got most of his money from illegal methods. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: In his old age he was very afraid of germs. He didn't want to catch any disease. So he would wear..., he would live in perfectly sealed rooms with all artificial air and light, so no germs could exist, and he would wear these... Prabhupāda: He did not know that he's creating germs within his body. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He could not avoid death. Prabhupāda: If there was no germs, how he died? So at last he said? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He said something to the effect that "I don't know what this life was about. I think I've made a mistake." Just at the end. Prabhupāda: Yes, it was mistake. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Everyone is envious of such persons, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They think that "Yes, he could not enjoy his wealth, but if I had that wealth I would enjoy it." But then if they get it, then they also fail. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Next, what is next? Hari-śauri: Half past eight. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Should we take your leave now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, I have no objection to sit down here. If you want to stop, we can stop, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "The demoniac person thinks: 'So much wealth do I have today, and I will gain more according to my schemes. So much is mine now, and it will increase in the future, more and more. He is my enemy, and I have killed him, and my other enemies will also be killed. I am the lord of everything. I am the enjoyer. I am perfect, powerful and happy. I am the richest man, surrounded by aristocratic relatives. There is none so powerful and happy as I am. I shall perform sacrifices, I shall give some charity, and thus I shall rejoice.' In this way, such persons are deluded by ignorance." These are timeless statements Śrīla Prabhupāda. Kṛṣṇa has spoken for all time by these words. *Prabhupāda: Our Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, the formula is therefore: as soon as you get money, fifty percent spent for printing and fifty percent for temple. This is the basic principle of our Bhaktivedanta (Book Trust)*-no saving. As soon as you have got some money, print books, print books. Don't keep it. If you print books, some day somebody will read. But if we keep money, it creates disturbance. I am therefore always insisting, "Print books, Print books." Or construct temple, this building, that building. There is no need of keeping money. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: You said your Guru Mahārāja used to keep the temples in debt all the time. Prabhupāda: Mm. (pause) So you don't require covering? This girl? This cloth is sufficient? What you think? Why you have no covering? Mm? You do not require cloth? Kulādri: It is warm for us Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, if they require, there must be supply. You must ask them what they need and provide them because they do not say you'll also keep silent. That's not good. Every month they must be asked what they need. Necessities, they must be supplied. We have already discussed this point, the women, they require protection, children, women. All right, you can... Devotees: Jaya. *Room Conversation-*-June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban Prabhupāda: So in Detroit they do not go on the street? Hari-śauri: No, not in the local neighborhood. Prabhupāda: So far, there was no disturbance. Hari-śauri: No, not while we were there. Prabhupāda: No, before that. Hari-śauri: No, they haven't reported any disturbance. Prabhupāda: And the black men, they come also? Hari-śauri: Yes, I think they are... Prabhupāda: Sympathetic. Hari-śauri: Yes, because the devotees are not prejudiced in any way. We have white devotees and we have black devotees also. And if the neighbors want to come and see the place, then they are allowed in and shown around. We are about the only ones who could possibly live there. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: We are the only ones that could live there. Prabhupāda: Yes. (long pause) What is the reason they are given equal facility, still they are so wretched, poor, ruffian? Hari-śauri: Just low class. There's no intelligence how to utilize their wealth correctly. Prabhupāda: Same thing in Africa. Hari-śauri: I think you gave that example. If you give... If there's a dog and you put him on a king's throne, (Prabhupāda laughs) he'll still come and lick your feet. Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll lick up shoes. Another example is given: (Bengali saying) aṅgārā śveta... (indistinct). If you take a piece of coal, you can wash it hundreds and thousands of times, it never becomes white. And these are material things, but spiritually you can reform. It doesn't matter. If one comes to the spiritual platform then everything possible. Otherwise not. Hari-śauri: They're always looking for a platform of equality. Prabhupāda: The black men. Hari-śauri: No, just the people in general, for happiness. Because they understand that if there are so many different groups, then there will always be fighting and dissent. So they are always looking for some compromise how to get the groups to live together. *Prabhupāda: This is equal*-Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise not. Hari-śauri: No. Materially speaking, they've tried so many ways to integrate the black with the whites here in America, but what has actually happened is, through those efforts, they've created a worse situation. By deliberately forcing black children and white children to go to the same schools... Sometimes they have what's called here bussing. It's a big major issue in politics now. Because they take all the black children and they take them to a white area just so that they can go to the school there. They actually take them further away from their local schools to another school, where it is all white children, so that they'll integrate and mix. So it's very controversial. Prabhupāda: The parents won't like. Hari-śauri: No. They say, because it's like an artificial. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is artificial. They are lowborn, there is no doubt about it. Otherwise, they are getting the all facilities, still they are wretched, poor, unclean, not educated, not gentle, everything. All bad behavior. (end) Prabhupāda: ...pilot for 747, paying him a large sum of money. And here is airplane, everything complete with a pilot. Create (indistinct) by your scientific brain. Rascal. You are so proud of your scientific... Hari-śauri: In māyāpur, you said that the mosquito's body is so perfect that although with one slap it's finished, still it has a syringe so strong that it immediately upon landing on the skin it can penetrate and extract blood. *Prabhupāda: Immediately, just see. And if you allow one second, he'll fill the whole body up by sucking the...Just see what is that nozzle and how quickly they can... There is no intelligence? The mosquito has better intelligence than any human being about his business. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām. That particular body, he is destined to enjoy a certain amount of sense gratification according to his body. Sarvatra labhyate daivād. God's arrangement is nice. He can get it. The mosquito is getting. He wanted to suck blood, so he has been given a teeny body, he can suck blood. Very little quantity. So arrangement is there. He'll satisfy his senses, daivād, by arrangement of God. So why you are endeavoring? Even it is there in the mosquito, even it is there in the tiger or any animal or man, it is already arranged. Why you are wasting time in that way? Simply sense gratification. Who will understand this philosophy? The fact is explained. That gentleman, Subramanya is very much appreciative. Hari-śauri: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Those who are sane men, they are appreciating that here is a movement actually for the benefit... It is not sentimental, cheating, bluffing. Economic development. Do economic development, why you forget your real business? Tat*-prayāso na kartavyo yena āyur... What is that? Vyayaḥ param, simply wasting the valuable time of our life. If you want to suck blood, just become a mosquito. (laughs) Pray to God: "Give me the body of a mosquito." Quickly, you will get. Yānti deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. Bhūtejyaḥ yānti bhūtāni. You'll get it. *Devotee: Kīrtanānanda is here with the car. (microphone rattling*-changes to outside) *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simply expand this idea. Kṛṣī*-go-rakṣya-vāṇījyam [Bg. 18.44]. (end) *Marble Shop Visit-*-June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban (some machinery in the shop makes it difficult to hear) Hari-śauri: (announces in microphone:) Prabhupāda visits the marble shop. [break] Kīrtanānanda: This is a cutting table Śrīla Prabhupāda, here's is a diamond saw. When you cut marble you have to use water, so it automatically shoots water out. Devotee: You can make the cut if you want to. Prabhupāda: This is the marble? No. Kīrtanānanda: This is a marble base, this is what they cut on. Just to make it flat, it has to be a perfectly flat table. This is part of the floor for your study room. Prabhupāda: Oh. This is marble? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, this is all marble, but it is glued together in little pieces. Like inlaid. And this is the polishing room. [break] Take the rough marble and make it shine. Prabhupāda: You have spent so much money. What is the price of this machine? Kīrtanānanda: Well, there was a man, he was going out of business in Pittsburg, and I got a great deal of marble and all the machinery and everything for nine thousand dollars. It is very cheap. Prabhupāda: Oh. Do you know how to work? No. (devotees laugh) Kīrtanānanda: That is a heater, it's burning wood. (break to walking outside, kīrtana going on.) ...growing mung beans in this little field over there. Prabhupāda: (kīrtana ended, conversation in car now) Jaya. ...horse? What do they do, plowing? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. They do some plowing, they do some pulling wagons. Mostly they are used in the woods for logging. Prabhupāda: Oh. This land is very nice. For mung beans? Kīrtanānanda: Yes, those are all mung beans up there. [break] Children: Haribol! Prabhupāda: (laughs) Kṛṣṇa Balarāma used to practice race with the birds. Hari-śauri: Now our boys are racing with the cows. Prabhupāda: This is childish game. This nature is there in Kṛṣṇa. This is their only school building? Kīrtanānanda: This is not ours. This was an old school building, public school, but that is not our building. Prabhupāda: This is not our? Kīrtanānanda: Not ours. [break] ...looks like it might clear today. Prabhupāda: Oh. How these logs will be used? Kīrtanānanda: Roof. Prabhupāda: Oh. And you have to cut into planks? No. Or beams? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Cylinder? Gas? Kīrtanānanda: Gas. (end) *Garden Conversation-*-June 27, 1976, New Vrindaban Prabhupāda: So one learned brāhmaṇa, he said, "All right sir, namaskār your Kṛṣṇa. I cannot believe all these things." And the cobbler, he began to cry, "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is so great, He can do anything." So he, Nārada Muni asked, he saw the learned brāhmaṇa refused to accept, and this cobbler is so absorbed that he's crying, "Ah, Kṛṣṇa can do anything." So he asked him, "Do you believe this?" "Yes, why not?" "So how do you believe it?" "Now I'm sitting under this banyan tree, and so many banyan fruits are falling down, and I can see there are hundreds and thousands of seeds within the fig, and each seed contains a banyan tree. So why can I not believe? If within this seed a big banyan tree can be kept, what is the difficulty for Kṛṣṇa to pull the elephant through the hole of a needle?" He has got reason. He is not blindly believing. How the scientist who does not believe in God, he can explain that within the small seed there is a big banyan tree? Let them do that. By chemical composition make little seed. As I told, make little egg. They cannot do anything. Still they are so proud. *Dhrstadyumna: Yesterday we read, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that these are the qualities of the demon, that arrogance and pride, and their philosophy is there is no God in control. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad*-gītā. *Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in that story, the cobbler actually was more advanced than the brāhmaṇa, and yet in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that "Anyone can approach Me, even the strī śūdra dvija bandhu," they can all approach the supreme destination. Then in the next verse he says "How much greater, then, are the brāhmaṇas, the righteous, the devotees, the saintly kings." I was wondering how are they greater? Prabhupāda: You do not understand it? Devotee (1): I do not understand how they are greater than the lower person who surrenders. Prabhupāda: Suppose you have got your spiritual master and you, if somebody says that you can come into the..., any one of you can come in this car. So spiritual master goes, you also go. Does it mean that spiritual master is not greater than you? Do you think like that? Devotee (1): No. *Prabhupāda: Then? It is the same thing. Suppose Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja has brought this car, so he says, "All of you can come." So I go, you go, does it mean that you and your spiritual master is equal? Do you think like that? It is same thing. Everyone can go to Godhead, there is no doubt, but still there is difference between brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, śūdras. So far going into the car, the equal right is there, but it does not mean that your spiritual master or the next group, they are not greater than you. Don't think like that. The same car, Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is driving, I am also there, you are also there. Does it mean that we are all equal? There must be gradation. The right is given to everyone. It does not mean that immediately they become all one. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He accepted everyone, "Come on." But the distinction is there. We are inviting everyone to partake Kṛṣṇa prasādam. That does not mean that immediately all of them have become of the equal rank. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was so kind, but still there was distinction. When He was taking prasādam, personal associates, they were sitting with Him. Is it not? So this is called maryādā. Maryādā means honor. That must... Varieties must be there. Otherwise we become Māyāvādīs*-everything is equal, all one. This is Māyāvāda philosophy. No varieties. There must be variety. That is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And as soon as you make it varietyless, all equal, that is Māyāvāda. Just see even in this flower, this is also flower and this is also flower. Does it mean they are of the same rank? This is understanding. Together they look very beautiful, but if you take separate value, then it is valuable than this flower. That distinction must be there. If somebody says "I am accepting even the leaf in this garland," then what to speak of rose? It is like that. Kṛṣṇa says that. That does not mean leaf and rose have the same value. One is making a beautiful garland, "I am accepting everything." Mixed together it looks very nice, but individually the leaf has value, the rose has value, the flower has value. Not that because they are put together they have equal value. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Kulādri: In democracy they say everyone is... Prabhupāda: Nonsense democracy. What is...? Don't talk of this nonsense talk. (laughter). Democracy, communism, still there are varieties. But you make a president. Let everyone become president. Kulādri: That's what they've done, now the śūdras... *Prabhupāda: They have not done. Has everyone got the president's power? How do they say that you have done. Everyone equal? That is not possible. These are imagination. Mano*-rathenasato dhāvato bahiḥ Everything is there in the Bhāgavatam. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. These rascals who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they have no value. They are simply speculating within the mind, mano-rathena, and they'll act all abominable, because they are on the mental platform. I'll say "I think like this," you'll say "I think like this." And nobody, none of us perfect. Then what is the use of your thinking like this or thinking like that? Both of them are imperfect. So if so many rascals sit together, or dogs, they simply bark, that's all. It has no value. So our propaganda is that "Don't remain in the dog platform. Come to the human platform." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There you will get, "If we all dogs meet together and pass a resolution, then it will be organized." That is democracy. Democracy means like that. The dog is kept as dog, and they are assembled together to take their votes. What is the value of their vote? They are dogs. I've publicly said this, where? Devotees: Melbourne. Prabhupāda: Melbourne. The United Nations is an assembly of barking dogs, I've said that, (laughs) and they published it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "His Divine Grace has come to hound us." *Devotee (2): There is a so*-called spiritual master, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who is giving meditation courses to them. Prabhupāda: That is another cheating. Meditation... Whatever nonsense they are doing, you don't know, nobody knows. That's all. Bhava satrugna.(?) "If you become dumb, you have no enemy." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate. "A rascal is beautiful so long he does not speak." So better meditation; don't speak. Nobody will detect you. This is going on. If you speak, then you'll be detected what you are. And if you sleep by posing meditation, then nobody will ask "What you are doing, nonsense?" This is meditation. Meditation is another cheating. That Prahlāda Mahārāja has detected. Huh? Find out this verse, Seventh Canto. Hari-śauri: This Śrī Chinmoy is supposed to be this resident guru at the United Nations. Prabhupāda: Whatever he may be, but we have got our own formula to understand. Hari-śauri: He did a practical demonstration of what he said a person who is in touch with God can be capable of doing if he allows himself to become an instrument of God. So for eight months he painted continually, and he produced 27,000 paintings, and he said that this was proof that he was God realized. Prabhupāda: Mauna, the word begins with mauna. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maunam, like in silence. Mauna*-vrata-śruta-tapo-'dhvavana? *"O Supreme Personality of Godhead, there are ten prescribed methods on the path to liberation*-to remain silent, not to speak to anyone, to observe vows, to amass all kinds of Vedic knowledge, to undergo austerities, to study the Vedas and other Vedic literatures, to execute the duties of varṇāśrama-dharma, to explain the śāstras, to stay in a solitary place, to chant mantras silently, and to be absorbed in trance. These different methods for liberation are generally only a professional practice and means of livelihood..." Prabhupāda: Means of livelihood. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "...means of livelihood for those who have not conquered their senses. Because such persons are falsely proud, these procedures may not be successful." Prabhupāda: You can get some prestigious position from another rascal, but that will not solve the problem. What is the purport there? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda. "As stated in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam: *'Only a rare person who has adopted complete, unalloyed devotional service to Kṛṣṇa can uproot the weeds of sinful actions with no possibility that they will revive. He can do this simply by discharging devotional service, just as the sun can immediately dissipate fog by its rays.' The real purpose of human life is to attain liberation from material entanglement. Such liberation may be achieved by many methods*-tapasa brahmacāryeṇa śamena ca damena ca [SB 6.1.13]-but all of them more or less depend on tapasya, austerity, which begins with celibacy. Śukadeva Gosvāmī says that those who are vāsudeva-parāyaṇa, who have fully surrendered to the lotus feet of Lord Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, automatically achieve the results of mauna (silence), vrata (vows), and other such methods, simply by discharging devotional service." *Prabhupāda: Take, for example, mauna. Mauna means don't talk rubbish. It is better not to talk than to talk foolish. So mauna is meant for them who cannot talk about Kṛṣṇa. Better stop talking. Mauna*-vrata. Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa, he'll talk all nonsense. So sometimes the spiritual master says that "You remain silent for twelve years." So (laughter) instead of talking nonsense, you remain silent for twelve years. That is mauna. Because as soon as you'll talk, you'll be captured where you are. Better not to talk. This is mauna-vrata. But one who is devotee, why he'll not...? He'll talk about Kṛṣṇa. Vācāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane. Always talking about Kṛṣṇa. Why he should be silent? If he remains silent, then people will not get the benefit. Let him speak always of Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that yāre dekho tāre kaho kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. Whomever you meet, you simply talk about Kṛṣṇa, what He has taught in the Bhagavad-gītā. You become guru. So why guru will stop? Guru will speak. But what kind of speaking? What Kṛṣṇa has spoken. Not nonsense. Not like that: "I have painted so many pictures, therefore I have become God realized." Where Bhagavān says "By painting pictures one may..." He does not say, Kṛṣṇa does not say. He has invented this. So therefore our test is, whether he's a bona fide guru, whether he's talking what Kṛṣṇa has said. Then he's guru. Otherwise a rascal. That's all, finished. Why should we bother? This is the test. If he's speaking, repeating the same thing, what Kṛṣṇa said, then he's guru. If he's talking something else, then he's rascal. Immediately take it. If you know this art, how to detect the rascal and guru, the test is already there. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Guru will say "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." He'll never say that "I have become Kṛṣṇa. You simply surrender to me." To surrender to Kṛṣṇa means surrender to guru also. You'll learn it. So "Kṛṣṇa is now dead; *now I have become Kṛṣṇa." This is rascal, immediately. So to test a guru and a rascal, there is no difficulty if you are well conversant with the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā. There is no question. Kṛṣṇa says ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. This confidential knowledge, what is that? Sarva-dharmān pariyajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ, one who is teaching this confidential knowledge-just surrender to Kṛṣṇa*-Kṛṣṇa says "Ah, he is My dearmost friend." So you become dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa. Simply say what Kṛṣṇa says. Why do you speak all other nonsense things? You immediately become the dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa. And if you manufacture, then you are a rascal. Why shall I accept a rascal? We shall accept the dearmost friend of Kṛṣṇa as guru. That is wanted. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, when He was asked by a gṛhastha devotee what should be the behavior of a Vaiṣṇava, He immediately said asat-saṅga tyāga, ei vaiṣṇava ācāra: [Cc. Madhya 22.87] "Give up the company of all rascals, asat." Asat means those who are rascals. That is Vaiṣṇava. Do not mix with all rascals, asat. Now how shall I know who is rascal and who is not a (rascal)? Asat eka 'strī-saṅgī--eka asādhu, kṛṣṇa-bhakta āra. One who is too much attached with woman, he is rascal. Another rascal, who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. So we have got everything test tube. Put the test tube and you understand. If one is strī-saṅgī... Strī-saṅgī means not only the man, the man or woman, one who are very much sexually attached, he is a rascal. One should give up his company. And another rascal who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all, finished. So if you want to be a Vaiṣṇava, you must give up the company of these two rascals. Then your progress is guaranteed. Everything is there. There is no difficulty to distinguish between rascals and intelligent, guru and bluffer. Everything is there. And to become a perfect Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said asat-saṅga tyāga ei vaiṣṇava. Don't talk even with these rascals. But sometimes in the preaching work we have to talk with such rascals, but not to take their theory but to teach them our theory. If you become defeated by their theory, then you are not a preacher. Don't preach, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You are not fit for teaching. If you become overcome by their teaching, then you are finished. A preacher is madhyama-adhikārī, advanced devotee. He can preach. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī should be engaged in temple worship, very nicely, then gradually he'll come to the madhyama-adhikārī. So the preacher is madhyama-adhikārī. A kaniṣṭha-adhikārī cannot become preacher. He is in the lowest stage of devotional service; *he cannot become preacher. He'll be conquered by the asat. And madhyama*-adhikārī, he knows how to deal with asat. At least he does not mix with them. That's all. If he cannot defeat them, he should avoid them, because that valuable time can be utilized for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness to a person who is inquisitive to hear. Bāliśya. Bāliśya means innocent. He wants to know something about Kṛṣṇa. Better deal with him than with the rascals and waste time. Better avoid the rascals. Just like in hospital, emergency cases, the doctor, when they see that this patient hopeless, he does not take care anymore. But when there is hope, they give medicine and try to... So hopeless condition, better not. Don't talk with them. That's all. That is vaiṣṇava-ācāra. Then he'll remain safe. Hopeless person, don't waste your time talking with them. Īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca. Four observations. Bhagavān-īśvara; *prema*-love. And, prema-maitrī, friendship with devotees. And kṛpa, mercy to the innocent person. And upekṣā, no more talking. Don't waste time, talking with all these nonsense. Better utilize, properly utilize the time by instructing a person who is innocent and eager to hear. Like that. So this mauna-vrata-tapas-śruti... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda: These things are meant for ajitendriyānām, who could not control the senses, ajitendriyānām. And who has engaged his senses in the service of the Lord, they are not ajitendriya. If you have engaged your mind in Kṛṣṇa, the mind is the king of senses; *then your senses cannot be misled. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane [SB 9.4.18]. Then if your mind is always in Kṛṣṇa, man-mana bhava mad bhakto, then what you'll speak except Kṛṣṇa? If you speak nonsense, that means your mind is not engaged in Kṛṣṇa. The mind is the center of all sensual activities. So if your mind is always in Kṛṣṇa, how we can talk nonsense? Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane. He'll be always engaged in talking about Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. So if we keep our mind always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there is no question of mauna, because we'll have to talk about Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I remain mauna? If we talk about Kṛṣṇa, or what Kṛṣṇa has said, then I am benefited, and the audience, he is also benefited. Take Bhagavad-gītā and talk. So those who are Kṛṣṇa devotees, they'll gladly hear. Those who are inquisitive, innocent, they'll also hear. And the dviṣāt, those who are envious, they'll go away. That's good, clear. Talk about Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. Don't talk anything else. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can we give up our enviousness and reluctance to serve the spiritual master and the other devotees? Prabhupāda: Answer. Dhrstadyumna: One can free himself from envy by serving. You serve the devotees and follow the instruction of the spiritual master. In this way the mind becomes your best friend. *Prabhupāda: A devotee is never envious of another devotee. He is not a devotee. Tad*-adhīneṣu maitrī. One who is devotee, we have to make friendship with them. How we can hate them? Devotees: Jaya, all glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Prabhupāda: So any question from the newcomers? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This gentleman, he owns this house, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He mentioned that he met you way back in 1966 in Tompkins Square Park. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) If you go somewhere, you must know first of all why you have gone there. That is the first question. If you go to a store, the first business is that you have gone to purchase some particular thing from the store. That is understood. Similarly, why one should go to a spiritual master? What is the purpose? Answer any one of you. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One is..., when one is confused and frustrated by this material existence, he wants to find an answer to his problem. So there are different authorities in the world offering solutions, but one has to find the actual authority. Prabhupāda: That is the purport. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsu śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. One has to go to guru when one is inquisitive. Jijñāsu. Jijñāsu means we want to know so many things; that is our nature. Child also wants to know. He asks his parents, "What is this, father? What is this, mother?" That inquisitiveness is there in everyone. So when one wants to know about the Supreme, then he requires a guru, or spiritual master. It is not a fashion that "Everyone keeps a guru; *let me also have a guru." Not like that. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. "In order to understand the transcendental science, one has to go to guru." Jijñāsu śreya uttamam. After artha,... Just like generally, naturally, one goes to temple, church... Four classes of men. One is needy: "O God, give us our daily bread." One thinks... Actually, that is the fact. God gives us bread. So traditionally we are trained up. So we go to God, "Give us our daily bread." Similarly, one who wants to know what is God. Just like in our society, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they see that these boys, young boys, they have given up everything, they are after Kṛṣṇa. What is this Kṛṣṇa? That is intelligent. Why they are after this Kṛṣṇa? Then he has to go to a person, guru. In this way, there are many circumstances. But the real purpose is to know the Supreme. One who is inquisitive or anxious to know about the Supreme, then there is necessity of guru. Otherwise, what is the use of it? One who is not inquisitive to understand the Supreme, he has no business for a guru. But everyone has necessity to understand the Supreme. That is human life. A dog cannot inquire what is God, because he is dog. But a man can do that. He has got that developed intelligence. So if a man does not inquire about the Supreme Truth, he is no better than a dog. If one does not seek after spiritual master, he's a dog. He's in the standard of dog. Because that inquiry is the particular business of human being, to inquire about the Supreme. If he does not inquire, then still he's on the platform of dog. First of all, you have understood it or not? So any human being with developed intelligence must go to a spiritual master. If he does not go, then he's still in the animal platform. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Abhigacchet means he must. If he does not, then he is in the animal platform. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? So if one is looking for a guru, but there are many people they are proclaiming themselves guru, and they are speaking "Supreme, God," how may one tell the actual guru? Prabhupāda: That is, if you want to purchase something, you must know where to purchase. Otherwise, you may be cheated. You, generally, you ask your friend that "I want to purchase some diamond, so can you give me some reliable address where I can go and purchase?" Generally, people do that. So you have to do that. If you want to purchase, you must know the preliminary understanding where diamond can be purchased. And if you are not aware of it, you may be cheated. That preliminary knowledge you must have. That means best thing is, those who are dealing with diamonds, you go there. Just like if anyone is inquisitive to understand God, so best thing is those who are dealing with God only, they have no other business. Then you go there. That is the intelligent. Why should you go to a cheater? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is especially distributing knowledge about God. So why do they not come here and inquire? First thing is, unless one is inquisitive to understand God, or Absolute Truth, he has no necessity of guru. But if he is actually serious, then he must go to a person where the dealing is only God, that's all. Just like ordinarily, if anyone wants to purchase some share of company, he goes to the share market and he sees the price of different shares, and he selects. So everything requires little intelligence, then it is all right. Otherwise, you may be cheated. Whatever business you do, you must do it intelligently. But if you are foolishly doing something, you may be cheated. Why we are opening so many centers all over the world? We are giving opportunity people to come and understand about God. Why do they not come here? Then he can make his judgment that "Here is the genuine party." And if one accepts some cheap God, that means he has no understanding about God. He's a rascal. If I say I'm God and somebody accepts me as God, then he's a foolish man. They do not know what is meaning of God. If one wants God, he must know at least what is meant by God. Every scripture, just like in Bible it is said "God has created this universe." So if you come to me and accept me as God, why don't you test whether I have created another universe like this? Why you accept a cheap God who hasn't done anything? Simply he's bluff, and he says that "I am God." So why do you accept such God? Hmm? Why should we accept a cheap God? Everything requires intelligence. If you are not intelligent, then every transaction you may be cheated. Everyone has heard God is great. So great means there should be nobody equal to Him and nobody greater than Him. That is greatness. So test that man whether he has no competitor, another God. Nowadays there are so many Gods. So God is great, why there is another competitor? This is intelligence. Devotee (1): Prabhupāda? Can one make progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, whatever we are talking you should understand, then bring another question. Don't puzzle. One question decide. Don't make it whimsical dictionary. It is not good. First of all decide one question clearly. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: So the bona fide guru does not claim to be God, but he gives knowledge of God, and he only deals with God. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is bona fide guru. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A very common occurrence in the Western countries, they say that anyone can be guru. In fact, one Westerner who went to India and came back-he's very popular in the United States today*-he says that everyone is guru and everyone is God. Prabhupāda: And people accept that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now you discuss this point. Discuss this point. *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Bhagavad*-gītā... Prabhupāda: First of all, you discuss this point, everyone is God and everyone is guru. Devotee (2): Only if one hears from the right authority can one be guru. Spiritual knowledge is descending. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The premise of the *Vedas* is that there's a creator of everything. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a creator of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Origin of everything. The premise of these so*-called spiritual masters... Prabhupāda: No, this is a common sense. If everyone is God, then what is the necessity of finding out a guru? Guru means who explains about God. Everyone is God, then what is the use of explanation? There is no need of guru. Devotee (2): How can God be controlled by His own energy, illusory energy? Prabhupāda: So many things. Foolish men can accept that, "Everyone is God, everyone is guru." That is foolish man's proposition and accepted by fools. Devotee (2): It is explained in Back to Godhead magazine that (indistinct) serve Kṛṣṇa, serve God. If someone tells you that he is guru (indistinct). Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So to accept a spiritual master must mean that one is in ignorance and one is enlightened. Prabhupāda: For ignorance there is no need of guru. An ignorant cannot inquire about God. Intelligent man can inquire about God. Guest: We have to pick up our children. Thank you. [break] Prabhupāda: Pick up children from a school? Do you know him? Devotee (2): They're from Wheeling. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Once you said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, "If you are God, what will you do when I kick on your face?" Because if God is creating the sun, such a great planet in the sky, thousands of tons of energy, so if they are the source of the sun, but "What can they do if I kick in their face? Nothing. So how is that God?" Kṛṣṇa, when..., someone was, Paundraka, he was saying he was God, He said, "All right, hold My cakra." And He took off his head. So to these false Gods we can say "What will you do if we kick you in the face? You cannot save yourself." Prabhupāda: That is the proper treatment. (laughter) *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is one common philosophy also held by a lot of religious groups that God can be understood directly from within, and that no guru or spiritual master is necessary. If I desire to approach God, and if He's all*-powerful, He can instruct me from within. They feel like this. Therefore they dispute our claim that we understand God in a different way, that you need a genuine spiritual master. And yet when we approach them, one man will say he has God within his heart and he understands God in this way, and another man is receiving instruction from God from within the heart, and yet he's saying another thing. Prabhupāda: So? Devotee (2): Yet, they continue to claim like that, so... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, when God teaches Arjuna... His realization from within should be the same as Kṛṣṇa is teaching to Arjuna. It should be confirmed by śāstra. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He was saying that these people say "God is instructing me from within," but they all have different philosophies. Prabhupāda: But he's a rascal, and who accepts him, he's a rascal. How do you think that God is speaking to him? How do you accept it? How do you accept that God is speaking to him? Devotee (2): Well, I don't accept it. Prabhupāda: But you are advocating. Why do you accept this? Devotee (2): He would say that he has turned his... Prabhupāda: He would say, but you must know that he's talking foolish. How God can talk with him? What is the condition? Therefore you have to read books. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Tad vidhi praṇipātena. *Prabhupāda: No. God talks with whom? That is said. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānaṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam [Bg. 10.10]. Those who have already become devotee of God and engaged in His service, He talks with him. Not he's a third-class fool. He doesn't talk with him. It is clearly stated, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām [Bg. 10.10], one who is twenty-four-hours engaged in the service of the Lord, with love and faith, God talks with him. That is clearly stated. How do you understand that God is talking with him? A rascal fool, who has no business with God? God talks with devotee, very sincere devotee who is already engaged in God's service. He talks with him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But then he might say "But I love God." *Prabhupāda: He might say, that is another thing. The standard is this. He may say*-he's a rascal, he can say so many nonsense. That is not the standard. He says that "God is talking with me." So I have to see whether he's a candidate with whom God can talk. The formula is teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam [Bg. 10.10]. "One who is twenty-four-hours engaged in My service with love and faith, God talks with him." So first of all see whether he's twenty-four-hours engaged in God's service with love and faith. Then you can understand, "Yes, God is talking with him." But he has no preliminary qualification, if he says "I can talk with God," he's a nonsense. That means because you are a nonsense you are talking about him that God talks with him. You do not know with whom God talks. So you are nonsense also. You accept him, "Yes, he may be talking with God." How he can talk? That means you are also nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks. Why do you accept such proposition? If some store keeper says "I have passed M.A., L.L.D.," and I have to accept that? You must know with whom God talks. That means you are nonsense. You are accepting nonsensically. And the person who is constantly engaged in God's service, unless he's trained up by a spiritual master, how can he be engaged? So without spiritual master, one cannot be engaged in devotional service, and without devotional service, nobody's eligible to talk with God. So that nonsense talking, that without spiritual master God talking, and he has become perfect, this is all nonsense. One who believes, he is also nonsense. He does not know God. To raise such question means nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks, therefore you have brought this question. Otherwise, you would have kicked immediately. It is impossible. What do you think? Devotee (2): I understand what you are saying. Prabhupāda: Then why do you raise this question? Devotee (2): It's a matter of argument also. Prabhupāda: Argument? Why do you bring such nonsense argument, waste time? Don't waste time. You are ignorant, you are accepting. Don't remain ignorant. It is common sense. Is it so easy that one can talk with God? If some common man says "Just now I went to Mr. Ford, and talked with him. I'm coming back from him." So any gentleman will believe that? So these are our insufficiency that we believe such things. We are not properly trained up. Simply waste time. That's not good. He may talk nonsense. Why I shall accept nonsense? The same example. If somebody comes, "Now I'm just coming from talking with Mr. Ford, the President." Shall I have to believe? He's a common man. How he can talk with President Ford? If I believe, then I am also nonsense. Where is that? Hari-śauri: We don't have a fan in here... I have to bring a fan from somewhere else. *Prabhupāda: No, no, bring, you can bring some soft cloth. Why this is, you bring some soft cloth. So don't indulge such nonsense question. You must personally understand. That is knowledge. If you are reading Bhagavad*-gītā, how you can accept nonsense, he says that "I can talk with Kṛṣṇa without spiritual master." It is absurd proposition. So why you should accept such absurd proposition unless you are also another absurd? If you knew that it is not possible, you "You rascal." Don't talk with him. Don't waste time. But you also do not know with whom God talks. Clearly stated. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ [Bg. 10.10]. Teṣām evānukampārtham [Bg. 10.11]. Why don't you read all these proposals? With whom God talks? Hmm? Why did you not? Devotee (2): I'm familiar with those verses. Prabhupāda: Then why did you not say "God talks with such and such person, but you are not such and such. Why you are talking nonsense? That means you are cheating. But you cannot cheat me. I know." So you must know. You must know with whom God talks. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, does this mean that we should not speak with those who ask such questions? Prabhupāda: But you must know how to answer it! Otherwise, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why there are so many books? You do not read it, you do not know how to answer it even. That means you do not read. If you knew that God does not speak with rascals or anyone ordinary, then you would have immediately replied, "God does not speak to you. It is not possible. It requires qualification." Why should you believe it and waste your time? Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu prays that one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige. How do we lose that desire for false prestige? Prabhupāda: Answer. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Desire for false prestige? First of all, ceto-darpana-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The heart is full of so many dirty things, and basically all of these revolve around the bodily concept of life*-I think I'm this body. Therefore we're desiring honor, we don't like to be dishonored; and looking for so many gains, we don't like to lose something. So there are so many dualities that exist: respect and disrespect, honor and dishonor. So when you become purified, freed from the bodily concept of life by chanting, then naturally honor and dishonor, they are not very important; they are only in relationship to the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now argue, whether you are satisfied with his answer. If not, say it. In this way, discuss. Are you satisfied with his answer? Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it says that the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta is the postgraduate study of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Hmm, hear him. What does he say? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the postgraduate study... *Devotees: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, postgraduate study. *Kulaśekhara: So if we're very attracted to reading Caitanya caritāmṛta now, but we haven't finished Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam as yet, should we wait until we have studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam thoroughly? *Prabhupāda: It does not mean that one who is not postgraduate, he cannot read other books. Spiritual life is not a stereotype like that. But one who is not postgraduate, it is little difficult for him to understand the statement of... Just like in the beginning of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, it is said, na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāj jagati para-tattvaṁ param iha, that there is no superior truth than Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So if you have not studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, you'll not understand this statement. If you understand, "Yes, Caitanya is the supreme truth," then it is to be understood that you have graduated. And if you are not, then it will be difficult for you to understand. *Kulaśekhara: Then the more we understand Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, the more we'll understand the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. *Prabhupāda: Yes, and if you understood Bhāgavatam thoroughly, then you can understand Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. But if you have not understood Bhāgavatam, then you cannot understand Caitanya caritāmṛta. The simple statement, na caitanyāt kṛṣṇāt para-tattvaṁ param iha. Where is Caitanya-caritāmṛta? Bring. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Which volume, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: First volume. That means you are not reading, you simply are referring. This is the difficulty. Without thoroughly reading something, we bring so many questions. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore forbidden, bahu śāstra nā pore. Don't bother yourself reading so many books at a time. You'll be puzzled. Find out this verse, yad advaitaṁ brahmopaniṣadi... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't believe there's an index in this first volume. Prabhupāda: In the first chapter you'll find. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Seventeenth verse? "What is described in the *Upaniṣads*..." *Prabhupāda: Yad advaitaṁ brahma*-upaniṣadi. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "What the *Upaniṣads* describe as the impersonal Brahman is but the effulgence of His body, and the Lord known as the Supersoul is but His localized plenary portion. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa Himself, full with six opulences. He is the Absolute Truth, and no other truth is greater than or equal to Him." *Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. So will anyone be able to understand this verse? Hmm? Everything is stated there, what is Caitanya. Will everyone be able to understand it? That is the proof that he's not graduate. If he is graduate, then he should understand. Therefore it is postgraduate. *Kulādri: One must understand Bhagavad*-gītā before Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam? *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is stated there yad advaitaṁ brahma upaniṣadi. That means he must understand the Upaniṣads. He must understand what is Brahman. So without understanding this, how he can understand Caitanya*-caritāmṛta? It will be explained there, but the fact is this. What is that? Is there any explanation? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, there's no purport to this verse. Prabhupāda: So further on there is explanation. Find out that. *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? How does one know when he has the understanding of the Bhagavad*-gītā? Prabhupāda: What does he say? Answer him. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What did you say? *Devotee (2): How does one know when he has the understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā? *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One has understood Bhagavad*-gītā who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, because Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], that "The essence of all knowledge is to surrender unto Me, to give up all other duties." So one who takes that instruction as life and soul, he has understood Bhagavad-gītā. Is that all right? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same verse again in the Second Chapter."The compilers of the *Upaniṣads* speak very highly of the impersonal Brahman. The *Upaniṣads*, which are considered the most elevated portion of the Vedic literatures, are meant for persons who desire to get free from material association and who therefore approach a bona fide spiritual master for enlightenment. The prefix upa indicates that one must receive knowledge about the Absolute Truth from a spiritual master. One who has faith in his spiritual master actually receives transcendental instruction, and as his attachment for material life slackens, he is able to advance on the spiritual path. Knowledge of the transcendental science of the *Upaniṣads*..." Prabhupāda: Where is that boy? You are hearing? Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Knowledge of the transcendental science of the Upaniṣads can free one from the entanglement of existence in the material world, and when thus liberated, one can be elevated to the spiritual kingdom of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by advancement in spiritual life. The beginning of spiritual enlightenment is realization of impersonal Brahman. Such realization is effected by gradual negation of material variegatedness. Impersonal Brahman realization is the partial, distant experience of the Absolute Truth that one achieves through the rational approach. It is compared to one's seeing a hill from a distance and taking it to be a smoky cloud. A hill is not a smoky cloud, but it appears to be one from a distance because of our imperfect vision. In imperfect or smoky realization of the Absolute Truth, spiritual variegatedness is conspicuous by its absence. This experience is therefore called advaita*-vāda, or realization of the oneness of the Absolute. The impersonal glowing effulgence of Brahman consists only of the personal bodily rays of the Supreme Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Since Śrī Gaurasundara, or Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, is identical with Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself, the Brahman effulgence consists of the rays of His transcendental body. Similarly, the Supersoul, which is called the Paramātmā, is a plenary representation of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The antaryāmi, the Supersoul in everyone's heart, is the controller of all living entities. This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā, wherein Lord Kṛṣṇa says sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ: "I am situated in everyone's heart." (Bg. 15.15) Bhagavad-gītā also states; *bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29], indicating that the Supreme Lord, acting in His expansion as the Supersoul, is the proprietor of everything. Similarly, the Brahma-saṁhitā states, aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham: [Bs. 5.35] the Lord is present everywhere within the heart of every living entity and within each and every atom as well. Thus by this Supersoul feature the Lord is all-pervading. Furthermore, Lord Caitanya is also the master of all wealth, strength, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation because He is Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself. He is described as pūrṇa, or complete. In the feature of Lord Caitanya, the Lord is an ideal renouncer, just as Śrī Rāma was an ideal king. He accepted the order of sannyāsa and exemplified exceedingly wonderful principles in His own life. No one can compare to Him in the order of sannyāsa. Although in Kali-yuga acceptance of the sannyāsa order is generally forbidden, Lord Caitanya accepted it because He is complete in renunciation. Others cannot imitate Him but can only follow in His footsteps as far as possible. Those who are unfit for this order of life are strictly forbidden by the injunctions of the śāstras to accept it. Lord Caitanya, however, is complete in renunciation as well as all other opulences. He is therefore the highest principle of the Absolute Truth. By an analytical study of the truth of Lord Caitanya, one will find that He is not different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa; *no one is greater than or even equal to Him. In Bhagavad*-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] 'O conquerer of wealth (Arjuna), there is no truth superior to Me.' Thus it is here confirmed that there is no truth higher than Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. The impersonal Brahman is the goal of those who cultivate the study of books of transcendental knowledge, and the Supersoul is the goal of those who perform the yoga practices. One who knows the Supreme Personality of Godhead surpasses realization of both Brahman and Paramātmā, because Bhagavān is the ultimate platform of absolute knowledge. The Personality of Godhead is the complete form of sac-cidananda (full life, knowledge and bliss). By realization of the sat portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited existence), one realizes the impersonal Brahman of the Lord. By realization of the cit portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited knowledge) one can realize the localized aspect of the Lord, Paramātmā. But neither of these partial realizations of the Complete Whole can help one realize ānanda, or complete bliss. Without such realization of ānanda, knowledge of the Absolute Truth is incomplete. This verse of Caitanya-caritāmṛta by Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī is confirmed by a parallel statement in the Tattva-sandarbha by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī. In the Eighth Part of Tattva-sandarbha it is said that the Absolute Truth is sometimes approached as impersonal Brahman, which, although spiritual, is only a partial representation of the Absolute Truth. Nārāyaṇa, the predominating Deity in Vaikuṇṭha, is to be known as an expansion of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, but Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Absolute Truth, the object of the transcendental love of all living entities." Prabhupāda: So is it clear? (laughs) It is not so easy. Therefore it is postgraduate. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can these things be understood theoretically, Śrīla Prabhupāda, or is realization required? Prabhupāda: Realization required. What is the use of theoretical knowledge? Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, can realization be had through service without theoretical understanding? Prabhupāda: This whole science is understood through service only. Everything becomes revealed. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ [BRS. 1.2.234]. Revelation. Everything is revelation. Unless one is very sincere servant, there is no revelation. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it described a gradual process of realizing Kṛṣṇa, but does the devotee go through these levels of understanding Brahman then Paramātmā then Bhagavān? Does the devotee gradually go through these levels, or does he immediately realize Brahman when his service is perfect? Prabhupāda: That depends on his capacity. (directing someone:) Just on the head of the... Devotee (2): Mahārāja Kīrtanānanda said that our actual realization comes through our actions. So we are building this New Vrindaban we are, actually..., this is taken to be our preaching or our life and soul. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: What is your question? Devotee (2): My question is how do we... Devotee (3): Prabhupāda, his question is will one become realized by continually engaging in devotional service under the direction of a bona fide representative of the spiritual master? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The question is that his service is here in New Vrindaban under Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Will serving the representative of the spiritual master..., is that as good as serving the spiritual master? Will it get the same result? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that was the question. No? At least, I understand the question to be: Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: That is the Absolute Truth. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Absolute means there is no difference. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's service, same. So discuss it further. *Devotee: Is that to say that if one-brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]*-that if one simply goes on serving, engaging in all sorts of different activities for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, but he never, in this lifetime at least, has realization of Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān...? *Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Everything is explained. By seeing the sun one can understand the sunshine, the sun globe and the sun*-god. There are three things. Within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam: [Bg. 4.1] "I spoke to Vivasvata." So there is a person Vivasvata, and the globe is there, we see, and the sunshine is there. So what is the difficulty to understand? Three things are there. The person within the sun globe, Vivasvata, is there, otherwise how Kṛṣṇa could speak with him? He says, imaṁ vivasvate yogam, "unto Vivasvata I spoke." So there is a person. And we can see the globe, and we can see the sunshine. Is there any difficulty? So similarly, the Brahman is the sunshine, light, and Paramātmā is the sun globe, and Bhagavān is the sun-god. This is, the sun is one example. From this example, we can understand the Absolute. Where is the difficulty? (aside:) Sit down properly. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. As heat and light, all of them are the same... In the sunshine there is heat and light, in the sun globe there is heat and light, and within the sun globe there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. You can tolerate the heat and light of the sunshine, but if you go to the sun globe you'll be finished. Temperature's so high, it requires a special qualification. Similarly, from heat and light point of view, Brahman, Paramātmā, Bhagavān, the same. Everywhere there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. So one who understands Brahman, he cannot understand Paramātmā. He understands, but not as thoroughly. Similarly, one who understands Paramātmā, he can (not) understand Bhagavān, but if you understand Bhagavān, then you understand Paramātmā, Brahman, everything. Kulaśekhara: So we should simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Try to understand everything, but understanding Kṛṣṇa, you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam eva vijñātaṁ bhavanti. And because you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore you do not understand Brahman, you do not understand Paramātmā. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then it is automatically understood. We have not understood Brahman, Paramātmā, because we have not understood Kṛṣṇa properly. Kṛṣṇa says, aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8], "I am the source of everything." So Brahman is also from Kṛṣṇa, Paramātmā is also from Kṛṣṇa. And so other Bhagavāns-there are so many Bhagavāns also*-they are from Kṛṣṇa. So if you understand Kṛṣṇa you can understand everything. And as soon as you say that you have not understood it, therefore you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. They cannot understand, just like Māyāvādīs, they do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore they do not understand Brahman also. And therefore they fall down, because they have not understood either Brahman or Kṛṣṇa. Patanty adhaḥ. This is stated in the śāstra. Anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ, because they have not understood Kṛṣṇa, even they have gone up to the Brahman, they cannot stand there; they fall down. Again they come to the material world. The Māyāvādīs, they say, brahma satyma jagan mithyā, "Brahman is truth, and this material world is false." They take sannyāsa, but after some time they fall down, again take to other businesses than Brahman in the material world. Just like our Vivekananda. He came to the Western countries to preach Vedānta, and he has advertised that "Whole America has become Vedantist." The proof of Vedānta is when he returned to India he became very enthusiastic to open hospitals like the Christian missionaries. So if the material world is false, so why he's trying to open hospitals? Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Jagat is mithyā. So why in the mithyā platform he's taking credit by opening hospitals? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, as long as people are suffering, they can't realize that they are God. Prabhupāda: So you cannot stop the suffering. You are unable. You are also suffering from the same disease. So don't say that jagat mithyā. If they are suffering, that's a fact. Then how do you say it is mithyā, it is false? If it is mithyā, then why you are affected by the suffering? There are so many questions. That means not realization. Contradictory. If you feel the suffering, then why you call it mithyā? It is fact. Why do you say it is mithyā? That means you have no realization. You are accepting suffering as mithyā. We say suffering is not mithyā, it is fact, but if you want to save from suffering, then you get out of this material world. We don't say that, that suffering is mithyā or this world is mithyā. We don't say that. We are offering this flower to Kṛṣṇa, not as mithyā; *it is a means of service. Why shall I say it is mithyā? By offering... Kṛṣṇa says patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. By offering a little flower. How can I say this is mithyā? Māyāvādī's philosophy, it is mithyā. With mithyā we can approach the satya? By hundreds of false we can make one truth? Kṛṣṇa says that "If you offer Me a little flower," so how can I say this is mithyā? It is not mithyā. It is satya. When it is satya? When it is offered to Kṛṣṇa. And when you take it for your sense gratification, that is mithyā. That is mithyā. You cannot enjoy it. If you enjoy it, then go to hell. If you offer it to Kṛṣṇa, you go to Him. So how can I say it is mithyā? You cannot approach Kṛṣṇa with something mithyā. Then Kṛṣṇa becomes mithyā. There are so many things to be studied. We don't say like that. We find there is relationship of Kṛṣṇa with everything. When we find this beautiful rose, we find the intelligence of Kṛṣṇa. By Kṛṣṇa's intelligence it has come out so nice, fragrant, beautiful. They say it is made by nature. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa's says mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. So under Kṛṣṇa's direction nature has made it so beautiful. That is a fact. Therefore I find there is hand of Kṛṣṇa in this flower. So Kṛṣṇa has made this, this is Kṛṣṇa's property, it should be offered to Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti. We are not offering something mithyā to Kṛṣṇa. It is fact. It is made by Kṛṣṇa. If you say, "No, no, I don't touch this flower," so what is credit there? You have not prepared it. You touch or not touch, it doesn't matter. If you say, "No, no, it is material. I don't touch." You may not touch it, but you do not know it is not material, it is spiritual, it is made by Kṛṣṇa. So you have to study deeply. Everything is... Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8]. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the source of everything." So the flower is also from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], from whom everything is emanating. The flower is also within the everything. How can I say it is false? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kulādri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said we can't understand Brahman unless we understand Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real understanding. And without Kṛṣṇa, if you understand brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, then you fall down. Kulādri: But it seems then you have to come to the full understanding before it does any good. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means those who are simply trying to understand Brahman, they are not understanding. Kulādri: Then what does it mean gradual process, gradual advancement in transcendental realization? Prabhupāda: Gradual process, just like you are here in the sunshine. So if you are intelligent, you'll understand that the temperature in the sunshine and the temperature in the sun globe is different. So Brahman understanding is the lowest stage. Paramātmā understanding little higher. And Bhagavān understanding is complete. That is gradual. And these Māyāvādīs, they do not try to understand Kṛṣṇa. They are satisfied only with understanding Brahman. Therefore they fall down. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta [SB 10.2.32]. Because there is no standing. The impersonal feature, that the sky... Go very high in the sky, you do not see anymore this planet earth, neither you see anything, you'll be mad. Then you will find out how to go back again. You cannot stay there in that condition. Although they say "so'ham," no, you cannot stay there. Just imagine, if you go very high and you do not see any other thing, only sky. Will you be able to stay in that condition? You go in the sea. When you do not find anything, all water, you become very much anxious, "Where is land? Where is land?" And as soon as you have a glimpse of land, island, you become very, "Oh, there is land." So this is impersonal understanding. It is simply imagination, that simply by Brahman understanding he'll be happy. No, that is not possible. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, then even Brahman has to be understood in relationship to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (1): Even Brahman has to be understood... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real understanding. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Now wherefrom this fragrance have come? Devotees: From the earth. Prabhupāda: Get out this fragrance from earth, you scientist. By Kṛṣṇa's manipulation here is fragrance. Everyone knows it has come from earth. If there is, in the earth, there is no such fragrance, wherefrom it came? So therefore it is there, it is understood, but you get it out. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, we can take the chemicals and mix them, produce fragrance. Prabhupāda: Take the chemicals? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. We can analyze the chemical structure and make... *Prabhupāda: No, the flower has taken directly, without any chemical addition. You do that. It is a fact the flavor is there within the earth, you take the flavor, extract the flavor. Not only this flavor, there are different flavors, all, everything there. There are so many flowers coming out. Huh? Sarva*-kāma dugha-mahī. Mahī means earth. Everything's coming out from the earth. But not in your attempt. It is Kṛṣṇa's attempt that He can take out. Out of so many different flavors, everything is there within the earth, but Kṛṣṇa's manipulation takes the different colors, different flavors, different bodies, everything. That is Kṛṣṇa's manipulation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10]. Just like in our kitchen we have got the ingredients, rice, dahl, āṭṭā, ghee. But the expert can prepare hundreds of preparations. That expert is Kṛṣṇa. And if one is not expert, even the ingredients are there, he'll spoil everything. He'll mix the āṭṭā with water then put ghee and then put rice. (laughter) This is the... We have to become expert. If you become expert, then you'll do very nice purī, dahl, rice, ah... There are so many varieties. You enjoy. And if you are not expert, you'll spoil. So Kṛṣṇa is expert and Kṛṣṇa bhakta is expert because he takes lessons from Kṛṣṇa. So for them this is not mithyā. Rascals who spoil it, they think it is mithyā. He could not do anything. He mix with a conglomeration, and because he could not get any result, he said mithyā, disappointment. And one who knows, he knows how to utilize it. Just like we are utilizing the cows in so many nice preparations, and these rascals killing them. Finished. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And then they want to say that this is mithyā, that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is mithyā. Prabhupāda: Whatever they say, practically see. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. They do not know how to use the cow, only kill. Devotee (4): You said that is the sour grape philosophy. Prabhupāda: Grape philosophy, what is that? Hari-śauri: Sour grape. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The fox... Prabhupāda: Ah. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: ...wanted to taste the grapes, but he couldn't, so he said they are no good. *Prabhupāda: You do not know expert. So if we remain under the guidance of Kṛṣṇa, then we also become expert to some extent. And Kṛṣṇa's expertly service or intelligence we can see in the flower, so many flowers. So why shall I not take shelter of Kṛṣṇa? Sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. That is intelligence. That is intelligence. We see Kṛṣṇa's expertly manipulation. So if we take Kṛṣṇa's shelter, at least we shall get little intelligence. Dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam. "He gets the intelligence directly from Me." And that is wanted. Why it is foolishly dealing with this rice, dahl and make spoil everything? Be little expert from Kṛṣṇa's instructions and make everything nice. Kṛṣṇa personally teaches how to deal with cows. He never showed the example of killing the cows. He maintained the cows, the calf. He was distributing butter even to the monkeys. And the pasturing ground became muddy on account of milk dropping from the bags. This is Kṛṣṇa. And He is personally taking care. So why the Kṛṣṇa's devotees should not do it? Give protection to the cows and utilize the milk. That is one of the items of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not keeping hogs and dogs. We are keeping cows, because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa did not keep so many dogs as nowadays so many big, big men, they are keeping dogs. Kṛṣṇa did not do so. If we follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then we are perfect. Practical example. We have not invent. If we simply follow what Kṛṣṇa has instructed us, then we become perfect. Devotee (5): How can we perfectly follow only what Kṛṣṇa has said? The other evening you said that the patient he is always a fool and a rascal. Prabhupāda: Answer him. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But one should not remain a fool and a rascal. If the doctor has given the formula, you have to follow it. He says don't eat this but stay in bed, sleep so much. You have to do it, otherwise you will stay sick. Prabhupāda: You'll remain a rascal if you don't follow the instruction. So what do you want? You remain a rascal or make advance? What you want? Huh? Devotee (5): To become advanced. Prabhupāda: Then follow. If you willfully remain a rascal, that is the difference. Otherwise, if you follow you'll become advanced. Everywhere you'll find Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. He says mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10]. They explain, "Nature." But they cannot explain what is nature. We can explain. Nature is a system which is being handled by Kṛṣṇa. That is real understanding. Nature, we can see that from nature this flower is coming, this flower is coming. But why not...? They say accidentally. If it is accident, why in the plant of this flower sometimes rose is not coming accidentally? And why from the rose plant not accidentally this flower is coming? So where is the question of accident? You have never experienced such accident. The same plant, the same flower is coming. Where is a proof by accident another flower has come? Where is the proof? So why do they say like that, accident? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Because they don't want to accept God. Prabhupāda: No, no, accept God or not, where the accident theory comes? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well if they don't give some explanation, then they'll be considered fools. *Prabhupāda: Some explanation, they have to give you something foolish explanation? So foolish man will accept that, not a sane man. If you say "By accident," then I'll say why not accident in the history of the world there is a rose plant some other flower has come out? If man has come from monkey, why not coming now? So they give so may foolish propositions, only fools will accept. Anyone who has a little reasoning power they will not, they'll understand that these are all crazy fellows, talking all nonsense. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. We have got little formula to understand that if one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious he has no good qualifications. He cannot say anything as a qualified person. That is the test. Mūḍha. Immediately take: a mūḍha. Let the mūḍhas speak all nonsense. Why should we waste our time? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As soon as we find somebody not Kṛṣṇa conscious, not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, we take, reject, he's a rascal, that's all. And he is rascal. Not only blindly we are rejecting, but with reason. (end) *Morning Walk-*-June 27, 1976, New Vrindaban Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Are the prajāpatis responsible for propagating human species or all species of life? Prabhupāda: Human. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Are there different prajāpatis for the different species? Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmā is the origin. [break] ...a class of men, they are called vaidyas (doctors). They know all these herb, which herb is medicine for certain disease, and they sell in the market. Every one of these is meant for some medicine. They know it. Hari-śauri: Is that kind of information given in the Vedas? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Āyur Veda. There is a book. Dravya*-guṇa. All kinds of herbs, metals, even different kinds of flesh of different animals, they are mentioned. Hundreds of different kinds of animals flesh, how it can be utilized for certain disease, the descriptions are there. Hari-śauri: They use flesh for curing things? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: They use flesh for curing diseases? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Animal*-killing is only allowed when it is absolutely necessary, for medicine. Suppose by killing one animal hundreds of lives are saved, so that is allowed. One preparation is chagalaka-ghṛta. It is prepared... A live goat is put into the ghee with other ingredients, and that is a good medicine for tisis(?). Hari-śauri: For? Prabhupāda: Tisis(?) Tuberculosis. Hari-śauri: Oh. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They actually cook the live goat in the ghee? Maybe we should withhold this science from the Western world for a while. Prabhupāda: No, you are expert already. (laughter) Hari-śauri: There were some mantras they chant... Just like the sacrifices where they would give new life to the sacrificed animal. They would do the same thing? Prabhupāda: To test, to test the Vedic mantra. Hari-śauri: So that goat would get a new life, or...? Prabhupāda: Who? No, this is used for medicine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Many, many of the Western medicines are taken from different glands from animals. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] *Devotee (1): They had an Āyur*-vedic doctor in New Vrindaban, and he was prescribing mung and rice diet for the... *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's the one who told Rameśvara prabhu not to take any sugar when he had hepatitis. He told them that for hepatitis one should take*-what was it? Devotees: Mung and rice. Devotee (1): Mung and rice, and no sugar. Prabhupāda: So it was taken? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Rameśvara was taking, but then he heard that Your Divine Grace said he should take papaya and sugar. Prabhupāda: Sugar candy. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: So he immediately stopped the other prescription and followed your prescription. Prabhupāda: It was beneficial? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Rameśvara? Yes, he recovered. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I also got over hepatitis following Prabhupāda's prescription. Śyāmakuṇḍa: Prabhupāda, yesterday in this book it said that when a cow gets so old, the most economic solution to do with it is not to waste the meat, that it should be slaughtered. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Śyāmakunda: The karmīs, they say that its... When you have this cow that won't give any more milk and its teeth are rotten where its going to die-it can't hardly eat properly*-that it's a waste to not use that meat to feed people. It should be slaughtered. Prabhupāda: I have written? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. He's saying in a karmī book. Śyāmakunda: They say that the economically proper thing to do is to kill the cow after it, er, and not waste the meat. *Prabhupāda: And who will take? When he'll die, who will take his meat? That is also economical. Why don't you give it to the animal*-eaters instead of wasting it? Why they bury in the ground? Why? Let it be thrown eating by the jackals or anybody else. Śyāmakunda: The people should eat their..., the people, then, according to that philosophy, right? Prabhupāda: No, when man is dead, why the economic calculation is not taken? Hm? Devotee (2): Because they think it is animallike. Prabhupāda: Animal or a man, when it is dead, then it is the same value. Is there any difference of value between the animal body and man's body? Devotee (2): They think it is barbaric. Prabhupāda: "They think," but you think like human being. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But the animal has no soul. Prabhupāda: Soul or not soul, when the body is dead, is there any difference of value? Śyāmakunda: Well, it doesn't seem human to eat a human. Prabhupāda: This is nonsense, the rascal's nonsense. Hari-śauri: It's too horrifying for them to contemplate that they may start eating each other. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Or their family dog. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Or their grandmother. Śyāmakunda: But if it was wrapped up in a package and they didn't know it was the dog or their mother, they could probably eat it. Prabhupāda: Yes, they can eat by packing. Hari-śauri: They eat their pets sometimes. I used to have a pet rabbit, and one day I came home from school and my father had killed it and eaten it for dinner. (laughter) He said I wasn't looking after it properly, so he... Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This business of simply taking economics into consideration... Prabhupāda: They do not. Rascals... How to live, they do not know. Animals. There is a class of men in India, they take, I told you, the dead body of a cow. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cobblers. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Mucis? Prabhupāda: Muci, yes. Their business is shoe maker. So when the cow is dead, they take it, they eat the meat and take the skin and the hoof. They make business without any, what is called, investment. Harer nāma [Ādi 17.21]. That is economic. He gets the skin without any price, and he makes shoes and gets full profit. But that is for a class of men, not for all. Economic gain for a cobbler is not the economic gain for a brāhmaṇa. "One man's food another man's poison." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is considered, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that when a brāhmaṇa is engaged in the activities of plowing and cultivating, that he has become a vaiśya? Prabhupāda: No. If there is nobody to help, he can do. Hari-śauri: As long as he keeps up his brahminical standards. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. This is our car? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda? It says in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, jaya jaya nityānanda, nityānanda-rāma, yāṅhāra kṛpāte pāinu vṛndāvana-dhāma. That means he has somehow achieved the shelter of Lord Nityānanda because He sent him to Vṛndāvana. Is this also true for the residents here in New Vrindaban? They have achieved the shelter of Lord Nityānanda? Devotees: Jaya. (end) *Answers to a Questionnairefrom Bhavan's Journal-*-June 28, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Beginning, from the beginning. You can add something. Hari-śauri: Read out what it is and everything as well. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is a questionnaire which was sent to us by one journal, a cultural and religious journal in Bombay. It's called Bhavan's Journal. And they are questioning different religious leaders, especially in India, trying to get the answers to some of these important questions which are perplexing especially the Indian public today. So there's a list of about 21 questions, and we can go through them one by one for Śrīla Prabhupāda to answer. The first question, "Is the influence of religion over the masses on the wane?" Is the influence of religion over the masses decreasing? *Prabhupāda: Yes, this is predicted in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Tataḥ anudinam. Bring that black book, Bhāgavata. Tatas cānudinaṁ dharmaḥ satyam. This is Kali-Yuga, the age of waning of these things. Religiosity, truthfulness, memory, bodily strength, duration of life, mercifulness. Hari-śauri: Pradyumna's just going to come with it. *Prabhupāda: These are, will be declining. These are the, I mean to say, human assets which makes a human being distinct from the animals. But these things will decline. There will be no mercifulness, there will be no truthfulness, the memory will be shortened, duration life shortened. Similarly religion will vanish. So that means gradually they will come to the platform of animals. And especially when there is no religion, it is simply animals. That any common man can distinguish, that... a dog does not understand what is religion. He's also a living being. He's not interested what is going on here about Bhagavad*-Gītā or Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. He is not interested. That is the distinction between dog and man. The animal is not interested. So if the human being becoming disinterested in religious things, then they are animals. And how there can be happiness, peace, in the animal society? They want to keep people as animal, and they are making United Nations. How it is possible? "United Animals?" Is it possible? "Society for United Animals." (laughter) So these things are going on. So they have detected it is declining, that is good. Declining means they are going to be animals. In the logic it is said, "Man is rational animal." So rationality minus..., animal. Where is human being? (aside:) you stand be... No. there is no place. That's all right. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Second question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Question two? Prabhupāda: No, you have written all these things or not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's being taped. I'll transcribe it later. Prabhupāda: So what is that? Find out tatas canudinam. Pradyumna: Tatas cānudinaṁ satyaḥ, dharmaḥ satyaṁ śaucaṁ kṣama daya. *Prabhupāda: Hm. Find that verse. You can quote that "This Kali*-yuga it is waning; *therefore they are becoming animals." Man without religion means animals. That's all. This is the definition. In the human society, either you become Christian or you become Mohammedan or you become a Hindu or you become Buddhist. It doesn't matter. There must be some system of religion. That is human society. And human society without religion*-animal society. This is plain fact. So why people are unhappy now? Because there is no religion. They are neglecting religion. That one gentleman, he has written me that Tolstoy said that "Unless one dynamite is put underneath a church, there cannot be any peace." That means they want... The Russians, the Communists, they are very strict against God consciousness. Because they think so, that this religion has spoiled the whole social atmosphere. It might have been misused, religious system. That does not mean that religion should be avoided. Real religion should be taken. Because religion has not been properly executed by the so-called priest, it does not mean that religion should be rejected. My eye is giving some trouble on account of cataract, but that doesn't mean eye should be plucked out. The cataract should be removed. So that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. They have no conception of God, and they are preaching religion. What is that religion? That will be misused. Religion means dharmaṁ tu sāksād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means God's order. If there is no God, where is religion? This is going on. They have no conception of God. What is God they do not know, and professing some religion. How long it will go on artificially? It will deteriorate. That has become the present condition. They have no idea of God, and how they will know what is the order of God? And religion means order of God. Just like law means order of the state. Law means order of the state. So if there is no state, where is the order? You can manufacture your own order. That is going on. There is no conception of God. We have got clear conception of God. Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. And He's giving orders. We accept it. And it is clear religion. And if there is no God, no conception of God, no order of God, then where is religion? If there if no government, then where is law? Outlaw. Everyone is outlaw. That is going on. Ask any religious system what is the conception of God. Can anyone tell clearly? Nobody can say. We shall immediately say, veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam [Bs. 5.30]. Aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛttimanti... immediately description, "Here is God." Then there is religion. And if there is no God, where is religion? Bogus. Therefore declining. They have no conception of God, and therefore there is no understanding of religion. Therefore it is declining. So this is the cause of declining. And because it is declining, human being becoming more animals. Animal means there will be no memory. A dog comes... Here is some eatables. He comes. I say, "Hut!" He goes away. Again he comes. No memory. So when this memory is reducing that means human quality is reduced. So in the Kali-yuga these eight things will reduce. That means they are becoming like cats and dogs. This is the answer to the first question. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question number two? Prabhupāda: Hm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "The traditional charge against Hinduism is that it is fatalistic, that it inhibits progress by making people slaves to the belief in the inevitability of what is to happen. How far is this charge true?" *Prabhupāda: The charge is false. Those who have charged like that, they do not know what is Hinduism. There is no such thing as Hinduism, but there is mention of sanātana*-dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. That we can find in the scriptures. I've already given note. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I have that. Prabhupāda: So what is his, what is the charge? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He says that people are accusing that Hinduism, it inhibits the progress of mankind. Prabhupāda: What is that progress? Dog's jumping is progress? (laughter) Is that progress? A dog is running here and there, here and there, and you are running on the four wheels? Is that progress? That is not Vedic system. The Vedic system is that human being has got a certain amount of energy. Better energy than the animals. Better consciousness. That should be utilized for spiritual advancement. So whole Vedic system is meant for spiritual advancement. The energy is employed in another direction, not the energy is employed to compete with the dog. Therefore sometimes those who have no idea of religion, they see that the... "Hindus" is not the proper term. The Indian saintly persons, they are not busy like the dogs. Because they think the dog race is life. But actual life is spiritual progress. Therefore śāstra says, *The human being should exert the energy for that thing which he did not get in many, many lives. Many, many lives he had been in the form of dogs or demigods or cats, birds, beasts, many. There are 8,400,000. So this transmigration is going on, but in everywhere the business is sense gratification. The dog is busy for sense gratification. Where is food, where is shelter, where is woman or man, and where is defense. And the man is also doing the same business in different forms. So this is going on, life after life. Even in small insect, this is also trying for the same thing. Same struggle, ahara*-nidra-bhaya-maithunam. Bird, beast, animal, fish-everywhere the same struggle. Where is food, where is sex, and where is shelter, and how to defend. So śāstra says these things we have done in many, many lives past, and if we don't get out of this struggle for existence we'll have to do it again in many, many lives. So these things should be stopped. So Prahlāda Mahārāja says therefore, He's advising that, "My dear friends, pleasure, material pleasure, on account of this material body, particular type of body...": A dog, it has got a body, and I have got a body. So my sex pleasure and dog's sex pleasure, there is no difference. the pleasure derived out of sex pleasure is the same. But a dog is not afraid of having sex pleasure on the street before everyone. We hide it. That's all. In a nice apartment. But the business is the same. There is no difference. But they are taking this sex pleasure in a nice apartment and very decorated, man and woman, and electric light and so on, so on. This pleasure is advanced. But that is not advanced. And they are making dog's race for this advancement. Superficial. The Prahlāda Mahārāja says that this is a question of different types of pleasure on account of different types of body, but the pleasure is the same. But according to the different types of body the pleasure is already fixed up. That is called destiny. A pig has got a certain type of body and his eatable is the stool. It is already fixed up. You cannot change it, that "Let the pig eat halavā." It is not possible. Because he has got a particular type of body, he must eat that. Can anyone, any scientist can improve the standard of living of a pig? Is it possible? Devotees: (laughing) No. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says it is already fixed up. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām. This pleasure is the same, but according to the body... The uncivilized man in the jungle, they are having the same thing. And they are taking civilization that "Instead of living in that hut made of leaves, we are living in skyscraper building. This is advancement." But Vedic civilization says, "No. This is not advancement. The advancement is self-realization, how much you have realized yourself." Not that from the hutment you have come to skyscraper building, therefore it is advancement. Sometimes they misunderstand. In a high-court a judge is sitting soberly, doing nothing, and he is getting the highest salary. And another man in the same court, he's working day and hard rubber-stamping and he is getting not even one tenth of the salary. He's thinking, "I am so busy and working so hard. I am not getting any good salary. And this man is sitting only on the bench and he's getting so fat salary." So therefore this is question like that. The Vedic civilization is for self-realization. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido [SB 1.5.18]. Kovido means very learned. He'll simply try for that thing which was not received, which was not achieved in other life. That means self-realization. Just like we are sometimes charged, "escape." What is the charge? Devotee: We are escaping from reality. *Prabhupāda: There is the question. (devotees laugh) but their reality is dog's race, and our reality is to advance in self*-realization, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is difference. Therefore karmīs have been described as mūḍha, asses. Asses. And asses, why the example is given to the asses? Because the ass works very hard. It loads on the back tons of cloth of the washerman, and the washerman in return gives him little morsel of grass, and he stands at the door of the washerman, eats the grass, again loading. But he has no sense that "If I go out of these clutches of washerman I can get grass anywhere. Why I am loading so much?" The karmīs are like that. They're busy in the office, very busy. If you want to see him, "I am very busy now." (laughter) So what is your result of busy? "Now, I take two pieces of toast and one cup of tea. That's all." (laughter) And for this purpose you are so busy? He does not know why he's busy. Because in the books he's finding, "Now, the balance was one thousand million dollars, now it has become two thousand," that his satisfaction. But he will eat two pieces of bread and one cup of tea. When it was one million dollars, when it was two million dollars. But still he'll work hard. This is called karmī. Asses. Work like asses, without any aim of life. This is asses. Mūḍha. But Vedic civilization is different. The accusation is not correct. They are not lazy. They are busy for higher subject matter. And that busy-ness is so important that Prahlāda Mahārāja says, "Beginning from the childhood," kaumāra ācaret prājño [SB 7.6.1]. Not lose a second time. So that is Vedic civilization. But these asses, they do not see that "These men are working like us, like dogs and asses. So they are escaping." Yes, escaping your fruitless endeavor. So the Vedic civilization was meant for self-realization. Vedic civilization begins from the varṇāśrama system. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. How to realize Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore the system is varṇāśrama. In another place it is said, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer [SB 1.5.17]. The varṇāśrama means there is division: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. But the ultimate goal is viṣṇur ārādhyate. The Supreme Lord should be worshiped. That is the idea. So if Viṣṇu ārādhana is available immediately, then you can give up all other occupational duty as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra, as a brahmacārī, everything. Take to it, immediately, to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is so important. But that they do not know. Therefore there is no religion. A simply dog's race. The dog is running on four legs and you are running on four wheels. That's all. And they think the four-wheel race is advancement of civilization. But the Vedic civilization is different. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ [SB 1.5.18]. Then one can say that "Then we shall do nothing?" Yes, practically it is said, "Do nothing." Whatever is obtainable by you or destiny, you'll get it wherever you are. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You'll get it. "How I, shall I get it?" Now, kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā. By the arrangement of eternal time, everything is available. The example is given that you do not want something distressful. As it comes upon you, similarly, even if you do not want, the happiness for which you are destined, it will come. Now, Prahlāda Mahārāja says, na tat-prayāsaḥ kartavyam. You should not waste your energy for material happiness. Because you cannot get material happiness more than what you are destined to have. That is not possible. "How shall I believe..." Because you get something distressful condition although you do not want. Who wants? In our country Mahatma Gandhi was killed by his own countrymen. Who did want it? Or why did it come? He was great man, he was protected by so many and.... Still, he was to be killed. Destiny. He was killed. Who can protect you? "So if the distressed condition come compulsory upon me, the other condition, the opposite number, also will come. Why shall I waste my time for this rectification? Let me utilize my energy for Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is intelligence. You cannot check your destiny. Their question is... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That, the charge is that Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore people are not making progress because they simply accept... *Prabhupāda: No, no. They are misguided. First of all, the Hinduism is also misguiding. There is no such thing as Hinduism. It is sanātana*-dharma and varṇāśrama-dharma. I do not know how this word... Most probably it was given by the Mohammedans, "Hindus." But there is no such thing. In Bhagavad-gītā I don't find any word as "Hindu." Is there any word? Throughout the whole? There is no such thing. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a second part to this question also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They ask: if it's false that actually Hinduism is not fatalistic or sanātana*-dharma is not fatalistic... *Prabhupāda: No, no. Fatalistic in this sense, that the destiny cannot be changed. Just like I have given already the example, that the Mahatma Gandhi, nobody expected that he would be killed by his own countryman. Why it happened? This means destiny cannot change. This is a prominent example, that Mahatma Gandhi, he was in a big meeting. Who expected that Mahatma Gandhi could be killed, and by his own countryman? But it was done. That is destiny. You cannot check it. So our point is that... The whole Vedic civilization is that destiny, a certain amount of happiness in this material world... Nobody is enjoying uninterrupted happiness. That is not possible. A certain amount of so*-called happiness and certain amount of so-called distress. There must be always. So as you cannot check your distressed condition of life, similarly you cannot check your happy condition of life. It will come automatically. So don't waste your time for these things. You better utilize your energy for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they think that "These people are wasting time." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then, is it true then that people who have this conception, they would not try for progress? *Prabhupāda: No, no. Progress... The thing is that if you try progress vainly, what is the use of trying? If it is a fact you cannot change your destiny, so why should you try for that? Better... That is the... Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta. Therefore whatever energy you have got, you utilize it for understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Make it clear. Just like our society. We are, our main business is how to make advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not very enthusiastic to open big, big factories and big, big money*-earning machine. No. We are not interested. We'll be satisfied with the amount of happiness or distress, whatever we are destined. Let us utilize our energy for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the point. So the Vedic civilization is meant for realization of God. Viṣṇur aradhyate. So they try for that. And now, at the present moment.... Actually, the varṇāśrama-dharmi, they never tried for economic development. You'll find in India still, thousands of men taking bath in the Ganges. In the Kumbhamela... You have been in Kumbhamela? Devotee: No. *Prabhupāda: At the Kumbhamela millions of people are coming to take bathing in the Ganges because they are interested how to become liberated. They're not lazy. They're going thousands miles, two thousand miles away, to take bathing in the Prayāgaa. So they are not lazy. But they are not busy in the dog's race. Yā niśā sarva*-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī. Saṁyamī. He keeps night, he does not sleep. Others are sleeping. So similarly, the dogs and asses, they think that "They are not working." And they are working. The different platforms. So the Vedic civilization which is practiced in India... Now it is distorted, but actually, they are not lazy. They are very, very busy. Not only very, very busy, but from, they are trying to become self-realized from the very beginning of life. Kaumāraṁ... Devotee: Kaumāraṁ acaret prajñā? Prabhupāda: Prajño dharmaṁ bhāgavatan iha. That is recommended. They are not lazy. They are so busy that want to begin the business from the very childhood. So it is a wrong conception that they are lazy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then if this is false that actually they're not... Prabhupāda: they do not know what is the aim of life. They think that "they are not racing like dog; therefore, they are lazy." But they are busy, very busy, from the childhood. But they have no eyes to see what is, business means. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The second point is, in connection with this question, that there's a certain class of people in India-he describes them as being advanced, well-meaning and highly educated people in India today*-that they're accusing Hinduism of inhibiting progress and he wants to know why is this. *Prabhupāda: That is explained. They do not know what is progress. The Vedic civilization is not interested in this so*-called false progress. Just like from hut to skyscraper. They think this is progress. But the Vedic civilization thinks how much he is advanced in self-realization. Either he is in cottage or in skyscraper. But if he wastes his time to turn the huts into skyscrapers, then the whole life is finished. And next time he is going to be a dog. He does not know. That's all. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? They want to know how this can be counteracted, this idea? Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Don't get... Hari-śauri: (whispering) this is going to be transcribed. Prabhupāda: Make everything clear. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that is very clear. Would you like to hear the next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, it is clear or now? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So long it is not clear, you can go on asking. One question after one question. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The point was made by you that they don't understand what actual progress is. Prabhupāda: Actually, destiny cannot be checked. That I have already given. Even Mahatma Gandhi could not. The destiny you cannot check. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But then the question may be raised if destiny cannot be checked, then why not, when a child is born, simply let him like an animal run around and whatever happens to him... *Prabhupāda: No. That is the advantage of... you can train him spiritually. That is possible. Therefore it is said, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido [SB 1.5.18]. For that purpose you engage your energy. That is open. Ahaituky apratihatā. The devotional service, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, apratihatā, it cannot be checked. Material destiny can be checked, or it cannot be checked. Similarly, your advancement in spiritual life cannot be checked if you endeavor for it. But your advancement of so*-called material happiness, that is already destined. You cannot check it. Try to understand this. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then in terms of advancing in spiritual life, actually we can't say that the sanātana*-dharma is fatalistic. That there is actually endeavor towards progress. *Prabhupāda: Fatalistic... I have given this example also. Just like a man is condemned by the law court to be hanged. Nobody can check it. Nobody can check. Even the same judge who has given this verdict, he cannot check. But if he begs for the mercy of the king, he can check it. He can go all above the law. Therefore, karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām [Bs. 5.54]. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said that destiny can be changed by Kṛṣṇa for His devotees. Otherwise it is not possible. If one is condemned to death, Kṛṣṇa can check it. Otherwise, it is falsehood when Kṛṣṇa.... Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]," I shall give you protection from all reaction of sinful activities." Suppose you are to be killed by somebody on account of your sinful activity. Nobody can check it, ordinarily, but Kṛṣṇa can check it. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa's telling false, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi, "I shall give you protection." So therefore our business should be only to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And if you artificially want to be more happy by economic development, that is not possible. That is not possible. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question number three? Prabhupāda: Hm? No, first of all clear by your so, melforce(?) (laughter) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It may take several issues to... Prabhupāda: Try to understand what is that. The first thing is that your destiny cannot be changed. That's a fact. But in spite of your destiny, if you try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Otherwise, why Prahlāda Mahārāja is asking his friends, kaumāra ācaret...? If the destiny cannot be changed, then why he's asking? It is not the... Destiny means material business. That you cannot check. But it can also be checked when you are in spiritual life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the meaning of apratihatā? You said that spiritual development cannot be checked. *Prabhupāda: Pratihatā means suppose you are destined to suffer. So apratihatā means in spite of your so*-called suffering, the suffering will be reduced or there will be no suffering. But in spite of suffering, you can make progress in spiritual life. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja himself, his father was putting him in so many suffering conditions but it was not impeded. He was making progress. He was making progress. He didn't care for father'sputting him into so many suffering. That is called apratihatā. If you want to execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your material condition of life cannot check it. That is the progress (?) (indistinct). But so far material condition, that cannot be checked. You have to suffer. But in case of devotee that suffering also, can be stopped. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa's version is false: ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. Suffering is there on account of my sinful activities but Kṛṣṇa says ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ. Make it clear. Ordinarily destiny cannot be checked. Therefore instead of wasting your time for change your economic condition or material destiny, you employ this energy for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That cannot be checked. Your so-called... So many men we can see, they are working so hard, does it mean that everyone has become a Ford, a Rockefeller? Why? Everyone is trying his best. Mr. Ford was to become rich man, his destiny was there, he became rich man. But does it mean that other man who has worked so hard like Ford, he has become like a Ford? No. This is practical. You cannot change your destiny simply by working hard like ass (?) and dogs. No. But you can utilize your energy for improving your Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. He was destined to be killed by his countryman, he was not? Such a big man, such vigilance and so many people were guarding him and still he was killed in the meeting. Why Mahatma Gandhi? Your president, ex, Kennedy. Was less protection was taken? No, every was there, everything was there but still he was killed. Who can stop this destiny? So destiny cannot be checked. The fatalists, they know, "My material happiness or distress, it cannot be checked. It will happen so why shall I waste my energy for this purpose. Let me utilize my energy for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Therefore it is said tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labyhate yad bhramatām [SB 1.5.18], that is intelligence. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if destiny cannot be changed, what does Kṛṣṇa mean when He says, "Be thou happy by this sacrifice." Prabhupāda: Do you know what is meant by sacrifice? Devotee: Sacrifice to Viṣṇu, to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means to please Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa is pleased He can change destiny. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti bhājāṁ [Bs. 5.54]. Sacrifice means to please Kṛṣṇa, yajña. Yajña means to please Kṛṣṇa. The whole, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to please Kṛṣṇa. That is the whole program. In all other business there is no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. When they declare war, one nation to another, there is no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. They're pleasing their whims. The two, big, big wars began, it was not for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. The Germans wanted that their sense gratification is being hampered by the Britishers, "Declare war." That means it was a war of sense gratification. "The Britishers are satisfying their sense gratification; we cannot do. All right, fight." So, there was no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Hm. Then? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question number three. It is said that the greatest strength of Hinduism is its catholicity, or breadth of outlook, broadness of vision, but that this is also the greatest weakness in that there is very little common prescribed religious observances which are obligatory for all as in other religions. Is it necessary and possible to outline certain basic minimum observances for all Hindus. *Prabhupāda: So far Vedic religion is concerned, it is not for the Hindus. That is to be understood. The sanātana*-dharma. It is for all living entities, all human beings. It is called sanātana-dharma. That I have already explained. The living entity is sanātana, God is sanātana, and there is sanātana-dharma. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. And where Kṛṣṇa is described sanātana in the Eleventh Chapter. Do you remember? He is described as sanātana. Sanātanam. So actually, the Vedic system is called sanātana-dharma. Not Hindu dharma. This is a wrong conception. The sanātana-dharma is meant for all living entities, not the so-called Hindus, Muslims, Christians. For everyone. That is sanātana-dharma. These are later misconceptions, Hinduism and this ism, that ism, that ism. Actually, it is called sanātana-dharma, or varṇāśrama-dharma. That is meant for everyone. But because it was being followed regularly in India and Indians were called by the Muslims on the other side of the River Sind, or Sindu, and they pronounce Sind as Hind. Therefore they called India as Hindustan, means on the other side of Sindu, or Hindu River. Otherwise, it has no Vedic reference. So this Hindu dharma has no Vedic reference. The real Vedic dharma is sanātana-dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. First of all he has to understand this. Now that sanātana-dharma, or Vedic dharma, being distorted, not being obeyed, not being carried properly, it has come to the understanding of Hinduism. That is a freak understanding. That is not real understanding. We have to study sanātana-dharma or varṇāśrama-dharma. Then we'll understand what is Vedic religion. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So is there anything obligatory or prescribed for all people who follow this religion, that a minimum observance that they must do? *Prabhupāda: Yes, sanātana... The sanātana... Every living entity is eternal, sanātana. God is eternal, and we can live with God in a place which is called sanātana*-dhāma. So this reciprocation is called sanātana-dharma. So Vedic religion means this sanātana-dharma, not Hindu dharma, or Muslim dharma, or this dharma. Read it. Rādhāvallabha: Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhāvallabha: Translation? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhāvallabha: Your are the supreme primal objective. You are the best in all the universes. You are inexhaustible and You are the oldest. You are the maintainer of religion, the eternal Personality of Godhead. *Prabhupāda: This is wanted. Kṛṣṇa is eternal, we are eternal, and the place we live, exchanging our feelings, that is eternal. And the system which teaches this eternal system of reciprocation, that is called sanātana*-dharma. That is meant for everyone. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So what daily prescribed religious observances would one who is aspiring for this sanātana*-dharma, what would they do? What kind of daily prescribed religious observance? Because the complaint is that within this Hinduism, or let's say sanātana-dharma, there is such a breadth, there is so much variegatedness in different types... *Prabhupāda: So why do you go to variegatedness? Why don't you take the real purpose of religion from Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa says, "This is real dharma," sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ... [Bg. 18.66]." Why don't you take that? Why are you going to variegated things or varieties under the name of so-called Hinduism? Why do you go there? Why don't you take the advice of the sanātana, Kṛṣṇa? You don't take what is sanātana-dharma, what sanātana God says, and you say, "How we can come to the right point, avoiding so many varieties?" Why you go to the varieties? Take to this one consciousness, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ. Why don't you do that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can people practically do this on a daily basis? *Prabhupāda: How we are doing? Is it not practical? They'll manufacture their own way of religion. And that is... That is not practical. You take this practical system. What is this? Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī... Where is impracticality? You simply think of Kṛṣṇa, become His devotee, worship Kṛṣṇa. Or just offer a little obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty? Why don't you do that? Kṛṣṇa says, "This is the duty. If you do this, you come to Me." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśaya. "Without any doubt you'll come to Me." Why don't you do that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ [Bg. 18.66]. Why you remain Hindu? Why you remain Muslim? Why you remain Christian? Give up all this nonsense. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa. "I am devotee of Kṛṣṇa, servant of Kṛṣṇa." Take this. Then everything will be immediately done. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya. So why you want to remain Hindu? And try to adjust things? Dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. What God says, that is dharma. Now, God says that "You give up all this. You just surrender unto Me." So take that dharma. Why you want to remain a Hindu? And who is a Hindu who does not accept the authority of Kṛṣṇa? Who is a Hindu? If any Hindu says, even up till now, that "I don't care for Kṛṣṇa and Bhagavad-gītā," he will be immediately rejected as a madman. Why don't you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction? Why do you go outside? Therefore your trouble is there. You do not know what is religion, you do not know what is Hinduism, what is sanātana-dharma. You do not know anything. And actually, practically, you see that in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there are so-called Hindus, so-called Muslims. They do not care for Muslim or Hindu or Christian. They are taking care of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. If you take care of false religious system, then you suffer. You take real religious system, then you'll be happy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes it's also seen, say, that Muslims and Hindus they will be converted to Christianity, and the same argument can be given. So what would be the difference for the, in this case, that one who is identifying himself as Christian or one is identifying himself as devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: First of all, you have to understand what is religion. The religion is God's law. You have to understand. Religion does not mean your manufactured, concocted ideas. What God says, that is religion. So here Kṛṣṇa is God. He is saying. Therefore this is religion. Is that clear? Make it clear. So long one point is not clear, don't go to the next point. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Especially he is trying to inquire that it appears that India, for example, today... *Prabhupāda: But India, they have given up the real religious system, sanātana*-dharma, or varṇāśrama-dharma. Fictitiously, they have accepted a hodgepodge thing which is called Hinduism. Therefore there is trouble. Everywhere, but India especially, they are... Vedic religion... Vedic religion means varṇāśrama-dharma. That is... Kṛṣṇa says, God says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. So that is, what is called, obligatory. Just like law is obligatory. You cannot say that "I don't take this law." No. You have to take it if you want to have a happy. You cannot become outlaw. Then you'll not be happy. You'll be punished. So God says mayā sṛṣṭam. "It is given by Me." So how we can deny it? And that is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharmam means the order given by the God. The God says that cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. "For the proper management of the human society, there should be these four divisions, social divisions." So you have to take it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This would be the prescription for all people? *Prabhupāda: Everyone, for all people. There must be on the head the intelligent class of men who will give advice. Then next class, the... That is all given in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But when you become Kṛṣṇa conscious you can give up all these regulative principles directly. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. A brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, or this dharma, that dharma, Hindu dharma, Mussulman dharma. If you have everything, simply... Because the ultimate aim of dharma is to come to Kṛṣṇa. "You directly come to Me; then everything is all right." Devotee: So many other people, they concoct their own system and they say "This is the way to go to God." Prabhupāda: Then let them suffer. What can be done? What can be done? If you don't take the laws of the state, you manufacture your own laws, then you'll suffer. If the state says, "Keep to the right," and if make your own law, "No, keep to the left," then you'll suffer. It's a fact. Devotee: So many innocent people are also... *Prabhupāda: So innocent suffers. Intelligent never suffers. Only the rascals, innocent, they suffer. Innocent means rascal also. He does not know what is, what to do. The rascal is also innocent. A child is innocent, but he's a rascal. It does not mean because he's innocent, he's not rascal. Rascal means he's innocent also. The child does not know that, "If I touch fire it will burn." Therefore he's a rascal. But because he is child, innocent, he'll not be excused. The rascal and innocent on the same category. Innocence of law is not, no excuse. If you go to the court, if you say, "Sir I did not know there is law like this," that does not mean... You must suffer. Why Kṛṣṇa comes? He gives advice that "You do this. Don't remain innocent and rascal. Then you'll be happy." Why should you stick to the rascaldom? He's personally advising. He says sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Why you are sticking to Hinduism and Muslimism and Christianism? Why? That is rascaldom. You take to His advice and you be happy. Devotee: But these religions are just material. These Hindu, Christian, Muslim, they're following these things because that is simply their destiny? They don't know how to please God, so that's simply part of their happiness and distress? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, now Kṛṣṇa is asking, "You give up this rascaldom." You do it. Don't go to the history. He says, "You give up." You give up. That's all. Then you are perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are going to the history? History may be something else, but now He says directly "Give up," you give up. That's all. Finish this business. Hm. That is... The point is clear now? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Then go on. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question number four. Even a well read, widely traveled, and enlightened editor like the late Śrī Frank Moraes... I think that's how you... M*-o-r-a-e-s. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Who is he? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know. He's late though. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He has died, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's dead. He was enlightened. "...equated Hindu ethos with castism." He equated that Hindu culture, or Hindu ethos, and castism is one and the same. "Will the fundamental values of Hinduism be in any way affected by the eradication of castism, towards which a concerted effort is now being made at all levels?" *Prabhupāda: But it cannot be done. This is another foolishness. Because Kṛṣṇa says, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. But the difficulty is the caste system is coming on account of false notion that a brāhmaṇa is the son of a brāhmaṇa. That is caste system. But Kṛṣṇa does not say. He says, "By quality and work." He never says, "By birth." So this so-called castism in India that is a false notion of cātur-varṇyaṁ. Real cātur-varṇyaṁ means guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. One must be qualified. And how one is qualified? That is also described. Satya śamo damo titikṣva ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. So there must be education. It is not that to abolish the caste system which is contaminated by false conception, or birth right conception. This wrong caste system should be abolished and training centers should be opened how to train a person to become brāhmaṇa or to become kṣatriya. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. So you cannot avoid it, but because you have misconceived the caste system, that should be abolished, and the system recommended by Kṛṣṇa, that should be taken. Otherwise you cannot avoid it. Caste system will remain. Just like truthfulness. So all over the world you'll find somebody who is truthful. Why do you take it: "His father was truthful, therefore he is truthful."? This is nonsense. This is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa never said that. The father may be Hiranyakasipu, but his son is Prahlāda. Or a son... Not that the, one has to become exactly like the father. It may be. There is every possibility, but it is not a fact that the son becomes like the father. It is not fact. So similarly, the first class man is truthful. Now, wherever you find a truthful man, you classify him as brāhmaṇa. That is wanted. Why do you take that "Here is a son of truthful man; *therefore he is brāhmaṇa"? That is misconception. You have to pick up the truthful men all over the world and classify them as brāhmaṇa. That we are doing. "If you follow these principles, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat*-eating, you are brāhmaṇa. Come on." His father may be meat-eater or gambler or drunkard, but he is agreeing, "All right, come on, this come. You are welcome." Then it will be all right. You cannot abolish the truthful class of men. There are... You'll find truthful men everywhere. So you have to pick up. So Kṛṣṇa says that, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā, guṇa-karma... You pick up the quality of men and put them in the brahminical class, and then next, kṣatriya class, then vaiśya class, then śūdra class. But you cannot abolish that system. That is a false attempt. Because more or less, there will be a class of men who are truthful. You cannot abolish. More or less, there will be a class of men who are sinful. So as soon as you want to pick up from a family, then it is mistake, miscalculated. That caste system should be abolished. But real classification... Not caste. It is classification. Intelligent class of men, or truthful class of men, the fighter class of men, that will continue all over the world. You cannot abolish it. Even if you abolish caste system in India, you cannot abolish the class of truthful men. That is not possible. In spite of so much degradation, a class of men will remain truthful, a class of men will remain sinful. More or less. You cannot abolish this. So this is false attempt. And this caste system is also false. It is not based on the right description of caste system. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You're saying, rather, it's a classification according to the quality of a man's... Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. That must be there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And what will be the benefit of classifying men according to their qualities? *Prabhupāda: Benefit will be then the whole thing will go in order. That is already described many times, that there must be brain, there must be arms, there must be belly, there must be legs for the complete composition of the body. If there is no brain, there is no head, then what is the use of these arms and legs and belly? It is all dead. So in the society, human society, if there is not a class of selected, truthful, honest, and so many brahminical qualifications, then society is ruined. Therefore they are perplexed. Everyone is a śūdra. Go to the factory. That's all. Go to the factory and bring money. And he is getting 25 dollars or 50 dollars daily and immediately purchasing wine and flat on Bowery Street. You'll produce such men, useless men, disturbing in the human society. You cannot make classless. If you make classless, naturally they will be all śūdras, fourth*-class men. Then there will be society chaos. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another part of this same question: if the harijanas, who constitute a sizable population amongst the Hindus, are made to feel that their very religion... Prabhupāda: These are all artificial. The harijana word was used by Gandhi unnecessarily for a class of men who are not fit for the position. Harijana means "the men of Hari." Just like Nārada. Nārada is called harijana. Great devotee is called harijana, "the persons related with Hari." But if you select some bhangis and camaras and keep them as he is and rubberstamp it, "Here is a harijana," what will be the effect? There is no harm to pick up a low class man and to elevate him to the position of harijana. There is no impediment. You can do. But if you keep him a low class man and if you stamp him harijana, then what will be benefit? Just like we are initiating selected men. "Are you ready to follow these rules and regulation? When he says, then "Come on. Become harijana." Not that "I'll keep myself in that same abominable condition of life and I shall become harijana." So this "harijana" word has come from Gandhi. He did not try to make him real harijana. He simply rubberstamped him. So what is the value of this harijana? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's another section to this question. In other words, how can all sections of Hindus be made to take an equal interest and have the same sense of belonging to the Hindu religion? *Prabhupāda: Why you sticking to the Hindu religion? Any Hindu will accept Bhagavad*-gītā and Kṛṣṇa. So why not ask them to take Kṛṣṇa? Why so-called Hinduism? Who is a Hindu who will deny the authority of Kṛṣṇa? Is he a Hindu? Every Hindu observes Janmāṣṭamī, the birthday of Kṛṣṇa. So why do they not take Kṛṣṇa's advice and remain practically Hindu? They will not take advice of Kṛṣṇa, and they, how they can claim to be Hindu? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So can all people have an equal interest in religion despite their different classifications? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already explained, that any human civilized man, he has got some religion. So religion, basic principle of religion is with reference to God. So here is God, What God says, if you take that system, then it will be perfect, not only for the Hindus, for Christian, for Mohammedans, for everyone. And that is being practically done in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We have got devotees from all groups of human society and they are taking to it. It is practical. There is no difficulty. So Hindus, Muslims, Christian, everyone take to this Kṛṣṇa religion, Kṛṣṇite. Kṛṣṇian. (laughter) Not Christian, but Kṛṣṇian. The word christo is also a Greek word. From this christo the Christ has come. So instead of c*-h-r-i, k-r-i, the same thing. Christian or Kṛṣṇian, or Christian. Krishta is also another broken, I mean, another spelling of Kṛṣṇa. In India, if one's name is Kṛṣṇa, we say Krishta. My younger brother, his name was Kṛṣṇa. So we were calling him Krishta. So Krishta, Christian. So actually, if we take the root meaning, Christian means Krishnian or Krishtian. So that is a controversial point, but everyone can take to Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be settled up. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. Make everything clear. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to go on, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, you can go. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Next question: Swami Vivekananda... Prabhupāda: Hm. (laughter) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He had given a positive suggestion that one of the best ways for the harijanas to command respect amongst all sections of... Prabhupāda: Where Vivekananda was there when harijana word was manufactured by Gandhi? At that time Vivekananda was not there. So why he's putting Vivekananda? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vivekananda has already died when this harijana name... Prabhupāda: Long, long ago. (laughter) Hari-śauri: He's just using the word "harijana" in place of śūdra or what was formerly "untouchables." Prabhupāda: He can use, but this "harijana" word was manufactured by Gandhi. Vivekananda died some time, 1900... I do not exactly remember. When Gandhi's movement was not started. Gandhi's movement was started in 1917. And long ago Vivekananda expired. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, his question is, "Swami Vivekananda has given a positive suggestion that one of the best ways for harijanas to command respect among all sections of people is to learn Sanskrit, the study of which is being neglected even by brāhmaṇas today. What incentives can be given to harijanas to learn Sanskrit, the repository of Indian culture and religion?" *Prabhupāda: That is another misgiving. They will never be able to learn Sanskrit, and neither it is possible that by learning Sanskrit they will be elevated. There are many Sanskrit scholars. So how they are elevated? They are rotting. It is not a good suggestion, this. If the harijana actually becomes harijana, then it will benefit. That training we can give. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that we can make a harijana, a so*-called, I mean to say, camaras, bhangis... Now they understand harijana means he must be a camara or bhangi. But that is not the actual... harijana means devotee, "The man of Hari." So in spite of their illiteracy in Sanskrit language, we can make him harijana, actually. So why do you take the trouble of learning Sanskrit? Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. Pāpa-yoni means low-grade birth. So anyone. That includes the camaras, bhangis, they can be purified if they take to the shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. The best thing is to induce them to come to Kṛṣṇa. Then they will be purified. And the simple method is recommended by Kṛṣṇa Himself and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, His incarnation: this kīrtana. Engage them in saṅkīrtana movement which is being pushed by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and they will be purified. They don't require to learn Sanskrit even. As he, it is. Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and they will be purified. And if you want to teach them Sanskrit, it will take three thousand years. (laughter) That is impossible. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is a fact though that the repository of Indian culture and religion is Sanskrit. So are you saying then that the harijanas or these class of people... *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is Sanskrit, but the Vedic mantras are received not by learning Sanskrit, but by hearing from the authorized person. Therefore it is called śruti. It is in Sanskrit because there was no other language. Sanskrit was the only language. So now they're being translated into English. So it doesn't matter whether it is in Sanskrit or English, one has to learn it by hearing from the proper person. That is wanted. It is... The Vedic mantras are called śruti, not Sanskriti. (laughter). It is called śruti. Śruti means the first business is hearing. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. What is the purpose of going to guru? Means to, guru is the authorized person from hear..., from him hear. So it doesn't require that one has to learn Sanskrit. We have got so many disciples. It is not that they first of all learned Sanskrit. They heard. It may be in Sanskrit language or in English language. It doesn't matter. Let him hear the real fact. That is wanted. Although the Vedic mantras are in Sanskrit, the process to understand is to hear. To hear it may be any language, to hear and understand, then he becomes perfect. It is not the Sanskrit language. It is the hearing which is important. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So will this bring respect...? *Prabhupāda: Śravanaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu. Hear and chant about Viṣṇu. That is wanted. Not kṛn pratyaya, di*-pratyaya, du-pratyaya. No. That is not wanted. Na hi na hi rakṣati du-kṛn-kāraṇe. This will not save you. If you have become a Sanskrit scholar, du-pratyaya, di-pratyaya, da-pratyaya, that will not save you. Na hi na hi rakṣati dukṛn-kāraṇe, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha mate. So this, they are thinking by learning Sanskrit they will become perfect. In the Bhagavad-gītā I don't find that "You learn Sanskrit, then you become perfect." "You surrender unto Me, then you become perfect." That is wanted. If you learn Sanskrit, there is no harm, but it is not the only condition that "You have to learn Sanskrit, then you will be able." Who knows in our camp Sanskrit? Who knows Sanskrit? How many? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Pradyumna. Prabhupāda: He may know little. (laughter) Sanskrit language... that is... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His question here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, especially is that the harijanas are very downtrodden... Prabhupāda: Downtrodden, you keep them downtrodden. You manufacture wine and let them drink, and he will be uplifted. One side, (chuckles) you are manufacturing wine and advertising, "Come on, take here," and you remain, become harijana. How it is possible? You must stop all this nonsense, the slaughterhouse, the liquor shop or the breweries or the prostitute quarter. You stop this. But that cannot be also stopped. Anyone who wants to become harijana, he can become in spite of all these things. He can defend himself. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So should there be some effort? Prabhupāda: What is that effort? Teach them Sanskrit? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, to make the harijanas respectable. *Prabhupāda: Anyone can respectable. That is already described. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya [Bg. 9.32]. Kirāta*-hūṇāndra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ. Everyone can be, śudhyanti, they can be purified. But if you take the real process, this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness process. Otherwise, simply by learning Sanskrit, what will be able...? There are so many big, big Sanskrit scholars in India. They are loitering in the street. Huh? What is that? You have met so many scholars. What is their position? That Prabhakara you know? He was my first student. Pradyumna: Ah, Prabhakara. Hm, hm. Prabhupāda: He's a big Sanskrit scholar. But what is his position? He got big, big position also, but he could not stay. If one's mind is not fixed up, you learn Sanskrit or no Sanskrit, it will.... [break] To make a good man, it is not necessary that one has to learn Sanskrit. He can be made good provided he fully surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcana. If one has got unflinching faith and devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. All good qualities will develop automatically. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad guṇā. If he's not a devotee, he will hover over the mental concoction. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. Then he'll remain in the material platform. Never mind he's a Sanskrit scholar or this or that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to hear another question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is said that while the śrutis embody the eternal truths of Hinduism, the smṛtis, which embody the rules of conduct need to be revised according to the dictates of the changing times. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Will such a stand be acceptable to all sections of Hindus, and if so, how can the new smṛtis come into being and who will give them sanction and sanctity? *Prabhupāda: The authority will give. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He is giving authority. The śāstra is giving authority. But in this age, Kali*-yuga, it is full of faults, the ocean of faults. And Śukadeva Gosvāmī is giving direction, So although in this age there are so many faults, it is like the ocean of fault, but still there is one very great advantage, that simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, one becomes purified. So this smṛti injunction we should take up, and actually we see all over the world how it is purifying all section of people. So take this, then śruti smṛti... Ah... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purāṇadi? *Prabhupāda: Yes, everything will be fulfilled. The easiest method. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the śrutis are eternally... *Prabhupāda: Śruti, it is based on śruti. Śabdad anavrtti. In the Vedānta*-sūtra. Simply by chanting, śabdat, brahma, śabda brahma. Śabdad anavṛtti, in the Vedānta-sūtra. By chanting the holy name of Lord, one can become liberated. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The smṛtis are based on the śrutis? *Prabhupāda: Yes, smṛti... Bhagavad*-gītā is considered smṛti. So Bhagavad-gītā also says: satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. Śruti-smṛti-purāṇadi [BRS 1.2.101]. Brahma-vaivarta Purāṇa: Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Ādi 17.21]. And it is practiced by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam [SB 11.5.32]. Kṛṣṇaṁ varṇayati. Always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So these are the evidences. So introduce this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Everyone will be purified. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is smṛti more than just rules of conduct? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Smṛti means... The Vedas are considered as, taken as śruti. But simply by hearing one cannot understand. Therefore smṛtis, they have explained. Purayati iti purāṇa. Complete. The Vedic mantra is not always understood. Just like the Vedānta mantra, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. This is very short cut. But Bhāgavata explains, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ. Explanation. The smṛti is explanation. So either you take śruti or smṛti, subject matter is the same. But these are the evidences. Śruti*-smṛti-purāṇādi-pāñcarātriki-vidhiṁ vinā [BRS 1.2.101]. You cannot be purified or become actually God conscious without reference to the śruti-smṛti. We are pushing on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is not whimsically. It is based on śruti-smṛti-pāñcarātriki-vidhi. Therefore it is becoming effective. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it necessary from time to time to change the smṛtis? Prabhupāda: That cannot be changed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Smṛti cannot be changed? *Prabhupāda: Nothing can be changed. But according to the time you have to... Just like in Kali*-yuga the smṛti order is kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. So you have to do this. Just like a physician gives a medicine that "Morning you take this medicine, in the evening you take this medicine." It is not a change of treatment. It is according to the time a different medicine. But it is recommended by the physician, not by your whims. Śruti-smṛti cannot be changed, but they have recommended different process in different times. So the reference to the śruti-smṛti is there, authority is there. It is... You cannot modify. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is no question then of, as he says, "new smṛti." *Prabhupāda: No. New smṛti, they may take it, "new smṛti." But smṛti is smṛti. It is not new. You have to give reference to the past śruti*-smṛti. Otherwise, it is not... Veda pramāṇa, śabda pramāṇa. Otherwise there is no evidence. It is invalid, not valid. You cannot change the original śruti-smṛti, but you have to take the timely recommendation. Just like Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva... [Ādi 17.21]. This is the only method. You take it. But this is śruti-smṛti-pramāṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Then they say that if this is the method, then how does Deity worship fit into the scheme? Prabhupāda: You can avoid even Deity worship, but you cannot avoid chanting. Devotee: Their idea is to abolish Deity worship. They consider it antiquated. *Prabhupāda: If you want... If you want... Why you should try to avoid this? That means you are disregarding the śruti*-smṛti. But that is not the policy, that you should avoid it. But if you..., it is not possible... Just like it is not possible to introduce the Deity worship everywhere, anywhere. It doesn't matter. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is not avoiding. It is the circumstance that does not make very favorable. Just like I did not introduce the Deity worship in the beginning. That was not possible. But when there is favorable condition we introduced. That is not avoidance. That is conditional. But especially chanting, that is possible in any condition of life. That is possible. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So there's no question then, as he says, of bringing new smṛtis which would come into being if someone would give them sanction and authority. The position as you... *Prabhupāda: But there cannot be new smṛtis. We are giving the sanction to Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra because it is already there in the śruti. But for this time it is suitable. I am taking a certain type of medicine in the evening, it is already recommended by the physician. I am not doing it whimsically. So whimsically you cannot change. It must have reference to the śruti-smṛti-purāṇadi [BRS 1.2.101]. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can anyone change... Prabhupāda: No! Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...the rules of conduct as regarded in the smṛtis? *Prabhupāda: Nobody can change. Nobody can change. But rules and regulation for different times, different circumstances are there in the śruti*-smṛti. We have to take it. You cannot change. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And who will sanction that application? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He said. He's authority. He's ācārya. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The ācārya must sanction for the particular time and place. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are following the footprints of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. It is not whimsical. You have to follow the authority in all circumstances. You cannot avoid. That is illegal. It will have no power. Just like all of a sudden you make a low class man a harijana. It will not stay. But you can make harijana any class of man provided you adopt the proper means. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think one more question then would be appropriate because it kind of ties in which this last question. "Number seven: Hinduism has always renewed or revitalized itself according to the need of the times. In today's context, are any correctives called for, and if so, who will bring them about and how can they be brought about and made acceptable to all the masses? *Prabhupāda: First of all, who will take it? Kṛṣṇa has given already according to the time, He has summarized the whole Vedic scripture in the Bhagavad*-gītā, but who is taking it? And Caitanya Mahāprabhu and all the ācāryas, they have explained how to accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness or Kṛṣṇa's instruction. So first thing you must be ready to take the presentation according to the time and circumstances. Then everything will be all right. If you manufacture your own way of life, if you do not take it from the authority, then it will be failure. Just like this harijana. Harijana is very good idea, make everyone harijana. But harijana is being picked up from the lowest class of men, the bhangis and camaras. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, papa-yoni. But how this pāpa-yoni can be purified? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya. By accepting Kṛṣṇa as everything, that means full surrender. Then he can be, even if he's pāpa-yoni, he can be rectified. But if there is no question of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa and if you rubberstamp a low class man that he has become harijana, how it will be effective? The condition is there, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya. Find out this verse. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth, women, vaiśyas, as well as śūdras, can approach the supreme destination." Prabhupāda: Yes. The condition is that "those who take shelter unto Me." Now, Mahatma Gandhi manufactured the harijana, but where there is the teaching that "You take shelter of Kṛṣṇa?" So how this harijana will be effective? The condition is there, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya [Bg. 9.32]. Read the purport. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower or higher clases of people. In the material conception of life there are such divisions, but for a person engaged in transcendental devotional service to the Lord there are not. Everyone is eligible for the supreme destination. In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is stated that even the lowest, who are called caṇḍālas, dog-eaters, can be elevated by association with a pure devotee. Therefore devotional service and guidance of a pure devotee are so strong that there's no discrimination between the lower and higher classes of men. Anyone can take to it. The most simple man, taking center of the pure devotee, can be purified by proper guidance." *Prabhupāda: Yes. The guidance means how to take him to Kṛṣṇa's shelter. Then he will be all right. The guidance is wrong, no question of Kṛṣṇa, and he, simply by rubberstamping, "Here is a harijana," how it will be effective? Therefore it is failure. He remains the same drunkard, same meat*-eater, and he becomes harijana. How it is possible? The guidance required. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. He must be guided. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You started this explanation by saying, "But who will take it?" So is this to say that this religion that you're speaking of is not trying to be made acceptable to the masses, or is it only for those who will take it? Prabhupāda: No, no. Unless you take it, where is question of religion? So that requires guidance. Just like to make a child educated, there is teacher required. Automatically how he can...? A child, now you give him a rubberstamp, "Now you are MA." Is he MA? He must be guided to pass the MA examination, then he'll be, he's MA. And "Because he is born in a certain family, he cannot be MA," that is not the fact. He can be MA provided the guidance is there, training is there. He can become MA. It doesn't matter that because he is lowborn he cannot become MA. No. He can become. The training is how to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Then he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It appears from his question that his idea is that Hinduism is so flexible that whatever condition of life the masses are in, Hinduism will kind of envelop them, and they can still call themselves Hindus. But what you're saying is that actually the standard is there... *Prabhupāda: We have already refuted. There is no such thing as Hinduism in the Vedic conception. It is sanātana*-dharma or varṇāśrama-dharma. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is sanātana*-dharma so wide that everyone can be... *Prabhupāda: Sanātana means eternal. So na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. The identification of the living entity is already described, that it does not perish after annihilation of this body. That is sanātana. So that is meant for everyone. Not that the Hindus, after giving up this body, exist, and the Muslim or Christian does not exist. Everyone exists. Everyone is eternal, so sanātana*-dharma is meant for everyone. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is there anyone actually outside of sanātana*-dharma then? *Prabhupāda: If he thinks. Otherwise nobody is outside. If you think that you are not... There are so many rascals, they think that with the body everything is finished. But he may think so, but that is not fact. Similarly, if one thinks that "I am not sanātana*-dharmi, I am Christian." You may think like that, but actually you are sanatanist. But if you think otherwise, you can think. Who can check it? When Kṛṣṇa says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20], the soul does not annihilate after the destruction of the body, is it meant for the Hindus? Everyone. Everyone is a living entity, everyone is a soul, and he's eternal. And eternal means sanātana. Hari-śauri: So it depends on how one acts as to whether he can be accepted as... Prabhupāda: Then... One acts means he must act accordingly. If he does not act accordingly, that is his business. That's all. Hari-śauri: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances) [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...for answers to these questions. Prabhupāda: What they will answer? What do they know? All rascals. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you speak perfectly. Prabhupāda: The scientist agrees? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have spoken to Tamal Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja today about the... [break] *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is question number eight for this Bhavan's Journal, Bombay. We've covered the first seven questions. The eighth question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is "In the Kali*-yuga, bhakti has been described as the most suitable and easiest of paths for God realization. Yet how is it that Vedantic teachings, with their accent on jñāna, are being given the pride of place by noted savants or knowers? *Prabhupāda: The so*-called Vedantists are bluffers. They do not know what is Vedānta. But the things are going on that people want to be bluffed and the bluffers take advantage of it, and therefore... Veda means knowledge, and anta means end of knowledge. That is the combination of Vedānta. So in the Vedānta the beginning is, Vedānta-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsāḥ. "Now, in the human form of life, they should inquire about the Absolute Truth." That is the Vedānta philosophy. And what is that Absolute Truth? Sūtra means in aphorism, in small words, a big philosophy is given. That is called sūtra. A little link. So Vedānta-sūtra begins when one is inquisitive to understand the Absolute Truth. That is called Vedānta-sūtra. And it is answered, first question is now about brahma-jijñāsa, inquisitive, inquiry about Brahman. So Brahman is, in nutshell, described: "Brahman means the origin of everything." Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. All the Vedas, all the book of knowledge, their business is how to search out God. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. So the whole Vedānta is description of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But because in this Kali-yuga people will not be able to study Vedānta nicely on account of lack of education, therefore Vyāsadeva personally wrote a commentary on the Vedānta. That commentary is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Bhāṣyaṁ brahma-sūtrānam **. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the real commentary on the Vedānta-sūtra written by the author himself. The Vedānta-sūtra is also given by Vyāsadeva, and under the instruction of Nārada, his spiritual master... Get this light on. He wrote commentary on the Vedānta-sūtra. That is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also begins with the same aphorism, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñāh sva-rāṭ [SB 1.1.1]. So actually, Vedānta-sūtra is explained by the author of the Vedānta in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So some rascals, without understanding Vedānta, without reading the commentary, natural commentary of the Vedānta-sūtra they are posing themselves as Vedantist. That means they are misguiding people. And because people are not educated, they're accepting these rascals as Vedantists. Actually, the so-called Vedantists, they are bluffers. They are not Vedantists. They do not know anything of the Vedānta. That is the difficulty. Otherwise, what is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that is real Vedānta. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsa. That is Vedānta-sutra-bhāṣya. Find out this verse. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kamasya nendriya pritir labho jiveta yavata [SB 1.2.10]. Prabhupāda: Find out. Hari-śauri: You know the number? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, First Canto. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Like that. So actually Vedānta-sūtra is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and if we take Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as the real explanation of Vedānta-sūtra, then we understand what is Vedānta. And if we take the shelter of the so-called bluffers, then that is not Vedānta. People do not know anything and they can be bluffed and cheated by anyone. That is the... And now they should learn from this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement what is Vedānta and what is the explanation of Vedānta. Then they will be benefited. If we take Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as the real commentary on Vedānta-sūtra, then we'll find that in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. In this Kali-yuga, which is the ocean of all faults, there is one benediction, opportunity. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. One can become liberated simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This is real Vedānta. And actually it is happening. So they want to be misguided. And there are so many bluffers, they misguide them. What can be done? Otherwise Vyāsadeva has given already what is Vedānta-sūtra explanation. This is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Let them read the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. They will understand what is Vedānta. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that to say that the conclusion of the Vedānta*-sutra and the conclusion of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is one and the same. Bhakti. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Bhāṣyaṁ brahma*-sūtrānam **. This is the real commentary on the Vedānta-sūtra. And it begins with Vedānta-sutra. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca [SB 1.1.1]. Find out this? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Life's desires should never be aimed at gratifying the senses. One should desire to live only because human life enables one to inquire about the Absolute Truth." *Prabhupāda: That is the Vedānta*-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Here it is same thing explained, that don't be entrapped with these temporary bodily necessities of life, sense gratification. You must inquire about the Absolute Truth. In the next verse it is explained, vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam [SB 1.2.11]. Tattva. Tattva means truth. The truth is explained by the tattva-vit, one who knows the truth. How? Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. He is explained as Brahman, as Paramātmā, or as Bhagavān. This is Vedānta-sūtra. Now one should learn what is Bhagavān, what is Brahman, what is Paramātmā. In this way one should make advancement of his spiritual consciousness. That is the purpose of Vedānta-sūtra. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can I ask another question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. The Vedantists they have come from the impersonal explanation of Śaṅkarācārya. Śārīraka*-bhāṣya. But they simply give stress on the Śārīraka-bhāṣya, but there are other bhāṣyas. Bhāṣyas means commentary. And the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the natural commentary by the author himself. Besides that, there are Vedānta-bhāṣyas written by the Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, and all the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas. Unfortunately, they do not care to read all these Vedānta-bhāṣyas. They simply take Śārīraka-bhāṣya and become impersonalist and call themselves as Vedantist. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the reason for that? *Prabhupāda: Reason means people do not know. They cheat. Suppose I present something, a misconception, and if there are others also who can speak something on the... There are two lawyers. One is speaking one point of law, another lawyer is speaking. So if you take one side only, then how you will understand? So they are simply reading this Śārīraka*-bhāṣya. They are not reading other bhāṣyas, just like the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is natural. And they are cheating people. That's all. Why there are two lawyers? Two opposite parties, there are two lawyers. One lawyer says this law is like this, and the other party says, "No, it is this." And the judge is there, he will take what is the real meaning. But this interpretation is required when things are not clear. Now the Vedānta-sūtra says, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], "The Absolute Truth is that from whom everything comes in, emanates." Now, here is... In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa said that ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Clearly. That "I am the origin of everything, and everything comes from Me." So why don't you take it? Why simply you remain theoretically understood that Absolute Truth is that from which everything emanates. But when the Absolute Truth comes before you and says that "I am the origin of everything. Everything comes from Me." Why don't you accept Kṛṣṇa as Absolute Truth? Why do you take the so-called impersonalist view only, that God has no form? Here is God speaking, person. Why don't you take it? If you want to be cheated, then who can stop you? Here Kṛṣṇa says, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo [Bg. 15.15]. Find out this verse. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca... Hari-śauri: Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo... *Prabhupāda: Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedānta*-krd veda-vid eva cāham. Read it? Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: Vedānta*-kṛd, I am the compiler of Vedānta. Why these rascals do not take who compiled Vedānta? Vyāsadeva is the incarnation of God. He compiled Vedānta. Why he does not take the original Vedantist. Here it is clearly stated, vedānta-kṛd. Read the purport. Hari-śauri: "Translation: I am seated in everyone's heart and from Me comes remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas am I to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedānta and I am the knower of the Vedas." *Prabhupāda: So they do not go to the compiler of Vedānta. They go to a rascal. How they will understand Vedānta? Suppose I have written this book. If you cannot understand something, if you come directly to me, that is real. Why do you go to a rascal who has nothing to do with this book? If some rascal claims that "I am Vedanti," so your description should... Why shall I not go to the real compiler of Vedānta. Why shall I go to a rascal? That means they are rascals. They are being cheated. Let them take to Bhagavad*-gītā and let them take to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. They will understand Vedānta. They're real Vedantist. But these rascals, they're avoiding Bhagavad-gītā and avoiding Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and claiming themselves as Vedantist. So if you go to a cheater you'll be cheated. That is your business. Read the purport. *Hari-śauri: "The Supreme Lord is situated as Paramātmā in everyone's heart and it is from Him that all activities are initiated. The living entity forgets everything of his past life, but he has to act according to the direction of the Supreme Lord, who is witness to all his work. Therefore he begins his work according to his past deeds. Required knowledge is supplied to him and remembrance is given to him and he forgets also about his past life. Thus the Lord is not only all*-pervading, He is also localized in every individual heart. He awards the different fruitive results. He is not only worshipable as the impersonal Brahman, the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the localized Paramātmā, but as the form of the incarnation of the Vedas as well. The Vedas give the right direction to the people so that they can properly mold their lives and come back to Godhead, back to home. The Vedas offer knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa in His incarnation as Vyāsadeva is the compiler of the Vedānta-sūtra. The commentation of the Vedānta-sutra by Vyāsadeva in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam gives the real understanding of the Vedānta-sūtra. The Supreme Lord is so full that for the deliverance of the conditioned soul, He is the supplier and the digester of foodstuff, the witness of his activity, the giver of knowledge in the form of Vedas, and as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the teacher of the Bhagavad-gītā, He is worshipable by the conditioned soul. Thus God is all good, God is all-merciful. Anantaḥ praviṣṭaḥ śaṣṭa janānam. The living entity forgets as soon as he quits his present body, but he begins his work again initiated by the Supreme Lord. Although he forgets, the Lord gives him the intelligence to renew his work where he ended his last life. So not only does a living entity enjoy or suffer in this world according to the dictation from the Supreme Lord situated locally in the heart, but he receives the opportunity to understand Vedas from Him. If one is serious to understand the Vedic knowledge, then Kṛṣṇa gives the required intelligence. Why does he present the Vedic knowledge for understanding? Because a living entity individually needs to understand Kṛṣṇa. Vedic literature confirms this. Yo'sau sarvair vedair gīyate. In all Vedic literature, beginning from the four Vedas, Vedānta-sūtra and the Upaniṣads and Purāṇas, the glories of the Supreme Lord are celebrated. By performing Vedic rituals, discussing the Vedic philosophy and worshiping the Lord in devotional service, He is attained. Therefore the purpose of the Vedas is to understand Kṛṣṇa. The Vedas give us direction to understand Kṛṣṇa and the process of understanding. The ultimate goal is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Vedānta-sūtra confirms this in the following words: tat tu samanvayāt. One can attain perfection by understanding Vedic literature, and one can understand his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead by performing the different processes. Thus one can approach Him and at the end attain the supreme goal, who is no other than the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In this verse, however, the purpose of the Vedas, the understanding of the Vedas, and the goal of the Vedas are clearly defined." *Prabhupāda: He clearly says, vedānta*-kṛd. "I am the compiler of..." So why one should go to learn Vedānta from others? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How does bhakti tie into the Vedantic, the conclusion of Vedantic knowledge or wisdom? He says here that bhakti is the most suitable and easiest path of God realization. This is proclaimed, but the Vedantic teachings... He says in the Vedantic teaching the stress is on jñāna. Is that a fact? *Prabhupāda: Jñāna, what is jñāna? Jñāna means... That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. So unless one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, there is no jñāna. This is all nonsense. And they're passing as jñāna. There is no knowledge at all. Vedānta means the ultimate knowledge. So ultimate knowledge, the subject matter of ultimate knowledge is Kṛṣṇa, God. So if one does not know who is God, who is Kṛṣṇa, then where is knowledge? This is fact, the knowledge, but if a rascal claims that "I am man of knowledge," then what can be done? Knowledge is explained, that when one understands that Kṛṣṇa is everything.... Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. When one understands that Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything, then that is knowledge. Before that, there is no knowledge. It is simply misunderstanding. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. One may begin with impersonal Brahman by the speculative method or one can realize the, what is called, Paramātmā, localized aspect. That is the secondary stage. The final stage is understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. That is the final knowledge. But if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, then where is your knowledge? Knowledge, half-way knowledge is not knowledge. Complete knowledge. That complete knowledge is possible, as it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. Those who are striving to acquire knowledge, such persons, after many, many births, when actually by the grace of God and by the grace of a devotee comes to the knowledge, then he agrees, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], everything is Kṛṣṇa." Sa mahātmā, that mahātmā, great soul is very rare to be found. Sudurlabhaḥ. Durlabhaḥ means very rare to be seen but the word is used sudurlabhaḥ, very, very rare. So you cannot find such a mahātmā who understands clearly Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin... [Bg. 7.3]. Siddha means liberated. So one may become liberated even that.... but from that liberated position again he falls down unless he understands the Supreme Person, Kṛṣṇa. Aruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Unless he comes to the final understanding of the Absolute Truth, Kṛṣṇa, he'll fall down. Therefore so many Vedantists, they first of all, they give up this world brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, this world is false. But again they come down and they become busy in doing some philanthropic work, opening hospitals.... Why? If the world is false, why you are coming down again on this platform? That means they could not get any substance by their so-called renouncement of this world. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa, for going to that platform of siddhi, liberation, they had to undergo so much difficulties and austerities but still, even going there.... Just like these people are going to the moon planet and.... Actually whether they have gone or not, that is a doubtful thing, but the thing is, why they are coming down again? That is our challenge. If you have gone to the moon planet then colonise there. But why you have come down again and do not talk anything about. What do you think? Brahmatīrtha: Well I couldn't say. They've been there they say. Prabhupāda: They say, you believe, but we are common man, lay man, we say that if you have gone there, why you do not live there? Brahmatīrtha: Yes, they just bring back rocks to show us, we have rocks here. Prabhupāda: If there is rock, if there is sand, then why don't you colonise there? What is their answer? If there is same sand, same rock there, then why not... [break] ...some money and can bring some sand and bluff people that you have gone to moon planet. And people are satisfied, they're paying for another excursion to the Mars. This is going on. If you have gone there, there is land. If you fly in the sky and if you get a land then you can stay there. And because you cannot stay there, you come back again. So their... The Māyāvādīs position is there, āruhya kṛcchreṇa param, they merge into the impersonal Brahman but there is no place to stay, they come down again to this material world. You may go many thousands and millions of miles in the sky but you want to stay somewhere. But if you cannot get any place to stay then again you come to this Moscow and New York. So our enquiry is that if you have gone there, then why don't you stay there? What is the answer? Hm? Kīrtanānanda Maharaj? Kīrtanānanda: They say the atmosphere is not suitable. Prabhupāda: Then why rascal, you go there? (laughter) And spend so much money, rascal? You could not understand the atmosphere is not good for us, go there and spend so much money? Brahmatīrtha: They impress the people. Prabhupāda: That means they are bluffer and they bluffing the all fools and rascals. That's all. He could not understand before going there, before spending so much money the atmosphere is not good? Hari-śauri: But without personal, direct experience they... Prabhupāda: For your direct whims you have to spend so much money? The people are so befooled they do not challenge them. Yes. Everyone knows, suppose one is coming to the western country, Europe and America, we knew it, that it is cold country, we must take proper dress. And we have come and we are staying. So this is knowledge. So if you do not know what is the atmosphere there, what do you spend so much money? And again you are going to the Mars. Are you fixed up what is the position there? Then you'll again bring something, some dust and rock. (laughter) This business will go on at the expense of the... You can do. You have got money. You can do that. But we are Indians, we are coming from poor country. If you spend so much money for nothing, that is very, not very palatable for us. If one tenth of the expenditure you would have given to us for spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... No. Not a single paisa they will give. And they'll spoil money for going to the moon planet and bring some dust. That's ... Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is struggling to construct a small residential quarter here, and he has to beg, he has to collect, he has done... Why the government does not pay? "Here so many people are living. Let them live comfortably." But they'll spend this money, millions of dollars, and to bring some dust. Is that very sane government? And people are so fool that they do not challenge the government, "Why you are spending for nothing?" They can do that. They brought back Nixon. Why not stop this unnecessary expenditure? Hm? Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? Kīrtanānanda: It makes perfect sense, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. For nothing. And it is sure certainly you can write down, their Mars going also will be failure. Let it, you take in writing. I may die. I am old man. Take it down. It will be failure. I told ten years before that "It is childish." One press reporter inquired in San Francisco, what is your... "No, this is childish, wasting money." The reporter came to see me in Los Angeles. He remembered that. If you want to spend for nothing like that, you can do that. You have got money. Brahmatīrtha: If you say to a politician, "Give Śrīla Prabhupāda money..." Like I said to one man running for governor of this state, I said, "Why can't you help the community in New Vrindaban?" Prabhupāda: Oh, you said? Brahmatīrtha: He cited to me so many rules and regulations. They're not interested. They're interested in pleasing themselves. A man runs for government, his whole position to run for governor is to please himself so that he can become rich. *Prabhupāda: That's it. Here, you are right. Sense gratification. Nobody wants to do anything. Nixon captured the presidential post for his own satisfaction. And when the people found that "Here is a trick," they agitated and got him down. So this is the difficulty, that andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās the 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. We are blind and we are being guided by blind men. So the result is catastrophe. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can I ask another question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Question number nine. Is a guru essential to one to enter the spiritual path and attain the goal, and how does one recognize one's guru? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained, that guru is necessary. In the Bhagavad*-gītā when Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna were talking as friend, there was no conclusion. The talking was going on but no conclusion was made. Therefore Arjuna decided to accept Kṛṣṇa as his guru. Find out this verse. Kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ. Hari-śauri: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking you to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am your disciple and a soul surrendered unto you. Please instruct me." Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore guru is necessary. Everyone is perplexed. Nobody can decide himself. Even a physician, a medical man, when he is sick, he does not make his own treatment. He calls for another physician because he is sick, his brain is not in order. How he can prescribe the real medicine for himself? That is natural. So similarly, when we are perplexed, bewildered, we cannot make any solution, at that time the right person, guru, is required. It is essential. You cannot avoid it. So in our present existence we are all perplexed. Arjuna is representating the perplexed position of the materialistic person. And we are actually all perplexed. So under the circumstances, to give us real direction a guru is required. Now, here is the example that Arjuna decided Kṛṣṇa as guru. He did not go to anyone else to accept as guru. The explanation is there. Find out. Na hi prapaśyāmi. "Without you I don't find anybody..." Hari-śauri: Na hi prapaśyāmi mamāpanudyād yac chokam ucchoṣaṇam indriyāṇām, avāpya bhūmāv asapatnam ṛddhaṁ rājyaṁ surāṇām api cādhipatyam [Bg. 2.8]. "I can find no means to drive away this grief which is drying up my senses. I will not be able to destroy it even if I win an unrivalled kingdom on the earth..." Prabhupāda: No. There is another verse that "Without You I do not find anyone else who can give me real..." Hari-śauri: You know that one? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. Devotee: The doubt when... The fallen yogi. "Who else can...? I think so. Hari-śauri: I'll look it up in the... Prabhupāda: In the, is the,... There is... What are you finding? Hari-śauri: I'll look it up in the Sanskrit index. Prabhupāda: What is the śloka? The śloka I do not remember exactly, but there is continuation. You read the whole thing. What is that chapter? Hari-śauri: This is Chapter Two. Prabhupāda: Begin it. Hari-śauri: Start at the beginning of the chapter? Prabhupāda: Um, hm. Hari-śauri: "Seeing Arjuna full of compassion and very sorrowful, his eyes brimming with tears, Madhusūdana, Kṛṣṇa, spoke the following words." Prabhupāda: One translation of every verse, go on, read. Hari-śauri: "The Supreme Person Bhagavān said: My dear Arjuna, how have these impurities come upon you? They are not at all befitting a man who knows the progressive values of life. They do not lead to higher planets, but to infamy. O son of Pṛthā, do not yield to this degrading impotence. It does not become you. Give up such petty weakness of heart and arise, O chastiser of the enemy. Arjuna said: O killer of Madhu, Kṛṣṇa, how can I counteract with arrows in battle men like Bhīṣma and Droṇa who are worthy of my worship? It is better to live in this world by begging than to live at the cost of the lives of great souls who are my teachers. Even though they are avaricious, they are nonetheless superiors. If they are killed, our spoils will be tainted with blood. Nor do we know which is better, conquering them or being conquered by them. The sons of Dhṛtarāṣṭra, whom if we killed we should not care to live, are now standing before us on this battlefield. Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am your disciple and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me. I can find no means to drive away this grief which is drying up my senses. I will not be able to destroy it even if I win an unrivalled kingdom on the earth with sovereignty like that of the demigods in heaven. Sañjaya said: Having thus spoken, Arjuna the chastiser of the enemies told Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, I shall not fight, and fell silent. O descendant of Bhārata, at that time, Kṛṣṇa, smiling in the midst of both the armies spoke the following words to the griefstricken Arjuna." *Prabhupāda: So he has said already that "I do not find any other means to pacify me, and You are the only..." The purport is that Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa as guru to instruct him how to get relief from the perplexed position. So in this sense the real guru is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is guru. Not only for Arjuna, for everyone. So if we take instruction from Kṛṣṇa and abide by that order, instruction, then our life is successful. That is our mission. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means accept Kṛṣṇa as guru. We don't say... Don't divert your attention. We don't say that "I am Kṛṣṇa." We never say that. We simply ask people that "You abide by the order of Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], and we say that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Give up all other ideas of so-called dharma or religiosity." The same thing. But we don't say that you or me, "I am the authority." No, we don't say that. We say, "Kṛṣṇa is the authority, and you try to understand Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Therefore the question is guru. So here, from the behavior of Arjuna, we see that guru is necessary. Arjuna was talking with Kṛṣṇa as friend, but Arjuna saw that "This is, there is no good talking like this. We can continue talking.... Because we are equal status. Kṛṣṇa is my friend. I am also His friend. So He's answering, I am giving something. If this talking will go on, there will be no fruit." Therefore he said, "Now, Kṛṣṇa, I am becoming Your disciple." Disciple means there is no argument. Whatever the guru will say, you have to accept. That is disciple. That is final. There is no argument. So Arjuna put him into that position that "I cease to talk with You on equal level of friends. Now I accept You as guru." Therefore the guru is necessary, undoubtedly, because every one of us in perplexed position. But who is guru? Guru means Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's representative. And all others are bogus. If one does not say on the standard of Kṛṣṇa, then he's not guru. He's a bogus. In that way everyone can become guru. I have got some opinion, I can say. But unless.... Just like a lawyer is he who follows the standard law. If a lawyer says that "I have manufactured my own laws," so who will hear him? And what will be the use of becoming lawyer? No. You have to follow the standard law. Then you are a lawyer. And a big lawyer means who knows the standard laws very well. Similarly, guru is Kṛṣṇa and guru is necessary. But one must surrender to Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's representative. Then he will be successful. So so far.... Now, one can say that Kṛṣṇa is not present. But Kṛṣṇa is not present, how you can say? Kṛṣṇa's instruction is there, Bhagavad-gītā. How you can say that.... Kṛṣṇa, absolute, means the Supreme Lord is not different from His words also. The words of Kṛṣṇa and the Kṛṣṇa, they are the same. That is Absolute Truth. In the relative world the words "water" and the substance water are different. If I am thirsty, if I simply chant "water, water, water," my thirst will not be satisfied. I require the real water. That is relative world. But in the spiritual world.... Just like we are chanting Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa is different from Hare Kṛṣṇa, then how we are satisfied chanting whole day and night? This is the proof. The ordinary thing, if you chant, "Mr. John, Mr. John," after chanting three times you'll cease. But this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, if you go on chanting 24 hours, you'll never be tired. this is the spiritual Absolute Truth. That is practical. Anyone can perceive. So Kṛṣṇa's present by His words, by His representative. Why don't you take? You have to take guru. Why do you go to the pseudo guru who will mislead you? Why don't you take to the real guru? That is your mistake. Therefore you are now disappointed. Now you are in doubt whether guru is needed. Yes, guru is needed, but you go to the real guru. That is instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just find out this verse. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self*-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Prabhupāda: So this is guru. What, is that? One who has seen the truth. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Jñāninas tattva*-darśinaḥ. Prabhupāda: So one who has seen... Just like Arjuna has seen Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. He was talking. How that if you take instruction of Arjuna, then you understand. So what is the instruction of Arjuna? Find out in the Tenth Chapter. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier." *Prabhupāda: And that Vedānta*-sūtra says, athāto brahma jijñāsaḥ. Now here Arjuna is experienced, "You are the Supreme Brahman." So he has seen the Supreme Brahman. So you make Arjuna guru, Kṛṣṇa guru. Arjuna is representative of Kṛṣṇa, friend of Kṛṣṇa. So why do you go to a bogus guru? You must be cheated. Guru is essential. It is necessary. But take the real guru. But if you go to the bogus guru, you must be disappointed. For your treatment you need to go to a physician. That's all. When you are diseased you cannot say, "No, no, I don't want to..." It is necessary. But go to the real physician. Don't go to a cheater. He has no knowledge in the medical science, and he places himself as "I am physician, MD." Then you'll be cheated. The guru is necessary, that's a fact. But go to the real guru. Who is real guru? Real guru is Kṛṣṇa or one who has seen Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna. Take them. Then you'll be benefitted. And if you go to a bogus man who does not know Kṛṣṇa, who does not know what is Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then you must be cheated. So the answer is guru is absolute necessary. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. This is Vedic injunction, that one must go. But he must go to the real guru. And who is real guru? Who knows Kṛṣṇa. Take, for example, Arjuna, how he studied Kṛṣṇa. And he says, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma [Bg. 10.12]. Read the translation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala, and Vyāsa, proclaim this of You and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." *Prabhupāda: Arjuna is rectifying this because people may say, "Arjuna was Kṛṣṇa's friend, he is accepting Him as guru." No, Arjuna says, "Not only I, but other authorities, they also accept." So it is..., everything is clear, that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and He should be accepted as guru or His representative should be accepted guru. Then it will be... So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru. You take instruction from Him and be benefited. But one who is carrying this message, he is also authorized. Just like one money order, it is coming through the post office, but an ordinary peon is handing over the money. But he is representative of post office. Actually, the money order is being delivered by the post office, general post office. But it is coming through an ordinary peon. But because he is authorized to deliver you, he is also post office. He's as good as the post office. Just you have got a letter box, a small box, but if you put your letter there, your letter will surely go ten thousand miles away. Therefore, although it is a small box, you don't think it is small box. It is whole post office. Similarly, anyone who is carrying the message of Kṛṣṇa, don't think that he's ordinary man. If you imitate one box like that post box and put your letter, for thousand years it will lie down there. Because it is not authorized. So if somebody says this small box, red box, is as good as the post office, one may say, "Huh, this is small box. How it can be as good as the post office?" But you see. You post your letter, it will go. Therefore, sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. Guru is directly the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why? Because he is presenting the words of Supreme Personality of Godhead without any deterioration. Therefore he is so honored. So therefore the conclusion is guru is necessary and guru is he who is representative of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise he's bogus. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What about the so*-called gurus that take a little bit here and a little bit there? *Prabhupāda: So*-called gurus, they are so-called gurus. They are not gurus. That is already explained. If one does not speak what Kṛṣṇa speaks, he is not guru. If you accept so-called guru, that is your misfortune. What can be done? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of them will say some things that Kṛṣṇa says, but they'll take from other places also. What is the position of such persons? *Prabhupāda: He's most dangerous. He's most dangerous. He is opportunist. He's finding out customer, something here... According to the customer he is giving something, as the customers will be pleased. So he is not guru. He's a servant. He wants to serve the so*-called disciples so that he may be satisfied and pay him something. He's servant. He's not guru. Guru is the master. You cannot disobey guru. But if you become a servant, you want to please the disciple by flattering him to get his money, then you are not guru, you are servant. Just like a servant pleases the master. He's not guru. He's servant. So our position should be servant, yes, but servant of the Supreme. So guru means heavy. You cannot utilize him for satisfying your whims. That is not guru. (pause) Now? What other question? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's about eight o'clock, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Should we go on? *Prabhupāda: No. Tomorrow. (devotees offer obeisances*-break) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So we're continuing with this questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal in Bombay. This is question number ten. Question number ten, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is "Will mantras lose their sanctity if they are not in Sanskrit?" Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Will mantras lose their sanctity or holiness if they are not in the Sanskrit language? *Prabhupāda: Mantra in Sanskrit language, it may... The letters may be different, but it is a transcendental sound. The sound must be vibrated. You cannot translate it. The sound as it is... Just like Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra, the sound must be produced. You cannot translate. Then it will be artha, arthavad. That is prohibited. You cannot interpret or do other way... The sound vibration must be there. Then it will continue in sanctity. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that to say the mantras can be written in Devanāgarī script or in Roman letters, but... Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But the sound must be the same. Prabhupāda: Yes. The sound is important. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the sanctity is in the sound vibration and not so much that it's in the Sanskrit letters itself. May I ask another question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? "Are fasting and other dietary regulations necessary for leading a spiritual life?" Prabhupāda: Certainly. *To advance in spiritual life these things are essential, tapasya. Tapasya means voluntarily accepting something which may be painful. Just like we are recommending no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating. So those who are accustomed to these bad habits, for them, in he beginning it may be a little difficult. But in spite of becoming difficult, one has to do it. That is called tapasya. To rise early in the morning, those who are not practiced, it is a little painful, but one has to do it. So this is called tapasya. So according to the Vedic injunction, there are some tapasyas that must be done. It is not, "I may do it or not do it." It must be done. Just like in the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad it is ordered that one must go to the spiritual master. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. So there is no question of voluntarily, but it must be. And one must carry out by the order of a spiritual master and the order of the śāstra. That is called tapasya. Just like in our line ekādaśī is compulsory. One may feel some inconvenience fasting or simply eating fruits. No. It must be done. There are so many rules and regulations which is essential. It must be done. That is called tapasya. Without consideration whether it is convenient or inconvenient for you, which is, must be done, that is called tapasya. Tapaḥ, divyam... Just like Rsabhādeva orders that this human life is meant for tapasya. Therefore in our Vedic civilization we find so many rules and regulations. This is tapasya. From the very beginning of life, brahmacārī, to go to the spiritual master's place and act like menial servant. Nicavat. It is said. If the spiritual master says that "You go and pick up some wood from the forest," and one may be a king's son, but he cannot deny it, the spiritual master's order, "You must go." As Kṛṣṇa, He was ordered to go and pick up some dry wood from the forest. So He had to go. Although He was, His father was Nanda Mahārāja, a village vaiśya king, and Kṛṣṇa was Personality of Godhead, but He could not deny. He had to go. Nicavat. Just like menial servant. That is called brahmacārī. This is tapasya. So tapasya is so essential that one has to do it. There is no question of alternative. Then brahmacārī, then.... If he marries, then gṛhastha. That is also tapasya. He cannot have sex life whenever he likes. No. The śāstra says, "You must have sex life like this: once in a month and only for begetting children." So that is also tapasya. They do not follow, people do not follow any tapasya at the present moment. But human life is meant for tapasya, regulative principles. Even in ordinary life.... Just like you are driving your car, you are going to some urgent business, and you saw the red light. You have to stop. You cannot say, "I have to leave by this time. I must go." No. You must. That is tapasya. So tapasya means to follow the regulative principles strictly by the higher order and that is human life. And animal life means you can do whatever you like. They keep to the right, keep to the left, it doesn't matter. But their offense is not taken because they are animals. But a human being, if he does not follow the regulative principles, it is sinful. He'll be punished. The same principle. Just like when there is red light, if you do not stop, you'll be punished. But a cat and dog, if he transgresses, "Never mind red light, I shall go," he's not punished. So tapasya is meant for the human being. He must do it if he wants at all progress of life. That is essential. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In terms of diet, dietary regulations, eating... *Prabhupāda: That is also tapasya. That is also tapasya. Just like we are prohibiting meat*-eating. So in your country this is little troublesome. From the very beginning of his life he is, I mean to say, habituated to eat meat. The mother purchases powdered meat and mix with... I have seen it. And by force. So he has been trained up eating meat, and I say, "Don't eat meat." So therefore that is troublesome. And if he's serious, he must accept the order. That is tapasya. Tapasya means in diet, in practice, in behavior, in dealing, and so on, so on. Everything there is tapasya. That is all described. Mental tapasya, bodily tapasya, and what is called? Word? Just like vāco-vegam, this is tapasya. You cannot talk nonsense. You want to talk something nonsense, but according to... So they don't talk nonsense. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvar... If you talk, you must talk about Kṛṣṇa. That is tapasya. "Śāstra has ordered me not to talk loosely anything, only talk of Kṛṣṇa." So if he does that, that is tapasya. Tapasya in the matter of words. Tapasya in connection with body. Tapasya in connection with mind. Vāco-vegaṁ krodha-vegam. One has become angry and he wants to express it by beating or something doing very..., but tapasya will restrict him. "No, don't do it." "I want to kill you." Tapasya will restrict. Vāco-vegaṁ krodha-vegaṁ manasa-vegam udara-vegam. "I am sexually inclined, but I cannot do it. This is not the time." That is tapasya. I am restricted. In this way, tapasya in every way, bodily, mental, words, practice, dealing. So these have to be learned. That is called tapasya. And that is human life. Tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1]. If you want to make progress in spiritual life and you are human life, human being, you must act according to the sastric injunctions. That is called tapasya. Brahma, before creation he had to undergo tapasya. Is it not stated? Yes. So tapasya is essential. You cannot avoid. Yes. Hari-śauri: This is a listing of the three tapasyas in the Gītā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Read it. Hari-śauri: "The austerity of the body consists in this: worship of the Supreme Lord, the brāhmaṇas, the spiritual master, and superiors like the father and mother. Cleanliness, simplicity, celibacy, and nonviolence are also austerities of the body." Shall I do the purport? Prabhupāda: Words? Hari-śauri: Purport? Prabhupāda: No. Tapasya, words, not there? Hari-śauri: Oh. "Austerity of speech consists in speaking truthfully and beneficially and in avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the *Vedas* regularly." Prabhupāda: Tapasya. Hari-śauri: *"And serenity, simplicity, gravity, self*-control and purity of thought are the austerities of the mind." "This threefold austerity, practiced by men whose aim is not to benefit themselves materially, but to please the Supreme, is of the nature of goodness." *Prabhupāda: That's it. The aim is to please the Supreme through the spiritual master. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo **. This is the idea. Now, who is teaching this tapasya? Where is the school, college? Smoke: this is tapasya. And they are smoking before teacher. No offense. What you'll expect from such student? Animal civilization. This is not civilization. No tapasya, no brahmacārī. Tapo divyaṁ [SB 5.5.1]. And tapasya begins from brahmacārī. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena [SB 6.1.13], to control. Brahmacārī guru-gṛhe vasan dantaḥ. How to control senses, that is the beginning of life. Not ABCD learning and maybe your character may be less than an animal's, and you have got a degree of the university. You become a learned man. No. That is not accepted. Even from moral instruction, who is educated? That is described by Canakya Pandit. *Here is paṇḍita. That is learned man. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi [Bg. 5.18]. He is learned man. Not this degree holder. A degree holder, he has no tapasya, he has no character and his knowledge is called māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. Although he has learned so many things, but māyā has taken away his knowledge. He's a rascal. He's animal. This is Vedic civilization. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question number twelve. "What is the role of rituals in religion? Are they to be discouraged as it is being advocated by some reformists or are they to be encouraged? If so, in what form? What is the role of rituals in religion?" *Prabhupāda: Ritual is a practice based on tapasya. Unless one undergoes the ritualistic ceremony, he remains unclean. But in this age, because it is practically impossible to induce people to take all these ritualistic processes, therefore it is recommended that "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra." That is special advantage of this age, that by constant chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra he automatically becomes purified. That is recommendation given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The beginning is cleansing the heart, because we are impure on account of dirty things within our heart accumulated life after life in the animalistic way of life. So everything, advancement of spiritual life, culture, tapasya means cleansing the heart. So this process, chanting the mahā-mantra, the first installment of benefit is cleansing the heart. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. And when the heart is cleansed, then he becomes eligible for being free from the clutches of māyā or the materialistic way of life. When he understands that he is not this body, he's spirit soul, his business is different, and he understands that "I am engaged only in these bodily comforts of life, it is not at all essential because it will change. Today I am in American body, I have got so many duties as American. Tomorrow I may be American dog body. So immediately my duty changes. So that is not my real business. My real business is how to elevate myself as spirit soul to the spiritual world, back to home, back to Godhead." Then he changes his... Ceto... Bhava... Then this materialistic activity is stopped. He is no more interested, that "This is simply waste of time." That is knowledge, that "I am simply acting for the benefit and comfort of the body. This is simply waste of time. I must act spiritually." That is called ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleansing the heart. He is wrongly working on the basis of bodily concept of life. That illusion is over simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. This is the first installment, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, and bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. Then he is in the process to stop the blazing fire of material existence. Then vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Then the ocean of transcendental bliss increases. Ānandāmbudhi-vardanaṁ sarvātmānam snapanaṁ. Wholesale blissful life. Paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. All glories to the chanting of Kṛṣṇa saṅkīrtana. Then the other processes... That is described in the Śikṣāṣṭaka. So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's gift, that kevalaya bhaktya. All the practices of austerities, penances, and mystic yoga, and so on, so on. There are so many things. Everything will be totally achieved simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Bhakti. *Just like when there is sunrise, immediately the all*-pervading fog disappears. Now this Kali-yuga, by bhakti-yoga, especially by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, one can be fully reformed and come to spiritual platform, and that is success of life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The next question kind of relates a little bit in the same direction. Question thirteen. "There are various saṁskāras prescribed in the life of a Hindu right from his birth to death." Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Many of these saṁskāras are not being observed today. Should they be revived?" *Prabhupāda: Saṁskāra... The real aim is to bring the rascal to the platform of knowledge. That is called saṁskāra. Janmana jāyate śūdra. By birth everyone is the same, śūdras, means without any knowledge. But the saṁskāra means śūdra, rascal, without any knowledge of spiritual life, to gradually bring him to the spiritual platform. That is called saṁskāra. And saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. That is essential. The human life is the opportunity for understanding what he is and what is the aim of his life. The aim of life is back to home, back to Godhead. We are part and parcel of God. Somehow or other we are in this material existence. So aim is again come to our spiritual life, spiritual existence, where there is no struggle for existence, blissful, happy life. Because actually we want happiness, blissful life. That is not possible in the material world. That is in the spiritual world. That is the aim. So every human being should be given chance. That is real education. That is called saṁskāra. So these saṁskāra, there are dāsa*-vidha-saṁskāraḥ... So in this age it is very difficult, but if one chants Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra without any offense, being trained up by the spiritual master, all the saṁskāras automatically become done and he comes to his original spiritual position, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I am spirit soul. The Kṛṣṇa is Param Brahman, and I am Brahman." As Arjuna said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. Kṛṣṇa is also Brahman, I am also Brahman. But He's Supreme Brahman, I am minute Brahman. So my business is to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is teachings of Lord Caitanya, jīvera 'svarūpa' haya (sic:) nitya kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108]. So if he engages himself in his original spiritual business, to act as the servant of Kṛṣṇa, then all reformation is done. So that advantage is given in this age: kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ param... [SB 12.3.51]. Reformatory process is meant for purifying him so he becomes mukta-saṅgaḥ. Mukta-saṅgaḥ means liberated from all this bad association of material existence. And he becomes eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. So this is the special advantage. The question is "Whether they should be revived?" They should be revived to the lowest necessity, but all of them cannot be revived in this age. But people should be induced to take to chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa maha-mantra. Then all reformation will automatically become manifest and he will come to spiritual platform, brahma-bhūtaḥ, the realization of Brahman. Then prasannātmā, he'll be happy. There is no lamentation, there is no undesirable hankering. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. He sees everyone on the spiritual platform. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. In this way he comes to the platform of devotional service, and then his life becomes successful. Is that question answered or not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Just one question I have. You said that the saṁskāras should be revived to the lowest? *Prabhupāda: The minumum possible way. Just like to make him a brāhmaṇa. So to become a brāhmaṇa these four things are essential: no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. This must be there. You cannot avoid wholesale. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cannot avoid? Prabhupāda: Wholesale. You must avoid at least sinful activities. *You cannot become a devotee unless you are completely sinless. So to become completely sinless you have to begin with these four prohibitory injunctions, or avoid sinful activities like illicit sex, meat*-eating, smoking, intoxication and gambling. Then you'll be gradually completely sinless. One side, to practice things, and another side, to engage yourself in devotional service. To engage oneself devotional service under the order of spiritual master and the śāstra means to remain on the transcendental platform. Transcendental platform means there is no sinful activity. It is above. Sinful.... Pious and sinful activities are there so long you are on the material platform. Good and bad. Piety and sinful. But when you are on the transcendental platform, then you are automatically without sin. *Sin, life of vice and life of piety, they are within this material world. But when one is spiritually engaged, he is above the spiritual plane. Sa guṇan samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate. So one side, voluntarily accepting these prohibitory process.... You can keep it open. (the door) Hari-śauri: Tell him to leave the door open. *Prabhupāda: So the whole thing is that if you chant hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra and give up these sinful activities, automatically you become reformed, come to the spiritual platform, and in this way your life will become successful. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can we go on to the next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question fourteen. "It is said that the karma*-kāṇḍa in the Vedas has almost gone out of use, except for a few rites which remain in vogue for marriage, śraddhās, etc. Is it advisable to revive the karma-kāṇḍa with its stress on the performance of various yajñas?" *Prabhupāda: So that is not possible in this... Taking consideration of the time, circumstances, it is not possible. There are different kinds of karma*-kāṇḍīya-yajña. It is expensive also and there is no expert brāhmaṇa to guide how to perform this yajña. So Kali-yuga, it is not possible to perform yajñas. Kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuṁ tretāyāṁ yajato makhaiḥ [SB 12.3.52]. In the Treta-yuga yajñas were possible. Dvāpare paricaryāyāṁ kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt, that in this age of Kali-yuga the real yajña is hari-kīrtana. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. Therefore those who are intelligent, having good brain substance, they take to this yajña, saṅkīrtana-yajña. And practically we are experiencing, simply by saṅkīrtana-yajña, even the lowest person in the sinful activities, he is becoming purified. So karma-kāṇḍa is, to revive them in this age is not possible. Neither jñāna-kanda. That is also not possible. People are so fool and rascal that it is impossible. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said... He has condemned karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa. Even it is properly done. Karma-kāṇḍa, by performing ritualistic ceremonies of karma-kāṇḍa, you can go to the heavenly planet. But what is the benefit there? You can enjoy there materialistic way of life in higher standard. That's all. You can live for a very, very long duration of period. But that does not mean that you become immortal. The demigods, they are called amara. Amara means they have got very long duration of life. Does not mean he is immortal. So by karma-kāṇḍa you can elevate yourself to the higher planetary system. Even it is properly done... And now it is not possible to do it properly. And even it is properly done, that is condemned. It is not required. Similarly jñāna-kāṇḍa. Even it is properly done... You can merge yourself into the Brahman effulgence. But that is also not safe because in the śāstra we see that arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Even one merges oneself into the impersonal Brahman, he again falls down. Patanty adhaḥ. We have seen practical, in India many sannyāsīs, they elevate themselves by jñāna-kāṇḍa, but because they cannot stay, they again come to the karma-kāṇḍa, philanthropy activities and hospitals and schools. That is their fall down. So either in karma-kāṇḍa or jñāna-kāṇḍa you cannot achieve the real purpose of life. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has said, karma-kāṇḍa jñāna-kāṇḍa sakali visera bandha. Either you accept karma-kāṇḍa or jñāna-kanda, they're different pots of poison. Amṛta boliya jeba khai. If by mistake you take poison, death is inevitable. Similarly, by karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa nobody can derive any actual benefit. By upasana-kāṇḍa, that is the... The Vedas, Vedic ritualistic ceremony means there are three kāṇḍas: karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa, and upāsana-kāṇḍa. So upāsana-kāṇḍa, there are recommendation of many, worship of many demigods. But the best upāsana is Viṣṇūpāsana. Viṣṇor arādhanaṁ sarveṣāṁ. Viṣṇor arādhanaṁ param. Oṁ tad viṣṇuṁ paramaṁ padam. There are different types of upāsana recommendation, but the viṣṇor arādhanam, worshiping Lord Viṣṇu, that is the Supreme. That is Supreme. So gradually, there is elevation to karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa, upāsana-kāṇḍa, but in the Kali-yuga all these things are not possible to revive. Best directly give him the best upāsana-kāṇḍa, Viṣṇūpāsana, bhakti, everything will be automatically achieved by bhakti-mārga. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, fifteen. "Hinduism has been defined as a way of life." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is the way. That, I have already described it. It is not a sectarianism like Muslimism, Christianism or "Thisism..." Hinduism also now one of them. Actually, it is a way of life, varṇāśrama*-dharma, how to become elevated to the spiritual platform. So that begins by the varṇāśrama-dharma, to select persons according to his capacity to different varṇas. Some of them selected, trained as brāhmaṇas. Some of them trained as kṣatriya, some of them as vaiśya, some of them as, remain... Those who cannot take any training, they are śūdras. So in the ways (indistinct) there must be social division not by birth, but by education. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. That we have lost. The so-called Hinduism they have lost. And because they did not follow real varṇāśrama-dharma, therefore India, so many renegades, Muslim became... Once they become Muslim, there was no reformation. But according to Vedic principle, even one is fallen, he can be raised to the highest standard. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. One may... Saṁskārād bhaved dvija. And Sanātana Gosvāmī says that *As by chemical process the bell metal can be turned into gold by adding with the mercury.... This is a chemical process. If you can add in the bell metal proportionately mercury, then it will turn into gold. Here is the process given in the śāstra. If you are able to do it, you can do it, turn gold some of these bell metals. So the example is given that as the bell metal, base metal, can be turned into gold by chemical process, similarly, by dīkṣā*-vidhānena, by proper initiation by the bona fide spiritual master, everyone can be turned into dvija, twice-born. Dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇam. Nṛṇam means all men. It is not there is no discrimination, that only the Hindus, only the Indians, or only the so-called brāhmaṇas can be turned. Everyone can be turned. That is the injunction. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to do that, trying everyone to become a bona fide brāhmaṇa. Without becoming a brāhmaṇa you cannot become Vaiṣṇava. So this reformatory process is recommended in the śāstras. What is the question? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hinduism has been defined as a way of life. In... *Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the way of life, that by reformatory process recommended in the śāstras one should be elevated to the position of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśyas, and śūdra. Śudra means one who cannot take any reformation. But one who can take up the reformation, he can be situated as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya. This is not by birth, but by education, by training. That is recommended for the all human society. Not for the Hindus or... Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says pāpa*-yoni? Pāpa-yoni. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās. They are also taken as pāpa-yoni. And what to speak of the śūdras and caṇḍālas? They must be pāpa-yoni. Only the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, they are taken as highly elevated. But nowadays, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In this age you cannot distinguish who is brāhmaṇa, who is kṣatriya, who is a vaiśya, who is a śūdra. It is accepted that everyone is a śūdra because there is no reformation. So according to Pāñcarātriki-vidhi everyone should be given the chance of becoming a Vaiṣṇava, a dvija. And that is recommendation in the Hari-bhakti-vilāsa, that by the proper initiation process everyone can be brought into the platform of dvija, twice-born, and then he becomes... After initiation, his second birth is there. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Then he's allowed to read the scripture. Veda-pathād bhaved vipraḥ. He becomes vipra. Then when he really comes to the knowledge of Brahman, his relationship with Brahman, and acts accordingly, then he is brāhmaṇa. And when he is perfectly situated in the eternal relationship with God, Viṣṇu, then he becomes a Vaiṣṇava. That is perfection of life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is this practical in the present context? *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are doing it. See. If anyone has eyes to see they can see how we are accepting the pāpa*-yoni, so-called pāpa-yoni to become the topmost Vaiṣṇava, that is possible. Unless it is possible how it is being done all over the world? There is no consideration. The process is so effective that it is being done. They are taking it as a proselytization. But it is not proselytizing. Proselytization is superflous. If one is Hindu you make him a Christian, and you change the name. But what is the use of changing the name if you do not reform him about his character? Simply changing the name from Hindu to Muslim or Muslim to Christian, that does not make him better... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This next question is rather interesting. Question sixteen. "Is it not possible for all sections of Hindus, be they Advaitans, Dvaitans, or viṣiṣṭādvaitans, to come together instead of remaining isolated as warring factions?" *Prabhupāda: Yes. Dvaita and advaita. This is the process of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, to bring all the dvaitas and advaitas in one platform. To understand that he is essentially servant of God. The Advaitas, they are wrongly thinking that he is God himself. That is wrong, or not the proper way of thinking. How you can become God? God is ṣaḍ*-aiśvarya-pūrṇam, full with six opulences, all-powerful, all-strenght, all-beauty, all opulent. So this is artificial, to think to become God. And... This is Advaita. And Dvaitas, they think that one is different from God, God is separate from the living entity. But actually, from the Bhagavad-gītā we understand that God is always the Supreme and the living entities, they are subordinate. And in the Vedas also it is said, nityo nityānaṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Both of them are living entities, but God is the chief. The difference between the two, that God maintains other living entities. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That is a fact. We are maintained and God is the maintainer. We are predominated, we are not independent, and God is predominator. But because the predominated living entities, they are part and parcel of God, therefore in quality they are one. This is acintya-bhedābheda, one and different. The living entity is one in the sense because he is part and parcel of God. So if God is gold, the living entity is also gold. That is one in quality. But god is great and we are minute, small. In that way we are different. Now, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has enunciated acintya-bhedābheda, inconceivable, simultaneously one and different. That is real philosophy. So on this philosophy everyone can come if they are reasonable. If they remain unreasonably stuck up in their own concocted philosophy, then it is difficult. Otherwise this is the fact, that the living entity is eternally part and parcel of God. Sanātana. What is that verse? Find out. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ jīva-loke sanātana [Bg. 15.7]. Fifteenth chapter. Hari-śauri: "The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind." *Prabhupāda: So if he's eternal fragmental parts, how he can become one with the whole? The part is never equal to the whole. That is axiomatic truth. This is wrong conception, to become like God. The Māyāvādīs, they are trying to become God. That is impossible. They... Let them remain godly. Godly means servant of God. That will make him perfection, his life perfect. Vaiṣṇava philosophy is to remain, to act as servant of God. That is perfect. And if the servant tries to become like the master, that is artificial. Although in the spiritual world there is no difference between the master and the servant... Just like the boys, Kṛṣṇa's cowherd boy friends, they do not know Kṛṣṇa is God. They are playing with Him on equal terms. When Kṛṣṇa is defeated in the play He has to take His friend on His shoulder and he rides on the shoulder. So there is no such distinction who is God and who is not God. So that is spiritual conception. But the difference is always there. God and the part and parcel. Kṛta*-puṇya-puñjāḥ. We can attain that position after many, many lives' pious activities. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. *These boys are playing with Kṛṣṇa. Who is Kṛṣṇa? He is the essence of Brahma*-sukha, Param Brahman. So these boys are playing with Param Brahman. Itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena. And for the devotees He's the supreme master, and for the ordinary man He is ordinary child. But these other children who are playing, they have got this position kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. "After many, many births' pious activities, now I have got this position, playing with Kṛṣṇa on equal terms." So this is the conception of devotional service, that when you go to the Goloka Vṛndāvana you cannot distinguish.... But they have got unflinching love for Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana life. The cows, the calves, the trees, the flowers, the water, the elderly men, Nanda Mahārāja and Yaśodāmayī, everyone is attached, central point is Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is loving Kṛṣṇa. And there is no such knowledge that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality.... Sometimes they see Kṛṣṇa's wonderful activities and they talk on: "Kṛṣṇa may be some demigod. He has come here." But they could never recognize that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Kṛṣṇa passed some dangerous position, so many demons were coming, mother Yaṣodā was chanting some mantras to protect Kṛṣṇa that "He may not be put into some calamity." They never understood that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality. But their natural love for Kṛṣṇa so intense. Therefore Vṛndāvana life is so exalted. Arādha... What is called? Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa-tanāya tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that first of all Kṛṣṇa, Vrajendra-nandana, the son of Nanada Mahārāja, He is arādhya. Tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. And His dhāma, His abode, Vṛndāvana, is also worshipable. They are equal. Vṛndāvana-dhāma and Kṛṣṇa, they are equal. So these are higher standard of understanding. Unless one is devotee, purified, he cannot understand that to become one with God is not the sublime idea. In Vṛndāvana one who wants to become the father or mother of God, to control God, that these Māyāvādīs cannot understand, Advaitavādīs. This is to be understood by the pure devotion, devotees. What is the benefit to become equal with God? Just become.... equal.... Other Vaiṣṇava philosophies they could not explain our relationship with God. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained the higher relationship with God. That is called vatsalya-rasa and madhurya-rasa. Especially madhurya-rasa. Anarpita carīṁ cirāt karuṇayāvatirṇaḥ kalau samarpayitum unnatojvala-rasāṁ sva bhakti śriyam. Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave information of the madhurya-rasa, that our relationship can be with Kṛṣṇa in conjugal love. So unless one comes to the platform of devotional service, one cannot understand. But for general understanding this philosophy of acintya-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different.... That is explained in this verse. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. The living entities are part and parcel of God. So if God is gold, then living entities are also gold. This is equality in quality. But God is great, and we are always subordinate. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. We are protected, we are maintained, we are predominated. That is our position. We cannot attain the position of predominator. That is not possible. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, question 17. "What is the future of Hinduism?" *Prabhupāda: There is no future. It is already gone. (laughter) The future is already there. And what do you want more future? A man was beaten with shoes, and again he said that "He has threatened me, to insult me." So if he is beaten with shoes, then what insult remains to be done again? So Hinduism now finished. Now take to the process of Kṛṣṇa's order, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Teach this teaching of Bhagavad-gītā to the whole world. Not only Hinduism; *Christianism, and Muslimism, everything's gone. And even it is not gone, Kṛṣṇa says, " Give up all this nonsense." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. "Give up Hinduism, Muslimism, Christianism. Simply surrender unto Me." That is to be preached all over the world, and that is being effective. So if the Hindus are interested in Bhagavad-gītā, which was spoken in the Hindustan, in the land of Hindus, they must seriously take to this instruction of Kṛṣṇa and combine together and preach all over the world and make others benefited and themselves benefited. That is the only way. There is no other second way. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Next question. Question number 18. "As the world is coming to be divided into just two classes, atheist and theist, is it not advisable for all religions to come together, and what positive steps can be taken in this direction?" *Prabhupāda: That is already taken, already explained. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The atheist class and theist class, they will exist always. This is material world. Even at home the father is atheist, Hiraṇyakaśipu, and the son is theist. So even at home the father and the son different. So that atheist class and theist class men will always exist in family, in community, in nation, in the... as you go on. But the theist class should take to the proposition of the Bhagavad*-gītā and take shelter at his lotus feet, giving up so-called religious principles. That is oneness. Religion without conception of God, conception of God is humbug, bogus. Religion means to accept the order of God. So if you have no conception of God, if you do not know who is God, so there is no question of accepting His order. It is stated in the Vedic literature dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Find out this verse in the Sixth Canto. [break] ...Yamarāja's instruction. Devotee: Yes. (pause) Hari-śauri: "Translation: Real religious principles are enacted by..." Prabhupāda: Ha! Real. Hari-śauri: "Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great ṛṣis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras, ordinary human beings, Vidyādharas and Cāraṇas." Prabhupāda: Hm. [break] Prabhupāda: So, therefore... Next verse. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Vaiyāsakir vayam. Hari-śauri: Dvādaśaite vijānīmo... Prabhupāda: Dvādaśaite. *Hari-śauri: Dharmaṁ bhāgavataṁ bhaṭāḥ, guhyaṁ viśuddhaṁ durbodhaṁ yaṁ jñātvāmṛtam aśnute. "Lord Brahma, Bhagavān Nārada, Lord Śiva, the four Kumaras, Lord Kapila (the son of Devahūti), Svayambhuva Manu, Prahlāda Mahārāja, Janaka Mahārāja, Grandfather Bhīṣma, Bali Mahārāja, Śukadeva Gosvāmī and I myself know the real religious principle. My dear servants, this transcendental religious principle, which is known as bhagavat*-dharma or surrender unto the Supreme Lord..." *Prabhupāda: So these people, these mahājanas, they know what is the principles of religion. Religion means bhagavata*-dharma, to understand God and our relationship with God. That is religion. You may call it Hindu religion or Muslim religion or Christian religion, but real religion is that which teaches how to love God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. If by following the religious system, you come to the platform of loving God, then your religious system is perfect. Otherwise it is a simply waste of time, bogus religion, without conception of God. So unless one understands what is God and what He says, and we have to abide by that order, then we are religious and there is religion and there is God, there is everything complete. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is off the record, but one may ask if someone like Christ or Moses was not mentioned amongst the mahājanas, present some sort of religion... *Prabhupāda: No, mahājana there is in Christian messiahs. There is mahājana. And later on, after Christ, there was so many other. Saint Matthew, Saint Thomas, like that. Mahājana is mentioned there. How can you say there is no mahājana? Mahājana means who is strictly following the original religion. That is called mahājana. Or who know the things as they are. They are called mahājana. And that means paramparā system. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is learning Bhagavad*-gītā directly from Kṛṣṇa. He's mahājana. So you learn from Arjuna. And after hearing Bhagavad-gītā, as Arjuna acted, as Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa, you follow that. Then mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Then you are following the mahājana. You are on the real path. Just like we are. Here it is said, mahājana, Svāyambhu. Svāyambhu means Brahmā, Lord Brahmā. So our, this sampradāya, Gauḍīya sampradāya, is Brahma-sampradāya. And Svāyambhu, Nārada. Nārada is also in the brahma-sampradāya. And Śambhu, Lord Śiva, he is also mahājana. He has got his sampradāya, Rudra-sampradāya. And similarly, Śrī-sampradāya. So all these sampradāya we must follow. Sampradāya vihina ye mantras te niṣphala mataḥ. If you do not belong to sampradāya, mahājana, then you are useless. You cannot concoct any religious system. So either you be Christian or Hindu it doesn't matter. You have to follow the mahājana. If a Christian says, "I don't believe in St. Thomas," what kind of Christian he is? Similarly, it doesn't matter who is a mahā... But real mahājana is he who is strictly following the principle as enunciated by God. That is religious system. Otherwise there is no religion. There is no question of religion. It is simply concoction. Mano-dharmi, mental speculator. Mental speculation is not religion. Religion is the order of Kṛṣṇa and one who follows that order, he is religious. That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, question nineteen. Prahupada: Now this question is clear? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So far I can understand, you're saying that there's no need to label that there's one religion in the world. Rather, everyone can... *Prabhupāda: One religion is there already, that how to love God. This is one religion. Will the Christian say, "No. We don't want to love God"? Will the Christians say? Will the Mohammedans say, "No, no. We don't want to love God"? So religion means how to love God, and any religion which teaches how to love God, that is perfect. It doesn't matter whether he's Christian or Muslim or Hindu. It doesn't matter. You have to be educated to take your degree. It doesn't matter from which college you take degree. Similarly, religion means you have to learn how to love God. If you have no love for God, it is all useless. That is not religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Sākṣād, Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." You cannot surrender until you love. You are surrendered to me, I am also an Indian. Because you have love for me, therefore there is surrender. If I say that "You die," you'll die. Why? Because you love me. So when there will be surrender? Unless one loves God. Unless that platform is not there, that "I love you, I can sacrifice everything for you." That is on the the basic principle of love. Therefore that religion is perfect which teaches the followers how to love God. This is religious principle. So let everyone come to this platform, how to love God. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are teaching nothing, but training them how to love God, how they can sacrifice everything for God. So that is religion. Otherwise a bogus waste of time, simply following the ritualistic ceremonies. That is not religion. That is superfluous. *You are very good, you are following your religious principle very strictly, adherently. That's all right. But what about your love of God? "Oh, that I do not know." So śāstra says, śrama eva hi... It is simply waste of time, and simply laboring. That's all. If you have not learned to love God, then what is the meaning of your religion? Then, when you're actually on the platform of love of God, you understand your relationship with God, that "I am part and parcel of God. Not only I am part and parcel of God, this dog is also part and parcel of.... Every living entity." Then you'll extend love for animal also. If you actually love God, then your love for insect also is there because you understand that "This insect, it has got a different body only, but he is also part and parcel, or my brother." Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then you cannot maintain slaughterhouse. If you maintain slaughterhouse and disobey the order of Christ, thou shall not kill, and you proclaim yourself as Christian or Hindu or this.... That is not religion. Then śrama eva hi kevalam. Your going to the temple and church and everything is simply waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Because you do not understand God. You have no love for God. That is going on, all over the world. They're stamping under some sect, but there is no real religion. So in order to bring them all in one platform, they have to accept the principles of Bhagavad*-gītā, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If you do not accept in the beginning Kṛṣṇa, that He is the supreme, then you try to understand that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is education. There is somebody supreme. So if I say, because I am Hindu, I am Indian, that "Kṛṣṇa is the supreme," you may say, "Then why Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is Indian." "No. He is God. Just like the sun rises first in India, then comes to Europe. But that does not mean the sun is different. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, although appeared in India, now He has come to Western countries, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You try to understand whether Kṛṣṇa is not God or God. But He is God. There is no doubt about it. If you have got intelligence to understand what is God, then try to understand. But He is God undoubtedly. So take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and abide by the order of Kṛṣṇa. Then everyone comes on the same platform, the religious platform, one religion, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question 19, this is... Prabhupāda: Now, this is clear or not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: Anyone? We are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, our business is to surrender to Him. And Kṛṣṇa personally advises that "You surrender unto Me. I shall give you all protection." This is religion. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes we meet people in our preaching activities. They may, of course, claim to be very devout Christian or Muslim, but at the same time they will blaspheme Kṛṣṇa. Is it possible that such persons can actually be associates of God? *Prabhupāda: No, no. It is just like in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there are so many Christians, so many Jews, so many Mohammedan, and Hindus. Everyone is there. It is a question of understanding. So in the beginning if... But if he's serious to understand what is God, then he will accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord. If he knows what is God, then he'll understand, "Here is God." If he remains in darkness, he does not know what is God, then how he'll understand Kṛṣṇa? He'll understand Kṛṣṇa as one of us. That's all. But if he knows what is God then he'll understand. Yes, here is God, Just like if a person knows what is gold, then anywhere gold, he'll understand, "Here is gold." It does not mean only gold, in certain shop only gold is available. But if he knows what is God, what is meaning of God, that he will find in Kṛṣṇa in fullness. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. The śāstra says how He is Bhagavān, what is Bhagavān. You should understand and see from the activities of Kṛṣṇa whether He is not Bhagavān. It requires brain to understand. I say, "Here is God." Now it is up to you. If you know what is God, then test it, and then you'll accept God. If you do not know how to test it, then you may refuse. That is another thing. You'll accept iron as gold. That is your ignorance. You do not know what is gold. But if you actually know what is gold, you will accept Kṛṣṇa as God, there is no doubt about it. So this is the only platform, Bhagavad*-gītā. Everyone come and take to Kṛṣṇa and understand God and learn how to love Him and your life is perfect. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if the Christians are saying that "This is the only platform, the Bible," and the Muslims are saying, "This is the only platform, Koran," and the community of followers of Bhagavad... *Prabhupāda: But we have to see by the result. The result is... Only platform, that only platform, that is decided... Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. That is actually religion. How? Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. If one has learned how to love God. If there is no love of God, then what is the use of claiming that this is the only platform? Where is the sign of love of Godhead? That is to be seen. Simply if you say... Everyone will say, "This, my, this property is the best, or my understanding is..." But there must be practical proof. The practical proof*-say how to love God, what is the process of loving God? If you do not know your relationship with God and other's relationship with God, then how you know God? That is lacking. Nobody can give clear conception of God. Can the Christians give? Then where is love of God? If you have no understanding of what is God, where is the question of love? Love is not fictitious. You cannot love air. You love a person, a beautiful person, a beautiful woman. If you say, "I love air. I love the sky..." Where there is question of love?There must be a person. So who is that person we want to love? But they have no personal conception of God, neither they can describe the personal beauty, capacity, strength, ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇaḥ. There is no such description. So they have got the conception of God, but actually they do not know what is God. But religion means you must know God and love Him. That is religion. That is first class religion. Is that clear or not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: When there is question of love, then you must know what is God, then love. But if you do not know who is God, then how do you love Him? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Are these actually the tangible signs by which one can judge what is real religion? Prabhupāda: Yes. Real religion is how to love God. And love cannot be done without knowing the person whom you love. That is the criterion, test. So if you have no conception, God, His personality, then how you'll love? Where is the question of love? Love is something tangible. It is not fictitious. So we accept, Kṛṣṇa conscious people, Kṛṣṇa is God, and we are worshiping Kṛṣṇa. And we are making progress. Just see our behavior and other persons behavior and judge. Hm? What do you think? Kulādri: We had one priest who came. He was discussing with Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. He did not know what God looked like, he never gave anything, never talked about God, but he said he loved God. Prabhupāda: Then? What kind of love it is? Kulādri: Nor did he say his people ever came to church. He said, "At best they come once a week." He said that's all that is necessary. *Prabhupāda: Well, love does not mean that you come once in a week at my house. Love means you come to my house, give me some presentation, and take something from me. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuṅkte bhojayate caiva ṣaḍ*-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam. Love means if you love somebody, then you must give him something, you must accept something from him. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti. You must disclose your mind to him and he should disclose his mind to you. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati, and bhuṅkte bhojayate. If you love somebody, you give him something eatable and whatever eatable he offers you accept. These six kinds of exchange makes love. But if you do not know the person, the boy or the girl, then where is the question of love? Love begins... If you love some girl, if you love some boy, then you give something, some presentation, and he gives you some presentation. That develops love. You give something to eat and whatever he gives you to eat, you eat. You disclose your mind, "My dear such and such, I love you. This is my ambition." He dis... These are the exchange of love. So if there is no persons to person meeting, where is the question of love? That is not love. If I love somebody and weekly I visit that house, "This is the house," that's all. Where is the exchange of love? Love means there is exchange. If you love somebody, if you have not given anything to that somebody, neither you have taken something from him, where is the love? Is that love? Means imperfect knowledge. You love... The conclusion is religion means to love God, and to love God means you must know who is God. There cannot be any other alternative. You must know the person who is God. Then you exchange. That we are teaching. We are asking our disciples to rise early in the morning, offer maṅgala ārati, then bhoga ārati. Are we so fools, rascals, that we are wasting time in worshiping a doll like that? Sometimes they think like that. But that is not the fact. You know definitely, "Here is Kṛṣṇa. He is God, and we must love Him like this." That is the superexcellence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We do everything definitely on positive platform. Is that clear? Huh? Or anyone, any question? Pradyumna: Then... You said we must know God before we can love Him. So that means devotional service is preceded by knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes, that is the process in the Bhagavad*-gītā. There are 18 chapters. The whole 18 chapters is the education how to know God. And when Arjuna completely in awareness he accepted, "Kṛṣṇa, You are paraṁ brahma, paraṁ dhāma [Bg. 10.12]," that is understanding. Then surrender, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Unless you know God, how you'll surrender? If some third class man comes, "You surrender unto me." Will you do that? Why shall I surrender to him? You must know, "Now, here is God. I must surrender." The 18th Chapter is described to know God, and then Kṛṣṇa proposes, "Surrender unto Me." Then Arjuna did it, "Yes." So without knowing, how you can surrender? Know God. Then you surrender. Otherwise how, blindly, you can surrender? That is not possible. So this is the science how to know God, Bhagavad-gītā. The preliminary. If you want to know more, then read Bhāgavatam. And if you are in intense love with God, then next, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, how the intensification can be more intensified. That is Caitanya-caritāmṛta. So Bhagavad-gītā is the preliminary book to understand God and surrender. And from the surrendering point, further progress, that is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And when the love is intense, to make it more intensified, that is Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, mad after God. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. "I find everything vacant without Kṛṣṇa." That is the supreme ecstasy. So these things cannot happen (chuckles) without love. If you love somebody, then if he's not there you find everything vacant. Otherwise why? There are so many things. "How," people will say, "you are seeing vacant? Everything is filled up." That is another stage, transcendental platform. Lover and beloved, they can understand. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. That is the supreme stage of love. Is that clear or not? Pradyumna: There's just one more thing. What's the minimum knowledge one must have to... *Prabhupāda: God is great. That's all. God is great. Kṛṣṇa proved that He's great. Therefore He's God. Everyone says, "God is great." Allah akbar, Muslims say. God is great. It is translated, "God is great." And Hindu says, paraṁ brahma. So God is great. So Kṛṣṇa proved that He is all*-great. Therefore He is God. Kṛṣṇa, when He was present, He proved it that He is the great. Therefore He's God. If you accept God is great, and if you find somebody, he is great in everything, then he's God. How can I deny it? At least, you can see Kṛṣṇa great by His Bhagavad-gītā. It is still going on. Five thousand years passed, still Bhagavad-gītā is accepted as the greatest book of knowledge all over the world. Even among the Christians, among the Muslims, those who are really learned, they take it, "Yes." That is greatness of Kṛṣṇa, the knowledge. Who can give such knowledge? That is the proof that He is God. Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya viryasya yasasaḥ... Jñāna, knowledge. Where is such knowledge throughout the whole world? Everything, every line is sublime knowledge. If one studies scrutinizingly Bhagavad-gītā, you find Kṛṣṇa is Supreme Lord. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Question nineteen. "Do you envisage or envision a different role for Hinduism in the Western countries where the influence of other great religions has been felt for centuries? *Prabhupāda: No. There is no different role. God is one. God cannot be duplicate. As it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "There is no more superior authority than Me." That is God. Now people is to understand that Kṛṣṇa is God. There is no different role. The role is the same. Five thousand years Kṛṣṇa said that "I am the supreme authority. There is no more superior authority than Me." Still He is so. So we are simply attempting to introduce Kṛṣṇa. Nobody attempted. Although five thousand years past, nobody attempted to introduce the supreme authority Kṛṣṇa. We are just trying to introduce following the orders of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He, five hundred years appeared. He is Kṛṣṇa. He wanted that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be spread all over the world. *Kṛṣṇa is not for India. He is for everyone because He is God. He claims that "I am the seed*-giving father for all living entities." Not only the human society, but also other living entities like the aquatics, the insects, the plants, and the animals, all living entities. He says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. Everything is there, but this cult of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or Bhagavad-gītā as it is, was not preached properly. Everyone interpreted Bhagavad-gītā in his own way to satisfy his own whims. We are just trying for the first time to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and it is being effective. So it is not a different role. It is the actual role. Nobody tried for it. Therefore Kṛṣṇa was unknown, but we are trying for this for the few years. But because it is reality, it is being accepted. It is being accepted. No attempt was made that. So it is not a new role. The role is already there: to preach. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's vision. He says especially to Indian people, *Indians are meant to do this business for para*-upakāra because all over the world they are unaware of Kṛṣṇa. So anyone who is actually Indian, he should attempt to broadcast the message of Bhagavad-gītā and Kṛṣṇa. That is order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. *This is paropakāra. They are suffering without any knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. Give them this knowledge. That is para*-upakāra, doing welfare activities to others. So that attempt is now being made, and people actually accepting. So it not a new role. The role is already there. Caitanya Mahāprabhu five hundred years told, years before He told it. But the so many swamis and yogis, they came here, they never introduced Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now it is being done and people are accepting, naturally. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So if everyone joins, either Indian, non-Indian, in this movement there will be one religion and there will be peace. Peace will prevail. This is the only way. This is the way of śānti, understand Kṛṣṇa, that He is the supreme enjoyer, He is the supreme proprietor, and He is the supreme friend for everyone. Accept Kṛṣṇa as your friend, you'll be happy. This is the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This next question is very closely related to the last question. Question twenty. "What is your view regarding proselytization or preaching? If you are..." *Prabhupāda: It is not proselytization. Proselytization has no meaning. To bring one to the real understanding. Kṛṣṇa says that mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. All living entities are His part and parcel. He claims, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. In all forms of life, as many living entities are there, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ, I am the seed-giving father. So the natural position is that every living entity, not only human being, but also animals, plants, everyone... So why not Indian, American, or Czechoslavakian, everyone is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa? So it not the process of proselytizing to convince the idea. It is actually bringing them to their real position, that they're all part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. It is not artificial proselytization that "You are Christian, now you are Hindu." Or "You are Hindu, now you are Christian." "You are a sweeper, now you are harijana." It is not like that. It is actually bringing him to his own position, part and parcel of God. It is not... Proselytization will not stand. When one comes to the real understanding of his position, then that will continue. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that. Bringing one to the original position. He's in diseased condition, he's thinking otherwise than servant of Kṛṣṇa. Now this movement is trying to bring everyone to the position that he is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. It is not a rubberstamp proselytization that "You are Hindu, now you are Christian." Or "You are Christian, now are Hindu." So if he does not know what is his position by simply stamping that he is Hindu or Muslim or Christian, what benefit he will derive? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same ignorance. Prabhupāda: If you keep him in the ignorant platform, then what is the benefit of making a Hindu Muslim or Muslim Hindu? That was going on, "holy war," between Christians and the Muslims. Because both of them will die. (chuckles) And they are engaged in holy war. War, but "holy war." "Holy impiety." Artificial change of "ism" will not help. One must know the philosophy of life. One must know what is God. One must learn how to love God. That is real life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is one more question, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Question 21. "Are changes visible in Hinduism in its doctrinal content, mode of individual and collective worship as a result of Hinduism's contact with the West?" *Prabhupāda: Yes, they are worshiping... This is... First of all, you must forget that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not Hinduism. It is Vaiṣṇavism. Vaiṣṇava means Viṣṇu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and one who loves Viṣṇu or loves God, he is Vaiṣṇava. So Hinduism is not like that. Present conception of Hinduism, they have got so many demigods. Demigods are there in the Vedas, but demigod worshipers, they are all materialistic persons. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā that kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajanti anya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. Those who are worshiper of demigods, they are lusty. Kāmuka. And the kāmuka platform is material world, lusty. Everyone is trying to enjoy sense gratification. So demigod worship is for sense gratification. If you worship Durga, then you pray, "Mother Durga, give me name, fame, wealth, good wife, and so on, so on." Dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpavati-bhāryaṁ dehi. Simply demanding for sense gratification. So that is not love of Godhead. That is to select one agent of God and exact from him as much as you can for your sense gratification. That is not recommended in the Vedic religion. Vedic religion, although there are demigods, but the ultimate is oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. Those who are sūraya, actually advanced, they see to the Viṣṇu paramaṁ padam. Viṣṇor aradhanaṁ param. The worship of Viṣṇu is the supreme worship. So actually everyone should be worshiper of Viṣṇu. And that is Vaiṣṇavism. So Vaiṣṇavism means for everyone or sanātana dharma. That I have already explained. The human.... The living entity is sanātana. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ jīva-loke sanātana [Bg. 15.7]. He is sanātana. God is sanātana. The exchange between God and the living entity is called sanātana-dharma or Vaiṣṇavism. So we are teaching that. We are not teaching Hinduism, Muslimism, Christianism. We are teaching how to love God. That's all. There is no question of proselytization. It is the natural. We are, by nature we are lover of God. Just like father and son. The love is already there. It cannot be extinguished. The father and son may be separated for many, many years, but when they come together the affection immediately revives. So we are teaching that, that we have got eternal relationship with God and revive it. We are embarassed by establishing artificial relationship with my family, country, and society, and so-called religions. These are all artificial. Real relationship, that "God is great and I am His servant," that is real religion. So we are teaching that thing. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the teaching is the same in India as it is in the Western countries. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is being proved. Otherwise how they are worshiping Kṛṣṇa all over the world? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This question here is "In doctrinal content and mode of individual and collective worship..." Is that to say that in your preaching in the Western countries and your preaching in India, you haven't attempted... In the Western countries where there is so many mlecchas, outcastes, so to speak. *Prabhupāda: That is accepted by Kṛṣṇa. Even one is mleccha. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. So there is no question. That is artificial. One is mleccha or one is brāhmaṇa, but that is artificial. That is skin. But within the skin of the mleccha or the brāhmaṇa the same spirit soul is there. Therefore those who are paṇḍita, those who are learned, One who is actually learned, he sees the same spirit soul within the brāhmaṇa, within the mleccha, within the cat. (end) *Garden Conversation-*-June 28, 1976, New Vrindaban Prabhupāda: So read something. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Chapter Sixteen, text number seventeen. *Translation: "Self*-complacent and always impudent, deluded by wealth and false prestige, they sometimes perform sacrifices in name only, without following any rules or regulations." *Prabhupāda: Modern yogic society. "Transcendental Meditation." Whatever nonsense they like, they do. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated that yogis should sit down in a secluded, sacred place, and they are seeking after America's big, big cities. Hmm? They find out yogic class in America's big, big cities, hotels. This is their program. The prescription is that one should sit down in a solitary sacred place, alone, and these rascals are holding class. All smokers, drunkard, woman-hunters, (laughs) they are yogis. Hmm? What do you think? Is it all right? This is going on. And they are accepted, "Yogi this," "Yogi that." This is going on. In India they cannot find out because people are not so fool as yet that in big, big cities, in a big, big hotel, "yoga practice." India, although so fallen, they will not accept. They will at once detect, "Here is a rascal." But here, their dhana-māna, their qualification... They have got money. So whatever they accept, that is all right, because they have got money. No other qualification required. They have money; *they can pay. That's all. You read that, dhana*-māna... *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ātma*-sambhāvitāḥ stabdhā dhana-māna-madānvitāḥ. Prabhupāda: What are the word meanings? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Ātma*-sambhāvitāḥ-self-complacent." Prabhupāda: Whatever they are thinking, it is all right, that's all. They are not going to hear any authority. Whatever they think, that is final. That's all. Why? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Stabdhāḥ*-impudent." Prabhupāda: No obedience to authority. Impudent. And? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Dhana*-māna. *Prabhupāda: Dhana*-māna. Because they have got money, whatever they think, that's all right. And their gurus also will say, "Yes, it is all right." If the guru says that "It is not all right," then nobody will come to him. He has to say "It is all right," because he's also after money and woman. That's all. He does not come here to teach something. This is going on. Therefore they come in so many numbers. They have now taken a good field. And in America you go, you say any nonsense, and they'll accept. And pay money for that. From the very beginning it is going on. Now, because it is going on like that, we are also counted amongst them. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." This is the difficulty. They are also taking this movement, "Oh, these boys are chanting and dancing. This is also another sentiment, another edition of hippie movement." There is a, I think, Gresham's theory: "Bad money drives away good money." You know this? This is a economic theory. "Bad money drives away good money." Because nowadays bad money, that paper money, is going on, that gold coins no more in existence. Formerly we have seen gold coins in our childhood. You have not seen any. We have seen. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Collector's items. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Collector's items. Prabhupāda: Collector's? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only someone may have one just as a collection. You can't get them. *Prabhupāda: Formerly in the currency, when you go to take some exchange, it was the etiquette of the teller to ask you, "What you want, silver money, gold money or paper money?" It was their duty. If you say "I want gold money," they will pay in gold money. Not only it is written in the paper, "I promise to pay," but the promise was kept. If he wants, "Give me payment in gold," they will pay. And now, to keep gold, hoarding gold, is illegal. So you cannot ask. This is going on, legalized cheating. You have to accept this paper money. That's all. Don't ask for gold. And there is no honesty at all. I can take paper money for my convenience sake, but how you can force me to take paper money? That is not honesty. So dishonesty begins from the government. You cannot keep gold. If you have kept gold, there will be searching, and if it is found that you have gold, you'll be punished. In India it is now being done. There is no freedom even at your home, in your private life. Formerly, any common man could keep gold according to his desire. There was no such thing. Sometimes he would hide it even within the ground, because there was no bank. At least in India this was the practice. If you have got some gold, you keep it somewhere confidential within the ground so that it may not be stolen. So everyone should have right to keep his money as he likes. Why government should interfere? Therefore you see the Bhāgavatam, rājanya*-dasyu-dharmaḥ.(?) The government men will be like rogues and thieves. By law they will take away. It is now going on in India. I think here it is also? You cannot keep gold. Why I cannot keep gold? If I have secured gold, I can keep it. I want gold. You write, "I promise to pay," so there must be gold coins. I must have. So many difficulties will come in the kingdom of māyā gradually. It is already come. The eight items... What are those items? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Twelfth Canto? Prabhupāda: Huh? Duration of life, mercifulness... *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prāyeṇālpāyuṣaḥ sabhya kalāv asmin yuge janāḥ mandāḥ sumanda*-matayo... [SB 1.1.10]. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not. Rādhāvallabha: Symptoms of the age of Kali? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Duration of life is decreased. If one is twenty years old, he will be a grand old man. Prabhupāda: Hm. That is coming. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bodily strength decreases. Then smṛti, intelligence... Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Memory is decreasing. *Prabhupāda: Dayā, dharma, religious principles*-everything will be reduced. And the government men, instead of giving you protection, they will act like thieves and rogues. You cannot say anything. Very, very precarious condition, all freedom lost. In Russia, all freedom lost. They have no freedom. The professor giving that testimonial, and "Don't publish it." They are appreciating this book, but they cannot say "That is good book." Just see what kind of freedom is there. A nice book, I appreciate; I cannot give in writing. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The American government would say, "How can you say that there's no freedom when the First Amendment of the United States Constitution says that there is freedom of religion? One can make any religion he likes and follow." *Prabhupāda: Now they can amend. By simply by writing by the government men, that's all, it becomes a law. There is no question of its validity, but because it is spoken by government, therefore the... In other words, the government men should be so honest and so elevated that actually their words should be law. But this is democracy. Any nonsense can take vote and go to the government, and then whatever he will say, that will be law. Who cares that he's a rascal? Somehow or other he has gotten vote and he's in a position. Who is considering that? And in the Vedic age only the first*-class brāhmaṇas and sages, they would... Manu-saṁhitā. That is law, not that any rascal goes into the legislative assembly and passes some law. Of course, whatever government says, that is law, but what is the position of the government now? And similarly everything. A yogi is actually worshipable. But what are these yogis, rascals? So these are asuric. And it is said... What is that? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Dhana*-māna-madānvitāḥ. *Prabhupāda: Dhana means money. So if you have got money, then everyone will respect you. Personally you may be less than a dog, but because you have got money, people will respect you. Is it not? (laughs) In England I was guest in John Lennon's house. He has taken a photograph, naked. And he's a big man. He gives opinion to the newspaper reporter. People go there to take his opinion about some serious subject, and he speaks, and the man is so shameless that he is standing naked, and he's important man*-because he has got money. Especially in the Western countries this is very prominent. If you have got money, then you have got everything. Therefore they are after money only, that "If some way or other, if I get money, then I get everything. I get respect, I get honor. I get everything. Bring money somehow or other." This is the attempt. Therefore there is so much hard struggle. From early in the morning, four o'clock, they are going to the office to get money. To get more money, more money, that is the Western civilization. Now in India they have also learned. And our philosophy is "Don't try to get money." Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta. "You should simply engage your life for advancing your Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So who will hear us? We say, "There is no need of working so hard for money." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. This kind of working hard is done by the hogs and dogs, so why a human being should work so hard simply to get the necessities of life? [break] ...and dogs, they are getting necessities of life in that way. [break] This association, this meeting, this talking, is meant for the human body; *it is not for the cats and dogs. This is human civilization. Naimiṣāraṇya meeting going on, all the big, big learned brāhmaṇas, sages, they are talking how to do welfare activities to the human society. What is this civilization? Simply money, money, money, money, money. And as soon as you get money, then you begin all nonsense, illicit sex, meat*-eating, drinking, gambling. What you will do with the money? You do not know how to spend it. Hm. Dhana-māna-madānvitāḥ. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Thinking themselves all in all, not caring for any authority or scripture, the demoniac sometimes perform so*-called religious or sacrificial rites. And since they do not believe in authority, they are very impudent. This is due to illusion caused by accumulating some wealth and false prestige. Sometimes such demons take up the role of preacher, mislead the people, and become known as religious reformers or as incarnations of God. They make a show of performing sacrifices and they worship the demigods, or manufacture their own God. Common men advertise them as God and worship them, and by the foolish they are considered advanced in the principles of religion, or in the principles of spiritual knowledge. They take the dress of the renounced order of life and engage in all nonsense in that dress. Actually there are so many restrictions for one who has renounced this world. The demons, however, do not care for such restrictions. They think that whatever path one can create is one's own path; *there is no such thing as a standard path one has to follow. The word avidhi*-pūrvakam, meaning 'disregard for the rules and regulations,' is especially stressed here. These things are always due to ignorance and illusion." Next verse? Text 18. *Translation: "Bewildered by false ego, strength, pride, lust and anger, the demon becomes envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is situated in his own body and in the bodies of others, and blasphemes against the real religion." Purport? "A demoniac person, being always against God's supremacy, does not like to believe in the scriptures. He is envious of both the scriptures and of the existence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is caused by his so*-called prestige and his accumulation of wealth and strength. He does not know that the present life is a preparation for the next life. Not knowing this, he is actually envious of his own self, as well as of others. He commits violence on others' bodies and on his own. He does not care for the supreme control of the Personality of Godhead because he has no knowledge. Being envious of the scriptures and the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he puts forward false arguments against the existence of God and refutes the scriptural authority. He thinks himself independent and powerful in every action. He thinks that since no one can equal him in strength, power or in wealth, he can act in any way and no one can stop him. If he has an enemy who might check the advancement of his sensual activities, he makes plans to cut him down by his own power." Śrīla Prabhupāda, in this purport you mention that not knowing that this life is a preparation for the next life, that one actually becomes envious of his own self. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If he's going to become a dog next life and if he does not take precaution, then he is not envying himself? In this life you are prime minister, and next life, you are preparing to become a dog, so what is the use of becoming prime minister? You could not save yourself. Nature's law will go on. You may become prime minister or any minister, but the law will act. If you have infected some disease, so the disease will develop. It doesn't matter whether you are prime minister or this minister. So these rascals say they do not know it. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Find out this verse. This low-grade birth, high-grade birth, why it is happening? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species." *Prabhupāda: We are practically seeing it, that material nature... Some infection, this is also material nature, and if you are infected with some contaminous disease, you must suffer. They practically see it. The nature will work. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-sthaḥ. As soon as we are in this material world... I am living entity, spirit soul, and because I am in this material world, I have accepted this material body under the regulation of the material laws. Otherwise why there are so many varieties of life? Here is a tree. It is standing here. We are human beings; we are also here. But when there is cold blast, scorching heat, we can go into the room, but he has to be standing here for thousands of years. Why this distinction? It cannot move even an inch. It is also living entity. Why he is punished in that way? And when there will be snowfall, pinching cold, he cannot go. But a small ant, it can go from here to there. Moving and not moving, the two kinds of living entities... Some of them can move; *some of them cannot move, sthāvara. Just like grass. We are trampling over with our legs. It cannot protest. Why these differences of grades of life? This is described here. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi bhuṅkte [Bg. 13.22]. What is that? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Enjoys. Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān. *Prabhupāda: Hm. Because this prakṛti, nature, is made of three modes of material nature, sattva*-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Just like we are trying to associate with sattva-guṇa-no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling. So others, they are not anxious for these thing. They will say, "What is the wrong there? You can do that." But because you are infecting that tamo-guṇa, you'll have to suffer. You'll have to become a tree; you have to become a dog. How you can stop it? Where is your science? Why the scientists dying? Why they cannot invent some means, a tablet, that "At the time of my death, push this tablet in my belly. I'll not die"? Why they are unable to do so? Who can answer this? Why the rascal scientists do not manufacture such things that there'll be no death for the scientists? Hm? What do you say? Anyone for scientists can plead? (laughter) Devotee (1): They want to do it, Prabhupāda, but they cannot. *Prabhupāda: That is complacence. What is called? "Yes, in future we shall do." That's all. Then at present you cannot do. Then you are imperfect. Why you are declaring yourself as scientist? Scientist means who is in full knowledge. That is scientist. And if you are not in full knowledge, how you are scientist? "Big, big scientist, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." Rascals say that chemical, combination of chemical, makes life. So we challenge that you begin from an egg. Everyone sees the egg*-some white substance, some yellow substance, covered with some shells. So just manufacture it and give it to the incubator, and let the chicken come. Why you take the egg from another living chicken? What is the answer? You rascal, you make one small egg. We can see there are some white substance, yellow substance, so you combine some chemicals, white and yellow, and cover it with celluloid shell and put it under the incubator. You get. Why the rascals cannot do it? And still, the rascals will say that life can be..., is combination of chemicals. Give this challenge to these rascals, that "Life is... If it is combination of chemicals, why don't you do it, the simple thing?" Yes? Janāhlāda: I was reading the other day where they have certain kinds of scientists who do nothing but make tastes out of chemicals. They say they can duplicate any taste, and they are very highly paid now for making synthetic foods taste like all other kinds of real foods. Prabhupāda: And they'll not produce food. Janāhlāda: They are not producing the food, no. Prabhupāda: In this way they are getting high salary, and we have to pay tax for that, income tax. This is going on. That means roguism. We have got money. Government will take it away and pay these rascals, scientific research. There are so many foundations in your country. If you ask them, "Give us some money for Kṛṣṇa conscious," "No, no, no, we don't pay for anything. We pay to the scientists." They will say. Rādhāvallabha: Now they are going to Mars. Prabhupāda: Hm? Rādhāvallabha: Now they are going to Mars planet. They have two ships heading for Mars, and they want one to land on July 4th. Prabhupāda: It has already started? Rādhāvallabha: Yes. Now they have given up on the moon. Now it is Mars. Prabhupāda: And the fools are paying for that. Rādhāvallabha: Yes, millions of dollars. Prabhupāda: Just see. One attempt has already failed; again they are making attempt and spending like any... Rādhāvallabha: Isn't it impossible for them to reach Mars because it is a hellish planet? Prabhupāda: Who says it is hellish planet? Rādhāvallabha: In *Bhāgavatam*. It is described as inauspicious in Third Canto in the story of Varāha. Prabhupāda: Maybe. So first of all let them go. They cannot go. According to our calculation, Vedic calculation, the moon is above sun planet, and the Mars is above moon planet. Rādhāvallabha: Oh. Then they would have to go past the sun. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rādhāvallabha: Then they would have to go past the sun. Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, according to their calculation, 93,000,000's miles... So the moon is above 1,600,000 miles. And again 1,600,000. So another three million miles above the sun, it becomes sixteen million miles. So if they cannot go to the sun planet, how they can go to the Mars? All bogus. Ṛṣi Kumāra: I saw one scientist on television, and he was saying on Mars there are mountains that are very, very big, much bigger than the mountains on this planet, and there's beautiful landscape, and they want to start a tourist industry, taking people back and forth. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They want to start a tourist industry on Mars, taking people back and forth. Prabhupāda: But there is no life. Hari-śauri: They already sold the tickets to the moon. Now they're going to go on to Mars. Rādhāvallabha: They say there is less advanced life, like plants. Prabhupāda: Why not more advanced life? Rādhāvallabha: According to their speculation, they say that the atmosphere is... Prabhupāda: So that means speculation. *Rādhāvallabha: Well they have a system, so*-called system, by using light. *Prabhupāda: No, no, we find there are two kinds of living entities, sthāvara and jaṅgama. One kind of living entity, they cannot move, and one kind of living entity, they move. So just like here there is grass, there are trees and there are... We are also. There are many animals who can move. So why, if there are plants who are not moving, why not the other moving animals? This is commonsense reason. Everywhere we see two kinds of animals, moving and not moving. If the not*-moving is there, why not the moving? What is the wrong there? This is our first question. Rādhāvallabha: They say that under certain conditions, just like in... Prabhupāda: No, don't, don't find such conditions. That is a rascaldom. We don't find such con... Anywhere you go, there are two kinds of living entities, moving and not moving. Janāhlāda: One of the ways they tell whether there are advanced forms of life is if they can see vegetation growing on different planets in waves like the seasons, and if they can't see that in an orderly pattern, then they conclude that there is no life, no advanced life. Prabhupāda: Why there is no vegetation? They say there is vegetation. Rādhāvallabha: They say, lichens. Lichens are... Prabhupāda: That means not yet certain. Rādhāvallabha: No, they admit they're not certain. Prabhupāda: This is all... They're misleading. Hari-śauri: According to that report we read the other day, they had good information now that the atmosphere was water and ice, like that. So they were expecting to find some signs of life, and they were going to land a spaceship in a canyon which was just below the equator, just at the mouth of the canyon. And it's four miles deep, and fifty thousand years ago it was filled with water, so they are expecting to find fossils there now. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They've never been there, though. Speculation. Rādhāvallabha: They never take into any consideration there can be another form of life other than that which they know. Prabhupāda: No, they are speculating. But why people are victimized by this speculation? That is the... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's the amazing thing. Prabhupāda: They have already failed in one speculation. They went to moon planet with some speculation. That has failed. Why they are given chance, another speculation? Rādhāvallabha: Everyone believes that they went. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rādhāvallabha: Everyone believes that they went. Prabhupāda: They went, but what is the benefit? What for they went? Rādhāvallabha: For scientific exploration. They consider that very noble. Prabhupāda: Scientific exploration at the expense of these taxpayer? Rādhāvallabha: They consider it a very noble cause to increase knowledge. *Prabhupāda: That... The same story, that some frogs were there, and children was throwing stone. Then the frogs appealed, "Sir, why you are throwing stone upon us?" "No, we are playing." "So what is play for you, it is death to us." So these rascals are playing, and we have to pay heavy tax for that. This is going on. We are playing, making some scientific research, and who will pay for that? You. You work hard in the factory and pay tax. This is civilization. "You pay tax, and we spend it as we like." Frivolity(?). This is going on. This is the government of Kali*-yuga. What can you do? Devotee (2): "In God We Trust." Prabhupāda: "What is play to you is death to us." And "Never mind. You die. We play." They have already spent so much money, moon exploration. And that has stopped now, no benefit. They brought some sand and some rock, satisfied. Again the same thing with Mars. But we can say from our poor knowledge that as they have failed in the moon planet, they will fail also in the Mars. Take it down. Note now. Do you know this is all bluff? Rādhāvallabha: In Los Angeles papers they quoted you saying that, that they didn't go to the moon. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhāvallabha: They quoted you as saying this in Los Angeles, in a newspaper. Also your Monday*-Tuesday example, Sunday-Monday. They put that in the newspaper. Prabhupāda: Nobody can answer that. The common sense. Can any one of you answer why Sunday first and Monday next? You are one of the scientists. Why don't you say? It is commonsense question, "Why Sunday first and next...?" All over the world. In the human society, everywhere you go, they will say Sunday first, Monday second. In India Ravivāra. Ravi. Ravi means sun. And Somavāra. Somavāra means Monday. The planetary system is so arranged, first of all sun, then moon. Then Mars, then Saturn, Saturday. Saturn is last. Even Svarūpa Dāmodara has not answered. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He cannot meet the challenge. Prabhupāda: Any scientist here who can answer why Sunday first and Monday second? *Janāhlāda: I'm not a scientist, but I always thought that the ancients thought that the sun was first because without telescopes or without light*-measuring instruments it was bigger and it looked closer. *Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Sunday is first, and Monday*-moon is beyond sun. If they accept that nobody can approach sun, then how they can approach moon? In calculation, eighteen thousand miles per hour, and if the moon is situated 95,000,000 miles, then how they can go in four days? These are my questions. They have not been answered. It takes at least seven months. And they went in four days, and the man's mother... His photograph was there. She said, "At last my son has gone there." You have seen that photograph? I have seen it. Mother was satisfied. This is going on. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Next verse? Prabhupāda: Hm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:: Text 19. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān saṁsāreṣu narādhamān... [Bg. 16.19]. Prabhupāda: This is their result. These rascals, atheist class, they'll suffer in this way. That is described now. Hm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān āsurīṣv eva yoniṣu. "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life." Prabhupāda: This is the result. What is their explanation of the varieties of life? Rādhāvallabha: They say, due to evolution over many millions of years... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The strongest, somehow they survive, and other, weaker species, they become extinct. Rādhāvallabha: They say the origin of species is genetic. Devotee (3): They say "Somehow or other..." Then... Prabhupāda: Is that science? "Somehow or other." If I say, "Somehow or other, you'll become a dog," (laughter) what is the wrong there? If things are taking place somehow or other, so I say somehow or other you'll become a dog. Our explanation is complete. They accept somehow or other is a means. So somehow or other, you are going to be dog. How can you deny it? If that is your position, that things are taking place somehow or other, so how can you deny, somehow or other you'll become a dog? Hm? Rādhāvallabha: They will say that "We have seen that these other things have taken place..." *Prabhupāda: But then it is not that "somehow or other." This argument cannot be. Nothing happens somehow or other. We don't believe that. Here is the cause. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy andha*-yoni... What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda: Hm, what is meaning? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Tān*-those; *aham*-I; *dviṣataḥ*-envious; *krūrān*-mischievous; *saṁsāreṣu*-into the ocean of material existence; *narādhamān*-the lowest of mankind; *kṣipāmi*-put; *ajasram*-innumerable; *aśubhān*-inauspicious; *āsurīṣu*-demoniac; *eva*-certainly; *yoniṣu*-in the wombs." *Prabhupāda: There are so many varieties of life, so we have to accept one of them by Kṛṣṇa's desire, Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Kṛṣṇa says, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. He is situated in everyone's heart. He's observing everything. So He orders that "Give him a body like this." Who can check it? Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. This body is a machine. The machine is given by material nature. Today you may be a very big man, and by your activities, asuric activities, you are so condemned that you have to accept a lower-grade life, a fox, sly fox. "You are very sly to spend others' money in moon excursion. Now you become a fox." So who can check it? Here it is stated, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān [Bg. 16.19]. So you cannot check it. You are not so great scientist. Then how do you say, "There is no God"? You cannot check God's law, so how you can say that there is no God? You can say at your home, "I don't care for government." And when government arrests you and puts you in difficulty, how can you check it? Is it possible? Then why do you submit that? When the police comes and arrests you, you can say, "No, no, I don't care for any officer." You cannot say. Is this not punishment? This tree is standing here for hundreds of years, and it will go on standing for thousands of years. Is it not punishment? So what the atheist will answer, this? Kṛṣṇa says, "I'll put him into this condition." What the atheist will answer? Rādhāvallabha: He'll say there is no experience of anyone taking a next birth. Prabhupāda: No experience? You are not diseased? Do you want disease? Still, you say you have no experience? When you are put into some disease and go to hospital and the doctor surgically operates your body, so you have no experience? You did not want that. Your fertile brain, when it is operated with hammer, so you did not experience? How do you say that you have no experience? You are suffering every moment. But you don't want suffering. How do you say that there is no experience? That is foolishness. They are suffering every moment, adhyātmika, adhibhautika, adhidaivika. Still, you say you have no experience? Means shameless. In Indian language we call vehāyā. He has got repeated experience; still, he'll say, "No, I don't care for it." Rādhāvallabha: How does he have experience of rebirth? Prabhupāda: Apart from that... That you have to take. Because you are put into difficulty which you do not want, this is your experience. So the intelligent man's question will be that "I did not want this, but who has put me into this condition?" That is intelligent. Hari-śauri: Well, they say that the suffering, there's no divine cause for that. That's just a material cause. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you did not want; *you have it*-against your will. This is your experience. There is no difference. Either you say material cause or spiritual cause, but you are suffering what you did not want. That is the point. You are suffering. And you did not want it. Yathā duḥkham ayatnataḥ. Nobody wants distress, but it comes. How it comes? Yathā duḥkham ayatnataḥ, Prahlāda Mahārāja... Ayatnataḥ means without any endeavoring. Who is trying that "Let there be fire in my house"? But it takes. Nobody wants that "There may be fire in my house," but there is fire. Therefore you have to arrange for fire brigade. You are expecting always some danger. Therefore you make so many precautions, because you know that although you do not want mishappening, it will come. Nobody endeavors for mishappenings, but you know there is some superior force who'll enforce mishappening. And they are unable to counteract. Just like a scientist knows that he'll die, but he's so expert scientist that he cannot counteract. He knows that he'll die. He's talking all nonsense while living, but he does not make any arrangement that he'll not die. That he is unable. They are making arrangement, going to the Mars planet at the expense of taxpayer, so if we request these rascal scientists that "You discover something so that we will not die. Take any amount of money," will they able? Rādhāvallabha: They'll die while they are trying to find out. *Prabhupāda: Then? What is the use of this scientist? That "Take any amount. Here is my beloved son. My scientist, physician, you take any amount. Just give life to my son." Is it able? These are practical. False, bogus bluffing*-that is another thing. Rādhāvallabha: They get angry if we tell them that. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, means they are rascal. When there is argument between you and me, if one becomes angry, that means he's a rascal. That is the proof. He cannot reply anymore. He has become angry. That is his defeat. Upadeśo hi mūrkhāṇāṁ prakopāya na śāntaye. Mūrkha, a rascal is given good instruction, he'll be angry. So that is the proof that he's rascal. That is the proof. The example is given, payaḥ*-pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam. Just like if you give milk, very nourishing food, to a human being, he'll get strength, but if you give to a snake, it will increase poison. So that is the proof that here is a snake. So payaḥ-pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam. If you give milk to a human child he'll grow healthy, and the same milk you give to a serpent child, it will grow poison. One day he'll: "Ohnn!" He'll ready to bite you. You have given milk, it has increased poison, and it will show his fangs, hood. That is asura. So therefore they become snakes, scorpion, so low-grade life. Snake life is so degraded that at once you see a snake, immediately every one of us will be ready to kill it. Everyone, without any mercy. Nobody will say, "No, no, let this go." So he is put into that life that he cannot come in the light. As soon as he comes in the vision of somebody, everyone is ready to kill. And nobody is sorry. Nobody is sorry. Prahlāda Mahārāja said that. Modeta sādhur api vṛścika-sarpa-hatyā [SB 7.9.14]. Even one is saintly person, he'll be satisfied if a snake is killed. Saintly person doesn't want that anyone should be killed, but if a snake is killed, he's happy: "Oh, you have done right." Modeta sādhur api vṛścika-sarpa-hatyā. So Prahlāda Mahārāja said that "My father is killed; nobody is unhappy. (laughter) Nobody is unhappy. But he was just like a snake and scorpion. Now You be satisfied. There is no cause of becoming angry. Everyone is satisfied." That was Prahlāda Mahārāja's prayer. Find out this verse. Where is Seventh Canto? *Rādhāvallabha: Seventh Canto? [break] (discussion as devotees try-and fail*-to find line) Prabhupāda: There is no "modeta"? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, it might be the second or fourth line. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is fourth line. Give it to me. Where is spectacle? Oh, you have gone so far. Here it is. (laughter) Modeta sādhur api vṛścika*-sarpa-hatyā. Rādhāvallabha: It appeared, and you didn't even look. Remarkable. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "My Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, please, therefore, cease Your anger now that my father, the great demon Hiraṇyakaśipu, has been killed. Since even saintly persons take pleasure in the killing of a scorpion or snake, all the worlds have achieved great satisfaction because of the death of this demon. Now they are confident of their happiness, and they will always remember Your auspicious incarnation in order to be free from fear." Prabhupāda: Purport. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport. "The most important point in this verse is that although saintly persons never desire the killing of any living entity, they take pleasure in the killing of envious living entities like snakes and scorpions. Hiraṇyakaśipu was killed because he was worse than a snake or a scorpion, and therefore everyone was happy." *Prabhupāda: Snake or scorpion... Of course, sometimes snakes, they eat their own children. They do it. But he has... He has tried to kill his own child. Modeta sādhur api vṛścika*-sarpa-hatyā. Very good example. Saintly persons, they also want killing living entities like snake. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Hiraṇyakaśipu was killed because he was worse than a snake or a scorpion, and therefore everyone was happy. Now there was no need for the Lord to be angry. The devotees can always remember the form of Nṛsiṁhadeva when they are in danger, and therefore the appearance of Nṛsiṁhadeva was not at all inauspicious. The Lord's appearance is always worshipable and auspicious for all sane persons and devotees." Prabhupāda: What is next verse? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "My Lord, who are never conquered by anyone, I am certainly not afraid of Your ferocious mouth and tongue, Your eyes bright like the sun, or Your frowning eyebrows. I do not fear Your sharp, pinching teeth, Your garland of intestines, Your mane soaked with blood, or Your high, wedgelike ears. Nor do I fear Your tumultuous roaring, which makes elephants flee to distant places, or Your nails, which are meant to kill Your enemies." *Prabhupāda: Nail is sufficient to kill an enemy like Hiraṇyakaśipu. No other weapon required. Simply tava kara*-kamala-vare nakham adbhuta-śṛṅgam. Wonderful nails. Tava kara-kamala-vare nakham adbhuta-śṛṅgam, dalita-hiraṇyakaśipu-tanu-bhṛṅgam. Just like we sometimes press some insects; immediately dies. So this Hiraṇyakaśipu, simply by nails pressed and finished. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like to go inside now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Devotees: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! *Prabhupāda: Give it to Kīrtanānanda. Tava kara*-kamala-vare nakham adbhuta-śṛṅgam. (kīrtana) (end) *Room Conversation-*-June 28, 1976, New Vrindaban Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (devotees offer obeisances) Thank you very much. Ṛṣi Kumāra: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Very good. Ṛṣi Kumāra: There's no enjoyment out there. It's all illusion. I think I tried everything. Prabhupāda: I was surprised that "How Ṛṣi Kumāra can fall down like this?" I had so confidence of this boy from the very beginning. He was so nice, so pure. And māyā is so strong. But could not do very well, māyā, very long. Thank Kṛṣṇa and... So stay with us. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. This is Kṛṣṇa's mercy, special mercy. So always be calm and chant and pray to Kṛṣṇa. Don't spoil this life. It is so valuable. Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. The sense gratification can be available in every life, cats and dogs also. Why should we sacrifice the greatest boon of human life? Hare Kṛṣṇa. So how are you? Rādhāvallabha: Very good, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What news? *Rādhāvallabha: Seven*-three was sent to the printer. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rādhāvallabha: Seventh Canto, Volume Three, has been sent to the printer. *Prabhupāda: Seven*-three? Oh. So our Ṛṣi Kumāra has come back. Ṛṣi Kumāra: I couldn't stay away any longer, because I was so bored with everything I was doing. All I could do was chant, and then I had to come back. There's nothing that satisfies except Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Best thing is to preach for some time. Go with the saṅkīrtana party. He's a good mṛdaṅga player also. His photograph is there. Devotee: From the very beginning. Prabhupāda: Fifth Avenue. Rādhāvallabha: Brahmānanda? Prabhupāda: Yes. He was Brahmānanda's assistant always. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Simply capture Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet. Māyā will not be able to... When you have come here? Ṛṣi Kumāra: We just got here his afternoon. Prabhupāda: "We" means along with...? Ṛṣi Kumāra: I came with Rādhāvallabha prabhu. Prabhupāda: Rādhāvallabha, just see, young boy, how he's working hard. You were doing also. You were doing so many things at a time. In Bombay you were doing herculean task, everywhere. He knows how to cook, how to give massage, how to... Yes. How to keep accounts, yes. Qualified. How to cook. Everything. So, may Kṛṣṇa save you. What can I say more? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This evening, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are arranging that you can see the film a little bit later in your room. Perhaps you would like to sit outside in the garden? Prabhupāda: Very nice. New York, how is everything going? Rādhāvallabha: Very nice. Prabhupāda: So we have to go outside? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (aside:) The chair is there? There are some people who have come, if you'd like to... Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll go. So you have given them some prasādam? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We arranged for that. Prabhupāda: Give them. They have come from distant place. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jaya Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Jaya. Lord Śiva became victimized by woman, what to speak of others? I am thinking of that boy also, Paramahaṁsa. He was a nice boy. Hari-śauri: Very much so. Prabhupāda: Do you know where is Paramahaṁsa now? Rādhāvallabha: He's in Denver, Colorado. He's not doing so good. Prabhupāda: Is it not possible to see him? Rādhāvallabha: Trivikrama Mahārāja went to see him, but he was too much in illusion. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Still, I want to see. Rādhāvallabha: You? Prabhupāda: He was very good boy. Rādhāvallabha: You want us to get the message to him that he should try to come to New York to see you? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rādhāvallabha: I'll try and get that message to him, to come to New York Ratha*-yātrā. Prabhupāda: He was very nice boy. Rādhāvallabha: Leads nice kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Māyā is so strong. Lord Śiva is not excused, what to speak of others. Rādhāvallabha: I have three sketches from the artists. Would you like to see them? This is for Eighth Canto, Volume One. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only life, to think of publication and distribution. Rādhāvallabha: This keeps me alive. If I didn't have this service, I think I would just die. Prabhupāda: Even in this weak... I am very weak nowadays. Still, I am working. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Nicely. Prabhupāda: I think I shall not be able to go for walks. This morning my heart was beating too much. Hari-śauri: It's very strenuous. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Best would be, then, to rest, perhaps up until at least until Washington and see, because in Washington there may be a very suitable situation. It's hard to walk on these roads also. They are very rough, and the altitude is high. Prabhupāda: Yes. That we will do. Yes. Rādhāvallabha: This is the story of King Indradyumna, when Agastya Muni cursed him to take birth as an elephant. Prabhupāda: Hm? Rādhāvallabha: When King Indradyumna was meditating and Agastya Muni came, and so he cursed him to take birth as an elephant. Prabhupāda: He became an elephant. Rādhāvallabha: Yes, Gajendra. So the artists want to know if it is okay to show him outside in front of a cottage like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Very good. Rādhāvallabha: This is a very rough sketch. This is when the demigods and demons were churning the ocean of milk with Vāsuki. So they want to make sure... So Lord Śiva will be standing outside the milk ocean. He won't be in the ocean. He'll be on the shore of the ocean, drinking the poison. Prabhupāda: Why? Rādhāvallabha: Sorry, it's not a very good picture. Here is the ocean. So Lord Śiva is on the shore, he's not in the ocean. He is on the shore, drinking the poison. They want to know if that's okay. Prabhupāda: Welcome. Rādhāvallabha: Okay. So then they want to know if it's okay to have Lord Śiva's bull with Lord Śiva. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where Lord Śiva can go, his bull can go. Rādhāvallabha: So then they want to know, is it all right to show the demons and the demigods standing right on the ocean? Prabhupāda: They were churning. That's all. Rādhāvallabha: So then they can actually stand right on the water. Prabhupāda: Churning was done in the water. Milk. Milk ocean. Rādhāvallabha: But they are not standing on the bottom. They are standing actually on the surface. Prabhupāda: Well, yes, half water. *Rādhāvallabha: Then a thousand*-armed Viṣṇu on top of Mandara Hill? They want to know if they should show Him on top of the mountain like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all... Rādhāvallabha: When we did Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, there were some arms that you wanted transparent. You just wanted the four main arms looking regular. So all the other arms should be transparent except for four? Prabhupāda: No, it is mentioned. It is mentioned. No. Rādhāvallabha: It just says "a thousand arms." So just paint like that? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Rādhāvallabha: And then they just want to know... One more question on this, that remnants of the poison from Lord Śiva went to the scorpions and snakes. Prabhupāda: Yes, you give this. Rādhāvallabha: So should they be in the ocean, or should they be on the shore with Lord Śiva? Prabhupāda: Yes, round about. Yes. Why he's there? It is all right. Give them here. Rādhāvallabha: Okay. So they are on the land. And then there is one more picture. When the goddess of fortune took birth from the milk ocean, they installed her on the throne, and the personified rivers came and personified clouds. So this would be Lord Brahmā, this would be the personified rivers and different personalities. So the ocean actually is not visible, just the actual installation area. Prabhupāda: That's nice. So? Rādhāvallabha: That's all that they want to know. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. When everything do with devotion, it will come out correct. Rādhāvallabha: Jaya. *Prabhupāda: We have got our testing tubes in Bhagavad*-gītā. Who was speaking that "If God is talking, what is use of spiritual master," yesterday? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that was a... Prabhupāda: "God will talk with anyone." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said, "God is talking with them from within." Prabhupāda: To any rascal. Does any rascal know that God is within? And He's witnessing all criminalities. Does he accept that? Then the yogis should not have illicit connection with their disciples. Do they believe God is...? It is simply business for earning money and getting woman. They have no other... Valueless. Therefore the government has said, "Fake." What is that? Actually that is a fact. So many rascals are coming, especially in America. Government, they are seeing, "What is this?" "Transcendental meditation and do whatever nonsense you like." Guru Maharajaji: "No use of books." Practically we are saving the whole world. What can be done? There are so many rascals. Let us do it sincerely. And if we also become victimized, then it will be stopped. Āpani ācari' jīve śikhāilā bhakti. Anyone who says God is speaking with, immediately take him as rascal. God is so cheap that He will talk with rascals. He wants to talk, but he cannot hear. Lord Jesus advised him, "Don't steal." Why does he steal? If God is not advising from within, then why he's going at night when everyone's asleep. God is not dictating that "Don't steal"? But he will not care for God's instruction. Then it is whose fault? If I say that "You don't do it" and still you do it, then? Hari-śauri: Rascal. *Prabhupāda: God is always prepared to talk with us in talking, but we don't... He talks through devotee, He talks through scripture*-who is caring for that? Sādhu-śāstra. God is talking through sādhu. [break] Sometimes it is sweet; sometimes it is sour. Why? Hari-śauri: Just the oranges. They have such a big variety. Prabhupāda: Next, the third part, how many pages? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The third part of Seventh Canto? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the last chapter in the... I'm not sure, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I have to inquire from him. The fifteenth chapter, though, is very long. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It should be long. So many long purports in the fifteenth chapter of the Seventh Canto. Hari-śauri: What's it about? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Nārada Muni... *Prabhupāda: About the foretelling of Bhāgavatam. The other day I recited so many verses. One of them, long hairs. Now see how practical. And now this is confirmation of the foretelling. Who knew five thousand years that people will keep long hairs and think of themselves as very beautiful? It is mentioned in Bhāgavata. How it is possible unless they can see actually what is going to happen? That is foretelling. And other description, they are also fact. Everything is there. And all this is five thousand, two thousand years' foretelling. The millions and millions of years' foretelling they are. What will the eighth Manu, and how they will..., ninth Manu, tenth Manu, up to fourteenth Manu. All the Manus together, forty*-three lakhs, thousand times. This is all the Manus' time. And the whole history is concluded that "Now I have mentioned past, present and future." It is not difficult. Just like tomorrow for my daily routine, what I shall do tomorrow from morning to evening, I can say. Is it very difficult for me? So it is a question of Brahmā's one day. So it can be said by them, not by us. These rascals think only in their standard of thinking: "I cannot live in such such, such condition; therefore there is no living entity." This is their idea. "I cannot live within the water; therefore there is no living entity. I cannot live within the fire; *therefore there is no living entity." Kūpa*-māṇḍūkya-nyāya, the same. "Whatever is in my experience, three feet water... How there can be unlimited?" Hari-śauri: I was reading a very good example like that. These men, they have this what's called divining, that they find water by means of a stick. They lay a stick on their hands like this, and they turn around in different directions, and the stick suddenly dips and points to the ground wherever there's water underground. And it's proven that it works. It's a very effective way of finding water. But no one knows how it works. So they put a suggestion during the Vietnam War to the Marines that they should use this method for finding out the underground tunnels of the Vietcong so that they could find them very easily. So they showed them by experiment that it's practical and it works, so they gave the rods to the physicists, and they checked them all out, and they couldn't figure out how they worked, so they said that because the physicists could not understand how it worked, therefore it was rejected. So they rejected the whole thing. So then the Marines in Vietnam, they heard about it, so they started to use the rods themselves, and in that way they were able to destroy many enemy hideouts. But officially the Marines had to reject it, because the scientists couldn't understand how it worked, so therefore they said that it was not good, it wasn't viable. Prabhupāda: The scientists' first proposal is, what they cannot understand, don't bring. That is not scientific. Whatever you say, that is not scientific. Whatever they say, that is scientific. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The word science comes from the Latin word which means "to know." But they simply have theories. They don't know. But we have actual knowledge. Hari-śauri: Their science means "don't know." (end) *Room Conversation After Film-*-June 28, 1976, New Vrindaban Ṛṣi Kumāra: It was very beautiful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ṛṣi Kumāra: Very nice film. Prabhupāda: Now make Indian Bengali edition. It will be very much appreciated in India. Yes. Is it not? Ṛṣi Kumāra: Yes, everything looks so pleasing. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will very much like this movement. Make some Hindi version, Bengali. Kīrtanānanda: I think it will be a great success in India. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kumbhamela we can show. You had been in Kumbhamela? Ṛṣi Kumāra: No, I haven't. Last time it was Kumbhamela, I was in Bombay. I had to do some business with books and stuff. Prabhupāda: So you begin this preaching work in India with this film. With few assistants go village to village. They'll appreciate very much. Here also they will appreciate. What do you think? School, college, university. They'll get an idea of new life. Kīrtanānanda: Yes. There are many colleges that give courses now in alternate life styles. Prabhupāda: Yes, this a... Kīrtanānanda: This film, they will love to show this in class. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the alternative life style. It is not that... This is the only. The other thing is fictitious. That's nice. Keep it. Any other film? No. Make similar films. And I was anxious about food production. That is there, already there. Kīrtanānanda: Could have been a little more. *Prabhupāda: No, it is... In nutshell everything is there. Our agriculture, our temple, and food growing, and everything is there. Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship. The sum and substance, everything... And you are living practically for the last... Eight years? Here? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have no difficulty. You are happy more and more. Immense land. You can come, hundreds. We can provide. There is food. There is shelter. *Kīrtanānanda: They are worried that by protecting the cow it would not be economic, that they would lose. But actually we have proof*-the more we protect cows, the more we gain in opulence. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: Our community is gaining in opulence. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhānyena dhanavān. If you have got grain, then you are rich. And if you have got cows, then you are rich. This is the standard of Vedic richness. Dhānyena dhanavān gavayo dhanavān. They don't say, "Keep some papers and you become rich." All rascal, one thousand dollar I promise to pay, a piece of paper. Practical, we have got enough food grains. We have got enough... That is richness. What is use of paper? Even gold you have got, you have to exchange. And if you have grain, immediate food. Just boil with milk, and it is nectarean, param anna, immediately. Take some wood collected from the wood and have fire, put the milk and the grains*-oḥ, you'll get so nice food, nutritious, full of vitamin, and so easily made. It is practical. So tasteful, so nutritious, and don't require. If you simply boil little milk and little grain, whole day, so much sweet rice, you take-bas. You don't require any more. And if you add little apples and fruits, oh, it is heavenly. Your whole day free from any food anxiety, and you can work. And you can work. You can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make this ideal life here. America has got good potency. We have got so much land here. We can have hundreds of New Vrindabans or farms like that. And people will be happy. And invite all the world, "Please come and live with us. Why you are suffering congestion, overpopulation? Welcome here. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Make that. Indian culture and American strength make the whole world happy. That logic even I have given? Andha-paṅgu? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Blind and lame. *Prabhupāda: India could not improve on account of poverty, lame. And America? Blind for want of culture. So let the blind man carry the lame man on the head, and the lame man give direction that "Go this way," and he walks. So both men's work is done. There is no hampering because one is blind and one is lame. Combined together, they get the benefit. Andha*-paṅgor nyāya. Rādhāvallabha: The book distributors use that example sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhāvallabha: It works too. Prabhupāda: Do it very sincerely. Don't spoil life. Be very sober and do this work. Whole world will be happy. After all, they are seeking after happiness. So there is happiness here. So our Ṛṣi Kumāra is very intelligent boy. He can do so many things. Don't spoil him. Whatever is done is done. Sometimes māyā is strong. He bewilders even Lord Śiva. That is... But Śiva immediately came to his senses-"What I am doing?" So things are going on nice. Continue this program. People will be happy. And I think America is the only place who can spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement happily for the benefit of the whole world. You have got everything sufficient. Now get the Kṛṣṇa intelligence. Now here, in this quarter, sun also rising very nicely. Formerly it was not so bright. Due to this Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting, sun is giving light. Is it not? Kīrtanānanda: It is a fact. Prabhupāda: The more people will be sinful, the place will be dark with cloudy. Nature will always disturb. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān [Bg. 16.19]. They will not be happy. It is not possible. This is the only way to become happy. So, so far as possible, I have given you some framework. Now you fill up. Make it a nice building. Yes. All right. (devotees offer obeisances) [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Viśākhā was wondering who..., if you have any idea or choice who should do the Hindi translation or Bengali translation and speaking for the film like this. Did you have anyone in particular in mind, or inquiry should be made? Prabhupāda: It requires some professional man. Laymen cannot go with the film. Hari-śauri: It needs a trained speaker. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Needs someone who's trained to speak nicely. Prabhupāda: Anyone can do. We can do also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But it may not come out so nice. Prabhupāda: But it may not be perfect. [break] Ṛṣi Kumāra: Prabhupāda, is it all right if I remain a sannyāsī? Prabhupāda: Stay for some time. You'll get sannyāsa. Stay for some time. Ṛṣi Kumāra: I don't want to get married. It's just being kicked by māyā. I can see that. Prabhupāda: At least you have got already experience. (laughs) Don't be misled. Stay for sometimes. Will be give you sannyāsa. And now Mr. Punja, has he written any letter? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Punjasai? He wrote a letter recently. He mentioned the business about the books, that Guru*-kṛpā said he was supposed to some give books from Australia, and he wasn't getting them. *Prabhupāda: So you can write him-note down*-that "We are managing our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by GBC. We have got about twenty GBC's for looking after the whole world affair, and above the GBC, I am there, and under the GBC's there are presidents, treasurers, secretaries in each and every center. So the president is responsible to the GBC. GBC is responsible to me. In this way we are managing. But why you are proposing a separate trustee for Fiji? We have no separate trustee till now, but if for security, if it is required, you can adopt it. So this is our management going on. Now, if you have got some new idea, so please explain to me how you want to manage. But I think Fiji temple cannot be managed in a separate idea. But still, I shall entertain if you have got some idea to manage. The deed should be given to the founder-ācārya, in the name of founder-ācārya like 'A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Founder-Ācārya International Society.' " Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The deed? Prabhupāda: The deed, yes. Kīrtanānanda: Should be? *Prabhupāda: "It cannot be dedicated to any of the office*-bearers." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The deed should be...? *Prabhupāda: "Deed should be made in favor of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, Founder-Ācārya, International Society. But it cannot be dedicated to any office*-bearer. So I suggest that you become the president on the temple and Upendra become the secretary, and either your brother or your wife can become the treasurer. There is no need of trustees. But in any circumstances, the temple cannot be a private property in the name of ISKCON. That is not possible." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "A private property in the name of ISKCON." Prabhupāda: "If you want to keep it a private property, then the ISKCON name should not be utilized." Here you have understood that he's trying to utilize ISKCON's name... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: To collect. Prabhupāda: ...to collect, and he'll be keeper. That should be frankly disclosed, that "This is not possible." So we shall write our Upendra? No, I have already written that he should be the secretary. No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You mentioned earlier today that he was supposed to be one of the trustees, but now this is different, so... Prabhupāda: So we are not going to make any trustee. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, no trustee. Prabhupāda: That is wrong. Kīrtanānanda: I understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. So in this way write him, "I am very much anxious to get your clear reply to this thing." Is that all right? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: All right. Kīrtanānanda: Can I... *Prabhupāda: So many things, "push*-push-push-push" is going on. Let it be clear. If he wants to keep it private property, then we shall withdraw ISKCON name. Let him do it privately. Hari-śauri: And he should send copies of the deeds also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Because he has not yet produced the deeds. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's what I wanted to ask, request a copy of the deed. Prabhupāda: You understand Hindi? Ṛṣi Kumāra: Not really. A little bit, but I can't follow it. Do you want me to go to India, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Wherever you find suitable. Ṛṣi Kumāra: I was thinking about going back to Los Angeles for a while, because there's good preaching to be done in Los Angeles and Laguna Beach too. I know a lot of people there. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles or New York. New York is your old place. But you don't want to go there? Ṛṣi Kumāra: New York? I can go there, I guess, but... Prabhupāda: No, you can remain in Los Angeles for the time being. Ṛṣi Kumāra: Because I know a lot of people in Laguna Beach who can be preached to. I think they'd be receptive, people who are... Prabhupāda: Reception is everywhere if we manage nice. Ṛṣi Kumāra: There are a lot of artists and people who have everything, and they're living in the nicest..., that's about the nicest place to live, and they're all unhappy. My brother's living there. He's a psychiatrist, and he's beginning to understand that the more he thinks, the more confused he gets, and I've been preaching to him, and he understands. There are also a lot of devotees who aren't in the temple now. They like Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but they also can be preached to, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, preaching constantly required to keep them in balance. As soon as the balance is tilted over on the māyā side, then everything is finished. Hari-śauri: They get a bit overwhelmed sometimes. *Prabhupāda: That is possible. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. It is very strong. But if we also become equally strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no... That... Just like in the beginning, a seed sown, it requires very careful attention. Then it grows up. And when one grows a tree, then that is all right. But so long it is not a tree-it is a plant*-one has to take... And the watering is śravaṇa-kīrtana. Śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana. That is required. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare āropaṇa, śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana. I think, nineteenth chapter of Madhya-līlā. Hari-śauri: It's a very good description how the bhakti tree grows, the creeper of bhakti. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śravaṇa*-kīrtana-jale karaye secana? Nineteenth chapter, Madhya-līlā. Mālī hañā kare sei bīja āropaṇa [Cc. Madhya 19.152], śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana: "When a person receives the seed of devotional service, he should take care of it by becoming a gardener and sowing the seed in his heart. If he waters the seed gradually by the process of śravaṇa and kīrtana, hearing and chanting, the seed will begin to sprout." Prabhupāda: Is there any purport? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "To live with devotees or to live in a temple means to associate with the śravaṇa*-kīrtana process. Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution of śravaṇa-kīrtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who engaged in the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity. However, one should not falsely imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura and abandon Deity worship just to try to engage in śravaṇa-kīrtana. This is not possible for neophyte devotees. The word guru-prasāda indicates that the spiritual master is very merciful in bestowing the boon of devotional service upon the disciple. That is the best possible gift the spiritual master has to offer. Those with a background of pious life are eligible to receive life's supreme benefit, and to bestow this benefit, the Supreme Personality of Godhead sends His representative to impart His mercy. Endowed with the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the spiritual master distributes the mercy to those who are elevated and pious. Thus the spiritual master trains his disciples to render devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called guru-kṛpā. It is kṛṣṇa-prasāda, Kṛṣṇa's mercy, that He sends a bona fide spiritual master to the deserving disciple. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, one meets the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of the spiritual master, the disciple is fully trained in the devotional service of the Lord. Bhakti-latā-bīja means 'the seed of devotional service.' Everything has an original cause, or seed. For any idea, program, plan or device, there is first of all the contemplation of the plan, and that is called bīja, or the seed. The methods, rules and regulations by which one is perfectly trained in devotional service constitute the bhakti-latā-bīja, or seed of devotional service. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received from the spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Other seeds are called anyabhilāṣa-bīja, karma-bīja and jñāna-bīja. If one is not fortunate enough to receive the bhakti-latā-bīja from the spiritual master, he instead cultivates the seeds of karma-bīja, jñāna-bīja, or political and social or philanthropic bīja. However, bhakti-latā-bīja is different from these other bījas. Bhakti-latā-bīja can be received only through the mercy of the spiritual master. Therefore one has to satisfy the spiritual master to get bhakti-latā-bīja, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. Bhakti-latā-bīja is the origin of devotional service. Unless one satisfies the spiritual master, he gets the bīja, or root cause, of karma, jñāna and yoga without the benefit of devotional service. However, one who is faithful to his spiritual master gets the bhakti-latā-bīja. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master. After receiving the spiritual master's mercy, one must repeat his instructions, and this is called śravaṇa-kīrtana-hearing and chanting. One who has not properly heard from the spiritual master or who does not follow the regulative principles is not fit for chanting, kīrtana. This is explained in Bhagavad-gītā: vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana [Bg. 2.41]. One who has not listened carefully to the instructions of the spiritual master is unfit to chant or preach the cult of devotional service. One has to water the bhakti-latā-bīja after receiving instructions from the spiritual master." Mālī hañā kare sei bīja āropaṇa, śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana [Cc. Madhya 19.152]. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hari-śauri: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Prabhupāda: There were a funny man. They are called Gopal Bhan. So formerly kings, they used to keep some funny men because they are always full of anxiety, and one funny man would give them joke. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They call them jesters, court jesters. Prabhupāda: Jester. Kīrtanānanda: Court jester. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Court jesters, yes. So there was a man, court jester, in Bengal. So the Muhammadan governor asked one Gopal Bhan, jester... He was jester in the court of Raja Krishna Chandra. So he asked him, Nawab, that "Gopal Bhan, I have heard you are very expert. Can you write a similar book, Mahābhārata, about my kingdom?" (laughter) "Oh, yes. Why not?" That is not... So he took some hundred thousands of rupees and again come: "Give me another ten thousand," "Another ten," in this way. "When the book will be finished? You have taken so much money." "It is just on the verge of being finished." Then, when he saw that no more money can be taken-"I have taken so much money"*-then he one day said that "Now, sir, one information is very essential. That is wanted. You give me, and the Mahābhārata will be finished. Everything is there." "What is that information?" "Now, your wife, how many husband she has got?" "This is nonsense!" "Eh? Well, that is the main subject matter of Mahābhārata. Draupadī had five husbands, so you are such a great person, your wife must have at least one dozen. Otherwise how Mahābhārata will...?" "It is the subject matter of?" "Yes, that is the only subject matter, that Draupadī had five husbands. So you are such a big nawab, your wife must at least have one dozen. So give me their names." So he became very angry, "Don't talk all this nonsense." "Then I cannot finish your Mahābhārata." "I have already invested..." So he took another ten thousand rupees, and he said, "Stop all this nonsense. That's all right." So these rascals, they are writing Gopal Bhan's Mahābhārata, and the rascal government is paying them. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are not producing anything. Prabhupāda: They'll never be able. Challenge. "That we cannot say." As soon as you say "Make an egg," "That we cannot say." And they'll chant "Chemical evolution, chemical evolution" and get Nobel Prize. Rascals. But how the people are so foolish that they believe in this? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oṁ ajñāna*-timirāndhasya. Without spiritual master there is nothing they can say. Prabhupāda: This is very simple. You see everything, white and yellow. Produce. Chemicals are white. Some chemicals are yellow also. Just like hydroform(?). It is yellow. And soda bicarb, white, or potash cyanide is white. So you have got so many chemicals, combine and pack it in a cell, and put underneath the incubator. Why rascal do not do this? Beat them with shoes. "Rascal, you are cheating in this way." Beat them with shoes. That's all. That is the only punishment. Hari-śauri: Yeah, that's too good. Prabhupāda: Hundreds of men demand them, that "Do it, otherwise don't talk nonsense. If you talk nonsense, then we will beat you with all our shoes." Then they'll stop all this nonsense talk. There is no punishment for their cheating and taking money. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Your Back to Godhead article in this last magazine, "They can make a 747 jet, but not a tiny mosquito." Very thought*-provoking. *Prabhupāda: With pilot. 747, you have to pay expert pilot, but here with pilot. Make this. Simply talking. Not only mosquito: at night we see so many, just like full stop, the same mechanical, flying from here, there, from here moving. Airplane, exactly in the form of... Similarly standing and... That is our challenge. Challenge this. Go in public meeting. Bring these so*-called scientists, "Why don't you make any...? Why do you talk all this nonsense and cheat people?" Simple. Why first of all Sunday? There is no Monday first. I think never this question's raised, anybody. Fool's paradise. The Western world is fool's paradise. Actually this is the time they are getting enlightenment. Otherwise they are all fool's paradise. No social life, no religious life, simply get money somehow or other and enjoy wine, women, meat. That's all. This is their civilization. Do live comfortably; there is no harm. But why misconception? Hari-śauri: At least be honest. Prabhupāda: Yes. How can you deny God? All the scientists, they deny God. This simple fact that there is... [break] ...is mother, and beginning from grass to the highest form of human being there are children. The mother is there; the children are there. Who is the father? How you can say there is no father? If the mother is there, then child is there, there must be father. I do not know how they can deny a supreme father. Anyway, this New Vrindaban life will attract people gradually, this peaceful life. They are searching after alternative. Hari-śauri: In the Vedic culture did they have sheep? Sheep herds? Did they keep sheep? Prabhupāda: Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For making, you know, the wool, woolen garments like the cap and cādara... Sometimes it's made out of wool. They would get from sheep? *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, the meat*-eaters cannot be stopped. They will eat meat. So they can kill the small animals, unimportant, not cow. Kṛṣṇa says, go-rakṣya. He never said lamb-rakṣya or hog-rakṣya. (laughs) You can eat hog. If it is decided that you must eat meat, then you can eat a nonimportant animal. We have no objection. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Or at least, as you said this morning, wait until the cow dies naturally. Prabhupāda: That is another. Otherwise, if you want to kill, you kill less important animal. Hari-śauri: Chickens. Prabhupāda: Yes. Give protection to the cow, the source of milk. Hari-śauri: In most rural districts formerly, even just sixty or seventy years ago, they used to do that. The used to keep a hog or some animals for killing. They would fatten them up and kill them. Prabhupāda: Still in India, the low class, they keep hogs for killing. And they publicly kill the hog by burning outside the village skirt. Hari-śauri: I can remember when I was a child that my grandfather, he had one pigsty. And the house we were living in, that also had a pigsty at the back. There were no pigs by the time I came, but only just a few years before they were doing that. Prabhupāda: Why the government should keep slaughterhouse? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You asked them that in Mauritius, I remember. The government started a chicken slaughterhouse. You said, "Why the government should have slaughterhouse?" And they replied, "They will kill them anyway. There are so many Muslims." Prabhupāda said, "Let them kill, but why the government should support this slaughter?" Prabhupāda: Let them kill at their house. Especially chicken, anyone can kill. Hari-śauri: The government's idea is that "The people are going to do these activities, so we may as well cash in, make money." Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: The government, their idea is that if they are going to do this activity... Prabhupāda: And as soon as I heard that prime minister went to open this, I immediately... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda didn't want to meet him. Prabhupāda: "Oh, he's a rascal." Hari-śauri: In Mauritius the prime minister opened a chicken factory. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's a Hindu too. Prabhupāda: Immediately I gave up the idea of meeting this rascal. [break] Hari-śauri: Of course, they'll always try to claim... Prabhupāda: From our estimation it is failure. They have not gone there. Prabhupāda: But what is their standard of failure and success? Hari-śauri: Well, they don't... They're establishing a standard now. They don't have a standard. They are always going to try to claim that it is beneficial. Otherwise, if it's judged a failure, then they won't get any money. *Prabhupāda: That way they are successful*-in getting money. Hari-śauri: So they have to say it's a success. Just like this Mars thing. If they can land a spaceship that takes a few photographs, supposedly of Mars, then that's considered a success. Prabhupāda: Photograph you can take anywhere. Hari-śauri: Yes. Could they actually...? Are they actually sending these spaceships to another planet, or... Prabhupāda: That they know. According to our calculations, they have not gone. Therefore false propaganda. They cannot go. (end) *Room Conversation-*-June 29, 1976, New Vrindaban Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What we've been doing with the dead cows is burying them, there's no..., everything's wasted. Śrīla Prabhupāda is proposing that why not the butcher take, we give free, he simply returns us the skin of the cow, and with the cow hide we properly tan it, we can make mṛdaṅga heads for the khol, and shoes, straps, whatever may be needed. The idea being that in the Western countries especially, people are accustomed to eating animals, animal flesh. So we have no objection. Prabhupāda: Beef, especially beef. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially cows and beef. So we have no objection, but they should at least wait until it dies naturally. What is the harm? They still get the same thing, and one devotee, Kīrtanānanda, I think, was saying that when they slaughter an animal even in the slaughterhouse, it has to sit some time, some number of days before they distribute it. So I proposed that the Westerners, they consider that this is superstitious, this protection of the cow. Prabhupāda says Why superstitious? The cow is providing milk. Every child knows that he's getting milk from the cow, the cow is mother. So why in the old age we should slaughter mother? Is this a good argument that like, for example, they say, in India, how so many people are starving, why don't they eat the cows? So Prabhupāda proposed that "If you're starving, does it mean that you eat your mother and father?" Prabhupāda: If you want to eat, let the father and mother die, then eat. (laughter) Who has objection? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's so reasonable. At least, Prabhupāda says, for the saner section, they will accept. Hari-śauri: The thing is, people are mad after meat. Prabhupāda: Madman... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they still get it. Prabhupāda: But he'll get meat. Hari-śauri: But then their argument is that if we don't have big, big slaughterhouses, then there won't be enough supply. Prabhupāda: No why should...? After all, the animal is going to die. It is not for..., he's permanently. Why should you kill? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they kill the animal first in the slaughterhouse and then do whatever they have to do. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But we are killing when they are young, when their meat is fresh. When the body is old, the meat is... Prabhupāda: That you have to change. Fresh or dead, you're eating flesh, that's all. You wait till the death. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But the old flesh is not... Prabhupāda: Anyway, you do not..., you do whatever you like. So at least you can take free of charges a dead cow from us, and you can give us only the skin, and you eat. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: This should be the system. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's so reasonable. Prabhupāda: Yes. We don't want anything from you; you take it, the whole flesh. You take free. You simply give us the skin, we can utilize it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even if people would do this, it would be such an advancement. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because a class of men will demand to eat the flesh. You cannot stop it. So we are giving free: you eat. And from economic point of view, we require the skin for our mṛdaṅga making. So give us the skin. That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda says the butcher, even, he can sell the meat cheaply, make profit. He's getting it free of charge. Hari-śauri: Maybe some time in the future this could happen when Kṛṣṇa consciousness becomes very powerful influence in the country, but unless we could actually close the slaughterhouse... Prabhupāda: No, but now by imploring, we are requesting him that "You can take this cow and sell in your shop, butcher shop, you give us the skin. And you can tell the customer that it is as good, it is cheaper. So whatever money you get, that is your profit. You haven't got to invest anything." Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Do you propose that we should do this now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, no, this is... Think over. Hari-śauri: Yes, the proposition is very good, that's a fact. Prabhupāda: First of all, you try one butcher, that "Why not make this advantage?" How does he react, see. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, that he will not pay anything... Prabhupāda: He's not going to pay us. You simply take it and sell it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They sell meat..., for one pound of meat, they can get sometimes two dollars, three dollars, four dollars. So much money... Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But the government has inspectors, a team of inspectors. No meat can be sold unless it is inspected, and then they want to examine the conditions. Prabhupāda: So let them inspect. What is the wrong there? It should be open. If the inspection, there is nothing wrong, then they can do this business. Hari-śauri: Generally, though, their inspection is when the animal is alive, they check to see that he has no disease. Then they can be killed. But if an animal dies naturally, then generally it is to be supposed that it dies from some malfunction within the body, that there may be some diseases or whatever. So then... Prabhupāda: That is artificial. Hari-śauri: But that is their rules and regulations they have. Prabhupāda: They'll change. When they, by chemical analysis, they don't find any fault, then they can change. From economic point of view, why this body should be wasted? Let it be utilized. Those that are eating, let them eat. And economic point of view, we save the skin. We require it for our purpose. That is the agreement. After all, we require the skin for our khol making. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: For the farm straps? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Shoes, slippers, so many things. I think Kīrtanānanda Swami has done that with some of the cows. They have taken the hide for making things, straps. Hari-śauri: They're not doing it now, though. Prabhupāda: But we should not do it ourselves. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, that's for the mucis. Prabhupāda: That is not our business. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Give it to the butcher. He will get the skin and give it to us. Prabhupāda: Not that everything we have to do. No. That will deteriorate. Those who are doing, let it be done by them. Hari-śauri: It seems like it will be a long time before we can implement something like that. *Prabhupāda: I am proposing, think over it. Because it is a fact that in spite our vigorous propaganda, we cannot stop meat*-eating. That is not possible. People will eat. So those who are eating, let us make some arrangement that "You take it free of charges." From economic point of view, they get it free. They can make good profit. And we are interested with the skin. So why not make some arrangement? It is practical. Hari-śauri: That's very good. Prabhupāda: Instead of the thing being wasted for nothing, let us devise some means, that you are eating, you can eat. And we want the skin, let us give him. What is the wrong there? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Perfect economics. Prabhupāda: Yes. We require the skin, that's a fact. And you want to eat, all right, eat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Could such a thing be done today in India also? Prabhupāda: No, why it will be done? Everywhere it should be. That is the... Who does not eat meat? First of all, you try this. From economic point of view, why one thing should be wasted? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Practical preaching. *Hari-śauri: We can't stop meat*-eating, but we can stop the unnecessary slaughter of animals. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would be a great step forward. *Prabhupāda: So our business is to stop slaughter. Meat*-eating we cannot stop. Certain persons, they must eat. They are fourth-class, and then fifth-class men. There are four classifications-brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and caṇḍāla. Caṇḍālas, they will remain, and they are eating. Let them eat meat. That is the system in India still. It is not that in India nobody's eating meat. The cobbler class, they eat; the caṇḍāla class, they eat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even cows, cow flesh. Prabhupāda: Dead. This cow killing has been introduced by these Britishers. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Christian. Prabhupāda: Christians. Hari-śauri: Even they're exporting beef from India. Prabhupāda: Yes. They can do anything, take the dead cows. I do not know if there is any chemical composition change. They are eating so many dead animals. Take for fish. The fish is never killed alive, because as soon as you take it out from water, it is dead, after few minutes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And they don't consider whether it's a young fish or an old fish. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: If that was the system, people will not get sick. They will not get sick from eating old animals. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is all wrong conception. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will say..., simply think the taste there is too tough, the skin may be older. Prabhupāda: They are eating so many rotten things. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. And they are burning it, cooking it. Prabhupāda: Lobster, it is simply pus. They eat. I've seen it. From whiteness it has become yellow. Puslike. They eat it, what is called that soup? Lobster soup? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Clam chowder? So many things. Prabhupāda: But they like very much that lobster soup. In the plane, one Englishman was doing "What is this? I asked after lobster soup." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In England? Oysters? Prabhupāda: No, lobsters. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With the big pinchers. Hari-śauri: They get the lobsters sometimes alive, and they throw them in boiling water, and they can hear them screaming. But now they're speculating whether it's actually the lobsters screaming because it's being boiled alive or whether it's just air that's coming out from its body and making a squeaking noise. Prabhupāda: No, that is, apart from that, they import lobster from India, Cochin. They are exporting lobster alive. I have seen. The same ship, they load it with lobster fat, and black creepers, and cashews, they exported. The big, big business firms are exporting. So these lobster, although they are kept in ice and so on, so on, they become decomposed. I've seen in the port, that Commonwealth Pier. There is store of lobster, and the lobster has become yellow and almost melted by decomposing. They are selling that. Hari-śauri: When it starts to fall apart, that's when they consider it's the best. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: When it starts to fall apart, that's when they think it's the best. I think I mentioned before, in England, the gentry, the British gentry, when they used to go hunting, shooting pheasants and partridges, afterwards they would get the dead birds and hang them in a shed outside, and then after some days, when all the skin and feathers were literally falling off, that's when they would eat it. That's when it was considered rich. Prabhupāda: There are so many kadarya things. In Burma, they have got a system, Burmese family. In the door, there is a pot, a big pot. So whatever animal dies, put it in there and cover it. So in this way, after some years, they're decomposed, and it becomes liquid, and then it is so decomposed that if you open it, within three miles they smell. So that is mature. Then they take out the liquid and keep it in bottles. That is called naphi. And they stock it, and when there is some feast at home they'll give little that naphi, and they'll relish it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Barbers? Prabhupāda: Burma. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's the most... Prabhupāda: And when you fry luci, all the other tenants will come "What you are cooking?" This is practical because we opened..., my Guru Mahārāja opened a branch in Burma in an apartment. So that Gaurāṅga who was my servant in family life, he was there. He said like this, that "When I fry puri, the ghee smell is there, so many people will come from other apartments, (whispers) "Oh, what you are cooking? What you are cooking?" And the naphi, they relish it in feast. So it is a question of taste. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's the ultimate. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: I remember as a child in Hong Kong, in the village they would keep big glass jars of snakes, they would put the snakes in jars. And after they were many times soaking in liquid, then they would eat it. Hari-śauri: Pickled snakes. Prabhupāda: Snakes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes, keep it in a jar in liquid. Prabhupāda: They put in the jar alive? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No, they catch it, kill it, put it in the jar. Hari-śauri: It's like a pickle, they pickle it. And when they want to eat it, they take. Prabhupāda: So there is poison in the mouth, they cut it? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They cut off the head, flesh. Prabhupāda: Snake they eat. Even in India there is a class, they eat snake. Chinese, they eat. They are Chinese? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: They eat anything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So many abominable things. Hari-śauri: Someone was telling me in Mexico they have a sandwich called tortilla. It has live cockroaches. And as they're eating, the cockroaches are running to get out of the sandwich, and they are pushing them back in and eating it. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Africa also they eat live bugs. Cockroaches, dead or alive, anything. Once when we were in Zambia, there was this one African who was cleaning around the house, his name was David. He was about twenty years old. So we swept up his room because it was so filthy*-I was there at the time. And there were all these cockroaches in a pile, and we were about to throw them out and he said, "What, you're throwing them out? You mean you're not going to eat them?" (laughter) Dhṛṣṭadyumna: There was one big, big professor we met in the college... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's hard to understand that prasādam is (indistinct). (laughter) *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Not only the Africans, but this big, big professor, she is advocating that people should eat the bugs because they are good protein. She is experimenting different bugs to eat-the worm, the cockroach, the beetle*-and she's making a big study, being paid money, how to feed people by eating insects. *Hari-śauri: They're already doing that. In France, you can buy cans of chocolate*-coated ants, grasshoppers, frog's legs, bumblebees, fried bumblebees you can get. The French eat the most abominable foodstuff. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The English think that way, anyway. Hari-śauri: They all do. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The English think the French eat abominable foods. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: This is the modes of nature, Śrīla Prabhupāda, acting. Prabhupāda: Kadarya bhakṣaṇa. Hari-śauri: It's difficult to imagine what kind of fate we would have had if you hadn't come and started this movement. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everything is so scientific. We've seen practically that as people take up this chanting, that gradually they lose their taste for every other kind of eating. It's a fact. I should inform Kīrtanānanda Swami about some of these ideas? Prabhupāda: Yes, if you can arrange with the butcher. Hari-śauri: One thing, the other day they were saying that sometimes when they have this skim milk, and there's some excess after they've fed it to the cows, they throw it away, they use it for fertilizer. Should they do that? Is that all right to use that? Prabhupāda: Oh, no. We can use it. Hari-śauri: The skim milk, after they've... Prabhupāda: What is that? Explain. Hari-śauri: They have some skim milk. So when they've finished giving it to the devotees and they've finished giving it to the cows, then if there's any extra, they throw it away. Prabhupāda: How give it to the cows? Hari-śauri: They feed it to the cows. Prabhupāda: They eat? Hari-śauri: They drink it. They put it in their feed, whatever. But then if there's any extra, they throw it away, they put on the..., mix it with fertilizer or whatever for the land. Prabhupāda: It should not be given to the cows. It should be kept, and when it is broken, you get the chānā. Hari-śauri: It should be made into curd and yogurt, things like that. Prabhupāda: Yes, not yogurt, chānā, what you call, curd? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cheese, like cheese. Prabhupāda: Cheese, yes? But it should not be thrown. From cheese you can make so many preparations. Hari-śauri: I'll mention it to Kulādri then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned also about the whey that you get. Prabhupāda: Everything should be utilized. Instead of drinking water, you can drink whey. It is very good for digesting. Whey, put little salt and black pepper, it is good digestant. You can avoid water, drink whey. You can use it for cāpāṭi. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Making dough? Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi, just like you dip the cāpāṭi, dāl, you can dip whey. You can save dāl preparing expenditure. Nothing of milk product can be wasted. You should learn it. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's what I thought, that's why I was asking. Prabhupāda: Up to the last drop, it can be utilized. Hari-śauri: Everything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Skim milk should not be given to the calves? The calves should get? Prabhupāda: They don't require it. They don't require it. The cow is especially meant for the human beings. They can utilize in so many ways, and they should give protection, such an important animal. This is human being. (end) *Interview with Mike Darby-*-June 30, 1976, Wheeling, W. Virginia Darby: ...don't need education then to... *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are coming from Detroit? There are so many factories for four*-wheel vehicles, and there is no factory to educate man to the right path. Perhaps... This is our little attempt, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to educate to the right path. We are not getting any help, either from the authority... In our own way, as far as possible, we are doing. When people will be educated they will be able to understand who is guru, who is not guru. We can say, but who is going to accept? We say always that they are all rascals, but who will accept our statement? And the state, (if) there had been a department to see what is the qualification of guru, then immediately they would have taken steps. Just like in Kṛṣṇa's time one man falsely presented himself as God. Immediately his head was cut off. Pauṇḍraka. So the state must be very strong to punish the miscreant. But there is no such state. Darby: This man, Sun Yung Moon, claims to be the Messiaḥ, the Jesus Christ revived. *Prabhupāda: So it is the duty of the Christians. But they are also... What can I say? They are passing resolution according to the time, changing the instruction of Bible. How they can be fixed*-up? Our standard is Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. We accept guru as representative of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he speaks what Kṛṣṇa has spoken, then he is guru. Similar in Christianity, if they actually take care that whether one is speaking according to the Ten Commandments, if he is living according to the rules and regulations of the Ten Commandments, then he is guru. Why people accept them? Because they are ignorant, they do not know who is real and who is fake. But the standard is there. Take for example in the Bible, it is said "Thou shalt not kill." But everyone is killing. Killing is the business of the Christians. They are maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. We are maintaining cows here, and there are others, they are maintaining cows for slaughtering. Why? In these Commandments it is clearly said that "Thou shalt not kill." How they will detect? If they are violating themselves the laws, how they will punish the lawbreaker? "Physician, heal thyself." The physician himself is diseased, and he's going to treat other patients. Darby: So they all just continue in a circle to break their own laws. Prabhupāda: What can be done? Darby: Would it help if someone took the Bible and wrote a Vaiṣṇava purport or tried to simplify it so that people could understand it? The language is difficult for the common man now to understand. *Prabhupāda: That we are spreading. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that you act what Kṛṣṇa or God says, that's all. In our Bhagavad*-gītā the guru's description is there, who is guru. Read the fourth chapter. On this all literature, simply guru and disciple, one is instructing, and one is hearing. Hari-śauri: From 4.1? *"The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun*-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu, in turn, instructed it to Ikṣvāku." *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa instructed first to the sun-god. Sun*-god instructed his son, Manu; he instructed his son, Ikṣvāku. In this way things are coming. Then read the second verse. Hari-śauri: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost." Prabhupāda: The succession was broken. So similarly, Christ says something. So if that commandment is received by succession, then it goes nicely. But if you break it according to your necessity, then where is the authority? Darby: None. No use if you have the rules there, the law is there, to be passed, and someone forgets them, it's just sinful. Prabhupāda: No, they are passing resolution. Suppose there is a law of the state, ordinary, say, "Keep to the right," and in this village all members, they assemble together and pass a resolution that "No, keep to the left." Will it be accepted? Even they pass a resolution, the state will not accept it. Unless it is... Of course, there should be no change. But, anything spoken by God or His son or His representative, that cannot be changed. It is not that Christ said two thousand years ago, "Thou shall not kill," now it can be changed. That is rascaldom. They are doing that. If you do that, then, as it is said here, then it becomes lost. Then there is no meaning. If we take the instruction of God and His representative as temporary, then he is not representative, He is not God. Whatever is spoken by God and His representative, that is eternal. You cannot change by your whims. So that is going on. We..., I do not wish to discuss very much, but that is actually going on. As people they, by votes in the Parliament, they pass any nonsense thing, so they want to do that in the case of Bible also. Then where is the authority of Bible? If Christ says that "Thou shall not kill," and if people, say ten thousand people in a meeting pass resolution, "No, this is wrong," then where is the authority of Bible? Then you become authority. Darby: I see. Then in the Bible, the beginning of it says that God created the heavens and the earth, and yet they say, give the description in Genesis as the way God created the heaven and the earth. Does this not conform with Brahmā's work? *Prabhupāda: Yes, God has created everything. Just like father, son and the mother. Mother gives birth to the son when the mother is impregnated by the father. This is the law, everyone knows. Now you can see that so many trees are coming from earth. Is it not? Trees and plants and grass. And we eat them, we live. Therefore the earth is mother, and the children are so many. The plants are about two million types of plants. Jalajā nava lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa*-viṁśati. Then there are insects, reptiles, then beasts, then man. In this way there are so many living entities. The living entities are produced from the earth. The earth is the mother and the living entities are the sons. Then where is the father? This simple thing, why do they not inquire? Who is the father? Darby: Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa, God, or whatever you speak, there must be father. You cannot say that these children, the offsprings are coming automatically. Then you are a fool if you say like that. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Find out this verse: Hari-śauri: *"It should be understood that all the species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Prabhupāda: So how can I deny God? How can you deny your father? If you say "I've not seen my father," that does not mean you have no father. Ask your mother, she will reply, "Yes, you have your father." So the argument is forwarded that "We cannot see God; therefore there is no God." This rascal argument is being forwarded. Because you are speaking, you are existing, there must be father. That is conclusion. Without father, there would have been no possibility of your existence. You are speaking, talking so loudly, "There is no God." This is going on. "Because I do not see God, therefore there is no God." Darby: So many people call themselves Christians, they still try to deny God. *Prabhupāda: Not only Christians, the whole world is now like that. Religion has become a subject matter of laughing. If one is God conscious, religious, he is considered fool number one, not very much advanced. Especially the scientists, the rascal scientists. And they'll bluff you in so many ways, that life is produced from chemicals. When we challenge them that "You make a little egg with chemicals and put it in the incubator and let life come," what will be the answer? The so*-called scientist who says that life is made by combination of chemicals? Anyone can see the composition of egg, a little white and yellow substance. There are many chemicals, they are all white, and there are many chemicals yellow also. Combine together and put it in the incubator and see whether chicken is coming or not. And still they will assert, write big, big books, that life is coming out of chemicals. And people are accepting this bluff. So it is very precarious condition of present world. People want to be bluffed and there are many bluffers. And they are satisfied that "I am bluffed by a big bluffer." That's all. This is going on. Darby: These scientists think about making life with chemicals, yet none of them have even been able to begin their experiments. Prabhupāda: I have therefore said, "Make a small egg, then talk of big, big things." Darby: They can make one chemical which leaves the life. Prabhupāda: Not only that: if you are a sane man, you analyze your body. Now find out where is life. Beginning analysis is the breathing. You take... Now a man is dead. Somebody says, "Now, because his breathing is stopped, therefore he is dead." So what is this breathing? It is simply a little air. So put some machine, and the air may come and go and give him life. Take anything, breathing, then you take blood, then you take skin, then you take muscle, then you take bone, then take your stool, urine, find out life. Is it possible? Then why do you say that life is combination of chemicals? You take this blood, urine and stool, what is called, bone and muscle and air, what is combination, and produce another man. So they are talking this nonsense, and nonsense people are accepting. And they are being paid for, high salary, for talking this nonsense at the cost of the taxpayer. Darby: They get big profit, and no one else does. Prabhupāda: And they are going to the moon planet, Mars planet, and bring some dust. Darby: They try to keep the people busy by showing them other planets. Prabhupāda: Yes. Busy means they can show all these bluff busy programs to the rascals, not to the sane man. Darby: Could you tell us a little about your spiritual master's life? I've never heard anything. Prabhupāda: This is spiritual master, one who is representative of God. And one who speaks what God has said, then he's spiritual master. Darby: But I have never heard anything of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta, and I wondered if you would tell me a little bit about him, if you would. Prabhupāda: What shall I say? He was my spiritual master, and whatever he taught, we are speaking, that's all. We don't talk any nonsense. Darby: Yes. That's all I have to ask you. Thank you for allowing me your time. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Darby: I've waited very long to see you. Prabhupāda: Thank you for your kindness. (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 1, 1976, New Vrindaban Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His last questions are like this. He's asking about proselytizing in the Western countries, preaching. Is there any hope for preaching? He says Hindi dharma, like this. I think everything is arising because of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement and your Divine Grace's preaching work. Otherwise, they were all sleeping. Hari-śauri: Ten years ago if they'd have asked these questions before you came to the West, they wouldn't even have thought about going to the West. They are only asking that now because they can see in the last ten years we've been so much successful. *Prabhupāda: They do not know what is bhakti, what is Vedānta. They do not know. Simply aspiring, all after women and money, that's all. First*-class rogues. I know all of them, all first-class rogues, after money and women. Beginning from Vivekananda. But they are so popular, if you say openly... Satyam bruhet ma bruhet satyam apriyam(?). "You can speak truth, but don't speak which is unpalatable." But we speak in a different way. And directly we don't speak. People will be angry. They're already fools and rascals. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of the others are trying to make some compromise. Prabhupāda: That is also bad. How we can make compromise? Here is gold, here is iron, how you can compromise? Can we accept iron as gold? All right, let us accept. (laughs) Where is the possibility? Hari-śauri: They don't see that clearly. They are looking at their iron and thinking it's gold. *Prabhupāda: They are seeing... They're tested. I don't make any compromise. All my speaking is also no compromise. Here is guru, here is Kṛṣṇa, here is God, here is Vedānta. Real version they neglect, and they stick to the rascal's version, Śaṅkara's version, Śārīraka*-bhāṣya. All over India, they are reading Śārīraka-bhāṣya. Hari-śauri: Rāmānujācārya is very well known in India, so why don't they read his commentary? Prabhupāda: They hate Rāmānujācārya because he's Vaiṣṇava. Hari-śauri: Because he doesn't allow them to speculate. *Prabhupāda: He is very strict. He is a stubborn enemy of Śaṅkarācārya. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, declare it: māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. If you hear the interpretation of Māyāvādīs, then you are doomed. You have no hope for spiritual advancement. This is the statement. Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa. Finished, your spiritual life is finished. You can write this also, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction is strictly to avoid the so-called Vedantists. Hari-śauri: All these impersonalists, they always represent themselves as being big Vedantists. They don't know anything. Prabhupāda: And people, leaders of India, they are thinking, "Where is this Vedantist?" In foreign countries, what is their position? *Hari-śauri: Somehow or other, they seem to think that the Vedānta is something better than any of the other śāstra. Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam doesn't seem to be so popular in India as Vedānta or something like that. *Prabhupāda: It is very popular amongst the Māyāvāda people. You speak also... Now the so*-called Vedantists they are speaking on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, distorting. Akhoyananda, Akandananda, Karpatri(?), the rascals. Because they have no subject matter to speak, they are distorting the meaning of Bhāgavata. This boy appears to be nice, this fat boy. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kīrtanānanda said he's the only local boy who has taken interest. He's from hereabouts. Prabhupāda: He said that "I've wanted to see you since a long time." So, keep friendship with... Giving them prasādam? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kīrtanānanda Swami cut up some watermelon, and we distributed it to the guests. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, shall I lock this up? Prabhupāda: Hmm. (end) *Arrival Room Conversation-*-July 2, 1976, Washington, D.C. (very noisy, microphone rattling) Prabhupāda: ...live? Is he finished, or if somewhere he is still living, nobody knows. You are keeping his memorial, but where is the actual person, they do not know. Suppose I have come here and all of a sudden I go away, keeping my shirt and coat. And if you worship my shirt and coat and do not take care where I have gone, is that very good intelligence? Vṛṣākapi: No, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: This is going on. Vṛṣākapi: We will worship your shirt and coat, though. Prabhupāda: Lincoln, if you worship... Where is Lincoln's temple? In Paris, I saw one park, Napoleon Bonaparte. You have been there? Rūpānuga: Yes, Paris. Prabhupāda: They identified "Napoleon is France." France is there, but where is Napoleon? They do not consider like this. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Blind man be happy that Lincoln was here, that's all. Where he is now? Or he's finished. If he's finished, why you are worshiping his shirt and coat? What is the answer? What is their answer? If he's finished, what is the use of worshiping his shirt and coat? Vipina: They say that what he accomplished, although it may not be the final answer, it was a step forward, and therefore he should be worshiped. *Prabhupāda: Then his worship must be... That means after furnishing (?) he is also finished? That is ignorance. That is not the fact. If he's finished, then what was the purpose of furnishing?(?) There are so many questions in this connection, but they cannot understand. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. This is ignorance. This kind of civilization is civilization of darkness. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. Rūpānuga: It looks like the devotees are the only people who are enlightened in this dark world. By your mercy, only the devotees can actually see anything properly and understand the condition. Prabhupāda: In Russia, that Kruschev, he was... Now, where he has gone, nobody knows. Finished. Nobody knows. Hari-śauri: They retired him. They gave him a small place just outside Moscow. Prabhupāda: You know that? Hari-śauri: Yes, there was a story about five years after he got kicked out of office. He was just doing nothing, living by himself. Prabhupāda: And what he has done? Nothing, and what he has done? Vṛṣākapi: They want to worship Kṛṣṇa, but they don't know how. *Prabhupāda: They don't want to worship anyone. They want to worship their senses. That's all. Sense gratification. What is dictated by the senses, they agree to worship. Servant of the senses. In the material world nobody worships nobody. Everyone serves his own senses: "I like it." That's all. There is a Bengali song, yoke yadi lage phala kena dag botai(?). "If it satisfies my eyes, why shall I not see? I shall see." This is the sum*-substance of... Yoke yadi lage phala kena dag bhajai.(?) Everyone wants sense gratification, to be servant of the senses. If the senses want "Do this," he will do it. And our movement is that we shall not hear the dictation of the senses; *we shall do what Kṛṣṇa says. That is just opposite. So long I am carrying out the orders of the senses, then I am involved in this material birth, death, transmigration. Today I am running on this nice car. Next I can stand up here as a tree. Who can check it? After death you are completely under the... You are... Your life also completely under the laws of nature. So there is no discussion, no understanding, no knowledge about this. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. We have to change our body. What kind of body we are going to get, nobody knows. This life is everything. This body is everything. Very risky. They do not inquire even wherefrom this body has come. They are also coming. They are also living. They are also eating. The trees, they are also eating water. Vipina: Our distributors were in the airport not long ago, and they distributed a book to a man who has just recently written a book called The Fourth Kingdom. And he stopped off to visit our temple and talk with us because he was impressed with the devotees and the literature, and he would like to come and speak to you. Prabhupāda: You have arranged some engagement? *Vipina: Yes. If it's all right with you, he'll come. He's very nice, but he has some mixed*-up ideas. *Prabhupāda: Everyone has mixed*-up ideas because nobody is properly trained up. Some ideas they have got, some inquiries they have got. But unless one comes to the right person, he cannot be enlightened. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Therefore one must approach the proper guru. Rūpānuga: Everyone has accepted the wrong authority. Everyone has accepted the wrong authority. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he's misled by sense gratification, so even he approaches a guru, if the guru cannot satisfy his senses, he doesn't like. Because he's under the subjugation of senses, he expects that guru also will satisfy his senses, then he is guru. If guru says something against his sense gratification, "Ah, he is not guru." (laughs) Guru also must be a person who can satisfy your senses. This is his sense gratification. Vipina: After he took those books home and he read them, he wrote us a letter, and he said that he thought you were a very intelligent man and would like to speak to you. So we'll see. Maybe he can hear. Prabhupāda: Yes, we are speaking something not of this world, but we are pointing out the defects of this world. "This world" means the world of sense gratification. Vṛṣākapi: The karmīs, they say "What is the matter with sense gratification?" They say they like sense gratification; it's very good. Prabhupāda: Very good, but if you can continue it. But you rascal, you cannot continue it. "Very good, I am now president," but why you are kicked out? Huh? Now, what about the Nixon? Very good, he was president, now he's kicked out, what is his position? He doesn't think that, that "I may be kicked out from my position at any moment. So what is the value of my sense gratification?" He was gratifying his senses. As he liked, he was doing. But now he's kicked out, what he can do now? Why does he not think that? Take the living example. Who wants to be kicked out from the presidency? But now he's kicked out. He's living also. He's not in that position. That Kruschev, he's not in that position. Why does he not think that "Any moment I'll be kicked out." And what is that enforcement that kicks out? Vṛṣākapi: Why don't they think like that, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Hari-śauri: That's due to too much sinful activity? Too much sinful activity that they can't think that there's some divine influence? *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no education, fools. They're childish. A child is playing, he's enjoying, but he does not know that he has to take education, he has to grow up, he'll become a young man. Sometimes, if he's not educated, he'll suffer. He doesn't know. He's playing. That's all. The father says "My dear child, you read." "No, I like playing." Similarly, they are childish, foolish, without any responsibility. The animals are doing like that. Ṛṣabhadeva says "No, no, no. This life is not for this purpose." Nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. Simply for sense gratification so much trouble, like hogs and dogs, this is not life. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvam. Just practice austerity to purify your existence. Your existence is not purified. You are put in a position. If you like, that's all right, but because you are not in a purified position, you'll be kicked out at any moment. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni. You are very proud to have your position, but nature will kick you out at any moment, but you cannot do anything. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. He's foolish. He's thinking "I have everything. I can remain in this presidential position as I like." That is not the position. That is foolishness, that is childish. He does not know what is his position. But he wants position. That means there is a good position for him, but not here. That he does not know. Everyone is hankering after good position, but where is that good position, that he does not know. Everyone is hankering after water, but he is going after water in the desert. That is animalism. The animal runs after the water in the desert, and a human being, he knows, "No, this is not water, this is reflection." The water is there, that's a fact, but not here. That is human... It is reflection of water. Reflection water means the water is there, but it is not here. Similarly, good position is there, but not here. Here it is simply a reflection of that position. That he does not understand. Where is the actual water, wherefrom the reflection comes, that he does not know. Falsely thinking that "Here is everything." Very big, big scientists, they are thinking only on this planet there is life, and all planets are vacant. Too late.(?) Vṛṣākapi: They all think like that, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: They are such rascals. They have no common sense that this is also one of the planets, it is filled up with life and everything, and why the other planets should be vacant? If there is rock and sand, then why not other things? Here is also rock and sand and other things. But these rascals, they think there is simply rock and sand, nothing else. And they are misleading. What is the reason? This planet is filled up with life, and other planets vacant. All right, vacant. Go and colonize there. They say it is not possible. Then why do you go there? This is going on. Vipina: Nobody wants to do the wrong thing. Nobody wants to go up... Prabhupāda: They are doing wrong thing every moment. Vipina: Yes, but I mean no one works to do the wrong thing; they work to do the right thing. Prabhupāda: But they'll not take the right thing. If you say the right thing, they will come to beat you with shoes. Run away. Hari-śauri: They don't have any idea what the right thing is. Everything they're doing is wrong. Prabhupāda: They want right thing, but they have no idea of right thing, and if you say the right thing, they will not accept it. This is their disease. Rūpānuga: That is more than māyā; that is their heart. Prabhupāda: That is called māyā. Rūpānuga: That is māyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are suffering, and if you give him the remedy that he'll not have to suffer, he'll not take it. Rūpānuga: But that rejection, that is their choice of the heart, isn't it? I mean, they have a choice to make? Prabhupāda: No, no. That is the same thing. Just the child is playing, but if you say "My dear child, you please take education, otherwise you'll suffer." "Oh, I don't..." Child does not like. He wants to play. That is childish, or foolish. Rūpānuga: He doesn't want to be educated. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This human life is meant for becoming educated about Brahman. They will not take it. They want to remain animals, eating and sleeping, this animal life. Eat nicely, sleep nicely, have sex life nicely, defend nicely, that's all. Nicely, according to the standard of the body. Here in America, to have a conveyance nicely like a car like this, but in Indian village, a bullock cart is nicely. So this nicely and that nicely, according to the body. You have got this American body, this is nicely. He has got Indian body, that is nicely. But the feeling of niceness is there and here. We are having sex in a very nice apartment, decorated and so on, so on, and a dog is having sex on the street. But the pleasure of sex life is both the same. But we are thinking this is nice. But that is not the fact. The niceness, the feelings of niceness, is there and here. Vipina: And so much suffering. *Prabhupāda: Simply you have to take so much trouble. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja's instruction. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha*-yogena dehinām. The sense gratification, the standard of sense gratification, is deha-yogena dehinām, according to the body. The pig is eating very nicely stool because he has got a body like that. A human being will not take that. But the pleasure of eating, either stool or rasagullā, the same. Rūpānuga: You gave the example of a gold pot and an iron pot and a diamond pot. A diamond pot was a demigod, and the gold pot was a human being, and the iron pot the animal. But they are thinking that the food is more palatable in a different pot. But it is still the same food. *Prabhupāda: But they are simply interested with the pots. External. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye... [SB 7.5.31]. They are thinking by changing the pot the advancement of civilization will increase. And that is going on. Just like America. You have got very big, big roads, nice cars, everything. You are changing the pot, but the eatable is the same. Vipina: I heard a nice example given the other day about how living entities are suffering. A black widow, male and female black widow spiders, have sex life. After the sex life the female spider consumes the male spider, eats him alive. Prabhupāda: What's that? Spider. Vipina: Black widow. She will eat him after sex, kill him. Prabhupāda: (laughs) So we are also killing by and by, and she kills immediately. That is the difference. Vipina: Yes, little by little. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Tulasī dāsa has said that. Din kā dakinī rāt kā bāghinī pālak pālak rahu cuse, duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhagilipu sei.(?) That there is an animal who is at daytime a witch and at nighttime she's tigress. So her only business is to suck the blood. But people are so mad that everyone keeping that tigress. Duniya sab bo rakhe gara gara bhagini.(?) Every home, there is a tigress like that. Hari-śauri: That's their wife. Rūpānuga: Their best friend. Prabhupāda: (laughs) At daytime, witch, and nighttime, tigress. This is her picture. But people know it, and still, they keep one tigress at home. Duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhag(?)... So that lady spider and lord spider, that is everywhere. But here gradually, and they are immediately. That is the difference. The process is the same. People want to enjoy by sex, by seminal discharge, but what is this? His blood. By fifteen drops of blood, or something like that, one drop of semina is created. Rūpānuga: Forty drops of blood, one drop of semina. *Prabhupāda: Forty drops. Yes. So one ounce of semina discharge means forty ounce of blood sucked. This is a fact. So he is enjoying his own blood, and he's thinking "I am enjoying." Therefore he's compared with the camel. Śva*-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. Camel eats the thorny twigs, and the thorns pricks the tongue and blood comes out. So after twig is mixed with blood, it becomes tasteful, and he thinks thorn is very nice. (laughs) So thorn is not nice; nice is his blood, own blood. But he, because he's animal, he's thinking it is very nice. Vipina: So many people that run their life that way, they realize that "This woman is not making me happy, she's making me work and I'm miserable and I don't like it," but they keep on. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore he's described as mad, bhora. Bhora means mad. Duniya sab bhoraho ke gare gare bhagini.(?) Vipina: We're almost there, Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: In the heavenly planets the woman is described that during summer they are very warm, the body is very warm, er, during summer the body is very cool of the woman, and during winter the body is very warm. That is the nature of the woman in the heavenly planets. And their breast is very, very tight and strongly built. And their youthfulness never diminishes. These are the description of the heavenly woman. Bhāgavata everything is there. Mohinī*-mūrti began to play on the balls, and the description of the breast is there and, what is called this portion? Hari-śauri: Armpit. Prabhupāda: Armpit. Yes. So she was playing ball one hand and one hand a bunch of hair would become, immediately she was taking care. So with this beauty Lord Śiva become mad. As soon as one man sees the breast and this armpit of young woman, then he is finished. (laughs) Vipina: So what happens to us? Prabhupāda: It is every man that this is the position. This is the position. And so long we will be charmed with these things, he has to take birth again and again. Viṣayināṁ saṁdarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca. Vipina: This is the property, Prabhupāda. Excuse me. This is your home, and the devotees are here for you. (inside) Hari-śauri: I can lock it now if you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Vṛṣākapi: Would you like some warm milk, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. Rūpānuga: This is for your servants. Push the button, they hear in the back. Vipina: Cold water for you too, Prabhupāda. Cold water here if you want some. Prabhupāda: Cold water. Hari-śauri: They are bringing some hot milk, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Vipina: Also something interesting about this water, Prabhupāda. It's all natural spring water, it's not city water. Underground water, fresh water. Rūpānuga: It's quiet here. Prabhupāda: Nice. Vṛṣākapi: There's a swimming pool here, Prabhupāda. You have a garden by the pool; you can take your massage there. Prabhupāda: This is your own house? What you have paid for it? *Rūpānuga: Well, now we are leasing with option to buy. We have ten*-year lease, we can purchase anytime before ten years. Prabhupāda: Price is fixed? Rūpānuga: Six hundred fifty thousand. But all money paid for rent goes toward purchase. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Rūpānuga: How much a month? *Vipina: Right around now, it's about twenty*-five hundred, and it will average that for ten years. At the end of ten years, it will drop to like twenty-two, twenty-one, which is..., it will be worth much more in ten years. It's very good. And he also is responsible, the owner is responsible for any major malfunctions in any equipment on the property. We just had your water pump replaced for six hundred dollars, and he had to pay because of our contract. Rūpānuga: It is an exceptional arrangement. Vṛṣākapi: No interest. Prabhupāda: How many rooms? Vṛṣākapi: Several buildings, Prabhupāda. We have one big temple building down there, very gorgeous, with big kitchen. Prabhupāda: I may see now? Rūpānuga: If you like. Prabhupāda: Or it is closed. Rūpānuga: Deities are resting. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Rūpānuga: In the morning I think it would be better to see things. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vṛṣākapi: We can walk on the property. Prabhupāda: Morning walk. Rūpānuga: Jaya. Vipina: The kitchen is governmentally approved, so that if we decide to have a big festival, we can cook and distribute publicly without any problems. Prabhupāda: These furnitures were there? Rūpānuga: No, this is all we have purchased. Vṛṣākapi: For you, Prabhupāda. Rūpānuga: The doors also, lights, everything we have purchased. Prabhupāda: Oh. You had to utilize so much money. Rūpānuga: But this is Washington, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Everything, this neighborhood is one of the most wealthy neighborhoods in the country. It is very big. We did not think we would be able to get in so easy. But now people are appreciating how we have fixed up the property. So they have accepted us into the community, but it is very wealthy. You will see some of the houses. Prabhupāda: They have seen our books? Rūpānuga: I don't know. Have you made some...? Well, basically we've been just getting them used to us. We have not approached them so much, because we've only been here a short time. How long have we been here altogether? Vṛṣākapi: Four months. Rūpānuga: In four months, they have transformed this. Prabhupāda: That's good. This wooden wall was there? Vipina: Yes. We refinished them. Vṛṣākapi: It was all dirty. Prabhupāda: It was not used. Rūpānuga: It was simply for office, like that. And the temple building was a gymnasium. It used to be a gymnasium, and we have converted the whole thing. Vipina: That was one reason that we were very much attracted to the property. The property itself was not very beautiful when we came, but the gym was built, and we saw it as an immediate temple where we could hold kīrtana and preach. So we then made a contract and the fish bit. Prabhupāda: Nobody was taking. Vipina: No one was taking it. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Our Detroit property is like that. Rūpānuga: White elephant. Prabhupāda: Nobody was taking, but it was quite suitable for us. And that is the finest property. You have seen it? Rūpānuga: I have not been there. I have seen photographs. Vṛṣākapi: I have seen it. Prabhupāda: Is it not? Vṛṣākapi: It is the finest, the finest. Prabhupāda: And we have got very cheap. One room will cost three hundred thousand, it is so costly. They said they spend about two millions dollars fifty years ago. Vipina: Fifty years ago. That's ten, twenty million now. Prabhupāda: But nobody was taking. Narottama: Hot milk. And there is fruit, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is fruit also. Prabhupāda: Come on. Jaya. (pause) You take. That's all. What is this? Devotee: Kiwi from New Zealand. (Prabhupāda is eating during the conversation) Vipina: Those are Narottama's rasagullās over there. Narottama's rasagullā. Hari-śauri: He's learned how to make Indian sweets very expertly. He was making them in Detroit. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Where he is going now? Hari-śauri: Ready to arrange the luggage. Vipina: This is real prasādam distribution. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Vipina: Those are melons, Prabhupāda. Watermelons, sweet melons, they are the best. Prabhupāda: I take America as my fatherland. India is motherland, and here is fatherland. (laughs) So many fathers. My father was very affectionate to me. He would do everything for me. I lost one father, I have got so many fathers. Vipina: Jaya. We'd like to keep it that way, Prabhupāda. If you'd let us, we'd like to keep it that way. Vṛṣākapi: We want to take care of you forever, Prabhupāda. Vipina: What do you say, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That, everyone appreciated that in India, that the American fathers keeping him. Just like keeping him in cotton. (laughs) They admit that. Where is salt? There are many flies here? Vipina: Not many, and we have screens also in the windows, so there shouldn't be too much disturbance from them. Prabhupāda: Fruits are so nice. Kṛṣṇa has given fruit. They are locally grown? Vṛṣākapi: No, Prabhupāda. Not too many. They all come from other parts of the country. Prabhupāda: Your country? Vṛṣākapi: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Not outside. Not like England, they have to import from... This is a very good example. Just like salt, we require. A little salt will increase the taste. But because it is absolutely necessary for eating, salt-everyone eats salt, nobody can avoid salt*-it does not mean I shall eat too much. If I take this whole salt pot and put into..., "It is very good," that is foolishness. Similarly, sense gratification, so long we have got this material body, we require little. But because it is tasty, let us take it, whole pot, that is mistake. This is going on. This foolishness is going on. Sex life is good; *simply take sex life, go on and spoil your whole life. That is going on. If everything is accepted in regulative principle, little salt, that's all, that's very nice. But as soon as you think "It is very nice. Let me take simply this," then it is spoiled. That is wanted. We don't reject anything but accept in a regular way. Flesh eaters? All right, you want flesh? "No, I want flesh, but I want this big cow." Why not less important animals? There are so many other animals. The goats are there, the lambs are there, the hogs are there. Take them. Why Kṛṣṇa says go*-rakṣya? It is a very important animal. It will give you brain substance, this rasagullā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya. But this rascal has no knowledge. The cows give us milk, very nutritious. "Oh, eat the whole cow. Then all nutrition will come." This is their intelligence. Rubbish civilization. Why Kṛṣṇa has recommended go-rakṣya? He never said that other animal. If you are fond of eating flesh, you take other animals, not the cow. Give protection, take milk from it, and prepare nice preparations, that will be good for brain, for your mind. Apart from... There is no question of religious sentiment. From practical. Rūpānuga: Just the medical point of view, it is right. Prabhupāda: You see. But they are so fools, rascals, they'll not accept it. And they'll give example, "Christ ate fish" somewhere; therefore we have to maintain the slaughterhouse. Because Christ ate fish, therefore we have to maintain slaughterhouse. Give the dog a bad name and hang it. Huh? This is going on. So we have to make vigorous propaganda for all this foolishness. Mūḍho nābhijānāti loko mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. So we are giving the best civilization, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. With little patience and perseverance you work on it, people will take it. Because there is nothing adulteration; it is pure. Rest assured, if you follow the principles and push on according to the prescription I have given, it will be accepted. May take some time. Rūpānuga: But they will appreciate the purity. Prabhupāda: It is pure. Actually, these fruits and some milk preparation are sufficient. You don't require any flesh. Is the flesh comparable with this nice fruit? (pause) Come on. Sit down. Devotee: Is there one for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, I am not so fool that I shall give everything. (laughter) (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 2, 1976, New Vrindaban Prabhupāda: This is also inhabitable. Where you are going? Take it in writing. *Hari-śauri: Now they are putting out the same kind of propaganda about Mars that formerly they were putting out about the moon*-that there may be life-so that they can use that as an excuse to go. I just read a little bit where they say that due to information sent back by the last spaceship that they sent to Mars, now they think that there's more water vapor in the atmosphere than they at first thought. So that means that there's a good possibility that there may be some bacterial life on Mars. So (laughs) they don't... And then they state that the temperature ranges from-130 to +40 degrees farenheit. So that means that there could be life there in a bacterial form. Prabhupāda: And why there is no life in moon planet? Some scientists say the temperature is two hundred degrees less than the zero. Hari-śauri: Yes, at night when they said, because there's no atmosphere. Prabhupāda: But why these rascals say it is full of dust, and how from the dust so much light is coming, illuminating the whole universe? What is their logic? They have already brought the dust. That dust does not illuminate. Hari-śauri: Well, they say just like when the sunlight hits the earth, then the earth appears very bright from outer space. It appears very illuminating. Prabhupāda: Who says? Hari-śauri: This is the scientists' excuse. They showed some pictures taken from outer space that shows the earth glowing very brightly, like the moon. So they say in the same way when the... Prabhupāda: Why the glow of the surface of the earth does not illuminate? It does not come between illumination? Hari-śauri: Just like when the sun is here everything is bright. Prabhupāda: That's all right, when the sun is there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The moon is actually illuminating. Prabhupāda: Why it does not illuminate? Hari-śauri: They only say it reflects the sunlight. Prabhupāda: Kick their face with shoes. That is the only reward for them. And foolish persons accepting. Just like sun is illuminating. It doesn't require illumination from any other planet. Similarly, if earth is also illuminating, why does it require moonlight in darkness? This common sense does not come into the brain of these rascals who believe that? Hari-śauri: They put their scientific reasoning to explain the different things. Prabhupāda: What is their scientific reasoning? Talking like fools and rascals? If something is illuminating, why extra illumination required to illuminate. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Their theory is that there's a dark side of the moon that we've never seen. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Their theory is that there's a dark..., that actually the moon is reflecting the sun's light. So there's a dark side of the moon. Prabhupāda: So far the world is, where is the dark side and the bright side? If you compare like that, then so far this globe is concerned, which one is dark side, which one is bright side? Hari-śauri: No, they say the earth is spinning on its own axis, so all parts of the earth at one time or another receive sunlight. Prabhupāda: The moon does not do that? Hari-śauri: The moon does not revolve on its own axis. Prabhupāda: Another foolishness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just to fit their speculation. Prabhupāda: Just see. Simply speculation and misleading people. Hari-śauri: There's no basis for it, there's no truth to it at all. (laughs) Prabhupāda: And you people believed that? I'm surprised. (laughter) You are also fools and rascals. Hari-śauri: This is what they teach in all the schools. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have little models, Śrīla Prabhupāda, made out of plastic. Prabhupāda: Ah, they are... Let them, we take them as rascals, that's all. Mūḍha. Hari-śauri: That other argument that you use about how the moon rays give life to the vegetables... So how is it that there's no life on the moon? If the rays from the moon give life, then how is it there's no life where the rays come from? Prabhupāda: They have never gone to moon. (laughs) All bogus. And this Mars expedition will be a failure. Let them spend millions of dollars. I told about moon planet ten years ago. It is childish, simply a waste of money and energy. I told this. Now it has proved. Hari-śauri: There's no more interest in the moon at all. *Prabhupāda: No? Kīrtanānanda said "It is inhabitable." Ten years ago I said there's no use going there. It is childish, waste of money. But who hears about us? We know moon planet is inhabited by high*-class living entities. (laughs) (sarcastically:) And they will allow these rascals to go by their machine. *Hari-śauri: When they originally started sending sputniks to the moon, they couldn't even land them properly. They would crash, they said that they were crash*-landing spaceships into the moon's surface. Prabhupāda: Crashed? *Hari-śauri: Crash*-landing. The spaceship was supposed to just smash into the surface of the moon, like that. Prabhupāda: They have never gone. Simply propaganda. Even they have gone, what is the result? Simply with big report that it is inhabitable. (Prabhupāda is eating something:) What is this fiber? Finding? What are other things are there in the... Hmm? What is this? (Hari-śauri laughs) Hmm? Do they add anything more? Something reddish there? Hari-śauri: Sometimes there's a few bugs in it. (laughs) There's some..., it's probably some strands from the mango, fiber from the mango. Prabhupāda: Do they add mango? Hari-śauri: Yes, sometimes they put different fruits in it. Pradyumna: Little oranges in there. You can put orange? Hari-śauri: Strawberry and mango and this and that. They make it with some kind of ice cream machine. Prabhupāda: Hmm? This is not from machine? Hari-śauri: No, this is from machine. Pradyumna: You first made ice cream in New York, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Someone told me that in 26 Second Avenue, did you make..., you made them ice cream when it was very hot? Prabhupāda: Hot? Pradyumna: It was hot, no, the weather was hot, so you made. Prabhupāda: No, you can make ice cream in this, what is called, refrigerator. You can make. Hari-śauri: Just make thick cream and put it in the fridge. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Ice" cream. Prabhupāda: (Prabhupāda speaks some gibberish). Big, big words. Pradyumna: They put everything in language. Then everyone is fooled. No one knows... Hari-śauri: Speak as many big words as possible and don't make any point at all, and then everybody will proclaim. Prabhupāda: So gradually they'll go up to Saturn? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If the money holds out. Actually, they've already sent some exploring rocketships way out to Saturn years ago. Hari-śauri: Takes several years to reach. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's such a bluff. Hari-śauri: How long does it take them to go to Mars? Pradyumna: Mars and Venus also, they say. Hari-śauri: Venus is the other one they concentrate... They think that Venus, there's a good chance there may be some life there. Pradyumna: Venus is covered by clouds. So no one can see what is there. There's clouds all around the planet. Heavy, what do they call, so that no one can see. So they sent a rocket inside or something to go through the clouds to see what is there. Russians also tried. Fermament. In the Bible, they say that on earth there was also..., above the earth there were all clouds at one time according to the Bible. And then at that time men used to live very, very long, and then the clouds went away at some point. They call it a firmament. So the same thing is on Venus. No one can see what the planet is like, no one has ever known. That is also a heavenly, we say also... That is Śukrācārya's place? Prabhupāda: Not Śukrācārya's, just Śukra. Pradyumna: Just Śukra. Prabhupāda: May be Śukrācārya's place. What benefit they will have? Nothing. This is science. Without any aim, without any objective. Hari-śauri: What they're doing is entirely pointless. There's no proper reason for any of it. Because they aren't improving their actual living standards by it. They are... It's just like a jñāni, he thinks advancement of knowledge, just to simply acquire any amount of knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Kevala*-bodha-labdhaye. They are described: Kliśyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Simply works hard simply to know things. No benefit. These rascals are like that. Kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Hari-śauri: That's the futility of the university system now. They are going and they're accumulating knowledge which is worthless for living. It has no practical value, so all the youth are becoming very frustrated. *Prabhupāda: Any sane man will be frustrated. Why you are spending money and going there? Kevala*-bodha-labdhaya, kliśyanti kevala, bhaktim.... Kliśyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye teṣām asau kleśala eva śiṣyate nānyad yathā sthūla-tuṣāvaghātinām. Just like the husk... The outer portion of rice? If there is rice, you husk, beat it, rice will come. The rice is not there, simply husk, what is the use of this beating? It is like that. Rice will not come, simply they are trying to beat it. So the result is they become tired, that's all. They only result is they'll become tired. Kleśala eva śiṣyate, that's all. The result of hard labor is tiresome. So they'll get that only, that's all. They are satisfied, "Now we are tiresome, let us sleep." What you have gotten? "Dust." That's all. This is the philosophy. Bhaktim, what is that verse? Pradyumna: Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]? Prabhupāda: Huh? That's not it. Kleśala, kleśala. Pradyumna: Kleśadikataras, kleśa? *Prabhupāda: Kliśyanti ye kevala*-bodha-labdhaye teṣām asau kleśala eva śiṣyate nānyad yathā sthūla-tuṣāvaghātinām. Hari-śauri: It's from the Bhāgavatam? *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is mentioned in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Any process you accept, rejecting devotional service, the result will be that there is no profit. You simply labor for nothing, as much as to beat the husk, you'll never get the rice, you will simply be tiresome, that's all. Just like so-called religion. There is no faith in God. There is no need of God, and "religion." This is nonsense. Religion means without God? This is going on. God, you can accept anyone, Ramakrishna Mission. Any rascal...He was a fool, illiterate rascal, Ramakrishna. He became God. No standard, and they are propagating Ramakrishna Mission. As we are preaching Kṛṣṇa is God, they are preaching Ramakrishna. And who's accepting them? For the last hundred years, they are preaching. So who has become a devotee of Ramakrishna? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's absurd to even think about becoming a devotee of Ramakrishna. *Prabhupāda: You have got Caitanya*-caritāmṛta? Pradyumna: I think it is Tenth Canto. Śreyaḥ śrutiṁ bhaktim? I've been making a list of all the verses that you quote most. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: There is note? Pradyumna: Bhaktiṁ vinā jñānaṁ tu naiva siddhyed ity aha (indistinct) śreyaḥ śrutim iti; *śreyasam abhyudayāpavarga*-lakṣanānaṁ sṛtiḥ śaraṇaṁ, yasyaḥ sarasa iva nirjharanam, taṁ te tava bhaktim udasya tyaktvā śreyasaṁ mārga-bhūtam iti vā; *teṣāṁ kleśalaḥ kleśa evāvaśiṣyate. Ayaṁ bhavān (indistinct) yathā alpapramāṇam dhanyaṁ parityajya antaḥ (indistinct) kanahinaṁ sthula*-dhanyabhasams tusaneva (indistinct) vaghnanti, teṣāṁ na kiñcit phalaṁ, evaṁ bhaktiṁ tucchi-kṛtya ye kevala-bodhaya prayatante, teṣām apiti. Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply tiresome, that's all. Religion, no God. There are so many religions. Hari-śauri: Soon as they forget the actual religion then there are so many concoctions. Prabhupāda: "This is our religion." What is religion? "No God." What is religion? Then, those who are godless, they have got religion. Atheism has got religion. Then why bring this religion? What is the meaning of religion? Just see. Pradyumna: One time we went to a church in Boston to speak. They had only a pulpit for the preacher, and behind, no altar, no crucifix, nothing, just big map of outer space with planets on the wall. Not even any Christian church, but no cross, nothing. Only universe. Universalist Church, it's called. The Universalists. Prabhupāda: That's nice, but give some information of the universe. Hari-śauri: Says, "Religion: 1. monastic condition, being a monk or a nun, enter into a monastic order; 2. practice of sacred rites; 3. one of the prevalent systems of faith and worship, i.e. Christian, Muhammadan, etc.; 4. human recognition of superhuman controlling power and especially of a personal God entitled to obedience, effect of such recognition on conduct and mental attitude." Prabhupāda: This is religion. Personal conception of God. Hari-śauri: And then "5. action that one is bound to do." Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is there. Any one of them you take. That's good idea, but special conception of personal God, huh? What is that? Hari-śauri: "Human recognition of superhuman controlling power and especially of a personal God entitled to obedience." Prabhupāda: That's all, clear. What are the other items? Hari-śauri: Then, "the effect of such recognition on conduct and mental attitude." And then "action that one is bound to do." Prabhupāda: One is bound to do. Dharmena hina paśubhiḥ samana. If he does not do, then he's animal. It must be done. There is no question of optional. If you are human being, you must be religious, you must recognize the supreme controller. Otherwise, you are animal. What is the other interpretations? Beginning one? Hari-śauri: "Monastic condition, being a monk or a nun." Prabhupāda: Just like every religion has got some condition, monastic, is it not? Hari-śauri: Yes, every religion has a system of priests. Prabhupāda: (Coughs severely for a few minutes) Monastic condition? Hari-śauri: "Practice of sacred rites." *Prabhupāda: So, without reference to God, what is the meaning of sacred rites? Everything is reference that accepting the supreme controller. That is the real meaning. At least, Christian religion accepts God, Muhammadan religion accepts God, or Hindu religion accepts God. So without God, how it can be religion? If there is no understanding of God, the conclusion comes that there is no religion. Fictitious. "We trust in God," but do not know what is God. This is going on. So we have to fight against all this nonsense. Nonsense scientists, nonsense religionists. What do you think? It is not easy*-going, sleeping business. We have to fight with so many demons. Otherwise, kava dava adakanam (?), my Guru Mahārāja used to say. Beg some rice and bring it and cook it and eat and sleep. Pradyumna: Kava daka? Prabhupāda: Kava dava adakanam. As all our Godbrothers are doing. They have got a little temple, and a few devotees go and beg rice and cook it and eat and sleep, that's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like being dead almost. *Prabhupāda: No fighting spirit. Ṭhākura dekhiya (indistinct). Just make a Deity, show. Our Tīrtha Mahārāja is doing that. His whole idea was, that "I have now captured the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu by high*-court favor. Now I have got everything. People will come and they'll pay something, and that will be my income for my family." As the caste gosvāmīs do in Navadvīpa and other... A means of livelihood. He has no devotion. He wanted as a means of income. Like the Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs, Navadvīpa gosvāmīs do. Little devotion, automatically, there is. They are, after all, worshiping the Deity. But their purpose is different. Just like we have established Rādhā-Vṛndāvanacandra not that people will come and pay something. Who will come here, in this foreign country or in this secluded place? So our aim is to make the devotees real devotees. Not for earning money. When we establish a center in a place like this, where is the idea of getting money? (laughs) Who will come here? One, it is a foreign country, nobody knows what is Kṛṣṇa. And one has to come with so great difficulty, on the mountain. And who is coming to pay for it? After spending so much money, they will come here to pay? Our process is that wherever we stay, we worship Kṛṣṇa. As far as possible. That we are doing. Not for earning money but spending money. Now Tīrtha Mahārāja is seeing that without getting Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthsite, Swami Mahārāja, he is attracting lakhs of people. Without the favor of high-court, he is attracting. That is his envy. This year, you were not present? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At Māyāpura? Prabhupāda: Oh, you were present? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. There was always... Hari-śauri: That leaflet that he put out that we saw, he put one leaflet advertising that... Prabhupāda: No, no. Apart from that leaflet... Let him do whatever nonsense... But actually, on the birthday of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, there was the greatest crowd in our temple. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, there was a constant... It was just always packed. Pradyumna: Every year, before, last year, year before, year before, Caitanya Math, only, not... Prabhupāda: Nobody goes. Pradyumna: No, only their Math people, and some people they invite from Calcutta. But the regular people all come in to our place. Prabhupāda: Sometimes we went to Mādhava Mahārāja's temple? Hari-śauri: In Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana. Who was there? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Empty. Completely no one. Hari-śauri: They didn't even have any of their own men living there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They had to unlock the Deity. Prabhupāda: And that is on the prominent roadside. And our temple is off. Still, so many people are coming. Neither there were inhabitants nor their outsider, visitors. Gate was closed, we had to open and then enter. And he constructed temple at least for the last twenty years. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have no vision of expanding, except maybe their... *Prabhupāda: They make this money*-making machine. They do not know the money will automatically come you are sincere. You haven't got to make it a machine. Money Kṛṣṇa will send. But they have no faith in Kṛṣṇa. They have faith in their own ability. "Yes, we shall earn money in this way, by showing the Deity." They don't recognize Kṛṣṇa's everything. They think "By high-court judgement, if we capture this place, then money will come." Hari-śauri: Practically speaking, they're finished. They're on their last legs. Prabhupāda: Similarly, other svāmīs and yogis they are finding that this Bhaktivedanta Svami alone is preaching all over the... "We, combined, we could not do anything." Pradyumna: They are all wondering what your secret is. They always wonder, they cannot understand. Prabhupāda: All the yogis, svāmīs are there. How it is possible? The Ramakrishna Mission, they are working here for the last hundred years. What they have done? If they had actually preached something, so so many American boys and gentlemen are coming to our temple, we cannot give them place. We have to find out some other, and who is going to the Ramakrishna temple? Pradyumna: They have empty house. Prabhupāda: If actually Vivekananda preached something, out of inquisitiveness they would have gone there. So "We have heard so much about Ramakrishna and Vivekananda. Let us see what is there." Nobody goes. They do not know even the name. And we are already advertised all over the world, Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement. At least, everyone knows. Who knows Ramakrishna, Vivekananda? *This is Brahma*-stotra? *Pradyumna: Yes, Fourteenth Adhyāya. From brahmovaca, brahma*-stuti. Prabhupāda: Just stick to this principle, then you will be successful. Bhakti śreyaḥ śrutim. That is the real welfare. Śreyaḥ śrutim means "expands auspicity." (apparently talking about a picture) And they want to become one with God. And here is not one, but God is so lower that He carries the shoe of His devotee. Have they got any conception like this? (laughs) Hari-śauri: They are always talking about... Prabhupāda: There is a verse śruti mahāpure śruti mahāpure. You know this? Pradyumna: Śruti apare? Prabhupāda: Śruti mahāpure. (indistinct) yasya linde paraṁ brahma. "Let others worship the śrutis and others smṛtis, all these Vedic literature, and others *Mahābhārata* for liberation. But I shall worship Nanda Mahārāja, because in his courtyard the Param Brahmā is loitering. I shall worship Nanda Mahārāja. He's so powerful that he's made the Param Brahman come here and carry his shoes." Śruti mahāpure (indistinct) yasya linde paraṁ brahma. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was by a Muslim who became Vaiṣṇava? Once you quoted that, I think that verse, in London. *Prabhupāda: That is another similar verse. Yes, you quoted me. And there is another verse by Bilvamaṅgala, in Kṛṣṇa*-karṇāmṛta. The Muslim, he said "I was searching after the Param Brahma, and now I see here He is playing with the gopīs." What they will speculate? Everything is there in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Where this picture is given? (Prabhupāda is being massaged) Pradyumna: Which book is it in? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It was on the cover of one Back to Godhead magazine. Hari-śauri: But it's in one of the books. Pradyumna: Lord Caitanya did the same thing. He did the same thing, and it was compared Kṛṣṇa also had done. Prabhupāda: If there is no such acceptance, where is religion? Hari-śauri: It just becomes a show. Religion nowadays has degenerated so that people more or less accept it just as some moral code now, because there's no knowledge of God. Prabhupāda: So where is that morality? Hari-śauri: (laughs) There's no morality either. *Prabhupāda: While hunting, drinking, meat*-eating, is that morality? Hari-śauri: No. (end) *Morning Walk-*-July 3, 1976, Washington, D.C. Prabhupāda: What is that building? Vṛṣākapi: This is the neighborhood. It is a very rich neighborhood, Prabhupāda. Very wealthy. This is the most wealthy neighborhood, practically all of America. The builders are putting up houses all in here just like that house over there. Prabhupāda: Oh, bungalow type (?). Very good. This is very nice. Is it not? Very nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very peaceful. Vṛṣākapi: Many senators and congressmen, they live out here. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They ever come to the Sunday feast? Vṛṣākapi: Some do. One man does. We've been here a short time, only four months. So we have to advertise more so people will come on the Sunday feast. But I think we will have thousands. Prabhupāda: That is nice. [break] ...trees very long? Vṛṣākapi: Just pine trees and oak trees. No fruit trees. [break] He was run over by a car, he was intoxicated. Prabhupāda: Then? What happened, he was not identified? Vṛṣākapi: They said that he lived in these woods back here, way back in the woods. Prabhupāda: Oh, drunkard. Vṛṣākapi: Yes. They had many cars here all day for two days. All the police, ambulance, TV. Prabhupāda: To take photograph? Vṛṣākapi: To take photograph of the place. It became a monument. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Just to see a dead body. Vṛṣākapi: Yes. Hari-śauri: Crows. (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 3, 1976, Washington, D.C. (Prabhupāda is eating.) *Vṛṣākapi: ...Deities we have ordered. They will be arriving in two months. Also we have Prabhupāda*-Bhaktisiddhānta deities. They will be coming also. We will be the first in America to have Prabhupāda, Bhaktisiddhānta and Sītā-Rāma. Prabhupāda: Here? Vṛṣākapi: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Very good. This rasagullā is nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not as good as Keśī dāsa. Prabhupāda: They make it like Keśī dāsa in New Vrindaban. (long pause) Water. Vṛṣākapi: Here, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...to purchase it? And he has to sell to us. Nobody will purchase. Rūpānuga: No. And we have the option secured with a deposit. Otherwise, we would not spend so much money. Prabhupāda: Now, as soon as possible, you purchase. Six hundred thousand? *Rūpānuga: Six*-fifty. Vṛṣākapi: We have purchased. In effect, we have already purchased, Prabhupāda. It is ours. Rūpānuga: It is just that we have ten years to get more money. Vṛṣākapi: : It's cheaper to make the payments than to try and buy. Prabhupāda: But Rāmeśvara has not agreed to pay? Rūpānuga: No, we do not have to get money from BBT this way. This way we do not have to take loan. It is good, because BBT does not have that much money. Prabhupāda: No, we need, we supply money to India. Depend on Kṛṣṇa; Kṛṣṇa will supply. Vipina: Jaya. That happened just about less than a month ago. Some gentleman who was a Seventh Day Adventist, he became interested and started to call and come by and listened to the philosophy and even listened to your tapes. And then shortly after that he gave a donation of five thousand dollars. We bought with it some chandeliers for Kṛṣṇa's temple for you to see tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Five thousand dollars? Vipina: Yes. Prabhupāda: Don't misspend. Vipina: Not all on chandeliers. Just part of it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You have a bell system? Rūpānuga: Yes, it rings, but you can't hear it in here. It rings in the back quarters. Prabhupāda: The doors you have purchased? Rūpānuga: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is costly? Devotee: Yes. Rūpānuga: The other doors were not..., they could not even be locked nicely. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Vipina: We got matching doors all the way through your quarters. Vṛṣākapi: We are hoping if you like it, you will stay here, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I want to stay, but... Rūpānuga: ...cannot. (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:) On the other side, it works. This Washington temple actually is one of your oldest centers, but this is the first time you have been able to come when facilities were proper. Prabhupāda: Indians are coming? Rūpānuga: Yes. Prabhupāda: They come on the Love Feast? Rūpānuga: They come to the Sunday feast. Vipina: They are starting to come more now. With the changes we made in the temple, and they are being very much impressed that we are doing nicely, and they want to become a part. Prabhupāda: I heard that Ambassador, you have made some engagement? Vipina: Prabhupāda, he, I got a call from his secretary, and I've been working on it and I've been to his house once. He has a very nice stately house. He had requested that maybe you could come there to his home, and your servant and Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa were thinking it might be hard for you to travel there. So we're trying to convince him to come here. Prabhupāda: Ah. There is no question of insisting. They cannot help us in any way. Vipina: No, not at all. Prabhupāda: I have tried all these. They are useless. Vṛṣākapi: We have written all the Parliament and we have asked them to come, but they are too busy. Prabhupāda: So you go and take rest. Devotees: Jaya. Haribol. Prabhupāda: There is much time difference from...? *Devotees: Same time. It is ten*-thirty now. Prabhupāda: No, New Vrindaban and...? Devotees: Same time, New Vrindaban. Rūpānuga: Should I close this, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I'm going to the bedroom. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like a fan that doesn't make so much noise perhaps? Prabhupāda: May be required. (end) *"Life Comes From Life"Slideshow Discussions-*-July 3, 1976, Washington, D.C. Prabhupāda: Some talking? There is no talking? This slide's without talking? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, we will make little... We are just testing. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hari-śauri: I've got a torch, flashlight. (whispering and movement going on) Prabhupāda: You can cover it with some cloth. Take that cloth. Hari-śauri: Use that cādara on the back of the rocking chair. Prabhupāda: Cādara will be too heavy. Here, take this. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now most of these slides will appear in our book, the origin of life and matter, Life Comes From Life. Now Sadāpūta and myself made these slides. These are some of the... Only a few slides. We specifically want comments from your Divine Grace Śrīla Prabhupāda, whether these slides will be appropriate to be in the book. Now this is the philosophy between the difference between life and matter. So this is sāṅkhya philosophy. The principles and the philosophy, as Śrīla Prabhupāda comments in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam in the Third Canto, the sāṅkhya philosophy is especially meant for persons who are conditioned by this material world, and by understanding the science of devotional service and sāṅkhya philosophy, one can become free from the modes of material nature. So we want to impose that in order to understand the distinction between life and matter, one must at least have a glimpse of the Absolute Truth, at least some idea of the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, it is completely impossible to understand the difference between what is life and what is matter. That is why scientists nowadays are so much confused about the concept of life and matter. So in fact the scientist Orgell, in his book The Origin of Life, he starts with saying "What is life? The question 'What is life?' should not be inquired." He says... *Prabhupāda: One minute. That Absolute Truth is explained in the Vedānta*-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Absolute Truth is that from whom everything comes into existence, everything emanates. Now that has been discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, because Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the natural commentary by the same author. So he begins janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ [SB 1.1.1]. This word is used. He's not dead body, dead matter-abhijñaḥ, like that. In the beginning. That source of everything... Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Just like a mother gives birth to a child. She knows everything, how the child was born in the womb, how it developed, how it is coming. At least, on the whole, she knows everything. Similarly, the original source of everything is immediately informed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that abhijñaḥ, experienced, knows everything. Anvayād itarataś ca, directly and indirectly, everything it knows. So the origin of everything cannot be a dead man. That is the beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the scientists, since they do not know the Absolute Truth, they say such fundamental and most important questions, "What is life," should not be asked, say it is very unscientific. That is their verdict. But we say no, that shouldn't be the case. We say what is life should be inquired and it should be understood. Otherwise, how can one study the origin without knowing what it is? It is rather meaningless to study the origin of something which is not known. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we say, yes, the fundamental and basic requirement is to understand this basic difference between the two principles, life and matter. Now here the Absolute Truth, in the śloka, The translation says, "My dear respectful mother, I have already described the path of understanding the Absolute Truth by which one can come to understand the real truth of matter and spirit and their relationship." So here it clearly says that in order to understand these basic principles, one must have at least some idea about the Absolute Truth. And it is quite scientific. Comparing our normal scientific disciplines like physics, chemistry and mathematics, in fact this very principle is utilized. But the scientists, not knowing that the axioms, or fundamental truths, are coming from the absolute source. So this is the basic requirement. Prabhupāda: I have heard that mathematics believes by some imaginary thing, minus, so on, like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The absolute numbers? Prabhupāda: Something minus one, like that. Who is mathematician here? Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Here is our mathematician. Prabhupāda: All right, so is that the beginning of mathematics? Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the beginning of mathematics? Sadāpūta: Well, the beginning of mathematics is counting a number. We have that square root of minus one. Prabhupāda: Yes. That I heard. The beginning is minus one. That is imaginary; it is not fact. But they imagine something at the beginning. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. In fact it is called imaginary number. Square root of minus one. Prabhupāda: Yes, if mathematics begins with imaginary something, why not Absolute Truth? That Absolute Truth must be life. As Bhāgavata explains, janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ [SB 1.1.1]. He must be aware of everything. That means life. That means life. Now the question is how He became experienced? Svarāṭ, independent. Just like we require experience, knowledge, from somebody else. Experienced knowledge is not gained automatically, but the Absolute means that He is full of knowledge. How He got knowledge? Svarāṭ, independently. That is the description. You have to imagine at least like that. It is Vedic injunction, it is the fact, that Absolute Truth independently cognizant of everything. That is Absolute Truth. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now we want to describe something about this Absolute Truth. His Divine Grace Śrīla Prabhupāda has explained that Absolute Truth is that from which everything comes: janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Now what is the Absolute Truth, and how the Absolute Truth is to be known? Now in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, Absolute Truth is described anādir ātmā puruṣo nirguṇaḥ prakṛteḥ paraḥ. The Absolute Truth or the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Supreme Soul, and He has no beginning, anādi, He has no beginning. And He is also nirguṇa, He's transcendental to the material modes of nature. And prakṛteḥ para, beyond the existence of this material world. *Prabhupāda: The same thing is explained also in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, anādir-ādi. He's anādi, He has no beginning, but He is the beginning of everything. Anādir-ādi, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. He is the beginning of everything, but He has no beginning. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: And He is puruṣa, He's a person. Now how the Absolute Truth is to be known? In Bhagavad*-gītā it is described bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. The Absolute Truth must be understood as He is only by devotional service. So... *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, it is not possible. That I explained this morning, panthās tu koṭi-śata*-vatsara-sampragamyo vāyor athāpi manaso muni-puṅgavānām, so 'pyasti yat prapada-sīmny avincintya-tattve [Bs. 5.34]. Without bhakti, if you go on speculating for many, many years with the speed of mind, if you want to go, still avincintya-tattve, it will remain inconceivable. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So what it means is that in order to understand this distinction between life and matter one must be a devotee. Prabhupāda: Yes. We raise the question, we challenge these rascals because we are following the path of devotion. We are not scientists. And we could not challenge unless we were convinced. How it is possible? Suppose I am layman, how I am challenging these big, big scientists? It is not... Because we have known it through devotional service, so this is science. That is the difference. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So these are some of the axiomatic truths that are necessary steps in order to study this problem between life and... *Prabhupāda: In Bhagavad*-gītā it is said bhaktyā mām abhijānāti: [Bg. 18.55] "One can understand Me through bhakti." And the Vedic injunction is that "If one knows Me, or knows the Absolute Truth, God, then he knows everything." Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If somehow or other one knows the Absolute Truth, then he knows everything. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. That is the benefit of knowing the Absolute Truth. So a devotee knows everything. How it is possible? That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā, *One may challenge, "How a person can know everything?" So Kṛṣṇa immediately replies that "I help him specifically." Teṣām evānukampārtham. "Just to show My personal, especial favor upon him, I light up the torch of knowledge, and he knows everything." So if Kṛṣṇa helps one to know everything, who can check it? That is not possible. This science must be there. We are not all*-powerful. Kṛṣṇa is all-powerful means He can do everything. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is also further described about this Absolute Truth as vadanti tat tattva*-vidas... [SB 1.2.11]. Prabhupāda: That is the Absolute. Go on. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now these statements are quite scientifically valid and sound. Now this will be verified in our next slide that is called the axioms. This is called structure of a theory. In scientific disciplines, specifically in mathematics, now scientists work with a beginning called axioms. There are two types of axioms. First one is logical axiom, and second one is theoretical axioms. Now from these axioms, by inference, actually one deduces these theorems. That's in the second block. From there, by observation, we have this object of study. Now the basic question is wherefrom these axioms coming from? The starting point, axioms, they take it for granted, and actually there is no proof. It is beyond proof, beyond any scientific proof. *Prabhupāda: Vedānta*-sūtra means all axiom. Vedānta-sūtra, that is all axiom. Axiomatic truth. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the way that science works, also they depend on axioms. But actually, when one analyzes this a little thoughtfully, one should come to the conclusion that actually these axioms are coming from the Absolute. So our first proposition that in order to understand life and matter one must have this, er, some knowledge of the Absolute Truth is scientifically sound. Prabhupāda: I tried to explain something in the beginning of *Īśopaniṣad*, my lecture in the Conway Hall, what is that Absolute Truth. "Introduction." I have given the example that the *Vedas* say cow dung is pure. This is axiomatic truth. Now if you analyze cow dung you'll find all the antiseptic properties are there. This is axiomatic. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now in the next slide we establish the difference between the life and matter. These are some of the basic differences between the... Prabhupāda: We can't read it. I cannot read Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: : One side it says "matter," the other side it says "life." Svarūpa Dāmodara: On the left side, it is matter; *on the right side, it is life. Now it is little different from the way that this different set*-up by biologists. This is quite unique in a sense because we all take this from the sources of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā. So the first point says that matter is the inferior energy of the Absolute Truth, and on the right column, it is the superior energy of the Absolute Truth. Now in the... *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then in the second point, under the heading of matter, it is describable to some extent by physical and chemical laws. But on the other hand, life is nonphysical and nonchemical; it is beyond matter; it is transcendental. That is the basic difference. Prabhupāda: That is explained indirectly. What are those verses? Na chindanti, na dahati. Definition by negation. It is never dried up, it is never cut into pieces, it is never moistened. Why don't you find that verse? Negative way. Physical means this can be cut into particle, pieces, but here, it cannot be cut into pieces. Your physical and chemical, you have got idea. Any physical thing can be cut into pieces. But here the negative description is given. It cannot be cut into pieces. Now we have to see what is that thing which cannot be cut into pieces. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we say nonphysical, nonchemical. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is quite right. Physical, anything physical can be cut into pieces. Read it. *Hari-śauri: This is 2.20. "For the soul there is never birth nor death, nor having once been does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever*-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (purport) "The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind. This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried." Prabhupāda: This is nonphysical. This is not physical. Physical, what is that physical thing which cannot be burned, which cannot be cut, which cannot be soaked? There is no such thing to the physical exterior. Is there anything? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: Therefore not physical. This is definition by negation. In the logic, there is a process of definition by negation. The Māyāvādīs, they define this Brahman, neti, neti, neti, neti, negation. "It is not this, it is not this." What is, that they cannot tell. They simply negate. That is a partial definition. Yes, go on. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the third point, lacks*-in matter column-lacks specific inherent complex form, and life column has a specific complex form and activity by nature. Now here we are talking about complex form. Normally the matter itself is very simple by nature, but life tends, when the living entity is in a living body, the matter itself is also very complex when it is associated with life. But matter per se is a very simple, simple structure. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can you say, though, that the soul has a complex form? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, we get information that in the spiritual world the spiritual world is full of variegatedness. It is not just one variety. It is full of varieties. So we take that as proof of the complex nature of life. Prabhupāda: We see that so long the life is there in the material body, he has got varieties of thoughts. That is the proof that life is full of varieties. As soon as the life is not there, no more varieties, only one variety, dead body, that's all, finished. And as long as the life is there, he has got so many ideas, so many arts, so many philosophies, so many... That is the proof that life is full of varieties. That is the proof. As soon as the life is off, there is no variety. So what do you want, more proof that life is full of variety. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda, in this connection, this variegatedness in connection with life, can you take it as some sort of complex structures? Prabhupāda: You can... Because we, at the present moment, we cannot understand, except physics and chemistry, we cannot understand life. So as we do not understand life, so therefore the definition by negation is there. It is not physical, not chemical. It is something beyond. But by practical experience we can see that when there is life, a living man wants varieties. That's a fact. Varieties. Otherwise, why we disagree? I have got some varieties, you have got some varieties. So the conclusion should be tested that living condition or life is full of varieties, therefore the kingdom of life, the spiritual kingdom, must be full of varieties. That is the conclusion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But in the..., from our experience, it is quite clear though that matter, as such... For example, let's take a crystal of diamond or, that will be shown later in the slide, that there are... Actually crystal of diamond is built in very simple structures. It's a hexagon, six carbon atoms, one after another, forms a very simple structure. But on the other hand, now when life is in association with matter, if we take a simple cell, the cell is composed of so many big, big molecules like proteins and DNA's and all these giant molecules. And they are wonderfully complex. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what this studying of a dead man, the molecules? When a man is dead, what is the condition of the molecules? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The molecules will deteriorate to simple molecules. It will degrade from big, big molecules to small molecules. In other words, it tends to be simple. When the living entity is out of the material body, the body itself becomes very simple. Prabhupāda: No varieties. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, no variety. Prabhupāda: That I explained. Hari-śauri: The complexity is there because the spirit soul is complex. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Rūpānuga: The characteristic here, Śrīla Prabhupāda says, is that life has specific complex form and activity by nature. So that this activity, complex activity... *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained in the Vedānta*-sūtra, axiomatic. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). By nature, ānandamaya. And variety is the mother of enjoyment. Unless... Just like these bunch of flowers... When there are varieties of flowers, it becomes a very enjoyable bunches. If you simply bring rose, although it is very valuable, it is not so enjoyable. But when there are small, insignificant leaf also, which is not valuable than the rose, but rose becomes beautiful. That is life. And who appreciates it? When a man is living. A dead man cannot appreciate this beauty. There is beauty. Combination of varieties is beauty, or blissfulness. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Next point says, in the column of matter, it says it has temporary complex forms in association with life. On the other hand, life is immutable. From Bhagavad*-gītā, it has neither beginning nor end. Now this is what actually we find when a living entity is in association with matter, now matter tends to the form, into definite specific forms. Like human body has a specific form, like that, other living entities have forms. But this is only due to in association with life. *Prabhupāda: Yes. As he desired, so he got a form. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. The form is offered by the Supreme Absolute Truth, as he desires. Just like the cloth has no form, but as the customer desires, the tailor gives a form suitable to his desire. Similarly, material world means we have got varieties. In the spiritual world also we have got varieties. Because we are originally of varieties of form, we are getting these varieties of body, being influenced by the modes of material nature. So I'm desiring that if I get such body, I can eat even stool. So God gives you, "All right, you take this body. Become a pig and eat stool." This is going on. Why? Your desiring. You eat, actually. So īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. He's friendly, He's sitting in everyone's heart, and the living entity is desiring. So bhrāmayan. Desiring means he wants to go here and there. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni [Bg. 18.61]. He gives a particular type of yantra, machine. This body is machine. Body is machine, everyone accepts. This is a machine. If we want to go to India, we ride on a machine, airplane, and go there. Similarly, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni. We want varieties of life, and God gives us a particular machine to ride on and travel, go to heaven, go to hell, become a dog, become a cat, become a demigod, become a tree. This is going on. Transmigration of the soul. God gives us a particular type of body, and we change from one machine to another. This is transmigration. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In this connection, one quality that is quite visible is the, that matter in association with life, there is a constant flow of matter that biologists describe as metabolism. Means we eat some food, and then prasādam is digested in specific ways by so many chemical reactions in the body. But that happens only... *Prabhupāda: That is also stated, ahaṁ vaiśvānaro bhūtvā pacāmy annaṁ catur*-vidham. That digestion is also helped by God. Is it not? Ahaṁ vaiśvānaro bhūtvā pacāmy annaṁ catur-vidham. Is it not in the Bhagavad-gītā? Hari-śauri: Yes, "I am the fire of digestion." Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that differentiates also the simple matter without life. For example, sometimes it has been asked whether a crystal is alive or not. This is confusing to the scientists. Sometimes they say that a crystal is behaving just like a living body, it grows and this and that, they say. But actually there is no flow of matter. That tells us that crystal is not life. There's a fundamental difference. The last point in this connection is that matter is impersonal and life has personality. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that implies that matter is unconscious and the life is fully conscious. Vṛṣākapi: It's been said sometimes, Prabhupāda, that you have said that some rocks have life. Some rocks, some stones, are actually souls in them? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in the tree there is spirit soul. Everywhere there is spirit soul, but development of consciousness makes difference. The difference between the tree and man is that man is developed consciousness. Consciousness is developed. Tree is not developed. That is difference, but life is there both in the tree and in man. Rūpānuga: What about the crystal? The crystal grows, but we don't say that the crystal has life in the usual sense of the term. Is the crystal also... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Like diamond. Rūpānuga: Like diamond, crystal. Prabhupāda: Anywhere, wherever there is growth, there is life. Rūpānuga: So there the consciousness is simply not manifest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: In crystal form. Like the stone does not show consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are two kinds of life. Sthāvara*-jaṅgama. Sthāvara means stationary. The stone is also stationary. It never moves. Big mountain, even though it has got life, it is stationary. And a small ant, it is not stationary. It is moving. So there are two kinds of life, stationed and moving. Sthāvara-jaṅgama. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But Śrīla Prabhupāda, in order to present this to scientists in general, we are saying specifically that there is no life in stone. *Prabhupāda: No, that one stone may be dead. Just like a tree is standing. But when it is dead, the symptoms are different*-there is no more green leaf. But the tree as it is, it is standing. But there is no more green leaf. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but there is a basic difference. *Prabhupāda: So similarly we may not understand that life, so long life is there, there is development. There is a stone in Benares, Śilā*-bandheśvara. Everyone knows that stone is increasing. Still, it is there. So people go to see it. One who has seen that stone ten years ago, you will see it is developed now. So life, symptom of life is growth. Rūpānuga: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes only a single symptom of life may be demonstrated. Like in crystal there is some growth only, with no other manifestation. Then the crystal may stop growing. Just like a tree... Prabhupāda: Stops growing means dead. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even if the stone is growing, there is no metabolism. Prabhupāda: That is different thing. Machine..., we have said that the body is the machine. Then all mechanical arrangement may not be the same in many machines. But it is a machine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One question I have about this personality. We know from... Prabhupāda: Just add consciousness. When consciousness is not developed, the personality is not developed. Just like tree you cut, there is no personality, it does not protest, "Why you are cutting?" It does not scream. But a man or animal, when you attempt to injure, it screams, it protests. That means consciousness is developed. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can we prove that the personality... *Prabhupāda: This is the proof. Consciousness developed and the symptoms are there. Just like we are studying this. Our consciousness is developed. This discussion is not possible by the animals, although it has got the all life symptom. Therefore because our consciousness is developed, we can inquire. Therefore in the human form of life it is the only business to inquire about the Absolute. Now, athāto brahma jijñāsā. The animals, they can inquire where is some food, where is some stool. That much. They have no other power. But when one becomes..., gets this machine of human form of body... The Vedānta axiom is "Now it is the time for inquiring about the Absolute Truth." Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is real human life, when he inquires about the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, it is animal life. And there are so many department of education means inquiries. In the human society, there are departmental education. Physics department, chemist department, mathematics department, this department, that... Why? Because there are different inquiries. So Vedānta*-sūtra says that the prime inquiry is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is human life. If there is no inquiry about the Absolute truth, then still he is animal. So those who are simply satisfied with the physics and chemistry, they are still animals. They are not human beings. This is the challenge. Still they have not developed the consciousness. And that inquiry, when it is for Kṛṣṇa, that is the final development. And when he understands Kṛṣṇa, his life is perfect. Then he goes back again to the spiritual world. He's quite fit to live there. Otherwise, he's unfit, he must be here in this material world. And if he understands Kṛṣṇa, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. This is perfection. Svarūpa Dāmodara: One last question, this stone thing. Now as a devotee we know that matter is also eternal in the form of pradhāna, described in Third Canto in... *Prabhupāda: Yes. We have already explained, there are two energies. So if the energetic is eternal, the energy is also eternal. But the difference between the inferior and superior means one is manifested eternally and one is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. That is inferior. The matter is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. Just like the cloud. What is this cloud? Cloud is also manifestation of the energy of the sun, is it not? But it is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. But the sunshine is always manifested. So that is the difference between the inferior and superior. Both of them are energies of the sun. But the cloud is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. But the sunshine is always manifested. But as energy, they are coming from the same source. [break] ...but matter is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. Therefore it is inferior. And life is always manifested, therefore superior. I am soul, I am eternal. But this body is manifested now. It is existing eighty years or hundred years, but this body will be finished, finished forever. Then again another matter manifests. But I am the soul, eternal, this body or that body. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. He is ever*-manifest, either this body or that body, it doesn't matter. That is eternity. That is superior energy. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now understanding these basic differences, to study the origin of life has some meaning. But scientists studying the origin of life, they have no idea about these fundamental differences. So they claim that life actually is a manifestation of matter. In other words, life comes from molecules. They call it "molecule to man" theory. That we will see in the next slide. Now in this slide the molecules is called primordial chemical soup. Now these chemicals are supposed to be formed from simple, reduced substances like water and ammonia and carbon and hydrogen compounds. They are called hydro*-carbons. Now these somehow, under the action of ultra-violet radiation or cosmic force, they combine together and form these amino acids. Now these amino acids, in due course of time, form the polymers called proteins. And similarly, several polymeric compounds develop and, given a long period of time, we've shown there chance and given a long period of time, then it's going to bring life, it's going to give life. That is the fundamental background of the scientific study of origin of life. This is what they have proposed. These molecules, somehow they combine, given enough length of time, billions of years as the time period, and then it's bound to happen. They say, given enough length of time... Prabhupāda: Provided he lives billions of years. But he's finished within fifty years. (laughter) And his theory remains. The rascal cannot remain more than fifty years, and he's talking of billions of years. This is the defect. Who will see after billions of years? He is finished within hundred years. These are theories only. We see practically. Egg appears like chemical combination, but if you give, proper fermentation will come, fermentation? Devotee: Fermentation. Prabhupāda: It comes within few days. Why billions of years? Why should we wait for billions of years? This is nonsense. We see practically a bird can give birth to a child within few days, within a week. Why should we wait for billions of years? What kind of scientist you are? (laughter) Proposing to wait for millions... You nonsense. Who's going to accept your foolish theory? We see practically that within a week, and you say billions of years. Nonsense, stop that. Tell them, "You are nonsense, stop. Don't expose yourself any more." We see here, practically, within a week the life comes. Suppose the egg is a chemical composition. It is, it is chemical composition, that's a fact. But it gives life within a week. Why shall I wait for billions of years? Just see their foolishness. And this is being accepted as scientific. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, actually it is taught in all schools. There's a book called Molecules to Man. It's written by a very famous biologist, and it has been taught in school, saying that you come like this, from molecules, now you become human beings. Prabhupāda: Now what...? Leave aside man. Molecules to chicken. How it is done? What is their answer? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say give enough length of time. Prabhupāda: Why shall I give them? Here I see. Within a week, I get. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They'll ask, though, "Where did the first egg come from?" Prabhupāda: First, second, no. We see that... They say you have to wait, give the molecules chance, hundreds of billions of years, then you'll see life. But I'm not going to live for billions of years, neither scientist is going to live. But here I see practically that a small egg, it gives life within one week. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Life? Prabhupāda: Life from egg, chicken. It gives life within week. So why shall I wait for millions of billions of years? You show, you make some combination of chemical and show that life is coming within a week. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We want to defeat this. So in the next slide, in subsequent slides, Sadāpūta will show some mathematical calculation showing that this is completely wrong. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is wrong. We can see, even a layman can see. No question of mathematician, a layman can see, here within a week we see life, why shall I wait for millions of billions of years? Rūpānuga: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it is described in the *Vedas* that life begins as a pea size. In the body, the womb of the mother, the human life is only pea size, emulsification, and then in nine months it develops into this very small series of chemicals and everything, into a full body. Prabhupāda: No, no. In the Bhāgavata it is stated that life symptoms begins after five days. Rūpānuga: And consciousness in seven months. Prabhupāda: Not in consciousness, but development. Rūpānuga: But anyway, in nine months, it is done, not millions of years. Prabhupāda: Not nine months, seven months. Seven months the consciousness returns back and the child wants to come out. Therefore it moves, it feels inconvenient. And if he's pious, he then prays to God, "Kindly save me from this condition. Now taking birth, I shall take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and make myself free from this bondage." *Svarūpa Dāmodara: The most remarkable thing is these so*-called scientists, is that they believe in the most unscientific statement. Like this long time period (Prabhupāda laughs) is the most unscientific. So how can they claim as scientists? Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already said. We see practically within five days, within seven days, the life is manifest, and these rascals say millions of years, which he'll never see, neither I'll see. And we have to accept such theory. Before seeing that life system, his life will be finished and the student also will be finished. And who is going to see? Rūpānuga: Their trick is that they say it has already happened. Over the past four and a half billion years the time has taken place for this complex form of life to evolve. So they say it has already happened. Prabhupāda: That's all right, we differ in the time. You say millions, billions, and we say seven days. Vipina: But they'll say that it's able to happen in a couple of days because it's taken billions of years. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The basis of their philosophy is that there's no intelligence behind it, therefore everything is chaotically going on, and by possibility it develops. But our philosophy is that there is intelligence, it can immediately happen. Prabhupāda: We see practically. The egg theory, we can see practically. It doesn't require millions of years. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we want to completely wipe out this theory. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, there is, if we think of not in terms of science, but just in terms of our day*-to-day experience, in social, moral, ethical, all levels of consciousness, if one analyzes this a little carefully, the root cause of our complete ethical background at this time is mainly due to this theory that "You are from molecules, and when you finish your body you'll also go back to molecules. So don't worry about all these high-sounding philosophical words. You just enjoy whatever you want and do whatever you like to do." So this type of complete materialistic... Prabhupāda: Irresponsible life. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, meaninglessness. No meaning. So it has no purpose because of this very concept. So at least there's a strong influence, especially in the colleges and the university circles, the students... *Prabhupāda: Educational circles. Yes. In the education circles they are made fools. Education means he's a more fool, that's all. That is education. Mūḍha. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna. These fools and rascals, their actual knowledge is taken away, and they are coming out as educated. That we are protesting. Hari-śauri: You once called them slaughterhouses. Slaughterhouses of education. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, I have said, yes. Means whatever little education he has, that is also finished. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So, by the mercy of His Divine Grace, if we can eliminate this theory then we can establish Kṛṣṇa consciousness on firm scientific basis. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is there. My order there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And there is a great necessity... Prabhupāda: Yes. To save the people from this foolish type of education. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now in the next slide we'll show that... Actually, there were some previous scientists who were not actually atheists, rather, they had some sort of devotee qualities. And one scientist called Pasteur, he actually proved that life cannot come from matter. That is shown in the next slide. So this is the experiment. It was in... Prabhupāda: This Pasteur? There are many Pasteur Institutes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is the man, Pasteur. Prabhupāda: He has got many institutes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is in his name, Pasteur. He is a famous scientist. He was a chemist and biochemist, and he did this experiment in the 1860s. Now the flask... This experiment is called a "swan*-neck" experiment because the shape of the neck of the flask looks like the neck of a swan. So it is the famous "swan-neck experiment." Now, at that time, it was quite amazing that even the so-called famous Greek philosophers like Aristotle, Plato and all these philosophers, even they believed that life actually comes from matter. They had all complete materialistic view of life, completely on the bodily concept. Now, at that time... Prabhupāda: But Socrates did not believe like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Socrates also believed in material concept. Rūpānuga: No, Socrates did not think he was the body. Prabhupāda: He separated body from the soul. Rūpānuga: But after Socrates they all were like that. Socrates, you said once to me, was the last philosopher in the Western world of any value. At least, he knew the difference between body and soul. But after that they all became nonsense. Devotee: (indistinct) arguing that rice can bring forth scorpions, he said that can happen. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That... Prabhupāda said that rice can give scorpions? Something like that, scorpion comes out of rice. *Prabhupāda: Yes, taṇḍula*-vṛścika-nyāya. Taṇḍula-vṛścika-nyāya. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Where is this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is it in...? *Prabhupāda: In the Nyāya-śāstra, it is there. Taṇḍula*-vṛścika-nyāya. Taṇḍula means rice, and vṛścika means scorpion. The scorpion coming out of the heaps of rice, so therefore rice is producing scorpion. This logic is wrong. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, so but people then believed like that. So Pasteur, actually he believed strongly in God, and he wanted to disprove that theory, and, in fact, he got prize for doing this experiment from a French academy and, during that year... This flask contains sugar solution and with some yeast to ferment at the beginning. But now the experiment was to completely kill any germs inside the flask by heating, in the beginning, and then cool it down automatically and to keep for some time, about two or three days... Prabhupāda: Sterilization. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, sterilization. And then see whether there is any life developed within that broth. Now in the first flask, the neck is still attached to the flask. Now Pasteur found that there was no micro*-organisms fermenting the flask, in the solution inside the flask. But after some time he cut the neck of the flask, that is in the second flask, then as soon as the neck is cut, then microorganisms from the air, surrounding air, atmosphere, entered into the flask, and then the solution is fermented. So that was actually the proof that without presence of the micro-organisms from outside, from the atmosphere, then life cannot grow into that matter. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Vedic theory. That is explained in the *Bhāgavatam*. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And here he has a nice quote, Pasteur. Somebody can read that? Hari-śauri: Says: "Posterity will one day laugh at the foolishness of the modern materialistic philosophers. The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the works of the creator." Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So he believed actually completely in the divine concept, divine personality. But unfortunately this experiment has been misinterpreted by these demoniac scientists. Prabhupāda: That is also Vedic conception, that sex between man and woman is not the cause of life. Unless the living soul comes in the proper situation, the man's secretion, woman's secretion combined together emulsifies, and it creates a proper situation for the rest of the soul. So contraceptive method means that emulsification is disturbed. It does not create the proper situation; therefore pregnancy does not happen. Or imperfect discharge. The main point is that the two discharges, they create a situation wherein the living entity comes and rests. Then it will grow. Not that that is the cause of life. The mixture of two secretions is not the cause of life. That creates a proper situation, and the life comes. And if the situation is not favorable, the soul cannot stay. It has to go to somewhere else. So by the order of Kṛṣṇa, he was to come to take shelter there, but this man and woman checked it, therefore it is sinful; *he is to be punished. Just like one apartment is fixed up for me, and if somebody checks, does not allow me to enter, that is criminal. That is criminal, he is to be punished. Unlawful detention. But they do not know the laws of nature, how it is working. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. The law of nature is working very silently, subtle. But they do not know. Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. Rascal is so fool that he thinks that "I can do everything, whatever I like." Similarly, killing of animal. "Life is eternal," one can argue, "then what is wrong? Even I kill, the soul is alive." No, the same argument that this soul was to live in a particular type of body under the laws of nature, and you have checked, and he has to take again a similar body to fulfill the duration. Therefore you have done criminality. I have got lease for live in this room for certain period. If prior to the expiry of the lease, if the landlord drives me away, that is illegal. He will be punished. Rūpānuga: That is like abortion. *Prabhupāda: Everything is on that principle, that you (are) violating the laws of nature, therefore you are criminal, you have to be punished. You cannot do it. Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā. Rūpānuga: Like if you are situated in your apartment and someone comes and forces you out of your apartment, that is like abortion. Prabhupāda: That is abortion. By force you are destroying the shelter. Therefore you are criminal. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we can utilize this experiment. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is... When the life comes from outside, then there is germination. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the perfect theory. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So life comes from life. *Prabhupāda: As I have already explained. It is not the man and woman sex creation. The life comes from outside. The solution was there, but life comes out. The same example. The solution of man and woman is there, but life must come there. Then there will be pregnancy. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. Find out this, Third Canto. (pause) Rūpānuga: After this experiment, Śrīla Prabhupāda, scientists reinterpreted the experiment to mean an entirely different thing. Can you explain that, Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu, How they made it seem the opposite of what Pasteur intended? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, there are two interpretations. One is saying that give enough length of time, long time period in this Pasteur's experiment, then they are proposing that something is bound to happen. *Prabhupāda: The same thing*-you are giving more time, and here it is less time. But more time means you are expecting something to come. That is our answer. Here you are giving more time when the situation is not favorable. So more time means when the situation will be favorable the life will come from outside. That is our answer. Here the situation is favorable, the life has come immediately. But you are waiting. Waiting means you are waiting, the life coming from outside, not this solution will... Is it not? Waiting means you are just waiting for the favorable situation, to receive. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Second point was they intend to... Prabhupāda: But this time factor is answered. You are waiting. You cannot do that. You are waiting for this favorable situation. Rūpānuga: They say wait..., "In the future, after I die..." Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why shall I wait if I can get immediately? That is intelligence. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, they are cheating. Prabhupāda: Cheating. That's all. Which can be done in few days, why shall I wait for millions of years? Hari-śauri: That verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa? Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "The Personality of Godhead said: Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman through the particle of male semina to assume a particular type of body." *Prabhupāda: The life comes from the man. The living entity takes shelter of the semina, and the semina is discharged in the womb of the woman, and if the situation is favorable, then the living entity remains there and that body develops. This is pregnancy. And that yoni, that mother, is situated, selected by daiva*-netreṇa, by superior management: "This man has worked..., this living entity has worked in such a way, he should go to such and such womb." Then if he goes to a queen's womb he becomes a prince; *if he goes to the dog's womb he becomes a dog. The mother gives the body. And the superior's order is there, "Now you must go to the dog's womb. He must go to the queen's womb." Otherwise, how it is from the birth one is prince, another is dog, if there is no superior? Who likes to become a dog? No. But according to his karma, by superior arrangement, he has to take. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. He has infected the contamination of material modes of nature, and he must develop a type of body according to that consciousness. Just like if you contaminate some disease, germ, then you must suffer from that disease. This is the mystery of birth. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu. Otherwise, why there are difference of varieties of life? Sat, asat, something good, something bad. That he does not know. He works independently, defies the laws of nature, and becomes implicated. And on account of dull brain, he is punished, "Stand up here for ten thousands of years. Become a tree," that's all. That is the result of his dullness. "Remain here for ten thousand years, a dull brain. Even one cuts, you cannot protest. You suffer all kinds of natural disturbances." This is very sinful when you become a tree. And they do not make any distinction between life and matter. These things are going on. There is no knowledge, and they are passing as scientist, as philosopher. Why varieties of life? What is the scientific explanation? One life, he is prince; *one life, he is tree. Why this difference? Is there any explanation? There must be some explanation. It is also life, it is also life. Why one life has got this prince body, another this tree body? Kāraṇam..., Bhagavad*-gītā, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. The cause is association of different types of material modes of nature. If you keep yourself dull as the tree, without associating with the modes of goodness, without becoming a brāhmaṇa, then you become a tree. That's all. And if you become a brāhmaṇa, then develop your association with goodness and go back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore human life should be fully engaged, athāto brahma jijñāsā, simply for understanding Brahman. And as soon as you understand brahma-jānāti iti brāhmaṇa, then you are brāhmaṇa. And as soon as you are brāhmaṇa, then you act as a brāhmaṇa, sattva śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. Then you become Vaiṣṇava. When you become Vaiṣṇava, tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti, you are hankering after Viṣṇu. Then your life is success. And to keep them dull brained, like these trees and mountains, that is the greatest disservice in the human society. They have got the capacity to become a brāhmaṇa, and they are keeping him just like a dull-brained mountain and tree. That we want to stop this. It is suicidal, suicidal to the human society. They have got the chance of becoming a brāhmaṇa, and they are keeping them as dull-brained trees and mountains. The modern civilization, most harmful civilization. Denying the facility. One has got the capacity to become a brāhmaṇa, and they are denying the facility, to keep him to remain like hogs and dogs. Whole day and night, work hard to find out some stool, and as soon as we get some stool, a little strength, then have sex without any discrimination. This is civilization. The Vedic civilization forbids: nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. If you have created a civilization like the hogs who are working day and night hard to find out some stool, and as soon as he eats some stool, his sex power is agitated, and he doesn't care whether mother, sister or daughter, that is hog's life, hog civilization. Work day and night, and have sex. This is hog civilization. And next life become a tree, become a dull-headed tree, a dull-headed stone, mountain. Or dull-headed elephant. Who knows the laws of creation, how one becomes elephant, how one becomes hog, how one becomes a demigod? Do the scientists know it? Then? Where is the knowledge? The knowledge is "Wait for million years, then you'll see life." Just see. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's their most favorite slogan. Hari-śauri: "Wait." *Prabhupāda: Just see. I'm immediately going to become a dog, and I have to wait for millions of years. Just see. This is their nonsense. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], as soon as you give up this body, you get another body. The greatest scientist, Kṛṣṇa, says. And he says "Wait for millions of years." So shall I take Kṛṣṇa or the scientist? Kṛṣṇa says "Immediately," and you haven't got to wait for millions of years for a boy to become a young man. It takes few years. Does it require millions of years for a boy to grow as young man? By nature's way, it is immediately, a few years. Every moment, the body is changing. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Anyway, fight with this ignorance. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means fighting with ignorance. That's it. Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. What is the next verse? You read it? That is very interesting chapter. You read the purport. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "As stated in the last chapter, after suffering different kinds of hellish conditions, a man comes again to the human form of body. The same topic is continued in this chapter. In order to give a particular type of human form to a person who has already suffered hellish life, the soul is transferred to the semina of a man who is just suitable to become his father. During sexual intercourse, the soul is transferred through the semina of the father into the mother's womb in order to produce a particular type of body. This process is applicable to all embodied living entities, but it is especially mentioned for the man who has transferred to the Andha*-tāmisra hell. After suffering there, when he who has had many types of hellish bodies, like those of dogs and hogs, is to come again to the human form, he is given the chance to take his birth in the same type of body from which he degraded himself to hell. Everything is done by the supervision of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Material nature supplies the body, but it does so under the direction of the Supersoul. It is said in Bhagavad-gītā that a living entity is wandering in this material world on a chariot made by material nature. The Supreme Lord, as Supersoul, is always present with the individual soul. He directs material nature to supply a particular type of body to the individual soul according to the result of his work, and the material nature supplies it. Here one word, retaḥ-kaṇāśrayaḥ, is very significant because it indicates that it is not the semina of the man that creates life within the womb of a woman; rather, the living entity, the soul, takes shelter in a particle of semina and is then pushed into the womb of a woman. Then the body develops. There is no possibility of creating a living entity without the presence of the soul, simply by sexual intercourse." Prabhupāda: This is outside. This is not the combination of the solution. The soul is coming from outside. The same theory. It is not the solution which is creating life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "The materialistic theory that there is no soul and that a child is born simply by material combination of a man's and woman's semina is not very feasible. It is unacceptable." Prabhupāda: Next verse. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Text two. Kalalaṁ tv eka*-rātreṇa, pañca-rātreṇa budbudam. Prabhupāda: He's giving description of one day, one night, next night, next night, like that, every description. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Translation: "On the first night, the semina and ovum mix, and on the fifth night, the mixture ferments into a bubble." Prabhupāda: The same thing. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "On the tenth night it develops into a form like a plum, and after that, gradually it turns into a lump of flesh or an egg, as the case may be." Purport. "The body of the soul develops in four different ways according to its different sources. One kind of body, that of the trees and plants, sprouts from the earth; the second kind of body grows from perspiration, as with flies, germs and bugs; the third kind of body develops from eggs; and the fourth develops from an embryo. This verse indicates that after emulsification of the ovum and semina, the body gradually develops either into a lump of flesh or into an egg, as the case may be. In the case of birds it develops into an egg, and in the case of animals and human beings it develops into a lump of flesh." Prabhupāda: Then? Next verse. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Translation. "In the course of a month, a head is formed, and at the end of two months, hands, feet and other limbs take shape. By the end of three months, the nails, fingers, toes, body hair, bone and skin appear, as do the organ of generation and the other apertures in the body, namely the eyes, nostrils, ears, mouth and anus." *Prabhupāda: The same thing. Fermentation is going on, and the living entity takes a form. Then flies. And they say, from the water it is coming, flies, mosquito. The same process for development. That's all. Everything is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, what happens to the soul when you have an abortion, though? Where does it go? *Prabhupāda: Goes to another body. Dehāntara. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. If you do not allow him to this body, he goes to another body. Just like if you drive me from this apartment, I must go somewhere. I must find out another apartment. It is not that I am finished. You force me to go out of this apartment. So I go to a friend's house or anywhere, I must go. Devotee (1): Would that also be due to that soul's karma, that he has gone from being aborted on to another body? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily, but you create a karma. You are responsible for that. Hari-śauri: So it's not necessarily that he's receiving some sinful reaction from past work that he's not allowed to enter. Prabhupāda: That may be, but you are responsible for that. Because you are driving me from this apartment by force. Actually, in a higher sense, that is accepted, that he was to be driven away. But because you are driving, you are responsible for that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now this experiment, another interpretation of these material scientists is that they claim that this experiment disproved the vital theory. But on other hand, actually, the opposite is true, that he proved that there is a vital theory, rather, that spirit must be there. That was actually proved by this experiment also. But the mentality of these scientists are so demoniac that they twist the truth around... [break] RNA is a big molecule and that is actually transferred from this DNA molecule. DNA molecule, they call it the master molecule from which everything comes, all the molecules. Now if we see this carefully, we can see at every step that there is a specific direction and information without which this whole machinery will break down. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. Find out this verse. Vedaiś ca sarvair... So "If you want to acquire knowledge how these molecules are working, so you must know it is coming from Me, the direction is coming from Me." You are waiting, wherefrom this direction is coming. Kṛṣṇa says "This direction is coming from Me." Mattaḥ, "from Me." Then the Absolute Truth, it is recognized. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And the scientists are mistaking the effects for the causes? The molecules are working under Kṛṣṇa's direction. Prabhupāda: Working under the direction, yes, under the direction of the Supersoul. That is stated, mattaḥ, "from Me." Hari-śauri: Shall I read it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: "I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the *Vedas* am I to be known; indeed, I am the compiler of the Vedānta, and I am the knower of the *Vedas*." Prabhupāda: So you are searching, you are surprised how this direction is coming. Here is the answer, mattaḥ, "from Me." The answer is there. Sadāpūta: A comparison can be made with things like this, and, say, a computerized factory. A computerized factory, there has to be direction all the time, or else it breaks down. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that direction is coming from Kṛṣṇa. He is all*-perfect. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The instructions are given so vividly here, that first there is called the initiation step. It has to get specific information coded in this, they are called bases, and now, then it elongates, and then finally it's called stop signal. There's some message coming that "You stop right there." And if there is some mistake or something wrong along the path, then there will be a correction signal: "You made a mistake, so correct there." This type of... Prabhupāda: Just see how perfect. How perfect it is. (laughs) Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate [*Īśopaniṣad*, Invocation]. Because the direction is coming from the pūrṇam, complete, so correction is made and everything is done, everything nicely. Because the direction is coming from the complete perfect, there cannot be any mistake. That's it. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this is actually the first step of protein synthesis. In order to make proteins, this messenger RNA has to be transcribed from this DNA molecule. In the next step you'll see the final step for protein synthesis. Now there are also RNA's*-they are called transfer RNA, those white-colored, white and yellow-colored things. (laughter) Each of them has to bring a specific amino acid, coded to a specific code, three base codes, base pair. Now each of them has to bring a specific amino acid and to put it together in a very specific manner. They cannot scramble. Because if it scrambles there's not going to be... Prabhupāda: Again mistake, again mistake. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So it cannot happen. Prabhupāda: Just rightly. So much direction is there, perfect. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So like that, then, when the..., once they bring these amino acids one by one, then they stick together, and that also process is done by enzymes. There are so many steps involved, and very intricate. It is actually done by a catalyst called enzymes. Enzymes are also very big molecules, actually they are also proteins, and in each step the enzymes are so specific that they do only one specific function just for the right purpose, and once this is done then slowly the protein separates at the right time and with the proper length and proper number of amino acids. In this way, actually we can prove in every case that... Prabhupāda: Perfect direction. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the direction of the Supersoul is a necessity. In whatever condition we look at, even in the molecules. Prabhupāda: So nice management, there must be nice direction. Rūpānuga: No question of chance. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. Kṛṣṇa is in every atom. *Prabhupāda: Yes, and He... If somebody says how the atoms are working like that, the Kṛṣṇa's..., Brahmā says, aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. He is within the atom also, the Supreme. Therefore it is acting so nice. Eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭim [Bs. 5.35]. Whole material world is going on under His direction, and He is acting within the atom also. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. As He is directing this cosmic arrangement, similarly He is directing from the atom, within the atom also. That is omnipotency. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we want to develop these concepts and prove... Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa will help you. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now later on, when Sadāpūta speaks, there will be similar concepts, but that is applied to the human platform called inspiration*-inspiration and proving the existence of Paramātmā, Supersoul. Actually, it ties together very well. Even from the molecular level we can see this, and in the human platform actually it is very vividly,... Prabhupāda: Manifested. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can feel it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in all branches of study, either it is physical or chemical or mathematical, in all branches of science, we want to show the existence of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: His hand is working. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. That is the fact. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So these are some of the chemical concepts that I described earlier. Next Sadāpūta will take over, and he'll describe the mathematical and physical concepts of proving the existence of Paramātmā. Prabhupāda: Yes, do it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to (indistinct) tonight Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Why not? What business we have got? (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Shall I offer it for you? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Sadāpūta: This slide shows..., these are the laws of nature according to physicists. And the point we make is that this is their understanding of the final cause of things, and it's very limited. Actually, on this one page, these equations describe everything that goes into all the actions and interactions of chemistry according to their present understanding. And, so there are two main points to make about this. Number one, these are very..., these laws describe very simple forces, pushes and pulls between atoms and things like that. And so intuitively it is very hard to imagine why such simple forces should cause anything complex to organize itself together. Now the scientists customarily make the assertion that laws like this are universal, but one thing we can notice is they have no proof of that. These laws which they say are universal are only studied in certain limited experimental situations with inanimate matter, and then they extrapolate and they say that they apply to everything. But actually the equations are so hard to solve even for reasonably simple molecules that they can't actually test out their assertion. So it's actually just a bluffing statement. So in this slide we wanted to point out how limited these laws are, how limited their concept of the laws of nature is. The next slide, according to the scientist's idea, there are two things going on-these laws and also chance. So this is a calculation showing what happens if you just have chance acting to form one of these proteins that Svarūpa Dāmodara was talking about, and you can calculate... Actually here you calculate, suppose you threw a protein together at chance-and here we even allow a ten percent error, you're allowing to get it wrong among ten percent of the proteins-but still chance comes out to ten minus two-hundred*-and forty-fourth-power. Now the scientists are always saying if you wait for a long enough time, even something very unlikely can happen; *but here we have a calculation of how long you'd have to wait, according to mathematics and the probability theory, and even if you assume an unrealistically high rate of forming proteins at random, still you'd have to wait, according to this, ten to the hundred*-and-sixty-seventh-power billion years. And that's a little bit too long. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is mathematics. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's longer than Brahmā's life. *Sadāpūta: So mathematics shows that chance alone would never begin to produce the things that go into life, because this, say, is just for one protein, but it's estimated in the simplest cell that they experiment with that there are some three thousand proteins. This is what they estimate. And in a human, in a single cell of the human body, they estimate three hundred thousand, or even three million. It's just an estimate. But it shows that chance is completely unrealistic. Now the scientists will say that both chance and natural laws somehow mysteriously go together in what they call natural selection to produce living structures. In the next slide, this is also a calculation, and it shows that that is not correct either, at least as far as the mathematics goes. What this says is suppose you look at the earth and you're going to wait four point five billion years-that's what they estimate is the age of the earth*-and ask what is the chance of finding a given organized structure. And mathematically there's a thing called information theory, and you can show that the chance of getting an organized structure with a high level of information goes down exponentially, so that for an amount of information higher than that of the laws that cause these things to move, the chance goes down practically to zero. So it wouldn't happen. So this gets kind of complicated, but there's a basic point behind it; *namely it indicates that the natural laws that are causing things, like that list of those laws, must already have in them, built into them, whatever is going to be manifested. That is, if some given structure can be manifested in the material world, that means the laws that are causing things must already have at least that much built into them. But their understanding of natural laws, the laws are too simple, too short to have that kind of thing built into them. So there's that argument. We'll go on to the next one. This is some mathematical formulas related to that. I don't think we should dwell on that. This slide right here gives an example of the kind of structures you find even in simple organisms. This is a bacterium. When they look at it under a microscope, they can see that this bacterium has a reversible motor built into it, and this motor spins a spiral flagellum, and by spinning it it propels the bacteria through the water, just like a submarine. So this very sophisticated motor is built into the wall of the bacterium. So that shows the kind of structures for which designs would have to be there. Actually, the scientific explanation, the way that they explain how this comes about, is completely impossible, because they would say that either by chance it came about all at once-and the chances are way too small, so that would never happen*-or else it would have to come by small stages somehow. But what would be a small stage in the formation of a workable motor? Can't even think of how that would work. So it doesn't make much sense. So what we wanted to argue was that these living structures are very highly complex, they have a very great amount of information needed to specify them, and then mathematically it follows that this evolution process can't happen, because the probability is way down, it's something impossible. So we wanted to argue that. The next slide-whoops, we're going the wrong way, there. We wanted to compare some structures. This is the chemist's idea of what a diamond..., the top picture is a chemist's idea of what the structure of a diamond looks like. It's based on very simple repeating patterns. It's reasonable perhaps that chemical pushes and pulls could produce a simple design like this just by pulling the molecules together. The lower thing is a structure for graphite, which is another simple design built on hexagons. But on the other hand, in living systems you have things like this. (shows slide) According to the way they've analyzed it, there are chemical structures of this complexity. So we'd like to argue that this requires a very large amount of information to specify this thing, and so the simple natural laws couldn't account for this. On the other hand, it's very reasonable to suppose that an intelligent designer can account for things like that. These protein structures that Svarūpa Dāmodara was pointing out, it's not just any old structure, but it performs a very specific function within the cell, just like a little automatic machine of some kind. So we'd like to argue that the chance and molecular forces theory won't explain things like this, but to say that there is an intelligent designer would be a sensible explanation. The next slide, this shows some of the complexities of what goes on inside a cell, and it's only a fraction of what is there. It's hard to read, but each little bit of print refers to some very complicated chemical reaction involving big molecules like the one in the last slide. So there are hundreds of reactions like that on this one page, and this page is one out of four from a chart that we found detailing some of these things. This metabolism goes on even in the most primitive cells like this bacterium, and yet it's only a fraction of the total of what goes on. The scientists will admit they've only made a fractional study of all that's going on in these cells. So that kind of argument is one line of reasoning we'd like to present. (another slide) Now this refers to another thing. We'd like to describe the concept of consciousness as being something not material-nonphysical and nonchemical. And it turns out that actually in modern physics that's already a basic principle, and it's been that way for the last fifty or sixty years, but that's not widely admitted or taught in the schools. But actually in modern physics, it's called quantum mechanics. They realize that in order to describe physical processes you have to include the observer in the picture; you can't describe these things without accounting for the observer, and so they made an analysis. This was done by von Neumann, who was one of these physicists. He analyzed the difference between the observer and the observed. So here we have a man looking through, say, a microscope at some object, and you can see that in this case you can draw the line between the observer and the observed. So the man is observing the microscope plus object. And physically there are, according to the physicist's idea, there are these equations, represented by number one, equation number one, which describe all the molecules and forces of interaction on the observed side. But there's another kind of equation that goes in quantum mechanics, which corresponds to the observer's side, and this equation is completely different from the first equation. So this indicates that the observer must be something different in nature from the observed. Now the next slide shows here the boundary between the observer and the observed is moved. It's kind of arbitrary. You can move the boundary back so now the observed becomes the eyeball and the microscope and the object, and the observer is still on the other side. And the basic idea is you can move this boundary back, step by step, and on one side you can put, at least in principle, more and more of the parts of the body into the observed system, but on the other side you still have the observer, and he continues to be described by an equation that can't be reduced to the force laws that are used to describe the observed. So the conclusion is that the observer must be something nonphysical. He's not actually part of that physical body at all. So that's actually basic in quantum mechanics. So we wanted to present that. Now this slide... There's another line of evidence here. It's the inspiration, and Śrīla Prabhupāda has said that intelligence is the form direction of Supersoul. So it's interesting, it's really striking to observe how various people create things in mathematics and science and art, like that. It's very striking. So we made two examples here. This one is a mathematician names Gauss. He lived in the nineteenth century, and his concern was to solve mathematical proble Devotee: "I've succeeded not on account of my painful effort, but by the grace of God. Like a sudden flash of lightning, the riddle happened to be solved. I myself cannot say but when the conducting thread which connected what I previously knew with what made my success possible." Prabhupāda: So the chance theory is the grace of God. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Grace of God? Prabhupāda: Yes, because if God sees that the rascal is trying for so many years, "All right, give him a chance." (laughter) That is His mercifulness. So what they call chance theory, that is grace of God. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So God is all*-merciful. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is the proof. Sadāpūta: Actually, this couldn't come about by just chance, because the number of possibilities... Prabhupāda: There is, but he takes it as chance. All the possibilities taken together he is given by God. That he does not know. He takes it as chance. But there is no question of chance. It is the gift of God. *Sadāpūta: Next example, this is another example taken from music. This example is Mozart. Mozart was a musician. He composed symphonies. And in that quote which-I'll just summarize it instead of reading it*-he explains how it was that he created these symphonies. He explained that actually what happened was that ideas just came into his mind, melodic themes and so on, and he says "Whence do they come I do not know, and I have nothing to do with it." And actually what would happen was that an entire symphony would just blossom into his mind, and he wouldn't even know where it was coming from. So... Prabhupāda: Unknown. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Unknown source. Sadāpūta: So we want to argue that this demonstrates that Supersoul is acting. These cases of these very famous musicians and scientists and such, there are many of them, they can be multiplied at great length, and they are very striking that way. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are about to make a slide of Kavirāja, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, about the, writing Caitanya*-caritāmṛta on the same line, direction of Supersoul. We had... But couldn't put together. We'll make several slides along these lines proving the existence of Supersoul on the human level. *Sadāpūta: We are also thinking that this inspiration illustrated the modes of nature and the law of karma to some extent, because like the mathematician had to struggle very painfully for a very long time without getting his result, and then he got it, so that seemed more like the mode of passion and like that. But Mozart apparently just got these things without having to struggle for them, as though that was his past karma or something. Next slide. This is a summary of the basic kind of argument we wanted to make. The picture on the left, those ovals represent states of matter, configurations of matter, and they go from simple, toward the bottom, like just a chemical solution, up towards more complex as you go up, like living bodies of different kinds. The theory of evolution is sort of indicated in the left*-hand one. According to that theory, you have very simple natural laws, and you start out with simple physical states, but somehow these natural laws produce a progressive increase in order, as indicated by those arrows going up. But actually we want to argue that simple natural laws don't have the power to do that, and that the situation on the right is what would happen if you just had simple natural laws, namely they would keep shoving things around on a simple level but never produce anything complex. The next slide, though, indicates that if you had natural laws with a high order of complexity, then they could manifest physical situations with a high order of complexity also, depending on how much was built into the laws. So we wanted to, in these two examples, indicate a higher and higher order of natural laws. So what we wanted to do was then combine these two things together, on the one hand that consciousness is not a physical phenomenon, and on the other hand, that in order to get... Prabhupāda: This is physical, but subtle. Sadāpūta: The actual perception of the soul is not...? *Prabhupāda: Perception of the soul is there, but this physical demonstration is of the soul by consciousness. The more it is purified, it becomes spiritual. The consciousness is there. The more it is purified, then it becomes spiritual. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. It has to be purified. The water is crystal clear, but when it comes in touch with the earth it becomes muddy. But again you can clarify it, and water becomes crystal clear. That consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Sadāpūta: So we wanted to then say that, a few lines of reasoning, that you have to have higher*-ordered laws to cause complex forms... *Prabhupāda: That higher*-order laws is explained, mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ? *Prabhupāda: Sūyate sa*-carācaram, hetunānena kaunteya jagad viparivartate. Things are going down on account of the superior direction. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, that is shown in the next slide. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Devotee (1): What are you doing? Sadāpūta: I want that next slide on there. There it is. Prabhupāda: There. Yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. Here is vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Find out this verse, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. This is Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva must be, and from Him, everything is coming. That is real knowledge. Hari-śauri: "After many births and deaths..." Prabhupāda: It is conclusion, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. So you are mahātmā, sudurlabhaḥ, not ordinary rascal mathematician. (laughter) But you are real mathematician, that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. Read the purport. *Hari-śauri: "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." Purport. "The living entity, while executing devotional service or transcendental rituals after many, many births may actually become situated in transcendental pure knowledge that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate goal of spiritual realization. In the beginning of spiritual realization, while one is trying to give up one's attachment to materialism, there is some leaning towards impersonalism. But when one is further advanced he can understand that there are activities in the spiritual life and that these activities constitute devotional service. Realizing this, he becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and surrenders to Him. At such a time one can understand that Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa's mercy is everything, that He is the cause of all causes, and that this material manifestation is not independent from Him. He realizes the material world to be a perverted reflection of spiritual variegatedness and realizes that in everything there is a relationship with the Supreme Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Thus he thinks of everything in relation to Vāsudeva, or Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Such a universal vision of Vāsudeva precipitates one's full surrender to the Supreme Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa as the highest goal. Such surrendered great souls are very rare. This verse is very nicely explained in the Third Chapter of Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad: 'In this body there are power of speaking, of seeing, of hearing, of mental activities, etc. But these are not important if not related to the Supreme Lord. And because Vasudeva is all*-pervading and everything is Vasudeva, the devotee surrenders in full knowledge.' " Prabhupāda: Vāsudeva, surrenders. That's nice. All right, continue tomorrow. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Devotees: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Distribute this prasādam. [break] Janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam [SB 1.2.7]. Vairāgya and jñāna, both thing will develop, Vāsudeva. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Take prasādam. Give him twice, he has worked very hard. (laughter) Double, you should give double. So Kṛṣṇa will bless you. So push this scientific movement, go to every university, every college. How they are receiving now in the college circles? Sadāpūta: We gave a lecture a couple of days ago in Gainesville, and it was interesting. We actually gave a couple of TV interviews. Prabhupāda: How they received it? Sadāpūta: Well in the class, at first the professor said "That's completely fallacious." But he quieted down. Prabhupāda: Yes, they will say like that, "fallacious," but you have to make them down. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the TV it was very favorable. The interview was just a professor at the University of Florida, and he's a professor of religion and history. We were speaking how life comes from life from a philosophical and scientific point of view, and he received very well and asked questions also. Prabhupāda: All right. Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the very complex molecules, very slight probability, practically none, that this could happen by chance. There has to be some intelligence. It is very good argument for chemistry point of view. Hari-śauri: Even anyone with a little common sense can understand that a very simple thing cannot produce a highly complicated thing. It's such an obvious point, but they have to have so many mathematical equations to accept it. Prabhupāda: Dictaphone, so many complicated, then it is working. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And if one slight thing is off... Prabhupāda: Immediately, work stopped. Hari-śauri: Yes, he made that point, in that he said that in the development of a motor, he said the whole thing has to be there, the whole idea has to be there to start with, to make the motor and to make it work, then it works. Prabhupāda: It is good. Hari-śauri: It's very convincing, this presentation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they are mahātmās, no doubt, it's just that most chemists, most scientists are very, very skeptical. Going from ovals,(?) and all of a sudden they see the form of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would be a great shock for the scientists. Prabhupāda: Whose brain is there. *Hari-śauri: Maybe they should explain that in a little more detail, that in that higher order, that he put in the slide, there was one box that said "higher*-order laws," so then they have to explain that if there's laws then there's lawmaker, that means higher intelligence, so that means a higher personality. Prabhupāda: That is explained. Vāsudeva is higher. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The difficulty is that they compare Vāsudeva to themselves. They think that "I am so unintelligent and tiny, I can't even create anything, but how can one person create all of these things, down to the tiniest atom?" Such an extraordinary... Prabhupāda: Therefore He is God. He's not dog like you, barking only and doing nothing. (Prabhupāda knocks on table or flooring) What is this stone? Hari-śauri: Marble. It's a type of Italian marble, I think. They call it terrazzo. Something like that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's very soft underneath. Hari-śauri: They often put this on the facings of buildings, big buildings. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Comes off on the fingers, very soft stone. Hari-śauri: In Detroit temple, that stairway that goes up, this is the same marble, marble steps. Prabhupāda: Move this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like this fan on at all, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) *(break*-next day) Rūpānuga: Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu, You want to ask some questions? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is that? Astronomical chart? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, it was just, Pradyumna was just telling me all this,... Yes, astronomical chart, about the moons, and... Prabhupāda: Astrological? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, astrological. Prabhupāda: He has become astrologer. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we thought, now, the biologists have a difficult time in defining species. It's not very clear, the way they do it. Now we want to bring up the concept that the, by the combination of the three modes of material nature produce all these different varieties of species. We say 8,400,000. And on that line... Prabhupāda: 8,400,000. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, now along that line, we want to make a nice chart on... *Prabhupāda: Chart is already there, jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi, nine hundred thousand species. Not species, forms. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Now we want to make a very clear distinction of, say, the mode of goodness and mode of passion and ignorance. And we want to give some very specific examples... Prabhupāda: The demigods, they are in goodness. And the human being in passion, and the animals in ignorance. That is general division. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The animals are ignorance. But now even we come to the, let's say,... Prabhupāda: Nitijugdeva.(?) Deva means demigods, they are in goodness. And human being in passion, and animals in ignorance. This is general division. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What about the plants and other smaller...? Prabhupāda: That is also animals, less, still more in dense darkness. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The other point along this line, we also wanted to, even in the same animal or bird kingdom... Prabhupāda: No, no. You can very minutely distinguish, this is the general division. Then there is minute division. That is numbering about 8,400,000. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Under that category, that minor divisions, now let's take the animals. Even in the animal kingdom, there are some animals which are influenced... Prabhupāda: From the animals down, it is all ignorance. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Animals down, all ignorance. Rūpānuga: What about like the cow, little goodness in it, mixed? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: And the lion, little passion? Prabhupāda: Yes. No, everywhere there is mixture. Otherwise, how it comes to 8,000,000? There is mixture. But this is the general division. Now you cannot make how much passion, how much goodness is there. That you can understand from the behavior. But this is general division. We can speak of general division. The minute division is made by nature. That nature's study, one who can study nature, then he can do that. Rūpānuga: That means to study the activity, psychology of the... *Prabhupāda: So all the qualities are working, mixed up practically. But prominently like this. Here you cannot have any quality completely of that quality. Other qualities are there, but prominently that particular... Just like demigods. They also become sometimes passionate, sometimes ignorant. So in this material world it is very difficult to find out pure modes of nature in anything. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Sometimes some quality prominent, sometimes some quality is prominent. So the best thing is to become transcendental to all these qualities. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. That is devotional service. Śuddha-sattva, completely pure goodness. That is wanted. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is not the direction that we were thinking. We were thinking that we could give some specific examples. We understand that the modes of nature are mixed, but even then... Now let's take birds. A bird like swan likes to be very clean habit, likes to live in a nice environment like lotus and clean water, but on the other hand birds like eagle, very passionate, wants to... Prabhupāda: Crow. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Crow is rather very ignorant and wants to be very dirty, whereas... Prabhupāda: So what you will do by such study? Svarūpa Dāmodara: By this... *Prabhupāda: Generalize the divisions, that's all. But none of the divisions are spiritual. Our aim is to come to the spiritual platform. Traiguṇya*-viṣayā vedā nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Not that to increase goodness and keep a less quantity passion and ignorance. Be completely free from all the three qualities, that is required. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that is our philosophy, but... Prabhupāda: So some other living entity who is prominent in this quality, prominent that, it does not make much difference. So long he is in the material qualities, he's entrapped. So get him out of this condition and put him into the spiritual platform. That is the solution. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. In the material world if you think that the quantity of goodness is now big than the other modes of nature, that does not make a solution. Next moment the passion will be prominent, next moment the ignorance will be prominent. You cannot check it or fix him up in one quality. It is not possible. That is not possible. The best thing is to bring him to the unconditional stage, transcendental stage. Sa guṇān... Keep him engaged in devotional service, he is free from influence of all these qualities. That is wanted. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is on a human platform, but we wanted to appeal purely on a scientific level to the scientists. Now in order to bring these concepts that these three modes of nature, because of mixing of these three modes of nature it produces different species, varieties of species... Now this is completely unknown to them. They have no idea about these modes. So somehow we thought if we bring some specific examples like this, that looking the products of nature as a source, not worrying about transcendental or not, (microphone rattling) Prabhupāda: What is the use of such things? If you particularly study that this living entity is now in this mode, say goodness fifty percent and passion ten percent, in this way, but it can change at any moment. You cannot fix it up. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is good, because if we argue this we can always defeat this concept of evolution. Our main point is to defeat the concept of evolution. Prabhupāda: No, no, evolution is already there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Evolution means material evolution, from chemicals. Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not evolution. The species are already there, 8,400,000. Now the living entity is changing the position. The status is already there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but they don't understand that. Prabhupāda: They don't understand. That is their foolishness. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that's why we want to bring up this point that... *Prabhupāda: You can bring up. This is the position. Just like there are apartments are already there. Sometimes I am coming here, sometimes going there, but this is the position. I'm not fixed up. Similarly, living entity, as soon as he changes his mind, the apartment is ready. Here is your position. Again he changes, "Here, here is your position." They are already there. Not that for him especially being created. The species are already there. As soon as he fixes himself up particular species, he's transferred, daiva*-netreṇa karmaṇā. He gets a similar body, "Come on, here, take this body." Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. These are explained. So he's transmigrating, he's not fixed up. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. He gets, by his desire, he gets a particular body. Then after some time he changes to another body. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That we understand, only your Divine Grace's disciples, but not everyone. Prabhupāda: Then you try to make understand others that this is the position. Rūpānuga: One thing is, the modern biologists, they have no... Prabhupāda: You cannot, you cannot... What is your question? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The question is, now we want to argue that how is it possible, now you are claiming that life is coming from molecules? If you claim like that, then how is it possible that in the same species, let's say in the birds, that these qualities are spreading? Some birds we see behave like a little influenced by the modes of goodness, though it is mixed. Like swan, we are taking that example. But some are like eagle, very passionate, wants to kill small birds as their food, and on the other hand, birds like crows, they like just to be completely ignorant, or they like to survive in a dirty environment. Why? Is this possible just from the concept of molecular evolution? It's completely, it's failing. They have no explanation along those terms. So we thought to bring up these points, it will be very clear that this evolution is completely wrong. So we want to use that... Prabhupāda: There is no question of evolution. It is already there. This is a wrong theory. The monkey is there, the man is there. The soul is going from monkey to man. It is not the evolution. Just like you have got apartment, ten rupees, five rupees, twenty rupees, thirty rupees, like that. Now, as you pay, "Come on, here." There is no question of evolution. It is already there. Jantur dehopapattaye. These dehas, these bodies, are already there. So immediately it develops a particular type of desire, "Yes, come here, sit down." First class, second class, third class, fourth class is already there. As you pay, "Yes, come here." It is not evolving; *it is already there. He is transferred from one apartment to another. This has to be convinced. We don't find that monkey's body became a human body. That is not in the experience, anyone. The monkey is there, the human being is there. But the soul is going from monkey's body to human's body, or monkey's body to another body. That is by superior administration. Their theory is the body is evolving and some body is missing. Nothing is missing. Every body is there. The soul is being transferred from one body to another. Asatims caturam caiva laksams jīva jātiṣu.(?) Jāti means the form of the body. So the form of the body is already there, and the living entity is being transferred from one body to another. This is called transmigration. We have come here, not that that room developed. This room is here, that room is there, but I am transferring. Because they have no idea of soul, they are thinking that this nice room, now transform into this room or this room, transform... This is foolishness. A civil man transferred into jail*-not that his civil house becomes jail. They are thinking wrongly like that, Darwin's theory. Body becoming changed. No. The different types of bodies are already there. The living entity is being transferred from one body to another. Just try to explain. So evolution you take that this apartment is better than that apartment, that apartment better than, and a living entity's going from one after another. So this is evolution. That you are now getting salary, one thousand dollar, now you get fifteen hundred dollars. So according to your qualification, you are getting. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When we talk about evolution, in our understanding, evolution is evolution of consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. We say karma. Evolution of karma. So karma is also based on consciousness. If you like to do a particular type of work, that can be changed, consciousness. Rūpānuga: We can give them some examples. There's no harm, is there? To give them some example of different kinds of work and activity? Prabhupāda: Just like eating. You are eating meat, you can give it up. If you think it is not good, you can give it up. What is the wrong there? Svarūpa Dāmodara: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you think giving examples, or like making a division of these animals under category of these three modes is not proper? After all, all the modes are mixed. Now can we say that a cow is, although there are other modes, but predominantly the mode of goodness? Prabhupāda: Predominantly ignorance. Cow, just like cows, or, yes... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Cows, then tigers, lions we can give predominantly passion. Now coming to either camels or pigs we can call ignorance. Prabhupāda: So many, very subtle, subtle mixture. That subtleness of mixture is impossible for you to analyze. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that's true. So we shouldn't do this? *Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said daiva*-netreṇa, superior administration. You cannot do it. Rūpānuga: We have to simply teach them that evolution really means some... Prabhupāda: It's taking place in this way, that's all. That much you can say. You cannot actually analyze a particular body, what percentage of this or... That's impossible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, we are not analyzing, but we're just giving this by seeing from practical example. *Prabhupāda: That is already there, one life after another. That is already there by superior arrangement. Very fine arrangement, exactly to the percentage of different qualities, the body is already there. Simply the soul has to be put into that body by superior arrangement. Say, first*-class passenger, what does he require? The apartment is already made by expert, what is needed for a first-class passenger? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: He needs some more money. He must be rich to get a first*-class apartment. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but so far arrangement, just like Western hotels, everything is so complete. They know what a first*-class man wants. So expert. They have already made. You don't require to say anything, that "I want..." So complete. But the steps are already mentioned. Aquatics, then plants, vegetation, then insects, reptiles, then birds, then beasts. These are the gradual... Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we'd like actually to bring out very clearly why the swan is different from a crow. What is it. What makes it different. Why a swan behaves this way and a crow behaves this way. Prabhupāda: According to combination of these modes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why we want to bring out, that modes of nature, that can explain so many things so nicely, the difference, but science has no background on that. *Prabhupāda: That means you have to analyze different bodies. But that is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, which apartment is better than the other apartment, there is description. Just like a dog's body is so made that two furlongs away some newcomer is coming, immediately he will bark, he can immediately understand, perceive. He can smell that "Somebody is coming who is not known to me." Is it not? So he has got that special quality. Even in animals we will find. A fish in the water, two miles away there is some enemy, they can understand by touch. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Science calls those chemical senses. Prabhupāda: These are described in the Bhāgavata, the different perception of different senses, how one is prominent in one animal body. That is described. Rūpānuga: That is coming? That is not yet printed? I don't remember that description. Prabhupāda: No, I think that in the Third Canto. In Third Canto there is. You can consult Third Canto. One sense is prominent. Rūpānuga: Like you have the example the tongue for the fish, an elephant, his genital, and you gave some other, these are there in the *Bhāgavatam*. The deer, the ear. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's due to the combination of the modes, as a result of the mixing of the three modes in different percentage. So we can even just mention like that in this, Prabhupāda: That you can take from the authoritative statement you find. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So shall we make an attempt to give these examples like this, or just mention it? What's better? What do you think? *Rūpānuga: Well, one thing, the biologists haven't even really counted up many so*-called species themselves. So why should we get into such..., worry about the details? They don't have the detail themselves. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, not details, but we wanted to show that there is such thing as the three modes of nature, they are working, not just by chemical combination these things are produced. We want to say that the three modes are there. Because of the working of the... Prabhupāda: No, the three modes induces chemical composition. Then RN, DNA (laughs)... Svarūpa Dāmodara: But this is very unique in science itself. It's a very novel concept just from scientific level. Devotee: The scientists have a desire to explain things. They like to see that you can explain so many different things. Perhaps it doesn't have any real utility to explain, Prabhupāda: So, as far as possible, you can give explanation from *Bhāgavatam*. Otherwise, how you can... Devotee: So by giving these examples then they might think this has very good explanatory power, and they will therefore accept it, they will (indistinct). Prabhupāda: So the general division in the higher planetary system is the devatās, beginning from sun, moon and other planetary systems, they are in modes of goodness prominent. Less, below that, bhūr bhuvaḥ, they are passionate, and below that, they are ignorant. *Devotee: Do the number of demigods have something to do with the number of species, like there are thirty*-three million demigods? *Prabhupāda: There are thirty*-three million. Thirty crores. There are also divisions, Gandharvas, Apsarās. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Do they belong to these species? They are also included in these eight million four hundred? These Gandharvas? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they are counted, what, as human beings? Prabhupāda: Some of them are devatās, some of them are human being. Rūpānuga: When we say four hundred thousand species of human beings, that doesn't include all the demigods then. Prabhupāda: The demigods are like human beings. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda told me that when you become a devotee, you are a demigod. (laughs) Prabhupāda: The whole evolutionary process means to bring the living entity to the platform of goodness and then transcend that platform also, come to pure goodness. That is devotion. Devotee: Prabhupāda? You explained that all those forms are already existing. What is the meaning of all those forms if there is no one inhabiting them? Why is it that they all exist without... Prabhupāda: No, no, how you can say nobody is inhabiting? Devotee: You said that they are there, you just go to the different forms. So that means they are existing without anyone living there? Prabhupāda: No, form, a class of form. It can be immediately, that A class, B class, C class, D class. So if you are fit for D class, immediately form for you, a D class body is there, made. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is also existing in the sense that in the unmanifested form, before it is manifested, the form is there. *Prabhupāda: No, no. That is species. Form is there already. They are existing. So you require to get another form, but the same class. First*-class compartment is there. If it is, one bogey is already, first-class filled up, then railroad company brings another bogey and gives place to the passengers. That's all, there is no difficulty. What is the difficulty? Put him into this particular mother's womb and he gets a form, that's all. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Don't compare Kṛṣṇa's power with your power. He can do anything, anyone, immediately. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So called Acintya. (pause) What is the biological concept of species? Sadāpūta: All they can do is base it on the similarity of what the animals look like. They have trouble counting species. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Are there different meanings, this day of Brahmā? Are there different creations and annihilations of species? Different Manus, they are sometimes flooding the whole earth. Prabhupāda: There are different, when Brahmā goes to sleep, that is one kind of devastation, and when he dies there is one kind. And during Brahmā's days there are other devastations, manvantara. Sadāpūta: After a devastation, do the... Prabhupāda: Different classes of devastation. There are many devastations during Brahmā's day, and there is another devastation during Brahmā's sleep, and another devastation when Brahmā dies. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And during different Manus also. Prabhupāda: That is day. Such devastation takes place during Brahmā's day. Fourteen Manus. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Do we know that in detail, Śrīla Prabhupāda? What type of species are extinct? Not all the species extinct. As it is during Brahmā's day, that partial annihilation, devastation, now some species are extinct? Prabhupāda: No species extinct. What you are reading? This is garbage.(?) Svarūpa Dāmodara: The physical forms. Prabhupāda: No, nothing is extinct. Everything is going on. Svarūpa Dāmodara: At that point, they are going to come up with the point that "How about dinosaurs?" They are going to ask like that. Prabhupāda: That is imagination, where is dinosaur finding. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they have all the bones. Prabhupāda: No, they are describing maybe another animal. That is existing. That is Timiṅgila, they can swallow up big, big whale fishes. That big, bones, they are living still. Nothing is extinct. They are already there. Rūpānuga: Did these dinosaurs exist, or is it just their imagination? Prabhupāda: The big animal exists. I call it dinosaur or finosaur, that is your choice. Big animals existing. Timiṅgila, I said the name, Timiṅgila, still exist. Rūpānuga: Still exist. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They are always existing. Water elephants. There are elephants in water. Everything. Rūpānuga: So there is no such thing as extinction. Prabhupāda: No extinction, there is no question of extinction. Rūpānuga: If these animals were on this planet some millions of years ago, they are still here, is that correct? Prabhupāda: Yes. What do you know what are there within the water? You can take information from the śāstras. It is not possible for you to see and go into the water, how big, big animals are there. Hari-śauri: But it's possible that an animal may disappear from one planet, but still be on another planet, though, like that. Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: Because they claim that even within recorded history... Prabhupāda: They claim everything. That is... There is no question. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) fossil, they are called fossil record. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. You can get a dead animal's body, but what is that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They claim that many species are extinct. Prabhupāda: How they are extinct? Hari-śauri: Well, like, they say that within modern history, Prabhupāda: First thing is they are all imperfect speculators. So what is the value of their sport? We don't take any value of it. Rūpānuga: They don't know where these animals are, that's all. Prabhupāda: They, simply like child, they are speculating. If he's imperfect, then what is the value of his speculation? There is no value. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But then what happens at the time of partial devastation? At the end of Manu, the partial devastation, what happens to the species? Prabhupāda: Happens means these different ways become destroyed, but again, during creation, they come in. Hari-śauri: The same species. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it also*-I don't know if this is speculation or not-but is it, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it also not possible, say, at the time of creation, now those material bodies are going to be created, also possible not to manifest all of them but some are not still manifested? Prabhupāda: Yes, they are created. What is the wrong there? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are created, but not all of them. Not all the bodies... Prabhupāda: Why? Why not? If some of them can be created, why not all of them? If some of them can be created, all of them can be created. Why do you say some of them can be created, not all of them? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, all of them can be created, but according to the karma*-phala, or action of the individual, so there may be some time to... *Prabhupāda: Yes. The last devastation he died, but his karma*-phala remained. So he has to appear in that form, begin his work. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in principle, at the time of creation, all forms must be created. Prabhupāda: According to... Rūpānuga: Because there is always someone to occupy some form. Prabhupāda: Someone is ready already. Rūpānuga: Waiting. *Prabhupāda: It is called suptotthita*-nyāya. Suptotthito-nyāya. Just like you are sleeping, you forget everything. And as soon as you get up, immediately remember, "I have to do this." Immediately your duty is present. Immediately you understand "I have to go here, I have to do, I have to purchase..." But while sleeping, he forgot everything. It is like that. When devastation, everything is finished. Again creation, this suptotthita-nyāya, he's coming in this body, he's coming this body, so many. Unless he has got the particular body, how he can work? Unfinished. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (to devotees): What is that examples of that plants, trees appearance? *Sadāpūta: I was thinking like in Bhāgavatam, it says Cākṣuṣa*-manvantara, Dakṣa recreated all the necessary living beings. So I was thinking it must have been that they were destroyed in a devastation and that he recreated them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sadāpūta: We were trying to see how we could explain these fossils that geologists speak of, and it seems like one way of looking at them. Prabhupāda: But their calculating mind, in whatever you explain you have to give reference to the śāstra, and they will say it is, what is called? Myth, mythology. They'll refuse immediately that thing. But you have no other source to explain. And they will take it immediately, "It is all mythology." Rūpānuga: (to Sadāpūta:) What about that chart you were working on comparing the ages, the Vedic ages and the scientists ages? Do you have that? Can we talk about that now? We should ask Śrīla Prabhupāda if there's any real parallel there. One thing we were thinking, the way they talk about time in past ages, Sadāpūta put the Vedic ages side by side with their idea and saw some comparison there, it looks like there may be some... Prabhupāda: That is the... They will take our idea as mythology, and we shall take their idea as most imperfect. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, we can argue on scientific... Prabhupāda: This is the position. Now you try to argue, but they will take everything we propose as mythology, and we will take, "Because you are rascal, whatever you say, it is all rascaldom," that's all. This is the position. "You are imperfect, rascals. So whatever you say it is all rascaldom." That is our position. And as soon as we say from śāstra, they will say it is all mythology. Then how you'll meet? This is the difference. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now we can argue that mythology is not so serious. I think we can argue on very sound logic, pointing out that their measurement of the ages are also based not on very scientific background, but there are many mistakes, and in fact there are several reports that... (end) *Morning Walk-*-July 4, 1976, Washington, D.C. (loud tape of Prabhupāda, "Hare Krishna Happening" Album, chanting in background) Rūpānuga: ...and how we danced at the end? You were dancing with karatālas when you were listening to the record. Prabhupāda: Now we have got our own studio. We also do. What is the name, Allen? Rūpānuga: Ginsberg? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Rūpānuga: Oh, Coleman. *Prabhupāda: Oh, Coleman, yes. Last time in India, he gave me twenty*-five thousand rupees. (laughs) *Rūpānuga: He did?! Wow, twenty*-five thousand! He still has the original tape of this record. Prabhupāda: Let him now do. He wanted to pay me something, but he never paid. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I sent Kṛṣṇa*-kānti, he made a, recorded this in South Africa and printed it. It's not actually legal, but we did it because we didn't think it would... This is the most wonderful record for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness because you are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So pure. Prabhupāda: Yes. Originally. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People can more appreciate Hare Kṛṣṇa than these bhajanas, because they do not understand. Prabhupāda: Bhajana, they do... [break] ...Brahmānanda, you... Rūpānuga: Brahmānanda, yes, he's singing. Satsvarūpa. Hayagrīva was there also, and Jadurāṇī was there. We were playing all kinds of instruments, all kinds of things. We were playing bells and sticks. Prabhupāda: Kīrtanānanda was playing sitar. Rūpānuga: Yes. Prabhupāda: And I was playing a broken mṛdaṅga. Rūpānuga: It was wood. Was it wooden? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they had that at the New Vrindaban farm. Rūpānuga: We had borrowed it from an Indian man. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It was a little one*-sided drum? *Rūpānuga: No, it was a big, two*-sided wooden drum. That was another drum. [break] Prabhupāda: That was 1966. Rūpānuga: This record, yes. October, November. November or December, near Christmas. Acyutānanda was there also. (walk) Prabhupāda: This building? Vipina: This is the historical building where they have the information about what this place used to be, how it used to function. Rūpānuga: When it would fill up, then they'd let the boat down inside, from one level down to the next, on down. They were small barges. Prabhupāda: This is river? Rūpānuga: Potomac River. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I was going to ask that this soul, the nature of the soul, we find that... Prabhupāda: Salt? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, no, the soul, the ātmā, jīva. We get a description that the soul, the size of a soul is one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. We were just discussing whether does this imply that it can be measured. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the measurement. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we are claiming that it is nonphysical. Prabhupāda: No, nonphysical, that doesn't mean it has no measurement. It has measurement. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So measurement... Actually, Sadāputa calculated from how much the size is. Now from electron microscope, actually we can get an idea about the tip of the hair, how much it is. Now you divide it by one ten*-thousandth part, so it (will) come out the size of the soul is about two angstroms, by calculation like that. Prabhupāda: Two atoms? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, angstroms. Angstrom is the smallest scale that science can imagine. It is smaller even than the hydrogen atom. So actually it is atomic, it is very small in size. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we were wondering whether that is reasonable. Prabhupāda: Reasonable? Yes. It is given in *Upaniṣads* and *Padma Purāṇa*, authorized. *Rūpānuga: It's just that this one ten*-thousandth tip of hair has no material quality. It is nonphysical but still can be measured. Prabhupāda: Nonphysical... Just like axiomatic truth point has no length, no breadth, but it has length and breadth. You cannot measure it. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: But does this not imply*-one ten-thousandth the size-does that not imply measurement, that it can be measured? Prabhupāda: Yes, measurement, measurement is there. This is closed? Vipina: Yes, this is the service road, but up here is a very nice way to look at the waterfall. [break] Prabhupāda: In the microbe there is soul. If it is not so small, how in the microbe there can be soul? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is small. Prabhupāda: This is the falls? Devotee: Yes. Vipina: Manmade waterfalls. Prabhupāda: Manmade? Rūpānuga: This is the dam part. The other part, this is manmade dam here. There's other parts where it flows freely. Prabhupāda: Airplanes. (laughter) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Little flies. Prabhupāda: They can manufacture airplanes like this with pilot. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they can manufacture bigger ones. Prabhupāda: That's all right, do it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What will be the technique to attract the Bengali educational class? To attract the Bengalis who are educated, what technique will be most effective? Prabhupāda: This kīrtana and prasāda distribution. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it seems to me they are not so much interested. There was a man who came from Calcutta about two months ago, a Bengali, and in fact we were class friends in Calcutta when I was studying in Calcutta. And I discussed this problem with him, why so*-called Bengali intellectuals are not attracted to our movement. And his answer was that the Caitanya movement was mostly for less intellectuals. For those who are educated, they want to be followers of Ramakrishna and Vivekananda. In fact, they have a society called Vedanta Society. All the Bengalis get together... Prabhupāda: And waste their time. The rascals waste their time. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And they discuss... So I was a little mad at him, this friend. *Prabhupāda: Because the real fact is they do not want to give up meat*-eating and fish-eating. Therefore they like Vivekananda. That is the real reason. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement, Vaiṣṇava, they have to give up so many things. That is the disease of the Bengalis. And Vivekananda is recognized only in Bengal. To some part, not all. *Vipina: There is also a small Vedanta Society here in Washington. I had one of our Indian associates, whom I hope you will be able to meet, go there, and he said they could not even discuss the topics of Bhagavad*-gītā. They had no conclusions, they were arguing in their own meeting, and no one had any idea what Bhagavad-gītā was, and so many technical points. *Prabhupāda: The meat*-eaters are the most sinful. They cannot understand. Vinā paśughnāt, nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānāt [SB 10.1.4]. They will have no access. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think there must be a fundamental mistake in their outlook. Prabhupāda: Their life is a mistake, because they are sinful. Their life is a mistake, misguided. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This fellow is a chemist, and actually he's very intelligent and he has read all the Gītās and he has studied many thoughts on Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to talk with them about this, "What is life?" Then they will talk. If they are on the bodily conception of life, they are animals, which is not. First of all, you have to talk with them on this platform, "What is life." Identification. Svarūpa Dāmodara: To me, my feeling was that they somewhat look down. They look down in their feeling. Prabhupāda: Look down? Hari-śauri: They think they are superior. Prabhupāda: But you did not talk with him and argue? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I argued. Prabhupāda: What is life. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, ultimately he has to accept that, our philosophy. Prabhupāda: They have become less intelligent on account of their bad habits. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: This man, there's a Professor Mitra, he's in Emory University in Department of Sociology. They claim he's a Vedantist, and they have a group. And this Das, actually his name was Das, he told me that he has Śrīla Prabhupāda's Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is and worships it, he recites every day. And he told me that he praises very much, that it's the best Gītā he has seen. So although he's involved in something else, but still he's taking Śrīla Prabhupāda's. Prabhupāda: Yes. Any man who is reasonable, he'll come. If he's animal, he cannot come. That is the difference. The first charge is that anyone who is in bodily concept of life, he's animal. First of all, refute. If you are thinking that "I am this body," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that," then you are animal. This is our first charge. What they will answer? What is the difference? If a dog is thinking "I am dog," and I am thinking "I am Indian" or "American," what is the difference? What is the difference between the dog and the man? That first charge should be answered. Then further questions can be... Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it seems to be that we need some strong preaching in Calcutta, in Bengal. We want to attract some intellectuals. Prabhupāda: No, there are many intellectuals. Not that... Svarūpa Dāmodara: My concern here, staying here in Atlanta, there are many Bengali families, but they never come to the temple. There was our life member program, and so many prabhus are going to make life members, and these Bengalis, they don't even have some respect. That is why I was a little, seeing their moto(?) I was a little disappointed. Prabhupāda: Because you will ask them not to eat meat, and that they cannot do. What are these? Crows? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At our Māyāpura Candrodaya Mandira, though, lakhs of people are coming. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is by the common people, ordinary people. Prabhupāda: Because they are godless, they are uncommon. Educated Bengalis, they are spoiled. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. My feeling was they do not want to stop eating meat. Prabhupāda: That is the only... Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think that is the main reason. Prabhupāda: And Vivekananda says whatever you like, you can eat. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, yata mata tata patha. They claim like this also. They follow like that. Prabhupāda: Spoiled. Bengalis are spoiled. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Our request is they should join and they should help us in spreading the mission. Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. They are narādhamas. (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 4, 1976, Washington D.C. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...punaḥ punaś carvita carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], again spend millions of dollars. And our rascal Indian leaders, they are also. What is that here, she has remarked, "Hare Kṛṣṇa cult." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh yeah, that Indian cultural organization. Rūpānuga: Who said that? Prabhupāda: One... *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have one cultural organization, they want to export yogis and teachers who they approve of, the Indian government approves of as being bona fide. Because the American government, so many people are complaining, about misrepresentation by these Indian swamis and so*-called yogis that are coming over. So they put Guru...., the Divine Light Society... Hari-śauri: They said that once this is established there won't be no room for the Divine Lightists, the Hare Kṛṣṇa cultists and like this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: TM. (indistinct) Rūpānuga: Really. Devotees: Yeah. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And they're spending... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A hundred and sixty nine lakhs. Prabhupāda: A hundred and sixty nine lakhs per year, inviting foreign countries to lecture. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And only a handful came. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only a handful they had, something like sixty people. They spent two... Prabhupāda: And what culture they'll speak? (Hindi) They can speak, "Milk is dangerous and meat is very nutritious. Kill all the cows. Oh yes, it's very scientific." This is the cult(?). "Milk is dangerous." Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they're saying that, the doctors nowadays. Rūpānuga: It's true. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember one day you retorted that. You said that "Milk is nothing but the blood of the cow transformed. And [sarcastically:] the milk is bad but the blood is good? Rūpānuga: They scare people by saying that milk helps to create heart disease, and artery disease, like that. They frighten people with that propaganda. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Meat creates cancer of the intestines. Rūpānuga: Actually, there have been some articles in papers lately about meat and cancer, linking meat and cancer. Prominent, prominently displayed articles. Prabhupāda: Then why do you give milk to the children? Give him blood. Rūpānuga: They say past a certain age... *Prabhupāda: No, no, this propaganda*-milk is bad-so why from the very beginning you give milk to the children? Rūpānuga: Actually, in America they do not feed the children by the breast. They use cow's milk practically from birth. Prabhupāda: Therefore I say... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There was an article in the newspaper about that today. Very interesting. It said in the newspaper that if women stop breast feeding their children they will have to increase the population of dairy cows tremendously. A very small percentage do now. Prabhupāda: They have to increase? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: More and more cows to produce enough milk to feed children. Prabhupāda: And therefore we are killing children. There is no problem, we shall kill our.... Why do you call? Let us kill, wholesale. And go to ball dance. Hari-śauri: The whole civilization is complete crazy. Prabhupāda: Kartikeya told me. After many years he went to see his mother, and mother was going to ball dance. And mother said, "Wait, I am coming back." And he was surprised. He told me. Son has come home after many years, and she could not talk with him. She was going to ball dance. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It actually is that way. It actually goes on that way. Prabhupāda: This is the mother. Hari-śauri: Completely callous. Rūpānuga: Not even mother love anymore. Prabhupāda: Mother killing. He was about to be killed. He admits. His grandmother advised the mother. Yes. Kṛṣṇa saved him. Because he is devotee, some way or other, he was saved. Your grandmother still living? Hari-śauri: Just. Prabhupāda: Why don't you say, (laughs) "You wanted to kill me, just see, I'm chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." Hari-śauri: I don't think it would be received very well. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: She might say, "See, I was right." Prabhupāda: Mother advising young daughter to kill her child. Rūpānuga: Actually there was a statement in the national magazine, the President's wife was advising her own daughter to the reporters that she should have illicit sex. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, this President's wife, this present First Lady is very abominable. She actually came out and said, "If I were young I would also experiment with drugs." So many things. Prabhupāda: No, why here? In India, in India, in a office, I was going there for my Back to Godhead, so the clerk had one girl, they were intimately related, and the girl's father, mother allowed. The boy was coming. And when the girl wanted to marry him, the father refused. "No, no, you cannot marry. Let him come as friend, but there is no question of marriage." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What was their purpose? Prabhupāda: Purpose is that "You are young girl, you can have a young boy as friend and have your sex, but don't talk of marriage." This is the plain fact. "You need sex? All right, keep him as friend. Marriage, that I will select a better boy. When we find, then there is question of marriage. He's a clerk, how you can be married with him? He's coming as friend. You enjoy sex, that's all." This is the.... First of all, he was ordered not to come. Then the girl began to cry. Then he allowed, "All right let him come but there is no question of marriage." Why he? Our, that (name witheld). You know? He was Ambassador in Germany. His daughter is a devotee. That boy who was selling books? (name witheld). Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (name witheld)is the girl's name. Prabhupāda: Her father said "Yes, you keep as friend, don't marry." The (name witheld), Mr.... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said that concerning (name witheld)and her? Prabhupāda: Yes. (name witheld)is living with her at her father's house. So he did not object but he objected marriage. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I heard she became impossible. (name witheld)left her. He couldn't bear associating with her. Now he's brahmacārī again. (laughter) That was one of Bhagavān's marriages that didn't work out. Rūpānuga: We were thinking that just like when you were in Moscow, some pictures were taken that were used for Back to Godhead, very good propaganda. We were thinking maybe when we go on this tour that in front of the White House maybe we could take a picture and use it in Back to Godhead in an article like that. It might be good propaganda. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do. Rūpānuga: So we were thinking we would go there to the White House on the first part, then to Capitol, second part, then around to Lincoln Memorial, then Monument for fireworks ceremony. Prabhupāda: I will go to the fireworks. (end) *Morning Walk-*-July 5, 1976, Washington, D.C. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, as young children we used to have to put our hand over our heart and say a pledge to the flag, in America. And if one didn't say it, they were thrown out of school. They changed that law now. It's not required. It used to be. Prabhupāda: Mental concoction will be changed. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. Their only business is mental concoction: today it is good, tomorrow it is bad. That is mental concoction. If mind likes it, it is good; if mind does not like it, it is bad. No standard. [break] Hari-śauri: They have hospitals for animals, if your animal gets sick. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mostly dogs and cats, birds. Hari-śauri: The animal that was making the noise was the man on the porch. (laughs) Vipina: Many people have horses in the neighborhood. They have horse shows, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They spend lots of money on fancy horses, and in this way, one becomes greater than another by showing his horses. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...slam the door. The door is secure or not? [break] ...trying to find out that happiness from this body, that is mistake. That happiness is there in the spirit soul, not this body. Happiness is our right. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). By nature, we want happiness. Mistaking, where is the happiness. The living being, he is to enjoy happiness. But they are trying to give happiness to the body, which is dead. Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ [Bg. 2.11]. The body is dead from the very beginning, but they are trying to draw happiness from the dead matter. Hari-śauri: Chewing the chewed. *Prabhupāda: Yes, and that is not being fulfilled. Therefore planning, sometimes this way, sometimes that way. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. Mental concoction. Real platform they are missing. Sometimes sitting down, sometimes... (laughter) Happiness. When tired up, then come down. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. *Hari-śauri: They come out for a quiet sit*-down in the countryside, and they bunch together, hundreds at a time. Rūpānuga: They are coming to watch the fireworks. You see, from here, the fireworks are going to be very high in the sky. They can see it from this point. [break] Prabhupāda: ...celebration, independence from our point of view? Hari-śauri: From our point of view, it doesn't have any meaning. For a conditioned soul to think that he's independent... Prabhupāda: It is foolishness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think they're free from being controlled by the British, for example. Free from being controlled. Prabhupāda: There is some meaning. That's all right. But where is your independence? You are fully under the control of the laws of nature. So where is your independence? Yadubara: There is none. Prabhupāda: Simply dog dancing is independence? Vṛṣākapi: Ultimately, they are declaring their independence of God, Kṛṣṇa. They can do as they like. Prabhupāda: Then where is that independence? You can declare anything. A crazy man can say anything, but where is your independence? Rūpānuga: In fact, they are bound up. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is the question of independence? Whatever you do not want, it is being forced upon you. So where is your independence? Nobody wants any miseries. So everyone is miserable condition. Struggle for existence means to get out of miserable condition. So where is the independence? Now there is mist. How you can say you are independent? You cannot drive this mist, this fog. Unless sun rises, it cannot be cleared. So where is your independence? There may be so many accidents. Actually, it so happens. But you do not want. But here is an unfortunate. So where is your independence? It is not under your control. If the sun rises, then it can be dissipated. Otherwise, there is no question. Poor thoughts. What is here, this park? Vṛṣākapi: That's a private community. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Perhaps everyone is hopeful that the sun will rise for them. Prabhupāda: Yes, sun is not your father's servant. He may not. It is not under your control. That is the point. You may think so. Hari-śauri: They can only be hopeful. Prabhupāda: That's it. Hope against hope. Independence means fully under your control. Whatever you like, you can do. Where is that independence? Foolishly thinking that "I am independent." Has anyone anything to say? Vṛṣākapi: I was thinking that they are talking of independence, but they cannot even become independent of old age and disease. Their body, they try to control things, but their own body is out of control. Prabhupāda: So many things. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One may say that if there's no independence, then where is the question of initiative in the material world, taking initiative? Prabhupāda: Initiative? What is that question? Initiative I understand, but do you think that by taking initiative of independence you become independent, like this, by dancing and fireworks, you become independent? This is initiative, dancing like dogs, (sings) "We are independent, we are independent." (laughter) Does it have any meaning? Dance like a dog, that's all. Hari-śauri: It's a big show, that's all. Yadubara: They will say that they can do so many things. Prabhupāda: What they can do? They cannot do anything. At any moment, you can be kicked out, "Get out." Yadubara: But they have choice within māyā. Isn't that a fact? Prabhupāda: Choice? Yadubara: Choice what to do in the material world, many different fields. They will say that they can do this or that. Prabhupāda: Many fields, that is also conditioned. That is conditioned, that is not independence. Hari-śauri: One has choice to become a dog or a cat, or... *Prabhupāda: Everything is conditioned. Therefore it is called conditioned life. There is no question of independence. That is foolishness. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, that they are not independent, completely under the control of laws of material nature, and still they are thinking independent. Rūpānuga: It is like a prisoner in the prison house thinking he has some freedom. Prabhupāda: That freedom is danda jane raja jana nadi secu bhau.(?) Drowning the man in the water and, "Now you have independence, so breathe." (laughter) So he breathes in, "Ah! Ah!" "All right, you are now a little relieved, all right, again. Again become drown." "Oh! Save me, save me, save me, save me." "All right," take out, "now breathe, independently." This is independence. Danda jane raj jana nadi secu bhai.(?) The rascal does not know "I am breathing independent, but at any moment I can be drowned again." Very correct example, danda jane raja jana nadi secu bhai.(?) No independence. Independence is only there when you fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa. You surrender your all independence to Kṛṣṇa. Then there is. "Kṛṣṇa, I have foolishly acted as independent, so many lives. Now I surrender all my independence at Your lotus feet. If You like, You can kill me; *if You like, You can...," that is independence. Otherwise, there is no independence. All foolishness. Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā. By false egotism, he's thinking that "I am independent." Rūpānuga: Misusing. Prabhupāda: Misusing the energy. Yesterday, some two and half million the government has spent, and we also, combined together, we have spent ten million by power, gas, going there and coming. So many cars. Another ten million. So all these twelve million, three, thirteen million dollars spent for nothing. Dancing like dogs, independence, māyā. [break] (out of car) Ask him this question. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda was saying in the car that yesterday the American people were declaring their independence. So he's asking what is the value to it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the value of it? They are enjoying their senses. Prabhupāda: Now dog dancing. What is that song? Dog dancing? I sang that song? Hari-śauri: (sings) "We are independent, we are independent." Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) That is the spirit of patriotism. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you can say any name, any style or any trademark. Where is the independence? That is the question. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But Śrīla Prabhupāda blessed yesterday around the Capitol. There were so many people, and they seemed like they liked... Prabhupāda: So many people, there are so many earthworms also. Ants also, gathered together. Does it mean they are independent? Hare Kṛṣṇa. You know the earthworms? They heap up earth and disappear. So you are, if you take it in that way, that big, big buildings, just like earthworms gathering up earth and then disappears. Actually that is the... Like the worms, we gather together and become a nation and apply all our energy, heaps of buildings, then finished. We go somewhere, you go somewhere. And who knows what he's going to be next life? Everything is going like that, family, community, national. Like the same earthworm, they gather so much huge dipi..., what is called dipi (?)in English? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some sort of manure. Prabhupāda: We are dipi. (?)We are dipi. We dipi. You have seen? Devotee: Teepee? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, big heaps, mountains, hills? Prabhupāda: Not hills. Anyway, small or big, they gather together and then goes away, finished by the laws of nature. Washington, he gave you independence, but where he is? What he is doing? Where is that person who gave you independence? Vipina: Would you like to walk this way today, Prabhupāda? Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a basic difference between the earthworm and the man. Prabhupāda: No difference. It is also living entity, you are also living entity. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But difference in the sense that the earthworm is, actually, it is not trying to violate the laws of nature. Just follows. Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, the process of life is the same, biological. These rascals say that there is no soul of the animal, but is it correct biologically? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is biologically wrong. Prabhupāda: Yes, you see the way physical and atomical constitution of the animal and the man, the same. If you say man has soul, then the animal has also soul. If you deny that man has no soul, then you can also deny. But so far physiological... They, in the biological laboratory, they dissect the frogs to see the similar arrangement. So how you can you say the frog has no soul? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, on Saturday Svarūpa Dāmodara was talking about the scientific proof of the Absolute Truth from the Kṛṣṇa conscious point of view. When one realizes Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute Truth, does one also see like how the physical world is manifesting itself? Do we understand all physical laws, how chemicals are combining, or...? What do we actually understand when we understand the Absolute Truth? Prabhupāda: Absolute Truth, there is direction. Scientific explanation is... You were showing the picture that everything is being performed under some direction, not whimsically. Therefore there is somebody dictating. Sadāpūta: You see the cause of everything? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Vipina: These are the natural falls here, Prabhupāda, not manmade. Prabhupāda: Ah, where? Vipina: Not manmade. [break] It is not necessary to take millions of years for life to develop, because within five days an egg is there and life is being manifest. But scientists are saying it took millions of years to come to that stage where in five days it would only take life to become manifest. *Prabhupāda: Then why you are waiting millions of years? Accept that millions of years passed, now let us have it in five days. Why you are again asking to wait for millions of years? If it has passed? Rascal. From the sky, Atlantic, wherefrom... Big, big chunks like mountains constantly coming, cut*-cut-cut-cut-cut-cut. In Canada, big, big chunks. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ice? Prabhupāda: Ice, flood, every second. Hari-śauri: Down the fall? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not from Canada, somewhere else, the Atlantic. And it is falling in the Atlantic Ocean. That broke the Titanic. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, iceberg. Prabhupāda: Yes, iceberg. Throughout the whole year, every second coming. [break] ...trees have fallen are grown like that? Vṛṣākapi: Old trees, Śrīla Prabhupāda, dead ones. Prabhupāda: So the fall goes that side? *Rūpānuga: Yes. There's another place*-I'm not exactly sure; *I think it's down much further*-where there's much bigger falls. This is just a small place. It's not the main falls. We can go there on another walk, I think, if you want to see the big falls. Prabhupāda: Chicken is giving life to the egg within five days, and you are scientist, you have to wait for millions of years. So chicken is better than you. (laughter) Why, rascal, you claim as scientist? Better, a chicken is better than you. Chicken is giving just after sitting on the egg. In five days, there is living entity. You rascal, you have to wait. So why you talk? Better don't talk. It is better not to talk than to talk foolish. Where is the scientist? Svarūpa Dāmodara: If they don't talk, then don't get jobs. Prabhupāda: That's it. Then they'll say plainly that "I'm hungry; give some food. Then I'll not talk nonsense. Give me some food." That's all. Take it. Tell the truth. Svarūpa Dāmodara: If they talk these things, they can get money from the government, millions of dollars. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So instead of talking all nonsense, tell freely that "I am hungry, give me some food." Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, that's what happens in principle. *Prabhupāda: They have finished all their talks. So far as I know, these so*-called scientists, they have finished their business. Now they have no other means than to bluff. To get their salary. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, actually the research is also getting more and more difficult. Prabhupāda: Yes, what they'll research? Everything finished. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Their imagination is running out. Prabhupāda: That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the ideas are running out. That's why now they are doing on the biological sciences mainly. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is another nonsense. Why they are checking the flow? Vipina: The water is too rough for the boats to travel, so they made this artificial canal so boats could travel without getting wrecked, and they could transport their items of sense gratification in that way. They used to have mules that pulled the boats with ropes alongside here, these pathways, pulled them through the canal. Prabhupāda: It will grow mosquitoes, mosquito plant. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mosquitoes. When the devotees came back from India, many got malaria, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I think we got to do something next year. Prabhupāda: Get a mosquito curtain. That's all. Get a mosquito curtain. In India everywhere there is mosquito. I think in your country also. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes, many mosquitoes. They are also in Florida, many mosquitoes, when it rains. Prabhupāda: Tropical climate, there is mosquitoes. [break] That is falls? Hari-śauri: No, it's just a ravine. Sadāpūta: One of the members of the temple here, Prabhupāda, is a doctor, and he was doing some research into malaria, saying that many of the chemicals that they were using to kill these mosquitoes in India are becoming ineffectual. And now the mosquitoes are bigger and they aren't able to control it, so malaria is going to be a problem during the breeding season this year, much worse problem they've created for themselves. Prabhupāda: There is a place in India, Jabalpura, there is a fall passing, Narmada, and these stones are all marble, first class. Very nice place. I went there. Hari-śauri: You mentioned in Hawaii how there are planets where instead of having grains of sand on the beach, they have jewels. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jewels. Sadāpūta: Some scientists find it hard to understand the description of different planets wherein there are oceans of milk, because we know that there's oceans of water here, and that water has to be there to create rain... Prabhupāda: So why the rascal carry this idea there? Has he seen everything? Sadāpūta: No, but he cannot understand how an ocean... Prabhupāda: So how he can understand? He's a fool. How he can understand? [break] ...into the moon planet, what does he understand about water there? There are so many millions and trillions of planets. How he can understand what is there? Devotee (1): Where did the astronauts go? Prabhupāda: They'll go to hell (laughter). To pick up some sand, as if sand is not there. Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is māyā especially empowering the scientists to come up with nonsense? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sadāpūta: It is all coming from Kṛṣṇa, though, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you want to be fool, Kṛṣṇa makes you a better fool. Sadāpūta: He's also the greatest cheat. Prabhupāda: [break] ...to become devotee. And if you want to become rogue, He'll give you all facility to become rogue. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. He's so kind. Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we're doing all these studies about science from a Kṛṣṇa conscious point of view, and yet the gopīs didn't care anything for this; they just simply wanted to love Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: They did not care for anything except Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are all perfect. Harer nāma harer nāma [Ādi 17.21]. *Sadāpūta: Do we accept the way bacteria's reproduce, by fission, splitting in half? I know Kapiladeva instructs there are four different methods*-the egg, the lump of flesh, etc. The scientists are saying that bacteria split in half and produce two daughter cells. *Prabhupāda: Bacteria is produced from fermentation. Sveda*-ja. Just like nasty bedding, from your perspiration, if you don't clean, then bugs will come. Sveda-ja. In India, the Europeans they eat meat, and automatically bugs and germs come within their coat and shirt due to bad perspiration. Hari-śauri: When you say that they're born from perspiration like cockroaches, does that mean that the eggs are laid by the female and then the atmosphere of perspiration enables the eggs to be hatched? Like that? Prabhupāda: No, from the perspiration automatically it comes. Sadāpūta: Prabhupāda, we say that everything is situated on desire, and as a person surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11], He rewards accordingly. But people don't understand. Just like if there's a mother and father, and the child is not doing well, they try to mold that child's desire properly, the way that they see as proper. Prabhupāda: Yes, He's coming, Kṛṣṇa, personally, "Rascal, give up all these ideas. Surrender to Me." But who is accepting it? He's coming for this purpose; *He's leaving His instruction, Bhagavad*-gītā; He's sending His devotee; but who is caring to accept that? He's very much anxious to do good to you. If you don't accept, what can be done? Vipina: In the case of a devotee... Prabhupāda: Devotees, they accept. Therefore they are happy. And they'll be happy. They'll go back to home happy. One who accepts, he becomes happy. Vipina: Well, in the case where a devotee is definitely sincerely following your instructions and applying himself to all these principles that Kṛṣṇa has outlined, then when there's difficulty for him, how is he to understand that? *Prabhupāda: He cannot understand immediately. He must be patient. Utsāhān dhairyāt. Dhairya means patience. He cannot, if you have sown some seed, you cannot expect immediately tree and fruits. You must wait. You must nourish the plant, water it. Śravaṇa*-kīrtana-jale karaye secana [Cc. Madhya 19.152]. Vipina: But if there is some difficulty that causes so much trouble in your service... Prabhupāda: That is impatience. That is impatience. Either he does not do properly his duty, or he is impatient. Hari-śauri: Impatience means fruitive. Fruitive. He's looking for some results. Prabhupāda: Immediate result, immediately. Vipina: But isn't there a point, Prabhupāda, at which, you know, you can expect that you've been doing the right things, so there should be some relief? Prabhupāda: Everything takes time. Suppose a girl is married. So she wants a child. It does not mean today she's married and next day child. It is not possible. Wait. You'll have child. Devotee (1): That is faith, Prabhupāda? If the woman has faith in the husband...? Prabhupāda: Faith or no faith, if they live husband and wife, there will be child. That's all. [break] Vipina: That's why they had to build this canal, because it was too rocky for boats. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...potency of hari*-nāma-kīrtana, everyone will join. We have to be sincerely working, then everything... Kṛṣṇa will. Natural, even child, drunkard, sane man, everyone was. Vipina: Yes, they were all dancing. Prabhupāda: The proof was there. Vipina: You said last night that actually they all want to dance, but they're artificially checking. [break] Prabhupāda: Birth, death. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: I saw Niagara Falls, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I have seen. Svarūpa Dāmodara: You have seen? How do you like it? Prabhupāda: Oh, very nice. The water is very clean. Īśāna took me there when I was (at) Buffalo. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's the biggest fall in the world. Prabhupāda: Biggest fall? Devotees: No. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No? Prabhupāda: No, I have seen in Jabalpura, that is also very big fall. Hari-śauri: There is one in Africa as well. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Victoria Falls. I've seen that. It's a mile wide. Prabhupāda: Vancouver. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Victoria, Rhodesia. Hari-śauri: In Africa there's a very big fall. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's not the biggest one either though. The biggest fall is in Venezuela. Vipina: Might be some on some other planets we don't know about. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Has there ever been debates on the authenticity of modern science, or is this the first time modern science has been challenged in the world? *Prabhupāda: India, Vedic civilization never cared for anything which is searched out by imperfect human beings. They never cared for it. Because he knows the man who is searching after, he's imperfect. Whatever he'll do, that is imperfect. Therefore neglect it. That is Vedic civilization. Śruti*-pramāṇa: whether it is evident from the śrutis, from the Vedas. Otherwise, they reject it. *Vipina: Prabhupāda, if spiritual life and Kṛṣṇa are stronger than māyā, then how is it that religion was ever overcome to the extent it is now? In Kali*-yuga it's so much neglected, whereas in past ages we learn that it wasn't neglected. How is it that māyā got such a stronghold? *Prabhupāda: There is a time, just like young man and old man. Old man is dwindling, young man is growing. It is a question of time. Kali*-yuga is bad time. Therefore māyā has got chance to flourish. Hari-śauri: Eight minutes to seven, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If those people in India who are aware of the actual science, though, if they had come out and spoken against material scientists... Prabhupāda: I am speaking. Vṛṣākapi: You're the only one though, Prabhupāda. Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one problem we face with students and scientists, when we present Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy, they say... Prabhupāda: No, no. We don't condemn the scientists. We say that "Take credit as much as you can. But why do you defy the existence of God?" That is our protest. Sadāpūta: They want to be God. Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. *Devotee (1): Is Kali*-yuga the age when desires become manifest like this? Prabhupāda: Answer him. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In other words, the question is that do people who have such types of low*-grade desires take birth in the Kali-yuga. So the question is that, naturally, yes, everyone is taking birth according to their karma. But we can change our destiny by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like if a sick man is offered medicine, so if he takes medicine, then he can become cured from his disease. Similarly, Kali-yuga means very high temperature, and the medicine is there in the form of the holy name, harer nāma [Ādi 17.21]. So we have to take advantage. Otherwise everyone in Kali-yuga is condemned. Prabhupāda: Have we not published that "You have created 747. All right, take credit. But you cannot make a mosquito with pilot. Can you?" "No." "So why..., how can you defy the supreme creator?" We are taking it, there is supreme creator. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That basic point they find it hard to understand. Prabhupāda: No. Because they are blind. It is common sense, that you have created the 747. So somebody must have created this, a small insect. This is common sense. You cannot see Him: that is your bad fortune. But somebody has done it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that's our logic. Vṛṣākapi: To be able to be so fooled, that is the greatest wonder, how it's so obvious that there's a creator, but yet one can say there is no creator. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That we are protesting, that "You rascal, you stop this nonsense talking." There is son and there is mother; there must be father. This is conclusion. And "I do not see father. I do not see that." But without father, how there can be son? This is intelligence. Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, one the one hand you say the scientists are rascals, and on the other you say not to condemn them. *Prabhupāda: No, the rascal means when they say there is no God. Then they are rascals. Here is a scientist*-he does not say that there is no God. Anyone who says there is no God, he's a rascal. He may be scientist, philosopher, or anyone. (break-back in car) Hari-śauri: I'm a bit puzzled about this, these entities that are born from perspiration, like that. It seems that there's no father and mother, yet like we were just using the argument that there must be a father and mother. Prabhupāda: No, there is father and mother. The supreme father is Kṛṣṇa, and mother is nature, ultimately. So perspiration is also another form of nature. Yes. There's always father and mother. Yadubara: There's no material father, though? In that case? Prabhupāda: Material father is not material. Real father is Kṛṣṇa. He may come in so many ways. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The thing is that the scientists may isolate some cockroaches in a box, and they will watch the cockroaches secrete eggs and this or that or whatever*-I don't know exactly how the cockroaches... Prabhupāda: Not, give up cockroach. There are many other living entities, they come from perspiration. Take for..., bugs. Bugs, they come from perspiration. Many, many come by fermentation. Hari-śauri: Yes, but it seems that form of the bug must come from the form of another bug. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: So it's very difficult to understand how it comes from perspiration. Prabhupāda: The form is coming directly. Why from another? The form is, the birth is coming directly. Hari-śauri: From the perspiration. Prabhupāda: And those who are coming, they will take that form, buglike form, and drink blood. That is all destined. Hari-śauri: So just like a spirit soul, say, in a human form. Prabhupāda: Spirit soul, according to his desires, he's gotten that body. But that body is coming from perspiration. That is the way. Hari-śauri: So like in our case, the spirit soul takes shelter in the semen. Prabhupāda: Yes, according to his desire he's given shelter to such and such place, and he comes out with body. Hari-śauri: And in that case he take shelter in the perspiration. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Daiva*-netreṇa. That is by superior administration, he has to take shelter and take out the body, come and act. It requires little brain. The dull meat-eaters cannot understand, the drunkards and meat-eaters. Rūpānuga: They do not even know about that kind of birth. Hari-śauri: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: No, even in their meat there will be so many germs. What they know? Rūpānuga: The common people think that by cooking the meat they kill so many worms and germs in their meat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: But studies have shown that certain worms and germs are not killed, and they are ingested into the body and cause diseases. Prabhupāda: You take the yogurt, even by microscope, you see so many germs. Hari-śauri: Yogurt is made by... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even a drop of water there is... Prabhupāda: Bacteria. Lactic acid. Bacteria. Rūpānuga: I've seen that these cattle that are raised for eating, they are not like dairy cows. Dairy cows are much cleaner. Beef cattle are very dirty animals. They have no clean habits. They are almost like pigs. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Still, they should be protected, though. They should be used for plowing. Prabhupāda: No, if they are not cows, there is no need of protection. When gives milk, that is cow. Rūpānuga: These animals are created by man actually. History... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But it would have been a bull. Prabhupāda: Bull also required, because cows alone cannot give milk unless united with bull. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The philosophy now with the farmers is that if there's a bull born, generally they kill it. Prabhupāda: That is the law in England. You cannot keep a bull. Hari-śauri: The only reason they keep a male animal is just for meat. Bullocks, one year old, and then they send them to the slaughterhouse. Prabhupāda: Everywhere, in India, they require bulls and... Generally, they are not inclined to kill. So they are engaged in... *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But otherwise, when Kṛṣṇa says go*-rakṣya, He means the female, the cow, giving milk. Rūpānuga: Actually, in these beef animals, if... Prabhupāda: Go means species, means both bull and cow, but generally go means cow. Hari-śauri: Of the two, the cow is the more important because it gives milk. Rūpānuga: One thing is these beef cows, the female, they only produce enough milk for a little offspring. They have made it like that. You cannot get enough milk from them. They have little bags, only just for their own offspring. They have made it like that. Prabhupāda: Manmade. Rūpānuga: Yes, a manmade idea. Hari-śauri: How does that fit in with the species of life, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when they combine two different species, artificial? *Prabhupāda: You can make, by arrangement, artificial, cross*-breeding. Hari-śauri: But that cannot be counted as one of the 8,400,000 forms. I was thinking last night when we were coming down this road that it's very nice and smooth, but then I thought you were saying the other morning that in the heavenly planets they are made from coral and so many different things. Here we're using tarmac. Prabhupāda: The more you go higher planetary system, the standard of living is many, many thousand times better than this. Many, many thousand times. Rūpānuga: We can't even imagine it now. Hari-śauri: What to speak of the spiritual world. Prabhupāda: Just suppose here are stones, there are pearls. You cannot imagine. Hari-śauri: Lying on the roadside. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...Western scientists, philosophers, they are all Dr. Frogs. They simply calculating three feet water, that's all. As soon as you speak to them about Atlantic Ocean, they say, "Oh, it is impossible." Froggish brain. [break] ...word has come, kūpa*-māṇḍūkya-nyāya, the frog in the well. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda, is that example also given in the Bhāgavatam? Frog in the well? Sometimes you use all these different examples, and they are all there in the Bhāgavatam. I was just wondering if this frog in the well was also there. Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: You use very graphic examples; they're very perfect. Prabhupāda: No, my Guru Mahārāja used to use to place so many examples, (laughs) I do not know all of them. No, there is a book, Nyāya-śāstra, logic. You'll find all these things. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that the Nīti-śāstra? Prabhupāda: Nīti-śāstra is different. This is Nyāya-śāstra. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Logic. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a student. Prabhupāda: Yes, logician. (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 5, 1976, Washington, D.C. Prabhupāda: First try to point out as many as you can. And our view is they are wholesale mistaken. They are imperfect, speculating. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's one strange point here about calculating this that dawn of Brahmā about two billion years old. Now strangely these geological calculations, they also claim that at that time the first free oxygen in the air appeared, first time. The beginning there was no free oxygen. We can accept that? (laughter) Now from here, anyway, this is the basic point, that once this oxygen appeared, free oxygen, then the living entities began to appear slowly. That is the whole theory of this chemical evolution. The results for the chronology is just put it that dawn of Brahmā is two billion years old? Prabhupāda: You can carefully read the Second Canto, *Bhāgavatam*, Third Canto. You'll get all the knowledge, how things develop. It is a question of development. So maybe there was something missing, but after development it is manifested there. That is possible. *Rūpānuga: In the day of, one day of Brahmā, there are fourteen Manus. And in the course of creation, re-creation of the same species from the previous day-they are re-creating the same species*-it takes, there's some time, maybe one Manu, there's some species that are finished, but the next Manu... Prabhupāda: That doesn't mean time. What is this Manu? Rūpānuga: No, no, I'm saying this is what really happened, right? So we were thinking that we could show one day, this is one day, one day of Brahmā... Prabhupāda: No, you do not think what is actually there, you can say. You do not be a speculator. Rūpānuga: No, no, but from the *Bhāgavatam* we have taken it, and broken down the day of Brahmā. Prabhupāda: Whether they will accept it or not, that is the question. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We don't worry about whether they accept it or not. Prabhupāda: That is, but we have taken that they are talking all nonsense. And whatever we present, they'll take it as mythology. Rūpānuga: But like Mādhava Prabhu pointed out, we have to make some explanation. We should explain because they... Prabhupāda: That you do, but the position is like this. Our conclusion is that whatever they are saying, that is imperfect. That is not possible. And that is a fact. Therefore they change, after fifty years, they change. Because it's speculation. Therefore we say totally they are wrong, and they will take totally "From mythology," like that, this is going on. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now one aspect in that, now in Christian group also, some are trying to preach that these things are created by God, but they have a problem there. *Prabhupāda: That's a fact, everything is created by God. It is being done by one, that Supreme. We are simply studying how it is acting. Otherwise everything is being done by Him. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. That is a fact. How He is working so nicely, that is the subject matter of our study, or something is explained in the śāstra or something has been studied by these material scientists, but the things are being done by the supreme arrangement of manager. That is a fact. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The difficulty in this Christian aspect is that they claim that it was created about five thousand years ago. That is the reason why we want to bring up this... Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. (laughter) Rūpānuga: These Creationists preach that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Creationists. Rūpānuga: Gish(?) preaches that? Five thousand years ago, literally? Do we want to make this comparison, Śrīla Prabhupāda, or not? Prabhupāda: Why you are going to fight with them? Rūpānuga: No, no. We don't fight. We're just saying that they are using all the good arguments already, but they are making that one mistake. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Fundamental mistake, there. So if we bring up this, scientist are going to believe here, more likely to believe, because this is (indistinct) in the time range that they are talking about. Prabhupāda: So long. As soon as there is five thousand years, they will (indistinct). The Christian theory used to say that the world is flat. So what is the value of their words? There is no value. You do not try to compromise with others. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, we are not compromising with anybody. Prabhupāda: You present your own as it is *Bhāgavatam*, try to explain them to your best capacity scientifically. If you bring this, bring that... All of them are imperfect. So what is the use of wasting time with something which is imperfect? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We want to demonstrate that those points are imperfect. Prabhupāda: Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We want to demonstrate, though, that those points are imperfect. Prabhupāda: That you can do, but you must know they are all imperfect. Five thousand years! We can give history of millions and millions of years. And what was before five thousand years, there was no, nothing? What is their (indistinct), reply? Svarūpa Dāmodara: What do they say, the Christians? Sadāpūta: They don't say too much. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Want to make any more points along that line? Rūpānuga: One thing is, just like here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, these are our Manus, the real situation, right? And their time scale begins back here, Cambrian Age. Back here in Vaivasvata Manu's age, according to Veda. So we were showing, we made the actual time scale, and showed how their time scale only went back one or two Manus. (aside) Is that right? How many Manus? Two. *Prabhupāda: What Manus? There is seventy*-two into 432,000 years. So they are calculating five thousand years... What is this nonsense? Rūpānuga: No, the Christians calculate, but the others, they go back more than that time. The scientists... These Christians are not accepted so much as.... They're not included in scientific knowledge; they are considered something else. Prabhupāda: My point is that the Christian theory is also imperfect and the scientists also imperfect. Rūpānuga: We can show both. Prabhupāda: If you can show that, that is all right. Rūpānuga: That is why we made this chart... Prabhupāda: That is all right. Rūpānuga: ...to show... Prabhupāda: Show them imperfect. That will be... [break] Actually they're imperfect. Just like they say five thousand years, a ludicrous. They, and the scientists say that the stratum of earth, what is called? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Strata, layers. Prabhupāda: Layers. And I was telling my colleague that stratus, the layers so perfect that everywhere, say five inches, just like it appears somebody has laid down. Is it not? Rūpānuga: Yes. Layer upon layer. *Prabhupāda: Yes, one after another, the same height, same color, the same ingredient*-how it comes to happen? And they give history of millions of years? And these people say five thousand. Sadāpūta: We were wondering about those strata. We were wondering if maybe those could be masses of sediment deposited... Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the side height of the strata is the same for miles together. As if somebody very intelligently laid down. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So how do we explain that? Prabhupāda: That I want. (laughter) How they can say five thousand years? Things are going on for millions and millions of years. Sadāpūta: The geologists say that in different strata, they give names for the strata, and in one strata they say that there is one type of animal remains to be found, and another strata they say you find the remains of a different kind of animal. So they say this shows evolution. Prabhupāda: Anyway, it takes millions of years. So how they say five thousand years? Sadāpūta: Well, no one really believes the Christians. Rūpānuga: They are laughed at actually. The scientists, how far do they say? Five hundred million? Sadāpūta: The scientists say it goes back six hundred million years. *Prabhupāda: That is also imperfect. If we study Brahmā's day, it will be all... Brahmā's day is, one day equal to forty*-three hundred thousands of years multiplied by thousand, that is Brahmā's one day. So thirty days, one month, and twelve months equal to year, such hundred years. Your mathematics will fail to figure out. Is it not? (laughter) Rūpānuga: There is a slide of this, but we did not show you. The idea is that this is the beginning of Brahmā's day up to present, Vaivasvata Manu. This is the beginning of time according to them. They can't explain anything up to here. They say here, in the middle of the day of Raivata Manu, they begin their Cambrian Age. Prabhupāda: No, why Raivata Manu? They are imperfect. Rūpānuga: We're here, and this is the previous Manu, and before him the other Manu, and it's back here that they say their geological records begin. Prabhupāda: Whatever they say, whatever we say, which one is correct? Who will say? Rūpānuga: We will say. We are correct. Prabhupāda: You'll say, they will say "I am correct." Rūpānuga: Then the reader must decide. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We will say that they are wrong and we want to find out the reason for that. Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Svarūpa Dāmodara: From here to here is the chemical evolution, there's a long gap. Sadāpūta: I was wondering, perhaps these periods that they have here correspond with some of these floods, like this is between two Manus and there is a flood of the whole world, and that might pile up a huge layer of mud and rock. And I was thinking that might correspond with some of these layers here because they are filled with remains of fish that look as though they were buried, things like that. Prabhupāda: That is also imagination. Again you are bringing imagination, speculation. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So actually it's very subtle and critical. Prabhupāda: As soon as you bring your imaginations, they'll bring their own imagination. "Perhaps," "It may be," they say Rūpānuga: Our imagination is as good as your imagination. Prabhupāda: We are to take the Vedic injunction axiomatic. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So how do we, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we're talking about all these things, this time, and we just give our time scale from Brahmā, that's perfectly, that is on Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Rūpānuga: We know from *Bhāgavatam*, it tells what creations went on during these periods, we can show the real creation of the universe, not that we care about their ideas. But these different Manus, there were different species created. Like Dakṣa recreated a time. From one Manu to the next the species were recreated again by him, we can show that in this chart. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But one problem that we're going to encounter, always though, this will come up, they will bring up this thing. Rūpānuga: We just say your time starts only not long enough ago and ours goes back to the beginning of the day. We can criticize them that theirs does not go back far enough. What else can we say? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We will fight. Hari-śauri: You made a good point yesterday when you were seeing the slideshow that how can they possibly calculate a time like two million years or two billion years when they only live fifty or sixty years themselves? How can they possibly come up with a calculation like that? Rūpānuga: To verify, scientific, they cannot measure it. But our information comes from persons who were living at those times. They lived, historical persons. We don't need some modern man who lives fifty years to tell us what happened fifty million years ago. We know someone who was there. That is our advantage. Devotee: Jaya, thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 5, 1976, Washington D.C. Prabhupāda: One, the origin of life, and the other, planetary system. There is no knowledge. They are simply speculating. Rākṣana: It is correct that the illumination of the moon is caused by the movement of the vegetation on the surface? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rākṣana: So it should be fairly easy for scientists to prove, Svarūpa Dāmodara and such, that.... I know they can't prove there is illumination caused by the deserts. Prabhupāda: That is the point. Therefore it is doubtful whether they have gone there. Devotee (1): Did they go to some other planet, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That is different question. But they did not go to the moon planet. Vipina: In the *Bhāgavatam* you also explain that the moon is about 1,600,000 miles away, so they couldn't have gone. It's beyond the sun, you said, Prabhupāda? [break] Devotee (2): ...rectifying the senators and congressmen, is there much hope in talking to them? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The politicians in Washington. He would like to know if it's worthwhile talking to them, preaching to them. Devotee (3): Much hope talking to people like that? Prabhupāda: He wants to talk? Devotee (3): Yes, I want to talk to them. Prabhupāda: No, no. He wants to talk or you want to talk? Devotee (2): I want to talk to them. Prabhupāda: No. Rūpānuga: I tried that, Srila Prabhupāda. It wasn't very successful. They're not serious. They shake hands and smile, but they don't want to talk any business. Hari-śauri: They're so filled up with diplomacy anyway, it's impossible for them to understand anything. [break] Devotee (2): If "Hare" means energy of the Lord, what energy is that? Prabhupāda: Reply someone. Hari-śauri: "Hare" refers to spiritual potency of Kṛṣṇa, Śrīmatī Rādhārānī. You can't approach Kṛṣṇa directly; you have to go by the mercy of Rādhārānī. So when you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa you're asking Śrīmatī Rādhārānī to engage you in Kṛṣṇa's service. Devotee (2): I heard on a tape, Srila Prabhupāda, you were talking about the same thing, and you happened to mention that Hare meant the energy of the Lord in terms of māyā and that we were calling upon to free us from her clutches. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We call upon Kṛṣṇa to become free from māyā because Kṛṣṇa is the master of māyā. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ [Bg. 9.10]. Devotee (3): (indistinct) can be cured by the chanting of the holy names of the Lord. But if it's necessary that the senses be controlled and the mind be controlled to understand spiritual subject matter, how is it that a person whose mind is completely out of his control, by chanting the holy name of the Lord can become spiritually advanced? [break] Devotee (4): We will go on ten thousands years and they are celebrating two hundred years' anniversary. Maybe they'll go on another hundred years, maybe. Already there is a big decline in their civilization. We are just coming alive, being born. We have a great future. For the Bicentennial they made a big cake five building stories high, and they brought it in big trucks. Prabhupāda: Cake? Devotee (4): Big cake, birthday cake for America. And then the health department came and condemned it after people had been standing three, four hours in line to get a piece, because it had gone stale. [break] *Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla-*-July 5, 1976, Washington, D.C. Dr. Sukla: There are certain hymns in *Vedas* which are so personal and... And I don't find anything in *Vedas* impersonal. As a matter of fact... *Prabhupāda: No, no, impersonal there is. Impersonal means negation of this material thing. Neti neti, "Not this." Impersonal means not this material person. That is impersonal. Kṛṣṇa is person, but in order to convince people that He's person but not a material person, the material things have to be negated. That is Upaniṣad. Just to evade the material conception of the Absolute. But ultimately He's person. Brahmaṇo 'ham pratiṣṭhā. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad*-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣu [Bs. 5.40]. These things are there. So in order to substantiate the Supreme Person as completely spiritual, the material conception of personality is rejected. That is impersonal. Nirguṇa means He has no material qualities. Bhakta-vatsala, Kṛṣṇa is bhakta-vatsala. That is not material quality, that is spiritual quality. So negation of material understanding is impersonal. But when one is fully in awareness of Kṛṣṇa, His spiritual identity, then again He's person. *Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda gave the example this morning that something which is personal can speak, like Kṛṣṇa spoke Bhagavad*-gītā, Kṛṣṇa's described in Bhagavad-gītā as the Supreme. But we don't have any experience of something impersonal like the sky speaking to us. So if the Supreme is impersonal, how is it that Bhagavad-gītā is spoken by Him? Dr. Sukla: Māyāvādīs like Swami Vivekananda, he questions "Who was Lord Kṛṣṇa?" Was Kṛṣṇa King of Dvārakā or anybody else, he don't know even that. Prabhupāda: He's a fool. He does not know, therefore other does not know. It is not the fact. He's a fool, he does not know. *Dr. Sukla: He does not know. He said that Gītā is karma*-yoga, and writes volumes and volumes... *Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is his foolishness. Gītā is completely bhakti*-yoga. Sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Everything is finished. And what is karma-yoga? What is karma-yoga? Dr. Sukla: According to these Māyāvādīs... *Prabhupāda: Not according, according to Bhagavad*-gītā. *Dr. Sukla: According to Bhagavad*-gītā, all the karma should be done for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Prabhupāda: For Kṛṣṇa, yes. So that is bhakti*-yoga. Yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam. That is bhakti. Karma-yoga means bhakti. That is the difficulty, that these Māyāvādīs, they have killed India's Vedic civilization. Now India is atheist. Very tragic position. Dr. Sukla: What are your plans for India? *Prabhupāda: We are pushing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is being appreciated. It will take some time. Because so much mischievous activities have been done by the Māyāvādīs, to counteract, it will take some time. They are simply mischievous. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has rejected them. Māyāvādī bhāṣya sunile haya sarva*-nāśa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. If one takes the Māyāvādī version of the śāstras, then his spiritual life is finished. He becomes atheist. His spiritual life is finished. Now what is the contribution? You talked about Vivekananda, what is his contribution? Dr. Sukla: Nothing. *Prabhupāda: Nothing. Simply he has taught the sannyāsīs to eat meat. That is his contribution. He says there is no harm eating meat. This is going on. Nārāyaṇa has become daridra. Daridra*-nārāyaṇa, these are Vivekananda's contribution. And spoiled India's spiritual tradition. He has created one illiterate priest as God. That is his contribution, if we become honest to understand. So it will take some time to counteract all these mischievous activity. Simply mischievous. Devotee (1): How is it that these men are so attractive to the Indian people? Prabhupāda: They have become fools. Fool's paradise, they have been made. Dr. Sukla: Because Vivekananda became very popular in America, and... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Who became popular in America? Dr. Sukla: Vivekananda. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No he didn't. That's just propaganda. Dr. Sukla: That's propaganda, yes, but... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: : I never heard of Vivekananda until I went to Bengal. Devotee (1): The Vedanta Society was formed... Prabhupāda: No, no, the other day we spoke that... Now in Vṛndāvana, you know we have got our temple. So the Ramakrishna Mission, they have got their temple also. In our temple, thousands and thousands of these Americans came, and not a single one went here. If they had preached anything, then why these American boys and girls are not interested, "Let us see where the Ramakrishna Mission stays." They do not know even. There are many present here who went to Vṛndāvana, and none of them were interested to see. Why? lf there was any propaganda... This is practical proof. Why none of them were interested, "Oh, here is also Ramakrishna Mandir, let us go here"? Nobody. Is it practical? Guest: Yes, of course. Of course, even in India I don't think Vivekananda is that popular. Dr. Sukla: Within one period, people who probably just had no good books to read, and they got some of his writings. I know my father brought some books and... Prabhupāda: So where is your home? Dr. Sukla: It's in Benares, Kāśī. So there were some books by Vivekananda, and he is emotionally against Vivekananda, so that's a little too much perhaps. So he brought those books so that I can read them, I was curious. And he said, "When you are through, give it to your cook." (laughter) That's the only functional use of those books. Prabhupāda: For burning it in the fire? Dr. Sukla: Yes, he said so that we can make our capatis, to have some use of those things. And Kṛṣṇa, of course, there's hardly a village in India where, whether knowingly or unknowingly, people are not aware what is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: : In India they know, everyone. They observe Janmāṣṭamī. Dr. Sukla: Kṛṣṇa paraṁ bhajami. In India everybody knows Kṛṣṇa, even the illiterate person, but nobody knows Vivekananda. Only a few people, they started a Vedanta Society. Of course Veda is a very serious literature, it's not just anybody can get into that, it's a very, it's a disciplic... *Prabhupāda: Brahma*-sūtra-padaiś caiva hetumādbhir viniścitaiḥ [Bg. 13.5]. Very.... Nyāya-praṣṭhāna. But Vedānta-sūtra is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Therefore our Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, they did not write any comment on the Vedānta-sūtra. They accept Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the real bhāṣya. But when the Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇavas are challenged that "You have no Vedānta-sūtra-bhāṣya, therefore you cannot be accepted as transcendental party," so Baladeva Vidyābhūṣana immediately gave Govinda-bhāṣya on Vedānta. Our Gosvāmīs, they did not write because they knew Brahma-sūtra bhāṣya, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Indian devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was also a victim of this Vivekananda philosophy for a long time, and my father was very against. Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy? Indian devotee: There is no philosophy, but it was amusing... My father all the time was telling me to do some devotional service, I was... No, if I would not do it, I would not get my breakfast. So I had to do it. But now you have your books and... Indian woman: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I read Ramakrishna when I was fifteen years old, and I became so restless and anxious for guru, and I began to concentrate so much, and I become so God conscious. But I don't know what happened to me by reading Ramakrishna, and I gave up my (indistinct). I don't know what's wrong with me. Prabhupāda: Eh? (devotees laugh) What is the question? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The question is that she was so much inspired when she was very young, she read some words by Ramakrishna. Prabhupāda: What was the particular thing? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Then she started looking for guru. She became very aware of the need for guru. Indian woman: That's why I found you. (laughter) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Many of us who have similar experiences like that. Naturally, we weren't always so fortunate that we first came in contact with Prabhupāda's books or his disciples. But somehow or another we weren't satisfied by anything, because there was some gap, some void, some missing information that didn't satisfy us. Prabhupāda: Which portion appealed to you in Ramakrishna's life? Which portion? Indian woman: (indistinct) When he used to be married he wrote some songs, he used to practice to sing, he used to chant and he used to cry. Dr. Sukla: Of course, first we were talking about Vivekananda, not Ramakrishna. They are two different personalities and two different paths. Indian woman: Yes, but I thought Ramakrishna... Many times I get devotees who say to me, "Oh, he's a rascal." I say, "I don't know, I can't say rascal." I don't read him, but he inspired me so much. And I don't know what's wrong. Am I wrong or...? Prabhupāda: Now what is the philosophy of Ramakrishna? Indian woman: He does not say that Kṛṣṇa is God. (indistinct) and I was very young at that time. Prabhupāda: If you want to discuss, there is points of discussion. (laughs) Yes. He worshiped Kali, is it not? Everyone knows it. Do you know that? And by worshiping he became God. Do you agree to that? Dr. Sukla: No. He said, "I'm Rāma and Kṛṣṇa both." Prabhupāda: But he realized by worshiping Kali. (laughter) Devotee: ...he dressed up as Rādhārāṇī too. Prabhupāda: So do you agree to that? Then how you appreciate it? Indian woman: No, I don't appreciate it. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It is a common sense. He, later on, he became God, by worshiping Kali, is it not? Dr. Sukla: He was cursed by Kali. *Prabhupāda: No, he was a big worshiper of Kali. And he was meat*-eater also, Ma Kali's prasāda, that unless one eats that prasādam he cannot become a devotee. So this was his position, that he worshiped Kali, and later on by worshiping Kali... His picture is there, mother Kali's embracing. And he also preached yata mata tata pat: "Whatever path you take, accept, that is all right." Is it not? So do you think it is all right? He worshiped Kali and he said yata mata tata pat. You agree to this? Now, Ramakrishna says yata mata tata pat. And Kṛṣṇa says... He became Ramakrishna, identifying himself with Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa said mam ekam, and now he's becoming Kṛṣṇa, he says yata mata tata pat. Just see. When he's actual Kṛṣṇa, he says mām ekam, and when he became imitation Kṛṣṇa, he says yata mata tata pat. Kṛṣṇa has changed his views. (laughter) Just see, this foolishness is going on. Dr. Sukla: Well, it's documented that he was kind of deranged, of a deranged mind. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the proof. Dr. Sukla: Yes, because he was, when he was thirteen or seventeen he was walking, he was going from one village to another village through the paddy fields, and the clouds were very thick and thunder and lightning, and he writes that he saw Kali, and I have a friend in England, Carl Wilson, who has done some work on Ramakrishna, he believes that at that very moment... *Prabhupāda: These are miracles, that's all. It has no value. People are after miracles. So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante 'nya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. Those who are worshipers of other demigods, they are hṛta-jñānāḥ. Hṛta-jñānāḥ. Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura gives his comment, hṛta-jñānāḥ naṣṭa buddhayaḥ, one who has lost his intelligence. So by worshiping the demigod Kali he is to be considered as hṛta-jñānāḥ, one who has lost his intelligence*-and he becomes God. Is it possible? One who has lost his intelligence, he becomes God. With that lost intelligence. And this is the proof that on account of lost intelligence, he says yata mata tata pat. Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam. Sarva dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. And when he became Ramakrishna, same Kṛṣṇa is speaking, yata mata tata pat. So he has changed his view. We have to accept this? And how he gave up his wife, that's a long history, I don't wish to discuss. We know everything. So we cannot accept something which is beyond the instruction of śāstra. If you have no knowledge of the śāstra, then you'll never be successful in your spiritual life, what to speak of happiness and liberation. It is not possible. Indian woman: Is Mirabai Lord Caitanya's disciple? Prabhupāda: I'm talking of this Ramakrishna particularly. There is no śāstra siddha. Whimsical, sentiment, that's all. So far his yata mata tata pat is concerned, at last he proposed, "Now I shall worship according to the Muhammadan process. So I have to eat cow's flesh." So he was living in that temple... What is that temple in Calcutta? Daksinesvari. So the temple was owned by one big zamindar. So because it is temple, he cannot take... Of course, in that temple Kali was there. So they are taking fish and flesh. That was not objectionable. But he, when he wanted to take cow's flesh, so he wanted permission from proprietor, "Sir, I shall now practice according to Muhammadan system. So I take cow's flesh. So I want your permission." So he said, "Sir, I've given you so much licenses, but if you ask this, then I'll ask you to go out. I cannot give you this permission." Then he stopped Muhammadan way of worship. This is whimsical. Dr. Sukla: We have another mentally retarded person in India, Sai Baba. Prabhupāda: Yes, magic. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We have that newspaper from South Africa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyway, we are not after all this magic. We are laymen. We do not want this magic, neither we want to show magic. We simply, as canvasser of Kṛṣṇa, we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, "Sir, Kṛṣṇa says like this, you do like that," that's all. If you like, you can do; *otherwise let us do our own business. We don't show any magic, neither we speak anything which is not in the Bhagavad*-gītā. If there is little success, it is due to this secret, that's all. (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa says that He is Supreme, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. So we are preaching, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme," that's all. Dr. Sukla: Therefore you are doing so with tremendous success. Prabhupāda: Yes, people say that "Swamiji, you have done wonder, you have..." so on, so on, so on. But I do not know what is wonder. I know it is certain that I have not adulterated. That much I know. But I do not know how to play wonders. That I do not know. But I am certain that I have not adulterated what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. And I study everything by the crucial test of Kṛṣṇa's teaching. That's all. Kṛṣṇa says: *As soon as we see that somebody is not Kṛṣṇa conscious or Kṛṣṇa's devotee, I take them immediately he's a duṣkṛtina, he's a mūḍha, he's a narādhama. "Oh, he's educated!" māyāyapahṛta*-jñānā. Finish. Our study finish. We take it immediately that here is a māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. That's all. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Because he denies to accept Kṛṣṇa, he must be within this group. Duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. So people will be sorry or happy, we take them like that, that "Here is a duṣkṛtina," that's all. Dr. Sukla: Tulasi dāsa has also said that who is not God, Kṛṣṇa, conscious, you should treat them like your enemy. *Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that asat*-saṅga tyāga vaiṣṇava ācāra. The Vaiṣṇava's behavior is to give up bad company. Who is bad? Next question will be that "I have to give up the bad company. Who is bad?" Then He says, next line: asat stri saṅgī 'kṛṣṇabhakta' āra. Two words. Those who are too much attached to woman and those who are not devotees of Kṛṣṇa, they are bad. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says give up the company of these two bad men, that's all. That is Vaiṣṇava. So everything is there. If you simply follow with sincerity, then Kṛṣṇa is pleased. As Arjuna says, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73]." That's all. He becomes perfect. And Kṛṣṇa immediately accepts, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. He becomes immediately recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68]. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. Priya-kṛttamaḥ, superlative. Priya-kṛt, priya-kṛtara, priya-kṛttamaḥ. So let us follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā as it is, our life will be perfect. That is a fact. Don't divert your attention here and there. Devotee: Prabhupāda, you were a chemist before, but I think you are the greatest alchemist to have taken so many leaden souls and turned them into golden Vaiṣṇavas. Perhaps you can even transform them (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is giving us facilities to preach this cult. Everywhere we have got very, very palatial buildings to accommodate devotees. Now we have got here a very nice place, accommodate devotees. Everywhere we have got. In Bombay we are getting the best temple in India. We are spending crores of rupees, Kṛṣṇa is giving us money. So I started the business with forty rupees. That was also not American currency. They allowed me to bring forty rupees. So when I was getting off the ship I asked the captain, "I have brought these forty rupees, which will not be accepted here, so you take." At that time three books I had, the first, second and third volume. So I asked him that "You purchase. Give me some dollars." So he asked, "What is the price?" "Sixteen dollars." So he gave me twenty dollars, and I delivered them. With that twenty dollars I got out down on the land of America, and that forty rupees. So I did not know where to go, where to stay. So Kṛṣṇa is giving us all facilities, and these American boys are helping. I think those who are Indians, they should join this movement sincerely and preach more vigorously. People will be benefited*-this is real substance. Otherwise people are being misguided, so many things going on. Transcendental meditation, the, what is called? No, another. So many. Actually, speaking for the last at least two hundred years, many swamis, people came here, but not a single person was converted to become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is history. What do you think, Sukla? You have studied. So many swamis, yogis, scholars came, and they spoke on Bhagavad-gītā and other, but not a single person became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Sukla: I think they try to be impersonal. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. They are supposed to be great personalities, but not a single person was converted. Dr. Sukla: (indistinct) ...he was asked who is such a master. He pointed out could not answer who can be such a master. He posed himself as a spiritual master. Prabhupāda: So here is an opportunity to preach real India's traditional culture. So those who are Indians present here, they should cooperate. They should not mislead further. *Dr. Sukla: We have started teaching your Gītā at Georgetown University, where I teach. Before we had, we have two years course of Sanskrit, and we had some excerpts from Mahābhārata and some Pañca*-tantra and so on, but there was no Gītā. So I decided and we were using the entire Gītā for the second year. Your contributions can't be duplicated. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Dr. Sukla: And same thing with *Bhāgavatam*. We all know what a great book that is, and what I really appreciate about the whole thing is, number one, that there are no misprints in the book. So that's a great delight. Especially, for people who do not know Sanskrit, for them, there's no difference between the wheat and the germ that comes with it. The translations are very accurate. So it's real scholarship there. And people who were not aware of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they know that if the intellect is so powerful, the spirit must be powerful too. Our library, of course, has several copies, and our bookstore has almost all the... Prabhupāda: All over the world they have given standing order. (laughter) Dr. Sukla: Of course, it's very attractive to look at, another thing, the colors. So it's a beauty sight. But for some people... Prabhupāda: In India, the list you have got? We have got standing order from all institution, universities, colleges, standing orders, "Send as soon as possible." Devotee (2): The best thing is to distribute them everywhere. Prabhupāda: In Germany, in Russia, we have got order. The Russian professors, they have given order. Dr. Sukla: Your interview with the Russian professor was really sublime. Prabhupāda: You were in Russia? Dr. Sukla: No, I read in Bhavan's Journal, quoted from Bombay. Devotee (1): It was in the journal, your article was in one of the Indian journals. Prabhupāda: My talk with Professor Kotovsky? Dr. Sukla: Yes. Indian devotee: Actually, other Indians also commented they appreciate it very much. That was the first time I started association, then I came to realize, ah, my direction, I was fooling around with Vivekananda. Prabhupāda: Now other professors you have to assure that higher appreciation. Any scholar will appreciate. Apart from religious point of view, from scholarly point of view, they like it. Dr. Sukla: I think you should maybe some day in the future also put out a grammar, Sanskrit grammar, whether yourself you write or somebody. Prabhupāda: Grammar? Dr. Sukla: : Grammar of Sanskrit language published by the Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: We have got grammar, Jīva Gosvāmī, Harināmāmṛta*-vyakāraṇa. Dr. Sukla: Is it in English, available in translation? Prabhupāda: No, not here. Dr. Sukla: Well, I mean for the foreigners. *Prabhupāda: But here is grammar. Harināmāmṛta, all examples, words are harināmāmṛta. Yes, these are the list of, apart from European, America. "Cc" means Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, "SB" means Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, standing order. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In addition to other works also. This is within the last few months. They just started after our Māyāpura festival. Devotee (3): In Europe, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's a very nice Hungarian boy, he's a translator. He doesn't know English expertly, but I kept talking to him, he was working on translating. Prabhupāda: How he'll translate? Devotee (3): He's a Hungarian and he knows Russian also. Prabhupāda: If he does not know English, how he can translate? Devotee (3): He knows English quite fluently, but he feels not so expert in it. He's developing his expertise for English too. [break] Prabhupāda: Everyone is engaged in the business of sense gratification. Just like last night millions of men went to see the firework. So the firework as well as the people went to see there, the expenditure was very heavy, I think, total? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned that with all of the cars going and what not, it probably amounted to about ten million dollars. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that petrol. But what was the purpose? The purpose was little sense gratification, "I shall see something illuminating." What was other purpose? No purpose. Simply to satisfy the eyes, to see something illuminating. That is one sense, eyes. Then there are other senses. They also want satisfaction. There are hands, there are legs, there are tongue, eyes, ears, nose. So every one, every one of these senses, they are engaged for sense satisfaction. So this is the life. But that sense satisfaction is differently exhibited for different bodies. Just like this firework, it was interesting to the human being. Human being has got a particular type of body, so it is interested to see the firework. But the cats and dogs, they are not interested. They do not know what is fireworks. They, while we are interested to see the firework, a hog may be interested to eat stool. If he gets some stool somewhere, he'll be interested, than to see the firework. So because he has got a different body, he's interested differently. We are human beings, we are interested differently. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja rightly said, deha*-yogena dehinām. This sense gratification, varieties, according to the varieties of the body. Deha-yogena dehinām. But this is arranged, this different process of sense gratification is arranged daivāt, by the superior arrangement. Daivāt. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha-yogena dehinām, sarvatra labhyate daivāt. By the superior arrangement everywhere it is available. Either you become Lord Brahmā or you become a small ant, the process of sense gratification, arrangement is there. (aside) You can come forward. Rūpānuga: This is Professor Dr. Sukla. He has written a very favorable review on your books. *Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (laughs) Yes, I've seen you. Thank you very much. I'm just explaining that sense gratification, different types of bodies differently... So that is arranged by the superior arrangement. Sarvatra labhyate daivāt. So it is available everywhere according to the body arrangement. Prahlāda Mahārāja says... Where is that book, Prahlāda Mahārāja, Seventh Canto? Tat*-prayāso na kartavyo, don't waste your time for that purpose. Tat-prayāso na kartavyo. Why not? Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param. Simply wasting the valuable duration of life. Yata āyur-vyayaḥ. But practically we see that the whole world is spoiling the life simply for sense gratification, especially at the present moment. Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param. You can read. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Translation: "Endeavors merely for sense gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual profit. If one's endeavors are directed towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can surely attain the spiritual platform of self*-realization. There is no such benefit from engaging oneself in economic development." *Prabhupāda: This is our philosophy, and the whole world is engaged in economic development. So which is better? (laughs) Here it is said tat*-prayāso na kartavyo. We see, especially in the Western country, they are very busy for economic development, and unless one is engaged... I think that Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they questioned that in India, people being fatalist... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They questioned, many people think this is a hindrance to progress. *Prabhupāda: So what is progress? In India still, in so fallen condition, we have got practical experience. If there is some arrangement... Sometimes we arrange Hare Kṛṣṇa festival. Each day not less than twenty thousand, thirty thousand, forty thousand people come. Although these, mostly these foreigners, they are chanting, and we are speaking in English, still, to hear the kīrtana, they come from remote villages. In Calcutta I have seen. That is natural tendency of Indians. Bhārata*-bhūmi, anyone who has taken birth in India, naturally Kṛṣṇa conscious. By artificial means, they are being suppressed. Just like this Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have questioned that... What they have said? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They said that there are many thinkers in India who consider that the Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore it doesn't encourage people to make material progress. *Prabhupāda: That economic development. Our ācāryas, practically in Indian civilization, there are so many books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big factories for economic development. You'll find Vyāsadeva has written so many books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned. Dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90], he dealt with these four subject matter, but not bhakti. Therefore Nārada Muni chastised him, that "You have wasted your time, simply writing on the subject matter of dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa, catur varga." Then, under his instruction, he wrote Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam simply on the glories of the Supreme Lord, without any attempt to write anything about dharma artha kāma mokṣa. In the beginning he introduces, gives introduction to his book, dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavo 'tra śrīmad-bhāgavate [SB 1.1.2], in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa, they are all kaitavas, cheating. These things are thrown away. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. So this kaitava, Śrīdhara Swami gives his commentary, atra mokṣa-vāñchan paryantaṁ nirastam. The desire for liberation is also rejected. Simply devotional service to the Lord. That is only business. So our, this propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is on the basis... It is called bhāgavata-dharma. Prahlāda Mahārāja begins his teaching that this bhāgavata-dharma should be imparted from the very beginning of life. And people are missing this opportunity. They are being allured by other business. The main business they are forgetting, neglecting, and they are being drawn, their attention is drawn, so many sporting, so many economic development, then other anarthas, drinking, gambling, slaughterhouse, so on, so on. So this is against human civilization. Therefore if you will give us some chance... Just like you have given. What is that? Mr. Loomis(?): Could I ask a question? I look at this room and my senses are gratified by this room, by that painting, by beautiful flowers, by the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is pleasing to my ear, and I have to feel that my senses are able to help my spirit, or else there will not be this beauty in this room. But I don't understand very well when sense gratification is helpful and when it is not. *Prabhupāda: Sense gratification is never helpful. That is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, that kāmasya nendriya-prītir [SB 1.2.10]. Sense gratification is required as far as..., as little as possible. Otherwise, not for sense gratification. Just like sleeping. Sleeping is required because this material body requires some rest. But not that we shall sleep twenty-four hours or twenty hours and enjoy, as in this country sometimes they enjoy sleeping. But sleeping is wasting time. So long we shall sleep we cannot do anything good work. Therefore it should be minimized. You cannot avoid sleeping altogether. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is called tapasya, or advancement of spiritual life. Eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. They're required. So long we have got this body, we require to eat something, we require to sleep sometimes, we require a little sense gratification, and we require defense. But it should be minimized, not increased. That is tapasya. In the human life this is possible, this is possible. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau **. One can conquer over these things, by practice. The more we minimize this āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna, this means we are advanced in spiritual taste.(?) It is practiced. My, my personal life, I don't sleep at night. And nowadays, at most, one hour. Yes. But I take rest in the daytime, at least two to three hours. So it is not that I am sleeping one hour. I sleep three to four hours total. But if practiced, it can be reduced, practiced. We see in the life of Gosvāmīs. About them, it is said: nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau **. They conquered over sleeping, eating. If we conquer over eating, then we can conquer over sleeping and other things also. If we can control over this tongue, then we can control over the other senses very easily. That is a fact. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung, tar madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati, tā 'ke jetā koṭhina saṁsāre. Of all our senses the tongue is very, very prominent. So the first thing in spiritual advancement, the first thing is to control the tongue. In the śāstra also it is said sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [BRS. 1.2.234]. Our present senses are unable to understand sri kṛṣṇa nāmādi, the holy name of the Lord. Ādi, beginning from His name, nāma, then guṇa, qualities, then pastimes, then form. So people cannot understand the form of the Lord because they are not practiced to devotional service. They are more or less impersonalists. They cannot imagine that God has His form like us, because they are not sevonmukha. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi. Not to speak of the form, they cannot understand what is the holy name of the Lord, why they are chanting, what is the benefit. They cannot understand. Ataḥ śrī kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [BRS. 1.2.234]. The present senses cannot appreciate. It has to be purified. That purification begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. Then God reveals. When we chant the holy name of the Lord, purified, that is bhakti. Bhakti means to become purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Nirmalam means completely cleansed of all dirty things. That is bhakti. Bhakti means to engage the senses, purified senses, in the service of the Lord. At the present moment, in conditioned stage, our senses are not purified. Therefore we are very, very anxious to engage the senses for sense gratification. And when they will be purified, then these senses will be engaged for the service of Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣikeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam. God's another name is Hṛṣīkeśa, master of the senses. Actually, we have got these senses. Suppose this hand is also one of the senses, to touch. We are claiming it is my hand, but it is not my hand. It is Kṛṣṇa's hand. Kṛṣṇa has given us to use it. Just like this room is not my room. They have given me for my use. Similarly, this body, actually, it is made by Kṛṣṇa. *It is a machine manufactured by the material nature under the order of Kṛṣṇa. So actually it is not my body, it is Kṛṣṇa's body. Kṛṣṇa has given us. He has given you a particular type of body, He has given me a particular type of body, so many. Yantra, machine. Just like on a machine, motorcar, we sit down and travel here and there. So we wanted to travel in a certain way so we require some machine, and Kṛṣṇa has given us this machine manufactured by material nature. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. So Kṛṣṇa is within the core of heart of everyone. He knows what I want. He's giving us facilities. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and He's still giving direction, "All right, you want to get this facility, sit down on it and travel as you like." So we are getting different machines. Sometimes the human body machine, sometimes dog machine, sometimes cat machine, sometimes demigod machine. We are desiring all these things. American machine, Indian machine. When you are in Indian machine you are thinking "I am Indian. My business is to satisfy Indian interests." You Americans are thinking "This is American machine; it should be used for America's benefit." These are upādhi. Upādhi means designation. Neither I am Indian nor American nor cat nor dog. But as soon as I get a particular type of body, I think that I am cat, I am dog, I am Indian, I am America, I am black, I am white, this. This is our position. And people are struggling on this understanding, "I am this body." So long we think like that, "I am this body," we are no better than cats and dogs. He is also thinking "I am this body." Is it not? What do you think, Mr. Sukla? If I think I am this body, the dog is also thinking "I am this body," then where is the difference between the dog and me? What do you think, Mr... How shall I address you? Devotees: Loomis. Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Devotees: L*-o-o-m... Prabhupāda: So, what is the difference if a dog is thinking that "I am dog," on account of his body, and if I am thinking I'm an Indian on account of this body. Then where is the difference between this dog and me? He is working under the impression that he's dog, and I am working under the impression I am Indian or American. Then where is difference? Yesterday you observed this great festival under this impression that "I am American. I must observe this independence." Is it not? What was the meaning of this festival? It was interesting to the Americans. Other nations, they are not interested. They are not observing this independence festival. But the Americans are observing. Why? Under this impression that "I am American." This yesterday... Mr. Loomis: Under the impression that what? Prabhupāda: Everyone is thinking that "I am American." So if a human being is thinking "I am American," "Indian," or something like that, and if a dog is thinking "I am dog," then where is the difference between the mentalities? Dr. Sukla: Of course, both, perhaps, are victim of some kind of illusion. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is illusion. That we are trying to describe. But this is going on. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," the human being is also thinking that "I am American," "I am Indian," or... Dr. Sukla: Then, perhaps, there is no difference. *Prabhupāda: No difference. That is described in the śāstra. Yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. This body is made of... Everyone knows what is the composition: the bones, the flesh, the blood, the urine, the stool and so on, so on. The body, what is the composition? This is the composition. So if I identify with these bones, flesh, blood, muscle, veins, and stool, urine, so I am a living entity, I am all these bones and flesh and blood? Mr. Loomis: Is it better to have a human body as a machine to use than a cat's body? *Prabhupāda: Certainly, in the sense that you can utilize for higher purposes. Just like you have got this human form of body. Therefore you are sitting here to hear me. The dog has no such facility. The dog has got the same legs, hands or mouth and tongue, and so on, so on, in a different way. But it has no capacity to hear about spiritual advancement of life. Therefore the human body should be engaged not simply for sense gratification. Kāmasya nendriya*-prītir [SB 1.2.10]. Find out this verse. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. This is the business, tattva-jijñāsā. Tattva-jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is the only business. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kāmasya nendriya*-prītir labho jīveta yāvatā [SB 1.2.10]. *Prabhupāda: Labho jīveta yāvatā. You can satisfy senses as far as it is required to live. That's all. Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā. The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is the only business. Mr. Loomis: For this machine? *Prabhupāda: All other business subordinate. That is only, because you have got this body, material body, it requires little rest, little sense gratification, little eating, little sleeping. We don't say stop it completely. That is not possible. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya, as far as it is required. As little as possible. That is spiritual advancement. If we make our progressive life engaged in understanding Kṛṣṇa instead of devoting in these unnecessary things, that is real life. That is real human life. The Vedic civilization is that. We find Vyāsadeva writing so exalted books, but life was very simple. People are, now in the modern civilization, people are accustomed only to the comforts of the body. Not for spiritual advance. That is the defect of modern civilization. [break] Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, no matter what material body you have, by material nature given you, one of the most predominating features of material life is pain. I want to address myself to this question, because in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we frequently face this problem. We have the pain of, for example, if you do tapasya, that's a pain to deprive your body of sense gratification. If you don't have sleep, you have to force yourself. If you have sickness, mental disturbances, so many things, then there's the other kind of pain. *Prabhupāda: That is being explained, that we don't want to stop sleeping, but minimize it. That is being already explained. We don't say complete negation. No. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya. Simply sleep as little as possible. Not that to take, just like in the Western countries, they take sleeping as enjoyment. Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They call it beauty rest. In Hawaii we went by a Beautyrest Mattress store. They call it beauty rest. Prabhupāda: Not for beauty rest. (laughter) Devotee (4): There's a kind of pain also, like when your false ego, when somebody tells you to do something or yells at you or gives you instruction. We all have this propensity to try and lord it over. When that's being denied, we feel a sense of pain, we feel like something, you know, dejected in our service. The tendency is to want to be angry... Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to be trained up under proper spiritual master. You cannot work whimsically. Then it will not help. Devotee (4): Should we always endeavor in spite of pain to push ourselves in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *Prabhupāda: There is no pain. It is painful in the beginning, but... Everything. If you take some medicine, it is bitter, it is painful, but if it helps to cure disease, we must take it. "Because the medicine is bitter, I'll not take it." That is not sense. If you want to be cured from the disease, even the medicine is bitter, you must take. That is tapasya. Tapasya means things we are going to accept may be not very pleasing, but still we have to do it. That is tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. We take bitter medicine just to cure our existence. Similarly, at the present moment, our existence is impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old age and disease on account of impure existence. Otherwise, we are spirit soul, we are eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. So we are not in eternal existence, we are temporary existence. We have got this body, it will be finished. Then we have to accept another body, tatha dehāntara praptir. Then again you live in that body for some time, and again the body is finished. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. So this is going on. This is impure stage of our existence. So we have to purify it. Therefore to purify it tapasya required. Tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. The tapasya required. That tapasya has to be given lesson, trained up. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1]. That is brahmacārī system, to understand the value of life. These things are lacking in the present civilization, but it is essential. Without this, there is no meaning of human life. Then it is cats' and dogs' life. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. *So just we are trying to save men from this go*-kharaḥ civilization. Therefore it is not very appealing to the general mass of people. But still we have seen yesterday that as soon as we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone is attracted, everyone. You have seen yesterday? The drunkard, he was also attracted, and the child was attracted, the gray(?) gentleman, he was also attracted, within the park. The child was dancing and the drunkard was dancing. Therefore this is the only means to elevate the modern men to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Harer nāma harer nāma [Ādi 17.21]. Dr. Sukla: Have the writings of Vidyāpati come to attention, and if they have... Prabhupāda: That is very higher, not for ordinary persons. Vidyāpati's writing is meant for realized souls, not ordinary. Ordinary, they will take as love affairs between girls and boys. Therefore it is not for them. Those who are already advanced, liberated, then these love affairs of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, they will be discussed. Dr. Sukla: Is there any plan of bringing those things out, publishing them, his poems and translations? Prabhupāda: It is not for ordinary. Cāṇḍīdāsa, Vidyāpati. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to discuss Jayadeva's books, Vidyāpati's books, very confidentially amongst a few devotees. Not publicly. Dr. Sukla: So you think they might be misused. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they are being misused. They take Kṛṣṇa as debauch. They do not understand. Therefore the Kṛṣṇa's līlā with the gopīs, they are described in the Tenth Canto. That is also middle of Tenth Canto, and nine cantos required to understand Kṛṣṇa, beginning with janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. So that is the Absolute Truth. These things should be discussed in the beginning. Then when one is fully convinced that Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with this material world, as Śaṅkarācārya said, nārāyaṇaḥ para avyaktāt, avyaktāt anna sambhava. This material world is a production... [break] It has to be purified. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When it is nirmalam, then it is first-class. The first process is nirmalam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam [SB 7.5.23]. This process is first-class. Not all of a sudden jump over. This literature, that is (indistinct), that should be kept in reserve for persons who are already liberated. Otherwise it will be misunderstood. Indian man: Going back to this sense question, where do you think the scheme of art fits into Kṛṣṇa conscious life? Prabhupāda: Art? *Indian man: Yes, like painting, or music, or literature, poetry, like that. Because the problem is that they, if one devotes oneself to these things, they are full*-time things, they take all your energy and time. And so... *Prabhupāda: Devotion means to engage your energy and time for Kṛṣṇa. Anyway you do that, that is utilized. Sarvopādhi*-vinir... tat-paratvena. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. So if you can serve Kṛṣṇa by your hand, by painting about Kṛṣṇa, that is service. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, if you hear the chanting, that is also service. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu, about Lord Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning. Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of pleasure, ānandamayo 'byāsāt. So these things are producing ānanda. If it is in connection with Kṛṣṇa, then it is service. (aside:) So, Pālikā, you can take these fruits, cut into pieces and distribute it. Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what if, ah, for instance, I'm too fallen to closely follow the regulative principles and I find myself in that way... Prabhupāda: Just explain. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Too fallen to follow the regulative principles is like saying a diseased man is too diseased to take medicine. So it's actually in our own self interest. We have to become enlightened, to understand what our real interest is. Yajña vai viṣṇu. Now we are thinking that our real interest is to gratify the senses. This is perishable. When we come to the understanding of ātmā, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, then we understand that our real self interest is to follow these regulative principles. As Prabhupāda said, in the beginning it may be painful, undoubtedly, because we are, for so many lifetimes addicted to sense gratification, but gradually more and more ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], when the heart becomes cleansed from the dirty misidentification with this gross and subtle material body, gradually more and more it becomes favorable (indistinct). Kṛṣṇa says, "Be happy by this sacrifice." Therefore the sacrifice must be joy-producing, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Simply that because we're presently in diseased condition, it may appear to be displeasing. Prabhupāda gives the example of someone who has jaundice. In the jaundice state, when you take sugar it appears very bitter. The perception is very bitter. But everyone knows that sugar is sweet. So in the same way, the regulative principles are naturally painful for someone who is irregular. For.... Engaged in bodily identification of life. But gradually it becomes more and more pleasing. Prabhupāda: Practical. Devotee: When we have Kṛṣṇa conscious (indistinct) struggling for(indistinct). It has to be a struggle. Prabhupāda: What is struggle? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance and take prasādam. (devotee cheers) Prabhupāda: Is that struggle? You don't want to take it. Say that. Where is struggle? To take prasādam, nice prasādam, is struggle? (laughs) Devotee: No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You simply take prasādam, you haven't got to struggle. (laughter) But don't take anything else. Then it will be (indistinct). Devotee: He's not struggling, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: At all. Devotee: He's not struggling taking prasādam. *Prabhupāda: Su*-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam. Rāja-vidyā rāja-guhyaṁ pavitram paramam idam. Su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam. Find out this verse. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the only way back to Godhead is to to attain the causeless mercy of the spiritual master. So... Prabhupāda: And he'll sleep. Just as your spiritual master will do for (indistinct) everything (indistinct). It is not magic. Kṛṣṇa, when He advised Arjuna, He never said that "Arjuna, I'm your friend, God, I shall do everything (indistinct). You don't fight." Did He say? "You have to fight!" That's Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Not that by spiritual master's mercy (indistinct). You have to struggle. You have to follow the rules and regulations. Yes, what does He say? Devotee (3): "This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed." Devotee (3): So by struggling to overcome our senses, we can please you and obtain your mercy? Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct) *Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda mentions in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, in the Third Canto, that a yogi is recommended to take foodstuffs, half as much as he desires, one quarter water, one quarter air, one quarter foodstuff. Is that fully recommended for a person in the the Kṛṣṇa consciousness society? If so, how can you be (indistinct)? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The basic principle is that-Prabhupāda mentioned earlier in this afternoon's talk*-that if you can control the tongue, especially eating habits, then you'll be able to conquer other things such as sleep. Not only sleep, but also overeating produces other problems like sex desire. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha-vegaṁ jihvā-vegam udaropastha-vegam. So jihva, the tongue and the belly, udara, upastha, genital, one straight line, like this. So there's a correlation. If one overindulges in eating, then it becomes very difficult also to conquer sex desire, which is the main attraction, or bondage within this material world, not only for the human being but for every living entity. So the principle is that if you don't overeat it will become easier for you to conquer all the senses, as Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, tongue is the most formidable of all the senses. Tāra madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudur... always lusting after more and more. Never satisfied. So we have to become sufficiently enlightened to regulate eating habits. This is done by taking prasādam at regular times, and gradually, intelligently you can see what you actually require. Not that everyone will require the same amount. Just like there's a plate of food so one person is big or one person is small. An elephant and an ant, both of them have different quotas. So everyone has a particular quota of prasādam they should take. Gradually by practice apart from this (indistinct) is required. It's common sense. Guest: There are two, two functions in the tongue, one is (indistinct) and one is (indistinct)? So which one (indistinct). Preaching is a form of tapasya? (indistinct) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's described in the Bhagavad*-gītā, the different austerities. The austerity of the tongue, the austerity of the mind, the austerity of the body. It is described in the Seventeenth Chapter and the, and the austerity of the tongue, of speech, It's an austerity, tapa. Austerity of speech consists of speaking truthfully, and beneficially, and then avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the *Vedas* regularly. So preaching is also control of the tongue. So our philosophy is that control doesn't mean that you stop. It's not possible. Can you stop eating? Can you stop sleeping? Can you stop different activities of going here and going there? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) everyone. (indistinct) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But that everything should be done in relationship to Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will become purified. Hṛṣīkeśa hṛṣīkeṇa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate. When the senses are engaged for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then they're no longer... The senses are compared to the sharp teeth of (indistinct). (indistinct) sharp teeth are naturally very dangerous. But when engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, the shark teeth, they're broken. So they can't feel any trouble. Although we are using the senses which is the cause of bondage, these senses employed in Kṛṣṇa's service, they no longer become a source of bondage, but of liberation. Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) Serpent is dangerous, so long he has got the fangs. (indistinct) If the fang is taken away that means he's no more dangerous. So (indistinct). But if I am sure that his fangs are taken away (indistinct). Senses are dangerous, it is compared with the serpent. (Sanskrit) But if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that (Sanskrit) the fangs are no more existing therefore it is no more dangerous. Devotee: Is it true or not true that Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta said that failure is the pillar of success and (indistinct)? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know exactly if Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda has used this saying.... Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Failure is the pillar of success. But generally speaking, to paraphrase it, it means that we should learn from our mistakes. Prabhupāda: Hm. That is success. If we learn our failure and try to rectify it, that is (indistinct). *Devotee (3): I asked Prabhupāda the other day, because Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, "Forget the past, it sleeps and never the future dream at all. Live with times that are of thee, and progress thee shall call." So I asked Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it possible to forget the past? Śrīla Prabhupāda said, "No, that would not be possible, but we can think like this, that 'I have done so many foolish things,' and rectify it. Not that we should remain fools. Then what would be the value of our experience? Just like a child, he can put his finger in the fan and it hurts. So then he learns not to do it again. But if he's so dull*-headed that again and again he puts his finger in the fan... Basically our experience from the material world should be duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. That the material world is simply a place of misery. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhī-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. That we should perceive the miseries of birth and death, disease and old age. That should be our experience in the material world. From this we should aspire for real happiness. (indistinct) Devotee: So this... It explains also in the *Nectar of Instruction* that the man who may see others stealing and see others also put in jail and punished for stealing, he may have been caught himself and punished for stealing but yet he goes out and steals again. That this (indistinct) again and again. Is this a symptom of the cause (indistinct)? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's called durācara, misbehavior. So atonement, according to Śukadeva Gosvāmī, is not simply repenting and saying, "Oh, I'm sorry." But becoming intelligent. Atonement means coming to the platform of real intelligence. That intelligence, "Why I am becoming implicated in this material world, in so many ways which will simply produce more and more suffering for myself?" Just like if he steals, he knows he goes to prison, so he knows it beforehand, he's not ignorant of the fact. In this instance, one.... He knows that if he steals, he goes to prison. So in the same way we should become intelligent and should understand the laws of nature, the laws of God. That's athāto brahma jijñāsā. Inquiry what is the real nature, what is the real nature of Brahman, how Brahman has manifested this material world and how it's going on. Then become intelligent, act for your own self*-interest, become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Devotee: It is explained that the intelligence is the next door neighbor of the soul, can you explain exactly what that means, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: So what is his question? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His question is that the intelligence, sometimes you've gone like this, I've seen, you say that the soul and the intelligence are like that, that the intelligence is very close to the soul. Guest: (indistinct) the relationship between the intelligence, working in the soul. Prabhupāda: Soul is above intelligence. This is the relationship. Intelligence is above the mind, and soul is above the intelligence. Senses, then mind, then intelligence, then the soul. Devotee: (indistinct) matter. Prabhupāda: Yeah, subtle (?) matter (indistinct). Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur [Bg. 3.42]. Prabhupāda: Oh, indriyāṇi parāny āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ [Bg. 3.42]. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Manasas tu parā buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ. *Prabhupāda: So when you engage yourself in soul's activities, then gradually your intelligence, mind, senses, become spiritualized, or original. Then material activities stop. At the present moment without (indistinct) spiritually (indistinct) we are acting on the platform of gross senses. But if we begin our activities from the opposite side, from soul side, then everything becomes spiritualized. But the question of giving up the senses, no, it has to be purified. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Senses (indistinct) it should be purified. At the present moment, on account of material conception of life everything is polluted with material ideas. So when it will be spiritualised, that is perfect. But instead of working uselessly, if we use our legs for going to the temple then it is spiritualized work. And instead of going to the cinema, if we go and see Deity then it is spiritual eyes. Instead of going to the restaurant, hotel, if we take prasādam, so then you spiritualize your tongue. Instead of talking nonsense, if you talk about Kṛṣṇa, then it is properly utilizing the tongue. In this way we have to practice. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Somebody is trying to stop sense activity. That is not possible. The sense activity should be cleansed. That is wanted. Otherwise how would he say hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. If you completely reject your senses then how we can serve Kṛṣṇa? It has to be purified. That is devotional service. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarnane [SB 9.4.18]. Manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ, fix up your mind in Kṛṣṇa, then your talking will be purified, your walking will be purified, your handling will be purified, your hearing will be purified, everything will be purified. You cannot be desireless. But if we simply desire Kṛṣṇa, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Anyābhilāśitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam [BRS 1.1.11]. Our activities are going on on the platform of karma and jñāna. Or little more on yoga. Karma, jñāna and yoga. So one has to give up all these, karma, jñāna. The karmīs are working for sense gratification. The jñānīs are working for being liberated. The yogis are working for some magical power. Aṣṭa-siddhi. So one has to become free from all these desires. Anyābhilāsa-śūnyam, anyābhilāsa-śūnyam, jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Simply you should be prepared to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. If you are trying in different way, for sense gratification, karmīs are grossly, they want something (indistinct) they want nice car, wife, house, nice wife, nice (indistinct), So many things. That is karmī life. Jñānī, as they are baffled, they say, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, this endeavor for all mithyā. They take sannyasa, but after few days, again they take to the karmī's life. So that is also not good. Restless, so long you remain karmī, jñāni, yogi, restless. But when you become devotee you have no such desires, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [BRS 1.1.11]. And then you become happy. Simply (indistinct) to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna, he after hearing Bhagavad-gītā, what was his position? His position was, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Yes. Yes, I am now ready to do whatever You say." That is (indistinct). He did not become a karmī, jñāni, yogi. Simply (indistinct) to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat-prasādān madhusūdana. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Prabhupāda: This is wanted. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, "You fight." He hesitated. "How can I fight? To kill my grandfather, my teacher? To kill my brother? My nephew? And so on, so on, so on. What You are advising, Kṛṣṇa, I cannot do." Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā was talked, and after learning he says, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava." (indistinct) This is perfection. He remained the same soldier. In the beginning, he was declining to fight, but at the end, he has agreed, "Yes." In the beginning it was "No." And when he was perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is "Yes." The materialist person, they are accustomed to say, "No." "No, God." When you become "Yes, God," then you are perfect. Jñānīs are "No, God." The karmīs are "No, God," yogis are "No, God," everyone, "No, God." Only the bhaktas, "Yes, God!" Yes. So that is perfect. This morning one Indian gentleman was talking about this impersonal, what was his question? Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, some gentleman was asking the question in the morning? Devotee: (indistinct) interpretation, that one person is interpreting in this way and another in that way, so they're saying they feel like if... Prabhupāda: So why they should interpret different way? Guest: What was the question? Prabhupāda: Just... Explain to him. Devotee: There was an Indian man there and he was saying that, you were presenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the philosophy very nicely, but there are others who are presenting it in an impersonal way. And they are able through the scripture to support what they say. Prabhupāda (indistinct) now in our (indistinct) you can't actually substantiate that God is impersonal, because Kṛṣṇa is a person speaking to Arjuna, so where is the question of impersonal? (indistinct) So Prabhupāda said it's because they're speculating and cheating, that they're interpreting it in some devious manner, rather than taking what Kṛṣṇa said, literally, as (indistinct). Guest: Well, I have given some thought to that. I found that whenever you take an impersonal view, it becomes a pure intellectual exercise, devoid of any feeling. And if you bring feeling into that, it becomes personal. Like, I don't believe that anything can survive without feeling. So... *Prabhupāda: It is in the Bhagavad*-gītā, it is clearly said, bhagavān uvāca. It is never said Brahman uvāca. (laughter) People have no eyes to see. The absolute truth is realized brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. But in the Bhagavad-gītā it is never said Paramātmā uvāca. (laughter) Or Brahman uvāca. Bhagavān uvāca! Vyāsadeva, He does not say kṛṣṇa uvāca, because Kṛṣṇa will be taken, misunderstood. Therefore (Vyāsadeva) directly says, śrī bhagavān uvāca. So where is impersonal? There is no question of impersonal. He clearly says bhagavān. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8]. Bhagavān says, "I am everything." So where is imperson? How they can bring in impersonal at all? It is simply dragging (?) the matter. This impersonal has killed India's Vedic culture. Guest: Well, the example is that Śaṅkarācārya, who was of course... Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya, he advised bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam, "Hey you rascal, whatever I have said, you just..." Guest: On the one hand he reached the height of that intellectual exercise, at the same time he realized that bhaja govindam. Prabhupāda: No. He is correct in the study. Because his mission was to stop atheism. At that time India was full of Buddhistic philosophy. Atheism. So his preaching was to stop Buddhism. Therefore, the Buddhists are śūnyavādis. So he said, "No, it is not śūnya. That is Brahman. This material world is false, (indistinct)." Lord Buddha said everything is false. He said, "No, the material world is false, Brahman is false, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. But he did not give any further information of Brahman. But at last he said brahma me govindaṁ brahmate bhaja govindam. Guest: There's a very nice story about this illusion. That once he was walking and someone who knew that Śaṅkarācārya preached this illusion business, was riding on an elephant, so he asked his driver, "Chase Śaṅkarācārya." And of course he did and Śaṅkarācārya started running. So this man said, "Why are you running, since this is illusion?" And he said, "So is my running." (laughter) He said, "So is my running, that's also an illusion." Prabhupāda: That's nice. *Rūpānuga: But sometimes the impersonalists, they say, Prabhupāda, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is just the beginning platform, that after Kṛṣṇa consciousness then one can come to impersonal realization. They say that in the scriptures only Bhagavad*-gītā and a few scriptures teach about Kṛṣṇa but the rest of the Vedas don't even talk about Kṛṣṇa's name. So, therefore, this impersonalism is higher realization, but one comes to it, after bhakti. Prabhupāda: No. There are *Vedas*, there are so many names described. Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa by studying *Vedas*, then he has not studied *Vedas*. It is very confidential. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]? If one has studied Veda, but has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then his labor is useless. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. If one is actually jñānavān, then he (indistinct). Śaṅkarācārya said bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam. That is real knowledge. But if one says that in the *Vedas*, you don't find Kṛṣṇa's name, then he has not studied Veda. Because Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. The actual purpose of studying *Vedas* means to understand Kṛṣṇa. If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. They have simply labored for nothing. Guest: Also this, another aspect was answered, the Vedic literature, all that we have today, is not a complete literature. We assume that perhaps some part of the literature has never been copied and was probably lost. So if His name doesn't occur in certain portion of *Vedas*, it doesn't mean that the name didn't occur in the *Vedas*. This is something that people have... Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa's name is very confidential. In the Atharva Veda, there is name, there is.... Jīva Gosvāmī has quoted from Atharva Veda. There is Kṛṣṇa's name. And this, the best scholar of *Vedas*, (indistinct) he says, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇa, Śaṅkarācārya. Then other ācāryas they have supported Kṛṣṇa's teachings, just like Rāmānujācārya, and (indistinct) he has quoted Vedic quotation, every śloka. So one has to learn the real *Vedas*, then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned," (Sanskrit). Everywhere is Kṛṣṇa's name. But one must be actually scholar in *Vedas*, then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the beginning, in the middle, and at the end." Devotee (2): In the glorifications of Ṛg Veda, (indistinct) example of glorifications of Kṛṣṇa there? Prabhupāda: Everything is glorification of Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (3): Whenever Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the *Vedas*, He's mentioned as the Supreme. Some people, some scholars say, "Well, so many other demigods are mentioned far more often than Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa's mentioned to be the supermost. From the Atharva Veda, (Sanskrit). "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme." Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. Either you accept this Kṛṣṇa's statement, or you reject Kṛṣṇa. But He says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. What do you want more? Guest: Well, Prabhupādajī, if anyone has gone to *Gītā* and if he is still bothered by the historical evidence, I don't think he has read *Gītā*. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: So we should never really be bothered by this question of historical... *Prabhupāda: Therefore we have concentrated on Gītā. This movement*-when I registered this association, so when I wrote "Kṛṣṇa consciousness," some friend said, "Why don't you write 'God consciousness'?" But no, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are particularly preaching Kṛṣṇa's teaching. Kṛṣṇa is God, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. But if you think that there is another God then you may do your business. We are concerned with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We cannot allow any interpretation of Kṛṣṇa. That is our (indistinct). (aside:) Yes? Guest (2): There is a Swami, Gangesvaranandaji, (indistinct) *Vedas* (indistinct) books that Kṛṣṇa's name in the *Vedas* is mentioned. Prabhupāda: Ah? Devotee: Kṛṣṇa's name in the *Vedas* is already there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: He has clearly (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]? Guest (3): The Māyāvādīs say that Vedānta is impersonal, and (indistinct) Vedānta... *Prabhupāda: You do not know what is Vedānta. (indistinct) In the beginning of Vedānta, athāto brahma jijñāsā. "Now try to inquire about this Supreme, (indistinct) Brahman." The next verse is janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], Brahman is there, from whom everything emanates. So now, what is that thing from which everything emanates? What is the nature of that thing? That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Bhāgavatam is the real explanation of Veda. Brahma-sūtra, (indistinct) mahasyam brahma-sūtrānāṁ vedasya parividyatam (?), this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, vedasya parividyatam, (indistinct) avyayam, brahma-sūtrasya (?) uvaca, by Vyāsadeva himself. Vyāsadeva is the writer of Vedānta-sūtra, so he's writing himself under the instruction of Nārada. So to understand Vedānta, you have to study Bhāgavatam. He's explained janmādy asya [SB 1.1.1]. Brahman is the original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ. So what is the nature? Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca... (end) *Evening Darçana-*-July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C. *Prabhupāda: ...cure the diseased condition of our existence, and then it will be cured. For that purpose, we have to execute austerity, penance, tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena ca [SB 6.1.13]. These practices are there. But there is one practice that is called bhakti. Kevalayā bhaktyā vāsudeva*-parayanaḥ. One.... Vāsudeva-parayanaḥ, vāsudeva sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. When one understands that Vāsudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is everything, then he becomes the greatest mahātmā. That platform is achieved after many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudeva sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. So Vāsudeva is canvassing, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "You just surrender to Me, I shall give you all protection." And one has to come to this position, vāsudeva sarvam iti. So one who is intelligent, he will take it immediately that bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19], "After many, many births, if I have come to this position, that 'Vasudeva is everything,' then why not accept Him immediately?" That is intelligent. Why shall I wait for many, many births? I have got now sense, I have got this human body. Let me do it immediately. That is sense. And if you want to wait for many, many births to come to this conclusion.... We can do that. That is our misfortune. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that you take immediately, without waiting for many, many births. Don't wait. Now we have got human form of body, and here is opportunity, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], to take shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why not do it now? Indian lady: And it is sure to go through in this life if you try this? *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is sure. He says ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ. It is sure. It is not speculation. It is fact. As soon as you surrender, you immediately become freed from all sinful reaction of life. And we suffer on account of sinful reaction of life. So intelligence is that "Here is the opportunity, mām eva ye pradadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te, to get out of the clutches of the influence of material energy. Why not take it now?" That is wanted. Vāsudeva sarvam iti sa mahātmāh su-durlabhaḥ. Guest (1) (Indian man): When you talk of Kṛṣṇa, sometimes when we talk with our friends here, to ask you this thing, when you talk of Kṛṣṇa, do we mean that we are talking of Kṛṣṇa of *Mahābhārata*, or we are talking of the Kṛṣṇa the God, or the supreme head? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa Mahābhārata and Kṛṣṇa God is the same person. Why do you differentiate? My question will be how do you differentiate the Kṛṣṇa Mahābhārata and Kṛṣṇa God different? Because Kṛṣṇa is speaking Bhagavad*-gītā. That is a chapter in the Mahābhārata. So how do you differentiate? What is the cause that you are differentiating? Guest (1): Well, I think that the... Prabhupāda: No, you think you have already explained. But where is the basis of your thinking like that? Because everyone knows the *Mahābhārata* battle was there, Battle of Kurukṣetra, that is a chapter in the *Mahābhārata*. And Kṛṣṇa is the speaker in that Battle of Kurukṣetra and Arjuna is the fighter. How do you take away the Kṛṣṇa of *Mahābhārata* from the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra? What is your reason? Guest (1): No, that is all right. Kṛṣṇa, we call... But do we take it, do you take it... *Prabhupāda: You have to take it, because there is no difference. As soon as you bring in Mahābhārata and Kṛṣṇa, the Kṛṣṇa is the same. You cannot take it differently. Because Kṛṣṇa is speaking to one of the parties of the fighters, the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, and that is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samaveta yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. Yuyutsavaḥ means two parties desiring to fight. Who are those parties? Māmakaḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva [Bg. 1.1]. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. That is the Mahābhārata history. So how you can differentiate this Kṛṣṇa, that Kṛṣṇa? There is no possibility, it is imagination. The beginning is Mahābhārata and the Bhagavad-gītā. *Guest (2) (Indian man): Swamiji, excuse me for this, I read an article recently. One of my secretaries he brought that article to me, it was written by Dr. Bannerji in India*-he's a professor at Calcutta University. And he says that Kṛṣṇa and the Mahābhārata, the Kurukṣetra, that is all a visionation. *Prabhupāda: That is his foolishness. He's a fool. He does not know the facts, and he has posed himself as a learned scholar. That is the difficulty*-fools and rascals presenting themselves as scholar and misrepresenting. People are being misguided. Because he is a learned scholar, you are citing his example. But he is a fool. He does not know what is Mahābhārata, what is Kṛṣṇa. And still, he wants to say something, that is his foolishness. He does not know, and still he wants to speak something. That is cheating. The cheating propensity is there for conditioned souls. He does not know one thing, still he wants to speak as an authority. That is cheating. How you can differentiate? If you are actually student of Mahābhārata, then how we can differentiate the speaker in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra and Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is accepted there as Bhagavān. Whenever Vyāsadeva writes Kṛṣṇa statements, he writes bhagavān uvāca. He's Bhagavān, as well as He's a historical person in the Mahābhārata. He never writes kṛṣṇa uvāca, he writes bhagavān uvāca. And Arjuna admits, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān puruṣam ādyam [Bg. 10.12], "You are the Supreme Person." How can you differentiate Kṛṣṇa of Mahābhārata and Kṛṣṇa of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa...? These are miscalculations. Guest (1): No, sir, we didn't say Kṛṣṇa of Mahābhārata; *we said that when you read the Vedic literatures, there comes some nirguṇa*-brahman and saguṇa-brahman. Now my question... Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa is paraṁ brahman. Guest (1): Yes, but my plain feeling came, sir... Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, the Brahman, there are... We are all Brahman, living entities. We are simply thinking "I am this body." So when we are... That I was speaking, liberation. When we come to the conclusion that "I am not this body," ahaṁ brahmāsmi... So you are already Brahman, but you are, forgetfully, you are thinking that you are Indian. That is māyā. We are all Brahman, but due to our ignorance, lack of knowledge, we are thinking "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am this," "I am that." That is māyā. So when you actually understand that "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul," that is the fact. Then that condition is called brahma*-bhūtaḥ. Now we are jīva-bhūtaḥ. We are thinking "I am individual person of this country, of this religion." That is jīva-bhūtaḥ. But when we understand that we are not jīva-bhūtaḥ, we are brahma-bhūtaḥ, that is our liberated position. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. When one becomes actually in understanding that "I am not this body, I am spirit soul," then my all responsibility of this bodily condition immediately ceases. I am not this body. And why I am working for this body? Why I am in ignorance? That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. That is liberated stage. So we are already Brahman, there is no question of becoming Brahman. We are mistaking something else, that "I am not Brahman." So when we come to the actual understanding, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. Brahmā-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu... [Bg. 18.54]. Then he see everyone on equal level, that every soul is Brahman. *That is sama*-darśinaḥ. He sees the same soul within a learned brāhmaṇa and within a dog. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. That is the stage of bhakti. *So when you come to the standard of bhakti, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. Unless you come to that stage, you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, you will mistake. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. This siddhi means to become liberated from the bodily concept of life. So out of many millions of people, one gets the opportunity of becoming siddha, brahma*-bhūtaḥ, and yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ [Bg. 7.3]. And those who are siddhas, liberated, out of many of them, kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ. So how this Mr. Bannerji will understand Kṛṣṇa? He is not a bhakta, he cannot understand. He can talk of the honey within the bottle. He cannot taste it. If he wants to taste, somebody must be able to open the bottle and give him little. Then he'll get. Otherwise, let him lick up the bottle. (laughter) That's all. So those who are licking the bottle, they cannot say what is the taste of the honey. One must actually taste. That is possible, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55], that taste is available by the bhaktas, not by the so-called scholars. That is not possible. Nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyaḥ. That is Vedic injunction. Na medhayā, na bahunā śrutena. You cannot realize self by your intelligence or by your learning or by your brain. Nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyaḥ na bahunā śrutena. So when the ātmā, Paramātmā, reveals Himself to somebody, he can understand. And that revelation is possible when you are a bhakta. Otherwise, it is not... It clearly says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. It never says "By brain, one can understand." Never says, "By speculation, one can understand." No, this is not the process. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. In the beginning, He said kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ. Yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]. Those who are siddhas, already liberated, out of them, many, many, still, they are unable to understand, tattvataḥ, in truth. But here He says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. Only through bhakti one can understand in truth what is Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is not possible. Because one is scholar he can understand Kṛṣṇa, that is not the fact. Mr. Deyani: But this paradox which is existing mostly in *Vedas* terms, that the form of the God is neti neti, and they say that whichever people like Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, they call it, is a... *Prabhupāda: They say! What they say, they have no value. Because if it is a fact that one can understand God through bhakti, so whatever bhakta says, that is value. What a nonsense says, it has no value. It has no value. "They say." First of all, you have to think what they are. Are they speculator or bhakta? Just like beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa said bhakto 'si, "I am talking to you Bhagavad-gītā because you are My bhakta." So it is the subject matter..., bhagavān is the subject matter for the bhakta, not for others. Others, they will speculate only. They will never understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Guest (3) (Indian man): Yesterday you said: *Prabhupāda: Yes, this is dharmasya glānir. That those who are not bhaktas, speculators, they are talking of God. This is dharmasya glānir. How they can talk of God? They cannot talk. Even they are talking, that is misleading, because nobody can talk of God unless you are devotee of God. You see? Bhakto 'si. Fourth Chapter. The subject matter of Bhagavad*-gītā is to be understood by a bhakta, not by a speculator. Read it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ [Bg. 4.3]. *Prabhupāda: Ah, "I am just talking to you that purātanaḥ, old yoga system, which I spoke to the sun*-god." "Why you are talking to me?" Then? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhakto 'si me... *Prabhupāda: Bhakto 'si me. He was not a Vedantist, he was a soldier. How the soldier can understand the highest topics of bhakti*-yoga? Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. It is the yoga. How a soldier... Arjuna was not a Vedantist, he was a fighter. There was a doubt that "How a soldier can understand?" Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, bhakto 'si, "You can understand because you are My bhakta." The first qualification, one must be a bhakta. Then he can understand. Otherwise it is not possible. Mr. Deyani: How then can the God come in a human form, because human, when you talk of human body, it is a limited... *Prabhupāda: He does not come in human form. He is like human being, dvi*-bhuja. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. He's... In the Bible it is said that man is made after God. The human being, two hands, two legs, this body they have got, that is the original form of God. But because He comes in that form, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11], they think that He is a man. His original form is (like) that. But because we are habituated to see two hands, two legs of human being, we take Him as human being. But that is His original form. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. Find out. So if we accept Him as a human being like us, then we are mūḍhā, rascals. He says avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto [Bg. 9.11]. They do not know what is behind this human form. God is omnipotent, almighty. He can take any form He likes. You cannot check Him. You cannot say "How Brahman can come in a human form?" Why He cannot come? If He is all-powerful, where is the difficulty? Taking your argument, if Brahman is all-powerful, then where is the difficulty for Him to come as a human being? Guest (2): No, there cannot be no difficulty. That is reasonable. *Prabhupāda: But if we take Him... Just like here there are so many gentlemen, now here is a lawyer or here is a high*-court judge, and if I take him, that he's also an ordinary man, that is my mistake. Even if he comes as ordinary visitor, still he's high-court judge. His position is not declined. Guest (2): That, sir, we will have to accept. Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa, even you take that He has come as human being, still He is Kṛṣṇa, He is God. That is explained. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Translation: "Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be." Guest (2): Yes, but these type of statements have been made in all the other religions also. The prophet always speaks like... Prabhupāda: Yes, the prophet can speak. Prophet is representative of God. Guest (2): Yes, it is just like that, sir, just you said it is like a small pond and big pond. No doubt, He is a big light. You cannot that thing. But what my confusion is, is this thing, that we have to, and a bhakta will also, with a limited sense, will never be able to go to that extent unless he has to surrender to some bigger power than him. And what I think... Prabhupāda: That we, we take Kṛṣṇa as the bigger power. Guest (2): Sure, we have to take. This is my... We have to take a bigger power. Otherwise... Prabhupāda: So if we take Kṛṣṇa as bigger power, there is no controversy. Whatever He says you have to accept. Guest (2): No, we have to take like this. Just like we have to take even some of this, any statement you make, we are going to take it because we think people of your status, who have experienced the life, which I didn't do, they are the authority on that thing. Prabhupāda: No, if you accept Kṛṣṇa authority, then at least He is bigger than you. Guest (2): Yes, sure. Not only authority on this thing. Because they have experienced, they have gone through that stage. And definitely we have to, because the..., just like from a teacher a boy learns, and it is that method. You have to learn from a higher person. Prabhupāda: So you do accept Kṛṣṇa as the highest authority, and not only you accept, but all other authorities, they accept. Find out this verse. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Prabhupāda: Puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam ādi*-devam ajaṁ vibhum. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda: So this is confirmation that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So if we accept Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then you have to accept Him as He says. Guest (2): As a great power, yes. *Prabhupāda: Not great power, but greatest power. Nobody is greater than Him. That is accepted by the direct listener of Bhagavad*-gītā, Arjuna. And he is giving evidences of Vyāsadeva, Asita, Devala, Nārada, they are authorities. And in the recent years, the ācāryas Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they have all accepted. And He speaks also. Then where is doubt? Where is doubt? Guest (2): No, I just want to clear this thing, that thing I accept, sir, this thing that it is a great power, the supreme power. Prabhupāda: Not a great, the great power. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. There is no more greater power than Him. That is His position. Guest (2): My point is, sometimes this, a difference comes in this thing. Suppose a man of other religion says, okay... Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not question of religion. It is a question of God. God is great. That is accepted by all religions. So if Kṛṣṇa is great, then He is God. Where is the argument? Guest (2): Then they didn't come, just like you stated, that... Prabhupāda: Then you have to study Kṛṣṇa, that where is the great, the only great. Then you'll understand. God is great, there is... No religion will differ in this connection. But if find that "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the greatest," then you have to accept. There is no other argument. So I'll take a little time go to shower. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees and guests offer obeisances) Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda is coming back in about five minutes, he's just going to the bathroom. [break] (Prabhupāda returns) ...original Back to Godhead. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We got it from the Library of Congress. *Prabhupāda: So God is great. Now we have to analyze what is the greatness. A man is supposed to be great when he is very rich. A man is supposed to be great when he is very wise, man of knowledge, strength, reputation. So item by item, you analyze and see, you'll see Kṛṣṇa is the greatest. By reasoning. Therefore He is God. They have been analyzed. You'll find in The Nectar of Devotion, the Gosvāmīs have analyzed the characteristics of Kṛṣṇa, and they found Him the greatest. So if God is great, and He is the greatest, then He is God. How can you deny it? At least, we can see in the Bhagavad*-gītā, the little knowledge given by Kṛṣṇa, it is still standing as the greatest. Five thousand years past, nobody could give such a book of knowledge throughout the whole world. The Bhagavad-gītā is studied not only by the Indians and Hindus but by all scholars of the world. Even such persons who think that there is somebody greater than Kṛṣṇa, they also read Bhagavad-gītā and they recite from the Bhagavad-gītā. Even Śaṅkarācārya, the leader of the Māyāvādīs, he says Bhagavad-gītā kiñcid adhītā. Is it not? Does he not say? *Guest (3): Was it not true also Śaṅkarācārya Swamiji who said vande kṛṣṇa jagat*-guru? Prabhupāda: Yes, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindam... *Guest (3): Vande Kṛṣṇa jagat*-guru. *Prabhupāda: So he's the leader of the impersonalists, he accepts kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Sa bhagavān svayam kṛṣṇa. Then what to speak of the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. Rāmānujācārya has given Bhagavad*-gītā comments, every line Vedic evidence. You read Bhagavad-gītā commented by Rāmānujācārya, you'll find every line he has quoted from Vedas. So there is no doubt about it. Simply one has to study very intelligently about Kṛṣṇa, then he will come to the conclusion that He is God. Guest (4) (Indian man): I'd like to ask a question, but I'm a little bit timid about doing so, but I will ask it. Would it be possible to think of.... Well, first I have to say that I tend to think of religions as personalities. Would it be possible... Prabhupāda: Why? Guest (3): All the religions. Prabhupāda: No, no, why you think like that? You are not authority. Guest (4): I merely say that I do. I don't say that I'm right to do so. I don't say why, I simply do. *Prabhupāda: This is due to our limited knowledge. Because I am a person, I have got my limited knowledge. I am thinking of God, "If God is a person, then He has limited knowledge." That means I am bringing God to my level. That is my defect. We say God is all*-powerful, almighty, still He cannot become a person. Why do you think that? If He is almighty, He can become person. Then why do you deny it? Guest (4): I don't. Prabhupāda: Then there is no question, you see. Guest (4): But I still want to ask a question, not that it's a right question, but I do want to ask it. I'm not sure that I can formulate it, but it would be a little like this, maybe. Uh, uh, well, maybe I don't have to ask it. I'll skip it. (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, you are Christian? Guest (4): No. I am... Prabhupāda: You are not Christian? Whatever you may be... *Guest (4): Would it be possible to say*-this is my question-would it be possible to say that all the religions are, as it were, aspects of the personality of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: No, our definition of religion is that religion is the word or the law given by God. That is religion. Guest (4): Yes, but then there are these religions. There's more than one. Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to agree on the principle. Religion means the word of God or the law given by God. That is religion. *Guest (4): But I go into a Catholic Church and I feel a different environmental personality from the environmental personality I feel when I come here. Or, and, if I'm looking for God, which I think is here, I feel God, certainly I feel it very strongly, in your person-well, that's a brutal thing to say, but I do*-and that is... Prabhupāda: That we have already explained. Because every living entity is part and parcel of God, so just like the particle of gold, the gold is there. There is no doubt about it. Guest (4): Yes, but sometimes you feel it more than at other times. Prabhupāda: That may be big particle or small particle. But particle there may be different sizes, that is another thing, but as soon as you get a particle, the gold is already there. Similarly, whenever you find any living entity, God is there. Guest (4): That certainly answers my question then. It really does. Thank you. *Prabhupāda: And actually God is there with the living entity, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. He particularly pointed out, "Here is God within their core of the heart." Now the yogis, they try to find out God in his body, that is called meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. This is process of the yogis, to find out God within himself. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also stated jagatvena, tat tvena (?) Find out. So God is everywhere, there is no doubt about it. Within you, within me, within the atom, everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs. 5.35]. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā also, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam, "I am everywhere." So God is everywhere, that is God's omnipresence, omnipotency. But still God has His actual position. Na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ. *So this is a great science. If we understand, then we can understand what is God, what is His position, how He is great, everything. That is His greatness. Although He is in His own abode, still, He is everywhere. That is His greatness. I am here, I am not in my bedroom, but about God it is said, goloka eva nivasaty akhilātmā*-bhuto [Bs. 5.37]. That is God. He is far, far away from our, this planet. There is a planet, goloka eva nivasaty. He's there, but still He is everywhere. That is His greatness. That is the distinction between Him and us. We are in one place, but we are not all-pervading. In another verse it is explained, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor [Bg. 13.3]. Kṣetra kṣetrajñaḥ. The living entity is kṣetrajñāḥ, one who knows about his body. The body is called kṣetra, field, field of activities. I am working with this body. The cat is working with his body, dog is working with his body, mosquito is working with his body. The body is the field of activity, and the soul within the body is the owner of the body, or occupier of the body, not owner. So God is also with him. Therefore He says kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. God is present along with the living entity, I or you, in everything. I know the pains and pleasure of my body, you know the pains and pleasure of your body, but God knows the pains and pleasure of your body, my body, his body, this body, that body. That is the difference between God and you. These things are explained. Go on, read it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Translation: "O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its owner is called knowledge. That is My opinion." Prabhupāda: That is greatness. This is the distinction. God is great. I know about my body, you know about your body, but God knows about your body and my body and his body and every... That is greatness. That is explained. That is the distinction. I am small, He is great. I cannot think beyond the scope of this body, or little more. But he knows everything. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni [Bg. 7.26]. That is His greatness. So in this way, we study the greatness of God, then we can understand what is God and what is not God. Guest (4): Thanks. Prabhupāda: What is the purport? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "While discussing the subject of this body and the owner of the body, the soul and the Supersoul, we shall find three different topics of study: the Lord, the living entity, and matter. In every field of activities, in every body, there are two souls: the individual soul and the Supersoul. Because the Supersoul is the plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, 'I am also the knower, but I am not the individual owner of the body. I am the superknower. I am present in every body as the Paramātmā, or Supersoul.' One who studies the subject matter of the field of activity and the knower of the field very minutely, in terms of this Bhagavad*-gītā, can attain to knowledge. The Lord says: 'I am the knower of the field of activities in every individual body.' The individual may be the knower of his own body, but he is not in knowledge of other bodies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is present as the Supersoul in all bodies, knows everything about all bodies. He knows all the different bodies of all the various species of life. A citizen may know everything about his patch of land, but the king knows not only his palace but all the properties possessed by the individual citizens. Similarly, one may be the proprietor of the body individually, but the Supreme Lord is the proprietor of all bodies. The king is the original proprietor of the kingdom, and the citizen is the secondary proprietor. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the supreme proprietor of all bodies. The body consists of the senses. The Supreme Lord is Hṛṣīkeśa, which means controller of the senses. He is the original controller of the senses just as the king is the original controller of all the activities of the state, and the citizens are secondary controllers. The Lord also says: 'I am also the knower.' This means that He is the superknower; the individual soul knows only his particular body. In the Vedic literature, it is stated as follows: *[break] This body is called the kṣetra, and within it dwells the owner of the body and the Supreme Lord, who knows both the body and the owner of the body. Therefore He is called the knower of all fields. The distinction between the field of activities, the owner of activities, and the supreme owner of activities is described as follows. Perfect knowledge of the constitution of the body, the constitution of the individual soul, and the constitution of the Supersoul is known in terms of Vedic literature as jñānam. That is the opinion of Kṛṣṇa. To understand both the soul and the Supersoul as one yet distinct is knowledge. One who does not understand the field of activity activity and the knower of activity is not in perfect knowledge. One has to understand the position of prakṛti (nature), and puruṣa (the enjoyer of the nature), and īśvara (the knower who dominates or controls nature and the individual soul). One should not confuse the three in their different capacities. One should not confuse the painter, the painting and the easel. This material world, which is the field of activities, is nature, and the enjoyer of nature is the living entity, and above them both is the supreme controller, the Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the Vedic language: bhoktā bhogyaṁ preritaraṁ ca matvā sarvaṁ proktaṁ tri*-vidhaṁ brahmam etat. There are three Brahman conceptions: prakṛti is Brahman as the field of activities, and the jīva (individual soul) is also Brahman and is trying to control material nature, and the controller of both of them is also Brahman, but He is the factual controller." Prabhupāda: Therefore, He is called Param Brahman. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman, but He is Param Brahman. That is accepted by Arjuna, paraṁ brahma paraṁ brahma pavitram. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "In this chapter it will also be explained that out of the two knowers, one is fallible and the other is infallible; one is superior and the other subordinate. One who understands the two knowers of the field to be one and the same contradicts the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who states here very clearly that 'I am also the knower of the field of activity.' One who misunderstands a rope to be a serpent is not in knowledge." *Prabhupāda: He says "I am also." Ksetrajñaṁ ca. Ca means "also." They are two. Individual, kṣetrajñaḥ, and the collective, kṣetrajñaṁ ca. There is kṣetrajñam, I am also there. They are two, not one. Ksetrajñaṁ cāpi ca api, kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi. As soon as there is ca, "and," then there are two. Not one. One is subordinate and one is supreme. Therefore He is addressed, paraṁ brahma. Brahma..., jīva is also Brahman. But He is Param Brahman. Paramātmā: Jīva is also ātmā, but He is Paramātmā. Parameśvara: jīva is also īśvara, but He is Parameśvara. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. This is Vedic version. There are īśvaras, controllers, many controllers, but parama controller, Parameśvara, is Kṛṣṇa. *That is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā, aham adir hi devanam... [Bg 10.2]. *He is Param Brahma, He is the supreme great. You study and then you will understand. But without understanding, if we take that He is also a human being, that is mistake. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto mama bhuta*-maheśvaram [Bg. 9.11]. "He does not know what is My background, he's a mūḍha." Therefore mūḍha, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. We should not remain a mūḍha; *we should be intelligent to understand Kṛṣṇa. And that is possible only through bhakti. Kṛṣṇa specifically mentions, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. He never says, "By jñāna, yoga, karma, one can understand Me." No. Bhakti. Bhakto si, "You will understand, Arjuna, because you are My bhakta." That is first qualification to understand Kṛṣṇa. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena [Bg. 4.34]. A bhakta is submissive. And nondevotees, they are not submissive. They are so proud that they say "I am Bhagavān, I am God." So that attitude will not help to understand. (Prabhupāda converses in Hindi with an Indian lady about how one does not have to renounce family life to understand Kṛṣṇa.) He says paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. He understands perfectly. There is no question of gṛhastha or sannyāsī. It is a question of understanding. And Arjuna is gṛhastha, politician, fighter, and still he is selected to understand Bhagavad*-gītā. So gṛhastha. (Hindi) ...in gṛhastha life or sannyāsī, Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says like that, kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya. (Hindi) I shall speak in English so that others.... Kibā vipra, whether one is a brāhmaṇa, kibā śūdra, or whether he is a śūdra, nyāsī kene naya, or whether he is a sannyāsī. That means whether he is a gṛhastha or brāhmaṇa, or.... There are eight varṇāśrama-brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, whatever he may be, out of these eight categories. Anyone who understands Kṛṣṇa perfectly, he is guru. Just like Arjuna is our guru, but he's a gṛhastha, he's a soldier, he's a kṣatriya. He's neither brāhmaṇa nor sannyāsī nor Vedantist, nothing of the sort. But he knows Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is guru. So gṛhastha (Hindi). Śravaṇam, this is the first step of bhakti. Hear about Kṛṣṇa from the right source. Otherwise you will be misguided. Therefore Kṛṣṇa recommends, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. You have to go to a person where you can surrender. (Hindi) Guest (3): How to...? Prabhupāda: That we have to test, whether I can surrender to him. That we have to behave with him. Therefore according to system, one has to study that "Whether I can surrender to him?" If you think that "No, I know better than him," don't accept a formal guru. That is mistake. And guru also will see, "He's appealing to me, he is going to accept my discipleship, let me see whether he is qualified." Then there should be guru and śiṣya, not that as a fashion. Like Arjuna, Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as guru after talking with Him. Find out that verse, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam. *Guest (3): Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma*-sammūḍha-cetāḥ. Prabhupāda: When he was convinced that "I do not find anyone else to give me instruction," then he surrendered. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Translation: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me." Prabhupāda: Everyone is perplexed conditioned. In this material world, you cannot find anyone who is not perplexed. Is there anyone who is not perplexed? Can anyone say that "I am not perplexed"? (laughs) Everyone is. Therefore everyone requires guru. But a guru knows. Guru means like Kṛṣṇa or His representative. Yes? Guest (4): Sir, you explained that Paramātmā is within everyone, every individual, human and animal alike, and you also explained that Paramātmā is within every atom, too, within the universe. Does that means that I have one Paramātmā plus about six trillion other Paramātmās in the.... Prabhupāda: No, Paramātmā is the same. Paramātmā is the same. Not the Paramātmā within yourself is different from the Paramātmā within myself. The Paramātmā is the same. Just like the sun. If you put here millions of pots with water, in each pot you'll find the sun. But the sun is one. When the sun is on the head, you just phone your friend five hundred miles or five thousand miles away, "Can you tell me where is the sun?" He will say "It is on my head." How it is possible? Everyone will say, "Now the sun is on my head." That is Paramātmā. He is one, but everyone will say "He's within me, over my head." That is Paramātmā. Paramātmā is one, but He is everywhere. That is Paramātmā. And I am ātmā, I am only here, that's all. That is the difference. He's not different. Because He is within the core of the heart of a dog and within the core of the heart of a human being, He is different? No. He is the same. Therefore, paṇḍitāḥ samaḥ darśinaḥ. Guest (4): What about the other atoms within me or the dog? Do you understand what I'm getting at? There are millions of atoms. Hari-śauri: He's saying this body is comprised of atoms, so the Paramātmā is present within this body alongside the individual soul that's operating this body. But there's also millions of other atoms, and Kṛṣṇa is also within the atoms as well. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (4): I thank you. *Vipina: Mr. Deyani brought a person that he studies under one time to meet me at the temple, and he took a very remote verse out of the Bhagavad*-gītā about sacrifice, and his idea is that to perform yajña is the way to purify the universe in this age of Kali-yuga, and Deyani was very supportive of him. So I was wondering maybe you could explain a little. Prabhupāda: Now yajña means, what does it mean, "by yajña"? *Mr. Deyani: Swamiji, he says that whole Vedic religion is in five, yajña*-dāna-tapaḥ-karma-śraddhāya. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā, yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-karma na tyājyaṁ kāryam eva tat. *Mr. Deyani: Yes, he said that. Now he brought one more point, he says all the world over people have forgotten. Every morning we do..., he says yajña has many meanings, but he says yajña means to burn the cow ghee in the fire, and this fumigation, he gives here certain purifies the atmosphere and thus, if you do it at the right time in the morning, when the sun-there is some time which he gives*-and in the evening, he says you will yourself see that your mind changes, your praṇa, it affect your praṇa, and then it affects your mind, and if you are-anyway, you will try to understand yourself by yourself. Once you do, he says it's just a physical aid, it is not any spiritual thing, but this is a physical aid. And that is what our, there are, many Americans are doing there this program. And he gives a very nice scientific background of that thing, which convinces me that what we Hindus, what our Vedic literature, what they have said, it has some scientific meaning behind it, why we did it. Prabhupāda: But thing is, accepting his statement, first of all, where is ghee? Mr. Deyani: Well, in this country you can get. Prabhupāda: In this country, but there are places there is no ghee. Then how you will perform? Your first proposition is ghee, but where is ghee? It is all dalda. Now how you can perform yajña? I am talking as a matter of argument. If ghee is not available, then how yajña will be performed? Mr. Deyani: That is actually the question when I first met him. (laughter) I asked him, really, I told him... Prabhupāda: Then his proposal is failure. Now you have to take the instruction in the *Vedas*, that *In the Kali*-yuga, the real yajña is hari-kīrtana. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. Sumedhasaḥ, those who have got good brain, they perform this yajña, hari-kīrtana. So there is no condition. God has give you the tongue. Either you are here or there, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. Indian lady: Is number important in chanting? It has to be certain number, or you can just chant? *Prabhupāda: Number? Yes, of course, no. Actually, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. Always to be chanted. But because you cannot do that, therefore you must fix up a number. Saṅkhyā*-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka, that "I must chant so many times." That is determination. I have prescribed to my disciples that "You must chant at least sixteen rounds." That is very easy. But there is saṅkhyā. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. The Gosvāmīs, they used to do that. So it is; *otherwise, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. The chanting should go on twenty*-four hours. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura used to do. He was simply chanting. But that is not possible for ordinary man. Therefore they should have a fixed up, that "I must chant so many times." That will fix up the determination. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. There must be some dṛḍha-vratāḥ, that "I must do it." Then the devotion grows very firm. If we become lenient, "All right, I shall do later on..." No, must be done. Dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. Dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Everything should be determined. Then spiritual progress will be rapid. *Mr. Deyani: So many, when we go to our offices, since we come from India, naturally the very intelligent young boys and girls, they ask various questions to us. And just for the sake of their curiosity, naturally they ask the question about the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we try to explain our ways, whatever we know. What explanation we have got when they put the example of, you know, that sixteen*-year-old guru and something like that kind of things? What explanation we have got in that circumstance. In that circumstance, what explanation we have got as an individual for the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This young boy guru, when they bring up this subject matter to the Indians who have come from India who are working here in America, they feel a little embarrassed, loss for words or explanation what to say, that this is their Indian culture, they feel they don't know how to represent themselves. Mr. Deyani: How to represent the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? This is my question. How to represent it? What to say to them? Prabhupāda: What is your question? That means you do not know about him. Mr. Deyani: We don't know about those gurus... Prabhupāda: You say "I do not know about him," that's all. The simple truth that "I do not know about it." Why you are very serious about him? It is not very important matter. Mr. Deyani: I even don't know who is he. (laughter) To tell you the truth, I even don't know. (laughter) My wife, she sometimes, why she watch him on the television. There was a program or something like that, that now we, I don't watch that anymore. Prabhupāda: It is not important. *Guest (2): Swamiji, you just said about the guru, in the Bhagavad-gītā, again after He is explaining to Arjuna all what He said, then ultimately he comes and he says-which the problem in our practical life comes which I see, I see it with me*-he spoke very frankly, cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi balavad dṛḍham [Bg. 6.34]. Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? Guest (2): After, you know, the Kṛṣṇa, He has explained to Arjuna all the religion and spirituality, and still a man of the caliber of Arjuna speaks, then he said, cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi balavad dṛḍham, that verse. Prabhupāda: That is said in the Sixth Chapter [Bg. 6.34]. Guest (2): That comes in practical life. One might even say that you try to go to a spiritual area, then all these things do come in everybody's life. Prabhupāda: No, that was spoken in connection with practicing yoga. Guest (2): But Arjuna got it due to guru, like Kṛṣṇa means is it possible in this age if one has the right guru, a man, he can elevate himself? *Prabhupāda: You can take Arjuna as guru. Kṛṣṇa spoke to Arjuna, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. He directly listened to Him. And he's guru therefore, because the guru is by the paramparā. So he understood Kṛṣṇa. So you take Arjuna's instruction. Make Arjuna your guru. What does he say? He accepts Kṛṣṇa, Param Brahman. So we accept Kṛṣṇa as Param Brahma. Where is the difficulty? Arjuna, by his direct experience talking with Kṛṣṇa, he understood Him that "Kṛṣṇa, you are Param Brahman." So you take the words of Arjuna and accept Him as Param Brahman. Where is the difficulty? Just like the same example, one lawyer giving example, the judgment of other court. That is accepted. So Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa as Param Brahman. So why don't you accept? Where is the difficulty? You accept Arjuna as your guru, and whatever he says, you accept it. The difficulty is that we do not accept guru. That is the difficulty. Otherwise where is difficulty? Five thousand years, Kṛṣṇa spoke to Arjuna, but what Arjuna understood, that is there. So you accept it. What we are doing? We are accepting. That's all. Kṛṣṇa said mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7], "There is no more superior truth beyond Me." We are accepting, that's all. Where is the difficulty? But if you do not accept, who can make you to accept? It is not possible. Kṛṣṇa therefore said mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. "You do it." He never forces him. He's God, He can force, "You must do it." No, he doesn't say "You do it." Not only that, He says yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63], "Whatever you like, you do." What is that verse? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Iti te jñānam... Prabhupāda: Iti te jñānam, huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ākhyātam. Prabhupāda: Ākhyātam, "I have spoken to you everything about knowledge." Then? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā. Prabhupāda: Guhyād guhyataram. "Jñānam confidential, more confidential, I have spoken to you, one after another." Then? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṇa, Prabhupāda: "Now you consider, vimṛśya. Aśeṣeṇa, without any doubt, fully consider." Then? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. *Prabhupāda: Yathecchasi tathā kuru, full liberty. He never says that "You must do it." No, He never forces. "I have spoken to you everything of all knowledge. Now you consider it, deliberate deliberately. Then you decide yourself what to do." The liberty is given. "But My opinion is sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is My opinion. You do it. Otherwise, you do whatever you like." This liberty is there. "But if you, as you are My friend, then I give you the most confidential knowledge." Sarva*-guhyatamam, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. So it is open to everyone to accept or not to accept. But if you want Kṛṣṇa's opinion, then there is opinion, sarva-dharmān parityajya. Now it is up to you. *Guest (5) (Indian man): Swamiji, perhaps you can..., when people ask about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is only limited to a few full*-time devotees, I had expressed, now in Gītā, it is expressed, now read the words according to basic extents to people who follow and accept Kṛṣṇa to practically everyone, to everyone. Prabhupāda: Who? Everyone? Everyone is Kṛṣṇa? No? Guest (5): To all the people who want to accept movement. Anybody who wants to accept Kṛṣṇa and *Gītā*, he is part of, and he can be a part of the Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest (5): He can be a part of the Kṛṣṇa movement, with whatever, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ [Bg. 9.26]. Prabhupāda: So you read next. Guest (5): *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-karmaṇā? *Guest (5): Sva*-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya Prabhupāda: Vaca? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Abhyarcya. *Prabhupāda: Abhyarcya, that is the important word. Sarva*-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya. Whatever engagement you may have, with that engagement you abhyarcya, just worship Him. Abhyarcya means worshiping. Guest (5): Tam abhyarcya. Prabhupāda: Tam abhyarcya, yes. So tam, the supreme, He who worshiped. And He is the Supreme. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. So in any position, if you worship Kṛṣṇa, then it is all right. Guest (5): But is that correct? Prabhupāda: That is the correct, yes. Guest (5): So after giving all this in the chapter eighteen, then He points out that despite all these things. *Prabhupāda: No, the thing is, best thing is sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Guest (5): Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Prabhupāda: But if you cannot do that, then in your position you can also abhyarcya, you can worship Him. And especially in this age, whatever position you are, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is abhyarcya. He Kṛṣṇa, he hari. Guest (5): Worship Him. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is worship. This is worshiping. "Engage me in Your service." Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. He was simply chanting. He was doing nothing. So simply... You are engaged as professor. You go on with your professorship, but chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the loss? Rather, your students will learn "Oh, he is such a big professor, he is chanting. Let me chant." You'll be preaching at the same time. Guest (5): I'm a bureaucrat, no longer a professor. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be... Because yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. If a chief man practices something, the followers also practice. So a businessman, professor, scientist, philosopher, they chant the holy name of God, there is no taxation, no income tax, but the income is very good. (laughter) So why people do not do it? Guest (5): (Sanskrit).... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained by Caitanya, *The holy name of God is so powerful, as good as God. Nāmnām akāri bahudhā, He has got thousands of names, hundreds of names, and each name is invested with the power of God Himself. So in this age this chanting of holy name of God is recommended, I can take advantage of it, but I am so unfortunate I have no inclination. So easy thing, but still I am so unfortunate I do not wish to take the name of God. This is stated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. etadṛśi tava kṛpā bhagavān mamāpi. "Bhagavān, my Lord, You are so merciful, I can be direct connection with You simply by chanting Your holy name. You have given this facility in this age, and still I am so unfortunate I am not inclined." Tam abhyarcya. We are not inclined to worship. That is the defect. When there is question of worshiping Him, so many things we bring in, not to worship Him, just to counteract the proposal. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. So we bring all kinds of argument how to not to become a bhakta. That is our misfortune. He says "You become My devotee." We are putting arguments, how not to become His devotee. That is our misfortune. We bring all arguments. This is misfortune. Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's 8:30. Want to finish up? Prabhupāda: What is your question? *Vipina: I was talking to Dr. Diksha and I was explaining to him that if he was unable to chant or to become a full*-time devotee, that your program for a person in that condition of life, was something like Life Membership Program, whereby he could become a member of the Society, maintain his occupational duty, but become a member and take books and read and try to understand gradually that way. Is that satisfactory, if they can do that much, that would be, some way they would be serving Kṛṣṇa to your satisfaction? (Prabhupāda laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes, we are taking so much labor in writing books. If somebody reads, certainly that is satisfaction. (laughter) Rūpānuga: It is to their benefit, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if they read. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am writing for reading by others. Rūpānuga: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. What time is the initiation? [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...our temple early in the morning at about seven o'clock Śrīla Prabhupāda will deliver a lecture and also there will be a sacrifice, very ancient sacrifice performed, which is formal initiation, of becoming a disciple of a spiritual master, and you are welcome to come by. It is a very colorful and beautiful ceremony. This will take place tomorrow morning at 7 a.m. here in the temple. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Rūpānuga: Thank you. (end) *Room Conversation With Scientists-*-July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C. (in car) *Rūpānuga: n*-a-m. *Prabhupāda: Sa*-vijñānam *Rūpānuga: n*-a-m? *Prabhupāda: j-ñ*-a. Rūpānuga: Is it hyphenated? Sa, hyphen? Prabhupāda: Yes. I have given you spelling. Or Pradyumna can give it to you. Rūpānuga: That is very artistic also, very nice, literature, very nice. Prabhupāda: : And in bracket you can give "In Scientific Knowledge." Rūpānuga: "In Scientific Knowledge." In English? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (in room) Make that attempt. Then they will know, "Yes America." So these pictures are available to be seen? Yadubara: I think today they will, by this evening, they will... Prabhupāda: How many? *Yadubara: I took about... Well, one boy is doing it for free of charge, he's producing ten of them just to get idea. If we want more, we can get more. I took about twenty*-five. Prabhupāda: All detailed? Yadubara: Some detail, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. Yes, you can close. (door closes) One set to Gargamuni and one set to Saurabha and one set for me, three sets. And if you like, you can keep one set for you. The negative will be with you. What is the height altogether? Yadubara: Actually, I don't know, I didn't get that. I can get that information also. Prabhupāda: So, guessing? Yadubara: Oh, I don't know, two hundred fifty feet? Something like that. Three hundred? Rūpānuga: That's too big, three hundred. The Washington monument is five hundred fifty feet. Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Yadubara: Maybe two hundred. *Rūpānuga: Maybe a hundred seventy*-five. We can check reference book easily. You'll find out today. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we want to make a chart. Now from these gross elements, the five gross elements, we want to extend to... Prabhupāda: Earth, water, air, fire. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: From there we want to include the, let's say this table, ninety*-two..., what scientists call elements, this gold, silver, copper, all these elements. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is within earth. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we are thinking that not only earth, but the water, air. Prabhupāda: In the earth, there is already water, air, ether, fire, everything. Rūpānuga: From previous. Prabhupāda: Earth is the reservoir of all elements. As you go from earth to water, one is minus. From water, you go to fire, one is again minus. In this way, when you go up, ether, there is only one. And earth contains all the five. Svarūpa Dāmodara: All the five gross elements. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So actually we can use just from earth all these ninety*-two elements, like silver, gold... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is in the earth. So many varieties of mixture. Rūpānuga: Now is there an atom for each? Is there a copper atom? Prabhupāda: That we do not take care of atoms, we take gross estimation. Must be atomic differences. Just like gold and mercury, little atomic difference. And it is suggested that tin, copper, and mercury, proportionately mixed it will become gold. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Once you told me that in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you can do that experiment. Then our poverty will be... (laughter) It is fact. There are many yogis, they prepare gold by drinking mercury. They drink mercury, overnight, next morning they pass urine and dip copper coins in it. And then after some time the copper coins put into the fire, it becomes gold. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's alchemist. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, they do that. But it is a fact that copper and tin and mercury proportionately mixed will produce gold. *This example is given by Sanātana Gosvāmī. As kaṁsa... Kaṁsa is mixture of copper and tin, bell metal. When it is properly treated with mercury, it becomes gold. Similarly, a human being properly treated by initiation, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. This example has been given by Sanātana Gosvāmī. Tathā dīkṣā*-vidhānena dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇām. Nṛṇām, he says, "of all human beings." He doesn't say a particular class or particular country. Śuddhyanti prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. Everyone can be purified by the initiation process, by expert spiritual master. That is accepted in the śāstra. Svarūpa Dāmodara: These elements, that science calls elements, gold and mercury, are these several other elements in the Vedic scriptures? Little information how they separate it, the technique they use... Prabhupāda: Oh, that, that is not given. But they, all these metals, they are different forms of earth. You find in ores. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they are all impure. Prabhupāda: That's all right, you have to purify, but they are in the group of earth. We have to purify. Gold is also purified. It is taken from the mine, it is not pure gold. You have to treat it, then pure gold comes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that treatment must involve a lot of process. Prabhupāda: That may be, but by treating you can get, that's all. The metallurgists, they know. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So actually the *Vedas* must have known these techniques, because otherwise they cannot get this gold so easily. Prabhupāda: No, there are gold mountains also. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mount Sumeru? Prabhupāda: There are gold mountains, silver mountains, iron mountains, copper road, everything is there. What is that? Devotee (1): This is a new picture of Mars, just came in the Washington Post today. Here is what the scientists say the mountains are on Mars. Big crater they are talking about. This is a recent photo. Prabhupāda: So? What do they say? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Says it's a Grand Canyon. Just like in Arizona there's a canyon called Grand Canyon. Prabhupāda: So might be from Arizona? (laughter) Like Arizona, that means Arizona. Rūpānuga: Just like Arizona, the same rocks you find in Arizona. Prabhupāda: Just see. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is called Martian Grand Canyon, and an ocean meandering gorge ten times the size of Arizona's Grand Canyon. Prabhupāda: That we can photograph it and make ten times, hundred times. Their business is in Arizona. Rūpānuga: I think so. Prabhupāda: And this is only the propaganda. Rūpānuga: I agree. I think it was all like a movie set. Prabhupāda: That's all. They are not going. Arizona is there, only accept. Why they are taking Arizona? That means they are in Arizona. Just like one man was stealing from the room, and there were some sounds, and the master of the house said "Who is there? What is that sound?" The man said, "No, I am not stealing. No, no I am not stealing." It is like that. (laughter) Rūpānuga: Throughout this article they make comparisons with earth. Prabhupāda: And there is no man. Just see the foolishness. The same logic, "No, no, I am not stealing." Who asked that you are stealing? He asked for the sound, but he disclosed. It is like that. Why they are bringing Arizona? *Rūpānuga: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you catch them red*-handed. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, that I can do. It is like that. Who asked them to speak of Arizona? You are speaking of Arizona. "No, no, I am not stealing." (laughter) It is like that. They could have mentioned other places. Rūpānuga: Arizona is convenient. *Prabhupāda: That means they are working in Arizona. The mind is there. Arizona*-minded because they are working in Arizona, so they are disclosing mind. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they are claiming that this photograph was taken two hundred million miles away from the earth. Prabhupāda: That, they can say anything, but they are doing everything in Arizona. Vipina: What is the point then, Prabhupāda? Just to take money and use it some other way? Prabhupāda: No, no, just to cheat people that they are very big scientists, give them fat salary. That's all. But what people will benefit by this? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to study whether there is life there or not. Prabhupāda: There is life, you do not know. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are not sure yet. Prabhupāda: There is life everywhere. We can say from the śāstra. There cannot be any place vacant. It is not possible. Must be life there. All planets are vacant, simply this planet is congested, overpopulation. What is this nonsense? What is the difference between this planet and other planets, chemically or physiologically? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say there are differences. Prabhupāda: Huh? Differences, that may be little, the difference between cat's body, dog's body, man's body, little difference must be there. But the elements are the same. At least, I'll not believe. No, I am not blind, but in the śāstra, every planet is congested. That is in the *Bhāgavatam*. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, actually we also have some information even in science that there must be life there in other planets. *Prabhupāda: I, he was of my age, perhaps you know his name, Dr. Shah? So he was my friend in Allahabad. So he said, "No there is life." He said, Dr. Menga Shah(?). There is no question of disbelieving, he said, and he is also big scientists, Dr. Menga Shah (?), Dr. Megha*-kunda(?), they were all my customers. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's in U.P.? Prabhupāda: U.P., Allahabad. The Jawaharlal Nehru, he was very big, big customer. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are in fact some reports in the last few years that there is some bacteria that can survive in the medium of ammonia*-ammonia is alkaline solution. Normally life survives in... Prabhupāda: Life survives in fire, water, fire. That is our information. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also they proved that there are certain bacteria that can survive in about a 170 degrees. High temperature. *Prabhupāda: Why bacteria? Human beings. Otherwise, how Kṛṣṇa is speaking the sun-god? Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. Simply the sun*-god is alone living? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: Then the sun planet there are living entities. Their body is made of fire, that's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it's better to say that when science says, scientists say there is no life in other planets, we can conclude that the senses or the forms that we have, or the elements that we have different... Prabhupāda: They are different. Just like in the water, superficially we don't see any living being. But inside you go, there are many millions of living entities. They took photograph. What is the meaning of photograph from such a distance? If you take photograph of the sea, what you will find? It is vacant. So the rascals are taking photograph, and I have to believe it. Photograph, what is the meaning of photograph? There is no meaning. Take the photograph of the sea, if I know what is there. Then go deep into the water, you'll find millions and trillions. Sadāpūta: There are also living entities living in the air that we can't see. Prabhupāda: You can't see so many things. What is the value of your eyes? Why do you believe so much your eyes? You cannot see even your eyelids, so close. Still, you are blind. When there is some particle, you cannot see. You have to struggle how to get out this particle. If you see, then take it. So what is the value of your eyes? Why do you believe so much? Adhyakṣa, they are called adhyakṣa, only believe in direct perception. Hari-śauri: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Let him come. So? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Getting French visa was done, and tomorrow I pick up your passport and apply for Iran visa. Then just one more, Italy, remains. Prabhupāda: Why do they speak about seeing? What is the value of your seeing? I have seen the Atlantic Ocean, that means I have seen everything? This is ludicrous. Rūpānuga: They may simply speculate from a distance, that "Here is the surface," like here... Prabhupāda: That's all. Real business is speculation. Rūpānuga: Here it says, here, this is some great, here... Prabhupāda: Oh, that is "I am not stealing." Rūpānuga: Twelve hundred miles above the surface. Now they want to speculate what is there. Prabhupāda: Who asked him that who is stealing? But he said "I am not stealing." Rūpānuga: That is perfect, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Why he brings Arizona? Who asked him? That means that their business in Arizona. Rūpānuga: They have exposed themselves. Prabhupāda: Rascals, how they are cheating people. Rūpānuga: Such a big hoax. They have spent billions of dollars for such a hoax. Prabhupāda: Now you consider whether I am right or wrong. The moon planet is also Arizona. (laughs) All their business asset is there. Rūpānuga: So one of the things we want to do is expose this cheating. Should we expose this kind of thing directly like this, or should we indirectly deal with it? Prabhupāda: No, you do scientifically. I give you the hint. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: If we say that, they will be mad at the... Prabhupāda: Give psychology. Say "Who asked him about Arizona? Why he is speaking Arizona?" That means they are in Arizona. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So. Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it all right to include that, these ninety*-two chemical elements as finer, er, finer form of earth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mixture of so many things. But actually, that is the fact. Just like iron, gold, everything you find. Just like earth, but you have to purify. Rūpānuga: So earth is a mixture of all these different elements? Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we can call this... Prabhupāda: Different quality of earth. Rūpānuga: Like subcategory. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, in water also, all these, most of these earth materials are there, because it dissolves in water. Water is so many salts and elements, in a dissolved form. Prabhupāda: That I told you, that in the earth all other five elements are there. Rūpānuga: So water precedes earth in the creation. Water comes first. Prabhupāda: No, ether. Rūpānuga: I mean water comes before earth. Earth is last, and water is just before. So that we find earth in water. Prabhupāda: Water it dries up. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's saying you can find earth in water. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: That's the point you made. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That I am stating, that when water dries up, we find deposits of earth. Rūpānuga: Yes, because it precedes, and earth is being created from water, so you'll find earth in water originally. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But still water is one element less than earth. Prabhupāda: No, earth is full of all elements. Hari-śauri: What he is saying is back to front then. If earth has all the elements in it, then the other one says you go successively back, should have one less. So why is it water has earth in it when earth is the last one to be produced? Prabhupāda: Not visible. Rūpānuga: Oh, it's not manifest Prabhupāda: Yes, not manifest. Rūpānuga: So earth is in a nonmanifest state in the water, and when you analyze water sometimes you can analyze and produce little particles of earth. Is that right? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Everything is there. Not prominent, that's all. Rūpānuga: So the main characteristic then is the water that is prominent. Prabhupāda: Just like the skin, you cannot find water, but there is water. Rūpānuga: So earth is prominent. Prabhupāda: Just like you cut the skin, the blood will come. What is the blood? That is water. Sadāpūta: That is mineral water, it has minerals in it. Prabhupāda: That may be, but it is water. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, the composition of that particular element is predominant. When we say water, say there are some minerals, but the mineral percentage*-wise is very less, but the percentage of water of more. Rūpānuga: There is no pure water. Can there be pure water, completely pure water? If we analyze, we will find pure water? Prabhupāda: Nothing can be pure. Rūpānuga: Not in this material world. They say that they distill it, but just like they say fire is pure, but fire is not pure. There are living entities living in the fire. They have gross, grossly defined... *Prabhupāda: The sterilization has no meaning. The living entity will stay. Otherwise, how it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā: nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ? Find out. Hari-śauri: You were saying yesterday that in all state of matter there is always some living condition to be found. Even in a body that is supposed to be dead, there is life coming from it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually when the body dies, we say that it decomposes, actually that decomposition is done by small microbes. These microbes at this big body... Prabhupāda: They become prominent, that's all. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: Light. Prabhupāda: Light. Fire means heat and light. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is magnetism? Prabhupāda: Magnetism also another action of the fire. We used to do that. Rubbing, rubbing, rubbing. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Electricity. Rūpānuga: Friction. Prabhupāda: And it would, get one fine paper, you'll get. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hairs will stand on end. Prabhupāda: So magnetism means another action of the fire. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: We talk sometimes things very complicated, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but Prabhupāda explains it very simply. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Because I am not scientist. (laughter) Just like I captured immediately, common sense. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In one of the articles in Back to Godhead, I think Dharmādhyakṣa, he uses different words for these five elements. So we are going to use these elements in our book also, so we wonder, he says for fire "radiant energy" instead of fire. I think it may sound little more... *Rūpānuga: They think this is so simplistic, you know, mythological*-type breakdown, oversimplification. So he used different words, fire he said "radiant energy," water he said "liquidity." What did he say for earth? "Solid matter" he said for earth, and air, "gas." And what did he say for ether? "Space." So we thought, we were wondering if these were acceptable terms to use. Prabhupāda: That you can do. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I, actually I discussed this point last time, but still I want to make it clear. The difference between life and matter again... Prabhupāda: Life and matter, is, we already explained very clearly. There is no symptom of matter in life. Everything is detailed. Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi. Negative way. "It is not this." Svarūpa Dāmodara: But to feel it, to see it... Prabhupāda: You cannot bring it to any material platform. Everything is denied. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now to make a simile or comparison, we found from our experience in science that matter itself is rather very simple. It is composed of simple patterns and simple forms and structures. But now when this matter is touched by life or matter in association with life, is actually very complex in terms of molecules. It comes to big molecules, and the molecules not only big. It's very complex, highly complex. Prabhupāda: You can understand, just the one grain of poison, potassium cyanide. You touch on your tongue, immediately whole body becomes poisoned. How the molecules spread immediately? Svarūpa Dāmodara: How does it react? Potassium cyanide? It blocks the oxygen path? That's what science says? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the poison action immediately spreads all over the body. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Otherwise, why is it happening like that? Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also material. Now how much powerful is spirit soul, you can just imagine. If one grain of matter has got so much potency, how much potency has got the spirit. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But then somebody may ask that why that cyanide..., cyanide is just material. But now in the living body the spirit is there, but how is spirit affected by... Prabhupāda: Spirit is unable to live. The condition changes. Poison means the condition changes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So cyanide is more powerful than the spirit. Prabhupāda: No. Powerful, this is different element. Powerful, it is, certainly, because it is moving the whole thing. Powerful, that particular body is destroyed. But the spirit soul, there are so many, otherwise how the germs are coming? It is not powerful. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When cyanide is introduced the body becomes unsuitable. Prabhupāda: For a particular soul. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now my point, coming to this complex form, now matter it is understood easily in terms of science, when matter is associated with life, then comparing this... Prabhupāda: Then the matter works. Otherwise it has no working capacity. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. The material world is working on account of the presence of the spirit soul. Svarūpa Dāmodara: From here, from this experience, we are extending that the spiritual world is, spirit itself is... Prabhupāda: It's different from material world. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Complex. Prabhupāda: It has nothing to do with the material world. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is this valid to conclude that spirit, spiritual world, or life is very complex? Prabhupāda: Not complex, it is simply spirit. In the material world it is complex. In the spiritual world, it is simple. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it all right? Is it understood? Sadāpūta: Spirit means completely different from matter. Rūpānuga: The whole idea is that the matter, where it's not touched by spirit, it's not very complicated. When there's life, then you have such a complication like a body. The human body is very complicated because life is there. Without life... *Prabhupāda: No, just like a machine, it can be complicated. But as soon as you put the plug, gada*-gada-gada-gada comes. But the electricity is not complicated, the machine is complicated. Rūpānuga: So it doesn't work unless there is some.... Prabhupāda: Without electricity it does not work. But the machine is complicated, not the electricity. Rūpānuga: One thing is that the machine, in this example, gets complicated or it becomes... Prabhupāda: Complicated means it is made in different parts with matter, that's all. But it cannot work without the electric power. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the conclusion is that matter, when touched by life or spirit, actually it becomes complicated. Prabhupāda: Not complicated, it is already complicated. It works. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, matter itself is not complicated. Matter itself is not complicated. Prabhupāda: Yes, complicated. When they are combined together. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even if it is complicated, this matter itself touched by life is more complicated. Prabhupāda: No. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is. Prabhupāda: Just like electricity. Electricity, when it is connected with the machine, it works. The machine is complicated. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But it could be said that the machine is actually independent of the electricity. Prabhupāda: No, how it is independent? Without electricity it has no value. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It has no value, but it's still existing. Prabhupāda: Existing, that is valuable? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But machine is touched by a person. So that makes a... Prabhupāda: No, no. That is an example, that here is electricity, power, and here is machine. The machine is complicated. The electricity is not complicated. Hari-śauri: But if there's no electricity, then there's no need for a complicated machine. Prabhupāda: You can see it is complicated. Even a typewriter machine, it is complicated. Hari-śauri: Then it's only complicated because it needs to be so so that it can take the energy for running it. Prabhupāda: That is another thing, without electric, without energy, it cannot work, but the thing itself is complicated. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can I ask one question? If life is based on the desires of the living entities, and as you were mentioning that the material energy forms so many complex combinations, the material body is so complex, does that mean that the living entity is very much entangled? Prabhupāda: If you analyze your body, so many complications. But without life it is all dead matter. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that is why we are concluding that matter, when it is associated with life, it is very complex. Prabhupāda: No, no. Without matter, it is complex. Rūpānuga: Without life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Without life it's more complex, matter? Prabhupāda: Yes, the same, the matter is the same. Sadāpūta: Same body. Rūpānuga: Well in a sense, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: There is no sense, try to understand. The body is complicated. But in spite of all this, it is useless unless there is life. Rūpānuga: All right, so then in an embryo stage... Prabhupāda: Any stage, it is, the whole thing is complicated. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But you are saying that the soul is actually by nature very simple. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At least compared to the material world. Prabhupāda: Yes. The soul is not complicated. Sadāpūta: I believe what Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu is saying is that matter, each element studied by itself, has a simple structure, but when the body is formed with the soul, then it becomes apparently more complex; the chemical reactions become more complex. Rūpānuga: As a matter of growth even. Because life is present, then this small pea grows. Prabhupāda: That means that soul is not complicated. Rūpānuga: No, not the soul. But that the presence of the soul causes growth. Prabhupāda: Just like the dictaphone. The dictaphone is complicated, but my finger is not complicated. Finger is simple. I simply push, and it works. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So, I'm comparing two matters in two different states. Now matter as such and the matter with life. Now taking that life is simple, now still there is a basic difference between matter not touched by life and this matter touched by life. And matter which is not touched by life is still simpler than this matter which is touched by life. Now taking that life is simple... Prabhupāda: Why you are speaking like that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's what we see in science. Prabhupāda: This machine is the same without electricity or no electric. But with electricity it works, and without electricity it is useless. Hari-śauri: But isn't a complicated body... Prabhupāda: It is complicated already. When it is touched with electric power it works. And when it is not touched with electricity... The electricity is not complicated, this thing itself is complicated. Hari-śauri: But isn't the complexity of the body due to trying to accommodate the desires of the spirit soul? Such a complicated body is there because the spirit soul desires to do something. So the complexity is a product of the desire. Prabhupāda: Just like you want to do something, different machine, but the power is the same. You want to, we use a dictaphone or a typewriter, you want to use a, so many, so many... The complication is of the matter, but the electricity is the same. Either this machine or that machine. Rūpānuga: In mathematics... Prabhupāda: Don't bring mathematics, try to understand. You have got different machine for different purposes. But without electricity they are useless. Hari-śauri: So the cause is very simple, but the effect is complicated. Prabhupāda: Not effect. It has nothing to do. If you want to work for a certain purpose, you require such and such machine. So different purposes, different machines. But the power is the same. It is a simple thing. Why don't you understand? You push the electric power for this heater and same electric power for this cooler. This is the difference of the machine. The power is the same. Either it is acting as cooler or heater. The refrigerator is used, the same electric power. And the heater is used, same electric power. It is a question of difference of the machine. Electricity is the same. The matter is complicated. Spirit is not complicated. Rūpānuga: Just like in a body that is growing and getting bigger, that's because the spirit soul is present, and there's action going on because the spirit soul is there. So in that sense a body may become bigger and more complex because the spirit soul is present in that body. That is what we were trying to say, that this matter can become even more complex, if we can use that word, or variegated, because the presence of the spirit soul is there. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to take help of the spirit soul to work the matter. Otherwise matter is dead. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually matter becomes more complicated when it is in association with life. That is actually what we want to say. Sadāpūta: We were speaking not of the spirit soul, we're saying designed by God. That's the kind of life we were referring to. Hari-śauri: Just like the material energy in its unmanifested state, when it's pradhāna, there's no living entity present. But when the living entity is put into the material energy by God, then the whole complex system of workings in the material world come into being. Rūpānuga: What we're trying to show is that such complex activity cannot go on without the presence of life. And with life there, spirit soul, movements are going to go in this material world. That's our point. Isn't that the point? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. One thing also, in the spiritual world, it is full of variegatedness. Prabhupāda: That is spiritual variety. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Spiritual variety. Prabhupāda: There is no difference. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That doesn't mean that it is complex, Śrīla Prabhupāda, yes? Prabhupāda: No, there is no complexity. Svarūpa Dāmodara: One point, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that matter as it is, it has not even a specific form or pattern as compared with matter associated with life. When matter is associated with life it has specific groups of forms meant for a definite purpose and function. Now this is lacking when matter is left as it is. For example... Prabhupāda: Yes, matter is utilized for the purpose of spirit soul. Otherwise matter has no independent existence. The whole thing is matter, but it is formed according to the desire of the spirit. Hari-śauri: So if matter is inferior to the spirit soul, then isn't it correct to say that the spirit soul is more complex or sophisticated than matter? If matter is inferior? Prabhupāda: Spirit soul is living. Naturally he has got desires. That is not complexity. That is a symptom of life. Rūpānuga: Matter has no desire. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So matter seems, we say, more complex, but still is inferior. Prabhupāda: It is made complex to serve some purpose. Rūpānuga: It keeps the living entity forgetful of Kṛṣṇa. It makes māyā for the living entity; he forgets Kṛṣṇa with all the complexities. Prabhupāda: Physically, everything is being done by heat and light. So fire is heat and light. The fire is not complex, heat and light but with heat and light everything is going on. You have physical subject matter of study, heat and light? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because everything is being conducted by heat and light. Hari-śauri: So the living entity's desire has become very complex due to his association with material nature? Prabhupāda: He does not desire. He desires, and the matter helps. In the material world. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That desire is simple? Prabhupāda: Desire is simple, that is his... Otherwise, without desire, how he is living? You make minus desire, then how it is living? That is only symptom of his living. Rūpānuga: You have said on your original record that the living entity is trying to enjoy material nature but is becoming more and more entangled in her complexities. Prabhupāda: Becoming entangled in the machine. Because he has forgotten his spiritual identity. He thinks "With this machine I can help myself." That is going on. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In a sense, it is also true that in the material world, especially material scientists, they make things more complicated. Prabhupāda: That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The contamination of material desires. But when one develops spiritual desire, then he becomes more simple. *Prabhupāda: Karma*-bandha. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, yajñārthāt karmaṇaḥ anyatra karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9], to become entangled. *Rūpānuga: So for a karmī, if you ask what is the purpose of life it is a very complicated question. For a devotee, it is a very simple question with a simple answer. It is very complicated, they will answer, "Oh, this is very difficult, we cannot discuss this in this class, this is too complex." That is the answer we got all our lives until we came to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Then you answered very simply*-Kṛṣṇa. (devotee offer obeisances, door opens) Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you for explaining these... (inaudible) (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C. Prabhupāda: ...and it is a fact, he did not fix it. I wanted both of you to take various detailed photographs of that Capitol. Yadubara: The Capitol Building. For what purpose, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: We shall have picture, planetarium in Māyāpura. (aside:) That's better. [break] ...spiritual world, material world, and so on, so on. Planetary..., succession of the planetary systems, everything. A building like that. Yadubara: That would be a separate building from the temple? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are acquiring 350 acres of land for life for constructing a small township... Yadubara: I think we... Prabhupāda: ...to attract people from all the world to see the planetarium. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is this near the temple? Prabhupāda: Yes. Planetarium name, actually it will be temple. But all round, things will be... Anyway. Yadubara: I know before the idea was to have it inside the main temple. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yadubara: As you walked up the outside of the, or the inside of the main temple, inside that dome, they would have it on the walls. But that would... That original plan was to have it inside the main temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. You take all details, inside, outside. That will be nice. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Can you take inside? Is it allowed? Yadubara: Yes, I think so. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... (japa) And you prove that sun planet is first. It is stated in the Bible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I was going to inquire about that. Prabhupāda: Hm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The order, Sunday, Monday, whether it has to do anything with the distance. Prabhupāda: Distance, whatever it may be. But the sun is first, then moon, then Mars, then Jupiter, then like that. One after another. Otherwise, why Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, like that? Yadubara: That means the distance, then, from the earth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: Sun is first. *Prabhupāda: According to Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, the moon is situated 1,600,000 miles away up to the sun. Upper. So according to their calculation, 93,000,000 miles, sun is situated from the earth. And if the moon is plus 1,600,000 then it becomes 15,000,000 miles. So 15,000,000 miles it takes about... *Hari-śauri: Ninety*-five million. Prabhupāda: Ah? *Hari-śauri: Ninety*-five million. Prabhupāda: : Yes. That. Ninety five millions. It takes at least seven... Hari-śauri: Seven months. Prabhupāda: Seven months, to the speed they are going, 18,000 miles per hour. So how they have gone in four days? Yadubara: According to... Prabhupāda: They have brought some sand. Such a brilliant planet which is illuminating the whole universe and they brought sand. All bluff. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They've studied this very carefully. Prabhupāda: All bluff. Yadubara: According to the *Bhāgavatam*, the sun is also 93,000,000 miles away from the earth? Prabhupāda: That is we shall see later on. It is about. The whole diameter is 4 billions. And sun is situated almost in the middle. It is my firm conviction that they did not go to the moon. Neither they'll be able to go to the Mars as they have planned it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But their scientists would be mad... Prabhupāda: They are mad already, they're talking all nonsense. Already they're mad. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're studying all the rocks from the moon. Prabhupāda: Rascals. What they will get? They studied the rock. And they have found one crack in the whole moon planet, and there's no living being? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually the rocks are being distributed all over the world. Prabhupāda: Ah? Svarūpa Dāmodara: For analysis. Little portion of the rock that they have brought from different stratas(?), they have distributed all over the world. And the report is coming that a portion of the elements (indistinct), so from there they calculate how old the moon is. It's about the same age as the earth, about 4.5 million years. Prabhupāda: They say similar rocks are available here. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then why they bother about bringing rock from there? Svarūpa Dāmodara: To investigate more. Prabhupāda: What is investigation? Simply bluff. Hari-śauri: Similar rocks are available here, because the same rock was taken from here. Prabhupāda: If the rock is the same, so why not living beings there? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They claim there is no atmosphere. Prabhupāda: No, if the atmosphere is different, the rock must be different. The sun must be different. The atmosphere is different, but the rock sand is the same? They have to believe that? Everything should be different. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some of the rocks can be similar. Prabhupāda: So similar, then atmosphere cannot be dissimilar. It is common sense. And this is also bogus, that such a brilliant illuminating planet, it is full of rocks and sand. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The moon? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is so brilliant that it is illuminating the whole universe. Devotee: They say the moon is a reflection. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Why reflection not come in our Sahara desert? Why you don't see such reflection in the Sahara desert so that the whole world may be illuminated? Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is also going to be very critical. Prabhupāda: Which one? Svarūpa Dāmodara: This moon is farther away than the sun. That brings a whole new concept that poses some problem. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: In speaking (at) colleges and universities. The other day when you spoke there, we were not speaking about astronomy, you were speaking of the origin of life, and these people, outsiders, they already had the concept to raise up that question. So without any connection they brought up. So the question was, "Whatever you present is very nice, fine, but what about the moon? Do you believe that the moon is farther away than the sun?" Prabhupāda: But they have already...? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, they already studied, they are ready to ask those things, and they say, "Just give me an answer, yes or no." Prabhupāda: They asked you? They asked you? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what did you answer? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We said yes, but our explanation was much (indistinct) in the sense that we said you have to study this more carefully, but we tried to remark the concept that now we are conditioned to believe certain things. Prabhupāda: Now, how they heard that we are believing in this way? Svarūpa Dāmodara: From *Bhāgavatam*. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: From Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. And sometimes devotees go around the colleges and sometimes they say, "What you are doing is all wrong, the moon is far away." So I think this is spread all over. Prabhupāda: But that is a fact. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we had one explanation saying that now, the way we percept knowledge, though we understand things, there is also a conditioning behind it. So actually this is a fact, but in Mathematics, if we change the axiom, then we have a whole new understanding, it's almost completely upside down, but still we can interpret the result. It is just like a simple jumble(?), while Nils Bohr, studying the structure of the atom. Now he had a mathematical equation to fit the phenomena of this atom, and actually you can perfectly describe this phenomena by this equation, but, now, at morning times, this quantum mechanics, it turns out whatever he did was completely wrong, but it can be described completely, perfectly well as his model, as is our present understanding. But now his theories (indistinct), he could explain things on his own, but still it's completely wrong. So similarly... Prabhupāda: They are right. They may present the wrong thing, but still they are right. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is their proposition? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is possible, but that's why we're claiming that. They agree that because not only there is several facts in science, that one should be (indistinct) this is true, then suddenly by some new discoveries came out all wrong. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we are discussing about our limitations of our so*-called knowledge-finding technique. So we said, "One has to be a little open-minded and discuss these things..." Prabhupāda: What does they say about that disi, astralogic kalokyam (Hindi) ? Svarūpa Dāmodara: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: And in this connection we actually wanted to also study Bhaktisiddhānta Prabhupāda's... *Prabhupāda: Sūrya*-siddhānta. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Yes. But where is that book? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Pradyumna told me that it's available in Bengali, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: If it is available, get it. (indistinct) He was one of the authorities about sun movements. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I heard that it will be very... *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) He got this Sūrya*-siddhānta, Siddhānta Sarasvatī. He was very expert astrologer. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we were thinking that there must be some more information there. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) There are (in) Calcutta many... Some of them still, living or dead I do not know. But in India, in Benares you'll find many astrologers. You said in your book that the sun is the nearest planet? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I didn't say that. We actually took the concept of the... I wasn't talking much there, saying that there is one star, the sun is the nearest star. Prabhupāda: Nearest star. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that means near star, nearest, which relationship, with the earth? Svarūpa Dāmodara: With the other stars. Prabhupāda: Ah? Svarūpa Dāmodara: With the other stars. Prabhupāda: Other stars? Nearest means? Svarūpa Dāmodara: To the earth. Prabhupāda: To the earth. So they are... We are speaking the same thing. The sun is the nearest, then moon. Hari-śauri: But they don't care if the moon is a star. *Prabhupāda: No, moon star is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁ śaśī. It is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Moon is one of the stars, but brilliant star. Yadubara: How many brilliant stars are there in this Universe? *Prabhupāda: Many. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad*-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam [Bs. 5.40]. Aśeṣa. We cannot count. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: The description is also that there is only one star in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. The description is that there is only one star in this universe. One star. Prabhupāda: One star? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, only one star. Devotee: One sun. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I'm sorry, one sun. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: One sun in this universe. Prabhupāda: This is one universe. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So actually what they call solar system, science doesn't call it one universe. The concept of universe is very vast. Prabhupāda: That is not vast. Our concept... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, our conception is solar system, actually. The solar system is one universe. Prabhupāda: Solar? There is no solar system. The ninth, I mean planets. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Solar system, what they mean, the science, the sun, and these planets that we know, consists of, comprises our Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam universe, concept of the universe. Prabhupāda: Yes, the (indistinct) is a big affair, the sun is one of the important planets. Not only the sun, moon, Mars, Jupiter, everyone. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually as astronomy and (indistinct) are especially astronomy is one of the most unscientific branch of study, knowledge is concerned. It's very, very little known. The way that... The techniques that they use, are very difficult to rely on. Prabhupāda: So their Astronomical calculation, the sun is fixed up, that is also wrong. The sun is not fixed up. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, Your Divine Grace, you wrote me a letter saying about the universe is just like an inverted tree. *Prabhupāda: Yes, ūrdhva*-mūlam adhah-śākham [Bg. 15.1], Bhagavad-gītā. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the tree, and the leaves, and the fruits and flowers are the planets. *Prabhupāda: Ūrdhva*-mūlam, Gītā says, ūrdhva-mūlam adhah-śākham. The pole-star in the... And we see at night everything is moving. As a bunch it is moving. Hari-śauri: Does that means all the planets are fixed in relationship to each other as well? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just like a tree. Tree is fixed up, as a whole tree is moving. Hari-śauri: Because we see practically that the moon also moves, across the sky. Just like the sun does. So the sun has an orbit? Prabhupāda: Sun is also... Yes. Hari-śauri: And the moon has an orbit also? *Prabhupāda: In the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is said, yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ. Unlimited temperature. Everything is there. Hari-śauri: Does the moon have an orbit also then? Prabhupāda: Yes, every (indistinct). It is described as a chariot moving. Something, challenge must be given. Hari-śauri: I think that when we try to explain to them that the sun is drawn by a chariot, then... (laughs) Prabhupāda: The (indistinct) sun is God. He's one of the gods. Hari-śauri: Hm. Yadubara: Won't they just take this... *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) He's a person, sun*-god. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1], a person. That is his planet. He is the predominating Deity. And similarly moon. And the kṣatriyas, they are coming from these two planets. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, vivasvān manave prāha manur ikṣvākave... Ikṣvāku is the sūrya-vaṁśa, the kṣatriya family coming from the sun. Yadubara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we're taking this from the *Bhāgavatam*. Won't they just think that this is myth? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) is myth? Who believes you? If you don't believe me, I don't believe you. Finished. Yadubara: So we should present our side. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our business. If you don't believe me I don't believe you. Finished business. You have got your authority, I've got my authority. Why shall I...? Hari-śauri: Actually we have authority and they have no authority. Prabhupāda: What is your age? You are all scientists within 200 years. And our Bhāgavata is written 5,000 years ago. Why shall I accept yours? Yadubara: So no matter what they say we should present it at least. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have become all scientists, and everything within 200 years. What is the age of your European, Western civilization? It cannot go more than 3,000 years? Our Bhāgavata is written 5,000 years ago. And before that, Śukadeva Gosvāmī says, "I have heard like this." That's all. Millions and millions (of years ago)... Devotee (1): You were saying that everything they say is wrong, and that is our position. We take that position, that everything they say is wrong. Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are imperfect, they are speculating. Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: What is the value of your speculation? If you are on the wrong platform, then what is the value of your speculation? You have got imperfect senses, you cheat, with the microscope or binocular, but it is manufactured by you. How it is perfect? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is one of our reasonings, that the senses... Prabhupāda: Yes. You are born imperfect, and you are manufacturing some measuring... So that is also imperfect. And you are depending by seeing through the binocular. How it is perfect? Devotee (1): They've convinced us that these machines are accurate. Prabhupāda: How it is accurate? It is manufactured by you. You are a fool. Devotee (1): But some things they say, like the rays... Prabhupāda: They say, they may say, but first of all, what is the position of the conditioned soul? Four defects. You must commit mistakes, you must be illusioned, his senses are imperfect, and he's a cheater. These are the four defects of conditioned souls. So how the conditioned soul can give perfect knowledge? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is our conclusion. Prabhupāda: Yes. The position of conditioned soul is that he must commit mistake, and he's illusioned, and his senses are imperfect, and he wants to cheat. Everyone speaks something. You know that he has no perfect knowledge in the subject matter, still he wants to speak something. That means he wants to cheat. This is going on. And then after some years somebody says, "No, it was not correct." That means he cheated. The former scientists or philosophers cheated. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Why ask? Prabhupāda: Yes. He has no perfect knowledge and he proposed something and now it is incorrect. And the man who is correcting, he's also a cheater. This is going on, this is their paramparā system. One cheater, another cheater, another cheater. So why shall I believe the cheaters? Devotee (1): They've convinced us by their machines. Prabhupāda: That machine means, their machine. Again you are bringing the same argument. What is value of machine? The machine is made by a cheater. Imperfect senses, how it is perfect? Devotee (1): But some machines work, though, like the radio, the TV... Prabhupāda: Work to some extent, that much credit you can take. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, to some extent that is also you're saying... Prabhupāda: To some extent is, everyone accepts. Hari-śauri: Just amplifies the cheating. Prabhupāda: Yes. To some extent they are correct, that's all. So far they say, "I can see 2 feet or 10 feet." That's all. So how can I say I can see the whole sky? That is cheating. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually that is also the fundamental mistake. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In our attempt to gain knowledge, that we try to expand our own limited experience to something which is beyond my... Prabhupāda: Beyond my... Yadubara: Doctor Frog. Prabhupāda: Doctor Frog, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So sometimes... Prabhupāda: Imagining. "It may be like this. It may be like that." That is not knowledge. Doctor Frog is thinking of Atlantic ocean. He is within three feet of water. And how he can think of Atlantic Ocean? He may think, "It may be four feet, or five feet, or ten feet," and as soon as says 20 feet, he bursts. He's finished. Now you are finished. Devotee (2): But they are so many... [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that's a good point. Devotee (2): But they cheated when they said they went to the moon. Prabhupāda: Yes, they're cheaters, those who have got imperfect senses, they're all cheaters. If they say something, "Definitely this is like this," that is cheating. Devotee (2): But how can so many cheat? Prabhupāda: So many cheat? Devotee (2): Together. Together they all cheat, they all say they went to the moon. One thousand scientists, all together in one room? They all say, "We agree, this, they went to the moon, here's the..." Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that if we can prove that the moon is beyond sun, then all these cheaters will be (indistinct), by one stroke. Devotee (2): It's a great cheating effort, then. Must be a very great effort that they cheated everybody like this. Because so many scientists were fooled. Prabhupāda: Scientists... Devotee (2): They... Prabhupāda: So many are... Because they're speculating. No valid knowledge. Viśākhā: It seems that since they have imperfect senses, they're unable to perceive... *Prabhupāda: It is impossible to say anything scientifically. So*-called scientifically. Viśākhā: So they cannot perceive that there is somebody with perfect senses. Prabhupāda: Eh? Viśākhā: They deny that there is someone with perfect senses. Prabhupāda: So they may, but we have got. Our knowledge is paramparā. That Kṛṣṇa says, whatever He says is all right. Kṛṣṇa is not common man, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. He's not man at all He's Supreme Personality of Godhead. Abhijñaḥ. Experience in everything. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We agree that we have more limited senses... Prabhupāda: He's a scientist, he knows. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Scientists also, when we talk together... Prabhupāda: They know that they're talking nonsense, but they still want to cheat, to get their salary, that's all. This is the position. Hari-śauri: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Because they know, we can cheat these rascals, government. They are all rascals, we can simply talk in some bombastic words (speaks gibberish). They'll believe it. This is going on. All imperfect knowledge. Hari-śauri: If they don't produce some new theory, or some new discovery... Prabhupāda: That means they prove their own foolishness. Why do you produce new theory? If there is perfect knowledge? That proves their foolishness. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's also called intellectual exercise. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to... Hari-śauri: Mental speculation. Prabhupāda: That's all. Manorathena. Asati dhāvato bahiḥ. Mental speculation. Yadubara: It's all based on that. Because if you don't speculate mentally, you don't get a degree. Prabhupāda: That's another thing. A fool is accepted by another fool. That is another thing. They're getting Nobel Prize and so on and so on. That is different thing. Fool's paradise. All of them are fools. And they have created their own paradise. Do you know that story? That one was drinking, so his friend said, "Oh, you are drinking, you'll go to hell." "No, why? My father drinks." "Well, he'll also go to hell." "Oh, by brother drinks." "So he'll also go to hell." "My brother..." In this way, the whole list was (indistinct). Then he said, everyone will go to hell. Then where is hell? It is paradise! If father is going, then mother is going, then I am going, then brother is going, then where is hell?" It is like that. They're all fools, then where is fool? Everyone is intelligent. That is (indistinct). There's no question of fool. If everyone, all of us are fool, then where is the question of intelligent? "Hey, we are intelligent." (indistinct) This is their conclusion. We can give credit to something, just like I can see up to this wall. But if I say, "Now I am seeing beyond this world, everything, the forest and everything, I know everything." That is going on. Cheating. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's... Goes a little too far. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Beyond one's limit. Prabhupāda: Go, you have got... You have seen... Go to all the planets. Where can you go? Why you make attempt for sending... (indistinct). At night we see millions of planet. Go there. This is material, there is no question of spiritual world. Go there. If you've got any machine. Why you attempt? Go, as you go from here to London, go there. We can see there is... Why there is attempt? That means your instrument is also insufficient. And you are very proud of your having instrument. Where is that instrument, go with that instrument. Imperfect. Everything is imperfect. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Two problems in man's history is this: one is this astronomical problem and the second is the origin of life. Prabhupāda: Just see. And we have to... Touching (?) these three worlds. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So my feeling is that in about fifty years something is going to be settled. Prabhupāda: (laughs) It's already settled. They should accept the (indistinct). It's already settled. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Especially about this origin of life business. Prabhupāda: That is also settled. Everything is settled. But these rascals must admit. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's settled in the sense that even the scientist will come around that, "Oh, yes, what we taught was wrong." Prabhupāda: Yes. That we want. They have become unnecessary authorities and misleading people. That we want to expose. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in a sense it is good that they do research. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We are giving them knowledge. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: If they are after knowledge, they should accept. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is one, some sort of a mental satisfaction. When we work something we thought that by doing this I'll be able to come to a conclusion. But by the same research, by the same result, I found that what I thought was wrong, so from that, that satisfaction is there, so that must be true. Something like that. Prabhupāda: Here is one, that Sukla, he is also favorable. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, he's a very nice man. I never saw any Indian like that. Devotee (2): He's favorable, but he won't come to the temple. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. But he has got sympathy. Devotee (2): Yes, he's very nice, sympathetic. But he didn't come to help us at all. And we approached him for life member, he said he would, but then he never did. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Slow... He'll come around. Prabhupāda: The another medical man, he's also working? Devotee (2): Medical man, he's very favorable. He comes every day to the temple. Prabhupāda: So he's a devotee. Devotee (2): He's moving in. He's going to take up a house here. He's very convinced. Prabhupāda: He wants to give us some land? Devotee (2): Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Fifty acres. Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: In India we have been offered so many land. But we have no men (indistinct). Svarūpa Dāmodara: I also got a letter from Manipur, that Life Member, Kulavida Singh, he was concerned that the young people are now giving up the religious thought, so he wanted to establish some sort of school... Prabhupāda: That (indistinct) is made by Vivekananda, yato mata tato patha, (?) very bad. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. So as soon as... They wanted to start an ISKCON branch, and he was a... Prabhupāda: I think it will not be difficult. Manipur is... Svarūpa Dāmodara: It will be very easy, because... Prabhupāda: ...Vaiṣṇava. So if they understand, that will be very nice. Svarūpa Dāmodara: All the, even the government participates so they wrote me a letter saying that they can give us nice land, plot, and... Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Now that Govindajī's temple? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Govindajī's temple is taken over by the government, so I talked to, I wrote a letter... Prabhupāda: Government, they cannot manage. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are not managing properly. Prabhupāda: They cannot. As soon as anything goes to state especially in India, goes to the government track(?), it is spoiled. Government means all thieves and rogues. How they'll manage? They'll simply swallow whatever they get. Government means... They cannot manage, they are not devotees. It should be in the hands of the devotees. So (indistinct), the paid man, they want some money, that's all. How they can manage temple? It is impossible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It becomes a political problem. Prabhupāda: That's all. Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It becomes involved in politics. So that... Nothing to do with the worship. Prabhupāda: The government should give to the hands of the devotee, we are recognized devotees, ISKCON. If they want, really management. We are managing, so many centers, on account of devotees. It is not possible to manage all these things by paid men. It is not possible. Devotee (2): No. Prabhupāda: They'll never... They'll not... This movement can be pushed on vigorously so long we are devotees, otherwise it will be finished. It cannot be conducted by any outsiders. No. Only the devotees. That is the secret. Devotee (2): You cannot pay a devotee. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): You cannot buy a devotee. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Devotee (2): You can buy someone to sweep the floor, but you cannot buy a preacher. Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. So so long we remain devotees, our movement will go, without any check. Devotee (2): Devotees should take over the world. Prabhupāda: Yeah, that is... That is good for the world. Devotee (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: If devotees take up the whole world for management, then everyone will be happy. It is no doubt it. Kṛṣṇa wants that. He wanted the Pāṇḍavas should be in charge of the government. Therefore He took part in the fighting. "Yes, you should be the... All the Kauravas should be killed, and Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira installed." That is the dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. He wants everything goes very smoothly and people become God conscious. So their life be successful. That is Kṛṣṇa's plan. That, "These rascal misleading and therefore... the (indistinct) the human life has been spoiled." Therefore I was talking about the "What is the meaning of the independence, (indistinct)?" ? The life is spoiled. And they will spoil their life and become next life a dog, and this big, big building, with stair, that's all. What the big buildings will do benefit to these people who is going to be a dog next life? Taking as a theory, that those who have constructed this big, big building and next life they're going to be a dog. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they don't know that next life they're going to be a dog. Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. They do not know it. Therefore māyā. It is same thing (indistinct). The life is meant for spiritual realization. They are not (indistinct) chance. They're going to become dog, and they think that, "Now we have got this big building, that is success." Svarūpa Dāmodara: That awakening of their understanding is necessary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Otherwise, if they know that it's going to be like that then they won't do that. Prabhupāda: Therefore they dismiss, "No, we don't believe in the next life." And they're so degraded even for argument's sake, "What is the wrong if I become dog?" They say, university students. Devotee (2): They say that, yes. Prabhupāda: "What is the wrong if I become a dog?" The same thing. Hell. Everyone is going to hell. So what is wrong? The same philosophy, if father is going, mother is going, brother is going, I am going, then where is hell?" That's all. We shall go there all together. Devotee (2): Will this movement take over the world, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: At least you keep one idea. There is possibility. Devotee (2): I think it will be very big. Prabhupāda: That is possible. If we become serious and sincere, then it will go on, undoubtedly. Devotee (2): See how big it grew just in ten years. Today is our anniversary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Our ten year anniversary today. So in ten years we have gotten so big, by geometric progression in 20 years how big will we be? Thousands and thousands of people, chanting and dancing. Prabhupāda: And there is chance. Simply by chanting you can attract so many people. Devotee (2): Yes, I think so. They're coming already. You chanted and so many people came. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Already in the, your English vocabulary, in America, actually they use many Sanskrit vocabularies now. Prabhupāda: What is that? (laughs) Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they believe that (indistinct) is the chairman of religion at Emery University, he told me that in about thirty years or so this, our movement... Prabhupāda: They're giving back toward meaning. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You can learn so many... Sanskrit... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. Our students to pick up some Sanskrit words. Ātmā, jīva, like that. He was telling me that in about thirty or forty years our ISKCON, our movement will have a great impact in the social life there. *Prabhupāda: We are giving all, all round enlightenment. Bhagavad*-gītā is full of information from all standpoint. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. We are now in such a downtrodden position, the whole human... He must accept. There is... The civilization is doomed. (pause) What do they explain about so many varieties of life? How do they come? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They call by mutation. It's called mutation. Prabhupāda: What is that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mutation is... They say DNA molecule is the... called master molecule. But somehow during the course of... Prabhupāda: Somehow. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somehow. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Then they're finished. As soon as they "Somehow," it is not science. It is rascaldom. Then it is useless. "Somehow," "Maybe," "Perhaps." (indistinct). Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somehow there is a mistake in the... (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughs) Everything is mistake. Hari-śauri: Who is making the mistake? Prabhupāda: We have to hear this thing: "Somehow they have made a mistake." Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually it is very controversial. This... I read an article from the university of Berkeley, Berkeley and some other western campuses, saying that now the theory of this mutation by which the different species are formed is very controversial at this time. Because of the knowledge in our molecular biology, now what they have thought that this mutation is the cause of this variegatedness is a misnomer, being complete mistaken. Prabhupāda: All mistaken. Where is the difference, then how do you experiment in the biological class by dissecting animal body? What is the difference in the composition of social construction, I er, bodily construction. You have to suffer. That's why I have said, there must be (indistinct). The same principle is there. Otherwise how the mosquito fly like this and... Svarūpa Dāmodara: They can make a mosquito but they... Prabhupāda: No, they cannot make mosquito. They can make 747. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They can make a sample like mosquito. Prabhupāda: No... They cannot, they cannot. That is my challenge. That first of all you bring life from the egg. You prepare a egg composition, and put it in the incubator and let some living entity come out. So can they do it? So why they will speak all nonsense? Yadubara: They admit they can't do it. Prabhupāda: Then they are rascal. What they cannot do, they're speaking lots of and getting Nobel prize. Yadubara: They say how in the future they can. Prabhupāda: How cheating. Devotee (2): You said the chicken can do it. Prabhupāda: Yeah. Devotee (2): But they cannot. Prabhupāda: No. Devotee (2): Therefore a chicken, he is greater than you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Chicken can do. What do you think? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. The very best way to... I want to use that as an example next time when we preach. Prabhupāda: But a chicken is better than you. Don't talk nonsense. (laughter) Chicken is already doing in his way. You'll see he's laying down, chemical egg, and fermenting, and within week come. So he's better than you. Yadubara: They'll say that we can also do that, we can also produce child. Prabhupāda: Hm? You can, but you, rascal, you've never done it, simply speak. Yadubara: No, I mean, they can produce children also by sex life. Prabhupāda: But that is not your laboratory children. That is God's children. That is another thing. That is not your laboratory children. You want to produce children in laboratory? Then do that. That is our challenge. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But this, one of our arguments now, we argue that these molecules that (indistinct) for example DNA, even if they make it, still it just... It means it's a molecule. It is not going to function normally, as we find in a living cell, in a living body. So this has nothing to do with the life processes. The molecules they make, they may do so many reactions, but still there is a fundamental difference in the living body and this simple, that... To determine that it's never possible to create life in the test tube. The have timetables, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in about fifty years, that's about the turn of the century, that about 2001 we are going to make such and such bodies and... Prabhupāda: All imagination. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So many strange things. They even said it that this, we have these five fingers, they said this isn't enough, so we must make six, so the six... Prabhupāda: Yes, in this way they're cheating. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Our brain is a little too small, so we want to do it a little bigger, so that we can think more and utilize more ideas. Prabhupāda: Where is brain? There is no question. That story, that potter? Hari-śauri: Oh, the one that was dreaming? Prabhupāda: Yeah. You know the potter's story? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Hari-śauri: There was a potter and he had one or two pots, and he started to think, he was dreaming, "Oh, now I've got one or two pots. When I sell these pots then I'll make so much money. Then I'll make some more pots, then I'll make more money, like this. Then when I got some, enough money I'll get a wife, and I'll have a family, like this, and I'll have a nice house." In this way he was carried away with his dreaming and he was thinking, "If my wife doesn't do what I say, I'll kick her like this." And he kicked out, smashed all his pots. (laughter) Prabhupāda: All the two, three pots he had were broken. Then he "Ohhh." Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is called to make castles in the air? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually it is like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles) Viśākhā: We want to try make a film to prove this point that life comes from life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can do that with film? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can show it to colleges. Yadubara: We wanted to work with Svarūpa Dāmodara and the other scientists... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yadubara: ...in collaboration. Prabhupāda: Do it, do it. Yadubara: Because their book, subject matter of the book is directly along those lines. Prabhupāda: They say from chemicals, but if you prove that chemicals also come from life... Devotee: Yeah. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They got some experiments that we want to do, on purely scientific level... Prabhupāda: You can do it, it is a fact. You can do it, you'll be successful. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, there are some experiments that we can do. They have been doing some experiments last three or four months to supplement... Prabhupāda: So you say, in the history these are two problems... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh yeah, these are the greatest... Prabhupāda: So we have trust these two points. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Once these two points are solved, then the knowledge will be very clear. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everything will be very harmonious and come to a common conclusion. But so long as... Prabhupāda: We are giving the solution, let them take it. This is our greatest contribution. Viśākhā: The problem is they believe what they see. Prabhupāda: Believe or not believe, we shall have to give the people by books, by knowledge, by film. *Hari-śauri: But if somehow or other that sun*-moon thing can be proved, then they'll all be finished, completely. Prabhupāda: It will not be finished because some rascals, fools will remain to support it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's always like that, just like in *Mahābhārata*... Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: there was two, demons and the... Prabhupāda: So this is his world of duality. You cannot have all support on your side. It isn't... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, we always expect opposition. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is... Svarūpa Dāmodara: We must be ready for... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) just like we're opposing their theory. They are not absolute. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Science, science also, Prabhupāda, changing the subject level, science also comes to the conclusion that the stars and this universe have..., they die out and then they produce new ones, just like life cycle of the living body. So... *Prabhupāda: Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in fact, one of the remarks of a scientist, Nobel laureate actually, in Harvard, Mādhava told me he was in American Association for the Advancement of Science. This professor is a professor in biology in Harvard, Boston. His answer was that, "In order to have man in this planet, the stars have to die." That means we come from the stars. The particles, from the stars, then the main involved from those molecules, that star, that come from the stars. *Prabhupāda: You do something. I can give you the idea. But it is fact. What ideas I am giving, that's a fact. Now it is up to you to put it (into) so*-called scientifics. He'll... In future millions of years after it will create one living entity in the laboratory, so he's taking all the credit, and God is creating millions and millions already, He has no credit. You'll see their intelligence. What the people will gain even if you manufacture one life in the laboratory? So what is the gain? Why you are spending so much money? Yadubara: They want to become God. Prabhupāda: God becoming is far away. First of all, make some living entity. But even if you do it, then what is your credit? Why you want to take so much great credit? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's called false prestige. *Prabhupāda: Just see, how nonsense they are, misleading people, making them atheist, Godless. Great dangerous, the so*-called scientists. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that mentality has to be changed. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if even two, three, points we can prove that they're all rascals, then they will change. Simply cheating people and take high salary. This is common sense. Suppose in the laboratory you make one living being. So what is credit to them? The living entities are coming, many millions... Devotee: (2): You gave the story about the dog... Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): ...barking? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): And the man he is imitating the dog barking... Prabhupāda: And he'll sell ticket. That "I shall bark like the dog." And people will come, "Oh, let us see." This is going on. What is the credit to bark like a dog? There are so many dogs barking, but people are so fool they'll go and purchase the ticket, "How this man barks like a dog." This is cheating. That is the qualification of conditioned soul, he can very scientifically cheat. This is cheating, "I can bark like dog." *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Aren't we going a little too far. The scientist says*-personally I also feel that they are not all that bad... Prabhupāda: No, no. They're badly trained up. Not all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are many good things that they have done. Prabhupāda: That we already admitted. That I can see ten feet, let me credit, take credit for that. But why shall I say, "I can see the whole universe." What is this nonsense? Speak the truth. "Now we have manufactured machine, and this, I have calculation that..." All talking nonsense. I say it is not possible for you to see beyond ten feet. Why you are claiming that you can see the whole sky? That is our protest. You can see ten feet, take that credit, that much. If somebody manufactures the electric lamp, all right. Take this. But if he says, "I can manufacture the sun." Then he is to be beaten with shoes. Talking nonsense. You take this credit, that you have manufactured light in electric bulb, that's all right. But why you claim that, "I can manufacture the sun"? That is their claim, defying God. Because we are explaining God consciousness, therefore we have protest. Otherwise let them move(?), all nonsense (indistinct). But we cannot tolerate when they challenge God. We must (indistinct). *Svarūpa Dāmodara: This year also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, just like their 200 year anniversary, similarly in American Chemical Society this is 100th year celebration. There was a big meeting in New York just few months ago, international meeting, celebrating the 100th year of the American Chemical Society. So I was planning to go there but I didn't go. But they have a moving model of what science has achieved in the last 200 years. And also predictions for what will happen in the future. And one of the Nobel laureates-Fowling is his name, from California*-he predicted that, specifically in the chemical community, people take him as some sort of, their leader, so whatever he says, they believe that it's going to happen. So he believes that in the next coming 100 years there will be more knowledge on this life matter, and then people will be happier. Prabhupāda: That is mis... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Selling plastic world. Prabhupāda: Plastic world? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mostly synthetic, in a synthetic... Prabhupāda: Manufacture. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Plastic materials will be predominant, and we will have more frontiers of knowledge especially in the biology, molecular biology. So they are also pessimist that in such and such years we're going to make short of these coal deposits and all these energy supplies, all these different... Prabhupāda: That will be finished? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) will work? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But he is not, he's optimistic. He said they will find new sources on the nuclear energy, solar energy and all these predictions. But the point there is that these people, they believe in what he says, because he has Nobel laureate (indistinct), and he's respected by... He's very old about seventy... Prabhupāda: So what he is proposing? It's nothing new. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's giving some thought, to those people who are worried, "Don't worry about life, it's going to be all nice." And... Prabhupāda: No, we are not worried, and even if we, one is worried, he'll be finished by that time. So all worries will be gone. Moreover, after death there will be no worries. (pause) Prove that everything is being done by God, that we want. Half past five? *Hari-śauri: Almost twenty*-five to. Twenty-seven minutes to... *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-seven minutes? No, no. It is thirty minutes. *Hari-śauri: Twenty*-seven minutes to six. Prabhupāda: Oh. Minutes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is made by science. This watch is a product of science. Prabhupāda: Science means craftsman, that's all. (laughter) Mistri. We say mistri. (laughter) You know, in our Indian language? Mistri? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mystery. Prabhupāda: Mistri. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is that? Prabhupāda: Any craftsman, we say mistri. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: So mistri has no position. Maybe correct. In our Vedic civilization a learned brāhmaṇa is honored, not a mistri. Is it not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: A learned brāhmaṇa, is not expected to manufacture a watch, but he's more honored than one who is actually... This modern age is: if he manufactures watch he is honored. Not the learned brāhmaṇa. That is Kali*-yuga. That is Kali-yuga. They do not know whom to honor. That is the Kali-yuga going on. You kill so many souls, and if you have a great big skyscraper building, then you are successful. And those who constructed the skyscraper, they are going to become dog, never mind, the skyscraper building is there. That's all. That is success. This is modern civilization. After they constructed the skyscraper building all the mistris are going to hell, that doesn't matter. The building is there. Is it not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is civilization. Long ago in 1917 perhaps, in our college, we saw one magazine. Svarūpa Dāmodara: St. Xavier's College? Prabhupāda: No, Scottish. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, Scottish. *Prabhupāda: Scottish Churches College. So one American, Scientific American, we have contribute(?). So there the picture was that one skyscraper building is constructed and so many men are working, carrying the beams and so on. So there was-I remember still*-that all, some material construction, so many living entities they are being sacrificed(?). I do not know how the Scientific American gave this picture, I still remember. Actually that is a fact. This human being would have been released from this materialistic way of life, back to home, back to... No, instead of giving them the chance, they are engaged in constructing huge skyscraper building. They're spoiled. So it is little difficult to understand our philosophy. And Prahlāda Mahārāja said, tat-prayāso na kartavyo yata āyur-vyayaḥ param. Tat-prayāso na kartavyaḥ. This kind of activity should stop. It is simply wasting the valuable life. But they do not know how they're wasting. They're in such an ignorance. They are thinking that these people, crazy people, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, are wasting time, they're thinking like that. They do not know what is the value of life. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's a fact that the material opulence is actually a hindrance. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām, vyavasāyātmikā buddhi... What is that? Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām [Bg. 2.44]. Their life will be spoiled. And when they are tired, give them sex, and wine, and meat, and gambling, they are satisfied. Again as soon as they get little energy, again begin another skyscraper. You got this human life for solving all the problem. He is not given the chance. He's engaged otherwise, his life is spoiled. (end) Prabhupāda: You economically prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is simple and inexpensive life. Devotees: Yes, jaya, mercy. Prabhupāda: Food, diet, living condition, healthy, hygienic, everything. You prove that this is the best way of life. That's a fact. From all sides, prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential for the human society, to make them happy in this and the next life. That is a fact. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda? Today I want to discuss about the manifestation of the matter from pradhāna. Now Lord Kapiladeva describes that pradhāna is the undifferentiated sum total of material elements. *Prabhupāda: Mahat*-tattva? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, pradhāna. Then from pradhāna, by the action of time this mahat*-tattva is generated. Now we were a little confused about that. He said by the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency there is hiraṇmaya, is produced within mahat-tattva, and this hiraṇmaya is self-effulgent. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's effulgent. Prabhupāda: Hiraṇmaya? Hari-śauri: Effulgent. Prabhupāda: Oh, effulgent, yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now our point is whether this hiraṇmaya... In the mahat*-tattva, the relationship between these two and pradhāna, how does that relate each other? It's not very clear in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, you're not very clear, this point. It said from pradhāna, by the impregnation with the Lord's internal potency, the hiraṇmaya is produced. That's actually the beginning of the injection of jīvas within these material modes. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is little complicated. So is it not clear from the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is little difficult to understand the phenomenal descriptions. *Prabhupāda: In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta? Nityānanda-tattva? You can read it, you'll get some clue. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: We also get some clue from First Canto, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, in the puruṣa incarnations, where it explains about tattva. But there is a difference between... Now our understanding is this: pradhāna, both pradhāna and mahat-tattva, they are eternal, though they are material manifestations. Prabhupāda: Everything eternal. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, eternal in the sense that it's different from prakṛti. Now prakṛti is, when it is completely manifested... Prabhupāda: Prakṛti, pradhāna, puruṣa, these things are little complicated. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we wanted to clarify this, because this is the nice thing that we can show that matter comes from life. This is the source. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sa īkṣata, sa asṛjata, by the glance of Mahā*-Viṣṇu... Eko nārāyaṇa āsīt. In the beginning, Nārāyaṇa was there. There was no Lord Śiva, no neither Brahmā. This mantra was there. So originally by the glance... Svarūpa Dāmodara: By the glance of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: We can prove it that how by the sunshine everything is growing. How it is? Your molecule and so on, so on... You can describe. Actually, from the sunshine the trees are growing, leaves are coming. As soon as there is no sunshine, immediately they fall down, the leaves, and the tree becomes without any leaves. How this happens? The same process. The sunshine produces so many things. Similarly, by the glance of the Supreme, the material nature becomes agitated and the three guṇas become manifest. In this way these are described there. The same process. How from the sunshine the leaves are coming out, what are the molecular changes, if you can study the same process. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) ...with this hiraṇmaya, the relationship between mahat*-tattva and the hiraṇmaya is clear, then I think we can have some idea. So we are little confused on this very point. It is also said pradhāna is the twenty-four elements that doesn't contain time. Prabhupāda: Pradhāna is the ingredient. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is the sum total of the unmanifested material elements. Now from pradhāna actually mahat*-tattva is manifested. In mahat-tattva there is a basic difference that there is some, already some manifestations in mahat-tattva. Rūpānuga: Categories. *Prabhupāda: Total material elements, mahat*-tattva. Rūpānuga: Is that differentiated? *Prabhupāda: Mahat*-tattva is differentiated. Rūpānuga: Different categories? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: The time element is there in mahat*-tattva, so it is already twenty-five elements there including time. At this stage also, the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency means that the jīvas are already impregnated here from pradhāna. So here the living entities are in pure goodness. *Prabhupāda: The living entities are always in pure goodness. This material covering is separated. The living entities can be freed from material covering at any moment. Just like water and oil, it is always separated, it does not mix. The Vedic mantra also says asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. Actually, it is not mixed, but it is covered. That covering can be taken away at any moment simply by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. I think in First Canto, that description you try to understand, you'll get. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now in the First Canto in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam also it is not very clear. *Prabhupāda: Then Second Canto, the development of Sṛṣṭi*-tattva, there you'll get. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think there is also reference in the Bhagavad*-gītā, this hiraṇmaya, because sometimes it's also called Brahman. Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti. What? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Brahman. *Prabhupāda: Brahman, yes. He's called Hiraṇya*-garbha, Brahmā. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's also said in this state, pradhāna state, the cause and effect are not clearly manifested. *Prabhupāda: : Caitanya caritāmṛta, did you refer Nityānanda*-tattva? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I'm still... Prabhupāda: Read it, you'll get clue there. Maybe in the Third Chapter. Bring up here. We shall... First part, take it. *Rūpānuga(?): Ādi*-līlā? Prabhupāda: First part, take it. Vṛṣākapi(?): Chapter Three? Prabhupāda: In Muslim country, Christians, or the Americans preaching Hindu religion, it has been taken very seriously in Iran. Three different elements: preaching center is Muhammadan, and the preacher is American, and the cult Hindu. (laughs) So the princess of Iran and her husband, they are, up to date, they are very much appreciating. The daughter of Shah. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, you read the contents. Rūpānuga: Or the index maybe. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Chapter Three. "In this chapter the author has fully discussed the reason for the descent of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, after displaying His pastimes as Lord Kṛṣṇa, thought it wise to make His advent in the form of a devotee to explain personally the transcendental mellow reciprocations of service and love between Himself and His servants, friends, parents and fiancees. According to the Vedic literature, the foremost occupational duty for humanity in this age of Kali is nāma*-saṅkīrtana, or congregational chanting of the holy name of the Lord. The incarnation for this age especially preaches this process, but only Kṛṣṇa Himself can explain the confidential loving service performed in the four principal varieties of loving affairs between the Supreme Lord and His devotees. Lord Kṛṣṇa therefore personally appeared, with His plenary portions, as Lord Caitanya. As stated in this chapter, only for that purpose did Lord Kṛṣṇa appear personally in Navadvīpa in the form of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja has herein presented much authentic evidence from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and other scriptures to substantiate the identity of..." *Prabhupāda: You are reading Caitanya Mahāprabhu. About Nityānanda, see the contents? No, in the beginning. Chapter where is contents. Nityānanda*-tattva. *Rūpānuga: "The Glories of Lord Nityānanda*-Balarāma." Prabhupāda: Fifth Chapter? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: "This chapter is chiefly devoted to describing the essential nature and glories of Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the absolute Personality of Godhead, and His first expansion in a form for pastimes is Śrī Balarāma. Beyond the limitation of this material world is the spiritual sky, paravyoma, which has many spiritual planets, the supreme of which is called Kṛṣṇaloka. Kṛṣṇaloka, the abode of Kṛṣṇa, has three divisions, which are known as Dvārakā, Mathurā and Gokula. In that abode the Personality of Godhead expands Himself into four plenary portions*-Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma, Pradyumna (the transcendental Cupid) and Aniruddha. They are known as the original quadruple forms. In Kṛṣṇaloka is a transcendental place known as Śvetadvīpa, or Vṛndāvana. Below Kṛṣṇaloka, in the spiritual sky, are the Vaikuṇṭha planets. On each Vaikuṇṭha planet a four-handed Nārāyaṇa, expanded from the first quadruple manifestation, is present. The Personality of Godhead known as Śrī Balarāma in Kṛṣṇaloka is the original Saṅkarṣaṇa (attracting Deity), and from this Saṅkarṣaṇa expands another Saṅkarṣaṇa, called Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa, who resides in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. By His internal potency, Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa maintains the transcendental existence of all the planets in the spiritual sky, where all the living beings are eternally liberated souls. The influence of the material energy is conspicuous there by its absence. On those planets the second quadruple manifestation is present. Outside of the Vaikuṇṭha planets is the impersonal manifestation of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, which is known as the Brahmaloka. On the other side of the Brahmaloka is the spiritual kāraṇa-samudra, or Causal Ocean. The material energy exists on the other side of the Causal Ocean, without touching it. In the Causal Ocean is Mahā-Viṣṇu, the original puruṣa expansion from Saṅkarṣaṇa. This Mahā-Viṣṇu places His glance over the material energy, and by a reflection of His transcendental body He amalgamates Himself within the material elements. As the source of the material elements, the material energy is known as pradhāna, and as the source of the manifestations of the material energy it is known as māyā. But material nature is inert in that she has no independent power to do anything. She is empowered to make the cosmic manifestation by the glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Therefore the material energy is not the original cause of the material manifestation. Rather, the transcendental glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu over material nature produces that cosmic manifestation." Prabhupāda: So you try to understand this, everything will be clear. Material energy has no power to create. It is this glance that makes material energy energetic. Chemical combination, that alkaline and acid, they create some agitation, effervescence, but it is done by the chemist. He mixes the two liquids and there is effervescence. It is like that. So you read that chapter carefully. You'll solve your problem. (pause) *Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's said in the mahat*-tattva when the Lord glances or impregnates, that the glancing... *Prabhupāda: That is spiritual. That glancing is spiritual. So matter itself cannot do anything. Aja*-jala-stana, aja-jala-stana. The nipples in the throat, neck. As there are some nipples, nipples useless, that is not milk-giving nipples. So nature is creating. They, generally, they say "by nature," but nature has no power. It is matter. When there is glance of Saṅkarṣaṇa or Viṣṇu, that will do. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In that state, when a living entity's impregnated in this state, it is also said that it is in pure goodness. Prabhupāda: Pure goodness always, it is simply covered. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is not the completely manifested yet, but then it says by the contamination of pure goodness by ahaṅkāra, then starts material ego. From there, everything is going to manifest. So once we come to material ego then it seems clear. *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Find out, puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi... Svarūpa Dāmodara: "The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species." How does the contaminated ego or contaminated consciousness differ from false ego? Prabhupāda: Hmm? That is contaminated ego, false ego. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we have a subdivision in the Third Canto for internal subtle senses. It is said mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness and this ego is false ego, and another division is contaminated consciousness. Prabhupāda: This is false ego, "I am this matter, I am this body." This is false ego. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but why it is... Prabhupāda: Ego is there, but this is false ego. Rūpānuga: Then by association with the modes there is contaminated consciousness. Prabhupāda: This false ego develops. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But still in this verse on 7.26, verse 14, it says there are four internal subtle senses. Now these four senses are mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness. Rūpānuga: "The internal subtle senses are experienced as having four aspects in the shape of mind, intelligence, ego and contaminated consciousness. Distinctions between them can be made only by different functions, since they represent different characteristics." Purport: "The four internal senses or subtle senses described herein are defined by different characteristics. When pure consciousness is polluted by material contamination, and identification with the body becomes predominant, this is called false ego. Consciousness is the function of the soul, and therefore behind consciousness there is soul. When consciousness is polluted by material contamination, this is called ahaṅkāra." *Prabhupāda: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān. The same thing. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-sthaḥ bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is-this ego mentioned here*-is it a false ego? That's what I understand. Prabhupāda: Not real. Real ego is "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Rūpānuga: Is there false ego in different modes? Like false ego in the mode of ignorance, false in the mode of passion or goodness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: So the consciousness can be contaminated according to the mode in which it's associating. *Prabhupāda: Yes, prakṛti*-jān guṇān. Rūpānuga: Yes. So I am identifying with my body in any mode, that is false ego. But my consciousness is contaminated by a particular mode. May be passion, may be ignorance, may be goodness. So then my consciousness is contaminated. So false ego is the base of all material activities, but I may be acting in a certain mode, contaminated in a certain way. Is that right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: That is what it means. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everything clear, these four internal subtle senses? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: What else, you got? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually consciousness is a symptom of life, so when we say contaminated consciousness, the quality of life is there, but somehow... Prabhupāda: That is mixed with material modes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Rūpānuga: Originally it is goodness. Very... Pure goodness, you say. Everything in the beginning is... Prabhupāda: I give the example, just like water falling from the sky. It is crystal clear, distilled water. But as soon as touches the earth, it becomes muddy. But that muddiness can be filtered. Rūpānuga: Plus muddiness is the character of the mud, not the consciousness. And it can be cleansed, filtered out. Prabhupāda: Yes, that filtering process is devotional service. So unless the water is different from the precipitated matter, how it can be filtered? Svarūpa Dāmodara: So far we are concerned, prakṛti is clear, but the source of prakṛti is little, ah, so we try to... We want to show this, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our chapter on some sort of creation, creation of material manifestation. Prabhupāda: You'll get from Second Canto. *Rūpānuga: Second Canto. That's that "First Step in Self*-Realization" chapter? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Fifth chapter, sixth chapter, two chapters. Prabhupāda: Atra sargo visargaś ca, that verse, Second Canto, you find out. Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is matter generated within a given body, like the body of a human being? While it's living, is matter generated and annihilated within that body during the time of life? Prabhupāda: Body is matter. Whole body is combination of matter. Sadāpūta: Right. But does the living entity within or the Supersoul... Prabhupāda: Yes, within. Sadāpūta: Does it generate matter, so say the body could get heavier or lighter because of that? Prabhupāda: Because the living entity is there, matter is generated. Just like a tree, living entity is there, and big log, wood is generated. Rūpānuga: Like that stone. That stone is increasing it's weight, so when someone goes to see the stone he sees, ah, the stone is bigger and heavier also. So that increased material or matter that makes up the bigger size of the stone, is that matter being generated from the soul? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: From the spirit soul. So spirit soul has power... Prabhupāda: Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Similarly, from the spirit soul everything has come out. Rūpānuga: So spirit soul can create matter. Prabhupāda: Actually, from life matter is generated. Rūpānuga: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Not from matter life is generated. That is wrong. Sadāpūta: There are some people who have done measurements and... Prabhupāda: : Measurement is there in the Vedic literature, Upaniṣad. Rūpānuga: Is it that the living entity, when he creates this matter to expand, like the stone is growing, does he manufacture this material from the etheric platform, or does he... Prabhupāda: According to his desire he can. Rūpānuga: Simply by desiring. Prabhupāda: : What is that verse? Icchā dveṣaḥ samutthena sarge yānti. *Rūpānuga: There have been some..., modern scientists have done some experiments showing that in the soil there are organisms, micro*-organisms and earthworms that can produce chemicals, increasing just simply by their presence. Prabhupāda: Yes. I have given that example, already he has mentioned. Rūpānuga: Pasteur? Prabhupāda: No, no, this lemon. Rūpānuga: A lemon tree. Prabhupāda: A lemon tree is producing chemicals. Sadāpūta: Some people would say the lemon tree was simply taking food and rearranging it. Prabhupāda: Yes. But the tree is the source, but everything is there in the earth. But God's creation is so nice that through the tree the chemical is coming. The chemical is there in the earth, but the seed of the lemon tree, when it grows, it extracts the particular type of chemical. Sadāpūta: We were wondering then if also it could produce matter, instead of taking from the earth and rearranging it. *Prabhupāda: No, earth is the source of everything. Sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī, you get from... Actually you are getting all chemicals from the earth. Rūpānuga: So they are already there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: Created by Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. The driver(?) is there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's trying to mention an experiment in science, there's a man called... Prabhupāda: That is your duty, mention... Svarūpa Dāmodara: He tries to show that the living system... *Prabhupāda: No, if we can see practically different seeds are exacting different color, different flavor, different chemicals. Everything is coming from the earth, sarva*-kāma-dughā mahī, everything is coming. Rūpānuga: So the plant... Prabhupāda: Simply outside arrangement, how to take it. Rūpānuga: So in other words the tree or the plant in agriculture takes the chemicals from the soil... Prabhupāda: The seed, as soon as come in touch with the earth, the seed exacts particular chemical and everything from there. This is the arrangement. Rūpānuga: So that spirit soul in the seed, he is not creating anything; he is taking. Prabhupāda: Spirit soul, according to his karma, takes shelter of the situation. But the seed, the chemical composition, exacts the desired. Rūpānuga: All Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Can the seed do that without the spirit soul being present within the seed? Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Can the seed extract anything without the spirit soul being present there? *Prabhupāda: No. Seed is instrumental. Just like you have to do something, you require an instrument. Actually, according to the desire of the living entity, he's given instrument, bhrāmayan sarva*-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. Yantra. You require something, you require a particular yantra or machine. So seed is practically the machine, and the living entity is using it to satisfy his desires. Hari-śauri: So that growth of matter, that's the matter is coming from outside, and the spirit soul is simply taking it and expanding his body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sadāpūta: Is earth still being manifested from ether? Like the description in *Bhāgavatam* is from sound and then through different elements finally down to earth. Is that still happening today? Prabhupāda: Every, always happening. Nature's law is going on. Sadāpūta: Yes. So what I was wondering, is like earth still being manifested in living bodies from sound and so on, like the chemists... Prabhupāda: No, no. The process is going on. I've described. That is going on. Rūpānuga: So the spirit soul is in the seed, and the seed interacts with the other chemicals to make growth. So if the chemicals are not there in the earth, then that seed cannot make those chemicals. *Prabhupāda: No, chemical is there in the earth. According to the seed it is exacted. Just like a chemist will analyze or they separate the ingredient, so much this percentage, so much that percentage, so much that. Everything is there. Similarly within the earth, everything is there. The seed is the instrument and the living entity is the exactor*-what is that? Exactor? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. He's executor. Rūpānuga: He takes, utilizes. *Prabhupāda: Utilizer. Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān Svarūpa Dāmodara: Extracts. Rūpānuga: Extracts from. Prabhupāda: Extracts. Rūpānuga: Suppose like now, just like this Vedic injunction against artificial fertilizers in the soil, suppose, as modern farmers are doing, they use this artificial fertilizer and the soil becomes depleted in minerals. Prabhupāda: That means artificial is the same principle. You are living entity; by artificial fertilizer you are exacting something from the earth, the same principle. Rūpānuga: Now suppose we take so many chemicals from the earth and they may become a little depleted. Can those chemicals be replaced by the earth itself as the ongoing process of nature? Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from the earth. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is..., Sadāpūta has an interesting point in science itself, that somebody tried to show that in the living body, when life is within matter, the ah, it doesn't follow the conservation of matter. Science, one of the basic principles of science is that... Prabhupāda: No, no. All the living conditions are there in the matter, provided there is the living being, that's all. Just like a dead body, it is not that the living condition is finished, no. The living conditions are there. That particular soul has left that body. But the dead body is also full of ingredients of living condition. So many germs are coming out when the body is decomposed. You say decomposition, but even in that decomposed condition there is living condition. So the living conditions are already there, matter in any form. So how these rascals say there is no life in the moon planet? That is not possible. The living conditions are always there in the matter. This is the example. Now, a decomposed body, the living being has left, now it is dead matter, but still, the living beings are coming out. How it is? That means matter has always the potency to give shelter to the living entity. So it is impossible that there is no living being in the moon planet. It is bogus. We cannot accept it. Any condition there is provision for the living beings. We see actually, in the earth, in the air, in the water, in the fire, these five elements. Whatever you take, these five elements in different proportions. So the living..., just like from perspiration living entities come out. It is impossible there is no living entities. That is bogus complete. You can challenge like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The living entities that they are familiar with. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Kūpa*-māṇḍūkya-nyāya. They knew some certain type of living entities, that's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they think that all the living entities would be like that. *Prabhupāda: That is their kūpa*-māṇḍūkya-nyāya, Dr. Frog. But the fact is, any condition of material existence, there is possibility of living entity there. Sarva-ga, sthāṇur, acalo'yaṁ sarva-ga. Everywhere there is living entity. It is impossible to conclude that on other planets there is no living entity. It is not possible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it possible to do some experiments? Prabhupāda: You experiment, you see a dead body. It is obnoxious smelling, but living entities coming. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, to show that matter is generated by life, we want to do some experiment. *Prabhupāda: That is there. Every day we are experiencing, huh? Just the same seed and the living entity comes and it becomes a tree and it grows, big tree, huge body. And as soon as it is dead, the body is not increasing. This is experiment. Everything is coming from life. Kṛṣṇa says, He's the supreme life, He says mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva*-samanvitāḥ [Bg. 10.8]. He's the origin of everything, both matter and life, everything. Matter also coming from life, life is also coming from life. Therefore life is the original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. So janmādy asya yataḥ is life. That is explained in the Bhāgavata. Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ [SB 1.1.1]. That source of everything is life and is fully conscious of everything what is happening. Anvayāt, indirectly and directly, fully conscious. That is life. Rūpānuga: So that matter is coming from Kṛṣṇa originally. Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from Him. Rūpānuga: Spirit soul, he has his activities and he's active and... Prabhupāda: He may be inactive, but his subtle desires is active. That is creation. Matter is supplying, that is pradhāna of life. Rūpānuga: So he creates the situation for the matter, but he doesn't create the matter itself. Prabhupāda: Yes. He wants, "I want this," and God is there, He asks material energy to supply the ingredients, and he creates his own situation. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you very much, Prabhupāda. (end) *Evening Darçana-*-July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C. Vṛṣākapi: ...Flemings, Prabhupāda. You are a professor? Professor Flemings: Well, I'm retired. Vṛṣākapi: Retired professor? From what school? Professor Flemings: University of Maryland. Vṛṣākapi: The University of Maryland. What was your subject? Professor Flemings: Modern poetry and theater. Vṛṣākapi: Oh, very nice, very nice. This is, ah, you are a physicist? Carl Warentz: That's correct. Vṛṣākapi: And your name is? Carl Warentz: Carl Warentz. Vṛṣākapi: Carl Warentz, Prabhupāda, he's from Catholic University, physicist. Prabhupāda: If you are uncomfortable you can sit on this cot... Carl Warentz: No, that's okay, I'll sit like this. Prabhupāda: You are welcome to sit down here. Hari-śauri: You can sit on the couch. Vṛṣākapi: This is Eugene Thoreau, Prabhupāda. He's an attorney in Washington, D.C. He's helped us very much opening up saṅkīrtana places. Very good. Vipina: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is a professor from Catholic University, a physicist. Vṛṣākapi: I told him already. Vipina: Oh, did you? Hari-śauri: Bring one or two chairs. Prabhupāda: So how do you like our movement, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? Vṛṣākapi: He said how do you like our movement? Guest (1): Well, for myself I know nothing about it, that's why I'm here. Guest (2): I like it, I've seen some very good people go into it, and I like it. Woman guest: I've known two people who went into it, and I was at a meeting when you were on Q Street. And I've always liked it. Eugene Thoreau: I have found it strangely appealing. I met it by accident at an airport, and one of the devotees gave me a flower, and I was struck by it. So I happen to be a lawyer and I offered my services, and I got a call just a few days after that. Prabhupāda: Open the fan. Carl Warentz: I find it interesting. Vṛṣākapi: You like this speed, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Should we turn this on for you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Āp? (Hindi, "You?") Dr. Sharma: I'm professor at Berkeley, California. And I was Regents Professor at UCLA, University of California, Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. In Los Angeles we have our mandira, we have... You sometimes go to our temple? Dr. Sharma: Yes, I go to the temple in Berkeley. I was at Berkeley about a week ago. I'm in London now, at the Royal Institute of Chemistry. I was born in Haridwar. Prabhupāda: Haridwar. (laughs) Bhagavān ka deśa hari. Hari, Hari means the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and dvāra means the door, the doorway to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is a place in India, Haridwar, people go there for pilgrimage, very famous place. Dr. Sharma: I grew up with yogis and sannyāsīs in Hrishikesh. My father is a recluse. Prabhupāda: Oh, your father is also recluse. *Dr. Sharma: Recluse. And I must tell an incident which, although I was growing up with meditation, I find the bhakti*-yoga, the chanting, really fulfilling and actually making the difference. Actually making the difference. In one case, it is abstract philosophy, which is the rāja-yoga, other yogas, philosophies, and this actually makes the person transformed. Another incident occurred yesterday, when I was meditating and I wanted to ask about five different ślokas of Gītā, out of which, surprisingly, you discussed four. (laughter) This was most astounding to me. Prabhupāda: Which one? Dr. Sharma: *That was one. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. I'd like to discuss two more: karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. If you could please kindly... *Prabhupāda: That is explained in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. *Everyone is engaged in his occupational duties. Everyone is engaged. Generally according to Vedic civilization, the society is divided into eight divisions. Varṇāśrama*-dharma it is called-four varṇas and four āśramas. Materially, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And spiritually, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. These eight divisions. So according to these eight divisions, everyone has an occupational duty. So what is the duty and how the duty is perfected? That is hari-toṣaṇam, to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That people do not know. Especially at the present moment, they do not know who is Hari and they do not know how to please Him. That is the defect of the modern civilization, that they do not care to know who is God and how to satisfy Him. That is the defect. The life is meant for, human life, for satisfying God. That is going on under religious system, and the Vedic civilization is called varṇāśrama-dharma. Dharma is not a kind of faith, religion is not a kind of faith, but it is a duty, varṇāśrama-dharma. So that duty we are forgetting. And therefore we are coming to the level of animals. Because the cats and dogs, they have no duty-animal. But human being has an obligation, a duty to understand God and to satisfy Him. That is human life. Without this knowledge, without this performance of duty, human life is on the level of animals. There are many other verses in this connection. Where are others? They are not present here? Hari-śauri: Svarūpa Dāmodara? Prabhupāda: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: I can find them. Prabhupāda: That is the defect of modern civilization, that they do not care to know what is God and what is our duty. That is lacking. Dr. Sharma: Prabhupāda: So we are trying to enlighten... Vṛṣākapi: This gentleman is from the embassy, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The ambassador couldn't come personally but sent his representative. Vipina: The minister of political affairs at the embassy, Venkateshvara. *Prabhupāda: Venkateshvara? So by evolutionary process we come to this human form of life. It is a chance to understand the value of life, to understand God and our relationship with God, and if we are missing this opportunity, that's a great loss. Then you again become in another form of life. That is sure. As it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. We have to change this body, and if we are not prepared, what kind of body we are going to get next life, then we remain like animals. The animal does not know. And human life, if you are missing this important point, that "I am going to change this body, and what kind of body I'm going to get?" if I do not know, then what is the difference between me and the animal? Dr. Sharma: Perhaps you can comment on the fact that in the movement, the Kṛṣṇa people, not only the sannyāsīs, but also the common working man, his karma is karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. He also... *Prabhupāda: This is karma. Karma means according to that division, that brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Karma means activity. There must be some prescribed activity. Just like you are professor, you have got your prescribed activities. He's the minister of ambassador's, he has got prescribed activities. So everyone has got prescribed activities in whatever position he is, but what is the standard of success, that I have done my duties, prescribed duties properly? What is that standard? The standard is given in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam: [SB 1.2.13] whether you have satisfied the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your duty. Then it is success. Professor Flemings: How do you know if you have satisfied God? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the intelligent question. If you do not know who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and how He is satisfied, then you are lacking knowledge. That is being instructed in the Bhagavad*-gītā. God Himself is instructing how you can satisfy Him. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. It is not very difficult. Anyone can do it. "Just always think of Me," God says, Kṛṣṇa says. "Always think of Me." Just as we think of our friend, of our master, of our beloved, similarly we can think of God also. There is no difficulty. But if you have no knowledge about God, how you can think of God? That is the defect. So the..., how God is satisfied, that is there, but if you do not do it... That is our business, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things. God says that "You always think of Me, you become My devotee, you just offer Me obeisances, just worship Me," four things. Anyone can do it. It is not difficult. Dr. Sharma: You are so very kind you have given us the temple, and these devotees are such saints. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is for this purpose. People may come, see God, then you can think of God. There is no difficulty. If you see something, you think of it. That is man*-manā bhava. And if you regularly do it then you become a devotee. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. And when you come to the temple you worship Him. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26]. Worshiping means give and take. Take blessings and offer little fruit or little flower. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. And if you cannot do anything, just offer your obeisances. Very simple thing. Even the child can perform it. But they will not do it. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhā prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Why does he not do it? That is explained. Because unless one is sinful, duṣkṛtina... He has got merit, but he's utilizing his merit for sinful activities. Kṛti, kṛti means meritorious, but duṣkṛti, he has got merit, intelligence, but he's utilizing merit and intelligence for sinful activities. Therefore duṣkṛtina. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ. Mūḍha means rascal. He knows everything except God. Narādhama, the lowest of the mankind. The human life is meant for this purpose, to understand God. But he does not. Therefore we say narādhama, lowest of mankind. "But he is very educated." māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. He is so-called educated. Actually, he is not educated, because he does not know what is God. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. The basic principle is atheistic attitude. So these class of men will never offer obeisances or surrender to God. *So asuric life is very dangerous, and it is punishable. This is the position. So we should not become asuric. With all material opulences, just like in the Rāmāyaṇa, Rāvaṇa was called asura. He was materially very advanced. He made his capital made of gold, he was so advanced materially. But he did not care for Rāma, therefore he is called asura, rākṣasa. He was son of a brāhmaṇa, but he did not care for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He was a learned scholar, materially very intelligent, there was airplane, everything, but he did not care for Rāma, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore he is described as asura. So asuras are divided into four classes*-duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, and māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. *Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our preaching activities we see that, of course, in Kali*-yuga more and more individuals are turning away from Kṛṣṇa, or God, thinking that God is dead, they don't need to do any type of activities for Him. Then how can we explain to these people that they are missing the entire point of life? In other words, they don't even want to hear. They simply don't want to hear anything. God is dead, and they think that they are enjoying, and it's very difficult sometimes to explain to these people that actually they are not enjoying at all. Prabhupāda: They are mūḍhas, that is already explained. If you cannot convince them, then avoid them. What can be done? Instead of wasting time, you better avoid them. Upekṣā. Useless. Because godless persons means duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ. So it is the duty of the preacher to enlighten them also, to take some risk. But if one is unable to take risk, he may avoid them. *Devotee (1): When we go to universities, so often we run into very educated people, so*-called educated people. Of course, they see us, they think that we are simply sentimentalists, that actually we are not..., don't really have knowledge of the universe. I've explained to these people, it's not necessarily that they are sinful so much as they are just miseducated. *Prabhupāda: No, educated means they have knowledge, but real knowledge is taken away. He does not know God. Just like a man is rich, but he has no food. It is like that. māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna. Therefore his knowledge is misused, duṣkṛtina. This knowledge, without any sense of God... Yes, come in. Sit down. (guests entering) Vṛṣākapi: This is Mr. Davis, Mr. and Mrs. Davis, Prabhupāda. Their daughter is a devotee here, very good devotee. Hari-śauri: There's chair if you'd like to sit in the chair. We can bring one more. Bring another chair. Vipina: Used to be a senator. Prabhupāda: Perfection of knowledge means to understand God. That is perfection of knowledge. Otherwise, it is imperfect knowledge. Therefore it is called Vedānta. Veda means knowledge. (more people enter) Vṛṣākapi: This is Bill Sauer. He wrote this book, The Fourth Kingdom. Prabhupāda: Fourth kingdom? What is the idea? Vṛṣākapi: The idea is that the goal of life should be to... Bill Sauer: To put people on other planets. Vṛṣākapi: Put people on other planets, so that the race can survive. Bill Sauer: So that all of life can survive. Vṛṣākapi: So that all of life can survive. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā: *If you want to transfer yourself to other planetary system, you can go. You can go to the higher planetary system, which is resided by the demigods, devas, yānti deva*-vratā devān; and you can go to other planets, Pitṛloka; or you can remain here as you like; *and you can go to the planet where God is there. Mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām. So this human life, you can make your selection. After all, you have to change your body, that is compulsory. Nobody can remain here with this body, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. And we have to change our body. So we can make our selection, where we shall go next, either in the higher planetary system or the Pitṛloka or we shall remain here or we can go even back to home, back to Godhead. So we must prepare ourselves for that purpose. Then next life we can go wherever we like. But anywhere within this material world, there are four principles, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. There is birth, there is death, there is old age and disease. But if you go to the spiritual kingdom, there is no more such things, no birth, no death, no disease, no old age. Now we can make our selection. And if we do not make our selection, if we live like cats and dogs, without any responsibility, then again we become in the category of cats and dogs. Mūḍha, janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20], life after life, they remain like animals, without any knowledge. Vṛṣākapi: Bill's idea is that we should go by spaceship, right? *Bill Sauer: Well, in the natural world and in the cosmos, nothing is stable. Life only survives all the things that can cause it to perish by mobility, by moving. A coconut tree on one island drops its seeds in the ocean to float for thousands of miles to wash up on another shore, so that if that island is destroyed it will have life on another island. The seed blossom of a plant is the way the plant survives. It sends its seeds off to other meadows to assure its survival. The premise here is that humanity arrived in nature very recently. We are part of nature, but we arrived very recently to give life on earth the same mobility, the same chance to survive. Among the hundreds of other planets in the universe, as a dandelion does in seeding other meadows, as a coconut palm does in surviving on other islands-the coconut palm does not know that there are other islands, but yet it launches its seeds to the unknown currents of the ocean-I believe it is our duty to launch our seeds, our space arks, launch those seeds to the unknown gravitational currents of the stars and find the hundreds of other planets that are out there, so that there cannot be enough cosmic disasters to cause life to perish. And it was meeting two or three of your people at the airport, and I asked them about-at the Washington National Airport, I think it was Meena and Mary Davis, and Sarvabhauma I believe-and I said "What about your philosophy?" He said, "We talk about living on other planets." Boy, (laughs) right away I got very interested. And I believe people have had visions of life to other planets because I believe that's our destiny, and that is our reason for existence in nature. I've been interested in the Kṛṣṇa movement. You'll say why? I'm a materialistic type, why am I here? (laughs) You have an interesting philosophy that... You see, not all of us can be building space arks, not all of us can leave the earth, and we should not be using up all our material resources, destroying all other life unnecessarily. And I think that we have to adopt a life style that is a little simpler, that we would enjoy life on this earth, where most of us have to stay, with lesser material requirements. Secondly, I believe we are going to have to have a different type of society on a space ark if we're going to have maybe a hundred years to two hundreds years going to another star. The traditional societies that we are familiar with may not be able to survive the social pressures. Maybe this type of an environment-Is this communal, would you say?*-I think it's going to have to be some type of communal environment to survive this kind of a trip. So this is my interest in the Kṛṣṇa movement. I think they seem to have the visions of going to other planets, which I think is our only reason for existence. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, I was discussing. Yānti deva*-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. You can go to the higher planetary system where the devas, the demigods live. Their duration of life is very, very big. Our six months is equal to one day there. Such ten thousands of years they live. But they die. It is not permanent. But the duration of life is very big, the standard of life is very high. These are the advantages. But there is death, old age, disease; birth, death, old age and disease. But if you transfer yourself in the spiritual kingdom, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9], then you don't get any more material birth there. That is because we are eternal, we living entities. We do not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. After giving up this body we do not die actually; we accept another body. Bill Sauer: I believe the spirit of life lives on totally in this marvelous planet earth, but I feel the spirit has to be carried and nurtured and improved in the body. So I feel we have to carry the bodies, the material bodies, to the other planets to allow the spiritualism to live there also. Prabhupāda: That is in the material world. If you want to stay in the material, then you change the material body just suitable for a particular place, atmosphere. But we have got our spiritual body. That spiritual body, without any material covering, you can transfer to the spiritual world. Bill Sauer: You believe you can transmit that to other planets? *Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to transfer, because we are giving up this body. So you must accept another body. So either in this planet or in other planets or as human being or less than human being... There are 8,400,000 types of body. You have to accept one of them according to your karma. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. How the next body is developed, that is depending on our work. If we work like demigod, then we go and get the body of demigod. And if we work like dog, then we get the body of a dog. Nature's. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. According to activity and association of the modes of material nature, we get, up and down, different varieties of body. Some of them are low grade, some of them are high grade. That depends on our association with the modes of nature. Nature's work is going on. Just like if we contaminate some particular germs of disease, that disease will develop and we have to suffer. Similarly, by our contamination or association with the guṇa, qualities of nature... There are three qualities, goodness, passion and ignorance. So we have to know how to associate. If we associate with the goodness, then we are elevated to the higher planetary system, deva. And if we associate with passion, then in the middle, just like human being. And if we associate with ignorance, then go down like animal, trees, plants, like that. Bill Sauer: How is the spirit held in the system till it finds a new body? Prabhupāda: Body, that I have explained, that you are associating with some modes of material nature. So according to that association, you'll get next body. Just like, I have already explained. Bill Sauer: Is that immediately after one dies you transfer to another body, or later? *Prabhupāda: Yes, body is changing every moment. That is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā lesson. Every body... Just like a child is changing his body to boyhood, boy is changing his body to youthhood, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. The young man is becoming old man. Similarly, when the body is no more endurable, then you get another body. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. This body is being destroyed, we are not destroyed. We living entities, we are nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam. We are eternal. The proof is given that the child is growing, getting the boy's body. That means the living entity is there, he has changed bodies. When a child is grown to become a boy, the father, mother do not think that "My child is no more existing." He knows "My child is existing, but in a different body." This is common sense. So we shall exist, we existed in the past, we are existing now and we shall exist in the future, but in a different body. [break] Bill Sauer: ...in theses that we..., nature tolerates us. We are part of the tree of life, this is the tree of the animal kingdom. And since there is no way that the animal or plant can escape this planet in the body form, but we are here to support this new tree, the tree of technology, the tree of the fourth kingdom, which started out as the animals lived very simply and became more complex until we finally developed a means to launch the seeds of our civilization from this planet to others. We are a special creature which has been given special brain power, special power, which we have abused many times, by the way. But special power in order to create space arks to take, not just humanity, but really an ark of the totality of life to another planet, to, hopefully, hundreds of planets. Because sooner or later this planet will be destroyed by the sun. Prabhupāda: Other planets also will be destroyed. Bill Sauer: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Other planets also will be destroyed. Bill Sauer: Other planets? There couldn't be enough cosmic disaster to destroy a hundred planets at once. Prabhupāda: Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. Bill Sauer: Our star will eventually turn into a red giant, will incinerate this earth. Other stars, the astrologers have found, or astronomers, excuse me... Prabhupāda: You find out that verse? (Sauer laughs) Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. Bill Sauer: The... Many stars in this galaxy are far less stable than our star. Our star has been stable now for five billion years. Many stars are not stable that long, and we're kind of living on borrowed time. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." *Bill Sauer: Well, I could interpret that in another way, not having any background-you'll have to excuse my ignorance*-that we are the tool of eternity. We are, through our technical capabilities, the ability to spread life so far among so many billions of stars that there will be eternal life, there will be eternal spirituality. Prabhupāda: But there is eternal life. Bill Sauer: But when this planet sits for a billion years at a thousand degrees Fahrenheit, what we know as life will be destroyed. Prabhupāda: Anything within this material world will be all destroyed. But there is another nature, that is being described. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. Bill Sauer: But the spirit is manufactured in the body, is it not, sir? Prabhupāda: Yes, spirit is, but there is a spiritual world also, where you don't require this material body, you remain in your spiritual body. Bill Sauer: But if there is no bodies left, they are all burned up, there's no spiritual development. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, that is not the fact. Bill Sauer: So you need to take the bodies somewhere so that... (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, so long you are in the material world you need to take a material body, but if you are in your original spiritual body, then you remain in the spiritual world. Bill Sauer: Well, I believe there is a matrix of creation, a spiritual... Technical people call it an electromagnetic world, where I'm sure a lot goes on that we are unaware of, but I believe the... It's like one product of the fourth kingdom is the automobile. And that has it's spiritual world. Automobiles, if you destroyed all the automobiles, there are still blueprints around, there are still things that can manufacture other automobiles. But the trial, the improvement, the development the automobile has to take place as an automobile... Likewise, I think the spiritual improvement, the improvement of... Prabhupāda: Automobile, automatically the automobile does not develop. When a man, a person, develops the design, that is a question of development. But the automobile as it is, it does not develop. It is matter. When matter is handled by a spirit soul, then there is change. Otherwise there is no change. Dr. Sharma: Perhaps I can give you a scientific explanation. I'm a scientist. According to science every cell is changed within twelve years. Every single body's cell is changed. Bill Sauer: It's continuous, yes. *Dr. Sharma: It's a continuing process, by the molecular process, all right? And Gītā says: vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya navāni gṛhṇāti naro 'parāṇi [Bg. 2.22]. Just like you change the old clothes to new clothes*-it's an exact word-to-word translation. Sauer: We're a continually changing image, right. *Dr. Sharma: The body changes. Now the concept of God, according to the scripture, is infinite. With our finite mind, we cannot comprehend the infinite. Because the finite can only comprehend a finite portion of it. Just like when I was a child, my concept of God, the infinity, was a certain portion of infinity, but it changes. So long you are comprehending the material part of an infinity, you are only comprehending a small part, and consequently, when the body changes or the soul changes, you will never be able to comprehend the material and the transition of the material to another planet, because there is no way you can comprehend the totality of the God's manifestation. In the Eighteenth Chapter, when the virāḍ*-rūpa is given, he cannot comprehend the whole māyā. And the idea of transporting body or material is just a very small, finite portion of the total infinity, which no one can comprehend. This is what Prabhupāda is... Bill Sauer: I agree. What we are, are the resulting images of the power of creation. We are the evidence that there is a creative power. Dr. Sharma: And consequently, since we are only a manifestation of the total power... Bill Sauer: That's right, we are a manifestation, an image of it. Dr. Sharma: That's why you cannot... An electric bulbs, when they are turned on and off, the light is there, but it is very hard to say where the electrons are flowing into, which... Bill Sauer: Well in our case, our electrons are flowing from one place, the sun, and the imagery in your magazine is just beautiful. It shows the imagery of the man and the sun, and what we are, scientifically, as you know, (devotees laugh) we are images of sun energy, and this is where electrons come from. And when the sun goes out, we go out, unless we go to another star where there is another sun. Vipina: Bill, could you explain to Śrīla Prabhupāda how you think life is created? Bill Sauer: How it is created? Vipina: Yes. Prabhupāda: Who is the creator? Bill Sauer: Well, there is a creative force. The power of life is light, and you say (laughs) Godhead is light, nescience is darkness. I believe it, it's trite and very true, in my understanding. Vipina: He thinks everything comes from light, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Bill Sauer: Now all the religions refer to God as light. Most of the religions, and science agrees. Light is that very fugitive bit of energy that allows life to be possible. Prabhupāda: Unless there is fire, wherefrom the light comes? Bill Sauer: From the fire in the sun. Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore the fire is the source of light. Bill Sauer: That's the source of light, yes. Prabhupāda: So as soon as you say light, you must find out the source of light. Bill Sauer: That's correct. You must destroy matter in order to create light. Woman guest: What about water? Dr. Sharma: You don't destroy any matter; it is transmutation. Bill Sauer: Or, excuse me, I don't mean destroy, it's transmuted from matter to energy. Dr. Sharma: That's the Einstein's equation, mcṝs11ūp6 2 is equal to mass and the speed of light, you described that. You can transmute matter, there is no matter destroyed or created. *Bill Sauer: That's correct. Matter and energy are really the same thing. It's another form, that's correct. So once you have light, you have the source of life, and then you have to have an enormously creative power to take the light, move it into a form which can become life. It started out as single cells in the ocean or simple chemicals in the ocean, then single*-celled, then more complex celled, all with an extraordinarily complicated creative power causing the light to flow through, to create a new image, which is light. And it's very similar, as you understand the television picture has the same electromagnetic energy that we are. We, with our simple brains, can take electromagnetic energy, tune it, transmit it, retune it as a two-dimensional picture. The creative power in life has taken the same electromagnetic coming from the sun, and has tuned it in the form of living images, three-dimensional images, far, far more complicated than our simple television. Dr. Sharma: I'll read your book page by page and you do the same number of chanting. (laughter) Bill Sauer: All right. Dr. Sharma: Okay? Bill Sauer: Yes, sir. *Dr. Sharma: And you'll be surprised what happens. I'm a hard*-core scientist, and to me, it's a transformation, absolutely. I'll read your book and you read the transformation. I'm sure you'll get ahead much quicker than me. Bill Sauer: I've talked to your people, and I think there's pretty much agreement on the fundamental philosophical concept. Dr. Sharma: There's something magnetic about it, something creative which comes from inside. Prabhupāda: Where is our scientist? *Vipina: Svarūpa Dāmodara*-could you get him? Hari-śauri: I already sent somebody for him, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I don't think he's here. Prabhupāda: He's not here. Vṛṣākapi: They went to the Library of Congress today, Prabhupāda. They aren't here right now. Bill Sauer: I think you put it better than I did. We do not destroy matter, we transmute it to energy, that's exactly correct. And it is the..., and in fire you are again transmuting material chemical energy into light. And when our light source goes out... *Dr. Sharma: And it surprising, I'm a scientist, I publish papers, now it is all coming together. It is after a long search which we are doing, the body systems, how to be coordinated. Endocrine systems and the nervous systems (indistinct) and that is coordinated through prāṇāyāma*-yoga and the chanting. Basically indirectly is a straightforward... Bill Sauer: Well, there, fundamentally, there should not be a difference between science and religion, really should not be. Dr. Sharma: All scientists, all big scientists are the greatest religious people. I am at Berkeley right now. All Nobel Prize winners, they always say that all of our science, we cannot create a single leaf or a single flower, we feel so helpless. Bill Sauer: You know Calvin? Dr. Sharma: I was professor at UCLA. Bill Sauer: Very good. See, he got his Nobel Laureate in explaining how the chemistry of light turns into life. So I passed my manuscript by him to make sure that he didn't run me out of town. So he agreed. He said it was rather novel. But I believe there is a fundamental truth that runs through the whole system, and I've read some of your comments in the magazines, and I think you are fundamentally in agreement. Dr. Sharma: Prabhupāda, perhaps you can make commentary on this śloka, Prabhupāda: The material civilization is the jāgrati for the materialistic person. But those who are spiritually enlightened, they think that these persons are sleeping. They got the opportunity of understanding God, and without understanding God, they are simply busy with the material body and its comfort and working hard day and night, and missing the point. And whereas the materialistic persons, they see these Kṛṣṇa conscious people, Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they are wasting their time by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and they are doing nothing. Just the opposite business. These people are seeing the materialistic persons, they are sleeping, not enlightened to the spiritual life; and these materialistic persons, they are seeing that these people, under some fictitious idea, they are spoiling their life without enjoying material facilities. Just the opposite. Bill Sauer: I try to resolve these two views. I believe that materialism has a divine purpose. Prabhupāda: Everything has got divine purpose. But if you do not understand the divine purpose, then you remain animal. Bill Sauer: Yes, that's right. *Prabhupāda: Everything has got divine purpose. This human form of life is given to us by laws of nature to understand what is God, what we are, what is our relationship with God, what is this material world, why you have come here, these things we have to know in this human form of life, and, if we like, we can know also. But instead of knowing these different phases of life, if we simply take care of this body like the animals, then we miss the opportunity. The animal is concerned to take the care of the body, that's all. If we simply remain taking care of this body, then we are animal. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Bill Sauer: Sir, may I read you back the, my version of "Materialism Without Purpose"? May I read you "Materialism Without Purpose"? "Mankind's insatiable appetite for material things stems from instinctive desire to pursue technology, which in turn drives civilization to a frenzy of activity. However, without a cause or a purpose," or spirituality, as you say, "the rush and hurry in uncertain directions to uncertain places creates an excess of technological gimmickery. Perhaps this continuing quest for more material goods would be less anxious if the cause of this obsession of mankind were universally recognized. If we saw the ultimate use of technology as an extension of nature with a purpose for the whole life system, perhaps a new life style would evolve. We would see creative natural instinctive satisfying outlet for energies, and we might all collectively attain more peace of mind. The waste of technological gimmickery would then disappear. Hard reality, however, will extinguish our relentless desire for material things if we do not correct the situation ourselves. We will soon run out of resources and power if our technological explosions continues as blind as a raging torrent of water flowing in any direction gravity takes it." Prabhupāda: Yes, we are carried away by the laws of nature. However you may improve your technological science, you are under the laws of material nature. That you cannot change. But if you revive your spiritual life, then you can change. Otherwise it is not possible. If you keep yourself under the laws of material nature, then you have to be carried away by the laws of material nature, however expert you may be in technological understanding. Because, after all, you are an instrument in the hands of material nature. *You are falsely thinking "I am everything. I can, by technological understanding, improve the condition." But the real problem is, as it is put forward by Bhagavad*-gītā, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. We are eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. We are put under the laws of material nature, by which we have to accept birth, death, old age and disease. This is our real problem. So unless you make a solution of these problems, there is actually no advancement of education. But the problems remains the same. Bill Sauer: Saying that we're governed by the laws of nature, since we are a biological creature like the rest... (laughs) Prabhupāda: So you should not remain under the laws of material nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. It is very difficult. Bill Sauer: In one of the cover letters that went out to some of the people in the American Institute of the Aeronautics and Astronautics, I referred to mankind as a biological phenomenon to solve one of nature's big problems. And a man wrote back, "Anyone who calls man a biological phenomenon shouldn't try and talk to me." So I don't know what he thinks we are, but... Prabhupāda: Biological phenomenon... Bill Sauer: It is nature, it is governed by the laws of nature, exactly. Prabhupāda: So you can get out of it as it is advised, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. It is very difficult. But mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. If you surrender to God, then you can get out of this biological problem. Otherwise it is not possible. Mr. Davis: May I just add one little note to my friend, and I'm sure my scientist friend will back me up, that the radiation from the sun is far more than just light, which is, after all, just a mere part of the electromagnetic radiation. Bill Sauer: Physical light is what you're talking about. Mr. Davis: Yes. Bill Sauer: I'm talking about the whole electromagnetic spectrum. Mr. Davis: Yes, but you said light. Bill Sauer: I wrote, I've said it in the book, that it is far more complex than we can even imagine. Let's see... Dr. Sharma: Devotee (2): Excuse me, is your name Bill? Did you ever inquire to ask what is the source of the light? If you look at a light bulb you can examine that it has a source. You can trace it back to the electric company, and the people who are running the electric company are personalities, right? So in the same way the light of the sun and the light of the moon is coming from a person, a personality, right? And that person, we say that person is the source of all truths actually. Bill Sauer: That's an interesting way... I said: "Radiant energy from the sun was to be the most important ingredient for our living earth. We know the content of the sun rays to be light and heat. This is what our senses tell us. We measure waves lengths and we see colors in sunlight. However the sun rays are a blend of radiant energy so complex that we may never understand their significance." And I believe, at least in our generation, I don't think we'll quite understand how complex the sun is. So I agree totally with you. Dr. Sharma: It's not only that, by the theory of relativity, the observer is also a part of the observed... Bill Sauer: That's correct. We will never understand... Dr. Sharma: For that reason, it's difficult to comprehend infinity by our finite mind, and chanting gives you something, gives me something. Bill Sauer: : That's right. Well, you find an intuitive understanding... Dr. Sharma: I can't explain it. Mr. Davis: It brings you to the uncertainty principle. Dr. Sharma: Uncertainty principle, yes. Bill Sauer: I'm glad you said that. Then this holds true, that we may never understand the significance, and being observers on the scene we probably never will. Einstein used to say he'd like to..., he used to wonder how it might be to ride a wave of light so he could see how it really was. But since we're sitting here... (laughs) Dr. Sharma: Someday we have to have the faith, and the only thing, as Prabhupāda said, that there is a bottle of honey inside, and being outside, you can see, but unless you taste it, you can't really feel it. *Bill Sauer: Probably the most important... I quoted some people. This is Tierre De Jardin, who was a very religious man in science, was caught right in the two, and I consider this probably the most important quote in the book. De Jardin said "In the mutual reinforcement of these two still*-opposed powers...," namely religion and science... Dr. Sharma: No, I would never agree to that. Religion and science... *Bill Sauer: In the Western civilization it's opposed. He's saying philosophically, he said "In the mutual reinforcement of these two still*-opposed powers and the conjunction of reason and mysticism, the human spirit is destined by the very nature of its development to find the uttermost degree of its penetration and the maximum of its vital force." In other words, spirituality and science already have truth. *Vṛṣākapi: Excuse me, one thing is you should address your questions to the authority. This discussion that you are having will get you nowhere. Unless you apply your questions to the authority, then you will never understand anything. So the authority is Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, and His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta is teaching on that authority. So if you have come here, then you should try to address your questions to His Divine Grace rather than arguing among yourselves, because you will not find any satisfaction in your argument. If you want information, then you must go to the authority. Guest: Still, the argument was an aspect of the occasion, and it came out of the wisdom that he's here. *Prabhupāda: Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. Things which are inconceivable, do not try to understand by argument. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. So our process, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is to take knowledge from the authority. Unless we take knowledge from the authority, however we may go on arguing, we cannot come to the conclusion. The modern scientists, philosophers, they are arguing, but they do not come to the conclusion. If you want to take conclusion... Just like two lawyers are arguing in the court, but the conclusion is given by the authority, the judge. That one has to accept. So we take authority, the Bhagavad*-gītā or Kṛṣṇa. He is accepted authority by all the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and in the śāstra also, Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Devala, Asita. So our authority is confirmed. So if we take conclusion from the authority, then we benefit. Otherwise, with our limited knowledge, if we go on arguing, then we cannot understand the conclusion. That is not possible. Tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā. By argument we cannot come to the conclusion. I can argue, and you can argue, but you may argue more than me. Another person can argue more than you. In this way, you do not come to the conclusion. And śrutayo vibhinnā. So far scriptures are concerned, there are also different scriptures. Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. And a philosopher is not a philosopher if he does not agree with others, if he does not agree other philosophers. So in this way, you are perplexed. Therefore it is advised, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. We should accept the authority, and then we shall be benefited. So the authorities are mentioned in the śāstra, who are authorities. So if we follow the authorities, then we get the conclusion. So Kṛṣṇa is the authority accepted. At least in India, all the Vedic authorities, Vedāntists, they have accepted, Kṛṣṇa is the authority. So we simply follow what Kṛṣṇa says, and we get benefit out of it. Then it is all right. And without following authority, if you go on arguing, there is no end. The same example, that two lawyers, both of them are learned scholar. They are going on arguing on some point, they do not come to conclusion. But when the judge gives his conclusion, that has to be accepted. That is final. So we have to find out the judge. That is Kṛṣṇa. So we have got many points to understand by argument, but if we take the judgment of Kṛṣṇa, then it is conclusive. And He has His direction in every field of life, in the Bhagavad-gītā. Even our political leaders, they also accept Bhagavad-gītā in guidance. So if you take guidance from Bhagavad-gītā without malinterpretation, then we are benefited. Unfortunately, we interpret our own way, which is favorable to us, and that is not required. Then the authority of the Bhagavad-gītā is gone. We make our own conclusion, supposing on the authority of Bhagavad-gītā. That will not help us, by malinterpretation. You take the conclusion of Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then you will be benefited. Eugene Thoreau: May I ask a question? Is it possible to aim at any form of personal existence after death? *Prabhupāda: Yes, you are personally existing, you are old man. When you were a child, you were person. When you were young man, you were a person. Now you are old man, you are a person. We are personalities continuing although the body is changing. You are not missing your personality. So therefore personality continues even when you change this body. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, in the Second Chapter. Kṛṣṇa says... Find out this verse. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Hari-śauri: Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]? Prabhupāda: No, there is another verse where Kṛṣṇa says, "My dear Arjuna, you and Me and all these persons who are assembled here..." Hari-śauri: Na tv evāhaṁ jātu nāsam. Prabhupāda: Ah, that verse. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Translation, "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." Prabhupāda: Yes, that means in the past we existed, at present we are existing, and in future we shall continue to exist, individually. And that is our experience. I existed in the past as a child. So I existed as a person. I existed as a young man, so I existed as a person. I am an old man now, now I am existing as a person. Naturally, the conclusion is when I shall change this body, I shall remain as a person. How we can change this conclusion? I am continuing to exist as a person. I am still existing as a person. And here is the authority, He says in the future also you remain a person. So there is time factor, past, present and future, and in all these time factors I live as a person. Not only I, but also Kṛṣṇa. He says "I also remain as person. You Arjuna, you also person, I am also person, and all these soldiers and kings who have assembled, they are also persons." So our personality continues, past, present and future. Mr. Davis: Then when you die and you are buried, they bury your body. Prabhupāda: My body you bury, but I go away. *Mr. Davis: They bury my body, they bury your name, they write it on a stone maybe, but they bury your name, they bury your memory. What survives, I was going to ask, and then what survives-no memory, no body, no name*-is the spirit. Prabhupāda: That is soul. Mr. Davis: And the spirit would not necessarily have the ability to point and say "I used to be in that body or that body or that." *Prabhupāda: No, that he forgets. Death means forgetfulness. Just like accepting that I was existing in previous life, but now I do not remember. This is death. But I am existing, that's a fact. The same example. Everyone knows that he was existing as a child, he was existing as a young man. So because it is short period, I remember, but when the body is completely changed, the atmosphere is completely changed, we forget. But actually I exist continually. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. This is the authoritative statement, that I am not annihilated on account of my body being annihilated. So they bury the body or giving some name, some tomb, that is the business of my relatives, my friends, my family members. But as I am, I am aloof from this. I have accepted another body. And then begin my life in a different way. So people do not try to understand this science, how it is happening. That is all described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. If we study Bhagavad-gītā very carefully, we can understand the philosophy of life correctly. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This gentleman here has a question, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Eugene Thoreau: You mentioned understanding, you mentioned lawyers arguing and the judge make the decision and their higher authority resolves the question. Can you suggest how people can go beyond that to spiritual understanding*-not just appealing for judgment over a controversy about facts. What suggestions or comments do you have about achieving spiritual understanding? *Prabhupāda: That is very simple. Spiritual understanding, that is, I was speaking... This is beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā. Spiritual understanding is that I am not this body. (to devotee) You move it this way. This is spiritual understanding. So long I am under this bodily concept of life, that "I am this body," "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Christian," "I am white," "I am black" and so on, so on, these are all bodily concept of life. So long we keep ourself on this platform, then we are on the material platform. When we understand that "I am not this body..." That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Deha means this body, and dehī means the owner of the body. So unless we distinguish the owner of the body and the body, there is no spiritual knowledge. So long we identify with this body, that is material knowledge. And when we understand that "I am not this body, I am a spirit soul, I have been entrapped by this body," that is spiritual knowledge. Mr. Davis: Is it not also true that the more you can realize "I am not this body," but there is that within my body which is spiritual, and that is there in an African's body which is spiritual, or a Chinese... Prabhupāda: Everyone's body. Mr. Davis: Everyone's body, therefore the thing we have in common is we are all a part of the spirit. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fact. We are part and parcel of the supreme spirit, God. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. "All these living entities, they are My part and parcel." Qualitatively, we are one. Just like a small particle of gold is also gold. It is nothing else. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, we have got that godly qualification. God can create. We can also create. That example I have given in my last magazine, that we have created this big 747 airplane, but we cannot create a mosquito. That is also plane, with pilot. That is God's creation. So the creative power, both of us, we have got, but we are limited, and He is unlimited. That is the difference. A drop of seawater contains the same chemicals, but the quantity of Atlantic Ocean and drop of Atlantic Ocean is not the same. So we are just like drop of the Atlantic Ocean, and God is Atlantic Ocean. That is the difference. But chemically test, the whole Atlantic Ocean is salty, we are also salty. Whatever chemical composition is Atlantic Ocean, we are also of the same chemical composition. And because we are part and parcel of God, therefore we show sometimes activities very wonderful, but still, God's activities are still more wonderful. That we cannot compare. That is not possible. So we should understand what is the duty of the part and parcel. Now, just like this finger is the part and parcel of my body. So what is the duty of the finger? To serve the whole body. I order the finger "Please come here," immediately it does like this. So the finger, being part and parcel of the body, it is the duty of the finger to serve the whole body. When the finger is unable to give any service, then it is diseased. If there is some pain in the finger, I want to use this finger for some purpose, to pick up this flower, I cannot do it, that means it is diseased. Similarly, we living entities, part and parcel of God, when we are unable to give service to the Supreme, that is our diseased condition. That is not normal condition. And when we are actually able to give service to God, that is our healthy condition. So in the materialistic way of life we are diseased. Because we are diseased, therefore we have to accept birth and death. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. So we have to get free from this diseased condition. Śuddhyet sattvam. Yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam.(end) *Room Conversation-*-July 7, 1976, Baltimore Prabhupāda: We have got our authority, I have got my authority, *Bhāgavatam*, Vedic literatures. Why shall I give you better preference, your authority? I have got my authority. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we'll explain there are two types of acquiring knowledge. Two different techniques. Now the scientists are believing their own... Prabhupāda: That is imperfect. Inductive knowledge is always imperfect. Deductive knowledge is perfect if it is taken from the authority. Suppose man is mortal. So inductive process is that you examine every man whether he's mortal or immortal. So suppose you have seen millions of men, and they are all mortal, they die. Then your conclusion is man is mortal. But I can say you have not seen a man who does not die. I can say that. So this inductive knowledge will remain always imperfect. It will never be perfect, because your examination is limited. So I can that say you have not seen the person, man... Suppose if I say you have not seen Vyāsadeva, he's immortal. You have not seen Aśvatthāmā, he's immortal. So how this scientific research can be perfect, inductive? It is never perfect. Because you may be missing somebody who is immortal. Then your conclusion is wrong. There is no scope of studying all the living beings. There is no such scope. You have limited scope. So your seeing power is limited. How you can decide from the limited seeing power? Rūpānuga: They will say, "Well, we have done so many good things, we have produced so many nice things." Prabhupāda: You have done nothing good, I say. You have simply wasted time and taken public money, that's all. Rūpānuga: "We have made some mistakes, but we have produced some good things in medicine and, anyway, you should accept our authority because we have done so many good things." Prabhupāda: No, because you have done something, that I accept. Just like you have done very good, 747 airplane, but just make a mosquito, with pilot and everything. Can you do it? Then why do you take all the credit. Take credit for 747, that's all. But when I ask you create another plane like a fly or mosquito, you are unable to do it. Then why do you take, "There is no God; science is everything." Why do you say like that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why we want to bring up this point that "Scientists, we are not claiming that you are all nonsense, but you are all good men, but you should know your limits." Prabhupāda: You should not be so proud falsely. That is our point. And mislead others that there is no God. Because you are accepted as authority, scientist, if you say that there is no God, they will accept it. Then our back to Godhead movement is stopped. Then we must stop your also nonsense. It is a fight. Because you say there is no God, and we say you are all nonsense. We must say it. You are challenging, we must challenge. But you accept God, then we have nothing... I think Sir Isaac Newton said like that: "The vast knowledge, we have simply gathered a few grains of sand on the beach of knowledge," something like that. That is good. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, humble. Prabhupāda: That is good. But how you can say there is no God, everything is science? And misleading people. That must be stopped. You take credit as much as you have done. That we are ready to give you. Because you have created one airplane, 747, therefore you can do everything, if you give... Like that, that is misleading. That we cannot... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, once that very concept that they will be able to do all these things, if that is removed, then they come on the platform as... Prabhupāda: Of sane man. They are talking like insane man. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa(?): But that inspiration is that we can always do something bigger and better than we've done before. Prabhupāda: But still you cannot do in the final. That is not possible. Because you are finite. You are not infinite. Your knowledge is limited. You can do something up to some extent. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: They agree, they all agree, Prabhupāda: They are giving bluff: "Yes we shall produce life. Wait for millions of years, wait for millions." This is nonsense. Who will wait for millions of years and see your scientific discovery? Rūpānuga: They say "Yes, we are finite, but we can work together, combinedly together, and make great progress, scientific progress. All working together, every nation." Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything which is beyond your power. But you are limited, your power is limited, that you must agree. Your power is not unlimited. You are finite. That you must admit. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Then they say "Yes, we may be limited and our inductive process may be imperfect, but, you may criticize, but you have to show us something better." Prabhupāda: I may not show, but as I give you example, that you have manufactured 747 and God has manufactured mosquito. You do that. We are... I am layman, but I see there is another, better manufacturer than you. I may be layman, but I can see that you cannot do it. If you say you can do it, then you are rascal. I must say that you are rascal. First of all do, then speak. You take your credit, as much as you have done. But if you want to take the place of God, then we must slap you right and left. (laughter) We cannot give better credit than God to anyone. That is our business. Asamordhva. There is nobody equal to God, nobody is greater than God. This is our preaching. So you cannot claim equal to God. No question of becoming greater than God. You cannot become even equal to God. You are always under. You admit it, then we have no quarrel with you. You admit that "Yes, we are under God," then we are friends. Devotees: Jaya. Prabhupāda: And as soon as you say that you are equal or greater, then you are rascal. We must expose you, that you are a rascal. This is our business. Because we are servants of God. We cannot see anything blasphemy against God. That is not our business. We must chastise immediately. Rūpānuga: In that way we can help the people in general. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually, that is the fact. If you are actually scientist, then prove that there is God. That is your success of education. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi*-dattayoḥ avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito... [SB 1.5.22]. Your education has meaning when by your education, by your scientific knowledge, you'll prove that there is God, He is so glorified. Then you are welcome. Then you are really scientist. And if you become a rascal, then you say "Oh, there is no need of God. We are going to manufacture. Just wait for one million years." Is that good proposal, I have to wait for one million years to see your scientific research work? And we shall allow such fools to flourish? That is not possible. Rūpānuga: It will be a very great service to the people in general if we can stop. Prabhupāda: Warn that "Here are thieves, be careful of your pocket. They'll say all bluff and take money from your pocket." Rūpānuga: We will call a spade a spade. Prabhupāda: Yes. What do you think, is that right process? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So make a magazine to expose this. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca [SB 1.5.22], you, by your knowledge, you describe the glories of the Lord, then you are my guru. This is our... If they say "Why do you bother about God?" that is the business of human being. A human being, he is given the chance to understand God, and you people are stopping, putting stumbling block in his understanding of God. You're the greatest miscreant. I have got a chance to get one million dollars, and if you check it, I cannot get it, how much mischievous you are for me. Is it not? What do you think? Rūpānuga: Yes, they are stopping it. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got chance to get from a friend one million dollars, and he's ready, and if somebody checks it, that I may not get that one million dollars, then he's the greatest enemy. Rūpānuga: They are stopping the benefit. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the human life is meant for understanding God, and these rascals by all dead theories, they are stopping to understand God. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Scientists are responsible for that. *Prabhupāda: Yes, the greatest mischief*-maker, in the name of scientific knowledge. We must fight against them. Let them agree, "Yes, God is supreme." Then there is no fight. But as soon as they say that there is no need of God, science will solve everything, then they are rascal, you must expose. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Another point about this Institute, from my experience in the last few days in Washington, there were some Indians who come to the temple, and they are very favorable to the concept. Prabhupāda: Include such members. Let them... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday this Sharma, Dr. Sharma, he came, and he's going to come this evening, he's quite well known as a scientist. Prabhupāda: Medical man? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, he's not medical man, but he has two or three Ph.D.'s in two, three different fields. In engineering, in chemistry and in pathology. Vṛṣākapi: He's becoming a life member, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That pathologist. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. He works in National Institute of Health in Washington, D.C. We was telling me he was from Haridwar from a very pious family, and he said his parents are Vaiṣṇavas, and he has been thinking since from his childhood about this problem about life, the origin of life and consciousness, and we talked a little bit about our concept of this origin of life, connecting from the *Vedas* and the scientific interrelationship. And he was very much impressed, and he told me that if he can be of any help, he's willing to... Prabhupāda: You should call him, let us. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, he's coming this evening. Prabhupāda: All right, very good. Pradyumna: In India, there are many Ph.D.'s and scientists who are Vaiṣṇavas, and they write articles. But in India it doesn't go noticed. In the South, there are many. Prabhupāda: In South, eh? Pradyumna: In Bangalore and many places. Prabhupāda: They are all Vaiṣṇavas. So recruit them. You know? Then let them write articles in this. Yes, it will be very nice. Pradyumna: Yes, we can print on the magazine, "Please write articles," many big men... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, in fact he wanted to put an articles, this very man Sharma, he wanted to write an articles on consciousness. Prabhupāda: Let them write, we shall publish. And similarly, ask the South Indian Ph.D.'s, we want so many Ph.D.'s writing. Then it will be respectable. People will understand that this is not ordinary thing. All learned scholars they are writing, that will carry some respect. Rūpānuga: So these persons, I was mentioning to you in the car, that we would like to have them associated in some way with the Institute, so... Prabhupāda: Yes, if they write articles, if they read our books, that is associated. Not that they will have to come here and sit down with us. Let them read the book and deliberate and write nice article, their opinion. That will be nice. Then you'll get sufficient article for publishing. That is wanted. All the Ph.D. Vaiṣṇavas, they may take advantage of this. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, and it will be respected in the big circles. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. If they are getting respect talking all nonsense, and here we shall glorify the Supreme Lord, why not respect? When they try to satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa, His glory, then the Ph.D. is perfect. And if continues to talk nonsense, then it is useless waste of time and labor. Devotee: Another point about this journal is that we will present controversial things, and people may want to write something to refute what we have said. Prabhupāda: You refute. Devotee: We can publish that and also our refutation? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. We invite, "All right, come on." Devotee: "Criticize, and we will defeat you." Prabhupāda: Yes, it is fighting. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That will be very good. Devotee: Yes, it will be more interesting. The more fight, the more people like it. Prabhupāda: So, we shall have to go now? Rūpānuga: I think it's best if we would drive back now to Washington. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Let us go. Devotees: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Try your best, Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence. I started this fight alone, now Kṛṣṇa is... (end) Rūpānuga: ...how you explained that our movement is eternal. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. Rūpānuga: Just so they don't think it is only ten years old. (devotees bring in a cake or Prabhupāda distributes, eating, etc.) Devotees: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Rūpānuga: It is very heavy cake. *Prabhupāda: Hm. Very nice. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). This is the movement of ānanda, pleasure only. Kṛṣṇa is ānandamaya, and if you remain with Kṛṣṇa you'll become ānandamaya. A rich man, he's enjoying, and if you remain in association with the rich man, you also enjoy. Where is the difficulty? A very rich man, and his associates, they are also rich men. Is it not? And if you remain with poor man, you are also poor. Rūpānuga: You've explained that the servant in the house of the king, he is almost as good as the king. Prabhupāda: No, he is better than king. King, he eats whatever is offered to him, but they can eat whatever they like. Is it not? Who is restricting them? (aside:) You can open that. Just stand towards there. Yes. Hari-śauri: Is that, cutting the cake, is that a Vedic..., did they used to do that in Vedic times, or is that a Western invention? We were just wondering about it. Prabhupāda: Prasāda distribution. Either you cut or take with hand, the same thing. It doesn't make any difference. Rūpānuga: On the cake it was marked on one side 1966, on the other side 1976. Like a coin. They make coins celebrating, commemorating. Prabhupāda: And the cake is made very nicely. Who has made it? *Vṛṣākapi: This one girl, her name is Lalitā*-sakhī. She stayed up all night. Rūpānuga: And then it was decorated by Ambujākṣa, who is an artist. *Prabhupāda: Woman should be expert in cooking. That is their natural tendency. They should be educated how to cook nicely, how to please the husband, how to take care of the children. This is Vedic civilization. In the beginning a woman, childhood, she's trained up by the mother. Then as soon as she is married, formerly, child*-marriage, so she's transferred to the care of mother-in-law. There she is trained up. Then she becomes very good housewife, takes care of household affairs, husband, children, and home becomes happy. What is this nonsense, divorce? There is no such thing in the Vedic civilization, divorce. You must accept whatever God has given you as husband or wife, you must. They had no thinking even, idea of divorce. One may not agree with the husband. That is natural. Sometimes we do not agree. But there is no question of divorce. When this divorce system was introduced? Rūpānuga: Comparatively recent. Because for many years the Catholic Church forbade it. When did it begin? Pradyumna: Henry the Eighth, the King of England. Prabhupāda: Oh, he's the rascal. Pradyumna: He had many wives, he wanted to divorce his wife and he could not under Catholic Church, so he started his own church, Church of England. Prabhupāda: Because many wives were not allowed? Hari-śauri: No, they had a system, one wife, but he got fed up with them. He chopped off the heads of two of them and then... It was considered a bit outrageous. So then he wanted to divorce and have another wife after the third or fourth one. Prabhupāda: So he used to cut them, the head? Hari-śauri: Yes, two of them he did. And then the Catholic Church excommunicated him. *Prabhupāda: Therefore in Vedic civilization they keep, they have more than one wife. So what is the use of killing? Why one should kill? We find from the history, Dhruva Mahārāja's mother and stepmother, there were some critical words, and Dhruva Mahārāja became very, very angry. So the critical words and wives, different wives, that may be, but why one should cut off the head? Dhruva Mahārāja's mother said when Dhruva Mahārāja began to cry before the mother, mother said "My dear child, what can I do? How can I help you? Your father does not care for me, even as maidservant, what to speak of I am queen, I am the senior queen. So this gentleman does not care of me even as maidservant. How can I help you? If God helps you, then..." That was her statement. So that does not mean because the king did not like, she should be beheaded. What is this nonsense? If he is,(?)... may be... After all, he is king. He may not like first wife. Actually, there was no scarcity of comfort, but liking may not be, but that does not mean that she shouldn't be accepted as wife. Kings were allowed to marry more than one wife. Why to accept another wife means another wife should be killed? What is this? Everything nonsense. King can marry more than one wife. And at the time of marriage they were given so many woman. Because the woman population is greater than the man, always. So when the King is married, along with the queen, many other friends of the queen they would go with the king. They live in the same palace, same palace. Sometimes they had children, dāsī*-putra. Just like Vidura. Vidura was not queen's son. One of these women friends. So that was allowed. Rūpānuga: They were raised with the real sons. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rūpānuga: Treated nicely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not that because he is born of a dāsī no care should be taken. No, equal. But he cannot inherit the throne, that's all. There was no question. Even Muhammadans, they used to marry more than one wife. Two hundred years ago, one Muslim Nawab of Lucknow, Wazel Dusayet(?), he had hundred and sixty wives. The palaces are still there, Lucknow, hundred and sixty palaces. Why the Nawab? Our Kṛṣṇa, not hundred sixty but another zero, another, hundred sixty thousand, two zeros. Hundred sixty plus two zeros. They were not neglected. But He is God, He expanded Himself also, sixteen thousand forms, so that no wife would feel separation. So if one husband can maintain properly more than one wife, he's allowed. But the wife must be taken care of properly. Not that because I have got more than one wife, one is neglected, one is... No. She must be taken care of. Vṛṣākapi: We were talking the other day, not in our society though. Prabhupāda: Huh? Vṛṣākapi: Not in the ISKCON society, though. *Prabhupāda: In the Kali*-yuga one cannot maintain even one wife, what to speak of more than one. They are afraid to marry one wife. I first heard this, one elderly lady in New York. At that time, I was newcomer. I asked her, "Why don't you get your son married?" "Yes, he can be married, provided he can maintain wife," she said. So these things were unknown to us. In India, whether he'll be able to maintain... Just like I was married when I was third-year student. Where is the income? There is no income, but still I was married. *Hari-śauri: That was formerly the Western system, that the prospective son*-in-law would be checked first to see whether he would be able to maintain the girl. *Prabhupāda: No, that is everywhere. But expectation, he is educated, he'll be able. The first thing is in due time, either the girl or the boy must be married, that is Indian system. In due time. Boy not exceeding twenty years or twenty*-five years, at most, and girl not exceeding fifteen years, sixteen years, must be. Saṁskāra, this is one of the saṁskāras. Just like garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, this is also one saṁskāra, and marriage is also saṁskāra. Must be married. Daśa-vidha-saṁskāra, ten kinds of saṁskāras, out of which marriage is one of the saṁskāras. And kanyā-dāya. Kanyā-dāya, dāya means by law the father is bound to get his daughter married, by law. He cannot escape the responsibility. This is father's duty. Rūpānuga: You gave the example that if sometimes the man becomes bankrupt he goes to court and the judge says, "You must take this money you have left to your creditors and be satisfied," and he can escape in that way. But the one duty that a father has is getting the daughter married; that he cannot escape. *Prabhupāda: No, therefore it is called dāya, dāya*-bhāk, legally he is bound. He may not get his son married, but the daughter must be married. This is father's duty. Rūpānuga: It is sinful, actually considered sinful, if he doesn't do that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because without father the daughter cannot be properly married. Daughter or son, everyone, if the father, mother, by their supervision, the boys and girls get married, that is very good. They see how they will be happy. And without father, mother, simply by lusty desires, that selection may be wrong and that becomes actually happened. Therefore there is divorce. Rūpānuga: In this country the father and the mother, they tell the daughter that "You go out and bring a husband home. You go out and find a young boy and bring him home." And they make them go out in the street to find a husband. Prabhupāda: I know that. Sometimes they are advised to do business. I know that. When, in our society, in the beginning, I started marriage, the father, mother, did not like it. Nowadays it has become custom, in India also, let the girl have many friends, but don't marry unless you find out a suitable man. Society degrades. Actually the Indian system is that when the girl is utmost twelve years, not more than that, ten to twelve years, she must be married. And the father would see, not necessarily in every case the boy is rich man or educated. If he's healthy and if he can work, he'll "Take charge." Then fortune, faith. Rūpānuga: That is responsible. Vṛṣākapi: How should we do this in our ISKCON society with these young girls? Prabhupāda: Of course, we are not very much concerned with the social affairs, but still, if we can organize society, that will be very good. That will be peaceful. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Might be possible on the farms. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Away from the bad social environment of the cities. Prabhupāda: The system is the boys and girls should be married earlier, and they should work, and there should be no divorce. But whether your country law will allow, that is another difficulty. You may introduce something, but the state law may not approve of it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think there is any minimum age for marriage, simply the parents have to give their consent under a certain age. There's no minimum age. Hari-śauri: There is in England. In a lot of countries now there's a minimum age. No, they cannot be married under that age. Women sixteen, men eighteen. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But with parents' consent. Rūpānuga: ISKCON parents, if the girl is fifteen, like you said, fifteen, then the ISKCON parent may give permission, that is legal. Not only that, but our own men, as I have done in Virginia, I have registered as minister in the state, and I can perform marriages. So our own men can register to perform marriages. Prabhupāda: Another difficulty is the boy and the girl, they also do not stick. That is another difficulty. Rūpānuga: That is the biggest one. Vṛṣākapi: Every father, he wants his son to stay brahmacārī and become sannyāsa. So who will be willing to give up their son for marriage at a young age? (pause) Prabhupāda: Hmm. (laughter) Hari-śauri: You were saying the other day, actually the only solution is if everybody chants. Prabhupāda: That is the only solution. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We were experiencing it just now, everyone was so happy chanting. *Prabhupāda: If one can remain without marriage, that is first*-class. Rūpānuga: Women also? *Prabhupāda: Women also. What is the use of this material husband? Make Kṛṣṇa husband. Kṛṣṇa's prepared to become everything*-love Him as husband, love Him as son, love Him, friend. Kṛṣṇa is prepared. Rūpānuga: I have see in our society that if the preaching is strong amongst the leaders and there's serious chanting, leaders see that everyone is chanting and happily engaged, that there is no disturbance. If the preaching is weak, there is sexual disturbance. Prabhupāda: Then the material desire becomes prominent. Rūpānuga: Then everyone becomes lusty. (end) Prabhupāda: ...bora bora phet, lanka dinga ke matta kare het(?) It was translated by a Mr. Roe, a professor in the Presidency College, he translated "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." When the problems of life is read, then they are melancholy, all these big, big scientists. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Hanumān, one monkey, he jumped over the Ceylon. So other monkeys also, they were very much proud that a monkey jumped over the ocean. And as soon as he was challenged, "Can you jump over?" melancholy. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Big, big monkey, big, big belly. These are the translation by Mr. Roe, a professor of English in Presidency College. So what is the proposal now? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We want to discuss about the journal that we are proposing to have from the Institute. *Rūpānuga: So Ravīndra*-svarūpa Prabhu is going to be the editor, you approved in Māyāpura. We were thinking if you could give us some idea for a title. Because we were thinking so far is that we would have a subtitle, like we have "Back to Godhead" then we have "the Magazine of the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement." So we would have the subtitle, "Bhaktivedanta Institute" or "Journal of the Bhaktivedanta Institute," but maybe you would like to have a title of the journal. So we wanted to know if you had some hint. *Prabhupāda: Yes, you can title, entitle, Sa*-vijñāna. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sa*-vijñāna? Devotees: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Jñānaṁ me paramaṁ guhyaṁ yad vijñāna*-samanvitam. What is that Bhagavad-gītā verse? Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ pravakṣyāmi tad vijñānam... Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Seventh Chapter. Rūpānuga: That is good, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That is a very nice title. Pradyumna: "I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge, both phenomenal and noumenal, by knowing which there shall remain nothing further to be known." Prabhupāda: Yes, nothing further to be known. *Pradyumna: Sa*-vijñānam *Rūpānuga: Sa*-vijñānam. So we can say "Sa-vijñānam, Journal of the Bhaktivedanta Institute." Is that all right? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sa*-vijñānam. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Do we need some sort of translation? Devotee: On the inside cover we can have this verse... Prabhupāda: You can give this verse. Devotee: Give the verse on the inside. That can be the motto. Prabhupāda: Is that nice title? Pradyumna: Scientific. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, sound very... Rūpānuga: It's a very good title. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in this journal we can publish from different disciplines of knowledge from any branch of knowledge and principle. Devotee: Science, philosophy, economics, sociology. For the scholarly, academic community. *Prabhupāda: Yes, socially you can teach how this cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13], how it is scientific. In the society, if there is... Actually we have. Just like why these, maybe so-called scientists, but why the scientists are given so much importance? Because there is a brain. So if you make everyone equal, all śūdras, then who will be the brain? The brain is required. That is brāhmaṇa. So this, not this brain, this brain is śūdra brain for everyone. But when the... But just like here is Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, or you are here. So you are not scientists from the very birth. You have been trained up how to become a scientist. Similarly, the birth is there. Whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. But you have to be trained up how to become first-class brain. That is brāhmaṇa. You have to become truthful, you have to become controller of the senses, you have to become fully aware of things, of God, everything, full knowledge, then you become brain. These people give scientists so much importance because there is brain. Brain, in the society, there must be brain. So without brain how the society can go on? If you simply produce motor mechanics, then? Brain must be there. Just like this is brain, Sanātana Gosvāmī is asking, ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya. This is brain. "I don't want some uncomfortable situation, but why it is enforced?" So when you make research into that, that is brain. And if we remain like animal, "All right, they are dragging me to the slaughterhouse, that's all right, let me go," that is not brain. Brain means that I am seeking after perfect happiness, why I am not allowed to have this perfect happiness? That is brain. The question, if there is any remedy. They are doing this. Scientific brain means there are so many problems, they are trying to solve it. That requires brain. But because they are poor scientists, they do not know how to make a solution of the ultimate problem. They are making tiny problems, that's all. There is power shortage, all right, let us invent some substitute of petroleum. Brain is being taxed. Again it is finished, again another. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. But they are so dull brain, they do not raise the question that we are making solution of one problem, another problem is ready. That brain they have not. So how long we shall go on solving the problems, another problem, another problem? Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. He does not know that nature will not allow me to live peacefully. So we bring problems after problems. That is material life. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī. Everything is there. You discuss only Bhagavad-gītā, you'll get so many subject matter to think and write. This is brain. We are solving one problem, another problem is there. Why this is happening? If there is any situation without any problem? That is brain. Rūpānuga: We had another practical consideration. We were thinking, could BBT publish the journal? BBT would publish the journal? Prabhupāda: But whether you'll be able to publish regularly. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Quarterly, at the beginning. Rūpānuga: Four times a year. Every three months. *Prabhupāda: Because it must be very sa*-vijñānam, it must be very scientific. Rūpānuga: Oh, yes. I'll see to it. Prabhupāda: That's all right, BBT publish. Why not? Rūpānuga: We can provide the copy work and all the graphs and things, and then they would lay it out and do everything, like with your books. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just like other things. And it will be BBT property. That's all. Rūpānuga: Your property. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can also do it for the books also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't it? It will be published by BBT, but coming out from Bhaktivedanta Institute. Devotee: That will be good for the Institute if the name is on that book. Prabhupāda: That's all right. From Bhaktivedanta publisher. Yes, that's all right. Can do something like that, there is no harm. But this world is a problem, but we want solution of the problem but we do not know how to solve it. Is it not? Do the scientists know? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are trying. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Not a single problem they have solved. Can you cite that this big problem they have solved? Rūpānuga: In fact you have said that they are creating a new problem each time. Prabhupāda: That is the nature. You cannot solve the problem. You will create problem. If you don't live natural life, then you will create problem. Just like the other than creatures, other than human beings, they have no problems, because they are living naturally. So our human beings should also live natural life. Then his only problem is birth, death, old age, and... That he will be able to solve. That is the difference. The birds and beasts, they are living natural life, but they have no capacity to solve the problems. They are living a natural life. But the human being has the capacity to solve the problems. Real problem is birth, death, old age and disease. But they do not touch the real problem. Hmm? They avoid it because they cannot solve it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They keep it for the future. They postpone. Prabhupāda: That is postdated check. "You take this million dollar check." "When shall I use it?" "After millions year you can cash it." This kind of propaganda no sane man will accept. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's like chemical evolution. Million years it will happen. Prabhupāda: Billion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, in a million years. *Prabhupāda: Then the answer is the chicken is better than you. He can give you life within seven days. Dr. Chicken is better... They are shameless. Not ordinary, because ordinary a human being will become shameful to speak something nonsense. But they are shameless. In that Bengali, duḥkhānvita(?) One man, one ear was cut off. So in order to hide his cut*-off ear he was keeping this side to the river side and this side to the habitation side. So then again his two ears were cut out. Then there is no question of hiding. Both of them were cut out. So these people are duḥkhānvita. When both the ears cut out, there is no shame. They will go on talking all nonsense. Because they are accepted. So many millions of years have passed in the history, nobody could do that, and they are giving hope that life will come after millions of years. Why million? Here is a chicken, he can give life within five days. What credit you'll get after millions of years? But they are duḥkhānvita.(?)So shameless they can speak such nonsense and still pass on as scientists. Tibocham,(?) I think. Duḥkhānvita. No shame, you do not feel that why you are talking nonsense. Am I right or wrong? Here is a chicken, insignificant animal, he is giving life within five days, and we are talking of millions of years, and still we are scientist, Dr. Frog. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are going to use that example in our preaching. Prabhupāda: The thing is that these persons, they are holding the... Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. A blind man, he has no eyes, and still, he's leader of other blind men. Is it possible? A blind man, he is blind man, he has no knowledge, and still, he's leading other blind men. This is a very dangerous position. He has no actual knowledge, simply speculating, putting theories and formulas, and they are leaders of the society. Rūpānuga: We have to stop this. Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise people are misled. It is not the duty of education to mislead people. Real knowledge should be given. To become a great misleader and take some title, that is not good. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The other morning Śrīla Prabhupāda was mentioning about the Institute, the Bhaktivedanta Institute. So is there anything else that your Divine Grace wants to? Prabhupāda: Institute, you have got sufficient subject matter as I was describing, this original source of life and the planetary system, as you are going to make planetarium. Who can say about so many planets in the sky? Who has got sufficient knowledge? They cannot even give... They think that moon is the nearest planet, but we do not think like that. But still they are unable to give sufficient knowledge about the moon. It is not vacant, it cannot be vacant. We do not find any part of the world vacant. There is living entities. This earth planet is part of the universe, and the moon is also part of the universe. If it is not vacant, how that can be vacant? You have got dust there, we have got dust here; *you have got rocks there, here we have got rocks. And why it is vacant? We find in the dust also there is life. When we walk on the beach, it is simply sand, there are so many crabs. They are immediately flying, running, "Here is a man coming. Enter into the hole." So even the dust, in the sand, there is life. So why not there? In the water there is life, within the sand there is life, in the air there is life, everywhere there is life. Why it should be vacant? Hmm? What is the opinion of the scientists? How...? We are layman, talking like layman, but why there should not be life? And in the śāstra we get there is life. Not only moon, every planet is full of living entities. Jagat*-kīrṇa(?). There is human being, there is animal, everything. How it can be vacant, God's creation? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they cannot see. Prabhupāda: See..., you cannot see your father, that does not means there is no father who begot you. That is no... They cannot see, do they say like that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They cannot see that, so they cannot prove by experiment, so... Prabhupāda: What experiment? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just from experience also. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: They want to go and see for themselves, so they say they have gone to the moon planet, and they say we have not found life. Prabhupāda: We say you have not gone. I have not seen you, that you have gone there; you say only. How can I believe? Vipina: They show pictures and it was on the TV. Prabhupāda: That is also, you have made picture. I have not gone and seen that. How can I believe you? The same argument. You say that you have gone to moon planet, but I have not seen that you have gone there. How can I believe you? Vipina: Is there some other way we can argue with them, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, no, let us, now just answer this question that you say you have not seen. I say, yes that's all right, because you did not see, therefore you don't believe. But I did not see you also that you have gone to moon planet. How can I believe you? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: How is it possible to deceive so many people? Prabhupāda: Whether it is not possible or possible, but if you put this argument, that I have not seen, I can say that I have... (end) *Evening Darçana-*-July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C. Vipina: He would like to know if you have any questions in particular you'd like to ask. Guest: No. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's a very big library, many books. Prabhupāda: They have all our books? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Including the earlier *Bhāgavatam*, Śrīla Prabhupāda's earlier volumes from India; it's available there. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) You like our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? You know how we have got New Vrindaban here in America? We are giving protection to the cows. In New Orleans, and what other places? Vipina: Virginia, Rūpānuga's farm. Hari-śauri: Tennessee, Bridesville. *Indian man (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, some of Indian people, they quote Veda and say that beef*-eating was recommended in Vedas, and I don't know whether it's true or not, but they quote Vedas, Atharva-veda and... Prabhupāda: Do they give any quotation? Indian man (1): No, they don't give any quotation, but... Prabhupāda: Rascals. (laughter) Dr. Sharma: Even scientifically now it is being proven that many of the diseases, like of the kidneys, of the heart, arterial sclerosis, arteriosclerosis, uremia, gout, is because of high protein diet, particularly meat. Many of the scientists now are going away from meat by chanting. Prabhupāda: By? *Dr. Sharma: By chanting Kṛṣṇa we also feel that meat is no longer necessity, in fact it is harmful for longevity and health of the body. So whether it is beef, pork or anything, all this meat is very harmful. Both in Heart Institute, cancer and other, they are finding that meat is harmful for the body*-on scientific grounds, religious grounds apart. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? The Christians claim that Christ ate meat and therefore there's nothing wrong with it. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (1): The Christians say that Christ ate meat himself, that there's nothing wrong with it. Prabhupāda: Hm? Christ ate meat? I don't think so. Hari-śauri: They say fish. Prabhupāda: Therefore you should maintain slaughterhouse. Very good reasoning. Because Christ ate fish, therefore we should maintain big, big slaughterhouse? Is that good reasoning? *Dr. Sharma: Meat*-eating is not useful from three points of view. Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from that. He said that Christ ate fish, therefore we should maintain big, big slaughterhouse. What do you think? Is that good reasoning? Devotee (2): No, it's demoniac by common sense if you maintain large slaughterhouses, it's completely irreligious. Prabhupāda: When Christ said "Thou shalt not kill," does it mean that he wanted to maintain slaughterhouse? What is the answer, hm? Devotee (1): No. Vṛṣākapi: The Christians say that you kill the vegetables, you slaughter the vegetables. Prabhupāda: Therefore we shall kill father, mother. You kill vegetables, therefore I shall kill my father and mother. Is that reasoning? Dr. Sharma: I have a different concept of (indistinct), if I may give: When I'll be half as good as Christ, maybe I can be permitted to eat meat. Prabhupāda: No, take the example of Christ. But because he ate fish, so because we eat vegetables, therefore a good cause for eating father and mother? For killing child? Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that only the human has a soul, therefore it's wrong to kill humans. But other animals you can kill because there is no soul. That is their argument. Devotee (3): They'll ask what should be killed and what shouldn't be killed for eating? Where do we draw the line? *Prabhupāda: No, you, we are speaking go*-rakṣya. That is not point of view of killing. There are other animals. We do not say that you stop. If you want to eat some meat, at least don't kill cow. You can kill other insignificant animals which has no importance. Cow has got special importance because it supplies milk, and milk is very essential food that is... From the childhood, a child lives on milk, and there are many saintly persons, they also live by drinking milk. Milk is very important item in the human society, and it supplies all vitamins. Even if you say that "Meat-eating is essential for me," you can eat other animals, but don't kill cows. That is our proposal. Give protection to the cows. Kṛṣṇa mentioned specifically, go-rakṣya. He does not say that you don't kill, but you give protection to the cows. And if you want to eat meat, you can kill other animals. On the whole, paśu-hiṁsā, any animal killing, is not good for spiritual life. And so far vegetable is concerned, everyone has to eat something. So if you can eat vegetables, that does not mean because somebody is killing vegetables, he should kill his own father and mother on that plea. So cow is mother because we are drinking her milk. So you cannot put any argument in favor of killing mother. If you... Anyone who supplies milk from the body, she is mother. According to Vedic civilization, cow is one of the seven mothers. There are seven mothers: the real mother, ātma-mātā guroḥ patnī, the wife of spiritual master; *then queen, rāja*-patnikā. Ātma-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī, the wife of a brāhmaṇa. In this way, especially, seven mothers, dhenu, dhenu means cow, and dhātrī, nurse, she is also mother. So from that point of view, cow is mother, and you cannot kill on any ground the mother. That is not good reasoning. You are taking the last drop of milk. In South Africa you said? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They have one slaughterhouse and just beside, I have seen, just beside there is dairy. So at night they bring the cows in to the dairy, milk them to the last drop, and then to the slaughterhouse and all night screaming. I heard because the Indian neighborhood was about five hundred yards from the slaughterhouse. Then in the morning you'd drive by and the carcasses are hanging up. Prabhupāda: So you are drawing the last drop of milk from the cow and sending her to the slaughterhouse. Is that very good civilization? Dr. Sharma: Swamiji, the beef industry here is based more on... The argument of mother would be a little weak. Prabhupāda: Hm? Dr. Sharma: The beef industry here is more based on steers, which are not, which are basically bulls given high estrogens and bred in that way. *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we are layman, and we follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction that cow, milk is very important, we drink the cow's milk, therefore she is mother. So at least she should be saved from being killed. This is common sense. Apart from other big, big reasoning, we take it, Kṛṣṇa says go*-rakṣya, so we take it. Besides that, so far vegetables are concerned, Kṛṣṇa says that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: [Bg. 9.26] "If anyone offers Me even patram," patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam,"I eat them." So we take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. So Kṛṣṇa says "You give Me these vegetables, plants." So we offer Him, and then we take. Besides that, everybody has to eat something. So generally, food grains, vegetables, they are recommended for eating purpose. And those who want to eat meat or fish, they can do so, but at least they can avoid the important life of cow. That is recommended. So far we are concerned, we are eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam, foodstuff offered to Kṛṣṇa, and this, there is no such thing as meat or fish, or egg, but we are living. Not that because we do not eat meat or fish, we are dying. We can eat very easily. Anna. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. Actually, if we take food grains like wheat, rice, pulses, vegetables, fruits, milk, that is quite sufficient, nutritious foodstuff, full with vitamins and, what is called, protein, carbohydrate. That is sufficient. Why should we kill? At least, cow? That is our request, because Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya. And in His practical life He played as a cowherd boy giving protection to other cows. There is a picture, Kṛṣṇa is sitting, and the cow and the calf is feeling very safety. Kṛṣṇa is embracing. So because we want to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, we want to follow His personal behavior and instruction. *Guest (1): Prabhupāda? For every animal except the cow, you said, like a..., does a person have to pay off a one-to*-one ratio for the animal killed? He just has to come back one time for, like, killing a goat? Is it just one time then, instead of many times? Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His question is that is there some formula, that if you kill one animal or one thing then you get killed in the exact same ratio? You kill one thing, you get killed once. So in other words, if you are responsible for killing hundreds and hundreds of animals throughout your lifetime, does one have to take birth hundreds and hundreds of times and be killed? Prabhupāda: Yes. For killing, you cannot kill even vegetable. Vṛṣākapi: This is Mr., ah, what's your name? Mr. Boyd: Boyd. Vṛṣākapi: Mr. Boyd. His daughter is a devotee in Germany. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mr. Boyd: Barbara. I had the privilege of going to India a month ago and bringing her home, and I met two of your... Prabhupāda: She is in India? Mr. Boyd: Yes, she was at Vṛndāvana, and she'd been there for about three months. She contracted malaria, I guess, and was not doing too well, and we got concerned. So we went down to see how she was. She was due to go back to Germany, so we brought her back here and got her back in shape, I guess, and sent her back to Germany. And while we were there I met one of your friends, I guess, a fellow named Mr. Dubhai? Prabhupāda: Dubhai, yes, in Vṛndāvana. Mr. Boyd: You know him, and Himāvatī. I told them I'd see you pretty soon. I thought maybe you might be interested in seeing a few pictures? She said she was your friend, and you were her very good friend, and sent her regards to you. (laughter) That's quite a temple in Vṛndāvana. Very impressive. Prabhupāda: Oh, you liked it? Mr. Boyd: Yes, it was quite startling to come up the roadway there, and things looked pretty desolate, and all of a sudden here's this beautiful temple sitting here, and it was a real experience. Prabhupāda: Oh, here is Mr. Dubhai's picture. Mr. Boyd: Yes. (laughter) He was quite a gentleman. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You stayed in the guesthouse there too? Mr. Boyd: No, I was just there a short time, I had to come back. We were only down there about four days. We had to bring back Barbara, she was in pretty rough shape. She had gotten malaria, only she wasn't doing too well. Prabhupāda: What is this picture? Mr. Boyd: That's just down the street from Mr. Dubhai, that's a big tree, it's an Indian tree, I don't know what it is, it grows up and down both. It happened to be in his yard. (laughter) Another highlight of the day. Hari-śauri: Banyan tree. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have banyan trees in America. In Florida. Mr. Boyd: Oh, is that banyan tree? You see, they are not particular to this area. Hari-śauri: Hawaii's full of them. Mr. Boyd: That's not what I find in the backyard. That was the first time I'd seen one. They indicated that the day before, they'd walked by there and was startled, there was an elephant standing under it. First time they'd seen one. Of course, you know, it's out of environment, if all of a sudden you see one, you don't realize it. I didn't realize it either, but in India elephants are commonplace. But it's not common for me to be in India. (laughter) I was very impressed with the cleanliness of the country, though, in that area. Prabhupāda: Hm, very nice pictures. Mr. Boyd: The two that were taken in Philadelphia, they are not what I call quality work, but are the best I could do and run. You didn't sit still too long. Prabhupāda: This child is your daughter's son? Mr. Boyd: No, that little fellow came from Germany. Prabhupāda: She has got children? No. *Mr. Boyd: No, she doesn't have children, but Haṁsadūta Mahārāja sent this child for Himāvatī to take care of at the school, and I guess the school was not ready yet, but she's taking care of him now, and he's a handful, too. She came up to New Delhi with us and spent a couple nights while we were getting some passports straightened around and visas cleared up. We had "Baldy," they called him*-I never did know his name. We had a good time with him. It's a real pleasure having this opportunity to meet you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Mr. Boyd: Barbara's been in the movement for two and half years and it's been..., we've heard a lot about you and a lot about the movement, and we've kept pretty close, you know, track of what's going on, and we've visited the different temples and talked to the different devotees, and we're quite impressed with the action. Prabhupāda: We are having the difficulties of this immigration department. Mr. Boyd: I guess, if it's like India, you've got troubles. We almost went to jail rather than get out of the country. *Prabhupāda: We think, according to our philosophy, everything is the property of the Supreme Lord, and we are all sons. So everyone has the right to use the property of the father. So that consciousness should be spread. This barrier of nationalism is against Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why there should be? Actually everything belongs to God. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. The sky, the land, the water, they are all creation of God, God's property. But we should not take more than what is allotted to us. That is real life. Otherwise, I have practically studied that there is enough land. Just like in your country, in America, there is enough land, not utilized. They can be properly utilized, and if food grains are produced, there is no question of scarcity of food all over the world. Not only in America*-in Africa, in Australia. [break] If we get nourishing food, every one of us, so there is no economic problem. Mr. Boyd: How do we handle these people who don't seem to want to carry their own weight, though, Prabhupāda? The ones who don't want to work and help produce this food? *Prabhupāda: They should be trained up. Therefore Vedic civilization is training. Some section of the people, they should be very intellectuals, brain, just like to maintain this body we require first of all the brain. If the brain is not order, then other parts, they may be there, but they are also useless. So similarly, in the society, some intellectuals should be maintained. They are called brāhmaṇas, and some of the brāhmaṇas, they are sannyāsīs. They are simply meant for giving good instruction. They should personally become very good and intellectual, and they should give instruction to other people what is the value of life, how to live. This is one section. They should be free from the anxiety of maintaining themselves. The society should treat them as children and give them all necessities, bare necessities, not they are meant for living very luxuriously. No. Simple living. Then the next class, kṣatriyas, the politicians, administrators, they are also required to give protection to the people from injury. Kṣatriya, kṣat means injury, and trāyate, "one who saves people from injury." It is kṣatriya's duty. So kṣatriya should protect all the living entities, including the animals. They are also subjects. So the first, intellectual brāhmaṇas, then kṣatriya. Then vaiśyas, their business is to produce food. Food production you can do by agriculture, kṛṣi, and by giving protection to the cows. If you get sufficient food grains, like rice, wheat, pulses, and sufficient milk*-from milk you get yogurt, butter, ghee-then your all food problem is solved. You must eat. You must eat, you must live properly. So this first, second, third, the intellectual class, the administrative class, and the productive class, these three classes must be there in the society. And those who cannot be grouped either of these three classes, they should generally help as workers. They are called śūdras. So the workers means... Suppose you require a sitting place: the carpenter is there. Suppose you require a knife: so the blacksmith is there. You require clothing: the weaver is there. In this way, four classes of men. First class, second class, third class, or the intellectuals, the administrators, the producers and the general workers. This is Vedic system of division. Brāhmaṇa... This is for our living condition, and then human life especially meant for spiritual realization, self-realization. For that purpose, again, another four divisions. Generally, the brahmacārī, student life; gṛhastha, married life; vānaprastha, retired life; and sannyāsa, renounced life. So at the end of life one should be renounced from all other responsibilities and completely devote his life for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. In this way, when a person dies in God consciousness, his life is perfect. This is Vedic civilization. Eight divisions, varṇa and āśrama. And if you simply produce śūdras, working class, then you cannot have any happiness. That is not possible. And nowadays democratic, if you send some śūdras to act as kṣatriyas, they cannot do it. You have got practical experience. In Vietnam, what happened? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The American soldiers, they were simply taking intoxication, hunting after prostitutes and running from the enemy. *Prabhupāda: And when they were attacked, they were running away. Because they are śūdras. How they can fight? They are not trained up as kṣatriyas. Huh? Anyone who is unemployed, let him become a soldier, but he cannot fight. That is not possible. Neither this class of men can have good brain to give direction to the society. The democracy means anyone can go to the government, and because he's not kṣatriya, his only business is how to get money so long he's on the post. Just like you did not like your President, Mr. Nixon. So that is the risk. If you keep the society in chaotic condition, any department, intellectual, administration, production, they'll be all topsy turvey, and there cannot be any peace in the world. So this Vedic scheme, varṇāśrama, is a very important scheme. If possible it should be introduced and taken up very seriously. That is one of the items of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to reestablish the institution of varṇa and āśrama. Not by birth, but by qualification. Cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Guṇa-karma, by quality. In India, the varṇāśrama is there, but it is not organized because the government does not take care. The government is imitating Western way of life, "There is no need of brāhmaṇa, there is no need of kṣatriya, simply śūdras." Everywhere this is the position, the śūdra population, kalau śūdra sambhavaḥ. In this age everyone is a śūdra. So it doesn't matter, everyone is born śūdra, but he should be trained up. Just like in our practical life we see that everyone is not born a scientist or engineer or lawyer. Everyone is born innocent, child, then he's trained up by the guardians. Similarly, there should be a training how to become brāhmaṇa, how to become kṣatriya, how to become vaiśya. And the government should see that everyone, as he is trained up, he is working according to his quality and occupational duty. Then there will be complete peace and harmony. That human society is perfect. Vipina: His question is that now the government is corrupt, so what can be immediately done? *Prabhupāda: How there can be, because the democracy? You are corrupt, therefore your government is corrupt. You correct yourself, the government will be automatically corrected. If you are rascals, the government will be rascals. The government means elected. So if you are not rascal, you'll not elect another rascal to take charge of the government affairs. But because you are rascal, you'll send another rascal. So how can you expect good government? You do not know whom to select. And besides that, the whole population is rascal, śūdra. So anyone you elect, if he's by qualification he's a śūdra, worker, he's not intelligent person, he's not brāhmaṇa, he's not kṣatriya. Actually, the legislative assembly, or in your country, Senate? They should be all brāhmaṇas. They give advice. Formerly this was the system. Although it was monarchy, even Lord Rāmacandra or similar kings, they were not ruling independently*-they were taking advice from learned brāhmaṇas, sages. So the legislative assembly should be composition of intellectual brāhmaṇas. Then the other administrators, the President or the minister, they should be kṣatriyas. In this way, if social organization is made, then there will be perfect peace. If śūdras are allowed to rule over, what they know? Their only aim is that so long he is in the office, "Let me collect some money," that's all. And that will be the latest atmosphere, dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Rājanyair dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. All the government men will become thieves and rogues. Dasyu, dasyu means thieves and rogues. So as the thieves and rogues capture you on the street and ask "Whatever you have got, give, otherwise I shall kill you," so this will be the position in the Kali-yuga. It is happening now. You cannot have any private property; *everything you have to declare. Otherwise, it will be taken by force. So people will be very much embarrassed by two things: one thing is taxation, and another thing will be scarcity of food. In this way, all the people all over the world will be embarrassed, so much so that they will leave their home, hearth and home, ācchinna*-dāra-draviṇā yāsyanti giri-kānanam. Being separated from family and property, they will take shelter in the hilly ranges or in the forest to get relief. This will be the position. Harassment, so much harassment, by nature, by government. So therefore for complete happy society, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential. All intelligent persons, they should join this movement and reform the present social, political, religious. All field of activities, they should reform. Then people will be happy. Not only happy in this life, but also next life. Unfortunately, the present education does not provide knowledge of next life. There is no such education. They are kept in darkness like cats and dogs. They do not know that there is life after death, and we get our next life according to our present activities-karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. These things are unknown. Very risky life. If I am prime minister in this life or president, and if I am going to become a dog next life, then what is the benefit of becoming prime minister or president? And nature's law is that you get your next life according to the mentality at the time of death. So if I have acted like cats and dogs throughout whole life, naturally I shall think like cats and dogs at the time of death. Then next life is cats and dogs. So I may be worshiped here in a statue, that "Here is our beloved prime minister," and next life, I'm barking as a dog. Then what is the benefit? Mr. Boyd: Well, that might depend on what kind of prime minister you were. *Prabhupāda: No, that is possible, I can become prime minister or any big man. But if I do not work properly, if I work like animal, then my next life is animal. There is no consideration that "Here is a prime minister, why he should become a dog?" Nature will act. If you infect some disease, you may be prime minister or you may be a common man, if you have infected that disease, you must suffer from that disease. That is nature's law. There is no consideration that "Here is prime minister. He has infected the malaria germs. He should not suffer." Nature's law if not like that. Just like you say that in India there is malaria. So your daughter was not excused, that "Here is a girl coming of very respectable, good family. She should be excused." No excuse. You have infected malaria germ, you must suffer. So similarly, kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. We are associating with different modes of material nature, and according to our association, sat, asat, good birth or low-class birth is there-either as demigods in the higher planetary system or human being in the middle planetary system or as animals, low class. There are three classes of birth. That depends on our association with the modes of material nature-goodness, passion or ignorance. So at least in the human form of life nobody should be kept in ignorance. The facility must be given. That is civilization. Every human being should have the greatest opportunity to make his life successful. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Every human being is open to accept the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and make his life successful. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. This is our propaganda, to give everyone the facility of perfection of life. Now somebody may take or somebody may not take, but the basic principle of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to offer everyone the best facility. *Vipina: Prabhupāda, what about in the case where you have this ideal civilization with the brāhmaṇas instructing, but the brāhmaṇas don't agree? Just like in Bhagavad*-gītā, the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra, there were many brāhmaṇas, but they didn't agree. Prabhupāda: There were many brāhmaṇas? Who said? Vipina: Well there's..., well, there was, they were great kings, right? But they didn't agree on how..., who should have the kingdom? Arjuna and his relatives were in disagreement, great kṣatriya leaders. Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas, they are not brāhmaṇas. So when there is disagreement, there is fight. The battle will decide. That is always, at the present moment also. When there is disagreement between nation and nation, there is war declaration. That is natural. Vipina: This is Mr. Furman and his wife, Prabhupāda. Mr. Furman was the man who sold us this property. Mr. Furman: Glad to meet you, Your Divine Grace. My wife, Lynn. Prabhupāda: I'm very glad to see you. Mrs. Furman: We saw you on television today. Did you see? Was it Channel Four? The news has been on, it's on again at eleven. Very nice. Mr. Furman: It was a very good representation. Prabhupāda: So it is not a sectarian religious sentimental movement. It is a movement for giving real education, knowledge, to the people all over the world without any discrimination. So at least those who are intelligent class of men, they should join and study this movement and try to broadcast for the good of the human society. The basic principles I have already explained. Mr. Boyd: A statement was made some time ago in a conversation that somebody was looking for the *Gītā* without the Rāma. Could you explain what they might be meaning by that? Vipina: The *Gītā* without the... Mr. Boyd: The *Gītā* without the Rāma, that's all the statement was, that kind of an indication. Prabhupāda: *Gītā* without Rāma? Dr. Sharma: Perhaps they said *Gītā* without *Rāmāyaṇa*. (indistinct) said: Which also, Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa, includes Rāma. Prabhupāda: Yes, there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa and Rāma. Dr. Sharma: We do chant Rāma and Kṛṣṇa both. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has said in the *Gītā*, "I am Rāma." "I am Rāma." Hari-śauri: Who made the statement? *Mr. Boyd: I don't think it makes any difference who made the statement, it was just a comment that somebody wanted the Gītā without Rāma, which indicated to me that they didn't want the whole picture, they didn't want the total fact. But otherwise I couldn't put the two together, because Barbara must have taken the Bhagavad*-gītā back to Germany with her. *Dr. Sharma: Actually here is a one-to*-one translation. (Sanskrit) *Prabhupāda: The Tulasī dāsa's Rāmāyaṇa means Rāma*-carita. It is not Rāmāyaṇa. Rāma-carita Manas. He was devotee of Lord Rāmacandra. So as he was thinking of Lord Rāmacandra, he has written. So he was a learned scholar, brāhmaṇa, he must have read Bhagavad-gītā, Bhāgavatam. So all his translation is there on the basis of the śāstra, especially Bhāgavata and Bhagavad-gītā. You'll find many parallel passages. But Gītā is the summary of all Vedic literature, and it is spoken by the Personality of Godhead. So if we fix up our attention on the Bhagavad-gītā, then you can get advantage of all other śāstras. Vipina: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This is Mr. Kruzowsky. He's a philosophy teacher at the University of Maryland. He's very much interested in yoga and meditation. He invited us to speak earlier this year in his class, philosophy and religion. Devotee (3): And this is Emmet Holman(?) who teaches philosophy at George Mason University. He's also very interested in Indian philosophy. Prabhupāda: We had some talk with Professor Kotovsky in Moscow. Recently our representative went to Moscow for selling our book. They have highly appreciated our books. They have given in writing appreciation. Mr. Boyd: Your Grace, in regards to the organization of the movement, as such, I somehow am led to believe that there's no coordination between, should I say, your office, in regards to the karmī world, and the different temples. Are each..., does each temple operate by itself, or each division operate by itself? Prabhupāda: No, (indistinct). There is separate arrangement for management, but the idea and philosophy is the same. Ultimately, I am managing. I have my twenty secretaries, they are called GBC, they are assisting me to manage. Every GBC has got a certain number of temples to supervise, and ultimately, I supervise everything. Therefore I come occasionally, stay for few days to see how things are going on. I have got hundred temples, big, big temples, very nice. They have organized palatial buildings, but I cannot stay anywhere. (laughter) Mr. Boyd: That's the trouble with being boss. If you don't do it, nobody else will. Prabhupāda: As soon as I say, "Ah, it is very nice place," the time is over, they say "You please get out." (laughter and groans from devotees) Mr. Boyd: The school in Vṛndāvana, is this, I assume this is to be out there in the yard that they were clearing. When do you anticipate that will be built? *Prabhupāda: When they clear the land, we are going to construct a nice building for the school. As soon as it is done, then we will organize. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān... [SB 7.6.1]. From the very beginning of life, this Bhāgavata principle should be trained. That is perfect. Brahmacārī guru*-kule vasan dānto guror hitam [SB 7.12.1]. They should be trained up how to read at the house of the spiritual master. They should be trained up how to control the senses, dānta. Dānta means to practice how to control the senses. That is the difference between human being and animal. Animal cannot be trained up how to control their senses. That is not possible. But a human being can be trained up to control his senses. The yoga practice is meant for controlling the sense. Yoga-indriya-saṁyamī. That is the real yoga practice, not that I indulge in sense gratification as I like, and I become a yogi. This is all bogus. This is not yoga. Yoga means how to control the senses. Then I can concentrate my mind towards God realization and self-realization. If my senses are always disturbing, it is not possible to apply my mind for self-realization. That is not possible. Therefore the yoga practice, preliminary practice, is yama-niyama, controlling, niyama, under regulative principles. They are all described in the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā and other Vedic literature also. And the ultimate end of yoga practice is to think of Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of yoga. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. By meditation, he always thinks... This morning I was walking near the (indistinct) falls, I told, "This is the best place for practicing yoga." Yoga cannot be practiced in a fashionable way in a big city with (indistinct) meditation. That is not possible. He must be free from everything, and in a secluded place, alone, he should meditate on the Supreme Lord. That is real yoga. Controlling all the senses, all disturbances of the mind. Then it is perfect yoga. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. *Dr. Sharma: Swamiji, how different is this Chapter Six different from the Patañjali's yoga-śāstra and the rāja*-yoga? Prabhupāda: I don't think there is any. Dr. Sharma: There is no difference. *Prabhupāda: There is no fundamental difference. The same. Bhagavad*-gītā recommends that you should select a very secluded place in a solitary sacred place, you should make your āsana, sit down perpendicularly, don't close your eyes completely, half open, and concentrate on the tip of the nose. Everything is there. "And then think of Me." But Arjuna said, he said, "Oh, it is not possible." He was a frank gentleman. He was not a hypocrite. He said that "You are recommending all these yoga practice, it is not possible for me. I am a politician, I have to execute so many other businesses. I cannot go to the secluded place and sit down like this. So you are recommending me for yoga practice, but I say I cannot." But at the present moment, they have become more than Arjuna. (laughs) What Arjuna denied, they want to practice. This is another hypocrisy. Arjuna was not an ordinary man. He was so exalted that he could speak with Kṛṣṇa directly, and coming from royal family, and he's famous as great fighter. He refused, "I cannot do that." And we are taking to yoga practice. We have become more than Arjuna. This is going on. He does not think himself that "Arjuna is such a great personality, he thought himself to be incapable to practicing yoga, and we are making a show of yoga, paying somebody large amounts of money"? That's all. This is going on. What was achievable by practicing yoga, that was possible... You are going? Mr. Furman: Yes. Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda. Thank you for your kindness. Mr. Furman: Pleasure meeting you. *Prabhupāda: So in the Kali*-yuga, this age, so many difficulties, social, political, religious, cultural. So in Kali-yuga the practice of yoga is not possible. It was possible in the Satya-yuga. Kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇum. That is meditation. That was possible in the Satya-yuga. But in Kali-yuga you can do that, the same achievement you can have by hari-kīrtana, by chanting the holy name of the Lord. And factually you'll find our, these disciples, young boys and girls, they are not practicing in a secluded place the yoga system. They are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. And bring any yogi in the world and talk with them and see the comparison. Because that is fashion only; *it has no practical value. And here is practical value. Maybe one or two are successful, but mass of people, yoga practice is not recommended. That is not possible to be executed. But if you take to this hari*-kīrtana movement, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, very soon, kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati. You see practically. They are young boys and girls. At least, they have given up the four principles of sinful life and they are practicing, and they will improve. If they stick to the principles, they will improve. Dr. Sharma: According to yoga, a yogi becomes Can it be achieved by saṅkīrtana? *Prabhupāda: Yes, everything will be achieved. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, one becomes liberated from all sinful reaction of life, and he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet. That is the recommendation. Dr. Sharma: Can I ask one more question, Swamiji? In chanting, they also say later on, gaṅgāmāyī ki jaya, yamunāmāyī ki jaya. We also have in *Rāmāyaṇa* jato jaya sankara sata nama haya(?) (indistinct). Śaṅkara's kīrtana in saṅkīrtana. Some people, just like he was indicating, some people are more inclined to worship Rāma, saying Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma instead of Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa, both. Prabhupāda: There is no difference. Dr. Sharma: There is no difference. *Prabhupāda: Rāmādi*-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat [Bs. 5.39]. Rāma is avatāra and Kṛṣṇa is svayaṁ Bhagavān. There is no difference. Dr. Sharma: What would you classify as demigods, then? Prabhupāda: Demigod means just like you or me, ordinary living being, but they are very pious. On account of their piety they have got very good post. Just like janma... There are four: to get birth in very high, aristocratic family; to become very learned scholar; *to become beautiful in bodily feature. Janmaiśvarya-śruta*-śrī [SB 1.8.26]: high parentage, birth, to take birth in aristocratic family, in brāhmaṇa family, or very exalted royal family. This is janma. And śruta, to become very learned scholar. Janma, aiśvarya, to become very rich. Janmaiśvarya-śruta, śruta means education, and śrī, bodily beauty. These things are obtained on account of piety, pious activities. And just the opposite, low-class family, lowborn, no money, always poverty-stricken, no education, no bodily beauty, these are the results of impious activities. So the demigods means on account of their pious activities they get the situation in higher planet where the duration of life is ten thousands of years, and their one day is equal to our six months. Such ten thousands of years. Very beautiful body, facilities. There... The other day I was reading about the bodily construction of woman there. They are ever-young, the chest is very hard. (laughs) It is stated, yes. So such class of women is there, and aiśvarya, nandana-kānana, so many things. The roads are paved with pearls and jewels, not these pebbles. In the higher planetary system there is facility for higher standard of material comforts. So they get there birth and enjoy for ten thousand of years. But it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, kṣīṇe puṇye punar martya-lokaṁ viśanti. As soon as they spend up their resultant action of pious activities, then again drop down, kṣīṇe puṇye punar martya-lokaṁ viśanti. And again begins life from the grass. They fall down with rains, and then they grow as grass. Then evolutional life begins, from plant life to insect life, to insect life to bird's life. *[break] Again he can make choice whether he goes to higher planetary system or lower planetary system or back to Godhead. Yānti deva*-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.25]. He makes his choice. This is an opportunity. And the instruction is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, whether you want again go to the higher planetary system, demigod's residence, yānti deva-vratā devān. Or you want to remain here, bhūtejyāḥ. Or you want to go down. Or you want to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is your selection. Make your selection. So you can do. Either you go again to this human form of life. This opportunity is there. If you want you can go again to the higher planetary system, live there for so many years, and again when your resultant action of pious activities is finished, you again come and become a grass, and again begin... This is going on. But where is the science to understand how the process is going on? Therefore people are kept in ignorance. They have dismissed the idea, that there is no life after death, that's all. (guest leaving) There is no education. They are kept in ignorance. That is the problem, risky civilization, that people are kept in dark ignorance about the problems of the life. They do not know. They are struggling from the beginning of life, but they do not know what is the problem of life. Neither they have any information what are all these different planets, how they are being used, who are using them. They have no information. They are making a show of going to the moon planet, Mars planet, useless attempt. And presenting some photograph from Arizona. That is going on. Mr. Boyd: Can I ask a question? Am I to understand that women cannot go back to Godhead without being reincarnated to the male? Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. Who says that? Mr. Boyd: Well, for two and a half years I've been getting this from my daughter, that women cannot be reincarnated, and it didn't make sense to me. But I've asked questions and looked through the books as much as I could, and I haven't been able to find anything that said that. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That verse, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya [Bg. 9.32]. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa says that even women, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. There is no such thing. Anyone who is devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he or she will go back to home, back to Godhead. There is no such discrimination. Ordinarily it is supposed that woman is less intelligent than the man. That's a fact. But that is in bodily understanding. But in the spiritual platform, either woman or man or cat or dog or brāhmaṇa or... Everyone is spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. One who is learned, he sees everyone on the same level of spiritual platform. Guest (2): Your Grace? How can a person tell what his or her occupation or duty is supposed to be? *Prabhupāda: Yes, duty is already prescribed, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. You have read Bhagavad-gītā? So this is the duty. "You give up all other duties, you simply take to Me, surrender unto Me." This is duty. All other duties, they are temporary, and this is real duty, to surrender to God. If you think that "I am giving up all other duties, my family duties, my community duty, my national duty and so many..." Because you may think like that, that "Giving up all duties, I simply become Kṛṣṇa conscious...," as Arjuna was thinking. But Kṛṣṇa gives you assurance, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: [Bg. 18.66] "Don't worry, I shall give protection. If you think that by giving up all other duties you'll be sinful, so I give you assurance that I shall give you all protection." It is clearly stated. So this is the only duty, how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa and become His perfect devotee. This is the only duty. Dr. Sharma: What does it refer to, then, karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana? *Prabhupāda: That is when you do not know what is the ultimate duty. Because you are thinking that you are Indian, somebody is thinking he's America, somebody is thinking he's this or that. So there the advice is try to relinquish the result of your action. Don't be attached to the resultant action of your duty. The idea is to become detached, but because you cannot do it immediately, therefore the advice is, "All right, you remain in your so*-called duty, but don't be attached to the result of your actions." Then where the action will go? Suppose I am a businessman and I have earned, say, two million dollars. So mā phaleṣu kadācana, the result is already there, what shall I do it? Two millions of dollars, I shall throw it in the street? What do you think? Dr. Sharma: Not to be attached to it. *Prabhupāda: Not attached! It is attachment. "No attachment" means I have earned this two millions dollars, and I throw it away. That is no attachment. But that is also stated, yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi kuruṣva tat mad*-arpaṇam [Bg. 9.27], "Give that money to Me." Vāmanadeva. "Mahārāja Bali, you are so great personality. Give Me three feet of land." Then He covered the whole universe. So that is Kṛṣṇa's policy. Mā phaleṣu kadācana. Then what shall I do with the result? "Give Me." That is bhakti. He'll not immediately give it up, but Kṛṣṇa as a beggar, as Vāmanadeva, He's asking, "Give Me." If you are actually following Kṛṣṇa's instructions, you'll give it. The actual fact is that you become attached to Kṛṣṇa and detached to everything. But as you cannot do it immediately, this is a policy. The same policy, Vāmanadeva. He went to beg from Bali Mahārāja. So Bali Mahārāja was very munificent, he gave Him, "Yes, promise, whatever You want, I shall give." So He took everything. Dr. Sharma: In the Eighteenth Chapter they say sve sve karmaṇi. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: Sve sve karmaṇi. "A man can become perfect by doing his prescribed duty." *Prabhupāda: Yes, it's a fact. If you work as a brāhmaṇa, if you are thinking yourself as a brāhmaṇa, then you act as brāhmaṇa. You cannot act as a śūdra. As a brāhmaṇa you cannot accept anyone's service, then you become śūdra. You deviate from your own position. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they'll never accept anyone's service, only the śūdra. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra*-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. When you live at the mercy of others, this is called dog's business. Just like a dog lives at the mercy of the master. So it is strictly prohibited for the brāhmaṇas. Even in very difficult position, you can act as a kṣatriya, you can act as a vaiśya, but never accept the position of a dog, a śūdra. This is the injunction. Sve sve karmaṇi, you stick to your own business. If you claim as a brāhmaṇa, then you must act as a brāhmaṇa. Then you'll become successful. You cannot remain a brāhmaṇa and accept the business of a dog, that is not sve sve karmaṇi. So everything, what is stated there in the Bhagavad-gītā, that is perfect. People at the present moment, they are living at the mercy of others. That is dog's business. Therefore (in) the śāstra it is said kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is a śūdra. There is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśya. That is generally accepted. Because at the present moment education means to get some service. What is the value of that education? If you become dependent on others, then what is the value of this education? Therefore kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Everyone is a śūdra. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement says striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ: [Bg. 9.32] never mind, even if you are śūdra, take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll become perfect. Either you become woman or vaiśya or śūdra, it doesn't matter, or any other pāpa-yoni, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, te 'pi yānti parām [Bg. 9.32]. So this is the most liberal movement, that it doesn't matter what you are, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness then you become perfect. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. He's on the Brahman platform, above all these different modes of material nature. These brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, these are differences on the material platform. But when you come to the spiritual platform, there is no such difference. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. So we are trying to bring everyone to that spiritual platform. Therefore they cannot understand. They vision everything from materialistic point of view. They have no idea of spiritual life, therefore they misunderstand. But if we read thoroughly Bhagavad-gītā, then everything is clear. Sve sve karmaṇi means he must act according to his position. If he claims to become a brāhmaṇa, he must act as brāhmaṇa. Guṇa-karma. If you actually have the brāhmaṇa's qualification, you must act as a brāhmaṇa. Otherwise, what is the use of claiming that "I am a brāhmaṇa"? That is not accepted. Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda? The karmī is thinking that service to humanity is the real high platform because... Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the best service to humanity, to raise them from gross ignorance of animal life. This is best service. People are in gross ignorance of animal life, and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to raise him from that animal life to spiritual life, that is the best service. Guest (2): Prabhupāda? Is Kṛṣṇa right here in the room? Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't you see Kṛṣṇa there? (laughter) Guest (2): When I'm looking at the picture, is Kṛṣṇa right here? Prabhupāda: Whether you look or not look, He's there. If you have got some eye disease, you cannot see. But He is there. *Dr. Sharma: Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānām [Bg. 18.61]. *Prabhupāda: Hṛd*-deśe, He is within your heart. He is within atom. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. But you have no eyes to see Him. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. Therefore those who are on the first-class platform of devotional service, they see everywhere Kṛṣṇa. Sthāvara-jaṅgama dekhe, nā dekhe tāra mūrti, sarvatra haya nija iṣṭa-deva-sphūrti [Cc. Madhya 8.274]. He's seeing to the tree, but he's not seeing the tree; *he's seeing Kṛṣṇa. That is a different. Sthāvara*-jaṅgama dekhe, nā dekhe tāra mūrti, sarvatra sphūrti. He sees this tree, how it is Kṛṣṇa's energy, how it is acting. He studies all things as He has studied in the Bhagavad-gītā. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. Sadaiva, on account of his love... That is a very common sense. If you love somebody, wherever you are, you are seeing your lover, "When I shall meet him, where he is, what he is doing?" That was the gopīs' business. Kṛṣṇa was on the pasturing ground, and gopīs are crying at home that "Kṛṣṇa's foot is so soft, and He is walking in the fields barefooted. How many, these crags, pricking Him?" In this way thinking, thinking, they were crying. Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence. Prabhupāda: Many, there are many reasons. Devotee (4): I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature... Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how māyā works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how māyā works and how I might fall. Prabhupāda: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiraṇyakaśipu, Hiraṇyākṣa? They were Kṛṣṇa's doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiraṇyakaśipu or Hiraṇyākṣa? Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuṇṭha. They are Kṛṣṇa's personal associates, keeping the doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment. Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world. *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Kṛṣṇa, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuṇṭha at any moment. Icchā*-dveṣa samutthena sarge yānti parantapa. Find out this verse. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate." Prabhupāda: Purport. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking 'This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.' These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Prabhupāda: So even in the Vaikuṇṭha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Kṛṣṇa? Why not become Kṛṣṇa?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking. Vipina: Why doesn't Kṛṣṇa protect us from that desire? Prabhupāda: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this. Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that? Prabhupāda: That means you lose your independence. Vipina: And no love. Prabhupāda: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? (laughter) "You love me, otherwise I will kill you." (laughter) Is that love? So Kṛṣṇa does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, "You love me, otherwise I shall kill you." That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The... Why one is called lover, another is called rape? Vipina: But isn't it by force anyway? If we don't love Kṛṣṇa, we suffer. Prabhupāda: That is your business. You'll suffer. But that Kṛṣṇa does not force you. He says the real, "You love me, you'll be happy. If you don't love, you suffer." But that is your business. Vipina: So what is the choice? Prabhupāda: Choice is yours. If you are rascal, you don't make the choice, the best choice. You suffer. The rascals, they suffer. And intelligent men, they do not suffer. If you are intelligent, then Kṛṣṇa says that "You surrender to Me," you surrender, then you are intelligent. If you are rascal, then you reject and you suffer. When a father says to his rascal son, "My dear son, you just hear me, do like this, you'll be happy." If he does not do it, he'll suffer. There is no other alternative. Guest (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse? It's made on the level of a jailhouse, that, I've been told, the attitude of a jail instead of the attitude. Prabhupāda: Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore government has to construct a jailhouse. It is government's not desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Kṛṣṇa, for them there is material world, "All right, you remain here." Vipina: We also say that Kṛṣṇa is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Kṛṣṇa, why doesn't He let us really enjoy independent of Him? Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is māyā it is called. You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that's all. You are not enjoyer. Vipina: Then He's not fulfilling the desire. *Prabhupāda: No, you wanted to enjoy*-enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you'll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool. Vipina: Hm, enjoy at your risk. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is the fact. Vipina: Instead of under His protection, you enjoy at your risk. Prabhupāda: Therefore He advises, "Rascal, you give up all this enjoying spirit. You just surrender to Me, you'll be happy." But we don't accept it. Therefore sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the stool. That is going on. That is your risk. What is that? Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpāḥ? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra? Prabhupāda: Hm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṇu has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kuntī, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage." *Prabhupāda: Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva*-kilbiṣaiḥ. I think there you will find. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhuṅkte stena eva saḥ? No? Oh, bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpāḥ? "The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin." *Prabhupāda: Therefore in the Vedic literature, even those who are meat*-eaters, they are advised to sacrifice an animal before the deity Goddess Kālī, not purchased from the slaughterhouse. That is a kind of yajña, paśumedha-yajña. That is for low-class men. But still, because he's performing the yajña, he's less sinful. *Guest (3): Your Grace, may I ask a question? Before I asked about a man not knowing what his duty was, and you spoke of the highest duty of giving up all to Kṛṣṇa and becoming detached from the fruits of your action. But suppose the question is What shall I become*-a shopkeeper, a teacher, a carpenter? Prabhupāda: In any condition, you can surrender yourself to Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. Guest (3): Yes, but it sounds like it doesn't matter what I do as long as I dedicate my action to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Therefore you require spiritual master to guide you. Guest (3): So I cannot know myself. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Guest (3): And intuition does not help. Prabhupāda: Intuition is wrong. It is a practice. A thief thinks "I should steal." His intuition says. He's practiced to steal and intuition says "You steal." That is not guide. Intuition means that things which you are practiced, that's all. You are accustomed, that's all. Guest (3): How does a man find out what his duty is? *Prabhupāda: Duty is... The śāstra is there. Bhagavad*-gītā is there. The Bible is there. So follow. *Guest (3): Whether a man should be a shopkeeper or a teacher or a carpenter, the Bible won't tell me that, and the Bhagavad*-gītā won't tell me that. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā is there, the four divisions of human society, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So each one's duty is prescribed. Brāhmaṇa's duty, kṣatriya's duty, vaiśya's duty, śūdra's duty, brahmacārī's duty, everything is there. Guest (3): But then you said before that if I think I'm brahmacārī, then I should be a brahmacārī. If I become a śūdra, I act as a śūdra. Prabhupāda: Yes, you act as a brahmacārī, do your brahmacārī work, you'll be successful. Guest (3): But how do I know that I am thinking properly? *Prabhupāda: Therefore I say it is mentioned in the śāstra, brahmacārī guru*-kule vasan dānto guror hitam [SB 7.12.1]. If you want to be a lawyer, you must know the law. Without knowing the law, how you become a lawyer? Without knowing the engineering art, how you become engineer? So either you become a brahmacārī, gṛhastha or vānaprastha, sannyāsī, or anything, you must know what you are meant for. Without knowing, how you can become brahmacārī? Guest (3): I must know what I am meant for. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): But that's what my question is, how does one know. *Prabhupāda: Then you have to go to the... Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Just like we were discussing Sanātana Gosvāmī, he has gone to Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he said, "Sir, You have brought me from the entanglement of family life. Now tell me what is my duty." So that discussion is going on. So you should approach guru and take instruction from him what is, how to act. If you want to act as a brahmacārī, he'll give you direction, "You do this." If you want to act as a gṛhastha, he'll give you direction, "You do like this." That is wanted. The guru, the parents, the government, they should guide. Guest (3): But it says that if I follow another person's occupation, even if I do it better than my own occupation, that is not as good as following what I ought to be doing. *Prabhupāda: If you are unfit for that occupation, why should you imitate, waste your time? If you are, you are fit for becoming a carpenter, why should you imitate a brāhmaṇa? Better be expert carpenter and serve Kṛṣṇa with the result of carpentry work. Then there is perfection. Saṁsiddhir hari*-toṣaṇam. So suppose you are a carpenter. You earn something. So out of that your income, you offer something to Kṛṣṇa. If, even you are poor man, you can bring some fruit or flower to Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa, I am poor man, I can't give You anything more. But I have secured this fruit and flower. Kindly accept it." Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati tad aham aśnāmi [Bg. 9.26]. So where is the difficulty? Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. You remain a carpenter, but you worship Kṛṣṇa. That is not a very difficult job, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. Guest (3): But here in this country we have choices. *Prabhupāda: In this country or that country, there is no such distinction. This patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam, any country you can get it. You cannot say in America there is no patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam, in India only. No. Everywhere it is available. Therefore this general prescription is there. Even Kṛṣṇa does not say Gaṅgā*-jala. Because Gaṅgā, if you say Gaṅgā-jala, that is available in India. He says toyam, any jala, any water. Because any water, as soon as touches the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, it becomes Gaṅgā. Why Gaṅgā is so adored? Because it is coming from the toes of Kṛṣṇa. So any water touching Kṛṣṇa's toes, that becomes Gaṅgā. Vipina: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if we're born each with a qualification, how is this qualification developed in our early years? *Prabhupāda: There is no question of developing any particular qualification. Whatever qualification you are, if you agree to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the best qualification. It doesn't matter what material qualification you have. It doesn't matter. You simply acquire this qualification, that "From this day I fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa." That everyone can do. Is there any difficulty? Simply he must agree, this qualification. That depends on him, agree or not agree. If you agree, then you become qualified. If you don't agree, you remain disqualified. So that is intelligence. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births of struggle, one who is fully in knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān. Not the foolish. Foolish person cannot. But vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. You can become immediately mahātmā by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. That is intelligence. Why shall I wait for many many births to become a mahātmā? Let me surrender immediately and become a mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya*-manasaḥ [Bg. 9.13]-chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, become a mahātmā. It is not very difficult. You can become mahātmā immediately, within a second. But the disease is that you'll not agree to Kṛṣṇa. That is the dangerous disease. Dr. Sharma: When you say surrender, it means surrender of fruits of the action? Prabhupāda: No, surrender your life. That includes surrender of fruits and everything. Surrender your life. Dr. Sharma: Surrender He uses many places, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26], karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but that is not surrender. When you keep yourself in your so*-called duty, that recommendation is there. But when you fully surrender, there is no more karma, everything is bhakti. And because you do not surrender, therefore He is recommending that you do your karma like this. But as soon as you surrender, you are above karma. Sa guṇān sama-tītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya, you are brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. So long you do not surrender, He is linking your activities with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, "You do like this." Then one day you'll be able to surrender. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja, he wanted the kingdom better than his father, grandfather. So he had to undergo so much severe austerities. He got Kṛṣṇa. But when he got Kṛṣṇa, he said svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varam, "I don't want any benediction." So this position you can attain any moment, "My Lord, I surrender unto You. I don't want anything from You. Kindly give me shelter at Your lotus feet." This is the result of greatest tapasya. And Kṛṣṇa gives you protection. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. So that is the highest perfection of life, to surrender to God without any reservations. Then life is perfect. Vipina: Prabhupāda, even if a person is not willing to hear spiritual knowledge, when you come and speak, a person, you know, can develop faith in Kṛṣṇa or God. So why doesn't Kṛṣṇa come and make it easy? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has already come. What I am speaking? Kṛṣṇa is there. But you have no eyes to see. Vipina: All right, but we don't have any eyes, someone may not have eyes to see who you are, may not be willing, but when you come... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's word are not different. If you find it different, then you have no eyes to see. Kṛṣṇa is absolute. When I quote Kṛṣṇa's word, that means Kṛṣṇa. Vipina: But everyone sees it as different. *Prabhupāda: Because he is a rascal. He has to become a sane man, then he will see. It requires tapasya. It is not so easy. That is called sahajiyā. Why you want such exalted things so easily? Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's words, they are the same. Vāco vācaḥ.(?) The same thing. Why you are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? If Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa is not the same, then what is the use of wasting time? Hm? What is that? Abhinnatvān nāma*-nāminoḥ. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaś? Prabhupāda: Ah, *This is the realization of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, when you understand that nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaḥ, this name, Kṛṣṇa, is Kṛṣṇa. That is the perfection of chanting. Nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaś caitanya*-rasa-vigrahaḥ. Full representation or full Kṛṣṇa. Pūrṇaḥ śuddho nitya-mukto 'bhinnatvāt, Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's anything. Just like we are worshiping Kṛṣṇa. If you think this is a statue of Kṛṣṇa, it is different from Kṛṣṇa, then you are not worshiping properly. He is Kṛṣṇa. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-mati, these are instructions. So anyway, we may be in the imperfect stage of devotional service, but if you follow the instruction, then gradually you come to the perfectional stage. There is no hopelessness. Continue. It is not that immediately one becomes perfect. But if you continue with the process, then you'll become perfect. *Guest (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was twenty*-seven years old and I learned about God through Jesus. I was twenty-seven. For thirty-five years I thought I had a relation with... [break] ...and through your knowledge that you are writing. I'm a servant of the government right now, and will it take more love of Kṛṣṇa for me to be devotee, or what...? Prabhupāda: No, you can become a devotee even if you are a government servant. It does not hamper. Guest (2): So I can hear and I can chant and I can pray and I can serve and I can do all those and still... Prabhupāda: You become a devotee. Any material condition does not hamper your devotional life. Ahaituky apratihatā. If any condition of life you remain a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, that is success. Devotee (4): Must initiation be there, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Initiation must be there. Otherwise, how you'll be guided? But it is not necessary, but if you can cent percent engagement in Kṛṣṇa, that is better. Just like Sanātana Gosvāmī, he was a minister, so he resigned and became cent percent servitor of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. But if it is not possible, it does not hamper. Guest (2): But I can retire in twenty days, and if that is possible, then I can make one more good step. Prabhupāda: Yes, oh, yes. So twenty days you are going. That means compulsory retirement? Guest (2): No, my... I can retire or not retire. I can work until eight more years as a servant of the government. And at the same time... Prabhupāda: Don't retire sentimentally. Yes, don't retire. Guest (2): But through Kṛṣṇa's love I can retire... Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but not sentimentally. Woman guest (2): Could you... Do you think you could explain to me about the Deities and how it's different from idol worship? Because no one has been able to explain that to my understanding. Prabhupāda: Idol means your imagination. And Deity is not imaginary. Deity is installed by the authorized person and it is worshiped according to authorized methods. So it is not idol. Idol worship, you imagine something and, some doll or idol, and do in your own way, that is idol worship. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: She's saying but it's manufactured, it's made, graven. *Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. But it is made according to the Vedic principles. Just like in the Vedas, Kṛṣṇa's form is described, veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda*-dalāyatākṣam [Bs. 5.30]. Kṛṣṇa is playing on His flute, veṇuṁ kvaṇantam. His eyes are like the petals of the lotus flower. So if you follow the description, then it is coming from the Vedic literature or Vedic knowledge. It is not that an artistic way of imagining some idol, the eyes are like this and He must play flute. It is not like that. Woman guest (2): That's because it came from scriptures instead of from men's minds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is authorized. When you take anything from the statute, book, that is law. And if you manufacture something, that is not law. Just like, I'll give you one very good example. Just like in your front of your house there is U.S. letterbox. So another man, he sees that the box is in front of his house, "Why shall I go so far? Let me manufacture a box here." So he's posting. After six months, he'll see all these letters are lying there. (laughter) And one who is posting that authorized box, his letter is going to thousands and thousands of miles away. So you cannot imitate. If you imitate U.S. letterbox in front of your house and post your letters, it will never go, it will remain there. Guest (4): Your Grace? I don't understand how it can be all right for a person to lie, even if he is a shopkeeper or a diplomat. Prabhupāda: But you cannot do business without speaking lies; you have to do it. What can be done? *Guest (4): You can do business without speaking lies*-you just don't make so much money. *Prabhupāda: That is recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā. What is that? Sa-doṣam api na tyajet [Bg. 18.48]. Even your profession is infected with so many faults, you don't agree, don't give it up. He's giving the example: the fire is so nice, purify, still there is smoke. So in the material world, whatever you do, there will be some fault. If you want faultless action, that is not possible. Therefore we cannot give up your occupational duty even there are some faults. Sa-doṣam api na tyajet. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly." *Prabhupāda: No, another, sa*-doṣam api na tyajet [Bg. 18.48]. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sa*-doṣam api na tyajet. Prabhupāda: Hm, what is that verse? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Saha*-jaṁ karma kaunteya. *Prabhupāda: Ah, saha*-jaṁ karma kaunteya. You are carpenter, do it. Don't try to become a goldsmith, because you cannot do that. Remain a carpenter. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda: Anything you do, there is some fault. Even fire, there is smoke. Better in a particular type of occupation in which you are expert, do that, but with the result you serve Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Sharma: Swamiji, it says also that having come to the material world-I have forgotten the verse*-you cannot be without action, He says to Arjuna. Prabhupāda: Material world means you must act, then you can live. Otherwise you will die. Dr. Sharma: Also since every action has some fault, we will be always doing some fault. Prabhupāda: Yes, so in spite of fault, you must act. Dr. Sharma: There are two choices, either to surrender to God... Prabhupāda: Surrender to God, there is no fault. That is the highest faultless action. And so long you do not surrender, anything we do there is fault. Anything you eat... That is stated: *Even if you prepare vegetable, not meat, still you are sinful. It is not that those who are meat*-eaters, they are only sinful, and you are eating vegetable, you are not sinful, no. Anything you cook for yourself without being offered to the Deity or Kṛṣṇa, you are sinful. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt. Now, pacanti, you may do whatever you like to eat, but if it is not prasādam, then you are sinful. It is not the question of... Sometimes they mistake the vegetable is good, meat is not good. May be, comparative. But either vegetable or meat, if you simply cook it for your tongue's satisfaction, then it is sinful. And if you offer to Kṛṣṇa, maybe only little patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26], not very gorgeous, palatable dishes, and if you eat that, then bhuñjate, again. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ, he becomes free from all sinful actions. As there is sin in cutting the throat of an animal, similarly, there is sin in destroying a vegetable. Maybe more or less sinful. But it is sinful. Mr. Boyd: We can even offer a drink of water to Kṛṣṇa before we drink it, can't we? Prabhupāda: Yes, you can think of Kṛṣṇa. That is stated. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Raso 'ham apsu? *Prabhupāda: Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ [Bg. 7.8]. When you drink water, you drink water for some taste, nice taste to quench your thirst. So that taste is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. Apsu does not mean only water. Suppose you are drinking, so you are getting some pleasure by the taste of the drinking, and if you think that this taste is Kṛṣṇa, then gradually you'll give up this drinking. Because you'll be purified by thinking of Kṛṣṇa. So some way or other think of Kṛṣṇa and your life is successful. Yena tena prakāreṇa manaḥ kṛṣṇe niveśayet. So the process is given, you can think of Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours if you practice. Who can avoid drinking water? At least twice, thrice, we drink water, and if we think the taste is Kṛṣṇa... Prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. Who can avoid seeing the sunshine and moonshine? As soon as you see the sunshine and the moonshine, if we think "Here is Kṛṣṇa," the sunshine is Kṛṣṇa. So this thinking of Kṛṣṇa, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā [Bg. 6.47]. He is first-class yogi who is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa in every step of life. That is first-class yogi. He does not see anything except Kṛṣṇa. And the process is there. If we adopt, we can think of Kṛṣṇa. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. It is not difficult, simply it requires practice. (sound of thunder) Śabdaḥ khe pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu. Now this sound in the sky, that is recommended, that the sound in the sky, Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the sound." So we can think of Kṛṣṇa as soon as there is sound. Not only this sound, when the airplane goes, drurururururu, that is also Kṛṣṇa. The practice. It doesn't require much learning, much education, simply take the words of Kṛṣṇa and he becomes a vast learned person. Kṛṣṇa is giving all the instruction. (sound of thunder) And actually, that is Kṛṣṇa. You cannot create such sound. It is Kṛṣṇa's management that there is sound while the cloud is rolling by air. Guest (3): Prabhupāda, here in the Western world, we're so caught up in sense enjoyment. *Prabhupāda: We do not speak of Western world or Eastern world, we speak for all world. What we are speaking, that is for all world, not Western or Eastern. There is no such thing in the teachings of Kṛṣṇa. He never says that it is meant for the Eastern or Western. He says sarva*-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ [Bg. 14.4]. For everyone. *Guest (4): Your Grace, how is it that the devotees who run the great temple of Jagannātha refuse to allow foreigners and certain low*-caste people, when this was the favorite place of Lord Caitanya, who, like you say, advocated that it should be taught in every town and village? Prabhupāda: Jagannātha Purī? Guest (4): Are these administrators fallen? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's asking why can't your disciples from the West in particular, who are low*-class particular people, like the Mohammedans, as traditional, they are not allowed in the Jagannātha Purī temple. Prabhupāda: That is their fault. They should not have done so. That is their, what is called? Sectarian prejudice. Guest (4): Was that the policy when Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura ran the temple? I understand that he at one time was the main administrator. (loud crashing of thunder) *Prabhupāda: So you don't take simply Jagannātha temple. There are many other temples, they allow. It is a particular management body, they do not allow. But that is not the sanction of the śāstra. That is not the sanction. Suppose in your private house you make some private law. That is your business. But actually temple is open for everyone. That is stated. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. Even one is born of low-grade family, he can accept. There is no injunction. That is śāstra. But there are rascals who do not follow. They have their own imagination. That is another thing. Kṛṣṇa never said that "Only the brāhmaṇas or Indians or Hindus can take shelter of Me." Kṛṣṇa never said. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ, whatever he may be. There is no restriction. Just like Ganges water, anyone can take bath. It is not that only a particular person or particular community can take bath. Anyone can take, and he becomes purified. There is an example, na hi harate jyotsnā candraś caṇḍāla veśmani.(?) When there is moonlight, there is no discrimination that here is a bhaṅgi's house, caṇḍāla's house, there should be no moonshine. The moonshine is open in the palace of the king or in the house of a caṇḍāla, na hi harate jyotsnā candraś caṇḍāla veśmani. So Kṛṣṇa's mercy is for everyone. It is not restricted to a certain community or class of people, no. Anyone can take advantage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And that is, practically they are doing. Therefore in India, so they say that I am killing Hindu dharma, the Māyāvādīs, that Bhaktivedanta Swami hindu-dharma ka naṣṭa. This is their... Dr. Sharma: That is not true. Prabhupāda: But they are saying like that. This Karpathadaji(?) and others, they are against me. *Dr. Sharma: Mūḍha*-mate. Prabhupāda: But they are big, big men. What can be done? Here also Christians are not very happy also. And there, Hindus are not happy. So where shall I go? (laughter) I cannot stay here, neither in India. This is my position. Neither in my temple. This is my position. Nor India, nor America, nor Europe, nor any place. So nārada muni bhajaya vīṇā. (laughter) *Dr. Sharma: Sarva*-bhūtānām. Prabhupāda: No, I have no, I mean to say, grudge against. If Kṛṣṇa wants... In old age I was living a retired life in Vṛndāvana. He asked me "Get out, go to America." So I came. At the age of seventy years, actually nobody goes out of home. But Kṛṣṇa asked me, "Get out and go." So I came. And although I have got the best temple in Vṛndāvana, I cannot live there. But a fighting soldier is honored by the government. He maybe dies, he is recognized by the government, "Here is a soldier, laid down his life by fighting." So we prefer that life. We shall die fighting with māyā. Devotees: Jaya. Dr. Sharma: It is said in śāstra that it is better to go out and find salvation for others than to find salvation for yourself. Prabhupāda: One who seeks salvation for others, he's already salvation. Devotees: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, how he can arrange salvation for others? So he hasn't got to seek for salvation. Dr. Sharma: How these devotees are finding salvation for others? Prabhupāda: That means they are already in the platform of salvation. Dr. Sharma: Through them, you are working for the salvation of others. *Prabhupāda: Janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. That is the injunction, that first of all you become perfect, then try to make others perfect. So anyone is actually trying to do perfection for others, he is already perfect. Dr. Sharma: The devotees are working for the salvation for everyone. *Prabhupāda: He's already perfect. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. The one who's trying for others' salvation... That is a devotee's business. Ordinary man cannot do it. Because he's doing that, it is to be understood that he's already on the platform of... Because salvation means to remain his own position. Muktir hitvānyathā-rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. Svarūpa is to serve God. So if one is serving on behalf of God, then he's in svarūpa, mukti. Others are acting for his own benefit, but a devotee is acting for others' benefit. Therefore he's already on the platform of liberation. Guest (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, should I have resigned my membership with the Christian organization? Should I have? I did. Could I serve Kṛṣṇa just as well and also through a Christian? I don't see how I could. Prabhupāda: No, we don't say like that. (laughs) Christian, actually one who is Christian, he's as good as Vaiṣṇava. A Christian means he recognizes God is great. So we also accept God is great. Where is the difference? God is great in all circumstances. So if anyone accepts God is great, that is perfect. Guest (2): That's what the church board said to me. They said, "You believe in Kṛṣṇa, we believe in God. Why do you go? What's superior?" I feel that your knowledge is superior. Prabhupāda: The thing is that sometimes we Indians come to Western country for better education. The university in India or the university in U.S. or in Europe is the same, but why does he go after Indian university education to foreign university? Why does he go? Guest (2): Superior. Prabhupāda: That's it. God is there, the dictionary is there. Sometimes pocket dictionary, sometimes big national encyclopedia dictionary. The Christians, they have no idea what is God. They believe in God, but if you ask them what is God, who is God, they cannot say. But we can say. That is the difference. Woman guest (2): It is not as good. Prabhupāda: So if you want more knowledge about God, then you must come to Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): That's how I believe. Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman guest (2): Is it not as good to serve God as a Christian in a church? Prabhupāda: That is have already explained, that you serve God in any position, but if you want to know about God more, then you have to come here. Now ask any Christian what is God, who is God, what is His form, what He is doing. Can he answer? Nobody can answer. He knows God is great. How great He is, who is that God, they cannot answer. To some extent it is all right, but if you want to know full extent, then you have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Two plus two is equal to four" is mathematics, but if you want to know higher mathematics, you have to go some higher college. "Two plus two" is also mathematics, is it not? Everyone knows two plus two equal to four. So when you go to higher university, that "two plus two" does not change, but you know more about it. Because one has gone to higher university, the previous education, "two plus two," has changed, it is not that. But as a Christian you understand God is great, "two plus two," but how He is great, that you have to learn in the *Vedas*. That is real education. Because you do not know how He is great, therefore you do so many sinful activities. Otherwise, how it is possible to maintain slaughterhouse? Christian doctrine says "Thou shall not kill." But he does not understand; therefore his business has become to kill only. This is the defect. Why you are disobeying the orders of Christ, "Thou shall not kill"? Because you do not understand him properly. Guest (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we don't eat meat in the... Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say... Guest (2): We didn't know why we didn't. But now I know why, because the animal is a living entity. Prabhupāda: No, God says "Everyone is My son." Vipina: In the Bible, they don't accept that the animals and certain living entities are eternal, are going to go back to God. *Prabhupāda: They may believe, but that is another thing. You may believe something blindly. Come to philosophy, come to science. Because you believe something, it is a fact*-that is not... Vipina: But they base that belief on their scripture. Prabhupāda: What is that? Vipina: The Bible. Prabhupāda: No, what is that belief? Vipina: Can you explain it? That there are certain people, they'll be resurrected from the dead at the time of the coming of the Lord and others will not, or something? Guest (2): Well, from my knowledge, I never knew that anyone but the human being would be resurrected. Now that's a point where the animal will be resurrected. I didn't know that. Prabhupāda: So what is that? Hari-śauri: They think that transmigration only applies to human beings. Or in fact they don't even accept transmigration. They think that you've just got one lifetime. Prabhupāda: Why? Transmigration for everyone. The Darwin's theory, evolution, it is like that, transmigration. The living soul is changing bodies, that's a fact. We can experience in our own life. The child is changing body to boyhood. The boy is changing his body to youthhood. So therefore it's a fact. The living entity is there within the body, and the body is changed. This simple truth they cannot understand. When a child grows up to become a boy, so what is the change? The change is body. But everyone knows the same child has become boy. Is it not? What do you think? Guest (2): Well, when you leave this planet you go to sleep. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is another thing. Studying, that a child is grown to become a boy, he has changed his body. Does it mean the living entity who was in the child's body is different from the living entity within the boy? Guest (2): No difference. Prabhupāda: Therefore it is a fact that the living entity is eternal and the body is changed. So where is the difficulty to understand this? Vipina: They can understand it, but their scripture doesn't accept reincarnation. Prabhupāda: Therefore you should give up your philosophy and science. That "Because my scripture does not allow me to become educated, I shall remain a fool." (laughter) What is this? Guest (2): A beautiful example is where a caterpillar will be, a cocoon will form over a caterpillar, and when the cocoon breaks, it's a butterfly. Prabhupāda: That's all right, transmigration. Guest (2): The living entity changed bodies. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is common sense. If they cannot understand this commonsense affair, then how they are educated? Dr. Sharma: Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Common sense. And we are practically experiencing. When the child has grown to become a young man, the mother does not cry, "Oh, my child is gone." She knows, she knows that "Here is my child. Simply he has changed his body." So this is a fact, that we are changing bodies but we are eternal. This is the conclusion. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. So unless one is properly educated, where is the talk of advancing? So this is the beginning of spiritual education, to understand that the living entity is eternal and the body is changing. And then next question will be that if the body is changing, then this body will be changed, so after my death what kind of body I am going to accept? That is education. That is education. And if I remain blind, I do not care, and next life I become a dog, then what is the value of my present education? In spite of all education, next life I am going to become a dog or tree, then what is the value of my education? That education is not. Throughout the whole world perhaps we are giving this education. Throughout the whole world, find out any institution or university where this education is given. No. Simply big, big talks. And you talk something nonsense and take laureate, Nobel Laureate. That's all. It is going on. Somebody is talking nonsense that life is produced from matter, from chemicals, and if we challenge, "All right, combine some matter in egg form and bring life," that rascal will say, "No, it will take millions of years." And if the bird is giving life in five days, why you are taking doctorate title? Give the chicken doctorate title. The rascals are simply bluffing the people. This is going on in the name of education. Can anyone produce life by a combination of chemicals? And these rascals are advertising. We challenge, "All right, not very big thing. Egg, you can see there is some white substance and yellow substance, and you are very big scientist, you find out what are the chemicals and combine it and put it under legs of the chicken or in the incubator and bring life. Otherwise, why you are talking nonsense and cheating people?" Not only cheating people, people are becoming godless. Everything is science. And the science is this, cheating, that life can be produced by chemicals. Dr. Sharma: The problem is the definition of life. It has not yet been defined, and the definition of life accepted by them is not the real definition of life. Prabhupāda: The definition of life they have given, resistance. If you want to come to kill me, I resist you. That is life. Everyone knows it. Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's a quarter to nine. Prabhupāda: That is life. If I want to cut this table it will not resist. But if you want to kill me, I'll resist. That is life. Where is the difficulty? Dr. Sharma: No, the way we understand, there is no difficulty. The way scientists understand there is a lot of difficulty. Prabhupāda: What is that scientist? What is their definition? What do they say? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Life is a..., they say the question "What is life?" you should not inquire. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Oh, that is... You keep yourself in darkness. You remain fool. That is scientific. So long you remain a rascal, it is scientific. This is their... Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say it is unscientific question. Prabhupāda: And because they cannot answer you, bobā śatru naya. In Bengali, if one is dumb, he has no enemy, but he cannot speak anything. Tāvac śobhate mūrkha yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate mūrkha (?)(Bengali) So mūrkha, you remain mūrkha, then that is scientific. Dr. Sharma: Kapila has said (Sanskrit). Prabhupāda: So don't ask for life, that is scientific. Do you think it is all right? Dr. Sharma: No, as a scientist, I don't believe that. Prabhupāda: Then this is going on. They cannot do anything, and still they are drawing high salary. Especially when they say that life is made of chemicals and they cannot experimentally prove it. How bluffing it is. We say a simple thing, that "Don't talk of big, big life. You just produce from the egg, because egg you require so many chicken to cut their throat. So produce it from chemicals." Why do they not do it? Is anyone to answer this? If life is chemical combination, you see in the egg there is some white substance, some yellow substance, so you analyze and find out what are the chemicals and combine it and color it yellow and pack up in a cellulose cover, and then put it, bring life. Why they cannot do it? Where is the science? Simply talking big, big words? What do you think? Am I right or wrong? Mr. Boyd: What do I think? Well, it's very difficult at this particular time. It hasn't been done yet; it's been claimed, as you say. Yet we as individuals request them to do that, for some reason. Prabhupāda: Yes, unless they do that, what is the use? What is the use of your big, big talking? Vipina: He's thinking that sometime they'll do it in the future. Prabhupāda: Therefore he should not become scientist. The chicken is doing it within five days. (laughter) You transfer your doctorate, laureate to the chicken. You are cheating others. Give the title to the chicken. Guest (2): If and when Kṛṣṇa wants the scientists to come up with the answer, then is when, only when they'll have the answer. *Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa has already given to the chicken. (laughter) He's so unfortunate that Kṛṣṇa is not giving him the intelligence. He's so unfortunate. But the fortunate chicken has already got the intelligence. So at least the chicken is fortunate than these so*-called scientists. That is our conclusion. He's so unfortunate that he doesn't get the fortune of the chicken. Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. He's a mūḍha, rascal. That's all. He's claiming something which is impossible. That is mūḍha. If somebody, if a child, sometimes childish nature, "Mother, give me that moon." It is possible mother can give the moon to the child? So mother cheats him. She gives him a mirror, "You see, here is a mirror, moon here." That's all. But is that moon? So a child may be satisfied with this class of moon, but one who is sane man, his father will not be satisfied. It is impossible. We give this challenge to any scientist, that "You are unnecessarily, uselessly working to produce life from chemicals." That is our challenge. "You cannot do it." (Hindi) So we challenge the so-called scientists that "You rascal, you cannot do it." It is not possible. [break] *Mr. Boyd: ...this is ninety*-six cents, so why put it back? Prabhupāda: That's all right, this is one way of studying, but when you have studied the chemicals, combine them and bring a human life. Science means observation and experiment. Simply observing, analyzing that it is a combination of chemi..., that is not perfect science. When you... This is theory. When you practically bring into action, that is called practical... What is called? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Experimentation? Prabhupāda: No, no, in science there are two con..., theoretical and practical. So theoretical knowledge is no perfect. When you bring it in practical action, then it is science. In the scientific laboratory, they do not simply theorize; they test it in the laboratory. That is science. If you cannot test it by combination of the chemicals which you have analyzed in your..., then it is failure, is it not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Here is a scientist. You have not studied properly. That is defect. So why defective knowledge you are declaring as knowledge? That is cheating. When you have perfect knowledge, then you declare. That is science. Mr. Boyd: Then you advocate that Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be practiced in every action that you take. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is practice. Abhyāsa*-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā [Bg. 8.8]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Scientists at the present time, they say like this because their knowledge is simply illusion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Real knowledge is covered. Prabhupāda: Just like this planetary system. So many planets are there. They do not know anything. And they are going to the Mars. They are going to the moon. All bluff. Two things unsolved. They do not know what is life and they do not know what are these planetary system. And still, they are speaking on these two subjects as authority. That is bluff. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we conclude that without understanding the existence of God, these two problems can never be answered. Prabhupāda: Never be. You hear from God; then you have got perfect knowledge. And if you want to become scientist more than God, then you'll never know it. But their real propaganda is "There is no God." That is their real propaganda. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the root cause of this illusion. Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to prove "There is no God. Everything is science." However rascaldom it may be, "It is everything." But we are preaching about God. How we can tolerate? We must expose them. That is our business. Mr. Boyd: There's a saying that's printed on a piece of stationery I get from one of my supply houses of a particular piece of equipment this man designs and sells. And on the bottom he indicates, "Somebody has to lead." Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is a commonsense philosophy, that the earth is there, everything is coming out of earth. As mother is giving birth to so many children, similarly the earth is giving birth to so many children. So the children are there, the mother is there, and where is the father? But these rascals, they say "Without father." Is it possible for the mother to give children without father? Mr. Boyd: Not legally. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Legally or illegally, there must be some father. Mr. Boyd: I realize that. Prabhupāda: Illegally or legally, without connection with the father there is no question of children. Mr. Boyd: But even this is being done artificially nowadays. Prabhupāda: But artificially means that you accept the principle. So therefore we say that here is mother, land, and here is children, the plants, trees, birds, beasts, human beings. They are all coming from the earth. So mother is there, and the children are there. Then where is the father? You cannot say, "No, without father it has come." That is not possible. Then you are talking foolish. There must be father. This is conclusion. So how you can deny God? God is accepted in every religion as the supreme father or something like that, great. And God is there. But they say "Automatically coming" and big, big words. How do they explain? How things are coming from the earth, so many plants? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is by chance. *Prabhupāda: "By chance," just see. Is that explanation? Hmm? If one head is bald*-headed, why by chance it does not come again, hair? And these plants and creepers are coming by chance, just see. We have to accept this explanation? (aside:) You sit down. That is for the outsider. So this is explanation by the scientist, "By chance." Just see. How fools they are. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Chance is their instrument of explanation. Prabhupāda: Just see how they are befooling persons. The law is cause and effect. Nothing is chance. There is cause, and there is effect. It is saying the same thing, that "This girl has produced a child by chance." It is not possible. Any sane man knows that she had connection with man, either legally or illegally. It is not chance. So there can... Nothing can happen as chance. That is imperfect knowledge. Wash out. But we know, There is no question of chance. There is cause. So all right, thank you very much. (end) *Interview and Conversation-*-July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C. Vṛṣākapi: She reports on a religious, er... And this is Channel 4, TV. (setting up cameras, etc.) Interviewer: We'd like to get a, first of all a general statement from you about the state of the world and the state of your movement in it... Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: ...at this time. Prabhupāda: This is a spiritual movement, and at the present moment people are more interested with material improvement, but our real interest is... Not only our, every human being's interest should be for spiritual upliftment. Just like our body is there, and within the body I am the spirit soul, also I am there. So we are taking care of the body but not of the spirit soul. So the nature's law is that a spirit soul, changing in different position of the body, as we experience in this life, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, similarly, after giving up this body, we'll have to accept another body, and there are 8,400,000 different forms of body. We do not know what kind of body we are going to accept according to our activities and mentality. At the time of death the mentality will ascertain what kind of body we are going to get next. So these things are completely not discussed, neither they have any knowledge. So at the present moment the human civilization is a very risky civilization, so in order to save them from this state of ignorance, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential. It is not a sectarian religious movement, faith or sentiment. It is actually scientific movement. Here are many scientists present. They are also taking very seriously about this movement. So we invite all important men to contact us and try to understand the basic principle of this movement, how to elevate the human society to the proper standard of life and become peaceful in this life as well as in the next life. Interviewer: Do you think mankind is making some improvement? Prabhupāda: No. Materially they may be doing some improvement, but that is not spiritually important. Just like I give sometimes this example: just like a dog, animal, is jumping with four legs on the street, and we are going fast with four wheels, so that does not make any difference. The difference is the dog cannot understand about his spiritual identity. A man can understand if he's properly trained up. If the man is denied that facility, then he remains in the ignorance of an animal like cats and dogs. Janice Johnson: I'd like to know, this is your first visit to Washington? Is that right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Janice Johnson: Who have you visited with while you've been here? Have you stayed here, or have you gone out and...? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am in the Western country for the last ten years, sometimes Europe, sometimes America. I have got more than one hundred temples all over the world, so I go and visit and instruct my disciples about this movement. Janice Johnson: But you indicated in..., before you came here, that you were interested in meeting some leaders in the city. Have you met any of them? Prabhupāda: Leaders? Hari-śauri: She's wondering whether you met with any political leaders. Prabhupāda: No. I have no interest with the political leaders because it is not a political movement. It is spiritual movement. Janice Johnson: Another question I have is, if materialism is not so important as the... Prabhupāda: No, it is important, but not at the sacrifice of spiritual understanding. Janice Johnson: Well, what I was interested in is why is it necessary to live in such lavish situation as is shown here? Prabhupāda: Lavish? What do you mean by lavish? Janice Johnson: Well, I think this is a rather elegant, lavish kind of room. Hari-śauri: She's referring to your quarters are very nicely furnished. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is for you, because you cannot sit down cross*-legged, we have arranged this couch for you. (laughter) If it is not lavishly decorated, you'll refuse to come here. Janice Johnson: Why is it necessary to live in such comfort as this for the spiritual...? *Prabhupāda: No, we can live on the street, but you cannot come and see on the street. For you we have arranged. That is the... We can live underneath a tree. That is a... But that does not make any difference. Our point is that you may live materially comfortably*-there is no harm-but if you forget your spiritual identity, then you'll remain like animal. Just like sometimes a cat or dog is also allowed to sit on the couch, but that does not mean he has become a human being. He remains a cat and dog because the consciousness is lacking of a human being. In this seat there may be some bugs. So the bug is also living on this couch, but he has no understanding. Interviewer: What is your opinion of what this movement should be doing in terms of world activities and world affairs that it isn't doing now? Are there some new areas that you may try to influence? Prabhupāda: No, we are pushing on this movement all over the world. It is not that this particular place is important, but our interest is that Western people... They are so intelligent. They are very systematically making improvement in material condition of life. They should know also that spiritual life is more important than material life. Because, for example, we are combination of matter and spirit. So long the spirit soul is there, our body is very important. Otherwise, without spirit, the body has no importance. Everyone can understand. Similarly, all this material advancement of civilization is very good, provided there is spiritual understanding also. Otherwise it is decoration of the dead body. A dead body decorated has no value, but when there is life, then the body is valuable. So material advancement of material civilization means decoration of the dead body. But when there is spiritual understanding, then there is importance of everything. Janice Johnson: Why is it that the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement has in the last couple of years attempted to make itself a little bit more respectable in the public's eyes by having members wear street clothes and wigs and so forth, while they are soliciting? Prabhupāda: By nature it is very important movement. Therefore those who are intelligent, they are taking serious interest. We have got so many books. Perhaps you have seen. They are being accepted by the learned circle all over the world. University, colleges, professors, they are reading our books, placing standing order, and we have got relationship, especially with educated circle. They are trying to understand the importance of this movement. Janice Johnson: I don't quite understand that in terms of my question about wearing street clothes and wigs instead of saffron robes and chanting and so forth. Hari-śauri: She's pointing out that in recent years we've changed our dressing style while we're on the street selling books. Prabhupāda: Dress? Dress is not important. Practically, as sannyāsī, brahmacārī, we dress with saffron cloth, but sometimes you do not like, but we have to do business with you; therefore we change. What can be done? "Necessity has no law." Janice Johnson: I'm also interested in... You all have moved your school out of Texas. Is that correct? Prabhupāda: Gurukula school, yes. Janice Johnson: Why was that done? Prabhupāda: Why? Gurukula school? We are training children from the very beginning of life to understand spiritual importance of life. Hari-śauri: She's wondering why we moved from Texas. Prabhupāda: We have... No, we have got there. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We have, have got our school there. We have about seven or eight schools now all throughout America. We've actually expanded. Janice Johnson: But wasn't that school moved to India? Prabhupāda: No, it is maintained, not in large scale, but in small scale. Hari-śauri: Rather than have one large central school, we have smaller. Janice Johnson: Seven or eight schools around the U.S.? Where are they? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Around various farming communities especially. Interviewer: How many members do you now have? How many followers? Hari-śauri: About ten thousand. Interviewer: Ten thousand? That is in this country or is that...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Disciples. Hundreds of thousands, millions throughout the world, are reading these books, adopting some of these principles at least. Janice Johnson: What does the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement offer that other religions do not? Prabhupāda: I say it is not... Don't compare with religion. It is a educational movement. One should understand his spiritual identity. Janice Johnson: I think I'm through, thank you. Interviewer: We're through also, thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] (interviewers leave) *Rūpānuga: You made some nice points during the interview, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They wanted to know why we were doing things so elaborately, and you said, "This is for you, so that you will come here. We can live anywhere, under a tree, but if we were living under a tree you would not come. So this couch is for you to sit down because you can't sit down cross*-legged." They appreciated. Prabhupāda: Actually that is the fact. We can live any condition. What he'll do? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We saw the first Back to Godhead magazine yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The first Back to Godhead copy of the magazine that you published from Calcutta in 1944. We found in the library. Prabhupāda: Oh, '44 edition is here? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Library of Congress. Prabhupāda: How they collected? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, it has kept very nicely. Paper was... Quality was very good, printing and everything, from India, thinking... (laughs) Prabhupāda: There are some mistakes also. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, printing mistakes. Prabhupāda: That is India's special... Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Quality. Prabhupāda: ...qualification. It was printed in the best place of Calcutta; still, they committed mistake. Sarasvati Press. That is the best publisher in Bengal. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is called Tapke? Prabhupāda: Tata Spingh(?) was the agent for selling. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the paper quality was good. Prabhupāda: So it was first published in 1944. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the first appearance in the vyāsa*-pūjā day, 1944. *Prabhupāda: It was published in the first*-class place, and the first-class bookseller who was selling this, Tata Spingh(?), that was the most important bookseller in Calcutta. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Did you send copies to all the libraries? Prabhupāda: No, they were doing everything. They might have sent to America like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We saw lots of Śrīla Prabhupāda's books, recent books, in that library. Library of Congress has those books. Prabhupāda: Inside, inside the... Have you got the photograph of inside? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it's photograph of Bhaktisiddhānta Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And... This is not the copy that I wanted. Then Bhaktivinoda. (aside:) That is wrong, I think. *Prabhupāda: So 1944, and it is '76. Thirty*-two years? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: How did you get the information? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the card catalogue. I think Pradyumna found it. Pradyumna, three, four, five of us went there to see the library. Actually we went to discuss that Sūrya*-siddhānta and some of the astronomical calculations. We wanted to check in the library, but they didn't have anything. We found some. Prabhupāda: Found? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: I found one Bhāgavata*-purāṇa, it was printed in sometime 1901. Their summary of Bhāgavatam, they also described the planetary system, earth first, then... No. Yes, earth, then sun, then moon, like that, in circles. Prabhupāda: They are... Just see. Their all activities are in Arizona. That's all. That is disclosed yesterday. He has... Rūpānuga: Exposed. Prabhupāda: All bogus propaganda. They have now disclosed the same psychology, "No, I am not stealing." "Who is there in the room?" "No, no, I am not stealing." Where is the question of...? If somebody asks "Are you stealing," then this answer is... If somebody is asking, "Who is in that room?" he immediately answers, "No, no, I am not stealing." Hari-śauri: Guilty. Prabhupāda: And this is going on. What concern was about Arizona? This is psychology. They have no business with Arizona, but they are putting the Arizona. That means it was. Everything was in Arizona. What benefit people will get by such information? And they are spending so much money. If it is like Arizona cave, then Arizona there are living entities. Why not there? Hmm? What is the answer? Rūpānuga: They say it is similar, but not enough to have life. Prabhupāda: No, that is not science. If the some of them are similar, then everything must be similar. That is nature's law. Hmm? What the scientists say? Hari-śauri: There was one report. They said there may be some bacteria there. They thought there was a possibility of bacteria. Mādhava: They did not see anything grow. In the winter everything dies, everything becomes brown, and in the spring everything becomes green. In these other planets they don't see anything like that, changes. Prabhupāda: Their seeing is not perfect. Now it is up to you scientists to answer all these. What is this picture? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: The Rādhā*-ramaṇa Prabhu from Atlanta temple, I requested him to complete this after Prabhupāda's instruction. You were saying yesterday, so I just wanted to show to Prabhupāda to see how... Prabhupāda: What is this? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They sent one sample, Bhaktivedanta Institute, the emblem. And they had wanted to include some Sanskrit slogan, perhaps, and you'd mentioned athāto brahma jijñāsā, so they have done that and decorated little bit. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. This is... Is this style acceptable to Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do. Where is wrong? Or you can... Svarūpa Dāmodara: And this is another one that, the similar style, but here with devotees inside. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja wrote me that... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is my opinion, that because it is Bhaktivedanta Institute, it should have the picture of the founder, Bhaktivedanta. Especially also because not only children will be instructed, but you'll have adults also I'm presuming. The picture appears to be very young people. Rūpānuga: I was thinking that to show the devotees dressed in the śikhās and everything may not be so important. That will make us some Indian, Hindu... Prabhupāda: Yes. This is... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Quite. So we'll take this. Rūpānuga: We're always preaching to everyone. This is rough sketch, but we can make it very colorful, make nice color, detail. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja sent me a letter yesterday, asking a little about Bhaktivedanta Institute, what plans, things like that. Prabhupāda: So, we are going tomorrow. You are also coming? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Rūpānuga, we should also... What we've been thinking was at the beginning we would try to finish this book as part of the Institute's program, and plus that journal we discussed yesterday with Ravīndra Svarūpa as the, er... And that will be our initial phase, and our feeling is that, now, this Institute, at the beginning, some sort of research institute that we are doing right now, writing something, collecting some information from other sources. So some sort of... Looks to me like a research type... It is research oriented. Rūpānuga: Until we finish the book and are able to establish a teaching situation. Right now our men are really concerned with finishing so we have some good propaganda. Prabhupāda: No, one thing is, research means again that mental speculation. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But our research is different though. Prabhupāda: So they have... People will understand that it is another type of mental speculation. But ours is not that. We take it as Absolute Truth. So how to convince them? Rūpānuga: We were not going to advertise ourselves as a research institute. Prabhupāda: Research means that it is not known; you are trying to find out. But our, Kṛṣṇa's position is not. It is already known. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And another aspect of the Institute at the beginning phase is that Your Divine Grace also instructed a few days ago that we also get some, try to give some lectures to colleges. We can present as members from the Bhaktivedanta Institute, the higher learning section of ISKCON. That can also be part of the... So we can go to colleges and universities. We don't have to go every month or so, but maybe once a month or twice a month. Prabhupāda: Whenever there is opportunity. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but we can represent from... Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...Bhaktivedanta Institute. If we do that, then people will also respect, those in the academic circle, that we are representing ISKCON from academic aspect. We have our title that "From Bhaktivedanta Institute, such and such person is going to speak on such and such topic." Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we can, in the initial phase we can... Prabhupāda: (aside:) So you can post this. Here. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This one, Bhaktivedanta Institute. I have to go into town a little bit later to pick up these passports. They're not quite ready till two*-thirty. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We were also thinking that since Rūpānuga Prabhu is here in the Washington area but his participation is most important, so he's suggesting that the Institute, they house someone here in Washington. Rūpānuga: It is also a good area for scientists. Already we have met... Prabhupāda: That you make thing. That you will make from among yourselves. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In this college program, when we went last time to Florida, Gainesville, Amarendra, our president of Gainesville temple... Prabhupāda: He has written. It was encouraging. Hari-śauri: Balavanta was reporting about the TV that he did at the university in Gainesville. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually he wanted to make engagements in colleges, and he wanted to participate, going to colleges, talk, and make engagements. Prabhupāda: So go. Do this. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And he said we can come once in a while and give lectures. Prabhupāda: That kind of engagement is very nice. Rūpānuga: We learned there that they wanted some book to take home and study the situation. So we told them... We told them we were working on book. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Rūpānuga: So the book will be very helpful, for propaganda when we meet with these people. Prabhupāda: So finish this book as soon as possible. Rūpānuga: It is very important. These kinds of engagements, as you know, if you don't have some kind of literature for them to take home, then it's not complete. (to Svarūpa Dāmodara:) Another point? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think that's all the... *Rūpānuga: So the title of the journal is Sa*-vijñānam, Sa-vijñāna. Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Scientific Knowledge" Rūpānuga: "In Scientific Knowledge" Svarūpa Dāmodara: "In"? This "in"? Rūpānuga: That's what Śrīla Prabhupāda said, "In Scientific Knowledge." I was wondering, if this, is this, sa, mean "in"? Prabhupāda: No, sa means "with." *Rūpānuga: "With scientific." Would it be improper to say Vijñāna only? Would that be improper? I was thinking in terms of making the title as short as possible. Vijñānam or sa*-vijñānam, both nice, but I was thinking... *Prabhupāda: Sa*-vijñāna is more important. Vijñānam means theoretical. And sa-vijñāna means practical. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in parenthesis we write, "In Scientific Knowledge"? Prabhupāda: That you say. Or you can write, "Spiritual Science." No. That will not ring for them. They will not understand "Spiritual Science." Svarūpa Dāmodara: How about "perfect science," "complete science." Devotee: "Absolute science." *Rūpānuga: "Science of the absolute." So I'll be coming to New York, but first I have to go to Ratha*-yātrā in Philadelphia. They are having Ratha-yātrā on the tenth. Then I don't think there will be any GBC meetings earlier than that, so I'll go there first. (to devotees:) Any other scientists have any other questions they'd like to ask Śrīla Prabhupāda while we have this time? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, any question? Sadāpūta: There was one thing I was wondering a little bit. Is the possibility of..., is it possible of making some experiments which would tend to indicate that life is not material? And this might be appealing to some of the people with scientific education, because they are used to such things, experiments. *Prabhupāda: No, experiment is there. Just like in... Hindus, we burn the body into ashes. How the soul is transmigrating? This is scientific experiment. The Bhagavad*-gītā says nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. Everyone is seeing the body is burned into ashes, but still, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. He's going to another body. How it is going? So the soul is not burned. Rūpānuga: We were having a meeting with the other scientists, and they were challenging you. They were saying, "Show us one experiment. Show us one experiment!" That's the way they are. Prabhupāda: There are so many experiments. Sadāpūta: We were wondering... We knew that, for example, Jagadisha Chandra Bose did some experiments indicating plants having consciousness. We were wondering if some things of that kind might be of some use. Prabhupāda: So in the Calcutta there is Bose Institute, you can go and see. They have got all machine, how the plants are feeling. Everything is there. Rūpānuga: That's important because they are saying these animals have no soul. They are saying lower form of life, they have no soul, so killing them is not important. So his work was important. It showed... Prabhupāda: No, killing or not killing, that is another point. You can kill your own son. They are killing, actually. That is another point. But they have got soul. All the symptoms are there; how you can say there is no soul? Where is the difference between man's behavior and animal's behavior? So far eating, sleeping, sex, defense is concerned, the same thing. How do you say that it is different from the human being? Why they differentiate the animal from the man? What is the main point? Sadāpūta: I think that scientifically that was just Christian doctrine that made them do that. Because the scientists turned around... Prabhupāda: Christian doctrine is not perfect. But symptoms of animal and symptoms of human being, primary necessities eating sleeping, mating, defense that is there, everywhere. Rūpānuga: They may agree, but they'll say that this... Prabhupāda: There is soul. As soon as there is living condition, there is soul. As soon as the body is dead, there is no soul. This is difference. It is the Christian doctrine, not scientific doctrine, that animal has... What we have to do with Christian theory? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have poor understanding of the nature of the soul. Prabhupāda: Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Christianity, they speak of... Prabhupāda: It is not very advanced. Rūpānuga: That's not respected. Prabhupāda: That is true. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even Billy Graham says there's no soul in the dog. In his column "My Answer"... There's a column by Billy Graham... Hari-śauri: That's that column you saw. Prabhupāda: So you challenge them, the scientists. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somebody asked that "I love my dog. Looks like the dog comes when I call and behaves very nicely." So this question was asking that the dog might have soul. So he asked Billy Graham, "What do you think?" So Billy Graham was saying, "No, dog has no soul." Prabhupāda: This is dogmatic. This is not scientific; it is dogmatic. Rūpānuga: He could not support his statements. Prabhupāda: So dogmatic, you can say any nonsense, but philosophy and science is different. If he's talking on dogmatic platform, then what is his value? What does he mean by "soul is there" and "soul is not there"? How does he prove? Rūpānuga: We were finding that there are some real scientific experiments like Pasteur's, the one we did in the slide show the other night, and some of the work of Bose, that have been ignored simply or misinterpreted. Already there has been some work in this area. So we were thinking that we could point to these as examples to confirm our position, because they are scientific. Prabhupāda: Now, in Christian commandment, there is "Thou shalt not kill." So what does it mean? (door opens and closes) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These Chinese Bhagavad*-gītās came, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Chinese will be color? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he said there was some defect with them, so they rectified that, the color. Rūpānuga: Who has done this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: One devotee. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, this is nice! (laughs) Hari-śauri: This is the first six chapters. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He mentioned that he's going to begin printing the second six chapters soon, within two months, and also a new Chinese magazine. (end) *Room Conversation with Scientists-*-July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is an international meeting coming up next year on the origin of life, in Japan, Tokyo. They have an international body called International Society for the Study of the Origin of Life, and there are participants from all over the world actually. They hold this meeting once every four years. Next one is scheduled to be in Tokyo. We were thinking that if we get some material, we'll go and represent there. Rūpānuga: Scientists will come there from around the world? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes, big, big scientists. Prabhupāda: But they are biased on the point that origin of life is chemical. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. Everybody is coming for them one hundred percent. Rūpānuga: What is the discussion then? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, some will, you know, "I have done this experiment, and this looks very possible that about four billion years ago there was some chemical that, ah, get life." Rūpānuga: So if we go there, there will be a big fight. (laughs) Svarūpa Dāmodara: It will be very interesting if we can throw some mathematics. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, you can challenge them with this, that "Why don't you prepare a chemical egg and give it to the incubator and let life come? If you cannot do that, then don't talk nonsense." This is simple thing. Analyze, take a sparrow's egg, small, analyze what chemicals there are, and combine in the same way. Why they do not do that? Rūpānuga: It's too hard. Prabhupāda: Then why do they talk nonsense? You stress on this point. If they say "Yes, we shall do after millions of years," then he should be challenged that "You give up your title, 'Doctor' let the sparrow take it. He's doing. You give up, nonsense, your title. Don't talk nonsense. The sparrow, without taking any doctorate title, he's doing that. So what is the value of your doctorate title?" Challenge him. Seriously challenge. This point you present, they cannot do it, it is certain. It is not possible to be done like that. Spirit soul is different complete from the matter. They have to acknowledge it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When there is a change of... Prabhupāda: Just like this house, a combination of matter. But I am within this room, that does not mean I am this matter. Similarly, I am within this body, but that does not mean I am this body. This chemical composition is suitable arrangement, like this house is made with bricks, with lime, with stone, with wood. But as a living being, I am not identified with all those. Similarly, the body, it may be combination of chemicals, but the life is different. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So even if they could put the chemicals together, a spirit soul would still have to enter in order for it to become animated. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: My feelings is that even if they make these chemicals, the spirit is never going to come in that medium. Otherwise... *Prabhupāda: No, because it comes by superior order, not by your order. Daiva*-netreṇa. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that's good that now science is trying that in about fifty years or so, at the turn of the century, they have a strong hope that they will be able to understand the meaning of life from this chemical concept. But when they see that that's not possible, then they have to come around that what they thought was completely illusion. In that case, our... Prabhupāda: Case will be strong. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes, then everybody will accept. Prabhupāda: You can challenge that "You cannot do it." *Rūpānuga: You once said that because people are becoming more educated and scientific*-minded, they are rejecting these religions. So similarly, because they are becoming more educated and scientific minded... *Prabhupāda: So*-called educated, they are becoming fools. *Rūpānuga: But still, they are challenging. But they, for the same reason, will challenge the scientists in due time. Because they become..., if they become more scientific*-minded, then they will challenge these statements that the scientists never verify. Constantly they are saying, but they never do anything. Prabhupāda: Our challenge should be "Do it." If you cannot do it, then you give up your title, let it go to the chicken. Huh? What is the wrong there, if we say "Dr. Chicken," "Dr. Frog"? Sadāpūta: These theories of theirs are taught in high schools and colleges as fact, practically. Like the student in Gainesville was telling us that he was taking zoology, and they were teaching evolution, and they were saying that it wasn't a theory anymore but it was a proven fact, and that he was quite dissatisfied with that. Prabhupāda: Proven fact? Sadāpūta: Yes, that's how they are teaching it. They don't even teach evolution as a theory anymore, but they say it's been proven as a fact now, what they are teaching. Prabhupāda: : So how it is fact? You cannot do. So what is the fact? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are cheating. There is also a big man in Bombay who is working on this line. He's a member of this International Society for the Study of the Origin of Life. Now they call... In fact, they use a Sanskrit word for this life coming from chemicals, they call jīvana particles of life. So they are also catching this idea that life is nothing but molecules. So along with this article, they are also writing from Bombay. So actually it is worldwide, all over, this concept. In India I think a little more interesting to give seminars along these lines. In India in the universities, the reaction of the... My feeling is that it will be different. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So do it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like that Dr. Sharma, who came yesterday, he's very much along our thought. Prabhupāda: Who wrote the book? Rūpānuga: No, no, an Indian gentleman. He has several degrees in science area, and he has an important post. Prabhupāda: Dr. Sharma? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Who came yesterday. Sanskrit, he knows Sanskrit well? From Hardwar? Prabhupāda: Oh. So why don't you take him? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes, he's very willing to help anything along these lines. But he told me that once we have this Bhaktivedanta Institute and we have this done, he told us that he can find some means by which we can get some grant from the government. There are several funding agencies, and he's one of the important men for giving grants, this National Institute of Health, and he has several connections with the top rank... Prabhupāda: Authorities. So keep connection with him. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. And he even wants to write some articles along these lines. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is favorable, keep in touch. (long pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: One thing I wanted to ask was about the ārati, in offering ārati, now we blow the conchshell, but, ah, coming out the pūjārī from the altar, outside, when the pūjārī blows the conchshell, he does this, especially in Atlanta, and I think in other temples also I have seen, the pūjārī comes out of the... Rūpānuga: Yes, he comes on this side of the altar and blows the conchshell. Is that all right? It should be behind the curtain or in front of the curtain? Prabhupāda: Behind the curtain? Rūpānuga: He should blow it behind. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, what he does is, the pūjārī comes out while the other devotees are there, behind the curtain, and then blows the conchshell. Prabhupāda: To make the sound audible? But there is no harm. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Inside. But this disturbs something to the whole scene, because he has to remove the chain and cross it and then... Prabhupāda: No, no. Why? There is no need. No need of crossing the chain. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it can be done inside then? Prabhupāda: Why not? It can be done. Hari-śauri: I think they took that from Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana, they blow the conchshells, they come out onto that little balcony and blow. Rūpānuga: I also wanted to ask a question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, on dancing in the temple room during ārati, especially maṅgala-ārati. Is it not that the devotees should not turn their back while dancing to the Deity? Prabhupāda: No, no. Rūpānuga: And that they should not bump each other or dance with each other personally, distracting the attention from the Deity? Shouldn't all the dancing be focused toward the Deity? Prabhupāda: Sometimes dancing is done here in peculiar method. (laughter). That is not desirable. The dancing, Caitanya Mahāprabhu is showing. Rūpānuga: You have shown us the feet, changing of the feet with arms upraised, not with the back to the Deity. Prabhupāda: They do it out of sentiment, but that is not very good. Rūpānuga: Also they bump one another with the drum or with each other's bodies, they dance and they bump like this. That is not bona fide is it? It is very popular in our movement now. Prabhupāda: They are inventing. What can I do? If you invent your own way... Devotee: I have a question, Śrīla Prabhupāda. At what point is a householder to know when he should leave his family or her family? Prabhupāda: After fifty years of age. Rūpānuga: Fifty years old. Prabhupāda: When he is fifty years old, then he can think of leaving household. Devotee: What if the spouse is very antagonistic toward Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Antagonistic? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Opposed. Prabhupāda: That is not the remedy, because afterwards he give up and become a sannyāsī, and then again become this gṛhastha. This is not good. Opposition is already there, especially in the Western countries; they will never agree. So why do you marry? That is understood. Huh? Both the boys and girls trained in such a way that there must be opposition. So that is expected, that in your married life there will be opposition. So why do you marry? Hari-śauri: He's talking about if you're married before you come to the movement and one person wants to join the movement and the other person is not very agreeable. Prabhupāda: No. Any... It is not because there is opposition, therefore I give up family life. Unless one is mature, there is no need of artificially giving up family life. The best thing is if one can remain without marriage. That is very good. No botheration. Hmm. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C. Prabhupāda: Give little, a small pot. Dr. Sharma: Prabhupāda, you have given such beautiful temples, so many devotees, now to have a point of jump so that all India and all the world and other people can join in this. Your answers today were very penetrating. That can help a lot, saying that people can work outside but still be devotees, and if they can chant, if they can devote work, and if they can submit all the fruits of their actions, if this can be somehow made available, this particular... Prabhupāda: It is available. Dr. Sharma: Yes, but these few questions only, the answers, that these are from you and these are there, then it will be a point of jump in the movement. It will be a big jump in the movement. And what can we do...? Prabhupāda: So come and join us and help us. Dr. Sharma: I would be most honored to do it, and I am trying from the outside. Prabhupāda: No, you are in Washington? Dr. Sharma: Yes, I am in Washington. Prabhupāda: So organize here. Talk with the scientists and everyone here. Dr. Sharma: I come two or three times a week for the temple, and I will be coming more. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: Your idea of the Institute is possibly the most magnificent idea, because that will bring all the scientists... Prabhupāda: Yes, actually it is. At least those who are Indians, let them join. It is Indian culture. *Dr. Sharma: Yes, it is such a wonderful thing. I was a hard*-core Vedāntist before I came, and I was not satisfied. I think that by chanting one really changes. Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Sharma: I bring all the Indian people I can, because I know, I am a scientist, I still believe in God. Prabhupāda: What is your subject matter? Dr. Sharma: I have four doctorates in four different areas. Prabhupāda: Oh? Dr. Sharma: I have a Ph.D. in chemistry, a Ph.D. in biochemistry, a Doctor of Science in clinical endocrinology. I have a Fellow of the Royal Institute of Chemistry of London, which is a higher Ph.D. I am in computer information and control engineering... Prabhupāda: Royal College of... That... What is is called? Dr. Sharma: Royal Institute of Chemistry, London. And I have a law degree. And I am in computer information and control engineering. Prabhupāda: (laughing) You are such a big man. Kindly join us and help us. Dr. Sharma: I would be most honored, and I'm slowing trying to work it out in such a way that I can... *Prabhupāda: No, the formula is all given in this Bhagavad*-gītā. *Dr. Sharma: I find your Bhagavad*-gītā most illuminating as compared to other Gītās I have read, the translations. *Prabhupāda: We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, that's all. Dr. Sharma: How can we best serve the movement? By joining it? I have joined it in a... Prabhupāda: Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācaiḥ: "By life, by money, by intelligence, by words." Either four or three or two, at least one. Then it will be all right. Dr. Sharma: I'll be writing... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: ...about the movement in scientific journals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: That I'll be writing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sharma: And I'll be writing... Prabhupāda: That is dhiyā. Dr. Sharma: And I'll be writing... Prabhupāda: Vācaiḥ. Dr. Sharma: I'll also be writing in scientific way, books about it. Prabhupāda: You write in our... We are going to publish one magazine. Dr. Sharma: 'Cause I think the movement is very scientific. Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside) No, call Svarūpa Dāmodara. Dr. Sharma: I shall write in books and give it to the editors here to use it the way they best can. I normally publish... I only last month got a medical prize, a large prize, for medicine. My name is known internationally, medical journals. So I'll submit it to the Book Trust. Prabhupāda: So, you are qualified medical man? Dr. Sharma: No, I am only in research. I am not qualified to practice medicine, but in clinical medical practice and clinical journals I am qualified. I used to be... Prabhupāda: From chemical point. Dr. Sharma: No, from medicine point. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Dr. Sharma: From medicine point. In physics and mathematics I'll write in those ways, and I'll submit it and let them use it the way they feel like it. Previously I was with the āśrama. Prabhupāda: Which āśrama? Dr. Sharma: Kohasat(?) Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Dr. Sharma: And before that with the Swami Ram Tirtha Mission in New York. I was a follower of Vivekananda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Sharma: And at the Belior Math in Belior Math Daksinesvara in Calcutta. But I find that by really chanting... I was crying to God, literally, at night, that "Find me the path again," and then I found your movement. And I find it, yes, it does make a difference. I was also amazed that evening when the first two days ago I was thinking I will ask you five ślokas of *Gītā* to give me. Out of that, you discussed four. And I was meditating on Hardwar, where I was born. All the time your face was appearing behind Ganges, and it was very strange phenomena. I do not know when I will be fortunate enough to have your darśana again, but in the meantime, I'm slowly... I feel that this movement you have done supernatural thing. Now, somehow... Prabhupāda: That's a great certificate, because it is coming from you. Dr. Sharma: It's a supernatural thing. I do not believe that it is natural. It is in the world and eternal. I have been here... To be able to convert these people, to be able to make devotees, is unnatural. Prabhupāda: Where is Svarūpa Dāmodara? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That indemnity bond? I think I can pack it away until New York City. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I could take care of that, pack it away until we get to New York. Prabhupāda: Who will pack it? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think I put it on your desk in there. Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indemnity bond. But the letter has to be written also. Dr. Sharma: Today's discussion was possibly the most magnificent, and very clearly given, about people can be in work as well as... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Sharma: ...devotees. This, today's discussion, if that is available in some publication form, just that much, then I shall be most happy to distribute it among all the Indians. Prabhupāda: Yes, do it. Dr. Sharma: I will do that. *Prabhupāda: Sthāne sthitāḥ... That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's recommendation. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. You remain your place, but engage your body, tanu, vāk, your words, and mind. Tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. Engage all these things for Kṛṣṇa. So tanu means senses. You hear about Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa. Then vāk, automatically, words, and mind also. If you hear of Kṛṣṇa, you'll think of Him. In this way there is no need of changing the place, Sthāne sthitāḥ. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi: "My Lord, You are Ajita, nobody can conquer You. But this person who has engaged his body, mind and words for Your service, he can conquer You." Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. This was spoken by Lord Brahmā, that there is no question of changing position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never says so, neither śāstras. But in a regulative way there are steps, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. But on the transcendental platform these things are useless. Simply engage in the service of the Lord. That is mukti. Dr. Sharma: I am thinking that when the Institute is formed, I shall perform all the services, whatever are needed to help. Prabhupāda: Kindly do that. Dr. Sharma: I'll be doing that. I'll be writing now, and... Prabhupāda: Your family is also here? Dr. Sharma: Yes, I will be married very soon, in about a month. Hari-śauri: They said Svarūpa Dāmodara went down to the prasādam pavilion, so we sent someone down to find him. Prabhupāda: Oh. Good. Now here is... All right. Dr. Sharma: Yes, we think that you have done supernatural things. We can do at least just a little bit, just a little bit. Prabhupāda: Finishing touch. Dr. Sharma: Well, no, just a little bit. We will not be able finish it, but we will be able to... Prabhupāda: No, the student does roughly, and the master gives the finishing touch, painting. Dr. Sharma: You are very kind. But we will try. It is supernatural. To me... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Now here is Dr. Sharma. He is Ph.D. in four subject matters, and he is a lawyer, so he's very highly qualified man, and he wants to give his all aid so that... Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we need his help. Prabhupāda: Yes. And he is convinced about our bonafideness of this movement. So by his example many other qualified Indians... And it is the business of the Indian. It is Indian culture. They are accepting. Present them most scientifically, and it will be a glory of India. Dr. Sharma: It is up to us to bring Kṛṣṇa's words now... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dr. Sharma: ...to the world. He wanted us to do. Prabhupāda: Yes, kindly do that. So you talk with him in detail how to, if you..., whether our, this branch will be situated... They say here it is good? Svarūpa Dāmodara: For Institute? Yes... I am also going to Boston to see the facility there. Prabhupāda: But he can write. He give you. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes, he can furnish it in so many ways, and we are going to need Dr. Sharma's help, because he's in the government agency in the scientific field, so... Prabhupāda: Yes. If he wants to help us, he can help us in so many ways. Dr. Sharma: Yes, I'll be very much honored to help. Prabhupāda: And he's convinced. He's not an ordinary person. He's convinced. So let us take his help and... Dr. Sharma: I'll see what the government and the foundations... I can go to the foundation to help it. Once the Institute is formed, I can go to the foundations to get the money from them both to support the movement or the Institute for education. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dr. Sharma: Once we get started on that... You must be very tired now. You have... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Today is Ekādaśī also. Dr. Sharma: I do not know when I will be fortunate to have your darśana again, but I certainly think God will again give me the blessing to have your darśana. India is fortunate to have... Prabhupāda: We shall see every moment, every day with our work. If the work is going on, then I see you, you see me. (laughs) Dr. Sharma: And I think that Vivekananda came here before. He brought some things. After that, nothing was brought out. The only thing which has been brought out which is genuine, which is really in the benefit... Prabhupāda: Indian culture, it is really... Dr. Sharma: These are the only two things which I have seen. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you very much. Dr. Sharma: I will remember you always out of seeing you in this. Prabhupāda: Your full name? Dr. Sharma: Dinesh. Prabhupāda: Very nice name. Dr. Sharma: Dinesh Sharma. Prabhupāda: : Dīna bandhu, dīneśa, (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa, all right. Dr. Sharma: God's kindness has brought me to your feet. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Arrival Comments in Car to Temple-*-July 9, 1976, New York Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do they own or lease it? Rāmeśvara: They lease. The city builds it and they lease it from the city. Prabhupāda: What is the name of this airport? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: La Guardia. Prabhupāda: La Guardia, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are three airports. Prabhupāda: I think these buildings are not ten years ago. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. New York has three airports. Rāmeśvara: This is the oldest airport. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kennedy, La Guardia, and there's one just across the river, Newark. It's in New Jersey, but it's considered part of the Port Authority. Prabhupāda: I hear, Māyāpura Project? You have not been sending money? Rāmeśvara: Not yet. Prabhupāda: They want money. Gargamuni has written. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they've been calling for money regularly, but we have not been able to send them any. Rāmeśvara: I met with Gurukṛpā Swami, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he has just transferred from the Japanese collections 125,000 dollars. He is writing one letter. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) not all at a time. Management is not very good. So... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Little by little. Prabhupāda: One lakh will be sufficient. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For carrying on the work. Prabhupāda: Things are going on here nice? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're gradually improving. Actually everything has just begun here; it's by no means complete. You'll see that all of the work is just in progress. It will take a while to make it very nice. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Manage nicely. Kṛṣṇa is giving us everything, there is no scarcity. If we simply sincerely work, Kṛṣṇa will give us intelligence, everything. By His mercy everything is available. That is Kṛṣṇa*-He can give you anything. That Brooklyn Bridge, I think? That iron bridge? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there is a Brooklyn Bridge, but we're not going over it. Prabhupāda: Sometimes I was coming there and sitting down near the bridge. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Near the water? You were sitting near the water? Prabhupāda: Yes, that river. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a famous bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge. It's the biggest expansion*-type bridge. Prabhupāda: Because I was on that Bowery Street, it is not very far away. So I was coming, walking there, and sitting under the bridge. And thinking, "Whether I shall return to India?" (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said you were always inquiring when the boat was returning. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There was one sub*-railway station, beginning with F? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fulton Street? Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fulton Street. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Sometimes I am going there. Fulton. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's very well known. Rāmeśvara: It's in the Village. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This bridge we're going on is called the Tri*-borough Bridge. Prabhupāda: Oh. This is over New York? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it goes over the East River. Prabhupāda: That Hudson Street? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hudson River is on the other side. This is going on the east side of the city. Prabhupāda: That subway that goes to the city office? There are so many bridges. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many, yes, many, many bridges. Every day about seven million people come into this island of Manhattan from the other boroughs, and they go back. From your room, our building is very close to the Empire State Building, so from your room you have a very nice view of it. Prabhupāda: Oh. So Los Angeles everything is going nice? Rāmeśvara: Everything is very nice. We just had a big saṅkīrtana marathon for this Fourth of July, and they distributed up to thirty thousand Back to Godheads in just a few days. Prabhupāda: (referring to garland) Make it smaller. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it's all one garland, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You can just make smaller. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Rāmeśvara: We had a good success because we sent out all the householders to the parks. During that holiday everyone goes to the parks. So the householders took their children and they set up a tent, and one of them stayed there babysitting and all the others went out distributing your books. So in that way they went out on traveling saṅkīrtana. *Prabhupāda: What is the name of that boy? He sold one Caitanya*-caritāmṛta to a chemist? Devotee: Praghoṣa? *Hari-śauri: No, not Praghoṣa, he's originally from New York, big, heavy, thick*-set boy. Begins with J. *Prabhupāda: One chemist of (indistinct), he sold one book, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, then he talked with me, he's pleased. *Hari-śauri: He sold him a Caitanya*-caritāmṛta and then he brought him over and Prabhupāda spoke to him. Prabhupāda: New York climate is very nice? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice, like Calcutta. Hari-śauri: On July Fourth Prabhupāda went and drove into Washington to see the fireworks. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really. Hari-śauri: In the evening we had traveling kīrtana all around the city. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think this is enough, Prabhupāda? I'll tie it together now. Prabhupāda: No, no. Hari-śauri: Kīrtana, the reaction was amazing, people were dancing and chanting and waving, Prabhupāda was in ecstasy. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: New York climate is very nice. Sometimes now it rains a little bit, then shining. So just like Bengal. Rāmeśvara: I observed that these devotees at New York, they've practically given up sleeping this past week to prepare everything for your arrival. Prabhupāda: (laughs) They are so kind to me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they worked very hard. *Rāmeśvara: It reminded me that time when the Press devotees stayed up all the time to get those Caitanya*-caritāmṛta volumes. The same spirit. They just stopped eating and sleeping. Prabhupāda: That is love. These things can be done only out of love. Rāmeśvara: There were some hired carpenters and painters, and their last day of working was, I think, Wednesday. So yesterday and this morning they came in voluntarily, they stayed up the whole night without sleep, and they continued working. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eight o'clock yesterday, and they just finished this morning. Straight through the night. Prabhupāda: They are professional? Rāmeśvara: : Professional, but by the association of the devotees... Prabhupāda: They become... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of them now says that he wants to rent a room for the whole year in our building. Rāmeśvara: He loves the prasādam. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says he likes the prasādam. Prabhupāda: Why don't you stay here? No rent, you stay here. You are devotee. Stay here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a celibate right now. He's not married, bachelor. Prabhupāda: Take prasādam, stay here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what he wants, and let him give part of his income. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because of this rain the atmosphere is actually very clean now. You notice that. It's not very much smog, compared to usual. This is the FDR Drive. Prabhupāda: These are cooperative buildings? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda. These are lower middle class cooperative buildings. This is the East Side. Prabhupāda: I selected one cooperative apartment, they wanted five thousand dollars. (laughs) I had no money. Very nice apartment, near city office. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Downtown. This is First Avenue here, at about ll6th Street, where we are now. *Prabhupāda: Our building is on the Fifty*-fourth? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty*-fifth Street. Just near Broadway, one block from Broadway. Prabhupāda: Broadway is important place. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very important. Our building is right in the midst of the theater, restaurant and entertainment section of the city. Prabhupāda: In New York I feel little homely because first I came here, I was loitering on the street here and there. From 1965 September, to '67 July, continually I stayed in New York. Rāmeśvara: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja gave one class this morning. So he was explaining that we cannot understand the good fortune of this city that you have come here. We cannot begin to estimate how fortunate this city is. Prabhupāda: Yes, I, when I decided I shall go to foreign countries, I never thought of going to London, I thought of coming here. Generally they go to London, but I thought, "No, I shall go to New York." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very progressive. Prabhupāda: (laughs) I do not know. It is Kṛṣṇa's dictation. I could have gone, London was nearer. But I thought, "No I shall go to New York." Sometimes I think I was coming this part. Aimlessly... I think the United Nations building is somewhere here? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a little further down. It's on this avenue, it's on Forty*-fourth Street, we are on Ninety-sixth Street. We are a little bit uptown. *Prabhupāda: And Ninety... Yes. That Indian Consulate office is Sixty*-fourth. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sixty*-fourth Street, and just off Central Park. Prabhupāda: I was coming there sometimes, talking with the officers. One Mr. Malotra was there, he was showing me very friendly. He arranged some meeting in consulate office. They had some organization, Tagore Organization. Second Avenue we'll come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is First Avenue, then comes Second. Prabhupāda: Yes, sometimes walking on the Second Avenue. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're going to go up to Central Park and then go along the Park. *Prabhupāda: This is Ninety*-sixth? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Ninety*-sixth Street. Prabhupāda: There was fire in this building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are many fires in this city, I notice. Prabhupāda: It is due to the warm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, due to the warm, and also the buildings, some of them are old and they are not built properly. Prabhupāda: Not taken care of. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Our building is also an old building, it's seventy years old. But it's made of solid stone and concrete, brick. Prabhupāda: Then it will never get old. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's extremely... Prabhupāda: You have to simply change the plastering. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, painting, plastering. Prabhupāda: Then it will continue new for hundreds of years. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's built like that, it's all steel reinforced everywhere. Prabhupāda: Ah, then it is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's rated..., it has the top fire rating in the city. Prabhupāda: After three years it will require little repairing, then it will keep new always. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right now we're in the process of simply repainting it, giving it a fresh coat of paint to make it new, because they had not painted it for about ten years. Prabhupāda: It should be painted every three years, then it will be all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Rāmeśvara: On the outside as well. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything, then the building will keep very fresh always. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is Second Avenue? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Third Avenue. Next comes Lexington Avenue. Prabhupāda: This is black area? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Puerto Rican and black. This city has as many people Puerto Ricans as Puerto Rico does. So many Puerto Rican people come here, because part of it's a possession of the United States. So the East Side is Puerto Ricans and the West Side... Prabhupāda: Generally they are worker class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. This is Park Avenue. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: Some of the billboard signs are even Portuguese also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spanish. Prabhupāda: They speak Spanish? Rāmeśvara: Puerto Ricans speak Spanish. Prabhupāda: Why don't you sell Spanish books to them? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We do. We distribute here Spanish books from New York. *Rāmeśvara: Today Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja is sending to the printer the last volume of the First Canto in Spanish, another volume of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam in Spanish. And before you leave New York he will give you... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll give him... Rāmeśvara: ...a new book in Spanish, the Kṛṣṇa book, Volume One. Prabhupāda: Oh. Rāmeśvara: That is coming in a few days. *Prabhupāda: You have seen Chinese Bhagavad*-gītā? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we have seen that. Prabhupāda: You have got it? Hari-śauri: Yes, in the back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have it also. I sent a copy to Peking. Prabhupāda: He has done very nice. First six chapters. So in three books it will be finished. Hari-śauri: The next six chapters are coming out soon. Prabhupāda: That boy is doing very nice. Yaśomatī? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sūta. Prabhupāda: Sūta, yes, very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Madison Avenue. Here is Fifth Avenue. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Central Park. I was coming to Central Park from the other side, Seventy*-second Street. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our temple is four blocks from Central Park. Just walking distance. The mothers and children go there. Prabhupāda: Central Park? Very nice. So you have advantage of the park. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. And on Sundays we put on saṅkīrtana in the park, and then people are invited to come to the temple for the feast. Now because of the good weather, many people leave the city on the weekend, so the numbers of people who are coming on the Love Feast days is not as much as before the summer and after the summer. Now they like to go to the beaches and resort areas, where it's cool and there's water. Prabhupāda: The zoo is here also here? (pronounces "joo") Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jewish people? Prabhupāda: No, zoo, zoology. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Zoo, zoology. Yes, Central Park Zoo is on about Sixty*-fourth Street, Sixty-fifth Street, just off of the east. Prabhupāda: All big, big buildings. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's New York. The population now of the greater New York area is eighteen million. Prabhupāda: Eighteen million? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: It was ten million. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it has very much increased now. That includes the outlying... Prabhupāda: How it has increased? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it includes the outlying suburbs which have become very developed. Rāmeśvara: Long Island, it includes Long Island. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just as many people are living here now, and many, many more people are living on the outskirts. Rāmeśvara: And Queens. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Queens and Brooklyn, much more people are living there than before. Queens and Long Island especially. *Prabhupāda: So Bali*-mardana is doing all right? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he and I stay together. We get up at two*-thirty in the morning, chant sixteen rounds before ārati, saying Gāyatrī strictly on time, eating very little, and he reads a great deal of the day, two or three hours he reads, and he's also preaching, giving classes. Prabhupāda: His wife? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She's engaged in taking care of the life members, Indian life members who come, and the guest rooms. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. She is expert. She's very expert. She can do nicely. During winter here it will be so cold you cannot stand even. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually after I left Hawaii, I went to see you in Hawaii, all of the work that we did in this building began from when I returned here. So it's been a great push for the last month or month and a half, I think. They did not do much improvement on the temple the first five or six months they were here. They were just adjusting, I guess. Prabhupāda: Not proper leader. What is this building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the, ah... Rāmeśvara: Metropolitan Museum of Art. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Metropolitan Museum of Art. Very famous art museum. Prabhupāda: Saw fireworks in Washington. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's the Empire State Building, Prabhupāda, straight ahead. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: I think one day our art paintings will also be in these museums. Because our artists are becoming as expert as anyone. Prabhupāda: Must be. Rāmeśvara: Already people are coming and offering minimum one thousand dollars to buy a painting. In Los Angeles, I have sold some paintings for a thousand dollars each. Originals and some copies (laughter) also. Prabhupāda: Copy, how do you make copy? Rāmeśvara: We have some artists practicing. So he makes a copy of the original, and I sell it for five hundred dollars. Half the price of the original. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good business. Rāmeśvara: But that will increase. You can get ten thousand, twenty thousand dollars for one painting in the future, because they are paying that much now for inferior work. Prabhupāda: Who is painting nice? Muralī? Rāmeśvara: Muralīdhara, Jadurāṇī, Parīkṣit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Parīkṣit is wonderful. Prabhupāda: Parīkṣit, yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He's expert. We have one boy in the temple here who has been doing murals on the walls in the temple room, and he's done it very quickly with a technique called air*-brush. Instead of using a brush, you use a spray gun, and you spray the paint on. It's a modern technique. It's especially good in murals and things. Prabhupāda: First of all they draw in lines? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And then they spray on the paint. He finishes a painting in two or three days. Big murals. (laughs) He's expert. He's known as the human camera. He can copy any picture onto a wall. His name is Viṣṇu dāsa. *Prabhupāda: So why does he not go to Māyāpura*-candrodaya...? (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's meant to go, after he finishes the temple. You already told him to go last time. Rāmeśvara: We knew you would say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were talking this morning how as soon as you see these murals, you'll say he should go to Māyāpura. He paints very quickly. We could actually send him with that spray gun. Prabhupāda: Electric spray? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I don't know if they use electricity, or do you use gas? The thing is that he can paint directly, just as fast. Rāmeśvara: Yes, I had him in L.A. painting by brush. Prabhupāda: What is this building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't recognize it. Oh, the Fritt Collection, it's an art museum. This whole street is full of art museums. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's one gentleman named Fritt. Rāmeśvara: This taxi driver is saying Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Our Jayānanda was driving taxi and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and one day (laughter) he brought to me five thousand dollars. Rāmeśvara: And you used it to print *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rāmeśvara: Was that the time? Prabhupāda: I think, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You kept it then. *Prabhupāda: It was given for publishing Bhagavad*-gītā, but I think Macmillan took it. So I spent it for... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then you put him in charge to sell all the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*, I remember. (Prabhupāda laughs) Jayānanda: (indistinct) Didn't sell too many books, though. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I thought he was the best, most appropriate person to drive you. Prabhupāda: He was chanting and driving. Very good boy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cyavana has been here also. Prabhupāda: Just train him, he is good boy. He has fallen down, just take care of him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, actually the work here needs, you'll see, this building, it actually requires four or five big leaders. Prabhupāda: One may fall down, but you have to take care. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's much better now. Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll do, he's good worker, if you can train him, he's a good worker. He can do very nice. He has fallen in māyā, just take care of him, what can be done? He's good worker, very good worker. He can do intelligent service. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very intelligent, very high*-class, nice devotee. Prabhupāda: He knows accounting. There was no guide, he became alone... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's exactly what he said. Prabhupāda: ...and became spoiled. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said there was just too much for himself alone. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difficulty. As soon as there is lack of good association, one falls a victim. What about that boy, Ṛṣi Kumāra? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he's doing great. He's taken up joint charge of the restaurant. Prabhupāda: He's also very good boy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All day long he cooks, and after he cooks, then the people take the prasādam in the restaurant, he goes out and preaches to them. Prabhupāda: He's an able worker. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he goes out and leads the hari*-nāma party on the street. He's very enthusiastic to make this restaurant very successful. Prabhupāda: But keep watch on him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For the women. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He gets deluded. Well, you know what we've done with all of these people, Prabhupāda, we've... Prabhupāda: If they are disturbed, let them marry. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He doesn't want, he says he knows it's a waste of time, marriage. What we have done with Ṛṣi Kumāra and Bali*-mardana is we are living with them. Like Ṛṣi Kumāra lives with Ādi-keśava Swami. Prabhupāda: Somebody must be with him. Then it is all right. Not alone. Either Cyavana or him, some experienced devotee must be with him. Then they... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do nicely. Prabhupāda: And I think Ṛṣi Kumāra is a good cook also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: My personal opinion is he's the best cook that I've so far seen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Since he has come here the prasādam in the restaurant has at least doubled in the quality. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Completely different prasādam. He's learned the Gujarati style. Kacuris, samosā, every kind of special prep. When we stayed in Kailasa Shiksarya's house when we were first in Bombay, the things that those cooks were cooking, he knows how to cook. Very high class Marwari and Gujarati cooking. Prabhupāda: He's very intelligent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Maṇibandha, he's another one, he's cooking with Ṛṣi Kumāra. Prabhupāda: He's also very intelligent boy, but sometimes spoiled. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a lot of them here. Prabhupāda: Anyway, we have to take care of so many souls. (Karmī yells) What does he say? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said you have a nice car. That's good they like the car. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Ask why him don't you come here? (laughter) Why you are driving taxi? Come here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's amazing how everybody is looking at us. *Prabhupāda: Now, formerly it was thirty*-five, now it is Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda. Everything has doubled in price. This car is very ordinary, but it is because you are in it, Prabhupāda, that they are looking. Ordinarily it is not such a special car. Prabhupāda: What is the make of it? Hari-śauri: LTD. What is it? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's the same, more or less the same car that you had when you were driving in Los Angeles. Hari-śauri: The same as what you had in Melbourne also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a Ford. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles this was Mercedes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Mercury. Right? Mercury? Prabhupāda: No, this is nice car. Rāmeśvara: It's their version of Cadillac, Mercury's version of Cadillac. They cannot understand because we say we are not after material opulence for ourselves, they cannot understand that we drive in these cars. *Prabhupāda: They think that we unnecessarily criticize. But we require everything. But just like a man. When he's alive his decoration, his nice dress, everything is very good. But if he's dead, then it is useless. Similarly, without spiritual consciousness we are dead. Because the body is dead. Because the spirit soul is there, therefore it is moving. The important point is the spirit soul. So if you are simply taking care of the body very nicely, that means you are decorating the dead body. What is the value of it? It is clear? The body is important because the soul is there. So long the life is there, if you decorate the body everyone will appreciate. But if you decorate the dead body, people will say "What a fool he is!" Aprāṇasya hi dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka*-rañjanam. That is simply a popular applause, "Ah, the dead body is decorated," but what is the value of it? Similarly, without spiritual knowledge, this dead civilization simply on the bodily concept of life, it is ludicrous. That we have to condemn. Take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then everything is... Just like one, if there is zero, then it is ten. Another zero, hundred. But without one, simply zero; it is only useless. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That one is Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: And Kṛṣṇa's representative. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya. Prabhupāda: One, if there is one, then zero has value. If there is no one, then simply increasing zeroes, what do we get for that? That is the position. There is no spiritual understanding, they are simply after material advancement. Therefore despite all advancement materially, they are not happy. You cannot, now they are trying to bring life by material combination. It is all impossible, childish. Our scientists, they have come, no? Hari-śauri: Yes, Sadāpūta, yes, they are all here, aren't they? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara here? Hari-śauri: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah. Prabhupāda: Mādhava and Svarūpa. Hari-śauri: Three of them, Mādhava, Svarūpa and Sadāpūta also. Rāmeśvara: Ever since we published that article that they wrote in Back to Godhead, many people have been impressed that "Oh, Ph.D's they are accepting this movement." Many Indian guests in Los Angeles, they all comment that they have read this article, and now they are taking our movement... Prabhupāda: Now I have collected one Indian, four items he is Ph.D. He is Ph.D. in chemistry, Ph.D. in engineering... Hari-śauri: Dr. Sharma? Prabhupāda: Yes. And Ph.D. in pathology. Four, and he's lawyer also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is he going to do? Prabhupāda: He's going to help our, this... [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are bookstalls, look at that. Barnes and Nobles, they are putting up bookstalls here. Rāmeśvara: Another Ph.D. from India has joined our movement in Denver. He just moved into the temple, he has a Ph.D. in psychology. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are horse carriages here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just there. (Plaza Hotel?) *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is Fifty*-seventh? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty*-ninth. They don't want to turn here, huh, Jayānanda? Do you? Go up Fifty-ninth it would be nicer. This is where the parade begins. From here down straight. All the way down Fifth Avenue. *Prabhupāda: The Ratha*-yātrā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. From here all the way down, we go all the way down to the park. Washington Square Park. All the way down, three rathas. It's the biggest avenue. Prabhupāda: Is there any hour limit? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Two or three hours it will take. You've got to get on the right side, Jayānanda. Prabhupāda: It appears more congested than before. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, business is increasing. Prabhupāda: Population are increased. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had a festival to celebrate the Fourth of July in the Battery, down at Battery Park. Four million people attended. We sold prasādam there, over one thousand dollars of prasādam (laughs) was sold from our prasādam cart. Prabhupāda: They like? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. They were selling kacuris, sandwiches. Prabhupāda: This Doubleday Company, they take our books? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah... Rāmeśvara: I don't know. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm not sure. *Rāmeśvara: I don't know. Generally the bookstores, they don't take our books because our distributors are distributing on the street in front of the bookstore, they say it is competition. But the college bookstores, they all take our books. We just got a report from Satsvarūpa Mahārāja that this past month of June in America they sold seventy*-five standing orders. And that is remarkable, because all the schools are closed in June, and still they sold them books. They closed for the summer, and still they are ordering your books. Prabhupāda: In this street I think there is one library office... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's Fifty..., it's either Fifty*-fifth or Fifty-third, and it's called, it's one of main sub-branches. Yes, it's a very well known one. Prabhupāda: Free rent? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Free rent. Rent a safe deposit box for one year and we'll give you an extra six months free." But first you have to pay for one year. Chemical Bank. Huge buildings now everywhere. Prabhupāda: This is Rockefeller? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda, now everything looks like the Rockefeller Plaza. All of the buildings are built in that same style. Very opulent. Now every day I look out the window of our building and I think when it will come that we will have one of these buildings. It won't be long. You can see how big these are, Prabhupāda. This is Sixth Avenue. Prabhupāda: So we are between Sixth Avenue and? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're between Eighth Avenue and Ninth. Actually our building can be seen from here. Hare Kṛṣṇa is on the outside of it. Hari-śauri: I can see it just on the left. Rāmeśvara: Straight ahead. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's on the left straight ahead. It's a brown building on the left side. Hari-śauri: There's a tree on the top. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has gold letters going down the side of it saying Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Hari-śauri: It's the brownish one with the white, little white cabin*-type thing on the top of it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're very lucky, we rented a garage one block away which can house four buses and twenty vans. Only one block away from it, its very unusual. Otherwise... Prabhupāda: You have taken the whole garage? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, otherwise it's not possible to get parking space in New York. See the "Hare Kṛṣṇa" now, Prabhupāda, on the side of the building? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayānanda, maybe you should park on the right side. We can walk across the street rather than getting out. Rāmeśvara: Yes, good idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pull over if you can on the right side, then Prabhupāda can see the building from across the street. [break] Yes, at least for the next five or ten years. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Then you'll have to change again. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then we want the Empire State Building. (laughter) We have a nice banner which flies in front of the building also. I think you should park on the right side, Jayānanda, unless... All right, park on the left. See the banner? Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) *Morning Walk-*-July 9, 1976, Washington D.C. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He wants to help us. He has many degrees. In chemistry, in pathology, in engineering. He said if we have an institute like this... Prabhupāda: Hm. Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...it would be very easy to defeat Māyāvādīs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they claim that they are Vedantists. Prabhupāda: They are nonsense. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they have no bhakti, so we are in the line of Bhaktivedanta, so he said, that this is the way to counteract the so*-called Māyāvādīs or Vedantists. Prabhupāda: They're atheist. More than atheist. They have been described by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as more dangerous than the atheist. Vede nāmāniyā bauddha hoila nāstika, vedāśraya nāstikavāda bauddha ke ādi. They take the shelter of *Vedas* and preach atheism. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they do not accept what it is all said in the *Vedas*. They accept something, and they reject something. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometimes they say that whatever they say must be supplemented from the *Vedas*. It's contradiction. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They support the proposition that in different *Vedas* different things are stressed, therefore... *Prabhupāda: Therefore, you should accept Bhagavad*-gītā, the summarized Veda. Or Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Or Vedānta-sūtra. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's a mystery, why they don't accept Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. *Prabhupāda: Because they cannot poke their nose there. Then it will be cut off. (laughter) But still they are attempting to cheat by reading Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. (indistinct) [break] *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Although, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's somewhat easy for us to convince that Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is the summary study of all the Vedic literatures, how can we take that Bhagavad-gītā is the summary study? *Prabhupāda: It is preliminary study of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Bhagavad-gītā ends, from there Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam begins. [break] Publish your book gradually in the magazine Sa-vijñānam. Rūpānuga: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: In the journal, by.... Step by step. Prabhupāda: Ah. Then publish in a book. Rūpānuga: That's good. Like we did with your *Bhāgavatam* one time, we made little chapter editions. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...when they mention that the trees, the trunk of the trees we'll use for clothes. Barks of trees? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How would they do that? Would they take the same type of... Prabhupāda: They knew how to do. [break] Rūpānuga: ...question about Geology. Prabhupāda: What do I know about geology? Svarūpa Dāmodara: In geology, there are certain rocks, especially in the west coast, they found out that the top layer in the rock is older than the one in the bottom. Upside down. Prabhupāda: Hm. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And they have several explanations, mostly based on speculation. Prabhupāda: Everything speculation. The down portion is older, no? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, the.... In these rocks the upper one is older according to their calculation by dating method, geological dating method and the younger one is at the bottom. First I wanted to contact our Prabhu at the, Bob. Hari-ṣauri: Bob Cohen. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, Bob Cohen our geology.... Sometime Prabhupāda had trouble with this boy? Devotee: In a Back to Godhead article. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are going to contact him. So how do we explain these things? Prabhupāda: Hm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: How do we explain from our point of view? The upside down of the rocks. Prabhupāda: I cannot. First of all, we do not bother for all these things. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they are going to bring up these points, and the guru should say something. But we must know somehow how to counteract them. One point is that the... Prabhupāda: It can be explained, that when there is devastation... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...the rock... Devotee: Turn over. Prabhupāda: ...roll, it was like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Catastrophism. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then the whole thing would be filled up with water. So water course is very heavy. So it can turn even big, big rocks, mountains rolling. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That happens when there is devastation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: At the end of Manu's day, when there is flood? Prabhupāda: End of the day of Brahmā. End of fourteen Manus. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At that time is the earth destroyed, or is it simply covered by water? Prabhupāda: Covered by water. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That can explain many facts, because they're having great difficulty in finding these old fossils, in Siberia, and all these other places, they find some strange fossils, which are not supposed to be there according to their theory. Prabhupāda: Hm. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But if we accept this catastrophism, this can explain many facts. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The rocks also have offspring, if they're living? Prabhupāda: That offspring is mouse. (laughter) There is information the rocks were flying. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mountains, some mountains are flying. Prabhupāda: Yes. In the..., cut off their wings. [break] Devotee (1): ...it's true that people are getting disease and sicknesses as the result of their past activities, pious or sinful. Why is it that it appears that when there is a flu many people are inflicted with that flu? Practically everyone, indiscriminately. Prabhupāda: All of them? Hm. "Birds of the same feather, flock together, see." Devotee (1): (laughs) What about when it happens amongst the community of devotees or some, hepatitis, or malaria, or something of that nature? Prabhupāda: Hm? It is also past sins. Devotee: Purification? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Well the materialists would say, "You're just accepting it that way. The reality is that you're becoming sick just like anyone else." Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (1): The scientist or materialist will say, "You're just becoming sick like anyone else, but you're saying it's just, that you're becoming purified." Prabhupāda: Hm. What you have to do? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's a fact though, when people are suffering they're neutralizing their sinful reactions. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the wrong there? [break] Devotee (1): ...becoming purified from this suffering then why isn't it when we're sick, why is it that we forget Kṛṣṇa, we become disgusted, and after we are sick we don't feel any more advanced than before? [break] Prabhupāda: ...purified, you will not be sick. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...the difference between the materialist and the transcendentalist. Prabhupāda: Hm. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Materialist always thinks that they will try to overcome the laws of nature, and when the laws of nature catch over... Prabhupāda: Śudhyeta satya (?) Sometimes the spiritual master has to suffer for the sinful activities of his disciples. [break] ...this suffering is short cut. For the karmīs it would have been a huge suffering but devotee is (indistinct). Devotee (2): So then if he is sincere, then he should not be so sick in due time, his health should be good if he's practicing. If a devotee is practicing principles, then he should become healthy. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, you cannot avoid sickness. Devotee (2): No, but I mean, overall. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Devotees are generally healthier than karmīs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: Once there was this brahmacārī he used to complain to you about how sick he was all the time, and you said, "Are you not brahmacārī? Are you not following the brahmacārī principles?" Did you imply that if he were doing it sincerely he would not be so sick all the time? Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Devotee is sick, and he also knows that this is the mercy of the Lord so he doesn't complain in its real sense but the material body is bound to suffer. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...you are convinced that you are not this body then there is no suffering. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, that's the clue. *Prabhupāda: As you identify with the body, then you suffer. [break] ...body is damaged, you are not damaged, but because you have got attachment for the motor car, you suffer. [break] ...song by Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura, yāhā smṛti nāhi yār, saṁsāra*-bandhana kahata. One who has forgotten that he is this body, he has no suffering. [break] Devotee (1): Then, if Sanātana Gosvāmī had all those infections in his body, and Lord Caitanya embrace him, he felt so distressed and so lowly. Prabhupāda: Hm, so (this) instructs us that even Sanātana Gosvāmī had to suffer. What you are nonsense. You should not be sorry for suffering. That is the instruction. Why you are trying to avoid suffering? That is the instruction. Devotee (1): Sanātana Gosvāmī, he accepted this sickness as a result of his own sinful past activities, he was so humble. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: So we should follow that example, and accept like that. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the instruction. Tat te 'nukampām [SB 10.14.8]. "It is Your mercy, my Lord, that I would have suffered a hundred times more than this, You are giving me little suffering." That is devotee's view. That "I am so sinful, I would have suffered hundred times more than what I am suffering. But You are so kind that You are giving me little suffering and adjusting that (indistinct)." [break] ...thinks like that, for him, back to home back to Godhead is guaranteed. That is the bhagavata*-dharma. Muktipadeśa dayābhāk. One who lives like that, doesn't care for suffering, goes on with his duty. That person is sure to go back to home, back to Godhead. Just like a son is sure to inherit the father's property. Dayābhāk, this word is used. Muktipadeśa dayābhāk. Literally, heritage. Ha? What is called? Devotee: Inheritance. Prabhupāda: Inheritance, yes. Legally inheritance. [break] ...we're afraid of suffering. Let there be so many, what is that? Let me do my duty. Svarūpa Dāmodara: From these sufferings actually we know that this material world is full of misery. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So how to get out this misery that is the point, next step. Prabhupāda: And those who know (indistinct), he is not hankering after how to get out of the (indistinct). They do not care for (indistinct). Svarūpa Dāmodara: Isn't it in the sense the material concept? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Devotee (2): ...have to cultivate this tolerance, not only a physical pain, but sometimes other pains. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) tṛṇād api sunīcena. Tolerance when they (indistinct), everyone is (indistinct), he doesn't (indistinct). Taror api sahiṣṇunā. You have to learn these things. Rūpānuga: Lord Caitanya says if we are tolerant then we can chant the holy name of the Lord purely. Devotee: But the scientists, they'll laugh at us, and they'll say, "we are helping to..." Prabhupāda: And we laugh at us, so what is the wrong? We laugh at them. We tell them. So that struggle will go on. Rūpānuga: But we will laugh last. Devotee (1): No, they'll say, "You're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, but I can give you this pill and I'll take away your pain," or, "I can give you this medicine and correct your disease. You're chanting, but I am not seeing a practical result." Prabhupāda: No, I will say, "because I'm chanting you, you are my servant, you have brought the pill. (laughter) Because I am chanting, therefore Kṛṣṇa has sent the pill through you." Rūpānuga: "You're simply working." Prabhupāda: "You're simply working as my servant, that's all." Rūpānuga: They can make.... We'll chant and dance and they can make the car to take us on kīrtana, make the pills so we can keep healthy. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: The best pill is this hari*-nāma. *Rūpānuga: Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are the great physician. Everyone should come under your treatment. They're taking this hari*-nāma as a bitter pill. But we are tasting it now, and after chanting and chanting, we're tasting, it's becoming sweeter and sweeter. Prabhupāda: Hmm. This is all of us? Devotees: Oh, yes. (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 9, 1976, New York Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To the right, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hari-śauri: (to devotee:) I have to set up for massage. You can do the machine? It's recording now. Prabhupāda: Very nice sitting place. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Above all the noise in New York City, too. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa;: It's not so noisy up here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pālikā wants to ask you something. Pālikā: Would you like to take fruit now, or prasādam as regular? *Prabhupāda: No, no, I have taken breakfast. So Bali*-mardana Prabhu, doing all right? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those are your servants' quarters, and the kitchen, and there's also a dresser in your bedroom. Prabhupāda: There is any closet with lock? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. This closet here is a walk-in closet. Small room with a lock. You also have a cabinet that locks. It's a big walk*-in closet. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. So I shall again stay in New York? Nice place. *Ādi*-keśava: From this window here you can see the Empire State Building and all the big buildings in New York. Prabhupāda: Oh, very nice. Rāmeśvara: There will not be any noise here either, because this is the eleventh floor. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: So it's very peaceful for translating work. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (pause) My Guru Mahārāja left alone, so he has sent so many gurus to take care of me. You are all my Guru Mahārāja's representatives. *Bali*-mardana: We are guru dāsa. Prabhupāda: So you are taking care. I am very much obliged to you. I sometimes think in my childhood I was very, very pet son of my father. I have admitted that in that book I told. My father was not very rich man, but still, whatever I wanted, he would give me. He never chastised me, but full love. Then of course I got friends and I was married, so by Kṛṣṇa's grace everyone loved me. (laughs) And I came to this foreign country without any acquaintance. So Kṛṣṇa has sent so many fathers to love me. In that way I am fortunate. At the last stage if I live very peacefully, that is a great mercy of Kṛṣṇa. By Kṛṣṇa's mercy everything is possible. So we shall stick to Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet and everything is possible. What is that book? After Kṛṣṇa book? No, after Kṛṣṇa book, that yellow...? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. Prabhupāda: : So distribute this prasādam. So Eighth Canto is also? Rāmeśvara: It is going out to the printer in the month of July, this month, by the end of the month. Prabhupāda: Oh, first part. Rāmeśvara: Yes, but there is also a third part to the Seventh Canto, that is coming any day. Prabhupāda: So Cyavana Mahārāja, you are making your mind fixed up? Cyavana: Yes, I'm feeling like my old self again. Prabhupāda: Yes, you are good boy. Whatever is done is done. Now remain with Vaiṣṇavas and fix up your mind. After all, it is a struggle between māyā and Kṛṣṇa. Sometimes due to our weakness we may fall down, but we should take again strength and stand up. Do that, and combinedly push this movement in America. It is a good field. And if you can establish this movement in America, whole world will take. That is my mission. What is the length and breadth of this house area? *Ādi*-keśava: I don't know exactly. Prabhupāda: This is the..., no? The hall is very big. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See, it goes around, Prabhupāda. Rāmeśvara: You can walk around. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can show you. Rāmeśvara: On each floor it is like that. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every floor has about twenty*-five to thirty rooms. Prabhupāda: Not only this portion. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, all the way round. *Bali*-mardana: The long part is in the front. It goes all the way down. Prabhupāda: I shall take my massage. Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Evening Darçana-*-July 10, 1976, New York Prabhupāda: That was not killing. So instead of wasting his time, he said "I don't care for your Vedas. It is my order that you stop if you love me." Here is... You cannot open slaughterhouse, giving reference to the Vedas or any sacrifice, either in the Muhammadans, Jews and everyone. They also make sacrifice. One day in the year they sacrifice. It is not that they recommend open slaughterhouse. This is all nonsense, rākṣasa. That sacrifice also recommended in this sense, that you cannot stop animal killing; *there will be a class of men who'll eat meat. To give them some concession, so this is recommended, "All right, if you want to eat meat, you sacrifice." Amongst the Hindus, just like Kālī*-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā, the animal-eaters, they are given this concession, that "If you want to eat meat, you just worship Goddess Kālī," and this Goddess Kālī worshiping is recommended on the amāvasyā, on the dark moon night, one day in a month, and the dead of night. So if one goes on eating meat in this way, one day in a month and dead of night, then he automatically will give it up. "So much botheration. Better give it up." Actually denies. "Yes, you can eat once in a month and at the dead of night, when everyone will sleep, nobody can hear the screaming of the animal." These are the recommendations. That is indirectly denying. If one is intelligent, he'll accept it that "Why so much botheration for eating meat? Better give it up." Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are so many gurus... *Prabhupāda: No, we are not talking of so many gurus... We are talking of real guru. That's all, real guru. Real guru is he who talks in disciplic succession of Kṛṣṇa. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. That is guru. The bhumi-phala (?) guru is no guru. Avaiṣṇavo gurur na sa syāt. "Anyone who is not Vaiṣṇava, he is not guru." Or He says in the Bhagavad-gītā, Bhagavān, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68]. Find out this. He is guru who is preaching what Kṛṣṇa has taught. He is guru, not that anyone and everyone becomes guru. No. If you want to be cheated by such rascal guru, that is your business, but who is guru, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. No? Anyone who preaches the teachings of Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "You become a guru on My order." "How shall I become guru? I have no knowledge." Oh, you don't require any knowledge to manufacture. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "Simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, you become guru." Everyone can become. The instruction is there. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. We say the same thing, not that I have become Kṛṣṇa, not my... You say that "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Then you become guru. Kṛṣṇa instruction, not to become Kṛṣṇa. If you want to become Kṛṣṇa, then you are not guru; *you are cheater. Suppose you are working for master. If you say, "My master has fixed up this price. You cannot change it," then you are honest salesman. And if you place yourself that "I am the master," then you are cheater. The cheater cannot be teacher. Teacher is he who simply teaches what Kṛṣṇa has said, that's all. He's teacher. That is not difficult. Everyone can do. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha, tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "Whomever you meet, you simply speak to him the instruction of Kṛṣṇa." Then you become guru. And if you don't say that, if you manufacture your own words, then you are cheater, you are not teacher. So the so-called gurus, they are cheater. They want to become Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are cheater. And it is very easy thing. If you cheat people that "You take this mantra, and you become God..." Is God so easy thing, to become God? But they want to be cheated. "Purchasing mantra, I shall become God." They want to be cheated. They do not think that "Whether I can actually become God?" They do not take the weight of His existence. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. So what is the time now. Devotees: (offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Prasādam (Hindi) (end) *Morning Walk-*-July 10, 1976, New York Hari-śauri: Everyone is infected with this "Life comes from chemicals." That I was talking to the air hostess on the plane coming, and she said, "But life comes from chemicals." This is the way everybody's taught in the schools, they don't know any different and they don't think about it, they have no intelligence to understand. Prabhupāda: And as soon as we say that you take an egg and find out the chemicals and put it into the incubator or under a chicken, get life, "No, wait millions of years." This bluffing. And this moon planet going means Arizona. That is now disclosed. They take photographs in the Arizona. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Take photographs where? Hari-śauri: In Arizona. There's an article, and it showed a picture of Mars and it compared, there's supposed to be this canyon four miles deep. So they said it compares to the Grand Canyon in Arizona, like that. So Prabhupāda said that by even mentioning Arizona they've revealed themselves. And he told one story about, there's a man, he heard a noise in his room, and he said, "Ah, who is that?" And immediately the reply came, "Oh, I'm not stealing." So even without asking, they've revealed themselves by saying Arizona, even mentioning Arizona. Prabhupāda: Why these rascals compare it with Arizona? As if there is no other place in the world. Everything they are doing in Arizona. All photograph in this place. Now they have been caught. I was always protesting, "These rascals have never gone." For the last ten years I've protested. Whenever they asked me, I say straightly, "It is all childish. They have never gone, neither they'll be able to go." That has been proof available. Now they do not talk about it. That is finished, all propaganda, finished. Now they have taken another... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mars. *Prabhupāda: ...to keep their service in order. This is going on, all cheating. To keep people in darkness and exploit them. The so*-called swamis exploiting, yogis exploiting, politician exploiting, scientists exploiting, philosophers exploiting. What is the position of the world? And this is the opportunity, human life, to know everything, to solve all the problems. They are not given the opportunity, they are kept in darkness. The demons. "There is no God, science is everything, life is produced from chemicals, and there is no living entities on other planets." They are simply show. This planet is full of..., it is all scientists, and they are vacant. And we have to believe that. Perhaps for the first time I am raising protest against all this nonsense. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is such a challenge. Your statements are such a challenge to their so*-called science that they're still in shock. I still think that they do not take us seriously yet because it's such a difference to what they are saying. Soon, gradually, they'll take... Prabhupāda: Therefore we have engaged these scientists. They are going to publish one paper. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. *Prabhupāda: Sa*-vijñānam. Hari-śauri: That's the name of the paper. Prabhupāda: And other scientists have joined. Scientist in four subject matters, an Indian gentleman. Hari-śauri: I think he's here now. Prabhupāda: He's here? He has come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What's his name? Hari-śauri: Sharma. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no. Different one. Hari-śauri: This one has four Ph.D.s. Prabhupāda: He has got some international name. So he says that "It's great fortune I have met you." He's now realizing his mistakes. He has still some respect for Vivekananda; that I did not disturb; he might misunderstand. Actually this Vivekananda rascal, what he has done? What is his contribution? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You always add on "rascal" whenever you mention his name. Prabhupāda: No, no, what he has done? He has ruined the Vedic culture. Hari-śauri: Completely misrepresented it. Prabhupāda: And the Bon Mahārāja is his follower. He's in name a disciple of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, but he's a servant of Vivekananda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's very similar to him. Prabhupāda: He's a great appreciator of Vivekananda. He has put in his curriculum Vivekananda philosophy, Gandhi philosophy. Rascal, what philosophy they have got? Hari-śauri: He mentioned all the nonsense people. He put a circular out, he mentioned Rama Tirtha, Vivekananda, all these nonsense. Prabhupāda: Now I am convinced he's a rascal. He's nothing but a great rascal. My Guru Mahārāja rejected him. Therefore he was called back, rascal, he used to say like that, banamānuṣa. Banamānuṣa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bon? Prabhupāda: His name is Bon Mahārāja, and my Guru Mahārāja used to say banamānuṣa. Banamānuṣa means the gorilla. (laughter) He is black also like gorilla. He has given so much trouble to Guru Mahārāja. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should go now, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Called him back: "Call this rascal back." Every month he was being sent seven hundred rupees. That, in those days seven hundred rupees is a big amount. So at least ten time value has gone up. Seven hundred means seven thousand. He was spending for nothing, and he was publishing report, "Swamiji is playing on harmonium." And photo. This is first year, second, like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And he told your Guru Mahārāja that "Unless we serve meat, they will not come." Prabhupāda: Ācchā! I do not know that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you have once said that he had written to your Guru Mahārāja that letter. I heard that, that "Unless we serve meat," in England, when he was in England. Prabhupāda: Yes, he was in England. Just like these rascals... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ramakrishna Mission. Prabhupāda: They serve muragī, this chicken prasādam. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Chicken prasādam! Hari-śauri: You told us in Madras that your Guru Mahārāja used to call them the Muragī Mission. *Prabhupāda: Another Godbrother used to say Muragī Mission, Chicken Mission. (laughter) He was so much against this Ramakrishna Mission and Vivekananda, so much. He knew all history of Ramakrishna. He became impotent. He was woman*-hunter and therefore uneducated. In the village he was simply hunting after this low-class woman. Therefore his brother got him married. When he was married he was impotent. So therefore he planned, "Oh, I see everyone mother. You are my mother." And people said, "Oh, he's so realized that even his wife is his mother." Rascal. Where is that another person in the Vedic culture, Vyāsadeva, or, they are also married, who has called his wife mother? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone but the wife. Prabhupāda: No, no, why one should not call a wife a mother? Is that very great advancement? But this rascal was impotent, he had no other alternative, so he manufactured some idea and people thought, "Oh, he's so devotee of goddess of Kālī that he sees even his wife as mother." This story he told me by Guru Mahārāja personally. He was talking with me privately somewhere, although I was a bad householder. (laughs) He was very kind upon me. And whatever is being done by his blessing, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, what time do you take your bath? Because I can get hot..., you know we have a big heater in this building. So for hot water... Hari-śauri: Sometimes between quarter to one. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I make sure there's hot water at that time? *Hari-śauri: You can put it through the pipe system? Anytime from twelve*-thirty on. (in car) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When the devotees heard about your idea for a neon sign on the top of the building, they all went "Jaya!" They like that idea. Prabhupāda: What is this street? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ninth Avenue. Sometime I'd like to show you the garage. Prabhupāda: On Ninth Avenue there are many grocery shops. Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Rādhāvallabha: Don't you want a lead car? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is the lead car? *Ādi*-keśava: They don't know the way; I do. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Go straight on, I want to show Prabhupāda the garage. I'll show you where we have our garage. This whole area, all this brown area, all the way where the yellow stripe is. Big, big. It's huge. Prabhupāda: Down. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Down, the whole downstairs. Ten thousand square foot. Rāmeśvara: That's the same..., ten thousand square feet is the same size as the book warehouse in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Oh. The height is less. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Height is... How high is it, Ādi*-keśava? *Ādi*-keśava: Ceiling is twenty feet. Rāmeśvara: Same height. Prabhupāda: Same height, huh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The rent, this is the middle of Manhattan, only one block from the temple, so we got it for about $3.75 a square foot, very cheap, and on a three year lease, which is also very good. Prabhupāda: What is this road? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tenth Avenue. Prabhupāda: Our temple is between Eighth and Ninth? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Jayānanda has been working very faithfully. Prabhupāda: They've come to see what they are doing here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Blow the horn. You want to get out, Prabhupāda? (walking) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have rented it from the railroad. This whole area is eight hundred dollars, we have rented. First class*-electricity, water, it's first class. We can go around this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh, very strong. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Jayānanda heard what you said about him. He said, "I will never let it happen again." Prabhupāda: Yes, now it is... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at in there, Prabhupāda, this is really strong. Prabhupāda: Yes, no, if you keep it very nicely... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The other carts are..., this one is not yet finished as much as the others. Jayānanda, did you build this cart? Jayānanda: No, no. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Chicago's old cart. Not the last year's one, an old one, we got it from them, they did not want it anymore. This will be Subhadrā's. They only want one cart, the one they have now. So we called them up and we said "Oh, don't throw it away, we'll take it." Rāmeśvara: How tall will they be with the canopies? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty foot high. These are the ones that Jayānanda and the men have built from scratch here in New York. You can see the powerful wheels. He heard what you had said, and then he decided to make it. Prabhupāda: As powerful as the other wheels? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More powerful. Look at them, Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is steel. This is steel. He built the carts in Australia. What is your opinion? Hari-śauri: These are fantastic. Jayānanda: See, these are like this, flat plate on the outside, then there's a piece of chain that goes around the inside. Hari-śauri: Amazing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Think this is strong enough, Hari-śauri? Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he's covered it with canvas. This has rubber tire, and then it's covered by canvas. Devotee: ...steel. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pretty big carts. These carts have the same mechanism, they go up and down, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is John. He's always helping us with the building. He works very hard. Which cart will Śrīla Prabhupāda ride on? Jayānanda? Which cart will Prabhupāda ride on? *Ādi*-keśava: We wanted to know which one. Which one would you like to ride on? Hari-śauri: Balarāma's cart goes in front? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Jagannātha's was going in front in San Francisco, then Subhadrā's. Hari-śauri: ...told us Balarāma's is at the front, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, really. Hari-śauri: And then Subhadrā's then Jagannātha at the back. That's the way they do it in Purī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What's that cart, Jayānanda? *Jayānanda: This is a little Ratha*-yātrā cart from last year. We use it as an advertisement for the Ratha-yātrā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it's a good advertisement. Quite an improvement from last year to this year. *Prabhupāda: The whole go*-down is rented. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, look at the area we get for eight hundred dollars, it's a great deal. Prabhupāda: Eight hundred dollars per month? *Ādi*-keśava: For the whole period, for three months. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three months. It's very good, because it gives protection for working in the sunshine and because it's so open there's a lot of air blowing, it's very cool for the workers. Prabhupāda: What is this factory? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayānanda, what kind of factory is this? Jayānanda: Steel. They make sheet metal. It's owned by the railroad company. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Another thing we're using it for is we're using this for parking garage also. So we save the money for that, too. [break] (in car) Rāmeśvara: No, they have just reduced to one cart. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They only had one cart. This was their old cart. Then last year they built a new cart. So this was just in storage there, not being used. Prabhupāda: It is very strongly built. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it is first*-class. So we sent our big truck there and we picked it up, and we brought it here and assembled it, and now we have three carts. And these carts will be disassembled and kept in the garage. And the nice thing is that we are now on 60th Street and Eleventh Avenue and the festival is on 59th and Fifth. Very easy to get there. [break] These are mostly warehouses, Prabhupāda, this part of the city. Rāmeśvara: The city of New York is the most mismanaged city in the United States. The city government has a big debt. They borrow money from the banks and they cannot pay it back. So they..., the banks were closing the debt, the loans, calling for the loan, and they had no money, so they were firing everyone and there was great unemployment, and finally the United States government had to give them a free gift of money to bail them out. It is the worst management of any city in America. One of the big reasons is because of welfare. They give away free money to so many people in New York who don't want to work. Prabhupāda: Yes, welfare is actually waste of money. But social construction is so bad they have to give welfare. If they take our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we can stop this welfare money, let them pay. Rāmeśvara: They don't know how to engage all these millions of people. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rāmeśvara: They don't know how to engage them, so they just give them free money. Also famous for its labor unions, the most powerful in America. They force the city to pay the highest wages for the garbage men, for school teachers, the highest anywhere in the country. So that's another reason they are in debt so much. (out of car, walking) *Ādi*-keśava: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's one of our posters for our Ratha-yātrā. Prabhupāda: Yes. What they are doing here(?). Rāmeśvara: The highest paid garbage men in America. Prabhupāda: Still it is unclean. This is subway. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it's a little quieter(?) from now on, Prabhupāda. This is the Plaza Hotel. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Have you ever heard of it, the Plaza? [break] Growing out of stone. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is little crack, they are growing. Devotee: Even on the roof of the building where we were sitting last night, between the cracks of the bricks on the roof, there were little plants coming out. Prabhupāda: Between the cracks in the stone. [break] (in car) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When Balavanta was running for mayor of Atlanta he met him, so there's a good chance that if he gets elected to be President then that's easy opportunity to see the President. Prabhupāda: What we'll do, seeing him? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, right. Hari-śauri: At least, though, if he's favorable, if he likes us a little, it may give us, ah... Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Rāmeśvara: Nobody can imagine what they do in all these office buildings. There are millions of offices. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're going to take a ride down Fifth Avenue. Hari-śauri: This is the parade route? *Ādi*-keśava: Yes. You can see there's no wires, so we don't even have to bring the top down except for the very end entering into Washington Square Park. Prabhupāda: [break] He has told that we have got already a copy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your *Bhāgavatam* was here? Hari-śauri: Where was that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This library is the biggest library in the country. Forty*-second street. You can go back up on Madison and Park. [break] Rāmeśvara: ...carts all the way down. *Ādi*-keśava: It's fifty-two blocks, so it's going to take us at least two hours. Prabhupāda: What is that? Rāmeśvara: About two to three hours. *Hari-śauri: The parade, Ratha*-yātrā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two hours. [break] Prabhupāda: Lord Rāma's, what is this? Hari-śauri: There's shop there with a sign of Lord Rāma's. Rāmeśvara: Train station? Grand Central? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Grand Central Station. *Ādi*-keśava: You want to go on the upper level and around? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...underneath there is subway. Rāmeśvara: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: About hundred yards below. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, quite far below. Beautiful church here, St. Bartholomew's Church. This is the Seagram's Building. Yes, this is Dhṛṣṭadyumna's father's building. The whole building, the Seagram's building. Rāmeśvara: It's a liquor company. Prabhupāda: Liquor? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His father is the president of the biggest liquor manufacturer in the whole world. Prabhupāda: And father, and son is no liquor. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Son is sannyāsa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 375 Park Avenue. Prabhupāda: Like Prahlāda. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very big building. Prabhupāda: Other brothers he has got? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he has two other brothers. Prabhupāda: They are with father? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, yes, one of them is an architect. And the other one is a failure. He's not doing anything yet. Dhṛṣṭadyumna is the eldest son, though. Prabhupāda: Eldest? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then his father must be young man. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His father is about fifty. Prabhupāda: That's young. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dhṛṣṭadyumna is about twenty*-six. Prabhupāda: That's quite young. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he is sorry. Prabhupāda: Eldest son. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they admit that his life is, they admit that his character is very much improved. That they admit, but now they'd like him to come back. Rāmeśvara: And join their business. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These posters are from Reverend Moon, advertising his big Yankee Stadium appearance. *Ādi*-keśava: Fiasco. Hari-śauri: It says "God Bless America." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's the title of it, "God Bless America." But who is God? He says "I am God." Prabhupāda: No, he has taken advantage, that "So many rascals are coming from India, God, why not from the Christian league? I become God." He's taking advantage. He's intelligent man. So many gods are coming from India, why not from Korea? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's the first Korean god. Rāmeśvara: He's very intelligent. He's big in Korea. Multimillionaire. Hari-śauri: He makes rifles. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has a big factory that makes weapons. Rāmeśvara: He hates the Communists. He hates them. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why the American government likes him. A lot of big politicians in America are backing him because he's anti*-Communist and he's a big man in Korea. Prabhupāda: So he's already a big man. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he's an industrialist. Rāmeśvara: He became famous during the Korean war with the Chinese. He fought against the Chinese, and then he became very wealthy. As a result of that war he became very wealthy. He was selling ammunition. Prabhupāda: America was in favor of Korea? Rāmeśvara: They were trying to prevent the Chinese from conquering. Prabhupāda: During Truman's? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are the kind of tables we want to put on the balcony. Remember I showed you that place, our patio on the third floor. So I want to put those kind of tables in the restaurant. Rāmeśvara: Like a snack bar. [break] ...problems in New York is in the schools they cannot control the violence. The students are very violent. They sometimes fight their teachers. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When I was going to school, I grew up in New York, here in Manhattan, twenty years ago probably, and sometimes there would be children's gangs, and they would come in and beat the teachers. Prabhupāda: That is the... Killed, in the... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our school one teacher was killed by such a gang. Rāmeśvara: This is still a big problem. And the teachers are also very militant. They blackmail the city that, "Unless you give us more money, we refuse to..." Then they close the schools. They go on strike. The teachers have joined a union, and they are very militant, they always go on strike. So sometimes the school is closed half the year. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ādi*-keśava, I want to show Prabhupāda the banner, so maybe you can stop... Hari-śauri: In a lot of big cities that's a major problem now. They can't get any teachers to teach there because the children are so violent and uncontrollable that the teachers are just too scared to work there. Prabhupāda: In our Gurukula we'll improve. But the parents do not want that their children should be religious, sādhu. Rāmeśvara: In these schools, the children are given drugs by their schoolmates. Even at an early age, six, twelve years old, ten years old, they are smoking cigarettes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not only cigarettes, marijuana also. Rāmeśvara: And all types of drugs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I wanted to show you this banner closely, Prabhupāda, that we have a big banner, this is permanently hanging outside our building. You'll see it shows a picture of a devotee dancing with "Hare Kṛṣṇa" over it. See? Very attractive, people can see it. [break] "Founder-Ācārya His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founded 1966." (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 10, 1976, New York Prabhupāda: So one thing is that when they are so much careful, that means the book is reacting. Otherwise why they are so careful that they may not come? What do you think? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, sometimes they specifically say, "The others may come, but that one man, we don't want him here." (laughs) He gets out twice as many books as anybody else. Prabhupāda: So many books, also not many books, why they are so much afraid of distributing these books? Devotee (1): It means that the book is potent. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (1): It means that the books are potent. We are affecting the material energy. Prabhupāda: Everywhere in government, India especially, they do not want this movement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the general tendency is... Prabhupāda: But people are appreciating, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness catches." They're now appreciating. Devotee (1): Was that a recent article? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the general people are taking it up more and more. I mean there is a growing number of interested persons. Prabhupāda: That he has written. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not only are there numbers of us increasing, but there are many people who come once a week, once every month, who get magazines regularly. That number is increasing beyond what we can imagine, because it's due to the book distribution, Prabhupāda. We're coming due to two things, first the books, and second the association of devotees. But there's a general mass of people that are coming who are just getting the book, and they are beginning to follow simply on account of reading your books. Devotee (1): This is a big article. Wow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's another magazine article, like that. Hari-śauri: Rādhāvallabha's got it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is he? Hari-śauri: I don't know. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I asked, there's another very special magazine came out, and I asked Rādhāvallabha to bring it and present it to you. It's from New York, but I wanted him to read some of the things. He read the whole thing, it's a whole magazine devoted to meditation groups, and they have featured our society as the best. It's clear, our society was featured more than any others. They mentioned Maharishi and so many others, but they gave... Prabhupāda: We are also mentioned. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They gave us the most space in the magazine. Hari-śauri: They did it in sections. There was a bit about kīrtana, there was a section about shaving the head, there's a whole section about Kṛṣṇa prasādam, how to offer it and cook it and everything. It was very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's getting it ready. He wants to read you certain things in the magazine. He likes to prepare things to discuss with you, Rādhāvallabha, controversial topics. Prabhupāda: What is that controversial? (laughter) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's so nice, he reads things so on the walks, he can throw out scientific arguments and other things. He likes to do that. It's really funny, there's one article, one advertisement in the back of this magazine, meditation magazine. It says "Special offer: send in twenty*-five dollars and you will learn how to do transcendental meditation in one evening. And if you are not satisfied, you get your money back, but you get to keep your own private mantra." This book is a real..., it really shows you what the whole scene on spiritual groups is, how phony they are. Except ours. Ours appears very legitimate from the magazine. But these others are complete hypocrisy. Hari-śauri: He especially canes Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he hates him. *Hari-śauri: They did an experiment, and they tried out..., if one chants... He claims that you have to have a special mantra that comes from him, and that will give you the bliss from transcendental meditation. But they did experiments where they just made up any mantra, just a few words, and concentrated on that, and the effect was exactly the same*-sleep. Sleep, they enter into a... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Semiconscious. Hari-śauri: Yes, a very low conscious level. The metabolism is very much slowed down. The breathing and heart rate and everything goes right down, and they stay like that, completely relaxed, for twenty minutes, and then for a few minutes they come out. That is the... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can also do that; we'll hit them with our shoes. (laughter) For twenty minutes they can go unconsciousness. Free, we don't charge. Hari-śauri: This opening comment in this magazine is very good, it says, "What is surprising about the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is not its conquest of the West, the USA in particular. The cultural impact of this institution, borne on the shoulders of Westerners in the main, has already reached amazing proportions in India." Prabhupāda: That is my policy. Devotee (1): That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew. That's why they are afraid of you in India, Prabhupāda. The government is very much afraid. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, government is alarmed. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well how will they try to stop us? Prabhupāda: Through restrictive government(?). (door opens) Who is...? Let him come. Devotee (1): Here he comes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu? Prabhupāda wanted to see that boy*-Arjuna Mallick? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I went to find him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I sent someone to look for him, they haven't come back. You haven't seen him? It would be nice, because Prabhupāda wanted to see him. Prabhupāda: You know him? Arjuna Mallick? Hari-śauri: I only saw him just this morning. Prabhupāda: Just find him. Hari-śauri: But I have no idea where he's staying. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 703 is the room number. Prabhupāda: All right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara is looking. Hari-śauri: This first paragraph recognizes how in the last two years especially our esteem has improved. It says "One has to see for oneself..." Prabhupāda: Ah, that Sadajivitlal you know. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, very well. Prabhupāda: He says about me that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has smeared the black carbon of all other swamis." (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Black carbon. You know Sadajivitlal from Bombay. Devotee: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He used to get very angry. He said, "I like your Prabhupāda very much, but why does he have to criticize all of our gurus?" Prabhupāda: Now he is realizing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because at Cross Maidan you were speaking very boldly that all these others are cheating. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are cheating. Is there any meaning that you pay so many dollars and take the mantra? Mantra is such a thing for business? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In this meditation magazine one of the things they sell, the special techniques is you take a ping*-pong ball, ping-pong, you know, that table tennis? And you cut it in half and you place the two halves on your eyes, and then that is called samādhi. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Who has said? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll show you the picture when he brings the magazine. They show a person very seriously meditating on two halves of a ping*-pong ball. You have to pay for it. (laughter) Devotee (1): Would you like to go up on the roof today, Prabhupāda? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda said the sun is too much. Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa, he's been doing all of our, he's practically done the whole arrangement for the Ratha*-yātrā. Jayānanda is building, and he has done all of the permits, advertising, publicity, the poster, working at least fifteen hours a day for the last month very hard, to make it a very successful festival. I was thinking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that Haṁsadūta was telling me that he is planning to make... Prabhupāda: I think this article was dictated by Haṁsadūta. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah. Prabhupāda: Our interviewer came. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was telling me that he was planning to make thousands of men, convert thousands of Indians. I was wondering, if thousands of Indians join us, how will the government feel? Prabhupāda: They cannot check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really, they won't stop us. Prabhupāda: If they want to stop it, it will increase. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, right. Especially in Bengal, as soon as the Bengalis know that something is against the government, then they get very vehement. Devotee: It's encouraging when they try to resist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They call us sāhebs. It says "What urges the sāhebs and memasāhebs." That's how they refer to us. Prabhupāda: Our Māyāpura temple is known as sāheb mandira. In Vṛndāvana, English, iṁrejī. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gopāla told me that the guesthouse is doing better. He said that only that eleven rooms right now are occupied by nonpaying guests, and out of the overall forty*-four rooms, only four rooms are occupied by devotees. The devotees have been shifted elsewhere. And Guṇārṇava has been managing. Prabhupāda: That Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa boy was in Vṛndāvana? Hari-śauri: Stoka Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Stoka, he has left. Hari-śauri: He's back in Los Angeles now. Prabhupāda: He does not stick anywhere. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Whew! This picture of Ratha*-yātrā in London is very impressive. Prabhupāda: With smaller rathas. Hari-śauri: Yes, palanquins. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the crowd is bigger than ever. Devotee: Yes, huge crowd. *Ādi*-keśava: That's when we ah... Toṣaṇa, isn't that the picture that you showed them to show what our carts look like? He told the police, to get our permit, that our carts were like those little small rathas, so that we could get the permit. He said that we were having a parade with hand-pulled floats. When they thought of hand-pulled floats, they thought of little wagons. Hari-śauri: They're going to get a shock. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's breaking the news to them slowly. Hari-śauri: We did that in Melbourne. But then gradually we let them see. Then they took us out for a trial run and everything. [break] Prabhupāda: Note down in the account book. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...presents us as a bona fide Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Vaiṣṇava cult. Says that the ISKCON center, the Māyāpura..., "ISKCON plans to build in Māyāpura a world center for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will comprise an enormous..." Prabhupāda: This news has been very much advertised. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When will we begin? Prabhupāda: As soon as we get the land. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The land is coming along? Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The land is coming along? Prabhupāda: Yes, government... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are going ahead with it. Prabhupāda: Two officials are in great favor. One Mr. Choudhuri and Mr. Ganguli. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says that the temple will be so big that India has never seen such a huge temple. Prabhupāda: Choudhuri's wife has challenged that "If you are Hindu, then you will do it." *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To her husband. Oh. (laughter) It tells about, it quotes you as saying that how you began this movement. Two boys joined you, Chuck and Bruce*-Brahmānanda and Acyutānanda, Charles Barnett and Bruce Scharf. Prabhupāda: Charles is called Chuck? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: It's called rajkacuri. (laughter) *Bali*-mardana: Stuffed with dāl, potato, tamarind sauce and sour cream. Devotee (1): Ṛṣi's making up for lost time. Prabhupāda: Where you learned this? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: In Kailash Saksarya's. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: From Kailash Saksarya's cook. At least I learned something there. Prabhupāda: From that cook, Kailash's cook? *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: Yes. *Prabhupāda: He was very expert. In India, a girl, if she could cook nicely, then she is perfect. There is a ceremony, it is called bahubhat(?). After marriage the girl comes to her father*-in-law's house and there is a ceremony called bahubhat. In that bahubhat, the girl is to cook and distribute this food to all the relatives of her husband. If they say it is excellent, then she is accepted in this family. *Bali*-mardana: What if they say it is not excellent? Prabhupāda: Nobody says. (laughter) But the ceremony is made. The social system in India is that "If I do not accept your food, then I do not take you within my inner circle. You remain outside." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a great offense if you offer someone prasādam and they refuse. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means I am not accepting you as intimate. And if he accepts, then you cannot deny his friendship. About one hundreds years ago in Bengal in the aristocratic circle, the guests invited and very sumptuously food distributed, and then the gentlemen, guests, they come and see only, they will simply say "Oh, it is very nicely done." They'll not eat, and go away. Then the foodstuff will be distributed among the servants. This was aristocracy. They'll not eat, they will simply see and appreciate, "Oh, you have so many varieties, very nice." Then they'll go. And the household servants and others, they eat it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why didn't they eat it? Prabhupāda: That was the custom. *Bali*-mardana: That is a dry philosophy. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You have seen this article? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: Other news, after Mars? No? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I haven't seen the newspapers yet. Might have some more, been taking pictures, photographs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda explained that the picture they took of Mars, they now say that there's..., they pointed out that there's a similar canyon, the Grand Canyon, in Arizona. So they were reporting like this, and Prabhupāda said this is an indication that actually it is a picture of, they have unintentionally they have let out the information that actually the photo is simply a photograph of the Grand Canyon. Hari-śauri: He gave an example. There's a man in his room at night, and he hears a noise. So he says "Oh, what's that sound?" And then back comes the reply, "I am not stealing." So no one asked the man to say what he was doing, but he unintentionally let it out what he was actually doing there. He just asked what the noise was, but he said "I am not stealing." So in the same way no one asked them to say anything about Arizona, but they let it out. *Prabhupāda: They have disclosed unintentionally. That is going on. It is beyond their dream to go either to the moon planet or Mars planet. It is not possible. Not nowadays I say*-I said it ten years ago. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're going to have a difficult time, with the scientists, about the moon. Prabhupāda: Hm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're going to have a difficult time about this moon and the sun relationship. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sunday, Monday. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is a lifelong project. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Nobody could answer, a simple question. (Hari-śauri explains "Sunday, Monday" question to Svarūpa Dāmodara in background(?)) According to Vedic astronomical calculations, sun is first. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But does it have to do anything with distance, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Does it have to do anything with the distance? As the sun is recorded first? *Prabhupāda: No, according to them if sun is first, then it will be ninety*-three million miles. And if the moon is still away, one million six hundred thousand miles, it becomes ninety-five million miles. How they are going ninety-five millions of miles in four days? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, on that ground it is reasonable to know that they couldn't go there, but... Prabhupāda: Therefore I say they couldn't go there. Their asset is Arizona, that's all. All this propaganda is gone, and at last they wanted to satisfy by delivering some sand and rock, that's all. Actually the business was not done. Hari-śauri: They say even if there's life on another planet, at most it could be bacteria. Prabhupāda: Nonsense. If bacteria is there, why not others? Hari-śauri: Well the thing is that if they say that there's other life, then they'd have to show it. But they don't know what's there because they've never been. So they have to show either there's no life and here's some rocks, which they got from this planet, or at most there's only bacteria, which they can also produce here and say it's there. But they can't show any advanced life because they don't know. Prabhupāda: They have never gone. Simply bluff. That is my point. *Ṛṣi*-kumāra: Whenever they don't know something, they say it doesn't exist. Prabhupāda: I have got evidence, our Vedic literature. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have other informations other than Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam? Prabhupāda: Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have other evidences? Prabhupāda: We have evidence from astronomy, Jyoti-śāstra. Jyoti-śāstra. Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Manasvī is here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rādhāvallabha: Manasvī. Tell him to come in? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sit down. Wherefrom you are coming? Manasvī: New Jersey, Hoboken. Prabhupāda: Where is your child? Manasvī: She's downstairs. Prabhupāda: With whom he is with? Manasvī: With her brother. Prabhupāda: So? What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the magazine I was telling you about. Transcendental Meditation Today. Prabhupāda: That is the name of the magazine? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The feature article is... Prabhupāda: This is our? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Big article all about our society. Prabhupāda: Oh, my picture also. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Prabhupāda, ācārya*-founder." Tells all about you and your books. Hari-śauri: It especially mentions your books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a whole page devoted about your books. Hari-śauri: This is the downstairs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Hare Kṛṣṇa Meditation. Who is Kṛṣṇa?" "The Kṛṣṇa Cut." It tells about the haircut, śikhā. Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa cut" (laughs). Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then in the back there's more articles about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there's the..., here, "Food for the gods, prasādam." Hari-śauri: Describes what standard we have for making the prasādam, how you can't taste it, you have to be very clean. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's that..., remember I was telling you about that meditation on the ping*-pong balls? Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughter) Devotee: "Gansfield effect." They give it a name and make it sound very important, and then sell it for a thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: Who's name? Devotee (1): Gansfield. They say the Gansfield effect. Prabhupāda: Who is Gansfield, somebody know? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's an article about Maharishi. You want to read it? There's some points in here, it says "Profit without honor." This man hates Maharishi, says he's completely bogus. Prabhupāda: His picture is hateful. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says "Profit without any honor." He quotes you in here. It says "Swami Prabhupāda, spiritual leader of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and Bill Faill, Durban, South Africa, of the Natal Mercury Reporter, had the following dialogue: (reads from magazine) Bill Faill: 'Do you think that Transcendental Meditation is helping people?' Prabhupāda: 'They do not know what real meditation is. Their meditation is simply a farce, another cheating process by the so*-called swamis and yogis. So everyone is talking about meditation, but no one knows what meditation really is. These bluffers use the word meditation, but they do not know the proper subject for meditation. They are simply talking bogus propaganda.' Bill Faill: 'But isn't meditation helpful in getting people to think straight?' Prabhupāda: 'No, real meditation means to achieve a state in which the mind is saturated by God consciousness.' " *Prabhupāda: Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. This is the Vedic version. When one man's mind is fully absorbed in the Supersoul, Viṣṇu, that is called meditation. And Bhagavad-gītā confirms, These are the Vedic version. These rascals, some light, some this, some that. Rādhāvallabha: There are some quotes here from people describing Maharishi's meditation. It says "A Denver housewife said, 'I turned off when I found that TM' " that's what they call Transcendental Meditation, " 'I turned off when I found that TM is trying to sell me meditation the same way Proctor and Gamble sells me soap.' " Prabhupāda: Gamble? Rādhāvallabha: Big soap company. Hari-śauri: Proctor and Gamble manufactures all kinds of soaps and detergents, so she's saying that the way they sell Transcendental Meditation is the same as the way they sell soap. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very commercialized. Rādhāvallabha: They have here proof that his mantra is no different than any ordinary sound. It says "In a Stanford Research Institute experiment, a group of TM trainees was compared to a control group who had been taught a fake mantra that they believed would be effective. In both groups some subjects were able to bring unpleasant psychosomatic symptoms under control. Three of these dropped out of the TM training group. Their symptoms returned. Two dropped out of the control group; their symptoms came back too. Evidence like that suggests that whatever works in the TM system, it does not depend upon the mystical mantra." Prabhupāda: Let their men come and talk with our men in a public meeting. Then people will understand what is the difference. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have a catalog, Transcendental Meditation University, it's very well done, nice colors and anything, first class. They spend a lot of money and a lot of thoughts how to bring, how to attract the students. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says their University's just closed down. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, the one at Iowa? Hari-śauri: No, the one in Majorca, in Spain. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is the headquarters, Iowa, the main University. We saw the catalog. It contains everything, all sciences. Hari-śauri: This article explains that when he first appeared in public, he presented himself as a Hindu representative of Śaṅkarācārya's cult, but then later on he concocted this Transcendental Meditation, and then he presented it as a science so that he could get government grants to teach it in schools and things like this. Rādhāvallabha: They have another guru here, Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh. Prabhupāda: He has also come? Rādhāvallabha: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His group is big here. He's very popular in America. Rādhāvallabha: Eighteen thousand disciples. He says, "It does not matter to whom one surrenders. The relevance is in the act of surrendering. But because the human mind sees things in terms of relationships, surrender to a guru is often useful. The guru is a step toward the impersonal divine, a step toward surrender to the existence." Hari-śauri: He makes a comment about sannyāsa as well, I think. *Rādhāvallabha: He initiates sannyāsa, they call themselves neo*-sannyāsa. "At initiation a sannyāsī receives a new name, an ochre robe and a mālā, a string of beads holding a locket that frames a photograph of Bhagwan." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhagwan Rajneesh, not Bhagavān. Rādhāvallabha: The one who says it's no necessity to have a spiritual master. He says "The picture is not mine. Had it been mine I would have hesitated to put it there. The picture only appears as mine." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's word jugglery (laughter). The picture is of himself, he says "It is not me. If it was me I would not have put it there, it only appears to be me." Devotee (1): They want something very cheap and easy to attain. Rādhāvallabha: Here's his method. First they engage in breathing. It says, "The really successful meditator sounds like an exhausted sea lion." He says "If you feel like dancing, dance, laugh, scream, sing, express your love, your hate, your anger, your jealousy. Do not condemn what happens; do not condone it. Just go mad. Express whatever is within you totally, intensity." And here's his mantra, "Who who who." That's his mantra. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were doing this in Bhopal. In Bhopal, we were there when we had our Jeeps. So in the same place we were staying they let this group Rajneesh do it. So they were going with that mantra, "Who who." So we were standing out from the balcony shouting, "Kṛṣṇa, that's who." Every morning they would do that meditation, and we would answer "Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) Hari-śauri: They call his method "chaotic meditation." Prabhupāda: They say? Hari-śauri: That's the heading, it says "Chaotic Meditation." Rādhāvallabha: That's the name of it. After they go "Who who who who who who..." Prabhupāda: What about..., what they have written about us? Rādhāvallabha: About us? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A big article. Rādhāvallabha: Everything is favorable. They didn't say one bad thing about us. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. The group above are performing a kīrtana, the chanting of the names of Kṛṣṇa, the Vedic Deity they believe to be the supreme personification of Godhead. They are shown before the doorway of one Astor Plaza in Manhattan's Times Square area. Their chant, increasingly familiar on street corners in all large cities across the country, runs, 'Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.' These Kṛṣṇa devotees belong to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, less formally known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement and still less formally to the man in the street as the Harry Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Actually, Prabhupāda, one... Prabhupāda: Harry Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They think that we're worshiping a person, some material man by the name of Harry Kṛṣṇa. They think that your name is Harry Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) *Ādi*-keśava: In Boston they once wrote an article in the newspaper, the Boston Globe, they said "I walked into the temple room and there he was, a big picture of Harry Kṛṣṇa sitting on a big throne." (laughter) On the vyāsāsana. Hari-śauri: Harry is an English... Prabhupāda: Harry, Harrison, like that. Devotee (1): They are saying Kṛṣṇa's name. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I read more? "There are several hundred thousand members of the movement, several hundred thousand members of the movement throughout the world. Ten thousand in New York City alone." Actually, there are at least ten thousand followers. "Of these, about a hundred and fifty are full-time students and live at 340 West Fifty-fifth Street, an eleven-story former Josephine Baird Home of the Roman Catholic Carmelite Nuns." This was a nunnery. "The Hare Kṛṣṇa center on West Fifty-fifth Street draws about five hundred lay devotees and curiosity-seekers from the metropolitan area every Sunday. Open house begins at five p.m. A great drawing card is the serving of prasādam, food specially prepared for and offered to Lord Kṛṣṇa before being distributed to the public. The eating of prasādam, (see the article, "Food of the Gods" on a later page), is believed by members of the movement to convey important spiritual benefits*-for example, the cleansing of karma due to past sins. Movement members are not unaware of the more immediate and mundane effect. 'Prasādam is our secret weapon,' said Alaṅkāra dāsa, spokesman for the center. 'It gets them in here, and then they can get the message.' Les Tursley, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, India-based senior member of the movement, has said of prasādam in his country..." Rādhāvallabha: They think you're an Indian. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They think I'm an Indian. " 'If anyone comes around to our prasādam distribution program, that means he is hungry. If he is hungry, that means he cannot listen to our philosophy. If his hunger is not satisfied, he'll never become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the point. If we just went around with a program of speaking and kīrtana, they would come once or twice but they wouldn't see its practical value. But if you give them prasādam daily with kīrtana and speaking, eventually you can convince them. Look, this is our most practical way of life. Why don't you come and live with us completely and work with us? ' " That's a quote from an article in Back to Godhead. "Though food is far more plentiful in the United States than in India, prasādam appeal seems to work its magic here just as well. The entire movement began only ten years ago in a storefront temple in Manhattan's Lower East Side. Today it owns the largest publishing house of Hindu classics, many in demand for leading university courses. The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust in Los Angeles, the world's largest, last year's gross of one million dollars; *incense*-producing Spiritual Sky Scented Products Company; *and Kṛṣṇa Fashions Incorporated, a wholesale clothing manufacturer. An important portion of the movement's income comes from the contribution of lay devotees, who are successful businessmen. More comes from street*-corner solicitation of alms by devotees during kīrtana. How significant the last is, was shown recently by the closing down of elevator service in the New York center. 'A lot of us are going on pilgrimage to India,' said Alaṅkāra dāsa. 'There won't be many around to beg. These elevators cost us $2,200 a month to run. So we're cutting down except for essential services.' " We don't do that anymore. That was the previous mismanagement. Someone had the idea that if you turn off the elevator, that's very good, but I told him if you're not going to run the elevator, why did you move here? They had people walking up eleven stories, and it was crazy, just to save... Anyway, "These include moving foodstuffs and milk into the building. Much of the food comes from the 350-acre ISKCON-owned dairy farm in Academia, Pennsylvania, one of the six similar facilities in this country and Canada." They show pictures of devotees in the temple, devotees taking prasādam and two lady devotees. "The yoga," it says under the caption, "monks take breakfast by hand in rows on the dining area floor." Here it says "Saried women devotees dwell in cloister atmosphere of the center." Then "The yoga of devotion: Tilaka of clay paste marks the devotee as a member of ISKCON sect. Central shrine in the temple is the focal point of twice a day services." A picture of Rādhā-Govinda. " 'Our life is our meditation' said a śikhā-ed, saffron-clad monk in the Hare Kṛṣṇa center. 'Everything we do is offered to Śrī Kṛṣṇa, but in addition to that there is the personal chanting, most...' [break] ...slung from the devotee's neck. He often counts the beads without taking his hand from the pouch. In the early hours the Hare Kṛṣṇa center buzzes with a droning sound, difficult to identify by the stranger who does not know that it comes from the monks, who are beginning their required sixteen rounds." They have given everything very detailed. "The personal chanting sometimes occurs in unusual situations-while escorting a visitor to the center, while waiting to complete a phone call, or even during pauses in a conversation." (laughter) Devotees are always chanting. " 'The mahāmantra is the only mantra needed' the devotee says. Besides the sixteen rounds, devotees are expected to observe four rules. They must abstain from meat-eating, intoxication, gambling and illicit sex. Illicit sex is defined as any sexual act other than that intended for procreation. Sex outside of marriage is forbidden. Married, full-time devotees may have sexual relationship once a month at a time propitious for procreation. All the devotee's activities are regarded as bhakti-yoga, the yoga of devotion. He regards everything he does as service to God. The name he is given at initiation is followed by the word dāsa, 'a servant.' Full-time ISKCON devotees adopt Vedic dress, one objective being to keep others aware of Kṛṣṇa. Women wear saris, the men dhotis; *both may wear shawls. The men shave their heads except for single lock of hair at the back. (See the article, "The Kṛṣṇa Cut.") The lock, called a śikhā, identifies the followers of Kṛṣṇa." Actually no one can imitate us because no one wants to give up their hair, so no one will try to make believe they are devotees. "Shaving the head announces renunciation of material pleasures. The tilaka is a mark made with clay*-two narrow vertical stripes on the forehead meeting in a triangular swatch on the bridge of the nose. It identifies the body as a temple to be used only in the service of God. Full-time students follow a rigorously monastic life. They arise at four a.m. in the morning, begin four hours of prayer and chanting. At nine o'clock they have breakfast, seated cross-legged on mats on the floor. The men eat apart from the women. During the day devotees work at various preaching programs or at regular jobs. At seven p.m. devotional services are held in the center's temple. In Manhattan this features an ornate shrine including representations of Kṛṣṇa and His consort, Rādhā. Both are costumed sumptuously with elaborate care; *both wear festoons of flowers. Visitors are cautioned, 'When you go in the temple room remember that these statues you see are not representations of the Deities, they are the Deities. Kṛṣṇa is in everything, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere.' Temple kīrtana." There's a picture. "Eleven*-story New York sect's center is former Carmelite Baird home." Picture of the temple. "Services in the temple are attended by about five hundred every Sunday. Many of these are from New York's Hindu population. Frequently husbands bring their pregnant wives, dedicating their unborn child to Kṛṣṇa. The kīrtana begins with the chanting of the mahāmantra, slowly at first and melodiously. Later the chant will speed up as the spirit of the devotion spreads. Often the most rapid and intense chanting is done by a hard-core knot of dhoti-ed men before the curtains of the shrine." The devotees get in one group and start... (laughter) Hard-core devotees. "The rhythm approaches that of an express train, and the atmosphere is apt to remind a lay visitor of an old-fashioned football rally. Some of the onlookers try to keep up with the central group, clapping their hands, swaying their bodies, throwing arms upwards and, among the younger, adapting modern dance steps to the rhythm. When the shrine curtains are drawn back, devotees kneel and press their foreheads..." Prabhupāda: Who has introduced this peculiar dancing? Hari-śauri: It just evolved. (laughs) Rūpānuga: We were speaking about that the other day. It's changed from the original dancing that you showed us to something else. Too much like the modern dancing. Prabhupāda: Hmm. I think this is not good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shall I read on? "The service has become..." What way should we dance, Śrīla Prabhupāda? With our hands outstretched? Sometimes the devotees like to jump around. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: In ecstasy one can do anything, that is another... But artificially to do something is not good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But if one feels like jumping, it is all right? Prabhupāda: Anything artificial is not required. Rūpānuga: So running back and forth is not... Prabhupāda: No, no, that should not be an artificial. Hari-śauri: We don't dance for show, we dance for the pleasure of the Deities. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're not professional dancers. "The service has become so frenetic that the almost folksy, matter of fact preaching of the Swami makes a stark contrast. 'Some people are against us because they say we teach children to smile. Well isn't that too bad. We make children smile*-we are bad. We try to teach them that life should be a joyful thing, we're evil. Well that's too bad, isn't it? ' " Devotees: Who's that? That's crazy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is theory.(?) (laughter) Prabhupāda: So he has not returned with the key? Hari-śauri: Who? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Still more? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "After the sermon, more chanting. Now it really becomes frantic, and even compelling. Many curious first*-time visitors begin to take up the mahāmantra chant. The hard-core group at the shrine seems to be completely carried away. The terrazo floor literally vibrates. Gradually the crowd begins to thin. Other things are happening in the center. On the third floor there is a traditional Vedic play in costume, acted with enthusiasm." (sound of kīrtana) Hari-śauri: It's going downstairs somewhere, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Ādi*-keśava: They're getting everybody together to go out on saṅkīrtana party. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "On the second floor there is a store which attracts many visitors who want to buy Indian costumes, jewelry and the movement's books. Prasādam is served in the basement restaurant. Visitors eat at tables in the same area where monks had breakfast on the floor. The prasādam features Hindu dishes served in the compartments of plasticized paper mess trays." Then it goes on. Now there's another article about you. Why are they holding a kīrtana now? *Ādi*-keśava: They're getting a kīrtana party together to go out on hari-nāma down at Times Square (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Hmm. What does he say? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Prabhupāda, ācārya-founder, born Abhay Caran De in India in 1895, the founder, future founder-ācārya, spiritual leader of ISKCON, came under the spiritual direction of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja, ascetic scholar and preacher who had devoted his life to the spread of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Three years later, shortly before he died, Bhaktisiddhānta ordered Abhay to spread the Kṛṣṇa faith in the English language. One of the ways that Abhay, now known as Prabhupāda-'one at whose feet masters sit'-did that was to begin to translate the classic Vedic literature, but it was not until thirty years after he was charged by his spiritual mentor that he was able to make a trip to the United States. He arrived in Boston in September, 1965, a spry but grim-faced passenger of seventy years on the steamer Jaladuta. He had forty rupees in his pocket and a metal suitcase full of his books and translations. Finding his way to New York City, he set up a storefront temple at 26 Second Avenue in the East Village section. Gradually he drew a small coterie of students around him, mostly through his preaching in Tompkinson Park. As his movement grew, he found backers among his converts. Hare Kṛṣṇa centers were established in Boston, Buffalo and San Francisco, and an appreciation of Prabhupāda's Vedic translations by American university authorities, Columbia, Princeton, Yale professors among others, permitted the establishment of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust in Los Angeles. The Trust launched a promotion of Prabhupāda's translations and original works under the logo of the Living Library of Transcendental Knowledge. Remarkably, in the face of a worldwide economic recession, the Trust's book and magazine sales reached nine million in 1975, up 34.5 percent over 1974. Some of this was due to the determined promotion of groups such as the hundred-man Rādhā-Dāmodara group which criss-crosses the country in six Greyhound-type buses and ten vans giving lectures and kīrtanas at college university campuses. Now eighty*-one years old, Prabhupāda still works at his writings and the spiritual direction of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. His translation of Bhagavad-gītā, the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, the most widely used in the Western world, is in great demand by professors of Indology and Vedic literature." Prabhupāda: He has given advertisement for our books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, very favorable. Rādhāvallabha: The amazing thing is that he's an impersonalist. Prabhupāda: Impersonalist? Rādhāvallabha: The man who wrote all of these articles, he's an impersonalist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's a picture of him. Prabhupāda: Oh, he's American? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Tripurāri: He thinks there are different types of meditation that all work, and ours is one type, bona fide, that works. There are also other types. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The article goes on-I don't know if you want to hear it all. You want to hear it? Okay. Here's this thing called "Who is Kṛṣṇa?" "Kṛṣṇa, viewed by ISKCON as the Supreme Personification of Godhead, is said to have many pastimes in which He assumes different appearances. One such is that of Gopālajī, the cowherd boy-see picture, cowherd boy*-He can appear in other forms such as four-armed Nārāyaṇa. Most often Kṛṣṇa is portrayed as having light blue skin and, by Western standards, a soft and effeminate physique. He is said to be full in the six opulences: beauty, strength, fame, wealth, knowledge and renunciation. He is said to be all-attractive. Kṛṣṇa incarnates on one planet after another in infinite universes. The last time He appeared on earth as Kṛṣṇa was five thousand years ago. He will not return in that form for another four hundred thousand years, but five hundred years ago He appeared in His incarnation of Lord Caitanya, who taught people of the mahāmantra and started the Kṛṣṇa consciousness in its present state. According to the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa hungers for the devotion of His followers." Very nicely put. "This devotion in its pure sense takes the form of bhakti-yoga, the dedication of one's every action to Kṛṣṇa. Thus to use one's sense for one's own pleasure is to deny Kṛṣṇa devotion and accumulate negative karma. Kṛṣṇa has a consort, Rādhā, but She is considered only as an extension of His own pleasure principle, since He is all things. It is through Her intercession that devotees seek favors from Kṛṣṇa. According to ISKCON, Kṛṣṇa is the same God worshiped as Jehovah, Allah and so on." That is the explanation of who Kṛṣṇa is. Rādhāvallabha: He could write for Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rādhāvallabha: He could write for Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. Then there is a part called "Hare Kṛṣṇa Meditation." "The Hare Kṛṣṇaś practice bhakti, the yoga of devotion. They have their mahāmantra, continual recitation of which will have a meditative effect. By integrating recitation of the mantra with a life of rigidly formulated devotional activities, it would seem that devotees actually live their meditation. Such a life of living meditation is not without parallel in secular fields. It is believed that the spiritual form of alchemy served this purpose; that is, an alchemist repeated the same experimental routine over and over until it became automatized, though still requiring some slight personal involvement." He's getting a little far out here. "It was expected that the result..." Anyway, "...practitioners of Western magical disciplines sought for similar results. Meditation takes effect in terms of the ambiance in which it is practiced. In the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement there are certain to be transcendental experiences. They would be in accord with Vedic teachings, but their exact nature has not proven easy of discovery, since devotees insist that their sole aim in life is to be of service to Kṛṣṇa." We're not interested in experiencing all these special things. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very nice. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice point. Then there's a part about the Kṛṣṇa cut. Says here, "Badge. The badge of the monks is the single lock that hangs from a rear of shaven head. As a precisely trimmed śikhā is a matter of pride, monks often cooperate in shaving one another. Hair is buzzed off by clipper (left side), leaving a bristly surface (center)"*-shows the bristly surface. Prabhupāda: He has taken photograph of it? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughter) Yes. "...which is lathered up and shaved with a safety razor (right side). Even more striking than their saffron dhotis and shawls is the ISKCON men's practice of shaving their heads with the exception of one long lock in the rear, known as the śikhā. The first reaction of the layman is "Why do they do it?" The next is "How do they do it?" The Hare Kṛṣṇaś themselves advance three different answers to the first question. Some say that in countries that have hot climates, the religious have always shaved their heads to insure cleanliness. A clean body reflects a pure spirit." Prabhupāda: One letter should be written to him that "You have taken so much trouble to describe Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, so thank you for your patience. Now we shall request you to read our books and review it. That will be real presentation of the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement. Now you have studied superficially, and if you seriously study our books, you'll get more knowledge and you'll be able to give description of the movement more definitely." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to hear what else he has to say? Prabhupāda: Umhm. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Others insist that the style of shaving the head identifies devotees of various spiritual orders. The long śikhās marks a man as a follower of Kṛṣṇa. Still another group says that the head*-shaving simply stands for renunciation of the material world, its values and its pleasures. One or more of those reasons may be the true one. Possibly all of them have a multi-determined, have multi-determined the Kṛṣṇa cut. The how of the cut is simplicity itself. Commonly two men cut each others hair. Our pictures show how. Phase one of the cutting, known as the buzz-off, is done with ordinary..." (laughter) Prabhupāda: Buzz off? (laughter) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "...is done with ordinary hair clippers. The post buzz*-off effect..." (laughter) Rūpānuga: This guy's made a science out of it. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "...shown in the second picture. Next, the prickly sconce." Prabhupāda: What is that meaning? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prickly sconce. Prickly means short*-haired, and sconce means...? Hari-śauri: Look it up in the dictionary. (laughter) Rādhāvallabha: People like to think they are scientific like this. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says "the prickly sconce is lathered up with an old*-fashioned mug and brush and shaved with a safety razor. It is considered of paramount importance that the base of the śikhā be shaved round evenly. The shavee sometimes shows some nervousness about this." He gets nervous that they'll cut his śikhā off. This man has caught every detail. Prabhupāda: Good writer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's a good one. Hari-śauri: It says "Sconce: crown of head." It's an old term for the crown of the head. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a special article about prasādam, Prabhupāda, called "Food for the Gods." "Of all the ways of getting to heaven, or nirvāṇa, or whatever your ideal place may be, the Hare Kṛṣṇa way is one of the most pleasant. Believers of this faith are convinced that you can eat your way into higher spiritual realms. Of course, this doesn't mean that food itself is sacred and the more you eat the holier you are. To begin with, there is a strict prohibition against the killing of animals, so meat, fish and eggs are not included in the diet at all of the Kṛṣṇa devotees. Furthermore, there are many special rules for preparing the food which may be offered to Kṛṣṇa to be blessed by Him and therefore to bring blessings to anyone who partakes of it." Should I read this whole article? Prabhupāda: Um, hmm. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "The recipes given below, taken from the Hare Kṛṣṇa Cookbook'*-another good advertisement, and they give you at least three or four recipes in here. They give recipes for, the recipes are for... Prabhupāda: : Anyway, he has given more pages for our movement. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, he's given us three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve pages. And the whole magazine, including many advertisements..., actually the nonadvertised part is about fifty*-five pages, of which we have twelve. At least one fifth of the book is for Hare Kṛṣṇa. The other groups only have three pages, four pages. And he blasts them mostly. Some of them are really nonsense. Here's one called the Deichman experiment. You stare at a vase... Prabhupāda: Another meditation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, this is another one. Deichman experiment. Then they have one about Zen Buddhism, it shows Zen meditation. Here's a Zen master sitting in front of a basketball. I don't know why. *Ādi*-keśava: They have a meditation that they call Zen basketball. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Ādi*-keśava: We went to one seminar once when they were teaching Zen basketball. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's another one, "Hypnotism or Meditation." A hypnotist discusses a question that many face. Because they accuse that we're hypnotizing, so they're trying to distinguish in this article what is hypnotism, what is meditation. Then here's another one, "The Art of Awareness." This woman is supposed to be a great transcendental artist. You can see some of her famous pictures. Here's a picture called "Congregations of Souls." And here's another picture called "Temple Stones." Then this is the Gansfield effect. (laughter) Ping*-pong balls. Says here "The apparently pop-eyed lady is not a visitor from another dimension nor the victim of a sudden surprise. She is the subject of an experiment into the nature of meditation and some of the effects of the processes. The ping-pong ball halves present a completely continuous visual field. There's no object in it that can hold her attention. After staring at the insides of the ping-pong balls for a while, she will begin to feel peaceful and..." Prabhupāda: Actually she does? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, that's the meditation. They put the ping*-pong ball, and then it describes, "She will feel peaceful and serene. At the same time she may not be able to tell whether her eyes are open or closed. She will see neither white nor black nor any shade in between. She will have the experience of not seeing. At that point, which the subject in this kind..." Prabhupāda: With the eyes closed, then not seeing is there already. (laughter) What is the use of meditating? *Hari-śauri: You aren't going to see very much with two ping*-pong balls over your eyes, are you? (laughter) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "The white hemispheres covering her eyes are halves of ping*-pong balls. The wires lead off to an electroencephalograph." E.E.G. It keeps a record of changes in her brainwave output. "At that point when she is not seeing, which subjects in this kind of experiment call 'blanking out,' the electroencephalograph will record a brainwave output well into the alpha range." They also tell you how to make the Gansfield, how to cut the... It shows a ping pong ball and a knife. (laughter) This guy is weird. Hari-śauri: This thing about alpha range, this is becoming a big thing. They think that if a person gets into this alpha range of brain stimulation, then his meditation is successful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're trying to figure it all out scientifically. *Ādi*-keśava: They're trying to use all kinds of machines and wires to measure consciousness. They have one group that has tin cans attached to wires, and they hold them in their hand, and then they measure it on the machine as they meditate. And when they meditate right, the needle on the machine goes right in the middle, and they think they have achieved perfection. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here is an article called "Travels Beyond the Body: what is it that travels, and what is it that's seen?" They're talking about traveling beyond your body. Here's an advertisement, "Because I have taken the mystery out of transcendental meditation, I will teach you to master transcendental meditation in a single evening." "About the author." Then it says, "Free private mantra based on your own name, selected by the great Norbell, translated by his special Sanskrit system, so that no one else in America has the same mantra twice. No other system of transcendental meditation..." Prabhupāda: What is this? Maharishi? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? Hari-śauri: No, this is competition. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, this isn't... Hari-śauri: This is the competition. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This man says "Norbell, for over thirty years his unrelenting thirst for spiritual fulfillment has taken him to the most remote corners of the globe to finally become one of the few Westerners in our time who has ever gained acceptance as an equal among the holy masters of both India and Tibet. He has also mastered the scientific secrets of Western knowledge in America's most highly regarded universities. In America alone over the past decade, tens of thousands have come to Carnegie Hall in New York and dozens of other centers of public hearing all to hear him." He says, "Meditation can make this claim alone, and it's yours to keep. Your own mantra free, even if you return the report itself. Mail this coupon at no risk today. 'Gentlemen, please rush me a copy of Norbell's five minute de-mystified transcendental meditation.' " (laughter) De-mystified, taking the mystery out. "Confidential report. 'I enclose nine dollars and ninety-eight cents in full payment. I understand that I may examine this confidential report for thirty days at your risk or money back. Also send me my own private mantra, specially selected for me by Master Norbell and mine absolutely free, even if I return the report with every cent of my money back.' " It says here-these are the benefits of the mantra*-one of the benefits is, it says here, one of the benefits, "and as an extra benefit of such heightened personal magnetism, a simple shift in the focus of your daily meditations can give you great new sexual and romantic powers, new joys in love." Devotee (1): They're all cheaters. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's another group called Arika.(?) This Arika(?) costs three thousand dollars, this process. They charge three thousand dollars for a ninety*-day course. *Ādi*-keśava: Part of their whole meditation is they have cocktail parties. They drink liquor and they have these therapy, and they charge him money to go to a cocktail party, they call it yoga. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, it's got a good article about us. You want to keep it to show guests who come the article? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Anyone who reads that magazine will immediately become attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there's no comparison. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's got the best article I've ever seen though, about us, in great detail. It really reports the details. Prabhupāda: Hmm. This is also good article. [break] Hm! Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa, where is the key? Key? Distribute this prasādam. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can see how he's cooking very..., he's the most expert I've ever seen, and he knows these special preparations. He can cook many varieties of kacuri. (end) *Evening Darçana-*-July 11, 1976, New York Prabhupāda: "I take away as death." Whatever they are accumulating, everything will be taken away at the time of death. They are simply collecting, accumulating, discovering, forgetting that everything will be taken away at the time of death. Discover something which can check death, there will be no more death. That is real discovery. What do you think? Indian man (1): It's a question to think about. Prabhupāda: Because whatever we are discovering, it will be taken away by death. So discover something which will stop death. And that is real discovery. Indian man (1): But don't you think it will be a bad thing, because there are some bad people in the world, like Hitler and Stalin and others, they may be the first people to use the technology to prolong their life? Prabhupāda: The thing is, bad or good, everyone will be taken away by death. Is it not a fact? Hitler is no longer existing, neither Stalin nor Gandhi. Gandhi was supposed to be very good man. He's also taken by death, and Hitler is also taken by death. And Stalin also taken. And I'll also, you will be also. So death will take away everyone. There is no doubt about it. Therefore discover something which will stop death. That is real discovery. *Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Which is the most important chapter of the Bhagavad*-gītā? Prabhupāda: Every word is important. Devotee: Jaya. *Prabhupāda: Every word. Beginning from dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1], every word. Guest (1): Every one. *Bali*-mardana: Every word. Guest (1): Every word. *Prabhupāda: And that will give you guidance. Read Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, word for word. But don't misinterpret and spoil. The rascals misinterpret and spoil the whole Bhagavad-gītā. That is the difficulty(?). You cannot misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā. Then it will be spoiled. If you get Bhagavad-gītā as it is, you are benefited. And if you misinterpret, then you spoil. So generally they misinterpret. Everyone speaks on Bhagavad-gītā, but he misinterprets. Guest (1): You've made it very clear, Prabhupāda. I want to thank you for that. I like your purports as much as Kṛṣṇa's actual words, because now I can understand it. *Prabhupāda: Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Otherwise, for the last so many years*-I am speaking in Western countries-so many swamis, so many yogis come, they speak on Bhagavad-gītā but misinterpret. So not a single devotee was there. And now Bhagavad-gītā is presented as it is, and so many devotees are coming. Guest (1): Now we can understand it. *Prabhupāda: You could understand long ago, but difficulty is we accept this misinterpretation, spoiled understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā. Just like this gentleman was speaking he did not like Kṛṣṇa, he told me. *Bali*-mardana: He did not like Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: They'll read Bhagavad*-gītā, and they'll not like Kṛṣṇa. This is their reading of Bhagavad-gītā. Indian man (2): They don't want to read it yet. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Now all Indians, they should take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and make their life fruitful. The Europeans and Americans, they are taking. Why Indians are not taking? *Indian lady: Is it because the Indians think that they know much about Bhagavad*-gītā? Being born a Hindu, they might think they know the religion, but not very much. They are not Kṛṣṇa conscious at all. Prabhupāda: But if he knows everything, he does not know Kṛṣṇa? How he knows everything if he does not know Kṛṣṇa? If you think that you know everything, then you must know Kṛṣṇa. But if you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then what do you know? Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you simply know Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything. And if you know everything and you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then you are rascal, that's all. Mūḍha. That is the test. If you know everything but do not know Kṛṣṇa, then you are a rascal. And if you know Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything automatically. Indian lady: I think they think they know it, but I'm sure they are not aware of it. Prabhupāda: If they know Kṛṣṇa, why they do not come to the Kṛṣṇa's temple? Indian man (2): Quite a number of them come here. I remember the days when I used to be the only Indian in the temple, seven, eight years ago. Prabhupāda: Even though they are not coming, they should now come, and we can open many other temples if you come. We can maintain many other temples. You come and take advantage of it. Why you are losing your own culture? That is foolishness. You are Indians and you do not know Kṛṣṇa. That is not a very good credit. Indian man (2): Remember when we were building our altar? Remember last year when I talked to you? We were building altar, and actually I went to every Indian, and myself and the president of that temple, we begged everything we can do possible... And we wanted to collect almost ten thousand dollars, we couldn't even collect five thousand dollars, and most of them were making between fifteen and thirty thousand dollars. Some of them in fact gave us pennies. Prabhupāda: Just see. *Indian man (2): And they took us one Bhagavad*-gītā. We gave them Bhagavad-gītā and they gave us some pennies. *Bali*-mardana: Not a very good trade. (laughter) Prabhupāda: This is not good report. *Bali*-mardana: Praghoṣa, he gets at least ten dollars in lakṣmī. Indian man (2): It's difficult to collect money from the Indians. That is my experience, and I... *Bali*-mardana: Because they are thinking of rupees. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That means they do not like Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (2): I don't know. Somehow or other, I myself am totally confused about Indian community in this country. I have no comments to make, but I found out that they are the least charitable community among all communities. I lived in Canada almost ten years, and I found out other communities are very charitable. Even if you go to other community, at least they will give something, but Indians... Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Every Indian should come to the temple and become a devotee. Indian man (1): I think more and more people are really coming to the temple and becoming part of it, as I think most of the devotees around here know, in the last few years. Everybody I know of... Prabhupāda: "More and more coming" means not all are coming. (laughter) Indian man (1): All of them would be the desirable thing. Prabhupāda: What is the objection? Indian man (1): There are so many other temples. Hindu temple, Sindhu(?) temple... There's organization of community of Indians, they are trying to develop their own. *Prabhupāda: There is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity? Indian lady: Yes. Indian man (1): There is *Gītā* temple, there's a Sindhi temple. Prabhupāda: Without Kṛṣṇa? *Gītā* without Kṛṣṇa? Indian man (1): It is a temple, everybody facing their back towards Kṛṣṇa and chanting about what was happening in the town. *Bali*-mardana: They have Kṛṣṇa mūrti, but when he went there everyone had their back to the mūrti. Indian man (1): And they were chanting, not chanting, talking about what was going on in the town. *Bali*-mardana: Social, for social reasons. Prabhupāda: That means they do not know Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (1): But here you can only talk about Kṛṣṇa, so they don't want to come. Indian man (2): If you want to talk to them about Kṛṣṇa you'll lose a friend. Indian man (1): Right away. Indian man (2): Right away. So either make friends with Kṛṣṇa, or make friends with that guy. Prabhupāda: That is not very good. That means they have fallen from their culture. They have lost their culture. Indian man (1): Some of them in fact enjoy eating hot dogs and hamburgers. They said, "Oh, I have been eating vegetables for ages. Now I have come here to eat hot dogs and hamburgers." That is their comment. They have done totally, Prabhupāda: What is this hot dog? Hari-śauri: It's meat, sausage. Guest: Together with other poisons. Rādhāvallabha: Made from cows. [break] Prabhupāda: Some prasādam? Oh, they have taken prasādam. Indian man (2): Want something to eat? Hari-śauri: Feast prasādam. *Bali*-mardana: Someone is making them some little prasāda? Hari-śauri: There is some prasādam to distribute. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) And they talk of Bhagavad*-gītā and keeping Kṛṣṇa background? Somebody says? *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Mostly they don't even talk of Bhagavad-gītā, they talk about social things, but Kṛṣṇa they keep to the back. They have named the place Gītā Mandira. Gītā Temple. But they do not discuss Gītā, just for show. *Prabhupāda: That is the disease. Even Mahatma Gandhi, he was talking of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad*-gītā, but throughout his whole life he never established a temple of Kṛṣṇa, although his photograph you'll find with Bhagavad-gītā. This is the calamity. *Indian man (1): In the last days Mahatma Gandhi kept saying rāma rāma, rāma*-nāma is the only way chanting... One of his article he says there is no other cure but to chant the name of the Lord. *Prabhupāda: Mahatma Gandhi would have preached Bhagavad*-gītā, the world would have taken very seriously, because he was respectable. *Bali*-mardana: You wrote him to preach Bhagavad-gītā. *Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) The four things Kṛṣṇa wants, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. He charges four thing: to think of Kṛṣṇa, to become His devotee, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, mad-yājī... Find out this verse. Here is Bhagavad-gītā. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Hari-śauri: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." *Prabhupāda: Charges four things, He wants: to always think of Him, become His devotee, worship Him, mad*-yājī, and offer obeisances unto Him. Therefore this temple is there. These four things can be done even by the child. So why don't you do it? And the guarantee is that if anyone does like that, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Every one of you should come to the temple, always think of the Deity, and if possible chant His holy name and offer Him some worship and obeisances. That will make you perfect. New York is such a big city, there are so many Indians, they should come. Where is the difficulty, to become a thinker of Kṛṣṇa, always thinking, man-manā? The Deity is there. As soon as you come, you get some impression of the Deity. So if you think of the Deity, where is the difficulty? (Hindi) Can anyone say that there is difficulty in thinking of Kṛṣṇa? And as soon as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become a devotee, immediately. And as soon as you become a devotee, you'll offer something for worship. And at the end of worship, you offer your obeisances. There is no need of education or Vedānta knowledge. Vedānta knowledge means this, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things. Anyone can do. And practically see. These foreigners, ten years, five years ago they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and because they are following this man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, they are now advanced devotees. So why Indians are lacking? Hmm? What is the objection? Guest (1): Simply our hearts are caked with dust. Prabhupāda: Therefore we shall keep it dusty. If our heart is full of dust, cleanse it. That is intelligence. What is this, "My heart is dirty, let it be kept as dirty"? No, if it is dirty, cleanse it. It is the duty of every Indian to understand Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to others. That is real Indian business. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that every one of you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to others who are unaware of Kṛṣṇa. That is the injunction; *that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. Anyone who has taken birth in India as a human being*-not as dogs manuṣya, manuṣya means human-his duty is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach to the other people for welfare activities. Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. We should mark this point, manuṣya-janma. He's not requesting the cats and dogs. So in other words, that those who are not taking, Indians... Bhagavad-gītā is known to everyone, every Indian knows. But if he does not preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he is not to be counted as human being. Because He says manuṣya-janma haila yāra. If we claim to be human being, born in India, it is our duty to understand the value of life from Bhagavad-gītā and preach this cult to others to do real welfare activities. This is the duty of every Indian. Why Indians are lacking in their duty? They do not understand Kṛṣṇa and they do not understand how to do good to others. Now whatever is done is done. It is time, now that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is here, the temple is here, you come, you understand the whole philosophy and distribute. That is your duty. In New York City we can open many temples, provided you come. Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how does it feel to be back in New York again? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest (1): How does it feel to be back in New York? Prabhupāda: Yes, I feel very much pleased, because I came here alone, without any shelter, I was loitering on the street. Guest (1): Ten years ago, wasn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes, in 1965. Then in 1966 I established this institution in a storefront on the Second Avenue. That is the beginning. I never thought we shall be able to possess such a big building. Guest (1): You've done so much in that short time. Prabhupāda: I have not done, Kṛṣṇa has done. Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa has helped you to do it. *Prabhupāda: That I was speaking, that if we become sincere to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa can give us all opportunities. He's all*-powerful; *He can do that. (aside:) Those who are going, give them. Those who are going, you can give one. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. Do you read all these verses, those who are reading Bhagavad*-gītā? Guest (1): Just in progress. Prabhupāda: This verse is very important. *Every one of you is reading our Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is? Guests: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is there any question about? *Guest (1): Is there any question about Bhagavad*-gītā? *Prabhupāda: No, as you are reading Bhagavad*-gītā, is there any doubt, question? Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to know if anyone has questions. Prabhupāda: There is nothing doubtful; *everything is very plain. But we, by our rascaldom, we make it doubt. By our rascal interpretation. Everyone can understand. Just like dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. The Kurukṣetra is dharma-kṣetra. Still Kurukṣetra is there in India, and it is dharma-kṣetre. People go there for performing religious ritualistic ceremonies. So where is the difficulty to understand? And five thousand years ago the Kurus and Pāṇḍavas, they assembled there for fighting*-that is clearly stated, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. Who were they? Māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva: "My sons and the sons of Pāṇḍu," Kuru-Pāṇḍava. So where is the difficulty to understand? But by misinterpretation they'll write volumes of books and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. This business should be stopped. Then we will be benefited. Everyone is misinterpreting. Is it not a fact they are misinterpreting? What do you think? Devotee (1): So many intelligent people, they are going to Transcendental Meditation simply because it's costing money. They want to pay. My sister, her husband, they are intelligent people, but they are simply... *Prabhupāda: So intelligent that they cannot understand Bhagavad*-gītā. What kind of intelligence is that, the plain thing in the Bhagavad-gītā, they cannot... Devotee (1): Very bad intelligence. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So*-called intelligent, they are not intelligent. They have lost their sense by the influence of māyā. Even big, big men, they say that Kṛṣṇa, this Kṛṣṇa is not God. "The God Kṛṣṇa is different" and so on, so on. Do they not say like that? *Indian man (3): I wanted to ask you a question. While talking to some of the European people, when we say that Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that asked him to fight, kill his own relatives and friends and not to bother about the consequences of the action. Now this statement sometimes is difficult for people of the West to understand, where they say before you do any action you should know the consequences and then only take action... *Prabhupāda: That is the only statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā? There is no other statement? Indian man (3): There is, but... Prabhupāda: So you have captured that only. Indian man (3): Not I, I'm talking discussion. In a discussion it's difficult to convince people of the West, what is to answer to that? *Prabhupāda: But if you know Kṛṣṇa, that He is God, then whatever He speaks, it is all right. Just like Arjuna, he accepted Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. So he said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava [Bg. 10.14]. Find out this verse. So "Whatever You say, I accept it as truth." That is understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā. If you have understood Bhagavad-gītā, then you should have understood that whatever Kṛṣṇa has said, that is truth. Read that. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Translation. Hari-śauri: "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me." *Prabhupāda: That's all. That is understanding. Arjuna is not a fool. He said, "Whatever You have said, I accept them as truth." That is real understanding. But as soon as you make amendment, then you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava [Bg. 10.14]. There are so many rascals, they think "I don't believe in this, I don't believe in this." That is not understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā. Indian man (3): Does it mean that before we, or anybody, before he at all... *Prabhupāda: Before he, if... First of all he must know what is Kṛṣṇa. Then he will understand that what is Kṛṣṇa. That he will understand from Bhagavad*-gītā by this beginning. And at the end Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Lord. So if you know that Kṛṣṇa is Supreme Lord, then whatever He says is correct. Indian man (3): That means the first thing is to accept Kṛṣṇa as God, and then... Prabhupāda: Not blindly. Indian man (3): Not blindly. Prabhupāda: Not blindly. But you must know... Just like if you accept the government, and the government orders, "This man should be hanged," you have to accept it. You cannot protest that "The government has ordered this man should be hanged. It should be protested." And who will care for your protest? Government is government. You cannot criticize. You may criticize on account of your less intelligence, but government order is all. Is it not? If government orders that "This man should be hanged," can you say anything against it? It will not be accepted. Similarly, if you know that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, then as Arjuna said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava [Bg. 10.14]. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram [Bg. 10.12]. Unless you understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's personality, you will try to weight the strength of His words, the value of His words. But if you understand other statement... Just like Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7], "I am the supreme authority." So if He is the supreme authority, then whatever He has said, it is all right. But if you have doubt about He's supreme authority, then you will find out His fault. That is the defect. So if Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the supreme authority..." If you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority, then you will understand that whatever He has said, that is absolute. Now if we become doubtful, that is on account of our less intelligence. Why you are questioning this, that Kṛṣṇa... What you are question? Indian man (3): I said that, as an Indian, suppose I try to speak about *Gītā* or philosophy of Hinduism to people in the neighborhood, either in the office or elsewhere, especially with the Europeans, it becomes a point for discussion where it becomes difficult to convince as to why a person should take action without knowing the consequences or even with knowing that the consequences are going to be bad. For instance, Arjuna had to kill his relatives. If he knows that if he's going to do it, or if somebody, for instance, in a war, he knows that his friends are on the other side, he may find it hard to shoot at them... Prabhupāda: So why Arjuna did later on? Indian man (3): Because I think he took God's... *Prabhupāda: Because he was fool in the beginning, and after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā he became intelligent. Why don't you take in that way? In the beginning, he was rascal. Therefore he needed instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. And when he understood Bhagavad-gītā, what did he say? Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā. Find out this verse. Naṣṭo mohaḥ, "Now my illusion is over." Smṛtir labdhā tvat prasādān madhusūdana. Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: Sthito 'smi gata*-sandehaḥ. "Now all my doubts are over. Now I shall kill." Why did you not say this to your European audience? Indian man (3): Because I don't know the *Gītā* myself that good. *Prabhupāda: Then why do you preach? First of all know, then preach. If you did not know, you should not preach. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. First of all make your life perfect, then try to make others perfect. Don't cheat others. So when Arjuna actually became intelligent, he said sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. This is understanding. "Yes, now I am situated in my proper understanding, I shall carry out Your order." Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard on one lecture tape, you mentioned your Guru Mahārāja has said that in the morning he had to beat the mind into submission. How can we do this? Prabhupāda: Practice this. Your mind, when he says something hodgepodge, just beat him with shoes. Just to bring him in order. Here is the real understanding, that *This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Whether you are prepared to act according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, then your life is successful. Otherwise you are in darkness. So as Arjuna, he was in the darkness... He's kṣatriya. The fight was arranged between the two sections of the family, Pāṇḍavas and Kurus, and when he was to fight actually with his family members, he became bewildered, that "Kṛṣṇa, what is this? I'll have to kill my family members." So then he became His disciple, that "I am kṣatriya, it is my duty to fight. Now I am hesitating." Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ [Bg. 2.7]. "I'm just deviating from my duty, so Kṛṣṇa, I accept You as my guru-kindly give me instruction." So that Bhagavad-gītā was given instruction... [break] He agreed, "Yes, now my illusion is over, I shall fight." This is understanding of Bhagavad-gītā. If you follow Arjuna as he understood, then your understanding of Bhagavad-gītā is perfect. If you do not understand, then you have not understood what is Kṛṣṇa's speaking and what is Bhagavad-gītā. Yes? *Indian man (4): Swamiji, in Bhagavad*-gītā we can see that Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna that "I will not fight for you, but I'll only drive your chariot." Why He refused to fight? Why He didn't fight? *Prabhupāda: That is, because it was fight amongst the family members. So He was also related with the Kuru family. His aunt, Kuntī..., Kuntī was married to the Pāṇḍavas. So the family members may not think that He's partial, so He divided Himself into two. His soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. And Arjuna and Duryodhana were present, requesting Him to take their side. So Kṛṣṇa said that "We are all family members, so I divide Myself into two*-My soldiers and Myself. So if you want, you take Me or My soldiers, as you like, but if you take Me, I say I'll not fight." So Duryodhana thought that "Kṛṣṇa will not fight and He's prepared to give me soldiers," he took the soldiers, and Arjuna said, "No, I want You." So this was the division. So in the beginning He said that "Even if I go to one side, I'll not fight." So how He could fight? Not that He was not a fighter, but because He promised that "The side which will accept, I'll not fight." But He did not say that "I'll not give you instruction of fighting." That is Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Indian man (3): He took the chariot wheel when Bhīṣma pitāmaha was coming to Arjuna. Is that a fight? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another instance, that for His devotee He can break His promise also. That is Kṛṣṇa. Arjuna... Duryodhana complained to Bhīṣmadeva, that "My dear grandfather, because you have affection for Arjuna and others, you are not fighting properly according to your strength." So at that time Bhīṣma saw that "This man is doubting about my sincerity." So he wanted to show his power, so he said, "All right." He knew everything, he was a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa, so he promised to Duryodhana, that "Tomorrow I shall fight in such a way that either Arjuna will die or Kṛṣṇa will have to break His promise." So he fought in such a way that Arjuna was practically vanquished. At that time, Kṛṣṇa took the wheel of the chariot and came before Him, that "Bhīṣma, you stop this fight, otherwise I'll kill you." So Bhīṣma said, "Yes, I am stopping my fight, because You have broken Your promise, that's all." This is the dealing between God and His devotee. There is competition of devotional service. There are so many things. But on the whole, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, the supreme authority; *His instruction is final, and anyone who can understand this, his life is successful. Therefore our request is that don't make unnecessary useless interpretation. You take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is and act accordingly, your life will be successful. This is our mission. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But if you cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā, we can try to explain before you what it is. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests coming in or leaving) Indian man (2): There are many swamis coming from India nowadays, and they are trying to establish, some of them like Gaṇapati temples or the Lord Śiva temples, and so forth, and trying to confuse Westerners, especially Americans, because most of them, they do come to America. Being Indian, how we can help about this confusion? *Prabhupāda: You take Bhagavad*-gītā as standard. Who is the Hindu or Indian there who can refuse the authority of Bhagavad-gītā? So you present them Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then it will not happen. I don't think any Indian or any Hindu can deny the authority of Bhagavad-gītā. Is there anyone? Devotee: No. *Prabhupāda: Then you present them. That is, I have taken, that this is the summum bonum of Indian culture, Bhagavad*-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is accepted all over the world as the greatest book of knowledge, so take this standard and preach, and people will be enlightened, without misinterpretation. *Guest: Here's a swami, Swami Krishna*-prema Idavatakar from Gorakhpur Vinodiya from Calcutta. Indian lady: Swamiji, I made this for you. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. Very nice. He has come here? Let him come. Indian lady: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Indian man (5): Swami? I have one question which is widely discussed everywhere, that eating of meat is sin. Now we see that while for our survival, while walking, while working we kill so many things, knowingly or unknowingly, is it not sin that? Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (to swami guest) Ayi. Give him āsana. Ayi Jaya. (Hindi) What is that question? Just try to understand. *Devotee (2): Why is meat*-eating sin? *Hari-śauri: He said he can understand meat*-eating is sin, but when we are doing our ordinary work and normal functions, aren't we killing so many other things? So is that sin or not? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also sin. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, that whatever you eat, bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt [Bg. 3.13]. Anyone is cooking something, meat or vegetables, for his own eating, he is eating only sin. It is not that the vegetarians are not sinful and the meat-eaters are sinful. Everyone is sinful if it is not cooked for Kṛṣṇa. It is not that we are propagating that you become vegetarian. We are propagating that you become Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our propaganda. But because we are trying to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, we offer something to Kṛṣṇa. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. So not patraṁ puṣpam, whatever within this group available, fruits, flowers, grains, milk, so we offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. If you do not perform yajña, then you will be bound up by the resultant action. So this is yajña, to offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña means to satisfy Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-ārādhyate. Yajña means satisfy Kṛṣṇa. But if you don't Kṛṣṇa's prasādam, then you are sinful. Not that if you become vegetarian, then you are not sinful. Not that. Because you have to eat something. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Either you eat vegetable or meat, you have to eat something. So somebody prefers eating animals, and somebody prefers eating vegetables, but all of them have got life. Therefore you cannot kill any life. So if you eat for yourself, then you are simply eating sin. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt. But if you take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, then if there is any sin, it goes to Kṛṣṇa, you take pure prasādam. And Kṛṣṇa is apāpa-vidham. So our duty is to worship Kṛṣṇa and offer Him so many nice things-fruits, flowers, grains, milk, milk preparation. We are doing that. You are taking prasādam. So that is our business. Is it clear, your answer? Indian man (5): Yes. *Prabhupāda: We are interested in eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam. If Kṛṣṇa says "Give Me meat," we shall give Him. But He does not say. He says patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Meat*-eating is sinful, that's a fact, amedha, tāmasika, but if you remain in the darkness of ignorance, you cannot improve your spiritual life. Tāmasika. It is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, rājasika, tāmasika, sāttvika. Therefore we should eat sāttvika, and that is also after offering to Kṛṣṇa. Then we are free from all sinful reactions. And if you want to implicate yourself in sinful activities, then you can eat whatever you like. But either you eat meat or vegetables, if it is eaten for my satisfaction of the tongue, you become implicated in sinful activities, and you have to suffer the reaction. The animal you are killing, he'll kill also you next life. Then you become bound up. Indian man (6): I have one question. Though there is mention, in earlier times, we see also used to eat meat. Prabhupāda: When? *Indian man (6): Aśvamedha*-yajña, all these things, and before that... Prabhupāda: That is now prohibited. *If you refer to śāstra, the śāstra says in Kali*-yuga these should be avoided. At that time, when there was aśvamedha-yajña, gomedha-yajña, that was not for eating. That was to prove the strength of Vedic mantra, how the animal was put in the fire and again gave him a new life. So where is that Vedic chanter, Vedic brāhmaṇa, yajñika brāhmaṇa? There is no such things, powerful brāhmaṇa. Therefore it is to be avoided. And that was not for eating purpose. To put one old animal in the fire and again he comes back with new life, that was the purpose. This question was raised by Chand Kazi to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu challenged him, that "What is this your religion, you are killing your father and mother?" So he referred to this, that in..., "Formerly they were sacrificing cows in Your śāstra." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained that sacrifice was not meant for eating. That was meant for renovating new life. That is not for eating. Indian man (6): Another question comes. Why, how the caste system has crippled our society so much, was accepted by... *Prabhupāda: Wrongly, wrongly. Kṛṣṇa says, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. So according to quality and work... That is fact. If you have got engineering qualification and if you can work as engineer, people will call you engineer-sāheb. Is it not? So there may be a class of engineer, but that depends on quality and work. But if you have no quality, no work, how you become engineer? If you have no qualification of becoming an engineer, and you do not work, you work as a clerk, and if somebody addresses you "Engineer-sāheb," he is a fool, you are a fool. (laughter) So if he's not a brāhmaṇa, if you call him a brāhmaṇa, then you are fool and he is also fool. So that is going on, fools' paradise. A rascal who is not in qualification a brāhmaṇa, if he's addressed and given honor of a brāhmaṇa, he's sees, "Oh, for nothing I am getting this honor, that's right, very nice." And who is giving him honor as brāhmaṇa, he's also rascal. But it is not that. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Not by birth. One must acquire the quality of a brāhmaṇa. *He must be truthful, he must be self*-restrained, self-controlled, full of knowledge, very simple. All these qualifications, when he acquires, then he becomes a brāhmaṇa. Indian man (6): No, even in *Rāmāyaṇa* and *Mahābhārata* we find this kind of, Ekalavya was discriminated, Karṇa was discriminated... Prabhupāda: Because he was not accustomed to the practice of brāhmaṇa. One must be brāhmaṇa by practice; that is wanted. Indian man (6): This is kind of discrimination though. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man (6): This is kind of discrimination though. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. Never mind if he's born in low-grade family, but he's eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Do you mean to say unless one becomes a first-class brāhmaṇa he can go back to home, back to Godhead? No, that is not possible. So, kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ śudhyanti [SB 2.4.18]. The purificatory process... Just like these Europeans, Americans, they are being recognized as brāhmaṇas because they are pure devotees. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He says kṛṣṇa-bhajane nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra [Cc. Antya 4.67]. Kṛṣṇa-bhajane, if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no such discrimination, even if you make that, because as soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become the best brāhmaṇa. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. He immediately becomes on the brahmam platform. And brāhmaṇa means one who knows brahma. Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇa. So every devotee, if he's purely engaged in devotional service, he's more than brāhmaṇa. And so-called brāhmaṇa, without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is not recognized. Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syād vaiṣṇavaḥ śva-paco guruḥ. If a dog-eater, caṇḍāla, he has become a Vaiṣṇava, he can be guru. But a brāhmaṇa, ṣaṭ-karma-nipuṇo vipro mantra-tantra-viśāradaḥ, avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt. If he's expert, Vedic chanting and everything, mantra-tantra-viśārada, but if he's not a Vaiṣṇava, he cannot become guru. So according to our Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... That is actually according to Vedic injunction. If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you become more than a brāhmaṇa. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and then your life is successful. And Kṛṣṇa is being distributed by Lord Kṛṣṇa. Not only He's giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema, kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is so kind, merciful, He's not only giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema, which is very, very rare. (converses in Hindi with Indians for some time) Indian man (4): Prabhupāda? Buddha was the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, right? Then why he has preached the impersonal form of God? *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. You have got Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam here? Find out that, when Lord Buddha appeared, that verse. Sammohāya sura-dviṣām [SB 1.3.24]. His propaganda was to cheat the atheist class of men. Atheist class of men, they did not recognize existence of God, so He became one of them. Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. This atheist class, they were killing animals in the name of yajña like anything. So yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7], so He came as Buddha to stop this animal killing. His real business was stop the animal killing, that these rascals are going to hell in the name of religion, so at least stop their activities of animal killing. So therefore he started the mission, ahiṁsā paramo dharma: "Don't kill animals." But in the Vedas there is recommendation, in the yajña, as you were saying, that there is..., animal killing is recommended. So people presented that "Here is animal killing recommended in the yajña." Therefore he denied the authority of Vedas. Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. So this Buddha incarnation is cheating the atheist class of men. He said that "Don't kill animals. If you are killed you feel pain. Why you should kill animals?" That was his mission, to stop animal killing, sinful activities. So what was your question? Indian man (4): I just asked why he has preached impersonal form of God. Prabhupāda: Yes, because they were all godless, so he said, "There is no God, but you stop this animal killing." That was his mission. And he said, "There is no God, but whatever I say, you accept." So they agreed. But he is God. That is cheating. Superficially he said there is no God, but he is God. Somehow or other, if people stop animal killing and accept Lord Buddha, then he becomes at least one step forward to God realization. So in a cheating process he made good to others. Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Prabhupāda: Translation. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Then in the beginning of Kali*-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Añjanā, in the province of Gayā, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theists." Prabhupāda: To delude them. Read the purport. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, appeared in the province of Gayā (Bihar) as the son of Añjanā, and he preached his own conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned in the Vedas. At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and animal killing was indulged in unrestrictedly. Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse psychological effects incurred by animal killing. Less intelligent men of the age of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time being they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps for proceeding further on the path of God realization. He deluded the atheists because such atheists who followed his principles did not believe in God, but they kept their absolute faith in Lord Buddha, who himself was the incarnation of God. Thus the faithless people were made to believe in God in the form of Lord Buddha. That was the mercy of Lord Buddha: he made the faithless faithful to him. Killing of animals before the advent of Lord Buddha was the most prominent feature of the society. They claimed that these were Vedic sacrifices. When the Vedas were not accepted through the authoritative disciplic succession, the casual readers of the Vedas are misled by the flowery language of that system of knowledge. In the Bhagavad*-gītā a comment has been made on such foolish scholars. The foolish scholars of Vedic literature who do not care to receive the transcendental message through the transcendental realized sources of disciplic succession are sure to be bewildered. To them, the ritualistic ceremonies are considered to be all in all. They have no depth of knowledge. According to the Bhagavad-gītā, the whole system of the Vedas is to lead one gradually to the path of the Supreme Lord. The whole theme of Vedic literature is to know the Supreme Lord, the individual soul, the cosmic situation and the relations between all these items. When the relation is known, the relative function begins, and as a result of such a function the ultimate goal of life of going back to Godhead takes place in the easiest manner. Unfortunately, unauthorized scholars of the Vedas become captivated by the purificatory ceremonies only, and natural progress is checked thereby. To such bewildered persons of atheistic propensity, Lord Buddha is the emblem of theism. He therefore first of all wanted to check the habit of animal killing. The animal killers are dangerous elements on the path of going back to Godhead. There are two types of animal killers. The soul is also sometimes called the animal, or the living being. Therefore both the slaughterers of animals as well as those who have lost their identity as the soul are animal killers. Mahārāja Parīkṣit said that only the animal killer cannot relish the transcendental message of the Supreme Lord. Therefore if people are to be educated on the path of Godhead, they must be taught first and foremost to stop the process of animal killing as above mentioned. It is nonsensical to say that animal killing has nothing to do with spiritual realization. By this dangerous theory many so-called sannyāsīs have sprung up by the grace of Kali-yuga to preach animal killing under the garb of the Vedas." Prabhupāda: Now there are so many rascals in this dress of sannyāsī, they are eating meat. That is going on. They say, "What is the wrong of eating meat? Can eat." They eat meat. Then? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "The subject matter has already been discussed in the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Maulana Chand Kazi Shaheb. The animal sacrifice as stated in the *Vedas* is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse." Prabhupāda: There, your question. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Because the asuras, or the so*-called scholars of Vedic..." *Prabhupāda: Now you were referring to the Vedic principle, but that does not mean you have to open slaughterhouse. But these rascals are opening slaughterhouse. You think it is Vedic principle? Suppose it is recommended that animals should be sacrificed in the Vedic ritualistic ceremony. Does it mean that you shall open regular slaughterhouse? Just as the Christians say that Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they are right in opening big, big slaughterhouse? Maybe Lord Jesus Christ ate fish in some awkward circumstance, but that does not mean that he is recommending to open slaughterhouse. In the Ten Commandments he says, "Thou shalt not kill." When there is absolute necessity, there is no other food, that is another thing, but if there is sufficient other foodstuff, why should you kill? They are not even human being, those who are animal killers. Vinā paśughnāt [SB 10.1.4]. Those who are animal killers, they are not even human being, what to speak of religious system. Nivṛtta*-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt ka uttamaśloka-guṇa [SB 10.1.4]. If you are animal killer, your God consciousness is finished. You'll never be able to understand what is God. Then your life is finished. This life is meant for understanding God, and if you are animal killer, then your God understanding is finished. Guest (1): May I ask a question, Prabhupāda? Something that I've wondered about, perhaps you could explain it briefly. I believe that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme God, so don't get me wrong, but since you mentioned Christ, was he an incarnation of Kṛṣṇa? Was Jesus Christ sent here by Kṛṣṇa from... Prabhupāda: He says that he is son of God; that is accepted. Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa was Christ's father then. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is father, and Christ is the son. Guest (1): I understand it now. I just wondered. Prabhupāda: He said "I am son of God." Yes. Guest (1): And when he spoke of his father in heaven, he was speaking of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is, yes. Guest (1): I understand. It all fits together now. Indian man (7): Swamiji, how could you convince these Christian people that Christ was the son of God, or Kṛṣṇa was the... Prabhupāda: Christ says himself that "I am the son of God." (laughter) Indian man (7): Many Christians, they do not... Prabhupāda: Many Christians also... There are so many Christian editions. That is another thing. *Bali*-mardana: We have accepted. Prabhupāda: But all these Christians, they all my students, they are coming from Christian. How they accept Kṛṣṇa as the father? Guest (1): Prabhupāda, did Christ return to the spiritual planets then, when he left the earth, to be with Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: He is coming from spiritual planets. He is authorized representative of Kṛṣṇa, we accept him as śaktyāveśa*-avatāra. So I was invited in some priestly meeting in Melbourne, they asked me the question, "What is your opinion of Christ?" So I said "He's our guru." (laughter) Actually, we accept him as our guru. He's preaching God's message; he's Vaiṣṇava. Anyone who accepts God, he's Vaiṣṇava. He was explaining kingdom of God, God. So according to time, circumstances, audience... Now we can just imagine what kind of people he had to deal with, that his commandment is "Thou shall not kill." Then understand how much they were accustomed to killing. So what kind of men they were? And not only that, in spite of hearing his instruction "Thou shall not kill," they killed him first. So what kind of men they were, just imagine. He said, "Thou shall not kill," and they decided, "We shall kill you first." So this class of men he had to deal with. Guest (1): What would happen to the people that killed Christ on the cross? Very bad, it seems. Prabhupāda: : Christ cannot be killed, but they killed themselves. Devotee (3): So we read that Christ said "I and my father are one," so they say therefore Christ is Kṛṣṇa, so therefore Kṛṣṇa can't be God. *Prabhupāda: "One" means in quality. And in the Vedic literature we say ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That means we are one in quality. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. So now we are material-bhūtaḥ, jīva-bhūtaḥ. When we realize that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul, I am part and parcel of God," that is brahma-bhūtaḥ. Then bhakti begins. Then he enters into Vaikuṇṭha, after Brahman realization. So Lord Buddha's finished? Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No. Prabhupāda: Go on, finish it. *Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse. Because the asuras or the so*-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward the evidence of animal killing in the Vedas, Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas. This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted..." *Prabhupāda: Just like, you said that in the Vedas there is animal killing, therefore... [break] That was not killing. So, instead of wasting his time he said "I don't care for your Vedas. It is my order that you stop if you love me." You cannot open slaughterhouse giving reference to the Vedas, or any sacrifice either. The Jews, and everyone, the Muhammadans, they also make sacrifice. One day in the year they sacrifice. It's not that they recommend open a slaughterhouse. This is all nonsense, rākṣasa. That sacrifice also recommended in this sense, that you cannot stop animal killing, there will be a class of men who will eat meat*-to give them some concession. So this is recommended, "All right, if you want to eat meat, you sacrifice." Amongst the Hindus, just like Kālī-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā, the animal eaters, they are given this concession, that "If you want to eat meat, you just worship Goddess Kālī," and this goddess Kālī-worshiping is recommended on the amāvasyā, the dark moon night, one day in a month, at the dead of night. So if one goes on eating meat in this way, one day in a month and dead of night, then he'll automatically give it up. "So much botheration, better give it up." Actually deny. "Yes, you can eat once in a month at the dead of night, when everyone will sleep, nobody can hear the screaming of the animal..." These are the recommendations. That is indirectly denying. If one is intelligent, he'll accept it, "Why so much botheration for eating meat? Better give it up." Indian man (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are so many gurus... *Prabhupāda: We are not talking of so many gurus, we are talking of real guru, that's all, real guru. Real guru is he who talks in disciplic succession of Kṛṣṇa. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. That is guru. The bumifor(?) guru is no guru. Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt. Anyone who is not Vaiṣṇava, he's not guru. First, He says in the Bhagavad-gītā, Bhagavān, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68]. Find out this. He is guru, who is preaching what Kṛṣṇa has taught, he's guru. Not that anyone and everyone becomes a guru. If you want to be cheated by such rascal guru, that is your business, but who is guru, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Anyone who preaches the teachings of Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "You become a guru on My order." "How shall I become guru? I have no knowledge." Oh, you don't require any knowledge to manufacture. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "Simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, you become guru." Everyone can become. The instruction is there. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. We say the same thing. Not that "I have become Kṛṣṇa, not..." We say "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Then you become guru. Kṛṣṇa's instruction, not to become Kṛṣṇa. If you want to become Kṛṣṇa, then you are not guru, you are cheater. Suppose you are working for master. If you say "My master has fixed up this price; *you cannot change it," then you are honest salesman. And if you place yourself that "I am the master," then you are cheater. The cheater cannot be teacher. Teacher is he who simply teaches what Kṛṣṇa has said, that's all. He is teacher. That is not difficult. Anyone can do it. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Whomever you meet, you simply speak to him the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Then you become guru. And if you don't say that, if you manufacture your own words, then you are cheater, you are not teacher. The so-called gurus, they're cheaters. They want to become Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are cheater. And it is very easy thing if you cheat people, that "You take this mantra and you become God." Is it so easy thing to become God? But they want to be cheated. "Purchasing mantra, I shall become God." They want to be cheated. They do not think that "Whether I can actually become God." They do not take the weight of His existence. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Time? So what is the time now? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eight o'clock, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotees: (Offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Prasādam. (Hindi for a few seconds) (end) *Morning Walk-*-July 11, 1976, New York Prabhupāda: I spoke about this cosmic manifestation, where is Vaikuṇṭha, where is... This is a church? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Second Church of Christ Scientists. Hari-śauri: Was it a Catholic church or..., where you went? Rāmeśvara: The Library Party said that everywhere they go in India, they find that you went there first with your first three volumes of *Bhāgavatam*. Especially in New Delhi, they said. There's one institute which had fifty sets of your original first canto, so now they ordered fifty complete sets to complete the books they had. They said that all the major colleges had your original Bhāgavatams in India, first edition. So then they could understand that you were distributing books yourself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: They became very enlivened, inspired. Prabhupāda: In India the sannyāsīs beg, but I did not beg. I sold my Back to Godhead, books. I got income tax free... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You always gave literature. Prabhupāda: I think this church. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Universalist church. You always gave literature in return for donations you received. Prabhupāda: That is going on still. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Knowledge..., what is this? Hari-śauri: It says "Truth, knowledge, vision." Rāmeśvara: This is a museum. Hari-śauri: State of New York Memorial to Theodore Roosevelt. Prabhupāda: Who is this gentleman on the horse? Rāmeśvara: That's one of the former presidents, Theodore Roosevelt. Prabhupāda: This road is very infamous. Hari-śauri: Very infamous? Prabhupāda: Yes, means notorious. They say that black men, they capture white women. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, I've seen it. When I was very young I saw it. I was playing in the park, because I lived next to Central Park, and this, these... We were playing with my friend and his sister, and this black man jumped and grabbed her and raped her right in Central Park. I was only about six years old. Prabhupāda: And what was the age of the girl? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: About twelve. So I have personal experience. Especially in the upper part of this park, about Eighty, Ninetieth, Hundredth Street, there it's very dangerous. Where we are on Fifty*-ninth street, it's not very dangerous. And on the east side down here it's not that dangerous. *Prabhupāda: Just see these black men living in such a highly rich country, and civilized men, but their nature is not changed. Angara satatau tena(?), but they can be changed only in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. No other way. Kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā... [SB 2.4.18]. *Bali*-mardana: Fifty-ninth Street. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a good location. This building is for sale. Prabhupāda: This is that Vedic om or something like that? Hari-śauri: I think so. It says "Om eternal." *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Prabhupāda: The om word is used in English? *Bali*-mardana: Om is very popular in English language for a long time. When they think of mystical things, they think of om. The English, originally because they were in India, they thought to imitate some Indian words. Prabhupāda: Many Indian words have been introduced in dictionary. And many English words is also introduced. That is natural. [break] *Bali*-mardana: ...introduced Kṛṣṇa in the Western world. Prabhupāda: No, it was in the dictionary. *Bali*-mardana: But many people had never heard it before you brought it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And also the dictionary definition is not perfect. *Bali*-mardana: The first time I heard Kṛṣṇa was from Allen Ginsberg. Prabhupāda: He went to India? *Bali*-mardana: And he learned it from you. Hari-śauri: Generally in the dictionary they say Kṛṣṇa is one of the Hindu trilogy, gods. [break] Prabhupāda: ...moha janmani.(?) This world is anitya; you cannot stay here. That is sure, and still we are attached. We make so many arrangements... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, a man sees that his father has died*-everyone is dying-why does he believe that he will not die? Prabhupāda: That is the wonderful thing. Kim āścaryam ataḥ param. Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja said. He was asked, "What is the most wonderful thing in this world?" So he replied, "This is the most wonderful thing, that everyone sees that everyone is dying, he's thinking 'I shall not die.' This is the most wonderful thing." *Bali*-mardana: But the hedonists, they say that "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you will die." Prabhupāda: No, he knows that he'll die, but still he does not prepare, because he's foolish. Pramattaḥ tasya līlānāṁ paśyann api na paśyati. Pramattaḥ, mad, crazy. He sees that everyone dies, "I am also dying," but he does not know what is after death. *Bali*-mardana: He does not know what to do to prepare. Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. So this education, this civilization is so dangerous that everyone is kept in the darkness. And when he dies, this everything is finished, he's going to accept. Whatever body nature gives him, he has to accept. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes people criticize us that we are talking too much about death. Prabhupāda: Because we are not fool like you. Because as sure as death. But you are so fool you do not think of it. So we are not rascal like you. This is the difference. We take practical reality, but you are such a fool you don't care for the reality. So we are not so fool like you are. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But even though you are making so many arrangements to prepare yourself, still you have to die. Prabhupāda: That's all right. I'll die, but I am... Just like one has to go somewhere, he'll know everyone has to go. Man..., suppose a building has to be dismantled. So the tenants or the residents, they make arrangement "Where shall I go next?" And the foolish rascal, he doesn't care. And when the times comes for dismantling the house, he becomes busy, oh, he does not know. That is the difference between you and me. I know this house is to be dismantled, so I'm making preparation where to go and stay. But you are such a fool, you are thinking that we'll stay here. *Bali*-mardana: It's like on the ship they have a drill in case the ship is going to sink, so you know where to go. But they make no preparation where to go after death, which is certain. *Prabhupāda: That is dog's life*-the dog does not know. *Bali*-mardana: They are two-legged dogs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But there's a popular philosophy now that actually the dog is happy. Prabhupāda: Yes, ignorance is bliss. It is folly to be wise. Fool's paradise. Anyone, like a child is happy. There is danger, but child does not care for it. But therefore it is called foolish. That is the difference between child and the child's father. *Bali*-mardana: They may say that he is happy, but he may kill himself at any moment. Rāmeśvara: They say it is impossible for any man to know what will happen to him after death. It is not possible, so why think about it? Prabhupāda: But after all, there is death. So why you are afraid of death? Why you do not die peacefully? Why you protest against death? Huh? If I want to kill you, will you peacefully die? Rāmeśvara: No. Prabhupāda: Why you scream? Why don't you want to die? Rāmeśvara: Give up my life, my body? Prabhupāda: Why you are so much attached to live? That is the question. Now die, "I'm dying, let me die." Why you protest? That means your nature is that you shall live. But you are being interrupted by death. That is the... Rādhāvallabha: The doctors say they have seen death, and it looks very much like a very peaceful sleep. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rādhāvallabha: My mother told me this. She was a nurse, and she's seen many people die, and they all look very peaceful when they die. Prabhupāda: Nobody dies peacefully. (laughs) They shall cry. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have described it very vividly in the *Bhāgavatam*, how horrible it is. Prabhupāda: I have seen one of our relatives, she's dying, and his (her) second son, she's calling, "My dear such and such, I give you in charge, I could not do." Like that. And died. *Bali*-mardana: She was attached. Prabhupāda: Everyone is attached. I have seen one of my nephews, young man. So his young wife and children, when he was... He began to strike his head like that, that "I am dying without any provision for my wife." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is his future? Prabhupāda: Future means he'll have to come back again, either in the same family or in the dog's family, dog's life. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. In this way, he'll take birth and die. Yes. Rādhāvallabha: You were saying they take rest for seven months and wake up a dog. Prabhupāda: Maybe dog or maybe somebody else; that doesn't matter. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the last, about three years ago or so, there is a new branch of study, it is called biomedical ethics, that deals with the symptom of death: How can one define when a person dies? What are the symptoms? and How can we judge that this man is dead? It is a great controversy in medical science. *Bali*-mardana: They went to the Supreme Court to question when does death occur. Prabhupāda: So what Supreme Court will decide? (laughter) What you nonsense judge know? He's also as good a rascal as the person who put the question. *Bali*-mardana: Actually they admitted that they could not decide. Rāmeśvara: The argument is that by medicine or by injecting some, inserting some apparatus, some machine, they can keep the heart beating. Prabhupāda: You rascal, he's another rascal. And one who believes in it, he's also a rascal. Hari-śauri: I was reading the other day that at one university they started a course where they take the students through a course of death. They study death and then they try to get them to... Prabhupāda: If it was possible to keep them by medicine, then no rich men would have died. You have got sufficient means to pay for medicine, and he would have kept his relatives, son alive. Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nṛsiṁha nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ. Prahlāda Mahārāja has said. It is not possible. Rāmeśvara: They are very hopeful that modern medicine can keep them... Prabhupāda: They are hopeful of everything. That is their foolishness. Hope against hope, that's all. The hope will never be fulfilled, still... Therefore they are called pramatta. Pramatta means mad, crazy. Their hopefulness means that is a proof that crazy, mad. *Bali*-mardana: Some of the rich men, they buy a cabinet that their body is put into, and they hope that they will wake up in a thousand years. Prabhupāda: Yes, hope there must be, otherwise how they are foolish? This is called..., what is called? Bakāṇḍo nyāya. Baka, the duck, and aṇḍa, the testicle. So the bull, he has a testicle hanging, and the baka is thinking it is a fish. (laughter) So he's going, he's... (laughter). This is called bakāṇḍo nyāya. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have seen it. Prabhupāda: Everyone knows, this is a common thing in India. You'll see, the baka is going on. He's hoping, "This fish will drop and..." (laughter) Therefore they are baka. Bokā means rascal, bokā means rascal. In India we say any fool, bokā or baka. *Bali*-mardana: Baka is a duck? Prabhupāda: Means that the duck is a fool. Bakāṇḍo nyāya. Very appropriate, this bakāṇḍo nyāya. Logic of duck and testicle. Rāmeśvara: You say they are ghostly haunted. Prabhupāda: Hm? Rāmeśvara: Ghostly haunted. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone, the materialistic man means ghostly haunted. He's talking so many nonsense. The whole grade, philosophy, science and everything, all ghostly talking, that's all. There is no reality. Just like the new science you said, what is that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Huh? Prabhupāda: That new medical science? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Biomedical ethics. Prabhupāda: A big name. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it's a nice name. They started with theology also now, in the speculative branch of philosophy. Prabhupāda: So in spite of these big, big names and research and everything, man will die. This is bakāṇḍo nyāya. He's thinking it will drop. It will never be possible, but they're thinking that by these big, big names we shall find out the way that man will not die. This is bakāṇḍo nyāya. Hope against hope. So by that method they want to live? No. *Bali*-mardana: No. They want to decide when to turn off the machine that is keeping the heart beating, because sometimes the brain stops functioning. The person..., the body is still alive, but there's no consciousness. Prabhupāda: The coma. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also they cut out the hearts when they do these heart transplants. They've been accused of taking out the heart of a living person. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The doctors have been accused of taking out the hearts of living persons. Prabhupāda: Oh. So how to use it? What they'll use? Rāmeśvara: Sometimes if a man is in critical condition he will donate his bodily organs, so they will kill him just to take out his heart so that they can use it for transplanting. *Bali*-mardana: When his brain stops, even though the heart is beating, they take it out. *Prabhupāda: So? (pause) That is the question put by Sanātana Gosvāmī. Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa*-traya. "I want to live, but what is that force that does not allow me to live?" This is the question, this is the question. They are trying to find out so many laws, so many, what is the purpose? They want to live, but there is a force that will not allow you to live. That is the human question. When this question arises, then he is human being; otherwise he's a dog. Dog never inquires. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He has no control over it. Prabhupāda: Huh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He has no control over it. Prabhupāda: Neither he can understand, he has no intelligence. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today is the disappearance day of Sanātana Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is also guru*-pūrṇimā. Prabhupāda: Today? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: : Yes. Is there some special celebration or significance? *Prabhupāda: Guru*-pūjā, that you are doing daily. (reads sign) "Model sailboat." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the children come here, not only children but adults, and they have some model, toy models which they sail around. Prabhupāda: So it is not very deep. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. It's a very colorful display. Hundreds of people come, especially on Sundays, sailing their boats. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? In this biomedical science, this ethics, there's a problem arising. The person, the family of the person who is suffering, says that "Please don't apply these machines. Let the person die." But the medical doctors say "No, we'll keep him alive as long as we can go on." So this is a problem. So who's right? Is the family right, or... Prabhupāda: Family right. Family is intelligent, that "You are rascal, why you are trying? Let him die peacefully." *Bali*-mardana: They say "Let him die in dignity. Why keep him in the machine?" The family says "Let him die in dignity." Rāmeśvara: They keep him in coma. Prabhupāda: After all, you cannot protect. Why you give trouble at the time of death? You cannot protect; your foolish attempt will not help him. This is the same philosophy, that the animal is suffering, to kill him. Mercy of killing, what is called? Rāmeśvara: Mercy killing. Prabhupāda: So this is nonsense. Mercy killing. Killing mercy. (laughs) Just see. The action is killing, and that is his mercy. This is their mercy. All contradictory. Killing by mercy? Mercy is killing? Hari-śauri: There's an example that's just going up to the courts now. There's one family, their daughter was being supported by one machine, so one day they went in early and pulled out the plugs. So now they are being taken to court. They stopped the machine because she'd been in a coma for so long, so they just pulled out the plugs and everything, the machine. So that's what they call mercy killing. They don't like the doctors just to keep them there uselessly. Rāmeśvara: But then they want to kill the old people. This mercy killing, they think that "An old man is suffering, so let us kill him." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think if someone dies in their sleep, they are very lucky. Prabhupāda: It is dangerous to die here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not as dangerous as in Africa. I saw one movie, and there's one tribe, that when a man becomes very old... Prabhupāda: Yes, I've heard of that. Hari-śauri: They throw him on the roof, and then eat him. Prabhupāda: That is a feast. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Love feast. *Prabhupāda: Grandfather feast. Now great*-grandfather feast. Cyavana: We're preaching to them, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Trying to change them. Rāmeśvara: Also the Eskimos, when a man gets old, if he is an Eskimo, then he has to go out into the icelands and wait for some animal to kill him. He cannot stay at home and be supported by the family. *Bali*-mardana: He eats too much, they say. Rāmeśvara: Too much burden. *Bali*-mardana: Because he's eating, and he is not able to go and hunt, they send them out to die. Prabhupāda: The Communists also, they'll do. All old men should be killed. That time is coming. Don't become old. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are teaching us to remain young forever, Prabhupāda. Svarūpa Dāmodara: One must become Kṛṣṇa conscious to become young. *Prabhupāda: So many difficulties will come unless there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66], if you want to be happy. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's true. If people are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the origin(?) of these problems like death... *Bali*-mardana: You are instructing us to finish up our business in this life. Prabhupāda: Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja was put into so many dangerous conditions. He was not afraid. "Hare Kṛṣṇa," he would just chant. Cyavana: All over the entire world we find the Indian community, practically speaking. Is this part of Lord Caitanya's plan to help spread this Vedic culture? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order, that you speak the Vedic culture. That is India's mission. But these rascals, they are speaking technology. Devotee: Try to make money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that it is due to this culture that India has been kept down. Because the British taught them that, and now they themselves think like that. Prabhupāda: Still, any Indian who comes to speak about some culture like this, you flock together. Why? Why you go to this Maharishi, this Bal Yogi, and this one. Why? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're from India. Prabhupāda: Because you expect something from India. They are cheating, that is different thing, but you go there to get something from India. That's a fact. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means you have delivered the real goods, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. They're expecting. I read some articles from India: they're expecting some good message. *Bali*-mardana: They are like glowworms, and you are like the sun. Prabhupāda: No, they know that "These people they are wanting something, so let us go and cheat." This is going on. *Bali*-mardana: They're simply businessmen. Prabhupāda: So far I am concerned, I have not come here to cheat you nor to gain. I've come to execute the order of my Guru Mahārāja. *Bali*-mardana: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I have no business to cheat you neither to get something from you. Devotee: Prabhupāda, is it possible that a living entity, a jīva soul, can have pastimes in relation to God? Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: If it's nonsense... *Bali*-mardana: He's a crazy boy. *Prabhupāda: [break] Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, para*-upakāra. One who is to come from India, he should come for para-upakāra, for doing welfare to others, not to cheat them. But these people, they come. In the name of para-upakāra, they cheat. Which way we have to go? Devotees: This way. *Bali*-mardana: Prabhupāda, you are the only Indian who has taken up this mission, out of six hundred and eighty million. Woman: Don't touch that dog. He's wearing a muzzle. Just leave him alone, he won't trouble you. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What she said? Hari-śauri: She said don't touch the dog, it's wearing a muzzle. Rādhāvallabha: She should wear a muzzle. Prabhupāda: [break] ...come with dog. Dog is not allowed. Rādhāvallabha: That's her family. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rādhāvallabha: That's her family. Cyavana: Sometimes they say "I treat my dog just like he were my own child." Prabhupāda: "Dog's mother." Why don't you call in one word, "I am dog's mother." (laughter) Hari-śauri: They keep all kinds of things as pets. My mother knew a woman who kept a pet pig. She used to carry it around like a dog, in her arms, with a little bow. Prabhupāda: When the natural tendency is to get child, but child is killed, and a pig is taken. This is their civilization. Child is killed and pig is taken, dog is taken. This is their civilization. *Bali*-mardana: They are preparing for their next birth as a pig. Prabhupāda: Yes. Naturally you take child, take it: "No, that kill." And take artificially a pig or dog or cat. Take it. Tripurāri: They say animal has no soul, therefore they can kill the cow and eat the meat. But when we say "What if I cut your dog's head off," they become very upset. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Why upset? It has no soul. Kill it. Hari-śauri: They cannot explain it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was one story that this family came, they were touring the world, and they came to Hong Kong, and they were carrying their pet dog with them also. So they went to one restaurant and they left their dog tied up on a leash outside the restaurant, because that is the custom in America. So they told the man at the door, the doorman, they pointed to the dog, just to take care of the dog. So anyway, then they went in and they had their dinner and they came out, and the dog was gone. They said (laughter) "Where's my dog?" And the man said, "Well, you pointed to him, we have prepared him for you." Prabhupāda: Yes, they do that. He thought that he has pointed out this dog. Hari-śauri: They brought their dinner with them. Tripurāri: Man cannot understand, but a little child can understand very easily. Just like one of our book distributors, Praghoṣa, when he was a young child they had a pet duck, the family, and one day the father killed the duck and put him on the table. They roasted the duck and put him on the table, but none of the children would eat. They became sick and they left. They would not eat. The father could not understand. Hari-śauri: My father did that with a pet rabbit that I had as well. Came home from school one day and it was gone. Prabhupāda: They are eating their own child... Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, we come from the lowest of the low. (in car) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about the possibility of opening more than one temple in this city? Just like if there's a good building on the East Side, if we can manage, what about the possibility of that? Prabhupāda: If you can manage, very good. In a city like New York you can have ten, twelve centers. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I mean the Christians have so many churches in every part of the city. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Similarly, we can have temples. Rāmeśvara: You said that once in Los Angeles to me. Prabhupāda: That Juhu temple, Akasganga, you know? Everyone asked me not to go there, "Nobody will go there." I said "It is Bombay city. Wherever you shall go, people will come." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The question is whether, if we open another temple, it will increase the total number of people coming, or whether simply the same people will come to two different locations. Prabhupāda: Yes, if you have got demand, then you can open. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: First let us fill up this place. Rāmeśvara: In other words, instead of filling up that building and then just buying a new one, you just buy a second temple. And keep it that way. Prabhupāda: That's a good building. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We shouldn't give it up. Very good facility. Especially once we make all improvements on it, why we should give it up? Better to simply open another one. Prabhupāda: And that is advertised means nobody's purchasing at this quarter, it is not very safe. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This quarter? No, this is the most prestigious. Fifth Avenue between Seventy*-ninth Street and Thirty-fourth Street is the prime location. That's about as far north as you would want to go. Any further north uptown will not be nice, but this area here is very select. The best area is from Fifty-ninth Street to Thirty-fourth Street on Fifth Avenue, where all the shops are, the library. That area is very high class. This is Fifty-seventh Street, Fifty-fifth Street. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, if the spiritual master has a mission, is it proper for the disciple to think that he can take more than one..., he can take many births to help the mission of the spiritual master? *Prabhupāda: When the spiritual master goes there, somewhere, his nearest assistants, they automatically go there to assist him. When Kṛṣṇa comes the demigods also come to help Him. That is there in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. All these Yadus, Yadu family, they came from heaven. So before Kṛṣṇa's disappearance, by some trick they were all killed and they returned to their original place. It is nicely described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Just see, small house, this yellow. Still, in New York City. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, small little house. (end) *Comments on Bhagavad*-gétä Play--July 12, 1976, New York *Prabhupāda: ...of this human being, people do not know how they are kept in ignorance. And because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, out of His causeless mercy He comes to deliver us from this ignorance. Unfortunately, they are so much engrossed by the illusory energy, they do not take advantage of the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. So therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is being propagated that these dull-headed mūḍha*-they are being described as mūḍha, dull-headed; *they do not know actual interest of life. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. These dull-headed conditioned souls, they do not know their real self-interest, being influenced by māyā. Māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's energy, so it is her duty to punish the conditioned soul because they have decided to forget Kṛṣṇa. Still, Kṛṣṇa is so merciful, He comes personally, He authorizes His devotees, servants, to enlighten these conditioned souls. Now our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an humble attempt to raise the standard of these conditioned souls to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Those who are engaged in this business, they should personally behave as devotee, and by their example they should teach others and elevate them from this gross ignorance of materialistic life. Thank you very much. [break] Rāmeśvara: Either by your books, by the dioramas and by the dancing. Devotees: Jaya, Haribol Prabhupāda! [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what is your opinion, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes, nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They also have a performance to show you of Satish Chandra Ghosh's play. Satish Chandra Ghosh, remember that play that we received in Māyāpura, that Nitāi had translated? "Lust and Envy," you gave it to Madhudviṣa, myself and Sudāmā, and you were saying "Just think how to perform this." Prabhupāda: Satish Chandra? *Sudāmā: Ghosh. He's a playwriter. In Māyāpura we received two scenes from the entire translated in Vṛndāvana*-in January when we were there together. Prabhupāda: Satish Chandra or Girish Chandra? Devotees: Girish Chandra. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Girish Chandra. Prabhupāda: Girish Chandra Ghosh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they've prepared one of his dramas also. We wanted to show you on Friday. Actually, we can show you Wednesday now. We'll only be leaving Thursday, Wednesday night. *Sudāmā: It is incomplete. It is only the first two scenes, and the rest of the drama is four acts of caitanya*-līlā. So we are waiting anxiously for the rest of the drama to come. Presently it is incomplete. Prabhupāda: So how'll you show the incomplete? *Sudāmā: In Māyāpura you were interested to see the first..., or see the scene of the enemies*-anger, lust, greed, envy-so we have worked on it. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Kali, Kali*-yuga. Sudāmā: Yes, Kali. So as the scenes come we are planning to work on them in that succession. Prabhupāda: You have already worked? Sudāmā: Yes, on the first two scenes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have made a very accurate portrayal of the material world. Actually, the guests who come on Sundays, they very much appreciate these performances. I've seen myself sometimes at the end of the performance, they will give a very big ovation of applause. For even one, two minutes in a row, they continue to applaud. They very much appreciate it. People are fond of seeing things enacted, theater and dance. Prabhupāda: Generally attended by Indians? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, all the guests come. No, actually this kind of performance will be more appreciated even, I mean the ordinary American people will very much appreciate it. Prabhupāda: Do they come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Usually at least half or more of our attendance on Sunday is from the Americans. *Sudāmā: And here in New York is very much a theatrical city, entertainment, Broadway and... This theater we have here in our temple is situated in off*-Broadway. Our theater downstairs is as high a standard in its interior as any other off-Broadway theater house. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are two classes, Broadway and off*-Broadway theater. Two different classifications. Broadway is very costly, big productions, very elaborate, and off-Broadway is more simple, but also very often there are good plays there. So this particular temple is located in an off-Broadway location. And actually it's very prestigious. We can advertise, and people will attend. They will definitely attend, and they'll even pay for the performances. We don't feel that we should charge yet, until the caliber of the performance is first class and until they have some full program. Because right now, just like this play only took about..., the dance only took about twenty-five minutes. Prabhupāda: Altogether. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Unless they have something that is at least two hours, one and half, two hours, you cannot charge for. People will definitely pay. Prabhupāda: Pay or not pay, doesn't matter. They should understand the meaning.(?) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you feel that the message of the *Gītā* came through? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Sudāmā: The precedence of our work, Śrīla Prabhupāda, should definitely be that the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is clearly understood by all, is that correct? Prabhupāda: Along with it, if you, the same thing, more demonstrative, if you put some movies... *Bali*-mardana: Slides. Prabhupāda: Slide or movie, that will be... Sudāmā: Mixed media. That is also very much appealing to the public. Our future projection plan is to work on the advent of Lord Kṛṣṇa for Janmāṣṭamī, which is about an hour production, to an hour and a half. And then we were planning to work on the *Rāmāyaṇa*, if it was suiting or agreeable by Your Divine Grace. *Prabhupāda: The whole basic principle is this, that people should understand, as I was explaining this morning, the sat and asat. So at the present moment we are living in the way that is asat. But there is another life, sat. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to raise a person from the asat platform to the sat. Under illusion they are, what is called, amock? They (laughs) have gone amock. So it is a humble attempt to stop their, this suicidal policy. They are practically committing suicide. They do not know what is the value of life and how they are spoiling it, this valuable life. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are trying to adjust things by the arrangement of external energy. That is not possible. Whatever adjustment they are making, so many big, big leaders, politicians, they came. Napoleon, Hitler, Gandhi, this, that, by the waves of material nature everything is driven away. In that way there is no possibility of adjustment. It is not... Kathacaturamanam mali mali javanam(?) How many, caturānana. Caturānana means Brahmā. They come and go, come and go. And there is no permanent life, it is all asat. So they should come to the sat platform, that is perfect. The more you remain strong in your spiritual life, then more it will be impressed, it will act. And if it actually is not spiritual life but theatrical performance, then it will not help. *Bali*-mardana: Hmm. Very important. In your book you say that when it is acted by pure devotees, then it is powerful. Prabhupāda: So do your best, try your best. That is very good. Sudāmā: Thank you, Prabhupāda. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya. Prabhupāda: Jaya. (end) *Morning Walk-*-July 12, 1976, New York Prabhupāda: This is their position, and they are proud of their knowledge. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not at all scientific. *Bali*-mardana: But they make up many very big words. *Prabhupāda: That any rascal will do. Bambharambhe laghu kriya. Aparkulasvenavargolajagundakuligondoliojalīlāvale... (gibberish) (laughter) You can talk like that*-what is the meaning? That intelligence they have got, to manufacture... I know, I was in the medical business. So any petty medicine, and you inquire medical man, and he'll present it in such a scientific way that people will think that it is very important thing. I know it well. In Bose's laboratory we used to do that. Aparkulavenavargolajdgunda... This is... (gibberish) Simply soda bicarb and little this and that. So the modern world means how to befool persons, that's all. Not to enlighten, but to keep them in ignorance and befool them more and more, and they like it. Under the influence of māyā they like to be cheated. (sounds of fire engines) Now just see the whole night there is blazing fire, and they are thinking they are happy. And if we sing saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka **, "the material world is blazing fire," that is sentiment. And this is not practical. Whole day and night, simply fire, disturbing. Such a big important city, and they are disturbing always twenty four hours, gongongongongongongon. They are so expert that this ordinary fire they can control. Another side is that nobody wants this fire, and why it is coming? Yathā duḥkha... Prahlāda Mahārāja, long, long years ago: yathā duḥkham ayatnataḥ. As this fire business is coming without my endeavor, similarly, the other part, distress, this is distress, other part, happiness, also will come. Why shall I endeavor for it? So my energies should be utilized only for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is civilization. And whole life, day and night, they are trying for material happiness, and that is not happening. The problems are increasing. No intelligence, mūḍha. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. They admit, the scientists, they admit that they are in ignorance. Simply bluff. Again one bluff, that Mars-going expedition. The business is going on in the Arizona, that's all. And after few years they will present some stone, "Now we went to Mars. There is no possibility of living there. Take this stone and sand and be satisfied for your millions of dollars that you have spent..." And they will say "Oh, we have made scientific progress. I have got this stone." Yo ko thako bhayargolihiya us ka tek lilaya(?). There is a song in Bengal that formerly anything European, sāheb, that is good. So one person is selling meat, flesh of dog. Flesh of dog nobody takes, at least in India. So he said that "This is not ordinary dog. This is the dog which was killed by Viceroy, that dog. And because Viceroy killed it, therefore it has become nice dog. You can eat it." So, anything these so-called scientists said, that is to be accepted. Without any common sense. This is your intelligence. But I am fool Indian, I don't believe it. (laughter) I immediately capture the point, why this rascal is talking of Arizona? That means the whole business is going on in Arizona. Rāmeśvara: Deliberately cheating. You said that in Los Angeles. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda's saying gāyatrī. Prabhupāda: Brought newspaper, and as soon as they say... Who said? Hari-śauri: That was in Washington. They showed a picture of Mars... Prabhupāda: Stop, don't read, it is now understood what is.... Mars, it is all in Arizona. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were very perceptive to find it. Rāmeśvara: No one is thinking like that. You are the only one who caught that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Because I am the only one at the present moment intelligent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are still as dull (Prabhupāda laughs) as the karmīs. We would never have thought like that, Prabhupāda, about Arizona. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They mentioned that the pictures of Mars appear just like some of the picture of national parks in Arizona. Prabhupāda: In other places they could not find, throughout the whole world, Arizona. That means the whole business is going on in Arizona. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say that if this terrain were on the earth, we would immediately make it a national park, it looks just like one of the national parks. *Bali*-mardana: In Arizona there is much government land. I passed through there recently. So there is good facility for them to make secretly. Prabhupāda: Yes. The moon business was done there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This means it's definitely a very calculated plot to cheat the public. Prabhupāda: That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the whole, all of the nations... Prabhupāda: Just to convince people that our, this rascal civilization is advanced. Rāmeśvara: International conspiracy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means all the nations are cooperating in this project. Rāmeśvara: Russia and America. *Prabhupāda: All the so*-called scientists. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do they know that they are, are they talking with each other, or are they just... *Prabhupāda: No, they are knowing. They talk. Chauri chauri mātṛka*-bhāi.(?) Rāmeśvara: It's a conspiracy. Prabhupāda: All thieves, they are cousin brothers, "Don't expose me and I'll not expose you. Let us keep peace." Two thieves, he knows he is a thief, but if he wants to reveal a thief, then his business will be suffer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are the greatest cheaters. *Prabhupāda: Chauri chauri mātṛka*-bhāi.(?) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Except for you, no one is blowing the whistle on these people. You are like a transcendental detective. Prabhupāda: (microphone rattling) That is the test. Kṛṣṇa says na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's a mūḍha. (microphone rattling more) It's a fact. *Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Los Angeles I asked you about this one verse in the Bhāgavatam where it says that in a previous Kali*-yuga the materialists were able to travel to other planets. And then it said Lord Buddha appeared to stop them, that they were creating havoc. But you said that was possible in this age also that they may be able to do that. Prabhupāda: Yes. (devotees offer obeisances) [break] (in car) Rāmeśvara: ...can't ever go to these other planets. Prabhupāda: Yes, they can go. Rāmeśvara: They will be able to land there? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, why not? Rāmeśvara: Because their body is meant... *Prabhupāda: Even Arjuna even went higher planetary systems. But different way. In Bhagavad*-gītā it is yānti deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. And formerly when big, big sacrifices were done, they used to come and attend sacrifice. Rāmeśvara: The demigods. But in this earth body they can go to another planets? Prabhupāda: Yes. But he must be competent. The yogis can go. Perpetually, they can go. Just like Durvāsā Muni did. He went. Hari-śauri: But they want to go and come back. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: But they want to go and come back. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is going. Devotee (1): They are actually confounded by the element of time. They think that if they go in a spaceship they can then generate another human being by putting a man and a woman in the spaceship, and they can continue on for some time like that. Prabhupāda: That is theory. It is theory. Devotee (1): That's their idea to reach very distant places. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today I was seeing in our kīrtana hall that there must be now about a hundred and, at least a hundred and seventy devotees here, a hundred and seventy*-five devotees. But still the kīrtana hall was not even half full, I think. It can hold at least four hundred people, that hall. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is big hall. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a lot of empty space. Rāmeśvara: How many guests came yesterday? Did you tell Prabhupāda? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there were about five hundred, over five hundred guests. (loud short ambulance blast, laughter) Rāmeśvara: Some ambulance. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Rāmeśvara: Some ambulance. Somebody is sick. Right now in New York City there is a big strike. The people who work in the hospitals, they refuse to work. They want more salary. Prabhupāda: What can be done? Price raising, they want all comforts. Rāmeśvara: So if someone is sick they will not take him to the hospital because there is no one to take care of him there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This school is called Amsterdam School, Prabhupāda, because this is Amsterdam Avenue. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very funny that Ninth Avenue turns into Amsterdam Avenue at this point. Ninth Avenue becomes Amsterdam Avenue on about Sixtieth Street. Rāmeśvara: Yesterday there was a big parade in New York City, all people who are against abortion, they were marching. The U.S. is having a presidential election, so the Democratic party, they are having their convention in New York City to decide who will be their candidate for President. So all these people were marching to try to convince him to be against abortion. But he has already said he will not take any issue, he will not take a stand, because it is too controversial. Prabhupāda: Who? Rāmeśvara: The Presidential candidate. He will not give his opinion. Devotee: Who is that, Reagan? Rāmeśvara: No, Carter. They are unwilling to give their opinion because then someone may not vote for them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, that's too controversial. Most people are for abortion. Prabhupāda: Why they are for abortion? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because it gives them unlimited room for sense gratification. The whole business is... Prabhupāda: So why not become brahmacārī? Devotee (1): They want to dance without paying the piper. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I tell them "Birth control by self control." That is our program. Prabhupāda: Besides that, why birth control? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say because the world is overpopulated. Prabhupāda: So much vacant land in your country. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, everywhere in the world. When we fly in the airplane, every country, mostly it's vacant land. It's only these big demoniac cities. *Rāmeśvara: Their philosophy is first we'll conquer nature, then we'll talk about self*-control. That is one philosophy. *Prabhupāda: Which is impossible. They'll never be able. You can control nature only by self*-control. Otherwise, it is not possible. Ajitendriyāṇām. Ajitendriya means those who cannot control the sense, sense organs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Famous address because you were there, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Hmm. Number one hundred. *Hari-śauri: Seventy*-second Street. *Prabhupāda: One hundred, Seventy*-second Street. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe we can go by it. On the way back if we go by, you could show us the building there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we will be able to see it. Hari-śauri: Is that the flat that you were staying in that was broken into? Is that the place that was broken into? Prabhupāda: It is not residential. Hari-śauri: Oh. Prabhupāda: But I was residing there. Rāmeśvara: That was where the typewriter was stolen? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tape recorder, typewriter. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, from up here. Prabhupāda: It was stolen by that caretaker, a black man. He expected some monthly remuneration. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The same thing happened at our temple here. They were employing one man for cleaning the floor. So after a while I told them "Now fire this man." So anyway, they fired him. As soon as they fired him he stole a big air conditioner, worth five hundred dollars. Anyway, he came back later and we got the air conditioner. I caught him and I said "Now bring it back," and I sent a devotee with him and he brought the air conditioner back. (pause) "Hall of Minerals and Gems." Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are having a big exhibit of minerals and gems, Museum of Natural History. One thing about this museum, it can give Bhāradvāja many ideas for doll exhibits. Rāmeśvara: Yes, I'm going to go there with him when he comes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This particular museum, we used to go when we were children, and fantastic exhibits, really realistic. Rāmeśvara: Yes, dolls, dioramas... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, all dioramas. Rāmeśvara: ...of dinosaurs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, the whole thing is dioramas, the whole museum practically. I'll go with you also. Rāmeśvara: They are convinced that dinosaurs, these gigantic animals, were living on this planet millions of years ago. They found some bones, and they have created the form of the animal body. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it true that there were big dinosaur bodies? Prabhupāda: If they were, it is still now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, wow. Prabhupāda: We don't say it is extinct. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you've explained that even if not here then it must be on another planet. Prabhupāda: Yes, another. This planet, what you have seen? Rāmeśvara: That's the point, what we have seen about this planet? Devotee (1): Could still be here. They found one in, where is that? In Ireland? Prabhupāda: Cannot be extinct, that is not possible. Devotee (1): In that lake? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But do you think they were on this planet? Prabhupāda: No, no, may be on this planet, but it doesn't matter that it is extinct. You have not seen. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's a fact. Rāmeśvara: Their idea is that at that time man was living in the form of half monkey, half man in a cave, and gradually he evolved to become more civilized. Prabhupāda: That is still there. Kinnaras. Kinnaras means it is doubtful whether he is man or monkey. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. *Prabhupāda: There is a Kinnara*-loka. Kimpuruṣa. Kinnara. They are still existing. It is not that they are finished. Hari-śauri: I was reading a magazine when we were on the plane, and it was describing this type of monkey man, that they are being called, they existed in snow wastes. Prabhupāda: Or what is called? The big...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Orangutan, gorilla. Prabhupāda: Gorilla, they are like men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they are. Very much like men. We see them in the zoo. Prabhupāda: They have got their senses like men. Hari-śauri: There's another species they call the Yeti. They say it exists in the Himalayan regions. But they've not been able to capture one because, uh... But there's been many citings and reportings of it. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These scientists, they find one little bone and they make a hundred*-foot body out of their mind. They say, "Well if this bone was like this, then the whole thing must have looked like this." Rāmeśvara: That is the Museum of Natural History. They spend millions of dollars on these museums, making these displays. [break] (walking) Prabhupāda: ...for dog, means she's going to become dog. She does not know how she is spoiling the life. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unless she gets one of our books. Prabhupāda: No, that is another plan. At least she does not know how things are going on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, unless someone gets one of your books, there's no way they can come out of the darkness of this material world. There's no other source of knowledge for the people nowadays. *Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Śrīmad*-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiṁ vā anyaḥ śāstraiḥ. When there is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, composed, compiled by Vyāsadeva, where is the use of other literature? Śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte. (pause) Dusty, eh? No one is taking care. *Bali*-mardana: They cannot afford to pay the garbage men to clean up the mess. Prabhupāda: Why he's going there? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's another lake over there. So we are checking for tomorrow's walk, if it is also a good path. That's a natural, not natural, a little more natural lake. Prabhupāda: Well, this is good lake. People are becoming dishonest. They'll take money and do nothing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm seeing down at Dalhousie Square area that the government employees, they are constantly taking tea break. They come late to work... Prabhupāda: I have seen in New Delhi, I was going to sell my Back to Godhead, so they were all sitting and gossiping, and files are piled up. If you want some file it will take six months. Doing nothing. Sixty percent of the employees are simply wasting time. Hari-śauri: City workers are very famous for not doing anything, taking tea breaks. Prabhupāda: Why they will do? When they get money without doing? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we could just introduce to them the chanting, they could be great yogis, sitting chanting, and have so much free time. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Just see, why this wood is dried up? Why? Hari-śauri: There is no spirit soul in it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has been severed from the tree. Prabhupāda: Yes, from the, it is out of touch from the original bark. Similarly, any civilization which is out of touch of God consciousness, that will dry up in due course of time. *Devotee (1): Yesterday, Svarūpa Dāmodara-we were speaking about the scientists*-he said that they don't accept our proof that God exists as being any more conclusive than their proof that He doesn't exist. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (1): In other words, they don't accept that we have any proof that God exists. They say God doesn't exist. Prabhupāda: God exists, we have given so many proofs. If the rascal cannot understand, what can be done? There is mother, there is children; where is the father? This is our argument. Mother, the earth is mother, and everything, these trees, we are all coming out of mother, mother nature. And who is the father? What is the answer? Now, what the atheist will say that there is no God? How they will say? Rāmeśvara: They say the earth is the mother and the father. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rāmeśvara: They say the earth is the mother and the father. Prabhupāda: No. That is another nonsense. Because you cannot see, practically, the mother and father is the same person. That is not..., father is different. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why doesn't life come from the concrete then? Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, mother and father cannot be one, they must be two. Our practical experience. So how can I accept a rascal like you that father and mother the same? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we see that Lord Brahmā is born from the same father and mother. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lord Brahmā, he has no mother. Prabhupāda: But he has a father, and the mother is that lotus flower. Rāmeśvara: Material energy. Devotees: Oh. Rādhāvallabha: There's a classification of animals called autotroph(?). An autotroph is... Prabhupāda: First of all, you study your animal, whether your father and mother is the same. Then go to other animals. First of all your animal, you study first. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They can say though that the material nature is mother and father in this way, that both the mother and father are products of the material energy. Rāmeśvara: They want this impersonalism. They don't like the philosophy of personalism. Prabhupāda: Whole thing is personalism. You are talking because you are a person. You are talking all nonsense because you are person. Neither the air is talking, neither sky is talking. Because you are a person you are talking so many nonsense things. Devotee (1): But then they'll say that after death that person doesn't exist any longer. That personality ceases to... Prabhupāda: Talk of the present, when you are existing. Devotee (1): Yes. Their mentality forces them to believe only what they see. Prabhupāda: You see there is father and mother. Why don't you believe that there must be a father and mother for the whole cosmic? You see everywhere there is father and mother. Devotee (1): But they don't accept that as God's arrangement. Prabhupāda: That means a crazy fellow. They manufacture their own idea. There is no reason. Rāmeśvara: They say within the father and mother is the cosmic energy of life. *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we find the father and mother for begetting children. So as there are so many children... And that is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. They are all children, but their mother is the earth. There must be father. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say father and mother is material. This is father and mother. They may agree, we have a human father, mother. Prabhupāda: The principle. The principle. You have to see the principle. That is philosophy. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't agree that God is the seed*-giving father, though. They will say "How can you jump to the conclusion that God is the seed-giving father of everything?" *Prabhupāda: God says. Not only says, we don't see any production without seed*-giving father. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we don't see God. We see the tree is giving seeds. Prabhupāda: But you don't see your father; does that mean there was no father? Suppose before your birth your father died, does it mean you have no father? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: My mother has seen him. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. You ask the mother, and she will inform you. The mother is Vedic knowledge. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we accept that everything has a father and mother, but the creation was always there. That has no father and mother. Prabhupāda: That is your nonsense, without father and mother, aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Before creation, the child was created, the father was there. Rāmeśvara: They say that matter can neither be destroyed nor created. It exists eternally. But there is no need for a creator. Prabhupāda: Why your body does not exist? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It does exist, but in a different form. Prabhupāda: No, at least this body does not exist. This body was not in existence, it was created, and at the present you see, and in the past this body will not remain there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the energy will be there. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That energy is eternal. Prabhupāda: That is there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And there's nothing else besides this energy. Prabhupāda: Yes, but whose energy? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why does it have to be any whose? It just is there. Hari-śauri: Just energy by itself needs direction. Prabhupāda: Don't waste time. You stop this. If you imitate a madman, then you become mad. (laughter) Don't try to talk on behalf of these madmen. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The principle is there, though, that there must be a father and a mother. Prabhupāda: That's it. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, in New York City, many of these big buildings have courtyards, and in the courtyards they have purchased sculpture. So all the sculpture is abstract. They are against form; they are all impersonalists. And they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to have these gigantic structures. All over New York City you see them. They have no form. Prabhupāda: That is a form. The structure itself has a form. Rāmeśvara: But it's abstract. Prabhupāda: No, it is not ab..., it is form. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not personal, that's what he means. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a form of their imagination, that's all. Not standard form, but it is a form. They want to make everything formless with form. That means they cannot avoid form. Devotees: Oh, jaya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...political satires. Critic of the government put the criticism in the form of a children's story, but indirectly was criticizing the government. Prabhupāda: [break] ...reason they cannot keep this park neat and clean? In other cities they keep. *Ādi*-keśava: They cannot pay the workers. Prabhupāda: How is that? In America, city, New York, they cannot pay? Hari-śauri: New York almost went bankrupt. Devotee (1): They have mismanaged the whole thing. Hari-śauri: They had big strikes last year or early this year. They wouldn't clear the garbage away, and the whole city was piled up with garbage everywhere. *Devotee (2): Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam says in this Kali-yuga they are all lazy, misguided. Prabhupāda: So much drinking, they must be lazy. Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So much drinking excessively. Drinking means laziness. Rāmeśvara: Also the banks, they loan the city money, but at a very high interest rate. So then the city cannot afford it. Hari-śauri: People nowadays are so filled with intoxications they are not fit to do anything. Rāmeśvara: They loan the city money at a very high interest rate, so in order to pay it back they have to borrow more money. Prabhupāda: Dried up on account of being detached from the original bark. Similarly, as soon as any civilization detached from God consciousness, they'll dry up. Devotee (1): Simply buildings and cement, that is their culture. *Bali*-mardana: Except for India, no civilization has lasted very long. Prabhupāda: No, cannot last. Hari-śauri: And as soon as they started to give up their culture in India, they're also dried up. *Prabhupāda: They'll dry. That is the nature's way. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. Anyone detached from God consciousness, he has no qualification. Manorathena. Their only qualification is mental concoction. That's all. Just see, how this... In America, such a wretched man. Willfully. Willfully. Devotee (1): They've become useless. *Prabhupāda: This is due to excessive meat*-eating, intoxication, sex. This is the result. Devotee (1): They've wasted their brains. Hari-śauri: Also these bums that hang around the cities, they're all alcoholics. Prabhupāda: That is the reason. Devotee (3): That's one reason crime is so high is because of intoxication. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): Always increasing crime. Rāmeśvara: In America, millions of people have guns in their houses. Very common. They are all preparing for fighting. *Hari-śauri: You said once in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that the one principle that gives the most trouble is the fearing in the material world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: [break] (in car) So whenever the Congress tries to pass a law to control the purchasing of guns, it is always defeated. They want the people to be able to have guns. They make a lot of money, also, selling guns. Prabhupāda: The best thing is they should be educated to become gentlemen. Keep guns, but they may not improperly use them. Rāmeśvara: When New York City had to start borrowing money from the banks, the banks became very powerful. They were able to control the city government and get many favors. Prabhupāda: What is that favor? Rāmeśvara: They get special contracts, concession rates, and they are able to get their men appointed to important government positions. Also, in the national government, the government of the United States has to always borrow money from banks. There is something called National Debt. Hundreds of billions of dollars they owe the banks, the United States government, to support all their different programs. Prabhupāda: National Debt. Rāmeśvara: National Debt. So then the banks are able to use their power to get favors. "Oh, you want to borrow money? Then you must give me some favor." It's common knowledge. Hari-śauri: Everyone's trying to blackmail everyone else. Rāmeśvara: Some people say that there is a worldwide conspiracy of bankers, that they can control any government. They can cause a depression. They say that the bankers caused the depression in the 1920s, 1930s, just to increase their power. Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you become dependent on me, I pay money, you can create some trouble for me. That is conspiracy(?). (pause) What is this, memory? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Looks like World War I. Devotee (1): Yes, World War I. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Veterans. What does it say? Hari-śauri: One hundred and seventh United States Infantry. Rāmeśvara: [break] ...came here, Bhāradvāja and myself went to Salt Lake City to visit the church of the Mormons. The Mormon religion is a branch of Christianity, and they own the whole city of Salt Lake City. It's the capital of Utaḥ, one of the United States states. So they control the whole city, and it is planned with the temple in the center of the city. Like our Māyāpura plan. And all around the streets are named after the temple. It is well planned. And in the temple square they have a visitor center, and it costs hundreds of millions of dollars, with dioramas and movies. They even have a little planetarium. It's all for recruiting people to join their religion. So we went there to study how they did it. Actually, it's all based on a crazy philosophy. They say that after Jesus Christ was crucified in Israel, he rose, and then the next stop he came to America. Prabhupāda: Next...? Rāmeśvara: Next he came to America. Because Jesus, they say, is the savior of the whole world, so why just Israel? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So when did he come to America? Rāmeśvara: Immediately afterwards. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did he do here? Rāmeśvara: He gave another Bible teaching. Again he converted people to follow, to accept him as God. So this whole religion is based on his teachings when he came to America. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Except for them, who accepts such a thing? No one accepts that except the Mormons. Rāmeśvara: They say that God orders every man to get married. Hari-śauri: They are very strong on the principle of family life. Prabhupāda: That is a good idea. Devotee (1): They also have a policy that anyone who is born in their family has to go on a missionary work for two years, then he's fulfilled his obligation. So the young men go overseas for two years. Prabhupāda: That is also good. Devotee (1): Yes. Hari-śauri: Like those two young men that you met in Melbourne? Those American boys? They were Mormons. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are they vegetarian? Rāmeśvara: No, they abstain from... In Salt Lake City you are not allowed to smoke cigarettes. They have passed a law, "No cigarettes." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the whole city? Rāmeśvara: In the whole city. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow, that's a big city. It's one of the capitals of the States. *Rāmeśvara: But they have meat*-eating. Originally they are not supposed to, but they are already deviating. Devotee (1): Do they still have many wives? Rāmeśvara: No, that's against the law. Originally they believed in polygamy... Prabhupāda: But now they are changing. Rāmeśvara: Yes, now they are changing. *Prabhupāda: That means no fixed*-up idea. Devotee (1): No sound philosophy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we also believe, but do we allow? We also believe in polygamy, but we don't allow it in our society. Hari-śauri: Not for the time being, anyway. Prabhupāda: We don't encourage sex life on the whole. Rāmeśvara: They say that when you are married in their church, it means that when you then quit your body and you go to the spiritual world... Prabhupāda: No, we condone marriage. Marriage is Vedic principle. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Seventy*-second Street, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were going to show us that building. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just on the corner of Amsterdam and Seventy*-second. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means next street. Rāmeśvara: They say when you go to the spiritual kingdom, you keep your same wife and your same children. That is their idea of marriage. Prabhupāda: This is Amsterdam? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Columbus Avenue. Next is Amsterdam. Devotee (1): You walked here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Rāmeśvara: Right here is number one hundred. Prabhupāda: Here is. Devotee (1): There is one hundred. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the building, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): It says "Watergate." Watergate Hotel. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which floor did you live on? Prabhupāda: And I was trying to purchase one house here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which floor did you live on, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I think third floor. And there was an electrician, he was my friend, one Jewish gentleman. Devotee (1): You would walk on this street? Prabhupāda: Yes. There is one building with temperature, a gauge? Here it is. This is Broadway. I was taking bath here in a station. Sometimes I was taking the station(?)... I think this building is new. I was going to Dr. Mishra's apartment for cooking. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What street did he live on? *Prabhupāda: He... Seventy*-eighth. The Riverside corner. Yes, I was purchasing my goods from this store. Devotee (1): Westend Superette. *Prabhupāda: They were charging, a little chili powder, twenty*-five cents. In India it may be one anna. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were purchasing here. Prabhupāda: Yes, because I was going to cook my food there, so whatever I needed, I used to... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How come you didn't cook your food where you were living? Prabhupāda: Huh? There was no place. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was it like there? Prabhupāda: It was an office room. That building is meant for office, not for residences. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You rented a room there? *Prabhupāda: Yes, I was paying seventy*-two dollars a month. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And where did you sleep? Was there a bed? Prabhupāda: No, there was bed. There is toilet and water, but no bath and no cooking. Devotee (1): Did you have to go there to bathe also? Prabhupāda: Yes, I was taking bathing there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where did you... Did you sleep on the floor? Prabhupāda: Yes, I had little platform. So on that platform... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are the most bold person in the whole world, Prabhupāda. Devotee (1): We will never be able to do what you have done. Prabhupāda: Alone I was doing that. And then gradually one or two boys began to come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did any of them come up here who are still with you now? Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only when you went downtown did the permanent men come. No one was visiting you up here? Hayagrīva? Prabhupāda: No, they came there, Second Avenue. Hari-śauri: Mukunda? Prabhupāda: All of them. Rūpānuga: That's amazing. How long were you there, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Here? About six months. Then when my things were stolen, then one boy was coming, his name was Paul Murray, he invited me that "You come to my loft." He took me to Bowery Street. Devotee (1): I met that boy in Amherst. He has a boutique; he sells clothing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You must have felt very bad when your things were stolen. Prabhupāda: Yes, I felt little disappointed. But some friends, they offered me, "Never mind, you take my typewriter," somebody, "You take my tape recorder." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Things were very easy here. Hari-śauri: Not easy. Rādhāvallabha: Kṛṣṇa always provides facilities. Prabhupāda: So there was no difficulty. I got from other friends. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So when you moved down to the loft... Prabhupāda: That boy, I gave him, Haridāsa, who was in San Francisco? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So this Paul Murray... Haridāsa left New York, he went to San Francisco. His name was something else. What is this? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a steel factory. This is near the Ratha*-yātrā carts. Prabhupāda: Oh. Steel factory, but very good house? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Hari-śauri: Paul Murray, he was the boy that went crazy? Prabhupāda: Yes, he was LSD man. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: LSD man. He tried to attack you. Prabhupāda: Not attack, but he showed some ferocious mood. I thought... Devotee (1): Very dangerous. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you thought to leave right away. Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You took all your things and went away. Prabhupāda: Yes, I kept with Mukunda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And that boy was keeping meat in his refrigerator? Prabhupāda: No, that is another boy, Yeargen. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: John Yeargens? Prabhupāda: He's black. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were staying with him? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. Your Godbrothers could never believe this. (laughter) Devotee (1): So at that time you did not think that anyone would accept your philosophy. Prabhupāda: That I was certain. At the beginning I was... Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda was certain that they would accept. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think, Prabhupāda, that your exploits here are no less great than Lord Caitanya going into the Jhārikhaṇḍa forest and making the animals dance. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are the modern*-day representative of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Prabhupāda: This is building construction? Devotee (1): Appears so. Telephone company. Prabhupāda: The Bell? Devotee (1): New York Telephone Company. Prabhupāda: In Pittsburgh... I was living in Butler, and a girl took me to Pittsburgh. So I saw at that time that she had to pay two dollars for parking. Hari-śauri: This is why we get so much noise. Every time there's a call, when they come from here, and we're only just on the next block. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But it's good for us also. If there's any trouble in the temple, they come right away, and they are friendly. Prabhupāda: Give them prasādam? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Jayānanda brings them. Prabhupāda: Prasādam will conquer everyone. Rāmeśvara: That is how we get all our men to join. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: By the prasādam. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I joined because I had nowhere to eat. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At first I had nowhere to eat, so the devotees in San Francisco, they gave me, then I heard you lecture and I became convinced. These banners are very common. You can see this one flying in the air. Most shops and things keep banners nowadays, but they aren't as nice as ours. Prabhupāda: What is this street? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eighth Avenue. There's a restaurant called Asia Restaurant. Prabhupāda: Asia? It's behind you. It's hard for you to see. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And there's another one, an Indian restaurant two blocks up, but they all serve meat. Devotee (1): And liquor. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Meat samosās, like that. Devotee (1): Like the Muslims. (end) *Evening Darçana-*-July 13, 1976, New York Guest (1): ...what thought there is in bringing the temple and the farm closer together as one entity rather than two? Prabhupāda: Wherever we have got farm, we construct a temple also. Explain. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The... Just like we have so many farming communities. Prabhupāda has mentioned that wherever our farm is... Actually we're not farmers. Guest (1): No? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is trying to create a class of intelligent men, brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa is the head... Prabhupāda: First class. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...of the human society. But actually it's one body, one entity already, simply that with different activities that we have to perform. The example is given, mukhe bāhūru pāda*-ja: That there is the head; there's the arms; there's the belly, the abdomen; *and then there is the legs. And all of them are part of the same body. So you might say that the legs are removed from the head, or that the head is removed from the stomach, but actually it's all one body and it works together. But the head gives direction to the whole body, how to act properly, so that the benefit is there to be derived. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is creating a class of brāhmaṇas, or heads of human society, who can give direction to the whole sphere of human activities so that they can become successful in human life. So in reality, we're not trying to create farmers, we're trying to create brāhmaṇas. But our farming communities are, so to speak, an example, an ideal example how human society can live: some people in the capacity of preachers, some people in the capacity of farmers, how so many activities can go on*-various occupations-but all of them can be God-centered. So in reality, these people, they're farmers, they're out there on their tractor, they can jump off their tractor at any moment and preach the highest philosophy, because actually they're brāhmaṇas. They (are the) intelligent class of men. So it's one entity. The basic principle is that modern society is neglecting to train up-especially young men, you can see that in spite of so many universities throughout the world-these young men are being trained up how to become women-hunters and debauches. Going to the bars, going to the gambling houses, and they are supposed to be educated people. So real education is how to train up one to have ideal character, to become a brāhmaṇa. Guest (1): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Our men's productive. There must be food production, otherwise how the society will live. That is also a requirement. Good direction required, good government required, good production required, and good worker required. You can explain that there is no understanding of spiritual life. That they are missing the opportunity of human life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual culture, and basically speaking the human society begins from dharma, or accepting the principle of God. Dharma begins with this acceptance of the principle of God, that human beings, their activities, have to be regulated. Just like in human society there is marriage. This is according to scripture. Every scripture regulates there must be marriage. This is dharma. It regulates certain activities that should be done, certain activities that should not be done. And basically speaking this is the beginning of human civilization; *otherwise, they're simply living in a civilization of gross sense gratification which is in reality no different or no better than the society of animals. So from dharma, human society begins and generally... You can see practically that dharma generally focuses... People are taking that dharma is for the basis of economic development. This is proven practically because in pioneer times in America for example, people they were simple going to churches and synagogues, and temples and all kinds of things, what have you. And economic development was going on very nicely, in fact, economic development could not have gone on unless there was this principle of religion. People were very, practically speaking... In a pioneer situation people are very barbaric, struggle for existence-you know, you're in the country, there is no road, there's no cities-everyone is very, simply interested to maintain themselves. But by churches and things of this nature, people saw the need for a civilized give-and-take way of living-economic development. Then gradually, the ideas developed further and further, but in modern days we can see that people are having economic developments and there's no need for God, they think at least. In other words, people are no longer attending churches, synagogues, things of this nature, because they are making sufficient money without the need of religion. Therefore, the basic principle is being missed that human life is not simply meant for economic development. Human life*-we analyze, we can say that... Prabhupāda: Human life is meant for making a solution of all material problems. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That they do not know. That point is missing that there is another life which is eternal, blissful, life of knowledge. But they have no idea that we can eternally live without birth, death, old age, and disease. There is no information, neither education, but there is a life very... If you get eternal life, then the tribulations of material life no longer are there: birth, death, old age, and disease. But they have no idea or information because there is no intelligent man to understand that there is another life which is eternal, and life of bliss and knowledge. There is no information. That is the defect of the modern civilization, they are living like animals. No intelligence. So actually human life is meant for purifying our existential condition so that we may not be subjected to birth, death, old age, and disease. That they are missing. They do not know, neither there is any education, nor university. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to educate people on that line. It is not a sentimental religious system, it is an educational system. How one can transfer himself to eternal blissful life. Satsvarūpa is there? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Let him come in. When you have come? Satsvarūpa: A few hours ago. Prabhupāda: So, everything's all right? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Explain to them about eternal life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eternal life? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eternal life is described by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad*-gītā: ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇaḥ. Eternal means without a beginning and without an end. So this body, this human form of life, or tree form of life, or animal form of life, aquatic form of life, it has a beginning and it has an end. But the person, the soul, has no beginning or end. This is described by Kṛṣṇa that: dehino 'smin yathā dehe, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. We've experienced in our practical lifetime that we were very tiny, youth, we had a small body, child's body: kaumāraṁ yauvanam. Then youthful body, then we're having old man, old woman's body, like this. So practically speaking, this body is constantly changing. Although Kṛṣṇa gives this example because He is trying to explain a very fine point of understanding, namely transmigration of the soul: that in reality the body that we have is changing at every moment, at every instant. But we can not see that because our consciousness is not so sharp to pick up when there's change of body. But Kṛṣṇa explains, "You can see that you had a small body, now you have a youthful body, now you have an old man's body." Actually there is a continuum of change at every moment. So this is the changing material body, and the mind likewise is changing, but the soul, the living entity, is not changing. And this is experienced practically by the fact that in spite of so many changes of body that we had we've still the same person. Just like we can remember when we were young children playing in the park or at the streets, and then older, older, older; going to school; older, family life; older, now retired; now like this (indistinct). So like this the body is changing in so many ways but still I'm the same person. This can be practically experienced. Everyone has this understanding: different bodies but you're still the same person. So this spiritual identity should be the real concern, athāto brahma jijñāsā. This should be the real concern of the human society, not this temporary changing body. The whole human society is presently geared how to satisfy the demands of this temporary body. So we can see practically that this is fruitless. Ultimately we have to give up this body; *ultimately we have to give up our connection with society, with family, with everything. So everything should have its proper place naturally, but the real focus of human life should be on the soul. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not only the soul, but the relationship of the soul with God. So practically speaking, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual movement. We're trying to come to the platform, as Prabhupāda has been speaking in class in the mornings about sat*-dharma: eternal religion or eternal activity of the soul. Sat means eternal. Here in this material world everything is temporary. By accident you may be born in America or in India or in Japan or in a human form or in a cat form, but it's temporary. But the soul is eternal and there is also a place: paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. Another place beyond this material world which is called the spiritual world. And that place is sanātana, that place is eternal, and Kṛṣṇa also is eternal. So, sat, sat-dharma or eternal occupation of the soul, eternal religion is that the living entity should be in this place, this eternal place where there's no change of body. That you have to take a body and then give it up, and then according to your work, take another body and then give it up, revolve in the cycle of birth and death unnecessarily. Go to the sanātana atmosphere, and there the sanātana Lord is there, and there the soul is in its natural environment, and the exchange of love that takes place in this spiritual world, this is Sat-dharma. So this temporary world of birth and death, this is asat. Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. It's asat: it's a temporary place. We're taking it to be real just like in a dream we take that the dream is all in all. But by chanting this mantra, we will awaken from this maddening materialistic way of life which is simply binding us up more and more to this false conception of attachment for this body. Practically we know that we have to give up this body, but still because everyone in the material world... Prabhupāda explained this morning, it's just like a mad-man. People are attached... just like if you are attached to your clothes and you're thinking that if my clothes are finished, I am finished. So this is a mad proposition. You can always get another set of clothes. Similarly we are different from this body. So to be overly attached to this body or even attached at all is a form of madness. That's a fact. We analyze this soberly. Guest (1): You mentioned an exchange of love in the spiritual world. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Guest (1): Could you explain that more? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is exchanging love in this world, we see that practically, that husband and wife are exchanging love, children and parents are exchanging love, friend and friend are exchanging love. There are so many different relationships in which we exchange love. Even animals like a dog; *a cat/dog is exchanging love. It's been analyzed, experiments have been done that even a plant is more productive when he knows that the person who is taking care of the plant is a friend. They speak about the green thumb. So even plants respond. They are sensitive. In a sense they are also exchanging love in a simple way. So this loving propensity is natural. The difficulty is that due to ignorance, we're exchanging love on the bodily platform, which is asat, temporary. And therefore everyone is frustrated. Everyone is frustrated. It's a false platform of love. So the real platform of love is when we come to the soul platform. Kṛṣṇa speaks about this in the Bhagavad*-gītā: *That when you come to the soul platform, it's also called brahma*-bhūta stage or platform of the soul, then mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām: that bhakti, bhakti means transcendental love and service to God. Prabhupāda: Bhakti means yes, exchange of love between God and the individual soul. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This becomes awaking of the spiritual platform. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is gradually to purify one, because that natural loving propensity is there. Our contention, and practically we are experiencing it, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is natural way of life. It's not artificial imposition. Rather in this present materialistic way of life, so many artificial standards and impositions have been put upon us. We can see that because culture is always changing. One year this is right to do, the next year that's right. Everything is simply mental concoction. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is eternal, it's never changed. We have history from the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. For millions and millions of years people have been engaged in the very same process that we're following: of chanting the holy names, worshiping the Deity in the temple, taking prasādam, association with saintly persons. The very same process, it hasn't changed. And the very same sentiment of love of God is being awakened naturally. So our contention is that the love is simply misdirected. It simply has to be redirected towards Kṛṣṇa, and the spiritual master, he does this. He takes our energy, our love, our intelligence, our everything and directs it towards Kṛṣṇa. And as a result, you become purified. A very natural process. Just like we have a propensity to love so rather than waste our love on the temporary forms of the material world, because they're all perishable. Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api [SB 2.1.4]. First of all we love the body, deha. And apatya, we love the family members, the sons, kalatra, we love our wife, ādiṣu we like our community, nation, so many things. But all of these things, they're temporary. They won't last, they can't endure. So all of our love practically is being wasted. It's stolen. *Prabhupāda: There is an example. In a water tank you throw one stone. It becomes a circle. And the circle expands, expands, expands unless the circle comes to the shore. Similarly our loving affair begins from personal self to family, from family to society, community, nation, international. But still, it is imperfect unless the circle reaches to the lotus feet of God. Then it is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. Here, any loving affairs, that is more or less lusty. A man or woman love each other with some desire, not without desire. That desire is sense gratification. But actually that is lust not love. Pure love can be exchanged in relationship with God. Here there are temporary... A boy, a girl or a man, a woman in relationship of love but it breaks as soon as the lusty desire is not fulfilled. So here there is no question of love. It is all lusty desire. Real love can be achieved when it is exchanged with Kṛṣṇa or God. Premā pum*-artho mahān, that is the recommendation given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is the highest (indistinct) when we come on the loving platform with God, then we are satisfied. Big, big political leaders in our country like Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country so much. But the result was that he was killed by his own men, by his country men. But this is not possible when the love is exchanged between God. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31], a little love for God can save you from the greatest danger of life. That is real love. So if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you can love with everyone. Just like we are spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is out of love for Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we would have sat down at home and love Kṛṣṇa. Why you are trying to spread this love exchange to others? Because I know or we know that here in this material world, the so-called love exchange is frustrating, and people are being frustrated. So let him love Kṛṣṇa, then we'll be successful. This is our mission. Everyone has got loving propensity. So this child has now love for his mother, for the mother has got... But as soon as the child will grow, the love is finished, he will love somebody else. When he becomes young man, his love is transferred to somebody else. So here the so-called love is not permanent, but when you love Kṛṣṇa it is permanent exchange of loving humor or mellow. So that is required. Sai this called sai-eva. Sai(?) means permanent it will never end. You'll relish loving mellows eternal. Explain this verse. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The eighth verse of Caitanya Mahāprabhu Śikṣāṣṭaka. Prabhupāda: Śikṣāṣṭaka. Satsvarūpa: I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: This is Lord Caitanya. He wrote only eight verses about all this literature. Then there is files and volumes and volumes about love of God. So in this Śikṣāṣṭakam, eight verses, the last verse is translated as, He prays: "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He will always remain as such, even if He handles me roughly in His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, and He will remain my worshipable Lord unconditionally." So this is just the opposite, this is pure love, just the opposite of the, what Śrīla Prabhupāda is explaining that in this material world love is based on some desire that actually becomes a kind of business that "I love you if you will respond in this way." What to speak of someone saying that "I love you, even if you act as a debauch. You don't have to be faithful, that's... You can do as you like in your own way, but my declaration is that I simply want to serve You and You'll always be my worshipable object." So love should be like that, otherwise it is simply business that I will give you the product if you give me the money. But the lover is the living being... *Prabhupāda: You shall not expect anything in return. That is real love. Just like this mother is loving child, expecting anything*-no, not expecting any return. But she still she gives service. So that is as a little sample of pure love. But here also some... When the child is grown up, if the child is not obedient, the mother practically withdraws love. But in the spiritual world, unconditionally love is there. As it is explained, āśliṣya vā pāda-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām. Marma-hatām: [Cc. Antya 20.47] whatever you do, I don't mind that but still I love you. That is pure love. Guest (1): As a mother loves the child in pure love, does that help her to also find the pure love in the spiritual world? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just like mother Yaśodā is loving Kṛṣṇa. Nanda Mahārāja is loving Kṛṣṇa. That is pure love. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: This, this loving affair with the mother and the son is a perverted reflection of that pure love. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think he's asking a question also that sometimes comes up, that if one loves in this material love, for example one loves a child, or loves humanity, does this help to develop love of God? Prabhupāda: No. But if you love God. It helps to love the human beings. Guest (1): I see, it's the other way! Prabhupāda: Just like if you supply food to the stomach, it helps the eye sight, but if you supply food to the eyes then you become blind. (everybody laughs) Guest (1): Thank you. Devotee: Is Veda important for, like we have our children here. As we come to this movement we're like children, it's important how we are molded, we are molded into the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as for example a child, it's important how the mother molds her activities, the child's activities; mold the child's life so that nice child grows up, act towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (indistinct) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's asking a question, Śrīla Prabhupāda: isn't it important to mold the activities of ourselves and also the children in coming to this movement; to mold them that so that we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is (why) our gurukula is there. How these children are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, (indistinct), how they are learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are doing the same thing, offering obeisances to the Deities, taking prasādam, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. In the same way as his father is doing. So automatically he's being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Good association, that is required. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvidaḥ. We are keeping this house for association of devotees so that automatically they become Kṛṣṇa conscious by association. The most unfortunate position is that there is no education about future life, or the perfection of life. The education is the animal education: the animal (is) eating, we are eating. If we are eating on table, or nice place, nice chair, then we think we are advanced. But the business is the eating. Similarly sleeping. The dog is sleeping on the street, we are sleeping in good apartment, skyscraper building. They are thinking this is advancement of civilization. But actually the business is sleeping. Similarly sex life. The dog is having sex life on the street, we are having in a very nice apartment. The business is sex. In this way our modern activities are animal activities but in a polished way. But that does not make any difference between the animal propensity and so-called civilized life. Civilized life is there when we understand what is God, our relationship with God. That is civilized life, but that is lacking. There is no such education. The education is only the same animal life in a polished way, that's all. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, could it be said that in a society where stress is placed on developing this understanding of God, people would naturally become disinclined for these so*-called modern activities of sense gratification? *Prabhupāda: That is the best qualification. If he becomes disinterested with these so*-called modern civilized activities, that is the perfection of life. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra caiṣa [SB 11.2.42]. Bhakti means the more you become God conscious, you become disinterested with these material activities. And that is needed, because material activities means you are wasting our time. What is the value of animal life? It is risky. If we become like animal, then we'll become animal next birth. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. At the time of death, the mind's position will give me another body. That is nature's law. That you do not know. There is no education how the body is being transferred, how the soul is transferred to different bodies. And there are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and at the time of death, according to our mentality, we have to accept by nature's law a type of body which may not be human body. That we do not know. There is no education. The people are kept in darkness about the laws of nature. That is a very risky civilization. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, some might say... *Prabhupāda: Just like a... Without any knowledge if we infect some disease, it will manifest in due course of time, and you have to suffer. Similarly without any knowledge we are infecting the modes of material nature and according to that modes of material nature, you have to accept a type of body which may not be very comfortable. Of course there is no comfort when there is death. We don't want death, but there is compulsory death. There is no comfort at all. But still the short duration of life, if we have little comfort... But again if we have this comfortable life, then what is the benefit of this comfort? That material laws of nature, we do not know, neither any education about (this). This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving that education. Therefore it is not a sentimental so*-called religious movement, it is a scientific movement of real education. To solve the problems of life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think human society has been educated to even understand the problem what to speak of a cure. Prabhupāda: Problem there is, but he's a fool. Who wants to die? Why this fire brigade is running here and there? To save life. He doesn't want to die. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They will say though that everyone has to die. *Prabhupāda: They will say that is... Whatever they... Foolishly whatever they may say, then let them say. Actually he doesn't like to die. Otherwise let there be fire, why you called fire brigade? Let me die peacefully in the fire. (laughter) Nonsense he's suffering, but still he says there is no suffering. That is nonsense. That is ignorance. He's suffering every moment, but he does not know why he's suffering. That is ignorance. Just like an animal, you are taking into the slaughterhouse. He's suffering, he's screaming, but he does not know why you have taken to slaughterhouse (indistinct). And that is animal life. And when there will be question of why I am suffering? I did not want this fire, why there is fire? That is perfection (indistinct). Is there any solution? Then there is human life. And if he remains like animal, and simply try to make some remedial measures... He's suffering undoubtedly, but because he does not take it seriously, therefore he's animal. Animal does not take seriously why he's suffering. That is the distinction between human life and animal life. Suffering is there, but the animal does not take it seriously. But human life must take it seriously otherwise he's an animal. There are so many sufferings. This is adhibhau... adhidaivika. Adhidaivika: by-you say accident*-by nature, by superior power. Some miserable condition is enforced upon us. Suppose if there is an earthquake, that is not in your hand, but it may cause some havoc. This is adhidaivika. Similar, adhibhautika: Suffering caused by other living entities. And adhyātmika, suffering caused by this body and mind. So suffering is always there, but we are suffering, we have been accustomed to suffer. But when the question is that why I am suffering, whether there is any remedy? That is human life. Otherwise, the animal life. That is the distinction between animal and human life. If there is fire, and there are animals only, dogs and cats, they cannot call fire brigade. They'll die, because they do not know how to take measures. But human being immediately calls fire brigade just to try to save himself. But the suffering is there, either he's animal or human being. But the distinction is the human being tries to counteract it, the animal cannot. If you simply become subject to this suffering without any remedial measure, then you are animal. And you are suffering and you try for the remedial measure, that is human life. This is plain thing. You cannot say there is no suffering. Suffering is there both for the animal and for the man. The man tries for the remedial measure, the animal cannot. Hm, what is that? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of the modern*-day cults in America, different philosophies, they say that all of the suffering is experienced within the mind. So they try by meditation to ignore the suffering. Prabhupāda: Or... That's all right. When there is fire you meditate, why do you call fire brigade? If you are so great meditator, then you go on meditating, why you call for fire brigade? Nonsense, all rascals. (laughter) Simply rascals. Mūḍha. They have been described as mūḍha. Rascals, that's all. Devotee: Sometimes they say it's just a dream and they say if you are bothering me, and you are just my dream; I don't have to worry about it, I'll have another dream and you'll go away. *Prabhupāda: No but dream is... It may be, but when there is fire, you call it dream, but why do you call fire brigade? When you are diseased why you go to physician? Dream it. (laughter) The major problem is birth, death, and old age, and disease. You do not want that. You must seek the measures. That is human life. Whether birth, death, old age, disease can be stopped? If there is any such life that there is no more birth, death, that is human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is the Vedānta philosophy: "Now the human life is meant for enquiring about these things." If you don't enquire, then you remain animal. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save the human society from this animal life. To bring him to the real human life. Animal life means there is suffering*-go on suffering. Human life means there is suffering-how to get, how to counteract. That is human life. Suffering-so long you have got this body, there must be suffering. *The karmīs, Ṛṣabhadeva is warning that nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma: [SB 5.5.4] these rascals being mad after sense gratification, they are doing everything and anything irresponsibly. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ. Pramattaḥ means mad. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Things which you should not have done, but he's doing it. Why? Yad indriya*-prītaya: Simply for sense gratification. Therefore, he advises, na sādhu ayam: this is not good. So why it is not good? Yata: he has already got a body, material body for which he's suffering, and he's again creating the circumstance by which he'll again get a material body and will suffer. Therefore, one should act very responsibly. Not like madmen. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Then Ṛṣabhadeva instructs, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. This body, although I have got this body, and the dog has got the body, or the hog has got the body, but these bodies are not meant for being spoiled like the dogs and hogs. The hog is also whole day working to find out where is stool. So if you also work whole day and night for our sense gratification, then where is the difference between the hog's life and my life. The human life, human brain should be sober to understand what is the problem of life, why I'm subjected to so many tribulations, how to remedy, how to find out the remedy and that requires tapasya. Tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1]. In order to create that brain, it requires a little tapasya. Therefore we are recommending no illicit sex, no meat eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Because we are already mad by material existence, and again we are... If you are forced to become more and more mad by intoxication, by meat eating, by this... Then where is your life? Your life is finished. Because to understand these problems of life requires a little brain. So to create that brain, this little tapasya is required. He's already puzzled, and if you make him more and more puzzled by supplying him intoxication and this gross eating of meat, then he remains in the grossest platform of ignorance. That is not human activity. The brain must be little clear to understand what is the value of life, why I am suffering, if is there any remedial measure, how can I take it. That is brain. And if the brain is used only to find out where is sense gratification, where is sex, where is food, where is shelter, where is money? Then, that is, that business is being done by the hogs and dogs. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save people from this dogs' and hogs' life and to come to the real platform of understanding the value of life. They do not know it. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know what is the aim of life. Simply by false hopes they are trying to adjust things with material effects. That will never do that. Durāśayā. Durāśayā means it is useless hope. It cannot be. Just like we practically see that the, here in New York City, American people are very rich and intelligent, but they cannot stop this fire which is unwanted. They cannot stop it. That is not possible. Because they are living very high, 300 feet high or more than that, you are not safe still. You are still in the same danger. Because you are living in big, big skyscraper building, it does not mean that you will not die. Death is there also, birth, death, old age, disease, the real problems of life. It does not mean that because we have advanced in so-called material civilization, you have avoided birth, death. Even big, big scientists who gave us so many big, big inventions, but still they died. They could not invent something which will protect them from death, that at the time of death, give me this pill so that I will not die and I'll go on giving you more scientific advance. That is not possible. What is your question? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some people think that by meditating they can somehow, another ignore... Prabhupāda: Meditating means this subject matter: that I don't want death, why death is forced upon me? That is real meditation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then the problems of life are more than simply those which we perceive? Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, what is the meditation? Think about something seriously, that is meditation. But if you have no important serious thinking, simply some imagination, how it will help you? Devotee (1): Excuse me, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This evening they are having one convention here, the Democratic National Convention. One of the two big political parties in the city, at one place called Madison Square Garden. And all the television and newspaper people in the whole country will be there. They're beginning at 8 o'clock this evening. So we want to send all the devotees in the temple on saṅkīrtana party there, because we feel that not only will the atmosphere become purified but also all the television cameras and all the newspaper people will interview our devotees and take their pictures, and they will be on television all over the country, simply because... Prabhupāda: That is good cause. Devotee (1): So we are requesting if all the devotees can possibly go? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): In that way they can all attend, if we have a big force... Prabhupāda: At least, let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Yes. Devotee (1): I have a feeling it could be just like with the Chand Kazi. When he was... Lord Caitanya made a civil disobedience mood, perhaps if we chant loudly enough... Prabhupāda: No, by hearing this transcendental vibration they will benefited. Devotee (2): The actual presidential candidates will be there. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): Presidential candidates, the candidates for the president of the United States, they'll be there. Satsvarūpa: They'll all be there tonight. Prabhupāda: All right, go ahead chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (3): Thank you Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Devotees pay obeisances) Prabhupāda: Give them prasādam. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Both of you were in India? Satsvarūpa: No, only Mahābuddhi and Vṛndāvana, who is not here right now. Prabhupāda: Oh. So? Satsvarūpa: So they were very successful. Now we're thinking we'd like to take this party all over the world if we could. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Do. Satsvarūpa: Not... So far we've had our scope, the United States, we wanted to make it the whole world. Prabhupāda: Why not? Books are being appreciated even by rascal. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, so the scope is everywhere. What is your experience? Devotee (4): India Prabhupāda, it was very, very large and I wrote him some letters, but the experience is even greater... Prabhupāda: Oh! Mr. ... Come on. (guests come in) So Mrs. Kallman is going to become a sannyāsī, (indistinct). Gradually you have to become. Mrs. Kallman: Must. Prabhupāda: So if you feel uncomfortable you can sit on this. Mr. Kallman: No, no. The cushion... Prabhupāda: You are already accustomed Mr. Kallman: I'm always accustomed. Prabhupāda: So, how are you? Mr. Kallman: Very good, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You are now in New York? Mr. Kallman: I live here. Prabhupāda: Oh. No, you live I know. Sometimes you go out. Mr. Kallman: Much traveling, but we've come for the parade. Prabhupāda: Hm. Mr. Kallman: Down Fifth Avenue. Prabhupāda: So often you come to the temple? Mr. Kallman: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Hm. So? [break] Devotee (5): Two hundreds places, universities, schools, government institutions, big ministers, temple managements for all,... Prabhupāda: They have given all orders? *Devotee (5): Yes, most of them gave orders to our... Even unlike... Some like Unites States some place, they would order all seventeen Caitanya*-caritāmṛtas, and all the volumes of Bhāgavatam out and place an order for the rest to come, plus other books. And we lowered the price to about 45 rupees which was, which was right where they can afford to pay for the volumes (indistinct) take them. Prabhupāda: What is the usual price? Devotee (5): $7.95 which would be like too many, eighty rupees or something like that. It would be very expensive for India for one volume. Prabhupāda: So you have reduced the price? *Devotee (5): To forty*-five rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa made it very, very reasonable for them that they can partake. Prabhupāda: That's all right. They are taking the book. That is wanted. We don't want much profit. Devotee (5): Many, many reviewers also from those big Sanskrits, the largest in the world (indistinct) professors here they also read the reviews and very much appreciate the books. All of the different parts we visited, from north to south, east to west. Prabhupāda: They're welcome. That's fine. So make world party. Satsvarūpa: Yes, we're very excited to do that. We're going to present it to the GBC. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Satsvarūpa: What our practical plan is. Take this same party everywhere, Europe and then India and then other places too. Prabhupāda: We are getting good response for our books all over the world. Devotee (6): Constantly growing. Any new volumes coming out? Devotee (1): We'll be coming (indistinct) when we get (indistinct) ...to let you translate as much because now we're getting lots of tapes recorders. (indistinct) ...70, 90, 100 books for one class, so they...that's when the students are waiting for more books. They're constantly saying more and more. Prabhupāda: So, you'll get it, you'll get it. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, give prasādam to Mr. Kallman. Mr. Kallman: Prabhupāda, could you please accept this small donation. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Give this garland. Devotee: We are still building the front, left over from Gaurahari's work. So we're constantly putting more money into the front(?), for your use, whatever. Prabhupāda: Yes, my funds are being utilized in printing books, and expanding centers. My book trust is divided into two. Fifty percent for the printing the books and fifty percent for expanding centers. Mr. Kallman: Any way I can help Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Kallman: You're going to have a big parade. My favorite. Prabhupāda: You have got that store? Mr. Kallman: Well, we're doing well wholesaling now, Prabhupāda. We sell to stores, department stores across the United States. We had to give up the store because we couldn't have, you know, timewise. Prabhupāda: Hm. You are now making wholesaling. Mr. Kallman: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes! Mr. Kallman: More volume. Prabhupāda: Wholesale business is better than retail business. My father was a wholesale, cloth seller, cloth merchant. So, he liked wholesale business, not retail. Mr. Kallman: The wholesale is much better. It's more financial... Prabhupāda: A little profit, but aggregate is better. Mr. Kallman: The volume is more. Prabhupāda: Yes, volume is more. In those days, he was making cloth business, he was making profit one anna or two paise per piece. Mr. Kallman: Very small profit. Prabhupāda: Yes. The Marwari business man, they want to sell, for suppose, one lakh of worth goods, if there is customer to pay him immediately one lakh ten rupees, he'll sell, immediately sell. He thinks "I've got that ten rupees," that's all. Again person. That is their way of doing it. They are not calculating that I have invested one lakh of rupees, I must get at least ten percent profit. No. Not at loss. A little profit. "Never mind, give me cash." That is Marwari business. And he, when he goes to purchase from his supplier, he sees that this man is purchasing at the time one lakh, two lakh. So he gives him all credit. Mr. Kallman: Works on the credit. Prabhupāda: So later on, he establishes his credit (and) without any payment, he gets supplies. And they keep their credit. On the day of payment, they must pay. Mr. Kallman: Yes, exactly. Prabhupāda: Therefore the Marwaris, they become very big businessmen. Mr. Kallman: Very powerful. Prabhupāda: Yes. This Birlas, they have become so big, they have so much credit in the market that by telephone they will ask any gold merchant, that you purchase one thousand tolās of gold for me. He'll immediately purchase, because he has a credit. Mr. Kallman: Sure, many years. Prabhupāda: And next moment he phones another gold merchant, "What is the price," he says. Say one anna less... I'll sell one hundred tolās. So he'll purchase without any investment and sells immediately and makes one hundred tolās, one anna profit, some (indistinct). Mr. Kallman: Sure. Prabhupāda: By telephone. Mr. Kallman: Very quick. Prabhupāda: In this way, they become very, very big. They know how to use this art, these Marwaris. If you are going in India, you'll see Marwaris are very quickly, they will come. They know how to do business. Mr. Kallman: Volume. Prabhupāda: Volume. Volume of the... Of course, volume of business can be done which is easily seller. Mr. Kallman: A very good market, the United States for clothing. Prabhupāda: Clothing. Mr. Kallman: Yes, constantly growing. Prabhupāda: You are purchasing from Ahmedabad? Mr. Kallman: We purchase from Bombay, out of Bombay. Prabhupāda: Aḥ, Bombay. Bombay is the center. So now we are having our temple, whenever you go, you can stay with us. Mr. Kallman: Yes, we've been out there many times. Prabhupāda: Hmm, hmm! Mrs. Kallman: In Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, Bombay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bombay also. Prabhupāda: And Māy... You have been in Māyāpura also? Mr. Kallman: No, we haven't ever been to Māyāpura. We keep... Prabhupāda: Mm, Māyāpura also. Mrs. Kallman: How is the school in Vṛndāvana? The school? Prabhupāda: That is still, building is going on. Mrs. Kallman: Have they started? Prabhupāda: After the building is finished. Mr. Kallman: Oh, you know, you must be very busy Prabhupāda, with your writings and your books. Prabhupāda: Yes, at night. At day time, I don't find time. Mr. Kallman: Hmm, hmm. Prabhupāda: But at night, I wait. Mr. Kallman: So, we just came to say hello. Prabhupāda: Hm. Mr. Kallman: To see you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Mr. Kallman: We'll see you at the parade. Prabhupāda: Give this to Mrs. Kallman. Yes. Mr. Kallman: Very, very much. Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, jaya. Rāmeśvara: We've been talking, if these management questions come, then it is a distraction, but also... Even if the devotees are here and it is preachings, even then it's, so much time is taken. So we want to do the thing which is most pleasing. So we were thinking to arrange a (indistinct) less darśana with the devotees. Prabhupāda: But outsider, if they refuse, they may be sādhu (?). Rāmeśvara: Hm. Prabhupāda: That is... Satsvarūpa: No outsiders. Prabhupāda: Hm? Satsvarūpa: No outsiders. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: We are arranging, I have arranged that each time in the morning when we go for a walk, we are taking all the devotees... Prabhupāda: Only for outsider you keep, say from 5 to 6, and... Rāmeśvara: Important men. Prabhupāda: Ha. Rāmeśvara: If they are important. Prabhupāda: Let them come one by one. If they come one at a time, they will sit down. They'll not try to go away. But if they come, see first too many, and go away, then another comes. Then it will be nice interview. Rāmeśvara: I see. There must be management. Hari-śauri: And the devotees can come in the morning for class. Prabhupāda: That's right. Try this experiment. Rāmeśvara: Anything that we can do to assist you in the translating work is the best service... Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Devotee (6): It's mustard oil. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (6): It's mustard oil with spices, and I am not sure what the fruit is. It may be mango, I'm not sure. Hari-śauri: It's some kind of crude mango pickle. Prabhupāda: Why not take little? Devotee (6): Do you want me to try to see what it is? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (6): Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: You have taken? What is that? Devotee (6): I can't tell. Prabhupāda: No taste? Devotee (6): It tastes like mustard oil and spices. I think it's mango. Devotee (7): Yes, that may be it. Devotee (6): I think it's green mango. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Devotee (6): What do you think? Hari-śauri: Yes, it's mango. Prabhupāda: It's mango? That's nice. Hari-śauri: Tastes like pickled onions. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This verse that we were studying yesterday: "You are fit to propagate the cult of devotional service. Therefore gradually hear all the truths about it from me. I shall tell you about them." [Mad. 20.107] Prabhupāda: This is the... [break] ...to see the newest sanitary condition. Devotee: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: Such an important country. So nasty everywhere, park, street, what is there? This is not good sign. In other cities, you see so neat and clean. Washington, even that parkway, so neat and clean. Why this city is neglected? Los Angeles also, neat and clean. Which other cities we went? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Detroit. Prabhupāda: Detroit is... Detroit is also. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That park was a little dirty also. Prabhupāda: Hm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Beer cans and... Prabhupāda: This is national degradation. Every state full of garbage, litters. Not only now, I was living here (indistinct); the last 10 years. At least I have seen. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of the parents of the devotees who came the other day, they said they went to Vṛndāvana, and the gentleman who bought those pictures, photographs in Washington... Prabhupāda: Hm. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said he was surprised how clean Vṛndāvana was. Prabhupāda: Many, even the poorest man's house you go in the village, you'll find everything neat and clean. At least the kitchen and eating, very neat and... Climatic condition is also nice. Almost all the year there is sunshine. Only during rainy season the sun is... That is also cooling a bit. After summer season, the rainy season covering, there is enjoyable cooling. Now everywhere... (end) *Morning Walk-*-July 13, 1976, New York Rāmeśvara: And Śrīla Prabhupāda said "Now you can go," otherwise he would not leave. Prabhupāda: And take some prasādam. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His father and mother are also very nice here. They are doing great service, both of them working in the restaurant. Prabhupāda: So many children are coming, very fortunate children, from the beginning Kṛṣṇa conscious. We had the chance of taking birth from such father and mother. So all these children should be taken care of very nicely. Oh, yes. They'll be asset for our movement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Future hope. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Therefore I wanted to organize the Gurukula very nicely. We have no objection. Let them produce hundreds of children. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that your Guru Mahārāja said... Prabhupāda: "If I could produce Kṛṣṇa conscious children, I am prepared to produce hundreds of children." What is the use of producing children like cats and dogs? Produce children like Prahlāda Mahārāja. The whole world will be benefited. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca. [break] Progeny, that is not condemned. Why it should be condemned? Let there be pregnancy, but Kṛṣṇa conscious. That, our Pradyumna's son, these, all children. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Aniruddha. *Prabhupāda: Very nice. They should be trained up properly. Special care should be taken. That is the idea of my Guru Mahārāja, a Gurukula. Gurukula, we are not going to make some big, big scholars. We don't require scholars. We require ideal men by character, by behavior, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not by studying grammar. There are many grammarians. Let them study our books nicely, English, little Sanskrit, that's all. Gurukula organize like that. We don't want big, big scholars. Unnecessarily. There are so many scholars in the universities, drinking and woman*-hunting, that's all. In the universities, I know, to get the degree, pass the examination, the girls have to adopt prostitution with the teachers, I know that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. In India? Rāmeśvara: Especially in America. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In America. Prabhupāda: That to pass the examination by prostitution. Whatever nonsense they may write, that's all right. This is Central Park still? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Central Park West, it's called. Prabhupāda: This is not education. Everything is killing. Therefore we are supposed to deal with all madmen. They are thinking that they are constructing such big, big buildings, they are the most exalted persons, but we take them as mad. *Ghostly haunted. A person ghostly haunted, as he does, acts, similarly, anyone who is under the clutches of māyā, he acts like this. [break] ...this church, I came. They purchased one set of books. And one lady, Mrs. McGuire I think, she arranged this meeting. Underneath there is subway. I was sitting there and the subway sound was cut*-cut cut-cut cut-cut. So I asked what is this and they said subway. Within this building there is subway. I think they are repairing. What is this building? That museum? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one? It's the Museum of Natural History. Hari-śauri: Memorial of Theodore Roosevelt. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This man Theodore Roosevelt, he was one of the presidents. He was a big hunter, he used to kill animals. And in front it says that he was famous for being a natural conservationist, protecting nature. Prabhupāda: By killing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a big planetarium here also at this museum. Rāmeśvara: Biggest in the world, I think. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, this planetarium is the most famous one, Heydn Planetarium. Prabhupāda: So see how the planetarium is done. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we should go, Rāmeśvara. Have you ever gone? Rāmeśvara: Many years ago. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we go to see it? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They use all kinds of lighting systems. Prabhupāda: So you take the idea. We shall have to do that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. All right. They have a special projector. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we may take the idea and utilize. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In our planetarium, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we want to actually show the different qualities of life on the different planetary systems also? Prabhupāda: Yes, as far as possible. There is Siddhaloka, they can go from one planet to another without any machine, without any vehicle. Siddhaloka means, just like the yogis, they can go. Rāmeśvara: Their body have..., they have wings? Prabhupāda: No wings. We think only our ideas, that without wings nobody can fly. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That picture wasn't accurate. Rāmeśvara: That was Gandharvaloka. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said they don't have wings either. Rāmeśvara: I know. Prabhupāda: So you are purchasing this house? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we thought you like it. Prabhupāda: It is nice house. It is half or...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, full. This one is very nice too. Prabhupāda: This is also for sale? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think, but it's very good for the temple, big. Prabhupāda: Purchase the whole property. (out of car) Hari-śauri: Haribol. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seems like it's two different buildings. It is two different buildings. It's just the left side, corner building. In fact, the corner building may be a different one also. What, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: She was speaking "You are threatening my dog"? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, she said "Don't touch my dog." She yelled at us, "Don't touch my dog." Hari-śauri: He had a muzzle on. See this man here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? He's emptied out all the wastepaper baskets all over the grass, and now he's searching through to see if there's anything of any value. Prabhupāda: What is valuable there? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Someone may have thrown something out which he could use. He's a bum. Prabhupāda: Another madman. In Hong Kong I have seen, they are searching some food. Hari-śauri: You can see in every big city, mainly older people, they go and look in all the rubbish bins. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like they'll find an empty bottle, and if they return the bottle to the shop, they'll get a deposit, ten or fifteen cents for a bottle deposit. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Māyāpura we've seen the little children coming looking for prasādam left over in the rubbish outside. Rāmeśvara: This is one of the big problems in the world today. They don't know how to dispose of all the paper and garbage that they go through. They are selling so many goods, and then they have to throw away the packages. They don't know how to get rid of the garbage. They try to throw it in the ocean sometimes. Prabhupāda: And for manufacturing the paper they are cutting so many trees and committing sinful life. Rāmeśvara: The scientists report that by throwing all this garbage in the ocean they kill many fish. Here in New York there is one beach called Coney Island, and no fish can live near the shore, they are all dying. Prabhupāda: Why they are so sympathetic to the fish? Because they will eat it. No? They are thinking that "We shall eat the fish, and they are dying." Is it not? Hari-śauri: Do you want your hat, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? No. This is ventilation. (laughter) You are feeling cold? Mister? You are feeling cold? Child: No. Devotee (1): It's that same lady again. *Ādi*-keśava: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we went to one other part of the park down there, and we found they have a big statue of a dog there, and it says "In honor of the dogs." Some sled-dogs that came and saved some people in Alaska in 1926, a big statue of a dog. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...cold. Prabhupāda: He has got some? Children are not affected. Old men are affected. For children, if there is diarrhea, it is good, but old man, if there is diarrhea he is going to die. [break] ...evolution of man, what about the trees? *Bali*-mardana: Trees? Prabhupāda: Trees and plants and aquatics and insects. Rādhāvallabha: They don't say anything much about trees, but they say aquatics eventually became walking animals. *Bali*-mardana: Yes, when the ocean dried up, then they had to develop lungs to breathe. But there is a type of fish that walks. So they say that this fish gradually developed legs and lungs and everything. Rādhāvallabha: The fish walks on his fins. They say after millions of years of walking on his fins, gradually the fins became legs. *Bali*-mardana: It is African lung-fish. It lives in the mud. Prabhupāda: And they do not speak anything about trees. Rādhāvallabha: Not that I've ever seen. Prabhupāda: Hum? Rādhāvallabha: I've never seen anything. Hari-śauri: No, they say the organisms that were originally in the water, and when there was some land formed... Prabhupāda: How is this grass evolving? Rādhāvallabha: They say that the wind blows the seeds. Or animals drop them. They also say that flying animals, like birds, came from the sea in one form. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I heard one island had just appeared sometime back from a volcano underneath the ocean in the middle of the Pacific. Hari-śauri: There's one near Norway as well. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The scientists wanted to find out how long it would take before life appeared on this island in the middle of nowhere. So they were thinking it might take thousands of millions and billions of years, because there had been no life there to begin with. But they found that within one year it was full of so much plants, vegetation. Prabhupāda: Just see, how rascal they are. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That should disprove all of their theories. Prabhupāda: They speak all... That the egg will take millions of years and the chicken is bringing within five days. So why these rascals do not transfer their doctorate title to the chicken (laughter) instead of bluffing other rascals that "We are doctorate"? They should be ashamed to keep their doctorate. "Now let us transfer to the chicken; within five days there is life." Huh? What do you think? Am I right or wrong? Hari-śauri: I am sure you are right. Prabhupāda: The chicken is bringing from the egg life within five days, and they are calculating millions of years. Such rascals are passing as scientists. If chemical is the basis of life, just make some experiment, take the chemical and make a small egg and put into the incubator and bring life. Why they do not, hmm? It will take millions of years, and the chicken is bringing within five days? *Bali*-mardana: They say in a few years they will do it. Prabhupāda: Why few years? Rascaldom. Dr. Chicken is doing in five days, so why you enjoy this title? You give up. You be ashamed. You are shameless, therefore you are talking all this nonsense. You have no human sense also. *Bali*-mardana: They say that in the laboratory we are working on this, and very soon we will have the answer. Prabhupāda: That means that you are a rascal. You admit that you are a rascal. We see one sparrow bringing within few days, life. So many birds, they are bringing life within few days. Rāmeśvara: They say there are certain chemicals in the body. Prabhupāda: All right, you rascal, big chemist, you combine these chemicals and bring life. Why do you not do that? Simply talking millions and trillions of years just to bluff other rascals. You are a rascal and you are bluffing other rascals. That is your business, and getting high salary, that's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even they can take a dead body, there's no need to manufacture the body, and try and put life back into it. Prabhupāda: Yes, give him some chemicals. So many dead bodies are being wasted. Give some chemical and let them come back in life. Jayādvaita: They are freezing the bodies sometimes, so that in the future when they perfect that ability, they'll revive these dead bodies and they'll live again. Prabhupāda: [break] ...things are going on. Rāmeśvara: [break] ...science called genetics, where they study the chemicals which determine the characteristics of the living entity, whether he has fair skin, or... Prabhupāda: That our Svarūpa Dāmodara has begun with this rascal genetics. He has written that Scientific Basis, beginning with these rascals, genetics. Rāmeśvara: Before they can try to create life, they have to master this science of genetics first. This controls whether a living entity has different color eyes and hair and ability to hear and see, everything. So they say when they have mastered that science, then the next step will be to create life. Prabhupāda: That will take millions of years. By that time he'll be finished. (laughter) Jayādvaita: Sometimes people say that although the body changes, the genes are the same, therefore it's not the soul that continues in the body, but these genes. So they argue that we're this body. Rāmeśvara: [break] ...that by genetics they can develop the higher qualities in man, and they can arrange at birth to develop the finest qualities, strength, different talents also, like artistic talents, musical talents, better intelligence, all by chemistry. Prabhupāda: So how much chemical he has devoured for becoming so intelligent? That man who is proposing chemicals, so how much quantity of chemical he has eaten to speak all this nonsense? *Bali*-mardana: One of their programs is selective breeding. Only let the so-called intelligent people have children and let all the unintelligent people not have any children. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then who will clean up the park if they do that? Rādhāvallabha: No one does it anyway. Rāmeśvara: They are thinking that in the future they can make... *Prabhupāda: All future. (dog barking) Future, however pleasant. Post*-dated check. Future, millions of years after, you'll get payment, take this check. Rādhāvallabha: This dog is after everyone, it attacks everyone that comes by, and the lady gets angry when they try to get the dog away. Prabhupāda: Is there fish here? Hari-śauri: It's just the water moving, little waves, that's all. This is just a pond for sailing model boats, so I don't think there'd be any fish. Devotee (1): There's fish in there. Hari-śauri: Fish? Devotee (1): Sure. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The fish eat up the algae, keep it clean. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...skyscraper building, how many stories they can build? Is there any estimation? Rādhāvallabha: Over a hundred. Prabhupāda: Now, how many? *Bali*-mardana: There is no exact figure; they are always making higher. Now I think a hundred and thirty. Rāmeśvara: No, it's more than that. *Bali*-mardana: A hundred thirty, a hundred forty. Prabhupāda: And when they'll fall? *Bali*-mardana: When the earthquake comes, boom, everything finished. *Hari-śauri: That structure you saw in Toronto, that big tower? That's supposed to be the highest free*-standing structure in the world. Over fifteen hundred feet. *Bali*-mardana: In Boston there is one big skyscraper, John Hancock Building, and they cannot utilize it because... What is the reason? *Ādi*-keśava: Every time the wind blows it begins to bend back and forth in the breeze. *Bali*-mardana: It swings. *Ādi*-keśava: It swings back and forth in the breeze, and all the windows fell out. When we were two years ago in Boston, every day we used to hear how more windows had fallen in, so they made it all with wood. So it was a huge skyscraper with wood in the windows instead of glass. *Bali*-mardana: Still they are not utilizing it. *Ādi*-keśava: No, it's still bent, it cracked open. *Bali*-mardana: It cost them over sixty, seventy million dollars and they cannot use it. *Ādi*-keśava: It cracked all the concrete in the sidewalk because it was bending back and forth. Prabhupāda: Which way? Devotee (1): Left. Prabhupāda: They have no estimation, that "So far we can come, then we'll fall"? *Bali*-mardana: It all depends upon the foundation. Rādhāvallabha: In New York they can build them so high because the entire island of Manhattan is made out of rock, and there's never any earthquakes. *Bali*-mardana: Not yet, anyway. Jayādvaita: As far as I know, they think that they can make them bigger and bigger without any limit. Devotee: Four hundred stories [break] Prabhupāda: And fell down later on. *Bali*-mardana: There is a story in the Bible how they were trying to build this big building, the Tower of Babel, and then the whole thing... Because they were so proud, God made them all speak different languages so they could not communicate with one another, and the whole project was finished. They were trying to build a huge building. Rādhāvallabha: They were actually trying to reach God. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. To reach heaven. That is how the Christians, in Christianity, explain that people speak different languages. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Japan they never build big buildings because they know the earthquakes will come. They have maybe ten, twelve stories at the most. Rādhāvallabha: [break] The big ones in New York, they build in such a way that it's very difficult to evacuate them in case of a fire, and this movie company did a movie of the two buildings burning up. So after that no one would move into them. They were half empty. So the city had to move all of its government offices into the buildings just to fill them. (dog barking) The Russian dogs are the largest dogs in the world. *Bali*-mardana: Dogs to hunt wolves. These dogs are used to hunt wolves in Russia. [break] Prabhupāda: (in car) ...saṅge calo, ei mātra bhikhā cāi. "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and come with us," that's all. We don't want any more. No fees. We don't say, "First of all pay so many dollars." There is no condition. "Simply chant and come here. We shall arrange for your food, we shall arrange for your shelter, everything." Still they will not come. They will go and pay fees and chant nonsense. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe we should charge, then they will become more encouraged. Prabhupāda: No. No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Others will be discouraged. Hari-śauri: The ones who are paying are the ones who want to be cheated. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: The ones who are paying are the ones that want to be cheated, and the ones who come here are the ones that are serious. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rāmeśvara: You once said that the scientists are the number*-one enemy of mankind. Prabhupāda: They are not enemy, but because they are bluffing, "There is no God, everything is science..." That is their foolishness. We are protesting against that. Rāmeśvara: People have a lot of faith that the world is making progress through the scientists. Prabhupāda: What progress they have made? Rādhāvallabha: Towards destruction. Prabhupāda: Have they stopped death? What is progress? After all, we are going to die. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have increased the chance of death. They only have increased. Prabhupāda: Even not increase, even it is very comfortable, but you have to die. First of all check this. You have to become old. What you have done in that direction? Hari-śauri: Killing people quicker so that they don't have to face old age. Rāmeśvara: They have bluffed everyone that the life duration has increased. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they have said that. Rāmeśvara: By the improvement in medicine... Prabhupāda: That's right, accepting increase, but it is not that death is stopped. Just like they have made so many medical improvements, but that does not mean that they have stopped disease. Hari-śauri: Well, they don't claim they can stop death. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. What is the improvement? If you stop disease, then it is improvement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say no one can do that. Prabhupāda: Then you are subordinate. Do not claim all in all because you are scientist. Then you are controlled. You have to accept. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We accept that no one is perfect. Prabhupāda: No, controlled. That is their defect. They are being controlled in every step, still, they think they are free. That is their defect. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. They are fully controlled by the laws of nature, still the great rascal, he's thinking that he's free. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But gradually, they say, we will learn to control nature. Prabhupāda: That gradual, that will never come, and that is their another foolishness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes they are seeing, though, that by their endeavors they are successful. Just like they may try to cure some disease, and then sometimes they are seeing that they are baffled. This leads them to think they are independent. This is leading them to think that they are independent, that sometimes they are successful. Prabhupāda: No, they try their best, but still they are baffled. That means they admit there is some controller. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: That is intelligent. Hari-śauri: But because they are all Dr. Frog, they are thinking that things are so far out of their control that no one can control it, that material nature is not controlled by anyone. They are thinking that because they cannot control material nature, then no one can. Prabhupāda: But they are being controlled. They, themselves, being controlled. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they say nature means laws, impersonal laws. Prabhupāda: That's all right, impersonal laws, but you are controlled, rascal. That you admit. Whatever it may be, you rascal, you are controlled. Rāmeśvara: They say if everyone joined this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, then no one would have any desire to invent the automobile, the airplane... Prabhupāda: But it is useless waste of time. The sooner they give up all these attempts, they become saner. [break]... it is said it is simply waste of time. Yato āyur vyayaḥ param. Simply wasting time, valuable life. Rāmeśvara: : But the natural instinct is to want to enjoy varieties... *Prabhupāda: That is material life. The material life means falsely he's thinking that he'll be happy by material adjustment. That is material life. Falsely he's thinking. He'll never be happy, but they are thinking like that. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā [SB 7.5.31]. Durāśayā means this hope will never be fulfilled. That is called durāśayā, a hope which is not going to be successful at any time. And throughout the whole history they have tried, the British Empire, the Roman Empire, the Egyptian Empire, so many they tried, but all failed. Napoleon, Hitler, but still they have no eyes to see. From the history you see, everything failed. Napoleon started with some ideal, conquering all over Europe, and at last he had to die drinking horse urine. You know that? It was, later on he was arrested by British, and when he was asking drinking water he was given horse urine. That was his last life. Hari-śauri: That was when he died? He died then? Prabhupāda: He was so much insulted. Because every European countries were harassed, they had very bad idea about this Napoleon. Unnecessarily expanding the interest of France. "France and Napoleon, one." Now where is that rascal? France is there. This is going on. British Empire means bring money, hook or crook, in London, and you get the title, "lord," "baron," this... This was their policy. "Sir." All hooligans, thieves, rogues, they were made big, big respectable people. A deposit in the government, this lord family means they have to deposit, say, ten million pounds, like that, and the government takes that money as fixed deposit, and the interest the family will maintain the aristocracy. This is the lord's family. Some way or other you deposit ten million pounds and your family becomes lord's family. So people become mad after money, somehow or other bring money. There was no other culture. In order to introduce their Manchester cloth, how they killed the home industry of India, cloth merchant, this weaver... Just like we are trying. It is very long time, this, the handloom. They cut the finger. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The British did that. Prabhupāda: The British did that so that the weavers could not work, just to introduce their Manchester's cloth. So many things they did. It is in the history. Rāmeśvara: In America you never hear such history, in school... Prabhupāda: They simply killed the Red Indians, that is the only. Rāmeśvara: But in the schools they never tell you these things. Prabhupāda: How they will tell, shameful. Hari-śauri: In England it was "How we saved India." Prabhupāda: Yes. Now who is saving India? Rāmeśvara: They say the "white man's burden." They came to make India civilized. Hari-śauri: They showed us this... Prabhupāda: Therefore all the śāstras, they bring it within Christian era. Before that, India was uncivilized. And if they accept all the Vedic literature, so exalted, then they have to accept Indian civilization. That is their propaganda. Simply propaganda, that's all. Rāmeśvara: That's why you say Darwinism was started by the English... Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: ...to discredit the Vedic literature. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's just like a bunch of demons. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like it's such a concerted effort, a conspiracy of all the leaders of the world. Rāmeśvara: Greed conspiracy. Leaders, the bankers they say. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's another deep point. Scientists are pointing to the bankers, each group points to the other, and they all cheat together. Just like we used to do... (indistinct) *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These demons, Śrīla Prabhupāda, all of them are dehātma*-buddhi? Prabhupāda: Yes, all they have... (end) *Interview with Newsweek-*-July 14, 1976, New York Rāmeśvara: ...from our public relations firm. She's assisting us in arranging for these interviews. We were just meeting with Wanda and telling her a little bit about how you began the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement here in America. Interviewer: Well, perhaps you could continue where they left off. Could you tell me why you came to the United States in 1965. Did you feel that this was a mission that you had to fulfill? Prabhupāda: Yes, not only United States, but everywhere people do not know what is spiritual life. They have no knowledge how to develop spiritual life, although it is... The only business of human form of life is to understand spiritual life. Interviewer: Are you retiring now? Prabhupāda: I'm always retired. I began this movement in my retirement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said he was always retired, and he began... After retiring, he began this movement. Prabhupāda: What do you mean by retired life? Interviewer: I mean are you giving up your position as spiritual leader? Rāmeśvara: She means now you are going back to India. Does that mean you are retiring from traveling all over the world preaching? Prabhupāda: No, she said that spiritual life... "What do you mean by spiri...?" Hari-śauri: Spiritual leader of the movement. Rāmeśvara: Managing and everything. Prabhupāda: So why you are asking this question. Interviewer: Well, I'm curious. Prabhupāda: No, why you are curious about this? Whether I am retiring or not, that is... Interviewer: What's the reason I'm curious? Ah, because we're trying to, at Newsweek, develop and try to understand what the trends are in religion, all types of religion, whether it be Christianity, Catholicism, Evangelicism... Prabhupāda: Spiritual life is never retired. It is eternal. There is no question of retire. Interviewer: I was wondering whether perhaps you would personally take a less active role. Prabhupāda: No, I am not taking any very great active part. They are doing. I am simply reading. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda is saying that the disciples are working so hard. Interviewer: Oh, I see. Rāmeśvara: But I was explaining to her that you are traveling all over the world, visiting your centers, and at the same time writing so many books. Prabhupāda: That may be lessened. That may be lessened, but that does not mean retirement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He may not travel as much, but that doesn't mean retiring from spiritual life, because spiritual life goes on continuously at all times... Interviewer: I didn't mean that he was retiring from spiritual life. Hari-śauri: From management. *Bali*-mardana: His main work is his books, so he'll continue that. Interviewer: I was wondering if he had a successor to do... Do you have a successor to take your place when you die? Prabhupāda: Not yet settled up. Not yet settled up. Interviewer: So what process would the Hare Kṛṣṇas...? Prabhupāda: We have got secretaries. They are managing. Rāmeśvara: He has appointed from all the disciples a group of secretaries. Each one is in charge of a different sector of the world. Interviewer: How many secretaries? Rāmeśvara: Presently there is eighteen. Interviewer: And so that group of eighteen secretaries will choose another leader? Prabhupāda: I am training each one of them as leader so that they can spread extensively. That is my idea. Interviewer: So, in other words, you started this whole movement here in the United States ten years ago. Would you say that the United States had the most active, financially, group of followers. Prabhupāda: What is that? Rāmeśvara: She wants to know, seeing you chose the United States to begin this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement ten years ago, now do you find that in the United States there is the most active membership financially speaking. In terms of contributing to this movement, supporting the movement, is the best field America? Prabhupāda: No, without finance we can go on. Rāmeśvara: Without finance we can go on. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Oh, we can go on? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: How? Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not have any financial help, but His movement is going on. It does not depend on a..., on financial. It is independent. Spiritual movement is independent of any material help. That is spiritual movement. Interviewer: But how would you be able to carry out your educational or book publishing program if you did not have a financial backing? Prabhupāda: How I am managing now? Interviewer: But now you are doing well financially. Prabhupāda: You are stressing on financial help but my reply is that this movement does not depend on financial help. That is the reply. *Bali*-mardana: In the beginning... Prabhupāda: Any time, it does not depend on financial help. Interviewer: Why would you say you were doing so well? Rāmeśvara: We don't tithe our members. In other words, our congregations do not pay dues. We are depending on Kṛṣṇa. We're simply trying to print books, and we show them to people, and then Kṛṣṇa inspires them to purchase or give a contribution. It's not that we have people making large contributions or a congregation that pays dues. Interviewer: So where does most of your money come from? Rāmeśvara: She wants to know where most of our money comes from. Prabhupāda: Money comes from Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: From where? Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: Ah, Rāmeśvara, maybe if Prabhupāda just told how, in the first year how the books were sold, before there was this publishing. There was a time in which there was just a storefront. How were these books sold in the very beginning? Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda personally went to the printer in Japan. He personally made the arrangement with the printer, the first printing. Interviewer: But how did he sell his first book in America? Hari-śauri: On the boat to the ship's captain. Interviewer: There was a process... Prabhupāda: I mean to say, "What is our financial arrangement?" Why these questions are being raised? This is not interview about the movement. They are very much interested about our financial help. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda's observing that they are very interested in our financial backing. Interviewer: What do you think about some of the other gurus, if you will, since you are yourself considered a guru? Do you study anybody else? Prabhupāda: These answers you can give. *Bali*-mardana: : She said what do you think about the other gurus. Prabhupāda: Why shall I think of other gurus? *Bali*-mardana: He does not study them. Prabhupāda: Why shall I think of other gurus? "Oil your own machine." (laughter) Devotees: "Oil your own machine." Interviewer: Could you tell me a little bit about your background, when you were young, what types of things you did... Prabhupāda: Why shall I tell you? Interviewer: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: Why shall I tell you? Interviewer: If you wish. Prabhupāda: Why shall I wish? Interviewer: Well, reporters have to ask these questions. Otherwise I would be out of business. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda is hoping that you'll ask something that is relevant to this... Rāmeśvara: People are interested to know about you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And if they take an interest in you, then they will automatically be interested in your books also. They are very eager to know about the author of all these books that we are selling. Prabhupāda: But these books, books... We'll speak about the books. Does it depend, what the author was doing previously? Interviewer: You are the translator of many books, from what I understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that translation, the book, will speak how I have translated. Interviewer: Um hm. I was wondering... Prabhupāda: You read the books, Then you'll understand. Instead of asking me, you better read the books. That is real understanding. Interviewer: I was just wondering how he personally got interested or involved, and what his route to his consciousness was. Rāmeśvara: I see. She's asking about your relationship with your Guru Mahārāja, how you became inspired to start the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and write so many books. Prabhupāda: These things you can answer. It is not very important things for public. Rāmeśvara: I think the public always likes to know about the person behind the movement. Lady Guest: Yes, it helps. People are interested. People are interested in development of a man like you because they relate. And that way they decide to read what you write. Prabhupāda: First thing is that if you are interested in our book, so, you read our books. You'll understand. Interviewer: Understand you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Is that what you're saying? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Is that what he's saying? Prabhupāda: A man is known when he speaks. When he speaks. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate: "A fool is so long beautiful as long as he does not speak." When he speaks, then you can understand what he is. So my speaking are there in the books, and if you are intelligent, you can understand. You haven't got to ask. Speaking... Just like in a court. A big lawyer is known when he speaks. Otherwise everyone is a good lawyer. But when he speaks in the court, then he is known, whether he is good lawyer or not. So you have to hear. You have to read. Then you'll understand. Real understanding is there. Interviewer: Do you think that some day the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will spread to all the people in the world? Prabhupāda: That is not possible. It is more for the most intelligent class of men. So it, this movement, is for the most intelligent class of men. Interviewer: But amongst the most intelligent classes. Prabhupāda: Unless one is intelligent class, belonging to the in..., he cannot understand. So we don't expect that everyone is intelligent. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaja se baḍa catura. Unless one is very intelligent, he cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious, because it is a different subject matter. People are engrossed with the bodily concept of life. It is beyond that. So dull brain cannot understand what is beyond this body. So you cannot expect that everyone will understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not possible. Interviewer: There has been a lot of talk of genetic perfection of mankind, or, say, attempting a genetic perfection. Prabhupāda: What is genetic? Interviewer: What is genetic perfection? *Bali*-mardana: We were discussing yesterday about the science of genetics. They try to understand the traits, how the body and mind are formed, and then try to change it. Prabhupāda: That we have already... Where is that book? Rāmeśvara: Svarūpa Dāmodara's book. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bring. Rāmeśvara: Well, what is your question? Interviewer: My question is... You were mentioning earlier about using the technological tools, and if there is some society where there is some... Prabhupāda: That book is not here? Nowhere? Interviewer: Let me ask you. If through technological means mankind is somewhat improved, in other words, the average man is much more intelligent, what you would consider now to be an intelligent man... *Prabhupāda: But intelligent man... If one understands that he is not this body-he is within the body... Just like you have got one shirt. You are not the shirt. Anyone can understand. You are within the shirt. Similarly, a person who understands that he is not the body*-he is within the body... That anyone can understand because when the body is dead, what is the difference? Because the living force within the body is gone, therefore we call the body dead. Interviewer: But there are some very intelligent men who are not spiritually enlightened, perhaps even men who understand that they are not, or the body is not all, the body is dead and there is something else. Why aren't these men spiritually aware? Prabhupāda: If one does not understand this simple thing, that he is not body, then he is no better than animal. That is the first understanding of spiritual platform. If he thinks that he is body, then he is in the same category as the animals. Rāmeśvara: Her question is... Suppose someone has some faith in life after death, and he also may be an intelligent man by material standards. Why isn't he automatically...? Prabhupāda: No, material standard is no intelligence. Material standard is that "I am this body. I am American. I an Indian. I am fox. I am dog. I am man." This is material understanding. Spiritual understanding is beyond that, that "I am not this body." And when he tries to understand that spiritual identification, then he is intelligent. Otherwise he is not intelligent. Interviewer: So does this mean... Prabhupāda: They have been described as mūḍha. Mūḍha means asses. So this is the first understanding, that one should not identify with this body. Interviewer: What understandings come after...? *Prabhupāda: Just like dog. Dog understands that he is body. If a man also understands like that*-he is body-then he's no better than the dog. Interviewer: What other understandings come after this one? *Bali*-mardana: After you realize that you're not the body, then what comes next? *Prabhupāda: Ha! That is intelligent question. Then one has to find out that "I am engaged only in this bodily concept of life. Then what is my engagement?" That is the inquiry of Sanātana Gosvāmī, that "You have relieved me from this material engagement. Now let me know what is my duty." For that reason one has to go to the spiritual master, to know, understand that what is his duty now. "If I am not this body, then what is my duty? Because I am busy whole day and night for this body. I am eating, I am sleeping I am having sex, I am defending*-these are all bodily necessities. If I am not body, then what is my duty?" That is intelligence. *Rāmeśvara: So you said, "What is the next thing after realizing you're not this body?" Prabhupāda says the next thing is to find out what you should be doing, and for that, you take information from a self*-realized soul or spiritual master. Interviewer: Spiritual master in the form of his books. *Bali*-mardana: Personally or... *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda was explaining that now in the bodily concept we have so many duties. We are working, we are having sex life, we are eating, sleeping, defending ourselves*-so many things. All of this is in the relationship to the body. But if I'm not this body, then what is my duty? What is my responsibility? So the next thing is that when one understands this, then he must take instruction from the spiritual master, make progress and understand what real duty is. It's very important. *Prabhupāda: Even for eating, sleeping, sex life and defense we require some knowledge from a teacher. Say for eating, so we take knowledge from expert what kind of eating we shall take, what kind of vitamin, what kind of... So that also requires education. And sleeping also requires education. And so for bodily concept of life one has to take knowledge from others. So when he is above this bodily concept of life*-he understands that "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul"*-so similarly he has to take lesson and education from an expert. *Interviewer: Could you go over each of the three functions you've been mentioning-eating, sleeping and sex*-and tell me what specifically, what rules or hints that you would give people who are seeking spiritual enlightenment to aid in their lives in these ways. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is our books. It is our books. We have got enough matter to understand. It is not a thing that you'll understand in a minute. Interviewer: I understand you sleep very little. You sleep three to four hours a night. Do you feel that this is what any person who is spiritually actualized will also realize? Prabhupāda: Yes, we see from the behavior of the Gosvāmīs. They practically had no material necessities. This eating, sleeping, mating and defending, practically they had no such thing. They are simply engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. Interviewer: Engaged in Kṛṣṇa's...? Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa's business or God's service. *Bali*-mardana: He's setting the example of the previous spiritual masters. Interviewer: Well, what I was interested in is why... Has he found that three to four hours is the necessary time period to sleep? *Bali*-mardana: She's asking why is three to four hours the amount that you sleep. How have you reached that standard? Prabhupāda: That is not artificially. The more you are engaged in spiritual activities, the more you become free from material activities. That is the test. Interviewer: And so you've arrived at that... Prabhupāda: No, I don't speak about myself, but that is the test. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. If you advance in bhakti, in spiritual life, then you become disinterested in material life. Interviewer: Do you think there's a difference between the various peoples of the world? In other words, do you think that Indians as opposed to Europeans have more of a tendency or are more likely to adhere to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: No, any intelligent man can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That I have already explained, that unless one is very intelligent, he cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it is open for everyone. But there are different grades of intelligence. In Europe, America, they are intelligent, but their intelligence is utilized for material purposes. And in India their intelligence is utilized for spiritual purpose. Therefore you find so many highly spiritual standard of life, books, literature. Just like Vyāsadeva. Vyāsadeva was also in householder life, but he was living in the forest, and see his contribution of literature. Nobody can dream even. So by literary contribution, one's intelligence is tested. All big, big men of the material world, scientists, philosophers, even technicians, they are recognized by their writings, by their contribution, not by their gigantic body. Interviewer: Could you tell me a little bit about your educational system that you have helped to establish, particularly here in the States. Rāmeśvara: Gurukula. She's asking if you could tell her about the system of education you have established in America. Prabhupāda: That you can see, what education I have given to my disciples. The first education is that they must be free from all sinful activities. That is the first education. According to the Vedic instruction, a man is supposed to be educated, even from material point of view, a man is supposed to be educated when he sees every woman as mother. Interviewer: As? Prabhupāda: As mother. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He sees every woman as his mother. Prabhupāda: That is the standard of education. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda said one of the standards of education is to see all living entities equally. So not that we say that an animal has no soul, therefore he can go to the slaughterhouse, but a man has soul, so he cannot. Because we see all living entities equally, so we do not send man to slaughterhouse, and we do not send animals to slaughterhouse. That is education. Interviewer: What... In your system, what do you propose to do with criminals? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What do you propose to do with criminals in your educational system? How will you reform them? Prabhupāda: Criminals should be punished. Interviewer: Punished? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: How so? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How seriously should they be punished? *Prabhupāda: That you have to consult śāstra. There is direction. It is... Practically it is the same. Just like Manu*-saṁhitā, it says that if one is a murderer then he should be killed. Life for life. He should be hanged. That is the old system. The king used to kill a murderer. So that is almost the same punishment. Rāmeśvara: What Prabhupāda said is that you have to consult the ancient law books which were written, which are part of Indian culture, thousands of years ago. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Part of the Vedic scriptures. Rāmeśvara: They are our lawbook. Just like we have books of philosophy, there are also books of law, how to govern society, how to deal with criminals. In other words, we are sticking to the Vedic literatures. As they instruct, we are following. Interviewer: What do the Vedic literatures say about adultery? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about adultery, Prabhupāda? She wants to know what the *Vedas* say should be the... What is the reaction for adultery? How does one deal with an adulterer? If someone is an adulterer and he's caught, what should be the... Prabhupāda: No, there is no such direct punishment, but it is prohibited. It is prohibited. Rāmeśvara: There is no direct punishment, but it is prohibited. Part of education and social convention, it is prohibited. Not that the government allows propaganda to be made for illicit sex. Prabhupāda: The other words, the woman who is chaste, she is very much glorified. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A chaste woman is very much glorified in Vedic culture. Interviewer: I'm particularly interested in the educational system that you are setting up. Do you think... *Bali*-mardana: You mean for children? Rāmeśvara: She's referring to now the system that we have for our children, Gurukula. So what's the question? Interviewer: My question is because they are receiving this education, physical and spiritual education so that they will be free of corruption and sin, they might still, even with this education, they still might not be intelligent, what you consider intelligent people. How, you know... Is it more likely that they will be what you would term intelligent, having been educated in this system? Prabhupāda: No, there are different types of education. Just like in the material world. There is education for medical man. There is education for engineer. There is education for so many other departments. Similarly, there is education how to make one man spiritual. So we are going to give education how to become spiritually advanced. That is our purpose. Rāmeśvara: Spiritually advanced, that is our purpose. No, her question was whether all the people that go to our Gurukula will become spiritually advanced. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly. That is Gurukula education. Rāmeśvara: Even though some are born with more intelligence and some are born with less intelligence. Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. Average intelligence will do. Interviewer: Well, then conceivably it seems that almost the great majority of society would adhere to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Rāmeśvara: So then, since it doesn't matter whether less intelligent, small intelligent, if they go to Gurukula, they can become spiritually advanced. Prabhupāda: Yes, because spiritually everyone is free from material bondage. So materially we find one is more intelligent, one is less intelligent, but spiritually everyone can be equally intelligent. Rāmeśvara: So what about the common man? If he accepts the Gurukula system he can also be spiritually advanced? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, anyone, anyone. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda's point in the beginning was whether they will accept it or not. But once they accept it, once they get trained, then they will automatically be advanced. His point in the beginning was whether they'll accept it or not. That requires intelligence. *Bali*-mardana: He has to undergo a type of conditioning. Rāmeśvara: Or training. Lady Guest: I think he was defining his definition of intelligence in the spiritual realm as opposed to material intelligence. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda said intelligence means you accept the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness or you accept to be trained to be spiritually advanced. Lady Guest: It's like an hypothesis. Interviewer: Don't you find the whole Kṛṣṇa movement more successful in an age and era when there is such laxity of moral standards and spiritual leadership and direction? Prabhupāda: No, at any stage of life, if one accepts the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he can make advance. Rāmeśvara: She asked, "Is it more favorable for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness if there is some material problems, social problems? If there is a lack of God consciousness, then people become frustrated. Is that a more favorable situation for Kṛṣṇa consciousness to take root?" Prabhupāda: Yes, if we arrange social, political and everything favorable for spiritual understanding, then it becomes easier. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is saying the opposite than what you hypothesized. In other words, if everything is arranged socially, politically, everything, in a God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious manner, then it is easier to accept the principles of God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Just like... These are all discussed in the Bhagavad*-gītā, what kind of social arrangement should be. That... It is called varṇāśrama-dharma. A brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha-these are different groups, and if they are favorably trained up then spiritual understanding becomes very easy. Interviewer: Can you tell me a little bit about the future direction of the movement, how you plan to expand. Prabhupāda: That is... That is going on already. Just like these boys, they did not know about Kṛṣṇa some years ago, but they are taking seriously. The same process, if it is continued, then people will take. Rāmeśvara: In other words, Prabhupāda sees that if we just continue the programs that he has introduced, just like we have already become members, similarly, many others will continue to become members in the future if we just continue the same programs which made us members, namely the chanting of the mantra, distributing of the books, distribution of the... Prabhupāda: And following the regulative principles. Rāmeśvara: And very carefully following the training system that Prabhupāda has given us for becoming advanced spiritually. That involves what to eat, what not to eat, and how to avoid taking drugs, intoxicants. There are certain principles. *Bali*-mardana: In other words, Prabhupāda is creating a class of purified persons, so they are located throughout the world, and if other persons come to them, then they become purified. Just like we have come to Prabhupāda and we have become purified, similarly his disciples are empowered to purify others because they have become pure. In that way it increases geometrically. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's an educational process. Someone coming from the street you can't expect that he's given a degree in chemistry. He has to be trained up. So the educational process goes on and on. It expands naturally. *Bali*-mardana: Just like in the beginning Prabhupāda was teaching Bhagavad-gītā personally to his disciples. But now in each one of his over a hundred temples throughout the world, his instructions are being taught. So he's expanded himself through his books and his temples. So anyone who enters into them, they are associating with him and becoming purified. So then more temples, more people come and become purified. Interviewer: Are you prepared to die? Prabhupāda: What is this question? *Bali*-mardana: Are you prepared to die? Prabhupāda: You are not prepared? Why don't you answer? Interviewer: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: You are not prepared to die? Interviewer: I haven't thought about it too much. Prabhupāda: Why you are asking me, "Why"? Because you are afraid. You are not prepared to die. Interviewer: Perhaps that's the reason. Prabhupāda: Everyone will die. You prepare or not prepare, you'll die. It doesn't matter whether you are prepared or not. Death must be there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Sure as death." *Rāmeśvara: Our philosophy, as Prabhupāda said in the beginning, is that spiritually there is no end. There is no such thing as death for the soul, self*-realized soul. There is simply death of the body. Prabhupāda: These things are discussed. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Find out this verse. It is an educational movement, it is not a religious movement, sentiment. One requires to be educated; then he is completely on the spiritual platform. Interviewer: Let me ask you one more question before he reads the passage. Prabhupāda: No, first of all about death. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The translation is, "For the soul there is never birth nor death nor having once been does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever*-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." Prabhupāda: So there is no question of death for a spiritually realized person. Interviewer: Is there any method for dissent within your movement? Or change? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Reform, you mean? Changing the teaching perhaps, to fit the times? Rāmeśvara: Just like in the church, as the public mood is changed, they have compromised on certain issues like abortion, homosexuality, priests getting married. So she wants to know if in our movement there will be this arrangement also. (laughter) Interviewer: Well, I didn't necessarily mean the specifics. *Bali*-mardana: In other words the purity is maintained by... The system is perfect to begin with so it remains perfect by being unchanged. If the system is imperfect, you may always be questioning. Prabhupāda: Yes. When the system is imperfect, then it has to be changed according to time and circumstance. But if the system is itself perfect, there is no question of... Just like the perfect system: the sun rises from the eastern side. So for millions and trillions of years the system is going on because the system is perfect. It doesn't require change, neither you can change. You cannot ask the sun to rise from the western side. So if the soul is eternal, it does not die or it is slain after the body is finished. But that is eternal fact. Destined in the past present and future, everything. *Interviewer: How important is your physical environment to you? If this room is very lovely-it has light and space and air and flowers*-is this important at all or would it be the same to you to be sitting out on the street? Prabhupāda: No, why shall I sit if I can sit down on the open space anywhere, on the bank of the river, on the bank of the ocean. There are so many open spaces. You can sit down there. *Bali*-mardana: Her question was, "Is your physical place important, surroundings"? *Prabhupāda: Yes. So long I have got this physical body, I have to give some physical facility. Yukta*-vairāgya. If I can write my books in a comfortable place, why shall I voluntarily go to a dark place? Material facilities, either dark place or lighted place, it is the same thing, but I'll have to accept which is favorable for me. Rāmeśvara: In other words, our system is, as I explained out there, we are not averse to using material facilities in our service to Kṛṣṇa. *Bali*-mardana: We're not dependent upon them. Rāmeśvara: We're not dependent on them, but if they are available, we must use them for Kṛṣṇa. *Bali*-mardana: Prabhupāda has undergone great difficulties... Prabhupāda: After all, anything, material or spiritual, that is Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Interviewer: That is what? Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa's arrangement, after all. Anything material or anything spiritual, it's His arrangement. Prabhupāda: What we say material, that is not aloof from Kṛṣṇa. That is also Kṛṣṇa's energy. Just like darkness and light. Both of them are related to the sun. Is it not? What is darkness? Absence of light. Is it not? Interviewer: Can you tell me what this painting up here is? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Painting of the spiritual sky. Prabhupāda: Explain. Interviewer: Painting of the spiritual sky? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's a picture of the entire creation. It shows many different... Each of these spheres is a planet. And you may notice that on the right hand bottom corner there is a darker area. That darker portion is known as the material world. By world we don't mean just mean this planet; *we mean a composite of all of the material universes. But these only make up one small portion of the entire creation. Just for our understanding it's said to be about one fourth of the creation, the entire composite of all the material universes. The other three*-fourths are made up of spiritual planets, which are self-illuminating. There's no need of sunshine, or moon, light or electricity. [break] ...and full of knowledge. Whereas here life is very temporary and it's not always blissful and there's a lot of ignorance also. Interviewer: But you are living in a spiritual planet here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, this planet is part of the material universe, but because our consciousness is Kṛṣṇa conscious, or God conscious, practically we are not affected very much by the conditions of the material world. Just like one of the conditions is fearfulness of death. But because we're... Prabhupāda: I can give one example. Just like royal throne. The king is there, and a bug is there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On a royal throne there's a king... Prabhupāda: And the bug. Rāmeśvara: Also a mosquito may be there also. Prabhupāda: But the mosquito is mosquito, and the king is king, although they are sitting on the same place. *Bali*-mardana: Both sitting on the throne. Rāmeśvara: Everyone is here on this planet. Some people are affected by the material conditions..., Prabhupāda: He's mosquito. Rāmeśvara: He's the bug. Prabhupāda: This is the best example. On the throne, both of them are sitting, but king's consciousness and mosquito's consciousness are different. It is not because they are on the same throne, therefore of the same conscious. Mosquito's business is to bite, and king's business is to rule over. Rāmeśvara: Another important thing to note about this painting is that the material world is said to be a reflection of the spiritual world. Just like here in this universe there are many planets, similarly there are many planets in the spiritual world. But it is a perverted reflection. Prabhupāda: And besides that, even we are claiming to be very materially advanced, we do not know everything of the material world. Just like so big universe, material, what do you know about that? We have no knowledge practically. Even of the material world we have no sufficient knowledge, what to speak of the spiritual world. Interviewer: Could you tell me something about your altar? Prabhupāda: Which altar? This Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Lord Nityānanda, we are worshiping Him. Rāmeśvara: The two figures on the throne of the altar represent an incarnation of God named Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityānanda, and They both appeared in India approximately five hundred years ago. They are incarnations of God, God Himself, who descends into this world. So those forms represent the Supreme Lord. Therefore we are worshiping Them. And below, on the step, are the pictures of the spiritual masters coming in the disciplic succession from Lord Caitanya when He appeared in this world five hundred years ago. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Lord Caitanya started this movement, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa congregationally. It was predicted five thousand years ago in the Vedic scriptures that in this age, the present age, the Lord would appear and would teach the real religious process for this age which is chanting of the holy names. Rāmeśvara: This is very traditional in India, temple worship and the figures are on the altar. It's very very traditional. It goes back many thousands of years. Interviewer: Let me ask you one more question. Why are you returning to India? Had you ever considered staying here in the United States? Prabhupāda: I have got branches everywhere. Just like I am coming here after traveling so many branches, similarly I am going to India. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda has no fixed home. Prabhupāda: I want to see that every center, things are going on nicely. Interviewer: Oh, I see. I thought you were not returning to the United States. Cyavana: He has traveled the world sixteen times around? Prabhupāda: Yes, sixteen times. Cyavana: Sixteen times around in ten years. So this is a common thing for Prabhupāda to do. Prabhupāda: Just to inspect things, how they are going on. Rāmeśvara: Just to inspect things. Interviewer: But you might want to come back to the U.S.? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not. Rāmeśvara: He might. But there are many projects in India now. That we can talk about. Prabhupāda: Every year, almost six to seven months, I pass outside India. Rāmeśvara: Wanda, do you have any more questions you'd like to ask? Interviewer: I'm looking. (pause) Rāmeśvara: We've taped the conversation, and we're going to transcribe it for you and send it to your office. Interviewer: Oh, we would certainly appreciate it. [break] Prabhupāda: They are on the same plane, but different consciousness. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think she was the senior editor that was supposed... [break] ...someone like her that... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The first time they've ever heard such things in any case. Even if they are religious by Western standards, they've never heard such things before, "I'm not this body." She'd never heard it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one has any knowledge at all about religion. Prabhupāda: Mūḍha. That is the general statement, mūḍha. Cyavana: They see our movement as being material. Prabhupāda: Because they have no other conception than material. Cyavana: They don't see the spiritual aspect at all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have no other conception. They can't recognize. Prabhupāda: They have no other conception. Therefore they misunderstand. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in India nowadays they are confused also. *Prabhupāda: Yes. In Caitanya*-bhāgavata there is a word, vaiṣṇavera kriyā-mudrā vijñe nā bujhāya: "The activities of a Vaiṣṇava, even the most intelligent person of this world cannot understand." Vaiṣṇavera kriyā-mudrā vijñe nā bujhāya. Hari-śauri: I remember reading in the Kṛṣṇa Book, you mention that to the ordinary man a Vaiṣṇava appears to be crazy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, if they are going to have another interview at one, I think perhaps you can take rest now. (end) *Interview with Newsday Newspaper-*-July 14, 1976, New York Prabhupāda: Give him chair. They... Give... Rāmeśvara: These gentlemen are a reporter and a photographer from a very large newspaper in Long Island called Newsday. This is Mr. Kevin Layhart... Prabhupāda: So they require chair? Rāmeśvara: He's asking if you'd like a chair. Interviewer: No, this is all right. Rāmeśvara: This is Mr. Bill Semm. He's a photographer from their newspaper. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Sit down. You have seen our books? Interviewer: Yes, I have. You translated all of those. (pause) [break] ...I wonder if you could tell me how you came to founding the movement here in the United States. Prabhupāda: I was ordered by my spiritual master to do this work, so on his order I came in 1965. That is the beginning of this. I came alone with no help, no money. Somehow or other (laughs) I started. Interviewer: : How did you attract people? You landed in New York... Prabhupāda: My attraction is this chanting. That's all. Interviewer: Did you stand on street corners and chant? Prabhupāda: Yes, I had no magic. Just like others. They say some..., show some magic. I never showed any magic. Interviewer: No, I understand that. *Bali*-mardana: Thompkins Park. Prabhupāda: By Thompkins Park I was chanting, and these boys gradually came. First picture was published by the New York Times. Then we started branches in San Francisco, in Montreal, Boston. And then Los Angeles. In this way... Interviewer: So you just chanted in Thompkins Park, and people came? Prabhupāda: Yes, I was underneath a tree. I think that picture was published by that Voice, very big article, published. Interviewer: What did you have to offer then. If you were chanting in the park and I said "What are you doing? Why are you chanting? What's your thing here?" *Bali*-mardana: He said what did you have to offer. Rāmeśvara: He said, "If someone had come up to you while you were chanting and said, 'Why are you doing this? What are you offering?' How would you have replied." Prabhupāda: They came... Naturally they came and joined me and began to dance, that's all. That is the beginning. Rāmeśvara: But what if they asked you, "What is this all about?" Prabhupāda: No, this is for spiritual realization. If you chant, then, gradually, you realize yourself that you are a spiritual being; you are not this body. Then his spiritual life begins. Actually human life is meant for spiritual realization, and if one does not spiritually realize his identity, then he remains an animal. That is the difference between animal and man. Man is supposed to be spiritually realized. Interviewer: How is that spiritual dimension realized? Prabhupāda: One has to realize that he's not this body, he's spirit soul, and the spirit soul is within the body, and after annihilation of this body, the spirit soul is transferred to another body. So there are 8,400,000 different forms of life. And we have to transmigrate to any one of these forms. So today I am in American body or Indian body, very comfortably situated, but at the time of death my particular mentality will transfer me to a particular type of body. Exactly like if a man infects some contagious disease he has to develop that disease. It is very subtle material laws. So similarly, we are composed of gross body and subtle body. The gross body is made of this earth, water, air, fire, ether, like this. And the subtle body is made of mind, intelligence and ego. And the spirit soul is within that outward gross and subtle bodies. When the gross body is annihilated, the subtle body, mind, carries the soul to a similar body as he was thinking at the time of death. It is, example is given... Just like the flavor of a rose garden is carried by the air or the bad odor of a filthy place is also carried by the air, similarly, mind, intelligence carries me to a particular type of body as I was absorbed in thought at the time of death. Interviewer: What is the ultimate? Prabhupāda: Ultimate is that you are spirit soul, you are being materially engrossed, you are creating different situations and you are being transferred to different bodies. That is different situations. Interviewer: But for what purpose and to what end? What's the final end? Prabhupāda: Yes, so final, that unless you are spiritually realized, you do not know what is the final end. The final end is that we are part and parcel of God. Somehow or other we are in contact with this material atmosphere. So our final aim is to go back to home, back to Godhead. Unless we know this and we practice how to return back again to Godhead, then we have to remain within this material world, transmigrating from one body to another. Therefore the human intelligence is meant for understanding the spiritual identity and the goal of life and act accordingly. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is an educational movement to enlighten the people from gross ignorance to the highest enlightenment of spiritual understanding. Interviewer: Is it an internal educational process or external? Prabhupāda: It is internal but externally... Just like externally, behavior makes internal inclinations. If you associate with some bad company, the internally also you develop bad propensities. And if you associate with good company, then internally you develop good propensities. So internally, externally, they are interrelated. By external behavior we influence our internal energy. And by internal atmosphere we get the external body. Interviewer: I'm trying to find out whether the consciousness lies within us, brought out... Prabhupāda: Yes, consciousness... Consciousness will be... Because... Just like sunshine and the sun. Similarly, the soul means consciousness. It is just like sunshine. The soul is very small particle, but it is shining as consciousness. Interviewer: So we can allow it to fulfill itself or not. *Bali*-mardana: He wants to know, is this consciousness within us. Prabhupāda: Yes. So long the soul is there, the consciousness is there. *Bali*-mardana: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Not Kṛṣṇa cons..., immediately Kṛṣṇa conscious. Consciousness is there. Just like so long the soul is there, you pinch any part of your body*-you'll feel pain. That is consciousness. And when the soul is gone out of the body, If you cut the hand, there will be no consciousness. Rāmeśvara: Did you mean to ask whether the ultimate state of consciousness is within us that has to be brought out? Interviewer: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, consciousness is already there. Rāmeśvara: He meant the dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is that... Prabhupāda: That is original consciousness. Rāmeśvara: So that is within us. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: And it needs to be brought out. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Interviewer: And how is that brought out? Prabhupāda: That is brought out by this process. You have to go under some process. Just like a man can be made unconscious and again conscious under some process. If you... What is called? Rāmeśvara: Anesthesia? Prabhupāda: Anesthetic, he becomes unconscious. Then, another process, we can bring him to conscious. Interviewer: All right, let me ask a rather long question. Let's assume that all human beings have an innate ability to speak, and depending upon the circumstances they find themselves in when they are very small, they will learn Sanskrit, they will learn English, they will learn French, they will learn Chinese. What... Now, if I were Chinese, I would say, "Well Chinese is the best language." I would have a, you know... I could take a different mode on what's the best way to communicate. Prabhupāda: No, Chinese... Interviewer: Now, in terms of your movement, you're bringing out consciousness, which I would analogize... Prabhupāda: No, I say... Interviewer: To the ability to speak. Now, how is your path or your way different from (or) better than others? Prabhupāda: No, but there is no question of "better than others." It is the only thing. Interviewer: It is the only way? Prabhupāda: Only thing. It is not the question of better or superior. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness means God consciousness. So either you are Chinese or English or American, there is consciousness. When that consciousness is purified, that is God consciousness. Interviewer: Yes. But is your way the only way? Prabhupāda: No, that is only way. Because God is one and God consciousness is one, so when you are Chinese consciousness, that is foreign. Or either American consciousness, it is foreign. Interviewer: Okay, I was speaking in an analogical way. There are different way to express oneself or different languages one can learn. Similarly, I would think there would be different ways to get to consciousness. Prabhupāda: Different ways may be, but if you actually come to that consciousness, that different way is approved. Otherwise it is bogus. Interviewer: . Other way? Prabhupāda: It is bogus. Rāmeśvara: You judge by the results. Prabhupāda: If you come to God consciousness, either through the Christian process or Chinese process or Indian process, it doesn't matter. But if you do not come to God consciousness, then it is all bogus. Interviewer: But you can come to God consciousness through a variety of paths. *Bali*-mardana: He's saying that. He's saying "if." Rāmeśvara: He says, "But you can come to God consciousness by different processes." Prabhupāda: No, different processes... Our... *Bali*-mardana: Can do. Prabhupāda: No, it is not that. The aim is to come to the God consciousness. And the means may be different. So that means is justified by the end. If at the end, you do not come to God consciousness, then whatever process you have, that is bogus. That is not bona fide. Interviewer: You say it works? Prabhupāda: If it works, it is bona fide. If it does not work, then it is bogus. Interviewer: And to your mind is it possible to come to God consciousness through other means than yours? Prabhupāda: I say if it is possible, then it is all right. Interviewer: Is it possible? Prabhupāda: Yes, if it is possible. Interviewer: Is it, though? (laughter) Rāmeśvara: That you have to see. Prabhupāda: No, thing is that... Hari-śauri: That you have to see. You have to judge whether you are going to get that result. Prabhupāda: Yes. People... Whether he is coming to God consciousness or dog consciousness, two things are there. Consciousness means when he understands that "I am part and parcel of God. I am servant of God." Then it is all right. But if he is thinking that "I am servant of dog," then it is not proper way. Interviewer: Your movement has been criticized. Prabhupāda: Well, how it is criticized? How it is criticized? Interviewer: People have said that it works against the family, it works against Western society, that you... Prabhupāda: No, here is a family man. Interviewer: Hm? Prabhupāda: Here is a family man. Interviewer: I'm sorry. Hari-śauri: Here is a family man. Prabhupāda: Here is a family man. How you say it is against family? There are so many families here, children. You have seen our class in the morning? Interviewer: No, I have not. Prabhupāda: All family members, children, husband, wife, they are present there. How do you say it is against family? Wrong criticism. This is... Interviewer: Are your followers encouraged to visit with their... Prabhupāda: No, first of all you take your answer one by one. You say, "against the family." It is a wrong. It is a wrong propaganda. Oh, there are so many families in our society. It is a society. There are family members. There are brahmacārīs. There are sannyāsīs and vānaprastha. Whatever situation is suitable for you, you can accept, and in any situation, you can become God conscious. That's a wrong propaganda, that we are against family. Here is a wife of a boy. They have family. There are so many families. Why do you say like that, "We are against family? It's a wrong. You should note it especially that this type of criticism is envious. It is not proper. We invite all families, children, husband, wife, "Come on. Take Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Interviewer: I've been accosted at airports, on streets, places like that by devotees, and I've been told that you operate drug centers and a number of other things. Prabhupāda: Drug centers? Rāmeśvara: He means we're curing people. Places where people will become cured from the bad habit of taking drugs. That's a drug center. Prabhupāda: Yes. But our people are all free from all that drug disease. Rāmeśvara: He is saying that he has simply met devotees at airports and other places where they approach him to maybe ask for some contribution, to see if he's interested, and they say that they are representing some drug center, something like that. So what's the question? Interviewer: Well, and they think how to sell literature and... Is that the way to God consciousness, by selling and soliciting? Is that...? Prabhupāda: No, no, if you are... Interviewer: How does that fit in? Prabhupāda: If you are God conscious, naturally you give up all intoxication habit. Interviewer: Yeah, but just going out and selling and accosting people on the street... Hari-śauri: He's asking how does our saṅkīrtana activities relate to God consciousness, the selling of books and collecting of donations. Prabhupāda: So if I sell a book to you, you read because you have paid for. Then you'll get benefit. Interviewer: How does it benefit the seller? Prabhupāda: Hm? Interviewer: How does it benefit the person who works on the selling... Prabhupāda: Unless you purchase, how you'll get reading? *Bali*-mardana: How does it benefit the person who is selling the book, the devotee. Prabhupāda: Oh, devotee. Rāmeśvara: How is he benefited by selling books to others? Prabhupāda: But he... He is giving service to Kṛṣṇa. He's not charging anything. If we appoint some bookseller, you have to pay, but we haven't got to pay. Out of his love for Kṛṣṇa he's doing that. Rāmeśvara: See, our men who distribute these books, they do not receive salary. *Bali*-mardana: It's like welfare work. Prabhupāda: That is the sign of love. That is in material field also. There are so many philosophers, scientists and artists, they have done out of love for their subject matter, not for payment. That is love. *Bali*-mardana: But aren't they also purified spiritually by doing this? Prabhupāda: Yes. This spiritual realization means the more you give service to God, you become spiritually profited, in any way. Interviewer: What are some of the other, aside from...? I mean, I see people selling things. What other practices are involved? Prabhupāda: Then you stay one day, whole day and night, and see practically, from morning four o'clock to night ten o'clock, how we are engaged in different practices. Interviewer: You rise at four? *Hari-śauri: Three*-thirty. *Rāmeśvara: In this temple three, three*-thirty. Interviewer: And chant. Rāmeśvara: Chant, study. Prabhupāda: You go any room of this house. You'll find simply Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Rāmeśvara: Preparing for the morning services. Prabhupāda: That you can describe, the whole day's program. Interviewer: What's the purpose of that rising? What's the purpose of that, the rising at 4:30, the chanting and study? Prabhupāda: It means to be fixed up in (indistinct) spiritual life. Just like in military there is training. You must have to do at this time this thing, this time, this time... So any training means regulated life. Interviewer: What is the most important part of it? Prabhupāda: The most important part is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Interviewer: Yes, what's the most important practice. Prabhupāda: Practice, yes. This is practice. *Bali*-mardana: Which devotional practice...? Rāmeśvara: He is asking whether one technique is more important than another. Prabhupāda: Everything is important. Everything is important. You cannot say, "This is most important; this is less important." Everything is important. Rāmeśvara: But suppose someone cannot live in our temple. Then we may recommend to him at least chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in your home... Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: And take Kṛṣṇa prasādam and read the books. Prabhupāda: And follow the regulative principles. Rāmeśvara: And follow as far as possible... Prabhupāda: Refrain from sinful life. What are the sinful life? *Bali*-mardana: No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating, and no intoxication. Rāmeśvara: We find that these activities disturb the body and the mind. They are not compatible or conducive for spiritual practices. Prabhupāda: Just like a diseased man. If he wants to be cured, there are something, prohibition, "Don't do this. Don't eat this." So it is also curing the diseased mind and to bring him in the spiritual platform. So there are something "Do's," something "do not." That's all. That is everywhere. Interviewer: You came here ten years ago, or eleven years ago. You were almost seventy at the time... Prabhupāda: : Yes, actually I came here at the age of seventy years. Interviewer: What had you been doing previously? *Prabhupāda: Previously? I was family man. I retired in 1954. My Guru Mahārāja asked me to take this task seriously when I was twenty*-five years old. Interviewer: Who asked you? *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-five years old. Rāmeśvara: His spiritual master. *Prabhupāda: So I was at that time family man, so I thought, "Let me adjust my family affairs. Then I shall take it." So by doing the adjustment it took me long years. So I retired at the age of fifty*-eight. Then I took up seriously. And when I was seventy years old, then I came here. Interviewer: Were you a businessman? Prabhupāda: Yes, I was connected with some chemical industry. I was manager in a big chemical industry. Then I started my own business. In this way I was family man. Rāmeśvara: But at the same time, Śrīla Prabhupāda was always Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: And He was writing. Rāmeśvara: And also he was writing transcendental or spiritual books even at that time. *Bali*-mardana: 1944. Rāmeśvara: It's not that he has adopted a new occupation now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: He has always been Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: This Back to Godhead was started in 1944, when I was still a family man. Interviewer: You started that in India. Prabhupāda: India. The first copy is here, some copy? Hari-śauri: The first copy is in the Library of Congress in Washington. Interviewer: Your family, your blood family, are they Kṛṣṇa conscious as well? Prabhupāda: Not very much. Therefore I had to leave them and create another family. (laughter) Interviewer: How many children do you have. Prabhupāda: I have got two daughters and two sons. My wife is also still living. Interviewer: Is she Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: Not very much. Naturally women are after worldly opulence. Interviewer: Was it difficult for you to give up what you had been doing in order to devote full time. *Prabhupāda: No, it is the Vedic system that at a certain age they should give up family connection and completely devote for God consciousness. In the beginning, twenty*-five years, he should learn from guru about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then, if he is able, he does not become a family man, but if he is unable or circumstantially, he may become a family man. So he can remain a family man up to fiftieth year and then he retires from family life. He travels in holy places with his wife, and sometimes he comes home and sometimes he goes home. In this way, when he's practiced to give up family attachment, then the wife goes back home to the care of her elderly children, and the man takes sannyāsa, and he remains alone simply for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is Vedic system. Rāmeśvara: Vedic system means very traditional, from ancient India. Interviewer: Yes. Now, you are not practicing the Vedic system, then, here, are you? Or are you? Rāmeśvara: We are following. Prabhupāda: No, it is all Vedic system. It is Vedic system. Interviewer: Is it better to do it the way you did it or to start from a very early age in the, er...? Rāmeśvara: In other words, some of our members are sannyāsa at an earlier age. *Prabhupāda: No, if... The purpose is to train a person in brahmacārī, not to enter into the entanglement of this material life. That is Vedic system. Basic principle is that don't be entangled with this material energy. So at the early age, up to twenty*-five, he's trained up. If he can, he can continue as brahmacārī. He directly can take sannyāsa. But if he's unable, so let him go by step by step. Let him become a family, householder life, then retired life, then... But sannyāsa at the end, that is compulsory, not that unless he is shot down by somebody, he's not going to give up family life. That is not Vedic system. Interviewer: But young men don't tend to be wise, do they? Prabhupāda: Eh? Interviewer: Young men do not generally possess a great deal of wisdom. *Prabhupāda: No, if he's trained up. Just like here we have got so many young men. They are trained up. So there is no prohibition that a young man cannot become a sannyāsa. If he's able, he can take sannyāsa from the very beginning. But if he's not able, let him enter into household life and then remain as householder up to fiftieth year, then retire, then take sannyāsa. It is not an enforcement. A gradual process. But the ultimate end is to become free from all material attachment and completely devote life for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the ultimate end. Because human life is meant for that purpose, self*-realization or spiritual realization, that opportunity must be given to all human beings. Unfortunately at the present moment the civilization has no scope for spiritual realization. They live like other animals, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That's all. They do not know there is another life, spiritual life, and neither there is any education or institution to educate them. Now we are trying for that purpose. Interviewer: How important is it to look after physical life? Prabhupāda: Physical life, so you must keep yourself fit to execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not our desire that you become sick and you cannot chant. But our purpose is to chant and we require the physical necessities just to keep ourselves fit, not more than that. Eating is necessary. Without eating, I will die. So we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, not in the restaurant or hotel anything, no. We take nice vegetables, nice food grains, rice, wheat, sugar, milk, all vitaminous, full of vitamins. So there is no deficiency of food. Even from food value it is very nice. We do not unnecessarily kill animals. Interviewer: You run farms as well, do you not? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Interviewer: What do they... Prabhupāda: So you try to... Interviewer: Are they working farms, producing farms? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many farms in your country. Just now I am coming from New Vrindāban in West Virginia. They are living. If you go sometime, you can see how independently they are living. And there are other farms, New Orleans, and just now we are going tomorrow... Rāmeśvara: Pennsylvania. Prabhupāda: Pennsylvania. So we get enough milk, enough food grains, enough fruits. So there is no economic problem. Our purpose is to save time from unnecessary necessities of life, from unnecessary necessities of life, to save time and utilize the time for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so far the body is concerned, as much as it is required take and maintain the body. That's all. Interviewer: Your devotees' health is looked after, then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: By who? Prabhupāda: They are instructed in that way, plain living, high thinking. Interviewer: Do you have arrangements with hospitals in case somebody gets sick, and do you watch diet carefully and...? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not? Why not? Take care of the body. But we keep our habits in such a way that we don't fall sick very often. Interviewer: You said before that with respect to achieving Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that the end was most important, that becoming God conscious... Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: ...Was the most important thing. Would that ever allow you to or any one of the devotees, to engage in practices that would be considered unjust or criminal in a broader society? Prabhupāda: That is his interest. Interviewer: In terms of, you know, "This is for Kṛṣṇa. This is for developing God consciousness..." Prabhupāda: No, if you are interested in Kṛṣṇa, you are interested for everyone. And if you are interested for a particular person, society, then you are not interested in Kṛṣṇa. The example I can give you. Just like if you supply food to your stomach, then you supply food to your eyes, ears, hands, legs, everything. But if you supply food to your eyes, then you become blind. *Bali*-mardana: He wants to know that would you be justified in doing something that society would consider criminal, like, say... Rāmeśvara: Like stealing for Kṛṣṇa, or killing for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Killing? Rāmeśvara: If it is... Something that is judged by, say, the US government as criminal, would be still do it if it was for Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: No, we do not do anything which is harmful to the society. We do not do anything, not only to the human society. To the animal society, to the tree society, to the aquatic society, we do not do anything. We do not support the slaughterhouse, killing the animals. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to see every living entity on the same level. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. We are not cruel to anyone. Either he's a man or animal or tree or bird. Interviewer: Does that take on a positive aspect as well so that by not only do I not kill animals and I don't kill men, do I, am I obliged under your system, am I obliged to actively help... Prabhupāda: Yes, suppose if you are coming to kill me, then I must take advantage of killing you first. Interviewer: I understand that, and obliged to go beyond. *Bali*-mardana: Are you also obliged to help animals, to help other human beings. Prabhupāda: Yes, we are maintaining animals, giving them food, giving them security of life in all our farms the animals are very free. Rāmeśvara: We're obliged because they are all part and parcel of God. Interviewer: And what about with people? Prabhupāda: Every people. You come to stay with us, we give you all help. Anyone who comes to our society we give shelter, we give food, we give instruction, we give dress, everything. Without any condition. You please come and live with us. For such a nice building we have taken. Our farms are so nice, you can go and see how they are doing. We have got one hundred and two centers all over the world. You'll find they are living very comfortably. Interviewer: How many centers in the United States? Prabhupāda: About forty. Rāmeśvara: Forty or fifty. Hari-śauri: Fifty with the farms. Interviewer: How are those supported? Do they support themselves? Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Interviewer: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Interviewer: The way they support themselves? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa supports. Interviewer: Kṛṣṇa supports? Prabhupāda: Yes. We do not know what we shall eat tomorrow, but we have no insufficiency. Rather, neighbors they are grudging that these people do not do anything and they live so comfortably. Sometimes they ask... Interviewer: How does Kṛṣṇa support them? Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Interviewer: He mediates through physical things, does he? Prabhupāda: Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: Yes. Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is within you. So if Kṛṣṇa dictates, "Give him three thousand dollars," you'll give me. That's all. That actually it is fact. Yesterday Mr. Coleman came? He gave me a check for three thousand. I never asked him. *Bali*-mardana: Who? Mr. Coleman? Hari-śauri: Coleman. *Prabhupāda: So we are immediately depositing for our Vṛndāvana and Māyāpura scheme. So Kṛṣṇa sends money. We do not bother what will happen tomorrow. But we are very nicely maintained by Kṛṣṇa's grace. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And Kṛṣṇa says teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Find out this verse. Interviewer: A question: you are now the leader and the spiritual master. Who will take your place? Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa will dictate who will take my place. Interviewer: Kṛṣṇa will tell you that? Hari-śauri: You want that verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Hari-śauri: This is the translation of what the Sanskrit... Prabhupāda: No, you can read the Sanskrit also. Hari-śauri: *"But those who worship Me with devotion, meditating on My transcendental form*-to them I carry what they lack and preserve what they have." Interviewer: They still have to go out and ask occasionally? *Bali*-mardana: It's not that we sit back and wait for Kṛṣṇa to send it to us. Rāmeśvara: No, we're very industrious. Prabhupāda: We don't sit down idly. *Bali*-mardana: God helps those who help themselves. Prabhupāda: We are not idle preachers, we are working. All, very hard, more than the karmīs. Rāmeśvara: These men, they go out to engage people in taking our books maybe twelve hours a day sometimes, ten hours a day, without any salary. *Prabhupāda: I am now eighty years old, I am working twenty*-four hours. I think I work more than my young disciples (laughter). *Bali*-mardana: Oh yes, definitely. Prabhupāda: I work at night. Rāmeśvara: It is hard to keep up with Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hari-śauri: Very difficult. Prabhupāda: We are not idle creatures. Rāmeśvara: We are publishing his books and sometimes he is ahead of us by seventeen volumes. Interviewer: How do you spend your days? You do an awful lot of traveling I understand. Prabhupāda: Traveling is going on throughout the whole world and wherever I go, at night I write books. *Bali*-mardana: Translates. Prabhupāda: Translate. And daytime I meet devotees. *Bali*-mardana: Manage. Prabhupāda: Manage. Interviewer: You arrange the marriages? *Bali*-mardana: Manage. Prabhupāda: They have to ask me, final decision is taken from me. From all over the world, from all over the world letters are coming some problem, some problem, some problem. Although I have got about twenty secretaries, still they have to consult, I have to give them advice. *Hari-śauri: In the evening Śrīla Prabhupāda goes to bed at ten o'clock and gets up at eleven*-thirty to begin translating. Interviewer: You just sleep a couple of hours, then? Prabhupāda: No, one and a half hour. Interviewer: That's it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Of course in daytime I take rest two hours. So in this way altogether about three to four hours. Our philosophy is not that you sit idly and God will send everything, no, not like that. We know God will send everything, still we work. Without God's sanction nothing can come. But we must be qualified to receive the favor of God. That is our philosophy. Interviewer: Are you surprised at the way this organization has prospered? Prabhupāda: What do you mean? Hari-śauri: Are we surprised at the way the movement has expanded and prospered in just a few short years. *Prabhupāda: No, it is not surprising, it is natural. If you do, just like if you do business in proper way there will be profit. Similarly, as it is enjoined in this book of knowledge, if you do like that it will expand, it will prosper. Two plus two equal to four. Mathematical calculation. If you make two plus two, it will become four. It will neither become three nor five. So here it is said, you have read the, that "One who is engaged twenty*-four hours in My service, so I, yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham [Bg. 9.22], I supply whatever he requires and I protect whatever he has got." So if you actually serve Kṛṣṇa, then everything you want, it will come. Rāmeśvara: Do you have any questions about our festival coming up this Sunday? You know we're marching down Fifth Avenue. Interviewer: Are you going to march? *Rāmeśvara: He asks if you are going to participate in the Ratha*-yātrā Parade. Hari-śauri: This is the parade that it's based on. Rāmeśvara: This is a photograph of what takes place in India every year. It's a traditional festival in India, we are bringing it to New York. We've got our permits and everything. Prabhupāda: We have already got in San Francisco, in Chicago... Rāmeśvara: Philadelphia. Prabhupāda: In Philadelphia. Rāmeśvara: In London. Prabhupāda: London. Sudāmā: Melbourne. Prabhupāda: Melbourne. Hari-śauri: Paris we're beginning also. Prabhupāda: This year? Hari-śauri: Yes. Rāmeśvara: First year Paris. Hari-śauri: This is our festivals that we've begun in the West based on the one on the front there. Prabhupāda: You can take that book. Interviewer: You are participating in it, are you not? Prabhupāda: Somewhere when I have opportunity I participate, otherwise they do it. Rāmeśvara: In other words, Prabhupāda doesn't attend every festival all over the world. Interviewer: Will you attend the one here in New York? Prabhupāda: Yes, I go. Interviewer: How do you choose, you are responsible for the organization. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Are you the one who chooses who runs each center, who is responsible in each temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. Our program is to open centers in every village, every town, to propagate Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Interviewer: And you choose the leaders, or Kṛṣṇa does and tells you, how does that work? Prabhupāda: No, I have been chosen by my spiritual master. Interviewer: Yes. And you in turn choose others? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. That is our succession. Interviewer: On what basis? Prabhupāda: Basis, on the order of Kṛṣṇa. Originally the order is from Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: How does that come? Prabhupāda: Comes by disciplic succession. Just like Kṛṣṇa said this knowledge to Arjuna and Arjuna said to others and it is open. Everyone can take it, there is no secrecy. We have to accept only, that's all. Interviewer: I missed that, I'm sorry. Prabhupāda: The order is already there, it is open, open secret. There is no secrecy. Anyone can take it. Interviewer: All right. But in terms of specific, say, choosing, specific things, specific details. *Prabhupāda: Yes, in all details, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is all details in this book, Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Hari-śauri: So he's asking what's a man's qualification to be chosen. Rāmeśvara: In other words Prabhupāda will decide who should be leader if he's qualified and there's a process for making him qualified and there's a process for testing to see if he is qualified. So in that way it all comes from Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: You chose, for example, these fellows here to run the publishing house and be responsible for the east coast. Prabhupāda: Yes, like that. He's in charge of publication, he's in charge something else, he's charge, like that. Interviewer: On what basis, though, can you tell me some of the things that... Prabhupāda: Basis, just to see whether he's qualified, that's all. Just like ordinarily one manager is appointed by the superior authority on the merit, on his qualification. That's all. Interviewer: Okay, is it a mediated choice or is it a direct communication from Kṛṣṇa, that's my question. Prabhupāda: No. Rāmeśvara: He's asking whether we claim that God speaks to us directly. Prabhupāda: Yes, God speaks to you when you are qualified. You cannot expect God as order supplier. When he sees that you are qualified, he will speak to you. *Bali*-mardana: The spiritual master is the representative of God to the disciple because he is in direct contact with God. Prabhupāda: My spiritual master appointed me that "You do this." Similarly I shall appoint somebody else, this is the way. Rāmeśvara: It's difficult for people to understand that God can speak to a man. They question, "How can God speak to some man?" Prabhupāda: That is, anything, that, the radio message is coming, a foolish man cannot understand how it is coming. He'll think "How it is that, speaking?" So any foolish man will be astonished how things are happening. That is foolishness. But God says, find out this verse... Hari-śauri: Four three? Sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya [Bg. 4.3]? *Prabhupāda: Huh? No no. Buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te. *Rāmeśvara: Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānām [Bg. 10.10]. *Prabhupāda: Ah, teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam [Bg. 10.10]. *Hari-śauri: Dadāmi buddhi*-yogaṁ taṁ yena mām upayānti te. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Hari-śauri: "To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give them the understanding by which they can come to Me." Prabhupāda: God is situated in everyone's heart. As soon as He sees that "Here is a qualified person," then He gives him instruction. Interviewer: But in the same way that Kṛṣṇa says He'll provide for your needs you still must work to achieve whatever Kṛṣṇa is giving you. Prabhupāda: Yes. You work for Kṛṣṇa. You have to work to get your necessities. Interviewer: In the same way I'm curious with respect to the way Kṛṣṇa communicates with you, whether it's in a similar kind of way that He gives you your necessities. *Bali*-mardana: In other words, when you decide that someone is to be in charge of a particular temple does Kṛṣṇa tell you that this person should be in charge. Interviewer: Or do you by judging him say this person is qualified. Prabhupāda: Yes, because a devotee always consults Kṛṣṇa and He gives order. Interviewer: It's a more direct communication. Prabhupāda: Yes. And He gives order. Rāmeśvara: Because intelligence, our philosophy is that intelligence comes from Kṛṣṇa. So if I have some... Interviewer: And your philosophy is that your daily necessities come from Kṛṣṇa as well. Rāmeśvara: Yes, try to understand. Suppose my intelligence sees that this person is qualified, that means Kṛṣṇa has told me. Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily, Kṛṣṇa will tell directly. A devotee always consults Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa tells him, "Do like this." Not figuratively. Interviewer: Does that apply then to other kinds of decisions and other kinds of activities as well? Prabhupāda: Everything. Because a devotee does not do anything without consulting Kṛṣṇa. *Bali*-mardana: But that applies to a very greatly elevated soul, that is not an ordinary person. *Prabhupāda: That is, therefore the minor devotees, they consult the spiritual master. That is our process. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. Rāmeśvara: I see, I was trying to explain the minor devotees. Interviewer: No, I was talking about... Rāmeśvara: You're talking about the topmost level. Interviewer: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: He's getting right to the source.(laughter) Right to the top. Interviewer: That will do it for me, I thank you, kindly. *Bali*-mardana: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Give him prasādam. *Bali*-mardana: We were going to take care of him. Hari-śauri: ...prasādam. Prabhupāda: Thank you for your coming. Take this flower. (end) *Morning Walk-*-July 14, 1976, New York Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...demon came here to try and make Rāmeśvara leave with him. Devotee: Tried to take him home. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A big demon. Prabhupāda: In order to kidnap? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, his father arranged it. Devotee: His father sent him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A very big demon. And Rāmeśvara preached to him, and what happened? Rāmeśvara: We made him very embarrassed by preaching to him, he felt very insignificant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rāmeśvara Mahārāja called him a jackass (laughter) and many other things. Prabhupāda: So how he was trying to kidnap you? Rāmeśvara: Yes, and we tried to prove to him that he was afraid of death and we are not. We are better situated. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda wants to know how did he actually try to kidnap you by telling you, or by his philosophy. Rāmeśvara: He was trying to convince me that the goal of life is sex life. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. That is the material world. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's one of our buses, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the bus that will take you to the farm. *Prabhupāda: Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. That is already mentioned. Unless one understands that there is another life, sex life is the only pleasure. That will keep him perpetually conditioned. Rāmeśvara: He also tried to say that our movement will never be accepted, it is a waste of time. Why are we trying. We'll never be accepted by the public. Prabhupāda: And why you have accepted? Rāmeśvara: We said that, why have so many Americans now given up voluntarily, from wealthy families they have given up so many material things. But then he said "But you haven't given up material things. Just look at this building, just see how opulent, how can you claim you have given up. Prabhupāda: : So what do you mean by...? We shall live in the sky? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Flower in the sky. Prabhupāda: You shall live in the building and we shall live in the sky, in the air? You mean to say like that? Rāmeśvara: We told him that this building is actually for rascals like you. To try to inspire you a little bit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were calling him directly rascal and fool. He was calling him a rascal directly. Rāmeśvara: We also showed him that our movement is being accepted, in different ways. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yesterday we spoke to Gurukṛpā and he's having, some of his men were deported. Devotee: From where? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Japan. Prabhupāda: Again. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So his collection is not going to be as..., he wanted to do two hundred thousand dollars this month but he says it won't be possible. Prabhupāda: Why deported? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, because they are Hare Kṛṣṇas. There's one man, he says, in Osaka that's a big demon, one policeman who simply makes his business to try and find out the devotees. So that one man arrested three of them in one day. Anyway he's just taking another thirty*-five thousand out and he's immediately transferring today ten thousand to Gargamuni and he's arranging a bank account jointly with Rāmeśvara in Los Angeles for his other money. Rāmeśvara will put the money in fixed deposit and monthly transfer ten thousand dollars for construction. Gurukṛpā was happy to know that the money could be used for that. He says he's studying, chanting and working very hard. Prabhupāda: They are trying to drive us away. How to counteract it? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we have to do some positive, very subtle positive preaching. I suggested that-if you recall*-I suggested that a cultural center should be opened there on the basis of showing dolls, showing movies, restaurant, Prabhupāda: Books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Books. Prabhupāda: Literature. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But very vague. Rāmeśvara: He's printing Japanese *Gītā* this year he says. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But very vague, not dressed as devotees, strictly cultural. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cultural. They should... Deity worship one of the items. Otherwise it is called bhāgavata and pañcarātra. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I felt that it should be done in a very modern American style but very cultural with Vedic subject matter. Then gradually they would appreciate it. As well as the library party. If the library party, Satsvarūpa is thinking to go all over the world now, if they go to Japan they are expecting a good reception in Japan, that will be another advantage if your books are accepted by the professors there. I thought that a cultural presentation... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We have to somehow or another get the local people to join there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well that's the way, see they're not going to join as Hare Kṛṣṇas because of the bad publicity. They're not going to join like that. You have to have a different method. Prabhupāda: What is this church, big church. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurudāsa also called. Rāmeśvara: Lutheran Church. Prabhupāda: Where he is now? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's in Detroit. He told me to book his ticket to London on the same flight that you were going on. Prabhupāda: I came here in the evening, with umbrella and in the morning I saw the whole street is white. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: White*-washed, you thought it was white-washed? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From the snow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: : He thought that someone had poured white wash. *Prabhupāda: When I first saw from the window that the street was all white, "How is that? One white*-washed?" (laughter) Then when I saw in the street, "Oh!" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You never saw snow. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in the Himalayas? Prabhupāda: I saw in Kashmir, but that was not so white. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: From a distance? Prabhupāda: No, on the street also, but not so white. That is ice, not snow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh yes. Here it's snow. Prabhupāda: This is Eighth Avenue? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No this is Central Park West. I used to live on this street. I was living here, Eighty*-first Street and Columbus. Prabhupāda: These are apartment buildings? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh yes, all residential. Very big, actually they are very first*-class residential apartments. The ceilings are very high in every one of them, fifteen, twenty-foot ceilings. Nowadays the ceilings are usually only... Prabhupāda: Ten feet. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At most. Prabhupāda: Otherwise nine feet. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The best ceilings I've seen is in Calcutta in our place in Calcutta, very high. *Prabhupāda: Calcutta, all aristocratic buildings, they are made according to English pattern, London pattern. Just like our temple, it is made London pattern. It was designed by one high*-court judge. (pause) The land acquisition at Māyāpura, no news? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No news. [break] ...who are building the Ratha*-yātrā carts and who help in the temple construction? [break] Prabhupāda: Ah, this is so cold. (laughter) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unbearable [break] ...too cold then we can go in our bus to Florida for preaching. In the winter you go to Florida, eighty*-five, ninety degrees. Prabhupāda: Florida. And in summer? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Summer it's not very pleasant. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's about the same. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Most people though, most tourists don't go to Florida in the summer time. Prabhupāda: Very hot? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is a little hot. Prabhupāda: Some rain? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's moisture in the air and rain, like that. Hari-śauri: They have a lot of hurricanes there, don't they? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A few. But no place is perfect within the material world. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On the fourth floor we're going to have doll projects. Doll exhibits. So there's an open balcony up there and I want to do something like that, see up there with the glass, the balcony? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I want to do that. Because there's an open balcony right on the street side, enclose it with glass, it would be very popular. After going to see the doll exhibits people can sit there comfortably take, you know, rest on the bench. And it can be seen from outside so it will be indirectly an advertisement. You'll see that there are people sitting there. [break] *Rāmeśvara: ...artists that work on your books, they have to train many devotees to paint because one day in all the government buildings there will be paintings of Kṛṣṇa. Just like now they have all these paintings of so*-called... Prabhupāda: If they are selling, you can sell these pictures. Rāmeśvara: I think they will sell. [break] ...popular is that at colleges they like to have art shows come where they display the paintings and then they move on to another college. So we can do that with some of our art paintings also. They will give us one hall just to hang the paintings for some time. Prabhupāda: So many trees have come. [break] ...from stone there is grass. Rāmeśvara: They have no explanation for this. No one ever asks these questions, Śrīla Prabhupāda, why the grass is coming out of stone. Prabhupāda: No. Our point is why even in moon planet there is stone only, and... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No living entities. Prabhupāda: ...no living entities? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No life. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say there is no air. Hari-śauri: It's due to atmosphere, that's their reasoning. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say stone can be in both places but life, living entities cannot. *Bali*-mardana: They classify organic and inorganic. Prabhupāda: They may talk all rubbish, foolish things, we don't believe it. Rāmeśvara: They say that on a planet like Jupiter the atmosphere is full of methane which is poisonous, so no life can live there. Prabhupāda: Only here. Rāmeśvara: Only here. (laughter) Devotee: ...Pacific Ocean one volcano came up and it formed an island and within five years there was grass growing on it. So they tried to say that the seeds of the grass floated in the ocean and reached the island and began to grow. They couldn't explain how it became vegetated so quickly. Prabhupāda: So why the seeds does not go by air to the other planets? Rāmeśvara: When they first developed the radio, they set up a system to send out radio messages into outer space. And their idea was that if there was any intelligence on other planets they would answer by sending... Prabhupāda: So whether your radio message reach there? Hari-śauri: We should wait, Śrīla Prabhupāda, a minute, because police over there, they may object if we walk. [break] Prabhupāda: ...only in America (laughter). All intelligence monopolized by America. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sounds like the old British policy. Prabhupāda: Foolish policy. Just like the deaf man, he thinks everyone is deaf. You know that? This is psychology. Deaf man will think that everyone is deaf. Broadcast radio message in the Pacific Ocean, the aquatics they do not reply, that means there is no life? Rascal theory. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, maybe they speak a different language. Devotee: They don't understand that there may be different mediums of communication. Rāmeśvara: The government announces to the public that so much money from the taxes has to be spent on this space exploration. But according to the information that you're giving us it is not possible for them to be spending so much money to photograph Phoenix so they must be stealing the money. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned that in previous ages when there was yajña taking place on this planet, sometimes the demigods would come down. So that means that is it possible that they would be communicating with the people of this planet? Prabhupāda: Hm. They're speaking Sanskrit language. In all other planets they are speaking Sanskrit. *Hari-śauri: You also said they had the ability to make themselves visible or invisible to the population. Actually, they have many sightings of what they call UFO's, so*-called spaceships and things like this, or things that they cannot explain but the government doesn't release the information because they think that people will panic. Sometimes aircraft pilots, they've reported that their aircrafts are being inspected while they're up in the air. Prabhupāda: Inspection? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Who inspects? Hari-śauri: Well they don't know who. But there's all kinds of things that they can't explain, but they don't release the information. What the scientists can't explain they won't tell anyone. Rāmeśvara: After they claimed they have landed on the moon they announced that they wanted to build a gigantic dome on the moon's surface and within the dome they would have these pumps pumping air and in that way earth people could go to the moon and live there. Prabhupāda: So what happened to their project? Stopped now? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're going to do it on Mars instead. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're going to do it on Mars instead. [break] Rāmeśvara: ...do it on the moon because they want to have people go there to drill into the surface of the moon to see if there are any valuable minerals or jewels underneath the surface. (pause) [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is a modern sculpture. Passerby: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Passerby: Jaya! (laughter) Prabhupāda: He says jaya also. Devotees: Yes. Hari-śauri: This is the kind of artwork that they're putting up everywhere now (bangs on the sculpture). Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hollow. Called the formless form. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. Devotee: That's supposed to be pleasing to the eye, it's supposed to bring pleasant thoughts into the mind. (laughter) It simply makes them crazy. Rāmeśvara: It's like the "emperor's new clothes." Everyone thinks it is pleasing because the leaders or the artists say it is pleasing. Everyone is being fooled. And if they say it is meaningless then they are called a fool. Prabhupāda: In Bengali it is called pare mukhe jhalma(?). Somebody says "Oh, it is very hot!" "Oh, it is very hot!" (laughter) He did not taste, but the other man says "Oh, it is very hot!" So he says "Oh, it is very hot!" Pare mukhe jhalma. Rāmeśvara: The city pays these artists hundreds of thousands of dollars to make these forms. [break] Prabhupāda: ...it is constructed? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Metropolitan Museum of Art extension. Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can return back now. This one is older, this is new. There are twice as many floors in the same amount of space. It's actually double. [break] ...think there's an advancement in living conditions. Seems to be worsening, but they're taking it as advancement. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: About the same as Mercedes. Ten thousand. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nandaki, is it as good mechanically as a Mercedes? Devotee: No, I don't think so. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mercedes is very sturdy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The comfort's better. Devotee: But after two years this all becomes finished, all this. Starts falling apart. Prabhupāda: But Mercedes is strong. (indistinct) Devotee: No, Mercedes is strong. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very long lasting. (pause) But Mercedes they say it's supposed to last about two hundred thousand kilometers. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The engine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Europe most of the taxi drivers use Mercedes because they are so long lasting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the engine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And the body also lasts. Good quality. Devotee: You see them ten years old, still running. [break] *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...telling you that the Māyāpura time, the Rāma*-navamī comes in April, Gaura-pūrṇimā is in March, it will take a total of six weeks. This year our saṅkīrtana book distribution was set back severely on account of the over-long duration of the festival and all of the devotees and GBC men wanted that it should be about three weeks. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the problem is that Gopāla Kṛṣṇa is saying that he wants all of the devotees to stay there for the opening of the Bombay temple. Prabhupāda: Not necessary. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not necessary. Because there is at least, there would be still about a hundred, hundred*-fifty devotees there anyway. Prabhupāda: Some of them. They can go sometime later. Rāmeśvara: Or the next year. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Some batches may go this year, some batches may go... *Rāmeśvara: The following year, Gaura*-pūrṇimā festival there can be a pandal program in Bombay. Then they can visit it the next year. The main point is we don't have to be there for the opening. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As you recall perhaps, in Māyāpura, we discussed that we would like to go in Vṛndāvana first and end the festival in Māyāpura on Gaura*-pūrṇimā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That way we'll get the cooler weather and we'll get the best preaching in America. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...so dismantled and constructed this building. When I was ten years before, they were dismantled. Very nice building. Just to change the fashion, they spend so much. [break] ...walking generally this. [break] ...producing company? *Devotee: Yes, Metro*-Goldwyn-Mayer. MGM. Prabhupāda: And this is Rockefeller Center? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda. Rāmeśvara: Now they have designed these buildings so that many of them have fountains and big courtyards and you can walk from one street to the other by going through the center of the building. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Rāmeśvara: And in the middle of the courtyard they have this crazy sculpture. All over the city. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...some of our artists make big sculpture out of metal? Prabhupāda: Hm? No. That's not possible. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Philosophically not possible? Prabhupāda: No, practically. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because some of our men here who have helped to make this wall, the front wall of the temple that we're making in front of the Deities, they are artists and they have the ability to cast large, they've done this previously, Prabhupāda: Let them do some small first of all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And show you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. They say that they can do it very easily. Rāmeśvara: What will it look like? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we can do anything. Prabhupāda: Three, three foot, four foot (indistinct). *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's the first thing. First thing we're going to cast is Pañca*-tattva for installation. Prabhupāda: Yes. But it must be very nice, just like in Jaipur they have made those. Rāmeśvara: You have to find a material which is strong and light so you can ship it easily to the temples. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Brass. Rāmeśvara: Or plexiglass, or fiberglass I mean, fiberglass. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Aṣṭa*-dhātu. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eight metals. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like they are in India. Rāmeśvara: Oh, you mean for Deities, Deities are different, I thought you meant art for the temple rooms. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. (end) *Interview with Religious Editor Of the Associated Press-*-July 16, 1976, New York Prabhupāda: Laboring. Interviewer: You say not separating but liberating? Prabhupāda: Not liberating. Interviewer: I didn't understand your repl... Hari-śauri: Could you repeat the question again? Interviewer: Many people say that members of the International Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Society are being cut off from work in the world and therefore their contributions to the world are being lost to the world and I wondered how you felt about that. Prabhupāda: Yes. But they have misunderstood. Interviewer: That is true? Prabhupāda: Misunderstood. Interviewer: Misunderstood. Prabhupāda: The difficulty is they do not understand on which platform we are working. Interviewer: How would you describe that platform? Prabhupāda: Just like you or me or anyone, this living condition is one platform and when I or you, we are dead, that is another platform. So generally people are working on the bodily concept of platform. Interviewer: What kind of? Prabhupāda: Bodily. Interviewer: Oh, bodily, walking on the, yes yes. Prabhupāda: And we are working on the spiritual platform. Just like what is the distinction between a dead man and a living man? There is some distinction. Interviewer: Right. Prabhupāda: So those who are working on the bodily platform, they are working on the dead platform. Interviewer: Does that involve a majority of the people, or...? Prabhupāda: Anyone. It is a little difficult. Try to understand, that this body, so long the living force is there, the body is important. Do you follow it or not? This body is important how long? So long the life is there. Interviewer: Sure. What I'm trying to get at is you say that... Prabhupāda: You'll understand, just try to understand me. That this body is important so long the life is there. Interviewer: Right, I agree with that. Prabhupāda: So this body minus life, what is the value? Interviewer: None whatever. Prabhupāda: This body minus life, what is the value? *Bali*-mardana: He said none. Interviewer: None, no value. Prabhupāda: No value. Interviewer: Except as fertilizer. Prabhupāda: So we are working on that platform where the life is there. And people in general they are working on the platform of this body. Interviewer: On the platform of, on the dead platform? You say people in general... Prabhupāda: The body is dead. Body is dead. Just like your shirt. It is dead always. Either on your body or hanging on the hanger. Your shirt and coat, is it not? Interviewer: My shirt and coat are dead? Prabhupāda: Is it not dead? Interviewer: Right. Prabhupāda: Similarly... Interviewer: But my body is not dead. Prabhupāda: Body is not because the living force is there. Interviewer: Right. But people in general you say are walking on the dead platform in live bodies? Devotees: Working. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Oh working. Oh, working on the dead platform in live bodies. Prabhupāda: Dead, you don't talk, you don't talk. Interviewer: Is that correct? *Bali*-mardana: (laughs) He, Prabhupāda has explained to you previously that those who identify on the bodily concept, because the body itself is dead without the soul, it is considered the dead platform. Because the body itself without the soul is dead, whereas we are concentrating on the platform of life, the life within the body, the soul. So that is the platform of life. Interviewer: Well is that what makes the people make this distinction between the life you are leading and the life of the world? Prabhupāda: Yes, because we are working in different platform. Interviewer: Uh huh. Prabhupāda: We are working on the live platform and general people, they are working on the dead platform. Interviewer: So in a sense the movement involves a rejection of the general world activities and... Prabhupāda: Not rejection. Interviewer: ...separation from it. Prabhupāda: Not rejection. Just like your car. Your car is important so long it is moving. But if it does not move, then what is the importance of the car? Motor car. Interviewer: Not, if it's not in use it's serving no purpose. Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly if you simply concentrate on the car without any attention to the car driver, then what is your knowledge? Interviewer: It takes both. Prabhupāda: Huh? Interviewer: It takes both, the car and the driver. Prabhupāda: Yes. Car is important so long it is moving and if it is not moving it has no importance, it is lump of matter. So the car in both the condition, while moving and not moving, it is lump of matter. *Interviewer: Well does that mean that the world, the general world's activities are like a non*-moving car? A lump of matter? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: And that's why the Kṛṣṇa movement is separate, separate. Prabhupāda: Appears to be different. Interviewer: Appears to be separate from the world... Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: ...is that the proper word, how would you put that? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Interviewer: How would you put it, that "We are..." *Bali*-mardana: We are also utilizing the car but our attention is on the life principle, not on the dead metal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Appears to be separated, that's the way you would put it. Well, is it separated? Prabhupāda: It is always separated. It is always separated. Just like the driver and the car, they are always separated. Interviewer: I'm talking about the movement, from the secular world. Prabhupāda: First of all, understand the analogy. The car and the driver is always separated. The driver is not car, neither the car is the driver. Interviewer: Well, is the Kṛṣṇa movement the driver or the car? Prabhupāda: Why you bring Kṛṣṇa? First of all, try to understand the analogy. There is car and there is the driver. That car is always different from the driver and the driver is always different from the car. Is it not? Interviewer: Absolutely. The car can't drive itself. Prabhupāda: So, if you take attention of the car and you do not know anything about the driver, then what is your knowledge? Interviewer: I didn't quite get the question. *Bali*-mardana: If you pay attention to the car without paying attention to understanding who the driver of the car is, what is the driver, then what is the use of your knowledge? In other words, the driver is the living entity or the soul and the car is this body, the material elements of this material world including the body. So without understanding who you are, who the living entity within the body or the driver within the car, then what is the use of your knowledge of the material elements without understanding who you are? Interviewer: Well, since this dichotomy appears to be the case, I mean that there is, that the movement is sort of cut off from the world in general, does that not deprive the world of the service, of the usefulness of these people? Prabhupāda: First of all, if you do not understand what is the movement then how you can give your verdict like that? First of all, try to understand what is this movement. Interviewer: The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, the Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Society. Prabhupāda: Then what is that Kṛṣṇa movement? That Kṛṣṇa movement is, just like to understand the driver. *Bali*-mardana: The Kṛṣṇa movement is meant to help people to understand the spiritual knowledge, knowledge of who they actually are. That is what our movement is dedicated to. We are not dedicated for our own... Interviewer: What is the purpose of the movement, your Grace? Prabhupāda: Purpose of the movement is to know who is the driver of the car. Interviewer: To know who is the driver of the car? Prabhupāda: Of the car. Interviewer: And who is that? Prabhupāda: That is, we are contributing. People are in ignorance about his own identification, who is he. He's thinking he's dead body. That is misconception. Interviewer: There's no way to identify the driver of the car then. *Bali*-mardana: No, no. Prabhupāda: Just see it is so difficult subject matter. I am speaking to you, still you feel difficulty. It is little difficult subject matter. We say the car and driver, if you understand this analogy, the car and the driver, so who is important? The driver is important, the car is important. Both combined together giving a service, the car is moving. But if they are separated, who is important, the car is important or the driver is important? Interviewer: I don't know how I'm going to get the point you're making there across. If the car and the driver are separated, the car is useless and the driver is a person. The driver is always important. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, driver is always important. Within the car or without the car. Interviewer: Within or without the car, and if he's a chauffeur driving a carload of people then he becomes less important, the people are primarily the ones that are important, that are in the car. (laughter) Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand the car is moving with the help of the driver. So the driver and the car they are always different identity. So when the car is dead, the driver do not work with the car, but the driver is important within the car or without the car. *Bali*-mardana: In other words, the soul is important with this body or without this body. But the body without the soul is simply fertilizer, like you said, it's dead, useless. So our mission is to educate people about the driver, about the soul within the body. Prabhupāda: And people are generally working on the body. Interviewer: People are generally working on the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we are working on the driver of the body. That is the difference. Interviewer: Working on the driver of the body. On the spirit, right? Prabhupāda: Yes, on the spirit soul. And because they do not know what is the difference between the soul and the body, they cannot understand what is our contribution. Interviewer: Because they do not understand the difference between the soul and the body, that's why they don't understand what you are contributing. Prabhupāda: Contribution. *Bali*-mardana: We're going to give you a transcript. Interviewer: Do you think that...? Prabhupāda: Now, just you try. We are trying to give enlightenment about the driver of the car. Because the driver of the car is always important, either on the car or without the car. And people in general they are giving importance to the car only. They have no knowledge of the driver. The car requires petrol and the driver requires nice food. So people in general, when they see that we are not giving petrol to the driver, they are surprised. Interviewer: When they see that you are not giving a role to the driver? *Bali*-mardana: Petrol. Interviewer: Oh, petrol. Prabhupāda: They think that petrol is the food of the driver. (laughter) *Bali*-mardana: In other words to satisfy the body does not satisfy the person within the body. Prabhupāda: Therefore they misunderstand, "Oh, they are not giving petrol to this man for eating." But the man's eatable is not the petrol. Interviewer: I would like to ask you another question, your Grace. Prabhupāda: You have understood this point? Interviewer: Okay. Prabhupāda: No, have you understood this point? *Bali*-mardana: Have you understood the analogy? Interviewer: I accept, ah, I suppose what you are saying is that the driver... Prabhupāda: You have to understand, you have to understand. Interviewer: ...that the driver is the spirit of man and that the car is his physical functioning. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So the car requires petrol. Does it mean the driver also requires petrol? Interviewer: You mean the spirit? Food? Does the spirit require food? Prabhupāda: No, no. This analogy. The driver's food is different from the... Interviewer: Body food. Prabhupāda: ...from the petr..., of the motor car. The motor car without petrol cannot work. Similarly, the driver without food cannot work. But the food of the driver and the power of the motor car different. *Bali*-mardana: The needs of the body and soul are different. Prabhupāda: So we are supplying the needs of the soul, and they are supplying the needs of the motor car. Therefore they find difference. They are thinking, "They are not supplying petrol to this man for eating." That is the difference. They are crying, "Oh, they are not giving petrol for eating to the driver." Devotee: Actually we are giving all those things as well. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are supplying everything, driver's food and the car's power. But they see that, "Why they are wasting time giving food to the driver?" They think that petrol is the food of the driver as well as the car. They do not know that the food of the driver is different from the petrol for the car. Try to understand this analogy. (indistinct) Interviewer: I gather what you are driving at is that bodily food is different than, mental, reading, intellectual food, spiritual food, it all comes into the body and we take it all information, ideas, this is the kind... Prabhupāda: Not ideas, that is a fact. Fact that you driver, you must have your food. Otherwise you will die. Interviewer: I'm looking at you, that's taking in a certain kind of information. Prabhupāda: You cannot drive the car without food. Interviewer: You have all kinds of information that you have to have to survive. To get down the sidewalk without running into the building you've got to see the wall. Prabhupāda: The sum and substance is that if a person thinks that he is the car, the driver, if he thinks wrongly that he is the car, then his life is spoiled. *Bali*-mardana: So if someone identifies too closely with the body, then his life is spoiled. Interviewer: You think, if he identifies with the body too much his life is... Prabhupāda: Not too much. Interviewer: At all. Prabhupāda: He should know that he is different from the car. That is real knowledge. And if he identifies himself with the car, then he's a fool. Interviewer: Well, can he, is he supposed to care about and honor the body in the physical world... Prabhupāda: That is already taken. Interviewer: ...and to see that, see the physical world as important? Prabhupāda: Suppose if you are utilizing this coat, you are taking care of it, but if you think that you are coat, then you are doomed. *Bali*-mardana: If you use the body you should take care of it but if you think that you are the body, then you are doomed, then it is foolishness. But you naturally you take care of the body, but you should still don't identify with it. Interviewer: Well you know, Your Grace, the spiritual quality is an important part of life of course... Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise the animal. If the man does not understand the value of his spiritual quality then he's no better than the dog. The dog does not know. Interviewer: What do you think of Jimmy Carter? *Bali*-mardana: Jimmy Carter is the Presidential candidate. Prabhupāda: I do not know. What is the (indistinct) is I do not know, neither I... Interviewer: Not aware of that. *Bali*-mardana: Doesn't care about politics. Interviewer: But isn't, that's part of what I'm thinking about, that you and your movement tend to separate people from concern with what's going on in the world, like that's a Presidential election and Jimmy Carter is the democratic candidate. This is a disregard of what's going on in the world. Isn't that an example of it? Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that there were many Presidents before, what is this name of this? *Bali*-mardana: Jimmy Carter. He is not President yet. Hari-śauri: Ford is the president. Prabhupāda: Ford. So what improvement you have done by having this President or that President? What improvement you'll make unless some false promise? That's all. What is the improvement? You have changed so many hundreds and thousands of Presidents, but what is the improvement about spiritual knowledge? *Bali*-mardana: Prabhupāda sees everything spiritually. Interviewer: How's that? *Bali*-mardana: He's seeing everything spiritually. What is the improvement spiritually out of all these Presidents? So therefore we do not care. Interviewer: You do not care what the President... Prabhupāda: We take care, but we take care more for the spirit soul than the body. That is our basic principle. Interviewer: But do you think most of the Hare Kṛṣṇa members will vote in the election in November? Prabhupāda: They're attending? (indistinct) *Bali*-mardana: He's asking if you think that they will vote, our members will vote. Interviewer: Will they participate in the election? Will they register and vote do you think? Prabhupāda: Personally I never give votes. Interviewer: Never voted. You're a citizen however, aren't you, a U.S. citizen? Prabhupāda: I am permanent resident. *Bali*-mardana: Permanent resident. Prabhupāda: Immigrant. Interviewer: Well will they follow your example and not vote? Prabhupāda: I do not know, but our principle is that I vote for this man or that man, so what is spiritual benefit, that is our point. *Bali*-mardana: If he was Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he might vote. If the politician is God conscious, then we'll support him. Interviewer: Vote for this man or that, what spiritual difference would it make, is that the way you put that? *Bali*-mardana: Yes, as long as the candidate is not God conscious it wouldn't make any difference which way we vote, but if he's God conscious, then we'll vote. Interviewer: Well, would he have to be in the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement to be God conscious? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Bali*-mardana: Would the candidate, in order for a candidate to be God conscious, would he have to be part of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? Prabhupāda: He must know the science, this science, this spiritual science. Interviewer: To be God conscious, you must... Prabhupāda: That's a great science. *Bali*-mardana: Great science. Interviewer: How's that? *Bali*-mardana: In order to understand God it is a great science. Interviewer: Do you need to be involved in the Kṛṣṇa movement to be God conscious? Prabhupāda: You may take part in the movement or not but he must know the science. Movement is preaching... *Interviewer: You mean the Bhagavad*-gītā, he must know that or what? *Prabhupāda: Not Bhagavad*-gītā or anything, but he must... Just like a book, mathematics, it may be written by different men, but one must be a mathematician. Interviewer: I think what Bali was saying is that if a Kṛṣṇa consciousness member were running for an office then you would get out and vote for him. That he would be God conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Interviewer: But I'm trying to ask does he have to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, involvement, in order to be God conscious? Prabhupāda: Everyone should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Interviewer: Huh? Prabhupāda: Everyone should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Not only the... President or not President, everyone, that is the objective of human life. He must know himself what he is. Interviewer: Now, that leads up to another question I wanted to ask you, do you think that the, one of the attractions of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the rather exotic, Hindu, unusual customs in the West. I mean these customs are unusual in the West and they have a sort of exotic appeal, a fascination for young people. Prabhupāda: No, no, that ignorance is there both in Western and Eastern. It is the ignorance of the human society. Interviewer: But do you think it's unusual, the fact that it's an Eastern, mysterious Eastern religion has an appeal to American young people. Prabhupāda: Why do you bring Eastern religion Western religion? It is a science. Two plus two is equally important both in the East and the West. Interviewer: Well, it originated in the East and it's not very, it hasn't been customary in the West. Prabhupāda: That originated... Just like the sun rises in India first. That does not mean the sun in America and the sun in India is different. The sun is the same sun. It may appear first in the Eastern side but that sun does not belong either to the East or the West. Sun is sun. Interviewer: Well do you think that the Eastern sun, meaning Hare Kṛṣṇa, is appropriate in a culture that has a different religion traditionally? Prabhupāda: No, no, it is ignorance. Why do you say...? Interviewer: The Jewish, Biblical Christian tradition is traditional in the West, the Hindu tradition... Prabhupāda: I never said that Jewish or Christian or Hindu or Muslim. *Bali*-mardana: We aren't Hindus. Prabhupāda: We do not belong either to the Hindus or Christian or Jewish. We belong to Kṛṣṇa or God. Kṛṣṇa means God. Interviewer: Yeah, but you use the Hindu scriptures. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Just like we say the sun, sūrya and you say the sun, the "sun." But the subject matter is the same. You say the sun in the sky as s*-u-n, "sun." And we say in India sūrya. S-ū-r-y-a. So the name may be different but the object is the same. *Interviewer: In other words, do you think the India*-originated religion is, serves its particular purpose in the Western society? I mean, does, is it of particular value in a rather technological society, the Hindu tradition? Prabhupāda: Generally speaking, everywhere, everyone everywhere is identifying his body as the self. It does not mean East or West. This is ignorance. Wherever there is ignorance one identifies himself with the body. This is ignorance. It may be in the East or in the West. It doesn't matter. Interviewer: Well, can a self exist without a body? Prabhupāda: No. Self can exist without body. Interviewer: I mean you say that people identify themselves, the body as the self. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: And that this is ignorance to identify the self with the body. Prabhupāda: That I have already explained, that the driver... Interviewer: But does that mean a sort of rejection of the body as unimportant? Prabhupāda: Not rejection. Again, you come to the... Interviewer: But the body is important to the self isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just try to understand. That we have already explained. The driver and the car are two different identities, is it not? Interviewer: Yes. Prabhupāda: The driver can exist without the car and the car without the driver has no value. Interviewer: Well, in that sense... Prabhupāda: So why don't you understand first of all this? Interviewer: ...in keeping with that analogy can the self exist, does the self exist without the body in this world? Prabhupāda: Yes, oh yes. Interviewer: In this life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Life is always there. Interviewer: As a spirit apart from the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is the ideal life. *Bali*-mardana: That is the goal. Prabhupāda: That is the goal. When the soul lives without this material body, that is his liberated life. Just like the criminal, he can live within the jail and without the jail. But he's thinking wrongly that without jail he cannot live. But his life without jail is real life. Interviewer: That reflects the old, the Hindu view that... Prabhupāda: Why you again bring Hindu view? Interviewer: Or, the, at least the Eastern religious view, that to leave this life... Prabhupāda: Why we are bringing Hindu and Muslim view? Interviewer: Well, O.K., I take that back then. I take that back. Anyway, what you're saying is that this life is a jail and that really the goal is another life. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Interviewer: Right? I mean that this life is an evil prison. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, now you have understood. This is not a desirable life, to live in the jail, conditioned. Interviewer: Well in other words, in a sense that is to reject or at least to repudiate this life, this world. Prabhupāda: Not repudiate, to understand. Interviewer: That it is not a good life. Prabhupāda: It is not a good life, and the whole material world is false identification with myself. Interviewer: Well is it important to try to improve this life so that it won't be a prison? Prabhupāda: Yes, improve, improve, to understand that I am not a person of the jail. I am a person of freedom. Long living in the jail one who identifies that "Without jail I cannot live." Interviewer: Well, I hope we all get out of it sometime, somehow, someway, either here or there.(laughs) Prabhupāda: But we are trying to educate the prisoners that "Your life is not perfect within the jail. Your life is perfect without the jail." This is our education. Interviewer: Life is not perfect in the jail. Prabhupāda: Yes. And the person in the jail they are thinking, "What is this, they are not working for the jail life?" Interviewer: Person in the jail, I didn't get that. Prabhupāda: Because they cannot understand that there is life after jail. They are so fool, rascal that they cannot understand that without jail one can live. *Bali*-mardana: So what you were saying before, the persons in the jail are thinking "These people are not working for life in the jail," so they don't understand what we are doing. Interviewer: How's that now? Prabhupāda: We're not working to keep people in the jail conception of life. So that's why they cannot understand what we are doing. Interviewer: You mean you're not working for the jail life? *Bali*-mardana: To keep people within the conception that life is within the jail. Prabhupāda: Just like a man has gone to jail, he's giving education to the prisoners, "My dear brother prisoners, this life is not good, you become honest, don't come to the jail." So other prisoners, they are working hard, they are hammering on the bricks, they think that "This man is not hammering on the bricks, he's talking only." Interviewer: I didn't gather that. *Bali*-mardana: In the prison the people are, their work is, say, to hammer on bricks. So when, if someone comes into the jail and tells the prisoners, "You shouldn't be doing this, actually you should become honest and go out of the jail and be free." Now if the persons in the jail... Because... They will then become envious that "this person, instead of working hard like us, he's simply talking." They cannot understand the benefit that he's giving them and they become envious, that "Because he's not working like us he is nonsense." So do you understand the analogy? It's an analogy. Just like we are coming in the world and telling people to get out of this world, to understand the spiritual world, spiritual side of life. But because we're not working like them, sometimes they misunderstand what is our purpose. Interviewer: In other words you think people should get away from what they're doing in the world. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, that is real life. Interviewer: Huh? Prabhupāda: Oh! (laughs) (someone comes in?) Interviewer: That they really shouldn't concentrate so completely on the world. Prabhupāda: No, no. So long you are in the jail, you have to work according to the principle of the jail but you must know that jail life is not good. *Bali*-mardana: You may work within the material world but you have to understand that the purpose is to get out of the material world. Interviewer: : Well, are your Kṛṣṇa members out of the, out of jail? Prabhupāda: Just like, some of us are working like the hammerman, breaking bricks with hammer, but that does not mean he does not understand. So long one is in the jail, one is not in freedom, he has to work like that by force. But that is not his proper work. He has got a different work outside the jail or in his freedom life. Interviewer: Well, what people are saying about the members of the Kṛṣṇa society is that they are not doing the jail work. Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. The prisoner who is hammering the bricks, he's thinking that this man is simply instructing that you have a different life outside the jail, he's not hammering on the brick. Therefore he is surprised, "How is that he is not hammering like me?" Interviewer: In other words, he's not participating in jail life. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: He's educating them. Interviewer: What's he doing? Prabhupāda: He's educating. Interviewer: He's trying to show them a different way? Prabhupāda: Not different way, he's educating differently. *Bali*-mardana: So they can understand what they're doing, what they're supposed to be doing. Interviewer: He's educating them to what? That this jail life is no good? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: That the jail life is no good? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: But then is that man that's hammering the bricks, isn't he going to quit hammering the bricks, too? Prabhupāda: He may not hammer, he's giving instruction. Just like I was invited in Ahmedabad jail to give some instruction. So I'm not hammering on the bricks because I was in the jail. Interviewer: No, you're giving instruction. Prabhupāda: Yes, I'm meant for giving instruction, I am not meant for hammering on the bricks. Interviewer: But then once you get this... Prabhupāda: So the person who is hammering on the bricks, he's thinking that "This man is simply talking." Interviewer: That's why he thinks that the Kṛṣṇa people are separate. Prabhupāda: He wants to draw him in the business of hammering bricks. Interviewer: Of hammering bricks. Right, right. Prabhupāda: That is the difference. Interviewer: That's the difference. Well, what I'm talking about is... Prabhupāda: He's thinking that "He's not contributing in hammering the bricks." But he does not know that this hammering on the bricks is not a very good business. Interviewer: Not a very good business. Prabhupāda: He does not know, the rascal, who is trying to bring us also in the business of hammering the bricks. Interviewer: (simultaneously) of hammering the bricks, that's right. Yes. Prabhupāda: That is the difference. Interviewer: Yes. Well when you get through with, talking, instructing the man hammering the bricks, is he going to lay down his hammer, too? Prabhupāda: No, he doesn't require. The same... You try to understand. *Bali*-mardana: He may continue hammering, but his knowledge will be complete. He'll have complete understanding. Prabhupāda: At least he must know that "This hammering is my punishment." He knows that "This hammering is not by business, it is my punishment." That is knowledge, that is knowledge. When a prisoner understands that "This hammering business is not my real business, it is my punishment." Interviewer: Isn't that a rather negative way to look at the work? Prabhupāda: Why negative? It is the fact. That is the positive understanding. Why do you take negative? If you are suffering and if you say, if I say, "Don't suffer," is that negative or that is positive? *Bali*-mardana: In other words, if you are suffering and I tell you "Don't suffer," it may sound negative but actually it's positive. Prabhupāda: Yes, positive. But they are rascals, they are taking as negative. Interviewer: Why is work in the world necessarily suffering? It is, it has, a mixture of pain and joy but it's negative to look on it as useless work. Huh? Prabhupāda: Therefore they are envious of the Kṛṣṇa conscious men. They do not see that "These people, they are not hammering like us." So therefore they are thinking that there is no contribution of hammering. They think the hammering is the real business. Interviewer: That's pretty good. (laughter) I think people understand the analogy, they think hammering is the business. What do you think is the business? Prabhupāda: Huh? Interviewer: The world thinks hammering is real business. Prabhupāda: Yes, so our business is to educate them that "Your hammering business is not your life. Your freedom is real business." Interviewer: Freedom is what? Prabhupāda: Real business. *Interviewer: You've, I'm sure you've heard or read about these claims by these parent groups that claim that the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement members are, ah, sort of controlled by intensive indoctrination? Brain*-washed they call it, you know, by getting up and having the two hours or three of chanting in the morning and prayer beads constantly and the group life, that they're sort of controlled, and denied their freedom. What do you say about that? Prabhupāda: It is due to misunderstanding. They do not understand what kind of preaching, what kind of education we are giving. We are giving education how to become free from the hammering business in the jail. They think hammering business and keep oneself within the jail is the real life because they have been accustomed to that. And when we speak that "Hammering or to keep within the jail is not your real business: your real business is freedom," naturally they find contradiction, and they think that we are doing something against their business. That is the difficulty. Interviewer: Like doing something against their what? *Bali*-mardana: Against their business. Interviewer: But in other words you think that there, is there not something to this idea of brain, of being spiritually controlled or spiritually directed? Prabhupāda: It is not controlled, it is not controlled. Interviewer: Well, what would you call it? Prabhupāda: Controlling one from coming to the jail life. If you give good instruction to a man, that "Don't become criminal, don't come to the jail, don't be engaged in the hammering business," it appears negative, but that is positive life. *Bali*-mardana: If you tell someone not to do something that's bad for him, it's positive for him. Prabhupāda: That is his positive life. When the physician says to a patient that "Don't eat like this, then you will increase your diabetes. Don't eat this, don't eat starch, don't eat sugar." So people may think he's simply giving negative, but that is his positive life. They misunderstand. Interviewer: I guess when you started out down here in Greenwich Village in 1965 you didn't have any idea that your movement was going to become the rather large movement it is. Did you? Prabhupāda: Yes, because my movement is real movement, positive. Any intelligent man will understand and take it. [break] Interviewer: ...planning a trip to India soon. Prabhupāda: I'm planning to India, and from India to Europe, that is my business. *Bali*-mardana: Travels. Prabhupāda: I travel. Interviewer: I mean you aren't leaving this country for good. You're a permanent resident, right? Prabhupāda: Who said? Interviewer: I don't know, I just heard that somewhere. Prabhupāda: From where? Interviewer: I don't know, somebody said it. Prabhupāda: How can I answer this? Somebody madman must have said it. (laughter) Interviewer: : I'm just checking it out, but there's nothing to it, huh? Prabhupāda: I am touring always. *Bali*-mardana: He's always traveling. Interviewer: Where is your main home? Prabhupāda: My home is back to home, back to Godhead. Interviewer: Is where? Hari-śauri: Back to Godhead. *Bali*-mardana: With God. Prabhupāda: That is my real home. That means every temple is my home. Interviewer: Did you work out the spiritual disciplines for the group yourself? I mean about the morning chanting and the recital of the two thousand Hare Kṛṣṇas a day and... Did you work those out yourself? Prabhupāda: Still I am working. Interviewer: Still working, on those disciplines. Prabhupāda: Yes, you see, I have got, these men, they have got. *Bali*-mardana: He's saying did you think of these things yourself, to chant on the beads and follow the program in the morning, have you made these up yourself? Prabhupāda: No, this is the disciplic process. *Bali*-mardana: Disciplic process. Interviewer: Yes, who originated those steps? Prabhupāda: It is since time immemorial. *Bali*-mardana: Time immemorial. *Prabhupāda: Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. Find out this. Interviewer: Well I understand you do a lot of work translating and that you only sleep two hours a day. Is that right? Prabhupāda: Not two hours, I sleep about four hours. Interviewer: Four hours? Four hours. Rādhāvallabha: ...verse Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Hari-śauri: "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion." Prabhupāda: So this was spoken five thousand years ago and we are doing the same thing. Interviewer: Now what's your, what's your...? Prabhupāda: Now your answer is there, it is not that I invented something. Interviewer: Yes, you didn't invent it, I get the point, that it derives from the Vedic scriptures. Prabhupāda: Whatever we are doing, it is authorized. That is the principle for spiritual understanding. Interviewer: What I was trying to ask you a while ago, do you think that these particular Vedic disciplines and spiritual principles, concentration on the spirit instead of the body, has a particular usefulness in Western society nowadays? Prabhupāda: It is useful for every human being. If the Western society thinks that they are not human being, that is another thing. (laughter) *Bali*-mardana: In other words, this is the business of human life. Interviewer: What's your view of Judaism and Christianity? Prabhupāda: I have not studied, but any "ism," if it is meant for making the soul free from this bodily condition, that is first class "ism." Otherwise, it is simply waste of time. Interviewer: Any religion that... Prabhupāda: That gives facility. Interviewer: Emphasizes making us free from the bodily condition. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: That's a first class religion. Prabhupāda: That's it. Interviewer: I don't think Judaism and Christianity do that. Prabhupāda: I do not know that. Interviewer: They consider the body very important. Prabhupāda: Again you come to the same. Body is important so long the soul is there. The car is important so long it is moving. Interviewer: But they don't, they cherish the physical, you know, the world itself. Prabhupāda: That is ignorance, that is ignorance. Interviewer: That is ignorance. Prabhupāda: We have got students from every community. From Jewish community, from Christian community, from Muhammadan community, from Buddhist community, from Hindu community, everywhere. Because the knowledge is for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's Jewish, Christian or... "Two plus two equal to four" is good for everyone. It is not that "two plus two" is good for the Christians, not for the Jews. Gold is gold. Interviewer: I didn't get that. *Bali*-mardana: The principle of, say, "two plus two equals four," is the same for a person whether he's Christian, Jewish, Muhammadan or whatever. Just as the same way that gold is gold. Gold always has it's value in any situation. Prabhupāda: You cannot say because gold is in the hand of a Muhammadan it is Muhammadan gold, or if it is in the hand of a Christian it is Christian gold. Gold is gold. Interviewer: Right. Prabhupāda: In anyone's hand. You cannot designate it. Interviewer: Who's got the gold? Prabhupāda: Huh? Everyone has got the gold. Interviewer: Who has the gold? Prabhupāda: No, everyone has got the gold, but they have, they are not in awareness that what is that gold. *Bali*-mardana: Everyone has the gold. They are simply unaware that they have it. Everyone is originally Kṛṣṇa conscious or God conscious. What Prabhupāda is doing is making people aware of it, that it's within them, within their heart. Interviewer: Well, are there other paths to awareness of spirit consciousness other than the Kṛṣṇa consciousness path? Prabhupāda: That, how can I say? That is your subject matter. You study both of them and see and give your judgement. Interviewer: What is your view? Are there other paths to spirit consciousness? Prabhupāda: There is, but not very elaborate. Interviewer: There are but not very what? *Bali*-mardana: Elaborate, scientific. Prabhupāda: Not very elaborate. Interviewer: Not very good? Prabhupāda: Not very elaborate. *Bali*-mardana: Elaborate. Interviewer: Well is Kṛṣṇa consciousness very elaborate? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: By elaborate you mean effective, is that? *Bali*-mardana: Scientific. Interviewer: You mean effective by elaborate? Prabhupāda: Effective also. Interviewer: I mean is that the proper synonym for elaborate? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: These are some of our books that Prabhupāda has published just to explain this science. Prabhupāda: We are explaining this science in so many books. It is open to everyone. Interviewer: That's quite a library. Hari-śauri: This is just the beginning. And there's another forty volumes after this. Interviewer: Are all of these translations that you've made Your Grace? I don't blame you for sleeping only four hours a night. I tell you, just to produce a half a dozen books in a lifetime is quite a job you know. Prabhupāda: It is very difficult, but I have already produced eighty books. Interviewer: Eighty? Eighty? Prabhupāda: Eighty books. Interviewer: Eighty? Prabhupāda: Eighty. Eight zero. Interviewer: Translations of the Vedic scriptures. *Bali*-mardana: And commentaries. Interviewer: Translation and commentaries. Prabhupāda: And all world scholars, professors, universities, they are receiving so nicely. *Bali*-mardana: We have standing orders for all of Prabhupāda's books that he has now and in the future, all over the world in all the leading universities and the professors are using them as texts. We have hundreds of letters. Prabhupāda: You can see some of the lists. Interviewer: What I've heard, what I've heard some Hindu professors say is that Hinduism is such a complex and profound religion and that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness members are very superficial about it. They simply go through these disciplines and really don't involve themselves in the... They take a superficial version of Hinduism. Prabhupāda: That may be Hindu religion. But we do not belong to any religion. That may be true for the Hindu religion what the professor has said, but we do not identify with any religion. We are different from any religious system. Interviewer: But the scriptures are the same, the Vedic scriptures are Hindu scriptures. Prabhupāda: No, Hindu religion... Of course, the scripture is the Vedic principle, but the word is not Vedic. This word Hindu is not Vedic word. *Bali*-mardana: Hindu is not Sanskrit, it's just a popular, general term. Prabhupāda: Vedic, *Vedas*, *Vedas*, that is real, the word. But they have taken it in a different way. Actually the "Hindu," this name is given by the neighbor Muhammadans. There is a river called Sindhu. That river is still there, it is now in Pakistan. So outside the border of India, the Muhammadans, they used to call the inhabitants of the neighborhood of that river Sindhu, Hindu. Because they pronounce s as h. So this is the origin. So "Hindu" is a title given by the Muhammadan neighbors. It is not found in the Vedic literature. Interviewer: I see, I see. That's like most religious names derived quite often out of ridicule or scorn. Like the Quakers, that was originally a title of scorn. And Methodists, they were the methodical ones, that was a title of scorn. And the Baptists were the baptizers. *Prabhupāda: Real Vedic principle is called varṇāśrama. Observing the principle of four varṇas. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. It is a very long science. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. This is called varṇa. And brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. This is called āśrama. So the Vedic civilization is called varṇāśrama*-dharma, not Hindu dharma. This is later contribution of the so-called scholars. Interviewer: Well ah, I thank you very much for your time, your Grace, and I'm glad I finally got acquainted with you. I missed you in Brooklyn. Prabhupāda: Huh? Interviewer: I missed you in Brooklyn, I came over there and you were in the backyard, I think you were asleep or having a backrub or something. So I didn't get to see you. Prabhupāda: Yes, in the daytime I am... Interviewer: It was good to catch you this time and I hope to see you again. Prabhupāda: So kindly put the matter properly because people misunderstand on account of their ignorance they misunderstand our, movement. Interviewer: What are their main misunderstandings? Prabhupāda: This bodily concept. They are thinking that they are body. "I am Muhammadan, I am Christian, I am American, I am Eastern, I am Western," all bodily conceptions. Interviewer: You mean about the Eastern and Western? Prabhupāda: Eastern, Western, that is also bodily conception. Why they are thinking Eastern, Western? Everyone is human being. Interviewer: Well, what is it that they particularly understand, misunderstand about the movement? *Prabhupāda: They do not understand that we are talking on the spiritual platform and they are on the material bodily platform. Therefore they find contradiction. One has to be little sober to understand this movement and what platform we are speaking. They are accustomed, on the same example, hammering the bricks. And when they see others, they are not hammering the bricks, they think they are different. They cannot understand that life can be without hammering the bricks. Karmīs. In the Bhagavad*-gītā, the word mūḍha, that has been explained by Viśvanātha Cakravartī, karmīs, these mūḍhas. They cannot understand. Interviewer: I'm going to have to go back and hammer a few bricks. (laughter) It's been a pleasure, thank you very much, for your time. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Give him prasāda. Thank you very much. Interviewer: Thank you again, I hope to see you again sometime. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Interviewer: Good day. (end) *Conversation After Interview with Religious Editor, Associated Press-*-July 16, 1976, New York Prabhupāda: Because they are accustomed to the business of hammering the bricks from time immemorial, they think "This is the business. How is that this man is not engaged in this business?" Hari-śauri: Even after he'd understood the analogy that the man was in the prison and hammering bricks, he was still thinking that "Well, shouldn't he still be hammering bricks?" He was asking that. He was still thinking like that. It's amazing. Rādhāvallabha: He couldn't understand any of the analogies. Prabhupāda: That is the karmīs. Even the Orissa politicians, they accused Caitanya Mahāprabhu, because the Orissa politician, it is a fact the Mahārāja Pratāparudra, the King of Orissa during the time of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he was politically very strong. At that time the Muhammadans were conquering different parts of India, but they could not enter Orissa or the southern India. They were very strong. So this Mahārāja Pratāparudra politically was very strong. So the modern politicians of Orissa, they accuse Caitanya Mahāprabhu that, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to Orissa and Mahārāja Pratāparudra became influenced by Him, Orissa fell down. They accuse sometimes that Orissa's political position became weakened on account of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's influence on Mahārāja Pratāparudra. They say. The modern politicians of Orissa, they also do not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. *Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? There's this editor from that Trans*-India magazine downstairs, but also that..., the doctor is there as well. So would you like to see the doctor, or would you like to do another interview? They tried to..., they were trying to contact the Trans-India to have him come another day, but apparently it doesn't seem as though they did it. So they've come hoping to get an interview. Prabhupāda: So that you decide, which is important. Hari-śauri: No, I... We'll see if we can arrange it. Would you like to see the doctor? *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, the Trans*-India if he wants. Hari-śauri: I'll see. Prabhupāda: They can wait or one of them may come. So what is the news? Ātreya Ṛṣi: The karmīs decided they want to have a meeting. Prabhupāda: Oh, that GBC meeting. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, no. My karmī friends, on the 19th in New York. Prabhupāda: Oh, your business. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They always decide on perfect timing. *Prabhupāda: That's nice. I shall prefer to see the Trans*-India first, because they will give some publicity to our movement. Rādhāvallabha: So we'll tell the doctor to please wait? Prabhupāda: Yes. All right, he has gone to where? Rādhāvallabha: He may bring the doctor up first. Prabhupāda: All right, let him come. So who is the chief man dealing with this, who is the chief secretary, all these visitors? *Rādhāvallabha: Bali*-mardana has been greeting them, because Rāmeśvara is involved in the GBC meeting. Prabhupāda: So you have been in the GBC meeting? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, I was earlier. Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter? Ātreya Ṛṣi: We discussed Jagadīśa Prabhu's request to primarily attend his engagement with Gurukula, and we also discussed Satsvarūpa Gosvāmī's desire to attend primarily Library Party. Prabhupāda: It is good proposal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We discussed various difficulties that have been happening in Australia, and that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa should go there and help for..., just for visit, just to help. And then they will report to you. Prabhupāda: What is Iran's business going on? I got some good report from Nandarāṇī that she is in contact with the Shah's daughter, princess. Is that a fact? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, Nandarāṇī Prabhu is doing very well. She's got a Gurukula, a school for the Indian children, they are being well attended. Also Mahārāja, Parivrājakācārya Svāmī, he has been in touch with the Shah's daughter and he's been preaching to them. *Prabhupāda: Shah's son*-in-law is interested, I have heard. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, he is interested. *Prabhupāda: That's good. They are enlightened, the daughter and the son*-in-law both? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, they are both interested, but they are also very much... Prabhupāda: Biased. They are also biased. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is natural. *Hari-śauri: The Trans*-India people, they'll come tomorrow, at four-thirty, if that's all right, and the doctor is on his way up now. He'll be here in five minutes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Dayānanda Prabhu is doing very nicely. Prabhupāda: Very nicely. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very, very first class. Prabhupāda: What he's doing now? Ātreya Ṛṣi: First of all, he's helping in every program we have. He's very cooperative, very intelligent boy. Prabhupāda: Yes, he's very good boy. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And he's also working as a computer man, very good job. Prabhupāda: Oh, a good salary? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, very good salary. Prabhupāda: He knows computer? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Yes, he's good electrician. So where he is employed? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He's employed with one of my clients. Prabhupāda: Oh. What salary? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Sperry, Sperry Univac. Prabhupāda: What salary he is getting? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Ah, he's getting about twelve, thirteen hundred dollars now. Prabhupāda: Salary? Yes. He was getting in America six hundred. (laughs) Getting double. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And he will get a lot more and more. He will get a lot more. And he is..., we have our regular programs, he brings people from business, we all bring people, and the prasādam and chanting and lecture. It's very nice. Prabhupāda: And so Nandarāṇī is also working? Ātreya Ṛṣi: She is happy. She, for a while she taught at a karmī school, from that school... Prabhupāda: She has got experience. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, she's very good. Prabhupāda: Both of them are very intelligent. And Nandarāṇī is more intelligent than her husband. (laughs) I know that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I find that he is very intelligent, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Ah, Dayānanda. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: He is intelligent, but Nandarāṇī is still more intelligent. (laughs) I know that. Both of them are intelligent, but this girl appears to be more intelligent. That's all right. What about their daughters? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They are there. They're very happy. Prabhupāda: Where? Ātreya Ṛṣi: In Tehran. Prabhupāda: They have gone there? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They have come. Prabhupāda: Oh, when? Ātreya Ṛṣi: About two months ago, a month. Prabhupāda: I saw them in Los Angeles. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, they left. Hari-śauri: Must have been just after we left there. Ātreya Ṛṣi: A month ago, five, six weeks ago. Prabhupāda: They have got two daughters. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. They are there, they also attend Gurukula. They have it regularly now. *Bali*-mardana: So that reporter was very impressed. He's a very big reporter. He works for the API, the Associated Press. They give their news to papers all over the world, the news. Prabhupāda: So let him represent properly. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. You have given him a very unique interview, I think, with your analogies. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is there. Why they think Eastern, Western, Jewish, and...? We are talking of the human being. That is the misunderstanding going on, that this is Hindu religion, Eastern religion. Kṛṣṇa begins from the word dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Find out this. The rascals are taking Hindu, Muslim, Christian. Dehe, the body, and the inner force of the body, He's beginning His teaching. Where is the question of Hindu, Muslim, Christian and Jewish? Still they are misunderstanding, "This is Hindu." *Bali*-mardana: It is very hard for them to understand. Prabhupāda: This is science. Read that. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Now, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, boyhood, childhood, youthhood, old age, is it for the Hindus? The Christians do not become child, do not become youth? Ayi. (Hindi) Hari-śauri: This is Dr. Bhagat. Prabhupāda: Bhagat. You are from Gujarat? Dr. Bhagat: Gujarat, yes. Hari-śauri: He's one of our life members also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: She's your wife? Child? How many children you have got? How many children you have got? Dr. Bhagat: One. Prabhupāda: Only one? *There is no need of hundreds of rascal child, children. One is sufficient. Varam eka. Varaṁ guṇī*-putra, he must be qualified. And who is guṇī, who is a devotee and learned scholar. Ko'ta putreṇa jātena, yo na vidyā na bhaktimān(?). What is the use of such rascal child if he's not a devotee, neither learned? Khanena cakṣuṣā kiṁ cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam.(?) What is the use of blind eyes? It is simply troublesome. So let there be one child, but he must be like Prahlāda, like Dhruva Mahārāja, and then child production is beneficial. Otherwise, if we beget children like cats and dogs, what is the use? That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. Another example is given: ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā-sahasrasaḥ. If there is one moon in the sky, it is sufficient to give light to the whole sky. What is the use of millions of stars? So, it is very good that you can take care of one child and make him a great devotee and learned scholar. Then it is successful. So Dr. Bhagat, I get some pain. It is... (end) *Interview with Trans*-India Magazine--July 17, 1976, New York *Prabhupāda: My first daughter's age is fifty*-five. She was born in 1923. You were also born? (pause) *Interviewer: Prabhu, we want to ask you some questions. It's a monthly magazine we have, Trans*-India. It circulates northern Indian immigrants in North America and North American, Canadian friends of ours. You know ever since Swami Vivekananda came here in 1896... *Prabhupāda: Ninety*-three. Interviewer: His first one was 1896, I think, his first visit. Prabhupāda: No, 1893. *Interviewer: Ninety*-three, I see. Since then there has been a lot of interest in this country in Indian philosophy. Recent gurus have come, they have talked about meditation. My own view is that all of these things have influenced the American people, but in a kind of intellectual fad, a kind of fashion. And it seems to me that your intention and aim is not merely to cater to the mind, cater to reason, cater to the intellect, but to effect a kind of transformation of man himself. Is this why you have introduced a whole way of living, a whole way of life, is it? Am I right in suggesting that? *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a different platform of life*-a spiritual. Generally people are on the material platform, in the bodily concept of life, and the whole world is going on with that wrong conception of life. Actually, as soon as we think that we are this body, we are immediately on the platform of animal life. So in the Bhāgavata it is stated, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. Anyone who is thinking, identifying himself with this body, and similarly with other references, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. In relation with body, we think of family, community, nationality. In this way our civilization is dog civilization. That is not human civilization. Human civilization begins when one understands that he is not this body. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Perhaps you have heard this word... Interviewer: Yes. *Prabhupāda: ...the Vedic mantras. "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." That is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Asmin dehe, within this body there is the soul. So on account of presence of the soul we are transmigrating to different bodies. Just like from childhood to boyhood. The body of a boy is different from the body of a child, but the same soul who was within the body of a child has now come within the body of a boy. And the same soul again, he will go in the body of a young man. And the same soul again will go in the body of an old man. And the same soul, when the body of old man is finished, then he enters another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So the soul is transmigrating from one body to another. A part of it we can see in this life. I was in the child's body, I was in the boy's body, I was in the young man's body, now I am an old man's body. Similarly, as my child's body being finished, I have entered into the boy's body; my boy's body being finished, I have entered young man's body. Similarly, when this body will be finished, I shall enter another body, new body. That will be given to me by nature according to the mental condition at the time of my death. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. This is the law of nature. So people are not educated in the law of nature. They are educated in animalistic life. As the dog is thinking "I am dog," and barking, similarly, if a person thinks "I am Indian" or "I am American," so there's not much difference between the dog and the man. The man must think otherwise, that "I am not this body," then the civilization, human civilization, begins. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Unfortunately, there is no education. This education was little there. Even in India that is now becoming finished on account of this Western influence. So that is now practically finished. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement begins from the understanding that "I am not this body." Therefore its activities are different from the activities of bodily conception of life. People cannot understand. That is the difficulty. Interviewer: Prabhu, you, in this country you have a whole body of religious thought which does not subscribe to the Hindu assumptions about the transmigration of the soul, and the culture itself is a very secular kind of culture. Prabhupāda: Which one? Interviewer: The American. And about eighteen months ago or more, if I remember right, there was a film, a documentary, on your school in Texas, on the National Broadcasting Company's program, which was very hostile, if not vicious, attack on your whole movement, the rearing of the small children. So my question is, what is it that made you bring your movement into a culture and a religious ethos which is hostile to begin with, with most of your major assumptions? Prabhupāda: So this is education. The Western people are not educated in the spiritual life. So our predecessors, our gurus, they are for educating people in the spiritual life. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, five hundred years ago, He advised Indians to go, first of all, make his life..., Indian should make his life perfect, and then he should go outside India and preach the perfectional life, how to become perfect in life. That was His mission. He said pṛthivīte āche yata. You understand Bengali? Interviewer: Yes. Prabhupāda: *So Indian life means para*-upakāra. They are in the darkness, others, in the darkness. They have no such culture, spiritual culture. India has got that culture, this Bhagavad-gītā. So one should make his life a practically Bhagavad-gītā life. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. And preach it to the world. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. And this order was not only... Because Caitanya Mahāprabhu happened to be a Bengali... He appeared in Nadia district, a district in Bengal. But He does not say the Bengalis; *He said the bhāratīs. Bharata-varṣa janma haila yāra. So it is India's mission to become exactly on the line of Bhagavad-gītā. That is also spoken by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that perfection of life means to understand Bhagavad-gītā. He said āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "You just become a guru and deliver this country." "This country" means wherever you are living-it doesn't matter whether in India or America or anywhere else*-you just deliver them. So to become guru means to save a person from the conditional life of matter. So long you become a materialistic person, that means you are under condition of material nature. So you have to get your freedom from the laws of material nature. That is your perfect life. But people in the Western countries, they do not know much of this freedom. India knew it, or some of Indians, they know it. But at the present moment they, being conquered or influenced by the Western culture, they are also losing their identity. Therefore my Guru Mahārāja ordered me to do something about the spiritual life in the Western countries. On account of this I came here. Interviewer: Can you briefly tell us what the difference, how your approach is different from the approaches of the other gurus who have come? You seen to have rather a unique place in... *Prabhupāda: First of all, we do not accept anyone as guru if he's not competent to understand Bhagavad*-gītā and preach it also. He's not a guru. The guru's definition given in the Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1], in the Fourth Chapter you'll find, vivasvān manave prāha manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt. *Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, this Bhagavad*-gītā philosophy or yoga system, first of all I spoke to the sun-god. And then he spoke to his son, Manu. Then Manu spoke to his son Ikṣvāku." In this way the knowledge comes down from the spiritual master to the disciple or from the father to the son. So unless one comes in this disciplic succession, he cannot become guru. Therefore I do not know all of them. All the swamis and yogis who came here, they do not belong to this paramparā system, so therefore they are not bona fide guru. They are presenting themselves as guru, but they are not guru. Therefore people are misled. People are misled, and this is the first time that we presented India's traditional philosophy and life as it is understood by the paramparā system. Therefore it is being so well received. Vivekananda came here, as you said, 1893, before my birth. I was born in 1896. But they have worked for, say, eighty-five years. What they have done? But I have worked here for seven or eight years. And it is now worldwide movement. Why? Because we presented the things as they are. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. Therefore it is effective. So if the things are presented as they are, the customers will automatically come. *Interviewer: Yesterday in my talks with your disciples I gathered that you have at least three of the āśrama*-dharmas in practice: brahmacarya, gṛhastha, and sannyāsa. Did you do this to suggest that your movement does not involve renunciation in the Western sense, in which they understand it, asceticism only, to retreat, to withdraw from society, to form a different, small spiritual community or fraternity, not interacting with the rest of society, not influencing society, not being influenced by society? In other words, was it your aim to suggest that the daily life of ordinary people can be built on the foundations of your philosophy? Prabhupāda: The thing is that human life, the system of society should be divided... Just like you are journalist, so you are not motor mechanics. But there is necessity of motor mechanics also and the journalist also. Is it not? Interviewer: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And you are journalist, you are not expected to become a motor mechanic or a medical man. But your function is also required in the society. Similarly, the Vedic society was divided into different sections. That is called varṇāśrama*-four varṇas, four āśramas. That is very scientific. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this system of division of society. It is perfect society. Therefore we are trying to introduce the varṇāśrama system, although it is very difficult nowadays. But if one becomes a devotee, which is above varṇāśrama-dharma, then the purpose is solved. In this age, although varṇāśrama-dharma is very scientific, and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this, but we are mostly trying to get to the topmost part of varṇāśrama, sannyāsa, or above that. That means Vaiṣṇava. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. One can immediately transcend the jurisdiction of three modes of material nature if he engages himself in the devotional service of the Lord. *So actually this varṇāśrama system is meant for bringing the man in the lower status of life to the higher status of life. It doesn't matter one is born in a low*-grade family. That is also said by Kṛṣṇa: māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. Pāpa-yoni, lower grade. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ [Bg. 9.32]. In the human society, woman, the vaiśya and the śūdra, they are considered in the lower status, not very intelligent. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. They can also become... So in the Western countries, according to Vedic calculation, they are mlecchas, yavanas, low grade. But Kṛṣṇa says ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, "He can also be elevated, to that extent as he can go back to home, back to Godhead." So this movement is directly giving the opportunity of Kṛṣṇa's service so that they can become immediately bona fide to the position in the highest grade of life, Vaiṣṇava, so that he can go back to home, back to Godhead. *Interviewer: The almost the whole world, and all civilizations, look down upon the varṇāśrama*-dharma as a system in which hierarchical and stratified conditions prevent human beings from progressing. They think of our system as... *Prabhupāda: They do not know what is progress. That I was talking with your Associated Press, press reporter. Just like they do not know that their material life means they are in the prison house for being punished. They are so dull headed they are taking the activities of punishment as regular life. A man is put into the prison house, and his engagement is breaking the bricks. So he has forgotten that "This breaking of bricks is not my business. I am meant for living freely outside the prison house." So these people, less intelligent people, they think that this material life of working hard day and night, just like the hogs and dogs, is general life. That is due to their ignorance. In the Bhāgavata it is said, nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1], that this human form of life, although we have got this body, and the hog has also got the body, the hog is working day and night... Perhaps you have seen in Indian village, the hog is loitering in the village. His only business is where to find stool, and eat it. And as soon as he eats, he becomes strong in sense, and then sex. The hog has no discrimination of sex-either mother or sister or anyone. So this sort of life, working day and night for stool, and then as soon as the body is strong, find out sex, never mind whether mother, sister or anyone... This is not human life; this is hog's life. Do you think it is human life? Interviewer: No. Prabhupāda: So we are not meant for that civilization. We are meant for the civilization by which one can understand his position, constitutional position, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Therefore our activities are different from the hogs and dogs. Interviewer: So what is generally taken here... I mean, this is the American bicentennial year, and the Declaration of Independence talks about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Are you suggesting then that what is taken to be life is actually the antithesis of life? What is taken to be liberty is actually enslavement? And what is assumed to be the pursuit of happiness is nothing more than a rat race in which you try to make the best of what you can? *Prabhupāda: They do not know what is happiness. Bhagavad*-gītā points out what is your distress. Can anyone say what is the actual distress? They do not know it. Distress they are taking as usual part of life. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. This is philosophy, to find out what is distress. This is directly said by Kṛṣṇa, that these are distresses, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, to take birth, to die, to become old and to become diseased. But they do not know it. Not only they, everyone, all over the world, they take it as part of life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. When a man becomes diseased, when a man becomes old, or when a man dies, they take it it is usual. They have been accustomed to these distresses so much that they do not take it as distress. So this is their ignorance. This is their ignorance. They do not know what is distress and they are struggling for moving the distress. Just like this independence. They do not know what is meaning of independence. Real independence is when you are free from these four kinds of distress. Does it mean that observing this kind of independence is real independence? It is simply fictitious. If you are not free from the laws of nature, nature will enforce you to die. Then where is your independence? Nobody wants to die, so why he's enforced to die? Nobody wants to become old man. Why he's enforced to become old man? But they have no brain to understand what is independence, what is happiness. They have taken distress as happiness. So that is due to lack of knowledge. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to elevate a person to the real standard of knowledge. Without knowledge a madman can say anything. A child can speak all nonsense. That is not knowledge. Knowledge is different. So the struggle for existence means to get out of distress, but the real distress they have set aside. The problem that "I do not want to die, but I'll be enforced to die," so what is the advancement in this connection? They might have, so big, big scientists, they have discovered many, many things, but where is that thing that "Take a pill and you'll never die. Take a pill, you'll never become diseased"? They can offer me... I had some abdominal pain, so they have given me dozens of medicine. But still they are not sure whether the pain will be cured. This is their science. So in this way things are going on, in ignorance, mūḍha. Therefore they have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā as mūḍha. So this is the civilization of the asuras, and without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, without any knowledge of Kṛṣṇa or without any knowledge of the Kṛṣṇa's instruction, people are grouped as duṣkṛtina, miscreants; mūḍhas, rascals; *narādhama, lowest of the mankind. And if you say that "So many people, they are educated highly in the university, how they can be taken as miscreants, rascals and lowest of the mankind?" the answer is māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ. They have got knowledge, so-called knowledge, but they are lacking in real knowledge. Knowledge means to get out of distress. That is knowledge. But the real distress remains as it is. They cannot avoid death, they cannot avoid birth, they cannot avoid old age. And still they are claiming they are making progress in happiness. So that is called illusion. Interviewer: Prabhu, the... Can you tell us a little bit about the plans you have for your project in India? *Prabhupāda: Yes, I wanted to start this movement from India. I even requested Mahatma Gandhi, that "Mahatmaji, you have got some respect all over the world, and you are known as a great student of Bhagavad*-gītā. Now you have got your sva-rājya, the Britishers have gone away. Let us preach Bhagavad-gītā." But I don't think I got any reply from him. Of course he was very busy man. My letter might have reached him or not reached him. The secretaries might have rejected. I think received from secretary, like that. But then after few days he was killed. So I was trying for this purpose in India. I approached many friends, that "You have got four sons. Give me one son so that I can train him how to become a real preacher of Bhagavad-gītā, how one can understand." Because Bhagavad-gītā is being misinterpreted. So I wanted to preach it as it is. That was my mission. So practically nobody joined me. Then I decided to come here. And these boys cooperated. So I have got great desire to... Because India is by nature Kṛṣṇa conscious, but our modern leaders keeping them suppressed. That is the difficulty. There are so many other difficulties, and leaders are misinterpreting Bhagavad-gītā. To tell you frankly, there are so many commentaries on Bhagavad-gītā by Dr. Radhakrishna, by Gandhi, by Tilak, by Aurobindo, or many others. But nobody has said that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." Do you admit or not? Has anybody said that, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. You are searching after God. Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Worship Him"? Nobody has stated. Am I right or not? Interviewer: I am not that... I have not read all the, I have read Gandhiji's, I have read Radhakrishna's, I have. *Prabhupāda: Gandhiji has preached or Dr. Radhakrishna has written, but who has preached that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is to be worshiped? Just like we are preaching. Here in America, you have seen our temple? How they are worshiping Kṛṣṇa. So Bhagavad*-gītā, main purpose is that. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So who has preached this? So, although they came, so many swamis, yogis, and politicians, they came, but they talked, what can I say? All irrelevant. Nobody spoke that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You worship Him." Nobody has said. This is the first time, I am saying. Do you agree or not? Interviewer: Yes. Do you think that this is because of the Western influence under which they have gone and you are...? Prabhupāda: No, no, they wanted to compromise with the Westerners. They did not come to teach, but they wanted to be victimized by the Western people. They had no strength to save themselves. They have no strength. They have no determination. Hodgepodge, that's all. Therefore it was not successful. Not a single man became Kṛṣṇa conscious. Even nowadays. Now Vivekananda is famous in India that "He preached in America, all Americans have become Vedantists," something like that. Now, practically, you have gone in Vṛndāvana? Interviewer: Yes. Prabhupāda: Recently? Interviewer: No, not recently. Prabhupāda: You have seen our temple? Interviewer: No, I have not. Prabhupāda: So we have got our temple, that is considered the best temple in Vṛndāvana. You can show the pictures. So thousands and thousands of Americans went to Vṛndāvana for our temple and other temples. But there is another Vivekananda, Ramakrishna āśrama, nobody went there. Not a single. So what preaching they have done, from practical point of view? So many men went to our temple. They had no inquiry even that "We have heard that there is a Ramakrishna Mission Temple here. Where it is?" It is not..., Vṛndāvana is not a very big city. Everyone knows. Nobody, not a single person went there. And they visited other temples. So what kind of preaching, hmm? What do you think? Interviewer: It seems to me that what you are saying is that you cannot have a religion, you cannot expect a religion to survive or prosper when the culture which is supposed to serve it is its opposite, is its antithesis. And that's why your movement, you are trying to suggest that the only way you can attain mokṣa, or liberation, or whatever, is through a particular kind of culture that you are propagating. *Prabhupāda: It is not..., it is the culture, it is the culture. Because you are suffering under material conditions and you are struggling for existence, that means you are struggling to get liberty. So this is the liberty. As it is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Mām upetya, find out this. Hari-śauri: Janma karma ca me divyam [Bg. 4.9]? Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." *Prabhupāda: Yes, this is liberty. But they do not know it. They simply make a show that they are scholar of Bhagavad*-gītā, but they do not know. They are reading Bhagavad-gītā, but they do not know how to get liberty. Neither they are interested. They want to stay here and subjected to the natural material condition, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. There is another verse, mām aprāpya? Aprāpya māṁ nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani, in the Ninth Chapter, I think. Aprāpya māṁ nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyāsya, aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā... [Bg. 9.3]. Hari-śauri: Aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā, Aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyāsya parantapa... *Prabhupāda: Aprāpya māṁ nivartante mṛtyu*-saṁsāra-vartmani. "The teachings that I am giving, if one is not faithful to accept it, the result will be aprāpya mām, he'll never get Me, and he'll remain in the cycle of birth and death." They do not know it, what is cycle of birth and death, how one can get out of it. Going on. Just like the flies with great force falls in the fire. They are very busy. What is their busy-ness? Falling in the fire. So this is going on. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is just to save the people who go down by the force, enforced by the laws of material nature in the cycle of birth and death. Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: [Bg. 2.13] "You have to accept another body." But suppose you have got now Indian body; *next birth if you get a dog's body, then what is your success? But nature will work. You do not know what is the nature's law. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Neither you can check nature's law, so what is the value of your so*-called activities, jumping? There's no value. Interviewer: One last question then. What you are saying, the thrust of your movement is that true religion is not something that you just believe, it is what you are. *Prabhupāda: You believe or not believe. A fool man's, fool's belief is different from a learned man's understanding. So if he says that "I believe in it," nature's law is different. Nature will not care whether you believe or not believe. It will work. Just like if you have infected some disease, so you are getting fever. Now if I say "My dear Mr. such and such, now you infected smallpox. Therefore symptoms are there." And if you say, "No, no, I don't believe in it." So will you be protected from the laws of nature? So this is rascal's proposal, "I believe," "I don't believe." You believe or not believe, who cares for you? If you have infected, kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. Find out. After death you are going to get another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So how you can know what kind of body you are going to get? First of all generally they don't believe transmigration. So they believe or not believe, the process is going on. So this is going on in the modern world, "I don't believe it." You believe or not believe, you cannot check the nature's law. But their dull brain cannot understand it that nature's law is very, very strong. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14], but thinking that they'll conquer over nature. That is their proposal, is not, Bali-mardana? They think that they'll conquer over the laws of nature. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes. *Prabhupāda: Such foolish things are going on. So we are trying to save, by presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, to save these fools and rascals from a dangerous type of civilization. This is the sum and substance. *Interviewer: Thank you, Prabhupāda. Ānanda*-mohana *Prabhupāda: Ānanda*-mohana. Jaya (end) *Morning Walk-*-July 17, 1976, New York Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Go ahead, let's go, just go. Prabhupāda: (beak) ...in this bus. Kīrtanānanda: Oh, you traveled in the bus. Yes, it was comfortable. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, there's about two hundred and fifty devotees here now. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Make the whole city your (indistinct). Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very nice. We can handle all of these devotees, I think, very comfortably. Prabhupāda: All facilities are there. Kīrtanānanda: Kṛṣṇa is giving all facility. [break] Prabhupāda: ...distributing free, thirteen hundred or thirteen thousand? Kīrtanānanda: Thirteen thousand. Prabhupāda: Daily. Kīrtanānanda: That is inconceivable wealth. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: That is inconceivable wealth. And they were fully decorated. Rāmeśvara: We can never imagine where all those cows were able to be situated. Prabhupāda: No... The whole world. Rāmeśvara: Full of cows. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, a few years ago we couldn't conceive of distributing twenty thousand Back to Godheads a month. Prabhupāda: We started with five hundred. What was that machine? Kīrtanānanda: Mimeograph. Then I think it went to two thousand then to five thousand. Rāmeśvara: Now for December we are printing two million copies. Last year we printed one million copies, so this year we must double. Two million copies in one month. Kīrtanānanda: Wonderful. Prabhupāda: It is all Kṛṣṇa's mercy. You have seen the first copy? They have brought photograph from which library? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Congress Library in Washington. They found the original... Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not know how they got my... Rāmeśvara: Oh, your original, from India. Prabhupāda: Yes, 1944, the first copy. I get them from selling. Perhaps they had been, American. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very thick, it was a thick magazine. Prabhupāda: In those days I was spending three hundred rupees per month. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was a lot. Prabhupāda: Yes, three hundred rupees, nowadays at least ten times. Three hundred ten times? Kīrtanānanda: Three thousand. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At least three thousand. I think even perhaps more, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, not less than. Kīrtanānanda: Say five hundred dollars a month? Prabhupāda: And I was not getting any return. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How were you getting so much money? Prabhupāda: My income, poor income, from my business. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. (aside:) Prabhupāda took us past Seventy*-second Street, showed us this place. Rāmeśvara: He showed us the fruit store where he would buy fruit. Prabhupāda: Harer nāma [Ādi 17.21]. Kīrtanānanda: Those early days. My best memories are those early days. Especially the morning classes, when you'd be sitting behind the desk... Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...and the sun would just be coming in. Prabhupāda would talk for an hour. Prabhupāda: Only Hayagrīva, you and... Kīrtanānanda: Umāpati. Rāmeśvara: Mukunda. Prabhupāda: Not Mukunda. One, that... Kīrtanānanda: Sometimes Carl would come, sometimes Jim Green. Not very often, they wouldn't come. Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda later on. Kīrtanānanda: Rāyarāma would come. Prabhupāda: Rāyarāma. Kīrtanānanda: Satsvarūpa came, started coming, and he would go to work after class. Prabhupāda: Ah. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Always very responsible. Prabhupāda: At that time Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja was taking one cāpāṭi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew! Only? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nothing else? Prabhupāda: I would offer, he would take one or two, that's all. Later on, one dozen. (laughter) And that boy? Kīrtanānanda: Trayādhīśa. Prabhupāda: He would take at least twenty, cāpāṭis. Devotees: Wow! Prabhupāda: "Trayādhīśa, can I offer you?" "Yes." I gave four. Again finished, again four. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You must have been surprised to see how much they could eat. Prabhupāda: Um, I was not surprised. He was young man, very stout and strong. Kīrtanānanda: Originally, we all ate from Prabhupāda's plate though. There was one plate of prasādam. And Prabhupāda would just give little, little to everybody. And everybody would be satisfied. Rāmeśvara: It is the great weapon, prasādam. Prabhupāda: I used to keep some prasādam, anyone would come I would give. Kīrtanānanda: After class also you always distributed some prasādam. After kīrtana and class. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was clapping my hand. In meeting, I used to collect not less than six dollars, not more than twenty dollars. And that was... Rāmeśvara: Daily. Prabhupāda: Not daily. Kīrtanānanda: Three times a week. Prabhupāda: Three times. [break] ...used to come sometimes. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda said he sold his books then; they ordered his books. Prabhupāda: Yes, they purchased my books. In Butler also, many churches would purchase. Rāmeśvara: This month the first volume of the Eighth Canto is going to the printers. Prabhupāda: Seventh Canto, last volume you saw. Kīrtanānanda: Jaya. Rāmeśvara: That reporter yesterday, he was surprised you had written so many books. Kīrtanānanda: Any intelligent man would be surprised. It is unbelievable, so many books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is there an author who has written so many books? Kīrtanānanda: In so short time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't know how to control their senses. This is inspirational... Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda told us yesterday that one Sanskritist was appreciating the Harvard classics very much as being very important in educating people about Indian culture, but Prabhupāda's books are even better. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said "insurpassable." "Prabhupāda's books are insurpassable." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That man was the chief of the Benares school? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Sanskrit department. Prabhupāda: Very learned scholar in Sanskrit. Titles in Sanskrit. *Hṛdayānanda: [break] ...Ratha*-yātrā, "No Parking. Sunday Parade." *Prabhupāda: You convince the authorities of America that my logic, andha*-paṅgor nyāya. Who will explain this? Andha-paṅgor nyāya, lame and blind logic. Hari-śauri: Ah, lame and blind. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes, I told a reporter that just a few days ago. *Prabhupāda: America is blind by money. Dhana*-madāndha, when one gets too much money he becomes blind. Dhana-durmadāndha. Tasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadāndha. To get too much riches means he becomes fool and blind. He doesn't care. So this blindness of America... And we Indians, we have no money, but we have got culture. Combine together, then things will be very nicely done for the good of the whole world. Simply money is not the end; there must be culture. Take that culture, Vedic culture, and use it by American money, then the whole world will be paradise, Vaikuṇṭha. In India one paper, Sunday, they have published a nice article about us: "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Catches On." Kīrtanānanda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness what? Prabhupāda: Catches on. Hari-śauri: It begins by saying that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has had an amazing cultural impact on India in the last two years. Prabhupāda: Stone houses or brick? *Bali*-mardana: Stone. Prabhupāda: Stone? *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Now they cannot afford to make it like that. Prabhupāda: In Jaipur still there are so many nice craftsmen, and they charge very little. *Bali*-mardana: Jaipur. Prabhupāda: Jaipur, yes. *Bali*-mardana: We should bring some to Māyāpura and live there... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Bali*-mardana: ...and train others. Prabhupāda: [break] Just like New Vrindaban they have a dozen brahmacārīs. Kīrtanānanda: They have an expert teacher, Gopīnātha. Prabhupāda: Also Los Angeles. [break] ...and big, big city like Calcutta, Bombay, there are many, many more pigeons. Why they are so small? Kīrtanānanda: They kill them. Prabhupāda: Kill. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They kill them? Devotee: They poison them. Kīrtanānanda: They put poison feed out. Prabhupāda: Ah, killing experts. Kīrtanānanda: This civilization is that "If you cause a little disturbance to my sense gratification, I will kill you." Prabhupāda: But there is civilization. I saw it practically, that there is no disturbance in our Pennsylvania farm. The cats, the dogs, the cows, the boys, children, they are living like family. In your farm also. Wonderful. The cats are not afraid of the dogs. It is very peaceful. [break] Hṛdayānanda: They are showing paintings from a museum in Spain. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...posters advertising Ratha*-yātrā. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...pure devotee will also come here and therefore he's (indistinct) bringing for you. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu goes with His associates, He does not go alone. Sa*-pārṣadam. Sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam. *There is saṅkīrtana*-yajña, everything will improve very gradually. [break] Now the government has not given any opposition. That is very good. In India, our own government is giving little opposition. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Constitution of the United States gives great deal of protection for civil rights, religious freedom. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are so advanced. Kīrtanānanda: But there's a lot of talk now that they aren't, so far as income tax is concerned. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: So far as our collecting money, they are going to maybe change some laws. There's a lot of talk about that now. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They've done that in India. Hṛdayānanda: The religious leaders have become such cheaters that the governments are thinking "Why shouldn't they pay taxes? They're just ordinary people." Prabhupāda: Best thing is collect and spend, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Don't bank a lot of money. Prabhupāda: No. Best buildings are on this Fifth Avenue, huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda. Stone buildings. They'll last for many hundreds of years. Kīrtanānanda: No, they will tear them down. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Beautiful buildings, look at them... Kīrtanānanda: On the lamp post here, green? Right here, on the street side, both sides. Our men went wild last night. We sent out a big party putting up these posters. The thing is nobody will see them today. They're in the temple. (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 17, 1976, New York Indian man: I came to offer my obeisances to you. I became a life member as a result of Gopāla Kṛṣṇa's talking to me. Prabhupāda: In Bombay? Indian man: No, sir, here. I came to offer you obeisances in Brooklyn temple, and I asked you a special permission as my Gurudeva, which you gladly gave me, to teach *Gītā* in Poughkeepsie, where I am. Since then I have been trying to do your work sincerely in Poughkeepsie. Prabhupāda: Poughkeepsie. Where it is? Indian man: It is hundred miles north of New York. I work there. I am an engineer, and I have been trying to spread Kṛṣṇa conscious movement of yours, trying to teach from your *Gītā* to the Indian community, and I have been slowly trying to get American people also involved. And, as I see, more and more American people are now coming in. And in fact, those people who are very steadfast, who come to attend my class, are the American people. I am very glad to see that they are taking very great interest. And... Prabhupāda: Indians are not taking so much. Indian man: No, sir, I'm... Prabhupāda: Indians are baḍa sāheb(?) (laughs) Indian man: Ah. You see they have been going to... Prabhupāda: Ready? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I wanted to just finalize when you would join the festival tomorrow. I wanted to fix that up, so I could, you know, just do that. We're leaving Fifty*-ninth Street at two o'clock, and we're reaching downtown, the park, at four o'clock. In other words, it takes two hours, the route. At four o'clock we're going to have a Winnebago. Winnebago is like a small bus which has a, it has a lavatory in it. Hari-śauri: Like Satsvarūpa Mahārāja's traveling bus. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. It has a bathroom in it. That's going to accompany the parade in case at any time you require it, that will be right there. So it can go alongside the cart. At four o'clock we'll arrive, and at about four*-thirty Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja will give a short introduction for you, and at four forty-five you'll speak. So at four forty-five you're expected to give the lecture. It begins at two o'clock at Fifty-ninth Street for two hours. Then by five or five-fifteen the whole thing will be over. So I wanted to know what time you would like to join the parade. Prabhupāda: So you suggest. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it depends on a number of things. One thing is your rest. After taking massage you take prasādam, and then your resting period. Another thing is how long you want to ride along on the cart. It depends on... I think it should depend on... I can't... No one can make that decision. We're agreeable to anything that you suggest. Devotees are enlivened simply that you're here in New York with us. Prabhupāda: So at two o'clock you start? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Prabhupāda: You want me at the starting point? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We want you to do simply what you feel would be best. Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the best? Starting point, my presence required? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it's not a question of required. I mean that's a very exciting time, you know, but I wouldn't say it's required. We're going to start. One way or the other, we have to start the parade. It's exciting at that time, but you could also join midway. Suppose you could also join at Thirty*-fourth Street instead of Fifty-ninth Street. Halfway is about Thirty-fourth Street. So you could join there. Prabhupāda: That will be better. Hari-śauri: That would be about three o'clock. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That would be at about three o'clock. It depends upon your resting period also. Prabhupāda: No, that I will adjust. That is not the thing. I want to know when my joining will be very good. That I want to know. At the beginning or the middle, in the last, that you have to decide. Then I shall adjust. In London, I think... Of course, the whole route I was present, but that was little troublesome because sometimes I am called by nature. But you say there will be a car. So under the circumstances, which time will be good? That you say. Then I shall adjust. That you consult, which time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, if I can have about five minutes, I'll ask a few people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then I'll adjust. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you're agreeable at any time as long as that convenience... That's a good convenience, I think, that we'll have that vehicle. Prabhupāda: That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I'll just inquire. This is a general idea of what's going on the whole day tomorrow. I'll leave it with Hari-śauri. Prabhupāda: The preaching is going on. Nobody has become our student? Indian man: Among the Indian people... Prabhupāda: Indian or European or American, it doesn't matter. Since you are preaching there, has anybody joined this movement? Indian man: No, sir. I have been begging. I've been begging people. Now I know that two American people will become steadfast, and I will make sure that they join the movement, but among the Indian people... Prabhupāda: Whether you have joined? *Indian man: I have joined. I'm a life member. I come to the temple. I study your books all the time. I have your photo. I do your ārati every day without fail. Without fail. Nayanābhirāma came to my house two weeks ago, and I showed him everything, Kṛṣṇa and your photo next to it, and I every day do pūjā. Complete vegetarian and we are doing ārati every day, first obeisances to you, my father*-mother, and Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Your father*-mother here? *Indian man: No. They are dead now. They have expired. But I still offer my obeisances to them. First obeisances to you, then to Kṛṣṇa, then to my father*-mother, and then I start my pūjā. Prabhupāda: That's... Indian man: And I do complete ārati and everything because I want your blessings. I wish that I have a guru like you every birth after birth. But one of the problem, Prabhupāda, personally, I have found among the Indian people is that because we are used to so many demigods, they still don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are so many arguments I get that like... *Prabhupāda: There is no question of argument. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, but if they do not accept Bhagavad-gītā as the authority, then they are fools. Indian man: Yes, they are. Prabhupāda: So fools cannot be enlightened. That is the difficulty. If they do not accept the authority, then they are fools. Indian man: Yes. After I teach *Gītā* and I try to tell them to please sing... *Prabhupāda: That is not their fault. Even the big, big leaders of India, even Gandhi, they do not know actually. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. The Bhagavad-gītā has been misinterpreted, misused by the leaders, by the politicians, by the so-called philosophers. Everyone has misused. Indian man: I'll tell you one thing, that Swami Chinmayananda... Prabhupāda: He's a great... Indian man: He's great, but I'll tell you what happened. Prabhupāda: "Great" means great fool. Indian man: Yes. In Third Chapter where Kṛṣṇa is saying, "Renounce your everything to Me." Okay? And the word matam is used, matam. Now Swami Chinmayananda is saying, "That's my opinion," that's what Kṛṣṇa is telling, and they will be freed of all the work. And you have written matam means scriptural injunctions. And I tried to show the students who come to the class that "This is the difference. Look at this, very big difference," because if Kṛṣṇa is only giving His opinion, then He's talking like a diplomat, not talking like God. But if He says, "This is the law..." And I explained to them that like Bible has got ten commandments... *Prabhupāda: And another thing, even Kṛṣṇa says, giving His opinion-that's taking it as it is*-Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. So He's the supreme authority. So supreme authority's matam is a high-court judgment. There is no argument anymore. The judgment is given by the high-court. Final decision. So if Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, then who can give him better opinion than Him? For argument's sake, even if He says... Any gentleman will say like that, that... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "You do it." He is Supreme Lord, He can force you, but He does not do that. So although His matam is the Supreme, but as a gentle preacher, He says, "That is My matam." But if you are sane, if you know that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority, then His matam is final. *Indian man: And that's why I try to show the difference to people, that "Please follow Prabhupāda's Gītā. And please make sure that when you read, you read Gītā As It Is." This is why I'm trying to show the differences to people. Personally there is only one question I have, and that is, throughout all the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatams that you have translated so far, I see all the time any, like Kardama Muni or other, all other great sages, whenever they do tapasya, every time Mahā-Viṣṇu comes down. Now I know that throughout other, even Back to Godhead, you have considered Mahā-Viṣṇu as an expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, yet Mahā-Viṣṇu is coming every time as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So what is the subtle position here? *Prabhupāda: There is no difference between... Just like... It has been explained in the Brahma*-saṁhitā. Just like one candle, then you kindle another candle, then you kindle another, another, another, another. So you say, "This is first, this is second, this is third, this is fourth..." But so far candle power is concerned, they are all the same. Either you take first or the second or the third, so far the candle power is concerned, that is all the same. Still, you have to say, "This is first, this is second, that is third, this is fourth..." Indian man: I was trying to... I was trying... *Prabhupāda: So God and His different expansions, they are of same power. Rāmādi*-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu, kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo... [Bs. 5.39]. *Indian man: Govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. *Prabhupāda: So He is existing with all the incarnations, rāmādi*-mūrtiṣu. So Rāma is not less than Kṛṣṇa, but He is incarnation. This is the conclusion. *Indian man: Because I was trying to refer to Govindāṣṭakam, Where it says, (sings) śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā āra gokuleśa gopāla govardhana*-nātha viṣṇu, jīveti amṛtamedhadevo govindaṁ dāmodaram ada vetti(?). He's saying, śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā āra gokuleśa gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu. That is what I was trying to see that is really... I know that say Kṛṣṇa's expansion is Mahā-Viṣṇu, but still, why do they say govardhana-nātha viṣṇu? That I was trying to understand. Please don't misunderstand me. *Prabhupāda: No, no, Govardhana... Every one is viṣṇu*-tattva. Viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, like that. So all of them on the Viṣṇu category. That's all. Viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti. Viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti [Bs. 5.46]. These things are there. So Godhead is viṣṇu-tattva. So sometimes Viṣṇu, sometimes Nārāyaṇa, sometimes Govinda, sometimes Kṛṣṇa, like that. *Indian man: That's very nice, because one can understand very well. Because I always took Mahā*-Viṣṇu as the expansion of Kṛṣṇa, but still, when I went to Govindāṣṭakam and then also like Brahma-saṁhitā says, yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā... [Bs. 5.48]. *Prabhupāda: Loma*-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ. *Indian man: ...jagad*-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya (Prabhupāda quotes same verse simultaneously) kalā-viśeṣo govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. So he says Mahā-Viṣṇu is even one expansion of Kṛṣṇa, yet in Govindāṣṭakam they say, govardhana, gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu, śrī kṛṣṇa rādhā gokuleśa, gopāla govardhana-nātha viṣṇu. *Prabhupāda: They're all viṣṇu*-tattva. Viṣṇu-sahasra-nāma-stotra. *Indian man: Because many people... At least among the Indians I get very big argument about it, that it is Mahā*-Viṣṇu who is Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Kṛṣṇa is only one avatāra of His. And I try to... *Prabhupāda: That argument is discussed in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Hari-śauri: First volume? Prabhupāda: Yes, first volume you see. You see. See the contents. You can't find it? When he is discussing somebody, says Viṣṇu is the origin? So children, how many? Indian man: No children. Prabhupāda: No children. Indian man: No children Prabhupāda: That is good than another. (laughs) No responsibility. Indian man: I have decided that in about five, ten years, I'll work that much only. Afterwards I'm going to go to work for you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Indian man: Because I don't find any more pleasures, you know, in anything. As I go on chanting and chanting and chanting, sometime, Prabhupāda... Oh, my first dream that came when I joined your movement... First dream that I came... And I told my wife about it in the morning. I said, first I saw a moon, and then I saw another large planet coming up, and then on the top of it I saw the lotus feet of the Lord. And when I saw the lotus feet of the Lord, I saw you coming on a swan and doing His pūjā. And I kept on shouting to my wife that "Please see Prabhupāda is here. Please see. He is doing pūjā of lotus feet of the Lord." And that was my first dream that came. Sometimes after chanting all the time I feel as if He is walking next to me. I can feel as if His bluish body is right next to me, and all the time I have a feeling that somebody is next to me, you know. I don't know whether I'm going crazy or I'm... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is already there. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. So? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I asked, I took a poll, census poll of about six or seven GBC men, including Kīrtanānanda, Rāmeśvara, Bali*-mardana, so many men who know New York, and they all thought that if you join the parade at Twenty-third Street... *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-third. At what time? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah, it'll be... It should be at about 3:15, like that. Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then it will be nice. Because the whole parade is about fifty*-four blocks, and you'll be riding for about nineteen blocks. It means your ride will take about forty-five minutes. Prabhupāda: So what time I'll going to start? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From here? Prabhupāda: Somebody will come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think I will probably come. Kīrtanānanda will also... Prabhupāda: At what time? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think, say, it's going to be either 2:45 or 3:00. Tomorrow morning I'll let you know. Prabhupāda: So at 3:00 I shall be ready. You can come and take me. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I think at 3:00... But then by the time we get in the car... I think it will work, 3:00 o'clock. Prabhupāda: That's all right. 3:00 o'clock, I'll be ready. You come and take. In the meantime, I shall finish my... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that will leave a little time for resting. The whole program should be over by about... Prabhupāda: So tomorrow I shall take lunch at 1:00. That's all. Then, by 3:00 o'clock, I shall be ready. (to Indian man:) (Hindi?) Kṛṣṇa is preparing you to join this movement wholeheartedly. It is very nice. Now you have got it? *Jayādvaita: Yes. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja quotes, ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. "All these incarnations of Godhead are either plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras, but Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself." Then he says, "The Bhāgavatam describes the symptoms and deeds of the incarnations in general and counts Śrī Kṛṣṇa among them. This made Sūta Gosvāmī greatly apprehensive. Therefore he distinguished each incarnation by its specific symptoms. All the incarnations of Godhead are plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras, but the primeval Lord is Śrī Kṛṣṇa. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the fountainhead of all incarnations. An opponent may say, 'This is your interpretation, but actually the Supreme Lord is Nārāyaṇa, who is in the transcendental realm. He, Nārāyaṇa, incarnates as Lord Kṛṣṇa. This is the meaning of the verse as I see it. There is no need for further consideration.' To such a misguided interpreter we may reply, 'Why should you suggest such fallacious logic? An interpretation is never accepted as evidence if it opposes the principles of scripture. One should not state a predicate before its subject, for it cannot thus stand without proper support.' If I do not state a subject, I do not state a predicate. First I speak the former and then the latter. The predicate of a sentence is what is unknown to the reader, whereas the subject is what is known to him. For example, we may say, 'This vipra is a greatly learned man.' In this sentence, the vipra is the subject, and the predicate is his erudition. The man's being a vipra is known, but his erudition is unknown. Therefore the person is identified first and his erudition later. In the same way all these incarnations were known, but whose incarnations they are was unknown. First the word ete, 'these,' establishes the subject, the incarnation. Then 'plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras' follows as the predicate. In the same way, when Kṛṣṇa was first counted among the incarnations, specific knowledge about Him was still unknown. Therefore the word Kṛṣṇa appears as the subject followed by the predicate, describing Him as the original Personality of Godhead. This establishes that Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead. The original Personality of Godhead is therefore necessarily Kṛṣṇa. Had Kṛṣṇa been the plenary portion and Nārāyaṇa the primeval Lord, the statement of Sūta Gosvāmī would have been reversed. Thus he would have said, 'Nārāyaṇa, the source of all incarnations, is the original Personality of Godhead. He has appeared as Śrī Kṛṣṇa.' " *Prabhupāda: So everything is given with logic and argument. Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. First of all He's grouped among the incarnations, but Kṛṣṇa is not incarnation. He's bhagavān svayam. Indian man: He comes original. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you argue against the authority of *Bhāgavatam*, then that argument has no value. *Indian man: That's where the problem in India is. Everyone is saying God is Mahā*-Viṣṇu, and Kṛṣṇa and Rāma are only avatāras, and that's where the big argument came in. In fact, I talked to so many... *Prabhupāda: Otherwise why Sūta Gosvāmī, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]? And Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. So how one can say like that? That means less intelligent. If Kṛṣṇa... If one accepts the authority of Bhagavad*-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Then how they falsely say? Aham ādir hi devānām. Find out this verse. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: Sarvaśaḥ. (Hindi) Indian man: No. Never. He has no reason to cheat us. He has no reason to lie. Hari-śauri: Shall I read the...? Prabhupāda: Umhm. Hari-śauri: "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for, in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." Purport? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: "As stated in Brahma*-saṁhitā, Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. No one is greater than Him; *He is the cause of all causes. Here it is also stated by the Lord personally that He is the cause of all the demigods and the sages. Even the demigods and great sages cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. They can neither understand His name nor His personality, so what is the position of the so*-called scholars of this tiny planet? No one can understand why the Supreme God comes to earth as an ordinary human being and executes such commonplace and yet wonderful activities. One should know, then, that scholarship is not the qualification necessary to understand Kṛṣṇa. Even the demigods and the great sages have tried to understand Kṛṣṇa by their mental speculation, and they have failed to do so. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is stated clearly that even the great demigods are not able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They can speculate to the limits of their imperfect senses and can reach the opposite conclusion of impersonalism, of something not manifested by the three qualities of material nature. Or they can imagine something by mental speculation. But it is not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa by such foolish speculation. Here the Lord indirectly says that if anyone wants to know the Absolute Truth, 'Here I am, present as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I am the Supreme.' One should know this. Although one cannot understand the inconceivable Lord who is personally present, He nonetheless exists. We can actually understand Kṛṣṇa who is eternal, full of bliss and knowledge, simply by studying His words in Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The impersonal Brahman can be conceived by persons who are already in the inferior energy of the Lord, but the Personality of Godhead cannot be conceived unless one is in the transcendental position. Because most men cannot understand Kṛṣṇa in His actual situation, out of His causeless mercy He descends to show favor to such speculators. Yet despite the Supreme Lord's uncommon activities, these speculators, due to contamination in the material energy, still think that the impersonal Brahman is the Supreme. Only the devotees who are fully surrendered unto the Supreme Lord can understand, by the grace of the Lord, that He is Kṛṣṇa. The devotees of the Lord do not bother about the impersonal Brahman conception of God. Their faith and devotion bring them to surrender immediately unto the Supreme Lord, and out of the causeless mercy of Kṛṣṇa, they can understand Kṛṣṇa. No one else can understand Him. So even great sages agree, 'What is ātmā? What is the Supreme? It is He whom we have to worship.' " Indian man: In my class I run into lot of arguments, especially from our Indian people, and this is one of the biggest arguments people pose. They say, "Why are you calling yourselves Vaiṣṇavas and not Kṛṣṇayas?" Prabhupāda: Hm? Indian man: If I call Kṛṣṇa, I accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then the question comes to me, "Why are you calling yourself Vaiṣṇavas? Why not Kṛṣṇayas?" *Prabhupāda: That already is explained, that Kṛṣṇa or Rāma, Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa, They are all viṣṇu*-tattva. Therefore Viṣṇu is the common word for everyone. Just like candle. Everyone is candle, but still, this is first candle, this is second candle, this is third candle, like that. So Godhead means all viṣṇu-tattva. They are not jīva-tattva. So therefore those who are devotee of God, they are called Vaiṣṇava. Hari-śauri: This specific Vaiṣṇava, that refers to Viṣṇu? Worshipers of Viṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇu asyra devataḥ iti vaiṣṇavaḥ.(?) Indian man: Throughout *Vedas* also, Viṣṇu is the yajñeśvara. Prabhupāda: The supreme, yes. Indian man: Yajño vai viṣṇuḥ. *Prabhupāda: Viṣṇur ārādhyate. Viṣṇur ārādhyate, nānyat tat*-toṣa-kāraṇam. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Viṣṇor ārādhanam. Ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param **. These are the śāstric..., that viṣṇor ārādhana. Kṛṣṇa-ārādhana is also viṣṇu-ārādhana. *Indian man: In fact, even Brahma*-saṁhitā, Brahmājī says, *"So Viṣṇu is creating all the planetary systems. He's in His yoga*-nidrā, He is the original Govinda, and I worship Him." So that is why both names are used so synonymously. And that is why people are questioning me, and I have difficulty to answer them. Although I accept Kṛṣṇa as original Personality of Godhead, but how to explain to them? Prabhupāda: No, these are the references. *Jayādvaita: In here also. Should I read the verse? "All other incarnations are potentially situated in the original body of the primeval Lord. Thus, according to one's opinion, one may address Him as any one of the incarnations." Purport: "It is not contradictory for a devotee to call the Supreme Lord by any one of the various names of His plenary expansions, because the original Personality of Godhead includes all such categories. Since the plenary expansions exist within the original person, one may call Him by any of these names. In Śrī Caitanya*-bhāgavata Lord Caitanya says, 'I was lying asleep in the ocean of milk, but I was wakened by the call of Nāḍā, Śrī Advaita Prabhu.' Here the Lord refers to His form as Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu." Translation: "Some say that Śrī Kṛṣṇa is directly Nara-Nārāyaṇa, others say that He is directly Vāmana. Some say that Kṛṣṇa is the incarnation of Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. None of these statements is impossible. Each of them is as correct as the others." Purport: "Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta states, 'According to the intimate relationships between Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the primeval Lord, and His devotees, the *Purāṇas* describe Him by various names. Sometimes He is called Nārāyaṇa; sometimes Upendra (Vāmana), the younger brother of Indra, King of heaven; and sometimes Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu...' " *Prabhupāda: They are all viṣṇu*-tattva. *Indian man: In fact, I remember very vividly that in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you wrote that it was Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu who came down to bless Dhruva Mahārāja when the planetary system started trembling due to his tapasya here. Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. This is why people are questioning me continuously that "How can you call Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead and not Viṣṇu?" And I say "All are viṣṇu-tattva." But it is very difficult to explain to them the actual position of Kṛṣṇa, because only through chanting... *Prabhupāda: That is decided by Bhāgavatam, ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28], that tu, the name Kṛṣṇa, in the incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa is also included, but this Kṛṣṇa is the origin. Indian man: Prabhupāda: So we have to take the direction. So that is also explained. Even if you say, "Kṛṣṇa is Vāmana," there is nothing wrong. If you believe that Kṛṣṇa is incarnation of Viṣṇu, there is nothing wrong. Indian man: I don't believe that. Prabhupāda: No, no, others. Others... Indian man: I believe Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Prabhupāda: Others. We simply accept, "Yes it is all right." That's all. So that's a fact, because when Kṛṣṇa comes, He comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. *Indian man: I ask them then that "Explain the three Viṣṇus*-Mahā Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu and Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Even Viṣṇu Himself has expanded, what to talk of Kṛṣṇa." And then I ask them that "Kṛṣṇa came from which Viṣṇu? You tell me. If you can tell me that, then I will accept that Kṛṣṇa came from Viṣṇu. But if not, you have to accept my statement that Kṛṣṇa is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead. And you will not know Him unless you chant. Unless you chant." *Prabhupāda: Sometimes Mahā*-Viṣṇu wanted to see Kṛṣṇa. That is mentioned in the Bhāgavata, and He took Arjuna with Him. Indian man: That's right. That's right. My father, mother, did their entire lifetime pūjā of Śrīnāthajī, Śrīnāthajī. Prabhupāda: Śrīnāthajī is Gopāla. Indian man: Śrīnāthajī, we consider Him as Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, He is Kṛṣṇa. He's our Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. It is decided by the court. Śrīnāthajī, there are... Mādhavendra Purī's worshipable Gopāla... He discovered Gopāla in Govardhana. That Gopāla was delivered to... Who is the ācārya? Vallabhācārya. And it is decided by the court that Śrīnāthajī originally belongs to Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava, by the court. This Mādhavendra Purī is the spiritual master of Īśvara Purī. And Īśvara Purī is the spiritual master of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So from Mādhavendra Purī is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. So his Deity is Gopāla. That Gopāla is Śrīnāthajī. *Indian man: When I was a young boy, eight years old, I went to Śrīnāthajī with my father, mother, and there I had to take the brahma*-samāna,(?) which is the oath, taking of the oath in front of the Mahārāja and the priest of the Śrīnāthajī temple. And is that equal to initiation, or is that just a ceremony by itself? Prabhupāda: No, initiation is another ceremony. Indian man: What are the qualifications required for a person in working life like me, household like me, like myself, to get initiated? Prabhupāda: No, you can be initiated. There is no... Because you are following the rules and regulations. That's it. We initiate a person who follows the rules and regulations. Indian man: I am following all your rules and regulations. Prabhupāda: Then you can be initiated. Indian man: Yes. I think we have taken enough of your time, Prabhupāda. I would love to stay with you, and I would like to invite you to... Prabhupāda: Why don't you stay here in our temple? Indian man: Probably I might. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got ladies' department and gentleman's department. You can stay. Indian man: I would like to invite you to Poughkeepsie and stay with us if it is possible. Prabhupāda: Yes. How long it is? Indian man: Hundred miles north from here. Prabhupāda: So by car? Indian man: Yes, by car. Prabhupāda: It will take about four, five hours. Indian man: No, two and a half hours. Two and a half hours. Prabhupāda: Traveling is little difficult for me. So there are many Indians? *Indian man: There are about hundred and fifty Indian people. Thirty percent of them are Ārya*-samājīs. They don't believe in anyone except doing (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Second edition of Muhammadans. Indian man: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Ārya*-samājī means another edition of the Muhammadans. Indian man: Some are Śiva followers, Śaivaites. *Prabhupāda: The Ārya*-samājīs, they do not believe in God, so how they are Śiva followers? Hodgepodge. No sāmajīs but hodgepodge. Indian man: Yes, it is. They don't know what is Personality of Godhead. Prabhupāda: Opportunity followers. Indian man: Hodgepodge, that's right. Prabhupāda: Opportunists. Useless. They have no value. *Indian man: Thirty percent of the Indian families, they are Ārya*-samājīs, and twenty percent are South Indian Śaivaites. I get a lot of argument that "Rāmacandrajī did the pūjā of Śivajī at Rāmeśvaram, so Śiva is greater than Rāma." I said, "Consider this, that Rāma was so humble to do the pūjā of Śivajī, but in Rāmastotrāṇi it says rāma rāmeti rāmeti ramerama manorane, shastranama tat tulyam sri-rama-nama ramarame.(?) That is what Śivajī is telling Pārvatī. Śivajī is telling Pārvatī in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]." I say, "Why does Śivajī say that? Why is Śivajī sitting in samādhi? Why not Kṛṣṇa sitting in samādhi? Why not Rāma sitting in samādhi? Why not Mahā-Viṣṇu sitting in samādhi? Because Śivajī's position is to serve Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa as Rāma is so humble that He came and even did His devotee's pūjā." Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa is afraid of mother Yaśodā's rope. But that does not mean He is no longer the Supreme Lord. Indian man: Exactly, exactly, exactly. Prabhupāda: He's afraid of "Mother, don't bind Me." So everyone is afraid of Kṛṣṇa, and He is afraid of His mother's rope. So does it mean Kṛṣṇa has become no more the Supreme? Indian man: : In fact, you might have heard of Satya Sai Baba in India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Now there are some people in our community there at Poughkeepsie, they are all followers of Satya Sai Baba, and they were telling me that "Anyone you pray, Kṛṣṇa, Rāma, Viṣṇu, it comes to Satya Sai Baba." I said, "Don't tell me that nonsense," I said. (laughter) "Satya Sai Baba is not Kṛṣṇa, and don't tell me that." In fact for Guru Pūrṇimā they invited me to Satya Sai Baba's bhajana. I said, "No, I have my guru. I'm very happy. Don't disturb me. I have Kṛṣṇa, I have my guru, and I have my path. I don't have to go to anybody's gurus, and I don't have to take anyone's teachings." I say, "My *Gītā* is here, written by Prabhupāda. I follow it, and that's it. I don't have to have extraordinary brains to follow everyone's *Gītā* or everything else. Here is my path." Prabhupāda: In South America there was a great criticism? Hari-śauri: South Africa. Prabhupāda: South Africa. Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Of Satya Sai. Hari-śauri: One man, he challenged that he could prove that Sai Baba is a fake. So he's written so many letters to Sai Baba to challenge him, but he's never received a reply. So that paper gave this article criticizing Sai Baba like that and other gurus, and then in the same paper there was a very nice article concerning our Jagannātha Cart Festival. So practically they were appreciating that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is bona fide and these other people are nonsense. Indian man: Right. In fact, several people, even in our community in Poughkeepsie, received letters from Satya Sai Baba's followers that "Here is a letter. Make ten copies and send the ten copies to ten different people. If you don't, Satya Sai Baba's thunderbolt will come and strike your family, and they'll be destroyed." Now no guru ever puts a thunderbolt on his devotee, and I said, "If that is a guru, I'll stay ten thousand miles away from him, because my guru is very kind and he'll bless me." I said, "No guru should ever put a thunderbolt on his devotee." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. You can turn towards this. *Indian man: At Monticello in Catskill... I don't know if you know it. Monticello in Catskill Mountains here? Just about fifty*-sixty miles north, there is Muktananda. Hari-śauri: Muktananda. Indian man: Muktananda. And he has got his retreat, and some of our people go there, and I heard from them that he is teaching... He is quoting *Gītā*, but if you go to his room, oṁ namaḥ śivāya. I said, "This is contradiction." I said, "If he is a Śiva follower, he should teach Śiva Purāṇa and not *Gītā*." I said... Prabhupāda: But they are actually impersonalists. They neither follow Śiva nor Kṛṣṇa. They are impersonalists. Their idea is the Absolute Truth is imperson. You can worship Him either as Śiva or as Kṛṣṇa, as you like. That is their philosophy. Yes. Indian man: Yes. But this is the height of hypocrisy, to teach *Gītā* and to chant oṁ namaḥ śivāya. *Prabhupāda: No, because they say, "Either way, you become impersonal at the end. You Brahma*-liṅga; *(?) you become one with Brahma. But before you become Brahma*-liṅga, you can imagine some form, either Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu or Śiva or Durgā, the same thing." That is their... Indian man: In fact some of the arguments that I received were... "If you go to heaven, let's say, Vaikuṇṭha, then you become... You join the impersonal Brahman. Then you have nothing else to do." He says, "In material world we have family. We have something to do." I said, "If you believe in impersonalism, you have nothing to do. If you believe in personalism, you will serve the Lord there." Prabhupāda: Impersonal means if you have nothing to do, then you'll become mad. Indian man: Exactly. Prabhupāda: And again you come back to this material world. Indian man: Now, Prabhupāda, I have taken too much of your time. I want to thank you very much. I humbly offer my obeisances. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Indian man: I wish that I can continue your work. Prabhupāda: Please do. You'll be happy. Kṛṣṇa will make you happy. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu [Bg. 18.69]. (end) *Morning Walk-*-July 18, 1976, New York (in car) Prabhupāda: ...in the procession? Rāmeśvara: This bus is for carrying prasādam. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Maybe they should go in the procession though. That would look impressive, wouldn't it? Prabhupāda: All our cars behind. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We could have had our twenty*-five vans and eight buses. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Decorated, no? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja, did you hear that? The three buses should go in the procession. Prabhupāda: Full opulence. Rāmeśvara: Full opulence. *Prabhupāda: Ṣaḍ*-aiśvarya-pūrṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What an idea! *Ādi*-keśava: The buses are all going down there to take care of the prasādam. Rāmeśvara: They're carrying the prasādam. *Ādi*-keśava: And also to do the... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cooking the poppers. *Ādi*-keśava: And also do the treasury. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I want three buses together in the... Prabhupāda: All cars, also. Rāmeśvara: The cars. (laughs) Some of the cars don't look appropriate. Some of the cars are used cars, they do not look very nice. Prabhupāda: No, no. Good cars. *Rāmeśvara: The nice*-looking cars. Prabhupāda: Good cars. This car and the other van. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, this car will be there. So that's nice. Three buses, Ādi*-keśava, will you take care of that? *Ādi*-keśava: And the nice-looking vans? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did the other two buses arrive? *Ādi*-keśava: I know only of the two that are here. Rāmeśvara: [break] ...were just amazed at the dancing of Lord Caitanya. How Lord Jagannātha would stop His car just to see. It says that Lord Jagannātha is maintaining the whole universe, so who can carry Him? Only by His sweet will for His own pastimes can He be moved. And the cart that moves Him is as tall as Mount Sumeru. Prabhupāda: Potamkin..., and what was that in Washington, Potomyer? Devotees: Potomac. Rāmeśvara: And you wrote that just like the cart of Jagannātha is compared to Mount Sumeru, similarly, in London they were comparing it to that statue of Lord Nelson. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lord Nelson's column. Rāmeśvara: Lord Nelson's column. Prabhupāda: Rival to Nelson. They published, Guardian. Rāmeśvara: The Guardian, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good newspaper. Prabhupāda: It has become against. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe because... Prabhupāda: It is political. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe because of that. *Prabhupāda: Only politics. So mean*-minded, they have no idea even beyond politics. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (japa) Where are the rathas now? *Ādi*-keśava: They're starting to pull. Rāmeśvara: Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's one of them. Rāmeśvara: The men are getting ready to pull them now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, the tops are down though. Rāmeśvara: For the wires. They have to be down to move them. Sixty men are already engaged in pulling the ratha carts. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Since five this morning. Rāmeśvara: Sixty men. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where are you going, Ādi*-keśava? *Ādi*-keśava: Well, they're pulling the cart up. Can't really go right down next to them. It's a very steep incline. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ādi*-keśava, can you just go and let us see the carts? Rāmeśvara: Yes, just drive right up to it, they should wait. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can wait for a minute. It's not budging, so there's no loss. Rāmeśvara: No, they announced that this cart was not moving, and they needed fifteen more men. They announced that in the temple room. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Go down there, Ādi*-keśava. Prabhupāda: More fifteen men required? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very big. Others have been moved? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Rāmeśvara: Yes, all three are here. *Ādi*-keśava: They weigh fourteen thousand pounds each. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How do you like them, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, they are nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Strong? Strong enough? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it's going to move because you're here, Prabhupāda. Rāmeśvara: Oh, they have mirrors on the wheels. *Ādi*-keśava: Now they are moving. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Uh*-oḥ, it's caught in the wire up there. Rāmeśvara: That's..., in Philadelphia it was constantly catching. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are mirrors all over the wheels, Rāmeśvara. Rāmeśvara: Yes, I see. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where are the cāmaras? *Ādi*-keśava: They have the cāmaras. They'll be put on afterwards. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is this the small one or the medium size? *Ādi*-keśava: This is the big one. (devotees shouting "Prabhupāda! Balarāma!") Rāmeśvara: By chanting your name they are getting so much strength. Satsvarūpa: They are chanting "Prabhupāda, Balarāma." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the best combination. There's Jayānanda leading the way. Prabhupāda: Ah, the wheels are very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really. Jayānanda has made good for all the other wheels. *Ādi*-keśava: This is the cart you will ride, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Lady Subhadrā's cart from Chicago. We borrowed it. *Ādi*-keśava: It's our cart now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Could have been painted, the wheels. Rāmeśvara: Thick coat of lacquer or varnish. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On the wheels. Rāmeśvara: Yes, right on the wood. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the only place that was varnished in Philadelphia? The rest is painted, right? Rāmeśvara: I believe so. *Ādi*-keśava: Simply by your presence, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the carts will move. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those look like good ropes. *Ādi*-keśava: He said they are made out of some nylon, very strong. Rāmeśvara: Lord Jagannātha was carried by... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wheels are all right? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow, they are painted nicely. It's going to be a very attractive ceremony. Prabhupāda: So all the cars should go also, behind. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have some..., I think we have a lot of good vans here, Rāmeśvara. Rāmeśvara: We can arrange for it at prasādam. That's the time when everyone should be there. Prabhupāda: Jaya. (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very nicely made, everything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya. Thank you for your blessings, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Look at those spires! Prabhupāda, do you see that spire? There's a spire at the top. Rāmeśvara: Right at the top, right under the canopy on that cart. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's going to be placed on top. Rāmeśvara: And that must be a flag on top. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Golden colored? Rāmeśvara: Like gold. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huge spire. Prabhupāda: Not very heavy? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The spire? No, it's made of foam, that, styrofoam. It couldn't weigh more than five, ten pounds. Rāmeśvara: But it looks very, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It looks very heavy though. That's a good idea, because it won't weigh the canopies down. Rāmeśvara: That's a very good idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Carve it out of styrofoam. It's a big festival. The first year three chariots. Rāmeśvara: Whew! They're going to simply be astonished when the public sees this. The newspapers, they will just be..., they've never seen anything like it. They cannot imagine it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How big are those wheels, Rāmeśvara? Rāmeśvara: Oh, they must be at least eight feet. *Ādi*-keśava: Seven and a half. Rāmeśvara: Seven and a half feet. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Jaya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's the park. Prabhupāda: Very nicely made. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Jaya! Prabhupāda: Jaya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayānanda looks exhausted. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's worked so... Rāmeśvara: Staying up all nights, working. *Ādi*-keśava: For five days he hasn't gone to sleep. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Five days and nights he's worked continuously. Prabhupāda: Jaya. [break] *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...this city, this will be a small parade with some hand*-pulled floats. Another trick of the Hare Kṛṣṇas. Prabhupāda: Bali Mahārāja was asked for three feet of land. "Very good. You speak so nicely, such intelligent, but You are boy, You do not know how to ask. I can give You a big island." "No, I must be satisfied as I require. I don't want more. Only three feet, that's all." Rāmeśvara: That story is in the Eighth Canto, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. I'm going now with that story. [break] "Rascal, if you give like that, where you will stay? He'll take everything!" Smārta brāhmaṇa. Simply considering "How I shall live?" (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Materialist. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did Bali Mahārāja reply? Prabhupāda: He rejected guru. "You are not guru." Rāmeśvara: Śukrācārya. Satsvarūpa: But that guru told him to worship Viṣṇu officially. Prabhupāda: No, he was by nature Viṣṇu, Vaiṣṇava, like the grandfather, Prahlāda Mahārāja. Satsvarūpa: But he was a demon. Prabhupāda: Who? Satsvarūpa: Born as a demon, in a demon family, not a demon. *Prabhupāda: Demon family. Viṣṇu*-dveṣī(?). Still, they are kṣatriyas. Just like the Europeans and Americans, they were kṣatriyas, now they have become demons. Actually they are kṣatriyas. I have studied. And the Jews are vaiśyas. (laughter) Rāmeśvara: The Jews are vaiśyas. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why they call them the American Marwaris. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. They know how to do business and earn money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A lot of your disciples are Jewish. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they know how to make money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They take up your idea of book distribution and they make all the money from it. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Everything can be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vacaḥ. [break] Rāmeśvara: Sky is very clear. Prabhupāda: Yes, good morning. When the sky is clear the Englishmen call "good morning." This is the origin of "good morning." Because unfortunately, in their country the sky is never clear. If by chance some day it is clear, they say "Oh, it is a good morning." That is the origin of that. One Englishman told me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But now they always greet each other by saying "Good morning, sir." Prabhupāda: No, it has become now a phrase, but originally the word originated when the morning was good, because that is a great fortune for them. (laughter) Yes, in London I was three months; always gloomy, damp, cloudy. Therefore I, television said, they asked, "What is your idea of hell?" and "This is hell, London. London is hell." He stopped. He did not ask anything more. This is hell. Simply by big, big buildings, you are keeping as heaven, but it is the hell. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The British propagated in India though that everything was like milk and honey... Prabhupāda: That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...in Britain. Prabhupāda: They propagated the Thames River as very big river. And when I first saw it, it is canal. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Canal. And the Ganges they said was nasty. Thames was a river and the Ganges was... *Prabhupāda: Jamesford, Lord James. That Jamesford is a village only. Some big man, little, take the title lord and go and become governor there. And when some Indian comes they say that Lord Jamesford was traveling in third*-class compartment in railway. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These buildings are not actually made of this stone. They are made of brick, covered by stone. Prabhupāda: But they are very nicely made. It is not possible now to construct such nice... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kīrtanānanda is constructing like this, though. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Museum of Natural History. Actually, it is made of stone. The museums are... Prabhupāda: Government building, they can stand at the cost of taxpayer. [break] West Central Park? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Central Park West, it's called. *Rāmeśvara: That portion there, Śrīla Prabhupāda, through the trees there is a green dome-I don't know if it can be seen now*-that is the Planetarium of the Museum of Natural History. All atheistic arguments are presented there. Prabhupāda: What is that argument? Rāmeśvara: All their arguments that life comes from matter, that the universe has no life, or at least that there are just all chemical reactions are the cause of creation of stars; that there are many suns. All these arguments. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have in that museum many scales, and you can go on the scales and weigh yourself as you would weigh on different planets. I remember when I was a child I used to go on one scale after another. Rāmeśvara: They speculate that if you were on the moon planet, say you weigh one hundred fifty pounds on earth, if you were on the moon planet you would weigh much less. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Twenty*-five pounds, one-sixth. Rāmeśvara: And you would be able to be so light that you could jump very high. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Almost floating. Prabhupāda: How they have understood these things? From here? Rāmeśvara: From here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it confirmed in Bhāgavata? Prabhupāda: First thing is that it is full of life. Full of very, very intelligent demigods. They have never gone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If a devotee were to go to the moon, would he see all of these very intelligent demigods? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyone would see them. (laughs) But nobody's gone. Rāmeśvara: No, he would see the cities also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if someone actually went there, they would see all this life. It's not that you have to have a special vision to see it. Prabhupāda: But you have to qualify yourself. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To get there. But once getting there, I mean it's plainly visible to the eyes. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda gave the example that Arjuna, he was qualified, so that he went to Indraloka planet one time, and he saw with his eyes the cities, the palace of Indra. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he was tempted. Arjuna was tempted when he went to Indraloka. But he closed his eyes. Prabhupāda: No, descriptions are there of Indraloka. The pavements with pearls. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. Prabhupāda: That is described, in the eighth chapter you'll find, er, Eighth Canto. Rāmeśvara: In the Seventh Canto they described the palace of Indra, because Hiraṇyakaśipu had lived there. How he was living there, and the walls of his palace are studded with jewels. There's a nice description. What to speak of an ocean of milk, there's so many things they cannot imagine. [break] (walking) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The buses, you know the windows, some of the windows are broken a little bit*-you saw them. Do you think they will look good in the parade? It's all right if the windows are not all... Prabhupāda: Who is going to see? [break] Hṛdayānanda: Great American paintings. What they consider to be great American paintings. Hari-śauri: It's an art exhibition. [break] Prabhupāda: In London they have got such a nice... Rāmeśvara: You think one day, Prabhupāda, maybe these big buildings will be our temples? Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, our executive office. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rāmeśvara will have his office here. Rāmeśvara: Look how interested they are in China. They have a collection of Chinese paintings. Prabhupāda: Why not our paintings? [break] ...were constructed? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think around the turn of the century, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Most of the big buildings like this here were constructed at that time. [break] Prabhupāda: [break] ...prohibited? Hari-śauri: In the park? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is written there. Hari-śauri: Because they don't want the park full of drunks. Rāmeśvara: The children, they don't want them soliciting children or the children to drink anything. It's to protect the children. Prabhupāda: That means it is bad. Devotee: Yes. Rāmeśvara: They know it is bad, but they say that everyone has to make his own choice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They know it is bad, but they like it. Prabhupāda: Will these parents like that the children may have liberty to follow a dark path? Will the father like? Rāmeśvara: No. Prabhupāda: Then why the government doesn't...? Hari-śauri: They're making too much revenue to stop selling it. Prabhupāda: That is not good government. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The parents are bad also. Rāmeśvara: They put an age limit on it. They say you can only buy liquor when you have reached a certain age. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They want the children to be good, but the parents are bad. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They want the children to be good, but the parents are all bad. Rāmeśvara: I think you have to be eighteen years old. Prabhupāda: Then you become bad. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Before you become bad. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Very good philosophy. Eighteen years, you become bad. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All their culture of goodness is wasted. Rāmeśvara: Also there are these nightclubs, you have to be a certain age before you can go in. *Prabhupāda: "Afro*-American Art." What is this? Hṛdayānanda: I think it means art by American black persons. *Rāmeśvara: Afro*-American means people with dark-skinned bodies, they have painted these paintings. Hari-śauri: One of the big problems that you read about a lot now is how parents are confused about how to educate their children, because there are so many different standards, and they don't know how their children will turn out anymore. *Prabhupāda: Here is our standard*-to make him devotee. Hṛdayānanda: China. Rāmeśvara: These are Chinese art paintings. They are having a special exhibit of Chinese art. *Prabhupāda: Afro*-American, why not Indo-American? *Bali*-mardana: There is an Indian exhibition at a different museum right now. This museum also has Indian exhibitions sometimes. *Satsvarūpa: One of the biggest art professors in this country saw our books recently, and he said he's very interested in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, that he thinks it's a new kind of art that your devotees are painting. That's also a school of art, and more and more it will be recognized. Rāmeśvara: Right now they have one big exhibit of photographs that the British took when they first came to India. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Where's that? Rāmeśvara: It's at the Asia House Gallery nearby. *Ghanaśyāma: We have professors who buy the complete standing order series of the Bhāgavatam*-it's because they like the artwork. And then they read the philosophy and like that too. But the art attracts them many times first. They very much like the purports of your writings, that it gives a living expression of the peoples of India other than just historical. Prabhupāda: ...books. Hṛdayānanda: They purchase books? *Ghanaśyāma: Yes. They like it because it's not dry, like many of the other books*-the art and the very glorious philosophical presentation. Your works are more enlivening and more easy for the students to understand, especially undergraduate students. Hari-śauri: They appreciate that your books have got life. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think we could have some of these up along in front of our building, advertising things within our temple. Rāmeśvara: These glass display cases. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These glass display cases, if we have these outside the front of our building, people will come in. Rāmeśvara: That's how they attract people. [break] They are always trying to think how to paint the bodies to look transcendental or spiritual. So this art historian has said this is a new style of art. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's telling me that when he sells the books... (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 18, 1976, New York *Hari-śauri: 7*-UP? We'll have to send someone out for it. Prabhupāda: So, so far I was there, it was successful. What was the next? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were selling prasādam. I think we must have made somewhere between five and ten thousand dollars so far from prasādam sales. That's in addition to the free feast. We served a free feast to five thousand people when I left. Prabhupāda: Oh, you did not stay there? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, still, it's so big. I estimated that through three to four hours there were thirty to forty thousand people that went in and out of that park. Prabhupāda: Still they are eating? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're still eating. Every piece of burfi we sold cost one dollar. Prabhupāda: What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just a piece of burfi... Prabhupāda: Burfi? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they were charging one dollar for one square. Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they were paying. Watermelon, for one slice, half a dollar. Prabhupāda: Fifty cents. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty cents. The whole watermelon only cost one dollar. We got about thirty slices out of it. And books... Prabhupāda: People, they are simple here. They are not, about money matters, so much attracted. They have got enough money. They don't care. They want it is good taste, that's all. And why they did not give prasādam to that boy who was crazy? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He got. I'm sure he must have gotten. Everybody was given free feast. Feast was very good. I tasted it, nicely prepared. Prabhupāda: How many preparations were there? *Bali*-mardana: Very hard to estimate. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many preparations in the feast? There was halavā, sabji, very good sabji by Ṛṣi Kumāra, rice, sweet, lemonade, popper*-six preps. And puri, seven preps. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Very good preps, sumptuous. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes. Besides that, we had booths with watermelon, lassi and burfi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lassi was selling very big. We could not supply it fast enough. *Bali*-mardana: We could not... All the time, those booths, there was a line. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because this was our first year, we were not expecting such a big turnout, so we did not have sufficient stands to meet everybody's needs. Prabhupāda: And the police officer has approved. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the policemen sat down at the end of the park later on. Prabhupāda: You gave them prasādam? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Why? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm not sure. I didn't deal with them. They were dealt with by Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa. We'll bring them some present tomorrow. But they made the statement that "If every parade was so beautiful and so nicely orderly, we would be very happy." Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They said it was very orderly. Prabhupāda: And that cannot be expected from any other group, only in this group. Such a huge crowd, and there was not a single instance of violence. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Except that one tie. One boy was punched out. *Hari-śauri: (referring to 7*-UP) I sent someone out. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The procession was very well attended. Prabhupāda: Television. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes, ABC, CBS, and Channel Five. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All of the GBC men said it was the biggest single festival ever held in ISKCON's history. They all admitted that there was no festival ever held anywhere, even in India, no single festival in India. There was not any one day at any pandal where there was that many people who took prasādam and who attended such a long procession for two hours. Prabhupāda: I think in the beginning... (microphone rattling) You were there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was there. Yeah, that was pretty big. In 1969, that was gigantic. Prabhupāda: That was also very big. And there was also a crazy man. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's right. We didn't give any invitation cards to our temple here, but we were making announcements. But I think people will come, anyway. They'll find out where our Hare Kṛṣṇa center is. *Bali*-mardana: They were distributing books, magazines. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Books and magazines were given, but we didn't give any free cards. Usually we give free cards, but there was so much... Prabhupāda: What is that? They'll come and take. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll come here, anyway. We didn't give any address card. Do you think people will come anyway? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even without getting a card. Prabhupāda: No, this is better, to give a card. Many Indians were standing when I came. *Bali*-mardana: Did you see the Indians? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think at least three thousand Indians attended, minimum. A huge crowd of Indians, but the big thing was not the Indians, it was the American people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a good location for the festival, very important place, Washington Square Park. It's the center. Prabhupāda: Best thing would have been to keep the Deities for a week there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That would not have been permitted. They only permitted us legally two hours for everything. That's why we were rushing everything. We only had two hours legally for the whole program. Prabhupāda: Yes, then there is no need. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I heard people say "We've never seen such a festival, never seen such a parade." I heard these comments. One man said... Someone said, "What's going on?" and he said, "Oh, they have so many things going on here." They were very appreciative. And actually we could not put our full energy into it this year because we were so busy preparing the building simultaneously. Prabhupāda: And above all, the atmosphere, the weather, was very nice. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, yes, Kṛṣṇa has blessed us. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) The breeze was there. We did not feel any... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No discomfort. Prabhupāda: ...fatigue. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And there was nearly four hundred to five hundred devotees there. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will stay in the temple? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they've been staying here. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no difficulty to accommodate them. Prabhupāda: Yes, Nārāyaṇa told me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know, Prabhupāda, I really feel like I should concentrate lot of my preaching here in New York. Prabhupāda: Do that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What do you think? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Preaching is required, here or there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You once said, "A good businessman, if he knows how to do it, he can make more money sitting in one place..." Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Money is not our aim. Our aim is how people will understand Kṛṣṇa. *Bali*-mardana: He is just using that as an analogy for preaching. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That if you have a good place, many people can be attracted, as many as moving around to many places. Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja was in favor of preaching in the city because you can get many men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But do you think I should travel a lot, or what is the best thing? Prabhupāda: Both things should be done. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Both. So if you... We were hoping that you could give us another chance by coming back next year. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, I'll come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you do say that to a lot of different temples, but we will try to make this doubly big. Prabhupāda: Always, so long I live, I must come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we get on Fifth Avenue, you'll come again? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we will double the amount of people, promise. *Bali*-mardana: And double the prasādam. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We will double everything if you are here, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. I can stay here also. I like especially New York, because I started the movement here. And because there are so many branches, if I go they become enlivened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, right, just like we are enlivened. Prabhupāda: Everyone wants. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone wants you to come. Prabhupāda: That is natural. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Question of love. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: New York was your second home after India. Prabhupāda: Yes, I say fatherland. India, motherland; this is fatherland. *Bali*-mardana: It is so nice that now in New York they are receiving you so nicely, this parade. Everyone is turning out to greet you. You are like the local boy who made good. So now they are receiving you very grandly. Prabhupāda: Yes, continue this program. People will be attracted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking that we could make a point to have many big festivals here each year, not just this one, but many. Prabhupāda: Yes, at least three, four you can do. On Janmāṣṭamī, one; Gaura Pūrṇimā; *for Śrī Rāma*-navamī; *and one, Ratha*-yātrā. *Bali*-mardana: We can do New York for the spring, summer and fall. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: Because the weather is nice. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That coincides. Rāma*-navamī is spring, Ratha-yātrā is summer, and Janmāṣṭamī is fall. Hari-śauri: Gaura Pūrṇimā would be a bit difficult, though. Everybody is in India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's not possible. *Bali*-mardana: We could do that inside. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But those three... *Prabhupāda: Janmāṣṭamī, take Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa procession. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On carts? Prabhupāda: No, on siṁhāsana, carried by hand. *Bali*-mardana: Palanquin. Prabhupāda: Palanquin; no, the siṁhāsana as it is. Just like this is siṁhāsana, two big poles down, and tie it with..., cut it with legs and carry, four men or eight men change. Change the soldiers. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not on carts, not on big chariots. *Prabhupāda: No. Chariot, only Ratha*-yātrā. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll make a big advertisement. We'll call it "Fall Festival." This festival, we called it "Summer Festival." People respond to that. If you say Ratha*-yātrā, they can't even pronounce the word. So we call it "Summer Festival," and they came. Hari-śauri: "Summer Festival" sounds very attractive. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone was saying, "Oh, that means for me, Summer Festival." Hari-śauri: "Ecstasy Outdoors." Prabhupāda: And Jayānanda should be congratulated. Yes. Give one letter, written. I... *Bali*-mardana: The carts looked magnificent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two people worked the hardest Prabhupāda, Jayānanda and all of his assistants, and Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa. He did all of the publicity and advertisement. Prabhupāda: They should be congratulated. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These two men, they worked the hardest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They worked for two months in a row, solid. The carts were very good, I think. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very nice, very strong. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because you gave him that warning. When he heard that, oh, he became very... "I must do it right." We told him, "Now you will have to be replaced. Prabhupāda has said that 'Jayānanda's wheels will never hold up.' So we have to find a replacement for you." So he took no chances. Prabhupāda: San Francisco it also happened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seems to me that he must be a great devotee of Lord Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: Same thing happened in London also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? The legs, wheels. Hari-śauri: That's why they gave difficulty, the authorities, because the wheels broke? Prabhupāda: No, that is wrong idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that happened, though. I remember hearing about it. This Jayānanda, it seems, must be a very faithful devotee of Lord Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: Now, where these things will be kept? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our garage. No problem. That's one of the advantages of our garage. It's one block away and it has ten thousand square foot of area, so we can store all the carts easily. Hari-śauri: Good storage is very important. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And one block away in Manhattan is very unusual. Prabhupāda: Be careful that termite may not attack. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. I'll make a note. *Bali*-mardana: There are not many termites in New York. We are fortunate. In Hawaii there are many termites. But here you don't usually have to protect wood against termites. Here the wintertime kills them. It gets so cold. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very cold. Hari-śauri: That kills them. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There were devotees from Miami, Gainesville, Atlanta, Washington, Baltimore, Boston, Detroit, Toronto, Montreal, Los Angeles, Vancouver, South America*-all over South America, I think. A gigantic turnout of devotees. Very international group. *Bali*-mardana: This could be like Lord Caitanya used to invite all His devotees to come and see Him at Ratha-yātrā... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: Similarly, if you come here, we can invite... Prabhupāda: I'll come. *Bali*-mardana: ...from all the temples. Prabhupāda: I'll come. *Bali*-mardana: Then you do not have to travel so much. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we will make all arrangements. This year is nothing. Next year we will make ten times more arrangements if you come, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: From anywhere, I'll come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We will make all arrangements for you. Prabhupāda: Yes. That you do. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This was only a trial. *Bali*-mardana: We have to perfect it now. We have learned that many..., certain things did not go as perfectly as they could have, so now we are going to repair and make it perfect. Prabhupāda: Now, by this, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is advertised. Apart from all over the world, at least in New York it is, that "There is some movement." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prominent movement. Fifth Avenue. We were in charge of Fifth Avenue for one day. Practically we were controlling the Fifth Avenue today. Hari-śauri: Lord Jagannātha was. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: If that side we get some small house, so that after going, eight days Jagannātha can remain there and festival going on, and then in the next week return... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How small a house? Prabhupāda: Just to keep Jagannātha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, there's your old storefront. Prabhupāda: What? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about your old storefront, 26 Second Avenue? Prabhupāda: That is too small. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Too small. I'll immediately get a house. Prabhupāda: And then you can utilize it for other purposes during the whole year. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we can keep a downtown center. *Bali*-mardana: West Village. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a first*-class place for a center, the West Village. We can make many devotees there. We'll keep a small preaching center, maybe a restaurant, prasādam distribution. *Bali*-mardana: We'll call it the Guṇḍicā center. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Guṇḍicā. We will call it Guṇḍicā. Prabhupāda: Yes, Guṇḍicā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think we should have a restaurant there, because a restaurant brings in a lot of people. No Deities. We won't install any Deities, just a preaching center, book distribution... Prabhupāda: Yes, book distribution, restaurant, pictures... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, lectures three times a week. Prabhupāda: Records, pictures, yes, like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew! I wish that you could stay here all the time, Prabhupāda, because you could give us so many ideas, and we would simply act on them. If somehow we could convince you to stay here... I wish there was a way. There is no way to keep you here. Prabhupāda: No, I have no objection, but the others... (laughter) *Bali*-mardana: Just like the Marwaris say, "Oh, I have no objection, but my brother, he may have objection." Prabhupāda: They... Nobody has objection. Simply I am thinking that if I stay in one place and do not see the others... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But this is a very central location. Prabhupāda: That I shall consider. *Bali*-mardana: They may come here. We will make... We have guest rooms. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can make an airline office by which they'll get a reduced rate, and they can travel here, travel agency, and they can come here very inexpensively to visit you, and we can give full accommodations. If somehow we can keep you here, we will do anything required. *Bali*-mardana: At least for a few months. That is all. Prabhupāda: Which month? *Bali*-mardana: During the summertime. Prabhupāda: July? *Bali*-mardana: July, August. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because now it is the rainy season in India. *Bali*-mardana: Because we do not want to inconvenience you as far as the weather goes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I know now, June, even July, August, September now in India is not so good. October is very good in India. *Bali*-mardana: September is very pleasant in New York. I think you remember. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These months are very nice. Somehow, if there was some way... I mean, we would preach so hard. At least sixteen hours a day we could work to serve you. I know I would not want to rest even. There must be some way that we can convince you to stay here. *Bali*-mardana: Because actually when you come here, you are preaching to millions. These reporters that have come, through them you have been preaching to millions. Prabhupāda: What about the reporters? They have published something? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it'll come. *Bali*-mardana: The transcripts have been sent to them, so within the next week they should be coming. *Hari-śauri: I think one or two were waiting until after Ratha*-yātrā to give a report on the festival as well. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There were a lot of reporters, and they said that next year... They told us next year they're going to have full television cameras. We're going to have to erect a news, er... What is that called? Press, not a table, but a platform where they're going to put their cameras, and their reporters will sit above the whole crowd. They want to cover it, full. They were very amazed to see such a gigantic festival in New York itself. They never imagined such a thing in New York. Prabhupāda: The Christians cannot organize. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You saw them. The only thing they were carrying was one sign like this. The sign said "Turn or Burn." It means turn to Jesus or burn. Turn or burn, burn in hell. That's their conception of God. Either God or burn in hell. We could give you a good rest here, also, Prabhupāda, because it's very easy to not... If the devotees could see you on Sunday, just like in the old days in Los Angeles... I mean everything could be nicely done, and you could still visit the European centers when you finally return to India. I mean they are not making such a big thing that you couldn't come later on. Oh, boy. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Good determination. *Bali*-mardana: They say that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa is very convincing. When he wants to persuade someone, the person must do it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, just it would give... There are so many good... Of course, everywhere there are good devotees, but here there are so many strong preachers that if you stay here on the basis that they had to increase their preaching, we would double and triple our preaching. There's no question. We would throw out all considerations of inconvenience to ourselves and simply preach day and night. *Bali*-mardana: Especially New York, the people are ready for it. Like today, they have taken part very nicely. Even the policemen. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, they're so favorable. Rāmeśvara was commenting. He said he never saw... The climate of the people of New York is unique in America. They are very favorable. *Prabhupāda: So where is that man? Where he has gone? 7*-UP can be had anywhere. Hari-śauri: Well, it's Sunday evening. It's a bit difficult. He has to drive around in a car till he finds somewhere. *Bali*-mardana: 7-UP? You want 7-UP? I can get it. Hari-śauri: I sent Śravaṇānanda out to get it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At the Bloopie's they can get it. Rādhāvallabha got it. *Bali*-mardana: Not a can, though, just in a cup. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But how do they get it into the cup? Buy the whole bottle. Prabhupāda: Bottle or... Bottle or can. *Bali*-mardana: This store has it... They have the machine. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about Ninth Avenue? There's all those shops. (whispering in background about 7*-UP) *Bali*-mardana: He already went to get it? Prabhupāda: If the government is going against our movement, then I'll have to stay. There is no alternative. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In India. Prabhupāda: Because in that case I'll be hampered in India. *Bali*-mardana: He'll be what? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hampered. *Bali*-mardana: Yes, now the government has a policy that anyone they do not like, they put him in jail. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In India. *Bali*-mardana: In India. Even that elderly gentleman, Nārāyaṇa, put him in jail. He's so old. Prabhupāda: The result is that the Congress Party and Indira Gandhi will never be elected anymore. That is sure. Therefore he's postponing election. Now they have lost all their credit. They will never be elected. Congress Party and Indira Gandhi finished. *Bali*-mardana: They have lost all respectability. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that your preaching here in New York... The thing is the preaching... Prabhupāda: More important. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's more important. Prabhupāda: I know that. *Bali*-mardana: In India they pay more attention to the building than to the person. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Bali*-mardana: Our building can go on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know, Prabhupāda, we have never... I mean, you started this movement here in New York, but this is the first time that we have a proper facility. Prabhupāda: Yes, in the last ten years there was no facility. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda. That's why if you concentrated here, just by your presence, even if you only spoke to a few important gentlemen... We have so many senior men here. We could do wonderful things. Within two or three months we could expand our movement so broadly here in New York, I think the whole country would take note. I really feel that there is a great potential. Prabhupāda: That is right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why I'm not very eager to... Prabhupāda: Yes, this is fact. Let me see what Kṛṣṇa desires. The roof is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: For open air. Hari-śauri: It's very good for massage. Prabhupāda: And the view of the river is very healthy. If you can see the river from your house, it is to be understood that quarter is very nice. If you can see sky from your room, then it is understood the room is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, all these things are here. Prabhupāda: We can see from the room the river. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise from the roof. So it is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think also that right now there's a lot of devotees here, so it's a little taxing, but once the festival's over, they will all be returning to their respective centers. It will be much calmer. [break] In the night? Prabhupāda: I do not take anything at night. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Morning, you are drinking milk? Is it...? Prabhupāda: Very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those cows are unique, that a cow can give her own weight in milk in eleven days. Prabhupāda: They are selling milk also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our farm? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we make fifteen hundred to two thousand dollars a month. Prabhupāda: So if there is more milk, you can sell more, get money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we're getting nearly two thousand dollars a month. *Hari-śauri: (7*-Up has been brought) Is there ice? He was supposed to get some ice from the kitchen downstairs. *Bali*-mardana: It's cold. Prabhupāda: Who will open? You open it. *Bali*-mardana: I have just opened it. Is it cold enough? Prabhupāda: We call it in India, lemonade. Hari-śauri: That was the original name, lemonade. Then all these new things, they changed all the names. *Bali*-mardana: It's good for bringing up gas. Prabhupāda: From my childhood I liked this lemonade. I think it was cost, in our childhood, three paisa. *Bali*-mardana: Now I think in India it costs one rupee. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One rupee, twenty paisa. Of course, you get forty paisa back for the bottle, but it's between sixty*-five and eighty paisa after you get your money back. When we were travelling in Bhopal, we traveled there in the months of May and June. It was very hot. We were drinking seven bottle a day, every hour. Every hour. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Lemonade. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gargamuni and I, we had to stop. We'd call it Limka. In India it is called Limka. *Bali*-mardana: When Westerners go to India, it is so hot the water just comes out, you know, sweat, all the time. Become dehydrated. Hari-śauri: Apart from that, you can't drink the water in India, so you have to drink Limka or something. It's safer to drink the lemonade than it is to drink the water. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) *Morning Walk-*-July 19, 1976, New York Prabhupāda: Not only our men, outsiders also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many outsiders were doing that. Hari-śauri: They like to pull the ropes. It's a big experience for them. Prabhupāda: (belches loudly) What is this gas, oxygen? No. They put some gas. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Carbon dioxide. CO2. You should have seen it. It was literally completely filled. We put on a play. First we did a big kīrtana, after you left, very big, and many, at least a thousand to two thousand people were dancing. Then there was a play, and the people crowded to see that play of Kali, Sudāmā. Oh, they were amazed to see. Sudāmā was moving around, dancing, watching. They like that very much. Prabhupāda: Sudāmā plays nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's expert. Especially at that part, Kali and Sin. (laughter) And then after that I looked out at the crowd and literally I could not see any open space in the park. Really, I was shocked. Even where there was a fountain, the whole fountain was filled with people; even where there was water, they were standing in the water, there were so many people. It was hot, so they were standing. And the beautiful thing is because there was a fountain, the air was blowing the water all the way to the stage. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were preaching all this time. *Bali*-mardana: Preaching and kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja chanted. Devotees: Oh, yes, very nice. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, this festival was wonderful. So many people took prasādam, and afterwards they had a play and then they had, they did some bhajanas, and the people were enchanted by the whole thing. And the neighbors there, they said that "In the five years I've lived by the park, the park has never been so nice." It was just wonderful. They say about seven thousand people took prasādam. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See, seven thousand. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There was a line all the way around the park. They couldn't serve it out fast enough. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seven thousand took prasādam! That was the free prasādam. And another seven thousand we sold prasādam. *Hari-śauri: They had big queues for buying watermelon. Bali*-mardana had bought lots of watermelon, and they were selling slices for fifty cents each. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Lassi also, and lemonade, very tasty. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were also selling lassi and lemonade. It was very big. *Bali*-mardana: Burfi and lugloos, sweets, everything. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bali*-mardana's wife, Taittirīya devī, she was in charge of the sweet table. So she had about four or five sweets, they were all the same, but she made them somehow look different. So everyone was saying, "Oh, which one is which?" And she would say "Each one is different. You have to take one of every one." But they were all the same. So people had to buy two and three kinds. (laughter) Prabhupāda: She is good saleswoman. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She is very good. And Tripurāri, I watched him in action. One person came up and said "I want a Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam 2.2." So he looked and said "We have 2.1.," and he said "I want 2." So he said "This is very close. 2.1 and 2.2 are very close to each other, and it's all absolute." In this way he made the man take one. Prabhupāda: No, actually that is a fact. There is no difference, 2.2 and 1. *Bali*-mardana: And then we had a life membership table with Gajahanta and Śravaṇānanda. The Indians were all coming, and there were chairs for them to sit down, and they were preaching to them life membership. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they had..., you know that little portable movie screen, you may have seen, it comes in an attache case. Hari-śauri: Like Gargamuni's, he showed you in Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: Ah. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we had three of these set up, and many people were sitting in chairs watching the different movies. *Bali*-mardana: It was amazing that one little generator was supplying all the power. This one little gasoline generator was supplying the power for all the sound and the various electricity things. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there was no electrical hook*-up; we did that with a gas generator. Prabhupāda: Oh. And there was no sound, cutcutcutcutcut. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, because we put it very far away. In India that would be a nuisance, the sound of the... Prabhupāda: So where is Ambarīṣa? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was not in the parade. *Bali*-mardana: He is going back to..., I spoke to him for a little while. He's going back to Boston right after the parade, I think, with Aja? I spoke to him; he seemed to be a nice boy. I asked him, because we were meeting with reporters. So they like to ask who is giving you big donations. I wasn't sure whether he wanted his name to be used or not, but he said, "Oh, yes, you can use it without any question. I do not mind at all." (pause) Prabhupāda: All right, go take rest, you have worked so hard. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we didn't. (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 19, 1976, New York Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We haven't gotten all of the newspapers yet, but we did get some of them. This is the very popular Daily News. What is the circulation of the Daily News? Few millions, isn't it? *Bali*-mardana: Millions. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in the millions. It's the largest in New York. So they gave us the center section. *Bali*-mardana: That's the big, the most popular section. This side. Prabhupāda: "Fifth Avenue, Where East Meets West." Very good idea. Very good idea. Very nice. *Bali*-mardana: The other pictures, I think some are from the Olympics. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very prominent. The center section is, next to the front page, the center section is very..., the most popular page in the paper, because it has interesting pictures. Prabhupāda: You can send one, this cutting, to Mr. Bhajaj, "Fifth Avenue, Where East Meets West." Very good. Hari-śauri: Send one to Māyāpura as well? Prabhupāda: Huh? You can send to many place, but this title is very nice. This is the point, this is the point. East, as I say always, the lame man meets the blind man. Together they do wonderful. And different they cannot do anything. He is blind, he is lame. But they join together, Indian culture and American money, they will save the whole world. Here is the... Money required. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to hear what they wrote? Should I read to you what they said? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nicely written. "With everybody pulling together and everybody puffing together, a huge float is tugged down Fifth Avenue yesterday during the first Ratha*-yātrā Parade of International Society for Krishna Consciousness. The parade moved south from Central Park to Washington Square Park, where a free feast, music, art, dance and theater festival was held. According to a spokesperson, Ratha-yātrā is a time when people come to dance, sing and feast amidst a sublime atmosphere of bright flags, festoons, banners, garlands, flowers and incense, simply to feel the poetry and blissful nature of life.' " Prabhupāda: Very good, this is blissful nature. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you can see the devotees pulling the float. *Bali*-mardana: Read the caption in the middle. Prabhupāda: And they have created a civilization, wine, woman, gambling and meat. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's what it said. "The multicolored floats contrast with Fifth Avenue's concrete canyon as parade passes Thirty*-fourth Street yesterday." Here it says, "An idyllic mood in saffron robes." Prabhupāda: Everything is approved. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, highly approved. Then there's another, New York Times. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not very(?) important. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Beautiful photograph. *Bali*-mardana: "East Meets West in Hare Kṛṣṇa..." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Feat." *Bali*-mardana: "...Feat." Hari-śauri: Fete. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fete. Prabhupāda: You must purchase some copies. We shall send to India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at that picture, it's very clear. Should I read you this article? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one is not, it's not bad, but it's not so accurate. "In size it was dwarfed by 'Operation Sale.' In popular concern it was outweighed by the Democratic National Convention. But for hundreds of Hare Kṛṣṇa followers, including many Indian immigrants to New York, yesterday's Ratha*-yātrā festival was by far the most important event in an eventful month. Pulling three brightly-colored chariots down Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, the religious group's adherents were celebrating one of the oldest holy days of the Indian calendar, the feast of Jagannātha, the Lord of the Universe, according to Kṛṣṇa doctrine. Most of the participants in the parade were young Westerners, followers from as far away as Caracas and Montreal. But the crowd included hundreds of Indians who brought the basic Kṛṣṇa faith with them from Bombay and Calcutta." Prabhupāda: That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that nice. "Like many other immigrant groups who preserved their forms of worship once they came to America, the Indians who watched or participated in the parade were pleased to see that they could keep the faith even in New York City." (laughter) Prabhupāda: These rascals, let them come, they become baḍa sāheb. *Bali*-mardana: Become what? Prabhupāda: Baḍa sāheb. Hari-śauri: Baḍa sāheb, big Westerner. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "While Hare Kṛṣṇa propounds doctrines of world renunciation common to other varieties of the Hindu faith, the sect, officially known as the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, was founded in 1966 by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, whose fame as a guru came only after he arrived in the United States in the same year. For most of the Indians watching the parade, however, Hare Kṛṣṇa was close enough to their brand of Hinduism to make them feel at home." Gurudāsa: That's good. It means that we're not a light cult. It means we have a great tradition. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's actually good. Gurudāsa: They're recognizing that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: " 'It's surprising that you find this right in New York City. It's our way of life,' said Nagan Patel, a civil engineer from Jersey City, who immigrated from Bombay. 'We love New York City and America. It's the most beautiful place in the world. No other country will give such freedom for our own ceremony.' " Prabhupāda: That's a fact, that I say always. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "But the Kṛṣṇa people were not entirely free of harassment. Along the parade route three men, including one who said he was an Evangelical Christian minister, jeered at the parade and called on parade watchers to become Christians. 'Idol worship. This is absolutely ridiculous. Read the Bible,' cried one man who would identify himself only as a normal Christian. There was a brief scuffle when an Indian immigrant tried to tear a large placard out of the hands of another heckler. The placard read 'Turn or Burn.' The police broke things up but made no arrests. 'They are insulting us,' said the Kṛṣṇa follower who declined to identify himself. 'I'm a devotee of Kṛṣṇa and Christ. These people who are doing this in the name of Christ are criminals.' " Very strong statement. "Except for the hecklers, however, the parade was generally very well received by passersby, who enjoyed the three multi*-hued floats, the sun, and the chanting and dancing of the young Kṛṣṇa marchers. 'I think it's great,' said Tyrone Adams of Philadelphia, who was paying a visit to his home town of Inglewood, New Jersey. 'I'm not religious, but they're all happy and dancing, and that is what life is all about.' " Even a nonreligious person said that. "In Washington Square a crowd of about three thousand, many of whom were there as part of the normal Sunday afternoon activities, heard Swami Prabhupāda deliver a lecture. Later the crowd was served a free vegetarian feast. Along the side, Kṛṣṇa followers sold Indian sweets, Kṛṣṇa scriptures, and what one speaker described as 'transcendental paraphernalia.' " Prabhupāda: Very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's a good article. For the Times especially it's good, because they are very conservative. Prabhupāda: The Times first published about my activities from Tompkinson Square. They first published. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now over the television last night there was gigantic coverage. CBS, which is the most important station, gave two and a half minutes' coverage. *Bali*-mardana: Wow. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have very big program, and the reporters-Dhṛṣṭadyumna was watching*-he said that the reporters through the whole news, they were very grim, and then they, because they read what they say, and suddenly their faces lit up, and they said "And Hare Kṛṣṇa had a parade today!" And they described the whole parade. And they loved it, they said it was very well received. CBS reported, ABC reported, NBC reported, Channel Five gave big coverage, all the television networks gave a big coverage. It was very well publicized, with a lot of coverage and photos. They were showing movies of the parade, of you lecturing, of the crowds that were gathered taking prasādam. Prabhupāda: Somebody should send this clipping, not our men, to... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To your Godbrothers. Prabhupāda: To Indira Gandhi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some Indian people. Prabhupāda: She is little anxious to cooperate with Americans, because the most criticism for his (her) present act... Everyone will criticize, the Americans have criticized like anything, and they are thinking that the American people are... Actually, her nation is under danger. (end) *Car Ride-*-July 20, 1976, New York Prabhupāda: When another came? Rāmeśvara: Not in the same way. This city has so many, they have so many different groups, religious groups and minority groups from other parts of the world, they call it a melting pot. So they accept us because they've accepted so many others, the Puerto Ricans, the blacks, so similarly they are accepting us. Prabhupāda: Who? Rāmeśvara: This city, the people of this city. Prabhupāda: America. Rāmeśvara: New York. Prabhupāda: New York. Rāmeśvara: In other places they consider us to be very foreign, alien. But here there are so many foreigners, so it fits right in. Prabhupāda: This is the Tenth Street? No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Amsterdam Avenue. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ninth Avenue turns into Amsterdam Avenue. *Rāmeśvara: Next year at the Ratha*-yātrā they are planning to have a press box, so that the newspapermen and television cameras can come and film the activities on stage also. They can film your lecture, they can film the play. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're also thinking to have a press box along the parade route, so that they can stay in an elevated position and take photos. We collected a total of about seven thousand dollars, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: And what you spent? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spent ten thousand. But we also collected another fifteen thousand in advertisements. So total collection was about twenty, over twenty thousand, and expenditure was under ten. Prabhupāda: Good business. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And that was the first year. Rāmeśvara: (chants japa) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next year we will collect sixty to seventy thousand dollars... Devotee: Whew! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Easily, I'm sure, with advertisements. Prabhupāda: Where the profit is going? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is the profit? Into distributing more books. Prabhupāda: That's nice, very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is our only business. [break] ...completely cleansed all of the grounds throughout the night, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last night all night long we were cleaning up the grounds. Rāmeśvara: At the park. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At the park. One woman who lives next to the park said "In all my years of living here I've never seen such a wonderful festival held." And one..., the official of the park, who's in charge of the park, was on CBS television, and he said that "You see? Spiritual life is still present in Washington Square Park." He made that comment. He said "We are very proud to be able to say that in our... This park was founded hundreds of years ago, when America was religious." And he said "Spiritual life is still present in Washington Square Park." Prabhupāda: So why not ask the mayor to construct a temple there? (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think they'd... Prabhupāda: People will come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe, but, ah, I don't think they will agree to that. They're not that spiritual. Rāmeśvara: No, in America you have to raise your own money for temples. You cannot get the city to build it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you can't get their land either, not for a building like that. You can put a hospital maybe. Thing is, park space is so short in that area of the city that they..., I don't think they'd give it up for a building. Prabhupāda told us yesterday that we should rent a small building downtown in that area and call it Guṇḍicā, so that Lord Jagannātha will stay down there. Prabhupāda: For one week. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For one week. And we'll keep a restaurant there. Prabhupāda: And then they'll again come in procession. Rāmeśvara: Wow! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, two festivals. *Gurudāsa: I was told there was another procession last night bringing the car back, and all the night persons*-there's a different whole segment of the city, people who come at night... Devotee: Bums. Gurudāsa: ...who stay up all night. And they were there, hundreds of people following the car back in the nighttime. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It took about seven hours to bring the carts back. All night they worked. Jayānanda was slaving out there, and Ādi*-keśava Swami. Ādi-keśava finally got back at five in the morning, collapsed on the carts, he was exhausted. Prabhupāda: They should be given some recommendations(?) in writing. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Give Ādi*-keśava a recommendation. This will be gigantic, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'll tell you one thing, that the first way we go, next year when we go one way, it will get huge publicity, and that will be the publicity for the going return trip. Because it will be so publicized, even more people will come on the return ride. Rāmeśvara: On the return you simply go to the temple and drop the Deities off? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We'll go to Fifty*-ninth Street and have another feast at the park. Rāmeśvara: Yes, there has to be another feast. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll have the feast, we may have buses, we'll have all our buses, and we'll bus the people to the temple. We could rent buses, Rāmeśvara. *Prabhupāda: Return Ratha*-yātrā. Ulṭā-ratha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is it called? *Prabhupāda: Ulṭā*-ratha. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ulṭā*-ratha. Rāmeśvara: Should the actors perform the Herā Pañcamī ceremony? Prabhupāda: That is in the middle. Rāmeśvara: In the middle. Prabhupāda: Do that(?). Rāmeśvara: So they can do that? [break] ...Pañcamī, where they carry the goddess of fortune on an opulent palanquin. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, New York doesn't have a name. We have to give it some name. We call Los Angeles as New Dvārakā. Here it's just New York. [break] Rāmeśvara: (whispering) Rādhāvallabha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh? Rāmeśvara: Rādhāvallabha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...monkey. Prabhupāda: What is that? Rāmeśvara: Rādhāvallabha is your faithful servant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Guarding you. [break] (outside car) Ghanaśyāma: We were talking about the pictures, the paintings in the books. We were mentioning how professors liked the paintings and how sometimes they actually buy the books because of the nice paintings. Sometimes when we go back to see a professor or librarian a year later, we'll notice that they'll have a catalogue up on the bulletin board. Sometimes they'll take the cover of the jacket of the book and they'll put it on display. And now we're getting recognized when we go to some of the colleges. They say, "Oh, you're the man with the nice colorful books. We've seen your catalogue, we got one in the mail, we've seen your books, and they're very attractive books." And our men are getting known now that because we've been to most of the schools in America once, and they say "You're the men who don't leave until your books are in the library." Even if the school is closed, our men, now, they'll go to the professor's home and they'll get him out of bed to come to see the librarian or to write a notice or to call the librarian. So even if the school is closed, the books are still being placed, and when the students come the books are in the library. [break] (in car) Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Is that what you want? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa Mahārāja can speak very nice. Satsvarūpa: The speaking starts in the fall, especially. That's when we could work together. Prabhupāda: No, in our temple.(?) Satsvarūpa: In the temples also. Gurudāsa: Should I not go to the London zone at this time? I've been invited. They say they need a sannyāsī in that zone, for years, so I've been invited. Do you think I should go now with Satsvarūpa Mahārāja, or go to London? Prabhupāda: That you decide among the all of you. Gurudāsa: All right. Very good. [break] *Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. As soon as one becomes devotee, all the good qualification immediately manifest. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (whispering) ...all these people hanging out and making noise. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Morning Walk-*-July 20, 1976, New York *Prabhupāda: Mind's business is restlessness. Where is surprising? Therefore we have to fix up our mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise there is no way. It is very restless. That is the nature. The yogis, they try to control the mind by mechanical process*-dhyāna, dhāraṇā, āsana, prāṇāyāma. [break] Cigarette is, I think, advertised, "Nobody is lower than me." That means no other cigarette is lower in poisonous effect. In a different way it is advertised. "Nobody is lower than me." Humble. *Ādi*-keśava: Who is that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Cigarette is full of poison. It is being advertised, "Nobody is lower than me." *Ādi*-keśava: Oh, yes, the tar content. Prabhupāda: That means "I am first, I am first class." Less poison. "Nobody contains lower poison than me." [break] ...city, when it was constructed? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A lot of the buildings are from the early 1800s, 1850. Like the Museum of Natural History that we visited, that was 1869. It was settled even earlier than that. Hṛdayānanda: It was always a very important city. For almost two or three hundred years it's been a very important city for trade, business, commerce. Prabhupāda: When you first settled? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the 1600s. *Ādi*-keśava: It was settled by the Dutch in the 1600s. That's three hundred years ago. Hṛdayānanda: Called New Amsterdam. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some Indians were living here on this island, and the Dutch people, they bribed them or traded it for about thirty dollars' worth of jewels and trinkets. Hṛdayānanda: The Dutch were defeated by the British, and the British took New York. *Prabhupāda: Yo bala maluk taya (?): "Might is right."[break] ...right is going on now also, but under some plea, United Nations. Where is unity? [break] Sometimes I stayed in this house. Eighty*-seventh Street? No. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is not Eighty*-seventh, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Where? *Tripurāri: Seventy*-second and Amsterdam. [break] Prabhupāda: ...station like this. Passerby: Bless your heart. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow, he said, "Bless your heart." Passerby: What's the scoop? Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Passerby: Hare Kṛṣṇa? How about Christ Jesus? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How about Hare Kṛṣṇa as father? Passerby: Father? His father? 'Fraid not, fella. You'll meet your father. Prabhupāda: Drunkard? No. Hṛdayānanda: Crazy. Prabhupāda: This is Amsterdam? Cross street? No. *Devotee: Seventy*-fifth Street. Hṛdayānanda: Yes, this is Amsterdam. Prabhupāda: Everywhere I see that poster. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Toṣaṇa Kṛṣṇa, he was doing that for about three weeks in a row. *Ādi*-keśava: All night long. Prabhupāda: He would go out all night long for about three weeks, putting those posters up everywhere. Hṛdayānanda: This is tall. Tamāla, this is an older section? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, not that old. These buildings were built in the '30s, '40s. Prabhupāda: We are going to the Riverside? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Riverside Park. Would have been faster, wouldn't it, to go down on Westside Drive? [break] Prabhupāda: I was coming here daily for cooking my food. Hṛdayānanda: Purchasing food? Prabhupāda: Cooking. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the park, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: At one Dr. Mishra's house. In my apartment there was no kitchen. [break] There was some news. Their machine has gone to Mars planet. Hari-śauri: Machine is? Prabhupāda: They sent some machine? Hari-śauri: To Mars? Ātreya Ṛṣi: To picture, to take pictures around the Mars, to take pictures, and they have found on Mars signs of life and water. They have taken many close pictures. Hari-śauri: Of Arizona. Prabhupāda: No, they know that this time if they say there is no life, then there is no interest. This time another falsehood. Hari-śauri: Maybe some life this time. Prabhupāda: Some new falsehood. Ātreya Ṛṣi: All the things that they have found has put doubt of their previous discoveries. They have put... They say this themselves, that it has revolutionized all their knowledge by some pictures they have now. [break] Prabhupāda: ...the solid stone, and still, life is coming, and they say there is no life. [break] In the moon planet there is sand, but wherefrom the sand came? Without water, where is the experience of sand? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Sand, yes. Prabhupāda: Sand. We get sand from the water. So unless there was water, how there is sand? Who will answer this? Jagadīśa: Desert, like the desert. *Prabhupāda: Yes, there was water. There was water. You cannot say that sand has come automatically. It comes from... What is that sand? It's soda*-silicate. The water is soda, full of soda, and from that, sand comes. You are chemist. You know soda silicate? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Excuse me? *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Brahma*-tīrtha prabhu, Bob Cohen, is a geologist. He just got initiated yesterday. Prabhupāda: Hm. Oh, yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He's the Peace Corps devotee from India? He is a scientist in the field of geology, studies the earth and how these formations come, and he's working with the scientists to prove their misunderstandings, their false claims. Prabhupāda: No, without water there cannot be sand. Hari-śauri: . So early in the moon's history, when it was first formed, when there was gaseous clouds, then there was the water in the atmosphere... Prabhupāda: There was water? Hari-śauri: But then, due to the atmosphere being dry, not being any atmosphere, now it's just rocks and dust. Prabhupāda: Why the atmosphere changed? There was water? Why the atmosphere changed? [break] ...is water, there must be vegetation. So where those vegetation gone? All false propaganda. Even in the sea you'll find seaweed. Is it not? So as soon as there is water, there must be vegetation. And without water, sand does not come. If there is sand, there is water, there is vegetation. Hari-śauri: So if there was originally an atmosphere, why is it not there now? Prabhupāda: These are all rascal, "atmosphere." What atmosphere? Whole world is made of these material elements. Why the atmosphere should be different? Maybe more or less; that is another thing. Just like in the Western country it is very cool and the Eastern it is country hot. But that does not mean everything is changed. Ātreya Ṛṣi: On this planet we have certain elements, like iron, water, or sand. Could there be other elements on other planets, new elements? Prabhupāda: No. No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Same elements. Prabhupāda: More or less. Just like in the heavenly planets it is said that the roads are built with pearls. So there is more pearl. Here is also. The pearl quantity is there. Therefore they pave on the road. Hari-śauri: You told us, in Hawaii, they had emeralds as big as huge boulders. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hari-śauri: Yes, big rocks, like this, when we were walking in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: And the beaches are made of gems. Prabhupāda: Yes, so what is the difficulty? This is also stone; *that is also stone. That is valuable stone, that's all*-valuable in your eye. *Gurudāsa: So kalpa*-vṛkṣa is the topmost, and this is perverted. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: So the moon planet is said to be high planet, but sand is not as nice as vegetation. How is that? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurudāsa: The moon planet is said to be higher planet, but sand is not... Prabhupāda: No, no, they say that moon planet, there is sand. They have brought sand. I say, "Wherefrom the sand came unless there is water?" Gurudāsa: Yes. Devotee (1): Came from Arizona. (laughter) Hari-śauri: Actually when they brought that dust, they said they brought that dust back, they made the point that it's just like the dust here. That's the same things again. You pointed out, "Why they are mentioning Arizona when they're talking about Mars?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: That means they've never been past Arizona. Prabhupāda: All business is going on in Arizona. Gurudāsa: You once said there is a gross and subtle part of the moon planet. Is that so? No. Prabhupāda: No. Gurudāsa: You said one who had qualification could get to the actual moon planet. Prabhupāda: Moon is one. There are not so many moons. Moon is one. You can go to the moon. By ritualistic ceremony you can get there ten thousands of years life and enjoy. That is the heavenly planet. Gurudāsa: So they have not at all gone there. Prabhupāda: All false propaganda. Hari-śauri: I think we should go back now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Prabhupāda: Planet is full of life. Jana-(indistinct). All kinds of animals are there. Jagadīśa: Even in the Arizona desert there are different kinds of life. Prabhupāda: Yes. There must be. [break] ...use of going to the Mars planet. What is their idea? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They constantly want to discover more and more so that they can claim that they are lords. Prabhupāda: But what is that discovery? Rādhāvallabha: Scientific knowledge. Prabhupāda: You simply go and see? That's all? Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is no really purpose, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no valid purpose. Rādhāvallabha: They consider it advancement of knowledge. Prabhupāda: This is not advancement of... Gurudāsa: They want to colonize because there is overpopulation on this planet. Prabhupāda: Eh? Another rascal. (laughter) Gurudāsa: They want to put the American flag on the moon and say, "It is ours." Prabhupāda: And then lick up. "Here is American flag." (laughter) And then doglike urine(?) (within?) (laughter) So lick up, then doglike urine(?) (women?). It is useless. (laughter) Dog's business. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they feel they should explore the unknown. *Prabhupāda: That will remain everlastingly unknown. They'll never be able to push. Panthās tu koṭi-śata*-vatsara-saṁpragamyaḥ. What is this speed? Even with the speed of mind and air they go many, many millions of years, it will still be... This verse of Brahma-saṁhitā, panthās tu koṭi-śata-vatsara-saṁpragamyo vāyor athāpi manaso muni-puṅgavānām, so 'py asti avicintya-tattve [Bs. 5.34]. It is inconceivable. It will never be done. They have some vague idea, "There is no life. There is this. There is that." That's... Real knowledge they'll never get. Real knowledge you'll get from Bhāgavata. Rādhāvallabha: They don't even know what is inside the ocean, what to speak of other planets. Prabhupāda: And if they take photograph of the ocean, what they will understand what is within the ocean? Suppose they have taken photograph of the ocean. Does it mean the full knowledge of ocean? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Only speculation, only speculation. Prabhupāda: Simply speculation. They are bluffing, "We have taken photograph." Suppose you have taken photograph. Does it mean that you have known everything? Nonsense. Hari-śauri: They don't even know all the species of life here, so how will they know which one's there? Gurudāsa: Just like when a photograph of a person is there, it doesn't mean they know what is inside. Prabhupāda: But they bluff, "We have taken photograph." And what you have known about it? Simply bluff. Hari-śauri: The whole thing is so childish, it's... Rādhāvallabha: They tried to find the bottom of the deepest part of the ocean, and their submarine snapped in half and they all died. There's too much pressure. [break] Prabhupāda: How life is coming by force? And they say there is no soul. Hari-śauri: You made the point the other day during massage that even though our building is twelve stories high and it's made of steel and concrete, still, there's small plants growing straight out of the cement. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] They do not go to the sun planet. What is the reason? Tripurāri: They say that no life there. Prabhupāda: Again life, no life. Tripurāri: They think it's too hot for life to exist there. Prabhupāda: So how Kṛṣṇa was there? Rādhāvallabha: They don't believe that. Prabhupāda: So how can I believe you? If you don't believe Kṛṣṇa, shall I have to believe you? Rādhāvallabha: They have calculated that as soon as you come within a certain amount, a billion miles of the sun... Prabhupāda: That is you. That is you, not Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference between you and Kṛṣṇa. Rādhāvallabha: [break] Across the river, there was reports from many people that one ship landed from another planet. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rādhāvallabha: Across the river there were reports from many people that a ship from another planet landed and took soil samples and then left. And everyone reported that saw, they were very much afraid. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A thief suspects everyone as being a thief. So everybody's afraid because they know that they would attack everybody else. Therefore they think everyone else is in the same mood. They never think of people from other planets as being friendly. They always consider that they will immediately try to kill everyone and conquer, because that's what they would do. That's their business. Rādhāvallabha: About thirty or forty years ago a man named Orson Welles did a..., he had a radio show, and just as a joke he started giving a news report that the Martians had landed, and people were panicking. They were trying to leave the city in cars in huge numbers. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Bali*-mardana: Thousands of people started to leave the city in fear. I think it was on April Fools? It was just a joke. Hari-śauri: We can go down to the right, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Prabhupāda: ...difference between a śūdra and brāhmaṇa. A śūdra can be misled at any moment. That is stated in... Strī śūdra. Woman and śūdra on the same class. You can mislead them by high talkings: "Oh, I am coming from Indian prince." They come here, marry some European, and go to India and then engage him (her) for collecting water in bucket. One Muhammadan crewman, a vagabond, he bluffed one girl that "I am coming from Muhammadan prince family." Then she married, and she went to Allahabad, and she was given borakhā and she was living in a hut, and then she was bringing water from the street. She wrote a letter to the Viceroy that "This is my position." Then police came and rescued her and sent her. [break] *Gurudāsa: ...Pañca*-tantra about a jackal who poses as a king. He has blue dye on, so they think he's special, but when he heard other jackals, all he could do was howl, and he was exposed. [break] Prabhupāda: ...Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? *Bali*-mardana: He's here, Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Now there should be one rule that unless they are husband*-wife, man and woman should not worship together. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: On the altar. Prabhupāda: Yes. Strictly prohibited. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On the same altar. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Different altars is all right, but not the same altar. Prabhupāda: No, different quarters... They should not go to the... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They should not be brought before the Deities. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Alone. Hari-śauri: In the kitchen or... Prabhupāda: Man and woman together should not worship unless they are husband and wife. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Never be alone. So just because they are married to someone else, that is not... They must be married to each other. *Prabhupāda: No, no, they must be together, the man and the woman. The husband*-wife can go, not others. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In most temples that is not the system right now. *Prabhupāda: No, that system should be introduced. The husband*-wife together can go to worship the Deity. If they are not related as husband, they should not go. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What about a situation like this, where the husband and wife are worshiping but also some other brahmacārīs are also worshiping? Prabhupāda: Still, that is some protection. The husband is there. The woman means her husband must be there. Which one? Our car? Hari-śauri: He's bringing it. He's bringing it up to this road here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...dogs and cats. Prabhupāda: Not cows. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no, cows are meant for eating, for food. It's all about dogs. Rāmeśvara: So no woman who is married should work with the Deities unless her husband is right there? What if the husband is a book distributor? [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That walking place? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda will be leaving for the airport tonight. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: About six*-fifteen at the latest. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Six, six*-fifteen. Rāmeśvara: Oh, yes, six o'clock. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ādi*-keśava, you have to make arrangements, garlands, flowers, devotees. [break] ...museum. Prabhupāda: Which museum? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Museum of Natural History. Three hours we spent there, and we got a big headache. Prabhupāda: Three hours? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we got a headache. Prabhupāda: Seeing only dead bodies? Rāmeśvara: Dead bodies. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stuffed dead bodies. Rāmeśvara: They have this one display trying to prove that..., the Darwin theory of evolution. They have these bones, and they say this proves how man was formerly like an ape or a monkey. Now he has become more civilized. Prabhupāda: So where is Darwin's bones? Rāmeśvara: Then they have one display showing... Prabhupāda: No, no, Darwin got all this knowledge. His bones should be studied first, how he got so much knowledge. And from which monkey he came. By studying the bones, discover it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Complete concoction. Prabhupāda: Ask them to find out from which monkey the Darwin's bone has come. They may decide. Study the bones of Darwin. And spoiling public money in this way. [break] Rāmeśvara: ...each display they have some background artwork very expertly done. Say they have a display of a tiger. They have a painting of the forest in the background, and it's very well done. They spend a lot of money, with lighting systems. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But none of the exhibits are moving. [break] Rāmeśvara: ...for one display of the different stages of the embryo growing. So to have this display they used actual dead aborted babies. They have them mounted in the display case, the dead babies that they have killed. Prabhupāda: Killed? Rāmeśvara: Aborted babies. They have taken their tiny little bodies and put them in a display, so you can see the baby at two months, at four months, at six months, at eight months. Like that. Prabhupāda: How it is growing. Rāmeśvara: Yes, the different... Prabhupāda: No, no, how it is growing? When it was put into the bottle, why it did not grow? It remained as it is. Rāmeśvara: They say because they severed its connection with the mother. Prabhupāda: That means the baby has grown from the mother. So mother is life. That is the proof. Otherwise how the baby has grown? You cannot say that life can be grown out of matter. Rāmeśvara: Life from life. Prabhupāda: As soon as they say that "It has grown from the mother," the mother is life. Rāmeśvara: Life from life. Prabhupāda: That's it. Rāmeśvara: No one thinks like that. Prabhupāda: They are all rascals, therefore I say. They have no common sense, all rascals, dull. By eating meat they are... They may be like tigers or dogs, but they are not human beings. They may have strength of a tiger or barking capacity like a dog, but they are not human being. Useless. They cannot be used for anything human benefit, useless. We should take them like that, that "You may be a tiger, you may be a lion, you may be a dog, but you are not a human being. We do not accept you." A tiger is very powerful than ordinary human being, but that does not mean that a tiger is useful than the human being. That is not the way. [break] ...I ask, natural answer you gave, "Because it is disconnected with the mother." That is natural answer. Then how you can say the life has come from matter? Immediately you are captured. Can you say like that, that life has come without life? And they are making us believe like that. Rāmeśvara: The body is matter. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Rāmeśvara: So at a certain stage life enters it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: At a certain stage... Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: ...of development the life enters. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Therefore they say they can abort the baby. They say that... Prabhupāda: That they do not know, when the soul enters. The soul enters in the first night when pregnancy begins. Otherwise how it will grow? Life begins from that point. It grows one day, two day, three day, five day, one month, three months, like that. But the growing, growth, begins from that very point. If the life has got shelter between the two secretions of father and mother, then it grows. Rāmeśvara: That is the only explanation. Prabhupāda: That is the only explanation. Rāmeśvara: They are very bewildered. They cannot imagine how a cell within the body is growing. They cannot imagine that there is a soul within it. Or a plant from a seed. They can never understand these things. Actually it's a fact. When we studied in biology before we became devotees, they never explained how the tree comes from the seed. Prabhupāda: The seed creates a favorable situation, and the life comes. On account of the life's presence, it grows, it develops. This is right explanation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes we say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that when the body is useless, then the soul leaves, just like giving up an old pair of clothes. But sometimes we see that someone in very good health, youthful, all of a sudden they give up their body. Prabhupāda: You are very healthy. Is there any guarantee that you will not die? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, there's no guarantee. Prabhupāda: That is the life.(?) You may be very stout and strong. The death may take from so many causes. It does not depend on your healthy body. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: When you say that we are kicked out, is it literally that we are kicked out of this body? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even if one is very attached. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) *Car Conversation-*-July 21, 1976, New York *Rāmeśvara: And I've been told that all the TV stations showed our Ratha*-yātrā. That means millions of people saw the ratha cart. And everyone has seen it in the newspapers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: That Newsday also had coverage. We didn't get that paper for Prabhupāda, but they also... This is even before their interview. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. What about Newsweek and...? Rāmeśvara: When those interviews that those reporters took are published, we'll send them to you immediately. (aside) Newsday, Associated Press and Newsweek. [break] Prabhupāda: ...higher(?) to temple. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not exactly. We go, probably, over the Fifty*-ninth Street bridge, right? *Ādi*-keśava: I think it would be better now to go through the tunnel. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're going over the tunnel, into the tunnel. What street is that? Fifty...? *Ādi*-keśava: About Thirtieth Street. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You think that's faster? *Ādi*-keśava: Yes, it goes right under... [break] Rāmeśvara: ...people of New York are appreciating, Prabhupāda, how you came here alone and now you have a big building with many followers. Actually the people are aware, very much aware of how you started this movement in New York. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And were struggling personally. [break] Prabhupāda: ...life there is struggle. Without struggling there is no... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not be, try to avoid struggle. Prabhupāda: No. Because we have got preaching point of view. Preaching means struggling. If it was simply bhajana, you can sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] "There's one credit that I have. I was never a lazy fellow." Prabhupāda: Yes, throughout my life. (end) *Interview with Religion Editor of The Observer-*-July 23, 1976, London Prabhupāda: I think I saw you before? No Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Cline Cross, who is the religious correspondent for The Observer. This is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. And this is Tony McGraw, who is a photographer. Jayatīrtha: The Observer is one of the most respected newspapers. Prabhupāda: You can give chair. Cline Cross: No, I'll sit on the floor. I'll sit this way. Jayatīrtha: You sure you're comfortable this way? We can bring a chair. Cline Cross: Yes, I can... No, a chair would give the wrong atmosphere. Prabhupāda: So you are observing our movement? Cline Cross: Yes, really for the first time at close quarters. Prabhupāda: First time? We are here for the last seven years. Cline Cross: Yes, I know a little about you, but it's only in the last hour that I've really begun to learn. Jayatīrtha: We showed him the movie, Prabhupāda: Your paper is Observer. Why did you not observe for the last seven years? (laughter) Mukunda: We just showed him our film. Prabhupāda: How did you like? Cline Cross: Oh, it was very interesting. Again it taught me a lot that I did not previously know. Prabhupāda: We are trying to give real life. The present civilization is... (to someone else): Hare Kṛṣṇa, but... How are you? (converses in Hindi) So you are religious observer. What is your idea of religion? *Cline Cross: I would say much the same as yours, from what I've seen in your writings*-that there's an underlying truth behind all religion. Would you agree with that? Prabhupāda: Religion, as it is explained in the dictionary, "accepting a supreme controller." Is it not? So do the people accept a supreme controller? Do they accept? There are so many system of religions, but do they actually know who is the supreme controller? That is my question. What do you think? Just like, this is British government, and we know that the Queen is the supreme controller. Similarly, of all creation, cosmic manifestation, there is a supreme controller, and who is that supreme controller? Do they know it? That is my question. Cline Cross: I mean, what is your attitude towards Christianity? Prabhupāda: Don't come to Christianity. I'm talking on religion, the science of religion. The religion... When we speak of religion, there is no question of Christianity or Muslim or Hindu. Just like when they speak of gold, gold is gold everywhere. Gold cannot be Muslim gold or Hindu gold or Christian gold. We are concerned with gold, not the country where the gold is produced. That is not very important thing. Whether it is gold, that is our business. Cline Cross: I mean, would you count Jesus Christ as gold? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? He's speaking about the supreme controller, God, so why should we not? Anyone who is speaking about God... [break] Religion without science or philosophy is sentiment. And philosophy without religion is mental speculation. So they must be combined together. So far the controller is concerned, this is scientific understanding. Just like the father... We consider... Why we? Everyone. Either he is Christian or Muhammadan or Hindu, the conception of God is generally accepted as the supreme father. Cline Cross: I mean, it is a fact. Prabhupāda: It is fact. Cline Cross: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because, just like anything, creation means the mother, the father and the children. That is our practical experience. Without mother, we are nowhere. We are given birth by the mother. So the material nature is the mother. From the material nature, material elements, everything is coming. From the water the fishes are coming, from the land the grass, the worms, and then human being, they are coming. From the air also living entities are coming. So therefore material nature is the mother, and we have come out of the material nature, therefore we are children. Then there must be father, because without father, simply mother cannot give birth. This is science. You cannot deny the existence of God simply by a false argument. This is real argument. The mother is there, material nature, and we are children there. There must be father. Cline Cross: In England, the Christian Church in recent years or recent decades has been doing very badly and losing support. Your teaching could perhaps provide a substitute for the more traditional type of Christian teaching. *Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the science. Therefore I say religion without scientific idea, that is sentiment. It has no value. This is basic principle of religion that the mother is there, the children are there*-there must be father. If you say "I do not see what is God," it doesn't matter. Sometimes the child after birth does not see his father. But that does not mean that he has no father, because without father there is no possibility of his existence. Cline Cross: What impelled you personally, when you, at a fairly late stage in life, to come to the West to teach? *Prabhupāda: I must be prepared to teach. Teaching is not so easy thing. I was ordered to teach at the age of twenty*-five years by my Guru Mahārāja. But I was finding out the opportunity how to take up the work. So it took me so many years, so that at seventy years I came out for teaching. Cline Cross: Why particularly in the West? Prabhupāda: Because my Guru Mahārāja ordered that "You go and teach this gospel in the Western world." Jayatīrtha: His teacher instructed him to do this. Cline Cross: Yes. And are you surprised at the great success you've had? Prabhupāda: That is my Guru Mahārāja's blessing. He ordered me, I tried my best, so there is little success. When I see so many boys and hundreds of centers, they are living very peacefully in a nice house, getting good prasādam, having good knowledge in the books, and reforming their character, and getting some good home, that is my success. Otherwise, they are loitering, no home, no character, no peace of mind. So at least this is my success. I have given so many boys a life. That is my success. Cline Cross: Well, I'm very honored to have met you. I've read some of your work. I intend to read more. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are trying to give the best service to the humanity, human society, and this is the only service. People should come forward and cooperate with us. It is not a sectarian sentimental religious system. It is a scientific understanding of the value of life. Cline Cross: Well, thank you very much indeed, sir. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end) *Conversation at House of Kñérodakaçäyé däsa-*-July 25, 1976, London (kīrtana in background) *Jayatīrtha: ...was sitting previously, which was being worshiped at this place. So he sat down because he was thinking that he was good as standing up, same as standing up. So one Vaiṣṇava priest who was taking care of the place, he threw him out. So in the book they complained that the Vaiṣṇavas are considered to be very narrow*-minded (laughter). Now I can understand... Prabhupāda: Here. He was kicked out. Jayatīrtha: Yes, the boy threw him out. So they were complaining about this. Prabhupāda: Just see. How bogus he was. No, when I go to met in Hollywood that, in the beginning that Prabhavananda, the rascal said that "Ramakrishna was formerly Caitanya Mahāprabhu." He began like that. Then I could understand "What a rascal he is, and I have to waste my time." So I did not answer anything. I said, "Thank you very much for your meeting," and I went out. This Ramakrishna rascal's first proposal was that Ramakrishna Thakura was formerly Caitanya. This is beginning. He was so rascal. (pause) (sounds of massage?) This is framework house. If some of the swamis may have said, they say that "Why you call us rascal and so many things?" So you say that "We are not calling you. Kṛṣṇa says. So we are pushing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have to repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's it. We cannot help it. Kṛṣṇa says na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious; therefore you must be mūḍha." Jayatīrtha: The best thing Kṛṣṇa has to say about them is that they are abuddhayaḥ. The best thing Kṛṣṇa says about them is they are unintelligent. Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ [Bg. 7.24]. *Prabhupāda: Abuddhayaḥ, no intelligence. And similarly, those who are demigod*-worshipers, they have been described, naṣṭa-buddhayaḥ, "lost of intelligence." These are statements in the Bhagavad-gītā. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness; we have to say. How we can avoid this? It may be displeasing to you, but we are not... (laughter) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We are not sorry. No, I mean to say the other party. But we have to say it. Indian devotee (2): No, they all very pleased. They are all very pleased there. I say, when you can get off and Prabhupāda again comes, take prasādam, you can get off on that. They are waiting, but they will not take prasāda unless Prabhupāda's... They are about, oh, about two hundred people nowadays. This temple here, all garden full? Prabhupāda: Yes. So they liked, but I spoke very strong thing against Ramakrishna. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Because you spoke the truth, facts. Prabhupāda: And I challenged that "Any question? Please come." Dr. Kapoor says that... Indian man: O.B.L. Kapoor? Vṛndāvana... Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, yes. That "Bhaktivedanta Swami speaks as strongly as Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī was speaking." You know that? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Oh, yes. I met so many times. I understand also. Prabhupāda: He said that. Jayatīrtha: Very nice compliment. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: He also said that "Śrīla Prabhupāda is only one who has really taken the, his mission seriously." Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Of course, I don't say myself. That will not look good, but there is other... They, all my Godbrothers, realize it. "But he is only representative." Somebody, they frankly admit, and somebody do not. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I met... Some they are starting coming here to see how the things are. (laughs) They all came. Still they are coming. I think... Somebody said that Bon Mahārāja came. Prabhupāda: He came here? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Not here. I mean in London. Not here, I never invite anybody, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, no. London he came? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes I heard. I don't know. Somebody was telling. And so many swamis, so many, from Vṛndāvana they are coming. Because many, many guests come, Prabhupāda, in the weekend or during the day. They tell me that "Would you like to go? Some swami has come, some..." "Our swami is already here." (laughs) Prabhupāda: That's it. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: They invite some invitation. They have had a big international religious conference in Millford a few weeks back, and all the professors, universities and big, big shark(?) have got... And I understand... Prabhupāda: Mūḍhas. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: (laughs) Mūḍhas, yes. So I understand... Some of the friends said it was a big feast and all that, but there was nothing, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They never talk about the Lord. They were simply arguing each other, "I think so." (laughs) Prabhupāda: This is their business. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Big, big professor from the university, from Glasgow, so many professors. Big pamphlet came to me. They all sent to... They sent it to this place here. I don't know from where they get the address or the name all that, and they sent, many, many of these new societies. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Keep our standard. Then everyone will give assistance. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We got many times, many visitors here. One time that church come here to see how things are. Chinese people came, Englishmen. One of the lady, not very far from here, she came one morning, said "My brother is in the hospital, and he is very sick. I know you are a pious people. Can you pray for him?" And "You pray the Lord. You come here. Lord is here." And... Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not very far from here. Said, "We hear the noise in the morning, and we have got these feelings that these are very good thing." Jayatīrtha: Oh, this was an English person who came. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: English, yes. She is feeling in the heart. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I... We can. By your grace, Kṛṣṇa is here, and we have no intention to come from there. I had intention that let the children go back home. And we fight, all this stuff. I say, "All right, we must start to fully educate him." Full education is that he become advanced in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: So I said "We haven't got any education." Under the law of this country, if they have to remain here, they have to go up to sixteen years to the school. Prabhupāda: No, education is good, but the association is... Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No, they don't have any asso... They don't go anywhere. They don't eat anywhere. Even so many invitations come, either they go to the library or they go to the temple or this place. They have no friends, nothing else. They don't even take the water anywhere, even to my brother's house. They don't take anywhere. Prabhupāda: Your brother is also here? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, he's here. And he was not very good terms last eight years with me. But when I established this temple, by your grace, Prabhupāda, he has also realized it now that this is good. And my difference with him was that "You should give up this nonsense of drinking this, all these things." That was only..., nothing else, about money or anything. I say, "I cannot eat at your place unless you give up these things." I go there, don't eat anything. Prabhupāda: Still, he drinks. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Still he drinks. That is the fact. He doesn't eat meat, of course, but he says... He has got good business, plenty of money. I am poor materially, but my father, spiritual father, is so rich that I am getting money every day. Materially, I am poor, but I am so richer, you are giving so treasure... You see in our library there each and every of your book downstairs, and more we read, we say, well plenty money is... [break] ...from the temple. Life member comes there, sell the Gujarati magazine. I bought all magazines from Gujarati. Now second issue has not come. The same problem. Prabhupāda: This is, have printed. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: But whatever I brought, it went within two, three weeks. Prabhupāda: So Yaśomatīnandana? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: (Hindi) ...that "The next issue is in the press, and I'll soon send." And Gopāla dāsa I also written. Because there are many Gujaratis here, and they are becoming life members... They are helping very much. Anybody comes here, we send out to the Manor. I say, "Here Kṛṣṇa is... Here we are. Here we have got everything by Kṛṣṇa's grace, and all the help should go to this center." Prabhupāda: You are preparing something of bitter melon? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Bitter? You mean the... Prabhupāda: Karelās, yes. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: (Hindi) [break] Harikeśa: How much is left? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No, no, we just starting it. Prabhupāda approved that, starting, starting with two chapters three times. *Prabhupāda: No, you can do one thing. Part by part, you publish in the Bhāgavata*-darśana so that he can, everyone can see how it is. Then it will be good.(?) Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Oh, yes. No, I showed to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu when he came here. He also came here. He came one day here, so I showed all these and I read little bit. Prabhupāda: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa himself is not very expert. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No. So I said that "Śrīla Prabhupāda is coming now," so if you get a chance... Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that whatever you have written, let it be published in the... So that everyone can see. Then we can understand. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: So I will send to India chapter by chapter, and they can publish... *Prabhupāda: With a letter that "Prabhupāda says like this, that you print in the Hindi edition of Bhāgavata*-darśana so that everyone will see, and will judge how it is done nicely." Harikeśa: Should I make this? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I'll send first chapter complete. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Duplicate it and keep one copy with me here and one copy send off, and they can publish in the Back to Godhead here. Prabhupāda: The difficulty is that in India, in different parts of India different standard. Somebody says, "This standard is good"; somebody says, "This standard is good." Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Well, we are not worried about the criticism. Prabhupāda: Eh? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We are not worried about the criticism, anybody say. What you say we'll take that one line, the guide line. Prabhupāda: No, I am not authority in Hindi, but this Hindi, different parts of India, a different standard. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, that's true. That is why I had not depend on myself. It going from the four people different, one after another, and they are qualified Sanskrit and Hindi scholars. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let it be published. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Complete corrections also. It's not going by... Prabhupāda: So you can show me some samples which you have completed. Yes, you can show me some. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, devotees are asking can you take prasāda and go to manor? There's some press coming, but without you they're... Is it all right? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All right. I will take some time. I ordered... Harikeśa: Others, they are also waiting. Indians, they... Prabhupāda: So let them all take. You can also go down. [break] (Prabhupāda moves outside) Indian woman: ...and translate into English. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Do it. You do. Give him the book. Simply book. Why you are taking the...? Yes. (Indian man speaking in Hindi about "Nature, the Enjoyer and Consciousness" for several minutes) Indian man (2): (Hindi) Should I read the translation in Hindi? Prabhupāda: Yes, so that... Kṣīrodakaśāyī: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: You can explain this. Yes. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: *Kṛṣṇa has spoken about the kṣetrajña. Kṣetrajña means the knower of the body, as He has already explained, that "I know that this is my finger." I never say, "I finger." So this body is kṣetrajña, the field of activities, and the soul is the proprietor or worker within the body. That is called kṣetrajña. This is already explained. He tried to explain... Because there are many ladies, so he tried to explain in Hindi. So here in the next verse Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi: "I am also kṣetrajña. I am also one of the knower of the body." So what is the difference between the one kṣetrajña already explained, the soul, and this kṣetrajña, Kṛṣṇa? What is the difference between the two? That is explained here. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am also kṣetrajña."Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "But the distinction is that the individual soul is situated in that particular body, but I am situated in every body, all-pervading." Sometimes they commit mistake that ātmā and Paramātmā, they are the same, but that is not the fact. Here Kṛṣṇa explains very distinctly that "I am also ātmā, but I am Paramātmā." That is the distinction between God and ourselves. When Arjuna understood Bhagavad-gītā, he addressed Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. Paraṁ brahma. They are anxious to realize Brahman, that I... ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi does not mean that "I am Paraṁ Brahman." "I am individual part and parcel of Brahman." Similarly, ātmā, Paramātmā; īśvara, Parameśvara. We should understand this distinction between ātmā, Paramātmā: Brahman, Parabrahman; *īśvara, Parameśvara. So in the Vedic literature it is said, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Īśvara. Īśvara means controller. Every one of us, we are controller, either I control over my family or in my office or in my country. In this way everyone is a controller. I may be a controller. Not may be. In my limited jurisdiction I am also controller. You are also controller. So I may be a little greater controller, you may be a smaller controller and somebody may be greater than me. So in this way, if you study controllers, different types of controllers, you'll find there is junior and senior. The same person is senior controller in the family, but in the office he's a junior controller. The same person is junior and senior at the same time. Somewhere he is junior, somewhere he is senior. In this way, if you study all different types of controller, you'll see there is duality of controls, but when you approach somebody that He's simply controller-He's not controlled by others*-that is Kṛṣṇa. This is analytical study of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So they have studied all these Vedic scholars, especially Lord Brahmā. This is the statement of Lord Brahmā. Not only Lord Brahmā, Vyāsadeva, Nārada and recently big, big ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, even Śaṅkarācārya and latest, five hundred years ago, Lord Caitanya-everyone has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme controller. And in the dictionary you'll find... What is religion? Religion means to accept a supreme controller. That is religion. So in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means the controlling laws given by God. That is called dharma. So real dharma... From all Vedic scriptures, from the version of all authorities, it is confirmed that īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]: "Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Every religion has conception of God, but no religious system in this world has got any clear conception of God. But in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement it is not actually a so-called religious movement, but it is an educational movement to give information to the human society about God, that "Here is God." You are searching after God, and somebody, in disappointment saying that "God is dead." God is neither dead, nor it is fictitious, but it is factual, and here is this God, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. This is the verdict of the Vedic literature. There may be many other gods. They are expansions of the original Personality of Godhead. If anyone is interested to study the science of God, you'll find it in the Vedic literature, how Kṛṣṇa expands by His plenary portion in different names of God. It is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam [Bs. 5.33]. That Absolute Truth is advaita, without any duality; *acyuta, infallible. Advaita, acyuta, anādi. Everything has got it's beginning, anything you... That is our material conception because we have got the experience*-anything we take, it has got a beginning. But Kṛṣṇa, He is described, advaita, acyuta, anādi: "He has no beginning." And in another place it is also said, Kāraṇam is the beginning. So just like my father is the cause of my personality; *father, his father is the cause of his personality. In this way you try to find out the cause of the cause. You'll find Kṛṣṇa as the cause of all causes. Sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. Everything must be caused by something. Cause and effect. So the śāstra gives the verdict that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes. *So this institution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we have started. Now we have opened this center. I am very glad that you are coming here, but study the science of Kṛṣṇa. Don't remain blind. The science of Kṛṣṇa means science of God. The human life is meant for understanding the science of God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the Vedānta*-sūtra. "This human form of life is meant for inquiring about the Absolute Truth-Brahman." That Brahman, Parabrahman, is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, when Arjuna studied Bhagavad-gītā, his conclusion was... He addressed immediately, "Kṛṣṇa," paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. Bhavān. "Yourself..." So don't waste your time even by a minute. Try to understand the science of Kṛṣṇa. That is the only business. Other business, they are subsidiary. They are not very important business. Why Kṛṣṇa understanding is important business? Because it will give you liberation from this material condition life. We are foolishly thinking we are very independent, we can do whatever we like, but that is not the fact. The fact is we are completely dependent on the laws of material nature. Even if you defy a little bit, immediately you'll be punished. That is the strict laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. So we do not understand. There is no education throughout the whole world how we are being controlled by the material nature and why we are being controlled. Why we are put into this position of being controlled? These questions should be raised. That is human life. Otherwise it is animal life. The cats and dogs, they cannot inquire, "Why I am being controlled?" But they agree to be controlled. But human life there is struggle. They are called struggle for existence. They are trying to overcome the control of material nature by so-called scientific method, but that is not the way. You cannot do that. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Just like their so-called scientific way. They are trying to go to the moon planet or Mars planet. Why they are trying to go? Because they are controlled. They have got their flying machine. They can to go any planet, but they cannot because they are being controlled. So we should come to our senses that we cannot bring the laws of material nature under our control. We are already under the control of the laws of material nature, and that is our conditional life. Actually, we require freedom from conditional life, but that freedom can be achieved when we surrender to Kṛṣṇa. *If you actually want to be not to be controlled by the laws of material nature, that you can do. That is possible. And that is possible simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa. So we are presenting this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not a manufactured thing. We are quoting from Bhagavad*-gītā the same thing. We are not presenting something manufactured. There is no need, because things in perfection is already there in the Bhagavad-gītā. There is no need of manufacturing by fools and rascals. There is no need. Everything is there in perfection. Simply we have to accept it and apply it in practical life. Then our life will be successful. Simply we have to understand it. Kṛṣṇa says that janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. Simply to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is... Then jānāti tattvataḥ, anyone who is able to understand Kṛṣṇa in truth, then what is the result? The result is tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya: [Bg. 4.9] "Such person, after giving up this body, he does not accept another material body." At the present moment we are giving up one material body and accepting another material body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. This is our conditional life, but we are kept in such dense darkness of knowledge that we are thinking that "We are free. We can do whatever we like." This is very dangerous civilization-no knowledge of the spiritual life, no knowledge how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another, no knowledge what is the future, no knowledge what is the goal of life. Simply like cats and dogs, you dance, eat, drink, be merry and die, that's all. This is not good life. You must be very serious, especially those who are Indians. They should take it very seriously. Because this Kṛṣṇa culture, Bhagavad-gītā, was spoken in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra in India, and we Indians, we do not take full advantage of this great transcendental knowledge, then you are committing suicide. So my request is, all the Indians who are here in this foreign country, keep your own original culture. Don't forget. Don't be bewildered. Be in your position. Try to under... It is very easy. Bhagavad-gītā is not at all difficult to understand, and we have tried to explain as easy as possible, not that we have deviated from the original verse, just like others do it. We do not do that; *there is no need. That is another blunder. We keep Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and we still try to explain it. So I am very glad that you are all coming regularly, but take it. At least one day, this Sunday, you devote, seriously studying Bhagavad-gītā, and discuss amongst you whenever there is any doubt. There cannot be any doubt. The Bhagavad-gītā verses are so plainly explained, and... Just like here is one verse. We are trying to read. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "My dear Arjuna..." Arjuna is addressed as Bhārata. Because he belongs to the dynasty of Bharata, sometimes he's addressed as Bhārata. So, very easy, that "I am also one of the souls. There are two souls. One, you are, and another, I am. So what is the difference between you and me?" That you know simply everything, not everything, but to some extent, about your body, but I know everything of everyone's body. That is the difference. I know the pleasure and pains of my body, you know the pleasure and pains of your body, but Kṛṣṇa knows the pleasure and pains of your body and pleasure and pains of my body. That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and ourself. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Kṛṣṇa is situated... Kṛṣṇa is not stereotyped in one place. Kṛṣṇa, He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ [Bs. 5.37]. That is Kṛṣṇa. I am sitting here; *you are sitting here. I am not in my apartment, but Kṛṣṇa, although He is sitting in this temple, He is present everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. In this way we have to study Kṛṣṇa very scientifically, and the books are there, and we have tried to explain as far as possible. Take advantage of this institution. Don't waste a moment of your life. Take it very seriously. Āyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi na labhyaḥ svarṇa-koṭibhiḥ. Take seriousness... Especially those who are educated, they should take serious consideration of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Try to understand each and every verse of Bhagavad-gītā, especially, and, if possible, Bhāgavatam. There are so many books. We have got program to publish at least eighty-four books like this, four hundred pages each. So we have already published fifty-four books. So if you want to understand Kṛṣṇa through science and philosophy, read these books. Otherwise*-very easy method-come here; chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. There is no difficulty. Thank you very much. (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 26, 1976, London Prabhupāda: Here he is. Generally you are preaching here, preaching nice? *Pṛthu*-putra: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: You know French? *Pṛthu*-putra: Yes, I am from France originally. Prabhupāda: So what is your new publication? Bhagavān: So I have a big surprise. Devotees: Whew! Wow! It's fabulous! Wow! *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Hari-śauri: This will make Rāmeśvara very envious. Bhagavān: This is special. This is on all volumes. Prabhupāda: Oh, how many chapters? Bhagavān: Up to chapter nine. Prabhupāda: Oh, First Canto. Bhagavān: Half of First Canto. *Prabhupāda: Yes, twenty. Rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī... How many copies you have printed? *Bhagavān: Twenty*-five thousand. Prabhupāda: Already on sales? No. Bhagavān: No, these are the first few. Prabhupāda: Oh, accha. Bhagavān: There's a preface by a very famous professor. He has spoken very, very highly. Prabhupāda: Read. What does it say? *Pṛthu*-putra: (translating) (sic:) "The classical induries(?) based on sacred scriptures from which the eighteen great Purāṇas has a central place. These vast poems, their character give theologic teaching is giving all the knowledge of the Veda, and in the substance of the Purāṇa there is the face of the Indian populations. While reciting them in the temples and the preacher are giving commentaries in the assembly of devotees, which is called sankīrtana. This teaching read to the chant and dancing on the glories of the Lord Bhagavān. Amongst all these Purāṇas, the most famous is the Bhāgavata-Purāṇa, called Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, because this literary form is achieved the most beautiful, and also because it's the poem which is expressing the best the doctrine of the faith that Sri Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, Purusottama, the principle of everything, the absolute unique without second, advaitam-brahman. Like in the Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā, the Lord reveals His majesty in plain. Much more than an avatara of Visnu, He appears in our eyes like the unique God. Towards Him all devotion is due. The French people are honored to have, from the beginning of the nineteenth century, to have the first edition of Bhāgavata-Purāṇa, but from long time already this work of the great Beurnuf"-that's the man who translated Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in nineteenth century in French-"is the reason why we have to thank very much the association, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, to give us that very big text, one of the master book of the humanity. This book is very benefic, and with the translation of the Sanskrit there is a commentary, the majestical commentary, which is given verse after verse by the master, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder of the association. As he did it with the Bhagavad-gītā, which was published in French in 1975 with the preface of a Professor Harvi Delacombe, Swami Prabhupāda explains word by word each mantra -stanza or sacred text-before to give a signification. Then the reader can judge every pieces, what is the meaning of the teaching of the master by confrontation with the text itself..." Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pṛthu*-putra: "And there is also an index and some notes which are giving the work much more easy for the reader, even the profound. This teaching took its root in the teaching of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, that prophet of Kṛṣṇa's. His preaching in Bengal in Orissa in sixteenth century is again appear deeper for the devotion to Bhagavān. Srila Prabhupāda is descending in the disciplic succession, direct vamsa, from Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His first disciples, the famous Gosvāmīs. It is a considerable advantage for the French public to have these volumes where there is a vitality manifested from one of these past pantha, which are the most followed by the followers of the Hinduism. We hope that there is a large distribution of this tradition and commentary of the Bhāgavata-Purāṇa. Anyone who is interested in the life of India can find the authentic teaching, spiritual teaching authorized, and can also have access to one of the most beautiful religious poem from the Hindu tradition." This is the.... It's wonderful. Prabhupāda: Yes, very good. Jayatīrtha: What was his name? *Pṛthu*-putra: Jean Vardin Bhagavān: You met him several years ago, two years ago, when you were in France. Prabhupāda: Yes, I met one... Bhagavān: He took all your books. Prabhupāda: Yes. So he likes our... Bhagavān: . Oh, yes. We are very respected in the country. Prabhupāda: That's nice. You must keep our position. Yes. *Bhagavān: Big Bhagavad*-gītā, we have distributed fifty thousand. *Prabhupāda: Oh. This is Bhagavad*-gītā. Bhagavān: This is *Bhāgavatam*. Prabhupāda: *Bhāgavatam*. *Bhagavān: And big Bhagavad*-gītā, the big one, last year you saw. Prabhupāda: I can see. Bhagavān: We distributed fifty thousand. Prabhupāda: Already distributed? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Bhagavān: And we printed that little Bhagavad*-gītā, remember? That we've distributed twenty-five thousand. So seventy-five thousand Bhagavad-gītā one year. Prabhupāda: Very good. *Bhagavān: And this is twenty*-five thousand. Kṛṣṇa book, first half, will be ready on August 8th, twenty-five thousand also. Prabhupāda: First half... Bhagavān: Would you like to see the design for the cover? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: This is... Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhagavān: This will be Kṛṣṇa book, 650 pages. Jayatīrtha: This will also be coming out? Bhagavān: Yeah. This is just the press proof. It needs improvement. Prabhupāda: Fifty thousand? *Bhagavān: Twenty*-five thousand. The translators have been working day and night for the last two weeks to get everything ready. They are now in Italy. We are printing this book in Italy. Prabhupāda: Oh. Cheaper? Bhagavān: Very cheap. Very cheap. Including composition, the book cost $1.75. Prabhupāda: Oh, very cheap. *Bhagavān: Sixty*-four color pictures. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. *Bhagavān: And Upadeśāmṛta, that is coming out in one week, twenty*-five thousand copies. Prabhupāda: Which book selling now? Bhagavān: Which book are we selling right now? *Gītā*, and we'll have a quantity of this in about three weeks, and then we'll begin selling *Bhāgavatam*, and *Īśopaniṣad*, Easy Journey, Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: French language is understood practically all over Europe, especially France, Switzerland. Bhagavān: Switzerland, Montreal, Belgium... *Pṛthu*-putra: Luxembourg and Belgium also, they are French-speaking. *Bhagavān: And Africa. Much countries in Africa are French*-speaking. Prabhupāda: Oh. You can sell in Mauritius. Bhagavān: Yes. I send books to Mauritius. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone speaks French. *Bhagavān: Did you see the color printing inside? It's also very nice. They have done the same.... This was last year in Paris, when you received Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: It's a nice picture. Everyone who sees it says how friendly Prabhupāda is. Hari-śauri: This one is downstairs. George Harrison immediately pointed to it and said, "Oh, that's a wonderful picture." Prabhupāda: Yes, it is Vaiṣṇava picture. Vaiṣṇava is always humble. (looking at picture) Jagannātha Purī. Bhagavān: They are distributing these books for no less than ten dollars each. Jayatīrtha: Ten dollars each? Fifty francs. *Bhagavān: Fifty francs, ten dollars. This is Gaura*-Nitai, New Mayapura. Prabhupāda: Baltimore? Bhagavān: At the farm. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayatīrtha: They are similar to the ones in Baltimore. I saw that picture. One boy from Baltimore just came here, Śrutadeva. Bhagavān: We have done this like in the English, with the explanation on this side. Jayatīrtha: C'est magnifique. (laughter) Bhagavān: The color has come out nicely. Prabhupāda: Yes. They like pictures? Bhagavān: Oh, yes. Jayatīrtha: The French are much different than the Germans. Bhagavān: This on the back, this explains the end pages here, so people can see the whole picture, and the explanation is given here. Hari-śauri: Will that be in every canto? Every book.... Bhagavān: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Read what he.... Bhagavān: This is another appreciation here. This is from a doctor in the University of Neuchatel. It's in Switzerland. He's a Swiss doctor. *Pṛthu*-putra: (translating) "The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is most known under the name of Bhāgavata-Purāṇa. The Sanskrit word Purāṇa means 'ancient, old work.' It is a commentary on the Vedānta-sūtra by Vyasadeva, its author, from which we also learn about the Mahabharata. From a general way, but particularly the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the Purāṇa is a true encyclopedia containing all the aspects of the life of spirit. We have to see that this great work is containing all the predictions, this, of realizing in every detail. Then it is very important to point out that the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam under its poetic form is a very actual by the subject which it's treating about. The truth is one and universal, and the tradition of this work is always valuable. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is an essential development of the Bhagavad-gītā. It's talking about the questions metaphysical, philosophical, religious, psychologic, political and social. The wonderful tradition of Swami Prabhupāda is inspired from the same principles that the one who guided him in his translation of the Bhagavad-gītā. Every Sanskrit verse is written in Latin characters and then a literary version. The commentary, which is referring always from the Veda, Upaniṣad, and other texts, is allowing the reader to make spiritual progress. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is a precious work and will be revealed for a lot of people from the Western. And there is a very urgent need to spread this message throughout the world." Jayatīrtha: Ah! It's a very good decision. Bhagavān: Doctor of letters. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: These European scholars are very appreciative of your books. Bhagavān: Every book comes with these bookmarks. *Prabhupāda: Oh, bookmark. So, it is another step forward. (laughs) Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi*-grāma. Bhagavān: The saṅkīrtana devotees, they are distributing always in dhoti. Prabhupāda: Like him. Bhagavān: They do not wear the karmī clothes. Prabhupāda: Just see. Bhagavān: And they are having nice success also. They go into the offices, into the.... They are walking everywhere. Even the hospitals they are going. Prabhupāda: There is no obstruction. Bhagavān: No. (laughs) They are very determined. Jayatīrtha: In France the atmosphere is very nice. Prabhupāda: So why your cloth is so dirty? *Pṛthu*-putra: I just traveled with him. Prabhupāda: For a sannyāsī it is very nice. So people may not dislike it, but for a sannyāsī this is very nice. *Bhagavān: He's doing very nicely, Pṛthu*-putra. He's having many preaching engagements. *Prabhupāda: Very good. That is wanted. Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam. So when the whole lot will be delivered? Bhagavān: End of August. Prabhupāda: End of August? Oh. *Bhagavān: Twenty*-five thousand. And same, Kṛṣṇa book also, twenty-five thousand. Prabhupāda: Yes, this cover is wonderful. Jayatīrtha: Very beautiful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: In France especially they will appreciate it, so ornate. Prabhupāda: Same size? Bhagavān: Same size, same thickness, all the same as the *Gītā*. It's a whole library of books. Hari-śauri: You doing a color scheme on the different color for each canto? Bhagavān: Maybe not, maybe keep the same. Prabhupāda: There will be three parts or two? Bhagavān: Two parts. Prabhupāda: So give Bhagavān prabhu nice prasādam. Our, the devotees only eat prasādam. Bhagavān: My prasāda was sitting here. I'm sorry to hear that you are so sick. You are sick. Prabhupāda: Yes. Should have, cough, to stop.(?) The coughing is continuing and practically no appetite, and palpitation of heart. Going up the step is.... So how under this condition I can travel? It is not... Bhagavān: Very difficult Prabhupāda: Yes. When you came back from India? *Pṛthu*-putra: Three months ago. Prabhupāda: From Vṛndāvana? *Pṛthu*-putra: From Bombay. I was last in Bombay. Bhagavān: You have been like this for some time? Prabhupāda: It has begun from New York, eh? Hari-śauri: Yeah, you had kidney trouble in New York, and then immediately after that, coughing and.... When we came on the plane it grew worse. Prabhupāda: One doctor came, he gave me three bags of tablets. Hari-śauri: He wanted to give you five. He gave us five different prescriptions. Prabhupāda: I did not take anything, tablet. Rather, what one I was taking, I have stopped that also. Jayatīrtha: You do not put very much faith in these doctors. Prabhupāda: What this medicine will help? Hari-śauri: Most of the medicine he gave was to dull your senses so much that you wouldn't feel any pain, or would make you sleep for six hours at a time or, like this. Prabhupāda: So in the village how many devotees are there? Bhagavān: At the farm? Almost two hundred. Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. Bhagavān: They are waiting for you. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes, they must be waiting. So farming is going? Farming? Bhagavān: Oh, yes, we've just harvested barley and oats, big harvest, and the farm is supplying beans, cauliflower right now, and tomatoes. They have planted three thousand tomato plants, and all the farmers, they are asking how we have done. Prabhupāda: And milk? Bhagavān: We have not bought many cows yet. We will. Prabhupāda: No, no milk at all? No cows? Bhagavān: Oh, yes, we have five cows, six cows. Prabhupāda: So getting milk. Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: They have got large quantity of milk in Philadelphia. *Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes, very good cows there. They bought the best cows, first*-class cows. *Prabhupāda: They have got tank, one*-fourth of this room. Bhagavān: In New Vrindaban? *Jayatīrtha: No, in Philadelphia, New Barṣaṇa. First*-class farm. *Prabhupāda: They have very well managed. And everyone is eating very nicely. (laughter) Similarly in New Vrindaban. What is the.... I want this, that you have sufficient grain, sufficient milk, then where is your economic question? And from milk, by intelligence you can get so many preparation*-luci, puri, halava, rasagulla, sandesh, rabri, wonderful. *Bhagavān: There is one boy, one of our sankīrtana devotees, who previously was a farmer. His father has given him a farm in the north of France. So recently he has given us his whole crop of hay for the cows. The value of that was thirty thousand dollars. It's enough hay to supply twenty*-five or thirty cows for two years, and on top of that he's able to get a loan from the bank of forty-five thousand dollars for twenty years at four percent. Prabhupāda: To be repaid. Bhagavān: Yes. But this he can use to purchase cows and build barn. Prabhupāda: Only four percent. How their bank is giving so cheap? Bhagavān: Because he's a farmer. They're helping... Prabhupāda: Oh, farmers... Jayatīrtha: Special concession for farmers to help farm. Prabhupāda: That means government encouraging farming. Bhagavān: Yes. Jayatīrtha: Because no one wants to farm anymore these days. I heard that, especially in France. *Pṛthu*-putra: Yes, especially in France. Bhagavān: We have also paid our loan to Los Angeles. One month ago I paid seventeen thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: So you, you can take back loan. Bhagavān: I was holding it for him, but then he said he didn't need it right away, so I sent it to Los Angeles. Jayatīrtha: We hadn't determined what building. Prabhupāda: So you have.... That building you should purchase. Jayatīrtha: Yes, now I'll get the money. Prabhupāda: You have got twenty thousand, and he has already paid seventeen thousand, so I think you can collect fifty thousand immediately. If you want, I can give you also four, five thousand, not less. Jayatīrtha: Yes, that money in the Lloyd's Bank account? Yes, we will give you better interest than the bank. *Prabhupāda: Good. No, now we are book selling nicely. I think our settlement.... (?) Kṛṣṇa has arranged everything cautiously and not extravagantly. You go on. Everything will be all right. There will be no scarcity. Yāvad*-artha-prayojanam. Our parents taught us, mother, if there was a grain of rice on the ground and it is touched with feet, "Oh, you take it." We were taught like that. Jayatīrtha: Nothing should be wasted. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has sent you His grain. You cannot waste it. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Live that way. And Kṛṣṇa is providing so much facilities for becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, and why should we deviate and spoil this life, take the risk of again going into the cycle of birth and death? Commonsense affair. We have got the good, greatest opportunity to solve this problem of repetition of birth. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. And only for little sense gratification we are going to sacrifice so great opportunity of life? This much education is wanted. Na sadhu manye yata ātmano 'yam. Eh? Find out the verse, Fifth Canto. Fifth Canto, Fifth Chapter. Na sadhu manye yata atmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya*-prītaya āpṛṇoti [SB 5.5.4]. Very bad civilization. Mad civilization, pramattaḥ. Simply for little sense gratification they are prepared to take so much risk. Next life you may become cat, dog or a small grass or a tree by laws of nature. So nūnaṁ pramattaḥ. Is it Fifth Canto? Bhagavān: Ṛṣabhadeva. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Instruction to His sons. Hari-śauri: What was that? Yasya? Prabhupāda: Eh? Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ. Hari-śauri: Nonam. *Prabhupāda: N*-u-n-a-m. Jayatīrtha: Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Right one? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: *"When a person considers sense gratification the aim of life, he certainly becomes mad after materialistic living and engages in all kinds of sinful activity. He does not know that due to his past misdeeds he has already received a body which, although temporary, is the cause of his misery. Actually the living entity should not have taken on a material body, but he has been awarded the material body for sense gratification. Therefore I think that it is not befitting an intelligent man to involve himself again in the activities of sense gratification, by which he perpetually gets material bodies one after another." Purport? "Begging, borrowing and stealing to live for sense gratification is condemned in this verse because such consciousness leads one to a dark, hellish condition. The four sinful activities are illicit sex, meat*-eating, intoxication and gambling. These are the means by which one gets another material body that is full of miseries." *Prabhupāda: They do not know. When you can say, they'll think, "What these people are talking?" They are so dull*-brained. They cannot understand anything. We are taking it, immediately accepted. It is so serious. And you, on the general public, if you speak? "All nonsense they are speaking." Dull brain. By eating meat and intoxication they have lost their all human brain tissues. Such a condition. Still, some professors receiving and doing some applause. That is. Otherwise who is understanding? The brain is so dull in the modern world. Jayatīrtha: It's called a vicious cycle. Because the brain is so dull, therefore they can't understand how to stop performing these activities; and because they don't stop performing these activities, therefore the brain remains dull. In this way they are caught up. *Prabhupāda: No, pramattaḥ, that we can see, pramattaḥ, mad. And everyone, especially in the Western country, so many madmen. The hippies, their whole sect*-mad. Pramattaḥ. Then so-called businessmen, so-called scientist, so-called philosopher-everyone is mad. And kurute vikarma, all sinful activities, especially the slaughterhouse, horrible. Everyone is taking share of these sinful activities. They're fighting amongst themselves, this party, that party, communist party, fascist party, then barking in the United Nation and so on, so on. All mad. At least we must know it. Or we are talking nonsense; they are all right. What is your conviction? Bhagavān: We are seeing that more and more we are having to preach to younger and younger people. Prabhupāda: Those who are innocent. Bhagavān: Yes. In the colleges even it is very difficult. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: In the colleges now. Before, it was not so difficult. Now they are becoming... Prabhupāda: Spoiled, all spoiled. All spoiled. Bhagavān: Now many devotees are younger, sixteen, seventeen years old, not so spoiled. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharman bhagavatān iha: [SB 7.6.1] "From the very beginning." How they are spoiling the opportunity in the whole educational system, social system, political system. Let us do our duty. What can be done? Is there any purport? Jayatīrtha: Yes, I read part of it. I'll go on. "In the *Vedas* it is said, asaṅgo hy ayaṁ purusaḥ. The living entity is not really connected with this material world, but due to his tendency to enjoy the material senses, he is put into the material condition. One should perfect his life by associating with devotees. He should not become further implicated in the material body." Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that "Stop further implication." Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. What is the next verse? *Jayatīrtha: Parābhavas tāvad abodha*-jāto. *Prabhupāda: Parābhavas tāvad abodha*-jāto. *Jayatīrtha Prabhupāda: Yāvan na jijñāsata ātma*-tattvam... *Jayatīrtha: Yāvat kriyās tāvad idam mano vai karmātmakam yena śarīra*-bandhaḥ Prabhupāda: So long one will remain a karmī, he'll get body. And what body? There is no guarantee. That will depend on your karma. But you'll get a body. So read it. It is very important. Again. Jayatīrtha: "As long as one does not inquire about the spiritual values of life, one is defeated and subjected to miseries arising from ignorance." *Prabhupāda: Everything, whatever he's doing*-the so-called nonsense advancement of civilization is defeat, simply defeat. What is your advancement? You are completely under the control of the laws of material nature. What is your progress? So yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. Only this hodgepodge. They are wasting so much time going to the Mars, spending so much money. But there is no inquiry, ātma-tattvam: "What I am? What is my goal of life?" Bhagavān: They are zero. *Prabhupāda: Such zero. Apaśyatām ātma*-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. Ātma-tattva, there is no... Bhagavān: They are thinking that they have become advanced because they have become atheists. They have let religion go. They say that religion was a... Prabhupāda: But what you have gained out of it, rascal? Now, there is no water. Bring water and become atheist. Why do you see: "When there will be water?" Bring water by scientific method. Why you are looking on the sky: "Whether there is any cloud." Hari-śauri: Set up a drought committee. Prabhupāda: They have done? Bhagavān: In France there was a big drought, terrible drought. Many animals died. So the president of the country made a speech, and all he could say in his speech was that people should try to use less water. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Oh. There was another caricature, India. So there was some drought, the same. So there was some, what is called, representation: "And there is no water. We are suffering. This is the difficulty." "Yes, we are taking step, but next week you'll have television." Advancement, television. Because there was no television, so this is the advancement. Next week they have television. As if television will solve the problem. All mūḍhas, rascals, are very horrible condition. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no other. Jayatīrtha: Tāmala Kṛṣṇa once published an article in the Back to Godhead. The title was "You Cannot Eat Nuts and Bolts." Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: It was very nice. Prabhupāda: That is my word. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: We always take everything from you, and then we take the credit. Prabhupāda: Nuts and bolts, tire tube, gas, this, that.... Where is food? (laughter) "So just kill the animals. That's all. You'll get food." And how long you'll go on? The animals will.... And no more animals die? Then what they'll do? Animal, after all, they live on grains and grass, but one set or two set or three set you can kill and eat. The next...? Then you have to eat dry grass. It is a wrong civilization. Duṣkṛtina. There is no water. They are flying to the Mars planet. What is the Mars planet news? Any news? Jayatīrtha: What is the latest news from the Mars planet, do you know? Bhagavān: Mars planet. No. They are taking samples of the soil. Prabhupāda: That's all. Same story. Bhagavān: In the moon, when they finished, after they concluded there was no life, they dropped a bomb. Jayatīrtha: Dropped a bomb? Bhagavān: Yes, they made an explosion, just to see what would happen. Prabhupāda: You can drop many bombs in the Sahara desert. Who cares? Who cares for that? (laughter) Jayatīrtha: Prabhupāda said they were actually in Arizona. This Mars capsule has landed in Arizona. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why bomb? "Grapes are sour." Bhagavān: To measure something. Prabhupāda: Whatever they measure, they are useless. What they'll gain by dropping a bomb? Jayatīrtha: Just another foolishness. Prabhupāda: But nobody is questioning that "Why you are wasting money in this way? You have already failure, the moon planet." Bhagavān: They are hoping against hope. That is all they have. [break] Prabhupāda: Let us not be discouraged. Let us go on with our studies, activities, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Bhagavān: Seeing their foolishness makes one more convinced; it does not discourage. Prabhupāda: Yes. This failure was assured ten years ago by me. Jayatīrtha: Yes, you predicted it. Prabhupāda: Yes, but still, I am saying, "This will be all failure." And still, they are hopeful. My Guru Maharaja is very pleased. As soon as a book comes out, he is pleased. Jayatīrtha: Especially one so beautiful. Prabhupāda: He was lamenting that "These men, they did not make, publish any number of books. They are simply after this stone and bricks." He condemned. He was very, very sorry. So I thought that I must take a risk. And he's pleased. Bhagavān: So now you have books and temples. Prabhupāda: Yes, temple is automatically. Jayatīrtha: Without fighting, you've got so many temples. Prabhupāda: No, I never stressed on temple. I was engaged in publishing the Back to Godhead. Whatever I could do, I did it because I took it very seriously that he is very sorry that these things were not done. He said that "There will be fire in this Gaudiya Math." Āgun jvālbe, he said. Amari taci loka kichui boi kakrayebo (?): "If I can, I shall sell these marbles of this temple and convert them into books." That was his ambition. He started a very nice press and this Tirtha Maharaja sold it. Jayatīrtha: Sold it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: The press. Prabhupāda: He's not representing Guru.... "Better let's have money for fight in the court." Jayatīrtha: Sometimes I'm sorry that my name also has this word in it. *Prabhupāda: You are Jaya*-tirtha. You are victorious. Now whatever is being done, it is by his blessing. Let us work sincerely. Things will be all.... Otherwise it is humanly impossible. It is by his grace. Jayatīrtha: George was also commenting on that, how one man could have written so many books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: He could not even read them all, what to speak of writing them all. Prabhupāda: *Mūkaṁ karoti vācālam: "A dumb is a great orator." Mūkaṁ karoti vācālaṁ. Paṅguṁ laṅghayate girim: "The lame man, lame man is jumping over the mountain." Mūkaṁ karoti vācālaṁ paṅguṁ laṅghayate girim. Yat*-kṛpa: "By the mercy of guru it is possible." So let us cooperate and do this business. Higher authority will be pleased, and that is our success. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. If the higher authorities are pleased, then Kṛṣṇa is pleased. That is our success. What about that French professor who has written an elaborate review? Hari-śauri: The one that mentions about Aurobindo... Bhagavān: I sent you this summer. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Those two... Hari-śauri: Yes, Prabhupāda's just asking about him. Bhagavān: Oh, yes, he's waiting to see you. Prabhupāda: Invite him to come to India. Jayatīrtha: Jaya. Prabhupāda: He likes me. Bhagavān: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: He has studied very nicely. Otherwise how he could catch Aurobindo, a doctor of...? In a scholarly way he has attacked him. Bhagavān: Do you have that in English? I gave you in English. Hari-śauri: Yes, he got that one. It's in the files. Prabhupāda: Apramana.(?) Actually, what is this? My Guru Maharaja: "He's a bokāloka." My Guru Maharaja used to say all these men, "All rascals." I was at that time coming him(?). But he said, all, "Everyone rascals." He told me, "Rabindranath Tagore and..., bokāloka." Hari-śauri: What's the exact meaning of that word? Prabhupāda: Bokāloka means just like a foolish boy. Bokāloka. Bhagavān: Childish. *Prabhupāda: Childish, with no sense. Actually that is the fact. All these rascals, they have no sense. Simply they bluff because they have no real knowledge. Mayayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ. That's a fact. If one, anyone, does not know Kṛṣṇa, then he's a bokā-loka. Immediately take it for granted, bokāloka. They take that we are very sectarian, but that is a fact. Bhagavān: Our philosophy is that everyone else is wrong. *Prabhupāda: May be true to some extent, but they do not know the ultimate truth. That they do not know. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān [Bg. 7.19]. He understands, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. That requires many, many births, to come to that conclusion. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. This Kṛṣṇa says. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior than Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. He explains to everyone, sarva*-dharman parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. That is the.... There is the ultimate person. You call Him Kṛṣṇa or something, but you must know Him. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ, there must be. Father's father's father's father's father's.... Who is the original father? There must be. Where is the wrong in this statement? So you find out the supreme father, but He has no father; *He is the Absolute. Sarva*-kāraṇa.... Anādir ādiḥ: "He has no beginning, but He is the beginning." Anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. So, Bhagavān may carry one letter that "I am very sorry. On account of my health failure, I could not go to see you, that professor and all devotees, and I am very, very sorry for this, but, I humbly invite you, come to India, and we shall be very glad to sit together," like that. Jayatīrtha: I'm sure they'll all understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: You're planning to leave Wednesday? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Maybe you'll be better tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Tomorrow? Bhagavān: Maybe you will be better. Prabhupāda: No, that is happening. Sometimes I feel all right. Hari-śauri: But then as soon as Prabhupāda does any activity, he immediately becomes exhausted, just to go downstairs. Prabhupāda: Yesterday evening I was thinking, "Now I am feeling all right. Tomorrow I shall go for morning walk," like that. (laughs) That is due to my practice. So the palace is prepared now? Bhagavān: First class. I think your quarters are the best. Very confortable. Your bathroom is all redone. You have a nice separate bedroom, separate bathroom, and a very nice, almost this big. It is very sunny. Prabhupāda: Sunny. Bhagavān: Very sunny. All day long the sun. Prabhupāda: It is alluring. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: Yes, Bhagavān is trying to allure you, I think. *Bhagavān: And we are having Deity installation also. The Kṛṣṇa*-Balarama Deity is there. They're very beautiful, extremely. And we have a new Vyāsāsana. I had it made in Italy with all marble, temple. Anyway... *Jayatīrtha: You can send him pictures in India. I was going to ask you, Srila Prabhupāda. If I wanted to install Gaura-Nitai Deities also, like the ones in Baltimore and this farm, here also, along with the Radha*-Kṛṣṇa Deities, without two altars... Prabhupāda: Here? Jayatīrtha: Yes. Whether or not that's all right. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Jayatīrtha: The devotees very much like to worship Gaura*-Nitai along with Radha-Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān: You are wanting sun? Prabhupāda: Yes, sun. Hari-śauri: No problems. Jayatīrtha: No stairs. Hari-śauri: No stairs. Prabhupāda: No, stairs, I may not come down. Jayatīrtha: That's the problem. Once he's up, he can't come down. Prabhupāda: No. Jayatīrtha: That means he can't go outside. Prabhupāda: I.... Come down is not so very difficult. Bhagavān: We have already a palanquin to carry you up. *Pṛthu*-putra: We have elevator also, no? Bhagavān: Yes, we have elevator there also. Hari-śauri: Is it working? Bhagavān: Well, it's being fixed right now, but if I.... But we have a palanquin to carry up the stairs. It's actually warm there, very warm during the day, and your room is extremely warm because the sun crosses it all day long, and there won't be anybody to bother you. All the devotees are out of the castle. They're all in little houses all around. And it's so big that you won't feel cramped. Prabhupāda: So I shall feel hungry also? Bhagavān: Hungry? No, you ate good there last year. You ate very well there last year. Prabhupāda: No, I like it. It is very nice place. *Pṛthu*-putra: The air is good too. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Pṛthu*-putra: The air, the atmosphere, is good. Bhagavān: I don't know. I was thinking the trip.... We have that big Mercedes limousine. You rode in it last year. It was very comfortable, and the ride, I don't think you found it so difficult, did you? Last year. Prabhupāda: No. Jayatīrtha: This year, by the time he got to Bury Place, he was completely exhausted, Bhagavān. Half an hour's drive. Bhagavān: Hm. Prabhupāda: That due to the staircase. Jayatīrtha: But by the time you sat on the Vyasasana there you were already looking very tired, what to speak of... Bhagavān: Paris has elevator. Prabhupāda: Paris, I know, that I have told. Jayatīrtha: (laughs) He told me that when we got to the top of the stairs in Bury Place. He said, "In Paris there is a lift." Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Jayatīrtha: In all respects Paris is superior. (laughs) Bhagavān: I was just thinking that if you wanted warm weather, it's very warm during the day, and the air is very clean. It's not so dusty. Prabhupāda: No, in the village there must be. Bhagavān: The trouble is if you get sick along the way. Jayatīrtha: On the way back from the airport we had to stop twice. Bhagavān: Anyway, that trip to India is also long, eight hours. It's also long. Hari-śauri: Thing is Prabhupāda is thinking that if he has to go to India anyway, so he may as well go straight there. Bhagavān: The thing is you may be bothered in India. There are so many people who come, even though you say no. Even though you say no, there's always people. Prabhupāda: No, the present problem is that I cannot go out. Bhagavān: So that we have.... We have nice palanquin. Remember when you came two years ago, we had a palanquin and we carried you? *Pṛthu*-putra: In this engagement, in the Philosophical (?) Society. Bhagavān: You spoke at one society, and we carried you up a long stair in a very comfortable palanquin. Prabhupāda: Where? Bhagavān: In Paris. You gave an engagement at the top of a very big building, and there was no lift, so we built a palanquin and we carried you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: So that... Prabhupāda: That library, something? Bhagavān: Yes. Hari-śauri: The other thing is, though, that if you go to Paris, then it means you have to go up the steps to get into the airplane, not just in Paris.... At least in London you have to, and then again you have to do it in Paris, and then again you'll have to do it in Tehran. Bhagavān: Yes, but he doesn't have to.... He can stay there for a while. He doesn't have to go to Tehran. Hari-śauri: No, you can't fly direct to India from Paris. Jayatīrtha: He has to stop somewhere along the way. Otherwise... Bhagavān: We're hoping he'll rapidly recover. Jayatīrtha: Well, Srila Prabhupāda is not expecting it at this point. Of course, we're all praying for it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: I said we're all praying for your rapid recovery, but whether or not... Prabhupāda: So why you did not come yesterday? Bhagavān: I was putting together your Vyasasana. (laughs) All night long I stayed up. Also our printer from Italy, he is wanting to present you with the Kṛṣṇa book. He has had his men working seven days a week, composing. They are composing. It is going to be a very nice book. We had one article in the paper. We went to a book fair, and thousands of publishers.... So the article they wrote on us was that "The association for Kṛṣṇa consciousness produces luxurious books." *Prabhupāda: Why not? Our Kṛṣṇa is most luxurious person. He is never poverty*-stricken. Always with gopīs, cowherd boys, killing all demons. Jayatīrtha: Harikeśa Maharaja and I were discussing last night about your travel plans, and we were debating on what was actually the best place for you to go. So someone was saying Tehran, someone was saying Paris farm, like this, but the point that came out was that as far as health is concerned, India is not the best place for you to go at all. Prabhupāda: India. Jayatīrtha: Not the best place. However, the main point is that you want to go there. That was what was felt by the devotees who were discussing, that you want to go to India immediately and that you will feel more comfortable by going to India immediately. That was what was being discussed. Although for health purposes that may not actually be the best. Hari-śauri: For us India is not very healthy. But for Prabhupāda it's the best place. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: I said for us India is not so healthy, but for yourself it's the best place. Bhagavān: Prabhupāda also got sick in India. Remember? Two years ago in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana. Jayatīrtha: Exactly this time, two years ago. Bhagavān: Anyway, I think the stair problem is not such a big problem. Jayatīrtha: No, that is not an insurmountable problem. Bhagavān: There are three hundred devotees who want to carry you. But I mean there you will not have people coming if you want to rest. There are no.... There are only planned people who would come. But there won't be hundreds of Indians coming to see you. And you have.... Right next to your quarters there's your own private kitchen also, so everything's very close at hand. All your servants quarters are.... That whole floor is.... Actually the whole castle is empty, so there's no noise. Jayatīrtha: It may be very nice for you there. Bhagavān: Your quarters. Prabhupāda: We shall go immediately? Jayatīrtha: I think that, Srila Prabhupāda, you should not feel obliged in any way to go. Only whatever you think is best for your health condition. Prabhupāda: No, obliged, I am always obliged to you. That's a fact. Yes. Jayatīrtha: We are only obliged to you. That's a fact. That is the actual fact. It must be decided, though, what you think is best for your health situation. Prabhupāda: Whatever you decide. Bhagavān: Prabhupāda, the only thing I'm just a little concerned is just if you have difficulty in the car. But if that won't be too difficult, I really think that this is ideal. Your quarters are really first class, extremely wonderful. And the only other thing is at night it's cool, but that's not so bad either. Prabhupāda: No, at night cool will be good. Bhagavān: And in the morning it is warm at ten o'clock. Prabhupāda: So kitchen is (indistinct). Bhagavān: Yes. You have a cook here? Your temple was cooking? Jayatīrtha: No, Arundhatī is cooking. I think Palika should come? Palika should not come for cooking? Prabhupāda: She has come? Jayatīrtha: Should she not come? She wants to come. Bhagavān: There are so many cooks. Malati is there, and we have.... You've never had problem with cooking in France before. Hari-śauri: Harikeśa can cook also. Bhagavān: We all think, though, that whenever you are feeling sick and you go to India, there's always so many people who see you anyway. I remember when you were sick in Vṛndāvana and Brahmananda and I were there. Even though you were sick, at least fifteen people saw you every day, coming in and out constantly, and then you had to sit up. Jayatīrtha: Actually all of us agreed yesterday when we were discussing it that as far as health purposes is concerned, we do not think it is a good idea for you to go to India immediately. Hari-śauri: We argued for a half hour against going to India, but in the end, you decided that you wanted to go to Bombay immediately. *Bhagavān: But I mean, if you have to risk that eight*-hour plane ride, that's much more difficult than going to the farm. The farm is only three hours in a comfortable car. Hari-śauri: It's not just that. It's the problem that you have to fly from France to somewhere else and then from somewhere else back to India. I said the main problem is that if you do go to France, then it means a great deal more traveling than would be involved in simply flying to India, because you'd have to travel back and forth to the Paris farm. Then you would also have to stay in Tehran, up and down like that in the plane, and then again fly to Bombay. Bhagavān: But he doesn't have to stay in the farm for just nine days. He can stay there for long time. Prabhupāda: If the health suits, I can stay there. If the health improves, I can stay. *Pṛthu*-putra: Air India is direct from Geneva. Prabhupāda: I shall not stay... *Pṛthu*-putra: I came back from Bombay to Geneva by direct plane. Prabhupāda: Yes, there is plane. *Pṛthu*-putra: I didn't have to stop in Tehran, and Geneva is very near. Bhagavān: I think you can recover there. The atmosphere is so nice. *Pṛthu*-putra: From the farm Geneva is the same distance than to Paris. Bhagavān: I mean, more or less whenever you get sick everyone thinks that India is not really the best place, because you're always obliged to so many people. Whether you are feeling like it or not, they always come in the room. Jayatīrtha: And they are generally.... I know this, that these.... I like Indian people, but these Indian people are not very conscious of your position. They think that you're just another guru. Many of them do. Of course, some of them appreciate you. Prabhupāda: Indian mentality is that "If we see one saintly person and offer obeisances, we get some blessing for our material..." Hari-śauri: They're very selfish. Jayatīrtha: In this way, I don't think they really appreciate your... Prabhupāda: Āśīrvāda, āśīrvāda. Jayatīrtha: Last night, one man came with his family. They wanted to have your darśana. I said, "Prabhupāda is in bed. He's resting." He was insisting, he said, "I do not want to hear him speak, I simply want to see him." I said, "He's in bed. You can't go into his bedroom. How is it possible?" "No, that is all right. I will just go in, and I will see him." (laughter) I said, "What is this? Get out." Hari-śauri: I remember when we left Bombay, you'd been giving darśana for four and a half hours on the roof. Prabhupāda: What is the water there? Bhagavān: Oh, yes, we have our own water. Prabhupāda: Creek water? Bhagavān: Underground. It's very nice. Very tasty and light. It's not heavy water. Jayatīrtha: It's a fact that on the whole, this farm is a wonderful place. I was there a couple of times. I very much liked it. Prabhupāda: Spring water? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: All right, let us go. Hari-śauri: Tomorrow? Prabhupāda: Any time. Hari-śauri: As soon as we can book a flight. Bhagavān: We can arrange things. Jayatīrtha: Bhagavān, we should.... Couldn't we somehow arrange it so that Prabhupāda doesn't have to go through the heavy traffic to the airport? Hari-śauri: We'll have to see what time they're flying. Jayatīrtha: Every hour. All right, so you're sure that this is... Prabhupāda: No, I want some nice water, digestive. Let us see there. Jayatīrtha: Here the water is not good? Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't say it is not good, but... Bhagavān: This is our own water; it's not city water with so many chemicals in it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: What about that bottle water, mineral water? Bhagavān: He can have that too. Prabhupāda: No, I know. *Pṛthu*-putra: France is the best place for mineral water. Jayatīrtha: In France they have many very nice waters. Prabhupāda: Mineral water. Bhagavān: Prabhupāda knows. He used to sell Vichy water. Prabhupāda: Vichy water. But I don't like. Bottled water I don't like. Bhagavān: No, we have fresh water all the time. And you have hot water in bathroom. Jayatīrtha: I knew Bhagavān would come, and this would happen. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: I never thought that you would go to India. I knew that Bhagavān would come and you would go to Paris. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, if I improve my health, I shall stay there for some time. Jayatīrtha: Actually, it's a fact that you... Prabhupāda: Everywhere is my home. Not that India.... If I am attached to India, then how I am sannyāsī? (laughter) Bhagavān: And every other day I will give you a new book. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Where is? Hari-śauri: You have to keep it, too, when you promise. Prabhupāda: All right. Bhagavān: So we can plan that. Thank you very much, Srila Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: All glories to Srila Prabhupāda. [break] Prabhupāda: Western people, they are not only fool but misbehaved. Paścime loka saba mūḍha anārya. Hari-śauri: And the further West you go, the worse they become. *Prabhupāda: In India, from Bengal you go Western side. They are very filthy. And go more, more, more Western*-filthy, filthy, filthy, filthy. Harikeśa: Pakistan is the worst. Karachi, I heard, is the worst city in the world almost. *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-bhāgavatam amalam purāṇam. Harikeśa: These books are exquisite. The books they make in France are just marvelous. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: It was printed in Italy, I think, but this here is so nice. Prabhupāda: Yes, embossed. I think our other books are not like that. Harikeśa: Of course, in France this is very much appreciated because the people are like that. Prabhupāda: Fancy. Harikeśa: Yes. Hari-śauri: There's big competition now between our French and Spanish and English, between our publishing, French, Spanish and English. They are always competing. And the Germans also. Harikeśa: I think the French are on top though. *Hari-śauri: Their French Bhagavad*-gītā, the French one, when it came out, it's so much better than any other version we've had. Every time they bring a new book out, it seems to be an advancement on everything else. Harikeśa: Yogeśvara is very... Prabhupāda: Oh, he is very expert, very enthusiastic. His wife is... Harikeśa: Very nice. *Hari-śauri: They included a number of photos also. In the picture sections they've headed each section with a photo. There's one of Vṛndāvana temple. They have a photo of your room in Rādhā*-Dāmodara. Prabhupāda: Oh! Where it is? Hari-śauri: In one of the sections here. Harikeśa: I have to go in and do some more.... [break] Prabhupāda: Right in here. Hari-śauri: Through that window you could see Rūpa Gosvāmī's samadhi. And for those two rooms they were charging five rupees a month? Prabhupāda: Yes. These rooms were broken. So they told me that "You can repair these, and whatever you like, you can give." So I thought, "Don't need much space." "Pay me if..." I know, before me there was a tenant in that other room. He was paying three rupees. So I thought, "Two rooms, but I have spent money. So I'll give him five." Now I am giving them ten rupees. Hari-śauri: To retain it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Sometimes the devotees go down there and clean out the rooms, and they have kīrtana there sometimes. I think this is the first book that someone included this photo. Prabhupāda: Yes. It was very calm and quiet. And people used to offer obeisances from outside because they knew. Practically everyone knew me. So they used to offer... Hari-śauri: You were very well known in Vṛndāvana before you came? Prabhupāda: Not very well known, but people knew me. Hari-śauri: Because you were writing or...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Or because of your ambition to come to the West? Prabhupāda: No, at that time there was no such thing. I was living there, retired man. Hari-śauri: So when you went to Vṛndāvana, you'd given up the idea of coming to the West or...? Prabhupāda: No, coming to the West, the idea was there, but I was planning how to go. Hari-śauri: Oh, nothing concrete was there. Prabhupāda: So that idea was there, but how to go there, how to preach there, how to take some books, how to bring them, everything alone... Hari-śauri: So as soon as you had some books, then you were... Prabhupāda: Yes. Then I decided. Everything was being dictated by superior. Hari-śauri: I was told that one day you were told by Rūpa Gosvāmī that you must go. Prabhupāda: But that was open secret. Everyone knew. This antique photo is very dull. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where this photo was? Hari-śauri: I don't know. (end) *Conversation with George Harrison-*-July 26, 1976, London (Prabhupāda is very hoarse) George Harrison: How do you feel? *Prabhupāda: I have old man's disease, cough and cold, so coughing. But still, work is going on, and I shall complete eighty years this month. September, eighty*-one. So now, due to age, it is becoming little difficult. George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Anyway, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa.... So how are you? George Harrison: Quite good. Prabhupāda: Chanting is going on? George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Thank you. That is our life and soul. Gṛhe vā vanete thāke, 'hā gaurāṅga' bole ḍāke. Wherever you live, it doesn't matter, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is our only support. So bring food here. Jayatīrtha: We should have the lunch here? Prabhupāda: Yes. George Harrison: All the devotees are looking really good. Prabhupāda: Eh? George Harrison: The devotees are looking great. Strong. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Phalena paricīyate. By the result, one has to study. Yesterday, one devotee's father and mother came, Hari-śauri. She and his father were very pleased to see him healthy, bright. Mukunda: They hadn't seen him for six years. Prabhupāda: Six years, yes. So we are inviting everyone, "Come here. Such a nice house given by George (laughs). You live here comfortably, eat nicely, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." We don't want any factory work. George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Simply kartal and mṛdaṅga. Still, people do not come. They'll prefer to go the factory, whole day work in the hell. (laughs) They prefer. George Harrison: I suppose some day the whole of the world will just be chanting in the country. Prabhupāda: That is not possible, but if some of the leading men, they take it seriously, then others will follow. Just like in our book, your signature is there, "Oh, George Harrison. Yes." They take it without any consideration. Kṛṣṇa book. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. If the leading man does something, then his followers also do. This is the way. So if some of the leading men of the world, they take this movement seriously, then people will be happy. There's no doubt about it. You have come alone, without any associate? George Harrison: Just on my own. Prabhupāda: That's all right. George Harrison: It took me a while to find it. They're always building new roads everywhere and change the whole countryside. So I got a little lost. Prabhupāda: You came here twice, right? George Harrison: Yes, I've been here three times. Where will you be in India when you go back to India? Prabhupāda: Most probably in Bombay. You have been in my Bombay? George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay. Yes, Bombay and Vṛndāvana when they were just building. Prabhupāda: Oh, Vṛndāvana, if you come there, stay for some time. George Harrison: Yes, well, ah, this December... Prabhupāda: We have got very nice houses, both in Bombay and Vṛndāvana. And Māyāpur also. Wherever you like. You will not be very uncomfortable. George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay for a wedding. Some friends are getting married. Prabhupāda: When? George Harrison: December the fifth, I think. Prabhupāda: Very nice season in Bombay. Best time. George Harrison: You know, I think you met Laksmi Shankar, lady singer? Her daughter, who is also a singer, Viji, Viji Śrī Shankar, and she's marrying a South Indian violin player, L. Shankar. Prabhupāda: He's also Shankar? George Harrison: Well, he's called L. Shankar. You know that South India they have a funny way around them, they have like a surname. He's just called L. Shankar. His brother is called L. Subhramanyam. Devotee (1): George says he wants to spend some time in Vṛndāvana. *George Harrison: I was only there for about thirty*-six hours last time. Prabhupāda: We have got now very good centers. Another gentleman, he's offering us a very good place at Mahābaleśvara. That's one of the famous India stations. A very nice climate. So you can come and stay there. We have got now many good centers. George Harrison: I'll come and see if you're in Bombay, because I'll be near where the temple is. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bombay is just like garden. As good as your place here. No. Not so big. It is seventeen acres, and Bombay is five. Just go on. (prasādam being served) Give him whatever you have got to give. But don't give much. When he wants something more.... Waste not, want not. Give more, that preparation, you should give more. (laughter) That is called (indistinct). You can bring it, prasāda. George Harrison: I'll just wash my hands. Prabhupāda: You can wash here. The sink is there. Here is also water. You can put the bowls outside, here, so that there will be sufficient place. Our Indian system is like this. That's all right. Sit down, you also sit down. George Harrison: I see you've done new books. You've been so busy, there's so many books. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are already fifty*-four, and another at least thirty books I have to finish before my death. (laughs) That I am.... Give him a puri. Where is Ravi Shankar? George Harrison: He's in.... I think he's in New York. He'll be here the first of August, and then I think he's... Prabhupāda: He has got his house there? In New York? George Harrison: No, just a house in Benares. Benares. He doesn't have anything. He just stays in hotels. Prabhupāda: I thought in Washington somebody told me that George Washing..., George Harrison has got his house here. George Harrison: Yes, he had a little house here, but he... Prabhupāda: No, you have got your house in Washington? George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: No. Now we can begin. George Harrison: Okay, Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Gurudāsa: Nimbu*-pāni? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. You give him two more samosas, he likes it. So now you can begin also. Yes. All the boys and girls are so nicely qualified for Kṛṣṇa's service. George Harrison: They are looking better and better all the time. It's nice for me to see Gurudāsa. He's turning into a mountain. (laughter) Prabhupāda: His wife has also sannyāsī, renounced. Have you seen her latest? George Harrison: No. *Prabhupāda: She has cut hair and white dress, living alone in the temple. Vairagya*-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. This bhakti-yoga means vairagya-vidyā, means detachment. That is the perfection of life. If we remain attached, that is conditional. Māyā has made so many things attractive so that we have to remain attached, and to come out of this attachment is called bhakti. So one man, you can sit down, you can eat. Pradyumna, you can eat. Pradyumna: I've taken some milk before. Prabhupāda: Oh, you don't require. Now you can eat, go on. Prasāda prapti mātrena. Our Jayatīrtha prabhu is a good manager. Management, looking after. Yes, he's a very good manager, experienced. George Harrison: Hm? Prabhupāda: He's experienced manager. Jayatīrtha: Not very good managing this place now. George Harrison: Well, it seems okay. Seems to be taken over pretty good. Peacefully. Prabhupāda: He was also managing Los Angeles. Now we have brought him here to see things nicely managed. George Harrison: It feels good, nice vibrations. Prabhupāda: Yes. One thing, Jayatīrtha, why don't you sprinkle this water in this ground? Jayatīrtha: Well, we do sprinkle it. Prabhupāda: Just have an ordinary pumping, then it will be green. Jayatīrtha: There's a kind of a limit on the amount of water pressure you can get these days. Prabhupāda: Limit? George Harrison: There's been a drought in England, there's no, very little water. Prabhupāda: This is very dangerous. Everything is now yellow. Jayatīrtha: It's greener here than most places around, but... George Harrison: Everything's so dry this year, lots of trees and things dying without water. *Prabhupāda: That is the punishment for this age. It is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. There will be scarcity of rain and there will be scarcity of food and heavy taxation by government. And people will become mad on account of these three things. Anāvṛṣṭi, durbhikṣa, karopī.(?) George Harrison: It's getting dryer in England each year. It's probably going to end up as a desert in another hundred years. Prabhupāda: They expect like that? George Harrison: Well, I don't know. I think the whole world's changing. Somebody said it's the pollution, leaves so much..., there's so much of the oceans now with polluted and with oil on the top, there's not so much evaporation anymore. Prabhupāda: Not in the ocean. It is the sinful activities of the populace. That is real problem. They are all engaged in sinful activities. Especially this innocent animal killing. These are the all reaction. Gurudāsa: In New York they had one island of refuse floated in to shore. For years they were building up island of refuse, and it floated in, and now no one can go to the beaches. Prabhupāda: Samosa. Where is samosa? There is only one left? George Harrison: I'm okay, actually. Devotee (2): There is sour cream. George Harrison: I've got plenty, thanks. Prabhupāda: Prasada, we can eat up to the neck. (laughter) There is no harm. You'll never get indigestion. You have got some fruits? George Harrison: Yes. Mukunda: There's a very nice mango preparation there, did you taste? George Harrison: Which one? Mukunda: Mango. George Harrison: Oh, this one. Prabhupāda: One German girl has prepared. We are introducing restaurants like this, and people are liking very much. We have got one restaurant in Hawaii, another restaurant we are organizing in Boston. That is being directly done by Alfred. You have met Alfred? Gurudāsa: Alfred Ford, the grandson of Henry Ford. George Harrison: No, I've never met him. *Prabhupāda: Oh. He is also a very nice boy. Of course, younger than you. He's only twenty*-four years. What is your age now? *George Harrison: Thirty*-three. *Prabhupāda: Thirty*-three. That boy is also very nice young boy. Give Jayatīrtha? No? George Harrison: Do you feed everybody who comes Sunday? Prabhupāda: Sunday we have about five hundred to one thousand. George Harrison: : So they must cook for days to feed all those people. Gurudāsa: No, day before, night before. George Harrison: Do they bring food as well? Gurudāsa: They bring grains or something like that. *Prabhupāda: We had a very gorgeous Ratha*-yātrā ceremony in New York last Sunday. George Harrison: Hm? Prabhupāda: Sunday, eighteenth. Pusta Kṛṣṇa: A week ago yesterday. Prabhupāda: Give... Gurudāsa: We fed about ten thousand that day. Prabhupāda: Cauliflower. Take little. George Harrison: I can't finish. (laughter) I'm trying to finish one so I can start on the next. I was sick also lately. I had something, I went yellow. I had jaundice. Don't know why, just had food poisoning or something, and it affected my liver. Prabhupāda: Who cooks for you? George Harrison: Sometimes me, sometimes, ah.... I don't know, I think we'd had some Chinese food. Prabhupāda: Oh, you should not take. George Harrison: Because I was working as well, so I, you know I think I was pretty tired. Prabhupāda: Better you cook simple food yourself and take it. George Harrison: The only thing I could eat was papaya. Prabhupāda: Papaya is very good, yes. George Harrison: I still have... Prabhupāda: Give him, give him, give him. No, that is the different. Oh, all right. We are just attempting a big planetarium in Māyāpur. We have asked government to acquire land, 350 acres. That is negotiation going on. We shall give a Vedic planetarium. George Harrison: Is that the one you were talking about? With all the... Prabhupāda: In the Fifth Canto. Gurudāsa: The planetarium will be 350 feet high and show the cosmology of the spiritual world. Prabhupāda: The construction will be like your Washington capital, like that. George Harrison: A big dome. Prabhupāda: Yes. Estimated eight crores of rupees. Is there any dahi preparation? Oh, that's all right. Now, there is fruit. You... George Harrison: Very good. Fantastic. Maybe just a little bit of, but now I'm not.... Thanks. That's fine. No, okay, thanks, fine, that's enough, that's fine. Prabhupāda: That watermelon, you can give. It is water. George Harrison: Now let me finish all this. Prabhupāda: This is that mango preparation. George Harrison: Okay. Devotee (2): It's coming. Prabhupāda: You like that preparation? Yes. George Harrison: We used to have this with milk at Hrsikesa. Every day they'd leave outside of the door. It's good. Do you, Mukunda, break even with all the costs, running cost? Do you do okay with all this food, fruit and stuff? Mukunda: Oh, yes. More than even. We have about thirteen hundred life members in the Indian community. And then when they come on the weekends they bring food, they bring these hundred pound donations, money in the box. George Harrison: At one time you just had the Godhead and incense. Mukunda: Yes, now it's all public support. Jayatīrtha: We don't sell incense anymore. Mukunda: And the books we just sell for very little; we hardly make any money on them at all. Prabhupāda: Are you reading sometimes my books? Which one? George Harrison: Mainly Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is the main book. (laughs) George Harrison: Mukunda gave me the new books, but there's so much in, ah, there's just so much to read. Prabhupāda: Philosophy. George Harrison: I don't know how anybody could have written it, it's difficult enough to read all that amount. Prabhupāda: Sometimes they are surprised how one man can write so many books, but it is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise not possible. Human being, it is not possible. *Mukunda: That one series of books I brought you, the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hari-śauri? There is no sweet melon. Mukunda: And every single word is written by hand, five hundred years ago. Prabhupāda: You are in the same house? George Harrison: Hm? Henley. Prabhupāda: Henley, yes. Very nice house. George Harrison: Hm, very nice. I work from the house. I have a studio, recording studio in the house. So I don't have to go to London anymore. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have all arrangement there. That's very nice. How many acres? *George Harrison: It's about thirty*-five. Prabhupāda: Oh, very good area. Devotee (2): Do you get (indistinct). Mukunda: Yes, only five hundred pounds. Devotee (2): Really? Amazing. George Harrison: Five hundred pounds! Mukunda: Yes, for four acres. George Harrison: That's quite cheap. Mukunda: Yes, we were really surprised. But if it hadn't been for that, we'd have had no cow pasture. Cows are out there. Prabhupāda: We have got one cow, many cows in Philadelphia. The milk bags, she gives hundred and two pounds daily. George Harrison: Of milk? Who owns this? Who milks the cows? Gurudāsa: Some of the devotees. Prabhupāda: We have got tanks for storing milk, tanks. George Harrison: Yes? *Prabhupāda: Yes. All up*-to-date refrigerator and everything. That extra milk they are selling. Similarly, in New Vrindaban we are getting one thousand pounds milk daily. One thousand pounds. Mukunda: That's our place in West Virginia. George Harrison: How many cows? Must be hundred of them. Prabhupāda: But the Philadelphia is more organized. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Through the nozzles, milk carrying, always hot water is washing it. Jayatīrtha: There's much better facility in that Pennsylvania place. New Vrindaban's kind of.... They built it up from scratch by themselves. Gurudāsa: Rustic. Jayatīrtha: Yes, rustic is the word. (laughter) Pennsylvania they bought this fabulous farm all made up. Prabhupāda: Pradyumna, give him little, this one here. George Harrison: Oh, no, no. Please, no more. I'm really full. I won't have to eat for a few days. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Sweets. George Harrison: Very well. *Prabhupāda: Sweet will help you digest. Don't give three*-at least four. George Harrison: I won't be able to eat much more. Prabhupāda: Three is given to the enemy. According to our Indian system, if you give somebody three, that means he is enemy. George Harrison: Oh, really? I always liked the number three. Prabhupāda: (laughs) You must give at least four. George Harrison: I like three, five, seven, nine. Those numbers. Prabhupāda: Bring some fruit. What are the three enemies? Kama, krodha... Pradyumna: Lobha. Gurudāsa: Lust, anger, greed. *Prabhupāda: Three enemies*-lusty desire, anger and greediness. George Harrison: Yes. But there's a lot of nice threes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Brahma, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. Three worlds, śaṅkha, martya, padma. Trinity. These are nice things. *George Harrison: Tri*-guṇa. *Prabhupāda: Tri*-guṇa, yes. Jayatīrtha: The three modes, they're not so nice. George Harrison: Well, they're all necessary. Jayatīrtha: Yes. George Harrison: I met, I think, one of your master's other devotees, I forget his name. Gosvāmī, big, in Vṛndāvana, big, tall, with a staff, bald hair. Said you knew his name? Gurudāsa: Puruṣottama? George Harrison: Puruṣottama? Yes. Mukunda: In Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: He's not a sannyāsī. George Harrison: Pardon? Prabhupāda: He's not sannyāsī. George Harrison: Oh, well, the one I met had a staff. Maybe it was a different one. Gurudāsa: Mādhava Mahārāja maybe. Prabhupāda: Maybe Mādhava. Jayatīrtha: He's big. Prabhupāda: He's my Godbrother. George Harrison: Yes, but he didn't speak English. But all the people I was with said he spoke very good Sanskrit, had a good understanding of Sanskrit. But I couldn't understand anything that he, you know.... I just watched him. Pradyumna: I think Puruṣottama Gosāi. Prabhupāda: He's talking of Puruṣottama. Pradyumna: Gosāi. Prabhupāda: He's blackish? George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: Not fair complexion. Puruṣottama. George Harrison: I think he was fair, but he was very tall, very big, and you know, like this, huge size. You know that place where I stayed the night? Pradyumna: That's his place, Puruṣottama Gosāi. Gurudāsa: He's not a sannyāsī. Prabhupāda: He's not sannyāsī, he is householder. Jayatīrtha: He's married man. George Harrison: Yes, he had.... His son lived there. Jayatīrtha: Yes. George Harrison: But maybe he's taken, I don't know, I thought he had a daṇḍa, one of those staffs. I saw the little temple in the garden, Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, where they stay in bed. It's like a bed like this. You know the one? Pradyumna: Nidhuvana Mandir. Prabhupāda: Nidhuvana. George Harrison: I saw that, where He's been out all night so He doesn't get up until ten o'clock in the morning. Prabhupāda: You have not seen our temple since it is inaugurated? No. George Harrison: No. Prabhupāda: This time you come. Many thousands people come to see daily. George Harrison: I saw the photograph, looks really nice. It's big. Gurudāsa: Now they say it's the most beautiful modern temple in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: You have seen our.... There is any film of the temple? Gurudāsa: No, but there's photographs. Jayatīrtha: We have a nice photograph at the reception room downstairs. George Harrison: Actually it was half built. Gurudāsa: Yes. Even the building you went into, there's more, the roof. Prabhupāda: That courtyard is very beautiful. There is a tāmala tree. That is a very valuable tree. The Bisanchand Seth asked me to cut. Gurudāsa: Yes, I remember. Prabhupāda: What a nonsense, such a.... He has no idea. Now, on account of that tree, it looks so beautiful. Hari-śauri: It is, it's very wonderful. The whole tree has flourished since the temple began. Gurudāsa: We planned the whole temple around that tree. The whole plans. George Harrison: It's a big old tree? Pradyumna: Tree's just in the courtyard of the temple, so we left it there. Gurudāsa: Same color as Kṛṣṇa, śyāma. Like a fresh rain cloud color. So when Rādhārāṇī sees the tree, She thinks of Kṛṣṇa. So when we see the tree we think of Kṛṣṇa. And Śrīla Prabhupāda sits underneath the tree and watches. Prabhupāda: Rādhārāṇī in separation was embracing that tree, tāmala tree. And they say that in Vṛndāvana, only there are four tāmala trees left. Gurudāsa: Yes, they've said four or six. Very few. George Harrison: Is this tree still living? Devotees: Yes, it's alive. George Harrison: My compliments to the chef. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is this water? Hari-śauri: Lemonade. Prabhupāda: Is there any more? Hari-śauri: I just took it out. I can get some. Prabhupāda: Bring little. So I am very much pleased that you take so much trouble to come here. George Harrison: It's my pleasure. Prabhupāda: Yes, give a little for drinking. You want little more? George Harrison: Are you ever going to stop traveling? Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. I don't want, personally, but if Kṛṣṇa wants, that is everything. We have got more hundred and two centers, different parts of the world. George Harrison: Still six more to go. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) We have got a very nice house in Detroit. If you sometimes go there... George Harrison: Whereabouts? Prabhupāda: Detroit. George Harrison: Ah, Detroit. They need one there. Crazy place. Jayatīrtha: Heavy place. Prabhupāda: That house was constructed fifty years ago at the cost of six million dollars, and we have got it very cheap. Three hundred thousand dollars. George Harrison: Was it a big house? Hari-śauri: A very big mansion on the riverside. George Harrison: Colonial house? *Prabhupāda: Not as big*-four acres of land-but the building is very costly. One room will cost now three hundred thousand dollars. So nicely made. Hari-śauri: They estimated it would cost about fifteen million to build such a house now. George Harrison: Yes, they probably wouldn't even bother or be able to, at least. Is it an old house? Hari-śauri: Fifty years old. It's very solid, though, very good condition as well. Prabhupāda: And on the house on bottom, there is river. Not directly, but an offshoot of river. People come, rowing. A very nice situation, and because it is black quarter, nobody was purchasing. So I said that "For us, what is black or white? Purchase it." So we got very cheap. At that time I paid them hundred and fifty thousand, and (indistinct). So we purchased. George Harrison: Did they find a temple in Hamburg? In Hamburg. I was there once, but they just had a little tiny house, and they were trying to get another. Prabhupāda: Hamburg, I think closed? Jayatīrtha: They have a place in Frankfurt, where the devotees are.... Just outside Frankfurt. George Harrison: So they haven't got a place in Hamburg. Jayatīrtha: No, it's a heavy city. George Harrison: I was there one year when they were having fights. It's... Jayatīrtha: Rockers. It's a heavy place. Mukunda: Rockers. George Harrison: It is full of gangs. Prabhupāda: And we have got another palace, what is that village? Jayatīrtha: South of Paris? That one? Prabhupāda: No, France. Jayatīrtha: Yes, south of Paris. It's near a place called Valancey. Very nice place. Pradyumna: French chateau. Mukunda: It's on about 250 acres. George Harrison: Really? Mukunda: Huge fields, beautiful place. Show you a picture of it. George Harrison: Yes. So that's one of the goals now, one hundred and eight temples. Jayatīrtha: Should be able to do it this year, I think. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: Should have a hundred and eight this year, I think. Hari-śauri: Centers. One hundred and eight centers. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: Temples and farms. Prabhupāda: We want worker. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is giving us so many centers. In India I can get so many places, but how to manage? Simply taking from persons, and if I cannot manage nicely, that does not look well. Therefore I say first of all get men, then take donation. There is no harm. How many devotees were living here? Jayatīrtha: There's about a hundred, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, then it is all right. And if there was no devotees, ten devotees, then how could we manage? Jayatīrtha: We have about fifteen devotees that work full time on the grounds. Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty sprinkling water that quarter? It is costly? Jayatīrtha: We'll try to sprinkle more, but there's a lack of water pressure. Prabhupāda: No, pressure, by pump. George Harrison: That's what we have, we had a little Honda pump, but you had to start it off. It's a gasoline engine, I think. And put one pipe into the lake and just pump out of the lake, and then you have a sprinkler on the other side. Makes a noise, though, that's the only thing. Makes a noise and gives off an exhaust. Prabhupāda: A pump for, say, one hour, two hour. George Harrison: You could use the water out of the lake, then nobody could really complain about that. Jayatīrtha: That's how we'd have to do it, I think. George Harrison: That probably wouldn't be enough, it wouldn't take the level down. How do you fill that up? Mukunda: That's a natural watershed. This is the lowest place in the area in about four miles every direction. So we have all those underground water tables feeding it. Prabhupāda: If there is rain then there is no scarcity of water. The water comes here. Yes. George Harrison: But how, when you drain it, then how did you stop it from filling up? *Mukunda: Well, it did fill up in the winter quite a bit, but then in the summer it went back down. It's filled up now*-we had to use city water to get it started. But as soon as it rains it goes up about this far. Jayatīrtha: It's evaporated about six inches since Mukunda: You don't have a well in your place? George Harrison: No, just, well, that (indistinct) pond. Originally the lakes all were filled just like this as well as flooding the drains, and when it rained off the house everything would go, and we have a big storage tank, and then there's ball cocks, and underneath that big bank of rhododendrons was like a room built there, which was a storage tank. Then any other water he must have used just from the mains. But these days, you know, they have meters on the mains, so you have to pay for every gallon. Mukunda: What about getting those water diviners to come and find water? George Harrison: Well, you can find it I think anywhere if you just bore a hole. So what we did was just bore at the end of the lake. But you have to go down to the depth of the riverbed, and there there's not much water because the rain, it's all chalk and limestone, so the rains.... That's the problem with watering in the summer, if you put water... Prabhupāda: From your house the river is near? George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Thames? George Harrison: Yes. But then the Thames is here, and we're up on the hill, so we bored a hole right down to the three hundred feet, I think, three hundred and fifty feet, to the level of the river, and then a pump, we can pump that. But when it does rain or if you do water the ground, it's so chalky that it runs right through it. So it's hard to keep a lot of moisture in the water. But also at the same time all the rain water runs through, then it hits the rock level of the riverbed, there must be tons of water down there. We can pump out of there all day long for months on end, and nothing seems to dry up. Jayatīrtha: Fantastic. Mukunda: You could even do it by hand if you were out of electricity. George Harrison: The hole is..., the bore is actually only about this wide. You can have a little bucket. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: You have to apply for permission, actually, to dig a well, but around here at least you have to get permission. George Harrison: We did too. You have to put your name on the list, public notice in the local papers, and if somebody wants to complain about it, then they have a chance to. And once it's been up there for a few days or a week or something, and if nobody's made any formal complaint for any reason, like maybe they've got one and want to bore a hole, and you may be (indistinct) there, so then you just go ahead. Then it's all approved, and then your names goes on the list someplace in the county surveyor's office. So you do have to go through a, you know, a couple of months of waiting. Just to, say, bore a hole to replenish, and you have to just pay for the cost to bore a hole and the pump. To lay out electricity to where the pump is. The pump is, you know, just in the ground, you can't even see it. You know, by that weeping willow tree? Prabhupāda: So if you want to take little rest, we can arrange for that. Resting. George Harrison: Rest? Prabhupāda: Yes, for you. George Harrison: No, no. Jayatīrtha: I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you want to rest. George Harrison: You take a rest. *Prabhupāda: I am taking rest now these twenty*-four hours. I have no other business than to take rest. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: Always resting at the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is real rest. *The Mukunda-māla-stotra... There was a big emperor, Samrat(?), Kulaśekhara, emperor Kulaśekhara, he was a great devotee. So he wrote some poetry. Formerly, kings were so advanced, rajarṣi. They are king, at the same time, saintly persons. In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is said imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]*-this science of Bhagavad-gītā was learned by the rājarṣis. People were happy therefore. The head, or the executive, they were all saintly persons. So this Kulasekhara, he writes in the beginning of his poetry, "Kṛṣṇa, O Kṛṣṇa..." Kṛṣṇa tvādīya-pada-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam. The paṅkaja means lotus flower. So Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet is just like lotus flower. The lotus flower has stem down, and the swans, they take pleasure to go down the water and entangled by the stem. Have you seen their pleasure? Yes. That is their great sporting, to be entangled by the stem and come out, in this way, go deep, this is their sporting. So this Kulasekhara is praying, "My Lord Kṛṣṇa, let my swan of mind be entangled with the stem of Your lotus feet." Kṛṣṇa tvādīya-pada-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam adyaiva: "Immediately"-viśatu-"let enter." Who? Adyaiva viśatu me, "My," mānasa-rāja-haṁsaḥ, "my mind, which is just like a swan." So why adyaiva, immediately? He says that prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye, "At the time of death," prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye kapha-vāta-pittaiḥ, "when the physical condition of the body will be in disorder," kapha, pitta, vayu will not be in order.... Prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye kapha-vāta-pittaiḥ kaṇṭhāvarodha, "At that time I shall not be able to speak. I'll 'ahn, ahn,' but that's all. So I may not be able to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Better I am now in good health, so let my mind be entangled in the stem of Your lotus feet." Very nice poetry. *"At that time I may be not able to utter 'Kṛṣṇa' or think of You, and now I am healthy, let me finish this business." That means "Let me die immediately. Now I'm healthy, I'm quite fit." This is the ideal. Ante nārāyaṇa*-smṛtiḥ [SB 2.1.6]. At the time of death, if one remembers Kṛṣṇa, then his life is successful. Immediately he goes to Kṛṣṇa. Just like Ajamila. He chanted "Narayana," and immediately his path to Vaikuntha become clear. So this practice means, whatever we practice all through life, there is chance of coming that remembrance at the time of death, and then it is successful, life is success. If at the time of death one can remember Kṛṣṇa, then his whole life is successful. Our one student, Kārttikeya, his mother was very fortunate. So his mother had nothing to do with this Society, but the boy was attached, and she heard several times "Kṛṣṇa," that this boy is attached to Kṛṣṇa. At the time of her death, she asked her son, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" and died. Just see how fortunate she is. She simply uttered this word, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" then she died. Very fortunate. So on account of her son she got salvation. Otherwise, Kārttikeya told me that he went to see his mother, and the mother was going to ball dance, and the mother did not receive him well. "All right, you sit down. I'll come again." She was such lady. But by Kṛṣṇa's grace, at the time of death, she inquired her son, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" Very fortunate. George Harrison: When my mother died I had to send my sister and father out of the room, because they were getting emotional, and I just chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: She chanted. George Harrison: I did. Prabhupāda: Oh, very nice, so she could hear? George Harrison: I don't know, I don't know, she was in like a coma or something. It was the only thing I could think of. Prabhupāda: When it happened? George Harrison: In 1970. It was the only thing I could think of that may be of value, you know. Prabhupāda: Anyway, if she has heard Hare Kṛṣṇa, she'll get the benefit. Either she chants or somebody chanting, if she hears, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam, both the same thing. Little chance. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. So let us practice in such a way that at the time of death we may remember. That is success. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. So you are reading Kṛṣṇa repeatedly? Kṛṣṇa book you are reading repeatedly? George Harrison: Well, you know, I read it every so often. I always take the *Gītā* with me wherever I go. I mean that's the one I just keep all the time. But you know, I'll just sometimes read a little of something, a little bit of something else. I've never been a great reader. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, you have got chance here to think soberly. But on account of your chanting "Kṛṣṇa" so many people are chanting. George Harrison: I don't think it's on my account. Prabhupāda: No, they say "George chants Hare Kṛṣṇa." They say. Do they not? Mukunda: Yes. Prabhupāda: And you have got many thousands followers. George Harrison: It's nice, but I think we all... *Prabhupāda: Anyway, you go on chanting. That will influence. There is a poetry written by, I think in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Rupa Gosvāmī is wondering, "I do not know what sweetness there is in these two words, Kṛṣ-ṇa." Gurudāsa: The verse starts with priya, "dear." *Prabhupāda: Varna*-dvayī. You remember this verse? No jane, "What kind of nectar it is there in these two words, Kṛṣ-ṇa?" You have seen Deity today? No, it was closed. George Harrison: It was closed. Jayatīrtha: It's open again now. Prabhupāda: When it is open? Jayatīrtha: It's open now, the ārati is going on. Prabhupāda: Oh. Sometimes you can come and stay here, see the ārati, at least one day, whole program, how they are doing. What is the program whole day? *Jayatīrtha: It starts at four*-fifteen, the ārati, then we worship Tulasī-devī, chant japa and have class, and then prasādam eight-fifteen. Then during the day we all work, and in the evening again, seven o'clock, everyone comes together for the ārati, class. George Harrison: How is that school in Texas, you know, with all the children? Gurudāsa: Gurukula. Jayatīrtha: They have six schools now, other than that. This place in France, they have a school there, this farm, and in Dallas, Los Angeles, Pennsylvania, Māyāpur. Hari-śauri: Vṛndāvana Gurukula also was started. George Harrison: There's all kinds of strange things written in those newspapers, Dallas, strange things. Particularly about the little children's school. Hari-śauri: It's because they don't bother to find out before they write things. Gurudāsa: Just like they said that the children sleep in the basement. That's because it was in the hot summer. Everyone goes to the basement in the summer in Dallas. Mukunda: The kids don't feel any difficulty at all sleeping on the floor. Children are naturally austere. It's just after you get to a certain age that conditioning affects you. Devotee: They say they live without furniture. (laughter) Gurudāsa: They're prejudiced about those things. Jayatīrtha: They have to eat with their hands. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You have got the last copy of Seventh Canto? Hari-śauri: Seven, Three? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mukunda: There's some books that came out since I brought those last books. George Harrison: There's also somebody, I think it was a guy who was trying to get his wife back or something. (laughs) I know it was in California, and he was saying "They've stolen my wife." These stories kill me, I mean it's so funny because the way... Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, brahmacārī gurukule. Hari-śauri: I think that's in Seven, Two. Harikeśa: Sixteenth Chapter, first verse, I think. It's the first verse, brahmacārī gurukule. Jayatīrtha: One man came to the temple, he heard that his daughter had participated in one of our fire sacrifices, and he was afraid that... George Harrison: Fire sacrifices? Jayatīrtha: When we have initiations we have a fire sacrifice. He was afraid that she had been sacrificed. (laughter) Hari-śauri: "Nārada Muni said, A student should practice completely controlling his senses. He should be submissive and should have an attitude of firm friendship for the spiritual master. With a great vow, the brahmacārī should live at the gurukula, only for the benefit of the guru." Prabhupāda: Next. Pradyumna: *"At both junctions of day, namely, in the early morning and in the evening, he should be fully absorbed in thoughts of the spiritual master, fire, the sun*-god and Lord Viṣṇu, and by chanting the Gāyatrī mantra he should worship them." Prabhupāda: Go on reading. Pradyumna: "Being called by the spiritual master, the student should study the Vedic mantras regularly. Every day, before beginning his studies and at the end of his studies, the disciple should respectfully offer obeisances unto the spiritual master." "Carrying pure kuṣa grass in his hand, the brahmacārī should dress regularly with a belt of straw and with deerskin garments. He should wear matted hair, carry a rod and waterpot, and be decorated with a sacred thread, as recommended in the śāstras." "The brahmacārī should go out morning and evening to collect alms, and he should offer all that he collects to the spiritual master. He should eat only if ordered to take food by the spiritual master; otherwise, if the spiritual master does not give this order, he may sometimes have to fast." "A brahmacārī should be quite well behaved and gentle and should not eat or collect more than necessary. He must always be active and expert, fully believing in the instructions of the spiritual master and the sastra. Fully controlling his senses, he should associate only as much as necessary with women or those controlled by women." "A brahmacārī, or one who has not accepted the grhastha āśrama (family life), must rigidly avoid talking with women or about women, for the senses are so powerful that they may agitate even the mind of a sannyāsī, a member of the renounced order of life." "If the wife of the spiritual master is young, a young brahmacārī should not allow her to care for his hair, massage his body with oil, or bathe him with affection like a mother." "Woman is compared to fire, and man is compared to a butter pot. Therefore a man should avoid associating even with his own daughter in a secluded place. Similarly, he should also avoid association with other women. One should associate with women only for important business and not otherwise." *"As long as a living entity is not completely self-realized-as long as he is not independent of the misconception of identifying with his body, which is nothing but a reflection of the original body and senses*-he cannot be relieved of the conception of duality, which is epitomized by the duality between man and woman. Thus there is every chance that he will fall down because his intelligence is bewildered." "All the rules and regulations apply equally to the householder and the sannyāsī, the member of the renounced order of life. The grhastha, however, is given permission by the spiritual master to indulge in sex during the period favorable for procreation." "Brahmacārīs or grhasthas who have taken the vow of celibacy as described above should not indulge in the following: applying powder or ointment to the eyes, massaging the head with oil, massaging the body with the hands, seeing a woman or painting a woman's picture, eating meat, drinking wine, decorating the body with flower garlands, smearing scented ointment on the body, or decorating the body with ornaments. These they should give up." *"According to the rules and regulations mentioned above, one who is twice*-born, namely a brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya, should reside in the gurukula under the care of the spiritual master. There he should study and learn all the Vedic literatures along with their supplements and Upanisads, according to his ability and power to study. If possible, the student or disciple should reward the spiritual master with the remuneration the spiritual master requests, and then, following the master's order, the disciple should leave and accept one of the other āśramas, namely the grhastha āśrama, vanaprastha āśrama, or sannyasa āśrama, as he desires." Prabhupāda: So this is my copy? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: You can give. Hari-śauri: This is Prabhupāda's latest book just came out. George Harrison: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What was it he was saying? I thought you were going to read out of here something about Kṛṣ-ṇa, the two... Pradyumna: This was about the brahmacārī in the gurukula, in the school, what a young child should learn to practice. George Harrison: Yes. But I thought you were saying something about the sound of the two sounds of Kṛṣ and ṇa. *Prabhupāda: Ah, kṛṣṇeti varṇa*-dvayī. Gurudāsa: Ah, yes. "I wish I had ten thousand ears to hear the sweet sound of Kṛṣṇa, and ten thousand tongues to say it." George Harrison: So this isn't..., I didn't get this one? Mukunda: Not yet, no. That's latest. It just came out. George Harrison: Seventh Canto, Part Three. Hari-śauri: They bring the first two copies to Śrīla Prabhupāda wherever he is. This we got in New York just before we left. Gurudāsa: It's right off the press. Prabhupāda: These pictures are made by our boys. George Harrison: Yes, beautiful. Prabhupāda: They are learning more and more. Hari-śauri: This one is very good because it explains the breakdown of the social positions. George Harrison: Hm? Hari-śauri: The varṇāśrama system. It's very good. *Prabhupāda: This instruction of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam was never given before in the Western countries. This is the first time. George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore they're appreciating. We are selling our books daily sixty thousand dollars. All over the world. Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you're going to outdo Shakespeare soon. You'll have written more English words than William Shakespeare. (Prabhupāda laughs) Maybe you already have. *Hari-śauri: I don't think Shakespeare's brought out fifty*-six books. Mukunda: The Encyclopedia Brittanica wrote to us asking for... Prabhupāda: They have said... George Harrison: These books are such a lot of work. I don't know how he did it all. Gurudāsa: While everyone else sleeps, Prabhupāda... George Harrison: Yes. Prabhupāda: At night I don't sleep. Not that because I am nowadays sick. But generally I don't sleep. At most two hours. At most. Hari-śauri: I think it's a long time since you've taken any rest at night. Prabhupāda: I take little rest during daytime. So on the whole, three to four hours. But actually I do not like to sleep. George Harrison: No, it's a waste of time. Prabhupāda: I think it is, when I go to sleep, I think that now I'm going to waste my time. I actually think like that. George Harrison: What's the word for..., the call it a little, little death. Sleep is the little death. Prabhupāda: The śāstra also, Prahlada Mahārāja describes the sleeping is waste of time. You find out that verse. Hari-śauri: It's in Seven, Two? Prabhupāda: Seventh Canto. He's estimating you have got hundred years at most. Out of that, fifty years lost, sleep. And then twenty years playing as child, a boy. And in old age, another... Hari-śauri: "Every human being has a maximum duration of life of one hundred years, but for one who cannot control his senses, half of those years are completely lost because at night he sleeps twelve hours, being covered by ignorance. Therefore such a person has a lifetime of only fifty years." Prabhupāda: Fifty years immediately minus. Then out of the fifty years? Hari-śauri: "In the tender age of childhood, when everyone is bewildered, one passes ten years. Similarly, in boyhood, engaged in sporting and playing, one passes another ten years. In this way, twenty years are wasted. Similarly, in old age, when one is an invalid, unable to perform even material activities, one passes another twenty years wastefully." "One whose mind and senses are uncontrolled becomes increasingly attached to family life because of insatiable lusty desires and very strong illusion. In such a madman's life the remaining years are also wasted, because even during those years he cannot engage himself in devotional service." Prabhupāda: So hundred years finish. (laughs) Fifty years, twenty years, twenty years and ten years. George Harrison: Which volume is that? Hari-śauri: This is the one before that one. George Harrison: Part Two. Hari-śauri: Yes. This is Prahlāda Mahārāja's instructions. Prabhupāda: You can give that volume also. George Harrison: Did you, do you.... I'm not too sure which ones I've got up to. Mukunda: He's got up to.... You've got about two more coming before that. I'll give them to you. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa varṇa*-dvayī, you have got that? *Jayatīrtha: I found that verse. Actually, Rancor found it. Tuṇḍe tāṇḍavinī ratim vitanute tuṇḍāvalī*-ladbhaye. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna? You just note down this verse and give him. Jayatīrtha: And the translation is "I do not know how much nectar the two syllables 'kṛṣ-ṇa' have produced. When the holy name of Kṛṣṇa is chanted, it appears to dance within the mouth. We then desire many, many mouths. When that name enters the holes of the ears, we desire many millions of years. And when the holy name dances in the courtyard of the heart, it conquers the activities of the mind, and therefore all the senses become inert." That was Rupa Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: That is very nice poetry. Read it gain. Tuṇḍe tāṇḍavinī... Jayatīrtha: The English? I don't chant very well. Harikeśa Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Yes, you first of all recite. Very nice. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: One thing you can record and give him. Hari-śauri: I'll make a copy of this tape and give it to him. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, you should recite very properly, and then it will recorded. Then it will be right. George Harrison: This is Sanskrit. Jayatīrtha: That's Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: In India, all different states they have got different alphabets, but the Sanskrit is the same. There is no change in Sanskrit. India's culture, all the provinces, they talk a little Sanskrit. If you chant this mantra according to the Sanskrit tune, oh, your admirers will take it very nicely. (laughter) And that will be a great benefit to the mass of people. George Harrison: I don't know if they'd like it. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) George Harrison: They don't understand. Already they don't understand such a lot. Even if you say it in English. Even when you say things to them in English, they don't understand. Prabhupāda: That word Kṛṣṇa, if they hear, that will be sufficient. George Harrison: We were in Vṛndāvana, somebody, we were singing, singing in the morning, singing this "Jaya Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. George Harrison: And he asked, this person said to me, "You should make it into a song in English." So I wrote English verses, and in each chorus it as "jaya kṛṣṇa, jaya kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa, jaya kṛṣṇa, jaya śrī kṛṣṇa; *jaya rādhe, jaya rādhe, rādhe, jaya rādhe, jaya śrī rādhe." I don't know, did you..., if you heard that song. It was on that "Extra Texture"-you know that one? "He who..." I wrote the English words. "He whose eyes have seen what our lives have been, and who we really are*-it is He, jaya śrī kṛṣṇa." And then it has a chorus. "He whose sweetness flows to any one of those that cares to look His way, see His smile, jaya śrī rādhe," then the chorus again. Mukunda: This is on George's new record. George Harrison: No, it was last year. And "He who is complete, three worlds at His feet, cause of every star, it is He, jaya śrī kṛṣṇa." It's a nice song. But I took the old, the tune that we sang in Vṛndāvana, and just make slightly different, you know, with chords, chord patterns. Prabhupāda: So in your next record, you can give this. (laughter) *George Harrison: [break] ...this little girl, he had a baby girl and was trying to think of a name, so I told him to call it Dhara, you know? 'Cause from Rādhā-rādhārādhārādhā*-it becomes dhārā. So he called his girl that name. Jayatīrtha: There's a story of Valmiki, you know that story? Gurudāsa: Maramaramaramaramaramara. Jayatīrtha: Valmiki was a murderer, or a dacoit, thief. So he was met by Nārada Muni, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, Valmiki. Jayatīrtha: And he was advised by Nārada Muni to please chant the holy name of the Lord and give up this thievery. So he wouldn't. So instead Nārada Muni said, "You chant mara." Mara means death. So he agreed. Prabhupāda: Maramara, rāma. Jayatīrtha: Later on, this Valmiki, he wrote the *Rāmāyaṇa* after having chanting rāma, mara, he became purified. Hari-śauri: Transcendental trickery. Jayatīrtha: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya. (end) *Radio Interview-*-July 27, 1976, London Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Robinson, Mike Robinson, from London Broadcasting Company. It's a very prominent news program in London, and he wanted to interview you, ask some questions. Mike Robinson: If I could just spend one or two minutes of your time. Shall I explain the program? We do a religious program for two and a half hours on a Sunday which covers all different religions, and what we'd like is, people in London have seen, you know, many members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement on Oxford Street. And if you would explain more about the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, how it was formed, what you believe, this sort of idea, so that people would have a better understanding of the movement. And I'll just set up a tape recorder first. Mukunda: This is your biography, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen it, encyclopedia. Mike Robinson: Could we just talk for a minute or two so that we could get all this set up? If you'd like, just to tell me. You're going to India tomorrow, is that correct? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am leaving tomorrow. Mike Robinson: And when did you come into England? Hari-śauri: He came seven days ago. Mike Robinson: Oh, I see. Your Grace, could I ask you, first, how you pronounce your name. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Swami Mike Robinson: Gee, it's very, very difficult isn't it. Now I understand you're the founder of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Can you tell me how it came to be founded? Prabhupāda: Give him the name. Mike Robinson: That's the name, is it. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Mike Robinson: I see. And what's he pointing, that he should...? Mukunda: He wanted you to see how it's pronounced. Jayatīrtha: Spelled. Mike Robinson: Oh, thank you very much. Can you tell me how the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement came to be founded? Prabhupāda: You can tell these things. These ordinary things you can say. Jayatīrtha: It's being recorded now. It's being recorded directly for the radio program now. Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda was a student of a great spiritual teacher in India, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Mike Robinson: There's a problem with me asking him questions, is it? Mukunda: Well, these are, just these preliminary questions. He prefers to discuss mostly the philosophical side. This is like background. Mike Robinson: So perhaps I'd like an interview with you as well. Jayatīrtha: That would be good. Mukunda: You want to do it now or later? Mike Robinson: It would perhaps be easier if I could do that one first. You could answer the ones that.... So which questions would he be happier answering? What you believe, that sort of? Jayatīrtha: Yes. Mike Robinson: And develop from that. I'm sorry about that. If I ask you a few questions about what you believe and that sort of, along those lines, and then get some of the background material from some of your other members of the movement. Can you tell me what you believe, what is the philosophy of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is not a question of belief, it is a science, a spiritual movement. Just like a man is living and he's dead, what is the difference? The difference is that the spirit soul or the living force is out of the body. Therefore he's called dead body. So there are two things, anyone can appreciate. One, this body, and other, the living force of the body. So we are speaking of the living force of the body. That is the difference between material and spiritual. As such, in the beginning, it is very difficult for ordinary man to understand what is our movement, but our movement begins when one understands that he is soul or something other than this body. Then this movement begins. Mike Robinson: And when we understand that... Prabhupāda: You can understand at any moment, but it requires little brain. Just like a child is growing or changing the body. A child is becoming a boy and the boy is becoming a young man. The body is changing, but the child cannot understand that his body's changing. Actually, the body is changing. So the young man's body is also changing, and the old man's body. Therefore the conclusion is that the body is changing, and the occupier of the body, it is the same. So on this logic, the occupier being the same and the bodies changing, it is to be concluded that when this body is changed, we get another body. This is called transmigration of the soul. Mike Robinson: So when people die, it is just the physical body that dies. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained very elaborately in the Bhagavad*-gita: na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācin na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Mike Robinson: Are you there referring to references from the scriptures? Prabhupāda: Yes, so many references. It is a series of education. What is that? Read it. Harikeśa: *"For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever*-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." Mike Robinson: Thank you very much for reading that. So can you explain to me just a bit more, if the soul is undying, does everybody's soul go to be with God when they die? Do you have a belief in a heaven or a hell? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. If he's qualified, if he qualifies himself in this life to go back home, back to Godhead, then he can go. If he does not qualify himself, he gets another material body, and there are 8,400,000 different forms of body. And according to his desire and karma, activities, the nature, laws of nature, gives him a body. Just like a man infects some disease and he develops that disease. Is it difficult to understand? Mike Robinson: It's very difficult to understand all of it. Perhaps we can... Prabhupāda: Now suppose somebody has infected some smallpox disease. After seven days it develops. What is that called, that period? Mike Robinson: Incubation? Is that the word? Prabhupāda: Ah, incubation, no, another technical, yes, that after some time, the disease comes. There is a technical name. Anyway, so you cannot avoid it. If you have infected some disease, it will develop by nature's law. It is not possible to avoid it. Similarly, during our this life, we are in association with different modes of material nature, and that will decide what kind of body we are going to get next life. That is strictly under the laws of nature. Everything is under the laws of nature. You have no control over it; you are completely dependent, but people, on account of dull brain, they think that they are free. They are not free. They are imagining they are free. They're completely under the laws of nature. So this next birth will be decided according to my activities this life, sinful or pious, like that. *Mike Robinson: Your Grace, if we could perhaps go back over that just for a minute*-you said nobody is free. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mike Robinson: But are you saying that if we live a good life we in some way determine our future as well? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mike Robinson: So we are free to choose in so far as what we believe important. I mean religion is important, because if we believe in God and live a good life... *Prabhupāda: There is no question of believe. Don't bring this question*-belief. It is law. Just like there is government, you believe or not believe, who cares for you? That is government. Similarly, you believe or not believe, there is God. If you don't believe in God and do independently whatever you like, then you'll be punishable. Mike Robinson: I see. Does it matter what religion you believe? Does it matter which religion you believe? Would it matter if one was a devotee of Hare Kṛṣṇa...? Prabhupāda: It is not the question of which religion, it is a question of science, that what is your position. You are a spiritual being, you are under the laws of nature. So you may believe.... Just like you may believe in Christian religion, I may believe in Hindu religion, but it does not mean that a Christian child is not going to become a boy. We are talking of the science, that the child become a boy. This is natural law. It is not that because you are Christian you are becoming a boy, or because I am Hindu I am becoming.... Everyone becomes a boy. So similarly, the laws of nature is applicable to everyone. You believe this religion or that religion, it doesn't matter. Mike Robinson: So you're saying there's only one God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mike Robinson: Provided you believe in that one God. Prabhupāda: Yes. One God, one God's law, nature's law, and we are all under that nature's law, under the control of the Supreme. So if we think that we are free, we can do independently, that is our foolishness. Mike Robinson: I see. Can you explain to me then what difference it makes being a member of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means one who is serious to understand this science*-he's member of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. There's no question of he belongs to some group, anyone, student. Just like in a college, students can be admitted. He may be a Christian, he may be a Hindu, he may be Muhammadan, it doesn't matter. It is a science to understand. Mike Robinson: And what difference would it make to him, being taught what the Hare Kṛṣṇa people... *Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of education, that you are a spirit soul. Because you are spirit soul you are changing bodies. This is the understanding, beginning A-B-C-D. So when the body is finished, annihilated, you are not finished*-you get another body. Just like you have got this coat and shirt. If you change tomorrow, you come to me in another shirt or another coat, that means you are not finished. This science has to be understood. Then one can make progress about the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Mike Robinson: I'm beginning to understand. What I'm finding difficult is, for instance, we see on Oxford Street a lot of people who are handing out Hare Kṛṣṇa literature. Now... Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the literature, how to convince them about the spiritual life. Mike Robinson: And you're really not concerned whether or not they join the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. One must be.... Our mission is to educate. People are in ignorance. They are living in fool's paradise, that he is his body. Bas. When the body's finished, everything is finished. That is foolishness. Mike Robinson: And you're basically just concerned to tell them that there's a spiritual dimension to life. And if they then were to find that spiritual dimension in something like the Anglican Church, that would not worry you. Prabhupāda: I do not know what is Anglican Church... Mike Robinson: Sorry, the English Church. Prabhupāda: ...but we are concerned with the educational propaganda, that "You are not this body. Body is your covering, shirt and coat. Within the body you are living, and as you are spirit soul, you have got so many things to know." Mike Robinson: Sorry, could I just change the tape? Perhaps if we can pick up where we were, if you could just carry on. Perhaps if I can carry on from where I was, that what I'm trying to understand is the difference it makes, a person being a member... Prabhupāda: You try to understand this, that as you have got experience of change of body.... Have you got or not? Mike Robinson: Yes, I've got the difference there. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, the so*-called death is also a change of body. This has to be understood first. Mike Robinson: Yes, I think I've got that far. Now if we could go on from there. And then we said, you said that it therefore made a difference in the life after death, how you lived, that there were natural laws that determined that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The process is that the spirit soul is invisible in our material eyes, very small. So after the destruction of this gross body, there is another body, subtle body*-mind, intelligence and ego. So at the time of death, when finishing this body, mind works. So, according to that process, the mind carries the small spirit soul to another body. Just like the air carries the flavor. Nobody can see wherefrom this rose flavor is coming, but it is being carried by the air, very subtle. You cannot see, but it is being done. Similarly, the soul is very subtle. It is being carried by the mind. According to the mind, he enters into the womb of another mother through the semina of the father, and then he develops a particular type of body given by the mother. It may be human being, it may be cat, dog or anything. Mike Robinson: So we will come back in another body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, that's when the body is developed, he comes out and his work begins. Mike Robinson: Are you say that we were perhaps something else before we were born as well? And we keep coming back in something else next time? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Mike Robinson: And how long does this go on? Prabhupāda: This is going on, this is going on, because you are eternal. According to your work, you are simply changing body. Therefore you should be educated how to stop this business, how to remain in our original, spiritual body. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Mike Robinson: Oh, I see. So if I gain Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I wouldn't have to have the threat of coming back as a dog or something like that. Prabhupāda: No, no. Mike Robinson: Can you tell... Prabhupāda: Read that, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Harikeśa: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: God says like that, that "Anyone who understands Me..." Because one cannot understand God with material speculation; that is not possible. When he comes onto the spiritual platform, then he gets the required brain to understand what is God, and if he understands God, what He is, then he does not get any more this material body, he goes back to home. Mike Robinson: And then he is with God forever. Prabhupāda: Then he lives eternally, he lives eternally, no more change of body. Mike Robinson: I see. Now, we've had two readings from your scriptures. Where did these scriptures comes from? Can you explain that briefly? Prabhupāda: This is coming from Vedic literature, which is eternal. That is also eternal. But when there is creation, this creation, material creation, anything, material creation.... Just like this microphone is a material creation. So how to deal with it, there is some literature. Is it not? Mike Robinson: How to deal with the microphone? Prabhupāda: Yes. There is some literature. Hari-śauri: There's some literature explaining. Mike Robinson: Yes, that's right, there is. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that literature comes along with the creation of the microphone. So similarly, the Vedic literatures comes immediately with the creation. Mike Robinson: I see. So these scriptures have been in existence since we have, is what you're saying. What about other scriptures, other religions have got their scriptures. Do you believe, do you accept them? Prabhupāda: Any scriptures, any.... Just like the same example. The literature issued along with the manufacturer of this microphone is bona fide. So if anyone follows that bona fide literature, he can deal with it. Otherwise, a bogus. Mike Robinson: I see. Well, if we could take something which I believe you feel very strongly about, and that's some of the other Eastern cults and gurus. Prabhupāda: That I cannot study. Mike Robinson: Yes, can you explain to me why it is that...? Prabhupāda: So far I know, they do not know anything. They simply come and bluff and cheat, that's all. Mike Robinson: I see. What are the big differences that you seem to be... Prabhupāda: The difference is they are not following the original literature. They are manufacturing their own literature. That is the difference. Not authorized. Mike Robinson: I mean of the big differences I'm noticing is that you are stressing very much science and rational thinking, and they very often stress feeling, which doesn't seem to... Prabhupāda: Yes. When there is something wrong, you just consult the original literature, not any literature issued by a bogus man. Mike Robinson: Can you explain to me, then, the place of feeling in your religion. The place of emotions. Prabhupāda: Our feeling is that we are dealing with the genuine thing, that's all. Mike Robinson: And can..., if we can go on with that. Everybody seems to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa a lot of times during the day. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the easiest process to become purified, especially given in this age. Because people are so dull that they cannot understand spiritual understanding very easily. So in order to purify him, this chanting is especially offered, that if he chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, then his brain becomes purified to understand spiritual things. Mike Robinson: You say it's the simplest one. Are there presumably other chants that maybe you yourself use? Prabhupāda: I don't think there is any other chanting. This is the only chanting. Where is other chanting? You can manufacture so many, but this is the only, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Mike Robinson: I see. Let's see, what else? You founded this movement I think it was ten years ago, that's correct. Why was it that you left till you were so late in life before you founded it? Prabhupāda: I must be prepared, I must be bona fide to preach. Mike Robinson: And how do you become qualified? How did you become qualified? Prabhupāda: That is a spiritual process. Mike Robinson: And so you presumably had your teachers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mike Robinson: Just as you now are teaching many... Prabhupāda: If one is going to pass M.A. examination, he must be qualified. Not that all of a sudden one becomes M.A. He must be qualified. Mike Robinson: So what are you doing now? You've come to England for a brief stay. I gather you travel a lot. Prabhupāda: Just to guide my disciples and to see how they are doing things, that's all. Mike Robinson: And do you do that, or travel around the world, don't you. Prabhupāda: Yes, but now I am getting old. So it is little difficult for me. Still I have to do and come and see. Mike Robinson: And that is your mission in life, is it, to... Prabhupāda: Yes, I have established it, I want to see that it is not spoiled. Mike Robinson: I see. Can you tell me how you feel led, you know, how you are guided to do what you do? Prabhupāda: Well, there are the books, just like I also told you, the literature. Mike Robinson: So it's from your scriptures that you've learned that you've got to do this. Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got so many literatures. We are explaining in English. Guide is.... It is not manufactured. The guide is from the beginning. Simply one has to take that guidance, then everything's all right. And if we manufacture guidance, then it is spoiled. Just like in the literature of this microphone you say that this should be like this, this should be like this, number two should be by the side of number four. You cannot make any change. Then it is spoiled. Mike Robinson: Now we've talked for some time concerning spiritual matters and the philosophy of Hare Kṛṣṇa. How does it affect the way people live? Prabhupāda: Yes, because he's suffering for want of this knowledge. He's misunderstanding himself that he is the body. Suppose if you misunderstand that you are coat and shirt, and so you sew and wash the coat and shirt. Will you be happy? Will you be happy? Mike Robinson: No, I won't. Prabhupāda: Yes. So similarly all these rascals, they are simply washing the coat and shirt. They have no information that what is there within the coat and shirt. They have no information. Ask anybody. All rascals will say, "Yes, I am Englishman, I am this coat," that's all. "I am thinking like an Englishman." That is shirt. And what you are, he cannot say. You are thinking, that is your mind. You are having this body, that is your body, but what you are? Who is thinking over this? Nobody. Mike Robinson: So by understanding... *Prabhupāda: Misunderstanding. The whole civilization, the modern civilization, is going on misunderstanding. Dehātma*-buddhiḥ -just like cats and dogs. Suppose if you become very proud, "I am Englishman. Why you have come here?" As the dogs bark, "Row! Row! Why you have come?" So where is the difference? What is the difference? He's thinking "I am dog," you are thinking "Englishman," I am thinking "Indian." There is no difference. So if we keep people in darkness of dog's mentality, and declare we are advanced in civilization, most misguiding. Mike Robinson: I see. And so when people are taught, they will then understand. But what I'd also like to know, how would it affect the way they live? In sort of purely..., the way they go about their life. Prabhupāda: You see they are living, these boys are living. It is not very difficult. They are not dying, they are living. Mike Robinson: Yes, I accept that completely, but I want to know what differences, if you could tell me basically, what difference it makes to their life. Prabhupāda: Difference is that if you accept this mode of life, it is very simplified, and no botheration, and you make your spiritual progress very easily. If you take otherwise, then it is difficult. Mike Robinson: But are you asking people, if they accept your teachings, to retreat from the world, like for instance, the people who are surrounding us now? Prabhupāda: No, they are not retreated. What do you mean by retreat? I am using this microphone. Where is retreatment? Mike Robinson: Sorry, maybe retreat was the wrong word. But are you asking them, for instance, if I was to become a member of the movement... Prabhupāda: No, we are asking that use this microphone for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not for sense gratification. Mike Robinson: Not for? Prabhupāda: Sense gratification. Devotees: Sense gratification, pleasing the senses. Mike Robinson: Oh, thank you. *Prabhupāda: That is the.... The microphone is the same. And the politician can speak all nonsense, and the so*-called scientist may speak all nonsense of going to the Mars planet, but we don't talk all nonsense. Mike Robinson: If we could just put one more tape on it. No, if I can explain to you, the question I am trying to ask, which I'm finding difficulty to explain. Obviously, the members of the movement who are here have made a definite sort of decision that you've decided, they've decided, for instance, to dress differently, and they're dressing now in what would appear to be an Indian style. Is it necessary to do that, or could I carry on being a member of a radio station and still be a member of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Harikeśa: That would be very nice. Mike Robinson: Perhaps if I phrase it a bit differently. I gather that the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement also has some concern for areas of the world where there is suffering, physical suffering. Prabhupāda: We have got the only concern. Others, they are simply avoiding. They have no responsibility. They are talking all nonsense. We have got real responsibility. These people are being misguided, they are kept in darkness. Let us try to give them some enlightenment. *Mike Robinson: Yes, but apart from giving spiritual enlightenment, do you also..., are you also concerned for people's physical well*-being? Prabhupāda: That is automatically done. Mike Robinson: And how would you go about doing that? Would you help the sick people? Prabhupāda: Just like if you have got a car to drive on. So naturally you take care of the car also. But not that you identify yourself, "I am this car." That is nonsense. They are doing that. They are taking too much care of the car, thinking that the car is one. He forgets that he is different from the car, he has got different business. He cannot eat the petrol and be satisfied. He has got different eating. But these rascals, they are thinking that "Petrol is also my eating." And they are drinking petrol and dying, that's all. Petrol is meant for the car, and for you there are so many fruits, flowers, milk. But if a man thinks that "I am the car, I must drink this petrol," then he is doomed. Mike Robinson: I see. There's two things if I could perhaps bring up. One is a quote that we had.... I was given this literature by some of your people before I came, in which one of the things you say is that "Religion without a rational basis is just sentiment." Can you explain that to us, and the converse of it, which... Prabhupāda: Just like they, most religions, they say, "We believe." So what is this believe? You may believe something which is not naturally correct. Just like some of the Christian people, they say "We believe there is no soul of the animal." That is not correct. You have believed because you want to eat the animal. You have discovered philosophy, but that's not the fact. Mike Robinson: How do you know the animal has a soul? Prabhupāda: You can know also. What is the difference? How do you distinguish that the animal has no soul and the man has soul? How do you distinguish? How do you say the man has soul and the animal has no soul? How do you distinguish? Mike Robinson: I believe this Christian religion do it because their scriptures say... Prabhupāda: Again you believe, don't believe, don't believe. When you say that the animal has no soul, but you believe or you know that man has soul. So what is the distinction between the man and the animal you find so that you say that the animal has no soul? What is your scientific conclusion? How do you say that animal has no soul? Mike Robinson: As far as the Christian faith is concerned, doesn't it base it... Prabhupāda: Why are you bringing Christian? Mike Robinson: Well, I thought you quoted Christianity. But as far as the Christian faith is concerned, don't they quote their scriptures? Prabhupāda: Then it is misleading. As soon as you say that "We Christians, we believe," then it is misbelief. It is not scientific. Mike Robinson: Well how does it become scientific? Prabhupāda: Scientific because the animal eats, you eat. The animal sleeps, you sleep. The animals have sex, you have sex. The animal defends, you also defend. Then where is the difference between you and the animal? Why do you say there is no soul? Mike Robinson: I can see that completely, but what I'm maybe querying is, for instance, the Christian scriptures would say that someone... Prabhupāda: Don't bring Christian scripture now. Simply you just try to understand, that animal eats, you eat, and the animal sleeps, you sleep. The animals have sex, you have got sex. He also defends when he's attacked, you also defend. Then if the behavior of a living being is the same, how do you say that the animal has no soul? Why do you say like that? Irresponsibly? Mike Robinson: I see what you're getting at, but is that also... Prabhupāda: What is your answer, first of all? Mike Robinson: Well, my... Prabhupāda: Apart from your believing as Christian. As we are talking, as a scientist, how do you deny this animal has no soul? Mike Robinson: But ultimately you're basing all your faith factually, aren't you, on your reasoning? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It is quite logic, that the animal can eat, you can eat; the animal can sleep, you can sleep. The animal can have sex, you can have sex; the animal can defend, you can defend; so why do you deny this poor animal soul? Mike Robinson: Well, perhaps if I put my point perhaps a slightly different way, if, by your reasoning, if.... This is a hypothetical situation, but if you, by your reasoning, could imagine something that seemed contrary to the scriptures that you were reading earlier... Prabhupāda: Again scripture, why do you bring scripture? Mike Robinson: Well, I'm referring to your scripture, not... Prabhupāda: Not my scripture, it is common sense, talking. Mike Robinson: Yes, but everything that you, because in... Prabhupāda: No, forget that everything, come to the common platform of understanding. The animal is eating, you are eating, the animal sleeping, you are sleeping. The animal is defending, you are defending. The animal is having sex, you have sex. The animal have children, you have got children. You have got a living place, they have got a living place. So why do you say.... If your body's cut, there is blood. If the animal body's cut, there is blood. So all the similarities are there. So why you deny one similarity? Analogy. Analogy means points of similarity. So this is logic. You have read logic? There is a chapter, analogy. Analogy means points of similarity. If the points of similarity are so many things, why one similarity should be avoided? That is not logic. That is not science. Mike Robinson: But if you take that logic and use it the other way... Prabhupāda: Otherwise, there is no other way. Mike Robinson: No, if you say... Prabhupāda: If you are not on the basis of logic, then you are not rational. Mike Robinson: Yes, okay. But let's start from another hypothesis. If you say the animal has no soul... Prabhupāda: How you can say? Mike Robinson: No, hang on, if you started off by saying that, then you'd have to say human beings would have no soul, wouldn't you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mike Robinson: And therefore... Prabhupāda: If you accept human being has soul, you have to accept animal has soul. If you accept animal has no soul, then there is no soul. Mike Robinson: Well what proof have you got, then, that a human being has got a soul? Prabhupāda: That is your business. We say everyone has soul. The animal has soul and the man has soul. Mike Robinson: But if you're going to be rational, you've got surely to prove, you see you've got to prove that a human being has a soul. Prabhupāda: This is rational. Because we see all the points of similarity, analogy, therefore the human being has soul and the animal has soul, by points of similarity. Mike Robinson: Yes, I can see the point you're trying to make about similarity, but what I'm asking is, what proof do you have that a human being has a soul? Prabhupāda: That is, I have already begun. As soon as the soul is gone, what is the value of your this beautiful body? Who cares for this body? You throw it away, kick it out. And now, if I touch your hair, there will be fight. (laughter) Yes. That is the distinction. The soul is there and soul is not there. As soon as soul is not there, it has no value, useless. Mike Robinson: I see. So what part then do... *Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to study, that, this.... At the present moment people are so dull*-headed, they are not taking the important point, that this body, one minute ago it was so important, and now it has no value. If you kick on his face, nobody will say. But they have no brain to understand what is that thing missing, that it has become so unimportant that within a minute.... They have no brain. The so-called scientists, philosophers, all dull-headed. It is very abominable condition of society. There is no man who is real brain. Mike Robinson: Are you, sir, writing off all scientists because they've failed to understand the spiritual dimension in life? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, it is scientific, everything scientific. Science means knowledge, full knowledge. Mike Robinson: But you were a chemist yourself, were you not, in secular life before you took up the position you have...? Prabhupāda: It doesn't require to become a very big chemist. Any common sense man can do it. Of course, I was chemist in my previous life. *Mike Robinson: So presumably you think that that science is also important, even if scientists are being dull*-headed. *Prabhupāda: The important so far*-not all-important. Not all-important. Mike Robinson: I see. Can I come back to a question that is interesting me, and that is when we were differing a few minutes ago, you were saying don't bother, you know, don't bring the scriptures in, use common sense. But what part do the scriptures have in your religion? How important are they? *Prabhupāda: Our religion is science. As we, when we speak, that a child grows a boy, it is science, it is not religion. Every child grows to become a boy. Where is the question of religion? Every man dies. Where is the question of religion? And when a man dies, the body is useless. So where is the question of religion? It is science, it is science. Either you Christian or Hindu or Muslim, when you die your body's useless. This is science. You cannot say that "We are Christian. Now the body is dead. Now we don't consider it as dead. We believe it is not dead." No, it is dead. Either you are Christian or Hindu or Muslim, it is dead, it is useless. So when we speak, we speak on this basis, that the body is important*-it doesn't matter whether it is Christian body or Hindu body or Muslim body-so long the soul is there. When the soul is not there, it is useless. It is applicable to everyone. Mike Robinson: I think I'm beginning to get, if you could explain, a bit confused. What I'd like you to explain is... Prabhupāda: We are trying to educate people on this basis. Mike Robinson: But that's, if I understand you correctly, you seem to be educating people on a purely scientific basis. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mike Robinson: So where does religion come into it at all? Prabhupāda: Religion means also science. But they have taken religion as faith, "I believe." Religion means, actually, religion means.... Just like in the dictionary you find what is the religion... Hari-śauri: Obeying the Supreme Person. Prabhupāda: Yes. Religion means to learn how to obey the supreme controller. That is religion. So you may be Christian, I may be Hindu, it doesn't matter. But we must accept there is a supreme controller. Mike Robinson: Are you happy to carry on for a few more minutes perhaps? Hari-śauri: I have that reference, in the dictionary. It says "Human recognition of superhuman controlling power..." Prabhupāda: Just see! Hari-śauri: "...and especially of a personal God entitled to obedience, and effect of such recognition on the conduct of mental attitude." Prabhupāda: This is religion. This is religion. So this religion is applicable to everyone, any human being. Why do you bring Christian or Hindu or Muslim, or...? Everyone has to accept that. That is real religion. And this is not religion, "We believe there is no soul of the animal." That is not religion. That is most unscientific. That is not religion. Religion means scientific understanding of the supreme controller. So now if you accept the supreme controller, then if you violate something, you must be punished. Immediately you have to accept. As soon as you accept there is supreme controller, so immediately as you violate the laws of the supreme controller, immediately you are punished. That is nature's law. Mike Robinson: Can we, can you say a bit more of that, just for the tape? You were saying that religion is obeying the supreme controller. *Prabhupāda: Yes! Religion means to understand the supreme controller and obey. That's all. Just like good citizen means he understands the government and obeys the laws of government. That's all. Good citizens. What is the difference between bad citizen and good citizen? The bad citizen means he doesn't care for the government-"Ah, I don't care for"*-that is bad citizen. That is irreligious. If you are bad citizen, then you are irreligious. If you are good citizen, then you are religious. Mike Robinson: Would you..., in your opinion, is it impossible for somebody to be a scientist and not to believe in God? Prabhupāda: Unless he's a rascal, he cannot say that. Scientifically, you have to accept God. You cannot deny God. Just like the example I have given sometimes, just like you see there are so many living entities, beginning from grass, or anything. There are so many living entities coming out of the material elements. Some of them are coming from water, some of them coming from land, some of them coming from air.... [break] There is life in fire also. So the material nature is giving birth to so many living entities. So if the material nature is the mother and all these living entities are children, then where is the father? Mike Robinson: I don't know. The father is God. Prabhupāda: There. You must know there must be father. I may know, not know him, but without father the children cannot be brought into existence. This is science. First of all, try to understand this. The mother is there, the children are there. So there must be father. This is scientific. So who is that rascal scientist who can say "No, there is no father"? Then he's not a scientist, he's a rascal. How you can deny the existence of father? You may not see him or may see Him, it doesn't matter. There must be father. This simple understanding. Mike Robinson: So you completely write off anybody who says that there should be a step of faith. And would you, in other words... Prabhupāda: No faith! It is fact! Mike Robinson: So you would say that science can prove that God exists? Prabhupāda: Yes, here is proof. Here is the proof, that there is children. Children are children; there is mother; so there must be father. This is proof. It doesn't require much proof. Mike Robinson: I see. Can you tell me what you believe to be the meaning of life, why do we exist in the first place? Prabhupāda: Meaning of life means to enjoy, but we are in a different platform of life. Therefore we are suffering instead of enjoying. But if you come to the real platform, then you enjoy. Because here we see struggle for existence, everyone is struggling, but what is the aim? For enjoyment of life. Therefore life means enjoyment. But at the present moment our life is not enjoyment. Mike Robinson: At the present moment, our life is not...? *Prabhupāda: Our life is not enjoyment*-suffering. Mike Robinson: Suffering, hmm. Prabhupāda: Yes, do you admit or not? Mike Robinson: You are saying at the present moment we are all suffering? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mike Robinson: Yes, I would agree with that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then the question should be, "I want to enjoy. Why I am suffering?" Then you will have to mold your real life.... Then you'll enjoy. And that is spiritual knowledge. Mike Robinson: I see. Can you explain to me, then, perhaps finally, just some of the stages you go through in this spiritual life. Sort of, from somebody being a new devotee to Hare Kṛṣṇa, what are the mental or the spiritual stages you go through? *Prabhupāda: As they follow the principles, they realize that "Yes, I am advancing," Otherwise, why they should stick? They are also educated, they are young men, and they are coming from respectable family. They are not dull*-headed dogs. So why they are sticking to this principle unless they feel, "Yes, I am making progress"? Just like you are hungry, and if you are given some foodstuff, you eat the.... With every morsel of food you feel, "Yes, my hunger is satisfied. I am feeling strength, I must go on till I am fully satisfied." It is like that. It doesn't require certificate from others. He'll feel himself, "Yes." Mike Robinson: Yes, what I'm asking you, saying, maybe if you could explain to me how you personally, the different feelings... Prabhupāda: We simply suggest that you follow this method and you'll advance. And if anyone follows, he advances, that's all. Our, I am teacher, my business is to give them direction. So if they follow the direction, their business is successful. Mike Robinson: Yes, but perhaps you could explain to me the different feelings that you've gone through in your life. Is that possible? *Prabhupāda: Everyone*-why I, you?-everyone. So long one is in ignorance, there are different feelings. When one is in knowledge, that is permanently. Suppose a man was in ignorance, he was committing a theft and he suffered. And now when he has come to knowledge, that "This business is not good," he does not any more steal and does not suffer. That's all. Mike Robinson: But there must be different stages that you go through, is that not correct? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, different stages. Mike Robinson: Can you tell me from your own experience some of these different stages you've been through. *Prabhupāda: Yes, first stage is that you are inquisitively trying to understand. This is the first stage. This is called śraddha, that you have got some faith, "What is this movement? Let me study." This is the beginning. Then, if you are serious, then those who are cultivating this knowledge, you mix with them, try to understand how they are feeling. Then you'll feel, "Why not become one of them?" Then when you become one of them, then all your misgivings go away. And then you become more faithful and you, then you get a taste. Why these boys are not going to see the cinema? They can go*-other boys are going. They never ask me. Neither they would like to see even. They hate. Their taste is different. Why they do not eat meat, go to the restaurant? Their taste has changed. In this way you make progress. Firm faith, taste is changed, then God-realization, then love of Godhead, the perfection. That is wanted, love of Godhead. That is first-class religion. Not that ritualistic ceremony, "I believe," "This belief." That is not religion; that is cheating. Really when you develop your love for God, that is perfection of religion. Mike Robinson: Perhaps finally, then, I could ask you, do you ever have any doubts? Prabhupāda: If I have doubts, how I am preaching? That means I am cheating. And how I am writing so many books? Do you think a man with doubt can produce, in doubtful condition, he can produce so many books? (devotees quietly laughing) Do you think like that? Mike Robinson: Well, I don't know, I just... Prabhupāda: Well, you should know. (laughter) Mike Robinson: So you never doubt any of this, anything at all. Prabhupāda: We are sure. Mike Robinson: That you have found the truth. Prabhupāda: Utsāhān dhairyāt niścayād. Find out this verse. Harikeśa: *"There are six principles favorable to the execution of pure devotional service: (1) being enthusiastic, (2) endeavoring with confidence, (3) being patient, (4) acting according to regulative principles (such as śravanaṁ kīrtanam viṣṇoḥ smaranam [SB 7.5.23]*-hearing, chanting and remembering Kṛṣṇa), (5) abandoning the association of nondevotees, and (6) following in the footsteps of the previous acaryas. These six principles undoubtedly assure the complete success of pure devotional service." Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is there. Mike Robinson: And you are sure this is the truth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mike Robinson: Thank you very much for talking to me. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him prasādam. Hari-śauri: This is a, just a... Prabhupāda: Take prasādam. Mike Robinson: It's lovely. Do I eat it with a spoon? (laughs) How's the normal way to eat it? Hari-śauri: You can eat it with a spoon, it's all right. Mike Robinson: Yes, there is.... Thank you very much. Harikeśa: There's no rule for taking prasādam. Mike Robinson: What's it made of? Hari-śauri: This is called halava. Prabhupāda: Farina. Hari-śauri: Farina and ghee, it's cooked. Harikeśa: Clarified butter. Prabhupāda: Most of our preparations are made from milk products. Therefore we are so much fond of cow protection. It gives the basic principle of palatable foodstuff. But these people, they do not know. They simply cut the throat of the cow and boil it and with salt. (laughter) They do not know how to keep the cow and take milk from it and prepare hundreds and thousands of nice preparations. That is a lack of civilization. Just like all the, what is called, aborigines, they find an animal, kill it and eat. They do not how to utilize the animals. Most aboriginal. We keep cows, we take milk, and from milk we make yogurt, we make ghee, and from ghee we prepare so many things. Mike Robinson: What do you do with a cow when it dies? Do you just bury it? *Prabhupāda: Yes. If the cow*-eaters can come and take it free of charge. (laughter) Mike Robinson: Well, let me know, you know. Prabhupāda: You can get the skin free of charges. In India still, there is a class, they, when the cow dies, they are called, they are called chamar. So he comes, take away the animal, dead animal, and they eat the flesh and take the skin, make shoes. They get all, everything free. There is no question of going to the butcher's place to purchase. So this much patience they have got, that "We want to eat this cow. All right, let us wait till her death." No, immediately. Just see, what a civilization. And cow is giving milk, she is mother. Killing the mother. Do you think it is civilization? Mother who has given you milk in your childhood, and maintained your life, and because she is old, cutting throat. Is that good civilization? Mike Robinson: Seems silly, doesn't it. Umm, I think are you keeping cows here? Jayatīrtha: Yes. We have about twelve cows here. Prabhupāda: We have got many farms all over the world. They are living very happy. Have you got some pictures? Jayatīrtha: Of the cows? Prabhupāda: No, of our farms, farmland. Leading very simple life, in your country, in, I mean to say, America, Europe. Very simple life. Food grains and milk. You can prepare hundreds of nice preparations, full of vitamins, nutritious. And they do not know how to live civilized life. Jayatīrtha: Here are some nice pictures here. Some of our cows, you see this small one. And here's one of our farms in West Virginia in America. There's over a hundred and fifty cows in this farm. Mike Robinson: Do you find the English weather cold? Prabhupāda: Because I am old man, I'm not a young blood like you. Mike Robinson: And you think it's more because of your age, I mean you've got used to a colder climate than India, have you? Prabhupāda: We are accustomed to tropical climate. This.... Heat does not disturb us, but cold disturbs us. We can tolerate extreme heat, 120 degrees, but we cannot tolerate fifty degree cold. Mike Robinson: That's cold. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes. Mike Robinson: That was very good. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Why young men are attracted to, they inquire? Why young men are attracted in this movement? Mike Robinson: What is the answer? Prabhupāda: They are receptive. Young man is blank slate. They are not sophisticated. Therefore they receive very nicely. Jayatīrtha: Mind is more open. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mind is open. That is.... And they are not so sinful, because they are young. Hari-śauri: Not quite so defeated by material nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is time. Jayatīrtha: Here's some more pictures of our farms. We have about eighteen farms. Hari-śauri: Actually, we have a whole film that shows this farming project; it's very nice. Prabhupāda: You come here every Sunday. You come here every Sunday, take our, this prasādam. Mike Robinson: I'd very much like if I could sometime in the future perhaps to come and interview some of the people who are here. Prabhupāda: Come and see, he's the president, he can see you. He's the more command. You can see him. Mike Robinson: That would be possible if sometime I could just spend the day up here and talk to some... Prabhupāda: You can live here comfortably, yes. Jayatīrtha: If you like, you can spend the whole day with us, you can stay overnight, we have a guest room, very comfortable. Prabhupāda: Yesterday George Harrison came, he stayed with me for whole day. Mike Robinson: Sorry? Devotees: George Harrison came. Mike Robinson: Yes, I know, I'd like to have met the two of you together. It should have been very nice. Prabhupāda: He came yesterday and lived with us the whole day. He has given us this house, George Harrison, yes. Mike Robinson: Actually, it's very good, isn't it. It's a lovely house, isn't it. Jayatīrtha: Very nice house. Mike Robinson: How do you find it in winter? Do you find it difficult coping then? Jayatīrtha: No. I do, because I'm from the desert, but our British boys of course appreciate it. When it gets over 75 they immediately become prostrated with the heat. Mike Robinson: Which desert are you from? Jayatīrtha: Well, from California desert. Mike Robinson: Oh, I see... Prabhupāda: I shall request you, you are young man, just try to study our philosophy. And as you are journalist, try to do some good to the people. That is your duty. Mike Robinson: Well, certainly we're trying to present both other people's views and... Prabhupāda: Don't take it as a sectarian religious system. It is very scientific understanding for spiritual life. Harikeśa: But, ah, "Beware of the undefeatable reasoning and logic of the Hare Kṛṣṇas, who will steal away your children." (laughs) Because we argue so nicely because Śrīla Prabhupāda has trained us up very perfectly, because he also is the perfect teacher of this. Therefore the students can learn that way. So when we argue people become afraid, because it makes so much sense. Prabhupāda: They accuse me, "kidnapper of children." But what is my kidnapping method? The young men, they understand philosophy. What I can do, kidnap them? I have no money, I have no strength. Mike Robinson: But it exists purely as a charity, isn't that correct? Hari-śauri: Yes, purely nonprofit. Mike Robinson: Which must make it difficult sometimes, doesn't it? Harikeśa: No, it's done out of love. So it is not at all difficult. Mike Robinson: I see. Jayatīrtha: No one requires any payment. The only payment is the fulfillment that they are experiencing. Mike Robinson: But how about the electricity board and people like that? I mean, where do you get the money? Jayatīrtha: Kṛṣṇa gives us the money. Prabhupāda: Yes, we have no scarcity of money. We are selling our books daily, sixty thousand dollars' worth. So we have got sufficient income to maintain the whole institute. Jayatīrtha: No one takes any personal benefit. All the money is used for the furtherance of our principles. *Prabhupāda: Besides that, when we require a nice house, somebody gives. Just like George has given us. Similarly, we have got many houses. One boy, his name is Alfred Ford, he's the great*-grandson of Mr. Ford, Henry Ford. He has given us two, three very nice properties. So the money, there is no scarcity, and Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. If Kṛṣṇa dictates "Give him this," he'll give, that's all. And that is being happening actually. Within ten years nobody can expect to construct a house like this in a city like London. Is it possible? Even if he is a very big businessman. Not only one, there are so many. It is all Kṛṣṇa's mercy. (kirtana in background) Mike Robinson: I don't know. Cost a lot, wouldn't it. Is this worship that's taking place downstairs? Harikeśa: Yes, go down and see. Prabhupāda: You can see the Deity, yes, go and see. Mike Robinson: Thank you very much, pleasure to meet you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Mike Robinson leaves) [break] Hari-śauri: Actually he was quite intelligent, he was asking good questions because he was following the conversation. He was better than most of the interviewers, anyway. You're very expert. (laughter) You capture them and then you guide what they're going to say. It's perfect. Harikeśa: I was noticing that, that when you finish speaking with somebody, although he's bewildered, all of a sudden he understands, and he becomes amazed. I mean that happens with me also. It's just, it's the most fantastic technique. You're so patient. Hari-śauri: Like that man from the Associated Press. You forced him to stay on those two analogies until he understood. For ten minutes you explained that, the car and the driver, until it finally got through to him. Then when he finally had some realization of it, then you again gave him another analogy about breaking the bricks in the prison. And again you forced him to stay on the same subject matter. And he..., you do it in such a way that they think that they're asking very good questions from their own intelligence. Actually, you've already captured them. Harikeśa: It's like taming wild animals. The perfect animal trainer. (laughing) Prabhupāda: He said that breaking the bricks is the business. I said the sooner you give up this, then you are happy. Karmīs, the karmīs want this, breaking the bricks. They think this is civilization. Brick, more brick, and bring more bricks and break it. That is civilization. Hari-śauri: And then when we tell them that this is not your business, they ask us, "Why aren't you breaking bricks?" Prabhupāda: You are punished. You are being punished in this way. Actually, I saw in New York, big, big building, they are breaking, again, another skyscraper. "No, I have business. Breaking the bricks," that's all. They think this is very good business. Once constructed, again break it. As child, children, they make a sand house and break it again. This is the occupation. Harikeśa: But there's nothing else to do for them. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difficulty. Now see, there is no soul. Why no soul? How foolish it is. "We believe." You believe something nonsense, it has to be accepted? Where is the difference of analogy? Harikeśa: (laughs) They have to give up. Prabhupāda: Analogy, the more the points of similarities are there, it is perfect. That is the logical conclusion. Everything is there similar, why you should deny the other? How rascaldom it is. Common sense. Hari-śauri: He was a little bit confused because first of all you quoted śāstra, said everything was from śāstra. Then again you said "Forget the śāstra; this is logic." (laughter) He couldn't figure out how they both came into play. And then at the end you said that religion is logic. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is religion. If you have to accept the supreme authority, then as soon as you violate you are punishable. Very common sense. *Hari-śauri: It's because they're so conditioned by this man*-made religion. They think that the scriptures they read is something that's made up. Prabhupāda: Therefore they change. Hari-śauri: Yes, it's a belief that's... Prabhupāda: Whatever they are suitable, they make. But he cannot control over the supreme controller. They have no brain. And they are going on under the name of religion. Just see. All these rascals. Therefore they're all cheating. If you believe in the supreme controller, how you can change whimsically the law given by the supreme controller? Hari-śauri: If you actually know God, then... Prabhupāda: : Yes, that means it is fictitious. You don't believe in God. Harikeśa: We have to get you on every radio in the world, Prabhupāda. We just have to put you on the radio everywhere. Prabhupāda: You do it, I give you the ideas. Harikeśa: Oh, everything you say is so wonderful. We have to put you on the radio. These people, they have no idea. Prabhupāda: No, thing is that I say all these things because I always think of this. I always think. Hari-śauri: If you don't forget Kṛṣṇa, then... Prabhupāda: Yes, you always think how to talk with these demonic people. Then Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence. Hari-śauri: This is the most difficult welfare work. Harikeśa: They don't want it. Prabhupāda: Not difficult, it is easiest. But this rascal will not take the easiest. Hari-śauri: That's the difficulty. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They have made it difficult. Accept the supreme controller, everything is clear. Accept the father, everything is clear. There is mother, there is children, no father. How rascal they have made. How it can be? No experience, and still they will persist, "No father." Can you show me the father? What is nonsense, if you do not see the father, it does not mean that there is no father? Father must be there. You may not have seen, that is different thing. And you can see the father because the father is maintaining the family order. Therefore there is father. From this simple analogy. Just like father gives money in the hand of the mother and she maintains the children comforts. Similarly, whatever comforts we are getting, from the nature's gift, you say that is arrangement of the father. Mayādhyakṣena prakṛtiḥ sūyate sacarācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Clearly said. Father gives order, "Nature, do this way, do this way. He's disobeying, then punish him like this, that's all. Don't give him anything. Punish him." Just like nature is not supplying water. The order of Kṛṣṇa, "Let them suffer for some time." This is going on. You cannot check it, father's order. Common sense. How they can deny the supreme father? Dull*-headed fools. Mūḍha. Any fruits you have got? Hari-śauri: We have some grapes. Shall I get them? Prabhupāda: Grapes, sometimes they are sour. What other? Hari-śauri: Pears, apples, bananas, watermelon. Prabhupāda: Banana is very good. And give me apples. Hari-śauri: Pear also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: I'll try the grapes. If they are not sour, I'll bring some. Prabhupāda: So you keep that.... [break] They are opening hospital for giving medicine to the shirt and coat, and where is the man's medicine? Washing the shirt and coat, laundry work. They do not know that the man within the shirt and coat requires different treatment, different, he has got different necessities, different life. If I simply wash the shirt and coat, does it mean the man is happy? They have no common sense even. "Yes, we are supplying petrol to the car. It must drive." "Well, sir, to give good to the driver who will drive?" "Doesn't require, petrol is there." That's all. This is their intelligence. They are supplying petrol. Will the driver eat, drink petrol? They have no knowledge. He requires spiritual food. And these rascals, they do not know it. They'll say that petrol is sufficient both for the car and the driver. This is their intelligence. Harikeśa: They are always maddened by lusty desires. *Prabhupāda: Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Very, very risky civilization. Keeping the whole human society in darkness. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. By material adjustment they are thinking that "Everything we will enjoy."(?) There are two different things, matter and spirit. The spirit requires spiritual food. (sound of water pouring, scraping noise, cracking noises) Harikeśa: ...this is going to go. Prabhupāda: Keep in the right place. Keep.... Yes. They are thinking like it is another religious system, like Christianity. So.... If they are so fools, they are giving up one system and coming to another system? Why they should come at all? There is no necessity. And what advantage I am giving. Harikeśa: In fact, quite a few disadvantages. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Harikeśa: You say we cannot eat meat, have sex life. Be right back. (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 27, 1976, London Prabhupāda: He is so rich(?) man. He cannot get nice food even, the primary necessity. Getting jaundice. Jayatīrtha: The main reason why he doesn't.... I think he got jaundice because, he admitted, is that he had Ravi Shankar's brother cooking for him. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: He had Kumar Shankar, the brother of Ravi Shankar, cooking for him. So this man is a demon; therefore he is becoming sick. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they are all drunkards, all third*-class men, fourth-class men, low-class men. In India, this naṭas, they are third class, fourth class. Naṭas means the artist class, singer, dancers. They are meant for the fourth-class, fifth-class men. It was never taken by the.... They are called, and they will expertly sing, dance, in some festival. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they were not doing. Still in India there is a class, very expert in dancing, singing, low class. Their hereditary business is like that. Bhagavān: So you have given everything. You have given all the structure. We have to present it rightly. *Prabhupāda: Even, say, hundred years ago, that Girish Chandra Ghosh, he wanted to introduce theatrical performances, imitating the European theatrical performances, man and woman taking part. So he wanted to invite woman artist. Not a single woman joined. Who will go to public stage to dance, respectable girl? They'll never. That is hundred years. I am speaking, say, about forty years ago. In one of our Dayanika(?) men, the girl was to be married, and it is the custom in India*-the bridegroom's party comes to see the girl, whether she is right. Similarly, the girl's party goes to see the.... So they came to see one of my friend's daughter, and the daughter is very beautiful, rich man's daughter. So one of the bridegroom's party questioned, "You know how to dance?" That was the question to the girl: "You have learned something about dancing and singing?" So she was my friend's daughter, my, that friend, Mukunda Mati. His elder brother was there. He became very angry, that "This rascal is asking our daughter whether she knows dancing and singing." She took it as.... He took it as insult, that "Respectable family, daughter should learn how to dance, how to sing?" So immediately he protested, "No, no, no, she does not know how to dance, how to sing. She's not meant for that purpose. We like, of course, a young girl dancing and singing, but we cannot teach our family members. We spend for that outside. You cannot expect our Mullik's family daughter dancing and singing. No. He is well, good(?)." Actually that is.... Dancing? Singing? What is this nonsense? For a respectable family? It is meant for the low-class professional. Pay them, they will dance. Or go to some prostitute. She will dance. So he said that "We have got some taste for dancing, but not that our family members should do that. We pay for that outside." So this art.... And among the theatrical, Girish Chandra Ghosh could not get a single response from any respectable family. Then he had to seek some young girl from the prostitute class. They became later on famous artists, Kusumakali Dāsī, this Dāsī.... Nowadays it has become a fashion that aristocratic family should join this cinema and spoil their character. Otherwise it was meant for the.... No respectable man.... You find the Bhāgavata description, especially for the brāhmaṇas, the professional who would come. They'll take their reward. Bhagavān: This class is very influential today. This cinema artist, performer. Whenever there's a Presidential race... *Prabhupāda: Just like George. What is his value? He's artist, that's all. From educational point of view, from things other view, he does not know anything. But he has got some money on account of his artistic play on it(?), and he's big man, that's all. Somehow or other get money, you become a big man. There is no question of culture or anything. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. The money will be the criterion*-no family, culture, education. These things will not be taken into account. If you have got money, then you are big man. Never mind what you are. Therefore people are after money. Who is going to be brāhmaṇa? If you become a perfect brāhmaṇa, who will care for you? Nobody is interested to become a brāhmaṇa. "Why we shall become brāhmaṇa? Starve? For starvation?" Nowadays the colleges, they're not interested in art, philosophy, English literature. No, they.... Nobody.... They go for technical, how they will get more money. They do not want. Some of the doctor, professor, they came to request us to give our student. They are not getting student. And after few years they'll be all dismissed. Who will pay them? Hayagriva told me. He's not getting any job. There is another, Mr., Dr. Henderson. He's also not getting any job. He's selling insurance. And Bon Mahārāja, his institute is suffering from the very beginning till now, simply begging, begging and paying, paying the professor. No student. First of all he started Vaiṣṇava philosophy, so doctorate, Ph.D. So especially in India, who is going to take Ph.D. in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and starve? So this is failure. It is already failure, but he is persistent. Bhagavān: Therefore people are very surprised we are not starving. Prabhupāda: Why we shall starve? Bhagavān: We are not starving. Prabhupāda: We are, rather, inviting, "Come here. Live comfortably. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then what is the difference between Kṛṣṇa's state and ordinary state? When I see so many young boys are taking prasādam, I become so happy that they are having prasādam and good chance for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. They are living in the best house. Bhagavān: Even the churches, they are not feeding people like this. They have so much money. Prabhupāda: They do not know whose money, how to spend it. Bokāloka. In the evening I took that watermelon juice? That created havoc whole night. I think so. So for breakfast you can prepare that soup, the little. Just put vegetable soup. Hari-śauri: Nothing else? No fruits? Prabhupāda: You can keep, if I like I can take. But vegetable soup. Hari-śauri: What time would you like breakfast? Prabhupāda: Half past seven, eight. We are publishing one book, Dialectic Spiritualism. What is that? Jayatīrtha: Harikeśa Mahārāja's book. Bhagavān: No, no. Another one Prabhupāda's spoke, the philosophy book. Jayatīrtha: Oh, the philosophy book will be called Dialectic Spiritualism? Ah, very good title. Hari-śauri: A Vedic View of Western Philosophy. Jayatīrtha: Very good title. *Prabhupāda: That's a fact. If one actually interested in real philosophy, they must come to spiritualism. Ātma*-tattvam. That is ātma-tattvam. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. So long they do not come to this platform of understanding ātma-tattva, whatever rascal they are doing, simply defeat, that's all. Parābhava. Simply frustration and defeat. This very word, parābhava, means defeat. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ. Why he's defeated? Abodha-jātaḥ. Because by birth he's a rascal. Abodha-jātaḥ. And this will continue yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. So long he's not enlightened to inquire about spirit and the science of spirit, he'll remain in that, that, what is called, defeat position or conquered position. So we have to now increase our scope. Everything we have got. And if you don't come to this platform, ātma-tattva, then your all attempt will be defeat. You are already defeated, frustrated, simply struggling, that's all. Either take the capitalist or communist, who has conquered? Everyone is defeated. One party may be proud that "We have been victorious." What victory you have got? What is the victory? Not that the communist countries, they are all happy. This is not the fact. Then where is your victory? Simply beating the drum that they have got victory, victory? "We have gone to moon planet. We have gone to Mars." Cheating innocent public. Is that victory? The girls are working that side? No. Hari-śauri: No, they won't come for another half hour yet. Jayatīrtha: They can come earlier if you like. They can come any time you like. Prabhupāda: No...No, I have no objection. What is that? They'll work that side; I'll sit down here. Jayatīrtha: They should come now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Our program is solid, but if we have to argue with animals, that is a different thing. Otherwise any human being, they will accept. But the modern civilization means to keep the people in general in animal platform, that's all, and cheat them. Bhagavān: Most of the people who..., they are becoming attracted to this communist philosophy. They have no idea how to practically apply it. All they are saying is "It is an opportunity to take from the rich and give me to enjoy." But they are not seeing any scope of community cooperation. This is all impractical. They are saying, "I will get money from my boss. I will take his wealth and distribute." They are simply materialists. Prabhupāda: "That also distribute for me. More share for me." (laughs) Now there is drought; there is no rain. What the capitalists or communists can do in this connection? If they are able to present any program how to counteract? Then where is your progress? When there is some calamity, you both of you simply (indistinct). That's all. You cannot do anything. Then where is your progress? Hari-śauri: The reason why the Russians were buying wheat from America... Prabhupāda: Yes? Hari-śauri: ...was because they had no rain. All their crops failed. Jayatīrtha: Not only that, people aren't inclined to work very hard. The farmers are not very enthusiastic to work very hard, because they work very hard, but they have to give all the fruit away. So because they are karmīs, they want the fruit. The state is taking the fruit; therefore they don't want to work. Prabhupāda: Why they shall work? Jayatīrtha: They have no incentive. Prabhupāda: "I'll work and you'll enjoy." Why shall they work? That is natural tendency. This can be possible only for Kṛṣṇa. "I'll work; Kṛṣṇa will enjoy." That's all. That is only possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jayatīrtha: That's a fact. Therefore it's the only practical communism. *Prabhupāda: "I shall fight, give my all best, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied." So that.... Arjuna for his personal, he did not..., decline, but when he saw that "Kṛṣṇa wants it? All right." That is kṛṣṇa*-prema. "Never mind I shall be aggrieved by killing my kinsmen, but Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. That's all right." This is Kṛṣṇa philosophy. We cannot find this philosophy in the material world that "I shall work, and so many will be satisfied." That is not possible. "If I work, I must be satisfied." So these communists, they will work according to.... Everyone will show that "I have no capacity." So the production will reduce. And they'll have to beg. Jayatīrtha: They've had to introduce capitalistic type incentives in many of the communist countries in order to induce the people to work. Prabhupāda: Not capitalistic. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. They'll have to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa, and for Kṛṣṇa, they are prepared to do anything. That is philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. That is first class, Vaiṣṇava. Yenātmā suprasīdati. Who knows this verse? Find out this verse. *Bhagavān: Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo [SB 1.2.6]. First Canto. "The first*-class occupation is that which brings love of God. When uninterested, unmotivated, it brings satisfaction." Prabhupāda: Yes. Who will understand this philosophy? Harikeśa: "The supreme occupation, dharma, for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self." Prabhupāda: So the communist teaching that "You love Lenin," and the capitalist teaching that "You love Washington," so nobody's satisfied. Unless the love comes to Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of satisfied. Jayatīrtha: There's no reciprocation. Prabhupāda: Anyway, there must be defect because the love is reposed in some defective or imperfect personality. It may be Lenin or it may be Washington. It doesn't matter. He's imperfect. Love is there. Otherwise why so many people are working? But because it is misplaced, they are not satisfied. Therefore it is stated, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Adhokṣaje, this word, is used. God.... They may say that "Where is God?" And therefore the word is adhokṣaje: "beyond your sense perception." Everything is within sense perception. So therefore this very word is used, that "You cannot see, you cannot perceive, but still, you have to love Him." Adhokṣaje. They say, therefore, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is some ideal, imagination, Kṛṣṇa. They think.... They say, I have an imaginary form of Kṛṣṇa, a stone, and "Unnecessarily they are wasting their time, loving Kṛṣṇa." What is their theory? You know that? Harikeśa: Some people think. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are some. They are not all. Even they criticize that "You cannot see Kṛṣṇa." So similar argument can be, "You do not see Lenin. Why you are worshiping?" That's it. "Is Lenin present before you? So why you are worshiping?" You'll see. You have got, in Moscow got, every street corner a big picture. Harikeśa: They're trying to replace everybody's desire to worship some greater authority. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, but if you or somebody argues, "Where is Lenin? You are.... Why you are worshiping? You cannot see Lenin..." Because they say, "Where is your Kṛṣṇa? You are worshiping a statue," so we can say the same thing, "Where is your Lenin? The statue, it is?" In the airport station, street crossing and everywhere there is picture. And they go to worship Lenin's tomb every day. Many other fools also go there, tourists, that Red Square. They tried in India for Jawaharlal Nehru's tomb, for Gandhi's tomb. So in the beginning there was little crowd. Now nobody goes. But Vṛndāvana, Govindaji's temple, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple? Without invitation-crowd. This is culture. (loud chanting begins in background) Bhagavān: Marx, he has written only little book, and you have written so many books. Prabhupāda: What does he know, he'll write? What does he know that he will write? He can bluff people for.... That's all. Here is Vyasadeva, vidvān. So You have found? Read it. Harikeśa: "The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned Vyasadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth." Prabhupāda: So here is vidvān, and there is a rascal. He does not know how people will be helped. Where you got these beads? Bhagavān: Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Purchased? Bhagavān: Someone gave them as gift, tulasī. Prabhupāda: In Hawaii there are so many tulasīs dry wood. We can make those. Bhagavān: In our preaching this is good point, that we do not alienate the communists and stress on the differences between us and them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: That can come later. *Prabhupāda: But they see practically that "We are theorizing while they're practically doing." So expand this farming project, self*-help and peaceful life for spiritual culture. I saw that Philadelphia farm is better organized than all others. Jayatīrtha: Yes, in Pennsylvania they have the best farm. It is the best farm. When they bought it, it already had all this equipment and best flat farmland, whereas New Vrindaban, they have such a... Prabhupāda: Hilly. Jayatīrtha: Hilly, and the place was originally not very nice. Everything is built from scratch. Hari-śauri: The management in New Vrindaban is a lot more difficult as well, because they've tried to avoid machinery, so the whole concept of farming without any complicated machinery... Prabhupāda: But they have got so many machine. In New Vrindaban there are so many machinery. Hari-śauri: Not so much tractors and things though. They've been trying to concentrate with just oxen and things like that, so it's taken a while to develop the whole concept, whereas in Pennsylvania they're using so many machines. Prabhupāda: No, we are not producing various things(?). Jayatīrtha: In our Vancouver farm, because we had machinery, we were able to put more land under cultivation in the first year than they had in New Vrindaban after so many years. They were very efficient. Bhagavān: Thing is, we should not become dependent on machine. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: This unemployment is to their discredit. In the karmis' society the unemployment is a great discredit, now people sitting idle. Prabhupāda: There will be great catastrophe. The unemployment will increase, and people will be very dissatisfied with the.... Especially the black. They will create havoc. This is artificial. They are increasing the production of tire tube and lid. So who will purchase? Nobody lives in the tire tube. Therefore unemployment. So therefore reduce production. You cannot go on increasing. You very much trade this tire tube and so many artificial.... It is very artificial civilization. If you produce.... [break] Here so far milk and food grains are concerned, whatever sumptuously you want to eat, eat. Balance you can keep stock. The milk can be converted into ghee, then keep stock, and the grains can be stocked. Whenever you like, you just grind the grains and have to eat, halava. Bhagavān: It's very ecstatic. Prabhupāda: If you have got excess, you can distribute free prasadam. "Come on." You make friends. *Bhagavān: You gave one argument before about this meat*-eating. You say, "If you want to eat meat, that is all right. Why you don't wait until the animal dies naturally?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: "He's going to die one day. So you wait. Now, in the meantime, you can eat cats and dogs." Jayatīrtha: While waiting for the cows to die. Prabhupāda: Yes, cats and dogs they are eating. Yes. Hong Kong. they are eating. Who said that one gentleman came to Hong Kong hotel? Eh? Hari-śauri: One of the devotees in America. Some man came with his pet dog. So in America they tie up the dogs outside the restaurant, so he did that and he went in. And then he pointed, he showed the doorman his dog, meaning that he was liable to look after him. So after he'd eaten his meal he went out and his dog was gone. So after some inquiry they found out that when he showed the doorman the dog, he misunderstood and thought that he wanted to eat it, that he was bringing his lunch with him, so he took the dog and killed it and served him. He ate his dog. Jayatīrtha: A local policeman said that in England there are more laws protecting the dogs than there are protecting the children. If you beat your children, then no problem. If you beat your dog, immediately they'll come arrest you. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Jayatīrtha: Yes. Bhagavān: I've seen in India, they are bringing foreign dogs. Jayatīrtha: Even that one gosvāmī in Vṛndāvana, he has got French dogs. *Prabhupāda: That poodles. He's rascal. And such a fool, "Jagat*-guru." So you go. Jayatīrtha: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Arrival Speech-*-July 28, 1976, Paris (begins in car) *Bhagavān: ...devotees came, and we carried Jagannātha around the land. It was very blazing hot, and we stopped at one point to read Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, the part where Lord Caitanya is going in front of the Ratha cart. And thunder came and lightning, and it started to rain. [break] (lecture:) *Prabhupāda: Kṣetra*-jñākhya tathā para. Avidyā karma saṅgaḥ anya tṛtiya śaktir iśyate. Viṣṇu-śakti, Viṣṇu, the supreme controller, all-pervading Godhead, Viṣṇu, He and His potency, viṣṇu-śakti parā proktaḥ, both of them are transcendental. (someone translates into French throughout) So the Viṣṇu-śakti potency is one. Another reflection of the Viṣṇu-śakti is karma-saṅga anya, that is, you have to work. That is called tṛtiya, the third, karma-saṅga, where you have to work. The idea is that original Viṣṇu potency, you haven't got to work. Everything is supplied automatically. And the avidyā karma-saṅga anya, and the other reflection or perverted reflection, is this material world. Just like you have recited this verse, cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam [Bs. 5.29]. In the spiritual world the trees are desire tree-means whatever we want, we can get-whereas in this material world, trees are not like that, they are limited potency. The cows there, unlimited potency. Surabhī means you can milk out as many times as you like, and as much as you like. So the idea is the spiritual world means there is no need of endeavoring for getting anything; everything is there automatically. And the material world, we have got experience, for everything we have to work so hard, then we can get something. So actually this material world is perverted reflection. Just like this body, without the spirit soul, it is useless; *similarly, this material world, even if there is no spiritual touch, it is useless. So the more you spiritualize the whole atmosphere, the more you become sufficient and happy. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose. People cannot understand it. They think that "These people are not working, simply chanting and dancing and eating." But that is our business. (laughter) Without working, we can have everything sufficiently. So stick to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are already advanced. That is my request. Don't deviate. You'll have never any want. That's a fact. It is not my invention, it is the statement of Kṛṣṇa. Teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham [Bg. 9.22]. Nityabhiyukta, those who are constantly engaged in Kṛṣṇa business, whatever they want, Kṛṣṇa is personally interested to supply it. So without any hesitation, stick to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything will be amply supplied. Whatever you need, that will be supplied, and whatever you have got already, that will be given protection. Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham [Bg. 9.22]. Not that we shall be indolent and lazy. No. We shall utilize our energy for giving service to Kṛṣṇa. That actually we are engaged. We are not lazy. Every one of us is engaged in some sort of service for Kṛṣṇa. So that is my request, that I am now getting old, and that you stick to this principle, and you'll remain always happy. I think this is for the fourth time I have come here? So I find you very happy. Continue, and whenever I shall come, I shall see you happy. Thank you very much. (end) *Arrival at Farm-*-July 29, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm) Bhagavān: Most are at the farm, waiting. Here there is about sixty; the rest are there. They told me that after I told them that you might not come, the next morning at maṅgala ārtik no one was dancing. Prabhupāda: (laughs) I know that. Therefore I come in this old age to encourage the devotees. (coughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. Bhagavān: There is nice water here, from the source, we have a source. Prabhupāda: From? Bhagavān: There is a source, a natural spring not far from here, and people take there water. Prabhupāda: You all bring all drinking water from there? Bhagavān: No, yours. (pause) Here, we are an hour ahead. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhagavān: One hour ahead, 12:20. We have bitter melon and all fruits and vegetables, everything. Prabhupāda: Who will cook? Bhagavān: We have Mandakini? Prabhupāda: Mandakini has not cooked very nice last... *Bhagavān: There is Aditi, there is... The wife of Hari*-vilāsa, she cooked for you before. Prabhupāda: All right, she can cook. Bhagavān: What is bitter melon? Prabhupāda: Bitter melon, you teach them how to do it. Bhagavān: Samosa? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily, simple prepare nice dahl, nice rice, vegetables, some bitter melon, and two, three capatis, that's all. Not cumbrous. Must be well cooked, rice. That's all. Bhagavān: Mung dahl is all right? Mung dahl? Prabhupāda: Mung dahl, yes. Bhagavān: Mung dahl. Prabhupāda: It boils nicely? Any dahl which boils nicely, that's all right. Without being boiled, it is useless. (long pause) Is it working or not? (referring to the bell) Devotee: We tried it yesterday, it was working. Prabhupāda: I don't think it is working. Hari-śauri: It's not working. French devotee: Yesterday we tried everything. It was working, I know. Prabhupāda: Is there any buzzing? Is there any buzzing? No. (coughing) (devotees fix the bell) Bhagavān: Where is that lota for Prabhupāda? Harikeśa: I told them two o'clock their time, which is one o'clock your time from London, because there's a compromise of..., in between the two, and in that way it would adjust. I also told them not to make anything fancy but to make very simple. Prabhupāda: Who? They will not be able. *Harikeśa: Hari*-vilāsa's wife? Parijāta? Prabhupāda: Oh, she's,... Harikeśa: She's here. Prabhupāda: All right. Harikeśa: So I explained to her, and Arundhatī's going to show her the cooker and everything, so... Prabhupāda: Arundhatī cannot. She cannot. Harikeśa: No, she's not so... She knows the mechanics of it, but the details are difficult. When we get to the farm there is a separate kitchen, and every spare minute I will be with him and just teach him everything in great detail. [break] (lecture:) Prabhupāda: So I am very glad to see you again in this village. Devotees: Haribol! *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. It was the prediction of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu that in every village, in every town on the surface of the globe, there will be preaching of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's name and the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra. It is to be translated? (translator translates into French) So by your transcendental endeavor it is being fulfilled, otherwise who expected that in this remote village of France, Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra would be chanted? When Caitanya Mahāprabhu said in every village, in every town, he did not mean that every village and every town in India. He specifically says pṛthivīte, means on the surface of the globe. So the purpose is that without spreading of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, nobody can become happy. That's a fact. The opportunity of human form of life is systematcially being refused by the modern civilization. This material activity only for the bodily comforts of life, that is not human civilization. Human civilization means the human being must know the supreme controller and the aim of life. The real fact is that God is there, the supreme controller, and we, living entities, we are His parts and parcels. As parts and parcels of God, we, being separated, we are suffering. An example can be given in this connection, just like a small child is the part and parcel of the body of the mother. So the child is happy when the child is on the lap of the mother. That means the part and the whole must live together. Then there is happiness. Otherwise, there is distress. The modern godless civilization is making the part and the whole separated. Therefore the whole condition is chaotic. You have got experience in your this part of the globe, within fifty years there have been two big, big wars and... Many other parts also. People are not in happiness on account of godlessness. So actually if we want to be happy in this life and the next life, then we must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And it is not at all difficult: simply chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So I am very glad that you are accustomed to chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Stick to it and you'll all be happy. Thank you very much. [break] Bhagavān: These are all smelling flowers. They're very sweet, like gardenia. Prabhupāda: Oh, developed(?) in our garden. Bhagavān: No, we bought. These we cannot grow. We bought these special. Prabhupāda: You have got a greenhouse? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: Still you cannot grow? Bhagavān: It was too late, we started too late. Prabhupāda: Last time I stayed in this room? Bhagavān: No, you stayed in another room. You stayed in my office. This is silk wallpaper. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhagavān: Saffron. Prabhupāda: Organize this center very nicely. So many people will be happy. Bhagavān: The devotees are very ecstatic. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes, there was no hope for my coming. Now I've come, they must be. (laughter) Sunshine will stay at least up to noon, huh? Bhagavān: No, till five o'clock. Prabhupāda: Acchā? Bhagavān: Yes. It is going like this. It goes from this room into your room. All day long it is lit. They said it was hot in this room until six o'clock last night, very hot. If you'd like, I can show you how to use some things in the bathroom. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: All the taps, they are the same. The red here, this is hot. All you do is lift up. [break] And the cows are also coming here, you can see later. These are all big oak trees, they are very nice. Prabhupāda: Harikeśa, have you came here? Harikeśa: Yes. Bhagavān: All the marble, I had it made in Italy especially for you. This is all lotus flower carving they have done. And the bookshelves also. Prabhupāda: This also marble? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh! Bhagavān: Everything is designed for Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So I can use this closet? Bhagavān: All these are closets. These are many pillows, if people come, they can sit. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Very nice, so you can keep here. [break] Hari-śauri: It's coming in a few minutes. Have to order that. Tapioca. Prabhupāda: Is there any store near here? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not immediately. Just or you have got barley powder? Bhagavān: They are getting this morning. They are taking it to get ground. Prabhupāda: Immediately, there is no stock? Bhagavān: No. Prabhupāda: This desire to serve guru is the qualification. Yasya deve para bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau. In the spiritual life, this is the secret of success. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā... In many places. Our Gauḍīya Matha people, those who were leaders, they wanted to supersede the order of Guru Mahārāja. Therefore it was failure. Very, very nice. Bhagavān: They have painted that nice picture. It's special board. Prabhupāda: All books are here? *Bhagavān: Oh, yes. Some are missing from the Seventh Canto, but most are here. Here is Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. And if you have books you need, they can go down here, your reference books. I got you this little box here if you want to keep anything special. They used to make things for the princes. This is comfortable seat? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Very good. Bhagavān: Table is close enough? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, everything is comfortable. These stones are not available in India. Maybe very costly. Italian. Bhagavān: This is from Portugal. The white is from Italy. They have put the different marbles together, very expert. Prabhupāda: Combination. Bhagavān: They have also made your Vyāsasana. Prabhupāda: That one. So this side, marble is cheaper? Bhagavān: Yes, it's very..., it's not expensive. Prabhupāda: Oh. They have done very nice this furniture. We cannot expect this furniture in India. They may make, but it will be very costly. (coughs) You bring one spittoon. Prabhupāda: How many devotees are there? Bhagavān: Hundred and fifty. Prabhupāda: Very good. They are all happy? Bhagavān: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Let them come and work little, grow food, eat and chant. Why should they bother going to the factory, running at five o'clock? Horrible life, horrible civilization? Motor accident, delayed, anxiety, "Oh, I am delayed, I am delayed." What is this civilization? Bhagavān: He is taking over there, you take here? Prabhupāda: All right, I shall begin there. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya. (end) *Morning Walk Around Farm-*-July 31, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm) Prabhupāda: You have so much land to cultivate here. Devotee (1): ...they produce a type of nut. Prabhupāda: Who eats that? Devotee (1): We can eat. We roast in the oven, it is very good, offer it to the Deities. Prabhupāda: [break].... A small potato, in the śukta you gave it? Harikeśa: No, that was radish. Devotee (1): See from the garden many tomatoes and squash. Cauliflower is coming also. Prabhupāda: [break] ...a large stock of water. Devotee (1): Yes. There is lots of water underground, but it requires great equipment to bring it up in order to water all the land. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Devotee (1): We have only the previous pump which was here before, and it's not strong enough to water everything. So we need to install a new pump to get more water. Prabhupāda: This land ours? Hari-śauri: Yes. Where that hump is on the brown field, up to that, where that tree is. Most of our land extends this way. Bhagavān: Our land is mostly here. Devotee (1): We have just taken barley from this field, Śrīla Prabhupāda, many grains. Devotee (2): This is some, some buckwheat barley. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...Castle? Devotee (1): This is what they call a water castle. The water goes up and there's a big reservoir, and then by pressure it distributes to the houses. Prabhupāda: So it is not being used? Devotee (1): Oh, yes. [break] ...where we grow most of the flowers for the Deities. Prabhupāda: Oh, that greenhouse. That's a greenhouse? Bhagavān: We have built that this year. Hari-śauri: How many cows? Devotee (1): We have three milking cows and four that will be milking. We're experimenting with different types of cows, the Brown Swiss. Prabhupāda: [break] Thank you. [break] ...You have got? Devotee (2): One. Prabhupāda: What does it do? Devotee (2): Pulling the loads, heavy loads. Bhagavān: [break].... It's too narrow here right now, Prabhupāda will be going in.... [break] Devotee (1): Yes, the trees also is our forest. Hari-śauri: These are nice paths for walking, very open. Bhagavān: This way we have to go. Prabhupāda: Why they congesting the city in this, such light? [break] ...very nicely, people may seek out. Thank you. All right. (laughter) Hari-śauri: He was going to give him a flower, and then just as Prabhupāda reached out he took it back. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break].... to capture him. (cow bells) He's very young? Devotee (1): One year. Prabhupāda: Bull Devotee (1): Cow. Bhagavān: This here, and the vegetable garden is up here. Devotee (2): This is mung dahl, Śrīla Prabhupāda, mung dahl. And these are marigolds. We put them in the greenhouse because it gives a longer season. Then we'll have more flowers for the garlands for the Deities. Bhagavān: These are all table grapes. Devotee (1): They are melons, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You can see here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hari-śauri: There are melons also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (2): Here are flowers. This is a heater for the winter to keep the temperature up. We try to grow tomatoes for the Deities in the winter. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Room Conversation-*-July 31, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm) *Prabhupāda: Organize it and keep hundreds of books. They will live peacefully. But don't entangle in sinful activities. Then it will be all right. Such a nice place. The city residents cannot imagine. What a nonsense life*-clubs, slaughterhouse, gambling places, drinking house. This is like hell. Try to save people from this hellish condition of life, without any knowledge, like animals. And nature therefore creates a wholesale slaughterhouse in war, to cut throat all-finished. Many millions and millions are finished. From 1914 to 1950, how many years? *Harikeśa: Thirty*-six. *Prabhupāda: Within thirty*-six years there were two big wars, slaughter. Especially Europe. Nature will create. Pestilence. Somewhere there is pestilence, somewhere there is war, somewhere there is scarcity of food. But you cannot indulge in sinful activities. Then you'll be killed. Then nature's law will act. You may defy, that's your business, but nature will act in her own way. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot surpass. That is not possible. But they are foolish, they are trying to conquer over nature by their so-called scientific knowledge. They are such a rascal. You change the color of this fruit and flower, conquer over nature. So rascal, they talk rascal, "It will take millions of years." We have to wait million. "Yes, from chemical we shall bring life. Wait million of years." This is going on. And for such thing, big building, laboratory, research, scientific research. Big, big signboard. And the students out of disappointment, going to the roof and falling down, committing suicide. I saw it? Harikeśa: Berkeley. Prabhupāda: Berkeley. Very horrible condition. Let them do whatever they like, you live apart from them. Live peacefully in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Be happy. Let these cats and dogs go to hell; *what can be done? We are trying to educate them as far as possible, but if they do not take it, that is their business. We are doing our duty, going door to door, "Read these books. If you like, you can come and live with us." What we can do more? We do not make any condition, that if you live with us you have to fulfill. Of course, the condition is that you should not act sinfully. That is the first condition. But we never say that you have to pay so many dollars. Come. Whatever little food we have got, we shall share. So try to understand the importance of this movement. Kṛṣṇa is giving us. This is a first*-class place. You can develop it into a Vaikuṇṭha. It is already Vaikuṇṭha, Kṛṣṇa is there. But develop it very nicely, peacefully live. Hundreds of miles away from the hellish cities. For little conveyance we can have bullock carts, when we have to get, transport. Very peaceful life. Introduce it and live peacefully. Am I right or wrong? Devotee: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: These farming projects therefore I introduced, New Vrindaban, it is successful; Philadelphia, it is going on nicely; New Orleans; here also. In London we haven't got much land, but still we have got sufficient land. (pause) So if we have to go by jet plane on Saturday, then we shall get down Iran. Harikeśa: We were just deciding whether.... I think it's easier in Geneva, because the airport is only fifteen minutes from the temple. Prabhupāda: Where? Harikeśa: In Geneva. The temple and the airport are very close, and there's a direct plane on Friday from Geneva to Bombay. Prabhupāda: Oh. How many hours? Harikeśa: About seven. Prabhupāda: That's nice, that is also nice. Harikeśa: So we're just going to decide after this which is exactly the best thing to do. Prabhupāda: That is also nice. Which day the...? Harikeśa: The airplane is on Friday. Prabhupāda: Friday, that is also. Harer nāma, harer nāma [Ādi 17.21]. Everyone is happy, the children, the woman. They don't demand anything, that "Give us this, give us that." They have simplified, automatically they have simplified their life. And gradually develop, make little cottages, grow little vegetable, little barley or wheat and milk. That is sufficient. We don't require much. We don't want luxury. We want just to subsist. Yavad artha prayojana. We hate the idea of luxury, unnecessary. Do the outsider come to see? Yes? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: What do they say? Bhagavān: They are impressed with how much we have done. Prabhupāda: They will be more and more impressed. What is this city life? In Paris, simply to fulfill the necessities of life, a professional prostitute, so many. And people from all over the world, they come here for indulge in prostitute. From our childhood we know. What a civilization they have made. Spoiling the life. Then, after finish this life, you just become a cat, a dog, or a tree and stand up. And all other planets are vacant. Simply this planet is filled up, overpopulation. Kill them. Why not send there? So vacant land. (laughter) "That we cannot do." Then what is your scientific research? "Yes, we are trying. Wait millions of years." (laughter) These bluffing rascals. Don't be misled. Live peacefully here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: If you like, we can set up for the film now. Prabhupāda: Now I have given the ideas, the philosophy, in the books. So it is your business to develop all over the world. You are very intelligent, Europeans and Americans. Give it a shape, for the world prosperity. Give it a practical.... It is practical. There is no difficulty. So much land. Very good fertile land in Africa, Australia, in America. All of them can be utilized for the happiness of the whole world. The portal(?) has come or not? Yogeśvara: I haven't seen any new devotees come from London, so probably not. *Harikeśa: No, it was air*-freighted, it's sitting in the Paris airport. Yogeśvara: It is? How do you know? Harikeśa: Portal's in Paris airport, no? Hari-śauri: Well, it was there at ten o'clock this morning. Did they pick it up? Prabhupāda: That don't mind labor. You try to grow portal here. You have got greenhouse. Devotee: Some bitter melons. Some karelā melons. *Prabhupāda: Everything. Bījaṁ māṁ sarva*-bhūtānām [Bg. 7.10]. The pitā is there. Properly put it into the womb of mother earth. That is the process. Bījaṁ māṁ sarva-bhūtānām. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. (film projector comes on) Bhagavān: Last year's European tour. Devotee: This is the City Hall in Geneva, Switzerland. Devotee: After you spoke with the mayor in Geneva, Śrīla Prabhupāda, he was worried about the economy of the country, when you explained if we cultivated grains there will be no problem. Yogeśvara: "If people become devotees of Kṛṣṇa, then who will work?" Prabhupāda: What was answer? Hari-śauri: What answer did you give? Yogeśvara: Do you remember the answer Śrīla Prabhupāda gave? Devotee: Prabhupāda said we work for cultivating grains. All living entities to live together peacefully. (projector goes off) Prabhupāda: Very good. Bhagavān: You have done something very extraordinary. Prabhupāda: Therefore I was explaining our ecstasy. (laughter) Who will feel that ecstasy? That is not possible. They can lecture only. No ecstasy. Here is ecstasy, that is the difference. Ecstasy means immediately on the spiritual platform. (end) *Bhūgarbha: Many scholars are appreciating more and more. And on the University of Edmonton, in Alberta, Canada, Dr. Radhakrishna, he was a linguist, professor of linguistics, he's a very pious man, and he is writing a book with some other professor in the Religion department on the comparative study of bhakti in the Indian tradition and the Hebrew tradition. And he's using your books as his only source for the Indian tradition. So he ordered not only one set of all the books, but two sets of all your books. Three sets actually. He ordered one set of Bhāgavatams for his own personal library, then he ordered two sets for the University library, one for the reference section and one for the general section. So he ordered three sets. And when his book comes out, in the back they have a bibliography section, references, he will give reference to all your books. He's writing..., he was writing this book about bhakti, and he said "What is a good definition of bhakti for the Indian tradition?" So I showed him Nectar of Devotion, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Brs. 1.1.11]. He said that is very good, and he wrote it down and put it in his book. Prabhupāda: Till now, they took bhakti as a matter of sentiment. Religious science they did not know, all over the world. Bhūgarbha: He said he's trying to show that by studying bhakti in Indian tradition and also in Hebrew tradition, he's... *Prabhupāda: Bhakti is not achieved by studying. Bhakti stage is achieved by practice. That is the special significance of our institution, that we are engaging our men in practicing. Therefore they are getting knowledge*-not by reading. Bhūgarbha: He was saying there are certain social and economic conditions that need to be present before bhakti can come about. Prabhupāda: Bhakti can solve everything, social, economical, cultural, religious, everything. So Dr. Joseph saw all my books? *Bhūgarbha: Every one he saw. We showed him some... He was very happy to see the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Yes, I offered him the post of editing. Bhūgarbha: Now he's sorry. Now he's simply sitting in debt(?). Prabhupāda: But he did not say no. He wanted to do conveniently. Then I thought, it will not be... (coughs). "When he will return, he'll do it." That is not possible. Bhūgarbha: He gave me some of his books that he wrote, he gave me some to read. And actually the English in your books is much better than his books, so better he's not editing. It's coming out better. Prabhupāda: No, he's not a good English scholar. Bhūgarbha: Actually, he speaks perfect French also. And he got his Ph.D. from the University of Paris. Prabhupāda: Paris or Dutch as well. Bhūgarbha: He's been every place. He went to, in Paris he got in the Sorbonne and also in Pondicherry they have one French Institute, and there he got his Ph.D. And also in Holland there is one very important... So by his letters we can, many people will take our books. Prabhupāda: No, he's undoubtedly very great Sanskrit scholar. He had written some book how to make the sacred thread, like that. How many knots should be there, how many... (laughter) Smārta brāhmaṇa. *Bhūgarbha: Now he's written another book to show how his line is changing. His latest book was about the five chapters of the Dasama*-skanda, which is the rasa-līlā. That is his book now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhūgarbha: So he's changing smārta, now he's turned different. Prabhupāda: No, he has no training in bhakti. *Bhūgarbha: He said one nice thing. He said that without Jīva Gosvāmī's Ṣaṭ*-sandarbhas there's no question of understanding Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhūgarbha: He made that statement. Prabhupāda: I met him when he was in Delhi once. Bhūgarbha: We were very inspired in Delhi, that almost every college we went to, they already had your three books, and the librarians, they would remember. We would ask them "When did you get these books?" They'd think, "Well, about ten, twelve years ago, some sannyāsī came. We purchased." Prabhupāda: So they remembered. Bhūgarbha: They were (indistinct). Prabhupāda: So now they took others? Bhūgarbha: Now... We said that "You've begun; *this is only the beginning. You cannot have incomplete set." They said "Yes, we cannot have incomplete," so they took the rest. And also that man, that Sastri, the Ministry of Education? That man Mr. Sastri, in the Ministry of Education, the Rātrī of Sanskrit*-samsad, he bought fifty copies? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhūgarbha: He's also taken fifty standing orders now to complete wherever he is. Prabhupāda: He is still there? Bhūgarbha: No, he has shifted now, he's in Darbhanga.(?) But his successor, he's taken, we just made copy, it is printed in your *Bhāgavatam*. So he made true copy on some paper, and he has two copies of the last order, and this is the balance of his subscription, so he should take. Prabhupāda: That is Education Ministry. Bhūgarbha: They're only giving the Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: They can take at least fifty copies of each. Bhūgarbha: So he's doing that now. Prabhupāda: They gave me order, I dispatched by post, and if the acknowledgement received, I submitted my bill, they paid. Bhūgarbha: We're going to find the list of which universities you sent to, because we only found..., not that many. Prabhupāda: That will be a waste.(?) (laughter) So many things I did not keep record. Bhūgarbha: Even in Poona, they had, the Deccan College in Poona. They also had, we sent to them also. They also ordered balance. Prabhupāda: In Bombay also I supplied to so many colleges. And the Public Library. Bhūgarbha: That Royal Asiatic Society. Prabhupāda: Āccha. Bhūgarbha: In Bombay they purchase all the books. We had to do a little negotiation with them, but they purchased everything. Then the Calcutta Asiatic Society, they wrote us a letter, they said that "These books are the best," the letter came like that, "but that we have no funds to purchase, so can you please send us free of charge." Prabhupāda: They have no funds? Asiatic? Bhūgarbha: They say like that. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Nowadays people are not interested in cultural societies. They are simply for belly. How to earn money, that's all. Śūdra mentality. The brāhmaṇa mentality is gone. In America also. People are not joining cultural classes of philosophy. Hayagrīva said that he has no job because nobody's taking English as literary study. Nobody's interested. They are taking to technology. Bhūgarbha: Science. Prabhupāda: Science means how to make the motorcar wheel, that's all. This is their science. Bhūgarbha: In America, the professors complain to us. When we try to sell them personal books, they should take books themselves, they say that the salary of a college professor in America is the same as the salary of a waiter in some hotel. That is the respect they are given. Prabhupāda: Sometimes they are called churchmouse. Churchmouse. A mouse in the church, what he'll eat? He's in a householder's place, a mouse is there, he can eat something. But church, nobody's eating there. Simply dust, that's all. (laughter) Churchmouse. Any new mail? Harikeśa: Stacks of it. Quite a lot. Prabhupāda: Oh. Where from? Harikeśa: Want to go over it now? Shall we go over everything now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Jyotirmāyī is outside, and Yogeśvara. We can have them come in? Prabhupāda: Just fix on the light. Bhagavān: Is now the right time to ask? She has some questions on Gurukula. Is now okay? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Harikeśa: They haven't come as yet. Bhagavān: Yogeśvara has just come back from Italy. Prabhupāda: What is the news, Italy? *Yogeśvara: They've finished the preparation for the printing of the French edition of Kṛṣṇa book and Śrī Upadeśāmṛta and the Italian Bhagavad*-gītā, and they should be ready within the next ten days. Prabhupāda: French language. *Bhagavān: And Italian Bhagavad*-gītā is done. Prabhupāda: What is the political position of the Fascists and Communists? Yogeśvara: Very mixed up. Bhagavān: They are called Christian Democrats. Prabhupāda: They can manufacture so many. Fertile brain in the tract of deserted world. This world is desert, and they have got fertile brain. They call? The fertile land in the deserted land, in the desert, is called oasis. So similarly, these rascals, they have got fertile brain in the world of desert, where there is no happiness. But they have got fertile brain, how to manufacture happiness. And māyā kicks on their face and baffles everything. This is the illusion. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā [Bg. 7.14]. They, the world is desert, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15], but they have got fertile brain, how to become happy. And as soon as they make some arrangement, kicks on his face and he falls down. That's all. What do you think? Is it right? Sometimes you have got fertile brain. (laughter) This fertile brain, he will not accept. He'll be kicked out. Everything will be finished. If you want to be happy, then you have to go back home, back to Kṛṣṇa. That is the only way. Otherwise, your fertile brain will... What do you think, Jyotirmāyī? You are intelligent. Jyotirmāyī: I came to ask you some questions for the Gurukula, because now if I don't ask them today... Prabhupāda: So Gurukula means, find out that chapter, brahmacārī gurukule. Hari-śauri: Seven, Two. Prabhupāda: Vasan dānto guror hitam. The beginning of life is how to become cent percent obedient to guru. That is Gurukula. That training should be given. The whole process is that our life will be successful when we strictly follow guru and Kṛṣṇa. Guru means Kṛṣṇa; *Kṛṣṇa means guru. Not Māyāvāda, but guru means one who follows Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. Sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. So guru is directly God, sākṣād-hari. Sākṣād means directly. So sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas **, in every śāstra it is said the guru is one, Kṛṣṇa. So, it is stated in the śāstra and it is accepted by authorities. Not that it is simply stated. Samasta-śāstrair, uktas. You understand little Sanskrit? *Jyotirmāyī: Some verses from Bhagavad*-gītā. *Prabhupāda: Huh? Ukta, ukta means "said." And sadbhiḥ, "by great personalities." Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas **, tathā, and "accordingly," tathā means "accordingly," bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ, those who are actually in transcendental platform, they should accept it. So why? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva... It does not mean Māyāvādī, that he has become God. But kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya, he is the most confidential servant. He's therefore servant-God. He's God, servant-God. God is master-God. Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. So why he has become priya? That is, Kṛṣṇa says personally, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ: [Bg. 18.69] nobody is dearer than him in the whole world. Why? Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidā... [Bg 18.68]. "Who preaches this gospel of Bhagavad-gītā among My devotees." So the guru has got two business. He has to make devotees and teach them the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore he's so dear. Not that he has become God, not Māyāvādī philosophy. He's living entity, but because he acts very confidentially on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, therefore he's as good as God. This is bhakti. Not the Māyāvādī philosophy that guru has become God. Guru as God, not become. He's servant-God. And Kṛṣṇa is master-God. So the success is that both the Gods, when one is accepted by both the Gods, then his life is success. Guru*-kṛṣṇa kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Therefore one has to fix his faith staunchly in the bona fide guru. So if one has got bona fide guru, and if he follows that bona fide guru, then his life is success. This is the process. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair **. So Gurukula means to teach how to become very, very faithful, cent percent faithful, to the bona fide guru. That is Gurukula. So you have to teach like that. By behavior, by life, by action. That is Gurukula. This sum and substance of... Brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānto guror hitam. Where is that? Harikeśa: We don't have the book. Prabhupāda: What you have got? Simply your face, that's all. I'll have to see your face. Why this book is not there? Hari-śauri: It's Seven, Three. There was only your copies available at the moment, and we gave it to George Harrison. Prabhupāda: And you could not secure any more. Hari-śauri: The only other copy is in New York. Prabhupāda: Any other Bhāgavata? Just see. Reference book must be always there. This is the principle of Gurukula. Now from this platform, on this understanding you have to organize. *Jyotirmāyī: You were saying that there are mainly three principles to learn: how to be obedient, how to know, read your books and be self*-controlled. So that's what I explained to the teachers, that they should do that. *Prabhupāda: Guru says there are four principles to be followed, they should be taught in that way. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating, no intoxication. Guru says that you chant at least sixteen, that should be taught. Risen early, rise early in the morning, that should be taught. So whatever guru says, you have to teach them perfectly, from childhood; *then there will be no deviation when they are grown*-up. Jyotirmāyī: We have them chant now down there. When they chant japa, they chant very enthusiastically. So the teacher himself chants... *Prabhupāda: No, no. According to age, according to... But this is the principle. Gurukula means to learn how to become obedient, self-controlled, and act on behalf of guru. This is Gurukula. Not to learn grammar very scholarly, grammarian. No, that is not Gurukula. There are many thousands scholars*-who cares for them? Put in the life. That is important. Our movement has drawn the attention of the world on account of life and the knowledge. They are finding the knowledge in the book and they are finding the practical application in the life. That is the important thing. Books there are many, but the books as they are described, they are being followed. That is Gurukula. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Guror hitam. So, a brahmacārī, a brahmacārī should live in the Gurukula for the following purposes. The first is that he should be trained up how to control the senses. So that, if you teach, any child from the childhood, he'll be trained up. In that case, that female children should be separated. Jyotirmāyī: I wanted to know also what should we do once they are sixteen, because you said they should be trained in a Gurukula until they are sixteen. So once they are sixteen... *Prabhupāda: Once Sarasvatī said that "We have no sex with woman." (laughter) So, innocent, she does not know. That is, if they are kept separate, they remain innocent. And they are taught that all women should be addressed as mother. Whatever self-control. And female children should be taught how to become faithful to the husband, and to learn the arts of cooking, arts of painting*-that should be their subject matter. Jyotirmāyī: Painting? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sixty*-four arts, Rādhārāṇī did. Then She could control Kṛṣṇa. Jyotirmāyī: So after they have learned all the academics, reading, writing, all these. Prabhupāda: Academic is ordinary, ABCD, that's all. Not very much. But these arts. They should learn how to cook nicely. Jyotirmāyī: And what should the boys be taught from ten to sixteen? *Prabhupāda: The principle is same, that when they grow up they learn the śāstra. The more they read, the more they learn. Then they become preacher, teacher. The grown*-up children, those who are fifteen, sixteen, they can teach five-, six-years-old. Jyotirmāyī: Then they can take responsibility themselves. Prabhupāda: In this way. Elderly student... That is the way of Indian teaching, that there is one teacher, and how he's managing hundreds? That means there are groups. One who is elderly student, he's taking some beginners: "Write a or A like this." That he can teach. What he has learned, he can teach. Similarly, next group, next group. So in this way, one teacher can manage hundreds of students of different categories. This is organization. Not that everything I have to do. I cannot teach anybody to do it. That is not intelligence. Intelligence is that employ others to help you. That is intelligence. Not that "Oh, I was busy, I could not do it." Why? What about your assistant? Train assistant so that in your absence things can be done. So the elderly students, they could be... Just Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do that. When He was sixteen years old he could argue with Keśava Kāśmīrī, because He was practiced. In this way, stage after stage, everyone should be expert. Everyone should be teacher and student. Bhagavān: The boys, they should learn how also to cook? *Prabhupāda: Huh? I never said that. Why you are bringing that question? I said the girls should be. Cooking is not boy's business. But cooking is not a very difficult art. If they want, the boys can... (coughs) There are so many, in the Bhakti*-rasāmṛta sindhu it is stated, how Rādhārāṇī was qualified. So these things should be taught to the girls. If the girls are taught to give service to the husband to the greatest satisfaction, there will be no disagreement. Yogeśvara: Can the older boys be trained in a particular kind of devotional service? For example, press work? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, everything is devotional. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam [SB 7.5.23], there are varieties. We are not Māyāvādī, impersonalists, finished, all business. It is not like that. So whatever business is going on in our movement, everything should be taught according to the capacity, boys or girls, it doesn't matter. Some department is suitable for the boys, some department are suitable for the girls. In this way, they should be trained up. But everyone should be trained up to give service. That is Gurukula. And brahmacārī, this sex impulse should be controlled. That ruins the whole character. Our big, big sannyāsīs are becoming victimized. So that is the danger. Woman is good, man is good; *when they combine together, bad. This is the material world. Both of them are good, but when they combine together, they are bad. This is material world. In the spiritual world, there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore it is always good. Everyone is part and parcel of God. So they are good. In the spiritual world, they combine together, it becomes bad, in the material world. In the spiritual world there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore they are always good. So you have to train like that. In the spiritual world there are very, very beautiful women, thousand, thousands times. Here, in the heavenly planets, they are calculated the best perfectional body of the woman. But in the spiritual world, still further. But there is no attraction of sex. They are working together, serving together, everything. But the sex attraction, there is no. They are elevated so much in the service of the Lord.... Sex attraction is a kind of pleasure. So there are different types of pleasure. Here, if somebody, good foodstuff is there, and.... That is also another sense pleasure, and by the time one beautiful woman is canvassing, "Now, come and let us enjoy," he will give up this good food. He'll go for sex. Because he will think this is better than that. So one pleasure is rejected if one is engaged in better pleasure. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. So in the spiritual world the service of the Lord is so pleasing, that they can neglect this sex pleasure. That is spiritual world. They have no attachment for sex pleasure. Yadāvadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāmānudyata bata nārī-saṅgame bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭu. When one spits on the sex pleasure, that means he is elevated in spiritual life. So in the material world that is not possible. But by training, by knowledge, one can be elevated. That is Gurukula. So these are the general principles. Now arrange. Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking about that, that because the girls are trained like brahmacārīnis also in the Gurukula, they should be also kept very, very simple, just like the little boys, brahmacārīs. Prabhupāda: No, our life is simple. We don't want luxury. We don't want luxury, but as we are accustomed in so many ways, as far as possible. But life should be very simple. To increase unnecessary things unnecessarily, that is material life. Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking in that way, simple clothes, no jewels, just like the boys, simple... *Prabhupāda: Don't say "no." But give a taste for the good, then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no" then he'll, they will rebel. The four "no's," that is very difficult. Still they are breaking. No illicit sex, they are breaking. But if they develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this will be automatically "no." So don't bring many "no's," but give them positive life. Then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," that will be a struggle. This is the psychology. Positive engagement is devotional service. So if they are attracted by devotional service, other things will be automatically "no." Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Just like Ekādaśī day. Ekādaśī day, we observe fasting. And there are many patients in the hospital, they are also fasting. But they'll "No, no." They'll, within heart, "If I get, I shall eat, I shall eat." But those who are devotee, they voluntarily "no." The same fasting is going on for the devotees and the hospital patient. And that "no" and this "no," there is difference. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. It is not meant for the mass of people, but at least if we keep a section of people ideal to the human society, they will be guided. At the present moment, there is no ideal section. Everyone is rascal, demons, rogues, everything. There is no ideal character. All politicians, scientists, leaders, they are all drunkards and woman*-hunters. So what they can lead? There is no ideal man in the society. The politicians are giving big, big speech in the United Nations. They'll go to the same hotel where another debauchee is dancing and drinking. That's all. That is his character. Is it not? So what he will do? We can give a very big speech, that's all. What is his character? There is no ideal character in the present human society. Do they appreciate our, these restrictions? Bhagavān: Our restrictions? Yes, they are impressed. They sometimes write about the Gurukula that we are treating roughly the children by making them so austere. But every time they show the picture, the children are always happy. *Prabhupāda: They have standardized their happiness on these principles*-illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling. That is the standard. And if you deny that, they say, "Oh, it is impossible. These are the primary principles of life." Yes. Such a big man like Rolan(?) said, he said, "Oh, it is impossible." He was a big man, philosopher, very nice gentleman; still, he said "Oh, it is impossible." Jyotirmāyī: You were saying that the children should learn these three, geography and these things, and I wanted to know if they should also learn what they call biology, that is how the body is working, what are the bones and blood and... Prabhupāda: What is the use? Jyotirmāyī: Just to have some general knowledge... Prabhupāda: Simply waste of time, simply waste of time. Jyotirmāyī: Even the basic of this? Prabhupāda: What is the basic? What you will know by that? Biology is going on, whether you study or not study. You are eating, it is transforming into blood, everyone knows. And how he's transforming into blood? What is the use? Jyotirmāyī: You were saying they should learn geography and history, just for general knowledge. Prabhupāda: That is because you have to go from America to India. You must know. (laughter) You have to calculate two plus two equal to four, a little mathematics. But this biology and this "logy," they are useless. There is no necessity. What you'll gain by understanding biology? Even one who knows biology, the medical man, he gives a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." "Perhaps." He's not sure. So what is the use? First of all, he'll take one ounce of blood from you, and they send, this station, that station, now making a chart, then he'll give you a tablet, "Perhaps it may help." This is going on. Even the biggest pathologist, medical man, cannot guarantee that whatever medicine... [break] Yogeśvara: ...some group doctors? Some portion of the devotees medical knowledge? Prabhupāda: There is no harm, but when medical men are available by paying something, why should you waste your time? There are so many things we purchase, you pay for them. Not that we have to learn everything. So many things we have to do. Does it mean that you have to learn everything? Hari-śauri: There's lots of doctors, but there's no brāhmaṇas, devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the principle is, don't waste time. If one has already learned medical science, all right, bring him to some service. But not that our men have to go to the medical college to learn medical science. That is not the point. Jyotirmāyī: So because we're in the country, I was taking the children in the land here and teaching them how to recognize the different plants. Is that useful, or should I not do that? Prabhupāda: Different plants? Jyotirmāyī: Plants, yes, here we have so many different plants growing, some medical plants, some that can be eaten. Is there any use? Prabhupāda: No. Different plants, that is botanical study, that has also no utilization. But you can teach them, "Just see, this plant is coming from earth. The earth is the mother of this plant." These things you can convince them. Is it not a fact? The grass is coming, the tree is coming, and the animal eating grass. Then the animal is coming. The man is eating food grains, then man is coming. So originally the earth is the mother, feeding everyone. Is there any denial? What do you think? So earth is the mother of all living entities, convince them. So all living entities are children. Mother earth is the mother. The father? Where is father, find out. Everyone has got idea, father, mother and children. Children are there. The mother is there. Where is the father? If somebody says "I have not seen father; *how can I recognize father?" that does not mean... Because the mother is there, because the children are there, there must be father. If you do not know, try to know it from your mother, from your superior. From Veda*-mātā. You have to know from the Vedas. Bhagavān: So at that young age they can very easily develop faith in Kṛṣṇa and guru. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā. Jyotirmāyī: I also thought of a way to help the children remember the Kṛṣṇa book stories easier. It was... You started that long time ago with Madhupuri, you asked her to make the Kṛṣṇa book into a poem. That was a long time ago in New York, then she didn't do it... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa book is not difficult to be understood by... Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking if we make into poem and put music and they sing it, then they can remember... Prabhupāda: That you can do, to make it understandable easily. It is already easy. If you want to make more easy, then do that. Jyotirmāyī: Okay. You also allowed... You said that some parents can keep their children with them and teach themselves. *Prabhupāda: You follow that, brahmacārī gurukula, that I've already explained. That should be done. Don't bring any new thing, imported ideas. That will not be helpful. It will be encumbrance. "My experiment with truth"*-Gandhi's movement. Truth is truth. "Experiment" means you do not know what is truth. It is a way of life, everything is stated there, try to train them. Simple thing. We are not going to teach biology or chemistry. They are not going to... Our students are not going to... Our students should be fit for teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By their character, by their behavior, by their knowledge, that is wanted. Biology, chemists, physicists, and mathematician there are hundreds and thousands. We are not going to waste our time that Gurukula should produce a great grammarian, a great geologist, biologist, don't want that. There are many other educational institutions. If you can get a good driver of your car, so what is the use of wasting your time to learn driving? Is it not? If you have got important business, you can do that. Why should you waste your time to learn driving? Better employ one driver, pay him some fare. Harikeśa: You once said in Vṛndāvana that the Marwaris, they don't bother going to school because they can make a lot of money by sitting by the phone and just pay a few rupees a day and any educated fool can do the work. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they do that. They are employing in their factory, big, big chemist, big, big physicist, engineer and so on, but they do not bother. They are paying thirty thousand rupees per month salary, Birla. Expert, imported from foreign country, but their sons are never troubled. They know how to utilize that worker of thirty thousand rupees per month and to earn thirty lakhs from him. Why shall he waste his time? He knows how to they earn. They pay a man thirty thousand and through him earn thirty lakhs. Actually, in order to make a balanced society, the varṇāśrama*-dharma is very important, cooperation. So these things are meant for the śūdras, and brāhmaṇas are not meant for this. Devotee (1): You once told me that a brāhmaṇa must know how to do everything perfectly so that he can teach others. *Prabhupāda: That may be, you may be a teacher, but you'll remain only a worker. That is another thing. Just like Dronācārya, he taught, he remained a teacher. So we can become a teacher of a particular subject matter, but that does not mean you should be worker. Still, there are many professors, they are teacher, they are not worker. But if the teachers are available, why you should become a teacher? Let them teach. We have to save our time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. After all, this, in the modern world they have invented so many varieties of occupations unnecessarily, to develop economic condition. Is it not? But our philosophy is that you cannot develop your economic condition than you are destined to suffer or enjoy. So one should not waste his time for so*-called development of economic condition. He should utilize his time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which was not possible in any other form of life. When we had cat's and dog's life, tree's life, we could not do that, development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now we have got human form of life, we should fully utilize it for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why should we waste our time for economic development? Economic development is not possible. Then every work, every city, they are trying to develop this economic condition, but they're struggling. Why they word it of "struggle for existence" is there? It is not possible. Why there are varieties of social position? Everyone could come on the same standard. That is not possible. Anywhere you go, the three classes of men, upper class, middle class and lower class, is there. Is there any country where there is not these three classes, only the upper class? Is there any country? Then what is the use? Anywhere you'll go, you'll find this upper class, middle class and lower class. In the beginning, I thought that America, everyone is richer class. So when I came I saw the three classes are already there. The lower class, although the country has good facilities not to become lower class, still, voluntarily they are hippies, lower class. They are lying on the street. Although he has got very good opportunity to become first class, but he is lying on the street. Why? What is answer? British Empire, London, one is lying on the bench. New York, lying on the bench. There is no sufficient clothing? Why? Actually, he can live very comfortably, but why he's living in that condition? What is answer? Harikeśa: It's his nature. *Prabhupāda: No, he has to live in that way. That is his destiny. You cannot change it by artificial ways. Even if he has got all the facilities, he will have to live like that. That is nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅgo 'sya sad*-asad janma yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. This is... So therefore there is no use of so-called improvement. And you cannot do it. This is a fact. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovido. Find out this verse. Na labhyate yad bhramatām upary. Your standard of happiness and distress must be there because you are destined by the laws of nature. You have to suffer although you are born in America. In New York you can get very comfortable life there; *still, you have lie down on the bench, lie down. Although you are born of a rich man's family, you have to become hippies, lie down here. Who can check this? What is that law. Do they know it? But there is a law. There will be a first class, second class, third class, fourth class. You cannot check it. Huh? New York City? So cared for? Nasty road, streets. And always, every moment*-dung dung dung dung dung dung dung dung, gu gu gu gu gu gu gu-fire. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka **. Fire is blazing. Despite all arrangement, fire is blazing. How can you stop it? Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said saṁsāra-biṣānale, dibaniśi hiya jvale. The blazing fire of poison is always going on. Taribāre nā kāinu upāya. And one has to make ways how to get out of this fire. That is intelligence. Read that. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is philosophy. What is the purport? *Harikeśa: "Every man everywhere is trying to obtain the greatest amount of sense enjoyment by various endeavors. Some of them are busy engaged in trade, industry, economic development, political supremacy, etc., and some of them are engaged in fruitive work to become happy in the next life by attaining higher planets. It is said that in the moon the inhabitants are fit for greater sense enjoyment by drinking soma*-rasa, and the Pitrloka is obtained by good charitable work. So there are various programs for sense enjoyment, either during this life or in the life after death." *Prabhupāda: Such a pleasing planet, and these rascals say there is no life. The moon is described everywhere, the most pleasing planet. Actually, when there is moon in the sky, how it is pleasing. So that planet is meant for the high*-class pious persons, and they get their life for ten thousands of years. They live very comfortably, drink soma-rasa. These are the descriptions we get from śāstra. And these rascals say it is desert. And we have to believe them. And practically we see how pleasing it is. As soon as the moon planet is there, the whole atmosphere becomes pleasing. And it is desert. And we have to believe these rascal scientists and disregard the description of the śāstra. What do you think? Is that very good intelligence? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: We disregard the statement of Vyāsadeva, and we have to accept the statement of a rascal drunkard. (laughter) We are not so unfortunate. The unfortunate, they can believe that, we cannot believe. Devotee (1): Now they have published pictures of Mars. Prabhupāda: Let them do that, befool others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās [SB 7.5.31]. Because others, they are blind, this blind man, whatever he says, they believe. They will say "Perhaps ten millions of years ago there was life, perhaps." These things are going on. But we know every planet is full of living entity. There is regular life and there are streets. The streets are paved with pearls, corals, in Svargaloka. We have got information. And what is their information? Scratching some sand and bring it, that's all. As if sand is not available. But we give information there are planets where the pavements are with pearls. Go and bring some pearls. There is the ocean of milk. Bring some milk from there. And then we shall understand that you are making some research. Simply all over the universe dry sand? And here the population is increasing. Just see. We have to believe all this. Everything is by nature vacant and all people and animals are here. And we have to believe that. Hmm. Read it. They are exposing more and more about their nonsensical scientific inquiry. Harikeśa: "Some are trying to reach the moon or other planets by some mechanical arrangement, for they are very anxious to get into such planets without doing good work. But it is not to happen. By the law of the Supreme, different places are meant for different grades of living beings according to the work they might have performed. By good work only, as prescribed in the scriptures, can one obtain birth in a good family, opulence, good education and good bodily features. We see also that even in this life one obtains a good education or money or bodily beauty. Similarly, in our next birth we get such desirable positions only by good work. Otherwise it would not so happen that two persons born in the same place at the same time are seen differently placed according to the previous work. But all such material positions are not permanent. The positions in the topmost Brahmaloka and in the lowest Pātāla are also changeable according to our own work. The philosophically inclined person must not be tempted by such changeable positions. He should try to get into the permanent life of bliss and knowledge where he will not be forced to come back again to the miserable material world, either in this or that planet. Miseries and mixed happiness are two features of material life, and they are obtained in Brahmaloka and in other lokas also. They are obtained in a life of the demigods and also in the life of the dogs and hogs. The miseries and mixed happiness of all living beings are only of different degree in quality, but no one is free from the miseries of birth, death, old age and disease. Similarly everyone has his destined happiness also. No one can get more or less of these things simply by personal endeavors. Even if they are obtained, they can be lost again. One should not, therefore, waste time with these flimsy things, but one should only endeavor to go back to Godhead. That should be the mission of everyone's life." *Prabhupāda: That is our position. We should not waste a single moment for so*-called material things, happiness. Best save time and utilize it for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all? Jyotirmāyī: Yes, and just one more. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jyotirmāyī: Because you were saying that the parents can keep their children and teach them themselves, like Arundhatī is teaching Aniruddha. So does it mean that the parents can... Prabhupāda: He complained that "My boy is not being properly..." So I said that "You teach your son." Jyotirmāyī: She can keep him and teach him all the time? Until he's older and so on? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. That is the duty of the father and mother. Along with that, he can teach others also. These things are to be organized. But some way or other, our students should be given education and spiritual life, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Individually, collectively, somehow or other. The principle is laid down there, brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānto guror*-hitam. That's the beginning. Everything is there, we have to simply follow it. We haven't got to manufacture anything. That is a waste of time. Whatever is there, you follow. Is that all right? Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Devotee (1): ...silk. Prabhupāda: Thailand silk. Devotee (1): Yes. He has invited me to go to Thailand to meet the Prime Minister in October. Prabhupāda: Oh, if there is an interview, you must go. Devotee (1): Yes. Perhaps you would like to tell me on what level I should present our movement. *Prabhupāda: On the level of Bhagavad*-gītā. God is the supreme controller. And we have to learn how to remain peacefully under the supreme controller. Just like citizens and the government. Good citizenship means one who lives under the control of the government. Similarly, a good person is one who is God conscious and lives according to the instruction of God. So there is instruction of God, we are presenting this all over the world. Devotee (1): And they should give us some facilities? Prabhupāda: Yes. We want to preach. Here also, if you give us facility, we can preach. That is after your interest. Devotee (1): This one gentleman has already offered one house in Bangkok. He's put at our disposal, in the middle of the city. A very beautiful house. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is very nice. Devotee (1): But now I'm wondering how this should be managed, who should take charge of this project. Prabhupāda: No, we can send some men from India. Bangkok is not far away from India. If we get a living place, then we can find out. When there are rice thrown, the crows will come. If there is no rice, how the crows will come? This is the philosophy. (laughter) If there is living place, then many crows will come. Devotee (1): So we can first go and see the situation and then contact our men in India. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Men will be supplied from India. What is his name? Send him some thanks. Devotee (1): Yes, Mr. Bulson(?). I'll give it to you. Jaya, very nice. Prabhupāda: He's a Hong Kong man? Devotee (1): No, he is from Thailand. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Bangkok. Devotee (1): And he's a multimillionaire. He owns approximately one third of all the land in Thailand. Prabhupāda: Oh! Devotee (1): Chairman of many big businesses. Prabhupāda: You have given some books? Devotee (1): He has received books. Prabhupāda: Where you will meet him? Devotee (1): His former secretary is now a devotee in this temple, she is from Thailand. And when he came to visit her in Paris, she introduced me to him, and since then he has spoken about us to his family, to businessmen. Many big people in Thailand. Hari-śauri: People in Thailand are quite pious. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are Indian culture. Their original culture is Indian. It is called Siam. (pronounces like Śyāma) Kṛṣṇa's name. And they have got the airplane, Garuḍa. Hari-śauri: Yes. Garuḍa Airlines. Prabhupāda: So they are devotees originally, all Kṛṣṇa devotees. Devotee (1): The king is speaking Sanskrit. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It was known, it has been changed now. Formerly, it was known as Syam state, Siam. Syam is the name of Kṛṣṇa. Whole state was named under Kṛṣṇa. So, and they manufacture very nice idol of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. They're accustomed. Hari-śauri: They have a very strong Buddhist influence there now. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: Buddhist. Prabhupāda: Later on, they became Buddhist, but originally they were Vaiṣṇava. Devotee (1): So they will not make some objection if they think we are thinking we have come to preach Hinduism in a Buddhist country? Prabhupāda: It is not... Don't establish Deity. Talk on philosophy. Devotee (1): "God is the supreme controller." Prabhupāda: Yes. We accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God. Show in our books that we have got all respect for Buddha. We do not disrespect Lord Buddha, neither go against him. Anyway, if we get one house to live and a supporter, a big supporter, then our position will be secure. And if our cause is honest, then nobody can check. Devotee (1): He has said that first I should come and speak to the Prime Minister and then speak at the University, and then see the reaction, and then we can go to see the king and say that this has been the reaction at the universities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it organizedly. They understand French language? Devotee (1): Yes, English and French. They are very close to Vietnam. Prabhupāda: Very good. Take this opportunity. Devotee (1): Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end) *Morning Walk Around Grounds-*-August 2, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm) Prabhupāda: It requires much water. Then sow grains. [break] Devotee (1): This is from the previous owner, Prabhupāda. He's agreed to take the grapes away. He is simply finding another place for them. It's part of the contract we made with him that he had to move them. Prabhupāda: This land? Bhagavān: That is the proprietor's land on this side. Prabhupāda: And he does not find any land to move the grapes. Bhagavān: What was that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? He has so much land? Devotee (1): There is a law by which it's very difficult to move grapes anywhere. So he's trying to get permission from the maire to do it. [break] Bhagavān: ...built a big factory here to engage people who were socially misfit, and he was making all kinds of plastic toys. So when we moved in we suggested that he help manufacture Spiritual Sky. So now almost his whole factory is being used. Many young Indian boys who have come to France looking for something, they had no money. So he has employed them here. So they're working, they've brought their families. Prabhupāda: They're established. Bhagavān: Yes, and he's building them houses. (breaks) Prabhupāda: I think it's unusual in Europe. Bhagavān: It's like this every July and August, very sunny. During these months most people in Europe come to France. [break] ...storage house. Prabhupāda: What does he manufacture? Bhagavān: Manufactures boats and plastic things. Prabhupāda: What is box? Devotee (2): Spiritual Sky, incense boxes. Bhagavān: It's a quarry for stone. The same kind of stone that the chateau is built from. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhagavān: This is the factory here. Prabhupāda: Factory of the proprietor? The proprietor? Bhagavān: Yes, and he rents to Spiritual Sky. Devotee (3): These incense packs, we are reorganizing the stock now. Prabhupāda: Where you are selling? Devotee (3): Everywhere in France. We're doing now also Germany and also Holland and Belgium. Prabhupāda: Where it is printed? Hari-śauri: These are all from the U.S. I think. Devotee (3): No, it's from France. We started a few months ago. Everything now is organized in France. Prabhupāda: These are all essential oils? Devotee (3): Yes, this is all perfume here. We have pure sandalwood from India. It is getting very expensive now. *Devotee (2): This is our Indian package, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (4): We're changing the design on this package, we have Gopal Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: But it is nice, why you are changing it? Unnecessary spending is not... [break] ...the sticks? Devotee (3): From China. Prabhupāda: What are in these bags? Devotee (3): We're specializing in henna. Prabhupāda: Honey? Devotee (3): Henna. We're going to produce ten different coloring henna. [break] ...leaf of acacia making noncoloring hena. Prabhupāda: Where you get? Devotee (3): This is coming from India I think. But there's much acacia in France, and so we're going to pick it ourselves. This will make us a producer, which will increase our profit. Bhagavān: Spiritual Sky is paying right now almost eighty thousand dollars a year to the association here. Prabhupāda: Very good. Devotee (3): This is..., we're doing a cheaper line called Scented Garden, and the more expensive, this is for the cheaper customers. Prabhupāda: This is scent? Devotee (4): They're different. Devotee (5): This is the cheaper oil. (laughter) Devotee (3): This belongs to the previous owner of the chateau. He let us use these machines. He also helps us make very nice stands for displaying. These here are some for putting in the coloring, make them different colors. These come from India also. Prabhupāda: What is this, sand? Devotee (3): This belongs to the owner. [break] Bhagavān: It stays light until quarter to eleven here. Prabhupāda: Like Moscow also. I was there in June or July(?). Sarasvatī, you like this place? Hari-śauri: You like this place? Sarasvatī: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is this? Devotee (3): This is bath oil, putting in the bath. Sandalwood. And this is the more expensive quality. (laughter) This is actually pure sandalwood, a little diluted. Prabhupāda: Jagadiśa's son? Bhagavān: Nirmala. Hari-śauri: You want to ride in the palanquin? Prabhupāda: Yes. We can sit down on the plank... [break] Snake here? Devotee (5) : There are some, yes. Devotee (2): There's a big one in the forest. It has not got any water in it, very big. Devotees: Snake? (laughter) Bhagavān: He thought you said lake. Prabhupāda: Python? Hari-śauri: He thought you said a lake. So he said there's a big one in the forest. But you were talking about a snake. Prabhupāda: Snake, yes. There is a big snake here? (laughter) Hari-śauri: No. He was talking about a lake, for water. Bhagavān: Kirtana? Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 2, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm) Prabhupāda: Jaya. So Aniruddha, you are going to stay here? You are going to stay? That's nice. He's a big devotee. He says, "I am big devotee." So, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees and children chant in unison) (aside to Hari-śauri:) Boil with four times water. Hari-śauri: Boil? Prabhupāda: With four times water. And when it is (indistinct). Hari-śauri: All boiled down. Prabhupāda: Then squeeze it. Hari-śauri: When do you want it? Now? (chanting becomes louder and faster, clapping) Prabhupāda: (chanting ends) Come on. (children laughing) Distribute to the fathers, mothers. Give him one more, he has.... All right, give them first. Devotee (1): They came from London, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (1): They came to Paris to see you, and when they learned that you were here, they came all the way here to... *Prabhupāda: Oh, give them this garland. [break] ...he begins with surrender. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So anyone who voluntarily offers obeisances, immediately he becomes fifty percent advanced. Because.... Who is talking? This material world means nobody wants to surrender. Everyone wants to become master: "I am the monarch of all I survey." Everyone is planning how to become a master. Therefore the struggle for existence. Nobody wants to become a servant. You know very well in European history, Napoleon wanted to become the master of all Europe. Hitler wanted also. Similarly, there were so many leaders, sometimes Roman leaders, sometimes Greek leaders, sometimes French leaders, sometimes German leaders, English leader. The whole European history is full of fighting, war. The basic idea is that everyone wanted to become master. That is the material disease. We are now discussing Bali Mahārāja. He also wanted to become master of the whole universe. So that is the material disease. Actually, master is one, Kṛṣṇa. There cannot be two masters. There is only one master, that is Kṛṣṇa, or God. But in the material world, because we have forgotten the real master, every one of us is trying to become master. This is material disease. Not only in one life, but life after life. The cats and dogs, they also want to be master. The dog, if he finds another dog coming, he immediately begins barking very loudly, "Why you are coming here?" So this mastership competition is going on life after life, sometimes as human being, sometimes as animal, sometimes as fish, aquatic, sometimes as demigod, bird. This is the whole material situation. And the difficulty is that we cannot become master, but on account of our false ambition that "I shall become master," we are becoming servants of material nature. We are acting in a certain way to become master, creating a situation, mentality, and at the time of death, when this body finishes, the mind absorbed in that mastership idea takes me to another body according to my ambition, so I become again manifest in different body to exhibit my mastership. Another chapter begins. So they do not know how these subtle laws of material nature is working to give us opportunity to become master according to our idea, false idea. And we are actually suffering, sometimes as human being, sometimes as animal, sometimes as trees, sometimes as dog. So the mastership cannot be attained. That is not possible. In the false idea to become master we are becoming slaves of the laws of material nature. This is real position, and that is suffering. So when one comes to this understanding, that we are not master, we are servant, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births, if by chance one gets the association of the servant of the Lord, then he understands that he is not master, he's servant of Kṛṣṇa. And then he surrenders. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. Such great soul who has understood that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa," he's a very great soul. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Very, very rare to be found. But that is the fact. The sooner we learn that we cannot become master, we are eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, let us surrender to Kṛṣṇa and remain in our own position as servant, then it is perfection of life. Therefore one who surrenders, one who offers.... This is the beginning, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Namaskuru. Kṛṣṇa says namaskuru. Namaskuru means "Just offer your obeisances unto Me." So in the absence of.... Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, but Kṛṣṇa sends His representative. So if we begin, offer namaskuru, to the representative, it goes to Kṛṣṇa, and then gradually, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious and becomes situated in his own original consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and that is perfection of life. Thank you very much. Bhagavān: So let us pay our obeisances. (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: So what is this? Hari-śauri: What is it? (child whispers "It's a hat") It's a hat. Prabhupāda: Oh? You are just now coming? You have got, Mālatī? (speaks Hindi with Indian lady) So what is the news of Amster..., what is it? Hari-śauri: Amsterdam. Prabhupāda: Amsterdam. *Woman devotee: It is very nice. They are preparing for installation of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa on September lst, and otherwise the saṅkīrtana is distributing Bhagavad-gītās, about fifteen hundred a week. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Woman devotee: Between Holland and Belgium, they both speak the same language, so the books are distributed between these two countries. Prabhupāda: Holland and? *Woman devotee: Belgium. Parts of Belgium speaks Dutch, and the other half speak French. So in the Belgium, in the half that speaks Dutch, they are taking many Bhagavad*-gītās. Appreciating it very much. And one library, the head of all the libraries, he has taken an interest in your books. Prabhupāda: How's your father? Woman devotee (2): Um, not as well as you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Woman devotee (2): He's not as well as yourself. Prabhupāda: He's suffering? Woman devotee (2): Very much. Prabhupāda: What is the disease? Woman devotee (2): He's looking after roses in his garden. Oh, um... Prabhupāda: But your father is young man. What is his age? Woman devotee (2): He's sixty years old. *Prabhupāda: Sixty is just like my son. Yes, twenty years difference, father and son. I am eighty, so anyone who is sixty must be like my son. Of course, my first son was born when I was twenty*-four, but twenty years, there are many, father. And mother and son, twelve years, thirteen years difference, there are many. So you have come here. Very nice. Stay here. Where is your husband? Bhūgarbha is here? Bhagavān: He's in Germany. Prabhupāda: He has gone German? Bhagavān: To buy some trucks for traveling. *Prabhupāda: He's good preacher. He's now distributing books very nicely. You are also good distributor books. Huh? In the beginning she was distributing nicely. So preaching is our life. The more we preach, the more we are successful. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching. Woman devotee (1): Fifty. Prabhupāda: Building is very big? Bhagavān: Yes. Nice building. Woman devotee (1): There's two buildings, one for the gṛhasthas behind the temple, and then the āśrama for the brahmacārīs. Prabhupāda: Rented or purchased? Woman devotee (1): We own the gṛhastha āśrama, and the temple is rented. It's to our advantage to rent it, for some reason, so they are renting it. Hari-śauri: You were thinking about walking? It's about 6:15, so this would be a good time if you want to go down. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: All glories to Prabhupāda. Devotee: Haribol! (end) Prabhupāda: Hmm? You can say. Harikeśa: There are two sons? And a friend asked, one was very dark... (laughter) Prabhupāda: Indian system is, the bridegroom... So when the man went to see the girl, the father called his son, bridegroom's father, "My dear Gauracand, please come here." So he came. He was just like a black negro. And gauracānda means fair complexion. So one of the party came to see. So, "This is in your country gauracānda, so where is kālacānda, can you bring him?" So that is the respectable gentleman, and what is debauch? Harikeśa: Kālacānda means black, very black. Gaura means fair. Prabhupāda: When Gauracand was called, a black negro came. So if Kalacand is called, who will come then? (laughter) Harikeśa: There seems to be such an amazing repertoire of stories and analogies in the Bengali language, isn't there? So many. Prabhupāda: In Bengal the, just like here, so many, black mixed up with white. In Bengal and Madras, so many Dravidian have been mixed up with the Āryan. Therefore in Bengal and Madras you'll find many black. Hari-śauri: Dravidian? Prabhupāda: Dravidian culture. Dravida. They are non-Āryans. Just like these Africans, they are not Āryans. Now they are mixing up with Europeans and Americans. In India, it was, one from the higher section, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they will be fair complexion. Śūdras, black. So if a brāhmaṇa becomes black, then he's not accepted as brāhmaṇa. Kāla bahu (?). And if a śūdra becomes fair, then he's to be know that he's not pure śūdra. Although we do not take very, but, this brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, by birth, but still, we have seen, those who are coming purely from high caste family, their behavior and śūdras behavior is different. The family culture. And the spiritual culture lost, still, the family culture keeps them separate. Hari-śauri: Still, we still met a lot of people in India who are actually following the regulative principles just as a matter of social training. But they're becoming very few now. Prabhupāda: In, actually, in Bengal, Bengal has lost its original culture. In other provinces the brāhmaṇa class, they are keeping very strictly the original culture. Even a brāhmaṇa would not accept foodstuff prepared by his wife, because woman is considered śūdra. The woman, when she becomes the wife of a brāhmaṇa, then she is called brāhmaṇī, but she's not offered brahminical culture. She remains as śūdra. So therefore a strict brāhmaṇa does not accept foodstuff prepared by his wife. Still there are in U.P. The wife will arrange for cooking, and he'll sit down and cook dāl, cāpāṭis. Then he will eat, and whatever remains, that is there, that will be taken by her. But he will not take foodstuff cooked by his even wife. And if there are several brāhmaṇas, so each one of them will cook his own food. In Calcutta, mostly the rich men they used to keep the collector's darwans, they are called darwans. Means guard, policemen, guard. They're all, very big, big brāhmaṇa family, they used to take, accept the job. But each of them, even in police, I have seen, they are cooking separately. They take bath thrice, cook their own food, very strictly. The government had to give them a big hall for cooking. So, it will not take much space, say, little space. One small oven and demarcated: "This, you see, is mine, and then I, you get, this is yours, this is yours." So within that space they'll sit down and cook dāl, cāpāṭis, rice, one vegetable, and cook, and immediately all the utensils will be cleansed and washed, and the space washed and kept. You'd like to eat, they cook so nicely, although simple. And I have got practical experience, if you cook your own food, whatever it may be, it is healthy. Harikeśa: That a fact, yes. *Prabhupāda: And if you do it very carefully, then you'll never get disease. Take simple food, neat and clean, you'll not get disease. So everything depends on eating to keep the health proper. But these things can be simplified when the life is simple. If I go to work in office at this time, then so many things become topsy*-turvied. But if you depend on yourself, either as a brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya, you haven't got to depend on others, then you can do timely. Now we have to go fifty miles at least to attend office. In your country at least, this is the system. They are coming from Long Island, Liberty Island. In New York I have seen. Three, four hours to go to work. And again three, four hours to come to home. And work there eight hours. Then what is value? He's shattered. He has no other solace than wine, and he has no other culture. No family, dog friend (laughter) and television idea, that's all. What his life? Every man has got a dog friend because he has no family. Men, women, and television, engagement, I have seen it, all this, in New York. Hari-śauri: If they do go out, it's just to go and get drunk. Prabhupāda: And still, our landlord in 26 Second Avenue, if there is anything wrong in the apartment, he would personally do it. He could spare money to call a worker. He was alone. I don't think he had any dog, but he was always seeing the television, and when there was some complaint, he would come and work on it. He's landlord. And so many tenant, there is complaint always. Old house. That house was not very good, very old house. Hari-śauri: There was many stories? Prabhupāda: I think five, six stories. Hari-śauri: Oh. You just had the shop at the bottom. Prabhupāda: Bottom shop and the first floor, I took my... Harikeśa: With a garden. Prabhupāda: Not a garden, but there was some vegetables. Hari-śauri: Few plants. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not bad. For me, it was very convenient, come down immediately to my down storefront. And some boys were living in the storefront. There was a sink in the storefront, and for toilet I allowed them sometimes in my bathroom. Not some, only two or one. So he was washing my dishes also. In this way, I was living. Hari-śauri: That was Mukunda, or...? Prabhupāda: No, that was another boy. He was drunkard. (laughter) Harikeśa: Yogeśvara has many pictures of those meetings at 26 Second Avenue, with Hayagrīva with the beard and the long hair hitting this... There's pictures of all those meetings, photographs. Of Hayagrīva with the beard and long hair hitting the gong next to you. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Long hairs almost everyone. This Umāpati was also one of them. Harikeśa: He said he was eating meat up until the point you gave him the beads on the day of initiation. Prabhupāda: Hayagrīva. Harikeśa: No, Umāpati. He said then, next, from that point he gave up. Prabhupāda: Yes. They were trained up in such a way from the beginning of their life. I have seen small children they give powdered meat mixed with hot water and spoon. Is it now? What can be done? Poor child. Hari-śauri: They made them eat meat. My nephew used to refuse, so they used to force him to eat it. Prabhupāda: Just see, by nature refusing, and by force... Hari-śauri: They they develop a taste. My mother said that I used to refuse as well, but then they made me. Now I got a taste. *Prabhupāda: So in my childhood, when I was one and one*-half years old, I suffered from typhoid, and the Dr. Karttika Candra Bose, he said that he, "Please give him chicken juice." So my father refused: "No, no, we cannot." "No, no he has to be given. Now he has become very weak." "No, no, I cannot allow." "Don't mind, I shall prepare in my own house and send. You simply..." So it was sent from his house, and when it was given to me, immediately I began to vomit. And my father threw it away, and when the doctor asked that this was the... "No, no, then don't bother." This story I heard. This allopathetic system of medicine introduced all these things in India. Otherwise they did not know. Hari-śauri: What system? *Prabhupāda: This meat*-eating, chicken juice, tea, these things are unknown to India. No, why India? By nature, you say that you refused meat. Although you were born of a father and mother meat-eaters, still. What a horrible civilization they have made. He's human being born. Making him animal by culture. Instead of making him more cultured towards the spiritual life, making him redirected again to animal life. This is the civilization, Western civilization. Hari-śauri: Yes, there's not much choice, not any choice. Prabhupāda: These children are fortunate. Yesterday I was astonished how these children were receiving just like friend, laughing and something saying, you have seen it? As an old friend. Their mother pushes they would not come, but they were very glad to see me. Hari-śauri: Everybody's very glad to see you. Prabhupāda: I was astonished, that how these children take me as friend. Hari-śauri: I don't think that's too difficult. You're the best friend for everyone. Prabhupāda: No, but after all, they are children. How they can take it as it is? So they are fortunate children, and their parents and everyone should take care of them. A very difficult age. Hari-śauri: You always said they're our asset for the future. *Prabhupāda: If they can be trained up, they can become very good preacher, each one of them. And they can make hundreds of devotees. In this way we can expand. Are you realizing that there is no civilization? Actually civilization we are introducing. Except Aryan civilization, Vedic civilization, there is no civilization*-animal society. What do you think? Are you convinced about it? Harikeśa: Oh, yes, every time I walk out the door I'm convinced. And when you come back to the temple, it's marvelous, the spiritual world. No matter what going on, may be bad, may be good, doesn't matter. It's very relieving. Prabhupāda: Civilization means to push the man forward for perfection. That is civilization. Hari-śauri: Development. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Society and economic condition, everything should be so arranged that this human child should be gradually pushed for perfection of life, go back home, back to Godhead. This is civilization. And modern civilization is "Don't care for what is going to happen. So long you live, eat, drink, be merry, enjoy," that's all. Sense gratification. This is called nāstika*-vāda. Very dangerous. And that is going on all over the world. How a gentleman can live in that society? Hari-śauri: They can't. Gradually people... Prabhupāda: Therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "This is not a place for a gentleman." Formerly, therefore, they used to go away from the society, go in the forest, to give up this bad association. Live alone. *Hari-śauri: Practically speaking, that's what we've done. By your establishing these temples, it's given us someplace to go where we can get out of Kali*-yuga. Prabhupāda: Therefore our temples should be very carefully managed. It may not become again another pandemonium. *Harikeśa: Pan*-demon. Pan-demon-ium. Hari-śauri: Says that in the dictionary. Harikeśa: Place of demons. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has given us many nice places. People can live very comfortably. There will be no scarcity. Cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness very seriously. That is wanted. Therefore in this old age I am struggling so much to see that things are going on nicely. So far I have seen, it is going on nice. But maybe the management is lacking. It may be the māyā is very strong. So be careful. All, you are all old students, and try to organize more and more solidly. The children should be taken, you can give lectures to the mothers, that children should be taken care of. They are future hopes. Child is the father of man. They say that we escape. What we are escaping? We have got all types of social society. There is gṛhastha, there is sannyāsī, there is brahmacārī. Whichever position is suitable, you accept and keep yourself sincere, that's all. Unnatural there is nothing. Is there anything unnatural? And if they think that we're prohibiting this meat*-eating, this is unnatural, that we cannot. That is not unnatural, that is natural. Harikeśa: I notice these four things, they are very unnatural, these four sinful things, very unnatural. Prabhupāda: Unnatural, yes. What for smoking? What for drinking? How nicely they sit down on the ground and take prasādam. Why there is need of table, chair and these dishes and fork and knife and so on, so on? Why? Harikeśa: It's hard to cut the meat. You need a good surface. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Our Bon Mahārāja, once I was eating in his festival and... He's a bara*-sahib. So he has given fork and knife. (laughs) So I did not know, I do not remember even which way I took fork. So Bon Mahārāja began to criticize "You are going to foreign country you do not know which hand to take this fork and knife." So I told him, "I am not going to learn all these things. I am going to teach them something else, to forget it. (laughter) You went to learn all these things. But I am not going to learn anything." Harikeśa: What did he say to that? (laughter) Prabhupāda: It was our... Hari-śauri: He's following the line of Vivekananda. *Prabhupāda: Just see how rascal they are. My Guru Mahārāja every step condemned this Ramakrishna Mission and Vivekananda. He said frankly that if there are any impediments for our movement, that is this Gandhi and Vivekananda. He said frankly. Hodge*-podge. Gandhi's also hodge-podge. He was a politician, and in politics he mixed some spiritual ideas, hodge-podge. And this Vivekananda was also politician. His name was recorded in the government as "sannyāsī-politician." Because after returning from America, he began to preach to make the poor man rich, and these weak, fatty, and so on, exercise. So the government took it that he's, under the dress of a sannyāsī, he's preaching social and political upliftment. So his name was recorded as "sannyāsī-politician." And his name was also recorded, "political saint," Gandhi. After all, the British government, they were very intelligent. They could understand what is what. Otherwise, how they were managing this big empire? Very intelligent, there is no doubt about it. And actually they were intelligent. When they were managing, we were happy, actually. Nobody can deny it. Although they were exploiting. But nobody could understand. Everyone was feeling happy. And as soon as they left, everyone is unhappy. That distinction I can give evidence, I can, from my personal experience. Things were very, very nice. Calcutta, oh, it was so nice city. Now it is hell. It is same Calcutta. Why it is now hell? Hidden(?) garden, that was a nice garden. So... Everywhere hell, only hell. Calcutta was considered the nicest city in India, better than Bombay, but it has become now hell. The streets, especially those quarters in our temple. Hari-śauri: I think Calcutta was voted the second dirtiest city in the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ācchā? Just see. And it was next to London. People used to say, "In the British Empire, first London, second Calcutta." And now it is...? Hari-śauri: Second dirtiest city. Prabhupāda: And who is the first? Harikeśa: Karachi. Hari-śauri: Karachi. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Both of them got sva*-rāja, Pakistan and India. That means after getting sva-rāja..., Karachi was one of the first-class city, yes. They cannot manage. Unfit persons, they are on the top of government. Hari-śauri: Seems everything is devolving at a phenomenal rate. Every decade that passes, everything breaks down twice as fast. Just in the last twenty years or thirty years everything has become so much degraded and... *Prabhupāda: No, I have got experience. I am Calcutta born. What Calcutta was in our childhood days and what is now, I know everything. How we were happy during British days and what is now position, I can speak from my personal experience. We do not belong to the richest class nor to the poor class*-middle class. So we have got practical experience. My father's income was not more than 250 rupees. How opulent we were. At least, there was no question of need. We were receiving daily four, five guests, and my father was functioning so many festivals and he was asking... My father gave in marriage four daughters. There was no difficulty. The income was not more than 250 rupees. Of course, that 250 rupees at least ten times now. But still, there was no needy. Not very opulent, but there was no need. The first necessity is to feed and to clothe. So there was no such scarcity. May not be very luxurious life, but there was no scarcity for food and shelter or cloth. There was no scarcity. Happy. That is wanted. Happiness in whatever circumstance. Not that because we did not possess a motorcar, therefore unhappy. I purchased one motor car in 1925, Buick car. Not for personal use, but for using it as a taxi. My one nephew, he was a good driver, so my father, "Why don't you give him? He can do that, we can use it our own car also taxi." So I took it, Buick car, I think I paid eight thousand rupees. Hari-śauri: Buick? Prabhupāda: Buick, yes, very strong car. At that time, Ford, Chevrolet and Buick, these cars were very popular in India. Ford for the poorer class and Buick for the first class. Hari-śauri: Your nephew was a taxi driver. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nephew was my sister's son. We had to maintain one sister and her family. She became widow. So this is Hindu family obligation. When the daughter is widow, she comes to the father's shelter with all family. The father has to maintain. Hari-śauri: You wouldn't get that in the West. (laughs) They don't even maintain their own parents. Prabhupāda: On the whole, during British time, people were happy, that I can... The thing is that Britishers were little afraid that "If the government is not good, it will go against our credit, that we may agitate." So they were careful to see that people are happy. But here nobody's careful. Everyone thinks "I'm in my own country. Whatever I do, it is all right." They were conscious, that "We are foreigners. If the management is not good, then it will go against our credit and it will be difficult working such a big England empire." So they were little careful. But these rascals are not... Just like the governor, he was friendly, but what is the report? Did he say? Did not behave very nicely? Harikeśa: He wasn't interested to help for the tax exemption. Hari-śauri: Yes, you told me before, Bon Mahārāja and Tīrtha Mahārāja, they were writing all these big, big men, but they told them frankly, that "I'm not going to do anything for you." Prabhupāda: None of them. Formerly, a British governor, secretary, was a friend. You could get some service from him. The Britishers they knew the etiquette that if friends ask some help, I must help you. That is etiquette. *Hari-śauri: Now there's so much self*-interest, they don't... Prabhupāda: It is expected. Hari-śauri: Still, due to the British presence, isn't that the main reason why India has become so degraded now? Prabhupāda: Yes, from... Hari-śauri: Because they introduced so many bad things? Prabhupāda: Yes, from cultural point of view, they are degraded. And that was that British policy, to kill them culturally. Otherwise not possible to rule over them. Hari-śauri: They always advertised that India was so backward because that was a justification for their being there, that "We shall go and educate." Prabhupāda: They used to advertise like that. Hari-śauri: Then they could exploit and avoid criticism. Prabhupāda: Yes, so many bad things Britishers introduced. Bad things means Western type of civilization. Hari-śauri: Sometimes people, they say, we're always glorifying Indian culture, so why are they so badly off? So we tell them it's because they've give up the culture that they're badly off. Otherwise, a hundred years ago there was no problem. (end) Hari-śauri: The whole country could be like this if everybody was Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Prabhupāda: Very peacefully you can live. In the city you go, thousands of cars are running*-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror-ror. What is called? Flyway, expressway, downway, every ten yards stop for the light. (laughter) How artificial life. And with all these things, if people would have been happy, all right. But they're not happy, in spite of all this advancement. Hari-śauri: Yes. Simply increasing their miseries. Prabhupāda: That's all. Problems. Hari-śauri: The bigger the buildings, the more anxiety they're in. Prabhupāda: Not only many cars, they construct new roads, new... Increasing business, in the hope of happiness. But there is no happiness. Hari-śauri: Happiness is the last consideration. Prabhupāda: They are thinking that "In this way we shall be happy." Hari-śauri: Get more money. *Prabhupāda: First of all, paved way, then flyway, then another flyway, then another flyway, in this way. Bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. Hari-śauri: They're always striving for happiness, that's all. They never achieve it, they never get there. Prabhupāda: No. That is called māyā. Just like the animal is running after the mirage, water, but there is no water. Hari-śauri: He simply runs until he dies. Prabhupāda: That's all. This is going on. *Hari-śauri: Dogs on four wheels. (laughs) It was so nice sitting underneath the tree there, chanting. I was thinking, this is what we could do forever, twenty*-four hours. No need to do anything else. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Prospective place, this. Very future prospect. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. We're buying these big properties now, we don't have so many devotees, but we know just even in five years they're going to be packed. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Hari-śauri: Maybe now we don't have so many devotees for all these big places we're buying, but even just in five years or ten years they'll be full. We'll have to expand more and more. Your idea for fifty percent for books, fifty percent for buildings is very wonderful. I remember in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta you said that the book distribution and the establishment of temples should go parallel lines, side by side. Prabhupāda: Going on. Up to date, to my satisfaction, it is going on. Hari-śauri: If you're satisfied, then we know it's going to be successful. Prabhupāda: But they fight amongst themselves, the GBCs. Hari-śauri: Hm, that's the problem. Prabhupāda: I did not see Harikeśa. Hari-śauri: He was there. Prabhupāda: Oh, he was there? Hari-śauri: Yes. He's been feeling a bit ill today. Prabhupāda: This is thyme herbs? No. This is the seed. *Hari-śauri: Oh, them. They grow it in the garden. The first, what you got, that was grown here. Those twigs? They were grown here in the garden. Would you like anything tonight? A piece of chavana*-prash? (Harikeśa comes in) Prabhupāda: What is that? Harikeśa: This boy brought this. I wanted to just ask you if this is any good or not. This is nutmeg oil. Hari-śauri: This is the oil I was telling you about. Harikeśa: And this is Ax Brand Universal Oil, supposed to be for massages or something. Prabhupāda: Chinese? Harikeśa: (indistinct) This is Chinese. Hari-śauri: It's got different..., says menthol crystal, peppermint oil, eucalyptol oil, menthol salicilate, oil of lavender, chloroform BP, camphor powder, and white oil. Prabhupāda: What is for? Harikeśa: Supposed to be for massaging. Hari-śauri: It's supposed to help the muscles. Prabhupāda: And what is this? Hari-śauri: Nutmeg oil. This is the one I was telling you about. Prabhupāda: They're all selling all this? Hari-śauri: No, this is not ours. Harikeśa: Rādhe-Śyāma dāsa brought this. *Hari-śauri: It was brought by one of the devotees from*-Thailand, was is? *Harikeśa: He was in Kuala*-Lumpur. Hari-śauri: He says he bought it from a Buddhist temple, big Buddhist temple. *Prabhupāda: Kuala*-Lumpur? There is a big Buddhist temple I know, I went there. Harikeśa: He said in a letter, he just wrote a letter to you that... You laid a cornerstone in some temple? About three, four years ago? *Prabhupāda: Kuala*-Lumpur? Yes. Harikeśa: It's finished. It cost a million dollars. And he says this man wants to give it to us. Prabhupāda: Oh, something, that gentleman... Harikeśa: It's a rather nice letter. Prabhupāda: Written by him? Harikeśa: No, this boy who was there. I'll bring him tomorrow. Prabhupāda: So we can take it. Yes. This is nice idea. He has spent millions of dollars? Harikeśa: One million on the temple. Prabhupāda: Oh? How he got the money? Harikeśa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Maybe he was rich man. Hari-śauri: This was made in Penang. Prabhupāda: Penang also I visited. I stayed with one Indian gentleman. His wife made very nice kacuri. Hari-śauri: It doesn't matter wherever you go around the world... *Prabhupāda: They asked, "What you want to eat?" "If you can, you make first*-class kacuri." That is from my childhood. My friends also did it. They'd make the first-class kacuris in my youthhood. I am fond of kacuri. Kacuri is made first class in Mathurā. Agra and Mathurā. Very, very nice. The kacuri is being made, hundreds of customers waiting. At shops, there was many shops, waiting for purchasing. And as soon as it comes out of the pan, immediately sold. There is no question of waiting. They make spice nicest. That is India's craftsmanship. Nobody will starve. If you have no business, you prepare something palatable, and people will purchase, all over India. Hari-śauri: There's so many people on the railway station selling. *Prabhupāda: There's no question of starvation for want of money. Anywhere sit down and do something palatable, and people will purchase. So your livelihood will go on. Pakorā, kacuri, jalebi, anything. You make some palatable, people are fond of eating some palatable things. That is their hobby. In Allahabad, there was a brāhmaṇa. I had my business, and he was neighborhood, he was living. So in the morning, the husband and wife would go to take bath in the Ganges. They would very nicely take bath, and while coming they will purchase some ingredients and then come home. The husband will perform pūjā, etc., and the wife will prepare many nice preparations*-baḍā, pakori, puskar (?), this, that. Then he'll take his meals, rest awhile, and in the evening he will sit down, he was sitting just in front of my shop, about four or five o'clock. All the preparations his wife had made whole day, and the small shop. And the university students will come up to night, ten o'clock, he'll finish. Nothing will remain. Everything will be... And he'll make at least ten rupees profit, minimum. In those days, 1925, in those days ten rupees means nowadays at least fifty rupees. So, and living very happy. Living humbly as a brāhmaṇa, he was having his pūjā, going to the Ganges, taking bath, husband and wife, in the morning, and the wife's business is to prepare and his business was to sell. So they'll make at least ten, fifteen rupees profit daily, very prosperous. Living peacefully, husband and wife. There are many such families. The... If wife is very good, then his home is very nice. They cannot be unhappy at any circumstances. Dampatyoḥ kalaho nāsti tatra śrīḥ svayam āgataḥ.(?) Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. When there is full agreement between husband and wife, cooperation, then the goddess of fortune comes there without application. You haven't got to ask goddess of fortune, "Please come and help me." She'll come automatically. This is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. Hari-śauri: I wasn't there that time. Harikeśa: I remember. Prabhupāda: You were there, yes. Is that life? How they can be happy if this is the condition? So what further advancement? Harikeśa: In reference? Hari-śauri: Tehran. Harikeśa: Oh, your tickets are definitely booked on the nonstop flight. I finally managed to... Prabhupāda: Take the ticket. Oh, we have got ticket. Harikeśa: The reservation, I mean... And if for some reason we can't get on that flight, we have reservations on another flight that arrives four hours later. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Harikeśa: It changes, it leaves earlier and gets there four hours later. Was lunch all right today? Lunch? Your lunch was all right? Hari-śauri: Was lunch all right? Prasādam? Prabhupāda: The potatoes and karelā should be fried. Harikeśa: Yes, it was fried. I fried it with the cover on. Prabhupāda: No, not in the beginning. Fry it, and if it is still hard, then... Harikeśa: Then put the cover on. Oh, all right. Prabhupāda: Yes, not from beginning. Harikeśa: Oh, I made a mistake. Prabhupāda: If you cover from the beginning, the water which is already there will be coming out. And the idea is the water should be taken away. Then it will be tasteful. Still, it was good. Harikeśa: Should I cook if I still have this fever tomorrow? Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: Right now I have a fever. Prabhupāda: No, don't cook. Harikeśa: So if I have a fever I shouldn't cook for you? It's unhealthy for you? It won't bother me so much, but if it's unhealthy for you... Prabhupāda: No, no, I have no objection. But if you have got fever, why shall you? There are so many others. They can... Harikeśa: I cannot tolerate being sick any more. Prabhupāda: The body means sickness. The body itself is sickness. Harikeśa: In illusion I think I come back here, I get healthy. In illusion I think if I leave India and come here I will get healthy. But I come here I also get sick. I go there I also get sick. (laughs) You seem to be much better now. *Prabhupāda: Yes, little better. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...thinking of how to utilize the whole land. The situation is very good, good prospect. I want that self*-independent here, as far as possible. But you have got enough materials. With woods you can make cottages. Then land becomes clear, then utilize it. Bhagavān: Cows. Prabhupāda: Cows, so many things. Free from all anxieties, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Life is meant for simply chanting. This should be the motto. But because we have got this body, we have to maintain it. That much. Otherwise, we have no ambition to become a very big man in this material world, enjoy it. This is all false, useless. He'll become a big man, and one day death comes and kicks him out. So these are all false attempts. It has no meaning. The meaningful life is, so long we live, become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. And tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. That is wanted. Give facility to the people. Here is very nice arrangement. Now make plan how to utilize. You have got enough land. You can utilize for supplying the necessities of life. Bhagavān: It's a very wonderful place. Prabhupāda: Yes. We can get many wonderful places like this all over the world. But they have not been taught how to utilize them. Bhagavān: But I think in one year they have done nicely. They have built a greenhouse and planted all the cultivated land. Prabhupāda: No, they are working hard, there is no doubt about it. Bhagavān: And the temple also, Deity worship and everything. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, things are going nicely. There is no doubt about it. And children should be given that much education*-to read and write and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Bhagavān: The devotees are talking how nice it was to sit outside with you and chant and hear you speak tonight. I remember the last time I was in New Vrindaban many years ago, when I first became a devotee. You were sitting outside, giving some lecture, series of lectures on Vyāsadeva and the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I like this life, from my very childhood. And on our roof there were trees, plants, flower plants, and... My grandmother, she... We, all grandchildren used to water it. So downstairs we took water in, what is called? A jhāri? Bhagavān: Sprinkling can? Prabhupāda: Ah, sprinkling can. We all grandchildren, we were about half a dozen. So we took very much pleasure in watering. But my special tendency was that along with the plants, I, with the bushes, I'll sit down. My tendency. And I'll sit down for hours. And like that. In my childhood. In my maternal uncle's house also, I was doing that. As soon as I find some bush, I make a sitting place. Bhagavān: It's hard to see how people could not be attracted to such a nice life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: But more and more people are coming. Prabhupāda: They'll come. First of all, this life is not for every man. Most fortunate man. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. Kona, kona means someone; *it is not for everyone. Kona bhāgyavān. Find out this verse, Nineteenth Chapter, Madhya*-līlā. *Hari-śauri: Guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: This is not for everyone. *Hari-śauri: There's a nice purport. Should I read the purport? "When we speak of brahmāṇḍa, we refer to the whole universe, or to the cluster of many millions of universes. In all universes, there are innumerable planets and innumerable living entities upon those planets in the air and in the water. There are millions and trillions of living entities everywhere, and they are engaged by māyā in suffering and enjoying the results of their fruitive activity life after life. This is the position of the materially conditioned living entities. Out of many of these living entities, if one is actually fortunate (bhāgyavān), he comes in contact with a bona fide spiritual master by Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart, and if one desires something, Kṛṣṇa fulfills one's desire. If the living entity by chance or fortune comes in contact with the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and wishes to associate with that movement, Kṛṣṇa, who is situated in everyone's heart, gives him the chance to meet a bona fide spiritual master. This is called guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāda. Kṛṣṇa is prepared to bestow His mercy upon all living entities, and as soon as a living entity desires the Lord's mercy, the Lord immediately gives him an opportunity to meet a bona fide spiritual master. Such a person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master. He is helped from within by Kṛṣṇa and from without by the spiritual master. Both are prepared to help the sincere living being become free from this material bondage. How one can become this fortunate can be seen in the life of Śrīla Nārada Muni. In his previous life he was born of a maidservant. Although he was not born into a prestigious position, his mother was fortunately engaged in rendering service to some Vaiṣṇavas. When these Vaiṣṇavas were resting during the cāturmāsya period, the boy Nārada took the opportunity to engage in their service. Taking compassion upon the boy, the Vaiṣṇavas offered him the remnants of their food. By serving them and obeying their orders, the boy became the object of sympathy for the Vaiṣṇavas, and, by the Vaiṣṇavas' unknown mercy, he gradually became a pure devotee. In the next life he was Nārada Muni, the most exalted of Vaiṣṇavas and the most important guru and ācārya of Vaiṣṇavas. Following in the footsteps of Nārada Muni, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is rendering service to humanity by giving everyone a chance to come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. If one is fortunate, he becomes intimately related with this movement. Then, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one's life becomes successful. Everyone has dormant kṛṣṇa-bhakti, love for Kṛṣṇa, and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in Caitanya-caritāmṛta: Prabhupāda: Then? Then? No, it is not finished? Next verse? Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: The classes should be regularly held. Those who are engaged in the field work, then let them work, but woman or others, they should hear in the class. They should attend. Bhagavān: There is regular class for everyone in the afternoon after prasādam. Prabhupāda: That's nice. What they are saying now? (kīrtana heard from downstairs) Bhagavān: Downstairs? "Haribol." People cannot understand how just by chanting enthusiastic kīrtana so many problems can be solved. Prabhupāda: Yes. What they understand, all rascals? Wasting time. Going to the moon planet, going to the Mars planet. Why? What you will gain? Still they are going. Simply spending money. In Bengal it is called ostādi. Ostādi, in English? One who places himself as very intelligent leader. What is called in one word? Bhagavān: Presumptuous? Prabhupāda: Presumptions? Bhagavān: Presumes he's something that he's... Prabhupāda: No, it is a very nice word. Hari-śauri: An imposter? Prabhupāda: Imposter is falsely. It is not exactly false. Beginning with "p." Do you find there teacher? Teachers, other things? Hari-śauri: Teacher? Prabhupāda: Teacher, and other synonyms. Find out the teacher. They have got so many synonyms. Hari-śauri: Teacher. "Educator, instructor, preceptor, master, tutor, coach, schoolmaster, schoolmistress, schoolmarm, pedagogue." Prabhupāda: Pedagogue, yes, this word. Hari-śauri: Pedagogy, how do you pronounce this word? Pedagogue. *Prabhupāda: This word, now you see what is the pedagogue in dictionary. Pedigree. Pedagogue*-pedagogue or predagogue? Hari-śauri: Pedagogue. Here we are. "Pedagogue: schoolmaster, teacher." That's all he gives. "Pedagogy: science of teaching." Bhagavān: "Employing pedantry." Look up pedantry. It says, "Usually derogatory." *Hari-śauri: Oh, "Pedant*-one who overrates booklearning or technical knowledge or insists on strict adherence to formal rules. One always possessed by theory doctrinaire(?)." Prabhupāda: Yes, this word. Hari-śauri: Pedant. Prabhupāda: Pedagogue? Bhagavān: Pedagogue is the first, yes. Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Hari-śauri: P*-e-d-a-g-o-g-u-e. Prabhupāda: Pedagogue. Not pedi, but peda. Hari-śauri: Pedagogue. Prabhupāda: So they are going on, pedagogue. Hari-śauri: And the other one is pedant, pedant. One who overrates booklearning. Prabhupāda: Pedantry, there is a... Our Harikeśa was speaking that if they do not say there is life in Mars, then their whole propaganda will fail. Hari-śauri: Yes, I was saying that this morning. Prabhupāda: This time, if they say that there is no life in the Mars, they'll never get next chance, he said. I think it is meaningful. Bhagavān: It will substantiate our claim. Prabhupāda: No, our claim intelligent. They are loitering. Our claim is that they do not know anything about that. All foolish propaganda. But their position is that unless they say that there is life, then this false propaganda will no longer run on. We are certain that they cannot go there, neither is it possible to understand what is there, simply imagination. We do not give any credit. Hari-śauri: You said you had some plan? For the land here? When we came in, you were saying you had some plan for the land. Prabhupāda: Plan is that we have got woods. Cut the woods, make small cottages, and engage them for growing fruits, flowers, grains, and make the complete arrangement nicely. Water... Hari-śauri: Irrigation. Prabhupāda: In this way make it ever green. Bhagavān: There was a question about the cows, that at what point should the calf be separated from the mother. Because sometimes when the calf is separated, the mother, she cries. Prabhupāda: No, they should not be taken away. Bhagavān: Shouldn't be. Hari-śauri: I think in all our farms they do that. Bhagavān: I heard in New Vrindaban they took them away very early. Hari-śauri: The problem is that the calves drink so much milk that they become very sick, so they have to separate. Prabhupāda: Therefore they should not be allowed always. Once in a day, that's all. Hari-śauri: Oh. Prabhupāda: Not too much allowed, but once. At least while milking they should be allowed to drink little milk, and that will encourage the mother to deliver more milk. Hari-śauri: Oh. At the same time they're milking the cow, the calf can come. Prabhupāda: Yes. They can bring it milk. And while milking, the calf may be standing before the mother. Hari-śauri: They do that in India. Prabhupāda: So she will not be sorry. Completely separation is not good. And after birth at least for one week the calf should be allowed. Because after this giving birth the milk is not fit for human consumption. The calf should not be allowed to eat more, but at the same time the mother must see once, twice, then it will be all right. Of course, we are born in big, big towns, we do not know, but I know this is the process. In Allahabad I was keeping cow, there was facility. Bhagavān: I don't think our farms are doing like that. In New Vrindaban they do? Hari-śauri: What, letting the calves come? I don't think so. You can write a letter to... The whole system's so perfect, it's completely satisfying in every respect. Prabhupāda: And if you make others dissatisfied for your pleasure, that is sinful. You should act in such a way that nobody is dissatisfied. Then there is balance. Hari-śauri: Expert management. Prabhupāda: You have got puffed rice? Hari-śauri: They may have some in the kitchen, I can check. They have flat rice. Prabhupāda: No. *Hari-śauri: Puffed rice. This Chavana*-prash, it says five to ten grams every morning with milk. Prabhupāda: With milk. Five to ten grams. Hari-śauri: Yes, that's like a heaped spoonful. I think that's about what you're getting there. Prabhupāda: Whatever we take, that is five to ten grams? Hari-śauri: Approximately. Maybe a little more. Prabhupāda: How much milk? It is not... Hari-śauri: Doesn't say, it just says with milk. It's like according to taste. Prabhupāda: So in the morning. That's all right. Hari-śauri: I'll go and find out about this... Prabhupāda: Puffed rice. [break] Bhagavān: Zucchini? Hari-śauri: This is zucchini? This? Bhagavān: Yes. We should show Prabhupāda each thing that we're doing. [break] Devotee (1): These are flowers which decorate the vases, they are very tall. They put in the vases every day on the altar, Kṛṣṇa, and this morning, taking garlands made out of this, smells very nice. Also the carnation. It was the one I gave you yesterday on your walk. It has a very nice scent. Prabhupāda: No, you have got this cucumber? Devotee (1): Yes, there is cucumber. Prabhupāda: So if fresh, why not eat? Hari-śauri: We have fresh cucumber every day. Prabhupāda: But when I take it does not appear to be fresh. Devotee (1): These are bulk cucumbers. Devotee (2): This is fresh cucumber from the garden. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Tomorrow. Prabhupāda: The cucumber which is supplied to me, that is not fresh. Devotee (1): It is from the market. We were not aware that they had cucumber in the garden, because I asked... Prabhupāda: You are not aware? Why not? Devotee (1): I was not aware. Hari-śauri: He's our supplier. Prabhupāda: At least one cucumber, and this chili, you can make a nice salad. You say that there's no peas? Devotee (1): They are just ready actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They're just ready for picking now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (1): Beans you have had every day from the garden. Hari-śauri: Beans are very stringy. Prabhupāda: Oh, so many fresh things. Devotee (1): From the greenhouse they are actually. Hari-śauri: What is this? Devotee (1): That is zucchini, only very small. (laughter) We let them get big to feed so many devotees. Prabhupāda: Very nice, very fresh, so many things can be done. Hari-śauri: This is zucchini? Prabhupāda: This called, this is, I do not know what you call. It is called komura.(?) It is very nice. Hari-śauri: We used to call them marrows. Devotee (1): Tomato. It's an Italian type of tomato, and there's another one. Prabhupāda: This is apple? Devotee (1): Yes, that's for cooking. Hari-śauri: Cabbage. Devotee (1): Pears. Bhagavān: They're growing chick peas. They're not ripe yet. Devotee (1): You can see inside, inside the pod. They have to go yellow on the plant and then we pick them and then put them in sacks for the winter. Bhagavān: We had a whole field planted of chickpea. They're very expensive here, so it's nice. Prabhupāda: So you have got immediately some pods? Devotee (1): And also you have been taking the fresh coriander, dhane. Prabhupāda: Oh, nice. So, this pod? Devotee (1): Peas, beans. Prabhupāda: You have got some? Devotee (1): Yes, plenty, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Bring all them. (laughter) Hari-śauri: He supplies us every day. What's this? Woman devotee: This is lemon spinach. Devotee (1): A type of sour spinach. Bhagavān: Tastes like a lemon. Prabhupāda: Yes. Very good. Bhagavān: Anything else hidden in here? This is our apple? Woman devotee: Sweet peas. Devotee (1): There's many varieties of flowers in the gardens, many flowers for garlands for almost the next two months. Prabhupāda: Grow more, more, all these fruits, flowers. Bhagavān: This is from ours? Woman devotee: Yes. Devotee (1): Rose. We are growing 2,500... [break] Prabhupāda: Go and live happily. This is a... Devotee (1): Pear. Prabhupāda: You have got puffed rice? So bring some this pod. I shall, with puffed rice, I shall take this. Hari-śauri: How do you want them cooking? Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll take it. Let them bring. Hari-śauri: Bring some now? (laughter) Bhagavān: Glories to Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Give Mandākinī these peas. Tomorrow she can utilize it for kacuri. I've asked her to make kacuri. Let them use this. Hari-śauri: They must have only just come ripe just this last week. Prabhupāda: So many things are growing. Puffed rice, you simply make it hot, dry, take it away, and then take some of the peas, put very little ghee and masalā and some peas, fry it nicely. Then put little water and cover it. When it is soft, you can add with it little the green chilis. Hari-śauri: These big ones? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not very much, but little. Hari-śauri: These are not very hot, the big ones. The small ones are the hot ones, but we don't have any of those left. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: Then mix them or keep them separate? Prabhupāda: No, keep separate. They should be very soft. And the puffed rice hot. Then mix with little ghee and masalā. Then, I'll take little. Hari-śauri: Jaya. (end) *Morning Walk Excerpt-*-August 3, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm) Prabhupāda: Oh, can I see? [break] Bhagavān: Carnations, these are gladiolus vases, those long flowers. This is the chili peppers over here, green peppers. What's the best way to go, over here? Devotee: ...wants to see over there? The flowers and everything? [break] Prabhupāda: (Prabhupāda kīrtana in background) ...that this voice does not belong to this universe. Devotees: Haribol! *Prabhupāda: That is the secret. It is imported from the spiritual world. Golokera prema*-dhana, hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana. Golokera- it is coming from Goloka Vṛndāvana. (pause) That girl has returned? No. Hari-śauri: That girl from Thailand? She's still in Paris? Bhagavān: She's in Paris. Hari-śauri: She's still in Paris. (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 3, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm) Prabhupāda: The whole world is becoming CIA. (laughter) We can say, that "All right, the Americans have sent their CIA, but why the Germans business there? They are also CIA?" And where is... Soon the Russians also will join, the Polish also will join, everyone will join. Bhagavān: Africans. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: They can't say the Russians are CIA. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: No. We have got potency to force everyone to join. The Russians have already imperceptibly joined*-they have praised my books. That is imperceptible, what is called? *Harikeśa: Ajñāta*-sukṛti. *Prabhupāda: Ah. In East Germany also, they have placed order. So this is joining. Just like for us, if you bring any other literature, we throw it away immediately. We take it as useless. Actually it is. We have nothing to learn from them, anything. All bogus. Either he's scientist or astronomer, or..., we know they are talking all bogus things. There may be some truth. Even that truth is there when a child speaks, there is some truth. When a child speaks to his parents, there is some truth, otherwise where is the question of talking? So little portion truth is there, everywhere. But when they talk of big, big things-they are going to Mars and scratching sand there*-that we don't believe. That we don't believe. When they talk of this tape recorder, some electronic machine, joining together and it is working, that much care you can take. But when you speak of so many things, that millions of years there were germs and germination, now they are trying to come out, and it is all vacant-these are all bogus, we don't accept. Talking too much. In Bengal it is called yatap(?) When the same child speaks something too much, "Ah, stop." To the extent of his capacity, that's all right. But if you talk more than that, then you are rascal. So they are doing that now. Because they have got some electronic success, or they have manufactured some jet plane, or these, they are now thinking "Now we have owned over the whole world situation." That is nonsense. They are thinking like that: "Now we have control over the world world." That is yatam,(?) speaking more than their capacity. And so far we are concerned, we don't talk anything, except what is mentioned in the books. That's all. We remain always foolish. And as foolish men, we do not talk. We simply talk what is mentioned by Vyāsadeva, by Śukadeva Gosvāmī. That's all. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu... These things have been discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by Prahlāda Mahārāja, that in the material world, the only pleasure is sex. There is no pleasure. Always working hard like asses, that's all, everyone. Not only in one. Life after life, life after life. This is material. And... (children outside yelling) So why they are here? Bhagavān: Children? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: I'll tell them... (to devotee outside) Those children out there, their terrible screaming's disturbing Prabhupāda. Harikeśa: They're all the way down the road. Bhagavān: Get them all off the road. *Prabhupāda: This is the trap of māyā, to keep them captivated by sex attraction. All these living entities who are in this material world, beginning from the higher planetary system down to the ants and germs and flies. This is the primary enjoyment, sex. The central attraction is sex. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. The human being, the same sex desire, they decorate it in a different way. But the central point is the same. "So all right, why? It is enjoyment, why you are forbidding?" Saintly persons say, yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. It is a pleasure of itching sensation. Itching sensation, when you itch, it is very pleasing. But bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ [SB 7.9.45]. Aftereffect is very bad, suffering. Itching, if you itch more, it aggravates, sometimes causes so many other by-products and so on, so on. That is fact. But everyone knows it, that "I may enjoy sex pleasure now; *the aftereffect will be very bad." Bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. But why people do it again and again? Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Those who are kṛpaṇa-kṛpaṇa means not brāhmaṇa-those who are not trained up as a brāhmaṇa, they cannot tolerate this itching sensation. They become victimized and the aftereffect is very, very bad. So either illicit or not illicit... They know it. The modern civilization, they have adopted the means of killing. First of all, they try to stop pregnancy by contraceptive method, and still if it is not stopped, then kill. And if he's still born, then again they put up in a box and go away. You know this? Harikeśa: Yes, the baby, they put it in a closet and lock the door and walk out. Hari-śauri: Oh, in Japan. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is happening in Japan and other places. They put, and when the obnoxious smell comes, they open it and they find. Mother has become so kind. They put in a box and lock it up. Hari-śauri: Airport lockers. Prabhupāda: These are happening. But when you talk of that "You learn how to become brahmacārī," that they will refuse. This is the position. The aftereffect is very, very bad, either you get legally or illegally. Legally, we have to raise the children very nicely. Otherwise, they will, unwanted children, create so much trouble. You have to take care for their proper education, of their clothes.(?) We say, "Never mind, you have got children, give them proper education, make them devotees, make their life successful." We cannot say that "You kill them." That we cannot say. That is not possible. Neither we can pack them in the, what is that box? Hari-śauri: Lockers. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not possible for us. We welcome. But we must be well organized to utilize these poor souls for becoming first*-class devotees. That should be done. Otherwise, sex life and the by-product, that is always troublesome, either you take this way or that way, it is troublesome. If it is not troublesome, why they are killing their own children? To avoid trouble. This is psychology. They want to avoid trouble. But our process is, if you want to avoid trouble, then don't marry, remain brahmacārī. If you cannot, then, all right, have legal wife, get children and raise them very nicely, make them Vaiṣṇavas, take the responsibility. So we are organizing this society, we welcome. Some way or other we shall arrange for shelter. But to take care of the children, to educate them, that will depend on their parents. Now our Pradyumna was complaining that in the Gurukula, his child was not educated to count one, two, three, four. So I have told him that "You educate your child. Let the mother educate in English, and you educate him in Sanskrit." Who can take care? So similarly every father, mother should take care that in future they may not be a batch of unwanted children. We can welcome hundreds and thousands of children. There is no question of economic problem. We know that. But the father, mother must take care at least. Properly trained up, they should be always engaged. That is brahmacārī gurukula. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam [SB 7.12.1]. From the very beginning they should be trained up. From the body, they should be trained up how to take bath, how to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or some Vedic mantra, go to the temple, offer obeisances, prayer, then take their lunch... In this way, they should be always engaged. Then they'll be trained up. Simple thing. We don't want to train them as big grammarians. No. That is not wanted. That anyone, if he has got some inclination, he can do it personally. There is no harm. General training is that he must be a devotee, a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That should be introduced. Otherwise, the gurukula will be... Otherwise Jyotirmayī was suggesting the biology. What they'll do with biology? Don't introduce unnecessary nonsense things. Simple life. Simply to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply let them be convinced that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is our duty to serve Him, that's all. Huh? (indistinct) What is that? māyār bośe, jāccho bhese' Khāccho hābuḍubu bhāi jīv kṛṣṇa-dās ei biśwās korle to ār duḥkho nāi. So organize. If you have got sufficient place, sufficient scope, let them be trained up very nicely. If some four, five centers like this there are in Europe, the whole face will be changed. Important places like Germany, France, England. Now we are getting place. I like that place, German, on account of this. It has got scope. Harikeśa: There's no land. Prabhupāda: That you can acquire, that you can acquire. But building is very nice. Hari-śauri: We don't own that place, though, do we? Prabhupāda: Never mind, own or not own. You possess and that's all. You don't own anything. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Do you think it is, you own this? Hari-śauri: No, I was thinking in terms of ISKCON. Prabhupāda: This is all Kṛṣṇa's property. So long He likes, we shall remain. That's all. I know that. (laughs) Just like we entered Bhaktivedanta Manor without any arrangement. I know that so long Kṛṣṇa will like, we shall... If Kṛṣṇa says "Go away," we shall go away, what is that? Why so much legal implication? Everywhere, although we have got big, big buildings, I don't think we own it. It is Kṛṣṇa's. So long He likes, we shall remain there, if He doesn't like, we shall go away. What is this? Why you should stress on the proprietorship? Hari-śauri: No, I was just thinking in terms of the karmīs. Prabhupāda: They are not proprietor. Harikeśa: Would you like that tomatoes and cucumber and...? *Prabhupāda: Yes, bring. Mānasa deho geho jo kichu mor arpiluṅ tuwā pade nanda*-kiśora. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. "Whatever I have got, it is all Yours." Ānukūlyasya saṅkalpa. Whatever is favorable, take it, that's all. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇa-anuśīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā. This is? What is that, apple? Devotee (1): Apple, cucumber. The apples are not fresh, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from the tree, because those apples you saw yesterday were just for cooking. They're very sour... Bhagavān: They have eating apples. We have eating apples. Devotee (1): They're sour, too sour. Just for cooking. Bhagavān: That's fresh cucumber? And our tomato? Devotee (1): They're a little warm because they've been in the sun all day. Bhagavān: The peas were good last night? *Prabhupāda: Very good, but I could not digest them. That is my fault, but, oh, it was so nice palatable. Chick peas, chick peas, grow fresh. Eat very nicely, keep strong, drink milk, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bas. Don't depend on this outside work and then gradually become debauch, thief, rogues, prostitutes. Is that civilization? They cannot imagine that the modern civilization can go without all these things. Do they not? Slaughterhouse, brothel, cheating, diplomacy, roguery, drinking*-without this, no civilization. We are quite opposed. We want to show it is possible, yes. You can stop all this nonsense and still you go on as a perfect civilized man. With character, knowledge, satisfaction, everything. They are trying to gather knowledge by sending so many machines up to date. We have already got. We say you cannot go there, you are simply wasting your time. We have got so much knowledge. No, you can attempt, just like a monkey, that's all right. But our verdict is already there. You cannot go there. Ten years before I said this moon excursion is simply childish and waste of money in my Easy Journey to Other Planets. I am not a scientist, but how I dared to say? Because I know, I have got full knowledge. That is the difference. Without becoming scientist, we can give our verdict. Veda-pramāṇam. (Prabhupāda is eating) Umm, better give this fresh fruit. Don't bring all rotten. In the market you cannot get fresh. All three hundred years old. Anything fresh, that is full of vitamin. Grow fresh, take fresh. In India there is no system to purchase three-hundred-years-old bread and eat. It must be freshly made. Wife is preparing in the simple oven, husband is eating, children are eating. You know Yaśodāmāyī calling Kṛṣṇa? "Come back! Your father is waiting!" You remember this? That is Indian system. The father and the children, they sit down, mother will bring fresh dāl, rice and cāpāṭi, and distribute, and they eat. We used to do that. Along with father we shall sit down for eating, separately. There was no need of table-on the ground. And mother will distribute, cook. No servant; mother personally, wife personally. Bhagavān: In the Kṛṣṇa book you describe that in Kṛṣṇa's palace there were so many beautiful maidservants, but Rukmiṇī chose to fan Kṛṣṇa personally. Prabhupāda: Yes. Still, in Indian family system, when the husband comes from office, the wife takes care immediately. Even in these days. That is, at least, a manifestation of faithfulness. (aside) No, don't bother. This has fallen. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: So how to? Hari-śauri: Requires some steps or something. Bhagavān: You go on walk tonight? Prabhupāda: Why not? Bhagavān: They can fix all your... Hari-śauri: Someone can come in whilst we're gone. Prabhupāda: The cucumber cutting, there is a process. I'll show you. Sometimes cucumber is bitter. By that process it can be avoided. Harikeśa: You mean chop the top and you go... Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. That's all right. Devotee (1): This is bitter? Prabhupāda: We tasted one piece. Yes, little bitter. Bhagavān: When they work in the fields, we have speakers all over the land, and they hear you chanting all day long. Prabhupāda: Very good. This should be arranged with lemon juice. If you have got these fruits, there is no need of purchasing. Bhagavān: The tomatoes are supposed to be as good as oranges. The tomatoes are supposed to be as healthy as oranges. Prabhupāda: Yes. In our childhood, these tomatoes were called foreign eggplant, bilāti beguna. And because it was foreign, nobody will touch it. In our childhood we'd never eat the tomato. It was rejected by whole Indian Hindu culture. Harikeśa: Tomatoes don't grow in India? *Prabhupāda: No. It was imported. Because it was imported they would not touch. The mill cloth, because they were imported, no gentleman will touch. No religious function would allow to use mill-made cloth. And so far medicine is concerned, they would never touch it. This is the difficulty... (indistinct) sent a confidential report that if you want to keep Indians as Indian you'll never be able to do like that. Then they will gradually introduce all this nonsense, drinking tea, drinking wine. "You are uncivilized. Whatever British are doing, they are civilized way. England's work in India." And they were given facilities, those who were English educated. In this way, they first of all tried to make the whole Indian population Anglici... Not possible to all. At least, those who are educated. So the so-called Indian educated, they took it seriously. Just like our Bon Mahārāja. English way of living, with fork and... Yes. He has taken it seriously. He is under impression, whatever is foreign. In this way Indian culture was killed. The Muhammadans, they had no such idea. They wanted to rule over, that's all. And the money was not going to outside They were spending lavishly*-in India. The money was in India, but these people, they're dispersing all the money, jewels, and everything valuable, outside India. So they became poverty-stricken. And culturally conquered. (aside) Not so many. This will be enough. Bhagavān: One time you said that they criticized you when you were going to America because you did not know about the knife and the fork? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bon Mahārāja. And the book English Etiquette. Very big book. How to sit, how to laugh, how to smile, how to pass water, how to this... (laughter) And they would learn it and waste time. (pause) So, if you grow more, and offer fruits to the Deity in the evening, and this will be very nice. You can distribute that. Bhagavān: Would you like to go for a walk soon? I'll get everything ready. The palanquin was nice? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, everything is nice. In the morning also you give me fresh fruit and that milk and medicine, that's all. And when I'm (indistinct), someday we can take puri and... (end) Prabhupāda: ...any expert in your country who can fry foodgrains in hot sand. Bhagavān: Like they make puffed rice, I think, like that. I don't think so. They do it by machine. Prabhupāda: Puffed rice? How? What is that machine? Bhagavān: When they make a thatcher, they use some kind of machine. *Prabhupāda: But we can do it very easily. Sand should be very hot. You can make hot sand, it is not difficult. Any fire. And then take the grains in some, another pot, and put the hot sands under it and then agitate. And it will puff*-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff, they'll be finished. Bhagavān: Put the hot sand where? Prabhupāda: Sand is being heated in fire, so you put the grains in another pot and put the hot sand there. Hari-śauri: Underneath the pot? Prabhupāda: Why underneath? I said another pot. You are so dull brain. Here is hot sand. I bring in another pot, the grains, and the hot sand I pour on it. Hari-śauri: Pour on it, on top of the grains. Oh. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And then agitate and then put the whole thing on a mesh and make it like this, again put the hot sand there. Is it clear? Then you get the puffed*-up grains. That is very good food. Hari-śauri: Devotees make popcorn. Bhagavān: That's another thing. Prabhupāda: Popcorn, they fry it in ghee, hot ghee. Hari-śauri: Not much though, just a little. Prabhupāda: No, I've seen it. They do it. But that is not very digestive. If you make this sand, hot sand... Bhagavān: It's light. *Prabhupāda: Very light. In the morning you can give them this puffed grains, then fruits and milk, very good breakfast. I mean to say all self*-dependent. Yes. We should save time, as much for this purpose, for chanting, discussing grantha. Not for any personal so-called comforts. We can sit down anywhere on the grass here, and whatever available we make our food. This is the idea. Life will be sublime. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām. That is real business. Bhagavān: They are spending so much money for entertainment in material life, but no one is becoming enlivened. But this kind of discussion is so fresh. For a show they pay five dollars, to go to one movie for one hour, two hours. *Prabhupāda: That is another artificial agitation of the mind. It has, there is no practical benefit. Just see how many varieties of flowers, colorful. Can they make such colorful? "Yes, we're trying to overcome nature. Wait millions of years." And what about not? "Now you sleep." (laughter) These rascals are misleading other rascals. And they are, "Oh, a scientist!" Very misleading civilization. We shall appreciate in every flower the craftsmanship of Kṛṣṇa, how He has done nicely. Unnecessarily puffed up by so*-called advancement of knowledge, misleading themselves and misleading others. Who is that old man comes? Some old man? Bhagavān: He's a life member from Belgium. Prabhupāda: Oh. He has come from Belgium? In the last German war, the first attempt of attack was on Belgium. And within few hours, Belgium finished, conquered. Bhagavān: It's a very nice part of the day. It's warm, nice part of the day. Prabhupāda: I think this part is better situated than New Vrindaban, eh? What do you think? Hari-śauri: This is a lot nicer. Prabhupāda: New Vrindaban is on the rocks and hills, and this is plain. Therefore situation is better. That New Orleans is also plain land. You have been there? And Pennsylvania is also. Hari-śauri: Pennsylvania is very good. Prabhupāda: But it doesn't matter. Our purpose will be served anywhere. So, try to concentrate in this village organization life. Full of anxieties, city life. The houses already there, if you repair them nicely then it is a very nice place. They're gradually being repaired. Bhagavān: Yes. No one is getting any salary here, they are just working and taking... Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. Why salary? Kṛṣṇa's servant. We are eternal servant. That is the beauty of our institution. We have no hired men. Unless one is sincere, why he'll work? What is the time now? *Bhagavān: Eight*-thirty. *Prabhupāda: I think it is stopped. Just see how beautifully it is colored. This sense, aesthetic sense. Kṛṣṇa knows how it will become beautiful. Svā-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. Construction-eh?*-of the flower. And there is no intelligence. Hari-śauri: Chance. Prabhupāda: So beat them with shoes and when they protest, "Oh, it is chance, don't mind. It is by chance I am beating." (laughter) Bhagavān: It seems they are struggling so hard for existence they do not have time to contemplate these simple things, working so hard. Prabhupāda: So show the simple example that how by simple living and thinking of Kṛṣṇa, one can become perfect and happy. Hari-śauri: People's minds are so much agitated by false desire that they can't appreciate anything. Real beauty they overlook, searching for something else. *Prabhupāda: My mother used to make puffed rice at home. So there is special rice available for making puffed rice. Either you can prepare at home or you can purchase in the market, special rice. So she was preparing nice puffed rice, very, very nice. In a sand pot. My mother was always engaged in making some food preparation. Some pickle, some chutney, and this puffed rice, or something else, something else, something else. Besides cooking for the family, she was being assisted by my sisters. Always palatable foodstuff. So many guests were there, and if son*-in-law would come, they would specially prepare food for him. To receive guests, give them nice food to eat, prepare nice food for the family, this is the Indian pleasure. They are not very much, nowadays, for upkeep of the home, very... That, in their own way, they keep it very nicely. Every utensils, very cleansed, they are kept ready for use, some cloth. If you go in a poor man's home, but you'll find everything very neat and clean. Ask these gṛhasthas to keep their home very neat and clean. Are they keeping? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: What are the general program for eating? Bhagavān: For eating? Every morning everyone has a nice glass of yogurt, chickpeas and apple, orange and banana. Prabhupāda: Chickpeas fried? Bhagavān: Boiled, chick peas. And apple, orange and banana. And in the afternoon they have rice, dāl, cāpāṭi, and salad, and in the evening they have a glass of milk and a little bread. Prabhupāda: That's nice. What is that machine? Hari-śauri: One of the vans. Prabhupāda: Vans. (child crying outside) "Prabhupāda?" (laughs) *Bhagavān: We brought the Jagannātha Deity here from Paris for Ratha*-yātrā, and He stayed here for eight days and then went back. And when He went back all the Gurukula children, they were all crying and running after the truck. Prabhupāda: Ācchā (laughs). So... It is natural affection. Bhagavān: The little boys also, they were crying, little girls. *Prabhupāda: So Ratha*-yātrā was functioned here? Bhagavān: Oh, yes, very big, two hundred devotees here. It was very ecstatic. Nice prasāda and nice procession. When He came, all the cows came up and they were looking. (laughs) Prabhupāda: The villagers joined? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are finding something new *Hari-śauri: The Times of India gave a very good report of New York Ratha*-yātrā. Prabhupāda: You have got it? Hari-śauri: It's in the room, I thought you'd seen it. Bhagavān: They cannot publish anything bad about us. They try to find, sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Seems they're always carrying little snippets of information about what we're doing. Before there was a report about the restaurants, and here there's two reports about..., one about the Jagannātha festival in New York and one about the proposed Vedic university in Kurukṣetra. These were on consecutive days. The one about New York, it says, "Washington, July the 19th." That's where it's reported from. It says, "New York saw on Sunday an unusual spectacle of three brightly colored chariots being pulled along the city's prestigious Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, a distance of about five kilometers, by members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa group. The rathas, built in Orissan style with giant wooden wheels, attracted large crowds of spectators all along the route. It was a novel experience for the New Yorkers. Many resident Indians who are not members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement enthusiastically gave a hand in the pulling. The Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees were celebrating the feast of Jagannātha in the traditional Indian way. The police and the city administration readily cooperated. In a city that is coming to be known for its tolerance of diverse cultures, chariot processions promise to be an annual event. While a few citizens booed and some altercations were reported, the spectacle was well received by the New Yorkers. 'I think it is great,' the New York Times quoted a man as saying. The person, who identified himself as a visitor to New York and was not a Hare Kṛṣṇa fan, referring to the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, added, 'They are all happy and dancing, and that's what life's all about.' Later a vegetarian feast was served to the admirers." Prabhupāda: Very good. Hari-śauri: It's very good. There's just a real short one about the university in Kurukṣetra. It says, "Vedic Varsity for Kurukṣetra Soon." "The first Vedic university will come up soon at Kurukṣetra and will be affiliated to V.M. Cakravarty University. The proposed university is being set up by the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, and will cost rupees two crore. Most of the funds will be provided by Mr. Alfred Ford, the nephew of the auto magnate Henry Ford. Mr. Ford, on becoming a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder of ISKCON, changed his name to Ambarīṣa dāsa. The Vedic university will offer courses leading to bhakti-śāstrī and sarvabhauma." Prabhupāda: [break] ...new devotees joining? Bhagavān: Yes. The last month we have about five new devotees. Prabhupāda: Hm? Bhagavān: Including children, there are about hundred ninety altogether. *Prabhupāda: Hundred*-ninety, two hundred. Bhagavān: Almost two hundred. One family has joined yesterday. Prabhupāda: Family? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: Husband, wife and children? Bhagavān: Two children. He's a builder and plumber. Prabhupāda: Oh, you'll get help for construction work. He can teach others also. Live peacefully, happily, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Bhagavān: The garden crew, when they go out in the afternoon, they have kīrtana out to the fields with mṛdaṅga and karatālas where they work. Prabhupāda: You have to arrange for little more water so you can... The pump is not in order. You can arrange for that. Bhagavān: Your water supply has been all right? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhagavān: This, in July, this is normal weather now, in August and July. But generally in July it has some rain. Prabhupāda: This year... Bhagavān: Yes. And it was the hottest weather in a hundred years. Prabhupāda: Now. Bhagavān: It was, in July. Extremely hot. And actually our well was one of the only ones functioning in the whole area, and we were watering the crops and everything. Our corn is very nice, very high, and our tomatoes are very good. The barley harvest was five tons. Prabhupāda: Five times more. Bhagavān: Five tons of barley we got, from our harvest. It was very nice. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhagavān: Did you get some barley flour? Prabhupāda: I don't have any. Hari-śauri: (laughs) We can't make, it's not finely ground enough. We can't make it into cāpāṭis. It's just too coarse. Prabhupāda: You could do one thing. You just smash that and boil with milk. Hari-śauri: You mean a mortar and pestle? Prabhupāda: Smash and boil with milk. Don't put sugar. Then I shall put sugar according to my taste. Hari-śauri: You want that this evening? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: No. Tomorrow morning. Bhagavān: We are the only farm in the whole area that is growing chick peas. The man said he did not think they can grow. But we have a whole field of chick peas. They'll be coming up ripe for harvest in about three weeks. *Prabhupāda: Chick peas very nutritious. If you simply boil soft, oh, it is very nutritious. A little, so much, is as good as full meal. Next time, if possible, I shall come in June*-June, July, August. Bhagavān: Yes, these are nice months, best months. Prabhupāda: It is not difficult. To come to Paris it takes eight or nine hours from Bombay. Hari-śauri: But you might already be in America at that time. (laughs) You're always in America at that time. Prabhupāda: Now this place is very nice. The outside, so pleasing, the outdoors. Bhagavān: I think you are feeling a little better? Prabhupāda: Yes, little. This facility is nowhere in America, outdoors. Hari-śauri: Well, we have one or two places that are just developing, like Miami. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hari-śauri: That's fifteen, fifteen acres? Something like that. No, more. Prabhupāda: Miami climate is like this. Hari-śauri: Oh, very nice. They have a mango orchard. Prabhupāda: Oh, also coconut. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, very good dobs there. Detroit was also very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes, Detroit. [break] ...Mālatī? Bhagavān: Mālatī? She was there. Hari-śauri: All those boys are coming tomorrow or the day after from Germany. Harikeśa was in touch with them. Bhagavān: We have a nice program on saṅkīrtana where at least twice a week they go to a house and give a class at someone's home. Prabhupāda: Where? Bhagavān: Wherever they are. They meet some interested person and they go and they have a class in their home. Prabhupāda: And he invites friends. Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Bhagavān: And one man, after the devotee was there, the next week he sent two thousand dollars in the mail. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Bhagavān: And then he came to the Paris temple and he gave another thousand dollars. And then two weeks later he sent again two thousand dollars, and then he moved in with his whole family. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (laughs) Bhagavān: They are here now. He had his own business and everything, very successful. His children are in the Gurukula and he is doing saṅkīrtana. Prabhupāda: His wife also? Bhagavān: She is the secretary. Very nice. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom they came? Bhagavān: South of France. Prabhupāda: South of France. Hari-śauri: If we had a big farm in the south it would be very nice. In the south of France the weather is always very good. Prabhupāda: South of France is near Mediterranean. Marseilles is south? Bhagavān: Marseilles is right on the Mediterranean. We have very big saṅkīrtana there. Prabhupāda: Marseilles? Oh. Bhagavān: Many books distributed. Prabhupāda: How far it is from...? Bhagavān: From here? About six hours. Prabhupāda: On the whole, they are appreciating. Bhagavān: Oh, yes. *Prabhupāda: This man has come means after appreciating. Everything surrendered*-money, family, everything. Bhagavān: Of all the different groups in this country, we have the best reputation. They hardly ever write any bad thing about us. Prabhupāda: French people are, I think, cultured than other states. *Bhagavān: They like to read. When they distribute the hard*-cover books door to door, many people always look at the binding, how the book is made, and they like the pictures. Prabhupāda: We have got our own mung dāl? Bhagavān: Mung dāl. This is the first year we're growing. We have a large patch. Prabhupāda: Not yet harvested. Bhagavān: Not yet harvested. But the plants are all very healthy, strong. Prabhupāda: So in the morning you can give. We have got other mung dāl? Soak it, soak it, and raw mung dāl also. Ginger and this cucumber. *Bhagavān: When we installed the Gaura*-Nitāi Deity last January, many villagers came, and they all came, they were touching the floor, they have never seen such a nice floor, how smooth it was. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Such marble floor they never saw. (pause) [break] ...who has paid you more than five thousand dollars and he has joined, that does not mean that he's a foolish man. He's a businessman. So what about his business? Leased to somebody else? He leased out to somebody else? Bhagavān: He's finished. Prabhupāda: Oh, stopped that business? Bhagavān: Yes. He's full time here. He had plumbing business, so he does all the plumbing here. And he meets all the officials, the police, and they like him. He is older man. He has a very nice way of presenting himself. Hari-śauri: He's been here over a year now. Bhagavān: Several months ago we had a parents' meeting. Because on account of this man Moon, there was much agitation about groups taking young children away. So we had a very nice meeting with prasādam and slides, and one of the parents was saying that "We want to be angry at you, but the problem is that you are all so nice that we cannot be angry." Prabhupāda: One gentleman has joined, he has paid five thousand dollars. His whole family has joined. Harikeśa: Just now? That's nice. Bhagavān: His wife's the same too. Harikeśa: Oh? [break] *Bhagavān: I wanted to get Kṛṣṇa book published while you are here. So I really pushed our printer to work very hard. I told him, "But the thing is, I have no money to pay you right now," because we had just printed Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. He said, "You try to give me five percent down and I'll give you eight months' credit." Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (laughs) Bhagavān: So I didn't have the money because we were fixing up. So one girl joined, and she gave eight thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: And what is the whole bill? *Bhagavān: That was..., the whole bill was about forty*-five thousand dollars. So that was sufficient for the downpayment. Prabhupāda: It is about more than ten percent. He wants five percent. Bhagavān: But I gave him. (end) *Room Conversation With French Commander-*-August 3, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm) Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? This is a family from Corsica. Yogeśvara: The saṅkīrtana boys met them when they were distributing in Corsica. Devotee (1): Mr. Marchand, and the girl, his wife, and little girl and boy. Prabhupāda: Where is Bhagavān dāsa? Mrs. Marchand and children: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Thank you. Jaya. Thank you. Thank you. Jaya thank you, Jaya. Devotee (1): Thank you Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Oh, you have painted? *Devotee (1): A lady from Corsica, she gave me that, and she took your Bhagavad*-gītā and also she gave me that for your work. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Devotee (1): Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yogeśvara: Mr. Marchand is a commander in the French Navy. Now he and his family are all chanting on beads and following the regulative principles. Prabhupāda: You retired? Or... Yogeśvara: He's still active. Translator: Still has a few years to go. Prabhupāda: Arjuna was a commander. Bhagavān: Have they seen our French *Bhāgavatam*? Our new French *Bhāgavatam*? *Prabhupāda: So we generally speak that Arjuna was military commander. So before understanding Bhagavad*-gītā, he was commander, and after understanding, he remained a commander, but he became Kṛṣṇa conscious. Translator: He says this brings to mind a question to him, that now that he has received Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he would like to know from you how he should behave in his normal life, because he'll be living very far from the temple. He's two thousand kilometers away from us, and he wants to know how his life should be conducted now that he has become Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, Ninth Chapter. The whole Bhagavad-gītā he has to study, he'll understand. Especially in the Ninth Chapter. Beginning from Seventh to... All the chapters, especially Seventh to Twelfth chapter. He can open that Bhagavad-gītā Seventh Chapter. French. Translator: This is French, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Read it. Translator: Prabhupāda: So, if he has got any difficulty to understand? Ask him. And purport is there. If there is any difficulty, he can inquire. Translator: He says he admires you very much for the work you have done in spreading this message all around, and especially the fact that you have made it so clear that anyone can understand. Prabhupāda: So let him come, join, and help. (laughter) Translator: He says as much as he can he will. Prabhupāda: Why as much? Why not fully? (laughter) The sooner he helps fully... (someone comes in) Oh. Devotees: Jaya, haribol. Prabhupāda: That Punjab National Bank has not sent the... Jayatīrtha: Just like in India. Prabhupāda: If possible, we can talk or... Is it possible to talk with the manager? Punjab National Bank? Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes. Call him. Prabhupāda: He was to send by registered post, but I have not received. You gave the address and everything. Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes, I wrote it down. Prabhupāda: Was he bona fide manager or not? (laughter) Jayatīrtha: He didn't have his seal with him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyway, just inquire. These are our garden flowers. Jayatīrtha: Oh, very nice. Prabhupāda: This is also? Bhagavān: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Anything grown in the garden, that is hundred times valuable than it is purchased from the market. (pause) Bhagavad*-gītā is a book which can guide the whole human society. In all different branches of knowledge, namely in politics, in sociology, in religion, in culture, in philosophy, in economics, everything, all lines are described very vividly, and the human society can take advantage of it. The Bhagavad-gītā begins in the battlefield with politics. And when Arjuna declined to fight, how Kṛṣṇa chastised him, that is described, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam. Find out this verse. Bhagavān: You tell him what Prabhupāda said. *Prabhupāda: You can ask him to open that book. Then read it. (translation read in French) So what is the difficulty in understanding? Ask him. This is military. Kṛṣṇa is asking that "You are in the battlefield. Wherefrom you got this cowardice mentality?" This is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā teaches how to become a brave hero in the battlefield. This is the instruction. Kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame sam. Just read the purport. Is there any purport? (purport read in French) [break] ...difficulty to understand. Translator: He finds it very admirable that from a small verse you are able to always find something new and wonderful to say about it. And he say you go from verse to verse, and the complexity of what you explain is always new and wonderful to read. So he's very admiring of the book. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Bhagavān: How you can go from two lines to three pages. Prabhupāda: I can go more. (laughter) But I have made shortcut. Kṛṣṇa is unlimited. So He can be described unlimitedly. But we have no unlimited patience. Translator: He is explaining that there are so many things to understand about Kṛṣṇa, but we do not have the capacity to understand always. But he feels that at one point, when the soul is pure, these things will be understood automatically, but because we are very far, these commentaries are needed to bring us closer to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the first study of Kṛṣṇa. ABCD. When we learn Bhagavad*-gītā, then we can have some glimpse of idea of Kṛṣṇa. Then we go further in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Translator: He also admires very much that you have created disciples who are able to be very courageous in presenting your message. And that even though sometimes at first he was opposed to them, they were very peaceful always and always very nice to him, and this way they brought him slowly to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: That is preaching method. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended, tṛṇād api sunīcena. You can explain that: Bhagavān: A devotee should always feel lower than the straw in the street. (Mrs. Marchand speaks) Translator: She wants to know if it is recommended that a woman become a sannyāsī. Prabhupāda: Woman should stay under the father, under the husband, and under the elderly sons. Nothing more. Therefore it is the duty of the father to give her in charge of a young man when she is young. This is Vedic culture. Translator: She's asking what should a woman do if she is alone? Prabhupāda: She cannot be alone. Na sataritatam ananti(?). Woman should not be allowed... Just like children. Children cannot be alone. They must taken care of. Similarly a woman, in childhood, should be taken care of by the father; when she's young, she should be taken care of by the husband; and when she's old, she should be taken care of by elderly sons. You'll find in the Vedic literature, the father's responsibility is until she's handed over to a suitable young man. And the husband's responsibility is so long she hasn't got elderly children. At that time, when she has got elderly children, he can leave home and take sannyāsa. So the process is a woman is kept under protection always. There is no independence for woman. That is... Still, in India it is going on. The father is obliged to find out a suitable husband for the daughter and give her in his charge. Then his responsibility finished. Until that, she is, he's responsible to take care of the daughter. Unmarried girl to remain always under the protection of the father. Yogeśvara: But today there seem to be so few qualified husbands. Prabhupāda: Because you do not train the boys to be qualified. You train them to become debauch. What can be done? You train them from brahmacārī, then they'll be responsible husbands. Both the girls and the boys should be trained up. Then they'll be responsible husband and wife and live peacefully. In their young days, if you give them freedom, they'll spoil. What can be done? Young, youthful days, if you give them full freedom, they'll be misguided and spoiled. Translator: She's asking that since in these Western countries the families are so broken up and the women sometimes cannot find a qualified husband, what should she do? Prabhupāda: That, here is the society. You train them. You have got all children. You train them in that way, so that... Whatever is done is done. Now you can make very good society, Kṛṣṇa conscious society. Not that one mistake has been done, you should continue. Rectify it. The difficulty is the modern society, the leaders, they do not know the aim of life. They are blindly doing everything like animals. Their philosophy is like the animals. Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy, that's all. This is the philosophy of the animals. And human philosophy is to understand first of all what I am. I am this body or something else? That is human life. But nobody questions this, there is no institution to teach this science, therefore the whole human society is misguided. Just like if I want to train my boy to become a medical man, then I teach him biology, botany, similar... So if... Because I know I shall make my boy a medical man. Similarly, we should know what is the aim of human life. Then we have to construct the social political, everything, favorable to that end. But they do not know what is the aim of life. That is the whole mistake. I think that in Bible there is a story, prodigal son? So we are prodigal son. We are all sons of God, now we have become prodigal sons. What is the meaning of prodigal? "Without any responsibility," is it not? Do whatever you like. Translator: Run away from the protection of the family. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our position, that we are sons of God, we have given up protection of God. God is protecting in all circumstances. Hari-śauri: It says "Prodigal: recklessly wasteful." *Prabhupāda: That's it. This is the... We are all recklessly wasteful sons of God. We are sons of God, there is no doubt, but at the present moment, recklessly wasteful. We are wasting our valuable life even, we are so reckless. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to check their recklessness and bring them into senses of responsibility, going back home, back to Godhead. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But people are so reckless, as soon as you say something of God, immediately they laugh, "Oh, what is nonsense, God." This is the supreme recklessness. India was very serious about God. Still, India is serious. Now, the present leaders, they are thinking that Indians are spoiled, simply thinking of God-they're not thinking like the Americans and Europeans for economic development. So this is the position, and it is very difficult, but still we can do something this to the humanity, by preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And those who are fortunate, they'll come, take up seriously. These reckless prodigal sons, we have got so many examples. For example, just like there is some stock of petroleum and they got information that from petroleum they can run on cars without horse. So, manufacture millions of cars and spoil the whole oil. This is recklessness. And when it is finished, then they'll cry. And it will be finished. This is going on. Recklessness. Just as reckless boy, father has left some property, use it, use it. As soon as you get. The sooner it is finished, that's all. That is recklessness. There is some strength in the body, and as soon as he gets a little taste of sex life, "Oh, spend it, spend it," whole energy spent. The brain becomes vacant. This is recklessness. Beginning from twelfth year, by the thirty year, everything finished. Then he's impotent. In our childhood*-in our childhood means, say, eighty years ago, or say, a hundred years ago-there was no motorcar. And now, wherever you go, in any country, you see thousands and millions of car. This is recklessness. Hundreds years ago they could do without motorcar, and now they cannot live without a car. In this way, unnecessarily, they're increasing bodily or material necessities of life. This is recklessness. And the leaders will say, "Stop this nonsense, come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness," nobody will care. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. This is called blind leader leading blind followers. They do not know that both of them are bound up by the strict, stringent laws of nature. [break] ...how the laws of nature is working. They are completely in ignorance. They do not know. This is modern civilization. The laws of nature must work in its own way. You care for it or do not care for it, that is your business, but the laws of nature will work. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. But these rascals, they do not know how the laws of nature will work. They are endeavoring artificially for, foolishly, to overcome the laws of nature. This is science, rascal's science, which is impossible, but they are trying. This is called rascaldom. Stupidity. Do the scientists not say like that? "We are trying to overcome." Rascal, you'll never be able to do that. But this rascaldom is going on. And they're applauding, "Oh, very good, very good, very good." "Oh, you are going to the moon planet." But after all endeavor, the grapes are sour: "It is not useful." That's all. You know the story? The jackal? He tried for the grapes, jumping, jumping, jumping. When it was failure, he said, "Oh, it is useless. It is sour, no use." (laughter) So they are doing like that. The jackals are jumping, that's all. And we can see how these rascals are jumping uselessly. (laughter) So we are warning people not to follow these silly jackals. Be prudent and be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That will make your life successful. Hari-śauri: You want to go for a walk now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This is Ulain. He is from the Ivory Coast in Africa. And he is very sincere, and he is also attempting to start Kṛṣṇa consciousness in Africa in the Ivory Coast. Prabhupāda: Very good. Yogeśvara: He had a question for you. *Prabhupāda: First of all, you remain here for some time. Be trained up. Because every one of us, we have followed the silly jackals. Now we have to follow Kṛṣṇa. Janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's advice. First of all, let your personal life be successful, then try to do good to others. The, all over the world, they have simply followed the silly jackals. Now we have to follow Kṛṣṇa. When you are trained up to follow Kṛṣṇa, then our life is successful. Then you can do something. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. We have to follow Kṛṣṇa alone. Not all these rascals, silly jackals. Then our life is successful. Kṛṣṇa can give you all guidance. In all respective necessities of life, there is everything complete. We haven't got to follow the silly jackals. So here is a nice place, you stay here and forget the silly jackals and take to Kṛṣṇa alone or His devotees. Then you can start very nicely a center anywhere. That is the duty of everyone. We should open hundreds and thousands of centers all over the world. But one who is going to open, he must be first of all trained up. Translator: He's wondering, he's convinced about Kṛṣṇa consciousness himself, but he is wondering why in a country or a continent like Africa, which is not so scientifically or technologically developed... Prabhupāda: There is no need of. Translator: There is no need. So he is wondering why we only have two temples in Africa. Is it because... Prabhupāda: Because language difficulty. Translator: Language difficulty. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, there is no difficulty. Still, even without language, without talking, if you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone will follow. And give them prasādam, they will take. And that will be good preaching. It doesn't require language or anything. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and give them nice prasāda. They will take. That will be good preaching. But who is chanting, he must be a sincere devotee. Then his chanting will be effective. A gramophone machine will not do. He must be realized, then his chanting will be effective. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ [SB 3.25.25]. He must behave just like a pure Vaiṣṇava. Then if he chants, his chanting will be effective. Just like electricity. If I am surcharged with electricity, I touch, you also become electric. And if he touches, he'll become. But if one is not in touch with electricity, then it will not act. So one must be electrified. Then if he touches somebody, he'll be electrified. If there is no electricity, simply by touching, he'll not do. *Translator: He says that on the Ivory Coast, this country, until he becomes electrified, he knows that the President of the country is very favorable to our movement, he has the Bhagavad*-gītā and he thinks that we should open a temple there. Prabhupāda: Immediately do it. Immediately do it. I am simply explaining the process. But do it immediately, Kṛṣṇa will give you power. If you are sincere, you'll be electrified. There is no doubt. So? Hari-śauri: Go for a walk? Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 4, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm) Prabhupāda: So what happened to the tickets? Harikeśa: The tickets are being locked up in the safe right now. They're going to..., they're going to bring the tickets tomorrow to this city called Tours, which is very near by. They have an Air France office, and we can have it converted(?) there. So everything's all right for Saturday. Prabhupāda: So we shall go by the same plane? Harikeśa: Yes, everybody goes in the same plane. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jayatīrtha: Jaya [break] Hari-śauri: This is the first pamphlet that you ever printed? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: I mean in the West? Prabhupāda: No, before coming here. Hari-śauri: Oh, then you brought it with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: Says, "Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, India's message of peace and good will. Sixty volumes of elaborate English version by Tridandi Goswami A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. Carried by the Scindia Steam Navigation Co. Ltd., Bombay, all over the world for scientific knowledge of God." Then it says, "The sufferings of the entire human society can at once be brought under control simply by individual practice of bhakti-yoga, a simple and easy process of chanting the holy name of God. Every country, every nation and every community throughout the world has some conception of the holy name of God, and as such either the Hindus or the Muhammadans or the Christians, everyone can easily chant the holy name of God in a meditative mood, and that will bring about the required peace and good will in the present problematic human society. Any inquiry in this connection will be gladly answered by Śrī Swamiji. The Hindus generally chant the holy name of God in sixteen chain of transcendental sound composed of thirty-two alphabets as Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. The Vedic literatures like the Upaniṣads and the Purāṇas do recommend chanting of the above-mentioned sixteen holy names at a stretch, and Lord Śrī Caitanya, whose cult of chanting the holy name of God gave special importance on these transcendental sounds. In this age of Kali, or the age of hate, hypocrisy, corruption and quarrel, the only remedial measure is that every man should chant the holy name of the Lord, both individually and collectively. The glories of the holy name have been described by Śrī Caitanya in His eight verses of Sikṣāṣṭaka, which run as follows: 1) Glory to the Śrī Kṛṣṇa Saṅkīrtana, which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years together, and thus the fire of conditional life of repeated birth and death is extinguished. Such saṅkīrtana movement is the prime benediction for the humanity at large because it spreads rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of transcendental knowledge, it increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it helps to have a taste of the full nectariṇe for which always anxious we are. 2) O my Lord, Your holy name can render all benediction upon the living being, and therefore you have hundreds and millions of names like Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, etc. In these transcendental names you have invested all your transcendental potencies, and there is no hard-and-fast rules for chanting these holy names. O my Lord, You have so kindly made easy approach to You by Your holy names, but unfortunate as I am, I have no attraction for them. 3) One can chant the holy names of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking himself as lower than the straw in the streets, tolerant more than the tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and being ready to offer all kinds of respects to others. 4) O almighty Lord, I have no desire for accumulating wealth, nor I have any desire to enjoy beautiful women, neither I want any number of followers of mine. What I want only is that I may have your causeless devotional service in my life, birth after birth. 5) O the son of Mahārāja Nanda, I am Your eternal servitor, and although I am so, somehow or another I have fallen in the ocean of birth and death. Please therefore pick me up from the ocean of death and fix me up as one of the atoms of Your lotus feet. 6) O my Lord, when shall my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing incessantly by chanting Your holy name, and when all the holes of hair on my body will have eruptions by the recitation of Your name? 7) O Govinda, feeling your separation I am considering a moment as twelve years or more than that, and tears flowing down my cheeks like torrents of rain. I am feeling all vacant in the world without Your presence. 8) I do not know anyone except Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He shall remain as such even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or He may make me broken-hearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything, but He is always my worshipful Lord, unconditionally. Prabhupāda: Who? *Hari-śauri: It doesn't give who is speaking, just the quotes. "The editor's vast and deep study of the subject and critical insight are reflected in these notes. We have no doubt that with the publication of these volumes of the rightful interpretations of the Bhāgavatam, which has been the gift of Śrī Caitanya and His Gosvāmī followers, has now been available to the English*-knowing world for the first time. The elaborate method is very helpful to the ardent student of Bhāgavatam who lack in Sanskrit language. It is admitted in all hands that Bhāgavatam is the most difficult text amongst the Purāṇas. The author richly deserves the gratitude of the devotees for his pious learned labor of love." And another one. "These volumes speak very highly of Swamiji's scholarship, and especially of his love of cultural pursuits when we look into the enormous labor or sacrifice in producing them single-handed, and that too at a ripe old age of sixty-eight. We honestly pray to the Almighty that He may spare Swamiji for all the years he may require to finish the magnum opus of sixty volumes and earn the love and gratitude of his fellow men in pursuit of divine love and grace, nay of the entire humanity. You have done a first-class work and you deserve the hearty commendation of every Indian, every Hindu. Your deep and penetrating study of the subject and your philosophic insight are reflected in this book." etc., etc. That's the whole pamphlet. Prabhupāda: Complete? Hari-śauri: Yes. You used to give this pamphlet when you first came? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: There's a very nice picture. Prabhupāda: Oh. Before coming here. *Hari-śauri: So you would be sixty*-nine then? *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-nine or seventy. (pause) Huh? Yes, this picture is nice. Hari-śauri: Taken in Germany, I think. Prabhupāda: Who is behind? Hari-śauri: There's a, this is Haṁsadūta, Vedavyāsa, and then some of the devotees, saṅkīrtana devotees. You were making a joke. [break] But you were preaching before that in India though. Prabhupāda: Not very much. Oh, yes, that Back to Godhead. Hari-śauri: In Vṛndāvana you were just translating? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: The library party said that everywhere in Delhi they went, they found that you had already placed your three volumes of Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Yes. In American also. The Congress Library purchased nineteen sets. Hari-śauri: Which library? Prabhupāda: Congress Library. Hari-śauri: Oh, Congress. The one in Washington? The Library of Congress? Prabhupāda: Or there is a branch in India. Hari-śauri: That is where they have your original Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Hari-śauri: The first copy, they have it in Washington there. Prabhupāda: American government is good organizations. (pause) From 1954 to '66 I struggled very hard. Alone. Hari-śauri: Twelve years. Prabhupāda: Yes. Twelve years means one yuga. Hari-śauri: One... Prabhupāda: One yuga. And big yuga, another. Hari-śauri: One yuga? Prabhupāda: Yes. In the ordinary. Hari-śauri: Oh, the term is used differently? it can be used in different ways? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: We always think of one yuga as being like Kali*-yuga, or... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a big yuga, this is small yuga. Hari-śauri: It's very fortunate for us that you were so determined. Prabhupāda: (long pause) They have got so many cars. Hari-śauri: Actually, I think most of our centers have got many, many vans and cars. Prabhupāda: That means they are rich. Hari-śauri: Just like in India they used to measure wealth by how many cows, (laughs) in the West they measure wealth by how many cars. Prabhupāda: And we have both. Cows and cars, both. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: So the devotees like this evening class? Hari-śauri: They like? Prabhupāda: Evening class. Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, it's a very enlivening program. In the evening it's very nice out of doors. It's warm from the day. No one falls asleep. Except for the children, and that's very good because then they're quiet. Prabhupāda: Small children, they also clap and dance on the lap of the mother, they were smiling. Very fortunate children, otherwise from the birth, associating with devotees... (long pause) Nowadays cheating is a good qualification, huh? Hari-śauri: Yes. It's their only qualification. Prabhupāda: If I cheat somebody and get some money, you are very expert. *Hari-śauri: Top*-class businessman. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hari-śauri: First*-class scientist. And the best politician. Just like in America, once they'd found Nixon was cheating, now they're investigating one man after another, and every one, they're finding all the same. Prabhupāda: America, cheating is a policy. How a real estate man, lawyer, they're simply planning how to cheat. Hari-śauri: The lawyers are the worst because they know the law. So they know how to cheat in such a way that they can stay within the law. They said Ambarīṣa's lawyer cheated us out of so many things when we got that Detroit property. (end) *Meeting with Italian Printer-*-August 5, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm) Prabhupāda: Very nice. Hare Kṛṣṇa, thank you. Bhagavān: He has worked very... He's been trying very hard to get the Kṛṣṇa book out, but he left a little too early. Prabhupāda: Never mind. *Bhagavān: He told me that Prabhupāda was remarking how nice the Dutch Bhagavad*-gītā was. He says that the next books he will print will be even nicer. Translator: He's very happy to meet you, he says. He wasn't expecting it. He had many questions to ask you, a few questions, but he saw that you were tired today, so... Prabhupāda: No, no, I'm not tired Translator: He says he has very much appreciation for all that we're doing here, for all of our activities, but he's wondering what is the actual freedom we're getting from all these activities, what is the actual goal, and what is the freedom we derive from doing these activities? Prabhupāda: So, explain what is the goal. Translator: What is our definition of liberty, freedom, spiritual? Prabhupāda: Liberty means whatever you like, you can do. That is liberty. But at the present moment, you cannot do that. Just like you want to go to the moon planet, you cannot do that. But when you are spiritually liberated, you can go anywhere you like. Still, in this material world there is a planet which is called Siddhaloka. The inhabitants of that planet, they go from any planet to any planet. But still, they can not go to the spiritual world. But Nārada Muni, he can travel anywhere. He travels over all the spiritual world and material world. There is no restriction. Translator: He says this freedom to go anywhere and everywhere... Prabhupāda: This is one of the items, there are so many others. Translator: So he's pointing out that when one acts in complete freedom, he follows a path, a definite path to attain a certain truth. Prabhupāda: You get a spiritual body, that means freedom, no condition. Translator: But he's asking where we're finding that truth. Can we find it only in the scriptures, in following all the regulative principles we're following day after day, or can we find also that truth by following our own path, by keeping our own freedom to do whatever we like? Prabhupāda: No, you have no freedom. You have to accept some way for freedom. Translator: He says that this very truth is contained in the scriptures. So right from the beginning, to start with, he has to accept the scriptures. Bhagavān: He is printing the scriptures, so he must accept them. Yogeśvara: He finds it difficult to accept that the truth is something that you can put down in black and white. He seems to feel that it's more something you can realize through meditation. Prabhupāda: How you'll realize? Unless you learn ABCD, how you can realize truth? Translator: He's saying that we believe in the spiritual truth, but does that mean that our material truth does not exist? Prabhupāda: It is conditional. Just like your body exists for a certain days only. But it is not eternal. But you, soul, you are eternal. Translator: For the truth, since each one finds the truth in himself, does that mean that the truth is different for each person? Each person has his truth. Prabhupāda: Yes, he's truth, he's soul, but he thinks as untruth, he thinks he's body. Translator: He says that the truth is one, but as individuals we all realize that truth at different levels. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Truth is one. Translator: He says in terms of knowledge, one has a higher knowledge of that truth and one has a lower. Prabhupāda: That is different thing, but truth is one. Just like top floor is one. And one has gone few steps, another hundred steps, one has got ten steps, that is depending. But top is one. Bhūgarbha: Can he find the truth on his level, because he hasn't arrived at your level. Prabhupāda: How he can? If the top floor is hundred steps, how you can get it at ten steps? Bhagavān: The point is that he has to at least be aiming in the right direction. Prabhupāda: Yes, that right direction you can take everybody's going, but one who has gone ten steps and one who has gone thousand steps, they are not equal. (man says "d'accord, d'accord.") What is "d'acca?" Translator: He's agreeing. Prabhupāda: So, truth is one. Everyone is trying to go to the truth. Somebody has gone ten steps, somebody has hundred steps, but to cover all the steps, say one thousand steps. So unless you have passed one thousand steps, you cannot reach to the truth. Translator: He says it's always been difficult for him to keep walking or climbing up the stairs in the right direction. *Prabhupāda: So we shall give him a lift, one second. You haven't got to go step by step. We shall give immediately, one minute. If you refuse to take the advantage of the lift, that's your choice. Kṛṣṇa personally says sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyaḥ [Bg. 18.66]. Immediately, one second. But we will not accept. That is our misfortune. Translator: He says it's difficult for him. Prabhupāda: Why difficult? Obstinacy. It is not difficult, it is obstinacy. "I'll not take," obstinacy. It is not difficult, it is obstinacy. A child can take. Translator: He says for a child it is actually simple because he's pure and can accept everything we present to him. But he says for us who are older and already engaged in so many contaminated activities... Prabhupāda: No, there is no question. It is apratihatā. It cannot be checked by old age or any material condition. He can accept. Translator: (translating) It's not up to me, though. Prabhupāda: Apratihatā. Translator: He says we're always forcing him to take prasādam. This is not freedom. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes, this child has to be forced to do something. For his interest. Bhagavān: Prabhupāda once gave the analogy sometimes when the horse is sick, the doctor takes the pill in the hand, he puts it down the throat. Prabhupāda: No, we are prepared. Just like horse is not prepared to take the medicine. But four men force him to take the medicine. Nobody was crying for this edition of Bhāgavata, but we are forcing, "You must read. You must take." We are printing and forcing everyone. French edition, Bhāgavata's edition, they were not dying for this book, but this is our force. Translator: He says thank you for this first meeting, I hope we will meet again, and when we do I will make these books even look nicer. Prabhupāda: Very good. Do that. That will be service to Kṛṣṇa. The more you... Translator: He says he's making the effort in order to know better. Prabhupāda: That is nice. *Bhagavān: Tomorrow we have the schedule of events. At nine o'clock we begin with the initiations, and we'll have the purification with water, and Pṛthu*-putra Mahārāja is going to give the lecture on the ten offenses. Then everyone will come back in at ten o'clock and we'll have the bathing beginning then. And that, Jayatīrtha and I figured'd be about an hour. So we thought that perhaps towards the end of that, maybe around quarter to eleven, you'd like to come down and either participate in the bathing or give lecture at that time. And then afterwards the Deities will go back on the altar and we'll give the names outside. Is that all right? Jayatīrtha: You don't have to come outside for giving the names. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Give him this garland Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is another admirer from Switzerland. Hari-śauri: He can put it in some water, then it will blossom. (end) *Room Conversationwith Professor Francois Chenique-*-August 5, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm) Hari-śauri: No, this is not him. This is a devotee. *Yogeśvara: Professor's upstairs putting on a dhotī. He brought his daughter. Professor Chenique teaches a course in Bhagavad*-gītā at the University, and he is also doing translations of Śaṅkarācārya and teaches for the Federation of Yoga. He considers himself a Christian Advaitist. [break] ...some questions regarding the publications in French. For example, on the front of Back to Godhead magazine, in the English edition and other language editions, they have kept the phrase "Godhead is light, darkness is nescience. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience." Now in French it is difficult to translate that. There is no word Godhead. And if you say "God is light," in French it sounds very impersonalist. In French, Dieux est lumiere, "God is light." Many groups say like that. We use the word Godhead, and that distinguishes us from the other groups. Now is the phrase very important, and do you want us to keep it on the front of the magazine? It should be there. Prabhupāda: There is a little difference between God and Godhead. Yogeśvara: So when we will have to try to find... Prabhupāda: Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ. Īśvara, more or less everyone, but īśvaraḥ paramaḥ, that is Godhead. The Māyāvādīs, they do not distinguish between one īśvara to another īśvara. That may be on the ordinary level, but there is parama īśvara. Yogeśvara: One possibility would be to say God the Supreme Person is light. That we can translate. Prabhupāda: God means Supreme Person. But these advaitavādī, Māyāvādīs, they have made God everyone. God means Supreme Person, that is the dictionary word. "Supreme Being." That is the dictionary meaning. God does not mean ordinary, but they have made ordinary, anyone God. "I am God, you are God, he is God." Then what is meaning of God? Yogeśvara: Therefore we say Godhead. Prabhupāda: Yes. Head man. There are many men, he is the head man. Godhead word is also there in the dictionary. You find out. *Yogeśvara: "Godhead*-being God or a God divine nature, Deity, the Godhead, God." The word is there, but the definition they've given is not very... Prabhupāda: They do not know. They do not know what is God, what is Godhead. They think all these are fictitious. Throughout the whole world they do not know what is God. Simply they know the word, that's all. What it means they do not know. That we are giving. Here is God. Godhead. Nobody knows, nobody cares to know. That is nescience. They think it is an idea, that's all. Actually there is God, there is kingdom of God, one can go and speak with Him, dance with Him. They cannot believe there are... It is beyond their poor fund of knowledge. Therefore they do not accept Kṛṣṇa as God. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. God is the Supreme Person, Supreme Being. Actually there is place where God lives. They do not know. This is first time, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are giving these ideas; otherwise, who knows it? Nobody knows it. The Christian or Muhammadan is... Nobody knows. And religion means to accept God as the Supreme Person. They do not know God. Then what is meaning of religion? Religion means to accept a Supreme Person as the supreme controller. That is religion. How the Supreme Person is working in manufacturing this flower, let the scientists explain. There is no brain? Just nicely painted, symmetrically, each flower of the same class; another class, another class, another class. (guests enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yogeśvara: This is Professor Francois Chenique and his daughter. They drove from Paris this morning to see you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. You can come forward. I have read your review of our book. It is very nice. (translation is given) Very nice. Your study about this tradition, Indian tradition, I think he has mentioned. Indian tradition, the whole Vedic literature... He understands English? Yogeśvara: Yes, but I should translate, he's asked me to translate. Prabhupāda: ...is to approach God. This is the Indian tradition. But, as you have mentioned Aurobindo's name, Aurobindo's idea was to make a better situation of this world. He wanted by yoga practice, a better situation of the world. But our tradition says that is not possible. Bhūgarbha: He asks what is meant by the situation in this world. *Prabhupāda: The situation is you have to suffer. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. This is a place for suffering, and that also you cannot stay here. Even if you make compromise, "All right, I shall suffer and stay," Kṛṣṇa says no. You suffer, and after you make adjustment, you will be kicked out. Bhūgarbha: He said do we have to completely leave the world? We cannot stay within the world and sanctify ourselves? Prabhupāda: You have to leave, you cannot stay. You do not want to leave, that's a fact, but you'll be kicked out. When Napoleon fought for France, he did not like to leave, but he was kicked out. I have seen in one park, there is a Napoleon Bonaparte there, France and Napoleon identified. But France is there, Napoleon is kicked out. (laughter) Bhūgarbha: He's asking that in view of that, is it possible to live a household life and at the same time a spiritual life? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Arjuna, Arjuna is a householder, he's a military man, but the greatest devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Bhūgarbha: He wants you to mention something about the translations. He wants to express his opinion about the translations that the French translators are doing of your books. Prabhupāda: He is doing? Bhūgarbha: He wants to give his opinion. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhūgarbha: He's asking permission to give his opinion. Prabhupāda: It would be very nice. *Bhūgarbha: He says it is very interesting, very important that Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam be translated in the same way as the Gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā has been translated many times into French, but the Bhāgavatam was only translated once, and that also in the last century. Prabhupāda: This is our translation? Bhūgarbha: No, it's another one. In 1800 it was translated. Prabhupāda: And they simply translation, or elaborately like we are doing? *Yogeśvara: Just translation. Sanskrit on the left*-hand page, French on the right-hand page, but no commentaries. Prabhupāda: That is difficult to understand. Yogeśvara: It was the full twelve cantos, but a very limited edition, and only available in library archives. No one has..., very few people have seen it. Bhūgarbha: He feels that the French public is very demanding in questions of editing and writing, and he feels that the French that's used in our translations should not, he said, smell of English. Sometimes French translations seem like English written in French. He said those should be in perfect French, and that in the French language there's a need to make things more compact and condensed. He's wondering if we can condense them more than in English. Prabhupāda: So one of us who knows French nicely, he can do that. But there is no difference. They are taking the ideas from English and translating. Yogeśvara: He says, Professor Chenique wishes to know, would it not be more valuable if our men spoke Sanskrit and could translate directly from the Sanskrit into French? *Prabhupāda: There is no much difference. Sanskrit is there and the Sanskrit translation is there. Where is the difference? We are giving the Sanskrit and then word*-to-word translation. Bhūgarbha: He says that when one translates from Sanskrit into English and from English into French, that it's not exactly the same thing in French that it was in Sanskrit, he feels... Prabhupāda: No, if from Sanskrit to French can be translated, I have no objection. But we have no such arrangement. Yogeśvara: We have no Sanskrit scholars in French yet, no. Prabhupāda: Not only scholar, not only scholar, he must be a realized soul. Simply scholars will not help, simply scholarship will not help. There are many Sanskrit scholars in India. There are many Sanskrit scholars, original Sanskrit scholars in India, they cannot understand Bhāgavata. Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique's point is that we are seeking to introduce these books on a university level, and there's a certain standard that must be met. Prabhupāda: What is that standard? Bhūgarbha: He's just saying that the style of French, he feels that it's too many words. Prabhupāda: French, he must be French, expert in language, at the same time, a devotee. Then he can explain. Otherwise no. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's secretary, Svarūpa Dāmodara, he asked that brāhmaṇa, bhāgavata paḍā giyā bhāgavata sthāne:(?) "Go and study Bhāgavata from bhāgavata." I have discussed this in the beginning of translation of Bhāgavata. So Bhāgavata, that is the limit of education. Vidyā bhāgavata vadhiḥ.(?) One has to study and take education up to *Bhāgavatam*. That is, if one understands *Bhāgavatam*, he's finished his education. *Bhūgarbha: He agrees. He's saying that he wishes*-he's not criticizing in any way-but he wants that your books have a better audience, then more people will accept them. And he feels that if the French, the way that the French has been written, is changed, we'll have a better audience, it will reach higher. *Prabhupāda: But that is from scholarship point of view. But our point is this Bhāgavata must be presented by bhāgavata. And there is no much scholarship required. Just like Bhāgavata begins with the words janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. This Sanskrit word means the Absolute Truth is that from where everything emanates. Now that Absolute Truth further explained: anvayād itarataś ca abhijñaḥ svarāṭ. That Absolute Truth is aware of everything, directly and indirectly, of all this creation. In this way, if you step*-by-step study, it is not very difficult so far the word meanings are concerned, but it is a question of realization. Unless one is realized, he cannot explain properly. That is the secret. Therefore we have given the life of Caitanya Mahāprabhu in our Bhāgavatam because He's living Bhāgavatam. Janadradhi: : His point, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that your purports, you are repeating teachings, but this is wanted. His point is that in the French language, the French language cannot accept such repetitions. So he's asking if you could compact more your purports. But we want to translate your purports with the repetitions because we know they are wanted. Yogeśvara: The English purport that you give very often will repeat one point for a clear understanding to the reader. Stylistically, in French this is difficult. It is not the accepted standard. French is generally more compact, something is said only one time. So Professor Chenique is hoping that he will see in our future translations a better French style in the translation. And Janadradhi, who is the translator, one of our translators, explains that our point is that we wish to keep your intention by repeating the point so that the reader will understand, because it is being said several times. *Prabhupāda: That is the system in Vedic ways. Just like you see Bhagavad*-gītā. In different way Kṛṣṇa has explained the immortality of the soul. You take Bhagavad-gītā, that portion. Find out that. What is that verse? Bhūgarbha: Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit? Hari-śauri: Before that. Describes negatively in different ways of understanding the soul. Prabhupāda: Yes, positively, negatively. Bhūgarbha: Prabhupāda: The same thing is being explained in a different way. Bhūgarbha: The question seems to be a very technical one of just French language. He's not objecting to the... Prabhupāda: I've no experience of the French language, I'm talking of the Sanskrit language. (laughter) Bhūgarbha: If we give him one purport and see how he would change it. Prabhupāda: There are so many purports you can. (professor reads one purport in French) Bhūgarbha: That one was all right. (laughter) *Professor Chenique: I was, up to recent time, I was commenting Bhagavad*-gītā in the camping. For eleven years every summer I am commenting the Gītā in the camping. I commend very warmly this edition of the Bhagavad-gītā. I think it's the best that you may find in France. But when I'm reading the commentary for my students, I find some sentences which are not good French. I think because it is not a very good style, and I hope it won't be that matter with... (French) Bhūgarbha: Perhaps Professor Chenique could go over our translations and make any suggestions. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. *Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique is offering to re*-read our publications. To read them and when he sees something he thinks can be corrected, he will make some indication. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. It is welcome. *Yogeśvara: (devotee enters) This is Hayeśvara. Hayeśvara dāsa, in charge of the Dutch publications, Dutch translator. He has done the Bhagavad*-gītā, this edition, in Dutch. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Thank you very much. Bhūgarbha: This is the Dutch translation. Professor Chenique made the comment... Prabhupāda: The idea is, suppose I am in France. I do not know French language, but there is fire in my room, and I have to call my neighbors. So somehow or other I call and take their help. (laughter) Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique wishes to know whether we cannot do one very small pocketbook edition that will sell very inexpensively. Something like I think in India they have done. Hari-śauri: Like the abridged version in America they did? Yogeśvara: No, something like this, very small. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. It is nice proposal. Hari-śauri: Like that Chinese one? First six chapters. Prabhupāda: Where is that Chinese? Bhūgarbha: He feels that if we bring out a very small, compact edition, it will sell very nicely. Prabhupāda: First of all, we printed seven hundred copies. And now we are going to print five thousand. Bhūgarbha: He said we're making the highest record in distribution. Professor Chenique: Oh, yes, for this kind of book. Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique thanks you very much for receiving him, and he says that he is... Prabhupāda: Many thanks for his coming. Yogeśvara: ...he is very happy to see you, and he does not have any questions. He appreciates very much the Vaiṣṇava point of view. Prabhupāda: Take this to the daughter. Yogeśvara: And he thinks that seeing the decline of religion in the West he says it is very important that we are pushing on this mission as we are doing. Bhūgarbha: He doesn't think he'll be able to follow the life of the Vaiṣṇavas, because our life is too difficult. Prabhupāda: That attitude will help him. That humbleness, that "I cannot follow," that will help. Bhūgarbha: He says he has a tendency more of a jñānī, and his training has been according to Śaṅkarite and also Buddhist lines. But still he appreciates very much bhakti, and he is very happy to meet the devotees, and at the same time he's very depressed to meet all these intellectuals who know so many things but cannot understand anything. *Prabhupāda: Without becoming jñānī, nobody can become bhakta. Without knowledge, if one has become bhakta, he's sentimentalist. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, find out this verse. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām [Bg. 18.54]. Bhūgarbha: He asks, What about the opposite, people becoming devotees without knowing anything? He asking... Prabhupāda: No, devotee cannot be without knowing anything. A devotee means, a devotee means he knows everything. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. This is Vedic injunction. One who knows the Absolute, he knows everything. Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? That verse, does that mean that one who is neophyte... *Prabhupāda: Neophyte is neophyte. Why do you bring him to become a devotee? A devotee is different. A "one plus one equal to two," he's not mathematician. He's learning. There is hope one day he'll be a big mathematician. There are three stages, kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī, uttama-adhikārī. So when you speak of devotee, that is this uttama-adhikārī. So he knows everything. Rather, the so-called jñānī, he does not know. Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa. The so-called jñānī, he does not know what is Personality of Godhead. He's impersonalist. Therefore he is still unaware of the Absolute Truth. Therefore he's not jñānī. His jñāna, his knowledge, is lacking. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, Bhūgarbha: He says that any person on the path of knowledge who rejects the Personality of Godhead, his knowledge is finished. Prabhupāda: That is sublime knowledge. When you talk with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, dance with, that is sublime perfection. Otherwise, you will have to dance with the dog. Bhūgarbha: He's asking that since he first read the *Gītā* when he was very young, since that time he's been trying to compact paths of jñāna and bhakti and follow the teachings of all the great religions. And he's wondering if he should continue on that same path. *Prabhupāda: No, jñāna means that to understand the Absolute Truth. If you do not understand the Absolute Truth, what is the meaning of this jñāna? That means knowledge is imperfect. But if you want to know the Absolute Truth, ultimately, then bhakti is required. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā: bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. If you want to know the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Being, then you have to go through bhakti. Jñāna, so-called jñāna, bhakti includes. Just like bhakti includes everything, but jñāna does not include bhakti. It is imperfect. In jñāna there is little touch of bhakti, but in bhakti there is full jñāna. Because unless you... Absolute Truth is realized in three stages, brahmeti, paramātmeti, bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. So those who are on the stage of Brahman and Paramātmā, they're not in the Absolute Truth. Part of it. But when one understands Bhagavān, then he understands Paramātmā and Brahman. That is full knowledge. There are three things-sat, cit, ānanda. So Brahman realization is sat. Paramātmā realization is cit. But ānanda is not there. But if he does not get ānanda, then falls down. Bhūgarbha: He says Christianity says the same thing. Not the Christianity of today, but original Christianity said the same thing. *Prabhupāda: Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). This is the Vedānta. We are, as spirit soul, being part and parcel of the Supreme, ānanda is our goal, ānanda, blissfulness. But that blissfulness, you cannot get simply by understanding sat-cit. You must come to the platform of ānanda. That is Kṛṣṇa. So because these so-called jñānīs, they do not get ānanda, they do not have the entrance into the ānanda platform, they come to this material ānanda, this material pleasure. Therefore they take to this hospitality or opening a school or philanthropic work, another type of this material pleasure. Therefore Śaṅkarācārya recommended: *Yogeśvara: Also that verse in Bhāgavatam, vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti*-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ [SB 1.2.7]. *Prabhupāda: Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti*-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ [SB 1.2.7], find out this verse. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. I don't see Bhagavān dāsa. Why? Bhūgarbha: He's organizing the ceremony for tomorrow. Prabhupāda: The difference is, a bhakta, pure bhakta, he has jñāna. But a jñānī may not have bhakti. Yogeśvara: Once Professor Chenique asked me whether we thought it was possible for a Christian like himself to also realize the perfection of Vaiṣṇavism. Prabhupāda: Why not? Christianity in Vaiṣṇavism. Christianism is Vaiṣṇavism. Anyone who accepts the supremacy of God, he's a Vaiṣṇava. So Christian, Christianity, "God is great," they say. So that is Vaiṣṇavism, "God is great." Professor Chenique: Oui, but now the Christians say that God is dead. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhūgarbha: Now the Christians say God is dead. *Prabhupāda: No, that is not Christianity. If you can change, there is no religion. That is mental concoction. As soon as you make change, we reject immediately, useless. Religion (is) the world of God. Religion means the word of God. You cannot change the word of God. If you change the word of God, that is material, that is not religion. You cannot change the word of God by your votes. That is useless. If you say that religion..., religion means the dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Find out this verse, Sixth Canto. There is no Sixth Canto there? Hari-śauri: We have one volume, but it's the wrong volume. We have Volume Two. *Prabhupāda: Oh. The definition of religion is just like law. Law can be given by the government. You cannot make law. If you make at home some law, nobody will touch it. It is not obligatory. But if government says "Keep to the right," it is obligatory. This is law. So religion, you cannot manufacture religion. Religion means the word of God. And if yearly or quarterly you change the words, that is not religion. That is not religion. That is mental concoction. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. No change. Others, they are interpreting in their own way. That is not Bhagavad-gītā. That is something else. (to devotee:) Keep it there. He will take. In the words of God there is no question of changing. You cannot change. As soon as you make a change, immediately it is material; *it has nothing to do with spiritual world. The same example, the law of government is one, and if you make change, that is not law. Government says "Keep to the right," you have to keep to the right. You cannot make "Keep to the left," no. That is nowadays happening*-which edition of Christianity? There are so many. Therefore it is, the purport of Christianity is lost. That is lost. You have, what that verse I wanted? Hari-śauri: They couldn't find the book. *Prabhupāda: Oh, they couldn't. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. This is the verse. Religion means the words given by God. But they have no idea what is God, whether He can speak or He's a dull, dumb. That is the difficulty. The Māyāvādīs, they say God has no mouth. So how He will speak? He has no eyes, He has no ears. Then who will hear my prayer? That is Māyāvādī definition. But Vedas say apāni-pādo javana gṛhīta.(?) That both things, that He has no leg, but he can walk faster than anyone. He has no ear, but He can hear everything. Just like we have got this ear, but I cannot hear what is going on next room. But God has no ear, but He can hear here, there, everywhere. This is Vedic definition. This is Vedic definition. Śṛṇoti akarṇa. He has no ears, but He hears everything. That means that it is not the fact that He has no ear, but He has no limited ear like me. And therefore described sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. You cannot compare with this body. Because sat means eternal. So this body is not eternal. So when God has no body means He hasn't got a body like this. He is sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. His body is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge. But He has body. You cannot say impersonal. But His body is of different quality. Just like you have got body, but you cannot swim in the..., or you cannot remain within the water. Similarly, he has got body, but not the body like this, perishable. Sac-cid-ānanda, this body is perishable. But He has got imperishable. Avyayātmā. We have to understand in that way. Not that because it is stated He has no body that means He is zero. No, he has got body, but not body not like this. Bhūgarbha: Professor Chenique's suggesting that in the Middle Ages there were many philosophers who also were researching the same questions of the body of God and how His body is different from ours, and they came to exactly the same conclusions as are mentioned in the *Bhāgavatam*, so he's suggesting some of our devotees should read some of these books so we'll be able to in our preaching show the French people these conceptions that God has a body are not foreign conceptions, and actually even European philosophers in the Middle Ages were saying the same things. Prabhupāda: No, you can convince by your words. It is not necessary that you have to read so many other words. If you are yourself convinced, then you can convince others by your words. The fact. The same example, when there is fire actually you can express it by any word. *Bhūgarbha: He feels that it's because he has read all these books during his youth, now he's able to appreciate Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Bhūgarbha: He feels that because he read all of these other books during his youth that now he's come to the point he can appreciate Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who is after truth, he'll appreciate truth. That's a fact. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi [SB 1.1.1]. That is the Bhāgavata beginning. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. If one is after truth, he'll appreciate truth wherever it is. Every point, from any angle of vision, those who are searching after truth, everything is explained. Primarily in the Bhagavad*-gītā, and elaborately in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So about the Christian religion, what is the conception of God? *Bhūgarbha: (translating) If I speak in English then I'll say that God is the father, the son and the Holy Ghost*-not one person, but three persons. But if I want to say the same thing in Sanskrit, then I'll say sac-cid-ānanda. Prabhupāda: Three persons? God is three persons? *Bhūgarbha: Father, the son and the Holy Spirit. But he says that that means the same thing, as far as he's concerned, as sac*-cid-ānanda. Prabhupāda: So why three persons? God is one. Expansion, you can say expansion. Just like brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti [SB 1.2.11]. The person is one. In the dictionary it is said, "God, the Supreme Being," is it not? Person is one. So person is one, now His expansion, His son, His spirit, what is that? Holy Spirit... That is another thing. But the person is one, the Supreme. What is the definition of God? Just see. Bhūgarbha: He said that in Christianity it's more complicated than that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Person is one, but they have no idea the Supreme Person can expand. What is that? Hari-śauri: It says, "Superhuman being, worshiped as having power over nature and human fortunes; Deity." Prabhupāda: God? Hari-śauri: Yes, this is the definition of God. "Superhuman being." Prabhupāda: Human being? Hari-śauri: "Superhuman being. Worshiped as having power over nature and over human fortunes." Bhūgarbha: Demigods. Prabhupāda: No other definition? God Supreme Being is not there? Hari-śauri: "Supreme Being, creator and ruler of the universe." *Prabhupāda: Yes, Supreme Being. Supreme Being means one. There cannot be many Supreme. But He can expand. This is defined in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca [Bs. 5.33]. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam, ananta-rūpam, many millions of expansions. Ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam, but He's the original person. So the Supreme Being is one, but He has got multi-expansions. That is another thing. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca [Bs. 5.33]. Bhūgarbha: He says Christianity is actually coherent, but one has to study it very deeply to understand. Prabhupāda: Hm? Bhūgarbha: He says just like Vaiṣṇavism is also coherent, but one has to study very deeply. Otherwise, one cannot see it. He said if we examine all the religions and find out the axiomatic truths of every religion, we'll see how they are all coherent. Prabhupāda: No. The thing is that religion means to understand God. If one does not understand God, then his religion is still defective. Religion means to understand God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje ahaituky apratihatā [SB 1.2.6]. When you understand God and your relationship with God, then it is perfection of religion. Bhūgarbha: He said that he feels very thankful that you've given him such a long darśana. He's very happy that you've given so much enlightenment in many subjects. He's just passing through with his daughter. He'd like to stay tomorrow to see the installation of the Deities, but he has to go to a Tibetan temple in the south of France. On Saturday he has to be there, so he has to drive, and he said that he's found the Tibetans are also very good devotees. Prabhupāda: Very good. Jaya. (end) *Morning Walk at Niavaran Park-*-August 8, 1976, Tehran Jñānagamya: He was translating early this morning. Devotee (1): What time did he wake up? Jñānagamya: I don't know, he was up when I got up. Devotee (2): He doesn't sleep at night anymore. He told Ātreya Ṛṣi he only sleeps two hours. Devotee (1): He takes rest during the middle of the day? *Jñānagamya: How is Mahārāja? Has he been sick here? Hari*-keśava,(?) has he been sick? Devotee (3): Always sick. Devotee (4): What is this park? Jñānagamya: It's called Niavaran Park. There's a palace here called Niavaran Palace. The Shah has several palaces. This is the one where he usually meets visiting diplomats, heads of state. And this is the park that adjoins that palace. The palace is over beyond that wall. *Nava*-yauvana: Jaya, this is where he's getting off. (conversation continues outside car) Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is His Majesty's palace. This building is the servants' quarters, which has the best granite. [break] Prabhupāda: ...that this body which we are taking so much care, will leave automatically when the time is finished. And I'll have to accept another body. Useless. The body, which I am taking so much care, will leave me. I'll not have to say, "Body, you leave me," but the body will leave me. When my period... Just like the house rented under lease, and as soon as the lease is over you have to vacate that house, or forcibly the house owner will oblige you to vacate. So what is the use of becoming so much attached to the body? What is the answer? *Nava*-yauvana: There is no use. *Prabhupāda: Every one of us, we are attached to the body, and on account of being attached to the body the material activities are going on. These motorcars are running, karmīs are going here and there, what is the purpose? To maintain the road? Divasa śarīra*-sāje. Miche nida-baśe gelo re rāti divasa śarīra-sāje. The body is given rest at night to revive, and daytime the activities for the matter of maintaining the body. But despite my all endeavor to maintain this body, it will not stay. It will give up my company and I'll have to accept another. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So Bali Mahārāja says "What is the use of such endeavor?" Therefore big, big saintly persons, they do not care for the body. Lie down anywhere. But they are very serious about spiritual advancement. And people in general, they are interested in maintaining the body. It is not that we should be neglectful to the body. That example is also there. Just like we require fruits and flowers. So if we neglect the tree, there will be no fruits and flower. If we cut the tree, it will dry up and there will be no fruits and flowers. The fruits and flowers, this human body, the fruits and flowers mean self-realization. Bali Mahārāja analyzes the family. He says family means rogues and thieves. Whatever you want, they'll take away. The pickpocket takes from your pocket and he becomes a criminal, and when the wife takes thousand dollars from your pocket, you do not consider her to be criminal. You laugh, "Oh, you have taken the money?" "Yes, I've taken." The business is a pickpocket. But in one case we say "criminal," and one case we say "friend." The business is the same. Svajanākhya-dasyu. Actually thieves and rogues, but we have named them "relatives." Jñānagamya: They are just like us, they are related to us. We are also thieves and rogues, and they are related to us. *Prabhupāda: This is family relation. Ṛktha*-haraiḥ svajanākhya-dasyubhiḥ. Ṛktha-haraiḥ(?). Their only business is that you earn money with hard labor, and they'll take away. Their business is to take away. And they have got legal right. Dāya, dāya-bhāga. The son has got the right, legal right, to take whatever the father has accumulated. Nobody will say "No, you cannot take." No, he has the right, and so far wife is concerned, her business is to extend your condition, material condition. When one is alone, brahmacārī, he has no condition, he lives freely. But as soon as he's married, so many obligations. Ato gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittaiḥ [SB 5.5.8], must have a nice house, must have good land, good source of income. And then if you have got house and good source of income, then you call friends to oblige them. Then get children, give them education, put them in nice condition of life, get them married, again grandchildren, and so on, so on. That means these material conditions which have embarrassed me, that business is very nicely done by the wife for increasing my embarrassment. Nowadays nobody takes responsibility of family. That is another thing. But marriage means to take so many responsibilities. That is another condition of material life. Then home, people are sacrificing so much for home, for country, for nation. That also will be finished with the end of this body. When the body's ended, you are no more Iranian or American or Indian. You do not know what you are. Even if you have got attachment for the country, you can become a tree in that country. If you become animal, you are slaughtered in that country. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], even though you have got attachment, on account of changing the body your situation is changing. So in this way Bali Mahārāja analyzes the whole thing, that "What is the use of all this?" Is he right or wrong, his analysis? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very intelligent, perfect. *Prabhupāda: So when Kṛṣṇa advises, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. It is the right advice, but we cannot take it. Kṛṣṇa is the right friend, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 5.29], but we don't accept His friendship. We want to go on in our own way. [break] Jñānagamya: There is so much envy in my heart, and when I'm chanting I'm understanding the envy causes me so much distress. Yet I can't give it up. I cannot leave off these envious feelings. *Prabhupāda: That is material world, envious. That is a disease, to become envious. The spiritual world means no enviousness. That is spiritual world. And material world, there is only envious. I'm envious of you, you are envious of me. It is a society of enviousness. Dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇām, Paramo nirmatsara [SB 1.1.2]. One who is not at all envious, for him, Bhāgavata-dharma. [break] ...dharma is for the envious person. *Nava*-yauvana: Dharma is for the envious? *Prabhupāda: Yes, so*-called dharmas. Just like we have created so many dharma, Hindu dharma, Muslim dharma, Christian dharma. They are so-called. They are not dharmas. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means what is given to you by the Supreme Lord, that is dharma. Otherwise, if you manufacture some ritualistic ceremonies, some formulas, some dogmas, that is cheating. That is not religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. That is first-class religion. What is that? Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Wherefrom you learn how to love God. If you learn, "I believe this," "I believe that," "This is our ritualistic ceremony," these are all cheating. As people are cheating one another in different ways, this is another cheating. That's all. They will say, "We believe in this way," "We believe in that way." So what is that, you believe in that way? What is the fact? If you believe something wrong, is that to be taken as religion? We say tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Other religious sect, they say this is Hindu belief. It is not question of Hindu belief. It is the fact. Does it mean that a Muhammadan or Christian child does not become a boy? When Kṛṣṇa says dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā: [Bg. 2.13] just like the child is becoming boy, boy is becoming young. This is science. And why do you say it is Hindu belief? Does it mean that a Muslim or Christian child does not become a boy? What do you mean by Hindu belief? But they say it like that, Hindu belief. Is that correct if somebody says it is Hindu belief? No, it is fact, it is science. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Similarly, you have to change this body, another body. The example is given. Why do you think that because it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā it is Hindu belief? They say like that: "This is Hindu belief." What do you think? Is that Hindu belief? Dayānanda: No, it's just like you said, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's given by the Supreme Lord. Prabhupāda: Apart from Supreme Lord, it is a law of nature. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is logical, it is factual. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is the law of nature, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni. The law, nature's law is acting like that. How you can avoid the laws of nature? If some young man says, "No, no, I'll not become old man," will the law of nature excuse him? Because you does not like? You have to become old man. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Rascaldom, enviousness. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, no. Rascaldom includes everything. If you say "rascal," then he includes everything. The so*-called scientists say "Oh, after this..." The Communists, when I was talking with Professor Kotovsky, he said, "Swamiji, after death everything's finished." Such a big professor. Just see. Why everything finished? We see this life, stage by stage, one stage is coming after another, another stage is coming, another. Why do you say finished? Pradyumna: So we analyze the material body is temporary, it's no good anyways, then if, even if someone says, "Well, it may be temporary, but in this life we can get something out of it," then we analyze that other people are taking that. The wife is taking that, the children are taking that. *Prabhupāda: No, we should first of all fix up what is our business. People have taken this, that to maintain the body, to maintain the family, to earn money and protect it, these have become their business. They do not know anything else. The whole world is going on on this platform. Nationwise, communitywise, and everything. Other countries have developed, now the Shah is trying to develop equally. But what is the aim of development? The same*-motorcar and accident. That they do not know. "No. They have got motorcar. I must have motorcar." But what is the aim? Same aim. Meet accident and die. They do not know what is the aim of life. Na te viduḥ. They do not know it. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking that by adjusting this material way of life they'll be happy, that's all. This is ignorance. The whole civilization is wrong because they do not know what is the aim of life. That is the fault. If they know the aim of life, then it is all right. You live comfortably. There is no... Who asks you that you live discomfortably? You live comfortably. But you must know the aim of life. That they do not know. Ask anybody what is the aim, why you are working so hard, why you are maintaining family, why you are maintaining body, what is the aim of your life? That they do not know. [break] ...control. These things are growing on account of water. If there is no water how they will grow? So it is not in the hands of the scientists. It is in the hands of God. (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 8, 1976, Tehran Prabhupāda: These are all local fruits? Or imported? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Most of them local. Now we have a lot of local fruits. Prabhupāda: You grow banana? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, the banana is imported. Parivrājakācārya: From South America, they bring bananas. Prabhupāda: Grapes? Grapes you have got. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Grapes, apple. Where is your eldest child? Nandarāṇī: This is Candramukhī. Prabhupāda: Oh. I saw you in Los Angeles? Nandarāṇī: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have got two or three girls? Nandarāṇī: Just two. Prabhupāda: Two. Is there arrangement for preparing khicuḍi with green peas? Nandarāṇī: With mung? Ātreya Ṛṣi: With green peas. Nandarāṇī: With green peas. Yes. Prabhupāda: So make little khicuḍi and curry and okra vegetable. Nandarāṇī: All right. We have chaturi (?)and parāṭā. You want that also? Prabhupāda: Oh, you have already made? Nandarāṇī: But I can make khicuḍi, that's all right. Prabhupāda: Oh. I'll take also little parāṭā. Where is bathroom? Dayānanda: There's another room for resting. And you can go out this door, this here, and bathroom is on the other side of this resting room. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Let me show you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: This is the key to this cabinet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I put the bag in it. [break]... very expensive. Prabhupāda: This is a rented house? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What is the rent? Ātreya Ṛṣi: The rent now it is twelve hundred dollars. But of course everything is now much more expensive. So I was negotiating in New York for better arrangements, because in Iran price is going up and up and up. And I told my company that they should buy one house. And they have agreed. So there is going to be that house, we will buy something like this for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: This is very nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And also we have saved some money, we'll buy a temple also in addition to that. Prabhupāda: No, this is very nice. Dayānanda, do you like it? Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is very nice place, private, everything is so nice. In winter, what is the temperature? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very cold. Prabhupāda: Very cold. Parivrājakācārya: Yes, it snows. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Like Vṛndāvana. Isn't it like? Parivrājakācārya: It's colder than Vṛndāvana. Hari-śauri: It doesn't snow in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana I don't think less than fifty. Hari-śauri: It sometimes gets colder, I think. Nowadays anyway. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Here it gets ten, fifteen. Prabhupāda: But there is no snow in Vṛndāvana. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have plenty of snow here. Parivrājakācārya: We're very high, we're six thousand feet above sea level. Pradyumna: We've got everything. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Has it come in? Prabhupāda: Who has come? Pradyumna: Just Harikeśa and myself. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So everything is clear? Hari-śauri: The luggage and everything is here. I'll go now and see to it. Prabhupāda: So I am also very happy, Dayānanda, you are here, and you can have more facilities. You family men, you require some money also. So your present situation is very nice? Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: What they are paying you? Dayānanda: They are paying, I bring home about one thousand dollars per month. Prabhupāda: After deducting. Dayānanda: After deducting taxes. Prabhupāda: It is better than USA. You were getting six hundred there? Dayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are getting more? Why Gargamuni advised you to give up? I chastised him, "Why you have given him such advice? He's a gṛhastha, he must have some money. He has to take care of the children." Anyway, you have got better job now and better service also. Kṛṣṇa has awarded you for your service. Stick to it. Don't... If you like to serve here, you can be permanently settled. No, what is their rules? Dayānanda: It is quite easy, because they need foreigners to come and work here. Prabhupāda: So that is very, very good. Dayānanda: So they give visas very easily for working. Prabhupāda: Oh. Especially to Americans? Dayānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That's very good opportunity. Bring more Americans and start this movement nicely. Not necessarily that we have to establish a temple. We want to preach our philosophy. That is most important. Bhāgavata*-mārga. There are two ways, bhāgavata-mārga and pāñcarātriki. The bhāgavata-mārga is more important than pāñcarātriki. Pāñcarātriki is Deity worship. So do you meet many intelligent men here? No. Not very. Dayānanda: Some intelligent. People are working very hard for money, and they're very materialistic. Prabhupāda: That is everywhere in the eastern part of the world. They are after money. Dayānanda: And the foreigners who come here also, they are materialistic also. Prabhupāda: Everywhere materialistic. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Spiritualistic means siddhi, perfection. Who cares for perfection? Bring money and enjoy. That's all. Who cares for perfection? They do not know what is perfection. They think that you get money, you live comfortably as far as possible, and after death, everything's finished. Is it not? This is the philosophy. Who cares to know that there is life after death and better life, better planet, better world? This is not at all good, it is full of miseries. They are driving all day, car, but they do not think it is tiresome. They think it is pleasure. To have a car and drive whole day, they do not feel that is tiresome. They think "I have got a car, I'm driving, people are seeing. It is pleasure." Parivrājakācārya: It is madness, how they can enjoy a city like that. *Prabhupāda: But we do not deprecate. We simply say that do whatever you like, but do not forget your real business, self*-realization, ātma-tattvam. Self-realization, that is required. And if we live like cats and dogs and again become cats and dogs and pigs, that is not success. But there is chance if one does not know ātma-tattva. Nature's law will work. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So, your son is sleeping? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, this is not my son. Prabhupāda: Oh. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is salt, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is watermelon, this is a different kind of melon. You prefer it here? Prabhupāda: This is local product? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Take some? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, please, please, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If you like little salt on it? Harikeśa: Can I have the key? To lock up the passports and... Prabhupāda: What is that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is a drink, Śrīla Prabhupāda, made of some melon, different melon. Prabhupāda: This is also local? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, that is very local. Is that sweet, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, it is nice. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It can become very sweet. Sometimes it is very, very sweet. Prabhupāda: Very nice. So, very nice. Like bael. In India, like bael. So nice fruits. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can I serve the devotees, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is so nice. You can distribute this also. All the devotees. Do they eat meat very much? Parivrājakācārya: Yes, they are learning. Before ten years ago, they were, everyone was very good Muslim, and they would eat a little bit of sheep. But today they are learning the... Prabhupāda: Beef. Parivrājakācārya: Beef. Because they think the more they are like Americans, the better they are. But they have so many fruits and vegetables here, the land gives them so many wonderful things, but they think that they must eat meat. Dayānanda: There is an old poem, an old epic poem that we were told about that states that many thousands of years ago the Iranians were all vegetarian. Prabhupāda: It is Āryan culture. Iranian means Āryan. It is a apabhraṁśa of Ārya, Iraya.(?) And they are called Parsis. Parsis still, those who fled away from this place, they are just like Hindus. They have got sacred thread. In India. Parivrājakācārya: They keep a sacred fire. Prabhupāda: Still there are there? Parivrājakācārya: A few, a few temples here. Prabhupāda: They are fire worshipers, Sūrya. (indistinct) Their marriage ceremony is just like Hindus. (to someone else) Namaskāra, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Parivrājakācārya: The language is very... Prabhupāda: You have taken prasādam? Parivrājakācārya: The whole language here is very similar to Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You can read this also. This is in Sanskrit. (to Iranian student:) You understand English? Very good. Your country is very nice. So nice food, fruits. Moustafa: Nice to meet you. *Prabhupāda: Formerly, from Kashmir to central Asia, it was known as Bhū*-svarga, especially Kashmir, Bhū-svarga. Dayānanda: Heaven on earth. Prabhupāda: Yes, heaven on the earthly planet. *Parivrājakācārya: We noticed that in one of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatams you mentioned that Kardama Muni had his āśrama, Kaśyapa Muni I mean, on the shore of the Caspian Sea, which is just an hour from here by plane-it's ninety kilometers. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, Caspian Sea. This is made from a kind of fruit. *Nava*-yauvana: Yes, a kind of melon. Prabhupāda: They are saying that the moon is full of dust. And dust is so brilliant? We have to believe this? The rascals they are making this proposal. So what do you think? Dayānanda: I don't think they know actually what they are talking about, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, actually this is fact. It is similar planet like the sun, but it is surrounded by cold atmosphere, therefore it is so pleasing. And because it is far away from the sun, the distance between moon and earth is more than the distance between the sun and the earth. Therefore sun looks bigger and it looks smaller. We are contemplating having a planetarium with electric arrangement. You'll have to work. The whole planetary system is moving from east to west, and the sun, moon and... They are up and down. (to child): Come on, Hare Kṛṣṇa, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. He can speak? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, just a few words. Prabhupāda: Two years. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Almost. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have got any fruit tree in the garden? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Some pear trees, some apple. Prabhupāda: Peach? No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. We used to have a cherry tree, but it died. We also have a pomegranate. Prabhupāda: Good pomegranate? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Not very good. Prabhupāda: These boys, do they inquire about something? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Hussain Prabhu has been coming here for... Prabhupāda: Bring some spittoon. You can keep it here. They understand English? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They understand English, yes, some English. Hussain Prabhu has been coming here for a few months. He's chanting. He's a very, very pious boy. Before he came here, he was chanting names of God and following the four regulations. Prabhupāda: Very good. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very nice. And he is coming recently. He's also interested. He is a vegetarian, does not eat meat, and he's following the four regulations, and he's starting to chant now. Prabhupāda: And he... Ātreya Ṛṣi: He's been coming for two, three months. He's chanting sixteen rounds, and as I said, before he came here, he was chanting various names of God as they are prescribed in Koran. And when he saw that we were chanting names of God, he immediately became attracted. He said, "This is right." Because he knows also that from Koran he should chant the names of God. Prabhupāda: Oh. In the Koran chanting is recommended? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, definitely. *Prabhupāda: The more you chant God's name, your heart becomes cleansed. (Ātreya Ṛṣi translates) Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. So God has many names. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended God's name must be... It doesn't matter the language is different. Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktiḥ. In each name the full power of God is there. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hussain Prabhu says that his goal in life is to translate your Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, he's a very, very sincere boy. Prabhupāda: So do it immediately. Somebody, some Arabian student made some translation? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, there was some translations of *Īśopaniṣad*. Prabhupāda: Where he is, that boy? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Into Arabic. He's in Europe. He is a Palestinian boy. Hussain is asking how should this translation be done, what is your recommendation, if you have any suggestion. Prabhupāda: Of course, I am not well versed in your language, but you simply, if you understand that English and translate it into Parsi, that will do. As it is, you translate. Don't make any change. Then it will be all right. And when there is difficulty, you can ask Ātreya Ṛṣi. Harikeśa. Where is Harikeśa? Where he is? *Nava*-yauvana: Moustafa asked a question, how to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness in this country. It seems difficult to him, because the people's reaction... It's very foreign, the outward appearance of devotees is very strange to them. He wants to know how this philosophy can be spread here. Prabhupāda: The first thing is that what do you mean by Kṛṣṇa. That is to be understood. Kṛṣṇa means God. So if you have no objection to chant the name of God, then there is no difference of opinions. Now first of all, I may ask you, "What do you mean by God?" You are chanting the holy name of God, and people may ask you, "What do you mean by God?" Because especially nowadays... (aside) No, there is matches? That's all. Come near. So first question will be, "What do you mean by God?" If I, or anybody, asks you, "What do you mean by God?" Moustafa: I cannot explain, because now... Prabhupāda: But that you must explain. If you are chanting the name of God, then you must know what do you mean by God. Moustafa: When I feel, I will get spiritual, my feeling... Prabhupāda: Spiritual, what do you mean by spiritual? Moustafa: It means I put everything that is bad and dirty inside and I make it out, all of them. Prabhupāda: What is inside and what is outside? Moustafa: Outside? I don't know what is inside. Prabhupāda: Then you do not know. You do not know outside, inside. Moustafa: When I do wrong, for example. When I do lie, when I do something, when I see wrong. Prabhupāda: Wrong, one thing is wrong in my country, and that is right in your country. Just like animal slaughter is wrong according to our Vedic civilization. Unnecessary animal slaughter is forbidden. But in your country or in other Western countries, they kill so many animals. So what is wrong, what is right? Who will decide? Moustafa: That's the reason I don't kill animals and I don't eat meat. For three years now. Prabhupāda: That's very good, very good idea. When we want God, to understand, we must try to understand what is God. What do you mean by God? The God definition is given in the dictionary, what is that? "Supreme being, supreme controller." So how do you understand that supreme controller? What do you mean by supreme controller? In this way we should try to understand what is the idea carried by the word God. We have got, in our Vedic language, we have got definition of God, that Ātreya Ṛṣi: His question is "How can I have more faith in God?" Prabhupāda: The more you know about these things. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You must inquire. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, very good. Then is bigger than you. Very good. There is a verse in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, siddhānta baliyā citte nā kara alasa ihā ha-ite kṛṣṇe [Ādi 2.117]. To know, we have got limited knowledge, we cannot understand full what is God, but still we must try to understand what is God. This is the general definition of God. Suppose you take one item, God is rich, richest. Try to understand how He is richest, what is the topmost idea of all richness. Whether God possesses that richness. He possesses, but we do not understand. In this way we have to study, and all the saintly person have studied Kṛṣṇa, about these six things. They have analyzed the characters and symptoms and they have found īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Not blindly, but studying thoroughly about these qualities of God, they have decided īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. So you have to study God. Not that we accept God anybody and anything, no. Siddhānta baliyā citte nā kara alasa. Don't be lazy to understand God. The more you understand, the more you become a devotee. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He says, "I am very anxious to become a good devotee." Prabhupāda: Yes, you can become, everyone can become. The more the dirty things within the heart is cleansed, more one becomes a devotee. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. You have to make zero all dirty desires. Then it is pure. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Which day? Harikeśa: Tuesday. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is not a good proposal. Prabhupāda: It can be changed? Harikeśa: I suppose. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Of course. We know the President of Air India in Tehran. Harikeśa: He's on Iran Air. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Iran Air also, no problem. You'll get the best flight. Prabhupāda: It is very good climate. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you must rest. Harikeśa: Last year when we were in Denver, I think you were very healthy there, and this is the same altitude. Prabhupāda: So then we can stay here. Hari-śauri: I'll go down and see how the prasādam is coming along. They've brought the prasādam up now? Prabhupāda: You can bring here. Who is there in the bathroom? Hari-śauri: They're just cleaning it out. They're giving you the big bathroom because it has a Western toilet and a nice shower and separate everything, it's very nice, and we'll use the small one. They're just cleaning it now, if you want you can use. Prabhupāda: Lock this door, otherwise if you come there, it will be disturbance. Harikeśa: Nandarāṇī's making khicuḍi with the peas and okra. Prabhupāda: Okra could be done separately. Let her do independently. Ātreya Ṛṣi: She's doing both. She first mixed it, now she's also making separate. Prabhupāda: Oh. Anyway, let her do it. She was cooking for me in Māyāpura. Harikeśa: I heard you like it very much. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The more you become eager to know God, God will reveal Himself. From our side, we should not be stereotyped. People in different sects of religion, they say, "We believe." But they do not want to go further than they believe. That is very difficult. You must be dynamic and progressive, then you will have. I have talked with many sects, especially Christian priests. They will say "We believe," no more further than that. So knowledge is not like that. Knowledge must be progressive. "We believe there is no soul of the animal"*-bas, fixed up. You believe like a rascal, so I shall remain rascal. What is this? We should be progressive. That is wanted. Of course, in the lower stage one may have a type of belief, but if you want more clearly, you must be progressive. According to Vedānta system, the life, human life, is only for inquiring about Brahman. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. We shall talk again. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Evening Conversation-*-August 8, 1976, Tehran Atreya Ṛṣi: Now if there are planets, Śrīla Prabhupāda, like the sun planet, where Prabhupāda: We get information from the śāstra, every planet is full of life. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, that there is life in other, some planets. *Prabhupāda: Janaḥ*-kirna, this very word is used janaḥ-kirna. Congested with life. And we have got description, this loka, this loka, this loka is fighting sometimes with other loka, or that... Everything is description there. There is milk ocean, there is this ocean, that ocean, varieties of. So if we have to take these rascals' version, they're simply rogues, then the whole śāstra becomes false. Atreya Ṛṣi: The point in the śāstra is that every... *Prabhupāda: And they will advertise that these descriptions in the śāstras, they are all mythology. Of course, this kind of bluffing cannot go because suppose this Mars expedition becomes a failure, like that, the same... It will be failure. So next time, if they propose, I think people will be hesitant to allow them to. Simply bringing people rocks and sands, without any utility, after spending so much money. How long they can repeat this, "Yes, we went to this planet, rocks. We went to this*-rocks." So we see variety. Is the so many luminaries, simply rocks and sands? The moon is full of rocks and it's so illuminating? Whole universe is illuminated so nice, moonshine. So many stars illuminating and they're rocks and sand? We have to believe it? Jñānagamya: They are saying there is life on Mars. They are seeing microbes, small little living entities, they are detecting these with their machines. So they are seeing, there is some life. Prabhupāda: Microbes? Jñānagamya: Microbe, you know, like microscopic... Prabhupāda: Why they can see only microbes? Not a fully grown up human being. Jñānagamya: No, they are detecting through gas. They feed the microbes and then microbes give off evacuation... Prabhupāda: How they can see? Suppose you see from a distant place, this planet. So how you can see within water? You can take photograph of the water, but how you can take photograph within the water? So what is the value of their taking photograph? Does the photograph takes the picture within the water? Atreya Ṛṣi: No. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of such photograph? Jñānagamya: But they are not detecting with photographs, they are detecting with chemicals. Prabhupāda: What class chemical? (indistinct) Jñānagamya: They say the chemicals are giving off gases when they are feeding(?) the earth. They take the ground from Mars. Prabhupāda: Just see so many bogus words they manufacture to make believe. Because they are scientist, they'll talk all big, big words which we cannot understand. So you cannot argue. (talks gibberish) Like that. By common sense question, that they are simply finding out rocks and sand, and again they are saying somebody has bombed. The first... (coughing) If there is bomb, then there is fight; so if there is fight, there must be human being. Harikeśa: He was the one that told me about that, about the canyon and the bombed out place. Jñānagamya: Yes, I was working for USIS, U.S. Information Service and I had a commission to paint a large picture of this Mars landing ship, and they had information coming back that they were finding a long blockhouse with a big crater in the center, like a building that had been bombed. Fourteen kilometer crater. They had a picture like that. It appeared to be a building. So they are all cheaters. I used to live in Florida where they send up these, they are all drunkards. They drink alcohol, very unserious. Prabhupāda: Oh, then they can manufacture. All drunkards, they are in charge of this fighting. Atreya Ṛṣi: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, if there are some visitors, can they come up? Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: Will we have readings or would you like to talk with them? Prabhupāda: Let them come, we shall see. My point is why they do not see any other spot? Only these spots are visible, where there are rocks? They say Howrah station is closed. No sane man will believe that, that Howrah station is closed. Jñānagamya: They do not want to upset the illusion that they are God, that they are the only ones in the universe. So if they find out there is life on another planet, they will not like it. If there is higher life somewhere else, they will not like that. They are always in competition. Prabhupāda: And all the higher lifes are in Europe and America. Especially in America, eh? That is their mania. They do not like that there may be higher lifes, you said. They like it that there may not be any higher life. That is their preconception. Jñānagamya: Yes, this is the highest here, there cannot be any higher. They will not accept. Prabhupāda: Just see how much biased they are. *Jñānagamya: They cannot accept another philosophy, they will not accept philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā because it is from another country. They do not like that. Prabhupāda: Ah, nobody can see their attitude. *Jñānagamya: So it is very good. On the abridged Bhagavad*-gītā we have Americans, Emerson and Thoreau saying this is a wonderful book. That is very good, that is very impressive to Americans. They will accept if some great Americans have said. *Prabhupāda: That was my policy from the very beginning, that if the Americans accept, then my mission will be successful. And that is being done gradually, and I am insisting that, preach in America vigorously. If America accepts, then whole world will accept. That's a fact. Anywhere, although America may be fallen, the ideal is American, everywhere. Because they have got money. Kali*-yuga means money. If you have got money, then you have got culture, you have got education, you have got everything. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Formerly, they were attached, family, aristocracy, culture, education. Nowadays there is no such thing. Get money and you get everything. It is not? Somehow or other, if you have got control over money then you have got everything. Bring that black Bhāgavatam. What is that sound coming? There is goat? Parivrājakācārya: I think a lamb, sheep. Prabhupāda: Lamb. Parivrājakācārya: Yes. Prabhupāda: They keep lambs for? Parivrājakācārya: For sacrificing. Prabhupāda: They sacrifice at home? Parivrājakācārya: The Koran says that you should sacrifice the animal at home with his head pointing toward Mecca. Prabhupāda: Huh? Parivrājakācārya: With the head of the animal towards Mecca, and you let the blood of the animal flow towards Mecca, and then you can eat an animal. So they keep many sheep here just for that purpose. Prabhupāda: Oh. So at least they do not recommend to purchase from the slaughterhouse. That is also good. Jñānagamya: But they have slaughterhouse. *Parivrājakācārya: But the Koran restricts meat*-eating. Prabhupāda: It is restriction. Parivrājakācārya: Yes. So this is what we explain; we say if it is good, then why is it restricted? Prabhupāda: That is a good explanation. What do they say? Parivrājakācārya: They say, well, Mohammed did it. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But this is restriction. There is light in the veranda? Jñānagamya: Yes, there is light. Yes. *Prabhupāda: So let us go so that you can sit comfortably. You can take this (indistinct). That janma*-acarana, 12th canto, 3rd chapter. (moving occurs) I shall like to sit down. (indistinct) Now in the beginning... Pradyumna: The beginning of the third chapter? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: The third chapter begins, dṛṣṭvātmani jaye vyagrān. That's third chapter. Prabhupāda: Second chapter. *Pradyumna: Second chapter, tataś cānu*-dinaṁ dharmaḥ. Prabhupāda: Ah. Pradyumna: It says carma? Cara? Prabhupāda: Dharmaḥ cara. Pradyumna: Oh. Prabhupāda: Now you begin that. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Vittam eva, that's it. Vittam eva? *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ Prabhupāda: Ah. Vittam means money. So if you have got money, then you are coming from high family. There is no consideration of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. If you have got money, then you are everything. Vittam eva hi? *Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Janmācāra*-guṇodayaḥ. That is practical, we see. If you have got money, then people will come to you, "Oh, you are so learned, you are so qualified." Just like George, or John Lennon. What qualification they have got? But people will go there and take them as very highly learned and scholar and everything. The press reporters take their opinion. But what is their qualification? The qualification, by selling some records they have got money, that's all. What is that qualification? Now of course, they are coming to, George at least, coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, from qualification point of view, they are not learned, educated in university, nor they have got any spiritual assets, born brāhmaṇa family, nothing. Simply money. We also go and flatter them to get some money (laughs). So this is Kali-yuga. Vittam eva. If you have got money, then you have got everything. Therefore people are after, so much after money. Vittam eva, hmm? Read that? Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: Dharma*-nyāya. In India we have seen that you bribe the brāhmaṇas and they'll give decision in your favor. And it is experienced by everyone. In the law court you bribe even the high-court judge, he'll give judgement in your... That is proven. One big judge... Not now, at least fifty years ago or more than that. His business was to take bribe, high-court judge, very learned judge. He was asked. He'll give judgement if you give him ten thousand rupees. So other brother high-court judges, they knew it, so in one case he was just arranging for this and the chief justice called him, that "You immediately resign and go home, otherwise this arrangement you have made, it will be exposed." So he had no other alternative, he immediately resigned, and on some plea like, "My heart is palpitating," so in this way he left the court and then he was never allowed again. And when his friends asked him that why you are doing this? He said, "What can I do? I have got at least ten thousand rupees expenditure per month and I get only four thousand." That was his... He was very able lawyer. By private practice he was earning more, but this practice... And nowadays it has come to, at least in India, anywhere you go, and bribe and you get a favorable decision. (guests arrive) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall be sitting inside or here? Atreya Ṛṣi: Wherever you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I can like anywhere. Atreya Ṛṣi: This is good, this is good. Prabhupāda: But these gentlemen? Sit down. So let them come near; our men may go there. You can sit down. Let them come forward. Take, give them. Yes. You can bring the room light also. So there is introduction? Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Hamidi. He's a friend of mine at work, and he's very much interested in both Indian and Iranian spiritual life, in culture as it is. And this is Peter, he has been coming here on Fridays. Prabhupāda: He's American? Peter: English. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. And he's come and taken prasādam and we talk to him sometimes. Jñānagamya: He offers pūjā to Lord Buddha, he's worshiping Lord Buddha. He has an altar. Prabhupāda: The other boy? Atreya Ṛṣi: Śiva, Mr. Śiva from Malaysia. He's Hindu I believe. And he's recently come to visit us. Next is Dr. Rulf, he is from Holland. He is an economist and he is working here. I've been acquainted with him through business. And that is Reza. He has been coming here for a long time and he's been chanting. Prabhupāda: He's trying to be (indistinct). Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So Iranian spiritual culture and Indian spiritual culture. You told me? Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So first of all, what is spiritual culture? Atreya Ṛṣi: Sufism... Prabhupāda: No, not... Just like gold. I'll explain. Gold, either in Iran or in India, gold is gold. You cannot say Iranian gold or Indian gold. That is not. Similarly, when you say Iranian spiritual culture and Indian spiritual culture, the common point is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture is one. It cannot be Iranian, Indian, or anywhere belonging to some sycophant. Just like this moon. This moon is now on Iran. But that does not mean it's Iranian moon. Or the sun, it does not mean Iranian sun. Moon is one. Either in India or in Iran, the moon is moon. You cannot say "Iranian moon" or "Indian moon." So spiritual culture is one. And material culture is one. Therefore I'm asking what do you mean by spiritual culture? That is my question. Then we shall consider whether it is Iranian or Indian or... What is your idea of spiritual culture? Mr. Hamidi: Of course, I believe that they're all the same, but... Prabhupāda: No, same. But you must explain at least. I want to know how far you have understood spiritual culture as it is. That is my question. Mr. Hamidi: Well, of course, it is very difficult to differentiate. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is difficult. Practically you do not know what is spiritual culture. That is a fact. So first of all, you must try to understand what is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture means... There are two things within our experience. Matter and spirit. So matter is this body, and spirit is the soul within the body. Without spirit, this material body has no value. That we experience every day. When a man is dead, we take it, now the body is useless, throw it away. Therefore the body is important so long the spirit soul is there. And that is spirit. And when we study that spirit soul, that is the beginning of spiritual culture. If you have no idea of what is that spirit, then there is no question of spiritual culture. With this body we cannot make any progress of spiritual culture. That is not possible. The body is matter. They're explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Antavanta ime dehā. Bring Bhagavad-gītā. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ. So try to understand what is spirit, what is matter. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Only the material body is subject to destruction. Pradyumna: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction." Prabhupāda: Yes, the body's destructible, but the spirit soul is not destructible. When you understand this point, then we understand what is spirit, and then spiritual culture begins. Without being convinced of this spirit soul, there is no question of spiritual culture. So the spirit soul is described as eternal. And the proof is given, eternity. Just like there are so many children. They'll grow up from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood. The body is changing. This is very practical. But the spirit soul is there, the same spirit soul which was within the womb of the mother in a small body. Then coming out of the mother's womb, the same spirit soul is there, but the body is different. In this way, the body is being situated in different status, but we know that the proprietor of the body is the same. Is there any difficulty to understand? Anyone? The body is changing, that's a fact. You are young man. You'll have to become an old man like me. That means body will change. But so far you are concerned, you are the same. So, the body changes and the spirit soul remains the same. This is to be understood first of all. What is the difficulty? First of all, you must distinguish what is spirit, what is matter. Material culture means this body is there, it requires some necessities. The body must be given something to eat. Is it not? Eating? Then the body must be given some rest, sleeping, for which we require some apartment, some place. Not we, but also even the animals, birds, they have got their nest, or the animal has got some hole or something. So eating, sleeping, and some sense gratification, sex. These are bodily necessities. But when you understand what is spirit, then we must try to find out what the spiritual necessity is. That is spiritual culture. You cannot go on with the bodily culture as spiritual culture. That is a mistake. Spiritual culture is different from the bodily culture. And when we understand it, then there is no question of Iranian spiritual culture or Indian spiritual culture. Spiritual culture is one. As bodily culture is also one. It does not mean that only Indians eat and the Iranians do not eat. The Iranians also eat, because they're bodily necessities. Similarly, spiritual culture also, there is some necessities which is equally needed by the Iranians, by Americans, by Indians. It is not... Just like when we say that the child grows to become a boy. This is not applicable only to the Indians or Iranians. It is applicable everywhere. Child grows everywhere. You cannot say this is Indian or Iranian. It is everywhere. So if we understand what is spiritual culture and what is material culture, then there is no question of Iranian or Indian or English or American. Spiritual culture is the same everywhere. So any question on this point? Any difficulty to understand? (pause) Spiritual culture or material culture, it is one and the same everywhere. There cannot be any difference. Materially, we want to cover this body, some dress, everyone has got dress. You cannot say this is Iranian dress or it is Indian dress. Dress is dress, that's all. So any question on this point? Mr. Hamidi: Isn't it the approach which makes it different. Prabhupāda: This is the approach, that first of all you distinguish what is matter, what is spirit. This is the approach. Mr. Hamidi: Well, perhaps, the spiritual culture, what we mean by that, all the rituals, all the different approach... Prabhupāda: No, rituals, this will come later on. First of all, let us understand what is matter, what is spirit. Unless we understand what is matter and what is spirit, there is no question of spiritual culture. Therefore you'll be misguided. By material culture, you will pass on as spiritual culture. And that is going on. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the goal once one understands what is spirit and what is matter, what is the goal past that? Prabhupāda: Goal is there, because spirit is important. Without spirit, matter has no value. This is a material box, but because it has no spirit, it has no value. It has value, comparatively, but not as valuable as a human being because there is no spirit. You can move, if you like, you can go immediately, but this, for many thousands of years it will lie down here. It cannot move. Because there is no spirit. Therefore spirit is important. So this distinction is possible to understand in the human form of body. What is the distinction between a human being or a living man and this box? The distinction is that the living being has the spirit soul within and the box has no spirit soul within. Now if we take care of this box outwardly, that we should take; similarly if you take care of the body only, then where is spiritual culture? If you take care of the four principles of bodily necessities, eating, sleeping and sex and defense, then where is spiritual culture? The aim should be spiritual culture, at least for human beings. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand what is the distinction between spirit and soul, er, spirit and matter, but a human being can understand. This is spiritual side, this is material side. The spiritual side is important. Therefore the goal is how to understand the spiritual side. That is the goal. If we don't cultivate the spiritual side, simply we take care of the bodily side, then we remain animals. And because people are taking only care for the body, this is animal civilization. Human civilization means to take care of the spiritual side. If there is no such attempt to take care of the spiritual side, simply for the material side, then we are no better than the animals. Because they cannot take any care of the spiritual side. They can take care of the material side. Peter: Is the soul dependent upon the body for its existence. Prabhupāda: Soul is dependent? Atreya Ṛṣi: Upon the body for existence. Prabhupāda: Yes. At the present moment, the soul is dependent on the material body because he has no spiritual culture. Just like we Indians, we were under the British rule. So long there was no national movement, they remained dependent on the Britishers. But as soon as there was national movement they became independent. This is a crude example. Similarly, because we have no spiritual cultivation, we are dependent on this material body. Actually, the soul is not dependent on the body. It has become so under certain condition: because he's thinking that he is this body. They have been described as mūḍha. Mūḍha is an ass. Mūḍha means ass. So I do not know what it is here. In India the asses are kept by the washerman. The washerman loads tons of cloth on the back of the ass to take it to the waterside, and again he brings back to the washerman shop, and the washerman gives a morsel of grass, little, and he eats the grass and stands there to carry the tons of load, thinking that he's dependent on the washerman. He has no intelligence that grass can be had anywhere, why I am dependent on this washerman to carry so much load. Lack of knowledge. Similarly, we are dependent on this body for lack of spiritual knowledge. As soon as he'll be enlightened by spiritual knowledge, then no more dependence. Therefore it is (indistinct). Otherwise, he'll remain like an ass perpetually dependent on the washerman. Mūḍha. We are thinking that without this body we cannot live. No. That is not the fact. We can live independently of this body. But our present position, because we have no spiritual culture, we are thinking that we are dependent on this body. Actually, we are not dependent. That will be revealed the more you advance in spiritual culture. What was his question before? Atreya Ṛṣi: Is your question satisfied? Peter: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: It is something like gum? (?) Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Does it require change? No. Atreya Ṛṣi: Change? Yes. Prabhupāda: No, I have got it filled in my (indistinct). Atreya Ṛṣi: No, it's finished. After a while. Just twenty minutes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Then I shall (indistinct). Dependence for twenty minutes. That is my dependence, for twenty minutes or twenty years or twenty millions of years. There are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty minutes. And there are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty years. And there are many animals who depend on the body for twenty millions of years. It is a question of proportion. But actually the spirit soul is not dependent on any type of body twenty minutes or twenty years and twenty millions of years. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Find out this. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Somebody else? Atreya Ṛṣi: There are some guests coming. (background movement) Prabhupāda: Come forward. No, let them come in. So whether these gentlemen's questions are answered. If they have got any doubt, we can... Atreya Ṛṣi: Through association they will ask more questions. Prabhupāda: What is that verse? Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of my appearance and activities does not upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains my eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: So this is the process of becoming independent of the material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. This is the process. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to make one independent of this material body. Any other questions? Bring my beads. (long pause) My question is whether you like to remain dependent on this material body. Hmm? If you can live spiritually independent, whether you should remain dependent on this material body and whether to remain dependent on this material body is happy or it is distress? What is your realization? To remain dependent on this material body, is it very good or is it troublesome, huh? Peter: Suffering. Prabhupāda: Suffering, very good. If you remain dependent on this material body, then suffering. So why don't you become independent? That is the next question. Peter: Attachment. Prabhupāda: Attachment maybe, that is not a very important thing. But if there is a process, how to become independent of this body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. Just like a man suffering from illness, attachment or no attachment, he's now suffering from that illness, but he has put himself into hospitalization under some physician. So that process will cure him and he'll not suffer from this disease. That is the hope. Or that is the fact. Similarly, circumstantially, we may be dependent on this material body, but if there is a process how we can become independent of the body, why should we not take it? The same example, if a man is diseased, he's captured by the disease. Attachment or no attachment, it is difficult. But he must put himself under treatment so that he can be detached from it. That is intelligence. I am caught by the disease. So let me suffer without any treatment. That is not intelligence. I must take the process of treatment by which... That is explained there, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Take this treatment so that after giving up this body you'll not have any more material body. And as soon as you become free from this material body, there is no suffering. But as soon as you get a material body, you must suffer. So if there is way and means to avoid this material body, and remain in our original spiritual body, why should we not take it. That is intelligence. That is a very simple thing. Read it again. Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities, does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: Purport? *Pradyumna: "The Lord's descent from his transcendental abode, is already explained in the sixth verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage and therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body. Such liberation of the living entity from material bondage is not at all easy. The impersonalists and the yogis attain liberation only after much trouble and many, many births. Even then the liberation they achieve, merging into the impersonal brahmajyoti of the Lord, is only partial and there's the risk of returning again to this material world. But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning again to this material world. In the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is stated that the Lord has many, many forms and incarnations: advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam [Bs. 5.33]. Although there are many transcendental forms of the Lord, they are still one and the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. One has to understand this fact with conviction, although it is incomprehensible to mundane scholars and empiric philosophers. As stated in the Vedas: Prabhupāda: So if there is some process to become independent of this material body, why should we not accept? What is the objection? If somebody's suffering from some disease and if there is process of curing it, why one should not take it? (long pause) So your friend's questions and answers are not coming? Atreya Ṛṣi: They just came to listen, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, they must be satisfied. (long pause) Atreya Ṛṣi: The young man who just came is Terry Graham. He'd come to see you two years ago when you were here. Prabhupāda: Oh, jaya. Atreya Ṛṣi: He's a journalist. Prabhupāda: Oh yes, I remember. He has got any questions? Atreya Ṛṣi: Terry, do you have any questions? *Terry: I have a question about this particular age. The world seems to be dividing itself between two kinds of materialists, the one which pays lip service to spiritual precedents but really devotes itself to self*-aggrandizement, and the other which establishes an atheistic doctrine in the name of moral struggle with that greedy self-aggrandizement. In fact this atheistic moral doctrine has now taken over virtually the entire Sinic world-China, Tibet, Indochina. Is there some way that, the question is, what is the cosmic purpose for this and how should one come to terms with this prevailing, this increasingly prevailing notion that justice can be established in a material state or a material dimension? Prabhupāda: In the material world there cannot be any peace, justice, morality. It is not possible. You may try to make some adjustment, but it will never be possible. So, by their concocted imagination, they are thinking, "This way will be beneficial," but unless they come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of peace, prosperity, justice. It is not possible. Atreya Ṛṣi: Is there a relationship, he's asking, between these disturbances and this age, that this time that we are living in... *Prabhupāda: It is more or less. Sometimes you have got 110 degree temperature and sometimes you have got seventy degree temperature. But the disturbance is there. Either 110 degree or seventy degree or thirty degree, you'll have to feel the disturbance. You cannot stop it. So either you take the cause this age, or this country, or this atmosphere, we can say so, but it will continue. That is the nature of the material world. If you think that 110 degree is too much, let it be one hundred degree... That you concoct like that. In fact any such temperature will disturb you. That's a fact. You can think that if it would have been 100 degree, it would have been very nice, but that's not the fact. Either 110 degree or 100 degree, it is disturbance. Then how can you stop it? Anyone who wants to stop it, he's intelligent. And that is described here, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. One has to understand this fundamentally, that so long I'll get this material body, I'll have to suffer. Maybe differences of degrees, but I will have to suffer. So my endeavor should be how to become independent of this material body. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Not to make a distinction of different degrees. Different degrees*-one position, one man's food, another man's poison. The same degree. If you think that it is nice, another man will suffer. So suffering will continue. That is not possible (indistinct). It is the nature of material world, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. Find out this verse. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. This material world is full of miseries. That they do not understand. Miserable condition they are accepting as pleasing. That is called ignorant. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: The material world is full of miseries. It may be of different degrees, but it is full of miseries. You cannot avoid by adjustment. That is not possible. Therefore the materialists, they are trying. Just like in this country, Iran, now the Iranians are trying to become as opulent as the Americans. They are trying to build up similar cities and industries, but do you think they will be happy then? No. Are the Americans happy by having big, big cities? No. That is not possible. Now they are trying to imitate, but that is a false attempt. That is not the life. They can see that Americans have got big, big cities, they have big, big organizations, but are they happy actually or not? From practical example. Then why you are attempting again to imitate them? That intelligence is lacking. How they will be happy, they do not know. They are trying to imitate somebody else. He is already on the standard, so*-called, but still they are not happy. The Communists, they're trying for the last fifty years to become happy, but are they happy actually? No. The Russians and the Chinese, they are now differing, "No, this is not the standard. This is standard." So the same thing is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. It is like chewing the chewed, that's all. Somebody has chewed the sugar cane and it's thrown away. Another man comes, "Let me taste it." And what you'll taste? It is already finished. So all these "isms," they are all finished. All the scientific discoveries, they are all finished. And where is happiness? This is not the way. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. You have to attempt in such a way that after giving up this body, you go back home, back to Godhead, never come back again here. This is the way. Otherwise, there is no happiness. You go on struggling, that is your choice. Make new attempts. Just like this moon excursion. Ten years ago in one small book, Easy Journey to Other Planets, we predicted that this moon-going attempt is childish and waste of time. We are not expert scientist, but from the śāstra we can understand. Now such a brilliant planet, pleasing, and they have discovered there rocks and sand. Just see their intelligence. Do you think rocks and sand are so brilliant? What do you think? This bluff is going on. People are feeling under the moonshine is so pleasing, and it is full of rocks and sand. We have to accept that. Rocks and sand, throughout the whole day by scorching heat, they also become heated. So at night it is suffering. So if it is rocks and sand, so whole day it was heated by the sunshine, how it is pleasing? *Peter: Is there any point in your practice do you consider yourself free from taking lower re*-births? [break] Prabhupāda: ...but if there is no material activities, then you are not affected. This is possible. Just like an iron rod, you put into the fire. Gradually, it becomes warmer, warmer, and at last, when it is red hot, it is fire, no more iron. Similarly, even though we have got this material body, if we cultivate spiritual life, then the activities of the material body will stop automatically. Therefore it is no more material. The same example, the iron rod has become already fire. So you put it in the fire, and continue it, then you'll understand that it is no more iron rod, it is fire. Touch anywhere it will burn. You cannot say it is iron bar. Similarly, if you become spiritually enlightened, then the material activities will stop and then you'll be happy. [break] You'll feel, "Yes, I have got some food." Peter: In the last chapter which he read, he was, I think you read about the yogis who can get to this high level of consciousness and then they can still fall back. That's like, my question, what was the cause for this? *Prabhupāda: If you do not come to the point of fulfillment of your appetite*-you are eating, but if you have not sufficiently eaten, then you want more to eat. But if you have sufficiently eaten, then you will say, "No, no, no, no more I want." Even if you are offered, "Take more food." You'll say "No, I have enough." It is a question of sufficiency and insufficiency. If you are insufficiently spiritually advanced, you'll feel vacancy so much. But if you are sufficiently advanced, then you'll say, "It is all right now." It is a question of sufficiency and insufficiency. So other method, jñāna, yoga, they are insufficient. And bhakti-yoga is sufficient. Therefore you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. Find out this verse. He never recommends jñāna, yoga, karma. Bhakti. So if you take the path of bhakti, then you'll feel sufficiency. Otherwise you'll feel insufficient. To some extent, although it is perfect, but it is not completely perfect. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: That's it. Now unless you enter into the kingdom of God, you'll not feel full satisfaction. Even if you go to the moon planet or Mars planet, there is no question of satisfaction. Atreya Ṛṣi: So your question is whether one can enter this kingdom of God with this body. *Prabhupāda: No, that is already explained*-tyaktvā dehaṁ. Giving up this body, one can enter in the spiritual world. Viśate tad-anantaram-after death. By bhakti, when he's mature and he gives up this body, then he enters into the spiritual world. Tyaktvā deham, giving up this body. You cannot enter, although by devotional service the material activities of the body will stop, but you have to wait for the moment when this material body is no more existing, then with spiritual body you can enter. Tyaktvā deham, mām eti. Viśate tad-anantaram. Tad-anantaram after death. And if you have got little pinch of material attachment, then you'll have to accept another material body. So we have (to) come to the point that no more I want anything material. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. I am no more anyone's servant. I am neither American nor Iranian nor Indian nor Hindu nor Muslim, not this, not that, I'm simply servant of... That is my position. And so long I shall keep attachment for this designation, temporary... What is this Iranian, American, Indian? Say for few years. Because you have to change this body. Tyaktvā deham. Tathā dehāntaram. So after giving up this body, you have to accept another body. If I am in the next body I become a sparrow, then where is my conception of Iranian, Indian and Hindu, and Muslim? I am a sparrow. Jumping like sparrow, that's all. So these are designations, temporary designations. So one has to become free from these temporary designations. Then he's liberated. That is bhakti. Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, thank you very much. [break] Pradyumna: ...activity, but he still has designation and he comes to the temple and he chants, but he still thinks... Prabhupāda: That is an attempt to become designationless. But one has to become free from designation. The same example. If the rod is put in the fire, it is becoming warm, warmer, warmer, and when it is red hot it is no more rod, it is fire. So beginning of life, neophyte stage is the beginning. When he actually becomes advanced in devotional service, that is designationless. Pradyumna: But we still call that, when a person first comes and he still has that designation stage, but we still call that bhakti? Prabhupāda: No, he's on the platform. Just like the same example. The iron rod is put in the fire. So it is fiery condition. Similarly, one who has given to devotional service, he is in the designationless condition, but it requires time to make the iron rod exactly fire. Pradyumna: Same thing as that pulling the plug out of the fan. Prabhupāda: Huh? Pradyumna: Same example, pulling the plug out and fan keeps going for some... *Prabhupāda: There are so many examples. There are so many examples. The beginning stage and the perfect stage. Perfect stage, designationless. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, in the beginning api cet su*-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ: [Bg. 9.30] even he's not completely a devotee, still, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. You must accept him as a devotee. Why? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. He has taken to the process completely. So there may be some designations always on account of past habit, but because he has taken to the process of becoming designationless, he is sādhu. If he sticks to the principles, kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati, very soon he'll become a perfect devotee and he'll get peace-śaśvac-chānti-kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. These things are there. So one has to take the line of Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, then everything automatically will appear. There is no.... That is called utsāhān dhairyāt, dhairyāt, patience. Niścayād; "I have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness exactly as Kṛṣṇa wants, then I'll surely be perfect." That is niścayād. There is no doubt about it. If I am following the direction of Kṛṣṇa under the guidance of spiritual master, be sure that you'll be successful. There is no question of becoming unsuccessful. Niścayād. But if I am deviating, that is my (indistinct). But if you follow, then you'll be sure to be successful. Jñānagamya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that what Lord Caitanya is trying to teach Haridāsa Ṭhākura when he says, "Put away your excess humility." Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jñānagamya: Haridāsa Ṭhākura is following all the principles, but he's always feeling so fallen. So Lord Caitanya tells him, "Put away your excess humility." Is this what He is trying to teach him? That we should have assurance? *Prabhupāda: Assurance is there. Kṛṣṇa says kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhakta... [Bg. 9.31]. If you remain a pure devotee, you'll never fall down. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. These are assurances. If you simply try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, why does He come, what are His activities. Janma karma ca me divyam [Bg. 4.9]. Simply.... This is cultivation, to understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa consciousness cultivation. And Kṛṣṇa assures: tyaktvā dehaṁ, you have to give up this body, but for a devotee giving up this body means no more accepting another body. And nondevotees giving up this body, tathā dehāntara prāptir, another body. That is the difference between devotee and nondevotee. One may say both of them are dying. Yes, they are dying, that's all right. They are not dying, nobody is dying, but changing the body. But a devotee's changing not to accept any more material body. The nondevotee's changing to accept another. That is the difference. And if you accept another body you will suffer, more or less, degrees. And if you don't accept material body then you become spiritually situated. Sac*-cid-ānanda vigraha [Bs. 5.1], simply ānanda, eternally blissful. Very easy. So we should be intelligent enough that if by practicing in this one life I can get next eternal blissful life of knowledge, why shall I deviate? Even if there is some difficulty, let me tolerate, what is the difficulty? Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given so easy, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and everything will be done perfectly. So where is the difficulty? No difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has not bluffed. He said kalau nāsty eva: the Kali-yuga you cannot do anything more. You do simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty? A boy can chant. It is simply practice, association. Your son, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. So these chances should be given to everyone, then everything will be all right. Let him be practiced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then everything will go on. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Where is the difficulty? Unless we make it difficult. Otherwise there is no difficulty. Otherwise suffering. Just like this lamb. It has got the Iranian body, but he's kept there for being killed. So what is the benefit of this Iranian body? But people are very much enthusiastic to remain nationalists, "I am Iranian, I am American, I am this, I am that." So, but he has worked in a different way, so he has got attachment for becoming American and Iranian, "All right you become." And according to work you have to become a lamb. And other Iranians eat you. That's all. This is designation. They do not understand, or they are not educated that what he will get by these designations. Big, big movement is going on on this designation platform. In our country, Mahatma Gandhi, he is supposed to be a great personality, but what is his teaching? He remained in designation, that's all. Feel like Indian and drive away the English. And one designation, you drive away another designation. This is going on. And he took Bhagavad-gītā, he never said "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." This is going on. Karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa sakale viṣera bandha. This is karma-kāṇḍa. Designation movements. And higher than this karma-kāṇḍa, the mental speculators, jñāna-kāṇḍa. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura (says) both of them viṣera bandha. Pot of poison. If you waste your time in this way, then they will get another body, that's all. Nana yoni bhraman kare kadārya bhakṣana kare, tara janma adha pate yaya. These are simple words but, it contains very, very grave meaning. This is Vaiṣṇava ācārya. Where is Atreya Ṛṣi? Devotee: Atreya Ṛṣi? I'll get him. *Pradyumna: If we take that analogy, karma*-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa, then... *Prabhupāda: Everything is going on, karma*-kāṇḍa. Whole world acting fruitive activities. "Let me work and get the result." This is karma-kāṇḍa. Pradyumna: And it is like poison. From poison we suffer and die. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is... Die means spiritual death. No spiritual idea. Otherwise, we have no death, nitya. But spiritual death is there. So your friends are satisfied or not? Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda. They said they were. I have noticed that people who are materially contaminated, when they hear spiritual preaching, they can always look at it from material point of view. For example, when you speak of designation, one boy was asking how come we are also having shaved heads and dressing like devotees. In other words, the emphasis on their minds is more on what is everybody else thinking, while the emphasis in your teaching is how you yourself can become free, not what everybody else is thinking. While our shaving of our head and dressing as devotee is a means to become free from all designation, he may be seeing other designations. Prabhupāda: No, it does not depend on shaving head. But this is in the process. Atreya Ṛṣi: It is in the process. Prabhupāda: Yes. By shaving, there are so many shaven headed. Does it means that he's in the process? Just like a doctor carries one stethoscope. But if somebody thinks "Let me carry a stethoscope, I'll become a doctor." But for a doctor the stethoscope is required. But a false man takes a stethoscope and declares himself a doctor, medical man, that is cheating. (pause) You get your puffed rice? No. Get? Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Let me ask. We may have little bit. Prabhupāda: No, here they prepare puffed rice? Atreya Ṛṣi: No, from India or from America. We don't... Prabhupāda: You get imported. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Would you like me to ask? Prabhupāda: Yes. You bring. Hari-śauri: We brought some flat rice, kṣira. Prabhupāda: No, don't, I shall not take it. Jñānagamya: Did he see that in the store now? I'm asking if he saw it in the store. Atreya Ṛṣi: No, it is not here, we got it. Prabhupāda: What is that? No. Don't take trouble. I'll not take. Atreya Ṛṣi: No trouble. Jñānagamya: I have some friends, in American commissary, friends like that, they could possibly get it. I'll call them. Atreya Ṛṣi: You get some tomorrow. Can I see if we can fix you some, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Puffed rice? No. Atreya Ṛṣi: What would you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, doesn't matter. *Nava*-yauvana: Someone has given us some from India. Prabhupāda: Puffed rice? *Nava*-yauvana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Bring it, let me see. I think today is cooler, so I don't require to lie down outside. Hari-śauri: Sleep inside? Prabhupāda: Huh? Pradyumna: It's coming to pūrṇimā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Moon is the cooling effect. Desert will make a cooling effect. (laughter) Just see. At least I shall not believe that this is desert and rock. I'm not so fool. The desert and rock is giving so nice brilliant shining, everyone is feeling comfortable. Just see. We have to believe it. Atreya Ṛṣi: Because Kṛṣṇa is missing. They don't accept Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, they should have at least common sense. But they have no common sense. Kṛṣṇa is far away from here, for these rascals, but at least they should have common sense. And that also they have not. Even they have not common sense. Pradyumna: Children are always asking, it is a folk thing that children ask what is the moon made of? Mother, father, what is the moon made of. Prabhupāda: They ask? Pradyumna: Generally, when they are young, what is the moon, what is the moon made of. So they used to answer, "It's made of green cheese." (laughter) *Prabhupāda: You believe that it is desert and rock and giving so nice shining, cooling effect? In Vedic literature, there is always comparison, analogy, with moon, moon*-faced, candra-mukhi. There are so many. The best thing is compared with the moon. We have named Māyāpura-candra. Māyāpura-candrodaya Mandira. Do you mean that a desert is coming out from Māyāpura? You have got rock candy? Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Give me little. Jñānagamya: Prabhupāda, your temples are the real spaceships. We can go to the other planets and to Kṛṣṇaloka from your temples. Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore I've given you *Easy Journey to Other Planets*. It is from India? *Nava*-yauvana: It is from India. Prabhupāda: Fresh. Atreya Ṛṣi: Would you like it fried a little? Prabhupāda: Little make it hot. Atreya Ṛṣi: Hot, We can little heat it. Prabhupāda: That's all. After heating, put little ghee, very little, and mix it with black pepper and salt. Atreya Ṛṣi: We mix it or you mix it. Prabhupāda: I can mix. Atreya Ṛṣi: We'll bring it separately. Prabhupāda: But this is good. Atreya Ṛṣi: And also we can bring some fruit? Prabhupāda: No. More salt, pepper. So this is nice. Hari-śauri: Shall I put some on this lid? Prabhupāda: Some Indian gentleman has given? Atreya Ṛṣi: This is Mrs. Patel. Prabhupāda: She has prepared or....? Atreya Ṛṣi: No, from India. Prabhupāda: Persian rice is famous. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, it is prepared in a different way. Prabhupāda: Persian rice? Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, we prepare it also differently. We first boil it and then take the water out and then steam it. Prabhupāda: So first of all you boil? Atreya Ṛṣi: And take the water out. Prabhupāda: Paddy? Atreya Ṛṣi: No, boil for two three minutes and then steam. Prabhupāda: Rice? Atreya Ṛṣi: And then steam. And it makes very long, individual... Prabhupāda: And then you dry? Atreya Ṛṣi: No, no. We eat it like that. Prabhupāda: For two, three days? Pradyumna: They eat it immediately after cooking. Prabhupāda: Oh. Pradyumna: Was that the rice she made, did she prepare it that way last night? This afternoon? Atreya Ṛṣi: No. This rice isn't even Persian, it's American rice. Persian rice is too expensive, even in Persia. [break] Prabhupāda: They make very nice puffed rice in Melbourne. Atreya Ṛṣi: How do they make it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Not difficult. The paddy, they are boiled. And then again baked in the sunshine. Again boil, then again baked in the sunshine. Then the skin is taken out by that dekhi, what is called? That rice... Pradyumna: Thresher? *Prabhupāda: Dekhi, husking, the skin is taken away. Then mixed with salt and make it heated. Then when it is prepared, then they heat sand, and in that heated sand you put the rice and immediately puff*-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff. Like that. *Atreya Ṛṣi: In America they probably have a short*-cut process. Prabhupāda: Maybe, what method? Pradyumna: We used to have for breakfast. (end) *Evening Darçana-*-August 9, 1976, Tehran Prabhupāda: Apart from form, we are, when we talk of God, at least we assume that He has form. They are offering prayers. Whom they are offering prayer? Nandarāṇī: Allah. Prabhupāda: Allah. So if Allah cannot hear, then what is the use of offering prayers? If we are offering prayer, so Allah must hear it. Then He will be pleased upon you. So if He has no capacity to hear, then what is the use of your prayer? This is the logic. He must have capacity to hear what I am offering, prayers, "My Lord, Your Lordship is so great You have created this universe," or "You are maintaining so many...," these things are there. So what is the purpose? That appreciating the uncommon activities of the Lord. This is prayer. What else? What do they mean by prayer? What is the meaning of that prayer? Nandarāṇī: Their prayers are for glorification of God. *Prabhupāda: Glorification means to recite the glorified activities. So He has got activities. Prayers describing the glorified activities. Just like our prayers also. Cintāmaṇi*-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam [Bs. 5.29]. The Lord is tending cows and He's surrounded by so many goddesses of fortune, gopīs, these things are described. Cintāmaṇi-prakara. So the Lord's activities, Lord's place, how He is surrounded by other devotees or servitors, how He is tending, these are prayers. So what is their prayer? Did you try to understand? What do they offer? Nandarāṇī: Allah allandallah(?) is a common... Prabhupāda: That is their word, but what is the meaning? Nandarāṇī: "God is great." Prabhupāda: God is great, but how He is great? Nandarāṇī: That is not emphasized, how He is great, just that He is great. Prabhupāda: Then there is the proof of less intelligence. God is great, very good, but how He is great. What is the conception of greatness. You accept me as a spiritual master, great, so you have got some conception of greatness. That you see in your spiritual master, therefore you accept him. And if you have no conception of greatness, what is the meaning of "He is great"? Therefore the real fact is, in the world there is no religion. They do not understand what is God, what is religion. Traditional, you can say superstition or some idea, actually no clear conception of religion. No idea in the world, except that in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. All vague ideas. "God is great," that's all. How He is great and worshipable? Who is God? And our ideal is to love God. So if I do not know about God, if I do not know who is God, then where is the question of love? Nandarāṇī: But their faith is there. Prabhupāda: That is good, but that is called bhakta prakṛta smṛtaḥ. That is not exactly on the transcendental platform. In the material platform, just appreciating some great power beyond our reach, that's all. Not clear idea. Therefore they are disturbed when they think form. Form means limitation, they think. At least, they should think like that. They do not know. Nobody knows, except in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Why we have described about God so many books? But they have this idea. Very poor idea. But they are accepting God is great, that will help in future. Nandarāṇī: That's elevating them. That faith is elevating them? Prabhupāda: Someday, if they come in contact with a real devotee, they'll appreciate. Just like you are coming. So they have to meet some devotee, then they'll be benefited. With the present idea there will be very slow progress. Practically no progress, but even there is little progress, very slow. So unless they come in contact with a pure devotee... Then... Hari-śauri: Your books. Nandarāṇī: If we distribute your books and prasāda, then that is as good as them coming to meet you personally. Prabhupāda: No, personally also, you can do. If they come, you instruct them. But the prasādam and book distribution, very important line. If he's intelligent, by reading books will help him. In Europe and America, you have got intelligence. By reading books, they are coming to the sense. And in this part of the world they are not so intelligent. *Nandarāṇī: We find only a very small percentage of the Iranians that can speak English well enough to understand even Īśopaniṣad, which is very simple English, and I give Bhagavad*-gītās, I distribute Bhagavad-gītā... Prabhupāda: If they understand any book, *Īśopaniṣad*, if they understand, they will get improvement. *Nandarāṇī: Any book. Some Bhagavad*-gītās I do, but it's an exceptional Iranian who can even read the book, what to speak of understand the concepts. Īśopaniṣad is easier for them. We are very eager to translate into Persian. Prabhupāda: *Īśopaniṣad*. Nandarāṇī: *Īśopaniṣad*, yes. I think that will be our first big attempt. Some essays we will try to do. "Who is Crazy?" is very good for them, they appreciate that article, and... Prabhupāda: They appreciate? Nandarāṇī: Yes, we have explained to some of them the concepts in "Who is Crazy?" and *Īśopaniṣad* is a good book for them. Prabhupāda: So your daughter is good assistant in the matter of cooking? *Nandarāṇī: Yes, they are both very good in cooking. And they clean the altar and they do some maintenance of the altar and the temple room, and they cook and sew, and I give them class in the morning, Bhagavad*-gītā in English. Prabhupāda: Yes, teach them personally. That Aniruddha is always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nandarāṇī: They are? Prabhupāda: No, Aniruddha. Nandarāṇī: Aniruddha, yes. (laughs) Prabhupāda: They are also chanting. Nandarāṇī: It is good for them here because they can preach. The guests who come, they are very attracted to these little children who can sing so many wonderful songs and read Sanskrit and preach from these heavy philosophical books that the Iranians cannot even understand. So they are learning to preach. I have a Gurukula here for the Indian children. Thirty children I have. Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. *Nandarāṇī: I have class only two days a week because the city is big and I have to go myself and collect them from their homes or meet in one home downtown and the traffic is very difficult, so we only have class two days a week, but I teach Bhagavad*-gītā and Kṛṣṇa book. Prabhupāda: They cannot come here? Nandarāṇī: This, it takes them almost two hours to come from the city to here, so now they are coming here because on Janmāṣṭamī all thirty of them are putting on a play of Kṛṣṇa's birth from your Kṛṣṇa book. So starting Sunday until the 18th, every day I am bringing them here. I'm renting a minibus and getting them from city and bringing them here for play practice. Then on Janmāṣṭamī we are having four hundred guests from the Indian community, and the children are putting on this "Birth of Kṛṣṇa" play, and they learn to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and play the karatālas. These children are actually like American children; they have no touch with their culture. Most of them don't know Kṛṣṇa from anyone else. So now I've taught them, just like we had to teach American children. And they like it very much. So they are doing the plays... Prabhupāda: The parents also like it. Nandarāṇī: The parents love it. The parents are very happy. And they pay some tuition, they pay just fifteen or twenty dollars for a summer session, and their children like it. They come and take prasāda, we have long kīrtanas. I've taught them to do pūjā, some āratik for Lord Jagannātha, and they like it so much. Now whenever their parents have their meetings, or whenever they're meeting, their children bring their Deities and they have their own āratiks there, and they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. It's very nice. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Nandarāṇī: Yes, the children like it very much. The parents also, because they don't want to take time to teach their children these things. They are so busy in their businesses. Prabhupāda: They come here for money, at the sacrifice of... *Nandarāṇī: Yes. We have Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deities here, marble, sixteen inch, I think. They've been here for two years. Nava-yauvana got them in India because he thought that soon they would be able to worship them, but we will never have ten brāhmaṇas here, I mean, it will always be just... Prabhupāda: Not ten brāhmaṇas, at least four, five. Nandarāṇī: Right. But even so, we could not maintain a standard of six āratiks and six offerings, so we have not installed any Deities. Prabhupāda: No, not necessary now. Now he is trying to purchase another house? Nandarāṇī: He's trying. Prabhupāda: That house can be completely temple, so that Indians may also come. *Hari-śauri: What if they started to worship Gaura*-Nitāi? Gaura-Nitāi? Because the worship is not so strict as Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, and I know you've said before... *Prabhupāda: Yes, Gaura*-Nitāi can be worshiped twice. Hari-śauri: Yes, two āratiks a day and kīrtana. *Prabhupāda: Gaura*-Nitāi is worshiped simply by kīrtana. Hari-śauri: The problem they have here is because there's no Deities, then things like the practices they have in the kitchen and the general bhakti rules and regulations are a little slack because the Deity's not there. So if they had some Deity, then that will encourage them, maṅgala-ārati at a certain time and like that. Prabhupāda: Atreya Ṛṣi recommending another house. Nandarāṇī: Yes, we actually want two places because when Iranian businessmen come, we cannot just show them the altar and say, "Here is our program." It must be very careful. And yet when the Indians come we want to have Deities, we want to have kīrtana. So we are trying to do two things in one house and it is very difficult. So he wants a separate place for a restaurant, for Deities, for my Gurukula school, a big room for my classroom, and then a separate home when we have some sophisticated guest we can bring them for dinner. But then we have many Indians, we can bring them for Deities. The Indians, they think this is a temple, but because there are no Deities, then they are not inclined to come. They want to see the Deity. Prabhupāda: Indians, they want Deity. Nandarāṇī: They want to see the Deity. Prabhupāda: Temple means Deity, there must be Deity. *Nandarāṇī: So these Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deities, we should simply keep until some future time when we might be able to worship Them? Prabhupāda: No, if you can, in a separate house, if you can follow the principles, you can install. *Nandarāṇī: I remember in Delhi when they had only a few devotees, they were having three aratiks a day, a very simple program for Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: They can do that, simple, three. Nandarāṇī: Can it be three, can it be simple? Prabhupāda: Maṅgala āratik, bhoga āratika and sundara āratik, that's all. Nandarāṇī: And changing Their clothes every day? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Every day. Nandarāṇī: Bathing and changing of Their clothes and three āratiks. Once we have a separate place and we have devotees to maintain Them. We have been eager to worship Deities, so we planted tulasīs, so now we have sixty tulasīs, so we are looking forward to worshiping the Deity and having a good program for bhakti. Prabhupāda: Here also you can do, but Atreya Ṛṣi thinks separate building. He thinks like that. Nandarāṇī: He wants a separate place. Because it is difficult for all of us to do two things. It's very..., it's just very difficult. So having two places would mean we could have one run like a temple and one run like a home. If many devotees come here and wear old clothes and live... Devotees, sometimes they want to dress in old clothes, they want to be very strict, they want to be very austere, but when the businessmen come and they see a devotee with shaved head and old rags on, then they think... Prabhupāda: Shocked... Nandarāṇī: Yes. "What is this?" you know. So, but at the same time we don't want to always dress very nicely, we want to be devotees. Prabhupāda: We must be clean. Nandarāṇī: Clean, yes. *Prabhupāda: The dress is not important*-cleanliness. Hari-śauri: You can dress in karmī clothes and still be very strict Vaiṣṇava. Nandarāṇī: Here we wear mostly street clothes, like the Iranians, suits and dresses. Prabhupāda: Just like he is not well dressed, but anyone who will see, he'll immediately find he's cleansed. That is wanted. Cleansed dress. Dress is not important. Nandarāṇī: I think Atreya Ṛṣi wants two places, one like a home and one like a temple. Those devotees who want to... Prabhupāda: One can become clean with simply loincloth. It doesn't require dress. [break] ...Indian or here? Hari-śauri: Which climate is better. (laughter) Nandarāṇī: Well, I like India. Prabhupāda: Come on. Parivrājakācārya: We've got a couple of guests. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nandarāṇī: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Come on, bring. Come here, forward. Parivrājakācārya: This is Ali. He has helped me translate one article on vegetarianism. He's very qualified in that area. Prabhupāda: Our...He'll understand English? Parivrājakācārya: Very well. Prabhupāda: Our mission is not to make the nonvegetarian as vegetarian. That will automatically be done. Our mission is to teach people how to love God. Ali: That's right. I've noticed that. I had that conversation with Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: And to love God we must have definite idea of God, our exchange. Just like materially also, if somebody loves somebody, one must know each other. Otherwise where there is question of love? Love means direct contact. So they speak of love of Godhead. Just like the Christian people, they say "Love of Godhead." But they have no idea who is God. So where is the question of love? It is an impractical proposition, love of Godhead. First of all, you must know who is God. If I love somebody, I must know him, what he is. So this is going on. They speak of love of Godhead, but they do not know who is God or what is God. Therefore they are misguided. Simply it is words. There is no practical value. Do you agree with this point or not? If you have no idea of God, if you have no business with God, then where is the question of love? What is the definition of love, huh? What is the definition of love? Ali: We talk about love, but I think you should personally, an individual should experience. My definition would be, a, uh, unworthy. Prabhupāda: Definition of love, you can explain what is definition of love. Parivrājakācārya: I can explain the definition of bhakti. Prabhupāda: No, you bring another word. But explain it, what is love. In Vedic language you get every definition. Love means two persons, both of them; beloved and the lover, is it not? The first condition of love means there must be two persons. What do you think? There must be two persons when there is question of love. Hari-śauri: Yes, it's a reciprocation. Prabhupāda: Ah. Otherwise where is love? What is this? Unless there are two persons, where is the question of love? Try to understand one step by step. Ali: Does that mean one loses himself? Personality? Prabhupāda: What does he say? Parivrājakācārya: Does that mean that one loses himself? Prabhupāda: Why? Then where is love? Why shall I lose? I exist, you exist, then there is love. If I am lost, then with whom there will be to love? *Ali: I didn't mean losing the existence, but losing the self*-importance. *Hari-śauri: Self*-interest. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very important thing. That is important, yes. But love means two persons, there is exchange. Giving something, taking something, feeding something and to eat something, and speaking everything, no secrecy, and to know everything of the other person. When these things are transacted, then there is love. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuṅkte bhojayate caiva guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati. If I love you and if I have got some secrecy, I don't disclose to you, that is not perfect love. I must deal with you open*-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. This is one of the basic principles. I shall invite you to eat with me and I shall accept your invitation to eat with me. I shall give you some presentation, you shall give me some presentation. In this way love develops. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there. Otherwise, where there is question of love? To appreciate God is great, that is not love. That is simply appreciation. But when we actually give everything to God and take everything from Him, you talk with Him of your mind, He talks with you. You give Him to eat and whatever He gives you eat. In this way there is question of love. Simply appreciation of the greatness of God, that is good, in God consciousness, but that is not love. The love stage is different. Ali: How can one understand God's love? Prabhupāda: This is the process, I've described. We have got Deity of the Lord, we offer foodstuff prepared very nicely, and whatever leftover is there, we eat. We dress very nicely with flowers, with ornaments; we give Him a nice place to sit down, to sleep. He also looks after our comfort. In this way, exchange of love. Ali: Just like when there is a mutual understanding, then... Prabhupāda: No, there must be practical display. Ali: Practical display. Prabhupāda: Yes, simply understanding will not do. That is not love, that is appreciation. Ali: How can I be practical about something without understanding that thing, because I... Prabhupāda: Understanding, guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati. You try to understand God, and He'll explain what He is. You try to understand. Ali: But I have been trained through intellect, trying to discern things the way that intellect functions. And I don't have spiritual training. Prabhupāda: That training is given here, spiritual training. Ali: And therefore, how am I to understand? Prabhupāda: To understand, you have to take the training, spiritual training. You have to understand the words which God wants to let you know about Him. These are spiritual training. Spiritual training means first of all you must have little faith that "I shall be intimately related with God." Unless you have got this faith, there is no question of spiritual training. If you simply remain satisfied, "God is great, let Him remain at His home, let me remain at my home," that is not love. You must be eager to know God more and more intimately. Then the next stage is how to know about God unless you associate with persons who are simply busy in God's business. They have no other business. Just like we are training people, they are simply meant for God's business. They have no other business. How people will understand about God, how they will be benefited, they are simply planning in so many ways. So we have to associate with such persons who are convinced about God and trying to spread His knowledge throughout the world. You have to mix with, associate with them. First of all, you must have faith that, "In this life I shall understand thoroughly about God." Then associate with persons who are busy with God's business. Then you act as they are acting. Then your misconception of material life will be finished. Then you'll have attachment. Then you'll have taste. In this way you'll develop love of God. Ali: I already have the faith. Prabhupāda: That you have to increase. Simply the preliminary faith, that is very good, but unless that faith is increased more and more, then there is no progress. Parivrājakācārya: There is danger of losing that faith. Prabhupāda: Yes, if you do not try to make progress and go forward progressively, then there is danger whatever little faith you have got, that will diminish. Hari-śauri: Your understanding of God tends to remain somewhat theoretical until one actually does something practical. Then it actually manifests as something solid, as a reality. Prabhupāda: Theoretical and practical. Scientific knowledge means both, theoretical and practical. (someone enters) If you like, you can sit down there. I have no objection if you sit down. Jñānagamya: It is up to you, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, I am... Everyone, you can... Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is practical. They are fully engaged how to make progressive advance in love of Godhead. They have no other business. Hari-śauri: Nowadays generally, if someone is very religious and he wants to do some practical action, he usually acts on the social platform. Prabhupāda: No, there, everywhere practical action. Just like all the Muhammadans, they go to the mosque, five times they offer prayer. That is good, very good. Ali: Even to be attentive, to pay a lot of attention. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but that is also good, but if one is twenty*-four-hours attentive, that is better. Ali: But we tend to forget things that we don't see. Hari-śauri: They don't see God, so the tendency is to forget. Prabhupāda: Why you don't see God? When you see the picture of God, you don't see God? When you see the picture of your father, don't you see your father? You see or not? Suppose you have got picture of your father. When you see the picture, do you see your father or not? Ali: Well, I see him physically. *Prabhupāda: Physical, everything is physical, subtle and gross. Suppose I am seeing you face to face. So I remember your face when you are not here, I am thinking of you, I am not seeing you? This is also physical. I am seeing with the mind, I am seeing with the eyes. So what is the difference between eyes and mind? They are all physical. Why do you take only the eyes as physical, not the mind? There are physical elements*-earth, water, air, fire, mind, intelligence, ego. They are all physical. So either see with your eyes or see with your mind, it is physical. Ali: Is the seeing important? Prabhupāda: No, important. No, because if you have no eyes to see spiritual, you have to see physically, and they are all physical. Either you see with your eyes or touch with your hand or smell with your nose or lick up with your tongue, everything is physical. Ali: I can feel the presence of the thing dominating things. Prabhupāda: Presence is there, because just like a nice mango. So you cannot appreciate this mango simply by seeing. Natural tendency when you get a good mango, you smell. So why not see? Sufficient? Why you smell? So these are all misconceptions. Different things have to be realized in different processes. Suppose you are a good singer, I see you. So I cannot appreciate simply by seeing you. I shall ask you, "All right, please sing one song." When I hear you, then I shall appreciate. Is it not? So the physical experience by different senses, gross and subtle senses. Ali: Our senses are imperfect. Prabhupāda: Senses are imperfect always. Therefore we have to develop the perfect senses. That is spiritual. Just like you are working with your hands, this is physical. But this hand is not working. The spirit soul within the body, he is working. As soon as he is out, what is the value of your hand? When the spirit soul is out of your body, then I am asking you, "Mr. Ali, Mr. Ali, get up." Who is hearing? Your ear is there, but you cannot hear, finished. Therefore the spiritual senses, that is real sense. Do you follow what I say? You have got ear, but when the spirit soul is out of your body, in spite of possessing this physical ear, you cannot hear. Ali: I believe in this one because when I dream... Prabhupāda: No, believe or not believe, these are facts, that physical senses are not absolute. Ali: That's exactly what I mean. It's so obvious. Prabhupāda: Physical senses not absolute; it is the spiritual senses that acts through the physical instrument and utilize it. Ali: I feel man has already accepted his physical deficiency. I was just watching Olympic, and it seemed so pathetic, they were just trying to jump higher and higher, and they couldn't do it. Prabhupāda: No, the physical senses are to be spiritualized. You cannot appreciate God by physical senses. But when your physical senses are purified and it is spiritualized, then you can... Ali: That's exactly what I meant when I said that whatever we see... *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is process, how to... Just like iron rod, it is iron rod, but if you put into the process, that means if you put into the fire, a time will come the iron rod will be red hot and it is fire. Similarly, if you engage your physical senses only-(aside:) here is candle*-when you engage your physical senses in the service of the Lord, then the physical quality of the senses will be diminished or gone, your spiritual sense activities will begin. This is practical. Ali: Are we closer to this practicality when we sleep? Prabhupāda: Yes, when you are practiced. Sleep means what you do when you are awakened, the same thing you'll dream, that's all. Physical, I've told you there are two phases of senses. Gross and subtle. When the gross senses are not working, the subtle senses work. Just like you dream, your mind is working. Although your hands and legs are taking rest, but mind is working. That is dreaming. So there are two phases of physical senses, gross and subtle. When the gross senses are stopped, the subtle senses continue to work. And when you are above even subtle senses, that is spiritual. Sometimes we misunderstand subtle senses are spiritual. No. Spiritual senses are different from the subtle stages. Ali: These are the different stages. *Prabhupāda: Yes, of coming to the platform of spiritual senses. And when you come to the spiritual senses, then you can understand God, you can understand your relationship with God, you can talk with God, you can serve God, and so on, so on. The same example, just like iron rod as it is, it is not able to burn anything. But when the iron rod is sufficiently hot, red*-hot, touch anywhere, it will burn. Similarly, from this physical platform, if you begin these spiritual activities, then stage will come when you'll act only spiritually, there will be no more material activity. That is the stage of bhakti, that is real platform of bhakti, when one is acting only spiritually, there is no material activity. That is the process. So if we adopt that process, it is possible to come to the platform of spiritual sense activity. That is possible. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. That is purification process. And when one is completely purified, then he acts with his spiritual senses. Ali: Is it necessary to get to know the true self before knowing God? Prabhupāda: Yes, God means spirit, supreme spirit. If you cannot understand what is spirit, then how you'll understand God? You must know what is spirit, what is matter, and when we have little understanding of the spirit, then we can make progress spiritually. Ali: How does one get to know the true spirit? Prabhupāda: By knowledge, by knowledge. Just like you are talking. How you are talking? Because the spirit soul is there within you. As soon as it is gone, you cannot talk. Your this body and everything will remain, but you cannot talk, you cannot understand, everything is finished. So this is matter. Body is matter, and the force which is helping you to talk, that is spirit. Now you have to understand it thoroughly. Ali: Yes, I'm aware of that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ali: But I'm also aware that I'm very ignorant. Prabhupāda: No, if you are aware of that thoroughly, then there is no question of ignorance. Ali: But I feel the presence of the spirit is there. Prabhupāda: Yes, that everyone knows the distinction. Ali: But, uh, the relativity... Prabhupāda: Yes, so that requires the training and guidance of spiritual master. Therefore called spiritual master. You have to... Just like if you want to be an engineer, you must be trained under some engineer. Similarly, if you want to be trained up spiritually, then you must accept a spiritual master. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] must, otherwise not possible. Training. So spiritual master trains with these books, and explanation, practical demonstration. In this way the student makes progress spiritually. Ali: I am a Muslim and I practice dervishism. Prabhupāda: That, that... This is also a misunderstanding. You are thinking you are a Muslim. Why? Ali: It's just by normal definition. Prabhupāda: Yes, because you are born of a Muslim father or a Muslim country. Ali: No, no, in fact I didn't believe in religion at all. Prabhupāda: Then you believe, that is also belief. You are believing something is this body, and when this body is left over, then you will believe something else. Ali: For sure, my belief was disbelief. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, belief changes. Belief changes with the change of the body. Just like a man is thinking that "I am Iranian," "I am Indian," so long this body is Iranian or Indian or American. But the body will change. Then he'll think otherwise. So this belief is also temporary. It will be finished with the body. The body is temporary, and the belief, along with the body, that is also temporary. But I am eternal. That is to be understood. That is spiritual knowledge. Ali: Sure, that is what I am practicing right now. *Prabhupāda: Yes, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. The spirit soul, which is eternal, which is never lost, even by the annihilation of the body, we have to understand about that thing, that is spiritual knowledge. That is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā lesson. First to understand what you are, you are not this body. This is spiritual knowledge. When one understands thoroughly that "I am not this body, I am spirit soul," then he is no more Hindu, Muhammadan, or Christian or nothing. He's spirit soul, brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. That is called brahma-bhutaḥ. At that time, there is no such conception, that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am this," "I am that." Because he's not body. He's not body. That is pure understanding. And then spiritual knowledge begins. So long I shall think myself as Hindu, Muslim, Christian, there is no spiritual knowledge. That is material knowledge. Ali: This was just only a presentation of the... Prabhupāda: Yes, presentation. We are everywhere in that platform, but we have to transcend this platform. Then we come to the spiritual platform. Then spiritual knowledge begins. And if we stick to this platform, then there is no spiritual knowledge. That is material knowledge, but try to understand spiritual knowledge. That is the position. To try to understand spiritual knowledge from material platform, but when you actually come to the spiritual platform, then spiritual knowledge is perfect. Just like another example, just like water. Theoretically you learn swimming. That is not swimming. You get into the water and practically learn swimming. Then it is swimming. Theoretical knowledge, that you put yourself in the water, you move your hands like this, move your legs like this, that is good. But it will be... Just like in the airplane before starting, they give so much instruction. It is going on really. But when actually the airplane is danger, that will be practical. Is it not? They are giving so much instruction, who cares for it? (laughter) They're talking and people are hearing. But when it will be practically demonstrated, that is real life. So, spiritual knowledge, understanding theoretically, it is little good, but when it is done practically, then it is reality. Ali: The way I look at it, it's better to talk about God than to talk about... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good. One must be serious, that we are talking about God, so what is my God realization? That is nice. Otherwise, if I go on life after life talking about God and there is no God realization... That is going on. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Parivrājakācārya: We can always tell by what people are serving, what they really are loving. If they are serving just their body, then no matter what they are saying, we know... Prabhupāda: Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Officially, God, God, God, but result is dog. Love is there, love is... That is natural. I want to love. Everyone wants to love. But the, unless he loves God, he'll never be happy. So simply talking of love, and if the love is simply transferred to dog, then where is the love of God? So such kind of talking of called śrama eva hi kevalam. It is simply waste of time and energy. You must practically come to the platform how to love God. So it is a great science, and it is available for everyone to understand and act. It is a great science, one can take advantage. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a sectarian religious movement, no. It is a science, how to understand God, how to love Him. Ali: Shouldn't there be a balance between physical existence and spiritual existence? Like between body and spirit? *Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, you must have spiritual understanding, then spiritual study. If you have no spiritual understanding, then why spiritual study? All these scientists, they are trying to understand the spirit soul by material, on material platform. Therefore they are being misled. Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā, to distinguish between matter and spirit it is negatively described: nainaṁ chindanti śāstrāṇi. Find out. The spirit soul is there which cannot be cut into pieces by any instrument. Hari-śauri: Nainaṁ chindanti śāstrāṇi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ [Bg. 2.23]. Prabhupāda: Ah, nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. Pāvakaḥ means fire. It is never burned into the fire. It is never cut into pieces with instrument or any weapon. So if you study these two points, anything you take, it can be cut into pieces, within our physical experience. And anything within our physical experience, it can be burned. Even the iron, so hot, it can be burned and liquified by proper temperature. Even stone, it can be burned, it can be liquified. The glass, glass is nothing but liquidified stone, everyone knows it. Purīfied by chemicals, that's all. Then? Hari-śauri: Na cainaṁ kledayanty āpo. Prabhupāda: Anything physical, it can be moistened. You keep in the water, it will be soft. Na kledayanty? Āpo? Hari-śauri: Na śoṣayati mārutaḥ. *Prabhupāda: And evaporation. Even the ocean can be evaporated by the air. So we have got this experience of the five or eight elements. They are physical because they are subjected to be cut into pieces, to be burned into fire, to be moistened, to be evaporated. But it is, soul is not affected. Then we have to think of-what is that. Therefore these scientists, they are puzzled. When the soul goes out of the body, they cannot imagine what thing is missing that the body is dead. Because they have physical ideas. But it is not physical. So everything is described. We have to study thoroughly and apply our brain. The brain must be sharp and finer tissues. Then spiritual understanding will be there. With dull brain, physical brain, we cannot understand. That is not possible. Therefore to spiritualize the brain, the senses, requires a process. Just like to keep a vegetable in frozen condition, it requires a process. Similarly, we have to undergo a process to come to this spiritual platform, to understand the spirit soul, the supreme being, God, and the relationship and the activities. We must adopt the process. And those who are adopting the process, they are making progress. Practical. So it is not impractical. Thousands of these Europeans and Americans, they, say, a few years ago, four, five years ago-say, at most ten years ago-they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa, what is God. But now you ask them, they will explain. They are not foolish, they are not uneducated. So unless they are situated in the spiritual platform, how they are sticking? So there is process, and the process is practical. Anyone who adopts this process, he'll be able to understand. The process is meant for human being. Any human being who adopts this process will understand. So ask any one of them, these European, American boys, "Are you sticking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness sentimentally or understanding?" Ask them. They will explain, "Yes, understanding." Not blindly. Blindly one cannot stick*-that is not possible. No, there is God, there is possibility to come in touch with God, there is possibility to serve Him directly, to see Him face to face, if we adopt the process. *Ali: What I'm practicing now is that I'm battling against my nafs*-the commanding self, as it's known in dervishism. And it amazes me, the way it acts, so mischievous, so dishonest, so many faces that I can only catch out very few, very few. It's always a bit late, after anger, I recognize the presence of anger. Prabhupāda: Yes, any process you adopt, it doesn't matter, provided it helps you to the platform of loving God, that is approved. Because without coming to the platform of loving God, you cannot be satisfied. That is not possible. So you can adopt any process, it doesn't matter. If it brings you to the platform of loving God, then you'll be happy. We do not say that this process is bona fide, that process is not bona fide. We say any process you adopt, it doesn't matter, if it helps you to bring to the platform of loving God. Ali: True, because the road is the same, the goal is the same. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhakti... [SB 1.2.6]. Because unless you come to the platform of loving God, then you cannot be happy. And so long we have got the tendency to love something other than God, then we shall not be happy. That is the test. Ali: What is the purpose of this internal dialogue? Internal dialogue, we talk to ourselves all the time, we can't be silent. Prabhupāda: You talk with whom? There must be second person. When you talk, you are one person, and another person must be there. Who is that other person? With whom you talk? Ali: With the self. Prabhupāda: Then you are lunatic. Just like a lunatic, he talks alone. Ali: No, this is silent talk, like the mind, you can't stop. Prabhupāda: No, the idea is when you talk of talking, there must be two. So self, then you have to admit the self becomes two, otherwise there is no talking. This is good, that one is Superself, another is subordinate self. So when the subordinate self is able to talk with the Superself, then he gets right direction, his life is very successful. Ali: Is the Superself a spirit? *Prabhupāda: Yes, when you say self, it is spirit. Spirit, the Supreme Spirit, and the subordinate spirit. The Supreme Being and the subordinate being. That is also explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. You find out this verse: Hari-śauri: "I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness.' Prabhupāda: The Supreme Being, the Supreme Self, is situated in everyone's heart. That is being explained. Go on. Hari-śauri: "By all the Vedas am I to be known; indeed, I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas." Purport? Prabhupāda: Yes, purport. Yes. *Hari-śauri: Purport: "The Supreme Lord is situated as Paramātmā in everyone's heart, and it is from Him that all activities are initiated. The living entity forgets everything of his past life, but he has to act according to the direction of the Supreme Lord, who is witness to all his work. Therefore he begins his work according to his past deeds. Required knowledge is supplied to him, and remembrance is given to him, and he forgets, also, about his past life. Thus, the Lord is not only all*-pervading; *He is also localized in every individual heart. He awards the different fruitive results. He is not only worshipable as the impersonal Brahman, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the localized Paramātmā, but as the form of the incarnation of the Vedas as well. The Vedas given the right direction to the people so that they can properly mold their lives and come back to Godhead, back to home. The Vedas offer knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa in His incarnation as Vyāsadeva is the compiler of the Vedānta*-sūtra. The commentation on the Vedānta-sūtra by Vyāsadeva in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam gives the real understanding of Vedānta-sūtra. The Supreme Lord is so full that for the deliverance of the conditioned soul He is the supplier and digester of foodstuff, the witness of his activity, the giver of knowledge in the form of Vedas and, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the teacher of the Bhagavad-gītā. He is worshipable by the conditioned soul. Thus God is all-good; *God is all*-merciful. Antaḥ-praviṣṭaḥ śāstā janānām. The living entity forgets as soon as he quits his present body, but he begins his work again, initiated by the Supreme Lord. Although he forgets, the Lord gives him the intelligence to renew his work where he ended in his last life. So not only does a living entity enjoy or suffer in this world according to the dictation from the Supreme Lord situated locally in the heart, but he receives the opportunity to understand Vedas from him. If one is serious to understand the Vedic knowledge, then Kṛṣṇa gives the required intelligence. Why does He present the Vedic knowledge for understanding? Because a living entity individually needs to understand Kṛṣṇa. Vedic literature confirms this: yo 'sau sarvair vedair gīyate. In all Vedic literature, beginning from the four Vedas, Vedānta-sūtra and the Upaniṣads and Purāṇas, the glories of the Supreme Lord are celebrated. By performing Vedic rituals, discussing the Vedic philosophy and worshiping the Lord in devotional service, He is attained. Therefore the purpose of the Vedas is to understand Kṛṣṇa. The Vedas give us direction to understand Kṛṣṇa and the process of understanding. The ultimate goal is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Vedānta-sūtra confirms this in the following words: tat tu samanvayāt. One can attain perfection by understanding Vedic literature, and one can understand his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead by performing the different processes. Thus one can approach Him and at the end attain the supreme goal, who is no other than the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In this verse, however, the purpose of the Vedas, the understanding of the Vedas and the goal the Vedas are clearly defined." Prabhupāda: Veda means the book of knowledge. So any book of knowledge which gives you direction how to understand God and how to love Him, that is perfect. Ali: But this knowledge cannot be attained unless we are aware of the spiritual. Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise... Any knowledge you have to acquire, either from the Supersoul within your self or His representative outside, you have to learn it. Ali: Why have we chosen this? This seems so irrelevant... *Prabhupāda: Rituals are meant for the neophytes who are given education to begin with. But if he's stuck up with rituals, do not make any further progress, then his progress is checked. You have to go, progress, more progress. Instead of having no sense of God, they, if it is prescribed that "Go to the mosque and pray to God, five times," that is good, ritualistic. At least you're accepting there is God, I must offer. Similarly... This is Muslim process. Hindu process, they say go to the temple and see God. And this Christian, go to the church and offer... The subject matter is the same*-accept God. Accept God. But the ultimate, shall we say, goal is not only accept God... They go to God for some material benefit, because they have no other idea. Like the Christians say, "O God, give us our daily bread." I do not know what the Muhammadans say in the prayer. Hindus also, they go to God, "Sir, I am very poor, give me some money," or "I am diseased, please cure me." So these things are the same in different ways according to country and customs. But it is good because they have approached God. That much is good. They are accepting there is God. That much is good. But when he makes further progress, that there is God, what kind of person He is, what is His business, then you make further progress. So these, for the neophyte, these ritualistic formula is good, but he must make further progress. Instead of godlessness, these processes are better. Let him go to the mosque, let him go to the temple, let him go to the church. At least, let him maintain the idea of God. That is the ritualistic. Then there is further progress. One must be interested. But people are losing interest even in the neophyte stage. They're becoming godless. That is going on. So that is very dangerous. Instead of becoming godless, if somebody approaches God, it doesn't matter in some way, some ritual, it is better than this atheist class of men. At least they are accepting God, and if they offer prayers sincerely, God is there within your heart, He'll gradually reveal. The more you become purified, the more He reveals. Then He'll talk with you. So everything depends on the sincerity and seriousness. And if we take these ritualistic ceremonies, "Now I've gone to church or mosque, I have gone to temple, finish. Now let me do whatever I like." Then that is waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. That is simply waste of time. That is going on practically. He doesn't want to see "How much progress I have made in the matter of loving God." That he does not inquire. He takes God as order supplier. So "He's supplying my order, that's nice." He'll never learn to supply the order of God. Neither he will come any stage on that platform. The highest stage is to supply the order of God, not make God my order supplier. That is neophyte stage. Just like a small child, he simply wants to take supply from the father. But when the child is grown up and he's educated, he wants to see "How I can supply the order of parents." That is good stage. "My parents have taken so much pain to raise me, now I am educated, now they are old man..." Sentiment, I am speaking, this family sentiment. "I must see my..." (someone enters) Come on. The whole day. That is the stage of love, that "I have taken supplies from my father so long, now I must supply the order of the father." That is the stage of love. I'll not take. I have taken so much, sufficient. Now I'll not take anything from my parents, I shall simply supply what they want. That is good son, loving son. That is perfection of spiritual or religious life, when we love God and we are prepared to sacrifice anything for God. That is perfection. So, whole day you were engaged? Atreya Ṛṣi: Kṛṣṇa's mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Here is love of God. Whole day he was engaged to serve God, that is love. Atreya Ṛṣi: We have a nice building for Kṛṣṇa, it's very nice. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Atreya Ṛṣi: It is in the middle of the city. It is the one I was explaining to you the other day. So we went to the notary, and it takes a long time, because it's a lot of red tape. And also the lights went off. The lights went off in the middle of writing the agreement. So now we have the agreement, by your grace, it is nice. If you feel good, maybe you can visit it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tomorrow morning I'll go? Atreya Ṛṣi: Well, I would like it when traffic is low, because it's in the city. Prabhupāda: When it is, traffic is...? Atreya Ṛṣi: It is in the heart of the city. Prabhupāda: No, when the traffic will be low? Atreya Ṛṣi: Thursday is very good, otherwise... It should be both cool... I mean they're living there, it's not... Hari-śauri: Six o'clock. Atreya Ṛṣi: Six o'clock the traffic's heavy. Hari-śauri: Six o'clock. Prabhupāda: Morning? *Atreya Ṛṣi: Traffic is heavy. Iranians start early in the morning. The best time is Thursday. Thursday the traffic is not heavy. Thursday is nice, we can go there in twenty*-five minutes. Hari-śauri: [break] He says there's a lot of traffic even at six in the morning. *Atreya Ṛṣi: Iranians start work early. Some start at six*-thirty. *Prabhupāda: Six*-thirty. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, this is a very busy city. Some people work two, three shifts. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I can... Always traffic I see. Dayānanda: But there is no work on Thursday. Atreya Ṛṣi: Thursday is very easy. We can go very fast and come back very fast. I have to call... Prabhupāda: That's all right, make arrangement. *Nava*-yauvana: Prabhupāda, some people confuse the chanting with the... Prabhupāda: Every people must be confused, because he has no training. Not some people. You say, "All people." Then it is all right. Atreya Ṛṣi: This is one sort of confusion that he wants to explain. Prabhupāda: You should know everyone is confused. If you have got capacity, then you make him peaceful. Otherwise, you expect everyone is confused. It is a different life. Unless one is very, very fortunate, he cannot understand it. So confusion is natural. There is not the question of some people or other, everyone is confused. They do not know what is spiritual life, what is spirit. Everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So how he'll not be confused? The very beginning is confusion. So long one is confused with this bodily conception of life, he's called in the śāstra animal. The animal is always confused. He does not know what is life, what is aim. Atreya Ṛṣi: Practically material life is very confusing, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is confusion. Atreya Ṛṣi: One is thinking that one can enjoy and goes after something, and it is not there. Everybody's trying to grab for themselves. Very confusing. Prabhupāda: Therefore the śāstra says, yenātmā suprasīdati. Atreya Ṛṣi: Authorized name of God. *Prabhupāda: Yes, name means authorized. Name means authorized. Not fictitious. If you chant fictitious name, that will not be effective. But if you chant real name of God, then you'll be purified. So if you have got name of God, chanting, there is no question of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. You chant. If you have got the name, real name of God, chant it. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ. God is unlimited, therefore He must have unlimited names also. But the name must be God's name; then you chant, you'll be purified. So there is no question of sectarianism in this movement. We are recommending that you chant the holy name of the Lord. Do it. Is there any objection? Suppose you say that you are Muhammadan. If I say you chant the holy name of God, have you got any objection? Ali: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have got objection? Ali: Oh, no, no, chanting, I do chant myself. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. We are preaching this. We don't say that you become one of us. You chant the holy name of the Lord, that's all. Ali: There's no such thing as "one of us," "one of you," anyway, because the thing is the same. If one is true (indistinct) there is no difference. Prabhupāda: Then when you are purified, you'll understand what is God, what God wants you to do, what is your relationship with God, so on, so on, so on. Atreya Ṛṣi: And other devotees of God, you will understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. To understand God means to understand everything. Ali: Because everything is God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam eva vijñātaṁ bhavanti. This is Vedic instruction. If you simply understand God, then you understand everything. Therefore God says janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. "If anyone understands Me factually, then, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9], then after giving up this body, he's not going to accept any more material body. He comes to Me." So simply try to understand God. And that is possible simply by chanting the holy name of God. Very easy. It doesn't matter. Either you are Iranian or Indian or, chant the name of, holy name of God. I think there should (not) be any objection for this movement. Eh? What do you think? That's all. We are simply pleading, "My dear sir, please chant the holy name of God." Who will have any objection? Nobody will have any. Do it. There is no confusion. If you are confused, chant the holy name of God, you'll be out of confusion. Tell them like that. Everyone should join with us and preach this cult. This is not a cult, this is a science, that you chant the holy name of God, that's all. You have seen that house? Dayānanda, no, was with you? Dayānanda? Atreya Ṛṣi: It happened very quickly this time. We have been looking for a year, over a year. Many hundreds of houses we have seen. But this time, by your mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Atreya Ṛṣi: You will see it. Prabhupāda: So make arrangement on Thursday. At any time, we shall go. Atreya Ṛṣi: It is both nice location and a nice small house. We can also get a bigger one nearby, and a bigger one, we can take the whole city. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Later on. Later on. No, we can member anyone, because we are proposing very pure thing, "You chant the holy name of God." Who will object? Atreya Ṛṣi: You should let Dayānanda Prabhu and I live a thousand years. We will buy the whole city. Prabhupāda: I shall go there. I am going. (devotees offer obeisances) So thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give this one garland to this boy and another to Atreya Ṛṣi. (end) *Morning Walkand Room Conversation-*-August 9, 1976, Tehran Prabhupāda: And mix with mustard oil and this, what is called, eggplant. Eggplant roasted in the fire and put with little mustard oil, salt and chilis, it becomes very tasteful. So puffed rice and that, they take in Bengal. That is tiffin, for breakfast. Formerly they were happy simply by eating palatable dishes according to... Ātreya Ṛṣi: Today they have become so rich they cannot eat. Prabhupāda: That's it. Simply they can eat meat. Prabhupāda: Drinking is prohibited. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, absolutely not. The modern Muslims drink. Prabhupāda: Therefore I say drinking is prohibited. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prohibited. Yes. It is not permitted, prohibited. Prabhupāda: Yes, I say prohibited. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Muslim religion, it seems to me, is closer to Vedic culture than Christian. [break] Prabhupāda: ...given to the modern scientist one proposal, egg proposal. You explain. Hari-śauri: That if the scientist are so expert then they should be able to back up their claim of life coming from chemicals. Then why can't they produce an egg which will give life? They can take some chemicals and make the white, and take some little coloring to make it yellow inside, and wrap it up in some modern synthetic casing, and then put it in an incubator and let it produce life. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? These rascals, it is proposed that life comes from chemicals. So take a small egg and analyze, find out the chemicals, same chemicals combine together, and bring life. Why? What is the answer? He's for the modern scientists. (laughter) He represents them. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And the scientists will sit on the eggs? Prabhupāda: Scientist may not be. They're putting the incubator, producing so many chickens. So why the egg is taken from the chicken? Why not manufacture and produce hundreds and thousands of chickens, chemical? First of all, begin with chicken then with other. Parivrājakācārya: They say they are working on this. *Prabhupāda: Rascal, working, it is already being done, so what is your credit? We are working. You may work also, but what is your credit? Suppose if you become successful. What is your credit? It is already being done by the chicken. Why should you take the laureate title, Dr. such*-and-such. Give it to the chicken. What they can do? Can they produce a seed of this, just like one seed produce so many things? Bījāhaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. Where is your credit? [break] Mines, as soon as it is national, nobody will take. In 1950, twenty-five years, twenty-six years ago, I was in Madras, Gauḍīya Maṭha, and there is a bus stop in front of the temple. So every bus was making some sound, huuuuuung, but when nothing was properly oiled. Machine is going to hell when it is managed by the government. As soon as there is government management, nobody wants. So long there is proprietorship, the proprietor takes care that "My machine will go bad if I don't take care." But who cares for that? That showing that so much oil purchased, who is going to check it? People have become dishonest. On account of godlessness, everyone is dishonest. He's dishonest to himself even. Doesn't take care of the body properly. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Therefore you cannot expect good qualities of the human society without injecting God consciousness. [break] ...in the mass of people amongst themselves. Do they fight very much amongst themselves? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Not so much. They are not as peaceful as Indians. They are not as pious as Indians. Prabhupāda: They cannot be. In India still you'll find hundreds and thousands of men are going to take bath in the Ganges in the morning. They might have only one cloth and one napkin. Still, they will take twice bath with the napkin, they change the cloth and wash it and spread it on the ground. By the time he finishes his bathing, the cloth is dry. That is India's advantage. And he puts some fresh cloth. And the napkin is also dry. And he'll become refreshed. And in his loṭā he'll take some water of the Ganges and he'll go home. In Vṛndāvana you'll find many thousands in the morning, with loṭā they go out, evacuate somewhere, and then wash hands, mouth, with cloth, taking bathing in the Ganges, Yamunā. Now they are polluting the Yamunā water, the government. In Vṛndāvana government is opening oil refinery, and people are being encouraged, "These are new temples." Everywhere people are being degraded. They have no tendency to become purified, God conscious, honest. Because they do not believe in the next birth. This garden belongs to the palace? No. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: It so*-called belongs to the people, to the government. But here palace has a lot of influence. Prabhupāda: Yes, the king must have. That is... Clean here. Hari-śauri: No they're just looking. Probably the amount of cleaners that's been past, this should be the cleanest spot in the whole park by now. (Iranian men talking) Iranian: Pustu.(?) Prabhupāda: Tustu(?) language, tustu. This language resembles like that. This Irani language. [break] And they are claiming it is ours. Nobody has created anything. God has created for His pleasure. Everything is God's property, and they have made an unfavorable situation, "My property." Now here is a city, it is all right, there is no trouble. If I say it is my property and you say it is your property, then there is trouble. Then there is immigration department, "Why you are coming here?" Then the dogs barking, yow yow yow. This is going on as civilization. First of all, they claim God's property falsely their own, and they create a situation. And for this purpose the whole world is working, how to create a bad situation of proprietorship right on God's property, that's all. *Nava*-yauvana: The statement made the other day by the king that all the forests and natural resources were made by God. No man can make these things. Prabhupāda: The king? *Nava*-yauvana: The king said that. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. *Nava*-yauvana: But his conclusion was not correct. He said therefore these things are owned by the government which represents the people. He didn't understand. Prabhupāda: It belongs to God. This is accepted. And God... And everyone is God's son. Therefore as the son can enjoy the father's property, they can enjoy. But they cannot claim proprietorship. As directed by the father, one can enjoy the father's property, but he cannot claim that it is his property. This is the correct position. And the king is supposed to be representative of God to see that things are rightly going on, that's all. Nobody's unnecessarily claiming proprietorship. He should remind that "It is God's property. You can utilize it as far as you need; you don't take more. Whatever you need you take, but you cannot take more." Like the birds and beasts they are living. They do not make stock. They need to eat something, they'll eat some fruit, then they go away. When they are hungry they will go another tree. They never claim that "This is my tree, this is my fruit." This is natural. If you put a bag of rice here, the birds will come, they will eat some grains and go away. But a man, he'll go and try to stock something, and he will take more. Hari-śauri: But they say that that's intelligence, to make preparation for the future. Prabhupāda: Yes, to steal God's property is certainly intelligence. Very good intelligence. They must suffer. Must be punished. For this intelligence they must be punished. (men talking in background) So if they want to hear, these men...? Hari-śauri: Their idea is that God may have made everything, but now it's for us to divide up and enjoy between us. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: God may have made everything, but now He has no connection with it now. Prabhupāda: Why? He has made and He has no connection? What is this rascal theory? He has made everything and He has no connection. Hari-śauri: No, He gives up the connection. Prabhupāda: Why He gives up? He has made for His enjoyment. Why should He give up? Hari-śauri: They say that He's made for our enjoyment and it's for us to divide and enjoy. Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are rascal. Everything is done by somebody. Suppose if you organize one business. That is for your enjoyment. God has created anything, that is for His enjoyment. But you are sons of God, you can enjoy the property of the father as far as you require. Not more than, you cannot take more than that. Then other sons will claim and there will be fight. You live. You are son of God, you live at the expense of God. God has sufficient supply. But don't try to take more and stock. That is folly. You eat, you live very nicely. There is no prohibition. But you cannot take more than what you require. This is Bhāgavata communism. If you take more, you'll be punished. [break] ...our philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. The Indians are trained up like that. He is happy in whatever condition of life he is placed. He doesn't protest. Any Indian villager, he'll say "God has given me this position, that's all right." Therefore the modern man is complaining that in India, this God consciousness has made them lethargic. They do not do... They believe on the destiny. Actually they do. Actually they do. Therefore from the very beginning you'll find so nice philosophy, literature, but you won't find the modernized economic development. Big, big house, big, big road, no. There was no such attempt. Hari-śauri: They're not interested in increasing the unnecessary items. Prabhupāda: That's it. Why? If there is already sufficient supply of my necessities of life, why shall I waste my time? They knew how to utilize time. *Nava*-yauvana: One argument that people sometimes give when we say that the world was created for His pleasure, they say that God... Prabhupāda: How shall we go, we shall sit?. It is very... Hari-śauri: I think the earth is very damp. If you sit on it, it becomes wet. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You sit on another bench. There's many benches. Prabhupāda: The park belongs to government of the king. So you can come, sit down here, enjoy. Why should we claim proprietorship? Then there is trouble. Otherwise, it is kept very nicely. You come, sit down, enjoy the atmosphere. Everyone has got the right. But why shall we claim proprietorship unnecessarily and create trouble? Because you are allowed to sit down here, if you say, "From henceforward, I am the proprietor," then others will say, "Then I am the proprietor. Then why you are coming here?" Then there is trouble. *Nava*-yauvana: They say that God has no need to enjoy. *Prabhupāda: Beat him with shoes on his face. Because He has created and He has no need to enjoy. Why He has created? He's your father's servant, that He's created for you? He has created for His enjoyment. That is the tendency everywhere. I create something for my enjoyment. But I can allow others to enjoy also with me, that is another thing. How can you say that God has simply created for your enjoyment? What is his claim? Is there any practical example in the world, that somebody creates something for others? Is there any example? Why do you claim in this way, which is unusual? What is the ground of your this rascal philosophy? Wherefrom you get this idea that I create something for somebody else? I create for myself, for my enjoyment. But I can allow you to enjoy with me. That is another thing. A father creates family for his own enjoyment. Wife, children, he wants enjoyment*-society, family. Therefore he takes the risk of maintaining so many people. He feels some enjoyment, therefore he takes the risk. Otherwise he has no business. Why should he create unnecessary trouble to maintain a family, maintain wife, children and society? The principle is if you create something, it is created for your personal enjoyment. But I can allow my sons, my wife, my family members to enjoy with me. But the basic principle is for my enjoyment. This is natural. Where do you get this philosophy that...? What you said? That God cannot enjoy. *Nava*-yauvana: Yes, He doesn't need to enjoy. Prabhupāda: Why? *Nava*-yauvana: They say because He's not like human being. Prabhupāda: Because He's not like a human being, therefore He cannot enjoy. There are so many animals, they are not like human beings. Why they enjoy sex? Can you forbid him that "You are not like human being, you cannot enjoy"? This is all nonsense philosophy. Because they do not know what is God, what He is, what is His position, relationship, therefore these nonsense things are said. Parivrājakācārya: They think that God is their servant. Prabhupāda: Then there is no more God. God cannot be servant of anyone. God is master. As soon as He becomes servant, He's no more God. Then you are God. Then you do not know what is the meaning of God. Therefore you are rascal. You do not know the meaning of God and you are trying to explain God. Therefore you are a rascal. The difficulty is at the present moment, rascals are leading the human society. No sane man, only rascals. Their philosophy, their science, their politics, their sociology, because they are guided by the rascals, everything is bad. *Nava*-yauvana: They are the biggest cheaters, so everyone becomes cheater. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Difficulty is there is no education. Mūḍha. There is no education, there is no check, therefore people remain duṣkṛtina, sinful, mūḍha, rascal, lowest of the men, narādhama, and their so*-called education has no value, there is no real knowledge, therefore they are suffering. Why the government keeps police department? To check these sinful activities. But they do not know what is sinful activity. They are allowed to continue sinful activity. Dayānanda: They judge everything on the basis of what is good for humanity. Prabhupāda: But they do not know what is good because they are uneducated rascals. What do they know what is good for humanity? Dayānanda: Whatever gives pleasure to the greatest number of people. Prabhupāda: Pleasure... So that is child. The child also feels pleasure with something. But it is the duty of the parent to train him to the right point of view. The child takes pleasure playing the whole day. But the father does not allow him. If you leave, let the child seeks his own pleasure, then you are spoiling him. Then there is no need of becoming your father, guardian, let him be spoiled by his whimsical pleasure. There is no need of training, schooling, colleges. There is no need. In my childhood I was not willing to go to the schools. My mother forced, by force she used to... My father was lenient and my mother kept a special man, yamadhara(?), that, "Your duty is to take him by force to the school." Yes. My father, my mother would complain that "Your boy did not go to school." "Oh, he did not go to school?" And I was sure he was very affectionate. "Why?" "No, I shall go tomorrow." Then father, "All right, he will go tomorrow, that's all right." But that tomorrow will never come. This is my practical. My mother forced me. So I thought, "It is pleasure. Why shall I go to school? Let me play whole day." But it is the duty of the guardian to see that this is not pleasure, this is spoiling. A child may think something pleasure, but the guardian should not think that this is pleasure. This is spoiling him. Otherwise why the guardians are required? Why government is needed, why king is needed, why father is needed, why guru is needed? Just to guide. Therefore whatever you think whimsically it is pleasure, the guru, the father, the king, the government, they should guide-"No, it is not pleasure, it is ruining. You should take like this." If the guru and father and the government, they are themselves rascals and fools, how they will guide? And that is the position. General public, they require guidance, but the guides themselves are rascals and fools, cheaters, bluffers. Therefore the condition, social condition... (passerby says something) He said in English? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. Prabhupāda: We shall go now? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Whenever you like. Hari-śauri: It's half past seven. Prabhupāda: No, I have no objection. This is nice place. *Nava*-yauvana: Because the leaders, they are thieves, they are taking the most, and then they... Prabhupāda: They have become thieves because their guardians did not care for them. This is going on paramparā. The paramparā is that God's instructions should be distributed. Evaṁ paramparā. But there is no followers of God's instruction. Therefore the fool's, rascal's paramparā is there. The father is a rogue and the son is rogue. The grandson is a rogue. What is wrong? The paramparā is rogue. And if they follow God's paramparā, then everything is all right. In the beginning, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam: [Bg. 4.1] "I said." That is perfect instruction. God is all perfect, He is speaking. Now you follow that speaking, then you become perfect. And if you follow Satan, then you become a rogue, thief. The difficulty is they are not following the words of God. And religion means the words of God. It doesn't matter what kind of religion it is. If they actually follow the words of God, they become good. Just like in the Ten Commandments, the good instructions are there. So what is the wrong there? You follow, you become a good man. Similarly, in Koran also, there are good instruction. You follow, you become a good man. After all, religion means to try to understand God. So if you sincerely want to understand God and follow His instruction, any religion, it doesn't matter, you become a good man. Comparatively, according to the time, circumstances may be... Just like, who told me? You told me that they cut throat of the lamb. There is a... Suppose that the blood goes to the Mecca side, still there is sense of God. A sense of God. Similarly, if they follow strictly the words of God, so everything is all right. *Dayānanda: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, nowadays when people follow this so*-called religion, they... *Prabhupāda: No, no, we are talking of religion, not so*-called religion. So-called religion is finished. That is not religion. Dayānanda: Then it is very difficult to find out what is real religion. Prabhupāda: Why not? Why the original, any religious scripture you can see. Dayānanda: Then they will interpret. Prabhupāda: No, that is wrong. You cannot interpret, you cannot change by resolution. That is not. Dayānanda: Then they must have someone to tell them. Then they must have an authority. Prabhupāda: It is already there, just like in the Bible. Dayānanda: A spiritual master, I mean. They must have the person. Prabhupāda: Yes, spiritual master, yes, must be there. That is Vedic injunction. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Spiritual, that I have already explained. Spiritual master, good father, good king, good teachers, they are required. That is defect. There is no guru, there is no spiritual master, there is no nice king, nice father, whole society... [break] (in room) If you find out sand and rocks, you must also (indistinct) there was water. And from water, vegetation comes. From vegetation, other life comes. What we speak, we don't speak unscientifically. It is scientific. How this rascal says all of a sudden in the sky there is rocks? Wherefrom the rock came? Hari-śauri: Well, they say originally from gas. Prabhupāda: Gas? Hari-śauri: Gas. Prabhupāda: So gas, without water, there cannot be gas. Hari-śauri: Gas and then it liquifies and then it solidifies. Prabhupāda: Liquid means water. So as soon as there is water, there is vegetation. You'll find everywhere. Water dries up, vegetable comes. Parivrājakācārya: Today they are exploring Mars, and they are saying that they're finding water on Mars. *Prabhupāda: Water's there. Everything must be there. Pañca*-bhūta, mahā-bhūta. Ether, then fire, then water, then land. Everything is described in the Bhāgavatam. They cannot speak nonsense. They can speak nonsense through the other literatures, but we cannot speak. Without water, how there is possibility of sand? Sand means it is salt. Parivrājakācārya: If you go out here, there is big desert. Prabhupāda: That means there was water. Parivrājakācārya: Yes, and under the desert always. I took a trip a few weeks ago, all over Iran, to the deserts, to villages, and always just forty feet, forty meters under the desert, lots of water. They would bring the water up and then there would be green, they would grow vegetables. So even here there's water. Prabhupāda: The water, sea, as it becomes solidified, the outer surface, by sunshine, they become, it is called sodium silicate. Salt is sodium chloride. So from sodium chloride, the sodium silicate. So cover(?) of the sea they can solidify by the sodium silicate. But underneath there is water. Just like our, this skin, bone, coming from where? We are eating liquid and or some vegetables or some whatever, they are becoming liquidified. And first transformation is blood. Blood is liquid, and from blood everything is coming. The muscle is coming, the bone is coming. The more the liquid portion becomes solidified by air, gas, then these things coming. The formation of this body beginning the liquid semina, liquid ovum, mix together. From liquid. Then they form pealike solid thing, from that liquid. And then the body forms. Wherefrom the solid body forms? The man injects liquid. Liquid inject, everything is coming. So wherefrom the solid molecules? By chemical composition the body forms, from liquid to solid. So as soon as you see some solid thing, you must know that it has come from liquid. Parivrājakācārya: It got its form from liquid. The form, it had to come from liquid somehow. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Yes, liquid. The discharge of semina is liquid. It is not solid. So how this body comes? You cannot bluff that a solid has come all of a sudden. There was liquid, or there is liquid. Hari-śauri: Well, they'll accept that there was liquid. Prabhupāda: Yes, then there must have been vegetables. As soon as there is liquid there is vegetation. Hari-śauri: Their argument is that because there's no atmosphere then there's no vegetation. *Prabhupāda: Oh, that is... That is another bogus. The atmosphere is the same everywhere. Little more. Just like... [break]... say in the sun planet there is living entity, there is fire. So what do you mean by atmosphere if even in fire there is life? Dahati pāvakaḥ. Bhagavad*-gītā. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. Pāvakaḥ means fire. Does not burn the soul. So where there is fire only, he develops fiery body. Not that by the fire it is finished. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. Where there is gas, air, nainam... Find out this verse. Acchedyo' yam adāhyo' yam. Hari-śauri: Gītā? *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā, yes. You do not read even. You should have reference immediately. Parivrājakācārya: Even here on the earth, even ice in the South Pole of the earth, they find much life inside the ice. Prabhupāda: Just see. Here inside the ice there are life. Parivrājakācārya: They are very surprised. They said how is this happening. Prabhupāda: Yes. Life is everywhere. This bogus theory there is no life, the atmosphere is different, it is bogus, simply bogus. Because spirit soul is never affected by any material atmosphere. That is the distinction between matter and spirit. It has nothing to do with this material atmosphere. They don't have knowledge, they are baffled. And those who have no knowledge, they are accepting. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: So where is question of atmosphere influence? Suppose there is rock and sand and always hot weather. That does not mean there cannot be any life. The life is never affected by all these things. Make propaganda about this knowledge. People will understand that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not joking; *it is something serious. That boy was saying that these scientist, they know me. What is this boy's name, this boy said about the so*-called astronomer, scientist? Who was this boy? Pradyumna: Who came last night? Hari-śauri: One of our boys, American boy, that tall boy. Pradyumna: Here in this temple? Hari-śauri: Yes. Jñānagamya. He used to do some science research as well. Parivrājakācārya: The scientists are like all materialists. They think if we have not seen it... Prabhupāda: You have to see from the book. Seeing from the book is real seeing. What you can see with these blunt eyes? I have seen in these navigators. They see in the different plans and books, and they direct their ship or airplane accordingly. How can he see where we are going? Hari-śauri: Just like they land an airplane. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got all plans and direction, and altitude, latitude, which direction is going on(?) in front of the pilot. So everything is there. In what position the plane is there, how high it is and how low it will be, where it is, everything. On that direction they can fly. Otherwise, what they can see with the eyes? At most ten miles, and it is running at six hundred miles? What ten miles will do them? So śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. Authoritative literature should be the eyes, not these blunt eyes. What is the value of these eyes? Here is authority: nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. You should go to the school, colleges, and from Bhagavad-gītā give them rascal knowledge. The whole world is in darkness, and these rascals are guiding them. You have tasted the baḍā? Nim baḍā? Pradyumna: This morning. Prabhupāda: Huh? Did you like it? Parivrājakācārya: It tasted very healthy. Prabhupāda: Healthy? Parivrājakācārya: Healthy. It tasted like it was good for me. Hari-śauri: That means it didn't taste very nice, but we accepted it was good. Parivrājakācārya: I know by my intelligence that it is good to keep eating, even though my tongue was saying "Stop." Prabhupāda: No, this nim is good. They say that if you eat at least two leaves of nim daily, you'll never lose your appetite, appetite will be continuing. Hari-śauri: Who can eat two leaves of nim? (laughing) Prabhupāda: No, if you practice, it is not impossible. Pradyumna: I ate them one time. Remember in Bombay I thought I had worms? You told me to eat nim? Prabhupāda: Effective? What happened? Pradyumna: Well, I didn't notice anything happened, but it was very, very bitter, so bitter. Prabhupāda: So that worms cured or not? Pradyumna: I don't know. Sometimes I think I have worms. Prabhupāda: You should not eat sweet. Parivrājakācārya: You cannot get nim in Iran. I have never seen a nim tree in Iran. Prabhupāda: No tree. In the desert, where is tree? All desert. All this Middle East, desert. So they can be allowed to eat meat. Otherwise, what they'll eat? So everyone must eat something. So if there is no vegetation, if there is no sufficient, they can be allowed. Parivrājakācārya: I visited some of these small villages in the south of Iran, and the tents of nomads who kept sheep, that was their life. They had a tent and they had hundreds of sheep, and they would move the tent every month. They would take the tent, for one month they would live here, next month they would move. Prabhupāda: Why they're changing? Parivrājakācārya: Because they're desert people. The sheep eat all the little green, and then they have to move on. Pradyumna: Same thing as the Bible. When the sheep eat up all the green in that place, then they have to go to another place with their sheep. In the Bible the same thing. All that Abraham, Joseph... Prabhupāda: Bible was produced here, in this desert. Jerusalem is not far away. Mecca, (indistinct), Arabia. Parivrājakācārya: All they had to eat was the milk of sheep and goats and sometimes when they would camp near a farm they would have vegetables. Sometimes. And then the meat of the sheep. Prabhupāda: And these dates. In the desert the date tree grows. Sometimes they eat camel also. Do they not? Parivrājakācārya: Yes. But I don't think if they... Prabhupāda: They cannot be strictly vegetarian; it is not possible. Parivrājakācārya: It is difficult. Prabhupāda: But even they eat meat they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, there is no harm. Parivrājakācārya: But now they are farming in the desert. The Iranian government has started farms. They are irrigating the land with water, and when they put water on the desert they get all kinds of vegetables and grains very easily. So if they do that then they can become vege... They have no excuse. The excuse of the people is that "We have to eat meat." Prabhupāda: They can have rains from the sky by chanting. The rain will fall from the sky. Who can check it? Kṛṣṇa gives the water from the sky. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. Parivrājakācārya: They say in the books that this area used to be all forest with many, many trees two to three thousand years ago. It was a very thick forest. But since then it has become desert, the rain has stopped since then. Prabhupāda: Because the yajña stopped. Pradyumna: The Sahara Desert used to be all trees, very fertile. Sahara Desert in Africa, it is the biggest desert in the world. Nothing... Prabhupāda: Sahara, Sahara. Pradyumna: Sahara Desert. It used to be very rich thousands of years ago, but then became desert. Hari-śauri: It's supposed to increase its size by ten miles every year. Pradyumna: Desert growth. Formerly, that city Carthage used to be there. Carthage was fighting Rome. Carthage was very rich, all farms. Prabhupāda: Cartharian civilization was very big civilization. The thing is that the more people become sinful, they'll be disturbed by this natural atmosphere. Therefore I'm surprised that moon planet is inhabited by pious inhabitants, how there can be desert? Pradyumna: But does moon planet have something to do with Pitṛs? Does the Pitṛ..., Pitṛloka is different? Prabhupāda: Pitṛ? Pradyumna: Pitā, Pitṛ? Prabhupāda: No, Pitṛloka is different. That is downwards. Hari-śauri: Does that Pitṛ, does that refer to the original progenitors? Pradyumna: No, forefathers. Prabhupāda: Latest development they are finding water in Mars? Parivrājakācārya: It is very difficult for them because they are using their eyes and other instruments. They have found places where there were rivers, and they are finding ice, other things. So, I don't know the latest about it. It is obvious to them there is life, different kinds of life. Hari-śauri: The way of testing for life... Prabhupāda: Why you are spoiling your nails? It may come to a boil and then you'll understand. It is very dangerous habit. If there is little (indistinct) then it will become a boil. *Pradyumna: Jñānagamya said that on Mars they found something like a crater with a house. Looked like a... Or a bombed*-out thing. This Jñānagamya was working with a, he works with some information service, U.S. Information Service. So he was in charge of designing something here for Fourth of July. Some program. So he got this information from this U.S. Information Service which generally..., sometimes it isn't made public. It's just in their U.S. service. They'd seen some kind of a crater with... Parivrājakācārya: Roads in it as well. Pradyumna: Yes, something with roads in it or something. Hari-śauri: The way they test for life is they take some soil and mix certain things with it, and then they wait and see if there is some life development from that. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Hari-śauri: Yes. They mix ammonia and... Prabhupāda: Chemical theory. Why do they not in the end mix something and see if life is coming? They are all rascals, speaking one after another, rascals. Hari-śauri: That's their whole thing, that if... Prabhupāda: If by mixing something they can bring life, why not in the egg? Hari-śauri: Yes, they can't even do it here. Prabhupāda: Simply for... But you rascals you cannot understand how they are speaking rascaldom. Hari-śauri: No, I can see now. I've been with you so long I can understand now. Parivrājakācārya: They have sent this one ship to Mars at a cost of one billion dollars. They are making these tests. Hari-śauri: Now there's a second one going around as well. That's Viking 1 that's on there now, and they have another one, Viking 2, that's designed to orbit. Pradyumna: Vikings were names of pirates. Viking means pirates. Pirate's a thief. Vikings, they used to be thieves. They named their spaceship Viking. (laughs) Prabhupāda: [break]...the idea going to the other planet? Colonization or what? Pradyumna: One thing, they say, is security, that American and Russia are fighting. So it was a race to get to the moon because they think that from other planets they can control conditions on the earth. From another planet they can control weather or they can control different things. Prabhupāda: Just see how bogus. Pradyumna: That is one thing they say, we must get to the moon first, for security. Prabhupāda: That is now failure. Now they'll do it from Mars. Hari-śauri: Not so much from there for security, it's just... Parivrājakācārya: Their pride, one country, just like children playing, one can say "I can fly higher than you," and so "We can go to the moon before you can." For no reason than just to show they can do it. Hari-śauri: It's an excuse to spend money. It's for fun. Prabhupāda: They cannot settle up their misunderstanding here. By going to the moon planet, they'll do it. Hari-śauri: That's one thing that they said they were going to do, actually. They had some Russian astronauts and some American astronauts, and they had them meet in space, and then they joined their spaceships together and then they had a meal together and did some experiments, and then they left again. So that was very much acclaimed as bringing the two nations closer together. Prabhupāda: We are afraid of these two classes of rascals. "Afraid of" means we don't want their association. It is very dangerous. Pradyumna: You said in the *Bhāgavatam* just that, that we are afraid of the materialistic men. Prabhupāda: Yes. Personally I feel, I have several times told. For a devotee to live with nondevotees is so obnoxious and troublesome, it is sometimes mentioned, better to remain within a cage surrounded by fire, and still, don't remain with nondevotees. You prefer to live within a cage surrounded by fire. That living is preferable than to live with this nondevotee class. Hari-śauri: A lot of the devotees had that experience living with their parents before they joined the movement. It was so hellish they had to get out. Then they, some way or other, met... Prabhupāda: *Bhakta*-sane bās: , that is the essential part of progressing. Dayānanda's daughter came today, in my lavatory. Hari-śauri: When you were in? Prabhupāda: Yes, I was going... [break] Generally, this baḍā are made with paṭola(?) leaves, paṭola leaves mashed and mixed with this dahi. Hari-śauri: Is that just as healthy as nim leaves? Paṭola leaves? Just the same. Prabhupāda: It is better. [break] ...the influence of the moon planet, the vegetation grows. Do they accept, the modern botanists, influence of moon planet? Parivrājakācārya: All the farmers, they... Prabhupāda: They do believe? Parivrājakācārya: They believe that. They plant certain seeds according to the moon. *Pradyumna: Even in the West they only plant certain things on the waxing moon, not on the waning moon. On śukla*-pakṣa. Prabhupāda: And moon is vacant. By the influence of moon, other vegetation growing, and it cannot grow itself. Hari-śauri: They admit that the moon rays have some kind of potency. They know that. Prabhupāda: No, it is stated in the *Bhāgavatam*. Pradyumna: In the Jyotiṣa it has, it controls liquids. And I think even in hospitals here, near Pūrṇimā, where some of the times they don't like to do the operations because there will be more..., the blood will run more. Something, they have some, somebody told me. The tides are also going according to the moon. The rivers are running according to the moon. In the Ganges, one time we went... Prabhupāda: The ebb tide, low tide, according to the moon. Pradyumna: One day the Ganges was very peaceful, and then we went again and it was rushing. If you went in you would just be carried away. (long pause) Prabhupāda: You can do it here. Hari-śauri: You don't want to go outside today? Prabhupāda: Outside is bright. (end) *Evening Darçan-*-August 10, 1976, Tehran Atreya Ṛṣi: ...about Gandhi. Prabhupāda: This Indira Gandhi? Atreya Ṛṣi: No, Mahatma Gandhi. When I was in America three months ago, this was in a magazine, a new study. And it was very interesting because it showed that how subconsciously this man was very much, very much affected by sex, influenced. After I read it, I understood your comments a lot better, because it was a very frank study of details of his life and... Prabhupāda: You sit down, I'll show you. *Nava*-yauvana: I should sit in front here. Atreya Ṛṣi: No, you stand and do it. Do it but do it strongly. Or you can do it like this, just comfortable. Comfortable. He was used to getting massage from woman. Prabhupāda: Acchā? Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, this is known. He used to have women devotees who... *Prabhupāda: No, it was known to everyone. And that was remarked that his granddaughter, I mean granddaughter*-in-law, he was always accompanied, resting his head on their shoulder, he was walking. That was remarked by... Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, but they were not his granddaughter, his relative, and it was the wife of a relative. And he believed in honesty. Prabhupāda: He was very sexually inclined. That is written by him. While his father was dying, he was engaged in sex with his wife. Atreya Ṛṣi: Exactly. That is right. And therefore he felt very guilty toward sex. He was artificially depressing it. Therefore this article was pointing out that in his old age he was getting his satisfaction in a perverted way. Prabhupāda: By touching their bodies. Atreya Ṛṣi: That is right, and at night he would sleep with them in the same bed. Prabhupāda: Acchā? Atreya Ṛṣi: He would get shivers. He would get shivers, and as a result of the shiver he would be covered with this woman. And her husband would object. Her husband would say, "Gandhiji, why do you have to do this? You know?" He would say, "You can see that I have no sexual inclination. This I want to prove that I have no sexual inclination." Prabhupāda: To show transcendental. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, but he was cheating himself. He was sincere, but he was completely misguided, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it seems from that article. Prabhupāda: Harāv abhakta. Our formula is harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad guṇāḥ. If one is not devotee, he has no good qualities. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, and he suffered all his life. He wanted good qualification, but he was concocting. He was taking some from śāstra and he was concocting some. Because he did not understand the śāstra properly, he rejected some of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: Because he did not have the blessing of Lord Caitanya, he did not understand it, so he rejected some of it, and as a result he was concocting. When he went to Africa, to South Africa, he started the movement there, this nonviolence... Prabhupāda: There it was failure. Atreya Ṛṣi: It was a failure. Prabhupāda: Twenty years he tried, it was failure. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. It was actually a very frank article, and after I read it... Prabhupāda: Who wrote it? *Atreya Ṛṣi: Somebody by the name of Mehta. He was obviously a very great scholar, because this magazine is very first*-class magazine. It's not a cheap magazine, and it was written very nicely. Somebody by the name of Mehta. He's a Dr. Mehta. In the New Yorker magazine, New Yorker. *Prabhupāda: He has written one book, My Experiment With Truth, that truth is truth, but it is very (indistinct) thing. That means he did not know what is truth. (long pause*-child says "haribol") He says "Haribol"? Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Child: Haribol! Haribol! Haribol! Haribol! Prabhupāda: Haribol! Haribol! Haribol! (devotees chant japa) Child: Haribol! (child makes sounds for some time) Prabhupāda: Let him play. Dayānanda: (to child) Are you chanting? Prabhupāda: Europe begins from Turkey? Atreya Ṛṣi: From here? Prabhupāda: No, Europe. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Europe has small portion in Europe... Turkey has a small portion in Europe and a large portion in Asia Minor. Prabhupāda: And Russia also? Atreya Ṛṣi: Russia is also above Turkey. Parts of it is in Europe, part of it is in Asia. Jñānagamya: Devotees are doing very well in Moscow, Prabhupāda? Is that right? They are distributing books there? Prabhupāda: It is not very good. But they have got some orders. *Nava*-yauvana: So when we preach to people we should first convince them that God is the supreme controller, the supreme proprietor. Then further understanding can come. Prabhupāda: Yes, there is a supreme controller. That you have to admit. You are not independent. Why they foolishly think independent? What is the reason they're foolishly thinking independent? What is their independence? Nobody is independent. So why they are foolishly thinking independent? You first challenge them. They are not independent. Are you independent? So why they foolishly declare independent? Jñānagamya: They are ignorant. *Prabhupāda: So what is the position then? They are in ignorance, and they are leading the society as scientist, philosopher, politician. That is misleading. They cannot go even freely in the so*-called moon planet excursion or Mars. Still, they are declaring independence. What is their independence? Atreya Ṛṣi: Rascal. Nandarāṇī: If someone accepts his dependence on God, then what is the second step? In preaching, so someone has accepted, "Yes, we are dependent on God," but actually they have no knowledge who God is. *Prabhupāda: Give them knowledge from Bhagavad*-gītā. If you accept dependence on God, then you take instruction from God, how you'll be happy. Just like a child. The child knows he's fully dependent on parents. So he's fully obeying the orders of the parents, then he's happy, naturally. The father, mother, knows how to take care of the child and they're happy. And by nature they're dependent on father and mother. So they are happy. Mother says, "My dear child, sit down." He will sit down. By nature. Dayānanda: Some people are sectarian in their idea of God. Prabhupāda: What is sectarian? Every sect the child is dependent of the parents. What do you mean by sectarian? Does it mean the Hindu child does not depend on the parents? The Muslim child depends on the parents? Everyone depends on the parents. Either he may be Hindu child or Muslim child or Christian child, that is the nature of the child. Similarly, you may be Hindu, you may be Muslim, you are dependent on God. This is a fact. What is sectarian? Can the Muslims say that "No, no, we are not dependent on God"? Can the Christians say like that? We have to take the general condition: everyone is dependent on God. Where is the question of sectarian? Now this cloud, it is clouded, everyone is expecting some rain. Does it mean the rain is Hindu rain or Muslim rain or Christian rain? Dependent on cloud. Everyone is expecting rain. It doesn't matter whether he's Hindu, Muslim or Christian. Why they declare independence? Jñānagamya: They say independence means you don't need anything. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Nava*-yauvana: He's trying to define independence, and he said independence means you don't need anything. Atreya Ṛṣi: If you have no needs. Independence means that you have no need for anything else. Prabhupāda: No, even if you have needs, if you can supply need, your needs you can supply yourself, then you can call independent. But that is not the position. You cannot get the supplies independently. Why you are expecting cloud? Because if there is rainfall, there will be vegetation. Then you will be able to grow food. So you are dependent. Independently you cannot create cloud. So where is your independence? Every step, you are dependent. Independently you cannot create cloud. So where is your independence? Every step, you are dependent. Why do you declare independence? What is this foolishness? What is their answer? Hari-śauri: Well, they think they have some independence because they have to make so many decisions about how to live and how to operate society. Prabhupāda: He'll answer for them. Law of gravitation.(?) (talking about child?) What is your independence? Are you independent? Atreya Ṛṣi: There are all sorts of rascals, Śrīla Prabhupāda. One kind of rascal is the mūḍha kind, who like to enjoy. He thinks he is independent. Prabhupāda: That is also dependent. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, but he thinks, "I can eat chicken or eggs or fish." Prabhupāda: That's all right, that is dependent. Wherefrom the chicken comes? Atreya Ṛṣi: From the fields. Prabhupāda: Fields? No, it comes from the chicken. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, from the chicken, yes. Prabhupāda: So therefore he has to depend on other chickens. (laughter) What is his independence? Atreya Ṛṣi: But I can kill them and eat them. Prabhupāda: That means if there is chicken you can kill. If there is supply of chicken, then you can kill. Otherwise, where is the opportunity of killing and eating? Jñānagamya: You cannot kill all the chickens. Prabhupāda: No, even they kill, they are killing, but killing facility will be there if there is chicken. Just like a tiger in the jungle. They are very expert, but they do not get food daily. Because the other animals, they also know, that part of the jungle there is tiger. They avoid going there. So he doesn't get daily food. He kills one animal and keeps it hidden and takes little, little. He cannot... They are always hungry, although they have got good strength, but where is the opportunity? And there is one small animal, he's called feow.(?) As soon as the tiger gets out to find out some prey, this small animal warns, "feow." The other animals will understand the tiger is coming. So despite getting good strength, good jaws, good nails, there is no food. He's dependent. If God supplies him, then he'll get opportunity. Otherwise, these nails and jaws and strength are useless. Atreya Ṛṣi: But if I have good intelligence, I can make many machines and put many eggs in them and have all the supplies of chicken that I want. Prabhupāda: That also I have already explained, you depend on another chicken's egg. You cannot manufacture the egg. That is my challenge, that you manufacture the egg by chemical combination and put into the machine. That you cannot do. Another living chicken must lay down the egg, then you can reclaim. You're dependent. Where is your independence? Everywhere you are dependent. How you declare independence? Where is your independence? Dayānanda: They think that the countries that have the materialistic advancement or scientific advancements, that they are very well situated. Prabhupāda: Well, scientific advancement, all this nonsense you can say. Just like Iran. God has given the oil underneath the ground, you are so proud. But if God would not give you the oil, then you starve in the desert. Then talk of improvement, nonsense. You're dependent on the oil. That is given by God. By God's grace, you have got some stock of oil, and there is good demand of oil. Then you are proud of making advancement. You are depending on the oil. The oil is supplied by God. You're dependent. Where is your independence? When the oil is finished, then your all pride is finished. Where is your independence? Dayānanda: But we do not believe in God and still... Prabhupāda: Do or do not believe in God, but you are not independent, that's a fact. You don't believe or do believe, it doesn't matter. But you are dependent. You are not independent. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, we are dependent on nature. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you cannot say that you are independent. That is the point that we are discussing. You call nature, I call God, it doesn't make any difference. But you are dependent on something else. You can call it nature, but nature is also God's nature. Anyway, accept nature. So, Atreya Ṛṣi: But I am not independent, I am more dependent on my intelligence. Prabhupāda: What intelligence? If dependent, what is the meaning of intelligence? Dayānanda: Yes, I'm depending on my own intelligence to utilize everything for advancement, for my comfort and my strength and food. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything, if there is no everything, then what is the meaning of intelligence? Dayānanda: But I may develop more intelligence to create what I lack. Prabhupāda: That is theory. That is not fact. [break] That is given by nature or God, whatever you say. That is not in your intelligence. Hari-śauri: God may have given us all the basic things, but it's taken man's intelligence to make the... Prabhupāda: That is all right, but if God has given you so many basic things, then you can use your intelligence. Otherwise, your intelligence... There is a story that one man was asked by his friend, "Have you got intelligence?" He began to search out here. So, "What is this?" He said, "Intelligence means when there is money here. Otherwise, I am even though I have got intelligence, useless." You can utilize your intelligence provided you have got the means. Intelligence also you cannot utilize properly if there is no supply. Hari-śauri: Actually, Svarūpa Dāmodara pointed out when we were in Washington that most of these big, big men, they admit that they don't know where their inspiration comes from; it just comes. Just like that Mozart or one of those composers. He just used to write the music, but he had no idea where it was coming from. He did not think it out. *Prabhupāda: And that is answered in the Bhagavad*-gītā: mattaḥ, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. So intelligence comes from God. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca. Atreya Ṛṣi: One of the questions Iranians ask a lot is that if He is giving us intelligence, why doesn't He give us enough intelligence so that we could be God conscious? *Prabhupāda: Yes, He's giving. Read the Bhagavad*-gītā. But you rascals don't accept, what can be done? God is personally coming to give you intelligence, take this intelligence. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham [Bg. 4.7]. "I come when there is no intelligence, when you are all rascals, I come to give you intelligence, but you don't take, what can I do?" That is God's mission, that "These rascals, without properly being guided they'll go to hell. Let Me give them some intelligence." That is Bhagavad-gītā, that is Bhagavad-gītā. Arjuna is kārpaṇya doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ: "I have become confused, so give me intelligence." Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. He's taking intelligence, how to tackle the situation. He was confused. He was to fight as a kṣatriya, but he saw that the persons with whom he has to fight, they are all family members. So what kind of fight is that? Who is fighting with family members? That was his confusion. Suppose we are Kṛṣṇa conscious society. Then if we declare fight amongst ourselves, is that very intelligent? So actually the Kurukṣetra battle was like that. Some intrigue of Dhṛtarāṣṭra that his son will occupy the throne, that was the cause of the fight. So Arjuna thought that "My uncle may be intriguing person, he has brought this disaster, fight amongst the family members, so why shall I do it? Better let them enjoy. They are also family members. Why this unnecessary fight?" He was responsible. He was not unreasonable, very good man, that "After all, they are also our family members, let them enjoy. Why there is unnecessary fight amongst family members?" He was not a coward, but he's good reasonable man, that "We are all brothers. They want to rule over. Let them rule over. Why fight?" Sometimes it is misunderstood, Kṛṣṇa is misunderstood, that Arjuna is such a nice man, he didn't want to fight, and Kṛṣṇa's inducing him "Yes, you must fight." It is puzzling. God is inducing a good man to fight, who does not want to fight. It is really puzzling. Is it not? Arjuna is a good, nice man, that "After all, it is family property. So other brothers, they want to rule it over. Let them do it. I shall better beg only. Why shall I kill them?" It is good proposal. Very nice gentleman's proposal. And Kṛṣṇa said, "No, you must fight." So that Kṛṣṇa's position is very awkward, that He'll induce such a good man to fight. So superficially one can criticize, "How is this? What kind of God you have got, Kṛṣṇa, that He induces a very nice gentleman to fight in the family?" Superficially, it is like that. But they do not know that this is foolishness, to deny the order of Kṛṣṇa. So who can understand this philosophy? Unless one is a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he cannot understand. From superficial angle of vision, Kṛṣṇa is inducing a nice gentleman to fight, and we are worshiping that Kṛṣṇa? So it is very puzzling. "Your God is like that? What kind of God you have got? Inducing gentleman to fight amongst family?" They can criticize. Jñānagamya: We have to say what kind of family he has got. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Superficially, this is the position. But still Arjuna says that "You instruct me." He doesn't give up, he doesn't reject Kṛṣṇa, that "Kṛṣṇa, I am such a gentleman. I do not wish to fight. You are inducing me to fight, I don't want Your guidance." No. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi mām [Bg. 2.7]-"I surrender unto You." And therefore Arjuna is so great. He's not so*-called gentleman; he is devotee. What was your question, why God does not come to instruct us? Who said? You told me. It was your question? Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, why doesn't He give us enough intelligence... Prabhupāda: He's giving intelligence. But if you don't accept, what can be done? He has come Himself, and He's giving intelligence. You take it and be happy. But if you don't take it, what God can do? Hari-śauri: Then your argument that I have no independence, that's not correct. Prabhupāda: No. You have got independence, little independence. Atreya Ṛṣi: You have freedom to choose intelligence or be a rascal. *Prabhupāda: You have got independence to misuse your independence. That independence you have got. You have been given intelligence. Now you have got, because you have got intelligence, little independence, you can misuse that. Just like you are all my secretaries. So I give you some independence. You can misuse it. So that misuse is wrong. Then you'll become unhappy. Kṛṣṇa says that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Says. He doesn't force you*-you must do it. You do it. That means independence. Now it is your choice. You have got independence of misusing it. So independence is a quality inherent in living beings, because he's part and parcel of God. The quality of the father is inherited by the son, even physically. Similarly, you have..., God is fully independent, you have got little touch of independence. Now that independence is properly utilized when you carry out the order of God. That is proper. Ordinarily, every country is independent. Does it mean that he is cent percent independent? No. Then why there is police department? Similarly, we are part and parcel of God. We have got little independence. But if we misuse it, then we shall be punished. So there is no question of independence. Independence, little. That is interdependence, not independence. Why they declare independence? That is their foolishness. Hari-śauri: It's always very relative. Prabhupāda: Not absolute. Absolute independence, God. Even if you have got little independence it is relative, under condition. Nandarāṇī: And the purpose of śāstra is to direct this minute independence so that it is not misused? Prabhupāda: Just like in your state, you are independent citizen, but you must be guided by the laws. If you violate the laws, immediately you will be prisoner. The śāstra is like that, law. You have little independence, you can utilize it fully, under the laws. As soon as you violate, you are immediately put into suffering. Because you are a citizen of an independent country, America, doesn't mean that you can do whatever you like. But you do according to the laws of the country. *Dayānanda: You were talking the other morning on the walk about dharma and dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. Prabhupāda: Dharma means what God says, that is dharma. But you have created your own dharma. You give up that. *Hari-śauri: He's not referring to sanātana*-dharma. *Prabhupāda: Law given by the state, that is law. If you create a law at home, that is not law. Dharma means what is ordained by Kṛṣṇa, God, that is dharma. And other things, that may be temporary. You can create some laws within your family, but that is not generally applicable to others. But when it is given by the government, that is real law. That is applicable to all people. When you go out to the street, you have to abide by the laws of the state, the light. As soon as there is red light, you have to stop. At home you may not make such rules and regulations. But that is within your home, that is not general. Similarly, sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66] means what you have made at your home, concoction, give up all these dharmas. Here is the real dharma, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That is dharma. Everyone has to surrender to Kṛṣṇa or God. So that is real dharma. *Dayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that what it means in the Bhagavad*-gītā when Kṛṣṇa says that we have to go śruti-vipratipannā, we have to go beyond just hearing about these different...? Prabhupāda: Find out that verse. Dayānanda: *Prabhupāda: So ritualistic ceremonies, Vedic ritualistic ceremonies. Everywhere there are some ritualistic ceremony. So when you go above this... Just like Kṛṣṇa says in another place, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo. By performing the Vedic ritualistic ceremony, the ultimate goal is to understand Kṛṣṇa. So if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you may not perform this ritualistic ceremony. Because you have come to the objective. Not before that. That is sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Vedic ritualistic ceremony is that if you perform this yajña, then you go to the heavenly planet and there you'll get so long life, ten thousands of years, you get nice woman, and so on, so on. People are after that, karma-kāṇḍa. So this karma-kāṇḍa is required so long one is unaware of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When one understands this karma-kāṇḍa elevation is not the aim of our life, our real aim of life how to go back home, back to Godhead, then these things are not required. Just like we have no ritualistic ceremony, we have simply devotional service. We have no ritualistic ceremony. There are so many things ritualistic. And we are performing only this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, mahā-mantra. Therefore the smārta brāhmaṇas, they misunderstand. They do not admit that they have become elevated. The Jagannātha temple does not allow. But when one becomes a pure Vaiṣṇava, then tepus tapas te juhuvuḥ sasnur āryā [SB 3.33.7]. He has performed all the ritualistic devotion. There are many statements in the śāstras, that when you come to the devotional platform, you haven't go to perform these ritualistic ceremonies. Because the end of ritualistic ceremony, you have come to the point. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. Kaitava means cheating. Cheating type of dharma is rejected here. This karma-kāṇḍa, by performing some ritualistic ceremony you may go to a heavenly planet, but what benefit you will have? That one has to understand. You can enjoy there materialistic, highest type of materialistic civilization means eating, sleeping, mating. These things you can get, but you have to come back again. Kṣine punye martya-lokaṁ viśanti [Bg. 9.21]. So what benefit there is? No benefit. Just like in British period, some Englishman was made viceroy of India. Then after five years they sent to London, again with his bag, marketing in the street. This has been seen practically. Lord such-and-such, he's traveling in a third-class compartment with a bag for marketing. But so long he was viceroy, oh, so much honor, so much prestige. So where is that prestige now? These ritualistic ceremonies are like that. For more years you become viceroy, and then again fall down. That is your Nixon. What is the position of Nixon now? He is ordinary man. That's all. Harikeśa: He's making a lot of money from his book. Prabhupāda: That is, everyone will read, but he's not in that position of President. Money, there are many merchants that make more money than Nixon. That is not the criterion. That position. So it is like that. So what is Mr. Ali's...? Any question? Ali: Sorry, I can't... Atreya Ṛṣi: Would you be more comfortable inside, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, I am quite all right. If you want to go, I shall go. Atreya Ṛṣi: If we have more people, if more people come, then we'll go inside. If they come. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda was wondering if you had any questions. Ali: All right. I was thinking about the material platform that you mentioned last night, and I could not figure out how vast this platform is, what does it consist of, how do we define this platform. Is nature materialism? I mean, there are many things which are obvious, such as money, greed, etc. But how about nature, love? *Prabhupāda: We have got three platforms, generally. Material platform divided into two*-gross and subtle, and there is spiritual platform. The body is material platform, divided into two, gross and subtle. And then if you are fortunate enough to come to the spiritual platform, then your life is successful. So the karmīs generally... Just like we see in the city, they are all busy, working very hard. They are on the gross material platform. And then next class, just like scientist, poet, philosopher, they are in the subtle platform. And above them, there are persons who are simply interested in spiritual understanding. They are on the spiritual platform. So according to the platform, there are thoughts and activities also. Your question is what is about these so many things. So first of all you have to understand in which platform he is situated. Then his activities are ascertained. If you are in the material platform, doing some business, making some profit, and if you bring there question-"What is this, use of material profit, this body is temporary, why I am..."-then your material activities will be diminished.(?) So we have to understand first of all what is our actual objective. And then if we stand in that platform, then our life is successful. Ali: Does this mean that a person should turn his attention from the world, from his surrounding? Prabhupāda: That you cannot do. Just like we are, although we are interested fully in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it doesn't mean that we do not live in a house, we do not eat, we do not use motorcar, we do not use typewriter, dictaphone. We are using everything. But the purpose is different. We are traveling and paying heavily to the air companies. Whenever I travel, at least five, six men go with me, and one round trip world travel means sixteen thousand dollars or sixteen hundred dollars? Atreya Ṛṣi: Sixteen thousand. About five, six people, one round trip is about twelve thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: So twelve thousand dollars means about more than one lakh of rupees. So we are spending that, but not for any other purpose than for Kṛṣṇa's service. Anywhere we speak we are talking only Kṛṣṇa, trying to push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our business. So the platform is different, eh? Externally, one can see, they are also spending so much money for traveling, they are living in a nice house and they have some nice car. But the consciousness is different. Another example in this connection, that I am sitting on this chair and there is a bug also. He is also sitting on this chair. But that does not mean the bug and myself equal. The bug's business is different, my business is different. But superficially, if one sees that the bug and Swamiji's on the same chair, therefore they're all equal? That is not the fact. Similarly, we may be using all these material things, but we have no material business. We have simply spiritual business. Ali: It is living in the material world without become attached to it. Prabhupāda: No, we have no attachment. We can sit down, in this nice building, we can sit down anywhere. We are not attached to this building; we are attached to push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our business. And unconditionally we can push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Ahaituky apratihatā. It is not that if we don't get a nice building as Atreya Ṛṣi has supplied, then we cannot push on. No. That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like I began this movement underneath a tree in New York, Tompkinson Square, what is that? Devotees: Tompkins Square Park. *Prabhupāda: I used to sit down there. There was no mṛdaṅga. A small dundubi. And I was chanting three hours*-Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. And people used to come. *Nava*-yauvana: In a very bad neighborhood. Very low-class neighborhood. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Low*-class, high-class, we don't mind. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That 26 Second Avenue also not very good neighborhood. Jñānagamya: It's the worst place in the country. (laughter) Prabhupāda: But I did not know. Mukunda suggested this is good place, all right, live here. And actually happened to be good place. Gradually, all my disciples came. So I had no disturbance. I was living in the Bowery Street, and on my door these bums were lying with urine and wine bottles and everything. Still, they were so respectful. When I'll come, "Yes, you can enter. Please." (laughter) I had no quarrel with them. They were very kind. They welcomed me, they opened the door, "Please go." They also knew that "He's a harmless..." So, platform, if you remain on the spiritual platform, this material condition cannot hamper you. Ahaituky apratihatā. Then yenātmā suprasīdati, in that condition you can execute. First of all, we have to ascertain on which platform we shall stand. And if you want to stand on the spiritual platform, nothing can check it. That is not conditioned. So why not stand directly to the spiritual platform and make you life successful? That is our preaching. People in general, they do not know the importance of the spiritual platform. Therefore they prefer to stay in the material platform. They have no sufficient education. Ali: Why couldn't spirits grow without taking this body? Why couldn't spirits grow in the spiritual world without taking this material body. Prabhupāda: You can go. It is your punishment. The material body... If one thinks in the prison house, "How one can live without prison house?" That is his misconception. Generally, one is expected to live outside the prison. But because that person is in the prison house since a long time, he cannot think that without prison house one can live; that is misconception. He has no idea of spiritual life, therefore he's thinking like that. Real business is how to get out of the prison. But he's thinking just the opposite way, that "If I do not remain in the prison, how can I eat?" A thief is thinking that "I'm living here very comfortably, without stealing. I'm getting food and shelter, and if I go outside I have to steal again." So it is good life? That is due to ignorance. There is very good life without the prison house. That he does not know. He does not know that there is a spiritual world where a spirit soul can live very comfortably, meeting God every day, talking with Him, dancing with Him. That he has no idea. Ali: How can a spirit become so ignorant? Prabhupāda: On account of no education. Therefore we are giving education. Because they are in gross ignorance, they require education. Therefore this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, educational. Atreya Ṛṣi: In the beginning how does the spirit become ignorant, falls into ignorance? Prabhupāda: He's not... Just like the same question, a criminal, if you say, "In the beginning, how he became criminal," is that very intelligent question? What do you think? A prisoner, criminal, is living in the prison house since a long time, and if you raise this question, "In the beginning, how he became a criminal," is that very intelligent question? Atreya Ṛṣi: No, but not everyone is prisoner. Prabhupāda: No, this question. Anyone can become criminal, any moment. There is no question of beginning. At any moment you can begin. You are honest gentleman, very good. You are working in a nice spot. At any time, any moment, you can become a criminal and go to prison house. That is... You are prone to... As soon as you misuse your little independence, you become a criminal. That is the difficulty. You have got some independence. As soon as we misuse that independence, immediately we are criminal, go to prison house. Daivī hy eṣa guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot cheat material nature. Immediately she captures. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare pasate māyā tare japati 'dhare. That beginning is possible at any moment. You haven't got to trace out the history. Event if you are very honest, you can become subjected to these criminal law at any moment. You are prone to that. So there is no use wasting time how it was begun. You are criminal. Now make your treatment that you may not become criminal again. If you go to a doctor, you have got some sickness, and if the doctor inquires, "How it began?" How it began? What business? Now I have got sickness, you treat me. That's all. What is the use of wasting time how it began? Some way or other, it has begun. Now I've come to you, make treatment. That's all. Why should we waste our time to find out the history how it began? That beginning can be possible at any moment. As soon as we misuse our little independence, immediately the beginning is there. A criminal means one who has violated the laws of the state. That is a fact. So when that violation began, so that is not very important thing. You have violated, you are in the prison house. That's all. That is important thing. Ali: Yes, that's right. My question is answered, but my confusion is still... Prabhupāda: What is that confusion? Ali: I'm amazed that... When someone tastes something, a nice fruit, something pleasant, he remembers, appreciates that, even in material world. How could someone see God and come from a source as powerful and lovable as that and then forget? How could he forget so easily and become so badly attached to this materialism? Why is it that we are so far? I know it's in due course to my actions. *Prabhupāda: That tendency is here. Because we are very small fragment of spiritual identity, that tendency is there. The example is given, just like fire and spark of the fire. The fire and the spark, the spark is very small, but it is fire. And the big fire, together they look very beautiful. With the fire, when the sparks come*-sput sput-so many sparks, it looks very beautiful. But the sparks sometimes fall down from the original fire. Then it is no more fire. It is fire, but it's extinguished. The illumination is over. So we are small particles of God. God is big fire; *we are small particles of God. So we are playing with the big fire very nice, but there is chance of falling down. That chance is there. The big fire does not fall. The big fire is always blazing. But the small fire, although it is possessing the same quality of fire, it may fall down. So we are small particle, very, very small, atomic portion God. Therefore we have got the tendency to be separated from the big fire, and then we begin our material body. Just like another crude example, just like a very rich man's son, he's enjoying life. Sometimes he thinks, "Why not independently live? Why dependent of father?" He goes out and he becomes a hippie. There are many examples. He was living very comfortably, rich man's son, but he left the house of his father and became a hippie. There are many practical examples. Why does he do so? I have seen in Allahabad one big lawyer, very famous lawyer, Ferolal Bannerji. He had two sons. One son became a good barrister like him, and another son became a car*-wala, driving a car. The reason was that this son, a car-wala, he fell in love with a low-class woman, and he preferred to remain a car-wala. Hari-śauri: What is that? *Prabhupāda: Low*-class woman. So she was living in a cottage, hut, cottage. So out of love he also preferred that "I shall live with her, and I shall drive a car." So that is independence. He preferred. So that discrimination preference is there always. You can prefer a low-grade life out of your discretion. Nobody can check you. And by cultivation of knowledge, you can become a big man. The two tendencies are there. There is no stereotyped idea. Otherwise, he has no independence. Who was speaking of that owl? There is an animal, owl. He doesn't like to remain in the sunlight. So that is also an animal. He is also eating, sleeping, mating, but he doesn't like the sunlight. What can you do? So God has given him all facility to remain as an owl, in darkness. That is God's kindness. Atreya Ṛṣi: So we can fall as far as we want. *Prabhupāda: Fall or rise also. Why do you say fall? You can rise to the highest platform from the fallen condition. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That you are in a fallen condition, come to the highest platform and talk with God, play with God, dance with God. That is our opportunity. Now it is up to you to take it or not to take it. That is up to you. But our propaganda is this, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. You simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ tyaktvā deham [Bg. 4.9]*-this is our propaganda. We are trying to induce people to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then his life is successful. But if you don't try to understand, that is your business. But we are offering that here is a movement, you try to understand Kṛṣṇa. What is the wrong there? But if you don't like, who can force you? We are going country to country, door to door, town to town. What is our business? We are simply requesting that "You try to understand Kṛṣṇa." And Kṛṣṇa says, "As soon as you understand Me, you come to Me." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. Now it is up to you. If you take theoretically, that "If by understanding Kṛṣṇa I can go to the eternal, blissful spiritual life," why not try it? And if you inquire that, "All right, it is very good proposal. By going back to Kṛṣṇa, everything is solved. Yes, I'll go. So what is the method?" Then if I say, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," where is the difficulty? Why you are so much determined not to do anything to go back to home, back to Godhead? That is your misfortune. If it is so easy, and it is the means of solving all the problems, why not try it? "All right, let me try in this life." Why don't you do it? It is not a very difficult task. If you don't do it, then you are misfortunate. Therefore Caitanya, kono bhāgyavan jīva. This is the process to be adopted by the some fortunate persons. But they do not want to become fortunate. They want to remain unfortunate. That is the difficulty. Ali: So obviously this ignorance follows, even when we leave this body. Prabhupāda: You leave this body, you accept another body. Tathā dehāntara prāptir. Just like you have already accepted. When you were a child, this body was not there. Ali: Does this happen instantly? Prabhupāda: Not instantly. I mean to say you have changed your body. Similarly, after giving up this body, you'll change to another body. That's a fact. Ali: And between those gaps, we are sleeping. Prabhupāda: There is no gap. The nature's law... It is said that just like you are walking, step by step, like this, so when you fix up this step, then you take away this step. Hari-śauri: Example of a caterpillar, how it moves from one leaf to another. Prabhupāda: Similarly, when you by nature's law when it is fixed up, you have to accept this body, then you give up this body, and immediately enter into the womb of the mother to prepare another similar body like the mother. Ali: During this transformation, are we still ignorant? During this transformation from body to body. *Prabhupāda: No, he's not ignorant. This body, next body is achieved according to the consciousness. At the time of, if you are thinking of something to which you are very much attached, then you get that similar body. If you are thinking of your pet dog, then you get the dog's body. And if you are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, God, then you'll get the body like Kṛṣṇa. That will be decided at the time of your death. Because at the time of death you'll be absorbed with thinking which you have done throughout the whole life. Sadā tad*-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ [Bg. 8.6]. Just like the whole day you are working with some business, at night also dreaming that, subtle body. So you have to train up yourself within this life how to think of Kṛṣṇa. Then there is chance of thinking of Kṛṣṇa at the time of death and go back to home. It is not difficult. Very easy. Ali: So the ultimate goal is not to come back. Prabhupāda: No, what is the use of coming here to suffer? Who is happy here? Can you find out anybody who is happy here? Ali: Not that I've seen. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: Not that he has seen. He's not seen anyone. *Prabhupāda: Nobody. Do you think your king, Shah, is also happy? No. His sons, daughter, they are happy? No. He is also anxious how to keep his position, exalted position, he has to makes many plans, satisfy so many ministers, so many. He is also full of anxiety. And a small bird eating some grain here, he's attracted for the grain, but he's looking this way, "Oh, here is a man, here is man, he may not do some harm to me." So everyone is full of anxiety. Nobody can be free from anxiety. That is not possible. Sadā samudvigna dhiyam asad*-grahāt [SB 7.5.5]. Because we have adopted this material life, asad, our mind should always be full of anxiety. Nobody can be free from anxiety. That is not possible. Sadā samudvigna dhiyam asad-grahāt. Because we have accepted this temporary body, we have to be full of anxiety. This is law of nature. And if we act in this life to create another material body, then our all activities are spoiled. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. He did not ask about the constitutional position of himself, he simply engaged himself in dog's place(?). Then whatever activities he has done, it is simply defeat. Next body what he's going to get he does not know. If you become a minister in this life and next life you become a dog, then what is the benefit? Can anyone challenge this? "No, no, I'm not going to become a dog." Nobody can say. You are going to change the body-tatha dehāntara prāptir-now what kind of body you'll get, that will depend on nature, not on yourself. If you go to a tailor's shop, so you have to pay for if you want a better garment. Similarly, what kind of body you will get, that will depend on your work. So in this life you may be a prime minister, but if you have worked like menial dogs and hogs, then you are going to get body of a dog and hog. That is nature's gift. You cannot check it. You have no hand on the administration of the nature. That is not possible. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. If you have infected some disease, you must suffer from that. This is nature's law. You cannot say, "Although I have infected the smallpox disease, I'll not suffer." No, you have to suffer. Or you have to die of that disease. You cannot check it. So they do not know how nature is going. Declaring independence. That is foolishness. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. And people are kept in ignorance. There is no school, no college, no institution to give instructions about this science. This is the position of modern civilization. People are kept in ignorance. They got the chance of human body to understand the value of life, but they are not given education by the father, by the guardian, by the king, by the guru. Nobody is giving. Therefore śāstra says you should not become a guru, you should not become a father, you should not become a king unless you are able to save him from these laws of nature, repetition of birth and death. Then you should not become. It's the duty of the guardians to give education to the dependents about the spiritual knowledge. But who is doing that? We are trying our bit because we are ordered by superior that "You do it." So we are trying as far as possible, that's all. Ali: Is there a time limit for this spiritual growth? Prabhupāda: No, in a moment you can be spiritually enlightened. So why don't you agree? Ali: Why I mean is from the time that you start, has it got deadline or something. Prabhupāda: Well, starting, just like when there is a seed sown, the starting is there. Now it grows a tree and there is fruit, there is flowers. The fruit is green now. When it is yellow mango and ripe, you can take. The beginning is when you sow the seed. Just like child. The father puts the seed within the womb of the mother. The body begins from that moment, grows and grows. When it is fully grown up it comes out and acts and then walks. So beginning is there. You can begin at any moment. But it is spiritual, it does not take so much time. You should remember spiritual. Just like speed, there are different kinds of speed. Mental speed and physical speed. Physical speed, you have got a very good nice airplane. Still, you have to take ten hours to reach London. And mental speed, you can immediately, within a second, go to London. And spiritual speed, still more. Kṛṣṇa says tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma mām eti [Bg. 4.9], as soon as you give up the body you immediately go to Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual speed. Immediately. Not that so many miles, oh, Kṛṣṇaloka is far, far above this material sky, then spiritual sky. No. The spiritual speed is so high that tyaktvā dehaṁ, as soon as you give up this body, immediately. You can compare material speed and mental speed. Although you haven't got spiritual idea, still, we can at least imagine what is that spiritual speed. The mental speed is so rapid that by the speedy airplane I'll have to take four hours, you can reach there in four seconds by mental speed. That is with our experience. Then we can imagine how speedy is spiritual. It is actually known by education. It is a science. It is not sentiment. And everything is there. Ali: How do you classify dreams? Prabhupāda: Dreams is mental, subtle platform. Your gross body is not working, but your subtle mind is working. That's all. It is material. Ali: The master is usually on a totally different level. It is quite obvious, from the actions, the talks, the understanding and the experience. How close does one student usually, how close does he get to the master? How closely does he understand the master? Or he could interrelate himself to the master? Hari-śauri: He's asking how intimate does the connection become between the master and the disciples. Prabhupāda: Simply by association. Ali: But whatever you talk about, it comes from experience. Prabhupāda: It is association. Just like you came yesterday, you have come again. Similarly, if you come again and again, then you become one of them. Association. You understand, then you become one of them. If you remain in touch with the fire, then you become warm, warm, warmer, and then fire. That example I have given you, the iron rod. Put it in the fire, association, it becomes warm, warmer, and one day, iron. After few hours you'll see that the iron rod is red hot. It is no more iron; now it is fire. Association. By association one can become spiritualized. It is very important thing. We are opening so many branches all over the world with this purpose, to give the facility of association. Ali: There are also so many masters now, so many. Prabhupāda: That is your choice. Just like when you go to the market there are so many shops. Now it is your choice from which shop you have to purchase. First of all, you must know what is your need. If you want gold and if you go to the cigarette shop, "Give me gold," then what benefit you'll get? He'll give you a cigarette and he'll cheat you, "Here is gold." Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it possible to sit inside? There are seven, eight people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: You can continue the discussion inside. [break] Prabhupāda: ...a small child, he does not know what is the meaning of bowing down. But he's doing it. This is association. But he's getting benefit. Not that because he does not know, he's not getting benefit. He's getting benefit. (pause) You can put this light on that side, anywhere, or down, keep it down. (speaks in Hindi to guests) Atreya Ṛṣi: Mr. Sharma is a devotee. He's a wonderful person. He's taken to spiritual life and is very serious about it. Mr. Sahani is also very serious, he's... Prabhupāda: No, every Indian is a devotee. This is the privilege of taking birth in India. There is... Naturally he's devotee, and if he takes little education, take advantage of the Vedic instructions, then his life is successful. In the śāstra it is said even the demigods, they desire to take birth in India because this facility is there in India. This facility, the land is so sanctified that anyone who takes the body from this land, he's born sanctified. Now, if he further takes advantage of the Vedic knowledge, then his life becomes successful. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that anyone who has taken birth in India, make his life successful, and then preach this knowledge to the outside world. The exact word, Mrs. Sahani: Excuse me, does that mean that people from other religions may..., it is not possible for them to achieve the highest perfection? Prabhupāda: It's possible. If you take advantage of the highest college, then you become..., there is possibility to becoming highly educated. You cannot become highly educated sitting down in a dark room. That is not possible. Is it possible? You have to associate, take admission in the society where people are actually highly educated. The advantage is there, the possibility is there, but you have to take it. Mrs. Sahani: From their own religion also. Prabhupāda: Why you bring in religion? We are talking of knowledge. Mrs. Sahani: Knowledge is there in all the religions. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Religion is now misunderstood. Religion is described in the dictionary, "a faith." So faith..., your faith may be something, my faith may be something, that is not religion. Religion is described in the Vedic literature, "the law given by God." That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. So, just like law means the order given by the state, similarly, religion means the order given by God. So if you do not know what is God, what is His order, then what is your religion? Do you believe it or not? If you do not know what is God, if you do not know what is His word or what is His order, then where is your religion? If you do not know what is the government and if you do not know what is the government's order, then where is the question of law-abiding? Religion means, according to Vedic description.... Just like Kṛṣṇa said, mām ekām śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is religion. Sarva-dharmān parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "Give up all this nonsense. Surrender unto Me." So what is the objection? Religion is one, surrender to God. So where is the objection? And God says that "You surrender to Me." So where is the objection? Religion cannot be two. Religion is one, surrender to God. If I say, "You are Muslim, you surrender to God, " do you have any objection? If I say to Christian, "You surrender to God," will he have any objection? Therefore religion is one; there cannot be two religions. Why you are bringing other religions? There is no question of other religions. Religion is one. You accept it? Mrs. Sahani: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Nobody should have any objection. And if you do not surrender to God, then what is the meaning of your religion? It is bogus. That is the beginning of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam: dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. Here in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam all this bogus type of religion is rejected. And what is that bogus type of religion? Bogus type means which religion does not know who is God and how to love Him. That's all. Do you agree or not? So religion cannot be two; religion one. God is one, and to offer our submission to Him, that is religion. Simple thing. And God comes personally to demand this. Sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is religion. Now say what is your objection about this religion. Mrs. Sahani: No objection at all. Religion means surrender to God. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is religion. And that is first*-class faith which teaches how to surrender to God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. Mrs. Sahani: This is the highest knowledge. Prabhupāda: That is the highest knowledge. It doesn't matter whether you are Muhammadan, Christian or Hindu or this or that. Whether you know God and you have fully surrendered to Him, then it is perfect. Otherwise, it is simply waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevamalam. If you simply perform the ritualistic ceremonies very strictly, but you have no idea of God, you have no knowledge how to love Him, it is simply waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. *Nava*-yauvana: Forty million pounds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Forty million pounds are being spent in Germany to take care of dog. This is advancement of civilization. Mrs. Sahani: And how to surrender to God, how to do this? *Prabhupāda: Simply surrender to God, immediately. He says sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Mrs. Sahani: For a layman who doesn't know anything. *Prabhupāda: People do not know. Therefore God comes personally to teach you. Why don't you take the teaching? Why don't you take the teaching? Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ [Bg. 18.66], why don't you become fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa? Mrs. Sahani: Yes, we follow, you know. Someone has to create interest first, and then people will take the teaching. *Prabhupāda: That is conditional. But He wants unconditional surrender. That is religion. Of course, if you cannot surrender unconditionally, then you at least practice. That is also instructed. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. At least think of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā. What is the difficulty if you think of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā. What is the difficulty if you think of Kṛṣṇa? What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Mrs. Sahani: You first have to surrender to God. *Prabhupāda: Eh? No difficulty. If you chant Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, where is the difficulty? That is mana*-manā. Apply your mind to Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty? The difficulty is that we'll not do it. That is our determination. We shall do everything, but not this. That is the difficulty. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. Everyone will teach about Bhagavad-gītā, so many things they will speak, but nobody speaks that you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Rather, they will say Kṛṣṇa is fictitious, there was no Kṛṣṇa, there was no... They mislead, that's all. And he becomes a big scholar. The more he deviates you, misguides you, he become a big scholar. This is going on. Is it not? There are so many scholars, politicians, philosophers, they are talking of Bhagavad-gītā. Nobody is talking that Kṛṣṇa, surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Am I right or wrong? They'll say "We have got different meaning of Kṛṣṇa" All the sages, all the saintly persons, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna, when he understood Bhagavad-gītā, he immediately accepted Kṛṣṇa: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. This is understanding of Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava [Bg. 10.14]. "Keśava, whatever You have spoken, I take it altogether as it is." Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye [Bg. 10.14]. All fact. And they are manufacturing some meaning. How they'll understand Kṛṣṇa? This is going on. And our, this movement has become little successful.... People give me such credit, "Swamiji, you have done wonderful." But I do not know what wonderful. I do not know any magic. I simply say that you accept Kṛṣṇa or Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That's all. That is my magic. And they are accepting it. They are accepting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. They do not make any interpretation, that "Kṛṣṇa means this, Kurukṣetra means this, Pāṇḍavas means this." No. We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You have seen our Bhagavad-gītā? That's all. [break] Before this, before this movement I started ten years ago, so many swamis, philosophers came in the Western country. Not a single person became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is our challenge. And now you'll find thousands and thousands. Because, what is secret? "As it is," that's all. No change. Mr. Sahani: But as it is, it is in Sanskrit, and it is very difficult to understand in the... Prabhupāda: Not at all. What is the difficulty? Suppose Ali: What is the meaning of "as it is." *Prabhupāda: "As it is" means Kurukṣetra is Kurukṣetra, dharma*-kṣetra is dharma-kṣetra. That is "as it is." Ali: Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa, Pāṇḍava is Pāṇḍava. That is "as it is." Ali: Kṛṣṇa explains who is. *Prabhupāda: No, first of all you have to understand. So Kṛṣṇa is explained Himself, "I am this." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "There is no more superior authority than Me." We accept it. Why you accept another authority to understand Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. So there is no difficulty as it is. But we create difficulty. If somebody asks me, "Where is your nose?" if I say, "Here is my nose." And if I say, "No here," (laughter) then it is difficulty. If I say directly, "Here is my nose," then there will be no difficulty. But if I want to do like this, then it is difficulty. There is no difficulty. We have created difficulty. That is our folly. Therefore there is no result. That is the present position, that we have created difficulty in understanding Bhagavad*-gītā and we Indians are now practically out of our own culture. Mrs. Sahani: Those who don't understand Kṛṣṇa, it's difficult for them. Prabhupāda: How he will understand? He creates difficulty to understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the supreme authority," and the person who heard from Kṛṣṇa, he says paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramam [Bg. 10.12]. He accepts Kṛṣṇa as the supreme authority, Arjuna. And why we deviate? The speaker says that He is the supreme authority, and the listener, Arjuna, accepts Him. Now why we interpret? What right you have got interpretation? Mrs. Sahani: We interpret it according to our own design. *Prabhupāda: Eh? You cannot, if you have own design, don't touch Bhagavad*-gītā. You make your own design and preach otherwise. Why you take advantage of the Bhagavad-gītā? This is criminal. If you have got a different philosophy, you preach. Everyone has got the right. But why you misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā? When you take advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad-gītā and you speak nonsense, that is not good. That has murdered the whole thing. And practically we see that. Bhagavad-gītā as it is, you try to understand, you get the benefit and you life is successful. Besides that, interpretation when it is required. When things are understood directly, there is no question of interpretation. The law of interpretation is like this: when the things are not distinct, then you can interpret in your own way, I can interpret in my own way, but when the things are distinct, there is no question of interpretation. Mrs. Sahani: If that's so, then we don't understand because we don't want to understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the folly. You don't want to understand. Mrs. Sahani: Because we have so many desire, we don't want to surrender. *Prabhupāda: We want to become bigger than Kṛṣṇa, than Arjuna. This is our folly. But the process is, as recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. You have to understand from the higher authorities. Ali: In choosing a master you mentioned that the choice is yours, but you have to know what you are after. For instance, if you are after... Prabhupāda: Our offer is you surrender to God. Now it is you choice, whether you want to surrender not. That is you business. We are offering everyone that you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God. Kṛṣṇa also says the same thing, "You surrender to Me," and we are asking, "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa." The business is the same, there is no change, as it is. Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender to Me," we say, "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa." There is no difference. As it is. Ali: My question was how could one choose when he himself is ignorant? Prabhupāda: By knowledge. Here is knowledge. You have not surrendered to God, you take the knowledge from God that "You surrender to Me." That is knowledge. Why don't you take it? Where is the question of ignorance? You may be in ignorance, but when the knowledge comes directly, that "You surrender to Me," then you can do it. Just like a man is fallen in a dark well. He's crying, "Save me, save me," and one man drops a rope, "Please catch it, I'll save you." If you don't catch, then whose fault it is? Kṛṣṇa comes directly, paritrāṇāya sādhūnām [Bg. 4.8], and He says, "Do it." If you don't do it, then whose fault it is? It is your fault. You don't catch it. Kṛṣṇa says, "Here is the rope, catch it," then whose fault is it? Mrs. Sahani: Excuse me, once you surrender to God, will you still have to look for an authority to guide you, or Kṛṣṇa helps you to find Him? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is giving direction, but we have no such intelligence. Therefore Kṛṣṇa advises: Mrs. Sahani: But is it possible to understand Kṛṣṇa directly? *Prabhupāda: No. You can if you are intelligent enough. Otherwise, everyone can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He says directly everyone. He's not saying to Arjuna: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. Why don't you do it? Because you cannot understand it. If you understood, you have done it immediately. But you do not understand. Therefore Kṛṣṇa-tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā upadekṣyanti [Bg. 4.34]*-you have to understand through the person who tatva-darśinaḥ, who has seen Kṛṣṇa. Tattva-darśi, not theoretical. You have to approach such person, then he will show you, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." But if you don't follow the instruction in Bhagavad-gītā directly or indirectly.... Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], if you do not do that and because you may not understand Kṛṣṇa.... But Kṛṣṇa also says tad viddhi praṇipātena... You do not go to a seer, then how you'll understand Kṛṣṇa? You do not understand directly or indirectly. Then you are hopeless. Mrs. Sahani: If you don't understand Kṛṣṇa directly... Prabhupāda: Neither indirectly. If you don't understand directly, you should go to a person who understands Kṛṣṇa. But if you don't do either of these things, then how you'll understand Kṛṣṇa? Mrs. Sahani: But how to, because in India there's so many... Prabhupāda: Don' talk of India; at any place. Mrs. Sahani: Any place, yes. But how do we be sure that this person knows Kṛṣṇa? Atreya Ṛṣi: How can she be sure that the spiritual master is bona fide? *Prabhupāda: If when you see that he does not speak anything except Kṛṣṇa, that is tattva*-darśi. If you are expert businessman in certain line, you have no other business than to talk with on that line. Suppose if you are to purchase some gold, then you have to go to the gold market for dealing with gold. Why should we go to the ice market? That is your ignorance. If you want to know Kṛṣṇa, then you have to know from the persons who are dealing with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. They have no other business. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are dealing with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We're writing books, so many books for Kṛṣṇa. We are preaching and going country to country. We simple deal with Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the movement is known as "Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Somebody suggested "Why don't you write 'God consciousness'?" No, if I say "God consciousness," they'll bring so many gods. It is very simple. If we take it seriously, then benefit is there. But if we hesitate, it is our misfortune. Mrs. Sahani: Takes very long. Prabhupāda: Eh? Very easy, provided you want to do it. Mrs. Sahani: But takes long time to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No long time, I say a moment. Kṛṣṇa says sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. You do it. You can do it in a moment, but you'll not do it. That is the difficulty. Mrs. Sahani: Yes, we are doing that. Prabhupāda: You can do it immediately, but unfortunately you'll not do it. What can be done? There is a story, I may narrate it. One poor man was begging on the street, and Lord Śiva and Pārvatī was passing as ordinary man. So Pārvatī requested Lord Śiva that this poor man, he's asking, he's begging, so requested him, "Why don't you give him something?" And Lord Śiva replied, "Even if I give, he'll not be able to enjoy it. He's so unfortunate." "Oh, that we shall see. Why don't you give?" So Lord Śiva, in a watermelon, gave him, say, one thousand dollars. "You take this watermelon." So he thanked him, and after that he thought "What I shall do with this watermelon?" So another man came, "Sir, if you take this watermelon and give me one anna." So he gave one anna and he took it. Because he had no good fortune to take that money within the watermelon. Our fortune is like that. Kṛṣṇa is giving us the final benefit, but we are not taking care of. This is our misfortune. Mr. Sahani: It is knowledge, that we don't have the knowledge, or enlightenment that in that watermelon there is something which is worth, or it is only that we don't want to do it, or we don't want to take the trouble? Prabhupāda: That chance is there. You can take the watermelon and cut it, but before that doing if you give it to somebody else, that is your misfortune. Mr. Sahani: No, fortune is something which we say... Prabhupāda: No, I am talking of misfortune. That the perfect knowledge is being distributed by Kṛṣṇa, but we are so misfortunate we do not take it. That is my fault. Kṛṣṇa... Mr. Sahani: Misfortune is again, is not in the hands of human being. Mr. Sahani: Well, that probably is ignorance. Prabhupāda: THat is misfortune. Ignorance means misfortune. The unfortunate persons are those who are ignorant, uneducated. Therefore you have to take education to become fortunate. And that education is being imparted by Kṛṣṇa, but you don't take it. That is misfortune. If you take education from Kṛṣṇa, you become fortunate. So why don't you take it? Kṛṣṇa has said this very thing. Mr. Sahani: Māyā is also very attached to everybody, it still can be jijñāsur and jñānī, (Hindi). Prabhupāda: No, no. (Hindi) Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Your first business is to surrender. Then māyā will not touch you. Mrs. Sahani: Kṛṣṇa says that not even a leaf moves without His desire, and this present life... Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to take sanction. You have to take sanction because Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. If you request repeatedly, "Kṛṣṇa, I want to steal something," so Kṛṣṇa will say, "No, no, don't do it, it is not good." But... Mrs. Sahani: But bhakti... Prabhupāda: It is not bhakti, it is a common affair. You want to do some... Just like a thief. A thief steals very privately, why? Because Kṛṣṇa says, "Don't do it." But he does still. So Kṛṣṇa says always good things, but you don't care for it. Mr. Sahani: But when, as said, that no leaf moves without the intentions of Kṛṣṇa... *Prabhupāda: Without hearing the good advice of Kṛṣṇa, he does it at his risk. That's all. He'll be arrested, he'll be put into jail. That's all. He'll suffer. But Kṛṣṇa gives him good counsel, "Don't do it." Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. He's situated in every heart, but if you persist to do something, He gives, "All right, do at your risk. What can I do?" You suffer. That independence you have got. Just like State. State does not advise anyone that "You become a criminal." But when he becomes criminal, then put into jail. State says, "Everyone go to the university, be educated," but if you make your choice, go to the prison house, you can make your choice. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says everyone, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. But if you make your choice to go to hell, what can He do? Mrs. Sahani: This means we have the freedom. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you he got little freedom. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, "You do it." He does not force. He can force you. He's all*-powerful. But He does not force. He gives you the chance, "Do it, you'll be happy." If you don't do it, that is your choice. Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. Eh? Find out this verse. Yathecchasi tathā kuru. Kṛṣṇa gives Arjuna the freedom, "Now I have given you all instruction, now make your choice." Yathecchasi tathā kuru. "Whatever you like, you do." What is the difficulty? Could not find? Ask somebody else. Atreya Ṛṣi: Hari-śauri's trying. Prabhupāda: Why don't you ask Pradyumna? Hari-śauri: He's way upstairs... Prabhupāda: But downstairs he cannot come! Hari-śauri: Well, I tried to look it up in the index. *Prabhupāda: Index is not there. It is in the middle, yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. Index you'll find only the beginning. Just after, just before the verse sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Hari-śauri: Oh. Iti te jñānam... Prabhupāda: Ah, iti te jñānam. Hari-śauri: ...ākhyātaṁ guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṇa yathecchasi tathā kuru. *Prabhupāda: "I have given you knowledge, confidential, more confidential, most confidential. Now you consider, you deliberate upon this and do whatever you like." And what Arjuna replied? Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat*-prasādan keśava. Find it. Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: Sthito 'smi gata*-sandehaḥ kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73]. This is understanding. "Now my illusion is gone," naṣṭo mohaḥ. Smṛtir labdhā. "I am in my original consciousness." So what you'll do? Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. "You are asking to me to fight? I shall do it." Everything is explained. Kṛṣṇa gives you freedom, yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. And one who understands Kṛṣṇa, he says, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. That's it. Not by interpretation, or refuse by interpretation. That is not Kṛṣṇa's... Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. This is understanding. Otherwise simply waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. If you like, you can waste your time. And find out this verse, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69], ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68]. Find that verse, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. Pradyumna: What's the first word? Hari-śauri: Jayanam. *Prabhupāda: Read, after sixty*-fourth verse, read all the verses. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: This is decided, that if we present this Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, ya idaṁ param? What is that? Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam [Bg 18.68]? Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: Asaṁśayāh. So he becomes immediately recognized by Kṛṣṇa. If you preach Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, immediately you become recognized. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. So one has to understand it perfectly well and then preach, then his life is perfect. And what Sañjaya says? Yatra yogeśvaro? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Jaya. Pradyumna: "Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality. That is my opinion." Prabhupāda: So understand Kṛṣṇa like Arjuna. Then Kṛṣṇa is there, Arjuna is there, and all victory is there. Mrs. Sahani: Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa. Anyone who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa can become Arjuna? Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa, anyone who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa... *Prabhupāda: He's like Arjuna. He's like Arjuna. What is Arjuna's qualification? He surrendered, and he says kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73]. You become also Arjuna*-like. Mrs. Sahani: And the victory is there. Prabhupāda: Yes, then victory is there. But if one can avoid Kṛṣṇa or kill Kṛṣṇa, then where is victory? Mrs. Sahani: Victory. Prabhupāda: Victory, any man you can say victory. Where there is Kṛṣṇa, there is victory. Mr. Sahani: But we don't want to go and fight like Arjuna, go out and kill people. *Prabhupāda: Why? If Kṛṣṇa orders, you must. Why don't you like? That is your misfortune. What Kṛṣṇa's... Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. That is following. You like or may not like. Arjuna did not like to fight. That's a fact. Therefore whole Bhagavad*-gītā is spoken to him. Arjuna did not like fight. But when he understood Bhagavad-gītā, he said, "Yes," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73]. You cannot give your verdict. What Kṛṣṇa says, you have to do it. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. You like or don't like, that doesn't matter. Just like a child. He likes or not likes, but what the parent says, he has to do. That is his success. If the child says, "Father, I don't like to go to school," will the father agree? "No, you must go to school." And if he agrees, that is his benefit. Our liking, not liking, has no value. What Kṛṣṇa likes, we have to do it. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇanu-śīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], that is bhakti. Bhakti means ānukūlyena kṛṣṇanu-śīlanam. You have to act which is favorable to Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti. You cannot make you choice. What Kṛṣṇa says, you do it. That is bhakti. [break] What is their reason? Mrs. Sahani: Well, they were not even Kṛṣṇa conscious people. Prabhupāda: Who? Mrs. Sahani: Kauravas. Prabhupāda: Kaurava, oh. Yes. No, not that they are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they may be. That's all right. My business is to execute what Kṛṣṇa says. That's all. That is bhakti. Mr. Sharma: When one person surrenders to God, to Lord Kṛṣṇa, so does māyā automatically vāṇīsh? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says... Mr. Sharma: If I say, I pray to God, "O Lord Kṛṣṇa, I surrender unto You." So is..., māyā will not touch me? I will not be affected by this material infection? Prabhupāda: Yes. If you fully surrender, māyā will not touch you. Mr. Sharma: How one surrenders? What is meaning of surrender? *Prabhupāda: Surrender as He says, sarva*-dharmān... You have nothing to do. You have simply to do what Kṛṣṇa says. That is surrender. You cannot reserve anything, that "I do it something for me and something for Kṛṣṇa." That is not surrender. You have nothing to do except what Kṛṣṇa says. That is surrender. Mr. Sharma: If that is surrender, means I now surrender. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, it's not surrender. Mr. Sharma: Only saying is not surrender? Prabhupāda: You have to act, become active. Mr. Sharma: So one who has surrendered, what is his thinking and acting, how he lives in the world? Prabhupāda: He's active only on Kṛṣṇa's business. That's all. He has no other business. Mr. Sharma: So he does no other work. He does only what Kṛṣṇa has said. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sharma: Preaching and this and that. Prabhupāda: Yes, just like we are doing. Kṛṣṇa said, "Surrender unto Me." And what we are preaching? We are preaching, "Sir, you surrender to Kṛṣṇa." So what is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Kṛṣṇa said "Surrender unto Me." And if I go to you "Mr. Sharma, you surrender to Kṛṣṇa." So what is my difficulty? Mr. Sharma: Suppose I want to surrender to God, to Kṛṣṇa. How I will do it? Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all my position, because I am working on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." So if I say that "Sir, you surrender to Kṛṣṇa," so where is my difficulty? Mr. Sharma: You see, yes, I say I surrender to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: You surrender, not surrender, that is you business. But my business is that I am requesting you that you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So where is my difficulty? You surrender, not, that is your business. But my business is to canvass, "Sir, you surrender to Kṛṣṇa." So I am representing. And Kṛṣṇa says, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya*-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. I have to be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. That is my business. So if I do agree, then I become recognized by Kṛṣṇa. You do or not do, that is your business. My only business is to request you. Mr. Sharma: That I should surrender. Prabhupāda: Yes. But if you accept it, it is good for you; you don't accept it, that is your misfortune. But my business is finished. Mr. Sharma: So fortune comes very much into it. *Prabhupāda: Fortune you create. Man is the architect of his own fortune. If you don't accept Kṛṣṇa's advice, then unfortunate. But my business is not difficult. We are simply going door to door and asking, "Sir, you become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa." If he is inquisitive, "How can I become?" "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So where is my difficulty? Haven't got to pay you something. I simply carry the message of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa says na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya [Bg. 18.69]. "He's My most beloved person, who does this." So why shall I give up this simple job and become recognized by Kṛṣṇa? It is very simple thing. That is the advice of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "All of you become guru and deliver these persons where you live." So how can I become guru? I have no education, I have no knowledge. No, no. You haven't got to*-yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "You go and simply instruct him what Kṛṣṇa has said, you become guru." So Kṛṣṇa has said, "Surrender unto Me," I say "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," I become guru. Even though I am a fool number one, I become guru, because I am repeating what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. I don't require any education. Very simple thing. Everyone can become guru if he simply repeats what Kṛṣṇa has said, that's all. Mrs. Sahani: So it seems that to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, the first thing... Prabhupāda: Unless he surrenders, how he can say others to surrender? Unless one has fully surrendered, if he says to others, "You surrender," that has no meaning. He must have surrendered. Then he can say to others, "You surrender." Unless he has surrendered, how he can take up this business, go door to door and say, "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa, you surrender to Kṛṣṇa"? That means he has surrendered. He has no other business. And what I am doing? I am doing the same thing. I have not given any bribe to these Europeans, Americans, or the anyone. No bribe, no show of gold manufacture. I simply say this, "You just become devotee of Kṛṣṇa." That's all. Mrs. Sahani: Chanting Kṛṣṇa's name is very essential. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the easiest way. By chanting Kṛṣṇa, you are associating with Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa is absolute, so Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name, no difference. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's name, Kṛṣṇa's form, Kṛṣṇa's quality, everything, absolute. So chanting of Kṛṣṇa's name means you are associating with Kṛṣṇa. So if you are associating with Kṛṣṇa, then gradually you become Kṛṣṇa*-ite. Mrs. Sahani: Creates the desire to get knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended, paraṁ vijāyate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. Just like if you remain in touch with the fire, certainly you become warm. So if you remain always in touch with Kṛṣṇa, then you become Kṛṣṇized. Very easy. You haven't gone to the forest or Himalaya or meditate. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is recommended in the śāstra: harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. You cannot perform any severe austerities, penance. Wherever you remain, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And you become perfect. If not in one day... But you will become, if you continue chanting. And where is the difficulty? Where is the loss? And if there is some gain, why don't you try it? That is intelligence. I am not losing anything by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. If there is any gain, why not chant? Huh? Why is the argument not to chant? There is no loss, but if there is any profit, why don't you try to take it. Śāstra recommends. Kṛṣṇa recommends, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. Find out this verse. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: This is bhakti. So everything is there. If we don't misinterpret and take as it is, then we'll benefit. That is fortune. If somebody has one lakh of rupees and if he does not utilize it, then he is unfortunate. And if he's fortunate he can utilize it, he can make it millions of dollars. So the knowledge is already there, you haven't go to manufacture or speculate. You take it, you become perfect. We are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we don't manufacture anything. Here is this knowledge, Bhagavad*-gītā, just take it. Already it is there, everything. We haven't got to manufacture something, concoct something. Everything is there. You refer, you get knowledge, and be fortunate. Prasādam? Atreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Cut this fruit and distribute it. Bring one knife. Atreya Ṛṣi: We have prasādam downstairs. Prabhupāda: No, bring it here. Hari-śauri: Do you want to take any... Prabhupāda: I will take little milk. Hari-śauri: Any puffed rice or anything like that? Prabhupāda: You have puffed rice? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: So puffed rice and milk. (Hindi) We are now advertised all over the world, "The beggar's nation." We have got satsampatti, and we are now advertised "beggar's nation." And actually doing that. Mrs. Sahani: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. If you voluntarily become entangled with māyā, that is your business. (Hindi) Kṛṣṇa is light and māyā is darkness. So when there is light, there is no question of darkness. Darkness automatically will go. When there will be sunrise in the morning, you haven't got to endeavor to drive away the darkness of night. It will automatically go. (Hindi) Knowledge is already there. Why should you remain misfortunate? Kṛṣṇa says sukṛtino 'rjuna. Catur*-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna. Sukṛtino means fortunate. So as soon as you begin Kṛṣṇa bhajana, immediately you become fortunate. Sukṛtino 'rjuna. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna. (Hindi) Immediately begin kṛṣṇa-bhajana. Atreya Ṛṣi: It's a kind of peach. It's like peach. Mr. Sharma: There are many other Indians living in town, so can we arrange one day that you come to town and meet all of them at our place or another place if it is possible? Prabhupāda: That will depend on... Atreya Ṛṣi: Can they come here? We can arrange for transportation. Because it's not very easy with the traffic. Prabhupāda: No, if they arrange meeting, we can go. Mr. Sharma: And we can have some bhajana and prasāda. Mrs. Sahani: We can make it on Friday. Atreya Ṛṣi: Friday Śrīla Prabhupāda is traveling. And Thursday at 11:30 you're going to see that building. Prabhupāda: I think within so short time it will (not) be possible for holding a meeting. Atreya Ṛṣi: For a short time? Prabhupāda: No, because there are two days only. On Thursday we have got already engagement. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, we have an engagement for Thursday. Prabhupāda: Then tomorrow only. So I don't think it will be possible. Mr. Sharma: Thursday evening it is not possible? Prabhupāda: No. Atreya Ṛṣi: We're going to travel already into town once Thursday. We got some Persian puffed rice. They make puffed rice. Prabhupāda: I'll take. You first of all give them. Atreya Ṛṣi: We'll go downstairs and have prasādam. Prabhupāda: All right. Thank you very much for your coming. Jaya. (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 10, 1976, Tehran *Nava*-yauvana: Many people, when they see the devotees, they are confused, and they think that the devotees are engaged in some kind of ritualistic activity; the chanting and practices of devotees are ritualistic, and they compare it to their own rituals and they don't see any distinction. So they see it as sectarian. Prabhupāda: What they want? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Some of them are not sincere, so they simply want to find fault, but those who are sincere can be encouraged to... *Harikeśa: They are all wanting material things. Like in Bhagavad*-gītā, what is the verse, traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ? Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna to rise above the scriptures, the flowery words of the Vedas. *Prabhupāda: They are not concerned with the Bhagavad*-gītā. You cannot quote from Bhagavad-gītā to instruct these rascals. You have to talk with them with common sense. Their charge is, what is their charge? That you are engaged in ritualistic ceremonies? *Nava*-yauvana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what they want us to do? If you don't want me to do this, then you must say what you want me to do. Is it not right? Suppose I am chanting. If you don't want me to chant, then what do you want me to do? The next question will be. Jñānagamya: They want us to engage in sense gratification like they are engaged. That is what they want. Prabhupāda: Want..., we want that, if you want me to do like you, then I want you to do like me. If you want me to accept your proposal, why you not accept my proposal? Jñānagamya: Because if I think that sense gratification is better, then I... Prabhupāda: That's all right, you think sense gratification is better, I think sense gratification is bad. Jñānagamya: How can we tell the difference? Prabhupāda: No, there is difference. Why you want me to do like you? Then I shall want you to do like me. Jñānagamya: I say it because I want you to enjoy sense gratification. Prabhupāda: No, I am not going to accept you, because you are not accepting my principles, so why shall I accept your principles? Jñānagamya: But your principle is austere, it's not... Prabhupāda: So that you say. Jñānagamya: That's what they say. Prabhupāda: They say, but we say you are bad that you are enjoying simply sense gratification. Jñānagamya: They say what is wrong? Prabhupāda: No, what is wrong to us. It is your judgement that we are wrong. So my judgement you are wrong. Who will decide who is right? Eh? Ātreya Ṛṣi? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: If you judge me I am wrong, I am judging you are wrong. So if you don't want me to do like this, I also don't want you, then where is the decision? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Actually, these people mentally understand that sense gratification is wrong, but they are so polluted. Prabhupāda: No, for argument's sake. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Mental platform. Prabhupāda: If you want me to do like you, I also want you to do like me. You cannot find fault with me by saying that I am not acting like you, sense gratification. If you are acting in your way, I am acting in my way. Jñānagamya: It's relative. Prabhupāda: But if you want philosophy, the aim of life, the destination of life, then we can talk, what is the destination of life, what is required. If you criticize me, then I can criticize you also. Jñānagamya: Then we must take it to the absolute platform in order to actually have a sincere argument, to make a sincere decision. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no end of such things. Therefore unless one accepts a person guru, there is no need of talking. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Unless one accepts somebody as guru, the instruction will not be fruitful. Just like Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa as guru. So long he was talking as friend, it was not effective. Arjuna therefore decided... Find out that verse, kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is the position. Unless one feels like that and asks somebody, a superior, accepts him as guru, there is no use talking. It will not be useful. This is the position. If the injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12], if anyone is interested to know about the transcendental subject matter, he must approach a guru, and unless one approaches a guru, he cannot understand, and if by force I become guru, he may not be interested. This is the position. But still, for a preacher, he has to do something against all odds. That is preaching. You cannot expect favorable position. Your question was that we go and they say like this, but you cannot expect that wherever you are going you'll find favorable situation to talk. That you must understand. But you have to preach, you have to create favorable situation. That is your duty.(?) You cannot expect. If they are not prepared to take good instruction. Where is that fan? Hari-śauri: He's bringing it. *Prabhupāda: You cannot expect favorable situation. It is not possible. When I came in America, I never expected any favorable situation. I wrote that poetry in disappointment, that "Who will accept this?" That is the position. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, gradually it will become a favorable situation, but don't expect any favorable situation. You have to handle unfavorable situation and make favorable situation to preach. That is preaching. Any business. (to devotee fanning:) Just on the head. Just see, there is flies. So Nityānanda Prabhu, He went to preach to Jagāi*-Mādhāi. There was no favorable situation. They were drunkards. They caused injury on the body of Nityānanda Prabhu. So this is preaching with only unfavorable situation. You cannot expect favorable situation. And still you have to preach. That is preaching. They will speak like madmen, so many things. They are mad, after all. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. They have no sense. All materialistic persons are madmen. Still, by the order of superior, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we have to do this preaching work. Actually, the American boys are fighting against so many unfavorable situations. They are sometimes beaten in the airport, you know that? Still they are preaching; that is preaching, that is preaching. "The unfavorable situation, so let me give it up," that is not preaching. Yes, we must know that there is unfavorable situation, still I have to. That depends on your brain, how to tackle. You cannot expect favorable situation. Jñānagamya: Is it good to publicize these situations, Prabhupāda, that we are encountering so much difficulty? Is it good to publicize that, in a film, say? Prabhupāda: Film? Jñānagamya: In a film can we talk about these things that we... Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't talk of film. You are very much in favor of film. You better stop that idea. Jñānagamya: It is very potent, though, for preaching. No? Prabhupāda: Some of them may be preaching. In North America.(?) What favorable film will do? You can show our activities, that film may be for our advertisement. Otherwise, in which way, by showing film, film, and film. There are so many films. They see, they see. Jñānagamya: Devotees are interested. Prabhupāda: Devotees are devotees. If you want to preach to the public, what impression they'll have? Some of our documentary film, just like we are feeding the poor, or we are working, making such things, that may be favorable. Say we're doing something in America, the Indians may appreciate, or we are doing something in India. That's all right. There is little effect of course, but not very much. Jñānagamya: But if we make a film to go in the movie houses all over the world, the big movie houses, not just for little schools or little groups, not just for the temple. Prabhupāda: What kind of film? Jñānagamya: A film that would show activities of devotees. And have some story... Prabhupāda: But you said they do not like it. Jñānagamya: No, I never said they do not like it. Prabhupāda: You said that sense gratification. How they'll appreciate? Jñānagamya: They will appreciate, it is something new, it is very different, it is very beautiful and attractive. Prabhupāda: Of course, I cannot understand. What is the favorable condition of film? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jñānagamya prabhu is interested in making a very big film. Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter? Ātreya Ṛṣi: The subject matter is devotees in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. How they learn, how they study, how they go on saṅkīrtana. Prabhupāda: They are seeing already. Jñānagamya: They are seeing in real life, but so many people, they do not know of devotees, and films would go to every little town and village, and there would be chanting in the film, and there would be interest in what the devotees are doing. Prabhupāda: But their opinion is not in favor, as you said. Jñānagamya: But the film can change the opinion. Many times... Prabhupāda: That is... How they can change? Jñānagamya: Great books have done this. Uncle Tom's Cabin started a whole war against slavery in the United states. Books and films are very potent. They can make public opinion. Prabhupāda: Books are different thing, we are publishing. Jñānagamya: In America the Negro situation was very bad, and they made many films showing heroic Negroes and now the situation is much better. The people are not so much agitated by seeing Negroes. They think "Oh, now a Negro has some good qualities." Because of these films they have come to appreciate. So like that, if a devotee is a hero they will also appreciate. Prabhupāda: Do they? I don't appreciate. I don't think the Negro question is solved. Jñānagamya: No, it's not, but it is making steps to that end. Prabhupāda: The whites, they do not like the Negroes still. Wherever there are Negroes, in that quarter the whites do not go in. So is it not? They do not go. Although they have been given equal right, but at heart the whites, they do not like it. Is there any improvement? I don't think. Officially, "Yes, yes, you are good, I am good." *Nava*-yauvana: Because people are still on the bodily conception of life, so they are... Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real disease. So long one is situated in the bodily concept of life, he is animal. First of all, you have to educate them. That is the difficulty. Jñānagamya: But we are not Negroes. We are actually devotees and we are very attractive, and we have all good qualities, and people do not have to be afraid to come into our section of town. We will not kill them. That is why they are afraid of the Negroes. So we actually have good things to offer. Prabhupāda: That is by your behavior, not by showing the film. Ātreya Ṛṣi: One of the points, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you're making, if I understand correctly, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is like gold, like diamond. If somebody's sincere, they will come. When they are selling cigarettes or Negroes or cars, they make films. But with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have the books, which are paramparā. And we have ourselves as examples. If we can be paramparā and we can be good examples... Prabhupāda: That is my opinion, that instead of spending so much money for films, if you spend some money for propagation of book distribution... Any advertisement is good, it never goes in vain, but the film advertisement is very expensive. Very, very expensive. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is very true. Very expensive and very much endeavor. Prabhupāda: Advertisement never goes in vain, that's a fact. But if it is too much expensive, it touches our financial position. Hari-śauri: And then there's no certainty that it will be a success anyway. Jñānagamya: There is a method. There is a method... *Prabhupāda: Suppose there is little success, but in comparison to the money expended, that success is little. Just like I, in the beginning I advertised my books in the Times, New York Times. They charged me sixty*-three dollars, a small space. So there was inquiry, not order, three inquiries. Not even order. I have got this experience. For me, at that time, sixty-three dollars were too much. So I did not get any response. That is my practical experience. I got three inquiries, not even order. But the Times, New York Times, they have got millions of customers and millions of readers, but I got three inquiries. Ātreya Ṛṣi: To find those few potential devotees that are in, let us assume, in New York, big city, there were a few potential devotees, and materially speaking, it may be very difficult to find them. But when the devotee is sincere, Kṛṣṇa will give opportunity that those people will be found, even if they are one in that big city. Kṛṣṇa will arrange that they will find a pure devotee if they are sincere. So no material advertising will accomplish the task. Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that it is only for the fortunate persons. But we must present. Only the fortunate will come forward. We cannot expect that everyone will come. That is not possible. Jñānagamya: But you said to make everyone fortunate. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is by your preaching. That we have to do. We are doing that. That I have given the example, Nityānanda Prabhu, He faced rebellion, and by His power converted the Jagāi*-Mādhāi. By chanting. They injured, Jagāi-Mādhāi injured, and Nityānanda Prabhu said, "Never mind you have injured Me, please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not advertisement, that is personal behavior. Jñānagamya: In Dallas where I was there's a town next door, Ft. Worth, there are many rich Baptists, Fort Worth. They have big studio for producing many different films, television shows. Prabhupāda: These Christian people, they have got money, and still the churches are being closed. What is the effect? Jñānagamya: They have no potency to their message. It's not the medium, it's their message. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, by their advertisement, the effect is the church is being closed. Eh? Is it not? Jñānagamya: But there is also a movement in America, in Christianity, but they do not want to go to church. They want to be Christians, but not go to church. Prabhupāda: That means it has no effect. Now talk about something substantial. Yesterday we were talking about the proprietorship of God. So if people are interested to talk like gentlemen, how they can refute the proprietorship of God of everything? Talk on this point. Jñānagamya: They say God has given us everything for our pleasure, that God is not worried about whether He owns it or not, He simply wants to give to us. Prabhupāda: That is your idea, but if I am proprietor of something, I must keep my right. It is not that... Suppose I am proprietor of this house, and there is a nice garden. I allow my friends and relatives or family to use it. But when they misuse it, shall I remain silent? If I am proprietor, when things are being misused, shall I remain silent? When you misuse it and if I chastise you, how you can say that "You have given to us, whatever we like we can do. Why you are protesting?" Can they say like that? You say that God has given us, so we can do, there is no need of God. That is your argument, is it not? What that argument? *Nava*-yauvana: God has given all these things... Prabhupāda: God has given us all these things, but does it mean that if you misuse it and God will see only silently? Does it mean that? *Nava*-yauvana: No. Prabhupāda: Then how you can say that you can do it as you like? God has given us? Jñānagamya: They don't understand how God chastises when they misuse. They don't understand karma. Prabhupāda: That means shameless. They are being chastised at every step, and they don't think it is chastisement. They are shameless fools. *Nava*-yauvana: And also they blame God. They say God is unjust. Then they say God is unjust. Prabhupāda: And when they are chastised, then God is unjust. This is their position. You cannot deny the proprietorship of God. That is not possible. If you misuse it, then you'll be chastised. You'll be chastised. Even in that park, the park is owned by the government. You cannot pluck any flower without the permission. You can use it. You can go there and sit there, enjoy it, but if it is prohibited that nobody can pluck flower, if you do it, then it is criminal. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything belongs to God, so you can utilize it, God's favor, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, according to His instruction. Suppose there are many persons coming in the park. You cannot prohibit anyone to come into the park. As you have entered, "Yes." But you have made laws like that. What is this immigration? Artificial prohibition. Everything is God's property. Anyone can go anywhere. Why you have made this immigration department, "Don't come here"? Jñānagamya: They say it is to protect the people who are here. Prabhupāda: Then why you came here? The Americans, why they went to America and killed the Indians? And now they have become proprietor, "Don't come here." Jñānagamya: They allow some and then they differentiate, they try to see who is going to be... Prabhupāda: That means you are violate the laws of God. Every place is God's place, so you're all God's sons. You can go anywhere. Unless I do something harm, you cannot check me. In the airport, everyone is checked. That means everyone is dishonest. Nowadays everyone is checked. So in the airport, the passengers, at least it is to be supposed they are paying so much fare, they are all respectable gentlemen. But nobody is to be trusted. They are all dishonest. This is your position. Even though you are outwardly respectable gentlemen, the airport authorities accept you as dishonest, to be checked. This is the effect of your education, everyone is dishonest. (lamb crying in background) Why the lamb is crying? Eh? The lamb? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they have lamb. Prabhupāda: So they do not give the lamb to eat something? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They... I don't know, maybe they took the mother away or something. Prabhupāda: No, I hear this sound always somewhere. No, they keep the lambs for killing, eh? But before killing, do they not supply any food? They starve? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They're very cruel. They don't have any human qualification. Prabhupāda: Human qualification there is no, otherwise how they are killing? Killing means they have no human qualification, animal qualification. I want you to eat, huh? You know that Aesop's fable story? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Funny story? Prabhupāda: There was a lake. So one small lamb was drinking water on the other side, and this side another tiger. The tiger challenged that, "Why you are muddying the water." So he said, "Sir, I am here, long away, I am not muddying." So anyway, he picked up some quarrel and killed him. So the idea was to kill him, but he picked up some, find out some fault. So anyone finding out. This man who wants to kill somebody else, he's not man, he's animal. Give the dog a bad name and hang it. That English proverb? You try to discuss on this point, how people can refuse the proprietorship of God. That is a very good point for preaching. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Everything belongs to God. That's a fact. Sleeping? Meditating? Either sleeping or meditating, what is the real fact? Meditating or sleeping? Hari-śauri: I'm not feeling sleepy anyway. Prabhupāda: Meditating. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hari-śauri Prabhu works very hard, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He's a very first*-class servant. Prabhupāda: Yes. (japa) Dayānanda: Prabhupāda, they say that the problem is that, the problem of the world is that humanity should be one, everyone should think of things as belonging to humanity and that religion and different governments have made humanity sectarian and divided up. Prabhupāda: No, no. We are not such kind of religionist. We say that everything belongs to God and everyone is son of God. We don't say like that. Dayānanda: But they say we don't believe in God, we believe in humanity. Prabhupāda: What is the difference? Dayānanda: The difference is that humanity is tangible, it's something we can understand, but God we cannot understand. Prabhupāda: So we are also tangible, but we are more advanced. How you can, wherefrom the humanity came, the next question will be. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Wherefrom the human being came, hm? Do little. Hari-śauri: Just a little? Prabhupāda: Yes, not little, so that the flies may not come. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Stronger, stronger. Dayānanda: But they say we don't care about where humanity came, it's just that we are here and we have to deal practically with this worldly situation. Prabhupāda: What you are doing practically? You are fighting only. Every ten years after you are fighting. What you have done? Dayānanda: The fighting they say comes because humanity is divided into sectarian groups. Prabhupāda: You have done it, you are also one of the members of the... How you can check it? It is your fault. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They want brotherhood amongst men. There is no way... Prabhupāda: But without father. Brotherhood without father. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right, impractical. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? You don't accept father, where is the question of brotherhood? If there is father and we are sons, we are brothers. If there is no father, then where is the question of brotherhood? Hari-śauri: Even the Communists are fighting amongst themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes, unless you accept the father, where is the question of brother? Artificial brotherhood. *Nava*-yauvana: Just look at the United Nations, how they are brothers. Prabhupāda: You think they're united? They are all dogs barking, that's all. I said in the public. Some dogs are brought together and they are barking. That's all. Where is the unity? That is the fact. If you bring some dogs on this quarter and ask them, "Please live peacefully," will they do that? Why they cannot do it? You bring some dogs, neighborhood, and ask them, "Don't bark, live together peacefully." Will they be able to do that? What do you think? Dayānanda: No, it is their nature. *Prabhupāda: So if you keep them dog there cannot be any peace. You make them human being actually. Then there will be peace. So they are keeping them as dogs. So they will go on barking. That's all. All these members of the United Nations, everyone is thinking in the bodily concept, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Chinese." So how there will be unity? There cannot be unity. That is we are proposing. Don't think in the bodily concept of life. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati: [Bg. 18.54] that we are teaching. But they are thinking they have gone to the United Nations but they are keeping themselves as dogs. There cannot be any peace. They must go on barking against one another, that's all. *Nava*-yauvana: They are thinking that they have to protect their so-called interests. Prabhupāda: The dog is also thinking. From three miles he begins to bark, "Why you are coming here? Don't come here. I am protecting my interest." That mentality is there in the dog, so how you are greater than the dog? *Nava*-yauvana: But the devotee is thinking that the proprietor is protecting his interest. Prabhupāda: Anyway, that kind of interest is felt by the dog. It is not very astonishing thing. In that mentality you cannot bring in unity. That is not possible. Dayānanda: But they accept that there is some good quality in humanity, they say that that is inherent in humanity, that we need to worship. Prabhupāda: Yes, that good quality is God consciousness. So unless humanity comes to the position of God consciousness, unless he thinks that everything belongs to God, there is no question of humanity. That is "dognity," doggish mentality. Humanity means that he understands that everything belongs to God, I am servant of God. That is humanity. Otherwise, there is no question of humanity. If you think like dog, where is humanity? Dayānanda: They think that everything belongs to humanity as a group. Prabhupāda: But that is not practical. Everything belongs to the humanity, then why you are making divisions of nations? Dayānanda: That's what they say, that that is the problem. *Prabhupāda: And the problem will continue because you are taking account a section of living entity. You, because you have no idea of dog and other animals, what they are, they are also sons of God. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Find out. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ. Unless you come to this understanding, there is no question of humanity. This is the humanity understanding. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ. Harikeśa: *Prabhupāda: That's all. You are trying to unify the so*-called human beings, but you are keeping the poor animals for cutting their throat. This is your humanity. Because these poor animals cannot protest, so you are strong. And this is your humanity, you cut their throat and eat. But that is not humanity. Humanity is here mentioned: God is the seed-giving father all living entities. That is the fact. That is humanity. They do not know what is meaning by humanity. Here is the explanation, humanity. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. Unless you come to that stage, there is no question of humanity. Artificially, you manufacture something and you think humanity. According to your convenience. "Let us combine together and exploit other living entities for our benefit." That is not humanity. They do not know what is humanity. Here is the explanation. How humanity can be established unless there is the understanding of the supreme father, how there is question of, how this question of brotherhood can come in? Here Kṛṣṇa says ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: [Bg. 14.4] "I am the seed-giving father." So you try to understand this, then humanity. You cannot manufacture some ideas of humanity, imperfect, because you are imperfect. Here is perfect idea. Dayānanda: How can we be convinced that this is perfect or that it's practical? Because both ideas seem to us to be theoretical. This idea of humanity as... *Prabhupāda: Theoretical? How it is theoretical. It is practical. You have no intelligence. Your, you say this is also theoretical. Did you not say? I say it is practical. It is practical. From that verse, if you have got brain, you study, you'll see that it is practical. If you are intelligent. But if you are dull, then you'll not understand. How it is practical? Here Kṛṣṇa says ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā: [Bg. 14.4] "I am the seed-giving father." So do you think it is theoretical? Do you think? Dayānanda: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I do not... Prabhupāda: No, no, for argument's sake. Dayānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Unless there is a seed*-giving father, how it is possible of a child simply by the mother? Is there any practical example? If one girl has given birth to a child, do you think the child is born without father? Eh? Is it possible? Dayānanda: No. *Prabhupāda: Therefore when Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the seed*-giving father," what is the wrong there? No living entity can take birth without being seed-given by the father. Everywhere you see that without seed giving father how a child can take birth? Dayānanda: How can we accept that situation, that...? Perhaps the creation is a special circumstance? Prabhupāda: No special. Perhaps, this is impractical. Why do you say "perhaps"? That is nonsense. As soon as you say "perhaps," then you are rascal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You'll have to show a practical example. *Prabhupāda: Yes, when you talking of practical things and you bring argument, "perhaps," then you are rascal, immediately. Give practical example, no "perhaps," "maybe," no. That argument will not do. These rascals are giving that argument, "perhaps," "maybe." That is not argument. Be practical when you talk of practical things. Practically you do not see that without father there is any child born, no. Either in the animals or in the human beings, or in the birds, everywhere. Seed*-giving father is there. Hari-śauri: Freud's idea, Freud admitted that, that we are all like children, but his philosophy was that the children have to grow up and go out and look after themselves. They can't remain dependent on the father forever, so they have to grow up and face the world. Prabhupāda: That is another rascal. Because everyone, every living entity is dependent on the father's arrangement. God is the supreme father. He was a Christian or not, Freud? What he was? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He was mainly Freudian, he believed in himself. Hari-śauri: He had his own philosophy. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He was Christian. Prabhupāda: Christian. So why the Christian go and, go to the father, "Give us our daily bread"? That means that you are dependent on father. How you can say independent? Hari-śauri: But that's the point, that we have to grow up and become dependent on our own work. Prabhupāda: No, the Vedic injunction is eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. God means He's supplying the necessities of all his sons. That is God. And that is practical. You are dependent. The animals, they are dependent on grass. So wherefrom the grass is coming? Why that land is deserted and this land is green place. Can you change it? Why you don't change the desert to be green? So if you think that "I'm living on animal, I don't care for grass," but the animal depending on grass, and the grass is depending on God's mercy. So how you can say you are not dependent on God? You are dependent. But because you are a rascal fraud, you want to cheat and become a Freud, that's all. You are a great fraud, therefore you're talking like that. You are dependent on God in every step. You cannot be independent. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra, find out this verse. Harikeśa: *Prabhupāda: So how we are independent? Did Mr. Freud not die? When prakṛti, nature, kicked on his face, he immediately died. So how he's independent? These rascals have created all troubles. The so*-called rascal philosophers, scientists, politicians, they have created all troubles. He's completely dependent on nature, on the laws of nature, and still he says, "I am independent. I have grown up." What you have grown up? You have grown up as a great fool, that's all. You have not grown up to be intelligent. You have grown up a great rascal, that's all. So refute them in this way, then you'll be preacher. So what is your argument about humanity? Dayānanda: Well, if God is, as you say... Prabhupāda: God is the father. Dayānanda: If God is meant to be propitiated, then why is it that we have so many things for our enjoyment? You say that everything is for God's enjoyment. *Prabhupāda: Yes, God has given you enjoyment, but you cannot enjoy yourself, alone. There are other sons, they will also enjoy. If you interfere with other sons, then you'll be punished. God's son is the lamb, and you let him enjoy, you also enjoy. But if you interfere with his right, then you'll be punished. That is God's law. Sarva*-yoniṣu, God is not only your father, he's father of the lamb also. So if by your brute force you want to kill the poor lamb, then you'll be punished. This is natural. You have got your food, you produce your foodgrain and you eat. Why should you eat another animal? God says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14], you must eat to become strong. But that does not mean you'll eat another brother. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1], whatever He has designated, you eat like that. You are human being, you can produce food. You grow foodstuffs, rice, wheat, fruit, flowers, vegetables. That is allowed. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, you produce anna, why should you kill an animal? And offer it to Kṛṣṇa, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26]. He never says that "You give Me an animal." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. So you produce patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam, and offer to Kṛṣṇa, and then take. Dayānanda: In our experience we have no understanding how this can be practical, because we think that meat is good for our strength. How can we be strong? Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are not human being, you are animal. If you cannot produce your food, uncivilized animals, they cannot produce their food. But you are given the chance of becoming human being, if you cannot produce your food, if you do not know how to cook food, how to offer it, then you are not human being. You are animal. When the uncivilized man in the jungle, they did not know how to produce food, they used to kill animals. So if you want to remain in the same uncivilized status of life, then where you are human being? You have got greater intelligence, you produce your food. Why should you kill animal like the uncivilized jungle men? Your action is just like jungle man, and you are claiming to be civilized man. *Nava*-yauvana: They are thinking that they are the proprietor. Prabhupāda: That is their folly, they are not proprietor. They are not proprietor. That is already discussed. Proprietor is the Supreme Lord; you are not proprietor. That is another point. Falsely you are claiming proprietor. How you are proprietor? Everyone can claim proprietor, that is going on. Everyone is claiming proprietor and they are fighting. That is going on. And if you accept God is proprietor and we are dependent on Him, then there is no fight. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, this īśa, īśāvāsyam verse is perfectly describing, tena tyaktena, you are not proprietor. You accept things what the proprietor has given you, allotted for you. You are not proprietor. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. Do not encroach upon others. Then how you become proprietor? We are falsely claiming proprietorship, we are encroaching upon others' independence. This is our business. How there can be peace? It is not possible. This property is walled, that property is walled. You cannot encroach on the other side of the wall. Then it is criminal, trespassing. The government's duty is to see that nobody's encroaching on others. Similarly, God's duty is that. That everyone is God's son, you don't encroach upon other son's right, then you'll be punished. You have got right to live and the lamb has got right to live. Why should you encroach upon his living right? Because you are strong. That is not humanity. The animal is therefore benefit. Let him live and you take the fur. You can use it for your coat, but why should you kill it? The cow is giving milk like mother, why should you kill it? This is humanity, to kill the mother? So in this way we are encroaching the rights of others, and we are becoming subject to be punished by God. This is going on. You may say there is no God, but God is there, you'll be punished. The outlaw they will say, "We don't care for government." You may say so, but government will take action. You cannot avoid it. This is humanity. Good citizenship means one who knows the laws of the state, that is good citizen. If one does not know the laws of the state, he's a fool. He's not a good citizen. One who knows the law, he keeps right and left, he knows this is the order of the government, cars should be driven on the right side or left side. He is good citizen. One who does not know the law of the state, he's not a good citizen. He's a fool, rascal. What to speak of humanity. Dayānanda: Some people say, so we will even say, "I don't care for your rational arguments." Some people say "I don't care for your..." Prabhupāda: Then you are animal, because animal has no rationality. Then you are animal. Better not to talk with you. What is the use of talking with you? You are animal. You have no rationality. Man is rational animal, this is the definition. You have no rationality, therefore you are animal. What is the use of talking with you? Waste time. If you have no rationality, then you are animal. That is the difficulty. People are kept in the status of animal and they are expected human behavior. How it is possible? It is not possible. So therefore our endeavor is to bring them to the standard of humanity, real humanity. Then there will be peace, prosperity, everything all right. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You don't care for rationality, that means you are animal. Man is rational animal, that is the definition. If you have no rationality... Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ... This is Vedic injunction. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samāna. Anyone who has no religious principles, he's animal. Therefore you'll find in human society, it doesn't matter whether it is Iran or India or Europe, there is some religion. Because without religion they are animals. Animal has no religion. The animal is... Dog is dog. It is not a Christian dog or a Hindu dog. Hindu, Christian comes when they are human being. So a civilized society must be the rationality, religion. Religion is rationality, to accept God. What is religion? Religion means to accept God. Dayānanda: They say that "You may have so many wonderful philosophies, but our desire is just to enjoy life." Prabhupāda: That means animal. That means animal. Animal has no philosophy. *Nava*-yauvana: Also they say that religions are the causes of war. In Lebanon now the Christians are killing the Muslims and the Muslims are killing the Christians in the name of... Prabhupāda: And the Communists are killing capitalists and capitalists are killing Communists. What is that? Is that religion? Then? How you can stop war? Because you are animal, you fight, you can give some name, either on religious ground or this philosophical ground. But because you are animal you will fight. You can give a different name. That is different thing. But because you are dogs, you'll fight. The real religion is why they will fight? Religion means to accept God. So if you are Muslim, I am Hindu, if I accept God, if You accept God, then where is fight? If we accept that God is the proprietor, God is the father, then where is the question of fight? Because we are not religious, therefore fight. Otherwise, if you accept God is the supreme father, if I accept God is the supreme, why fight? We have to go down? *Nava*-yauvana: Everything you say, Prabhupāda, makes sense. Everything you say makes sense. *Prabhupāda: Yes, our preaching should be sensible, then people will accept. After all, they are human being. There is sense, but by force they are covering the sense. So we have to awaken them by handling carefully, that's all. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo gauracānda bole. Who are... Uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpya varan nibodhata. They are sleeping. We have awaken them, that's it. That is preaching. Even the animal*-killing, where it is absolutely necessary... So according to any religious principle, there is God. Just like who was telling me? You were telling me about the lamb killing? The injunction is the mouth(?) should be toward Mecca. Is it like that? *Nava*-yauvana: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So because there is no other way... Suppose in the desert, what they'll do? They must eat something, but still there is sense of God, there is some regulative principle. Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is also principle of sacrifice with very strict regulations. Prabhupāda: So in this way God consciousness must be there. That is civilization. Hari-śauri: You want to go down, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. Hari-śauri: Jaya. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 11, 1976, Tehran Prabhupāda: So in other words, that they are not yet conversant with the things, and still they are claiming to be scientist. They do not know thoroughly how things are happening, and still they are taking the credit of becoming scientist. *Evening Darçana-*-August 11, 1976, Tehran *Prabhupāda: ...the existence of God. There must be. How can you deny existence of God? It is not possible. Now, if you are convinced that there is God, then the next question will be What is that God? Is He a living being or a stone? What is the nature of God or the features of God? Whether He has... So many things we have to study about. But first of all we have to accept there is God. God, what kind of thing is that God, that is called brahma*-jijñāsā. That is the beginning of philosophy. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. What is God, what is His nature, what is His feature, what does He do-these things can be inquired by human beings. A dog cannot inquire. So if a human being is not interested in these things, he's a dog. Do you agree or not? If a human being is not interested to know about God, then he's dog. This is our first charge. Now let the agnostic refute. Hmm? In human life... There are varieties of living entities, so many. The trees are also living entities, but it is standing, it has no other capacity. The birds are there, they're little improved, they're flying, they can move from one tree to another, but they have no capacity to inquire about God. There are so many insects, they are also living entity, but they do not inquire about God. It is only human being, he can inquire. That particular facility is given. Shahrezad: Why... Prabhupāda: Because it is necessary. Shahrezad: No, I mean the difference between human being and the animals. Harikeśa: Why is that? *Prabhupāda: No, the first thing is that we have to accept there is God. Now, to inquire about God, this facility is given to the human being. So you must utilize it. Otherwise you are not human. Your business is, by nature's creation, your business is. The human being... Just like you dress yourself nicely, you comb your hair. That is possible by the human being. An animal may have big hair, but it cannot dress because he has no intelligence. So if you have got intelligence, if you utilize it, then life's profit is there. If you don't utilize it, then you remain lower*-grade animal. So in the human form of life, the preliminary is that he can inquire about God, he can understand about God. So if he does not utilize his life for that purpose, then he is animal. So Aniruddha Prabhu requires spectacle? Or it is... Arundhatī: No, it is just a toy glasses, toy. He does not require. Prabhupāda: You require spectacle, glass? Arundhatī: No. Prabhupāda: No, I am asking him. Do you require? Yes? Arundhatī: Prabhupāda is asking if you need those glasses. Prabhupāda: Yes? All right. So our, this philosophy is to educate the human being to know about God. That's all. We have no other business. We're writing books on this subject matter, distributing them, educating them. We are creating preachers who can educate. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Others are denying the human rights. We are giving the human rights. We are so benevolent. Suppose your father has got some money. You are child, you do not know. But if somebody tries to hide that money or does not give you, utilizes for some other purposes; *another friend is trying to give you your father's money*-who is better friend, hm? Who is better friend? You cannot distinguish who is better friend? Shahrezad: I don't know. Yes, I can, but... Prabhupāda: Nandarāṇī? Nandarāṇī: The man who is giving the father's what? Prabhupāda: Suppose you have got your father's money, you do not know. One friend is trying to hide that money, another friend is trying to give you that money. So who is better friend? Nandarāṇī: The one who is giving or trying to give. Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, a human being has got the right to understand God. So one party is denying, the another party is trying to give you. So who is better friend? Nandarāṇī: The one who is giving you the knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are the best friend of the whole world because we are trying to give him the rightful position. Others are misleading. They are enemies, they are not friend. In the name of friends, they are enemies. Shahrezad: I believe in philosophy that the Creator must exist, but I don't know about the stories and details that I hear from... Prabhupāda: No, that you shall understand. First of all you must accept that there is creator. Then we study what is the nature of that creator. Just like these rascals, they are trying to prove that creation begins from stone, matter. Whether that is fact, whether creation begins from stone or from life, these things are to be studied. Creation they are accepting, but they are trying to prove that creation is from matter. Our proposition is "No, creation is from life." There are two things, life and matter. These are subject matters for further studies. First of all, we must know there is a creator. The atheists, they say there is no creator but there is creation, do they not? There is creation. *Nava*-yauvana: By chance. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, by chance or by arrangement, but there is beginning, creation. Yes, they say "By chance." Their argument is that prakṛti*-puruṣa. Just like young man, young woman meets by chance, and the woman becomes pregnant. So this pregnancy is by chance. That is the argument. Is it not? There was no arrangement, but by chance they met and there is pregnancy. Is not that their argument? What is that chance argument? *Nava*-yauvana: There is no controller. Prabhupāda: No, there is no controller. By chance, they meet. There is no controller that brought them together. By chance they came. Hari-śauri: Things just combine by chance and develop. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no question of controller. That is their theory. Harikeśa: By accident. *Prabhupāda: By accident. Accidentally they met and there is pregnancy and there is a child, production, creation. That is their idea. Or what is other argument? So far I know the atheistic, what is called that philosophy? Now I forget it. What is the philosophy of Devahūti*-putra? Harikeśa: Sāṅkhya? Atheistic sāṅkhya. *Prabhupāda: Sāṅkhya, yes, atheistic sāṅkhya. This is the atheistic sāṅkhya. In Bhagavad*-gītā there is, kim anyat kāma-haitukam. Find out this. In the Sixteenth Chapter, I think. Jagad āhur anīśvaram, kim anyat kāma-haitukam [Bg. 16.8]. What is that verse? Harikeśa: Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te. *Prabhupāda: Ah, asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad āhur anīśvaram, kim anyat kāma*-haitukam. Harikeśa: *Prabhupāda: This is their accident. Accidentally there is sex desire and something is produced. Still, they cannot say causeless. Because here it is said kāma*-haitukam, the lusty desire was there. So therefore the lusty desire is the cause. You cannot say causeless. That is not possible. Aparaspara-sambhūtam, two, man and woman meets, aparaspara-sambhūtam. Para, apara. But kāma-haitukam. So you cannot say causeless. Then you have to search out wherefrom this lusty desire came. That is kāraṇa. Find out one cause after another, another, another. Then you'll find sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. If you go on searching out, you have to find out this cause. Because you are saying kāma-haitukam, the lusty desire is the cause, nothing else. But if you are a philosopher, then you must find out wherefrom the lusty desire comes. Harikeśa: It comes from a certain combination of material ingredients. *Prabhupāda: That's all right, but that means cause after cause you have to find how the combination came. That is called philosophy. Go on searching out, searching out. Then you'll find sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. We say that kāma-haitukam, that desire is there in Kṛṣṇa. And therefore, you are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, that desire has come to you. We see Kṛṣṇa's dealing with gopīs, with Rādhārāṇī, exactly like young man, young woman. The kāma-haitukam is there. It is not fictitious. It has come down, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Kṛṣṇa says... The kāma also, you have to accept it, because Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. "Whatever you have got, that is from Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. You cannot say the kāma is independent. That's not fact. It is coming from Kṛṣṇa. [break] Ahaṁ sarvasya, sarvasya, you'll have take kāma also, everything, everything is coming. As Kṛṣṇa says everything, kāma is also coming from Him. In another place Kṛṣṇa says that mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. It cannot be independent. The kāma-haitukam, the man and woman, lusty desire, that is also coming from Kṛṣṇa. You cannot finish the subject matter simply kāma-haitukam. Wherefrom this kāma came? Kṛṣṇa answers that. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. What is that? Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam [Bg. 15.15]. Kṛṣṇa is situated in both the boy's and the girl's heart. So Kṛṣṇa is giving, "You wanted to enjoy, now here is opportunity, you take it." Then Kṛṣṇa becomes cause. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam. "You wanted, you have got, here is. You wanted a young boy-here is." Mattaḥ smṛtiḥ. Therefore He's sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. Hari-śauri: They say the material universe is causeless. Prabhupāda: Material universe is caused by, that is... Hari-śauri: They say that it is causeless, there's nothing beyond it. Prabhupāda: No, how it can be? Material... Suppose matter. Now this wood is dead matter. Wherefrom it has come? Hari-śauri: Well, the... Prabhupāda: Not "well," first of all, study this. Wherefrom this wood has come? Hari-śauri: From a tree. Prabhupāda: Yes. And wherefrom the tree has come? Hari-śauri: From the ground. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: So the material elements are already there and... *Prabhupāda: Bīja, bīja. Bījāhaṁ sarva*-bhūtānām. You sow the seed, there will come out a tree, and from that tree there will be big trunk and you cut the tree, then you get wood. Hari-śauri: That's all right, that's agreed. Prabhupāda: But that is real, that is intelligence, that wherefrom the tree has come. Harikeśa: But this has been going on eternally. Hari-śauri: But the material elements are there, and they just evolve into different shapes and forms. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but the original creation is there. Harikeśa: No, no, it has eternally been going on. Prabhupāda: Eternally is going on, but the process is here. Eternally this man is born, that does not mean you were not born by your father. You deny your father, eternally born. You must have particular knowledge. Don't talk like that. Eternally, eternally father gives birth, that's a fact. But there must be father. Eternally father is giving birth to a child, that's a fact. Eternally birth is going on, that does not mean denying the father. The father is the cause. Anything law, that is going on eternally, there is no question of... Nature's law is going on eternally. That is a fact. Hari-śauri: But if the material elements are there and they're... Prabhupāda: We are talking of the process. Things are going on eternally, there is no doubt about it. The process is also eternal, but we have to study the process. Hari-śauri: But that's their argument, that the process is just happening by itself, there's no father. They say the process is that the elements are just there. Prabhupāda: And there is no father. And he has no father, the rascal who is talking? He has no father? Immediately beat him with shoes. (laughter) The rascal, you are talking, you have got your father. Beat him with shoes immediately on his mouth. Jñānagamya: They say for a plant, ground is necessary, water is necessary, seed is necessary, air is necessary, so why is it that there is only one cause? Prabhupāda: From the one everything is coming. Jñānagamya: Why isn't it coming from several sources? Instead of one source, why not several sources? Prabhupāda: That, he has no intelligence. Just like government has so many departments. But original is the king. The departments are only facilities for functioning. But the origin is the king, government. Because there are different departments, there is no king. This is rascaldom. They are rascals, simply rascals. There is no solid argument against. Parivrājakācārya: When they say there is no God, sometimes we say, "How do you know?" Prabhupāda: No, we say that there is a creator, and that is God. By experience we see that there is a creator, and God means the supreme creator. That's all. Shahrezad: What do you think about the human being's science? Prabhupāda: Yes, science is correct, as far as it is practical. Science means practical. And, so far I know, those who are students of science, they have to appear for practical examination, is it not? Simply theoretical knowledge is not science. So much percentage of oxygen, so much percentage of hydrogen, mix together, becomes water. That you have to demonstrate in the laboratory, create water by mixing of oxygen, like that. That is science. But if you simply theorize, and when I say that you now practically prove, you say "Wait millions of years," that is nonsense; *that is not science. That is nonsense. The observation and experiment. Simply observing is not science. And observing, this chemical, this chemical is being combined, then it can be... First of all, observation. But when you put into, what is called, experiment, and practically show, then it is... They say that life is generated by combination of chemicals. So now show me by experiment, then it is science. Otherwise it is nonsense. The things are going on like this. They are suggesting that life is combination of chemical, but when you ask them to show it by experiment, "Wait for millions of years." This is not science, this is rascaldom. It is just like postdated check. If I give you check for three hundred years dated back, will you accept? Million dollars, but the date is twenty*-three, not nineteen hundred, twenty hundred, but twenty-three hundred. Will you accept that check? I can say, "By that time I'll get this money and deposit the bank. You take the check." Will you accept it? Harikeśa: Well, it's better to take that check than no check. *Prabhupāda: A foolish rascal will accept. (laughter) You are rascal number one. You can accept that check, we are not going to. He's proved that you are rascal number one. It is better to have a check. It is better to have a post*-check. Just see, these rascals are there. They prefer to be cheated. This is the, going on. Therefore these rascals get drunk. Because there are so many poor drunkards there, they will accept this check and they go on cheating, postdated check. Jñānagamya: The scientists are saying, "We are going to find out." Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is postdated check, that I am explaining. Why don't you understand it? Jñānagamya: But the religionists, they say "We don't know." Prabhupāda: No, we do not say about religion. We are talking of science. It will take three millions of years to understand religion for these rascals. They are now animals. Religion is not so easy thing to be understood by the cats and dogs. Religion is meant for the human being. In the human society there is religion, not in the dog society or the cats and dogs. They do not understand religion means they are cats and dogs, they are not human beings. Human being is that: athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about the nature of God. That is human being. Otherwise cats and dogs. Shahrezad: So why we are so involved in the material world that most of the human being don't have... Prabhupāda: They are being misled by misleaders, that is the difficulty. Shahrezad: Yes, but why, God, why they don't see, we don't see? Prabhupāda: They see they are suffering, but they have no eyes to see. They are being slapped both ways and kicked with shoes, but they have no eyes to see. Going on. So much trouble, so many problems, that you cannot drive even on the street. We wanted to see some house; because the street is so congested, we had to wait three days. And still I am thinking that I am making progress. This is rascal. Shahrezad: Yes, that's right, but... Prabhupāda: Not yes. First of all understand your rascaldom. You have created such a situation that to go to a place two miles away from my place, I have to wait for three days. And we are taking it as progress. This is rascaldom. But what is inconvenient, we are taking it as progress. To go to a place two miles away, it takes ten minutes or, say, twenty minutes. Now we have to wait two days. And we are taking it as progress. This is called māyā. Māyā means what is not. It is not progress, but we are taking as progress. Degrees we are taking as progress. This is called māyā. Hm? What do you say, Nandarāṇī? Nandarāṇī: I think her question is, is this God's plan or our plan? *Prabhupāda: It is not God's plan, it is your plan. Whatever you make, it will cause inconvenience. And if you follow God's plan, you'll make progress. Where is in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said by Kṛṣṇa that you make motorcars like this? He has never said. Hari-śauri: They get a bit confused because God has to... Like that man last night was saying not even a blade of grass can move without God's sanction. So they think because God sanctions... *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is so many times explained. Just like a child wants to do something. The father says, "Don't do it," I have said several times. Reluctantly, "All right, do it." I have given this example of my practical experience in 1925 or '26 when my son was two years old. There was a table fan, "I would like to touch it." And I said, "No, no, don't touch." This is child. So but it's a child. He again tried to touch it. So there was a friend, he said, "Just slow the speed and let him touch." So I did it, slowed the speed and he touched-tung! Then he would not touch. You see. So this sanction was given, "Touch it," reluctantly. Now when he gets experience and I ask him, "Touch again?" "No." So this sanction. All of us who have come to this material world, it is like that. Reluctantly. Therefore God comes again to inform these rascals that "Now you have tried so much, better give up this, come to Me again." Sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Sanction was given, certainly, and he has experience, very bitter, but still he won't... This is obstinacy. Dog's mentality. The father has come personally. Now we have experimented everything-karma, jñāna, yoga, this, that, all nonsense. "Now I say..." It is said most confidential. Sarva-guhyatamam. "Better give up this job. Surrender to Me, come back to Me." So sanction was there, certainly. Without sanction they cannot do it. God created this. That is sanction. You wanted material world to enjoy. "All right, do it, here is material world. Take as much petrol as you like and drive motorcar and create accident, do, go on. But now I am giving you good advice, that give up this business, come back to Me." This is sanction. Reluctant, the same example. I did not like that child to touch the fan, but he would insist. "All right, make an experiment." And when he got the experience, next time, ask him, "Now do it?" "No." This is going on. The sanction, without sanction there is no possibility. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam*-that is mattaḥ, "from Me." But he's insisting, so therefore sanction-"All right, let him experiment." That independence God never touches. So he has got independence. Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. So he is creating problem. Still, Kṛṣṇa coming, that "You have created simply problems. What you have gained? Better give up this all nonsense, come to Me." This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Those who are intelligent, they are taking up. And those who are still remaining rascal, they are going on. That is our choice, if we want to be intelligent or rascal. Practically. What we have gained by this so-called material advancement? They have created problem, different problems. That's all. But still, we think that it is progress. And this is going on. Without God's sanction you cannot do anything, that's a fact. But what kind of sanction it is, that you have to understand. God is creator, God is giving sanction, everything is God. Otherwise how He is God? But He has to do. There is a story like that, that the thief is praying to God, "My Lord, give me the chance I can make some stealing in that house." And the householder also praying to God, "My Lord, please save my house, my things may not be stolen." Now God has to adjust, God has to please the thief and the householder. And both of them are prayers. So God has so intelligence, He can do that. He can give the sanction to the thief and He can give protection to the householder. That is God's position. Because both of them prayers, praying, "Give me the facility." And īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. And He is situated in everyone's heart and there are so many petitions, and He has to deal with them. That is God. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: But sometimes things happen people don't want to happen. *Prabhupāda: That is their business. They want or they don't want, that's all. Two business. Because their mind is not fixed up, they have got two businesses-"don't do it," "do it." That's all. There is no third business. Two things-"do it," "don't do it." That's all. Sometimes accepting-"Do it"*-and again rejecting, "No, no, don't do it." This is material world. "Do it" and "don't do it." And things are becoming implicated. Saṅkalpa-vikalpa. So he has to fix up his mind. "I have done so much 'don't do it' and 'do it.' Now I shall decide to do only what Kṛṣṇa says." Then his life is perfect. "I shall give up this business, 'don't do it' and 'do it.' But I'll simply do what Kṛṣṇa says." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73]. "Yes, now I'll do it. What You say, I'll do it." Then his life is perfect. Otherwise he'll continue, "don't do it," "do it," "don't do it," "do it," that's all. And Kṛṣṇa will give him sanction-"do it" and "don't do it." Unless he comes to the original consciousness, Kṛṣṇa has to give him sanction, "Yes, do it." "Yes, do not do it." What can be done? But He says, "Give up this business, 'don't do it' and 'do it.' Simply do what I say. Then you'll be happy." Unless we agree to that point, we have to continue this material life, life after life, and suffer. Material body means suffering. Either you get human body or animal body or tree body or any body, suffers. *Nandarāṇī: This saṅkalpa*-vikalpa is there as long as we have our independence, though. Even as devotees, that accepting and rejecting? That is there even in devotees. Prabhupāda: A devotee, because a nondevotee has become a devotee, he is practicing how to simply accept Kṛṣṇa's orders. But by his previous habit he's still engaged in "do it" and "don't do it." That is his previous habit. Just like this fan is running. You take out the switch, the current is stopped, but it's still running, at least three, four rounds. So similarly, if you have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your, that current of "do it" or "do not," is stopped. Because you have agreed to do only what Kṛṣṇa says. If you have actually decided like that, then you are free. There is no more current of "do it" or "not do it." But because you were habituated in your past life to this "do it" or "not do it," sometimes it is found. But that is... Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, Hari-śauri: Is there any limit to the number of chances that he has? Prabhupāda: Yes, there is limit. Once, twice, thrice. If you make four times, then it is extricated: "Get out rascal, cheating." Ātreya Ṛṣi: But Śrīla Prabhupāda, aren't there fallen sinful people who are still... *Prabhupāda: Amongst fallen, sinful people, if you want to remain fallen, sinful, then who can help you? It is up to you. Kṛṣṇa says sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. And if you want to remain fallen, "No, I'll do it, go on," you remain. What is objection of Kṛṣṇa? Go on. You are suffering, go on suffering. I give you this suggestion, you do it. If you do it, you become free. But if you want to continue, continue, it is your business. Go on suffering. Why you make Kṛṣṇa responsible? You are responsible for your own activities. *Nava*-yauvana: You say if someone has no shame... Prabhupāda: Yes, shameless. Dukankata,(?) in Bengal it is called. So if you want to continue, then continue. The facility is already given there. The material world is there. You go on, continue. But if you want to stop it, if you are conscious of the material position, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15], then you have to stop it. Kṛṣṇa has given you freedom, yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. Whatever you like, you can do. If you like to suffer, go on suffering. Who can...? It is your business. *Nava*-yauvana: But unless one is getting Kṛṣṇa's instruction, he is forced to go on. *Prabhupāda: Yes, māyā is there. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot do anything without knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is there, māyā is there. They'll take care. Kṛṣṇa's agent māyā will take care of you. You have to be taken care, either by māyā or by Kṛṣṇa. If you agree to be taken care by Kṛṣṇa, then you are happy. And if you don't agree, you will be taken care by māyā. You go on suffering. In either case you are not independent. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. That verse is very important*-yathecchasi tathā kuru. Find out that verse. It is the last part. Yesterday you found. Hari-śauri: Oh, I know which one it is. The one about "Now do as you wish." Prabhupāda: That liberty is always there. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: So it is your business. "Deliberate on all the points I have told you. Now if you like, you surrender unto Me. If you don't like, you do whatever you like." Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. This is God. He doesn't touch on your liberty, little liberty given to you, He doesn't touch. He gives you the right information, right instruction. Now you... Idaṁ te jñānam? Iti te jñānam. Hari-śauri: Iti te jñānam ākhyātam. Prabhupāda: Ākhyātam. Hari-śauri: Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā. Prabhupāda: Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā. Hari-śauri: Vimṛśyaitad. Prabhupāda: Vimṛśya, "Now you think over it." Not that blindly accept. You consider, make your deliberation, and then you do whatever you like. This freedom is given. What is the wrong there? Iti te jñānam ākhyātam, "I've explained to you all kinds of different types of knowledge, and ultimately, guhyatamam, the most confidential knowledge I've spoken to you, that you surrender to Me. Now you deliberate on this point very nicely, and then vimṛśya, then after full consideration, do whatever you like." It's everything up to you. There is no force. "If you want to remain in this material world, remain here, suffer life after life. Otherwise you come to Me." That is your choice. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. *Nava*-yauvana: That deliberation means to study your books. *Prabhupāda: Everyone has got deliberating power. If you go to purchase one two*-cents'-worth lozenges, still you see three qualities are there. It is worth only two cents, but still he sees which one is better, which one is better. That power is there. Hari-śauri: You say here in the purport, "Before surrendering one is free to deliberate on this subject as far as the intelligence goes." *Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got your intelligence. God has given you intelligence. Now you deliberate. But if you... A devotee, without using my intelligence, I surrender. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā [Bg. 7.19]. Immediately you become the greatest mahātmā. If you simply believe in Kṛṣṇa, "What my nonsense intelligence...? What Kṛṣṇa says, I shall do. Bas." Your life is perfect. And if you think still that "I am more intelligent (than) Kṛṣṇa, let me deliberate and consider," then you remain rascal. You cannot be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. He says sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], you take it. That is real intelligence. That is real intelligence. Just like obedient son, my father says to do it. "All right, I shall take it, although it does not appeal to me." That is good son. Natural guardian, father, if son understands "My father or mother, whatever they will say, it is surely for my good. They cannot be cheater." So intelligent son will take "Yes, my father says, I'll do it. That's all. Never mind it does not appeal to me." That is intelligence, real intelligence. "Because I am immature, my father knows my good, he says 'My dear son, do it. It will be nice.' I'll do it." That's all. Without any objection. That is intelligence. That is real intelligence. But the father gives the freedom, "Now you deliberate." But it is my duty, when father says, what is deliberation? I'll accept. That is intelligence. And if you do not do it, then you come to that karma, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. God offers, but the rascal, duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ, narādhamāḥ, will not do it. They'll suffer. Go on, continue to suffer. He'll not do it, all right, go on, suffer. Next life if he becomes dog, the ear is there, but he'll not be able to hear what Kṛṣṇa says: finished. That chance is finished. This is going on. The dog has ear, big ear, bigger than me. But he cannot hear what is Kṛṣṇa saying. That is not possible. But this life I've got this ear, I can hear. If I don't take chance, then how much foolish I am. Next life, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], I'll get next life, next birth. Now it is not necessarily that I'll get the next life also same ear. No. The ear may be different. The eyes may be different. The eyes are there, ears are there, nose is, but it is different. So long we have got these eyes, these ears, this nose, utilize it properly. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya, kṛṣṇa guru nāhi mile bhaja...(?) Every birth you'll get a father, mother. Because without father, mother, there is no question of birth. But not in every birth you'll get Kṛṣṇa and guru. That is in this birth. Birth you can have. But to have Kṛṣṇa and guru, that is this birth. So utilize it properly. Janame janame saba pitā mātā pāya, kṛṣṇa guru nāhi mile bhaja... Very nice. That chance you'll not get. You'll get body, you'll get eyes, you'll get ear, you'll get father, you'll get mother, you'll get food, you'll get sex, you'll get defense, everything you'll get. Tathā dehāntara. But not this chance, kṛṣṇa guru nāhi mile bhaja. You'll not get Kṛṣṇa and guru. This is the difference. How nice verse it is. Everything you'll get, but you'll not get this. How nice it is. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], another body you'll get. Another body you'll get means you will get all bodily facilities. There is no scarcity between this body and that body. But only scarcity is that in other body you'll not get Kṛṣṇa and guru. We have to remember this. Jñānagamya: It is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* that once in every structure of the universe, every living entity gets the opportunity to have guru and Kṛṣṇa and very, very nice situation. He gets that opportunity. *Prabhupāda: That I am speaking, that this is the only chance of Kṛṣṇa, guru, and if he neglects this chance, then tanwan sthito hi ga(?). What is the loss more than that? We are simply calculating loss and gain. Just imagine what is the loss by misusing this human form of body. If you want to spoil this life under the influence of misleaders, you can do it. But if you prefer to take the sense of following leadership of Kṛṣṇa, then our life... Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That comes mām ekam, ekam*-then your life is successful. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: [Bg. 18.66] "I'll give you protection in all respects." So if we don't take this opportunity, then we are cutting our own throat. Do it, you can do it. Who can save you? Jñānagamya: You have said it's like two airplanes. If an airplane is in trouble, no other airplane can help. Prabhupāda: God can help. Other airplane cannot. If God likes, He can save you. Hari-śauri: You were saying that if one is intelligent he can just accept the father's instruction, and he knows it will be good. But most people have such bad experience that every time they've accepted instruction they've just been cheated, that they're a little slow to... Prabhupāda: What is it? No, you said, cheated or...? Hari-śauri: You were saying that by intelligence one can just accept what the father says will be good for him and he'll do it, but most people have such a bad experience in the material world, they get cheated so often... *Prabhupāda: That is his misfortune, if the father is cheating him. So that means he's most unfortunate. Father is not expected to cheat the son, but if he's cheated by the father, then he must accept himself as most unfortunate cheated in the world. Then there is no help. Because he's so unfortunate that he's under the care of a cheater father, then what can be done? Nobody expects that father will cheat. And nowadays it is coming. Mother is cheating, mother is killing, father is cheated. Yes. It is Kali*-yuga. *Dayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it seems as though in the modern scientific idea, so*-called scientific idea, is that everyone should have his own individual intelligence, develop himself. Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa also is allowing you, yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. Deliberate, Kṛṣṇa is giving you. But who is accepting? That you have got your own intelligence. Dayānanda: But I mean rebelliousness. Everyone should... *Prabhupāda: So whatever you like, you can do. Kṛṣṇa says that you have got intelligence. "You consider, I have spoken to you. Now you use your intelligence and do whatever you like." Kṛṣṇa does not deny your intelligence. There is no meaning. You have got your intelligence. That is your... Training, you take Kṛṣṇa's training. If you don't take, then you remain in your own training. Kṛṣṇa is training you, He says sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām [Bg. 18.66], but if you don't take His training, then you remain in your own training. Who objects? Remain a rascal. Who objects? Continue to become a rascal. What can be done? That yathecchasi tathā kuru is already said. You use your intelligence. If you prefer to remain rascal, you remain. Kṛṣṇa does not say that "Don't use your intelligence." What does He say? But if you are actually intelligent, then you'll think that, "Who can be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa? Let me take His advice." That is real intelligence. Why shall I use my tiny intelligence? That is real intelligence. Nandarāṇī: Kṛṣṇa was speaking to Arjuna, and Arjuna had real intelligence, but nowadays if someone tries to consider Kṛṣṇa's instructions and deliberate fully and make some decision, he always makes the wrong decision. Prabhupāda: No, therefore he has to accept spiritual master to guide him. Just like simply by reading books you do not become educated. You go to school and read before the teacher. Then you'll understand. You cannot become a medical man by purchasing books from the market and reading at home. You must go to the medical college. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Not only reading, but you go to the person who is actually realized. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. Everything is there. You cannot understand individually. That is not possible. If you are extraordinarily intelligent, you can do that. That is exception. But ordinarily it is not possible. Therefore the spiritual master is there. He'll guide you. What is that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is watermelon, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You are giving all of them? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, it's from our garden(?). *Prabhupāda: Give me one piece. For any intelligent man, Bhagavad*-gītā is perfect knowledge. There is no doubt about it. But unfortunately most men are rascals. That is the difficulty. Otherwise, there is perfect instruction. There is no doubt about it. How can I deny? God is speaking personally. *Jñānagamya: I met a man on the plane coming here just recently Prabhupāda, and he had translated Bhagavad*-gītā into Parsi, the Persian language, and I invited him to come here, but he is not coming. He is afraid to meet you, I'm sure. And I told him... He was smoking cigarettes and was buying, purchasing liquor on the plane, and I said, "Why are you doing this?" Prabhupāda: Your duty you have done, that's all. Jñānagamya: I said "Why are you doing this? Kṛṣṇa asks for controlled senses, but if you know Kṛṣṇa, then you would have no difficulty, you don't need these things." Prabhupāda: In the beginning if you said, they will not hear. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Little salt? Prabhupāda: Try to give to the people. If they are fortunate, they will take it. Guest: I think you are from the south? Harikeśa: He wants to know if you are from the south. Prabhupāda: I am not from south, I am from Calcutta. West, west of India, no? Calcutta is east. Jñānagamya: They say everything good comes from Bengal. The best poets, the best gurus. Prabhupāda: Not always. (laughter) Devotee: Ramakrishna. *Prabhupāda: Nowadays Naxalites are coming. It is the time, Kali*-yuga. Guest: No, I'm from far south. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Guest: That's right. Jñānagamya: His father was attached to British in India. He traveled in India during his boyhood in South India. Prabhupāda: In my young age I had one Afghani friend, he belonged to the royal family. What is the king? Some of their brothers were banished in India. Who was the king? So one..., the family were staying in Allahabad. His name was Sen, Sen Aband(?) like that. So he was my friend. He was coming to me and we were talking. Amar Lakhana(?), his brother, he belonged to the royal family. Guest: That's right, that must be before 1936 though. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am talking between 1925-30. So this same friend was coming to me and we were talking. I think at that time Afghanistan was under British influence? No. Guest: No, we had only one war. That was about sixty, seventy years ago, and they entered and they captured Kabul, but the whole brigade was stopped. This was the time Churchill was the only one who escaped troops, and that was the end of it. They never... It was too risky for them. Prabhupāda: This Afghanistan, when they were Hindus, this Kandahar, the King of Kandahar, his daughter was married to the Pāṇḍavas. Gāndhārī. Gāndhārī(?)... Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: Gāndhārī was the daughter of Kandahar king. Kandahar is still there? Guest: Yes, well, there are quite a number of Hindus in Kandahar. Prabhupāda: There are Hindus? Guest: Oh, yes. Most of the business shops are controlled by Hindus. Also in the school, as well, there are lots of teachers, and education is managed by Hindus. But they are for years... [break] ...for hundreds and hundreds of years. You make this tour around the world once a year or twice a year. Prabhupāda: Yes. I've gone round the world fifteen times within ten years. Naturally more than once in a year. And we have got branches all over the world. Guest: I think the temples are increasing, particularly in Germany, England, and I suppose in America as well. *Prabhupāda: Yes, in America we have got forty branches. Our philosophy is simple. We educate people to understand that there is God. This is a godless civilization. So we say that there is God. Try to understand, and love Him, that's all. This is our philosophy. Then you'll be happy. And so long you do not love God, you simply love dog, you'll never be happy. That is our philosophy. You have diverted your loving spirit to the dog. You change it. Instead of loving dog, you love God. Then dog will be loved and everyone will be loved. If you simply love dog, then your love will be simply in dog. But if you love God, then you'll love God and dog also. Just like you are eating. So the eatable is going to the stomach. If you distribute this eatable to the eyes, to the ears, to the nose-there are nine holes*-it will be uselessly spoiled. And if you give this foodstuff to the stomach, the energy will be immediately distributed to the ears, to the eyes, to the nose, to the... Similarly, if you have got a propensity to love, you love God, your love will be distributed everywhere. And if you fix your love to the dog, then it is uselessly spoiled. That is going on. They have manufactured love for country, for this, that, so many things. But without love of God. Therefore the disturbance is going on. However big nationalist you may be, you cannot make happy anyone. That is not possible. Take for example our Mahatma Gandhi. He's recognized nationally, but he was killed by his countrymen. That's a fact. That means he could not make happy anyone. So we have got some loving propensity. If we love... That is our natural position. If we love God, then our love for others will automatically be done. And on account of loving God, our life will be perfect. What do you think of this philosophy? What do you think of this philosophy? Guest: I think it's the supreme philosophy. It is basic philosophy which has been spoken, and unfortunately no practice, but it's a very good thought. It's a very big part and inject it again and revive it. Prabhupāda: Love God. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: Premā pumartho mahān. Love of God is the highest perfection of life. This is our philosophy. (end) *Morning Walk-*-August 11, 1976, Tehran Prabhupāda: ...I.A.S. civil service examination before one man is posted in some responsible office. Similarly, to be recognized by Kṛṣṇa, as He says na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu [Bg. 18.69], one has to pass examination, severe test of examination. All the big, big devotees we see. Nārada Muni, before becoming Nārada Muni, he had to pass through severe examination, test. That chance is there in the human form of life, to pass the examination, test. But they are passing this human life with ordinary animal propensities. They are not trained up to pass the examination and be recognized by God. That civilization is lost, Vedic civilization, to prepare the human beings for passing the test, examination for being recognized by God. Ātreya Ṛṣi: To pass the examination, one must follow a strict, austere life. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa, beginning tapasya, austerity. Brahmacarya, celibacy. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena [SB 6.1.13], controlling the senses, controlling the mind. Tyāgena, by renunciation. Satya-śaucābhyām, by following truthfulness and cleanliness. Yamena niyamena vā, by practicing yoga, yama*-niyama. These are the different items of being qualified. But all these things can be done by one stroke, kevalayā bhaktyā, by engaging oneself in devotion, vāsudeva-parāyaṇāḥ. Ātreya Ṛṣi: In Koran it is described that there is a very dangerous bridge that one has to pass. Prabhupāda: This is described in the *Vedas*, Vaitaraṇī, cross from the material to the spiritual world. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And it is fire in both sides, and it is like a razor edge, it could be very thin. And the saintly persons close their eyes and pass it. Kṛṣṇa makes them pass. *Prabhupāda: Similar description is there, bhavāmbudhir vatsa*-padaṁ paraṁ padaṁ padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām [SB 10.14.58]. Bhavāmbudhiḥ, the great ocean of material nescience, it becomes vatsa-padam, just like the water contained in the hoof impression of a calf. Bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ param. Exactly animal civilization. Animal does not know what is future, what is past, what is going to happen, nothing. The human civilization has become like that. Professor Kotovsky said, "Swamiji, after finishing this body, everything is finished." He's a big professor in Moscow. This is their civilization. What do they explain about the lower animals? Wherefrom they come, the birds, beasts, trees, insects? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Where, in Koran? Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say the modern scientists. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Modern scientists. One theory is the evolutionary process. Prabhupāda: So wherefrom evolution begins? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They don't know how it began. Some say it came from water. How does life begin? Nobody really knows. Hari-śauri: They say there has to be certain combination of gases, ammonia, water, some hydrogen. Prabhupāda: They cannot make this gas and combine? Hari-śauri: This is the way they are testing for life on Mars. This is one of the tests. Prabhupāda: No, why Mars? In their laboratory they can make gas and mix. Hari-śauri: Well they say that they've made amino acids. Prabhupāda: They cannot make? Hari-śauri: They've made that, they say. Prabhupāda: But they cannot produce life. Hari-śauri: They haven't succeeded in having it develop any further than that. Prabhupāda: They have not succeeded in a thing which they proposed as the origin of life. This is going on. Hari-śauri: I remember they showed the experiment on TV on a science program, and they said "Now we've discovered how to make life." And they showed this chamber, and they put these gases in and an electrical spark. Prabhupāda: And there was life? No. Hari-śauri: And they made these amino acids. So they said "We've created life. Now, it won't be long before we can develop..." Prabhupāda: And you have to wait one million years. (japa) Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is it true, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that Kṛṣṇa is testing us every day? We're having tests, opportunities... Prabhupāda: No, just like if you want responsible post, then there is question of test. If you want to become a vagabond, remain vagabond. Where is question of test? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, for devotees. Prabhupāda: Ah, for devotees, there is test. For devotees there is test. We see from the devotee's life, Prahlāda Mahārāja, how much severe test he had to pass through. Bali Mahārāja, Nārada Muni. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And the most advanced the devotee is, the more severe the test is, the more chance. Prabhupāda: No, after you pass the examination, there is no more test. But before coming to the post of recognized devotee, Kṛṣṇa tests very severely. That one has to pass. Hari-śauri: I read once in the Bhāgavatam in one of your purports, you said that māyā is there to test the sincerity of the candidate. Prabhupāda: Yes, we see from the life of Bali Mahārāja, how he was put into difficulty. Even his spiritual master cursed him. [break] ...put into test and still he remains in his determination, then he's passed. That is very natural. And there is a word, "acid test"? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: For ascertaining real gold, the acid test one has to pass to become real gold. *Nava*-yauvana: [break] ...this test depends on one's faith in Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Faith in Kṛṣṇa? What do you mean by faith? Hari-śauri: If you want to pass the test, he says, does that depend on one's faith? Prabhupāda: What does that faith mean? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Conviction. Prabhupāda: What is that conviction? Describe it. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That Kṛṣṇa is the controller. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is controller. You may have faith or no faith, that doesn't matter. Hari-śauri: If one is convinced that Kṛṣṇa will always protect him. *Nava*-yauvana: When he's convinced to abide by the instructions of... Prabhupāda: Faith means that you are meant for giving some service to Kṛṣṇa. You should stick to that service, that path, in spite of all impediments. That is the passing of test. Generally, just like we are meant for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So there may be severe test, but still we shall remain determined. That is wanted. There may be so many impediments, punishment, still you should do that. That is wanted. That is test. Not that as soon as there is some difficulty I give it up. There may be severe test, but still we shall not give it up. We must go on. That is determination. *Nava*-yauvana: Passing the test means executing the order of the spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is spiritual life. One has to take order from the spiritual master and execute it, despite all impediments. That is determination. What are these pictures dancing? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Modern sculpture. Prabhupāda: They are dancing on snake or what? Hari-śauri: Just dancing. Prabhupāda: For collecting few dry leaves, three, four servants are engaged. Hari-śauri: More than that. They have about, they must have about twenty men around here sweeping the path. Prabhupāda: Twenty? Hari-śauri: When we were here the other morning at least a dozen or so walked past, and there were others working elsewhere, and they were all sweeping. Prabhupāda: So there are many servants. What is their general payment? Ātreya Ṛṣi: About eight hundred rupees per month. Prabhupāda: Hundred dollars. What is the average expenditure here? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Depends on how one lives; it is quite expensive. Eight thousand, ten thousand rupees per month. Prabhupāda: For rent? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. Just for food, it is per head, simple devotee food, per person, about five hundred rupees per month. Prabhupāda: Oh. In India... India, two hundred rupees per month. And it has increased very recently. In 1930, we were paying servant twelve to fourteen rupees per month, and they were satisfied. With food, six rupees. And without food, twelve rupees, fourteen. *Nava*-yauvana: That means it cost only six rupees per month for food. *Prabhupāda: Yes. In the hotel also they were charging six rupees. Means third*-class hotel, not first class for cooking dāl, vegetables. Rice was, first-class rice, six rupees per month. Dāl, twelve annas for kg, flour, five annas for two and a half kgs. And from 1942, all of a sudden the price increased, artificially. Milk, two annas per kg. Now three rupees, four rupees. Ghee, first-class ghee, one rupee per kg. First-class ghee. [break] ...paying for the clerks thirty rupees per month. And head clerk, sixty rupees. Officers, hundred to two hundred rupees. High-court judges, four thousand rupees. High-court judges were highly paid. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Iran at that time was even cheaper, much cheaper. Because you had the British in India, you were... Prabhupāda: Yes, when India was native state, they were cheaper. In India, this inflation was caused by Mr. Churchill. During the war he wanted men to join the fighting, so people were not coming. So artificially... Ātreya Ṛṣi: Printed money? Prabhupāda: No, artificially increased the price. So they were obliged to join. Hari-śauri: He'd increase the price and then advertise free food in the army. Prabhupāda: Yes. (passerby makes comment) Hari-śauri: What does he say? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He first said "Please pray for me." But then he's joking. He's saying also that he should take good care of us, we are guests here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: That man should take good care of us, bring us tea. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. They drink too much tea here? *Nava*-yauvana: Yes. Every place you go they offer you tea. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's our Praṇava dāsa, in Vṛndāvana. He, as you remember, he had some difficulties there. Prabhupāda: He creates the difficulty.(?) He came to Vṛndāvana as retired life, but instead of that he wanted to make some personal profit. That is his difficulty. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So, is he, does he have any sincerity? Prabhupāda: No, I don't think. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He has no sincerity. We should not encourage him to come here. Prabhupāda: No, no. He's after sense gratification. He requested you? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: What he'll do? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, I thought that he's a devotee and I should engage him, we should engage him here. But of course, if he's not sincere... Prabhupāda: He's trying to get such opportunities. He's requesting so many, "Take me here, take me there." Ātreya Ṛṣi: So I should not do it because we will have problem. We would be in anxiety here. Prabhupāda: He came to Vṛndāvana for the purpose of devotion, but he had some other motive. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Not give up, would not give up. Prabhupāda: To take advantage for sense gratification. Why he wants to come here? He requested similarly Bhagavān. Hari-śauri: He wanted to go to Detroit. Prabhupāda: Detroit, everyone is trying to take some advantage. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Everybody thinks America is everything. A heavenly planet. Prabhupāda: Yes, for India it is heavenly planet, certainly. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I'm sure there is always a lot of people who gather around American devotees. Prabhupāda: To exploit. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They want money, they want this, they want benefit, some sort of, this I can see. Prabhupāda: What is the price of this bread? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Five rials, it's about half a rupee. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's big, it's good. It is good bread. *Nava*-yauvana: It is subsidized by the government. Prabhupāda: Still half a rupee. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Government pays half on the price, more than half the price. That is why if Iranian poor people, with very little salary, they can survive. They can eat this bread. *Nava*-yauvana: We had asked Praṇava to help arrange for a cook to come here. We'd asked help to arrange for a cook, so we could open a small prasāda restaurant. And he's written back that "I have made arrangements for a cook, and also I would like to come." Ātreya Ṛṣi: We can get someone else. [break] ...strong but dangerous. Prabhupāda: Not dangerous if the both of them become devotee. Ātreya Ṛṣi: If they understand the purpose of life. Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise it is dangerous Ātreya Ṛṣi: They can fool each other. *Prabhupāda: That is generally done. Wife increases the responsibility. Strī*-vistāra. But still one has to maintain wife. A brahmacārī has no responsibility. His only responsibility is to serve Kṛṣṇa. But a gṛhastha has many responsibilities. "There is the children, I have to give them education, see that they're well situated." Ātreya Ṛṣi: A brahmacārī life. A devotee who has not had experience with the responsibility... Prabhupāda: No, no, responsible... He has no, this material responsibility. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But he has responsibility towards Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So he should know about responsibility, he should have experience. Prabhupāda: Real business of human life is to take responsibility of spiritual advancement. So if one remain brahmacārī, he has no disturbance in that responsibility. But if he becomes a gṛhastha, that disturbance is there. You cannot take wholeheartedly the spiritual responsibility. (end) *Evening Darçana-*-August 12, 1976, Tehran *Nava*-yauvana: "First we must reach to your standard, then we can become interested in spiritual life." It's an envious position. On the material platform they are thinking, "You have gotten so much, now you can afford to practice this. We cannot afford such practice." Prabhupāda: Then it is a luxury, it is not necessary. Is it not? *Nava*-yauvana: Yes, that's what they are thinking. After the material luxury, then you have this. *Prabhupāda: But why the Indians, they are not like the Americans? You find in India still millions of people will go to the Kumbhamelā with torn cloth. They are not like Americans, riches. Why they take? Indian is well*-known poverty-stricken. So why almost ninety-nine percent people, they are after Kṛṣṇa consciousness naturally? Still they'll go, when there is Kumbhamelā, so many saintly persons are coming. They will come by lakhs. Have you seen it? You have seen Kumbhamelā? You have seen? That is the proof. Not only Kumbhamelā. In Vṛndāvana, just like in our temple, recently it was jam-packed. Why they are coming to Vṛndāvana? Mostly they are coming from villages. Especially during this time at least twenty thousand, fifty thousand men are coming, daily. Still. We held Hare Kṛṣṇa festivals in Calcutta, Bombay, Madras. As soon as it is advertised, you'll find fifteen thousand, twenty thousand men come. And if you hold for weeks, for weeks they will come. You have seen? They are not like Americans, rich. They are all poverty-stricken. To the general eyes they are poverty-stricken. Kumbhamelā you'll see, Hardwar, in Vṛndāvana. Or even in big, big cities like Calcutta, Bombay, such festivals are held, people will come by thousands. It is training, culture. And this boy is taking three times bath, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is training and culture. And if he is kept in this culture, in future he'll be great saintly person. Then he'll do everything automatically. He will deliver others. It is training. *Hari-śauri: They got one of those movie projectors*-the ones in the small suitcase? With all the films. We were just testing it. They were just testing it downstairs. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We were planning to have..., to show one movie tonight for the guests, that new movie that is made about New Vrindaban. When our other guests arrive we will show it at about eight o'clock. Would you like also to see it again, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I have no objection. Where it will be shown? Hari-śauri: They can show it anywhere. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Anywhere, we can show it here if you like. Hari-śauri: Those little boxes, they also, apart from showing on the screen, they project onto the wall as well if you want. *Nava*-yauvana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Ali. He was living with us for about four months and chanting sixteen rounds. Then he was taken into the army. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Little bit of army, little bit of māyā. Prabhupāda: Hm? Ātreya Ṛṣi: A little bit of army took him, plus a little bit of māyā. He's a very sincere, nice boy. Prabhupāda: So. Let him go on chanting. Chanting cannot be checked, any position. So what is your inquiry further? Ātreya Ṛṣi: What is your further inquiry? *Prabhupāda: Our latest Vṛndāvana report is very encouraging. He has used the word "jam*-packed," always people. They are selling good number of magazines, books, prasādam. Guesthouse is also filled up. Now we have festival going on nice. Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is your further inquiry? Shahrezad(?): I'm thinking to ask a question. (long pause) [break] Ātreya Ṛṣi: There have been very few of them. Prabhupāda: Yes. You find out this verse: manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Purport. Harikeśa: "There are various grades of men, and out of many thousands one may be sufficiently interested in transcendental realization to try to know what is the self, what is the body, and what is the Absolute Truth. Generally, mankind is simply engaged in the animal propensities, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating, and hardly anyone is interested in transcendental knowledge." (Ātreya Ṛṣi translating in background) Prabhupāda: Ātreya, when this is going on you cannot talk, then the attention will be diverted. You can later on explain. Go on. *Harikeśa: "The first six chapters of the Gītā are meant for those who are interested in transcendental knowledge, in understanding the self, the Superself and the process of realization by jñāna*-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, and discrimination of the self from matter. However, Kṛṣṇa can only be known by persons who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other transcendentalists may achieve impersonal Brahman realization, for this is easier than understanding Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, but at the same time He is beyond the knowledge of Brahman and Paramātmā. The yogis and jñānīs are confused in their attempts to understand Kṛṣṇa, although the greatest of the impersonalists, Śrīpāda Śaṅkarācārya, has admitted in his Gītā commentary that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But his followers do not accept Kṛṣṇa as such, for it is very difficult to know Kṛṣṇa, even though one has transcendental realization of impersonal Brahman. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of..." Prabhupāda: The subject matter itself is difficult. Therefore ordinary persons or a little advanced person cannot understand. And unless one is fully aware of Kṛṣṇa, one cannot become spiritual master. The subject matter itself is difficult. Therefore you don't find many spiritual masters. Go on. Harikeśa: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes, the primeval Lord Govinda. Prabhupāda: (loud chanting from mosques and singing in background) These words, aja, what is the meaning of this? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Allah, "God is great, God is great, God is great." "God is greater than can be ever described. I accept and witness that God is one and there is no other partner, or any..." Prabhupāda: Competitor. Ātreya Ṛṣi: "...competitor to Him. I witness that Muhammad is the prophet of God, is the..." Prabhupāda: Representative. Ātreya Ṛṣi: "...representative of God. I witness and accept Ali as Muhammad's representative." Prabhupāda: Who is Ali? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Ali is representative of Muhammad. He is... Pradyumna: Son of Muhammad. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This azan is an invitation for namaz, glorification of God. He is... Prabhupāda: Inviting everyone, come. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Inviting everyone to come and sing and glorify God. Prabhupāda: And glorify. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is said five times a day..., three times a day. "Come and be truthful, and remain fortunate, remain truthful, stick to the right path. Come and join in the best activity, which is praise of the Lord. The highest form of activity, which is praise of the Lord." This is azan. Prabhupāda: It is very good. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very nice. Nobody hears it. Prabhupāda: Ātreya Ṛṣi: Your love also. *Prabhupāda: Yes, if I understand that he is rich, I may consider, "Well, I have got one thousand dollars, so he may have one hundred thousand dollars," that's all. But if you understand that he has got millions and millions of dollars, then you'll appreciate, "Oh, so rich!" Then your regard for him will increase. That is not being done. Stereotyped, "God is great." How He is great, to what extent He is great, what is His greatness activities, if you know more and more, then your regard for God will increase. But that they are not doing. Simply officially, "God is great, God is great," finished. No jijñāsā, no inquiry. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. One should be inquisitive. Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. One who has become inquisitive of the uttamam, the most exalted subject matter, he requires a guru. Otherwise, who will answer his inquiries? Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ. If he's not jijñāsuḥ, what is the need of guru? And where is the question of advancement? He must be jijñāsuḥ. That is, people are not interested. Officially, go to church, go to mosque, go to temple and do something. Then drop it and go to your own business and do whatever you like. No discrimination. They're not serious. Not very serious. One who is serious, he'll inquire. Otherwise, the formula is all right, "God is great, there is no more greater than Him." But inquire, "How He is great?" (guests enter) Thank you. Jaya. Therefore society is required, association is required, to inquire. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ [SB 3.25.25]. There is need of association for discussing how God is great. That is needed-jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. Unless one is inquisitive... Sharmaji, you can come here. So, that is the... Simply we should not remain satisfied to understand... That is not proper understanding, officially, "God is great." No. Try to inquire how great He is, why He is great. Then your regard for God, your devotion for God will increase. And because we do not inquire how God is great, therefore cheap gods are coming. Any rascal, he is repre... "I am God." Because we do not know actually what is God. But if you inquire about God, if you go through the śāstra, as it is stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā: Harikeśa: You want the last verse? Prabhupāda: No, one, where it is said, "I am this amongst this," and like that. Harikeśa: Just the English? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Harikeśa: "I am the Self, O Guḍākeśa, seated in the hearts of all creatures. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings. Of the Ādityas I am Viṣṇu, of lights I am the radiant sun, I am Marīci of the Maruts, and among the stars I am the moon. Of the Vedas I am the Sāma*-veda; of the demigods I am Indra; of the senses I am the mind; and in living beings I am the living force, knowledge. Of all the Rudras I am Lord Śiva; of the Yakṣas and Rākṣasas I am the lord of wealth (Kuvera); of the Vasus I am fire (Agni); and of the mountains I am Meru. Of priests, O Arjuna, know Me to be the chief, Bṛhaspati, the lord of devotion. Of generals I am Skanda, the lord of war; and of bodies of water I am the ocean. Of the great sages I am Bhṛgu; of vibrations I am the transcendental om. Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names (japa), and of immovable things I am the Himalayas. Of all trees I am the holy fig tree, and amongst sages and demigods I am Nārada. Of the singers of the gods (Gandharvas) I am Citraratha, and among perfected beings I am the sage Kapila. Of horses know Me to be Uccaiḥśravā, who rose out of the ocean, born of the elixir of immortality; of lordly elephants I am Airāvata, and among men I am the monarch. Of weapons I am the thunderbolt; among cows I am the surabhi, givers of abundant milk. Of procreators I am Kandarpa, the god of love, and of serpents I am Vāsuki, the chief. Of the celestial Nāga snakes I am Ananta; of the aquatic deities I am Varuṇa. Of departed ancestors I am Aryamā, and among the dispensers of law I am Yama, the lord of death. Among the Daitya demons I am the devoted Prahlāda; among subduers I am time; among the beasts I am the lion; and among birds I am Garuḍa, the feathered carrier of Viṣṇu. Of purifiers I am the wind; of the wielders of weapons I am Rāma; of fishes I am the shark; *and of flowing rivers I am the Ganges. Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O Arjuna. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the Self, and among logicians I am the conclusive truth. Of letters I am the letter A, and among compounds I am the dual word. I am also inexhaustible time, and of creators I am Brahmā, whose manifold faces turn everywhere. I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to be. Among women I am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, faithfulness and patience. Of hymns I am the Bṛhat-sāma sung to the Lord Indra, and of poetry I am the Gāyatrī verse, sung daily by brāhmaṇas. Of months I am November and December, and of seasons I am flower-bearing spring. I am also the gambling of cheats, and of the splendid I am the splendor. I am victory, I am adventure, and I am the strength of the strong. Of the descendants of Vṛṣṇi I am Vāsudeva, and of the Pāṇḍavas I am Arjuna. Of the sages I am Vyāsa, and among great thinkers I am Uśanā. Among punishments I am the rod of chastisement, and of those who seek victory, I am morality. Of secret things I am silence, and of the wise I am wisdom. Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being-moving or unmoving*-that can exist without Me. O mighty conqueror of enemies, there is no end of My divine manifestation. What I have spoken to you is but a mere indication of My infinite opulences. Know that all beautiful, glorious, and mighty creations spring but from a spark of My splendor. But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe." Prabhupāda: That's it. This is greatness. So we should not simply be satisfied God is great. We must try to know how great He is. Then our God consciousness will be fixed up. It's all right? Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's very beautiful. *Prabhupāda: That people are not interested. Only officially chanting "God is great," that's all. These are the... You try to understand. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the Vedānta*-sūtra. Go, inquire, be inquisitive. Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. One should be inquisitive. That is human life. And as soon as you become inquisitive, you become aware of God more and more, then your devotion increases. That is wanted. Mr. Sahani: It is also said that you have a blind faith. Prabhupāda: Blind faith? Mr. Sahani: You should have a faith in your God. But when you are inquisitive and you keep asking more and more and more, and... Prabhupāda: And who says that you keep blind faith? Who says? Mr. Sahani: You should have faith, in God, should have faith. Prabhupāda: No, no. God, it is not blind faith. God is there, you have to accept. It is not blind. Mr. Sahani: Means give up, give everything, surrender. You were talking day before yesterday, when we surrender that means we don't ask any question. So when we are inquisitive, then we ask more questions. How do we blend these two things? Prabhupāda: Blind, blind... God says that idam..., idaṁ te jñānam ākhyātam? Guhyam, guhyataraṁ mayā. Find out this. Harikeśa: Idaṁ te guhyatamam? Prabhupāda: Idaṁ te jñānam ākhyātam. That verse, the other day we discussed? Yathecchasi tathā kuru? Where is that verse? Pradyumna: Eighteenth chapter. Hari-śauri: Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam [Bg 18.68]? Pradyumna: Ya idam. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: So there is no question of blind faith. Here it is said that "I have explained to you the knowledge, confidential and most confidential. Now you consider about it, and after due consideration, then do whatever you like." But if you actually appreciate that there is God, here is Kṛṣṇa, so whatever He is saying, it is all right. Sarvam etad 'ṛtaṁ manye [Bg. 10.14]. There is no harm even if you accept His word blindly, there is no harm. Otherwise, if you don't like to follow blindly, then consider what is instructed. And then whatever you like, you can do. Both ways are there. But if you have faith in God, "God is saying this, I must do it," that blind faith is as good. Although it is blind faith, it is the fact. Actually it is not blind faith. It is full faith in God. "God is speaking this; I'll accept it." Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is the position of mahātmā. Although such mahātmās are very rare, but one who accepts this fact that "God is speaking, so let me accept it without any consideration," that is as good as you accept. If gold is real, something real gold is offered to you, you accept it blindly or by checking it, the result is the same. Mr. Sahani: But being inquisitive, again, and accepting it... *Prabhupāda: No, no. Inquisitive means one who does not accept that "Here is a person giving me gold. He's very good man, he'll not cheat me." Then you accept. But if you have no such faith, then you check it. But real gold, either you take in blind faith or by checking, the result is the same. Now it is up to you. If you believe Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead as He says... He is the Supreme Person. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. That's a fact. But if you don't believe it, then check and consider of our statement, and then accept. Two ways are there. Why people are misled? They do not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They are taking Bhagavad*-gītā in their own way. So why they should take Bhagavad-gītā in their own way? That is not good. If you want to speak something better than Bhagavad-gītā, you speak separately. Why you misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā? Our preaching process is that you take Bhagavad-gītā's instruction, that is perfect, and you'll be happy. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Don't try to interpret it. Don't try to exact some meaning of your choice. No, that is not good. You take it as it is, you'll be benefited. Now if you take it, that it is spoken by Bhagavān svayam, then it is blind faith. It may be blind faith, but it is right. If you don't want, then Kṛṣṇa says, iti te jñānam ākhyātaṁ guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā. Then you check it by your knowledge. Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. Both ways you can accept. Therefore we have to follow mahājana. Our knowledge is always scanty. So mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. That is the way. Tarkaḥ apratiṣṭha. Tarka, by argument you'll never come to the conclusion. Śrutayor vibhinnam. There are śāstras for different persons, in different way they are presented. So they appear to be contradictory from one another. Not contradictory; *at least, different from one another. So śrutayor vibhinnam. Na cāsav ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. And a great philosopher is not a great philosopher if he does not present a different view. So therefore, the spiritual essence is very confidential. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihita guhyayam.(?)Therefore we have to follow the mahājana, great personality. That is the system, Vedic system. Guru*-paramparā. So that paramparā is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mahājana. Kṛṣṇa said imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Rājarṣi, mahājana. Mahājanas are explained also. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, he's mahājana; Bali Mahārāja, mahājana; Brahmā, mahājana; Nārada, mahājana; *Lord Śiva, mahājana. Balir vaiyāsakir vayam. Janaka Mahārāja. So we have to follow them. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. That is recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā: evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. So there is no question of blind faith. If we follow the mahājana, example of the authorities, then our life is success. And guru means he is mahājana or follower of mahājana. So we have to select the mahājana process. According to our process, we follow the Brahma-sampradāya. And Brahmā is one of the mahājanas. So Brahmā has his disciplic succession, paramparā. Brahmā's disciple is Nārada, Nārada's disciple is Vyāsadeva, and Vyāsadeva's disciple is Śukadeva Gosvāmī. In this way, we come to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu's disciples, the six Gosvāmīs. Then others, then our Guru Mahārāja. But the same thing we are speaking. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. We are not manufacturing anything. That is the guru-paramparā system. And if we follow strictly the line of mahājana, then there is no question of mistake. It is not blind faith. The superiors are following, and we are also following. Of course, there are books, there are everything. Śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi-pañcarātra-vidhi [Brs. 1.2.101]. Everything is there. So there is no question of being mistaken. The guide is there, the spiritual master is there. So there is no difficulty. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. That is the best way, follow the mahājana. Unfortunately, the mahājanas, without following mahājana, everyone is becoming mahājana in his own way. And that is being supported, that you manufacture your own way of spiritual progress, that is all right. That is dangerous. That is dangerous. And that is going on now. You can manufacture in your own way. And there are thousands who are coming, manufacturing their own way and spoiling the whole thing. That is the... Otherwise there is no difficulty, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. We are therefore requesting people that don't be misled. Here is the greatest mahājana, Kṛṣṇa Himself. You follow His instruction. It is very easy, there is no complication. This is our propaganda. But we don't make any compromise. Why shall I make compromise? If we are presenting the right thing, why shall I make compromise with something wrong? (Hindi) Baliye(?). If we are confident that we are presenting the right thing, why shall I make compromise with the wrong thing? (Hindi) No, you are intelligent. You can say if I am saying something wrong. Our culture has been spoiled by interpreting wrongly Kṛṣṇa's words. Bhārata-bhūmi, puṇya-bhūmi... still, thousands and millions are there. If there is Kumbhamelā, millions of men are coming. Whenever we hold some Kṛṣṇa consciousness meeting, daily, twenty thousand, fifteen thousand, thirty thousand men come. The spirit is there. Unfortunately, that is being artificially depressed. But it cannot be done. The puṇya-bhūmi, bhārata-bhūmi, it will go on. But the unfortunate thing is that the clear thing is there and that is being misinterpreted and people are misled. That is the difficulty. [break] (Prabhupāda converses in Hindi with guest) *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā, (Hindi), manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. So they are not interested. They are simply interested with eat, drink, be merry and enjoy. Then? You were telling, that "First of all, let us become rich like Americans, then we shall talk of Kṛṣṇa." When they go to preach about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the people say that "We shall think of Kṛṣṇa later on." In India also they say. that "We are now poverty-stricken. Let us first of all become rich, and then we shall think of Kṛṣṇa." They say like that. They are not interested. They think to become rich is more than understanding Kṛṣṇa. That is the position. Therefore they are not interested. They say frankly that "We are not interested, why do you bother us?" they say. "Why do you bother us? Why do you come here to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" How much difficult it is you can just understand. They are not ready to hear about it, and our leaders say, "All the śāstras now throw away in the water." *Mrs. Patel: Do you think the deep*-rooted Indian culture and religion will ever have a sort of a re-creation, or will it continue? Prabhupāda: Continue, because if you remain like animals, it will continue. If you become human being actually, then it will stop. But we want to continue as animals. That is the present position. The present civilization is very strong animal platform. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Purport. *Harikeśa: "The Lord at once took the position of the teacher and chastised the student, calling him, indirectly, a fool. The Lord said, 'You are talking like a learned man, but you do not know that one who is learned*-one who knows what is body and what is soul-does not lament for any stage of the body, neither in the living nor in the dead condition.' As it will be explained in later chapters, it will be clear that knowledge means to know matter and spirit and the controller of both. Arjuna argued that religious principles should be given more importance than politics or sociology, but he did not know that knowledge of matter, soul and the Supreme is even more important than religious formularies. And, because he was lacking in that knowledge, he should not have posed himself as a very learned man." Prabhupāda: Yes. He was posing himself as the body. So he should not consider himself as a learned man. Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. Then? Harikeśa: "As he did not happen to be a very learned man, he was consequently lamenting for something which was unworthy of lamentation. This body is born and is destined to be vanquished today or tomorrow; therefore the body is not as important as the soul. One who knows this is actually learned, and for him there is no cause for lamentation, regardless of the condition of the material body." *Prabhupāda: The people are not aware of these things, neither they are interested to know that the soul is more important than the body. This is the beginning of the Bhagavad*-gītā. Still, they are placing themselves as learned scholars in Bhagavad-gītā. But sticking to the body. And one who is sticking to the bodily concept of life, he's no better than sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. The whole civilization is going on this understanding of body. And then Kṛṣṇa begins that instruction, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. That is very vividly explained, that the soul is important because it is eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Don't think by the end of the body the soul is also ended. It will continue, and it accepts another body, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. So who is caring for this knowledge? Suppose I have got to... It is fact, we have to change this body. But what body I am going to change, who is considering? He's thinking of this body only, but he has to change. The science is there, but nobody is caring to know it. And still, they are proud of their education. And Kṛṣṇa condemns: nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. So they are keeping themselves on the bodily concept of life and posing themselves as pandit. A person identifying himself with the body, he's go-kharaḥ, and he's posing himself as paṇḍita. This is the position. The whole education is to realize that "I am not this body, I am soul," ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. Then he'll be happy. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. Everything is there. You cannot become a learned scholar or learned leader from the platform of go-kharaḥ. That is the defect. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: [Bg. 2.13] this is the first instruction. Who is thinking that "What next body I'm going to accept?" Nobody's thinking. They say after finishing this body everything is finished. And Gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Then what kind of paṇḍita he is? Bhagavad-gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20], nityam, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. The soul is immortal. Antavanta ime dehāḥ: the śarīra is antavat, perishable. Nityasyoktāḥ śarīrinaḥ. Who is considering? If I am eternal, if I am not going to die even after the annihilation of the body, then the next question would be jijñāsuḥ. Then what will be my next position? What kind of body I am going to get? That is intelligent. But nobody has this intelligence, and he's passing as paṇḍita. Big, big professor, they'll say, "Swamiji, after death, everything is finished." I went to Moscow. There was a big professor, Kotovsky, Indology professor. So we had some talks. So he does not believe transmigration of the soul, and he's a learned scholar. And everywhere you find that. The same atheistic philosophy. Mrs. Patel: It is convenient for them to. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not convenient, foolishness. A rabbit, when there is some big animals, he closes his eyes. He thinks, "There is no danger." That does not mean he's out of danger. He'll be eaten up. So simply by concocting that there is no life after death, you'll not be escaped. In Bhagavad*-gītā informs, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. There is no need of studying any literature, Vedic literature. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ, Kṛṣṇa is giving evidence. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. This dehāntara-prāptiḥ, I was not this body in the beginning, I was a very jubilant child like this. Where is that body? That body is not existing. It is different body, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. So why they do not believe dehāntara-prāptiḥ? I am the same soul who possessed a child's body, young man's body, boy's body. Now I have got the old man's body. So dehāntara is there, and I am still. I remember, I was a child, I was lying down on the lap of my elder sister. I remember still. But where is that body? It is different body. This is dehāntara-prāptiḥ. I am the same man who was lying down on the lap of my elder sister, and now I am differently situated. The body has changed. This is the proof, Kṛṣṇa is giving you this proof. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So if we accept authority of Kṛṣṇa and His statement, so reasonable and so scientific, then our life is successful. And if we don't care for them, let us do our business. But nature will not excuse. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā [Bg. 3.27]. Simply our false ahaṅkāra, egotism: "Ah, I don't care." You may do that, but prakṛti will take action. Because you are under the control of the nature's law. Uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Uru means very hard, tight. Or uru means the thigh. And dāmni (means) by ropes, baddha. We cannot transgress the laws of nature. If we willfully transgress, we can do that, but we will have to suffer. If you touch fire, it will burn. It will not excuse that "Here is a child, he did not know." No excuse. Either a child or elderly, you have touched fire, then you must be burned. This is nature's law. Very strict. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. Why you have got different bodies? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. As we have associated with the modes of material nature, we have got different types of bodies. Otherwise, why there are so many varieties of forms? The forms are different, but within the form, the soul is one. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, maybe we could show that movie now? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Which side you'll show? This side. Dayānanda: I want to show it (indistinct), Prabhupāda, then everyone can sit here on the inside so you can see. Prabhupāda: All right. That's nice. What is that? Again? *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. (movie dialogue*-break) Would you like to see another, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Harikeśa: "As Brilliant As the Sun"? This film is really first class. (some discussion while setting up film) [break] Prabhupāda: This is due to American boy's cooperation. Mr. Sahani: Yes, very nice. A great achievement. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Due to Śrīla Prabhupāda's mercy. Prabhupāda: And now we are trying Middle East with the cooperation of Iranians. Mr. Sahani: I'm sure next year there'll be a film on Iran. When are you going to make the public announcement for this temple? Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is announced. Śrīla Prabhupāda's visit was sufficient. Prabhupāda: It is announced by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma. As many towns and villages are there on the surface of the globe, this movement will go on. Sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma. This will go on. It is already predicted by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Mr. Sahani: You've not seen today, the temple building has been taken over. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Mr. Patel has donated over $20,000 for the purchase of that temple, Mr. and Mrs. Patel. Prabhupāda: Sannimitan bharam tyaga vinasena isati(?). Money will be spent, and if it is spent for good cause, that is the proper utilization. Ātreya Ṛṣi: All the community people here in this room have donated as much as they can. They have helped us. Prabhupāda: In America we have got the facility for selling books. Contribution there is, but our main source of income by selling books. We are selling books to the extent of sixty...? Harikeśa: Sixty thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: Sixty thousand dollars daily. Sixty thousand dollars daily. America and Europe. Europe we have got other language publication. Have you got the German? *Jñānagamya: We had French books, Bhagavad*-gītā, Prabhupāda, it was sold. We had one German Bhagavad-gītā too. *Prabhupāda: We have published Chinese Bhagavad*-gītā. Bring it. It is translated by one Chinese student. Give it to Mr.... Mrs. Patel: I can read Japanese, but not Chinese. Prabhupāda: You know Japanese? Mrs. Patel: I was brought up there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mrs. Patel: So it was just as good as born there. I was just six months baby when I was taken there. Prabhupāda: Tokyo? Mrs. Patel: Kobe. Prabhupāda: Oh, Kobe. Oh, in Kobe there are many... Mrs. Patel: Many, eleven years I stayed. Prabhupāda: I have been there. Many good Indian population. There is a Indian association there. I have been there. Mrs. Patel: Yes. *Jñānagamya: You are the greatest teacher in recorded history, Prabhupāda, because your movement is so well founded in these books, more so than any religious teacher*-Muhammad, Buddha, Jesus Christ. Your movement is perfectly founded even during your own lifetime. All your books are perfectly edited by you. It is truly Lord Caitanya's mercy. Prabhupāda: Books means solid ground. What we want to preach, it is recorded, not any concocted ideas. There is direction by Rūpa Gosvāmī: Ātreya Ṛṣi: Mrs. Patel has prepared some khicuḍi. Prabhupāda: Khicuḍi? Where it is? Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's here. Prabhupāda: I'll take. How many children? You have children? Mrs. Patel: Two sons and one daughter. Prabhupāda: Two sons. Mrs. Patel: And one daughter. They have gone to India for their holidays now. They wanted to go to India. Prabhupāda: So, give everyone little, little prasāda. You have seen our Bombay temple? We are spending about one crore of... Mr. Patel: We have seen this Vṛndāvana. Last year we went. Prabhupāda: There we have spent more than fifty lakhs. Mr. Sahani: Is New Vrindaban temple the main center of the society where everybody should... Prabhupāda: No. New Vrindaban is one of the centers. We have got 103 centers. In Australia also we have got, Melbourne. Hari-śauri: Shouldn't we all eat downstairs? Should we have everyone take prasāda downstairs? Prabhupāda: No, here. [break] ...Kṛṣṇa practically showing how to live Vṛndāvana life. In Vṛndāvana nobody knows Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, nobody knows. But their love for Śrī Kṛṣṇa is intense. That is wanted. Premā pumartho mahān. That is required. You simply become an intense lover of Kṛṣṇa, bas. Your life is successful. It doesn't require any education or... That is the Vṛndāvana residents' life. They did not know what Kṛṣṇa is. But it is, very loving center, all the residents of Vṛndāvana. When Kṛṣṇa's wonderful activities are discussed, Nanda Mahārāja's friend would suggest, "Nanda Mahārāja, your son is wonderful. He must be some demigod. He has come to live with us." They did not know that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. (long pause) How far it is, Afghanistan from here? Mr. Sahani: Actually, it's only one and a half hours. Prabhupāda: Only? By car? Mr. Sahani: No, no, by air. It's about, less than two thousand kilometers. Border is even nearer, but Kabul is less than two thousand kilometers. Prabhupāda: One Afghan gentleman came. In Afghanistan there are many domiciled Hindus. Mr. Sahani: Yes. Originally we use to live in Peshwar and they used to work and do business in Kabul and they lived in Kabul, but then they stayed on there and became Afghans. Prabhupāda: After Pakistan. They left Peshwar and went to... Mr. Sahani: No, they were not living there because there was no passport, there was no need of visa, you could anytime come and go. But after independence of Pakistan, at the same time, they made border, and a country of their own, and then these people stayed on this side, and they became Afghans. There are about, oh, six thousand, five, six thousand. Prabhupāda: Homes. Mr. Sahani: No, five, six thousand people who are Hindus but have Afghan passports. They have got a beautiful temple there. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Mr. Sahani: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: In Kabul. Mr. Sahani: Yes, beautiful temple, and there are many Sikhs also there. Prabhupāda: No, why not a beautiful temple here? Mr. Sahani: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is there any objection? Mr. Sahani: No objection. *Mrs. Patel: Of course not. Because there's already Gurukula*-dwara (?) here. There shouldn't be any. Mr. Sahani: They have no objection, there's no restriction from the government. Prabhupāda: So make a nice temple. Ātreya Ṛṣi: First we need the land. Prabhupāda: Take that land that you showed me. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, we need a piece of land. Prabhupāda: Why piece? Take big land. Make something gorgeous. Kṛṣṇa is not poor. Although He likes to live in the village, but He is Dvārakādhīśa also. Mr. Patel: It should be big land for the... Mr. Sahani: Here the land prices are five times what they are in America. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Eh? There? Mr. Sahani: The price of land here in Tehran is five times what it is in New York. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? (laughter) Mrs. Sahani: Highest, most highest in the world, next to probably Tokyo. Mr. Sahani: The house which you have seen today is worth two lakhs of dollars. In two lakhs of dollars you can have palace in America. Prabhupāda: No, not that... Mr. Sahani: But two lakhs here, you have to have all two lakhs completely in your hand before you can step into this house. Over there with two lakhs you step into the house, a palace of one million dollars. Prabhupāda: Our Los Angeles temple, what we paid? Dayānanda, you know? *Dayānanda: It was two twenty*-five, I think. 225,000 dollars. Prabhupāda: 225,000. Dayānanda: 225,000. Mr. Sahani: 225,000. But it must be a gorgeous place. Beautiful. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Mr. Sahani: And what was the downpayment for the... Prabhupāda: I paid fifty thousand. Mr. Sahani: Fifty thousand. Here the downpayment means the total payment. You have to pay everything. Mr. Patel: And land is so small, must be very small. Mr. Sahani: We expect that in one or two years' time the prices of land will come back to normal, or at least there will be some place available out of town at a reasonable price. When that happens, I think... Ātreya Ṛṣi: I don't think that will happen. Mr. Patel: No, it won't happen. Price will never become down. Mr. Sahani: Now, you know, people are taking the advantage. One who is selling now, he's going to America. He said "Let me collect this two lakhs of dollars, go and buy in America." Prabhupāda: They, in America, they immigration? Mr. Sahani: He must have taken immigration. His family is going to America. His son and daughter must be there. All Iranians have sons or daughters in America or Europe. So... Prabhupāda: What is the reason? Mr. Sahani: Reason is because from the last fifty years the education was a big problem here. And the government needed people to get educated. So they gave lot of facilities that people should send their children out to get educated. Prabhupāda: Foreign education. Mr. Sahani: Yes. So everybody who could have some money if he could afford it, he sent his children to America, London, Paris, Germany. Berne, even Switzerland, but they are full in Germany, they are full in London, they are full in America. They are the four places where everybody... In London you walk everywhere on the street and you can hear... Prabhupāda: Oh, you are going? Thank you very much. Utsāhān dhairyāt... *Nava*-yauvana: So we are here, if we work hard and try to please Kṛṣṇa, then there we will get a temple. Śrīla Prabhupāda arrived in New York with only eight dollars? Forty dollars? How many dollars you had when you arrived in New York? Prabhupāda: Seven dollars. *Nava*-yauvana: Seven dollars. Dayānanda: I think you got that from selling *Bhāgavatam*. Prabhupāda: No, that extra. I brought from India seven dollars. At that time the exchange was four rupees, eight annas. So they would not allow to take more than forty rupees. That is sufficient. So I wanted to sell one set of books to the captain, Mr. Pandiya. So he gave me twenty dollars in exchange of three books. I was confident Kṛṣṇa was there seven dollars. (end) *Morning Walk-*-August 12, 1976, Tehran Prabhupāda: That they do not know. Their advancement of knowledge is so poor, that if the chemicals of the semina and ovum, by mixture, life can be generated, so why you wait for such accident? You can combine such chemicals. Why you are waiting for the accident or chance meeting? You can produce. That they cannot. Then how it is accident? Just like nowadays the ox, bull's semina is injected in the cow, artificial semination? Jñānagamya: Yes, for cows they do that. Prabhupāda: But that semina is taken from a bull. Why not chemically prepare and inject? Jñānagamya: Also for humans sometimes, humans also. Prabhupāda: Anyway, you have to take from another living being. Why not prepare the chemicals? Then postdated check: "Yes, we are trying. Wait millions of years." The same rascaldom. And who is preparing that chemical? You have to wait for millions of years, who is preparing that chemical now? *Nava*-yauvana: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: What is your answer? Who is preparing now the chemicals? You are, just like you are trying to prepare some chemical, so the chemical is already there. So somebody has prepared, you have to accept, huh? Why not? Jñānagamya: You said once before they are spending so much money to do what has already been done. It has already been done and they are spending millions... Prabhupāda: If they are trying to prepare that chemical and asking us, "Wait millions of years." But who has prepared now? Harikeśa: Lust. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is already discussed. Don't talk foolishly. Harikeśa: No, but the original cause... Prabhupāda: Lusty desire, that is their theory, that's all. But the lusty desire is not the cause. The cause is the semina. Harikeśa: But the lusty desire is the cause of the semina. Prabhupāda: That is one of the cause, there are many causes. Remote causes, immediate causes, there are many causes. Harikeśa: But that's the original cause. Prabhupāda: What is that original cause? Harikeśa: That lust. Prabhupāda: Original for you because you are rascal. But there is another cause before that. Harikeśa: But we don't see that cause. Prabhupāda: That is your poor fund of knowledge. You are seeing simply some immediate cause. That is your poor fund of knowledge. Cause after cause, cause after cause, that is a study, a real study. If that is the cause, then you prepare that semina. Harikeśa: But we see that lust is the whole basis of this world, there's nothing beyond it. Prabhupāda: That you see because you are rascal. That is our charges against you. You see because you are rascal. You do not know, you have no sufficient knowledge. But our charge is that the lust is the..., Yes, all right, the lust is the cause and the discharge is there, so why you are waiting the discharge of a human being? Why not prepare that chemical? Where is that advancement? Why you take from a man the discharge and put into the woman, either man or animal? You prepare. Ātreya Ṛṣi: If you take the scientist's thinking like this one step further, we see that because of this thinking they do not see, they become very confused, and then they say God is..., if there is God, He's unjust. He's not just because... Prabhupāda: That's all right. There is God, rascal. First of all, our point is this. Unjust or just, we shall see later on. First of all, you accept there is God. Jñānagamya: They are analyzing the semina, they find DNA molecules, like this, but they cannot find the essence. They cannot understand the essence of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is my proposition. That is poor fund of knowledge. Still, they are trying to establish "This is the cause." Harikeśa: No, we can find, the essence is lust, because as soon as there is lust, automatically there's all these other things. So you don't have to make all these other things because automatically lust creates everything. There is no need... Jñānagamya: But there's also lust, the scientists are lusty to create and experiment. Prabhupāda: But you cannot create such lust. Harikeśa: Oh, yes, I create it all the time. Prabhupāda: Then why there is no life? Jñānagamya: If I am a lusty scientist then I can be lusty with a woman or I can be lusty with the test tubes and the chemicals. The lust is there, so why is there no artificial semina? The same lust is there. Desire for profit, adoration, distinction is there. So they are a failure. Harikeśa: Our proposition is nothing like this, our proposition is that lust is the creation of everything. Prabhupāda: Therefore I charge. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So we put you in a room with a lot of lust and you create a baby. Harikeśa: No, that will happen automatically, you just, the ingredients come together automatically. *Prabhupāda: Obstinate rascals. Not only rascal, but obstinate rascal. Their only remedy is shoe. That's all. Obstinacy. There is a story about obstinacy. Two friends were talking. One friend said, "This is cut by a scissor." So another friend says, "No, it is cut by the knife." So then there was fight. So the friend who was talking of the knife, he was strong enough. So he captured him: "You accept it is scissor, otherwise I'll throw you in the water." So other, "No, it is scissor," so he threw him in the water. So when he was dying, he was doing like this. (Prabhupāda makes a hand motion like scissor) (laughter) So he is obstinate rascal. It is as good as that garden here. Rather, here there is no disturbance of outsiders, and there there are so many disturbances. It is better. Our theory is... Not theory, fact*-daiva-netreṇa. These things are arranged by superior management. Jñānagamya: Actually, Prabhupāda, that lust is a perverted expression of love. Kṛṣṇa is creating out of love, and in the material world it becomes perverted. So in the material world lust is the cause. Prabhupāda: Yes. In the spiritual world, what is love, that is in the material world lust. Harikeśa: Then you agree with me? Jñānagamya: Yes, you are right, but you do not understand where that lust is coming from. That lust is perverted from Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Obstinate. It is perverted reflection of love. Actually, it is... They say it is love. The sahajiyās in Vṛndāvana, they have got connection with woman. If you criticize them, say "Why you are connected with illicit sex?" "What is the wrong there? It is love." They say it is love. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What is their definition of love? Prabhupāda: Rascals, they are all... These sahajiyās, you'll find most of them illiterate. Not a single of them is even literate, they are so low class. Most of them they come to Vṛndāvana... Why Vṛndāvana? There are many other places. Their aim is woman and money. Just like these swamis and yogis, they come. Ātreya Ṛṣi: To the West. Prabhupāda: Simply the ultimate goal is women and money. You may become whatever you may become. You become a yogi, you become a bābājī, you become a swami, but the ultimate goal is a woman and money. That's all. I'm feeling nice here. There is open air and grass. *Nava*-yauvana: These rascals don't understand that lust also has its laws and they are under these strict laws of lust. They are thinking they are independent. Prabhupāda: No, lust... Suppose lust is... Then lust between man and woman. Then this lust will cause. Harikeśa: That's a law in physics also, "opposites attract." Prabhupāda: Yes, and who made the opposites? Harikeśa: No, that's just the natural arrangement of things. Prabhupāda: What is natural? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Who arranged? Harikeśa: That's the complete. No, you see that's complete. Two opposite things, they're like two halves of a circle. Prabhupāda: No, why, who has made this? Harikeśa: But it's just eternally there. It's just, that's just the complete arrangement, it's everything. Prabhupāda: But eternally there, but why the body of woman is attracted to man and the man's body is attracted? Who has made it? Between man and man there is no such attraction. Harikeśa: But that's the complete arrangement. It doesn't have to have a cause. Prabhupāda: Arrangement, as soon as you mention arrangement, there is arranger. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Arranger, who is arranger. Prabhupāda: As soon as you say arrangement. *Nava*-yauvana: They say it's chemistry, but then there must be a chemist. Harikeśa: Well, it's the arrangement of the complete whole. Prabhupāda: What is that complete whole? You say arrangement. The arrangement is if there is arrangement, there is brain. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Who is the complete whole? Prabhupāda: Arrangement is not accidental. *Nava*-yauvana: They say yin and yang. Prabhupāda: I am coming here. This child can say the arrangement was there. She can say like that. But I'm adult, I know the arrangement was there. It was made by somebody. Harikeśa: Yes, but for every amount of arrangement there is a disarrangement. Prabhupāda: Disarrangement also can be... When there is arrangement, there can be disarrangement. Harikeśa: So that's a complete whole also. Prabhupāda: No, as soon as you accept arrangement, there is brain. Either you make arrangement or somebody makes. Harikeśa: So the complete whole also is brain and brainless. Prabhupāda: Brains, complete whole is pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate. That is complete. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate [Iso Invocation]. That is beginning of *Īśopaniṣad*. It is already explained, the complete. What is that complete? Complete means complete brain. That is complete. Complete means complete brain. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Because He has complete brain. Anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ, He's complete aware of everything. Therefore there is complete arrangement. This is the definition of complete. Complete in awareness. Therefore there is complete arrangement. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate. There is the pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate. Complete arrangement comes from the complete, pūrṇāt. There is water. This water has come from a water stock. The arrangement is complete. Wherefrom the water has come? It has come from another water stock. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate. So what you call eternal, pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate [Iso Invocation]. It is so complete that if you take out the whole complete, again it is complete. The supply is again complete. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu was requested by one devotee that, "My Lord, You have come, You take all the sinful living beings by Your mercy. And if you think that is not possible, then give all their sinful reactions unto me, I shall suffer. You take them." Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that this universe is just like a mustard seed in the bag of mustard seed. So suppose this universe is taken away. Then what about the other? (aside:) You should cover your leg. Ātreya Ṛṣi: These arguments against atheists are very convincing, and only absolute fools can resist it, but those fools we cannot do anything with. Prabhupāda: No, no, they are, for them the argumentum ad baculum. You know argumentum ad baculum? You know? What is that. Harikeśa: That's the fourth stage in diplomatic tactics, where you hit them with a stick. Prabhupāda: That's it. Ātreya Ṛṣi: For example... Prabhupāda: For them, argumentum ad baculum. Sanskrit is mūrkhasya laktosadi(?). Just like animal. Animal, if you give argument, no. When you show stick and beat him, then he'll, he'll be... Argumentum ad baculum for them. Ātreya Ṛṣi: In Iran most people accept all our philosophy fully, but they are not willing to accept authority from Kṛṣṇa because they say, well, why is... They cannot be convinced that Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead, Supreme Personality of Godhead. *Prabhupāda: Then there is proof: śāstra is there, sādhu is there, ācārya is there, other authorities are there. Just like Arjuna said, that, quoted Vyāsa, Nārada, Asita, Devala, "All of them have accepted You the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and You are explaining Yourself. Therefore I have no doubt." Vyāsadeva is authority, Nārada is authority, and there are many others. Recently, all the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu... We are following the Caitanya cult, but He's stated yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa. He's accepting. Why does He say "Kṛṣṇa"? Why does He not say others? Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa yāre dekha [Cc. Madhya 7.128], tāre kaha And Kṛṣṇa also, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7], "There is no more superior person." And Arjuna accepted, "Whatever You are saying, it is all reasonable." Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye [Bg. 10.14]. "Whatever you have said, I accept in toto." There is no cut short, "I don't like this, I don't accept this." No, everything, sarvam etad. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The basic difference still is that they are saying that Kṛṣṇa, God, whatever you call Him, He..., the paramparā system starts from Him sending a representative, and then that representative has devotees and devotees, like that. But we also say that that is true, but also there is, you could... Prabhupāda: Bring that wrapper. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is true, but also we could have paramparā go all the way to Kṛṣṇa Himself. Prabhupāda: Yes, paramparā is coming from Kṛṣṇa. *Nava*-yauvana: In Islam they say that God cannot come to this earth. Ātreya Ṛṣi: God would not come to this earth. Prabhupāda: God cannot speak? God cannot come. A very big man, he can come, but He cannot speak? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They agree. He can speak and He can send representatives. Prabhupāda: Because He has spoken to Muhammad, and Muhammad has come, he is speaking the same thing. So recently... There is no need of God's coming. If Muhammad is speaking on behalf of God, then that is all right. There is no need of God's coming. This is paramparā. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That they agree. And they also agree that that paramparā is lost. They agree with that because they can see there is nobody who can represent Muhammad. There is not a single person. They agree. Prabhupāda: No, that is everywhere. Ātreya Ṛṣi: In every religion it is true. *Prabhupāda: Just like these rascals, Bhagavad*-gītā they explain in a different way. What Kṛṣṇa says, rejected. He says something else. That is the difficulty-paramparā is lost. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And the most convincing argument that Your Divine Grace is making is that we are not just talking, we are also acting. That is the big difference between our philosophy and all the others. Because there are many good philosophies, but they all finish in talk. Prabhupāda: Talking, that's all. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Perfect philosophy, but talk. Prabhupāda: The scientists also, they are talking, but there is no practical proof. Simply talking. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is how we can attract people, through action. Prabhupāda: Āpani ācari prabhu jīvera śikṣāya. That is the way. (child chanting in background) Just see how he's chanting, this boy, his son, he's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is not joke. (all chant japa) That building is costly, but we have left that building, we have come here. And this is costlier? Nature's way of... In the room, to make us comfortable you have to run on the fan? Here we are, don't require any fan. So what is the advantage? Hari-śauri: Well, if it rains, then we'll go back inside. *Prabhupāda: And if your electricity fails, you'll go to hell. (laughter) This is no argument. That is obstinate rascal's argument. That one, they were eating yogurt. Everyone said, "Oh, very first-class, nice yogurt." Everyone was saying. So there was the obstinate rascal, he has to find out some fault. He said, "Yes, it is very nice, but if we keep it three days it will be bad." He's not thinking of the present, but he has to criticize it, that if you keep it three days it will become bad. That is all right, but what you are tasting now, talking of that. When there will be rain, you'll have to go in the room*-this is no argument. This is obstinate rascaldom. We're talking of this. If accident and this and that, then in everywhere that will... That I've already replied, if there is electricity failure, then it is... Hari-śauri: But we have to plan for the future. Prabhupāda: Future you cannot plan. That is the foolishness. That is another obstinate rascaldom. Future is not in your hand. You cannot plan. That is going on. They are planning so many things for future, but it is being baffled. So many schemes, so many there are. Our, in India there is a planning commission, after independence. So whatever they did, all failure. All failure. And now it is chaos. That Guljanajana(?) Nanda you know? He was one of the prominent member of the planning commission. He was very important member in the central government, home member, planning commission, president and so on, so on. Nowadays he is loitering on the street, coming me to talk as ordinary man. You have seen? You were giving me massage on the roof and he was sitting? Hari-śauri: Yes. He's just trying to make some name and fame now by becoming a pious man. Prabhupāda: So he's coming to me. He was very big man. Home member Ran Nitola(?) was president. Hari-śauri: He was prime minister for about ten days. Prabhupāda: Yes, for a few days. He was a very prominent member in the cabinet, and now see. So planning, you make so many plans, but it requires sanction. That planning is condemned by Prahlāda Mahārāja. Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nṛsiṁha nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ. In this way, there is a verse, that we are planning, that every parent is planning how his child will be grown nice, educated, but it becomes different. Every father, mother plan that "My child should be like this." But he is becoming hippie. When there is somebody diseased, rich man, he is planning to save him, best physician, best medicine supplied, but he's dying. So what is the value of your planning? Your planning is... That's all right. That's your duty. But it requires the sanction of some higher authority. Otherwise useless. That is your position. You may make plan, but unless it is sanctioned by the higher authority, then it is useless. That is practically going on. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This morning both of these boys would like to be initiated if you would give them your mercy. Prabhupāda: Yes, so let them... *Ātreya Ṛṣi: After the guru*-pūjā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: My I make some arrangements? May I go and...? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. But they should shave and have hair short cut. Jñānagamya: Our only plan should be to put our mind on Kṛṣṇa's feet. Prabhupāda: Our plan should be to accept Kṛṣṇa's plan, that's all. Approved, authorized plan. That is very easy. Take any words of Kṛṣṇa, it is very easy. What is your problem, first of all? Just consider, whether Kṛṣṇa answers it. First of all, propose what is your problem. Hari-śauri: Well, my problem is that I have to have somewhere to live and I have to get something to eat. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that Kṛṣṇa's solves. Yes, Kṛṣṇa says annād bhavanti bhūtāni: [Bg. 3.14] produce food grains. You have to work because it is material world. You cannot sit idly. Even if you are a very strong tiger, you don't expect that animals will come and enter your mouth. You have to work for it. This is the world. Na hi suptasya siṁhasya praviśanti mukhe mṛgāḥ. Suppose a lion... He's the king of the forest. And if he says, "It is my order, I'll sleep here and all the animals may come in my mouth." The animals will urine on his face. "Yes, we shall pass urine on your face. We are not going to accept your order." You have to work. Practical, everyone has to work. This is the third nature. Avidyā karma*-saṅga. Because here everyone is under ignorance, the punishment is he has to work for his living condition. Work is not very pleasing. It is very troublesome. But he has to. Avidyā karma-saṅga. You have to work. Therefore we see practically that countries who are working very diligently, they are materially prosperous. Europe, America, they work very diligently, hard, and they have got material prosperity. And the Eastern countries, they are not working, intelligent. From material point of view. From spiritual point of view that is another thing. Hari-śauri: So all I have to do is just make some working arrangement. Prabhupāda: No, that work is recommended. Your question is how Kṛṣṇa is giving you instruction. Just like food, Kṛṣṇa says annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. You produce anna. Kṛṣṇa never said that you produce tire tubes. Never says. Hari-śauri: But the same example, in the West, we weren't so materially prosperous until we started industrialism. The prosperity was not there until we started our big factories. Prabhupāda: No, no. Just like in India, there was no industry at all. Until the British period, there was no industry. Not a single. Even in Muhammadan period there was no industry, and they were happy. There was no industry. The Muhammadans also did not know how to start industry. It is Western imported, larger scale industry. Cottage industry was there. Hari-śauri: Such a high standard of living, that was not available to as many people as there is now. Prabhupāda: What is that higher standard? When there was no industry, in India, there was full of gold, jewelries. And now there is plastic. Harikeśa: Yes, but now there's TV. Prabhupāda: TV, yes. Harikeśa: How can you enjoy without TV? Prabhupāda: Yes, how can you waste your time? *Nava*-yauvana: Their reason, they say, is because we have to work so hard all day, then we have to try to forget, watch the television. Prabhupāda: Why should you work? If you have to forget, why should you take such nonsense things that you have to forget again? Why not chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Even the child does not forget. He's chanting. Take such things that you'll enjoy. The more you do not forget, you more enjoy. Why should you take up something that you have to forget? This is rascal. *Nava*-yauvana: Karmīs cannot understand. Prabhupāda: There is a story like this. A man is sitting. His friend came, "Why you are sitting idly?" "What shall I do?" "Work." "Why shall I work?" "You'll get money." "What shall I do with the money?" "Then you'll be able to sit peacefully and eat." "I'm doing that. I'm already doing that." I'm peacefully sitting and eating. Why shall I go and work? If that is the ultimate end, that I shall peacefully sit down and eat, I am doing that. Why shall I go and work? Harikeśa: What about when it gets cold? Prabhupāda: That you again "if." You are bringing some condition. For the present time, sitting very peacefully and haven't got to work. Why you are insisting me to work? If this is the goal, to sit peacefully and eat, I'm doing that. Hari-śauri: But I want more than that; it's boring. I want more. Prabhupāda: Boring? Hari-śauri: It's very boring just to sit and eat all the time. Prabhupāda: No, no, that boring for the rascal. Otherwise, one who is intelligent, he's enjoying. Harikeśa: Yes, but I mean definitely it will get cold. There's no question that "maybe if." It definitely it will get cold. Prabhupāda: Cold you will get both ways, whether you work or not. Harikeśa: No, no, because when I work I have a nice house and I got a heater, then it's warm. If I didn't work I wouldn't have my heater, and it gets to be zero... Prabhupāda: And when there will be no electricity, you will be frozen. Harikeśa: Well, I have my gas heater. *Nava*-yauvana: We have experience sometimes the heater breaks and there's even more anxiety. Hari-śauri: Then there's always a coal fire as well. Prabhupāda: Such kind of argument can be counteracted by so many other argument. Harikeśa: We just see practically that we're enjoying life. We can't... Prabhupāda: Enjoy life means... Even the industrialists, they go to the remote village and have a peaceful house there. That is the anxiety, how I shall live peacefully. The poorer class, the workers, they live in the city, and the capitalist, he goes to a different place. Jñānagamya: Vṛndāvana, they came to Vṛndāvana, those Indian industrialists. They were so nervous, always like this, "Who is here? Who is also here? Should I talk to him about business." Very nervous. Hari-śauri: But variety is the spice of life. Prabhupāda: Variety, there are qualities of varieties. Just like we enjoy varieties prasādam, and there is variety in the brothel also. Two qualities of variety. Variety is good, that's all right. Hari-śauri: Well, sometimes we want to sit in a garden like this and sometimes we like to be inside, and other times we like to go out to the movies. *Prabhupāda: I don't go out. We do not go to the movies or to the restaurant. It is different taste. Therefore it is calculated three kinds of men*-sāttvika, rājasika, tāmasika-their tendencies are different. *Nava*-yauvana: Karmīs can't understand why a devotee doesn't want to go to the cinema. *Prabhupāda: So many things*-they do not smoke, they do not drink, they do not go to cinema. Hari-śauri: We're as good as dead. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: What happens with all these people who, like for example, myself, I can't live on a farm? Prabhupāda: Eh? Harikeśa: I can't live on a farm. Prabhupāda: That does not make you, what is called, unfit. You can do something like that. Harikeśa: I mean I was born in a city, raised in a city, and feel very good when I'm in a city, but when I'm on a farm, I'm very disturbed. *Prabhupāda: Rājasika, you have got rājasika. So that means your mode of nature is rājasika. There are three kinds of*-sāttvika, rājasika, tāmasika. Harikeśa: But what are we going to do with all these kind of people? Prabhupāda: That is already there, three kinds of propensities. Sāttvika, rājasika, tāmasika. So you belong to the rājasika, that's all. So it can be conquered by sāttvika. Hari-śauri: So we should all aim towards leaving the cities. If everyone becomes sāttvika... Prabhupāda: That tendency is there, why these bungalows are here? They do not like to live in the city. They are paying so high rent. Why? The inner tendency is to live like this, with trees, with lawn. (to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, thank you. (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 12, 1976, Tehran Prabhupāda: I can give you formula. That toothpaste formula, that is my invention. It's working very nicely. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can we have it? What if we can't find nim leaves here? Prabhupāda: No, we can supply nim leaves from India, any amount, from Vṛndāvana. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Nim leaves from Vṛndāvana is unique, nobody can imitate us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nim leaves we can export from India. In the United Provinces there is ample nim trees. That time I shall give you instruction also. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will start, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is better than..., this is easier than restaurant. Prabhupāda: Now you consider amongst yourselves. I have no difficulty, I have given direction, "Do like that." Now what you'll do, that is up to you. So far giving help and directions, that you will get perfect, there is no doubt about it. That you will get. How to manage, how to get ingredients, everything you'll get. Because I have to say only, you have to do. That's all. So that will be all right. Now decide. That will be very nice or very effective. Whatever we shall prepare, it will be very effective. So if there is market, why not? Introduce. I think there will be market because this country is undeveloped. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will manage it, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There will be plenty of market. Prabhupāda: We require all these things. The more they become civilized, the more they require medicine and all these things. So you decide. I am so far giving instruction and help, and that will be available. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have been, Śrīla Prabhupāda, talking and thinking about it amongst ourselves, that now that we have this propensity to be in business, instead of working for karmīs we should have our own business. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So it's much better... If devotees are in charge, then the karmīs can work for us and they can become devotees. But if the karmīs are in charge... Prabhupāda: We are. Our society, it is not that we are simply sannyāsīs. We have got brahmacārīs, we have got gṛhasthas. So gṛhasthas should be provided with some profession, business, so that they can earn very nicely. That is good idea. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He has so much propensity to become engaged in these things, I have the propensity, all the devotees have the propensity. We can... Prabhupāda: So you make your formula, I mean to say, plan and scheme. So far how to do it, that instruction I give. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now in this house you will see, this house, the plan is that the house, the first floor will be kitchen, restaurant and a store. A little section for store. Store will have Your Divine Grace's books, records, tapes, japa*-mālā and some sweets, prasādam that is made to go, to sell. Prabhupāda: Who made sandeśa? It was very nice. *Hari-śauri: Nava*-yauvana's wife, Mañjarī. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, she can make sandeśa. And some of these products also can be stocked there. Once we start and it is successful, then we can grow. Prabhupāda: He knows how to make kacuri. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You like him to stay here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, I don't say, but he can give you instruction. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So if you will give us the formulas, we can learn from him the formulas for toothpaste? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: For toothpaste and what else? Prabhupāda: You remember it? Harikeśa: Hm... Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, exactly? Prabhupāda: But toothpaste, you require collapsible tube. Harikeśa: It was better in the bottles. In a tube it just doesn't come out. Prabhupāda: No, that will come out. The powder must be made very fine. Otherwise, it will not come out. Hari-śauri: If it's pulverized with a machine it comes out. Harikeśa: Yes, if there's a machine it would be nice. Prabhupāda: Very fine powder. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What about if we served it in a different shape. Tube is common. If we make it a little different it would be more attractive. Prabhupāda: That you have to think, how it will be attractive here. Otherwise paste, put into the collapsible tube, then it becomes complete. The formula is there and everything. You don't take... Simply it has to be made very fine pulverized. Harikeśa: And it lasts for a long time, because the toothpaste Prabhupāda is using now I made in last December, last December. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Are you happy with it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is it good? He made it good? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, it was not made good because... It is not his fault, the powder was not very fine. But it will be better, nice, when the powders are very, very finely pulverized. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What other products do you recommend? Prabhupāda: That you want me I shall give you. Hari-śauri: The one on leg that you put that nim oil. That cleared up that cut in two days. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is that nim ointment? Harikeśa: He was in a car accident in Mauritius, and he had a big cut on his leg, and when Prabhupāda invented this medicine, cured it in two days. Prabhupāda: Any cut, any ulcer, it is very... Ātreya Ṛṣi: Even for ulcer? Prabhupāda: No, any... Ātreya Ṛṣi: Oh, cut, ulceration, cut. How much royalty do we pay you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Fifty percent. Hari-śauri: It's gone a little moldy on the top again. Underneath it's all right, though. Prabhupāda: No, we shall do it nicely. Harikeśa: This looks different. Ātreya Ṛṣi: What is this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Salt? Prabhupāda: No, it is simply nim leaf. Hari-śauri: Nim leaf boiled in ghee. Harikeśa: This is not the same. Prabhupāda: It was not properly done. I asked Pālikā. Harikeśa: It was very good that other time. It was completely merged in the ghee and it was very nice. I cooked it for three hours. Prabhupāda: The water portion should be abolished. Then it will go not bad. Ātreya Ṛṣi: If the water portion is? Hari-śauri: Abolished. Harikeśa: The secret is cooking it for a long time. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, yes, of course, it should be dry. Then it won't go bad. Prabhupāda: If the water portion remains, it will decompose. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Do you have to use ghee? Can't we use some oil? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you can use vaseline. Ghee is better, but vaseline you can use. Vaseline is available, I think you are not manufacturing vaseline? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Iran. *Prabhupāda: Because vaseline is one of the by*-products of petrol. Harikeśa: They have olive oil here. Prabhupāda: No olive oil. Vaseline will be very cheap here. And you can, if you want to engage him, if he wants to do something, that Praṇava, let him supply nim leaves, dry, from Vṛndāvana. If he actually wants some money, let him do some business. Let him collect all nim leaves and give him twenty percent profit. Suppose he collects nim, collects and dry, and then packs it and dispatch. The cost of... Ātreya Ṛṣi: The cost of dispatching, we give him twenty percent for him. Prabhupāda: Some arrangement he may make some profit. Honest business. Not that by cheating get something. That is not good. If he wants money, let him take. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Have you had your massage, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, I'll come back and do. Hari-śauri: We have to leave soon. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have to leave soon, in fifteen minutes. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can go. Or you can leave ten minutes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So we can get ready to go. And we can get these formulas from you later. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Many things toilet and medicines and... We can give. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will like that very much. Prabhupāda: Let them be engaged in different ways and earn some money. This incense I taught Gargamuni first. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, this is better than incense. You teach us the incense also, everything. We will do it. Prabhupāda: Incense, I first of all taught Gargamuni, the starting was there in New York. Do you know that? And now it has developed very nice. Pradyumna: The largest in the world. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like us to... We have, this temple has some dakṣiṇā for you. How would you like me to do it? Today is Thursday. Would you like it in what form? Would you like us to invest it for you here, or give you the cash? *Prabhupāda: If you give me the interest, eighteen percent, I'll utilize it for Māyāpura*-Vṛndāvana. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I shall... Yes, that's fine. Prabhupāda: No, purchase one small book, like passbook. So you become my banker, I deposit with you. You receive it and send the interest, that's all. I make you banker. That's all. There is no botheration. You become banker, you send the interest. Now how you are utilizing, you know, I don't bother. But if I get the interest, then I think it is all right. What is it? Is it all right? Simple? So just purchase one small passbook. And... You have got that passbook? Or you...? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, I know. I shall do it. I will do it. We will put in this bankbook, your account, two thousand dollars now, today. Prabhupāda: And I'll give you some foreign exchange, give him. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Whatever you give, I will put in that account. Prabhupāda: Give that cash money. Hari-śauri: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And you will get eighteen percent interest. You want it on a monthly, yearly, how do you like? Prabhupāda: Monthly, no year. Harikeśa: Those traveler's checks there? Prabhupāda: Traveler's check I'll keep now. It may be required. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And monthly to India or to America? Prabhupāda: India or America. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because America is cheaper, because if I send it to India, if small amounts go... Prabhupāda: So you send to America. Ātreya Ṛṣi: To America is all right? I send it every month to Rāmeśvara. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles, yes. For deposit in account number I will give you. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We will go and we will take care of all this this afternoon. *Prabhupāda: All right, keep it now, we are going. We shall come back and then later on. After coming back we shall give him. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yat dadāsi tat kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam. [break] Harikeśa: It took two weeks to make. Prabhupāda: Two weeks? Why? Because the ingredients were not...? Harikeśa: No, because your mustard oil, no one liked to taste it, and then you changed it to mustard seeds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mustard seed also can be exported from India. In the Mathurā district there is sufficient mustard seed. Hari-śauri: Yellow mustard seeds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mustard seeds and instead of chalk powder we mix nim powder. Mustard seed, nim powder. Harikeśa: Calcium carbonate. Prabhupāda: And salt. Calcium carbonate means...? Oh, calcium, instead of calcium carbonate, let it be nim. It will be very effective. Harikeśa: I think the taste will be horrible. Prabhupāda: Yes, taste will be... (laughter) Harikeśa: No one will use it. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... Harikeśa: I saw they make this other toothpaste with sucrose. The second biggest ingredient is sucrose on the karmī toothpaste. Prabhupāda: Sucrose? What is that sucrose? Harikeśa: Sucrose, you know, sucrose and glucose and lactose, those sugars. They use sugar powder, sucrose. Prabhupāda: Oh, sucrose, yes. Saccharin and sucrose. Saccharin is sugar product. Harikeśa: We tried that too the first time, with those... Prabhupāda: No, that is no good. Harikeśa: That was not good. Prabhupāda: Salt is available very easily. Harikeśa: And they use hard soap powder in these powdered ones. We tried that first with the hard soap powder? They use that also. Prabhupāda: No, it is it (indistinct), we shouldn't do it. Only simple three things, that's all. That is good. That has come out. Harikeśa: Menthol, pine oil, camphor, oil of wintergreen, glycerin, mustard powder, powdered salt and calcium carbonate. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Good memory, yes, these are the things. Hari-śauri: You put all that in the last batch? Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: In Durban, I think. Hari-śauri: In Bombay we made the last one. Harikeśa: No, that big batch last I made in Sanand. When you went to that Sanand above Ahmedabad, where that king had his palace, we stayed in that palace. That's when I made that big batch. But first it was developed in Durban. *Prabhupāda: Durban, yes. Because there was no possibility of using (indistinct*-word for stick toothbrush). My teeth broken, and it became painful, it was not working. Therefore I invented. But it is effective. Harikeśa: You said on account of this toothpaste... Your teeth were so rotten they want to fall out, but the toothpaste won't allow them. *Prabhupāda: Yes, actually my teeth have gone all bad. It is useless. But on account of this toothpaste it is still working. (laughs) Otherwise, according to dental science, it has to be extracted. It is no other remedy. If you go to a dentist, immediately he will say, "Extract all this and have a new set, artificial." That is, I know that. But I don't want to extract. As far as possible, use them and let them fall out automatically, as they have already fallen out so many. Fifty percent already fallen out, and twenty*-five percent are shaking, and still I am eating. Otherwise, according to the dental science, I should not eat any salt. In Bengal there is a word that when teeth is rot, then your eating is gone. You cannot digest, you cannot eat. It is not... If the foodstuff is not properly chewed, it causes digestive disturbance. And digestive disturbance means so many diseases. This coughing is due to digestive disturbance. I know that. Hari-śauri: That's because liver's not working? *Prabhupāda: No. Yes. It is old man's disease. Liver doesn't work nicely, teeth does not work nicely, there is susceptibility to cold. Old age. All my young friends, they have all died. Nobody's living. One or two still. You know that Dinanath came? I think you know. He's living. He's seventy*-five, seventy-six. Little younger than me. Hari-śauri: Who's that? Harikeśa: Dinanath Mishra in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: One man, a case pleader. Hari-śauri: That very thin man? Oh, I know. Yes. He was very sick actually when we were there. Prabhupāda: Yes, he was sick. He was half dead. Hari-śauri: What about those people when we went back to where you used to live? When we came back from Māyāpura and we went out that night to, what they called? Your old friend's house? Prabhupāda: Oh, Mulliks. Hari-śauri: Mulliks. Prabhupāda: They are just like my younger brothers. Their elder brothers were contemporaries. They are all died. Hari-śauri: Finished. *Prabhupāda: They are younger. They are all my childhood playmates. Their older brothers, the eldest one was my very, very intimate friend, Siddheshvar Mullik. We used to ride on the same perambulator when we were three, four years old. And Ratha*-yātrā ceremony was performed with all these guests. They were about, in our neighborhood there were four, five houses. So all the children of the same age, I was the leader. (laughs) Yes. I organized this Ratha-yātrā. I was performing Rādhāṣṭamī and Janmāṣṭamī, and I was learning how to dress the Rādhā-Govinda. Yes. Hari-śauri: You used to go in and dress Them? Prabhupāda: It is, actually, it was our house. Just three, four house after. *Hari-śauri: Rādhā*-Govinda were the only Deities in the neighborhood? *Prabhupāda: No, only Deity, yes. And Rādhā*-Govinda has big property. In front of the Deity house there is a very big building. Hari-śauri: Just across the road? That one? Prabhupāda: Yes, just opposite. That is His building. Very good income. Besides that, He has many other lands. They have got very good income. Hari-śauri: They're very well looked after. Prabhupāda: Yes. They're one of the oldest aristocratic families of Calcutta, Mulliks. The whole, from Howrah Bridge up to that street, all belongs to their property. Very rich men. Hari-śauri: Now they don't own so much. Prabhupāda: No, the Deity has got income. So they have got terms for worshiping the Deity. So one who gets the term for worshiping, he takes the income. Hari-śauri: Oh, in the family members. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but practically that is now their income. The more one gets the worshiping term longer, he gets more income. (laughs) The Deity has got very, very good income. All the temples in India... Just like I am trying to make some fund for Vṛndāvana and Māyāpura. Even no contribution comes, it will go on. The sevā*-pūjā will not stop for want of money. So there will be no want of money. Still, I must make some provision, by the income the sevā-pūjā will go on. Contribution may come or not. That provision should be made. Now in Vṛndāvana Akṣayānanda is collecting in so many ways. Suppose nobody collects. That does not mean this temple will be closed. It must go on. So I am trying to make some provision from that bank interest. At least five to ten thousand rupees so that the Deity worship will not be stopped. That is the system in all Indian temples. It must go on, nitya-sevā. It must go on. These big, big temple in Vṛndāvana, they have got such arrangement. Otherwise how it is going on for five hundred, six hundred years? They have very good income. Govindajī has got eighteen thousand rupees monthly income. That is... He's the richest Deity in Vṛndāvana. And Raṅganātha is tenant of Govindajī. Land is taken from Govindajī, and Raṅganātha's temple is constructed. The Raṅganātha's temple management pays the rent. So Govindajī is the landlord and Raṅganāthajī is tenant. Raṅganāthajī is Rāmānuja-sampradāya, Govindajī is Gauḍīya-sampradāya. (laughter) So Rāmānuja-sampradāya is the tenant of Gauḍīya-sampradāya. [break] No, as many as we want. Why? (end) *Morning Walk, House Visit, Evening Darçana-*-August 12, 1976, Tehran Prabhupāda: (in car) ...that is Kṛṣṇa's mercy, but I am not that devotee, you are devotee. It is a fact, Kṛṣṇa supplies everything to the devotee's comfort. Dayānanda: Left or right? Right? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, in Vaiṣṇava temples, āśramas, do spiritual masters ever use the stick to rascal disciples? Prabhupāda: No. (laughs) Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is not customary at all? Prabhupāda: It is used for my personal friend.(?) Ātreya Ṛṣi: But it would be nice, Śrīla Prabhupāda, once in awhile... Prabhupāda: No. There was devotee, Nityānanda's contemporary, he used to whip, and his whipping means as soon as he whips, the man becomes a devotee. Prabhupāda: You are not going to install Deity? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Not here. Prabhupāda: Oh, not here. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The Deity will be installed in the other place. Prabhupāda: Oh, this is only for restaurant. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Which the company is buying. There is... Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is all right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And the restaurant will be just downstairs. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Brahmacārī will be upstairs. Householders live in the other place, and the Deity will be there. Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Very good explanation(?). But people in this land, they will come for a restaurant, customer? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, this is very good neighborhood. Prabhupāda: As soon as they understand, they will come. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: For restaurant, very nice. (some conversing as lady shows them through) Dayānanda: Very nice kitchen, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's a good size kitchen. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That kitchen can be extended. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Dayānanda: An adjoining room for storage. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Would you like one of these peaches, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Yes, that's right, that's right. Would you prefer an orange? Can I skin this? Hari-śauri: I can cut an orange. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Orange? Prabhupāda: Yes. Cut into pieces, give me. Give me little. Pradyumna: Bitter skin. Sometimes there are amoebas on the outside. *Nava*-yauvana: The location is very central. In the city it's very central. (end) *Arrival Conversation-*-August 13, 1976, Bombay *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole thing is being done in one week. I just got the whole text from Nirañjana on Sunday from England. We've got it composed, it is going into printing tomorrow, it will be ready by Vyāsa*-Pūjā. It's a Hindi Back to Godhead on Janmāṣṭamī... Prabhupāda: Nirañjana is helping to translate it? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, and he's the most reliable. The others I find are not reliable. Even with Yaśomatīnandana, I give him a book, it gets stuck for three months. But now we are moving very fast. The first Hindi Back to Godhead we printed up forty*-five thousand, it is sold. So I'm reprinting thirty thousand more in Delhi, and in Bombay, we are producing a new Back to Godhead with thirty thousand first print. Forty-five thousand of first printing is almost sold. People can't believe it. Even Hitsharan Sharma couldn't believe it that we distributed forty-five thousand Hindi magazines in two months. Prabhupāda: We are distributing millions in English. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We got a new import permit to import books for five lakhs. I think I wrote that to you. And also the government is going to let us... Prabhupāda: I saw your wife in New York. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. She's in Dallas now. Also the government is going to give us permission to import paper now, and I have already arranged to get samples of Japanese paper. So this will make our quality very good. The government likes our printing in India. So that's why they gave me this new license. Because I said, "As we import and sell, we print more in India," so they like that. Prabhupāda: What is the temperature here? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Temperature? What's the temperature about? Twenty*-nine degrees centigrade. *Driver: It is about ninety*-five. Ninety, ninety-five. *Hari-śauri: Ninety*-five! Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: How was it in Iran? Hari-śauri: Nice. Prabhupāda: Iran night, very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was there a year ago. I've gone to Tehran. Prabhupāda: In the morning also it is very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You go on the morning walk now, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard? Prabhupāda: No, not... Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda can't climb up stairs. Once he goes upstairs then he'll stay. Prabhupāda: What about the lift here? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The lift will not be ready till... Your apartment will not be ready till December or January. They can't do it any sooner. Driver: If Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to stay somewhere else, we can find out from people where, who have got lift. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise I was thinking, we have a vacant old flat of Menon on the ground floor. I discussed it with Girirāja, and I just wanted to, I was waiting for you. If you like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can convert. That is construction office. We can move the construction office somewhere else, and we can give you that whole flat on the ground floor. Girirāja and I both thought it was a good idea, but I just wanted your approval. We can do that in half a day. It is right on the ground floor. Hari-śauri: That would be very nice. Prabhupāda: Small. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but it is on the ground floor. That's the only advantage. In Vṛndāvana the guesthouse is all completely renovated. S. K. Samani came from Bombay, I showed him around Vṛndāvana, and he booked thirty rooms for ten days in September and October. Oh, it's first class. Prabhupāda: Mr. S. K. Samani? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: S. K. Samani, yes, Shri Krishna Samani. He liked it very much. Now the government has kept two policemen outside our Vṛndāvana temple to control the traffic, there is so much traffic. The policemen told me that we get even more people than Bankibihārī. But I don't think it's a fact, but the policemen say the crowd is bigger than Bankibihārī. Driver: Should I take it around the gate? (conversation in Hindi) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also a lot of people are coming to the Delhi temple. The Maharani of Jaipur comes every second day. She is the daughter*-in-law of the Maharani Gayatridevi. Everyone, lot of, many people are coming every day to our temple in Delhi. Prabhupāda: What about Hyderabad? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hyderabad will be ready, I was there last week. It will be ready in time. The chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is coming as the chief guest on the day the temple will be opened. Driver: We are getting very good bungalow in Ahmedabad. Six bedroom with six baths, all marble. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we don't have any devotees there. What will we do? Driver: There are eight devotees at least. They have to vacate in any case. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...newsstands also. Yaśomatīnandana has made some arrangement with some distributor. Prabhupāda: Newsstand? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, to news, where they sell newspapers and all. *Driver: They distribute about fifteen hundred on Ratha*-yātrā day. Prabhupāda: Fifteen hundred on? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ratha*-yātrā in Ahmedabad. Now we are distributing these books for one rupee each or 1.50 in Vṛndāvana because now we've got the cost of printing down to sixty paisa... *Prabhupāda: Our Ratha*-yātrā in New York was very successful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I saw in the New York Times. I went to the American Embassy in Delhi and I saw "East Meets West" that was the heading, and there were picture, and Daily News had it on the first page. Hari-śauri: Middle page. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: First page. Hari-śauri: Center pages. Prabhupāda: Three chariots, very gorgeous. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's due to your causeless mercy this is spreading everywhere. There were hundreds of orders from libraries. Actually we cannot even keep up, there are so many orders coming. Every order has been dispatched, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There's not one order outstanding, but we are getting lot of correspondence, everything. And I spoke to Rāmeśvara two nights ago, he's shipping the books right away. Because we only got the sea. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, first our application for import of books was rejected. Then I went and met this very big man and preached to him. So now he's become a devotee and he said, "You just come to me. I'll give you in one day whatever you want." Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So he gave the import license for five lakhs in one day he gave, and he also told me how to import paper. Driver: From the other side? Port number five? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, doesn't matter, anywhere. He also told us how to import paper. Prabhupāda: Gave some hint. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I gave him some books. I meet him regularly now when I meet him. He'll come to see you in Delhi he said. He's the Joint Chief Controller of Imports and Exports, very high position. So he has the final authority for giving licenses up to one lakh. He said he could give it to us. Prabhupāda: What is the political position here? [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...big celebration here starting tomorrow to the 18th. P. K. Savant, he came to see you last year, the president of Maharastra Pradesh Congress Committee, he was the chief guest. Mr. Pagay, another he is the minister from Maharastra, he's also coming. Very big program. It's being advertised all over Bombay. Prabhupāda: So raining stopped here? Driver: For three days stopped, sir. Otherwise, it was very heavy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's monsoon, it will still rain. Prabhupāda: Throughout whole Europe there is not a drop of water. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They're getting suffering now. Prabhupāda: All, no cloud. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In France I read in the paper that the river was the lowest... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...premse kaho śrī*-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-prabhu-nityānanda (prema-dhvani etc.) Thank you very much. Devotee: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So when you have come? Everything all right? Hari-śauri: Hyderabad will be complete. Prabhupāda: If there is any prasāda to distribute? Hari-śauri: Is there any prasāda to distribute? Devotee: It's coming. Prabhupāda: You are taking so much trouble. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ashnaniji's helping us a lot now. Prabhupāda: He is the cause of this site. Unless he would not help, it was practically lost. I know that. Two, three hours how we finished that sales agreement. Ashnaniji: Customs did not open anyway. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. We are always traveling, they should give us some concession. Every time we get checked. Actually, the government should have given us the best facilities because I am distributing India's culture all over the world. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, I am not receiving encouragement from the leaders and the authorities. This is India's glory. History will say. (prasāda arrives) Give it, yes, you can... Hari-śauri: Pass it out. Prabhupāda: All people are responding all over the world. They... Money, men, strength, everything they are supplying. But we are not getting very good encouragement from India. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that every Indian should become guru and preach the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Nitāi, when you have come? Nitāi: I came just two days ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Everything is all right? Nitāi: Yes, everything is fine. Prabhupāda: So, now you can disperse. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Take prasāda and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. And we have now nice buildings. Live there peacefully, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bas. This is my success. If I see that you are living very nicely, chanting very nicely, then all my labor is successful. Hari-śauri: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So if all the devotees would like to leave now, then Prabhupāda can rest a little bit from traveling. Harikeśa: You can distribute prasāda in the hall. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are older than me. Older man: Your blessings. Prabhupāda: Live peacefully, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is for you, so many buildings. Let devotees come, live here peacefully, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That I want. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a lot of devotees visiting Bombay. Prabhupāda: How many you are housing? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: On a permanent basis about forty, but there are a few from different centers. Prabhupāda: Where you have received this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ṛṣabhadeva, president of Spiritual Sky Products. Prabhupāda: President of? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Spiritual Sky in Los Angeles. He has come on a business trip. They were trying to negotiate buying incense sticks from Mysore, sandalwood, and Bangalore. So they are... Did you get those color proofs I sent you of Bhāgavata? Did you like? It's coming out quite nicely. Prabhupāda: Not as good, not as good as foreign. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not as good as foreign? That is... But we are going to be printing the softbound book for seven rupees. Prabhupāda: All right, we shall talk later on. Now let me... Hari-śauri: Maybe somebody could take those flowers and put them in vases. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All the pictures have a garland. Distribute it? Prabhupāda: So you have come, it is good. Pālikā: Would you like to take some fruit now? Prabhupāda: I'll tell you. Not now. Harikeśa: Haribol. (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: Everything came in and nothing is on any passport. Prabhupāda: All right, that's all right. Harikeśa: Oh, you had the key. Does the dictaphone work? All right, you take the keys back, the dictaphone. Hari-śauri: (indistinct) Harikeśa: Just one second. If you can open it I can, or just pass it to me and I'll open it. Prabhupāda: That projector also there? Harikeśa: Projector? Prabhupāda: No, there was no projector. Hari-śauri: No, that was Ātreya Ṛṣi's. Harikeśa: Yes, we should have many of those in India. They're so marvelous. Hari-śauri: This is a desk. Harikeśa: Do you have the almirah key? Hari-śauri: This is almirah. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda's bedroom almirah somehow got out here, or is that the almirah? Prabhupāda: Which almirah? Which almirah? Hari-śauri: The sitting room it says, this one I think. Maybe it's not. Harikeśa: I can go check on that. Hari-śauri: They weren't labeled when we were here, they were labeled a long time afterwards. Harikeśa: This is not for this. Hari-śauri: This is the cash box. Harikeśa: This one has two keys, Hari-śauri. They say "one" and "two." This is not it. This is the key for the inside. This is not this key. Hari-śauri: It's this one. They all fell off the hoop. Harikeśa: Oh, do you have the key to these two almirahs? Hari-śauri: There's some keys that we didn't know where they fit. Prabhupāda: So, how are you? Girirāja: Fine. Prabhupāda: Everything is going? Girirāja: Yes, very nicely. Prabhupāda: And the lift is... Oh! Thank you. Lift is not available. Hari-śauri: They're all here now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There was one key that dropped off the hoop. There's one, two, and the small cash box inside. Harikeśa: This is the cash box key. For this box. Hari-śauri: What are these keys? This, this... Prabhupāda: Oh, how he can know? Harikeśa: He had one key I think for one of these. Prabhupāda: Keep in the bag everything. Hari-śauri: Yes, they're all in the bag there somewhere. A couple weren't labeled. This is here. Prabhupāda: Everything all right? Indian man: Very comfortable journey? Prabhupāda: (chuckles) There was no water. All over Europe there is no cloud. No water. Girirāja: No water? Prabhupāda: No water. Harikeśa: Big drought. They just had to close the factories in Wales because there's no water now. Girirāja: It's a reaction to their sinful activities. Prabhupāda: It will be increasing throughout the whole world. Anāvṛṣṭi. Hari-śauri: They think it's just happening by chance. *Prabhupāda: Godless civilization, sinful activities. The reaction will increase, no rainfall, scarcity of foodgrains, and government taxes. These are written in Bhāgavata. Anāvṛṣṭi*-durbhikṣa... Government will exact tax more. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a scientific study done by the CIA in America, this study done by the CIA on world weather conditions. And they concluded that the world weather conditions only get worse and worse. There's going to be drought every three, four years, and so there will not be food production. Prabhupāda: It is predicted in the Bhāgavata five thousand years ago. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They're having earthquakes in China now. Hari-śauri: Yes, big ones. They say a million people died in the last one. Prabhupāda: You have got the keys for that? Hari-śauri: I think they're... That last set that I gave you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? These, yes. Prabhupāda: Print books many, as good as possible. Let us do our duty. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have three small Hindi books in production, plus as I said, Hindi Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: This silver loṭā has become very black. You can get it polished. Prabhupāda: See if there is... Hari-śauri: If there's? Prabhupāda: If there is worms. Hari-śauri: I was looking in the corner where some spiders have been, and there's some signs again of worms. Some powdered remains and things like that. So I think if we do it once more then it should be finished. Indian boy: I come from Tanzania, Bazalof. Hari-śauri: That's in Africa. Indian boy: Yes. And we are a life member of ISKCON. You know Navayogendra dāsa of Nairobi? Now he is transferred in Mombassa. Prabhupāda: Navayogendra, yes. Indian boy: Yes, he came there between 1975 or 1974 and he made us the member. He's now in Mombassa. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. So when you have come here? Hari-śauri: When have you come here? Indian boy: Here? We just came for a holiday trip. Prabhupāda: Where you are staying? Indian boy: In Malat.(?) Prabhupāda: So come tomorrow at five. Indian boy: At five. Do you have the Hare Kṛṣṇa Cookbook? Prabhupāda: Ask... Hari-śauri: If you like, go out there now and see Girirāja, he's the president, he'll fix you up. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Get some prasāda when you go. Indian boy: Yes. Prabhupāda: So cleanse this. Hari-śauri: This spittoon? Very odd. They've put one here actually. This is the bathing loṭā, but there's one here also. Oh, they used this for bathing your feet. This is a new loṭā for drinking until I'll clean this silver one. Prabhupāda: This is spittoon? Hari-śauri: Yes. (long pause) Prabhupāda: So? What fruit you have got? Hari-śauri: I'll go check. Prabhupāda: Ask somebody to call Saurabha. Pālikā: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is this? Pālikā: Some sweet one girl has made here. Prabhupāda: Not everyone should make. She is initiated? Pālikā: Yes. I will generally make, but I just arrived today so there was not time. (end) *Evening Darçana-*-August 14, 1976, Bombay Guest (Indian man): ...(indistinct) my wife (indistinct). Maybe [break] *Prabhupāda: ...enter the Jagannātha temple, He immediately fainted. "So, here is My Lord, Kṛṣṇa." When the artist will see, "What He has seen? Old figure, not very beautiful, and this man has fainted." Actually there is nothing so extraordinary that one should faint but we see practically that Caitanya Mahāprabhu fainted, "Here is My Lord." It is the question of vision. Premāñjana*-cchurita bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. [At this point a tik-tik lizard makes his sound] It is also confirmed. One, that is called (indistinct), one who is trained up to see God, he can see. (indistinct) Premāñjana-cchurita bhakti-vilocanena. Just like sometimes we cannot see properly if there is, what is called... Guest: Cataract. Prabhupāda: No, no. That ointment. Guest: Kajjal. *Prabhupāda: Kajjal we say, English what do you say? (indistinct*-back and forth over the English) Premāñjana-cchur..., añjana means that. Vasughoṣa: Añjana, salve, salve. Prabhupāda: There is English proper word. Vasughoṣa: "Tinge the eyes with the salve of love." Prabhupāda: Salve, yes. That is the word, salve. The salve of love. One who has painted the eyes with salve of love, he gets it. *Guest (1) (Indian man): But sir, there will only be a few who can reach that stage, but the down*-trodden... Prabhupāda: That's a fact, Guest (1): Well, that I agree. It is not possible to make men devotees or religious by showing films. But at least those who cannot read our books, to whom individually we cannot reach in spite of our... Prabhupāda: But they know, they hear. They hear. There are different processes. They know Kṛṣṇa (indistinct). Just like in India the Janmāṣṭamī is coming, I think cent percent houses will observe Janmāṣṭamī. There is no doubt about it. Either he's a devotee of Kṛṣṇa or not, even some Muhammadans are there. I know that. Guest (1): Yes, Parsees, Muhammadans, (indistinct)... Prabhupāda: They observe. Guest (1): They observe it. Prabhupāda: So to some extent they have got some affection for Kṛṣṇa but not to that extent. They, there maybe one man may seeing Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. *Yaśomatīnandana: I think generally people are more attracted to our society by the behavior of devotees rather than philosophy, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. Philosophy is there but generally when they see the devotees, and by association, purification comes. As you say, there are so many books about... If the movie is made, just like our Hare Kṛṣṇa People movie, this is showing the practical example of how one can live Kṛṣṇa consciously and solve all the problems of the day*-to-day life. Such a movie can attract people to become devotees. Guest (1): For the students it is good idea. Yaśomatīnandana: For everyone. I mean... Prabhupāda: Those who cannot read the book, they are still better. Those who can read the book, they are still more dangerous. Guest (1): They will misinterpret the whole thing. They will misrepresent, the danger is still more there. It is rather more with the educated people that the danger is there than the uneducated. But to reach the uneducated we have, I was thinking this is a better media. This is one of the medias perhaps, I wouldn't say better. Perhaps one of the medias by which we can reach them in a larger crowd. Guest (2): But not in the way that the films are made. Guest (1): No, that is not say. I don't want. I could produce... Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa consciousness is developed when one practices according to the prescribed method, Guest (3): But is it not possible that we (indistinct) name of society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness and then they will be attracted more and more and they will... Prabhupāda: When you want to attract people you have to show that you (indistinct). Guest (4): There are good persons who... Prabhupāda: That good person is very, very rare. I... [break] ...education point of view. Guest: Yes sir. Prabhupāda: Unless one is put into practice, it is not possible. That is Vedic culture. From the beginning of life students were sent to gurukula for practicing how to become brahmacārī. That training (indistinct). Then they are trained as gṛhastha, then vānaprastha, and ultimately sannyāsa, completely renounced. Immediately, a person cannot be renounced, therefore gradually, step by step. So unless there is proper training... Now just like we are selling millions copies of these books, they are reading, and how many of them coming forward? So it requires training. Training is essential to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. Guest (5): I would rather request that you direct your efforts... [break] Prabhupāda: ...guru. Guest (5): Yes, sir. *Prabhupāda: If one goes in the village without any dress, without any, if he plays the part of Kṛṣṇa's and somebody plays the part of Rādhārāṇī, thousands of people will come. There is no need of film. Yatra*-party. *Guest (4): Yatra*-party, sir, in the films we do those... Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, that mass of people will come. As soon as they hear that here is some play going on, Kṛṣṇa pastimes, still in India... Guest (4): It is there, sir, so what my submission was that what we do as film producers and in this line of business, that we do it more on commercial basis. Gimmicks are there, castings are there, but then it is not so much educative. What your Prabhupāda wants to convey. If, as a member of... *Prabhupāda: Education you cannot give. Education means it is practical practice. But to show something, that you can attract even without film. The yatra*-party can. *Guest (5): Yatra*-party, sir, here again the problem is India's a vast country and for that purpose if you take the whole world as a place, how many yatra-parties can you... Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, that even if you attract better crowd, what will be the benefits? Unless, because unless you come to the point of practicing, there is no profit. Who will be attracted to practice Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Nobody is... We are getting practical experience. Yaśomatīnandana: In other words just being attracted to philosophy is not sufficient. There has to be... Let them become a devotee. (indistinct remarks) *Prabhupāda: Now just like we are attempting-not only here, everywhere*-we have got nice buildings, and (indistinct) and Bombay we have constructed such big, big house so we are asking, at least those who are learned people, that if they retire, come here and practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness. No, nobody's prepared to practice. And this is a thing, without practice you cannot realize. Guest (4): That is why sir, we don't going outside. Prabhupāda: They... Guest (4): Whole thing if we make it... *Prabhupāda: Just like, practice is also not very difficult. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. So if you daily come to the temple, see the Deity, he'll have some impression and he can think of Kṛṣṇa, how He is playing flute, how He is nicely dressed, how Rādhārāṇī is standing (indistinct). Then man-manā, he can think of Kṛṣṇa very easily. So man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, and as soon as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become a devotee. Because a businessman will not spare so much time thinking (of) Kṛṣṇa, how He is playing flute. He has no business. Without being bhakta, nobody will be interested to meditate on Kṛṣṇa, how He's standing, how He's playing flute. This is bhakta's business. So anyone who is planning some trying(?) to think of Kṛṣṇa, that means automatically he becomes bhakta, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. Mad-yājī, then naturally if he becomes bhakta, naturally then why not offer to Kṛṣṇa something? Eh? Naturally. Give Him some fruits, some flower, some grains. Then Kṛṣṇa is accepting them, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. So to think of Kṛṣṇa, to become a devotee and to offer Him something, patraṁ puṣpaṁ, and offer Him obeisances, these things are development of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. And the result is, find out this verse, man-manā. Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.65], by simply executing these four principles, Kṛṣṇa assures that you will come, asaṁśayaḥ, without any doubt. Guest (4): Without (indistinct). Yaśomatīnandana: *Guests: (indistinct*-all talking together) Guest (5): ...distorting the life of Kṛṣṇa. Your divine grace the film producers are distorting all our mythological... Prabhupāda: But as soon as you say "mythology," there is no Kṛṣṇa. Guest (5): Don't say "mythology," I mean to say, my meaning was that they are distorting all our religious... They are making films, putting something, unusual things and cheap things. We can reform them and bring... Prabhupāda: No, unless (indistinct) it will not to the art. Guest (5): You can bring these (indistinct) into the art. Prabhupāda: No, that you can use your art. Guest (5): Yes. Prabhupāda: Just to give some incentive but the thing is unless we practice... Guest (5): That is the most important. Practice is of... That is the essence. Of course, that is the essence but to bring to the essence something should be (indistinct) people to the right path. Prabhupāda: It can be a part of the propaganda. Guest (5): Yes, because in India even this... Prabhupāda: But for that part of propaganda, the energy will be required (indistinct). Money energy. Who can spare good money energy? Just like Kṛṣṇa is lifting the..., you'll show in the picture. You can inform also about that lifting by talking with him. *Guest (6): No, that is no sir. What my suggestion was that we are conveying whatever is there in Bhagavad*-gītā, whatever, whatever one subject we take. While we are discussing the subject... After all, we are also all human beings... Prabhupāda: I have already said that you can take it as part. Guest (6): Same time we give some flashbacks and in with cluded(?). Prabhupāda: See the print, don't smoke, no vegetable. Guest (6): No sir, in the cinema houses they don't smoke. Prabhupāda: No, that is another thing but... Guest (6): Of course, by force it has been in... Guest (5): But even you can request also. Guest (4): We can do. I mean that is not a stage by stage... That stage can be reached, sir. They will feel that they will be ashamed to smoke when such a spiritual thing is being shown to them. Guest (6): Creating an atmosphere. Guest (4): Gradually it can... It is not a thing of a day. It will take years to come. We will have to go and my point was that... Prabhupāda: But here there is no question of begin. Hare Kṛṣṇa speculation... Guest (6): In the midst of film you can some Hare Kṛṣṇa (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Immediately. Guest (4): But we are... Suppose I am getting, sir as you say... Prabhupāda: Begins. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], if there is any other motive, then immediately there is no (indistinct). Guest (6): No (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: Ah. But everything can be dovetailed, nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta*-vairāgyam ucyate. Just like our Sītā-Rāma(?), she wants to do some display to help Kṛṣṇa movement. That is very good. Guest (7): She wanted to make the money. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (7): She wanted to make the money in this country. She would have the money, the richest artist in this country. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (7): But of course she is dedicated, as you say, without any motivation and even... *Prabhupāda: Money, money*-making isn't made, money comes. Guest (7): She has not commercialized... *Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no commercialization. Kṛṣṇa says that yad karoṣi yaj*-juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasya kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam [Bg. 9.27]. To earn money, it is not bad, but if it is given to Kṛṣṇa then it is bhakti. Guest (7): That is? Prabhupāda: Bhakti. Guest (7): Very well, she has done. *Prabhupāda: That is bhakti. Just like Arjuna, he was a soldier but he fought for Kṛṣṇa. That is a military art. For his personal, he refused, "No, no, I am not going to fight with my relatives." But when he understood that Kṛṣṇa wants it, he did it. So anything, if we dovetail with Kṛṣṇa's service, that becomes bhakti. (indistinct) Just like Kṛṣṇa is saying, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Anyone who is offering in devotion a little leaf, little flower, little water, "I accept." So Kṛṣṇa is not poverty-stricken that He wants from me something but He wants your bhakti, that you become a devotee, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. He wants that. So if the poorest man also gives something in bhakti, Kṛṣṇa accepts it. So that does not mean that I have got money, Kṛṣṇa is satisfied with little flower, so give little flower to Kṛṣṇa and enjoy this money for my sense gratification. (chuckles) That is cheating. That is cheating. Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you do, kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam, give Me that," and that is bhakti. So whatever position we may be in, if our life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa, that is bhakti. That is bhakti, it doesn't matter what is his status, qualification. Kṛṣṇa is unlimitedly everything. Just like we are spending lakhs and crores in this, for this purpose. They may say that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied with patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ [Bg. 9.26], why you are spending so much money? The idea is that when there is money, if you simply offer Kṛṣṇa patraṁ puṣpaṁ toyaṁ, that is cheating. Kṛṣṇa knows it. If you have got money, then you must spend*-a gorgeous temple for Kṛṣṇa. That is proper utilization. Not the money is kept for my separate use and Kṛṣṇa may be offered a little leaf and water. According to one's position, he must worship Kṛṣṇa. So Bombay is so rich, therefore you are collecting. Spend for this temple, spend for this temple. Otherwise it will be spent for other purposes. Money will be spent, it will not stay. Samdimite varuṅkala vinaśiniyate sati (?), money will not stay. At least at the time of my death money will remain where it is, I (indistinct). So money, so long is in my hands, let it spend for Kṛṣṇa, that is bhakti. It will be spent. How we are going to separate it? There is no excuse. So long it is in my possession, let it be spent for Kṛṣṇa, that is bhakti. Whatever I know.... We are not of that pleasure, we say, "Don't touch money." No, not only touch, we can consume any amount of money. Bring it and we spend for Kṛṣṇa. That is our proposal. We are not that so-called renouncer that as soon as there is money my face becomes deformed, my hands go this way. No, we capture immediately and spend it (indistinct) for Kṛṣṇa. Lakṣmī, Lakṣmī is to be engaged in the service of Nārāyaṇa. Just like Sītā-devi, Lakṣmī she is meant for serving Nārāyaṇa, Rāmacandra. Rāvaṇa thought that "Take away the Lakṣmī from Rāma." He became vanquished, finished. He could not keep Lakṣmī but he became vanquished because she (he) wanted to enjoy Lakṣmī without Rāma. But Lakṣmī cannot stay without Rāma, Nārāyaṇa. That is false attempt. So he became vanquished, with money, with family, everything, personal, everything. So if we want to keep Lakṣmī without Nārāyaṇa, then it will not be very good. Lakṣmī keep with Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa, there will be... (end) Prabhupāda: ...fruits, flowers, also grains, milk sufficient. In one farm, Philadelphia, they are producing so much milk that they are selling $1500 per month. And they've arranged so nice, and big tank. And the pipes regularly as they do in dairy farm. When it is not working, only hot water is passing through the pipes to keep them clean. And one cow, the milk bag is so big. He gives 102 pounds daily. Similarly, in France also we have got farm. New Orleans, Philadelphia, West Virginia, we have got four or five. Kartikeya Mahadevia: San Diego near Los Angeles. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And all of them are successful. This time I installed Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma Deity in France. Kartikeya Mahadevia: Paris, near Paris. Prabhupāda: Yes. Near Orleans. Kartikeya Mahadevia: I am thinking of going again on a world tour for my business, because we want to start some export business. So I'll start with Iran, then some other countries in Middle East, then Europe, America, Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, Mauritius, and Seychelles. I've got friends all over the places, so they will come here, and we have some export business, cloth... *Prabhupāda: Mauritius is not developed. Fiji is good. Mauritius a poor country. Fiji well*-to-do, more business, many Gujaratis. Mostly Gujaratis. Kartikeya Mahadevia: I've got somebody in New Zealand also. They are... Prabhupāda: Fiji and New Zealand... Kartikeya Mahadevia: Are very prosperous. Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got good dealings, purchase and sell. Kartikeya Mahadevia: Did you meet Mr. Patel met you in Tehran? Bokumi(?) Patel? One Indian is settled there, Patel. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kartikeya Mahadevia: They are very good friends of mine. So I am going to him only. Maitreya Muni is also there, he is also there. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. She came to see me twice, Mrs. Patel. She is very nice... Kartikeya Mahadevia: Very devoted. Her father is my father's friend, Mr. Pota. He was chairman of the Gold Control Board in India. Handlooms are working very nicely. That side of textile, which are made by hand, they are prospering like anything because... Prabhupāda: They have to remain naked. Kartikeya Mahadevia: No, khādi is available. There is no problem. Prabhupāda: Available is everything. If you pay, everything is available. Therefore they say, "If you pay, I can supply you tiger's blood." If you pay, everything is available. People have lost completely interest in spiritual life. They have lost completely. Kartikeya Mahadevia: But in the new generation we think children are more interested in religion or the bhakti than the parents. That is a new development. People who are 25 or 15, they are not. But the children who are below 10. [break] Prabhupāda: ...parents will encourage. They have no interest even. Kartikeya Mahadevia: At the school level, something can be done. *Prabhupāda: The authorities will not allow. School authorities, if you say that you want whole Gītā, (?) they will not. Mandāḥ sumanda*-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. This is Kali-yuga. All bad. And even one is interested, he is interested in something bogus. Sumanda-matayaḥ. They have manufactured a style of religious principle. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyāḥ. And all unfortunate. Indian man: Yesterday I met one life member who belongs to a very reputed family in Bombay who has donated about fifteen acres of land to Swami Cinmayananda on the Vehar Lake side. Now he has become our patron member yesterday. Prabhupāda: Behar Lake? Indian man: Vehar Lake. I think we have gone to see that big temple nearby. So this family has got about thirty, forty acres of land on (indistinct) the side. Very beautiful site. Prabhupāda: [break] ...that to know God there is no necessity of education. Indian man: No, he has got nothing. He cannot tell any children ask "What is this?" He will not be able to tell because he's not reading anything. Prabhupāda: So you don't train, how they will learn? *Indian man: No, he himself is not trained, so he cannot give any answer to the children. So I told him, "At least you get their ISKCON books. You can read now before the children can read." So he immediately signed up. He immediately paid 2222 rupees by check and he agreed "I'll read Bhagavad*-gītā and everything." Prabhupāda: We don't require much money also. We require men first. Money will come. Money is coming. I started this business forty... Indian man: Forty rupees. Prabhupāda: So there is no scarcity of money. Now our daily collection is six lakhs of rupees throughout the whole world. Indian man: Per day. Prabhupāda: Per day. So there is no scarcity of money. A business started with forty rupees bringing six lakhs daily, it is not ordinary business. Indian man: Most extraordinary. Everybody wondering that only, how it has been done. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving. I never thought my books will be sold as much. I never... Neither in the history of human society religious books sell six lakhs of rupees daily. Indian man: It has never happened. Prabhupāda: And it is selling where? Where they are not Hindus. *Indian man: Yes, all Christian countries, so*-called, Westernized countries. Prabhupāda: In the country of Hindus it is selling very less in comparison to what we are selling daily. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's hard to talk (?). Vṛndāvana also is doing six, seven hundred rupees a day in book sales. Prabhupāda: Still, six lakhs or six hundred. No, I say this is unique in the history. Now we have got... we are going to print, next our printing program... Bring it from Harikeśa. I am being surprised. Fifty thousand, one lakh, five hundred thousand each item. Kartikeya Mahadevia: Each item. In Ahmedabad there is a very religious person who was not becoming life member at all. Without seeing the balance sheet and this and that. And I told him, "What do you mean by balance sheet? Only money matters? If ten thousand foreigners are being converted and they are following this religion and this culture, everything, is it not part of the balance sheet? Only rupees and paisas you want to see, then that's a different matter. Here the people are chanting every day sixteen rounds, they have left so many bad vices, they are propagating all over the world." Then he immediately signed up. He has gone to... He might have met you in New York. Chandrakanti Ravaiwala. He was to come on 8th July in New York. He has gone to America to see his son there. Prabhupāda: In America, in New York, they have got a very... Kartikeya Mahadevia: Very good temple. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami wrote to me, my friend was also there. Mr. Patetas has met you I think. Prabhupāda: It is twelve... Kartikeya Mahadevia: Twelve stories. Prabhupāda: In the middle of downtown. Kartikeya Mahadevia: Manhattan. Prabhupāda: That Empire State Building... *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "Bhaktivedanta Book Trust tentative printing schedule: Vyāsa*-pūjā." This is first the title, then the printer and the delivery date. "July: 2,000 copies, very early August. Nectar of Instruction goes to the printer in late July, 100,000 copies to be ready by early September. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto, Part 2, reprint, goes to the printer in late July: 50,000 copies ready by September. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Eighth Canto, Part 1, goes to the printer in August: 20,000 copies ready by late September. Bhagavad-gītā reprint goes to the printer in August: 500,000 copies ready by late September. Then there's a book by one of Prabhupāda's disciples, Satsvarūpa Goswami, goes to the printer in late August. Kṛṣṇa trilogy paperback goes to the printer early September: 100,000 copies each and ready by late September. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto, Part 3, being reprinted, goes to the printer in early September: 50,000 copies ready by late October. And three catalogues go to the printer early September: 55,000 copies ready early October. There's another new book by Prabhupāda: Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers, goes to the printer in September: 100,000 copies ready late October. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Eighth Canto, Part 2, goes to the printer late September: 20,000 copies ready early November. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Second Canto, Part 2, reprint, goes to the printer late September: 20,000 copies ready November. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam First Canto, Part 1, reprint, goes to the printer in early September: 50,000 copies ready in November. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Eighth Canto, Part 3, goes to the printer in late October, ready early December: 20,000 copies. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Second Canto, Part 1, reprint, goes to the printer early November: 50,000 copies ready early December. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Ninth Canto, Part 1, goes to the printer in late November: 20,000 copies ready early January. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Ninth Canto, Part 2, goes to the printer early January: 20,000 copies ready late February. Kṛṣṇa book, hard-bound, Volume 1, reprint, goes to the printer early January: 100,000 copies ready late February. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Ninth Canto, Part 3, goes to the printer early February: 20,000 copies ready late March. Kṛṣṇa book, hardbound, Volume 2, reprint, goes to the printer in February: 100,000 copies ready early April. Kṛṣṇa book, Volume 3, reprint, goes to the printer in February: 100,000 copies ready early April." Prabhupāda: We are the biggest publisher in the world about religious and philosophical. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This schedule is only till next March. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) She is Gopāla's mother. You can distribute in your hand. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have shown this schedule to many publishers who print our books. They all say that even big publishers cannot match this schedule. [break] Prabhupāda: ...for this good land, now it is coming nice. Kartikeya Mahadevia: What is the amount of money you would like to spend on land? Because we have seen another bungalow we can talk about it. Very good land is available, 2,400 square yards. *Prabhupāda: Nobody is interested to retire from family life. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. The difficulty is they do not know their own self-interest. Svārtha-gatim. Everyone says "My self-interest first." But he does not know what is his self-interest. Na te viduḥ. Actually that is the..., because he does not know self. (Hindi) Beginning of education in Bhagavad-gītā, self-interest. Kṛṣṇa giving first lesson: aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān [Bg. 2.11]. "You are talking like a very learned man, but your action is not like learned." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. The subject matter, he was lamenting that "If I kill my brothers, my sister-in-laws will become widows and will become prostitute, and varṇa-saṅkara." "You are talking just like learned man, but on the basis of bodily relationship." So this is not the business of paṇḍita. Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. So this is the position. People are unaware of self-interest. Simply on bodily concept of life they are working day and..., whole day and night. He does not know dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. His body will change and the soul will have to accept another body. He does not know what kind of body he's going to accept. (aside:) Ask him not to talk. This is ignorance. Everywhere, all over the... Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. And there is no other institution perhaps, throughout the whole world, who is teaching about this self-interest. That is a fact. Because they do not know. What they'll teach? They do not know. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. This is Śukadeva Gosvāmī's first instruction to Mahārāja Parīkṣit. When he asked "Now I am on the verge of death. What is my duty? What shall I do? What shall I hear? What shall I...?" So he eulogized him that "You are anxious to hear." Varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ [SB 2.1.1]. Find out this verse, Second Canto, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. *Yaśomatīnandana: "Your question is glorious because it is very beneficial to all kinds of people. To hear the answer to this question is the prime subject matter of hearing, and it is approved by all transcendentalists." Purport: "Even the very question is so nice that it is the best subject matter for hearing. Simply by such questioning and hearing one can achieve the highest perfectional stage of life. Because Lord Kṛṣṇa is the original Supreme Person, any question about Him is original and perfect. Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that the highest perfection of life is to achieve the transcendental loving service of Kṛṣṇa. Because questions and answers about Kṛṣṇa elevate one to that transcendental position, the questions of Mahārāja Parīkṣit about Kṛṣṇa philosophy are greatly glorified. Mahārāja Parīkṣit wanted to absorb his mind completely in Kṛṣṇa, and such absorption can be effected simply by hearing about the uncommon activities of Kṛṣṇa. For instance, in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated that simply by understanding the transcendental nature of Lord Kṛṣṇa's appearance, disappearance, and activities, one can immediately return back to home, back to Godhead." *Prabhupāda: They do not know what is back to home, back to Godhead. Home is here in India, and again back to Godhead? And somebody say, "Here is America. It is my home." And when you say that he'll be kicked out after some years, then home finished. They are satisfied, that home finished, that's all. In such ignorance they are living. And for this home they are busy. Gṛheṣu gṛha*-medhinām. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. Gṛhamedhī, attached to this home from which he'll be kicked out. Kṛṣṇa says, "I'll take it out, everything." Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. "I come before you as death and take everything, whatever you have got." That's a fact. Everyone is accumulating, but at the time of death he'll be forced to give it up. He'll be forced to give up the body which he is maintaining so nicely. That he is experiencing. Still, apaśyatām ātma-tattvam [SB 2.1.2]. Because he does not know what is self-interest he remains ignorant and dies. This is going on. And leaders-andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Blind leaders, they are encouraging, "Yes, kick yourself. You live here as nationalist. This is your interest. And fight between one nation to one nation, one man to one man." And they have taken this is value. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. Next verse you read. Yaśomatīnandana: *Prabhupāda: See newspaper? Hundreds of thousands of news. Here they are ten pages. In foreign countries, such a big bundle. Śrotavyādīni rājendra nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ [SB 2.1.2]. Thousands and thousands news. But no news about ātma*-tattvam. That is not to be taken. They do not know. So many newspapers. Therefore they are purchasing our books. They are intelligent. They are seeing something new. That is, they are intelligent man. Because they have never seen such books. There is elaborate science of God. One can go back to home, back to Godhead. You can talk with Him, you can eat with Him. These things are surprising. Indian man: First time they are hearing. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the cause we are selling six lakhs of rupees' worth books daily. They understand it is not so*-called religious sentiment, it is science. Our so-called swamis and yogis, they never tried. They did not know. Also big, big swamis, they went there. Instead of teaching them, he was taught how to eat meat. Sannyāsī eating meat. He was convinced, "Yes, why not?" At least, in India still, the sannyāsīs they do not eat meat. Except that rascal missionary. No one. There may be difference of opinion, Māyāvādīs. But their behavior is the same. Indian man: Sadācāra. *Prabhupāda: Sadācāra is there. But these people, asadācārī, and passing as sannyāsī. Cigarette, meat*-eating and everything, drinking. We are asking common men to give it up, and they say, "Oh, what is the wrong there?" They do not know what is the wrong there. This time in Iran we initiated some Iranian. Some Afghans also coming. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have Arabic *Īśopaniṣad* ready for printing that was translated by your Lebanese disciple. Prabhupāda: Oh, that he has done. He promised... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Motaji. He told me to give it to him and he'd print it on his press. Prabhupāda: Give this light. [break] Indian man: Chinese, German, French, Italian, English... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Swedish is coming. Prabhupāda: Dutch. Dutch. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Italian is at the printer. Italian *Gītā*. Devotee: French *Bhāgavatam*. Prabhupāda: French *Bhāgavatam*. No, Dutch *Bhāgavatam*? Dutch also. No, they have printed, I have seen it. Devotee: Spanish also. *Prabhupāda: They may read and translate. And why in India where there is Bhagavad*-gītā? Apart from all other Vedic literatures, set aside, the gist of all Vedic knowledge, Bhagavad-gītā, there is. And still, people are kept into darkness. How much lamentable. Still, big, big leaders, at least, they want to preach Bhagavad-gītā-without Kṛṣṇa. They have set aside lakhs of rupees for preaching Bhagavad-gītā, but condition is if you preach without Kṛṣṇa. Just see. Bhagavad-gītā in every page it is written "śrī-bhagavān uvāca." Not even it is said "kṛṣṇaḥ uvāca." Because some rascal may take Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being, therefore Vyāsadeva has specifically said... People know it, "kṛṣṇaḥ uvāca," but he says "śrī-bhagavān uvāca." The bhagavān word. People may not mistake that Kṛṣṇa is somebody else. And they want to banish Kṛṣṇa from Bhagavad-gītā. Even Gandhi did it. So you explain Bhagavad-gītā as it is there in Ahmedabad? Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: They like it? Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Many young people are very attracted. Prabhupāda: Yes, when real thing will be presented, it will act. Yaśomatīnandana: Many people frankly admit that they had a very vague idea of religion. It is not so... *Prabhupāda: Not many, all of them. They do not know what is religion. Therefore there are so many rascal religionists. And Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam begins dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. All cheating type of religions kicked out from here. This is beginning. And Vṛndāvana dāsa Ṭhākura has translated, Indian man: Chakapat.(?) *Prabhupāda: Chakapat. So whatever is going on in the name of religion, simply cheating. Because religion means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means the laws given by God. That is religion. But they do not know who is God and what is the law. And God is coming personally, giving the laws. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. They'll not take it. In the absence they'll say, "We have not seen God. We do not know who is God." And when He comes, they don't take. They are misguided by the leaders. Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Take Bhagavad-gītā, but don't touch Kṛṣṇa. Untouchable. Take the egg and cut the throat of the chicken; it is expensive. Take only the hind part; *you'll get the egg. And mouth is expensive, cut it. Ardha*-kukkuṭī-nyāya [Cc. Ādi-līlā 5.176]. Very intelligent, that this part is expensive and this part is productive. Keep this part and cut. So as soon as in Bhagavad-gītā we say you have to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa-no, cut. That part, cut. And Kṛṣṇa said karmaṇy evādhikāras te, and work like ass day and night. "Ah, yes, we'll do." Yaśomatīnandana: That is the most favorite slogan of everybody. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they're asses. Asses, they want... Even in Tehran, I saw the ass. This is Indian civilization. Loaded. Indian man: With pots or something. Prabhupāda: Right. Some tons of things. The ass does not know why he is carrying so much load. Therefore mūḍha. What for he is carrying? What is his profit? He does not know. But he's carrying so much. "I am big industrialist. I have got so much business." What for you are doing industry? That he does not know. Ass. Karmīs are described as asses. They do not know what is the interest. Indian man (2): How does it matter what people call Kṛṣṇa, whether they call Bhagavān or Viṣṇu or what, Kṛṣṇa? If it is just only one God. We are talking removing Kṛṣṇa from *Gītā* but putting Bhagavān there instead of Kṛṣṇa. How does it matter? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "There is no more superior authority than Me." Yaśomatīnandana: *Prabhupāda: What you want more? It is up to you. He has explained everything, what is karma*-yoga, what is jñāna-yoga, what is dhyāna-yoga, what is bhakti-yoga, what is the ultimate goal-sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]- He has explained everything. Now it is up to you to think over it and do whatever you like. There is no force. You are at liberty. Your question has no standing. You have to decide, if you have got intelligence, to take up the instruction of Kṛṣṇa and by happy. It is up to you. What was your question? What was your question? Indian man (2): What was my question? I said how does it matter what name we give to Kṛṣṇa, whether we call Him by Bhagavān or other names...? Prabhupāda: Dog, cat, whatever you like. Indian man (2): No. As far as for God. Prabhupāda: No, no, as you say, "Whatever you like." You can call Him a dog, a cat. You can call. Indian man (2): The name of Bhagavān only I said. Prabhupāda: Do you know Bhagavān's name? You do not know Bhagavān. How do you know Bhagavān's name? Indian man (2): It is interchangeably used, Kṛṣṇa and Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: What is interchangeable? Here it says mām ekam. Where is interchangeable? Why you manufacture? Fertile brain. Don't make your brain fertile. That is going on, rascaldom. Interchangeable. Why interchangeable? Mām ekam. Ekam. Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa is the only God. That's why there is no other alternative. Kṛṣṇa is the God, there is no alternative. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is... That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. All incarnation of God is described, and the summary is given at the end that all these names, Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, and so many, hundreds and thousands, so all of them are Kṛṣṇa's plenary portion or portion of the plenary portion. Ete ca aṁśa-kalāḥ. And this Kṛṣṇa, tu bhagavān, He is the original. Ete ca aṁśa-kalāḥ. And this Kṛṣṇa, tu bhagavān, He is the original. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. It is clearly stated. And Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. There are many incarnation of God. So many incarnations that you cannot count even. Just like it is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that like you cannot count the waves of the river, similarly you cannot count how many incarnations are there. But Bhāgavata gives you the information that all these incarnations, innumerable incarnations, they are portions or part of the portions. But kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. And Kṛṣṇa also confirms that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: [Bg. 10.8] "I am the origin." Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. What is the difficulty? But unfortunately you have got fertile brain. You manufacture things. And that is your misfortune. It is better to remain a fool before the ācārya. Then he'll make progress. As Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana [Cc. Ādi 7.71]. "My guru saw Me a fool number one, and he has chastised Me." When Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī asked Him that "You are a sannyāsī, You are simply chanting," so He replied like that: guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana, "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a fool number one. Therefore he has said, 'You simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You rascal, You cannot do anything.' So I am doing like that." He said that. He represented Himself a representative of the fools and rascals. So kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. This is the only business, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then you gradually come to your original sense. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. It is very easy thing. People will not take it. They want to see magic, they want to see jugglery, they want to hear all nonsense. This is the... If you talk nonsense, cheating them, they will like it. Satya bole tomāre lata yuta jagat bihar dana kali-yuga tuk lage anahaspar.(?) Kṛṣṇa is speaking, but... Personally? That is not good. They'll go to some rascal who can talk jugglery and show magic. Who can show greater magic than Kṛṣṇa? Who has done it? A seven-years-old boy lifting the mountain. That is mythology. When Kṛṣṇa shows something wonderful, that is mythology. Mythology, Vyāsadeva has written mythology. And big, big ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya and Madhvācārya, big, big, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they have studied this mythology and given their comments. Another common sense is that there are hundreds and thousands and millions planets. There is no life, everywhere, rocks and sands, and everything is here? Here there are rocks and sands and there are living entities, there are forests, there is greenness, everything. Variety. Why other planets without varieties? If somebody has created, why he's so dull that he has created everything here, and everywhere simply rocks and sands? And what business he has to do this? Rocks and sand? How he has misspent his valuable time for creating rocks and sand? And wherefrom the sand came? Scientifically, sand is there where there is sea. Because sand is sodium silicate. It is manufactured from salt. So without water there is no question of sand. These things have to be considered. And rock is also combination of sand. Indian man (2): In today's Times there is a news item. Very light, but it can be giving different sense.(?) Prabhupāda: What is that news? Indian man (2): Somebody has given the prediction, I forget his name, but he says that in the next thirty years or so the human beings will discover some things on which gravity does not act. Prabhupāda: Something? Yaśomatīnandana: Human beings will discover some things on which the law of gravity does not work. Prabhupāda: Law of gravity does not work now also. There is no question of this discovery. You take one small needle and you take one big log. The log will float and the needle will go down. The needle is so less weight, but it goes down. And the log is so heavy, it floats. Where is law of gravity? Indian man (2): But that is, that is only relative. Both are being acted upon... Prabhupāda: Therefore relative, it is not absolute, law of gravity. Indian man (2): The thing is, till now we are thinking that light (indistinct) things, and all our thinking was conditioned by that. At least in the scientific context. *Prabhupāda: Scientific context... In Hawaii they cut all the coconuts because they are very scientist*-law of gravity. But we don't care for this. We don't care. We are keeping the coconut on our head. We never think of law of gravity, that it will fall down. And those who are very much advanced in law of gravity, they have lost all the beauty of the trees, they have thrown the... They are afraid they will... Indian man (2): Fall on the head. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will fall down. This is their gain of life. We have discussed this point. Why the green apple does not fall down? So this is their concoction. And why the other planets do not fall down? With so many rocks. Millions. They do not fall down. Where is the law of gravity acting? That means, law means it is made by somebody. And the maker, if He likes, it will act. If He does not like, it will not act. Just like Lord Rāmacandra, all the stones He threw over the sea and they began to float. Not that when He made that bridge with stones, they are solidified. No, they began to float. And all the monkeys went over them. So the lawmaker is Lord Rāmacandra. If He likes, the stone will go down. If He doesn't like, it will float. The lawmaker is fact, not the law. Just like in the state law, today it is law, tomorrow it is no law. It depends on the lawmaker. [break] ...there is the Govardhana Hill. What law is there? Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa's law. *Prabhupāda: No, even these yogis, they can do that. Aṇimā, laghimā, mahimā, prāpti*-siddhi. Aṣṭa-siddhi-yoga. By yogic process you can become so stout and strong that you can take a hill on your... Mahimā. Indian man (2): I may come tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Indian man (3): I had written to you, and I think Mr. Saurabha had forwarded my letter to you, to which I got a reply, and I was asked to come and meet you today. I just require to is it the right program of the right place or right tell you what I had in mind or perhaps have in mind? I have about thirty acres of land at Udaipur, in Rajasthan. I was trying to make a campus with studios, laboratories, and residential places for these producers, stars, casts, and things. When discussing with Mr. Saurabha I was amazed that some spare land which we had thought of utilizing for horticulture, we could better utilize it for cowherds to have say one hundred cows. I have been thinking, apart from this cowherd business, I have been thinking about this campus for some time back. And when I met Girirāja and we started getting more close together, association, I thought that why not should we have a temple of Lord Kṛṣṇa as the center from where we start the activities? Prabhupāda: That's nice. We must have Kṛṣṇa, that's a fact. What is the next proposal? We have got experience. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also introduced this dramatic play, but the play was performed by a great devotee. So unless devotees are trained, this play will not be effective. Indian man (3): Yes, I have discussed that also with Mr. Saurabha. Prabhupāda: [break]... The devotees who can spare time. First of all, all the devotees, they are also in the training, and if they have to learn another training, it may be very difficult. Indian man (3): Sir, you would perhaps agree that... [break] *Prabhupāda: That we are doing. Just like in New York we have got stage. So we are playing something from Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, Bhāgavata occasionally. *Indian man (1): I saw in New York one month back Rāmāyaṇa*-gītā. In the temple I saw the Rāmāyaṇa-gītā. It was really very exciting. My two sons are there in New York, so I took them to the temple. So Your Divine Grace was at that time perhaps busy or something, that I couldn't have the darśana. Prabhupāda: When I was there you were also there? Indian man (1): Yes, same day I was leaving for India. So I couldn't have your darśana I just got there. Girirāja told me... [break] Prabhupāda: What about the car(?) there? But a film project, it can be done, provided it is done in foreign countries. Here everything is expensive and lacking manpower. [break] To make a film it requires huge amount of money. Indian man (3): Money perhaps we would be able to..., that problem we will be able to solve now because initially for the project, not only making the film, the whole project of the campus, I have got the blueprint with me. When you are little better, I'll show the blueprint and I'll have your blessings that if I am able to achieve it. What I was thinking that a short film, say, about eight to ten thousand feet, which occupies an hour and twenty minutes or so, initially made. And dubbed into as many languages as can be done, because the sound portion is always separate. And as I was discussing to Saurabha, Girirāja... [break] Prabhupāda: The life of Kṛṣṇa is known almost everyone. So... Indian man (3): Yes. And also, sir, there are... Prabhupāda: What benefit they will get? Indian man (3): ...numerous pictures also. What we have to educate the people... *Prabhupāda: [break] By practice. We are training them to practice how to become devotees. By superficial seeing the activities of Kṛṣṇa, this is not... One has to practice. Just like we are going to start gurukula. Gurukula means practice. Brahmacārī guru*-kule vasan dāntaḥ [SB 7.12.1]. How to become self-controlled, dānta. That is the... So our mission is to awaken the original consciousness, and that can be done by practice. Without practice, it is not possible. It is not by seeing some picture one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is not possible. Indian man (3): But sir, do we not convey to a larger people... Prabhupāda: That is being done through books. Indian man (3): But sir, books are for such people who can read, who can understand. Prabhupāda: Yes, something can be done by showing the picture, but taking consideration of the labor and money invested in that way, the response will be not satisfactory. It is not possible. Indian man (3): What I was thinking was that we have a limited... *Prabhupāda: Simply by seeing that Kṛṣṇa is lifting the Govardhana Hill, they'll, many of them will laugh, that "This is all mythology. A boy is lifting Govardhana Hill." Many of them will laugh instead of taking seriously. Because unless one is devotee, he cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as he sees the boy Kṛṣṇa is lifting Govardhana Hill*-he does not understand what is Kṛṣṇa-he'll laugh. Indian man (3): That is elsewhere. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Here also. Yaśomatīnandana: Mostly here. (several Indians talking at once) (end) *Morning Walk-*-August 14, 1976, Bombay Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...decide where your apartment will be. Prabhupāda: That roof is the fifth story? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sixth. Prabhupāda: Sixth. So we are finishing fifth only? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We are finished will be six stories. Pardon? Prabhupāda: Only fifth, up floors? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you can't go more than that. This is near the airport. Now they've introduced a new law that you can't go even below this. What we did is the new law has just come into effect, and so we did the slabs in the night. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a new law which reduces the height even further. You can't have any big buildings in Bombay now. Prabhupāda: Why? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know the reason, but apparently Indira Gandhi doesn't like big buildings. So actually according to the new law we have already built more than what the legal limit is. So what we did... Prabhupāda: No, we have got some assetship(?) for the road? We have left over? Where is Saurabha? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Saurabha is in the front. Shall I call him? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...quite nice place for walking. Why it is drying? The leaf? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: People are coming just to see the building now. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When it is built it will be I think just like Vṛndāvana. Many people think that the temple is these two towers. They think that the actual temple are these towers. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is included in the... [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...watch the drama tonight also? They're going to have a drama also. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This machine? It's a water cooler. Someone donated it to us about two, three years ago. Prabhupāda: It acts? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Hari-śauri: That's where we get all the drinking water from. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Cold water from. We put boiled water into it. Bring boiled water from the kitchen. Prabhupāda: We have no tap water here? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have tap water, but it's not drinking water. I mean it needs to be boiled. In Delhi you can drink the tap water, they say it's okay, but in Bombay it's very risky to drink tap water. Especially in monsoon. [break] ...famous actress and singer called Shri Lakshna*-pandit. She's one of our devotee's sister-in-law also. She has some devotion. So she is coming to sing bhajanas tomorrow in the pandal. Is that okay? She's very famous. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's okay. Prabhupāda: Before Deity one can do. Before Deity one can show devotional activities, but not otherwise. Otherwise it will be sense enjoyment. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Vṛndāvana once you told me not to have the rāsa*-līlā by these professionals also. Prabhupāda: No, before Deity everything. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can do it. Prabhupāda: (counting floors) One, two, three, four, five, six? No? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's five, including the ground floor it comes to six. Harikeśa: One, two, three, four, five, six. From the ground floor it's twice as high. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. (all chant japa) [break] Prabhupāda: We are, some space is due to us on account of giving up the road? Saurabha: That is already calculated. That is given to us already. Prabhupāda: Given? Saurabha: F.S.I. (effasai?) Prabhupāda: F.S.I. Saurabha: That we have already. We have used that in that building. We have used it in the building that is coming up here. Prabhupāda: Oh. It is already. You have submitted the plan? Saurabha: Yes. Prabhupāda: They have sanctioned? Saurabha: No. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It will take about a month to endorse it. Prabhupāda: [break] ...so nice walking this route. Acyutānanda: Good air. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Acyutānanda: We're invited to do kīrtana to inaugurate a Bhāgavata*-saptāha and the Dvārakā Śaṅkarācārya will be present. Prabhupāda: Where? Acyutānanda: It's Sumati Morarji's... Prabhupāda: Place? Acyutānanda: I don't know what the place is. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's somewhere in Braverly, but she's sponsoring or she's associated with it. Acyutānanda: It's probably a Vallabha paṇḍita. Prabhupāda: No, no, we have no objection with Vallabha. Acyutānanda: They're sending two cars. Prabhupāda: Oh. When? Acyutānanda: This morning. So I wanted to invite him to come and see the temple and Your Divine Grace... Prabhupāda: About that Vallabhācārya, she wrote me letter, I've replied it. I replied it. Acyutānanda: Yes, Girirāja told me. I never mention those... Prabhupāda: No, don't mention it. Acyutānanda: Because they don't listen. Their history is that Vallabhācārya had the dream and discovered Govardhana and Śrī Nāthajī, Gopāla Deity, and there was no Mādhavendra Purī. *Prabhupāda: Ācchā? But in the court it has been established. One lawyer in Delhi, he told me that this Deity belongs to the Gauḍīya*-sampradāya. In the court it has... Acyutānanda: How did it come to them? Prabhupāda: That Mādhavendra Purī or somebody delivered to Vallabhācārya. Mādhavendra Purī is not possible, somebody else. [break] Dvārakā Śaṅkarācārya, he's a Māyāvādī, and he'll give Bhāgavata? Acyutānanda: No, he's just going to give blessings to the... He's presiding, I guess. [break] Prabhupāda: That is also complete like this? Saurabha: Yes. The other side we are making one special room for you on the roof. So... Prabhupāda: One special room like this? No. Saurabha: That is the lift room. But next to that, the similar room, the same size. It is not done. Because that we have to do later on. We're not allowed to do that now. There's a new law passed in Bombay that no one can build higher than six stories, nowhere in Bombay. So we had to rush for this, otherwise they would have stopped us. Prabhupāda: So why you are not rushing? Saurabha: No, this is finished. We have reached the highest. That point is the highest. It's only for the slab. Afterwards, they don't mind. [break] Prabhupāda: ...from this light. Hari-śauri: The switch is just in front of Prabhupāda's door. Prabhupāda: There was a seat? Where is gone, that seat? Hari-śauri: They probably took it in because of the rain. [break] Prabhupāda: ...rainy season these leaves should have been very green, but it is not green. Huh? Saurabha: It's also the sea wind that kills a lot of trees. Not so much here, but if one goes down to the sea, all trees they have no leaves. There's some type of salt or something in the air that destroys plants. Here it's all right, but close to the sea it's all... That must affect them. [break] Prabhupāda: ...saptāha, it is not authorized. *Acyutānanda: No. But in some editions of Bhāgavatam they have a Bhāgavata*-māhātmyam, and there's a story about bhakti and jñāna and vairāgya and Nārada Muni. Prabhupāda: That no ācārya has mentioned. Harikeśa: That's *Gītā* Press again. That's *Gītā* Press. Acyutānanda: They say how this is the instructions for how Bhāgavata should be read in seven days up to this canto. Prabhupāda: *Gītā* Press was Māyāvādī. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This lady? That man there? He's our accountant, Mr. Krishna. He lives with us full time. He's doing very good service. *Vāsughoṣa: About two months ago in Hyderabad they had a very big Bhāgavata*-saptāha. One thousand and eight brāhmaṇas chanting Bhāgavatam for seven days, and it was presided over by a big Vaiṣṇava sannyāsī, Rāmānuja-sampradāya. And all the local Marwaris, they gave lakhs of rupees for prasādam and so many things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They hurt our collection, I think. Vāsughoṣa: No, they haven't given anything to our temple, but for this, the same people, some of them, most of them refused even to become members. One man who refused me to become a member, he gave fifty thousand rupees for prasādam. Prabhupāda: Why they refused us or help us? *Hari-śauri: He's talking about some Bhāgavata*-saptāha they had there. Prabhupāda: Because it is... Acyutānanda: They are the "Hindus." We are the foreigners. *Yaśomatīnandana: But they don't go too long, because in Ahmedabad they have started one Gujarat, one Bhāgavata*-hṛdaya-pīṭha.(?) Just outside Ahmedabad. And he had a plan to build a whole huge temple and dharmaśālās and schools, gurukulas. That Krishna Shankara Shastri, that poor fellow, he started something, and now he has scarcity, he cannot find funds to finish his project. So the project is lying idle for almost two years. They collected sixty, seventy lakhs initially, but then... Prabhupāda: Sixty seventy lakhs? And he squandered it? Yaśomatīnandana: No. He has got land and he has got some buildings, but now he has no funds to go further. And there also no local people give. All he collected in London and Africa from the Gujaratis. [break] ...in becoming trustees and managing the things, but they will not give any money. Prabhupāda: So bring some sitting place. Vāsughoṣa: Every brāhmaṇa got 116 rupees, and they brought him a cādara and they paid for prasāda. Lakhs of people came from all over central India, Andhra Pradesh, thousands and thousands. They paid for prasādam. Whole pandal, huge pandal, they went to this exhibition ground. They gave, the rest of the money went to the Rāmānuja Swami. Acyutānanda: Oh, that was the yajña. Vāsughoṣa: Jeer Swami. Shriman Narayana Jeer. *Acyutānanda: That's not a Bhāgavata*-saptāha. *Vāsughoṣa: Yes, Sahasra*-Bhāgavata. They had one thousand... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that Donghari Maharaja? Yaśomatīnandana: That Donghari is very famous in Gujarat, so now he has mostly become famous all over India. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they are booking thirty rooms in our guesthouse for ten days for the program. Acyutānanda: You've got new japa beads, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. From tulasī. It was made in Honolulu. In Honolulu tulasī plants are very luxurious. Hyderabad local people, they are not sympathetic with our temple? Huh? Not sympathetic? *Acyutānanda: But when their caste guru comes they may come out, because that's a big thing. Narayana Jeer, Rāmānuja*-sampradāya, so Rāmānujas have to pay their respects to their own ācārya. The temple is being built. And the location of Hyderabad is such that there are so many guesthouses, because it's near the station, Nampally Station. There are many guesthouses. So from all over India people who stop in Hyderabad, they come to the temple. So from all over Andhra we got invitations from people who had come to the temple. (plane going over) Prabhupāda: Guesthouse? Acyutānanda: There's the Vṛndāvana Hotel, and that Ashoka? Vāsughoṣa: Annapurna... Acyutānanda: Annapurna Hotel, so many guesthouses. Prabhupāda: They visit our temple? *Vāsughoṣa: All those brāhmaṇas that came for the yajña, and everybody, after the yajña ended at about six*-thirty, they immediately came to the temple, our temple, afterwards. Everybody knew. We distributed thousands of books there. It was very good book distribution. We sold in one day, you know, we were selling two thousand rupees a day worth of books. Everybody that came there was very pious. Prabhupāda: We took advantage. Vāsughoṣa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Unless one is pious how he can... Vāsughoṣa: Yes, we went there every day and we had all day book distribution and kīrtana. Actually some of the Marwaris were good friends of ours, so we wanted to get..., they announced that we were there and we were selling books over the loudspeaker system. Very good. They gave us..., we had a good place for book distribution. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Bombay also Shrimati Morarji had a big program in her house recently. There were huge crowds and our devotees went there to distribute books afterwards. Yaśomatīnandana: They didn't like it, though. Ghaja, Ghaja came, from Śrī Nāthajī, has come to her house. Prabhupāda: What is the idea, Ghaja(?) Due to her influence people came. Not for the Ghaja(?). She is influential and something is being done, everyone knows that. *Acyutānanda: In Bangalore we went to another Rāmānuja sannyāsī's āśrama, and he invited us to see an initiation, and they burned the śaṅkha*-cakra on the shoulders, by fire, branded. That means they're initiated. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, they put... Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Devotee: It's all right. (Hindi conversation) *Prabhupāda: Nivṛtta*-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt. Bhavauṣadhi [SB 10.1.4]. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Highest medicine. *Prabhupāda: Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra*-mano-'bhirāmāt. And it is very pleasing to the ear and the heart. Mana, śrotra, śrotra means... Dr. Patel: Ears and mind. *Prabhupāda: Ears and mind. Nivṛtta*-tarṣair upagīyamānāt. This chanting is properly done by a person who has fully satisfied his material desires, satiated, no more. Nivṛtta-tarṣaiḥ. Tṛṣṇa. Nivṛtta. No more material desire. Nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhi [SB 10.1.4], and it is the medicine for this bhava-roga. Bhava, punar bhava. Once take your birth, then die, then punar bhava. So this is bhava-roga. Nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānāt. (aside:) Just spread it here. According to Vedic system, if one has no sitting place, he can offer a straw. They should offer a straw, "Sir, I have no sitting place, kindly accept this straw." And one glass of water. This should be offered to any guest. This is Vedic system. Everyone should be received properly, even if he's enemy. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam. So *Dr. Patel(?): Yes. Shall we call that Pandit Āyur*-Veda ācārya of India for you? If you don't believe in our medicine? Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, no. Dr. Patel: What do you say? After all, this is our... Prabhupāda: No medicine is... Dr. Patel: No, what I mean to say, that kṣetra and kṣetrajña are depend on each other. If there is no kṣetra, there will be no kṣetrajña to stay. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Dr. Patel: So you have got to look after that kṣetra, or what the kṣetrajña will be happy there to live there? I think I am not wrong. Prabhupāda: No, you are right. Kṣetra is changeable. Kṣetrajña is permanent. Dr. Patel: Permanent, but changing kṣetra may be kept till the kṣetrajña is there, presiding over it. Prabhupāda: However you may try, antavanta ime dehāḥ. Dr. Patel: Antavanta ime dehāḥ, that is right, but the anta may not be got too quickly. Prabhupāda: No, it is not. Indian: What is this (Hindi)? *Dr. Patel: Sagrada(?) is meant for only cough. (Hindi) Is Āyur*-Vedic, very good medicine. Indian: Where can we get some? Dr. Patel: You can grow them here in this garden. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very easy. Indian: Where can I buy it? Dr. Patel: You can buy it from the market, serabasagra.(?) Syrup, it is in the form of paste. Leaves are also paste make a decoction out of it. Asaka(?) is recognized by the Western medicine also. Americans are importing it. Prabhupāda: It was introduced by Dr. Bose. Dr. Patel: Bose, yes. Prabhupāda: He introduced so many Indian drugs in the... Dr. Patel: They have in Bengal this Standard Pharmaceuticals of Bengal, been able to isolate penicillin from cow dung, and they have a big plant in Calcutta producing penicillin from cow dung. It's stated, you know, how cow dung was considered sacred. Perhaps we did not know that, but by experience. Prabhupāda: Before this, one Monmohan Gosh, Dr. Monmohan Gosh, he was pathologist in medical college. He proved the antiseptic properties of gobara. He was Dr. Gosh's friend. So he was working in his laboratory also. I know. Long ago. Dr. Patel: And in gomūtra, sir, there are so many hormones coming, and a big sample of hormones which can be resynthesized as human hormones. That is why gomūtra is being drunk. Prabhupāda: Gomūtra is good medicine for liver disease. If you drink urine of... *Dr. Patel: Yes, it is proved scientifically so many hormones and by*-products and hormones which can be resynthesized into human hormones, modern science. Indian: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: That's right, gomūtra is considered sacred by we people that we put a drop in the newly born child's mouth. *Prabhupāda: Pañca*-gavya, gomūtra is one of the parts. Pañca-gavya. Dr. Patel: Milk and honey. Five ingredients, gomūtra is one of the five things. Honey, milk... *Prabhupāda: No, that is pañca*-amṛta. Pañca-gavya a little different. Gobara, urine, milk, yogurt, and ghee. This is pañca-gavya, pertaining to the cow. And that honey, that is pañca-amṛta. Dr. Patel: Sir, I have a question. Can I ask you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Now then, Arjuna was so advised that he should fight out. So in that case, I mean we all consider he was right to follow Kṛṣṇa advice? Then if a man is overtaken by disease and if he fights out that... Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't say that, that he should not fight. It is my personal... Not that one should not take care of the body or one should not eat medicine, that is not. I like this, let me do without medicine. That is my personal... It is... Dr. Patel: What is medicine? Any herb is a medicine, even food is a medicine. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, I don't decry medicine. That is not my business. Dr. Patel: No, no, I don't say decry. But you don't want to take advantage of medicine. Prabhupāda: Medicine. Just like a type of vairāgya, sometimes they do not eat. That does not mean eating is forbidden. It is not. It is my personal, I am trying to avoid, that's all. There was a big friend of W. C. Bannerji. You have heard the name W. C. Bannerji? He was one of the three inaugurators of Congress in the beginning. No, that Bannerji, Surendranatha Bannerji, he came later. Almost contemporary. But the Congress was started by I think, yes, W. C. Bannerji. W. C. Bannerji was a big barrister. So he had his friends, contemporary. So he was also brāhmaṇa. So when... He was taking daily his bath in the Ganges, and if he was diseased, was drinking Ganges water. So he became seriously sick. So this W. C. Bannerji, he was a big man. So he asked his permission to bring some doctor. "You'll die in this way."(?) So he persisted, "No, I shall simply drink this Ganges water." So it is not that medical science is in defeated position. Dr. Patel: He just died. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Brahmacaryeṇa. Tapasya, one of the items is anāhāra. Anāhāra. As far as possible not to eat. That is one of the items of tapasya. Vāsughoṣa: You know this ācārya, Vinoba Bhave, he's going on a fast until death starting in September to end cow slaughter in India. Prabhupāda: Whole Europe, there is no cloud, no rain. Dr. Patel: There's lot of rain here. Prabhupāda: Fortunate vṛṣṭi. Still India fortunate. I'm coming from London, Paris, and Tehran. All fields yellow. And Europe, so much scorching heat and sunshine, I never seen. Especially in London. This time I saw everything has become yellow. Greenness gone. *Dr. Patel: The non*-monsoon countries can produce more food than the monsoon countries. The monsoon comes only three months in a year. Those people get rain all year 'round, they can grow better crops. This is how so many parts of North America and Europe, they can have sufficient crops all the year. We can't have it here. Prabhupāda: No, there is scarcity of water also. They are killing the animal premature. They cannot do it. It has come to this point. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) in favor of vegetarians. We are fools raising fodder and this thing and again raising animals on that and feeding on that. Why can't we directly feed on poor animals? I think the human race will survive more that way than by eating animals, but economically it is more sound. *Prabhupāda: Certainly. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is recommended, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. Kṛṣṇa never said māṁsād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa never said. This is artificial. In the lower stage of human civilization when they cannot produce food they do not know how to do it, so the animals are killed. What can they do? But actual food is anna, food grains. Even for the animals. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Yajñād bhavati bhū... So there is no yajña. There is no yajña. So this saṅkīrtana-yajña is the only yajña in Kali-yuga. So if they perform, everything is all right. There will be cloud, there will be rain. Dr. Patel: Yajña karma samudbhava.(?) *Prabhupāda: Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana*-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. In the Kali-yuga, the other yajñas are not possible. First of all, there is no yājñika-brāhmaṇa and paraphernalia, so many things. Perhaps if we perform yajña and pour ghee on it, immediately government arrest. Ghee can be produced immense. I have studied. Immensely, you can produce, by keeping cows. Kṛṣṇa has recommended, go-rakṣya. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. The go-rakṣya is essential. It is not that animal slaughter stopping, no. Kṛṣṇa could have said paśu-rakṣya. No, Kṛṣṇa has not said. Go-rakṣya. Those who are animal eaters, they can indulge in eating other insignificant animals. *Dr. Patel: I think go*-rakṣya must be the backbone of the economy. Prabhupāda: No, health, brain, everything. Milk is miracle food. And we are practically experiencing in our farms that if the cows are protected nicely, they can supply immense milk. We are getting in our farms, extra milk. Everyone is eating so many preparations, sandeśa, rasagullā, rābrī. They are surprised. In their history they have not eaten all these things. *Dr. Patel: They are eating the milk*-producing animal so milk will not... Prabhupāda: No, they advertise milk is bad. Dr. Patel: Who? Prabhupāda: These Europeans, Americans. Dr. Patel: Really? Prabhupāda: Yes. "Don't eat milk." Do they not? And they cannot drink also. In Bengal there is a proverb, kule pete ghiya(?) (indistinct). If you supply preparation made of ghee to the dog, he cannot digest it. Guest: (quotes proverb in Bengali) Prabhupāda: Ha! They cannot digest factually. They get, what is called? That disease? Harikeśa: Jaundice. Prabhupāda: Jaundice. They cannot eat much milk product. *Dr. Patel: Yes, sir. Cow is the biggest factory to produce protein, first*-class proteins for human beings. Instead of taking advantage of the products of the factory, they eat out the factory itself. Prabhupāda: So we see practically in our farm the cows give more milk than other farms. Dr. Patel: The satisfaction of the animal. Prabhupāda: They are very satisfied. You have been in New Vrindaban with me? No, you were not. So the cows are so happy that... Just like in India. They are walking here and there. Dr. Patel: They don't do anything. Now they have, they have (Hindi), brought some crossing and each cow, Jersey cows and Indian cows, they have crossed and they are producing more than thirty, forty liters of milk every day. Prabhupāda: One liter means? Dr. Patel: Two pounds. Prabhupāda: So we have got cows, they are supplying more than hundred pounds. Indian: This cost is three thousand rupees, one cow. Four thousand. (Hindi) pure cows five thousand rupees. Dr. Patel: They have brought some Holland bulls and Jersey cows and then Indian bulls, and brought some genetic researchers brought out a new hybrid. Indian: It is very good cow, very good. Giving thirty to forty liters per day. Hari-śauri: Those cows we have in the Pennsylvania farm, the two best ones, they're the two best pedigree cows in the whole of America. They have their pedigree traced back two hundred and fifty years to when the first cows came to America. Purebreds. Prabhupāda: In our Philadelphia farm we are selling fifteen hundred dollars extra milk. Fifteen hundred dollars per month. So if cow is properly protected, it can supply immense milk. Dr. Patel: It was Mr. Nehru, he said that we cannot prohibit cow slaughter. Therefore he made so many wrong things. [break] (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) This is māyā. We are... *Dr. Patel: We are praying to end rebirths by kṛṣṇa*-bhakti, and so there is no question of rebirth if we do it sincerely, and it is for the parama-bhakta... Prabhupāda: Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti... [Bg. 4.9]. Dr. Patel: Mām eti so'rjuna. *Prabhupāda: That is perfect. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramaṁ gataḥ. That is the highest. Why these people, our own people, in spite of possessing Bhagavad*-gītā, we are so rascals, we are not taking that? Dr. Patel: I think the degeneration of this country are from the foreign people, foreign domination. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, it was their propaganda, Macauley's, that "If you keep Indians as Indians, you'll never be able to rule over them." So British policy was to make propaganda so that "everything Indian is bad." Dr. Patel: I think Max Mueller (indistinct). Prabhupāda: No, it was necessary for them to Anglicize the Indians to rule over them. Dr. Patel: Our differential, or (Hindi) has created all this rot. Prabhupāda: It is not our, it is human society's. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) We allowed everyone to be here unawares. If public corporation, trading company, becomes the ruler of this country, I don't understand how it could be. *Prabhupāda: Because we have no, that cātur*-varṇa system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. You have given up Kṛṣṇa's instruction, now you have to suffer. You do not train brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So anyone who is in power, he is good. That is Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means anyone gets vote, he's in power. They can misuse the power. There is no kṣatriya. *Dr. Patel: I think that is a wrong system (much airplane noise*-indistinct) this open Democracy is not a (indistinct) by consensus... Prabhupāda: No, no. Now, either democracy or monarchy, the population is śūdra. So either you make it democracy or any "crazy," śūdra will be on the power. So they can... *Dr. Patel: In Kali*-yuga, sir, the śūdras will rule according to the... *Prabhupāda: Everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ. Who is going to become brāhmaṇa? We are inviting everyone, "Come here, become brāhmaṇa." Who is interested? He'll go to the factory. Instead of becoming brāhmaṇa he'll be hammerman. In America no students are coming to the philosophical class or higher mathematics class. Dr. Patel: Mathematics? Prabhupāda: No. Higher studies, nobody comes. Only technology. The higher class, higher studies class, they are being closed. The professors are getting no job. We have a friend, Dr. Henderson, he is a doctor in higher mathematics, he is not getting job. No students, nobody is interested in higher... Similarly, many other things, and literatures. Dr. Patel: Here also the same thing, nobody. And Sanskrit practically nil. Prabhupāda: And philosophy class, closed. Here I think also. Nobody... They think "What is the use of speculation?" Indian: At Kurukṣetra, one Sanskrit university they are planning. Prabhupāda: Vedic university. So that is our plan. We have asked government to give us land. Vāsughoṣa: We had a big article in the Times of India about it. *Prabhupāda: Provided government gives us land. [break] ...in Bombay. (Hindi) Palm trees, within the palm trees, such buildings will not have this advantage. I think in this quarter our, this land is the best. This Juhu and Birawallah(?) Scheme, this land is the best. Twenty*-thousand square yards full of palm trees, and we have made this garden. This advantage is not available by everyone. They divided the property, this side five lakhs and the vacant side nine lakhs. Fourteen. So anyway, we took both the sides. Taking this side, five lakhs, now this one building is worth five lakhs. There are six buildings. Very high. And we have got six buildings. *Dr. Patel: I put up a foundation of my new house here, it has cost me only foundation sixty thousand. Only twenty-one square feet. Twenty*-one hundred square feet. Foundation has cost (indistinct). Prabhupāda: No, it is very costly. (Hindi) So let us go down. (the remainder, meeting with Mrs. Birla and friends, is in Hindi with a little English.) (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 14, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: So they were not crying very loudly, but the grandfather inquired, "So why there is, it appears there is some great suffering?" So my father's eldest brother, he inquired, "Is your mother dead?" I consider like that, no, no. "So I am also dead." He died later on. Next day. He simply inquired, "I think your mother is dead." They said, "No, no." "No, I am also going to," and he died. Indian Doctor: These things are not very wonderful. Prabhupāda: From spiritual point of view this has no meaning. This is worldly affection. It is worldly affection. That is not very good asset for spiritual life. Āsakti. One has to give up āsakti. That is the process, renouncement. Voluntarily. *Indian Doctor: Anāsakta*-manaḥ. Prabhupāda: Anāsaktya. Yes. Our Vedic process is that at a certain age you must retire from family life. Voluntary, forceful, giving up association. Indian Doctor: Even there is worship (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Yes. So these are āsaktis. This husband and wife dying together, it is admitted(?) because āsakti is there. That āsakti will help him, that the wife will become a husband next life, and the husband will become wife next. And in that way they'll have to take birth again. Indian Doctor: Soul has got no tax.(?) *Prabhupāda: Karma*-bandha. *Indian Doctor: Karma*-bandha and jīva. Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, Fifth Canto, Fifth Chapter. Harikeśa: Karmātmakaṁ yena? *Prabhupāda: Ah, śarīra*-bandha. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam, yāvat mano vai karma? Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Bandha. Harikeśa: "As long as one does not inquire about the spiritual values of life, one is defeated and subjected to miseries arising from ignorance. Be it sinful or pious, karma has its resultant actions. If a person is engaged in any kind of karma, his mind is called karmātmaka, colored with fruitive activity. As long as the mind is impure, consciousness is unclear. And as long as one is absorbed in fruitive activity, he has to accept a material body." *Prabhupāda: That's all. By lābha*-yoga (?) woman will become man and the man will become woman. Indian Doctor: So long you are taking birth... Prabhupāda: What action you have got? Before that the verse is, *Indian Doctor: Kuṇape tri*-dhātuke. Prabhupāda: That they do not understand. That as soon as you accept a material body, either a very rich man's body or poor man's body or any body, either brāhmaṇa's body or śūdra's body, to accept material body means undergo miseries. Indian Doctor: But you have no choice to accept. By the will of God... Prabhupāda: No, you have got... You can become free. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti... *Indian Doctor: Bhakti*-avyabhicāriṇī. I have got that tendency, bhakti, avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti. *Prabhupāda: No, no, simply to know Kṛṣṇa. Māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena ya... So you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa without bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. So without bhakti there is no possibility to understand Kṛṣṇa. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you'll become free from this process of accepting material body. *Indian Doctor: Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is only business, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and avoid this botheration of repeating body, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is there. If you want to stop dehāntara-prāptiḥ, then you have to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no other way. But if you think that it is very pleasure to enter within the womb of mother and accept one body, and again come out and again work, and again die, and again enter. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. If you want this business, that is your choice. You can do it. But if you want to stop it, then this is the only way. Therefore śāstra says na sādhu manye. It is not good. Nūnam, read that verse. Harikeśa: *Prabhupāda: Kleśada āsa dehaḥ. Kleśada, as soon as you get a body, kleśada. May have good doctor friend, but I'll have to suffer. We can get some relief, but suffering is there. Therefore na sādhu manye. It is not good. So people are being trained up to become mad, pramattaḥ. And do anything, bring money. This is the modern civilization. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Things which are forbidden, they are doing that. Why? Indriya*-prītaya āpṛṇoti, only for sense gratification. They have no other ambition. Bring money and gratify senses. This is modern civilization. This is the exact explanation-nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Black money, white money, this money, that..., never mind, bring money. Indian Doctor: (laughter) By any way. *Prabhupāda: Yes, this is modern civilization. Big man, big rich man means bring money some way or other. This is big man. This is Kali*-yuga. Because if you have got money, you have got respect, you have got honor, you are recognized. So therefore they are after money. Bring money, that's all right. When I shall get money, I may have done black money, force money, this money, nobody will remember it. Bas. This is modern civilization. Bring money and enjoy sense. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. What for it is, struggle so much working hard? Yad indriya-prītaya. Only for the satisfaction of the senses. They have no other ambition. Because most of them, they do not believe there is next life. Most of them, 99.9 percent, they do not believe. Big, big professor, I have talked with so many big, big men in Europe. They have no... Our leaders also. The Munshi, he did not believe in the next life. Indian Doctor: There is research in parapsychology in certain municipality(?) of India, they have proved that (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: That they may do, a very great service, but we know it without going to the psychological process. We believe Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], bas, finished. What is the use of going to the psychology and...? Indian Doctor: But those... Prabhupāda: No, no, those who are fools, they may waste their time in that way. (laughter) But we are not so fool. Indian Doctor: They are fools to not to think that they'll become... *Prabhupāda: They are rascal fools because they do not take Kṛṣṇa's word. Kṛṣṇa says tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Why should we bother? Our mission is simply to propagate Kṛṣṇa's instructions. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't manufacture anything. So-called yoga, so-called meditation, so-called this and... We don't care for all this nonsense. Our only business is how to implement the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, the rascals may understand and be happy. That is our mission. We haven't got to manufacture anything. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You simply carry the message of Kṛṣṇa and try to deliver it to anyone you meet. This is our... We haven't got to manufacture anything. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Take it, without interpretation. Don't spoil the whole thing. Interpretation means spoiling. Whole thing spoiled. Indian doctor: Each man understands according to his own level of understanding. Prabhupāda: No. Suppose, just like you are medical man, you are giving somebody medicine, you are giving the direction. If he wants to be cured, he must take your direction. Not that somebody comes, "No, no, you can take it this way, you can do this." That is nonsense. That is nonsense. This nonsense we want to stop. Kṛṣṇa is giving the instruction, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12], the Supreme Personality of Godhead. What business you have got to poke your nose and give interpretation? Are you bigger than Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa left it for you? This nonsense going on. Big, big swamis, big, big yogis, big, big politicians, simply misinterpreting, he's spoiling his own life and he's spoiling others. Bas. This is going on. Very serious condition. Guest: You are not going to go down now? Prabhupāda: No. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to go on the terrace, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: If I like, I can... (conversation in Hindi) Why I have taken so much trouble? Guest: They are already traced out. So we come here. *Prabhupāda: No, you come and preach. The country is going to hell, the human society is going to hell for misguidance. These rascal leaders, they're going to hell themselves and they're leading others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. These fools and rascals are leading, they are going to hell, and they are taking the followers to the hell. This is going on. Stop this. At least in India. Save. That is real para-upakāra. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Indian Doctor: Even Jesus never taught that. These are the wrong followers. Prabhupāda: Jesus is different thing than that. I mean to say generally, generally, the people they want to exploit others. Indian Doctor: It is the greed of the human being. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but the mission should be, human being should be meant for doing good to others. Para*-upakāra. That para-upakāra spirit is gone on account of losing our own culture. Otherwise, India's culture is para-upakāra. India was open, "Come everyone, learn." Lord Jesus Christ also came here. All the Chinese, learned scholars, they used to come. The history is there. And India was open. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam. This is Indian culture. Even the enemy comes, "Yes, please come, you stay." But later on, they took advantage: "Oh, they are very liberal, enter there." And still we are liberal. "Please come here, stay here and take prasādam free, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Open to everyone. I shall manage anyway, I shall travel, still I shall lay down my life and bring money. Come here, stay. Still we are liberal. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. First of all, make your life successful by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then do good to others. Yesterday, I think, in Tehran, one boy came. He proposed that is it not good to help others? I immediately challenged, "What you have got you can help? What is your asset?" You cannot help. It is simply bogus proposition. If you can help, you can simply help by spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "Sir, I have come to you." "Why?" "To request you that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious." "How?" Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, "Always think of Me, just become My devotee, offer little obeisances." Anyone can do, a child can do. You cannot do? What is the difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Is there any difficulty? You haven't got to practice any yoga process, pressing your nose or keeping your head or this or that, no. Nothing. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.65]. "Without any doubt you are coming back to Me." And that is the highest perfection, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. There is no difficulty in preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no difficulty to accept it. And the result is the supreme. Indian Doctor: These are the people who have no faith. Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to canvass. They have no faith, I know that. Then why there is necessity of preaching all over the world? They have no faith, it is a fact. And you have to create faith. That is preaching. Padayor nipatya. That Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, *Indian Doctor: That's kṛṣṇa*-upakāra.(?) *Prabhupāda: He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya, "Whatever nonsense you have learned-forget." Then what to do? Kāku-śataṁ bravīmi sakalam eva vihāya dūrād gaurāṅga-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam. "You just become devotee of Lord Caitanya. I am flattering you, I am falling down on your feet"*-this is preaching. And what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. And if you do that, then what is the result? Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. If one is doing like that, Kṛṣṇa immediately recognizes, "Oh, you are the best friend of Mine." So if you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, then what you want more? You are undergoing so much austerities and... To be recognized by God. And God says that "Immediately I recognize you." Whom? One who is doing this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68]. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. Immediately. You may be a fool, you may be rascal, you may be illiterate. But if you do this, immediately Kṛṣṇa recognizes. Kṛṣṇa never said that unless one is a big grammarian, big scientist, big politician, big engineer, big doctor, then I can do it. No. Simply one who does this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam [Bg 18.68]. What is that paramaṁ guhyam? Sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. "Give up all nonsense. Surrender to Me." This is paramaṁ guhyam. And they are simply manufacturing nonsense. So the time is very bad, but nature's law is very strict. We may defy it, "There is no God, there is no next birth, there is no nothing." We may say like that, but when death will come, you cannot say anything. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. Bas, all your talkings, all your intelligence taken away. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Immediately transferred to another body. Daiva-netreṇa. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. "No, no, I am Prime Minister!" "No, you must become a dog." Immediately. How can you protest? You cannot protest. You have acted like dog, just become a dog. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Just like your medical science, you have infected the disease, you must suffer disease. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ, guṇa-saṅgaḥ. There's infection. Indian Doctor: Only in nirguṇa, a man can become nirguṇa by... Prabhupāda: Eh, don't talk of nirguṇa, first of all (laughter) become a dog. Indian Doctor: Because the only thing that can bring nirguṇa, then you may stop from getting a dog. If you do the bhakti. That is what I mean. Prabhupāda: Nirguṇa means bhakti. Nirguṇa means bhakti. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān [Bg. 14.26]. That is nirguṇa. When you are untouched by the three guṇas, then you are nirguṇa. That is not very easy job. That is not easy. Indian Doctor: Who? *Prabhupāda: Anyone. Take Mahatma Gandhi. He was so great student of Bhagavad*-gītā. Did he preach kṛṣṇa-bhakti? Bhagavad-gītā minus Kṛṣṇa, this is going on. Yes. Kaṁsa. Kill Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. What is the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? And everyone is preaching like this. Very worse condition of the world. Godlessness, and they'll suffer, there is no doubt. Prakṛti is very strong. You can do whatever you like, but kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya, that will act. You may be very proud of your so-called prestigious position, but the kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya... Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi... [Bg. 13.22]. Find out. *Guest: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān. *Prabhupāda: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān. He has to, he has to. Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān. So we are now put into the material prakṛti, and prakṛti-jān guṇān, we have to accept another body. Yaśomatīnandana: We are publishing monthly magazine every month now, one is coming out in a few days for Janmāṣṭamī. We have changed new house, very good house. Prabhupāda: What is the rent? Yaśomatīnandana: Land also... Prabhupāda: No, no, rent. Yaśomatīnandana: Rent is thousand rupees. One thousand rupees, plus tax for government. Prabhupāda: Plus twelve hundred? Yaśomatīnandana: No, plus two hundred tax. They are life members from Ahmedabad. They came to see Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. So give them place to stay. (end) *Evening Darçana-*-August 15, 1976, Bombay *Prabhupāda: Your mind, his business is to think something. But ordinarily the thinking is we accept something and reject something. Or accept the same thing and again reject the same thing. This business is going on. But if you think of question, there is no question of rejecting. Simply accepting. Then it is fixed up. Other things you accept and reject. Something we accept as "Oh, it is very good." Again, "No, no, it is not good." Accepting childish. Child is playing, one type of playing, "No, no, another one." That is material. And when you fix up, no rejection, simply accept it, that is Kṛṣṇa... So if you think of Kṛṣṇa... Just like here is temple. If you come and, as other devotees are doing, if you do, if you attend maṅgala-ārati, if you attend bhoga-ārati, always see, then offer obeisances, then naturally you will think of Kṛṣṇa. Then as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become purified. Just like if you touch with fire you remain always warm. Similarly man*-manā, if you always think of Kṛṣṇa, you gradually become fully Kṛṣṇized, Kṛṣṇa's devotee, Kṛṣṇa's servant. That is perfection. There is no difficulty. People will not do that. That is the difficulty. "Why shall I think of Kṛṣṇa? I shall think of this, I shall think of that." This is difficulty. Otherwise not difficulty. You have to think something, think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. (Hindi with guest) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Duṣkṛtinaḥ (Hindi) Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. (Hindi) Beating with shoes by māyā, that's all. (Hindi) "Come here, māyā, kick on me."(?) (Hindi) (someone enters) Oh, when you have come? Woman: This morning. Prabhupāda: I was thinking of you. Woman: Oh, yes? Prabhupāda: Did you go to Bangkok? Woman: No, I'm going very soon. *Prabhupāda: (converses in Hindi) Indian Māyāvādīs are more dangerous. (Hindi) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. Anyone who is influenced by Māyāvādī, he's doomed. He's finished. No more spiritual knowledge. He's doomed. Indian: How far the study of the scriptures helps us in being Kṛṣṇa conscious? *Prabhupāda: You read Bhagavad*-gītā. That is the essence of all scriptures. And follow it. It is, from the very beginning to the end, it is simply helping you. You haven't got to read many literatures. Just like those American, European boys, they are with me for the last, at most seven, eight years. Otherwise, three years, four years. So how are they becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious? It is not at all difficult. They are accepting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and becoming perfect. But in India: "Why shall I become Kṛṣṇa conscious? I have got this, I have got that." He'll bring thousands of Kṛṣṇa contributors, and he'll himself he has become Kṛṣṇa: "I am God." You see. He's so shameless that he says that "I am God." God is so cheap. Means shameless. He has no shame even, so how he says that he is God? Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. So-called jñānī means māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. Indian: Māyāvādī? *Prabhupāda: Māyayā apahṛta*-jñāna. Māyā (Hindi) Who is very, very much under the influence of māyā, he is Māyāvādī. Unless he is too much under the influence of māyā, how he can say that "I'm God"? Which is impossible. (Hindi) So many things which makes one rāja, and if you simply imagine, "I am rāja. "So how much rascal he is. Just see. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. (Hindi) Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. If one follow the Māyāvādīs and thinks that "I am God," then he is finished. His future is finished. (long conversation in Hindi) Indian: He can be fearless, free. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He's fearless. Natural. I have seen in my practical life. Long ago I was going in a tram car. So my son, he was two years old. The conductor: "Paisa, amsa." Bolte.(?)(Hindi) "Ha! Mana pitājī he!" (Hindi) He's confident, "My father is there. How he can get me down?" This is natural. Sanātha*-jīvitam. Kadāham aikāntika-nitya-kiṅkaraḥ praharṣayiṣyāmi. That is ānanda. That "I have no fear. I have got my father here. I have got my protector." Sanātha-jīvitam. That is... (Hindi) (end) *Evening Darçana(on night of arrival)-*-August 16, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: ...not Paris. Paris we have got rented. What is the? Devotee: It's a hundred miles away from Paris(?). Prabhupāda: It is a big name. What...? Hari-śauri: Lucay de La Male. *Prabhupāda: The interior, near Orleans. So we have got very nice, beautiful palace. We have installed Gaura*-Nitāi and Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. *Indian man: (Hindi) Vṛndāvana Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. Prabhupāda: Ha. Four hundred acres land, we are producing our vegetables, vegetables, fruits, and food grains, milk, and two hundred devotees, they are living very happily. (converses in Hindi) It is, for health it is very nice. (Hindi) Mahāṁśa: We were planning on your staying over there, and this last night this thing happened. So this morning we tried our best to complete your room, but then finally it was not coming off, so I... Indian man (1): It came as a surprise that one o'clock he says Prabhupāda will be staying here. We said nothing more than that, it will be my privilege, but I was just embarrassing, whether it would be inconvenient. Prabhupāda: Not inconvenient. But now we have comfort. For staying, it is the best place. There is no question about it. But because for the function we have come, so little too far away. Devotee: To be near the program and see what is going on. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore even it is little inconvenient. (Hindi conversation) What is the position now about this political situation? Indian man (1): Political situation remains the same. No elections, nothing for the time being. Prabhupāda: Mahāṁśa was saying that the businessman is in trouble. Indian man (1): Yes, business is not prospering since last two, three years. Business conditions are not picking up. Prabhupāda: What is the reason? Indian man (1): A general recession throughout the world. Prabhupāda: Depression. Not for any political reason. Indian man (1): No, on account of emergency also, Swamiji, mostly these people are afraid of (indistinct). Government has right powers, whereby without question, nobody has the power to question in the court. Prabhupāda: Why not? Indian man (1): If the arrest means even the constable can come and arrest. So all these foodgrain, many other things, after all there may be countervention in some way or the other. Rules which are made, terms and conditions laid out... Prabhupāda: How long this will continue? Indian man (2): They say up to February, because this February she must have elections. Otherwise, there should be an amendment in the Constitution to allow her to continue. Prabhupāda: That is being made. Indian man (2): This present government will serve no indication to that, that she will be allowed. Because as far as the Constitution, only one year extension can be given to Parliament, that nobody has followed through. Prabhupāda: One year? Indian man (2): One year extension to the existing Parliament is given as per Constitution. After one year it must dissolve if it is necessary. Prabhupāda: That is the Constitution. But that is going to be changed? Indian man (2): No that clause is not proposed to be changed. The changes which she is bringing in decision, that clause at least is not proposed to be changed. The last proposition she made... Indian man (1): We were surprised as usual. Indian man (3): There were some questions in Parliament about her. Indian man (1): Yes, it came in the Hindu... Prabhupāda: Let them inquire. Our... Everything is open secret. We are selling books throughout the whole world to the extent of six lakhs rupees per day. So money is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (1): Here only Swamiji, Prabhupāda, just now this... Prabhupāda: If you don't like this, you can close India, we can go all over the world. Indian man (2): Yes, there is a very big scope there. Indian man (3): No, but here even it would declare it. Minister of State. Only Communist have put those questions. Prabhupāda: Communists are seeing this movement as a great danger. Indian man (3): Yes, great danger for their... Prabhupāda: And we are spreading God consciousness. [break] By the grace of Kṛṣṇa, we have no debts. We are (indistinct) simply find out... (?) Now in Bombay I am getting from my Book Fund seven lakhs of rupees per month regularly. Indian man (3): Yes, ten lakhs per month is coming. Otherwise that work will not progress. Prabhupāda: We have given them three lakhs of rupees. What is that? Mahāṁśa: This is the newspaper article which came in Hindu, the Hindu paper, about the government asking something about us. Indian man (1): Communist party. *Mahāṁśa: "New Delhi, August 13th. Mr. Om Mehta, Minister of State for Home, informed the Rājya*-sabhā yesterday that government will order an inquiry into the activities of Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Society in Nadia District of West Bengal to find out whether there was something fishy about it." Hari-śauri: This is the same report Gopāla Kṛṣṇa read you. Mahāṁśa: You have read this, Prabhupāda? Indian man (3): It must have come in earlier. Prabhupāda: But the name is "Kṛṣṇa Caitanya." (laughs) Mahāṁśa: Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Society. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. *Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's ten*-thirty. Would you like anything to eat or drink before we take rest? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's puffies and peanuts and hot milk. Puffies. Prabhupāda: Puffies? Hari-śauri: Puffed rice. Prabhupāda: Puffed rice. Devotee: And some fried, and there's hot milk. *Prabhupāda: You can give me little puffed rice. (long pause) During wartime some, during noncooperation movement, so one firm, they were supplying printing machine, and, very famous firm, forgot the name. So they had 113 branches all over the world. So somebody questioned that "If you British boycott, if by boycott movement, if your firm is closed..." So the manager replied, "So what is wrong there? If one branch is closed, we'll still have 112 branches all over the world." So if the Communist party in India they want like that, so we have our own branches all over. (slapping sound*-for mosquito?) Don't kill. Indian man (3): This book sales all over the world, six lakhs of rupees? Prabhupāda: Sixty thousand... Indian man (3): Dollars. About five lakhs. Prabhupāda: Books. We are printing books five lakhs, three lakhs, one lakh, fifty thousand. Lowest twenty thousand. Indian man (3): Volumes. Prabhupāda: And repetition. Hari-śauri: They expect to sell twenty thousand copies in one week now. When a new book is published, that first batch of twenty thousand will sell in one week. Prabhupāda: So here is? [break] *Mahāṁśa: It was a touch*-and-go thing. It was, when we finished, just enough for the opening, and afterwards the work could go on for another one month, finishing work. It was coming out very, very beautiful. Everyone who comes in, they like the whole, the hall is very big and massive, it's very ornamental, and it will be very, very popular. Oh, yes, already people all over Andhra Pradesh know about it. We have done some good publicity. The press has given us some good covering. Tomorrow is a press conference. Their press conference starts at five. We are going to have a film show for them and prasāda and all that before Your Grace goes there. And then afterwards there is a program at Muthilal Rao's house. We had a program there before in his garden, if you remember. Prabhupāda: He is some ambassador? Mahāṁśa: Yes, for Somalia. Now he has come back. He just, he's very, very favorable for you. Because, we were talking and he was blasting all the Śaṅkarācāryas, he was blasting all the different gurus and everyone, and he says the only guru is Śrīla Prabhupāda. He says he met our devotees in Africa, he's been to London and other temples in Europe. Prabhupāda: Oh, he has seen our temples. *Mahāṁśa: He has seen our temples in Europe and Africa and he was very, very impressed. So when I told him that Prabhupāda is coming for the inauguration, he said, "You must give me the privilege again to have a program." So tomorrow evening there will be a program there, and on the 18th morning at ten o'clock, between ten and ten*-thirty is the prāṇa-pratiṣṭhā. The chief minister is coming there as the chief guest, and it will stay till about twelve o'clock. I wanted to have a feast for all the people as we did in Vṛndāvana, but it's not possible here because there's no space. The area around the temple is very little. So we have made these kinds of packages with different items, just like a little prasāda feast, small. We'll be giving everyone who comes, about ten thousand packages we are preparing. We'll be distributing prasāda like that. And then in the evening there's a program again, Janmāṣṭamī program, this is for public. The morning program we have restricted only to invitees, because it will be so crowded otherwise. This is one problem which I am trying to figure out, how to face of managing the crowd. The space around the temple is very small, so we cannot have very big, huge assembly. We have to figure out something about that. I'm still trying to think what to do. Prabhupāda: There is no question of management. Anyone comes, if you have made packages for distribution, give a package. Indian man (4): There will be a lot of confusion, Prabhupāda, there. And what we should do in that passage, we should make them sit, as we were discussing, about six hundred or so. We should make the passage and put daddis(?) these on that and make all the visitors and guests sit on that, and immediately after pratiṣṭhā is over, installation of the Deities and all, one by one they should be allowed to go have darśana and come back. When they return, give them prasāda. Not in package, bhoogi (?) sweet, it is... Prabhupāda: Whatever you want to arrange. When they're going back. That's all. Indian man (4): That way there won't be any rush. Otherwise, they will be stampeding the temple. Then nobody would have to rush in the temple. This is how they did at this Veṅkateśvara temple Birlas have constructed. They, though I was not there, someone was saying that all the guests were made to sit. Whoever was coming, they were made to sit, and then after all the distribution, everything was over, they were just made to one by one go around the Deity. Prabhupāda: You make that arrangement. Indian man (4): Yes. If there are no rains that arrangement will go through very nicely. Only if there is no rain. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mahāṁśa: If it rains, then there will be a problem. Everyone will try and rush into the temple. Indian man (4): In Janmāṣṭamī day usually many times it rains also. Prabhupāda: So where is the puffed rice? Somebody is bringing it? Harikeśa: Pālikā is... Prabhupāda: Why Pālikā, huh? Harikeśa: Pālikā is in the kitchen taking care of it. Prabhupāda: No, bring it to... Why you making there, puffed rice? There is... It is too late now. (long pause) So what she is doing? Harikeśa: I will check. Mahāṁśa: She is cooking prasāda. Prabhupāda: Cooking? What she is cooking? Mahāṁśa: Only puffed rice. Prabhupāda: No, no, what she is cooking? Mahāṁśa: I'll just... Hari-śauri: Here it comes. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (Hindi) (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 16, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: Vairāgya is there. Dr. Patel: Sir, shall I say, vairāgyaṁ jñeyam akati kṛṣṇa avasyati.(?) *Prabhupāda: Yes, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. This is vairāgya. So unless he has attained this stage, virakti, then where is bhakti? Bhakti is so powerful that it brings automatically vairāgya. But if there is no vairāgya, where is bhakti? Understand it now? Yes. It does not depend that you have to practice vairāgya separately. But if you are actually bhakta, then vairāgya is there. If there is no vairāgya, there is no bhakti. It is sahajiyā*-bhāva. *Guest: In other words, vairāgya is a by*-product of bhakti. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated, *Dr. Patel: Bhakti*-avyabhicāriṇī. *Prabhupāda: Avyabhicāriṇī, yes. Māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena sevate. Avyabhicāreṇa. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. He is above three guṇas. So if I am still under the modes of material nature, that means I'm not in avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti. This is the warning. Therefore Lord Buddha rejected Vedas. Dr. Patel: Because, sir, in the name of Veda people were misbehaving. Prabhupāda: *Vedas*, when Lord Buddha wanted stop animal killing, these rascals came with *Vedas*. "*Vedas* there is sacrifice, there is animal killing." So he thought that these rascals will create botheration. By bringing *Vedas*, there is... He said, "I don't care for it." Guest: Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha*-vegaṁ, pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. Etān vegān yo viṣa... You are manipulated by the udara-vegam, upastha-vegam. First there is test: etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ [NoI 1]. Then for him Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. He has got three dozen sevā-dāsī, and living in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. My Guru Mahārāja wanted to publish Govinda-līlāmṛta. He asked permission of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So first of all Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, "I'll tell you some day." And when he reminded, he said, "Yes you can print one copy. If you are so much anxious to print it, print one copy. You'll read and you will see that you have printed. Not for distribution." So we are printing all these books for understanding properly. Not that "Here is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Let us go." Jump over like monkey. "Here is rāsa-līlā. Immediately..." *Acyutānanda: Even in Kṛṣṇa book rāsa*-līlā should not be told in public. Prabhupāda: No, why? Kṛṣṇa book must be there, in the book must be there. Acyutānanda: But in public... *Prabhupāda: But you should go gradually. You should go gradually. You first of all understand Kṛṣṇa, then kṛṣṇa*-līlā. If you have not understood Kṛṣṇa, then you'll think Kṛṣṇa's rāsa-līlā is just like we mix with young women. And that becomes as polluted. Because they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]. Kṛṣṇa understanding so easy? If you do not understand Kṛṣṇa how can you go to the Kṛṣṇa's confidential activities? Acyutānanda: Some of the devotees, they said that it is for liberated souls. So they said, "Well, we are all liberated." Prabhupāda: Yes. Liberated for going to hell. Devotee: In your Kṛṣṇa book, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've given such clear explanations along with the stories of Kṛṣṇa that it's very difficult to misinterpret, because you use such clear explanation. Prabhupāda: No, you read all the books first of all. Then you'll be able to understand. Yaśomatīnandana: Even theoretical understanding that Kṛṣṇa is transcendental will not help unless one... Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa will lift, samaste, Kṛṣṇa lifted the hill. Now how you can become equal with Kṛṣṇa? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about if some devotees, I know they want to come to Vṛndāvana... Prabhupāda: Every devotee, they must follow the rules and regulations, that's all. Devotee: And engage in practical service to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane āśā **. Has he taken order from Guru Mahārāja that "I am going to jump over Rādhā-kuṇḍa"? Why does he go? Daily singing, guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete, āra nā kariha **. Why should he desire like that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are some devotees who always want... *Prabhupāda: They are not devotees. Rascals. Don't say "some devotees." Devotees will hear: guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane **. *Acyutānanda: They also wear the Rādhā*-kuṇḍa māṭi, tilaka. *Prabhupāda: There is no harm, but they should understand what is Rādhā*-kuṇḍa and how to deal with Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī showed how to live in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau. He was circumambulating Rādhā-kuṇḍa, falling down, making a mark. That is Rādhā-kuṇḍa vāsī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Not only counted holy names, but offering obeisances so many hundred times in... That is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. He, so much vairāgya he showed. He can take bath in the Rādhā-kuṇḍa. First of all, do this like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca yau **. *Yaśomatīnandana: In other words, first one should understand Bhagavad*-gītā. Then gradually the First Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Then ultimately Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Without that, simply taking Caitanya-caritāmṛta... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavad*-gītā is the entrance. Then Bhāgavata is graduate and Caitanya-caritāmṛta... This is the step by step. But if one is sincere everything becomes revealed. He does not commit mistake. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Some devotees, especially in Vṛndāvana, who will always try to run to Hardwar, Jagannātha Purī, always parikrama of holy places. Prabhupāda: It is good to go to holy places. Acyutānanda: They go independently. Yaśomatīnandana: Unauthorized. Acyutānanda: They go more to avoid service than to become purified. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But there's no harm if they just... *Prabhupāda: You see you can become independent, nobody can check you. Everyone is independent. Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. But one who wants to be regulated, he has to surrender. That is voluntary. Otherwise, everyone is free to do whatever he likes. And those who are surrendered souls, they will wait for the instruction of guru and do accordingly. That is the proper... guru*-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha **. That is wanted. Otherwise, everyone can remain independent. All living beings are independent. Even if I say that you do not do it, you are independent, you can do it. Even Kṛṣṇa gives independence to Arjuna. Yathecchasi tathā kuru. "I have told you everything. Now you do whatever you like." So that depends on the candidate. Everyone is free to do anything, but if he's actually serious then he has to do guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete āra nā kariha **. This is... Acyutānanda: What prompts the soul to misuse his independence or improperly use...? Prabhupāda: Because he has got little independence. Yathecchasi tathā, he has got this. Acyutānanda: Why do some misuse it and some never misuse it? Prabhupāda: That depends on him. If one is determined that "I shall only act according to the advice of my Guru Mahārāja," then he's perfect. One has to submit like Arjuna said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. Otherwise he'll argue. *Devotee: Even nitya*-siddha has guru. *Yaśomatīnandana: Even the liberated soul, nitya*-siddha. *Prabhupāda: Liberated soul never says that "I am liberated." As soon as he says "liberated," he's a rascal. A liberated soul will never say that "I am liberated." That is liberated. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is God*-guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan [Cc. Ādi 7.71]. "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a fool number one, and he has chastised Me." He's God. This is the example. If one remains always a servant ever-lastingly of guru, then he is liberated. And as soon as he thinks that he is liberated, he's a rascal. That is the teaching of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Guru more mūrkha dekhi'. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is mūrkha? Why He's posing Himself that mūrkha? "I am fool number one." That means that is liberation. You must be ready always to be chastised by guru. Then he's liberated. And as soon as he thinks that "I am beyond this chastisement, I am liberated," he's a rascal. Why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan? This is sahajiyā-vāda. He is thinking, "Oh I have become liberated. I don't require any direction of my guru. I'm liberated." Then he's rascal. Why this Gauḍīya Maṭha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru. He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that "This man should be the next ācārya." But these people, just after his passing away they began to fight, who shall be ācārya. That is the failure. They never thought, "Why Guru Mahārāja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be ācārya?" They wanted to create artificially somebody ācārya and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Mahārāja wanted to appoint somebody as ācārya, why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insist upon it. They declared some unfit person to become ācārya. Then another man came, then another, ācārya, another ācārya. So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Mahārāja. That is perfection. And as soon as he learns the Guru Mahārāja is dead, "Now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and I become guru." Then he's finished. Yaśomatīnandana: They kept fighting, and when the real ācārya emerged they all became wonderstruck. They all became baffled. Now they all know in their hearts. They all know it. I can see. They all know that who is real ācārya. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The real ācārya emerges by his own preaching? Devotee: Yes. (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Press Interview at Muthilal Rao's House-*-August 17, 1976, Hyderabad *Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, the first beginning of the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā you have to take. (aside:) No children. Otherwise it will be disturbed. When Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as the spiritual master, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. First of all, he was talking like friends. When he saw "The friendly talking will not help us," so Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as his spiritual master. Then as spiritual master He said, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase: [Bg. 2.11] "My dear Arjuna, you are lamenting on the subject matter which is not the subject matter of lamentation, and you are talking like a very learned man." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. This body, either alive or dead, it is not a serious subject matter of study, neither a learned man laments over it. This is the subject matter of Bhagavad-gītā, or spiritual knowledge. Those who are not human being, according to Vedic śāstra anyone who has no self-realization, he's animal. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. If one is identifying with this body, "I am this body which is made of three elements, kapha, pitta, vāyu..." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke. Tri-dhātuke, this combination of three elements. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. He's animal. So practically now in this age especially, everyone is identifying with this body. That is the basic principle of nationalism, communism, or this "ism" or that "ism." The bodily conception of life. And according to Vedic version, anyone who is identifying with this body, he is animal. So under the circumstances-(aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa*-we are trying to revive the spiritual education of the human society. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. What is spirit soul, what is its identification, what is God, what is our relationship with Him, how to work on that plan. Then we become happy. Otherwise you may make various plan on material basis, it will never be successful and there is no question of happiness. Because the basic principle is lost. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. This was spoken by Śukadeva Gosvāmī to Mahārāja Parīkṣit, that śrotavyādīni rājendra nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ [SB 2.1.2]. The subject matter of hearing, there are many thousands for persons who has no self-realization. Guest (1): (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: India is already there, but suppressed them. Bhagavad*-gītā is there, but are you preaching Bhagavad-gītā? Why you don't preach this great science? Why you are disinterested? Answer this question. Guest (1): But who has to preach? Prabhupāda: You have to preach, because you are born in India. Guest (2): But you yourself didn't preach it here. First you went to USA. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is preaching. But the thing is that it is not in India, not outside India. But it is the duty of every Indian to do it. I tried preach it beginning from India, but nobody joined. Still they are not joining. What can I do? *Interviewer (3): But how to make the people realize importance of Bhagavad*-gītā? *Prabhupāda: If you don't realize here is Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, Bhagavad-gītā was spoken in India. If you don't take interest, who can induce you? If you don't take interest at all, those who are preaching Bhagavad-gītā, they are making different interpretation. Interviewer (3): I am a layman, I do not know the importance... Prabhupāda: You are not a layman, you are a representative of paper. Guest (2): He doesn't mean that he's a layman, but suppose he is a layman... Prabhupāda: Layman, he must go to a person who is experienced. Guest (2): But I am so preoccupied with my... Prabhupāda: You are taking so many education... Guest (2): ...that I don't have to time to contemplate or study such things. Don't you think it's the responsibility of people like you to... Prabhupāda: That means you are not properly trained up. The thing is, the first business of human being is to inquire about the spiritual subject matter. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the Vedānta philosophy. Now we have got this human form of body, it is your duty to inquire about the spiritual subject matter. But if your guardians, if your parents, if your government does not teach you, then it is our misfortune. Interviewer (3): Do you want this to become a part of the educational system here? *Prabhupāda: This is the first education. Otherwise it is animal. Animal does not require absolute education. Animal is not able to understand what is self, what is God. But a man can. Therefore the man's first business is to understand this self*-realization. Interviewer (3): Do you think it will come to India via the West now? Prabhupāda: I don't follow. Interviewer (3): Will it come to India via the West? Prabhupāda: India is already there. You are neglecting. Why don't you admit that you are neglecting? Interviewer (3): Will that neglect go, disappear, through the West? Prabhupāda: How will that? If you don't like it, how it will go? *Interviewer (4): No, no, my colleague's point is, we have not been accepting, we are not able to understand Bhagavad*-gītā on our own. Just because first Western people understand, and because of their... *Prabhupāda: No, no, you have neglected. My charge is that you have neglected. Bhagavad*-gītā is there. Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in India. Bhagavad-gītā is there. I think every home has got a Bhagavad-gītā, but if you do not study it, you neglect it, that is your fault. Interviewer (3): No, that is because it is not part of the educational system. Prabhupāda: Because you have it. It is the first educational system. Interviewer (3): No, but the system that we have here... Prabhupāda: That you have introduced. That is your unfortunate case. Interviewer (4): No, that is because of historical reasons. We were ruined by a foreign... Prabhupāda: If the real subject matter of study you neglect, that is your negligence, your misfortune. Interviewer (3): Now how to rectify this... Prabhupāda: You can take it now. You are simply arguing. Why don't you take it? That means you don't want to take it. There is the thing, but if you want, you can take it. But if you don't want, then how we can help you? Interviewer (5): On you return from West do you feel..., do you think your movement in India has gained ground or created consciousness... Prabhupāda: I am not interested in any particular country. This is meant for the whole human society. As you think "India" or "America," we do not think like that. We take the opportunity wherever it is possible to introduce more and more we take that opportunity. Interviewer (5): What is the response in India? *Prabhupāda: Indian response we have seen when we held meeting in Calcutta, Bombay, Madras, thousands and thousands of people come here to hear about Bhagavad*-gītā. Inherently they are inclined, but there is no systematic education. That is the defect. Now the Janmāṣṭamī day is coming I think every Indian will observe Kṛṣṇa Janmāṣṭamī, without any fail. But they are not being educated systematically about Kṛṣṇa. They know Kṛṣṇa, they are inclined to Kṛṣṇa, the education of Kṛṣṇa is there, but nobody is interested to give them properly, systematically. That is the difficulty. Interviewer (4): How is the response in the West? Prabhupāda: Of course it is a foreign thing for them, but still they are coming and taking it very seriously. Interviewer (5): Do you think they are taking to it because it is novel? *Prabhupāda: Huh? No, many novel things go from here, but they are sticking to it. They are now seriously taking to it. They understand that this is a great science and we are publishing books. We have already published eighty*-four books like that. Eighty-four of four hundred pages. And you'll be surprised that throughout the whole world we are selling books about sixty thousand dollars a day. That means six lakhs of rupees. That is the basic income for our expenditure, 102 centers all over the world. Interviewer (3): A central minister the Parliament recently said that he will conduct a probe to see if there was anything fishy in this... Prabhupāda: Therefore I am bringing before you, before probing, you try to understand what is our income. We are selling these books six lakhs rupees daily, and we are spending it fifty percent for reprinting the books and fifty percent for expanding temples all over the world. This is our activities. Now you probe it or understand it. Interviewer (3): This is the only source of revenue for the society? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer (4): Fifty percent books and for temples fifty percent? Prabhupāda: Fifty percent for expanding temples and fifty percent for reprinting books. Interviewer (4): Do you have any other source, like donations or something like that for your movement? Prabhupāda: Very small. Mostly we have got a few cases of donation of land and house. Not very large sum or money, never. Interviewer (4): But I thought Henry Ford has given some... I thought the Ford family has given some huge donation. Prabhupāda: Ford, he has given us two, three houses, not donation. But we have purchased two, three houses by the money of Mr. Ford, Alfred Ford, he's my disciple. *Interviewer (4): Some members the Parliament says, the movement is in some anti*-Indian activities. What do you...? *Prabhupāda: So you are intelligent man, you see what is that anti*-Indian. We are spreading Indian culture, and this is anti-Indian. How foolish they are. Just see. We are spreading Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and it is anti-Indian. Do you think like that? *Interviewer (5): What if somebody is using this as a cover*-up? Prabhupāda: Huh? But if you have no eyes to see inside, you see the cover only. What can I do? (laughter) If you are so blind, what can I do? Interviewer (5): What has the (indistinct) doing about solving world problems... *Prabhupāda: Every problem can be solved by Bhagavad*-gītā. Every problem can be solved by Bhagavad-gītā. You put any problem and there is answer. Interviewer (5): How this movement has helped in solving any specific issue, any special problem? Prabhupāda: We think the real problem is they do not know what they are. Interviewer (4): You mean to say that this should become part, an integral part of the educational system? Prabhupāda: That is the most important part. If you do not know what you are, then you are talking like a nonsense. If you have lost your identity, then what is your education? Interviewer (4): No, but we should realize the politicians... Prabhupāda: It is not a question of politician or economics. It is general education, that you must know your identity, what you are. Then knowledge... Interviewer (4): I am living under the system, and that system is... Prabhupāda: But if the system is wrong, then you are living wrongly. You are misled. Interviewer (4): That means the movement should make an attack on the politicians, people who make the decisions. *Prabhupāda: No. Politician, of course, it is, in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. This system, this science, was understood by the rājarṣi, kings who were as good as ṛṣis, rājarṣis. So where is that politician, politician as good as a ṛṣi? That is the difficulty. It is meant for rājarṣi. Rāja and ṛṣi. Just like Janaka Mahārāja, Parīkṣit Mahārāja, Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, Prahlāda Mahārāja, they were kings, but they were at the same time so great and saintly, they were called rājarṣi, and this is a subject matter for the rājarṣis. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1], manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt, uh... Harikeśa: Vivasvān manave prāha. *Prabhupāda: Ah, vivasvān manave prāha manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. So where is rājarṣi? That is the difficulty. Where is that brāhmaṇa, where is that kṣatriya, where is that system? Now anyone can capture the political power by hook and crook, that is another thing. But it is meant for the rājarṣi, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Where is their training? The politician, where he is trained up as ṛṣi? There is no such service. Interviewer (4): Has there been any official opposition to your movement in any country? Prabhupāda: No, no. Interviewer (3): Your movement is spreading largely. Do you think that it will be welcome in the Communist countries? Prabhupāda: Yes, I have been in Moscow. I saw many learned professors. We are selling our books there. Interviewer (3): You are selling your books in Moscow? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Everyone, every intelligent man will accept. We are selling books in East Germany, which is Communist. They are taking our books. Interviewer (4): Are there any centers of the society in the Communist world? Prabhupāda: We have not tried so far. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Interviewer (4): Maybe such a thing is not allowed. Prabhupāda: No, we have gone there, but there are difficulties to start. People are interested. Everywhere people are interested. Interviewer (4): What is the response in the Islamic countries? Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got many students. In Iran we have got center and there are many Muslims. They are our student. Interviewer (5): What is the response in Iran? Prabhupāda: Iran? The response, they are hearing, but some of them, they are already converted student. Our head of the institution in Iran is Ātreya Ṛṣi. His name was Attar (indistinct). Interviewer (5): You have some project here. Can you kindly explain what is that? *Prabhupāda: Our project is Bhagavad*-gītā, learn Bhagavad-gītā and apply it practically in your life. Interviewer (5): (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes, we are trying to establish an institution in Kurukṣetra to teach Bhagavad*-gītā in practical life and inviting students all over the world. That is our program. We have asked for some land from the government. So if the government gives us the land, we can try it also. Interviewer (5): (indistinct) Hyderabad? Prabhupāda: The same program. Interviewer (4): Here also you have some land or something, I was told. Prabhupāda: Here? Interviewer (5): In Hyderabad. Interviewer (4): You have some project? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are trying to... (to devotee:) Land, what is that land? You can give the description. Devotee: It is near (indistinct) village. It has not yet been confirmed, it is under procedure, but we are trying to develop a big project there, depending on formal procedures... Prabhupāda: Our project is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Come here, live peacefully, keep your body fit, and work for yourself, you produce your own food, you produce your own cloth, don't be very much anxious for artificial necessities, and save time, and be advanced in spiritual life. Interviewer (3): Some sort of religious epithet. *Prabhupāda: It is not exactly religious. You have taken by it because we misunderstand the meaning of religion. Religion generally understood as a kind of cult and faith. But in the Vedic literature, religion means the characteristic. Just like sugar is sweet, that is its religion. If sugar becomes pungent, that is not sugar's characteristic. Similarly, a human being must be God conscious. So that God consciousness is religion. Because in the human form of life one can understand what is God, and if he does not become, he remains an animal. Animal cannot understand. So therefore his business is how to athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is not our manufactured word, this is the Vedānta words. Atha, now we have got this human form body, based on that transmigration of the soul after millions and millions of years, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19], you have got this human form of life, now it is your business to inquire about the Absolute Truth. This is the business of human life. And āhāra*-nidra-bhaya-maithuna, how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy sex life and how to defend, that is animal business. If you remain busy with these four principles of bodily necessities of life, āhāra-nidra-bhaya-maithuna, then you remain on he animal platform. Beyond that, when you inquire about God, that is human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. So we are trying to raise him from this animal life to human life. This is our business. Interviewer (3): So you help people inquire God. Prabhupāda: Yes, because that is business. Athāto brahma jijñāsā But they are forgetting that, that there is necessity of inquiring about God. To inquire about my relationship with God, what is God, they are neglecting this. Not only here, all over the world, it is becoming more and more acute. Interviewer (4): So in relation to your movement, where does Marxism stand? Prabhupāda: It is not my movement, it is the Vedic culture. Don't think... If you say "my movement," I have manufactured something. Not. This is the Vedic culture. Interviewer (4): No, from the standpoint of this culture... Prabhupāda: Standpoint is that I am trying to revive the Vedic culture, that's all. That is my business. I am not manufacturing anything. Interviewer (4): No, but how do you explain the advance that Marxism has made in the world? Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: How do you explain the advance that Marxism has made? Prabhupāda: There are so many "isms." If I go to criticize and study, it will take most of our time. Better positively present what you want. If you like you can take it, that's all. There are so many "isms." When we become animal, then we manufacture so many "isms." Interviewer (4): So is it correct from what that any culture... Prabhupāda: It is correct because Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa is infallible. We are not manufacturing anything, so it is correct because Kṛṣṇa says. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7], He is the supreme authority. But we have no faith in Kṛṣṇa, therefore we manufacture something other than Kṛṣṇa. That is our misfortune. Interviewer (4): You mean to say that any system that doesn't subscribe to this movement has no future at all? Prabhupāda: No. Interviewer (4): But that is (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: Yes, that we say practically. What is the use of "ism," manufactured by imperfect senses. We have got defects. Our..., we commit mistake. Who is the person who does not commit mistake? None. We accept this body, which I am not, this is called pramada. Pramada vipralipsa,(?) without any perfect knowledge you want to teach. That is cheating. Vipralipsa. And karnapada(?), our senses are imperfect. So how you can give perfect knowledge with all this imperfection? Unless you become perfect, you cannot give perfect knowledge. So any knowledge given by any imperfect person, we reject immediately, useless waste of time. And actually that is the fact. If you are blind, you cannot see. You say, "Here is the elephant, a big stambha, pillar," by seeing his leg, by touching his leg. But elephant is just like a pillar? That is our speculation. Andha*-kūpa, what is called? Kūpa-maṇḍūka. A frog in the well is trying to study Atlantic Ocean. *Devotee: Kūpa*-maṇḍūka. *Prabhupāda: Kūpa*-maṇḍūka. What you know about the Atlantic Ocean who's living within three feet of land, water? Kūpa-maṇḍūka. Interviewer (?): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Upastha means... Interviewer (?): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Samāsa. So we are imperfect, just like they are going to study the planets. What they will study from here? This kind of knowledge has no value, speculation. Interviewer (4): That is something inborn, isn't it? That scientists... *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your inquisiti... You have got born inquisitiveness, jijñāsu, that is especially manifested in human form of life. So for jijñāsu it is recommended, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. You have to go to the proper person. So that we are not doing. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. These are the Vedic injunctions. Jijñāsu is our natural instinct, but we go to who has no knowledge. That is the difficulty. We are misled. But the knowledge is there already, the Vedic knowledge is there. There are so many Vedas, Upaniṣads, Vedānta*-sūtra, and Bhagavad-gītā, Rāmāyaṇa, Mahābhārata, Purāṇas, but there is no systematic study of this literature. We are neglecting. *Interviewer (5): Swamiji, another doubt. In this mahā*-mantra that you publicize, Hare Kṛṣṇa, it is Kṛṣṇa that is emphasized. (indistinct) emphasis His Bhāgavata and other things are popularized. Is it corresponding... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything. If you have studied Bhagavad*-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. So Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. If you accept it that this is supreme name of God, Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma. Interviewer (4): The same claim is made by Durgā also. Prabhupāda: What is that? Interviewer (4): (indistinct)-śakti cult, they also give you the same... Prabhupāda: Yes, Durgā, we say *Host: With your permission I must thank with the permission of Swamiji, my friends, I welcome you to my humble house. Today, though you are all very, very busy, but you have made it a point to come and listen to Swamiji speak to you theory, lessons, and his belief and faith. It depends how we take it. Because I have faith in him, I have faith in his teachings, that is why, I being a politician, I being a member of Parliament and the legislative assembly, deputy minister and the ambassador, I have requested and begged of him to come to my humble house to spread his knowledge, which he is giving to the other parts of the world. Last time he visited in a very similar manner, we have got a small gathering here. So at that time I hope you will pardon me, I couldn't think of you all, thinking that, you know, the journalist friends are my good friends, and they are very knowledgeable friends, and that is why they can put so many questions. And by putting so many questions will get the answers by that we are enlightened. So that is why now it is the time for Swamiji to go for maṅgala-ārati. He has given me something. I am a student of Bhagavad*-gītā. My guruji is there, he's doing pūjā. He has given me something when I met him, when I heard him, he has given me a gupta-dāna. That is dātavyam iti yad dānaṁ dīyate 'nupakāriṇe deśe kāle ca pātre ca tad dānaṁ sāttvikaṁ smṛtam. It is in the Seventeenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, it is as far as sukṛta is concerned. So that is why he has given me something that indirectly gupta-dāna. So I said always I should follow. Unfortunately, I could not meet him. Recently when I was..., till recently when I was an ambassador I was to go to Nairobi, I was in Somalia, but unfortunately things couldn't materialize. But now if at all I get an opportunity of going abroad I shall be visiting all the institutions, their organizations, their temples, because I am a member of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, life member. I have canvassed, some have become. Canvassed means I've just put a word. Some have become, I who requested, some of my friends who have not become, to become members of Kṛṣṇa conscious, permanent members, life members, like Mrs. Yamuna is here. Yamuna's husband, Raman Rao is here. And I would like you also to become, others also to become. Prabhupāda: I was explaining, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. If the big big politicians, head of the state, they understand, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate [Bg. 3.21], others will follow. *Host: Others will follow. So I must thank you for coming. I request you, if you have little time, you could sit there and listen to Swamiji, other people also are coming, and have little prasādam and go, see, after having come to my humble house, see my pūjā room also, how humbly I keep that pūjā room, so that we learn, we must learn to keep up our religion. When we become educated, when we become ministers, ambassadors, we forget our.... When we become big people, very big people, our eyes jump up and go to the head here. When we become rich people and money people*-who is speaking to you? Not a rich man. A man who comes from a humble family. The man who was born in a tiled-roofed house. So I have never changed. My, among my friends, you have seen a friends sitting here, and also the village which I come from, he has seen where I staying and where I am staying now. But I am not changed. But at the same time I have not forgotten my religion. I have not changed my faith. Many people say you must know that I drink. Am I a drunkard? Am I a trouble-maker? No. Sometimes in the society it becomes a necessity. I am not a sādhu, I am not a sannyāsī, I have not renounced the world. Many of you have drunk with me. Some of you at least. So what? Am I a sinner, if I remember my religion, if I pray my God, if I pray my Lord? No. I do not dupe anybody, do not cheat anybody, do not harm anybody, do not hurt anybody. That's what I have been following. That is why I think my God has been very very kind to me. That is why, because of Lord Kṛṣṇa, all of you have been very kind to me throughout... Can you imagine a poor man born in a poor family winning four elections without money? People spend lakhs. Lord knows in 1952 how much money have I spent? Two thousand rupees. '58, '57 maybe twelve thousand rupees. '62 maybe about forty to forty-five thousand. Of course, '67 was expensive for me. I had to sell away my humble house. So this is all faith. Faith in God, faith in country, that is patriotism. Without patriotism we talk and yap a lot. "What do you think of this? What do you think of this?" My country is my country, no other country. This is my country. That is deśa-bhakti. All people say that, you know, "My religion is my religion, that is my bhakti. But my country comes first." That is known as patriotism. In Urdu it is said, (indistinct) "We will die for the nation one day." If you remember, my friends, I was one of those in 1962 offered to join as a soldier against Chinese aggression. Not only offered, I have submitted my resignation to Jawaharlal Nehru, which was not accepted because of certain problems at that time. Because of my age, because of my age, and also the Bilateral Talks, Colombo Proposals came. Never mind. That should be the spirit among us, and particularly youngsters, particularly youngsters. They must not forget their religion, they must not forget their country. So anyway, leaders come and go, we all come and go. I am not a leader, please don't put me as a leader. I am one of the humblest workers in this country. I am coming from the humblest section of the society also. The leaders come. (Hindi) If you want to translate you translate, (Hindi). But the country remains (Hindi). (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 17, 1976, Hyderabad Harikeśa: Speak loudly. Hari-śauri: It's very noisy. Mahāṁśa: This is Dr. Ghosh. This is Visukeran(?) Agarwal, one of our very close friends in Hyderabad. He's a very close friend in Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: I think I have seen you. Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Dr. Ghosh. (conversation in Bengali) Dr. Ghosh: And he knows about Parikana(?). It's a very wonderful place. Prabhupāda: I shall go there. Mahāṁśa: There are very, very big... Dr. Ghosh: (Bengali conversation with Prabhupāda) Prabhupāda: Do you think they are ordinary calf? Mahāṁśa: To be embraced by Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: They are associates. They are associating with Lord as calf, as cow. Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ [Bs. 5.37]. Nija-rūpa. (Guest speaks in Bengali, Prabhupāda English) In Vṛndāvana, the trees, the land, the water-everyone, ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ. That is expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Cit-śakti. There are three energies: spiritual, material, and marginal. So Vṛndāvana affairs means expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Sac-cid-ānanda. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Rasa, mellow. Everyone is trying to relish some mellow. Here in this material world we get family to taste some mellows. One kind of mellow is wife, one kind of mellow are children, one kind of mellow is the servants, one kind of mellow is the friends, one kind of mellow is the properties. They are all mellows, rasa. Unless there is some taste, why one should be hankering after all these things? Why one is hankering after some woman or some man or some friends or for children? One who has got no children, he's hankering after some child. He's expecting, "When I shall get a child?" The rasa. There is husband-wife rasa, but there is no rasa of the child. Therefore they are praying, "When we shall get a child?" So there is another rasa. So raso vai saḥ. He is the reservoir of rasas. So if we derive all the rasas from the Supreme, because He is the reservoir of rasas. *Mahāṁśa: Akhila*-rasāmṛta-sindhu. *Prabhupāda: Akhila*-rasāmṛta, yes. Akhila-rasāmṛta-sindhu. So you can have all the rasas. That is the origin of bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. In bhakti, that rasa, you become in the ocean of rasa. You're hankering after rasas. There is a Vedic injunction, raso vai saḥ labdhvānandi ānandī.(?) One who has got the rasa, labdhvānandi, then he gets the real ānanda. That ānanda-cinmaya-rasa expansion is Kṛṣṇa's calves, cows, gopī friends, cowherd boy friends, Nanda, Yaśodāmāyi, so many. So to be Kṛṣṇa conscious means to participate with these rasas. It is not dry. It is not dry like, simply so 'ham, so'ham. So 'ham, they do not know the meaning. So 'ham means I belong to the same rasa. I also eligible to enjoy the same rasa. But Kṛṣṇa is... [break] ...and the calves, the cows are enjoying the rasa as predominated. Just like husband and wife, they are enjoying, both. But one is enjoying as the husband, predominator. The husband is forcefully dragging the wife. She's also... While she is dragged by force, she enjoys. That is another rasa. But there is rasa. Combined together it becomes rasa. Similarly Kṛṣṇa does not enjoy this material. This material rasa is the perverted reflection of that cinmaya-rasa. So we have to get ourselves nil of all these material rasas and we have to be situated in the cinmaya. Then our, ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Then our life is perfect. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Rasa is there. Here perverted reflection. This perverted reflection... My Guru Mahārāja used to say to taste milk in white lime water. White lime water, it looks like milk. But it is not milk. It is different thing. Similarly, we are trying to taste the rasa of milk in lime water. Therefore we are baffled. Guest: That is true. Whole universe is rasa. Even in Mars they're trying to find humidity. What is humidity, rasa. Everything is moving on the rasa only. We are floating on rasa. Prabhupāda: Our aim of understanding this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not a sentiment. It is a great science, great science. Otherwise how we are writing so many books? If it was a dry... Guest: Nothing happens in dryness. *Prabhupāda: Why people are accepting our books? You'll be surprised we are selling book to the extent of six lakhs of rupees per day. Daily. Daily we are selling six lakhs of rupees' worth all over the world. So people think philosophy, religion is dry subject matter. If it was dry subject matter, how they could purchase so many books? It is ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa. They are getting for the first time. Here is real ānanda. Therefore they are appreciating. Everyone, learned circle, they are appreciation. In (indistinct) foreign circles. So, there was no such literature. It is the first time. Śrīmad-bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇaṁ vaiṣṇavānām... So unless, they're really relishing some rasa, how they are purchasing? This is the first distribution of ānanda-cinmaya-rasa throughout the whole world, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So I am very happy that you are also joining. Let us join together. Guest: We can consult and fix a date, what suits Prabhupāda best, then I will arrange for the rest at that date. Mahāṁśa: When are you leaving Hyderabad? Guest: I'm leaving just after... You see I was leaving long ago, but he was coming. So I will leave 19th morning plane. That is the day after the Janmāṣṭamī tomorrow. Night, whatever festivity I'll be here. I think there will be some saṅkīrtana also. After that, early morning, I'll catch the plane and go up to Madras and there I shall fly again to Mathila.(?) It is not very far, as you are thinking, but (Bengali) ...to recharge. Because they are recharging the battery of the urban line. But they also will be recharging that battery in a nice cosmic place. *Prabhupāda: Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa, our rasa, it can be tasted by the topmost intellectual man and it can be tasted by the lowest... Guest: No intellect at all. I know that. *Prabhupāda: But why? Because this intellect, highest or lowest, that is in relationship with the body. But it is beyond the body. It is not... sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. It is beyond the three guṇas. The body is of the material guṇas-sattva, rajas, tamas. One man is good man, one man is passionate, one is foolish. Guṇa. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo'sya. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān [Bg. 13.22]? Find out this. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi. Everything is explained. Bhagavad-gītā. *Guest: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is matchless. We are reading and re-reading, and every time we find much more, you see? Terrific. And you have put the simplest method-"as it is" as you say. Why complicate, tinker this... That is why... You know we can be safely called intellectuals. But you know we are tired of it. Tired. We cannot find anything. Neti neti vicāra te patra patra... Impossible. Then what do you get out of the life? The joy, rasa (Bengali) And that is the main substance. To get it you cannot get neti neti (Bengali)... *Prabhupāda: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi [Bg. 13.22]. Puruṣaḥ. Why you cannot find this verse? What you are... Mahāṁśa: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti, bhuñjante... *Prabhupāda: Tad guṇān. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi. You did not find? Guest: (Bengali) *Bhāgavatam* series twenty volume. *Prabhupāda: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Seventeen volumes. Seventeen. Guest: I have only two. Can I, is there any set available? I would like to buy the rest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: *Prabhupāda: Puruṣa, the living entity, he is now within the material energy. Prakṛti*-sthaḥ. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti... *Mahāṁśa: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi. Prabhupāda: Stho hi. *Mahāṁśa: Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān. Prabhupāda: On account of his being in touch with the material energy, he has to suffer or enjoy the modes of material nature. Modes of material nature. And because, just like in your medical science one is suffering from a certain type of disease on account of his being infected by the similar verus or..., what is called? Mahāṁśa: Virus. Prabhupāda: Virus. Guest: Virus. (Bengali) Now we know even the inanimate is animate, but by biology only it is changing. All the unanimate subject is slowly being transformed into animate. We are all convinced the whole process is the same. It's a terrific science now, biology. Latest, we have discovered. I am also working on biology quite a bit for all the virus disease and all. And we can eliminate them by only vacuum. My whole cure, they call it miracle and all is nonsense, it is only creating a vacuum which automatically takes away. Prabhupāda: This biology will be complete... Guest: When we accept this. Prabhupāda: ...when you accept this. Guest: I know. (laughs) And I have accepted long ago. Because I felt, as a sincere worker, medicine doesn't interest me. What interests me is the cure. My profession is to cure, not to study the medicines. That is the cure. *Prabhupāda: Here it is very clearly stated that kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. The biology, infection. Kāraṇam, that is the kāraṇam. Kāraṇam guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Why there are varieties of life? One is very intelligent... Guest: You know also in (Sanskrit). Prabhupāda: Same thing. Guest: Same thing, no? Everything has light. Only it is in transformation by that formula it is inanimate to animate. That is what is happening all around us. *Prabhupāda: So, if from... Just like medical science... It is also a medical science. Bhavauṣadhi. It is... auṣadhi means medical science. This is bhavauṣadhi. By this treatment one becomes relieved from the material disease. Bhavauṣadhi. Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra*-mano-'bhirāmāt. But the medicine is so nice that it is pleasing to the ears and to the heart. The medicine pleasing to the ear? What is that. *Mahāṁśa: Hari*-nāma. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest: (Bengali) We decide a date, and take... Not too... We have no means for having too many people, but about dozen people, or ten people can come. And they will have all facility. We can arrange a station wagon and everything there. You have to come up to Kore Canal(?) Road Station. And if you like we shall arrange for your departure from Madras. We will come with you. We will accompany you all the way. (Bengali conversation interspersed) When you come there I'll get everything ready. It is settled you are coming at there earliest. Prabhupāda: Yes. When they'll make program, conveniently. Guest: I'm leaving on 29th morning. If you can give me a word by tomorrow evening. Not 29th, 19th. Today is 17th. Prabhupāda: They cannot decide so soon. Janmāṣṭamī kare, another program is that we are going that side during (indistinct). So we have to see. You also send this. Mahāṁśa: Yes, I have to take little time. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Please come in. Indians: Jaya, Prabhupāda ki jaya. Gurukṛpā: He's a life member from Bangalore. He was one of our first members in South India. Prabhupāda: I saw you? Give them prasāda. Indian man: Last night at the airport. Devotee: They had prasāda. Prabhupāda: (Hindi or Bengali) Guest: Correct. Cent percent correct. Prabhupāda: What is the use of decorating the dead body? Guest: Correct. Yes. We must decorate real... *Prabhupāda: And this body is... Either dead or alive, Bhagavad*-gītā condemns, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ [Bg. 2.11]. So these rascals are interested with this body, and they're proud of their advancement of education. Bhagavad-gītā says nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. So they are passing as great scientists, philosophers, politicians, philanthropists, but all apaṇḍitāḥ. Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. That means apaṇḍita. (Bengali) The first thing of Bhagavad-gītā lesson is that aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān [Bg. 2.11]. "Talking like a learned man, but you are rascal." Apaṇḍitaḥ. One who is not educated, he's a rascal. So He's indirectly saying, "This kind of lamentation is not for the paṇḍita. It is for the rascal." So whole world is interested with this body, and Bhagavad-gītā's teaching begins condemning the concept of body. Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Nobody knows this. And they are very learned scholars in Bhagavad-gītā. All these rascals, they're claiming to be learned scholar of Bhagavad-gītā. Guest: We are lucky souls that we are surrendered souls. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Whatever is done it is by single man's effort. If all our actual leaders, they take up, then India will be glorified. They'll feel... Yes, they're expecting. Outside India, people, they expect that there is something better knowledge in India. Therefore as soon as some swamis or yogi goes there, they come. But they cheat. These rascals, I shall say that, they do not know anything, and they go there for teaching yoga. Bogus. Guest: Bogus, bogus. So many bogus people are going. Prabhupāda: They do not know what is yoga. Guest: They do not know what is what. What that is truth. They don't know. Prabhupāda: And they get cheap money and women and that's all. That is their business. (Bengali) *Gurukṛpā: He has a temple. The whole third floor of his house is a temple. He has Sītā*-Rāma, Kṛṣṇa, Gopāla. He has big temple. They have saṅkīrtana every night. Every morning and night. Guest: (Bengali conversation) Gurukṛpā: That Raṅganātha temple is that temple where they do not allow us in. So Sampat Kumar and all of these paṇḍitas, they will sign one letter trying to request them. Also with the Purī people. To request them to let us in. While they are all here they will do that. Also Sampat Kumar was thinking that in November and December in South India the weather is nice because the rainy season is finished, and it would be a very good time to go and visit many of the temples. He personally knows many people in all the big temples. Shri Rangam, Kañcipuram, Maha Balipuram, Tirupati. They could arrange for receptions and programs. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) South India, Indian culture is still there. Other parts of India, they are not now Indian. Guest: Correct. (Bengali) Prabhupāda: We have got buses. They have got buses, two, three. Any number of. It is very simple method. That we combine together, Indian and foreigners. Go in buses. (Bengali) Now it should be organized. This is simply (Bengali). Guest: You must also come in Bangalore once. Then it will be all... Prabhupāda: Immediately think over that. These Europeans, Americans are there. Now get up the association of another, at least one dozen, and let us go together, grāma to grāma,... Yaśodānandana: We could go from Madras... Prabhupāda: Anywhere. Guest: Anywhere. Any village. All the villages... *Prabhupāda: You start from anywhere and go anywhere and sit down and chant. In India, Bhārata*-bhūmi (Hindi). Thousands will come. That is India. You won't have to advertise that there is hari-kīrtana, come. No. As soon as you begin, immediately thousands. As soon as there will be sugar grain, immediately the ants will come. It is like that. This is a fact. Guest: Correct, correct. Hundred per cent correct. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Just get one dozen good, I mean, good or bad. It doesn't matter, who is ready to work for this purpose. And our men are ready. Our buses are ready. So let us go. There is no question of selecting place. Anywhere. Anywhere. Guest: Any place, anywhere, all the places. Prabhupāda: You go and find out some good place for camping and begin kīrtana. Get down from the bus and begin kīrtana. Then all friends will come immediately. They will offer shelter, they will offer food. Everything. One thing is, their difficulty is language. Indians are there, they can speak on the local language. Guest: They can explain everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore wanted.(?) Yaśomatīnandana: Vaikuṇṭha Ekādaśī. In Shri Rangam they have this giant festival every year, the biggest festival in India. It's Vaikuṇṭha Ekādaśī in December. Guest: Last December we went there. *Yaśomatīnandana: November*-December is a very good time. Pañca-puram. Bharadvāja. Guest: (Bengali) This is the original birth, Shri Rangam. Prabhupāda: Now with Suraji's(?) cooperation make a program. *Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, we will do like that. November*-December will be very suitable time. Then in January the Kumbhamela, we will try to organize something big there also. January, Allahabad, Kumbhamela. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) That's all. Stop now. Harikeśa: I was just going to say you should take massage now. I was just going to say it's time for massage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Can I tell you about the bank? Punjab National Bank is down the street, and we have our temple account there. Prabhupāda: Oh, Punjab National Bank is there. Harikeśa: So how much do you want to deposit? Prabhupāda: That I have to count. Harikeśa: So we can do it any time. And before you arrange this Kumbhamela, it's very cold there. Prabhupāda: Don't talk now. Harikeśa: Okay. (long pause) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Everything is going on. Wood carving, cement lay, painting, marble polishing. The yajña. Prabhupāda: If we would have remained there. These people are coming. How they could see? Hari-śauri: Still, it would have been very quiet. Prabhupāda: We are not (indistinct). Besides that, we don't want quietness. We want how many (indistinct). Hari-śauri: Jaya. If you wanted quietness you could have stayed in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 19, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: Everything is all right? Devotee (1): Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda Prabhupāda: Let him dance (?). Wherefrom you are coming? Acyutānanda: From Calcutta, Māyāpura, Calcutta. Prabhupāda: My health is not well. Acyutānanda: Yes, I have heard. We brought you some medicine from your sister. Prabhupāda: Oh, oh! Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes I wrote her. Acyutānanda: Yes. We have that with us. Prabhupāda: So. Everything all right? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Everything all right to have your darśana, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We have heard that you are not feeling well. Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: Everyone in Calcutta, they were asking how you are. Many people they are anxious to see. We have gotten very good recent publicity there. Three days in a row. Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: Three days in a row of front page news articles. Prabhupāda: What is they have published? Acyutānanda: Very good. Many ministers are also coming to Māyāpur. Very... Prabhupāda: Here also the chief minister, many have come to see me. Devotee: Yesterday. Acyutānanda: Yes, he is OK. (indistinct background conversation) Prabhupāda: Gradually they will appreciate. Everyone, all over the world. Acyutānanda: This was on the front page of the Ananda Bazar, five lakhs circulation. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Front page. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is in the... Prabhupāda: Eh? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is in after all the accusations made by the... Acyutānanda: By the C.P.I. This is an answer. They came and did a full report with tape recorders, movie cameras. This newspaper. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can send this copy to Delhi for those ministers who wanted it. Acyutānanda: Those. Oh yes. This is the largest circulation in India. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This probably came the big (indistinct) yesterday. (indistinct) has been closed (indistinct) xerox copies (indistinct). We'll have it translated. Acyutānanda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So that they can read it. *Acyutānanda: Right. (kīrtana in background*-devotees talk in background) Also, this came the day before in the same newspaper. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You directly do that. You (indistinct) the idea. (indistinct) Acyutānanda: And Bhavananda invited the C.P.I. [Communist Party of India] members to come to Māyāpura and see for themselves. Prabhupāda: Ah! Acyutānanda: This article invites them. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These members are now in Delhi so we can send it to them. Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These members are all in Delhi. And when I write the letter which you dictated, they will also enclose it. Prabhupāda: Yes. They published one English article, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement Catches On." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: OK. Prabhupāda: In Ananda Bazar. Hari-śauri: It's that magazine called Sunday. Prabhupāda: Ha, ha. Hari-śauri: We saw it in New York. Prabhupāda: Somewhere I saw. Hari-śauri: New York. Prabhupāda: Very nice article. Hari-śauri: Yes, about thirteen pages in the magazine. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, really. Hari-śauri: Yes, very long, three quarters of the magazine. Prabhupāda: What is this? Acyutānanda: That's an income tax form. I pasted these on the back. Prabhupāda: That C.P.I. member, what does he say? Acyutānanda: Well apparently they're a little bit envious because Māyāpura is becoming very popular amongst the local people. We get five thousand people now for the prasādam. And even the Congress leaders, they come here and eat with the people. They said, "This is wonderful." Prabhupāda: Where is that? Acyutānanda: At Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Acyutānanda: And Jayapatāka is going to the villages, I gave him one bus and he is selling about six to seven hundred Gītār Gāns a day. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You'll run out of those pretty... Jayapatāka: We'll be finished in two months with those thirty thousand. Acyutānanda: And the response is wonderful within the villages. They all say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," everywhere. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: How people are receiving this movement all over the world, even (indistinct) to the communist (indistinct). They are trying to kill God, and we are putting God (indistinct) educated families. Acyutānanda: Yes. Jayapatāka: Show that other article that... This is the actual article against us. *Acyutānanda: Also this came in the Statesman, the pro*-vice-chancellor of Calcutta University came to Māyāpura, he wants to affiliate Māyāpura with the Calcutta University. This came in the Statesman. And a few days ago the vice-chancellor... Prabhupāda: It is not yet finished? Jayapatāka: That's the old picture. Acyutānanda: No, this picture's six months old. Jayapatāka: It's more than half. Acyutānanda: It's more than that. Jayapatāka: (indistinct) We've received ten lakhs so far. The building total was twenty lakhs. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Jayapatāka: (indistinct) ...building, six times longer than our building. Two hundred rooms. [break] Acyutānanda: This is the first article. That was against us. In the same paper. Then these two came. But it was very good. Many people came to the temple. They said, "Your society is cleared." Many Bengalis, so many came, "We have read, 'Your society is cleared.' " Prabhupāda: Now (indistinct) cleared. (indistinct) (end) *Room Conversation About Mäyäpura Construction-*-August 19, 1976, Hyderabad Gargamuni: ...to keep it going we took a minimum amount of ten thousand a month. We were getting ten thousand a month. But to finish the building we require more, more per month, because ten thousand is just the most minimum amount just to keep it going. Prabhupāda: So you are collecting? Gargamuni: Yes, but that is going for maintenance. I give twenty thousand a month now. Prabhupāda: Maintenance, twenty thousand? Gargamuni: Well, that includes agriculture, the gurukula, everything. It includes everything. Jayapatākā: Actual maintenance, about eight or ten thousand. Other things, landscaping and other things... Gargamuni: Landscaping... We built you a very wonderful park, very nice park. We've also put a walkway around the ghāṭa with stairs. Prabhupāda: Now, what is the position of our big project? Jayapatākā: That's what I was going to tell you first. So what happened was that the application we had given to the Chief Secretary and the Board of Revenue, that has gone from them to Mr. Choudhuri, who in turn had sent it on to the Commissioner. The Commissioner sent to District Magistrate. The Commissioner sent to the District Magistrate. So District Magistrate, he gave a favorable reply. Prabhupāda: He has given? Jayapatākā: Favorable reply. He said, "This is a good project. It will help the district." He only said that they should maybe get three hundred acres instead of 350 or like that. He reduced something. Then that went back again to the Commissioner, who was a Christian. He's the one I mentioned. He wrote bad report. Then when Choudhuri got it, he wrote a very good report. He wrote a very good report. He said that there's no question of Hindu or Muslim. Just like in Bangkok they have that one big Viṣṇu Temple. Or the Taj Mahal. This is no longer any type of religious. This is for all mankind. Similarly this Māyāpura will be a monument for the whole mankind. Prabhupāda: For the whole world. Jayapatākā: For the whole world. So in this way he gave a very good, very good statement. Then that went to the Chief Secretary again, who had to give it to the Chief Minister. So the Chief Minister he does not have a good opinion. He did not have a good opinion of our society. Prabhupāda: Who is the Chief Minister? Jayapatākā: Siddhanta Shankaraya. Prabhupāda: He is very expert man. Jayapatākā: He's a very expert... He's one of their chief politicians from India. He used to be Education Minister of Indira Gandhi. He's one of her right hand men. Gargamuni: Very important for Bengal. Bengal is the most important state, and he has very prominent position to the Prime Minister as advisor. Jayapatākā: So at that time, I couldn't write him a letter. He had written that..., something which made Mr. Choudhuri very angry. He wrote something which made Mr. Choudhuri very angry. Made also the Chief Secretary angry. He wrote... Gargamuni: No, who wrote? Jayapatākā: The Chief Minister wrote. He said, "Because of the impassioned... He said "I would have refused this application except for the impassioned appeal of one of my senior officers, namely Mr. Choudhuri. They are asking for three hundred acres of land but the East India Company, they asked only twenty acres of land and they have conquered the whole of India." (loud kīrtana in background) Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: "East India Company, they have asked only twenty acres of land but they have conquered the whole of India. Gargamuni: "They ruled India for two hundred years." Jayapatākā: Oh. "Ruled India for two hundred years." Prabhupāda: Who said? Chief Minister? Gargamuni: The Chief Minister wrote that the East India Company purchased twenty acres of land and rules India for two hundred years. That was his reply to our application. Prabhupāda: Chief Minister said? Gargamuni: Yes. They're afraid that by taking this, we will rule India. Jayapatākā: Anyway, that's a very frivolous statement. That was a frivolous statement. Prabhupāda: No, that, ruling over India, they politically ruled. Jayapatākā: But we're not politicians. Prabhupāda: Even if we are rule, we shall rule spiritually. We have nothing to do with politics. Jayapatākā: That's the point. That's why even the Chief Secretary, he became... Gargamuni: They didn't take it seriously. The Chief Secretary and Mr. Choudhuri did not take that very seriously, that comment. It's a frivolous comment. Jayapatākā: It's progressed. That's one month ago. Since then it's progressed. Then he said, Let there be more inquiry on the nature of the society and its source of funds, etc..." In the meantime many people had come and inquired about our society. CID, CI. Gargamuni: Also the industrial, one industrial from the... They want to know how we will arrange for so many work for so many people. I met them there. They want to know, "How will you get everyone to work?" They sent... Many, from many different governmental departments, came, inquiring, "How you will do this?" And they all went away satisfied. We showed them the handloom; we showed them the gośālā; we showed them the children. Even Tarun Kanti Ghosh, he came, and we lined up fifty children, and they read the Gītār Gān, and he almost started crying. He liked it so much. He said, "Oh, you have done so nicely with the children." So they were impressed with the work. Jayapatākā: So that time Mr. Choudhuri, he was put down. But he said, "I have not yet lost hope." He said, but he was put down a bit. That might personally talked to the Minister of Nadia, Anandamoy Visvas, who I personally met last year. And he was telling him that for Nadia he should sponsor this. Even the negative political issue with the Chief Minister, he should push it through. In the meantime I wrote an application to Karun Kanti Ghosh, who up to now we hadn't asked. Because it had already passed all the preliminaries. And I went and spoke to him. I told him that "It has already passed all the government stages. Now simply the Chief Minister has to be convinced." He said, "No, no. You are of good integrity. There is not doubt about ISKCON. I will immediately tell him." He called up the Chief Secretary, the Chief Minister was out then. Later on he talked to Chief Minister. The next time I saw Mr. Choudhuri. Before that, he told me... That's when he told me that "Maybe Prabhupāda should see the Chief Minister." Now he said it's not necessary. He liked your reply to them. After that, I saw Mr. Tarun Kanti Ghosh. Then I saw Choudhuri again a week later. At that time he said, "Now everything is changed." He said "Now the Chief Minister, that problem is solved." He has written that "Let Mr. Choudhuri make the decision. Let him make the decision. But I cannot simply take the decision. They'll say I am biased. I must work in the ordinary ways of the government. But there is no trouble now. You have waited so long. You wait another thirty or sixty days." He said, "Wait another sixty days, and then you'll get it." Prabhupāda: When he wrote? When he wrote this? Gargamuni: He spoke to me just two weeks ago. Two weeks ago. Then, last week, again I saw him just before Janmāṣṭamī. I asked him... And I gave him invitation to Janmāṣṭamī. At that time he told me that... There was this bad publicity. He told me, "Now this bad publicity, I think it has given us some benefit." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, could you give darśana over here later? They're all been waiting for your darśana. Gargamuni: Hey, wait a minute. We're talking about Māyāpura. We're talking about Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: Is there...? Is there there necessity? Gargamuni: There's no necessary. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. But we had you down on schedule for a lecture. So I said that you're not lecturing, but they just wanted to have a look at you. Later we can... Prabhupāda: Tomorrow I shall. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Tomorrow. Okay. Prabhupāda: Tomorrow I shall lecture. Gargamuni: Go ahead. *Jayapatākā: Now, just a few days ago, when I invited him for Janmāṣṭamī, then I asked him what the... He told me at that time... He said, "Now..." He had recently received a phone call from the Chief Secretary." You see? Now your favorite project is going to be spoiled." Then he went over to see the Chief Secretary. He showed him an article from the Rāja*-Sabhā, how the member of Parliament had given this challenge that "Are these people CIA or this or that?" Then Mr. Choudhuri said, "Sir, I am not afraid." He said, "Why not?" "Because I have you, don't I?" Then the Chief said, "Yes. You have won me over. I believe in this project." Then he said that now the Chief Minister has agreed that the project be sanctioned. But he said that "I don't want to take the full brunt of the decision. Let the Nadia District Planning Committee take the decision." Prabhupāda: Nadia? Jayapatākā: District Planning Committee. So the head of the Nadia District Planning Committee is that minister, Anandamoy Visvas. So I went to him and I gave him an invitation for the Janmāṣṭamī. When I saw him, then... You gave me that letter. So I showed him that letter where you have said that "every day we're selling sixty thousand dollars of books, and I think you for helping me." I said, "Sir, we are simply doing Prabhupāda's order. This is not our work. It is not a foreign work. It is his work; we are simply doing it. He is selling so many books that he wants to invest some of the money to develop Mahāprabhu's birthsite. That is all. He has got the money. Why he should not invest it?" He said, "I am going to have a meeting of the committee next week, and I'm going to push your project through. We're going to pass it." That is the last word I heard. So it looks that everything is very good right now... But we have to keep our society very pure because their investigating us very strong. All the time they're having people watching us. Gargamuni: There is now in Māyāpura... The talk is, there's... Some special advisors to the Prime Minister are in Māyāpura now investigating to make sure. *Jayapatākā: Some of the local people that were working with me, getting petitions, they came and told me that some people from Delhi or outside were inquiring about us, about Bhavānanda Goswami, about Jayapatākā, about this project, about how the devotees are dealing with the public, whether we are doing any anti*-Indian work. All sorts of questions they are asking. So it's very important that we keep very up and up right now. All the time. But otherwise the government, they are happy with our work. And so far, Mr. Choudhuri said, other people have indicated that they have found no bad report about our society, although they are looking so hard. Therefore they are passing. Gargamuni: The State government is very favorable. But the doubt, of course, is coming from the central government because they don't know us. But the state government, they are very favorable. Everyone we've met within the State, they like us very much. They like the Society, they like your work, and, of course, they like your books. Jayapatākā: The local police intelligence officer in Krishnagar, when I went to see him, he told me, (Bengali). Like that, he told me. "Definitely I make you an Indian citizen." So they are favorable. I don't know how much they can do, but locally they are favorable. Gargamuni: Now on the weekend we have tours of the building. Many groups of people come. Fifty in a group sometimes come and visit. Prabhupāda: Tourists. Gargamuni: Yes, tourists, and we take then on tour of the building. That's Subhaga. He takes them on tour and he gives some preaching. So many people are coming. Prabhupāda: Subhaga is in charge of that? Gargamuni: Yes, he does. Jayapatākā: Others are there also. One new boy is very good. Gargamuni: Kiśora. Jayapatākā: Kiśora dāsa. He's also translating. He's a little more strong than Subhaga, although new. Very good boy, very humble. He's from a good family also. Prabhupāda: What is the flood situation? Gargamuni: Very mild monsoon this year. Almost drought. Almost. Very mild. Very little rain. Prabhupāda: Rain is not very strong. Gargamuni: No. Monsoon is not strong. Jayapatākā: Our aus(?) crop has been hampered because of lack of rain and early monsoon. Only in the past week there's been a little rain. Otherwise, before, there was very little rain. Not fully drought... Gargamuni: But less rain than previous years. Jayapatākā: Everything is very green and nice, but so far as agriculture is concerned... Prabhupāda: It requires more rain. Jayapatākā: It requires more rain and early tide. Right now the river is full, but it is not flooding. It is full. See, Mr. Choudhuri, he was interested. At that time when the Chief Minister wrote that, then he wrote this, that "If you were to see the Chief Minister, then this type of letter could be submitted and he would definitely see you, "although it is not necessary to see him. Prabhupāda: Do you think it is? Jayapatākā: No, it's not necessary to personally see him. You might write... When you come to Māyāpura we'll write him invitation that he can come and see and visit you there. That was better. Mr. Choudhuri said that "Your Guru Mahārāja, he has got also the Vaiṣṇava pride not to see the politicians." He said, "This is a good stand. I respect this very much." Actually he mentioned once to Abhirāma confidentially that "If this project comes through, then you'll be requiring some liaison officer because there will be so many government things. At that time I can work for you as your permanent advisor and go to Delhi and here and there and do all the work." I think he wants a job. Prabhupāda: I thought Mr. Choudhuri would do everything, but that is not the position. Jayapatākā: Almost he is doing everything. Actually he's trying to say that he did everything. But I think that when we saw Tarun Kanti Ghosh that that cleared up that matter with Chief Minister that cleared that up. As far as the other lower secretary men are..., Mr. Choudhuri did everything. The Chief Minister doubt, I think Tarun helped clear that up. That's the only thing that he couldn't change the mind of is the Chief Minister. Otherwise he did everything else, almost, you can say. Gargamuni: He came on the last ekādaśī. Just last ekādaśī, what, ten days ago? Seven days he came for the ekādaśī to Māyāpura just to see. Prabhupāda: Who? Gargamuni: Tarun Kanti Ghosh. He took prasādam, he took the ekādaśī and he liked it very much. *Jayapatākā: I just saw him also just before Janmāṣṭamī, and he was still very favorable then. We talked for about an hour and a half. He introduced me to all the M.L.A's of the twenty*-four paraganās. Prabhupāda: Tarun Kanti? Jayapatākā: When I go preaching, then I go, and the government M.L.A. and Congress people, they also help me. They arrange sometimes places for me to stay and big program. They protect that no people cause us any disturbances. Although we don't... Prabhupāda: What about our Godbrothers? They are also opposing? Jayapatākā: Subhaga made a very... Bhavānanda sent him over to invite Śrīdhara Swami for Janmāṣṭamī, as a show of respect. When he went there... he's not so clever boy. So Śrīdhara Swami asked him, "Oh, what about your land acquisition?" What does he know about land acquisition? We never discussed anything with him. He can only know by hearsay. So then Subhaga said, "Oh, it's in the hands of the Chief Minister," for which I reprimanded at all. Why you have given any information?" But they are very interested in these things, and maybe they are still trying to stop it, but I don't think they have the power. Prabhupāda: They have no power. Jayapatākā: They are the ones who have raised up that first petition, that Surendra dāsa, I think, and others. They are behind that. They themselves were in the market trying to get petition against, but no one would sign for them. We made a little of political..., because in Māyāpura now we have got seventy per cent of the people are... Prabhupāda: In our favor. Jayapatākā: In our favor strongly. And only a minority are actively opposed, one percent even. And thirty per cent are in doubt. So, so much so that even I saw recently the M.L.A. who was previously against us. And when I saw him I invited him for Janmāṣṭamī, and he said what about our program for a bridge? I said, "Oh, yes, I discussed with Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he suggested having a floating bridge to Navadvīpa. That will be very short. Very easily done with least expense." He said, "Anyway, next time you come to Navadvīpa you can discuss with me. I am ready to help you in all ways." So he has turned his mind around. Prabhupāda: Who? Jayapatākā: The MLA. The local Member of Legislative Assembly. He was previously a little against us. But because our whole aṁśa (?) is for us, if he doesn't cooperate he won't get their vote, they want the development in their area. Also the...He is changing a little. Everyone is saying that our society is actually simply doing sincere work. Prabhupāda: As they doing (?). Jayapatākā: This food distribution has been very important. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Jayapatākā: Now the price of rice has gone up by about eighty paisa. From two rupees to two*-eighty. So the poor class of people, they are in a very bad situation. So now our attendance has gone up from twelve hundred to two thousand on that Saturday and Sunday, each day. So we have two shifts. So many people are coming that they come from ten o'clock in the morning and wait because otherwise they can't get a boat in time to cross the river. So then we were very surprised to read in a recent newsletter from LA that "They're going to restart the food relief." But we never knew it stopped. We never knew that they had stopped the food relief. We saw then that he said, "They're going to restart." But we never stopped, and we were very surprised to see that. And now they say... Prabhupāda: Who said? Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara. Gargamuni: To maintain this food relief from the centers only requires what? Fifteen hundred dollars a month. So little amount and so much service is done. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: So I know Tamāla, he was giving one thousand but he has stopped now. He was giving one thousand a month. And now he has stopped. Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara, you wrote him a letter that "Jayapatākā Swami should be sent money for ISKCON Food Relief." And he told me that "I am sending you. I have four thousand dollars, "which he sent. We had already been 36,000 rupees in debt because we had not received money for six months. But he wrote in a newsletter to the temples that "Prabhupāda has wrote me to send money to Jayapatākā Swami; and now we're going to start again ISKCON Food Relief." But that was making it appear that we had stopped. But actually we had never stopped. Prabhupāda: Rāmeśvara? He did not know? Jayapatākā: Rāmeśvara had stopped collecting from the temples. But we had never stopped... Prabhupāda: Anyway, he'll collect. That's all. Jayapatākā: Your program everyone is appreciating. When the newspapermen came out, at that time the black development officer he came there, and when the newspapermen were there he sat down with all the poor people and he took also and said, "This is very good. This is our national service." And they photographed. Prabhupāda: "National Service"? Jayapatākā: Yes, he mentioned. Gargamuni: Still, though, because of these articles, it has been a little bit hard to secure money from people now because the people who are giving us money, they are under investigation also, the rich people. So when they see we are under investigation, oh, then they get afraid. They don't want to give. Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: Because we're under investigation and they're also being investigated, so they don't want to endanger... The government is every day raiding the houses of the rich people. Prabhupāda: Anyway, what is the investigation? Jayapatākā: They are being investigated for income tax. Gargamuni: For income tax. The government is making it so that no one can give any donation. They don't want any more donation. They want everything to come to the government. So it's not easy to get money locally. We are getting enough to do maintenance, but it is not like it was, say, two or three years ago, when you could get 25,000 fifteen thousand, especially in Calcutta, where the income tax, every day they are raiding the houses. Jayapatākā: Even if people give, a life, patron member, 2,222, if they are not so big, they want to give in installment and even though they'll give at one time with postdated... They want different receipt because if they give one lump sum, then it makes it seem that they are very rich. Although they'll give you at one time, they want small, small receipt so that the income tax won't think, "Oh, they are are giving so much donation? They must be very rich. They must have hidden wealth which we can capture from them by investigation." So in this way they are very much pressurized. Sometimes they prefer to give money without receipt. Prabhupāda: Soon the whole, our program is going on. Gargamuni: Oh, yes. No, it's going on more. The book distribution is going on more. More people are joining. There's no hindrance. Prabhupāda: That I want. Jayapatākā: These are simply minor obstacles. Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Pālikā was just wondering if you wanted anything tonight. Prabhupāda: Yes. If she can... She can make little vegetable, potato, tomato. Hari-śauri: Puris? Prabhupāda: Yes. Or one paraṭā. One paraṭā. Hari-śauri: Just potatoes and tomato? Prabhupāda: Yes, tomato, potato, one vegetable. Gargamuni: Prabhupāda's house. Your house. You have not decided where you want to put your house. Prabhupāda: I wanted that if the major project is done, then we can select. What do you think? Jayapatākā: Let the big land be acquired and pick the best place. Let the whole land be acquired and then pick the best place. You wanted to wait for the whole land to be acquired, and then pick the best place. Prabhupāda: Yes. And not I want, but that you all see, that is the best place. Jayapatākā: For the most privacy. Prabhupāda: For the time being, that place is very nice, that pond. What is there? Gargamuni: It's become congested there now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: We have 138 people now. 138 people are living there. Women, children... Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: There's fifty children now. So that place is now... The front has become somewhat congested... Prabhupāda: Congested. Gargamuni: ...with noise and children. Prabhupāda: What about the painting? Gargamuni: Painting is going on. Jayapatākā: They've done about sixteen or seventeen. Prabhupāda: Our men? Gargamuni: Yes, yes. Jayapatākā: Two men. Ānakadundubhi and what's his name? Gargamuni: Pāṇḍu. *Jayapatākā: I went to Haridaspur as soon as I received your letter because Bahusvarūpa was there, making arrangement for the Janmāṣṭamī festival. So I spoke to all those people for two days, Thursday and Friday. And the land is in the name of the zamindar, Mr..., Ghosh family. There's fourteen members who have to sign. So in Haridaspur nine members are living, and they are all agreed for signing. And they say the other five members live in Calcutta. Once they sign the deed, they'll also sign. There's no doubt because that's not even in their possession. That's in the public's possession. And all the public, Anchal*-pradhan and all the other leaders of that village they are also all eager to have us start . I think that we can also raise some money in the neighborhood. There's some relatively rich people. So that... I was trying to register that before I came here but because Monday is... That zamindar has one haṭṭa. And that's... His haṭṭa day is Monday, so he was busy. And Tuesday was Janmāṣṭamī by government of West Bengal, and Wednesday was our Janmāṣṭamī and Haridaspur Janmāṣṭamī, and I came here today, Thursday, so we couldn't do it beforehand. But as soon as I go back, I can register that. And... But someone should immediately come, Mūrti or Saurabha or someone and see that land. Prabhupāda: No, no, we have to... Yes. We have to see, make plans. Jayapatākā: Because actually just by giving the site plan you can't make a plan because that's a high area and it goes down to the river. So from our land to the river, that is also under our use. That is klashjami.(?) That is no man's land, but that we can also use and that has to be some strengthening so that when the river..., and rain cannot wear down the side. So these details they should come and see, and then they could make a proper plan, I think. Without seeing, they can't make. 'Cause it's a very small area, it should be very well planned. And the local people there, they are very innocent people. They don't seem to have any type of enmity or envy at all. They all come and chant and see. Although they don't strictly follow the rules, naturally. They eat fish and other things and smoke, but they seem to be simple people. If someone would work with him, I think he could make the whole village gradually Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: But who that person is right now to work, that we have to train up some of our men. Because right now... Prabhupāda: He can do, Svarūpa. He can take training, and he can do. And then, gradually, others will join. Jayapatākā: I think all the children, they could become brahmacārīs. If the parents would be agreeable, they could become brahmacārīs and attend morning some class, then go to school. In this way the whole village could be made Kṛṣṇa conscious at least by chanting and... Prabhupāda: Chanting is the main thing. Chanting and distributing prasādam. Jayapatākā: If we get prasādam, then... I think that they all contribute some grain. They are very poor agricultural people, but there's no theft there. I asked. There's one man who has three acres. Three bighās of land he's giving. So they just grow their rice there and... Prabhupāda: You can ask that instead of making paraṭā, a light khicuḍi in the morning. That is... Hari-śauri: Instead of that sabji and everything. Prabhupāda: No, sabji can make. Jayapatākā: Khicuḍi instead of paraṭā? Prabhupāda: So khicuḍi will be easy, like... Hari-śauri: You want some khicuḍi and the potato? Prabhupāda: Put in the khicuḍi and tomato. Like in the morning. Hari-śauri: Yes. Do you want anything like puri or anything to eat with it? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: Just khicuḍi and the vegetable. Prabhupāda: That will be easily digested. Jayapatākā: Digestion is not good now. Gargamuni: This will help digestion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: This medicine. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: There is ginger, I think. Prabhupāda: This is ajwain(?). My only concern is about the immigration department. They are gagging you: "Now your visa... Go out, go away, go out..." So they are making so big, big arrangement. If my foreign disciples are forced to go away, then what is the value? That is... Gargamuni: Well, as far as myself... Of course, I was supposed to leave yesterday. But there is very easy process. You can come in and out and stay six months. Prabhupāda: So that, make plans. That will... Otherwise we are making so big, big, big plan. Who will manage? Jayapatākā: For that matter, we can get. Even the American citizen, they can get outside... By various means you can get Canadian and English passports. Jayapatākā: But even then, we can go to Lahore, get visa three months, come in, but you can stay six months. Then go out again, get another visa, come in and out. There is no problem. We have already done that with some of the other men. Prabhupāda: Make... Find out such means. Otherwise... Alexander the Great, having so many kingdom, and as soon as he goes away, it is finished. *Jayapatākā: Also, if you wrote a letter to Brahmananda Reddy and that Mr. Mehta, the deputy or whatever, minister, regarding these questions coming in the Rāja*-sabhā about Māyāpura and Vṛndāvana, "Actually these two centers are my ... I am founder-ācārya of these centers, and the people working there are not independent of me. I have asked them to come for assisting me." Then, if a letter like that is written to them and send me one copy, that will help immigration also, I think. Gargamuni: Also another investigation, we're always asked, "Where is your headquarters?" Jayapatākā: And then "Our headquarters is in India." Gargamuni: It must be always stated, "Our headquarters are India." If we say "foreign," that means we are controlled by foreign. We must publish everywhere that our head... Prabhupāda: No, we have mentioned headquarters Bombay? Jayapatākā: We just said offices. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: They think that Los Angeles is our headquarters. Prabhupāda: That is for America. Gargamuni: We explain like that. Prabhupāda: But real headquarter here. Gargamuni: I think if one letter is given that "We are purely Indian, that I am ācārya and they are simply helping me, they are not..." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the fact. Jayapatākā: Actual facts is... That would help, if such a letter was given. Then on the basis of that, we cal also go and preach or talk, or we can show that to the local people that "this is..." Because they keep thinking that we are coming on our own. Because you are outside traveling, they see us only, and they think we are independent. Prabhupāda: No, in every letter heading there is my name, "Ācārya, Founder-ācārya." Gargamuni: That is their stupidity. But if some, that one direct letter, short letter, then if we have a copy I'll show that to the CID there, that "This, Prabhupāda has written to the Minister of Home. This is in answer to your question." Prabhupāda: Then take that copy. Gargamuni: I'll make one draft. Prabhupāda: No, I have written already letter? Jayapatākā: You're written already letter? Prabhupāda: To the Home Minister? Gargamuni: I didn't get. Has he written a letter to the Home Minister? Prabhupāda: No, Home Minister has given one letter. Gargamuni: I have that letter. Jayapatākā: Also all over Bengal people are appreciating. I went... When we go preaching in the small towns... Prabhupāda: Wait, I am coming. Among the... Amongst these... "Not only for India, but the whole world. You are doing nice work." So push this movement. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura wanted Indians, they can... Prabhupāda also. No we have to plan how to... We are not concerned only with India. All over the world. Make plan. Think over. Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence. Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda would come to Māyāpura. Jayapatākā: And when is your program for coming to Māyāpura? All the devotees are offering their obeisances to you. Bhavānanda Goswami, he is following very strictly the cāturmāsya this year. He doesn't eat anything before sunrise. Gargamuni: The weather there is very nice because the monsoon is mild. It is very nice, cool weather. Prabhupāda: I have got a bad impression, Bengal during rainy season. Gargamuni: Yes, right. Prabhupāda: Is it not? No, it was not rainy season. This season. Otherwise any season in Bengal, they are very good. Hari-śauri: Insect season. Prabhupāda: Not only insect. There are... Insects are there? Gargamuni: There's no insects now. Jayapatākā: Rainy season no insects. After rainy season. Prabhupāda: After rainy season. And insect is not so bad. Indigestion. Jayapatākā: Indigestion. Prabhupāda: That is the... Gargamuni: What part of India is good during rainy season? Is there any part of India that's good during rainy season? Hari-śauri: Vṛndāvana's not too bad. Prabhupāda: I think Vṛndāvana. Is it not? Hari-śauri: I was there last year. Jayapatākā: I only know Bengal. Prabhupāda: You are now Bengali. Jayapatākā: (laughs) Prabhupāda: And they are not giving citizenship? *Jayapatākā: Myself? What happened was I applied last September. So now it's nearly one year, so they had sent my application from Māyāpura to Calcutta, Writer's Building. Again back. Again Writer's Building, then to Delhi. Then Delhi sent again back. I went, and I asked the secretary, and I found out that they had sent again back from Delhi, again back to Māyāpura and then re*-investigated me. At that time they brought in some local people, and one investigator, he said that "This Jayapatākā Swami, we have heard that he is a very bad person. He beats the people." They said, "No, We never heard such thing." "No, no. We have heard that he is very bad." In this way by negative they are testing. They came and told me that for two hours police is drilling three different people from Navadvīpa and Māyāpura. In this way no one said a bad... Prabhupāda: No, if you are a famous man, then they'll do. Gargamuni: Him and Bhavānanda. Jayapatākā: Now Bhavānanda is more famous. Prabhupāda: He is notorious. Jayapatākā: But now he is in the papers. Prabhupāda: (laughing) He... You are famous; he is notorious. It is very difficult to deal with these nonsense. They are devotees and either notorious or famous. Our Godbrothers, they do not like Bhavānanda. Eh? Jayapatākā: No, they don't like me anymore either. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? What is your fault? Jayapatākā: They always thought, because I am not so outspoken, that "Jayapatākā, we can get him to do as we like." But ultimately I don't do anything for them either, so now they don't like me either. Bhavānanda openly was against, and I was passive. I didn't say anything. But when they came to me I also... Actually I am afraid. Mādhava Mahārāja he invited me to attend his program, some festival day. Prabhupāda: Where? Jayapatākā: At his Maṭha. Prabhupāda: Ten days? Ten days. *Jayapatākā: No, it was a three*-day program. He invited us for one day. But I was afraid to go. He might even poison me. They personally went... Prabhupāda: That is their business, especially Mādhava Mahārāja. Jayapatākā: It not materially by poison, then spiritually by ear. One way or other, they have to give poison. So I didn't even want to go. I didn't go, either. Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara Mahārāja is also within the group? Jayapatākā: Of course, all those details we don't know. By the way, Tīrtha Mahārāja very sick. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gargamuni: Oxygen. Jayapatākā: He can't breath. He is on a bed with oxygen. Life and death any moment. Injection, oxygen, barely staying alive. One day better, one day worse. Now they say better; then again they say worse. [Break] That is what we simply need, are people... I saw the program so nicely if people would simply come and work sincerely, they'll make spiritual advancement. They'll chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very quickly they'll become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So now we're seeing that... We're demanding that sincere people come. Prabhupāda: Yes, it may not be the association of lazy people. Free hotel. No. Jayapatākā: Bhavānanda, he's strict on that. Gargamuni: He's very strict. Without working, no one can eat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only work. Attending the program. That is essential. Jayapatākā: They all attend maṅgala-ārati, evening ārati. They should also attend morning class. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Work is partial. These things are essential. Jayapatākā: Maṅgala-ārati and morning class. Gargamuni: But some of these men are workers. They're not... Prabhupāda: No, our cloth necessities are supplied by ourselves? The cloth? Jayapatākā: The difficulty is right now we have twenty thousand rupees worth of cloth in stock. That is all profit. We only are three thousand rupees in debt. But we have all the cloth. We have no customers. Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: There's no customers. We have a huge stock... Prabhupāda: You send immediately to America. They will pay. Gargamuni: we sent a newsletter to get people to buy cloth the cloth because we have a huge stock of it. Prabhupāda: Now, you ask Bhagavān. He is very clever. He's expert. Jayapatākā: We are worried that now we're getting good men to join, they're doing good work, then how... Prabhupāda: I think if you prepare according to the order of our foreign centers, then you won't be... They will all give. You can make fine cloth? Jayapatākā: We can make up to eighty count. Eighty count we can make now. Prabhupāda: They are purchasing cloth, shirt, and everything. Jayapatākā: They're saying... Sometimes they say that "The cloth you make is not what we like." But I tell them we can make any cloth. You give us sample. You tell us. We'll make to your specification." They don't... Prabhupāda: Even... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, Jayatīrtha, Bhagavān dāsa, they'll help. Jayapatākā: The GBC's can write a letter, and I'll sign it, you and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Gargamuni: All right, I'll write a letter. Let's not bother Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: How is that, twenty thousand stock is there? You can send it? In India there is no customer? Gargamuni: No, because it's made according to European length. Big size. Jayapatākā: Up to now we've been making according to the devotee's specification. To make for Indian to make a different type. We can also make Indian sari and other thing. They'll be cheaper one. but previously we were making because we thought that all the foreign branches... Prabhupāda: So whatever... Now you can make Indian style. You keep great stock? Jayapatākā: Well, we are hearing that they are buying the cloth elsewhere. Gargamuni: All right. Come on. Prabhupāda: Eh? They are buying elsewhere? Gargamuni: Yes. They are buying sometimes from other. (to JP) All right. Let's go and chant, come back tomorrow. Jayapatākā: Other thing we can discuss tomorrow. [break] Gargamuni: ...Birla Prabhupāda: It is difficult to go there. It is difficult to go there. Gargamuni: And here there is more devotion. Prabhupāda: Here are devotees. Jayapatākā: We made this for distributing, and the public, the take and worship in their home, purchase it. Gargamuni: (to Jayapatākā) Let's go. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian printing? Purchase? Gargamuni: Yes. This is Indian printing. Prabhupāda: Calcutta? Gargamuni: Yes. [Break] Prabhupāda: So, so far the building is concerned, that is already settled up. Jayapatākā: Yes, that's all set up. Prabhupāda: Then what other? *Jayapatākā: There were some other lighter matters. When I was traveling in my preaching, then last time in Māyāpura, when that Haridaspur, when they offered, you mentioned to me that you liked that we develop these holy spots. So just as a matter of convenience, whenever I was near any holy spot that you mentioned in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta I would go and just visit the place. So in my tours, one place I went to was very nice, and that sevaite, he spontaneously, when I showed him all your work, he offered me that he would like to give the temple to you. That temple is much, much more developed than Haridaspur. That's the temple of Maheśa Paṇḍita. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Jayapatākā: And that is the seventeenth branch of Lord Nityānanda. It's got the personal Deities of Nitāi*-Gaura that he used to worship. It's got a building worth about fifty thousand rupees on it. A nice, brand new nātha-mandira. This man is Shri Keshav Priya Brahmacari. He's a disciple of that Krishna Prem, that Mr. Nixtan or something. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayapatākā: He talked personally with Bhaktisiddhānta, I heard, in Sanskrit many years ago. He's a disciple. Prabhupāda: He's Indian or...? *Jayapatākā: Well, it's an unusual story that that man was a pilot in the World War, and he was flying over Himalayas or something, and he saw Kṛṣṇa in his mind's eye or something, and then, then he was shot down, he saw Kṛṣṇa, and then, when he landed, he searched out who he saw, and he came to Vṛndāvana or something and saw the Deity of Kṛṣṇa, and he became initiated at Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa temple. *Prabhupāda: Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa Jayapatākā: This is that guru story. Now he only made a few disciples, and he always was chanting. Also Panditji, he knew more. I don't know so much about his guru but I've heard a little bit that his foreigner became a guru or became a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Nixon? Jayapatākā: His previous name is Nixton, he initiated name was Krishna Prem. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was in Almora. Jayapatākā: Almora, yes. I don't know exactly where Almora is. Prabhupāda: Almora is a hilly station, Himalaya. If... Almora, one goes from Lucknow. *Jayapatākā: So this brahmacārī is a disciple of him. Therefore he doesn't have any connection. There's no sampradāya anymore because his guru's disappeared, and somehow he's got this sevā. These are the Deities there of Nitāi*-Gaura. There's about twelve śālagrāma-śilās also. And a little Rādhā-Gopīnātha. This is all mentioned in your purport. It's only about four or five hundred yards. I could read from it. Prabhupāda: Eh? No, that's all right. Jayapatākā: It's four or five hundred yards from the Palpara Railway Station. It's the next station from Chuktaha, under Chuktaha police station. Prabhupāda: Chuktaha? Chugda. Jayapatākā: Chugda: That's where you take your... That mango orchard where you take your lunch? That's just the nearest place go Chugda. So he was very pleased with all the work that you are doing. He's in Vṛndāvana now for Janmāṣṭamī. He hadn't been to Vṛndāvana for about five years, so he went to Vṛndāvana for darśana. He may be there even when you go. I'm not sure if he'll be there. Prabhupāda: You have advised to see our temple? *Jayapatākā: Yes, he'll definitely visit. I also gave him an introduction that if he goes, he should be received there. He's got... The present place where the Deities are situated is on four cuttas(?) of land. And apart from that, where Maheśa Paṇḍita's samādhi is, he's got three bighās of land. That's right next door to a four*-hundred-year-old temple. Prabhupāda: Chugda is to the... It is from Shrirampuri? No. Jayapatākā: No, it's on this side of the Ganges. It's on the eastern side of the Ganges. Prabhupāda: Oh, eastern. Jayapatākā: There there's another temple of Jagadīśa Paṇḍita. Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. Jayapatākā: That is run by Mādhava Mahārāja. That's in actual Chugda, and this is another mile or two miles from Chugda. That Jagadīśa Paṇḍita Mandira has got big Jagannātha Deity and one stick which Jagadīśa Paṇḍita carried the Jagannātha Deity from Jagannātha Purī with. I saw both temples. They told me there that "You should see this temple, very lovable Deities." I went in. Actually the Deities are very beautiful and very well kept. Just like in Mādhava Mahārāja's mandira, underneath the siṁhāsana they didn't wash. Only in front. But this man, everything was neat and clean. It looked like a thriving, more or less, a thriving place. Prabhupāda: So difficulty is that if we take charge, we may give it for worshiping to one disciple, but the immigration department will gag him. That is the difficulty. And we don't have many Indian disciples. Otherwise we can take all these important places. Jayapatākā: Also, last time I was in Calcutta and I saw Tarun Kanti Ghosh, then he mentioned to me again that the people from Panihati, this time that they had reached a decision that they wanted to give us the sevā of Rāghava Paṇḍita's house. Prabhupāda: So we take. Let us take it. Jayapatākā: That's a very important... But that's in dilapidated state. Prabhupāda: We shall repair. Jayapatākā: In the letter of the Home Minister where he said that every disciple can stay for two years, possibly if he allowed that in every center, if a minimum of a few people could stay for citizenship that might... Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: Ordinary, by rotation and three, two or three or four permanent, by citizen, if he allowed to stay... Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: Then that would solve the problem. Prabhupāda: Yes. That make. Jayapatākā: Not too many. Prabhupāda: Not too many. Say at least five. They will manage. Jayapatākā: Four or five. All others on rotation. Prabhupāda: They they will manage, and if they allow two years, that's all right. One devotee comes, another goes, another... That will be done. Jayapatākā: Because some that are acclimatized, it is difficult for training up. A few people are better to stay there that are trained up on that basis. I think with Mr. Putnaik and others that... Because he also wants that Orissan development... They can understand that it is important to have one or two people that are known people stay there. If every two years a change is, that is disadvantage. *Prabhupāda: No, our Gaura*-Govinda I think he is doing there nice. Jayapatākā: He's doing nice in Bhuvanesvar. Prabhupāda: Yes. He has already few cottages? Jayapatākā: Of course, I didn't see myself. I heard he has got a few cottages, three, four cottages. Prabhupāda: So our Gargamuni has seen? *Jayapatākā: Yes, I think Gargamuni has seen. Gargamuni is giving him some help. He printed one Orissan book, and he gives him sometimes some books and help. He is fixed up, that Gaura*-Govinda. Prabhupāda: He's fixed up. That's nice. Let him translate in Orissa and, if possible, in Hindi. And give him few devotees. Then he'll be encouraged. *Jayapatākā: I think he has got two or three devotees now. This man himself is a pretty capable worker. He's somewhat like Prabhu Swarupa, only a little older, little more mature. He's about forty*-five or so. He's been able to collect about, what I can see, about fifty thousand rupees for one nātha-mandira. And he has a couple thousand people. I heard from the Gauḍīya Maṭha. They say they have big utsavas there. Every year two three thousand people come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: So he's a capable... Prabhupāda: Manager. Jayapatākā: ...manager in his own right. He wanted to meet you. Prabhupāda: So let us cooperate with him. You take it. And he is there. In the meantime, our men may be trained up. Jayapatākā: He's invited us to come. He has some festival coming. Then we can just go... Prabhupāda: Yes. That... Jayapatākā: ...and keep a good relationship. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jayapatākā: The main one is in December. Prabhupāda: Our difficulty is this immigration. If we can manage this, then all such places we can take. There is no question. The only thing is that government is gagging. One has to go and it means ten thousand rupees unnecessarily. If that ten thousand rupees was invested in developing that center, much improvement could be done. But they are gagging. They are dreaming, "CIA." Jayapatākā: When I go back, I'll see this Rāghava Paṇḍita because there the MLA, he himself wants it because that's a very important place and it's going bad. Prabhupāda: So that MLA can help us to get some citizenship. Jayapatākā: With MLA and Tarun Kanti Ghosh... Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: ...we can use them for pushing because they are personally interested. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: they'll be able to help. *Prabhupāda: You can bring so many men and keep everyone in charge of such places, and it will develop. Money, there is no scarcity. But the difficulty is as soon as we establish, the immigration, "You go away." This is... What is this? You say the MLA and this Tarun Kanti." This is our difficulty. Otherwise there is no difficulty. We can take all the charge and develop them very nicely." So if one man is kept in charge, and after few months he's advised, "Go away," then all his training goes to hell and we have to spend another ten thousand rupees. This is the difficulty. What... We are not... Not a single case there is that we have taken any part in politics. So give us some facility. We can take charge of everything. Tell them that actually that is fact, that there is no scarcity of money. We can bring money from America and develop. There is no difficulty at all. The difficulty is the immigration department. You can say that "Prabhupāda has put this philosophy, andha..." What is that? Paṅgu. Andha*-paṅgu-nyāya. Blind and... Depends on this... Blind and... I think you have already know. Blind man, lame man. One man is blind, another man is lame. Both of them are useless. But when they combine, the blind man takes the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man gives direction to the blind man, "Go this way. Go this way." So he walks. So both of them are benefited. So America has got money but blind. And India has got culture but lame. So let us combine. Then things will be done very nice. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya. Just like I am the same man. I was finding difficulty to start this mission in India, very, very difficult. With great hardship I published three books. But as soon as I went America, the andha-paṅgu-nyāya became successful. So this is the the position. So instead of becoming envious from political... We have nothing to do with... To the Americans unnecessarily thinking that "CIA, CIA..." Let American money and India's culture combine together, and the whole world will be benefited. America has got enough money; *they can spend. Either they give me as the price of my book or anything, money is there like anything. India has got culture. So Indian culture, Vedic culture, Bhagavad*-gītā culture, pushed through American money, the whole world will be benefited. Convince them. It is not the question of India, America, here... It is a cultural movement for the benefit of the whole world. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma. It is cultural movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is aiming pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi. So Tarun Babu, you are such a devotee of Caitanya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants it. Pṛthivīte āche yata... Why don't you help us? Your family is devotee of Lord Caitanya, and this is spreading Caitanya's mission. You should give up everything and join this movement, if you are actually a devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And Prabhupāda says that he knows at your heart you want that Caitanya's movement is spread all over the world, so far he has studied you. So let us join together. Why we should unnecessarily be biased, American and Indian and this way and that way. Let us join together and spread Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement all over the... They'll be happy. Everyone they'll be happy. Will be happy. It is such a nice... India will be glorified. America will be glorified." If we... You came here. You have got so much strength. If you work continually, the whole world will be... So those who are offering, take. Take those places. Let us begin. If anyone wants some property, we should take immediately. You said there is already building costing fifty thousand? So that's a property. So if they are offering, you take it and develop. These are historical places. Haridaspur is also historical, I think. Hm? Jayapatākā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Vena? Venapur is nearby. Two miles. Jayapatākā: Two or three miles. Prabhupāda: That's it, the same facility, two or three miles. Jayapatākā: No, that's been, Haridaspur, since time of Lord Caitanya, for many, many years, four hundred... Right from the time of Lord Caitanya they are calling that. They say there's no doubt that Haridāsa Ṭhākura came that way. *Prabhupāda: That must be. It is 2*-two-three miles. If he was a person belonging to Venapur, so two-three miles surrounding he must have gone. There is no doubt. And if you can establish good relationship with Pakistan, Bangladesh, then our whole question is solved. Go there, seek some preaching and come here, and all these motor care problems... Gargamuni: I don't want to sell them, you know... Prabhupāda: No, it is a very... Gargamuni: Because we took great hardship to bring them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Why we should sell them? They are so useful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: They have done so much work already. *Prabhupāda: It is... Nowadays motor vehicle driving is an important item for anyone. We have spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness so quickly on account of the modern transport facilities, so we must take it as favorable. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Anukūla, favorable. Favorable, favorable. It is not we have got concern with material. That is not Rūpa Gosvāmī's... prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi... This cars can be used for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness; *why it should be condemned? That is not intelligence. Rūpa Gosvāmī condemns it. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Things which is in the service of the Lord, if we think it is material, then that is not vairāgya. That is not renouncement. That is foolishness. [Break] Jayapatākā: When I was traveling in Burdwan, there we saw the big palace of Maharaja of Burdwan Prabhupāda: Yes. *Jayapatākā: Gigantic. He has given that to the university. Then we did a kīrtana at his... He has one temple of Rādhā*-kānta. That's present ācārya is about a twenty-two-year old boy. He's in the sampradāya of Nimbārka Svāmī. So he doesn't know anything about, very much about spiritual life, although he is following the tradition. That's such a vast... That building is vast. I can't explain to you how big that is. It's at least five times bigger than our building in all ways, and... It is a huge compound. He has got much land in the name of the Deity. So he's becoming a member because he wants to read your books to understand about Lord Caitanya and spiritual... Prabhupāda: Now for making member you should be very clear so that no misunderstanding takes place. Books, we shall give five books. Gargamuni: Yes, that... Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: On my form I have already printed we give five books. Prabhupāda: "When you finish, you return this; you take another. When you finish that..." In this way. Gargamuni: What we've been doing with members in Calcutta, members who want more of the books, they sign the standing order and they pay us for the books. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Gargamuni: Every month. One book a month and they pay. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gargamuni: And they sign the standing order. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Gargamuni: So we have taken many personal standing orders. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gargamuni: We have one boy Santoṣa. He goes door to door, meeting Bengali men, and they are signing standing orders and taking Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. He has already done four standing orders in about ten days' time. Prabhupāda: Bengalis? Bengalis? Gargamuni: Yes, only to Bengalis. Because it's in their language... Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: They can read. Prabhupāda: No, it is in English. Anyone can. Gargamuni: Yes, but Bengalis, they can appreciate more Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Jayapatākā: I tell the members that "You can't get any Bhāgavatams," because there's too many. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why not? If he reads, give him. And it is very easy. Suppose I give you five books. You become member. So you read it and take another five books. This five books I can give to another. In this way we can manage. There is no misunderstanding. We give you book for reading, not for selling. Not that I have money. Now so many books, let me sell it and get return as many, as much money as possible." Bāniyā tendency is like that. Jayapatākā: Because they're paying 2,222 rupees. If they only give them five books on exchange, I don't think now they'll be satisfied. Prabhupāda: What for he's taking? Gargamuni: They're satisfied. Prabhupāda: No, no. Jayapatākā: Now we're giving them the books. Prabhupāda: No, no. Jayapatākā: We told them "You can't have any books." Prabhupāda: What is the cause of dissatisfaction? You take the books for reading, so you finish this and again we give five books. We take back this and give you in exchange. So actually we give them five books for good. That we are prepared. Five books at fifty rupees each, that one or 250. Jayapatākā: But they're giving two thousand rupees. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gargamuni: That's for membership. That isn't just for books. Sometimes they stay in our mandira. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: We pay for their prasāda. Prabhupāda: And three days, free boarding and lodging. In this way things should be clear so that in future they may not complain, "Ah, we...," as they are doing. Somebody is coming: "Oh we have given 1100 rupees to live forever." Some ladies came like that. Gargamuni: Yes, I know, I met that lady. Prabhupāda: Yes, they take it, advantage. "Oh, we shall get all books and live forever. There is no charge. Pay. "That misunderstanding should be... Gargamuni: So now we say they can live forever but as we live. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. That... That you can do. Gargamuni: Not that they will get special privilege of..., as hotel. Prabhupāda: But they want free hotel. That is... They want free. Jayapatākā: Sometimes old man who has got some money... Prabhupāda: No, old, old man is different. Jayapatākā: He wants to live, and he is too weak to do anything. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jayapatākā: He wants to chant and give some money. Prabhupāda: Let him purchase one room. Let him live... For life he can live, and we give him prasāda free. Jayapatākā: Purchase one room. Eight, ten thousand rupees. Prabhupāda: No, fifty thousand, I think. In Vṛndāvana we are selling sixty thousand. Sixty thousand. Gargamuni: No, but those rooms have attached baths. In our room there is no attached bath. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say in Vṛndāvana, that... Or anywhere. Whatever money is fixed up, let him pay, live in his room comfortably and we give him free prasāda. There is no harm. But he must attend the ārati and rules and regulations. There is no... Jayapatākā: No tea, nor... All the rules he should follow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: Attend the program. Prabhupāda: Even if old men cannot follow, still, he should be given. Gargamuni: What about tea? Prabhupāda: Tea. Tea can... Then he'll caught. That is not. Gargamuni: Because the old man they are addicted to the tea. Prabhupāda: No, what... Many old men, they can give it up. Gargamuni: We will promise them cow's milk. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Gargamuni: Pure cow's milk. Prabhupāda: That "instead of this tea, you take milk." Little milk, that is beneficial. So membership should be clearly defined so that they may not misunderstand. Gargamuni: But we're not having trouble now... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gargamuni: Because we printed a new form. And generally when members come they always donate more so we give them one book. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: They always... I visited one hundred members, and all of these old members, they gave one thousand. Prabhupāda: Just see. Yes, they will give. I know. Gargamuni: They'll give if you treat them nicely. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: And I gave them one book, and they're satisfied. Prabhupāda: Any person who has money, we'll receive. So many places they are offering us land... Gargamuni: There's another man who wants to give a big property. When you come to Calcutta he wants to see you. Prabhupāda: In Calcutta? Gargamuni: No, it's in Rajastan. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gargamuni: It's a place which he's not using. He met you in Bombay. He also visited our centers in Paris and New York. He's a Marwari man, very rich, very nice. He's also donated good sums to the society. So now he wants to meet you, and he wants someone to go there. So I told him we will go and look at it. Prabhupāda: Where? Gargamuni: It's in Rajastan. Prabhupāda: Rajastan? Where? Which side. Gargamuni: It's near Beekanair. It's with agricultural land and a big house. They said they spent about fifteen lacks on it, marble house. The family is not using it. They have no use. We're getting a lot of offers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: But because of Māyāpura, I have not taken them very seriously, because we already have huge affair in Māyāpura. But if you like, we can see. Prabhupāda: No, kāca dhun kāca kaphe (?): "If some property is offered, we should take it." That is the... And washed cloth. Kācā dhun kācā kapha (?). If somebody offers you very nicely washed cloth, you should use it. And some property, you must use it. They are... You can utilize this property by inhabiting the persons, if they are inclined to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are rotting outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They may come to live. We are for everyone. So he... Where does he reside, this gentleman? Gargamuni: In Calcutta. His businesses are there. He's a wealthy man, very nice man. Prabhupāda: Where does he live? Gargamuni: He's lives in Bara Bazaar. His name is Mr. Buwalka. Prabhupāda: Bara Bazara Marwaris are all businessmen. Gargamuni: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This combination of rich men, poor men, for Kṛṣṇa. The same*-andha-paṅgu-nyāya. Both of them are useless separately, and when they combine in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are all useful. It is very good example. And there is another example, that a piece of wire is falling, rotting, and a piece of bamboo, rotting, and a piece of squash skin is rotting. And one gentleman collected. He nicely trimmed the piece and dried the squash, the outer portion, and took the bamboo and nicely cut it and joined the string and this became a sitar: "Ting, ting, ting." So it is the intelligent person who joins all these things and makes it very useful. These are the examples. The bamboo alone is useless, and a small piece of wire, useless, and a thrown out squash skin, useless. But if you can join them together,...you can "Ting, ting. Similarly andha-paṅgu-nyāya. Here is a lame man; here is a blind man. All right, combine together and use them. That is wanted. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhi labhate. This wire does not change. It is wire. But when it is combined, it is useful. So our propaganda is, "They are separately planning useless. Let them combine together in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All this planning shall be successful. Jayapatākā: We were all useless in the West, but you have come and then engaged us. *Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Nobody is useless. I was also useless. I could not do in India alone anything. This is... Again this example (laughs). Two useless makes useful. Intelligence alone cannot work. Money is required. One man was challenged, "You have no intelligence." So he said, "Yes." He was searching these..."No, why you are searching here?" "No, here is intelligence. If here is money, then my intelligence can work. Otherwise what is the use of intelligence?" But he was searching here," Whether I have got intelligence?" Simply intelligence... In industry also: land labor capital, organization, four things. Simple capital will not do. Simple organization will not do. A man may have very good brain power, organization, but if he has no money*-useless. So four things required: land, labor, capital, organization. That minister in Raṅganātha (?), he is inclined to spend huge income of Tirupati, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But he is bound up by other colleagues. They are applying the money. So he's willing to call all the ministers if I can convince them. I shall try it. Just... In the Bhagavad-gītā, that is, yajñārthe karma. Everyone is karmī. So the karmīs, the village cultivators or big men industrialists, they are going to Tirupati. Whatever then can spare, they are offering. That is yajñārthe. If this money is taken and again if it is brought into karmī, then it is misleading. Karmīs are giving them. Just like people are giving us money. They are karmīs. But because they are giving us and we are engaging the money in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so the money is fully utilized. But if this money again taken and again to the karmīs.... Jayapatākā: Without any spiritual work. Prabhupāda: Then it is a farce. His purpose is served, but one who is misleading the..., he becomes criminal. Jayapatākā: The man who gives, his purpose is served. Prabhupāda: His purpose is served. Jayapatākā: The man who takes the money is... *Prabhupāda: He is to be punished. His misusing. Suppose in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement somebody gives us money. He is giving good faith that "It is very good organization." But if I misspend that money, then I am responsible. Then I'll be punished. His business is finished. Kṛṣṇa noted that he has given his hard*-earned money for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If I take that money... Instead of doing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if I use it for my sense gratification, then I'll be... Then I'll be responsible. What is the use of Kṛṣṇa's money being used in industry? Any purpose outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Let this money be utilized for spreading the glories of Kṛṣṇa. But they do not recognize Kṛṣṇa. All the so-called Bhagavad-gītā readers, they want to kill Kṛṣṇa. Gargamuni: Yes, that's a fact. The Calcutta plan that you had, it is still under consideration. At first the Calcutta corporation refused, but then Abhirāma saw the Minister of Municipal Affairs, Mr. Subata Mukerji. Prabhupāda: So I gave the meaning. Gargamuni: He said, "No, I want this." But there's still a problem, is that they'll allow a monument, but they don't want the Deity. They'll allow us to build a monument for Bhaktivedanta Swami but no Deity. Prabhupāda: Well, then take this proposal: "All right, no Deity." We shall hold meetings, lecture. What is that? In the park people come. And we decorate the whole hall with pictures. Gradually we worship one picture. Gargamuni: Later on, maybe we can put Deity. Once it's built, they cannot tell us to get out. Jayapatākā: That's what Mr. Choudhuri said. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: He said, "You can take and once a week you bring Deity and put, and other time you just do kīrtana." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jayapatākā: One week, it stays one week. Then it stays one month... Gargamuni: We can take the Deity for a walk around the park, and then into the hall for two hours... Prabhupāda: For some time, two hours. Gargamuni: And then take out. *Prabhupāda: Yes, then do that. And we are inviting everyone. We have no distinction. Anyone can come to the park. Convince them. (continued on another tape) "Come on! Take prasādam "sumptuously." They'll be satisfied. They are hungry. Actually they are hungry, poorly paid, capitalist and worker. The trouble is, capitalists, they are taking all the profit, and they are enjoying life in wine and women. Naturally the worker will see that "Why? We are working so hard, and they are making profit, and they are enjoying, and we do not live in a very nice house. It is a slum." Naturally they will be envious. If the capitalists spend the money for Kṛṣṇa consciousness*-in each and every factory they hold festivals and give them eatables like anything everything will be successful. Gargamuni: We tell them that "If you give your Kṛṣṇa tax, this will save you from the income tax. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Because they are raiding... Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: "...because you are hoarding. But if you give..." Prabhupāda: The industrialists... That is also one of our programs. Let them hold festivals every Sunday, as we hold. And we shall go and have kīrtana and sumptuous feeding give. They'll be very satisfied. And instead of giving the income tax, let them spend in this way. Convince them. Jayapatākā: At the factories. Weekly foodstuffs. They feed all the workers. We'll prepare the prasāda, offer to the Deity and feed to all the workers. Prabhupāda: They'll be satisfied. Gargamuni: Presently the building they're in now is unbearable, as far as living Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: Well, it is old building. Water supply is very bad. Prabhupāda: So you cannot... Gargamuni: It is a rotten building. Prabhupāda: Rotten cannot be repaired? Gargamuni: No. And the landlord won't allow him here. Prabhupāda: Why? Gargamuni: Because he wants to get us out... Prabhupāda: That's all right, but he... Gargamuni: But he won't allow any repair. You have to have his permission to get repair. If you don't get landlord's permission, then you cannot repair. You're forced to live in a slum. Prabhupāda: No, no, you require permission of the landlord if he pays. Gargamuni: No, no. Even if he doesn't. Any construction... Prabhupāda: No, I don't think that is the law. That is the law? I am feeling inconvenience; I cannot repair? Gargamuni: No. Jayapatākā: No, how that can be? You can tell the police. Gargamuni: No, then you have to go to the court, and that takes ten years. Just like he's in the court for five years now. He is not taking our rent. Prabhupāda: Then let us repair. Let him go to the court. Because by repairing, we have broken the law, so let him go to the court. The same logic. Gargamuni: Actually, Abhirāma... Also the facility for living there is only good for five or six persons. Otherwise it is not good. So they want to get a building. Prabhupāda: So what happened to the corner house? What happened to the corner house? Gargamuni: No, that is still there. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you purchase it? Gargamuni: Which corner one? The one right across? Prabhupāda: Yes. Left corner. Gargamuni: No, but that's even worse condition than what we have. Prabhupāda: No no, we break it and prepare nice temple. Gargamuni: He went to see that man. That man doesn't want to sell. Prabhupāda: What was the... Gargamuni: He's one of these Marwaris who is very miser. He himself lives in a slum. Jayapatākā: But right now Abhirāma hasn't found another place. Gargamuni: I just talked to him. Jayapatākā: He told me ten minutes ago. Gargamuni: So they are thinking they want to get... Prabhupāda: And one thing is that next thing will be... Now there are many flats. Gargamuni: Now, we have one flat that we are renting. Prabhupāda: Not renting. Purchase. Gargamuni: Well, the only thing is with these flats in Calcutta, they are so mismanaged, these new places. They become a slum in two months. In Bombay the flats are managed nicely, but in Calcutta when they build a new one, within two months the whole thing is filthy dirty. The elevators don't work. It's not worth purchasing a flat. I have one now. I am renting. It's on the twelfth floor, and the members of our traveling party stay there. There is nice water and so many things. But the building is so mismanaged. Who wants to stay there more than a year? We need our own place. Then we can keep it clean and nice. Prabhupāda: Where is that own place? Gargamuni: Well, there are buildings that we can get. In Balijunj we have some offers. That's if this park doesn't come through. If the park does not come through, then we can... Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all all try to make... This is the best place in Calcutta. Jayapatākā: I personally went with Abhirāma to see the minister, and the minister didn't give any stipulation. He was only for the project. His only reservation was that, he said first of all, politically, he doesn't know about our society. If the government home department says that it's all right... As far as the program is, the plan that was given, he totally accepts it as it is. Gargamuni: That's when I saw him. Jayapatākā: Since then, Abhirāma has not seen him. But the people in the corporation, they have refused it without his sanction and they have written him that the minister said he does not want it. When we took that. We showed it to the minister. He said, "This is completely wrong." He said, "No, no, no! There is some misunderstanding." Then he said, "You write me a letter that there is some misunderstanding, and I will take care of this matter." Gargamuni: So he wrote the letter and now they forward that letter back to the Calcutta corporation without a letter from the minister. Because he went back there. He just told me that. So it's back again to the same guys who, you know... Of course, I don't know what letter he has written, but the officers would not tell us anything. Anyway, we will try our best. Prabhupāda: Why not take the Victoria Memorial? What is, they are doing? Jayapatākā: I have never gone inside. I heard it is simply old English armor and some swords. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen. Gargamuni: And the marble is turning black. Prabhupāda: Because they don't... Gargamuni: They don't clean it. Jayapatākā: How they can afford to maintain such a building? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa will maintain. We can utilize it properly. Jayapatākā: And we'll have British pūjārīs. For the glory of Queen Victoria. Prabhupāda: Victoria. Let them send. Tell them that we shall bring. Victoria has... Let them send to worship Victoria with prasādam of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is real Victoria Memorial. Jayapatākā: That is putra. (kīrtana in the background throughout this conv.) Prabhupāda: Yes, great grandson. Putra is great... The putra was that Edward Seventh. Jayapatākā: No, but to lift from hell. When she gets prasādam. *Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Pun*-nārakāt trāyate iti putra.(?) Victoria died in 1903. There was great function, and this building started in 1903, and it was finished in 1922. Jayapatākā: After her death. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Kurgeon's plan... Lord Kurgeon wanted that let there be asking of India from the family of Victoria. He gave this plan. But this Parliament did not want that Englishman shall make India home. Then his interest will be in India. Just like America. Englishmen, as they made America their home, they declared independence. Australia. As soon as you make a home, then the more interest will be in India. Washington was Englishman. Was he not? Washington. Jayapatākā: Yes. Well, everyone came from England. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not from England. But ordinary... So Englishman, why he declared war against the English? Jayapatākā: Their interest was in America more than England. Prabhupāda: Yes. Naturally. So as soon as you make home, your interest will be at home. So that was their policy. In those days no Englishman was allowed to purchase property in India. All his income, money, should go to England. So the Mohammedan Moguls, they made their home in India. Therefore they stayed for eight hundred years. They would not have gone. Indians did not like to finish the Mohammedan kingdom. No, never. It is the Englishmen. They penetrated and finished them, not the Indians. Indians were not against the Mohammedans. They are going on. Little bit discrepancies were there, especially during the time of Auranzeb. He was bigot Mohammedan. He hated the Hindus. Not hated, but he was a, was is called, bigot, Mohammedan? He did not hate. That was not his qualification. Auranzeb gave many contributions to the Vṛndāvana temples. Yes. And Auranzeb's grandfather, Jahangir, he gave so many temples to many brāhmaṇas. There is one village just opposite Vṛndāvana, Keśīghāṭa, Jahangipura. This village was given to a brāhmaṇa. From the income he was maintaining a temple. And Auranzeb... You know Sringarpat Goswami? Devotee 1: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Shankar Kumar has brought the food and all these things to his place. So if you like you to afterwards or take here or what would you like? Prabhupāda: No, no, let them take. Devotee 1: Pradyumna thought that you wanted to take with them. Prabhupāda: So I can take, but you'll take... Devotee 1: They have their food and you will also have... Prabhupāda: No, what is that? Let them take here in the temple. Devotee 1: In the temple? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I will have to take at least one hour, how they will wait? Jayapatākā: Better they take separate. Prabhupāda: So Indians did not like that Mohammedans may go away. Rather, when Shri Raj Birla (?) was arrested by flight, the Bengali zamindars, they protested. Rani Bhavani, she protested. Although it is alleged that Shri Raj Birla (?) kidnapped her daughter. But if Shri Raj Birla kidnapped her daughter, how he (she) supported Shri Raj Birla? There are so many falsehoods. On the whole, the Indians never planned to drive away the Mohammedans. They never. That's a fact. They were happy because there was no exploitation. All these Mohammedans, they made their home in India, so whatever lavishly they were spending, that was coming to the Indians. In Taliganj (?) there is a man. Now they are aristocratic family. He was servant of the nawab, and he stolen one shoes, one feet, which was bedecked with jewels. So by selling that jewel he became a rich man. So although they were using jewelled shoe, but it was in India. They were satisfied that "I am nawab. I am using jeweled shoes." But the jewelled shoes was in India and these Englishmen, they have taken away all the jewels even from the walls and keeping them in their homes, all gold, jewels, everything. Gargamuni: Yeah. That's a fact that in those old houses, the Marwaris they have inherited of all these pieces. Now they have it all. In the old British houses many Marwaris have taken over, and they have inherited all of the treasures of the British. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gargamuni: Many antiques. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyway, if I take away something from you in this room and I keep it somewhere in this room, then where is the difference either with you or with me? That was going on during Mohammedans' ruling. But these people, they took away from the room. So India became poverty*-stricken. Jayapatākā: One more thing. Locally that bank that opened there... Prabhupāda: They are... They are crazy fellows. Gargamuni: That bank is worthless. They don't know anything about banking. They are farmers. Prabhupāda: Forget it. If bank like Central bank or United, that bank... They are useless, and they are asking ten lakhs of rupees deposit. Jayapatākā: Five lakhs. They will give interest. They'd like a fixed amount... Prabhupāda: So who believes them? Gargamuni: No, but I don't trust that bank because they already tried... They kept fifty thousand rupees. It took us two weeks to get that. Jayapatākā: They didn't have any signature. Gargamuni: It doesn't matter, though. It's still... Prabhupāda: They are not... It is a small cultivator's cooperative. Gargamuni: I wouldn't trust a small bank. At any time they can lose. They only have three or four branches. Jayapatākā: They're backed by the Reserve Bank. Gargamuni: It doesn't matter. Jayapatākā: What do you mean, it doesn't matter? What big bank? Prabhupāda: Then who is going to deposit five lakhs of rupees with them? That is not possible. Jayapatākā: Yes, that's all right, but as far as the bank goes... Prabhupāda: That's all right. We can go on without the business. We cannot deposit. Jayapatākā: Any banker goes there, they'll want a deposit. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why should we deposit five lakhs of rupees? The money value is decreasing daily. Jayapatākā: We get credit. Prabhupāda: If you deposit five lakhs now, it will decrease value in five, ten months. The purchasing power of money is decreasing. Now what you can purchase with five lakhs of rupees, after five years you'll require ten lakhs. So your money will decrease. And if you invest that money in land, after five years it will increase to its full extent (?). So why should we waste our money? What is the benefit? Gargamuni: The farmers don't keep their money in the banks. The government is trying to force the farmers to keep their money in the bank. The farmers don't want to do it. Prabhupāda: Farmers' policy is if they have got money, they purchase land. Therefore they are making ceiling. The whole policy is not so good (?). Farmers, as soon as they get some money, they want to invest the land but the ceiling..., so they cannot invest money in the land; they give to the bank. And as soon as you keep money in the bank it will decrease the value. This is... Money is decreased, value of all over the world. Because it is not money actually; it is paper, cheating. Real money is gold. But they will now allow to keep the gold. The whole policy is vicious. If I purchase gold with five lakhs of rupees, then it is real money, and after five years I can sell it ten lakhs. That they will not allow. Therefore I... My policy is that whatever money is there, spend. Don't keep. In land and produce food. That is the best use of. All buildings, government (for men?), there is no need of. And instead of keeping money and take interest, you print books. That is also good. You can sell. Or you purchase land for producing food. Gargamuni: If we stock money, then there'll be no preaching. But if we print books, then we have to sell the books. So that is preaching. Prabhupāda: Therefore I am insisting all over, "Print any book." Never mind either Hindi or English or... Print book and keep it in stock, nicely. Gargamuni: And gradually we will sell. Then we will preach. Otherwise, if we... Prabhupāda: That is the purpose of my Bhaktivedanta Trust. Fifty percent must be spent for printing and fifty percent for building. That's all. No money. Don't keep any account. Gargamuni: Then the government will never get envious because there's nothing there. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we haven't got to keep so many accountant, auditors, and other nonsense, unnecessary things. As soon as there is collection, invest the money in some building or in making some book, book printing. Follow this policy. I am very much eager. I have got money here and there, but I want to spend it in this way. So therefore I am advising take this. We shall invest renovating them and in developing them. Spend money. Don't keep money. Jayapatākā: Yes. So I'll tell them our policy is changed. We don't keep any more money in fixed deposit because it's a losing bargain? Prabhupāda: That's it. Actually it is losing. Actually it is losing. Every day the price... Just like the price of rice has increased. Jayapatākā: It is up and down. *Prabhupāda: Up and down, now... Take it. When it goes up it does not come down, generally. So this is practical example. Two months ago you were purchasing two rupees*-now two-eighty. So where is the value of the money? Gargamuni: If we invest in books... Just like this little pamphlet I printed. It cost me fifty paisa. If we sell it in one month... Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Then we will get fifty paisa profit. We will double our investment. Prabhupāda: That was nicely... That was nicely printed. So in this way invest our books or land. We don't want to keep cash. Jayapatākā: And if they want to keep branch or not, that is up to them. We can't give them any money. If they want to keep branch or not, that's up to them. Prabhupāda: That should be up to them. If they keep branch we can take that. They'll go on. Gargamuni: We will tell them frankly that for us to invest in books is more profitable because after one month we get more. *Prabhupāda: We cannot keep money and without any... They will give interest. What is that interest? And he said we have printed fifty paisa and selling hundred paisa. So that much interest they cannot give. They'll give, utmost, ten percent. Ten percent per annum*-not even one percent in a month. Gargamuni: Your books will be our bank. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got business. Why shall I keep in the bank? This is the policy. If your money is idle, we can spend it in our books, in our purchasing land in temple, constructing temple, developing... So where you got that water? Water's there? Don't touch that water. Hari-śauri: No, there's one bucket of mixed with half a bucket of hot water. Yesterday what happened, the tank, some blockage... (End) *Room Conversation-*-August 20, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: ...disorder. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...everything to Bombay. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It is very convenient. Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that is better. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I moved everything to Bombay. Prabhupāda: The main distribution should be from Bombay. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Now because this Usa Printers is much bigger also, and we're getting better quality. Prabhupāda: So, what news, Bombay? Saurabha: The festival was a great success. We counted approximately, for the last two days, twenty thousand people must have come. Prabhupāda: Somebody said five hundred. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Somebody came and said that six hundred people Janmāṣṭamī night. Saurabha: It was packed. They were... Prabhupāda: I was surprised. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was surprised myself that six hundred people on Janmāṣṭamī night. Saurabha: They were everywhere. Prabhupāda: Who is that nonsense who came and said this? Who is that rascal? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a thirteen*-year-old boy. Prabhupāda: Oh. You believe the boy? He's authority. Here you take the information. Why did you believe the boy? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, He wasn't here. He just told me last night. I asked him. Prabhupāda: Then how did you believe that boy? Five hundred. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was very surprised myself. Prabhupāda: I know that so many people come, even in ordinary years. Saurabha: They were sitting everywhere, even on the balconies and in the scaffolding. They were everywhere. Very crowded. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The press and the television people came? Every year the television comes. They televise this? Saurabha: The Telenews. Prabhupāda: I was surprised when I heard five hundred. They boycotted or what? Saurabha: For the abhiṣeka ceremony, that lasted about an hour, up till one o'clock, and everyone remained. There were thousands of people. They were just everywhere around. Prabhupāda: I will give you one śālagrāma-śilā. So as it is being worshiped in Māyāpura, it should be worshiped in Bombay also. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to start it now or in the new temple? Prabhupāda: No, now. Śālagrāma-śilā. It is not difficult. You have seen śālagrāma-śilā? Saurabha: I have seen. Prabhupāda: So you'll take it and... Saurabha: I'm going back tomorrow night. Prabhupāda: So you can take it. So what other news? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What other news, Prabhupāda? Saurabha: Well, now the festival is over, all the holidays are gone, so there's a big crew of people working now. It goes very fast. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Saurabha: And we're putting in the walls of your room. We have started... Prabhupāda: What is the length and breadth of my room? Saurabha: Well, it has different shapes. It's difficult to say. But the main room, the sitting room, is about, altogether, about 900 square foot. (loud cracking sound) Prabhupāda: Oh, this business is going on. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Mahāṁśa went down and stopped it. Prabhupāda: Everyone can go, but the business will go on. Saurabha: So that is your sitting room. Then you have a bedroom. Prabhupāda: What is the sitting room? Saurabha: That is about 900, 850 square foot. Prabhupāda: Eight hundred means length and breadth? Saurabha: Because it consists of three rooms. Prabhupāda: So people were enthusiastic to come to our festival? Saurabha: Oh, yes, very much. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Saurabha: And this place, when it is finished, it will be the most popular temple in Bombay. Prabhupāda: They have done. *Saurabha: It's already the biggest. So this is the building, (unfolding plans) and these three rooms-this is 32 by 32*-is your sitting room where you can receive people. Then here is your bedroom, and here is the secretary room, here is kitchen, and here is servant room. So personally you have this, four rooms. Prabhupāda: What are these? Saurabha: This is the elevator. Prabhupāda: Oh. Saurabha: Then this is the entry where the people can wait in case many people are there. Here's the secretary. This is the kitchen and... Hari-śauri: Bathroom? Saurabha: That is... That is... Like those things come out here. That is all connected with the room. So your bathroom, you have one toilet here and one shower here, each side. Prabhupāda: That's good. Saurabha: This is very nice, quite big. Then on the roof you have practically the whole roof plus a room in the middle. Here is a room on the roof, the next slide, room here, and then you have just a nice terrace and very nice breeze. Prabhupāda: All sides open. *Saurabha: Yes this is open. Well, we have arches here, just arches. Now we are finishing for the temple the second floor slab. That should be finished at the end of the month, and then one more month, the main slab of the darśana*-maṇḍapa, and then we start towers, which we already started now precasting. We have rings. We make rings which we put up later, one by one. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is by ring. Saurabha: Yes, we make rings out of concrete and then we... With a rod we keep holes in it and then we just put them on top and it's... Because for Māyāpura, we get into Māyāpura we trying it out if that is possible to do that there, because there are so many domes. This system is very practical because you can cast at site, and then with a crane you bring it up and then it's fixed. Because this short ring, to make a tower on top of a building is very troublesome. Prabhupāda: This ring, concrete ring? Saurabha: Yes, concrete. Reinforced. Most of the rings are one foot and some, when it is straight, you make two feet. It depends. Then all the guest rooms we have marble on the floor, because that is very much liked in Bombay especially, to have marble. The halls, they are kota stone. Prabhupāda: So there is proposal to provide a bank? Saurabha: Yes. I have the area already marked out. There's about four or five banks that are very interested. Prabhupāda: Which bank are these? Saurabha: The Indian Overseas Bank. That is the bank most interested at the time now. Then the State Bank of India. Prabhupāda: State Bank of India. That is better. Saurabha: That is better. Then the Syndicate Bank and the... Prabhupāda: So the charges will be four rupees. Saurabha: Four or four and a half. Prabhupāda: Yes. So best. Whoever gives the best. Saurabha: And then one year in advance payment? Prabhupāda: Yes, if we get from... Saurabha: Of course, the location is excellent. It is... This is... There's two towers, and here is the road. Here is that, our road, going to our land in the back. Here is the main entry. Here is the temple in the back. So these two on the ground floor are meant for bank. So people can come right from here, and here is an entry. So place is the best for the bank. So they all want that place. So you think State Bank of India is the best? Prabhupāda: No, as you think? Saurabha: I don't know very much, but Gopāla said that the Indian Overseas Bank is an upcoming bank as well as Syndicate Bank, so they may be more eager for this. Prabhupāda: Syndicate Bank is not very... Saurabha: I also think to have a big bank is better. Prabhupāda: Big bank is better. And who pays the best price. *Saurabha: The best. And also the facilities. Now, in the floor we start tiling, the basement floor... Under the Deities there we have a basement. So there we have started the flooring, tiling, and now we have decided on all the other parts of the building, for the stone. So they promised, they guaranteed, that at the end of this year the building*-that means the guesthouse-will be completed. And of course, that includes the temple. The only thing which will definitely go on is the marble work, the carving. That is a very big job. But that we can always continue. That is mainly outside work, finishing. So that we get the inside ready for the opening. Prabhupāda: ISKCON Juhu? That is sufficient address? *Saurabha: Well, this was hand*-delivered. It would be nice if... I think now it is sufficient. Many letters come like that now. Prabhupāda: No, we are famous now, Juhu. Saurabha: But your official letters, the name of the street is called A. B. Nyer Road. I never knew that. I thought it was the road in the back. Prabhupāda: No, they said Gandhi, Juhu Road? Saurabha: No. Now on the latest letter that I got from the government it was written A. B. Nyer Road. Maybe it was an old letter, I don't know. When we submitted the new plans for the gurukula building, there was a letter I had to sign about the work, that we have given to the architect, an official letter so that we can get the permission. And it was written that the plot was on the A. B. Nyer Road, our land. So I inquired, and they said, "Yes, that's the name of that road." Prabhupāda: Is there any signboard, A. B. Nyer Road? Saurabha: No. Prabhupāda: Then? *Saurabha: That is only in the back near that new hotel, that Holiday Inn Hotel. This one portion says A. B. Nyer Road. So that road goes like this*-here is the Juhu Market and the road goes... Prabhupāda: No, we go on as Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. Saurabha: Yes, that is... You don't have to say the road. Prabhupāda: Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. *Saurabha: Yes. Everyone knows. It's no problem. Now, the altar of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, I sent you a picture that showed four columns*-one here, one here, one here, and then the top. Here is Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, and here is Lalitā-Viśākhā. Those columns here, they're not in the front but they're in the back only. In front it is open. Prabhupāda: Open. That's nice. Saurabha: So then that is all right to use that one? Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: Because we need more breadth; this is different size. So that work has been started also, and it will be covered in silk. Prabhupāda: You have seen this temple? Saurabha: I have not gone around, but it looks very nice. Prabhupāda: It is after your design. Saurabha: Yes. But I haven't been in Hyderabad for at least eight months. Prabhupāda: They have done nice. Saurabha: Yes. Mahāṁśa Swami has done very nice. There's many good workers also in the south of India. We have a lot of difficulty in getting those men from Vṛndāvana sent to America for Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Is he anxious to get them? Saurabha: Well, simply because they didn't speak English they delayed so much. Prabhupāda: Now, Kīrtanānanda did not show any anxiety for that. He did not show any anxiety like that, he requires that. So why it is? Saurabha: Well, at that time they wanted. Prabhupāda: That time wanted? That is finished now. Don't bother. Saurabha: All right. Because I spent a lot of time in trying to arrange that. Prabhupāda: That was not successful. That's all right. Saurabha: No. That work is going nice also, isn't it, flooring especially. Prabhupāda: Marble. Saurabha: In New Vrindaban. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them do their own. Saurabha: They practically do everything themselves. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Saurabha: That is their greatness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Their men are being trained up. Saurabha: That is actually the best. Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: They will be engaged always like that. *Prabhupāda: They have got marble*-polishing machine. Saurabha: Yes. Last night I spoke with Jayapatākā Mahārāja, and he says that the land requisition will be in about two months or something. So whether we should go ahead with trying to purchase land before we wait till...? Prabhupāda: Purchase land? Saurabha: Well, that particular area where the main temple will come, we need about... Prabhupāda: So let us wait. Saurabha: Let us wait. So can I start in the meantime to develop the plans? Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: To contact engineers and everything? Now, if I have to pay some money for that type of work, do I take it from the Bombay...? It is not much, but some money is there, some expense is there. Prabhupāda: So... [break] ...immediately... You have waited. Why not wait till the reception is there? Saurabha: I have some people, they do practically things for free. They work on it. But they only do that because they know in the future we're going to do it. So if there is too much delay, they may lose faith. *Prabhupāda: Delay? But that's a fact. Unless government gives us land... [break] ...but we... We are not Kṛṣṇa. But if we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious Vaiṣṇavas, then our position is strong, If there is slackness, then they will come to kill us. That we have to see. Āpani ācari' prabhu jīve śikhāilā. Our behavior should be very clear. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." Then it will be... This Aghāsura, Bakāsura, will come and... In the beginning there was Aghāsura, Pūtanā. That Devānanda, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Film," he wanted to do some harm. And he is gone, finished. Nobody talks of Devānanda. They talk of our movement. So if you remain strong in your spiritual activities, these Aghāsura, Bakāsura will come, go. But we should take precaution and counteract to reduce them. Real strength will remain from Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma's strength. Balarāma. Balarāma means strength. Nāyam ātmā bala hīna na labhyaḥ.(?) If you are not supported by Balarāma, then it is not possible. So we have got our Balarāma, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple. Now in Europe we have got Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In France. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Which place? Outside? The farm? Prabhupāda: Very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Exactly like Vṛndāvana, I heard. The Deities are exactly... *Prabhupāda: Nitāi*-Gaura and Balarāma. Brajendra-nandana jei kṛṣṇa, śaci-suta haila sei: "He is now Śacī-suta." Balarāma haila nitāi: "And Balarāma has become Nitāi." That's all. These two brothers. And devotees are very nice. So if our devotees remain... Two hundred devotees there are. And they are taking prasāda on the open lawn. Very nice. Presently they are growing vegetables sufficient for their consumption and for the Paris temple. Fresh, nice vegetables. Flowers, grains also they have got. Barley and wheat. Milk also. Their own cows. Gargamuni: Cows. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So if there is milk, there is food grain, there is vegetable, so what do you want more? Enough we can grow. They have got two hundred acres of land. Some portion of the land they are utilizing. That is becoming sufficient for them. And if they grow the whole land, they can make good trade. Just like in Philadelphia they are producing so much milk, they are selling outside fifteen hundred dollars per month. Fifteen hundred dollars, how much it is? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fourteen thousand. Saurabha: Twelve thousand. Prabhupāda: That is their income. Philadelphia they have organized very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Port Royal farm. Prabhupāda: And this Paramānanda, he is expert. He's very expert. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He was in New Vrindaban before. Prabhupāda: Yes. So he could not keep in line with Kīrtanānanda. (laughs) Gargamuni: I thought he was in New York farm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the New York farm. Prabhupāda: That is. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in Philadelphia. Gargamuni: Yes, I heard it is very good there. Prabhupāda: His wife is... They are making... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Satyabhāmā. Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭis. When she brought, it was so thick. And "How shall I eat this?" But when I ate it was so nice. Soft and sweet. I ate everything. Jayapatākā: Devotees have brought from the farm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe she should come here to cook for you. *Prabhupāda: Oh, maybe. No, they are very happy. All the boys and girls are very happy. Sit down. So that I want, that I live happily and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want unnecessary luxury. Anartha. Anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Anartha should be reduced, nil, bare necessities. Anartha... Just like this material thing we require for preaching. That is not anartha. But when it is used for sense gratification, that is anartha. Anything for sense gratification, that is unwanted, anartha. And anything for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is spiritual. Jayapatākā: Anukūla. Prabhupāda: Anukūla. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. So whatever we are using, that is not material. It is all spiritual. So what are these? So... *Mahābhārata* Sunday? (?) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I've cancelled it. I'll send tickets for... Prabhupāda: So two strong opinion was against. One Kanadaji (?), another Gargamuni. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Another? Prabhupāda: Gargamuni. He was also not in favor, going to Hill Station. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, that's fine. When you come to Bombay in October, you can go, October or November, whenever you come... *Prabhupāda: Hill Station, I have also heard-I do not know*-that during rainy season they get some diarrhea. Get some diarrhea. And that hill diarrhea is not... Gargamuni: Good. Prabhupāda: Not at all. Gargamuni: Best season for Hill Station is May and June. May and June. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's when most people go, in the summer months. Gargamuni: Very nice. Very warm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Summer period. Saurabha: Most people in the rainy season, they all leave that place, many houses. They close it all. Gargamuni: Yes. In Simla and Nanital everyone leaves after June. Saurabha: But after the rainy season? Gargamuni: Yes, in October again they go back. Prabhupāda: Rainy season is bad on the whole. Saurabha: That place. But the rest of the year it's excellent. Prabhupāda: That all right. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But I've told that Mr. Malhotra to come and see you here... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...directly, because he wants to meet you. Actually he wasn't... After meeting you he'll decide. Twenty*-five acres of land. It has a dak(?) bungalow. Saurabha: Yes, we went there about one and a half months ago. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We saw the place. Prabhupāda: So can you... You have... Give me a site plans. Saurabha: Yes, I... Approximately? Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: You want me to show you? Prabhupāda: No, you can... Not immediately... You can give me very nice, where is the bungalow, where is the... You can give. Saurabha: But these two people, they are very much in favor. All the time when we went... Prabhupāda: No, if it is nice, we shall take it. Why not? Saurabha: It is beautiful. It's very beautiful. Prabhupāda: It's near Bombay. So if you can go and come... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bombay is going to be so big when the building is completed. Saurabha: It's on a hill, but the land is flat so you can cultivate it. Prabhupāda: Very good. Saurabha: It's excellent. And from there you can see down. You look down, and then you see the river Krishna. Prabhupāda: It is a plateau. Saurabha: Yes, a plateau. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: See the river Krishna. Saurabha: Yes, you can just see the river flowing down there. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is beautiful spot. Saurabha: It's very, very beautiful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And he wants us to develop it. Prabhupāda: Oh, we develop. We shall spend lakhs, two lakhs, three lakhs, as you... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So he wants us to give him a proposal... Saurabha: And it has been... They have been doing agriculture before there, so it's in very good state. You don't have to do much. Prabhupāda: Oh, then we shall take it. What is use of waiting? He has seen already. Take it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no, he wanted you to see it. Prabhupāda: That, we shall go in October. We shall go. So when Saurabha has seen, that is my seeing. You give me a site plan. And we shall take it and develop it. Gargamuni: So many of our men get ill health. They can go there... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: ...and then come back. Then we don't have to send them to America... Prabhupāda: No. Gargamuni: ...because of being sick. Prabhupāda: No. *Gargamuni: We need a place*-health. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda wrote, he wrote that to me last year, to get a Hill Station... Prabhupāda: Yes. The Mahabaleswar(?) is well known. Yes. Jayapatākā: They have nice cows there, nice vegetables. Saurabha: Oh, yes. Everywhere... What is the name of that root we ate on ekādaśī? Prabhupāda: So take it and develop according to your plan. Develop. Saurabha: It's a place known for strawberry cultivation. Prabhupāda: What do you think will be the expenditure to develop it into a nice place? *Saurabha: For agriculture I can't say, but according to me, it is all level. They have leveled everything out. It's like terrace. It's just... We can start growing anything there*-potatoes, grains, strawberries, fruits. Prabhupāda: Now for residential quarter there is already bungalow. Saurabha: There is a bungalow with four big... It's a big bungalow. And stone is available there, just like here in Hyderabad. At the back of the land it's like a rocky area. One small portion that is so much stone there available, so you can just build from the stone anything. The land can be used for the cement, instead of cement. So very cheap you can build there. Prabhupāda: One lakh rupees? No. Saurabha: Well, it depends how many devotees are going to stay. But for a farm, I think ... Prabhupāda: Say ten rooms. Saurabha: Ten rooms. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The gṛhasthas from Bombay could be moved over there. Prabhupāda: No, gṛhasthas can live, go to the farm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they can go from Bombay to there. They can cultivate our farm. Saurabha: For sixty thousand rupees we can build sufficient accommodation, and then the rest we need... Prabhupāda: So we can spend up to one lakh and make more rooms. Saurabha: Yes. And when you come there the house is sufficient for you to stay. It's very nice. Big rooms. Prabhupāda: So we shall go in October. Saurabha: There's three big wells available. Three big wells are there. Prabhupāda: Wells? Very good. Saurabha: Three. And according to me, these people, they also want to invest money in that project. The people themselves, they also want to give money for developing. No? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. They want to turn it over to us... Prabhupāda: And that do. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...if we give them guarantee that we will develop it. Prabhupāda: No, no, we shall do. You guarantee that. Decision is made. So you can take. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And from what I've heard, this Malhotra is a very*-Girirāja told me-very, very nice man. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is not going to... He's a very, very rich man himself, so he's not really trying to cheat us or anything. Prabhupāda: That decision is made. It is a very well known place, Mahabaleswar. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Mahabaleswar. Saurabha: Just on the other side of the plateau you have that RMA, ARA? Prabhupāda: Aurobindo? Saurabha: No. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Mahabaleswar is also the summer capital of Mahara... All the government ministers have been meeting there. And this Bhogilal Patel's son, he was saying that he knows all the big people there. Sītā, Rāma, (indistinct) he's the chairman of the local municipality... Prabhupāda: So we must have a big temple there. Saurabha: MRA? It's a moral institute. It's very big. Prabhupāda: MRA? Saurabha: MRA, yes. Prabhupāda: Moral...? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Moral Re*-armament. Prabhupāda: Yes. Saurabha: It's just on the other side. Prabhupāda: So it is still existing? Saurabha: Oh, yes. The building is excellent, but nothing is going on. Only twice a year they have a meeting. But it's very well built. Prabhupāda: Their propaganda is that "You do sinful. You do whatever you like. You simply admit. Confession. Then you'll be..." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Atone. *Prabhupāda: This is morality. "You commit immorality as much as you like. You simply admit it. Then it's right" (indistinct) This is their propaganda. They do not want to stop immorality. "You do, and don't hide it*-you admit." But persons are so shameless that they will continually do, and they have no shamefulness to hide even. That is the Christian theory, that "Our religion is so... Maybe we are unable to remain without any sin. Christ will excuse us." Is it not? This is going on. This is. Saurabha: They're also criticized a lot there. They have been criticized a lot there locally. People, they think they are CIA. Prabhupāda: Oh. Us? Saurabha: No. The MRA. Because they have big meetings twice a year only. Prabhupāda: The MRA, they are Americans? Saurabha: Yes. Most are Europeans, Americans. Prabhupāda: This movement was started by President Eisenhower with the help of a Christian priest. Saurabha: Now the son of Gandhi, he is the main president... Prabhupāda: Who? Saurabha: The son of Mahatma Gandhi. Prabhupāda: Shri Ramdal(?) Gandhi? Saurabha: He's the head man of that institute there. And then some very big European industrialist they are also involved. They've spent two crores of rupees on that complex. It's very well maintained also. I went into the building. It's excellent. But there is nobody. Prabhupāda: Eh? Nobody. [break] So it is immediately cut. Mahāṁśa: The door is ready, so when you go for a bath... Prabhupāda: No, he can come. Mahāṁśa: Now he can come? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa Swami is nicely doing (?). Hari-śauri: He's very sincere. Prabhupāda: And everyone likes him. Hari-śauri: Yes. He's very popular with the life members. Prabhupāda: He has no enemy. Nobody has complained against him. *Hari-śauri: He's very even*-tempered. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Neither he has complained against anybody. He does not complain, and nobody complains against him. His mother was very much sorry. Now she is very happy. Hari-śauri: He joined in the West? Prabhupāda: He is Parsee. Hari-śauri: He's not Indian. Prabhupāda: No, he is Indian. India, there is Parsee community. Indian Parsee means that originally they come from Iran. They are Iranian. But on account of Muhammadans forcibly standing within way... Aurangzeb came. Muhammadans they came, they fled from Iran and took shelter in the western part of India. They took shelter in Gujarat. Persia... I think Iran was known as Persia. Hari-śauri: Yes. At least that area, anyway. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are known as Parsee. In their ritualistic ceremonies some (indistinct) do with women... (?) Hari-śauri: Yes. I saw all the women, they keep themselves covered and everything. Prabhupāda: Sari? Hari-śauri: Most of them were wearing trousers. Prabhupāda: No. Parsees are well known for saris. Hari-śauri: In Iran, though, I saw most of the women wear... Under those black veils they were actually wearing trousers. Prabhupāda: Not wearing saris? (pause) We have no problems except this immigration. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's the main thing. Prabhupāda: Otherwise we have no problem. Hari-śauri: By the time they've finished all their investigations, they'll... Eventually they'll have to let us come. At least maybe in Calcutta it will be easier. In Calcutta, with the authorities there, if we get this... If we start building Māyāpura, then they'll be a lot more lenient than they've been before. Prabhupāda: That is already... Hari-śauri: Yes. They've taken the best area. Prabhupāda: I think this leg swelling is gone. Hari-śauri: Yes. It only came when we were in Iran because of the altitude. Then, as soon as we left, it went away again. That doctor in New York, he said it was because when your blood pressure goes up, then it's difficult for the heart to pump. So then fluid forms in the leg because of the bad blood circulation. Prabhupāda: That was his diagnosis. Hari-śauri: Yes. So as soon as we came... Like in New Vrindaban, a little bit high, then again it changes over. But then, as soon as we left, then it stopped again. Prabhupāda: Then this Mahabaleswar will not be... Hari-śauri: No. If it's very high, the altitude will not be so good. As soon as we arrived in Iran, immediately the next day the swelling was there. I don't know how high this will be, but New Vrindaban is not so high. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes? (?) Hari-śauri: I think someone said about 1200 feet, not very much. But that may be because the atmosphere in the hills is a little rarified as well. Prabhupāda: I had vision of (indistinct)... More than going to the hill (indistinct). It is higher than sea level anyway... Therefore the northern portion of India is called upper. It is very higher than the sea level. It is called upper because it is much higher, very high from the ocean. But I was... Vṛndāvana is also that part of (indistinct). Only Bengal is not upper. Hari-śauri: Yes, it's low. Prabhupāda: It is near the sea, so... (end) *Room Conversation About Blitz News Clipping-*-August 21, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: What is London?(?) There is appreciation. And send all these newspaper clippings about us in Hyderabad, how they are receiving. Gargamuni: I had those printed up now. Hari-śauri: Even the chief minister. Prabhupāda: Even the chief minister. Gargamuni: He said praises ISKCON. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually Asnani's office is in the same building as Blitz. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Make a strong case immediately, without delay. Pradyumna: Get a friendly lawyer. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Go ahead. Next... Pradyumna: "In point, in Bombay, a huge plot was acquired in Juhu for rupees fourteen lakhs. They have put up a temple there with a barbed wire fence around it." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is the barbed wire? Pradyumna: They just put things to make it seem like we're... (laughing) What is the... Everyone is... Prabhupāda: Yes, the barbed wire is there. No Blitz editor can go there. (laughter) No rogues and Blitz editors allowed. (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I heard... Ācārya was telling me when he came from America first in the Hare Kṛṣṇa Land, that Blitz editor... Prabhupāda: You write this. The barbed wire is there to keep away the dogs and Blitz editor. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughing) Okay. Pradyumna: "Then point: At Vṛndāvana, the famed Kṛṣṇa spot, they are on a building spree. Already rupees twelve lakhs have been spent on an unfinished temple." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is bogus. Prabhupāda: Let them say(?) unfinished. When it was finished it was more than twenty lakhs...Fifty lakhs. And the temple was opened by the governor of U.P. Pradyumna: We have mentioned that. Gargamuni: And enclose his two letters. He wrote very nice letters. Very beautiful letters. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Gargamuni: He wishes us all success, and he begs for your blessings. He begs for your blessings. Prabhupāda: Yes, this letter should be... They should immediately be brought into court and charged the damage for fifty thousand dollars. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. *Pradyumna: And this is completely nonsense: "Their major concentration seems, however, to be in Orissa"*-we don't have anything in Orissa-"the land of princes and paupers. They have built a center close to our atomic energy commission complex." Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A hut center. Jayapatākā: Gaura Govinda, he has a few huts. "Major complex." Pradyumna: "Besides, they are planning to set up a Sanskrit university in Purī, the home of famed temples and one of the few spots in India blessed by Ādi Śaṅkara. Two devotees, Gurudāsa Swami and Abhirāma dāsa visited Bhuvaneśvara in April last to explore means to set up the university." Then in big heading, "Patnayak's interest in Kṛṣṇa cult." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is going to get us... Prabhupāda: That's nice. Pradyumna: "They reportedly met also our deputy defense minister, J. B. Patnayak, who hails from Orissa. It is understood that Patnayak has asked the district magistrate of Purī to find land for ISKCON's Sanskrit university there. ISKCON is pursuing not only Kṛṣṇa, it has started taking interest in politics also. It has founded a political party in the United States called "In God We Trust" Party. It has already contested civic elections in Los Angeles and intends to put up candidates for the U.S. Congress." We didn't do anything in Los Angeles. Only in Georgia. All wrong, complete... Prabhupāda: What is wrong there? In God We Trust, this party. Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are making it sound as if it is a political party. Hari-śauri: They say political with God's name. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're not saying God at all. They're saying God..., we're using God as a front. Prabhupāda: They may say. But we want to put forward a God's party also. Why not? Everyone is godless party. We must push forward a God's party. What is the wrong there? Hari-śauri: It's not political. Prabhupāda: Our whole movement is to educate this atheistic godless civilization to God consciousness. That is our movement. So if we set up a party, In God We Trust, what is the wrong there? Gargamuni: In the same newspaper they print naked women. So we have God conscious party to stop this. Prabhupāda: To stop illicit sex. Gargamuni: Yes. Prabhupāda: We are trying to elevate the demoralized human society to God consciousness. Pradyumna: Then, "John Erdman, a U.S. citizen who sails under the label of (sic:) Jayapak Swami and is in charge of the flourishing Māyāpura complex of the Society, recently had discussions with his chums to set up an In God We Trust Party in India also." Then, heading: "Bigger Than Defunct British Empire." "In a recent communication with Gargamuni Swami, alias Gregory M. Scharf, who looks after West Bengal, the chief from headquarters says, "Now we have become more than the British Empire" Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is your quote. Prabhupāda: And what is British Empire? British Empire could not occupy the whole world. We are occupying the whole world. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But what they've done is they opened a newsletter which Rāmeśvara Swami sent. And it must have been addressed to Gargamuni Swami. They must have stolen it from the postman by giving him two rupees. Prabhupāda: That's all right. We are trying to expand our empire, and it is already done all over the world. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Pradyumna: "Now we've become more than the British Empire. Even the British Empire was not as expansive as we are. They had only a portion of the world, and we have not completed expanding. We must expand more and more unlimitedly." *Prabhupāda: You also explain, that British Empire expanded by military strength. And we are expanding by Ratha*-yātrā. We are expanding our empire simply by Ratha-yātrā. Hari-śauri: East meets West. Pradyumna: Singing, dancing and chanting. Prabhupāda: Yes. We introduce three chariots in big, big cities, and conquered them. Hari-śauri: "Rival to Nelson's Column." Gargamuni: We are marching through the streets not with guns. *Prabhupāda: They admitted, "Rival to Nelson Column" in Guardian even. So who is strong enough? We are stronger than British Empire. Simply by Ratha*-yātrā we are conquering. And actually that is being done. What I have got strength? Forty rupees beginning. Simply Hare Kṛṣṇa and Ratha-yātrā, that's all. That's a fact. They can see, they have got eyes. Pradyumna: "The Indian government has been rather slow in picking up the ISKCON signals. One reason being that the genuine Kṛṣṇa devotees in the administration had been mighty pleased in the beginning with the idea of exporting Kṛṣṇa consciousness to America." Prabhupāda: Genuine? Hari-śauri: That means the genuine ones are here in India, and they were pleased with the idea of exporting Kṛṣṇa to America. So that means that the ones in America are not genuine. Prabhupāda: So "You are not genuine. Therefore we are not appreciating." Genuine they appreciate. "But you are not genuine. Therefore we are criticizing you." Pradyumna: "As far back as 1971 the Maharastra government had taken action against the foreign devotees who had chosen to overstay in Bombay and elsewhere." Gargamuni: That isn't true. Their action was to allow us to build our Bombay center. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's not true. Pradyumna: "In mid 1975 the Union Home Ministry took, however, a lenient view and allowed the immigrants to stay for long periods on the specious plea that the mastering of Vaiṣṇava literature, the spiritual diet of the cultists, was not like learning shorthand." Then heading: "Contrary Pulls in Government." "Lately, of course, the center has become wise, though contrary pulls in the thinking process still persist. This was quite evident at the Raj..." Prabhupāda: This article no sane man will take notice of it. No sane man will like. It is not very important article. Hari-śauri: Trouble is, we're in a land of insane people. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the largest circulating newspaper in India. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So bring him into court. But what will be your charges? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, slander, it was trying to slander our character, our whole movement. Gargamuni: Defamation of our religious cult. Because we're recognized by scholars as being bona fide. It says here, "Ungodly face of Kṛṣṇa cult." How is that ungodly? Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the charge. They are trying to minimize our... Gargamuni: We are godly. There are so many quotes from big scholars. Hari-śauri: Just at the end this article gets worse. Prabhupāda: Yes, that very heading is a defamation. Gargamuni: "We challenge you that you are ungodly. But we are godly because we follow the four principles." This man drinks, it shows a photo of him drinking. Prabhupāda: "Ungodly face of Kṛṣṇa cult." This is the charge. That very heading is a defamation. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And also the information that he has put to substantiate that is bogus. And we'll prove point by point how it is bogus. Prabhupāda: We should charge them "ungodly." "Ungodly face." This should be charged. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And also that these charges... Prabhupāda: Others are subordinate. This is the main charge. We are spreading Kṛṣṇa, God, and he's "ungodly face." Minimizing the value of the movement. Gargamuni: Defamation of character. Prabhupāda: So immediately you send letter to Asnani. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I will write him right now. Prabhupāda: That's all right, I will... No more Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Give it to me now. But Girirāja told me there was some... He doesn't want to hear anymore. Hari-śauri: Oh. You don't want to... There's only just a last little bit. Prabhupāda: What is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But now they have requoted what was in the paper about what you know already, that thing that came up in the Parliament. Prabhupāda: So you quote from all these quotations. Ananda Bazaar and others. You give quotations. They may make a fresh pages so when court case is there this should be presented. Gargamuni: Yes. Newspaper articles can stand as evidence because the Ananda Bazaar, they sent a whole team there, and the article they wrote was fantastic. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You have to give me all of them. Gargamuni: They're here on Prabhupāda's desk. Hari-śauri: No, Harikeśa has got them. Prabhupāda: So go and pick up and make arrangement immediately show them. One thing, that we have got this śālagrāma-śilā. So if you like to personally worship, we can keep it. Otherwise I am sending to Bombay. Do you like to worship? Pradyumna: We can take with us? Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is good to take with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: We can make small thing like you used to have, small Deities? We can do that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Make a small box. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here there are carpenters. We can get it made before you leave. Prabhupāda: So we can carry and every morning just put in a siṁhāsana and tulasī and water and flower and little fruit. That's all. He has got tendency to worship. Gargamuni: He is brāhmaṇa. Paṇḍita. Prabhupāda: Paṇḍitjī. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He and Nitāi are both considered the paṇḍitjīs. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are paṇḍita. Gargamuni: He is training his son also. Prabhupāda: Yes, his son will be great paṇḍita. Both of them are devotees, husband and wife. Therefore nice son is born. Yathā bījaṁ yathā yoni. Yathā bījaṁ yathā yoni. Yoni is the mother. Bījam is the father. Yathā bījaṁ yathā yoni. So I'll not send it to Bombay. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Okay. Good. It's better to... Prabhupāda: My father used to carry śālagrāma-śilā if he was going out in the... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In the neck? Prabhupāda: His Guru Mahārāja advised him. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's auspicious. *Prabhupāda: No, it is the safest place. In a linen handkerchief, bound up. Yes. So it is safe always, kaṇṭha. My father used to carry. Wherever he would stay, gaṅga*-jala, tulasī, decoration. Say, half an hour business. My father was a great devotee. Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You dedicated the Kṛṣṇa book to him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he was a pure Vaiṣṇava. And he wanted me to become like this. He was praying Rādhārāṇī. He was praying to Rādhārāṇī. And any saintly person would come, he would simply say, "Give blessings to my son that he may become a Rādhārāṇī's servant." That was my father's prayer. He never prayed that "My son may become very rich man." He never prayed like that. Actually, his ardent desire that his son may become a Vaiṣṇava. And my Guru Mahārāja's training has put me this position. That I have admitted. Later on. What is that word I have given? Hmm? Find out. Gargamuni: "The eternal father?" Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "Which was later on solidified..." Prabhupāda: Ahh! Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "...by my eternal father." Prabhupāda: "The ideas given by my father were solidified by..." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what you said. Prabhupāda: Read it. *Gargamuni: "To my father, Gour Mohan De, 1849-1930, pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, who raised me as a Kṛṣṇa conscious child from the beginning of my life. In my boyhood ages he instructed me how to play the mṛdaṅga. He gave me Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa vigraha to worship and he gave me Jagannātha Ratha to duly observe the festival as my childhood play. He was kind to me, and I imbibed from him the ideas later on solidified by my spiritual master, the eternal father." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very beautifully written. Gargamuni: Yes, very poetic. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. I got good father and good spiritual master. That's all. Gargamuni: We have gotten bad father, but now we have spiritual father. Prabhupāda: No bad father. Unless good father, son cannot be good. Yathā yoni yathā bījam. Hari-śauri: They must be just fallen. Gargamuni: They have not accepted your mercy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll all benefit by the son's devotional service. It doesn't matter how fallen they are, you know. Prabhupāda: My father never chastised me. Hari-śauri: I think you said your mother was always very strict. Prabhupāda: Because he was very lenient. So mother had to be little strict for my education. So prepare a case for these rascals. We have got strong case. And charge, "Why you have made 'ungodly'? Prove it. What do you know about godly?" Charge them. So there will be discussion, long discussion, what is godly and what is not godly. Put them in the corner. "What do you know, rascal, about godly tradition? You have charged us, 'ungodly.' " Gargamuni: He's a drunkard, that man. That editor, he drinks. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a Parsee. Prabhupāda: Charge in the court, "What do you know about godly that you have charge us ungodly." Then it will be exposed. Do, immediately do. Immediately plan to bring in the court. Hari-śauri: Actually, in the same newspaper they were doing a whole thing about Sai Baba. They had a big article about Sai Baba. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're supporting him. Hari-śauri: Supporting him. Prabhupāda: Which newspaper, this? Hari-śauri: Yes, this paper. Prabhupāda: Just see. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sai Baba has a very big political following, including the chief minister of Bombay also. Gargamuni: Home Ministers, Home Ministers wear his ring, Sai Baba ring. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So I think they're doing it just... *Prabhupāda: We don't touch about Sai Baba. We charge him, "What do you know about godly?" Don't bring any other men. Don't try to become that "All are useless, we are important." No. But whatever they are there. But they have directed "ungodly." "What do you know about godly, that you have said as ungodly?" Let him explain. And we are background Bhagavad*-gītā, approved. So why you are taking my pad? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, I'm sorry. Prabhupāda: This is the, our member. Pencil and pad. Either he'll leave his own pencil or take my pencil. (laughter) That I am observing. All right. Go. So you'll take charge of this? Pradyumna: Yes, I will come get it later. I'll get some silk. Prabhupāda: And purchase one siṁhāsana, small. You know small siṁhāsana. Pradyumna: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And some fine cloth. And you can decorate with this gopī*-candana. That's all. And make a small linen dhoti and cādara, and flower and tulasī. That's all. And you have got that pot water, pañca-pātra. Bas. That's all. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam. We have got the picture of Advaita Prabhu offering. The same thing here. Where is that picture? *Pradyumna: That is in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Must be Ādi-līlā. Hari-śauri: Where did He come from, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Pradyumna: Sampat Bhaṭṭācārya. Hari-śauri: Oh, the South Indian paṇḍita. Prabhupāda: They are pleased with us. Otherwise, he would not have given. Pradyumna: Their culture is dying in India. No one wants paṇḍitas anymore. But we are the only ones who are encouraging. Prabhupāda: You must encourage. Pradyumna: Other, all young men... Paṇḍitas... That book isn't here. Prabhupāda: *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*? *Pradyumna: Oh, maybe. No. It must be in Ādi*-līlā, first volume. *Prabhupāda: Ādi*-līlā is not here. Pradyumna: They took first volume. They don't have all the books here. Prabhupāda: No. They should be charged, "Why you have said 'ungodly face'? What do you know about God?" Pradyumna: The courts can take it up also. In Allahabad when they were doing about the Congress Party having the cow, they said this is of the nature... They were discussing what is God in the court to make a decision. Something, what is God, what is religion. We can bring it up in the court. That will make a case celebre. Case celebre, they call it, affaire celebre. Prabhupāda: Yes. This case must be brought. Challenge them, "What do you know about God?" Explain. And we can prove God consciousness from every page of our books. That will be very interesting case. And we shall continue this unless this man is sufficiently fined. Hari-śauri: This is a... That bit about... Some of it, there's the front page also. Thought you might like to read. Prabhupāda: "Evidence of fraud"? No? Hari-śauri: That's Sai Baba. Pradyumna: One man is trying to prove Sai Baba is fraud. One professor. Hari-śauri: He's a scientist. He says he can prove that Sai Baba's making things appear and disappear is just a trick. Prabhupāda: He is a fraud. What is this paper? Hari-śauri: This is the same issue. *Pradyumna: But there's something very interesting. When he manifests something, he gives evidence, he says, "This cannot be a creation, because to be a creation, to be God you must be creator. To be creator you must produce something which is uniquely not made by anyone else." So he said he's only making things that are already created by someone else*-a watch. So he is... Hari-śauri: He's producing a watch, then it's a watch that's made by some manufacturer. It's not made by Sai Baba. Like that. So there was a comment that even if he has some... He may have some supernatural power, but he's not God. Pradyumna: He has some yogic siddhi, but he cannot be God because he does not create. Prabhupāda: So this paper is against Sai Baba also? Pradyumna: No. On the front page it says... Because he is doing a lot of educational... He has made all these universities and health centers and everything. So it says that he is doing good to the people. So for that reason they said, "We don't want to see him criticized." Hari-śauri: They're supporting him. Prabhupāda: So the case is already in the court? Pradyumna: No, it is just a challenge. The Bangalore University, some people at Bangalore University want to investigate his things. And then Sai Baba sometimes, he won't submit to be examined. Prabhupāda: He submits? Pradyumna: They want to have him come and examine him, that, "Do it and let us see." But he won't admit to be examined. Prabhupāda: That is his... Hari-śauri: Some U.S. men, though, they gave a report that whilst they were talking to him he made different things appear and disappear. They wanted to examine him, and he wouldn't allow it. But during the course of the conversation he made several things appear and disappear. Like he produced this type of nut that comes from Nepal. It just appeared in his hand. And then he closed his hands and opened them up again and the nut, the same nut was there. But this time with some gold, a gold cross hanging from it. Pradyumna: A Rudrākṣa. Some rare kind of Rudrākṣa. Then made it appear again with all gold, and then he gave it to the man. Hari-śauri: And then he produced gold ring and stuff like this. Prabhupāda: This is magic. Hari-śauri: Still, even if he can do those things, it's only mystic siddhi. That doesn't mean to say he's God or an avatāra or anything. But these people are so foolish they think anybody with a little magic, he must be avatāra. Pradyumna: They worship him as God. "Bhagavan Sai Baba." Prabhupāda: Anyway, we must bring this man charges. "Ungodly face." *Hari-śauri: Just like it says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, they think religion is irreligion... Prabhupāda: "Ungodly face," what is that? Pradyumna: "The ungodly face of Kṛṣṇa cult." Prabhupāda: What is that ungodly face? Hari-śauri: They're trying to make out we're political. Pradyumna: That we... He said he has "Now unmasked the ungodly face of Kṛṣṇa cult." That we're putting on a false face of being devotees of Kṛṣṇa, but actually we have an ungodly purpose. That we want to... Prabhupāda: What ungodly we have done? Pradyumna: That he does not come out and say, but he implies that we are foreign, that we want to exploit India somehow. Prabhupāda: Anyway, they are feeling the weight. Now they are feeling the weight. That is the progress. Otherwise, if our movement would have been a trifle thing, the government and newspapers they would not have taken care. Now they are feeling that this movement is going to be more and more important, all over the world. Hari-śauri: They can see we're having an effect. Pradyumna: The more we go with these traveling parties also, from town to town. Hari-śauri: Most of the general population, they're already convinced. *Prabhupāda: First thing is that when you take śālagrāma*-sevā, wherever you stay, this worship must go on daily. *Pradyumna: Yes, nitya*-pūjā, nitya-sevā. Prabhupāda: Yes. That you cannot... One day, if you are sick, your wife will do that. But that half an hour pūjā must continue. That you must decide. Pradyumna: Yes. Yes. I saw those brāhmaṇas in Udupi, they will never fail to do it under any condition. They have little box with śālagrāma, little śaṅkha, little thing, little tulasī leaf they get. They will do that every day daily. They cannot... Prabhupāda: So both of you are initiated. In case you are little sick, your wife will do. In that platform you have to do it. Sevā shall not be stopped. Gradually as your son grows, he will also do it. So you can purchase one little siṁhāsana. That is available in any utensil shop. All right. Pradyumna: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 21, 1976, Hyderabad Jayapatākā: I was with him when he posted the letter. Prabhupāda: But where is that... Jayapatākā: I'll ask him when I see him. Prabhupāda: You have got any copy? No. Jayapatākā: I didn't keep a copy. Prabhupāda: When they submit? Quarterly? Jayapatākā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Part of the money is contribution for construction of my house. Ten thousand. Ten thousand dollars? Jayapatākā: Ten thousand dollars I think. Jayatīrtha mentioned. Prabhupāda: I'm writing one letter to the governor that I work hard, I print my books and they are selling, and if I bring the money to construct temple, why people are envious? What is the wrong there? Rather, I should be encouraged that I am bringing so much money in India, foreign exchange, by my hard labor. So why they are envious? Why... I have sent this to the governor. Jayapatākā: To the governor? Prabhupāda: Governor, Mr. Chandra Reddy. "Why, wherefrom they are getting money, where, why?" That is my very, very hard labor, that's all. Is it wrong if a man works hard and gets money in foreign country and bring in India? Gargamuni: I think they cannot believe that a sādhu could have so much money from selling books. *Prabhupāda: That may be beyond their dream, but I am not so*-called sādhu. I am trying to execute the orders of my Guru Mahārāja, predecessor. I am not a so-called sādhu, taking a saffron robe, begging for fulfilling the belly. Gargamuni: They have to accept you as an international leader. Prabhupāda: I must be international leader. Yes, they are surprised how... This is unique in the history, that a single person's books are sold in so many large quantities. I don't think any author has sold so many books. Huh? *Gargamuni: In some of the American magazines they publish a best*-seller list of books, and the number of books we sell goes beyond the best-seller list. Prabhupāda: And especially philosophical and religious books. These people do not touch. (laughs) Untouchable. Has even Vivekananda has presented so many books? A small book, "Thus spake..." And what he will write? What does he know? Simply bluffers. Chaliots.(?) Our Bon Mahārāja is also one of the chaliots. What is the English for chaliot? Jayapatākā: Bluffers? Prabhupāda: It means he has no assets but he shows that he is very big. That is called chaliot. Jayapatākā: Bluffer. Prabhupāda: Bluffer? Our Tīrtha Mahārāja's Caitanya Research Institute. Here is an Indian Institute for... What is that? Bon Mahārāja's? Institute for Indian Culture and Philosophy. But where is your book? You have seen that Tīrtha Mahārāja's one book? The Vedānta as Caitanya Has Seen, like that. And he has given a picture of himself with effulgence on his head. You have seen that? Gargamuni: No, I have not seen that one. In all the mandiras where his picture is there, they have all the ācāryas' pictures, but only his picture has the effulgence. Prabhupāda: Such a rascal. He has given Prabhupāda's picture, no effulgence. His picture, effulgence. He's such a rascal. Publicly he's showing. Jayapatākā: But unfortunately that had to be painted in. He could not just show... Gargamuni: There's no natural... Prabhupāda: Could not illuminate. Remain in darkness. Effulgence in darkness. And such a shameless man. He is giving effulgence in the picture. [break] Gargamuni: ...see that this society is replacing the Ramakrishna Mission there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gargamuni: We can see practically that this society, your society, is replacing this Ramakrishna Mission more and more. Prabhupāda: Why Ramakrishna Mission? We are far above the Ramakrishna Mission. Gargamuni: Yes. As far as the people go. They are all saying Hare Kṛṣṇa and... They don't even mention... Sometimes they ask us, "Do you know who Ramakrishna is?" And we say, "No, we have never heard of him." They go, "You have not heard of Ramakrishna?" We say, "No. We only know Prabhupāda and Lord Caitanya. Everybody knows that, and nobody knows who is Ramakrishna." Jayapatākā: They do not know what to say. *Gargamuni: Then they don't know what to say. They say, "You mean you don't know that Chicago Address?" We say, "No. What? Oh, when Prabhupāda went for Ratha*-yātrā? Yes, that we know." Prabhupāda: That Chicago Address was the worst. He is defying, "Why you give credit to God?" This is the... We have seen that Chicago Address. Now they are eliminating. Most blasphemous. One Christian priest, he was surprised, "What kind of nonsense these Indians are..." He asked him, "How you are speaking in this way, 'Why you are giving credit to God?' " He said like that, "You are working, why you are giving credit to God?" This is Vivekananda's realization. And he created God, a illiterate priest, he become God. Because he said, "I am God." That is the proof. Jayapatākā: Because he said? *Prabhupāda: "I am God. I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." Therefore his name is Ramakrishna. He was Gadadhar Chatterji, and he said to his disciple, Vivekananda, first*-class rogue, that, "I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." So he took it. This is evidence. Because Kṛṣṇa says "I am the Supreme." So he said, "I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." This is the evidence. If Kṛṣṇa can say, he can say also. This institution is the most harmful institution for Vedic culture. *Jayapatākā: At one town, Beturhari, that, it is called Nakashiparathana. That's about thirty miles north of Māyāpura. One day in advance they advertised that we were coming and we were having a public showing of the cinema and Nitāi*-Gaura ārati. And they had one maidan called Library Maidan. There was one, like, one stage there. Prabhupāda: It is in West Bengal? Jayapatākā: West Bengal. That's in Nadia district. Just before Pulasi, south of Pulasi. And when we came there and I saw the police in the afternoon, we told them we were going to have a function. So they said that they would send a few policemen. They said that "We will send some policemen for keeping the order." But that night so many people came the space could only hold four thousand. But another two, three thousand people came, and they were turned away because of insufficient space. So they were standing on the wall and on the rooftops all around, and all you could see were people's heads, just like an ocean. The policemen, after it was over... When I chanted, I chanted, "Everyone please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And I chanted the full mantra three times. They chanted so loud that even two, three blocks away people thought that the heavens were shouting. It was like a thunder... Prabhupāda: Thunderbolt. *Jayapatākā: Thunderbolt. And the policemen said that never-even the chief minister came here once*-not even half so many people came, and that was announced for one week. This was announced for one day and more people came than ever before. He said, "This really shows me that the people are hungry for spiritual answer. They have no one to lead them." Gargamuni: And these leaders are simply envious, that's all. The only reason why they're not helping us is because they're envious. Because so many people are interested and no one is interested in them. Prabhupāda: Anyway, our Gītār Gān is selling. *Jayapatākā: Yes. When we stopped at Burdwan, in one place, one boy sold 198 Bhagavad*-gītās, Gītār Gān, without moving. So many Gītās... People were just crowding around taking Gītās so much that the local... There were some bookstores. They also came and they said that "We cannot get wholesale? We have never seen such a book sell so well." Gargamuni: Even people come to the temple in Calcutta, they want ten, fifteen copies. Village people. Poor people. They come and say, "Gītār Gān, where is that? I have heard." And they take ten or fifteen copies, they wrap it in their cloth and bring it to the village. It is becoming very popular. Wherever you go, "Where is this Gītār Gān?" Jayapatākā: I went to Writer's Building, I had four or five copies with me. I didn't go for selling. I went to see ministers. But all the peons, they were buying the Gītār Gāns from me. I sold out. People were coming up with rupees saying, "Gītār Gān." I didn't have any more. Prabhupāda: Out of their own accord they... Gargamuni: No, they've heard of it. It's becoming famous. Jayapatākā: That's our inspiration, that if we can make Gītār Gān and Your Divine Grace famous all over Bengal, then we will feel that our mission... Prabhupāda: Yes, I could not write any... I wrote some Bengali book, that is now... It can be collected from Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha. I continually wrote one book, Bhagavāner Kathā. Jayapatākā: People are begging us for books in Bengali written by Your Divine Grace. We tell them that... There's no time. Prabhupāda: That Subhaga translated. But his translations are not so... Gargamuni: No. There's always trouble with translation in local languages, Hindi or Gujarati. Prabhupāda: They do not know the philosophy. Gargamuni: No. And they do the wrong words. *Jayapatākā: Now they have a... I put a two*-man team. A two- or three-man team. Subhaga, there's one boy Kiśora, and Tatpur. Between the three of them they check and recheck. Prabhupāda: Tatpur is educated? Jayapatākā: He's got a B.A. or something. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Jayapatākā: He doesn't write himself. He writes in old fashion. But he corrects for double*-checking philosophy. Editing. And this Kiśora, he was a M.A. and he previously used to write. He was an honor student at Calcutta University, and he used to freelance write in Bengali. So his style is very nice. Prabhupāda: Why not engage him in simply... Jayapatākā: He is translating now our... Gargamuni: That's all he does. Jayapatākā: That and he greets the guests. He's also good at membership. Prabhupāda: Gītār Gān has become popular. Gargamuni: Yes. That name has become very popular. Everyone is asking, "Where is this Gītār Gān?" Prabhupāda: So you can register the name so that others may not... Jayapatākā: Yes, otherwise they'll cash in on it. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can register it the name. Patron registration. Copyright registration. Gargamuni: It says it in the book. Jayapatākā: It says, but you should make sure it's registered. Gargamuni: Gopāla, he printed it. I don't know if he had it registered. It says in the book, "All Rights Reserved." Prabhupāda: That is your statement. But it must be legally protected. Jayapatākā: They may check up and find out not so and then do it. That Bhagavāner Kathā was printed in what book? Do you know? *Prabhupāda: They have got a paper*-Gauḍīya. *Gargamuni: These books that Gaura*-Govinda, he wants to get printed. How do we know what is being said? I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the... One Orrian gentleman will come and get him to read this book. Then I can understand where he stands. Gargamuni: Because he has... The Topmost Yoga is ready, but I didn't want to print that yet until... Prabhupāda: Never mind. I'll... After hearing this book I'll let him know. Jayapatākā: After they write everything, then I also read it in Bengali. I can... And if I see something that seems a little impersonal or something, I say that... Prabhupāda: Correct it. Jayapatākā: Yes, correct it. That much I can do. Prabhupāda: Impersonal idea is in everyone's head. "God has no legs, no head. Simply he has got head." Jayapatākā: I can also write to the... Previously in 1971-72 at the pandals you used to speak in Bengali some days. I'll write for those tapes. We can... Gargamuni: Oh, those tapes. I asked for those tapes so long ago. If we can get those Hindi and Bengali tapes we could have them transcribed, and they can make very good essays. Jayapatākā: All the big English Back to Godhead articles are actually your lectures simply transcribed. So we could transcribe those tapes and we could have originally your words. Gargamuni: Yes. There were ten days when Prabhupāda spoke in Bengali. Jayapatākā: Twice. Once in Deshapriya Park and once at Maidan. Even today people talk about both festivals. Prabhupāda: Bhagavāner Kathā. Jayapatākā: Bhagavāner Kathā. Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha. Paper of Gauḍīya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gauḍīya it was published continuous. Jayapatākā: What years we should look? More or less. Prabhupāda: 1950 or little before that. They have got their old Gauḍīyas. Jayapatākā: They must have. Prabhupāda: They were so popular, the report was that the readers of Gauḍīya were only hankering after that Bhagavāner Kathā, and after reading that they will throw away. Other articles, they were not interested. Jayapatākā: So always your writing, people were attracted by. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. Even my teachers were attracted in school days. Jayapatākā: Recently that..., some professor said that you are the veritable incarnation of Vyāsadeva for Lord Caitanya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Some have said like that. In my matriculation class I wrote some essay and I got out of 100, 85 marks. But the teacher came to the class, "Who has written this?" So I stood up, and he thanked me, "Yes, it is very nice." He especially came to thank me for that essay. Gargamuni: At least from the human standpoint, it is not humanly possible to have so many books in such a short time. There is no other author, at least that we know. Jayapatākā: I showed your "As Brilliant as the Sun" to Tarun Kanti Gosh and one other minister, and when they saw that, then after, for ten minutes, all they could say was how Prabhupāda, how he is empowered by Lord Gaurāṅga. Prabhupāda: They said like that. Jayapatākā: Yes. That's a good movie because it simply shows how you are doing so many books. Gargamuni: We also showed that to that Atul Krishna Goswami. He came to Māyāpura. When he saw that he was so..., that movie, they had never seen such a thing, the process of printing the books. Prabhupāda: He has good idea about... Gargamuni: Oh, yes. *Jayapatākā: He has translated Caitanya*-caritāmṛta in Hindi, they say. Prabhupāda: He presented me one. Jayapatākā: Many people ask that if the Gītār Gān could be put in Hindi. Gargamuni: This *Gītā* Press, they have these little books selling for one rupee, and they've sold lakhs. If we can put Gītār Gān into many languages, it will be bigger than this *Gītā* Press. Prabhupāda: So you can... It is poetry. Jayapatākā: That's the difference, that Prabhupāda put it in poetry. Who has got that inspiration? Prabhupāda: It is gān, gītā, song. One can chant it singing. Jayapatākā: Some people say, "We want the *Gītā*. This is only gān." But then we have to say, "No, this has got the full *Gītā*. Everything is there. Every śloka is in here. Only put in gān form. But it is actual *Gītā*." Other people say, "I have so many Gītās." We say, "No, no, you can chant this with your harmonium or by khol and karatāla you can sing." So many ways the people are taking it. Prabhupāda: Yes, they can sing very nicely. Jayapatākā: When we can hear over the loudspeakers Gītār Gān being sung, then we will feel very happy. When the public will start singing publicly Gītār Gān... Prabhupāda: Public singing? Jayapatākā: When the public began to recite Gītār Gān at their functions, like they're doing this Tulasīdāsa *Rāmāyaṇa*, if they start that in Bengal, Gītār Gān, then it will be a big success. Prabhupāda: Tulasīdāsa. Tulasīdāsa *Rāmāyaṇa* is very popular. Because the Hindis, they have no literature. There is no literature. Jayapatākā: If some Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava could rewrite that according to siddhānta, then it would be very good. Prabhupāda: Which one? Jayapatākā: His *Rāmāyaṇa* has got many philosophical errors in it. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jayapatākā: If a Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava could write that properly... *Prabhupāda: Why? Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava has immense literature. Why they should bother with Tulasīdāsa? By reading Tulasīdāsa's Rāma*-carita-mānasa in my experience I've not seen a single man has come to the spiritual platform. I have not seen a single man. Gargamuni: That is not transcendental literature. Because by reading these books you come to transcendental realization. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is wanted. They want āśīrvāda. Just like so many people come, āśīrvāda. "You are a saintly person, you give me āśīrvāda so my material happiness may increase. I am not interested with the spiritual knowledge. Give me blessing so that for nothing I get, upgrade my material opulence." This is their... So those Tulasīdāsa readers, they are like that. They want material opulence. Ārto*-arthārthī, arthārthī, want some material benefit. They chant Tulasīdāsa's Rāma-carita-mānasa for some material benefit. They're not interested in the spiritual advancement. Nobody. That Delhi temple where they have paṇḍita? I'm forgetting his name. Jayapatākā: One paṇḍita in Delhi? That one āśrama is there. The one whom you stayed with that time? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇadāsa? Jayapatākā: I just met him once. Tejas brought him. He's got some āśrama. Some ācārya or something. Ācārya something. Prabhupāda: Oh, that Prabhākāra. Jayapatākā: Ācārya Prabhākāra? Prabhupāda: No. Prabhākāra is different. Prabhākāra was first initiated by me. Jayapatākā: Your first disciple. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari*-nāma-mantra he was given. Gargamuni: What year was that? Prabhupāda: 1954 I think. He did some service. In Jhansi... Gargamuni: You had that League. I saw photos of that. That League of Devotees. Prabhupāda: Hmm. A very nice building. Gargamuni: That was nice. Prabhupāda: Very nice building. Gargamuni: With front wall and you had painted "League of Devotees." Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen. Gargamuni: I have seen the photo. Big place. Jayapatākā: That is still existing? Prabhupāda: Very big place. That you have seen this Keśavajī Gauḍīya Maṭha in Mathurā? No. There is Caitanya Mahāprabhu Deity. That Deity was there. When I closed that I brought that big, big sannyāsī and delivered them, they will show. Jayapatākā: One man cheated you there? Some land? No. Prabhupāda: The building belonged to a big zamindar. So Prabhākāra arranged. So it was to be given to me, and I wanted to start the League of Devotees from there. So I spent some money, whatever money I had, and it was going on. But in the meantime, this Lilavati Munshi, Mrs. At that time she was wife of the governor. Her husband, K. M. Munshi. She had some organization of foreign women. So somehow or other she got imagination that "This house is very nice." She was governor's wife. So it was not given to me rightly, but I was using. So she wanted that house. Through collector and through all government officials pressure. She wrote me later on, that "Bhaktivedantajī, you wanted to organize, but you could not. But I have got this institution. Why not give it to me?" So, of course, there were many lawyer friends. They advised me that "You do not give up. You should litigate." So I thought, "Who is going to litigate? Let me go to Vṛndāvana." So I left. So at Mathurā I delivered the Deity to this Keśavajī Gauḍīya Maṭha, and I made my place in Vṛndāvana. Gargamuni: You had such a hard struggle in the beginning. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gargamuni: Because that place, I saw in the photo, everything was there. Nice big sign. Prabhupāda: It was a very good place. This Prabhākāra helped me. Ninety percent was... But if I did not leave, nobody could drive me, that was a fact. But I thought "Who is going to..., for litigation? She is the governor's wife, and she is pressing through collectors, through..." The manager who was in charge, he had some cinema house. So they had to renew the license, cinema house. And the collector pressed him that "Unless you arrange for this house, we are not going to renew your license." I thought, "Unnecessarily this man will be in trouble. I'll have to pay so many rupees, and she is governor's wife." And that lady came to me in Bombay several times. "You take my press. You have got so many publications." So I said "I can take your press. I have got money. But what shall I do with it? It is letter press. Now printing is done by offset." That press, Associated Press, is very good press. It was... They got so many government contracts. The whole telephone guides were printed there. But because it is letterset press, it is costly. The government got offset press, cheaper price. So that contract was cancelled. So for her nefarious activity she is punished. Her husband died. She has no more importance, and she was one of the trustees of Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. So she was exempted. Now she's an ordinary woman. Press is not working. Gargamuni: All they have is that Bhavan's Journal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Nobody reads that. Jayapatākā: You say she was kicked out from the trusteeship. She's not part of that any more. Prabhupāda: Yes. The other trustees said that "You are simply spending. What you are doing?" After all, when she was wife of the governor she had some prestige. Otherwise... She invited me in that Juhu, she has got a house in Juhu. So I told her, "Yes, I can purchase your press. Fifty lakhs is not a very big amount for me, but what shall I do? We are printing offset." That is the cause... Because nowadays printing is done by offset press, she lost all business. People got big, big contract, they got cheaper and better quality. Why they should stick to that press? And government contract was taken from them, big, huge business they lost. Tata Press, they have got offset. Government transferred there. And that was her main support. It was a nice, good press. Practically best press in Bombay, Associated Press. But because it is letter press... Now to maintain the letter press is very costly. Gargamuni: Yes. You have to get new type every year, and that is very costly. Prabhupāda: Nowadays there is no need of letters, I mean to say... Jayapatākā: Type. Prabhupāda: Type. [break] Gargamuni: ...on all the equipment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: That is not so much for the amount of books that they have been able to produce in such a short time. Prabhupāda: We can produce one book daily, the machines are so expert. Jayapatākā: They do outside work as well? Gargamuni: What for? We have unlimited... Prabhupāda: Why? Botheration. You have to satisfy your customer, waste time. We keep our machine for our own work. Gargamuni: We have so many books. As soon as we print a new book, the previous book is out of print. We have to print again. Prabhupāda: The first machine introduced by you, yes. Gargamuni: Oh, the mimeograph. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Then other machines came. I did not know, but I was thinking that if some typist would hear my tapes and type, I was thinking like that. Expert typist. Formerly, it was being done like that. Here, tape recorder. You hear something and then type. Like that. And this machine, you shall, it is, automatically, you hear and type, hear and type. Jayapatākā: This is made for that. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the advancement on that idea, dictaphone. Telephone. And the dictation of the author. He's hearing and typing. Nowadays everyone is using. The doctors dictate prescription. The doctor, instead of sending note, he dictates for such and such patient, "He should receive this, take like that..." That is recorded. Another, another, and immediately taken and the compounder hears and... No writing. Jayapatākā: Actually you are dictating the prescription for the whole world. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra*-mano-'bhirāmāt. And prescription is so sweet it pleases the ear and the heart. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt. It is medicine for this material disease. At the same time it is so pleasing to the ear and the heart. This is the very word. Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra. Śrotra means aural. Śrotra-manaḥ, and mind. Mano 'bhirāmāt. Abhirāma, pleasing. Jayapatākā: After rainy season you'll be coming to Māyāpura then? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: We'll write when the weather improves. We'll write when the rains cease. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 22, 1976, Hyderabad Devotee: Everywhere we go, the professors are very enthusiastic about the publications, and they say "We will take immediately all the books." Prabhupāda: Many Indians. How many orders you booked? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A whole page on us. Prabhupāda: Sunday? What is the Mahāṁśa: Sunday Chronicle. Deccan Chronicle. The biggest distributed English paper in this area. *Prabhupāda: What is this, Ratha*-yātrā? Hari-śauri: In New York. *Gargamuni: The Ratha*-yātrā conquering. *Prabhupāda: I told you Ratha*-yātrā, it is... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Conquer the world. Prabhupāda: ...the eyesore of the Communist party. *Hari-śauri: It says underneath, "Ratha*-yātrā in foreign lands." That's the caption underneath the picture. Prabhupāda: Where is it? *Gargamuni: Ratha*-yātrā in foreign lands. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa swamis. Read it. Read it. *Maṇihāra: "Hare Kṛṣṇa swamis. Man has unraveled many mysteries in his progress from barbarianism to civilization in his relentless pursuit of knowledge and his bid to add to his storehouse of information about the myriad mysteries of the universe. He has outstepped the boundaries of the earth and turned his attention to outer space, and at present he is trying to determine whether life exists on Mars. But even though he has climbed a long way up the ladder of knowledge, the great mystery of all baffles him still*-the mystery of God. Who is God? What is the relationship between man and God? Why should man try to realize God? These are some of the questions which have been engaging the attention of all thinking men from time immemorial. The search for God has been going on down the ages because the Supreme Being is God, and to know Him is to know the truth of all things, in all forms in time as well as in space. The destiny of man is unity with God, for man is essentially inseparable from God. It is this knowledge which helps man to attain the state of eternal satisfaction or mokṣa. But for self-knowledge, mokṣa would be impossible. And self-knowledge would be impossible of attainment but for those divine messengers who throw light on the path of our lives. Whenever true knowledge, spiritual knowledge, begins to vanish from the face of the earth and tends to lapse into oblivion, the divine messengers revive that knowledge and nourish it with the vitality of their own experience. These divine messengers seek to awaken man to the knowledge of his real heritage. One such divine messenger is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda..." Prabhupāda: He has made the ground. (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's really like an essay. Gargamuni: We should send this to Blitz, this article. Because they have said "ungodly," and he is saying "divine messenger." Prabhupāda: Yes. You please send this. Get some copies and send this rascal editor Karanji. He is known to you? He is a Parsee? Mahāṁśa: No, I don't know him. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Go on. Maṇihāra: ISKCON, which is a worldwide nonsectarian movement dedicated to propagating the message of the *Vedas* for the benefit of mankind. The society was founded in 1966 by Swami Prabhupāda, who had come to the United States a year earlier on the order of his spiritual master to teach Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Western world. Over the years ISKCON has steadily grown in popularity and influence, and today it is widely recognized by theologians, scholars and laymen as a genuine and important spiritual movement." Prabhupāda: This is "theologians, scholars," and they, he said... Just see. Go on. *Maṇihāra: "At present there are 108 ISKCON centers in 30 countries throughout the world. These centers enable full*-time members to live in close association, following the principles of Vedic life, and also provide a place where interested visitors can learn about the philosophy and culture of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and participate in its various functions. The basis of the movement is the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra-Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. The chanting of this mantra is the most recommended means for spiritual progress in this age, as it cleanses the mind and enables one to transcend the temporary designations of race, religion, and nationality and to understand one's true identity as an eternal spiritual being. In other words, simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa one can directly experience self-realization and lead a blissful life. The devotees experience divine ecstasy in singing the holy names of God to the accompaniment of musical instruments. The Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, as a prerequisite for the serious pursuit of spiritual life, voluntarily abstain from meat-eating, illicit sex, intoxication, and gambling. The Kṛṣṇa conscious life style is based on the principles of simple living and high thinking. The devotees rise very early, about 3:30 a.m., and spend the morning hours in meditation and study. During the day, the main activity is preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Many devotees go out to public places to distribute the Society's books and its official journal, Back to Godhead magazine, which has a monthly circulation more than a million copies in fourteen different languages. In addition to book distribution, devotees engage in a variety of activities, including teaching, artistic pursuits and farming. The qualification in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not what kind of work one performs, but that it be done in the spirit of devotion to God. For the first time, Swami Prabhupāda has introduced Ratha-yātrā of Lord Jagannātha of Purī in the Western world. This festival is now being conducted in the major cities of the world like San Francisco, Philadelphia, Chicago, New York, London, Paris, etc. Millions of people relish the taste of pulling the transcendental ratha and partake of Kṛṣṇa prasāda. Another of ISKCON's projects is New Vrindaban, a model thousand-acre Kṛṣṇa conscious community farm in the hills of West Virginia. This is ISKCON's first venture in protecting cows from going to the slaughterhouses." Prabhupāda: Take care of the cows, and? Maṇihāra: It says, "This is ISKCON's first venture in protecting cows from going to slaughterhouses. Over four hundred cows give twelve hundred litres of milk daily, providing natural, healthy products like butter, ghee, etc. And especially milk sweets like gulabjamon, rasagullā, etc." Prabhupāda: What is that? Pradyumna: Just the names of those... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Enclose this quote. *Maṇihāra: "ISKCON has generated many community farms like New Vrindaban, providing the ideal atmosphere of a busy, yet peaceful village, fully devoted to spiritual progress. Swami Prabhupāda has also established the first Kṛṣṇa conscious gurukula in the West, a primary school in Dallas, Texas, for one hundred boys and girls between the ages of five and fifteen. Soon after its success, many such gurukulas have sprung up all over the world. Aside from teaching reading, writing, mathematics, geography, etc., the gurukula teaches the child how to cultivate God consciousness. Once a year members of ISKCON journey to the Society's international headquarters at Śrīdhāma Māyāpura, ninety miles north of Calcutta, and the birthplace of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. It is the site of a ten crore rupees international Vedic village comprised of community farming projects, high*-class gurukula school, free medicinal facilities, and handloom weaving center. An institute of Vedic studies is proposed to be established at this site. Other major ISKCON centers in India are in Vṛndāvana, Bombay, and Kurukṣetra, the site of a three-crore rupee international Sanskrit university. This project will be sponsored by Alfred Ford, a nephew of Henry Ford. This will be the cultural..." Prabhupāda: Nephew, nephew of Ford, that's a fact. Alfred is from the daughter's side. So the present Mr. Ford, his nephew, certainly, because daughter's side. His mother is the daughter, granddaughter of Henry Ford. Alfred's mother is the granddaughter of Henry Ford. Therefore the present Ford is the maternal uncle of Alfred. *Maṇihāra: "This will be a cultural gateway of India for the people of the world. Hyderabad is the South Indian headquarters for ISKCON in India. The magnificent Śrī Śrī Rādhā*-Madana-mohana temple at Nampally Station Road, inaugurated by Swami Prabhupāda, will serve as a center of the cultural, spiritual, educational and social activities given to uplift the lives of people here. According to Śrī Mahāṁśa Swami, the president of the Society here, the devotees will hold seminars in colleges, factories, business centers, universities, schools, etc., to teach the techniques of spiritualizing the day-to-day life. Deity worship accompanied by the constant chanting of the holy names will be a special feature at the center. Besides, there will be daily classes in Sanskrit, Bhagavad-gītā, Bhāgavatam, and the Upaniṣads. There will be a Vedic library consisting of Swami Prabhupāda's books and various books on comparative study of religion. A cassette library will be a special feature here. Devotees will travel into towns and villages and do saṅkīrtana for the uplift of the masses. ISKCON Hyderabad is introducing for the first time in South India its major 600 acre community farming project, 40 kilometers from Hyderabad, to benefit about 20,000 villages. Besides regular free nutritional food distribution program, ISKCON is also planning to set up a model high-yielding 600-cow dairy farm, handloom centers, nature-cure hospital, and gurukula school project. Swami Prabhupāda's most substantial contribution, however, is to be found in his books, a veritable storehouse of knowledge and wisdom. He has written more than 50 books so far, explaining the principles of Kṛṣṇa or God consciousness in a logical, practical, and scientific way. Through his books people are understanding the eternal wisdom of the ancient Indian scriptures. That ISKCON has made a significant contribution to the intellectual, cultural, and spiritual life of contemporary man is obvious from the fact that people of all ages and..." Prabhupāda: A very important article. Gargamuni: A very good article. Prabhupāda: Yes. And it details everything. So you purchase some copies. We have to prepare... *Maṇihāra: "...of varying degrees of education and from many walks of life, students, teachers, scientists, servicemen, laborers, and professionals-indeed numerous race, creeds and nationalities*-are attached towards it. The unifying characteristics that brings such diverse individuals to Kṛṣṇa consciousness are high ethical standards and a sincere desire to understand spiritual truths. To make a pleasure-loving and easy-going Western youth to shed his fashionable dress and make him give up his dearly cherished beefsteaks, wine and women, cannabis and LSD, and don the saffron robe, shave his head, hold the daṇḍa, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, is no mean achievement. That ISKCON has made thousands of Western youths perform this seemingly impossible task is an eloquent testimony of the impact it has made on the life of the contemporary West. ISKCON does offer to the modern man a haven of refuge from the complexity of anxiety of present-day life. The society has indeed set before itself a noble and laudable ideal..." Prabhupāda: When the Englishmen were ruling over this country and Gandhi had to do so much labor, his life sacrificed, some way or other they were gone. Now the same Englishman is working here as book distributor. (laughs) Who was our ruler. So whose achievement is better? Gandhi's or mine? Gargamuni: Yours. Prabhupāda: And one Englishman is giving me massage. This rascal criticizing. But they have come to me for money? They are poor or they are illiterate fools? They have come to me for money or some material gain? No. Unless they are convinced about the spiritual gain, why they should give me such service? They have no eyes to see. Gargamuni: No, because in India, many Indians, when they approach a guru, they want something. But we didn't have to approach you for anything. Prabhupāda: That is the speciality. The guru... One should go to guru to serve him as menial servant. That is acceptance of guru. That is required. Nīcavat. Nīca, nīca means menial. Just like menial servant, he does everything. Similarly, to live with guru means to serve him as a menial servant. That is Vedic injunction. Nīcavat. You should not be puffed up, that "I am coming from such royal family, I am coming from such rich family." And that tendency is trained up from the childhood. A child does not know. Just like Pradyumna's son. You can engage him in any menial service. He does not discriminate. He's trained up. So this is gurukula. Very word is used, nīcavat. He gives service to the guru just like a menial servant. And this training being given from the childhood, he does not know what is low or what is high. His spiritual master asks to do something... Even Kṛṣṇa went to the forest to collect some dry wood. Vasudeva's son, in royal family, but he had to go. And all of a sudden there was storm and, what is called? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Lightning. Maṇihāra: Thunder. Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: Hail. *Prabhupāda: Hailstorm. And they became entrapped in the jungle whole night. And in the morning guru with other disciples came to search out them. And this Sudāmā Vipra and Kṛṣṇa was stranded, and they were found out, then taken back. So even Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He served the guru as menial. The guru's wife asked Him, "Bring some fuel from the jungle," and they went immediately. This is gurukula. No, I mean to say, prestigious position. "Guru has said*-has to be done." This training. Then? Maṇihāra: There's just a few more sentences. "The Society has indeed set for itself a noble and laudable ideal, producing men and women of high character, sincerity, and God consciousness." Prabhupāda: Send this rascal. Gargamuni: Yes, this shall be sent. And also to Om Mehta. Prabhupāda: You send. He knows you, Gargamuni. Yes. Say you have mentioned several times my name, so for your benefit, and to open your eyes, I am sending you one article. Please read what ISKCON is doing. Simply write this. Gargamuni: I have to go to Delhi for my (indistinct). I will go to the office, the Blitz office, and bring them this personally. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gargamuni: "You have written about me, but I would like to present you this article." Prabhupāda: Yes. For your benefit. Gargamuni: Yes, that is a fact. Prabhupāda: So you are keeping good health? Prabhā: Viṣṇu : Oh, yes, very good health. Prabhupāda: So, wherefrom just now you are coming? Prabhā: Viṣṇu : Well, we've just come from Eastern coast. We came down from Calcutta through Visakhapatnam and Vijayawada. We took some orders in Guntur. And before that... Prabhupāda: Guntur there is university? Pradyumna: Yes, there's a new one. Prabhupāda: Guntur, our Tīrtha Mahārāja has got a branch there. Is it not? Gauḍīya Maṭha they have got branch? Prabhā: Viṣṇu : In Visakhapatnam. Prabhupāda: No, that is another. In Guntur, yes. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : I didn't see. Prabhupāda: Visakhapatnam, there is one of my Godbrothers, Purī Mahārāja. Did you go there? Prabhā: Viṣṇu : No. But we saw some books which they published and they had your picture in the front actually. Just on the inside page your picture was there. Prabhupāda: In Guntur you received order from? Prabhā: Viṣṇu : The State Regional Library. It's the most prestigious library in Andhra Pradesh. They took a complete order for all the books. *Gargamuni: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta and Bhāgavatam. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : Yes. Prabhupāda: Standing order. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : Yes, standing order. And Visakhapatnam university also, standing order for all the books. We'll probably go back to Guntur again, and I think we'll make some more orders there next week. But it was Saturday and some of the colleges were closed, so we couldn't see the professors. Prabhupāda: Keep your health nice, because Indian climate sometimes does not suit. Eat simple things. Fruits, vegetables. Don't be miser in the matter of... But don't eat voraciously. Eat sufficiently, nutritious. Gargamuni: Yes. I have also told they should eat nice fruits and vegetable so they will keep healthy. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Vegetable, fruits, very innocent, little milk. That's all. Even if you don't eat these foodgrains, that is preferred. Better. Vegetable and fruits and milk, that is sufficient nutritious. There is no question of disease. But for our tongue taste we eat so many cooked food, but if we eat vegetables, boiled vegetables and fruits and milk, ah, it is sufficient. Ekādaśī. (laughter) Daily ekādaśī. Maṇihāra: This is the noon paper published... Prabhupāda: "Explosion." Mahāṁśa Swami is continuing this. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : Yes. Prabhupāda: It looks nice. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : Yes. *Prabhupāda: Buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. As soon as we decide to work for Kṛṣṇa very sincere. What is this Kṛṣṇa crossword? This is gambling. Gargamuni: Kṛṣṇa crossword puzzle. Hari-śauri: Oh. Crosswords are gambling? Prabhupāda: Yes. Maṇihāra: Gambling? Prabhupāda: Is it not gambling? Hari-śauri: They give clues and it's to make you think. Maṇihāra: They give a clue. They say... Prabhupāda: But there is prize. Maṇihāra: No, I don't think there is prize. Gargamuni: There is in the other newspapers. Maybe not in this. But they do offer prize. You send in, then they choose prize. Prabhupāda: So they work, originally it began for prize. (laughs) Otherwise, these karmīs, why they shall waste their time? They wanted some prize. Hari-śauri: Sometimes they print their names in the next issue. "The last week's winner was..." Prabhupāda: "Winner." That means prize. Maṇihāra: There's no mention of any reward. Just... *Prabhupāda: Anything of these four prohibited regulations should not do. Yatra pāpaś catur*-vidhā, four kinds of pāpa-sinful activities. From the very beginning, because I introduced this, no catur-vidhā, four kinds of pāpa. Therefore our Society is now so respected. From the very beginning we are following to keep these principles in forefront. This is appreciated by anyone. Even he is himself a debauch, he'll appreciate. It is so nice thing. A person may be a big drunkard, but he'll never like to see his son drunkard. That is natural. Gargamuni: Yes. My father he used to smoke, but he said, "You should not smoke." Prabhupāda: He said like that? Gargamuni: Yes. I think all fathers must say. Hari-śauri: Yes, mine did too. One day I walked in with a cigarette, so he beat me because I was smoking and I was only fourteen or something. So then I said, "But you were doing the same thing." And he beat me even more. Gargamuni: They say, "I am old enough to do it. You are not." Prabhupāda: "When you are an older, you become a debauch. But don't become now." (laughing) If it is a good thing, why older and younger? Maṇihāra: Our relatives, especially close relatives, parents, and they see, they can see immediately... Prabhupāda: This is natural. These things are not good. They know it, but they are habituated. But they do not like that son should be habituated. That is natural. Your father predicted about Brahmānanda that "This boy will be a saintly man." Gargamuni: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. He'll not be a karmī. From the beginning he could understand. How did he understand? Gargamuni: Because his tendencies were never in the business field. He was an intellectual. He used to read a lot and he was interested in religion. Prabhupāda: From the very beginning. Gargamuni: Yes. In college he took courses in religion. Prabhupāda: And when he first came to me he expressed that "I was searching this institution. Now I'll join." And he was getting at that time four hundred dollars? Gargamuni: Yes. A school teacher. Prabhupāda: Yes. So he was paying everything almost, keeping little money. And then he brought him. Hari-śauri: I have a picture of you with your hair. I'll show you. I have a picture of Gargamuni Swami when he still had hair and karmī clothes. Gargamuni: "Shakespearean locks." Prabhupāda used to call me that. Hari-śauri: Hair in this picture's a bit cropped up, but you had a bead bag then. Gargamuni: Oh, yeah, then that was later. Prabhupāda: You were selling Back to Godhead on the street? Gargamuni: Yes, in the pushcart. Prabhupāda: That time how many copies we were printing? Gargamuni: We were printing 500 to 1,000. We started at 500 then to 1,000. Prabhupāda: Then when Brahmānanda proposed that we can get it printed from Japan, but they want order for 20,000 minimum. So I said yes. Five hundred, 1,000 we were selling, and he proposed 20,000. "Yes. You order." (laughs) Now, two million? Hari-śauri: The biggest one I think was that centennial, bicentennial issue. What was that? It increases, anyway, every year. Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda was hesitating how 20,000 per month we shall consume. Gargamuni: Yes, we were all afraid. Prabhupāda: (laughs) I said, "Yes. You order. We shall consume." Then this Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, he helped. Hari-śauri: He was in book distribution from the start. Gargamuni: Yes. From Los Angeles. From their sales they were sending. Prabhupāda: Yes. He gave impetus for distribution. Then we got encouragement. Other party, another party. Where those mimeograph machine gone? Gargamuni: I don't know. After I went to San Francisco... They should be preserved. That was beginning. We could still use them. Prabhupāda: Yes. I paid $150 I had collected. They wanted hundred dollars each or $125 each. So I went there, that I want two machines, but I have got $150 dollars only. So he wanted to throw away the machine. "All right, you take two machines." So I gave $150 and took away two machines. I think it is more costly. Eh? *Gargamuni: Yes, oh, yes. Those are heavy*-duty machines. They were old, but they were good. Prabhupāda: They were working nice. And the printer was that boy? Gargamuni: Ranchor. Prabhupāda: Ranchor. Spoiling so much paper. Gargamuni: Yes, so much. Prabhupāda: He brought $500 from his grandfather. Gargamuni: Yes, he donated. Prabhupāda: His father and mother divorced. So he used to visit sometimes his grandfather, father's father. So naturally grandfather, when he used to visit, he gave him some money. Hari-śauri: And he'd give it to you. Then he gave it to you. Prabhupāda: Once he gave me. Anyway, Kṛṣṇa is giving us encouragement. Religious, philosophical book, as soon as they hear of it they immediately say, "No, no, we..." That is the natural tendency. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : But here in India when they see that a white man has taken to the Vaiṣṇava religion... Prabhupāda: That influences. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : ...they are so much respectful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Naturally. That chief minister said. Gargamuni: Yes. "It is a reversal of history." Prabhupāda: So that was my policy, that I shall go America, and if the Americans become devotees then these rascals will be automatically. Here they could not appreciate. When I started, wanted to start this movement, they refused to give their son. Hari-śauri: They always say a preacher is never appreciated in his home town. Prabhupāda: "Swamiji, what benefit there will be by becoming brāhmaṇa, by devotee? They have to earn their livelihood." Spiritual culture is in India practically rejected. They are convinced with the idea that for spiritual culture we are so much behind this material. That is their full conviction. Hari-śauri: It must have been a big shock for them when they first saw our devotees. It must have been a big shock for them when they saw these shaved heads and chanting. Prabhupāda: That minister is coming? Maṇihāra: Today? Prabhupāda: Somebody told? Gargamuni: Yes, at 10:30 they said. Gopāla said he's coming. I don't know, but I will ask. Maṇihāra: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we give prasāda to people... Prabhupāda: Anyone who comes, he must be given prasāda. Maṇihāra: ...what is the benefit they get exactly? There have been so many concoctions: "Oh, they will take human birth," "they will take this..." What is the actual benefit that a karmī will get when he takes prasāda? Prabhupāda: Prasāda means the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Maṇihāra: Mercy. *Prabhupāda: By eating you are getting mercy. Kṛṣṇa baḍo doyāmoy koribāre jihvā jay swa*-prasād-anna dilo bhāi. Swa-prasād-anna dilo bhāi. Sei prasāda anna pāo rādhā-kṛṣṇa-guṇa gāo preme ḍāko caitanya-nitāi. Maṇihāra: 'Cause some devotees, they are saying... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa baḍo doyāmoy. Because we want eating, so He is giving His mercy through eating. Eating nobody will refuse. So by eating he is being favored by Kṛṣṇa. This is the process. You understand Bengali? Kṛṣṇa baḍo doyāmoy, He's very merciful. Koribāre jihvā jay. We are accustomed to eat, go to the restaurant, go to the hotel, go to here and there, at home and so on. Simply eating, eating. So this is jihvā lampaṭa. Prostitution of the tongue. Just like a woman prostitute is not satisfied with one man. Similarly, our tongue is like a prostitute. It is not satisfied with simple foods. Sometimes here, sometimes there, sometimes on the street, sometimes on the restaurant, sometimes a hotel. Regular prostitution. It is called tongue prostitution. There are prostitution of three things: prostitution of the tongue, prostitution of the belly, and prostitution of the genital. Three kinds of. Udara*-upastha-vegam. Jihvā-udara-upastha-vegam [NoI 1]. Straight line. So to stop this prostitution is to control the tongue. The tongue prostitution means he wants to eat varieties of foodstuff. Kṛṣṇa is so merciful, "All right, you eat varieties of prasāda." Then tongue prostitution is controlled and naturally the belly and the genital controlled. Kṛṣṇa baḍo doyāmoy koribāre jihvā jay. To own victory over the tongue, He has given varieties... Therefore all nice things should be offered to Kṛṣṇa and then take prasāda. They will be benefited. Maṇihāra: This is Kṛṣṇa's arrangement, special. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa baḍo doyāmoy koribāre jihvā jay.. Jaya means you conquer over the tongue. If you do not give tongue Kṛṣṇa prasāda then the tongue will dictate, "Why not go to the restaurant?" So this is the process. Give everyone nice prasāda. His tongue will be conquered and he'll be conquered. He'll be able to conquer over the prostitution of the senses, and then he'll become a devotee. Hyderabad papers have given us good publicity. Very nice. Hari-śauri: Any reasonable persons appreciate it. Prabhupāda: How the books are being supplied? From Bombay? Prabhā: Viṣṇu : When we were working from Bombay, Bombay was sending them by rail. But now Gargamuni Swami, he has given us some books to supply immediately to the libraries, and then others that we can't... If we don't have enough to supply all the libraries, he's going to arrange for more to be sent. I think he wants to send a van, a vehicle around all the colleges to deliver the books. Prabhupāda: He will make some good profit? (laughs) Never mind. If books are distributed, that is our satisfaction. Let anyone make some profit. We don't mind. Hari-śauri: No, he wants to send one of our vehicles around. Yes? Prabhupāda: Never mind. The books must reach there. That is my... Prabhā: Viṣṇu : One way or the other the books will get there. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. Doesn't matter. We are not after profit. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : Besides, any profit it goes toward the development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the total amount? Prabhā: Viṣṇu : Of standing orders? So many. Over two hundred. Prabhupāda: Anyway, wherever you go, they take it. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : Yes. All these people... Practically every college will take something at least. If they don't have enough money for the whole standing order, at least they take some books out of respect. Everywhere they are very respectful, and everyone has heard of you and the work that you've done. Prabhupāda: They like. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : Oh, very much. People are very impressed. In the Western world people are so much unfavorable towards us. But here in India they treat us like kings. Sometimes when I come to colleges they practically touch my feet and give me all kinds of foodstuffs and drinks. Very nice. Maṇihāra: Even in the West they are not so favorable, but still everybody has heard of Kṛṣṇa. Everybody's heard of the Hare Kṛṣṇa people. Mahāṁśa: There's only five first initiations. Those ladies, I told them to wait some more time. Those ladies, I told them to wait for some more time because they were still drinking tea and coffee until yesterday. Prabhupāda: No, if they promise they will give up, then we can give. Mahāṁśa: I already told them, "You please..." They said they will give up but I said that you... Prabhupāda: No, if they promise you can give. Mahāṁśa: But, they are waiting, what shall I tell them now? I just now told them... Prabhupāda: No, tell them that, "If you promise from today you will give up..." Mahāṁśa: They promised. Prabhupāda: Then we shall give it. Mahāṁśa: All five of them? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. If they have promised, we shall give. Simply you don't break promise. You have promised*-do it. That's all. Mahāṁśa: I'll tell them. Another thing was those, what is, I don't know what is the position of ladies being initiated. They are young girls. They may get married. They may get married to someone outside the society. *Prabhupāda: But she can chant and observe the rules and regulations*-what is that. Mahāṁśa: Even if her husband does not follow? Prabhupāda: That does not matter. It is individual. Mahāṁśa: Then there'll be five more. *Prabhupāda: My sister, while she was married, her father*-in-law's house, they were all eating fish. So a new girl, ten years, eleven years old. So she was given this foodstuff with fish and everything. So she was crying. So her mother-in-law, "Why you are crying?" "No, we do not touch all these things." She immediately arranged special cooking for her. So her husband and other members they were taking fish, but she never touched. She never touched. She does not know what is fish. If one wants to keep oneself pure, he or she can keep herself pure in any circumstances. Mahāṁśa: Okay. And there'll be two second initiations, two devotees from here. So I will talk to them again because just now I've told them "You must wait one month more." They were willing to. Prabhupāda: If they'll promise, that's all right. Mahāṁśa: So I'll tell them like that. Okay. Then the names and beads will be given downstairs by Your Grace? You'll be coming down? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: They should be wearing their neckbeads before. At least two lines. *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa will recognize your service. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. You are distributing this knowledge, so you become immediately recognized, very dear servant, very confidential servant of Kṛṣṇa. He says personally. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu [Bg. 18.69]. "Amongst the human beings those who are doing this preaching, nobody is dearer than these persons to Me-anyone." You have read that? Prabhā: Viṣṇu : That's in Eighteenth Chapter? Yes. *Prabhupāda: To be quickly recognized by Kṛṣṇa, this is the short*-cut process. He never says those who are sitting in a secluded place meditating or chanting, doing nothing. He never says that "They are My very dear devotees." But those who are preaching-na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me [Bg. 18.69]. Just like government takes more care for the soldiers, especially when there is fighting. They are giving life for the state. So their comfort-first consideration. In the warfield, enough supplies. Anything the soldiers require. Enough supplies. Sometimes the store is blown out. And again another store is ready. Therefore in the wartime they control. [break] ...destroy them. And still another store. So therefore supply is sufficient. Civil supplies become controlled. Whatever they want, supply is there. The Britishers, British time. I have seen, in the village they will let loose the soldiers to rape anyone. Maṇihāra: The sergeants and corporals go first. The leaders of the battalion, they will go first to start to ravage and loot, and then all their men will follow. *Prabhupāda: Everywhere, huh? So I have seen in Calcutta outside villages. So my maternal uncle's house was their "Tally*-on." (?) So when they used to come there was a, what is called rumor, "Soldiers come..." They'll captured any woman from the street. No restrictions. Maṇihāra: They are simply killing, killing, killing, for no reason; therefore this killing turns into..., they turn into animal. So when they see woman, they... Prabhupāda: So everywhere the same business. The soldiers are let loose in the villages. Pradyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? What is the program? Will you becoming down? Prabhupāda: Why not? Yes. As soon as ready I shall go. Pradyumna: As soon as ready you will come. We're not waiting for any minister or something to come or anything? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: He's supposed to be here now. Prabhupāda: Just see if he's coming actually. Otherwise... Pradyumna: But as soon as we are ready you will come down? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Maṇihāra: Now England is finished. Everybody is completely unhappy. Nobody is happy in England. The rich men, once they were happy, now they are having their money taken away by the government. They are taxing, taxing, taxing, all the time. And the poor people, they have nothing anyway. Nobody has anything to talk about. Nothing to be proud of in England. Everybody is leaving. Every day in the newspaper you read such*-and-such has happened. Prabhupāda: You are Englishman? Maṇihāra: Yes. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : It's a sinful reaction. Prabhupāda: Yes. They expanded their empire. Where is that empire now? The expansion of empire began during Victoria's time. Victoria's time. Hari-śauri: Even before that, though, because they were going out in the ships and... America and all. Prabhupāda: During the first Elizabeth's time. That was the beginning. Hari-śauri: Queen Elizabeth the First. Maṇihāra: They went to America at that time. Pilgrim. Prabhupāda: So what is the time of Elizabeth? Prabhā: Viṣṇu : 1600-1700, that's four hundred years ago. Prabhupāda: So within four hundred years everything finished. (laughs) Everything built up and everything finished. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : You said before it was all propaganda. Maṇihāra: Now the Indians are coming from India, setting up big business in England. They're controlling big factories, business, so many mills, everything. In Manchester, where I come from... Prabhupāda: There is agitation to drive away the Indians. Maṇihāra: Now they are trying to drive away. Because they know they have money. They are taking over. Prabhupāda: Money and intelligence also. They can organize the English very nicely. And they're not extravagant. European and American, as soon as they get money they spend it. And Indians know how to save something. I saw in London almost all Indians have got their own house. Maybe small house, it doesn't matter. But they have got their own quarters. Every Indian. And they're living very comfortably. Englishmen, local men, renting. Maṇihāra: Big, big blocks. Prabhupāda: And many Indians, they have come from Africa. Maṇihāra: Kenya. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : Uganda, especially. Prabhupāda: Uganda. They got English citizenship. Now they cannot refuse them legally. Maṇihāra: There's one group, the National Front group, they are trying to stop the citizenship. Because the government they are saying, "Yes, we will make you citizens if you come here, get business." And they are fighting against this. Prabhupāda: They are refusing citizenship to the children. Children born of Indians in England, naturally they should be citizens. But now they're refused. *Hari-śauri: They're making all of them get six*-month visas. That's partly the reason why India is now thinking to impose visa regulations on the British, on British people who come here. Prabhupāda: Why they are doing that? Why not make world citizen? So much space. Let anyone go anywhere and live as he likes. Hari-śauri: Nationalism. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Internationalism. Why it is a short*-sighted view, "They cannot come here"? Everyone is God's son, and everything belongs to God. If one finds opportunity in some place, let him have it. I think if this is adopted by the United Nation, immediately the face of the world will change. The Chinese and the Indians, they are very expert. If they are given place, they can immediately turn that place into a nice food-producing village. They can do that. And you can produce anything usable from anywhere according to the climate. Especially in America, the facility is very, very great. So many jungles. If the jungles are cut, the woods can be used for making house and the field can be used for producing food and milk, cows, everything. Around our New Vrindaban there are many places. Hari-śauri: Both our... Pennsylvania farm has 100 acres of woods. Prabhupāda: Especially in America. There is enough place. And England also. There is enough place. They are not being utilized. Maṇihāra: Even my father, he has one big house with some land, one or two acres of land. I put this to him, I told him, "Why you cannot just live simply? You have enough room for one cow, which is enough milk for you and for four people that live there." Two sisters. Like that. One cow. "You can grow vegetables, you can have an apple tree, a pear tree. Like this you can have everything. You don't need to buy anything." Prabhupāda: What does he say? Maṇihāra: He says, "I'm a doctor." Prabhupāda: "We shall purchase meat and eat." Maṇihāra: "We need meat." He said, "We need meat." He's a doctor. He's saying he needs meat. I've not been eating meat for four years. There's nothing wrong with me. Prabhupāda: And when there will be no vegetables, where you'll get meat? After all, you must have sufficient vegetables for eating by the cows. But if there is no vegetable, then where you'll get meat? Actually, in Europe it is being done, that there is drought. There is no rain. There is no grass. Brown. Mahāṁśa: The Minister of Endowments is here. The Minister of Endowments. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you. Feeling all right? Endowment Commissioner: Yes, sir. Yesterday, our chief minister's not here. He came this morning. I asked him to come there, but he has not. Some other ministers are wanting to come. I wanted to at four o'clock. Prabhupāda: Four o'clock. All right. Mahāṁśa: Today so early now? But your rest. It's time you take rest, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I take rest up to four or half past four. Mahāṁśa: Can you come at five o'clock? Endowment Commissioner: At five o'clock there will be another program of our ministers. Prabhupāda: So I will go. You send car? Endowment Commissioner: Car, I will send one car. Mahāṁśa: As soon as your car comes, we will leave. Prabhupāda: You can give him that paper. Today is very nice report about our activities in the Sunday Chronicle. You can go up to the car. Go up to the car. So, I shall take little khicuḍi at half past one. Khicuḍi as he, as you gave in the first, very thin, but same way. And that lemon chutney. Maṇihāra: Lemon pickle. Prabhupāda: Pickle, yes. Khicuḍi with potato and other vegetables, and ghee should be given separately as I... Make it simplified. If I go to rest at two o'clock, then it will be possible to start. So see that it is quickly done. We shall go and come back by half past twelve. In Europe especially, if they do not change their mode of living, reject spiritual life, then gradually the whole situation will be dangerous. Then there will be no water supply. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : Yes. I read in the newspaper just a few days ago that Britain is thinking of importing drinking water. Prabhupāda: It is impractical. Is it possible to import drinking water for so many people? Prabhā: Viṣṇu : No. Prabhupāda: This is their utopian theory. Prabhā: Viṣṇu : They are thinking that man will conquer over nature. That's their ideal, that man will become God. Maṇihāra: Just before I left England... They have so many cows in the south of England, they were grazing. But because it was so hot, the grass was not growing. It was becoming very dry, and no new grass was growing because there was no rain. So then they had to move all the cows to the north of England. Thousands upon thousands of cows, they have to move in big lorries to the north of England where there was some grass. And now in the north of England there is no grass, so they're going to have to move them to Scotland. It's costing so much money. And then the cows are going to become thin. Prabhupāda: They are killing immaturely. Because they die, they cannot eat. They want to eat fresh, huh? The want to kill them alive. (pause) You want? So let us go down to the car. (end) *Conversation with Seven Ministersof Andhra Pradesh-*-August 22, 1976, Hyderabad *Prabhupāda: Our subject matter of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that systematize... The progress of human society should be systematized according to śāstra. Just like your government, it is conducted under certain rules and regulations. You have to refer to the government regulative principles, and expert government officers, they are selected. Formally it was ICS, now it is IAS. That means reference to the authorities. Similarly, there are authorities which are called śāstra. Śās*-dhātu means to rule. From Śās-dhātu, śāstra and śastra. Śastra means weapon. If you do not act according to the śāstra then there is śastra. Śastra means weapon, government. If you violate the rules of the government then there is police department, there is military department which will force you to accept the government regulation. And from the same śās-dhātu is śiṣya, one who voluntarily accepts the discipline. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Indian (1): Please permit... Prabhupāda: Your question is? Indian (1): Yes, varṇāśrama, I wanted to, Swamiji... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Varṇāśramācāra*-vatā. The varṇa and āśrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly, and the leg. Similarly, varṇāśrama means the head-brāhmaṇa; *the arms*-kṣatriya; *the belly*-vaiśya; *and the leg-śūdra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varṇa, four varṇas and four āśramas. Four varṇas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa, the social division must be observed. The brain must be there. Brāhmaṇa. Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also required-military department or kṣatriya department. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam(?). The kṣatriyas are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Kṛṣṇa chastised him, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam anārya-juṣṭam akīrti-karam. So everything is required. It is not that everyone should become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṇa. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brāhmaṇa must be maintained. A class of brāhmaṇa must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of kṣatriya must be there, a class of vaiśya must be there. This is called varṇāśrama. For the peaceful execution of material life these things are required, division. Just like in your government you have got some different ministerial department. You have introduced, this minister is for this department, this minister... Similarly, the brain department must be there. Without brain, even... Suppose a madman, he has got his hands and legs, but it is useless because the brain is lost. So brain must be there. So this varṇāśrama, revival of varṇāśrama is required. A class of men, brāhmaṇa-sattva śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. As there are different educational system, there must be an educational institute where these things are taught: how to become truthful, how to become self-controlled, how to become full in knowledge, how to become full believer in the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Āstikyam. In this way, as there is necessity of engineer, as there is necessity of medical man, as there is necessity of so many other departmental chiefs, similarly, a department of brāhmaṇa, a department of kṣatriya*-that education must be given. But in this age, because nobody is interested, so everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Everyone, all over the world, they are being educated to seek after some good service. Paricarya: he must have a good master; *then his education will be... He cannot act independently. So therefore in the śāstra it is said that everyone is anxious to get a good job, therefore, kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ, in this age almost everyone is śūdra. So if śūdras are there only, if there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, that society will not prosper very much. If we accept the injunction of the śāstra, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma [Bg. 16.23]. So this brāhmaṇa, or kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is not by birth. It is by qualification. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Guṇa. One must acquire the quality of brāhmaṇa and he must act as a brāhmaṇa. Then he is brāhmaṇa. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Even in śūdra family, if one is born śūdra, but he has attained the quality of a brāhmaṇa, he must be accepted as brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra injunction. Indian (1): No, the institution for training this Swamiji? Your proposition? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. I have got so many ideas. Indian (1): In Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (ministers start speaking in Hindi) [break] ...institute in your Andhra Pradesh. (pause, Hindi conversation) This is Telegu? In every language of the world. In Europe we are printing in English, in French, in Germany, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] (kīrtana) Hari-śauri: (in car) That temple of Birla's will be a little difficult to reach. (end) *Room Conversation with Endowments Commissionerof Andhra Pradesh-*-August 22, 1976, Hyderabad Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...every day to get permission. Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He is coming at one o'clock, so we'll give the whole mahā*-prasāda. Prabhupāda: So at four o'clock you are coming there? No. At Mr. Raja's house? Commissioner: ...minister. Prabhupāda: They are holding some meeting? Today we have got very good article in the Sunday Chronicle. Everyone is reporting about us very nice, and still there are some envious persons, they are creating doubts about us. Commissioner: They cannot create any doubts, Swamiji, as long as you are establishing the equality of man in the eyes of God, only one God. That is being done, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, we have no discrimination. Commissioner: Ācchā. No discrimination. And that is the... I don't think anybody called... Prabhupāda: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Commissioner: And how can there be anything greater service to humanity than... *Prabhupāda: Here is the first thing, that brahma*-bhūtaḥ, Brahman realization. Then prasannātmā. He is no more under the material tribulation or anxiety. We are in anxiety on account of our material conception of life. Prahlāda Mahārāja said sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt [SB 7.5.5]. Because we have accepted this asat body, material body, which will not exist, and we are concentrating our attention only on this body, therefore we are always anxious. Asad-grahāt. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt. On account of asat. So this is going on all over the world. Simply anxiety. They have created United Nations, but where is the United Nation? The people go there with anxiety, that's all. And come back again with anxiety. Because their asad-grahāt remains. The Indian is thinking, "I am Indian, this body." And the American is thinking, "I am American," and the Pakistani is thinking, "I am Pakistani." So asad-graha is there. So how the anxiety will go away? But they do not know this. There is no education. They want to keep him... "Feel always that you are Indian," "Feel always that you are American." "You feel always you are Hindu," "Feel always you are Muslim." Asad-graha. How there can be no anxiety? Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt. So asato mā sad gamaya. This is Vedic injunction. Don't remain on the asat platform. Come to the sat platform. Asato mā sad gamaya. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya. Don't remain ignorant. But unfortunately people are so absorbed in asat things they do not know what is sat. They cannot go to the sat platform. They cannot go to the light platform. And they are struggling like that. No solution. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. The government may change, but the men are the same, in darkness. What improvement will there be simply by changing government? The persons who are governing, they are in the darkness. So how, by change of government, there will be change of situation? I said in, where? That the United Nations is an assembly of dogs barking. Where did I say it? It was published in the paper. I said that if you keep them as dogs, and if you ask some dogs, "My dear dogs, please do not bark. Live peacefully," is it possible? The dog will bark. That is their business. So we are not enlightening them what is actually we are. We are keeping on this bodily conception. That is the dog's conception. And how there will be peace? There cannot be. Simply by agreement, by treaty, there can be any peaceful? No. Just like children. They agree, "Yes, we shall not fight." Next moment they'll fight. And again they will make agreement. This is going on. Commissioner: What could we do, the devotees staying(?) here in Andhra Pradesh state? *Prabhupāda: You become guided by Bhagavad*-gītā. Commissioner: (Hindi) If you think that everything could run then ahobalam(?) is there. They are now (indistinct). But if you are going. Tomorrow they have to (indistinct). Prabhupāda: You have counted? Not yet. Counting? No. Hari-śauri: I've got it listed. 182. 1-8-2. All their temples should be reorganized on the... People should come there for being educated. Temple means it is an educational center. Commissioner: Educational center. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Brāhmaṇas means they are teachers. Paṭhana*-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ. So every temple should be educational center, and the brāhmaṇas should be engaged. They should be properly educated and they should teach others also. In this way, temple means education in spiritual life. And actually spiritual life is life. This material life, the bodily conception of life, is dead life. Aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam. This nice shirt you have changed because there is life. When there is no life, who is going to change dress? The body is there, but why you are not interested in changing the dress? Better interest... The sooner the body is thrown away or burned, better. So similarly... [break] There is a proverb that a vulture goes very high, but his ambition is where is a dead body. As soon as he finds a dead body, (growling sound) immediately. And we see, "Oh, how high he has gone." So what is the going up so high if your aim is to find out a dead body? And actually, these aeronautics, they went to very high, suppose they went to moon. But after going there they find, "Where is Moscow? Where is this?" The same vulture business. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to give relief to the human society. So everyone should cooperate with this movement. Unfortunately, there are so many envious persons, they are writing against us, talking against us. They should be envious. Because they want to exploit, keeping the people in ignorance. Commissioner: That's what I find, Swamiji. My work is also very difficult. Work is very difficult. We have about 30,000 temples in this state, properties that have temples, the (indistinct) of temples, interest in temples... Prabhupāda: No, it can be... If government takes our advice, we can give them advice how to organize, how to utilize. Commissioner: Definitely. We want a scheme. Definitely. Fortunately, it is the land of this Kṛṣṇā and Godāvarī. It is a sacred land. Tuṅgabhadrā, Kṛṣṇā, Godāvarī. We are finding everywhere there has been some kind of ups and downs. It has been studied. Prabhupāda: It is the government's duty to settle up. But they must know how to settle up. If they do not know then they cannot do anything. Commissioner: No, we want guidance. Prabhupāda: That guidance we can give you. That guidance we can give. Because we have taken the brāhmaṇa's position. The brāhmaṇa's duty is to give guidance to the kṣatriya. Government means kṣatriya. So if the kṣatriyas take guidance from the brāhmaṇa and they try to execute, then everything will be all right. So we can give you sufficient guidance provided you accept it. (laughter) Commissioner: The end is common. And we have found yesterday some of your śiṣyas had come. They're so happy. They said, "This is what the requirement is," and we accept him as a śiṣya. Prabhupāda: Temple means a center, educational center, education. Give them prasāda. Bring. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Commissioner: And we have centers through Tirupati all over the country in our important centers, we have got some centers. Prabhupāda: Now the thing is that, say, for Tirupati, it has got biggest income. But I understand that this income is being engaged for industrial purpose. But that, how to utilize in industrial purpose, that you do not know. *Commissioner: But just one thing, let me explain Swamiji. We are not directly giving to industry. What we are doing is we are depositing in a fixed deposit in certain banks, getting the highest interest. That interest we are utilizing for Sanskrit studies, Vedic studies, etc. We are not directly giving. What we are doing is this: we invest in your bank, but bank shall invest in a productive industrial purpose. We put a condition. We are not directly putting in the industry, and that's a wrong propaganda that's being done. What we are doing is the interest that comes, the funds that are there, they are safely there in a bank. The interest that comes we utilize only for religious purposes, like, as I said, the dharma*-pracāra, veda-pracāra, all that we are doing. *Prabhupāda: So, I have taken this veda*-pracāra. Why not come and join with us? Commissioner: Yes, definitely. *Prabhupāda: All over the world they're accepting. Now these foreigners, they're accepting. I have done it single*-handed. So if the government comes forward and join with me, we can do at least ten times work. *Commissioner: How, kindly give us sir... I don't know if I'm taking your very valuable time. We are very sincere about it. We are having Himalayan opposition for some of our schemes. But when I studied yesterday, because before I came to you I thought I shouldn't just come for wasting your valuable time. Therefore I have found that your aims are what we have been thinking of for the society. The veda*-pracāra, we were thinking that we have also started on a small scale, not on your scale. And if it is that we were thinking in these terms-translation of these Vedas... *Prabhupāda: First of all, first of all, you must know what is Veda. Vedas, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. Vedic knowledge means to understand Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself, to understand Him. That is Bhagavad*-gītā. So if you accept the principles of Bhagavad-gītā, the whole Vedas are accepted. Because purpose of Veda is to understand Kṛṣṇa. And that Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself-"I'm like this." So where is the difficulty to understand Vedas? *Commissioner: May I explain to you what we have, we are doing, Swamiji? In the religious we have now taken statistics of our veda*-paṇḍitas. There are three hundred of them. Now they have said they don't want to come out of their villages. We have said wherever they are, in their own village, for one or two hours, they meet, chant the Veda in the temple or the village. Prabhupāda: They'll not do that. Commissioner: They are now willing to. Prabhupāda: There may be some percentage. If you do not accept the recognized process... Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was a great scholar. So He was chanting and dancing. So some of the sannyāsīs, Māyāvādī sannyāsīs in Benares... (to servant:) You keep it there, they will take. There was a meeting, and the question was that "You are a sannyāsī..." This question was put to Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that "You have taken sannyāsa, you do not read Vedānta, and you are mixing with the sentimental persons, chanting and dancing. What is this?" This was the question. So He explained that, "Yes, My Guru Mahārāja found Me a great rascal." Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana [Cc. Ādi 7.71]. You understand Bengali? No. "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a rascal number one. Therefore he has chastised Me." What is that? Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. "He has said that 'You are rascal, you cannot read *Vedas* and Vedānta. You are rascal. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing that." Commissioner: Chanting, yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: So He's Kṛṣṇa Himself. He's neither rascal nor fool. But He represented the rascal and fools that who will read Vedānta. Everyone is after this Veda. No student will come to study Vedānta. That is not possible in this age. You see? Maybe somebody interested, but generally they'll not come. Even if one is born in the brāhmaṇa family, he is no more interested. *Commissioner: May I submit, Swamiji, therefore what we did was, these three hundred people, if they chant, three hundred rupees for a dāna*-paṭha,(?) and two hundred rupees for him and a hundred rupees a... Prabhupāda: No, no, brāhmaṇa, why he will take money? Commissioner: It is, no, we are giving it as dakṣiṇā. Prabhupāda: No, dakṣiṇā. But they are chanting in exchange of dakṣiṇā. Because you are giving dakṣiṇā, therefore they are chanting. And you stop that dakṣiṇā, nobody will come. Commissioner: True. You are correct. (laughs) That we have told them. If they teach their own children, hundred rupees for him for teaching, forty rupees for a child who learns. Prabhupāda: That they will do, but when the hundred rupees will not be sufficient, they'll give up. Commissioner: One thing is that at least one child is learning in each and every... Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that is not the process. If you want to satisfy with money, and in exchange of money he wants to chant *Vedas*, that is not... Commissioner: No, Swamiji, some of them didn't care either for the money. Prabhupāda: Some of them maybe. Commissioner: And they were starving, and they were starving. Prabhupāda: But generally, generally, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's process should be taken. As Caitanya Mahāprabhu represented Himself that "I am fool." He is not fool. He's representing the fools of this age. So if we take that process, it will be successful. It will be successful. Commissioner: That also, (indistinct) that bhajana and every. Prabhupāda: Yes, let them come. Let them come in the temple and there may be sumptuously offering of bhoga. Let them chant and take prasāda. In this chanting illiterate, literate, rascal, fool, lower, higher, everyone can join. And give them prasāda. See the effect. *Commissioner: Yes. That is also part of the, that is the other part of it. We are having dhana*-prasthānam,(?) bhajana group, hari-kathā group... *Prabhupāda: But kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. The Vedas are meant for the brāhmaṇas. So there is no brāhmaṇa practically. Neither there is training of brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa means he must speak truth. Satyā śama dama titik*-and if you ask nowadays anybody that "You don't speak lie, you speak truth," he will laugh, that "What a rascal this is. By speaking truth one can live nowadays?" he will say. The first business is satyam. And if you ask him, "You speak truth," he will laugh. So where is brāhmaṇa? A brāhmaṇa is so simple that if you ask him about his secrecy, he'll tell you, "Yes, this is..." Satyam. Just like Jābāli? Upaniṣad, he was asked, he went to Gautama Muni. Satyaka, yes, for initiation. Gautama Muni asked him, "Who is your father?" He said, "I do not know." "Go to your mother." He went to the mother. Mother said, "Oh, my dear son, I do not know." He was a prostitute's son. So he came to Gautama Muni and said, "Sir, my mother does not know, I do not know." So he said, "You are a brāhmaṇa. Because you don't keep any secrecy you are brāhmaṇa. I'll initiate." So it is not the birth, but the quality-truthful. But these qualities will come when you make him a devotee. So this process should be taken, how to make him a devotee. And the easiest process of making devotee is let them come to the temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasāda. Then gradually they'll become... I began this movement on this. Very simple. And they have come. I never asked them to study Vedas in the beginning. What they'll read Veda? What do they know? But this process has become successful. So if you take this process it will be very quickly successful. And then literature. I never gave them literature. I have got about eighty books. Not that in the beginning I asked them, "Come here and read books." No. "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasāda." Now they are interested in reading books, in publishing them, in selling them and everything. They are doing everything. So if you take the authorized program it will be successful. Otherwise, it will not be successful. Commissioner: Well... And how long the Swamiji will be here? I'll take up the program. We will. As a matter of fact, somehow... Prabhupāda: I am always at your service. *Commissioner: Somehow, the coincides, our program, we have taken a small scale. Every temple has been asked to have this bhajana, hari*-kathā, then this pūjā... Prabhupāda: There must be some competent man to induce. Everything will be planned. Commissioner: Therefore our training has to be started perhaps here. Some of those people who could go. These are all the ideas of course. If you could give an impetus, that's exactly what I wanted to... Take advice from you. Now if a center is established. What we lack very badly are those people who can competently take up this work in the whole state. The temples are there, the funds are there, organization is there. Men who are, as you say, the real brāhmaṇa, who could go and preach this, we are lacking. We are lacking. And he has to be trained. And the right training you are giving. Anywhere I see your men are... Prabhupāda: So we can give men. Commissioner: Yes. And a training institute has to be started. Very badly we need it. My department also. Having any number of people. It is suffering because we don't have the proper people with that objective to govern... Prabhupāda: Because the culture is lost. Culture is lost. Commissioner: Because we take the local people as trust board members. We appoint officers. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said if you keep them dogs, what is the use of United Nations? You cannot make the dogs united. That is not possible. Commissioner: Yes. Therefore recently in Tirupati we have been thinking of starting a training institute along with Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. Prabhupāda: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have no idea. Commissioner: They have no idea. Ramakrishna Mission we asked. Prabhupāda: They have no idea. Commissioner: They don't have people. They said, "We don't have men even for our own missions." *Prabhupāda: No. How long they can go on with false pretense? And these people, they have no idea what is spiritual life. It is a profession for collecting money. So if you... We do not like to criticize. Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Kanayalal Munshi, he did not believe there is life after death or he did not believe there is Kṛṣṇa, fact. This is the founder. So what is their knowledge? And Vivekananda made Nārāyaṇa daridra. So this is their manufacturing ideas. They have no sound knowledge, vacant. They are misled themselves, and they will mislead others. This is going on. But if you say that, "You are the only man?" I can say, "Yes, I am the only man" at the present moment. You believe or not believe. And why? Because I am following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. That's all. I do not touch anything. That is our process. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we say, that's all. Therefore there is little success. I don't manufacture. I have no extraordinary power or I cannot show magic or jugglery of words. But I do sincerely to present what Kṛṣṇa has said. So if you do that, you'll be successful. If you do not do that, you'll never be successful. If you manufacture idea... We must know that we are defective. Our manufacturing of idea all defective. We must take standard instructions from Kṛṣṇa. Then everything... So if you stick to this point, then we can guide you. And you'll be successful. Guidance is Kṛṣṇa. Our duty is to present Kṛṣṇa. Just like somebody has sent you money order, 1,000 rupees. I am a peon. I am not giving you the money. The money is sent by somebody. But I do not open it, adulterate it*-that is my honesty. That is my honesty. So the instruction is Kṛṣṇa's. If I honestly deliver the same message to you then you are benefited, I am benefited. And as soon as I pilfer it, then it is useless. I am useless and you don't get profits, success. So if you decide to take Kṛṣṇa's instruction rightly, then we can give you very good guidance. Everywhere you'll be successful. Everything is there. Commissioner: Any plans to have training and... *Prabhupāda: Anything. It must be sanctioned by the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā. Then it will be successful. Commissioner: For success the people, the local language, so that they may... Prabhupāda: Language difficulty is there. That we have to solve. Commissioner: Therefore training has to be done here and in other places, and a center has to be there. You could plan one of those with... *Prabhupāda: Yes, plan is there. Just like we are doing. And we can give you in detail. Provided you accept this principle that we shall abide by the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā. Commissioner: Who questions the *Gītā* and the *Upaniṣads*? *Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. Very difficult. You see. Big, big scholars, big, big politicians, they are supposed to be preaching Bhagavad*-gītā. They take their photograph in front of Bhagavad-gītā, but without Kṛṣṇa. They'll never talk of Kṛṣṇa any time. Banish Kṛṣṇa. Even Gandhi has said, "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different." Perhaps you have read in his Gītā-Press edition.(?) Kṛṣṇa is speaking... Radhakrishnan said when Kṛṣṇa says man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, he says "It is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." Kṛṣṇa says man-manā bhava mad bhaktaḥ, and he says it is not to the Kṛṣṇa person. Just see how misleading it is. And if a person like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi, misleads, then who will hear me? What I am? There is one big person in Bombay, he said that he has set aside ten lakhs of rupees for Gītā-pracāra. But when I proposed Gītā-pracāra means Kṛṣṇa pracāra, so he said, "No, I want Gītā without Kṛṣṇa." Everyone... *Commissioner: Then who is the Gītā*-pracāra? Gītā-pracāra. Prabhupāda: They are doing that. You can see from this big, big person. Gandhi used to say that he believes in *Gītā* and *Gītā* gives him solace in difficult times and so on, so on. But has he ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Tilok has ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Radhakrishnan has ever preached Kṛṣṇa? Nobody. Their policy is take Sītā and kill Rāma. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā. Take away *Gītā* and kill Kṛṣṇa. So Rāvaṇa's policy will never be successful. Rāvaṇa's policy means he will be destroyed. You cannot do any harm to Rāma, but he will be destroyed. This policy, that take Sītā and kill Rāma, means he will destroy himself. So this is going on. Take *Gītā* and kill Kṛṣṇa. This will destroy the whole thing. This Rāvaṇa's policy. And Hanumān's policy is somehow or other rescue Sītā and get her seated by the side of Rāma. Therefore he's worshiped, Vajrāṅgajī. That is the difference between Rāvaṇa's policy. Sītā is the via media. But one is trying to bring back Sītā and seat her by the side of Rāma, and another is trying to take away Sītā and kill Rāma. This wrong policy will not take. We have to accept the instruction of *Gītā* and accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord. Then everything will be all right. Prasāda? So thank you very much for your coming. So, kindly if you will agree to take the instruction of *Gītā*, I am always at your service. I'll give you such guidance, our men, our everything. But you have to decide this. You cannot take up this policy, take *Gītā* and banish Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted.(?) (end) *Morning Walk-*-August 23, 1976, Hyderabad Mahāṁsa: It's just a club for children, for playing. That's all. [break] Prabhupāda: We shall go this way or this way? Mahāṁsa: If you like you can go... This will be moist. Harikeśa: There's no real path there. Mahāṁsa: There's a path over here. Why don't you go around here. This is an archaeological museum, Prabhupāda. Indian devotee: Before it was an archaeological museum. Old carvings of various temple deities, but they just keep it like that, so. Devotee: It's not open now, though. Prabhupāda: Even it is open what we have to do there? (pause) Harikeśa: Like to go this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda? [break] Mahāṁsa: "Lesser the happier." Prabhupāda: Hmm? "Lesser the happier." Vāsu Ghoṣa: Family planning. *Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā. That is the verdict of Bhāgavata also. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Kṛpaṇā na iha tṛpyanti. One or two child, children, they are not satisfied. They want to produce more and invite distress more. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. But they are practicing in a different way. And Bhāgavata recommends brahmacārī. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. You know this gentleman? (pause) Mahāṁsa: Yes, we can walk from here. *Prabhupāda: Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Unless one diverts attention to Kṛṣṇa consciousness it is not possible. One must have some business, engagement. Just like in New York as soon as there was electric failure for four hours, so many women became pregnant. Because he has no business in the darkness. But if he was trained up to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, one could utilize the time for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But they have not such training. Nobody has such training. So how they will utilize the time? Come on, let us have... Although he knows... Indian devotee: Especially Prabhupāda, when there is a famine, where there is no more food... They had big famine... Prabhupāda: Food, that is punishment. It is not the... Famine is punishment from the side of nature. She'll not supply to the rākṣasas. That is a punishment. Otherwise, there is no question of population. You may have as many... Just like the birds and beasts. They do not care for... They have got enough food. But they do not violate the laws of the nature. Harikeśa: One may argue that in nature there is this leveling out of the species, that one species kills another off so that the population is maintained at the proper level. Prabhupāda: No species killed by another species. It is rascal proposal. Harikeśa: Well, members of the species are killed by... Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Jīvasya jīva... jivo jīvanam. One animal is eating another animal. That is another thing. But that does not mean species finished. That is nonsense. Harikeśa: No, I didn't mean. So the human being, the animals can't kill off the human being so that the people have to do it. Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? Harikeśa: The people have to do it to maintain the population level. We have to kill some of the children so that it doesn't become out of control, like the animals do it. Prabhupāda: You are less than animal. You are greatest animal. You want to kill your children. Vāsu Ghoṣa: But they have no life. There is only you know an amoeba in the womb. Prabhupāda: Don't talk nonsense, waste time. All rascals proposal. Don't indulge in this rascal theory. Indian devotee: Now there is a society for prevention to the cruelty to animals. At the same time they are killing the animals also. Mahāṁsa: They think they can adjust and control. Prabhupāda: Mūḍha. Indian man: There is a preordained karma that says some human being should come into existence or some spirit soul should take some body. Prabhupāda: Transmigration. Indian man: How can you reconcile this birth control with that? *Prabhupāda: Birth control*-by brahmacārī. You become brahmacārī. Indian man: No, by this contraceptive and otherwise. Prabhupāda: That is most sinful activity. Birth control should be done by restrained sex life. Indian man: That is one way. Prabhupāda: That is the way. Other way all sinful. Indian man: Sinful, but sinful things are being committed... Prabhupāda: They'll suffer. They'll suffer. Those who are killing the children, they will be killed. They will enter into the mother's womb and they will be killed. They'll be punished. Tit for tat. That they do not know. This way or that way? Indian man: This way. This way. *Prabhupāda: These rascals, they have no education about this law of nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. They're acting very independently. But ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. Rascals, ahaṅkāra, vimūḍhātmā. They are rascals. They'll be punished. Just like a thief defies the laws of government, but they are punished. Indian man: Today it's a matter of greatest coincidence. Yesterday got up early in the morning to go for a walk. I thought of Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa, then I met you today. Of course, I have no, myself and my wife are life members. We come sometimes, but morning chanting for me rather, it didn't happen. Today it happened and I met you today. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Passerby: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Indian man: I am one of your life members. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: I think they're everywhere. (laughter) Indian man: This is Mr. Rajarao, advocate. I am also advocate You understand? Indian man: Ramrao, T. Ramrao. Indian man: I am the earliest life member. Indian man: Extremely happy to have your darśana today. *Prabhupāda: About birth control. So birth control means the father and mother, the father and mother should not become father and mother unless they take full responsibility for the children to save them from the repetition of birth and death. This is the śāstric injunction. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum. The, everyone is, in this material world, is going on in the cycle of birth and death. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Transmigrating from one body to another. And after many millions of years he gets the chance of becoming a human being. Now in this life he can stop the birth and death. Punar janma jāyate. That is Vedic culture. How to conquer over this process of repetition, birth and death. That is only possible in the human life. A chance is given, and if he misses this chance then again he'll be cycle... Therefore the father and mother's duty is to train up the children in such a way, that this is the last birth. No more birth. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. And that training, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But the things are different. Both the parents and the children, all of them are going again in the cycle of birth and death and wasting the opportunity of getting a human body. This is modern civilization. They do not know this science. They are kept in darkness. This is so-called education. Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ paramaṁ mama [Bg. 7.25]. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi... They do not know what is the destination of life. In darkness. There is no education practically. The modern education is how to eat nicely, how to sleep nicely, how to have sex nicely, how to defend nice. And that is the business of the animals. They know how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex, and how to defend. So the extra intelligence of human being is making a royal edition of eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That's all. What is called? Deluxe edition. The modern civilization is deluxe edition of animal life. That's all. Animal-deluxe edition. That's all. They do not know what is the aim of life. So as you are life member, you should study our, this philosophy. Life members, they are given books. And preach this, and save this human... That is the duty. Paropakāra. Human life is meant for paropakāra. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. *Indian man: Since millions of years we are having the births and re*-births, both animals and human life and all that. Cycle is going on. So what is the end for this cycle, in the end. Prabhupāda: In the end I have already explained. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Indian man: Mr. Rao Swami, officer from railway state office. He's from Bengal. Prabhupāda: Oh. You are Bengali? (Where is your home?) Kothāya bāḍi āpnāra? Howalajela (?)(Bengali) Indian man: The cycle is going on. That's what you were saying. Indian man: Cycle, as we see it is going on since millions of years. And it is likely to go on like this. *Prabhupāda: No. You can stop it. You are missing the chance because you are not serious about the end of life. You are not disgusted with this repetition of birth and death. That is foolishness. Just like a thief, a criminal. He is constantly put into the jail but he's not disgusted. He's committing again and again and again. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. This is going on. This is foolishness. He does not make any provision how to stop it. That is for want of knowledge. This is going on. Indian man: In olden days... Prabhupāda: They knew it. That is Vedic culture. Because Vedic culture is from the very beginning. The children were given instruction, brahmacārī. Indian man: It is said in some quarters that in olden days because of a lack of so many amenities for our life and all that... Prabhupāda: What is that? What is your ability? Your ability is that you work like an ass and die. That's all. That's your ability. Mūḍha. What is your ability? Can you stop death? Then what is your ability? You have to die. So it is false ability. It is struggle only. You try to live but nature will kill you. This is your ability. Indian man: He is talking of amenities, there are so many amenities now... Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of this amenities? After all you are going to die. Your all amenities will remain background. That's all. Indian man: In this short period of life we have more, rather, material progress, I say... *Prabhupāda: What you will do with the material progress? Suppose you have got good bank balance, nice house and everything, good society, friendship, relative... But at any moment death will come and kick you out. What you can do? Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. Death will come and will take everything, what you have got. Finished. And he will make you a dog. Now bark. How can you stop it? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. You have practiced how to bark in the legislative assembly, now go and become a dog and go on barking. Yow, yow, yow. This is going on. They do not know what is life, what is the purpose of life. Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad āhur anīśvaram [Bg. 16.8]. This is going on. Asatyam. Somebody says this is false. Asatyam. Apratiṣṭham, there is no cause. There is no God. And this is going on. Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad āhur anīśvaram [Bg. 16.8]. Everything is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. And this Bhagavad-gītā is Indian. Of course, it is meant for everyone, but it was spoken in India, and Indians are rejecting. And if somebody takes it, he misinterprets and spoils himself and spoils others. This is going on. Their modern civilization is trying to mitigate miseries of life. And Bhagavad-gītā proposes that first of all try to understand what is your misery of life. Do you know what is the misery of life? Huh? What is the misery of life? Indian man: Misery of life is to be like this only. To live like this without the divine knowledge or without... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Miseries of life, real miseries of life that you are soul, eternal. Na jāyate na mriyate vā. There is no birth, there is no death. So therefore the birth and death is real misery. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. This is knowledge. But they have no brain. It is clearly said that na jāyate na mriyate vā. But these rascals never think "Why I am getting birth? Why I am dying?" So rascal. It is clearly said na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Where is that education? They do not know what is miseries. And they are trying, struggling to get out of misery. But they have no knowledge what is the actual misery. And therefore Kṛṣṇa pointing out, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. This is knowledge. Simply wasting time. They do not know what is the problem of life and how to solve it. They have no education. So which way? Which way? Mahāṁsa: Either we can go a little longer and come back, or we can go this way. Harikeśa: The car is here if you want to go. Prabhupāda: So, come on. Let us talk. [break] ...problem of life. But they do not care for it. Nobody is serious about this point, that we learn that I am ahaṁ brahmāsmi, I am spirit soul, and na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20], I am not finished after finishing this body. Who is caring? Then what is my position? Any gentleman, suppose we have given notice that you have to vacate this house, this apartment. Your term is finished. So he finds out another house. But what these rascals are doing? They are so foolish. The notice is there, that any moment you'll be kicked out. And where you are going? Where to stay? And they are intelligent. And they're intelligent. They are struggling for existence, but who will allow you to exist? That the small brain cannot think. Who will allow you to exist? But they foolishly say struggle for existence. Survival of the fittest. Who is fit? He does not know. Indian man: Survival of the fittest theory may be applicable in our spheres because fit means... Prabhupāda: Fittest means who does not get next a material body. He is fit. He is fit. Because as soon as you get a material body... Indian man: Then all of us say when the day comes that when all of us can conquer death. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Indian man: Then that means in that case no rebirth. Prabhupāda: Rebirth means that... You are eternal. So by karma you are put into this material world. So it is a struggle. Just like a fish, somehow or other taken from the water and put onto the land. So he's all life struggling. So he has to be put again in the water. Then his life is perfect. Indian man: It is back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: What is the mystery in that case of universe or divine bringing up this life? Prabhupāda: Bringing up this life? What is the mystery to bringing one to the criminal court? What is the mystery? Indian man: Karma. Indian man: But we must be some start somewhere. Is it not so? *Prabhupāda: Start means, just like what is the starting point of a criminal? He wants to violate the laws and starting, criminal. You can stop it immediately and you can start immediately. It depends on you. If you violate the law, you become criminal. If you don't violate, remain in your own position. This is the start. As soon as you defy God and you try to become independent, then the starting is there immediately. And again when you surrender, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. Then you stop. So stopping and starting is in your hand. That is karma. It is not that starting is done by somebody else. You start your business. And you stop it. [break] Indian man: No, but just in the beginning when the universe started... Prabhupāda: This is the beginning. That beginning is always there. Just like you are a gentleman. You can become immediately criminal. This is in your hand. So you cannot find out the history because at any moment you can start. Indian man: If the soul was once a gentleman... Prabhupāda: Soul is eternal. Indian man: Ah. This who took the birth of this human being or animal was a gentleman. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is gentleman by nature. But criminal by artificial means. As soon as... Indian man: But even if you attain mokṣa is that eternal or just temporary and the until becomes lost, and then... Prabhupāda: Mokṣa, there are two kinds of mokṣa. One, generally, they like that, to remain in impersonal Brahman. Indian man: For a limited period. *Prabhupāda: Limited period, no. Because he cannot remain there. Just like if you go in the sky you cannot remain in the sky. If you don't get any shelter you have to come again. They are going to, trying to go to the other planets, but because they cannot, they come back again. Similarly, you are living entity, you want enjoyment. So what enjoyment you will have in the sky? You require society, friends, love, everything. So these impersonalists, their mokṣa is temporary because they think by merging into the impersonal Brahman I shall be happy. But that he cannot. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Although they go to the impersonal Brahman, but there is no ānanda. The living entity is seeking after ānanda*-mayo 'bhyāsāt. By nature he is seeking ānanda. So you do not get any ānanda. Indian man: Is that merger itself not ānanda? Prabhupāda: No ānanda. It is eternity, but no ānanda. So eternally how you can remain without ānanda? So you have to come back again. Because here there is something ānanda although it is temporary. So unless you go to God and dance with Him, you'll have to back, come. So impersonalists, they cannot reconcile how God can be personal. Because you have got very bad experience of personal here, they think God is also a similar person. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. He thinks God is also a human being like me. Avajānanti. Mūḍhāḥ. They are mūḍhas. They are not intelligent. Indian man: But what is the stage at which it is ātmā gets merged with Paramātmā? If ātmā would get merged with Paramātmā then... *Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. You cannot merge. You simply imagine. Merging means you merge in the spiritual atmosphere, but without ānanda you cannot stay there. Therefore you have to come back again to this material world. Suppose you are advocate and you are given some place without any practice. How long you will you remain there? If I say, "Please remain here happily without any practice." How long you'll remain? We want some activities. That is our nature, for ānanda. But here we are trying to get that ānanda, but that is temporary. That is not satisfying us. Therefore being disgusted we want to stop it and merge. But there is also temporary. Unless you go back to home back to Godhead, there is no complete life. Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes and shows by His spiritual activities. He's playing with the boys, He's dancing with the girls, He's killing the demons, and so many activities. This is ānanda. Sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. They are all spiritual. You have read our Kṛṣṇa Book? Yes. There is everything. So as far as possible we are trying to give people the real knowledge from the śāstra. Now it is up to them to accept or take advantage of it. Indian man: And practice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Will Swamiji discourse this evening? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: You are doing greatest service to the humanity throughout the world. Prabhupāda: At least, I am trying. But it is very difficult. We have to spoil hundreds of gallons blood before one comes to the point. It is very simple thing. Only our leaders of the society, they are sleeping. They are misguided themselves and misguiding others. That is the difficulty. Indian man: Swamiji, here is another advocate Prabhupāda: Now be advocate of Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Yes. Janma sārthaka kari' kara paropakāra. Indian man: How long you are going to be in Hyderabad? Prabhupāda: I am going day after tomorrow. Indian man: To? Prabhupāda: I'm going to Delhi. Indian man: Most of your time you are in the States. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just now I am coming from Europe. States, Europe, then here. Indian man: What is the method of attaining permanent and impermanent? Permanent ānanda? Prabhupāda: That is spiritual life. When you are not enwrapped with this material body, then is ānanda. Indian man: But that life itself is temporary and then... Prabhupāda: No, that is not temporary. That is permanent. That is to stay with God. That is permanent. Indian man: But you will do so only so long as you are in your body, is it not? After you leave the body then probably you might attain mokṣa for a temporary period. Prabhupāda: No. That is impersonalism. And those who actually go to Godhead, they remain in their spiritual body. Indian man: Between meditation and kīrtana, which is the easier and... Prabhupāda: Kīrtana. Yes. Meditation means you'll think of your business and all sleep, snoring. That is meditation. (laughter) (end) *Morning Walk Excerpt-*-August 24, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: What trees? Indian devotee: All flowers, shade and more fruit trees. About six or twelve varieties of mangoes. That's nice. Passerby: Mahārāja! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jaya! Indian man: (Hindi) Big men, every nation, big. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mahāṁsa: There's Muslims who go to the mosque in the morning just here. There's a mosque here, very big mosque. They go to the mosque for the five o'clock prayer and they come and have a wash and... Prabhupāda: Oh. Very good. But they have no temple here. American Devotee: No. This was all built by the Nizam. *Mahāṁsa: It was originally a zoo and all the animals now it has been moved to some other place. (break*-sound of train coming) Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? It's going to start raining pretty hard. Maybe we could stand under here and he'll come with the car. (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 24, 1976, Hyderabad *Prabhupāda: I have got a sister. She is three years younger than me. So sometimes I chastise her like anything. Because we have the same feeling, she is younger. Seventy*-seven years, younger sister. But the feeling is there, younger. You know I sometimes chastise her. Indian man: Here the feeling is about... We can do more work. It doesn't depend upon the age. In spite of this age we can do as much work as you want. This is what I wanted to emphasize here. Prabhupāda: Because the soul is not dependent on the body. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. If the soul has got energy, he doesn't care for the body. Indian man: I have talked with some brāhmaṇas here about the work that is being done here. They say, "We can't do this type of work. We can do pūjā, sandhyā. We can do kīrtana for some time during the day, but not the whole day. Not whole day. Because we have to feed ourselves also and run from place to place. These days people are not giving us as much charity as they should." Prabhupāda: They can live here and... Indian man: So that is what our people... Prabhupāda: They can eat here. There is no insufficiency. Simply come and manage and eat, as many men as you come here. We shall bring everything. There is no scarcity of food here. Everyone is welcome to engage his full time for Kṛṣṇa's service. I am begging from the whole world, so there will be no scarcity. If somebody refuses other will (indistinct). My field is the whole world and I am a professional beggar. That's all. Indian man: One feeling I have I must express before you, otherwise whom can I express those feelings. The books are very costly. They are very good, but very costly. Prabhupāda: What's that? Indian man: Books. They are very costly for Indians who are very poor. Prabhupāda: When you are here, you can read all the books. Indian man: I personally can do this sir, by coming here. But people would like to purchase these books, but they are very costly. If they can be printed in India... Harikeśa: We're working on printing them in cheaper editions in India. Indian man: That would be wonderful. Prabhupāda: Yes, we are trying for that. Gurukṛpā: Already this *Bhāgavatam*, First Volume has been printed in Delhi for about three times less cost. Prabhupāda: So you are not getting that book? Gurukṛpā: No, in Hyderabad we haven't gotten that. Prabhupāda: Why? Gurukṛpā: I don't know. I'm not in a management position. Mahāṁsa Mahārāja is ordering. Prabhupāda: Get this cheap edition. You can order cheap edition. (break. Paṇḍita chants *Śrī Īśopaniṣad* and Gāyatrī. Prabhupāda speaks in Hindi, quoting Sanskrit ślokas.) [break] Mahāṁsa: They will not part with even one thousand rupees. They're exactly what you described. And also these were the people who are with Śaṅkarācārya who came the first time when you had come here. They were with Śaṅkarācārya. And Hariprasad and some Marwaris were with our movement and these people were on the other side. So there was some conflict at that time. And Śaṅkarācārya came and you... Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya, he says that you are bhagavān. Mahāṁsa: Yes. Also nirākāra. All these things they have been influenced. But practically now they are slowly coming to accept us. There is one Mr. Badanman who was the host of Śaṅkarācārya and for two and a half years he never came here, he never entertained the devotees. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That would be poison. Mahāṁsa: Yes. But then since last six to seven months, he has been completely convinced about us and he has been going around collecting money from other Marwaris for the temple construction. He was simply convinced by seeing the Hare Kṛṣṇa film. And by seeing the Deities he was so much taken aback, and he was so much wonderstruck with the Deities which he saw on the film. Prabhupāda: You were also present then? Mahāṁsa: Not here, before. About six to seven months back. I had shown him the film privately in my room. That was the time when he was completely convinced about it and he started collecting afterwards for us. Now all these people are coming. Because by heart they are all Vaiṣṇavas. All these Marwaris, their Deity is Kṛṣṇa. And there's not a single Kṛṣṇa temple in Hyderabad. So last few days... Prabhupāda: Oh, there is no Kṛṣṇa... *Mahāṁsa: There is no Kṛṣṇa temple. What to speak of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. And their Deity is Kṛṣṇa, most of the Marwaris. So they will now slowly all of them will come. We had a very hard time. This Inani who was wearing the turban. He's the chief of the Marwaris. If he gives five thousand rupees, then all the Marwaris will give five thousand rupees in that Ganj area. Whatever he gives, the others will have to. Prabhupāda: He is the head. Mahāṁsa: He's the head. He himself never gave. And we went a hundred times to him. Prabhupāda: And now he saw the film... Mahāṁsa: Yes. And today also he was there in the morning. Now he will definitely give. You had also previously said that they are very conservative. But once they take it up, then they will take it up very nicely. Prabhupāda: And I also explained, "Nā rūpya, nā rūpya." (laughs) Mahāṁsa: (laughs) Yes, that's exactly what they do. Prabhupāda: Actually that is the whole world going on. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. (indistinct) Whole world. Mahāṁsa: Beg, borrow, steal. Prabhupāda: Huh? Beg, borrow, steal. Bring money and enjoy. They were selected Marwaris. This morning? *Mahāṁsa: Yes, these people are the head of the Marwari community. They don't know how to live. They live in these slums which we saw today. They live all around that area. They are crore*-patis. They have crores of rupees. Prabhupāda: To live very gorgeously is not good. Mahāṁsa: But even their houses are not so clean, shabby. Prabhupāda: Even though they're not... You cannot say not... They are clean. I have seen in Bombay even the poorest man, his house, and a Parsee gentleman, his house. Kitchen habits. A Parsee's kitchen is so nasty. And here you see this poor man's house, they are neat. Their utensils how much cleansed. I had been in Parsee kitchen. All the pots black. Nothing is cleansed. For eating they use this China. So clean or unclean cannot be understood. Simply washed. But so far the kitchen pots, all are... In our also, when it is handled by this European, American devotees, the black. Down, it is black. That should not be black. It must be cleansed. Mahāṁsa: By the heat with these wood, it brings up a lot of soot. Prabhupāda: But it must be cleansed daily. Mahāṁsa: It should not come on your finger if you touch it. That black thing. Prabhupāda: Not even you cannot see black, any black spots. Then it is clean. Otherwise not clean. If there's a single black spot, it is not clean. You can see from this poor class of men, how their utensils are cleansed. Before taking water the jug, the waterpot... You'll like to drink water. In our school days there were sweeper, they were a different quarter. So you like to sit down. So clean. The sweeper, cleansing the toilet, bangi. But when you come to his house, living quarter, oh, it is so clean. The bed, the room, the utensils. And they also will take twice, thrice bath, then they will eat. That is a Hindu culture. Even the sweeper class, lowest class. And I have seen one sweeper class who were in Allahabad, regularly worshiping Deity. Very nice worship. Mahāṁsa: So a Vaiṣṇava then... *Prabhupāda: They took initiation from the Vṛndāvana Goswami and they follow strictly rules and regulations. Cleanliness is very essential. In English also it is said cleanliness is next to Godliness. Everything should be, especially temple. It will attract them. And we are singing daily, śrī*-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau **. Tat-mandira-mārjana. Mārjana means cleanliness. And want of cleanliness means laziness. If you are lazy you cannot keep clean. "Ah, let me sleep for the time being." That is mode of ignorance. Tamo-guṇa. So we have to conquer over rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ [SB 1.2.19]. Then there is question of coming to the platform, śuddha, sāttvika. Sattvaṁ viśuddhaṁ vasudeva-śabditam. Where is this verse? In Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Pradyumna: Sattvaṁ viśuddhaṁ vasudeva-śabditam. *Prabhupāda: Maybe Fourth Chapter, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. *Pradyumna: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta was quoted? Ādi-līlā? Prabhupāda: Mm. Mahāṁsa: Shall I go and bring the agreement? Prabhupāda: Yes. The Western world is very busy manufacturing this machine. And they are thinking this is advancement of civilization. Hari-śauri: Technology. Prabhupāda: That is not advancement. Hari-śauri: They can't see any use for philosophy and fine arts any more. Prabhupāda: Because they do not know what is soul. They do not know what is missing. Why the body is useless. They do not cultivate... The most important thing they do not cultivate. This man was so important one second before. Now the whole body is useless. It has to be thrown away. They do not give attention even to this. How he becomes... Second before he was Mr. Churchill or Mr. such and such, very important man. All men showing respect. And now he is useless. If somebody kicks on his face nobody will say. Out of sentiment they protest, but the man will not protest. Hari-śauri: They stick him in the ground. Put him in a box. *Prabhupāda: But why this happened, this why question does not come. They are so dull. For that thing missing. And these rascal scientists will theorize, the blood becomes white, this becomes that, that becomes that. And do it. If the blood has become white then make it red. Mix some color or chemical and bring him to life. "No, the life*-giving substance is lost." Oh, life-giving substance is not lost. So many germs are coming. Why do you say the life-giving substance is lost? It is there. They do not consider all these things. If matter is life-giving substance, matter is there. Decomposed matter is also matter. Just like stool, a decomposed remnants of foodstuff. That is also matter. Stool is also matter. The same (indistinct) is there. The earth is there, the water is there, the heat is there. What is the loss there? And actually you see from this matter, from the stool so many worms are coming out. How do you say that the life-giving matter is missing? That you cannot explain. Still they will not accept that the soul is gone. That individual soul is gone. This is their intelligence. Give me that stamp. So before... (end) *Room Conversationwith Paëòita from Tirupatiand Government Minister-*-August 24, 1976, Hyderabad *Prabhupāda: Nowadays people are taking to the (indistinct) of industry. But we don't find in Bhagavad*-gītā, there is any suggestion for industry. Kṛṣṇa said... It started? Hari-śauri: It's recording. Prabhupāda: No no, you stop this. Hari-śauri: You want to play this tape back? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] That's nice. *Paṇḍita: So until the father makes one (indistinct) of Śrī Vaiṣṇava... And the śaraṇāgati makes them assured of mukti. So kṛta*-kṛtya. Now, the later part of life, (Sanskrit). (Hindi)... of Rāmānuja school. This Rāmānuja school has been fortified by his works, so many works on Vedānta, like (Sanskrit names of books) These are all the major Vedānta works he has composed. All these works I have sat before a guru and studied for eight years at Śrī Raṅgam. My ācārya has been a great scholar in Vedānta and tarka, who was lecturer in... Prabhupāda: I know, Rāmānuja sampradāya, they are very learned scholars. I know that. Paṇḍita: And they are very particular about ācaraṇas also, more than... Prabhupāda: Sadācāra. Paṇḍita: Ha. Sadācāra. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Paṇḍita: And I have been given guidance by these ācāryas to stick to this paramparā sampradāya ācāra. So I belong to this sahogala(?) order. I have taken initiation from this guru, as well as Vedantic knowledge from another guru. I am practicing my ācāra, sampradāya ācāra very strictly in that order. As far as I see, there is... Without disturbing this set*-up, I can do service, I think. Is it not? Prabhupāda: No, our mission is to spread Kṛṣṇa's mission. That's all. *Paṇḍita: Mission. That's all. We need not change the other set*-up need not. Necessity is not there. *Prabhupāda: No. We have got already set up, what Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. So our business is how to teach people to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. *Paṇḍita: Now, this Bhagavad*-gītā, this Śrī Bhāṣya of Rāmānuja, and commentary on which is Śruta-prakāśikā, composed by one Sudarśana Suri... He was later, about hundred years later than Rāmānuja. He has commented on Śrī Bhāṣya. These works are the standard works, for (indistinct). Actually it is the foundation over which the superstructure is constructed by Vedānta-deśika. Prabhupāda: You see, we have got different philosophical... Ultimately the conclusion is how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Paṇḍita: That is it. *Prabhupāda: So the Western countries, their brain is not so sharp to clearly understand the difference between viśiṣṭādvaita, advaita*-dvaita, dvaitādvaita, or advaita. (laughs) Their brain does not allow to think very deeply about... So we are simply teaching them, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. That includes all philosophy. In this way we are preaching all over the world and there is little response. We are selling our books very nicely. So our main purpose is to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our main... So what is your idea now. How you want to utilize your learning about Vaiṣṇava philosophy? Yes. Yes. How you want to do it? Paṇḍita: Now, this is my idea. That knowledge that I have must be utilized in this manner. It can be utilized in this manner. You are creating so many disciples. They are interested in learning *Gītā* and the philosophy and other things. Serious students who are interested in philosophy, who would like to go sit and... Prabhupāda: You'll find hardly anyone interested in philosophy nowadays. They are interested in technology. In Western countries the universities are closing philosophical class. No student is coming. This is the position. Paṇḍita: I came for philosophy, even in this age. *Prabhupāda: No, no, your case is different. But generally people they are losing interest in philosophy because they are becoming śūdras. Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ. They are after some job to get money. So they see that "What I shall get by learning philosophy? Let me learn technology. I'll get a good job and good money and enjoy life." This is... Paṇḍita: That is general trend. Of course, I know. Prabhupāda: Yes. In India also the same thing. Paṇḍita: Yes, yes. I was working in Bombay as a stenographer in a private company. In 1964 I resigned my job after reading Vivekananda's works. I'll tell you about some of my own history. Afterwards I went and joined the... I went and stayed in Hrishikesh Shivananda āśrama for two months, and I wanted to study this philosophy, etc., in the originals. But at Shivananda āśrama it was not... Prabhupāda: They have no idea. *Paṇḍita: No facility. So I left there. I came all the way, decided to select a place for myself. After touring Mathurā, Vṛndāvana, all these places, Kāśī, I came to Lucknow. In Lucknow Ramakrishna Mission I had been to. There was one Gauda Shivananda. He discussed with me, and he directed me to Calcutta. Then I went to Calcutta, and when I went to Calcutta, that Swami Gambhirananda, who is the general secretary now, was there. He asked me to join the Mission. I joined Ramakrishna Mission. I was in Ramakrishna Mission in Calcutta for one year. And I was taking care of their printing section, this proof*-reading, editing, etc., Ramakrishna Vivekananda literature for one year. But still, my idea of going to the original texts of this Vedānta commentary etc., was not fulfilled. So I was not satisfied. Then I left that Ramakrishna Mission and traveled all the way from Calcutta to Kerala. There is another āśrama at Kerala, Parlika near Trichu, where there was one Swami Purnananda Tirtha who used to come to Bombay every year for giving lectures. So I went to his āśrama. I knew of that. And there I started studying this Śaṅkara Bhāṣya, Gītā Bhāṣya and Sūtra Bhāṣya for six months under one Swami Atmananda, who is no more, who has written Śaṅkara's words, the words, in his own words, teachings in his own words. Bhavan's Journal has published and the four yogas and so on and so forth, such books. He was a disciple of Swami Ramadasa of Kanaiḥ. So after six months that was also not satisfying to me. I then came to Śrī Raṅgam. There I went to a Vaiṣṇava ācārya. He said, first you equip yourself with the fundamental śāstras of tarka, vyakāraṇa, and mīmāṁsā. Then come to Vedānta. Then, later on, in Sanskrit College I went and studied for two and a half years this fundamentals of Vedānta, tarka, vyakāraṇa, mīmāṁsā, and then I came to Śrī Raṅgam back and studied Vedānta. There for eight years I studied Vedānta. Say in all twelve years. Ten years. Another two years... I have been in Tirupati for the past two years, specializing in the higher texts of Mīmāṁsā. (pause) Prabhupāda: Then? Paṇḍita: So this is how for the past twelve years I have been going in search of this sources from where I can get all this knowledge, and after much roaming about, I have got this knowledge. So I would like to put it to proper use. I would like to teach it to so many people who are interested in it. At least... Prabhupāda: So that opportunity you'll get in our mission. Paṇḍita: That is how I want to serve. Prabhupāda: That opportunity you'll get. So now give him some resting place just now. And you take some of our books and go on. Then, after taking my meals, I shall come. Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this Minister Rao, he's just arrived. Prabhupāda: Just now? So... Hari-śauri: What shall I do? Ask him to wait or...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: It's ten minutes before prasādam. Prabhupāda: Call him. Call him. Paṇḍita: I shall wait till you finish your meals. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you can take in your room. Give him some plate. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Minister: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Take prasādam. You give (Hindi) So you have brought? So if you kindly wait, then I can finish my meals. Then I shall talk. Minister: Oh, yes. We will go. We have come here just to have your darśana. Prabhupāda: No, I have to talk with you something. So if you kindly wait... Minister: I will wait. Prabhupāda: Then give him some place. Give him some book. He may read it. Minister: I'll sit for a while. Prabhupāda: Yes. Minister: In the evening I am coming to six o'clock. Devotee (1): Seven o'clock. *Minister: Seven*-thirty, plane takes off, I think. Devotee (1): Yes, but Prabhupāda going to the... Before one hour. Minister: Before one hour? Prabhupāda: So I heard that you were coming at 4:30. Minister: Five o'clock, they said, because I won't be able to come here. That is why I thought that now I'll just go and have your darśana and take your program of Delhi, whenever you're going to be. Now I've become celā of yours. (laughs) Prabhupāda: I have asked your wife and children to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra before Bālajī as much time as possible. Minister: As many times as possible. Prabhupāda: So she has told you? Minister: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Minister: They're doing that. *Prabhupāda: It is a great fortune that Bālajī is there in your home. Take full advantage and simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simple. Then everything will come automatically. Buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. Minister: So when shall we meet? Prabhupāda: As you like. Minister: I'll come to Delhi. Prabhupāda: So if you are coming to the airport, then we shall talk further. That all. Thank you very much. You have taken little prasādam? Minister: Yes, I have. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (end) *Meeting with Endowments Commissioner-*-August 24, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: But we are so... You can keep it there now. Keep. So you do not believe in these things, that there is Bhagavān and Bhagavān comes, He has got a mission. Do you believe in these things? Frankly speaking, do you believe in these things? Minister: We do. We do believe. *Prabhupāda: Then you must act according to His mission. According to His mission. The mission is yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. When we are engaged in glānir dharma, which is not dharma. Cheating. Glānir, glānir. What is the glānir? Glānir means which is abominable. Yes. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. So what is that glānir? Glānir means, dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, there is... Yamarāja said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma cannot be manufactured by any man. You have got Sixth Canto? Harikeśa: Sixth Canto, Third Chapter, 19th verse. *Prabhupāda: Yes, find this verse. Yamarāja said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Even the demigods, they cannot manufacture dharma. Harikeśa: *Prabhupāda: Nobody can. This is the principle. So when so many rascal dharma is introduced, that is dharmasya glāniḥ. So we must know this. Then we can understand what is the mission of Bhagavān. When rascals are introducing so*-called so many dharmas, that is dharmasya glāniḥ. Do you accept or not? Minister: Yes, we accept. *Prabhupāda: Therefore, Bhagavān concludes at the end, "You rascal, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]." This is dharma. To surrender to the Lord. That is dharma. In another place, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. Without this, all cheating. If there is no bhakti, surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all these kind of dharmas, they're all cheating. Therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. On this, Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented, atra mokṣa vañca api nirastam.(?) Dharma artha kāma mokṣa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90]. So according to this principle, they're all cheating. So-called religious system, artha, economic development, sense gratification. Just like that, we have created so many social dharmas. Saṁsāra-dharma, gṛhastha-dharma, this dharma, that dharma. So in that way, they're all-cheating. Therefore, our request is that yajñārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. In the Bālajī's temple, mostly poor cultivators. I have seen, they go. And they want to give something to the Lord. Yajñārthe. So the karmīs, they're advised, yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad arpaṇam. "Give me." So these karmīs, somehow or other, by their great fortune, they're giving something to the Lord. Yajñārthe. That money should not be utilized for any other purpose. That is our message. It must be utilized for the purpose to fulfill the mission of the Lord. Mission of the Lord is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. How people can be trained up to give up all these nonsensical type of dharma, and how to become a devotee of Lord. For this purpose this money should be spent. Then it will be all right. Minister: Mostly it is utilized for that. Almost completely. Only one or two is mere what is called charity. The industry, there's been a wrong impression that we are working directly with industry. *Prabhupāda: No, no. That is... It should be utilized simply for the purpose of awakening the devotional, what is called*-inspiration. For no other purpose. Just like in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti, nitya-siddha. This is our natural... Just like these Europeans and Americans, they have become Kṛṣṇa bhaktas. So what business they had to do with Kṛṣṇa? They're coming from Christian family, Jewish families, or some of them Mohammedan family. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṇa? They haven't got to do anything with Kṛṣṇa. So how they have become a Kṛṣṇa bhakta? Even the... Just like he is coming from Parsee family, he is coming from Jewish family, he is coming from Christian family, he is coming from Europe, he is coming from America. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṇa? We Indians or Hindus, we may have some concern with Kṛṣṇa, but what they have got? They haven't got anything to do with Kṛṣṇa. Now you pay them one lakh of rupees and ask them, "You become again Christian. You become again Parsee." Just see. Make them again Christian. Practical. These are young boys. You ask them, that "I'll give you good girl, I'll give you good money. You give up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness-come here." Ask them, make a test. They'll refuse, they'll kick out. How they have become? Therefore it is a fact, as it is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, kṛṣṇa-bhakti nitya-siddha. Everyone has got Kṛṣṇa bhakti eternally. It is not artificial. They have not become Kṛṣṇa bhakta artificially. It is the eternal link that has been awakened. Minister: There's no doubt of that, Swamiji. Let us say there are hundred leprosy patients. There are one thousand orphans. We put them there, give them food, and make them pray to Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Well, you are... They are mistaken. But if you have to awaken Kṛṣṇa bhakti, why you go to the lepers? Minister: No, they have come here. They are all there in the temple. They are not allowing others to pray properly. They are all, one thousand... In the past... *Prabhupāda: We have no objection, because our principle is kṛṣṇa*-bhakti nitya-siddha. So Kṛṣṇa bhakti is there in everyone. So leper and non-leper. Just like our Vivekananda, he took up daridra-nārāyaṇa. This is an absurd proposition. Nārāyaṇa is never daridra. But if you put this argument, that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, so if Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, why you take up only daridra-nārāyaṇa? Why not dhanī-nārāyaṇa also? If you have got so broad vision that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, therefore we see everyone, so why you particularly take the daridra-nārāyaṇa? Similarly, Kṛṣṇa bhakti is everywhere. It is in the leper or non-leper. So why should we take particularly the lepers? So that is outwardly a social service that they are taking care of the leper. So if that vision it will not be right. Kṛṣṇa bhakti even requires, even a karmī like big, big owner of factories, he's more diseased than the leper. Because he has no Kṛṣṇa bhakti. So we have to take care of the leper and the richest man also if he has no Kṛṣṇa bhakti. Minister: That also. That also. Prabhupāda: No, therefore we should not make any distinction that only the lepers will be taken care of. Minister: (Hindi) a rich man or somebody comes, prays... Prabhupāda: Everyone is more than leper. Minister: He takes prasāda in the temple, he goes. But this man is not allowed. He can't come. Therefore God goes to him. *Prabhupāda: We have to take... You cannot manufacture where God goes. You should have to take lesson from God. That is one thing. If we manufacture ideas, that will never be successful. That will never be successful. Don't manufacture ideas. If you want to be servant of God, you must take instruction from God. That is wanted. You cannot manufacture idea that "God wants this." So first of all try to understand what is God's mission. God's mission is, it is clearly said, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. So, more or less, everyone is entangled with this glānir dharma. They have manufactured. Just like the demigod worship. This is a glānir dharma. Kṛṣṇa says sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. And Kṛṣṇa clearly says kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. So if you want to utilize, people are giving in good faith, Bālajī, Kṛṣṇa. Their hard-earned money, whatever we are giving something. Yajña, that is wanted. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. That money should not be utilized for any other purpose except yajña. First of all, you have to decide like that. Then we can give you direction. First of all, you have to decide that this money, not a single farthing should be spent for any other purpose than performing yajña. Then we can give you right direction. And if you have plan to utilize this money for any other purpose, that is not Kṛṣṇa's mission. That is your mission. So first of all you have to decide whether you are going to execute Kṛṣṇa's mission or your mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission is very clearly defined. It is there, everything is declared there in the Bhagavad-gītā. We can do it very nicely. But if you want to do any other mission, then you can do. You are government, you are in power, you can do that. But that will not be pleasing to Kṛṣṇa. He has got a mission. That is stated. Dharmasya glānir bhavati. So any dharma, so-called dharma, which does not awaken their Kṛṣṇa consciousness is glāniḥ. Kṛṣṇa does not want that. If you're against the will of Kṛṣṇa, against the mission of Kṛṣṇa, if you want to do something, you can do. People are doing so many things. That is also mentioned by Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: Iti te jñānam... Prabhupāda: No. That one verse is that one does not... Kṛṣṇa's mission is that "Surrender unto Me." Now who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa? That is stated by Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is their punishment. Harikeśa: "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence into various demoniac species of life." Prabhupāda: And next verse? Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: So this is my request, that our money... There is nothing our money. Everything Kṛṣṇa's. But we are thinking. Because we are asuric. So asuras think like that. Just like Kaṁsa, Hiraṇyakaśipu. "Ha!" Rāvaṇa. "Ha! What is Rāma?" That is asura's. They think like that, and that is asuric. But otherwise īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore yajña is advised. The sooner you hand over Kṛṣṇa's property to Kṛṣṇa, it is good for you. *Minister: Swamiji we are karmī*-yogīs. We start the day with surrendering to God and asking Him to show us the way. Beyond that, I don't know what our duty... *Prabhupāda: But a karma*-yogī, why you should take Kṛṣṇa's money for karma? Minister: For what? (indistinct) That is for... Prabhupāda: That is the... Minister: It is not used. As you have correctly said, that way only it is used. *Prabhupāda: No, the first thing is that if you decide that Kṛṣṇa's money should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's mission, so Kṛṣṇa's mission is this, that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. You have to bring them to the sense of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And there is a process. You cannot manufacture that process. You have to take the process from Kṛṣṇa. That Kṛṣṇa says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things. You have to teach people how he can think of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā. Then the mission is there. That is Kṛṣṇa also. Kṛṣṇa says, Minister: No, for a country suffering from multiplicity of gods, Hinduism, you are doing a very great service, asking them to concentrate on Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is only God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Minister: How you are enlightening them, it is a very great service. No doubt about that. And you are making the man, the human being a servant of that (indistinct). Prabhupāda: This is not my manufacture. Śāstra says kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Minister: They have said so many things in the name of śāstra. They have said so many things in the name of śāstra. That you are making it one is very good. *Prabhupāda: No, those who are approved śāstra is accepted by the ācāryas. Śāstra, which is accepted by the ācārya, that is śāstra. You cannot make. As you cannot manufacture religion, you cannot manufacture śāstras. Approved by the ācāryas. Ācāryopāsanam. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says also that you should know from the ācārya. Everyone. They are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā with the purpose of killing Kṛṣṇa. Everyone. The politicians, the scholars, the rascals, and everyone. The main purpose is how to kill Kṛṣṇa. In Bombay I have got a very big friend, you know him. I do not wish to disclose his name. He has set aside ten lakhs of rupees for preaching Gītā. But he wants Gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Rāma without Sītā. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā. Rāma will remain alone. So take away Gītā and cut Kṛṣṇa. But I cannot make any compromise I shall... My life is ended, now eighty-one. I do not... But so long I shall live I shall make no compromise, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Dṛḍha-vrata. And that is a fact. Why shall I mislead people? They are searching after God, what is God. Here is God. Why don't you take it. See His activities. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ. Tally with the formula of God, you see Kṛṣṇa is God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. So whatever teeny effort I have got, I shall try to establish temples of Kṛṣṇa all over the world with my teeny income. I have got book sales. Kṛṣṇa has given me very good chance. It is beyond any dream. We are selling books sixty thousand dollars daily. Indian man: Six lakhs about. Indian man: Thirty thousand dollars. Indian man: Sixty thousand dollars. Indian man: Yes daily. Prabhupāda: And we are known the topmost publisher of religious and philosophical books in the world. And we are approved, our books are approved by the greatest learned scholars of all universities. Because they are seeing a new light. No hodgepodge philosophy. India also, wherever we are going. Now within how many days? Within a month. Prabhaviṣṇu: Yes, one month, in Uttar Pradesh... Prabhupāda: He has got seventy standing orders. Our books are, say eighty. So eighty books, say, average five dollars. So eighty books, five dollars means... Prabhaviṣṇu: Four hundred dollars. Prabhupāda: Four hundred dollars. Such seventy orders. He has secured order in one month, seventy orders. In one place. Standing orders. "Whatever is published give us, and then others, when they will be published, send also." They have not seen even the books. Indian man: This is practical pracāra, giving books. Prabhupāda: No librarian, no university, no scholar, no professor is refusing. As soon as we go, "Oh, yes, bring. We shall take." So I am bringing money from the foreign countries by my selling books, and they are criticizing me that I am C.I.A. Just see the fun. And there is nobody to give me protection. Indian man: Not Lord giving protection? (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, Lord, giving, giving. That I am confident. Because they are envious, "How Bhaktivedanta Swami is getting so much money? He's paying crores and crores. There must be some political..." As they are getting from Russia. But actually, I am selling. I am working night, writing these books, and these boys are helping me to sell it. I am getting enough money to spend it. What is my fault? For Kṛṣṇa's sake we have sacrificed everything, our life and everything and Kṛṣṇa is giving us money and we are spending it and they are criticizing in the Parliament. This is my misfortune. I don't take it as misfortune. Because asuras are always there. Even Kṛṣṇa's time. Minister: They are criticizing, but not... Prabhupāda: Because we are getting so much money. For this temple we have spent... ten lakhs? Mahāṁsa: Twelve lakhs. Prabhupāda: Twelve lakhs. So by selling my books. And I have sent him more than four lakhs, five lakhs from foreign countries. This is my fault. Similarly, in Bombay we are spending every month seven lakhs regularly. That is coming from foreign countries. And they are thinking that I'm taking bribe and acting as C.I.A. And C.I.A. have become Vaiṣṇavas with long śikhā and giving up all facilities of life and they are dancing with the C.I.A. People have no common sense that C.I.A. agent could stay in a nice hotel and enjoy life. Why so much vairāgya? Even my Godbrothers said that American government has given me two crores of rupees. Now we are planning to have a temple in Māyāpura where... What is, what is the economic estimates, where we shall spend how much money monthly? Harikeśa: Two hundred thousand dollars monthly. Prabhupāda: Two hundred thousand dollars monthly. [break] Nobody will be able to check it. He'll go on. That is Kṛṣṇa. Here is dictaphone. I work at night. I get up at half past twelve, one, and I write books. And daytime I'm engaged. And daily either ten page, twenty page written, that is sent to Los Angeles. You have seen our press? And they take care. How our books printed, have you got that film? Mahāṁsa: I have it in 16 mm only. Yes. Prabhupāda: Why don't you show? Mahāṁsa: Just now? Prabhupāda: Yes. It will take little ... Mahāṁsa: I don't have a Fairchild. I have it in 16 mm film. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But the Press... Mahāṁsa: Yes, the Press film. Prabhupāda: You can show, they'll be... How in the American industrial process we are printing our books. I made the Book Trust, sixty thousand dollars they are selling. So as author, I could have derived from them at least six thousand, ten percent minimum. Six thousand dollars per day. Six thousand dollars means sixty thousand rupees. That could have been my daily income. But I take little khicuḍi from them, that's all. (Harikeśa laughing) Indian man: Two crores per year, it comes to... Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Our farming projects, very successful. Now here Badrukaji is also giving us some land. (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Vāsughoṣa. *Prabhupāda: So we have got big program. Any amount of money you bring to us, we shall spend it immediately. (pause) (kīrtana in background) [break] There is a logic, andha*-paṅgu-nyāya. One man is blind. Another man is lame. Both are useless. When they combined together the lame man was taken by the blind man. So the lame man has got eyes, he was giving direction, "Go this way." So both their work was done. So I say that India is lame and America is blind. Let us combine together. Then we can give a great culture for the benefit of the whole human society. India has no money-lame. And they have got money but they have no knowledge. So let us combine together. This is logic. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya. So by this cooperation they have... When I was in India I published three parts of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam with great difficulty. And now since I have gone there I am publishing every month a book. So on account of their cooperation we are able to publish so many books and organize the sale all over the world. But it is true that this culture is very much welcome all over the world. That is happening. That is real execution of the mission of Kṛṣṇa. Not to keep Kṛṣṇa within the boundaries of certain areas. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. He's the father of all living entities. They should know it. We have got many other films also. How we are giving protection to the cows in different farms, how we are getting sumptuous milk. Two years ago there was an article in the Navabhārata Times in Delhi, big article, one full page, first page. And the heading was that New Vrindaban (Hindi). They gave this heading. And they gave all details how to use the land New Vrindaban in Virginia, we have got one thousand acre of land and they are utilizing it. How they are living peacefully. So we want to make an example here with this six hundred acres of land, if it is given to us. Kṛṣṇa's formula is there. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Produce sufficient quantity of anna. Everyone will be satisfied. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa never says by factory bhavanti bhūtāni. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ yajñād bhavati parjanyo yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. This formula should be... That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission, what to speak of Kṛṣṇa's mission (Hindi). Kṛṣṇa to carry personally, (indistinct), aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. (Hindi) Kṛṣṇa nirākāra. He's personally speaking. And Vyāsadeva writes bhagavān uvāca. (Hindi) Indian man: (indistinct) [break] Prabhupāda: Idaṁ jñānam ākhyātam? Harikeśa: Iti te jñānam ākhyātam. Prabhupāda: Iti te jñānam ākhyātam... Harikeśa: Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā. I'll get it. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has explained everything, all confidential. Now consider about it, think about it, and do whatever you like Yathecchasi tathā. The liberty is there. Whatever you like you can do. Kṛṣṇa will not force. He can force, but He does not interfere with little liberty. Then he becomes stone. Living entity has got little liberty because he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. When Arjuna was decided, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā. Kṛṣṇa gave him liberty. Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. But he voluntarily accepted, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is real religion. Harikeśa: "Arjuna said: My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real... That is translated in Bengali, Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is religion. They are mahātmās. Previous verse? Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: That is mahātmā. This is mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha [Bg. 9.13]. Find out this... *Harikeśa: Daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya*-manaso jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam. Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Harikeśa: Vāsughoṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This gentleman is the head of the Marwari community, Mr. Dinami (?). They only speak Hindi. They would like to speak to you but they don't understand English. *Prabhupāda: No, I can, (Hindi) [break] (Unless) one is enthused, he cannot preach. It is not possible. I went there when I was seventy years old. I was sitting in Vṛndāvana. So I thought that my Guru Mahārāja wanted me, Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted me... So in this old age let me try. (indistinct). But by Kṛṣṇa's grace it is becoming successful. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam [Bg. 10.10]. So there is good field for propagating this cult. See our young men they are... (Hindi) Juhu mai beef(?) shop (Hindi) And I inquired some of the Hindu boys that "Do you eat meat?" So they began to smile, then they accepted. (Hindi) [break] ...platform is finished. (Hindi) Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. Yathecchasi, yathā icchasi tathā kuru. Minister: No, we are agreed (?) to that. There is actually no difference at all than what you are saying. As a matter of fact government is..., that's what I said, they have started their own society, society of Kṛṣṇa bhaktas. (indistinct) This country, our country, this country itself, it is such a great service. Prabhupāda: Whole world will accept. Minister: This country itself is such a great service. It will require miracles. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) We can cooperate. *Minister: Unless you are so single*-minded it can't be. Therefore you say there is no compromise. Otherwise if there are compromises, there will be adjustments, it will lead to dilution. We understand. *Prabhupāda: Compromise (Hindi). These boys when they come for initiation, no compromise. You have to do this. No illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication. Even up to smoking cigarettes or drinking tea. No gambling. If you accept, then you become my disciple. They accept. No compromise. Minister: (indistinct) ...because you are establishing a center here. That will be very good. Prabhupāda: We are meant for this purpose, coordination, but if you take our... You have taken prasāda? Minister: Yes, we did. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...and he is such a big man that he goes above the ācāryas. Ati*-buddhi. Ati-buddhi galaya dekhe. (?) If one is overintelligent, hang him. That is a Bengali saying. Ati-buddhi galaya dekhe (?). If one is unnecessarily overintelligent, just hang him with a rope in the neck. He is ati-buddhi. Anyway, he was intelligent to purchase. Devotee: (aside:) He thought that it would explain... Prabhupāda: You have to read the subject matter. Even if he thinks that it is written by Bopadeva, such a great knowledge, one has to read. Such great knowledge is not possible by Bopadeva and unless... He is incarnation of God, Vyāsadeva. It is said... (indistinct) Not this. (indistinct) Mahāṁsa: Which volume do you want, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Second volume. Varīyān eṣa... Harikeśa: Second Canto, Part One, verse one. Prabhupāda: Find out this. Varīyān eṣa... Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Find out that verse when he says, "I have heard it from my father." Pariniṣṭhito 'pi nairguṇya. The verse begins pariniṣṭhito 'pi nairguṇya. Harikeśa: Idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma? Idaṁ bhāgavatam... Prabhupāda: No no, before that. Pariniṣṭhito 'pi. The word begins with pariniṣṭhito. Idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma. No? Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. *Harikeśa: "At the end of the Dvāpara*-yuga, I studied this great supplement of Vedic literature of the name Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is equal to all the Vedas, from my father, Śrīla Dvaipāyana Vyāsadeva." Prabhupāda: That's right. And these rascals say Bopadeva. The speaker of *Bhāgavatam*, he says that "I learned it from my father." His father is Vyāsadeva. And these rascals say Bopadeva. Just see. And they are posted in big post. With such nonsense knowledge, they are posted in big post. He does not know who is the author of Bhāgavata. Here it is distinctly said, "I learned it from my father." So his father is Vyāsadeva. You take this verse. If anyone says... So Śukadeva Gosvāmī is the speaker of Bhāgavata, he's admitting that "I've learned it from my father." And where the Bopadeva comes? Is that right? Devotees: Yes, right. Devotee: I was trying, that if I began to oppose him then he would not take the book. Prabhupāda: No, no. Scholarly. Just present that here is the... Śukadeva Gosvāmī is the speaker of *Bhāgavatam*. He says "I learned it from my father." And who is his father? Bopadeva or Vyāsadeva? This is going on. That is finished. (indistinct) Mahāṁsa: Yes. Only two of them. One of them is here but he was not at home and the other one is out of station. So we'll get their signature when they come. Prabhupāda: Two of them have signed. *Mahāṁsa: Yes. Hariprasad and Shrinivas, they have both signed. And Shri Krishnan*-dyuta, he's here but he was not at home or something. Prabhupāda: He'll sign? Mahāṁsa: Yes. He will do whatever Hariprasad, says and Omkar Lal is the youngest brother, so he will also sign. Shall I keep this or would you like to keep it here? Prabhupāda: As you like. You can keep it. Mahāṁsa: I'll lock it up. Prabhupāda: Where is that? (pause) Prabhaviṣṇu: When I speak to some of these archaeologists that I meet, these professors, I ask them do they believe in the historical validity of this *Mahābhārata* and *Bhāgavatam*, and they say, "Personally, I believe, but officially we have to follow the archaeology, the techniques of measuring the time." So they have two faces, one for official life and one for personal life. Prabhupāda: Duplicity. Duplicity. Prabhaviṣṇu: Yes. But there are some of them that are trying to prove also that the *Mahābhārata* was historical. Prabhupāda: *Mahābhārata*. That very name suggests history. Bigger India. Mahā means bigger, and Bhārata means India. Where is Mahāṁsa? *Prabhaviṣṇu: There is one verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā, in Chapter Seven, Prabhupāda: You know that? There are so many rascals, they say, "I'm God." You know that? That is the problem. If somebody says, "I am God," is it a fact? But he says like that. He's such a rascal. That is the point. Devotee: In spite of all falsehood, people accept him as God. Prabhupāda: They accept. Devotee: (indistinct) Vāsughoṣa: This man has come to read the Oriya book. He can read Oriya. So... He wanted someone to translate. They have come. Prabhupāda: Where is that Oriya book? Harikeśa: The one Gargamuni... Vāsughoṣa: Yes. Orissan language, Orissan language. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Indian man: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Do you think that realization is good? If anyone realizes that he is God? Do you think he has actually realized anything? Indian man: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is the proof? Everyone can say, "I am God," but where is the proof? He must act like God. If somebody says, "I am the richest man," simply this statement will do, or we must see how he is rich? (pause) Hm. Give him. Indian man: (indistinct) Founder Śrī Śrīmad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: Hm, (indistinct). Indian man: (indistinct) ...founder Śrī Śrīmad... (end) *Room Conversation-*-August 25, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: I am sitting in this room and if by force you drive me away, I shall go to another room. Because I'll have another room. But because you have forcibly driven me away you are criminal. Similarly, a living entity is ordained to live in a certain body for a certain period. If you kill, that is the interference with his staying there. You are criminal. Indian man: Yes, that is true. Prabhupāda: The soul is never killed. Never killed. But because you have forcibly driven away from that body, you become criminal. That is the philosophy. Indian man: Yes. Now, assuming... Prabhupāda: So you cannot do that. Indian man: Assuming that, everyone... Prabhupāda: Not assuming. This is the fact. (laughter) Indian man: No, assuming this end. I am putting a question. Every man who took part in the Kurukṣetra war, assuming that they are to be killed, they are destined to be killed. Then when they are killed, then Kṛṣṇa's argument is the soul, the body perishes but the soul is eternal. Prabhupāda: Soul is eternal... Indian man: ...the soul. How you are reconciling it if you say that the... I mean what a man is different from Kṛṣṇa. Or ātmā is different from Paramātmā. If you say that, then how do you say that ātmā is eternal? And what is the fate of the ātmā? Prabhupāda: No, ātmā is eternal. That is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Why don't you understand? Ātmā is eternal, God is eternal. But the difference is, next line, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That one ātmā, God, He is maintaining others, and the others are being maintained. So how you can make equal the maintainer and the maintained? First of all, try to understand. Indian man: The question is, even if you take it, advaita philosophy also there is a, the ātmā has to go and merge with the Paramātmā, but they didn't say that they're equal. I don't think even the advaita philosophy also... Prabhupāda: How they can be equal? Indian man: They cannot be, cannot be. Prabhupāda: Cannot be, yes. But they say equal. Indian man: No. They don't say that equal. Prabhupāda: They say like that. Indian Devotee: The Barishus(?) recently said that. Indian man: Don't take it from one sentence and try to enlarge it. Take it in the context. Indian Devotee: They always say this. *Prabhupāda: I do not hear. You hear, he hears. If he says something else... That... This is therefore Caitanya's philosophy is acintya*-bhedābheda, that as ātmā, they're equal. Ātmā. But one is Paramātmā, because He is maintainer. Therefore... Indian man: Yes. All the creation, the world. It is one way out of that Paramātmā. Prabhupāda: Paramātmā. So therefore Paramātmā is the Supreme, and he is subordinate. So how the Supreme and subordinate can be equal? Indian man: No, they can never be equal. Never be equal and never and... No philosophy, even any branch of philosophy does not say that a human being is equal to.... Prabhupāda: No, their philosophy is, as you say, that this subordinate ātmā has forgotten that he is Paramātmā. Indian man (2): Yes, it is a main point. The seeker has forgotten that he is the sought. Indian man: He has forgotten means simply the potential that you have within you, you have to realize it and come closer to the Paramātmā. That is what it means... Prabhupāda: If you have got the potency to become Paramātmā, then how you became ātmā? Indian man: The potential to come near to Paramātmā. Prabhupāda: Near, that is one thing. You are near to me. That means we are not equal. You are a separate person, I am a separate person. Indian man: But even what has been told by him, he is Veda, Vedāntī, anybody, he doesn't come to ātmā is going to Paramātmā. He never says that. That mathematic equation... Indian man (2): They say that the ātmā has forgotten. They say that ātmā has come into the clutches of the māyā. When you get rid of the māyā you become Paramātmā. Indian man: That is not... You don't become Paramātmā. You become Paramātmā means that... You don't understand Paramātmā. Paramātmā is the Supreme, Supreme soul. How can you become... Prabhupāda: Then you have to accept Paramātmā and ātmā different. Indian man: Different, that is true. *Prabhupāda: Then dvaita*-vāda. Where is advaita? Indian man: Even dvaita does not, something different from advaitam. In this particular fundamental. But even advaitam does not say that ātmā is equal to Paramātmā. He never says that. You have māyā. Māyā will be field to you and that you get rid of that māyā and you try to elevate your soul to the ātmā. And you come, go to the Paramātmā. *Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of spiritual lesson. Because that is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā. Everyone of us, we are identifying with this body. Just like if somebody asks what you are, "I am Mr. such and such, I am Indian, I am this, I am that." He is giving identification of the body. But that he is not. He's not this body. That is self-realization. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]-two things-deha, this body, and asmin dehe, there is dehinaḥ, the owner of the body. That is the beginning of spiritual education. Because generally almost 99.9% people, they are thinking that I am this body. Indian man: Well, that is true, that is... Prabhupāda: So that is another thing. Indian man: That attachment to the... Prabhupāda: Yes. That attachment or no attachment, he is different from the body. That is the first lesson of spiritual education, that one has to understand that he is not the body. That is Brahman realization. Indian man: No, after having realized that, we have to (indistinct) ourselves. *Prabhupāda: Now that individual soul and the Supreme Soul, Paramātmā, they are also different. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā in the Second Chapter Kṛṣṇa says, "My dear Arjuna, both you, Me, and all these persons who are assembled here, we existed in the past, and we are existing now, and we shall continue to exist." So when they become one? Past, present and future. As they were different persons in the past, they are different persons now and they will continue to remain different persons in the future. So when they become one? Indian man: Now we take it, small particles of water makes an ocean. Prabhupāda: That cannot be. Here Kṛṣṇa says that we shall remain like this in the future. Indian man: We can't get new to be... Prabhupāda: No, there is no amalgamation. It is clearly stated. Indian man: Even a drop of water, when you take it from the glass and put it on this one. Another drop of water will come and when you put it in medicine won't come in water. Like that, ātmā, will it not merge with the Paramātmā? Prabhupāda: That water is matter, that is not spirit. But we are talking of spirit. You cannot bring matter. No, that analogy cannot be, because similarity. The water is different, matter. And you are talking of spirit souls. Here it is stated that the spirit soul individually, they'll never amalgamate. Acchedyo 'yam. They cannot be separated... Indian man: Then what is the aim of bhakti if you are not going to merge with Paramātmā? *Prabhupāda: Bhakti... You try... You read carefully. Because you do not read, therefore... Nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Nitya-yuktā upāsate. When they come to the point of nitya, there also the upāsana is there. One nitya is worshiping the other nitya. That is nitya-yuktā upāsate. Indian man: Upāsana... Upāsana means... Prabhupāda: Upāsana means upāsaka, upāsana and upāsita. Three things. As soon as you bring upāsana, there must be one person who is offering upāsana and there is a process of upāsana and the other person accepting upāsana. *Indian man (2): Then we're assuming that we're, actually the idea of śuddha*-bhakti is... *Prabhupāda: Bhakti means that. Nitya*-yuktā upāsana. Upāsana continues. Here they're upāsana. Here the devotees offering worship to the Deity, it is upāsana. And after being perfect, that upāsana will continue. It will never stop. Indian man (2): It will never stop, that's the fact. That is that a man... Prabhupāda: But Māyāvādī philosophy is that you offer upāsana now and when you are perfect you become one. Indian man (2): Not one. I mean you merge with one. Not you become one. You merge with one. *Prabhupāda: Then there is no advaita*-vāda. There is dvaita-vāda. Two. There is no advaita-vāda. If you accept that you remain different, then there is no advaita. Indian man (2): We don't dare do you see, ācchā, at a particular stage you like to merge with Him? Prabhupāda: Meeting, I am meeting you. That does not mean we have become one. You are meeting me, I am meeting you. So we are different. Indian man (2): What is ultimate object of that bhakti? *Prabhupāda: Ultimate object is you are offering this flower*-this is bhakti. But you are different than me. Indian man (2): That's all right. That is all right. That bhakti, you can call it love, you can call it various things. Bhakti means surrender. Prabhupāda: Bhakti means the process by which Bhagavān and bhakta interact. That is bhakti. Indian man (2): That's all? He gains with that interaction? Prabhupāda: Interaction. That does not mean bhakta and Bhagavān become equal. *Indian man (2): Bhakta and Bhagavān may not be equal, but even the bhakti*-mārga and we say the Bhagavān Himself declares that "My bhakta is more superior to Me." *Prabhupāda: That's all right. You say whatever you say, they remain two*-different. Indian man (2): They may remain two... *Prabhupāda: Then that is not advaita*-vāda. That is dvaita-vāda. Two, two, not one. That is dvaita-vāda. That is the point. Indian man: You mean to say eternally there is a soul and... This ātmā and Paramātmā will remain separate? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the... Therefore it is said: nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Therefore the word is there, nitya-yuktā. Nitya means everlasting. Indian man: Everlasting. You remain separate. Prabhupāda: Separate. And that is a fact. *Devotee: Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. *Prabhupāda: There are so many things. But here it is said nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Even they come to the platform of nitya, where there is no birth and death. That is nitya. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Even that platform, Bhagavān remains different than the devotee who worships. Indian man (2): Eternally? *Prabhupāda: Eternally. That is nitya*-yuktā upāsate. There is no oneness. Otherwise why it is nitya-yuktā upāsate? Nityo nityānām. The nityānām, plural number, and nitya, Bhagavān. So nitya-yuktā upāsate. *Indian man: If you take the kevala*-bhaktas, if you take the life of a bhakta... *Prabhupāda: If you take logic, it is stated there in the Bhagavad*-gītā. *Indian man: If you take bhakta*-vidyā where so many sayings like Chakubhai and Namdev and all these people. If you take it... They had, they observed bhakti-mārga from the beginning, that is, they considered Kṛṣṇa... *Prabhupāda: No, they have considered that the bhakti*-mārga is a means to become one. Indian man: Means to become one. That's exactly what I mean. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their version. But that is not the version of Bhagavad*-gītā. *Indian man: Yes, it's the only way. Bhakti*-mārga is only mārga. It is only way to become one. *Prabhupāda: No. They never become one. Therefore nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Indian man: Then why should we say in our...? Prabhupāda: You can say anything, but that is not accepted. We have to accept Kṛṣṇa's statement. You can say anything. Indian man: Sir, I am not saying. That is what I am taught. Prabhupāda: At least, you are saying now. So, then which one you will take? As you are taught or as Kṛṣṇa said it? Indian man: Merge with the Lord, Mirabhai, merge with the Lord, and Chakubhai, merge with the Lord. Prabhupāda: You bring thousands of examples. Indian man: Then what is that merging? Prabhupāda: No, no. You bring thousands of examples, but whether we have to accept them or Kṛṣṇa? Indian man: I mean the doubt I am having, *Gītā*, I mean... *Prabhupāda: Then you, you now you just become out of doubt. That... Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Seventh Chapter, mayy āsakta*-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ asaṁśayam. Here is asaṁśayam. No doubt. Why you are in doubt? You do not accept Kṛṣṇa. You accept somebody else. Indian man: Not a question of accepting. We are all ignorant people in the field of... Prabhupāda: Therefore you are in doubt. Indian man: We are, we have... *Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are in doubt. If you want to be doubtless, then you accept Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta*-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Āśrayaḥ. Not that equal footing. Mad-āśrayaḥ. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu [Bg. 7.1]. So you have to accept Kṛṣṇa. If you become, if you want to become doubtless. Otherwise, you'll be put into doubt. Here it is said asaṁśayam, "without any doubt." That is the process. And if you want to remain in doubt, you continue. You accept this man, that man, that man, that man, that man. That is your business. But if you want to be doubtless, then you have to accept Kṛṣṇa. *Indian man: So we say in the bhakti*-mārga for eternally the Paramātmā and ātmā will remain separate, separate entities. Prabhupāda: And that is always. You cannot become one with Him. Indian man: Then in what levels the man got to remain in a separate entity? Always in the same bhakta? *Prabhupāda: Nitya*-yuktā upāsate. The one is worshipable, another is worshiper. That's all. Nitya-yuktā upāsate. Upāsate means the worshipable is there and the worshiper is there. Then the question of upāsana. If they become one then where is upāsana? Indian man: Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling. At one stage... Prabhupāda: But that is not the fact. Here it is said upāsate. Upāsate means he worships. So if he loses his existence, then where is worship? Indian man: No. Ātman's got to go on practicing and try to become pure and purer and purer. Prabhupāda: Without being pure you cannot go there. There is no question of upāsana. Indian man: Then our object is to get rid of the birth. Birth and death. That we want to be eternal. From there you want to get rid of your birth and death. That is birth and death. *Prabhupāda: Birth and death you stop as soon as you give up this material body. Material body, the birth question comes of the material body. And death also material body. Therefore it is clearly said in the Bhagavad*-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā. Indian man: Yes, you are trying to do sādhanas to see what... Prabhupāda: First of all, understand this, that the soul is never born, never dies. But we are seeing birth and death. What is that birth and death? It is of the body. But you are different from the body. Indian man: Yes, I am different. My soul is different, the ātmā different from the body. That is the conclusion. Prabhupāda: Birth and death applies to the body. Not to the soul. Indian man: Yes. That, your karmas, you enjoy and suffer according to your karma. Prabhupāda: That is body, all body. Indian man: That is body. How long you are going to do that? Prabhupāda: So long you are not a devotee. Indian man: I mean even if I am a devotee, I go on doing some sins... *Prabhupāda: You become devotee, then immediately transfer to the nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Indian man: Yes, I become a devotee, a true devotee... Prabhupāda: When you become a perfect devotee then you are transferred to the eternal world and your engagement is upāsana eternally. Indian man: The eternal world. What is that eternal world? *Prabhupāda: That you do not know? You read, study? Have you studied Bhagavad*-gītā? Do you know that there is an eternal world? There is an eternal world? Do you know that? Indian man: Our śāstras say eternal world... Prabhupāda: Then why do you...? Indian man: Man is eternal world by going and enjoying there in mokṣa there. Prabhupāda: So that is mokṣa. When you go to the eternal world, that is mokṣa. That is mokṣa. Indian man: Do you separate the eternal world from the Paramātmā? It is something, a world like our material world that we have got, physical world that we have got, is going to be out of, the eternal world? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. This word is used, sanātana. Sanātana means eternal. There is another world. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. Find out this verse. Everything is there. Hari-śauri: We have to start packing up now. It's quarter past six. We have to leave in ten minutes. Prabhupāda: So now we have to stop. We have to leave. You just refer that verse. Vāsughoṣa: Prabhupāda: Na vinaśyati. The material world will be finished and that will remain. Vāsughoṣa: "Yet there is another nature which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." Prabhupāda: That is sanātana. Vāsughoṣa: "Kṛṣṇa's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahmā. Kṛṣṇa's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter." And the next verse? *Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. There is an eternal world, sanātana. That is never annihilated. So when you go to that sanātana*-dhāma, God is there, sanātana, and there you live eternally and go on rendering service to God. That is (indistinct). There is no question of oneness. The variety is there, but there the varieties are eternal, here the varieties are temporary. That is difference. Everything is there. So thank you very much. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Morning Walk-*-August 27, 1976, Hyderabad Mahāṁsa: Everything he was saying is what he has learned from the Ramakrishna Society. *Prabhupāda: There are so many gentlemen who have become poisoned by this nonsense. (break*-walking, chanting japa) Very nice garden. [break] ...you see this nim tree in any other part of the world. It is only in India. Only. (break-Hindi) Sixty thousand dollars daily. Every day. This is preaching, real preaching. Substantial. It will remain. Don't pluck anymore. That's all right. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If they see us they may stop us. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān [SB 7.6.1]. This is the process. From the very beginning of life. In Hyderabad that garden, Bala, Bala... You have been? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I didn't go on the walk. Harikeśa: I don't remember the name. Prabhupāda: Bala Havan. Jawar Bala Havan. Three, four big, big buildings, they're closed. What they are teaching to the bālas? No teaching. Very old buildings. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Lodi tomb. Prabhupāda: Lodi dynasty there were family, Lodi dynasty. Indian man: Yes, Lodi tomb. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] Indian man: All the conferences here are educational. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Built by the Americans? Indian man: Yes. Behind this is a fruit farmer's lot. [break] Prabhupāda: ...the tomb? Very big. Harikeśa: I was just thinking that this was really a case of decoration of the dead body. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, see the Taj Mahal. That's thousand times better than this. Prabhupāda: In the gate it is said that bicycle prohibited. [break] ...tomb was constructed before Taj Mahal. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...improvement on this park. Indian man: the last two years the have rebuilt this park.(?) [break] Prabhupāda: ...there are similar buildings. Hari-śauri: In Rome? Prabhupāda: Yes. Old. And hundreds of tourists go to see them. Hari-śauri: That Coliseum is very famous all over the world. That Coliseum? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We go from here. [break] Prabhupāda: ...inquires, "Why you are chanting?" The simple reply is that "We have to go somewhere after death. We are going to Godhead. And you do not know where you'll go." Thik hai? They do not know where they will go. The animals do not know. Huh? Indian man: We know where we have to go, to... Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) *Morning Walk Conversation About Bombay-*-August 29, 1976, Delhi Girirāja: And then in the temple itself they're starting to fix the carved marble on these columns and it's just getting very exciting. Then on the gate they're starting to put the domes. And yesterday Saurabha and I went to see some samples of furniture, very attractive furniture. So we're going to make a model room. Prabhupāda: Model room? What is that model room? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A model, sample. Girirāja: We're going to fix one of the rooms on the first floor with all of the furnishings and everything just as it will be when the building is complete. But there is still other work going on. So it couldn't be used for living, but it will look just like a finished room. And Acyutānanda Swami is doing very nicely. He attends maṅgala-ārati every morning, he gives class in the temple in the morning and in the evening. And we're having a lot of programs at Rotary clubs, Lion's Clubs, colleges and universities. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Girirāja: Mandiras. And distributing literature. Well, the final lift in the building will still take until December, and then so far as another lift for your present quarters... Prabhupāda: No, no. Why? There is no need of present quarter lift. No. Girirāja: Okay. Anyway, the new lift is going according to their schedule which is much faster than their original schedule. Prabhupāda: So on the whole it is coming nice. Girirāja: Oh yes. There's a lot of enthusiasm for Kṛṣṇa consciousness in Bombay. Just due to this Janmāṣṭamī we made about 15 or 20 life patron members. They just keep coming. "I visited your festival," then they come back and arrange other programs for us and become patron members. And newspaper people also are starting to... Prabhupāda: Giving some coverage. Girirāja: ...good... The Free Press wants to make a two page feature with pictures all about our activities. Prabhupāda: What about taking action against Blitz? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well he wrote to me but I didn't have time to discuss with you. Girirāja discussed with everyone and they feel that it's not worth it. Prabhupāda: All right. Girirāja: The thing is that it's not very certain that we'll win and if we file... Prabhupāda: No. It is not a question of winning. It is a question of discussing in the court. Girirāja: Yes, but that's also... Prabhupāda: And the paper does not give any publicity. Girirāja: Well, see, their paper... You see, this man, the editor, he thrives on controversy and notoriety. So he likes cases. And then when the case comes up, he gives the report of the case in his newspaper. So most people felt that he would be very happy if we filed suit because that will increase his... Prabhupāda: It will be in his favor. Girirāja: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I met one, but, I knew the assistant editor of Times of India and I spoke to him about it. He said if we wrote a strong reply, we could perhaps get him to print our reply on third page. We could perhaps get him... He's done that in the past. But it's a risky gamble. Girirāja: There was a new article this week. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Blitz? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: About us? Girirāja: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Another one? Girirāja: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You have it? Girirāja: No. I thought you might have it. Prabhupāda: What is read? Girirāja: They were very agitated that so many big ministers and people came to our function in Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Girirāja: Actually, it's like a backhanded compliment. Whatever they wrote was very favorable. Prabhupāda: That is counteraction. Girirāja: Yes. Actually it was good publicity. The headline was that the Andhra government is falling for our tricks. But all the subject was very good. Prabhupāda: We got very good coverage in Hyderabad by all the papers. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Have you seen it? Girirāja: Yes, you sent me some clippings. They're very good. In bold type... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "CM praises ISKCON." Girirāja: In the Blitz in the bold type they quote the Endowments Minister that we owe a great debt of gratitude to Śrīla Prabhupāda for reminding us of the great treasure that we have in our own culture. Prabhupāda: Then they've already owned (won) the case. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, they don't know that you addressed the whole cabinet in that Endowment Minister's house. That Blitz doesn't know. Girirāja: They mentioned that the Commissioner of Town Planning designed the temple. They mentioned that the Chief Minister came. They mentioned that we have a farm to help the poor people. Prabhupāda: Oh, everything is there. Girirāja: All of our credits are there. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Although they are Communist they just want to... Prabhupāda: Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing is now that we can expect something almost every few weeks. Blitz, once it starts on something it just goes on. I think we should at least write a letter to them just saying... Girirāja: I was... At first, I thought there is no use to meet the editor because he's a demon. Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Delhi man who wrote the story, this editor told me he's an outright Communist. Prabhupāda: Sit down. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually an outright Communist. Girirāja: The other point that people felt that nobody will take it seriously because everyone knows that it's just junk. *Prabhupāda: Third*-class paper. (Child speaking in background.) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It has a wide circulation in India. [break] Prabhupāda: ...leave this boy in the park and we shall go. Let them come, walking. You come walking? Live here? No. Cannot walk? He can walk. Leave him here. (Prabhupāda is teasing a little child.) Child: That's the park! Here we are! Prabhupāda: They will come back by walking. Child: There we are. Ācchā. Child: We're going to come back by the walk. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: How many Hindi words do you know? Child: I know ācchā.... Prabhupāda: Yes, no, very good. (laughter) [break] Sudāmā and Puruṣottama, another boy, he was also... There was competition in collecting flower. I think Sudāmā stood first. And he was coming. We have to go this way? Indian man: Any way. We can go this way, we can go this way. Hari-śauri: We want to avoid any hills and things if we can. Devotee: Which one? [break] Prabhupāda: Why not? He'll come walking. We are going in the car. There is no place. They can walk. They are young children. (Children playing and laughing, "Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda!") [break] ...twice, thrice in a year total. Hari-śauri: Hut! Hut! Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda just returned from his fifteenth world tour. [break] Prabhupāda: We have got now... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A new house, Feroz Gandhi Road. Indian man: Feroz Gandhi Marg (Hindi) Lajpat Nagar number three. [break] Prabhupāda: ...place in the car. This way? Indian man: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: All right. Indian man: These children, they are coming from which place? Hari-śauri: France and... Prabhupāda: The smaller one from France and the bigger one from America. International. Indian man: And their parents also there. Prabhupāda: They are also here. We are a society, so the gṛhasthas are there, brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs, vānaprastha. All status of life. Missionaries, they have got only sannyāsīs. We have got all. Indian man: The other missionaries? Prabhupāda: Just like Ramakrishna Mission. They have got only sannyāsīs. No gṛhasthas. But we have got gṛhasthas also. Children: Go this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: You go this way, I shall go this way. Children: Go this way! Prabhupāda: No, you go this way. Children: No, you go this way. Prabhupāda: No, you go. We shall go this way. There is no place in the car. You go this way. Indian man: You have got a very good canteen over here, do you care for a cup of milk or tea or something. Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, (laughs) I am not eating very much. Indian man: Rice, anything you would care for. Children: Go this way. This way. Prabhupāda: I cannot digest. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Because you have to walk. (laughs) [break] ...can stay here. Jaya. Hari-śauri: Hut! Children: Hut! Hut! Hut! Hari-śauri: Don't annoy it. Otherwise, it might not be so friendly. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have to walk, why you are getting? Hari-śauri: There's no room. Prabhupāda said you have to walk. You have to stay in the park. Children: No! Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a straight road. Hari-śauri: Come on, let's go. Let's lock the door. [break] (in the car) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: His father's the head pūjārī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good pūjārī. Children: You know the dress that was yesterday? Deity's dress? The same as your birthday dress. Girirāja: The dress that was put yesterday was the same as the birthday dress? Child: Of Prabhupāda. *Hari-śauri: No, the Vyāsa*-pūjā dress. *Girirāja: Oh, the Vyāsa*-pūjā dress. Prabhupāda: What is that? You know? *Girirāja: What is Vyāsa*-pūjā? (end) *Morning Walk-*-August 30, 1976, Delhi Prabhupāda: ...the cause of bondage. This body, if the desires are not fulfilled, but the desire is continuing, so to fulfill the desire, Kṛṣṇa will give him chance for another type of body by which he can fulfill. That means he gets another body. Then another desire. [break] ...they're trying to put out the desire, but he is desiring to become liberated. That is another desire. The yogis are trying to concentrate on liberation by practicing yoga. And that is also another desire. In this way, one desire after another, another desire... Bhavānanda: Then how to get free from those desires? *Prabhupāda: Free means desire should be purified. That means desires should be to render service to the Lord. That is real purification. The example is given, just like gold. There are impurities. That impurities, you cannot cleanse it simply by washing. You have to put into the fire. When it is melted then automatically all the dirty things are gone. His natural position is part and parcel of God, to render service to God. So unless he takes up that thing, there is no question of desirelessness. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is demanding, "Surrender." And as soon as he surrenders, then material desires become vanquished. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Otherwise, the... He cannot rectify one desire by another desire. That is not possible. Then it will produce another desire. Bhavānanda: To purify that desire we also have to be put into the fire? *Prabhupāda: This is an example, that without being put into the fire, there is no purity of the gold or silver. Similarly, without being engaged in the service of the Lord, there is no question of purifying the desire. (break*-no longer in car) Hari-śauri: This is another gate in the Lodi. Prabhupāda: Oh. Child: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Jaya Prabhupāda! [break] Prabhupāda: (dogs barking in background) United Nations. And as soon as he finds another dog, immediately barking. (end) *Meeting With Member of Parliament, Mr. Krishna Modi-*-August 31, 1976, Delhi Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is always traveling. (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: This is the only hope. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Throughout the whole world the situation is not very good. Now there is drought, no water. All over the world. I have seen whole Europe, all the fields are now gray, no green. (Hindi) Krishna Modi: India this year is very good rains. Beyond expectation. And also this crop is very good. (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ. Nature's work is there. As soon as there is sufficient rain you get sufficient crops. And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. Kali-yuga, this age, the yajña is hari-kīrtana. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ. (Hindi) Krishna Modi: Who can do this thing? Prabhupāda: We can do that. We can do that. Provided there is cooperation. Now... Krishna Modi: They have not given you phone number of this place. I was not in idea that they had shifted you. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Tejas did not tell you. Krishna Modi: And therefore I have phoned and phoned and phoned, but I was not getting anything. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When was this? Long time ago? *Krishna Modi: No. Yesterday. Because yesterday I was to come here. But I was called by Mr. Brahmānanda and he told me that you have come here (indistinct) so that I want to know something (indistinct). One question was put up in Rājya*-sabhā and he's (indistinct) there. I told him that he's full of (indistinct). There are some gentlemen of er..., labor minister and from (indistinct) Andhra Pradesh. They were also there. (indistinct) Mr. D. D. Desai is also there. (indistinct) And we have discussed at length. And we have told them and there is no restriction (indistinct) the size and to everybody. And you see then it is in Indian history, it is first time that something has been done. All people are saying that they have done in America, they have done in so many centers all over the world and then we are, something like that, it is shameful. Prabhupāda: It is Indian culture. Krishna Modi: Indian culture. Then he told me that you are perfectly right and I am also an Indian and I have that right also that we have no knowledge about all these things. If you have something then you please let us know so that we may inquire the particular matter. And I told him that you inquire first and then why I should have to inquire. Why I have? There is no matter, no anything, then how can I give the order for inquiry. On what basis? Let the something come, then I will... And I told them that why you are harassing? This sign, this sign, all these things, this passport, and in all these things, and you say that you go over and, Why you are...? Visa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Visa. Krishna Modi: Visa. Why you are harassing? I will check up. And you write me a letter so that I may call the consultant on the visas so that I may discuss it. And at length there was a discussion and that was refuted because there were two, three gentlemen, personalities from Andhra, they also supported. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda addressed the whole Andhra Pradesh cabinet in Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: I was invited by the... Krishna Modi: Yes, they have told, they have told. And they have told also that, no, no, no, no, no, no. For (indistinct) they are the (indistinct) and we must respect them. And if anybody says something against them, and we must be very careful about that. And we cannot object to it. Then all we have got the same opinion (indistinct) and we have to (indistinct). This is the thing. Now about this thing, Blitz article. You should not reply. I advised that. You should not reply to all these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We gave the reply to... Krishna Modi: To me. And... Prabhupāda: (Hindi) We shall break after twelve, later prasāda. Krishna Modi: If Gurudeva is hungry . How I can take? Prabhupāda: No, you can take. You can take. Krishna Modi: You give something so that... Prabhupāda: No. You give the whole thing to him. (indistinct) Krishna Modi: I will arrange. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Mahā*-prasādam. (Hindi) Krishna Modi: You will reply and also the article, so that I am arranging to call all the members Parliament concerning this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. They are some members, so you give me the list of them. And then we will discuss all the matters. Then we will give the articles to all the other papers from outside. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That will be very nice. Krishna Modi: Illustrated Weekly or News or Kalyani... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Illustrated Weekly is atheistic. Khushwant Singh, the editor, openly told us that "I don't believe in God." But Tanyug(?) is religious. Krishna Modi: We don't mind for that. We will give. And each will write and sign. (indistinct) And if you don't mind I will give one suggestion more. In the Indian national interest, in this country's interest, that I should prepare some interested members to see all over the world, our, this... Prabhupāda: That will be very nice. Krishna Modi: So that... Let them ticket hire and air freight and all that should be paid by them. Let them support. Prabhupāda: We have got branches in almost all important cities. Krishna Modi: Ten or fifteen. Let them see so that they may be attracted and they may know each and every thing. Because here we know only by this thing. And then let us advertise about. Prabhupāda: You take this paper. Make a list of important cities. Now suppose if you go from Delhi. So you can go first to Paris, Geneva, Rome, then London, Amsterdam, Stockholm. Then from London I think New York, Boston, Montreal, Canada. Then you go to the western side, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Vancouver. Go further, Honolulu. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Then you could go to the Pacific, Australia. Prabhupāda: Ah yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New Zealand, Sydney. Prabhupāda: Australia, Melbourne. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You can stop in Japan on the way. Krishna Modi: Let us have a program, make a program so that some... Prabhupāda: In every big city... Krishna Modi: Five or ten, they should go with all their expenses. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can stay at our temples. Wherever they go. We will pick them up at the airport and bring them to the temple. *Krishna Modi: Pre*-arrangement should be done by our, this thing, this transport and fooding and lodging. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Local transport and... Krishna Modi: That is. So that I may fix up this program with the... Prabhupāda: Very good. Krishna Modi: Ten or fifteen people so that they may go and see and all these things and then they can also, if any question comes in the House then they can oppose like anything. And they should submit their report also to the Prime Minister, Home Minister, to everybody and to House also. And this thing has been done and we must be proud about that, that some... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And to start out they can come to Vṛndāvana which is right nearby. We can take them in a bus. We have a beautiful center in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And Māyāpura, Vṛndāvana. Krishna Modi: Yes, that because this is in India. Whenever they like, they will see it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So when can they organize this tour? How soon can it be organized? Krishna Modi: I'll ask them. I have an idea about that only. Because yesterday Mr. Brahmānanda already told me that "Why not you people also stand up and say something about that." Why not you strengthen my hands. Because they press and press and they want something that I should say something. So if you people stand and then you say that "No no no no, this is not the thing and we have seen it and this and this and that and that." And they will be... That is his idea. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But the only people who are pressing charges are the Communists. Krishna Modi: But they will do. That is their duty. Prabhupāda: They are atheists. Krishna Modi: Yes. So that why we should mind for that? That is there. You may say they're rākṣasa, or whatever you... (laughs) They will, always they will... Prabhupāda: Rākṣasas are always ready to kill God. That was the business of Rāvaṇa, that was the business of Kaṁsa, that was the business of Hiraṇyakaśipu. Krishna Modi: That is the same thing in Rāvaṇa and this... What is this? That is the same thing. They were happy, they were drink and all these things, and take and all that time, and also harassing the devotees and... This is their duty. This is their duty. Therefore we should not mind for that. Let them do it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, even Russia, which is Communist, has admired Prabhupāda's books. I have written reviews. I was in Russia two months ago. They're praising Prabhupāda's books very much. The leading professors there. Krishna Modi: Also, this is a part of nowadays. Advertise and all these things, to know each and every thing. This is correct that why you are worrying about all these things. People should know it about you. Why not hear it? This is perfectly right, I agree with you. But in the interest of other people who have faith in their religion... *Prabhupāda: No, our mission is that this Kṛṣṇa cult should be preached all over the world. That is the... Bhagavad*-gītā, (indistinct) Find out this verse, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68]. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. Hari-śauri: Is that the one, "There's no one more dear to me than..." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in black Africa Prabhupāda has temples. Krishna Modi: Yes, that is good. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I said even in black Africa you have temples and devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Modi: You must circulate these all things. At least to our members. Prabhupāda: Read it. Lokanātha: Where is the verse? Prabhupāda: Why don't you print the opinions? Several times... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have printed. Prabhupāda: Where is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, I have it. We have printed the reviews in all, and the Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is Authorized. Prabhupāda: That is a simple thing, but all the reviews you should print them in... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In a book form. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are hundreds of reviews. Krishna Modi: And you should also supply that to at least your interested members. Interested Parliament only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll design a special booklet just for... Prabhupāda: I am asking you for so many months that you publish all these opinions. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have all the opinions, but we presently have them in sheets. Not in a book form. We can put it in... Prabhupāda: Where is that? Where is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In the sheets? Oh, I have. Yes I have most of the reviews, book reviews, with me. Prabhupāda: So, where is that? Bring it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Lokanātha: Prabhupāda: Yes. *Lokanātha: Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: "Generally it is advised that Bhagavad*-gītā be discussed amongst the devotees only, for those who are not devotees will neither understand Kṛṣṇa nor Bhagavad-gītā. Those who do not accept Kṛṣṇa as He is and Bhagavad-gītā as it is should not try to explain Bhagavad-gītā whimsically and become offenders. Bhagavad-gītā should be explained to persons who are ready to accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is a subject matter for devotees only and not for philosophical speculators. Anyone, however, who tries sincerely to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is will advance in devotional activities and reach the pure devotional state of life. As a result of such pure devotion, he is sure to go back home, back to Godhead." Prabhupāda: What is this? Krishna Modi: That is Blitz. Prabhupāda: Oh. It is new? Hari-śauri: No, this is the first article. Krishna Modi: And second article also they have given. Hari-śauri: Yes, there's another one. Krishna Modi: Blitz has given second article also. Hari-śauri: Yes, this last week's issue. This one's from two or three weeks ago. Prabhupāda: (reads newspaper headlines:) "(indistinct) Ungodly face of Kṛṣṇa." Krishna Modi: They must say like that. (laughs) They must say it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These books have been acclaimed by scholars all over the world. Krishna Modi: Not world, but give us only Indian, Indian. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want only the Indian. Krishna Modi: Yes. Hari-śauri: This is last week. Krishna Modi: This Andhra government also are (indistinct). Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Such bogus. Prabhupāda: No, all the ministers of Andhra government, they came to our opening ceremony of the temple. Chief Minister spoke and the Endowment Minister, Suraj Narayan, Raju, he's a nice devotee. (Hindi) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Brittanic Encyclopedia... Prabhupāda: Where is the opinion of the Russian? Krishna Modi: This is... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the way it is now. They're telling everyone that the Andhra government is... Krishna Modi: I don't think it is anything wrong. But in article they have told nothing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They try to indirectly... Krishna Modi: Ah, that is not... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they have nothing to prove... Krishna Modi: Prove them therefore... Let them say like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Brittanic Encyclopedia on the book of the year, they only have about a hundred selected personalities of the world and they had a biography on Prabhupāda. Krishna Modi: I think we must systematically discuss this matter. Now I think it is decided... Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Krishna Modi: It is now decided that you will give us all the Indian... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also should we give you what Indian professors wrote? Like this "Dr. Mahesh Mehta at the University of (indistinct). Some of the Indian professors in America are very..." Indians in India and Indians abroad. Krishna Modi: Indians, all Indians abroad. Abroad and also Communist countries if anybody. Give us any report. Russia, like that you should give us in a file, make a file. And one thing is this. Now second is that when we are... Prabhupāda: This is a good book advertisement. (laughs) "Andhra government falls for Kṛṣṇa..." Krishna Modi: (laughs) No, he has not written anything. It is only it seems that... What can be said about... Prabhupāda: Whole government is supporting. Krishna Modi: Supporting. His meaning is this, that this Congress government is also doing all these mischiefs, so that they will... (laughs)... That his main idea, and nothing else. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are also victimized by this Kṛṣṇa cult. Krishna Modi: One thing, then, you will give us all these recorded informations and all these... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Reviews. And also we give you letters of leading ācāryas of India who are... Krishna Modi: No harm. And second thing, after three months or at the time of session, you must call the MPs for a time only for taking prasāda. And they'll come. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Four or five? All of them? Krishna Modi: Four, five, and we will bring so many. So that let them... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have few movies on our movement. Like one is on our New Vrindaban farm which shows how the Indian Vedic way of life is being adapted even in America on the farm. A movie on the Hare Kṛṣṇa people... Krishna Modi: You show them at that time. I will invite. Just say you have shown that in Tirupati's house, Hare Kṛṣṇa picture that... And that is very impressive. Everybody appreciate that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have two more movies like that. Krishna Modi: Ah, then you must... I will arrange for that. In October we are meeting again after 25th. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When the session is over or almost over? *Krishna Modi: No, session is for today, that's all. Then it is over. Then at any time, you meet me. I will invite them. I will invite them. So that let them come*-ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty-five, thirty-let them come, and let them see, and let them... So that our number must be... And third I will request you, make a program. I will make for this work. Let them see for one month program. And they will pay all their air freight, all these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And local transportation, local accommodation... Krishna Modi: Local accommodation and all, that should be managed, and nothing else. So that let them know each and every thing so that they may... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we will give the reply to Blitz to you? Krishna Modi: Yes, give me so that we will... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll give it to you this evening or leave it in your house. Krishna Modi: O.K. So before 5th I will give some good papers for that... giving our names also. In our name. These articles will be published in our name. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want us to give you an article on ISKCON? A brief article? Or... Krishna Modi: No, you don't give the article. You give only that and this thing. Then we will give. In Hindi also and in English and Gujarati. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We will do that. Krishna Modi: (Hindi) They don't want anything. They say that religious is a opium. So that what you are doing (indistinct). They are not (indistinct). If they are in power then they can do like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They did it in Russia. Krishna Modi: Because their theory is this: That this God and all these religious matters, this is a opium and this is a kind of, you may say it that in the umbrella. Religious in the name of... Prabhupāda: And what they have done, the Communists? Krishna Modi: They have not done anything. They should not do anything. It is not their duty. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, countries like Russia and China, what actual progress they have made? Krishna Modi: That is... They say like that, that we are giving very good food to everybody, very good house, and living, and all their (indistinct), education, medical free. We are giving the to common men... Prabhupāda: Medical (indistinct) is free. Free medical service, education... [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...and in the offices of big, big professors and all, it looks so much lower than in America or Canada. Krishna Modi: And in the comparison of India? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, in some respects I found them even lower than India. You'll be amazed... I visited all the leading libraries of Russia and Leningrad. Moscow University Library, all the big libraries. These libraries don't have any foreign exchange for ordering these books. They all want to order... They were begging me for free books. They said, "Why don't you give us a donation or exchange." They have a book exchange that if they give their books then we give our books. Each library gets such little foreign exchange allowance to buy books from abroad. Prabhupāda: A taxi driver, he was asking some bhakshish. Krishna Modi: In Russia. Prabhupāda: And I was talking with Professor Katovsky. I asked him please call for a taxi. So he said, "Swamiji, it is Moscow." That means taxis are not available. Then he came down with me and from the gate he showed me, "You take this shortcut when you go to your hotel." He could not call a taxi. Taxis are not available. He said, "Oh, it is Moscow." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But even the taxi drivers are very corrupt because of the shortage of taxis in Russia. You have to stand in line for taxis. Prabhupāda: Not taxi, bus. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even for taxis they have no taxi stands where you stand in line. So the taxi driver, he will park his car a little bit away. Prabhupāda: In my opinion it is a poor country. I think poorer than India. Krishna Modi: They have advertised only. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have good propaganda. Prabhupāda: And people are not happy. They are terrorized. *Krishna Modi: That is correct. That is correct. In Parliament we are telling that they are a first*-class prisoner. First-class prison. *Prabhupāda: Yes. First*-class prisoners. Not first-class, third-class. (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But I was told, because a lot of people in Russia who are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa also. It's very... There's a lot of corruption. Even the taxi drivers are corrupt. They'll park their taxi a bit away then come and approach you when you are standing in a line and say, "Okay, I'll take you there," but he'll tell you three times the price because everyone's waiting in such a long line for a taxi. Prabhupāda: Black market. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And one friend of ours told us what they do because all the cars belong to the state, a lot of taxis, the people... Krishna Modi: The taxis are not independent. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they all belong to the state. But the driver, if he makes extra money, that goes in his pocket and they have tipping also. *Prabhupāda: And they are always anxious to get extra. Buses are not very good. Third*-class buses. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And a lot of people want foreign exchange there. Like they'll ask... Krishna Modi: I'm going. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You're going to Russia? When? Krishna Modi: Yes, on 4th of October. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For how long? Krishna Modi: About fifteen days. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Visit. Krishna Modi: Budapest also. Because I am not Communist and I'm not supporting also Communist. Therefore they have not told that he should not be sent there. Told me. But due to some... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You are going to just Budapest? That is Hungary. Krishna Modi: Hungary, yes. Hungary then Moscow. Then Moscow, Leningrad. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. Actually I can give you a book from Leningrad if you wish to... This is from Moscow if you want to read it. It's all about Moscow. These are of course the good pictures of Moscow. You wish to have it? I can give it to you. This is on Moscow. I also have one on Leningrad. Krishna Modi: I will take after lunch. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a letter from the biggest library in Russia to Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. They have ordered some books, and they want the remaining books but they wanted free, in exchange. But they don't have the money. They want all of Prabhupāda's books but they don't have the money so they want in exchange. This is from the biggest library in Russia. Krishna Modi: Our economy is something good at this time. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Indian economy... Krishna Modi: Indian economy is better. Income tax also they have got 67% more. Because they have reduced the rate. Prabhupāda: What is the percentage? Krishna Modi: Before that the percentage is 97 but last year, is 1976, in the March they have reduced the income tax from 97 to 65. 67. Prabhupāda: In America it is 25. Krishna Modi: No, not 25, that is 45... But there is a system in West Germany that if you earn more, the tax will be less. That is their system. If people will earn 200 crores, then the tax percentage will be lower. Lower. Prabhupāda: That is good. That is good. The psychology is that if you earn more and government will tax more, then the impetus for earning more is cut. Krishna Modi: Therefore they have got no black money. And here the system is different. If you will earn more then you will have to pay more. It means people are not as interested in earning. Prabhupāda: Therefore what is the use of earning? What is the use of earning? Krishna Modi: That is true. Then I will get all the replies and papers today. And I will arrange each and every thing before 5th or 6th of September. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You leave here the 6th? Krishna Modi: Oh no. I will leave today or tomorrow. But I will come and I will arrange all these things. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When are you coming back here? Krishna Modi: I will come back on 5th. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. So I'll meet you on the 5th then. Krishna Modi: No, I will ring you here. You give me the telephone number. No, we don't mind for them. We will crush them for all these things. They can't speak like that. If they will speak in India, then... Prabhupāda: One thing, general thing, that I am writing books and selling in foreign countries and I'm bringing the money here. It is for India's sake(?). Krishna Modi: But somebody should tell in the House all these things. Prabhupāda: You can tell. Krishna Modi: That is the thing only. That is the point of Mr. Brahmānanda Reddy also. Yesterday he told me... Prabhupāda: This is the important point that my books are sold daily sixty thousand dollars all over the world. I have made the Trust so all the collections should be divided fifty percent for constructing temple and fifty percent for reprinting books. So we don't take a paisa profit. So far as an author, they are selling sixty thousand dollars. And even if I would have taken ten percent royalty then it would have been six thousand dollars. Six thousand dollars means... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hundred and eighty thousand dollars a month. Prabhupāda: No no no. Six thousand dollars means, say ten rupees. Krishna Modi: Sixty thousand per day. Prabhupāda: Sixty thousand per day. Actually. But we are all foregoing it for pushing on this movement, and if we bring that money and construct big, big temple or planetarium, what is the harm to India? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is bringing in more foreign exchange than even big business export concerns. Prabhupāda: I'm bringing regularly not less than ten lakhs of rupees per month. Krishna Modi: Sending to India. We must tell them all these things. Prabhupāda: You tell. Krishna Modi: That is the thing. This is the Brahmānanda... I already told yesterday that some members must be briefed and they must tell something so that my hands may be strengthened and so that I may... Prabhupāda: It is a great credit that I am selling my books and bringing ten lakhs of rupees from foreign country in India. Krishna Modi: That we will speak. And his mind is very clear. Brahmānanda his mind is very clear, very clear, and he is appreciating. And he is in our favor 100%. Prabhupāda: Even not in our favor. I am working hard in foreign countries and bringing money to India. You should give us some credit. But instead of giving credit, I am being criticized in the Parliament. Krishna Modi: They are putting like this. They are putting this case like that, that foreign money is coming here to advertise the American embassies, like that. They are that talking like that. Prabhupāda: They may talk nonsense, but this is the fact. This is the fact. I have got my Book Trust Fund and I've advised regularly to send eight lakhs of rupees per month. That is being spent in Bombay, in... I'm not collecting from here. Krishna Modi: That is correct. Prabhupāda: So if an Indian brings from foreign country by his labor eight lakhs of rupees per month, how much credit he should be given? He should be recognized. But instead of recognizing they are criticizing. Krishna Modi: This is their way, sir. They have to. They must do it. Because... Prabhupāda: So you kindly speak to the Parliament that "This is the position, that he is working day and night..." Krishna Modi: Oh no, I will speak very high about this. Let them, let the matter come. And if not come then we will take this matter. I will give the question. You please reply how much money is coming and in what way they are doing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Modi: I will ask the question. Prabhupāda: Prove that the American government is supplying some way. No. We are selling our books. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually when you go abroad you can even see how our income's coming. How our temples live. We are all over the world. Prabhupāda: That is our books are being printed. Krishna Modi: A very big thing it is. It is marvelous that you have done such a thing. It is proud of India that... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New York devotees just got a twelve story building right in the center and I know the local Hindus they are trying to build a small temple since twenty years and they're not succeeding. And right in the center of New York we have a twelve story building. Now all the Hindus are coming to us. Prabhupāda: You have got that picture New York temple? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Ratha*-yātrā picture? Ratha-yātrā, the New York paper. New York Times, Newsweek, all the Indians came. They said, "East Meets West." Prabhupāda: Now who has converted so many of... This is one party. (refers to kīrtana going on nearby) Hundreds of parties like this, they are engaged in kīrtana. India government is sending so many professional dancers by paying them from the cultural department and what I am getting? Not a single farthing. And still I am bringing. Krishna Modi: Ah, Indian culture is... You... Nobody has done these things. *Prabhupāda: The Ratha*-yātrā festival, where is? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, the news of Ratha*-yātrā. "New York Celebrates Festival of Chariots." Even at the U.N. conference we were there. They welcomed Vedic... We presented a Vedic reply to the U.N. conference. Prabhupāda: Wherever possible we are presenting Vedic culture, Indian culture. And I have no support from the government. Krishna Modi: Let us have. Prabhupāda: And a professional dancer is going and the government is paying. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'd like you to take this because this also has an article at length about our Gurukula system in America. Prabhupāda: Unless they are appreciating this culture, how they are accepting? Krishna Modi: It is perfectly right. But they must do it like that. Prabhupāda: Who will do. Do it... We can give you all information. Krishna Modi: That I will speak each and every thing. I will give a speech about all these things in any way. I have got... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This one is later. Just came. This is a new sample copy that we have. Krishna Modi: And what is your program, sir? Prabhupāda: My program is chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and write books. That's all. Krishna Modi: No, no, now. Staying in India. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am going to Vṛndāvana. Krishna Modi: Today? Prabhupāda: Tomorrow. (Hindi) Krishna Modi: And you are staying at Vṛndāvana up to... Prabhupāda: At least three weeks. Krishna Modi: Three weeks. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we can arrange a bus and... Krishna Modi: You will arrange for bus? Prabhupāda: Let them go. They have got their cars. Krishna Modi: They have their car also and they have got this Taj and all these trains. Why you arrange? Let them spend. Prabhupāda: I wanted to work in India by spreading saṅkīrtana provided I get little cooperation of the government. Krishna Modi: That we will talk. That we will talk. Prabhupāda: One cooperation is that we can bring immediately a small vans or buses so that we can go village to village, town to town. If I get government permit then... Because here the buses are very costly, and at the same time they are not very good. But foreign buses... India hasn't got to pay anything but simply let us have and work in India. This much facility wanted. Besides that, our men, they are coming, spending ten thousand rupees and after three months or six months, "Get out, get out, get out." And Indians are not joining. Indians are not so sacrificing. But these boys they have sacrificed everything. I am sure if some cooperation is coming from the government I can very soon change the face of India. But I am not getting any facilities. We have experimented in Bengal, and here also, he is also going, saṅkīrtana party. But he could not do it in a large scale for want of facilities. And in foreign countries these boys are so sacrificing spirit, as soon as we give him some program, immediately they make arrangement. Immediately. We are going village to village with books in buses. Hundreds of buses are working. Krishna Modi: In America. *Prabhupāda: In America, in Europe. They have got facilities, full facilities. And government appreciates. Some of the governments they have given public holiday of the Ratha*-yātrā. *Paramahaṁsa: This is from the Mayor of San Francisco proclaiming that Ratha*-yātrā is a public holiday. Krishna Modi: In America. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Yes, fifty thousand people come every year. Prabhupāda: And this time, New York, the government, the police, they appreciated that this kind of dancing, it is not artificial. So here is life. They appreciated. What the American boys have got to dance for Kṛṣṇa unless it is from the heart? They are not dancing dogs that I have trained them and they are dancing. So there are so many things to be done in India but I am, without getting any cooperation, I am getting opposition. Krishna Modi: Quite. Now let us, we must be active. We must be active. Prabhupāda: It will be good for the country, for the whole nation. Krishna Modi: And we will come Vṛndāvana also. Prabhupāda: Please come. I am there for three weeks. Krishna Modi: How many rupees per day for three days? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have about a thirty*-room guest house in Vṛndāvana. Paramahaṁsa: You bring eighty persons with you, make nice arrangements. Prabhupāda: If you want sir, that is charge. We charge. Krishna Modi: That is... You must charge it. Lokanātha: Our charges are very nominal. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A donation to that temple. Krishna Modi: That is perfectly correct. You must charge. If your members will get free. Lokanātha: Yes. Each room has a fan, bath... Prabhupāda: It is (indistinct). Krishna Modi: That is perfect. *Prabhupāda: I think air*-conditioned? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Some rooms are air*-conditioned, two or three... Prabhupāda: As far as your governor Reddy, he went. He stayed there two days. He has certified... He sent me a recent letter, you'll be surprised. Ask Harikeśa to bring that letter. Latest letter from Chatterjee. Krishna Modi: No I have seen that. I have seen that. Prabhupāda: Latest? Krishna Modi: Latest. Also I heard that this Channa Reddy, Governor of the U.P. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's one of our Gurukula children. Prabhupāda: Let us cooperate. You'll see how I can change the face of India. Krishna Modi: Let us train some members also. *Prabhupāda: And this is the only platform where real United Nations can be made. That is practical. That is practical. That United Nation has failed. If this Indian culture... I have given this philosophy to the American students. Andha*-paṅgu-nyāya. That a lame man and a blind man, separately, both of them are useless. But when they combine together, the lame man is taken on the shoulder of the blind man, and the lame man has got eyes but he has no legs. He gives direction and the blind man goes. So the, at the present moment I am trying to spread this movement all over the world. But we have no means. So let America supply the money, and let them take our direction for the culture. That will be United Nation. And actually it will become. How they are dancing, black, white, Indian, American, European, in Ratha-yātrā? There is no politics. It is out of really spiritual ecstasy. Krishna Modi: Ah, what is politics? *Prabhupāda: So this is the real platform of United Nation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu [Bg. 18.54]. At that time samaḥ sarveṣu. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. They have no demand. These boys they are working so hard. They never ask a single paisa from me. It is not possible for me to pay these foreigners as salaried man. That is not possible. They get minimum four thousand rupees minimum. Minimum salary America is $400 dollars. That means four thousand rupees. So and they are getting $800, $1200, $2000. And poverty is unknown in America. They do not know what is poverty. I see here the milk they are standing in block. You can get as much milk as you want anywhere you go, any shop you go you take immediately. Anything. Building materials. You simply order to the suppliers, immediately everything is there. Krishna Modi: Ah, but here there are so many difficulties. Prabhupāda: Here simply difficulties. In comparison to other countries, I have seen that it is simply difficulty. Frankly speaking. And to speak more frankly, why there is emergency? Emergency means bad government. Otherwise, there is no necessity of emergency. Emergency proves the government is not going nice. Is it not? Why emergency? If it is normally going on nicely then where is the question of emergency? Krishna Modi: Emergency means there is something unnormal. Prabhupāda: Yes. If it is normal there is no question of emergency. That is the proof. Another thing, personally, from the Vedic point of view, I don't think India is ready to take actually democracy. Mass of people, they do not care for politics. You have better experience. There, in other countries, even a small man, he has got political sense. Krishna Modi: Ah, but they are educated. Prabhupāda: But here, mass of people, they do not know what is politics. One gentleman, he was my friend, it was in 1952 or '53, Mr. Datt. He was a statistics man. So he was going in the villages to take some statistics. He said to me: "In the village, they ask me, 'Bābujī, iṁrej kakhan... (in Bengali asking "When will the English return?')." So (Hindi). The mass of people, they're for foreigners' rule: "Come and rule over us." Because the mass of people they have no sense of politics. Anyone may come and let them rule, we don't mind. Whatever little tax you want, you take, that's all right. The mass of people is like that. They are not concerned in politics. Under the circumstances, a democracy is not suitable for India. Long ago that Lord Curzon, he suggested this, that in India monarchy is better. He suggested that some of the royal family members should become King of India. It will be welcome. And our country, all along this monarchy was there. Democracy is idea now, but the monarch up to Parīkṣit Mahārāja, they were ideal, rājarṣi. People have so much faith in the monarch that whatever he does, it is right. Naradeva. Of course, nowadays things have changed. Krishna Modi: There is no difference. In the name of democracy this is the same thing. That's all. Prabhupāda: No, democracy means the people must have political sense. Then democracy is there. If the people have no political sense, artificially they are giving vote, that democracy... Anyway, we are not political man, but so far whatever it may be, to change the present situation, I am confident if this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is taken seriously in India there will be very, very good thing. That is absolute. So we can take up this work provided there is little cooperation from the government. Krishna Modi: Correct. So I will come to Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Jaya. (end) *Morning Walk-*-August 31, 1976, Delhi *Prabhupāda: Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ [Bg. 7.8]. "I am the sunshine and moonshine." You cannot see sunshine and moonshine? Indian man: But sir, the sunshine is the hiraṇyagarbha. That too is the product. That is material. There is something beyond the sunshine. Prabhupāda: For God there is nothing material. For God... Indian man (2): I think that's what *Īśopaniṣad* says. Om īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Prabhupāda: Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. So what is material? Indian man (2): Yat kiñca jagatyāṁ jagat tena tyaktena bhuñjīthāḥ. Prabhupāda: If it is sarvam, then what is material? Indian man (2): Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthāḥ. Prabhupāda: That is another for you. Indian man (2): (laughs) It's all right. Children: This way! This way! This way! This way! This way! Hari-śauri: This is it. The car's this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Indian man: Okay child. Hari-śauri: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...simply, prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ. Why they cannot see? Here is prabhā of the sūrya. Where is the difficulty? Prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. [break] ...this man thinks about death? Indian man (3): Well, modernized man is mostly either afraid of the death or he doesn't know of the death. Prabhupāda: Afraid of death everyone. There is no doubt. Unless he's a madman. Indian man (3): But then a... I don't think anybody believes he will be afraid even there is a change of birth or change of body. Prabhupāda: They may say so, but actually they are. As soon as there is some signal of death they are very much disturbed. Indian man (3): I don't think one should be afraid of death. Prabhupāda: No, afraid means... Indian man (3): Because this is something which has to come. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. But nobody wants to die. That is a fact. Indian man (3): But then you feel that when you feel like living anything in the life you feel after some time that he must have a change. So this is also... [break] ...feel that this is a change. Prabhupāda: That change he doesn't want. Indian man (4): But modernized man is more busy in his own life. When only he gets into bad time then he thinks "What is this?" But otherwise I think he has no time to think of these things. Devotee (British): They think once you're dead you're dead and that is the end of it. They don't... They think "We'll enjoy now and we shall die and that's the finish." If you say to somebody, "Have you heard about reincarnation?" "I do not believe in this." Many people in the West cannot accept that the soul will transcend into another body, move on or move down. To them it's fantasy and humbug. This is why they are afraid. They are... Indian man (3): This is same reincarnation. They think that he has gone. I won't be going, so I'll keep everything with me. We attend so many places where people die and we think, "Oh, he is gone but maybe I am not going to go." Devotee: The ancient Egyptians used to put all their treasures... Indian man (3): We don't understand that "All right, this is the end." So why not we understand and think in that line? That day you said that by chanting he thinks that he's chanting, maybe other people don't chant. So they don't know that they have to go. They think they are going to survive here only. They don't want to accept that they have to go, I think. Prabhupāda: That means they do not want death. That I have... Indian man (3): Yes. But definitely others are going and we won't go also. Prabhupāda: That means he doesn't want to die. That is a concoction. Other side is that he doesn't want to die. It is the expression of the same sentiment in a different way. Indian man (3): But then you see after the childhood and the young age and when he becomes old and after old also there is end you know, when he becomes helpless to do anything, then what is the use of having this body? Even your own relations, they'll feel that this is a burden. So at that time I think it's very good, that person himself should feel that all right, he must leave this body now. It's useless. Prabhupāda: No, he doesn't want. Indian man (3): No, some people don't want. Or many people don't want. There are a few, I think maybe one in thousand. Devotee: Does this mean Śrīla Prabhupāda, we should not speculate about the future. Like if someone says, "Next year we should do this," and so forth. And "Next month we'll go here and we'll do that." And people are always making arrangements for the future and what they are going to do. With nothing in mind that death will take them within a flash. And they're making all these speculative arrangements. Indian man (3): I personally feel that when you buy anything in the market, for example you buy a dress. Sometimes it wears for ten years, sometimes you are cheated and it wears only for two years. So this is also same way, you know. Sometimes early death means... Prabhupāda: That is for the dress. What about the man who's using the dress? You are identifying the dress with the man. That is foolishness. As soon as you say "dress," you should have to find out the man who has got the dress. Then it is perfect understanding. But if you understand the dress and the man the same, then you are foolish. Dress is not the man. Indian man (3): No, dress is not the soul, but dress is again the body. Prabhupāda: Dress is the body. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]. That is explained. This body is just like dress. So, but the dress is different from the man who puts on the dress. Indian man (3): Well, that is different. Man is different. Prabhupāda: The dress, it becomes old and it will be changed. Indian man (3): But dress is the body. Dress is the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: We have to put up with so much pain for it. You see, we're not this body and to forget that we're not this body, but still every minute we're given pain to remember that this body is there. Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: You stub your toe and it gives so much pain just for something so small. Prabhupāda: That you are eating? (pause) So water is wasted. Hari-śauri: Yes, it's dripping still. Indian man (3): Tap must not be working. [break] Devotee: ...so the front is always full of water for people, birds to take. But all the water is dripping over the side and it's being wasted on the ground. [break] *Prabhupāda: Rādhā*-Vallabha, it is offered to Rādhā-Vallabha. Hari-śauri: What's that made from, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: There's a kind of puri with some filling, dāl. Hari-śauri: Ah, kacuri? Prabhupāda: It is not kacuri. Devotee: Prabhupāda, you've taught so... [break] ...instruction for cooking this prasādam. Prabhupāda: I have seen, I have seen. In our family, I know. That's all. But from my childhood it is my nature, if somebody is preparing, I see it. Devotee: It seems to me that most people in India can cook something. Even if there's just cāpāṭis they can do this. But people in the West, they now are so helpless. They buy everything it seems in packets and you would not know how to prepare any food as much as just to cut the packet and pour it out and even then they don't even know how to put water into the pan. Prabhupāda: They do not know how to eat on the whole. India knows how to eat. (Pause) I have traveled all over the world, and this is my experience. Nobody knows how to eat. Devotee: Nowhere at all, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Only India. [break] ...every province they have got different dishes. Because the woman, they are trained up how to cook very nice. Devotee: I even see these boys when I was in Chandigarh, in a dish next door to the temple we were starting there. Prabhupāda: Woman is meant for that purpose, how to make nice palatable dishes. Devotee: Just these young boys who were carrying the bricks every morning, they would prepare their own vegetables and cāpāṭis like this, and I was amazed to see this because you would never get anyone doing this... *Prabhupāda: Jaya. In Bengal there is a ceremony after marriage, bahu*-bhāta. (?)The newly married girl, she shall cook, and all the relatives, friends, are invited and they appreciate, "Yes, nice cook." Then she is accepted as member of the whole family. Bahu-bhāta. Devotee: And if not, Prabhupāda? If her cooking is not... Prabhupāda: Therefore she is trained up. Devotee: And if she's not trained up. *Prabhupāda: She must be trained up. Just like Rādhārāṇī, She was trained up in sixty*-four arts. Do you think to captivate Kṛṣṇa is easy thing? How much qualified She must have been so that Kṛṣṇa was attracted. (loud laughing in background) What is this? Indian man (3): Laughing is also exercise. Devotee: Standing in a ring. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Indian man (3): Exercise they are doing. To laugh loudly you know that is also exercise. Devotee: It's a form of prāṇāyāma. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: A form of prāṇāyāma, breathing. The scientists, or doctors, say it takes so many muscles in the body to laugh and so many to frown, and it takes less to laugh, so they say why waste energy? Everyone should laugh instead of frowning all the time and be happy. [break] Prabhupāda: ...Ninth Canto, I shall take up Eleventh and Twelfth. Devotee: Someone was explaining about these Cantos that you start like the feet from Kṛṣṇa and as you read through the Cantos you slowly move up the body of Kṛṣṇa and the Twelfth Canto is the... Prabhupāda: Head. Devotee: Is His head. The Twelfth Canto must be a really beautiful book, too. (Hindi) (end) *Evening Darçana-*-September 1, 1976, Delhi *Prabhupāda: ...required to kill somebody, he'll do that. If it is required for his sense gratification. There are many instances that a woman is addicted to another man and she has killed her husband, killed her son. Why? Sense gratification. I have seen one woman, my Godbrother's wife, she killed her son for being implicated with another man. I have seen it. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Things which are not to be done, they do it. Why? For the matter of sense gratification. They do it. That's a fact. So therefore simply for sense gratification they are prepared to do anything. That means pāpa. It is the verdict of the court that when a man kills another man he becomes mad. Without becoming mad a man cannot kill another man. So everything is being done which is not sanctioned because for sense gratification. The whole world is (indistinct) is sense gratification. And at the end, when he's little spiritually inclined, he wants to satisfy senses by thinking artificially that "I shall become God." That is the greatest sense gratification. "Because remaining a small living entity I have been hampered in my sense gratification. Now let me become God so that there will be no restriction of my sense gratification." Bhagavān (indistinct). Because he has failed to satisfy his senses remaining non*-Bhagavān, now he wants to become Bhagavān. Yogi, that is also another sense gratification. That if I show some magic, if I can create little gold like this, hundreds and thousands of men will be after me and I shall live, very nicely. Gratify my senses. These things are going on practically. The man who is manufacturing gold, and so many rich people are coming to his disciples and he's begging for a motor car. If he can create gold, why he cannot create a motor car? This is going on. (Hindi) Guest: Apnāra praśna hai? (Hindi conversation continues for some time) Prabhupāda: But so far you must fix up, what you want. Guest: What is realization? Prabhupāda: Realization, everything is realization. If you can do business well, that is also realization. Guest: Realization of God. Prabhupāda: Then you, if you want... Guest: Realization of God. Prabhupāda: Realization of God, (Hindi), bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. So if you want to know me, then bhaktyā, bhakti. (Hindi) Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. If you want to know God really, then you have to take this path, bhakti. If you want something else, that is a different thing. Prabhupāda: Find out this verse. (Hindi) Somebody, you can read? (rings bell) (more Hindi) Somebody... Why don't you send? What they are doing? All these rascals, that they cannot read. Devotee: Someone should come in? Prabhupāda: Yes. But they do not know that somebody should remain here. Why are there? What they are doing there? Hari-śauri: Harikeśa is typing. Pradyumna is reading Sanskrit books. *Prabhupāda: Send Pradyumna immediately. Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām avyaktasakta*-cetasam. Kleśa. Beginning with kleśa. You could not? Kleśa. K-l-e-s. Why don't you come here? And who will find out? Come here. Devotee: Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām? *Prabhupāda: Why do you say that you do not find? Find out. They are not accustomed. Kleśo'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta*-cetasām [Bg. 12.5]. (Hindi) Read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Ah. Avyaktā hi gatir duḥkham. (Hindi) Read it. Pradyumna: "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied." Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) You are expecting happiness by thinking of impersonal form of the Lord. That is not possible. You simply get troubles, that's all. (Hindi) What is the purport? *Pradyumna: "The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jñāna*-yogis, and persons who are in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord are called bhakti-yogis. Now here the difference between jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed." *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa personally says bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. (Hindi) If you like to tolerate adi*-kleśa, that is your choice. Otherwise, Bhagavān, sac-cid-ānanda... Indian man (1): Your Divine Grace, how long are you staying in Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: I'm going to... Oh, Vṛndāvana, three weeks. Indian man (1): Where are you spending your... Prabhupāda: Any time in your home. Indian man (1): Any time (indistinct) which is convenient to Your Grace. I'll come over to Vṛndāvana on the 15th evening. 15th evening, I'll come over to Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Indian man (1): And then what is the program? Your Divine Grace is coming back to Delhi? From Vṛndāvana after three weeks? Prabhupāda: They have made program to go to Chandigarh. *Indian man (1): Chandigarh. (indistinct) The route is almost the same distance from here to Vṛndāvana. 5 miles, 8 miles difference. Not much difference mileage*-wise. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. The road is okay. You said we should go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh? Indian man (2): In my opinion you should. That road is very bad. Five or six kilometers they have raised the road by about six or seven feet and all this is all mud and muck and the car skids. In my opinion you go via Aligarh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Or we can come to Aligarh from Vṛndāvana. Indian man (2): Suggest to go back to Vṛndāvana and then come. (Hindi) (Gopāla Kṛṣṇa converses with Indians about which road to take) (More Hindi) *Prabhupāda: He, her son he is the father and mother, he's an Indian, in Detroit, very good boy, getting very nice. He, living in the temple, husband wife, child we have. Bacā, ek bacā? He's getting very happy, very nice boy. (Hindi) Just like their son, he's educated very nicely. Educated boys are joining, from foreign countries and not from here. (Hindi) Here is Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, he was sales manager in Coca*-cola. (Hindi) ...dollar, he has given. (Hindi for some time) You have bought that book? Ah. Stillson Judah's? Pradyumna: No. It's in Bombay. We may have a copy in Vṛndāvana also. *Prabhupāda: One professor, Stillson Judah, he has written one book. After studying our movement five years he has written one, "Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counter*-culture." "Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counter-culture." (Hindi) Pradyumna: Doesn't have a copy here. It's published by Princeton University Press. In their religion... In their set of volumes on different religions. Indian woman: Prasāda (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: I am going to Vṛndāvana tomorrow. (Hindi) I'll be three weeks there. (hindi) Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa*-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. (Hindi) As He is worshipable, similarly, Vṛndāvana dhāma is also worshipable. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam ramya kācid upāsana vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā va kalpitā. Upāsana vraja-vadhū, the vraja, damsels of vrajabhūmi, the gopīs, as they worship the Lord, there is no comparison to that process of worship. Vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvana. Indian man (3): ...we are going there after Parliament session tomorrow. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: They spend so much money for the roadways, still it is not good. Indian man (3): Draining is different levels arising water (indistinct) in excessive in quantity, and the natural drains are not efficient enough to take it out. I was told that... Prabhupāda: There is no sufficient outlet. *Indian man (3): Yes. But some of those āśrama, Mathurā, it's very deep, that four feet water in the āśramas. Three*-four feet water. Prabhupāda: Within the āśramas? Indian man (3): And temple. Pradyumna: Our temple is all right. Raman Reti is not flooded where we are. It's almost up to Fogel Ashram in the back, Yamunā, but it has not come to our Raman Reti. Indian man (3): And now you will remain here in India for some time? Prabhupāda: That I do not know. I, actually, now it is little troublesome for me to travel all the year. Indian man (3): You are just gone from (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Rest, if I rest then there may be... Because I am dealing with all neophytes. If I don't keep them alive by personal presence... Still they are doing nice. I have appointed twenty secretaries all over the world. I am training them. They are managing. Managing nicely. I have been in New York and Los Angeles and Hawaii, all big, big centers. London, Paris. Indian man (3): Oh, it's a very great. Your program for Kurukṣetra and etc. and the... Prabhupāda: Program was that they promised to give me land. Indian man (3): Who? Prabhupāda: That chief minister. Indian man (3): Have they done so? Prabhupāda: Not yet. *Indian man (3): I had about 2 acres was available, except that. (talks about land he owns*-indistinct) *Prabhupāda: We are trying for another big scheme in Bengal. We have applied to the government to acquire land, 350 acres, a big planetarium. Planetarium. We have described the planetarium in our Fifth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. In that planetarium it is said that the moon is above the sun planet. By one million six hundred thousand miles. Indian man (3): What does astronomy say? The modern astronomy. Prabhupāda: They say the moon planet is nearer to earth planet and they have gone there. Indian man (3): No, no, have you given up the idea of Kurukṣetra? Prabhupāda: No, no, not... *Indian man (3): No, because if you have the idea, the land is the least part of it because so much is to be done, if the idea is that something should be done. I learned that gentleman, Mr. (indistinct) ...and he has said that he will do something. I was not there at the time of the (talks about himself*-very low, hard to hear) Prabhupāda: You bring one little plate prasādam from there, from that... Indian man (3): You will be in Vṛndāvana for some... Prabhupāda: Three weeks. Indian man (3): After that you don't know. After that where you go, you don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): Well, this is God's work, Lord Kṛṣṇa's work. I am trying (indistinct) to cooperate with you because nobody can do. Prabhupāda: No, you have done tremendous work. Indian man (3): No, but which is very little considering the situation, the condition, problem (in the) country. I am at a lower level than your level than your work (indistinct). Prabhupāda: The one encouraging thing in this movement is that our books are being very much appreciated. In all universities, foreign and Indian, libraries, professors, learned scholars. Indian man (3): Yes, they'll branch out and... It's a great service. Prabhupāda: We are selling books to the extent of sixty thousand dollars daily. That is our only hope, that we shall not be financially in difficulty. People are taking our books very nicely. People are accepting our literature. *Indian man (3): It is not that difficulties were not there (indistinct). I don't have the support, but I feel (indistinct) find that several places the demand for this for the acceptance of (indistinct) also not in the manner in which I had wanted. (indistinct) ...lakhs of people stand against (indistinct) religion and moral side. There should be a linking up of all those who want religion to remain and morality to also be there. Those forces have to be met by also organized force from the right kind of people (goes on giving his own opinions*-indistinct) ...I hope you are not coming in your way. Prabhupāda: No, no. Indian man (3): I remember that you had written yourself that there is something we can do together. Possibly this question, building and all that. (indistinct) It is good to have that building and that land, but even before that there is work to be done at the Kurukṣetra. *Prabhupāda: My point is that Kurukṣetra is the place where Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken. So if we take the words of Bhagavad-gita as it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa, then people will be benefitted. But if we do not take the words of Bhagavad-gītā, then moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ [Bg. 9.12]. That I believe. Find out this verse. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo. Indian man (3): That's true. I also believe that there must be a direct... Prabhupāda: No, why not direct? Indian man (3): Putting in your interpretation, that is wrong. It should be direct. That doesn't mean only those people who have accepted this can come together. Prabhupāda: And why the others will not accept? Indian man (3): No, we have made, you must have seen our literature, *Gītā* as a text, but still people may not judge... Prabhupāda: No, no, we should not depend on the people's acceptance only. We have to present *Gītā* as it is. Now everything is not accepted by everyone. Even if you make change, there is no guarantee that they will... Indian man (3): No, no. Prabhupāda: No, no I am not speaking to you. Anyone. Indian man (3): I am not trying to make a show. I believe a direct interpretation is important thing more than the other kinds of ideas and conceptions. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Go on, go on. I have given any purport? Indian man (3): I was reading this yesterday, the Eleventh Chapter. There are twelve, twelve chapters. There Kṛṣṇa Bhagavān had a dialogue with Uddhava. *Pradyumna: He's referring to Ekādaśa*-skandha of the Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Uddhava. Indian man (3): And there I felt, I thought that whenever we meet I'll bring up this question with you. 'Cause the way in which it has been translated in Hindi which I read it does create a little question as to what Bhagavān Himself said about the status of the soul, the individual soul, and relationship, (indistinct). Because although I think I should have got it, they don't give it to the life members. *Pradyumna: Yes, Bhāgavatam, we're up to the Seventh Canto now in the printing. Yes, the canto has come out. So Saptama*-skandha, pādyokta. We're up to that. Indian man (3): Now, well then if it is, if the member is (indistinct). Now in the Eleventh there is... Prabhupāda: Eleventh Canto, yes. When you will remember the verse? Indian man (3): No, no, number (indistinct) again and again I had gone to (indistinct) and as to that, ultimately there is no difference. As soon as this (indistinct) when it comes. I would like this because I belong to the sect of our country, middle sect, from Swami Narayana. He's based on Rāmānujācārya philosophy which says that all the souls are there, they are the body of the creator Bhagavān. Just as the human ātmā has a body, this means there is the difference also identity. Identity is one and yet they have their own place. That have been the faith (indistinct). Now in many places this sometimes this differentiation remains, sometimes there is things said which wipe it out. I thought you would be the best person to give a guidance... *Prabhupāda: As you say that, Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad*-gita, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. We living entities, we are part and parcel of God. Aṁśa. So any common man can understand.... (end) *Morning Walk-*-September 2, 1976, New Delhi Caraṇāravindam: ...Kṛṣṇa. So how are we to understand the name of the spiritual master. In kīrtana when we chant the name of the spiritual master, is that as spiritually potent? Lokanātha: You have to understand the position of Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava's position is far far greater than the demigods. Demigods, they shower flowers on the Vaiṣṇavas. So they are very exalted personalities, especially the spiritual master. There's no comparison of the spiritual master with any entities in the universe or brahmāṇḍa. As Prabhupāda's purport has said many places: "The spiritual master is the external manifestation of the Supersoul, Paramātmā within your heart." Paramātmā is Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, and He becomes manifest before you in form of a guru or spiritual master. So you cannot compare a spiritual master or guru with any other... Prabhupāda: No, his question is why the demigods... Just like Lord Brahmā, he is the original spiritual master. So why the demigods should not be equal to the spiritual master. That is his question. Is it not? Caraṇāravindam: Yes. Lokanātha: They are not equal to the spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Why? That is his question. Lokanātha: As you are explaining in your scriptures that the spiritual master is Paramātmā externally manifested but do not in case of other demigods. Prabhupāda: Why the spiritual master is given so exalted position than the demigods? That should be the answer. Demigods, they are also Vaiṣṇava, mostly. Lokanātha: They are not pure devotees. Prabhupāda: They are also devotees. Lokanātha: But their devotion is mixed devotion. *Prabhupāda: No. Just like Lord Brahmā. We belong to the Brahmā*-sampradāya. Brahmā is the original spiritual master after Kṛṣṇa. Brahmā, then Nārada, then Vyāsadeva-like that. So all of them are gurus, ācāryas. So why spiritual master is honored as good as the Supreme Lord? Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstraiḥ. Why? That should be his question: Why spiritual master is given the supreme post than all others? Sākṣād-dharitvena-as good as God. Why? Is it not? It is clear, his question. First of all, is this his question? Caraṇāravindam: Yes, this is the question. Prabhupāda: So what is the answer? Lokanātha: The spiritual master is very much concerned about our personal welfare. They are the present ācāryas in the paramparā... Prabhupāda: He gives direct knowledge of Kṛṣṇa; therefore he's as good as Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... Hmm? Hari-śauri: I was just telling him to fan just when there's flies just to scatter. Prabhupāda: You are tired now? No? Indian man: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: You can climb on the tree? No. Let me see. (children laughing) It is better than that path. Hari-śauri: This one? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not so crowded. That path is very crowded. [break] Lokanātha: ...five thousand years back, until now, there's only thirty ācāryas... *Prabhupāda: Chain is broken when there are false spiritual masters. Otherwise it is not broken. Chain is broken if a so*-called spiritual master speaks something manufactured. Then the chain is broken. Otherwise chain is not broken. Devotee: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: No, you could not. [break] Uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya: ** "The spiritual master is as good as God because he's very dear to Kṛṣṇa." He's preaching Kṛṣṇa's mission, and Kṛṣṇa is very, very pleased with him. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya*-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. That is spiritual master's qualification. He's trying his best to deliver the soul from these clutches of māyā. That is a great service. Therefore he is very dear. One who is chanting or executing devotional service for his personal benefit and one who is trying to deliver others for others' benefit, there is difference. Caraṇāravindam: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Isn't it the case that for some people then when the disciplic succession is lost, because if you're following a false guru... For example, your teachings now will always be on the planet. There will be other gurus who present some false teaching. So does that mean that for some people the disciplic succession is there and some people it's not there? If they're following a false guru does that mean they've lost the disciplic succession? Prabhupāda: Oh, there is a good boy. Nāma? Kapila: Kapila. Prabhupāda: Kapila. Oh, Kapiladeva. (end) *Garden Conversation-*-September 3, 1976, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: ...with some Indian wife they were called Eurasian, and Englishman marrying Indian wife they were called Anglo*-Indian. There was a big Anglo-Indian community and they were given good facilities by the Britishers for government jobs, railways. In railway, almost cent percent. The driver, the guard, the ticket inspector, all, means, semi-important jobs, they were all given to these Anglo-Indians. Because they were not very much educated. And officers, they were all Britishers. Officers, secretaries. And Indians were clerks. Indians, they were accepted as clerks only. No officers. In military, Indian Sikhs and Gurkha, especially Sikhs, they were very valiant. Still they are valiant. They were given the post of captain. Not general. General all Englishmen. Caraṇāravindam: I have seen many Sikh soldiers. They're very big. They're very noble looking soldiers. Prabhupāda: They're very, martial race. Practically, the Britishers expanded their empire with these Sikh soldiers and Gurkha soldiers. Hari-śauri: The Gurkha, they're very... Caraṇāravindam: And Nepalese soldiers. Prabhupāda: Nepalese. They are very brave. Hari-śauri: Yes, they're very renowned. Prabhupāda: Sikhs are very brave. They're martial. And another martial race, Jats. They are kṣatriyas. Oh, they can fight... When Britishers possessed India they organized this military with Sikhs especially, Jats, and Gurkhas. And they expanded their empire, Burma, Ceylon, Africa, all these British Empire possessions. And not only that, they fought two big world wars with these Sikhs soldiers. They conquered over this Mesopotamia, Middle East. Caraṇāravindam: They worked so hard. It's a pity they weren't doing it for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: They like military. They want military jobs. Very kṣatriya spirit. Caraṇāravindam: They collected so much, but they lost it because they didn't give it to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Ah, their bad policy that they wanted India for Britishers' benefit. That is not duty of the government. Government should be for the welfare of the people. Then that government will continue. But they exploited the Indian people for the benefit of their own countrymen. That is the failure. That policy was not good. Therefore they finished within two hundred years. They began their ruling 1775, like that. And 1947... Not even two hundred years. Caraṇāravindam: And now nothing. Prabhupāda: Now, after losing India, they have no more British Empire. Because they cannot maintain without Indian soldiers. Therefore they voluntarily left. Caraṇāravindam: I used to see in my grandmother's house, in her front room she used to keep special... Prabhupāda: Where? In London? Caraṇāravindam: That was in Yorkshire, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yorkshire. Caraṇāravindam: Yorkshire, near his birthplace. Prabhupāda: You are also Yorkshire? Hari-śauri: Almost. Just near, Lincoln. *Caraṇāravindam: And in her front room she had many things that my great*-grandfather collected... Prabhupāda: ...from India. Caraṇāravindam: From India, yes. And then his son, my grandfather, he was also a soldier. He was a captain, and he was in India and in Hong Kong, and China, Tinsing. And he collected many things. He was also in the Boer War. Prabhupāda: And your father? Caraṇāravindam: He was born in Tinsing. My father's family was there, where he's serving. Then he became later, he was a commander in the Royal Navy. Prabhupāda: Oh, he was engaged in the Navy. Caraṇāravindam: Yes. Prabhupāda: Practically all your family is military. Caraṇāravindam: Yes. Now he is retired. He is living in... Prabhupāda: Your father is living? How does he like you have become Vaiṣṇava? Caraṇāravindam: At first he would not even speak to me. Then I used to visit next door and my mother would come to see me. And then after awhile he would talk to me from the other side and I quickly used to go and see. I would sit down. I would not preach to him. I would just be social. Prabhupāda: After all, father and son, affection, where it will go? Caraṇāravindam: Now he likes. He says, "This is better what you are doing than all the other things you were doing." I've not seen him now for three and a half years since I left England. They are a little sick now. Prabhupāda: What is the age of your father? *Caraṇāravindam: Sixty*-five I think. Prabhupāda: Grandfather died. Caraṇāravindam: Yes. (indistinct) when I used to go in the temple there... Prabhupāda: Grandfather was living at that time? Caraṇāravindam: No, when I was a little boy I used to see him. We were very close. He used to take me for walks, like this, and then he died. And grandmother lived long time and then she died. But she would not leave the family... Prabhupāda: His grandmother is still living. Your grandfather also living? Hari-śauri: Yes. Caraṇāravindam: They live long time. Much longer it seems than in Midlands, Midlands and Yorkshire. They would quite often live much longer. *Prabhupāda: His grandfather is of my age. I think two*-three years older. Hari-śauri: He's the same age as yourself, about 81. *Prabhupāda: Here, all my disciples, they're of my grandsons' age. Their father may be my son's age, father, mother. My grandson is thirty*-two years old. Granddaughter, she is also about 25. *Caraṇāravindam: It seems strange. Life seems to go by so quickly. A few years ago it seems to my mind I was a little boy. Now I'm 32 and my father and mother are sixty*-five and they will soon leave their body and it is all going rush, rush, rush. It will seem, a few more years time I will look back, "Oh, when I was 32 and walking round." Hari-śauri: At least we're not wasting our lives now. Caraṇāravindam: Yes. Prabhupāda: My granddaughter, she came to see me in Māyāpura. So I was remembering just the other day she was child and walking, catching my hand. Now she is mother of two children. (Someone comes by) Who is he? Hari-śauri: He's the carpenter. Caraṇāravindam: Very good fellow. *Prabhupāda: Carpenter. So it is nice. When there is rain I can lie down here. When it is raining, to lie down in a cottage like this is very pleasing. At least in this country. Tuk*-tuk-tuk-tuk-raining, not very forcibly. Caraṇāravindam: A little shower. Prabhupāda: Shower, yes. Oh, it is very pleasing. So this place is very nice. Caraṇāravindam: You like this... Prabhupāda: Oh yes. You have got idea. You have all done nice. Nobody (laughs) got this idea. You have done nice. Caraṇāravindam: I wanted to make you a beautiful palace. Prabhupāda: You can fix up a little fan, then this labor can be saved. Caraṇāravindam: You would like electric fan or hand pulled. Hand pulled? Prabhupāda: No no, electric. A small table fan. Just like in the railway carriage. Let them fix up. Small ceiling fan. Hari-śauri: You can get very small ones that fasten on the front of motor cars on the inside for fanning the driver. Just a small unit. Caraṇāravindam: I was wanting to, in the future, build you a very beautiful construction here. Prabhupāda: No, it is all right. Caraṇāravindam: You like this. I thought you would also... Prabhupāda: This is made simple. It is very nice. Rather, you can... No, it is all right. There is no space. In India, on the roof, we allow to grow squash. Caraṇāravindam: You would like some growing? Prabhupāda: Very small. Caraṇāravindam: I plan to grow mālatī up this side. Prabhupāda: You grow, on the thatched roof they grow squash. Hari-śauri: I think they were doing that in Māyāpura. There was one big plant growing on the... Prabhupāda: So that the family can get one squash, that is sufficient for family. Vegetable. People used to live formerly without any worries. Everything was so easily available, at least foodstuffs. They had no anxiety. Caraṇāravindam: Little effort, just basic, a little work and... Prabhupāda: They got their own paddy from the field, milk, some vegetables. Those who are fish eaters, they have got small lake, fish. Whole family without any... "Where I shall get money?" "How shall I eat?" These things were absent. Even the poor man. Caraṇāravindam: Actually I have seen that even in all these villages in Africa and India, they have no real connection to the city politics. Because if the city breaks down they could move back to... They have their cow, they have field, vegetables... *Prabhupāda: If there is war they were not affected. And the soldiers would not bother the public. It is said during Mohammedan period the soldiers of one party will ask the cultivator, "Where the other soldiers gone?" They would say, "I have seen and they have gone this side." The cultivator is going on. The fighting is going on, but the cultivator is not affected. He is free. "You fight between themselves and whoever the victor is, I shall pay taxes. That's all. I have nothing to do with politics." This was... Between two parties of king or political, they may fight. Citizens, they have nothing to do who is the victorious. "You fight and one of you will become victorious. So you take taxes. I am concerned with paying tax. And tax, tax means whatever I have grown, you take one*-fourth. You see this I have grown. Now you can take away one-fourth." No income tax, no sale tax, no this tax or that tax. And if some year, by chance, he has not grown anything-no tax. "I have not produced, I could not produce anything." Very simple. Soldiers, they were not paid. They were given land by the king. "You enjoy this land without any price. But when there is fight you have to come out." Fight is not going every day. It may take place after some years. So they are living peacefully. Caraṇāravindam: It was similar in old England in the knights' time. Prabhupāda: That is the whole world history. Now they have made encumbrance. Naturally, a class of men, they became soldiers. They were trained up, and... Caraṇāravindam: Whenever I visited a village in India, people were always very friendly. "Sit down, take some meal." Or if I walk through a field they will pick something from a tree, some tomatoes, or some vegetables and give it to me. Prabhupāda: You can grow some tomatoes here. That is a very easy thing. Caraṇāravindam: I have also some and some different seeds to plant. Prabhupāda: Tomato, squash. Caraṇāravindam: You would like to see growing in your garden a little sabji? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very... Cucumber. These things can be grown very easily. And zucchini. Called zucchini? Hari-śauri: Yes. It's like a small marrow, zucchini. Caraṇāravindam: I would like to get, I don't know... Prabhupāda: No, there is not much place here. Caraṇāravindam: Some things we can grow. Prabhupāda: But this green banana if we get that will be nice. Caraṇāravindam: These should flower soon, these bananas. They are one year old now. Within the next six months they should give some flowers. Prabhupāda: So it is very pleasing spot. You have done nice. I'm feeling nice. Hari-śauri: Your pleasure is our pleasure. Caraṇāravindam: It is your mercy. It is ecstasy to come in here and do something on the garden for you. Very good. I want to see lotuses growing. Then I will be happy. Nice lotuses. When I can pick a lotus and give to you, then it is nice. Then it is finished. Lilies, lotus, nice bushes, very happy inside. This grass has just been laid and I think after two weeks it will be very first class. Prabhupāda: Nobody should walk. Caraṇāravindam: No. I have still this section here to finish of nice turf. And then watering twice a day. Prabhupāda: And due to this fountain it will be very nice, green always. Caraṇāravindam: And I will sprinkle it with gobar water. Gobar mixed with water and sprinkle. That will be good for... Prabhupāda: Is there any good painter here? Hari-śauri: Artist? Who is here? Prabhupāda: Artist? Caraṇāravindam: Devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. Caraṇāravindam: One new boy that just came. Prabhupāda: So I want his service. I want to paint that picture which is published in that French Back to Godhead. Hari-śauri: Oh. The portrait? Prabhupāda: Not portrait. That I was beating on my... What is called? That dundubhi we call it. What do you call this. Bango? Bang? Hari-śauri: Oh, gong? Prabhupāda: Not gong. It is one side covered with skin. Caraṇāravindam: Like a tambourine. Hari-śauri: No, it's... You mean a drum... *Prabhupāda: Drum. Not two*-sides. One side. *Hari-śauri: Like a tom*-tom drum. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that picture is very nice. If somebody paints it will be... Caraṇāravindam: I wish I could make the mālatī grow faster and the ratnavani.(?) I wish I could make it grow faster to give perfume. It is not like painting a picture. You can paint the flower and the creeper and the tree very quickly, but when you are growing it and you have the idea and no plant, it takes so many years for it to come to a finish. *Prabhupāda: And who is growing it? That is Kṛṣṇa's hand. His hand is working invisibly. Kṛṣṇa's hand is there. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. "I am giving direction to the nature and she is manufacturing." That's a fact. Caraṇāravindam: And He paints wonderful flowers with perfume. Prabhupāda: Anything, anything. Kṛṣṇa is giving dictation, "Do like this." Intelligence is of Kṛṣṇa. Caraṇāravindam: Lord Caitanya, He had the mango tree grow almost instantly with His direction. Prabhupāda: Yes. He can do that because He is Kṛṣṇa. Immediately He can do. That is His inconceivable energy. Now by medical treatment man is made into woman, and woman is made man. Is it not? Hari-śauri: Yes, there was that article in the Blitz the other day. Prabhupāda: So formerly, by simply desire of very exalted person like Lord Śiva and others, they could turn a man into woman, woman into man. Hari-śauri: I heard a story, Viśvāmitra once he grew people from trees. Is that correct? *Prabhupāda: Everything is possible by Kṛṣṇa's inconceivable energy. Everything is possible. That is inconceivable. It is called therefore "inconceivable." You, we cannot conceive how it is done. Our intelligence is very little. We cannot conceive. Therefore we say, "Oh, this is all mythology." Because we cannot conceive of it. Whatever we cannot conceive we take it as mythology. Nothing is mythology. Everything is possible. That is inconceivable. But they cannot understand what is inconceivable. Unless it is conceivable by them, they do not accept. That is their foolishness. We can see at night worms or flies so small Just like if you divide one grain of rice into one hundred divisions one division*-such a small fly. They are independently walking, flying. Freedom. Now just imagine how their anatomic physiology is manufactured within that small (indistinct) of life. But he's exactly doing everything just like a big fly. How it is doing? Therefore I said in that, my interview. Hari-śauri: Oh. "They can manufacture a jumbo jet but they can't make a mosquito. Neither can they supply the pilot." *Prabhupāda: And the mosquito is with the pilot. They are manufacturing jumbo 747 plane. It requires a pilot separately. But Kṛṣṇa is manufacturing an airplane, mosquito*-everything complete, with pilot. This is inconceivable. You can manufacture a big airplane. The pilot is separate. You cannot manufacture the pilot. Kṛṣṇa is manufacturing not only the smallest airplane, but with a pilot. This is inconceivable. Caraṇāravindam: Also he makes those, you wrote in the *Bhāgavatam* there are those giant birds that fly in space. Prabhupāda: And there will be hundreds and thousands mosquitos, they will fly. There will be no accident. Hari-śauri: No collisions. Prabhupāda: No. Anywhere it will be... Not only flies. The birds, when they flock together, so there is no collision. And they very forcibly go like this, this, this, this, all together, but you won't find one accident. And this is Kṛṣṇa's inconceivable energy. What you can do? You cannot fly hundreds of planes at a time. There will be at least three, four accidents. Caraṇāravindam: They have great difficulty doing these air displays. Many planes flying together, these air displays. There is so much difficulty for them. A lot of them, they have accidents. Also... Prabhupāda: Formerly I used to see three, four, more than four flies going together. Nowadays I do not see. Caraṇāravindam: Flies. Prabhupāda: No, aeroplanes. During wartime when they used to come to bombard they used to come in four, five together because the enemies, they used to shot down. So if one is shot down the other will be bombing. Caraṇāravindam: You wrote in the *Bhāgavatam*, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that in outer space there are those giant birds like eagle. Very, very big. Giant size. Enormous. Prabhupāda: They go from one planet to another. Caraṇāravindam: It is like a big plane. Bigger than jet. Prabhupāda: And while flying they lay down eggs. And the eggs, while falling down, they become birds. By the, what is called? Hari-śauri: Friction? Prabhupāda: No, no. When they, what it is called. Velocity of falling down, it becomes fomented, and then the birds come out. Just like parasites. No? Parachute? Hari-śauri: Yes, parachute. Prabhupāda: While falling down, it opens. This is God's creation. Inconceivable. And that aeroplane, flying machine, is so perfect. Caraṇāravindam: And it will find its own food. Prabhupāda: There are birds who can take away the elephant for eating. Such big birds. They can carry elephant like a small rat. Caraṇāravindam: Is such a bird the bird that was a servant of Sītā? *Prabhupāda: And monkey*-eating birds I have seen in Los Angeles. They go very high on the top of a tree and capture a monkey. And take him high and drop him. As soon as he falls he dies, then again comes down and eats it. Caraṇāravindam: We need one of those birds here to capture these monkeys. Prabhupāda: There are so many wonderful creations. That is God's inconceivable energy. (end) *Room Conversation-*-September 3, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: So, everything is going nice? Akṣayānanda: Yes, by your grace only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a very beautiful garden for you. Prabhupāda: Garden? Oh. Akṣayānanda: Guest house has improved very much. Now we have about twenty paying guests. And during Śrāvaṇa and Janmāṣṭamī it was completely full. Very, very encouraging. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually many of the life members were telling us, we met some in Delhi. They said they couldn't get the whole thing was full. Akṣayānanda: They were fighting to come. Prabhupāda: So, they are allowed three days free? Akṣayānanda: Only. Also book distribution has improved very much. Prabhupāda: Locally? Akṣayānanda: Here in the temple specifically. Haihaya has been concentrating very good. Prabhupāda: Hindi? Akṣayānanda: Yes, Hindi magazines and what we can get. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Viśāla alone does about two, three hundred every day. Akṣayānanda: Viśāla is... Prabhupāda: Where is our Viśvambhara? Viśvambhara is helping nicely? Akṣayānanda: Oh yes. 100%. [break] And French. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the new French *Bhāgavatam* on the back. Prabhupāda: Oh. I think I have seen it. Hari-śauri: Yes, that's the one we got in Paris, Bhagavān... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It looks very nice. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Bank is going nice? Akṣayānanda: The bank is all right. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) So the Gurukula building, how far? (Hindi) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When devotees come for Gaura*-Pūrṇimā... (Hindi) Prabhupāda: So let them come first of all here from Delhi. Indian devotee: They come first here. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Thing is, the whole thing has to be completed in three weeks because the American GBCs don't like... They think it is a very big loss financially. (Hindi) Book distribution stops completely. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Is that correct? Is that correct key? Hari-śauri: This one's for some of the locks on the doors. Prabhupāda: Which door? Hari-śauri: Ah, from the... I think it was one on the bedroom originally. They may have taken them off again. Prabhupāda: Find out the door. Indian man: (Hindi conversation with Prabhupāda) Prabhupāda: ...special quality, he's very tolerant. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's very cool. Indian man: (Hindi conversation for some time) Keep patience. I am not dishonest. Prabhupāda: Dishonest or not... (Hindi) Your family is very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Breakfast has come. Prabhupāda: No, I don't want. This man, he's not (indistinct). Jaya. Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: By your mercy Balarāmajī is giving. *Prabhupāda: Nitāiyer koruṇā habe braje rādhā*-kṛṣṇa pābe. These rascals they do not know. Nitāi, balarāma hoila nitāi. So without the mercy of Balarāma, nobody can appreciate Vṛndāvana life. Jaya. (end) *Room Conversation-*-September 4, 1976, Våndävana Harikeśa: Prabhupāda: This is sādhu. Not the dress. Now what is the... Harikeśa: "The symptoms of a sādhu are that he is tolerant, merciful, and friendly to all living entities. He has no enemies, he is peaceful, he abides by the scriptures, and all his characteristics are sublime." *Prabhupāda: This is sādhu. The first qualification is titikṣava. very tolerant. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has said kṣamā*-rūpaṁ tapasvinām. Those who are tapasvīs, their first duty is how much he is forgiving. How much he has learned to forgive. Kṣamā-rūpaṁ tapasvinām. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena [SB 6.1.13]. So what is the explanation? Prabhupāda: Where is this going on? (asking about banging sound) Hari-śauri: That's just the old reception room. Prabhupāda: What is it? Hari-śauri: They are making alterations. Prabhupāda: Alteration? What is that alteration? Hari-śauri: I don't know exactly what they're doing. Harikeśa: No, what they're doing is that room, everybody goes there, the guests all go there. So in the past it's just been a big empty wasted room. So now what they're doing is making it a big preaching room with photos all around and book tables set up in such a way that someone can just walk in that room and there's a whole exhibit for him to see... Prabhupāda: Who has gotten this idea? Harikeśa: I think Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. It's an exhibition room. Prabhupāda: Then they are breaking wall or what? Harikeśa: No, no, they're not breaking. They made a big door so that you can walk straight in from the outside. You saw that door yesterday. Now what they're doing is building shelves and bookcases. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That sound is disturbing. Harikeśa: Would you like them to stop it until you left? Prabhupāda: If stop then how their work will go on? They manufacture ideas and spend money. This is the difficulty. Everyone manufactures some idea. And break it, do it, dig it. Money is coming and they are spending it. They cannot adjust whatever is there. Big big ideas. Big big belly. And money we have to bring from America. "Give me one lakh, give me one lakh, 15,000. I make idea, you pay." So many rooms you can make showroom. Why breaking this door, breaking that door? Too many cooks spoils the broth. And repairing and, what is called, addition, alteration, will never stop. I do not know how to stop it. Now, the other, Yesterday that Viśvambhara said, you were here, no? Viśvambhara said, suggesting there should be raft (?) three feet high, seven feet high, this high... Everyone will suggest. And spend money. Any friend, you bring him, he'll suggest so that you may spend it. And wherefrom money will come? Oh, that is your look after. I am your friend, I am giving you good suggestion. Break it. Do it. I am your friend. You break your head. (laughs) There was a Mohammedan king, Raj Uddin or some... Nizamuddin. Nizamuddin there is a tomb in Delhi. He was poet. So if some friends come he would read some writing, and he will suggest, the friend will suggest, "Why don't you make like this." "Oh, it is good. All right." He'll do it. Whatever he says. And when he goes away, then again makes his own. So the secretary said, "Why you are changing?" "What can I do? Those... That is my friend. And that is nonsense; therefore I am again doing what I wrote." So we have to do that. As soon as you call anybody, he'll give you some suggestion. "Make this alteration, make this alteration." So description of the sādhu is there. It is very nice. Where they will find this description all over the world? Hm? Harikeśa: I think there's only one person who's following that description. *Prabhupāda: No, I say about Bhāgavata's description. How perfect it is in any subject matter. I have tried to explain what is there in the Bhāgavatam, expand it. That is not my explanation, that is Kṛṣṇa's explanation. I cannot explain now. That moment I could explain. That means Kṛṣṇa's... I can understand that. That the description is very nicely given. Although it is my writing, but I know it is not my writing. It is Kṛṣṇa's writing. So we should read Bhāgavatam always. Nityaṁ bhāgavata*-sevayā [SB 1.2.18]. We should not waste our time. So we have to check that closet. You can... [break] How they can say there is no God? Then you are only intelligent. All are fools. That means you are fool number one. If you think like that... Harikeśa: Yes, but in India... Prabhupāda: No, now you cannot say Indians. (laughs) Now we cannot say only Indians worship Kṛṣṇa. Whole world. That is God. They are not fools and rascals. They are educated, they are civilized. Why they accept Kṛṣṇa as God? Yesterday I was telling who? I think Caraṇam? Hari-śauri: Caraṇāravindam. Prabhupāda: Caraṇāravindam. That the Englishmen were ruling over us. Now here is English boy, he's giving me massage and fanning me. What is the reason? Unless he feels something obligation, that "He has given us Kṛṣṇa," what business he has got? Not for him, for all of you, to give so valuable free service, unless there is this sense. What do you think? You have no obligation. You are European, American. I am Indian. It is through this via media Kṛṣṇa. This is practical. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is God. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Because they have got sense that "We have got God," therefore they are feeling so much obliged. Kṛṣṇa is God, there is no doubt about it. It is not yet ready? Hari-śauri: They're making a plate now. Prabhupāda: Viśvambhara is there? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we shall follow strictly. Here is God. Take. Because if you are serious after God, here is God, take Kṛṣṇa. This is our philosophy. Hm? What is the answer? If he's serious about God. I think this paper wrote that, that Village? "We thought God is dead." Hari-śauri: Greenwich Village. Prabhupāda: East Village? That paper? Long ago. Harikeśa: Village Voice. The Village Voice. Prabhupāda: Aha, yes. They told first, that "We thought God is dead." And actually they were dancing in the name of God. Acyutānanda and Brahmānanda. You have seen the picture showing? Hari-śauri: In this French Back To Godhead. Harikeśa: Oh, that's Acyutānanda too! Oh! Prabhupāda: They were the first candidates to dance with my kīrtana. Harikeśa: I didn't know that was Acyutānanda. I recognize Hayagrīva but... Hari-śauri: That's not Hayagrīva, it's Brahmānanda. Harikeśa: That's not Hayagrīva? Prabhupāda: No. Hayagrīva... Hari-śauri: It's a picture of Brahmānanda and Acyutānanda dancing, and Prabhupāda's playing on tabla, and Kīrtanānanda sat down on the corner. Harikeśa: Boy, was he skinny in those days! This is Brahmānanda? And this is Kīrtanānanda Swami sitting down? Prabhupāda: Just Brahmānanda, Kīrtanānanda standing together. Hari-śauri: Acyutānanda. Prabhupāda: Oh, Acyutānanda. Harikeśa: Acyutānanda. And Kīrtanānanda's sitting down. Prabhupāda: Kīrtanānanda's sitting there? Hari-śauri: Yes. He sat next to you. He's shaved up. Harikeśa: They're so skinny. Prabhupāda: This was published in New York Times. Harikeśa: New York Times? Prabhupāda: With picture. The other picture was published in Voice, Village Voice, yes. Yes. Big picture. One page. They felt something; otherwise, why they should publish? Appealed to them, that here is God. Harikeśa: This is really a historic picture. Prabhupāda: Underneath a tree I was sitting and speaking. That's all. And when I would come back from the park to my apartment, at least two dozen people will come with me. Hari-śauri: Like a Pied Piper. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: There's a story in the West about a man called the Pied Piper. He went to one place and played the flute and all the children followed him away from the village. You're like the Pied Piper who went to the West, took all the children. Prabhupāda: If you know French language you can read it. Harikeśa: He knows French. Prabhupāda: Ah, you know. What is written there? Hari-śauri: The article is by Hayagrīva, and the heading, it says, "Are you from India?" That was when he met you on the street. Prabhupāda: Yes, he first of all met me on the street and asked me this question. And I brought him, "Yes, I have taken one apartment here. You come here with me." Then I came back to show him the apartment. And from the next day they began to come, Kīrtanānanda and Hayagrīva. Hari-śauri: Second Avenue apartment? Prabhupāda: Yes. And this Umāpati. Then Satsvarūpa. They began to come regularly. Harikeśa: Mukunda, you were already... Prabhupāda: Yes, Mukunda was before that. Hari-śauri: When was this, then, when Acyutānanda and Brahmānanda came. That was after... Prabhupāda: This was in the park, Thompkins Square. Hari-śauri: That was after Hayagrīva and... Prabhupāda: No, simultaneous. Harikeśa: This was the fall of 1966. October maybe. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was going in the park on Sunday and began from three. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, that dundubhi. What is that, in the hand? *Harikeśa: A tom*-tom. *Prabhupāda: Tom*-tom. Yes. Saurabha: He's explaining why you came to America and that in three years you spread the mantra all over the Western world. Harikeśa: Yogeśvara has many pictures of this. I saw all of them once. Prabhupāda: He is good collector. [break] What is that reason? What is that reason? *Indian man: To perceive things and after that we can arrive at long*-term solutions. Prabhupāda: First of all, what is the problem and what is the solution? What is the problem that you require solution? Indian man: Any problem which comes. Prabhupāda: No, what is that? That I want to know. Indian man: Problem is of being happy in the world. Prabhupāda: These are vague terms. You must distinctly say that this is happiness and this is problem. What is your, what is the idea of happiness and what is the problem? That I want to know. Indian man: That I'm not very much clear at this stage of life. Prabhupāda: Happiness, suppose if you can get a nice palatable dish for eating, you'll be happy. But the dog also, if he can get some good eating, he'll be happy. So where is the difference between dog's happiness and your happiness? Indian man: Happiness should be combined with mental peace. Prabhupāda: What is that mental peace? Indian man: To rest in yourself only. Don't run after worldly things. Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is not possible for the animal. Therefore to remain happy within yourself, that is a prerogative of the human being. But we are not trying for that purpose. We are trying to be happy by eating, by sleeping, by sex or by defense. This is our platform of happiness. A dog cannot go to the restaurant, but a human being, if he goes to a restaurant and he can eat palatable dishes, he thinks he's happy. But what is that eating? In your standard you feel happiness, whereas on the street you'll find a pig, he's happy by eating stool. One man's food another man's poison. So eating happiness is there but the standard different. Therefore this eating is common affair, and happiness derived from eating is as good by the dog as by the pig and human being. Indian man: Your idea is clear. *Prabhupāda: So we should know... Happiness is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā: sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyaṁ grāhyam [Bg. 6.21]. What is happiness, that is beyond the senses. The sense happiness is there by the pig and the man. But his standard of sense happiness is different from the man's. Standard may be different, but the happiness derived from the subject matter is the same. There is no difference. Indian man: So happiness lies above the senses. Above our indriyas. Prabhupāda: Ha. Happiness means spiritual happiness. That they do not know. Therefore I began my words that so long one is after material happiness he remains as an animal. Because the animal cannot derive spiritual happiness. They do not know. The man can know. Just like this boy, he's coming from very high family in America but he's now happy in this way, by taking sannyāsa, giving up everything, living very plain. He has got money he had got beautiful wife, he had got beautiful home, everything. But he has given up. Not his example. In our country there were many many big, big kings, rājarṣis. Just like Bharata Mahārāja. He was emperor of the whole world. He gave up everything at the age of 24 years, young wife, young children. There are many examples. So actually, we have lost our Vedic culture, the objective, and therefore we are suffering. Simply by holding meetings and... Of course, these things will go on. Government has no other remedy by tax. Whether people are happy or they are happy, it doesn't matter. They have got the power, tax. Indian man: Right. Prabhupāda: Prasāda. Indian man: Your ideas are superb. Prabhupāda: You remain in Mathurā? Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Here is prasāda. Give. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Room Conversation-*-September 5, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...they're reading now. Here, although we have got books, nobody reads. But there they are reading. But nobody is... (microphone moving) That means they are concentrating (indistinct) with so many books. There are other books also. Why they cannot sell so many books. Unless public is interested... If one has read one part of *Bhāgavatam*, he has got some impression, and actually that is the... [break] One young gentleman came, I do not know where. He simply asked me, "Swamiji, can I talk with you?" "Yes, sit down." His first appreciation was, "Swamiji, where you have got so vast knowledge?" I have already told some of you. So these people, these Americans and Europeans, they are intelligent. They are seeing that here are some ideas which is not to be found throughout the whole world. Therefore they are purchasing. Actually, it is right here. Every verse, every śloka is so sublime, and if it is properly explained people must appreciate. There is no doubt about it. And they are doing that. In our country, due to the loss of our own culture and poverty, we have now taken, "Money is everything." Wherefrom you are coming? Rūpa Vilāsa: Gurukula. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's in charge of Gurukula. He's here for the last six months. Jagadīśa left him here. [break] Prabhupāda: ...he has got? Devotee: What taste does he have? Rūpa Vilāsa: He seems to have a taste more for studying, but not too much for teaching. Prabhupāda: Study is not to teach. What is that study? Rūpa Vilāsa: I mean to say he likes very much studying languages and writing. He's a good scholar. But... Prabhupāda: Has he written anything? Rūpa Vilāsa: In the classroom with the children he is not so expert. Prabhupāda: No, no. Has he written anything? You say that he likes to read and write. So has he written anything? Rūpa Vilāsa: Just as far as I know, some articles for Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: So why does he not write? If he has got a taste for something particular he can do that but nobody knows where he is. Rūpa Vilāsa: What I came to ask was that... Prabhupāda: He's not fixed up. He wanted to take charge of the Deity worship, then he went away. Devotee: He has got a visa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He has left Bombay long ago. Fifteen days ago. Harikeśa: With four thousand rupees. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's in Rādhā*-kuṇḍa, they say. Prabhupāda: Just see. *Harikeśa: Really? He's in Rādhā*-kuṇḍa? Devotee: One boy came from Bombay, he told me, "If I leave I have to go." Prabhupāda: When did he say? Devotee: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Then he's Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Bombay you... *Prabhupāda: He has taken four thousand rupees and gone to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. Devotee: Yogānanda is in Govardhana? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Yogānanda is in Delhi. He's going to come here. Prabhupāda: This is his taste. Sit idly, and become famous as very good scholar. *Rūpa Vilāsa: He did not come to class so often. He did not even come to teach so often. Śrīla Prabhupāda, when Dayānanda prabhu was teaching the children he was a very good teacher and he liked very much to teach. Now I know he is in Tehran upon your order, but still he was very effective as a teacher of Bhagavad*-gītā to the children. *Prabhupāda: Restless, that's all. Mind not fixed up. Restless. Now what he'll do with that four thousand rupees? It is very good program. If I get some thousands of rupees and sit down in Rādhā*-kuṇḍa and eat, that is very good idea. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think we can find him. We know where he is. *Prabhupāda: You can find him, that is not difficult, but what is his mentality. Why he has gone to Rādhā-kuṇḍa if he was teaching here? You cannot rely upon him. When he'll go (indistinct). Rādhā-kuṇḍa, Rādhārāṇī's place, if anyone thinks that it is very easy to remain in Rādhā-kuṇḍa, the topmost place. Rūpa Gosvāmī has spoken*-he must speak about Rādhā-kuṇḍa. But what he has spoken about other things? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Girirāja gave him that money to buy books for our library of our new temple, for the library... *Prabhupāda: So why should he take, why should he take the responsibility for purchasing if he's interested in Rādhā*-kuṇḍa? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's not right. He had his own money also. He just got a lot of money from his wife. Three, four hundred dollars he told me. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Money is not the strength for understanding Rādhārāṇī. If you have got some money, by the strength of money you'll understand Rādhārāṇī. That is another bogus thing. Rādhārāṇī... Indian man: (Hindi conversation for some time) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Girirāja was asking me for the books. *Prabhupāda: Just see. The man who paid him, he was inquiring where are the books? (Hindi) That Mukunda, his class friend, he was doing that. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected him. (Hindi) "He goes everywhere." (Hindi) We have got index in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. You can find out what is the meaning of... (Hindi) ...one who is rejected. (Hindi) (end) *Prabhupāda: ...Sannyāsī should go on preaching, preaching, preaching, preaching. Practically, I was sitting here in Vṛndāvana, in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple. So at the age of seventy years, nobody goes out. At least from Vṛndāvana nobody goes at the age of seventy years. But Kṛṣṇa asked me. I thought that I must go, Guru Mahārāja wanted it, Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Let me try. So if I had not gone then this institution would not have developed. So this is practical. Mahataḥ nirvicaraṇam.(?) Mahātmā, they must move. So when there is absolute necessity they may stay. Otherwise, they must move. Move on, move on, move on, move on, move on. No staying. That is principle. No staying. I am this old age, I cannot move... My... I... So many... Still I am traveling all over the world. I am simply interested that whatever I have done, it may not be vanquished in my absence. Let me go and encourage them. Otherwise, I have no capacity to move now. But still I am moving. Only for this purpose. Girinaṁ grhna-cetasam.(?) So a sannyāsī must move. A sannyāsī must not stay anywhere more than three days. That is the principle. So he was moving, but his moving is creating disturbances here. Therefore I have stopped. And besides that, a temple is nirguṇa. A sannyāsī is forbidden to stay anywhere else, but in a temple he can stay for more than three days provided there is business. Otherwise, there is no necessity. So this is the exclusion(?). Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That solves all the problems. *Prabhupāda: No, solves or not solves, we shall see later on. But this is the principle. This is the principle. Solution, if we do not become very simple servant of Kṛṣṇa, problems will increase. It will never be solved. If you have got any other desire than to serve Kṛṣṇa, then the problems will increase. It will never decrease. Therefore bhakti begins, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. No other purpose than to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is only purpose. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. So our only business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa in His original status as Kṛṣṇa, and in His other status as Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and in both ways, He's insisting to preach. That is a very important business. Neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu nor Kṛṣṇa has recommended that you become a great devotee and sit down in a place and talk big, big words and simply eat and sleep. Kṛṣṇa has never said. That is not Kṛṣṇa's neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu's business. That is not required. Boro boro bado bado phet lanka mata kore het.(?) "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." There are very many big, big bellies in Vṛndāvana, but if they're asked to preach Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission all over the world*-melancholy. Melancholy. Big, big monkey, big, big belly. So you have taken a very great mission that world preaching, that is very, very nice decision. So you have got buses and you have got capacity. You do this. And one in Germany, one in India, come and go, come and go. What do you think? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Then I want to do that, but there are some problems which I'm experiencing. Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: Well, for instance, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa has the habit of deporting my men to different centers, even against their will. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't have that habit. Haṁsadūta: Then the men... I explained the other night... Prabhupāda: Let him explain, don't... Haṁsadūta: When we come to a center, naturally there are certain men who want to go traveling. Not all men want to go traveling, but there are definitely some who want to go traveling. And if they come to me, what should I do? Tell them, "No, I'm sorry"? Prabhupāda: No, no, traveling, if somebody wants to travel, what he is, first of all you must know. A brahmacārī, a sannyāsī, they are meant for preaching. Not gṛhasthas. Haṁsadūta: No, not gṛhasthas. I'm not taking any gṛhasthas. Prabhupāda: So if a brahmacārī, gṛhastha, yes, if he wants to travel, so there is no objection. Haṁsadūta: But what is happening is that for instance, someone will join me, then Gopāla will catch up with him and send the man to Delhi or to Hyderabad. The man will run away and come back again, and again he will be forced to go away. This is what I object to. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, this is wrong. I'll tell you what the facts are. In every temple there are certain key positions for some devotee. In no temple we are trying to keep more than necessary. Sometimes they come and he preaches to them and he gives them money. If he is the temple president... Like in Bombay Haṁsadūta came, he had a fight with Girirāja. Girirāja was ready to write such a strong letter to you. He gave money to few devotees... Prabhupāda: The temple establishment, that has to be maintained. Haṁsadūta: That I understand. Prabhupāda, I understand that. Prabhupāda: So why, why the...? Besides that, if you want to take someone or if anyone is willing to go with you, the president of the local temple, he should be requested. Or the man who wants to go, that "I want to go with him." So if the president thinks that he can be spared, then he can go. But if he thinks that his presence is necessary, why he should go? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is one of the GBC resolutions. No devotee can go without the temple president's permission. Haṁsadūta: I understand... Prabhupāda: I cannot hear two. Let him... When I ask him... Haṁsadūta: In this particular instance, and practically always, I do that. But Girirāja was so unreasonable about the matter that the boy actually ran away. Prabhupāda: No, no, that, that, there are so many people... If you do not satisfy his senses, everyone is free to run away. That you cannot check. You cannot say, accuse somebody or somebody. Because here everyone is giving voluntary service. Nobody is servant. So if he doesn't like something, at any moment he can go away. At any moment. Just like yesterday the Śāstrī came. So he went away. And somebody, they are coming, going. You cannot check them. Because they are not our paid servants. If they are very kind that they have come here, cooperating with us. But still there is some decency, if one is engaged in some work, all of a sudden he should go away, all of a sudden... That is not very good. That is not very good. Decently, that I used to go, and now in preaching work, so there will be no difficulty, this is the arrangement. Something must be done. All of a sudden, if somebody goes, that isn't very good. Tamāla also, if he did so, that is not good. Because I want some men, I cannot kidnap from any place. That is not good. We must see that the management is going on. The management may not suffer. But the president should allow to go if there is extra men. Haṁsadūta: Yes, another point in this connection, Prabhupāda, the men who come with me, they don't stay with me forever. They will stay a few months some of them, and then they go. In this way... Prabhupāda: Then that is the habit... Haṁsadūta: For instance, in this temple, there are so many men which are on our party who are... Prabhupāda: So many men. We don't want so many men. Now we are going to minimize. We don't want so many men. That if, now we have to estimate how many men absolutely required. So many men we shall keep. Others, they must go for the preaching. They must go to the preaching. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can all go on the buses, the extra men. Prabhupāda: No, they should be distributed. They may go to other centers. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hyderabad needs men. *Prabhupāda: Here, unnecessarily increasing men and increasing expenditure, twenty thousand, twenty*-five thousand, thirty thousand. Why? Unnecessary. Only minimum men should be kept who are actually useful. There is no need of keeping extra men. What is that? Harikeśa: When you originally were speaking about Vṛndāvana, you mentioned that Vṛndāvana would be a place for those people who have become a little disturbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or burned out, we call it, from so much activity, that he comes here and gets rejuvenated. Is that still... *Prabhupāda: That is a fact, but provided he is devotee. If he's not a devotee then he will go away, here and there, here and there. That is the habit. And a devotee is satisfied anywhere. A devotee is not that "I'll go to Vṛndāvana, then I'll be satisfied." Nārāyaṇa*-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati [SB 6.17.28]. I did not go to your country taking Vṛndāvana with me. I had to stay in places where in the refrigerator there is meat. And I was cooking. When opened it I saw, "Here is meat. All right, what can be done? Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. Akṣayānanda: But actually you did take Vṛndāvana with you. Prabhupāda: So if I would have stuck to Vṛndāvana, "No, no, I cannot go anywhere, leaving Vṛndāvana." No, we can go to hell if there is Kṛṣṇa's service. Harikeśa: So is there some time that maybe somebody could stay here when he comes in that frame of consciousness? Prabhupāda: No, no, it is... Not that. It should be now restricted. Not that anyone comes and whimsically goes away. This should be restricted. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These devotees just create a disturbance, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They don't want to be engaged and everybody copies them and the whole atmosphere gets... Prabhupāda: No, no. Akṣayānanda: A lot of devotees think... They come here... Therefore work is not necessary. Simply chanting and being in Vṛndāvana is nice. That's wrong. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Chanting, but there is expenditure. Who will collect this twenty*-five thousand? It is increasing. I can maintain them provided they are actually serious about making progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not that some lazy fellow will come, and because he has come to Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa-candra has become very much obliged to him. Kṛṣṇa-candra had no other friend. He has come from somebody. That mentality should be curtailed. Harikeśa: What if he comes with money to pay for himself. Prabhupāda: Is there a guest house? Stay. There is no harm. There is guest house, he can pay and stay. But here we shall keep only minimum number of men without whom we cannot make, manage it. That's all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, how it is possible? Who will bring twenty*-five thousand per month? I'm surprised. Twenty-five... (Hindi) Akṣayānanda: It's much more. Sometimes thirty. Prabhupāda: So this must be stopped immediately. We cannot pay more than five thousand. You stop. We cannot pay. (Hindi) My Guru Mahārāja used to say, (Bengali) "Joint mess." This is not possible. That we have to maintain a big bundle of burden. What is this? Akṣayānanda: But still, we have to welcome anyone who comes. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-five thousand, thirty-thousand per month? What is this? Where is that temple in Vṛndāvana who is spending twenty-five thousand, thirty thousand? Can you say any temple? Indian man: Not more than five thousand. Prabhupāda: That's it. So we cannot pay more than five thousand. Akṣayānanda: For eating? Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Then clothing is more? Clothing is more? Maintenance? Prabhupāda: No, everything. Hundred rupees per head. You do not require to collect. I shall pay five thousand. Harikeśa: There should be a budget here. Prabhupāda: Budget is there. Hundred rupees per head. Fifty men if you keep, it is five thousand. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can keep less. We don't want fifty. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. It will be less. But I'm prepared to pay you five thousand rupees for fifty men. Not more than that. That I can pay. You do not require to collect. You sit down. But work hard here. Not that eating, sleeping. No. That cannot be. That cannot be done. They must be engaged twenty*-four hours. That is wanted. It is not a lazy free hotel. Anyone lives, he must be engaged twenty-four hours. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. If he has no work, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa here. That should be done. *Akṣayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We have this twenty*-four kīrtana. I've requested everyone who comes to do at least one hour per day. *Prabhupāda: There is no question. This is the condition. If you agree, then stay here. Otherwise, you go to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. Akṣayānanda: Also visiting devotees should do that too. Anyone who comes here should do that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone. Prabhupāda: You must make a rule. Akṣayānanda: At least one hour in the temple. Prabhupāda: Why one hour? Four hours. Four hours. Four times. Morning, evening, night, morning again. Akṣayānanda: Already, the rule is made... Prabhupāda: No, no, already rules we are... Just like to continue kīrtana there must be four batches. Akṣayānanda: Yes, four men I have... Prabhupāda: Four batches. That means six hours, four. Three hours. Three hours. Not four hours. So one batch four hours. From morning six to nine. Another batch from nine to twelve. Another batch twelve to three. Another batch three to six. Again the morning batch six to... *Akṣayānanda: Eight different batches, that makes a total of thirty*-two. *Prabhupāda: That's all. Not, why thirty*-two? Twice one batch. One batch attending once in the morning, once in the evening. Indian man: Sixteen. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: So then if there is fifty men, we cannot spare sixteen men? Akṣayānanda: Very nice. Prabhupāda: Everything is nice. Only to be managed. Only to be managed. So I am prepared, I'll pay you. Even if you have no money I'll pay you five thousand rupees. Keep fifty men. Akṣayānanda: I don't think it's necessary for you to pay. Prabhupāda: So if necessary, I'm prepared. That's all right. Akṣayānanda: No, it's not necessary. Prabhupāda: Then thank you. That is another thing. But fifty men you can keep. Fifty men you can keep. And there is collection in the box. There is collection by prasāda, so many other things. Indian man: And the altars. *Prabhupāda: That should be engaged fully in Deity worship. Not extravagant. That I shall see. I shall remain here. How things are going on. I shall manage myself. I shall see how things are going on. So anyway, fifty men, five thousand. No more twenty*-five thousand. Forget. No more twenty-five. Harikeśa: That's three rupees a day. Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: If it's three rupees, thirty paisa a day for eating, soap, and toothpaste... *Prabhupāda: No soap. Take this Rādhā*-kuṇḍa's... Why soap? You are so devotee of Rādhā-kuṇḍa, why you require soap? This is nonsense. You take earth from the Rādhā-kuṇḍa or Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana-dhūli. Why you require soap? (Hindi conversation to the effect that if one has the dust of Vṛndāvana or Rādhā-kuṇḍa, there is no necessity for soap) Nim datun? I was doing nim datun(?) until the teeth fell down. You will know that I was collecting nim. But now it is impossible. That also I have manufactured my own toothpaste. I purchase only the brush and I made my toothpaste at home. I never used any toothpaste. Even in my young days. I never used. You have seen it practically. Not only that now I have become sannyāsī. When I was gṛhastha I never used. When I was gṛhastha I was using that nim datun(?) regularly. And I can give you the paste. So if you cannot use nim datun, you can use this paste. Very simple. (Hindi conversation for some time) *Akṣayānanda: One problem is that the devotees who are not serious, we say they cannot stay here. Yet, because they are still attracted to Vṛndāvana, many times they go and find a place outside the temple in Vṛndāvana and they make a bad example. This problem we cannot solve. Or they go to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa and live. We say, "You cannot stay here because you won't help in some way." Therefore they... Prabhupāda: No, cannot stay... You can allow three days free. You can receive guest for three days. Not permanently. And they can... That is very reasonable. If they have come, spending so much to Vṛndāvana, they cannot pay? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They usually have money. Everyone who comes from America, Europe, has some money. Prabhupāda: Then? What is the difficulty? What is the difficulty if they have got money? Indian man: See the shop here. See all the shop whether they have got money or not. You have opened a canteen here and you can note from there who has got money. Prabhupāda: No, money they have got. There is no doubt. They are not coming from poor country, either poor. No, we are welcoming provided he is reasonable. Simply to exploit, that is not good. That is not good. What do you think? In our Indian system, if somebody goes to a sādhu's āśrama, especially gṛhastha, immediately he pays fifty rupees, hundred rupees. He'll not stay more than three days, four days. But he knows "The sādhu, wherefrom he'll bring money? Take." They are paying without staying. Just like yesterday this man came, and you have seen so many people come. In your country also it is done. That is up to the man's conscience. That I have come here, so I require to stay. Pay something. But not that... That should be properly expended. So anything can be done very nicely provided there is good management. I do not see any difficulty. I am present here. If there is any difficulty, ask me. I shall advise. (Hindi) Per head hundred rupees is sufficient. Not more than that. Even, how many devotees are here now? Akṣayānanda: We have sixty. About sixty. There are, many women are there. Normally there has been about... Prabhupāda: Up to fifty I take charge. I shall pay hundred rupees per head. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't need more than fifty, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because Hyderabad needs devotees. Prabhupāda: If there are more they can go to other centers. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now we have the farm in Hyderabad. Mahāṁsa's asking for men for the farm, for the temple. They can give... Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got the biggest farm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Six hundred acre farm. Prabhupāda: As we have organized New Vrindaban farm, and Philadelphia farm, so the farm was also to be organized by you. That was the contemplation. So six hundred acres of land. Very nice land. Very nice land. Six hundreds and it is not with (indistinct) like Vṛndāvana, but very fertile. Harikeśa: It can produce enough food to feed the whole society. Indian man: Irrigation system? Harikeśa: Do you want me to take care of? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That would be best. Prabhupāda: Why not? Harikeśa: The thing is, the money that I had put aside for that farm I gave to Mahāṁsa, so he should give it back. Prabhupāda: You should be very much encouraged. *Haṁsadūta: No, the money that I put aside to start that farm, to buy some irrigation equipment and so forth-initial investment*-I gave it to Mahāṁsa on your order one lakh of rupees. I gave him one lakh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is for construction, and he's going to take it back. Prabhupāda: No, that is for construction. That is not for the farm. Harikeśa: No, no, that money, I intended to use for the farm. But it took so long to get that farm. So when we gave it to... Prabhupāda: No, that can be... That I guaranteed. That I guaranteed one lakh, that if he does not pay, I shall do it. That guarantee still. Haṁsadūta: Should I develop that scheme then? Prabhupāda: Yes, let us have the farm first of all. I do not know what is the position now. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's coming soon, Mahāṁsa said. So he can develop the farm. *Prabhupāda: So your main business should be mahad*-vicalanam. Calanaṁ vicalanam.(?) Haṁsadūta: It's just that in this one particular problem it would be better, that's all. He has already sent them away. He has already sent a number of men away. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? And they are all the temple devotees. What I'm saying is don't rob men from these temples have to be supported. They're taking away men from the temples and the temples... *Haṁsadūta: I don't want to make a fuss, but right now there are six or seven first*-class men who are working in your temple who are on this party. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Take them all, but still the temple will go on. Prabhupāda: He can take them. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Take them out. Haṁsadūta: That's what I'm afraid, that he's going to... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Your men you take. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I am only requesting you to return the temple devotees which you have stolen. That's all. I don't want one man from this party. We will manage it. Just return the temple devotees. *Haṁsadūta: (talking back and forth to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa*-indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yesterday I told him that temple painting is going on... Who is painting? I never saw. (Hindi conversation) Akṣayānanda: So we should have one kitchen only. One kitchen? As we had discussed last night. Now we have a Deity kitchen and a devotee kitchen. We also have a guest house kitchen. Prabhupāda: Why three? Akṣayānanda: So the devotee kitchen and Deity kitchen could be made into one. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's decided. Akṣayānanda: Yes. So I'll give you a list of the preparations we'll offer for your approval. It means we'll be offering less to the Deity. *Prabhupāda: What is difficulty? (Hindi conversation) How many Deities are there? Guru*-Gaurāṅga four, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma two, six, and... Akṣayānanda: Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā, and the gopīs. Prabhupāda: Ten. So... *Akṣayānanda: Small Deity of Gaura*-Nitāi. (Hindi conversation) Prabhupāda: What is your idea? [break] *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The CID is going to our life members and harassing them. They are scared of becoming our members now. Even in Chandigargh, Caitya*-guru told me your books were on display in one life member's stores, he has two stores. And CID went to him and said, "Why are you displaying these books? What's your connection? Why're you helping Hare Kṛṣṇa?" Prabhupāda: So selling books is illegal? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but they are just suspecting, they're so suspicious. Prabhupāda: What is that suspicious? We have got books. We are selling. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They, you know, because (indistinct). (Hindi) Akṣayānanda: They just harass us. They don't do any action. They just keep bothering us. Indian: Two CID inspectors came to my house. And they said they have got so many things in their basements. So I told, you have come without informing me, and I was not informed them. So please come to me one day and decide what is (indistinct). You come with me. I took and I showed... Prabhupāda: Kya bola? (What did you say?) Indian man: Sir, I showed everything. (Hindi) You want to help me to go to materialism? They are not CID's, they're not even anything. They are simply devotees. They have come from foreign country and they are... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, the living is simple, then they they will see, yes, (indistinct). Prabhupāda: And where is the car you have purchased? Akṣayānanda: It's in Indore now. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Akṣayānanda: Madhya Pradesh. I put one brahmacārī in charge of it. Prabhupāda: They are using. Akṣayānanda: Yes, very well. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're preaching. Akṣayānanda: Very good boys looking after. Indian man: (Hindi) Akṣayānanda: It's a very good car, Prabhupāda. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Visa department, ten dollars. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Canada you had problem. I remember when you came to Montreal in '68. Prabhupāda: Oh, you did not know. Canada I had very little problem. U.S., it was always problem. Rather Canada helped me. Canada, I immediately got immigration in Canada. Then I got some standing. That never mind, I have got now immigration in Canada. It will be easier from Canada to go to U.S.A. Then again I tried for U.S.A. And [in Canada] it was obtained within three months and spending only within hundred dollars. And there, in America, they were spending each time $150. The lawyer was taking. He was phoning, "Will you please send $150 for this expense." And how many times he has taken I do not know. They were paying. Rāyarāma was at that time chief man. He immediately... This was going on. Then when I came to Canada... First of all, I made my position secure, that "Let me have Canadian immigration." So Canadian immigration I got very soon. I think within two months. Then I applied for U.S.A. immigration. So U.S. immigration I got within three months. And I paid I think within hundred dollars. So... You know. When I came to Montreal? Harikeśa: Very easy... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You went for the interview with the U.S. Consulate in Montreal before you got your green card for America. Prabhupāda: No, no. In Montreal went... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you came from Vancouver... From Seattle. Harikeśa: You came from Vancouver. With one gentleman. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: With Shasti*-mai(?). Prabhupāda: Yes. So there was hard struggle. It is not that so easy for... In 1965 to '66, 66-67, regular hard struggle. Haṁsadūta: Yes, I know that's a crisis. *Prabhupāda: You know that. Hard struggle. So Kṛṣṇa gave us some facility. Now we have got some framework. Do it very cautiously. Unnecessarily exhausting what we... sato vṛtteḥ sādhu*-saṅge. That is Rūpa Gosvāmī's line. We should be very honest and live with sādhu, those who are devotees. Tāṅdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās. First of all our mission should be how to serve the Gosvāmīs. Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] In the morning we shall go to take my milk from the goat. I'll go early so that I may take the first. And come back, then take my bath early in the morning. I did not take hot water. Cold water. Even in severe winter. Then? *Harikeśa: And one boy called Rādhā*-Dāmodara dāsa from New... (end) *Garden Conversation-*-September 6, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Why should we bother about this and that? *Caraṇāravindam: Prabhupāda, you wrote in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta that the Caitanya mahā-mantra, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda, there is no offense to that. And so therefore in the Kali-yuga it is actually more beneficial... *Prabhupāda: Offense is that what is spoken by the ācāryas, if you do not follow, that is offense. Guror avajñā. That is offense. To chant Gaura*-Nitāi is no offense. But if our previous gurus have chanted śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda śrī-advaita-why should we go beyond that? That is guror avajñā. Even there is no aparādha, because guru, Kavirāja Gosvāmī, has sung like that and my guru has sung, we should follow that. We should not make any deviation. That is guror avajñā śruti-śāstra-nindanam. Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. So it comes to be one of the items of the daśa-vidha-aparādha. Guror avajñā. *Caraṇāravindam: Should we consider that it's more beneficial for people to hear bhaja śrī*-kṛṣṇa-caitanya... *Prabhupāda: Why? There is already... Why should you go here and there? There is already śrī*-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda. Why you are so anxious to go out of it? *Caraṇāravindam: No, I'm saying is it more beneficial for people to hear that mantra than the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Is it more beneficial for people to hear the Pañca*-tattva mantra than the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra? *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. You are going to Hare Kṛṣṇa through Nitāi-Gaura. Nitāiyer karuṇā habe braje rādhā*-kṛṣṇa pābe. The principle is don't try to manufacture. Because you are not experienced. So what nonsense you will manufacture, that will be offensive. Better go on, the simple thing. *Akṣayānanda: I know one devotee that chants Pañca*-tattva mantra... *Prabhupāda: Let them chant whatever. We shall chant like this, Pañca*-tattva-śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda. I've explained that. Five features of Lord Caitanya. Akṣayānanda: He chants that mantra on his beads. Prabhupāda: Who? *Akṣayānanda: That boy Richard in Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. *Prabhupāda: Rascal. That is his bad association. Therefore I say don't follow these so*-called Rādhā-kuṇḍa bābājīs. Nara-kuṇḍa bābājī. And they smoke biḍi. I have seen. Richard is still there? Akṣayānanda: Yes. He's in very bad health. Prabhupāda: But he has got money. Spending money there? Akṣayānanda: I haven't been there for a long time, but I just heard about. Prabhupāda: No, he has got money. How he is spending? Harikeśa: He has hundreds of thousands of dollars. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Harikeśa: Probably in New York. Prabhupāda: So he does not bring that? Harikeśa: Yes, he has money all the time. Akṣayānanda: Dhanañjaya prabhu, he went to see him and he said he was dying. He's supposed to pass off. And he said that he had written a will and on the will he had left most of his money to ISKCON. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Caraṇāravindam: He loves you very much. Actually, he's very attracted to you Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Why does he not come to us? He likes Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. *Caraṇāravindam: He loves Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. Prabhupāda: Determination. No, if he's in difficulty he may come. We can take care of him. Vipramukhya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I go tomorrow to Delhi and I'll leave to go to Istanbul. *Prabhupāda: Very good. Go with the blessings of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi*-grāma. Very good. Kṛṣṇa will save you. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and depend on Kṛṣṇa. Then everything's all right. Don't be afraid that you are going to foreign country. There is no foreign country. Caraṇāravindam: Kṛṣṇa's everywhere. *Prabhupāda: Īśāvāsyam idam*-everything's Kṛṣṇa's. Mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā. Surrender means that. "Kṛṣṇa, I have surrendered to You. Now if You like You can protect me. If you like You can kill me. Whatever you like, do." That's all. Mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā nitya-dāsa prati tuwā adhikārā. "I am your eternal servant. You have got full right. Either you kill me or protect me, that is your business. But I surrender." Bas. This is surrender. Mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā. This is surrender. If you put me into inconvenience, then I'm not going to surrender. That is conditional. (laughs) Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says whatever you like you can do. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching. Āśliṣya vā pāda-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām marma-hatāṁ karotu vā adarśanān, yathā tathā vā vidadhātu [Cc. Antya 20.47]. Whatever you like you do. Yathā tathā vā. Yathā tathā, whatever you like. It is up to you. I don't object. Yathā tathā vā vidadhātu lampaṭo. Akṣayānanda: If one is not a very strong devotee, should one have that same attitude of going... *Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Dṛḍha*-vrata. That is perfection. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Hari-śauri: No, he's saying if you're not very fixed up then should you still go out and preach. If you're not very fixed up... Prabhupāda: No, nobody is fixed. Nobody is perfect. But by rendering service he becomes perfect. The more you render service you become perfect. Not that in one day you become perfect. Hari-śauri: Because I remember you also said that preaching is not for neophytes. You also said... *Prabhupāda: Neophyte means that kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī. One worships the Deity very nicely but he does not like to do good to others. Neither he knows who is Vaiṣṇava. He's neophyte. He is, in the arcanā, he's fixed up, he's doing very nicely. Arcāyām eva haraye. Yaḥ śraddhā..., pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate na tad-bhakteṣu. One does not understand who is bhakta. Na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu. And how to do good to others. But he's doing the Deity worship very nicely. Sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ. He's prākṛta. But he can advance when his, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, he understands "Here is a Vaiṣṇava. Here is an innocent man. He should be given some enlightenment." That is preacher. When he'll feel for others. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa. "I am thinking of these rascals who are averse to you." Tato vimukha-cetasa. And that is Vaiṣṇava. Advanced devotee. For me I have no anxiety. Naivodvije para duratyaya-vai... There may be so many dangers. I don't care for them. Naiva udvije. "I am not disturbed by all these things." Udvije. Para duratyaya. Even it is very insurmountable, dangerous position, I don't care. How? Tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ [SB 7.9.43]." Because when I think of You, chant of Your glories, I don't care for that." Then you appear to be morose? "Yes." Why? Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa. "I am thinking of these rascals who are averse to You. How to do... They are engaged in false activities, māyā-sukhāya, for temporary happiness of the senses. So I am thinking like them. Therefore I am morose. For me I have no anxiety." And actually, what Prahlāda Mahārāja... He was thrown to the fire, he was thrown from the hill and underneath the... He didn't care. "Whatever you'll do I'll chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So how he'll be unhappy for himself? He has already passed all these examinations. His father! Not other. His own father. He's helpless. He's under father's care, and the father is giving so much trouble. All right, if he likes, go on. Everyone expects affection from the father. He's five years old boy. Where he will go? No, no, no, no. "I'll take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and you can go on with your business. I don't care for your punishment." Akṣayānanda: Such stage of Bhakti is very rare, Prabhupāda. To be on such a high platform is very rare. To be fearless. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakti itself is rare. Bhakti is not cheap. Don't think it is cheap commodity. There is a verse, I now forget. Kṛṣṇa can give you liberation, but He hesitates to give bhakti. *Harikeśa: Muktiṁ dadāti karhicit sma na bhakti*-yogam. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Mukti, He is prepared, "All right, take mukti." But when there is bhakti, He has to consider twice. Bhakti means he becomes in the grip of bhakta. Vedeṣu durlabham adurlabham ātma*-bhaktau [Bs. 5.33]. Caraṇāravindam: Are we doing bhakti, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: That is viddhi*-bhakti. And this is rāga-bhakti, spontaneous. Through viddhi-bhakti you have to come to the stage of rāga-bhakti. Without viddhi-bhakti, you'll not... Because you are conditioned. Those who are liberated, they immediately get rāga-bhakti. Not by imitation. That is another thing. Nitya-siddha. (Japa:) Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma... So I have got all encouragement. Go and preach. Don't be afraid. Simply present, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Whatever you have learned from Kṛṣṇa, from your guru, just vomit it, that's all. There is no need of becoming very expert. Simply whatever you learned. That's all. Harikeśa: Lots of kīrtana and prasādam? Prabhupāda: That's it. That is our main... Anyone will like. Chant mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa, and give them prasādam, and everyone will take. Harikeśa: I think puris and halavā, there isn't a person in the world who doesn't like it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Anything you'll nicely prepare, tastefully, people will like. (Japa:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have learned cooking? I'm asking... Huh? What you have learned? What preparation you can make? Devotee : Many different kinds of preparations. Prabhupāda: Tell me something. Harikeśa: Tell Prabhupāda some. Caraṇāravindam: Ah... Most of the kitchen preparations (indistinct) one gets in India. Iddlies (indistinct) ...things like that. Prabhupāda: Oh, he knows so many things. You have learned something? You? Devotee: Very little. I can cook halavā and puris. Simple things. I can cook sweet rice. Sweet rice I can cook. Prabhupāda: Sweet rice. That is very sweet for you. (laughs) The Europeans and Americans, they like sweet rice. Is it not? Harikeśa: Oh yes. Devotee: I think they like halavā the best, Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Ācchā? If halavā is made nicely, actually it is best. So prepare all these things. Offer to Kṛṣṇa and devotees, and at last you take. Don't take first. Give all, as much as you like, then you take. Susukhaṁ kartum avyayam [Bg. 9.2]. It is such a nice movement. It is simply pleasing. To execute, it is simply pleasing. And avyayam. Whatever you do is permanent. Whatever little service you have given. It will never be lost. Avyayam. Therefore Nārada Muni says, bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi. Even if he's not fully matured and falls down, kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kim. Where is loss? Whatever he has done, that is permanent. Because that will grow. If the seed is permanently sown, then it will naturally grow. It may take some time, but it will grow. So he's not loser. If he's little careful, then it will grow. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare āropaṇa, śravaṇa*-kīrtana-jale karaye... Then the creeper goes, grows, and at last takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa. These are described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Vipramukhya: When we prepare a feast we should give and give and give, and when no one wants any more then... Prabhupāda: Up until he comes to this point. Not only this point, but up to this point. Eat as much as you like. We are not miser. You eat. As much you want I shall supply. But don't waste. Eat. Don't waste. Hari-śauri: This morning you were saying that fasting is very good. (laughter) Harikeśa: I was just thinking about that. *Prabhupāda: No. Not prasādam. I never said. No, those who want to eat... Fasting... One who has not developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, for him fasting. And one who takes pleasure, "Oh, it is Kṛṣṇa's pleasure, or Kṛṣṇa's food. I'll take." This is the idea. So we are not devotees, therefore we should first fast. And those who are devotees, they'll take as much as they like. I was telling fasting because I am not a devotee. (laughs) For me fasting is good. If I eat more*-atyāhāraḥ. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca, ṣaḍbhir bhaktir praṇaśyati [NoI 2]. *Hari-śauri: If you can appreciate kṛṣṇa*-prasādam without filling up to the neck... Prabhupāda: Yes. It is for the devotee. A devotee can eat. As Caitanya Mahāprabhu was eating. Govinda, his servant complained, "Sir, so many things are lying here and everyone asks, 'Whether Caitanya Mahāprabhu has taken my preparation.' 'Oh yes, He has taken.' So I have to speak so many lies. You don't take. What can I do?" He said, "All right, bring it. Bring it." So He began to eat for one hundred men's foodstuff stocked. He finished. Then He asked, "Any more?" So, now only the bags are there. Everything finished. (laughs) So He ate. Everything, one after another, one after another, one after another. "All right. Bring, bring, bring." So He can eat. We cannot. This water is going there? It is going only one side and not other side? (indistinct) Akṣayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it a sign of advancement in devotional service... Prabhupāda: Branch? Akṣayānanda: Advancement. If somebody wants to preach. Is that the sign of advancement? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Akṣayānanda: That's the first sign. Prabhupāda: When one is very anxious to preach, that is advancement. Akṣayānanda: And if one is not very anxious to preach, he is not very advanced. *Prabhupāda: Then he should stick to Deity worship very nicely. Following the rules and regulations, cleansing. Śrī*-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau **. This nitya, you take very seriously. Akṣayānanda: And then when he becomes advanced.... Prabhupāda: Automatically he will be anxious to preach. Automatically. Akṣayānanda: Ultimately. Prabhupāda: Not ultimately. Automatically. Just like in a small time, our, that Kṛṣṇa dāsa? He knows English, he knows French, he knows... What does it mean? He has heard it. Now he'll want to speak. That is the natural sequence. If anyone has listened from the authority about Kṛṣṇa, he wants to speak again. That is preaching. Not that "I have listened about Kṛṣṇa, that's all right." No. When he wants to speak to others, that is advancement. That is wanted. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. That is the test that he has advanced. Nāma, rūpa, guṇa, līlā (indistinct). Devotee: Does he have to speak immediately, or he can speak after some time. Prabhupāda: No, no, not immediately. Immediately how you can speak. Unless he knows, what he'll speak? It is better not to speak than speaking all nonsense. He must learn first of all what is the philosophy, what is the science. Then he can speak. [break] Vipramukhya: . These Turks are yavanas? Demons and yavanas? *Prabhupāda: Materially there are so many divisions, but spiritual they are all servant of Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is yavana, nobody is brāhmaṇa. Everyone is servant of Kṛṣṇa. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. We are going there not to make the yavanas a brāhmaṇa. That is not our mission. Our business is... We know that he is servant of Kṛṣṇa. Forgetting Kṛṣṇa, he's thinking himself as Turkish, as Muhammadan, as Jewish, as Christian. This is his disease. So let me cure his disease. Why he should be called yavana? That is artificial. He's Kṛṣṇa dāsa. Jivera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. Just like when a physician treats a patient, does he think that here is a Christian, here is a Muhammadan, here is a Hindu? He takes as patient. Never mind what he is. And he gives treatment. He never thinks that here is a Christian patient, here is a Muhammadan patient. He is patient. Give me this, bring him medicine. That is physician's business. Why should we consider, "Here is a Christian patient. He should be treated differently than the Muhammadan." Does he think like that? Does he think? Does any physician honestly think that "Here is a Christian patient, special care should be taken for him?" No. If he is physician, he should give the equal treatment to everyone. Akṣayānanda: If he doesn't have any money he may... (end) *Room Conversation-*-September 6, 1976, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's bhakti*-nitya-siddha is already there. Otherwise it was not possible to become so successful in the foreign countries. They are not fools, accepting something bogus. Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa consciousness has succeeded amongst all kinds of religions. It's succeeded amongst all kinds of religions, amongst all kinds of nations. Prabhupāda: Everything. Harikeśa: All kinds of economic systems. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]."There is nothing greater than Me." How anything can exceed Kṛṣṇa? You present Kṛṣṇa right, then Kṛṣṇa will exceed anything. Any department of knowledge, any department of activity. Anything. Supreme, Parataram. Para*-taram. Tara is used-superlative. If our men become serious to distribute... Of course it is not possible that the whole world will be Kṛṣṇa conscious, but at least they will know that there is such a thing. I may know at least there is diamond. I may not be able to purchase. That everyone can know. There is a very valuable jewel. Even though he has not seen it, still he'll appreciate that there is a very valuable jewel known as diamond. That much will also help. When he has got money he can purchase it. [break] Because gentleman will come you have to break this wall. What is this nonsense? Akṣayānanda: Yes, actually I didn't want it broken. Prabhupāda: You didn't know but it is going on. Akṣayānanda: Now they have to finish. Prabhupāda: Any rascal comes, he gives some order. This is the difficulty. Akṣayānanda: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: Any rascal comes, he's a third*-class man, he gives some idea. Akṣayānanda: I'm going to get this work finished today definitely. *Prabhupāda: He has no position, he is third*-class man. He has given some idea. "Here, you break it." That is the nature. And how long this work will continue? Throughout the whole life? Akṣayānanda: No. I'm going to finish it today. Prabhupāda: You say no, but it is going on. You simply say no, yes, no, very good. That's all. Akṣayānanda: When I go away and I come back and the wall is broken what can I do? Prabhupāda: Don't go. Akṣayānanda: That's right. Prabhupāda: You don't manufacture idea. Don't go to (indistinct) others to manufacture ideas. Akṣayānanda: Right, right. Prabhupāda: Simply manufacturing idea. Akṣayānanda: I understand. Prabhupāda: In Bombay also they have manufactured idea. One hole, one lift. There is no need, and you have manufactured some idea. Very expert in manufacturing nonsense ideas. Hari-śauri: The thing is how to distinguish between what's a good idea... Prabhupāda: You have to take ideas from your guru. Akṣayānanda: From intelligence. *Prabhupāda: Therefore gurum evābhigacchet. Why do you manufacture yourself? Consult the authority. Then do it. That is intelligence. Why do you think that you are very intelligent? That is materialism. The more you remain that "I am a fool," that is good. And as soon as you become over*-intelligent, then, that's finished. So Europeans, Americans, they are over-intelligent. They have intelligence, over-intelligence. Unnecessarily. They manufacture a machine for shaving. Gnowgnowgnow gnowgnow (makes machine sound). (Laughter) And they have wasted so much time. So much time. But people like it. Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda, if we don't use soap, the question has come up, how to wash the clothes. How to wash the cloth. If you do not use any soap, the question has come up, how to wash cloth. By beating only? Sufficient? Prabhupāda: For washing cloth you require soap. But does not... You require everything, but because you are spending without any sense... So I calculated yesterday the whole thing, Deity worship, Deity pūjā, will require five hundred rupees per month. Akṣayānanda: I had requested for the flowers, Viśvambhara said twelve rupees you had decided last night. Prabhupāda: Twelve rupees, thirteen rupees... Akṣayānanda: Twelve, thirteen. Actually today, I wanted for today but the flower man was not able to... We could not catch him in time. But from tomorrow it will start, definitely. Prabhupāda: The thing is that one who is cheating you, he will cheat in twelve rupees, also he will cheat in fifty rupees. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: He knows how to cheat you. Akṣayānanda: Yes, they're expert. Prabhupāda: Where do they get flowers? Akṣayānanda: There are two flower men. They come here from Bankibehari. Now Viśvambhara has made two, because they make a competition between each other and therefore they keep down. But... Prabhupāda: Nobody is honest. Akṣayānanda: But still old flowers are coming. Still, old flowers are coming. We're getting cheap, but old ones are coming. Brown flowers, old ones are coming. It's just by experience, Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: Where they get flower? Akṣayānanda: Wherefrom? The actual flower men? I don't know. Prabhupāda: In the market the flowers are not sold? Akṣayānanda: I don't know. Viśvambhara said that this was the best. Viśvambhara is very expert. He's supremely expert at catching these cheaters. But even he gets cheated sometimes. Even things go by and he doesn't notice. He's very, very expert. If I ever get to be as expert as him, then maybe something good will happen. But even he is also being cheated sometimes. Prabhupāda: Cheating is one of the qualification of the conditioned soul. Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda, Viśvambhara... Prabhupāda: Vipralipsa, vipralipsa. Bhrama, pramada, vipralipsa, karuṇātmikā.(?) So cheating is a qualification of the conditioned soul. Everyone is expert in cheating more or less. That is qualification. People take pride, "Oh, I have cheated. I am so expert that I have cheated." When the lawyers make some agreement between the two lawyers, simply think "How I can cheat you. How can I cheat you." That's all. The more one lawyer is expert in cheating, he is big lawyer. Hari-śauri: Yes, because their business is to avoid the law. Akṣayānanda: They are called lawyer but their business is to break the law. Prabhupāda: Yes. The best cheater is the best lawyer. Akṣayānanda: So that means if we become pure then we can avoid being cheated because we ourselves will not cheat anymore. Prabhupāda: No, this world is full of cheaters. We have to live with them. Sate sattvaṁ samācaret. You also have to become better cheater. That is wanted. Otherwise, you cannot exist. Akṣayānanda: But we have to cheat for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Do everything for Kṛṣṇa, that is all right, but this world, if you become simple and the whole world is full of cheaters, then you suffer. Akṣayānanda: You lose everything. *Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to know and protect yourself from the cheaters. So sometimes we have to become a bigger cheater. This is the world. Vañcaka*-vañcī. Whole world is going on, my Guru Mahārāja used to say that one is cheater, another is cheated. Hari-śauri: There's a saying in English... What is it? Set a thief to catch a thief. The purport is that you have to think like a thief, then you can catch him, you can know what he's doing. Prabhupāda: Set a fish? Hari-śauri: Set a thief to catch a thief. Prabhupāda: Thief, oh yes. You can reply him... [break] Those who are actually serious to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are welcome. *Akṣayānanda: Pāpī*-tāpī jata chilo. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If he's serious to become free from this material world and go back to home, back to..., you welcome him. We don't make any discrimination. Ābāla*-vṛddha-vanitā. Bāla means children. Vṛddha means old man, and vanitā means woman. They are most helpless. Ābāla-vṛddha-vanitā. Vanitā. Beginning from the child up to the old man, and... But coming here, if they plan for sense gratification, that is very dangerous. Come here, stay with us. We shall somehow or other provide him with prasāda and place, but be advanced. And the simple method is recommended, Akṣayānanda: Your Bhāgavata. There are no others actually. Prabhupāda: Vyāsadeva, the words of Vyāsadeva. I am simply trying to explain, that's all. Akṣayānanda: No one else is trying. No one else has done it. Prabhupāda: It is due to the blessing of my Guru Mahārāja. He directly told me that "If you get some money, publish some books." I took it seriously, so he's helping me. All our Godbrothers, they didn't take it. Did not know it, neither... Even they... They know it. Because from the very beginning, Guru Mahārāja was serious about publication. He started press and published these books. This Bhāgavata was published by him. And the journal, six journals, he was very much fond of publishing, publication. Very, very. He told me directly that if it was possible to get the marbles from this Gauḍīya Maṭha and sell it and convert it into books, I would have done it. Because I know there will be blazing fire in this place. [break] And by Kṛṣṇa's grace, by selling books we are getting. This is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise... This Bon Mahārāja is so proud of his institution. He could not do this. He could have done it. For the last forty years. *Akṣayānanda: He does not speak kṛṣṇa*-kathā, Prabhupāda. So five thousand you have estimated for the Deities? For a month you have estimated last night five thousand? Prabhupāda: Five hundred. Akṣayānanda: Five hundred. For all... Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For a month? Akṣayānanda: With Viśvambhara you have discussed? Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Then I'll talk to him now. Prabhupāda: Just like we were going to in the evening... Don't divert attention. In the evening we have estimated four plates. Each plate eight puris. Akṣayānanda: Six plates. *Prabhupāda: Six plates. Six plates, eight puris means forty*-eight puris. Forty-eight puris, Viśvambhara calculated the āṭā and ghee. Akṣayānanda: Yes, you already made that estimate. Prabhupāda: Two rupees. Āṭā and ghee, two rupees. Then other preparation, another two rupees. Akṣayānanda: He'll tell me everything Prabhupāda. No need to... Prabhupāda: No, no, why don't you hear? You are hearing now. Four rupees to prepare all the plates. Four rupees, say five rupees. So five rupees, monthly 150 rupees. So we are offering four times. So 150 rupees four times. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Six hundred rupees. Prabhupāda: Six hundred rupees. So take another four hundred rupees, make one thousand. It should not go more than five hundred to one thousand. You spend. Harikeśa: But milk, when you cook down milk to make a sweet... Prabhupāda: I have taken from six hundred to one thousand. All the maintenance. Akṣayānanda: I will take every item with Viśvambhara, every single item. Prabhupāda: You don't believe me? Akṣayānanda: I can't understand. My intelligence is not great enough to understand it. I believe you, but I have to do it. That's all. Prabhupāda: It cannot go more than one thousand. Akṣayānanda: I can't quite grasp it, Prabhupāda. But you say it can't go above five hundred, so that'll be it. Prabhupāda: No, no. Five hundred, that is rough calculation. But we add another five hundred, if there is any mistake or any error and omission. Therefore I have added another five hundred. Akṣayānanda: That means a thousand. Prabhupāda: Thousand. That is sufficient. Akṣayānanda: Maximum. Prabhupāda: Maximum. And you were speaking 9,000. Akṣayānanda: This is for food. Food only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It is for Deity messing. Akṣayānanda: Deity food only. Yes. Prabhupāda: So I am speaking of the Deity, not for all. For all others hundred rupees per head, five thousand rupees. Here puri, kacuris, and other things, all the best things. But general is not for puri, kacuri, and... They are general food. We are not going to supply puri, kacuri, halavā to everyone. Akṣayānanda: No, never. Never have. Prabhupāda: Only for the Deity. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Others are just dāl, sabji, rice, cāpāṭi. Prabhupāda: Everything. Everything calculated. Akṣayānanda: I believe you, Prabhupāda. But to make it practical I want to see every item. The cost, the weight, and everything. Prabhupāda: It is already calculated. Akṣayānanda: Then I can do it. Then we can do it. Prabhupāda: It is already calculated. I calculated not with a fool. With an experienced man. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have one other question regarding... We are going to observe very strict policies. Unless somebody is working he cannot stay in the temple. If some other tourist devotee comes from some other center, he can only stay for three days. But beyond that he should either pay or he should go and preach or do something else. What should we do with, like there's some sannyāsīs here, like Yaśodānandana Swami and his party. I hear they're going to stay for the whole month. They're already here since two weeks. They're occupying two rooms, everything. They're going to stay here till the end of the month. Akṣayānanda: Get him to go and preach for Vṛndāvana. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The only reason I'm talking this is because now it's really tight. We can't take... They have air conditioned room... Prabhupāda: Yes, they should go and preach and bring some collection. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're just relaxed, resting for a month. Akṣayānanda: A month is too long, Prabhupāda said. Prabhupāda said three days a sannyāsī should stay and then he should go and travel. The wheels should be turning. I'll talk to him. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because this just adds up. A ten people party staying here for a month... Prabhupāda: Yes, they've always come, so there must be some control. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Few men are here from Haṁsadūta's party who eat with us. All this just adds up then our budget cannot be maintained. Akṣayānanda: I'll preach to him. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Air conditioned room. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. They're our men. Harikeśa: Yes. It's required. If anyone's ever done a big preaching program, he... Prabhupāda: But one month... Akṣayānanda: A month is a long time. Maybe a week. But a month... Prabhupāda: Yes. Week is sufficient. One month is too much. That is laziness. Akṣayānanda: Residential. Laziness. Prabhupāda: So he was preaching in the South India, so why he came here? There was no resting place? Harikeśa: He came here... Actually they're going north soon. They're going to be in Chandigarh when we're in Chandigarh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is six weeks from now. Harikeśa: That's all right. They're also going north and preaching and he's having a very hard time getting his financial position down. He has no men. Two, three, four men. He's having... Prabhupāda: How he'll return my fifteen thousand? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That Mahāṁsa has taken. Prabhupāda: I do not know Mahāṁsa's taken. He has to return it. Harikeśa: He never got it. And he wanted to join with Haṁsadūta, do some type of (indistinct). He's not in a very easy position right now. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He could become a part of Vṛndāvana and take a team out of Vṛndāvana. Akṣayānanda: I always wanted that Vṛndāvana should have one bus. That is to say if there is not too much endeavor to get one bus. There's so many buses floating are through the air. Why could Vṛndāvana not have one bus? In that way they can always be just like Kīrtanānanda Swami. There is always saṅkīrtana going and coming, going and coming. Prabhupāda: Ānanda Swami? Akṣayānanda: Kīrtanānanda in New Vrindaban. All his people, they must go out and do kīrtana and distribute books. They must. Everybody does it. In that way, I'm told this anyway. In that way the devotees are enlivened and they don't become restless in the temple. Then the same ones... It's our bus, and they will come back to our temple. So we will not lose so many good devotees because they will not be attracted to go away on others. So if we had one bus... Yaśodānandana Mahārāja I will discuss with him. I already have, I'll just try to discuss it more. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurudāsa Swami is coming to Vṛndāvana with a bus. He said he's going to give it to Vṛndāvana. Akṣayānanda: And there's no need for me to go out. There's so many nice sannyāsīs. So many big preachers and so many buses. So if we just try it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Īśvara Candra prabhu has come from Mathurā. [break] Prabhupāda: When you will come to preach something. You take it from me. Īśvara Candra: Last one and a half year I'm trying for something in Mathurā but I'm... Prabhupāda: You are trying in your own way. But Kṛṣṇa does not like that program. You can manufacture your something, idea, but Kṛṣṇa will allow or not. I tell you. This is practical. You are a qualified man, foreign educated man, and you have come back for the last one and a half years, still you are in nothing. It is surprising. That means Kṛṣṇa does not want you to do that something. You take it from me. These boys have come because they found, outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness, life is nothing. That's a fact. Therefore they are sticking to this. They knew it very well. That outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness the whole world was vacant, "Nothing for us." That is a fact. Therefore they have got something here. They are not foolish rascals, they're sticking for nothing. There is something. It's a fact. So for nothing, "Oh, we have suffered." And come to something. If you want. That's Prāṇava, he is trying for something. He has come also to Vṛndāvana more than one year or two. Huh? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Two, three years. Harikeśa: More than that. Three and a half years. *Prabhupāda: And he's trying to do something. The same "something." He was at home, the same woman and same man. And again also here the same woman and man, and trying to do something. But he has no customer. He has only customer how to cheat these Europeans and Americans. Surmā merchant. As if surmā is not available in the market. And he advertises "This is my special formula, and this is this, this is this. You take it and give me five hundred rupees and go away." He cannot sell outside. Otherwise, why he's sticking to Vṛndāvana? Thinking the fools and rascals the Americans are. I shall introduce. (Hindi) That this material world has become nothing. You come to something. (Hindi) If anyone wants to go to Bhagavān then he has to make this material world voluntarily nothing. Niṣkiñcanasya. Niṣkiñcana means nothing. You understand, you translate. You know the meaning of niṣkiñcana. Kiñ*-cana means something and niḥ means not. Then nothing. So one who has made this material world as nothing. How it is made? Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. Because with this something, as soon as one will stick to this something, he'll suffer. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt [SB 7.5.5]. Because he has accepted this rascal situation, asat. Asat means either temporary or bad. Asat. (Hindi) Temporary or useless. So this material world is... Temporary we can know it is. But it is useless, that we do not know. Therefore we struggle. "Let me go, let me fight, fight, fight, fight." That is māyā. (Hindi) You know that? A man is sitting on the ass. And his hand just on the front of the gādhā, ass, he's putting some grass. And the gādhā is thinking, "I will eat this grass," he's going forward. But the grass is also going forward. This is very instructive. The grass is, say one feet above his head. And the man is sitting on his back. But because this gādhā does not know that "Actually this man is sitting on my... As soon as I go forward, the grass also goes forward." But because he's ass, he does not know. He thinks that "If I go a little forward I'll get the grass." But he has no knowledge that the arrangement is so made that as you go forward the grass also goes forward. Another example is that meerage, myrage? There is no water. Harikeśa: Mirage. *Prabhupāda: Mirage. There is no water. It appears there is water, and the animal goes forward and it goes forward, it goes forward. So this material world is like that. Ask anybody, any so*-called successful. Unless he's an ass, nobody will say that this is very comfortable. So best thing is to become niṣkiñcana. Niṣkiñcanasya bhāgavata-bhajana... This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. Bhāgavata-bhajana means niṣkiñcana. You make nothing this material world. That is real Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so long I'll make this material world something, then I'll suffer. Best thing is make it... Just like Draupadī. Draupadī, when she was grabbed in the assembly and Duryodhana and Karṇa wanted to make her naked. So generally woman, if you try to make her naked she'll try to save herself. So she was trying to save herself and when she thought, "There is no way. My husbands are here. They are not helping, and..." So cloth is being supplied by Kṛṣṇa, but how long I shall? No, before Kṛṣṇa helping, she was trying to help herself. But when she found that it is not possible, then she did not try to save the cloth. She said, "Kṛṣṇa, save me!" Two arms. You have seen the picture. And then Kṛṣṇa supplied cloth. So it is, "Go on, yes, Duḥśāsana, you go on. You try to make her naked. I'll supply." So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, that one should, if one is serious about bhagavad-bhajana, he should take it, whole material world, as nothing. Sometimes I think, I made nothing this material world, and again retired in Vṛndāvana. Again Kṛṣṇa, you have given so many things. What is the purpose? At that time, I remember Rūpa Gosvāmī's instruction. "This is not mine. This is Kṛṣṇa's." Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgya. We are exerting so much energy to construct a temple, but as soon as we become implicated, "Now I have got this big building. Let me live very comfortably." Then it is very dangerous. So long we work for Kṛṣṇa, it is Kṛṣṇa's, I am still nothing. And as soon as I take it, "Oh, now I have got very good, comfortable place. Make me again something." Take that as dangerous. Otherwise, there is no danger. Therefore we have to be engaged always in Kṛṣṇa's service. Not that "Because we have got this nice building and income also, let us now sit down and eat." Then you'll stop. You shall have to be engaged always. Because our brain is materialistic, as soon as there is little chance of utilizing for sense gratification, mind: "Yes, yes. Do it." Still, we have to do it. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgaḥ phalgu vairāgyam kathyate. Rūpa Gosvāmī. Hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Things which are connected to Kṛṣṇa, you should never think it that it is material. It is spiritual. (Hindi) Jagāi Mādhāi... Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him that you make this nothing, this sinful activity, then I accept you. They promised, "Yes." (Hindi) Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyaḥ [Bg. 18.66]." (Hindi) What is your ambition? What is the ambition? Huh? Then again nothing? There must be something. Why you are sticking to that company. There must be some ambition. Īśvara Candra: I want to take care of my family what... *Prabhupāda: So how you can take care with nothing? Kṛṣṇa makes you nothing, then how you can take care of your family? Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nārtasya ca... These things I have explained. That we have got so many means against struggle for existence, but that is not final. Tāvat tanu*-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām. If there is no sanction from Kṛṣṇa, you cannot do it. It is impossible. If Kṛṣṇa does not like you to be implicated in that way, that is false, then how can you do it? You are thinking that I shall take care of my family. But if Kṛṣṇa wants that you cannot take care of your family then how you'll do it? Can you go against the will of Kṛṣṇa? You can understand at least this, if not very much advanced. You cannot go against the will of Kṛṣṇa. So you have tried for the last one and a half years, you could not improve your material situation. That means you are going against the will of Kṛṣṇa. Take it from me. Kata bāccā? Four (Hindi) Separate. No more together. (Hindi) Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ [SB 7.9.45]. Everything is discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Kṛpaṇa, brāhmaṇa, kṛpaṇa, tṛpyanti neha. He knows that one bāccā has given me so much trouble. Illicit or legal, (Hindi) it is troublesome business. Otherwise why these Americans and Europeans, they're killing their own child. They don't want to take the botheration. (Hindi) So it is botheration, there is no doubt about it. The Bhāgavata says tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ. The kṛpaṇa (Hindi) What is the meaning of kṛpaṇa? Do you know? Miser. Miser, what is the meaning of miser? Yes. We have got this something, human form of body, to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Instead of doing that, in spite of possessing this something, I am utilizing it for sense gratification. If you want sense gratification that's all right. Get one child, two child. Why again and again? Therefore śāstra says tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ. Because he's kṛpaṇa, he's never satisfied. He's suffering-again, another child, again, another child. All right, you have got two child, one child, that's all right. Be satisfied. Why again and again? The kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇa, he does not know how to utilize this asset of human life. He's wasting the asset in a different way. Kṛpaṇa. One has to become brāhmaṇa. The opposite word of kṛpaṇa is brāhmaṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. That is wanted. So we are giving brāhmaṇa's position. Instead of taking the brāhmaṇa position, if he wants to take again kṛpaṇa position, then what is the use of being initiated? All these great sages, saintly person, who were they? They were all brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa. Śukadeva Gosvāmī is always addressed, brāhmaṇa. Is it not? This is brāhmaṇa's business. It is not the kṛpaṇa's business. Kṛpaṇa's business means he does not know how to utilize the asset. So (Hindi) it is my duty to speak the truth. So now you can do whatever you like... Give him prasāda. [Break] ...these words, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. They have been described, it is just like... Of course, it is very difficult, this itching. We have got practical experience. When there is some itching, we cannot stop it. We cannot stop it. Even if I do not want it, still... So it is like itching. Nothing more. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. The tapasya means how to control this itching sensation. This is tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa [SB 6.1.13]. Tapasya means, tapasya begins, now brahmacārī. That is tapasya. Tapasya means brahmacārī. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena, tyāgena, satya-śaucābhyāṁ yamena niyamena [SB 6.1.13]. This is tapasya. It is very strong power, this... Therefore Bhāgavata said that this power, sex power, is there in the hogs. They have no discrimination between mother, sister, daughter. And simply busy. The example is given. This capacity is there in the hog. Are you hog? How example is given. Do you like to remain like a hog? One should be saintly. Yes. Then where is the difference, I'm a human being? I am treating like hog. Therefore this very example. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujām [SB 5.5.1]. This is for the hogs. This hog civilization is going on as human civilization. That is the difficulty. Whole world is hogs and dogs. Big, big United Nations. And what are the assembly? Hogs and dogs. The politicians, as soon as he gets some time for relax, immediately he becomes hogs. Go to the hotel, prostitute, and drink and dance. Is it not? All politicians. You become a big hog. That's all. Without becoming politician, a small hog. Because they have got politi..., big hog. So how you can expect prosperity from these big hogs? After all he's hog. What benefit you can derive from this hogs, assembly of hogs, United Nations? United hogs. You cannot expect. He's hog. Now they're making propaganda for sterilization, and if we advise make a brahmacārī-āśrama from the beginning, they will not take. "What is this nonsense, brahmacārī?" Akṣayānanda: Is it because they cannot? Do they reject it because they cannot do it? *Prabhupāda: They can. They'll not accept the process. They can. Everyone. Otherwise why these brahmacārīs? Just to be trained. That's all. By training we can find so many brahmacārīs. Just like by training you have given up so many things. You were accustomed to this illicit sex and meat-eating and... But you have given up. But why? By training. So if we request the government, "Let us open this brahmacārī..." They'll not help. But they'll make the other propaganda. They'll make contraceptive method, and naturally one Hindu widow is trained up not to marry again. Once she got a husband, that's all right. Now you convert your, you divert your attention to Kṛṣṇa. They'll make propaganda. "Why stop her sense gratification? Let her marry again, widow marriage." Why widow marriage? If there is voluntarily giving up begetting any more child, to avoid husband, why the widow marriage bill is introduced? Everything was natural, brahmacārī. The sterilization is already there. That will not be accepted. Widow, she's remaining refrained from. Just like we have now asked our girls not to dress attractively, widow. They should dress not attractively. Because after all, what is this sex enjoyment? It is not very good thing. By outward attraction they attract. Nice sari, nice,*-one becomes attracted. Therefore this is psychology, that if the woman does not dress very nicely, she will not be attractive. Unnecessarily attraction she will avoid. But a woman is naturally, her psychology is dress very nicely so that man may be attracted. Because they want shelter. This is the whole psychology. They, although they declare independence, they cannot live independently. That is not possible. Therefore they are by nature accustomed to dress attractively so that one may accept her and give her shelter. This is psychology. Otherwise, why the woman are naturally inclined to dress herself nice. Man does not. This is the psychology. A boy, sixteen years old boy, he does not... He is roughly dressed, he does not... But a sixteen year old girl will never remain roughly. She'll always try to decorate herself very nicely and utilize her youthful beauty for attracting. Why attracting? Because she wants shelter. Therefore it is the duty of the father and mother that she is young girl, she wants shelter, and out of passion, lusty desires, her selection may be wrong. So before she selects out of her own way, let me, it is my duty, I am guardian. Give her some good shelter. This is Hindu process. Akṣayānanda: Perfectly natural. Prabhupāda: Very natural. Akṣayānanda: But they say restricting. But they will say restricting, unnatural. *Prabhupāda: They may say, but this is natural psychology. Father, mother, they know, the well*-wisher of the children. Now everything is spoiled. But we don't care for this. We say take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything will be adjusted. Akṣayānanda: By sterilization, Prabhupāda... When they perform some operation that will also spoil their intelligence. Prabhupāda: Everything is spoiled. Akṣayānanda: Because if the, as I have read, if the semina can go to the brain then there can be some intelligence, if even a little could go. Is it by sterilization no more can go to the brain I think. So they have become balada. [oxen] They've become like the balada. Prabhupāda: Nowadays boys are dull. Why dull? Akṣayānanda: So dull in India. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Because they discharge semina like anything. Must be dull. Akṣayānanda: And then by... Prabhupāda: Uddhareta. There is a word uddhareta. Reta means semina. One who has learned how to divert the movement of the semina to the brain. Uddhareta. Greatest yogis. By yogic power they can do that. Instead of discharging, going down. Akṣayānanda: So if they become sterilized then there's no more possible for the semina to go up. Never again. Prabhupāda: No. Semina will not be produced. Akṣayānanda: It cannot, therefore it cannot go, nothing can go to the brain. Therefore their brain is finished for life. It is the same... Prabhupāda: Anything you do artificially... Akṣayānanda: It is just like making an operation on the brain. Sterilization is therefore the same... *Prabhupāda: The Kali*-yuga is... The material world is for suffering. Kali-yuga is more suffering. But it is not fault of the... Just like this bābājī has been sterilized. Because the government knows, even the so-called sādhus and bābājīs, they are using their sex. Akṣayānanda: Bābājī has been... Prabhupāda: They are now being, forcibly being taken. Akṣayānanda: Sterilized. Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know. I heard about it. Because they are having sex. Prabhupāda: It is open secret. Because so many women go to hospitals, American hospitals. Akṣayānanda: Oh, I know. Prabhupāda: The hospital men, they do not take it serious, "It is natural, a man and woman." But it is strictly forbidden according to spiritual life. Akṣayānanda: By law the doctor has to perform so many operations in his day of practice, medical practice. One doctor came here, he was our main member. He said, "I have to go back to practice now. I have so many cases, sterilizations to perform in this day. Otherwise I won't get paid. I will not be able to live now. Because I must perform so many..." Large figure. I've forgotten how many. Maybe one dozen in one day. One dozen, fifteen in one day. He must perform by law. Prabhupāda: Just see. Akṣayānanda: Terrible. I often think it's like the balada. The balada they have, with the balada gadi(?) and they cut. And the balada has no brain. He does anything you want. Devotee: What's a balada? Akṣayānanda: The oxen. And similarly the people. [break] There must be a war very soon. It seems that there must be war very soon. War may happen very soon. Prabhupāda: There will be reaction. Akṣayānanda: Such a transgression of the laws, it cannot... How much further can it go, Prabhupāda? There must be a war very soon. Any day. Prabhupāda: Yes. I think they cannot ask you for sterilization. You are foreigners. Akṣayānanda: Ask us for sterilization. Hari-śauri: They can't sterilize us. Akṣayānanda: Well, nobody's asked us yet. Prabhupāda: No, legally can they? Akṣayānanda: By law if you have three children. Hari-śauri: If you become Indian citizen then. Akṣayānanda: If you have three children in your family then by law you must have it. Prabhupāda: So you have no children. "So let me produce first of all three children." Akṣayānanda: Yes, right. That's what I thought. Prabhupāda: This argument. "First of all finish my..." Akṣayānanda: I had two when I was married. Prabhupāda: That is now... Akṣayānanda: But they are not here. They're not in the country. Prabhupāda: So, we are sannyāsīs. We have no children. So why you are coming to us. Akṣayānanda: They've never come fortunately. Hari-śauri: They can only do that to their own citizens. They can only do that to Indian citizens. Prabhupāda: Foreigners... Akṣayānanda: So if I become Indian national, if I learn Hindi and become Indian national then they will approach me? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Akṣayānanda: That can never happen. *Harikeśa: I just heard that seventy thousand women and thirty*-six thousand men. *Akṣayānanda: Nas*-bandhi, they call it. Nas-bandhi.(?) Hari-śauri: That was just in one state. Harikeśa: In Delhi or U.P. or something. Prabhupāda: Nas means veins. Akṣayānanda: Means? Prabhupāda: Veins, these, veins. Akṣayānanda: Veins! I didn't know that. Bandhi means stop it. Stop the vein so the semina will not go. Terrible. Harikeśa: You're sure about that? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Hari-śauri: They told you that's what they're doing. Stops you producing... They cut the tube that produces semina. Akṣayānanda: I don't know where they do it. Some part of the body. Hari-śauri: It's somewhere near the testes. They cut the tube. It takes ten minutes. And it stops you producing any more semina. Akṣayānanda: It's so bad. They give people... [break] ...and eating so much nonsense. So the preaching in India has to be done very, very tactfully. Prabhupāda: No, just like I was speaking from *Bhāgavatam*. Akṣayānanda: Just what you have spoken. But our actions must be very tactful also. *Prabhupāda: If you speak only on the subject matter as it is mentioned in the books, it is already tactful. Yasyāṁ śrūyamāṇāyāṁ kṛṣṇe parama*-pūruṣe, bhaktir utpadyate puṁsaḥ śoka-moha-bhayāpahā. Now they are in a position of śoka-moha-bhaya. So you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the best tact. Now it is the time. Now they are put into śoka-moha-bhaya. It is already there going on, śoka-moha-bhaya. But it is now special time for śoka-moha-bhaya. So you have to take it. It may be out of fear, bhaya, they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Akṣayānanda: Still, they have to just take, that's all. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Catur*-vidhā bhajante māṁ janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna ārto [Bg. 7.16], ārto. Ārtaḥ means who is afraid of. So this is the position of ārta, śoka-moha-bhaya. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But that he can take provided he is sukṛtina, if there is background. But still, by hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa he becomes sukṛtina. Akṣayānanda: I think most of the devotees became by fear. I think most of the devotees have become devotees because of fear. Prabhupāda: Fear must be. If he's a gentleman he must be afraid of this material world. That is very good qualification. If one is afraid of this material existence, it is very good symptom. Akṣayānanda: Just about every devotee, before coming to you, has thought about suicide. Prabhupāda: Suicide? Oh. Akṣayānanda: So many, I know I have spoken with them. And myself included. Prabhupāda: Yes, there was no hope. What is the use. Akṣayānanda: Yes. Just about every devotee, they have thought of suicide. Prabhupāda: Yes, they commit suicide. I have seen. Fall from the... Hari-śauri: Skyscraper. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tower. From the bridge. Hari-śauri: They have to put big wire screens up to stop people from jumping off. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen. Harikeśa: Berkeley. Prabhupāda: Berkeley, yes. Hari-śauri: Everywhere. Sydney has bridges like that. These big towers like Eiffel Tower in Paris, they have big fences along the top so that no one can... Prabhupāda: This practice is there in Vedic system. Not Vedic system, (indistinct), fall down. There is technical name. Fall down from the mountain. This is easier than other type of suicide. Because you simply once jump, but as soon as you fall, you forget everything. Suicide itself is very bad. This fall down, serotan (?) it is called. *Akṣayānanda: So one question I wanted to ask you in this connection, is that this Vinobha, fasting until death, until cow slaughter is stopped. So if he dies then he is guilty of murder. Is it correct. And if he's a brāhmaṇa, he is guilty of brahma*-hatya. So by this fasting he is committing a greater sin than the actual killing of the cows. Prabhupāda: You are right. Akṣayānanda: And what is the gain? *Prabhupāda: And what he'll get it? Does he think that by his dying of starvation this cow*-killing will be stopped? That is his foolishness. Akṣayānanda: He will die and it will go on. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his foolishness. Akṣayānanda: And he does not know where he will go next. Prabhupāda: Just see, he is (Hindi), very big man, and he's such a rascal. He has no sense what he is doing. Akṣayānanda: Plainly you have described in the *Gītā*. You have described plainly in the *Gītā*. No one else has done that. Cinmayananda's, this, that rascal, no one has. No one has explained that. They don't know. Prabhupāda: No, anyone who is not in our disciplic succession, he's not a human being. Cinmayananda, Vivekananda, this-ānanda, they simply... Ānanda, there is no ānanda. All nirānanda. What Cinmayananda? He is supposed to be very big sannyāsī, what he has done? Akṣayānanda: What has he done? He advertised in the paper for young boys. Prabhupāda: There is one gentleman, Sadajivatra in Bombay. You know him? Akṣayānanda: Sadaji Mahatma? Prabhupāda: Sadajivatra. Akṣayānanda: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) proprietor. Akṣayānanda: I know of him. *Prabhupāda: He is very intelligent. He has said to a friend, that Bhaktivedanta Swami (Hindi) Kāla means, that he has made all other so*-called sannyāsīs, yogis, black-faced. Akṣayānanda: (laughs) Jaya. He is intelligent. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Swami sata mukala.(?) Akṣayānanda: It's true. It's true. Prabhupāda: Now here is a big sannyāsī, Akhandanandan, or Bon Maharaja. They are supposed to be big, big sannyāsī. Akṣayānanda: I do not know what Akhandanandan does. Prabhupāda: Anyway, (indistinct) And this Anandamaya. Actually I am not proud, but what they have done in comparison to me? Akṣayānanda: Yes, they've done nothing. Prabhupāda: He has said sata mukala. Akṣayānanda: Mukala. Prabhupāda: Kāla. Kāla means lajjita. Black face. Everyone should be ashamed. They may be envious on account of their failure, but if you come to the actual valuation, sata mukala. That's a fact. Hari-śauri: Actually, that Bon Maharaja is very black anyway. Prabhupāda: He's so black, there is no more black required. (laughter) A black snake. (Bengali) In Bengal it is said if a brāhmaṇa is black he is dangerous. Akṣayānanda: If a brāhmaṇa is black? *Prabhupāda: That means he's not pure brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa cannot be black. Just like a European, if he becomes black, that means he has mixture. European and American, if he's black, that means mixture. So brāhmaṇa family, how it has... Still, family, it must be very fair. Śukla. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya family must be very beautiful. If he's pure. Kāla brāhmaṇa prakāśa śūdra (Bengali) beki poṣya*-putro pasaraila.(?) It is a slang language. Kāla brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa should not be black and śūdra should not be white. And a Musselman should not be dwarf. Because formerly real Musselmen were coming from Kabul, Afghanistan. That is called (indistinct). If a Muslim is dwarf that means he is not real. (Bengali) Prostitute's son, and poṣya-putra, adopted son. They are all of the same class. How this selection? Black brāhmaṇa, white śūdra, dwarf Musselman, and prostitute's son, and adopted son. Adopted son, he gets money without any earning and spends like... I have seen so many adopted sons. Hari-śauri: Adopted son, oh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like our, Haṁsadūta's wife, what is name? She has adopted a son. Hari-śauri: Oh, Himāvatī. Prabhupāda: Himāvatī. It is not like that. But generally adopted son means spoiled son. Akṣayānanda: Spoiled. Spoiled brat. Prabhupāda: Because he gets money. One who has got money but no children, he takes some adopted son. So the adopted son thinks that "I have got so much money," and he has never worked. He is spoiled. I have seen many adopted son, our... Got lakhs and lakhs of rupees, and in one night he's spoiled everything. Simply after woman and wine. I have seen it. There was one gentleman, Narendranath Singh. Very big, palatial building and very rich man. And I have seen him when he was finished. He was friend of big, big person, Raja Maharlel (?). And one day I saw in Calcutta, there was raining and he was sitting in a rickshaw. And no friend. He had known practically all big men of Calcutta friend. Nobody is coming. "Well Narendra, you are sitting. Come on in my car." Nobody. I was (indistinct). And he was drenching, there was heavy rain. And sitting a... And he was keeping Rolls Royce car. Akṣayānanda: Keeping? Prabhupāda: Rolls Royce. When he was rich man. Akṣayānanda: Sometimes while traveling I've met some very old rich men lying on their deathbed dying. I approached them to help us. They will not give a single penny. It is all going to the son, and the son is atheist. In the house there is everywhere Kṛṣṇa's picture. Very difficult. They don't know that Kṛṣṇa is giving them a chance. They die, within days some of them can die. They are lying on the bed, passing stool and urine. So rich. But they do not care to help this movement. So many people like that. We have to become very expert. (end) *Garden Conversation-*-September 7, 1976, Våndävana Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That Blitz article, I wrote a reply and sent it to Krishna Modi, the member of Parliament and he's going to discuss it with the other members of Parliament. What I did... Prabhupāda: But this article is in our favor. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, the previous one. Prabhupāda: So but Mr. Modi said that we don't bother about this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no, he'll reply. So I gave him the point. He wanted me to give him the point and the right answers and then he will reply. Prabhupāda: What are the points? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I read the whole letter you? It's a four page letter. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "Dear Shri Modiji. Hare Kṛṣṇa. In Blitz issue of August 21, 1976, an article under the heading of "Blitz Tears the Mask of Ungodly Face of Kṛṣṇa Cult" appeared. This article appeared on page 3 of the issue and was written by A. Ragwan of Blitz Delhi Bureau. We beg to state that this was a mischievous article in which the newspaper accused us incorrectly. It is our firm opinion that the purpose of this article was simply to defame ISKCON because it is engaged in spreading God consciousness based on the Vedic scriptures. For your information, ISKCON is a registered society with the government of India. This society..." Prabhupāda: For your information we beg to submit. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. For your information... Before that I have said. "For your information ISKCON is a registered society with the government of India." Prabhupāda: No, no, "for your infor..." It is not completed. "For your information..." What is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, this is a sentence. Prabhupāda: Okay. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "This society was formed strictly for the purpose of spreading God consciousness. We briefly submit below the misleading information as reported by Blitz and humbly inform you of the fact." What I've done is I've shown each point that Blitz has incorrectly said and then responded to it. Should I read? Okay. "Point one. Blitz Ungodly Face of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. ISKCON: The International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is a worldwide community of devotees practicing the Vedic teachings, the eternal science of rendering devotional service to Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Society was founded by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, a pure devotee of God, who is coming down in paramparā started by Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa five thousand years ago. In other words, the roots of this movement trace back to at least five thousand years. It is not a modern concoction. In India our Society is registered under the Society Registration Act #21 of 1860. As we are a registered nonprofit organization, we are required to maintain complete account of all donations received, both within India and from abroad. Thus keep a complete account of all our expenses. Our accounts are audited every year and submitted to the income tax authorities and the charity commissioner. Very briefly, the main object of the Society, as registered with the government is..." I've given them the three main points from your memorandum of the association. "To advance, transmit, and spread the ethical and philosophical principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as revealed in the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And the doctrines and the observances which serve to promote and manifest the said ethical and philosophical principles in the furtherance of the subject. To build or to assist in building temples, schools, colleges, hospitals, and other buildings in connection with or for the advancement of the objects of the Society and to maintain, alter, and improve the same, including existing buildings, and to furnish and equip the same. To print, publish, sell, or cause to be printed, published or sold, or to distribute books, booklets, leaflets, daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, or yearly newspapers, magazines, or other periodicals for the purpose of giving information for the work of the Society. We refrain from four categories of sinful activities, such as meat-eating, intoxication, gambling, and illicit sex life. Furthermore, our entire life is dedicated to reading, chanting, and preaching about Kṛṣṇa. We rise at 4 a.m. all over the world. So how can Blitz say that we are ungodly when we are following Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa's teachings?" This is my reply to point one. It's okay? Prabhupāda: Yes, this is nice. Very good. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "Point two. Blitz And now it's ISKCON*-MRA-Anand Marg..." Just for your information Prabhupāda, MRA and Anand Marg were banned organizations for murders... Prabhupāda: MRA also? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it is banned now. So Blitz said, "And now it's ISKCON*-MRA-Anand Marg." So ISKCON is replying. ISKCON: "Blitz is trying to link us with banned organizations like MRA and Anand Marg. We challenge Blitz to show any of our activity that is dangerous to the Indian society. Our only business is to follow Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is all we are asking others to do also. We're not engaged in any political activity either. So how can Blitz compare us to banned organizations like MRA and Anand Marg?" So this is my reply to point two. "Point three. Blitz: ISKCON was founded in New York in July, 1966. ISKCON: Yes, ISKCON was registered in New York by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Bhaktivedanta Swami went to America at the advanced age of 70 to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness because he was ordered so by his spiritual master, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda, the founder-ācārya of Gauḍīya Maṭha institutions in India, to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the Western countries. Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda strongly desired that the whole world accept Lord Kṛṣṇa's teachings and therefore he ordered his most educated and sincere disciple, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda in 1936 to spread these teachings to the Western world. Bhaktivedanta Swami started translating Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Caitanya-caritāmṛta and Bhagavad-gītā in 1936. When the late prime minister, Shri Lal Bahadur Sastri, saw Bhaktivedanta Swami's Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he said, "His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is doing valuable work, and his books are a significant contribution to the salvation of mankind.' Presently Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, a division of ISKCON has published over sixty books of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. These include Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, 25 volumes, and Caitanya-caritāmṛta, 17 volumes. These books have been acclaimed by both Indian and Western scholars. The books are being used by about three thousand universities all over the world, including Oxford, Cambridge, and Harvard universities. In India, in the last four months, close to four hundred institutes have placed standing orders on Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda's books." Prabhupāda: Calcutta University purchased. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I said four hundred universities. I didn't... "Even Russian scholars have praised Bhaktivedanta Swami's books and placed orders. For your information, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust is the leading seller of books of Vedic culture outside India." Prabhupāda: Topmost publisher of religious and philosophical... In the world. That is admitted. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I said outside India because Gītā Press... It becomes disputable in India. So this was my reply to point three. "Point four. Blitz: Most work in India is done by foreign devotees. ISKCON: The founder-ācārya of ISKCON is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, who is an Indian. His chief secretary for India is also an Indian. In total, ISKCON has presently about 270 devotees in India, of which at least 150 or about 60% are Indian. Our programs in India have been praised by all leaders. The chief minister of Andhra Pradesh, while inaugurating our Hyderabad center on August 18, 1976, said, "History appears to be repeating itself. One found a revival of temple construction, temple worship, and Gītā*-prayana in advanced countries like U.S.A." *Prabhupāda: Not Gītā*-prayana. Gītā-parāyaṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Parāyaṇa. Okay. I just copied the spelling from the paper, Parāyaṇa. Okay, I'll change it. Prabhupāda: No no, that is understood. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. "He complimented ISKCON, for disseminating the Vedic culture. West Bengal government officials have praised our agricultural efforts. The principle officer of agriculture of Nadia District in West Bengal said that our Māyāpura farm is receiving attention of nearby farmers, and this farm is acting as a demonstration for them. So the statement that foreign devotees are running ISKCON in India is misleading. Point five, Blitz: Big business in Spiritual Sky. Boss of West Bengal is Gregory M. Scharf. ISKCON: In Māyāpura our devotees make handloom saris, dhotīs, and gāmchās. All over the world our devotees wear the traditional Indian dress of dhotīs, kurtās, and saris. It is our spiritual master's desire that all our devotees overseas only wear clothes made by our devotees in Māyāpura. Spiritual Sky sales and services was formed just to send our Māyāpura handloom and other necessities only to our centers overseas. In return our overseas centers send Māyāpura donations. Even Gandhiji wanted every Indian to be self*-sufficient. This is what we are trying to do. We produce our own food and clothing. Instead of criticizing, Blitz should publicize these activities so that others can follow. Gregory M. Scharf's spiritual name is Gargamuni Swami, and he is an initiated disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Blitz has tried to portray him as a businessman who's wearing saffron clothes to deceive people. He is a sannyāsī since 1966. Point six, Blitz: Substantial amounts of foreign money is being received by ISKCON India Limited. ISKCON: First of all, our society is registered and called ISKCON, not ISKCON India Limited." They are purposefully being sarcastic. "It is not a business house. Yes, we do receive remittances from abroad. Every paisa that has been remitted from abroad has come through the reserve bank of India. Bhaktivedanta Swami has written over eighty books which are being sold in every country in the world. These books are selling twelve doubled(?) sixty thousand dollars daily which is about five lakhs. We have over a hundred centers all over the world and all these centers are being run by book sales. In the last three years, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust has published over two million hardbound big books. About three and a half million softbound medium size books and about fifteen million magazines on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you can see the wide acceptance of these books. Out of the 2,800 major universities in America, about ninety percent have purchased one or more of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda's books. Occasionally we receive contributions. This is not in cash but in kind. For example, Alfred Ford donated two buildings to our Society, one in Honolulu Hawaii, and the other in Detroit, America. In London..." Prabhupāda: Thank you. You can go and play. You cannot understand. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Go and play. "In London, George Harrison donated a big castle which is now called Bhaktivedanta Manor. We have purchased many buildings and converted them to temples from the sale of our books. What is wrong if a portion of Bhaktivedanta Book Trust sales are transferred to India for construction of temples? Fifty percent of Bhaktivedanta Book Trust income is spent for further publishing and the other fifty percent is spent to build temples all over the world. In fact, Blitz should appreciate this because Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda's books are bringing valuable overseas currency into the country without any cost to the Indian public. Point seven. Blitz: In Bombay they have put up a temple with a barbed fence around it. ISKCON There is no barbed wire around the temple. We invite Blitz to show us the barbed wire." There's no barbed wire. "Point eight. Blitz: Already rupees twelve lakhs have been spent on an unfinished temple in Vṛndāvana. ISKCON: Blitz does not know that the Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple in Vṛndāvana was completed and officially inaugurated by Dr. Chenna Reddy, governor of U.P., in April, 1975." They are saying the temple is still being made. "Point nine. Blitz: Their major center seems to be in Orissa, the land of princes and paupers. They have built a center close to an atomic energy commission complex. ISKCON: How foolish. Our major center is not in Orissa, but in Śrīdhāma Māyāpura in West Bengal. Māyāpura is the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, an incarnation of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. We are coming in Lord Caitanya's disciplic succession and therefore we want to develop Māyāpura and make this an international center. In Orissa, we do have two devotees living in three huts in Bhuvaneśvara. They are living on a piece of land that was donated by one of our life members from Calcutta. If at all it is near the Atomic Energy Commission, it is only by coincidence." Prabhupāda: It was donated by the late governor and Central Minister. Nityananda Kananda. (?) *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He donated it. Okay, I'll write down his name them. "Gaura*-Govinda Swami, a 45 year old retired teacher from Orissa is in charge of our Bhuvaneśvara center." So they'll know. "Point ten..." Prabhupāda: So that land was donated by a prominent man. Nityananda Kananda (?) was central government minister and later on governor of Gujarat. And he often comes to see me in Calcutta. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "Point ten. Blitz: It has started taking interest in politics. It has started a political party in U.S.A. called "In God We Trust" party. ISKCON: ISKCON is not involved in politics at all anywhere in the world. Two American devotees did contest some civic elections for which a party called 'In God We Trust' was formed. The purpose of that campaign was to remind everyone to remember the Lord at all times, as everything belongs to God. Our spiritual master dissolved In God We Trust party in U.S.A. four years ago. Furthermore, there were never any plans to set up In God We Trust in India. We challenge Blitz to show us any evidence to support their claim. Point eleven. Blitz: As far back as 1971, the Maharastra government has taken action against the foreign devotees who have chosen to overstay in Bombay and elsewhere. ISKCON: This statement is also incorrect. The Maharastra government has never taken any action against our devotees. Point twelve. Blitz: The government has decided to stop specialized facilities rendered to foreign devotees seeking to popularize Kṛṣṇa in India. ISKCON: We are very grateful to the government of India for giving us facilities for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The government has not withdrawn any special facilities that have been given to us earlier. So I'm sure you can see by now the extent to which Blitz has misreported ISKCON activities in India. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that one day in every town and village of the world this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement would be spread. The Vedic culture is India's real heritage and we want to popularize it in every corner of the world. Even in black Africa we have locals that have joined." Prabhupāda: Every corner of the world for world peace. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, for "world peace." Do you have a pen? No. Hari-śauri: You don't have any light. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I need my pen. It's missing. I found it. Prabhupāda: Because this is the only platform for united nations which is practically demonstrated. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the only platform for... Prabhupāda: United Nations which is practically demonstrated. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...is practical... (writing down) Prabhupāda: Our movement, all over the world they have joined. Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, and Africans. All, everywhere. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "ISKCON has devotees in all parts of the world in all nationalities, including Muslims." *Prabhupāda: Samaḥ sarveṣu*-bhūteṣu. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "Should the government need any further information we will be more than happy and pleased to cooperate in all respects. With kindest regards. Your sincerely, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa dāsa, Secretary, ISKCON." It's okay? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is nicely done. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So this is a point by point reply. So now no one can open their mouth. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. It is very intelligent. (Hindi) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And I thought we'd give both Blitz and ISKCON so you can see right there. Prabhupāda: So if Mr. Modi discusses this it will be a great help. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Now the other book I want to write, it's facts about ISKCON, or what is ISKCON. We will call that booklet "What is ISKCON." And then in a question and answer form, give all the answers. What is ISKCON, where does ISKCON get its income from, who are the people who run ISKCON, everything that they ask. Prabhupāda: What is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it came from Delhi from shopping. Prabhupāda: They are shopping from Delhi? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He was supposed to go to Delhi, few items. They're better and cheaper sometimes. So now I'll work on the other booklet which the defense minister wanted, "What is ISKCON." A small, like "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is Authorized," on that form with some reviews. Prabhupāda: You can start this fan. No, no. Yes. Hari-śauri: This one? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is stopped. Caraṇāravindam: The mains has been turned off, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There is no water coming from the mains. Hari-śauri: They've turned the water off somewhat. Prabhupāda: No, no, it is dropping. Hari-śauri: No, it's raining. Prabhupāda: Oh. Then we cannot sit. [break] ...book is going on. (Bengali) This is our childhood song. (Bengali) The small drops of rain falling, now their will be flood in the river. (Bengali) [break] We know even in October sometimes there are rains. Because the Durgā Pūjā takes place in October. From our childhood we have experience. During Durgā Pūjā there was raining, fog. Hari-śauri: We haven't got rid of those monkeys. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They've gone? Hari-śauri: No. There's some on the roof. Prabhupāda: The (indistinct) is there? In the open? Hari-śauri: No, it's undercover. Devotee: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hari-śauri: I was just telling him the monkeys are still there. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're still there? They've gone. Caraṇāravindam: I've just seen five minutes ago. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We know where those monkeys are coming from. Hari-śauri: The monkeys live on the porch. One of those porches on the guest house where Arundhatī's room is. Around the other side. Prabhupāda: You have not closed? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're not in the dome. We looked into that. It's covered. Dome's completely... Prabhupāda: No, the top room they have not closed? Hari-śauri: No, they have balconies. They said... I was told that they're living on one of the balconies around the other side where Arundhatī's room is. They don't chase them away so they just stay. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I just want the name of the person who gave us that land in Orissa because I'm getting this retyped. Prabhupāda: The name is Nityananda Kananda. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Kananda. What was his title before? What was he...? Ex*-governor? Prabhupāda: He was a minister in the central government, deputy minister. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Deputy minister. Prabhupāda: Deputy minister in the central government. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: During when? Approximately? Prabhupāda: During Jawaharlal Nehru's time. And later on governor of Gujarat. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Governor of? Prabhupāda: Gujarat. Now he's retired. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, this is very good. This will get them to shut up their mouth completely. Okay. Prabhupāda: So? Why you are unnecessarily... Hari-śauri: It's not... Just dripping a little bit. It's not so bad. I'm just wearing the cādara to keep the mosquitos off. I'm getting bitten, so I'm wearing a cādara to keep the insects away. Prabhupāda: So it is coming again. (fountain starts) [break] ...very celebrated astrologer. Akṣayānanda: Yes. He said, "Well, Bhaktisiddhānta Mahārāja was." Prabhupāda: But he gave up. Akṣayānanda: That's what I told him. Instead of Sūryasiddhānta he became Bhaktisiddhānta. Prabhupāda: If he wanted he could have practiced lucratively. But he gave up. Akṣayānanda: Yes, very good. Prabhupāda: And he had many students. (pause) (indistinct) He dropped in the fountain? Akṣayānanda: No, he's going on the outside. Hari-śauri: He swims around sometimes inside. Prabhupāda: They like it. But they make sound. [break] So if actually I am serious to serve Kṛṣṇa I must begin immediately. Hari-śauri: So that means utilizing whatever you already know. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's right. Because there is no guarantee. Suppose you are learning some art to serve Kṛṣṇa. In the meantime if death takes place... Hari-śauri: Then no service. *Prabhupāda: Then if you could not learn the art, at the same time you miss Kṛṣṇa's service. So that is not our principle. We want to serve Kṛṣṇa, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. Whatever work you already expert, you do that. Just like he is doing. Whatever he knows, he is giving service. He's not going for sewing cloth. Because he does not know that. Why should he waste time? He knows this art, let him do. That is service. Whatever you know, Kṛṣṇa can accept any service. Kṛṣṇa is not one*-sided. Because He is everything, so he can accept every service, anything. That is stated, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. Whatever you know, you try to please Kṛṣṇa, or Kṛṣṇa's representative. The same thing. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Whatever you know, saṁsiddhiḥ, the perfection is, hari-toṣaṇam. So we... Whatever we already know. If he's a medical man, whatever little medical knowledge he has got, he can utilize it by serving. Why he should go to Āyur-vedic? That is not. Devotee: Long time ago you wrote a letter to Jadurāṇī to do that. Jadurāṇī, she wants to do service. Prabhupāda: Yes, I thought that when she first came I saw that here she has got a little tendency for painting. So I engaged immediately, that you go on painting, whatever you can. So in the beginning she was not good painter. But still I said, "Anyway, you paint Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nityānanda. And whatever you paint, it is accepted." It is not the art, but it is the service. Hari-śauri: His point was that he doesn't have any service. So he was thinking if he learned something, because he already has a medical background... Prabhupāda: So let him serve in that way. If he has got a little medical background, let him utilize that. *Hari-śauri: Yes. He wanted to branch out into Āyur*-vedic so that he could... Prabhupāda: That is his whims. That is not service. Hari-śauri: I'll write him a letter. Caraṇāravindam: There's a toad in the fountain. Prabhupāda: He has already gone? Caraṇāravindam: He's been in and out. He's had his swim. He's doing service for you. I brought him three or four days ago to the garden. Prabhupāda: What service he is doing? Caraṇāravindam: He is eating all the bugs. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Caraṇāravindam: He eats bugs and those nasty flies. Prabhupāda: Oh, they eat bugs? Caraṇāravindam: Yes. They do very good service in gardens. Gardener's friend, the toad. Grass snakes, earthworm and the toad and frog. Gardener's friends. He'll sit there and he'll wait for a fly to come. Prabhupāda: Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. One life is food for the another life. Kṛṣṇa has made such an arrangement that every living entity has got some service. So he's allowed to do the service, then he's finished by another living entity. Caraṇāravindam: A big snake may come and eat him. [break] Hari-śauri: They eat off fat banana leaves in Māyāpura all the time. Prabhupāda: Very good. Common man in Bengal, Orissa, they'll take on banana leaves all vegetable preparations. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when he was invited by Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, he was taking on banana leaves. Caraṇāravindam: I have some bitter gourd. I'm going to dry it and we can plant the seeds, karelā. Prabhupāda: Karelā it is also... Caraṇāravindam: Wonderful sabji. Hari-śauri: Paṭola? Prabhupāda: Paṭola also. Hari-śauri: Can that be grown? Paṭola. Prabhupāda: Paṭola, both leaves and fruits they're useful. Very useful. Caraṇāravindam: What is that? Hari-śauri: Little round, green, oblong shape. Looks like a small cucumber. About this long. You can see some in the kitchen. [break] Prabhupāda: You give me lunch in banana leaves. Give me. Hari-śauri: We were doing that in Māyāpura. I remember last time. Prabhupāda: Because there are so many banana leaves. You can utilize it. One leaf is sufficient for four plates at least. Caraṇāravindam: Actually I must confess, generally most days I use a bit of banana leaf to take some of your remnants on. Take a bit on a banana leaf, and then take from there. It is very handy. Actually the monkeys they come and also they eat this leaf. They often come and tear off a piece of leaf and sit on this eating them. Monkey. Prabhupāda: That is destructive. They do not know. Caraṇāravindam: They sit there eating them. Prabhupāda: Because they do not get anything they make mischief. They're very mischievous. If they do not get any eatables they will cause mischief. Caraṇāravindam: They sometimes come if a new shoot in the banana. The inside shoot, they break and take that. They seem to enjoy. I've seen them. They break it and eat it. Hari-śauri: Do monkeys have any use? (laughs) Prabhupāda: They have only use, their fat is very good medicine for burns. Some portion is burned, monkey fat is very good medicine. The Chinese eat their brains. Caraṇāravindam: The Japanese also do that. They drink it. They drink it through straws. Prabhupāda: Monkey brain? Caraṇāravindam: Yes. They cut the skull off a live monkey. They cut the skull off like egg and drink the brain through straw. I read in magazine how they do this. It's very common practice now. Prabhupāda: Where they get this monkeys? Caraṇāravindam: The monkey's alive and as you drink its brain it dies. They think this is also sport to them. Big horrible demons. Devotee: In New York, I heard... Hari-śauri: Andy Warhol. Now... Before I joined the movement I was working on a mining camp and they used to serve out sheep's brains every day. It was a big favorite with the Yugoslavs. Sheep's brains and... Caraṇāravindam: Hearts. Prabhupāda: Living sheep and cut? Hari-śauri: No, no. They kill them first. It's like the Arabs. They eat sheep's eyeballs. Prabhupāda: They eat? Hari-śauri: Yes. The eyeball. They think it's a great delicacy. Prabhupāda: Now their delicacy their own children. [break] ...big stack of bricks, iron. Left over. *Hari-śauri: Sometimes they don't even finish the buildings they're building. That building across the road from our temple in New York, that's been there five years like that, half*-completed. *Prabhupāda: Now things are deteriorating. And fire is always... (Siren bell sound:) dungdung dungdungdungdungdung*-gawaawaawaa. Saṁsāra-dāvānala. Still they think that they are advanced. In one hour three times fire, still he is advanced. Therefore he is mūḍha. At least, in small city such disturbances are not... It is always gawaagawaagawaa. Hari-śauri: Police, ambulance, fires. Prabhupāda: How the city life is attractive we cannot understand. Hari-śauri: (laughs) Ask him. He's always telling us how New York is the best place in the world. Prabhupāda: You were born in New York? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: That is mother and... (laughter) Jananī jana. (Sanskrit) Any rotten place, but birthplace has got some attraction. Harikeśa: I feel perfectly at home there. Prabhupāda: That is natural. Just like when I go to Calcutta. Therefore a sannyāsī is forbidden to live in his native place. There will be attraction. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never returned to Navadvīpa. [break] ...no striking six o'clock. Did you mark it? Hari-śauri: I never hear him ring it. At least the one in the daytime. I think evenings he rings it. Harikeśa: I heard the four o'clock. Prabhupāda: He is not regular. That means he's another lazy fellow. All lazy fellows. Harikeśa: He sits out here and he sleeps. He sleeps on the steps. I caught him last night. Hari-śauri: When I was here before, sometimes I would go up to the caukidāra at night. They used to carry this big spear. A pole with a big sharp point on it. Metal point. And I would take his spear and stick it in his ribs and then he would wake up, "Oh." And then he would smile. Prabhupāda: We have to maintain some paid... Harikeśa: We've had so many caukidāras here and not one of them has ever... (end) Prabhupāda: ...of United Nations. (Hindi) ...practically they do. Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jews, African, and so... Indian man: Real United Nations. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The real United Nations. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. (Hindi) Kṛṣṇotkīrtana*-gāna. Not otherwise. In some place I said that this United Nations... Hari-śauri: Oh, in Melbourne. In Melbourne they put it on the front page. Prabhupāda: Melbourne, yes. It was published in the paper, that "It is a dog's barking association." (laughter) It was published. Indian man: Published. Hari-śauri: Front page. (laughter) Prabhupāda: And he added something, that "Swami is hounding." Hari-śauri: Yes, the heading was, "His Divine Grace has come here to hound us." And then the article was Prabhupāda describing how the United Nations was a collection of dogs barking. (laughter) Prabhupāda: My point was that if you bring some dogs and ask them, "My dear dogs, sit down here peacefully. Don't bark. Don't create trouble." Will they do? Will they do? Indian man: No. Prabhupāda: If you keep them dogs, how it is possible they will be peaceful? Indian man: So long as they are dogs it is not possible. *Prabhupāda: It is not possible. And so long one is in the bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this, I am that," and all of them go to the United Nation assembly... So what is the difference when a dog thinks that "I am dog, I am this dog." And an American or Indian thinks "I am a..." Where is the difference? So as American, as Indian, as German, as Chinese, if they go there, they remain animal, and how there can be peace? That is not possible. And the peace formula is given by Kṛṣṇa. Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 5.29]. When one understands Kṛṣṇa is suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati. That is śāntim. So if you keep them as Americans, or Indians, or this or that, how there can be peace? Hari-śauri: That was front page. Indian man: (laughs) He's here to hound us. (laughs) (Hindi) (reading from paper) "His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the founder of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is here to save us from a dog's life." (laughter) "He's here to save us from a dog's life. For unless we can get some spiritual knowledge, warns His Divine Grace, we are left with a dog mentality." *Hari-śauri: This was the New York Ratha*-yātrā. This was in New York Times. *Indian man: The Ratha*-yātrā is held on 7th Avenue... (several talking at once) Prabhupāda: They admitted: "This is the East and West meeting." Hari-śauri: "Fifth Avenue: Where East Meets West." Indian man: "Where East Meets West." Ah. Hari-śauri: And this one is in South Africa. *Prabhupāda: Last year we introduced Ratha*-yātrā in Philadelphia. It was very successful. And this year we have introduced in New York. It is also very successful. Everyone, government official, police, public, all enjoyed. And the Fifth Avenue is the most important avenue in the world, Fifth Avenue. So our procession was how many miles? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: From Washington Square Park... How many miles? At least four or five miles. Pradyumna: Central Park to Washington Square Park. All the way. Full length of the Avenue. Complete. From one end to the other. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The government had sealed it off. Indian man: What is the effect on Russians, this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Here the Russians are afraid of this movement. They are very much afraid. And therefore they are greatest enemy in India. CPI. They are putting so many impediments. Indian man: (Hindi) China? Prabhupāda: China. (Hindi) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they like Prabhupāda's books. Russian scholars have praised Prabhupāda's books. I was in Russia two months ago. They have praised Prabhupāda's books very much. Indian man: Sir, what is your opinion about Sai Baba? (laughter) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Jugglery. Indian man: No avatāra has declared so far that "I'm avatāra." *Prabhupāda: He is... What is called avatāra? He has no, nothing on the śāstra basically. And anyone who has no śāstra basics, he's useless. Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ na sa siddhim avāpnoti [Bg. 16.23]. He can cheat so many fools and rascals, it has no meaning. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about this kind of guru. They have been condemned in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. I think you'll find out at the end of the Twenty-fourth Chapter, Eighth Canto. They have been condemned. [break] Now what is the benefit? From rational point of view, suppose he can manufacture gold. That is his jugglery. Eh? He can manufacture some gold? So far I have heard. I've not seen. Indian man: I don't know. He does some kind of trick. Prabhupāda: Suppose he manufactures a little gold. So far I have heard. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Not gold. He does other magic. Gold also, but other magic. Prabhupāda: What is that other magic? Generally he... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Generally, it is said he blesses sick people who have diseases and they get cured. Prabhupāda: So that is done by medical men also, so what is the excellence. Huh? Hari-śauri: One man said that once he was traveling in his car and a train came, and the train hit the car and he was thrown out, but somehow or other he survived. He said he was thrown out to the left hand side and the train stopped, came to a sudden standstill just as it hit the car. So then he said he went to see Sai Baba, and then Sai Baba looked at him and he said, "Oh, you have been in an accident and your car was hit by the train. But I stopped the train and threw you to the left and therefore you were not injured." Like this. And he also mentioned that at that time you should think of God. Prabhupāda: If he can do so, can he save him from death? If he's so powerful. Indian man: That is very easy. I can also do that. (laughter) I know the trick. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the trick? Indian man: I'll not tell it to you. (laughter) Prabhupāda: No. These tricky things are... They have no... Hari-śauri: Sometimes he conjures up different items in his hand. Like he can conjure up a watch. Or there's a particular type of nut that is found in Nepal. So some American scientist was trying to get him to... Prabhupāda: You have found out that portion? Pradyumna: I'm just, I'm getting... Hari-śauri: They were trying to get him to give some examples. So he refused. Then he produced this nut in his hand. Then he closed his fist and opened it again and the nut was there but this time it had a gold cross attached to it like this. And then he... Prabhupāda: Now what is the result of showing these tricks? What is the ultimate result? Indian man: B.N. Sarkar shows much better tricks than that. Prabhupāda: Yes. B.N. Sarkar, he was going on cycle in London, busy street and his eyes bound up. Everyone has seen it. He was going on cycle in busy... Ordinary street he was going, and his eyes were bound up. Everyone has seen. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Vice Chancellor of Bangalore University along with some other professors, they decided to do research into all these so*-called gods like Sai Baba. There's another six year old "god" called Bhagavān Śrī Kṛṣṇa. So they sent Sai Baba a questionnaire. He did not reply. Then this Vice Chancellor with a group of professors, they went to this six year old Bhagavān Śrī Kṛṣṇa. He was producing ash with some magic. Prabhupāda: Ash? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ash. So all the local, a big crowd would come to see him. So they went and they sat right next to the child. So that day the ash was not produced. So later on the whole thing got exploded and the child's parents admitted it was bogus. Now that "god" is finished. Bhagavān Śrī Kṛṣṇa. He was six year old Śrī Kṛṣṇa. So this Sai Baba refused to answer the questionnaire. He said, "Why should I respond to these people?" Indian man: He's angry from that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This group of professors, they're exposing all these bogus gurus who are saying they are God. Prabhupāda: Have you got it? Pradyumna: Yes. *Prabhupāda: What is that? Acakṣuḥ? Andhasya. Abudho guru. So andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. They are gurus. They are blind, and they are guru for blind men. Abudho guru. These have been described in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. If we are to accept guru, so the original guru is Kṛṣṇa because He instructed Lord Brahmā, the first living creature within this universe. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye [SB 1.1.1]. He instructed the ādi-kavi. He is the guru, Kṛṣṇa. And in the Bhagavad-gītā He also says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. So He is ādi-guru. In Bhagavad-gītā also He is instructing Arjuna. He is ādi-guru. So instead of this tricky, jugglery guru, why not people approach Kṛṣṇa? Therefore acakṣur andha. (Hindi) Read this verse again. Pradyumna: Acakṣur andhasya yathāgraṇīḥ kṛtas tathā janasyāviduṣo 'budho guruḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Aviduṣaḥ abudho guruḥ. (Hindi) You can bring something... (Hindi) If things are very easy, why they go round about way? Bhagavān svayam (Hindi), man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.65]. (Hindi for some time) I went to see the Ramakrishna Mission head, Prabodhananda Swami. So just by seeing me, he immediately said that Thakur was formerly Gaura Hari. Indian man: What Swamiji? Gauḍīya? Gaura Hari. Prabhupāda: Gaura Hari. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna Thakur, Thakur Rama... He was formerly Gaursundara. Gaurasundara (Hindi to end) *Room Conversation-*-September 7, 1976, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: ...forest, naked, renounced, eating fruits. But debauch number one. Markaṭa-vairāgya. There are so many vairāgīs. Markaṭa. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said, ei 'ta kali-celā. Here is a disciple of Kali. Nāke tilaka galāi mālā. But has got a tilaka on the forehead and neckbeads on the neck. But is Kali-celā-number one disciple of Kali. You know this song? Kali-celā. These persons who are committing sinful life-don't say anyone (laughs) or publish-there will be trouble. But that's a fact. Those who are living in Vṛndāvana and acting like monkey, they'll get next life*-a monkey. To remain in Vṛndāvana, and then next life they will be liberated. In one life all their sinful activities will be punished. Because as soon as animal life is obtained, there is no more further record of the sinful life. The animals cannot make sinful activities more than what is destined by him. But their sinful activity is not taken into account. For this man who is offered this monkey's body, he suffers the inconvenience of monkey life. So his sinful activities are counteracted, and because he came to Vṛndāvana and lived in Vṛndāvana by the mercy of Rādhārāṇī, next life he will be... That is the glory of Vṛndāvana-dhāma. Otherwise what is the explanation of these dogs and hogs and monkeys in Vṛndāvana? If it is dhāma-aparādha, committing offense in dhāma. Dhāma-aparādha. As dhāma-bhajana, if one undergoes devotional service out of Vṛndāvana and one executes devotional service in Vṛndāvana, that is hundred times better. Similarly dhāma-aparādha also. This aparādha, when offense is committed outside Vṛndāvana, that is not so grievous as committing offense in Vṛndāvana. Dhāma-aparādha. So the punishment is there, but the reward is also there. One life makes pardoned. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇo bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam [SB 10.14.8]. Therefore a devotee in a reverse condition of life, he understands that "I am punished. Little punished for my previous mischievous activities. So now I am becoming liberated." So he becomes more enthused to worship the Lord, that "You are finishing my sinful reaction of life with slight punishment. Thank you very much. This is devotee. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇaḥ. Harikeśa: The dogs and monkeys, they feel grateful? Prabhupāda: Yes, when they come to sense they feel grateful. As dogs they cannot. As dog or monkey they cannot enhance their sinful activities. It is stopped. And whatever they do, that is not taken into account. And to suffer as dog or monkey means counteracting all previous sins. One punishment finished. Then he's fully liberated. Harikeśa: I was always wondering that if somebody's desire is to commit sinful activities... *Prabhupāda: No, in Kali*-yuga if you desire it is not sinful. And act... Harikeśa: If they desire to commit sinful activities and before they became monkeys, but then they were doing it then. So whilst they're monkeys their desire must change. Or is it forced, that change forced upon them by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: But if desire changes, then where is punishment? If he's repentant, then there is no punishment. Harikeśa: So before they go back to the spiritual world that desire must change. Prabhupāda: This is forceful change. That is the advantage of Vṛndāvana bhajana. Harikeśa: That is very good. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: But not that willfully do something wrong. There is punishment. If one unconsciously, without any knowledge, does something wrong, that is excused. But they do willfully. They know it is wrong, still they do it. That is punished. Knowingly. Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally said, asat eka strī*-saṅgī. Those who are habituated to illicit sex are punishable. Asat. It is very, very bad. And still if somebody does like that, he is punished. This is going on. "All right." Here illicit sex... The bābājīs, I heard, they say, "What is the wrong there? It is love." They say like that. They take it as love. "Gopī's love," they say. "Gopī's used to do that, used to have illicit mixing, intermingling with Kṛṣṇa. What is wrong?" They'll say. They get support from Kṛṣṇa līlā. Such rogues they are. Sahajiyās. There are many so-called gentlemen, they write books on Kṛṣṇa līlā, paint picture." This is very nice. Kṛṣṇa is advocating illicit intermingling." They take it as support of their sinful activities. I have seen personally. Anyone who is a woman-hunter, he's being addressed by his friend, "Oh, you are like Kṛṣṇa." They take Kṛṣṇa as a man. How they will take instruction of Kṛṣṇa? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. We are teaching people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, to become servant of Kṛṣṇa, and the so-called gentlemen, enlightened gentlemen, take Kṛṣṇa as a debauch. Black debauch. [break] ...Vaiṣṇava religion is sex. [break] There are aborigines in India. Santal, (?) they are called santal. Black men, live in the forest like the African aborigines. So I asked him that "You, jungle, do you meet the tigers?" "Oh, yes, yes. Why not?" "So how do you save yourself?" So he had a small axe in his hand. So he showed me that "So long I have got this axe, even the tiger will not dare to attack me." (Bengali or Hindi) After all, tiger is afraid of the axe. They are afraid of even stick. That immediately they understand, "He's superior." Actually man is superior with some weapon. I have got personal experience. He said, "He's a big tiger. But we treat them like dogs." One axe. They keep always. Just like we keep a stick, they keep one axe. *Harikeśa: Last year they bit Upendra. Remember that? Upendra went to Sevā*-kuñja and the monkeys came and took away all of his prasādam and bit him in the leg. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Many monkeys were deported by the government but people protested. They were capturing monkeys... Harikeśa: Here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Government. And selling at good price in Europe for taking their hormone. The monkey's hormone is injected or replaced so one regains his sex power. They are very sexually strong. Harikeśa: That must interfere with that monkey's spiritual life. That interferes with the spiritual life of the monkey? Because then he can't die in Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: It is further from them. Everything is being done by superior arrangement. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. People should learn all these things by practical example instead of becoming irresponsible and without any obedience to the superior law. They should learn it, but they have no intelligence. They think, "We are all free." Wherefrom the monkey is coming, why there are so many varieties of life, how it is...? What do they know? Nothing. All bluff, vague explanation and that is going on in the name of science. This is the position. All rascals. Fortunately we have got this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā. All knowledge. First-class knowledge. [break] ...eternally-enjoyment. For him everything, ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Everything ānanda. He has no such thing that this is harmful, that this is useful. That is Kṛṣṇa. Because nobody can do harm to Him and neither in the spiritual world, anyone is harmful. Everyone is advanced devotee. Even the tigers, they are also devotees. Harikeśa: Tigers? Prabhupāda: Varieties are there. Hari-śauri: They have tigers and serpents and everything like that? Prabhupāda: Everything. They are all devotees. Harikeśa: There are no dogs and hogs. Prabhupāda: Yes. The hogs may be also there. Hari-śauri: Hogs are there as well? *Prabhupāda: But they are not hog. Just like Kṛṣṇa appears as hog, but that doesn't mean He's hog. Kṛṣṇa appears as fish. That does not mean He's fish. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (someone offers obeisances*-end) *Room Conversation-*-September 9, 1976, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: The king and the daughter went to a great muni's house, a saintly person. Cyavana Muni, Cyavana Muni. And the daughter, young daughter, out of ignorance, she committed some offense. Took one straw and pierced through one insect. The muni was sitting there as insect. So the result was-because she offended*-all the men of the king, means the soldiers, the secretaries, they stopped passing urine and stool. Hari-śauri: The muni was there in the form of an insect? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: And she pierced him. Oh. Prabhupāda: So the result was all of them became without passing stool. So the king could understand there is some offense. So... Because formerly the kings were saintly persons. He asked all his men, "What you have done?" Then the girl said, "Father, I have done something." Then he made this plea that, "Kindly excuse this girl... Out of ignorance..." He was very angry, that Cyavana Muni. His attitude was always angry. Then all of them became very much aggrieved. Then he asked, "Whether your girl is married?" King could understand that "He wants to marry my daughter. Otherwise, why he's inquiring." And he was so old... I have got my skin still tight. All loose. Hari-śauri: He was all slack. *Prabhupāda: And he was old. So he had to agree. Otherwise, the whole thing was catastrophe. So the king said, "Yes. She's not married. If you like I can offer my daughter to you." Then everything was settled up. But the daughter was young, and he was like her grand, great*-grandfather. Match was not at all suitable, but he had to offer. So this girl also took it seriously, and she was serving the old husband very faithfully like honest, chaste wife. Never mind. Then, some days after, the same saintly person was visited by two heavenly physicians, aśvinī-kumāras. The aśvinī-kumāras, they had some difficulty. They were not allowed in the society of the demigods while drinking soma-rasa. They had some defects, something like that. So when the physician came to see Cyavana Muni he said that "If you can give me young age, beautiful, you can make me by your treatment beautiful young man, which is very pleasing to young girls, then I shall give you the facility of drinking soma-rasa in the society of demigods." "Yes." So he made him very nice beautiful-looking young man by taking him to a certain lake, and they dipped down and all of them became fresh young men, beautiful, very beautiful. So his chaste wife, she could not recognize, "Who is my husband?" They look all very beautiful young men. Hari-śauri: Cyavana and his followers? *Prabhupāda: No, Cyavana became young and the aśvinī*-kumāras also became... Hari-śauri: Oh, they all went in. *Prabhupāda: They dipped down in a certain lake. In this way, he became a very beautiful young man. Then for soma*-yajña, his father-in-law, the daughter's father came. He came. So he was surprised, "How is that? My daughter is with another young man?" He became angry. "My dear daughter, what is this? You are defaming your husband's family and my family." He began to chastise like that. And just see. Because he sees that "I got my daughter married with old Cyavana. How is that, with a young man?" Just see. Condemned like anything. And she was laughing. She knew that "I have not changed my husband. A change of body." Then she said, "My dear father, don't be angry. He's your real son-in-law. He has become now young by treatment." Then he was very pleased and embraced his daughter, that "You are so nice." This is Vedic civilization. Even one has got old, going to die husband, she cannot change. This is the chastity. Hari-śauri: Once a woman was married, then that was finished. No connection with another man. Prabhupāda: No, no. That one marriage is sufficient. She must remain very faithful to her husband, chaste. That is wanted. Not that "I do not like this husband. I'll change." That is not wanted. Hari-śauri: That's Western mentality. *Prabhupāda: Whatever your father and mother has chosen, that's all. He's your worshipable husband. This is the... This point I wanted to bring. And her father was surprised. "How is that? I got you married with an old man? Somehow or other, circumstances I was obliged. How is that you have picked up one young man?" He chastised her like anything. Then when he came to understand that the same old man has become now young man by medical treatment, then he was satisfied. So you cannot change. I have seen it. One, my father's friend, he was very old man. My father was also... He was at that time not less than sixty*-five. But his wife died, and he was married with another young girl. But his sister forced him to marry. That "Unless you marry, who will look after you? You have no children." But I have seen that young woman who was married with that gentleman... In our childhood we used to called her didi. Didi means elder sister. So the relationship was very thick and thin. But that old man, not less than sixty-five, and this young woman, utmost twenty to twenty-five. She was serving the husband like anything. We have seen it. There is no question of changing or being dissatisfied. Hari-śauri: Now they bring them up to be independent. *Prabhupāda: It is a question of culture. Culture. She was king's daughter, royal, and married her with a muni, old, rotten. Older than me. All the skin has become slackened. But still she was serving him just like worshipable lord. The age difference is great*-grandfather and great-granddaughter. You'll find in Bhāgavatam. Lord Śiva, he could not construct even a house. He was living underneath a tree. And his wife, Durgā, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā [Bs. 5.44]. She can create a new world, so powerful, Durgā. She's living with her husband underneath a tree. Never claims, "My dear husband, if you cannot, I can make one." There is a story about that. That, "People criticize us. All right, let us have some house." So Lord Śiva, Durgā, both of them capable to do anything. So they constructed a very nice gold house. "Now we shall live." So there is new house entering ceremony. So one Gargamuni was invited as brāhmaṇa. Many other brāhmaṇas. So they began to eat so much... That story I'm now forgetting. Then whatever stock they have finished, when, after eating, when they wanted, "Give us dakṣiṇā." Because after eating there is... So Lord Śiva, where shall I get everything? I have finished." Then they became puzzled what to do. So Lord Śiva said, "All right, you take this house." Again they became underneath a tree. (laughs) "All right, as dakṣiṇā you take this house. Don't bother." Their house entrance ceremony was there. As a result of that ceremony they became again underneath a tree. (About someone else:) What they're doing? (end) Prabhupāda: ... because as soon as the ship stopped, Commonwealth Pier, Boston, the immigration department came and took their papers. So I entered America in Boston. There was no checking in New York. The ship stopped in Boston. The official entrance was done there. Then when I came to New York, it is just like one day's travel. Harikeśa: And then you went directly to Pennsylvania? By bus? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Then one agent, appointed by my host, Gopal Agarwal. He was in Butler. So he arranged with some professional what is called, host. Harikeśa: Travel agent? Prabhupāda: Maybe travel agent. He came to see me, that "I am sent by Gopal Agarwal, so I'll arrange for your dispatch. You come with me." Hari-śauri: Dr. Agarwal was your sponsor? Prabhupāda: Yes. His father came to see me some time in Agra. Agra. His father, mother came. Hari-śauri: And then they suggested that he be your sponsor. Prabhupāda: It was all by chance. I was for a few days guest at his father's place in Agra. I did not know that his son is in America. So he was talking about his family. He was little sorry that his eldest son went to America to study electric engineering, and he was entrapped by an English girl, and he married and settled there and did not come back. In this way... So I took the opportunity, that "Why don't you ask your son to sponsor me?" I wanted to go to America. So I did not know how seriously he took it. But I simply told him that "Why don't you ask your son to sponsor me at least for one month. So I am thinking of going to America." Then that was talking, beginning and end, that's all. I did not know that he took it very seriously. Then after two, three months, some documents came. I was receiving my letters in a post box. So when I left Delhi I used to keep my key of post box with some nice bookseller, Atmaram, he was manager. So he opened that, he got that documents. That is No Objection Certificate, Sponsor, and everything. I was out of Delhi. Then when I came back I took it. So everything was there, that sheet (indistinct) from the Indian Consulate, No Objection Certificate. Then I applied for a passport. In this way I had to go. So Gopal was unknown to me, but his father was, his father was known to me. His father was... Then his agent got me on the bus. So on the bus (I) went to Pennsylvania. Hari-śauri: That's a long drive. Prabhupāda: Yes, nine hours on the bus. And I took a little chipped rice, and whatever I had with me. So I got down from the ship about one o'clock. Then I had to wait for the bus till five o'clock. Then at five o'clock the bus started. About two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning, I went to Pennsylvania, and just in front of the bus Gopal was standing with his car, that... What is called? Van Car ? Harikeśa: Stationwagon. Prabhupāda: Stationwagon. So he took my luggage, and from there thirty miles off, the Butler County. So I went there. Then at night he took my (indistinct). The next day, he had no many rooms in his apartment, he arranged for my stay in the YMCA nearby them. Hari-śauri: You never actually stayed with him then. Prabhupāda: I was going. I was taking my meals there. Hari-śauri: Oh. And just keeping a room at the YMCA. Prabhupāda: Because he had no room, so I was staying there. Hari-śauri: And then he arranged programs, speaking programs? Prabhupāda: His wife, Sally. His wife, Sally she was arranging. A very intelligent girl. They were of the same age, about thirty. Gopal was more than thirty and she was (indistinct). I saw that she was feeding her child, one boy, meat powder. Harikeśa: Beef bouillion? Prabhupāda: I do know what is the name. But I asked. she said, "It is meat powder." That is the system? Hari-śauri: When they're very young and they can't eat solids. Prabhupāda: With hot water. Hari-śauri: Yes, they have instant meals for children. All different kinds of things. Prabhupāda: So Gopal was very much pleased that he could get some Indian cāpāṭis, like this. Hari-śauri: So he had you cook for him. You took your cooker with you? Is that the same one? *Prabhupāda: No. So I lived with him for twenty*-one days. Then I came to New York. *Hari-śauri: Yes, that picture in the Butler Eagle. It's in the Vyāsa*-Pūjā book this year. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Butler County, it is good (indistinct), there were many churches (indistinct) people have got so many churches (indistinct) [break] ...some time, that one piece of wire lying in one place, one piece of bamboo was lying in another place, and one dry shell of a squash was lying. So one intelligent man collected. So this dry shell became the tamburā's what is called... Hari-śauri: I don't know. Like sound chamber. What do you call it? Prabhupāda: Sound chamber may be called. So with that dry squash he made the sound chamber. The bamboo he fixed up and the wire upon it and then it became a "Tin, tin, tin, tin..." (laughs) Our organization is like that. I was loitering in the street. Somebody was over there, somebody was there. Not combined together, International Society String Band. Yes. Separately we are all useless. Eh? Hari-śauri: No, we were useless. You were never useless. *Prabhupāda: No, your assistance was required. How you can be useless? We're all useless. But combined together, now we have become a stringed instrument. This is very good example. Separately... Just like the same logic, andha*-khañja. Separately, andha is useless, and khañja is useless. Blind and lame. They cannot do anything. But combined together, they become useful. Then? Hari-śauri: Would you like to reply? Or it's just recorded. Prabhupāda: I shall reply. You find them if they are coming. (end) *Room Conversation-*-September 11, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: "The Baba personifies heaven." (?) (Him?) Hari-śauri: Yes. He said, "Baba personifies this philosophy, that God in man and man in God is the basis of religion. As he told me, "God is man and man is God. All of us have something of God, the divine spark, within us. All men are divine like myself, with the spirit embodied in human flesh and bone. The only difference is that they are unaware of this Godhood." Prabhupāda: Unaware. So God, how he's unaware? Just see. Hari-śauri: They make God so cheap. Prabhupāda: The rascal. Hari-śauri: This is... And then the next part's even worse. "For the doubting or confused minority, to which section I then belonged, Swamiji has this message. "Those who want to secure pearls from the sea have to dive deep to fetch them. It does not help them to dabble among the shallow waves near the shore and say that the sea has no pearls and that all stories about them are false. Likewise, if a person wants to secure the love and grace of the avatāra he must also dive deep and get submerged in Sai Baba. Then only will he become one with me and carry me in his innermost heart." Prabhupāda: Everyone can say like that. What you have done as God? God is an Indian. Making things very complicated. Hari-śauri: Yes, and this man goes on to describe the aura. He goes on to describe how spiritual his presence is. They chant oṁkāra. They chant oṁkāra. Prabhupāda: So, anything about us? He criticized "God is an Indian," that is a criticism. Hari-śauri: No, no. This is a glorification. He's a nationalist; so he's saying God is an Indian. 'Cause it's supposed to be very good. Prabhupāda: How God can be Indian? Then how he's God? God must be for everyone. An Indian God. Hari-śauri: He says here that he is the image of Kṛṣṇa incarnate. Prabhupāda: He says? Hari-śauri: He says, "They say that he's Śiva and Pārvatī combined together. He certainly embodies both masculinity and femininity. Kṛṣṇa, as we read of Him in the scriptures, must have resembled Swamiji. His walk is that of a dancer floating in a graceful movement." Prabhupāda: All right. I will take rest. Hari-śauri: You want to keep this? *Prabhupāda: No, no. (break*-moves to garden) Hari-śauri: They're all Māyāvādīs. He was just... Pradyumna: I was just underlining that thing and... Prabhupāda: So you write. I've already told you. I cannot speak now. You write. I have given you already hints. Pradyumna: Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannam. He says, "I come from the formless." But Kṛṣṇa says anyone who says that is abuddhayaḥ. Prabhupāda: Besides that, He says in another place that as they pass through our existence... [break] ...in future we shall continue, then when he becomes avyakta? Pradyumna: Yes. Past existence he was, future existence he will be when he becomes... Prabhupāda: Past, present, future, there are three times. So if every time he is person, when he becomes imperson? Hari-śauri: And this thing about God is an Indian. *Prabhupāda: And God is an Indian, that is also rascaldom. He says, sarva*-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. So how He's Indian? Throughout the whole universe, as many forms of body are there, He is the father. So how he is Indian? If the father is Indian, then the son is also Indian. So father is not Indian, so how the God can be Indian? Pradyumna: Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. Prabhupāda: Tanum āśritam. This concept of Indian, European is there because you are a mūḍha. Just directly charge him. Directly. That "You are a mūḍha, you are a rascal," immediately. Let him speak. And send it to the newspaper that this letter we have sent challenging this rascal, let him reply. If he does not reply, silent, that means he's accepts he's a rascal. Hari-śauri: Yes, because Blitz has taken up to advertise that he's God, so now they should accept challenge. *Pradyumna: He said self*-realization is God-realization. *Prabhupāda: But you are not self*-realized. You are madman, rascal. How you can be self-realized? A madman cannot be self-realized. *Hari-śauri: Yes. And if he was Kṛṣṇa before, how is it he's disagreeing with what the Bhagavad*-gītā says? Prabhupāda: You are not Kṛṣṇa. Because if you were Kṛṣṇa, then how you can be a rascal? Kṛṣṇa is not a rascal. (end) Saurabha: ...in Bombay. Prabhupāda: So first of all finish your construction. Then you go to (indistinct). Saurabha: (indistinct), they carving the wood and everything, the shape of the... Prabhupāda: Now, we shall bring priests from Hyderabad. Saurabha: Aha. That is the technical thing. But I was speaking regarding the construction because I want to know whether you want to have the bathing ceremony only taking place on the opening day, or also later on the facility can... Prabhupāda: No, no. Saurabha: Only that day. Prabhupāda: Only that day. Saurabha: Then is it necessary to make this special arrangement that this... Prabhupāda: No, no. The small deities, śālagrāma, they are worshiped. And big Deity, they are decorated nicely. No need of worshiping. Saurabha: So only the opening ceremony. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Nitāi had them bathe the big Deities here, Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, on Janmāṣṭamī. *Dhanañjaya: And on Balarāma's appearance day, the big Deities were bathed. Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. Harikeśa: Terrible speculation. Dhanañjaya: Actually Janmāṣṭamī celebrations were very bad and it's very... Prabhupāda: Therefore the color has faded? He is a rascal. Harikeśa: I remember that when these Deities... They're never to be washed. Never water was to touch. Supposed to put a plastic bag over the Deity. That was... If you have to use the big Deities, you're supposed to cover them with plastic. Prabhupāda: Why did you allow? Just see, this is the disease. Rascals they do not know. And although I was... Dhanañjaya: No, but everyone was listening to him. He was posing himself as the most learned in Deity worship. Prabhupāda: That he's fond of. *Dhanañjaya: He was introducing Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa. *Harikeśa: But it doesn't say in Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa that you bathe in water marble Deities. It says you're supposed to have a smaller set for bathing. That's in Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. Dhanañjaya: His idea was that we would become the most famous temple for bathing big Deities in Vṛndāvana. This was his idea. Prabhupāda: That bathing is not done on the siṁhāsana. The Deity is taken out. Then it is done. But that is very risky. You cannot do it. Dhanañjaya: And besides that, the bathing was done by devotees who are not experienced in Deity worship. Prabhupāda: Don't allow him. This botheration he has gone. He is simply posing himself very learned Sanskrit scholar, above everything. That is his ambition. Saurabha: And on the opening day the Deities will be on the altar or they will be in front when they're bathed? When the bathing is taking place in Bombay for the opening... Prabhupāda: That the priest will arrange who will come from... Saurabha: Yes. But they will be on the altar or they will be in front? Prabhupāda: No. In the front they are left. Saurabha: So not on the altar. Prabhupāda: No. But if it is risky, you should not do. Big Deity, we have got big Deity, huh? *Harikeśa: Yes, very heavy. They are very heavy, Rādhā*-Rāsabihārī. Prabhupāda: What they do in Hyderabad? Harikeśa: Hyderabad the Deity was already installed. There was no need for bathing so they didn't do it. Prabhupāda: Other Deities? Dhanañjaya: Here, just like here for the opening on pratiṣṭhā. Harikeśa: Yes, they bathed the small Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Anyway, we should not take risk at any rate. *Harikeśa: Rādhā*-Rāsabihārī, also, when They came from Akash-Ganga there was a disturbance with Them also. Rādhā has a tendency to crack on the arm. Her left arm cracks. Prabhupāda: Where? Harikeśa: Slightly. There was a very weak, it was very weak. Very weak. I remember 'cause they had to move three times. I was there all the times when They were moved. Prabhupāda: In Bombay. Harikeśa: In Bombay. And every time they were very upset because of this left arm. *Prabhupāda: This risk should not be taken at any gain. Never mind Hari*-bhakti-vilāsa, this-vilāsa-no risk. You must always know. No risk. That is the first point. Then we consult Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. Nobody can give reference to Hari-bhakti-vilāsa at risk. No. Not at all. Do? Anything more? Dhanañjaya: Can I ask one question? You were mentioning that you wanted to start local industries, casting Deities. Prabhupāda: Yes, we can purchase... We can... Dhanañjaya: Purchase raw materials? Prabhupāda: So, everything is all right now? Dhanañjaya: So I was wondering... Prabhupāda: Can you come, there... [break] There are, what is called, Deity makers here? Dhanañjaya: Well, most of the Deities, they are cast in Aligarh. Prabhupāda: Aligarh? Oh. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Then they're brought here and there is, craftsmen, they finish. They polish then they add... Prabhupāda: So who is from Aligarh? You go to we have got a best friend in Aligarh. Dhanañjaya: Surendra Kumar. Surendra Kumar. Prabhupāda: Ah. He'll get you all those things. Harikeśa: He should know everything about that because he's making lots. Prabhupāda: And another... Aligarh is the best place. What is that? Devotee: It's the gentleman who was with you last night Śrīla Prabhupāda, Prem Yogi. He has come with his luggage. Prabhupāda: Prem Yogi. So give him that place vacated by the old man. Hari-śauri: Next to Akṣayānanda's room. Seventeen. Take him up there. Harikeśa: Actually you can just bring him to Bhakti Pradhāna and tell him. Bhakti Pradhāna is the manager of the guest house, so he should take care of it. Prabhupāda: No, this old man has gone. So give him that place. Yes. Devotee: I believe there are two men. Prabhupāda: Two men that's all right. Yes. Devotee: Thank you. Prabhupāda: So, you just officially receive them. He's got M.A. Ph.D. Good man. This is etiquette. Dhanañjaya: So, what I wanted to know was that ah... Prabhupāda: No, no. Develop that business and give engagement. The women can live here for sewing. They must be comfortably situated. If they are feeling, women, they cannot feel very bad and stay. We do not want that. So they can live here in a room and work sewing. And our women who have learned, they can teach. Very simple. And men must be engaged there for finishing. And if at Aligarh they are casting, then there is no difference. And there is no difficulty. Dhanañjaya: So the Deity should be cast in Aligarh and then finished here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: Just like we are doing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Aligarh is 45 miles away. You can go and bring them, and Surendranath will help you. If there are expert men in Aligarh, that will be very nice. A different size Deity, you get there. Dhanañjaya: Six inches, nine inches, twelve, fifteen. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And nice Gaura*-Nitāi and Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. And they'll prepare nice dress and pack in a box and send to our different centers. There are hundred centers. If you can dispatch at least one dozen pairs, you can make business for twelve hundred pairs. It will be very big business. And if they are displayed, people will like to purchase. It will be very good business. Dhanañjaya: Even here. For people coming to our temple, if we have display they will purchase. Prabhupāda: Yes. We can have our shop here. We are getting so many shops. So one shop Deity and Deity clothes and mukuṭas. Just like they have got... Dhanañjaya: In Loi Bazaar. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: The same. Harikeśa: One shop sweets. *Prabhupāda: Apply business brain, everything I'll have to tell you. You can... Anyone who has got business brain, he can earn any amount of money. That is the... These are all... Incense, Deity, and then mukuṭa, then tulasī*-mālā, then karatālas, (indistinct), some pañcapātrā. In this way. Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This man brought his friend. That room is not big enough for three. So they will have to take another room for two. Prabhupāda: Friend? Dhanañjaya: One friend has come with him. Harikeśa: That same person from last night, the one wearing white? Prabhupāda: Ah. So the three men cannot live there? Harikeśa: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Harikeśa: It's too small. Prabhupāda: No, no. Not so. First of all, give them, then we shall see later on. Why immediately want facilities? Or he can, the other man can go with the brahmacārīs. Harikeśa: The younger one. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes, somebody may go to the brahmacārīs. Just now make them accommodated there, then we shall see what to do. That "First of all you stay here, then we shall see what is convenient to you then." Harikeśa: Because they're in an awful small room. If I put three in that room, that one man who's already there may become upset. Prabhupāda: He has already gone there? Harikeśa: No, I mean I know. I've been there. But that one man who's there now... Prabhupāda: So four men cannot live in that room? Harikeśa: Three men not possible. Because they've got two beds in there. Two of these big huge... Prabhupāda: At least you provide them two men there and one man with brahmacārīs. That's all. Not that we can spare so many rooms. Harikeśa: If I ask that man who's already there to go to the brahmacārīs, he may become offended. Prabhupāda: Yes, you do that. He can go to the brahmacārīs. That's all. Devotee: You can give him one of those sannyāsī rooms in the brahmacārīs. Harikeśa: All right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Arrange everything. But don't turn this, and very easily give the other guest room. Then it will be awkward like anything. Very cautious. So this is the program I am giving, and if you can give some practical sense, it will be very nice profitable business. Dhanañjaya: Yes. But it will require some capital in the beginning. *Prabhupāda: So capital required we can give. There is no scarcity of capital. But it must be consulted between three*-Gopāla, Viśvambhara, and yourself. And then if capital is required, how capital you will repay. Make them assured. I shall give you. There is no difficulty. Capital you will have, provided you can make profit. Not that we give capital and never return. That will not be possible. Take any amount of capital, but we must be paid interest as bank gives loan. I can say bank will give you. If I order the bank, bank will give you. So capital there is no question. The question is how you shall utilize it. How you shall make profit. Capital, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, you can take lakhs and lakhs. That I can arrange. The bank, if I say to the bank they will have to give you, or I shall personally give you. There is no question of capital scarcity. So only thing is how will you utilize this capital and how you will make profit. You make that program. So far capital is concerned, there is no concern. You'll get any amount of capital. And you can develop the business. Now we have got credit in the bank, any bank will give you if I say yes. There will be no scarcity of capital. Prabhupāda: In Aligarh he has got so many friends. Aligarh we have got many friends. Indian man: Half of my life was spent in Aligarh. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Aligarh is maternal uncle's house. So many relatives. So Aligarh, if the Deities are manufactured there, so there is no (indistinct) Money I shall bring. (indistinct) We shall bring any amount of money provided I am sure that you will make some profit. There is no scarcity. Indian man: Prabhupāda, I was sick last night very much. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Indian man: So I could not come to you. Prabhupāda: Last night you did not come? Indian man: I came to see only to have your darśana but I was in fever so much. Prabhupāda: Oh. So capital you'll get, rest assured. Anyone will give. He will give, or I will give, the bank will give. That is (indistinct). But you must utilize it properly. Indian man: You understand how to utilize? Dhanañjaya: Yes I understand. Prabhupāda: There is no scarcity. Dhanañjaya: Utilize means return. Indian man: Return means to utilize it properly. Prabhupāda: No return also gradually, not at a time. Because if you take five thousand rupees, pay at the rate of five hundred rupees. Indian man: (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: ...is concerned, that is our home, Aligarh. Indian man: Aligarh. Prabhupāda: Money is concerned, you'll get any amount. Now organize and (indistinct). Dhanañjaya: Now, another thing I wanted to ask. Many devotees were asking me if we could make a Deity of Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: That is not very, well... That is not immediate. We shall see later on. You can make. That we shall see later on. Not immediately. Immediately you make this arrangement. *Dhanañjaya: And for design of Gaura*-Nitāi and Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, we should just use the same design or we should make better? Prabhupāda: Make a hand design like that and have your people make like that. Make a nice... Dhanañjaya: Make, yes. I mean, better design. Prabhupāda: Yes, make a better design. And the hand will be like this. Dhanañjaya: Not like this. I like this myself. It's Navadvīpa style. Prabhupāda: This is Navadvīpa style. Dhanañjaya: Yes, I like this much better. Otherwise the arms are too long and thin. *Prabhupāda: In this way make a nice design Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. And Rādhārāṇī should be like this. This is Vṛndāvana style. Not this. This is Lakṣmī style. This. Make these arrangements. I am hopeful of this business. Very good business we'll have. I want to introduce in every family. They'll do it. If they do not worship, let them keep as dolls. That will also give them inspiration. Dhanañjaya: Actually so many Indians in their house they're keeping just like dolls. They are not worshiping regularly. They're keeping on the mantlepiece or on the side. Prabhupāda: In this way be encouraged and in full capacity do business and get others. Dhanañjaya: There was one boy who just came from Italy and he's expert in wood carving. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Dhanañjaya: So we can take artists for wooden siṁhāsanas. Siṁhāsanas he said he can make. He even brought his tools. He has a whole box of tools he brought just for carving and he studied in the south of Spain, religious architecture. Prabhupāda: He can make a small siṁhāsana for the Deities, collapsible. So that if anyone wants, he can dispatch them. (end) *Room Conversation (Bullock Cart SKP)-*-September 12, 1976, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: I have seen, Gandhi wanted to organize a program, village [break] ...in the field, that this program for constructing toilet in the village, they have spent so much. You know that? The first business was toilet. To restrict them to pass stool here and there, they must have. Now in constructing that toilet paraphernalia, (indistinct), they... Therefore it failed, village organization. Not for that purpose. There were many purpose. Because they had no engagement, so why they should remain in the village? There are so many attraction in the city, and they get money. The factory*-wallas, they're inviting, "Come here. You shall get twenty rupees per day." Why shall he remain in the village? So if you can organize in the villages, they are interested in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and getting nice prasādam, then... One must have some attachment. In the city there are so many artificial attachments. So on what ground they'll remain in the village? Mind, always remember this. Unless you have got some attachment, there is no possibility. Gandhi's program was very nice, village organize so that they may not come to the city and help the capitalists. Remain satisfied in the village. But where is that satisfaction? That is the failure. Lokanātha: If they add the holy name to their lives, they will... *Prabhupāda: Yes. If they could understand that. That will be helpful if you chant. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's statement will never be false. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. If they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then gradually the dirty things accumulated within the heart will be cleansed. And if he comes to the understanding, clear idea, that "I want to eat something and my necessities... So if I get my necessities, primary necessities of life, and satisfaction of mind, then why shall I go to city?" That they can have very easily. If they follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, that "Your first necessity is food." So produce food here. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. And you'll find here so much land is lying vacant. Because they have gone to the city for twenty rupees daily to manufacture Goodyear tire. And who will work here? Now I have seen in Delhi, the government is advertising, "Go back to the village." Rascal, you are manufacturing wine and keeping them engaged whole day in the work. So after being tired, he requires some wine. And why he'll go? And no spiritual education, no cleanliness. Simply inviting "Go to the village" they will go? Lokanātha: Just a propaganda. *Prabhupāda: No, they're thinking that so many people are coming to the cities, how we shall provide them? That's a problem. After all government has to supply them rations. Where is so much foodstuff? And if they are not supplied, then there will be resentment. That's a fact. What they are doing in the city, so many scooter (makes motor sound), going here and there. Actually no engagement. The girls are loitering in the street by dressing. It will become more and more problems, city life. So this is the solution, that they must go back to the village. But they are trained up to enjoy the facilities, so*-called facilities, of the city. They are not going to village. But if we can introduce this hari-saṅkīrtana, and if they have little taste, that is success. It's a great program. And that taste will come-ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. If he simply becomes little sober that "I want to eat, I have to sleep, I want some sense enjoyment and defense. So if I can get easily in the village, why shall I go three hundred miles away? Just keep in mind the psychology. So that simple life will be possible if one is bhakta. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. Only by devotion. Not by otherwise. Not by artificial means, by manufacturing toilet. Only bhakti. If they get little attachment for Kṛṣṇa the questions will be solved automatically. And they will be happy. Undoubtedly. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first instruction. Ceto-darpaṇa. Lokanātha: I come from village, and I'm happy now as I have taken to holy name and prasāda. So more, other villagers... Half of these boys are from villages? Prabhupāda: Yes, they are villagers. Lokanātha: They're chanting and they're so happy and they're going back to village. Prabhupāda: Very good life. Very good life. The village life. Provided he has got proper engagement. Otherwise his mind will be disturbed, and he'll seek after wine, after women, after this, after that. Devil's workshop. *Caraṇāravindam: Because there's no sacrifice, because people aren't performing sacrifices now, is it more difficult to live off the land? It is more difficult to grow vegetables in Kali*-yuga where there's no sacrifice? Prabhupāda: What is that sacrifice? Caraṇāravindam: Chanting. Chanting the holy name. Doesn't that make it more difficult to live? The weather's, everything's so disturbed? Prabhupāda: Whether you're not eating? Lokanātha: He says there is no yajña, sacrifice, people are not performing, that is why they are into the trouble. *Prabhupāda: This is yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana*-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. Su-medhasaḥ. Those who have got brain substance, they perform this saṅkīrtana-yajña. Those who have cow dung, they cannot. One who has got brain substance. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ. And alpa-medhasa. The two words. Akṣayānanda: Viśvambhara is having fever but he'll go to Koshi now. Viśvambhara is having fever but... Prabhupāda: Who will go? Akṣayānanda: Viśvambhara will go when he's better, maybe tomorrow. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. There is another word. Tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasaḥ. Tad bhavati... Alpa-medha and su-medhasa. These two words we get from the śāstra. Those who are alpa-medhasa, they want to bring... Just like in name, Gītā-yajñas. There is no yajña. They are manufacturing some ideas. Because other yajñas are not possible in this age. First of all, there is no yajñika-brāhmaṇa, there is no ingredients. So therefore this is the yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ. This is quotation from Bhāgavata. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti he su-medhasaḥ. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni... [Cc. Antya 20.12]. this yajña. Simply chant, and engage others in chanting. That is yajña. First class yajña, recommended. Caraṇāravindam: Prabhupāda? When we pass through the village how will we keep them engaged... Prabhupāda: That he'll guide you. You do not know. He is from village, he knows. Village or no village, wherever you chant, people will come. That is a fact. Either you chant in Calcutta Maidan or in the village they will be... India is still alive in that sense. We have seen it. We have experience. Wherever we have chanted, people have come. Lokanātha: When you went to some place in Gujarat, Sanand? It was reported that thousands of people will come. It was a small village... Prabhupāda: Yes. Village, if you go out they will come like anything. Even in the city we have got experience. In Calcutta we did Maidan. Thirty thousand they were coming. They could not understand English, still they are coming, simply by kīrtana. This Haṁsadūta was performing kīrtana, and all the Bengali ladies coming from outside Calcutta by train, and they're praying, "take this." (indistinct) Still India is alive. And I was speaking in English mostly. Also in Delhi. Still ladies are sitting. (laughs) What they'll understand English? But that kīrtana was so attractive, they sat down only for kīrtana. Lokanātha: Nobody outside ISKCON does this kīrtana. Prabhupāda: What do they know? What they'll do? All rascals, fools. Lokanātha: Even some religious organizations are there but nobody... Prabhupāda: They do not know what is religion. They do not know what is religion. They have no faith in God. This is their position. All bogus. I say it, challenging, do they know what is God? Ki bolo, Mr. Gupta, do they know? People in general, do they know what is God? Gupta: They don't know what is God. But they only respect God out of fear. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is also good. Ārto arthārthī. Ārtaḥ. That is good. But still they do not know what is God. They have simply heard the name of God, there is God. That is good also. Than the rascals who deny the existence of God. So in comparison to them, they are very good. At least they accept there is something as God. God is good, God is kind, God is... But what is God they have no idea. That's a fact. That they do not know. Either the nonbelievers or believers. Both of them. They have no idea of God. This is the first time perhaps, in the world we are introducing, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." Lokanātha: You have said many times you could give complete address of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes we give address. Lokanātha: And also we know the telephone number. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lokanātha: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: This is the first time. Otherwise, they do not know what is God. Now you are coming from Christian community. Did you have any idea of God? Dhanañjaya: Just God is great. *Prabhupāda: That's all... But what is that great? What is God you do not know. We know. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. There is no more greater principle than Me. That is great. How you are great? Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. "I am the origin of all the demigods." Next how you are great? Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. This is their ignorance. They have simply heard God is great, but how He is great, that they do not know. Here is the... God is personally speaking, "Yes, I am great in this way." Ahaṁ sarvasya. Vedānta says janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. That is greatness. The original source of everything. So we are presenting God, "Here is God." Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ [SB 1.3.28]. There are other incarnations, but kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. That's a fact. So try to present the real fact. It will be effective. If there is real reality, just like first class pure ghee... If one tastes, he'll hanker after. Without any advertisement, by the taste of the ghee, it will go on. Is it not? If you put little pure ghee on the rice, it will be so tasteful, that he'll want it again. But give the pure thing. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Try to give Him to the people. And how to take it? Hare Kṛṣṇa. He hasn't got to pay anything. God has given him the tongue. Induce him, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And that is the beginning. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau [Brs. 1.2.234]. It begins from the jihvā. So people will be surprised, "How God consciousness begins with jihvā?" That they do not know. Śāstra says sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. Jihvā, the tongue is the beginning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. God consciousness. People are surprised, they think the mind, speculative mind is the beginning. No. Śāstra says tongue is the beginning. Muni, ṛṣi, muni. Muni means speculator. So they think speculative mind is the beginning of God consciousness. But śāstra says no, not the mind. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. If one is speculator, he will be on the material field. Asata. Asato mā sad gamaya. "Don't remain in the asat. Come to the reality." That reality begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. Jihvā ādi, ādau. So give them chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and give them chance to taste prasāda. They'll be... That's all. Jihvādau. Utilize the tongue, primarily. And gradually everything will be... Lokanātha: No what? Prabhupāda: Ostādi, ostādi. Lokanātha: Flowery language. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) That is God is great. Nobody can defeat Him. Nobody can go beyond Him. Asama-ūrdhva. Nobody is equal to Him. Asama, ūrdhva. Nobody is greater than Him, nobody is equal to Him. That is God. And after there are so many Gods, everyone God. So what kind of God? If God has a competitor, then what is the God? God has no competitor. Asama-ūrdhva. Everyone is down. Asama. Not equal, not ūrdhva. Then down. Two things, three things are there. Equal, level, upper and lower. So there is no upper and there is no equal. Then all lower. Then He's the supreme controller. Īśvara parama. In the lower level there may be īśvara. But they are not parama. Subordinate. Lokanātha: Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya [Cc. Ādi 5.142]. Prabhupāda: Āra saba bhṛtya. God is one and all others, they are subjects. Nityo nityānām. Why these two words are used, nityānām. Everyone is nitya, but He's the supreme nitya. Cetanaś cetanānām. He's not dead body, dead matter. Cetana. Nityam, just as the Himalaya parvata is standing forever. No. Cetana. Living. So how He can be imperson? Himalaya parvata may be very big, the sky may be big, but it is not cetana. Therefore this word is used. Cetana, living. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). What is the difference? Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That one nitya is providing, maintaining all other nityas. That is God. God is great. That is the meaning. So anyway, make your effort sincerely. The basic principle is this. Induce them to chant and take prasāda. You'll be successful. Not very much ostādi. (Hindi) Lokanātha: So we'll write to you, (indistinct) books. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Go to village to village. It is very noble attempt. And if you sincerely preach Kṛṣṇa will... buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te. There is no doubt. Indian man: (Sanskrit verse) Lokanātha: He joined us four days back. He's from Maharastra. I'm taking him with me. Prabhupāda: He understands the philosophy. Wherefrom it is quoted? Indian boy: (Hindi) Lokanātha: Saint Tukārāma. Prabhupāda: Oh, Saint Tukārāma. He's a great saint. He is Māyāvādī or Vaiṣṇava? Lokanātha: Tukārāma is Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Oh! Tukārāma is Vaiṣṇava. Lokanātha: But this is different. Tukārāma met Caitanya Mahāprabhu at Mylapur(?). Prabhupāda: Yes. Tukārāma is a disciple of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then it is in order. What is the... Indian man: (Recites Sanskrit) Lokanātha: It's a very nice question. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) "By My order." That's all. That I was explaining to Mr. Gupta. If I say this bag of bead, you take it and give it to him, then where is my difficulty? There is no difficulty. This is called beadbag. You take it and give him. And you become guru. Call a spade a spade. And if you become ostāda, Kurukṣetra means this body and this means this, and this means that," then you spoil. You spoil yourself. (Hindi) (end) *Letter to Sai Baba-*-September 13, 1976, Våndävana Pradyumna: This says, "God is an Indian." Putaparti. "God is an Indian. His contemporary avatāra..." Prabhupāda: Putaparti? What is that? Pradyumna: Putaparti is in Andhra. "His contemporary avatāra rests in the trinity of Sirti Baba, Sai Baba, and Prem Baba to come. So Satya Sai Baba, the second of the triple incarnation, asserted in the course of a marathon interview to add, 'In my present avatāra, I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity.' " Prabhupāda: So, to whom we shall address this letter? Pradyumna: Well, it depends where we want to send it for publishing. To this or to another magazine. Prabhupāda: He says that "I'm avatāra." So therefore it should be addressed to him. He says. So address to Satya Sai Baba. Where is he, at Bombay? Pradyumna: No, he stays at this Putaparti or in Bangalore. Prabhupāda: Putaparti... Pradyumna: That is a small village. Prabhupāda: Oh. Post office, Putaparti. And it is in, where Bangalore? Pradyumna: That is in Andhra. *Prabhupāda: Andhra. Hmm. Dear Sai Baba, just recently in the Blitz paper, published on-give the date*-we were surprised to find one article "God is an Indian." And you have claimed to become an incarnation of God to save the human society. What is the ground of your claiming as incarnation? And what you have done to save the human society? Will you explain for enlightenment of us. Or many of us. We have got the list of incarnations recorded in the Vedic scriptures and their respective activities also. So where is that record in the Vedic scripture about your appearing as incarnation? Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is fully described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnationship or give... What it should be? Pradyumna: Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation... Prabhupāda: There may be so many, but I mean to say Lord Kṛṣṇa is incarnation, so avatāratva. So what is the English? Avatāratva? Pradyumna: The incarnationness or quality of being an incarnation, but that is not... The quality of being an incarnation is not... The most literal is incarnationness. *Prabhupāda: Therefore say that. Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnationness is fully described in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Similarly, Lord Rāmacandra's incarnationness or Lord Buddha's incarnationness, Lord Caitanya's incarnationness, we have got full information in the Vedic literatures. Pradyumna: Lord Rāma's incarnationness, Lord Buddha's incarnationness... Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya. Pradyumna: Oh. Prabhupāda: Where is your incarnation is described? Will you kindly give the reference. Anyone can say like you, that one is incarnation, as it has become a fashion nowadays. But is that claim only is the proof of one's becoming incarnation? Some such unauthorized claim of becoming an incarnation is certainly ridiculous. Such... Pradyumna: ...unauthorized claim of one's becoming an incarnation... Prabhupāda: Is certainly ridiculous. Then you have claimed to take form. What is he has written? Pradyumna: "Then you have claimed to take..." Prabhupāda: No, no. What he has written. Pradyumna: "In my present avatāra I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity." Prabhupāda: So you have claimed to... What is that? Again read it. Pradyumna: "I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity." *Prabhupāda: So you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad*-gītā that God is never formless. Find out this verse, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Purport. *Pradyumna: "Those who are worshipers of demigods have been described as less intelligent persons, and here the impersonalists are similarly described. Lord Kṛṣṇa in His personal form is here speaking before Arjuna, and still, due to ignorance, impersonalists argue that the Supreme Lord ultimately has no form. Yāmunācārya, a great devotee of the Lord in the disciplic succession from Rāmānujācārya, has written two very appropriate verses in this connection. He says, 'My dear Lord, devotees like Vyāsadeva and Nārada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing Vedānta and the Upaniṣads and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead.' In the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is stated that the Personality of Godhead cannot be understood simply by study of the Vedānta literature. Only by the mercy of the Supreme Lord can the Personality of the Supreme be known. Therefore in this verse it is clearly stated that not only the worshipers of the demigods are less intelligent, but those nondevotees who are engaged in Vedānta and speculation on Vedic literature..." Prabhupāda: You can give up to that Yāmunācārya's quotation. What you have written. Pradyumna: So far? Everything? Or just... Only, is one's word only... Prabhupāda: What you have written. Pradyumna: "Dear Sai Baba, just recently..." Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Last what you have written. *Pradyumna: "Similarly, Lord Rāma's incarnation, Lord Buddha's incarnation, Lord Caitanya's incarnationness, we have got full information from the Vedic scriptures. Where is your incarnation described? Will you kindly give the reference. Anyone can say like you, that one is an incarnation, as it has become a fashion nowadays. But is that claim only the proof of one's becoming an incarnation? Such unauthorized claim of one's becoming an incarnation is certainly ridiculous. Then you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad*-gītā that God is never formless." *Prabhupāda: (dictating:) Only the rascals and less intelligent class of men think that God is formless and when He incarnates, He takes a particular form. In this connection, a verse from Yāmunācārya may be quoted as follows. You have quoted the Bhagavad*-gītā? That quote? Pradyumna: Well, it doesn't mention the Sanskrit here of that Yāmunācārya verse. *Prabhupāda: No, no. "In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said"*-what you have written? Pradyumna: Oh. We can put the Sanskrit, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannam. Prabhupāda: No, what you have written here? *Pradyumna: "Such unauthorized claim of one's becoming... Then you have claimed to take a form of the formless God, but we see in the Bhagavad*-gītā..." Prabhupāda: That you have to quote. *Pradyumna: Yes. So, Bhagavad*-gītā 7.24, Sanskrit and translation. "But we see in the Bhagavad-gītā..." Prabhupāda: Read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: So what is Yāmunacārya's quotation? Pradyumna: "My dear Lord, devotees like Vyāsadeva and Nārada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Prabhupāda: You have to quote that verse and the meaning. Pradyumna: But the Sanskrit wasn't give here? Prabhupāda: The Sanskrit is there. Pradyumna: No, but this verse from Yāmunācārya. *Prabhupāda: Oh. You'll find the Sanskrit in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Pradyumna: Oh. Which place? *Prabhupāda: In the Ādi*-līlā. Tam, it begins with tam. You can find out. Call, call him. (bell rings) Read. The Sanskrit verse is not... Pradyumna: No, it's not quoted here. Prabhupāda: Tam paribhāvita, like that. There is a verse. Pradyumna: Oh. I will find it. *Prabhupāda: Ādi*-līlā. Hari-śauri: Which volume? *Prabhupāda: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Hari-śauri: First volume? Prabhupāda: I think. There is, what is called, index? *Pradyumna: Yes, for Ādi*-līlā? Where's the verse index. Hari-śauri: Which verse is it. If you give me the verse I can... *Pradyumna: It begins tam paribhāvita. T*-a-m. T-a-m. Tam paribhāvita. Prabhupāda: You can bring here. Then? Pradyumna: So this quote goes on. "But those who in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing the Vedānta and the *Upaniṣads* and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead." Prabhupāda: So in this connection, the statement of *Bhāgavatam*, is especially important. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. Brahman is impersonal, Paramātmā is localized, and Bhagavān is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead... Pradyumna: Brahman is the impersonal. *Prabhupāda: Brahman is impersonal. Not "the." Paramātmā is localized, and Bhagavān is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa after hearing Bhagavad*-gītā, he addressed Kṛṣṇa as follows. Quote this, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma [Bg. 10.12]. Find out. No. Find out in the book. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Puruṣaṁ śāśvatam... Pradyumna: Puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam. Prabhupāda: Divyam. So here Arjuna addresses Lord Kṛṣṇa as śāśvataṁ puruṣam, eternally the Personality of Godhead. It is never admitted that Supreme Lord is originally imperson. Puruṣam. I have described puruṣam? Yes. What you have written? *Pradyumna: "When Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa after hearing Bhagavad*-gītā, he addressed Kṛṣṇa as follows, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma [Bg. 10.12], etc. Here Kṛṣṇa addresses... Here Arjuna addresses Kṛṣṇa as śāśvataṁ puruṣam or the eternal Personality of Godhead. It is never admitted that the Supreme Lord is originally impersonal." Prabhupāda: Then, you read the other verses. Param... Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Then? Pradyumna: Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve devarṣir nāradas tathā. Prabhupāda: You have to quote this. Then? Read. Pradyumna: Translation? Prabhupāda: No, no. That you have to give a quotation and, then? What is next verse. *Pradyumna: In Bhagavad*-gītā after this? Prabhupāda: Āhus tvām, then next, what is next verse. Pradyumna: Ah, Prabhupāda: That's all right. Next. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: That's all right. Next. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: The point is that "Your personality cannot be understood without Your mercy." There is a verse. Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve. Find out that verse. Pradyumna: Aham? Prabhupāda: Āhus. Pradyumna: Oh, āhus. Prabhupāda: Āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ. You read just now. Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: Next verse. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Vyaktyam? Pradyumna: Vyaktim. Na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ. "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality." Prabhupāda: Yes, that's... Pradyumna: Oh, it says, *Hari-śauri: There's no verse index in any of the Ādi*-līlā. Prabhupāda: There is, but we are missing. Pradyumna: I have the Bengali. Prabhupāda: The all ācāryas say that Your personality, although there are so many evidences in śāstra and authorized persons, still, the rascals cannot understand. So here is another verse, āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve. Pradyumna: So do you want to quote this verse? Prabhupāda: Hm. Must quote. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: (dictating:) So one has to accept the statement of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, how He is originally the puruṣa or person. Impersonal Brahman is expansion of the rays of His personal body, exactly like the sunshine is expansion of the rays of the sun*-god Vivasvān. Vivasvān is a person in the sunglobe and Kṛṣṇa is also a person who spoke the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā long, long years before He spoke the same to Arjuna. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. Therefore the conclusion is that originally God is always a person. Impersonal Brahman is emanation from the personal God. In other words, God, personal God is not from impersonal Brahman, but impersonal Brahman is from the personal God. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā as follows. Pradyumna: Impersonal Brahman is an emanation of the personal God. It is not, it is not that the personal God is an emanation of...from... or it is that impersonal Brahman is an emanation. It is not that the personal God is an emanation of impersonal Brahman. Prabhupāda: Impersonal Brahman is resting on the personal God, exactly that illumination of light is resting on the bulb. Not that the bulb is resting on the illuminated light. Pradyumna: Exactly like illumination of light is resting... *Prabhupāda: On the bulb, electric bulb. Not the bulb is resting on the illumination. Besides that, we learn from Bhagavad*-gītā, Second Chapter... Find out that verse. "It is not that we were..." Pradyumna: Na tv evāham? Prabhupāda: Ah. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa has personally said to Arjuna that in the past he was person. Pradyumna: So "Kṛṣṇa, in person"? Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. Kṛṣṇa, as a person, says to Arjuna that both of them existed in the past as person, and they'll continue to remain person in the future. Pradyumna: Both of them existed in the past as person and both of them shall continue to... Prabhupāda: Remain as person in the future. So without knowing all this knowledge, a mūḍha accepts the incarnation of God as coming from imperson. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. Under this heading you have proved yourself to become a mūḍha. And how a mūḍha or an ass can become the incarnation of God? Then? Read that Blitz paper, one after another. *Pradyumna: Then, this is the end of his quote and then the editor, the writer is speaking. "This may appear an extraordinarily controversial claim to those unfamiliar with the spiritual depths of Hindu religio*-philosophy. The latter totally accepts the avatāra concept which broadly means the descent of the divine principle into human affairs. In the Bhagavad-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa intervenes to say..." Prabhupāda: That is the editor's. *Pradyumna: Yes, this is the editor's. "In the Bhagavad*-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa intervenes to save humanity from evil forces. The Purāṇas personify earth, the mother, as groaning under a similar burden to supplicate God for relief." Then heading, "Solution and cure to world's ills. To Baba's devotees, the avatāra has similarly come to provide both the solution and the cure to a world living in terror of a nuclear holocaust. The false dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, puruṣa and deva, simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures, which prescribe..." Prabhupāda: What is that? Pradyumna: "The dichotomies." Prabhupāda: Dichot...? What is that? Pradyumna: Dichotomy means some kind of distinction, to make a distinction. He said the dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, puruṣa and deva. Differences or analysis of differences. "Simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures..." Prabhupāda: Why not? Pradyumna: "Which prescribe the assimilation of God in man and man in God as the basis of religion." Prabhupāda: This is another rascaldom. God is always distinct from man. Pradyumna: Sai Baba also quotes later, He is also directly saying, also later. Prabhupāda: What he says? Pradyumna: Now here's the quote. "Baba personifies this philosophy. As he told me, 'God is man and man is God. All of us have something of God, the divine spark, within us. All men are divine, like myself, with the spirit embodied in human flesh and bone. The only difference is that they are unaware of this Godhood.' " I'll get it for you. Prabhupāda: So? Pradyumna: Here he says, "The mission of the present avatāra is to make everybody realize that since the same God or divinity resides in everyone, people should respect, love, and..." Prabhupāda: No, no. If he resides in everyone, then why he has special claim? Pradyumna: Yes, well he says he has remembered. Prabhupāda: He remembers? How God can forget? Pradyumna: That he says. That he says here. He says that, "Take paddy or rice by way of an illustration. Every grain of rice is enclosed in a husk. You have to remove the husk to get the grain of rice. Now husk and rice both come from the same seed. Rice is the equivalent of God in man." Prabhupāda: But still husk is not rice. You cannot say husk is rice. Pradyumna: He says the husk... He says "Rice is the equivalent of God in man while the husk can be compared to desire which reduces God to man." Prabhupāda: No, no. Pradyumna: Therefore my desire is life plus desire equals man. Life minus desire equals God." *Prabhupāda: (dictating:) You are desiring to become God. There cannot be no desire. But you're unceremoniously desiring to become God. Although there is no proof in the śāstras. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is accepted that the living entities are sparks of..., part and parcel of God, Kṛṣṇa. *Pradyumna: "In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is accepted that the living entities..." Prabhupāda: Are part and parcel of God. But part is never equal to the whole. [break] Pradyumna: "So you can claim as a spark of God, as every living entity can claim but you cannot claim as the..." Prabhupāda: The Supreme Person with full power. That is misleading. You can show a little magic, as other magicians also can show. Pradyumna: "You can show a little magic as other magicians can also show." Prabhupāda: But you cannot show the full magic, as Kṛṣṇa displayed or Lord Rāmacandra displayed. Therefore your claim as a full power is completely false and blasphemous. Pradyumna: "Therefore your claim for full power is completely false..." Prabhupāda: And blasphemous. In this way find out. Pradyumna: Completely Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Completely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Now someone may bring up the one point, they say "Well, if an avatāra comes if he must show all kinds of great opulences and powers, then he says sometimes the incarnation shows this, but sometimes, like when Lord Caitanya appeared He didn't show viśvarūpa or..." *Prabhupāda: But He never claimed that "I am avatāra." But we understand from the śāstric evidence. He never claimed. Rather when He was addressed as Kṛṣṇa He blocked His ears, "You don't say like that." He never claimed. He fully displayed Himself as a devotee. Not Bhagavān. Therefore Gaurāṅgavāda is illegal. Gaurāṅga*-nāgarī. That is illegal. Moha-vāda or something like that. *Pradyumna: Gaurāṅga*-nāgarī, mentioning Lord Caitanya in the role of Kṛṣṇa dancing with the... Prabhupāda: In this way, find out the faulty statement and give him proof. He can claim... Hm. Pradyumna: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Room Conversation-*-September 16, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: All the Vaiṣṇavas, they are expert. Just like Rūpa, Sanātana, expert manager. Even in worldly affairs. Not that "I am so much big devotee that I cannot manage worldly affairs." Expert, must be expert. Dakṣa. (pause) So she can give me the fruits now. So... [break] ...intelligent policy to kill India's spiritual status. Haṁsadūta: To kill India's spiritual status? Prabhupāda: That was their policy. Because there was one Britisher politician, Lord McCauley. His report was, he studied the whole Indian situation. They were very expert politicians. He reported that "If you keep Indians as Indians, you'll never be able to rule over them. They must be trained up in such a way that they would think their own culture as useless; this Western culture is very good. That impression must be there. Otherwise, you cannot rule over them." So the education and everything was going on very silently on this principle. Haṁsadūta: Imperceptibly they introduced this. Prabhupāda: Hm. That is their administration. And that was going on for the last two hundred years. So India lost. [break] ...educated persons they lost. And the mass of people, they were not educated. They have not lost, but they don't find any good example by the leaders. Haṁsadūta: No encouragement. Prabhupāda: No encouragement. They are simply staying somehow or other in their original culture, but there is no encouragement by the leaders. But the leaders have lost. This is the position. Just like Jawaharlal Nehru, he was a complete rascal about Indian culture. He did not think that Indian culture has any value. Therefore he wrote the book, "Discovery of India." You know that? He has... It is little popular. "Discovery of India." So long India was not discovered by opiate or something like, as the Russians say. Now it is now discovered. And that its leaders have to become Anglicized or Europeanized. Industry, the Western way of living, eating, and everything. Pollution. Everything. Harikeśa: Abortion. *Prabhupāda: Yes, also. Otherwise, we have seen in our childhood how happy people were. They were. Simple. If one has five rupees income per month he's happy. I've seen it. Husband, wife, a small family. If he has got five rupees income, they can maintain very nicely, happily. Why not? Suppose he has got five rupees income. The rice was selling at four rupees. So two person, say one*-fourth kg., one-fourth share each. A gentleman cannot eat more than that. So means half a share. And the whole month, fifteen share. It is about one rupee eight annas. And further, one rupees eight annas add for vegetables and other things. With three rupees they can maintain, the husband and wife. And two rupees still there. He can spend for other purposes. I have seen it. Fresh vegetables, rice, this and... Just like with banana leaf. The pots were of earthen, the wife is cooking and she's utilizing dry foliage as fuel, a little temperature, everything is cooked. The husband takes one banana leaf and spreads, and the wife gives sufficient rice, vegetables. And things were so cheap. I have seen it. And fresh. Haṁsadūta: Yes, everything, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Anything fresh. Any cultivator, he has got little land surrounding his house and he's growing vegetables like squash, chilis, and some spinage, spinach? Haṁsadūta: Spinach, śāka. Prabhupāda: Yes. And... Haṁsadūta: Eggplant. Prabhupāda: Eggplant. And this banana. So whatever he's grown he takes in a basket, goes to the market, immediately sold. And they're all fresh. Collected in the morning, and it is sold by eight o'clock. All fresh vegetables. There was no export, there was no facility of transport. These rascals introduced transport. Big scale transport, this railway. There was no railway. So transport means this villager, instead of selling locally or one mile away, he will dispatch in Calcutta. The Calcutta people, they are sitting on table and smoking and printing paper money and exploit. Haṁsadūta: We had this experience when we were traveling with our bus from Calcutta to Vṛndāvana. We would want to buy watermelon from people who were growing right on the bank of the river, and he would have huge piles. And he would say, "No, I'm not selling. I'm transporting these to Delhi, where one cannot get watermelon." He's getting five times the price he would get in his local... Prabhupāda: And from Vṛndāvana, we have seen, they are exporting that drumbeats? Vṛndāvana? Hari-śauri: Drumsticks. Prabhupāda: Huh? Drumstick. So the transport is a dangerous thing. Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is a scheme. Prabhupāda: A local man cannot get. He's starving. And the man in big cities, he's doing nothing, he simply has got paper to sign and paper money he's attracting. All production. And they are starving. This is modern civilization. Everything, milk, vegetables, fish, everything, this chānā. Otherwise, within the village you can get everything. Village economy. Everything very cheap. And as soon as they got these transport facilities, the local men, they could not eat, and these lazy rascals, they are getting everything. Big, big cities like Calcutta, Bombay, they (have) millions of population. They are not producing anything. The producer is different man. They are simply artificially cheating them by paper money and they take. This is modern civilization. Haṁsadūta: And on the basis of this transporting of food, other industries grow. Like for instance packing. Sometimes the package costs more than the item which is being packaged. Prabhupāda: Especially in your country. Packing is more important than the... They sent me some presentation in a huge package. Haṁsadūta: Consequently those persons who are farmers, they become discouraged. Prabhupāda: Now it has become a problem how to throw these packings. Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is another problem. Hari-śauri: Yes. Plastic they can't dispose of, glass. Prabhupāda: Simply creating problems. Lavana haila ithe gatila jagya.(?) This modern civilization, they could not make any profit. They have created some problems, that's all. Very dangerous civilization. Haṁsadūta: There was one writer, he wrote a book about the cities, these big modern cities. And he said that in the future the price of labor will become so enormous that to break down the old buildings in these cities which have been built to become obsolete, will be impossible. And the whole place will become swamp land by that. (end) *Room Conversation-*-September 17, 1976, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: ...one horse within the mouth-that is God. One hill. One Pūtanā, sucking the breast, her life goes. That is God. Why shall I take some cheap God? We are not so foolish. Here is the... So many great saintly persons hearing about God. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. They are fools, hearing about Kṛṣṇa? Such great, great personalities? And Śukadeva Gosvāmī is speaking. Are they fools? All of them fools? One, two may be fool. They were wholesale fool? All the great personalities, they're all fools? Asita, Devala, Vyāsa, Nārada*-all big personalities. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu-they're all fools? I may be fool. They are not fools. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Why shall I accept a rascal God? Varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ [SB 2.1.1]. "Oh, you want to hear about Kṛṣṇa?" Varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ. Śukadeva was praising: "Oh, glorious, you have taken... Yes." Here is God. Breathing, and innumerable universes are coming. Here is God. Sleeping and breathing is not unnatural. He is also. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ-like us. But like not us. He can breathe and... That is the difference. Breathing is common. I breathe, He breathes. That's all right. But His breathing, my breathing is not the same breathing. He eats, I eat. That's all right. But when He eats, mother Yaśodā sees all the universes are within Him. They cannot understand this. That we are equal, that's all right, but there is difference. So far, I am a living being, He's also a living being, but He's supreme living being. How? Because I breathe, some dust comes and goes out, and when He breathes some universes come out. This is the difference. So because He is breathing and I am breathing, therefore equal. No. Paśyaty acakṣuḥ. He sees, but not like us. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. He's seeing every particular thing, anywhere. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu. I can see within my limit, or I can feel pains and pleasure within my... But He knows everything, everywhere. Sarva-kṣetreṣu. And because I cannot become like Him, therefore Māyāvādīs say kalpana, "This is imagination." He wants to make God like himself, and he wants to become like God. Therefore all description about God he thinks imagination, kalpana. Kalpana. Dr. Frog. Huh? More than this water, the...? How it is possible? Atlantic Ocean, very very big. What is that big? Maybe four feet, five, yes. Otherwise kalpana. It it is not within his "feet" estimation, then he's kalpana, imagination. This is their knowledge. (indistinct) I can think of three feet, four feet, five feet, ten feet, hundred feet-like that. And when I'm informed, "No, no, it is unlimited feet." Ah, this is kalpana. This is going on. So what other news? I have to send one letter to the governor. [break] Sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ. Yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan vipra mahad-guṇas tathā. Where this class of literature is now. Yathā sūtyām, in the maternity home or maternity room, Sūtyām. Abhijāta-kovidāḥ. The astrologers who can estimate the newly born child's destiny. Whatever they predicted, according to them, yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan. They said that "This child will be like this"-exactly he became. Parīkṣid dvija-varya-śikṣayā, and being trained up by first-class brāhmaṇas, and the child came perfectly the king. Where is that king? Hari-śauri: There're no kings. *Prabhupāda: Where is that President? They're all drunkards, woman*-hunters, meat-eaters. Exactly according to prediction, he became a young man and he was entrusted the kingdom, "Now you rule." (chants verse) Hari-śauri: To learn how to sing them nicely. To learn how to sing them? *Prabhupāda: Yes. I can give them the tune. (chants first line of another verse) [break] ...ghnantaṁ go*-mithunaṁ padā. This is Kali-yuga's king. Nṛpa-liṅga. Dressed like king. Nṛpa-liṅga-dharam, but śūdra. Nṛpa-liṅga-dharaṁ śūdraṁ ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā. Very expert in cow-killing. Hari-śauri: That's a very accurate prediction. *Prabhupāda: Third*-class, fourth-class men, dressed like President and king. Business: plunder money from the citizens and kill cow. 1965, 17 September, I landed at Boston. Hari-śauri: You've done a lot of things since then. Devotee: Changed the world. Prabhupāda: Much water has gone down. (end) *Room Conversation-*-September 26, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: I was living with servant and two sons. So I helped to start... [break] ...took from my friends, I collected some money and... So other important members said, "Why Abhaya Bābu is living separately? He should be the president of the Bombay." I never said, but they said. I was living separately. Then Prabhupāda requested, I mean to say, pleaded in my behalf so many things. He said three words, "It is better that he is living outside your company. He will do, when time will come, he'll do himself everything. You haven't got to recommend him." These very words. [break] ...Kṛṣṇa require any president or any GBC. He's giving chance to everyone, that's all. Otherwise thousands of presidents and thousands of GBC may come and go, His work will go on. Kṛṣṇa is complete Himself. He doesn't require anyone's help. That is Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...sei hetu pracāra. One who has got life, he can preach. One is dead, what he can do? He used to say. Haṁsadūta: And I'm convinced Prabhupāda, that in this temple, right here, you can make every week at least two, three life members, and you can sell thousands of rupees worth of books. Yesterday I started one man, this boy Ikṣvāku from Germany. I said, "Just go around and greet people and show them around and sell them books." And the first few hours he sold seventy rupees worth of books. And if I have a few people who just walk around and they walk right up to the guests and say, "How do you do? My name is so and so. I come from New York. What is your name? Where do you come from?" Prabhupāda: Last night all visitors came, all respectable gentlemen. Haṁsadūta: Last night four people came, they were all big businessmen. One man had been working in a big business in Germany. He spoke German perfectly well. He was an Indian man. He lives in Agra. And so many people. Because Vṛndāvana is the heart of India, every Indian comes once in his lifetime to Vṛndāvana... Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Haṁsadūta: ...if not more times. And everyone will come to our temple. Prabhupāda: Due to Vṛndāvana, our temple is advertised all over India. Everyone says. Haṁsadūta: We haven't even got to go out. We have simply to receive people nicely. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...from Vṛndāvana. I was residing here after retirement. That Rādhā*-Dāmodara, they are being paid monthly? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: You got the receipt? Akṣayānanda: No, I don't have it personally. Prabhupāda: Then who keeps it? Akṣayānanda: I don't know. I have to check. Prabhupāda: You do not know? Who is paying? Akṣayānanda: I'll check with Viśvambhara. I don't know, to be quite honest. Prabhupāda: Huh? Akṣayānanda: To be perfectly honest, I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not know? How is that? Akṣayānanda: Because I've been away so much, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All right. Still, you should know what is this and what is... Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know. [break] Prabhupāda: ...he was going to cleanse these rooms, so whether this is going on or not, you do not know. Then who knows it? Akṣayānanda: Viśvambhara would know because he took full charge in my absence for all these things. *Haṁsadūta: You want me to take care of it? Your rooms at Rādhā*-Dāmodara? You want me to take care that they're cleaned and kept? Prabhupāda: That was being done. Akṣayānanda: Yes, I had it being done once a week. Prabhupāda: So nobody knows what is being done or... [break] So one was to control horses. So he became very much anxious, "What kind of whip I shall have to keep?" Haṁsadūta: First he has to get a horse. Prabhupāda: "Then, first of all, rascal, where is your horse?" (laughs) He became very much anxious, "What kind of whip?" Haṁsadūta: O.K. I'll get the horses. Prabhupāda: And anyone who can purchase a horse, he can very easily purchase any whip. Not that we shall be very much anxious for the whip first. First of all, let us have a horse. The difficulty is that no horses coming. That is the difficulty. Attract horse, and you'll find so many. Haṁsadūta: O.K. (end) *Room Conversationwith U.N. Doctor-*-September 29, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Na taj janeṣu abhijñeṣu. Abhijñaḥ janeṣu, no attachment. Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Nārada Muni, all the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, they have no respect for these. They're creating their howling habits, that's all. How there can be peace? Doctor: Now when the Kṛṣṇa mantras... Prabhupāda: Why do you say Kṛṣṇa panthā? Doctor: No, mantras. I have come to mantra. Klīṁ kṛṣṇāya govindāya gopījanavallabhāya namaḥ. Is that not a very powerful Kṛṣṇa mantra? Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor: That is better than Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No. Hare Kṛṣṇa is therefore called mahā*-mantra. Doctor: Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare. Prabhupāda: Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. Doctor: This you regard as the, higher than any other... *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Therefore it is called mahā*-mantra. *Doctor: But I was told that the Sudarśana*-cakra words, mahamala parakramāyā maha patanivaya bhakta jane kalpanaya,(?) that is a very powerful mantra. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything in relationship with God is powerful. But the name in this age is the most powerful. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Doctor: And the word om has been praised in the *Upaniṣads*, but... *Prabhupāda: Om, veda, praṇavaḥ sarva*-vedeṣu. Kṛṣṇa says that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu [Bg. 7.8]. Praṇava is oṁkāra. Sarva-vedeṣu, "That praṇava I am." That is sound representation of Kṛṣṇa. Doctor: Then that one word as a mantra, is it not... Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor: ...the highest sort of word? *Prabhupāda: No. If you keep Kṛṣṇa, that "This praṇava is the sound representation of Kṛṣṇa," then it is all right. If you think it is separately powerful than Kṛṣṇa, that is nāma*-aparādha. Doctor: I understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you accept it as Kṛṣṇa says, that "I am praṇava," if you do remember Kṛṣṇa by chanting oṁkāra, then it is all right. Doctor: Otherwise, om is only given to sannyāsīs? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. It is not mentioned there. Anyone chanting Vedic mantra, he has to begin with oṁkāra. Doctor: All mantras begin with om. *Prabhupāda: Yes, oṁkāra. So sarva*-vedeṣu. Praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu. This is beginning. Just like we take Bhāgavata, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Doctor: Prabhupāda: The difficulty is that we consider Kṛṣṇa is different from oṁkāra. Doctor: That is a mistake. Prabhupāda: That is a mistake. Doctor: But then Kṛṣṇa is not different from Brahman. Prabhupāda: If you take this oṁkāra as Kṛṣṇa's sound representation, then it is all right. Doctor: Then it is as good as chanting Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor: But it does not give... Prabhupāda: But because Kṛṣṇa is remembered, if you take oṁkāra as Kṛṣṇa's sound representation then Kṛṣṇa is remembered. Doctor: But Kṛṣṇa is three letters. Om is one. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Doctor: In the last minute when you are dying you can feel it, easily feel it. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has many names. Kṛṣṇa has name Govinda. It is not three letters. It is more than that. Kṛṣṇa has so many thousands names. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta. So therefore Kṛṣṇa advises for the beginners, "Just try to remember Me in this way-raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]*-I am the taste of the water." The water you must be drinking twice, thrice, four times. So when you drink water, the taste satisfies your thirst. So if you simply remember, "This taste is Kṛṣṇa," that is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Doctor: When you eat food, that also, the taste is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, especially of the water. Kṛṣṇa is everything, but specifically he mentions, "The taste of the water I am." So you remember this. Doctor: That's very interesting. So every time you drink water... Prabhupāda: You can remember Kṛṣṇa. What is the wrong and what is the loss there? But you follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Yes, sit down. There is no difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. (microphone moves) Doctor: Why do you tape record? Hari-śauri: Everything Prabhupāda speaks we tape record and then everyone in the world can listen. Doctor: Someone said that the word om is given to sannyāsīs and it... Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa does not say. Doctor: It's not so. Prabhupāda: "Someone," we don't take authority. "Someone." There are so many "someones." We don't care for them. What Kṛṣṇa says we accept. That's all. *Doctor: But this Kaṭha*-Upaniṣad praises om. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Upaniṣad is giving lesson, counter part of this material world. Because... Just like you are stressing on oṁkāra because you do not give much importance to Kṛṣṇa. In the material world, Kṛṣṇa, they think Kṛṣṇa is one of the historical persons. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. So Upaniṣad is teaching us in an indirect way about the importance of Kṛṣṇa. Upa*-niṣat. To bring you nearby. Because you have got so many material conceptions, if we say that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," you may not like it. Therefore... Oṁkāra is Kṛṣṇa. So you are giving lesson on oṁkāra. Although Kṛṣṇa and oṁkāra is not different, but you'll not like Kṛṣṇa. In your present position you'll not like Kṛṣṇa's name. Doctor: Why? Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are stressing... Doctor: No, I have read all this and I am trying to reconcile. Prabhupāda: So that is for the neophytes. Doctor: The reconciliation is there. Om is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is om. Prabhupāda: So if Kṛṣṇa is... If you are convinced, then where is the objection of Hare Kṛṣṇa? Doctor: No, no. Prabhupāda: Why should you bring so many objections? Doctor: Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. *Doctor: Ete cāṁśa*-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Prabhupāda: But because I do not like, therefore *Upaniṣads* give another chance, that "Chant oṁkāra." That is the way. Because unless one is completely purified, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Doctor: Based on *Vedas*. Right. Prabhupāda: Based. Kṛṣṇa says vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. By studying *Vedas*, *Upaniṣads*, if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, that means your study is not complete. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After studying this indirect information of Kṛṣṇa, when one is actually a learned, wise man, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. That is very rarely found. This is fact. So if one is intelligent, that if only the most intelligent person, after many, many births one has to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, why not do it immediately? Why shall I wait for many, many births? That is intelligence. *Doctor: Śrī*-kṛṣṇas tu śaraṇaṁ mama. Prabhupāda: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. That is intelligence. But that intelligence is not possible for ordinary persons. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. One who gets this intelligence, such kind of mahātmā, is very, very rarely found. To take it immediately, ah, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. That is very difficult. Doctor: And the only way to attain is reciting the name. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Do that. Therefore the temple is there. Everyone may come and see Kṛṣṇa and think of Him. What is the difficulty? But he'll not come. He has concluded Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra. God is nirākāra. Doctor: Then Kṛṣṇa will not come. Prabhupāda: Well now, Kṛṣṇa... You... Whatever you think, that is your business, but Kṛṣṇa is there everywhere. Doctor: He is nirākāra and sākāra. Prabhupāda: Nirākāra means He has no material ākāra. That is nirākāra. Ākāra means we have got... Just like I have conception of you. So this ākāra is your material ākāra. It is not your real ākāra. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. The real person is within the body, but we have no connection with the real body. We see this outward... Just like seeing his dress, his... That's all. Doctor: How to find the...? How to get to the ātman, the inner body? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the first instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā, that first of all, try to understand what is the person. So because we have no eyes to see, indirectly dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram... [Bg. 2.13]. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ [Bg. 2.18]. So many things. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. So many indirect way because we cannot directly perceive. Doctor: Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ [Bg. 2.23]. *Prabhupāda: What is called? Definition by negation. Nainaṁ chindanti*-negation. So that you can have some idea. Doctor: Of what it is. Prabhupāda: It is not material. Because matter, chindanti, any matter it can be destroyed. It can be cut into pieces, it can be melted in fire, it can be moistened. So when we cannot understand things, it is given in the definition of negation. Doctor: But then it's much better to worship God in form. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is intelligence. If you accept Kṛṣṇa immediately, man-manā bhava mad..., then your life is successful. Kṛṣṇa says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te [Bg. 18.65], He said. But they are not interested. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is a historical person. Why shall I think of Him? I shall think of oṁkāra." You cannot think of oṁkāra. You can hear. And as soon as you think of oṁkāra it comes from? There is no impersonalism. It again becomes personal. So they want to avoid personality and as well as think of Him*-it becomes a very troublesome job. Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām [Bg. 12.5]. They cannot think of avyakta, impersonal. But they are trying to think of. That is a very troublesome job. Kleśala eva avaśiṣyate.(?) Such attempt means he simply gets the result of his hard endeavor. That's all. He doesn't get any substance. Doctor: So with faith accept the... *Prabhupāda: No faith*-it is fact! Faith is blind. Doctor: Faith is blind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Faith with good knowledge, that is nice. If you have good knowledge of Kṛṣṇa and you have faith, that is very good. But if you... Just like Māyāvādīs, they say, "Imagine Kṛṣṇa as God." They say, "Imagine." Doctor: That is no good. *Prabhupāda: They are no good. Kalpana. They say, kalpana. Sādhakānāṁ gitarthaya(?) brahma*-rūpa-kalpana. Rūpa-kalpana. But Kṛṣṇa's rūpa is not kalpana. It is fact. So kalpana is not faith, it is blind. Let me imagine some form of Kṛṣṇa. And therefore gradually, they come down to the position that any form you imagine as God, that is all right. They have come to this degradation. Doctor: That you can, any form... Prabhupāda: Yes. Any form you imagine that he is God, that will give you success. They say like that. Doctor: I think I have taken too much of time. Prabhupāda: I am going there at six. Doctor: Words of enlightenment. Hari-śauri: Have you got any of Prabhupāda's books? *Doctor: I have got some. I bought all the volumes of translation of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. I have got all of them. But some of them have not arrived from United States, the latest ones. And I have got... Hari-śauri: That's very nice. Prabhupāda: You are staying in New Delhi? Doctor: I stay in the Hague, and come to New Delhi when there are no cases. Prabhupāda: Hague? Doctor: Holland. Prabhupāda: Holland. That is the international court? Doctor: Yes, the court case located, the headquarters. Prabhupāda: I went somewhere. That is also international. In Geneva, I think. Is there any...? Doctor: Geneva is another headquarters of the, of the United Nations. New York, Geneva. But the court is in the Hague. Prabhupāda: So I went to that place in Geneva. Doctor: Geneva has got so many specialized agencies of the United Nations, like the I.L.O. and so on. Prabhupāda: Do you think United Nations is making any tangible progress? Doctor: Sir, it at least brings people together under one umbrella to discuss. If you did not have that... Prabhupāda: But discussion, that I have already explained. Doctor: Sir, maybe, but if you don't discuss, you'll fight. Because if aim we don't meet at all then they will have the struggle. *Prabhupāda: No. If you have no idea how to come to the conclusion, ciraṁ vicinvan. You can forever go on discussing, you'll never come... You do not know what is the aim. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Doctor: Maybe so, but if two people instead of coming to blows come together to talk, it is a step in the right direction. Prabhupāda: No right direction because he does not know what is the aim. Doctor: They both want to have peace so they at least try to... Prabhupāda: Everyone wants that. But if he does not know how to attain peace, then go on discussing forever. That is going on. Doctor: But it is still a step in the right direction... Prabhupāda: I don't think there is any advancement. Doctor: ...otherwise what is the aim? *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, there is, but you don't take. How it can be done? In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated Doctor: But if that realization does not dawn... Till that realization... Prabhupāda: Then you go on barking. That is another thing. Doctor: (laughs) It's better to bark than to bite. Prabhupāda: Then that is your satisfaction. You can do that peacefully. Doctor: One day after barking they will come to a conclusion. *Prabhupāda: No that is... Let it be known, fact, that that will never come. If you do not know what is the aim. That is stated, durāśayā ye bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. This is, means, a bad hope, that by this external exhibition of manipulation of energy, they will come to peace. It is not possible. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ adānta-gobhir... [SB 7.5.31]. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This kind of leading is made by the blind leaders. If the leaders are blind and the followers are blind, what result will be there? Doctor: That is true, sir, but that stage has not come. One day it will come. But till that stage and that realization of... *Prabhupāda: No, stage is there. But if the obstinate persons, they do not take it... Here it is clearly said... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-loka-maheśvaram: [Bg. 5.29] "I am the proprietor of all the lands, all the planets." So how can you say no? There must be someone proprietor. Doctor: But then God Himself has created the ego in man. Prabhupāda: No, no. He has created... Doctor: God is the creator. He's also the creator of the ego of man. Prabhupāda: He has created ego. That is a fact, but you are utilizing the ego in a different way. Doctor: Because the realization is not there. Prabhupāda: He is giving the intelligence but you are not accepting. Doctor: Maybe so. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difficulty. He has come to give you instruction, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. When you forget, there is glānir, discrepancies, in the discharge of your duties, He comes to give you instruction, but you don't accept. Now what, can be done? The teacher is giving you instruction, but you don't accept. Then how you'll be educated? This is going on. Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. They do not accept. They will write comments on Bhagavad*-gītā in their own way. You see? Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Yes. As it is. Don't comment in your own way. You'll not get any profit. Take for example any law, government law. Can I comment in my own way? Doctor: No. *Prabhupāda: Then why you comment on Bhagavad*-gītā? Doctor: The law is meant for obedience. Prabhupāda: That's all. Similarly, if you accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord then whatever He has said... Just like Arjuna says, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava [Bg. 10.14]. "Whatever you are saying Keśava, I accept them in toto." That is acceptance. (end) *Room Conversation-*-September 30, 1976, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: One boy, he was coming to me. In that hundred, about one hundred seventy-first street, all my things were stolen. My tape recorder, typewriter. Fortunately they did not touch my manuscript that I was typing, typing my books. So some money was stolen. Then one boy, he was coming to me, he told me, "Please come to my place." A loft. Bowery Street. I did not know the Bowery Street was not a good quarter. All bums and drunks. When I see there, one Jewish friend, he had electrical shop, he told me, "Swamiji, you have gone to Bowery Street? Oh, it is not your place." I did not know that it is full of drunkards. But they were lying down in front of my door, but they were very respectful. When I'd go, these drunkards comes and they respectfully give me ways. And they would lie down on urine and something like that, on water. Then the boy who took me there... He was Murray. His last title was Murray. And he was taking LSD. So since I went there he did not go to work. Otherwise, he was working and getting daily twenty-five dollars, in some dock he was working. Since I went, he stopped working, and I had to pay 125 dollars for the loft. One lady was the landlord. So I was going on. Some people were coming. That Mukunda began to come, his wife, and another black boy, half-black. Yeargen, Karlapati. I gave him name, Karlapati. He was coming. Then one day that boy Murray, he showed some crazy features. So I thought it is dangerous to live with him. So I approached Mukunda. Mukunda had no place, still I asked him. So I kept my goods at Mukunda's house and went to live with Yeargen. That is another loft. So in this way, with great hardship-sometimes here, sometimes there*-in this way, I got two hundred dollars by selling books, and then I asked Mukunda to find out an apartment. He found this apartment, 26 Second Avenue. One storefront down and one living quarters up. So I found it very convenient. Down I would lecture and hold kīrtana. So he charged 75 dollars per month for the apartment, small apartment. I think in a space like this room or less than that, everything is there. There was kitchen, there was shower, and two rooms. I think less than this. Two-thirds of this room and everything there. So I shifted there. And there I remained up to May 1967, I think. Then I got heart attack. Then I went to Stinson Beach. Then I could not improve my health. No, first of all, I went to San Francisco. There also I could not sleep at night. There was throbbing in the heart. Kīrtanānanda, he was serving me. So many difficulties. Then I came back to India in 1967 July. Here also not very much improvement. Then again I went to Los Angeles. There also one symptom developed. Always some sound in the ear, gongongongongon. It was so disturbing. Almost half-mad. And then Los Angeles. Then I think I went to Seattle. In this way, in the beginning there were so many difficulties. Montreal. I took Canadian citizenship. America I could not get. So one gentleman in the immigration department, he said, "Swamiji, you go to Canada and from there you try. It will be easier." Actually, it acted. The Canadian consulate general was a black man, American black man. So in the consulate I applied for immigration, and he was sympathetic. He saw my Teachings of Lord Caitanya and he became attracted. So he settled up. "This gentleman must be allowed." So he expedited the matter within three months. And then I became immigrant in the U.S.A. Then again I came back in Los Angeles, and then we took that house, La Cienega. Devotee: La Cienega Blvd. Prabhupāda: That man also wanted to kick out after one year. Then we had no place. Then, by Kṛṣṇa's grace, we got this house present. At that time I got fifty thousand dollars. So I advanced them down payment. And it is 225 hundred, thousand. I think they are still paying two thousand. Twelve years. How many years passed? Hari-śauri: That was in '69? Prabhupāda: Yes. '68 I got immigration and '69. It is a long history, checkered history. So preaching is independent. If you have got desire, you can preach in any circumstances and Kṛṣṇa will help you. I have practically experienced. I went to your country without any help, without any money. Alone. And gradually things developed. (end side one) ...all foreigners. I did not approach any Indian. I did not approach anyone, but Kṛṣṇa sent friends, gradually developed. Akṣayānanda: There's a man from Gujarat that wants to see you, Prabhupāda. He saw our center in Chicago. Prabhupāda: Oh. Get this light. Light. (end) *Morning Walk-*-October 2, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...up and down. If we keep the temple clean, then our heart will be cleansed. This is the process. [break] ...should be engaged in flower business, in dress business, light and interesting to them. They should not be given any heavy work. Cooking, helping cooking, cutting the vegetables. [break] ...woman should be engaged in something. That is wanted. [break] And to paint these panels also. Haṁsadūta: Yes, outside. So it will be painted. These decorations. Oh, the panels here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: You mean the panels. Yes, inside and outside. Prabhupāda: There are so many pictures. And what is that boy? Hari-śauri: Viṣṇu Das. Prabhupāda: He can do every panel in three days. Haṁsadūta: I've written him that Prabhupāda suggested he might come and do it. Prabhupāda: He knows the art, how to do it. [break] ...unique, American. What is this American? I could not reach. (?) [break] ...conditioner, to keep the air conditioner. There was (indistinct). Haṁsadūta: In some temples which are built like this with a courtyard, they put a screen over the top so that the birds don't come in. Can we do that or is that because... Prabhupāda: No, monkeys. Haṁsadūta: Oh, for monkeys. It keeps the birds out too. We have so many birds that come in. They sleep in the tree and they pass stool all over the place. Hari-śauri: Pigeons too. Haṁsadūta: Yes pigeons and small birds. In the lamps they are, in the fans they are. Prabhupāda: Pigeons will come. (laughs) They'll enter with this. Devotee: In the grills. Haṁsadūta: Yes, but even here a screen can be put. Devotee: Every year we'll have to change the screen. Haṁsadūta: It is too much endeavor. Prabhupāda: Much ado about nothing. [break] ...or not? Akṣayānanda: Now I don't know. Previously they were... (end) *Room Conversation-*-October 3, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...position. It is not a good position. Hari-śauri: No, it's not very clear. I was just wondering who the other two were. Prabhupāda: I took sannyāsa from him. Hari-śauri: Who is that? Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa has to be taken from a sannyāsī, so I took sannyāsa from him. Hari-śauri: Yes, I was wondering what his name was. Prabhupāda: Oh, his name is Keśava Mahārāja. He's one of the Godbrothers. He's also one of my Godbrothers. Hari-śauri: And he took it the same time. Prabhupāda: They are now dead and gone. Hari-śauri: Yes. This man, he looks very old already. The other one. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. He was... He is of my age, middle. The other one, he was older. Hari-śauri: Harikeśa said the day before you took sannyāsa you were gored by a cow or something? A cow hit you in the stomach? Prabhupāda: Before? Hari-śauri: The day before you took sannyāsa? Prabhupāda: No. No. (laughing) Hari-śauri: I was told that. I don't know whether it was... Or some time around then. Prabhupāda: That was long before. Hari-śauri: Oh, that was a long time. Prabhupāda: I took sannyāsa sometime in '59, and... No, that is after I took sannyāsa. No, no. Before, yes. Before or after,... Hari-śauri: He said it was the day before. Prabhupāda: No. That was an incident in Delhi. Now I think it was... It was before. Before. That was sometime in 1956. Hari-śauri: Oh, that's a long time before. Prabhupāda: And I took sannyāsa in 1959. Hari-śauri: That was in Vṛndāvana or Delhi? Prabhupāda: No, Delhi. Vānaprastha. I was alone. But my paper was going on, Back to Godhead. In Delhi I was alone. I was doing everything. Editing, selling, collecting, cooking. Hari-śauri: There was no Godbrothers helping at all? Prabhupāda: I did not take. They wanted. I did not like. Hari-śauri: Did you ever think at that time that you would be able to expand or... *Prabhupāda: I was trying to do. It was a struggle at that time. At that time, I lived with some of my Godbrothers, but I did not like, and I left their temple, and I was living alone. Then in Imlitala you know here? Imlitala, Seva*-kunj there is a... Hari-śauri: No, I'm not familiar. Prabhupāda: My Godbrother's temple. He had a temple in Delhi, Karol Bagh. I left Jhansi and came to Mathurā. I lived there for few months. Then I went to Delhi. In this way, here, there. Hari-śauri: The boy at the front, he's reading one of your old Bhāgavatams. He has one of your original Bhāgavatams. The boy at the front that's on guard. Akṣaya, the boy that guards. He's been reading one of your original Bhāgavatams, the 1.1. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Hari-śauri: And I was looking at the front and it gives your residence in Vṛndāvana at Rādhā*-Dāmodara and your office in Delhi. Prabhupāda: It was not unpleasant. When I was living alone, doing everything, it was not unpleasant. I was... Very nice. That was an accident. Otherwise, it was not unpleasant. Alone everything I was doing. Rather, I had not so much anxiety for management. Even my, this son came to live with me. I said, "No, you don't." Hari-śauri: Who was that? Vṛndāvana there? Prabhupāda: Hmm. They sent, my family, to go and live with me. He came twice, thrice. The reason is that I asked him "If you want to live with me then you have to live with me as sannyāsī, brahmacārī. Hari-śauri: And he couldn't. Prabhupāda: Otherwise... From 1954, '55. Up to '54... 1950, I left home 1950. From '50 to '54 I lived in Jhansi. Hari-śauri: That was when you started the League of Devotees? Prabhupāda: Hmm. At that time there were many students. They were not my disciples, but they were coming. Like... that Prabhākāra? Hari-śauri: Yes, Prabhākāra Ācārya. Prabhupāda: He was the head. Hari-śauri: (laughs) You were teaching Vaiṣṇavism or... Prabhupāda: Yes. I wanted to start from there. It was very nice, big house. But this K. Munshi's wife tactfully wanted me to... The Governor's wife. That was a very big house. Hari-śauri: Oh, there were some politics. I didn't know. Prabhupāda: But he peacefully took it. I could have fought but I did not like. All the pleaders in Jhansi, they said, "Don't leave." She was pressing through the collectors, to the manager. That house belonged to some zamindar. But it was under the management of another man, Reba Shankara(?). So he was proprietor of one cinema hall. So the governor's wife was pressing him through the collector because the license has to be renewed from the collector. Collector was insisting that "You give that house, Lilavati Munshi. Indirectly. Otherwise, your license will not be issued." Hari-śauri: They didn't leave you very much choice. Prabhupāda: I thought, I could not do something tangible. That's a fact. (indistinct) Somehow or other, I thought, let me go to Vṛndāvana. What is the use of fighting? Otherwise, all the big lawyers in Jhansi, they were my friends. They said that "You not go. We shall arrange." I thought that "I have left my home, for this reason I am going to, again litigation. I don't want this house. Let her do something." Hari-śauri: The League of Devotees, was that Godbrothers again? Was that some Godbrothers that you joined up with or was that just... Prabhupāda: No, after leaving Jhansi I went to this Godbrother. Hari-śauri: Keśava. *Prabhupāda: I lived there for few months. Then I went to another Godbrother, that Imlitala, Delhi. Then I left there. I used to live alone in Delhi. Then I took one house in Keśī*-ghāṭa. Then the Rādhā-Dāmodara men they called me that "You can live here. We give you two rooms. We don't charge. We give you the place." I came to Rādhā-Dāmodara. And from Rādhā-Dāmodara temple I went U.S.A. Hari-śauri: I was just wondering what exactly the League of Devotees was. Prabhupāda: Oh, League was that, that was... I was trying to collect some devotees. Some of them, they were medical... Yes. Medical students. So they came and used to live with me. But still, I lived there for two years. From 1954 to '56. I had some surgical operation in my testicles there. They were taking care. This Prabhākāra and... They were not full time. They were students. That's all. They were living with me. Hari-śauri: But your Bhāgavatams, it says they were published by the League of Devotees. Does that just mean yourself or there were others? Prabhupāda: (laughs) That was... League of Devotees was my organization. Therefore I gave that name. Hari-śauri: But actually it was just you. Oh. Prabhupāda: That League of Devotees, I was alone doing. (laughs) Hari-śauri: I was trying to understand who it could be. Prabhupāda: I am everything at that time. There were some students, but they were not any active. I was doing everything. That League of Devotees means I am everything. I wanted to organize with this Prabhākāra Miśra and others. But they were not interested to be... Hari-śauri: Not to become Vaiṣṇavas. Prabhupāda: No, to devote whole time. They were... Just like Prabhākāra comes still. But if you ask him to do full time work, that he'll not do. Therefore I did not initiate others. He was initiated, Haridāsa. But they were all learned scholars, Sanskrit. Hari-śauri: Do any of them come now? Do any of them come now apart from Prabhākāra? Prabhupāda: Hmm? No, they are, they have gone in the... They are practicing as medical men. They were students, medical students. Now they are practicing. Hari-śauri: They don't come to see you or anything now? Prabhupāda: Sometime they came. Long time it is passed. That was in 1956 or '55. No, '54. Hari-śauri: In Jhansi. Prabhupāda: So, twenty years past. More than twenty years. You can speak of twenty years history. What is that? (end) *Room Conversation-*-October 4, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: People have got already very respect now for the... [break] You should maintain the temple. They already call it iṁrej [English] temple. But still people come. But if you make a mleccha temple... Actually, (laughs) they can say like that, but still, they come. But their awe and veneration may be disturbed, may not be disturbed. That is management. Hari-śauri: One of the things they haven't been able to criticize us for is our Deity worship. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hari-śauri: One of the things they can't criticize is our Deity worship because it's a lot better than anywhere else. Prabhupāda: But you are not above criticism. Hari-śauri: Oh no, they criticize us for plenty of other things. That's one point, that was one point in our favor, so we should maintain it. Prabhupāda: The servant should be kept only when it is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, everything should be done by us. Haṁsadūta: I understand that, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: They are paying two thousand rupees. Haṁsadūta: Till now, as far as possible, I've let a number of people go already. But until I can get the devotees to do these engagements, I can't let the servant go. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right, but devotees why they shall not do? Haṁsadūta: Well, that is the... Prabhupāda: If they are unwilling to do then they must remain in the guesthouse as a respectable guest. Haṁsadūta: I'm finding that's happening. I have so many devotees who stay in the guesthouse because they're not willing to be engaged. Prabhupāda: They are paying? Haṁsadūta: They are paying, yes. So it will have to be dealt with very, very tactfully because for a long time there's been so many devotees here who have just not been engaged. And now someone is coming and he's trying to capture them... Prabhupāda: Reluctant to work. Haṁsadūta: ...trying to take account of their time and they become upset. They think, "Oh, now this man is going to take my time." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Haṁsadūta: Just for example... [break] ...chanting from nine to twelve, could you please chant then? She became furious. She said, "I am already making garlands for four hours. I have no time." Prabhupāda: No, no, if she is making garlands that is another thing. Haṁsadūta: I know, but it's only four hours and I said there are twenty four hours, so that leaves twenty hours left over. It will take a little time to account their time and convince them that they have to accept more and more engagement. Prabhupāda: No, if somebody is engaged in some business, so he may not chant. That concession may be given. But chanting... Haṁsadūta: But, actually... Prabhupāda: It is not very compulsory. Take it. *Haṁsadūta: But if we want to have a twenty*-four hour kīrtana, I was speaking... Prabhupāda: If that is not available, not possible, don't be very... But these things must be done. Haṁsadūta: Yes. It's just that I want to comply with all your desires. *Prabhupāda: That may be taken as voluntarily. But nobody can sit idly. That is the point. If one is engaged in making for flower garland, all right, you may not take him. It is not compulsory for you. The twenty*-four hours kīrtana may... Suppose if we haven't got sufficient men, it is not possible. It is required if there is sufficient men and they are not... We must see that they are not wasting uselessly time. That is the... If they are engaged in some business, there is no compulsory that he has to go and chant. But these things are... Śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau **. That is compulsory. It must be done by you or me or... It must be done early in the morning. Whole temple should be... There is sufficient water supply in the pipe. Simply it takes half and hour. It is neglected. I see the temple is not washed. There's so much dust. Akṣayānanda: We used to wash it three times a day. Prabhupāda: It is stopped. Akṣayānanda: With great difficulty, of course. With great difficulty, but still, it can be done. Prabhupāda: So these devotees, they come here not to work. Akṣayānanda: It is a fashion. They come to be bābājīs. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Akṣayānanda: Like that. Consciousness is like that. Haṁsadūta: Yesterday two girls came. One came from Paris and one came from Australia. When I asked them, "Did anyone send you for a particular engagement?" They said, "No, I just left." "How did you get your money?" "From my family." "Why did you come?" "We just wanted to see Vṛndāvana," and like that. And in this way, every day someone is coming and as soon as I want to... They will say, "I didn't come for this. I came..." Prabhupāda: But that's all right. If they then remain in the paying guest. Haṁsadūta: Yes. I don't want to discourage them, but at the same time I can't have people just sitting around. Prabhupāda: No, those who are coming for excursion, they can remain in the paying guest room. Pay for food, pay for... Otherwise, one has to be engaged. Devotee must voluntarily engage. Why one has to be requested? They should be very glad. Hari-śauri: They're not very conscious about doing service. Prabhupāda: But this is the service. Akṣayānanda: He used to be the temple commander, Hari-śauri. He had a very difficult time, before, about a year ago. He used to be the temple commander and nobody would... Hari-śauri: I had to practically throw them out the room sometimes. Akṣayānanda: This center particularly has just always been like that. Haṁsadūta: All the anxiety is how to get some fruit to maintain their body nicely. Very few devotees can actually accept engagement and maintain good health and a good consciousness because the change for Western people for India is so extraordinary that it disturbs their mind, and consequently their body is disturbed and then all they think about is how to maintain their body. Akṣayānanda: They're used to eating large quantities of food. Here it cannot be done. Haṁsadūta: And if I ask them... They're used to eating huge amounts of very rich foods. Prabhupāda: Where? Haṁsadūta: In the Western temples. They get so many nice foodstuffs which are not available here and when they become sick then they... Prabhupāda: What rich food? Haṁsadūta: Oh, like sour cream and butter and so many things. All kinds of fruits and vegetables. Akṣayānanda: In the West the devotees must eat about four times as much as the ones in India who are not sick. The ones in India... Prabhupāda: I see that here they eat more. Hari-śauri: They appear to eat a lot. But I don't know. The food here is not... It's not got so much nutritional value. But I've seen boys here, they have been here a year or two years and they've had dysentery constantly because they cannot control their tongues. They eat and then they get sick, they get dysentery so they say, "Oh, I need boiled this and fruit and this and that." But then again you see them on the first feast they're eating kacuri or this or that. Stuff cooked in ghee. And then immediately they become sick again, and they can't do any work all the time and at the same time they refuse to control their tongues to get better. They stay on that platform. Always sick, but not eating the correct food. Haṁsadūta: This is one of our biggest problems. Just as you say, when someone gets sick he should fast. I tell them, "Stop eating. You'll get well immediately. If you have fever, don't eat. Take water, lemon. You'll be all right in a few days." They have not realized the function of the body, how their own body is functioning, and they insist on eating. They get sicker and sicker. They complicate things. I've seen so many people get incredibly complicated digestive diseases. Then they can't work. They get jaundice, they get dysentery, amoebic dysentery, boils, all these things come from taking too much food. And then they want to change their diet. Although they change their diet, they eat so much of the changed diet that it also has no effect. Akṣayānanda: Actually, this is the main problem. Haṁsadūta: And then they require money for medicine. I have spent so much money on medicine. Now I have stopped it. I tell them, "First you fast for three days, and if you don't get better I'll give you some money for medicine." But they are constantly running to this hospital, getting this pill and that pill. All these pills are useless. The real problem is they are just overeating. And of course when they overeat they want to sleep. Because India is hot. And when they sleep then they get dysentery. And when they get dysentery they can't engage. And in this way they run into a cycle which is very difficult to break. Only very few devotees are able to maintain themselves in India for any length of time. I see a nice strong man comes and I look at him and I see him eat and I say, "Within a week this man is going to be sick." And sure enough, he's sick. He's laying down, he's got fever, he's got dysentery, he's going to the hospital. In this way we have so many people like that. Akṣayānanda: They become so weak that they can't work anyway. Hari-śauri: So they just become a liability. Haṁsadūta: I had one devotee, his name was Rad... [break] ...you know and you know. He does nothing at all. He's always sick. But at prasādam he eats more than any other man. I told him, "Prabhu, you're a doctor. You should know that if you eat so much food you can't digest, you're going to be sick." He says, "No, I'm so weak I require food. I have to, I can't get any strength." So I asked him, "At least, sit down in the temple and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." He said "I can't..." Prabhupāda: I have seen. Some of them eat so much I am surprised. Akṣayānanda: But the ones who eat that much, they are the ones who are always sick. They're the ones. Prabhupāda: Overeating means sick. Hari-śauri: I used to eat a lot but I used to burn it all off. Akṣayānanda: They don't know if you eat a lot and then work very hard, that's all right. But they eat a lot and then sleep a lot, as Mahārāja said. If they would simply work. Eat a lot, all right, but then work very hard. Then it's all digested. Hari-śauri: They eat a lot at midday and then they're useless for the rest of the day. Sleep two or three hours in the afternoon and then stagger out for ārati. Akṣayānanda: Now they eat in the morning. Prabhupāda: So, how to manage this? It is very difficult. Akṣayānanda: I thought it was better when they were eating at noon. At least they'd work before they ate, work before eating. But I don't know. But even then the thing wasn't going any better. Hari-śauri: I've found if you want things to go on, you have to make them do it. That's all. Because they don't have sufficient realization to volunteer to work. Prabhupāda: They have to be... One man say, "You come here, you do this, you do this." Then it will be done. The temple commander must be a very able man. Hari-śauri: He's got to be a heavy man. I was telling Haṁsadūta when I was here I tried for so long to get the kīrtana going at night time, and they wouldn't turn up or they'd fall asleep, or this or that. And so many people would refuse to do it. I could only get maybe five or six men out of the whole temple who would volunteer to do it. So we worked it out, we made a list of all the people who could possibly chant at night. Everyone. I even put the pūjārīs down because we were short of men. Then we said... Prabhupāda: No, pūjārīs they have to rise early. Hari-śauri: Well, yes, but apart from that... We told them, "Now you either chant this one hour at night or you go." We made them chant. And then everything went very nicely. No one... Prabhupāda: Why don't you do now? Hari-śauri: Well I told him that. He's going to do it. Prabhupāda: Not tell him, but you do it. (chuckles) Haṁsadūta: No, his suggestion is good because one hour they can do... I've noticed... Your Divine Grace suggested three hours... Prabhupāda: Three hours continually not possible. Make it one hour. Haṁsadūta: Impossible. Not a single person can do it. (end) *Garden Conversation-*-October 9, 1976, Aligarh Prabhupāda: Every father loves his son. Therefore this is contradictory. He is blind, but he has called... (microphone rattling) Indian: He has no locana. *Prabhupāda: And he has called Padma-locana. Similarly, this harijana movement is a farce because they remain the Cāmāra and Bhangis, and still they are called harijana. The same thing. No locana, but padma-locana. Everyone has got right. You can become the most advanced devotee. There is no hindrance. But they must be trained up as harijana. Not that artificially you simply rubberstamp harijana. Therefore that movement is failure. We have no objection to make anyone... Kṛṣṇa says māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. Pāpa-yoni, lower class. Janma-aiśvarya-śruta-śrī, these four things, to take birth in high class family, janma, aiśvarya, to become very rich, and śruta, to become very learned scholar, and śrī, beautiful, these four things are there whose background is pious life. Otherwise, not possible. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī [SB 1.8.26]. So those who are just the opposite-means not born in very high class family, not... They say "accident." No, it is not accident. According to śāstra, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1], there is superior examination. Yamarāja is there. Now, this man is now dead, this soul is now changing body. What kind of body he'll get next? That is judged by the superior authority. Just like in the office a person is promoted. So his record is examined, how he has worked honestly to the interest of the establishment. All this consideration. Then he's given increment of salary or promotion to higher post. This is common sense. So it is not accident. A man is born from the very beginning, a rich man's son. That does not mean that it is accident. Daiva-netreṇa. By a superior arrangement he is given the chance to take birth in a aristocratic family or rich family or educated family or in a beautiful family. There is... But this is, so far it is concerned, it is body, and our movement, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is not of the body. Body is superfluous. It is spiritual movement. Kṛṣṇa therefore begins, asmin dehe, dehī. This body is external. Just like dress. We are having this dress. I am not this dress. I am within the dress. Similarly, the spirit soul is within this body, and spiritual movement means about that spirit soul. Not of this body. So that spirit soul is completely different from this body and... Just like a gentleman is gentleman. One may have a different type of dress. Not that everyone is expected of the same dress. But within the dress, a gentleman is gentleman. Similarly, although there are so many varieties of bodies, within the body the soul is pure part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So the spiritual movement means to take up the spirit soul within the body and to elevate him from the conditioned life. That is spiritual movement. He has been put into condition. So that action can be taken without any hindrances. Without any impediment. Ahaituky apratihatā. That verse I was speaking yesterday, that without any cause, without any impediments, the soul can be raised by the process. Kṛṣṇa says māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. Never mind one is born in low class family, poor, ugly, uneducated family. It doesn't matter. But he can be raised. What is the process? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya. "One has to take shelter of Me." That is Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. We are giving equal chance everyone. It doesn't matter what he is. Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. Pāpa-yoni means low class, poor, uneducated, ugly, no education. That is pāpa-yoni. So they can be raised. Kṛṣṇa says. How? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya. If he is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore it is the topmost welfare activities in the human society. Anyone can be raised. There are different grades of life all over the world. Some are black, some are white, some are ugly, some are poor. Varieties. Some are trees, some are plants, some are aquatics, some are birds, beasts, insects. Different varieties of life, 8,400,000. Some of them demigods, Brahmā, Indra, Candra. Very, very powerful. Just like this sun, that is also a planet, and the chief person is the sun*-god Vivasvān. We get all this information. There is. These rascals, they do not know what are these planets, what are the arrangement. They are exactly like this planet. Just like here also, we have got president. It is expected, one president or one king in one planet. That was formerly. On this planet there was one king. The Pāṇḍavas, up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Five thousand years ago. One king of the whole world. One kingdom, one ruling, one culture, Vedic culture. Gradually we're losing... The culture is lost and anyone is doing as he likes. No king, no ruling. Therefore chaotic condition. Otherwise, according to God's plan, every planet there is one chief person ruling. So in the sun there is a person. His name is given in the Bhagavad-gītā. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān. His name is Vivasvān. And his son is Vaivasvata Manu. Vivasvān manave prāha. These things are there. And his son, Ikṣvāku. And from Ikṣvāku, the kṣatriya-vaṁśa... In India still, the kṣatriyas are known, two dynasties, one from sun, one from the moon. Candra-vaṁśa, Sūrya-vaṁśa. Still, they are. So the kṣatriyas are coming. One dynasty is coming from the sun, another... So moon is not desert. These are simply rascals. They do not know anything, and rascals believe that the moon is desert, and the sun is desert. Only this planet is full of variety and beauty. No. We have to take lessons from the śāstras. So anyone can be raised to the highest platform. Caṇḍālo 'pi dvija-śreṣṭho hari-bhakti-parāyaṇa.(?) Even one is born as caṇḍāla... Caṇḍāla means less than the śūdras. The dog-eaters. Caṇḍālas. Śva-paca. They are called śva-paca. Śva means dog and paca means cooker. One who cooks the... There are still so many. In Korea, in China, in Hong Kong. They eat dogs. Indian man: They consider it a delicacy. I had a German priest staying with me last year and he was telling me that he had wonderful soup. And when he found out what was the soup, he said, "Well, didn't you see the puppy that was going about this morning? It is soup of the same puppy." *Prabhupāda: In Hong Kong. Yes. In Hong Kong you won't find street dogs. They'll eat them. So in India also there are dog*-eaters. In Assam you'll find. They make kukura-piṭhā. Kukura-piṭhā means that first of all the dog is given to eat some rice preparation with gur [Indian brown sugar]. And pushing, pushing. When he dies, then it is roasted. Then that is very good food. (laughter) Kukura-piṭhā. The Assamese, they eat. There are different nations. Śva-paca, this word is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva śva-pāke ca [Bg. 5.18]. This śva-pāke means this caṇḍāla. One who eats a dog. Śva-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. So everyone can be raised to the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no difficulty. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. So from early in the morning He is teaching. Udilo aruṇa pūraba-bhāge dwija-maṇi gorā amani jāge. He was not lazy. He was very busy. From early in the morning. So if we at least pretend to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we cannot sleep. We must rise early in the morning. If you want to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu, there is no question of sleeping in the morning. One must get up at least one and a half hours before the sunrise. That is maṅgala-ārati. Maṅgala-ārati means to get up early in the morning, take your bath, and be prepared for the maṅgala-ārati. Then begin your chanting, prayer. This is activity. It is not... Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not a lazy life. It is not lazy life. All Kṛṣṇa conscious, Rāma conscious, they are very busy. To speak, even the Hanumān, Jambavān, Aṅgada, they are monkeys, still how they were busy, from the history we find, to serve Kṛṣṇa, Rāmacandra. Hare Kṛṣṇa. I was questioned by some gentleman sometimes in 1940. He charged that the Vaiṣṇava, "This Vaiṣṇava means a lazy fellow." He said like that. (laughs) So I said, "You have never seen a Vaiṣṇava." I told him, "You have never seen a Vaiṣṇava." "No, I have seen these Vaiṣṇavas. They do not do anything and taking mālā and pretending to be very highly elevated and sleep and snore." That's... You have seen... "But you have not seen. You might have seen these pseudo-Vaiṣṇavas, but real Vaiṣṇava you have not seen." "What is that real Vaiṣṇava?" And I said that in India there were two big wars. One war was the Rāma-Rāvaṇa, and another war Kurukṣetra. So in these two wars, the hero is Vaiṣṇava. One is Hanumān and another is Arjuna. Have you seen them? Have you heard about them? Are they lazy fellows? Hanumān is Vaiṣṇava. He could raise one mountain and jump over the sea and set fire in the very beautiful state of Rāvaṇa. This is Vaiṣṇava. This is Vaiṣṇava. And Arjuna, he was in the beginning hesitating that "My cousin-brothers, the other side..." (end) *Room Conversation-*-October 9, 1976, Aligarh Hari-śauri: They had that one in the bedroom in New Vrindaban. This picture, the original. It was in New Vrindaban. Prabhupāda: Kīrtanānanda has purchased. Indian man: I have washed my hands with nim soap. Now I will give you... Prabhupāda: That's all right. And Philadelphia, what is that name? Hari-śauri: Port Royal farm. Port Royal? That's the nearest place to it. Pennsylvania farm. Prabhupāda: Ah. Is there any gain there? I have been in Pennsylvania farm. They get enough quantity milk. They sell fifteen hundred dollars per month. Jaya. Indian man: Mahārāja, you wanted to have milk and apple. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all... Indian man: What time you like, sir? Prabhupāda: At nine. Indian man: Nine. Are you feeling some relief? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: You will get relief. From two, three applications, absolutely. Prabhupāda: Very good. Hari-śauri: What's the Hindi name of that drug that you were taking the other day? That plant? *Prabhupāda: Oh. Ghṛta*-kumārī. Hari-śauri: You can get some of that? Indian man: I have not heard. *Hari-śauri: Ghṛta*-kumārī. Looks like a cactus. The English name is aloe vera. Indian man: Which has got pulp? Yes. You want it? I have got it in my house. My wife takes them by making in the cāpāṭi, or paraṭā, because of her knees. It is wonderful for this pains in the knees. Yes. Hari-śauri: We were told it was good for relieving high blood pressure and clearing the... Indian man: Relieving high blood pressure, best is garlic. Prabhupāda: Garlic. Indian man: Garlic, you don't want it. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Garlic, onions, prohibited. *Hari-śauri: But if you could get some of this Ghṛta*-kumārī... Prabhupāda: It is there in his house. *Indian man: Yes, it is in my house, it is in my garden. So my wife will prepare for your breakfast. Small cāpāṭi. You will find it very tasty and delicious. That's called Gwaraka*-pata. (Hindi) Gwaraka-pata. Gwaraka. I will show you. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. That's nice. It is little bitter? Indian man: No. It is tasteless. And it is... Prabhupāda: You know? Gaursundara: Yes. We have in Hawaii. It's called aloe cactus. Aloe vera. Indian man: It is kneaded in the flour and little ghee and the paraṭā will be... It is wonderful for your joints. And this arthritis, it is wonderful. I got it about a year back and put in my garden because my wife needed and we were getting it from somebody else's garden. So I told my gardener, "Why don't you put it in our own...? We have plenty of land." Prabhupāda: It doesn't require to taken care of very much. It grows automatically. Indian man: It's growth is very good. And plenty of it. If your Divine Grace gets any benefit from it, then it can be planted in each temple on one side. No problem. And then on your visits, the place where you will use. Prabhupāda: Then we can, in Vṛndāvana. Indian man: Yes, yes. Vṛndāvana we will put the plant in Vṛndāvana. And I will show you tomorrow. Prabhupāda: No, he got from Vṛndāvana. Indian man: Got from Vṛndāvana. Hari-śauri: Yes but not from our temple. From an āśrama it's grown. Indian man: Well, I will show you what you mean and I mean are the same things. And my wife will make herself for breakfast. He will like it. Gaurasundara: Rub it. Do you apply it externally? Hari-śauri: Well, this is the first I've ever heard of it. Gaurasundara: Break a little. You can rub it on eczema or anything, very helpful. Hari-śauri: I know it's very good for burns. Gaurasundara: We use it on cuts and things. Yes, burns, very good. Any skin disease you rub a little of it. Hari-śauri: We can try that. That boy that came from Philippines, (indistinct) he told us. Gaurasundara: It's also Hawaiian medicine. Very nice. Prabhupāda: Body is simply troublesome. (end) *Garden Conversation-*-October 14, 1976, Chandigarh *Prabhupāda: That is special advantage of this age. People are very much fallen from spiritual standard, and to fall down from the spiritual standard means to spoil the humanity. There is no education on this point. That is Vedic culture. Most of them, they do not believe that there is soul, spirit soul, and human life is meant for understanding it and make progress on that platform. Most of them, they do not know. There is no education, I think so. Everyone reads Bhagavad*-gītā, mostly, but they do not understand the first lesson. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Nobody understands. What is your understanding about this transmigration of the soul? Indian man (1): We consider that man gets life after death according to his karma. Prabhupāda: Yes. Do you believe on this? Indian man (1): We have this belief. Prabhupāda: Then what is the preparation? If we believe that we have to get another life after death, then what preparation we have made? Indian man (1): Preparation? We... The real truth is we don't know. Prabhupāda: That is I am saying. Indian man (1): This is what we would like to know from... (microphone rattling) ...the learned people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is our duty, provided you want to learn it. But practically they are not interested. That is the pity of the situation. They... Nature's law is there, but they do not care for the nature's law. They are so irresponsible. Indian man (1): Nature's laws are inexorable. Prabhupāda: Yes. We cannot surpass. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. This nature's law is so strict, you cannot disobey. Indian man (1): We can't bend it. It is un... inevitable, inexorable. Prabhupāda: Yes, inexorable. Yes, yes, inexorable. Indian man (1): And nobody can interfere? Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (1): God alone. *Prabhupāda: God can do anything. He is all*-powerful. That is only... Indian man (1): But does He interfere... Does he intervene in our actions? Prabhupāda: Who? Indian man (1): I mean, God, does He... *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. God interferes if you are a devotee. Otherwise, you have to undergo the laws of nature. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām [Bs. 5.54]. Karma, according to your karma, you are conducted by the laws of nature. Just like if you touch fire, the laws of nature is: it will burn. Even a child touches the fire, there is no excuse. The laws of nature will not excuse a child, that "This child does not know it has touched the fire. Let it not be burned." No. Ignorance is no excuse. You cannot surpass or avoid laws of nature. It is not possible. If you can eat one chātā,(?) and if you eat little more, then there will be trouble. Indian man (1): Then what about miracles performed by so many people? Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Nobody can play anything. Magician also can make. Indian man (1): Interfere with the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Nobody can. It is all foolishness, all rascaldom. They are all rascals and who understands miracle, they are also rascals. Laws of nature cannot be changed. Indian man (1): There may be several laws which we don't know. Prabhupāda: There are many laws. What do you know? You do not know anything. (chuckles) Indian man (1): We do not know. Then I say those miracles may be possible according to those laws that we don't know. Prabhupāda: There is no miracle. If you touch fire, it will burn, that's all. *Indian man (2): Swamiji, is bhakti*-mārga enough to have liberation? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakti*-mārga... First of all, you must know what is liberation. What do you mean by liberation? *Indian man (2): Jīvan*-mukta. Prabhupāda: No, explain. Indian man (2): When feeling one with the consciousness, world consciousness, universal soul. *Prabhupāda: Universal soul is spirit, and you are also spirit. That sense, you are one. But universal soul is different from you. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that there are two souls within the body. One soul is the individual soul, and the other soul is the Supersoul. That Supersoul is universal soul, and the individual soul, you are individual soul. As soul, the quality is the same, but you are individual soul, and Lord is universal soul. There, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated clearly, kṣetra-kṣetrajña. Kṣetrajña is the soul; *kṣetra is this body. So kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "I am also kṣetrajña, soul, but sarva-kṣetreṣu. You individual soul, you know the pleasure, pains, of your body, but you do not know what are the pleasure and pains of my body." Do you know? Indian man (2): No, sir. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are individual. You know the pleasure and pains of your body. I know the pleasure and pains of my body. But there is another soul; *that is Supersoul. Sarva*-kṣetreṣu bhārata. He knows your pleasure, pains. He knows my pleasure and pains. He knows everyone's pleasure and pains. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Therefore, as soul they are one in quality, but in consciousness they're different. He knows everyone's pleasure and pains; I know my pleasure and pain. *Indian man (2): My humble prayer was that by doing japa, by doing meditation, by doing bhakti*-mārga, need we go to jñāna-mārga also, or bhakti-mārga is enough by itself? That was my humble supplication. *Prabhupāda: Bhakti*-mārga is enough. Bhakti-mārga means it includes everything. Without jñāna, there is no bhakti. The jñāna is called brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20]; *that is real jñāna. If you... Aiye. If you understand your position, then it is jñāna. If you do not understand your position, then where is jñāna? Do you follow? Therefore Bhagavān says, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. When... So long you are ajñāna, in ignorance, you cannot be happy. You cannot be happy. But when you are in jñāna, then you'll be happy. That is the symptom of becoming jñānī. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. Ātmā becomes very happy. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. He has no more any lamentation and hankering. There are two things in this material world. We are hankering after something which we do not possess, and we are lamenting for something which we possessed and we have lost. This is the disease, material disease. So when one comes to the platform of jñāna, then he has no more such disease, hankering and lamenting. Here the whole world is going on, lamenting and hankering. So brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20] means na śocati na kāṅkṣati and samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. And here, so long we are on the material platform, we are not samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. We are thinking, "You are different from me; *I am different from you. My interest is first." You are thinking your interest is first and so on, so on. So not samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. But when you become actually jñānī, brahma*-bhūtaḥ, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. When you are in distress, na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, prasannātmā, then bhakti begins. Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām [Bg. 18.54]. So bhakti is not so easy thing. Indian man (1): Bhakti depends on jñāna. It cannot be immediately. Prabhupāda: Bhakti means when one understands his real position, means all misunderstanding gone. Indian man (3): Ajñāna. *Indian man (4): When there is that last śloka in the Eighteenth adhyāya, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. *Prabhupāda: How you can do unless you understand your position? When you understand your position, that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa," then you can do that. If I say immediately, "Mr. Such*-and-such, you give up everything. You become... Surrender unto me." Will you do? No, you'll not do. But when you understand your position-"Yes, it is my duty"-then you'll do it. *Indian man (4): No, brahma*-bhūta is... *Prabhupāda: Brahma*-bhūta [SB 4.30.20] means first of all you understand your identity. You are now identifying yourself as Indian, or as brāhmaṇa, or as kṣatriya, or white, or black, and so many things. Indian man (4): My first identification is my own body. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is ajñāna. So long you are identifying with the body, you are no better than the animal. So we are doing that. We are fighting. "I am Indian. You are Englishman. You are this. You are that. You are..." Simply we are fighting, like cats and dogs, they fight. So that is ajñāna. How you can be prasannātmā? So when one becomes actually situated in spiritual life, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. That is the... In this way when you make further progress, when you actually understand that you are eternal servant of God, then you surrender. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. This situation takes many, many births to cultivate. And when he actually understands, jñānavān*-not fools, rascals-then māṁ prapadyate, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. That mahātmā is very rare to be found. So bhakti is not so easy. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. It is not so easy. It takes many, many births to come to the understanding that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya manasaḥ [Bg. 9.13]. This is mahātmā. Indian man (4): Does the soul which passes from body to body, does it or he experience the pains and pleasures of my body? Prabhupāda: Certainly. You just strike one dog-"Ka! Ka! Ka!" Why? Does not feel pain? And Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved even the trees, they feel pains and pleasure. Indian man (4): It may be the soul which... *Prabhupāda: It is the stage. It is stage. Just like the tree. If you cut, it does not feel so much pains and pleasure as a human being. It is the development of consciousness. So in human form of body the consciousness is developed. Therefore he can understand what is his position. And therefore for human being there are śāstras-the Vedas, the Purāṇas*-to understand his position. The tree cannot take advantage of the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. A cat cannot take advantage. Indian man (4): Even an animal cannot. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So if we do not take advantage of the opportunity of understanding my identification, then we are committing suicide, jumping like cats and dogs, that's all. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Such persons have been described as go-kharaḥ. Go means cows, and khara means ass. Indian man (3): Khara means? Prabhupāda: Ass. I think this khara is word is used by Urdu. Phir vamusthi vrsti kharaḥ. (little discussion in Urdu or Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Sa eva go*-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. One who identifies his body. Indian man (5): Mūḍha, you explained last night. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on. That's it, that we should take advantage of this human form of life, and we must know what is our position, why we are in this material world. I am this body or so... So many things. This is called brahma*-jijñāsā. But nobody is interested. That is the effect of bad education. And especially in the Western countries, they do not believe in the next birth. They do not believe, although it is very clearly pointed out by Kṛṣṇa, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā: [Bg. 2.13] "The body is changing from baby body, is coming, becoming a boy, a boy is becoming a young man, young man is becoming middle-aged man, and the middle-aged man is becoming old man." The body is changing every moment, and still, they do not believe. Every one of us, we know that we had a childhood body, a boy's body. Where is that body? That body is gone. I am existing, but the body is not existing. Therefore I have changed body. This simple word, they do not understand. Therefore they are called mūḍha. Kṛṣṇa is pointing out, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Similarly, there is after this, after so-called death, the soul changes to another body, and He still further clearly says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: [Bg. 2.20] "After the destruction of this body, the person is not killed. He's not dead." Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. These things are there, but nobody understands. And they're very good scholar, big, big student of Bhagavad-gītā. But these things they do not understand. And they're writing very, very big, big comments. Indian man (4): In theory everybody believes it, that na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Prabhupāda: No. What is that nonsense theory? We must know it actually. What is the use of theory? Theory is no good. You must know factually. That is knowledge. Theory is not knowledge. Anyone can put forward some nonsense theory. That is not knowledge. Knowledge means factual. That is... So we have to take knowledge... Indian man (4): How To attain that knowledge then? Prabhupāda: That also, Kṛṣṇa is explaining. Why don't you take it? The knowledge is there, but you refuse to accept. So what is fault? Whose fault it is? Indian man (4): How should I persuade myself that that...? Prabhupāda: No, if you don't persuade, nobody can induce you to persuade. If you are obstinate, who can persuade you? Indian man (4): Well, the devil persists. (?) I try to believe he persists. (?) *Prabhupāda: But you must agree. Therefore it is advised, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet, samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. First of all, you have to surrender. But if you don't surrender, how you'll get knowledge? If you think you are very big man, then how you get knowledge? Indian man (4): No, we don't think that we are big men. Prabhupāda: No, no, everyone thinks that, not you. I don't say particular. Everyone thinks, "I know everything." Indian man (4): No, no. We think that we are ignorant, petty creatures. Correct. And we know... Prabhupāda: But if you think so, that you are ignorant petty creatures, then you take knowledge from the authority. Why don't you take it? What is the meaning that you think you are ignorant petty creature, at the same time, when the most learned person is giving you knowledge, Kṛṣṇa, you don't take it? What kind of...? Indian man (4): But there are so many authorities presented to me. But there is the Bible, there is the Koran, there is... Prabhupāda: No, first of all, you are born in India. Why you are jumping to Bible? (laughter) This is another foolishness. You take care of your own house. You are jumping like monkey to Bible. (laughter) Indian man (4): In our own house there are quite a few dharmas. *Prabhupāda: Therefore ācāryavān puruṣo veda. You have to follow the ācāryas. In our country there are ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, those who are recognized authority. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. In the Bhagavad*-gītā, ācāryopāsanam. You have to worship the ācārya. Indian man (6): You have to look up your... *Prabhupāda: Yes. The ācārya's paramparā is there. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Indian man (4): There is no dearth of ācārya in India. There is ācārya Rajneesh, there is ācārya... Prabhupāda: No. There is ācārya, and there are fools also. Ācārya is there, and fools are there also. The agnostics are there. They will not accept any ācārya. You accept some ācārya. Why you become skeptic? At least, we have to accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme ācārya. Why don't you accept Him? If you are embarrassed whom to select ācārya, so who can be better ācārya than Kṛṣṇa? Why don't you accept Him? That means you want to avoid under some plea. Otherwise there is ācārya. If you don't believe in other ācārya, you take at least Kṛṣṇa who is accepted by all the ācāryas. Either Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, or anyone, will they not accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme teacher? Whole world is understanding Kṛṣṇa is the supreme teacher. At least at the present moment they are accepting. We are selling our books daily five to six lakhs' worth, only these Kṛṣṇa consciousness books. And in our country we do not accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme ācārya. What is this? That is our misfortune. Kṛṣṇa is recognized ācārya. There is no doubt about it. Indian man (7): Sir, (Hindi?) *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa also says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāt. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān nāvamanyeta karhicit [SB 11.17.27]. Ācārya and Kṛṣṇa*-identical. Who is ācārya? Who speaks on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, he is ācārya. Ācārya means one who speaks on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. That is ācārya. Indian man (4): Because Kṛṣṇa never wrote any book... Prabhupāda: He spoke. Indian man (4): ...therefore we have to depend upon His... Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa did not write, but Kṛṣṇa spoke. If you speak and if I note down and write, what is the difference? Because you did not see, therefore it is not good? He spoke and I note down, er, you note down. Then it is as good. Kṛṣṇa was speaking, and Sañjaya was noting, and that was written by Vyāsadeva in the *Mahābhārata*. So what is the difference? *Indian man (4): That is one disclosure. That is one only Bhagavad*-gītā. *Prabhupāda: That is sufficient. First of all, you understand few lines of Bhagavad*-gītā; *then jump over other. About this only, one line, tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13], if you simply understand this one line, your life will be successful. Indian man (3): Kindly explain this line. Prabhupāda: This line, it is clear, that you have to change this body. Have you got any objection to take it? Indian man (4): No. Prabhupāda: Then why you are not serious, "What kind of body I am going to get?" Here is a body, tree. If you are going to accept a body like this, just how miserable it will be. Why you are not afraid? Just like if you want to go from here, Chandigarh, to Delhi, you have to arrange so many things. So what we are doing, that we have to change this body? And there are 8,400,000 different types of bodies. Which body I am going to get? Why we are not serious? We are spoiling our life. Indian man (4): . That eight million, is that fixed thing, that...? So many life, so many animals species and genera... have become extinct. Prabhupāda: 8,400,000 species. Indian man (4): Those that have become extinct, dinosaurs and those... Prabhupāda: That is rascals' theory. Nothing extinct. Indian man (4): This is not correct. *Prabhupāda: No. Just like he says that man comes from monkey. Monkey is extinct? Where is the question of extinction? There is no question of extinction. There are different species of life, and according to your karma... Just like there are first*-class, second-class, third-class compartments. If you pay for the first-class, you enter into first-class. You cannot say that third-class is extinct. According to your karma... Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. According to... As you pay. If you pay for third-class, you enter into third-class compartment. If you pay for first-class, you enter into first-class. So it is according to your karma you'll get a body. Why it should be extinct? Indian man (4): Because it is extinct. We find there are those... fossilized... Prabhupāda: You do not find. This is only... You simply repeat Darwin, that's all. You do not find. You do not see anything. You simply hear from Darwin. You have taken Darwin as your authority. But you don't take authority, *Vedas*. That is your fault. Indian man (4): Darwin had drawn that theory from observations... Prabhupāda: Wherefrom he has drawn? He has speculated only, like a rascal. That's all. Wherefrom he got this thing? He has said that "It is my speculation." Speculation is no knowledge. You can speculate in your own way. Knowledge gathered from the authority, that is real knowledge. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] We have published even in Chinese language. European. Indian man (8): With your comments or...? Prabhupāda: No, comments means to explain the original verse. Indian man (8): You have explained also in that copy? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (8): From where we can get, sir? Prabhupāda: You can get from our temple here. Or from the pandal. (end) *Press Interview-*-October 16, 1976, Chandigarh Interviewer: No, I've seen this. It is in the library. No, but still I have realization(?). Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Five hundred libraries in India have ordered these books in the last four months. Interviewer: Must have. These are very good quality book, it is. Very good quality. Prabhupāda: Give this one book from the... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I brought it back. [break] *Prabhupāda: India's culture and knowledge are richer than any other culture. And that is being accepted. Yes. Real knowledge, real culture is in India. Unfortunately, we did not try in that way. We simply went to the foreign countries to beg, "Give us wheat, give us this, give us this, give us that." But if we give our culture, they will accept that India is still richer than any other. You can bring some of the press items, professor, learned scholars' opinions. Aiye. (pause) Where is Caitya*-guru? Haṁsadūta: He's out. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Opinions of the big scholars. Interviewer: I would request you to wait for five minutes because some other journalists are coming. They are... Interviewer (2): Here is some material written about... Interviewer: Oh really? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The electricity is off at the moment so we... *Prabhupāda: So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purely a spiritual movement. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult to understand the activities of this movement. There are two things, material and spiritual. That is the beginning of instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa begins with this statement: that this body is not the person, the soul is the person. Asmin dehe. Within this body there is the soul. And he has explained in different ways that this body is antavanta ime dehā [Bg. 2.18]. This body is perishable, but the soul is not perishable. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20], that even after the destruction of the body the soul is not destroyed. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. The soul never takes birth, never dies. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamāne [Bg. 2.20]. There are so many things explained, what is the soul. So without the soul, this body is useless. That everyone can understand. Therefore the importance should be given to the soul, not to the body. Kṛṣṇa says that anyone who is paṇḍita, in knowledge, he does not give any importance to the body, either living or dead. So the India's particular culture is how to elevate the soul to the highest platform of perfection. That is India's culture. The whole Vedic literature is meant for that, and Bhagavad-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literature. And the purpose is that soul is now entrapped within this material world, and the human life is the opportunity for getting oneself out of this entrapment of material existence. So if we do not take care of this important business of human life-as it is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra-athāto brahma jijñāsā. This life is meant for understanding about the Brahman or the spirit soul. And there are two kinds of spirit soul. One is called the Supersoul, and the other is called the individual soul. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṣetra-kṣetrajñā. This chapter. Kṣetra means this body and kṣetrajñā means one who knows about the body. You know about your body. Not fully, but at least partially, every one of us we know, "This is my body. I am.... I got this body from such father and mother. I belong.... This body belongs to such and such country." And so on. This is one knowledge. So another soul is there. That is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. He says that kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. That is Supersoul. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. He is everywhere within this universe, even within the atom. That is Supersoul. That Supersoul is*-the distinction between soul and the Supersoul is this, that we are individual soul.... I know about the pains and pleasure of my body, you know the pains and pleasure of your body, but I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body, you do not know the pains or pleasure of my body. The Supersoul, He knows the pains and pleasure of all bodies. That is the distinction. Ātmā, Paramātmā. So these things can be understood in the human form of life. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand. If we want to educate the cats and dogs that "My dear dog, you are not this body. You are different from this body. You are spirit soul, Brahman," he has no capacity to understand. And a human being, however fallen he may be, if he is educated, he can understand about the position of spirit soul and how to become free from this material bondage. So in India we have got immense Vedic literature for understanding this business of the soul. And in human form of body, if we do not take care of the spiritual portion of our life, then we are making suicide. That is the proposal of all great personalities born in India, ācāryas like.... Recent.... Formerly, there were big, big ācāryas like Vyāsadeva and others. Devala. Many, many ācāryas. And the recent, within, say, one thousand five hundred years there are, there were many ācāryas like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, and within five hundred years Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They have also given us many literatures about this spiritual knowledge. But at the present moment this spiritual knowledge is neglected. So it is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message to the whole world that every one of you, you become guru, a spiritual master. So how everyone can become a spiritual master? To become a spiritual master is not easy job. One must be very learned scholar and must have full realization of the self and everything. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us a little formula, that if you strictly follow the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā and if you preach the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā, then you become guru. The exact words used in Bengali, it is said, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. To become guru is very difficult job, but if you simply carry the message of Bhagavad-gītā and try to convince anyone you meet, then you become a guru. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for this purpose. We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is without any malinterpretation. If we interpret Bhagavad-gītā in our own way that is not very good. If you have got a different opinion, you can preach your philosophy. Everyone is free. But one should not take Bhagavad-gītā and through Bhagavad-gītā one will try to preach his own philosophy. That is very bad. You should not do that. Then the authority of Bhagavad-gītā is lost. If everyone can interpret in his own way, then where is the authority of the Bhagavad-gītā? Just like in the Vedas... We take Vedas as the authority. But if you interpret in your own way and squeeze out some meaning in your own way, then where is authority of the Vedas? So our special stress on this point is that don't squeeze out some meaning of Bhagavad-gītā for your own convenience. Present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people will be benefited. And that is being practically seen. We are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You have seen our book? Interviewer: When can we put questions? Devotee: After. *Prabhupāda: Yes, let me finish, that... We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and it is being accepted all over the world. People are very much, those who are scholars, they say that even Rādhākrishnan and Aurobindo, they presented Bhagavad-gītā making some compromise with Western ideas. But here is presentation of Bhagavad-gītā in India's original traditional way. So they welcome it. And this is our, I mean to say, object also, that we cannot allow Bhagavad-gītā to be understood by anyone's imagination. No. That is not possible. And that is not allowed in the Bhagavad-gītā by the author. Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter that as soon as the paramparā system of understanding is lost, then the whole thing is lost. In the Fourth Chapter it is said. Find out Fourth Chapter. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there another Bhagavad*-gītā? Prabhupāda: Why don't you bring another copy? Hari-śauri: Pradyumna might have one. Interviewer: Here is one. *Prabhupāda: Fourth Chapter, you find, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Kṛṣṇa says that this Bhagavad-gītā knowledge was first of all given to.... Fourth Chapter. Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You can ask your questions now. Interviewer: Sir, who initiated you into this movement? Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja. You show my Guru Mahārāja's picture here. Here is a picture. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here here. Haṁsadūta has it right here. Prabhupāda: He asked me to do this. Haṁsadūta: Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda. Interviewer: Has he a seat here in India? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Founder of the Gauḍīya Math. *Prabhupāda: He is the founder of Gauḍīya Math. He advised me to take up this movement when I was twenty*-five years old, young man. But at that time I thought that "I am a married man; *let me wait." So waiting, waiting. When I retired at the... I was born in 1896. So I retired in 1954. That means I retired at the age of fifty*-eight years. At fifty-eight years. Then I remained as a vānaprastha in Vṛndāvana up to seventieth year of my age. Then I thought that "Guru Mahārāja asked me to do this at the age of, when I was twenty-five years old. I could not do it. So let me try." So by his grace and Kṛṣṇa's grace, it became little successful. That's all. In 1965 I went to New York without any help. But gradually, in 1966 I registered this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in New York. And then gradually, it spread whole America, Europe, Australia, Canada. Like that. Interviewer: What is the reason of the success of your mission in the foreign countries? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very intelligent question. We are after material civilization, and they are fed up with material civilization. That is the position. We are now trying to imitate them, a skyscraper building, but they are disgusted with skyscraper building. These boys, they are coming from very respectable family, rich family, and especially in America there is no question of poor man. There is no question of poor man. But still, they do not like the materialistic way of life of their father and grandfathers. Interviewer: But does that not mean because they are rich they can afford religion. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is the... Because you are... We have already explained. You are a spiritual being. You cannot be satisfied with material atmosphere in any stage. Just like a fish is an animal of the water. If you bring the fish from water and keep on the land very comfortably, it cannot be comfortable. It is impossible. Similarly, we are all spiritual beings. Any amount of material comforts will never satisfy us, unless we come to the spiritual platform. That is the demand. So now they have satisfied their material demands, but the urge is there, "I want something more, to be happy." And that is spiritual. Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that? Prabhupāda: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. [break] ...knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing. (sound coming on and off, tape recorder faulty.) So our this movement is successful... On account of this movement... [break] ...learned scholars and those who are inquisitive, advanced... [break]... He Maharishi Mahesh Yogi says that this is material. If you perform this meditation, transcendental meditation, you will be materially benefited. That is not spiritual meditation. Interviewer: You have said that India should take this movement seriously. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: How do you want India to take this movement? *Prabhupāda: Seriously means that a spiritual movement is India's movement. So if some of our leading men take seriously, then whatever I am doing single*-handed... I don't get any support either from the Indian public or from the government. But if they take it seriously, then we can present in more organized way and it will be more successful. So far it is done single-handed. Interviewer: Do you think there is a necessity to open a ministry of religion? Prabhupāda: I think so. Because there is a cultural department in the central government but they do not know what is culture. Just see. Interviewer: What is the difference between God consciousness and Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: There is no difference. The same thing. Kṛṣṇa is God. [break] Interviewer: What is, sir, the number of your disciples round the world? *Prabhupāda: Dedicated life*-not less than ten thousand. And admirers, there are many millions. Recently one American politician has remarked in Houston, that "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is spreading like epidemic. So unless we take some steps it may take our government." (laughter) Interviewer: Who was the man who said it? Hari-śauri: A government official in Houston. Prabhupāda: No, no, what is his name? You can give. Hari-śauri: His name was not given. Prabhupāda: Oh. Simply it is said a government official. Interviewer: He said on the floor of the House or outside? Hari-śauri: Said it on the TV. Haṁsadūta: Houston. Houston, Texas. (everyone talking at once.) Interviewer: Are you getting any opposition from the church? Prabhupāda: No. That is very favorable. No. Otherwise, it was impossible. At least in America they have never prevented me. But in Europe especially in England and Germany, they, the Christian group, they are little angry with me. But so far America, they are very liberal. They never put any impediments in my movement. Rather, government appreciates. The appreciated one point, that the American younger generation, they have become addicted to this LSD, intoxication, and they have spent millions of dollars to stop this, but they could not. But they are surprised that as soon as this LSD man becomes my disciple, he gives up immediately. Interviewer: Sir, apart from Catholicity of the American church, what can be the other reasons of their indifference towards your positive ideas? Prabhupāda: Not indifference. They are... You see, there is a remark of a politician. There is no indifference. They are appreciating that it is spreading like epidemic. There is no question of indifference. But the leaders, they appreciate. Some of the fathers of my disciples, they come to offer their thanks, "Swamiji, it is a great fortune for us that you have come to our country." They say like that. They appreciate that their sons were going to be hippies. Now they are devotees, God conscious. So any sane man will never object to this. The priests also, they say that "These boys are our boys..." In Boston, one priest said. "And they never cared to come to the church or inquire about God. And now these boys are mad after God." Not only that, practically, in many places we have purchased churches and converted into temples. So we see these churches were sold because nobody was coming. But since this movement is there, the same church is there and the same persons are there. You will find always it is crowded. This is practical. I have not imported men from India to fill up the temples. Their men and their church, but the philosophy is different. It is filled up. Interviewer: Can you give us the number how many temples are there in foreign countries? Prabhupāda: I have established 102 temples. Small and big. Out of them, very big temples are in Los Angeles, in London, in Hawaii, Honolulu, in Detroit... And... Haṁsadūta: New York, Chicago. Prabhupāda: New York, Chicago. Hari-śauri: Toronto. *Prabhupāda: Toronto, Montreal, Paris, so many. So many temples. Very, very big temples. The cost is sometimes fifty lakhs, fifty*-five lakhs each temple. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: New York is more than a million dollars, New York temple. Interviewer: Do you have any proposal to spread this movement in Communist countries? Prabhupāda: Yes, we have already gone. I have been in Moscow. This, my secretary, he has brought some order from them. They are also appreciating. Interviewer: Now two priests of your temple in America have been arrested on certain charges as we read from the newspaper... *Prabhupāda: Well, the charges will be there. Gandhi was also charged, and was arrested. And that you cannot stop. That will go on in any movement. That is not any fault. Because the counter*-charges are already there, everywhere. What is the American charges? I do not know. What is that? Interviewer: That you have money from... Extortion of money from the devotees. Asking their parents to pay or some such thing. Prabhupāda: Parents to pay. This is a farce. Interviewer: As a donation or contribution. Prabhupāda: So we can ask donation from anyone. What is the fault there? Is it extortion? What is that extortion? Suppose if I ask for donation... Interviewer: No, they equate that this donation was extortion. Prabhupāda: No, no, extortion, what do you mean by extortion? If I ask you donation and if you pay, does it mean it is extortion? Interviewer: They say those two people were kept in custody before... *Prabhupāda: That is false accusation. There was no such charge. Besides that, we do not have many contributions. We have got contributions, big lumps of money. One of my disciples is the great*-grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. So he has given a big contribution, and he's always prepared to spend for me. He has got enough money. Another boy, George Harrison, Beatle, he has given us the London temple. It is worth about fifty-five, sixty lakhs worth. So we don't get any money, but they have given us many buildings. And our main source of income is the selling of these books. We are selling books daily all over the world, five to six lakhs rupees. Interviewer: Five to six lakhs... Prabhupāda: Rupees. Per day. Interviewer: Per day! Prabhupāda: And by this collection, from this collection, we are bringing money in India. We are bringing money in India not less than ten lakhs of rupees per month. Our buildings and temples are going on in Bombay, in Vṛndāvana, in Navadvīpa. So we have got at least ten lakhs of rupees expenditure for these temples, and that I am bringing from foreign countries. So if by laboring hard at night in this dictaphone, I write books and I sell them in the foreign countries and I bring the money here for spending in India, do you think it is faulty? Interviewer: One American professor who is a teacher of Hinduism there, in some of the universities you mentioned, she said, I asked him a question about ISKCON, and she said, "Well this thing is creating a bad impression in the sense that people are accosted everywhere, in the streets, on the airport, at the bus stand. They accost you and force you to buy their literature, to buy their books. And this is creating a revulsion. Prabhupāda: So why you are forced? Suppose as preaching work... In our childhood we saw the Christian preachers were also standing on the road. So if we stand on the road and preach and sell our books what is the fault? Interviewer: I put that. He said you are doing what the Christian... [break] Prabhupāda: No. The government allowed them, the Christian people. The government is allowing us also. Then where is the fault? Interviewer: The fault is... Prabhupāda: That is your imagination, fault. Interviewer: It's not a legal fault. Prabhupāda: Well, that's all right. We are preacher, we must preach in every way. We shall go everyone, that "Here is Kṛṣṇa consciousness literature. Kindly take it." That is our business. The government does not object to this. There are many cases in the court and the court allowed, "Yes. They should sell." We have got some... [break] Hari-śauri: ...about 150,000 people every week to take our books. *Prabhupāda: Not only that. Where is that letter? Standard Literature? Here, there is one English company, Standard Literature Company. They are proposing that "We shall purchase every quarterly 200 sets of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Let us settle terms." Do you mean to say it is extortion? And the professors are giving their opinion by extortion? It is appreciation. Unfortunately, you don't appreciate. Interviewer: But what is the reason... Prabhupāda: Because there is substance. There is spiritual substance. They are appreciating. Interviewer: What is your analysis for why it is not being... [break] *Prabhupāda: Because you have rejected... (faulty recording inaudible) Therefore in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, find out this verse, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām samādhau na vidhīyate [Bg. 2.44]. Vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ. Those who are, whose attention is drawn to the material comforts, they cannot take an interest in spiritual life. [break] Our attention is diverted how to improve materially. Therefore we are disinterested. But they have seen much about material advancement, they are not happy. Material advancement means generally, as we understand from the literature, viśayinaṁ saṅdarśanam atha yoṣitaṁ ca [Cc. Madhya 11.8]. Material comfort means woman and money. So they have tasted all this woman and money enough. Woman, money are available very easily. But they are not interested. Interviewer: Sir, do you think it is necessary for India to eschew religion? *Prabhupāda: It is not religion. I have already explained. Did you not mark that this is spiritual knowledge? You are combination of spirit and matter. The spirit I have already explained. And if you don't take care of the spirit portion then you are making suicide. You are losing the opportunity of your human life. It is essential. One should be cognizant of the spiritual necessity of life. Otherwise, you are losing the opportunity of this human form of life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Then you remain as cats and dogs and there is risk, very risky life. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir. You do not know what kind of body you are going to get next life. It is essential. You must be prepared... [break] ...body, but you do not know what kind of body you are going to accept. That knowledge is lacking. Interviewer: One question. You have priced these books very high comparatively for the poorer countries. Do you have any plans to reduce... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You have priced these books very high for poor countries. Haṁsadūta: We're printing locally now. The same books, but local printing so that they can be afforded by the public. *Prabhupāda: Yes. When we print locally it will be sold at half*-price. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This Bhagavad*-gītā for example, it's going to be sold to the masses at fifteen rupees in about three weeks. We are printing the Indian edition with 48 color plates. The government of India is giving us concessional paper for printing. They are very pleased with our... We're getting lot of concessional paper so we are expanding the printing. Interviewer: What is the price of this edition? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is, in America it's seven dollars, seven dollars ninety*-five cents. Prabhupāda: And what the home member has said? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The home minister recently said that he wants this movement to be spread all over the world. One of the prominent people said he wants this movement to be spread all over the world. Interviewer: Now, sir, from your lips, how to attain this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and to maintain it? Prabhupāda: Once you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will maintain. You won't have to... Interviewer: No, from your own, direct from your lips how to... *Prabhupāda: No, this direction is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā that... Find out this verse, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. It is very simple thing. Find out this verse. (Indian guest is entering or leaving and Prabhupāda says for him to take prasādam in Hindi) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: *Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty? If you think of Kṛṣṇa, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto, is there any difficulty? There is no difficulty. Interviewer: I think his problem is, it is my problem as well. You see, the spiritual consciousness does not stay at the same level. Sometimes you are well absorbed. At other times you do all the arja. The arja, the bhakti. It's not a constant factor. Prabhupāda: No, you have to keep it constantly. Interviewer: How to do it? That is the problem. Prabhupāda: That we have see, if you come to our center, live with us, you'll see how we are doing it. You are welcome. You can live with us any time or any period of time. You'll see how we are doing that. Interviewer: Thank you, but you know I have living here quite often but... Prabhupāda: We have our centers, we have got big centers in Bombay, in Navadvīpa, in Vṛndāvana. We have got very comfortable guest house. So you can come and live with us and see practically. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If you all don't mind, just for five minutes, we would like to read the selected extracts from some leading scholars about this movement. We're not reading the views of Western scholars. These books are being used in five thousand universities, including Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, but some of the leading Indian scholars. So you also get an understanding of the Indian appreciation of Prabhupāda's activities. This for example, is a letter from Mr. Ghosh, District and Summon Judge in West Bengal: "I'm highly impressed at the sincerity and devotion of the disciples of the International Society of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. A visit to the Māyāpura Chandrodaya Mandir, West Bengal, sublimes the mind from all harsh talk and disturbing influences." Then... Prabhupāda: (aside:) Stop now. Don't divert attention. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a letter from Śrī Ambarish Sarkar, General Secretary of the Nadia District Congress Committee. "I had an opportunity to visit the Śrī Māyāpura Chandrodaya Mandir on the 12th August, 1975. It is absolutely a religious institution. Jayapātāka Swami has devoted all of his efforts and endeavors to organize and propound the sacred name of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. I'm impressed by his charming manner and strength. Although it is a religious institution, this organization has performed many social services. Many poor and destitute families have had an opportunity to work and at the same time they have become worshipers of Lord Śrī Caitanya. To engage these workers, so many industrial centers have already been started, such as handloom cloth, printing, etc. I wish this organization, with its help of the local people, all success." *Prabhupāda: We're not only chanting, we are giving them work. We are trying to become self*-sufficient, the same idea of Gandhi's village organization, so they may not come out from the village. They'll be satisfied, village economics. That we are doing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Prabhupāda is doing the same thing in America now. Prabhupāda: America we have nine, eleven centers like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Farms. This is a review from a local, from O.P. Baradraj, Principal of Government College for Men, Chandigarh. Prabhupāda: One minute. Perhaps you are, any representative of Novara Times? Interviewer: Yes, he is here. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you published I think two years before, about our New Vrindaban. And you stated that it is a wonderful land, that... What is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) It is your remark. You have seen. Your representative went there and saw it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In October '74. Interviewer: Yes. Along with photographs. Prabhupāda: In big, whole page article. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) published a series of four, three articles and last year's Janmāṣṭamī. This review from Mr. Baradraj... Prabhupāda: We are giving cow protection in the country where they are eaten by the people. Their staple food, beef, and they are accepting this movement, giving cow protection. Interviewer: Which are those areas? Prabhupāda: West Virginia, Philadelphia, New Orleans, and where? Miami, Canada, Vancouver. Like that. Interviewer: So if you don't mind, what is bad about eating, people who are eating beef? What is bad about it? Prabhupāda: Bad means you become bad. That's all. You can see these things are... Interviewer: But we can eat goat's meat, and other animal's meat. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And the thing is that cow is especially recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. That you must produce enough food grains by agriculture and give protection to the cows. That means if you have got enough food grains to eat and if you have got enough milk to get fatty substance, then your whole economic question is solved. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. If you get sufficient food there is no question of agitation. Everyone is satisfied. Animal and man. So you must produce. That is recommendation in the Bhagavad-gītā. Interviewer: Sir, in the modern technological... Prabhupāda: Modern, we are not talking of modern or... We're talking... Interviewer: In this age, how has the, you know, instrument of production because of this tractor, mechanization of agriculture. *Prabhupāda: So that is your interpretation. But we are trying to present Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. That is our mission. That you produce food grains sufficiently and give protection to the cows so that food grains and milk will give you all benefits of economic question. You'll be satisfied. That's all. Not only that, I have practically seen that by God's arrangement there are so much land on this planet that you can produce ten times food stuff of the whole population. But they are not doing that. They are utilizing land... Just like in Africa I have seen, enough land is there, but what they are doing? They are keeping some cows and bulls, and when they are grown up... They are not given anything to eat. There is enough grass. And as soon as they are fatty, they are taken to the slaughterhouse. Not for their own eating, but exporting. This business is going on. Similar business is going on in Australia and New Zealand. Unnecessarily they are killing these cows, and this shortage of foodstuff and shortage of milk, this is not good arrangement. The recommended process in the Bhagavad-gītā, that annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. If you have sufficient foodstuff, then everyone is satisfied. And it is the duty of the vaiśya class, kṛṣi go-rakṣya vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]; *go*-rakṣya vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. The, according to Bhagavad-gītā, this is the business of the vaiśyas. The brāhmaṇas, they should be very much highly educated, enligthened in spiritual knowledge. The kṣatriyas, they should govern, give protection. The vaiśyas, they should produce enough food. And those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya, śūdras, they can help. That's all. This is their.... Then everyone will be satisfied. The society will go on. Just like in your body you require brain, the head, you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. Similarly, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. That is essential. If you have simply brain and no leg then it is also useless. There must be brain and leg also. There must be brāhmaṇa, there must be śūdra, there must be.... Then the social arrangement is perfect. Interviewer: Would that mean that you support the ancient caste system? *Prabhupāda: Huh? It is not caste system. It is division of labor. It is not caste system. A class of men must be intelligent, a class of men must be strong to give protection. And a class of men must be to produce food, and a class of men, general worker. It is not caste system. Bhagavad*-gītā never says caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. According to quality and work. You have made it caste system. You have no qualification of a brāhmaṇa, you are calling, "I am brāhmaṇa." That is caste system. But if you have got the quality of a brāhmaṇa and you work as a brāhmaṇa, that is necessary. That is necessary. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Could we just take two minutes of your time? This is a review from Śrī Baradraj, Principle of Government College for Men, Chandigarh. He says, "Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is one of the great classics of India. This commentary is a significant contribution to the religious literature of this country. Many of the conflicting views on certain ślokas have been beautifully resolved by Swamiji. I congratulate the members of the Society for bringing out this wonderful work in such a lucid form. I shall be looking forward to the other publications." This is a review from Dr. Varsneya (?), senior professor and Head of Hindi Department, Dean and Curator of Arts, honorary librarian, Allahabad University, Allahabad. "Śrī A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda has really done a great service to Indian philosophy, religion and culture by translating Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam into English, with learned commentaries, and has thus provided source material to the Western world. Other philosophical and religious works published by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust also present a golden opportunity to the Western philosophers and scholars to drink deep at the celestial fountain of ancient Indian philosophy and spiritual wisdom." I'm just reading a few very quick ones. There's one from a leading professor in Chandigarh who you must be knowing. Dr. Jagadish Sharma, M.A., (indistinct) Delhi? He's from Punjab University. Author of nineteen books including Encyclopedia of India. So here is what Dr. Sharma says. "India's contribution towards the revivalism of the Hindu civilization culture by way of printing the Harvard Oriental Series was tremendous. But the work done by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is unsurpassable." He says it's even greater. "His Holiness has done a great service to the Indian culture by re-interpreting the concepts enshrined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. This edition of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will go a long way to help the scientists in rediscovering phenomena of the universe which is yet to be discovered. The printing and the get up of this book is excellent. The thoughts of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam radiate to anyone who sees it. This book helps to brighten the gloomy and dark clouds which are covered by the nuclear fear and apprehension of society." Prabhupāda: Where is that book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness? Some of my students, they are Ph.Ds in science. They have written this book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. And we are going to publish another book, Life Comes From Life. Interviewer: Sir, why don't you present us one set of... (laughter) Some part... Prabhupāda: Because this is our means of income. Kindly give us some contribution, you take as many... (laughter) Interviewer: I could only purchase one book. I cannot purchase four dozen books. Now you are here, I think you should present us one set so that we may read this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have a library here where everyone can come and read. Besides, five or six other, fifteen libraries in Chandigarh have all our books. You can visit either of those fifteen or the Hare Kṛṣṇa... (Guests talk at once) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Would any of you like to have any pictures of Guruji? or... (end) *Room Conversation-*-October 26, 1976, Våndävana Devotee: He asks how many pages. Yogānanda asks how many... Because they say that you sent a newsletter to all the GBCs. He asks how many pages was the newsletter. And I said just two lines. Prabhupāda: Newspaper? Hari-śauri: Newsletter to the GBC. Prabhupāda: What is that newsletter? Hari-śauri: You said, "Please be informed that Nitāi has become a venomous serpent." Prabhupāda: So this has been sent? (laughs) Hari-śauri: Yes, to the GBC. Devotee: Yogānanda asked how many pages, when he heard about the newsletter. He thought that you spoke so long about that. And I just said, "Just two lines." But they never asked me what the letter said. Prabhupāda: Yes, two lines is sufficient. Dhanañjaya: Punar muṣaka bhava. Punar muṣaka bhava. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is exactly the same case. Punar muṣaka bhava, you know the whole story? A muṣaka, a mouse, was made a tiger, and the tiger wanted to eat the saintly person who made him. First of all he was mouse. So he came to the saintly person. "Sir, I am troubled. Give me some benediction." "What do you want?" "Now, the cat always chases." "All right, you become cat so that you'll not be attacked." Then after some time he came. "I am being chased by the dog." "All right, you become a dog." From cat to dog, from mouse to... Then again he came. "Still, they are chasing me. Fox." And then in this way, and ultimately he made a tiger. And after becoming a tiger, he began to look, staring on the... "What do you mean by this?" "I shall eat you." "Oh? You become again a mouse." (laughter) Again he became mouse. That's all. Hari-śauri: The perfect example. Devotee: Now he looks like dirty. You know, like brown. The dhotī's not white. It's like brownish. Prabhupāda: He harassed. "He has not increased my..." Hearing and hearing, he wants to go. So why not, if he found some real disciplic succession, some bābājī, why he did not remain there? He is criticizing that our is not in the proper succession. So why he did not remain where he found the proper succession? Why he's sometimes in Vṛndāvana, sometimes Delhi, sometimes here. Why he is loitering? Crazy. Unfortunate. Unnecessarily picking out some trouble. Hari-śauri: Faultfinding. Prabhupāda: The bābājīs, they are against anything preaching. They are very, very much against preaching. So I am preaching. Bābājīs, the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, and all of them, their idea is that I am ruining this bhajana and Hindu dharma. This is the propaganda. What I am writing, they are all wrong. And they are making... And they try to poison my disciples as far as possible so that the whole institution may be poisoned and break. This is their propaganda. Hari-śauri: That was one thing that Nitāi put in his letter, that the teachings of ISKCON are completely opposite or contradictory to what is actually in the śāstra. Prabhupāda: Now he has become tiger. He wants to kill that philosophy. When he did not know anything he came to us. Now he has become learned, he wants to criticize. The same philosophy. "You have made me tiger, now I can see you are my eatable." (laughs) He could not find out any other eatable. "I shall eat you." The rascal. What can be done? (end) *Room Conversation-*-October 31, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...I want to do something in India. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, if you can arrange. Now I am purchasing car, I have given money to Gargamuni... Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: So one car here in Delhi side, one in Calcutta side, one in (indistinct) for my going. And he is a good driver, he will drive. Eh? I do not know but he said. (laughter) Hari-śauri: I don't know about in India, different thing altogether. Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta is also a good driver. Haṁsadūta: I am good for nothing. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Driver we'll get, there is no... So I want to preach little in the village. For that purpose in the big bus like that, we shall go with our tents, and we camp in a place where there is water, and begin our preaching. And Hindi book we are getting. In this way let me try in India, in the village, not in the city. Devotee: Oh yes. Haṁsadūta: For us there is no problem Prabhupāda, but it may be difficult for your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: No what is difficult? (laughter) But I want to do something for India in the village. So that I... That, we are getting lands, making one center, we can go here and there, not continually. Suppose here is a center, we go sometimes this side, sometimes this side, sometimes come back again. Haṁsadūta: Um hm. Hari-śauri: Find one good camping spot. Prabhupāda: Yes. You go early in the morning and do something. If it is favorable... Just like in Bengal they are doing. (They get) good reception. You have heard it? Haṁsadūta: Yes, I heard. Prabhupāda: Very good reception. Haṁsadūta: Villagers give the best reception. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: Because they're... Prabhupāda: Still. Haṁsadūta: They're still faithful to culture. Hari-śauri: Unless we get the farm, this farming scheme set up within the next... Prabhupāda: We are getting so many. Hari-śauri: We're getting the farms but we haven't got the management so... Prabhupāda: Management that is in your hands. You have to... Who will give you management? You have to manage local, local men. Bon Mahārāja was failure that he could not get the local men. But I did not try to bring men from India and preach in England or America. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: How is it possible? The British Empire was established on management. They did not bring men from England. Few managers, that's all. That is called management. One man can control hundreds and thousands of men, that is management. (long pause) Locally attracted. These Britishers came here and they introduced this zamindari system. Haṁsadūta: The what? Prabhupāda: Zamindari system. Haṁsadūta: Zamindar. Prabhupāda: Landlord. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: So any third class man, if he's given some land, naturally he will be very much pleased. They created that aristocracy. So he selected some men that you give me four annas per bigha and what ever you can collect that is your... That is the old system in India, zamindari system. So collector, collector, the local collector, he appointed somebody. They used to give one lease, that you give government four annas per bigha, and whatever you can collect, that is your business. So that created an aristocratic society and they all supported Britishers, because they're obliged. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly in business also, they appointed brokers, that I am bringing cloth from Manchester and if you can sell you'll get so much commission. So without any investment... Haṁsadūta: They were in business. Prabhupāda: A broker club business. So the businessmen, the zamindars, and gradually they started their factories, railways, in this way they started. And they are big politicians, so it is their management. And they failed when things were mismanaged. First of all they created friendship, and later on when they were in power, they created enmity. Then it is failed. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: First of all friendship, and that established them. And then they began to create enmity. Hindus against Muslim, Muslim... They wanted to stay. When they forgot this idea that if they wanted to stay for the benefit of the people, nobody could drive them away. But their policy was for the benefit of the English people. Therefore they failed. Lord Curzon, he says a statement that, "If you want to stay in India, rule India for the benefit of Indian people. You can keep control over India. They are fond of kings, so one member of the royal family can become king here and they'll earn respect and honor (from) these Indian people. But rule for their benefit. Then British Empire will stay." Very good advice, but his advice was not taken. You have seen Lord Curzon's statue near the, in front of the Victoria Memorial Hall? Haṁsadūta: Hm. *Prabhupāda: He was a very good governor*-general. Many gentlemen came, they wrote very conscientiously and the last one, that rascal Chelmsford (chuckles), he created havoc. Hari-śauri: Hm. Prabhupāda: I saw in London... Near London there is a village, Chelmsford, and he is Lord Chelmsford. We thought Chelmsford, the big state. (laughter) We were under the impression, Thames River is four times bigger than Ganges and (laughter) it is a canal. When I saw it, it is nothing but a canal. But they advertise this river, very big river. And underneath the water, men are going, and upper and wonderful. Big Ben, that Big Ben advertisement. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Parliament. All photograph (laughter) actually. Downing Street, 10 Downing Street, Prime Minister's office and so on. And actually it's all (chuckles) no importance. Parliament, big, big advertisement. People are still going, they are paying fees to see. Hari-śauri: Hm. Prabhupāda: Now that is their income. Hari-śauri: Yeah, tourism is their big source of income, now. Prabhupāda: It is always cloudy; people are going to see the West Minister Abbey and Parliament. Haṁsadūta: The whole tourist industry runs on propaganda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: When you get there, there is nothing to see. Prabhupāda: In Parliament they have got old records bound up, almirah. You have seen? What it will do now? Speech of such and such person, speech of... (long pause) What they... Why this water is? Hari-śauri: Well they are watering the garden. Prabhupāda: Hm. Hari-śauri: Were you thinking of any particular time, when you wanted to do this village program? Prabhupāda: Hm. I have no where experience. Hari-śauri: Haṁsadūta Mahārāja has traveled around... Haṁsadūta: You can do it from here even. You can start track from Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: I think some car has come? Akṣayānanda: Maybe that's Bhīma, I'll check. Prabhupāda: Hm. Hari-śauri: Maybe you could do it from Bengal, from Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Hm. Hari-śauri: Do the villages there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Because... Haṁsadūta: Here the weather is already getting cold. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: And in Hyderabad the peoples don't speak Hindi, that's where I'm coming from. Hari-śauri: Bengal seems like the best place, because right now at least the weather is really nice. And Gargamuni's men have a lot of experience there, Satadhanya and Jayapatāka. They know all the villages. Could do some good programs. Prabhupāda: This blood pressure is troubling. [break] They are chanting, "Say Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) They're taking, "Mind control." Haṁsadūta: Yeah, mind control. Prabhupāda: Ordinarily they cannot charge anything, mind control brainwashing, subtle thing. Just like I, "I am sick." "How you are feeling?" "I am feeling some pain." (indistinct) Who is going to see? (laughter) Who can say? It is like that. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: If you say that, I am feeling some pain in this brain or in there, who is going to see? Haṁsadūta: Yeah, who can prove it? Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to believe me, that's all. Haṁsadūta: I noticed in several of the articles though, they mentioned that this District Attorney is now going to expand his investigation to see where the money goes. This is what they're really interested in. And when they see... What will happen is, when they see that some of the devotees collecting three, four hundred dollars on the street, then they will print this in the newspaper and in this way... Prabhupāda: But they collect money by selling book. Haṁsadūta: I know but people don't understand this. They simply see that, "Oh, these are astronomical sums of money being collected. So what is being done with this money by people who are just chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? What do they do with it?" Then, "Oh, they have bought this big building in New York, they are doing spending money like this, like that." Ultimately this is what it always come to, money. They want to see what is happening with the money. Prabhupāda: And similarly here also, "Where they are getting money?" Haṁsadūta: Yeah, because wherever there is money transaction, the government wants to take some. They feel, "Well, we should have some of this money for ourselves, also." Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: So this may be a problem in this case. The thing about brain washing is not at all important. The important thing is if they look into our financial... Prabhupāda: That is our BBT trust... Haṁsadūta: Activities. Prabhupāda: That by the sales of, sales proceeds, we 50% printing expansion, temples. Haṁsadūta: Hm. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is religion. That is clearly written there. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So how they can check it? We are selling books. Haṁsadūta: I don't think that in, in the end they will not be able to do anything but for some time they can give us some trouble, harass us. Prabhupāda: So we have got already experience what is to be done, suggest. Haṁsadūta: Well, we have to make a presentation of our movement properly, just like Tamāla suggested in the letter. Prominent persons, they have to speak on our behalf. And of course, the books must be in order. Prabhupāda: Another thing, that all the Indians in Europe and America, they should sign that this Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Movement is genuine religious. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Similarly here also, all the Kṛṣṇa conscious persons especially here in Vṛndāvana, all the goswamis, they should be approached that this is the genuine Indian culture. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Hari-śauri: Perhaps we could even get statement from some of the favorable Indian ministers in the government? Just like this Home Minister and Tarun Kanti Ghosh in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: That would be very weighty. Prabhupāda: Yes. So do like that, that this is genuine, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine, cultural and religious movement. This should be taken from all prominent persons and sent there. And the copies of the standing order for all the universities. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Hari-śauri: The order forms. *Prabhupāda: Original orders, that should be copied and sent. This arrangement, ask them all over India and beside that we have recently got a testimony of one University authorities, just like one Goswami from Calcutta University and many others they have got. These copies should be sent immediately. We can approach even the chief justice of Allahabad high*-court, he came here, the minister here, the governor of Punjab, he came to see me, the governor... Hari-śauri: Andhra Pradesh government also. Prabhupāda: Eh? Andhra Pradesh, chief minister. Hari-śauri: Immediately (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Minister, Vṛndāvana. Collect all these and send it that this is a genuine movement because it is great cultural movement. Therefore, Swami Bhaktivedanta wanted to give it to Europe who are in the darkness. So anyway, now they are feeling the action of the medicine. Haṁsadūta: (laughs) Yeah. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) So many big, big sign boards, "Kṛṣṇa is coming." "Here is Kṛṣṇa." (sounds of pages being turned) "Here is Kṛṣṇa." Hari-śauri: Yeah, every heading has a "Kṛṣṇa" written. Prabhupāda: "Here is Kṛṣṇa." That I... That is our trap. Haṁsadūta: Yes, the subject matter... Prabhupāda: That will, that will help us in selling Kṛṣṇa Books. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: "What is this nonsense Kṛṣṇa, let us see." It is not in our disfavor, it is in favor. (chuckles) But still we have to defend. So as I suggested you collect. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: And from Vṛndāvana you can have signature from anyone. Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hm. All the Gosvāmīs. Hari-śauri: That Atul Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Atul Kṛṣṇa, yes. Anyone will sign for Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is genuine India cultural religious movement. They have got doubt: "Whether it is bona fide religion?" Yes it is. Hari-śauri: Well, you see the process of chanting, it is not common practice and they think it is a kind of inducement. Prabhupāda: It is kind of brainwash process. Haṁsadūta: It is. Prabhupāda: Brainwash? No, it is heart wash. (laughter) We can send this, "It is not brainwash," that "it is heartwash." Of course brain and heart practically same. Haṁsadūta: Mm. (pause) Prabhupāda: Our temple, where many people come. Our Māyāpura temple, Hyderabad temple, it is not only in Europe or America, in India in our temples, south India. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: It is genuine religious cult. You have to send all these people. Now note down and do all these things and send it. I can suggest. (noise in background) Haṁsadūta: It is disturbing. Prabhupāda: There is some commotion all over there. [break] ...our child is lost altogether... Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: But there (indistinct) who go (indistinct) they're not lost. Haṁsadūta: No, no. Prabhupāda: They come back again. But here (chuckles) Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement, one who comes, he'll be lost. (laughs) Haṁsadūta: Brainwashed. Prabhupāda: There is no hope of their coming. And Gargamuni's father tried so much to get him back. Then he became hopeless. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He was pet child of his father and mother and practically they closed their factory and everything. They become, they divorced and (indistinct). Haṁsadūta: Collapse. Prabhupāda: Collapse. I sent Gargamuni, go and... Haṁsadūta: I remember he went home for sometime. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: To try get into that business. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: He was detected though because he wouldn't eat meat. (chuckles) Prabhupāda: No. He tried his best, his father. Then his father (accepted), "This child is lost." Haṁsadūta: This term brainwash, it comes from the Korean war and the Vietnamese war. They would, if they would capture a prisoner especially if he was an officer, high ranking officer, they had some methods of what they say brainwash to turn his mind so that he would accept the enemy view point. And as this happened to a person it was considered to be very, very... Hari-śauri: Great victory for the enemy. Haṁsadūta: Great victory for the enemy. Just like because a high ranking officer in the army was captured by the enemy, then they would brainwash him. They had this, some process... Prabhupāda: In Pakistani they kill all brain, in Bangladesh. Anyone who worked in high profession like businessman, they caught shut down. It was worse to kill. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because everywhere the big men they guide the nation. Haṁsadūta: Yes. People are very much afraid of this idea of being brainwashed. Hari-śauri: They think that their minds can be changed without them knowing about it, so it scares them. Prabhupāda: For me it is better to remain in Vṛndāvana or die. (laughter) Hm. Because they may be very envious, "Here is the man who is behind all this." (laughter) Haṁsadūta: Yes. In Germany, this one man he wrote that this movement is very dangerous, because these boys and girls who have come to this movement, they completely, they make themselves completely subservient to the dictation of one man. Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: What ever the man will say, they will do. Prabhupāda: Charmistic? What is called? Charmistic Guru? He has said Dr. ... Hari-śauri: Charismatic. Prabhupāda: Charismatic. (laughs) Yes, what is that charismatic? Haṁsadūta: Charisma means a person who has a very strong attraction, he attracts. Prabhupāda: He has said, actually our whole movement is going on on this. Everyone is carrying the charismatic, (laughs) all. Hari-śauri: Yeah, they know there's something different about our movement, I mean from any other. Everybody who sees the devotees for the first time, they immediately know these people are completely different from anyone else. Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir, yathā deve tathā gurau [ŚU 6.23], this is the Vedic principle of our movement. Yasya deve parā bhaktir, yathā deve tathā gurau. Haṁsadūta: Have faith. Prabhupāda: To respect and love the spiritual master as God. Therefore it is brainwash. Haṁsadūta: This is the strength of our movement, faith in the guru and śāstra. Prabhupāda: And everyone is writing, let them write that. So they see that, "Why this one man is so respectfully accepted, it is brainwash." Hari-śauri: Hm. Prabhupāda: They may sometimes give me trouble. Haṁsadūta: Yes, generally it happens like that. If someone becomes very prominent, then they want to remove him. This is the tendency in the world. Hari-śauri: Yeah, because the demons, they think anyone who will allow themselves to become the servant of someone else, then they think he has got very weak character. Then they accuse the person who is in charge of manipulating that person. Prabhupāda: Just like there are so many men now, they are against this Sai Baba. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Sai Baba is actually doing that brainwash. But they don't think of... [break] Haṁsadūta: Yes, because people cannot discriminate. They have no power to discriminate. They group us with all these other bogus people. Prabhupāda: But that happened when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was being praised by the Nawab. They were asking about Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "What is the position of this man that so many people are following him?" So, Sanātana Goswami, who was very bright, took it as a warning and asked Caitanya Mahāprabhu that you leave this place as soon as possible. Haṁsadūta: Hm. Prabhupāda: So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was not afraid, but He, as usual, He left that place. But Sanātana Goswami, at that time minister... Haṁsadūta: He could understand. Prabhupāda: He took advice, the Nawab was so serious about Him. A Mohammedan may do something. So he said, "It is not good to stay here. You should go away." They decided that we shall go now with Him but in the meantime let Him go. Because there were parts of India, Mohammedan influence, especially Bengal was Mohammedan kingdom. So this was warning. Then he told the Nawab that, "He is a beggar. Why do you think of him as serious man? He is beggar. Some people follow him, not many." So he said. "Don't try to mislead me. I know. He's not beggar, He's God. Otherwise how so many people are following Him?" The Nawab he said that. Haṁsadūta: Huh. Prabhupāda: "He's not ordinary man. Don't say that He's beggar,' he said. (laughs) Nobody follows a beggar like that, that is it. After all he was king, he had some brain. (laughs) So he wanted to brainwash, "Don't think of Him very seriously. A beggar. Some people, sentimental." "No, don't say like that. A beggar is never followed by so many men." Haṁsadūta: The same thing happened to Jesus. Because so many people would follow him the government became very... Prabhupāda: Yes. That what do you call it? Crucified? Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He was becoming very popular. So... Haṁsadūta: And at least according to Bible, it appeared that the Jewish priests, they went to the governor or the chief man at that time, and they demanded that he has to do something about this man. Prabhupāda: They have proposed it. That Houston politician, "It is spreading like epidemic." Hm? Come. "It is spreading like epidemic. Something must be done." Otherwise one day they'll capture our government." That's a fact. If so many young men join this movement, they will vote. Because your country is democratic. (conchshell blows) Do this what I suggested. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. You see them... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) [break] "What is this pressure?" "Sir is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (laughter) And very bad." Some day somebody says, "No it is good." (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa pressure. Haṁsadūta: That pressure is being felt. *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Otherwise who cares for whom? There are so many things. Here also, they are feeling the pressure, the so*-called swamis, yogis, Gosvāmīs, religious groups, Māyāvādīs... Hari-śauri: Communists. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: Communists, too. Prabhupāda: Communists. That is our success. Everyone is now feeling the pressure. (Bengali) and they are talking (Bengali). In such a short time, so much money, so much expansion, so many devotees, what is this? That is Kṛṣṇa. Haṁsadūta: Like Vāmanadeva expanded His foot and He covered the... Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Haṁsadūta: First people thought, "Oh these are crazy fellows," and now suddenly they are everywhere. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Almost all of them, doctor, who have spoken. You have read that? Haṁsadūta: Yes, I have read. All respectable. Prabhupāda: Indian and American, all learned scholars, they have spoken. Where is that statement? And Doctor Saligram, he has spoken very nice. Where is that? Doctor Saligram, Indian Professor, anthropology or something like that. So now better to see the movement from behind, who is that man behind it? (laughter) Haṁsadūta: Now they're looking for you. Prabhupāda: That British government said, "Gandhi in jail is more dangerous than he is free." (laughter) Hari-śauri: These are the statements. Prabhupāda: Hm. Dr. Saligram? Hari-śauri: Yeah, Dr. Saligram Sukla. Prabhupāda: Hm. Hari-śauri: Education: he graduated from the University of Cambridge and a B.A. in classical languages 1962. Graduated from Cornell University, Ithaca, New York in Tibetan linguists and he has a Ph.D. in linguistics. Prabhupāda: Cambridge? *Hari-śauri: He has several, he has several books out. He was born in India in a traditional brāhmaṇa family, he learned Sanskrit at the age of 10, and his knowledge of the Hindu scriptures written in Sanskrit is very profound. He has committed to memory the entire Bhagavad*-Gītā scripture and one fourth of the Ṛg Veda. He himself is a worshiper of Kṛṣṇa. His teachings is a way of life and he is extremely competent to judge whether the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is authentic and bona fide. Devotee (2): He came to see you in Washington. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Hari-śauri: So this is his statement. There are 18 chapters in Bhagavad*-gītā, 18 thousand verses in the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam and several hundred verses in the Upaniṣads. These are the literary works which form the foundation of Indian culture and religion. They are all in Sanskrit. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement has transcribed these texts, has translated them, and has explained their essence in English. From Sanskrit into English. One is an ancient classical language and the other a foreign language, a difficult task indeed. I have state... [break] *Prabhupāda: Brahman means unlimited happiness. Ananta brahma*-saukyam ananta suddhyed sattvam yasmād suddhyed satya. You purify your existence and you are hankering after happiness, you get the unlimited, greatest happiness, yasmād brahma-saukyam anantam. Hm. Hari-śauri: So Dr. Allen Gerson says, "I am here today as a citizen who dislikes injustice, as a person who's own people, because of their religious beliefs, are being persecuted repeatedly, and as a scientist who knows how ignorance can turn the normal rationality of people into blind hatred." (aside:) He's Jewish. "As a citizen I can see a great injustice perpetrated here. Several people, all of legal age, have chosen a lifestyle which, because it differs in form from our lifestyle, has been viewed by their families as unacceptable. These families with honest but misguided intentions have had their children removed from the Hare Kṛṣṇa Temple and have attempted to reprogram them to the behavior and attitudes of society at large. The reprogramming obviously did not work and their children returned to the movement, thus angering and frustrating their parents. Not being able to understand the wishes of their children, or their behavior, or their motivation for returning, and needing to blame someone they effected through devious means to have 2 members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa..." Prabhupāda: He has used very nice strong words. *Hari-śauri: Hm. "They effected through devious means to have 2 members of the New York Hare Kṛṣṇa centers to be arrested. Therein lies the infection(?) of the injustice. To compound it, a judge and a grand jury agreed with their charges of unlawful imprisonment and brainwashing, a charge which is unheard of to my knowledge in civil legal proceedings, and ordered the devotees to be jailed. As a citizen I am appalled by the over*-reaction, the lack of understanding, and the hate that finds wrongdoing, not only by the people that make the charges but by the court as well." Haṁsadūta: He says the same thing. Prabhupāda: Hm? Haṁsadūta: That this charge is unheard of in the legal history, brainwashing, and what was it? Brainwashing what? Hari-śauri: Brainwashing. Haṁsadūta: That there was never such a charge in the history of law, someone who's been brainwashed. Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "As a person who's own people have been persecuted for their own beliefs I can sympathize with any..." Prabhupāda: You can charge anyone, brainwashing. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Hari-śauri: That means anybody who is doing anything is being brainwashed. (indistinct) brainwashing. (continues reading) "The fault of this religion differs from our..." Prabhupāda: Mind control. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: These are charges? (laughter) I'm controlling your mind charges. No you are controlling mine. These are the charges. (chuckles) He's controlling his mind. (laughter) Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "The fault of this religion differs from our western thought. Throughout history the group tried to find God through beliefs other than those which were held by the majority, and if those beliefs were very different from the majority's, such beliefs were almost always..." Prabhupāda: (indistinct)...their arguments so strong. Devotee: (indistinct) ...debaters. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Yeah, and their theories were that because... Because they are, they have accepted your Divine Grace as the absolute authority, that they will do anything that you say and therefore these people are very dangerous. They don't care for anything. They're not interested in the normal standards and goals... Prabhupāda: Charmistic, charmistic, what is that? Haṁsadūta: Charismatic. Hari-śauri: Charismatic. Haṁsadūta: Charismatic. There is, they usually use this word to describe a person who attracts people, but no one can understand why. Prabhupāda: Therefore they cannot explain, brainwash, mind control, charismatic, like that they use. Hari-śauri: Yeah, he says that here, because of their own ignorance then they find fault. He goes on: "From this misunderstanding came fear then hatred and from hatred grew injustices and often atrocities. An injustice is now being perpetrated through ignorance. Are atrocities far off? This may sound like an overstatement, but for those who say, 'It can't happen here,' it already has, such as to the American Indians and to our people (of) Japanese descendant. The time to stop such action is at the beginning, now. The way to stop it is to replace ignorance with knowledge, and hatred with understanding. Sometimes people stand off at a distance and look at another person's belief and laugh at them or fear them. But as they get closer, they may come to understand how similar the observer's beliefs may be to their own beliefs. As a scientist, a psychologist, I have tried to learn about and understand the Hare Kṛṣṇa people. For nearly a year I have spent hours each week, talking with, reading about, and testing members of the movement. I have been to their temples in this country and in Europe. I have eaten in their homes and I have been to their children's schools. What I have found is a group of people trying to find God and live as closely to the way that He would like them to live. There is no place in their lives for immorality, for cruelty to other people or animals, for artificial stimulants or harmful chemicals such as alcohol, drugs, or tobacco. At first glance their approach to God may seem alien to us with their different dress, the incense, and the many statues and their unique ceremonies, but a closer look reveals similarities to our religious practices that are just the same. In Catholicism we find the holy water, chanting on the rosary, statues of saints and incense. And in Judaism we find the blowing of the shofar." Prabhupāda: And they say, the cow's urine, they are forcing to eat. (laughter) (Bengali) ...that they are forcing the devotees to drink cow's urine. (laughter) These are the charges: brainwash, mind control, forcing cow's urine to drink. (laughter) How clever they are to find out some fictitious faults. Haṁsadūta: You see, you see they have, they put these 2 boys in a mental institution. Yes. When they can't... This is what happens in these countries. When they can't find any legal point, they can put the person into a mental institution to be examined. The premise is that if we find that a person is drinking cow's urine, we may think he must be crazy, because we have never heard of such a thing. So in this way they can... Devotee (2): Commit them. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, they commit them... Devotee (2): Forcibly they just put them into a mental institution where they're observed. *Hari-śauri: Where they... That observation, so*-called observation means that they give them all kinds of drugs which make them very dopey and then they influence them to try to become normal again, what they think is normal. Sometimes they give them electric shocks which ... Prabhupāda: In the lunatic asylum. Hari-śauri: Yeah, which leaves them in a very shocked condition and then they, what they call reprogram them. That means they brainwash them back into another way, to another style of life, like that. Guest: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Hari-śauri: So it goes on, (continues reading) "In Judaism we find the blowing of the shofar, or ram's horn, and in the orthodox synagogue there is separation of men and women. Differences of dress are expressed amongst orthodox Jews and amongst various Christian orders. Our own Pilgrim ancestors differed in dress form the popish gentry of their time. I have studied and tested the Hare Kṛṣṇa people and have not found them to be weird or insane, only different form the mainstream. Like any other evangelical or proselytizing religion, their converts could only become converts if they choose to believe. For example, no one can drag a person to a Baptist Church and brainwash him into taking God into his heart, he has to want to accept willingly. No one is ever held against their will by the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. I have never seen it, nor have my colleagues ever seen it. In examining the various members of this religion, I have not found one who appears to be brainwashed or dopey like. In fact their mental health and normality astounds me. If you cannot accept Kṛṣṇa, God, they will sympathize with you and hope that you will eventually find Him and will wish you well as you go on your way. There have been devotees who have left the movement and have said negative things about it, but the sour grapes syndrome is not unusual for dropouts anyway. I wonder how many West Point dropouts vilify the Army, or how many Seminary drop outs leave and disdain their religion? After a rational person spends time with the Hare Kṛṣṇa people and learns to understand them, he could never believe them to be guilty of the charges which have been made here in New York recently." Prabhupāda: That's all right, positive. Hari-śauri: And then this is Dr. Stillson Judah. Prabhupāda: Hm. Hari-śauri: He's a graduate from University of Washington, majoring in oriental studies, graduate from University of California with a Ph.D in Sanskrit and Indian Languages, and he received an honorary degree from Chapman College, Southern California. And he has various posts as professor of history of religion. etc.... Prabhupāda: He has written about us, the big book. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Big book. Bring that, bring that book. After 5 years scrutinizingly studying, statistics, graphics, and he has put my picture in it. Haṁsadūta: Looks like your book. Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Hari-śauri: Dr. Stillson Judah says, "The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement and more formally the International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, ISKCON, is a western representation of an important Hindu sect, Vaisnavism." Prabhupāda: He says, "Important Hindu sect." How they can say whether it is a genuine? Important, not only genuine but important, Vaisnavism. *Hari-śauri: Hm. (continues reading) "...whose worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, in one of His many forms is one of the most important religions of India. The American devotees of ISKCON worship Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Being, the highest Personality of Godhead, whose worship according to the archaeological and epigraphic evidence, is pre*-Christian in origin, as found in India's early sacred texts, the Ṛg Veda, Atharva Veda, etc. The detailed history of Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is found in the religious text of the Bhāgavata Purāṇa, and the philosophical basis of the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement is found in India's most sacred book the Bhagavad-gītā. These sacred texts and others have been translated and commented upon by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda and are being studied today in many major universities across the United States. The particular form of Vaisnavism of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement dates from Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, one of India's saints born in 1486 A.D. in Nadia, India. His immediate followers organized this philosophy in a number of Sanskrit texts, and His religious practices such as chanting and dancing are most authentically represented in America by the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees according to this tradition. Lord Caitanya, worshiped as the last incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, initiated a disciplic succession. In the mid-19th century, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura appeared in this spiritual lineage. Soon afterwards, his son Bhaktisiddhānta, Sarasvatī became the spiritual master of India's Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, and his most prominent student was Śrīla Prabhupāda. It was at Bhaktisiddhānta's command that Śrīla Prabhupāda later came to America to bring the teachings and practices of Caitanya to the West. My study of these American devotees, which I have pursued since 1968, was published in my book, Hare Krishna and the Counter-culture, published by John Wiley and Sons in 1974, New York. The sociological data revealed through a detailed questionnaire and many hours of taped interviews, indicates that many of the devotees had been influenced by the hippie culture of the 1960's. However, after they joined the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, their lives became completely changed from a life of drugs, illicit sex, and violence to one of dedication to a spiritual discipline and morality and to helping others in their search for happiness. In this period of rapid social and cultural change..." Prabhupāda: This is the fact, in many cases. So many drunkards, so many violence... This is... (name witheld)? Haṁsadūta: (name witheld). Prabhupāda: Big drunkard. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: (name witheld). Hm. Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "In this period of rapid social and cultural change, this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is giving many of our youths new meaning to their lives without which many would have remained alienated, disenchanted, irresponsible citizens." This is a letter that was written by one devotee, Sravanananda Das, by his mother. Sravanananda is here in India. Should I read this? Prabhupāda: Can read it, yes. Hari-śauri: My son Daniel, Sravananda Das, entered the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement almost 5 years ago. The only request that he made of me and my husband was that we read about the Hare Kṛṣṇa philosophy and try to understand his new way of life. My husband and I have read everything we could find about the movement and the philosophy. We have visited the Hare Kṛṣṇa Centers in Philadelphia and New York frequently, always speaking to the devotees and having our questions answered. Evidently these youths feel a revulsion towards the sense gratification of forbidden permissive values of our society. When I see how happy the devotees are..." Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta, Haṁsadūta? Hari-śauri: Haṁsadūta? Prabhupāda: The Ceylon is educated and if they are receiving, why not open a branch? *Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "He recently returned home after almost 3 years in India. My husband and I could see the awareness and maturity in him gained from his experiences in working with the Indian people. He learned first*-hand about a different culture and it certainly has enriched his life. In our minds we can compare our son's life to the life of a Catholic monk or a religious Jew of the Hasidic sect. Do I think that my son is brainwashed? I can best answer this by answering the question, is our whole society not being brainwashed daily by the advertisement media? Liquor, smoking, pornographic movies and literature and which is worse? And what about the children who are being educated by the violence and killing on T.V.? I prefer that my son is devoting his life to the love of God and the service of humanity, a rare endeavor in this age. Since I know that my son has voluntarily chosen the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement to exercise these rights and that he can leave it whenever he wishes I cannot see how the term 'brainwashing' can be applicable to this movement. I sincerely believe from my contacts with many devotees that they are happy and have found fulfillment by loving and serving Lord Kṛṣṇa, God. This may not be my wish for my life but my son has chosen it for his, and I whole heartedly respect it." Guest: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. (Bengali conversation) (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 2, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: And they continually going on giving information, rocks and sand. Why do you take so much trouble of going to Mars and this? If your go.... It is already concluded that we shall give this because they are already under the impression that all other planets are vacant. The same thing after spending millions of dollars, they're giving the same verdict. So why do this business? Simply cheating. They're cheating their boss that "We are making research." The result of research is the same. They're silent now, this Mars excursion? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: What they'll say? There is nothing to say. They do not go and even they go, they take photograph from millions of miles. What is the value of these things? But people are accepting that "Oh, scientific research." Perhaps I am the only man in the world who is protesting. (laughs) Eh? Everyone is accepting, "Oh, it is scientific." *Hari*-Sauri: People are being duped now into believing that advancement means simply to research. Not to actually find out anything valuable, but just to do some research. They think that that's the whole thing, education is just to research. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the European, you don't get the result, go on researching and spoil the money. *Devotee (2): Kṛṣṇa has manufactured everything in such a complicated way, that their search is never*-ending. Prabhupāda: That article written by Svarūpa Dāmodara in the recent Back to Godhead. *Hari*-Sauri: That was not.... Oh, which one? Prabhupāda: The recent this. *Hari*-Sauri: The newest one? That was not by Svarūpa Dāmodara. That was by... Prabhupāda: You have got? *Hari*-Sauri: Dāmodara Dāsa and Jagjīvana. Prabhupāda: Oh, Svarūpa Dāmodara is different. Oh. Hari-śauri: This is more like a commentary than science, as it exists today. Prabhupāda: Hm. Hari-śauri: This is like a presentation of science. Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes, these article. (pause) That's all right. Hm. (end) *Room Conversationon New York court case-*-November 2, 1976, Vrindaban Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So a lot of these parents are saying that we should all be, we should be investigated. Now they are saying that we are not Hindus and they are saying that by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're thinking of the brain stops. Prabhupāda: Hm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So in New York the press is against us. But in Los Angeles it is going in our favor, he said (refers to report by Rāmeśvara). In Los Angeles they had kidnapped the best girl distributor. Now she has come back but ah... Prabhupāda: So these things will happen. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are, as soon as we become very important, our enemies, they will try to suppress us. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is what they are doing. Prabhupāda: So, that is natural. Even Kṛṣṇa was suppressed. Kṛṣṇa could not be suppressed but the attempt was there. Kamsa. So these things go on, still we have to work. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: If we work sincerely then we'll come out successful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So there are a few things... Prabhupāda: We should not be afraid. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara [Bg. 8.7]. Kṛṣṇa advised Arjuna that you fight, not that you shall not fight. We shall fight to the best of our... And this is good, they are feeling the pressure of this movement. Otherwise why they are going to take step? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they, these parents what they want to do, they want this to be declared illegal. Now they... Prabhupāda: They can, the children can also, those who are our children they can form an association. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But they cannot control us, our independence. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They should form. How the...? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But of course we want to defeat them... Prabhupāda: The parents, the parents cannot control their sons and daughters who is above eighteen. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We want to defeat these people legally because now it's a very big case and every paper in America is covering it. Every paper. Prabhupāda: That means they're feeling pressure. They're feeling pressure. Now we should take proper steps, that's all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They had a big press conference in which Prof. Sukla spoke up... Prabhupāda: Hm. He has written very nicely. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Rāmeśvara said he got up and he said "How can... You are insulting our religion..." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, better that the Indians should combine and they should bring a case against these people. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And then it will be alright. That this is, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine, and these people are trying to insult us. Bring a defamation case against these persons. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think the best thing is to mobilise all the Indians in America because every country... *Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already suggested, that they should take signature from all Indians that this is genuine Indian cultural movement and it a great fortune for Indians. They were bereft of their own culture and now we have got this culture again. The Ratha*-yātrā is going on, we are so much enlivened. In this way they should file petition. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like in England they would not let you do the Ratha*-yātrā, the Indians... Prabhupāda: Ah. This is discrimination against sect... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Against minority. Prabhupāda: Yes. Against minority. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And no government in the world wants to do that. Prabhupāda: It is against American constitution. So they should file immediately a case. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And America is very sensitive to... Prabhupāda: So you note down, you are simply hearing. Note down and inform them. Yes. Ah, it is being recorded, that's alright. So give them this direction. Combine the Indian community. In Toronto and in..., there are many thousands of Indians, New York, Canada, London. These are very important places. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we can do that. *Prabhupāda: Yes, many thousands and thousands of important Indians, very rich men there are. In London there are very rich Indians. They can form immediately a solid association. They should present that this Kṛṣṇa is our God. In every Indian home we observe Kṛṣṇa Janmāṣṭamī. Even though one does not follow Kṛṣṇa cult, still if he is Hindu he follows the Janmāṣṭamī. Inevitably, everywhere. So this Kṛṣṇa cult is genuine, Vedic, based on Bhagavad*-gītā which was spoken long, long years ago before any religion, any religious literature in the world. The Buddha literature or the Christian literature and Jewish literature, they cannot be counted more than two thousand years. A little more than that. But this Kṛṣṇa cult is coming, it is coming from, I have already explained in the introduction, it is coming from four hundred millions of years ago. But even from historically, it is five thousand years. Beyond all religious literature in the world. We have to present this case in the court. And let it be discussed thorough (indistinct), and see our books, compare any religious books with our these books. Present all the opinions of big, big professors how traditional Indian culture is there. You have to fight, organize (indistinct). Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. (repeats "Yes" every so often) *Prabhupāda: How they can defeat us? We have got so solid ground. How they can defeat, these rascals? We consider them simply rascals and fools. And we call them rascals and fools. What do they know of religion? What do they know of God? They know slaughterhouse and killing and illicit sex, and killing the fetus. That's all. What do they know? They are not even civilized. We have come to make them civilized. They should understand. They are not civilized. They do not (know) how to eat even. The first principle of life is eating. They do not know how to eat. We are teaching them how to eat. They simply challenge, that's... When men are uncivilized, they do not how to grow food, they kill animals in the jungle and eat. When they are civilized, they know how to grow food now and the nice food grains, fruit, flowers, now why should say, "You eat the meat." The meat*-eating is meant for the most uncivilized persons. That means they do not know even how to eat. They do not know how to eat. How to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex. Nothing. They're having sex like cats and dogs. No marriage, girl's friend, boy's friend, and then illegitimate... So many things. They should be exposed. And there is no harm exposing, in truth. Simply by manufacturing, constructing a big, high skyscraper building, does it mean he is civilized? It is passionate work. They can take credit of a good mistri, just like so many mistris, they construct. I cannot do. Does it mean I am less than him? I could not construct this temple. I have to call some low class, a builder and company, they constructed. Does it meant he is higher in intelligence than me? They are giving credit, "Oh, now they have constructed skyscraper building. They have constructed motorcar, horseless carriage." They are taking credit on this. But this is not civilization. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has given the formula of civilization, three words: matṛvat para dāreṣu. Where is that civilization? To consider every woman as mother. Except one's own married wife, all women, mother. Where is that civilization? That should be, otherwise there cannot be social regulation. Matṛvat para dāreṣu para dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, other's property is just like garbage in the street. Nobody touches the garbage. That is civilization. So Mr. Pillay... [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...got to do. He wants members of parliament to give... Prabhupāda: Hm. That we have already suggested. Immediately. Every member of... If Mr. ... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Krishna Modi. Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda (Reddy), he suggested that this movement should be spread all over the world. Let him write. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He won't give it in... Prabhupāda: No. That is his insincerity. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Frankly Śrīla Prabhupāda, no member of parliament will give it either. I know because even when Tejas was applying for his citizenship, Krishna Modi would not even give a letter of recommendation because he said this is a Congress Party policy. Prabhupāda: Then what can be done. Everything is nasty. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So this is what we'll do. We'll be starting a... Prabhupāda: You can give the names. There are so many members. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We are starting a petition here also. Prabhupāda: Not only petition. You can give the... Ask what is this (indistinct) this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And also... Prabhupāda: If there is... Now Brahmānanda has at least given this order that they should be given..., that they be allowed to stay two years. That letter is there. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I have that letter. That letter says they have come to study Vedic literature. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That letter is there. Also we have a lot of other letters from great... Prabhupāda: The Indians should send a petition to the government that "We want this movement here. We are separated from our culture. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami has brought this..." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They say mobilising the Indians in America... Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...and that's the most important thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a most important thing. That you cannot discriminate minority communities. That is against American constitution. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, when this, when we had a similar situation in Germany, what we wanted to do is have all our centers in important cities in foreign countries all over the world make a letter and a delegation to visit the United States embassy in all these places. This will have an effect because if it's brought, if it comes in this way, international reaction... Prabhupāda: Yes, arrange like this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can understand, Rāmeśvara suggested we send a big petition of telegrams to the American consulate. Because then American consulate will transmit these telegrams to the state department in Washington. We said that if our... We would pay for it but our life members will all sign if we send a telegram to the American... Prabhupāda: Hm, Dr. Saligram taken a leading part? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? Hari-śauri: Dr. Saligram Sukla. Prabhupāda: Saligram Sukla. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In America? Yes. Prabhupāda: He is a learned scholar and he is influential man in educational circles. There are many Indians you'll find, they are... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we can mobilise all the Indians, that's the best process. Prabhupāda: Yes, Indian opinion. I have already given suggestion. The Indians should come forward. And from here also, similar if the member... Respectable Indian businessmen they should say that this Kṛṣṇa cult is very, very old, genuine and we are so enlightened that Swami Bhaktivedanta has taken this movement to the foreign countries. We are so proud, like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We want to do that. Prabhupāda: And that is a fact. Everyone is feeling proud. Take all signature of the gosvāmīs here, influential, that this is genuine. Prove there, that it is genuine movement. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And we have letters from Swami Premananda and all the (indistinct) from Bombay, and sent all these to Rāmeśvara. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone should join. Now people are taking this cultural movement so seriously and if our Indian leaders sleep, that is not good. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, I have... One boy in Delhi went to the British Embassy High Commission, and saw a British paper and even in the British paper the American court case was covered. Headline was "Hare Kṛṣṇa..." I have the paper. Even in the British paper it had a prominent display. Haṁsadūta: Probably be in German papers too... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. In fact you would probably expect that... Prabhupāda: British paper. What does it say? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They were covering this court case. They had a nice prominent... Prabhupāda: No, no. They have taken it. Now, they are after intelligent person. They are... That has been expressed by this gentleman that it is going like epidemic. They must (indistinct). That is their feeling. That Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading so fast, like epidemic, we must take some steps. That is already, they have expressed their feeling. And you said that in Australia, there one man said... Hari-śauri: Yes, psychiatrist... Prabhupāda: ...that if the people take to this movement, then where you stand? (about Hari-śauri:) He has also expressed. What is that? *Hari-śauri: There's a psychiatrist (indistinct). Sydney city council are trying to have us banned from the city altogether and they took us to court and we didn't contest the case and they lost. And then afterwards they, they worked out they spent $10,000 and so much manpower to try and get rid of us and it didn't work. And one newspaper man went to a psychiatrist and he asked him, "Can you explain why this huge reaction against just a few people singing and dancing in the street? So he said, "Basically it's because the city*-dwellers feel very threatened by our simple lifestyle. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. So this whole western civilization is threatened. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are afraid of the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Their whole economic structure will fail. Theoretically, take it for granted that if people give up meat*-eating... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No smoking, no drinking. *Prabhupāda: Then whole civilization finished. Even theoretically taken, no smoking, no gambling, no intoxication, no illicit sex, their whole civilization is finished. Lord Zetland said... Not only that, one Sir Valentine Chiro (?), I think, Sir Valentine Chiro, British, important, when Gandhi started non*-cooperation. So he remarked that "If Gandhi's movement, this non-cooperation movement is one percent successful, then we will have to leave it." And actually that happened. Because they were ruling over India by Indian cooperation. Gandhi struck to the right point, non-cooperation, and he scented the danger, and he remarked at that time, that if one percent of the Indian people non-cooperate then we are, our British empire finished. So there are intelligent persons, they are thinking in their own way that this movement is so strong against this modern material civilization, if it is allowed to spread then our whole civilization, whole economic structure will be finished. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What they're doing now, these parents are getting in contact with devotees who have blooped, and they're getting these devotees to make statements against us. *Prabhupāda: Just see. They are living peacefully in a villa in Paris so happily that ah... Some, one gentleman came to see me "Swamiji, you are preaching against meat*-eating, this cannot be done in this country, then we will starve." I said "No, you will never starve. You take this formula." (laughs) So they are thinking like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And the most dangerous point is that young men are taking part. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The future of the country. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That means it will continue. Young men they take anything very seriously. So this movement is threatening the-what is called?*-the foundation of material civilization in the western countries. That's a fact. The foundation is threatened. Their whole foundation is this: meat-eating, illicit sex, gambling and intoxication. They have no other formula. Lord Zetland, when he was asking one of my godbrothers, that "Can you make me brāhmaṇa?" So "Yes, why not? You follow." He said "It is impossible for us. It is impossible for us. And we are no one(?)." That's a fact. If some percentage of the population, European and American population, take it seriously, then it will be dangerous for their government, their economic situation, that's a fact. That, our Sudāmā Vipra is saying that, theatrical... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sudāmā Swami is in New York. Hari-śauri: Sudāmā Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Ha! And whole situation is threatened. Caitanya Mahāprabhu movement. Have you seen that? Hari-śauri: That play. Prabhupāda: Play. Hari-śauri: Kali. Prabhupāda: Yes. The purport of the play is that this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is threatening to all the associates of pāpa. [break] *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He, Rāmeśvara told me last night, is completely against these so*-called religious movements like ours and he has written personal letters to the parents of all the people who have joined, all those who would write to him, that these types of movements should be stopped. Prabhupāda: The young men should form another party, all the American young men. Haṁsadūta: Viṣṇu party. Prabhupāda: Hm. Viṣṇu party. Yes. Now they should take in politics. Haṁsadūta: You wrote in your Eighth Canto, there are always two parties, the Viṣṇu party and the demons' party. Prabhupāda: Yes. If they're forming demons' party, let them... Haṁsadūta: Form a Viṣṇu party. Prabhupāda: That ah, the fight between the Viṣṇu party and the demon party is always going on. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well they could never stop it, I mean... they could just... *Prabhupāda: No. It is in the hands of the young men. It is not possible for them to stop it. If, had it been a sentiment of some retired, just like other thing, that Vivekananda's, all these old fools and rascals, they assemble and meditate. It is not that. They are active. It is not so*-called meditation, and snoring, (makes snoring sound) meditating! It is not that. I have seen, all these rascals go, yogis, they prescribe meditation, and meditation means sleeping and snoring, that's all. It is not that movement. We are sending in (indistinct), "Come, sell books." It is no question of meditation. Cheating himself and cheating others. What he will meditate and he requires so many primary rules and regulations before meditating, not that... In the Bhagavad-gītā before meditation it is clearly stated one should not close the eyes. As soon as you close the eyes and meditate, you will sleep. Immediately. They should be half closed and concentrate your eyesight on the top of the nose. That is meditation. Not that closing and snoring and huhuh. These rascals are going on. Who cares for the genuine thing? Nobody cares. Dharma (indistinct). That "I am your guru, I have followers," dharma principle, but he does not know this. This is going on. Neither the rascal guru knows neither his disciple knows. This is going on. Everywhere this is going on. All bluff. This very word used, adharma (indistinct), get a plan, "That I am (indistinct)." That's all. And have it, that's all, and do nothing, that's all. I do not know nothing but (indistinct), that's all. All these gurus all these chelas are doing that. This Anandamayi, Sai Baba, this, that, so many. What do they know? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is why these leaders are getting confused, so many bogus people are there. Prabhupāda: Yes. That should, action should be there. If we come out successful in this, how you say, messing, and that will be very good. It is called that, messing? Hari-śauri: Mixing. Haṁsadūta: Mixing. Prabhupāda: Not mixing. Hari-śauri: (indistinct) together. Prabhupāda: Messing, that what is called? Chaduni? What is called? Hari-śauri: Sifting? Prabhupāda: Sifting, yes. (coughing) It is called not messing also? Hm. Sifting high grains from the small. Devotees: Yes. Hm. Hm. Prabhupāda: The smaller grains they fall down. Haṁsadūta: Straining. Prabhupāda: Straining, yes, straining yes, straining. If the straining process no, that's nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we can get rid of all the bad publicity (indistinct). Every newspaper in America is covering us Rāmeśvara said. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) better, I was seeing that. And every page Kṛṣṇa. There is Kṛṣṇa. Every page, there is Kṛṣṇa. Similarly that happened in Germany. I told them. "It is very good that Hare Kṛṣṇa." Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughing) We are known as Kṛṣṇas. They call us Kṛṣṇas. You put yourselves "Kṛṣṇians." They are Christians and we are Kṛṣṇians. And actually from Kṛṣṇian, the Christian has come. Yes. Kṛṣṇa, ah, Kristo, there is Greek word and Kristo, is broken spelling of Kṛṣṇa. In India we say one is, one name say is Kṛṣṇa, at least in Bengali we say Kṛṣṭa. Kṛṣṭa. This Kṛṣṭa word is come Kṛṣṇa. And from Kṛṣṭa, Christ has come. This is original root, Kṛṣṇa. So we have to fight, here is a chance for fighting, so why they're afraid? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we just have to work hard on getting this altogether. *Prabhupāda: You have to fight. Keeping our principles strictly. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara [Bg. 8.7]. We should not be afraid to fight. And it is, there are Indians... It is not the Indians (indistinct). Now Indians and Americans should join for fighting on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be successful. How they can say it is not genuine movement. Other so*-called yogis swamis, they may be rascal but this is not the rascaldom. It is... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are saying, they are saying we are not Hindus. Prabhupāda: Hm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are saying this is not Hinduism. Prabhupāda: Hindus, we are Kṛṣṇian. It they, if... Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇans. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, in the dictionary it is said, that Hindu God but we are claiming, that Kṛṣṇian, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means "Godder than the Hindus." When you say we are not Hindu that we are not restricted with the Hindi community. That is the meaning. Because Kṛṣṇa says, "I am for everyone." So why should we be restricted to the Hindi community. Kṛṣṇa says sarva yoniṣu, "In all forms of life, I am the seed giving father." Why he should be simply Hindu? This point should be stressed. Sarva yoni means eighty four million..., eighty, eighty, eight million four hundred thousands, all forms. Kṛṣṇa is for all of them. We therefore, why Kṛṣṇa should be restricted to the Hindu community? Hindus are included but Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to Hindus. Kṛṣṇa's picture, that Bal Gopal. He's embracing the calves. Kṛṣṇa does not embrace only the gopīs, He's embracing the calves also. That is Kṛṣṇa. He's equal to everyone. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. Pāpa-yonayaḥ, so many low-grade forms of life, they're also His.... Devotees are part and parcel. Mamaivāṁśo jī... [Bg. 15.7]. Quote this: Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to the Hindu. We say, "We are not Hindu," means we are not.... We embrace everyone. We are not restricted to the Hindus. The so-called Christians, so-called Mohammedans, they.... We embrace everyone, and actually we are doing that. Why should we simply be compact within the limitation of Hindus. That is not our purpose. Then we would not have come to western countries. We actually spreading universal brotherhood. Kṛṣṇa is the father and everyone our brother. We are claiming, all our fallen brothers to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu (said) pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, this is our movement. Why you should be restricted, to the India, and amongst the Hindus. Our (indistinct) they asked that "Go, go," bhārata bhūmite, you have taken birth in India, that's alright, make your life successful and go abroad, para upakāra. Janma sārthaka kori koro para-upakāra. This is our mission. We have come to you to make you civilized. This is our mission. And the best men of your country they are recommending. All the learned circle, they are coming. How can you defy us? If you have got brain.... You are trying to brainwash. Actually you have no brain, (indistinct) how important it is, this movement. You are trying to brainwash. We are not brainwashing. We are giving you good brain. That is our mission. That you are so dull-headed we have come to give you good brain. Su-medhasaḥ. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. We have come to make you intelligent. Receive us well, for your benefit. Tell them like that. Bring one court case, and I shall sit, go and sleep there. And expose them. Item by item. I know my case is strong. Hari-śauri: It's the strongest. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Yes. I will speak. If you cannot speak I shall go and speak. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are a few Indians living in America who are right at the top of the American scientific research. There is one Dr. Khoranna, he won the Nobel prize, and there are a few others who are right at the top of the... Prabhupāda: Where he is, where he is? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All in America. They're at the top of the US space program. I think we should also approach these people who are... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Punjabis. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He won the Nobel prize. (indistinct) I just remembered that there are other Indians who are at the top of the US space program so if we approach them... Prabhupāda: Now our this Svarūpa Dāmodara and others, they can also come. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should approach all these people and get them to take part in the petition. *Prabhupāda: That Bhavan's Journal, he did not dare to publish my statement. Everyone is combined to kill Kṛṣṇa. Everyone, all over the world. God... "There is no God," the scientists, these philosophers, the politicians, everyone. This is the only movement talking of God. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādī. Everywhere, impersonalists and zero. There is no God. The zero*-vādīs, they are little frank but these rascals, nirviśeṣavādīs, God has no head, no tail, they are dangerous. Zero-vādīs, they call him zero, that's alright. That is, we can understand, they admit. But these rascals, zero, nirviśeṣavādīs, "Yes, there is God, but He has no head, he has no tail, he has no hand, he has no leg." Then what he has? They are greatest cheater. More dangerous than the śūnyavādīs. That is the version of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Vedinam mayima bhogda hoila nāstik, vedāśraya, nāstikavāda bhogda ki hodi. These Buddhists, they do not care for the Vedic injunction. We can understand. But these Śankarites they take shelter of the Vedas and they say, "There is no form of God." And that is being followed (by) the so-called Hindus. All the invitees in that meeting, Bajaj meeting, they are all nirviśeṣvādī. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Impersonalists. Prabhupāda: All impersonal. Jagadisa: That's why there may be an (indistinct) in getting Indian people to support our movement. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jagadisa: If there is any trouble in getting Indians... *Prabhupāda: No, we don't care for Indians and Europeans. We care for Kṛṣṇa, that's all. I didn't care for anyone. I simply care for Kṛṣṇa, that's all. And my Guru Mahārāja, that's all. I went to your country, not supported by Indians and Europeans. I went on the order of my Guru Mahārāja and under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa's protection, that's all. That is wanted. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. We want two favours. One from guru, one from Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We don't want anyone's favour. So you have to fight. You cannot fight (sic:) immaterious. Kṛṣṇa never said, "Arjuna, oh you are my devotee, you sit down and sleep, I shall take care of..." He never said that. (laughs) So if you take that position, we are devotees, non-violent, and let us sleep, that is not... Fight! With all the resources that we have got. That is wanted. (voices in background of Indian people) That you cannot stop. They are coming, going, how you can stop? People, public, they are coming, going. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They all want to come and have a look at the guest house. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. So prepare for fight. Don't be afraid. Arjuna, they were five brothers and the other party, one hundred brothers. Therefore Dhṛtarāṣṭra was confident, that "What are these five brothers without any help, we have ruined them. They were in the forest for thirteen years. Lost all connection, no kingdom. I have got government in hand, and my sons are, hundred sons, and we are well equipped. How? Therefore the... Bring that Bhagavad*-gītā, dṛṣṭvā tu pāṇḍavāṇīkam [Bg. 1.2]. Jagadisa: Dṛṣṭvā tu pāṇḍavāṇīkaṁ vyūḍhaṁ duryodhanas tadā [Bg. 1.2]. Prabhupāda: If someone wants to come, let him come. Aksayananda: Ācāryam... Prabhupāda: Why you have refused him? Let him come. Aksayananda: Ācāryam upasaṅgamya rājā vacanam abravīt [Bg. 1.2]. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the translation? Aksayananda: "Sañjaya said, 'Oh king after looking over the army gathered by the sons of Pāṇḍu, King Duryodhana went to his teacher and began to speak the following words.' " Prabhupāda: Aiye. [break] Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is to preach. So you join us. Why should you be limited within Vṛndāvana? The people are taking this, and there is... Now they are feeling the strength. The whole world is now combining against this movement. That means they are feeling the strength. Certainly it is (indistinct) credit. Guest: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Don't say certainly, you must come forward to fight. If you simply sit down in Vṛndāvana, then Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is not being carried. He says, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, that is His mission. So this (indistinct) in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, so why other parties, they should sit down and simply... I am a teeny person, single*-handed we shall fight. Why you should see the fun and do not fight? That I am asking you. I shall fight and you shall see the fun. Guest: No, no. Prabhupāda: What is this? Now, you appear to be educated gentlemen, you combine all the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava gosvāmīs, and come with me to fight because there is a world fight now. They are threatened. Their whole civilization is threatened by this movement. That is the position now. Whole Europe and America, they are combining. They are intelligent person, they see that this movement is spreading like epidemic. They have admitted, some of their (indistinct), "If this movement is allowed to advance, then some day they will take our government." They have expressed that feeling. And now they are preparing to fight out. These, all these fathers of these young men, they are combining together to charge me that I am kidnapping their boys. So it is a serious situation, you should not see simply the fun and claim to belong to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Now you should come out to fight. Am I wrong or right. Guest: You are right. *Prabhupāda: Then do that. Hold a meeting among the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas here, and I will explain the position. Now we should combine together and fight. As soon as you introduce something strong, there will be fight. There will be fight. Even Kṛṣṇa had to see the fight, Kurukṣetra. Dharmakṣetre kurukṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. The fight must be there, yuyutsavaḥ. So if you belong to Caitanya Mahāprabhu's party, then you should come out to fight. Whatever done is done, and it is done single*-handed. Nobody has helped me. Even not my god-brothers. These American boys, they have helped me. They understood the philosophy and they helped me. Rather, they are criticizing that I am making these American boys sannyāsī, and giving them sacred thread. They are criticizing. What is your opinion? Guest: I don't think that... Prabhupāda: They criticize me. They do not recognize this temple as a Vaiṣṇava temple, they say angrej temple. (laughter) Guest: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya*-nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. We are trying that. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. Why the pāpa-yonis should be neglected? So this thing have been done singlehanded, now you should come forward, all, combine together. (Hindi) There is a great fight. We are just planning how to fight. Simply (Hindi). Now when there is fight, it requires real strength. Now their fight is confronting us because they are feeling the strength. Their whole civilization is threatened. We are recommending no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling and no meat-eating. This is the basic principle of modern civilization. So the foundation is threatened. Theoretically they are taking that "If these four things are stopped then where is our civilization?" Where (do) we stand? Meat-eating, they have all over the world millions of slaughterhouse. So if these millions of slaughterhouse is stopped, then where they stand? They are threatened like that. *Guest: Their whole set*-up, their whole economy is... Prabhupāda: The millions of liquor manufacturers, breweries, millions of gambling houses, so, cigarette factories, so theoretically if this movement is successful then whole civilization is finished. So they are now looking... Because these young men have taken seriously so they are threatened and they are making a strong party to fight with us. They cannot safely say that (indistinct) this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement they are (indistinct) a charge against my movement or me that I am kidnapping young men. That is their (indistinct). I am not kidnapping, I am not going to their house to kidnap. They are coming to us. (Hindi) Guest: Mind control, brainwashing. *Prabhupāda: You should go to see Visvambhara Gosvāmī also. (Hindi) This is fortunate that you have come in this moment. So I'll give you this inspiration, now combine together all Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs. Kṛṣṇa cult is for everyone, either Gauḍīya or Rāmānuja or everyone. Now all of you should come forward. That you do. Admitting (Hindi conversation). They are concerned with the Kṛṣṇa cult. Kṛṣṇa cult means all the ācāryas, all the ācāryas, either Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka or anyone, they should combine together. (Hindi) (aside:) Why you are talking? It is not very important. It is for him. It is a very bad habit. (aside ends) So we should be very alert in this point. All the Vaiṣṇavas of different sampradāyas, especially Gauḍīya sampradāya, you should come forward to fight this. They are gathering their strength. We should gather our strength. Fight, Kṛṣṇa never said that "Don't fight." (He) never said (to) Arjuna that "You are My devotee, you don't fight. You are very good gentleman, nonviolent, and I shall do everything for you." (He) never said that. (indistinct) Kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samu.... viṣame samupasthitam. "Now there is a great dangerous fight, why you are saying like a nonsense," anārya*-juṣṭam, like non-Aryan. (Hindi conversation) This fight is another good news that they are feeling the strength. Otherwise they would not have prepared to fight. Formerly they were thinking that so many swamis and yogis come, come and go. But now they are feeling the strength, they (are) charging that their young men are being kidnapped. It is strong party. And these boys, they have taken to Vaiṣṇava principles, their parents have tried to take them back and induce them to eat meat and according.... They deny. This is also tried. I have got many disciples, they are coming out very rich family, rich father. So one of the fathers called his son that "I am old man, the business is dwindling, you come and take..." So I told him that "You go. Why not take your father's business and use it for Kṛṣṇa?" So he went, on my order. The father wanted him to eat meat. So he denied that "I cannot do that. I can help in your business, but I cannot accept your way of life. That is not possible." Then the father saw, "Then he is lost, useless. If he's not adopting our life..." So there, that one father, now the all fathers have combined that "Our children are now lost. They do not come home, what to speak of adopting again our way of life." They cannot accept the way of life, meat-eating and.... That is not possible. That they're finding dangerous. And other movement they join and they come back. They remain what they are. Simply they say that "I belong to this grouping." But our is different. Not only he belongs to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement but a different type of life. (reads something) Mm. Give it. They have taken (indistinct). There are many, many groups like that. Hari-śauri: This is New York. Prabhupāda: Chanting in the street. (Hindi) What do you want to do? Propose. Hold a meeting of all the gosvāmīs. You take the leading part. Go to Viśvanātha Gosvāmī, if you like he can go with you to see others, "This is the position, you come and join." What do they say? Guest: (indistinct) contacted them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately. Guest: How long you are staying here? Prabhupāda: I will stay if you hold immediately meeting in this temple. We have got enough space here. First of all you see some leading gosvāmī, and then you chalk out how to fight. All the (indistinct). Now it is question of Kṛṣṇa cult, it is not only Gauḍīya. So take gosvāmīs, some of you and meet all the leaders and hold a meeting, immediately... And explain the whole situation. Let us combine and those who are educated, they should go. We shall arrange for their all expenditure. It doesn't matter. Fight. This is a genuine cult. If you discriminate, that is discrimination against religion, cult. We are accepting everyone but it is a genuine cult. You also Christian, you accept anyone, why you say it is not genuine? That we have to prove. There the Hindus and Indians who are there, they will also join. So immediately hold a meeting. It is very serious situation. (Hindi) This is genuine movement. Why the American government should be discriminating against a genuine religious sect, Kṛṣṇa? Make this company. Prasāda, give him prasāda. Very serious (Hindi) Are you...? Go with him. We have got any car? Hari-śauri: Not right now, not at the present moment. Prabhupāda: Where our car has gone? Aksayananda: Bareilly, they have program in Bareilly. Prabhupāda: When? Aksayananda: Two days ago they went. Prabhupāda: No, when the program is? Aksayananda: Now it's going on. Prabhupāda: Going on. Aksayananda: Mm. Prabhupāda: When they will come back? Aksayananda: About one week, one and a half weeks. Prabhupāda: So we can ask them to come back. The car will be required both here and there. Aksayananda: OK. That's easy enough. Prabhupāda: Mm. Or any other car available? Hari-śauri: (indistinct) Krishna Chand. Aksayananda: No, he doesn't have one. Prabhupāda: No, Vis... (indistinct). *Hari-śauri: We have the motor*-cycle. Aksayananda: We can arrange elsewhere. Prabhupāda: Ha. So (Hindi). He will go with you, immediately. Meeting arrange (Hindi). Thank you very much. (pause) Combine together in Vṛndāvana. Fight! Without fight where is life? If there is no fighting then what is that life? That is dead stone. Fight must be there. Kṛṣṇa's whole life is fighting from the very birth. His father carried Him to Gokula where He (indistinct) and He fell down from the Yamunā and... Just born, fighting began. Just born. And at Yaśodāmayī's house, Nanda Mahārāja's house, so many demons daily coming, Śakaṭāsura, Aghāsura, Bakāsura, Pūtanā, so on, so on, so on. Ultimately Kaṁsa, when He was young boy. Vṛndāvana, so many asuras came. You have seen the pictures? Kṛṣṇa is fighting with the horse demon, with the bull, Dyutiman (?), fighting. If Kṛṣṇa is fighting, why not Kṛṣṇa consciousness the same thing. You cannot expect peaceful life. No, there must be fighting, then think "That is Kṛṣṇa's presence, His fight." So this fighting means they're feeling the presence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Otherwise why they're (indistinct) fight? Had it been an insignificant thing, there was no question of fighting. (Hindi) The gun, howitzer gun, what is that? German, some gun they will go from this part of, this side of English Channel to other. Calais, the other side Calais? Devotees: Calais. Prabhupāda: Calais in France. So from France to other side English Channel, London, that's all right. Guest: Artillery guns? Prabhupāda: Yes, they... Hitler invented. The gun will be fired from this side. Hari-śauri: Big, huge gun. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this gun is required not for killing a mosquito. (laughter) Big enemy. So they are preparing this big gun and not the mosquito and this Mahesh Yogi and this yogi. You see. They are mosquitoes. For them they don't require any gun. So for big enemy, big gun, you see. They are preparing big gun, that means Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is big enemy. It is not mosquito. So you remain a big enemy, you don't become a mosquito. That is wanted. Immediately arrange this meeting here. Call all the Vaiṣṇavas, all. (Hindi to end) *Room Conversation-*-November 3, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...and we don't smoke even. We don't spend a paisa even for sense gratification. Jagadīśa: They're squandering billions of dollars. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they, you spend money for cigarette, for cinema, for restaurant, unnecessarily. We don't spend a farthing even, for all this purpose. Simply we take little rice, cāpāṭi, that's all. And still, you are culprit? Hari-śauri: They, in the papers report that, that we spend very lavishly for the Deities, but for ourselves we eat only very simply. Prabhupāda: So is it not credit? We spend for God. We are servant of God. We want to see God gorgeously situated, and for us we have no comforts, we don't care for any comfort. We simply spend minimum just to keep the body and soul together, that's all. This is our principle. We don't spend a farthing for our sense gratification. This should be noted down if some case is there, this should be presented. We don't go to restaurant, we don't go to cinema, we don't spend lavishly for dress or something else, no. Neither for furniture (laughter). Eh? If you sit down in a, a pad is that faulty? Hari-śauri: Then when they go to any of our temples, they're amazed because we don't... Prabhupāda: We sit down, don't use any chair, any couches, unnecessarily, carpet. What expenditure? We have no expenditure for personal self. And still you are faulty? What can be done? We don't purchase any cosmetic, this clay tilaka is sufficient. We don't apply any pomade or cosmetic or ointment. Either for our girls or ourselves. We don't do that, we live very simply. After 15 days we shave, there is no use of cutting or decorating. Note down all these things. We have no doctor's bill even. Hari-śauri: It's because of those... Prabhupāda: At least I save doctors bill, (chuckles) I am always sick, but I never go to the doctor. Give me little nim, give me little this (sounds of hand striking table), that's all. Then what less expenditure we can make? As far as possible we do not go even to the doctor. Hari-śauri: Well, It's because of these things, that they're wondering well then, what do we do with the money? Prabhupāda: We spend for Kṛṣṇa. Just like spending it, lakhs of rupees in Bombay for Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: Yeah, I agree. Prabhupāda: Every month. Hari-śauri: We just have to show them how many books we are printing and everything, too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: It's not that we're letting the money sit and accumulating. Prabhupāda: No. I am daily canvassing Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, "Print book! I don't want to keep the money in the bank, convert into the books and keep it in our..." I am asking. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Whatever little money I've got, I don't want to keep in the bank. I want to convert it and purchase paper, print book. Then these rascals will never be able to take anything from us. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: That I am asking every time. Ask Gopāla that, "Print books and keep it nicely, otherwise somebody may steal and sell in the market." Our books should be printed and kept very safely. This is our program. And they are speaking from the Vedic literature. We don't manufacture any magic, any jugglery, any mystic power. We have no mystic power. So, which point they will find fault? (laughs) I don't think we have got any loophole. Hari-śauri: We simply have to... Prabhupāda: Huh? Hari-śauri: ...present our whole program and... *Prabhupāda: Our only business is how to establish Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the only business. Our quarrel with our men: Why this temple is not clean? Why there is no flower in the Deity room? This is our fight. We have no other cause of fight. And why should we show magic? But these inquiries are going on*-it is good-these rascals will be exposed. Hari-śauri: Hm. The people are so confused because they don't know... Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: What's bona fide and what is not now. Prabhupāda: Neither they want. They are becoming skeptic. Hari-śauri: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Nobody's bona fide, that's all. This is their conclusion. Because they have confronted with some non*-bona fide, they have concluded that everyone is non-bona fide. Hari-śauri: It's very easy just to try to brush it all under the couch and forget about it. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) A man's household utensils was taken by the thief. He promised, "I shall not purchase anymore utensils, I shall eat on the floor. (laughs) Because the thief has stolen my plates, I'm not going to purchase anymore, I shall eat on the floor. (Bengali) Hari-śauri: They give the example that just because someone may be passing counterfeit money, that doesn't mean that all the money you get... *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. They conclude that no more take any money, all counterfeit. At least in India, Bhagavad*-gītā is there, accepted, the God-science literature all over the world. Hari-śauri: Hm. *Prabhupāda: Every country. So why they do not take the Bhagavad*-gītā as the standard? Hari-śauri: Eventually they will if we push it on. (pause) Prabhupāda: My mother was very much fond of pickles. After resting in the afternoon, she would take something very sour, pickle. We used to take with her also. (laughs) We were small children, my mother died when I was only 14 years old. (long pause) (aside) What else? All right bring it. (sounds of plates sliding) Hari-śauri: Potato pakorā. *Prabhupāda: Oh, hm. [break] ...just in front of our house, attached to our house. That means the house belonged to one of our relatives and her son, stepson, he sold the whole house to a Marwari without the knowledge of this, my, she was in relation grandmother. So when the house was sold in those days, about say about 100 years ago, not 100 years, about 90 years. In Mahatma Gandhi road, most important, that Mullik's house you have seen? That was one of the Mullik's house, for 12,000 rupees. One bighā of land and grand building. So it was unknown to the stepmother, the stepson sold it. Then she appealed to the high*-court that, "I belong to a respectable family and this my spoiled stepson has sold the house without my knowledge, then where shall I go?" The high-court considered that, "The drunkard son has sold at a cheap price, and she's belongs to a respectable family, where she'll go?" And the high-court order was, "The half of the house shall be used by this lady. During her lifetime, you cannot take possession," the Marwari who purchased. So under that grandmother, we used to live. Therefore this half portion of the house was a Marwari school. So it is just like our temple and this. So my father first admitted me in that Marwari school. So I learned this devanāgarī there, for a few days I was going. I was the only Bengali student there. Because I was little, my father thought that instead of going outside the house, within the house there is a school, get him admitted. The school name was Visuddhana(?) Marwari Vijnala(?), something like that, and later on they constructed huge building Visuddhana(?). Then the house was vacated. So in the beginning I was admitted in a Marwari school and I learned a little Hindi there, that's all. Devotee (1): (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (laughs) That was little chance also, understanding Hindi. And I was maybe 7, 6 or 7 years old, that's all. Then somebody made at Saranpur. That was of course not in the school. Then in our college there were many up*-country (?) class friends, Scottish Churches College. One of them was that Grnanatha (?), he came here, (Hindi). Devotee (1): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: He was bigger (?) in the police court M.A., B.A... Now, I repeatedly told him that "You stay here and write Hindi." Devotee (2): He didn't stay here? Prabhupāda: He stayed for one week or 15 days. (Hindi) Devotee (3): (Hindi) *Devotee (4): L*-A-R-Y-N-X. Cavity with enclosing muscles and mucus membrane behind and communicating with nose, mouth and larynx. Prabhupāda: Hm? Here this side, this space some connection, when it is affected that is called laryngitis. Hari-śauri: Hm. Prabhupāda: I know some of the medical terms. Devotee (1): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Now this disease is called laryngitis. Devotee (1): Yeah. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Śarīraṁ vyādhi*-mandiram. It is a temple of disease. The temple of di..., temple of miseries. Not only disease, there are so many other things. Huh? Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ [Bg. 2.14], simply giving trouble. Śarīra-bandha, asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ [SB 5.5.4]. Deha, deha means kleśada, kleśada troublesome. They do not know this science. And they do not know how to get out of this body, there is no science. This is the only science Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They do not know this science, they do not know what is the real position, how troubles come, how we are suffering. Nothing of the sort. And our Kṛṣṇa Consciousness movement is simply dealing with this, how to get out of this entanglement of the body. That is the only problem. And the materialistic person, they do not think it as a problem. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7]. We are dealing with the real problems, and others they do not know what is the problems, what to speak of dealing with them. Completely in ignorance, how the body is changing, why there are different forms of life, wherefrom they are coming. They do not deal with these things. Hari-śauri: Everybody thinks their body is for enjoying this. They think it's the source of pleasure. Prabhupāda: That enjoyment that God's children? They also thought it is enjoyment, you see? The hippies are thinking, enjoying. And others little polished way. They are also the same, in a polished way, by dressing nicely. Eh? Everyone is in ignorance, tribhir guṇamayair bhāvaiḥ. Find out this verse. Devotee (1): Ebhiḥ sarvam idaṁ jagat. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee (1): Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvair ebhiḥ sarvam idaṁ jagat. Prabhupāda: Nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Devotee (1): This is from the 7th chapter. Prabhupāda: Seventh, yes. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Devotee (1): See if it's 7, fifteenth or fourteenth. (pause) *Prabhupāda: About the gosvāmīs it is said, nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau **, sleeping, and eating, and sense enjoyment conquered. So no sleeping, no eating and no sense gratification, that is perfection. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau. Hm. Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: Here is the disease, material disease. They are being carried away by the three modes of material nature. Hm? It is explained further that puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi bhuṅkte... [Bg. 13.22]. Hm. *Devotee (2): Bhuṅkte prakṛti*-jān guṇān. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Guṇān. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya. *Devotee (3): Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya, sad-asad-yoni... *Prabhupāda: Sad*-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Hm? Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi [Bg. 13.22]. So, this is a big purport about this? How big...? Hari-śauri: About one page. Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvaiḥ? Prabhupāda: Hm. Read it. Prabhupāda: This is explanation of that? Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: I don't think in any other edition such explanation is there. Dr. Radhakrishnan, other this Dada (?) Krishna. Radhakrishnan and Dada Krishna. Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvair ebhiḥ sarvam. Hm. Nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Therefore they cannot understand what is God, especially the communist countries. Completely in ignorance. (Sanskrit) They're thinking that by external adjustment, by following the Marxist theory or Lenin's theory and killing the capitalists, inventing some bogus ways of happiness... (pause) You have been in Moscow? Haṁsadūta: Hm, several times. Prabhupāda: Hm. I think they are poor. Is it not? Haṁsadūta: Very poor. Prabhupāda: Just see. Haṁsadūta: Big country, very poor. Hari-śauri: Moscow. Haṁsadūta: In that city, one has to wait for years in order to get an apartment. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Haṁsadūta: Yes, Anatol was telling me, that boy Ānanda-śānti. His whole family was living in that..., but you did not see his room. His room is very small, maybe two times the size of your kitchen and whole family was living in that. Mother, grandmother, father, him, and when Mandākinī went there she was also living there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Haṁsadūta: Very small. Prabhupāda: Pigeonhole. Haṁsadūta: Pigeonhole, really pigeonhole. Prabhupāda: So why this is? Haṁsadūta: Only one room. Because there is no, economically they're... Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Not making progress. The situation is very bad. And all the buildings if you noticed, they were very old. Prabhupāda: Yes I have already told... Haṁsadūta: Did you notice? They were built in the time of Stalin. Prabhupāda: Hm. Not Stalin. Haṁsadūta: Or in the years before, sorry. Prabhupāda: That is during the Czar. They could not build any. Haṁsadūta: That university, very old, that university and all the big buildings, very old. And like you say there is no taxi. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: No food, the women are working like... Prabhupāda: Sweeper. Haṁsadūta: Sweeper, all fat... Prabhupāda: Why they're fat? Haṁsadūta: Just eating potatoes and and... Prabhupāda: Meat. Haṁsadūta: Meat, pork meat, pig's meat. Prabhupāda: Very miserable condition. Haṁsadūta: Oh yeah. Prabhupāda: And advertising, communists are so rich, so happy. Haṁsadūta: I know, everything, all their literature concerns itself with struggling. Struggling against capitalists, struggling to... Prabhupāda: And mass of people they are very morose, unhappy. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: In the street you see there is no happiness in their face. Haṁsadūta: Silent. Prabhupāda: Hm. Means terrorism, if they do anything against, then (snaps fingers) finished. Hari-śauri: Subdued. Prabhupāda: Very miserable. Haṁsadūta: All these communist countries are like that. I was in many of these countries, people are all depressed. Prabhupāda: There is no taxi. You cannot get taxi on call. And the taxi drivers, they want something more. Haṁsadūta: Yes, they... Prabhupāda: Hm? Haṁsadūta: They do that. Prabhupāda: Very bad country, the communist country. Haṁsadūta: I was asking this boy, that was here a few days ago from South India, from Kerala, he was in Russia. I asked him. "What did you eat there?" What did you, you stayed for one year? Prabhupāda: He must be eating meat. Haṁsadūta: No, he said, "I was able to get frozen vegetables from the south of Russia. They freeze it and then they sell it," he said, "but it is very expensive, very costly." He was getting frozen. Prabhupāda: That is also nasty. Frozen means nasty. I never take frozen. In the beginning I thought, "Oh, it is very nice, you can get fresh vegetable." But they are not at all fresh. Haṁsadūta: No. *Prabhupāda: All rotten, rather the same vegetable, as we have got in India practice, we dry it and keep it. That is tasteful. In season time*-suppose this season there is huge quantity of vegetable-so here the system is they cut into pieces during the season and dry it in the sun and keep it. And during out of season it is soaked in water, it revives the old taste, then you can cook. (Hindi or Bengali) Devotee (1): Tastes as though it is different. The fresh vegetable the taste is very good. Prabhupāda: Fresh vegetable must be, but still there is some taste. But this frozen it has no taste. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Even they have, Indians those who are fish eaters, they keep this dry fish. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, dried fish. *Prabhupāda: They-fresh fish*-they smear with turmeric and salt and keep it in the sunshine and they dry it. And of course this fish it has no, what is it taste. (laughter) But they keep it. (aside) Bring me little water. (Bengali and Hindi) This I want to introduce, let them be satisfied whatever they can produce themselves locally. What is that, little cloth, little food? Any man can produce these things. There is no difficulty at all. They must agree to this simple life. Otherwise, everywhere you can produce your own food and cloth and cottage. If possible you can construct big buildings. There is no need. And they should be satisfied, happy with Kṛṣṇa. Then life is successful. This I want to introduce now, anywhere. And it is practical. It is not something bogus. It is... We have already experimented. By God's grace we can produce everything from the lands, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī? You can get everything. If they are satisfied with this simple life, then they save time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness and happy life. In India they don't require even cottage. One katiya (?) is sufficient. Keeping in one place and lay down. Eight months, at least six months, it is very nice. At night, even in daytime it is very hot, at night it is cool. So you have got very good sleep, soothing, then you become refreshed in the morning. If you have got good sleep at night, then you become refreshed, your health is regained. Hm? If I (indistinct), take morning snāna and cāpāṭi. During very hot season they don't take even cāpāṭi. They take some fruits, guava and this... What is called that? (Hindi) Devotee (2): That? Melon. Prabhupāda: Melon, yes. During hot season you get watermelon, this other melon. Hari-śauri: Honeydew melon. Prabhupāda: Honeydew melon, oh very nice. In the upcountries still in the village during daytime they don't eat. During daytime they take some fruits and at night when it is cool, the cool ah, refreshing air, they make some cāpāṭi. One time, is it not? Devotee (2): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Eh, (Hindi) In that night because in daytime it is so hot, it is embarrassing to cook and to digest also. Better take food, ah, fruit, this melon, and at night they take 3 or 4 cāpāṭis according to the... And good sleep. Very happy life it was, all over India. There was no question of poverty. People did not know what is poverty and now it is poverty. They do not get even sufficient food. Hari-śauri: Industrialization. *Prabhupāda: Ugra*-karma. I don't like industrialism. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Prabhupāda: ...brainwash. Hari-śauri: But how can they take it that what we're doing is a bad thing. If we're training people how to avoid intoxication, how to avoid illicit sex, abortion, contraception. Prabhupāda: They say, "Why you should avoid? This is life. Why you are brainwashing?" One boy was there in the beginning. What was his name? Ranchor, his name, I gave him. So his father argued, "Why you are avoiding illicit sex? This is life! Why you are afraid? I'll give you car. I'll give you girls. You enjoy. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy." His father was arguing. I think everyone's father argues like that. Lord Roland said, he said, "Why you are prohibiting this thing? This is our life. It is impossible." Hari-śauri: The thing is in society still, even now, there are people who abstain from it. There are vegetarians. Prabhupāda: There may be very few, one or two. That is insignificant. One million, two person, he is. At least especially in your country. Hari-śauri: The thing is that they don't claim that they are brainwashed. So we're a society where we're doing all these things, combinedly. Prabhupāda: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If the majority are fools and rascal, if you say something sane, then they'll ask... The man, the sane man, he is insane. He's crazy. Hari-śauri: Then how to fight them? *Prabhupāda: That is the position. The only means is that in spite of all opposition we have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will cleanse. Otherwise there is no other way. Argument and logic, they have no brain to understand. It requires this transcendental method, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. You have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and let them give the chance to hear. Then they will be able to catch it, what we are saying, not directly. It is not possible. Hari-śauri: Then how are we going to fare in this court case? 'Cause in these court cases it's a question of presenting one side against the... Prabhupāda: No, philosophy is there. Court case means there is philosophy, there is logic. So for that we have got so many books. We can... But general mass of people, chanting. When there is court case we are prepared to defend. We have got... We are not fools. We can talk that what is the aim of life. They cannot say anything. The transmigration of the soul, the aim of life which we are discussing in our book, that's fact. How he can deny the transmigration of the soul from one body to another? And if that is accepted, the whole problem is solved. He does not know what kind of life he is going to get. Therefore they do not accept this philosophy. If once accepted, then next question-"What kind of life we are going to get, either to become a tree or a dog or human being?" What arrangement you have done that you will get next life human being? Then the pious and impious activities comes one after another. The basic principle they are denying. "After this body is finished, everything is finished." Bhāsmi bhūtasya dehasya punar agama...(?) "The body will be burned into ashes, and where is life? Who is coming? Who is going? That's all." They do not see the soul. Their medical science cannot find out where is soul. How do they say the... The soul means intelligence, they say. Otherwise how do they say the animal has no soul? Why do they say? What is the... "Man has soul," they say. "The animal has no soul." Jagadīśa: That's what the Christians say. The Christians say. Prabhupāda: So what is the symptom? Hari-śauri: Well, they... 'Cause he, man, has reason and logic. Prabhupāda: That means reason and logic is soul. That is their idea. That is not soul. Intelligence, when I say, "You have got intelligence," it does not mean you are intelligence. "You have got intelligence," we say like that. We never say, "You are intelligence." So intelligence is not soul. The rascals, they do not know. Mistake. Nobody says, "You are intelligence." They say, "You are intelligent." Hari-śauri: Intelligence is something you possess. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So? [break] Hari-śauri: "Brainwashing: clearing the mind of established ideas by persistent suggestion and indoctrination." *Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is... We are doing that. They are under the impression, "Work hard, earn money, and enjoy life." We say, "No. Don't work hard for sense gratification but work hard for self*-realization." Indoctrine. Hari-śauri: Well, any form of education is indoctrination. Prabhupāda: Indoctrinization. Yes. Any kind of education is... Hari-śauri: Whatever you teach someone, you teach according to whatever you see as the correct value. Prabhupāda: Yes. The child goes to the school. His brain is packed up: "I shall play all day." He likes to play but it is indoctrinization that "No, you should read. You must become graduate." Hari-śauri: Yes. And whatever country he's born in, he has to learn the culture of that country, he's indoctrinated. Prabhupāda: Apart from that, education is required. The child wants to play but we have to educate him that "No, play is not all. You have to be educated." Similarly, this animal life, eating, sleeping, mating, this is already there. No. We say, "Not only this, you have to realize God." This kind of brainwash is required. If we do not understand God, then what is the difference between you and dog? He knows how to eat, how to sleep. He doesn't require any high education how to eat. Everyone knows how to eat, how to use sex. Nobody requires any university education. Hari-śauri: Simply ignorance. Prabhupāda: When the animal enjoy sex, they know which part of the body has to be used. Hari-śauri: They don't have to be taught. Prabhupāda: There is no need of education. He knows it. And these rascals, they are presenting Freud's philosophy, sex. Just see how they are wasting time. *Hari-śauri: They have so many books now on so*-called sex education, so many of them. Prabhupāda: Simply wasting time. There is a story about this. One man was canvassing, hawking. Hawker? Hari-śauri: Yes, hawker. Prabhupāda: So he was, "Here is a book of cow protection, cow protection." He has written one book to take care of the cows. So one old man called him, "What you are selling?" Now, "I am selling this book." "What is that book?" "Maintaining the cow." So, "Why you are selling? First of all give this book to your mother because you are no better than cow, so she will learn how to give you protection." That means he wanted to impress upon him that "Cow protection doesn't require any education. You have written a book? So you are such a rascal, cow intelligence. Better give this book to your mother. She will maintain you. Don't sell it. Everyone knows how to give cow protection." So similarly, this sex literature, there is no need of sex literature. Sex literature is there in Sanskrit also. That is how to restrict sex. For what purpose one should indulge in sex, that is called Kāma-śāstra. I have seen this Freud philosophy became so prominent that sometimes in the year... 1940's maybe. So one young woman was traveling, and another young man was traveling. So they began to discuss about sex very openly. And both of them unknown. Still, they engaged themselves in discussing the sex literature, without any shame. *Hari-śauri: Pseudo*-intellectuals. Shameless. Prabhupāda: Yes. Young boy, young girl, they began to discuss on sex openly as scientific. Hari-śauri: What is this scientific? Prabhupāda: Scientific means after discussing for some time you propose that "Let us enjoy sex." That's all. It is common thing in your country, unknown girl, unknown boy, and talk for some time, "Let us go to some restaurant," and then talk more intimately, and then sex. Hari-śauri: That's the whole social system. Prabhupāda: "Would you like to sex?" And who is the young man, young... They'll deny it. I know this. During ball dance they embrace one another, another's wife, another husband, and in ball dance... Or there are side rooms. Naturally they'll feel sex and they go to the side room and discuss. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. Hari-śauri: The only reason they go to a dance is to pick up some woman for sex life. That's all. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Most of my friends used to go out specifically to find some woman to have sex. Prabhupāda: This dancing club means this. (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 4, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...one hour. Pradyumna: Just after it gets dark. Prabhupāda: Huh? Pradyumna: Just after sun does down it gets a little dark. Prabhupāda: Then at what time it should be happened? You can inquire from other temple. Akśayananda: Last winter we had, 6:30. Pradyumna: With the season it changes little. Prabhupāda: So is there any regulation given in the pañjikā, when? Pradyumna: Just... Only regulation given for timing is that for Deity going to rest at noon. The Deity should take rest at noon, two yāmas after sunrise, and take rest in evening, one yāma after sunset. But it didn't say anything about the other āratis. Prabhupāda: The ārati, it is called sandhya ārati. Sandhya ārati means just in the evening. So when evening time is there... After sunset it is not evening. What is the time of sunset nowadays? Bring pañjikā. Akśayananda: Around 5:30, isn't it? Prabhupāda: What is the time of sunset? Hari-śauri: It's about 5:30. Prabhupāda: 5:30, then one hour after. Then 6:30 is all right. 6:30 is all right. Akśayananda: Okay. So in that case, when would you like to come and visit? Prabhupāda: No, 6:30. Akśayananda: Now you're coming six till seven. Hari-śauri: 5:30 to 6:30? Prabhupāda: We shall come... 6:30-7:00, ārati will go on. So we can come half an hour before. Hari-śauri: 5:30. Prabhupāda: 5:30. 5:30. Instead of coming there at six, I come there 5:30. And one hour, then 6:30 begins. Make that like that. That will be nice. So why you were not present in the meeting? Pradyumna: I was there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya. That's all right. I think you can understand Hindi? No. Pradyumna: I am trying to. I can understand little bit. I am practicing. Prabhupāda: You should learn Hindi, Bengali. You are learning? Pradyumna: He talks... When he talks, he talks a little fast, when he reads the anuvada. Prabhupāda: Who? *Pradyumna: Ah, Prema*-yogi. Prabhupāda: Ah, he is... But I am studying. He is translating nice. He is learned. *Hari-śauri: We wanted to ask you about... He was training up Prema*-yogi to do the editing, but there's no one to do the transcribing. We'll have to send the tapes... Prabhupāda: Transcribing? No, why? Pradyumna: Why can't Pālikā do? Hari-śauri: She can do it? I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, she can do. Hari-śauri: Pālikā can do it? That will be all right, then. Prabhupāda: You also learn. Hari-śauri: Typing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: In case there is none, you should do. Pradyumna: Pālikā's done it before. Prabhupāda: No, Pālikā can do. I know that. Akśayananda: She is expert. *Prabhupāda: She is expert in typing. Amongst the women, she is expert typist. She is expert in so many things. Only defect is that she is woman. But Kṛṣṇa says, striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyaḥ: "Never mind woman. If she is devotee, she also comes to Me." Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā, "no one barred." Especially naming, striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśya te 'pi yānti parām. Everyone is to be.... Kṛṣṇa is so kind. There is no restriction. Everyone is open to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya*-nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. This is open to all living entities. There is no restriction. And so long this body is there, material, there is distinction between this and that. Otherwise, when you come to the platform of spiritual understanding, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18], then there is no restriction. Higher, lower, this, that, so many. Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. So any newspaper propaganda against us? No. One complaint is standing, that with our life members and others, subscriber, they always complain they are not getting paper, they are not getting book. That is the general complaint. Akśayananda: They send regularly. We are sending. But many times the mail is stolen, magazines, Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Akśayananda: Yes, it is very difficult. Prabhupāda: Because there are so many nice picture. I have seen. When I was printing my books in a Delhi press, so one peon was coming there to work part time as compositor. So his mailbag he will put somewhere in the press and he will being composing. And all other compositors, they'll check the mail bag and if something is attractive, they will take. I have seen it. Our magazine is so... Akśayananda: It's so beautiful. Prabhupāda: ...full of pictures, so naturally, as soon as they, the picture and..., they take it. Akśayananda: Yes, that's the trouble. So we have a system in some towns. We find one member who is very much liking us, and we send all the magazines to him, and he goes, sends his, given by hand, to all the other members in that city. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Akśayananda: We are doing that in some cities but we don't have in all cities such a system. That system works. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? Some are living ten miles from him. It is not possible. No, that is happening in India, not in other countries. In your country the peons are very responsible. Akśayananda: Yes, the post office is also very good. *Prabhupāda: Here they never satisfied. This is the modern mentality. Nobody is satisfied with his income. He wants more money. And for that purpose he can do anything rascal. I have seen it. This peon puts his bag without any responsibility. Letters are strewn and maybe some letters stolen. Who can say? And he came to earn some money. For some time he'll compose and get some labor. And in Calcutta I have seen all the office peons, they are sleeping in Dalhousie Square, the peon book as the pillow, for hours together. And when they, after distributing, when they return to the office it is going to be closed. And if they are asked explanation, "Why you are so late?" "Oh, he was not there. I had to wait three hours," and so on, so on, so on. Everyone is dishonest. Nobody is working honestly. Especially in India, because poverty*-stricken. If they can sleep two hours he thinks that he has made some profit. Formerly people were God conscious. They did not like to cheat, that "God will be displeased." Now they don't believe in God, so they can do anything. Akśayananda: Now that we've become devotee. Prabhupāda: "Everyone is God." Akśayananda: If we sleep for two hours we think we have wasted two hours. *Prabhupāda: That should be. Sleeping is waste of time. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau **, we have to conquer over eating and sleeping and mating. Hari-śauri: Just the opposite to the karmīs. They want to increase their eating. [break] *Prabhupāda: Formerly, when I was in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple, there was a khol manufacturer here. Is he here still? He supplied me khol very nice, very big. This khol was taken to Germany or... Akśayananda: What was his name? Prabhupāda: I forgot. Akśayananda: There is one man here. Prabhupāda: In here? Akśayananda: One man is here, but I don't know if it's the same one. Prabhupāda: Can you call him? Akśayananda: Yes. I think he's just a repairman though. Prabhupāda: Whatever he may be. Yes. We must have very good khol. You have no good khol. Akśayananda: I had one under repair. I had two under repair with him. But he takes a long time. I am waiting now for repair. Prabhupāda: So you can call him. Akśayananda: Okay. You'd like to meet him? Prabhupāda: Yes. If the same man, then I can ask him to prepare some khol. Akśayananda: Ours get damaged. Hari-śauri: The shells or...? Akśayananda: They break them so easily. They cannot control them. The shell, the skin, anything, always break. Hari-śauri: You should make some padded covers for them. Prabhupāda: Who is doing that? Everyone is irresponsible. Akśayananda: Even with that, they break. Hari-śauri: But at least it helps the chances they'll survive. Prabhupāda: The one thing is that they neglect that rings. That ring and the strap, if it is... That will never do. As soon as they khol, some rope, bas. Hari-śauri: Usually what breaks is that little leather loop, you know, the small loop on each end. That's what usually breaks. If you want to... Prabhupāda: No, if you make it nicely with chain. Akśayananda: I have made it even nicely with a cord, with a ring, and the proper straps. But they put it like this and like this and they bang it the wrong way. This is my problem. I can't stop it, no matter what we do. Hari-śauri: You just bring them out for ārati and then have somebody take them back and they won't get broken. Haṁsadūta was doing that with his mṛdaṅgas. Akśayananda: I was also doing that. Hari-śauri: The mṛdaṅgas are in there all day long. Any karmī that comes in, they beat the drum and mess around. The little kids go in and they do the same thing. I've seen them. You should take them out of the temple. Let them be there for kīrtana and then take them away and store them in your room. There's no kartālas now either because everybody steals them. Prabhupāda: These two rooms can be used for keeping. Akśayananda: Kartālas are locked away every time and the drums were done... That was done until they were broken. Hari-śauri: Or you can just put them in that tourist room. Or in the pūjārī room. Akśayananda: Yeah, I'll arrange for that. Prabhupāda: Everything depends on organized management. Give some... Akśayananda: Shall I put... Some gentlemen, some bābājīs, are coming now, some metas. Prabhupāda: Aiye, aiye. Betiye. Akśayananda: May I help bota? (?) Prabhupāda: Yes. Betiye. (end) *Room Conversation About Gurukula-*-November 5, 1976, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: The modern education means... Just see what is the disastrous condition. For 531 posts, three lakhs people have applied. How the unemployment... This application means they are all educated. Uneducated, they do not apply for any post. That means educated unemployed. This is India's so*-called education. Without light it is... You can open door. [break] Jagadīśa: First thing, I wanted to go over the daily schedule. According to the schedule, the boys get up between 3:30 and quarter to four. Prabhupāda: Why so early? Jagadīśa: Why 3:30 and quarter to four? That's what time we all get up. Prabhupāda: We are holding maṅgala-ārati at five. So why 3:30? Jagadīśa: Well, they do japa before maṅgala-ārati. Prabhupāda: No, no. It will be too early for them. They first of all... Jagadīśa: They're accustomed to getting up at... Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: They've been getting up at that time for years. Prabhupāda: If they are accustomed, that is all right. But otherwise it is not needed, so early. When they go to sleep? Jagadīśa: At 8:15. Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is all right. That is all right. At least they must have rest, six hours, complete. Jagadīśa: Oh, they get more than that. Prabhupāda: Then it is... *Jagadīśa: Then they get ready, bathed and dressed, by about 4:10. So they chant japa from 4:10 until five o'clock under the supervision of their teacher. Then ārati, tulasī worship. And after tulasī worship they again have japa up until guru*-pūjā, greeting the Deities. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jagadīśa: From the time tulasī worship is over until the time of greeting the Deities. Prabhupāda: How long it is? Jagadīśa: That's an hour and fifteen minutes. Altogether they have japa time amounting to... Prabhupāda: And who... They will... The small boys, they can devote so much time? Jagadīśa: Well these are not small boys. These are... Prabhupāda: Oh, teachers. Jagadīśa: At least ten years, nine, ten years old. Prabhupāda: Still... Devotee: Nine years old to fourteen years old. Prabhupāda: They should be engaged in chanting, not sit down and japa. That will not be possible for them. Jagadīśa: The problem is that some of the boys are fourteen, fifteen, or thirteen. They should chant japa because they are required to chant sixteen rounds a day. Many of them are initia... Prabhupāda: Sixteen rounds, it requires, utmost two hours, two and a half hours. Jagadīśa: Well, two hours is on the schedule, two hours and ten minutes. Prabhupāda: Chela bangiya (laughter). How are you? That's nice. Jagadīśa: So they have two hours and five minutes of japa. Dhanurdhara: Some boys that are younger, they make a vow to do less and then they can study. *Jagadīśa: Some of the younger boys chant six or eight rounds instead of sixteen. They chant that much during that time and then they study. Then they attend the temple program, guru*-pūjā and Bhāgavatam class. And then after that, they go upstairs, wash their clothes and clean the āśrama. That takes them about an hour, to wash their clothes and sweep and cleanse the floor, cleanse the shower room, wash their clothes... Prabhupāda: Now, when they chant the mantras? *Jagadīśa: Brahma*-saṁhitā? Prabhupāda: Or any... Jagadīśa: Any mantras. At... Right now they're chanting from nine until 9:30 in the morning with Yaśodānandana Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Not in the, early in the morning? Yaśodānandana: In the early morning I take some of the boys in the Deity room between 5:30 and six the boys and the Deities. Prabhupāda: Deity means temple. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Deity? What do you mean, "the Deity room"? *Yaśodānandana: Within the Deity room, when they are bathing the Deities, we are offering the prayers to the Deities, the Brahma*-saṁhitā and Īśopaniṣad. Prabhupāda: Why? Why? Deity room? Within the Deity room there is no need of chanting. Who told you this? There is no need. Eh? Within the Deity room? You told? Pradyumna: No. Prabhupāda: Then? *Pradyumna: Sometimes you... I thought you said, for installation or at other times when the Deity is being bathed, to chant Brahma*-saṁhitā prayers. Prabhupāda: No. Within the Deity room there is no business. No business. Jagadīśa: When we hear the chanting, that's where it's coming from in the morning. Prabhupāda: Oh. They can chant outside, yes. The Deity bathing or whatever, dressing, may go on. You can chant not within the Deity room. That you can do outside. Then when their reading, writing begins? Jagadīśa: That begins at 10:15, after prasādam. They take prasādam at 9:30, and then at 10:15 their English class begins. Prabhupāda: Just after taking prasādam? Jagadīśa: Yes. Fifteen minutes after. Prabhupāda: Hm. What begins? *Jagadīśa: English class, that goes for one and a half hours. Then there's math class which goes for forty*-five minutes. *Prabhupāda: Not continually. They should be given a recess ten minutes. Then again come to the class. And a class should not be more than forty*-five minutes. One class should not be continued more than forty-five minutes, then ten minutes recess, then begin another class. Jagadīśa: For the English program it is required, in order for them to have enough time to read and write, then they would require an hour and half, so they would have two classes. Prabhupāda: In the meantime, one and a half? You give ten minutes recess. Jagadīśa: And during the recess what should they do? *Prabhupāda: Nothing. They'll be free. Nothing to do. Recess means nothing to do. That is brain, I mean to say, rest. All continually you cannot do that. That is not good. Utmost, forty minutes or forty*-five minutes. Then give them ten minutes' freedom. Then begin another. Not more than forty to forty-five minutes at a time, reading, writing. Jagadīśa: After class, then, by 12:30 they bathe again, second time. Prabhupāda: They take prasādam first and then bathe? Jagadīśa: They bathe... They take prasādam at 9:00 in the morning, 9:30. Then they have class. Then after class is finished, then they bathe. Prabhupāda: After class they bathe? Jagadīśa: Around 12:30. Prabhupāda: Not needed. After prasādam they should not take bathing at least for four hours. Pradyumna: They have a schedule where they have dāl, rice, and sabji, and cāpāṭi at 9:30 in the morning. Is that what they have in the afternoon? Prabhupāda: Eh? So, when they first take bathing? Jagadīśa: Uh, when they rise, at around four o'clock. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Then they take the prasādam at what time? Jagadīśa: 9:30. Prabhupāda: 9:30. So... Jagadīśa: We can take prasādam earlier. Prabhupāda: No, no, why earlier? Earlier, any breakfast? Jagadīśa: No. Prabhupāda: So why not? They are children. They must have some breakfast. Jagadīśa: They have three meals. One at... This is the way the temple program is scheduled. The temple eats at 9:30 in the morning, so the boys also get prasādam at that time because everyone eats the same... Prabhupāda: But early in the morning they should have some, at least munch of sweetmeat, something like that. Bhagatji: Like chewra. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagatji: Like chewra and curds, they can take. After taking bath at one o'clock they should take little prasādam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Early in the morning, just after maṅgala-ārati, they can take something. They must take something. They are taking bathing at what time? Jagadīśa: In the morning? Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: Ten to four. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: Four o'clock. Prabhupāda: Four o'clock. So after maṅgala-ārati, the maṅgala-ārati prasādam should be given them, a little sweet. Yaśodānandana: We hadn't agreed on that (indistinct). Jagadīśa: Yes, the maṅgala-ārati sweets. Prabhupāda: Maṅgala-ārati sweets, they should be distributed amongst the children, little sweets. Then they can take 9:30 prasādam. Jagadīśa: Full prasādam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then? Again they are taking bathing at what time? Jagadīśa: The scheduled next bathing is 12:30. Prabhupāda: Then what is the... 12:30, then? Jagadīśa: After bathing they take a little prasādam. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. Then it is all right. Jagadīśa: Then at 1:30 they take some rest. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. How long? Jagadīśa: One hour. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Jagadīśa: Then they have Sanskrit class from 2:30 until four. Prabhupāda: Hm. 2:30, four, that's all right. Jagadīśa: One and a half hours. So there should be a recess in between. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jagadīśa: That's one and a half hours, so there should be recess in between. Prabhupāda: Ten minutes at least. Jagadīśa: Then at four o'clock the chanting party leaves for the Yamunā procession. Prabhupāda: In process... That's nice. Jagadīśa: And they return by six for darśana in the temple room. Prabhupāda: No, let them return by 5:30. Jagadīśa: 5:30. Devotee 2: Can we have the class while we're there? 'Cause it takes us... Jagadīśa: Well, we can adjust this. Because darśana begins at 5:30, they should be there by... Prabhupāda: No, darśana begins at five... Jagadīśa: 5:30. Prabhupāda: 5:30. Why? Devotee 2: It was at six o'clock in the evening. Originally it was at six o'clock. Prabhupāda: No, no. The darśana opens at five. Jagadīśa: No, when you come into the temple room, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Your darśana. Prabhupāda: No, no, my darśana is different. Public darśana. When the Deity room is open? Bhagatji: At five o'clock in the evening. Prabhupāda: That's it. Why do you say six? Jagadīśa: Uh, I meant that when the darśana period for yourself was at six. Prabhupāda: No, it should be 5:30. Jagadīśa: 5:30. Prabhupāda: General darśana is open at five. That's nice. Jagadīśa: So then the boys would return at 5:30... Prabhupāda: I think it may be little earlier, no, half an hour. Bhagatji: Half an hour, it would be because the ārati is going at 6:30... Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagatji: So the afternoon darśana would be at 4:30. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagatji: That we had, many, last year. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Jagadīśa: Then the boys would come for the chanting and recitation of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: What time? Jagadīśa: 5:30 to 6:30. Prabhupāda: No, 5:30 we begin class. In that class they can chant. Jagadīśa: Kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Jagadīśa: And then, at 6:30, there will be ārati and they'll stay for ārati. Then, after ārati, they take a little prasādam and then take rest. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That's all right. *Jagadīśa: And as far as everyone's duties are concerned, Rūpa*-vilāsa is the English teacher. He teaches English, and math, and, of course, Pradyumna teaches the Sanskrit program. And Dhanurdhara Prabhu has been. He works in the āśrama, overseeing the boys... Prabhupāda: Taking care. Jagadīśa: Yes. And Yaśodānandana Mahārāja will... Prabhupāda: Recitation. Jagadīśa: Recitation. Yaśodānandana: And I also help with getting the boys through japa and kīrtana and getting them more enthusiastic. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Jagadīśa: It's nice to have a sannyāsī involved. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jagadīśa: He can be a good example. Prabhupāda: Very good. Jagadīśa: And Bhagatji. *Prabhupāda: For feeding. Feeding. Give them sumptuous food so that they may become healthy, nice food. (laughter) Yes. That is also wanted. Children, they must eat sufficiently. Not overeat. Even overeat, that is not wrong for children. And that will be exercise, by going to Yamunā and coming? That will be bodily exercise. This is nice. Do that. Strictly follow. There is no scarcity of space there, yes. Vṛndāvana is holy place. And there is no government interference, so increase it. Bring more student from all over the world. Then it will be unique. And you also make scheme to get Indian children from aristocratic family. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga*-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate [Bg. 6.41]. Those who are born in high-class, rich family or brāhmaṇa family, they are not ordinary. But there is no brāhmaṇa family now. So at least the richer section, they can be induced to send their boys to learn Sanskrit and English and Bhagavad-bhakti. They can do business, and whatever they like, they can do later on. But these things, they should be... Father-mother should be careful. (Hindi conversation) ...just attract all good family children. (Hindi) ...working, they will have to live. They cannot. They cannot become paṇḍita or spiritually advanced men. They have to work. But if the richer section, they get their sons, good character, good devotee. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, ko 'tha putreṇa jātena yo na vidyā na bhaktimān: (?)"What is the use of such son who is neither devotee nor learned?" Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam.(?) What is the use of blind eyes? It is simply troublesome. So if the aristocratic family, they do not give education in spiritual line, they'll become all hippies, loafer, and drinking, and wasting father's money. They should be informed. (Hindi) [break] I think there must be three, four classes. Bhagatji: Three four classes afterwards, but at present? Prabhupāda: Ah. Bhagatji: If students are in great number, then we shall introduce, otherwise... Prabhupāda: Classes to be arranged according to the number of student increases. That's all. That shall be... Jagadīśa: Now there are two classes. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: There are two classes according to age. Prabhupāda: Kata (?) according to time and circumstance. Bhagatji: In my opinion, Prabhupāda, there should be one period for Hindi classes. Prabhupāda: That's very nice. *Bhagatji: Forty minutes, forty*-five minutes Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very good. That is essential. If the Indian students come they will require some vernacular like that. Bhagatji: Hindi class there should be. In Vṛndāvana they will... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Do that, Hindi. Bhagatji: In Māyāpura there should be Bengali class. And Hindi and Bengali, two language are very close. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not any other language. Hindi is essential, must be compulsory, Hindi. That is state language. Jagadīśa: For the Western children also? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, everyone. Bhagatji: You should find some time, entrust some time for Hindi. Prabhupāda: Hindi, Sanskrit, English compulsory. Bhagatji: That's all. Then, afterwards we can make other, just elemental mathematics, arithmetic or just that, afterwards, when the regular studies go in the (indistinct). Now (indistinct), these three things. By learning Hindi they will (indistinct). Prabhupāda: And the government also will like that, that foreign students... Bhagatji: If they can understand the language and they... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Hindi is essential. It is not difficult. The same principle as Sanskrit. Reading and writing, that's all. *Jagadīśa: So far as the financial situation, I've discussed with Bhagatji and it seems that the best idea is to open a separate gurukula maintenance account with co*-signers Bhagatji and Rūpa-vilāsa, so that... Because there's so much... Prabhupāda: So then some of them, they are getting money. Jagadīśa: Yes, the parents are sending money. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jagadīśa: Because with the temple there has been confusion. Prabhupāda: Now the temple, you can make separate account. Jagadīśa: We have one question about one of the boys. His name is (name withheld), and he's a... He's more or less a bad boy. He's had a bad background. His mother's a devotee and she's a nice devotee, but he's very... He terrorizes the other boys. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Jagadīśa: He misleads them. He lies. Prabhupāda: How old he is? Jagadīśa: He's thirteen. Prabhupāda: So he cannot be... He must go back. We cannot spoil other children. *Rūpa*-vilāsa: They are being spoiled by him. Jagadīśa: I was thinking, to make an example of him, either we should beat him or send him back. Prabhupāda: Best thing will be send him back. He's incorrigible. Yaśodānandana: Personally I had that boy with me for two months when I went to South India, preaching, and I thought it would be an asset to have a young boy, but he was so misbehaved that it was too much problem. And the same things that he was doing, in the beginning with me, telling lies and misbehaving, he is still doing now and he does not correct himself never. He has no effort to better his behavior or his conduct. He does not chant his rounds. He rarely comes to the kīrtana, or else when he comes to the kīrtana, he does not chant. He simply plays and makes fun. And it's very... He has a very bad influence on the other boys. Prabhupāda: No, then he should be sent back. Or he can be sent to Bombay to work ordinarily. Or Hyderabad farm. Like that. Let him work on the ground. Yaśodānandana: He speaks Bengali. That boy was in Bengal before and he picked up Bengali. Prabhupāda: So he can go. Pradyumna: He's very intelligent, but he's just had a bad... Prabhupāda: So he was in Māyāpura? Yaśodānandana: Yes, he was in Māyāpura before. He knows Bengali. He can speak Bengali. Prabhupāda: So he can go with the Māyāpura preaching party as well. Yaśodānandana: We could send him with Bhavānanda Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be nice. He knows Bengali. Let him go to Bengal and keep him under Bhavānanda. Jagadīśa: I think that he'll be a problem wherever he goes. Prabhupāda: No, Bhavānanda will correct his problem. Jagadīśa: I think Bhavānanda won't want to take him because he knows he's a problem. *Rūpa*-vilāsa: Bhavānanda told me he did not want to see that boy again. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Rūpa*-vilāsa: Bhavānanda told me he did not want to see that boy again. Pradyumna: In Māyāpura he had some girl... Jagadīśa: In my opinion, the best thing is to make an example and beat him. Prabhupāda: Yes, send him to farm, work in the field. If he does not work, beat him. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ. (?)(Hindi conversation) Yaśodānandana: He was just in Hyderabad for that ceremony there, and he caused such disruption in the whole temple that I don't think they'd want him there. Jagadīśa: The thing is, if we beat him here and keep him here, then all the boys will straighten up because they will see that if they go bad, then this will be their punishment. Prabhupāda: As you think, you can do. But I wanted to engage in farm work, in digging. Yaśodānandana: Yes, that is his propensity. Actually it's a fact when he was with me I would try to teach him *Īśopaniṣad* and your purports, which are so clear and simple, but after three or four times explaining the same thing, he would become angry to receive the instruction. Prabhupāda: No, no. He is meant for śūdra's work. Yaśodānandana: And when that boy would be told to watch himself... Prabhupāda: You cannot expect that everyone is brāhmaṇa. No. He has got śūdra mentality, so let him till the ground for Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. He is fit for tilling so let him till and produce grain for Kṛṣṇa. Jagadīśa: Hyderabad? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hard work. He should be given hard work. This gurukula is for high, high class brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, not for the vaiśyas and śūdras. (man laughs in background) No, everyone is required for Kṛṣṇa's service, but there... That I was describing today. There must be division. Don't put horse before a cart. Pradyumna: Race horse before the cart. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pradyumna: Race horse before the... Prabhupāda: Yes, that will not be nice. Bhagatji: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Vaiśya is meant for kṛṣi. Indian man: If you don't teach vaiśyas for this gurukula then how do they do the accounts? Prabhupāda: No, we are not taking vaiśyas by birth. Jagadīśa: Accounts is just a skill. Anyone can learn to do account. Indian man: No, vaiśya is special work. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, accounts are meant for kāyasthas, śūdras. (Indian man laughs) Vaiśyas are meant for producing grain and protecting cows. Yes. According... One Englishman used to say, "This clerical job means educated laborer, educated śūdra." (laughs) Śūdra... Actually the kāyasthas are counted amongst the śūdras. You know that? Bhagatji: In Bengal kāyasthas is the... Prabhupāda: No, no, Bengal. Mean in U.P. Bhagatji: In U.P. kāyasthas are śūdras. Prabhupāda: And originally they are śūdras. The history of Bengali kāyasthas... They went with the brāhmaṇas as servant. That is the history. And in Bengal the system is... (Bengali saying and Hindi explanation) Actually it is... If some low class man, he becomes rich, then he's taken into the kāyastha community. Anyone who cannot stick to the principle of caste system, he becomes a kāyastha. *Bhagatji: Varṇa*-saṅkara. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) Some of them are kṣatriyas and some of them... Like that. But that is not essential. That is all gone. Now, if one cannot take education, he can be used in farm work, a little hard work. Jagadīśa: (name withheld) is another problem. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jagadīśa: (name withheld), (name withheld)'s boy. He is only eight, but he is becoming like a street boy. Prabhupāda: So let him go to farm working. Farm working is for suitable... Bhagatji: He likes that. He'll play with cows. He likes dung. Prabhupāda: What is that? Jagadīśa: He likes dung. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Let him take care. He should take care. Therefore we must have all these engagement. He'll be encouraged to take care of the cows. Bhagatji: But he's not in Gurukula. How can you send him? He is with (father's name withheld). (father name withheld) left him for five days. (father name withheld) is keeping him. Prabhupāda: If the father takes care, that's all right. Otherwise he can go to Hyderabad. Hyderabad should be for gṛhasthas, for plowing, for growing, and flowers, like that. No education required. Bhagatji: He is not interested in education, not at all. Prabhupāda: No, no education... That is waste of... For such boys who are not interested, why they should be enforced, education? They are not meant for that. Education is for higher brain, sober brain. And not that everyone has to become literate. It is not required. He can do other work. Yes. Bhagatji: Prabhupāda means that according to the nature, you engage them. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. "You can do this? All right, do it. Why you should be forced to learn Sanskrit? Not necessary. Not necessary." Dhanurdhara: What of a boy who does the chanting nicely and the kīrtana nicely but doesn't do the school work nicely? Prabhupāda: Hm? Dhanurdhara: What of a boy who does the japa very nicely and... Prabhupāda: Well, japa... Whether his father is doing japa nicely, that is also doubtful. What to speak of children? Japa, children cannot... That should not be taken very seriously. Whatever he can do, that's all right. We should enforce, we should... But not that if he does not immediately, he should be rejected. No. *Jagadīśa: You've often said the first*-class intelligent men are the brāhmaṇas, second-class intelligent men are the kṣatriyas... *Prabhupāda: So we have to train like that, guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ, not that everyone should be Sanskrit scholar. Why? It is not necessary. There are so many other things. *Jagadīśa: The inclination depends on guṇa*-karma. *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Although by nature we should not enforce something. We should see for which work he is suitable. You should engage him. And we must have all departments of work*-the weaving department, the plowing department, the cow-keeping department, the Sanskrit department, the English department, the trading department. We should have all the departments. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Jagadīśa: Head, arms, belly, and legs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whichever suitable, that... One must be suitable for any of these. It is the guide's intelligence: for which purpose he is suitable engage him, like that. That is required, not that everyone has to become a big scholar in Sanskrit. That is not required. Let him come to gurukula, but if he is not suitable... Gurukula, this... So far character is con..., that is for everyone. Just like early rise in the morning, chanting, and going to the... What is the objection? Anyone can do it. That is practice. And for working, if he is not suitable for higher education, let him go to the farm, take care of the cows and grow food, flowers, fruits, eat, and dance and chant. Chanting, dancing, everyone will take part. There is no doubt. Bhagatji: How to mend him from lies? He speaks lies. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagatji: How to mend from lies? *Prabhupāda: That is by your good association. What lies he tells? Don't believe him at all. That's all. Take him that he speaks only lies. Then don't believe. Whatever he says, you force him to do. Take him that he speaks only lies. Why should you consult him? He's a liar. But see that he's working, that's all. Now we are getting so much land. We can develop. We can utilize everyone's service. That requires brain. Not that "He cannot do this. Therefore reject him"*-no, engage him in some other... Jagadīśa: One other point I want to make, and that is that until the construction is completed I think we should wait... Prabhupāda: There is ample place now where can live. Jagadīśa: But I mean to bring more boys we should wait until the construction... Prabhupāda: Why? Let them come. It is already there. It is not that the guesthouse is all filled up. Let them come. Jagadīśa: As many as possible? Prabhupāda: Why not? Jagadīśa: Okay. *Prabhupāda: Let them come. And arrangement should be made when it is... If Vṛndāvana is too hot, at that time we can send them to Mahabalesvara, or if we get that Madras place, that is very cooling, Nilgiri hills. That will be good recreation for them. They should be kept quite comfortably and built up, their character, education. That is wanted. There is need of some good first*-class men, ideal men. The world is full of rogues and thieves and bad character. (Hindi) *Bhagatji: I just told you that building, that Śiśu*-vidyālaya(?), Sarasvatī Śiśu-vidyālaya, you saw it with Guṇārṇava? Jagadīśa: Yes. Bhagatji: Prabhupāda asks about that. Jagadīśa: Oh. But they said no. Bhagatji: Who said? Jagadīśa: Guṇārṇava went to see them, Mr. what's his name. Prabhupāda: You cannot send Guṇārṇava. He is not fit for this purpose. You should go yourself. (Hindi) Jagadīśa: That's our report, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Do that. Yaśodānandana: Jaya, Prabhupāda. (end) *Room Conversationwith Dr. Theodore Kneupper-*-November 6, 1976, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: ...Kali*-yuga. Take little prasādam. Kali-yuga means this age. Kali-yuga means the age of quarrel and disagreement. Dr. Kneupper: Age of...? *Prabhupāda: Quarrel and disagreement. Because there is no standard idea, so I'll disagree with you, you'll disagree with me, and on slight provocation there will be fight. This is the age called Kali*-yuga. Dr. Kneupper: Do you see that nations will fight too? That there will be wars, things like that? Prabhupāda: Yes, so many difficulties. Even there is no war, the natural disturbance and foolish government will create such situation that people will become mad in hopelessness. Dr. Kneupper: Very dark. Prabhupāda: Very dark, yes. First thing, there will be no rainfall. Due to the sinful activities of the people, from nature the punishment will be, there will be no rainfall. I have seen already in Europe. Everywhere there is scarcity of rainfall. And on account of scarcity of rainfall, food production will be reduced. They will try to eat meat, killing, and maintain themselves. But that is also not very prospective. How long you will...? The animals will also die. Then in Europe they are doing that, that on account of scarcity of rain there is no grass, so they are thinking, "These animals die for want of food. Let us eat them." This is their intelligence. Dr. Kneupper: Well, do you see that many people will die because there's not... Many people will die. Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is no rainfall, either animal or men, they will die for want of food. Dr. Kneupper: What do you think would be the remedy or solution to the problem? *Prabhupāda: Remedy is they should admit that there is God. But they do not admit, especially the so*-called scientist rascals and atheist philosophers, politicians. They do not accept the authority of God. They think they will be able to manage things in their own way. And they say clearly, "There is no God." But there is nature. You can say, "I don't care for the government but the government force is there; police is there; military is there. Similarly, you may say, "Defy the control of government," but the agent of God is there, the material nature. That will punish you. There will be no rain, there will be no food production, and the rascal governments will take advantage of it, "food relief." They'll tax, as if by taxing they will be able to combat with nature. So three things we'll have to meet: no rain, no food, and government taxes. Then how people will remain in sane condition? They will become mad. Dr. Kneupper: But your teaching, doesn't it offer a way of meeting these problems? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are teaching people God consciousness. Then everything will be solved. Dr. Kneupper: You say that man does not understand nature. The scientist studies nature but yet he doesn't really understand it. Prabhupāda: Why they do not understand it? Why don't you understand that there is control over us? Where is the difficulty? Foolishly we do not try to understand. Do you admit it, that above us there is control? Do you admit? Dr. Kneupper: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: No, anyone. Dr. Kneupper: Some people do. Prabhupāda: Why others? That means they are foolish. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. Well, each person has his own thought. Prabhupāda: No, no, that means... He may be rascal, but it is a fact there is control over us. Just like if there is no rain, is it not control over you? Can you produce rain? Dr. Kneupper: I would say that there is a universal intelligence guiding everything. Prabhupāda: Yes, that means control. How can you deny the control over you? Dr. Kneupper: What do you understand is man's place in nature? Should he invent, let's say, electricity? Should he invent machines? Do you think these are good or should he just leave those alone? Prabhupāda: Well, these are good or bad. Suppose if there was no, this comfortable pad. That does not mean that I cannot sit. If there was no electricity, it does not mean we would have died. Dr. Kneupper: No. Prabhupāda: There was lamp. We were doing that. So we don't condemn electricity, but it does not mean because we have got electricity, we shall deny the authority of God. That is rascaldom. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. You might have improved from the oil lamp to electricity. That does not mean that you have the control over God. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, certainly not. Prabhupāda: So these foolish rascals, because they have improved little, they are denying, "Oh, now there is no need of God. That is opiate." What is that? Opiate? Jagadīśa: Opiate of the people. Prabhupāda: "They make the man foolish, God consciousness," and so on, so on. These scientists, they declare, "What is God? This is all superstition." Dr. Kneupper: But in the world there seem to be many different religions, many different faiths. *Prabhupāda: Religion you may have. Religion means to try to understand God. Any religion*-you take Christian religion or Hindu religion or Mohammedan religion-there is little attempt to understand God. So any religion which gives you knowledge of God and you understand what is relation with God, that is perfect religion. We have no quarrel. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think if all men, let's say, all the religions could try to come together... Prabhupāda: Religion means to understand God and to follow God's order. That is religion. Just like government and government law. So if the citizen understands what is the law of the government and abides by it, then he's a good citizen. Similarly, any person who understands God and abides by the order of God, then he is religious. Why do you stand? You may be Christian; I may be Hindu; *he may be Mohammedan. It doesn't matter. Everyone should understand God and the relationship with God and act accordingly. Then it is perfect religion. And if there is no conception of God, no carrying out order of the God, that is not religion. That is cheating. But generally they do not accept God-still, he is stamping himself that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian." He has no idea what is God, how to abide by His order, and they are fighting that "I am Christian and you are Hindu. Therefore we must fight." This is going on. Nobody understands what is God. Pseudo religion. Practically there is no religion. If there is no government*-you make your law; *I make my law*-then how there will be peace? That is the position. They do not understand what is God, and "I am Christian" or "Hindu" or "Mohammedan, so let us fight." That's all. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think that there is a special way that Hinduism looks upon man's place in the universe? *Prabhupāda: The Hindu religion is a vague term. It is a vague term. It is not clear. It is not clear. Real term is, it is called, Vedic principle. Vedic principle. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: Vedic knowledge means to understand God. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. So anyone who tries to understand God, he is in the Vedic line. Veda means knowledge, so as you get the stock of knowledge, that is called Vedas. But as soon as we say Vedas, they think it is Hindu. Mathematics is a science. So any scientific man will accept mathematics. Where is the question of Hindu mathematics? Gold is gold. If it is in the hand of Hindu, it is Hindu gold? Hindu, Muslim gold? Gold is gold. When we give the Vedic knowledge, they think it is Hindu idea. Dr. Kneupper: Are you saying that this knowledge has appeared in many forms? Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kneupper: Does it appear also in, let's say, Christianity, in Muslim, Mohammedanism? Prabhupāda: No, no, I say that every religion, there is an attempt to understand God. Why do they not understand God, what is God? Then everything will be solved. But they are decrying, "There is no God. God is dead," and "There is no need of God, now we have got science." In every step they are trying to kill God. That's all. Dr. Kneupper: That's true of certain people, but there are also many... Prabhupāda: Majority, they do not understand what is God. Dr. Kneupper: There are many sincere seekers, I think, in Christians and Moslems. At least I have met. Prabhupāda: Yes. That must be. There must be some sincere men. That can be admitted. But still the sincere man also does not understand clearly what is the meaning of God. "I believe in God." "I believe in God," they say. Just like in America they say, "We trust in God." But what is God, he does not know. So what is the meaning of this, "I trust in God"? That is a phobia. Dr. Kneupper: It probably means many things. Prabhupāda: If I say, "What do you mean by God," they cannot give any clear definition. And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, "Here is God. Take Him." But they have no knowledge. They will say, "They are presenting some Hindu god," and then they do not accept Him. Dr. Kneupper: What do you understand by that word God? Prabhupāda: God means supreme controller. Dr. Kneupper: Super? Prabhupāda: Controller. Dr. Kneupper: The master of the universe. Prabhupāda: That's it. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think that this concept is the special insight of the Vedic? Prabhupāda: No, no. You, as a philosopher, you can understand that there is supreme controller. Can you deny it? Dr. Kneupper: I would... Only with great difficulty, it seems to me. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is... You cannot deny. But they foolishly deny it. Therefore they are rascals. So how you can convince the rascals the right way? If you give me a dozen of dogs, can I convince him that what is God? Dr. Kneupper: Hardly. They have no capacity to understand. Prabhupāda: But they have no capacity. The modern civilization, we are creating dogs and hogs, so how they will understand God? Dr. Kneupper: Do you think there will always be a few who understand? *Prabhupāda: Certainly. Unless one... But if there is a class of men, ideal, who understands God, then people will follow. We require one moon. Then the darkness will be dissipated. But if in the millions of stars, what is the use? So they are creating millions of rascals, not one sane man, the modern civilization, the so*-called philosophers, so-called scientists. Don't mind. This is the fact. Dr. Kneupper: Do you basically reject the modern civilization? Prabhupāda: No, no. I say they are being foolishly trained. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Prabhupāda: The whole education system is bad. Dr. Kneupper: You see no hope that there will be change. Prabhupāda: There is hope. There is cent percent hope, provided you accept the right way. Dr. Kneupper: But would you say the right way would have to be, let's say, to be a follower of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: God means Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Kneupper: What about...? As I understand, in the *Gītā*... *Prabhupāda: God... Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. So God must be all-attractive, full controller. Our definition of God is Jagadīśa: These are new books in French, *Kṛṣṇa Book* and Upadeśāmṛta. This devotee has just brought them from Bhagavān dāsa. Prabhupāda: Oh. Thank you. When you have come? Devotee: Two days ago. Prabhupāda: Oh. You know French language? Dr. Kneupper: Yes. Yes, I saw a copy earlier today at the... The man who did the translation, I forget his name. He worked on the translation. It's very beautiful. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen it. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. I forget his name. It's very nice. Prabhupāda: This is French book, Kṛṣṇa. Jagadīśa: Umāpati. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, Umāpati. Prabhupāda: Oh, Umāpati. He is here. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I met him this afternoon. [break] Prabhupāda: ...give the idea of God. Dr. Kneupper: To try to teach, to try to help people understand. Prabhupāda: And now in India another danger is that so many rascals, they are declaring, "I am God." And this India, people have become so fallen down, they accept all these rascals as God. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think the same problem is here in India as in other countries? Prabhupāda: No, in your country there is no God. That is another problem. There is no God. And here rascals are God. The problem remains the same. You say frankly, "There is no God," but these rascals say, "There is God, but here is my God." And he says, "No, here is my God." No one knows the real God. Dr. Kneupper: How does one distinguish between what is a false God... Prabhupāda: This is the formula. Just like aiśvaryasya. Now, you have got some money, but you cannot say that "I have got all the money of the world." That you cannot say. You may possess some states, but you cannot say that "I am the owner of all the states." So God is the proprietor. You have got your country. Which country you belong to? Dr. Kneupper: United States. Prabhupāda: United States. So you have got certain area. But when you go to the seaside, then who is the proprietor of the sea? As philosopher, will you not think it? Dr. Kneupper: There is no proprietor, strictly speaking. Prabhupāda: Why no proprietor? A small tank if you dig, you immediately claim, "This is my tank," and such a big ocean, and there is no proprietor? As philosopher, how you can think like that? Dr. Kneupper: Well, I think of what is the basis of... [break] Prabhupāda: Suppose I go in a park. There is nice tank, reservoir of water, very decorated. And if I think, "There is no proprietor," is it not my foolishness? There must be one proprietor, but I do not know him. That is real sense. Similarly, everything has got proprietor. Why the sea and the land, the so many other things, why there is no proprietor? This is foolishness. Dr. Kneupper: I don't understand how this relates to distinguishing who are the true teachers... Prabhupāda: No, that I have already explained. Everyone is foolish now. You cannot distinguish who is thief and who is not thief. (Bengali) If you study everyone you will find everyone is rascal at the present moment. Dr. Kneupper: But surely there are some who are... Prabhupāda: Some must be there. There is no doubt about it. But they are so in minority. Who will hear about them? "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." The whole world is rascal. If somebody is intelligent, who cares for him? Just like people laugh at me that I am talking of God. I am not only talking. I am writing so many books. My only endeavor is to understand God, that's all. There is no sectarian. And I am selling my books all over the world. So not that everyone is foolish. They're trying to understand my presentation, big, big scholars, big, big philosophers. Yes. Dr. Kneupper: We have many of them in our library... Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is knowledge. If people kindly take it everything will be solved. But they have stubbornly denied, "No God." And I am stubbornly fighting, "Yes, there is God." That is the... Now the whole America is combining to fight against me, opposition, that "This man is brainwashing, controlling the mind, and our children are kidnapped." They are bringing these charges against us. Just like you have come. Have I kidnapped you? Dr. Kneupper: Oh, no. Prabhupāda: But these rascals say that I have kidnapped their children. Indian man (2): But judgment has been taken. *Prabhupāda: There must be judgment, but people have become so rascal. So I am trying to convince, although single*-handed, that "There is God," and they are bringing opposition. Indian man (2): That is the real philosophy. That is not only Indian philosophy; this is universal philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. God is for everyone. Indian man (2): God, the almighty powerful. Prabhupāda: God is not Hindu God, Muslim God, Christian. God is God. Now, when I say, "Here is God. His name is Kṛṣṇa. His father's name is Nanda Mahārāja," now they will laugh. Dr. Kneupper: Do you think if a person is to be a real believer in God he has to also worship Kṛṣṇa or speak of Him? *Prabhupāda: No, God means Kṛṣṇa. He has to understand it. Therefore so many books. God has many names, millions, of which Kṛṣṇa name is the most important. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. Then you have to understand the science of God. How Kṛṣṇa is God, that you have to understand. But for that reason we are publishing so many books. We have already published eighty-four books, simply in English language. And they are being translated in German, French, Portuguese, then Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Hindi, Bengali, like that. Dr. Kneupper: It's a very great effort. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we are getting response. Our books are selling like hotcakes. (laughter) Yes. Indian man (2): This is about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, the person. Indian man (3): Kṛṣṇa, the person. Prabhupāda: Here it is written. Indian man (3): Yes, the Supreme Personality. Prabhupāda: "*Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*." It is written there? Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I saw it. Prabhupāda: "Supreme Personality of Godhead." Yes. *Dr. Kneupper: This is a book of Kṛṣṇa. The complete resume of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Tenth Canto. Indian man (3): The person does not want to solve the questions. They want only to get riches. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, they don't want simple thing. Indian man (2): And what is the use of becoming rich man? It is all fruitless. Prabhupāda: Rich man you can become but for how long you shall be rich? The nature is so cruel; *at any moment he'll take away everything. Then what is the use of becoming? No, you become rich man. There is no... But you should know that "Although I am rich, powerful, everything can be taken by nature at any moment." Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. That is statement of God, that "Any moment... You try to become rich, powerful, and president or minister, that's all right, but any moment, I can take everything from you." So who will protect himself? They have no brain that "Whatever I have created, it can be taken at any moment." So what is that confidence? They have no inquiry even. That this is a fact. Either you become Napoleon, Hitler or Gandhi, or this or that, any moment everything will be taken away. "Get out." Not only that, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], you have to accept another body. And that is no guarantee what body you are going to get because fully under the control of nature. They therefore don't believe in transmigration of the soul. And that is very great botheration. They try to evade. But Kṛṣṇa says, God says, "You cannot evade. It is nature's law." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Within your body the soul is there. On account of presence of the soul*-you were a child; *now you are a grown young man*-the body has changed. You were a boy; now you are young man. So on account of presence of the soul, the body is changing. So when this body will be finished, the soul will exist. Therefore, naturally you have to conclude, there will be another body. Dr. Kneupper: Is it possible to escape the conditions of being in the body? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is possible. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And that is the real problem. As soon as you get a body, you are in trouble. Dr. Kneupper: What is the purpose of there being a body? Prabhupāda: Being in body means... What is the purpose of being in the jail? Is there any purpose? Dr. Kneupper: Some punishment. Prabhupāda: Yes. So because we are punished, therefore we are getting this body. Dr. Kneupper: Why does man... Why does the soul come into the body in the first place? Prabhupāda: Punishment. Dr. Kneupper: But he must have done something... Prabhupāda: You want to enjoy. Can you understand this? Everyone is trying to enjoy. So enjoy independently means that you don't care for... That is the fact. They don't care for God. So because they don't care for God, therefore they are punished: "You take care of your body." And as soon as you care for God, then there is no material body. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti. So God, therefore, teaches us how to get out of this body. Dr. Kneupper: That's the whole idea of mokṣa? Prabhupāda: Hm? Dr. Kneupper: Mokṣa? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is. Mokṣa means to stay in your original body. And bondage means we want different types of enjoyment, so God gives us the facility: "All right. Enjoy." If I do not make any discrimination of food... As human being, we must have discrimination. But if you don't discriminate, then you get the body of a pig. You can eat even stool. If you want to eat meat unrestricted, you become a tiger. Nature will give you facility. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Dehāntara. And there are 8,400,000's of bodies. So according to your desire, you'll get a body. God will give you. Dr. Kneupper: Is that what is meant when a man thinks when he dies, at the moment... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: He goes there. Are there many places, let's say, beyond the physical? Prabhupāda: So many places. Don't you see, night? Dr. Kneupper: No, I mean beyond this physical, three dimensional universe. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is only one*-fourth part manifestation of God's property. The three-fourth part is the spiritual world. Dr. Kneupper: Are there different reasons for these higher worlds? *Prabhupāda: Beyond this universe. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Find out. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. Find. He'll find out. Every information is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. *Dr. Kneupper: In the Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Mm. That is the beginning of God consciousness. Hari-śauri: Hari-śauri: "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." Prabhupāda: Purport? Hari-śauri: Purport: "Kṛṣṇa's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahmā. Kṛṣṇa's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter." Prabhupāda: There are two natures. One is material nature; *one is spiritual nature. The material nature, earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego, and beyond that apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. This is inferior nature. Beyond this, there is a superior nature. And that superior means, jīva*-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. That is the living entity. This big universe, this is material. But the living entities, because they are using this material for their so-called advancement, comforts... And because they have the power to utilize these material matters for their own purpose, they are superior. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. And because this nature is being utilized, one is being utilized and one is utilizer. The utilizer is the superior, and the things utilized, they are inferior, but both of them are nature, God's nature. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Dr. Kneupper: Is there time in the higher nature? Prabhupāda: Hm? Dr. Kneupper: Is there time? Prabhupāda: No. Higher nature means eternal. Dr. Kneupper: There are no changes in the higher nature? Prabhupāda: Changes when he gets into this material, inferior nature. He has to change the body, one circumstance to another, another, another, according to his desire. Just like you get a lump of dirt. You can mold it. You can make a pot. You can make a doll. So we are doing that. Child. The father has given birth to the child and father has given the child a lump of earth and he's playing. That's all. For both of them, the father is the proprietor. If the child wants to play, father says, "All right, play." So he's sometimes breaking, sometimes crying, sometimes laughing. This is going on. Dr. Kneupper: Then he goes back. Prabhupāda: Yes, if he gets sense. Therefore the father comes, that "You give up all this nonsense. Come home." Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: That's it. So everyone can become a great soul if he accepts the proposal of God. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śara... [Bg. 18.66]. Everything solved. But that he'll not do. Just like your first question was "How to solve these problems?" The problems will be solved as soon as he surrenders to God. But that he'll not do. He is bigger than God. He will make solution by his own plan. This is the difficulty. Dr. Kneupper: Is that because of the age? *Prabhupāda: No, this is the... Just like anyone who is in the prisonhouse. They are all criminals, but some of them are first*-class prisoners, some of them second-class, some of them third-class, but they are prisoner. Similarly, according to different time, people are more or less god..., godless. So this time is more godless. The prisonhouse is filled up with more third-class prisoners. Dr. Kneupper: How long does that period last? Prabhupāda: Well, now this age will... The duration of this age is calculated 432, 432 thousands of years. Out of that we have passed only 500,000..., no, five thousand years. Dr. Kneupper: A long time to go. Prabhupāda: Yes. But why should you wait for the long time? You can go back to home, back to..., immediately. That is our proposal, that "Why should you wait? This may be long time. But we... You give up the connection with the material world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then after giving up this body you go back to home, back to Godhead. Then you have no connection, this. But we are make, planning here, "We shall be comfortable." This is rascaldom. Indian man (2): We indulge our time... *Prabhupāda: We should stop all rascal plan and should take the plan given by God. Then it will be... Everything will be all right. Simple solution. The God's plan is there in this book. Let us take it. Then everything solved. But "No, we are scientist. We are philosopher. We are big man, politician. We shall make our own." Do and suffer. God has given freedom: "All right." Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. Kṛṣṇa said in the Bhagavad*-gītā after explaining Arjuna everything, then He asked, "What you have decided? Your plan or My plan?" So Kṛṣṇa said, "I am giving you freedom. Whatever you like, you can do." The plan is there. Now it is up to us to accept it or reject it. If you reject, you suffer. If you accept, you become happy. So we are requesting people, "Accept it." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. "Then you'll be happy." But who cares for us? He is making his own plan. Therefore he must suffer. Nature's law he cannot avoid. That's not possible. Nature's law, there is... [break] ...if God likes, immediately there will be rain. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ. That is also stated. So read that. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, annād. Jagadīśa: This one? Prabhupāda: Yes, the outside. So all philosophers, all scientists, all politicians, let us combine together. The formula is there. Read it. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda: That's it. There is no prescribed duties. Everyone is a butcher. Formerly there was distinction, "Here is a butcher; *here is a religious man." At the present moment everyone is a butcher. Who is religious man? There was division, at least one class, first*-class man, second-class man, third-class man. Then, if there is ideal first-class man, even the fourth-class, third man, he'll take the idea, "Oh, here is first-class." But there is no first-class man. All fourth-class men. So who will give idea? And they want to remain fourth-class. If you say that "You become first-class," they will laugh. "What is the use of becoming first-class?" First-class means, find out, śamo damas titikṣā, then, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what did you want? You asked me to do something... Prabhupāda: I want the light on the veranda. Jagadīśa: It's on. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: And if I teach that "I'll teach you how to become truthful," they will laugh. People will say, "Can anyone exist nowadays, simply becoming truthful?" Then damaḥ, self*-controlled. If I say, "Come here. I shall teach you how to control your senses," he will laugh, that "What is this nonsense? We shall enjoy life and shall control senses?" This is the description of the first-class man, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava, saralatā, simplicity. No one is prepared to become first-class man. They will laugh. These are all primitive ideas. Dr. Kneupper: You think there is nobody like that? *Prabhupāda: Not nobody, there are. But people generally will not like, that "These are primitive ideas, to become truthful, simple, and controlling the mind, controlling... These are all imaginary things. How one can live in the struggle for existence by becoming truthful?" They will say like that. Therefore everyone is fourth*-class. And the second-class man, kṣatriya? Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: This is kṣatriya. Now, who is kṣatriya? A fourth*-class man, he never seen battlefield and by vote he becomes president. And here kṣatriya means yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. If there is fight he must come forward first of all. He is in his palace, and he's engaging common men, "Go and fight." When there was Battle of Kurukṣetra Arjuna and Duryodhana, they came first. Because the battle was decided as soon as the leader is dead. No more fight. So they used to come first. This is kṣatriya. Where is that kṣatriya? And they are becoming politicians simply by votes, all third-class, fourth-class men. What he'll do? Everyone is trying to keep his position by hook and crook. How he'll think of the people? How they will be happy? He is thinking of his own happiness. And these are politicians. There is no kṣatriya. There is no brāhmaṇa. And there is no vaiśya. What is the vaiśya? *Hari-śauri: Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. *Prabhupāda: Hm. A vaiśya means he should provide food. So food means agriculture and giving protection to the cows. If you have got sufficient food grains and milk, the whole food question is solved. And these rascals, they are not giving protection to the cows, but they are killing cows. So there is no third*-class men even. All fourth-class. So how you can be happy under the control of fourth-class men? There is no first-class men, no second-class men, even no third-class. That means all fourth-class, fifth-class. That's all. This is the human society, combination of fourth, fifth, tenth-class men. Tenth-class. The fourth-class... There are fourth-class men and more than that, fifth-class men, uncivilized. Aborigines, they are fifth class. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ [SB 2.4.18]. There are so many. In the human civilized... Civilization means there must be first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Then rest all fifth-class, up to tenth-class. But at the present moment there is some fourth-class men and all fifth-class, sixth-class, up to tenth-class. So how we can be happy? There is no first-class men, there is no second-class men, not even third-class men. Who is caring for agriculture? They are preparing Goodyear tire. Now eat tires. You rascal, eat tires. How long you'll eat tires? If there is no customer for tire, that means... So that is coming. And I went to Detroit about six months ago. There're factories. They have manufactured the wheels, huge stock. That means they are not selling. And the Goodyear Tire, they advertising, "So many millions tires we are manufacturing." You have been in Detroit? Yes. They're proud that "We have manufactured so many tires, so many wheels." The time will come when there will be no purchaser for tires and wheels, and they'll starve. That is coming. What they will do? If they become hungry there is no food grain. For some time they will eat, killing the cows, and then there will be no food, and what these tire and wheels will do? But there is no first-class brain that "We are wasting time by manufacturing tires and wheels. Without wheels we could live, but how we shall live without food grain?" There is no brain, no first-class men, no second-class men, no third-class men. Dr. Kneupper: There are farmers who produce... Prabhupāda: Well, in your country there is some adjustment because it is very big country and you are all intelligent people. In other countries they... But even though you have got resources, if you not properly utilize it, then the bad time is coming. You should expect. If your energy is all engaged in manufacturing tires and wheels, then who will go to the... Actually I have seen in your country. Now the farmers' son, they do not like to remain in the farm. They go in the city. I have seen it. The farmers' son, they do not like to take up the profession of his father. So gradually farming will be reduced, and the city residents, they are satisfied if they can eat meat. And the farmer means keeping the, raising the cattle and killing them, send to the city, and they will think that "We are eating. What is the use of going to..." But these rascals have no brain that "If there is no food grain or grass, how these cattle will be...?" Actually it is happening. They are eating swiftly. "The cattle will die. Before they die, let us kill and eat." Actually it is happening. In Italy they killed because the problem is twenty thousand cows. This is going on. They do not care that killing is sinful because they don't care for God. This is going on. And sinful, sinful, sinful, everyone will be punished. The nature's law will act. Tag wande gao(?) (Bengali) There is a Bengali proverb, tag wande gao(?), that "One man wanted to take statistics, 'How many thieves are there in this village?' So when he began to take statistics, he saw everyone is thief. Then he said that 'What is the use of making statistics? This is village of thieves, that's all.' " So it is... At the present moment this is the position. If you make a statistics who is sinful and who is not sinful, you will find all sinful. And because they are sinful, they decry the existence of God. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante... Find out this, seventh... Because they are all sinful, they deny the existence of God. This is the position. Read it. Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: That's it. So you'll find everyone of this description, either sinful, or lowest of the mankind, or rascal, or puffed*-up with false knowledge, but the basic principle is: no God. So the only solution is let them first of all become God conscious. Then all solution. Otherwise there is no hope. Dr. Kneupper: The problem is very complex... Prabhupāda: Yes, it must be complex. They will create complexity. Dr. Kneupper: And the solution is very simple. Prabhupāda: Solution. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām... And that we are preaching, that "You become God conscious. Everything will be solved." And who is caring for us? Rather, they are giving opposition, that "These rascals are kidnapping our sons, brainwashing, controlling the mind," creating courts case. Just see. This is going on. Dr. Kneupper: Do you see as a... When you're describing that if the world were going to be God conscious, it would... Prabhupāda: Everything will be solved. Dr. Kneupper: But you were describing the caste system or the... Prabhupāda: This is not caste system. It is natural. There is always an intelligent class of men in the society. So they should be, what is called, listed. They should be trained up properly. Dr. Kneupper: How do you envision...? Would you envision...? *Prabhupāda: Just like you are a philosopher. So you should not make only theories, "perhaps." But actually, by your philosophy, you establish the existence of God. Then you are philosopher. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya... [SB 1.5.22]. Find out this verse in the Bhāgavata. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka. If by your philosophical knowledge you prove, "Yes, there is God," then your philosophy study is perfect. And if you philosophize, "There is no God," that is useless waste of time. To gain popularity, if you make philosophy like... In your country there are so many rascals philosophers, Darwin, Freud. They are all rascals. They are predominant. Dr. Kneupper: I think there is some misunderstanding that many Americans may have about the teaching that you have. Maybe you can clarify it. Prabhupāda: So you clarify it. It is your duty. You are philosopher. Dr. Kneupper: Well, that's why I am trying to understand it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: I think it's something like this, that... I've learned it from other of your devotees, or devotees of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, we have got our books. You are philosopher. You can read. You can understand the whole thing. There is no question of "This devotee, that devotee." We are giving in writing. So we cannot deny that. Dr. Kneupper: The question though is that there seems to be an advo..., that you advocate that there be a kind of Vedic society, that you are... *Prabhupāda: No, Vedic means knowledge, intelligent society. Why do you understand Vedic? Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda*-vido jñānena. This Veda word coming from knowledge. When I say that "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Is there any objection? If I say that "Here is Mr. such and such, a man of knowledge," so is there any objection? Dr. Kneupper: Is there a what? Prabhupāda: Is there any objection? Hari-śauri: Is there any objection. Prabhupāda: Will anybody object? Dr. Kneupper: It depends on whether the man shows himself to be... Prabhupāda: No, no. If I present you that "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Everyone welcomes knowledge. Dr. Kneupper: Yes, but one has to also show that he has knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is next. First of all, if I say that "Here is a man of knowledge," where is the objection? Now, whether you are man of knowledge, that will be tested next. But if I introduce you that "Here is a man of knowledge..." Similarly if I say, "Here is a man who knows *Vedas*," so why the objection? Knowledge is for everyone. Why do they take, "Oh, *Vedas*, oh, it is Hindu"? Immediately you reject. Dr. Kneupper: I don't think it's so much a question of rejecting the *Vedas*... *Prabhupāda: No, Vedas, they do not know what is Vedas. They think it is Hindu. This is the difficulty. As soon as you say, "Bhagavad*-gītā," "Oh, it is Hindu idea." Dr. Kneupper: Well, many, many people do... *Prabhupāda: But that means they do not know what is the meaning of Bhagavad*-gītā, what is the meaning of Vedas. Unnecessarily they put some outside... Just like they are doing now. They do not know what is knowledge, and they are accusing us that we are brainwashing. We are forbidding our devotees, "Don't eat meat." Oh, they are taking it: "It is revolutionary. Eh? How these men, they are stopping?" Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (4): (Bengali) [break] *Prabhupāda: So this is difficulty. If I say, "Here is a person who knows mathematics," why there should be... Any person who is interested in mathematics will welcome him. So similarly, here is Vedic knowledge. Vedic knowledge means real knowledge. Here is Bhagavad*-gītā, the knowledge of God, but they misunderstand. They think, "Oh, we have got another God." How God can be another? So people should be sober, that we are giving books. They should understand. And it is accepted by the educated class, big, big professors, big, big philosophers. It is not blind faith. Just like this version of Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: [Bg. 2.13] "As we are changing body even in this duration of life, similarly, when this body is finished, then another body," so where is the difficulty to understand? But they will say, "It is Hindu idea." Fact we are presenting, that "You are changing your body. When you came out of the womb of your mother, the body was so small. And then little bigger body, little bigger body, little bigger body. Now you are full grown young man." So the body is changing, everyone can understand, but I can understand also that "I had so big..., small body and this body." Then body is changing; I am existing. Then where is the difficulty of the transmigration of the soul? Dr. Kneupper: Many people do accept. *Prabhupāda: But as soon as we say, "Oh, this is Hindu idea"*-reject immediately. This is science, and they are taking "Hindu idea." Indian man (2): The problem is that identification only. Otherwise it is universal philosophy. Prabhupāda: It is universal, but they are taking it as Indian. Indian man (2): In order to identify that, Vedic, let's say Indian, actually that is not Indian. *Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be. Knowledge is knowledge. It may be Indian or American. It doesn't matter. Just like university. Some student from India go to university in America to study higher knowledge. So that means that because he has gone to America, that is American knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge. So they should take on this background, but they are thinking that we are spoiling their children, brainwashing, controlling the mind, because against their principle, against their uncivilized way of life: meat*-eating, illicit sex, intoxication. This is uncivilized life. Why a man, civilized man, shall eat meat? He can prepare so many nice things. He has learned how to produce food, food grains. When they are uncivilized-there is no food; *they do not know how to grow food*-they can eat animal in the jungle. But if after becoming civilized, if you are eating the same thing, then what is the difference between civilization and not civilization? You have learned. And especially in your America you can get all nice foodstuff. You have got sufficient grains, sufficient fruits, sufficient vegetables, sufficient... Everything sufficient. Why you should eat meat? This is uncivilized life. They could not give up the uncivilized way of life. And when you teach that "You become civilized. Give up this all nonsense. Don't eat." "Oh, it is brainwashing." You see? We are teaching them to become civilized, and they are taking it brainwashing. *Dr. Kneupper: Is that a teaching of the Bhagavad*-gītā, that one should not eat meat? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not... Meat*-eating is third-class man's eating. It is not denied. Amedhya. But to give us our life, don't kill cows, because it gives you milk, very substantial food. If you want to eat meat, you can eat the hogs and dogs. But don't kill the cows. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. This is special. It is not forbidding meat-eating, but don't eat cows' flesh. That is loss. It is a great loss to the human society. If they do not have sufficient milk production, then their brain will be dull. They will not be able to understand subtle things. Therefore it is better to avoid it. But if you cannot avoid, you can eat some inferior, useless animals. But don't touch the cows. This is Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, go-rakṣya. He never says, "Pig rakṣya." You can eat pig. You can eat the goats, the lambs. There are so many small useless animals. They are eating dogs also. The Chinese people, they eat dogs. So you can eat dogs, hogs, so many other animals. But don't touch the cows. This is God's instruction. And they are advertising that "These Hindus, they are so fool, they are worshiping an animal, a cow." They do not know what is the economic value of this cow. In the beginning of your life you want milk immediately in the morning. And you are killing the mother? You are civilized? Do you think? You take milk up to the point of death. In South Africa, before killing the cows, they drag out milk and then send it. Milk is important, but because they are uncivilized, they do this. You take milk. Instead of killing, you prepare so many nice things from milk which is good for brain, good for intelligence. But they do not know because uncivilized. Foolish fourth-class men. So we are trying to bring them to become first-class men, and they are accusing of brainwash. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." We are teaching that "These boys, they are becoming first-class." Anyone will worship them. How nice they look, how behavior, how their character. We are creating this, and they are accusing, "Oh, they are kidnapping our children." Why you are going? Eh? Why you are going? Indian man (2): (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Ācchā? So this is our position. Now you are philosophers. You try to understand the whole philosophy and combine together. People have become all fourth*-class, tenth-class, uncivilized men. They should be given the idea of God consciousness. I don't say only in Western country. Everywhere this is the problem, all fourth-class men. So there is possibility to bring the fourth-class men to the first-class. That is educational. It can be done. There is no difficulty. So this is the education, how to make fourth-class men or fifth-class men to come to the first-class standard. What is that? Which verse I wanted? Jagadīśa: Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, suppose you are a well known philosopher. If you say, "There is God," so many people will hear: "Oh, here is a big philosopher." Therefore your studies of philosophy will be perfect when you establish, "Yes, there is God." Otherwise it is useless because you will waste your time and you'll waste... Already they are Godless. Dr. Kneupper: How does one establish clearly? *Prabhupāda: That requires thinking. That requires knowledge. Therefore we are giving so many books. You can study. You can present the case nicely with argument, philosophy. That is your duty. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānu... When you are able to describe God very philosophically, scientifically, mathematically, then your education is perfect. Dr. Kneupper: Are there any books particularly that focus on all this? *Prabhupāda: Every... There are so many books. There are so many books. The primary book is the Bhagavad*-gītā, yes, as it is, if you take it as it is. If you amend it to your whimsical way, then it is gone. Therefore we are presenting. This word we have added, "Bhagavad-gītā As It Is." Don't try to amend it. Then it will be foolishness. *Dr. Kneupper: I wanted to know if Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, you'd have to read Sanskrit, wouldn't you? Prabhupāda: No, we have this English translation. This is in French translation, in German translation. Dr. Kneupper: How does one decide... There are so many translations. How does one decide... *Prabhupāda: That depends on your philosophy. You are reading so many books. How do you select, "This is nice." That depends on your philosophy. But if you accept it that it is spoken by God, then there is no argument. But why should you accept it, spoken by God? You read it, whether how much logical, how much full of knowledge. Then you can say. The same thing. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ: [Bg. 2.13] "Within this body there is the soul, and because the soul is there, therefore body is changing." So anyone can... Any layman can understand. Things are there like that. So there is no difficulty. If we take, "Oh, this description, the transmigration of the soul-Hindu idea." Why Hindu idea? It is science. As soon as we consider it "Hindu," then it becomes sectarian. Then you will say, "I have got my Christian idea. Why shall I take your Hindu idea?" Dr. Kneupper: What is your view towards Christianity? Prabhupāda: Christianity is to some extent, but you have got different edition of Christianity. So far I know, as soon as they say, "Christian," immediately the question is, "To which Christian party you belong?" What is that? Hari-śauri: Christians, yeah, Protestants, Methodists, Catholics... *Prabhupāda: So which is correct Christianity we do not know. But we have no such thing. There is no party. Bhagavad*-gītā, there cannot be any party. If anyone makes any party, he is immediately cancelled. But at least we believe in the Ten Commandments. Now, Lord Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." But why all the Christians are simply busy in killing? That is my first question. Dr. Kneupper: Not all of them. Prabhupāda: 99%, they are maintaining all big, big slaughterhouse, all Christians. And Lord Jesus Christ ordered, "Thou shall not kill," but they are killing. What kind of Christian he is? Disobedience to the order of Christ? And still he is Christian? These things are going on. Then again party, this ism, that ism, that ism. First of all, all of them are disobeying the Ten Commandments, and then there are parties. So which one you'll accept? *Dr. Kneupper: There's no such diversity of interpretation of the Bhagavad*-gītā? *Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from Bhagavad*-gītā, I am talking of Christianity. How you can disobey the orders of Christ and you become Christian at the same time? Dr. Kneupper: There's always people falling short of what their... Prabhupāda: That's it. That means they are all useless. If you are Christian, how you can defy the order of Christ? You will disobey the orders of Christ; *still you are Christian? Just like in India they are all denying the Vedic culture, and still they are Hindu? All these rascals. So therefore, I say, the whole world is full of rascals. If the Christians accept this word, that Lord says, "Thou shall not kill." Why shall we kill? Welcome. Never mind whether Christian or Hindu. Welcome. Similarly, in India, if they accept Bhagavad*-gītā, welcome. But everyone is rascal, mūḍha. Nobody cares for God, nobody cares for God's messenger. All rascals. This is the position. They are creating God. They are creating religion. They are creating sect. This is going on. Dr. Kneupper: Even though they are sincere... *Prabhupāda: That should be educated from the very beginning. Therefore we are opening gurukula, sane brain. Otherwise their brain is spoiled by so-called bad education. I inquired from your state secretary that "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so why not spread this God consciousness*-what is God? You blindly say, 'God in Trust,' but what is God? Do you know? So why not spread this science?" I received no reply up to date. They might have said, "Here is a crazy fellow. Nobody has inquired like this." That's all. They do not like to enter into the controversy. Actually they do not believe in God, but they write, "In God We Trust," is it not? Dr. Kneupper: That's what they write. Prabhupāda: Yes, but they don't believe in God. Hypocrisy. Because if they trust in God, then they could not cheat that "I am paying you one thousand dollars by some papers." This is cheating. And promise, "In God I Trust." Is that money? So this cheating is begun from the government. Now, how the people will be honest? Everywhere, in all government, they are giving you some papers and you accept it as money. This is not brainwash. Just see. They are educating people that "I promise to pay. This is money," but actually he's receiving some papers. This is not brainwash. And we are talking of God, that is brainwash. Dr. Kneupper: Perhaps when people... Prabhupāda: No, no, this is the present situation. When people will be honest, that is future. Dr. Kneupper: But I mean now, when they make these confrontations and give you these difficulties, perhaps it will give your people a chance to teach them and clarify... Prabhupāda: Well, that we are doing, but this is the opposition. That our boys are trained up. They are trying to meet the opposition. But my point is that such a nice thing we are giving. Why they should oppose? That means uncivilized. Why good thing should be opposed? They say, "In God We Trust," and we are speaking of God only. We have no other business, and they are opposing. And they write, "In God We Trust." Hypocrisy. "If we believe in God, we trust in God, all right, they are talking of God. Let us hear." That is sense. That Patrick? Patrick? He kidnaps our devotees. Hari-śauri: Ted Patrick. Prabhupāda: Yes. And by force trying to give him meat. So now, if educated men of your country, they come forward, understand this philosophy, then combined effort... My philosophy is that American and Indian, American money and Indian culture, combine together; the whole world will be changed. That is my philosophy. It is coming to some extent... [break] *Jagadīśa: "...International Society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The two should cooperate. The blind man should carry his lame companion, and the lame man should give guidance to his blind friend. In this way both will benefit. Similarly, the wealthier Western countries should assist the materially exploited East, and the East, particularly India, should help the spiritually blind West to understand scientifically the actual higher purpose of human life. To offer India's transcendental science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the West, Prabhupāda sailed from Bombay to New York City in 1965. After a year of great personal struggle, he established the first center of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In the next few years he attracted hundreds of sincere disciples and opened centers in dozens of American and European cities. He also established gurukula schools and farming communities based on the ancient Indian patterns. In 1970 Prabhupāda returned to India and with the assistance of many Indian gentleman and some of his disciples, he established ISKCON centers in Bombay, Delhi, Calcutta, Madras, and the rural holy spots of Vṛndāvana, Lord Kṛṣṇa's place, and Māyāpura, West Bengal, the birth place of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Soon he attracted many Indian disciples as well, who opened centers in Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Chandigarh, and in several rural areas. Today ISKCON has about one hundred āśramas, gurukula schools, temples and farming communities around the world. But according to Prabhupāda, his books are his most important contribution. In the last ten years he has published over eighty volumes in sixteen languages. Scholars in India and abroad have praised Prabhupāda's books as classics, scholarly and authoritative. Literally crores of his literatures are sold annually, and this figure is almost doubling every year. How is it possible to sell so many books about Kṛṣṇa? Girirāja, president of the ISKCON center in Bombay, answers, 'People all over the world are looking to India for transcendental knowledge. They know that India's ancient Sanskrit literature speaks of lasting happiness beyond the frustration of material life. They are eager to buy our books because they know that we are presenting the genuine Vedic culture. In fact, many Westerners come here to discover the real India for themselves, (indistinct) life experience. For this reason we are building a model Vedic community at our Juhu center in Bombay, providing all the modern amenities for scholars, students, and sophisticated inquirers from abroad as well as from India who can study the original Indian culture and practice. The center will include a Vedic library, theater, prasādam restaurant, gurukula school, an international guesthouse, as well as a temple and āśrama.' ISKCON is also building a model Vedic community in Māyāpura near Calcutta based on cottage industry and agriculture. The important principle is that everyone must be gainfully employed. In ISKCON's Māyāpura project hundreds of persons operate spinning wheels and more than a dozen handlooms, dye the cloth, and (indistinct) popular design, process rice and dāl by hand, crush sugar cane for sugar products, and manufacture by hand, wooden shoes and other items of daily use. On twenty*-five acres of agricultural land in Māyāpura, ISKCON is developing and demonstrating scientific farming procedures such as crop rotation, organic fertilization, and using improved strains. ISKCON is also cross-breeding cattle from Canada and Australia with Indian cows to increase milk production. Thus the community provides (indistinct) daily needs, acts as an agricultural development and demonstration center, and additionally feeds thousands of people twice every week. Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON's plans, the Māyāpura project will extend into a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand..." Prabhupāda: We have applied for 350 acres of land from the government. The process is going on. If we get, then we shall spend crores of rupees for... The description is... Jagadīśa: "Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON plans, the Māyāpura project will extend to a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand inhabitants, its own university, airport, and stadium. It will also claim the world's largest planetarium with 410 foot high Temple of Understanding..." [break] ...civilization. Dr. Kneupper: It sounds like a beautiful project. That is near Bombay, now? Prabhupāda: No, that is near Calcutta. Dr. Kneupper: Calcutta. Prabhupāda: About sixty miles. Dr. Kneupper: Have they progressed much now? Prabhupāda: Yes, the enquiry is finished. Now government is considering to give that land. (indistinct) that land. There were many others, land offers in Hyderabad, but I wanted to start this institution in the, on the birth site of Lord Caitanya. Otherwise we have got better land. We have asked government for 350 acres but we have already bought in Hyderabad, 600 acres. Here also we can get immediately 500, 600 acres, like that. We have already got another plot of land, 100 acres in Ahmedabad. So there are so many lands available but I wanted to start this project in Māyāpura, the birthsite of Lord Caitanya. Therefore we are (indistinct). If they say no, then we shall attempt it somewhere else. Dr. Kneupper: In Calcutta also there is a project? Prabhupāda: Hm? Dr. Kneupper: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is not very important. Dr. Kneupper: Well, it's been most interesting to meet you and hear you. I... Unfortunately I have to go to Agra this evening. So I really want to thank you and I will remember this and I will read your writings and think very deeply on what you... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: ...said to me and (indistinct) this... Prabhupāda: Therefore I recited also (indistinct). It is the real utilization of every education. *Dr. Kneupper: Right. But the Bhagavad*-gītā is very wonder... It's... Since I first read it it's been one of my favorite... Prabhupāda: You are reading? Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I... I try to read it frequently, because it gives me some real spiritual... Prabhupāda: And if you want to know further, you can write to me. Dr. Kneupper: Good. I'll take back your blessing to Slippery Rock when I go back there. Prabhupāda: Yes, and there, so many old friends, you can offer them. Dr. Kneupper: OK. Dr. Morrison and Dr. Sharma... Prabhupāda: There is Sydney Weld there, when I went. Dr. Kneupper: Very good. Is the friend which you were... You were staying with somebody in Butler? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: Is he still there? Prabhupāda: No. That friend was one of my friend's son. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Prabhupāda: The boy went there for learning engineering. But he settled there and married one English girl. I became his guest for about a month. Then I came to New York. Dr. Kneupper: I see. Was the place Slippery Rock, was that the first college...? Prabhupāda: No, the place was Butler. Dr. Kneupper: You were in Butler, right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: And then you spoke at a college. Prabhupāda: In the college, yes. Dr. Kneupper: Every time I go to that hall I remember the story that you spoke there. Prabhupāda: Oh, they still say. Dr. Kneupper: Yes. You must have left some kind of blessing upon it. It has a nice atmosphere. Prabhupāda: That was in 1965. Dr. Kneupper: Such a short time and so many changes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: The growth, the temple here, beautiful. On my next trip to India... Prabhupāda: Yes, you can come and stay here or in Bombay, we have got... Dr. Kneupper: But I want to see the one, the city when it's constructed. That would be really... Prabhupāda: Oh, that is... Yes. Dr. Kneupper: I hope that is... Calcutta will be a success story. Prabhupāda: You have got the contemplative man with you. (indistinct) Indian man: Yes sir. Dr. Kneupper: This will be over 300 acres if it's... Prabhupāda: Three hundred fifty acres. Dr. Kneupper: It's a large city. Fifty thousand, did you say? People? How many people were there? Jagadīśa: Fifty thousand. Dr. Kneupper: Fifty thousand. Prabhupāda: Expecting fifty thousand. The real (indistinct). *Devotee: That's what we're trying to bring together here in this city. (indistinct*-conversation going on) and then all around, the different communities, vaiśya community, the merchant community (indistinct), their own communities. Dr. Kneupper: I see. *Hari-śauri: According to the Vedic system (indistinct*-more than one person speaking) Jagadīśa: Read? Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. *Devotee: "(indistinct) which developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Kṛṣṇa. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in should aspire to the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu*-māyā do not understand that the culmination of perfection or self realization depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are attracted by viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation of the Lord or His different energies because the Lord has set in motion by His inconceivable energy, actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is therefore different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always is different from them. When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord the whole process becomes absolute. The Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him. Therefore all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, and all the branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The (indistinct), writers, poets, and celebrated literature are generally engaged in writing sensuous subjects, but if they turn (indistinct) the service of the Lord, they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord and by doing so they become immortal. Similarly science and philosophy also should be applied to the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all-powerful. Similarly all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All knowledge not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glory of the Lord. And that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factual hari-kīrtana, for the glorification of the Lord." Dr. Kneupper: I will remember this. And I will read, look into your writings much more closely... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kneupper: ...when I get back. Could I ask you if you might sign... Put your name in... Autograph? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Kneupper: Could you do that please? Prabhupāda: So, you can give him that book. Devotees: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Would you like to read this book? Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I will read that, yes. Prabhupāda: So I'll sign in that book. Dr. Kneupper: Okay, okay, fine. Yes, that would be good. Very good. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Kneupper: Thank you very much for your time... Prabhupāda: Yes, I thank you very kindly. (indistinct) educated boy like you. Dr. Kneupper: Good. I will communicate what you said. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Kneupper: I think... As soon as I (indistinct). Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...all human society. It is not a sectarian... Dr. Kneupper: I'm very glad I had the chance to meet you, to learn... Because when you meet... When you hear things second source... Secondary source, it's not like... Prabhupāda: Do you think our presentation is all right? Dr. Kneupper: Yes. (indistinct) And I'll try to help the people... My mother is from Texas, my family lives there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Kneupper: And I'll try to help them understand better what the situation is. So... Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. [break] Devotees: Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya! (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 11, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: So I saw that one, that Mr. Maiman (?), he has got so many boxes all down his room. So I asked, "What are these?" "No, these are different cinema house collection. The ticket, half of the ticket, is put into this box before entering. So I count this slip. Then I can understand what is the income. That's all. Let them do whatever that." So I am simply asking, "How many books they are selling?" (laughter) If the sale is going on, "All right, that's all right. Let them do whatever they like." The books are printed and distributed? That is all right. Then other things, you do whatever you like. Never ask. Where is Arundhati? Hari-śauri: Probably still upstairs. Prabhupāda: Ask her to make that bitter melon separately in little quantity. Hari-śauri: Just fried or... Prabhupāda: No, boil and then fried. Make it soft. So any letter? All right. [break] Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's... [break] Antardhyāna: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Everyone is going to die. Who is going to live? Who is here? Can you show me anyone who is going to live? Can you show me? Antardhyāna: No, everybody's going to die. Prabhupāda: So today or tomorrow, everyone will die. So where is the anxiety? Die or not die, tomorrow or today, but one should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Why one should be depressed? And everyone is going to die. I am going to die tomorrow, he is going to die day after tomorrow, he... Everyone will have to die. Who will live here? So what is the anxiety? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, she'll die here. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Nobody will live. Don't be anxiety. That's all. Anyone who has come to this material world will die. One is going to die today; another is going to die tomorrow. It is a question of first and second, but everyone will die. So before death one should be complete in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success of life. The tree is standing for thousands of years. So what is the use of living like that? A tree cannot chant Hare Kṛṣṇa but lives for thousands of years. Do you think that kind of living is very worthy, standing in one place, cannot move even, and what to speak of chanting? So you have got the chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Utilize that. Don't be anxious that "I am going to die." Who is going to live? Why don't you understand that? Nobody is going to live. So before death one should be complete in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success. Manīṣā: (Antardhyāna's daughter, terminally ill) But if one is not, Śrīla Prabhupāda, what will happen? Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: If one is not complete in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness then what will happen? Prabhupāda: She will get again birth in a human body. That is guaranteed so that he'll get again chance of chanting. That is also great gain. Ordinary person, he does not know what body he is going to get next body. But a person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, chanting, he is guaranteed. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41]. He is guaranteed to take birth as human being in a very sacred family like brāhmaṇa and very rich family. So I have to go. Manīṣā: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is going to live here. Everyone is going to die. Before death, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Manīṣā: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Don't be worried. Antardhyāna: She is worried Prabhupāda, about... Prabhupāda: What is the worry? I have already said everyone is going to die. Antardhyāna: She is worried about seeing the Yamadūtas. This is what she is worried about. Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, always think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Manīṣā: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: This is our business. The cats and dogs cannot do this. That is the advantage of human form of body. Antardhyāna: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Manīṣā: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Manīṣā: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 13, 1976, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: ...devotion, activities. Who can take more care than the father and the mother? So you combine together, make a batch of good character, ideal character in the whole world. There is no ideal character. Everyone is drunkard and meat*-eater or woman-hunter. What is the civilization? Hog civilization. [break] ...civilization. Work hard, get some money, and spend it for intoxication, illicit sex. This is civilization. Is it not? They have no idea how to make civilized. Devotee (1): I was hearing that before I left England there was some trouble in Scotland over the rules about the bars and drinking. And now they want to make a rule, a law, that the children can be allowed into the bars under their parents... They make it a big social... *Prabhupāda: They allow the children sit down. They take soda water and the father*-mother drinking. I have seen it. They are learning from the father and mother from the begin... Hari-śauri: My father used to... Every Sunday they used to go to the pub, and then for Sunday afternoon, as a special treat, they would all get..., we'd be given a glass of beer. *Prabhupāda: Just see. Father*-mother take... Because they think it is civilization. Elderly boys, the father mother tell, "What is the wrong, illicit sex? Take woman, take car. Enjoy life." I have seen it. They know, "This is life. Why...?" Therefore they say, "Brainwash. This Swamiji is controlling their minds and brainwashing." That is their charge. Wash, ne. The brain should be operated, surgical to take out all rubbish things from the... It is called membrane? Pradyumna: Cerebrum? Prabhupāda: Cereb? Hari-śauri: Cerebral. Prabhupāda: Cere... Not... It is all gobar. Take out. (pause) Ne, make khicuḍi. Devotee: Puṣpānna rice? Prabhupāda: Little, little. Devotee: Always keep it simple, puris, one, and one other thing? Prabhupāda: No, one kind. Either puri or puṣpānna or khicuḍi, like that. You cannot make. Devotee: Tonight I made sabji and puri. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is easiest, puri and sabji. Similarly, khicuḍi and sabji, puṣpānna and chutney, like that. Temple means feeding them with prasādam. In Bombay the Sunday feast going on? Surabhi: We don't have so much facility to feed them because there's only the temple floor so there's always a big crowd and we have to do two shifts. So sometimes... Prabhupāda: When it will be complete, more facility. Surabhi: Oh, yes, then it will be... Everything... *Prabhupāda: Take prasādam, see drama, read books, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bas. And if you like, you can live with us. So where is the difficulty? Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā [Bs. 5.37]. (pause) That American politician has predicted that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, within ten years, they will capture our government." (laughs) So do it actually. Then it will be very nice. It is not... Simply take the people in your favor; the government is yours. That they are afraid of. The young boys, they are taking Hare Kṛṣṇa movement seriously, so the government can be changed in their favor. After all, it is democracy. So you can do it. You become president. You become senator. In America it is possible. And if America accepts... What about this new president? Or... Formerly I heard about him that he is religious man. Surabhi: His mother is... She was working in India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Surabhi: So she's very favorable towards India. She was some type of social worker. Prabhupāda: His mother? Oh. Then at least he has got some good thinking. Surabhi: He said... There's a movie star in Bombay, and he is, he's a friend of this Carter. So Jagat Puruṣa is going to approach him. He's a very good friend of..., because his mother, she was working in India and she knew this family. So they have a lot of friends in India. Prabhupāda: At least let them understand the philosophy. Balavanta may see and explain the philosophy. Jagadīśa: Balavanta knows him. Pradyumna: Did Balavanta meet him? Jagadīśa: I think so. Balavanta... There was one man, a black man who was running for mayor at the same time that Balavanta was, for Atlanta. And that black man dropped out of the race and supported Balavanta. Prabhupāda: He's a black man. Jagadīśa: Yes. Then, later on, that man he was appointed Lieutenant Governor under Carter. So Carter and this man are close, and through this man Carter knows about Balavanta and the movement. Prabhupāda: You have written one letter? Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Balavanta is very intelligent boy. He can do that. Bring that spring water, little. You can type this? Jagadīśa: On your letterhead? Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one of the students is just about fifteen, and he's been initiated now for a year and I'd like to recommend him for second initiation. [break] Prabhupāda: ...good hope for preaching in China. I have received letter from Trivikrama Mahārāja. What she is doing, Carter's mother, here? He's in India? Jagadīśa: Not anymore. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jagadīśa: She must have been a missionary. Hari-śauri: Part of the Peace Corps or something? Jagadīśa: Oh, that's it. She worked in the Peace Corps. Prabhupāda: Peace port? Jagadīśa: Peace Corps. Prabhupāda: What is that? Jagadīśa: That's an American organization. It sends out people all over the world to help the... Hari-śauri: Like a social worker's organization. Devotee: Like when they have earthquakes and hurricanes in countries, the Peace Corps will go there and they will do all the nursing and doctoring and helping people get homes... Prabhupāda: So unless there is earthquake, they will not work. Jagadīśa: No, that's not the Peace Corps. Pradyumna: They send Peace Corps... Tejas was in Peace Corps. Tejas was in the Peace Corps. He was sent to India. In Telegu Nagara he was helping with agriculture. He would go to some village, underdeveloped. He would teach them how to plant nicely, fertilize, different things. Hari-śauri: He knows about that? Pradyumna: Yes, he knows all about agriculture. Hari-śauri: Why don't we send him to Hyderabad? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: He worked there for about... Prabhupāda: Let him go to Hyderabad. Pradyumna: He knows all about agriculture. Prabhupāda: Mm. Hari-śauri: And he speaks the language too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: It was Kennedy's idea, the Peace Corps. Kennedy started. They started it because many young men did not want to go in the Army, but Army was forcible. So they said, "If you go in the Peace Corps, then you don't have to go in the war corps; you don't have to go in Army." So many people took that: "Oh, we'll go in the Peace Corps. We'll go as an alternative." Prabhupāda: Good idea. Surabhi: It has lost its popularity now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Surabhi: It is not very popular now. Prabhupāda: Why? Surabhi: In fact, in India they have ordered to leave practically. Prabhupāda: Hm? Surabhi: They say they had some connection with the CIA. Prabhupāda: That is politics. Surabhi: Yes, but... *Prabhupāda: He was a politician. That you cannot blame. Politics require all these things. A politician cannot be a saintly person. That is not possible. For politics he has to do so many things. That is necessary. Just like Arjuna wanted to be a nonviolent. Immediately it was condemned by Kṛṣṇa, "What is this nonsense? You are a military man. Nonviolent." And similarly, politicians, they require all this. Businessman must deal in black market. It is inevitable. Otherwise he cannot improve. Because the world is bad, you, if you become honest, then you cannot make pros..., cannot become prosperous. Sate sārtham samācaret.(?) Brāhmaṇa's dealing must be very straight and honest. They are not meant for politics or business. They are for transcendental knowledge. Kṛṣṇa conscious person should be all-inclusive. He must be a politician, he must be a brāhmaṇa, he must be a kṣatriya, he must be a śūdra-everything. All-inclusive. Because he is transcendental. In otherwise he is neither a brāhmaṇa, neither a śūdra, neither a... Yes. Nāhaṁ vipro na ca nara-patir na yatir vā. Neither of these. In other side he is everything. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. As Kṛṣṇa is sometimes cowherd boy, politician, sometimes dancing with, artist*-He is everything, not one-sided. So all food is finished? Devotee: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All vegetable also. Devotee: All vegetable, all puris. Prabhupāda: That's nice. [break] ...Hindi book or English book? Devotee: Hm? Prabhupāda: You sold English book or Hindi book? Devotee: Hindi magazine. Prabhupāda: Magazine only. Devotee: Yes, everyone took magazines. Prabhupāda: Very good. Devotee: I think there were some other books also. I didn't check that. Prabhupāda: Something he must take, he will read, understand our philosophy. [break] ...Carter is good. Surabhi: Yes, I got a letter from Dharmādhyakṣa in Surat two months ago. He was invited to the White House after our... He had an exhibition at Vancouver, that habitat. So it was a world conference of solution to life, living. So he was invited. He met some of the officials there. He was invited to Washington, but he had to wait for Carter to become the President because then it would be fifty percent more favorable because they had a relationship. There these people... Then he said there's a great chance they will help us in India. So he is going to go there and speak with the... Prabhupāda: In India. Surabhi: No, Washington, D.C. That's in America. They invited one of our devotees there to discuss this Māyāpura and all this social type of... Dharmādhyakṣa. He's writing for that Back to Godhead magazine. He worked with Gurudāsa together. Prabhupāda: His article, one is there? Hari-śauri: Yes, "Simple Living High Thinking." You saw that. Prabhupāda: So he met him. Surabhi: Not Carter. He met the government officials who were representing the United States Government at that exhibition, and they were very favorable. They were one of the most favorable, he said, the United states. Prabhupāda: Yes, our "plain living, high thinking" is very nice idea. Hari-śauri: Actually it's the only practical solution. Jagadīśa: Mr. Carter is a farmer, peanut farmer. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jagadīśa: That's how he gained his money. Surabhi: He's the biggest peanut farmer in America. (laughs) Pradyumna: He started out in the military, he was in the Navy. Then afterwards... His father had a peanut farm, and then his father became sick, so then he gave up his Navy thing. He came back to take care of the family. Then he began that peanut business. Now he doesn't have to do it any more because now he has made millions. He is wealthy man, very wealthy. [break] Prabhupāda: ...capture American government. Then all world will follow. As they are known as Communists, we should be known as Hare Kṛṣṇas. We are already known as such, Hare Kṛṣṇas. Keep that name. People at least chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jagadīśa: Hare Kṛṣṇa Party. Prabhupāda: It is already well advertised all over the world. So keep this name, Hare Kṛṣṇas. "Vote for Hare Kṛṣṇas." Anywhere you live, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. All right, you can go. (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 14, 1976, Våndävana Room Conversation:Devotee: M. Channa Reddy. Prabhupāda: Why? Devotee: About getting letters, this letter for the court case in America. Prabhupāda: Court case? Oh. Devotee: He had given us nice questioning, and some from our... Members, who are members of Parliament and other persons like M. Channa Reddy himself, he said that he would approach the External Affairs Minister and ask him that the External Affairs Minister, he can make some sort of protest, either official or unofficial, about this type of dealings that are going on. Prabhupāda: So he has not given anything, writing. Devotee: No, but what he said... He said that he is the head of the state of U.P... So he said if he gives a protest to the American government directly that "This is not..." Prabhupāda: There is no question of protest that... This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine movement. Devotee: I had gotten a letter from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa that he also wanted some letter in the form of protest. Prabhupāda: Protest? Why this nonsense suggestion is done? These are rascal things. You have no experience and you do something which is... Devotee: I asked the governor to give a letter of... Prabhupāda: Why did you approach the governor without asking me? You cannot make the governor so cheap thing that you will go always and ask something. Unnecessarily spend money and waste time. Devotee: I met him in Delhi. Prabhupāda: He was there? But how governor can protest? Devotee: What he suggested in this case... *Prabhupāda: He will suggest hundreds of things, but he cannot protest personally. That is not... What is the court case? That we have to place before the court that "This is genuine cultural or religious movement." We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we are trying to spread. This is genuine, the simple thing. We have not manufactured anything, "transcendental meditation" or like that. That is not our business. We are presenting simply what is stated there in the Bhagavad*-gītā. If somebody said that "Bible is not genuine," will it be accepted? Thousands and thousands are claiming to be Christian on the basis of... Similarly millions and millions of people in India, they know Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā. How it is not genuine? That we have to prove, that's all. It's not that... Repeatedly we are speaking that what Kṛṣṇa said, that is perfect. That's all. This is our business. Who will object to that? You could not present to the governor that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... Anyone can say, "Yes, it is based on Bhagavad-gītā. It is genuine." Any Indian can say. You have to take that to present in the court. If from official, it is... How the official can deny it? It is genuine. Now, about this sewer line, after all... (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 15, 1976, Våndävana Hari-śauri: So this is a... In the battle between the demigods and the demons. Prabhupāda: Hm. Hari-śauri: The verse was Prabhupāda: Hm. *Hari-śauri: "Purport: The cloud of dust covered the entire horizon, but when drops of blood sprayed up as far as the sun, the dust cloud could no longer float in the sky. A point to be observed here is that although the blood is stated to have reached the sun, it is not said to have reached the moon. Apparently, therefore, as stated elsewhere in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, the sun, not the moon, is the planet nearest the earth. We have already discussed this point in many places. The sun is first, then the moon, then Mars, Jupiter and so on. The sun is supposed to be 93,000,000 miles above the surface of the earth, and from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam we understand that the moon is 1,600,000 miles above the sun. Therefore the distance between the earth and the moon would be about 95,000,000 miles. So if a space capsule were traveling at the speed of 18,000 miles per hour, how could it reach the moon in four days? At that speed, going to the moon would take at least seven months. That a space capsule on a moon excursion has reached the moon in four days is therefore impossible." Prabhupāda: (chuckles) So my reason is alright? Hari-śauri: Oh yeah. *Prabhupāda: Modern scientists (Hindi*-about challenge) Guest: (Hindi conversation) Prabhupāda: Whatever Mars going? Finished. Hari-śauri: Yes. They don't put anything about it now. Guest: (Hindi conversation) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Grapes are sour. Full of sand. (Hindi conversation) [break] *Devotee: ...thirty*-six thousand students so it's in a very, very nice area, just for the type of people we'd like to reach, you know, intelligent. And also it's a... Actually what it is, it's a motel that's had its, you know, it has no business there. It's surrounded by other more expensive... Prabhupāda: So there is one building within the land? Devotee: No, it's like... Prabhupāda: What is this? Devotee: OK, this here's a diagram here, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: This is the street right here and you enter here and there's buildings here, you know, for a restaurant. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: Right here. We're going to make a... Prabhupāda: That is already there. Devotee: Yes. We're going to make an extension of Govinda's Restaurant. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: And here you have the offices where you can make an apartment and here we have thirty units, small, about the same size as the rooms upstairs. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee: Which is good for like āśrama, you know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: It's not luxurious, it's just small rooms. In here we have a small swimming pool. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: It's not too big. And all these are fully grown trees with, there's some palm trees here. Then in the back... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) for the trees are here. Devotee: Yeah, did you see the tree? OK. In the back here, this is, we have fruit trees, different types of fruit trees like a... Prabhupāda: Oh, very, very good. Devotee: Pomegranate, you know and some peaches and plums. Prabhupāda: Pomegranate is a very nice fruit. Devotee: Yes. And this area right here is more or less empty and available for... These are small bushes here, these are small bushes. So we are proposing to construct a temple right about in here, then use the rest of the land for farming and growing flowers for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. You are destroying these trees. Devotee: Well, see these trees, they're not real tall all the way, there's... Prabhupāda: Oh, this is green also. Devotee: Yeah, this is greenery around here and occasionally there's a big tree and then along the back here's... Prabhupāda: Big trees are this side. Devotee: Yeah, exactly, and also in here around this area and around in here. And in the back here we have like a small desert garden with cactus and different things. Prabhupāda: It is desert? Devotee: No, it's not a desert but that's the way this rear portion has been landscaped, you know. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: It's made to look like a desert but it's actually very lush and it looks a lot bigger than two acres. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...these things are (indistinct), you can keep cows. Eh? Devotee: I'm not sure if we can keep cows in there because it's inside of the city and sometimes they don't allow the cow within a certain zoning. And now the only problem we might run into with this is that it's not zoned right now for a church or a temple but... Prabhupāda: Don't say "temple." Devotee: Excuse me. Prabhupāda: You say "community project." Devotee: Community project? Prabhupāda: Community project. Devotee: Oh, community project. Well... Prabhupāda: Don't say church. Devotee: OK. But the thing is if... The first thing that it can be rezoned for is a church and a temple. Prabhupāda: There is no need of rezoning because we are Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa community. So wherever we live we worship Kṛṣṇa. It is not a public show, it is our own private worshiping Deity. I can keep Deity in my home. Just like Christian Deity, Mary, Jesus Christ, in the room. There is no objection. *Devotee: I don't think there's any objection to that but according to Guṇagrahi (indistinct*-mic noise) ...problem, San Diego, like the government there doesn't approve too much of them and each time they try to buy a nice piece of land, you know, somehow... Prabhupāda: That's why I say, "Don't call it temple." Devotee: Don't call it temple. Prabhupāda: No, community project. Devotee: Community project. Prabhupāda: Project. That's all. Devotee: OK. I can tell them that. But he says... Prabhupāda: We are just establishing a community project. But because we are Hare Kṛṣṇa people so wherever we live we worship Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Don't say temple. Devotee: Don't say temple. Prabhupāda: No. Jagadīśa: A problem may come if they say, "But you invite people to come." Prabhupāda: Friends I must invite. For feast. This is our community project. Hari-śauri: Once you're in there, then it's... In Melbourne we told them that it's just strictly private, it was going to be like a monastery, there was just going to be a few monks who were going to do our worship, like that. And then when we were in we just had the Sunday feast and everything and everything was fine. Devotee: Well actually, the way... Prabhupāda: Śaṭhe śāthyaṁ samācaret. That is that if the other is cheat, you become cheat. Why you should be honest? Śaṭhe śāthyaṁ samācaret. Devotee: Well, in this case actually I don't think there will even be a problem if we said "temple." Because... Prabhupāda: That is your... I say, "Don't declare it a temple." It is our community, living quarters, residence, that's all. We live like this, our style of living is this. How you can...? Guest: Just like the usual was doing something at home. Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't say it is temple. That's all. (chuckles) Kill law by law. (indistinct) ...and safest position is that you don't say it is a temple. Devotee: Well actually we're not coming on to them like we are, you know, Hare Kṛṣṇas or anything like that. We are going in karmi clothes. Prabhupāda: No, no, there are many communities, gṛhastha, in our Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. We don't say... Devotee: According to the escrow we say that we want to build like some sort of a church and the zoning laws for that particular area... Now if you want to rezone, the only thing that's allowed to rezone for is for churches and temples, they have it written. Prabhupāda: You can take help from Detroit. He knows very well. That was rezoned. You did it. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows everything. That was a residential quarter. Now we have made it a temple. Devotee: So we... Prabhupāda: What is the process? Jagadīśa: Well we had, because we were dealing with a Ford, the grandson of Henry Ford, because he was wealthy, he had a lawyer friend who had a connection in the zoning board so... Prabhupāda: Influence. Jagadīśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But what was the law point? You cannot influence by... *Jagadīśa: No, we... The point was that that particular property was secluded. By making it a multi*-residential dwelling with a public worship facility there was no inconvenience to the neighbors. That was the main thing. We went around to all the neighbors in the neighborhood. We got them to sign a petition saying they had no objection to our holding meetings there and having multi-residential and that was our strongest, besides our connection with this lawyer, having the neighborhood support was our strongest weapon. And the neighbors all were very warm. Prabhupāda: The black people, they are simple. They are not so (indistinct). If they are satisfied... Jagadīśa: We gave them prasādam and a little chanting and they were satisfied. Devotee: Actually the neighbors around here, all along here are businesses on either side. Prabhupāda: Then they'll suffer? Devotee: Then there's no... Actually even if we ask for rezoning, they cannot refuse us because according to their laws the only thing that this particular land can be rezoned for, number one on the list is churches and temples. But... Prabhupāda: No, you do it, but if there is doubt you can say, "No temple." Devotee: Right, right. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct*-talking together) ...take the name of a temple. Devotee: This is a minor problem in this case. It used to be a major but it's minor now. Prabhupāda: Community project. That's all. We are Hare Kṛṣṇa community, it is our project. We live together, that's all. Devotee: Jaya. Well I'll pass that along to Guṇagrahi. Prabhupāda: I think I went to San Diego. Devotee: Yes, about two years ago. Prabhupāda: Mm. So... Devotee: You see... Prabhupāda: There is a big park, San Diego. Devotee: Balboa Park. You had one lecture there. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So how far it is from the park. Devotee: About ten or fifteen miles. You see it is more in, away from the ocean and it's located right in the middle of this college community where most of the residents are students of the university and the university has... Prabhupāda: So you can get the chance of attracting students. Devotee: Oh yes, yes of course, this is a main thing there of the location is in being around the student community. Prabhupāda: San Diego seaside, I went. There are so many swimming clubs. Devotee: In La Jolla. Prabhupāda: The underneath, under within water they're swimming. *Devotee: Skin*-diving, underneath the water. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: San Diego. Guest: San Diego. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is this? Jagadīśa: It's in California. San Diego, California. Prabhupāda: No, what's... Devotee: See, at the present moment the San Diego temple, they used to have two buildings and they have been more or less evicted from the main building and they had to move the Deities to the residential quarters and they had to move all the brahmacārīnis out to another building. Prabhupāda: Oh, they have left that building? Devotee: Yeah, they left that building, the main building and now the Deities are in the one over, the which used to be the residential quarters and it's just a little small room and it's very... Prabhupāda: Inconvenient. Devotee: Very inconvenient. Prabhupāda: So start this temple. Devotee: So this is in escrow now, it's already started and it will take ninety days and it all depends on the rezoning. Jagadīśa: The zoning has been applied for? Devotee: Yes, it's been applied for and the chances of them refusing us is very slim. Jagadīśa: When is their next meeting? Devotee: I really couldn't say, I don't know but it will be soon. There's one boy who's working on it. I forgot what his name is. I have a bad memory for names. But anyway, I and some friends of mine would like to construct a temple right here. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee: Right there, just... Prabhupāda: Do, according to choice. Devotee: And we were thinking about a design like a large dome. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: You know and then on each corner, kind of like, what do you call those? Devotee: Cornice? *Devotee: You know with a little thing. And then right in the middle of the dome, we want to put like a big gold, not real gold but you know, gold*-colored thing with flags. Prabhupāda: Flags. Devotee: Put flags on the top. Right exactly. This was our initial idea. Prabhupāda: So why don't you make a temple like this? You see? *Devotees: (indistinct*-talking together) ...attractive point. Prabhupāda: But then you cannot deny that it is not a temple. Devotee: Yeah, that's true. Actually... Prabhupāda: Best thing is this type temple. Devotee: Like here. With three domes. Well see, it all depends on the cost. I have some cost estimates here that... We figured out it's somewhere between thirty and forty dollars per square foot to build. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Devotee: Now if we build a temple that's 6,500 square feet, quite a large size, that would come out to $260,000 and on down to 3,600 square feet which would be about $144,000. I've collected about $100,000 on my own and I have another person who promised somewhere between fifteen and twenty*-five and by the time that three or four months have... Actually we couldn't build until about six or seven months anyways so by this time... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...that Kṛṣṇa will (indistinct) money. *Devotee: Also another thing, this is... You may remember when you were in Los Angeles last time, Kṛṣṇa*-kanti and Mangalananda asked you if they could do this contemporary style music with Kṛṣṇa lyrics. So this is the very first copy. Actually there's not much to see it's just like any other album. This is the first test pressing. Hari-śauri: He has a cassette which you can listen to some time if you want. Prabhupāda: Yes, I can listen. Play it. Devotee: You would like to hear something? Prabhupāda: Hm. Hari-śauri: It's done to like modern popular music. Prabhupāda: Mm. Hari-śauri: With the lyrics about Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Why don't you keep one record player. Hari-śauri: Well record players are a bit bulky to carry. They have it on cassette. Prabhupāda: No, this time anyone comes, ask them to bring one record player. Japanese record player is very cheap. Devotee: Yeah, I think that's a good idea to have because all these albums are coming out now. Hari-śauri: But you can get them all on cassette... Prabhupāda: Between fifteen dollars, sixteen dollars. Hari-śauri: We can't carry it all. We've got so much baggage we couldn't possibly carry all... Devotee: Actually cassette is more practical. Hari-śauri: These cassettes we can get, we can have everything on cassette. Prabhupāda: All right. *Devotee: OK, this is... Actually they're probably sent by (indistinct). This is quite nice too. (Change of Heart starts to play*-break) Prabhupāda: Yes. (voices in background) Hari-śauri: This is a small swimming pool and palm trees. (more background voices) Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation) the epidemic is not going to stop. Devotee: No. Prabhupāda, I've been given a cow, in America. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: This Yamunā Devi? Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: One of her cows, Premadhana. She's given it to us. We've had it now for five or six and we have built a nice area for her. We have ten acres of land for her to roam around on. She's very happy. Prabhupāda: So take your country (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then surely we shall get the government. This is the prediction of a politician, "Kṛṣṇa conscious, the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is spreading like a epidemic. That I'm afraid within ten years they'll get the government." Devotee: I know. Prabhupāda: If the young man joins, immediately. Hari-śauri: If they find out that that's our actual plan... Prabhupāda: Why you should not need? It must have. Hare Kṛṣṇa party. You have got Democratic Party, Republican Party, another party, Hare Kṛṣṇas. Bas. Devotee: Prasādam party. Prabhupāda: No, Hare Kṛṣṇas. That will be main thing. At least they will criticize Hare Kṛṣṇa and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) That's all. We want. (Sanskrit) It is said that. (Sanskrit) If we respect chanting, it is very good, even by neglecting chant, that is also good. Just like Ajamila, he chanted. He never meant "Nārāyaṇa." He meant his son, but he got result. Ante nārāyaṇa smṛtiḥ [SB 2.1.6]. He never meant that he's calling for Nārāyaṇa. He did not follow up bhakti. But Nārāyaṇa took care of it that "Now anyway he's chanting 'Nārāyaṇa.' He must come to Vaikuṇṭha." Devotee: This is what (indistinct) in San Diego. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Sixth Canto. Hm? Devotees: Sixth. Prabhupāda: First verse. Devotee: (enters) There is one gentleman, Mr. Saxena, he is retired inspector of schools from Rajasthan. Prabhupāda: Oh, he has come? Devotee: Yes, shall I call him? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: He wrote me a letter. He met one of our travelling parties and he heard that I was here and he was interested to, in our educational program. So I invited him to come here, perhaps to teach Hindi, and so he's here. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: Prabhupāda, this is some honey, this is from my wife. And this is from Viśakha, Yadubara's wife from Los Angeles. She asked us to... And this is from all the devotees in San Diego, this is ghee. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: Cow ghee? Devotee: Yes. They heard that you were in need of some ghee, so they have... (indistinct) (pause) Prabhupāda: That's all right. (Hindi conversation) [break] Guest: (Hindi) ...doctor, high specialist. He's in charge of high department. [break] Prabhupāda: ...ācari prabhu jīveri śikāimu, you cannot teach others if you are not fixed also. Otherwise it will be useless. It is useless, āpani ācari prabhu jīveri śikāimu. If you are fixed up in principles, then you can teach others that principle. That will be effective. If you smoke, and if you tell others that "Don't smoke," that is useless. That is useless. [break] ...first of all give up this habits, bad habits then you can teach, it will be effective. Mr. Saxena: (indistinct) ...of life. Prabhupāda: You can prepare little daliya, that's all. (Hindi) Unfortunately they do not try to understand the science of Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Saxena: (Hindi) Vidhi. Prabhupāda: Vidhi ne. One must know... Vidhi, that practical and theoretical. So vidhi, mostly theoretical and when you practice it, it is jñāna, vijñāna. Jñāna, vijñāna. So jñāna means theoretical knowledge and vijñāna means practical application. Mr. Saxena: Is religion a practical knowledge? *Prabhupāda: Religion means, that I was discussing, religion means the law given by God. That is religion. They do not know it. They do not know what is God, they do not know what is the words or order of God. Whole world is like that. They profess some religion but religion means the law of God. But if they do not know what is God, then how he'll understand the law of God? That means there is no religion. All cheating. Dharmaḥ projjita kaitavo, the Bhāgavata rejects all kinds of so*-called religious system, accusing that they're all cheating. Cheating, all cheating. If you do not know God, what is the meaning of their religion? It is simply cheating. If you have accepted a style of religion without any understanding of God, then it is simply you have been cheated. And that is going on. Everywhere. (Hindi) Mr. Saxena: I have been to all these four corners of India, Badarikāśrama, Rāmeśvaram, Jagannātha Purī and Dvārakā and he told me what they say, Viśvavarūpa Śaṅkarācārya, he's in Purī Śaṅkarācārya and (Hindi) ...and about 800 rooms in that Paratmaniketan. Prabhupāda: Eight hundred? Mr. Saxena: Eight hundred rooms. Very big temple and the daily income is about more than 1500 rupees per day, donation. I still get from three months. His speech is at nights, their sannyāsīs. But if you see that practical life, you realize all this tīrthas, what you call? They are no more tīrthas now. All (indistinct) use that word shopping centers, what we call. I have been to the Sivananda Ashram. Some Cidanandaji is there. Sivanandaji is no more. When I went to Yoganiketan, there is one Gangesvarananda... Prabhupāda: Cidananda. Mr. Saxena: Cidananda is there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Saxena: He is a disciple of Swami Sivananda, Divine Life Society. Prabhupāda: He is dead now? Mr. Saxena: No, Sivananda is dead. Prabhupāda: Not. *Mr. Saxena: Cidananda is the in*-charge of that institute, Divine Life Society. There is another Yogesvarananda. There is Upaniketan trust. They are having three years' course for regular yoga. And there is some (indistinct) Mahesh Yogi, transcendental meditation (indistinct) samādhi. I lived there for fifteen days, tried to get something out of that. Everywhere I found there is no... We are after peace. There is no peace there. Devotee: Prabhupāda, you say that religion is the law of God. So that means there can only be one religion. Prabhupāda: Yes. God is one, (indistinct) for everyone. (indistinct) Yes. Devotee: So all others are just contaminated. Prabhupāda: No, if they follow the rules, God, God said that "You just surrender unto Me." Devotee: So natural laws. Prabhupāda: This is the religion. God says that "You surrender unto Me." This is religion. So if one does not know what is God and where to surrender, then where is religion? Is it wrong for God to say that "You surrender unto Me"? Can you say like that? Mr. Saxena: How, how can you say? Prabhupāda: If God is the supreme, He has the right to say like that. Just as the government can say that "Must obey." So if the government can say this, the head of the supreme government, if He says that "You surrender." What is wrong there? Mr. Saxena: Nothing wrong. Prabhupāda: And that is clear. Simple, two words. Unfortunately they want to deny God. They take the place of God, all these Māyāvādīs. Ānandam, mostly. So that is rascaldom. How you can take the position of God? Mr. Saxena: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But they want to take the position of God. "Everyone is God. I am God, you are God." This is they are claiming. Mr. Saxena: Bhagavan Rajneesh. Prabhupāda: So many rascals. Why Rajneesh? There are many other. Mr. Saxena: There are others, Satya Sai Baba, and so many others. Prabhupāda: This is going on. What? People also do not ask that "How you become God?" That's also so foolish. They accept any rascal as God. That Rajneesh, what he is? He advertises "Bhagavān," and there are many rascals, they accept him. What he has done? (Hindi) Mr. Saxena: How to stop it then? Prabhupāda: Stop, but unless you are intelligent, how it can be stopped? If the people are not intelligent, the cheaters will cheat. It is very... Mr. Saxena: But Swamiji, mostly educated persons, Ph.D, D.Litt., M.A., postgraduates, they are the followers of this. *Prabhupāda: Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. They are supposed to be very learned but actually they're fools, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. These so-called educated, they are bereft of knowledge. They have no common sense. That I was asking this debauch, as God. That also ignorance. He does not know what is God. Mr. Saxena: Yes, because education is no education now. Prabhupāda: He does not know. We have got the definition of God, Devotee: 1.5 million copies. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) 1.5 million, the *Kṛṣṇa Book* we have sold. *Jagadīśa: Kṛṣṇa Book is taken from 10th Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, summary study. Prabhupāda: *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*, up to date since 1970, we have sold 1.5 million. Devotee: And every day we sell more. Prabhupāda: Ha, yes. All these Kṛṣṇa consciousness books, we are selling daily five to six lakhs of rupees. All over the world. I have estimate. That religious book (Hindi). It is full of religion and philosophy, still they are selling. Mr. Saxena: That is an achievement. Prabhupāda: We have got, not only in west outside India, in India, we have got standing order from all universities, libraries, and many other places. Complete standing order value is 40,000 rupees. Mr. Saxena: This is one aspect, of course, appreciable, but another aspect is that of teaching. That should be... Prabhupāda: Teaching is going on. Mr. Saxena: I mean for teaching too. As far as books... Prabhupāda: Seven centers, hundred centers. Mr. Saxena: Yes, there should be centers too, could give right interpretation to all these things. Because interpretation means, everybody is not in contact with Sanskrit. Jagadīśa: But in the books Śrīla Prabhupāda has given elaborate purports. Prabhupāda: Word to word meaning. You have seen our books? Mr. Saxena: I have not seen this. *Prabhupāda: Show him. Now it is already there in the book. This is Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Mr. Saxena: Now he prepares to go out. Prabhupāda: Hm? Mr. Saxena: He prepares to give us some inspirational power so that we may go out and teach all these things to those persons. First we should be able enough. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: (showing book) Sanskrit, English transliteration, word for word. Mr. Saxena: I see. *Jagadīśa: Translation and purport so anyone who doesn't know Bhagavad*-gītā can read, "Bhagavad-gītā is the widely read theistic science..." Mr. Saxena: Thank you, thank you, thank you. You must have also this missionary spirit. (Hindi conversation) So I am at your disposal now. Prabhupāda: Yes. You give him one single room. So we have given word to word meaning, translation, purport. This book also we are selling, millions. Mr. Saxena: I see. *Prabhupāda: We have published the small book and big book, eighty*-four. *Mr. Saxena: Eighty*-four. In that film I saw, that how those foreigners, they are working in the press and preparing all those books and sending abroad, I have seen that film. The only request is this that you once make us away from this saṁśaya. Saṁśayātmā vinaśyati. There should be no saṁśaya... Prabhupāda: If you increase your attachment for Kṛṣṇa, then it will automatically. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. There is a verse of Rūpa Gosvāmī that one gopī is warning another gopī that Mr. Saxena: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Mā prekṣiṣṭhāstava yadi sakhe bandhu*-saṅge 'sti raṅgaḥ. If you want to enjoy the company of your society, friendship, and love, then don't see. It will be finished. For this reason they are now bringing charges against us that we are spoiling these young men by brainwash. There is great opposition in the United States to our movement that we are spoiling these young men by giving some speculation, controlling over their mind, and simply injecting some ideas in their brain, brainwash. Mr. Saxena: (Hindi conversation) Prabhupāda: Who said this? Mr. Saxena: I don't remember. Prabhupāda: Then it is very popular phrase. Mr. Saxena: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: The thing is anyone who may accept. That means he did not believe in the Deity worship. That is a fact. So how a real devotee can condemn Deity worship? Mr. Saxena: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Nārakī*-buddhi. This has been described, arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti buddhir. Nārakī-buddhi. Mr. Saxena: Nārakī. Prabhupāda: Hm. Mr. Saxena: I think now you require rest. Devotee: (indistinct) Mr. Saxena: (indistinct) put into so much strain during your rest hours. (indistinct) I will know the timetable. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: I will give you. Mr. Saxena: Yes, you will give me. So I'll keep this one for my room. Prabhupāda: No, you cannot keep. This is a sample. Mr. Saxena: Acchā. Prabhupāda: Pictures you can get, not... Mr. Saxena: Ah, yes, yes, it makes no difference. Your preachings are more than pictures. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've been considering... You told me to think about... (end) *Morning Walk-*-November 17, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Bhagatji may go to Hyderabad. I am sending him. Akṣayānanda: That will be a great loss for me. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that you must be able to compensate yourself. Akṣayānanda: Yes, Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: You should know how, especially dealing with the municipality men. [break] For Rādhā*-Mādhava? *Caraṇāravindam: Something to do with Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa Mandira in Vṛndāvana. I think one is Puruṣottama. Anyway, the first night we did a very nice program, kīrtana, and everyone was joining in dancing with us. We were dancing and they were all joining. And the second night they cancelled our program. We were trying to sell books in the front of the pandal and they were giving us trouble for that. Prabhupāda: Oh, they are envious. Caraṇāravindam: They are envious. Very envious. Prabhupāda: Why you joined them? Caraṇāravindam: I did not know. I thought it would be a good opportunity. They promised me they would give us a good program and good accommodation. When we got there, they did not like that we were very popular. (tape breaks up throughout) Then Mr. Bishop (indistinct) brother, T.C. [break] ...tour, he is a good man. He came with... [break] He is one of the most respected men in Bareilly. He forced them to put the program back again. So we did again the same evening. The people there love our program. They are all supposed... They have pictures of Caitanya Mahāprabhu on the stage and they're supposed to be following Him but they sing all these sahajiyā sort of songs and they sit down and it's all gṛhasthas. There's no, There's no real... Prabhupāda: They want business. Caraṇāravindam: Just a business. We also had a program with Dr. Gupta (?). That was a nice program. And his wife she cooked some Bengali prasādam for us. We took our lunch there. That was very nice. Prabhupāda: I think that he is disciple of Tīrtha Mahārāja. Caraṇāravindam: Yes. But his son... His house, they have so many pictures of Ramakrishna and Sai Baba. His son is telling him to not follow the same like his father. And his father did not speak. He only spoke about three words. He's suffering from some rheumatism or something. Anyway, we had a good kīrtana there. [break] No, I never say, I never say. Akṣayānanda: But all the people who are Sai Baba followers, they all do have some activity in the mode of ignorance. They eat meat or onions. By their symptoms, we can see that they're in the mode of ignorance. Caraṇāravindam: ...at Meerut by Mr. Brijmohan Gad. He has come. He's in our guesthouse now. Actually he just came here this morning. We stayed in his house. That's was also a good... That is a good town also. Altogether we made fifteen life members in about two weeks. [break] Prabhupāda: ...bring Hindi books. Caraṇāravindam: Yes, we need Hindi books. I met one man in Meerut, Hindi... *Prabhupāda: Our Bhagavad*-gītā? Caraṇāravindam: Yes. And he is the brother of, he said, I think the nephew of Kṣīrodakaśāyī dāsa Adhikārī in London. His name is Mr. K.M. Gupta. I think he has taken initiation from you. Prabhupāda: I don't think. K.M. Gupta has given. Kṣīrodakaśāyī is my... Caraṇāravindam: Kṣīrodakaśāyī dāsa Adhikārī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Caraṇāravindam: And he said that you have seen his one chapter of his translation and have approved it. Prabhupāda: No. Caraṇāravindam: No, is that not true? I asked him for a copy but he said that he only had one copy he was sending to London and one he was keeping for himself. Prabhupāda: Oh, he is translating. Caraṇāravindam: Yes. And he said if we wanted a copy we could send a man and he could copy it down. He's done the first three chapters. Prabhupāda: Nonsense. Akṣayānanda: What did he say his initiated name is? Prabhupāda: He is not initiated. Caraṇāravindam: The man who is translating is not initiated. His uncle, Kṣīrodakaśāyī dāsa. Akṣayānanda: How many your program up to? Caraṇāravindam: How many boys? Of our boys, we were seven. Prabhupāda: Indian, or? Caraṇāravindam: There was one Indian boy but he was very sick. We took him with us. He was very sick so I sent him back here to Vṛndāvana. I took him because he had given one class in Hindi in the temple and Mahārāja said that you had liked that. He was too sick. Physically and mentally sick. Akṣayānanda: He's okay now. [break] Prabhupāda: No cloud. In the street it is very disturbing. [break] ...party, they are also touring? No. Caraṇāravindam: They have groups in different towns. They have in Birelli and Harpur. They don't travel and preach. I've met them in Ghaziabad also. They were the same. They were very envious, and they would not help. Also in Harpur they were the same. [break] Prabhupāda: Like our poison, (?) more. Mm? Caraṇāravindam: Oh yes. The people are gullible. They do not know. They are more attracted to us. But we are not always there. Prabhupāda: Occasionally, you find cities. [Break] You cannot speak Hindi, still they like? Huh? Caraṇāravindam: They like us. Prabhupāda: They like our kīrtana. Caraṇāravindam: Yes, kīrtana, they like. [break] Prabhupāda: Seven person you took in a car? Caraṇāravindam: Some of the boys went in a bus. We had a bus also. Prabhupāda: Bus? Caraṇāravindam: That belongs to Yaśodānandana Swami. Prabhupāda: Bus, why do you take the car? Caraṇāravindam: Well, the bus is not with me. My program is separate from the bus program. Prabhupāda: What is that separate. Caraṇāravindam: Now the bus is gone to Bombay. Prabhupāda: Why you should take two cars? [break] Where you are staying? Caraṇāravindam: Some of us stayed in Anand Ashram. There is one āśrama there called Anand Ashram in the civil lines. Prabhupāda: So what is that āśrama? Anand Ashram? Caraṇāravindam: They have got Deities of... They have got... In the main bhavana they have got Lord Śiva and Pārvatī in the center, big deities. And then they have got Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa at the side and Rāma and Sītā on the other side. They also told me to go. After some days they said we had to go. They did not like us. And we did not do anything wrong. Akṣayānanda: After how many days? Caraṇāravindam: After about one week. Akṣayānanda: Usually three days. Prabhupāda: They were feeding you? Caraṇāravindam: No. Prabhupāda: Oh. Why they did not like? Caraṇāravindam: It's difficult to say. I think it is envy. The swami who was there... Prabhupāda: He's a Māyāvādī. Caraṇāravindam: Yes, he's a Māyāvādī. He did not like it when the other people take an interest in us. Akṣayānanda: And they see that people are giving us money too. (Prabhupāda laughs) Actually wherever we go, with a few exceptions, wherever we go, after the third day we just suddenly become unwelcome even though we behave all right. The third day is about the limit. Caraṇāravindam: The one exception is this Gita Bhavan in Indore. Akṣayānanda: There are a few exceptions. Caraṇāravindam: They were nice to us there. Prabhupāda: They are nice. Once I had been there. Caraṇāravindam: Yes, they told me you had been there. That is why they are nice to us. Wherever you have been there has been some change of heart. In Indore there is some definite effect from that. (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 18, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: And this paper should be carried to Pradyumna. [break] ...predicted it? They are not going to do all this protest against Transcendental Meditation. Hari-śauri: No. Prabhupāda: That means here they are feeling the weight. You see? These protests, this combination, this endeavor to collapse our..., that means they are feeling more weight. And what is this movement, Transcendent...? They never formed against any case, anything, Transcendental... They know that is farce. There are so many other groups. Yogi Bhajan, Transcendental Meditation and what is he? Guru...? Hari-śauri: Guru Maharaji. Prabhupāda: Guru Maharaja. So many. Ramakrishna is not very prominent. Sai Baba. (aside:) Little, little, everyone. Who asked for them? Aurobindo. Even Aurobindo. Who will protest against Aurobindo? Aurobindo has got some influence in the Western... Jagadīśa: Not so much. Hari-śauri: I never heard of him before. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: (laughs) I never heard of Aurobindo. If someone is interested in Eastern philosophy, generally they read books about Aurobindo and stuff like that, because up till now that's been the only literature that's been available in the West. Prabhupāda: Aurobindo? Hari-śauri: Yes. People like that. Prabhupāda: And now it is worthless. Hari-śauri: Now it's finished. Jagadīśa: There's one other movement called the Moonies. Prabhupāda: Moonies. Jagadīśa: Moonies. That's been founded by Reverend Sun Yung Moon. Hari-śauri: That Korean man, that Korean businessman. Prabhupāda: Oh. But that is also not... Hari-śauri: They're big in the States. They're very big in the States. Jagadīśa: He wants to take over the world. He publicly says so. He claims to be organizing the world... Prabhupāda: That... [break] Hari-śauri: He says that Jesus never carried out what he intended to do... Prabhupāda: "I am doing." Hari-śauri: So he's going to come and do it. Prabhupāda: So that is capturing the sentiment. There is no philosophy. And who cares for Jesus? First of all they must care for Jesus. So he's... He has got any books? Jagadīśa: I don't think so. Maybe some pamphlets. Hari-śauri: No one's got any literature like yours. At the most, they can produce a few pamphlets. They can't even produce one volume the size of the Bhāgavatam, what to speak of eighty. And if they could, no one would read them anyway. *Prabhupāda: No, on the whole there is now attempt to stop this movement. [break] ...but in... We have made so many court cases. Now, only loss we are feeling now*-in some airports they have stopped our book selling. So formerly also, they were stopped and again revived. Hari-śauri: Legally we haven't been stopped in any airport, I don't think. Prabhupāda: Legally we have been stopped? Jagadīśa: In Los Angeles, in Dallas and Atlanta. Prabhupāda: Legally? Hari-śauri: But that's only temporarily, I think. Prabhupāda: What is the...? Jagadīśa: It's a constant struggle. Prabhupāda: Struggle must be there. You cannot stop it. Jagadīśa: In Montreal for about two years... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, since His birth struggled. (laughs) Jagadīśa: We had harassment from the police in Montreal for two years. Sometimes they even beat up the devotees. They have put them into jail... Prabhupāda: They have beaten even our book sellers in airports. Hari-śauri: Chicago. Jagadīśa: And the police mistreat the devotees. But still, the devotees continue and now in Montreal there's no trouble. Prabhupāda: They crucified Jesus, what to speak of devotees. Prahlāda Mahārāja was persecuted, Haridāsa Ṭhākura. I think I shall not go to Europe, America, for some time. (laughter) Hari-śauri: Not unless this gets cleared up. Prabhupāda: Because it is being discussed about me. They say, "Old man is behind this movement." Hari-śauri: Even in Australia now they're having the same thing, kidnapping and everything. It's everywhere. Prabhupāda: That means they are feeling the weight. It is spreading. Hari-śauri: Yeah. (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 20, 1976, Våndävana Akṣayānanda: ...Kṛṣṇa will also increase? Prabhupāda: Hm? Akṣayānanda: The ability to remember Kṛṣṇa, that will also increase? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, if the brain is clear*-it is not filled up with rubbish cow dung-then Kṛṣṇa consciousness easy. Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means there is no more material consciousness. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. That is required. In material existence we have got so many obligations, thoughts (indistinct), and so many things. Bṛthā. Pālikā: Nothing else? Prabhupāda: Huh? Pālikā: Nothing else? *Prabhupāda: No. If I take anything else it becomes overburdened. Better take little less, just to satisfy that I am not starving. (laughter) Better to starve. That is better. But we are habituated, so better give some consolance, "No, no, you are not starving." Otherwise starving is better. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau **. (pause) So they were glad that I am coming? Akṣayānanda: Oh, yes. He was happy. And she was also happy. Prabhupāda: Who? Akṣayānanda: Gosāi Mā. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, she was very kind upon me. Akṣayānanda: Yes, they are very happy. *Hari-śauri: How long is it since you've been to the Rādhā*-Dāmodara? Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: When did you last go? Prabhupāda: Last? Maybe 1972. *Hari-śauri: About four years. What about that Keśī*-ghāṭa? Akṣayānanda: I didn't have time to find out. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Hari-śauri: Whereabouts, exactly, is that place at Keśī*-ghāṭa? Prabhupāda: Oh. (chuckles) We can go some day. Akṣayānanda: I think I met somebody from there. Prabhupāda: Oh, his daughter came there. Akṣayānanda: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Daughter or granddaughter. Akṣayānanda: Something like that, yes. He was talking about... *Prabhupāda: When I first came in Vṛndāvana I stayed in the Keśī*-ghāṭa. That is very palatial building. My room was as big as this. Yes, as big. Plus one side room, plus one entrance room. I was paying fifteen rupees. And I could see whole Vṛndāvana, Yamunā, from the top my house. It is very nice, very palatial. Hari-śauri: That's in the big building on the, right on the side of the ghāṭa? Prabhupāda: Which gate? *Hari-śauri: That's in the big building right on the side of Keśī*-ghāṭa? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: No? Prabhupāda: No. There is a big building, Bharat Maharaja, yes, Bharatpur, just by the side of that house. It is in the corner. The door is in the corner. The road is going this way in the corner. It is stone. Face is stone. Good building, but... [break] ...in thought of Kṛṣṇa, outside cleaning by oil and soap. Soap. Bāhyābhyantara-śuciḥ. This is quite comfortable, not very chilly, within this room. Hari-śauri: Yes, this retains the heat nicely. *Prabhupāda: People are so misled. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. We have to change this body. There is no preparation. "As sure as death." Death will take place, and you have to accept another body. Who understands this philosophy? Nobody. They are so dull-headed. This body finished, everything finished. All big, big leaders, scholars, they say. One gentleman, his name is... He was Rabindranath Tagore's brother, artist. So in a meeting he was saying, "We are so fool. Thinking of next life, next life, we are spoiling this life." He said like that long, long ago when we were children, young men, about eighteen years, twenty years. So I remember distinctly, he is saying in the meeting that "Simply thinking of next life, we are spoiling this life." He said. That was his explanation. So at that time we were young boys: "Yes, why we should think of, so much of next life?" Of course, I was not very much convinced, but naturally... I think his name Aurobindo Tagore, like that. Rabindranath Tagore. He is good artist. Artist means latest fashion, like this, like that, like that. He was considered to be latest artist. And his view is that. I talked with Professor Kotofsky. He said, "Swamiji, after finishing this body everything is finished." Communist. This is the cent per cent idea. The so-called scientists, they are thinking, by chemical evolution the body has come in existence. These things are discussed in Bhagavad-gītā. By accident, if it is a combination of chemicals, that means the bodily existence was not before. It has come in by accident, combination. "So why, Arjuna, you are lamenting for the body which was not in existence? And it will not exist after. Then why you are so much anxious for the middle portion?" Good reasoning. The body was not in existence. That is the general... And as soon as you finish, there is no more existence. So via media, between the manifestation and nonmanifestation, in the middle there is some manifesta... Why you are so much absorbed in that part? Therefore the Europeans, Americans, they bring in the charges, "brainwash." "A brainwash movement. It has no actual value. Simply an artificial way of pushing the idea in the brain. And they have to give up. These children are spoiled. They have given up meat-eating and illicit sex. Their life is spoiled, and so on, so on." So their theory is not without background. There is a background philosophy. And for Western countries, this is a completely new idea. Therefore they are charging, "brainwash." They are not to be blamed because they are, I mean to say, raised in that ideas. Hm? Is it not? Yes. "So this is simply brainwash movement. It has no factual standing." Even our country, what to speak of Western countries. Where the spiritual civilization has a strong background, they are also not believing. Nobody believes Kṛṣṇa is God. Even big, big leaders, what to speak of ordinary men. Especially the so-called educated men. "Bring money anyhow and enjoy life." Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. And for money they are doing everything. Black money, white money, yellow money, this money. (laughs) "Bring money and enjoy. Bas. This is life. Why this nonsense Kṛṣṇa consciousness? No this, no this, no this. Ninety-nine per cent no and one per cent yes. What is the value of this movement?" Is it not? Our life is ninety-nine per cent no. No air even. (laughter) So what to speak of other thing. It is very difficult. Therefore in the beginning I was hopeless, that "Who will hear this movement? Simply no." And especially in this country, in Europe. So dull brain. (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 24, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (1): Christo is also the Spanish and Portuguese word for Christ. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning? Devotee (1): Christ. Prabhupāda: Christ. Just see. So write article on this. Devotee (1): "Krishnian." Prabhupāda: Wherefrom this Christo came. The Greek word. And the Greek got from India, Kṛṣṇa. This is the history. Christian means Krishnian, godly. And Christo, so far I know, the Greek meaning is "decorated," "love." That indicates to Kṛṣṇa. If there is some scholar he can find out that Christian means Krishnian originally. (reads:) "How the soul transmigrates? The process is very subtle. The spirit soul is invisible to our material eye. It is atomic in size. After the destruction of the gross body, which is made up of the senses, blood, bone, fat, and so forth, the subtle body of mind, intelligence, and ego goes on working. So at the time of death this subtle body carries the small spirit soul to another gross body. The process is just like air carrying a fragrance. Nobody can see where this rose fragrance is coming from, but we know that it is being carried by the air. You cannot see how, but it is being done. Similarly, the process of transmigration of the soul is very subtle. According to the conditions of the mind at the time of death the minute spirit soul enters in the womb of particular mother through the semina of the father. And when the soul develops a particular type of body given by the mother it may be a human being, it may be cat, a dog, or anything." So it is brainwash? Hm? Devotee (1): But if it was heard by them, they would accept it but because there are so many cheaters and rascals, they're so afraid of all of it because there's been so much cheating and different philosophies and gurus and false gurus and that. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Now... Ayi. So for fix up, you should take paper. Who is in charge of which subject, I want to know. (Hindi) That Prem Yogi can teach you very nice. And you and Prem Yogi can teach these boys Sanskrit. Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is not difficult at all. Anyone who knows Hindi, he knows half Sanskrit. Indian language, any Indian language, he knows half Sanskrit already. Half has to be completed. Because Indian language is directly from Sanskrit. So what are the charges you were working? Write each name and charge. Is there any charge to each man? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So write that. (pause) This article, if it is presented, the whole case, it is lost... Hari-śauri: Most of this magazine is... Somehow or other, in all the articles there's something about how the chanting is actually producing greater intelligence, clearing the mind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Akṣayānanda: Books and devotees. Prabhupāda: This issue is very important. There's so many evidences. [break] Who are present here... Akṣayānanda: Who are present here. Prabhupāda: ...their charges, including their... Write the names and the work in which department he's in charge. That I want to know. Devotee (1): Would you also like to know the... 'Cause some of them are not in charge of certain departments but they work within a department. Prabhupāda: Oh. He is assistant. Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Then assistant name also the different, these departments. One man in charge and he may have several assistants. That is different thing. (pause) Robinson could not protest any, in any of my statement. He had to admit. Hari-śauri: Yeah. I told you he was very interested in the philosophy, asking some very good questions. Prabhupāda: Still he's asking, "Are you saying that we were something else before this life?" I said, "Yes." (laughter) [break] ...issue will help 99% about this controversy, brainwashing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I haven't read it completely. Prabhupāda: And there are pictures of chanting. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's a very good..., this editorial. Prabhupāda: This is new copy. So is it finished now? [break] Akṣayānanda: ...ksena.(?) Practical. Prabhupāda: Hm? Finished. So what is your charge? Hari-śauri: Your including... Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Devotee (1): Well, restaurant, shop, kitchen, the kitchen godown. Prabhupāda: Kitchen godown? Devotee (1): Supplies. Prabhupāda: Oh, supplies. So what is the difficulty? The other day you complained some difficulty. So what is the difficulty? Devotee (2): Nothing. Nothing excepting my jaundice. Prabhupāda: Then? Devotee (2): Everything is all right. Prabhupāda: No, you said there is some difficulty. All of you came there on behalf... Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is that difficulty? You are in charge of this department. That's right? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty in discharging your duty? Now you cannot say? What is that? All of you said there is difficulty. Devotee (2): It doesn't concern directly what we have as charges. Prabhupāda: So what is that difficulty? What is your difficulty? That I must know. Devotee (2): If some of the boys were to get along with the authorities... Prabhupāda: Loan? Hari-śauri: Along. Prabhupāda: Oh, along, authori... So that I want... [break] ...discuss with authorities here. Our first authority is Akṣayānanda. So what is the difficulty you get along with? What is the difficulty? You must discuss. Otherwise how it can be resolved? Devotee (2): Personally consulting me, I have had no difficulty so far. But there have been other... Prabhupāda: Who had difficulty. You came, so many. What is your difficulty? Now explain what you are in charge? Indian devotee: I am the reception. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's the guest house receptionist at the moment. Prabhupāda: Guest house reception? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is your difficulty with the authority? Indian devotee: Regarding this guesthouse, everything is okay, but things, little things, these equipments and all these things... Prabhupāda: Help to understand. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I am understanding. He is saying that everything is all right but he needs equipment sometimes. So if they need equipment the procedure is that it has to be... Prabhupāda: Equipment? What is that equipment? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like plates or... Indian devotee: These bedding materials and these mans for managing these..., sweepers and all. We are running short of mans. Of course we are trying to get short of man... Akṣayānanda: Short of men. Cleaners. Indian devotee: Cleaners and these mans... Prabhupāda: You have got cleaners. Akṣayānanda: Coming. Prabhupāda: Eh? Akṣayānanda: Well, we had sufficient but they are unreliable, paid men, so we're getting new men. But I don't think that's the difficulty with the management. Prabhupāda: So you solve this difficulty. You answer. He has got difficulty. You answer him. So he has got difficulty. Akṣayānanda: Difficulty is because we lost the caukidāra. The cleaner had to become a caukidāra, the man here had a new caukidāra, so your cleaner is there? Indian devotee: Yes, today he is working. Akṣayānanda: And other men are coming, is it not? Indian devotee: Ah, yes, coming. Prabhupāda: So is there difficulty now? Indian devotee: No, it is coming now. There are no difficulties. Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty, I do not find out. You told him and that is already done. And you also said there is no difficulty, so why the other day you all came and there was difficulty? Devotee (3): Well, it was not my, directly my difficulty, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (3): They have been small situations where other Indian devotees, closer to him, came to me with their problems. Prabhupāda: So all Indians are here. Now say what is the difficulty. Devotee (3): Well, some things like changing of our duties, changing of our services. Prabhupāda: So why you change? Consult. Devotee (3): Well, they're wanting change, Prabhupāda. And they were not satisfied with that change, so, and they wanted to remain in that particular service. Prabhupāda: Change is no rectification. If somebody is not working he should be trained up. Changing is another... If he is a fool, another fool will come. What will be the difficulty? You see? Change, of course, sometimes required but if you constantly change, the man is not trained up. That practice is not good. If somebody is not doing satisfactorily, then he should be trained up that "You should like this." And if you immediately change another that, that is not actually solution because all our workers, they are not accustomed to certain type of duty. They are devotee, after all. So still, we have to do something, so one man requires little training. But whatever capacity he has got, he is posted, so immediate change, that is not very good management. Let him be reformed and whatever inability he has got, he should be instructed and he should be... And this, all of a sudden change, simply go on changing, nobody... "Rolling stone never gathers moss." A "rolling stone" policy is not good. So what is the difficulty? Keep the stone in a place and it will gather moss. And if you simply roll, it will never gather moss. If the man who has committed mistake, he should be reformed. He should be instructed. Sometimes I show your cleaners by myself, "Do like this." Change them, immediate change, that is not good management, and to make him competent in that way, that is management. So this policy should be followed, not that because he has done something not correctly he should be changed immediately. That will not help. Now discuss this point. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually we can solve it ourselves. I don't know why they came to you in the first place because our whole business is to relieve you of all problems. Prabhupāda: Yes. But... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not think that if we are Indians we can have a special access to you. Prabhupāda: So do, do. What is that? Ta... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we can do it outside instead of troubling you. We can sit down... Actually, I've already told them since I've been here yesterday that whatever problems they have, we can solve it ourselves. Prabhupāda: So go and settle up in that lungi.(?) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can settle it ourselves instead of bringing it to Prabhupāda. Akṣayānanda: I don't think there's any great difficulty, Prabhupāda. Devotee (1): Actually, we've been speaking the last few days and these problems can be solved. Prabhupāda: No, it is Kṛṣṇa's service. Everyone is offering voluntary service. So not that anybody's paid and if he cannot, dismiss or... Yes. This bureaucracy is not... Train him. Train him. If he does not know, train him. But things must be done very nicely by cooperation. That is wanted. Everyone should remember that we are serving Kṛṣṇa, and everyone should remember, "The other person is serving Kṛṣṇa. And because he is serving Kṛṣṇa, he is not my servant; he is my master." That should be always in view. Therefore we address, prabhu: "You are my master." We never address, "You are my servant." We are trained up to say my brother, that "prabhu," "such and such prabhu." Prabhu means master. Nobody think himself that he is master. He should always think that everyone is his master because he's serving the master. This is our philosophy. So in this way... Now you have got good arrangement and they're all intelligent persons, young persons. Akṣayānanda: All those people are here. Prabhupāda: So kindly settle up and do nice things. That I want to see. That's all. He is also present. At that time he was not present. So go and... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: You should always remember that you are helping me. Without your help I cannot do anything, so you do not be disturbed. Try to help me. That is my request. Thank you very much. (Hindi) (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 25, 1976, Våndävana Prabhupāda: At least once in a month you must be shaven headed. Akṣayānanda: Actually, we usually shave more. Prabhupāda: Hm? Akṣayānanda: We usually shave more than once a month. Two weeks. 'Cause after even two weeks it looks a little dirty. Hari-śauri: We can get very good wigs. *Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no need. It is simply... That is also mental concoction. Nowadays, if you go with coat*-pant shaven headed, nobody will criticize you. It has become a practi... Russians, they used... That Krushchev I have seen. Bald head. Hari-śauri: Yes, bald head. Prabhupāda: And so many. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't have a śikhā, that's all. Prabhupāda: Oh? It is practice only. Akṣayānanda: No, it's nice. We shouldn't be afraid to do that. Then it will become more and more accepted. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's so timely. Once we start diverting, like on these records I was thinking after you told me not to do it. We started. Now there's so many. Everyone's into records. Everyone wants to diversify into so many other areas. There's no end to it. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you were in Los Angeles you heard that new record by Kṛṣṇakānti. Hari-śauri: This pop music? This tape that you just got of that Western style music. Jagadīśa: Apparently in a new BBT newsletter which just came yesterday afternoon there's a statement by Rāmeśvara that you were asked whether this record should be played in the temples and you said, "Why not in the temples?" Hari-śauri thought that you said "not in the temples," Rāmeśvara said... *Prabhupāda: No, no. Not in the temple. I... I want... If the wordings are all right, so there is no... If there is no mistake in the set*-up of the wording, the change of musical tune, that is not harmful. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This one tape that Alex has made, he gave me a copy in Bombay to listen. I just played it... Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, this vibration, you can make in different tune. We are already doing that. Hari-śauri: We're talking about these songs that they are writing. Jagadīśa: Philosophy songs. Prabhupāda: And therefore we have to see the words. Hari-śauri: Like this "caterpillar had a change of heart." Jagadīśa: If the words are all right, then they can be played in the temple? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because no one can hear the words. It's the pop music that people hear. Akṣayānanda: Actually the words are just like modern pop songs. You can't tell really what it means. I suggested to those people. I said, "Why don't you put music to Prabhupāda's books? Take the words straight from your..." Hari-śauri: No, Prabhupāda's approved this method for attracting karmīs. Akṣayānanda: Yes, not for devotees. Hari-śauri: But the thing is once you become a devotee, we don't need... Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: That kind of music also reminds us of past bad activities, sinful activities. Hari-śauri: The question is whether should it be played in the temple or not? Prabhupāda: Temple may not be played. What is use of playing in the temple? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I know from practical experience, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that... I just played this Alex's record. It's all current pop music with English philosophy wording. And all the brahmacārīs were so agitated, they came to my room to listen and they were, you know, really making fun of it like it was a pop... Akṣayānanda: Because that style of music it reminds us of the nightclubs or whatever it might be. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said it is better not to make these records. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just your these records and paramparā records should be played, I think. There are so many tapes of your records. Hari-śauri: This style that they are doing now, they explain that they wanted that because then that way, they'll be able get them played on the radio. Otherwise they won't play bhajanas or anything on the radio. But there's a distinction between that kind of music and pure Kṛṣṇa consciousness music. Even though the words indicate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, most of the songs are written in such a way that it's indirect. It's not directly Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But you can't hear the words. Prabhupāda: Yes, indirect. Hari-śauri: They give this thing, "The caterpillar changed his mind," like that. It provokes some speculation. Prabhupāda: No, indirect for gross outsiders, not for us. Therefore they should not be played in the temple. Gross outsider only. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So, Prabhupāda, the New York temple has just produced a ballet on *Rāmāyaṇa*, and one boy, Vijayadeva, just came back and he brought a slideshow on that ballet. Prabhupāda: Ballet? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They did a ballet, the New York theater, Sudāmā Swami and his group. But that ballet is accompanied by a classical Western record in background. It's a twenty med... They have just played the whole record as background music. And I know, we showed it in Bombay and none of the devotees liked it. They told me to stop that show because they said it's all māyā. Everyone saw it, Girirāja and... Prabhupāda: So they should be restricted. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, their playing... Serious devotees don't like it, like Girirāja walked out of the show and he told me to stop it. Prabhupāda: So why it was played, this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They just brought it from New York, so we didn't know what it contained. But they are doing this in other centers. (end) *Evening Darçana-*-December 3, 1976, Hyderabad *Prabhupāda: There will be proper rainfall. And if there is proper rainfall, then you get sufficient food grains, not only food grains, other things also. Sarva*-dughā mahī, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. From the earth you can get all the necessities of life. Actually you are getting food grains, minerals, trees, fruits, flowers, everything from the earth. Sarva-dughā, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. This mahī, when it is soaked with proper rains, it becomes fertile. Therefore we have to depend on the rainfall. There is one verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. Parjanya means rainfall. Rainfall means it is supplying all the necessities of life. And this rainfall will be easy when there is yajña. And nobody is performing yajña; *therefore nowadays rainfall is scarcity. In Europe recently I have seen, there is no rainfall, whole Europe. It is on the verge of drying everything. So this punishment will come in this Kali*-yuga. There will be no rainfall, and there will be not sufficient food supply, and the government will simply levy taxes on different pleas and people will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their hearth and home and flee away to the forest. It is stated. So therefore you must perform yajña. And that is very easy in this age. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. You cannot perform the former yajñas by sacrifice tons of ghee and grains because you have no sufficient food grains even. But still, if you chant this saṅkīrtana, that is yajña. Therefore you must take to saṅkīrtana-yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ. It is very easy. [break] ...the duty of human being, prāṇaiḥ, with life, arthaiḥ, with money, dhiyā, with intelligence, and vācā, by words. If one sacrifices his life for Kṛṣṇa's cause, then it is first-class. If he cannot sacrifice his life for Kṛṣṇa he can contribute his hard-earned money for Kṛṣṇa. If he cannot do so, if he has no money, he can give some intelligence. If he is not intelligent, then he can give some words. Just like we are doing preaching. We are preaching, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. So without any jugglery of words we present to the people that "Here is Bhagavān," kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. So giving some words, sacrificing some words... Not that every one of us is very highly educated or very rich. Still, if we carry the words of Kṛṣṇa... As Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7], so we have to carry these words, that "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa." Where is the difficulty? It is authorized. Kṛṣṇa says and we simply carry the words. So where is difficulty? So simply by carrying these words that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He wants that you surrender unto Him." So any child can carry these words. Any foolish man can carry these words. And if you do that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, then you become guru, simply by carrying these words. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Even in your village, in your home, you can say to your wife, to your children. They will accept you that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Then you become guru at home. Where is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? But people will not do that. This truth they will not say. What is the reason? Say what is the reason why they do not carry this message, simply to say everyone, whomever you meet. You are meeting daily with your wife, your children, your friends. If you simply do this missionary work and say that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme," then you become a great devotee. You become a guru. Why people do not do so? It is not very difficult task. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said that "By My order you become a guru." Indians especially are advised to become guru because Indians, however fallen they may be, they still have respect for Kṛṣṇa. Every home, they perform Kṛṣṇa's Janmāṣṭamī. So therefore Indians are fortunate. They recognize Kṛṣṇa. Now, to become little more advanced, let them act as Kṛṣṇa's servant. Kṛṣṇa came to speak this truth, that "I am the Supreme." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. He appeared to speak this philosophy. And if you do the same work, that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," then you are serving the mission of Kṛṣṇa, great service to Kṛṣṇa. The words for which He appeared on this earth, if you simply carry these words door to door, village to village, man to man, then you become a guru, a real guru. Not to pose yourself a guru without any knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. That is cheating. And to accept and understand Kṛṣṇa the Supreme thoroughly and preach these words, that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," is the supreme success of life. What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Why don't you do that? I have to bring all these young men from Europe and America to speak to you this truth. Why our young men is not coming to speak this truth? Hm? What is the difficulty? That means willfully they are denying the success of life. Willfully. Then what can be done? If somebody willfully commits suicide, who can save him? This is our position at the present moment. The Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu: "I have drunk poison knowingly." So if somebody knowingly drinks poison, then who can save him? So we are doing that. Without preaching the gospel of Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are drinking poison willfully. This is our position. Indian man: I talked to radio (?). Prabhupāda: Eh? Oh, you have taken so much trouble. Prasādam, some give it to... Jaya. A very big block of herbs. What is the name of that...? Eh? Indian men: Bechel (?). *Prabhupāda: Bechel (?). So we want so many men to live there nicely, to eat sumptuously, and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have seen while coming from Vṛndāvana to Delhi, hundreds and thousands of young men. They are going to the factories on cycle, coming from distant place, at least twenty miles, twenty*-five miles, and it takes two hours to reach the factory or more than that. And there he works hard eight hours and then again goes back, two hours, three hours, on cycle. I do not know what kind of rest he takes. This is life. And if we request these young men that "You come here. You live here comfortably. You eat here sumptuously and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they will not. Just see how unfortunate they are. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. This is Kali-yuga. All bad men, unfortunate and disturbed. This is the position. They will work so hard, they'll catch daily passenger trains, Calcutta, Bombay, I have seen. They are actually hanging, and some of them are falling down, lost life, and coming from hundred miles away. But still, if you ask him that "You come here. Live with us. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Even with your family you can come." We are doing that at Māyāpura. He will not. How strong sense gratification propensity is. This is position of Kali-yuga. They are making propaganda, ruṭi kāpar mākhan. So we are giving, "Come on, ruṭi, mākhan, kāpar, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." "No. I want wine. I want meat. I want rundi (?)." This is going on. Simply they say, "Ruṭi, kāpar, mākhan." But no, they want wine, woman, and sense pleasure, that's all. Ruṭi, kāpar, mākhan is not difficult. You can get. But they want something more. You see how many advertisements for selling wine in your Hyderabad. Is that, ruṭi, kāpar, mākhan? Vāsughoṣa: Even the poorest of men. Just like before, when this temple wasn't here and we were chopping away at the rocks in the foundation, we were paying twenty rupees a day for those men. And we were told that ten rupees every day would go for wine for those same men. Ten rupees out of the twenty they would immediately spend to drink. Even poor people. So many of them. Prabhupāda: And because we are trying to stop this thing in Europe and America there is agitation that "These people are propagating brainwash. How is that a man who will not eat, drink? This is brainwash." They spend ten rupees out of twenty rupees. Eh? *Vāsughoṣa: Yes, we were told like that, that they would take their twenty rupees pay and then they would go and spend ten rupees and on alcohol, drinking, toddy. [break] I was in... Last time at the festival in Māyāpura I was riding from Māyāpura to Calcutta. And so one man was saying that "Oh, fish, 80 paisa a kg. How much are potatoes?" I asked. So even their hard*-earned money, so much more they spend just to eat meat, to enjoy their senses. It doesn't make sense in any way. *Prabhupāda: And that also, they cannot live on meat. They must have vegetable also. Without vegetable, simple meat*-eating will not help them. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Jaya. Vāsughoṣa: Actually I think they are all misers. Prabhupāda: Hm? Vāsughoṣa: They are also misers. They want to enjoy. *Prabhupāda: No, misers, I say rascals, fools and rascals. That's all. That is their real position, mūḍha. Mūḍha. This very word is used in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mūḍha. Mūḍha means rascal, ass. Asses. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he is mūḍha, ass. He is not human being. If you are intelligent enough, by seeing this flower you must admit there is God. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Find out this verse. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam: "Mūḍha, rascals, they cannot understand that I am behind everything." Come here. Who has manufactured this flower? Young man: God. Prabhupāda: Very good. (laughter) Thank you. He is intelligent. And the rascal will say, "There is no God." Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. (Hindi) That's all right. What is that verse? I am very pleased that you have immediately answered the right thing. This is intelligence. Devotee (1): Is this the one? Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya [Bg. 7.25]? Prabhupāda: No, it is... Which chapter it is? Devotee (1): Seventh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Read the verse whole. *Devotee (1): Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti... [Bg. 7.25]. Prabhupāda: Mām ebhyaḥ. Yes, read that. Devotee (2): "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My..." Prabhupāda: Now, here is intelligence. This boy has got intelligence; *therefore he can see, behind this flower there is God. He immediately answered. That is intelligence. He is not seeing God, but he's seeing God. God is not present face to face but it doesn't matter. Just like the prime minister of our country, she may not be present here but that does not mean that she is not there. She is there. So these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" How can you see Him? By intelligence. Just like this fan is running. The powerhouse is not here but intelligent man will understand that there is electric powerhouse from where the electricity energy is supplied and therefore the fan is running. By the running of the fan, one can understand that there is a big powerhouse and there is an electric engineer there who is conducting the business. That is sufficient, to see the running of the fan. That is intelligence. And if somebody says, "No, no, the fan is running automatically," that is not possible. You are experiencing every moment. As soon as the electric energy is stopped, the fan is stopped. The room is dark. So there is powerhouse behind this electric energy, and the powerhouse is being managed by one engineer. This is natural conclusion. And Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram: "Under My supervision the material nature is working." Find out this verse. Devotee (2): Prabhupāda: Purport? Devotee (2): "It is clearly stated here that the Supreme Lord, although aloof from all the activities of the material world, remains the supreme director. The Supreme Lord is the supreme will and the background of this material manifestation." Prabhupāda: The modern scientists, their first business is to deny that Supreme. That is modern. It is a curse for the scientist if they talk of God. Amongst the scientists this is an etiquette, not to talk of God. Everything science. Means everything nonsense, passing on as scientist. Do you believe this? Devotee: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: The scientists' position denying God, do you think? Mahāṁśa: It's always changing. They simply... Vāsughoṣa: They feel great anxiety to talk about God. Once, about three years ago, I had met one big scientist from University of Chicago. Just a chance there was one... My father had invited me back home for something. The scientist was there. We got in a big discussion with him and his daughter. They were just saying, "We don't see God. There is no evidence of God." Even logically we could show them. They still didn't want to accept. It was so obvious to them. Ultimately they couldn't say anything. Prabhupāda: What is their logic to deny God? *Vāsughoṣa: They don't have any logic. And ultimately, if we present our conclusions of Bhagavad*-gītā to them, they are silent. They can't say anything but they still refuse. They don't accept it, but they can't deny it. Prabhupāda: That is dog's obstinacy. The dog, however you ask the dog to stop barking, it will go on barking. Dog's obstinacy. Hm. What is that? I have taken. *Devotee (2): "But in the management... But the management is being conducted by material nature. Kṛṣṇa also states in Bhagavad*-gītā that of all the living entities in different forms and species, 'I am the Father.' The father gives seeds to the womb of the mother for the child, and similarly the Supreme Lord by His mere glance injects all the living entities into the womb of material nature, and they come out in their different forms and species, according to their last desires and activities. All these living entities, although born under the glance of the Supreme Lord, still take their different bodies according to their past deeds and desires. So the Lord is not directly attached to this material creation. He simply glances over material nature; material nature is thus activated, and everything is created immediately. Because He glances over material nature, there is undoubtedly activity on the part of the Supreme Lord, but He has nothing to do with the manifestation of the material world directly. This example is given in the smṛti: when there is a fragrant flower before someone, the fragrance is touched by the smelling power of the person, yet the smelling and the flower are detached from one another. There is a similar connection between the material world and the Supreme Personality of Godhead; actually He has nothing to do with this material world, but He creates by His glance and ordains. In summary, material nature, without the superintendence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, cannot do anything. Yet the Supreme Personality is detached from all material activities." [break] Prabhupāda: ...ārati? Devotee (2): Seven. Prabhupāda: God is one. Others, they are... Just like president is one. Others are government servant. Similarly, God is one. There cannot be other God. Then he is not God. Guest (Indian man): But Kṛṣṇa says in *Gītā*, rudrāṇāṁ śaṅkaro 'smi. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Rudrāṇāṁ śaṅkaro 'smi. That means just like Śaṅkara has got some godly power. Guest: Suppose if someone worships, they are worshiper of Śiva. Prabhupāda: But that is not God worship. That is Śiva worship. Why do you bring God worship? Guest: God, (indistinct) ...these are going directly to the Śiva. Prabhupāda: No. Guest: No, not directly. *Prabhupāda: You can go to Lord Śiva. Yānti deva*-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. *Guest: Mad*-bhakta yājino... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām. There is distinction. You purchase ticket for Delhi, you can go to Delhi. How you can go to Bombay? Guest: But among the people there is a misconception. Prabhupāda: Then people are rascals. Therefore the mūḍhas they are. What value they have got? They have no value. Guest (2) (Indian man): (Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: That's all right. You can have respect for everyone. That is good. But it does not mean that by purchasing ticket for Delhi you go to Bombay. And it does not mean that because you do not go to Bombay you have no respect for Delhi. That is not. But if you want to go to Delhi you have purchased a ticket for Delhi. If you want to go to Bombay you must purchase a ticket for Bombay. Why do you speak nonsensically that "Whatever ticket I purchase, I go to Bombay"? (laughter) This is nonsense. They'll take to the nonsense theory. That is Vivekananda's theory. "Whatever you do, it is all right." Yato mata tato patha. And that is not fact. Guest: These are... All pass there to the Supreme. *Prabhupāda: How? Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva*-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. How, you nonsense, straightly say that everyone goes to God? This is nonsense. You can go to Śiva, you can go to Indra, you can go... There are so many planets and you'll go there. And that is reasonable. And how do you say that "Whatever ticket I purchase, I go to this, Delhi?" Vāsughoṣa: They say that all, they're all the same. *Prabhupāda: "They say." Therefore they are nonsense, mūḍha, rascals. They do not know what is God, what is demigod, what is Lord Śiva, what is Lord Viṣṇu or Brahmā. They do not know. If a woman says, "Oh, everyone is my husband," then she is a prostitute. That's all. A chaste woman will say, "No, there is one, my husband. That's all." That is chaste woman. And if she is liberal, if she says, "No, no, everyone is my husband," that means she is prostitute. She does not know what is value of husband. In Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante anya devatāḥ: [Bg. 7.20] "Those who have adhered to other demigods, they have lost their intelligence," hṛta-jñānāḥ, "rascals." They'll go. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante anya devatāḥ, antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām [Bg. 7.23]. Because they are rascals, they prefer like that. The public opinion will be taken out; *Kṛṣṇa's opinion will be... Public is rascals. They can say all nonsense. That is not to be taken. You have to take-that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement*-what Kṛṣṇa says. What do you think? Kṛṣṇa says, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante anya devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. *Guest: Śrīla Prabhupāda? But one man in Bangalore was talking. He was saying that everything there goes to Govinda, even the answers in the Bhagavad*-gītā (indistinct). Because so many people following, they are also following. Prabhupāda: Yes. So public opinion dictates that "This property is ours." Will he give by votes? Why he'll protest on that point? Guest: His point is that because everyone is telling Kṛṣṇa is Supreme, therefore you are also supreme, but where is it true that Kṛṣṇa is Supreme? Prabhupāda: So we have to meet such rascals and we have to preach. The world is full of rascals, mūḍha. What can be done? But we cannot change our preaching because the rascals are many. That is not... We cannot make that... Guest: There is no medicine for mūḍhas. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is medicine; *there is beating with shoes. That is going on. Mūrkhasya laktansadhiḥ,(?) argumentum baculum. You cannot mildly speak to the animals, "My dear cow, my dear dog, please do not bark. Do not go this way." No, you require lāṭhi, stick, and they will behave. Can you stop dog's barking by simply request? But you take the stick and beat it, and he will stop. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ.(?) So there is no king. There is no kṣatriya. Therefore these rascals are talking all nonsense. There is no śāsana. This is king's duty, to see that they are acting according to śāstra. But there is no such king. So everyone is acting whimsically, whatever he likes, and the so*-called swamis are preaching, "No, no, whatever you like, that's all right. You can eat whatever you like. You can do whatever you like. You think yourself that you are God. That's all right." This is going on. By thinking himself that he's God, he becomes God. This is going on, so many meditations: "I am moving the sun, I am moving the Moon, I am moving... mo mo mo mo." (laughter) And rascals are following them. Guest: They do not know the process of God. *Prabhupāda: I know. There is no question of individual. I know these rascals. God is so easy thing that simply by I am thinking that "I am moving the sun, I am moving the..., mo mo mo mo." He'll... because the whole world is mūḍha, we cannot say that "Yes, I am also with you. I am also one of the mūḍha." We cannot say. The votes may be against us but we cannot agree to that. We simply speak for Kṛṣṇa's sake. That is Kṛṣṇa. We cannot make any compromise. What do they say about this version in the Bhagavad*-gītā, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante anya devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. What do they say? What is their opinion? But don't say, "Somebody said..." Everyone is fool, rascal. What is the value of their words? Guest: Or this one mission says, "You worship your is the devatā." Prabhupāda: Yes, I know these rascals. Therefore the country's position is the Godless India. They lost their culture. Vāsughoṣa: They had big propaganda that Sai Baba is God also. He was saying in the... These professors challenged him, so he said, "How can an ant try and understand an ocean?" He made that statement, that the Professor at Bangalore University, Vice Chancellor said that, you know, so many... [break] Prabhupāda: Does that mean we have to accept him? That does not mean we accept. [break] ...one is against this movement because we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. [break] Guest: ...according to him, he said, only yogamāyā has form. The jyoti... We don't call it anything but we want to. (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: That means prostitute. "Everyone is my husband." Prostitution. That's all. [break] ...does not know what is duty. Duty is sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. This is duty. Kṛṣṇa never said that everything is all right. He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: "Simply surrender unto Me." That is duty. They do not know what is duty. And he's manufacturing his duty. That is not duty. Duty is that which is ordered by the superior authorities, "You do this." So if he does that, that is discharge of duty. And if he manufactures his duty, that is not duty. That is concoction. So they are manufacturing duty. That is not duty. If the child manufactures a duty that "I shall play all day. This is my duty," will the parents accept it? Guest: Under... [break] *Prabhupāda: But if he knows? But he does not know. That is the difficulty. That I was explaining, mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍho nābhijānāti. He does not know what is duty because he's a mūḍha. If you say, "If he knows," but "if he knows," means it is difficult to know what is duty. The mūḍhas, they cannot know what is duty. Therefore Kṛṣṇa personally says, "This is duty." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. This is duty. Devotee: Also the "paramahaṁsas never speak," they say. *Prabhupāda: Paramahaṁsa may speak all nonsense, but Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all the ācāryas, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Nimbārka, Caitanya. They are important men. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. So we have to give up the instruction of ācārya and accept some rascal? That we cannot do. Ācāryopāsanam. In Bhagavad*-gītā it is recommended that you should worship the ācārya, not these rascals who talks all nonsense. Then he'll make progress. Ācāryopāsanam. Is it not? Ācāryopāsanam is there. And still in India the ācārya's paramparā system existing, sampradāya. Rāmānuja sampradāya, Madhvācārya sampradāya, Nimbārka, going on. (Hindi) (end) *Morning Walk Excerpt-*-December 4, 1976, Hyderabad Haṁsadūta: ...to Bombay. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: The roadway is always difficult. It's better if you travel by air. [break] Prabhupāda: They are dangerous road. Devotee (1): The roads are not very good. Haṁsadūta: Tribhuvanath is in Gujarat, is that right? Devotee (1): Gujarat, right. Haṁsadūta: He's collecting to get the bus fixed. [break] Another one, a small one. [break] The day Your Divine Grace... [break] ...so much danger with these machines. Not a... [break] Devotee (1): It's very old. Many Arabs are here. Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian man: They come here to get married. They marry local women Muslims and go. Devotee (1): They have so much money, but they only have a desert, so they have to come to India to try and enjoy. There's nothing to enjoy in Arabia, simply sand. Prabhupāda: Arabians come here, I know. Devotee (1): In Bombay also, all the big hotels are filled with Arabians. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Devotee (1): This Taj and Oberoi, so many are there. Prabhupāda: India has good income from Arabian tourist. Devotee (1): Yes. And they come back again and again to India. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Devotee (1): Even in Bahrain I met the brother of the ruler, and he said that he liked India the best of any place he had been. He had been all over the world. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Devotee (1): He said India was the best place. So I told him to stay in our hotel in Juhu next time he came. [break] Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (end) *Morning Walk-*-December 5, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: This rascal theory has meant an atheist. [break] *Vāsughoṣa: ...mānava*-sevā say, "I don't have to support your society or your temple because God is everywhere." *Prabhupāda: This is also mānava*-sevā. We are giving this knowledge to the human society. Is it not sevā? They are remaining in darkness of their position and we are giving them this knowledge. This is not sevā? Vāsughoṣa: But what about the poor, hungry, and the suffering bodies? *Prabhupāda: Yes, poor, hungry, come. We can give you food. We are giving, already. Show the pictures. You have not seen the pictures of Māyāpura, how two thousand, three thousand people we are giving. That is included. Bhāgavata*-sevā includes that. You do not require to do it separately. It is already there. Just like if you pour water on the root, the watering the leaf is included. But if you water the leaf, then that tree will dry. And that is not complete. But if you pour water on the root of the tree, it is complete. Why don't you give this reason? This is natural. If you give food to the stomach, the service of the other parts of the body is included. But if you give food to the eyes, it is spoiled only. The food is spoiled, the eyes are spoiled, and nobody is satisfied. Why don't you give this reason? Vāsughoṣa: So in that way, because they are not feeding the stomach, they are actually starving. Prabhupāda: Starving. They are supplying food to the eyes. The eyes are becoming blind and the food is wasted and no nutrition. Vāsughoṣa: So by this kind of philosophy they are destroying themselves. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is against their interest. These rascals, they do not know what is their interest. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. If you keep the stomach empty and try to supply food to the eyes and legs, it is simply waste of time. But these rascals, they do not know. They will go on committing mistakes after mistakes. This is the position. We are giving the real knowledge that "You serve in this way. Then everyone will be pleased." Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. Vāsughoṣa: They are simply acting out of ignorance. *Prabhupāda: That's it. So you are... We are delivering them from ignorance. (kīrtana*-break) *Devotee (2): ...program in this life is birth, old age, disease and death. And Bhagavad*-gītā gives the remedy for... Prabhupāda: This is good. If you want to stop this repetition of birth, death, old age and disease, then you must take the way of life spoken by... [break] Devotee (2): ...seem to be... *Prabhupāda: Nobody is in healthy condition. (devotee offers obeisances*-break) *Devotee (2): Just like a medicine... We may understand it. For myself, I can tell. I study Bhagavad*-gītā and I understand it, but I find so much difficulty to applicate it to the life of every day because... *Prabhupāda: That is... Everything is difficult but... Why "but"? (pause*-break) ...a physician, to purchase the medicine, to drink the medi..., that is also difficult but we have to do that. *Guest (1) (Indian man): Bhagavad*-gītā gives the way to go back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Guest (1): Bhagavad*-gītā gives the way to go back to Godhead. Otherwise one has to suffer continuously. Prabhupāda: Yes, this material world, birth after birth. One birth, suffering, then again die, again another birth, again suffering. But the people are kept in ignorance. They do not know how the soul is transmigrating. (aside:) Ayi. Betiye.(?) From... Ask them to sit down properly. Why don't you... Is there any seat, proper? So you... (Hindi) What was the topic? What was going on, the topic? Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning we went to this engagement. There was the inauguration of the Vivekananda Society Home, so we went there on saṅkīrtana because we were invited by them. And one swami spoke and he said service to mankind was also service to God. And at the end he also said that Vivekananda used to say that for the housewife, that the cooking pot was becoming God, had become God, had become a God. *Prabhupāda: People applauded. This is foolishness. They do not know how to act. Just like if you pour water on the tree, then it is accepted that you are pouring water on the tree but that is not the process. The process is to pour water on the root of the tree. Practically we... You can make an experiment. Just like here is a tree. You don't pour water on the root but pour water on the leaves. Then it will dry in due course of time. It will not be effective. But if you pour water on the root, the water will go everywhere. So the whole thing is just like a tree. God is the origin of everything. He is the root. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. Therefore He is the root. So if you pour water in the root, then the water is distributed everywhere. But if you pour water on the leaves, on the twigs, on the fruits, it will take time and it will not be successful. So one who is not in awareness of the laws of nature, they commit this mistake. We can say that pouring water on the leaves is also pouring water on the tree. By serving human being you can serve the Supreme Lord, but that is not the way. Another example is that if you supply food to the stomach, then the share is partaken by all the parts of the body. But if you supply food to the part of the body, it is not shared by other part of the body. They are opening hospital for men, human being, but what about the animals? They are also part and parcel of God. They are killing them. So they have no realization of God. God says, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. Suppose I have got several sons. If you take care of my one son and you neglect others I will not be happy, naturally. But if you take care of all my sons, then I'll be happy. For a father there is no such distinction that "My particular son should be taken care of and other should be neglected or they should be killed." That is not father's view. So if God is the father of all living entities, if you take simply care of the human being, then what of the others? There are so many fallacies in this argument, by taking care of the human being you worship God. There are so many fallacies. Hm? Is it not? So you have to put this argument, that "By serving human society is to serve God"*-that is not fact. That may be partially; it is not complete. Devotee (2): Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, so he talked (indistinct). Prabhupāda: I cannot hear. Devotee (2): He didn't talk once about Kṛṣṇa. He didn't mention once the name of Kṛṣṇa, and he didn't say anything about... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the root of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. So He is the root. So you pour water in the root. Just like we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. So because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, does it mean that we are not taking care of the human being? That is automatically coming. But those who are taking care of the human society only, social work, political work, they do not know even what Kṛṣṇa. Missing. That is the difference. Because we are taking of Kṛṣṇa, we have come to the human society. We are teaching them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, spiritual knowledge. That is automatically. We are feeding them, giving them prasādam. That is included. But those who are opening hospitals for human being, they are taking the poor animals to the slaughterhouse, maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. That means foolishness. Kṛṣṇa will not be happy that one son you take care by opening hospital and another son you go, you send him to the slaughterhouse. This is foolishness. Never. God will never be happy. The same example. If the father has got both children*-you take care one of them and others you kill them-will the father be happy? So that is not the way of making the supreme father, God, happy. That is not the way. That is foolish way. Rather, displeasing the father. That is not a very good philosophy. Why you should make distinction? He claims, *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, also Lord Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā at the end that "One who surrenders to Me, he will be delivered from all material reactions and go to (indistinct)." But it is also said that some persons, they are more inclined to surrender than others. Prabhupāda: Yes. You should surrender; you should request others to surrender. That is service. Devotee (2): But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it because of their karma, past activity, that... *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. One can immediately surrender if he likes. The background has nothing to do. Even the background is sinful, Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi: [Bg. 18.66] "I shall save you from reaction of sinful life." Then there is no consideration of their background. You simply surrender. Then it will be solved, everything. Devotee (2): But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, has anyone got the same ability to surrender, because... Prabhupāda: Everyone has got. If I say, "You surrender," you just... What is... If you disagree, that is another. Otherwise you can surrender immediately. Where is the difficulty? Devotee (2): So it's just by our personal whim that we can surrender. Prabhupāda: Anyone can surrender immediately. There is no difficulty. But if he does not, then nobody can induce him. Otherwise, if he likes, he can surrender immediately. And He said, voluntary. Kṛṣṇa does not force. If He would have forced, then He would not say, "You surrender." No, it is your will. If you like, you surrender. If I say, "You do this," that is not force. If you like, you can do. That is your interest. Yathecchasi tathā kuru: [Bg. 18.63] "Whatever you like, you do that. But I give you the right instruction, that if you surrender, you'll be happy." That is the greatest service. If you teach people how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the greatest service. That will solve his all problems. (aside:) Dayānanda has... That's all. Bring water. If you don't surrender, then go on suffering. That's all. That is your business. You should surrender... Guest (2) (Indian man): I have got some doubt. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Guest (2): If we are all children of Lord Kṛṣṇa-all the living beings are a part of Kṛṣṇa*-in that case childrens in thousands and hundreds who are killed every day... Prabhupāda: That is created by you, that you may become the sons of one father, but every one of you has got different tendency. Guest (2): But I can't see how... Prabhupāda: No, no, just try to understand that we are all sons of Kṛṣṇa. That's nice. (aside:) No, there is another one. Devotee: Of brass? Prabhupāda: It is silver. You go. All right. A father has got five sons. Some of them are very learned; some of them are foolish. Why? Does the father like that "The some of my sons should be rascals, and others should be very nice?" Does the father like it? Then why he becomes? Hm? Guest (2): If one becomes... Prabhupāda: (Hindi) That we say. Consider. But these varieties are there, so how you can check it? Cause may be different. I have seen while I was in Allahabad one big barrister's sons. One became barrister; another became ekala.(?) You know ekala? Ekala driver. So the father did not like that "One of my sons should become ekala, and other son should be like me, barrister," but I have seen. And there are many instances. The father does not want that "My son should be vagabond, useless," but sometimes they become by their own activities. That independence everyone has got. So that is not father's creation. Your point was "Why God has created like that?" That is foolishness. God says that you surrender." But you do not surrender. That is your foolishness. Guest (2): (indistinct) ...must be punished. *Prabhupāda: Eh? Naturally. Suppose if there is some infectious disease, the doctor says, "Don't go there." And if you go there, you'll be infected. You'll suffer. How the doctor can protect you? Doctor's duty is to warn you not to go to that area, "It is now infected with smallpox." But in spite of doctor's instruction, if you go there and if you infect that disease and suffer, then it is your fault. When a man is hanged by the judgment of the court, do you think that the high*-court judge is inimical to that person? He's giving judgment to other persons that "This one must make one lakh of rupees from that person." And next judgment, "This man must be hanged." Does it mean the high-court judge is partial? He's simply giving judgment on the merit of the particular case. So there is no argument that "Why God has created so many varieties?" God has not created. You have created. Man is the architect of his own fortune. Fortune and misfortune you have created. So we have to suffer or so-called enjoy. There is no enjoyment here. It is simply suffering. But because you are under māyā, you are thinking suffering as enjoying. Just like a hog is eating stool. Other man is becoming... "Very abominable!" Oh what nasty thing he is..." But he is enjoying. He is thinking, "I am enjoying the best food." I have seen in airplane. One Indian gentleman, he was eating the intestine of the hog. So it was horrible for me, but he was eating very nice. So in this way the world is going on. "One man's food is another man's poison." So similarly, we are creating our next birth according to our desire. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. According to the infection of the different modes of material nature, we are creating good or bad body next life. The laws of nature is unknown to the foolish society. They are thinking, "This life is everything. Misled, they do not know the aim of life. That is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. One blind leader is leading other blind men. This is going on. And when we present the real solution, they say it is brainwash. Now against our movement there is propaganda in USA, charging that "He has brainwashed them." (aside:) You can come here. (Hindi) "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." This is our position. When we speak all these things, they say it is brainwashing movement. Actually it is brainwashing movement because we are dissipating all kinds of misunderstanding, values of life. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. It is not brainwashing; *it is heart*-washing. Our heart is stacked with so many dirty things, so we are trying to wash it. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. And that is our movement. We are trying to cleanse the heart so that he can understand himself. One can understand his real position and then do the needful and life becomes successful. Guest (3) (Indian man): Where is soul? *Jagad*-guru: He is asking where is the soul. Prabhupāda: Can you see? So soul is within the heart. When the soul goes away you cannot explain what happened. You say, "heart failure." So why the heart failure? The nerves and the bones and the muscle and the blood, everything is there, and still, you say that "It stopped. Heart failure." So just like machine is running but somehow or other stopped, but you do not know what is the cause of stopping. The cause is that the heart, when it goes away, then the machine stops. Guest (3): God is within the soul also. *Prabhupāda: Yes. God is along with you. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. He is there. *Guest (4) (Indian man): Swamiji, in Bhagavad*-gītā it is telling karma also and surrendering also. Now, how it is possible? In karma-kāṇḍa (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Karma, if you do... Just like we are preaching so many people to surrender to Kṛṣṇa but will do not do. Do you think our, this instruction, that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," is taken by everyone? Do you think? Suppose you are all here. We are preaching the same thing, that "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." But these boys, they have surrendered, but you have not surrendered. Guest (4): (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand. It is... The free will is there. If you don't surrender, then, Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ: "Instead of sitting idly, better you do your prescribed duty." So the prescribed duty is cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. According to guṇa and karma, there are four divisions. So if you are in the first-class division as brāhmaṇa, you do the brāhmaṇa's work. If you are a kṣatriya, you do the kṣatriya's... Niyataṁ kuru karma. What is you are destined, you do that nicely. Don't be idle. That is Kṛṣṇa's in... But if you are intelligent, then Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. But you are foolish; then you be engaged in your prescribed duty. And if you are intelligent, then "You give up everything; simply surrender to Me." That depends on you. If you are intelligent, you'll surrender; if you are not intelligent, be engaged in your karma. Kṛṣṇa is giving all facilities. Now it is up to you to make your selection. But he says, niyataṁ kuru karma. Find out this verse. Devotee (3): Should I read the translation? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): "Perform your prescribed duties, for action is better than inaction." Prabhupāda: But if you have no prescribed duties, then you are animal. Just like monkey. What is his duty? He is jumping simply and creating havoc. Monkey is very busy. Wherever he'll sit down, he'll "Gat, gat, gat, gat," like this. That's all. Very busy. But what is the meaning of his business? Simply creating disturbance Therefore it is said, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam: "Act on your prescribed duties." Don't act like a monkey. That is better. What is that? Devotee (3): "For action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." Prabhupāda: Then? Purport? *Devotee (3): Purport. "There are many pseudo*-meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set for kṣatriyas. Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart..." Prabhupāda: You are following? Go on. *Devotee (3): "...and free him from material contamination. So*-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so, through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others." *Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad*-gītā is giving you gradual process to the highest point and highest point is to surrender. That is the most confidential part of knowledge. Sarva-guhyatamam. Guhyād guhyataram. Find out this verse, eighteenth chapter. He has given the instruction of karma, yoga, jñāna, everything, but the most confidential instruction is this. Devotee (3): Prabhupāda: Is there any purport? *Devotee (3): "The Lord has given Arjuna confidential knowledge of the Supersoul within everyone's heart, and now he is giving the most confidential part of this knowledge: just surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At the end of the Ninth Chapter he has said, 'Just always think of Me.' The same instruction is repeated here to stress the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā. This essence is not understood by a common man, but by one who is actually very dear to Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. This is the most important instruction in all Vedic literature. What Kṛṣṇa is saying in this connection is the most essential part of knowledge, and it should be carried out not only by Arjuna but by all living entities." Prabhupāda: Guhyatamam, most confidential. This is not for all, but for the advanced person and who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, He says, iṣṭo 'si me? What is that next? Iṣṭo 'si? Devotee (3): Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi. Prabhupāda: Dṛḍham? Devotee (3): Dṛḍham. Prabhupāda: No. What is the spelling? Devotee (3): Dṛḍham. Prabhupāda: No, no, the word, separate word? Iṣṭo 'si? *Devotee (3): D*-r-d-h-a-m. Prabhupāda: Hitam. Devotee (3): Dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi te hitam. *Prabhupāda: Te hitam. So it is not for all. One who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee, for him, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man-"You do your prescribed duty." But they have no prescribed duty even. The people of this age, they are so fallen, they have no prescribed duty. They are simply engaged like animals*-eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. That's all. Animal is engaged like that, eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. So we are being educated only like animals. We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, utmost, śūdra, like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping, and sex, and defense. Therefore śāstra says, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. You should not live the life of a hog, viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ-bhujām means the stool eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong then, "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life. So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13], and then your prescribed duties are there. If you want to become a brāhmaṇa, then śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. If you want to be kṣatriya, tejaḥ... What is that? Tejaḥ śauryaṁ yujyaṁ yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam. If you want to be a vaiśya, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. And if you want to remain a śūdra, paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam. And that is prescribed duty. You classify yourself, either as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, by quality, not by caste or by whims, no. Actually by qualification. Then you engage yourself in that duty. That is niyataṁ karma tvam. Otherwise, jumping like monkeys, that is not karma. That is monkey's dance. It has no value. Wasting time. You should not waste time, a single moment. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. So make that. Don't waste your time. That's all right. And she is child. What can be done? You cannot... Guest (2): Swamiji, what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa says, you hear and do. Just like you are now acting, family conscious or country conscious or society conscious. The dog is also working as dog conscious. Monkey is working, monkey conscious. He is thinking, "I am monkey." You are thinking you are Indian. He is thinking he is American. He is thinking as..., so on, so on, different consciousness. But when you act Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is your real dharma. Now we are working under different consciousness, therefore varieties. And when you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is oneness, perfection, to act according to the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. What Kṛṣṇa says, you act accordingly. You are acting... The Communists, they are acting Lenin consciousness. Is it not? Their god is Lenin. I have been in Moscow. Everywhere Lenin's picture, Lenin's book, and they are worshiping Lenin's tomb. That is Lenin consciousness. So similarly, you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Guest (5) (Indian man): Those who have become Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will see Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise where is consciousness? If you do not think of Kṛṣṇa. Just like these boys. They are always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, either chanting or reading book or selling book or writing book, preaching Kṛṣṇa, twenty*-four hours, taking Kṛṣṇa's prasādam, taking rest for working in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything in Kṛṣṇa, chanting always Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have no other business. Guest (6) (Indian man): What is the meaning of good citizen? Good citizen? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is spiritual vision. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme spirit, and if you remain Kṛṣṇa conscious, then spiritual vision. That is spiritual. Guest (6): Swamiji, you have seen Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: What do you think? We are all rascals, blindly following? Do you think like that? Then why I have not seen? Why do you ask this? If we are acting for Kṛṣṇa, do you mean to say that we are following blindly? Do you think like that? What is your opinion? If we have not seen Kṛṣṇa, then how we are acting for Kṛṣṇa? Hm? What is your idea? We are all fools, that without seeing the master we are acting? Do you think like that? Why don't you answer? This is foolish question. How one can serve a master without seeing the master? Is it a fact that without seeing the master one is serving? Find out this verse, sarvatra yo māṁ paśyati, mayi ca sarvaṁ paśyati, like that. Devotee (3): Sarvatra? Prabhupāda: Yo māṁ paśyati. Or yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra. Find out. Devotee (3): Prabhupāda: Is there a purport? *Devotee (3): "A person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness certainly sees Lord Kṛṣṇa everywhere, and he sees everything in Kṛṣṇa. Such a person may appear to see all separate manifestations of the material nature, but in each and every instance he is conscious of Kṛṣṇa, knowing that everything is the manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Nothing can exist without Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the Lord of everything-this is the basic principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the development of love of Kṛṣṇa*-a position transcendental even to material liberation. It is the stage beyond self-realization at which the devotee becomes one with Kṛṣṇa in the sense that Kṛṣṇa becomes everything for the devotee, and the devotee becomes full in loving Kṛṣṇa. An intimate relationship between the Lord and the devotee then exists. In that stage, the living entity attains his immortality. Nor is the Personality of Godhead ever out of the sight of the devotee. To merge in Kṛṣṇa is spiritual annihilation. A devotee takes no such risk. It is stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā, premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]." Prabhupāda: Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. He sees every moment. *Devotee (3): "Yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya*-guṇa-svarūpam..." *Prabhupāda: Govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. Devotee (3): " 'I worship the primeval Lord Govinda who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of Śyāmasundara situated within the heart of the devotee.' At this stage Lord Kṛṣṇa never disappears from the sight of the devotee, nor does the devotee ever lose sight of the Lord. In the case of a yogi who sees the Lord as Paramātmā within the heart, the same applies. Such a yogi turns into a pure devotee and cannot bear to live for a moment without seeing the Lord within himself." *Prabhupāda: You are seeing also Kṛṣṇa, but because you have no love, therefore you cannot appreciate how we are seeing. If you love some person you keep his photograph on the breast. Is it not? So you are seeing Kṛṣṇa in the temple, but because you have no love you think that "I am not seeing Him." That is the defect. They are seeing Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why they have sacrificed everything for worshiping Kṛṣṇa, for dressing Kṛṣṇa, for feeding Kṛṣṇa? They are seeing Kṛṣṇa. They are not wasting their time. But you have no love for Kṛṣṇa. You're thinking that "They have not seen Kṛṣṇa. They are worshiping an idol." That is the difference. One who loves somebody he keeps his picture on his chest. He does not? He throws it, same picture. It is question of love. Therefore it is said, premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu [Bs. 5.38]. One who has developed that love and bhakti, he can see Kṛṣṇa at every moment. Otherwise it is not possible. And because you cannot see, you ask them also, "Can you see?" But the seeing process is different. We do not know the process; therefore we are thinking that Kṛṣṇa cannot be seen. And one who knows the process, he sees every moment. Is it clear? You learn the process; *you will see Kṛṣṇa every moment. Therefore this word is used, premāñjana*-cchurita. By the eye ointment of love you have to smear your eyes; *then you'll be able to see Kṛṣṇa. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. Find out this verse. Yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ. When one's eyes is covered by the yoga-māyā he cannot see, see Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (3): Prabhupāda: Mūḍho 'yaṁ na abhijānāti: "Those who are rascals, they cannot see." Mūḍho 'yaṁ na abhijānāti. So one has to become interested how to see Kṛṣṇa. Guest (7) (Indian man): Satya Sai Baba says... Prabhupāda: Satya Sai Baba is not authority. Guest (7): No, no, I don't accept. Prabhupāda: Then why you quote him? We are not prepared to hear his words. Guest (7): Kindly clear off my doubt. Prabhupāda: No... That is another thing. That is another thing. Guest (7): All the miracles only just to increase confidence and... Prabhupāda: Why...? Magic is magic. That is another thing. That is not knowledge. Guest (7): Suppose if I want to talk here Kṛṣṇa consciousness among the masses... Prabhupāda: No, we have to push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, not by the ways and means by Sai Baba. That is foolishness. Guest (7): Can I attain such magical powers? Prabhupāda: So why? What is the use? We are not using any magical powers. Guest (7): Just to convince the people. Prabhupāda: Why this foolishness? We never... Ask my disciples. I have never shown any magic. Why? Bhāgavata: That is a cheap business. Prabhupāda: That is cheating business. That is not required. It is meant for the foolish men. Guest (7): ...Suri Bhavantam (?), he was convinced by him just because of his magical powers. Prabhupāda: Who? Guest (7): Suri Bhavantam (?) is a scientist. He was convinced by him just because of his magical powers. Otherwise he could not influence me. One of my friends who was sitting there, he told me, "Satya Sai Baba, he won't come this side," he said. I said, "I'll make him to come this side." Prabhupāda: No, these are words. He has been challenged also by a group of educated men. So there are some fools, rascals. That is all... Guest (7): I have got belief in God, and so Narendra, my friend was sitting by my side. "No, if I sit there only, he will go that way. I want to see him this side." Prabhupāda: Do you accept Sai Baba as God? Guest (7): No, no, not at all. Prabhupāda: Then why do you speak all this? That's... Guest (7): Not even greater than me. I don't think like that. He is also a human being like me. Guest (6): In the *Bhāgavatam* it is said that (quotes Sanskrit verse). (indistinct) Guest (7): And he could not do his siddhi before (indistinct). If it is real siddhi he could have showed all his powers even before (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: Go to the standard of knowledge. Bhagavad*-gītā is accepted by the the ācāryas, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. So take that standard. Why do you go to the rascals and fools? Unless you are rascal and fool, you cannot go to the rascal and fool. Why? You take. If you want to know God, take the standard knowledge which is accepted by the... Ācāryopāsanam. You take the knowledge through the ācāryas. Why from a rascal? That is not knowledge. Kṛṣṇa recommends how to take the knowledge. Eh? Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam [Bg. 13.8]. Worship the ācārya. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Just read this. What is that? Devotee (3): Amānitvam adambhitvam... Prabhupāda: This is the process of knowledge. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāt [SB 11.17.27]. If you go to ācārya, then you'll know the knowledge. What is this, go to a magician, a rascal? Magician is authority? There are so many magicians. So one should go for God to a magician? Ācāryopāsanam. Go to ācārya. That is recommended. Why should you go to the magician? That is your fault. You go to the wrong person, and you are cheated because you want to be cheated. You want to see magic; *you don't want to see God. God is personally speaking, accepted God, not that by magical... And who can show greater magic than Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa, when He was seven years old, He lifted the Govardhana Hill. Can this rascal do that? Who can be greater magician than Kṛṣṇa? So we shall go to the greatest magician. Why shall I go to a tiny magician? That is our misfortune. If you want to see magic, see the magic, what Kṛṣṇa has done. This is our misfortune, that we go to a wrong person and misled. If you want magician, see Kṛṣṇa, how great magician He is. He married sixteen thousand wives. Is there any instance in the history of the world that one has sixteen thousand wives and maintaining each of them? And he expanded himself in sixteen thousand husbands. Not that one wife is waiting: "When sixteen thousand, after sixteen thousand nights, He would come here?" No. He is present everywhere. That is magic. Nārada was surprised that "How Kṛṣṇa is maintaining sixteen thousand wives?" He saw in each and every home sixteen thousand establishment and Kṛṣṇa is present everywhere. So this is magic. Why don't you see Kṛṣṇa's magic? Why you are so much allured by a tiny magician? That is your misfortune. Poor heart, poor magic. See the real magic. If you want to see magic, see the Kṛṣṇa's magic. Kṛṣṇa, when He was three months old, the Pūtanā came to kill the child by poisoning but she was killed. So in this way, from the very beginning of Kṛṣṇa's appearance, He's killing so many demons. So why don't you see this magic? If you want to see magic, see Kṛṣṇa's magic. Why the poor magic? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-loka-maheśvaram: [Bg. 5.29] "I am the proprietor of all the lokas." And each loka... Suppose this loka, earthly planet. There are hundreds of gold mines. Why you are captivated with the chaṭāka gold? Why don't you be captivated by the person who has millions of gold mines by His wish? So we are poor; therefore we are captivated by poor magician. If we are intelligent, then we should be captivated by Kṛṣṇa's magic. That is intelligence. But we are poor; we are captivated by poor magic. That's all. Don't be poor. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Don't remain mūḍhas. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then your life will be successful. That is Kṛṣṇa knowledge. Janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. Anyone who understands Kṛṣṇa's activities, then he becomes liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. Why don't you use your valuable time for understand Kṛṣṇa? Why you are captured by the poor rascal magicians? That means we are unfortunate. If we become captivated by tiny magician, that means we are unfortunate. Be captivated by the magic Kṛṣṇa has shown. That is the point. *Guest (8) (Indian man): Your Divine Grace, there is Mukunda*-mālā-stotra by Kulaśekhara Mahārāja. Are there any translations of that in the English and other languages? (indistinct) ...ślokas with you (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa mantra? Prabhupāda: Yes. I think we have translated Kulaśekhara... It is not published, but I have translated. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, some of these devotees are required to... With your permission, I'd like to have some of the devotees come out for kīrtana and... Prabhupāda: So? You can go to the ārati, kīrtana. Go. You also go. [break] Devotee: ...the argument that after saying "surrender to Kṛṣṇa," and becoming free from the miseries of material life we remain still going home, still a devotee who comes through the heat, still a devotee who is dying just like an ordinary man. Prabhupāda: It is an argument like this, that "You have gone to a physician for curing your disease. Why you are not cured?" This is nonsense question. It will take some time to be cured. Do you mean to say as soon as you go to the physician, you become cured? Do you think? Why don't you answer like that? A foolish man will say like that, that "You have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are now suffering?" Yes, suffering will be... Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. So the assurance is there. You take the treatment. Why do you expect? Immediately you go to the physician. A father gets the daughter married, expecting a child. Does it mean as soon as she's married, immediately child? And if a rascal says, "Oh, she is married, and there is no child?" Because he's a rascal. You must wait. Now she is married, it is sure she'll have child. That's a fact. But if the rascal wants, "Now my daughter is married. There is no child?" What is this nonsense? This question is like that, that "You have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are suffering?" You cannot answer this? Devotee: Yes. Also you give the example of the cat catching up the mouse and the cat... *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But first thing is that why do you want immediately effect? That is foolishness. The effect will be there. Therefore it is called dhairya. Utsāhād dhairyāt. Dhairya means patience. You act God acting with patience. The result will be niścaya. The result will be there. These things are required. Utsāhād dhairyāt niścayāt tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt, sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati. So why you should have a foolish person-"Now I come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have become immediately everything. Give up everything?" Why do you think like this? The same example: The girl is married, now it is sure that she'll have child. Wait. Niścaya. When there is husband and wife there will be child. There is no doubt about it, but wait. Why do you expect immediately child on the day of marriage. This is foolishness. So you should answer these rascals like that. "You cannot expect immediately. But we are on the path. We have just entered." One enters into the school. Does it mean in one year or six months he becomes MA? He has to wait. But he has entered the school. There is expectation of his passing MA examination. But one who has not entered school, loitering in the street, he has no... He's hopeless. But this man has hope. Wait. The same example: If one girl is not married, then where is the question of child? Everything has to wait. Therefore it is said, utsāhād dhairyāt. One should have proper enthusiasm and patience. That is wanted. How one foolishly expects the result immediately? You sow the seed; you water it; it grows; then it becomes big tree; then pick the fruit; then eat. Immediately you cannot expect. Immediately you have got. As soon as you get the seed, you have got the thing, undoubtedly. But you must give time the seed to fructify. That required. Guest (2): What exists between the planet Gokula and the (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: There is a planet who is full of cows, Gokula. That's it. Surabhīr abhipālayantam. Cintāmaṇi*-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam [Bs. 5.29]. Kṛṣṇa is engaged there in tending cows, surabhī cows. That is Gokula. That planet is full of cows. Guest (2): What I mean to say is what exists between any two of the planets of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: What exists? Guest (2): In the two abodes of the plenary expansion of Kṛṣṇa. What exists? *Prabhupāda: Plenary? Yes, Kṛṣṇa is expanding millions and millions forms. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca [Bs. 5.33]. That is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. He is expanded, and He's living in your heart, my heart, ant's heart, everyone's heart. These are expansions, Paramātmā. Guest (9) (Indian man): Sir, his point is what exists between the planets? Guest (2): This intervening medium? Prabhupāda: So you do not know the outer space? Outer space? The space is there. Just this planet, sun planet, there is space between... You do not know this? Eh? Guest (2): Do you mean to say there is no space between His planets? Prabhupāda: I mean to say. Now you mean to say also. You do not know there is space difference between one planet to another? Guest (2): Unless it is bounded by space. Prabhupāda: So whatever it may be, there is difference. Just like you are existing. I am existing. There is space. So what is the difficulty? Guest (2): No, but actually it is beyond space and time. Guest (9): Spiritual planets, he means to say. Guest (2): They are beyond space. Guest (4): They are beyond time and space. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what does he mean? What does he mean? Guest (10): What is your point? *Prabhupāda: The point is that... You can explain in this way, that goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma*-bhūtaḥ [Bs. 5.37]. Kṛṣṇa is in the Goloka planet which is far, far away from our planet, but still He is everywhere. That is the difference. That you cannot imagine. In our material knowledge you cannot imagine that. But that is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi: [Bg. 9.26] "Anyone offering Me in devotion patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam, I eat." Now, Kṛṣṇa is living far, far away in the Goloka planet. How He can eat? That is your imagining. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, I do." That is Kṛṣṇa. Although He is far, far away, He is within your heart. That you cannot imagine, how it is possible. That is your material knowledge. But you have to accept from the statement of śāstra that although He is far, far away, within your heart. Aṇḍāntara-stha-para... He is within the atom also. So that you cannot imagine. That requires a different knowledge, Vedic knowledge. The material knowledge will not help you, but you cannot imagine. You have to accept Vedic knowledge. What is stated in the Vedas, that you have to accept. That's all. Otherwise there is no possibility. Therefore to understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's activities you have to learn from Kṛṣṇa. That is Bhagavad-gītā. You cannot manufacture your knowledge. That is not... Because you are defective-your senses are imperfect-so whatever knowledge you get through your senses, that is all imperfect. You cannot get perfect knowledge by your imperfect senses. That is not possible. Therefore the Vedic injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. In order to learn that transcendental science you have to approach a guru who knows it. Guest (2): It is said there that holy planets is the... Prabhupāda: Who says? Who says? Who is the sayer? An imperfect person, that's all. Guest (2): No, it is in the *Bhāgavatam*. That's what I am saying. Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that? Guest (2): That holy planets exist between the lotus stem that's sprouting from navel of Kṛṣṇa. But there are many planets, millions of planets... *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is all explained there. Yasyaika*-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ [Bs. 5.48]. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya. The Mahā-Viṣṇu's breathing and with the breathing innumerable planets are coming, brahmāṇḍas are coming out. Yasya eka niśvasita-kālam atha avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ. Jagad-aṇḍa means universe, and jagad-aṇḍa-nāthaḥ means Brahmā. Millions of Brahmās living within the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. So we have to accept this Vedic knowledge. You cannot compare with your limited knowledge. That is not... Guest (4): His argument is that everything is bound by space. Prabhupāda: Yes, space is there. Guest (4): No, it's in the pits of the... Prabhupāda: Space. Space grows, Brahman. Bṛhatvād bṛhannatvāt.(?) Brahman means the greatest. The space is considered to be the greatest. So it is not only greatest but it is expanding more and more. It is becoming greater and greater. Just like some children. They made some foam, soap. It becomes bigger, bigger, bigger. It is like that. It comes from the breathing period but as soon as come out it becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. That is bṛhatvād bṛhannatvāt, Brahman, the greatest. A small seed of banyan tree, very small, you cannot... It becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, and so big tree. It is... You see daily how it is coming. Can you make such seed, you scientist? Can you make? Then? Why do you compare your poor knowledge with Kṛṣṇa's knowledge? That is your poor fund of knowledge. You are thinking that "Kṛṣṇa may be like me." You can just compare the small banyan tree seed, just like a mustard seed, and it contains such a big tree, not only big tree, millions of seeds also, containing another millions of big trees. Can you make such seed? Hm? You scientists, can you make? You tell me. Can you prepare that seed? Then what you are scientists? See Kṛṣṇa's science. Don't compare yourself with Kṛṣṇa's science even. Guest (2): No, one thing, if you say Goloka is infinite we should be existing within Gokula. How is it that we are without Gokula? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are within Kṛṣṇa; therefore you are within Gokula. Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa is within us. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And Kṛṣṇa is without. That is Kṛṣṇa, antar bahiḥ. Antar bahiḥ. Kuntī says in her prayers that "Kṛṣṇa, You are antar bahiḥ. Still, people cannot understand. You are... Without, You are existing, and within, You are..." Still, they are so rascal, they cannot understand. Antar bahiḥ. Kṛṣṇa is without, Kṛṣṇa is within, but they cannot see. That is their misfortune. Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. Kṛṣṇa is within the paramāṇu, atom. Can you find out Kṛṣṇa? He says, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd... [Bg. 18.61]. He is within your heart. Can you find out? Then where is your science? It is already indicated that He is here. Find out. How you can find out? The dimension of the soul is given, one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. The tip of the hair, you divide into ten thousand parts and that one part is the dimension of the soul. How can you find out? Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīvo bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. Everything is written there. Now you find out the measurement. You cannot find out measurement of the tip of the hair. And you have to divide into ten thousand parts. Then the measurement of the soul will come. So how can you do it? But they are described in the śāstra. So go and see ārati. (end) *Morning Walkand Room Conversation-*-December 7, 1976, Hyderabad Mahāṁśa: ...plant more trees, orchards for fruits and flowers, flower garden. So there will be plenty of flowers for the altar in Hyderabad every day and for the programs here. [break] Prabhupāda: ...walking road. Mahāṁśa: Yes. This road also, we want to extend it all the way to the end of the land. Prabhupāda: Very good. Mahāṁśa: The same road. That's where the dioramas will be. [break] Devotee (1): ...having lunch with the cowherd boys on this rocky place and then people can come and sit here also. Prabhupāda: Later on. First of all grow vegetable. Let us eat first of all. Immediately grow vegetables sufficient. And this is good idea, we shall do that, but first of all let us organize the vegetables, fruits. What are these trees? Mahāṁśa: These are nimbu [lemon] trees which Badrukas have planted and were neglected. They have become very stunted. We dug them out, and we put some cow dung just last, two, three months back. We're going to bring them up, but they will not be very good now. They've already been stunted. Prabhupāda: Hm? Mahāṁśa: They have been neglected in the beginning, so they have become stunted. So it will help a little by manuring, and some places it has to be grafted and cut off. Some of the trees are good. We get... How many nimbus did we get this year? Prabhupāda: Make nimbu-ācāra [lemon pickle]. Mahāṁśa: Oh yes, we made... Acyutagaja isn't here. One devotee here, he knows how to make it. He made very nice nimbu-ācāra. Prabhupāda: Simply salt and lemon juice. Cut some pieces into half and soak it in lemon juice and put sufficient salt. In due course it will be very nice, thick. Very digestible. [break] Not yet utilized. So you have to do that. [break] Mahāṁśa: ...a trench and a hedge, which has been planted here so that people and animals... Animals is the main problem. They come and they eat up the plants which we grow. So by having this trench we avoid animals from getting in and a hedge also. There'll be a lot of... One big problem that the Badrukas faced was that there was tremendous pilferage. These village people, they live on this land. They used to cut all the wood here for fire, they used to take whatever grows here, maize, and they used to steal in the night everything. Many times... Prabhupāda: So ask them to chant and take prasādam. They will be rectified. Make them friends, family members. Just we organize, everything is there. Devotee (2): Yesterday this truck came. Mahāṁśa: Yes, I told Prabhupāda. [break] Prabhupāda: It is full of dust, and we have to believe this. Indian man: No. Prabhupāda: Just see, a rascal scientist, "Full of dust." *Jagad*-guru: Their brains are full of dust. Prabhupāda: Yes. They have never gone to the moon planet. Simply bluff. [break] Devotee (3): ...this a reflection of the sun or is it his own light? Prabhupāda: Own light. Devotee (3): It comes also from the living entities on the moon? Prabhupāda: No, there are fire, just like there is fire in the sun, but it is covered with ice. Therefore it is cooling. Devotee (2): You mean ice is covering the fire? Prabhupāda: Yes, surrounding, cold atmosphere. Something like... But it is fiery. And how they say that sun reflects some dust? Eh? How people believe it? [break] ...to be given in charge some plot of land to develop it. Mahāṁśa: One problem that could arise by giving them a fixed place, especially giving these labor people, if we give them a fixed place, then tomorrow they may... If they break the principles we may want to remove them. Prabhupāda: No, you should change every month. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Because the new phrases by the government is that "Tillers become owners." Whoever tills the land, he becomes... Prabhupāda: And this society is the society tillers, no individual person. Mahāṁśa: Right. Prabhupāda: Society means some combination of some men. Devotee (4): These are very fantastic stones here. Especially this one stone. Prabhupāda: Who explains how the stone came like this? Devotee (4): Yes, I think it's wonderful. Devotee (5): They will say from the formation of the mud. Mud accumulated over the years and became stone. Or vice versa. Devotee (4): This one stone is so big. It is just holding on a little stone, it is just in the air, like somebody's underneath and holding it. [break] Prabhupāda: Cow dung can be collected. At least they can be used as cow dung. Here, you should. Devotee (6): In the small villages the women and children they make the paddy for burning in cooking. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: This whole rocky area which we see here used to be like a natural dam, and the land on that side which is now our field used to be a big tank so the soil there is very good. It's like silt. But then, afterwards, somebody had cut through this natural dam and there's a canal that flows through here and goes into that tank over there. Prabhupāda: The canal is in our land? Mahāṁśa: Yes, it passes through our land. Plenty of water, and it goes and flows into that land, into that tank. Prabhupāda: So but you cannot use that? Mahāṁśa: That tank is not practical to use, to pump so far. But we can dam this again and make a reservoir and let the excess flow. But they won't let us stop all the water because it will ruin their fields but we can stop a part of the water for our field. We can get a good source reservoir of water over here. Hari-śauri: Tejas is getting breakfast ready, I think. Jagadīśa: Yeah, he has to cook. Devotee: You can see the canal from here. You can see (indistinct). Hari-śauri: Just down there at the base of that rock. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: Water from the canal. Prabhupāda: It is coming? You can go? Mahāṁśa: I think the ground becomes muddy. Jagadīśa: Go and check, Jagadānanda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Mahāṁśa: It's not very good soil but there is... Right around this rocky area there is this... Research people from the central government, they have brought out a grass called Dinanath, lord of the poor, and they say that you can put this grass in the monsoon time, put the seeds in, just plow it and put the seeds and it's a very sturdy grass. It will grow for the whole year. And the cows can graze there. Prabhupāda: So do that. Mahāṁśa: So this whole area could be with that grass and the cows can graze. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Many temples for kīrtana and around the temple let them live. Yes. All viṣṇumūrti, yes. Mahāṁśa: How many families should live around... Prabhupāda: As many possible. Mahāṁśa: Those who are attracted to that particular Deity. Prabhupāda: They will be attracted. If you follow this program they will be attracted, prasādam and chanting. Devotee (5): Especially people in this area, they are attracted to Bālajī. Prabhupāda: Then? Devotee (5): They call "Govinda, Govinda," always. Prabhupāda: Then? They are already devotees. Devotee (5): They spend their whole year's savings to go to Tirupati. Prabhupāda: Now let them spend here for the temple. Mahāṁśa: And live here. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will be glad. Mahāṁśa: Then the Tirupati managers will become envious. Devotee (4): How shall the worship be in the temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the small temples. What shall they worship? Prabhupāda: Yes, you introduce kīrtana. Devotee (4): Kīrtana? Prabhupāda: That's all. And whatever they eat must be offered. That's all. *Devotee (4): Pañca*-tattva picture? *Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes, any viṣṇu*-tattva. We have got in our, what is called, cover so many Viṣṇu names. Devotee (5): Yes, on the *Bhāgavatam*. *Mahāṁśa: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, all the different planets. Prabhupāda: They'll be glad to have darśana. "Here is Padmanābha; here is Mādhava; here is Govinda; here is Pradyumna," like that. Mahāṁśa: And then there must be one main temple over there, one major temple. Prabhupāda: No, every temple is... You can make a main temple there. They'll be remembering Viṣṇu's name always. "Here is Padmanābha temple; here is Mādhava temple; here is Govinda temple," that's all. Devotee (5): When the cows goes on grazing, they'll go... *Prabhupāda: Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sa... Remembering the holy names of the Lord. Mahāṁśa: This stone is the boundary on this side. Prabhupāda: This stone. Mahāṁśa: This stone. Devotee (4): The tree's coming inside our land. Mahāṁśa: No, tree goes in. Other land is here. It goes all the way to that rock over there, Prabhupāda, that rock over there. We are almost at one corner of the land. And the land goes very far to that side. Prabhupāda: Who possesses that land? Mahāṁśa: This is all our land. This is the village people's land here. And then it goes from behind this tree, it goes all the way to the water. There's a little portion that juts out from here. It goes all the way to the water. Jagadīśa: Our land. Mahāṁśa: Yes, our land. We can go this way and... Devotee (4): Should ISKCON devotees live in each of these little villages? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes, surrounding the temple. Jagadīśa: They'll all be ISKCON devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Turn them all ISKCON devotees, even these villagers. *Mahāṁśa: Give them neckbeads and japa*-mālā. Devotee (5): For some particular religion, a small temple here. Mahāṁśa: Hanumān? Devotee (5): Hanumān temple. Two hundred people used to come and dance yesterday night. Prabhupāda: They'll come to da...? No. Devotee (5): We went to the villages there to announce about our program. Devotee (4): Hampi. We were in Hampi, Karnataka State, and big rocks like this were there and the people over the years constructed literally hundreds of small temples, some big. Some they cut directly into the rocks and then put in the mūrti there. Mahāṁśa: There is one Nṛsiṁha temple over here which is very unusual. It is inside of... There is a big rock, and it is right inside the rock and if someone wants to have darśana, he has to crawl inside to see it. The rock goes like this and he has to actually crawl in to see the Deity. Seems to be very, very old. [break] Prabhupāda: ...on our? Mahāṁśa: Yes. This is all ours, all this. Devotee (4): The government is making propaganda for hard work, so they should come and with hard work they can make nice temple from these rocks. Prabhupāda: You show the example. They will see. [break] ...like it, eh? These boys? Devotee (4): Oh, yes, very much. Prabhupāda: Do you like it? Boy (1): Yes, sir. Prabhupāda: You? Young Boy (2): Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee: Not only the small boys. Some of the bigger boys, they also like. Prabhupāda: No, it is very nice. They'll live. Mahāṁśa: They surveyed this whole hundred acres around here, and they said anywhere in this hundred acres, you'll get water. You can dig and you'll get water. This hundred acres has good underground water supply. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mahāṁśa: And the land is very good, this soil here, this black soil, very good for cotton. It is called black cotton soil. Prabhupāda: So you grow. Cotton requires water? Mahāṁśa: It requires water. We have to have at least... Prabhupāda: Paddy and... Devotee (4): Not as much as paddy. Mahāṁśa: Not as much as paddy. And sugar cane can grow very well on this also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately grow sugar cane. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because the upper portion of the sugar cane will be fodder for the cows. [break] Devotee: ...take great care in what they feed their cows. Even though the grasses may be good they grow alfalfa. They make a special feed for them. Prabhupāda: Hm, they take care because they want to eat. Mahāṁśa: So the whole taking care is for their own stomach. Prabhupāda: Yes, for cutting the throat, that's all. There is a Bengali word, toma ya bhalo asa mussulmanera muragī pusa:(?) "Your love is like tending the roast by the Mohammedans." What is called? Roast? They keep... Haṁsadūta: "Like a Mohammedan loves his chicken." Prabhupāda: Yes. So long it is taken very much care, and then, when it is fatty, cut throat. In this material world the love is like that, for one's own interest, not for the lover's interest. Hari-śauri: Not love, lust. Prabhupāda: Hm, yes, it is lust. Devotee (5): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are many of these great trees but the government takes it over. They take dead grass and make liquor out of that. No one is allowed to cut them. Mahāṁśa: We can get permission. Prabhupāda: No, we can use for our own purpose. Devotee (5): Can we drink date rasa? We are allowed to drink date rasa? Prabhupāda: Date rasa? Oh, yes. Why not? Very good. Mahāṁśa: This thing? Prabhupāda: Date rasa. That is good. Mahāṁśa: Nīra.(?) This is not date like Māyāpura. This is a different kind of tree. They make toddy out of this. Prabhupāda: No, that date rasa, if you keep, it becomes toddy. Mahāṁśa: So early morning that is... Prabhupāda: Very good. Mahāṁśa: ...good to take. [break] Hare Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. So we can do it tomorrow. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Kirtana. Prabhupāda: Devotee (7): Fifteen rupees. Prabhupāda: Fifteen rupees? Mahāṁśa: Kilo or whole? Devotee (7): Whole thing. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Devotee (7): Ten kgs. Ten kgs altogether. Prabhupāda: Ten kg. Devotee (7): Approximately he is selling ten kgs. Devotee: 1.50 a kilo. Mahāṁśa: It's high priced. *Prabhupāda: Higher... (Hindi conversation over price) Pañca*-rūpya, you can take? Devotee (7): I told him but he said "I will better go there and sell it." Prabhupāda: All right. Devotee (7): He will walk all the way there. Prabhupāda: That's all right. He can go. (Hindi) *Boy: Is the sun*-god an incarnation of Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Everyone is incarnation. You are also. Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. You have not read Bhagavad-gītā? Any living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Just like this child is the part and parcel of his father, you are part and parcel of your father. Similarly, every one of us, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. *Boy: Is the sun*-god an avatāra? Prabhupāda: Any god or dog, anyone is part and parcel. This is our land? No. Mahāṁśa: Yes. It goes all... That's a village. That... Those trees there is the village. Devotee: Those date trees are on our land? Mahāṁśa: You see the big trees? That is the border. Yes, all the way to the village our land goes. Prabhupāda: Man gone? Mahāṁśa: He went that side. Prabhupāda: What is the market price? Mahāṁśa: Of those vegetables? Prabhupāda: Ah. Mahāṁśa: To be about a rupee a kilo. Prabhupāda: So how many kilos it is? Mahāṁśa: He says there's ten kilos. Haṁsadūta: We should have bought it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: We should have bought because when we go we have to spend money for gas, five rupees. Devotee (4): Of course, paying a Hyderabad price. Devotee (7): He is going there. Prabhupāda: What is that? Mahāṁśa: You want him to come, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, if you offer him little more, if you pay... Mahāṁśa: Ten rupees less. Haṁsadūta: He said for ten rupees he will sell it. Prabhupāda: Not less than that? Hari-śauri: We might get it for seven or eight. We said five, he said ten. We used to get it for... Mahāṁśa: Now he'll come all the way here. Prabhupāda: He's going? Mahāṁśa: Is he coming? Devotee (7): He's coming. Devotee (4): Should we have a marketplace, Śrīla Prabhupāda, where they come to bring their produce? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (4): And they can exchange, barter. Farmer: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Six rupees? (Hindi) Eh? Devotee (8): He's saying thirteen rupees. Devotees: (laughter) Oh! Prabhupāda: Tell seven rupees. Hari-śauri: Seven. Tell him seven. (Hindi) He's going. Prabhupāda: Seven? Devotee (2): He agreed for ten rupees. Prabhupāda: So do you think we shall take? Devotee: Yes, so much petrol and... Prabhupāda: All right, ask him. Devotee (7): (Hindi) (laughter) Hari-śauri: When he gets here tell him eight. Mahāṁśa: Tell nine. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mahāṁśa: Charge him nine. Devotee: He must give the basket also. Prabhupāda: Yes. He has good basket. Give him ten rupees. Hari-śauri: With the basket give him ten. Indians: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: So how far our temple, it is? Hari-śauri: Just after the trees. Prabhupāda: Oh. All right. This brinjal and this jhiṅgā will make very nice vegetable. Simply I'll show you how to do it. You'll like it. Devotee (4): In the new Back to Godhead the devotees in Florida, they have got one farm and they are calling "New Naimiṣāraṇya." Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (4): They are calling, yes, "New Naimiṣāraṇya," and we are also calling "New Naimiṣāraṇya." Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee (4): It's all right? Devotee (3): We were planning to have our temple site located here at this corner of the land. Prabhupāda: Oh. That's nice. Flat land. This is flat land? Devotee (3): Yes. Mahāṁśa: We didn't want to put it this side because then people would come into the living area, so we put it right on the road, on this side, with a prasādam hall. Prabhupāda: Very good. [break] Devotee (4): ...some pottery made here. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (4): The devotees staying here, living here, they may make some pottery, set of potter's wheel, make clay pots. Prabhupāda: What? What you'll use, pots? Here pottery is very cheap. We are not for arts. We are simply bare necessities of life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (7): Tirupati, they have these Veṅkateśvarams, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and blowing on the loud speaker every day. One... You can hear for miles. So we can also do some Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra chanting? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: They do that in Māyāpura. Mahāṁśa: We can have a maṅgala-ārati in mikes. We can use a microphone for maṅgala-ārati. (end) *Room Conversation-*-December 7, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: There is no arrangement for producing vegetable? Mahāṁśa: We just finished one harvest, Prabhupāda, and now the second harvest is already in the ground. Prabhupāda: So what kind of harvest? You finish and then you have to wait six months for the second. Mahāṁśa: Now we are designing one plot for continuous... Prabhupāda: Hm, so this... Where is Tejas Mahārāja? So you immediately arrange for producing vegetables. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, I'm asking Tejas. Haṁsadūta: Here is Tejas, here. Prabhupāda: Oh, here he is. So, why don't you do that? Tejas: Yes. I'll make up the scheme today. It should be that you have continuous crop. You plant seeds one week... But again they have made the same mistake with these cauliflower and cabbage. Prabhupāda: Well, they mistake... You say, "They mistake." Who are "they"? You say you do mistake. Don't say, "they." This is bureaucracy, "they." You are all "they." Anyway, whatever is done, immediately make arrangement. And this is one thing. And the other thing, I came here that there will be festival and prasādam distribution. Why this is not begun? Mahāṁśa: Till yesterday there was being marriages in the city. Now, from today, the pandals are free. Prabhupāda: Because there are marriages our program will be cancelled? Mahāṁśa: No, but the person who gives us the pandal... It's supposed to start today, Prabhupāda, their program. They have been advertising in the villages about the prasādam distribution this evening, so the stage and the śāmiyānā will be coming today and the pots are coming today. So we have all the grains and everything. We can start the prasādam distribution this evening. Prabhupāda: So you'll keep, come in charge. So do this also immediately. And the next is that Bhogilal wants to come here. So bring him immediately. What is the difficulty of that house? Mahāṁśa: All the plastering inside is finished now. Prabhupāda: Everything, whatever is finished... Mahāṁśa: Painting has to be done. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mahāṁśa: The toilets are working, all the connections are finished, and only thing is the painting has to be done today. Prabhupāda: So painting also can be... Without painting, we can go there. What is the wrong problem? Mahāṁśa: It looks a little shabby. If we wait for one more day it will look much better. Prabhupāda: So one more day we shall wait, but tomorrow we must go there. Mahāṁśa: Yes, tomorrow we can go there. Prabhupāda: So arrange for bringing Bhogilal tomorrow. Mahāṁśa: Yes, tomorrow afternoon or evening we can arrange. Prabhupāda: No. Yes, so immediately arrange for that. He is very important man. If he comes you can all mature consultation about this female, about managing. He is practically doing. He has one thousand acres of land. Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes, it's not a joke. Prabhupāda: And he is practical business man. So immediately... And besides that, he is already sympathetic. He is becoming interested more. So he can do so many things for us. He is a very nice man. So he volunteered to come here. So bring him immediately. So arrange. From tomorrow we go there. If it is not finished, then he may be given that place. I am at here. I shall stay. Or he can be given this room; I can go there. In this way... Because the doors are not yet fitted. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that's the main problem. Prabhupāda: But there are so many main problems. So at least in my side the doors are fitted. So I can go there, and he can stay here. Anyway, either there or here, arrange to bring him immediately. He will go away by the twelfth. So he may stay here at least for one week. Mahāṁśa: One week. Prabhupāda: Tell him like that. Mahāṁśa: Yes. And the cooking will be done by his men. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Because if he comes his cook will also come. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. His cook and servant, yes. So make this arrangement so that everything should be inaugurated tomorrow, not more than that. So You have to purchase vegetable and then make a big, big scheme. Bambharambhe(?) laghu*-kriyā. Ārambha, very big, and action, very little. And ask some of our devotees to collect all the gobars and bring here. I want gobar. There so much gobars scattered here and there. Take one basket and two men may go and collect all of them, put it in the sunshine. So nowadays sunshine is so bright. You can have so many things exposed to sunshine. All vitamins. So you immediately make program for vegetable, fruits, flower, surrounding this, immediately. So how Bhogilal will be brought here? Mahāṁśa: In his car. Prabhupāda: In his car. So make arrangement. Either we both of us, we may stay there or one here, one there. Mahāṁśa: And the secretaries can stay here. Prabhupāda: Secretaries, as they are staying. I think one can manage that. There is no difficulty. [break] So all the devotees here, they are all required there? Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then why... So the temple work is not suffering? Mahāṁśa: It is. Prabhupāda: Then why you are keeping so many devotees here? Mahāṁśa: The main problem now is there were three pūjārīs, and one of them is here, and he doesn't want to go back to pūjārī work, so we have to find... Prabhupāda: Eh? Mahāṁśa: He doesn't want to go back to do pūjārī work, so there's only two pūjārīs and they were just complaining yesterday that it's very difficult to do so much Deity worship. Prabhupāda: So why? Why he does not want to go? Mahāṁśa: He wants to go traveling for a while. Prabhupāda: So that cannot be. So traveling means you have asked him to...? Haṁsadūta: No, I haven't asked him any... It's the same problem. Whenever I go somewhere there are always certain men; they want to go. Prabhupāda: No. Nobody can go without sanction. This is sense gratification, "I want to." This is not good. Jagadīśa: The temple right now is in lack of a full time manager. Mahāṁśa Mahārāja spends most of his time here, and I can see that the temple management is not going right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not very nice. So do you require...? But you also do not remain here. Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then you are not there; you are not here. Then where you are? Mahāṁśa: No, all these last, last two weeks I've been working on this house and if I'm not here then... Like yesterday I was not here, and the workers didn't work properly. Then I made them work in the night. When I came back, I saw that they have not... *Prabhupāda: So that means everywhere, if you are not there, then everything is gone to hell. Then what is this management? You cannot be everywhere. That is not... You are not Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānām [Bg. 18.61]. Mahāṁśa: I mean, the problem that came up in the temple, it was going on okay before, but then there was suddenly so many more devotees that came. Half of them were here, half of them were there, and they were moving around every day. So the temple managers were confused. They didn't know how much, how many devotees... Prabhupāda: No, temple... Who is temple manager? Mahāṁśa: Ānandamaya is managing now. He's very good. He can do it nicely but he was confused because there were devotees... Prabhupāda: Now there is no confusion. Immediately they can go, all the devotees. They are not required. What is the use? Jagadīśa: That temple is a big, big project. Ānandamaya is not competent to handle the whole thing. He doesn't have the respect of the other members, enough. And I don't see him taking charge anymore. If you ask him to get something done he says, "Well..." He always makes some excuse. This was my experience while we were there. Prabhupāda: Who is that man? Mahāṁśa: Ānandamaya. He has been here since four years, and he knows practically everybody in Hyderabad. He was working with me all the time. Prabhupāda: So then why does he not go there? Why he's here? Mahāṁśa: He's not here; he's there. Prabhupāda: Oh. So the devotees may go there. They have no business here to stay, so many. Why? They can return back. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Jagadīśa: They need a head, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jagadīśa: They need a head. Prabhupāda: A head means you have to train head. If you cut head, then how there will be head? Neither tail, neither head. Head means you have to train them, head. There is no need of so many men here. Why? Jagadīśa: Many of the men who are here are on Haṁsadūta's party. Prabhupāda: So do they require here? Haṁsadūta: I sent all the men here because Mahāṁśa promised that there would be a program lined up but there is no program. That's why they're just... Now they all want to go, and if they can go I can send them. They are ready to go. They don't want to stay. Prabhupāda: So? Mahāṁśa: The problem is that the programs I didn't arrange because the devotees were not regular in coming. I didn't know when they were all coming. So if I arrange a program that means my men... Prabhupāda: But therefore the meeting is here. Do here now. Mahāṁśa: Yes, now it can be done. But I couldn't do... Prabhupāda: So it can be done. Why can you...? What? When it will be done, do then. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Don't make future promise. You do it immediately. Make program. But settle up when it will begin, when it is right. Here work is going on. That Mṛtyu, he cannot... No? Mūrti. So he cannot manage without him? Mahāṁśa: He can. He has to be a little more acquainted with the people. He has to... Prabhupāda: He is here from the last June. He is not acquainted? Mahāṁśa: He's only here since about ten days. He's not here for a long time and he's not very forceful in making them do the work. Prabhupāda: So who will be forceful? Mahāṁśa: He can be trained. I'm training him. Prabhupāda: So that training... Everyone is under training; then who will be head? If in old age you have to be trained up, then when they will be trained up? So what is the..., to sit down silently? That's all? Mahāṁśa: We'll send the parties out... Prabhupāda: Make. Make immediately program, where to go. So why you are not making? Mahāṁśa: Now? Here? Prabhupāda: Yes, make program immediately. Write what to do. Mahāṁśa: I was thinking one bus should go immediately to Kathinagar because they want to have program there and they are ready to arrange it and we can collect some money immediately for the expenses which are going on now. Prabhupāda: So go. Go. Mahāṁśa: So if you want, we could get one bus and few devotees can go on that. Haṁsadūta: But where is this place? Mahāṁśa: Kathinagar. It's in Andhra Pradesh, Visakhapatnam near Waisac. Haṁsadūta: You have to make a program that on the way... Not that we drive one thousand miles to go to one program. That's not practical. Every fifty miles or so there should be some program. Mahāṁśa: That's what I mean. That whole course is... Andhra course is the richest area in Andhra Pradesh. Haṁsadūta: Yes, like that. Mahāṁśa: They give very nicely. We have had programs there, Prabhupāda, since three years. We've collected lakhs of rupees from there and thousands of books have been distributed there. Prabhupāda: This I have heard even. Mahāṁśa: You have heard, yeah. Prabhupāda: So go there. What is the...? Make this. Mahāṁśa: They can start today? The boys are ready. They want to move but it's just the leaders which have not decided on getting it done. Prabhupāda: So decide now. What is difficulty? *Mahāṁśa: If you can give one bus they can go immediately. And another party can go to Nagpur and start arranging for the program there on the 25th. They can do nagara*-kīrtanas, book distribution, and arrange for the program on the 25th and one bus can go to Kakinagar. So all the boys will be out and be engaged. And the boys from Hyderabad should go back to Hyderabad and get into the program there. There's so much work to be done in Hyderabad. They're suffering a lot. Jagadīśa: What about the program here? Mahāṁśa: The program here doesn't need too many people. Only five, six people is enough. Haṁsadūta: (aside:) Close the door. Mahāṁśa: Because the program here is just needing supervision. Jagadīśa: No, but I mean kīrtana, constant kīrtana, and prasādam. Mahāṁśa: Well, if you want constant kīrtana, then we have to have more devotees here. Prabhupāda: Constant kīrtana? Who says constant? Jagadīśa: Well, we have to engage the villagers. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they'll come in the evening. We cannot be always... Haṁsadūta: Why not? *German Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we want to go nagara*-saṅkīrtana to the villages and announce the program. Prabhupāda: Go. Well, go. German Devotee: But we cannot go because Candrodaya, he doesn't want to go. *Mahāṁśa: Take Rāma*-kṣetra. He knows. German Devotee: Take as much as possible devotees? Haṁsadūta: Yes. German Devotee: OK. Prabhupāda: So write what you are going to do immediately. Write. Write the names, who is going where. Mahāṁśa: (indistinct) ...they will leave? Haṁsadūta: I just wrote down all the leaders. Ātmavidyā, Puṇyaśloka, Rājasāra. Otherwise I can go anywhere without fixing a program. I can go to any city. If no one is going to fix the program, I can go anywhere. That I was doing already. I came here because you promised me that in every city you know people, you can fix program. So fix them and then we'll go there. Otherwise there is no need to send anyone. We'll just go there and stay in a dharmaśālā. Prabhupāda: So why not go, one or two men, to fix up program? Haṁsadūta: In Nagpur, a city like Nagpur, you say you have members. Send some man who knows them from your temple. He makes some arrangement. We go there, make a nice program. Mahāṁśa: Okay. Prabhupāda: So who is going Nagpur? Write that. Mahāṁśa: Vāsughoṣa and who from yours? Haṁsadūta: I'll see later who goes. Anyone can go with him if he knows what to do. Mahāṁśa: Someone who can speak Hindi. Prabhupāda: You cannot expect from his party anyone speaking Hindi. Mahāṁśa: He has many... He has a good Rajasthani boy who is very good with Vāsughoṣa. He's in Hyderabad now. Haṁsadūta: Who is that? Mahāṁśa: Vāsanta Kṛṣṇa, or somebody. They can take a van? Haṁsadūta: No need of van. Mahāṁśa: Well, if they're going to have to arrange a program in eight days, they have to run around to see so many people, get leaflets printed, get banners painted, see municipal people, see police people. Prabhupāda: For that reason van is required? Haṁsadūta: No, he can do everything by... Mahāṁśa: They have extra vans here. Haṁsadūta: It's not practical. I tell you, these vans... It's not practical to take these vans and drive them around the cities. It's very dangerous. It's not practical. It's easier to go by rickshaw. Mahāṁśa: What about a small one? Haṁsadūta: Yes, the small ones. I mean, it's easier to go by rickshaw. It's a fact, you know. We had this experience... Prabhupāda: No, there is local bus. For one, two men van running is not good. Mahāṁśa: So one bus party goes immediately to Kakinagar with maybe Ātmavidyā or whoever... Haṁsadūta: Ātmavidyā. Mahāṁśa: Ātmavidyā can lead that party. And one party goes to Nagpur as soon as that is fixed. And to fix that program, Vāsughoṣa and Vāsanta Kṛṣṇa can go there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Then Hyderabad temple, devotees should return to their services in Hyderabad, and Godruma should return to Deity worship. A crew of eight devotees will stay here to do the program over here. Prabhupāda: Hm. And Haṁsadūta will stay here. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. And you begin your digging. Tejas: Mahārāja, you should tell the other persons who I'll have to work with that whatever I suggest, that they should do like that. Prabhupāda: But you take our ordinary laborer. Tejas: But they should know. Otherwise if I come they may object, "Mahāṁśa Swami has to tell me." Just like I told this Yuthāgraja something. He said, "I have to ask Mahāṁśa Swami." I told Mūrti something. He said, "Only if Mahāṁśa Swami says, then I can do." Mahāṁśa: No, no. Tejas: No, but you should make it clear when we have a meeting. Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. We'll have a meeting with all the people on the farm. Tejas: You don't have to... Then I'll see that you have vegetables. Prabhupāda: And these village men or any laborer, as you proposed, if they want, they can stay. We shall give him food, shelter, as well as some remuneration. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Like that many people... Tejas: We bring a few. I can talk to them Telegu, and I explain and see who likes. We can give them some... Prabhupāda: There is a... He will be in charge of growing this, and this way do everything. And you go to Bhogilal or call. Bring him here and I'll transfer there. I have no objection. Immediately. There is no need of painting. Mahāṁśa: No need of painting. Prabhupāda: No. Why there is use? We can manage there. Bhogilal may come, and he may be given here or wherever possible. Mahāṁśa: I'll ask the carpenter to try and fix those doors by this evening in Bhogilal Patel's room. The inside doors are already finished. Only those curved doors take time. So I'll... Prabhupāda: So you have made, cut fashion? Mahāṁśa: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Fashionable? Mahāṁśa: Yes, it looks a little nice. Prabhupāda: All right. So that room, if it is done, it is all right. If not, this room and that room. That's all. Better bring him. He'll be very useful. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Purchase one canopy instead of renting. We shall have to continue this program. Mahāṁśa: Right now it will be difficult to purchase because we don't have enough money. Prabhupāda: What is the money? How much? Mahāṁśa: We don't have enough money. It will cost at least a thousand rupees or more, the whole thing, at least a thousand, maybe more. We don't have so much money right now. Prabhupāda: So I'll pay you thousand. But... You pay me the rent, I'll pay you thousand. Yes. What is the rent per day? Mahāṁśa: I'll get it free, without rent. Prabhupāda: Then don't purchase. Mahāṁśa: That member, he has a store. He gives... Prabhupāda: So then what is the use of purchase? If you get free, no need of purchasing. So make this arrangement immediately. Then go and we shall go out. Is it clear? No. Not? Mahāṁśa: Yes, it's light. Prabhupāda: I shall wash my teeth and go. Tejas: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Preparation for Gétä Pratiñöhäna-*-December 9, 1976, Hyderabad *Prabhupāda: Similarly, whenever there is scarcity of supply or scarcity of food, it is not due to overpopulation. It is due to overcriminality or over*-sinful activities, due to over-sinful activities, not overpopulation. It is a bogus theory. That is stated, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān [Bg. 16.19]. Those who are devils, who are demons... Jagadīśa: What was that verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Tān aham. Jagadīśa: Tān. Prabhupāda: For the demons. Demons and godless people must be (indistinct), you cannot make a solution. You cannot surpass the law of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. There is enough water in the ocean, but still you are suffering for scarcity of water. Why? What is the answer? Jagadīśa: They are answering rains. (?) *Prabhupāda: What their answer, these rascals? Just like in Europe there is scarcity of water, they proposed to import, rascal. But there are so many oceans. So where is the scarcity of water? But why you cannot use it? Unless there is intervention by the nature's law you cannot do it. Therefore you are completely under the laws of nature. Nature will punish you, nature will reward you, according to your acts. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27], ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā. You are falsely thinking that you are independent. A slight deviation from the laws of nature will put you into difficulty. Immediately there are... You can close this door. [break] ...population. In any case, one can be punished when the nature's supply is restricted. [break] Jagadīśa: Third Chapter. *Prabhupāda: So in order to release ourself from the sinful reaction of sinful activity, we must perform yajña. And in this age the easiest process of yajña is saṅkīrtana*-yajña. (long pause) So what are the problem? Jagadīśa: Under "problems" are... There are some general problems such as taxes. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jagadīśa: Taxes. Taxation. Prabhupāda: Hm, taxation. So that is... You have created problem. When you transgress the laws of nature, this, there is shortage of supply. And the government, on this plea they will tax to mitigate your miseries. Actually they will not be able to mitigate your miseries, but on the plea of your miseries they will levy taxes and divide amongst themselves. So this is another way of punishment because the government is your government. Because you are rascal, so you elect some, another rascal. And they invent ways of rascaldom to mitigate your miseries. To avoid taxation means you become good man and you select your ruler, good men. Then there will be no taxation. (long pause) Jagadīśa: Other problems? Prabhupāda: Hm? Jagadīśa: Other problems? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: Race relations. Prabhupāda: Race relations? That is also ignorance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa is original father. Where is the question of race? You are all brothers. (long pause) So all problems solved? Jagadīśa: As far as I'm concerned. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jagadīśa: I can't think of any more major problems. I remember... Prabhupāda: Problem... As long as you have got this material body you'll have problem. Jagadīśa: One after another. Prabhupāda: Therefore the best solution is to go back home, back to Godhead. Jagadīśa: We have to convince them that they have problems because they think that they're enjoying. Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Therefore they require education. Jagadīśa: They don't know the real standard of enjoyment. Prabhupāda: How they can know? There is no understanding. Mūḍha. (pause) To solve all these problems, therefore, there must be a class of men, brāhmaṇas. Not a class, a section of people must become brāhmaṇas. And all other sections should consult them and live as kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, śūdras. Then? It is finished now? No. Jagadīśa: Well, we've solved all the problems. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jagadīśa: We've solved all the problems. Now we want to convince this Vinoda Bhave to support us? Prabhupāda: Yes. So can you see what is the position, my quarters? Hari-śauri: Well, Mūrti said your side is fit for moving into. But if they have... See, Bhogilal Patel is not here yet, so I thought if we wait at least till tomorrow, if you want, then that will give them the chance to get a few more doors on, and then, if Bhogilal comes tomorrow, then we can move in the morning. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: See, they have all the wood now for the doors, and they need one more day and then all the doors will be fitted in the whole house. Prabhupāda: So do that tomorrow. Hari-śauri: And that will be a lot safer too. Security reasons, it will be a lot better. Prabhupāda: Tomorrow morning we can go. That's all right. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: [break] ...śuddhyed sattva, purify your existence. (end) *Room Conversationon Farm Management-*-December 10, 1976, Hyderabad *Prabhupāda: Make very nice palatable prasādam. We shall spend for that. Why miserly? There is no need of miserly. You are going to earn money by agricultural produce, so how the money will be utilized? It will be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. By prasādam, by chanting, by drama, somehow or other bring them. That is our mission. Congregational chanting. Always festival, and we shall spend for that. Immediately arrange. If there is scarcity of money, I shall pay, but from... Bring them somehow or other. Tomorrow I want to see at least 500 men. Make arrangement like that. I came here to see that, not to sit down in a room peacefully. So there also we shall inform the meeting that we want to propagate this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement town to town, village to village, by attracting them with musical demonstration of saṅkīrtana, dramatic play, movie, prasādam. Somehow or other they should come to the temple, to the pandal and congregationally chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra, hear Bhagavad-gītā, Bhāgavatam. For this purpose, whatever expenditure is required, that you should collect and spend. This is the scheme of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. You must come here, question, understand, and vigorous propaganda should be inaugurated town to town, village to village. Those who are educated, to them distribution of literature. The school, college, library, institution, university, by scholarly presentation. That is wanted. What is that? Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh, it doesn't matter. Understand the idea? Jagadīśa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: To attract them to really nice prasādam, palatable food, we shall spend. And we shall argue (?) also by literature produced, and they're learning. Where is the difficulty? We shall take contribution from rich persons. We shall earn ourself, and spend it, to give them very nice prasādam. Gradually when they come, when you engage them in producing their own food, own shelter, own cloth... This should be organized. And they'll be glad. As soon as they understand, they will be glad to do. And they will stop all this nonsense: illicit sex, and meat eating. Then their life will be purified. And they'll make more and more advancement in this path. That is perfection. That you want. Is it clear or not? Jagadīśa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes? This is our mission. If you give them very nice palatable prasādam... They go to hotel from miles together to take some palatable foodstuff, restaurant, hotel. And we cannot give nice Kṛṣṇa prasādam? Why? Why you cannot give? Arrange like that, first class. Simply for eating they will come. Immediately do it. Jagadīśa: I have a question, whether we should always give them khicuṛi or whether we should... *Prabhupāda: Give them nice prasādam by which they are attracted. It doesn't matter khicuṛi, puri, kacuri, lāḍu. Whatever they are attracted, we must give. Whatever that will attract them. That I want. Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. Don't waste, give them nice palatable foodstuff. Give them one finest kacuri, one nice samosā, two puris, they will be very glad. Make very, very, nice prasādam. What is this rubbish, the dog cannot eat even? They have done a great mistake, all rascals. I am very angry. I say that if you have got no money, I'll spend, I will give you money. Why should you make such tenth class, and no food at all. It is to be thrown away. Simply waste of grains and energy. Engage nice professional cook, prepare nice foodstuff. I shall spend for that if you have no money. Gentlemen who are coming immediately should be offered some prasādam. "Please come here, take: puri, kacuri, samosā." Arrangement should be like that. The doctors came, he comes out of love, but there is no prasādam. Huh? What is this? The doctor comes, but we couldn't supply him prasādam at 12 o'clock. Jagadīśa: Today? Prabhupāda: Not today, the other day. Jagadīśa: Oh. Prabhupāda: Prasāda is not yet ready, you also said. After eating I have no, not yet ready. What is this? At 2 o'clock? As soon as they want. The Vṛndāvana also, the same thing I told that what they are doing? Prasādam, as soon as they want, they'll must feed some prasādam according to the position of the person. We shall spend for that. I am not hesitating to spend money, why the arrangement is lacking? Immediately arrange for theirs and invite them. Don't make it childish. Where are the leaders, they are now engaged there? Jagadīśa: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: Our leaders are engaged there? Jagadīśa: At the kīrtana? Prabhupāda: Huh. Jagadīśa: Mahāṁśa is there. I don't know where Haṁsadūta is. Prabhupāda: So anyway, this is my instruction. We have to written and discuss and go. And I want to see tomorrow many thousand people. If you cannot make attractive, why they will come? Then it is failure. Make attractive. Whatever money is required, I shall pay. Simply theory will not help. Make such prasādam as people will come and be mad after it. Jagadīśa: Yes, we can... Prabhupāda: Just explain. You have taken in writing? Jagadīśa: It's on tape. Prabhupāda: So go and discuss. They must be attracted. Jagadīśa: I see. Prabhupāda: Otherwise it is failure. [break] Mahāṁśa: ...who came, but... Prabhupāda: You are satisfied? Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Mahāṁśa: No. The people also, there was no advertisement that today there would be a program. Prabhupāda: So whatever it is required, you do it. Mahāṁśa: So on tomorrow, I will do the advertisement and show them... Prabhupāda: Give them very, very first class prasādam. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They will come for the tongue. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Today the dallers (?), they liked it very spicy. Prabhupāda: That they like, I do not know what they like. But you prepare they should come and eat. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I do not know what they like. Mahāṁśa: There is a lot of sabji in the ḍāl also, today and it's hot. They like it. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, whatever they like, the villagers, you prepare. If you have no money, I shall pay money. Mahāṁśa: O.K. Prabhupāda: But attract them. They will come here to eat, "Oh, very nice thing." That is wanted. I made this movement successful simply by love feast. They did not come to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. They came for love feast. From very beginning, when I was in 26 2nd Avenue, every Sunday I was giving nice foodstuff, at least 200 men. Daily at least more than 15, 20. I was cooking myself. That is the beginning of my movement. The cāpāṭis with Kīrtanānanda, first of all he was taking one and two, then twelve. (laughter) There was another boy... Devotee: Stryādhīśa. *Prabhupāda: Stryādhīśa. Twenty*-two cāpāṭis. (laughter) "Stryādhīśa, can I give you?" "Yes." I gave him four. Finished. "Stryādhīśa, can I give you?" "Yes." (laughter) Very nice boy. He was eating twenty-two. One day there was no money, so he immediately went and came after some time with some money. "And where did you go?" The shoe booth. He polished shoes and brought some money. (laughter) In this way, this was developed. Give them prasādam, nice prasādam. Any gentleman comes, immediately there must be some prasādam. Engage first class cook. Spend money, don't be a miserly. If you have no money, I will pay. So long I am living, I shall go on paying. You don't be miserly. Bring devotees for eating, and then chanting, then cinema, then lecture, in this way you have to develop. Not that people will come, "Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is there, let us go there." They will not come. What do they know about Hare Kṛṣṇa? They will come, "Oh, there is nice, good prasādam distributed." Mahāṁśa: Some people I know, they said that yesterday the prasādam was not nice, and there was... Prabhupāda: Not nice, it is not eatable even by the dogs. But you are less than the dogs if you (prepare) such thing. I was surprised. You allowed a sweeper to cook. I was surprised. We have distribution prasādam, not dog's food. Such rascals as here. You do not know. I do not wish to discuss anymore on this point. You have murdered the whole thing in two days. Now if possible, bring them, bring them first class prasādam, very palatable. Foodstuff means even one has no appetite he'll eat. That is food. Not that even one has got appetite, he'll forget. That is not food. So do like that and for money produce, use cane, sugar cane, rice. We shall spend for that. Don't spoil money, but do like businessman. He invests money, he gets a return. Spend it for Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. There is no question of becoming a miser. I never did it. When I have got that farthing, I want to spend it. Immediately spend. Oh, what I have made this BBT? Immediately 50% for printing, and 50% for spreading this. (indistinct) and understand what I want to do. So whatever is done is done, now do it very nicely. I want to see at least 1,000 men coming from the villages. There are 20,000 men here, you cannot attract them? Mahāṁśa: Do we announce that you will give darśana on the stage for five minutes? Prabhupāda: Huh? Mahāṁśa: Can we announce...? Prabhupāda: Nobody will come for my darśana, but if you want I'll go. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult task. Mahāṁśa: Because they are all very anxious to see you, because the... Prabhupāda: All right, I shall go. What is that? The difficulty is I would gone very gladly, but they do not understand my language, neither Hindi, nor English. Mahāṁśa: It can be translated in Telugu. Prabhupāda: Then I am shall go. I shall go. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I shall go. I shall speak. Give them very nice food. From tomorrow I will... If there are rascals, you'll bring. I will pay nice cook. Make varieties, very palatable food. Kichranna,(?) puṣpānna, rice, there are so many preparations. Paramānna. You do not make paramānna, kichranna,(?) puṣpānna. There are varieties of rice preparation. They know, the southern people, with curd, yogurt... Mahāṁśa: Tamarind. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamarind, so many preparations. So make like that. Why dog eating? They are not dogs. You cannot expect, because you are giving some dog eatable food, they will come. There must be one first class cook, and all our men should learn. There's no need of simply keeping unduly: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, and sleeping. We don't want such men. Make a show. And do not know anything how to preach. Useless. The householder, the women should be engaged in cooking. Their children should be gathered together. One man... I have said many times, all the children should be taken in a room by one woman, and others should be engaged in the cooking department. I have seen it. Your country, America. When they go to church, all the childrens are gathered together in a room. Is it not? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: And one or two men take care. And others, they go. Similarly, children they must have, so... Not that everyone is children busy, "I cannot do." They cannot do if they are busy with children. What is the use of keeping such householders? Let them live outside, earn their money. Women business is to cleanse, to cut the vegetables, to cook, what is this? They're simply busy with the children? And they have started their mission for maintaining some children, and useless women. You should organize. Rādhikāra pakka anna vividha byañjana. All the gopīs, they are engaged for cooking for Kṛṣṇa. Mother Yaśodā will call them, "You young girls, you can cook very nicely." Mahāṁśa: No. Prabhupāda: Rādhikā with Her friends, they are cooking. And they cook so nicely that parama ānande kṛṣṇa korena bhojana. With great pleasure Kṛṣṇa is eating. And that we have to distribute. Not dog's food. You do not know what is the purpose of this mission. No need. Here is a good chance, don't spoil it. Produce food. Make profit, you spend for Kṛṣṇa. Train all devotees how to cook. All women. Don't distribute dog's eatable things. Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Mahāṁśa: Which tank? Prabhupāda: That big tank. Well, big well. Devotee (1): Just here. The one that's been pumped empty. Anyway the big empty... Prabhupāda: But you were surprised. You do not know that we have got a big well here. Mahāṁśa: The one that we drink water from? Hari-śauri: The big square one. Devotee: Behind the house. Prabhupāda: Why it is empty? Hm? Mahāṁśa: Fill it for what, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Why the well is empty? There is no water. He's surprised. As if dropping from the sky. You do not know that well? Mahāṁśa: It's just a tank. Prabhupāda: Tank, yes. Why it is empty? Mahāṁśa: Because I didn't know what purpose it will serve by filling it. Prabhupāda: Filling it, we shall pump and distribute water. You shall fit pipes. And pump water and distribute to the field, so there will be no scarcity of water, and produce. What it was meant, you do not know? Mahāṁśa: No, right now, that field does not need water to... Prabhupāda: Then why you are not growing there something? Mahāṁśa: The paddy is drying over there, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, no, there are so many other fields. Why they are empty? Mahāṁśa: Oh, we have to go and do boring wells and... Prabhupāda: Therefore that means water supply. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that's what I have to arrange now. Prabhupāda: Ha. So why, when you will arrange? Arrange it immediately. Mahāṁśa: Yes, before... Prabhupāda: And that is also one of the water pool to solve water problem. The tank. Do you follow what I say? Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You fill up the tank and by pumping through pipe, you distribute water. Jagadīśa: The viaducts are already there. Mahāṁśa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: If you have got water filled up in that tank, we can water so many lands. We shall spend for that. We shall... Pipe line, pumping. Here is so much land we can produce gur (?). But you have no brain. Produce gur, get money and spend it for Kṛṣṇa. This is wanted. Not simply planning and talking. The world is suffering for want of right planning. Otherwise, there is no question of suffering. Pūrṇam idam, complete it is, everything complete. That is the Vedic verse. Why (indistinct) ...incomplete means he's rascals. That supply [break] and still all right. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. Kṛṣṇa does not want to see that we are starving for want of food. That He does not want to see. But because you have come to the material world, you have to work hard. Then you'll get your food. That is the material world. Śarīra*-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ, Kṛṣṇa says. Very... If you do not work, then you cannot get food. Simply work together. Sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. And you get from the land. You have got land. You get anything from the land. The land must be moist. Then you get everything. That we want to show. Hm, what do you say? Land is... Mahāṁśa: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: Eh? You are intelligent, you... Eh? Mahāṁśa: You are the intelligent man, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Now, what do you think this idea? Harikeśa: No, it's wonderful. Prabhupāda: Yes, do that. *Harikeśa: In Vṛndāvana I saw a water*-bull, just goes around in the circle all day and makes the water come up on these little catchers. And then it goes... Prabhupāda: Yes, so many means there are watering. Harikeśa: The whole field. Prabhupāda: Yes. People have lost the program. These rascals they draw all these men to manufacture Goodyear tire and eat store (?). This is going on. Modern man, they draw all these man, "Come on, I shall pay you 20 rupees daily. Prepare Goodyear tire, and eat store. Take paper. Purchase store. That's all. This is going on. What brain they will have? Twenty rupees they get and they spend ten rupees for wine, and five rupees for cigarette, and fooding, say five rupees. No ghee, no milk. Soul killing civilization. And again this soul killing civilization. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Hm, what you wanted to say? Devotee: This, your Dr. Ghosh, where he is staying... Prabhupāda: Mm. Devotee: We were there this afternoon for a program, and all their land is so green, and they are growing vegetables by a patch no bigger than this mattress that you are sitting. They are working one, planting, then growing another. Just a small piece, they're planting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: They have some way for the water to go to... Prabhupāda: You should do like that here, in our land. Do like that. If they can do here, some few miles away... Harikeśa: We can do. Prabhupāda: ...you can do it. Do it immediately. See how they are doing. So much land, why it should remain vacant? So combinedly immediately begin. Mm. So how long you are staying here? Harikeśa: Till Sunday morning. Prabhupāda: Oh. So your business is complete or... Harikeśa: No, almost. Prabhupāda: So, give him all help. Harikeśa: Yes, people are... Prabhupāda: He is doing very nice there, and he'll do very nice. Haṁsadūta: One thing I thought it would be good if your divine grace would write a letter making him the GBC, so that he can act with full authority. Prabhupāda: I'll give full authority. Write letter I shall sign. Yes. You have full authority. Write letter, I'll sign. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Harikeśa: By your talking, I'm also thinking we should have a farm in Germany, I know... *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, why not? Everywhere. I myself when I go to the farm, I forget whether it is India, or Germany, or France. I forget. The land is there. Sarva*-kāma-dughā. We get everything from that. I have several times said that why they make this distinction? This is France, this is India, this is... Everywhere is God's land. Why these rascals make division, I do not understand. Every land belongs to Kṛṣṇa, and you are sons of Kṛṣṇa. Let us live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. All rascals, mūḍha. There is rain now and then fall in Europe? Harikeśa: Yes, now it's very much. Haṁsadūta: Now it's too late. Prabhupāda: Hm? Haṁsadūta: Now it's too late. Harikeśa: I mean, it wasn't there, but now it's so much. Prabhupāda: Hm. But God is giving hint that if, "Rascal, it is in My hand. I can keep you in starvation to death." The man is dull brain. Anyway, I am anxious to learn, why so many people are suffering? They have become all gray. Throughout whole France I saw. From Paris to Valencay I went. Gray. These people are not lazy, but there was no water. They utilize every inch land for agricultural purpose. At least I saw in France. Then maybe everywhere in Europe. They are not lazy fellow. There is organization, government organization here. People, they... Anyway let us show some example. Immediately make program. You have seen, yes? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: And you are expert. Do it immediately. If there is requires some money, we shall pay. Fill up. What is the difficulty in filling up this tank? Mahāṁśa: I'm not still understanding which tank you are... Because there are many tanks... *Devotees: (indistinct*-all speak at once) Harikeśa: ...it's empty. Mahāṁśa: No one ever swim in here. We took out water to water the fields. Prabhupāda: So why it is empty? Have it filled up. Mahāṁśa: How to fill? It has to come by itself. The water comes from the recuperation from the soil, so it is not in our hands to fill it. It just comes by itself slowly. It takes six days. If we empty the well it takes takes 6 days to fill it. Prabhupāda: No, no. By the... By digging a well or something you cannot... Mahāṁśa: If we do a boring, then that's, the well can be filled. We have a pump and we can fill it. But now as it is, it's fifty feet deep. Prabhupāda: Why not make boring? Mahāṁśa: That is my plan, that is what I was telling... Prabhupāda: Why plan, why do it now? Mahāṁśa: Yes. now... Prabhupāda: Keep it always filled up. Harikeśa: He's saying he has the money. Mahāṁśa: Yes, I was thinking before you go, we should get the rigs coming here and putting on the whole... Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): Tomorrow we should go. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Devotee (3): It's the first business. We should go to that place and have him come, start the pool. Prabhupāda: Water required. Fill up with water and distribute water and produce. Huge quantity. Whatever can be produced. Sugar cane, rice, these are very valuable commodity at the present moment. Produce. And sugar cane means the upper portion will be the food for the cow. Mahāṁśa: Even rice. Prabhupāda: Even... Oh, yes. Very, very practic... We want some (indistinct) food. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. Bhūtāni means both animal and men. Animals should be well fed. Not only human being, but animal also. Otherwise, how he'll work? Don't use tractor, use this bulls. Otherwise there will be a problem, how to engage the bulls. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Engage them for transport, for plowing. Mahāṁśa: We should not get a tractor? Prabhupāda: No. When you have got bulls, why should you get...? Mahāṁśa: We have only 8 pairs of bulls. Prabhupāda: Yes, and other bulls have been eaten up. Now we stop that eating. Now if you need, you can purchase tractor. But as far as possible try to avoid, and engage the bulls. Otherwise, it will be problems. The Europeans have invented tractors, and the bull is a problem. Therefore they must be sent to the slaughterhouse. So we can not create that problem. How the bull should be utilized? They should be used for transport, and plowing. What is this turmoil? Devotee: I think they are distributing prasādam. *Mahāṁśa: Now, they have finished the slide*-show and they are sitting down for prasādam. Prabhupāda: All right. Go and see it is done. Announce that "Tomorrow we shall prepare such and such nice preparations. Please you are especially invited." In this way attract. (end) *Room Conversation-*-December 12, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: So explain the situation to them. Mahāṁśa: What happened a couple of times before over here was that some devotees became very passionate, mistreated a few village people here, these laborers. At that time many of the village people, from the villages, they came and they were protesting and they made a big scene about it. One of them was Caraṇāravinda, who created a very... Prabhupāda: No, Caraṇāravinda is eccentric. Devotee: Too much. Mahāṁśa: And then there was Advaitācārya also. So there was very delicate situation because these people... It may be a very little thing, you know, little thing, which does not need much propaganda or anything like that, but the village people made it very big and all the village people came... Prabhupāda: Naturally they do that. Mahāṁśa: They do that. They start... Because they have no other engagement. A little thing to excite them, then they want to become excited. Prabhupāda: In Bengal it is called tilake tāla. Tāla, a palm fruit, it is big, and tila, is the sesame. You know sesame seeds? Haṁsadūta: Sesame. Prabhupāda: Sesame, yes. That is very small. So these seeds, sesame seed, is called tila. Tila lava, and they make it tāla. Instead of tila, it becomes tāla, and then big mess. Tilake tāla. The fact was tila, but they called it tāla. Mahāṁśa: So that was happening. Then the other thing is that these people, they are very innocent people and they are very superstitious also. So when they see foreigners, they immediately become a little afraid. And there is some kind of a complex that comes on them and it makes it very difficult for the foreigners to communicate with these people. This is what I have seen happening. It is very difficult to commu... Now this is what I have experienced since last two, three days also. When Tejas was trying to get this garden around here done, but the laborers could not get the message across. They were doing something else and then the blame was coming on me. I never instructed them at all for doing anything. I never took them away from the work at all. I was amazed and I was surprised to hear that I was accused of taking away the laborers from Tejas and put them on some other work which I had no concern at all. So this is what was troubling me today when I was thinking that "How is it that there was this misunderstanding which has caused anxiety in so many devotees?" So this communication gap is going to be a problem which has to be solved. And for that... Prabhupāda: Oh, this is the explanation of the situation? You...? Haṁsadūta: You experienced. Prabhupāda: Yes. So how to adjust these things now? Do it. Mahāṁśa: What I would suggest, Prabhupāda, is that I could stay here, and whatever work we have to do, we sit together in the morning or in the night and we decide, "Tomorrow we have to do so much. We need so much labor for vegetables. We need so much labor for this, this." We make up a whole schedule of work for the next day. And in the morning laborers come and Tejas, who has experience in agriculture, he can show how this has to be done, how that... Prabhupāda: And he can speak Telegu also. Mahāṁśa: Yes. And I can be there to see that there is proper communication. And then after ten o'clock, because laborers start work early morning, so at ten o'clock, then I can go to Hyderabad and do official work for the day, see the government people and things like that. Prabhupāda: So what do you think? Eh? Haṁsadūta: That's good. Prabhupāda: That is all right? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Do it like that. Tejas: We should meet not late in the evening. In the afternoon so that the... If we need more laborers, they have to be informed previously. We can't inform them in the morning. We have to inform them the previous day. In the evening someone has to go to their village or whatever and tell them how many people we need because each day is going to be a little different. As soon as we get the water, we're going to need many, many laborers. *Mahāṁśa: Yes. That's how it would be, if we could get permanent laborers. That's another thing I experienced, that when these village laborers come, they come at nine o'clock, nine*-thirty, they work at their own speed and then, at five-thirty, they see the sun. I was amazed how they find the exact time but they do it by the sun's movements. Exactly at five-thirty they will stop their work and go. But I have seen our laborers who stay here on our land, they work from five-thirty in the morning and they work all day, all the way to the night. Tejas: There are some people here from the local village. They are working also nicely. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Tejas: I think that Ānandamaya, he is... Prabhupāda: So this is good idea. In the evening you sit together, make program and execute it. Tejas: In the morning. Prabhupāda: That's all. Haṁsadūta: There's one more point that Tejas made. That's about the outside workers, he was saying, from Kerala. Tejas: We should also be careful because, about enmity also. Because I've lived in the villagers' houses for two years and I've seen in different cases where if an outsider is there, these Kerala people, they are also considered outsiders, these villagers, they regard them as being different. So they are actually even getting more requisites than the local people. We should try and encourage the local people in working. They may not in the beginning work so hard, but we should encourage them that this is their project. Mahāṁśa: Local people will always be working because we will never have a staff to be enough for all our work. Like, we may have twenty, thirty families staying here, and I have seen that the people who are staying in these villages, they will not come and stay over here because they are staying just around here. They have their own house. They will come and work here, they will participate and everything but they won't come and stay here. They have their houses outside here. But the people from different villages, a little away, who have no home, who are helpless, they will come and stay and they will be very loyal. If we give them food and we give them clothing they will be very loyal to us. They will become like our full supporters. Prabhupāda: Hm. Naturally. Naturally. Mahāṁśa: There is two men here who are like that because they have no home. They were staying on the street and they were working on the construction. So I said, "Come here." And then we gave them food... Tejas: That Mobhu? Mahāṁśa: Mebubshah. He's a Muslim but he's so loyal. He's the best man. And then Puru and Hanumān. These three people, they are very loyal and they are trustworthy. These people in the villages, they tend... Because they have their home there, so sometimes they want something for their home, so they will steal. And if some other village man steals, he will not stop them. He will say, "All right," because if he stops him, then in his village there will be trouble for him. See? So he will encourage his other villagers to steal. But these men, if they see some villagers stealing, they will stop them. This has happened. Prabhupāda: This is natural. So how to deal with this? *Mahāṁśa: So we have both. We can get outsiders to come and stay here who we can give prasādam, make them chant, and give them mahā*-prasādam. They love it. In the morning. We used to give them a little mahā-prasādam in the morning. They like it very much. By that, we gain their confidence. *Prabhupāda: We shall like that they will come here and stay and remain our twenty*-four hours' son. That is very good also. Mahāṁśa: Only thing is that in the beginning, because they do not know us very well, they will demand some salary. I told you previously that now I am paying them hundred rupees and 125 rupees for family. Prabhupāda: So why 125? Hundred rupees sufficient. If they are eating and we are giving shelter, then a hundred rupees sufficient. Mahāṁśa: Hundred rupees... If they have a family, then his wife works also and his children who are grown up, they all work. Everyone works. Prabhupāda: So they'll also work. So that you have to decide. Manage so that there is no misunderstanding. Simply management required. So you... The best thing is that you should sit together... Tejas: Without fail we have to meet every evening. There shouldn't be any... Without fail every evening we should meet. Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be all right. Tejas: There shouldn't be many interruptions. Otherwise then it becomes a botheration. Haṁsadūta: One question I have, Prabhupāda. Yesterday, day before yesterday, we were discussing the prasādam cooking. Prabhupāda: So if they bring one nice cook... Haṁsadūta: Yes, well, this evening I was just over there, and I noticed some of the carpenters are cooking and I don't know who the other people are. Prabhupāda: Why? Mahāṁśa: They're not cooking for the feast. They're cooking their own thing. Haṁsadūta: No, no, no. They were cutting up our vegetables which are going to be cooked and served to the public. Mahāṁśa: No. Haṁsadūta: Yes, right over there by the fire. Prabhupāda: No uninitiated person should cook. Brāhmaṇa cook. Mahāṁśa: What about professional cooks? Prabhupāda: Real brāhmaṇa. Mahāṁśa: Professional cooks? Prabhupāda: Profes...? They are brāhmaṇas. Mahāṁśa: Yes, but they... Even though they are brāhmaṇas, they have this habit of smoking, and if we try to find a professional cook who doesn't smoke, it is very difficult. Prabhupāda: Hm. As far as possible, our men should cook, a professional man who is in good habit, who has promised that they will not do this smoking. We have to manage somehow. Mahāṁśa: As far as our devotees' cooking, it's practically impossible. We have tried so hard. They just can't do it. Yesterday two of the boys tried to help, and the rice was not cooked because it was not done and he burned his leg. The water fell on his leg, and he couldn't handle the pots properly and he got... Now the poor boy, he is suffering. He's got a wounded leg, one of the German boys, the one with long hair. So our devotees, they are not... This boy, Bengali boy, Divid (?), he's good. He can do it but he needs at least four or five men to help. Tejas: He was a professional cook but he's not... He can't do it himself. He needs too much... Mahāṁśa: He needs at least four people to help. It's a big cooking, so it's also very difficult for one man to do and nobody wants to help the cooking because it's so hot, the smoke goes in the eyes and it's very troublesome. So nobody wants to help in the cooking, devotees. Prabhupāda: Not willing. They are not willing. Mahāṁśa: They're not willing to help in the kitchen because it is very hot, very hard, the eyes get burned, things like that. So this one Bengali boy, he's a very good cook. He can do it very nicely but he wants help. And if no one helps, then he refuses to cook. And if you press him, then he runs away. Yesterday he tried to run away four times because we were trying to press him. Prabhupāda: No, no, cooking alone, it is not possible. So that you have to do. Find out some men. Cooperate. Otherwise how it is possible? Haṁsadūta: Yes, therefore I'm asking you about hired people, whether hired people are good. In my experience... Prabhupāda: So if they are, if our men not available, then you must hire, hire people. But not these carpenters or like that. Mahāṁśa: No, we should get professional cooks who are really good, like this man who cooked today. Prabhupāda: Yes. And this man is coming. He can bring. Mahāṁśa: Yes, he himself will come. But he will have the habit of smoking and I think we can at the most regulate his smoking. "If you want to smoke, you go somewhere far away and smoke and before you start cooking you must wash yourself, have a bath, and then do the cooking." Prabhupāda: Yes. What can be done? Ne māmā che kānā māmā (?) "If there is no uncle, one blind uncle is all right." So the matter is now clear. You do it and develop it. Jagadīśa: There is one confusion in my mind, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Mahāṁśa said that the local villagers will not be inclined to come here and live because they are living just outside. But my impression was, from hearing you speak was, that everyone, whether they're living just outside or a long distance outside, they are suffering from material existence. They're having to struggle for existence. They're being taxed by the government. There's so many problems to maintain themself. And every living being in the material world is struggling to maintain himself. But if we offer them a house here and some work and we give them all food, clothing, and... Prabhupāda: That is our aim. Jagadīśa: That's our aim. Prabhupāda: That is our aim. So you can engage some men to cut the hill for blocks and gradually develop house. Tejas: These Badapur (?), they are good men. Prabhupāda: Like this room, yes. And as far as possible, induce them to come and live here. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Yes, that can be done. But family attachment... You see, these people, they have also family attachment, just like karmīs. So they are not so willing to... Because their whole family... The whole village is like one family. It's like one family. They are all related to each other. And they can stay. They stay. Many of them stay here overnight. Prabhupāda: Naturally everyone wants to stay at his own place. "Home sweet home." "There is no place like home." That's a fact. That is psychology. They will like to stay there. But if they have got facility to live here with family they may come. Mahāṁśa: I was thinking we can make their house just like our house. If they are living right on our border, we can go to their house, tell them how to make an altar and make them live like how we are living. Let them stay there but let them live a good Kṛṣṇa conscious life. Prabhupāda: They'll come gradually, not immediately. Immediately, the psychology is, they have got attachment for their house. It may be worse house, but still, their attachment... That is natural. Long, long ago, when I was child practically, I went with my father in the village. So one man from the village was serving us. So my father: "This boy is nice. So why not take him to Calcutta?" So one day he was absent. It was dropping and... So I went in the interior of the village and I saw that his house was broken, there was no roof, and rain was falling and he was sitting, covering with a cloth. Then I told him that "Why not come with us in Calcutta? We shall give you nice place, nice food." So his answer was, nā bābu kanceri jabo nā (?): "Bābujī, I cannot go out of my home." That was his home. (laughter) This is my practical exp... He was sitting idly and it dropping and he could not come to serve. Still, that is his home, and he cannot leave home, that "Bābu kanceri jabo nā (?). That is psychology. It may be very worse condition; still, nobody wants to give up "home sweet home." That is natural psychology. So you have to manage. You see then why they, these Delhi passenger clerks... This morning I was telling that son was asking mother, "Who is this man?" His father, and he had never seen. "You have seen father." No, rather, he had no chance to see father because when the father comes back from the office it is night, ten o'clock or more than that. That time the son is sleeping, and again he has to go early in the morning. That time also, son is sleeping. So he did not know. So one Sunday, when he's grown up, he is asking his mother, "Who is this man?" "So this man..." Not only in India, in everywhere. I have seen in New York from the other island? What is that? Haṁsadūta: Long Island. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Long Island. Prabhupāda: Long Island. They are coming two hours in the ferry, three hours in the bus. They are going to the office. Eight hours there. Then five hours and eight hours, thirteen hours, again five hours. Then thirteen and..., eighteen hours. And for six hours they have got home. "Home sweet home." Mahāṁśa: I knew people coming from Poona to Bombay to work. Prabhupāda: Just see. Mahāṁśa: All the way from Poona. *Prabhupāda: The home attachment is so great. These Delhi passengers, they are coming, hanging, and there are so many accidents daily. And few hours he will live with wife. That is his home. And whole other, out of twenty*-four hours, seventeen hours are outside, and maybe seven hours at home. But still, he'll come home. The home attachment is very big. Therefore we have to create attachment for this hari-saṅkīrtana. If you create that attachment, then they will give up home attachment, try life, to live here. Athāsaktiḥ. You have to train them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in such a way. Then Tejas: Last night it was very hard. Again no one was coming to the kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tejas: These persons who are staying here in the garb of devotees, if they don't come... Mahāṁśa: Devotees. Tejas: No one would come. It was a great struggle. Again Jagadīśa and I and Mūrti, we were alone there and we had to go and get people and again they wouldn't come. Prabhupāda: So what is the use? Tejas: This Kṛṣṇan wouldn't come, and this other never comes. They should be made to leave. Otherwise they must follow the program. Kīrtana is so nice. All day we may be doing something. The only relief we get... Prabhupāda: No, without kīrtana, it is... Mahāṁśa: Refreshes you completely. Prabhupāda: If you stop kīrtana, then it is ordinary. Mahāṁśa: Work. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tejas: And these people are very enthusiastic for kīrtana. Prabhupāda: So our men should be, those who are here, they must be very enthusiastic. And the pandal, what is this play pandal? This pandal? It is very small. Make a big pandal. Mahāṁśa: But if you want every day we should buy one. Prabhupāda: Buy one. Mahāṁśa: Good one. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Make it over there, permanent place. With permanent speakers, permanent lights and... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Tejas: We should have every night. Prabhupāda: Do. Mahāṁśa: Prabhupāda wants us to continue every day kīrtana and prasādam. Prabhupāda: So do this and purchase. What is the price? Mahāṁśa: I'll find out tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it nice, enthusiastically. Everything will be success. So any other question to discuss? Haṁsadūta: I don't know if this is the time, but I think this project should have a separate account. Mahāṁśa: Yes. It will have an account in the name of the trust. The Venkatesh..., I mean ISKCON Venkateshwara Trust. So as soon as we register tomorrow, day after tomorrow we'll open an account in that name. With how many signees? Prabhupāda: So make three, you three. Mahāṁśa: Joint. Prabhupāda: Out of three, two. Out of three, any two will do. That's all. Mahāṁśa: And amount which will be given from Your Divine Grace will be a loan towards the trust which will be paid back later on. Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyāpura account you take. Ask them to transfer to this account. And when you want to pay... Mahāṁśa: Yes, then they transfer Prabhupāda: That's all. That will be... Do that. So open account. Haṁsadūta: Also that lakh of rupees which I gave him last year. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his. Haṁsadūta: The temple should pay it. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that one lakh rupees I will pay from the four and a half lakhs. You told me to put everything into your account. So should I put the four and a half lakhs into your account or should I put one lakh in this account and then three and a half... Prabhupāda: Anyway, give him. That's all. Mahāṁśa: Anyway. Okay. Prabhupāda: Otherwise give me, and I give him. Haṁsadūta: It was meant for here. We gave it from Germany for the project. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Yes, that is understood. Tejas: So that can go into this one. Mahāṁśa: Yes. It can go directly into this account. Prabhupāda: So immediately open account, and whatever minimum you want, I will give you. That's all. And three signatories. Out of three, two. Yes. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, if were going to have a permanent pandal for visitors, why don't we build some simple kīrtana hall where the people can also take prasādam, something like they built in Māyāpura but not... Prabhupāda: Do it... Do it gradually. For the time being have a pandal. Yes. Haṁsadūta: That could be used for kīrtana and prasādam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: That you told me just now, at that site where we have the permanent temple. Prabhupāda: That, tomorrow morning we shall see and make a... Mahāṁśa: A design. *Haṁsadūta: One more question. When... The first time you were here two years ago, you suggested that we should have Gaura*-Nitāi Deity immediately. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nṛsiṁhadeva, Gaura*-Nitāi and Jagannātha. Haṁsadūta: Right here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Shall we begin right here? We have this little place... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. *Haṁsadūta: I have a set of Gaura*-Nitāi's with me from the bus, but They're smaller. Prabhupāda: So immediately install. Immediately. Yes. And have regular kīrtana and ārati. Deity must be there. That will be our engagement. That's all right. Enthusiasm. Real thing is enthusiasm, utsāhān. Dhairya, patience. And... Mahāṁśa: Determination. Prabhupāda: Determination. Yes. "I must do it." And here if you make determination, everything is there. Everything is there. Such a vast land, and capital Kṛṣṇa will give. Land, labor. Labor is there. So simply organization required, that's all. Then everything is all right. Make use the production. First of all eat yourself as much as you... And then trade. Get money. People will be surprised at the organization. And there are twenty thousand men all round? Mahāṁśa: No, that is... Just in very near villages there's about eight thousand. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So if you can make one thousand person interested, then you'll be successful. So you can engage some worker for cutting the rocks. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Tomorrow I am arranging. Tejas: In this Dublipur(?) there's some very good workers. I saw in the village. They have so many places where there are rocks stacked up. And they have many craftsmen in that Dublipur. That's the main village in this area. They have them there, just near... Prabhupāda: This house, the blocks are prepared, you make huts and engage some men to make that tile. Mahāṁśa: Tiles. Round tiles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: The roof tiles. Mahāṁśa: Yes, just like the ones which are... Prabhupāda: Then locally you get everything. You haven't have to got to get from outside. Eh? Jagadīśa: Clay roof tiles. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very nice, very strong and very comfortable and simple. So the villagers have come? Mahāṁśa: Yes, it sounds like it. Tejas: Their children. By themselves they were doing this kīrtana. Jagadīśa: Is somebody leading kīrtana now? Tejas: The children. Jagadīśa: We should go. Mahāṁśa: Let's go. Prabhupāda: Sit down daily and make next program. Then it will be success. Mahāṁśa: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya. (end) *Press Conference-*-December 16, 1976, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: ...the right side is darkness. (Hindi) Guest (1) (Indian reporter): Obviously we have selected darkness. That is what we want to do. We want to go into light later on. Prabhupāda: You are requesting something... Veda says, "Come to the light." Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya: "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light." Guest (2): We want more light. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is desirable in human. Otherwise the animals are in darkness. They do not know what is God. But a human being, because he has got this human form of body, he can come to the light. So all the śāstras are for the human being, not for the cats and dogs. So if you do not take advantage of the śāstras, then you remain in the darkness. This is our position. The light is here. Just like apart from all other śāstras, if you take Bhagavad*-gītā, it is the very brilliant light. It is not that changing. Five thousand years ago Kṛṣṇa said, what, that is still the same thing. Just like light. Millions of years ago, what was sun, the same sun is there. In the light there is no change. In the darkness there is change. If we do not accept the standard knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā, then we shall continue to remain in darkness and there will be no solution of the problems of life. This is our propaganda. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we are asking everywhere, all over the world, "You come to this light and be happy." That's it. Guest (1): Swamiji, tell us something good, this āśrama, that you're doing. Prabhupāda: That Mahāṁśa... Where is Mahāṁśa? Āśrama means an attempt to give some light. That is the difference... Guest (3): According to us, even in lightness there is darkness. Prabhupāda: No, that is not light. That is called... Guest (3): There also it can grow from one level to higher level. Prabhupāda: ...ābhāsa. Ābhāsa. Just like in the morning there is no full sunshine, but there is some glimpse of light. That is not real light. Real light is full sunshine but before the sun rises fully there is some light. That light and this light different. We have to come to the full light. Then our life will be success. Not partial light. That will not help. The full light you can get from the Supreme Person, Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Ramachandra: Jyotiṣām api taj jyotis tamasaḥ param ucyate. *Prabhupāda: Yes. yes. Yes. So you take light from Kṛṣṇa. And that is full light, and you'll be happy. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Don't be satisfied with glimpse of light. Take full light. And that is open to everyone just like the sunshine is open to everyone. If you want to remain in the darkness, in the room, that is your business but you come to the... You can come to the full sunlight. That you can do. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone. He is speaking everything openly. There is no secret mantra. Everything is there. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām. This is open to everyone. Where is the difficulty? Unless we deny to accept Kṛṣṇa's instruction, there is no secret. Everything is open. But our leaders and scholars, they do not like to take Kṛṣṇa's instruction as it is. We are therefore insisting, we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, no interpretation. They say, "Why not interpretation?" That is the defect. We say no interpretation. You take Kṛṣṇa as it is, that's all. Then your life is successful. Guest (2): No interpretation is it? Prabhupāda: What interpretation you can give? He is authority and what you are? You can give interpretation? Guest (1): It is self yoga necessity (?). *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Simply... Yes. No, Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. There is no more superior authority, more superior authority than Kṛṣṇa. And when Kṛṣṇa was present on this earth, He proved it. There was nobody superior than Him. That's a fact. Still He is superior. His Bhagavad*-gītā is being studied all over the world with respect, determination, because He is still superior. That is superior. Dr. Ramachandra: Prabhupāda: And we are not changing. Because five thousand years have passed therefore, we have to make some additional, no. Guest (1): Then why should there be so many commentaries upon it? Prabhupāda: They are rascaldom, that's all. Simple word, rascaldom. Devotee: Rascaldom. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot interpret on the words of God. You cannot interpret. Just like law. There is law by the government. You cannot interpret in your own way. You have to accept it. "Keep to the right"*-no interpretation. You must keep to the right. That is law. If you say, "What is wrong if I go to the left?" Actually if one goes to the left, it is not very... But you cannot do it. As soon as you do it, you are criminal. You'll be punished. That is law. The dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. This is dharma. If you want a general definition of dharma, or religion, that is given in the śāstra that "Dharma means the law given by God." That is dharma. You cannot manufacture dharma. And because we are manufacturing so many dharmas, mental concoctions, there is no peace. And Kṛṣṇa therefore says that "You give up this rascaldom." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Dr. Ramachandra: Tasmāc chāstraṁ pramāṇaṁ te... Prabhupāda: The śāstra means what is spoken by God and His representative. That's all. That is śāstra. Unless Kṛṣṇa accepts śāstra, how He saying like that? Tasmāc chāstraṁ pramāṇaṁ te. Śāstra should be... Dr. Ramachandra: Some śāstras must be existing before... Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Ramachandra: Some śāstras after, existing before Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna. *Prabhupāda: Śāstra? Śāstra means it is authorized. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā is śāstra because it is spoken by Kṛṣṇa, the supreme authority. Therefore all the ācāryas, they accept it. Still the ācārya-sampradāyas are there. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Śaṅkara, they accept all this. And at the time of... *Guest (2): Do you accept the supremacy of the Vedas, veda*-pramāṇam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. And if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, then you do not know what is Veda. Your knowledge of *Vedas* will be accepted when you understand Kṛṣṇa. So if you do not know what Kṛṣṇa, then what is the use of taking so much trouble to study *Vedas*? You do not know anything. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Dr. Ramachandra: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Prabhupāda: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. That is knowledge. Dr. Ramachandra: Sa mahātmā. Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā. If you do not know vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], śrama eva hi kevalam: [SB 1.2.8] simply you have labored hard. That's all. You have gained nothing. And if you understood Vāsudeva, then you understood everything. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. Dr. Ramachandra: How do you explain vṛṣṇīnāṁ vāsudevo 'smi? Prabhupāda: Yes, He's the chief of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. That is the... He is the origin of everything. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. If you know the root, then you know the whole tree, where to water. If you water the root, so it, water goes. It goes to the highest twigs. You haven't got to take trouble to go to the up to pour water. You pour water in the root. This is the way. Guest (1): Once He says, vāsudevaḥ sarvam, and again He says, vṛṣṇīnāṁ vāsudevo 'smi. So the meaning of that word is... Prabhupāda: So does it mean that He is not sarvam? One who does not understand vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], particular, "It is also vāsudeva. It is also vāsudeva. It is also vāsudeva," that is called less intelligent. Otherwise one who is intelligent, he'll under..., vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: [Bg. 7.19] "Everything is vāsudeva." Sa mahātmā. But if he has no intelligence, then "I am this, I am God. I am Kṛṣṇa." The same example, just like here is a tree. If I say, "The root, you pour water," here is everything. Otherwise this is also tree, the leaf is also tree, the twig also tree, the flower is also tree... You go on like that. They are of the same value. But if one is intelligent, he will understand, "Here is everything," vāsudevaḥ sarvam, the root. That's all. What is that? Devotee: I was just telling this gentleman that the reporters may have some other questions also. Prabhupāda: Then that is his wish. (pause) This is our movement. Guest (4): Through meditation you attain mukti? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (4): Through meditation ultimately you attain Him. Prabhupāda: What do you mean by meditation? Guest (4): I don't know, but normally it is understood to be... Prabhupāda: Then why you are talking of meditation? Guest (4): Normally as it is understood by. Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (4): Concentration. Prabhupāda: Which concentration? What is the subject? Guest (4): It can be from man to man, from... One may do it on Kṛṣṇa and one may do it on... Prabhupāda: That is not standard. If meditation is according to one's whims, that is not meditation. Guest (4): But it depends upon the faith. *Prabhupāda: According to śāstra, meditation means to meditate upon God. That is meditation. Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. Yoginaḥ, those who are yogis, they meditate upon the form of the Lord. Guest (4): So through that, you... Prabhupāda: That is meditation. Guest (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: Other things, they have manufactured concoctions. Guest (4): Maybe, but through that, you say you attain God, is it? Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest (4): You attain God or what is the concept? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Meditation means Kṛṣṇa. He says meditation. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: "Just concentrate your mind upon Me." This is meditation. Guest (4): Then, in due course of time, do you see Him? Or in what form? Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately you see Him. Kṛṣṇa's picture is there. Kṛṣṇa's picture and Kṛṣṇa is not different. So if you concentrate upon Kṛṣṇa, you immediately see Him. Guest (4): You see Him. *Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately. But if you think Kṛṣṇa has no form, then it is difficult. Immediately. Now He says, man*-manāḥ. He personally says, man-manāḥ, so where is the difficulty? Guest (4): No, the form of the light, you see or...? *Prabhupāda: Why light? With two hands, two legs, He is speaking, man*-manāḥ: "Me." Why light? Light is another feature of His existence, but He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. Therefore we are presenting. Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.65]. Guest (4): In other words, do mean to say that you see Him in three dimensions? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (4): You see Him in three dimensions? Prabhupāda: Unlimited dimension. Three dimension for you because You cannot see Him. Otherwise He is unlimited. That's it. But you cannot see unlimited. That is His mercy, that He presents Himself before you in three dimension because you have no eyes to see Him in His unlimited dimension. That is not possible. So it is His mercy. But He is not limited with three dimensions. Guest (4): No, no, I'm not saying He is limited. As a man sees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he is limited... Guest (4): As the man's concentration through which progresses, how, in what forms he goes on seeing Him? That is what my question is. *Prabhupāda: Therefore question is just simplified, that... Therefore we establish temple: "Here is Kṛṣṇa." That's all. If you say that "Kṛṣṇa is all pervading. Why shall I come to the temple?" And why not in the temple if He's all*-pervading? But you say, "No, I am not going to see in the temple. I shall see outside in the sky." Then you don't see. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is everywhere; *why not in the temple? What is that argument? He is here also. But according to my capacity I can see temple, Kṛṣṇa, very easily. So Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. You come daily to the temple and see Him and think of Him. There is no... Mahāṁśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, may I introduce the project over here? Prabhupāda: Eh? Mahāṁśa: May I introduce the press to the project over here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: So by Kṛṣṇa's grace we have been given this plot of land which is 565 acres exactly, in two villages, that is, Dublipur(?) and Kanaipali villages. Lands are situated in the jurisdiction of these... Guest (5): Dublipur(?) and what is the other? Mahāṁśa: Kanaipali. And the lands were originally in the Venkateshvara Gorakshini Trust, and they have transferred these lands to ISKCON Venkateshvara Trust under the chairmanship of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. So our interest here is to... This area, the whole area here, is very dry. Although there is potency of..., there is potential for tapping water, it has been left dry and unused just like so much land all over. You can see. There is so much land which is unused, vacant, just like this. So we have been given this piece of land. We want to set an example of how such wasted land can be, with proper management and organization, it can be made usable to grow food, abundant food grains and fruits and to feed unlimited... Prabhupāda: And offer them to Kṛṣṇa and distribute prasādam. Mahāṁśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is our mission. We are already giving prasādam daily in the evening. There is no question of making profit. Guest (5): So anyone can come and live here. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Guest (5): Irrespective of religion... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Actually that is happening. Somebody has come from Germany, somebody from (indistinct), somebody Australia, somebody... Guest (6): And even if he doesn't subscribe the śikṣā to which you want them to. Even those who don't subscribe to... Prabhupāda: Then how he can live? If he does not live like us, then how he can live? Guest (6): That is his question. Supposing he doesn't subscribe, still will he be allowed to come and live? Prabhupāda: No, no, if he lives, then he will subscribe. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. If you associate with good men you become a good man. If you associate with drunkard, you become drunkard. So we are giving the chance. Associate with us and you'll be devotee. That is becoming. So we are giving that chance. Come and live with us. Guest (6): And what are the other point of stress in temples...? Mahāṁśa: Yes. To facilitate a harmonious Kṛṣṇa conscious community we will have all facilities. There will be temples. Prabhupāda: Let them come here, live peacefully, eat sumptuously, get all the other necessities of life and become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our... And we have no discrimination, Hindu, Muslim, Christian. No. We have got many Christians, many Jews, many Hindus, many Muslims, many Africans. They are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (5): Even in India, Muslims are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Well, Muslim India or same India, those who are intelligent, they are taking. Guest (5): In this country also they have taken? Prabhupāda: Yes. Some of the Pakistanis, they have taken. Of course, he is living in foreign country. One Dr. Ramjan (?), he is the professor in Portland. He is my disciple. I have given him the name, Rāmarañjana from Ramjan. Guest (3): He has renounced his religion of Islam. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is there. Yes. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. That is wanted. Guest (3): Can you repeat his name, please? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (3): Can you give his name? Prabhupāda: I said, Ramjan, Dr. Ramjan, in Portland University. Mahāṁśa: Also Ātreya Ṛṣi. Prabhupāda: Ah, Ātreya Ṛṣi, yes. He is Iranian. Dr. Ramachandra: He is also Muslim? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many Iranians, they have become our devotees. We have got a temple in Tehran. Devotee: In Hyderabad there is Muslim. He is a life member. *Prabhupāda: No, that, life member... God consciousness... Who will deny God? It is a science. So we are teaching the science, not the bigotry, "my God, your God." God is one. Gold is gold. Gold does not become Hindu gold, Muslim gold, or Christian gold. Anywhere gold is available, it is gold. That is our definition. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. That is highest, topmost type of religion, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, where one can learn how to love God, that's all. That is wanted. We are teaching that. There is no question of "this God, that God." God is one. You just practice how to love Him. Then your religion is first*-class. Guest (5): But why give names to Him? Why give names to that God? Prabhupāda: No name. When I say, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, this is not name. Adhokṣaja means "who is beyond your sense perception." Guest (5): It can be Allah, Christ, even Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But you must know what is meaning of God. That's all. His name... Just like water. You say, "water," he says, pāni, he says, autuk (?). So water is water. Similarly, you must know what is God. Name does not matter. But Kṛṣṇa is the perfect name, Kṛṣṇa, according to Sanskrit, all*-attractive. The God must be all-attractive; otherwise how He is God? That is the perfect name. Now, if you want to give another name we have no objection. There are hundreds and thousands of names, whatever you like. But it must be God's name. You must understand what is God. Then it is perfect. (aside:) Get on this light. It is scientific. It is not a religious sentiment. Why they should manufacture God? God is God. Gold is gold. And God definition is there in the Vedic literature. Guest (6): In order to establish the āśrama will you be spending part of the year here? Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got so many centers that if I stay in each center three days, the whole year is finished. What can be done? Guest (5): Swamiji, how many āśramas and things you have? *Prabhupāda: 102, big, big āśramas. And we are feeding twenty thousand men daily without any income. The God sends. Yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham [Bg. 9.22]. We are spending twelve lakhs of rupees per month in New York and similarly other centers. Guest (6): Twelve lakhs also in Delhi center only? Prabhupāda: New York. New York. Guest (5): Where do you get these funds? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (5): Where do you get these funds? Prabhupāda: God sends. Guest (5): God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (5): But he's not sending funds, the god, planning commissioner. Prabhupāda: Because he is not devotee. How He'll send? You feed your son, not the outsider. Guest (5): But God doesn't discriminate. Prabhupāda: So that, general food is there, but special, special mercy, is for the devotee. Just like you have got sympathy for all the children, but you have got special sympathy for your own children. Guest (4): How many āśramas do you have in India? Prabhupāda: India, I have got about six, seven. Devotee: Eight. Eight. Prabhupāda: Eight. Out of 102, in India I have got only eight. In America we have got forty centers. Hari-śauri: Fifty with the farms. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: Fifty, more than fifty, with the farms. Prabhupāda: Farms. Guest (3): Fifty, five zero. Guest (5): Yes, five zero. Prabhupāda: No, in America. We have got farms like this. They are very successful. They are eating fresh vegetables, fresh grains and milk, and chanting. The temple is there. They have left the city life. So I want to organize that here also. We have already one in Navadvīpa. The devotees are there. They are having their own cloth, own food, own milk, residence, and chanting. That's all. Guest (3): Total membership for around the world? Prabhupāda: Total membership is practically unlimited because we are now getting opposition, so... But actually dedicated life, about ten thousand like these boys. Guest (5): What's going to be the name of this āśrama? Prabhupāda: It is already told. It is ISKCON Venkateshvara Trust. Guest (5): The name of the trust will be the name of the āśrama. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: New Naimiṣāraṇya? Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: New Naimiṣāraṇya? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is secondary, but legal is... Dr. Ramachandra: Shall we go now? Mahāṁśa: I'll take them around. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Show them. Thank you very much. [break] Guest (8): Mr. Patel? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (8): Did he invite you or...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (8): Any idea of the topics? *Prabhupāda: About Bhagavad*-gītā. Some of them, they are a little surprised how I have alone spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world and all the yogis and swamis, they could not rise, combined together. That is his little surprise. Guest (8): Did it surprise Bhave? Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise why he is inviting me? He could not do. Guest (8): And Swamiji, when you are meeting Bhave? Prabhupāda: Eighteenth. Not only him, but there are so many swamis. They are also going but not a single Kṛṣṇa devotee they could turn. That's a fact. For the last two hundred years, that's a fact. You cannot deny the fact. But within ten years we have got so many centers and so many. That is little surprising. Guest (8): You'll be talking about the cow protection also. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Whatever Kṛṣṇa has said. Kṛṣṇa says, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. He is giving you. That is our duty. I told these boys, "The cows, whether they give milk or not milk, it doesn't matter. They should be given protection." Guest (8): They should be given? *Prabhupāda: Given protection. If Kṛṣṇa says, go*-rakṣya... He doesn't say only give protection to the milk cow. Guest (8): Once they expire, how do you propose to expose of the body? Prabhupāda: Then they can eat, those who are eating cows. Just like in our country the cāmāras, they take away and take the skin for preparing shoes and eat the flesh and use the bone. So we request those who are flesh eaters, that "Wait up to the natural death. Why you are killing?" Guest (9): So you support actually government ban of slaughter. Prabhupāda: Certainly. Guest (9): After the cow is dead, if the flesh is taken, it is... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (9): You have no objection. Prabhupāda: No. The vultures, they live on the cow's flesh, so what objection we have got? We don't... We say, "Don't kill." Guest (9): After the natural death, not slaughter. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. If they are... Now you can do whatever you like. Our philosophy... *Guest (9): It is only ten*-year-old movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (9): It started in... Prabhupāda: It started in actually 1967. But the preliminary arrangement was made from 1965. Two years I had spent for making the suitable ground. Guest (9): Obviously the first, when you started in the United States. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (9): The first āśrama. Prabhupāda: Yes. New York. Guest (9): And that was in '67. Prabhupāda: Yes. It was registered in..., by at the end of '66, July, '66, and then it took some time to find out some place. So in '67 I found out some place. Guest (9): But you don't have an overall budget of all these 102 āśramas. Prabhupāda: I have my book trust. The daily collection of book trust is five to six lakhs of rupees. Daily. Guest (9): Daily. Oh, book trust. Oh, by the sale of books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And I have asked them, "Fifty percent, you print books again, and fifty percent, you spend." That's all. Same thing. Guest (9): Spend on what? Prabhupāda: Spend for this purpose, propagation. That is my mi... And if I would have taken some royalty, then my daily income would have been not less than 75,000 per day. Guest (9): After income tax, little would be left. Prabhupāda: There is no income tax. We are charity. Guest (9): 75,000 daily, you said. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because five to six lakhs daily collection. If I take minimum fifteen percent, what it comes to? Big, big authors, they get twenty*-five percent. Guest (9): But one gentleman... I think in this temple... Some of your books are, rather, prohibiting the cost. Prabhupāda: Yes, this was meant for the outside. Because our countrymen, they are learned, they don't require. They are so learned, they don't require anybody. Therefore it is prohibited. Better they do not take it. Otherwise they will misinterpret. That's all. Their only business is misinterpret. Therefore the prohibited price. Guest (9): There is something which is difficult to make them understand. Prabhupāda: Therefore better they do not take it. Guest (9): It's easy to go in the virgin soil. Prabhupāda: That means they do not understand what is the meaning of śāstra. They want to interpret śāstra in their own way. That is the difficulty. Big, big person... Guest (9): Real testing would be only in India in that case. Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa does not speak for Indians. He is for everyone. Guest (9): The sections of your movement accept in that sense. Prabhupāda: No, they have given up. They have purposefully given up, that "This religion and śāstra has killed our nation. Better give it up. Throw it in the water." This is the leaders' plea. Therefore they are changing. They have altogether rejected this. Indian reporter: No, they don't reject. They give religious freedom. Prabhupāda: What is freedom? That "Whatever you like, you do." Indian reporter: No, not that. Prabhupāda: So then what is freedom? Indian reporter: Whichever religion I like, I am free to follow it. Prabhupāda: This freedom means you can manufacture your own religion. And this is freedom. They want this freedom, that you can manufacture. Yato mata tato patha, as the Ramakrishna Mission says, that "You can manufacture your own way of religion." Dr. Ramachandra: Somebody said religion is the opium of the masses. Prabhupāda: Yes, they will say. Dr. Ramachandra: That is... They trained us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ramachandra: I think you're right in saying that the government has rejected it, in that sense. Prabhupāda: But they do not know what is religion. That is the difficulty. Religion is here. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is religion. Guest (9): Recently a political party also has alleged that ISKCON temples have become abode of the CIA agents. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (9): What do you say for it? Prabhupāda: We are detecting who is irreligious. That's all. That is our business. Guest (3): They are detecting who is irreligious. Prabhupāda: He is going on in the name of religion, but he does not know what is religion. So that we are detecting. You can say like that. This is our business. Guest (3): It was an allegation by an important... Prabhupāda: It is allegation. And they are so fools that the Americans, they have come here to become Vaiṣṇava and starvation and they have become religious. They have no food there, and they have come to me and they have no dress, they have... And this boy is English boy. He is giving me massage as if he's a poor man's son. This is... Is he poor man's son? Why he is giving massage? We are Indian, poor Indian. He is not in need of money. He even buys his own cloth. The other day I was chastising him, "Why you are purchasing? You take." "No, I have got money." Just see. This is their position. Dr. Ramachandra: May we take leave? *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes. (Hindi*-jokes about CIA) (laughter) Dr. Ramachandra: This is wild allegation. Prabhupāda: It is no reason. (Hindi) As if they have no money to go to the hotel. Dr. Ramachandra: In India everything is after CIA now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Ramachandra: Everything is after CIA. Prabhupāda: And in Parliament it has been denied. Rather, Home Member said that "We have no information that they are CIA." Parliament challenged, "What steps you are going to take?" And "No step. There is no information." They are afraid of the American government because of this Bangladesh affair. And otherwise government appreciates this movement. But because the Americans are there they think, "Some may do something," in this way. Yes. But there is no such chance. They are all devotees. They have nothing to do... Dr. Ramachandra: This is a purely religious movement. Prabhupāda: That is right. They have nothing to do with politics. And if they found any politics, they can hang me. I shall go. Dr. Ramachandra: I am doctor from Hyderabad, so I wanted to pay my respects to you. Prabhupāda: Oh. Thank you very much. Dr. Ramachandra: I am eye specialist practicing in Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: You are very qualified. Dr. Ramachandra: With your grace. So I have been thinking of meeting you for a long time, and when I was told you are leaving tomorrow, then I said I would come and pay my respects to you. Prabhupāda: Very good. Very good. Thank you. Dr. Ramachandra: It's our luck that I could meet you. You are a great leader of, religious leader, you see, international. And you belong to order of the Caitanya Maṭha. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ramachandra: It's a great bhakti movement. So any services I am prepared to give for the āśrama, with your... Prabhupāda: (aside:) So keep this card. The Dr. Ramachandra is ready. Dr. Ramachandra: I am on telephone also. Prabhupāda: So any help you want, we'll give. It is very nice. (Hindi) Dr. Ramachandra: I only want that your movement should utilize my services because I believe service to mankind is service to God. Prabhupāda: No, no, service to God is service to mankind. If you pour water in the root, then it is service to the tree. And if you pour water on the leaf, then nobody is served. Everything will be dry, that's all. That is imperfect service. If you have got realization of God, why should you give only human being service? Why not tiger? He is also... Kṛṣṇa says, "They are also My sons." That means you discriminate. That is not that... Father will be satisfied when all the sons are given, not partial, not partial. Suppose I have got five children. If you give service to one children, so I'll ask that "Why not other children?" Naturally. Dr. Ramachandra: Discrimination comes. *Prabhupāda: Discrimination comes. So if you have realized God, then you must be learned. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. *Dr. Ramachandra: Śuni caiva śva*-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. *Prabhupāda: Why you make distinction, daridra*-nārāyaṇa? Why not dhanī-nārāyaṇa? If Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, why not dhanī? So our vision is either he is dhanī or daridra, he is blind because he does not know God. Dr. Ramachandra: You want to give light. Prabhupāda: That's all. We do not discriminate in that way. We discriminate in this way, that "Here is a man who knows about God, and here is a man who does not know." Dr. Ramachandra: Any service for āśrama, I am volunteering, sir. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Service... So long we have got this body, we require your service. We have got the eyes. Naturally... Dr. Ramachandra: So you can tell your disciples Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So take. He's so kind. That's it. (end) *Room Conversation-*-December 20, 1976, Bombay *Prabhupāda: Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. "This science of Bhagavad-gītā, I spoke to the sun*-god millions of years ago." By the calculation it is forty millions of years ago. Now who will believe that, that Kṛṣṇa spoke this Bhagavad-gītā forty millions of years ago to the sun-god? Hm? Who will believe that? They'll say mythology. So where is the faith in Bhagavad-gītā and faith in the words of Kṛṣṇa? Understanding Hamlet without Hamlet. (distortion) You cannot make your interpretation that whatever is written there, I take instead of..., I take... (coughing) That is not the way of understanding Bhagavad-gītā. Then from the very beginning you'll spoil it. Then what is the meaning of preaching Bhagavad-gītā? If you do not accept the direction of the author, then what right you have got to say that you have understood Bhagavad-gītā? Guest (Indian man): Could it be that there may be different interpretations? *Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. That is not the process. You cannot interpret Bhagavad*-gītā. If you want to preach Bhagavad-gītā, you must preach what Kṛṣṇa has said. If you have got a different philosophy, you can say differently. You don't cheat people that you take Bhagavad-gītā and interpret in your own way and cheat others and be cheated yourself. You cannot do that. Guest: Well, for example, Tilak Maharaj... *Prabhupāda: Tilak may be, Gandhi may be, whoever may be. But the point is that you have to understand Bhagavad*-gītā according to the direction of the author. Because you are Mr. Tilak or Mr. Gandhi, you can do everything on Bhagavad-gītā... Guest: No no, that is not the idea. But there are different type ślokas. *Prabhupāda: Now how you have got a different types of... Just like the Bhagavad*-gītā begins, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. So dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre, how you can interpret in a different way? Kurukṣetra is already there. But how you can interpret, "Kurukṣetra means this, Kurukṣetra means that?" You cannot interpret. Guest: Yes, but who is decided what exactly the meaning... Prabhupāda: Exactly the meaning is there. Guest: Literal, literally. *Prabhupāda: Literally, yes. The thing is the interpretation is required when you cannot understand. If, if I say, "This is a stick," everyone knows it is a stick. So I say, "Here is a stick." So if you say, "No, I do not accept it is stick." So what is that interpretation? Everyone knows it is stick. Similarly, Kurukṣetra means that the place, still existing. And in the Vedic śāstra it is ordered, kurukṣetre dharma yajayet. You go... From time immemorial it is a place of pilgrimage. Even Kṛṣṇa, during solar eclipse, Kṛṣṇa with His family, He came there, Jagannātha. The ceremony is there, Ratha*-yātrā. Because Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma and Subhadra came in the same chariot. That is being performed. So Kurukṣetra, dharmakṣetra, at least five thousand years ago the system was that people used to come to Kurukṣetra as a place of pilgrimage, dharmakṣetra. And Kurukṣetra, the place is there. And the the two family members, the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, they fought. The Battle of Kurukṣetra took place. These things are evident. Then why there is need of interpreting? That is the first point. Guest: Those points are very clear. *Prabhupāda: Every point is very clear. In the Bhagavad*-gītā, every point is very clear, unless you interpret it in the wrong way. ("Kṛṣṇa Meditations" is recorded on this tape also, making it indistinct) Guest: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: But how it can be called? If you interpret in your own way, interpret in your own way, interpretation, then where is Bhagavad*-gītā? Best thing is that take Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Then there will be (indistinct). Why you should interpret? You have no right to interpret on the words of Bhagavad-gītā? Guest: But Swamiji, you have also given so much (indistinct). That is interpretation. Prabhupāda: No, that is not interpretation. That is explanation. Interpretation, if I change Kurukṣetra into something else, that is interpretation. That is wisdom. That is wisdom. Guest: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say instead of collecting so many hundreds and thousands of literature on the Bhagavad*-gītā, why not take Bhagavad-gītā as it is? What is the difficulty? Kurukṣetra is this position is fact. Mahābhārata, Mahābhārata means greater India. And that is, it is itihasa. It is called itihāsa. Itihāsa, if you don't believe that there was a battle in the Kurukṣetra... But that is the fact. It is the history. Then how you can finish (?) Bhagavad-Gītā? Every point of Bhagavad-gītā, it is clear. It is clear. There is no need of interpretation. That is the first thing. If you interpret you spoil the whole thing. Because interpretation is required when the things are not clear. If everything is clear, why should you interpret? Guest: No, it is explanation I think. Prabhupāda: Explanation, you cannot explain that Kurukṣetra means this, dharmakṣetra means this, Pāṇḍava means this. Why? Guest: No, no. Prabhupāda: Take Sanskrit. Take Sanskrit. Dharmakṣetre kurukṣetre. do not interpret to any other language. Take Sanskrit. Kurukṣetra is clear, dharmakṣetra is clear, Pāṇḍava is clear. Then why should we interpret? Why not take the particular verse. Everything, when there is a (indistinct), then please do not try to cut, or (indistinct) your (indistinct). If there is... (indistinct) ...but by translating the whole thing you mistake then what is the use of such translation? (indistinct) Guest: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you first of all learn Sanskrit, then you (indistinct). If there is (indistinct). This practice should be stopped. If you want to preach Bhagavad*-gītā, and if you want to preach your own philosophy through Bhagavad-gītā, don't do this preaching. You preach your philosophy, your (indistinct). You can preach any philosophy you like, but don't take Bhagavad-gītā and (indistinct) on it. (?) That is my (indistinct). That is being done. That is being done. So therefore, instead of studying, collecting so many literatures, why not take Bhagavad-gītā as it is and preach? And as evidence to prove he is (indistinct) ...all over the world. Before me for 200 years there was preaching of Bhagavad-gītā. Not a single person became... It is the history of (indistinct). Now you see thousands. Why? Because there is no interpretation. There is no interpretation. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the Supreme." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. We are presenting, "Here is God." You are searching after God, Kṛṣṇa, and they are accepting. They do not (indistinct), what is Kṛṣṇa. What is this? How they are accepting? Because it is the real thing, there is no interpretation. They are not Hindus, they are not born in India. How they have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? They have given up bad habits, no illicit sex. Because you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa unless you are free from all sinful activities. Anyone who is sinful, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. We test him. We test like this, that Kṛṣṇa says this, that anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord, he is under the four groups: duṣkṛtina, mūḍhāḥ, narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. That's it. We are fools and rascals, we have no such education. But we take Kṛṣṇa's word that "Here is a fool, here is a sinful man, here is a narādhamāḥ, here is māyayāpahṛta." So unless you stick to this point, that we shall preach Bhagavad-gītā (indistinct) then there is no meaning of it. You are misled, you will mislead others. But if you take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, as Kṛṣṇa said, then... If you are not prepared to do that, then however (indistinct) interpretation, thousands of literatures, the result is (indistinct). This is practical. Guest: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: If there is no reason then why there are so many interpretations of Bhagavad*-gītā? Guest: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (Hindi back and forth) Indian lady: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: So many (indistinct), that's all right, But if you want to preach Bhagavad*-gītā, you have to do like that. Indian lady: (Yelling) Prabhupāda: (angry) I don't say Caitanya, I say Kṛṣṇa. Why you misunderstand? Don't talk like that. I don't say that. Why you have misunderstood? Don't disturb in that... I don't say Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Why you are bringing Caitanya? You are saying. I say what Kṛṣṇa says, you do that. Indian lady: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So why you shall go to so many leaders? Why not go to the supreme leader, Kṛṣṇa? Indian lady: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: If you explain, that is another... But interpretation. Guest: That is the basic... Prabhupāda: That is already there. What Kṛṣṇa says, you say. Guest: No, that is all right. Not to go further. As an organization we want to know your views on those points. Prabhupāda: Now what is the first point? *Jagadisa: "To collect all available materials and survey all institutions in India and abroad who are doing work based on Bhagavad*-gītā so that we will have completely up to date library." *Prabhupāda: So I say what is the need of collecting? What Bhagavad*-gītās you have got? Guest: For information. *Prabhupāda: Information... Bhagavad*-gītā, take information from Bhagavad-gītā. What others have said you have nothing to do. Guest: Now for example, we should have literature on *Gītā*. Prabhupāda: Then there will be no limit. There are so many, 600,000 interpretations. Then your life will be spend (indistinct) for collecting. Devotee: If I want to go to Bombay, I must have the correct timetable. Not a false timetable. *Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, what Kṛṣṇa directs, evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Paramparā means to hear the truth from the spiritual master. You take this. Kṛṣṇa... Arjuna accepted, when he was puzzled whether to fight or not to fight, he accepted Kṛṣṇa as guru. Śiṣyas te 'ham. "Now I don't want to talk or argue with You," because as soon as you become a śiṣya you have to accept the statement of the guru. That is the relationship between guru and śiṣya. You cannot talk with guru from the same level. Whatever guru says you have to accept. Otherwise don't accept guru. Don't make a fashion of taking guru just like you keep a dog. Guru, first of all you have to select. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. You have to select such a person where you can fully surrender. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted by Arjuna like that. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. First of all. "I have surrendered to you." This is the first instance (instruction?). That means whatever He says, and at last He says, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi [Bg. 10.14]. This is... Not that you make cut cut.(?) That is the process. Here is the paramparā. Kṛṣṇa is speaking Arjuna and Arjuna is accepting, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi [Bg. 10.14]. This is... Not that you make cut*-cut (?). "Whatever You have said." Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. "You have said that You are the Supreme, paraṁ brahma. I accept it." This is paramparā. So we have not seen Kṛṣṇa talking, but the words are there. So Arjuna has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the paraṁ brahma. How we have change of, "Kṛṣṇa is..."? So first of all we have to accept by the paramparā system. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. That paramparā is now gone, Kṛṣṇa says, therefore I am speaking to you again age-old-system. Not that new. Purāṇa. And now you take. How Arjuna is accepting? Arjuna said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye [Bg. 10.14]. (Hindi) That is not Bhagavad-gītā understanding. You take paramparā system, you try to understand Kṛṣṇa as Arjuna has understood. That is bhakti. Otherwise it is (indistinct). There is no meaning. But if anyone has accepted the paramparā system as Arjuna has understood then he can speak on Bhagavad-gītā. Otherwise he has no right to speak anything. That is paramparā. Guest: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: But All India conference, it is not for mass understanding. Kṛṣṇa said yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ. Śreṣṭhaḥ means the leaders of society. Rājarṣayo. Not ordinary persons. Rāja, he must be just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, Lord Rāmacandra, Mahārāja Ambarīṣa. They are rājarṣi. They are saintly persons, but they are governor. Such persons should understand. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ tad tad evetaro janaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. If the śreṣṭha person understands Bhagavad*-gītā, it is not for the mass of people. Because Guest: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: If you say my idea then I become one of you. (laughter) So I don't want that. I say I am foolish man. I have no idea. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, that is idea. Just like a child, he speaks the words of the father. If the father... The child asks,"Father, what is this?" The father says, "This is a stick." So if the child says, "That is a stick," so that is correct. He may be a child. Because he repeats the words of the father... (Hindi) If the people are fools and rascals, then other will be fool and rascal. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. (Hindi) If you accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme then where is the question of interpretation? (Hindi conversation) But who accepted? This is a fact. You try to understand that before me for 200 years so many swamis, yogis were there. Not a single man became Kṛṣṇa conscious. (Hindi conversation) He is not teacher he is cheater. Why should you change Kṛṣṇa's words? That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Don't manufacture. What Kṛṣṇa has said, you say. Just as a child he can say, "This is a stick." "How you have learned?" "Father said." That's all. (Hindi) I started this business with forty rupees. (laughter) (Hindi) Yes when I went to New York they allowed me only forty rupees. (Hindi to end) *Room Conversationwith Indian Man-*-December 22, 1976, Poona *Indian man: ...self*-realization. Various methods, as many people are there, so many techniques are there. Each individual has to find out his own way. Prabhupāda: Do you think that is scientific proposal? Indian man: They say. Prabhupāda: I say they are (indistinct). Just like you go to educational institution, is there any knowledge that is to be realized according to the whims of the students? Indian man: Not the knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Then what is this? Self*-realization, what it is? Indian man: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: That is knowledge, that is knowledge. Self*-realization. Indian man: This is, one part is true knowledge. *Prabhupāda: No, not, suppose self*-realization, what I am, is it not? Indian man: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So what I am, then you have to study in this way, whether you are this body or you are something else. Is it not? So that is in the beginning of the Bhagavad*-gītā explained, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Find out this verse. This is self-realization. Bhagavad-gītā begins with self-realization, what I am. Am I this body or I am something other than this body? That is self-realization. So that is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. *Indian man: Yes, he has spoken on Bhagavad*-gītā also. *Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, this self*-realization, as you said, that "There are as many ways as there are students," that is not scientific. Indian man: That what he says. *Prabhupāda: That is wrong. Not maybe. Then let us try to understand. It is not the question of maybe. Self*-realization must be. That is self-realization. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. Śrotavyādīni rājendra nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ [SB 2.1.2]. (aside:) You come to this side, that's all right. Those who are not self-realized, they have got many questions and many answers. And those who are, one who is self-realized, he has only one question and one answer. One question, that what I am. There is no self-realization, one question, what I am. And now what I am, do you think there is, a student, he is inquiring, what I am, and whatever he thinks, that is his answer? If the student is ignorant... Therefore there are many students and many questions about self-realization. Do you think that there are many answers? Indian man: Answer will be one. *Prabhupāda: This is self*-realization. The answer is one, that "I am not this body." This is self-realization. You cannot say that because there are many students, so there are many answers. Indian man: But who am I? Every individual starts quest, asking himself, "Who am I?" And everybody is thinking in his own terms that "I am something, I am somebody." Somebody is attached to the upper garments. Prabhupāda: So long he is student, student means he does not know. Indian man: Yes, he is ignorant. Prabhupāda: He is ignorant. So his question is what I am, but he is ignorant. He cannot give the answer. The master. The master will give one answer. Indian man: His answer will be one, but to how the student understands, for making student understand, he will have to show in different ways. Suppose a person is coming from Himalayas to the Bombay, his path will be different. Greenery will be there, flowing rivulets will be there, mountain peaks scattered with snow will be there.... Prabhupāda: That is another thing. If you have to go to the Himalaya, you must go to the path which leads to Himalaya. You cannot accept a path which leads to Delhi. There is no different answer, the answer is one. Just like Himalaya is in the northern side. The answer would be, "The Himalaya is on the northern side." Nobody will say, "No, Himalaya may be in the eastern side or the western side or southern side." That is not the answer. Indian man: I was saying something different. That one person is coming from Himalaya towards Bombay. And one is coming from the desert side. No ulti... Prabhupāda: Then if he is coming from Himalayas, then why is the question about where is Himalaya? Then why will he question where is Himalaya? He is already coming from Himalaya. So there is no question where is Himalaya. For him there is no question. One who does not know where is Himalaya, the answer will be Himalaya is on the northern side. The answer is one. And if you say that there are many students, so you can answer, that "Either you go this side or this side or that side, Himalaya is there," that is not the answer. Indian man: East is not east, south is not south, north is not north when you go the opposite direction. Prabhupāda: What. Then what is the meaning of east, west, south? If it is not east? If east is not east, then why do you call it east? Indian man: Because the paradox, we are having sun rises, sun sets. But why there is two things, the sun never sets. Rises, the sun never sets. Prabhupāda: No, no. Sun rises from the east. Indian man: But the fact is sun never rises. Sun is only there. Prabhupāda: Sun never rises. Then where is the question that "Where is sun?" To your experience? If the sun rises, and if you say the sun never rises, if you know it, then what is your question? Indian man: That is the question where realization is over. Prabhupāda: What is your realization over? You see that the sun rises from the east. So everyone knows. Then where is the question? Anyone who has realized the sun never rises, then he has no question. Indian man: Yes. So that present question is dropped. Prabhupāda: Then there is no question at all. If one has known it, the sun is always 24 hours on the sky, it never rises, never sets, then where is the question? He knows it. Indian man: But that present question is dropped. Otherwise, ignorance remains. One says that sun is rising, sun is setting. Prabhupāda: For him there is question, that what is the process. So therefore the question is by the ignorant, and answer is by the master. The answer is one. Because everyone is coming, student, he is ignorant. So he may question in a whimsical way, but the answer is one. Answer cannot be many. Indian man: Suppose there is a blind person... Prabhupāda: Blind person, he should hear. He should hear. Indian man: But a blind person wants to see. What is milk, it will be complicated if we keep on teaching him it is white or something like that. We have to give eyes. And then he can see. Prabhupāda: Therefore eyes... What do you give? What you mean by giving eyes? Knowledge. Indian man: Knowledge. Prabhupāda: Now where you get the knowledge? Indian man: From the learned one. Prabhupāda: Yes. So who can be learned more than Kṛṣṇa? Indian man: To be honest about this whole thing as for memory level goes, I have forgotten the Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By the virtue of coming in contact with you realized people, we can also understand. Otherwise it's the gospel truth, written in scripture, holy men say we accept it. It's not our experience. Prabhupāda: No, it's not experience. Then there is no. If you do not accept one authority, then there is no answer of your question. Indian man: We have to accept. But realization is not there, as you holy men will say. Prabhupāda: We don't require realization. Realization will be had. Indian man: How to realize that? Prabhupāda: No, that is the way. The master will present the answer in such a way that the student will realize. That is master. Indian man: Then please, bestow your blessings on me, how to realize this. *Prabhupāda: Yes, you can be realized. Just like Kṛṣṇa, in the beginning of His teaching Bhagavad*-gītā, He says that... What is the verse? Girirāja: *Prabhupāda: So He answers because Arjuna was disturbed on this battlefield, that "How shall I fight with my relatives. I shall kill them. It is not my duty to kill my brothers or my nephews." He was perplexed. So the answer is given in a suitable way, that "You are thinking of killing the body of your brother. But your brother is not the body. And even if you think that your brother is being killed, so your brother, real, your brother, he will get another body." Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. This is the answer. This is self-realization. That "You are very much disturbed on the bodily concepts of life, but your brother is not this body. Even if you so-called killing of your brother, he will live." That is further explained. Next verse. Girirāja: Prabhupāda: So one can say that "Even though it is a fact that my brother is not this body, but still, I see that I am killing the body of my brother. That is painful. How can I kill my brother? That is very painful." So that is, answer is there, that this kind of pain will continue. This is on the body. It is not on the soul. That He's explaining. The point is one, that "Your brother, whom you are calling brother, that you mistakenly you are taking the body of your brother as your brother." So everything is explained. But the point is one. There cannot be many. The same point is being explained in so many varieties of ways. But the point is there. Indian man: The point is there only explained in different way. Prabhupāda: But that is not many ways. It is a kind of explanation. This is this. If you do not understand that this, this is this. The point is one, that your brother is not your brother's body. So there cannot be many answers. Answer is one. Indian man: Answer is one. Ways, as you have mentioned just now. Different ways. Prabhupāda: Not different ways. Different explanation. [break] So any question, any problem, it is solved not by the whims of the student, but it is solved by the expert master by explaining it very elaborately. Indian man: So the little knowledge I possess. In a classroom there are different types of students. One are sharp, certain are dull. Certain are absolutely dull. The degrees of understanding are different from student to student. Prabhupāda: No, no, that's alright. That is explanation. That is not different way. Indian man: A particular student, master has to teach him in that way. Prabhupāda: The answer is one. Indian man: Yes, that is true. *Prabhupāda: That the any person, any living entity, he is not this body. That is the answer. So then two things. Suppose you are, I am, that I am thinking of this body, and at the same time I am thinking that this finger, I say, "My finger." Nobody says, "I finger." "My finger." Even a child he will say. So "My finger, my head, my legs." So what is that "my"? That is the question. The answer is negatively that that "I" or "my" is not this body. That is different from the body. Now what is the nature of that "I"? That is explained one after another, one after another, one, one. Because he has no idea. Every one of us... I am speaking, you are speaking. Theoretically we take, accept it that I am not this body. But practically I say, "I am this body." That is wrong. That has to be explained. And that is being explained. The question is one and the answer is one. There cannot be many questions or many answers. Answer is one. That answer is, Kṛṣṇa begins, that "As the body is changing, within our experience..." dehino'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Very nice example. We are changing bodies. When you were born, there was no beard. Clean shaved or no hair. So that body has changed. It is not the same body. In which body you came out of the womb of your mother, that was a small body. That was a different body. This example given there. This body is changing during your experience of life. Similarly, after death the body will change, but you will continue. This is self-realization. It is not very difficult. The example is there. It doesn't take much time. The answer is one, and it is realized, say, within some minutes. So Bhagavad-gītā begins from self-realization, that "I am not this body." That is actual position, that if I understand that I am not this body, factually, then what I am, that I am something beyond this body. That is explained in so many different ways. So the center is this, that I am not this body. The answer is one. But I cannot answer, the master will not answer according to the whims of the student. Then he is not master. Because answer is one. Indian man: Then the question is, this is not the complete answer, that I am not the body. That is not... *Prabhupāda: Hm. Self*-realization that, that you are seeking what I am. Am I this body or something else? That is your inquiry. And the answer is that, "No, you are not this body." Indian man: But questions remain the same. *Prabhupāda: No, no, not... Then it is explained, how you are not this body. In the beginning He explains, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Just like you see the body has changed every daily, per minute, the body is changing, imperceptively. But try to understand that you were a child, now your body has changed in a different body. But you understand, you remember, that "I was a child." But the child body is no longer. So you remember or not remember, the body is changing. This is the answer. This is self*-realization. Indian man: I am the constant change, the process? Prabhupāda: You are not changing. Indian man: Body is changing. Prabhupāda: Body is changing. This is to be understood. Indian man: Then who am I? Question is still hanging. Prabhupāda: That will come next. The first question is this. Indian man: I am not body. Prabhupāda: That's all. That is sufficient. Indian man: Quite satisfying, I am not body. *Prabhupāda: That is self*-realization. Indian man: There is something when a person dies, something minus, this body remains useless. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you are not this body. Indian man: Yes, that means I am not the body, I am something beyond body. And what is that beyond body? Prabhupāda: That is explained in so many chapters. Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is explained, I am... That is... Kṛṣṇa says that the all these living entities... [break] ...that you are the same as God. Mamaivāṁśa. Aṁśa, part and parcel of the... So Indian man: That is the plight of everybody. Prabhupāda: Therefore you should accept the process how to control this restless mind, making different plans, different devices to become happy. That is your position. But this is not according to the ways of the questioner. "I believe in this way." The master will never say. How he can make his own way? He is ignorant. There cannot be, whimsically, as many students there are, as many ways are there. That is rascaldom. That is not. You have to accept the (indistinct). This is a very dangerous answer, that according to the student means, there are different ways of discerning self. *Indian man: That little knowledge I possess about Gītā starts with Third Chapter. With the knowledge made there, and Kṛṣṇa coming down to bhakti*-yoga step by step, karma-yoga, and saying everything, "This is the supreme, this is the supreme, this is the supreme." *Prabhupāda: Not supreme. He says this is of the person, different ways of thinking. But everywhere He is stressing bhakti. Just like generally people are karmī. Karmīs. They are working hard. And he has made his plan. He has made his plan that, "In this way, I shall be happy." So throughout the whole world, the beginning from animals, lower than the man, and then men, different types of men... So manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi, every one of them, he is planning or he is thinking in different ways. So the animals, they cannot understand the master's answer. But in the human being, they are according to the mind, mental concoction and planning, there are four classes of men. One class is called karmī. They are thinking that by working hard and trying to find out my own way of happiness, they will be happy. This is called karmī. Without any knowledge, they are simply working. They are actually like the animals. The animals, the dog, is jumping, a few miles he is jumping. He is thinking that "By jumping I shall be happy." Or for the time being he may happy by jumping. And sometimes thinking otherwise. So karmīs, they do not know what is the actual aim of life. Out of many millions of persons, mostly they are karmīs. They do not know what is the actual aim of life. But they are devising different plans, that I shall be happy in this way." This is called karmī. He does not take the standard way of happiness. Then the next elevated person is jñānī. He thinks, ponders, that "I have worked so hard, but still I could not become happy." The jñānī. He searches out philosophically. Then next class, yogi. Yogi concentrates the mind to think over, "What is my problem? Why I am not happy? How he can become happy?" He is trying to, very soberly, to understand. Yoga means controlling the senses, and the master of the senses is the mind. So he, trying to make the mind concentrated on the fact, he is yogi. And then the next stage is... If he is yogi, then there are different types of yoga system. But when he comes to the point that "I am not master. There is one master, controller. So master, whatever master orders, I have to execute that. That is my real happiness." Bhakta. So karmī, jñānī, yogi, and bhakta. So out of these four classes of men, the three classes means karmī, jñānī and yogi, they are restless. Because they actually did not find out what is the solution. One after another, there are different classes, there are classification. One is better than the other. That is another thing. But none of them... They are still misled. A karmī, he is thinking that "I am poor man. If I become rich man, I will be happy." He is thinking in that way. Jñānī is thinking that "Poor and rich doesn't matter. I am Brahman. I am spirit soul. If I merge into the Supreme Brahman I will be happy." Yogi is thinking that "The Absolute is present everywhere in His personal feature. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. So if I become one with Him, I will be happy." But still there is a demand, "If I become like this." So so long he is not self-realized, he will try to become something and so long he'll try to become something, then there will be restlessness. There cannot be happiness. And when he comes to the realization point that "Why I am trying to become something, I am this and this that is my position," then he becomes happy. That is bhakti. Everyone is trying to become something. And bhakta knows "I am this." There is no question of becoming. And this is my position. Very nice. Therefore Kṛṣṇa ultimately said that "This is the most confidential knowledge, Arjuna. I am teaching you so many things. There is no need of understanding so many things. The real thing is that I am the master, you are My servant. You surrender unto Me, that's all. Then you'll be happy." Indian man: Very bold step. Prabhupāda: There is no second answer. The answer is one. "Kṛṣṇa is master, I am servant." That's all. What is the duty? Just like here is a servant. Whatever you are ordering, he is doing. Indian man: The same answer is given to jñānī, yogi? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: They can understand the same way? They have to come up to bhakta. Prabhupāda: No, not same way. Because he is dull. Still wanting to become something. He is dull. There is no question of becoming. Just like they say ahaṁ brahmāsmi. You are already Brahman. But on account of your dullness of brain, you are thinking that "I am becoming Brahman." You are already Brahman. You are already Brahman. Because, if he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is Parabrahman. So Parabrahman part and parcel must be Brahman. How it can be otherwise? It is a question of, so long one does not understand that he is Brahman, he is trying to become Brahman. Indian man: Due to ignorance. Prabhupāda: Due to ignorance. So so long one wants to become Brahman, he is ignorant. Indian man: Knowledge is futile? Knowledge, it becomes futile then. Prabhupāda: Yes, because trying to become. There is no question of becoming. Indian man: To be innocent, to be ignorant is good then. *Prabhupāda: No. Therefore he should go to the master. Because he is ignorant, he must go to the master. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. But if you capture one, another person as master who is like me, then you are failure. Therefore we should accept the recognized master by everyone. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the master. Beginning from all sources. Vyāsadeva. Vyāsadeva is the original guru. So what Vyāsadeva has said about Kṛṣṇa. Then Vyāsadeva, later on Nārada Muni. And from Nārada Muni, Vyāsadeva. And from Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī. And Śukadeva Gosvāmī is describing about Kṛṣṇa. Then paramparā, from Śukadeva Gosvāmī, others, Sūta Gosvāmī, like that. The knowledge is the same. Kṛṣṇa says that "I spoke about this knowledge to the sun*-god. And he explained this knowledge to Manu." So in this way, apart from that, that I have not seen Manu I do not know. But when there is Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "That's a fact." So you understand from Arjuna what Arjuna said. Why should you go to somebody else? That is written record, how Arjuna understood. That is the way. Why should we go to a person who does not know? One who knows, we should go. Yes. This is a fact, that Arjuna understood it. Indian man: How to seek a master? How to find a master? *Prabhupāda: If you do not know how to seek a master, then how you can quote your so*-called rascal master? If you do not know the way. Indian man: Because there are so many fake masters. Prabhupāda: So why you should go to that fake master? If you do not know what is... Indian man: They prophesize, they call, they invite. The ignorant people go, they don't know what real master is. So they come... Prabhupāda: That much intelligence, we must have that intelligence, that who is master. Suppose if you want gold, if you do not know where gold can be purchased, then he is cheated. Indian man: That is what is happening. Prabhupāda: Yes. So why should you be cheated? At least you go to a shop where gold is purchased and sold. Why should you go to a pan wala. If you have no such knowledge then you will get. You must know at least that gold has to be purchased from a merchant who is dealing in gold. If you do not know that, then you will be cheated. Indian man: That becomes a problem, that people say that they are selling gold, but when you go to them, they are not selling gold. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not problem. Problem is you do not know. Indian man: Yes, that is accepted. Disciple doesn't know. *Prabhupāda: At least, you do not know where gold is purchased and sold. But others know. Otherwise, how they are transacting business, lakhs and crores in gold. He knows. (Hindi) There are many other persons who are dealing in gold. Therefore it is advised... The first is that I want to purchase gold. Śraddhā, this is called śraddhā. Ādau śraddhā. Then sādhu*-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. If you have to deal, you have to associate with persons. (aside:) I do not know exactly. For the present, we can go there. If I require, we can get up. (pause) At least, if you read Bhagavad-gītā to understand, and one is anxious to understand the need of spiritual life all over the world, So one should read Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Why he should interpret foolishly, spoiling the whole thing? Indian man: Still, if (indistinct) of Tilak and... Prabhupāda: Why, why should you read Tilak and Tilak and Tilak? Straight. Indian man: I don't know Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Then one who knows Sanskrit. You do not know. Indian man: (indistinct) ...somewhere in Chapter Five that if you do bad deeds (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But you do not know what is bad deeds is your disobedience to Kṛṣṇa is the most dangerous path. Indian man: He interpreted more what sort of deeds you cannot go back to the... *Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. That means he does not know what is good or bad. He does not know. Therefore he cannot become master. He cannot become master. The Bhagavad*-gītā is there and he is refuting Bhagavad-gītā. He is not master. Indian man: So he took the wrong interpretation of others, Kṛṣṇa has never said like this. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Find out this verse. Indian man: When the disciple is ready, the master comes. When the disciple is ready the master appears, comes, comes. It is not that the disciple has to search for the master. The master is also to search after the disciples. Prabhupāda: Well, it is just like there is a school. The school is also advertising that you come here, you will get education. And one who is in need of education, he is also trying to come to school. So the school must be bona fide and the student must be bona fide. Then things will come at. If the school is bogus, then what the student will learn? They will not learn. Girirāja: Dharmāviruddho bhūteṣu kāmo 'smi bharatarṣabha. Prabhupāda: Ah, that's it. What does that mean? Girirāja: "I am the strength of the strong, devoid of passion and desire. I am sex life which is not contrary to religious principles." Prabhupāda: There is good sex life and bad sex life. One who does not know what is good sex life, what is bad sex life, he's a rascal. Here you have to indulge in sex life which is not against the religious principles. But you must know what is religious and what is irreligious. If you do not know, you are rascal. There are two kinds of sex life. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says, "Sex life which is not against the religious principles, that I am." So God is good. So sex life which is not against the religious principles, that is good sex life. Otherwise, it is bad. Indian man: Where Kṛṣṇa comments... Prabhupāda: First of all let us understand this, that Kṛṣṇa says "Sex life which is not against the religious principles, that is I am." The sex life which is against the religious principles, that is bad. Indian man: Can you explain to me what is good sex life and bad sex life. Prabhupāda: Good sex life, when sex life is accepted for begetting good children. Just like in another place it is said pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt. One should not become a father, one should not become mother, unless he or she can save his child from death. This is religious sex life. Suppose you are married. There is sex life. And both you and your wife decide that "Unless I am expert to save my child from death, we shall not have sex life." This is good sex life. Indian man: It is negation of sex. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise sex life is there in the cats and dogs. If you are going to be a dog? You must act as a human being. This is to act as human being, that "I shall not become a father, my dear wife, you should not become a mother, if both of us are not expert how to save the death of our child." This is good sex life. If you are not expert to execute this scientific method, that is bad sex life. It is the dog's sex life. Indian man: Has anybody practiced this type of sex? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many. That is the Vedic civilization. Indian man: They have shielded a child from death. Prabhupāda: Yes, many, many. Indian man: An example. Prabhupāda: An example, that first of all you know how you can save the death. Indian man: I do not know. Prabhupāda: Ah, if you do not know that problem. (Prabhupāda is laughing) Indian man: That is the biggest problem. (laughing) Prabhupāda: That is. Indian man: The body comes, then the soul. But that part is, I don't... Prabhupāda: First of all, you have understood that unless you are capable of training your child not to die, you should not become a father. First of all, you have to accept this principle. Then how to save the child from death, that is next question. Let us go step by step. Your question was what is the good sex life, the answer is given here. Indian man: Answer is very complicated. *Prabhupāda: Not complicated. The answer is... But how to become expert to save the child from death, that is another science that you should know. If you want to stop your self... [break] ...no need of a child to whom you have to give your care to make him, to raise him in such a way, if there is no such need, then there is no need of sex life. If you enjoy sex life for sense enjoyment, that is atrocity. That is atrocity. That is Vedic civilization. Because before sex life we have got saṁskāras, garbhādhāna*-saṁskāra. The purpose is there, that "I shall train my child how to stop death. And the child must be so good that he will take my instruction." And therefore garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. So without garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, one who enjoys sex life, he is the most sinful. Not that "Whenever and wherever I like and with whomever I like I shall have sex life." It is all sinful activity. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says dharma aviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Sex life which is not against religious principles, that I am. So if we try to understand this one verse, we become self-realized. Similarly, each verse of Bhagavad-gītā is like that. Indian man: Such a supreme knowledge is there from our superior authorities. This knowledge is, we are not even able to follow. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Therefore people are coming out like cats and dogs. But here is Bhagavad*-gītā. If you are guided by Bhagavad-gītā, then it is all right. But this question, next question you'll say that "How I can save?" That is answered in Bhagavad-gītā. How you can save? Now you say. You tell me what is that verse. How you can save your child from death? Indian man: By realizing, by giving an education. Prabhupāda: No, you try to quote the verse, what is the way. Indian man: (laughing) I am a small fly before yourself. You are the ocean. I am a drop. Prabhupāda: No. You are not fly, you are experienced. Therefore I am trying to explain. Find out this verse. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Punar janma naiti. That is continuation of life. Tyaktvā, everyone has to give up this body. And one who gives up this body but does not accept another material body, he has no more birth and death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. You have to find out this. Read it. Girirāja: Prabhupāda: Very simple thing, that you are part and parcel of God. God is eternal. So if you understand God, then you become eternal. Just like your father is very rich man, but you have left your father. You are loitering in the street. But as soon as you understand your father, "Oh, I am the son of such and such person. He is so rich! Oh, I haven't got any necessity." Then you become rich. Go back home, back to Godhead. Mām eti. "He comes to Me." Someone is there. You must know your father, and you must go back to father. Then there is no question of suffering. Very simple thing. Now what is the purport? Girirāja: Purport. "The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the 6th verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage." Prabhupāda: Yes. He is already liberated. When one understands Kṛṣṇa properly. Then. Girirāja: "And therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body." Prabhupāda: That return to God is eternal. Suppose I am your guest here, so you may provide me for some days, but I cannot expect that you can provide me for all the days. That is my mistake. But if you go to your father's house, there is no question of. He takes. That is the required. Go to your father. Mām eti. Therefore this is the way of eternity, that you understand who is your father and you go back to Him. Then his life is successful. And who is the father? Indian man: (laughing) Not the body. *Prabhupāda: (laughing) Not body. It is in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Find out this verse. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ, tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. He is the father. Girirāja: *Prabhupāda: This is all very easy to understand. Mother means from whom the child is coming, is it not? That is mother. Everyone knows. So you see this whole world, wherefrom everything is coming, you see, practically, gross knowledge. I see a plant is coming from the earth. A tree is coming from the earth. And according to evolutionary theory... Not theory, fact. The dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. When his plant life is finished, he takes another body, insect life. So the mother is the earth. That's a fact. I am eating the things which are... Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. I am a life. I am taking either grain or I am taking flesh, the material is supplied from the earth. The animal also, he is also eating the grass. That is coming from the earth. The earth is the mother. That is a fact. Now we should be intelligent, that simply mother cannot beget a child. There must be father. So who is that father? The answer is here. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. So where is the ignorance? Indian man: This is Brahman. Prabhupāda: And again. Kṛṣṇa says aham, why do you interpret in different way. Indian man: Now this indication is... Prabhupāda: That means you make purposefully complicated. The father is saying, "I am father." Then why you are bringing this meaning, aham means... Indian man: No, it's that "aham" is indicated to Who? The physical posture of Kṛṣṇa which we know or the...? Prabhupāda: Why do we say like that? Why? (shouting) Why you are bringing physical concept He is a person, He is saying. Why do you say physical, material, and this and that way. He is father. Indian man: Because He is saying, we should accept it? Prabhupāda: Yes, you accept. Accept, Kṛṣṇa is in your front. And why should physical, metaphysical and chemical? Kṛṣṇa is a person. A person says... Indian man: Earth is mother... Prabhupāda: Yes. And He says that "Earth is mother, I am the father." You have to understand it. That yes, earth is mother, because everything is coming from earth. But who has given the seed in the mother? That Kṛṣṇa says, "I am giving." Sa asṛjata sa īkṣata. This is Vedic version. And He says personally. Indian man: As you say earth, mind accepts immediately. But... Prabhupāda: But if your mind cannot accept, your mind cannot accept, that does not mean the things will change. You should know that you are a fool. You do not know. Indian man: I accept. Prabhupāda: Yes, then as Kṛṣṇa says you accept it. How the father has given seed to this earth? That is not your business. You try to understand... Indian man: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Because you are trying to understand in your own way. Indian man: Trying to understand in my own way? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like you beget a child, you give seed. The seed of the child in the womb of your wife in a method, you know that. Therefore you are thinking, "How it is possible?" You do not know that God is almighty. He can beget children in His own way, but you are thinking in your own way, that "I give birth to a child in this way. How is that He is seed*-giving father and earth is producing?" Because you are thinking in your own way. Indian man: I have to think in my own way. Prabhupāda: Yes, but that is not God. God is almighty. Indian man: And now you are explaining that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you have to go to the right master. Indian man: They say in their own way. How you search out the right master. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So I am speaking on the basis of the Bhagavad*-gītā. I am not manufacturing. Indian man: True. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is master. Master means he will not manufacture. Lawyer means who will speak in the court with reference to the lawbook. Not that "My Lordship I have manufactured this way. You accept it." "Get out. Get out, rascal. You are not a lawyer." So this is going on. The rascals are going to be lawyer, without understanding. Indian man: No sir, the way you explain mother earth, similarly father's explain to me. Prabhupāda: Father He says. Because you have no advanced knowledge, how you can understand? The father says, "I am father." Indian man: So beautiful you explain mother. Similarly just let me understand father also. *Prabhupāda: No, no, beautifully, yes, everything is beautiful. We first know that without father, mother, there cannot be birth. So everything, whatever you, sarva*-bhūtāni, sarva-bhūtāni, whatever is coming out, they are coming out as child of the earth. And you do not know who is the father. The father says ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. You understand the father. How you do not understand? The father says, "I am the father." You are searching after the father, and father says, and mother certifies, "Yes, He is your father." You don't require any other knowledge. Indian man: This is fact. I am not understanding. Prabhupāda: It is a simple truth (indistinct). The father says, I am the father. Therefore what can be done? He says, the father says that "I am the father." Mother certifies, "Yes, he is your father." Still if you do not understand, what can be done? Indian man: You indicated very beautifully mother. I accept that. *Prabhupāda: Yes, this is also beautifully indicated. The father says personally, but you are so dull*-headed you cannot understand. Indian man: You say Lord Kṛṣṇa, but I must know what Kṛṣṇa is. Prabhupāda: Then it is very difficult to make you understand. Everyone knows what is Kṛṣṇa? Indian man: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Then you should learn it, what is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is said, anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa, he is liberated. Because you do not know, you are not liberated. Otherwise, as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa you become liberated. Indian man: It is plain fact. I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes. So try to understand Kṛṣṇa from the right source. Otherwise, you will remain a rascal. That's all. That is your first business, to understand Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa is explained in so many śāstras. If I am so rascal that still I cannot understand, that is my misfortune. Indian man: Simply misfortune. Prabhupāda: If I want to come to point of misfortune, that is my disease. Otherwise, we can understand little, Kṛṣṇa is explaining. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, Indian man: I am a seeker; I want to know. Prabhupāda: Therefore I am taking this trouble. Otherwise, I have no business. Indian man: I want to know Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. If you want to know, then there is way. And as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa, you are liberated. Indian man: This is the first step to know Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. And that Kṛṣṇa is explaining. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself. There is no difficulty to understand Kṛṣṇa. Suppose you have no knowledge about me, what is Swamiji. You may speculate, "Swamiji may be such and such, such and such." But if I explain myself, that "I am like this," then where is the difficulty? You haven't got to speculate. Because I am explaining. So you take that. You understand Kṛṣṇa. Why speculation? Indian man: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, there is no need of speculation. Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself. You take the advantage of Kṛṣṇa's explanation. You understand Kṛṣṇa. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. I am explaining my position. You have to understand as I am explaining. You cannot explain me. That is not possible. There are so many secrets, I do not dis..., if I do not disclose, how you can explain it? Indian man: Very simple, the way you related mother's. My mind could immediately accept it. But at the point of father's it stopped. Prabhupāda: Because you are thinking to become father in a particular way. You do not accept... Indian man: Mother also in particular way... Prabhupāda: That means you are thinking in your own particular way. But Kṛṣṇa is not subjected to your thinking. You have to give up this bad habit first of all, that Kṛṣṇa will be subordinate to your thinking. That is not God. Indian man: How to give up this bad habit? Prabhupāda: That means you have to become a bhakta. So long... You are thinking as jñānī. Therefore... Jñānī cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Only the bhakta can understand. Indian man: Because he thinks in other ways. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore he cannot understand. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja*-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi, jānāti tattvam [SB 10.14.29]. One who is fully surrendered... Not fully, even little surrendered, he can understand. (bell rings) Otherwise, ciraṁ vicinvan. He can speculate for long, long years, for long long years. Still he cannot. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi, jānāti tattvam. He can understand. Na ca anya eko 'pi ciraṁ vicinvan. Others, even one of them, simply by speculating they cannot understand. Indian man: To find śraddhā, or faith to surrender. To surrender, one must have something to surrender to. What is that? Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is explaining about Himself. So many pages. At last He says, "Surrender to Me." He is not asking him to surrender all of a sudden. He is explaining all the ways. "You think over," He has explained. Then He says "The most confidential knowledge, Arjuna I am giving to you, because you are my very dear friend, that you simply surrender. That's all." Indian man: Simply surrender. *Prabhupāda: That's all. Find out this verse. Sarva*-guhyatamam. 18th chapter, 63 verse or 62nd verse. Girirāja: Prabhupāda: "Because you are My dear friend, I want for your good. So I am now disclosing the most confidential knowledge." What is that verse? Girirāja: *Prabhupāda: "You simply take this process. Think of Me always." And the next, He says sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. No. There are other processes? Give away, kick away. Take this. Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is meanings of the... But because one cannot understand, therefore He has explained karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, haṭha-yoga, this yoga. And He has explained also the meaning Prabhupāda: ...to make dāl puri, dāl baḍi. Do they make? Inside it is dāl. [break] Life Member: When I come here for one day, I wish to stay here for three days, five days, seven days, I mean, always extend it for awhile. It is never on the set day. Whenever I come for a day, I stay two days. If I come for three days I stay about five days. [break] Prabhupāda: Dāl can be replaced with boiled potato. Life Member: Boiled potatoes, yes, they are made. That is puri or paraṭā? Paraṭā is better. Ālu paraṭā. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Make Punjabi paraṭā. Life Member: You will like that. Prabhupāda: All right. And another thing, and sabji, dry potato with hing. What vegetables other? There is cauliflower. There is no eggplant? Beguna? I require little. Hari-śauri: What about paṭolas? Prabhupāda: Paṭola is nice. Indian man: We should make something of eggplant. Prabhupāda: Eggplant vegetable, yes. Fried. (end) *Room Conversationwith Life Member, Mr. Malhotra-*-December 22, 1976, Poona Prabhupāda: Because you cannot do like this. Kṛṣṇa says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "Nobody is superior than Me." That is Kṛṣṇa. Are you able to become superior of everyone? Mr. Malhotra: That is so, but how is that creator. His own creation went against and Kṛṣṇa became after His creation to worship and become devotees of superior... Prabhupāda: (Hindi) For this reason Kṛṣṇa says janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. One who knows what are the activities of Kṛṣṇa he is liberated. So Mr. Malhotra: Why this trying to understand Kṛṣṇa? Why not try to understand one's self? Kṛṣṇa passed 5000 years ago. Now ashes are there in our hands. Why not... Prabhupāda: That means you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is... Why Kṛṣṇa? You are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. You are nitya, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. So you are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, you are nitya. Why do you say Kṛṣṇa existed 5000 years ago? He is existing always. Mr. Malhotra: Always existing there. (indistinct) Within you, within oneself. Prabhupāda: No no. You are also nitya, but you are part and parcel of that nitya. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God is nitya, you are also nitya, God is also living, you are also living. What is the difference between the two? That one person He is maintaining all of us. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. So this is knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. God is one. I am also individual. But we are many because we are all living entities. But God is one. We are controlled by God or God's nature. We are not one. Mr. Malhotra: Aren't we the images of God? Prabhupāda: Apart from images... That is another thing. That we shall describe later on. First of all you cannot claim that you are God because you are under the control of material nature. Mr. Malhotra: You said part and parcel of God. Prabhupāda: Part and parcel, just like the finger is part and parcel of my body, but it is not the whole body. Mr. Malhotra: It is the body. Prabhupāda: It is body, you can say that, but part of it. Mr. Malhotra: Part of my body. All enjoined together, it makes the whole body. If it is separated... Prabhupāda: That's all right. But still you say it is aṅguli [finger]. It is not the body. Mr. Malhotra: Aṅguli. (Laughs) It is one part, to say many. *Prabhupāda: No. You should be, should be senses. Just like this aṅguli, I am asking, "Do like this." It is my servant. After all, it is part of the body, it is my servant. If it cannot serve my body then it is diseased. Similarly we are part and parcel of God. If we cannot serve God, that is our diseased condition. The same example. This finger is part and parcel of my body. But I ask finger, "Please come here, to my nostrils." If it cannot do, then it is diseased. It is not in normal condition. So anyone who does not serve the whole, part and whole, he is diseased. He is not in normal condition. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇera dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. Therefore because we have forgotten this relationship with God, declared ourself as God, that is diseased condition. Therefore God comes and He orders, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. "Surrender unto Me. Don't talk nonsense." That is God. So when we agree, that is our perfection. Not to artificially become God, but to agree to serve God. That is liberation. Mr. Malhotra: So what if the drop submerges in ocean, then the identity of drop vanishes. Prabhupāda: No. Mr. Malhotra: Drop, when drop submerges with the ocean... *Prabhupāda: I will give you practical example. Just like you take red water, colored water. So put into the sea, does this mean that sea becomes red? That little spot may be for the time being. Besides that, merging, this is the philosophy of the Māyāvādīs. Actually that is superficial. Just like a bird, green bird, enters into the green tree. You see that bird is vanished. Because the tree is green and the bird is green, you do not know the separate identification. But the bird is there, separate identification. It is not the bird has become zero. A airplane goes to the sky, after some time you don't find the airplane. That doesn't mean the airplane has no more identity, separate. It is separate. It is your defective eyes that you cannot see, that it has got separate existence. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that, "I, you and all these kings who are assembled here, we existed in the past, we are now existing, and we shall exist in the future." That means individual existence will continue. He explains past, present and future. So where is imagination? Mr. Malhotra: No imagination. But paraṁ pada that is nirvāṇa, or whatever... Prabhupāda: Yes, paraṁ pada is just like you fly in the sky, go very high. So from here we cannot see that you are separately existing. But you are separately existing. It is my deficient eyes that I see that you are not separate. (?) Mr. Malhotra: Identification will remain always? *Prabhupāda: Always. Therefore it is said in the śāstra, āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ anādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ [SB 10.2.32], ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninaḥ... It is said, "My Lord, the lotus-eyed, vimukta-mānina, if somebody artificially is thinking that he has become liberated or merged into the existence, āruhya kṛcchreṇa, for which he has undergone very severe tapasya," āruhya kṛcchreṇa... Kṛcchreṇa means with great difficulty. Paraṁ padam, brahmajyoti, patanti adhaḥ, "again he falls down," anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ... Just like these rascals that are going in the sky to find out a place in the Mars and in the Moon. And why they are coming back? If actually one has gone, then why he's coming back? Mr. Malhotra: To tells to others that they saw something. *Prabhupāda: That's it. Similarly you will find the so*-called sannyāsīs, not bhaktas, they undergo severe austerities, penances, but after some time they come to the worldly atmosphere. Because they could not get any place, therefore they come down. Just like the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs they say that this duniyā, [world] jagat mithyā. If jagat is mithyā, you have left it, then why you come again to give some philanthropic service? If it is mithyā, then why you come again after so much? Is it not nonsense? If jagat is mithyā why you are coming again to this mithyā? That means you could not get place in the satya. Therefore you come down again. That is stated in the śāstra. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam [SB 10.2.32]. Although with severe austerities and penances (he) might go to the paraṁ pada, patanty adhaḥ, anādṛta-yuṣmad, because he could not get shelter at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, he falls down. He must fall down to the material activities. Patanty adhaḥ. That is adho patha. As soon as a person, after undergoing severe austerities, becomes very highly elevated in the sannyāsa stage, but if he cannot get shelter at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then surely he shall fall down for these material activities, material enjoyment. That is the sign that he's fallen down. Mr. Malhotra: Lord Kṛṣṇa we have to see in a personal way, have to see the entirety as the... Prabhupāda: Lord Kṛṣṇa is everything. Mr. Malhotra: Nirākāra. *Prabhupāda: Why nirākāra? He says "aham," every sentence in the Bhagavad*-gītā, He says "aham." So how He is nirākāra? Just like you, you are a person. When you say "I, I can do this," that is a person. Mr. Malhotra: Because I have no other alternative but to communicate. I can communicate only, I and you. There is no other way. Prabhupāda: No other way, therefore you are deficient. You cannot claim that you are God. Because you have no other way. You are forced by something. So somebody is controller upon you. Therefore you are different from the God. As you say, "I have no other way," that means you are dependent (on) something else. Mr. Malhotra: But God can communicate differently? *Prabhupāda: Therefore God and you are different. That is dvaita*-vāda. You are different... Mr. Malhotra: Why at all this started? Why at all, say millions, trillions years back, how it started that God created this world? Then all are one and different. Prabhupāda: Who created? Mr. Malhotra: God. Prabhupāda: So God is there. So God, you are created or you are subordinate to God? You are also there. So nitya, you are also existing eternally, and God is also eternally existing. But the difference between you and God is that God is maintaining everything and you are being maintained. That is the difference. You are one of the items which is maintained by God. Mr. Malhotra: As long as I continue my identity that "I am so and so, I am this body," or "I am a person, or ātmā seated in this body, or dwelling in this body," when I dislodge my body from ātmā, then what is the position? *Prabhupāda: You are different from the body. You are different from the body. You are soul. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. The body is temporary, you are eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. You are nityaḥ śāśvata. You are never killed even after the destruction of the body. That should... That is real understanding, that I am not this body. After annihilation of this body, I shall continue. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. You should know that you are eternal part and parcel of God. God is eternal. Just like gold and a small particle of gold, both of them are gold. A small particle of gold, it is also gold, but not equal to the gold mine. That is real understanding. And because you are little gold... Mr. Malhotra: But potentiality? Prabhupāda: Potential different, because a lump of gold and a small particle of gold, the value is not the same. Gold it is quality, but not the value the same. That you cannot say. Mr. Malhotra: Qualitative it is gold, but... *Prabhupāda: But quantity it is different. God is all*-pervading. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. God is all-pervading, He is in everyone's heart. Can you live in everyone's heart? Can you know what I am thinking? Then how you can become God? Mr. Malhotra: Well there are... Prabhupāda: There are fools, rascals. There are others. (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: But there are certain people who say that... *Prabhupāda: No, who says, they are rascals. They are rascals. We take them as rascals, that's all. How you can say that you are all*-pervading? Can you say that? Even if you are very highly elevated, can you say what I am thinking? Then how do you claim God? God is all-pervading. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata [Bg. 13.3]. You have read Bhagavad-gītā. There are two kṣetras-jñas. One kṣetra-jña, just like I am, you are. They are kṣetra-jña. I know about my pains and pleasures of my body. You know. But I do not know what is pains and pleasure of your body. You do not know what is pains and pleasure of my body. Therefore there is difference. But God knows. That is the difference between you and God. How you claim God? You do not know what is the pains and pleasures of my body. You know the pains and pleasure of your body. I know the pains and pleasure of my body. But either you or me, we do not know the pains and pleasures of all bodies. And Kṛṣṇa says kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. He knows everyone's pains and pleasure. That is the difference between you and Him. Mr. Malhotra: But this is all right. As long as I maintain my identity... Prabhupāda: You have to... If you foolishly think that you have become one, that is your foolishness. Yes. That is foolish thinking. Mr. Malhotra: If I submerge myself with the entire... Prabhupāda: Merge means you do not disagree. That is merge. Do not disagree. Just like when Arjuna was disagreeing, that is his condition, that is his conditioned identity, and when he agreed, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73],"that is identity of oneness. Mr. Malhotra: Surrender. Prabhupāda: Surrender, that is oneness. Not that individually he has become different. Individually he is, but he does not disagree with Kṛṣṇa. That is oneness. Just like we are sitting, we are of different interests. But so far my disciples are, they will not disagree with me. That is oneness. But he is individual. He was individual, he is individual and he will continue his individuality. But as soon as he accepts me as the leader, then he is agreement. That is oneness. Mr. Malhotra: Agreement with God is surrender. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. To serve Kṛṣṇa favorably, that is oneness. That is oneness. *Mr. Malhotra: This is bhakti*-yoga. Prabhupāda: Any yoga. You are individual, God is individual. That is already explained, I told you. God says, Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, "Me, yourself and all these people who have gathered, they are all individuals. They were individuals in the past, they are individuals now, and we shall continue to remain individuals in the future." Mr. Malhotra: Even if we surrender. Prabhupāda: Surrender means agreement. Mr. Malhotra: Agreement. Individuality will all along exist. Prabhupāda: Otherwise why is he asking, "You surrender," unless there is individuality? Why this request is there? Because you are individual, you can deny it. That individuality continues. But if you have love for God, then you agree, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73]." So that is wanted. Not that he lost his individuality. Individuality is there. Mr. Malhotra: Individuality remains. It seems so, that the individuality remains. *Prabhupāda: And this is the fact, Kṛṣṇa says. What Kṛṣṇa says you have to accept. Otherwise, what is the use of reading Bhagavad*-gītā? You cannot accept Bhagavad-gītā through your whims. That is nonsense. You must accept as it is. That is wanted. Mr. Malhotra: This Satya Sai Baba, he is also disciple of Kṛṣṇa. How he produces...? Prabhupāda: Then if he is disciple of Kṛṣṇa, he would not have foolishly said that he is Bhagavān. That means he is bogus. It is bogus... You cannot say... You are disciple... Just like they are my disciples. They will never say that they are equal to me. They will never say. Mr. Malhotra: No, no, but what power he has got to produce just now...? Prabhupāda: That anyone can do, magic, jugglery. It has no meaning. Mr. Malhotra: He got you know this money. Prabhupāda: Oh, he can get anything, but that is... Magic. That is... Magician also knows. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Professor Sarkar, a big magician, he kills, cuts people's body, then he joins them. Prabhupāda: So many things. Magic jugglery is... Mr. Malhotra: But there are some siddhis also. These siddhi, siddhis. Prabhupāda: That is siddhi, magic also siddhi. You are successful businessman, that is also siddhi. That is also siddhi. Yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]. Even one is siddha, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. That is said, yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]. Even one is siddha, still he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: But if he goes to āśrama, where and everybody sits there, the big Kṛṣṇa statue is there. In his room personal room Kṛṣṇa statue... Prabhupāda: If he is at all devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he will never say that he is Bhagavān. That is foolishness. That very assertion is foolishness. Mr. Malhotra: But Bhagavān, they don't call them Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: That they write in the books. They don't call, but write in the books. Hari-śauri: There was one article in the Blitz where they quoted him saying, God is man and man is God. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He said he is the incarnation for this age. Prabhupāda: And where is the evidence? Anyone can say, "I am incarnation." (laughter) Any rascal can say. Mr. Malhotra: Anyone can say. (laughing) Prabhupāda: What is the proof? Just like this Ramakrishna, he was an illiterate priest, and at the time of his death he said to Vivekananda, that I am Kṛṣṇa, I am Lord Rāma, and he accepted. He accepted. (Hindi conversation) Let him create one motorcar. Why he's asking, "Please sir, give me car." That's all. He is such a great man; *bogus. People are foolish persons, they are deviated by these bogus rascals. That is going on. (Hindi conversation) Ṣaḍ*-aiśvarya-pūrṇam. (Hindi conversation) Mr. Malhotra: Then he is servant, always servant? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nityānām, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ... (Hindi) Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. (Hindi) That is his foolishness. And foolish person will accept. Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. Therefore He shall remain the Supreme always. We have to refer to the Vedic śāstras. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. This is description of Bhagavān. That He has nothing to do, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. (Hindi) (Explains in Hindi that Kṛṣṇa does not need or show any magic, when He was just a child He killed Pūtanā. Not that by meditation He became God. Bhagavān is always Bhagavān.) Either he is three months old or three years old or three hundred years old. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate, nobody can be equal or greater than Him. If someone is equal to Him then how He is Bhagavān? Mr. Malhotra: How it can be that so many sages of the past, they proclaimed ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Prabhupāda: Brahman (Hindi). You are Brahman. Because you are part and parcel of Parabrahman. That I have already told you. That gold, big gold and small particle, that is gold. Similarly, Bhagavān Parabrahman, and we are part and parcel of Him. Therefore I am Brahman. But I am not Parabrahman. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as Parabrahman by Arjuna: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. Parabrahman. So param, this word is used, Paramātmā, Parabrahman, Parameśvara. Why? That is the difference. One is supreme and one is subordinate. Subordinate Brahman. You are Brahman, there is no doubt of it. But not that Parabrahman. If you are Parabrahman, then why you are making sādhana to become Parabrahman? Why? If you are Parabrahman, then you are Parabrahman always. Why you have fallen in this condition that you have to perform sādhana to become Parabrahman? That is foolishness. You are not Parabrahman. You are Brahman. You are gold, a small particle. But you cannot say that "I am gold mine." That you cannot do. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So he is checking if it is time to go on... Are you going to come with us also? Very good. Prabhupāda: Bring little water. These, my disciples they are part and parcel of me. Whole mission is going on with their cooperation. But if he says that I am equal to my Guru Mahārāja, then that is offense. Mr. Malhotra: Suppose guru desires that my disciple should rise higher than me. Prabhupāda: That means he is in lower stage. That you have to accept first of all. Mr. Malhotra: Like as a father sees that his children grow. Prabhupāda: Yes, still father begets father, and a child cannot become father. Mr. Malhotra: Father begets father but he feels that he may, will progress... Prabhupāda: No, no. Father may want to see that the son is equally qualified, but still the father is father, and child is child. That is perpetual. Similarly, a part and parcel of God may be very powerful, but that does not mean that he has become God. Mr. Malhotra: Other traditions, guru disciple, then the disciple becomes guru, then disciple. The gurus may change. Prabhupāda: They cannot change. If there are change of guru, the disciple acts, but does not, he'll never say that I have become equal or one with guru. That is not so. Mr. Malhotra: I am thinking about this, Swamiji, that your Guru Mahārāja is preaching through you, and you are preaching through them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: So disciple is guru through his disciples. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. But that does not become, he has become. He may be representative of guru, representative of God, but it does not mean that he has become God. Mr. Malhotra: But he becomes guru with his disciples. Prabhupāda: That's alright. Mr. Malhotra: Never equal to his guru. Prabhupāda: Not equal, representative. I send one representative of this man, and he may be very expert, doing very good business, still he cannot be equal to me. He is acting as my representative, that's another thing. But not that he has become the original proprietor. Mr. Malhotra: But as your disciples, you are taken as guru. Prabhupāda: But they will never say that they have become equal to me. "I have advanced to be my guru." Never say. Just like this boy, he is offering obeisances. He may be expert in preaching more than me, but he knows that "I am subordinate." Otherwise how he shall offer obeisances? He can think, "Oh, now I am so learned. I am so advanced. Why shall I accept him as superior?" No. That continues. Even after my death, after my disappearance, he will offer obeisances to my picture. Mr. Malhotra: But amongst his disciples he will be worshiped... Prabhupāda: That's all right, but he remains a disciple of his guru. He will never say that "Now I have become guru, so I don't care for my guru." He will never say. Just like I am doing, but I am worshiping my guru still. So I remain subordinate to my guru, always. Even though I have become guru, still I am subordinate to my guru. Mr. Malhotra: But qualitatively... Prabhupāda: Qualitatively equal I have already said. Not quantitatively. Mr. Malhotra: Qualitatively we are one. Quantitatively. Prabhupāda: Why? Do you think a grain of gold and a big gold lump is same? Mr. Malhotra: Gold, I think I am also gold. Prabhupāda: No, gold that is accepted, quality. That if you say, this is explanation. You must have brain to understand. That a small particle of gold and a big gold, they are gold in quality but the big gold is millions of dollars and a small particle is few dollars. Just see this is accepted. This Māyāvāda theory has made people atheists, that "I am God, I am equal to God." Very bad theory. Mr. Malhotra: From where these things also come? From where it comes? *Prabhupāda: From the Vedas. Vedas says, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate, Upaniṣads. Na tat*-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. *Mr. Malhotra: Who gives this asura*-buddhi? From where this filth grows? *Prabhupāda: Asura*-buddhi and sura-buddhi. Due to our little independence. Just like we are talking. So we do not agree. Therefore we are talking. So one of us may be asura and one may be sura. Therefore we do not agree. Otherwise, there is no use of talking. So that is natural. That is the conditioned stage. Because we are conditioned by the material nature, some of us are asuras and some of them suras. Dvau bhūta-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca [Bg. 16.6]. There are two kinds of men. Daiva, devatā and asura. Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ smṛto daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ. Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are devatā, and just opposite number is asura. Who does not recognize the authority of God, he is asura. He himself becomes God foolishly. That is not God. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā. This, about the sun, description in the Brahma-saṁhitā. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ, unlimited potency, energy, heating energy. Such a powerful planet. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. Still it is carrying out the order of somebody. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. I offer my obeisances to Govinda. But if I say I am equal to Govinda, I can stop sun. "Don't bother me by heating. Stop." Will it become...? Then how I become all-powerful? Let me stop the activities of the sun. Or at night there is no sun, can I ask the sun, "Get up, I want light immediately," is it possible? Then how I become the God? Nobody cares for my order. Mr. Malhotra: They say those who know their bhāgavata, they call themselves Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: That anyone can say that I know my Bhagavān, nobody knows. I am Bhagavān but nobody cares for me. What kind of Bhagavān? It is rascal Bhagavān. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When Bhagavān has a toothache he goes to the dentist. Prabhupāda: Yes, when there's a toothache he goes to the doctor. These kind of nonsense has to be stopped. Otherwise people become atheists. "Anyone can become God, anyone can become Bhagavān." Mr. Malhotra: This Rajneesh I tell you, he has... Prabhupāda: I don't say about Rajneesh because I have no acquaintance with him, but anyone says that he is Bhagavān, he can do anything. Mr. Malhotra: Somebody asked him, "Why you claim to be God or Bhagavān?" He clarified that "It is not the creator or the the equal Bhagavān. I know by, I have realized by... Prabhupāda: But God says I am the creator of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. This is Bhagavān. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can go, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. We will go to the car. (Śrīla Prabhupāda goes out) [break] (in car:) Prabhupāda: ...to the sun planet, beginning is the sunshine. Mr. Malhotra: Yes, beginning in the sunshine. *Prabhupāda: Similarly to go to the Absolute Truth, you begin with impersonal Brahman. Just as sunshine is impersonal, but everyone can see the sunshine is coming from the sun surface. Everyone knows that. Therefore the sunshine is not so important as the sunglobe. Similarly brahma-tattva-nirviśeṣa, nirākāra-brahma is there, but more important than is the localized aspect. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna [Bg. 18.61], God is all-pervading. The sunshine is all-pervading, and as Paramātmā He is also all-pervading. But if you can enter into the sunglobe, you will meet with the sun god. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. "I spoke this philosophy to the sun-god." So there is sun-god. Sun*-god and the sun globe and the sunshine, they are one. But different stages of understanding. Similarly, Brahman understanding, Paramātmā understanding, then the Supreme Personality of Godhead understanding. Advaya-jñāna. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. But if you stop simply in the sunshine, that means you have no knowledge of the sun god or the sun globe. If you have simply knowledge of the sun globe, then you are not aware of what is the sun-god. But if you know sun-god, then you know what is sun globe and the sunshine. That is wanted. That is perfect knowledge. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. When, after many many births, when one is actually in knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. When one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, understanding that Kṛṣṇa is everything, that mahātmā is sudurlabha, very rare. Somebody knows only impersonal Brahman, the jñānīs. Somebody knows the Paramātmā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe [Bg. 18.61]. And one who knows Kṛṣṇa he is perfect. [break] ...this stage of understanding Kṛṣṇa, your knowledge is imperfect. [break] ...śāstras, but unfortunately we do not refer to the authority of the śāstras. We manufacture our own way. Mr. Malhotra: No actually what has happened is that there has been too many interpretations. Prabhupāda: There cannot be interpretations. Mr. Malhotra: No, there are certain people... Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Mr. Malhotra: That is what I said, huh. So there are so many interpretations that you get confused. Because of the same thing, some interpret it a different way. *Prabhupāda: One thing is that you have to become intelligent. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. Now why I shall accept interpretation on these plain words? That is my foolishness. If somebody says dharma-kṣetra means this body and Pāṇḍava means the five senses, why this nonsense interpretation? If you are not intelligent, then you will accept such rascals interpreting unnecessarily. Interpretation is required when things are not very clear. But when the things are clear, why you should accept interpretation? That is my foolishness. There is no need of interpretation. [break] ...is it still there? Why, if the rascal interprets Kurukṣetra means this body, why shall I accept it? Kurukṣetra is still there. There is no difficulty to understand. And if somebody interprets... [break] ...interpretation, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that as soon as you interpret, the whole thing is lost. So why shall I be so foolish, I shall accept something which is lost. Mr. Malhotra: No. Rather Kṛṣṇa had His own interpretation. Prabhupāda: That may be but why shall I accept? Mr. Malhotra: ...had his own interpretation rather. All the people who show... *Prabhupāda: You have, interpretation, you have to refer to the Bhagavad*-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā says as soon as you accept interpretation it is lost. Mr. Malhotra: Then the meaning is lost. *Prabhupāda: Bas. So under the circumstances... That means I am also foolish. Any rascal gives any interpretation*-I accept. That is my foolishness. So why should I become foolish? Radhakrishnan may be very big man, but if he does something wrong, he will be hanged. *Mr. Malhotra: No, he, ślokas are there. All the Bhagavad*-gītā ślokas are there. Prabhupāda: But I must have intelligence that why this rascal is interpreting in a different way. Mr. Malhotra: And Sanskrit is the language. So it has got the same... *Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not very difficult. Just like in the Ninth Chapter, Kṛṣṇa says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. And Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Why? Kṛṣṇa says, "Just think*-of Me, man-manāḥ, just become My devotee, and just offer Me obeisances, worship Me." It is plain language. And if some rascal says, "No no, it is not to Kṛṣṇa," why shall I accept it? Mr. Malhotra: It is not the personified Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: You have read it? Mr. Malhotra: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, you see. I shall immediately detect that here is a rascal. Because Kṛṣṇa says personally, and he says it is not to the person. Just see. Mr. Malhotra: But Kṛṣṇa had been on this earth in flesh and bones. Prabhupāda: That is history, *Mahābhārata*. And all the ācāryas, they have accepted, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka. Svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me. Arjuna accepts Him, Paraṁbrahman. You are Paraṁbrahman. Not that "Because I am your friend and I am accepting You as Paraṁbrahman, but all the ācāryas they have accepted." [break] ...mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam. Because I am talking with you as a human being, only rascals, they think I am human being." If you think Kṛṣṇa as having flesh and bone, then you become a rascal, immediately. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ [Bg. 9.11], "I am not made of this bone and flesh. I am cinmaya, I am fully spirit soul." So one who does not know it, he is a rascal. So as soon as you will say that He is made of bone and flesh, that means you are rascal. (laughter) Why shall I hear you? Mr. Malhotra: When Lord Kṛṣṇa came into being, I mean... Prabhupāda: That does not mean that... Suppose I am here. I am driving with you. But there is difference between you and me. So Kṛṣṇa comes as human being, that does not mean He is human being. Why don't you understand this? Mr. Malhotra: That is okay. But from the normal, you know... Prabhupāda: That is your study. That is foolish study. Therefore He says avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. The rascals think that I am one of the human beings. If he is one of the human beings, how he can say mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. In the human society, there are big men, you are big man, I am small man, he is still more, he is still more, he is still bigger. There are so many varieties. But He says "No more superior than Me." That is God. Mr. Malhotra: No one is supreme than Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: That He says, of course. Prabhupāda: He says everything but because we are foolish we do not hear Him. That is the difficulty. Mr. Malhotra: We don't understand Him. Prabhupāda: No, we understand. But we do not accept it. What is the difficulty to understand? God is superior. Everyone knows it. But I will not accept, he will not accept. Unless one is superior, how He can be God? [break] ...sevayā. Therefore you have to find out somebody who knows Him. Otherwise you will be in darkness. [break] *Mr. Malhotra: (Hindi) Over bridge. But where we are going, Ambleswar (?), from there Kṛṣṇā*-nadī starts. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Kṛṣṇā*-nadī is for us. Mr. Malhotra: From Ambleswar. Then there is old, old mandira, very old mandira, temple, there are five nadīs are coming. Prabhupāda: Oh, Kaumuda, Kāverī... Mr. Malhotra: Kṛṣṇā, Kāverī, Veṇā, five rivers flow from there. We will go there, tomorrow morning we'll go. [break] Prabhupāda: ...just now. In the morning it was little cold. Now it is very pleasing. Mr. Malhotra: It is. But since you have been going all over Europe and you must be accustomed to cold, it is severe cold. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I was going to morning walk when there was snow fall. I was walking on snow. Mr. Malhotra: Actually when snow falls it is not very cold but when there is breeze, then it is very unbearable. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. [break] Mr. Malhotra: ...the first month, I think, except April and May, all the rest months. Prabhupāda: All the year. Mr. Malhotra: May is quite hot and April, middle of April to May. Then in June rain starts. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...legislation that fifty percent of revenues was spent in military. Bhaya*-vitta. (?) [break] Mr. Malhotra: Tad guru vijñāta... Prabhupāda: Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. *Mr. Malhotra: Guru*-vijñāna. *Prabhupāda: No. This is Vedic injunction. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Abhigacchet, this word is used. This means must, vidhilin.(?) This is the form of vidhilin, in grammar. Vidhilin is applied when there is no question of duality. You must. If you want to know that transcendental science, you must approach guru. Śrotriyaṁ brahma*-niṣṭham. And who is guru? Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam. Śrotriyam means one who is guru by hearing from his guru, śrotriyam. This is paramparā. Not that all of a sudden he becomes guru. No. That is not guru. Guru means śrotriyam. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. And after hearing perfectly from his guru, he is brahma-niṣṭham. Just like Arjuna, after hearing from Kṛṣṇa, his guru, he became devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Not became. He was devotee. Still he became perfect devotee. Brahma-niṣṭham. This is the guru's qualification. And in another, the Bhāgavata it is said tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. One must surrender to guru who is actually inquisitive, yes, about the Absolute Truth. What kind of inquisitive? Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. The best aim of life or transcendental aim of life, he requires guru. Then what is guru's qualification? The next line is tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam, śābde pare ca niṣṇātam [SB 11.3.21]. Guru is completely in awareness of all the Vedic knowledge. That is guru. Not a loafer class. (laughter) Śrotriyam. One who has heard perfectly Vedas from his guru. And what is the symptom that he has heard from the authority or the...? Brahma-niṣṭham. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. The symptom is that he has completely taken shelter of the Supreme Brahman, rejecting or finishing all material desires. No more material desires. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. He has taken shelter of Brahman, upaśama, rejecting, no more hankering after anything material. Mr. Malhotra: No more hankering. But he has to eat he has to clothe. Mr. Malhotra: Minimum needs of the body. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not hankering. That is not hankering. so long the body is there. That is wanted. Just like about the Gosvāmīs it is said, nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau **. One has to conquer over sleeping, eating, sex and fearing. A saintly person has no fearing. Because he depends on Kṛṣṇa. But these things particularly conquered over. Simply little eating, that's all. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi. At least trying to conquer over sleeping, eating and sex life. Mr. Malhotra: Sleeping, eating and sex. [break] ...sleeping at all or some little sleep. Prabhupāda: Practically no sleeping. Practically no eating and no sex life. Mr. Malhotra: Sleeping means, actually sleeping or awareness, I mean awakening of the mind or awakening... Prabhupāda: No, actual sleeping. Sleeping means waste of time. So long you sleep, it is a waste of time. Better reduce sleep. Mr. Malhotra: But you have to sleep sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes, some, some. Mr. Malhotra: Some part of the day... Prabhupāda: That also you will find, those who are highly elevated, they can avoid. Mr. Malhotra: They can completely avoid sleeping! Hundred per cent? Prabhupāda: No. They can, but they do not show like that. Otherwise artificially one would like to imitate it. Mr. Malhotra: But in the medical theory they are saying so much insomnia. Prabhupāda: No insomnia, he becomes mad. (laughter) That is another thing. That is disease. Hari-śauri: One of my parent's friends, she hadn't been to sleep for 7 months because of a nervous condition when she was going crazy. I saw that. Mr. Malhotra: There must be sleeping pills. Prabhupāda: Yes, in western countries, tranquilizer. Mr. Malhotra: I was in America, you know. So in New York I stayed in one hotel, and every evening, that bellboy, he was keeping two tablets for each of us in the room. Actually I don't know what type of tablets they have done. We have slept thoroughly. In the morning he came to make the bedding. So he said "Sir, you have not taken these tablets?" I said, "What are these tablets?" "Sleeping pills." I said "No, I don't take it." "And you could sleep?" I said, "Yes." Then he said, "Can I have these?" "Yes yes, you can have by all means." (laughter) So he took away all the pills for his own use. So I mean most of the people, they can't sleep without these sleeping pills. Their mind is so agitated and so disturbed. This material... *Prabhupāda: Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyām, in the śāstra it is said, "In the material world everyone is always full of anxiety." Full of anxiety. Mr. Malhotra: The more you're engrossed in material things the more anxiety you are in... *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained. Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyām asad-grahāt [SB 7.5.5]. Because he has accepted something which is asat... Asat means which will not endure, such things, on account of this, he is always full of anxieties. Asat, this body is asat. Asad-grahāt. Because we have accepted this material body, we must be always full of anxieties. Asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ [SB 5.5.4]. Although this body is temporary, still so long the body is there, we will suffer. Kleśada, kleśada means always giving trouble. This trouble, that trouble, this trouble, that trouble. Mr. Malhotra: This road straight leads to Bangalore, Madras. This road goes to south, entire south. You can go by this road only to Kanyākumārī. Prabhupāda: Oh! Mr. Malhotra: Yes, Cape Comorin, right up to Calicut. Prabhupāda: And all the tīrthas are on the four sides. Very good road? Mr. Malhotra: Last year in the month of December I went to Rāmeśvaram. Prabhupāda: On this road? Mr. Malhotra: On this road. Of course, I went by air to Bangalore and from there we went by car. But this road goes straight. [break] ...by car, to Calcutta by air, then from there to that Bhuvaneśvara by train, and then from there by car like that. [break] It is very small place, Dvārakā, it is very small place, and in that leak was, an entire area was destroyed completely. Even communications could not be restored for three months. But Dvārakā itself was untouched completely. But on the way we found, because we went by car from here, we found roads, everything was destroyed completely. You could see demolished, the tops of houses gone away in the cyclone. Prabhupāda: Maharastra Province is rich? I don't think so. Mr. Malhotra: It is like this, that Maharastra is industrially quite stable. But that only Bombay and one, two cities. The rest of Maharastra is poor. There is not much cultivation. Prabhupāda: But industry it belongs to the other persons, not to the Maharastrians. Mr. Malhotra: Hm? Prabhupāda: All these Bombay industries, they belong to the outsiders. Mr. Malhotra: Outsiders. Now in Punjab for instance, they have created sufficient wheat to cater the entire country. That is 4/5 of the total need of the country of wheat is supplied by Punjab. Prabhupāda: But it is always. Mr. Malhotra: Punjab and Haryana, now they are two, but both together. Prabhupāda: Punjab is the best province in India. Mr. Malhotra: You know we came and settled in Poona after partition of the country. Previously we were in Rawalpindi. (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: On my way to Kashmir. Mr. Malhotra: Yes, because at Rawalpindi you could get taxi, then buses. After Rawalpindi you have to go by train. Then from there you could get car, taxi, and in those days there were yakas (?) also. You know. Tongas. Tongas, buses. [break] Prabhupāda: ...young age when I was 25 years. [break] ...via Jammu. Mr. Malhotra: Jammu, Jammu and Kashmir. Prabhupāda: Yes. And I came back via Rawalpindi. Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā, you came back via Rawalpindi. [break] You have I mean thought of spiritual bending, or spiritual... *Prabhupāda: No, we are trained up, because we belong to Kṛṣṇa family. So this Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship is our family tradition. Our forefathers, my father, my maternal uncles, we are Vaiṣṇava family. Belonging to the Caitanya-sampradāya. Mr. Malhotra: But how you entered in business, I mean. Prabhupāda: Because we were trained up from the very beginning of our life by our father, mother. Mr. Malhotra: Grandfather also? *Prabhupāda: Yes, our whole family. We have our family Deity, Dāmodara. In my childhood I was worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities. And then, fortunately, I got my Guru Mahārāja, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. So this was a good fortune, from the very beginning we were trained up. So in the beginning of our life, I was worshiping Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and playing with (indistinct). The same thing is being done now. In a larger scale. (laughter) Nitya yukta upāsate. There is no change. *Mr. Malhotra: People must be very curious in California when this Ratha*-yātrā, Jagannātha, they must be very curious. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But they enjoy very much. They enjoy very much. Those who are even not my students, they also come to me, "Thank you, Prabhupāda. Thank you, Prabhupāda." They say like that. They enjoy very much. Dance like anything. When the Ratha*-yātrā goes. They say, "It is life." They are dancing. "This is life. We do not know what is happening, but we are dancing." They say like that. Mr. Malhotra: Dancing, this ballroom dancing? *Prabhupāda: No, around the road, Hare Kṛṣṇa dancing. (laughter) There is no need of ballroom. They become mad dancing. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana*-gāna-nartana-parau. That is ecstasy. So when the ecstasy is there, they understand this is life. [break] Mr. Malhotra: Mr. Biani, Biani. He is just Birla's tea (indistinct) looking after tea. Last time I was in Delhi about two months back, so I just talked about you that I had to meet you and we could go to Vṛndāvana. Because at that time I was told that you were there. So he knew you very well, he had been to your discourses, Mr. Biani. He's Marwari. They are in Calcutta. Tea business, export tea business. We agreed on one thing, that it is very easy, rather, to make Indians understand the spiritual teachings of Lord Kṛṣṇa, because in homes, in houses, forefathers, grandmothers, mothers, they are doing, I mean, always. But to, I mean, impart this knowledge to the... Prabhupāda: Foreigners. Mr. Malhotra: Foreigners, and that to who have more or less completely, I mean very much away from the spiritual life, very much engrossed in material life, very much engrossed. And it was something very, very, very difficult, right? Without the blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself... (laughter) Prabhupāda: Therefore their fathers are charging me that this man knows something, mesmerism. (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: Their fathers are charging with that this man knows some mesmerism. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Brainwash. Mr. Malhotra: Brainwash, ācchā. How you entered in their hearts? Prabhupāda: Mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Mr. Malhotra: Hare Kṛṣṇa mesmerism. That is also mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. *Prabhupāda: Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. This is the process of cleansing the heart. So if it is done properly, everyone becomes cleansed of all dirty things. Naturally he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. Mr. Malhotra: I was rather very much surprised when I first met, Prabhupāda, about four or five devotees on the streets of this Honolulu. Because I went from this side, Japan, Hong Kong, Thailand, and then entered in America through Honolulu, Hawaii. So when I went I was just in the morning, I was trying to get the tourist bus moving in the whole city to see. And then on the main road, you know that main road, have you been to Honolulu? Prabhupāda: No. He has gone. Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā. You have been to Honolulu? Hari-śauri: Yeah. Mr. Malhotra: Five devotees were having drums, this khola, they were dancing like, I mean, in their own mood, you know. So then I had a curiosity. I just stopped one of them and I said, "Well, Mr. I would like to know about all this." He said, "Yes, you come to our temple in the morning and we'll tell you all about it." But I said that "What you are doing?" "We are playing kīrtana." I said "Well, why you are out on the streets." "Because these all demons. These are all demons you know. So those who do not have any spiritual knowledge, so we want to penetrate in their ears, and through their ears in their hearts, the name of Kṛṣṇa. So that even if they don't like it, well, the Kṛṣṇa name should enter in their hearts." Prabhupāda: That is... This mantra... Mr. Malhotra: "So that is what we are doing. So even if they don't like it we are doing. So whosoever is passing by he will have at least his ears will be accustomed to hear the name of Lord Kṛṣṇa." I said, "But in *Gītā* it is said that those who do not wish to know the true knowledge, well, it is forbidden for the devotees or for the followers to tell them anything about spiritual knowledge." "So that, sir, we are not imparting knowledge to each individual by catching them. We are just playing ourselves. So whosoever likes it, he can stand by us. Otherwise we are not..." So they replied also correctly to this also. Prabhupāda: Yes, and Kṛṣṇa says... Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā, then I said "What is this?" "This is śikhā." I said, "Well what it is meant for?" So he said "Well, this is the..." What he told me was this exactly, that the aerial of knowledge. He said that this is the aerial of knowledge. I said is it your own interpretation. No, but I think that I feel that way. This is the aerial of knowledge. [break] ...that "You come have prasādam in the morning." So next day we had to leave actually. So in the morning busy going to airport. Then I met in this New York. Then when I came to Europe, then I was sitting in one restaurant in London, and then a big group of about 15, 18, 20 devotees, they were having a good chanting, and they were... Prabhupāda: Our men regularly go on the Oxford St. Mr. Malhotra: Yes Oxford. On that street only there was Indian restaurant where this rasagullās and tea and all that is available. So we were sitting having our this thing, and then they passed. Prabhupāda: Our men, they can prepare rasagullā, samosā, kacuri. Mr. Malhotra: Now this Bombay center, when I visited Girirāja he showed me, and the restaurant, that vegetarian restaurant which will be coming up, that is good. [break] ...I mean is it regular new films are being made or only one or two films have been made so far? Girirāja: We make more films. Hari-śauri: There's another one just coming up now which explains the philosophy in more detail. The films were to show general activities, that was The Hare Kṛṣṇa People. The new film was to show the farming scheme that Prabhupāda set up in New Vrindaban, and many other farms we have now. And there was one other film to show how the books are produced and then delivered to the public. So gradually more and more are coming out. Mr. Malhotra: You know one thing I have found that there is spotless cleanliness in the centers. Whereas in our temples here in India, even when we go to Hardwar and Hrishikesh and all these, the temples, the outer cleanliness, not proper emphasis is given by the management. Prabhupāda: I stress on this cleanliness very much. If they keep unclean, I chastise them like anything. (laughing) They have learned this art. I always say, "Cleanliness is next to godliness." *Mr. Malhotra: About two years back, two, three of your devotees came to our house here. Naturally we offered them, "Would you like to have coffee, tea?" They said, "No." Then we said, "Would you like to have Coca*-cola." They said, "No." Then I said, "What would you like to have, milk?" "Yes." Lassi, chach?(?) Yes. Fruit. Yes. It happened so that Girirāja came to us twice, and twice it was this ekādaśī. Now ekādaśī day they are not supposed to eat this wheat or flour or anything. So when last we came to Bangleswara (?), so we brought some paraṭās with this gobi(?) in it. Prabhupāda: Ekādaśī. Mr. Malhotra: We didn't know about ekādaśī. When we came to Mahabaleswar, we opened. They said "No, we can't eat because it is ekādaśī." So we said that "No you won't eat, so it looks odd that we should eat." But we were very hungry, you know. In the morning we didn't take anything. We said "All right, we eat, now we will go to the bazaar and see if we could get something." Then we went to Mahabaleswar, it was all closed, because it was raining season. And then there was one shop which had bananas, good amount of bananas. So we took one dozen or two dozen bananas, and then... Prabhupāda: Banana is very good. You can make banana and potato. Potato boil and mixed with banana, and make nice puri. And then... *Mr. Malhotra: How Girirāja, I just ask you, how you took to all these good things of life? I mean in natural form or with some self*-discipline or with some coercion or with some what? Girirāja: It was Prabhupāda's mercy. I was looking for a guru. Actually whenever I heard there was a swami or a yogi, I would always go, even hundreds of miles. But I was never satisfied. But Śrīla Prabhupāda perfectly satisfied all of my questions. And I liked the process, chanting, dancing, taking prasādam, offering ārati, and I liked the devotees. It was very pleasing. So I immediately decided this is my real life. Mr. Malhotra: No, but not taking any wheat, like on ekādaśī day, all such things. Girirāja: That's training. Once we surrender to the spiritual master, then he trains us in the process of spiritual life. *Prabhupāda: Sādhu*-mārgānugamanam, ādau gurvāśrayaṁ sad-dharma-pṛcchāt sādhu-mārgānugamanam.(?) These are the process. *Mr. Malhotra: Sādhu*-mārga. *Prabhupāda: Sādhu*-mārga. Girirāja: We study the śāstras every morning and evening in all of our centers, so we become educated. [break] Prabhupāda: Four places, Haridvar, Prayāga, Vṛndāvana. Mr. Malhotra: But after every 11 years or...? Prabhupāda: No. It comes in rotation, every four years. *Mr. Malhotra: So there are sort of ardha*-kumbhīs and then kumbha. *Prabhupāda: Yes. In Allahabad they actually hold every year. Māgha*-mela. *Mr. Malhotra: Māgha*-mela. But this is not every year, this time people are... Prabhupāda: It is very, I mean to say, atmosphere becomes surcharged. Great spiritual advancement. Very nice. Mr. Malhotra: (Hindi conversation) Prabhupāda: Iran is like, that but no green, simply sand. Mr. Malhotra: These are the mountains of Deccan. They say that these all mountains were under sea. *Prabhupāda: Yes, everything was... Pralaya*-payodhi-jale dhṛtavān asi vedam **. [break] Mr. Malhotra: (Hindi) ...for quite some time at a particular spot. This spot was shown to us. And people have very great reverence for that spot. So now, at one time we accept Lord Rāma the supreme master of a particular yuga, and then He had to worship Lord Śiva. So who is supreme, Lord Śiva or Lord Rāma? Prabhupāda: Lord Rāma is the Lord. Śiva is devotee. Sometimes you wash the feet of your son. That does not mean you are a servant of the son. Kṛṣṇa, why Rāma? Kṛṣṇa, when Sudāmā Vipra came to His house, He washed his feet. Mr. Malhotra: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa immediately got down from his siṁhāsana and took his lotus, touch his feet. And Nārada Muni was smiling, nara*-līlā. Mr. Malhotra: Nārada Muni was smiling. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Nārada Muni knew it that He is Supreme Lord, but he did not check it. Mr. Malhotra: He let Lord Kṛṣṇa bow. This is the biggest paradox. *Prabhupāda: Mad*-bhakta-pūjābhyadhika [SB 11.19.21]. Kṛṣṇa is pleased when His devotee is worshiped. (Hindi) Mr. Malhotra: When I went to Dvārakā Purī, so there is Bheda Dvārakā in the sea. One is Dvārakā Purī, then about I think 10, 12 miles away there is Bheda Dvārakā. At Bheda Dvārakā, that is the residential palace of Lord Kṛṣṇa. And seven rāṇīs of Lord Kṛṣṇa. They show each building, their whole building. So what was that? Prabhupāda: He had 16,108 queens. Mr. Malhotra: 16,108 queens. But there they show I think only 8 or 7. *Prabhupāda: All are described, that he had 16,000 palaces. And Nārada Muni came to see Him, what He is doing actually. He saw different activities, and Kṛṣṇa expanded Himself to 16,108. Each rāṇī had 10 sons, and they had sons also. In this way the Yadu*-vaṁśa was crores. *Mr. Malhotra: There was one story that Lord Kṛṣṇa was going en route and then He had to be at the place of*-at Virāṭa because of some śraddhā of some muni. That is (Hindi) [break] So we get frustrated, but where the first apple came. Where is seed of first apple planted on this earth planet? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bījo 'haṁ sarva*-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10]. Kṛṣṇa answers this question. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. I am the original seed of everything. Mr. Malhotra: Otherwise, it is very difficult, that wherefrom the very first seed came. Prabhupāda: And He says another place. Mr. Malhotra: (indistinct) [break] *Prabhupāda: ...written by D.L. Raya. (indistinct) janme puṣpa bara amatare vasudhārā. (indistinct) hari hari āche. Tāra madhye āche deśe eka sakala deśe śreya.(?) Out of all these countries, there is a first*-class country, and that is my country, India. (indistinct) Tāra madhye āche deśe eka sakala deśe śreya.(?) So the India is sakala deśe śreya. The best of all other countries. Indian man: (Hindi) All same... *Prabhupāda: No, actually, India is the best country. There is no doubt. Even these boys, they say India is the best. Puṇya*-bhūmi. Religion and other studies of life, India. Communist (Hindi) that (if) you want to study religion then go to India." These boys of western countries, they come to India not to learn the so-called science. They have enough in their country. They do not come here how to manufacture airplane. Mr. Malhotra: For technology we have to go there. Prabhupāda: There is no need. It is simply bogus. The first thing you require... You have got this body. You have to eat and you have to dress yourself. You can get from this land. Keep some cows, grow your agricultural products, also cotton, then all economic problem is solved. And save time and understand what is your relationship with God. That is India. This is Vedic civilization. Mr. Malhotra: This era happened in the past, in the last five hundred years. Prabhupāda: India is based on this principle. Mr. Malhotra: In every era demons and good people must be. Prabhupāda: That is there. Mr. Malhotra: Always must be there. The ratio may be different. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: Bad and good, mātra may be different. Prabhupāda: But India is especially meant for understanding God. That is India's... Just like this place, such a nice place, automatically you'll remember God. Mr. Malhotra: You will like this place, this Panchakini, (?) where we are going now. A wonderful peaceful place, very peaceful. The atmosphere... [break] Prabhupāda: ...live peacefully, save time, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is my mission. Mr. Malhotra: The requirement of every human being is... Prabhupāda: Very simple. Mr. Malhotra: Very simple. But all these, you know these added added, added. Prabhupāda: That is asurika. To increase artificially necessities of life. And become entangled. Mr. Malhotra: Gandhi's place, Wardha. Prabhupāda: Wardha. And I saw his cottage and everything. So I said this is the... After all he wanted to live very simple life in a cottage, why he declared war against the Britishers? What was the necessity? (Hindi) Britishers would never tackled you or objected. The villagers were using. Why so much energy was engaged, to drive away the Britishers? Mr. Malhotra: No, he wanted the country to be free from the foreign rule. Prabhupāda: No, now what freedom we have got? (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: That is a different thing. *Prabhupāda: But that means we do not get such information from Bhagavad*-gītā, that "Make your country free." Why he took Bhagavad-gītā and did this business, miscreant (?) business. He took Bhagavad-gītā and he was busy declaring war. Because politically, sometimes required. But the thing is that if your ideal is to live very simple life... His, I mean to say, followers, Jawaharlal Nehru, he did not take up this. Mr. Malhotra: He used to stay in bhangi colonies, Gandhi. Hm? *Prabhupāda: So, and he was killed in the bhangi colony. No, he was killed in the Birla's place. And there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. Although he was thinking, "This is my life, Bhagavad*-gītā," without Kṛṣṇa. What is this? *Mr. Malhotra: Bhagavad*-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? He never commented on third chapter. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Any chapter. It begins bhagavān uvāca. Now how he can describe Bhagavān? This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. *Indian man: He used Bhagavad*-gītā for political purposes. *Prabhupāda: That is, political purpose, you may. But even politically, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara [Bg. 8.7]. "Fight. But always remember Me." That is politics. Kṛṣṇa never says that you forget and fight. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara [Bg. 8.7]. This is Bhagavad*-gītā. Kṛṣṇa never says that "You give up politics." Actually, the Battle of Kurukṣetra is politics. But still Kṛṣṇa is there. How you can discard Kṛṣṇa? Mr. Malhotra: Yes, battle of Kurukṣetra was fought... Prabhupāda: Politics. Senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta. Senayor ubhayor madhye. [Bg. 1.21] "Between the two soldiers, keep my chariot, my dear Acyuta." He is addressing Acyuta. Acyuta, Kṛṣṇa, agreed to become his chariot driver. Therefore he is purposefully using this word acyuta. "Because I know You are the Supreme Lord, and I am ordering You, but because You promised that You will carry my order, Acyuta, You never fail in Your word." So God's another name is Acyuta. God never falls down. This Māyāvādī theory that "I am God, now I am fallen down," That is wrong theory. How God can fall down? If God falls down He is not God. Dog falls down, not the God. Mr. Malhotra: How can he be supreme if he can fall down? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Na māṁ karmāṇi limpanti na me karma*-phale spṛhā [Bg. 4.14]. "I have nothing to do, and neither if anyway I act, the resultant action does not effect Me." But we are all karma-phala vatya. (?) So how God and myself can be equal? Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa. There is daiva, there is superior arrangement. According to my karma I get a different type of body. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. Mr. Malhotra: But when I surrender my karmas to Almighty... *Prabhupāda: Then ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣ... [Bg. 18.66], then Kṛṣṇa takes care of you. Mr. Malhotra: Then those karmas don't affect...? *Prabhupāda: No. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām [Bs. 5.54]. Those who are bhaktas, their karmas are finished. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. Devotee is not under karma-phala. Mr. Malhotra: Then if one understands ahaṁ brahmāsmi... Prabhupāda: No, simply does not understand ahaṁ brahmāsmi, but he engages himself in devotional service. That is not the end. Simply by understanding that "I am this," that is not sufficient. "I am this and this is my duty." Mr. Malhotra: "I am this and this is my duty." Then that is what is... Prabhupāda: Yes. That is liberation. Mr. Malhotra: But in the final analysis, at... Prabhupāda: Final analysis is devotional service. Mr. Malhotra: The paraṁ pada. They even advocate, means Lord Kṛṣṇa advocates, that all icchā, every type of icchā, icchā of even mukti... *Prabhupāda: That is negation. Just like you become freed from fever. So the symptoms of fever finished. But your healthy life begins. And after submission of the fever, still you lie down, that is not cured. Cure will be recognized when you work in your healthy state. That is bhakti. After becoming brahma*-bhūya, the activities should be devotional service. Then it is healthy life, liberated life. Mr. Malhotra: Without any ākāṅkṣā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ākāṅkṣā is also there. That ākāṅkṣā is different. That ākāṅkṣā, how to please Kṛṣṇa, that ākāṅkṣā. In the material stage, the ākāṅkṣā is how to please my senses. In the liberated stage; how to please Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: By pleasing Lord, one does not please one's own ego also to some extent? Prabhupāda: It is just like if you put water on the root of the tree, so all the parts of the tree may become satisfied, automatically. Or if you put food in the stomach, all the parts of your body becomes satisfied that is automatic. You don't require to make a separate endeavor. That is not required. Mr. Malhotra: Is there any difference between the ego of a person who is collecting money, or material things, all his life, or a person who is giving all the material things for the service of humanity at large? Is there any difference between the two? *Prabhupāda: To give your fruits of, result of your fruitive activities, either you give to yourself or to your brothers and sisters, it is the same thing. Expanded. Just like a child eats, but when he is little grown up, he gives to his brother also. But the principle is the same. But when you give everything to God, that is liberated stage. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat kuruṣva tad mad*-arpaṇam. "Whatever you do, you give me Me, whatever you eat, you give to Me." Yad aśnāsi dadāsi yat [Bg. 9.27]. "You want to give in charity, you give to Me." (pause) We have to cross this hill? Mr. Malhotra: Yes, we have to cross the hill. And then we again go on plain, then to cross another hill. But they are small, only three, four miles. We have already crossed one near Poona. That was also a small. This is called Kandalakat. That was called Kaprij. Some Kaprij Rishi I think. Ah, there's the name, Kaprij. [break] Mr. Malhotra: Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana. And Bombay. Mr. Malhotra: Now in March it will be completed, Kṛṣṇa center? Girirāja: It will be almost completed, but we will open. Everything will begin, our activities. Prabhupāda: You have seen? Mr. Malhotra: Ah. Prabhupāda: They say it will be a unique temple in Bombay. [break] Mr. Malhotra: My son is getting married on 24th of January. The younger son who went to factory this morning. He is getting married. And we are going, taking bride from here to Juhu. There is Hotel Horizon there, near Kṛṣṇa Land. So the bride will be staying there in Horizon, and then from there procession will be going to Sun and Sand, so on 24th. Whether you will be in Bombay or not? 24th January? *Prabhupāda: May not. Because Kumbha*-mela is there. [break] Mr. Malhotra: ...at auditorium. This road goes to Bangalore straight, and we go to Mahabalesvara. This side. Prabhupāda: Bangalore how many miles? Mr. Malhotra: Total, from Poona, 520 miles. And you go from here on this road only to Goa also. To go to Madras, you go also on this road [break] ...dolak.(?) Some (indistinct) will give... I mean sounds are different, you know, instruments are music. *Prabhupāda: This is called musical science, Jala*-taraṅga. Jala, taraṅga means vibration, different vibrations. Still there are, among the musicians, there are artists, they'll put vials and make the different tunes by filling it with water. (SP makes sound dn dn dn dn dn) [break] Mr. Malhotra: This place is full of tourists from Bombay, from all of Gujarat. [break] Pancagani is one place, and 12 miles difference Mahabalesvara. Also it is twin city like Secunderabad, Hyderabad. [break] In the morning when you go for walk you will find local ladies getting load of food collected from the forests and taking. Very old, old type of life [break] ...this place. I visited Switzerland and I visited almost every hill station of the country, and almost practically entire world. But I find this place of a different solace, [break] ...and second, it is very neat and clean. Prabhupāda: Maharastrians are very neat and clean. Upper class, they are very. [break] ...karmī. Mr. Malhotra: Good man. Prabhupāda: Good man from worldly point of view, but from spiritual point of view, in the lowest stage. Karmī is the lowest stage. Then jñānī, then yogi, then bhakta. Mr. Malhotra: More a politician. Prabhupāda: Yes, karmī means this how to enjoy this world. Whole life they have struggled how to enjoy this, how to enjoy myself, how to allow my men to enjoy. This is karmī platform. Everyone is doing that. Everyone is working hard for himself, for his family, and expand the family, for society, and expand the society, for the nation. Here is karmī plan. Gandhi, Birla they are all... There is no question of spiritual life. Mr. Malhotra: Now this is the Kṛṣṇā River. You just see how small it is, and how big it becomes later on. In the rainy season this road is closed because this all water comes up, you know. Now it is just a small rivulet. This is Kṛṣṇā river. And it comes just opposite our place, from where it starts, from the mountain. Here is the place called Haya (?). This was also one of the biggest Sanskrit University in the older time like that of Teksasila. And Sarnatha, near Sarnatha, what is that place? Not Sarnatha, up in Bihar, that was also very big university, no? Prabhupāda: Oh, Taksila. Mr. Malhotra: No Taksila was in Punjab, that side. In Bengal, Bihar, that... Prabhupāda: Tarbanga. Mr. Malhotra: I visited that. So this was the seat of very old temples, oldest temples in this place, this Haya. (?) And they say this is one of the oldest of the oldest towns or cities of the country. Small place, Pasir, with a population of about 10-15,000 people. All the temples are in the Kṛṣṇā River, in the Kṛṣṇā river. [break] Whatever I am today, that is all due to my past karmas, good or bad, I mean. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Malhotra: And whatever I am doing today, that I will have to reap the harvest in the future. Prabhupāda: You are creating the next position. Mr. Malhotra: So that means that I am bound by my past karmas. My destiny, my fate is tied with the past karmas. So I have no other goal but to have the phala of past karmas. Or can I change my fate? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are enjoying the past karmas, and you are creating new karmas. Mr. Malhotra: But this means a circle that I'll always be. *Prabhupāda: Karma*-cakra. Mr. Malhotra: So how can one be out of this cakra? Prabhupāda: That cakra, you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And put all the karmas... Prabhupāda: Yes, He says, "You surrender. I square up all your karma." Mr. Malhotra: Then only square up. Otherwise, no. Otherwise continue in this vicious circle. *Prabhupāda: Dharmasyāsya parantapa mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu*-saṁsāra-vartmani [Bg. 9.3]. Karma-cakra, this mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. One after another, one body after another, one body after another. This will continue. If you don't come to Kṛṣṇa, then nivartante, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani, you have to return again to that karma-cakra. Mr. Malhotra: The only way out is to surrender your...? Prabhupāda: To accept Kṛṣṇa, that "You are my Lord. I forgot it. I surrender. Kindly accept me." Mr. Malhotra: How to surrender? Prabhupāda: Surrender, there are six items. Yes. That "If I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection. I am one of His servants. And whatever He does, accept that." Mr. Malhotra: Good or bad. Prabhupāda: There is no bad. Everything is good. And first accept what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa, to reject what is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Malhotra: And what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa? How one knows? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says. Do that. Kṛṣṇa says man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Always think of Kṛṣṇa, become His devotee, offer obeisances. It doesn't require any extra endeavor. These things. Whatever you have got, you can do it. You can think of Kṛṣṇa without any impediment. Who can check it if you think of Kṛṣṇa? This is favorable. And what is unfavorable, that should be rejected. What is favorable, that should be accepted. And to believe firmly that, "Now I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." [break] But dog has got a quality that he surrenders to his master. The master is a Vaiṣṇava, then dog gets the benefit. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya, mat para, mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mat para, mat para [Bg. 9.32]. When the process is there, everyone can surrender, that "I shall act only what is favorable to get Kṛṣṇa's mercy." Yes. "And I shall not act any way which is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa." These first two determinations. And then, "Because I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." You believe in it. Kṛṣṇa says ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. Believe in it. "Now I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. My all resultant actions of sinful life is finished. I will not come again." In this way. Indian man: If one surrenders, how to know that Kṛṣṇa has accepted? Prabhupāda: That you will understand. Just like if you eat, you will understand that you are eating. Nobody has to convince you. You will be convinced. Mr. Malhotra: The test of the pudding is by eating. Not by simply telling. Prabhupāda: When you eat, you haven't got to ask somebody else, "Do you think I am happy?" You'll feel yourself. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. If you are actually devotee, then you will be detestful to all material things. [break] ...mouse of the mountain. (laughter) Mr. Malhotra: Yes, he was declared mouse of the mountain. [break] Prabhupāda: Yes, if you want material power, you must be worshiper of Durgā. Mr. Malhotra: And if you want spiritual...? Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. This Bālajī is Viṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: How then Viṣṇu, the incarnations, Kṛṣṇa, then Viṣṇu's incarnation... Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu is everything. If you want material power you can get it from Viṣṇu. Mr. Malhotra: Material power from Viṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Yes, Viṣṇu can give everything. Mr. Malhotra: Viṣṇu can give the power of bhakti also. Prabhupāda: Everything. Yes, bhakti is, generally He gives bhakti. If you want something other than bhakti, you can get it. Mr. Malhotra: This is the center of M.R.A., Moral rearmament. I phoned them for yesterday, so that Rajmohan Gandhi is away, not here. But the other people are here. We will visit this some time during the day. These days one conference is going on. There are 130 countries. Some conference. Devotee: There? Indian man: What is the subject? Mr. Malhotra: I don't know, remember. Prabhupāda: Oh, you may not know it, and this will do never any benefit. Mr. Malhotra: Now this is Pancagani, starts from here. (end) *Morning Walk-*-December 25, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: You have to be free from mind also. Guest (1) (Indian man): Free from mind? Prabhupāda: Yes, mind. Guest (1): Very difficult to control mind. Prabhupāda: But if you want freedom, you have to do that. Guest (1): Yes, that's true. There is no other alternative. Guest (2) (Indian man): Freedom from mind, how would you explain it or how would you detail it? [break] *Prabhupāda: ...mind means polluted mind. We are part and parcel of God. Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. Jīva is as pure as God and on account of this mind, he is suffering in this material world. You can see. You can see. Here is a living being, this tree. It is also a living being, but he's standing before me for fifty years or more than that. He cannot move an inch, and we are moving. So why this condition? He is also living being; I am also living being. I have got little freedom to move; he hasn't got. Why this difference of position? Due to the mind. So here in this material world there are 8,400,000 different forms of life. They're all due to the mental concoction. So if we want our original life as good as God, at least in quality, that is freedom of mind. And then we cease to become one of the covered living beings within this material world. Guest (1): Sir, I read in one of your lectures at London, before the British office (indistinct), and you gave the example of Mahatma Gandhi and Kennedy. In particular, Mahatma Gandhi you said that four types of (sic:) defaulted mind and this condition and those condition. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Every living being is polluted by four kinds of deficiencies. A conditioned soul commits mistake. He takes something for something. And because he has no perfect knowledge, he wants to become leader. That is cheating. Guest (1): Right. You have said that in that speech. Prabhupāda: Yes. And, above all, his senses are imperfect. Therefore, from such persons with deficiency, how you can get real knowledge? That is not possible. We have to approach a person who has no deficiency. Then we shall get real knowledge. So Kṛṣṇa and His representative are persons without any deficiencies. So we have to take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa or one who represents Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we'll be cheated, because he has got deficiencies. Guest (1): But that you have said, that one of his colleague or assistant told to Gandhi that "There is danger, and you shouldn't go to the meeting," and in spite of that... *Prabhupāda: No, no, I did not say. I wrote one letter to Gandhi that, "Mahatmaji, you have got some respectability throughout the whole world. Now you struggled for so*-called svarāja. Now you have got it. Better retire from this life and preach Bhagavad-gītā." Guest (1): I think he listened to your advice because before he was murdered, on that day... Prabhupāda: Yes. "Otherwise you'll meet the fate of Mussolini." Guest (2): And what was his reply? Prabhupāda: He did not reply. Guest (1): He drafted that statement that Congress should be dissolved. It should be. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He was implicated. This is māyā, that although he got svarāja, he was not free. He was full of anxiety, and he he was not at all... (aside:) Ayi. Jaya. So long one is absorbed in material thoughts, he'll be full of anxieties. Guest (1): That's true. He was full of anxieties. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That means he could not get any spiritual idea. Asad grahāt. Material existence means accepting something which will not exist, asat. Asato mā sad gamaya. The Vedic instruction is: "Do not remain in this material world, and make your progress..." Asato mā sad gamaya. But people are so accustomed to materialistic way of life that they are reluctant. That is māyā, very strong. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. It is very, very difficult. Māyā tries to punish every conditioned soul, and as soon as there is some attempt to get out of the clutches of māyā, she becomes still strong: "Where you shall go my dear son? You remain with me." Yaḥ devī sarva*-bhūteṣu nidra-rūpiṇa sam...(?) In the Caṇḍī, yaḥ devī, he is situated, keeping the conditioned souls in dream. He is simply dreaming, "I'll be happy in this way; *I'll be happy in that way." And that is mental concoction. He'll never be happy. Kṛṣṇa said moghāśā mogha*-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ, āsurīṁ bhāvam āśri... [Bg. 9.12]. Because he has not recognized the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all his hopes and endeavors will be baffled. So even a person like Mahatma Gandhi, he became baffled. Guest (1): Yes, that's right. He admitted also. *Prabhupāda: And what to speak of others. His ambition was Hindu*-Muslim unity. So that was banned. Guest (1): Total failure. *Prabhupāda: His ambition was nonviolent*-he was killed by violence. So what to speak of others? A person so dedicated, so nice, but he followed the wrong path. Recently I had been to his Sevasram in Wardha. So there was no Kṛṣṇa worship and he said that he is very fond of Bhagavad-gītā. But he understood Bhagavad-gītā in his own way. Guest (1): (laughing) In a different way, I would say. *Prabhupāda: And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, as soon as you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā in your own way, it is finished. It is finished. Naṣṭa. Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. So naṣṭa cheese, what is naṣṭa, what is the use of...? Guest (1): It should be destroyed. No use to it. Prabhupāda: Suppose if I supply you something which is spoiled, then what benefit you will derive? Therefore no benefit is derived by the people in general either from Gandhi or Vinoba Bhave or Tilak because it was naṣṭa. Guest (1): Sir, how do you compare it with... This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement... Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is... Guest (1): ...for the common man, for the downtrodden, for the poor... Prabhupāda: Yes, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they will understand. Guest (1): That should be some motivation... Prabhupāda: Just like if you are hungry, if you get some real food, you'll understand. Example is these American, European boys. They are simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and you see how they are advanced. Guest (1): How come that in this country they...? Prabhupāda: Immediately come. But you won't take. That is your fault. You have manufactured your own way of life. Otherwise, Hare Kṛṣṇa is India's gift. Guest (1): It's not much. Prabhupāda: Yes. But you won't take it. He'll speak so many nonsense; he'll never speak Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is misfortune. Guest (2): What are the aims of the Indian society. Although it's given birth to so much, it still doesn't take it as success. What is the weakness in the Indian society that they don't... *Prabhupāda: Because they have got bad leaders, the rascal leaders. Just like see. Mahatma Gandhi, he misled. But he did not know how to lead. And what to speak of others. They do not know. I saw this Vinoba Bhave, he does not know anything. He has become leader. I saw in his āśrama about one dozen women, they are reciting Bhagavad*-gītā. That's all. And for the last forty years he's working on Bhagavad-gītā, and the result is some forty women is reciting Bhagavad-gītā. So this is the result. So what they will do? They do not know how to lead. And he has written one book on Bhagavad-gītā, but he has become a great leader. And that is also not according to Bhagavad-gītā. This is going on. This is going on. Guest (1): Unfortunately, he has... There are not very silent... Prabhupāda: Take for example satyagraha. Satyagraha... What is the satyagraha? That is the child's play. Just like a child, he wants something. You are not giving him. He'll cry. He'll force you. So is there any śāstric injunction? Now these things have become popular. Real thing rejected, and some false thing presented by childish attempt, that is accepted. Guest (1): But sir, would you not agree that in order to appeal to the masses or to make masses into any movement... *Prabhupāda: No, it is... You see... It is not... If you want to become an educated man or if you want to give first*-class education, it is not for the mass. It is for the leader. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. If the leaders are educated, then others will follow. But if the leaders are not educated, what the others will do? That is the difficulty. And the so-called leaders, without being educated, they become leader. Guest (1): That's why all this trouble. Prabhupāda: Yes. They manufacture some idea. Guest (1): Which has nothing to do with the... Prabhupāda: Nothing to do... It is spoiled. If you manufacture idea, because you are imperfect... How you can manufacture ideas? Four deficiencies are there, so if you manufacture with deficiency of your own person, then what will be the knowledge? Guest (1): The result will also be deficiency. Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Our knowledge... Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ. So who can be more śreṣṭha than Kṛṣṇa? Than Vyāsadeva, Nārada, the ācāryas? But they will not follow. They will manufacture some idea. That is the difficulty in India at the present moment. Some upstart leaders, they have misled them. That is the difficulty. And we are poor fellows. If we say the right thing, they'll not take it. Guest (1): Not only take it but they'll ridicule and say that something has gone wrong somewhere. Prabhupāda: They'll not take it: "No! What is this Swamiji...? Mahatma Gandhi says this and this... Tilak says this, this, that." And if we say that they are wrong, then people will criticize, "Oh, he has become more than..." This is the difficulty. We don't say anything except what is said by the great personalities that are Kṛṣṇa conscious. So I am not saying anything of my own manufacture. I am simply saying what Kṛṣṇa has said. But they will reject that. I say that Kṛṣṇa says that you become a Kṛṣṇa's devotee. It is very simple for me. And they will say, "Huh! What is this nonsense Kṛṣṇa? We have seen this Kṛṣṇa. Now we have got this leader." This is the problem. Upadeṣo hi mūrkhāṇāṁ prakopāya na śāntaye. (Hindi) Guest (2): They reject it because they find it difficult to... Prabhupāda: No, it is not at all difficulty. What is the difficulty? Guest (2): So then why do they reject it? Prabhupāda: If I say that "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," what is the difficulty? But he thinks that "This is insignificant." He thinks like that. What I am teaching these people? Guest (1): Very simple thing. Prabhupāda: Very simple thing, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." I have not given them any bribe. I have not shown them any magic of gold manufacturing. From the very beginning I said, "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." But that is becoming fruitful. Guest (1): That gives them peace of mind, because their mind gets attuned to something that is good. Prabhupāda: But that they will not take. Guest (2): That they will not take for what reason? Prabhupāda: Reason is: "This is cheap. The swami is giving something cheap." Nowadays it has become a fashion, "Meditation." What nonsense meditation he will do?" This is going on. He cannot take cheap thing. Guest (1): Cheap thing may be the right thing, the true thing, but "Because it's cheap, (laughing) so we..., not to be bothered." Prabhupāda: In Europe, America, the Indian students, they say, "Oh, we have seen all this Hare Kṛṣṇa. We now want technology." Guest (1): Sir, I got into conversation this young man in Colombo for the simple reason that I have got five sons, and those sons are trying to be Westernized or Americanized to the extent that I couldn't believe that my own children would go to this extent. So I told Girirāja when he came to see me and introduced my children to them, and it has now little impact. Because now that... Prabhupāda: (aside:) Don't sit down there. Don't sit down there. (Hindi) No, sitting on the... Guest (1): You move it. Prabhupāda: She is the daughter of jñānī. Guest (3) (Indian man): They have come with me. Prabhupāda: So why not ask him. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Now they have, after seeing these young men, they have started thinking that "Why these young men (laughing) from America are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and why we are not doing?" I said, "You just think it over." Prabhupāda: (Hindi) No, America... The purpose of going to America for... This was one of the cause, that "When I bring Americans here, these rascals will take some lesson." Guest (1): I think you are absolutely right. (laughing) Psychologically, somehow or other, anything that is... Prabhupāda: And long, long ago, in the beginning, one friend wrote. I replied in that letter, that "You have finished your cows. You are importing powdered milk. Now you have to import brāhmaṇas also from America. (laughter) Guest (1): True, absolutely true. Prabhupāda: Now, you see that we are establishing so many temples. They are being maintained by imported American brāhmaṇas. You cannot get. Guest (1): Same thing in Aurobindo. I went to Pondicherry also this... Prabhupāda: You cannot get here now brāhmaṇas. They have learned how to eat meat, how to drink, how to have illicit sex. They are finished. Guest (1): No more brāhmaṇas. You are right. That's tragedy. That's a fact. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) *Guest (2): Some of them must be non*-greedy, not greedy, eh? Prabhupāda: There are many good men. It is not that simply brāhmaṇas have gone to hell, but everyone has gone. Guest (1): (indistinct) has failed. *Prabhupāda: Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ. (Hindi) Śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma... [Bg. 18.42]. (Hindi) Nobody's... (Hindi) Guest (1): No, the other day I was with Natalia in Japan, and he also said the same thing, that we have no training for the leaders. And because there is no proper leadership, everything comes to a zero. You have to train a man or a woman for a particular work. That is not being done in India. Guest (2): British did it. Guest (1): They made their servants quite all right. Prabhupāda: They wanted for graft, to manipulate their empire. They wanted some subordinate hands. They never wanted to give real education. Guest (2): That's true. Prabhupāda: They wanted that the... That is cooperation. That is one of the Gandhi's understanding, that "These people are ruling over us by our cooperation. Therefore let us noncooperate and they'll fail. They'll not be able to rule." Guest (1): Carry on their... Prabhupāda: But that program was also failure because India is so poor that there was no possible to noncooperate, because Gandhi's civil disobedience movement only 60,000 men joined, and we have 600,000,000. So what is the percentage? Guest (1): Not even one percent. Prabhupāda: And that also, when they came back from the jail life, they decided not to do it again. Therefore Gandhi did not recommend mass civil disobedience next time. He recommended individual... [break] ...but (indistinct) 19l7, and we got svarāja in 1947. So it was not due to civil disobedience or noncooperation. It was due to Subash Bose's INA. He thought that when he organized soldiers, and... Guest (1): Put them on the battlefield, fought them, defeated them... *Prabhupāda: Yes. And when the Britishers found, "Now the soldiers are non*-cooperating. There is no hope of ruling," they left. Guest (1): Yes. That is the truth. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And Subash Bose was always against this nonviolent means. That is the difference of opinion with Gandhi. So he wanted to capture the whole power, and he captured, but Gandhi became so angry upon him that he did not attend the Congress when Subash Bose was elected President. Then other lieutenants*-Subash Bose also was Gandhi's student-so when others planned, requested that "Gandhiji is not happy. You better resign." So he resigned, and tactfully he went out of India. He knew that "So long Gandhi is there, my policy... I'll not be able because there will be..." Guest (1): Always opposition. Prabhupāda: "...opposition." Therefore he went out and organized the INA, and that was successful. It is not Gandhi's noncooperation movement. *Guest (1): That's true. Now in the British official records which they are publishing their secret papers of twenty*-five years, that knowledge is very clearly that it was this armed fight of Indian National Army which convinced the British that they could not rule India with the Indian soldiers. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real noncooperation. (laughter) What this public noncooperation will do. They are simply clerks. Some of them may be high*-court judges, but no responsible post was given. Guest (1): And all these atrocities were committed by Indians upon Indians at the orders of the British. *Prabhupāda: All the big, big secretaries, under*-secretaries, governors... There was no minister, all European, only some clerks. So what is the use of clerks' noncooperation? They didn't care. And in order to pat Gandhi, the governor sometimes used to invite him. "Sir, you are so powerful. Kindly stop this movement." And Gandhi became puffed-up that the Britishers are very afraid of him. "No! I shall do." And Subash Bose insisting, "In this way, they'll never go by this nonviolent." Guest (1): Human nature as it is, you can't... Unless there is some sort of a compulsion, whether in spiritual... Prabhupāda: And in politics, might is right. Guest (1): Of course. Survival of the fittest. Prabhupāda: Yes. In politics you cannot become... Guest (1): A sādhu. It is absurd. (laughing) Prabhupāda: That is absurd. Guest (1): Two contradictory terms. Prabhupāda: Therefore Arjuna was ridiculed. "What is this nonsense?" Kutas tvā kaśmalam idam: "You have come to fight. You are talking nonsense, that 'I will not fight.' " Kṛṣṇa did not approve. Guest (1): He told... He defined "What is your dharma and what is niṣkāma akarma." So it's very difficult to define dharma, but once it is defined, there should be no difficulty. *Prabhupāda: No, dharma is there. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is dharma. And everything is cheating. That... Because we are teaching that, that only dharma is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore we are not very much liked. They are of opinion, "Why Kṛṣṇa is God? I have got this God. I have got this, so many incarnations." This is... Guest (2): Why do you say we are not very much liked? The movement is spreading. Prabhupāda: Because we are fools. Guest (2): But the movement is spreading, I am saying. I Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is spreading. Prabhupāda: Movement will spread, undoubtedly, because it is genuine. Guest (2): It is spreading because we are liked. *Guest (1): No, sir, there you are also correct. I would say this, that these American boys and young girls who have come here, because this, our mind is conditioned into inferiority complex or slave*-minded person, everything which is adopted there must be... Prabhupāda: No, we are also slaves, but we are slave of the right person. Guest (1): Yes, of the Supreme. Prabhupāda: That is the difference. And they are slaves of their senses. That is the difference. We are not master. We are also slaves. But we are slaves of the person who is perfect, and they are slaves of their senses. Guest (2): The spread of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement in Bombay in the last three, four years has been... I don't know, you may not be satisfied, but I think it's quite good. Prabhupāda: No, it will be good. If people take to it little seriously, it will be good. Therefore we are spending so much money, that "You come, you all respectable and educated people. Come, try to understand and spread it for the benefit of your country." Guest (1): But sir, your conclusion here is correct in the sense that they say that "Swami only says you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa what could be done?" Prabhupāda: No, no, but they have no eyes to see how it is being done all over the world. They do not consider it, what... Guest (1): How it's done, why it's done, what is the result. (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Film*-wala...? What is his name? Girirāja: Devanand? Prabhupāda: Yes. He purposefully criticized this movement by Hare Kṛṣṇa film. Guest (1): Yes, yes, I have seen that film. Prabhupāda: We are going on. He is finished. His film is finished, but we are going on. But he tried purposefully that "This is a hippie movement." Guest (1): Yes, "Hippie movement, bhāng, gāñjā, and all sex and perversion of all sorts." Guest (2): This cloud on the movement in America, is that vanishing? Prabhupāda: It will vanish. Guest (2): It will. It's bound to. Prabhupāda: Although they are making some strong movement against this. Guest (2): But what is the position now? Is it dying out or increasing? Prabhupāda: No, no. We are selling more books. Guest (2): No, is the cloud dying out? I'm not saying the movement is dying out. The movement cannot. Prabhupāda: We are... Now how much worth of books we have sold in one week? *Hari-śauri: Forty*-three lakhs. *Prabhupāda: Forty*-three lakhs worth of books we have sold in one week. Guest (1): Girirāja said that's the main source of income for this movement, as a matter of fact. Prabhupāda: Yes we are getting ten lakhs of rupees every month from that book department. Guest (1): Yes, that's the main source. Because I inquired with him that whether it is not something to do with CIA, wherefrom your money comes? Prabhupāda: Just see how foolish. The CIA, American CIA, they will pay us, (laughter) and these boys, CIA boys, will come and dance with me. (laughter) Just understand how these Indians have become rascals. They have no common sense. Guest (1): Perverts I would say. Perverts. Prabhupāda: And that is being supported, "Oh, they are CIA." *Guest (1): So I talked at great length with Girirāja, and I cross-examined him thoroughly with all these Indians who would be thinking about this Hare Kṛṣṇa because when I said that I have become a life member of yours, then he also might have been bit surprised, but mainly I wanted to impress upon my children-they're young boys*-that "It's all right. You also go there." Prabhupāda: Once spoiled, it is very difficult. Guest (1): Very difficult. Prabhupāda: To reform. Guest (1): Then minds are spoiled; that is true. Their minds are, all Indian youth completely. Prabhupāda: But you have spoiled them. You have given this impression that "This 'religion, religion, religion' has spoiled our country. Now throw it, all these books, in the water." The leaders say that. "Take to technology." They come to me. They challenge, "Swamiji, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? Now we require technology." This is ignorance. Guest (2): If *Gītā* is properly explained to a Westernized Indian, it gets accepted sooner than the difficult... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Indian Indian. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Guest (1): ...brāhmaṇas. Guest (2): No, those are Westernized Indians. Guest (1): Say, brāhmaṇas from abroad... Prabhupāda: What is the time now? Guest (1): Yes, sir, it's your time. Hari-śauri: Quarter to seven. Almost. Guest (1): Impact from these young boys and girls is good, very good, I should say. These young boys and girls who are working here by their own... *Prabhupāda: Their one qualification is that they are not poverty stricken. And our boys, they are poverty stricken. So daridra*-doṣa guṇa-rāśi-nāśī.(?) Even though are educated, on account of poverty they sacrificed everything their culture, their knowledge. Daridra-doṣa guṇa-rāśi-nāśī. Guest (1): Yes, hunger is the cause of all. (Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: I chastise them only because they don't care for money. (laughter) Guest (1): They are extreme. It is contradiction... Prabhupāda: And because they are fortunate, wherever they go, they get money. Guest (1): That is law of nature. All the big rivers go to the sea where water is not wanted. Prabhupāda: I have seen them. They squander so much money, and I chastise them that "You are so loose, you are so rascal and..." But still, whatever money I have got, it is due to them. Guest (1): That's true, that's true. (laughter) That's true. That's true. Prabhupāda: Otherwise... (laughing) Guest (1): Really, it is true. [break] *Prabhupāda: I have tried convinced them. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrīḥ [SB 1.8.26], to become moneyed, that also requires background. Pūrva*-janmārjitaṁ dhanam. So they are born in rich country; that is due to their past pious deeds. Yes. There is no doubt. Yes. Now I request them that "You have got everything. You take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then you are perfect." Guest (1): We have degraded ourself to such an extent... Prabhupāda: No, we can rise immediately. Guest (1): Yes yes, but foundation stone is there. City is there... Prabhupāda: Foundation or no foundation, but we'll not agree. That is the difficulty. We'll not agree. Guest (1): It's a difficult job, but it has to be done because I... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. Kṛṣṇa says, Guest (1): Eventually they will come around, but it will take time. *Prabhupāda: No, the leaders are not... Because their position will be finished, the so*-called leaders. They want to keep in ignorance the mass of people so their foolish leadership may go on continually. That is everywhere. [break] ...learn this philosophy and preach. That is the best service. Guest (2): My son who lives in America is very Westernized, and as he picked up *Gītā*, and he tried to understand it. Now he now is so much a follower of *Gītā* that every single letter he quotes *Gītā* to anyone whom he writes. Prabhupāda: Which *Gītā* he has read? Guest (2): He's very convinced about it. Prabhupāda: No no, which *Gītā* he has read? Guest (2): Your *Gītā*. Prabhupāda: My *Gītā*? Guest (2): Your *Gītā* and Cinmayananda's, two Gītās. Prabhupāda: Cinmayananda is atheist. Atheist. He does not believe in Kṛṣṇa. *Guest (2): He has donated over three hundred books in that haṭha*-yoga, that can... Guest (1): Yes, in U.S.A., Santa Cruz. Prabhupāda: Yes, he took some lakhs of rupees from Birla for distributing the *Gītā*. I know that. Guest (2): He has also translated *Gītā*. Guest (1): Shh! Swamiji's saying is this, that *Gītā* is interpreted by different people in different way. That is true. Understanding of *Gītā* is a very big... *Prabhupāda: He does not present Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. According to his own whims... But the original śloka is there. Guest (1): But interpretation is his own. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): Original śloka, of course, everybody would put. Then they interpret in their own way. I think, sir, most of us are accepted through this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, as you have rightly said. Prabhupāda: What is the public opinion? Guest (1): Public opinion, people like us who have been abroad for, say, quarter of a century or so... I have been to the States. I almost go every year. And this is the right thing. This is the right thing. When I was child, about fifteen, I went to Japan, and all my life I am abroad. This is the right thing. This is simple. It's only a matter of conviction. If you have faith, then everything becomes quite all right. There is nothing much that is extraordinary that could not be done. It's a pure, simple, good life. Get up early in the morning. Prabhupāda: (aside:) They supply water regularly. Devotee: Yes. Guest (1): Here Indians don't get up early in the morning. All our forefathers did. The people, most of them would be snoring? No. [break] Prabhupāda: Two days I had been in Mahabaleshwar, and our host was sleeping. (laughter) So I asked them, "Let us go immediately, otherwise we'll be infected." (laughter) So I left that place. Guest (1): A normal day of life... Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's five to seven. You can go down now. [break] Hari-śauri: Will you be speaking this morning Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? No. [break] Guest (1): One question is almost complete, and they have become sort of influence of (Hindi) reception or whatever name you call it. Guest (2): Why have you said Cinmayananda, atheist? Prabhupāda: There are so many statements. In his book there are so many statements. Does he recommend to worship Kṛṣṇa? Guest (1): Does he recommend to worship Śrī Kṛṣṇa? Guest (2): I don't know. I have not read... Prabhupāda: So then why you are asking about him? (laughter) Guest (2): No, my point is he is preaching religion... Prabhupāda: He is nonsense. You do not know about him, and you are asking about him. That is the pity. If you know about him, then speak. Guest (2): No, I don't know enough about him. Prabhupāda: Then why you are recommending? Then why you are recommending? Guest (2): But he's preaching religion. Prabhupāda: That means you don't know religion. Guest (1): He is preaching *Gītā*, that's true, but as Swamiji says, that is interpretation of his own. Original words are there. Everybody who speaks about *Gītā*... Prabhupāda: Religion is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. But he does not recommend to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. What does he know about Kṛṣṇa? That is the difficulty. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, what is religion, and he is preaching religion? Guest (1): He's supposed to be one of the biggest propagator of *Gītā*. He had Gītāra jñāna yajña in Bombay. There were thousands of people there. Prabhupāda: False, everything false. Misled. He does not recognize Kṛṣṇa, he does not recognize religion, and he is religious. Guest (1): One of the best religious leaders. That's what people think. *Prabhupāda: No, no, that may be, falsely representation, but where he is recommending that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa and worship Him"? Has he done that? That means misleading. He can become a very good orator, and he can get claps, but what is the benefit? He's a good orator, there is no doubt about it. But Kṛṣṇa does not say that "You become a orator and cheat others." He does not say. He says, "Surrender unto Me." So if actually one is preaching, he should teach the audience that "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." And that is reading of Bhagavad*-gītā. If I take Bhagavad-gītā and speak something of my opinion, that means I am cheating. I am taking advantage of Bhagavad-gītā, and I am impressing people with my nonsense ideas. Guest (1): That's right. *Prabhupāda: If you want to cheat others, you cheat in your own way. Why do you take Bhagavad*-gītā? *Guest (1): Don't take the protection of Bhagavad*-gītā. That is doubly wrong. Prabhupāda: That is great cheating, great cheating. *Guest (1): In the name of Bhagavad*-gītā... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): ...one should not... Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Everyone is doing that. Guest (1): Yes. We have many propagations of *Gītā* in this country. *Prabhupāda: He is preaching his own ideas and taking Bhagavad*-gītā. *Guest (1): Under the umbrella of Bhagavad*-gītā he does it. Prabhupāda: Smoking gāñjā with a friend's hand because there is smell, so the friend's hand will smell. (Hindi) (laughter) This is going on. (Hindi) Guest (1): There will be immediate protest the moment... This film has got the connotation that Hare Kṛṣṇa means... Now, these boys, by their own conduct and by their own hard work, whosoever has come into contact with them have realized that this is genuine and actually... Prabhupāda: No, you see, something cheating which is going on for long time, to stop it, it will take some time. *Guest (1): Yes. Unless and until the people who are well*-to-do... Prabhupāda: We have got one little test. You can also use that. Kṛṣṇa says, *Guest (2): A friend of mine has surrendered to Cinmayananda. He says he is giving Bhagavad*-gītā four hours a day, it is, not for surrendering. Prabhupāda: But not for surrendering. *Guest (2): "He is using the Bhagavad*-gītā for our day to life." I said to him, "Why? Why can't you (indistinct)," but not surrendering as Swamiji has said. *Prabhupāda: So they have made their own meaning. "Bhagavad*-gītā is not meant for surrender." Just see. (end) *Room Conversationwith Mr. Tombe (M.L.A.)-*-December 25, 1976, Bombay Mr. Tombe: After all, even if it is thrown out... *Prabhupāda: That is also answered in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam by very strong word. Bhāgavata says, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. If the public is like dogs, camels, hogs, and asses, so what is the value of their election? He'll elect another big dog or camel. So there is chaos. Mr. Tombe: Then how to throw out good leadership? Prabhupāda: Yes. Good leadership means you must learn how to lead people. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. If the śreṣṭha, the leader is ideal, then others will follow. But if the leader is not ideal, if he is not in the awareness of things, then people will be misguided. Mr. Tombe: So how can we chalk out a program of, say, training of leaders from the villages... *Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to take lessons from the biggest leader, Kṛṣṇa. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. He's the leader of the demigods also. We have to take lesson from... That lesson is there, Bhagavad*-gītā. But we do not take it. We manufacture our leadership. That is the defect. What Kṛṣṇa said... Everyone is proud of reading Bhagavad-gītā, but the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā is how to kill Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That is their... All these. What can I say? These misleaders, they are doing that. Leadership is already there. Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is learning from Kṛṣṇa. So if you learn from Kṛṣṇa you become perfect leader. But we do not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. We manufacture our own ideas. That is failure. Otherwise in our country so many learned sages, especially Kṛṣṇa is there, and their books are there, their instructions are there. We do not take them. Still we become leader. So what kind of leading? He's imperfect. So he cannot lead. Then there will be some mistake and chaos. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said... He said bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. You understand little Bengali? Mr. Tombe: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Then things will be perfect. India, if the whole world can be saved from this chaotic position, India can do. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. But that India leaders first of all make his life perfect. Then it will be all right. Just like our... Of course, I'm not proud, but I am alone. I started this movement alone, without any help. But because I am giving them the perfect information, whole world is taking it. Otherwise, from practical point of view, one man without any help, within ten years he cannot do like this. That's a fact. But I have no difficulty because I am following the Supreme Leader, Kṛṣṇa. People may say that I've done wonderful, but there is nothing magic. Because I am following Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Leader, so far it has become successful. So everyone can do that. Where is the difficulty? Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. If we follow the paramparā system it is not difficult. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These are all of Prabhupāda's books. Eighty books. *Prabhupāda: Eighty*-four books we have, I have written within ten years. And our publication house, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the first in the world for publishing religious and philosophical books. We are selling not less than six lakhs worth books daily. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, publishing division. Mr. Tombe: I have got only a few of them now. I would like to pick up... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here, these are... We only have sample copies in India. So I'll tell Girirāja to bring you some. These are only sample copies for Prabhupāda's display. (end) *Morning Walkand Room Conversation-*-December 26, 1976, Bombay Devotee (1): I have just come from America, and at the universities, lots of times there are many questions concerning evolution and I was curious about what our position is in terms of artifacts. Bones like dinosaur bones and things like that that the scientists say they found. Prabhupāda: Scientists are rascals. Those who are following Darwin. What is their theory? *Devotee (1): They maintain that from the oceans came one*-celled animals. Then from these one-celled animals, they developed into fish and then reptiles. And then these reptiles became very big dinosaurs, and they have put together many big museums. For instance, in Washington the Smithsonian Museum has many, many big bones put together and they date these millions of years ago. *Prabhupāda: So we have got also the same theory. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. [break] ...within water. So where is the difference? We also admit the forms of life begins from the ocean. Then plants. As soon as the water is dried, there are plants, trees. Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. Sthāvara means "the life which cannot move." So the trees, plants, grass, they cannot move. Then insects, then reptiles, then birds, then beast, then human being. In this way the living entity is changing body. So what is the difficulty? Devotee (1): But they say that the human body developed right from these other bodies. In other words... Prabhupāda: Evolution, from beast human body has come. That is the difference? Even there is difference, what is the idea? Devotee (1): Well, they maintain that therefore man was not created by God, but simply by chemicals. Prabhupāda: Rascals! Wherefrom the life came first? Wherefrom the life came from? When you find life in the water, wherefrom this life came? Devotee (1): They say originally it came from chemicals that came together. Prabhupāda: Rascal! Create from chemicals. Otherwise, beat them with shoes in their mouth. Why you talk nonsense? Create from chemicals, life. [break] What do they say? Devotee (1): They say they're working on it. Prabhupāda: Then be beaten with shoes. When you're successful, then say. Otherwise, I shall beat you with shoes. That's all. That is your punishment. You have not come to the experimental stage, and you are talking, "This is science." Science is experiment and observation. Unless the experiment is practical, practical science... It will be accepted as science when the experiment is successful. Not before that. That is scientific method. First of all, observe. It may be happening like this. But that "maybe" should be confirmed by experiment. Then it is science. Even in colleges there is practical examination. Theoretical and practical. So unless... "We are trying." Everyone will say, "I am trying." "I am trying to become millionaire." When you become millionaire, then say that you are millionaire. You are trying for becoming millionaire and you say, "I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? Huh? Devotee (1): Yes. No one has ever observed the life coming from matter. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just prove that life comes from chemicals. How is that? "I am trying to be millionaire, therefore I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? You are trying to create from chemicals. Therefore you are scientist. What's this kind of scientist? Beat them with shoes. That's all. *Guest (1) (Indian man): I have a researcher in our family, and he thinks the theory of evolution is the daśa*-avatāra. Prabhupāda: You can think like that. Your thinking has no value. Guest (1): No, not my thinking. Prabhupāda: Then don't say, "I am thinking." Guest (1): No, I said I have a researcher in my family, he thinks. Prabhupāda: What research? He's a rascal also! *Guest (1): No, but he thinks the daśa*-avatāra... Prabhupāda: "He thinks," means he's a rascal. Nothing to be think. It must be from the śāstra. Guest (1): Is there any evidence in śāstra that I can look? Prabhupāda: What is that? *Guest (1): The daśa*-avatāras, that the first was Matsya and then Kūrma and Varāha, and finally... Prabhupāda: That is God's pastime. He becomes like this, like that. It is not evolution. Guru dāsa: God is not so morphic. He's not an animal. Just like we're in this room but we don't become part of the room. [break] Śrutaśrava: ...so clear, but they refuse to accept it cause if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense. You make all these things so crystal clear, but they refuse to accept because if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense. Prabhupāda: Refusal, let them refuse, and who cares for them? Guru dāsa: Actually, if they were successful in any experiment they would be out of a job. So they actually want material life, scientists. Prabhupāda: And now what is their science? This is science that "We are trying." What is this nonsense science? Do you think this is science? "We are trying." Everyone can say, "I'm trying." Is that science? Then? Any rascal can say that "I am trying." Is that science? *Amogha*-līlā: I heard that you had quoted a saying that anyone who goes to Laṅkā becomes a Rāvaṇa, and that similarly, when the devotees come to India, they become Rāvaṇa. I wonder if you would explain that or elaborate or explain how we can avoid this sort of thing happening. [break] Prabhupāda: Ask the leaders! I was talking that in all our other branches, our men manage the cooking and kitchen and as soon as they come here, they become varalasai. (?) That is Rāvaṇa. Why do they not do here? We have to keep some cook who is neither initiated, nor very clean, a smoker, and we have to keep them. [break] In all other branches, the boys and girls, they manage everything. [break] *Amogha*-līlā: ...follow the regulations more strictly? Prabhupāda: That I have to say again? That means Rāvaṇa. He's asking. I am repeatedly saying that follow, and he's asking. That means he's Rāvaṇa. Why you are inquiring like that. If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? That means Rāvaṇa. If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? [break] Śrutaśrava: ...one week ago and in just four days time the devotees there have distributed over one lakh of Back To Godhead magazines in just four days. Prabhupāda: But you do not do here. Huh? That means Rāvaṇa. (laughter) [break] ...to become less intelligent, less active, and therefore I say, yāya sei laṅkā sei haya rāvaṇa,(?) "Anyone who comes to Laṅkā, he becomes Rāvaṇa." Guest (1): Their promotion in local language would be very helpful. Prabhupāda: No, in India will purchase English magazine, he knows English. Guest (1): Yes he knows, but the popularity will be much more in the Hindi and Gujarati and Marathi speaking people, Bengali speaking. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is for you, Indians. But you have no time. You are busy with your daughter's marriage, and you simply advise. Guest (1): I am busy? Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. Every Indian is busy with his own affair, he'll come and advise. That's all. Advise gratis. But he will not do himself. Guest (1): No, but... Prabhupāda: No, this is going... I have got full experience, that Indians, they will come and give some advice, and go away for daughter's marriage. That's all. Guest (1): Well there are various types of Indians, you know. Prabhupāda: That type of, 99%. Guru dāsa: Just like 99% of us become lazy when we come to India. *Prabhupāda: You'll advise, but you'll never do it. That is going on. [break] ...elephants dance, and we see. This is Indian policy. These white elephants, they'll come and dance, and you'll see. And you are busy with your daughter's marriage. That's all. [break] ...means vairāgya*-vidyā. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. Nobody can become a bhakta unless he has disgusted with material life. "I shall do this, I shall do that." And he'll never do bhakti-yoga. That's all. This is not possible. [break] Before leaving my family life I wanted to get my all sons and daughters married, but some of them disagreed, some of them... My wife disagreed. Let them go to hell, I don't care. Time is up. Never mind you are married or not married. Then see your own business. [break] I or you, then who will take care of the marriage of your daughter? Suppose you die immediately? Then who will take care? Guest (1): God will give them... *Prabhupāda: Then why don't you do that now? God will take care. It is called, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "civil suicide." Civil suicide. Just like if you commit suicide, that is criminal. But this is voluntarily committing suicide. Now I am dead. Whatever you like, you do. So we have to commit civil suicide if we are actually attached to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya... [Bg. 18.66]. That is gṛha-dharma. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up that." But that attachment is there. I do not think... Suppose I die immediately. Who will take care of my daughter? At that time we say "God." And why not now? Guest (1): That feeling of attachment one has to give up gradually. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we cannot do because the attachment is there. That is the symptom. Guest (1): Saṅkīrtana will help give up the attachment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore wherever you stay, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will help. Thākā ekhana pāiyā.(?) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, try for the daughter's marriage. That will help. [break] Guest (1): Civil suicide is a good thought. Prabhupāda: That is the thought only. Oh, Doctor comes. Dr. Patel: I asked him where you were and he said that you are on the roof. Prabhupāda: Jaya. (Hindi) [break] I do not know. [break] Dr. Patel: You agreed, huh? (indistinct) is coming. Prabhupāda: I am going within four days. Dr. Patel: You go, find out what you... and then communicate with you. Huh? Prabhupāda: No, you asked me to stay at least a few days.(?) Dr. Patel: But you must stay, if you don't stay, you can't stay, I have got not power to keep you. If you will stay, well and good. If you can't even, well I will try our best to inform you what should be done in four days. Hm? Prabhupāda: Let God do whatever He likes. Dr. Patel: God will be do it through us. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] (Hindi) Dr. Patel: But whatever you do... (laughs) You do not know... Prabhupāda: No, whatever is there is there. Let it remain. They also require some shelter. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Why you are getting swelling or whether weakness of the heart. There are various reasons why did you get the swelling of he leg you know. We must find out by biochemical examination of the internal flesh. Such as the blood, urine, and stool, and put you on the right information. Now if you follow or not is your own sweet will, sir. *Prabhupāda: Nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ, bālasya neha pitarau śaraṇaṁ nṛsiṁha. Na ārtasya ca agadam. Tāvad vibho tanu*-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām [SB 7.9.19]. If Kṛṣṇa neglects somebody then these things will not help. Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa never neglects anybody. You have told once so. It is we, our own actions which we, I mean, forget. We get. If you walk too much you get tired. If you sit down you do not. If you walk then there is swelling of the leg, sir. Eh? So it is not Kṛṣṇa. I mean, this is your own saying, eh? I am not manufacturing my own arguments. Prabhupāda: No, the śāstra says, nārtasya cāga... There is no guarantee. But we may try but there is no guarantee. Dr. Patel: This is the play of māyā, that we all know. But so long as we are in māyā we have to play our part, haven't we? Prabhupāda: But it is supposition, the pathologist. Dr. Patel: No, I am going to bring. That was myself. Prabhupāda: He'll take blood, he'll take this, he'll take that. So that is another trouble. (chuckles) Dr. Patel: No, no, but why should you have a minus on blood? Why should you have minus and whose blood is it? This is your own argument sir, I am very sorry. Prabhupāda: No, no... Dr. Patel: Nothing is ours, the body is not ours. Prabhupāda: When you take blood, there is... Dr. Patel: Not of that... Prabhupāda: No, no, not that, but I feel... Dr. Patel: How you feel? You are a soul! The body feels, you do not feel. Now we are talking about the philosophy. Prabhupāda: I am not a liberated person. Dr. Patel: You are liberated soul, we are following you. There are many others, sir otherwise we would not have come behind you. So sir, that is not right. And I think I have got a right to prevail upon you. Have I or have I not? Tell me that, or I'll run away back again. [break] ...its not full. Who knows? We may be liberated in past birth. That is how I come. Prabhupāda: That's fine. That's your process. You are trying to do something for the disease. Dr. Patel: You see we must know exactly what is happening. After all, science is the same with the āyurvedic or allopathic or any. Science is... I mean, advancement of man's evolution of the man's understanding about things. Prabhupāda: I say but somebody says that... What is the medicine? I take some āyurvedic medicine. Dr. Patel: No, you do take. We don't say no. You don't take any medicine, we know exactly where you stand, as the modern science explains us. [break] Well, he may not (indistinct) truth immediately, but that is his aim. Prabhupāda: Now I am feeling some dizziness. Dr. Patel: Sit down, you sit down. Prabhupāda: Where is that sitting place? Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Go down. [break] Prabhupāda: Harer nāma eva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] ...is a big tank of Calcutta Gas Company. That looks like this. Dr. Patel: We have got also tank like this in Bombay. We have also gas company tanks. It's in (indistinct). We have bigger tanks here of the petroleum companies. Huge tanks, petroleum tanks. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: When I was in Northern Ireland preaching, they blew it up. The gas tank, by bombs. They blew the whole gas tank up. Prabhupāda: Where? Guru dāsa: In Northern Ireland, Belfast. Dr. Patel: Those terrorists. Prabhupāda: It was here. Who has taken? Guru dāsa: It is coming now. Āsana, āsana. [break] Prabhupāda: The others, others is not. Devotee (2): The other seat got taken away, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for cleaning. For making it clean. Devotee (1): We can get mattresses from your room and a pillow if you'd like to sit down. Prabhupāda: No, no, this is all right. [break] Dr. Patel: Only tired feel? [break] ...or may be due to poverty of heart action, or it may be due to some inaction on the part of the kidney or some collection of some obnoxious substances in the blood. That is why we must have an analysis done. So for a right understanding, we can advise you what to do. Anyone can write analysis, acidity and (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Now, everything is less. Dr. Patel: Then you stay here. And you're completely home, without anything. You are not prepared to... This is... Prabhupāda: As soon as this building is, I will take. (?) Dr. Patel: We listen to you, but you don't listen. That is the misfortune of ours. Huh? Prabhupāda: Actually, I have got so many engagements. Actually, I have got engagement in Bhuvaneśvara... Dr. Patel: And you are going to Bhuvaneśvara after fifteen days, no? Prabhupāda: ...Calcutta, in Allahabad, then Māyāpura, then Vṛndāvana, then Bombay. Dr. Patel: So to make you fit to go round, you must do something. It's very logical. Guru dāsa: "Penny wise, pound foolish." Dr. Patel: So let pound be wise for the penny foolish. If you do in right path then you may not break down like (indistinct) getting all this trouble. [break] ...at least for four, five days. We don't want any more. In one day we will find out what to, how to, this will be cured. I don't mean medicine, but even advice, food, this, that, other things. If you get rid of the medicine, well, all medicines are, I mean, synthetics. They are not produced from animals. Many of them. [break] Prabhupāda: Harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] ...that sound all the time. (sounds of birds) Girirāja: Do they have many birds in Bhuvaneśvara? Prabhupāda: Wherever there are nice trees, there will be birds. Guru dāsa: Girirāja is asking, he thinks there are more birds in Bombay than in Bhuvaneśvara. Girirāja Prabhu is stating there is more birds in Bombay. Dr. Patel: There are more crows in Bombay than any other place. (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, no. They are also birds. Dr. Patel: There are very more filthier, for the crows, to clean. Guru dāsa: So Prabhupāda should go then. Dr. Patel: No, you see, if the good people is there, up there, you know the filth disappears. Guru dāsa: That's what the śāstra says. The sun dries up urine in a filthy place. Dr. Patel: So he must be here. Another argument and he will answer. Guru dāsa: Yes, but there is also urine in Bhuvaneśvara. Indian doctor. In Bhuvaneśvara you are going to have any plan for making a temple? Prabhupāda: What is my plan, that is always there. That is to print books and construct temples. Throughout the whole world this plan is going on. Fifty percent construction, fifty percent printing books. Whatever I get money, I give him. That's all. I am the same beggar. Either it comes ten lakhs or fifty lakhs, ten crores. Dr. Patel: You are exhibiting this body to be "I". Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam akledyo 'śoṣya eva ca. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is different. Dr. Patel: You come down to body consciousness and talk to us. We want you to talk from higher consciousness. Prabhupāda: I have no higher consciousness. Dr. Patel: Then talk from the lower consciousness, still lower. Prabhupāda: Why should I? Dr. Patel: Let us go out and make a business in the stock market. Prabhupāda: I am doing business. I am selling books. (laughter) Dr. Patel: Stock action. Why not. It is very easy. Prabhupāda: I am selling books. Dr. Patel: Why not a Wall Street operation? It is very easy. Prabhupāda: They are all engaged in doing business. Dr. Patel: Have you wanted a businessman to come? Prabhupāda: I am doing business. Guest (3): (Hindi) Dr. Patel: We can still make a bigger business in Wall Street. Have a Wall Street here in Bombay and... (laughs) Prabhupāda: You are criticizing the bāniyās. The bāniyās criticize the doctor. (laughter) Dr. Patel: And doctor criticizes you. Prabhupāda: Bāniyās say, they say, nal jal jachuri tene dhaturi.(?) Dr. Patel: Nal jal? Prabhupāda: Jachuri.(?) Dr. Patel: Jachuri means? Prabhupāda: Cheating. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Or all cheating words. Dr. Patel: But according to our śāstra, it is so. Prabhupāda: No, no, this is according to bāniyā, the doctor is calculated... Dr. Patel: Bāniyā is right in the way. Bāniyā is right. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Dr. Patel: In Bengali. Prabhupāda: In Bengali village there are many quacks. You know that. Everywhere. (laughter) So what their business? Nal jal yachuri tene dhaturi.(?) *Dr. Patel: In Mahābhārata in Vidura*-nīti, Vidura has mentioned that a doctor should not be trusted and should not be allowed to come in the house. I am reading presently that part of Mahābhārata. Why? Because they must be right from the beginning all the times also they must be of the same type. Prabhupāda: Another place, Vaiṣṇava says, either he is businessman, or doctor, anyone, they are all madmen. Dr. Patel: Modern scientists don't say that we can make the soul. Soul is permanent in every man. Prabhupāda: No, the rascals say, "We can create." So that rascal, number of that rascal is more. They are saying, bluffing, that "Now we shall create chemicals. We are trying." This is going on. Just this morning he was saying. Dr. Patel: It is the theory of these people I think that... Guest (4): Communists. Dr. Patel: Communists. Prabhupāda: That means rascalism. Not a single soul has been created till now and these rascals are claiming that they are going... And they are scientists. We have to accept them as scientists. Just see. This is... Not only now. One gentleman, one big doctor, chemist, he has got Nobel Prize, he came to California and our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, he was in the also in the university, he's also doctor and chemist. So he was speaking on the chemical evolution. So he's my student, he challenged him, that, "If I give you chemicals, can you prepare life?" "That I cannot say." Dr. Patel: Even a living cell of life... Prabhupāda: No, it was meeting. When Svarūpa Dāmodara challenged him, that "Suppose I give you the chemicals, right chemicals. Can you prepare a life?" Then he said, "That I cannot say." Why? Why do you say nonsense? Dr. Patel: But their definition of life is very meager. They say that life is a chemical imbalance, a state of chemical imbalance. That is wrong. Life is something higher than... *Prabhupāda: Therefore these chemists*-they are predominating-so how it is possible to take their version? Ayi. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...a simple version of Vaiṣṇava. Devotee (2): From London. Prabhupāda: Oh. You are Englishman? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Stay here. We want some Englishmen. (laughter) No. We want Englishmen, Australian, Canadian, because they have no visa problem. Dr. Patel: American will have no visa problem very soon. Guru dāsa: Why? Dr. Patel: There is no question why. We'll understand it. Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. So the visa problem is a great problem for us because in India for conducting our movement, we have to import the white men. Our Indians, they are not joining. So that is a great problem for me. They have to come, and they have to go again. And each time, coming and going, ten thousand rupees. And that is happening at least for hundred cases every year. Ten thousand, hundred times. Just imagine. This is my economic problem. Therefore I'm asking, "If you are Englishman, please stay." Because here, in India, they will see that "The white man dancing, let us see." They will never join. They are busy with their own affairs. They will advise, "Do this, do that," but they will never come. This is my position. Practical. Therefore I'm begging the Englishmen, the Canadians, the Australians, "Please come and stay." Because huge establishment, who will manage? I am managing with them, but there is economic question. For each person I have to spend ten thousand rupees at least and such hundred case... This is the position. The Indians are not interested. They are not interested. Dr.Patel: You are firing everyone, so they run away. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What can be done? This is real position. Dr. Patel: Only I am a fool, not running away. (laughter) He says, Prabhupāda, "You rascals..." Prabhupāda: Everyone may be a fool, but if he continues to remain a fool, that is very bad. (laughter) Dr. Patel: A fool is a fool always. He cannot change his... *Prabhupāda: More or less everyone of us, we are fool, mūḍha. Kṛṣṇa has stated mūḍha, mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. He has chastised like anything. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān [Bg. 16.19]. So anyone who's not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is within these categories: duṣkṛtina, narādhama, mūḍha, māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is Indian movement, but na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. They are not taking seriously. That is the position. It is our movement. Kṛṣṇa came in India and because India is so glorified place, puṇya-bhūmi, even the demigods they desire. Not India, this planet, Bhāratavarṣa. Formerly, the whole Bhāratavarṣa means whole planet. Anyway, for the time it is now minimized. So it is not ordinary land. So our men, they are not interested in such great movement. How much regrettable it is. And who are they? Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. If you speak the truth, then you take the quotation of Kṛṣṇa. Now every Indian should take part in this great movement. Every Indian. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. *Dr. Patel: Deva*-bhūmi, deva-bhūmi. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: So they came, and we are there in the knowledge already. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Time hogya? (?)You can sit down here? No? Girirāja: I feel this is important. *Prabhupāda: All right. So, sab bhārata-varṣī, young men, jitna hai. (Hindi) movement (Hindi) seriously. It is not ordinary movement. Cheating movement naiye. This is real movement. Kṛṣṇa, what Kṛṣṇa is speaking, what Caitanya Mahāprabhu is speaking, that is not cheating. That is real solution of the problem. So we have taken the business of Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So every intelligent person, intelligent young man... Now we have got... We have got everywhere, but especially now in Bombay-it is important city*-we have constructed this. We can keep at least five hundred, six hundred men in these buildings. But who is coming? Nobody's coming. Dr. Patel: If they all come then it will be difficult for you. *Prabhupāda: Then let them come first of all. (laughter) There is no "if." There is sufficient place. Come. But nobody's coming. They want to see, "Let these white men come and we see." That's all. "We see the fun." This is going on. They are coming. They are disgusted. But we are not disgusted. That is the difficulty. Therefore I was speaking to this boy, "You are Englishman, you have come." It's a problem now in Māyāpura, here. And the government is after them as soon as three months pass. "Get out, get out, get out, get out." Then how shall I conduct my business? A big, big establishment. This is another problem. But Kṛṣṇa is doing His own business. But practically seeing. This is India's business. Bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. Manuṣya-janma, not the cats and dogs, but those who have taken the human form. It is their business. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41], janma sārthaka-First of all, make your life successful by understanding the philosophy. Then, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra, preach this philosophy all over the world. That is para-upakāra. So actually that is being done. They understand, they are understanding this philosophy. There is struggle now in foreign countries. There is opposition now. Who will explain what is the opposition? Girirāja: Today we just got a new package from New York from this boy. And some of the parents were charging that we were kidnapping and mentally imprisoning their children by making them devotees. Because from their point of view their children were lost to our movement. So... Prabhupāda: He's a lost child. His father and mother came to me and mother was crying. I said, "So take your son." And the son will not go. (laughter) Dr. Patel: You are washing away their brains. Prabhupāda: (laughing) So they are charging like that. What is the new charge? Huh? Śrutaśrava: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are saying "mind control." Prabhupāda: (laughing) "Mind control." Yes. *Śrutaśrava: Śrīla Prabhupāda, so many, all the big scholars in America, all the big famous scholars, they have put together one petition saying how authorized our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is. And they are willing to come forward now. If any time they want some papers in the court*-room to show how bona fide our movement is, how we are actually not brainwashers and mind-controlled, there are these scholars in America, they have pledged their support. Girirāja: There was a meeting of four big scholars at Harvard University, it's like the Oxford of America. And one famous theologian named Cox... Prabhupāda: Harvey Cox? Girirāja: Yes and Kīrtanānanda Swami. His books are very famous. And they have brought up this issue, freedom of religion, that this is a bona fide religious movement and we should have freedom to worship. Then there's also a letter from a member of the World Fellowship of Religion and he is also saying that he takes this very seriously and very grave that such a bona fide movement is not being allowed to practice their religion freely. And then there's one Professor Sharma at one American University, and he is... Prabhupāda: Sharma or Sukla? *Girirāja: No, another one. Not Sukla. And this Sharma is saying that he has personal experience that this is a bona fide movement and that the American public in general may not know, but A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is one of the renowned writers of translations of Vedic translations and commentaries of Vedic literature. [break] And then Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja is going with a swami? Chandra Swami, some Indian swami in America. He's going with Ādi-keśava Mahārāja to meet the new President of the United States on January 27th. Prabhupāda: He's going to see? *Girirāja: Yes, Jimmy Carter. On January 20th he will become the next President. So Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja and this one Indian sannyāsī, they are going to make a representation to the new President. Prabhupāda: Who is that Indian swami? Śrutaśrava: His name is Chandra Swami. Prabhupāda: Chandra Swami? So why...? Guest (4): He's a young man. Prabhupāda: He must be Māyāvādī. He's taking advantage of this. He's a Māyāvādī. Guest (4): He's a man who is following Tantric. Prabhupāda: So what is this nonsense. This should not be... He should not accompany. He's taking advantage of it. Guest (4): He's also directly associated with the Prime Minister, this young man. Chandra Swami. Dr. Patel: The Prime Minister is the greatest Māyāvādī. *Prabhupāda: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna. Māyāvādī means māyā has taken his knowledge. māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. 99% they are Māyāvādīs. Guest (4): Swamiji, what about missionaries who are working in India who are coming from abroad and they are actually exploiting. If they put a charge against our institution, well, we can definitely say that we are motivating the intellect to take into the higher stage of life. Here the missionaries who come, they go in the backward areas and those who are not learned, those who are practically uneducated... I mean, their mission is to convert them in Christianity. You see, that charge is rather more grave than the particular one which they have leveled against us. You see, we can put that argument, isn't it? How many Hindus are converted into Christianity. We are not converting them, we are just... *Prabhupāda: Our case is not that we are going to convert one Hindu to Christian, or Christian to Hindu. There is no meaning. Our is, sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Even if you are Hindu, even you are Muslim, you are Christian, kick it out. That is our movement. We do not advocate that "You are Christian, you become Hindu." Or "You are Hindu, you become..." They are taking like that. But our movement is not that. Guest (4): That's what I say. *Prabhupāda: Our movement is, either you are Hindu, either you are Muslim, either you are Christian, you kick out all this. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya. Simply you become surrendered to Kṛṣṇa or God. This is our... And anyone who can do that, he is first-class religious. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. Adhokṣaja, God's name is Adhokṣaja. You cannot see Him beyond your material perception. So if you are trained up to surrender to God, then you are religious. We do not say that you become Hindu or Muslim or Christian or this or that. We do not say so. Dr. Patel: But all Christians, if they truly are... I mean Hindus, that Christ... Prabhupāda: No, either he become Hindus. That does not mean the Hindus are perfect. We do not mean that. Even if he becomes Hindu, what is the benefit? No benefit. Dr. Patel: No. Even he becomes a Christian, there is no benefit. *Prabhupāda: I say any religious stamp, material, there is no benefit. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. You have to give up all these designations. And bhakti, love of Godhead, or service to God, begins when you are relieved from these designations. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When becoming God conscious, you become completely purified, then your devotional life begins. And so long you are entangled with this designation, there is no question of devotional service. Either you Hindu or Muslim or Christian, it doesn't matter. So our business is not that, that we convert a Hindu to a Christian or a Christian to a Hindu. That is not our business. They are thinking, because we dress like that, with tilaka, with māla, they think Hindu. But it's not our business to convert the Christians to become Hindus, as all other missionaries, they are doing. They are trying to increasing the number of Christian or Hindus. So our... There is no question of increasing. It is very difficult to accept. *Guest (4): During the Kumbha*-mela we are having our rāma-kṣetra to serve the sādhus directly. We always started our camp on 21st December to last after tenth of February. If Mahārāja and all other devotees, they can definitely offer free arrangements over there because we have got the best camp. We have got the best camp. Prabhupāda: Why should we spend for our camp? (laughter) Guest (4): We are just on the bed of the river, far away from the mela, which is about three, four... We have our āśramas at various places, you know. Prabhupāda: What is this philosophy? What is the philosophy? Guest (4): Philosophy is bhajana of the Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: But whether you recognize Kṛṣṇa... Dr. Patel: Yes sir, he was our guru. We have published a book from the Calcutta University, so just take your remise. Leave the book for you. Prabhupāda: Oh, this is for me? Bheṭiye, bheṭiye.(?) Vedānta philosophy (Hindi) Let us discuss. What is Vedānta philosophy? Let us discuss something. You belong to this camp, so what is Vedānta? Guest (4): Ādi Śaṅkarācārya's preaching, actually defining God as what he thought. Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning? Everyone can think of God according to his whim. You say, "As he thought." That is not standard. Guest (4): So, what he describes... Prabhupāda: No, first of all, let us... Whether if you think of God in your own way, is that valid or not? Guest (4): Because he has given a thought to it you know. He has thought over it. *Prabhupāda: Anything, might be the first*-class thought, but do you think that any man can think of God and create God? Do you think it is all right? Guest (4): Well we are guided by those who have given a thought to it and who have meditated actually. Prabhupāda: You said that "As he thought." Guest (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: So God is unlimited and you are limited. So how you can think of God? Guest (4): You see I'll just quote one of his stanzas which reveal... Prabhupāda: I am talking... Guest (4): I understand your point of view, but I'm just, to your holiness, in the last stanza of his advaita philosophy, he says, ahaṁ nirvikalpo nirākāra rūpa vibhur apya sarvatra sarvendriyāṇi sadame sama...(?) Prabhupāda: Who says "aham"? Guest (4): Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: That means a person is thinking of God. So that is my point, whether an individual person can think of God and ascertain that "Here is God." Guest (4): He comes to that particular conclusion though, your holiness, he says that ahaṁ nirvikalpa nirākāra rūpa... Prabhupāda: So nirākāra... If you are speaking, then how he can become nirākāra? Guest (4): He actually defines what prevails in the universe, what is that element which governs us. Prabhupāda: Let us just discuss from the point. As you say, that I think and I speak, so when you speak, when you think, whether you are nirākāra or ākāra. Guest (4): He defines, ultimately, after all thinking... Prabhupāda: I am asking you. Guest (4): He has come to that conclusion. Prabhupāda: I'm asking you that when you think, when you... What is that other thing? Speak. So can anybody who is nirākāra, he can think and speak? Is there any experience? So what is the use of talking like that? Dr. Patel: Thinking is done by the mind and mind is not soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. So, no, whatever it may be. If I think, if I speak, I am ākāra. I'm not nirākāra. And that is for everyone. This is contra... Guest (4): What is that "everyone"? Prabhupāda: What it may be. First come to the platform of understanding. As soon as I think, I speak, this speaking, I'm thinking, is not coming from nirākāra. Guest (4): But what is that "I"? Prabhupāda: I means, what do you mean by I? I am person, you are person. When I say, "I say," you say that we are person. So how you can say nirākāra? It must be common knowledge. When I say, "I speak," that is not nirākāra. How it can be nirākāra? It is contradictory. Guest (4): It is not contradictory. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is contradictory. Unless you have got a personality, you cannot speak, you cannot think. So how it is nirākāra? That is my first point. Kṛṣṇa says, "aham." He is person. We worship Kṛṣṇa as person. He says, aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. That "aham," He's person. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa as person because he says aham ādir hi devānām. Dr. Patel: He means to say, sir, that the māyākāra is not there. But the divyākāra is there as we say. Let us understand him. Prabhupāda: No, He... Nirākāra is there. So far His management power is going on, that is nirākāra. But that nirākāra does not mean that I am also nirākāra. That is the defect. The Supreme Person, it is confirmed by the śāstra. The Absolute Truth is person ultimately. Dr. Patel: Śrī Śaṅkarācārya also said bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindam... Prabhupāda: That's all right. One who says... We are studying from our common sense. Veda means knowledge and anta means the last. And Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. So unless you know Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of Vedānta. There may be Veda... Guest (4): Knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Ha, knowledge. But that is not the ultimate knowledge. The ultimate knowledge will come when you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. Therefore all these so-called Vedāntists, they will have to wait for many millions of years to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the position. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. And if he's actually in knowledge, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. That is the sign. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. That is wanted. So Vedāntist, so-called Vedāntist, we do not approve them because they have not come to the ultimate point of knowledge. This is clear. Veda means knowledge, anta, anta means the last point. So unless you come to that last point of knowledge, that is not Vedānta. That may be Veda, but it is not Vedānta. Vedānta means māṁ prapadyate. Now, whether you approve these statements? Vedānta means to know Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedānta-kṛd veda-vid ca aham. Dr. Patel: I am the main meaning of the *Vedas*. *Prabhupāda: Yes, He is the... So He can speak what is Vedānta. And unless one accepts this Vedānta, he's not a Vedāntist. Therefore some of our Vaiṣṇava friends, they have given me this title, Bhaktivedanta. In 1947, something, they, purposefully, they gave me the title that Vedānta means bhakti. "So you take this title, Bhaktivedanta." And we are preaching this Vedānta, that the ultimate platform of Veda, knowledge, is to understand Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. So he's person, he's speaking. So not that the Māyāvādīs, they take that paratattva is the nirākāra*-brahman. But that is not paratattva. Here the person says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. So if you have to accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme authority, then Vedānta means, He says also, to know Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, it is not anta, it may be middle, it may be beginning, but not anta. Dr. Patel: Sir, Śaṅkarācārya has made so many abstructs (obstructs?) for this bhakti. And I mean to follow it... *Prabhupāda: No, no, I'm talking of Kṛṣṇa. There are many other talkers. We are concerned because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. That is our philosophy. We may be fools and rascals, doesn't matter. But we accept what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all. Like a child, he's a child, he may be a fool. But when the father says, "My dear child, this is called microphone," and if the child says, "This is microphone," that is correct. Because he takes the word of the father who knows things. He may be child. So our business is like that. We don't claim ourself to be very learned, very advanced. We are fools and rascals. [break] "How can I become guru?" One may say. "I am not so learned, I am not so..." "No, no, you haven't got to bother. Still you can become guru." "How?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. If you simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said, then you become guru. That's all. So our business is that. We are guru not that because we are very learned, so-called Vedāntist. No. We are lowest of the lowest. But we are faithful to the words of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We have no other business. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has ordered, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Bas. Very easy. And that is being effective. Now because I am carrying these words of Kṛṣṇa throughout the whole world, perhaps I have done the best service than the combined so much Vedāntists. All the Vedāntists of India could not do that. That's a fact. How it has become possible? Because we are simply speaking what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. That's all. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa... That's all. I do not claim that I am Sanskrit scholar, I am this big man, that man, no. Whatever books I have written, only about this-Kṛṣṇa. In our book in every page you will find Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa. My Guru Mahārāja, if we used to write some article, so we wanted to show him how it is written. So he was very busy. So somebody would read and Guru Mahārāja would say, "How many times he has said 'Kṛṣṇa'?" (laughter) If he finds that in every page there is Kṛṣṇa, it is all right. That's all. (laughter) So we are making Vedāntist, "How many times he chants Kṛṣṇa?" If he chants always Kṛṣṇa, yes, he's Vedāntist. That's all. Bas. Because śāstra says, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. That is being effective. These boys, their forefathers or their father, grandfather never knew what is Kṛṣṇa. But kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet. So unless there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is no question of Vedānta. That is my point. (Hindi) That is real Vedānta. And the Vedānta says also... If you actually read Vedānta, what is the beginning of Vedānta? Boliye? What is the beginning? Dr. Patel: Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Prabhupāda: This is not Vedānta. This is *Īśopaniṣad*. Devotee: Janmādy asya yataḥ. *Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is Vedānta. Yes. That is Vedānta. Brahma*-sūtra. This is Vedānta. So this life is meant for Vedānta. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. And what is Brahman? Janmādy asya yataḥ. Brahman means the Supreme Soul of everything. And Kṛṣṇa replies, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. Then Vedānta study... I'm inquiring what is the ultimate source of everything and here is the answer. If you don't believe, that is another thing. You go on talking like anything. That is another thing. But answer is there. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. So we have to go to such mahātmā who knows vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Then it will be all right. If we want to waste time, that is another thing. I am very glad to see you. So I wish that you may spread real Vedānta. That is essence of Vedas. Vedānta means the essence of Vedas. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. Light is, of course there is light in the sunshine and there is light in the sun-globe, but the source of light is coming from the sun-god. Just like electric bulb, thousand power. So the illumination is also light and the source of illumination, the bulb, that is also light. And what is that? Filament within? That is also light. But what is the anta light? Not this illumination. Similarly Kṛṣṇa is the original source of light. Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ [Bs. 5.40]. It is confirmed in The Brahma-saṁhitā. So Brahman knowledge is partial Kṛṣṇa knowledge. Paramātmā knowledge, partial Kṛṣṇa knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa knowledge is perfect. So partial knowledge is also knowledge but Vedānta means full knowledge. So unless you come to that point it is not Vedānta. The another example is just like from a distant place you see one mountain. You'll see just like something cloud. It is not cloud. It is the mountain, but because you are seeing from a distant place you see it is something cloud. If you go little further, you'll see something green, and when you actually go to the mountain you'll find so many trees, so many living entities, so many everything full of varieties. The same mountain, absolute knowledge, advaya-jñāna, tattva-jñāna. If we accept tattva-jñāna from distant place it is Brahman. If you see that tattva-jñāna still nearer, then it is Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna [Bg. 18.61]. And when you go directly to the person, just like we are talking face to... That is possibility. And that possibility Kṛṣṇa comes to show us. That is indicated by Śukadeva Gosvāmī that, *Dr. Patel: Bhāgavata*-dharma. *Prabhupāda: No, this is real dharma. Bhāgavata*-dharma is real, Bhagavān. Bhāgavata-dharma means in a relationship with Bhagavān. So if you do not know Bhagavān then what is this knowledge? That is the defect. All dharmas, there may be Christian dharma, Hindu dharma, this dharma, that dharma. Ask any one of them, "Do you know Bhagavān?" "Zero." "Nirākāra." Nirākāra means zero. When you come to the right point, zero. No substance. Therefore they have got this prayer, nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe. This is going on. Śūnyavādi and nirviśeṣa. Nirākāravādi. We say... There are so many points. We say that "the Supreme Father," the Christians say. So how the Supreme Father can be nirākāra? We have got experience, my father has ākāra. His father has got ākāra, his father has got ākāra. So if you go to the Supreme Father, now how He is nirākāra? I may not have seen my great grandfather but that does not mean he's nirākāra. So I may not have seen God but if God is Supreme Father how he can be nirākāra? (Hindi) Guest (2): Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, he's a person. His father must be person. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is common sense. If son of God, if the son has form, how the father hasn't got form? What do you say? I'm asking you. This English boy. How the father can be formless? Christ says that he's the son of God. Is it not? Englishman: He said he was, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. But he's a person. So how the father is imperson? What kind of father? Dr. Patel: Sir, instead of calling person, we say he's an individual. Person means this body. Prabhupāda: Person is individual. Dr. Patel: Individual. So God is an individual then? Prabhupāda: No, person. God is a person. Individual means person. Individual person. Dr. Patel: Everything person is body. *Prabhupāda: Body or no body, that is separate thing. But when you say individual, he is a person. And it is explained also in the Bhagavad... Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta*-cetasām [Bg. 12.5]. Those who are inclined to the impersonal feature... God has got that impersonal feature. So they have to undergo more troubles to understand Him. And after going through troublesome business, bahūnāṁ janmanām, many, many births, then he understands, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam, here is the person." Everywhere this disease is very prominent, that God is impersonal. Perhaps this is the only movement in the world that's preaching, "No, God is person." Dr. Patel: All Vaiṣṇavas believe in the personal God. This is only. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bring some prasāda. Distribute. [break] Guest (4): ...camp. Let your group come and stay in our camp. Prabhupāda: No, no, we have already organized. We have also a organized camp. No, no, I would have saved this expenditure by joining your camp, but... *Guest (5): There is no question of expenditure. We welcome you and your institution over there. We have an arrangement for about two hundred tents and we have got enough food to offer you, quality food, which you won't find in the whole of the Kumbha*-mela. Because originally... Prabhupāda: But suppose if we speak in this way, then you'll not agree. (laughter) Real food is finished. Only puris, kacuris... (laughter) Guest (5): We'll have more real food when you come over there. Prabhupāda: No, if you do not object our preaching like that, then I can go. Guest (5): Yes, definitely. Prabhupāda: Whether your swamiji will like that? Guest (5): No, of course. Because actually there is nothing against your preaching. Otherwise, I would not have come. Prabhupāda: No, this is a contradictory. We say God is person, and you say nirākāra. That is the difference. Why God should be nirākāra? Guest (5): Ultimately, it is the... *Prabhupāda: Ultimately, you say nirākāra. We say ultimately ākāra. And that is the difference, gulf of difference. That is going on. We shall worship Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa there. With our ārati, just like we are doing in the temple. Perhaps your swamiji will not like this. And as soon as there is some contradiction... *Guest (5): No. Our main theme at the Kumbha*-mela is to speak direct to sādhus who come from Himalayas because mainly since 150 years this institution is serving them at Hardwar and Prayaga. They don't walk down to Ujjain or Nasik. Mainly they come at Hardwar and Allahabad. Prabhupāda: So if you kindly give us a camp, but we shall preach this. Guest (5): You are at liberty. There is no ban on it. Actually, you see we, as we said, we are serving the humanity directly. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That all right. Nice. But sometimes, if somebody differs, that is not very palatable . Guest (5): No, no, Swamiji. There is no... We welcome you there. I told Mangala when she came that we are not preaching a particular thing. We are going there to serve the people who come who are intellectual. Prabhupāda: For spiritual enlightenment. That's nice. Guest (5): Yes. And practically since many, many years our camp is considered as one of the best from all point of view. Hygienic arrangements, food quality. We don't use dalda or anything. We have the pure ghee. There are people who give with heart. Prabhupāda: Suppose if you give us one camp, so how many men we can provide there? Guest (5): At least 50 to 100 people we can accommodate. Prabhupāda: No. Guest (5): Or if you want more... Prabhupāda: No, no. Our men will not be fifty to so much. Suppose for us, if you spare one camp, so how many men we can accommodate there. Because... Guest (5): In one tent at least we can accommodate six people. Easily. With a drawing room and two bedrooms. We have the military tents. And just on the bed of the river. Prabhupāda: So how many men you are expecting? Girirāja: Fourteen. Prabhupāda: Fourteen. [break] Dr. Patel: ...you can serve how many people? Guest (5): Each tent we'll accommodate with all sanitary conditions. We have in one tent, which is quite a big one, six people easily. With a drawing and two beds. Prabhupāda: So at least three camps we shall require. Guest (5): Three or five. Whatever. Swamiji, number is immaterial. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. So why don't you do that? Dr. Patel: One for yourself and three to us. So four. Guest (5): I can even reserve for your institution six, eight, ten. Number is immaterial. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you take? Dr. Patel: That is very good. (Hindi) *Guest (5): Number is immaterial. We have the special boats plying from our camp because what our principle is (indistinct) away from the Mela, in seclusion. Now there is a bhāga, what is known as a munshi*-bhāga (?) and since last 200 years all the director sādhus, they reside there because it is away from... *Prabhupāda: Munshi*-bhāga that is... Guest (5): Yushi. Yushi.(?) So as it is away from Mela there is no hustle and bustle of the Mela. It's a secluded place. And from there we ply our own boats. We have about six, eight boats that take you for snāna. In the early morning at four o'clock we have the snāna in the Ganges itself near our camp because... Prabhupāda: Confluence, confluence. *Guest (5): On the spot. We are in the bed of the river and this plot is reserved since last 200 years for us from the government when the Mela comes. Pūrṇa*-kumbha, ardha-kumbha. And the boats ply from our spot downstream at Prayaga on the saṅgam. That we take them during the day according to the nakṣatra. Prabhupāda: These gentlemen offering, why not take advantage? Guru dāsa: If it's away from the Mela there won't be so much preaching there. Guest (5): People will come to you when they know you are there. There is no need to go. (laughter) Guest (6): You can still have a small place in Mela itself. Guest (5): That publicity will go like this. Don't worry about it. When the sun shines nobody says that the sun has risen. It has risen. Guru dāsa: Vedāntists say, but no one else... Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. So you take advantage of it. (everyone talking at once) Now is offering, you should... So immediately arrange for this. So (Hindi) Guest (5): I'll telephone today and we'll make the arrangement at least for five to six, seven tents. *Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Then it will be very nice. We are willing to go there. And we must go there. It is Kumbha*-mela. So if you give us five to six camps it will be very nice. Guest (5): Even up to ten. You don't hesitate for the number. Prabhupāda: Thank you. He's so liberal. You are actually Brahman.(laughter) Brahman means unlimited. Guest (5): Virāṭ. Prabhupāda: Virāṭ. Bṛhatyad, brnhanatya iti brahman.(?) Not only the largest, but increasing. That is Brahman. Bṛhatya brnghanatya.(?) I'm very much thankful to you. So you arrange immediately. (Hindi) Guest (5): I will send a message today and you will let me know the date. They will come and receive you either at the Benares airport or here at Allahabad station. Because it's not far away from Allahabad. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. I was in Allahabad for thirteen years. Guest (5): I know. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This Kumbha*-mela we had every year. Guest (5): First of all, you see, we have taken just near Yamunā bridge. As soon as the pilgrims come from various parts of the country we have got a... Prabhupāda: Yamunā bridge, there are two bridges. Guest (5): Just near Yamunā bridge there is an institution which belongs to Bombay and that institution is reserved for us just to give a shelter first to people who come by rail. Prabhupāda: So take all these notes. We'll save so much money. Guest (5): Transit camp. Prabhupāda: So immediately. Guest (5): I'll come again, don't worry. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Now, distribute prasāda. Guest (5): Actually, you know, Swamiji, I have stayed over here whenever he used to come. He passed away in 1960. Prabhupāda: Who? Guest (5): Our swamiji. He passed away at (indistinct) in 1960, 14th February. And he was very fond of Juhu since 1923. Whenever he was coming to Bombay. Prabhupāda: Juhu is very nice, I know. Guest (5): But now the Juhu has lost its charm. I'm talking about 1923 up to '45. And he used to go deep in the sea up to two miles. He used to take us with him. Prabhupāda: That, one saintly person, what is his name? Guest (5): He was a Punjabi body. And mostly he resided in Gujarat. Developed five of his institutions. One in Ooty and two on Nagada and Tapti and one is near Deoghar in Bihar. Prabhupāda: Bihar. Deoghar. Guest (5): Yes. One we have got in Hardwar itself. We have got a nice āśrama at Sapta Sarovara. I'll just show you one of his... Because Juhu, whenever he was in Bombay he was at Juhu always. [break] He was residing at M.C. Satwar, you know our Attorney General. Prabhupāda: He's Sindhi? Guest (5): Punjabi. Dr. Patel: He lived for 130 years. Prabhupāda: He's still living? Dr. Patel: No, he died only five years back. *Guest (5): 1960. This must be one of... There was a crowd you know at M.C. Satwar's. M.C. Satwar had invited everybody from the high*-court, all the judges. So he was just having a chant with them. "Swamiji, we would like to hear you, something." He said, "I am an uneducated man. What can I say?" This was in 1956 just four years before he passed away. Then he was thinking what to tell these guys. Just thinking for five, ten minutes. And then he spoke for two hours spellbound. Beautiful. He was about 6.4 inches in height. Prabhupāda: Real Punjabi. (laughter) Guest (5): And the color of his skin was as pink as the petal of the rose. He was a dynamic personality also. And the command over the language was superb. Just Your Holiness is quoting the Sanskrit quotations, just like Swami Gangesvarananda, though he's a blind man. But you, he can quote from any chapter, any stanza, any couplet. He's also here at present. He's coming over there. Prabhupāda: No, he's my good friend. Guest (5): Yes. We had a word about you with him long back. Before Your Holiness came to India. Prabhupāda: He likes me. (laughter) Guest (5): Yes. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] *Guest (6): She is my daughter*-in-law. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. He's your son? Guest (6): He's my son. He has just come day before from London to... Prabhupāda: You live in London? Guest (6): No, he's studying. He's an executive with the German company over there via India this German firm. And she is my daughter. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Everyone be happy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our... A good family. [break] *Dr. Patel: So his friend is my friend. (Everyone talking at once.) Swamiji says, he gave a good comparison about the bulbs Some bulbs have forty candles, some have twenty*-five, some a thousand. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jaya. So where is our Guru Mahārāja? Devotee: Gurudāsa Swami? Prabhupāda: He went away? Guest (5): So I'll see them again. Prabhupāda: All right, thank you. [break] Guest (5): We'll arrange for, the best that we could. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Thank you very much. Guest (5): Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] (Bengali) speaks Bengali very nice. Guest (7): Yes, he lived in Shanti Niketan four years. Prabhupāda: So give him shelter. (end) *Room Conversation-*-December 26, 1976, Bombay *Jagadīśa: "...is not actually religious but is an exploitative brain*-washing technique. In the past and even today the leaders of the Hare Kṛṣṇa faith, as we understand, have been abducted, assaulted, and subjected to mental and physical abuse. We also understand that there are widespread pressures being applied to convince the media and the government that religious freedom should not include the choice to live by the tenets of the Hare Kṛṣṇa Hindu scriptures. We strongly feel all these developments to be objectionable to all freedom-loving people of this great country. We will appreciate if you please look into this matter and take the needed steps to halt such religious suppression. Signed, V.J. Pandhi, Corporation Secretary and Member of the Board of Directors." Prabhupāda: V.J.? Jagadīśa: V.J. Pandhi. Prabhupāda: Pandit? *Jagadīśa: P*-a-n-d-h-i. Pandhi. Prabhupāda: It is European or? *Jagadīśa: Hindi. P*-a-n-d-h-i. And it has been signed by Padam Dakkad, the Treasurer of the World Foundation of Religion, by S.C. Shastri, Priest in charge, Sanatan Dharm, Cultural Ashram of America, Pandit Hari Prasad, priest in charge and president of the Vedic Mission of the Americas, Prakash something, Managing Director of the Literary Guild of India, Des R. Puri, President of Hindu Center, Swami Shambu Devananda, Vishnu Devananda. Prabhupāda: Oh, he's a very important man. Jagadīśa: No, Shambu Devananda on behalf of Swami Vishnu Devananda. And Surendra Kumar Patel of the Vishva Hindu Parishad of America. Prabhupāda: Oh, Vishva Hindu Parishad. *Jagadīśa: Umadatta Maharaja, Mahatma Gandhi Satsang Society, Hari*-Hara Yoga Center... Prabhupāda: It is very representative. Jagadīśa: Some other statements by... There's a nice letter from one of the devotees to one important psychiatrist outlining our case. He does a very good job. Would you like to hear it? Prabhupāda: Hm. *Jagadīśa: "Dear Dr. Lubin: In our recent telephone conversation you asked me to articulate in a letter those questions concerning the current brainwashing, deprogramming controversy which I feel may be pertinent to psychiatrists interested in religious issues and therefore a potential topic for discussion and or research within the Committee on Psychiatry and Religion of the Group for Advancement of Psychiatry. Speaking on my own behalf and informally on behalf of the Hare Kṛṣṇa religious society, I might suggest that this issue raises some very serious questions concerning possible abuses of diagnostic power in psychiatry against religious practitioners and movements for what may be social, political, and legal ends. Within the last ten years a large number of new religious groups, sects, communities and organizations have appeared on the American scene. Some are totally new organizationally as well as theologically. And others are, or allege to be, based upon some already existing spiritual tradition. I myself am a member for six years of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement. The term Kṛṣṇa consciousness is synonymous with the term bhakti*-yoga, a theistic form of yoga which finds its scriptural authority in the Bhagavad-gītā and other major Indian devotional texts. The religious tradition represented in the West of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, Vaiṣṇavism, has centered the lives of hundreds of millions of Hindus for many centuries in India. This particular tradition has produced one of the world's largest and richest bodies of religious, philosophical, and mystical literature. The founder and spiritual leader of the movement, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, has within the last ten years, offered more than fifty volumes of translation and commentary on major texts of the tradition: Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, etc. These works are considered significant contributions to scholarship by specialists in the field and are studied in the universities throughout the world. See book reviews in the pamphlet, 'The Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Movement is Authorized.' The members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, both men and women, single and married, live in strict adherence to Vedic and Vaiṣṇava principles in regards to religious practice, chastity vows, diet, etc. The movement's nearly one hundred centers are mostly urban monasteries from which members in accordance with Vaiṣṇava tradition perform evangelistic and proselytizing activities. The authenticity of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement has formerly been confirmed by numerous Hindu religious academic and cultural bodies both in India and U.S. Of the new religious movements which are prominent, most are allegedly based on either a Western religious tradition: the Children of God and Unification Church are Christian oriented; *or an Eastern religious or philosophical tradition: Zen groups, yoga groups, Hare Kṛṣṇa, etc. Of the groups based either on Western or non*-Western spiritual traditions, some are seen as not accurately representing that tradition upon which they are ostensibly based. For instance, several Christian church organizations assert that the Unification Church, the Moonies, is not a bona fide Christian organization. Others, such as the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, are accepted as legitimate, both by scholars and adherents of that tradition. As the public tends, however, to indiscriminately lump together whatever appears to be strange or out of the ordinary, the mass media refers to all such groups with the derogatory term, 'cult.' All questions of legitimacy aside, the parents of many members of such groups feel, for one reason or another, that their son or daughter has been brainwashed and they are under the 'mind control' of the cult. Originally denoting the specific technique employed by Chinese Communists to effect ideological persuasion to extreme psychological and often physical coercion, the term brainwashing is defined as a colloquial term applied to any technique designed to manipulate human thought or action against the desired will or knowledge of the individual." That's from the Encyclopedia Britannica. "In popular usage it becomes an imprecise, all-encompassing and pejorative term used to describe any kind of persuasion or behavior with which one may disagree. In psychology it is not generally accepted, I am told, as a legitimate clinical term. How does one wash another's brain? The dynamics of 'conversion' in the case of Kṛṣṇa consciousness are quite informal. Talking with devotees, reading scripture, meditation, etc. and certainly do not include the application of any type of psychological coercion against the desire, will, or knowledge of the potential or novice devotee. Although life in a Hare Kṛṣṇa community is communal and monastic with well-defined guidelines affecting the behavior and religious practice, it is in fact, a good deal more open then many or most types of monastic communities. The Hare Kṛṣṇa member is totally free to increase or decrease his involvement with the Society at any time he or she wishes. Because full commitment, as in any religious tradition, is not easy. A high percentage of those who join eventually leave. If brainwashing is what we're doing, we're not very good at it. Distressed however by an apparent rejection of their own values and lifestyle, and unable to account for what may be radical or abrupt change in the lives of their offspring, some parents of cult members, believing that their sons and daughters have been brainwashed, hire someone like Ted Patrick to forcefully abduct and debrainwash or deprogram them. What is being called deprogramming involves extreme coercive tactics, including rather intense psychological and often physical intimidation aimed at inducing the cult member to renounce his or her religious beliefs and practices. (See affidavit enclosed.) During deprogramming the victim is isolated from his particular religious community and is physically restrained. His religious apparel and paraphernalia, scriptures, prayer beads, sacred pictures etc., may be confiscated and destroyed and his beliefs and religious convictions vilified. In one case a pregnant mother was physically beaten. In another, a Hare Kṛṣṇa devotee who refused to violate his religious vow of reciting names of God, had his mouth filled with ice and gagged. Such deprogramming lasts often for several weeks with deprogrammers working in shifts while the deprogrammee is deprived of sufficient sleep. All this so that the brainwashed youth can be returned to a normal state and once again be able to make free choices. Deprogramming often ends with the victim signing a statement admitting that he had been brainwashed. Perhaps just as the confessions of those accused of being witches during the Holy Inquisitions were proof of the existence of witchcraft, such confessions by members of religious groups are taken as sufficient proof of brainwashing by those committed to the idea of cultic brainwashing. But such tactics are a gross violation of fundamental human and constitutional rights..." Prabhupāda: Hm? Hari-śauri: To get the sun if you like. *Jagadīśa: "But such tactics are a gross violation of fundamental human and constitutional rights are to go without saying. In cases where victims have instigated charges of kidnapping against parents and deprogrammers, grand juries have thus far refused to issue indictments apparently because the work is done at the behest of parents or other relatives and ostensibly for the good of the victim. The situation which has prompted me to communicate with members of the professional psychiatric community involves sweeping implications of a very important legal case which will be going to trial sometime in the late winter or early spring. Some background of the case may be helpful here." Then he explains about the case. Anyway, it's very nicely written. And he's mostly trying to expose that the psychiatrists have to take an objective standpoint. Otherwise, there are some psychiatrists who are atheistic and they are contending that any religious experience or so*-called religious consciousness is a... Prabhupāda: Artificial dependence. Jagadīśa: ...artificial dependence, yeah. So this is... *Prabhupāda: They say that there is a tissue in the brain, they disturb with this religious idea. They say like that. And if that tissue is operated then there will be no more religion. They can do that. With a brain operation he'll forget willfully. These rascal, so*-called scientists, they can do anything. Jagadīśa: There are some psychiatrists who are on our side though. So if we can rally their support... The whole thing is so emotional and based on this strong appeal by the scientists and leaders to avoid religion because of the distraction from sense gratification, that all of the charges against us are completely baseless. There's no foundation. And if we just carefully and with calculation expose all of their nonsense accusations, it will be a great victory. Especially now it has become such a national issue that the leaders of society have to become involved, otherwise they'll become implicated. They have to come out and say whether they support the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Prabhupāda: But they're supporting. Jagadīśa: They must support it. Actually, I'm sure that they're astonished to find out how intelligent all the devotees are. The devotees are the most intelligent people. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catura. Then, what other letters. Jagadīśa: There's this conference which took place at Harvard, a symposium headed by Dr. Harvey Cox who is very important and a very famous theologian in America. Some of the things they said are very nice. Especially there's some quote from the Bible that gives it... This is actually stated by this Mr. Cox, or Dr. Cox, a very important man. He gives a quote from the Bible. "Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the sea and the great multitude from Galilee followed him. And many who had diseases pressed in upon him to touch him. And he went up into the hills and called to him those whom he desired and they came to him. And he appointed twelve to be with him and he sent them out to preach. And then he came to his home town and the crowd came together, so many of them that they could not even eat. And when his family heard about this they went out to seize him for they said, 'He is besides himself.' And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, 'He is possessed by Beelzebub and by the Prince of Demons.' And Jesus said to them, 'If the house is divided against itself, that house will fall. It surely will not be able to stand.' And then his mother and his brothers came and standing outside the house where he was, they sent a message in to him calling him. And the crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, 'Your mother and your brothers are outside and they are asking for you.' And Jesus replied, 'Who are my mother and my brothers?' And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of God is my brother and my sister, and my mother." Prabhupāda: Very good. Jagadīśa: All these... Kīrtanānanda Swami was there and a boy who was kidnapped, Vasu Gopāla, as well as Dr. Harvey Cox, the Civil Liberties Attorney who is defending us, and Dr. Stephen Corover, a psychologist, Jack Colley, who's a renowned religious scholar, and Dr. Eck, a lecturer in Sanskrit and India studies at Harvard. The public was invited and they had questions from the floor and all of the members of the panel, important people, were all in our support. It's very long... Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Hari-śauri: There's one interesting statement in there from one of these men. He's lived in Vṛndāvana for about two years. And he says how when he first went to Vṛndāvana, all the people there, they would chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma, but it was kind of a derogatory thing because they had seen this film, Dum*-mada-dam. So whenever they saw a Westerner they thought, "Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma," implying, "Oh, you're a hippie, you're a drug addict." Like that. But he said in the last two or three years since we established our temple, now that is completely changed. They're still saying, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma," all the children shout it, but now they expect us to shout "Haribol" back and that it's a sign of, it's a friendly gesture now. So he's an outsider, but he's noticed the change in the Indian people's attitude, especially in Vṛndāvana. Jagadīśa: He said, "Any Westerner they see in Vṛndāvana they say Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma." Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Hari-śauri: Yeah, and he points out how the people, they generally ask when they see a Westerner, they ask, "Oh, when is darśana at your temple?" And he says that they're actually interested to come to our temple because the standard there is very much acceptable to them. They're attracted to come not because we're Westerners, but because they can see that our standard of worship is as good as or better than their own standards even. Jagadīśa: There's one other letter from Guṇārṇava. (end) Prabhupāda: He's taking so much labor. Through English? Hari-śauri: Romanized devanāgarī. [break] Prabhupāda: ...books, but they are not selling with... Where is my spectacle? Hari-śauri: No, there's hundreds and millions of books in India, all, so many, and no one buys them. (long pause) The man's not very intelligent. He's showing a diagram here showing how the languages evolved through the ages. So he's put that the original language was spoken in Stonehenge, and he shows a man wearing a bearskin (laughs). [break] Prabhupāda: ...some central point of unity. But the disunity is increasing. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: And the real platform of unity is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Our members, although they speak different languages from different countries, but still they are united. Hari-śauri: Purpose is the same. Prabhupāda: Language does not make united. This Bangladesh, they speak Bengali. They write Bengali. But why they are separate? America and England, they speak the same language. Why Washington declared independence? Australia, they have also declared independence from England just a piece of land. So there cannot be unity on any platform unless there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is impossible. Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only thing that encompasses everything. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is false idea that by language, linguistic unity there will be... There are so many different examples. Pakistan, they speak Hindi also. Yes, they speak Hindi. And why there is separation? Bangladesh, they speak Bengali. Why they are separated from West Bengal? The linguistic unity is not... Any material platform, there cannot be unity. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. [break] Hari-śauri: It's the white one. It's on my bed. [break] Devotee: Hari-śauri is asking if you can take... [break] Jagadīśa: Well, that doesn't mean I can. [break] Indian lady: In our schools and college... Prabhupāda: (Bengali) She'll understand Bengali. (Bengali) That explains. (Bengali) Indian lady: Why don't they teach this in our schools and colleges? Prabhupāda: Because they won't take it. They'll take this unauthorized interpretation. Indian lady: I remember, I come from Sindh, and before partition, we were taught all these religious books in our school. But now... Prabhupāda: Simply reading will not do. You have to learn from the right person. Indian lady: By reading, reading, we learn. Prabhupāda: No, if you read as it is, then you will be benefited. But if you read these rubbish commentaries, then (speaks to another man) You inquired about that land? He wants to avoid the land. Indian man: We have met the court, and the land is still available. Depends on your convenience at how things go. Girirāja: Yes, we'll take a look at it. Devotee: When can we go? Girirāja: Tuesday? Indian man: Or Wednesday would be even better. Devotee: Morning? Indian man: We can pick him up or meet him there. (Devotees talk briefly with Indians) *Indian man: Śrīla Prabhupāda there is another request from Mrs. (indistinct) and she would like to invite you and other devotees to show the film and other things and they can arrange a good (indistinct) over there. (indistinct) And they have got a very good school over there. So anytime can be given within this or after going to Kumbha*-mela? Prabhupāda: After it would be (indistinct). Indian man: During the 7th of January or... *Prabhupāda: I may be going away by the 3lst. And there visit the Kumbha*-mela. (everyone talking at once) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotees will be going there starting from the 5th by installments. Indian man: We can keep it up till 20th, after 20th of January. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kumbha*-mela will be over... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For the 24th I thought. Indian man: 24th, last weekend. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So our only request is that you read Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. You'll be benefited. And if you interpret whimsically, then you'll rot, spoil. There is no benefit by eating spoiled foodstuff. Kṛṣṇa says... Jaya. Jaya. Prasāda, liye. Indian lady: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Oh yes, you are welcome always. Whenever you find time. (Hindi) Janma sārthaka kari' kara para*-upakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. This is Caitanya. First of all, make your life successful. That successful means yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128], to understand Kṛṣṇa thoroughly. Then you become guru. When you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you are janma sārthaka. And then you can speak para-upakāra. Otherwise, it is not possible. Without Kṛṣṇa tattva-jñāna, if we become leader, that will not take... yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128]. What is that? Devotee: I got a different vase. Prabhupāda: This is spoiled. Oh. Another. Devotee: This is a different. Indian lady: But through chanting also you get... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the easiest process. Now the previous (indistinct) was spoiled and it was not clear. So it is spoiled. But now it is clear, it is nice. Not clear means something added. Indian lady: Adulterated. Prabhupāda: Something adulteration. Adulterated things are not good. Pure thing, that is good. Why do they not accept? Let us discuss something. Why these people interpret? What is the reason to spoil it? Indian lady: To gain the leadership? Prabhupāda: But with that leadership, if you cheat others, does it mean leadership? Indian lady: Or importance. Or the ego which they, "I have got so many followers. Whether I'm wrong or right, everyone thinks I'm right." Prabhupāda: So what is the meaning of these followers who are all... What is called? Just like sometimes the... What is called? You take so many lambs, what is that called? Devotee: Shepherd? Prabhupāda: Shepherd. Yes. The shepherd has many followers. But does it mean any meaning? Indian lady: We are the sheep without any understanding we blindly follow. The public I mean. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that does not mean that that man is very important, the shepherd, because you follow. What is the meaning of... Indian lady: But the sheep has no sense of herd. What poor sheep can do? Prabhupāda: That's all right. Because thousands of sheep following one shepherd, does it mean the shepherd is an important man? Indian lady: One sheep thinks that "So many sheep are following, with me..." Prabhupāda: That's all right. I say the shepherd is an important man because there is...? Indian lady: No, not that. No no. *Prabhupāda: No. Then why you take that? That is explained the Bhāgavatam, śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. The shepherd may be followed by so many sheep but that does not mean he's an important man. That is the... That is the, going on. The so-called leaders, they are just like shepherd and we are like sheep. But that does not mean the shepherd is an important man. Indian man: Then what is alternative of that. Can we not change? Suppose I am a sheep... *Prabhupāda: You can change immediately. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. You can change immediately within a second. Indian man: Within a second. Prabhupāda: But because you are sheeps, you'll not do. *Indian lady: But we'll change only when there is a guru*-kṛpā. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says... You are taking Bhagavad*-gītā, the leader is taking Bhagavad-gītā, and he's speaking nonsense. So we are human beings, we should know what Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. The paramparā, whether he's speaking paramparā or he's speaking whimsically. That much sense we must have. Otherwise, I am the same sheep. Then why you are speaking which is not in the paramparā? at least, you should be... Now this movement is started, because on this principle, That why these rascals are speaking not in the paramparā? That is my seed of starting this movement. I must start the movement. That is the impetus of this movement, that they must speak according to the paramparā. And someone allowed them to speak otherwise. Therefore I wrote this book, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Don't make interpretations. And by the grace of Kṛṣṇa it has become to some extent successful. That is the impetus. Why they should talk nonsense? It is clear that evaṁ paramparā prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. Paramparā means... That is also explained. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: I'm just talking to you the same old yoga system. There is no change. Purātana. Why they make new interpretation? Kṛṣṇa is saying the purātana, and these people are presenting new interpretation of Bhagavad*-gītā. Just see. How much misuse has been done. Try to understand. No effect. Indian lady: I'm asking a question. How to stop this which is going on only if we chant God's name, this poor activity...? *Prabhupāda: This is also chanting. If you speak Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, this is also chanting. Indian lady: Preach to everybody as it is. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Present Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Indian lady: You must know what is in *Gītā*. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Indian lady: Then nobody can fool you. And you know in our so*-called guru baba's speeches, without guru-kṛpā you can't get anything. They want to enter... Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all we... *Indian lady: Without guru*-kṛpā we can't get. You can't achieve the goal. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you have to ask whether are you guru? Indian lady: That sense you must have. You must know what is what. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You are not guru, you are goru. Goru means cow. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ. You are not guru. You are speaking against Kṛṣṇa so you are not guru. Guru is Arjuna. Because a confidential instruction is given to Arjuna, so we accept Arjuna as guru. Or one who is following Arjuna, he is guru. Arjuna has accepted Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. You accept Kṛṣṇa as paraṁ brahma. You want to become paraṁ brahma. You are cheating people. You do not say Kṛṣṇa is paraṁ brahma, but you are replacing Him. Then you are cheater, you are not guru. That has to be done. So organize this. Very plain thing. Very plain thing. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu did. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Bas. You become guru. Indian lady: He said wherever you go you say Kṛṣṇa's kathā. That is your duty. Prabhupāda: You become guru. Indian lady: Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, you have said, now the gurus are saying. That what I am saying you preach. He doesn't say. He said what Kṛṣṇa said. Prabhupāda: That is guru. One who says like that, he is guru. Indian lady: (Bengali) Actually, you must work and achieve bhakti. (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: You can live with your son, husband, you can live. I can give you a room like this. So you haven't got to live underneath a tree. We have got up to date. (Hindi*-asks if they have seen Vṛndāvana) Indian lady: You must go to Vṛndāvana, everywhere. Prabhupāda: We are offering best facility. Indian lady: No she is saying, she wants to... Prabhupāda: Similarly, you have seen our Navadvīpa also? Indian lady: Māyāpura dekhi. Prabhupāda: Māyāpura, yes. So we are giving, as far as possible, comfortable life. Because modern man, he cannot go to the forest and live underneath a tree. That is not possible. Therefore by begging, begging, spending blood, we are getting money all over the world and spend it like this. For me, I can live anywhere. And I can collect one or two ruṭi anywhere. It is not for me. It is for you. I have invited. Come here, stay and preach this cult, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. That I want. People are being cheated all over the world shamelessly. Indian lady: What about this Guru Grantha Saheb.(?) The philosophy which Guru Grantha Saheb has, what is that about? *Prabhupāda: Well why you are going here and there? Why don't you take one Bhagavad*-gītā. Indian lady: Inquisitive mind asks that question. *Prabhupāda: I do not know what is Guru Grantha Saheb, but I know Bhagavad*-gītā. That's all. I am not so learned scholar that I have to read this, that, that. I simply know what Kṛṣṇa has said, and I know Caitanya Mahāprabhu advises yāre dekha tāre kaha. That I have done. That's all. Indian man: You have six o'clock in the morning same thing, six o'clock in the evening same thing. No change. In the morning I was also there. No change. I've brought this gentleman and this lady they want to come here and stay and work for the institution. He's 74 years old and she's also very active and she knows very good cooking. Prabhupāda: Hm, very good. *Indian man: They cannot speak in English. That's the whole difficulty, they are speaking Hindi and Gujarati. They are very, feeling very shy. And he's very great expert in growing this wheat grass which has become very popular. Everybody likes very much. Your devotees are also liking. He's an expert in this. He's a very good music teacher, he has a very good tape recordist. Puppeteer, also he's making these puppet for last twenty years. He's expert in making puppets. We can make kṛṣṇa*-kathā puppets also for our theater. And he can train our young boys for the same thing. Video tape and everything, he knows about this audio-visual communication... Prabhupāda: Everyone has got some talent. So svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. That is wanted. Whatever talent you have got you can utilize for Kṛṣṇa. Indian man: And I want to utilize for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I know him for last 22 years. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...this grass. Indian man: That is a very good, that was wanted by (indistinct), he is taking every day. *Prabhupāda: In Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all varieties of work can be utilized. (Hindi) Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. He got perfection, Vaiyāsaki, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, simply narrated. Narration is also kīrtana. Recitation of Bhāgavatam. By reciting Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam he became perfect. Abhavad vaiyāsakiḥ kīrtane. Śrī-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣit. Parīkṣit Mahārāja simply listened. There are navadhā-bhakti, nine kinds of bhakti process. Any one of them, you be expert and you'll be perfect. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. So, where his family? Indian man: He has got one son and daughter. His family is in Bombay. One son is expired earlier. And he has got good talent of teaching Hindi, music, and tape recording. He's such work. And she knows cooking, very good cooking. Prabhupāda: Yes, if she gives cooking direction. Indian man: She is also quite expert in cooking. (Hindi) He plays very good harmonium. Indian man (2): All musical instruments. Prabhupāda: No, we don't want to introduce harmonium. Indian man: No, I know. That is what he's teaching at the moment. He's doing it out of force. Prabhupāda: The other musical instrument, if he plays his attention will be diverted in musical instrument, not to chanting. "We have to see melody, whether it is going on nicely." But that is not good. Our concentration should be hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is... That is bhakti. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, simply this karatāla, khola, that's all. In those days... Of course, there was no harmonium, but many stringed instruments were there. Sitar, esarāja, but these things were not used. Sometimes we do use to attract, but it is not required. (Hindi) *Indian lady: Yesterday I was (indistinct). The way it was for me, prema*-bhakti. Through music it is very easy. (indistinct) You have to take rest now. Prabhupāda: No, I have to take prasāda. (indistinct) Indian man: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've got some good quality tape. If you like it you can get more. Very good quality. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...saintly person. Such men should understand. Rājarṣi. Not ordinary king. Ṛṣi. Ṛṣi tulya. So if one is religious, then he will institute. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. If the big, big leaders, politicians, they accept Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, then others will follow. Unfortunately, the leaders, they have their own interpretation. They won't accept Bhagavad-gītā. That is the difficulty. Indian man: Prabhupāda, how about opening one temple in Ahmedabad? Prabhupāda: Why not? We are opening everywhere, why not in Ahmedabad? Good idea. I want to open centers in every village, in every town. Indian man: That is very good, but to begin with, if such centers... I was discussing with Girirāja... Prabhupāda: Is there any chance of opening? *Indian man: Yes. In Ahmedabad? Why not? There is no obstruction. The Christians have now opened up two centers. Arya*-samaj has opened one. So there is no restriction. And these areas, like Ahmedabad or in some of the African countries where people have still no inclination or no knowledge of one particular kind of religion or particular thing, they are open to anything which is given to them. Prabhupāda: There must be preacher, good preacher. Indian man: Preacher of their language. But language (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Language can be managed if there is good preacher. Indian man: But in these areas they don't require such intelligent preachers. Intelligence is required in cities where people are full of logic and want to argue right or wrong. And where they're determined to prove that "You are wrong, I am right," there you require... Prabhupāda: That will not help. That is my propaganda. If they are induced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa... Indian man: That's all. But for that very big preaching is not required. Sincerity is required. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: It is the personal sincere influence which one... Prabhupāda: America, I simply began this chanting and few minutes speaking. Indian man: But I've never (indistinct) one of those centers are open, it will do very well. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You simply repeat, recite, the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. That is preaching. That is preaching. And we are doing the same thing. We are doing. We are not introducing any new interpretation. Whatever Kṛṣṇa has said, bas, finished. And that is becoming effective. We haven't got to manufacture anything. Indian man: Prabhupāda? Jīva Gosvāmī was the guru of Mira? Prabhupāda: No. I do not know who is the guru of Mirabhai. But Mirabhai, from the childhood, she was a devotee. But I do not hear anyone as her guru. Indian man: No, but who was living in Vṛndāvana. Was Jīva Gosvāmī living in Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Yes. Six Gosvāmīs. Rūpa, Sanātana, Bhaṭṭa Raghunātha, Śrī Jīva, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa, Dāsa Raghunātha. Six Gosvāmīs, they were immediate disciples of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They were entrusted to develop Vṛndāvana. And they did it. Modern Vṛndāvana means, this is the contribution of the Six Gosvāmīs. [break] Indian man: ...a portion which says that when she went there and... Prabhupāda: So that may be, whatever is there, but Rūpa Gosvāmī had no reason to refuse seeing a woman. Indian man: No, but, that... Which Gosvāmī? *Prabhupāda: No, any Gosvāmī. Because the Gosvāmīs were so popular that amongst the villagers, when there was some disagreement between family members they used to come to him and say to him, "Bābā, (Hindi)." That means in that way he had to see many women many times. Why he should refuse? And what is the meaning of refusing if one, anybody... Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not refuse, but women used to offer their respect from little distance, not very near. That was Caitanya Mahāprabhu's restriction. But in our association there is no such thing as refusing anyone the opportunity. Kṛṣṇa does not say. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ [Bg. 9.32]. He does not make any... And so far my institute is concerned, we do not make such thing. Everyone should be given chance. But we have restriction that we should mix with women very cautiously. You should not have any illicit sex. These things are there. Indian man: No, that is of course... *Prabhupāda: But why a woman should be refused? This is not authentic. Why Rūpa Gosvāmī should refuse her? They were bhikṣu, madhukarī. So when one goes for bhikṣā, so how he can check that he will not see any woman? How it is possible? He has to go to the householder, "Mataji, a cāpāṭi lijiye."(?) Or he'll stand. Generally woman comes to give cāpāṭi. So how it is possible to restrict the eyes? That is, he does not...I think I cannot accept this, that Rūpa Gosvāmī refused. Why he should refuse? Vaiṣṇava is kind. But we must mix with women cautiously. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. He never says, "Only to the men." Indian man: But this body designations are not necessary in this preaching. *Prabhupāda: As far one who is paṇḍita, in the position of Rūpa Gosvāmī, for him, paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Indian man: He'll see woman and man equal. Prabhupāda: There is no difference. And if he makes such distinction, then how he's paṇḍita? Then he's not paṇḍita. But it is etiquette, mātā svasā duhitā vā. One should not very closely sit down even with mother, sister, and daughter. That restriction is there. But that does not mean that one should not see even a woman. So we are following that principle. Never mind, man or woman, she can offer her respect, but not very near. That restriction must be there. [break] We have support from very high circle. Scholar, priest, even father, mother, parent. Many old gentlemen come to congratulate me, "Swamiji, it is our great fortune that you have come to this country." In Los Angeles they have been very nice. Many parents used to come. (Hindi) Indian man: Now Girirāja is going about with this school work. Prabhupāda: Yes. But the building is not yet sanctioned. You have seen inside temple? Indian man: Yes. I come here once a week. [break] Prabhupāda: This is... Of course, I gave him the idea. But Saurab's design. He's Dutch. He's Dutch boy. The Vṛndāvana is also his. Indian man: How is the Kurukṣetra going? Prabhupāda: Kurukṣetra, the government has not yet decided to give us land. Indian man: The Hyderabad Gurukula? Prabhupāda: Hyderabad land we have got. Indian man: Gurukula. Prabhupāda: It is very nice place, Hyderabad. I was going (indistinct). I liked it very much. Indian man: Prabhupāda, there is a place here, near (indistinct). That's about sixty, eighty miles from here. (indistinct) mentioned to you before. [break] Prabhupāda: That's what they're eating, that lamb's flesh. Indian man: Now Prabhupāda, even Jains eat meat. Prabhupāda: Who cares for them? In Gujarat they are eating fish? Indian man: No. Eggs. They have started eating two lakhs of eggs in Ahmedabad. *Indian man: Ahmedabad is a very big meat*-eating center. Prabhupāda: In Surat I was guest of that Jariwala. So on the morning walk I went to the riverside. So I saw so many fisherwoman carrying the big basket. So I asked the driver, he was Mohammedan, "Why these fisherwomen here?" He said, "Nowadays, all Gujaratis, they're eating fish." *Indian man: I tell you Prabhupāda... Very, very, old... Before 1937, in Bhavnagar, Saurastra, we had our office in '37, '35 we had. I was in Karachi. We sent one manager from Peshawar, twenty*-year man. So he used to eat meat and fish and everything and a young man he was... Prabhupāda: Punjabi. *Indian man: Hindu brāhmaṇa. But there the brāhmaṇas also eat meat. Kashmiri brāhmaṇas eat meat. So he was about 25, 24 years old at that time. When he reached Bhavnagar, he could not get a house. There were so many "To Let's" but wherever he went he was told no. So after all he got fed up, he inquired what is the reason. He said "You are a non*-Katyawari, non-Saurastri. You are from the frontier, so you must be eating meat and eggs. So we'll not give you our house." So ultimately, one of his business friends, because he was the manager of the office after a month or so, one of the business friends he said, "All right, I'll get you a house if you give a written undertaking that you'll not eat meat." So he said, "Okay, thank you. I'll write undertaking that I'll not eat meat." One year passed. But when he used to come back from office, in front of a particular shop he used to see... In those days even a crowd of twenty persons in front of a shop was a big thing. So he would see ten, fifteen people and eat what is stop in a shop and take a small tiffin box, drop off a small tiffin box and walk away. So one day he also stopped there and he asked the shopwala for this tiffin box. "What you are giving in there?" "That," he said, "is not for you." "What is this?" He said "It's not for you. You'll not get it." Then he visited that fellow five, six times, then ultimately, that man said, "Look here, why you want to know all about that? It's not meant for you, and you'll not be able to use it." He said, "What is, can you tell me." Then he brought it, gave it to him, he opened it. It was minced meat. "But it's meat." How do you know it is meat?" He said, "I have been living in Punjab for all of my life. I know what is meat." He said, "Now don't shout. Go away from here. They are my customers." "They are your customers? They are the very people who have been refusing me a house!" The same people. *Prabhupāda: Meat*-eating is now world wide. I have seen now in the airplane one Marwari gentlemen, he was eating the intestines of the (indistinct). Indian man: Not one. In our relationships, not one. They are competing with each other. Indian man (2): What is the motivation? Prabhupāda: They have learned it. Indian man: No, no. Fashion. Now one thing is they can hold off the rich people in India. That is not now, but about, put it back to 1944-45, during the war time. British time. That hold has become stronger. If we do not eat West, particularly America, then we are called "uncivilized." So to prove that I am civilized, there are three things. I must speak English, my children must go to missionary or convent schools, we must adopt Western customs and etiquette, and we must adopt their eating habits. Now if I'm not accepted in the American society... Even the British is now called uncivilized comparatively. If I'm not accepted by the Americans, that, "Yes, I know the standards and I live like them or even better than them," then I am supposed to be common. This is the conception of civilization amongst the Marwaris and the Gujaratis of the richer class. Previously it used to be, as they say of ancient India, that if one did not speak Sanskrit he was supposed to be uncivilized. So now that has come out... Prabhupāda: In our childhood, my father's generation, in Calcutta, if a gentleman does not keep a prostitute extra, he is not a respectable man. Indian man: That was in Delhi? That was during the Mogul time in Delhi? Even after the Mogul time? Not only keeping. In Delhi one of my very, my father's very close friend, Lala Sriram from Delhi... Prabhupāda: Oh, Sriram is a famous man. Indian man: No, not that millionaire. Another Sriram. And they were from Delhi. Just I'm talking only about 1939-40. In Karachi he came. He said every boy, before marriage, his marriage, he was supposed to go and take training from a prostitute for a month or so. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Indian man: If a boy was not trained there he could not find a good wife. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Indian man: That was a part of his qualification to get a good wife. Prabhupāda: Now how is this (indistinct) because the bride and bridegroom is selected by the parents. Indian man: Yes, the parents would not select that boy. Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian man: Because parents, as they inquire today, how much you are educated, that was one of the qualifications. Prabhupāda: So what is the purport? Indian man: (laughs) I don't know. But to learn all these etiquettes of methods when you are in a sabhā (indistinct) these cabarets and all the... That type of cabaret, how you should behave? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We will leave at 7:25, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm. What is the time? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifteen, twenty minutes. Prabhupāda: What will be about the light? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are fixing it up now. I don't know why it goes out. I've told the construction department to look into it, to fix it. I don't know why it goes out again. Prabhupāda: In our area only? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just here, the top floor of this building. Just your apartment and the next apartment. Prabhupāda: Other buildings, they are... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, yes. Even our buildings other side have it. Just this one. Indian man: Some emergency light needs to be connected here, so automatically the light goes out (indistinct). Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana they have got that generator. Indian man: That is very good but (indistinct). Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't need it in Bombay because in Bombay it never goes off. I think it's going off because something is wrong with the wiring in this apartment. Prabhupāda: Here. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise, there's no reason. On our side it doesn't go out at all. Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana it takes only two minutes to change. Similarly, we have in Māyāpura also. Indian man: So can I know the reason why you are restraining the use of gobar gas now. I could not understand actual technical difficulty. Is there any difficulty? Prabhupāda: No, we can utilize the gobar in different way. Indian man: No, but gobar gas is not good, that's why... Prabhupāda: No, no, not good. But we have to arrange for this plant, generate gas. So why not direct? Indian man: No, but the fuel is achieved, but the fertilizer is lost. Gobar, there are two elements. One is a methane gas and one is fertilizer. If you burn it you are burning the fertilizer which is very, very important, and very, very useful against the fuel that we get. Prabhupāda: No, that ash is very good. Indian man: No ash is not the full fertilizer. It is only partial. 10% of the fertilizer becomes ash. The organic matter is burned with great loss to the society and the earth. Prabhupāda: But in our Māyāpura, that plant, we spent so much, it has not become successful. Indian man: No that is mechanical fault. Just like electricity now it has failed. Now sir, we should not stop utilizing electricity. Prabhupāda: No, any machine, that defect will be there. Indian man: But that we have been working for twenty years in Ahmedabad. Everybody is very happy there, and they're actually making money out of it. The fertilizer that is there is about four times what is normally achieved. So good maintenance are required for any... Prabhupāda: (sneezes loud) I have no objection, but I've got experience. In Māyāpura it is failure. Indian man (2): Sometimes we get a defective machine. I purchased one for my girl's house. I've got a number of about 30. But one was rejected but... Indian man: Either defective machine or defective maintenance. Prabhupāda: Maybe. But the difficulty is there. (sneezes) (pause) Indian man: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...31st to go for Bhuvaneśvara. Then come to Kumbha*-mela. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Or you can stay here and go to Kumbha*-mela straight? *Prabhupāda: That can be also done. I am waiting for one letter from Gaura*-Govinda Swami. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Then from Kumbha*-mela you can go to Orissa, from Orissa to Māyāpura. Then you have go to Kodekana. Prabhupāda: Kodekana, have you been ever? I have to inquire whether it is zigzag. Indian man: Oh, Kodekana. That is very famous place. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it zigzag or is it straight? Indian man: No, zigzag. In the mountain side. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No that is not good. Prabhupāda: OK, then it is... Indian man: Kodekana is outside (indistinct). Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, is there a train station or airplane, airport? Indian man: Railway may be going, but even that will be zigzag. Prabhupāda: Simla, er, Darjeeling is not so zigzag but big, big loops (?). Indian man: Loops are big. Roads are very difficult. Kodekana there is no train. In Ootacamund there is a train. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Kodekana there is no train at all? Prabhupāda: No, there is train from Madras. Indian man: Kodekana you'll have to change and then go by motor car. Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian man: That inquire. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I can inquire. Indian man: When you come in Ootacamund there is a direct train. (Prabhupāda rings bell) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want Jagadīśa or Hari-śauri? Prabhupāda: Anyone. He can take this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I like that place Hyderabad. Indian man: Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: The temple in the city is also very good. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen it? Indian man: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Kārttikeya you've seen? Kārttikeya: I have seen one, before the opening. I haven't gone after the opening. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. That is the nicest temple in Hyderabad. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, thousands of people come every day. Indian man: It's right in the center. (end) *Morning Walk-*-December 27, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: Where is Jagadīśa? [break] ...on the real goal of life. *Jagadīśa: Because they do not know that the goal of human life is to become freed from the repetition of birth and death, therefore there is no, as explained in the First Chapter of the First Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, Prabhupāda: Oh, you are tiger? How are you, Mr. Tiger? Indian man: This is Mr. Ganesh's elder son. Prabhupāda: Now, a Tiger? Your grandson? Indian man: Tiger. (Gujarati) Prabhupāda: No, he is... He is tiger? Ācchā. Thank you. Hm. Go on. *Jagadīśa: People are lazy and unfortunate. They have no knowledge. And besides that, they are misled by foolish leaders. The leaders are intent only on deriving sense gratification from their so*-called high position. In the Bhāgavatam also it is explained that men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who do not glorify the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is a civilization of fools, a fool's paradise where the common people are allowed to elect from amongst them one so-called leader who is the biggest rascal because he doesn't know anything, and none of the others, the common, people know anything about the purpose of life, and yet this so-called leader becomes elected on the basis that he can do something to help suffering humanity. The material existence is nothing but a struggle against material nature which ultimately has no value. But it's an illusory struggle because of the spirit soul... Prabhupāda: Why it has no value? Jagadīśa: Because there is no... Prabhupāda: He'll not say that is has no value. You must give the reason why it has no value. *Jagadīśa: It has no value because there is no permanent connection between the spirit soul and the material energy. There are two kinds of energy: material energy and spiritual energy. We have experience of both. The material energy is described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā. *Prabhupāda: You can describe like this. Just like if a man is diseased, so the physician imposes upon him some restriction, do and do not. So if by mistake we give up the do not's, then it is useless. He should observe the do not's. Then he'll be cured. And if he does not observe the do not's-whatever he likes, he does*-that means his disease is increasing. Therefore it is useless. The real aim of life is how to get out of the clutches of māyā which is forcing me to accept the cycle of birth and death. That is my disease. Therefore tapasya. Tapasya means restricted life, not unrestricted life. So if we do not follow the restricted life, that means I shall continue my disease or increase my disease. The modern civilization, we are teaching how to enjoy this material world to the fullest extent, bhogaiśvarya, sense gratification and for sense gratification, material opulence. But he does not know that he is killing himself. He is aggravating the disease. He has to accept another body. But that he does not know, that he'll have to take birth and die, again the same business. That he does not know. Therefore this civilization is misguided. Yesterday we were reading, tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. We have to purify our existence. So this aim is missing-how to purify it. Sattva, I am eternal. Now I am existing in a condition, birth and death. That they do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. He does not know his interest. He's thinking, "This is life. Let me enjoy and there is no life after death, and even there is, who cares for it?" This is going on. Guest (Indian man): That tapasya means? Prabhupāda: Tapasya means restricted. Guest (1): Protect your mind... Wed it to the soul and taken away from all extraneous things which are made up of māyā, is that not the meaning? *Prabhupāda: Tapasya means to rescue the soul from this material condition, yena sattvaṁ śuddhyet, to purify your existence. What is the impurification? Impurification is that the soul is subjected to repetition of birth and... That is impurification. That he does not know. So he is missing the goal of life, and he's thinking this temporary so-called happiness for twenty years, forty years, fifty years, or, utmost, hundred years, that is his ultimate. That is a misleading. He does not know the aim of life. He thinks this material enjoyment to make this body stout and strong and enjoy senses like the hogs. Therefore it has been (called) na arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye. The sewer hog, he is thinking, "I am eating stool. I am getting fatty. That is my life. And I am enjoying sex without any discrimination." No discrimination of sex, either mother or sister and daughter*-it doesn't matter. This is hog's life. He does not know. As soon as he becomes fatty he'll be captured, and the bhangis will, what is called? Toast, make him a toast. In our country they do. In outside of the village they hang the pig and with fire, roast it. And he, it cries, "Kyaa, kyaa, kyaa." And it is roasted, and they enjoy. But that he does not know. He is getting very strong but he does not know that he's going to be roasted. Therefore he is misguided. He does not know nature's law. *Guest (1): Sir, isn't the real bhakti (indistinct), dvijātmānaṁ brahma*-rūpaṁ deha-tyāgi vibhayaḥ tena kartavyam...(?) (indistinct) That type of bhakti is a tapasya (indistinct). Prabhupāda: But who is going to take the bhakti? He was going to take sense enjoyment. Guest (1): That bhakti is a tapa itself. That bhakti is amongst the tapas. *Prabhupāda: Yes, bhakti means tapasya. Just like they are in the bhakti line. They are doing tapasya. They are rising early in the morning, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, observing maṅgala-ārati, no meat*-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, so many things. It is tapasya. Whole thing is tapasya, tapaḥ, because by this tapasya the contamination of the soul will be cured. Then, if he understands Kṛṣṇa, then he is transferred to the spiritual world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. He does not come again to accept the material body, and he permanently lives in the spiritual world. That is perfection. The modern civilization, they do not know all these things. They are misguiding that "You earn to your best extent. Work very hard like hogs." And there is advertisement "Work hard. The next (?)." They are pulling one trailer, rickshaw, still, their leaders are advising, "Work hard. Work still more hard." A human being is pulling on trailer and rickshaw, and still hard work. And that rascal does not know that this hard work like hogs and dogs will not make the solution. But they are enthusing, "Yes, work hard. Be stout and strong, as if becoming stout and strong will save him. That's not possible. Guest (1): Modern civilization is a civilization of class, and Vedic civilization was a civilization of soul. We can say that is all. *Prabhupāda: That is the real civilization. Soul is enwrapped with this material body and it has to be stopped. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma [Bg. 4.9]. That is civilization. And he has no knowledge, na te viduḥ, what is the civilization. Then andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. The rascal leader is also blind and the followers are blind, so both of them are doomed. Therefore the conclusion is, the modern civilization is misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. Big, big leaders, they promises big, big ideal that "I shall give you this facility. Just elect me." What facility he will give? No facility. He gives some false promise and gets his election and claps. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. He does not know what is the aim of life. Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. He is animal also. And the other animals clapping, "Oh, we have got such a big leader." Big elephant, yes. (laughter) And elephant he may be, but he is, after all, a animal. What he'll do? Misguided. Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. You don't require any covering? Guest (2): No, I do, but... Guest (1): (Hindi) My daughter. Prabhupāda: I have not seen him? Guest (1): He used to come. *Prabhupāda: So anyone's question about this, this misdirected civilization? In India there was no such misguided civilization. Now they have learned how to misguide people, and they have taken this ideal, that "Unless we become like the Europeans and Americans our progress is checked." This is going on. Actually there is no progress. We are condemned. Why they should waste so much energy not for progress. Before British period, India, there were cities, but not like this because their energy was utilized. Cities were constructed especially in pilgrimages, like Mathurā. Mathurā is very old city, but that is a pilgrimage. Dvārakā, that is also very old city. First of all there was no need of big, big cities because there was no industry. They did not know what is industry. And there were ample food*-food grains, milk, vegetables. Those who were eating meat, they were eating small, nonimportant animals like goats, hogs, and they never touched cows. Cows are very important animals. Even the stool, urine, is important. In the agricultural field the cows, passing stool, they will also benefit. Natural fertilizing. Dr. Patel: And From cows' dung we have produced penicillin in Calcutta (indistinct). Prabhupāda: That may be, but why penicillin is required? Dr. Patel: No, but that means it had some value right from beginning. Our forefathers must have known it. Why they did not... *Prabhupāda: No, no, we are speaking... We are speaking... Because it is important, therefore Kṛṣṇa said, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Why go-rakṣya required, you do not require any explanation. Kṛṣṇa said, go-rakṣya, "You must protect." That's all. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Because we have no brain why Kṛṣṇa-giving up all other animals*-He is giving stress on go. And that is meaning. He never said, animal-rakṣya, paśu-rakṣya, no. Those who want to eat paśu, let them eat nonimportant like hogs and dogs. There are class of men who eat dogs also, hogs also. Or, utmost, goats. But don't touch cow. This is instruction. And modern civilization first of all killed all the cows. And when they are no more available then can you eat other animals. I do not know why our government is now restricting cow slaughter. Dr. Patel: They have banned the cow slaughter all over India now. Prabhupāda: I know that. Eh. Guest (3): This is only in Maharastra, on the... Dr. Patel: They are restricting in Maharastra also. Prabhupāda: No, what is the reason all of a sudden they have good sense? Dr. Patel: Vinode Bhave wanted it. Prabhupāda: Vinode Bhave is not so important. There is government policy, something. Otherwise they could not care what Vinode Bhave said. It is... Don't think it is due to Vinode Bhave's request. Dr. Patel: No, but that is what apparently... Prabhupāda: What Vinode Bhave. There were so many agitation for stopping cow slaughter, big, big, Karpatraji and others, others... Guest (4): One Śaṅkarācārya fasted seventy days. Prabhupāda: Yes, so they didn't care. Now, all of a sudden, why this good sense? Vinode Bhave is not very important. There is some policy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that Sanjay Gandhi who is very influential is a staunch supporter of Hinduism. Prabhupāda: Oh, that may be cause. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I read in the papers the other day. He addressed the youth of the Arya Samaj. Prabhupāda: I understand from our propaganda that one... What is the Swami? Devotee: Chandra Swami. Prabhupāda: Chandra Swami. He is the president? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, of Bharat (indistinct). Prabhupāda: He has recommended our case, that "This is the only institution who is making the Christian Hindu. Before this movement the Christian converted Hindus. Nobody could convert the Christian to become Hindu. And this is the only movement that is converting Christian to Hindu." So he is very much in favor of this movement, and it is understood that he talked with Indira Gandhi in telephone. So maybe that if that Hindu movement is increasing and in India the cow slaughter is going on, and it is against Hindu, (they) might have considered like that. Dr. Patel: Pakistan has banned cow slaughter. Because they had done away by vengeance, all the cows. They wanted to spite the Hindus, kill the cows. Hari-śauri: I don't think they kill cows in China either because its economic value is too great. Prabhupāda: That means they are coming to the sense how cow is important. (pause) It is said that he wants to see me. *Hari-śauri: Yes, at Kumbha*-mela. *Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Before me, for the last two hundred years, so many swamis and yogis went to the Western countries. Nobody could convert a single person to Hinduism. That is a fact in the history. These foreigners-giving up meat-eating, illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling*-it is a horrible thing for them. Lord Zetland said, "This is impossible for us." Factually it is impossible, because American government spent millions of dollars to stop this LSD intoxication but it was not successful. But they have seen that as soon as the same boy comes to our camp, he immediately gives up, immediately, without any protest, that "Why shall I give up?" No. I ask, "You have to give up." "Yes, we do." That's a fact. Therefore this Swami Chit? Jagadīśa: Chandra Swami. Prabhupāda: Ah, Chandra Swami, has strongly recommended that "This is the only movement which is converting Christian into Hindu." He is pleased on this account. He is not interested our Hare... He has said that "I am not very much interested in Hare Kṛṣṇa, but I am interested in this point." That is natural, that nobody could convert the Christian to Hindu, but this movement is doing that. Yaśomatīnandana: That is indirectly accepting Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. We do not make any compromise. Vivekananda went there. He came back. He said, "What is the wrong in meat*-eating?" He introduced meat-eating amongst his contemporary sannyāsīs. This is his vedānta-pracāra. So he is advertised that he preached Vedānta all over America, and everyone has become Vedantist. What is...? What kind of Vedantist? Now, he introduced meat-eating amongst the sannyāsīs, which was never in India, any... There are two sets of sannyāsīs, the Śaṅkara sampradāya and Vaiṣṇava sampradāya. But their ācāra is the same. They may differ in philosophy, but their ācāra is the same. Rather, the Śaṅkara sampradāya sannyāsī are more strict than the Vaiṣṇava sannyāsī. Śaṅkara sampradāya sannyāsī, they'll never occupy a seat, those who are strictly following. They'll sit down on the floor. Without any āsana. They lie down on the floor. They are so renounced. And what is this, that sannyāsī smoking and drinking? And ordinary sannyāsīs, they are drinking also tea, one ghara (?). I have seen it. *Bhava*-bhūti: Now Rajneesh gives sannyāsī and sannyāsinī. Prabhupāda: Ācchā, yes. Sannyāsinī, woman sannyāsī. Yaśomatīnandana: It's just a mockery. He's not making any sannyāsī. He's not sannyāsa; he just gives name sannyāsa. *Hari-śauri: Neo*-sannyāsa he called it. Prabhupāda: No, no, they dress like sannyāsī. Yaśomatīnandana: They dress, but they smoke biḍi, they... *Prabhupāda: They say, nava*-sannyāsa. They say, nava-sannyāsa. Dr. Patel: Neo. *Prabhupāda: Neo*-sannyāsa. *Hari-śauri: There were three or four of them came to stay at the guest house in Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma guest house. Prabhupāda: Yes. Husband and wife sannyāsa. (laughter) *Hari-śauri: Yes. They were saying, "I am sannyāsī, and my brother is sannyāsī, and my wife is sannyāsī, but my mother*-in-law, she is not sannyāsī." (laughter) *Prabhupāda: This is Kali*-yuga. Rascals, they are doing anything and any... *Yaśomatīnandana: And he also has written Bhagavad*-gītā, his own Bhagavad-gītā... Hari-śauri: It's five to seven. Prabhupāda: So let us go down. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya. (end) *Room Conversation-*-December 27, 1976, Bombay Hari-śauri: The following is a conversation held in Śrīla Prabhupāda's room regarding the starting up of yoga courses for tourists in Vṛndāvana and Bombay. Prabhupāda: There are... Just note down. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, if you teach yoga system, they'll pay for that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is how it's going to work. We are going to give them free yoga lessons. They will come in our guesthouse and live there. But we have already increased the rate of the room. Prabhupāda: That is not good. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, this is how all these yoga camps are working. They make their money from the rest, from the rent. Prabhupāda: One who is not going to learn yoga system, then they have to pay increased rate. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. This is an extra facility. In other words... Prabhupāda: No, extra facility is... Somebody may be interested in learning yoga, others may not be. So why he should pay more? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well we can charge them little more. I am just saying how the other establishments are running because this is the big attraction to get people, and almost every foreigner will be interested in this. This is like... It's not that they are really getting it free because we are covering ourselves by increasing the rates and the restaurant... Prabhupāda: You are covering, but those who are not interested, why they should pay more? That is my point. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. But... Yes... But the answer is, we have established a double pricing system, for all foreigners are paying fifteen rupees for single room, twenty*-five for double. And the Indians are paying eight and fifteen. Prabhupāda: When they understand that you have got such discrimination, they are dissatisfied. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, what we have done, we have added in various different points like extra bedsheet, one rupee, extra this... We have added in these extra points. So the total does come to fifteen and twenty. I have spoken to all the travel agencies, and they are willing to go along with us. In fact, they think that fifteen and twenty*-five is very cheap. But I then explain to them that we can't make it any more because we are in competition with... Prabhupāda: But you don't get customer even lesser than that. First of all see your position. You may calculate in the mind that "This is cheap, this is not," but cheap or no cheap, you are not getting any customers. (chuckling) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, because we never went after the tourist traffic. We have just started going after this foreign traffic with these brochures, and now we have... *Prabhupāda: And now, in the Sixth Chapter there are forty*-seven verses. So divide forty-seven with seven. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's seven. Hari-śauri: Seven. Jagadīśa: Almost seven. Hari-śauri: You want to do like seven verses a day? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, we can do seven verses a day. *Prabhupāda: Forty*-seven verses should be divided by seven. So daily seven verses, average, one class. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: One hour class? Jagadīśa: No, you said three hours a day. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but that... It doesn't have to be spread out. This is... Prabhupāda: One hour... To explain seven verses may take more than one hour. It will take not less than two hours. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We want to have, in total, three hours of total yoga a day, including practice and class, like two hours in the morning, one hour in the evening. Prabhupāda: So practice two hours and one hour class. And the yoga class, they should be given the seat caila, jina, ajina, kuśottaram. Seat. One straw... That... What is called? Kuśa... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Kuśa grass. Prabhupāda: Kuśa grass. Kuśāsana, very nice, nice, and broad, especially. Upon this, there is a deerskin. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should get deerskin also? Prabhupāda: And how you will get? Why you are asking this nonsense question? Unless you get, why you waste time in that way? Where is...? Have you got? This is extra question. You must get. So, first of all this kuśāsana, then the deerskin and then a linen. Cailājina... Hari-śauri: Caila, agna, ajina, sutaram,(?) kuśottaram. Prabhupāda: Kuśottaram means upon the kuśāsana these, ajina, caila, caila... What is caila? Hari-śauri: Caila, ajina, soft cloth and deerskin. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So kuśa, deerskin, soft cloth. Jagadīśa: Cotton cloth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It should be of cotton. Prabhupāda: Āsana, soft āsana. First of all, this kuśāsana, then the deerskin and then one... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Soft cloth. This will be excellent because nobody else is teaching yoga this way. *Prabhupāda: No. So they will sit down and perpendicularly. Perpendicularly, if you sit in this way, then you will automatically you become perfect yogi. Automatically. This should be practiced. In every class they should sit down with like this, like this, and they will not close the eyes but half*-closed and see here. Hari-śauri: Staring at the tip of the nose. *Jagadīśa: They supposed to look cross*-eyed? In order to look at the tip of the nose... Prabhupāda: That's all. *Jagadīśa: ...you have to look cross*-eyed? Prabhupāda: Why cross? You see, just easy, simply. That's all. This... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can sit straight and also look. Prabhupāda: Yes. This has to be practiced. And then they should be given lesson on six or seven verses very elaborately, and they will hear. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They should sit like this, and then they should hear. Prabhupāda: So simple thing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they may want... Prabhupāda: So one, first, seven śloka they'll hear, then next class, they'll go to the next, in the next class, and next class, next class. In this way, one after another, within seven days they'll get the whole lesson. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So if we want to have three hours total. Even in the class... Prabhupāda: Two hours. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...they should be sitting like this, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So, in other words, the total three hours that they have to be like this... Prabhupāda: Not total three hours. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Then what will they do in the third hour? Hari-śauri: Well, I was thinking that... Prabhupāda: There is no "I was thinking." This is nonsense. We must do according to the... Hari-śauri: But can't we bring chanting of japa into it? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Mantra*-yoga. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: That was my idea, that they should chant half an hour japa before class, and then sit in the posture and then have the philosophy because the chanting... First of all explain the purpose of chanting to fix the mind; then, once they've chanted, then they can sit and listen, and because they've chanted, they'll be that much more attentive. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's good idea. That's good idea. First chanting, second chanting. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: First chant half an hour... Prabhupāda: Then lesson, take lesson. And then chant another... Hari-śauri: Then, after that, some kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Japa first, then class and then kīrtana. Prabhupāda: At last kīrtana. Hari-śauri: That would be like half an hour, an hour. *Prabhupāda: And the class will be changed*-first seven verses explain. Next verse, next seven... In this way, today this room, next day that room, next day that room, next day that room. Room. That will be class, not in the same. Because if somebody is hearing the first seven ślokas, then how the who are on the second seven ślokas... Hari-śauri: Oh, your idea is the class will go simultaneously. Prabhupāda: Yes. So in this way we have to occupy seven rooms, big rooms. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But this means we have to have seven teachers also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So what we have to do, we'll have to have courses starting every Monday. So suppose I come in on Saturday I have to wait till Monday for the course to start. Prabhupāda: No, why? Why? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because we do not have, realistically speaking, seven qualified teachers. *Prabhupāda: Why? What is the qualification? They cannot read Bhagavad*-gītā? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, at least you need some intelligence. Like... Prabhupāda: But if we are scarcity of such intelligent men, then close it. What is this nonsense? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also you have to be a good speaker to keep people's attention. Prabhupāda: So that will depend on practice. You practice it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because the people who come are very sophisticated. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then why...? You become expert. If you cannot find out seven men, then what is this institution? Anyway, one may not be very expert, but he should practice how to explain. The explanation is there. He has to simply do it very nicely, that's all. Everything is there. And the students should sit down in that way here. That's all. It's not at all difficult. Jagadīśa: Usually the yoga camps begin on a certain date and finish on a certain date. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: Usually the yoga camps advertise to begin lessons on a certain date and finish by a certain date. Prabhupāda: That is seven days. Jagadīśa: Yes. But they don't stagger it. Hari-śauri: They don't stagger the course, yes. See, if he arranges with, say, like... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Courses start every Monday. Hari-śauri: Then they'll advertise that there's a course starting every Monday and finishing every Sunday, like that. And then they'll book in accordance so that they'll arrive on a Monday and they'll drive out on Sunday night or... Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. But what is the difficulty? He is... On Monday he is hearing in one room, and Tuesday another room, and Thursday another room. So where is the difficulty? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also, this way we have to reserve seven rooms. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But this way, if we have courses Monday to Sunday, we can have one big hall, just keep one hall for yoga class. Prabhupāda: I mean you cannot give two kinds of classes in one room. That is not possible. That is nonsense. Even if you have got one student, he must be in that particular class. You cannot hold all the classes in one room, no, you have to... No, for seven days you have to give seven rooms, even there is one student. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if it is the same class... It's not going to be a different class. Prabhupāda: Yes. Different verses we shall explain. It is different class. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: We explain seven verses from Bhagavad*-gītā on Monday. And the next seven verses will be in the next room, and those who are beginning, they will be in the first room. Hari-śauri: Yes, that's if you have two or three batches of tourists coming in at different times. But his idea was that all the tourists would come at one time and go through the course and then leave. And then a new batch would come. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And if they came on Saturday for example... *Prabhupāda: No, why don't you understand? Why you are dull*-headed? The one class is for one set of verses. Where is the difficulty? [break] ...so in the same class, it will be not good. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we will not have a person in the next... Prabhupāda: No, you have or not have, you have to make this arrangement. In one room one set of verses you should explain. Otherwise, if some student comes, first set of verses explained, and he comes, so you cannot explain the same verses to somebody and next verses somebody in the same class. That is not good. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Our program, therefore, to avoid this, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that our courses will start every Monday, end every Sunday. Prabhupāda: Your course will start every Monday? What do you mean by that? Through first... First six verses... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Will be done on Monday. Prabhupāda: That's all. Next six verses, Tuesday. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: On Tuesday. So like this, it will go on. So suppose I am a tourist, and I come to the guesthouse on Wednesday. So I will wait in the guesthouse till Sunday. Prabhupāda: No! Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I will start my next class next Monday. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is your dull brain. On Wednesday also, the first class is going on. Hari-śauri: Yes, I understand what you want. Prabhupāda: So why he has to wait? Hari-śauri: All seven classes have to go on simultaneously every day. Prabhupāda: Yes! Yes. But you are so fertile brain you cannot understand. Why he has to wait? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because... Jagadīśa: We can understand. Hari-śauri: He's not expecting that so many people... Prabhupāda: Every class is going on every day. Those who are coming new, they take first lesson in the first room. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I follow... Prabhupāda: So either it is Wednesday or Monday, it doesn't matter. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are three problems that I... Prabhupāda: What is that problem? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: First problem is, we'll have to reserve seven rooms... Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...and lose money. Prabhupāda: No lose money. Jagadīśa: There are rooms in the gurukula. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but that cannot be used for tourists at the moment. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why cannot be used? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A gurukula room? They are not ready for use. The people who come... Prabhupāda: Well, it will be finished by the time your customers... Hari-śauri: Your tourist traffic is not going to come immediately. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These are the months now, December, January, February... Prabhupāda: All right, it has to be done like that, that all classes are going on every day. One who comes on Wednesday, it does not mean he has to wait. The class is there. It doesn't matter Wednesday or Friday. Next day he goes there, next class, next day he goes, next class. The difficulty may be that we have to set aside seven rooms. That we have got, room. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That we have in the gurukula building... Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...but not at the moment. Prabhupāda: No, no. gurukula building. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And also... Prabhupāda: Gurukula building is meant for instruction. And the guesthouse is meant for boarding and lodging. That's all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we wanted to take advantage of it in a month or so, like the tourists... Prabhupāda: By month, it will be done. The gurukula downstairs will be ready. Hari-śauri: There must be some rooms suitable by a month. Prabhupāda: If not, for the temporary you can hold somewhere. That doesn't matter. But the system will be this education will be given in the gurukula building. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Now, we're also going to do this in Bombay, Śrīla Prabhupāda because... Prabhupāda: But first of all, you make one successful here. Then you think of other. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But now we should not teach them any exercise at all? Prabhupāda: This is exercise. If he sits down two hours like that, it is more than exercise. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But this may not satisfy them. They may want to do... *Prabhupāda: No, we are not going to satisfy them. This is our... This is our process. If you want to learn, then we have to learn according to Bhagavad*-gītā. We are not going to flatter you. Hari-śauri: If we explain that the whole purpose of the exercises... Prabhupāda: That is the explanation required. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Is to concentrate, and by concentration your health will improve. Hari-śauri: The idea is to tone the body so the senses are subdued. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: So we engage their senses in kīrtana. Prabhupāda: That is the actual fact. You read that portion. Jagadīśa: They are coming to India to learn yoga, right? What is the perfection of yoga? Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but they... Prabhupāda: They cannot dictate. That is not... Hari-śauri: If they want exercise, we can stand them up, arms in the air, they can dance and they can chant. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll make the kīrtana so ecstatic that they are jumping. Prabhupāda: Yes, he can dance. He can dance. Hari-śauri: Then they jump and then... Prabhupāda: Dance and chant. This is best exercise. We allow them to dance very... Yes. High jump. Actually that is exercise and, at the same time ecstasy. If they dance and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, it is automatically a very big exercise and spiritual advancement. Yes. Yes. There is no doubt about it. If he chants and dances, immediately he become ecstatic. Hari-śauri: Breathing is there. Prabhupāda: Ah! Yes. Hari-śauri: Everything is there. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, that why... It depends on the teacher. If the teacher is a very good speaker and preacher, he can, right in the introduction, point out how this yoga is different from the other yogas which are bogus. Prabhupāda: Don't say it is different. It is the authorized. Hari-śauri: There's no need to mention anything else. Prabhupāda: It is authorized, and it is taught by *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*. Others are unauthorized. This is authorized. And that's a fact. This is authorized. And others, those, they are manufactured. Just like they have manufa... *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It is authorized in the Bhagavad*-gītā. *Prabhupāda: In every... Bhagavad... This is Vedic. Bhagavad*-gītā means the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And which other way can be authorized way? You have to impress that upon. Jagadīśa: That's two hours. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Another one hour... Prabhupāda: Chanting, dancing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually... Prabhupāda: They haven't got to attend other classes. Let them chant and dance, kīrtana, other one hour. Because here is the class. They'll simply sit down in that yogic posture and hear. That's all. You explain. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These people are... I understand this... Jagadīśa: No, they have a misconception what yoga is. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I know, I know. But if we want to get repeat business... Prabhupāda: No no, we are not after business. This is our... Hari-śauri: Our program is the most attractive. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: When they go to these yoga classes; they don't get anything. Prabhupāda: We are not going to flatter them. If you want to learn, you have to learn according to the authorized way. Jagadīśa: The appeal of these other groups is sex. We're not interested in that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No I'm not saying sex. Jagadīśa: Well, it is. That's how they're appealing. Hari-śauri: Their whole platform is bogus then. Prabhupāda: They are all bogus. Bogus. We are not going to follow the bogus. At least in these seven days they must not have any sex. Then he will be all right. They'll get some benefit. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's described here also. That will come out automatically in the class, that one has to sit... Prabhupāda: They will have to take thrice bath and eat frugally, not voraciously. If they want real treatment, that will benefit them. If they have got some ideas of yoga and we have to cheat them, that is impossible. Jagadīśa: Why should we have to cheat them? *Prabhupāda: They want to be cheated but we cannot cheat. For getting some customer you have to flatter them*-that is not possible. And while explaining the ślokas, you have to stress on this point, that this is bona fide; all others are cheating. That requires on your preaching power. Hari-śauri: Actually I was reading through your purports in this chapter the other day, and everything, every aspect, is completely explained in the purports. If one carefully reads this chapter then there's no problem. You just preach whatever is there. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What we could do is... I mean you may not like this... Publish a small booklet just based on the Sixth Chapter. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just publish the Sixth Chapter, that this is our booklet on yoga. Prabhupāda: No, you can make a booklet, the Sixth Chapter explained, and posture, how to sit. That sitting down, that will attract. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they want to see these things. Prabhupāda: That sitting posture will attract them. Give them figure, "This is the posture of sitting," and they will hear. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What we can do, have a small booklet on yoga... *Prabhupāda: Concentrate on viṣṇu*-mūrti here, in the heart, and hear... This will immediately give some effect. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Or... Yes. We can have some pictures of people. And we'll publish your Sixth Chapter, like, just like publishing Sixth Chapter of the Gītā with a two*-page introduction how this yoga is different from others and this is a guide, the Sixth Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā, the most ancient Hindu scripture, Indian scripture. Prabhupāda: So keep some price for that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That will be like a separate book, five rupees, with some illustrations... Prabhupāda: Make that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And then like we can have some... People are very much into beads... Prabhupāda: And dancing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we'll have some neckbeads they'll take with a small statue, Deity, pendant of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: So then there is one artist. He has come to paint pictures. Explain. He will give you. Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, yes, very good. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And plus he can do that for the new brochure also. We can have like a necklace with a pendant of Viṣṇu, four*-handed, to meditate. *Hari-śauri: We have a proper shelf there which will supply hari*-nāma cādara, beads, beadbag, everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Take this idea. Note down. First of all make this brochure. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That brochure which I made on Vṛndāvana, just one page, I'm taking up, Vṛndāvana and other temple pictures, and putting in a section on yoga. Prabhupāda: So see how you have done. Hari-śauri: If we don't have our own shop there which sells everything, then they'll just go down Loi Bazaar and buy it. Prabhupāda: No, we have our own shop and... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we are having our own shop now in the gurukula. We are having it before the festival. We are having that before the festival. Hari-śauri: It should be open for this course. Prabhupāda: Another thing, that... I don't think they are very serious, that... They have paid that 250 rupees rate? This bank? They wrote they are going to pay. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Last I heard when I left is they had got their approval to pay two hundred rupees, but they haven't paid so far. Prabhupāda: No, they have written 250. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They wrote 250? Viśvambhara told me... Hari-śauri: I saw that letter, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: 250. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually that room is a very good room. Prabhupāda: Where is that letter? Bank's letter. Hari-śauri: From Gupta. Prabhupāda: From Gupta, bank letter, Hyderabad. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Which Gupta? The accountant of Punjab National... Prabhupāda: Yes. I have replied that letter on the other day. You do not know? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you want us to use that room? The room in which the bank is? Jagadīśa: Oh yes. You mean about the rent? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: Yes, he said 250. Prabhupāda: Yes. Find out that letter. Hari-śauri: There's a reply to it too. Prabhupāda: Where is the letter? Hari-śauri: He says there's going to be women coming... Prabhupāda: But there is no instruction. For women there is no such thing. Hari-śauri: No women on the course. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No women? Prabhupāda: That is bogus, another bogus. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's bogus. But we have a lot of women who are coming to India for yoga. Half... The traffic is half men, half women. Prabhupāda: Women cannot do it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And a lot of the tourists who come, they are husband, wife and all together. Why don't we let them wear normal dress but have men and women in the same class. Hari-śauri: We could... It's just a suggestion, but what about if you have... Prabhupāda: Normal dress, that is standard. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Or yoga pants. They can have pajamas and kurtās. Hari-śauri: A separate woman's class? But that means, yes. That means you have to have women teachers. Prabhupāda: These are artificial things. Hari-śauri: Mixed class, but... Prabhupāda: For woman there is no... Jagadīśa: I think we should avoid women altogether. Avoid women altogether? *Prabhupāda: Women, it is only possible in our Vaiṣṇava bhakti*-yoga-women and men can be given equal right. There is no other system. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They can wear a normal dress. *Hari-śauri: If they wear those big robes... Sometimes I see... It's a one*-piece thing. It comes down to their ankles. If they wear something like that, it's all right. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they want to do something different. They want to see different things. If we give them a pajama and kurtā, we'll still make them do bhakti*-yoga, but it's... *Prabhupāda: Bhakti*-yoga, chanting, dancing there will be. They can join. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but... Prabhupāda: But they cannot practice. They cannot sit down like this, the women. They'll be tired. This is real practice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think even the men... Prabhupāda: Yogāsana. Yogāsana, dhyāna, dhāraṇā, āsana. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's so then we can show them, "See this yoga is...," because it appears a little difficult, it is the best form of yoga. It's not something easy that you can just do in one second. Jagadīśa: So what's the conclusion? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They will sit together. Jagadīśa: So he says... He thinks the conclusion is that the women will be in the class. Prabhupāda: There, but in plain dress. Yes, man must be there. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Plain dress or if they wear dresses, they can have pant*-kurtā pajamas. Prabhupāda: Why pant? Hari-śauri: They can wear a long robe. That's better, like one of those complete robes. Prabhupāda: Yes, long robe. Hari-śauri: Rajneesh people wear them. Prabhupāda: These Hare Kṛṣṇa nāmāvali robe. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, very good idea. We can make Hare Kṛṣṇa... *Hari-śauri: Out of a nāmāvali, yeah. Nāma cādara. Hari*-nāma cādara. Prabhupāda: You can have some robe... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, we can have... Prabhupāda: ...some covering. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, this will be very good. This will really make us look different from others. We're giving kuśa grass, linen, and robe, beads... Prabhupāda: And they will understand that they are actually doing something. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And they will see, because these karmīs, they look for these tangible differences. Prabhupāda: At least twice taking bath and then chanting, dancing and so on. Hari-śauri: Yes. They're coming for some... Just to... Prabhupāda: They want something. So this is the bona fide method. *Jagadīśa: Are you having tours where they'll go to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That is during the rest of the time. Hari-śauri: There's a very nice thing about this program, is that you can guarantee everyone who comes is going to be interested. Prabhupāda: So I have given to you three. Now you jointly do immediately. The artist is there. Get painting. That's... That's all right. Hari-śauri: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Room Conversationwith Fate-*-December 27, 1976, Bombay *Rādhā*-vallabha: This is for the theistic exhibition. This is the copy for the sound track, and when the karmīs first walk in, this is the sound track that will play. Prabhupāda: No, no. You keep here. *Rādhā*-vallabha: So this is like the introduction for the entire thing. Then it comes up to the point when they see the diorama of yourself, and there's a certain part where they want to have you thinking. Prabhupāda: But here diorama should be explained in the local language. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Here in India. This is for the American one. Prabhupāda: Oh, American. That's all right. *Rādhā*-vallabha: So would you like me to read it to you? Prabhupāda: Hm, hm. *Rādhā*-vallabha: This is the very beginning. "Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the First American Theistic Exhibition. Since time immemorial we have inquired about our origin. We have tried to understand our place in the universe, the nature of birth and death, free will and predestination, time, God, and nature. However, even after countless years of philosophical study and comprehensive research these questions still remain for the most part a mystery. The words you are about to hear were written five thousand years ago in a language no longer spoken called Sanskrit." Prabhupāda: No longer spoken? Why? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I was just wondering about that myself. No longer spoken on the earth? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is spoken in India. There are many scholars who speak Sanskrit. In Europe also. *Rādhā*-vallabha: So we should just say, "Five thousand years ago in a language called Sanskrit." Prabhupāda: Which is still continuing, but in a limited circle. *Rādhā*-vallabha: "They come from a text which bears the most profound truths ever revealed to mankind. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]." It's that series of verses. "This supreme science was received through the chain of disciplic succession and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost. That very ancient science of the relationship with the Supreme is today told by Me to you because you are My devotee as well as My friend. Therefore you can understand the transcendental mystery of this science. Preserved by the invincible tradition of spiritual scholars known as the disciplic succession, these original words spoken by Lord Kṛṣṇa to one of his most intimate devotees were recorded in a book called Bhagavad-gītā, Sanskrit for the 'Song of God.' Today a unique presentation of this ancient classic has aroused keen interest and deep appreciation from leading scholars in diverse disciplines. It was brought to the West by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, who is a living link in the chain of disciplic succession. Bhagavad-gītā, long viewed with awe by many contemporary and early Western thinkers, is not a simple summary of the Hindu faith, although it is the book of truth for some five hundred million people. It is a scientific study of universal, spiritual truths, far above sectarian doctrines and ethnic beliefs. Bhagavad-gītā is a study of the nature and origin of consciousness. Śrīla Prabhupāda, the world's most distinguished scholar of Vedic writings and a true humanitarian, began his labor of love in this tiny room in a temple in one of India's holiest cities, Vṛndāvana." This is when the scene of your working in the Rādhā-Dāmodara room comes on. "Working often throughout the night, Śrīla Prabhupāda painstakingly carried out the request of his spiritual predecessor to bring the message of Bhagavad-gītā to the Western world." Now this is the part that... This will be a recording of you speaking, and it will appear to be you thinking in the display. "Out of many, many human beings, Bhagavad-gītā is directed to the one who seeks to understand his position. The Lord has great mercy for human beings, therefore He spoke the Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, a saintly prince, to enlighten him. Arjuna was actually above ignorance, but he was put into ignorance on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra just to ask about the meaning of life so that our mission of life can be perfected.' " So Bharadvāja wants to know if you could say this one into a microphone so he could use it in the display. (end) *Morning Walk-*-December 28, 1976, Bombay Girirāja: He made another point that in Krishna Shankar Sastri's compiling of the commentaries, commentators, that Śrīdhara Svāmī is given the first position. Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: But he says that is because he was the first. But it does not mean he was the best. Prabhupāda: (laughs) It's nonsense. Unless one is best why he should be given first? Any... If there is any meeting, the most important man is given the first position. At least out of respect. Everyone has given first position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore praised. What is his nonsense arguments? Yaśomatīnandana: There are two other versions of *Bhāgavatam*. There also, Śrīdhara Svāmī has been considered the best commentator. Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepts. Svāmī nā māne yei jana veśyāra bhitare. Everyone has given. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, iti svāmī caraṇa kahe.(?) Jīva Gosvāmī, all authorities, they accept. And why they are criticizing Śrīdhara Svāmī? Girirāja: That is the main point. Prabhupāda: That is the main point. If you can criticize Śrīdhara Svāmī, then your criticism, why you take the criticism. Then others, you must be judged. Indian devotee: Because all of the (indistinct) gurus, they are all devotees now, all of them. *Prabhupāda: So what they are going to answer to this? Will you accept everything? Ask them. So when the (indistinct), but exposes you, what answer you have got? Why you are silent? Silent means acceptance. Maunam (indistinct). If I say, "You are rascal, you are thief," and if you don't reply that means you accept it. Maunam (indistinct). If you do not protest, and if you do not say anything, so such a big criticism from (indistinct) and they are silent. Why do they not go to the court? Bluff (indistinct). That means he accepts. (indistinct) has been made here? (static*-very indistinct for some time) (Hindi) Indian devotee: He was here also with (indistinct) Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Another (indistinct) also. (indistinct) Indian devotee: He is son of (indistinct) Mahārāja, but he is very envious. Very, very envious. I went to him, I remember. Prabhupāda: They are envious of the Gauḍīya Sampradāya. Because of (indistinct) Since a long time. Yaśomatīnandana: But they cannot say anything against Gauḍīya Sampradāya because Vallabhācārya glorified Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot say anything against Caitanya Mahāprabhu because Vallabhācārya glorified Him. Prabhupāda: No. He has written to (indistinct)? Girirāja: Yes. He made another point, that is Vallabhācārya actually considered Caitanya Mahāprabhu as his superior. Then after this incident, still, he criticized Śrīdhara Swami. So that means he did not accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu as superior. *Prabhupāda: There is no question of accept. He was plainly defeated. Because he said that (indistinct). Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted his invitation after this. He also invited and he also (indistinct) ...talk like that. Not only that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu criticized, but as soon as Vallabhācārya invited, He accepted. There was no enviousness. Rather friendly, sometimes they call others are (indistinct). Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu would accept invitation from Vallabhācārya. But they are habituated to criticize (indistinct). That Caitanya Mahāprabhu chastised him: "Why should you think like that?" In a friendly way. (indistinct) They are still criticizing Śrīdhara Swami, and if others criticize them, "Why you are criticizing Śrīdhara Swami?" There is no answer. This is the position. (indistinct*-only fragments of conversation audible for some time) *Hari-śauri: They have no (indistinct) because they even refute one other in the śāstra. They would criticize that Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja made mistakes when he wrote the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: They say like that? Hari-śauri: Yeah, he said that he didn't know he wrote the wrong version in the section about Vallabhācārya and that the real version is somewhere else. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) *Hari-śauri: Yeah, well they don't accept the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) They don't accept, we don't accept you. The whole world is accepting Caitanya*-caritāmṛta (indistinct) all over the world, not just (indistinct). All over the world. (indistinct-fragmentary for some time) Girirāja: They're having a ceremony of bringing the flag. Devotee: Again? Girirāja: Yes. From the Nathadwar, Bombay, at some place. They invited us to do kīrtana. Prabhupāda: You may go. You have no...? You can go. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Last time they would not let us distribute our magazines when they had it in Shrimati Morarji's house. They had the same ceremony in Shrimati Morarji's house here about a year ago and they didn't like our book distribution there. Prabhupāda: What this time where it will be held? Girirāja: This is an organization. Last time was Shrimati Morarji's personal... Prabhupāda: Private house. This is organized function you ask them a place to show our books. If they deny then we don't go. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] *Rādhā*-vallabha: This one parade in Los Angeles, the Rose Bowl, they distribute thousands of books on this one day. What happens is all the karmīs get out there, sometimes the night before, at least very, very early in the morning. They line both sides of the road. Prabhupāda: To see? *Rādhā*-vallabha: To see yes. Approximately a million people. About a million people, they're just lining both sides of the road and the street is empty before the parade. So this year we're going to have the gurukula boys do a kīrtana and go right up the road. So one million people will see the saṅkīrtana party. Guru dāsa: And then it will be on television. *Rādhā*-vallabha: It will probably be on television. *Hari-śauri: They have a similar parade in Melbourne like that called a Moomba. Three*-quarters of a million people come for it and the whole city closes down. And they line up and down the main road and then they have a parade of floats. So they invited that we could put a float in so Bali Mardana said he would try and get the ratha cart in. Three-quarters of a million people seeing Lord Jagannātha. Guru dāsa: Why don't you do that in Los Angeles? (end) *Room Conversation-*-December 28, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...they'll not walk on the street. This was the system. *Rādhā*-vallabha: You would never see them at all. Prabhupāda: That is... *Rādhā*-vallabha: You want lunch? Do you want some lunch, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: If woman walks on the street then she is not respectable. Now women are going to offices. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they are doing everything. Even leading nations. Prabhupāda: Nation is also doing that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In President Carter's new cabinet he included a woman as a secretary now. As a minister, for the first time I think. Hari-śauri: In England also they have a woman Prime Minister for the first time. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: She's a leader of the opposition. Hari-śauri: No, she was the Prime Minister as well. She's the opposition now. Prabhupāda: Woman is acting as police in England. *Rādhā*-vallabha: In Los Angeles there was this one man at the temple that we suspected that he had a gun. So we called the police. It is a difficult job for police when someone has a gun. They always send the best men. So a car pulled up and a woman got out, and she crept up on the man to arrest him and the men stayed in the car. Prabhupāda: Everything is becoming a farce. (pause) What is that? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These are just some letters I'm sending with Rādhā*-vallabha to Los Angeles. *Rādhā*-vallabha: When we reprint the Kṛṣṇa Book trilogy this year, the hardbound, I was wondering, could we put more pictures in the second and third volumes? Not changing, but additional. Prabhupāda: Why increase cost? *Rādhā*-vallabha: I don't think it would be that much. The first volume has over sixty pictures and the second one only has thirty-two and the third only has twenty-four. Anyway, anything we do will increase the cost but not so significant. Few cents. We were thinking that the Kṛṣṇa Books were originally printed many many years ago and since then we have a lot of nice paintings of Kṛṣṇa's pastimes that we could put in. Prabhupāda: If you can give without increasing price, there is no harm. Or for this cents. Let us. Jagadīśa: Prasāda is ready. *Rādhā*-vallabha: If it's only an insignificant increase then we'll put some in. Prabhupāda: But you don't increase price. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Oh, to the temples. Prabhupāda: No, to the customer. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. That's no problem. Prabhupāda: Prasāda ready? Woman: Yes. (end) *Morning Walk-*-December 29, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...free. Free education, why they'll not accept? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Free education they will. Prabhupāda: It is free. Guest (1): It is free education. Prabhupāda: It is free. We are asking people come here, live here, take this education. Guest (1): Nobody pays anything. Prabhupāda: It is free. Everything is free. We are not going to charge anything. Retired man, come here, take this spiritual education. This is our whole system. Hare Kṛṣṇa! Guest (2): Jaya. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Why they'll not do? Just think over this. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have given this main point to our lawyers and this is what we are working on. *Prabhupāda: It is completely educational. Spiritual education. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. It is not religious sentiment. Some Arya-samajis told me in Durban, South Africa, that "Why you are bringing this Hindu idea?" And this is not your Hindu idea. Kṛṣṇa said kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. Does it mean that only Hindus, from boyhood they become youth, and the Musselman does not? What is this nonsense? People are so misguided they cannot understand this simple word, this spiritual education. They say Hindu idea. That only the Hindu boys grow to become young men. The Muslim, the Christian, they do not grow up. Just see how much in darkness they are and how much they require this education. How the world is in need of this spiritual education. And they cannot understand it. Just see how they are dull and rascal headed. Hindus grow only. Huh? Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam... [Bg. 2.13]. Kṛṣṇa said from boyhood to yauvanam, it is Hindu idea. The Arya-samaji friend told me, why you bring this Hindu idea? How much dull they are just imagine. Dr. Patel: I don't think it is dullness. It is fanaticism maybe. *Prabhupāda: And who becomes fanatic? All rascals, dull. They become fanatic. Otherwise, why one should be fanatic? If one has got brain, one has got logic, how he should be fanatic? Fanatics means dullheaded rascal, that's all. The Muslims they become fanatic, we say, generally they are, because they're dullheaded. Always unclean and eating meat and low behavior. What is that? Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca janā na vidur āsurāḥ, na śaucaṁ nāpi cācāraḥ [Bg. 16.7]. This is dull head. There is no cleanliness, no behavior. (Hindi) That is especially mentioned. That ayaṁ deha. Nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. This kind of life is meant for the hogs, not for the human beings. (Hindi) Sex. No discrimination. (Hindi) Sex is a bodily, what is the... Guest (1): Necessity of life. Dr. Patel: Biological necessity. Prabhupāda: Necessity. What is the difference? Why not with sister, why not with daughter or even why not with mother? What is the wrong there? They say like that? Dr. Patel: They consider themselves to be animals. *Prabhupāda: They are animals. Why consider? They are animals. Therefore śāstra says viḍ*-bhujām. Not ordinary animals. A sewer animal. Sewer. (Hindi) Animal society. Dvipāda-paśu. We'll say that "Why you are wasting your time in this so-called material advancement?" How they'll understand? So dull head. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: (laughs) You're right. The modern civilization is the materialists, veda is material. Veda is body consciousness. Prabhupāda: That means sewer civilization. It is sewer civilization. Dr. Patel: ...is only the civilization of *Vedas*. We have lost the Vedic mooring. Prabhupāda: Why India should lost? India is the hope of the whole world and their men have now become sewer, sewer kavaca. That is my regret. Others may be, but why Indians? Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, Dr. Patel: We have become, sir, in a way, because we have... Prabhupāda: Anyway, you should check now. Dr. Patel: Our system has been... Prabhupāda: You should check now. You should revive now. Dr. Patel: The Vedic civilization is the base of our making a man. I mean, truly a good man. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (2): No, we should check it. That is the point. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (chants japa) [break] Hindu idea. Hindu idea. [break] You know that? fetus? What is that? Killing and eating. Dr. Patel: Somebody told. You or somebody. No? Prabhupāda: No, not somebody. Everybody says. Not some. Everyone knows. It is common practice. Delicacy. Dr. Patel: The idea is so abominable to our culture. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Sewers activity's all abominable. Dr. Patel: But this idea of eating a fetus is extremely abominable. You can't think of it. I mean a baby having developed, we can't imagine. Prabhupāda: But you must know it. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: ...makes the way Western civilized people kill, we simply shudder at the very idea. Others, they're not able to, I mean, bear the sight of meat. Prabhupāda: Our men, those who are not educated, they are better than the... That people may call superstition, but if they are going by the old superstition they would have... I have seen in, sometimes in 1945 or '46, in a train one village girl was sitting and covering. She's young girl, going to her husband's house. What is that? Kane. Dr. Patel: Gomath, gangath.(?) *Prabhupāda: No no. Kane. After... Because formerly the girls were married early. So after getting puberty there is one ceremony, it is called diti*-abhi-bha.(?) Another ceremony. And then she goes to her husband's house. So she was going there with presentation of father, mother. So she was covered. So another young girl, up-to-date, she was doing like this. They were girls. One can touch another. So once, twice. When it made thrice, that village girl slapped her, "Hut!" I said, "Yes, you have done right." She was thinking, the city girl was thinking, "What is this nonsense?" She wanted to criticize... (laughs) Guest (1): She got a slap. *Prabhupāda: And she gave a good slap. I've seen it. She's up*-to-date and she became surprised. Lifting the avaguṇṭhana. So the whole train, they became laughed. And woman, the shyness is the only protection for them. Guest (1): Shyness. Dr. Patel: Modesty. Prabhupāda: Modesty. There is no modesty left. Anyway, and that is the beauty. But we are breaking that. There is no beauty, no attraction. And as soon as you break this modesty, shyness, then the woman will create devastation. Dr. Patel: Yes. They have been. They have finished now. Hari-śauri: There's no carpet to sit down in front of... Oh, here it is. Dr. Patel: No, If you sit down, these swellings will become less on the feet. Prabhupāda: No, a little movement. Dr. Patel: We got your examined. You haven't got much diabetes now. But unfortunately kidneys are... Prabhupāda: I'm not eating all. Dr. Patel: No, after kidneys are little affected. It was lack of albumen and perhaps you'll be all right by this shapauri.(?) You know this shapauri. Shapauri's growing in our own garden here. That (indistinct) will be coming on first day at six o'clock. Prabhupāda: What is that satavari,(?) you see. If it is medicine, we can have. Dr. Patel: He will guide you better than me. At six o'clock we have to send somebody to catch him on his consulting. He stays somewhere... His house number is 36. Guest (2): If they let me know I can bring him. Dr. Patel: He has already given time, six o'clock. If you can go and bring him at six o'clock... Guest (2): No, then they will have to come from all the way here. Dr. Patel: No, no. He will be coming here. [break] Prabhupāda: (Hindi) This is fact. The whole world has become sewer. (Hindi) Including India. It is not that India is now human being. No. India has also become sewer. So it is a great service. This is the only service to the human society. And to keep them sewer and organizing United Nations. What the sewer will unite? Dr. Patel: United Nation of sewers. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. So how it will be successful? Guest (1): That is all they have. This is disunited nation, not united nation. Prabhupāda: I said in some public meeting in Melbourne, "The United Nation is the assembly of some dogs. They are barking." And newspapermen added, "The Swami has come to hound you." (laughter) Eh? What is that? Hari-śauri: "His Divine Grace is here to hound us." Prabhupāda: Hound. Yes. So I attacked the whole United Nations, and so they attacked me also. Dr. Patel: No, we have seen the League of Nations was even better than the United Nations. They are all really fighting among themselves very badly. *Prabhupāda: Now how they cannot fight? They are swines and dogs. How they will remain peaceful? It is not possible. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. Unless they are spiritually elevated they cannot be peaceful. It is impossible. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Simply by stamping. Dr. Patel: And there is another class of... Prabhupāda: Gandhi became mahātmā, but his mission was, "Get out, Englishmen, get out." Where is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu? He declared himself mahātmā, but his business was how to drive away the Englishmen. Dr. Patel: Sir, he, I mean, I'm sorry to interrupt you. He never hated Englishmen. It's their method he wanted to drive out. Prabhupāda: I do not hate you, but I beat you with shoes. (laughter) Dr. Patel: No, you don't beat me with shoes. He never beat them the shoes. He said, "Well we don't like you." If I say, "Do this," and it is not good, I mean, I'm not wrong in that way I suppose. I'm open to correction. Prabhupāda: No, no. English civilization is not good. What was the wrong? I say repeatedly again and again, he ruined the Manchester cloth business, he developed Ahmedabad cloth. The result is we poor men, we were paying one rupee six annas per pair, now we are paying thirty rupees. Money is going... Instead of going to the pocket of the Englishmen it is going to the pocket of Mahadevia. (laughter) Dr. Patel: English people, they, I mean, ruined their whole industry of... Bengal textile industry was ruined by Britishers. They cut away the thumbs. That is... I'm sorry, sir... Prabhupāda: Therefore why mahātmā? The same business you are doing, why you say mahātmā? If you are doing the same business... Dr. Patel: He never called himself mahātmā. People called him mahātmā. Prabhupāda: He liked to enjoy it. He liked to enjoy it. That's all. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. Mahātmā has no business to this... [break] ...fact, the present position of India, it is not very good. But we can do that. We have got the means. If we make propaganda village to village. Still, the villagers, they are unpolluted, they can be recovered. Still, when we hold meeting of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, thousands of men come. And that, our Hyderabad land is very suitable for this purpose. Devotee: The thing is, Prabhupāda, in India they know that materialism is wrong because they've been educated. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But they are being educated that materialism is good, and this so*-called spiritual... They do not recognize the spiritual movement. Our government do not recognize any spiritual movement. Dr. Patel: They interpret secularism as no religion. Rather equal truth to all religions is the real meaning of secularism. The Government tries... [break] Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...world will be benefited. Still people observe India. Guest (1): If it is told by (indistinct) who accept it. *Prabhupāda: No, why these boys are attracted ? They have not come here to see your industry for materialism. They have come here for spiritual. They have not come to see your cycle and sewing machine. Actually, they have come, Vṛndāvana, Māyāpura. And they are not poverty stricken. We go to Europe being poverty stricken. That Lady Wellington, he (she) challenged one of my Godbrothers, Bhakti Tīrtha Mahārāja, that "You Indian people..." She was very proud, Lady Wellington. Wellington was Iceland. She said that "You Indian people..." Of course, it was friendly talk. "You come to our country, we give you some stamp, degree, and you earn your livelihood in India. What you have come here to teach?" This was the challenge. Actually, that was happening. We were sending our men to England to become bar*-at-law, to become MS, CP, to become this and that, and they became here big men. So why you people come here to teach us? This was the challenge. In those days a little favor of Englishman was considered a great boon. In Bengal there is a word, saheb śubha. Saheb means European, especially Englishman, and śubha means "auspicious." So if anyone can make friendship with a European, then his life is successful. And that was happening. The Englishmen were opening business houses. If somebody became connected, he gets good business. He becomes a rich man. There is a family in Calcutta, Saubhaga (?) Raj family. So the head of that family, Navinchandra Dev, he was a minor clerk of Lord Clive's. So when Lord Clyde was in Delhi, he was young man, he was sitting on that peacock throne and slept. Young man. So Lord Clyde saw, "Oh, what is this young man?" So the Englishman, then he came to Calcutta. So "You are fortunate, all right I'll make you a king." Britishers they were giving title, king. So he was given the title Raja. So the whole family is Saubhaga (?) Raj family still. This was the Raj. He was a clerk. Why people will not say saheb śubha? He became favorite to Lord Clive, and his whole family became Raj family. Still that family is there, those who are known to Calcutta. One of the oldest aristocratic... So all these aristocratic families, they were made by these Britishers. Except the Tagore family. They were from the Mohammedan time. The people became attached to the Europeans. Saheb śubha. If you meet one Englishman then your fortune is... I think Bombay was there also. Guest (1): There are many families among those even today. *Prabhupāda: There are many Parsi families. But they wanted some friends. They were minority. Unless with the cooperation of the Indians, how they could stand? Therefore they introduced the zamindar system in Bengal, Bihar, Orissa. Some aristocratic families should cooperate with them. They knew how to rule over. Now by over*-cooperating they have become hoax. That verse I very much like. Devotee: They accuse them of brainwashing. But actually... *Prabhupāda: They cannot believe that other than this method, there can be civilization. This hoggish civilization is real civilization. To become like hog. That is real civilization. And to give up this process, thinking of soul, elevation of the soul, going back to Godhead, simply imagination, brainwashing. How they can understand? Mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu*-saṁsāra vartmani [Bg. 9.3]. Who can understand this? (Hindi) to return (Hindi) to the cycle of birth and death. You believe that. (Hindi) If you do not in this life achieve the sense of spiritual consciousness then you'll have to go back to the cycle of birth and death. Who will understand this philosophy? Mostly they do not know what is the cycle of birth and death, and what to speak of understanding God. This is the position. This is sewer position. A sewer cannot understand. The men have become like that. In the name of so-called civilization. Can a sewer understand this philosophy? A man cannot understand. And what is the difference between him and the sewer? Sewer (Hindi) There is a narration, Brahmā came, and Indra became, by the curse of Bṛhaspati, became a sewer. So he was living in the forest as sewer. Brahmājī came, "All right, your punishment is now over. You come." "Where shall I go?" "The heaven?" "This is heaven." "You have got your kingdom, heaven. You have come to suffer this life." "No no, I cannot go." "Why?" "Now who will take responsibility for my, this sewer?" (laughter) Dr. Patel: I like this tale. *Prabhupāda: Then Brahmā began to kill his sewerni (?) and his pigs and others, and then he began to cry and took him by force. There is a (indistinct). Even Indra, when he comes under the influence of this tamo*-guṇa, he became happy in the high life of sewer. Dr. Patel: Māyā duratyayā. Mama māyā duratyayā. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te [Bg. 7.14]. Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Śrutaśrava: The governor there, he was making a statement that most institutions in California like hospitals and places like this, they are simply torture chambers. So he made one request that people like priests and monks and Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, if they could go to these places and try to help people. Prabhupāda: We are prepared. If they give us in charge, we are prepared. Śrutaśrava: So in Christmas day Rāmeśvara Mahārāja was planning that many devotees could go there and distribute prasāda and some literatures. Prabhupāda: We can cure them from material and spiritual diseases. They are now trying to cure them from material ailments. We can cure them from spiritual ailments. Actually, the ailment is spiritual. Material is symptom. (end) *Room Conversation-*-December 29, 1976, Bombay Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is the author of all these books that you see. These books are being translated in every major language of the world. Guest (1) (Indian man): How many books in number? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Eighty*-four books of about 400 pages each. Guest (2) (Indian man): How many in vernacular languages printing? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About 21 different languages they have been translated. Guest (2): In India? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, international. French, Italian... Guest (2): In India? Indian languages. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati, Tamil, Oriya, Bengali, Gujarati. Every major Indian language. Guest (1): Can you tell us the different subjects covered by the...? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's Vedic subjects, the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. *Prabhupāda: We are stressing especially on Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Guest (3) (Indian man): Do you have special on each chapter of *Gītā*? *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Each word. You can show Bhagavad*-gītā. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A very authoritative presentation. For example, here's the original Sanskrit śloka, word for word... *Guest (3): For example, sāṅkhya*-yoga. You have a separate book? Then sthita-prajñā. You have a separate...? *Prabhupāda: No separately. It is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Guest (3): But that way, your volumes are dealing with each chapter of *Gītā*? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Each śloka. Each chapter. Guest (2): No, no. Not inside the book. Different volumes. Like eighteen chapters, but eighteen volumes. Prabhupāda: No, no. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. It's in one book. Twelve hundred pages. Guest (3): And the interpretation is by you yourself? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not interpretation. I am explaining as it is. You can read one. Guest (3): Have you tried to compare with *Gītā* written by Gyaneshvara, or by Vinoba Bhave or by somebody else? *Prabhupāda: According to Bhagavad*-gītā, if you don't follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, you may be very learned scholar, whatever you write, it is lost. We follow that principle. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Find out this Fourth Chapter. Guest (2): Have these books been reviewed in foreign papers? Prabhupāda: It is very widely read. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For example, in the Fourth Chapter Lord Kṛṣṇa says, *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that this Bhagavad*-gītā has to be received by the disciplic succession. And sa kālena yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. Because that disciplic succession is now broken, that yoga system is now lost. So all these interpreters, they are interpreting in their own way. Therefore it is lost. So there is no use of consulting this lost version. Guest (3): So you just give it as it is. *Prabhupāda: That is... Therefore my Bhagavad*-gītā is named Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. No interpretation. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Each word is the original Sanskrit śloka, English transliteration, word by word meaning, so there's no room for manipulation. There's a translation and purport. Every book that Śrīla Prabhupāda has written has the same format and each book is illustrated. Guest (3): Do you believe that the *Gītā* should be followed as it is or interpretation... *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. If you read somebody's book, you must read the author's version. Why should you bring interpretation? This is... You have no business. If you want to say something of your philosophy, you can say, but why do you take Bhagavad*-gītā and give your own interpretation? That is very bad. Guest (3): But can you not apply your own philos... *Prabhupāda: Why? Why should you? If you take Bhagavad*-gītā, you should speak what Bhagavad-gītā is saying. And interpretation is required when the thing is not understood clearly. There you get interpretation. Unnecessarily, why should you interpret Bhagavad-gītā? You have no right. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. So anyone can understand there is a place Kurukṣetra still. Why should you interpret, "Kurukṣetra means this body and this and that," why? What is the necessity? Do you think there is necessity? Guest (3): But just as... *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all let us settle, that Bhagavad*-gītā begins Guest (2): Most Hindus, they are not properly able to understand Kṛṣṇa direct. Prabhupāda: No, I have already explained, that when you cannot understand, then you interpret. But when it is clearly understood why should you interpret? Guest (2): How you explain the act of Kṛṣṇa taking away the saris of the gopīs? *Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand Bhagavad*-gītā. Then go to the sari of gopī. You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa and you are going to His gopīs. This is another malinterpretation. You are studying Bhagavad-gītā, talk of that. In the Bhagavad-gītā the gopīs' saris are not mentioned. So why you are bringing gopīs' saris now? This is our fault. Guest (2): Normally, you know our people... *Prabhupāda: No, no. This is our fault There is no mention of gopīs' saris. We are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā, why you are bringing gopīs' saris? Guest (2): Because that... *Prabhupāda: Again because. There is no subject matter there. You have no right to bring that. That is our fault. To bring a horse before a cart. We are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā. There is no mention of Kṛṣṇa and gopīs' saris there. So let us talk. Finish that. Guest (3): So you clearly said that interpretation is wrong. Prabhupāda: Interpretation means lost. Guest (3): No, no. You clearly said that interpretation is wrong. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): What has been done all these years? Prabhupāda: If they have done all these years wrong, that does it not right. If all of them have done wrong, then combined together it does not become right. Guest (3): Will you repeat your... Prabhupāda: I mean to say if everyone has done wrong, then combined together will it become right? Hundreds of zeroes will make one? It will remain zero. It will not be effective. Kṛṣṇa says sa kālena yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. And what is the next line? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. Prabhupāda: Then? Next line? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya [Bg. 4.3]. *Prabhupāda: Sa eva ayam yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. "Therefore I am saying you again, the old yoga system. It is not that because the time has changed, I am changing." Somebody says, "Now it was spoken some millions of years ago, now it is modern ways, I am explaining in the modern way." That is not the system. The system is I am speaking the same yoga system. Yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. And they are modernizing, making compromise. That is naṣṭa. That is the defect. Therefore we did not get any benefit. And in the modern countries, before me, so many yogis, swamis have been there for the last two hundred years. Not a single person became a Hindu. Now they are calling (them) "American Hindus." Why? Because it was lost. Rotten thing was given. Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. If you supply something to me which is rotten and decomposed, such foodstuff, what shall I get benefit? Now they are getting benefit. Our mission is to put Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission that He said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Everyone of you become a guru and deliver these persons, these fallen conditioned souls. That is your business. Now you can say, or I can say that how can I become guru? I have no education, I have no talent. How can I become guru? The answer is yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said, you become guru. So we are doing like that. We haven't got to manufacture. We haven't got to take so much trouble or create it by our fertile brain. We are simply repeating what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. And see how it is effective. Guest (1): Do you mean it that a man who is under so much tension can... *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, try to see the distinction. Before me, so many people went. They misinterpreted Bhagavad*-gītā, there was no effect. And we are not misinterpreting. We are simply presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is given. That is the point. Everyone says, "Swamiji, you have done wonderful thing." But I say , "I do not know any magic, jugglery. But wonderful thing is that I have not adulterated." That is wonderful. Otherwise, nothing wonderful. What I am saying? Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. I am creating them bhaktas, that's all. I am starting these temples and ask them that "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. You become devotee, you always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. And they are giving up everything. Their father and mother, they are thinking, "They are our lost child." They are now giving the opposition. They have brought so many cases against me. But unless it is effective, how they are feeling the weight? Now these boys, their father, mother constantly kidnap them. "Stay here." No, they will not stay. They'll not eat with their father, mother. So they think that "Our son is lost." Other yogis and swamis go, they give some method. And the son is there at home."All right, a young man is going there." But here, their son is lost. Here their son is lost, and they are now called "American Hindus." So naturally they are very much against me. And counter movement is going on. Hindus... The government...That this is not a religion. The swami knows some mind-controlling power and he's brainwashing. In this way, there is charge. So because America has got freedom of religion, so if they accept my movement as Hindu religion, they cannot do anything. People are free to accept. But they are giving in a different charge, that I have manufactured something, that no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling. How people can accept all these things? They're brainwashed. There are so many charges. But anyone who comes to me, I don't make any compromise. Yes... (end) *Morning Walk-*-December 30, 1976, Bombay Girirāja: ...cannot accept anything artificial but Mr. Vijaya cannot keep up to that standard. Prabhupāda: Vinoba Bhave is also not cent percent. Girirāja: Oh, I know. But by chance, on this particular point... *Prabhupāda: He has written books, Bhagavad*-gītā Pravacana. In his bhāṣya there is no kṛṣṇa-bhakti. So what is this Bhagavad-gītā Pravacana. Why he has avoided kṛṣṇa-bhakti? What is the reason? Girirāja: He's envious. *Prabhupāda: Gandhi has... He's envious. The same thing. Bhagavad*-gītā, he is writing essays on Bhagavad-gītā but the main principle of Bhagavad-gītā, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. What is that? Girirāja: Mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo 'si me. Prabhupāda: So where is that? Girirāja: They don't follow. *Prabhupāda: This is their defect. Therefore they are failures. Must be failure. They do not take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. They mix with their false ideas. And therefore spoil, adulterate. And bhagavad-bhakti is without adulteration. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Pure. No adulteration. That is bhakti. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. That is not nirmalam. Sa mala it is. With mala. With mala. Mala. It cannot be. Proportionately. So where she has sent this article? Girirāja: In some of the newspapers in Vaidore, maybe Nagpur. He's writing for about three or five copies of those original clippings. Prabhupāda: He has written very nicely. Good writer. Picked up the essence of the movement. That was published. (Hindi) So distribute them. (Hindi) Bhāgavata Darśana? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Next issue. This issue is all finished. Next one. Prabhupāda: Just stop this light. Girirāja: Then it won't be for Kumbhamela. Prabhupāda wanted it for Kumbhamela. [break] Indian: Well, I don't know. It will be a big program there from part of (indistinct) mission. They've spent four lakhs rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They never... I never thought they had so much money even for their own projects. Indian men: They collect from the big Sikhs. (indistinct) He is very influenced. For Kumbhamela, all the Marwari want to wash off all the sins they did. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: So explain with that purpose. At least, they are sensible. [break] You cannot give up these four things: yajña, dāna, tapasya. So yajña for the brahmacārīs, begin yajña. And dāna for the gṛhasthas, and tapasya for the sannyāsīs. Yajña*-dāna-tapaḥ-karma na tyājyam, Kṛṣṇa says. Do not give up this. "I have become sannyāsī, therefore I'll give up my tapasya also." Sannyāsī means the life of tapasya. If you give up tapasya also then what remains? How you become a sannyāsa? Yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-karma na tyājyaṁ kāryam eva tat. It must be continued. And again He stresses yajño dānaṁ tapaś caiva pāvanāni manīṣiṇām. Even if you think that you have become very great, "Now I'm very exalted personality. I don't require. I have become paramahaṁsa," No, no, no, no. This yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-karma, even if you are very exalted, still, it will purify you more, these things. Yajño dānaṁ tapaś caiva pāvanāni manīṣiṇām. In any condition of life these things cannot be given up. So those who are in sense, gṛhasthas, they must give in charity, at least fifty percent of their income. That was shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He, fifty percent. Dānam means not to the daridra-nārāyaṇa. Dānam means to the brāhmaṇa, Vaiṣṇava. In our śāstra charity is recommended to be given to the high-class men, brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas. They know how to spend money. Therefore dātavyam iti yad dānaṁ tad dānaṁ sāttvikam ucyate. Just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are appreciating. So all the charity should come here. Then it is properly utilized. Because we do not use a single paisa for anything of sense gratification. We do not even smoke, we do not take tea, we lie down on the floor. Not a single paisa is spent for our sense gratification. Everything is utilized for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore all charity should come here. Properly spent. But if we misspend, that is our fault. Single paisa we spend for our sense gratification, that is fault of us. And people should give at least fifty percent of their income to this movement. Twenty-five percent to the family and twenty-five percent let him keep for himself in case of emergency. This is the example shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. So there was emergency. Everything they showed practically. Sanātana Gosvāmī was arrested. Whatever money they kept for themselves, was given as bribe to the jail superintendent and got out of jail. This is example given by Gosvāmī, that fifty percent was given to the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, fifty percent they deposited with the local... Formerly the bāniyās were bankers, village bankers. Whatever one has got, extra money, they should deposit, and the bāniyās will give him some interest and utilize the money. He will not usurp the money. People believe, just like bank, everywhere, crores of rupees they are collecting daily because people know, "As soon as I shall want the money, it will be paid." So bāniyās were very honest. By others money, they would prosper, and the money is ready. Because they were doing with commodities, even he has no cash money he can immediately sell something and pay. That was the credit. That was the credit. Then people believed them. The village bankers were these grocers, especially the gold merchants. Therefore the gold merchants were bankers and dealers in gold. Suvarṇa-vaṇik. They had position. They have got stock of ornaments, gold ornaments, silver utensils. So you can believe in him, that by putting in his custody one hundred, one thousand rupees he can deliver. At any moment. The bankers. And Rūpa Gosvāmī did it practically. Some money for emergency, some money... Relatives they also expect. That is allowed. So they should be given something. Not that cent percent. At least 25% to the relatives and 25% for personal. And 50% for Kṛṣṇa. This is the system. So this is called dānam. Kṛṣṇa also says kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam. "If you want to give in charity, give it to Me." Kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam. Dadāsi yat. "If you have got some capacity to give something, give it to Me." He never said to daridra-nārāyaṇa. I do not know how they manufactured these things. Kṛṣṇa says, "Give it to Me." He's not daridra. He's Nārāyaṇa, but He's not daridra. The principle is to give to the richest Nārāyaṇa, not daridra-nārāyaṇa. But these rascals misinterpret that daridra has become Nārāyaṇa. How daridra can become Nārāyaṇa? This is going on. And therefore there is no effect. There is no effect. See from practical what Vivekananda has done? But they have made propaganda, false propaganda, they have got roads. In a city like Bombay, big road, Vivekananda. But they do not care what Vivekananda has done. Devotee: Even they got road, in the road so many nonsense going on. Prabhupāda: That every road is there. We have no such thing. (Hindi) But he's not recognized in... Wherefrom he has got the advertisement that in America he has done tremendous work. What they have done? Girirāja: The government may like to popularize him because he preached the cult of "work hard." Prabhupāda: What "work hard" he has... (indistinct) Devotee: Other day one man was telling me they bought two of your Bhāgavatams, Ramakrishna Mission. He said that one Ranganath Swami from South India, from Hyderabad was lecturing there but he was... When he was lecturing he had your *Bhāgavatam*, First Canto, Part One in his hand and he was speaking from there. (laughter) I said it is very good. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Give him prasāda. (Hindi) Devotee: Many ācāryas, they imitate you. They read your books and take some of this part and what is useful for them they use on their lecture. How we should stop them? [break] Hari-śauri: At least part of the lecture's going to be all right. Prabhupāda: They cannot utilize my writing in their favor. Devotee: No, some of the thing they take for their favor. They glory their own. They read your books and they glorify their own. Prabhupāda: No that is... Devotee: So we should stop them like that. Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't stop. They cannot do it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It means that Prabhupāda has influenced them to say what Prabhupāda has written. Prabhupāda: Ranganath was speaking from my book? Devotee: Yes, he was quoting that śloka, I remember from First Canto, Part One. That one our life members... They were all the... All the big people, they goes there. So he told me when he came, he took a *Bhāgavatam*. He said that today Ranganath had your book. I said that they had bought two books from me. He opened that like this. Then he saw the cover of our book so he was quoting śloka from that and he was reading the purport and giving speech on that, because there is no such edition in English on *Bhāgavatam* except yours. So that I was very much pleased actually when I heard that. Prabhupāda: In the beginning also they purchased. When I published three copies in Delhi they purchased because such translation is not there. So, that is all. Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Press Interview-*-December 31, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the mercy incarnation for all people. How we can question upon this idea? Indian man: So you are elaborating on this thing. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Ignorance. Stated in Bhagavad*-gītā, mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti. You take Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvaiḥ. Oh, that is given to that doctor. (Hindi) But that knowledge is being neglected by Indians, and the whole world is in ignorance. The knowledge has to be given by India because knowledge is in India. But the Indians, they have become rascals. They are imitating the rascals. This is reply. India should have given knowledge to the whole world. Instead of, these rascals are imitating their ways of life, and knowledge remains in the darkness throughout the whole world. Indian man: What do you find, you know, that when you impart this knowledge to Western disciples and when you talk to someone who are in India, what difference do you find? Prabhupāda: Indian men refuse this culture. India's leader, beginning from Gandhi and all, they do not know what is India's culture. They have forgotten. Indian man: Would you like to include Gandhi also in that? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Otherwise, how it can be? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Indian man: But he was the one who also preached *Gītā*. Prabhupāda: But he did not know *Gītā*. Actually. Recently I have been in his āśrama. They are maintaining the chattai (?) and the lantern in memory. What is that? If Mahatma Gandhi understood *Gītā*, he should have introduced that āśrama in *Gītā*. Where is that? The chattai (?) food arrangement is there. Indian man: So that is done by his disciples and not by him. He never... Prabhupāda: That means he could not make his disciple correctly. Indian man: That is true. That is true. Prabhupāda: Therefore he did not know. Now see how my disciples are working all over the world within ten years. I am sitting here, still going on, my business. So you have to train in such a way. The Deity worship is going on. Bring that recent Denver pictures. They are now opening different branches, establishing Deity exactly in the way I have trained. It is a question of training. Indian man: How your preaching differs from various ācāryas? Say, Śaṅkara or Vallabha or Rāmānuja? Prabhupāda: Just in the line of the ācāryas. Indian man: But you are just in the line or you... Prabhupāda: Yes. All the ācāryas established hundreds and thousands of temples. So I am establishing all over the world. What did in India I am doing all over the world. Now just see how they are... Indian man: Each ācārya differed in interpretation of religion and approach to it. You diff... Śaṅkara and Vallabha say... *Prabhupāda: There are two sections, the impersonalist and the personalist. The personalists are the Vaiṣṇavas, and the impersonalists are the Māyāvādīs. So far the spiritual life is concerned, there is no difference. There is no difference. Just like Śaṅkara. Śaṅkarācārya said that brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. The spiritual life is reality. And this is nonreality. But we say that this is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. Kṛṣṇa said. We are follower of Kṛṣṇa. "This is a place of suffering. And if you come to Me then your suffering ends." So this world is condemned either by Śaṅkarācārya, or others, everyone. But the modern rascals, they have taken this world as everything. Therefore they are in ignorance. Do you follow? They have taken this world, this life of fifty years or sixty years, at most hundred years, as reality. These rascals have no knowledge that we have life after annihilation of this body. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Who knows it? Bring big, big men, big, big politician. Indian man: What about so many saints who are preaching yoga and religion all over the world? *Prabhupāda: Anyone who does not know the science, they are not saint. They are cheaters. If they do not know the science, what is spiritual life, what is material life. So their speaking is simply cheating. Therefore we should state the standard, Bhagavad*-gītā, the ācāryas. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said ācāryopāsanam. Take the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, even Śaṅkarācārya. So there must be standard. It is... Some of them are manufacturing some spiritual life. Just like Vivekananda did, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. Is there any such word in our Vedic śāstras? Daridra-nārāyaṇa? Nārāyaṇa has become daridra? One has to worship daridra-nārāyaṇa. Indian man: You don't agree with what has been preached... *Prabhupāda: Why shall I agree? Because there is no such thing in the śāstra. Is there word, any word, in the whole Bhagavad*-gītā, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā? Indian man: No, but what Ramakrishna Paramahaṁsa... *Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna, how he become paramahaṁsa if he does not know the śāstra? That is the difficulty. Everyone becoming self*-made guru, self-made avatāra, self-made saint. That is the difficulty. Without any reference to the authentic śāstra. Indian man: So it's a very revealing thing, you deny Ramakrishna Paramahaṁsa... Prabhupāda: I don't deny. You accept, you accept. My point is unless it is authoritatively mentioned in the śāstra, we reject. Indian man: But śāstras were written thousands of years ago. Life might have changed. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. In the śāstras it is not said that after passing of many years the śāstra becomes obsolete. This is another ignorance. Śāstra is not like that. You write some mental speculation and after some years it changes. That is not śāstra. Śāstra is this... Just like the Bhāgavata was, five thousand years ago it was it was written... And the symptoms of Kali, Kali*-yuga is written there in the Twelfth Canto. Indian man: The complete purport was written five thousand years back. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: But most of the scholars, they say... *Prabhupāda: He is not a scholar. He's a rascal. We have to follow the ācāryas. The ācāryas never said. There are so many ācāryas. They never say. So, we have to follow, ācāryopāsanam, not the rascals. We cannot worship the rascals. Worship ācāryas. They are guide. So śāstra says... Find out sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. Purātanaḥ, Kṛṣṇa says that imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1], "I spoke this science to Vivasvān, the sun*-god." So if you calculate sun, this sun, Vivasvān, is the father of Manu, Vaivasvata Manu. And if you take, calculate, it becomes forty millions of years. So this Bhagavad-gītā is spoken, according to the Bhagavad-gītā, according to the version of Kṛṣṇa, forty millions of years ago. Now He says that science was known to the people by paramparā. And that paramparā is lost somehow or other. Therefore as... [break] Suppose you are born in Bombay, but you do not know how the state is being managed, then what is my jñāna? If you do not know how the state is being managed then what is your jñāna? That jñāna is, dogs and cats, they have also jñāna. How to eat, how to sleep, how to use sex life, how to defend. This is not jñāna. Everyone knows it. If you know God, who is conducting the whole, that is jñāna. So if you do not know who is the supreme controller... Indian man: Knowing God through śāstras is one thing, but can a realization come in life as Arjuna had? Prabhupāda: No. *Indian man: As Arjuna had the viśvarūpa*-darśana. Prabhupāda: No, that is not... Arjuna said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. For that jñāna you have to become śiṣya to the ācārya or it is useless. *Indian man: But then you can get the realization, what Arjuna got, viśvarūpa*-darśana. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything. If you go, tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā upadekṣyanti tad jñānam [Bg. 4.34]. This is this process. Indian man: If it is not too much a personal question, have you had a saksaska?(?) Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, why I am talking? Indian man: But what was your experience of that saksaska? *Prabhupāda: Now how you will understand unless you come to the science? [break] Gandhi manufactured. The Bhagavad*-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and he wanted to draw the conclusion of nonviolence. What is this? Kṛṣṇa says kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame... "In this battlefield you are talking of nonsense, that 'I'll not fight.' " He says so and Gandhi wanted to make it nonviolent. Just see how from the very beginning he distorted. And people accept it. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. He was a śreṣṭha, leader. So whatever he will say people will accept. The whole India became spoiled. Indian man: But the way to saksaska (?) is only... Prabhupāda: Saksaska is... Kṛṣṇa is speaking, "Here I am." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. Now why not saksaska? You can have. Unless you believe... You do not believe it. Indian man: It is a...? It is a belief or is it...? Prabhupāda: Rather, if somebody says, "I am your father." So if you don't believe then how it can be believed? Indian man: But there is somebody, some concrete person, telling me that "I am your father," but... Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody knows who is his father. Indian man: I want to understand, Guruji, that the saksaska, is it a sort of emotional belief or it is a concrete... Prabhupāda: No emotional. It is fact. Concrete. Indian man: Concrete reality. Prabhupāda: Yes. If your mother says, "Here is your father," that's all right. You don't require any other. And that is paramparā. Mother knows how you were created by your father. So she is the ultimate evidence. That's all. You cannot speculate. If you disbelieve your mother, then there is no question of understanding your father. Indian man: We all have at certain moments of devotion some sort of feelings when we feel we are very much near the God. But that concrete reality, to attain that, the only way is jñāna, upāsanā. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is jñāna. But the jñāna must be received through the right source. Jñāna is not speculation. The modern rascals, they create jñāna by speculation. That is not jñāna. That is ajñāna. The same example. If you don't receive jñāna from your mother, there is no jñāna of father. If you millions of years go on speculating who is your father he'll never be revealed. That is not jñāna. That is ajñāna. So these rascals, they are creating jñāna. That is not jñāna. Jñāna means you should receive jñāna through the right source. Indian man: And what is the upāsanā you will be prescribing for those people who want to achieve jñāna? *Prabhupāda: Yes, upāsanā. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam [Bg. 13.8]. Vinigrahaḥ, indriya-vinigrahaḥ. Find out this, Thirteenth Chapter. These are the process. First of all amānitvam. You have to surrender yourself that "I am insignificant." But in beginning you are puffed up. "I am so academic. Now I have got Ph.D." Rascals. First, beginning is amānitvam. And as soon as we become puffed-up, a little knowledge... A Little knowledge is dangerous. Then finished. So they are doing like that. A little knowledge, I think, "I have become more than my Guru Mahārāja." Finished. That is the defect. Find out. Read the... Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Everyone is after sense gratification. No vairāgya. And he's in knowledge. His qualification is like dog and he has become a man of knowledge. [break] Indian man: To go to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Finish this. *Pradyumna: Asaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ putra*-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Asaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ putra*-dāra-gṛha. Everyone is attached. And this is ignorance. This is illusion. That developed society, community, nationality. But what is that? That attachment. But that attachment has to be taken away. That is knowledge. But we are teaching people how to become more and more attached in the name of Communism, Socialism, this ism, that ism, nationalism. These things are not given. The truth in all this means increasing putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. Not asakti but āsakti. Increasing ignorance. Then? *Pradyumna: Nityaṁ ca sama*-cittatvam iṣṭāniṣṭopapattiṣu. *Prabhupāda: Nityaṁ ca sama*-cittatvam. We should not be disturbed by this worldly disturbance. Tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Real business is how to stop this birth, death, old age and disease. But they are not concerned with these things. They are simply disturbed with little temporary discomfort. Then? *Pradyumna: Mayi cānanya*-yogena... *Prabhupāda: Mayi cānanya*-yogena bhaktir... Pradyumna: Avyabhicāriṇī. Prabhupāda: Ah. Central point is to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Then? *Pradyumna: Vivikta*-deśa-sevitvam aratir jana-saṁsadi [Bg. 13.11]. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Not to mix with this rascal class of men. Aratir jana*-saṁsadi. Not that I hold a meeting and some rascals give me clapping, (claps hands) I become... Don't be after this. Try to understand the reality. But we, we become political leader, and if one thousand or one lakh of people give me a few claps I think I become perfect. What you are perfect? The next moment by the laws of nature you'll be slapped and taken away. Who could save Gandhi when he was fired by the laws by the nature? That clapping would not save me. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. When Kṛṣṇa will come and put you death, what you will do? With you clapping and your bank balance. You'll be taken away. Then? *Pradyumna: Adhyātma*-jñāna-nityatvaṁ tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. *Prabhupāda: Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Tattva-jñāna. What is tattva? These things are absent completely from the whole world. But everything is there. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. If people take it they'll be benefited. This simple mission. We are following Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said that you become guru. Everyone become guru. So how shall I become guru? Very simple thing. Indian man: What does, as you were telling about Gandhi and Aurobindo or Tilak or Gyaneshwar. What... *Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are asking? You study then whether they have spoken something else or Bhagavad*-gītā. It is your business. Why you are asking me? But we say anyone who says against Bhagavad-gītā, he's a rascal. *Indian man: No, but they have said something in favor of Bhagavad*-gītā. *Prabhupāda: But I don't see that they have made one single Kṛṣṇa bhakta, neither they were Kṛṣṇa bhakta. What kind of Bhagavad*-gītā they have read I do not know. I see by the result. The last word of Bhagavad-gītā is man-manā bhava mad-bhakto... Mām eva... Sarva-dharmān. That is study of Bhagavad-gītā. They do not speak of Kṛṣṇa anywhere, that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, you become a devotee." Now how he has read Bhagavad-gītā? I shall take it? Simply make jugglery of words? We have to see the result. They have neither made one Kṛṣṇa bhakta, neither they were Kṛṣṇa bhakta. How he has read Bhagavad-gītā? Tell me. This is the test. They... Whole country is after Gandhi or Aurobindo or big, big. But who is Kṛṣṇa bhakta under their direction? Now we are simply following Caitanya Mahāprabhu, yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Just see. Thousands are become Kṛṣṇa bhakta. See by practical. Indian man: Simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Whatever Kṛṣṇa has said we are speaking. That's all. We have no botheration. We haven't got to manufacture ideas. And that is being effective. See practically. Similarly, if you do that the whole world will be student of Bhagavad*-gītā. And if you manufacture your nonsense idea it is useless. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. Bas. Naṣṭa. So it is naṣṭa, hogya [finished]. If it is lost, if it is decomposed, then what will be the benefit? Suppose if I supply you some nice foodstuff but it is rotten, naṣṭa, then what benefit you'll get? If I give you some fresh prepared nice foodstuff, you'll get some benefit out of it. But if I give you rotten thing in the name of foodstuff, then what benefit you'll get? So Kṛṣṇa says as soon as you break this paramparā system it is rotten. So, by jugglery of our words, if you present rotten things, what benefit they will get? Indian man: What is your message for Indian people? *Prabhupāda: That people take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. You'll be benefited, the whole world will be benefited. Our thing is simple. It is stated there, yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You learn first of all Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and you preach. They are hankering after. Indian man: What do you think of miracle saints? The saints who perform miracles? *Prabhupāda: Miracles? Why do you want miracles? What miracle? Can you save a man from death? Can you show this miracle? This miracle means cheating. The real problem is janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. Indian man: No but can a saint... Prabhupāda: Why you are after miracles? Indian man: No, but one thing. Is it possible for a saint at certain stage of sādhana to perform miracles? *Prabhupāda: That is cheating. Here, in the Bhagavad*-gītā, you don't find anywhere that you show miracles. He says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. He never says that you show miracles. These are all rascals. You become His bhakta. That is the greatest miracle. And he guarantees, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaṁ. That is miracle. What is this miracle, cheating other people by showing some magic or jugglery of words. These are miracles? That is cheating. Indian man: But to a layman what would you preach? Prabhupāda: Layman, if he does not go to the right man he'll suffer. What can be done? Indian man: But where should it begin? Prabhupāda: Begin when one who is Kṛṣṇa bhakta. Begin there. Indian man: For spreading this movement in India, are you hopeful it will be? Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are sincere. Those who are after jugglery, magic... Indian man: They will not come. Prabhupāda: They will be cheated. Indian doctor: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the medical we are preparing (indistinct). Prabhupāda: So now it is late. So you stay, take prasāda. Indian doctor: No, I'm... I am here only for three, four times a year. And get everything done. I'll give instruction in writing, they will write it down and I'll be there till evening or five tomorrow and go out for the preparation. These are to be taken with the the bath. Prabhupāda: All right. Do it. For the time being, what I took yesterday, my lunch, I'll take. And these things we can begin from tomorrow because it is already arranged. Indian doctor: No, pills can be taken. [break] Indian man: It is there in śāstras. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And if you don't care for the śāstras, if you manufacture your own way, then, as it is stated, na siddhiṁ sāvāpnoti. You'll never be successful. Na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim. Neither happiness nor better life will be next or the supreme goal. These things finished. Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ [Bg. 16.23]. If you do not take the guidance of the śāstra then all your hope is finished. You can hope, but you'll never... This is our... Therefore we follow the śāstras and we teach others to follow śāstras. If you like you can do. Otherwise do whatever you like. But you don't manufacture and spoil my life and others. You don't do. Indian man: There was some trouble with your movement in America recently. Prabhupāda: We don't care for this trouble. If you are sincere it is all right. We are facing so many difficulties. We don't care for it. We never compromise. All my students, they will never compromise. Why shall I compromise? If I am confident that I am speaking the truth, why shall I make compromise? Those who are not confident of his position, they will make compromise. One who does not know where he stands, he will make compromise. And if I know where I am standing, why shall I make compromise? Let others do whatever he likes. This is our position. Indian man: Do not strain guru too much. Devotees: Thank you very much. (offer obeisances) [break] *Prabhupāda: Most important movement. (Hindi) You are in a good position. Try to convince others. Life should be for para*-upakāra. Not exploiting. This is India's mission. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, Indian man: Something permanent. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jaya. (end) *Room Conversation-*-December 31, 1976, Bombay *Prabhupāda: ...so glorious. Glorious. He's glorious. That's all right. But kaniṣṭha*-adhikārī will imitate his behavior, but he is not fixed up. Therefore it is not good for him. He is forbidden. This is... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's forbidden to hear from a nondevotee. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They will commit so many mistakes and they'll take it for granted. Just like this "Nitāi*-Gaura, Rādhe-Śyāma." That is avoided for kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. There are so many mistakes, rasābhāsa. So two things are there always, two sides. One for the mahā-bhāgavata, one for the ordinary kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī. So in the temple it is to be supposed generally for the madhyama-adhikārī and kaniṣṭha-adhikārī especially. So in the temple we should not... Hari-śauri: We should just listen to whatever the ācāryas have... Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: I remember once before, a few years ago, you sent a letter out saying that no one should try to compose songs or... *Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not encourage. What they will compose? They have no realization. But they're speaking something about Kṛṣṇa. That's his beginning. Just like a child, he speaks half*-broken. That is not language. It has no meaning. But still the child, "Ah, ah, you are so nice. You are so nice." Because he's trying to speak something. "Papa, mama." And mama is... Not that his words are complete. Hari-śauri: When we go out and preach and we just repeat or try to repeat whatever we've heard from the spiritual master, but we may not have fully realized what we're speaking about, does that somehow or another reduce the potency of the Gītā or the Bhāgavatam or... *Prabhupāda: Yes, realization takes time. Therefore there is no question of realization. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says you simply repeat as Kṛṣṇa says. That will save you. The so*-called political leaders, they have no realization, but they manufacture their ideas. That is dangerous. Mislead themselves and others. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam. This is the process of knowledge. These so-called scholars and politicians, they have no ācārya. Instead of being amānitvam, they're mani... "I have become a leader, so whatever I shall say, it will be accepted." This is going on. Very bad. It is clearly said, as soon as you give up the ācārya system it is rotten. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. So things which is rotten, what you'll get benefit? That is going on. Therefore in spite of so many Gītā commentators, big, big leaders, scholars, not a single person is converted into a devotee. Not a single person amongst their followers. It's useless talking. Therefore it is forbidden. Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtam... Because they are not Vaiṣṇava, politicians and-reject them immediately. Immediately. That is the injunction. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are so respectful. People have got... Now you have got your svarāja. Please take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and let us preach." *Dr. Patel: Raj Gopalacharya in his commentary, he has mentioned that Bhagavad*-gītā should be learned through the ācāryas. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: As Gopalacharya has commented. He was a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Raj Gopalacharya was sensible man amongst the whole lot. Dr. Patel: He was a Vaiṣṇava cult. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. Cakravarty. So (indistinct), I say that amongst the whole lot he was a sane man. Raj Gopalacharya. Because by culture he's a Vaiṣṇava. [break] Prabhupāda: ...agreement with Jawaharlal Nehru. Dr. Patel: He never was in agreement. Prabhupāda: Not a single item. He therefore resigned. He wanted to form his own party. Hari-śauri: Who's that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Raj Gopalacharya. Dr. Patel: If they had followed Raj Gopalacharya this country would have been far better in knowledge. Raj Gopalacharya. That is because he was paraṁ bhakta, to tell the truth, always. *Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate [SB 5.18.12]. Therefore he was qualified. Anyway, if you are interested in Bhagavad*-gītā, how you can misinterpret? How you can put your own words to mislead people? How much misleading this is. *Hari-śauri: Actually they're not interested in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: I knew all these things but what I am? I have no position. *Dr. Patel: But what you have commented is correct. And the Bhagavad*-gītā, real thing is man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Instead they directed their attention to karma and this and that. It was and similar thing... Prabhupāda: But because they did not learn subject matter from ācārya. Yes. Ācārya, one has to learn from the ācārya. Dr. Patel: Ācārya is one who ācāra, himself practices. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No. One who knows and practices. Ācinoti śāstra. One who knows the real purpose. And there is no difficulty of understanding the real purpose. It is clearly said, everything. The process of knowledge is given, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam [Bg. 13.8]. Where is that? In the beginning, "Oh, I am such a big leader, politician. Whatever I say is nice." Dambha. Dambha. Because he's thinking puffed*-up falsely. Some rascal fools give them clap. (Prabhupāda claps) They think, "Oh, I have become very great." Dr. Patel: Nowadays sir, they collect people to clap them. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. They make such a speech and practice. One political leader, he is young man, he was saying in Hyderabad... He was ambassador in... That Rao? Hari-śauri: Yes, Motilal Rao. Prabhupāda: So he did not know. He said that "When I was going to be ambassador, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he told me that, "You first of all write a speech and practice it and deliver it very nicely. Then they will applaud." This is Dr. Radhakrishnan. They want simply applause. That's all. Because they know, "If the public applauds, then I keep my position. I am... Whatever nonsense I speak or whatever nonsense I... it doesn't matter." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Public support. Prabhupāda: Bas. That is their only business. Hari-śauri: Some of them, they don't even write their own speeches. They have a professional script writer. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professional writer and some speaker. Dr. Patel: All of them. (indistinct) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the President of the United States has a speech writer. *Prabhupāda: ...learned scholar, English licensed. We know that Madanmohan Malhotra. In those days Surendranath Bannerji was a great orator. You have heard his name? Surendranath Bannerji. He is the practically father of Indian nationalism. So he was I.C.S., and in those days English scholar, His father was big doctor. Dr. Dugdhachandra Bannerji. So his speech, this Madanmohan Malhotra used to rote, cram, and before a mirror he would speak like this. "Oh..." In this way he became a politician. He was smārta*-brāhmaṇa and he became a politician. Simply by imitating Surendranath Bannerji's speech. Dr. Patel: Even those who are with Baroda Maharaj and all Maharaj's speeches were written by (indistinct) so one can (indistinct) These are your ideas Maharaj, "Well, everyone knows that I am writing it. It doesn't matter. I won't correct it." All the speeches given by Maharaj of Baroda was written by (indistinct). All, all, practically all. Here's a reference there. And he was a great scholar after all. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. He was English born. His father was medical man. Dr. Madanmohan Bannerji. Dr. Patel: They say he did not know even Bengali properly. *Prabhupāda: Yes. How he can? He was born in England. Educated in England. He was English*-born. Dr. Patel: Then he became a master in Sanskrit. That is a great, I mean intelligent... Prabhupāda: That may be. He was a scholar. They were big scholars. He was professor in Baroda University. Dr. Patel: Professor of French and Philosophy. Prabhupāda: There is one hall, Aurobindo Hall, in Baroda. Dr. Patel: All followers of Aurobindo are Bengalis and Gujaratis. Prabhupāda: Hm. No, there are others in foreign countries. He was scholar. *Dr. Patel: In the āśramas Bengalis, and Gujaratis will go fifty*-fifty. There are some South Indians also there. You are from India? He had a very big following of Gujaratis. Prabhupāda: Because he was first in Gujarat. Dr. Patel: Baroda Maharaj, when he, when he did not appear in horse riding test, (indistinct) but he did not want to start the qualification (indistinct) So he came. So Baroda (indistinct) Maharaj knew he has came. Baroda Maharaj was in England then. He called him (indistinct). The same thing as the Britishers did at Baroda. That is, Baroda Maharaj was appreciated. Prabhupāda: No, he was a person to be appreciated. There is no doubt. He had so many qualifications. But he was also doing yoga practice. When he was put into... No, after getting released from jail, twelve years. He was to be hanged. Dr. Patel: C.R. Das. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: It was said that the man who was judge, was his classmate in Cambridge, Oxford, or something like that. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Dr. Patel: C.R. Das made a very good speech. I have read all about what he practicing yoga in jail when he was himself written when he came to the minister's court. He felt that everywhere was Kṛṣṇa. Everyone was... He was seeing Kṛṣṇa everywhere. That was his feeling. So he would not be punished by anybody. But God is everywhere. His brother was transported to the... He was to be hanged and then he was transported to (indistinct). Prabhupāda: (indistinct). [break] This is the fact that yato mata tato patha? Whatever path you accept, that is all right? He said that. Do you think it is bona fide? Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam, and he approves anything. Dr. Patel: He was a partial political leader also. Prabhupāda: That's all. He's a political leader. Dr. Patel: But then he had a great burning desire to see that India be free of British purpose. He was a real nationalist... *Prabhupāda: That even cats and dogs, they also want that my cats be well fed and strong. That is not a very good position. And Bhagavad*-gītā says aratiḥ putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. This is philosophy. And if one is attached to his homely happiness he's not even a man of knowledge. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: When Vivekananda came back from foreign tours, he brought three women and one woman was intimately connected with him. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You, you have seen yourself. Why there was no men in America? He came back... Dr. Patel: I think he was a brahmacārī throughout. Prabhupāda: You do not know. There is an old man... Some old woman, he said about he's connected. Dr. Patel: Subash Candra Bose (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Marriage is good. But to keep illicit sex, that's the most sinful activity. Marriage is allowed. Dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. That is not against. Dr. Patel: Great number of luminaries have been produced by Bengal. Last year we read in Times of India more luminaries were produced in Bengal than any other... Prabhupāda: No, Bengal... They maintained the culture. But therefore I say that Vivekananda broke that Bengali culture. *Dr. Patel: Bengali culture is fish*-eating. Even brāhmaṇas eating. Prabhupāda: No. They are eating fish only. Because Bengal is full of rivers. But not for all. Mass of people, that's a fact. But he introduced, "You can eat anything. It has nothing to do with religion." In Bengal in our childhood we have seen if anyone was habituated to take meat... Common man would not. Rich man. The rich men they have their sahis. Sahis you know, who takes care of the horse. So he would cook in the horse shed. Dr. Patel: And eat there. Prabhupāda: No. Then he'll bring the (indistinct) and eat it. It was never brought within the precincts of the house. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Gujarat and Maharastra (indistinct). Prabhupāda: No, no... These people who were eating meat, they knew that "I am doing wrong." But Vivekananda approved, "No, it is not wrong. It is wrong. Whatever you like you can do." Then they began to eat meat. Fish they were already eating. Meat and chicken and eggs and everything. Dr. Patel: All the sons of Vallabhācārya's followers are eating. Prabhupāda: No, everyone is eating. I know that. Therefore our first regulation is you must give it up. Then we talk of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Patel: My son He does not even tomatoes, saying that if you red color. Prabhupāda: Tomato was not taken. Dr. Patel: No, no. That is what he says. I won't eat. He does not eat because his mother was 100% vegetarian and we would not allow even... Prabhupāda: In our childhood no one would eat the tomato. It is not... It is red color, but everything vilāti. It is called vilāti begun. So no one would touch. Hari-śauri: Tomato? Prabhupāda: There was prejudice because it was brought from... Even potato. Strict Hindus would not take potato. Potato was imported from England. It was not produced... Just like Tulasī. Tulasī plant we have imported, exported. Similarly, so many things... Dr. Patel: They have not allowed tulasī to be grown in America. Prabhupāda: Oh no? Who said? Dr. Patel: Mr. Shaheb, (indistinct) tulasī plant for his daughter. Prabhupāda: No, we have got so many tulasī plants. Hari-śauri: Every one of our centers has so many tulasīs. Prabhupāda: Every temple we have got big, big tulasī. Especially Hawaii we have got six feet high tulasī. Dr. Patel: I have (indistinct). They won't allow plant. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is agriculture. You cannot take any plant. Not only tulasī. Any plant from India. Dr. Patel: You may take away the diseases. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Not only tulasī plant, any plant you cannot take. You cannot take any vegetables. There is agricultural restriction. Dr. Patel: But I think tulasī can be grown in all the countries. Even in cold. Prabhupāda: Little cold countries with little care. Dr. Patel: England? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. We have got tulasī. Dr. Patel: You may have to keep it in hothouse during winter. Prabhupāda: Yes. We make that arrangement. And what Vivekananda said, that it is better to water eggplant tree. Why tulasī plant? What you will get? Eggplant tree means you'll get some eggplant, begun. (Hindi) This is his culture. Make your body strong and stout by eating meat, and there is nothing to do with the... Dr. Patel: The result will be the same as Gandhi's (indistinct). This slaughterhouse, so abominable and so horrible. When I first came to Bombay from my village and I had to pass through that railway, that nasty butcher house. It was so horrible smelling and those vultures sitting on the... I became spite of myself. When I came in Bombay. I had to join the grammatical college here. Prabhupāda: You were... Two thousand years ago, Christ, he was born in Jewish family, he was horrified by seeing animal sacrifices in the synagogue. Therefore his first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." He was so horrified. Why he has given this commandment? He was so much horrified. What is this? Therefore he gave up the Jewish religion. He started his own. This is the history. And he first commanded, "Thou shall not kill." Dr. Patel: And the Jews were killing the pigeons in the temple. Prabhupāda: They are very expert in killing. Dr. Patel: I don't know how the religiosity could even... Prabhupāda: So where is religion? Dr. Patel: They have misinterpreted religion. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata has criticized all so*-called religion. Dr. Patel: One patient of mine Sardar Patel, he's a old (indistinct) from Hindus and Muslim. And (indistinct) killing of their... Prabhupāda: Muslims are also restricted... [break] ...for some purpose. Therefore they are called karmīs. Actually, it is for satisfying Viṣṇu. Without Viṣṇu's satisfaction nothing can be done. So those who are desiring some material grants, they used to perform this ritualistic ceremonies. It is not for the devotee. Dr. Patel: For devotee, Kṛṣṇa has said, "I am yajña, and I am also hutam, and I am also performer of yajña." Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he gives the intelligence. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. Unless He gives smṛti, he cannot chant the mantra. "Therefore actually I am performer." Dr. Patel: Ahaṁ kratur ahaṁ yajñaḥ... *Prabhupāda: Therefore He says "I am performer. If I give him instruction, he does something, so he is not doing. I am doing. I say, 'Do like this,' and he does like that, then he's not performer, I am performer." So whatever mantra they are chanting, if Kṛṣṇa does not give him intelligence, he cannot do that. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. Everyone, whatever we are doing, it is being supplied, the intelligence, the everything, but according to my desires. I cannot do anything independent. Just like we are constructing, practically, with the sanction of the municipality, the sanction of the government. Independently I cannot do. Similarly, we cannot anything without sanction of God. But that sanction is ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. I insist, "God give me this facility, give me this facility." "All right. You do it at your risk." But God says, that "You don't do this." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. "What I say, you do. Then you'll be happy. What I dictate you do. But you are dictating Me. Because you are my son, what can I do? All right. Do it." Dr. Patel: (laughs) "I grant you what ever you..." *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the position. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa*-medhasām [Bg. 7.23]. "Because you are rascal, less intelligent you are doing this but this will not endure. You'll be a failure. Better what I say, you do. Then you'll be happy." This is the whole instruction. "You cannot do without My sanction. But you are insisting. What can I do? All right. Do it." Dr. Patel: I grant you. And take the fruit and realize. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. He's there. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni [Bg. 18.61]. If you have done then you must suffer or enjoy. That's all. That is your business. You get... Now you have created a karma. You have to enjoy it by accepting a certain type of body. Now you take it. I ask māyā, "Give him this body. He wants to eat stool. All right. Give him the body of a hog." Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. The yantra, the body is supplied by māyā under the order. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate [Bg. 9.10]. Everything is there. But these things they do not preach. They preach unnecessarily nonviolence. From Bhagavad-gītā, which is being taught in the battlefield, and Gandhi wants to draw some meaning-nonviolence. Immediately it is, what is the value? Not only Gandhi. Everyone. If he can give a new interpretation... I think in Bombay, was there any Dr. Reilly? He wrote some Bhagavad-gītā commentary as... Dr. Patel: I think it's not that Reilly. Not that Reilly, Dr. Reilly, but there is another Reilly in Baroda who taught... Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Dr. Patel: Who taught Sanskrit to... *Prabhupāda: No, no. He has interpreted Bhagavad*-gītā, patient and physician. Dr. Patel: Patient and physician. That may be this Reilly then. He was the dean of one of the medical colleges. *Prabhupāda: Ah. So he has written that Kṛṣṇa is the physician and Arjuna is the patient. And he has interpreted in that way. There are 645 like that, this, what is called, unauthoritative commentaries. Without touching the spirit of Bhagavad*-gītā. *Dr. Patel: Best commentary is the Bhagavad*-gītā itself. It needs no commentary. It is so simple to understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. Prabhupāda: And commentary, interpretation required when you cannot understand. It is very easy and still these rogues will exploit and mislead people. This is... And perhaps, this is the first time I am pointing out. Before that nobody did. Dr. Patel: And you wrote I have read your commentary twice and it has become very harsh on those people. *Prabhupāda: I must be. They are doing wrong thing. They are doing great harm to the... They are misleading the... If I become little more powerful, I shall do it more harshly. I did not show because I was non*-entity. But I knew it. Now people are taking me little seriously, I am talking. [break] In the beginning I thought, Who will hear me? Better wait for the time. Therefore I wrote Mahatma Gandhi, that "Now you have got your svarāja. Please come, let us preach Bhagavad-gītā. You have..." If he would have given the chance at that time, then long ago this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement would have been started. *Indian man: He had only anāsakti*-yoga. Prabhupāda: He has expanded his āsakti from family to the whole nation. Expanded āsakti is not anāsakti. I'm thinking only of my family, and if I think of the whole nation, that does not mean anāsakti. That means āsakti expanded. I am a pickpocket. If I become a great plunderer, that does not mean I am not a thief. You cannot say pickpocket is thief and a great plunderer is a hero. The quality is there. Hari-śauri: There's that story about Alexander and the thief. Prabhupāda: Ah, Alexander and the thief. The thief convinced him, "Alexander, what is the difference between you and me? I'm a small thief, you are a big thief, that's all." Dr. Patel: I will drive the car for today. *Prabhupāda: All right. No, no, why you (indistinct). Young man... [break] ...the world... [break] (laughs) So similarly, if one is giving very important service, then even if there is some faulty thing, excuse. Service is so important. So in the Western country the woman can give very good service. Api cet sudarācāro bhajate mām ananya*-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. This, our book distribution is the most important task in our society. Therefore I am giving so much stress and I am working so hard on this. Because this is my life and soul according to the order of my Guru Mahārāja. And by his grace it is to some extent successful. And I took it seriously. I take it seriously still now. That is my life and soul. I never tried in India to construct big temples or even in your country we didn't. I never tried. But I was selling personally books. That is the history. Sometimes they are criticizing, "What kind of sannyāsī? He is doing book business." (laughs) The other day that, what is his name? Bachu Hai came. Bachu Hai Dresswalla. You know him? Girirāja: I know one Madanlal Dresswalla. Prabhupāda: I think this is... There are two, three Dresswalla in Bhuvaneśvara. Girirāja: Yes, he's also in Bhuvaneśvara. Prabhupāda: Maybe their father. In the beginning I had no place so I was staying with, what is that? Prem Niketan? Girirāja: Prem Kutir. Prabhupāda: Prem Kutir. So they received me very nicely. So I was going to sell my books. So some of them were criticizing, "What kind of sannyāsī? He's making business bookselling." Not the authorities, but some of them. I was writing book also there. Girirāja: I saw the room. Prabhupāda: You have seen? (Śrīla Prabhupāda chuckles) Who showed you? Girirāja: Hare Krishna Das Agarwal. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was very friendly. Actually, he is the organizer, main person. He showed that, "Here Swamiji was cooking." (laughs) Yes. I was guest for fifteen days, that Dalmia. Not this Jayadal, his big brother, Ram*-Krishna. He asked me that his family... He wanted to construct a little cottage in his house, "You can live here. I'll give you a nice cottage." I thought, "No, it is not good to be patronized by a viṣayī." This is not good. Fully dependent on a materialistic... And he's first-class materialist. Girirāja: Yes. He's very notorious. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Actually, I thought he's good man, but after woman. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: One them has lots of wives. *Prabhupāda: That is Ram*-Krishna, he's a big brother. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's also dying now, Tejiyas told me. He's old now. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He's of my age. Not less. But he's after three, four wives. His business is to go from one wife's house to another wife's house and each wife's house, expenditure of ten thousand rupees per month. (chuckles) He's a very funny businessman. He has made his wife director and they take money. So to avoid income tax... So, huge expenditure. Each, one house. Income tax cannot say, "Why you are maintaining?" (indistinct) That is not their business. It is comparison. Just like Bhogilal, he's maintaining big, big establishment. So I became his guest for fifteen days. He wanted to stay. I stayed for fifteen days. I first, my requisition was that he you must give me exclusive typewriter for writing my books. So he gave me. And if I would have asked for typewriter he would have given. But I was working with my broken typewriter. I went to our Tīrtha Mahārāja in Māyāpura, that "You give me a room (Śrīla Prabhupāda taps on table) and a typewriter, (tap) and print my books. (tap) Give me some (indistinct) (tap). I join you." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He said no? Prabhupāda: He did not say no, but the printing of books, that was difficult task for him. He had no money. He's hardly collecting for maintaining. And India, printing of books is a big job. There is no guarantee of sale. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He must be feeling sorry for it now. Of course, he's dead. But later on he must be feeling sorry that if he would have given you... Agreed to your request... Prabhupāda: Yes. These things I would have done from Caitanya Maṭha. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I never knew... We never knew that you went to Tīrtha Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) No... Rather, it is Guru Mahārāja's institution. I first of all gave him... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A chance. Prabhupāda: He's head man. "All right. I shall join you." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When was this? Which year? Prabhupāda: In 1953. Before going to America. Two years before. Girirāja: '63. Prabhupāda: '63, yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: '63 you were already sannyāsa. Prabhupāda: No. '63 I was in Vṛndāvana. Before that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Before sannyāsa. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Hari-śauri: Before coming to Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. At that time I was not sannyāsa. That means it was before '58. Somewhere in '57 or... So I tried my Godbrothers, that if they give me facilities for this, then I shall join. Otherwise, I will work independently. So nobody was able to provide me with this. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Nobody? Prabhupāda: Well, they had no money. It requires money, printing of books. Hari-śauri: How did you manage to get your first Bhāgavatams printed? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: From donations. Prabhupāda: Donation. This Dalmia, Jayadala, he gave me about four thousand. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: H.N. Sharma always tells me, "I helped your Guruji print the first books." Prabhupāda: That was through Hanuman. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Everybody is now taking credit for helping. Now that you are so big everybody says, "I did this. I did that, I did that." Prabhupāda: No, actually, these Dalmia started with four thousand rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're nice people. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I met two of them. They were... Prabhupāda: He gave me twice funds. Four thousand once, five thousand. Five thousand he gave me when I went to America for the second time. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They gave fifteen thousand about three months ago for gurukula in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Oh. No, they are sympathetic. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have promised that after they complete their building, their temple in Janma Bhumi they will give us money regularly. Now they are diverting all their funds to complete that building in Janma Bhumi. Prabhupāda: No, if we want management of that Janma Bhumi they can give it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That Janma Bhumi? Prabhupāda: I can take it. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we can't. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So Prabhupāda, I was just finalizing today this year's festival when the devotees come. I think instead of having a festival, a pandal in Delhi like we had last year. We had one in Ludhiana and Mathurā. In Ludhiana Caityaguru promises that he can raise money for the whole thing. Our devotees won't have to spend a penny. In Delhi if we do a pandal it will require an investment of at least twenty thousand rupees. If we do our festival in Ludhiana, book distribution I calculated will be as good and no money will be invested. We have a festival in Mathurā in Janma Bhumi. Every evening by buses devotees will go from Vṛndāvana to Mathurā. You wanted to have a big program there, you remember? When I was in Vṛndāvana. So we can invite different leaders also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Does that mean Prabhupāda will have to travel? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Delhi to Mathurā. It's only ten minutes flight. Fifteen minutes. Vṛndāvana to Mathurā it's only fifteen minutes. *Hari-śauri: Last time it was an hour. Almost three*-quarters of an hour when we traveled from Vṛndāvana to go to that program. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Vṛndāvana to Mathurā is not more than fifteen minutes. Prabhupāda: Fifteen to twenty minutes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It's not more than that. Hari-śauri: We were at least... We were... Prabhupāda: That we round about way. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Usually it takes by motorcycle fifteen minutes. In a car I think we could do it in fifteen minutes. So I calculated our Hindi distribution of books would be very strong because Mathurā we can generate big crowds. Prabhupāda: You said that today we'll get another book? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Probably come by tomorrow. Prabhupāda: What is that book? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: *Easy Journey to Other Planets*. They finished printing it yesterday and they're binding it together. One or two days, it always happens. When I give a date sometimes it gets delayed. So I figured the distribution of Hindi books will be very good. Ludhiana and Mathurā and also not much investment will be required. It's very common, devotees go every year and they are tired of it. So this year we should concentrate on book distribution. If we have a pandal in Mathurā every evening starting at six o'clock. If we can reach Mathurā at five for book distribution it will be nice. Actually I was also thinking of having a three day pandal in Agra. Prabhupāda: Agra is very good. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Agra is even bigger than Mathurā and our book distribution would be good. I'm going to write and see what the possibilities are. Prabhupāda: Nearby cities we can... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that is what I'm thinking of. Near Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Away from Vṛndāvana. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Girirāja: There's that one man, he was very enthusiastic there, Mr. Bansalji. Prabhupāda: Bansalji. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: From Agra? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Tire merchant? Girirāja: I don't remember. But Haṁsadūta and I went way in the beginning and later on he came during the Delhi pandal. He met you and he wanted us to open a center there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Agra is a very good place. Very nice place. There are devotees. (indistinct) goes there. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can attract a lot of tourists because Agra always has a lot of tourists. I'm thinking of having a pandal there and Ludhiana. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Delhi we had one last year. Prabhupāda: Preaching must go on vigorously. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Especially book distribution is getting very strong with Indians. Prabhupāda: Yes. Preaching means book distribution. Now utilize here this flag ceremony. Girirāja: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Flag ceremony. Oh that Gujarati? They have a... When is that? Girirāja: On the tenth. Procession is on the tenth. Prabhupāda: Do in such a way that that Sharma will feel something. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Only thing is most of our devotees may be in Allahabad. January 10th? All the devotees will be in Allahabad for that Kumbhamela and I don't think we have enough to... Prabhupāda: No, no. They can go after the tenth. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: After tenth. Okay. Prabhupāda: By fourteenth or by thirteenth. It takes only one night from here to Allahabad. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty*-six hours. We're thinking of renting a small bus for devotees because coming back would be a problem. *Prabhupāda: I think Allahabad takes twenty*-four hours. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty*-six hours. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-six hours by train? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And Calcutta? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Calcutta it is thirty*-six hours. Prabhupāda: Another ten hours. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About thirty*-six hours. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Preach as much as possible. By saṅkīrtana, big saṅkīrtana. Big saṅkīrtana is book distribution and small saṅkīrtana is with mṛdaṅga. Big saṅkīrtana is going on all over the world. Small saṅkīrtana locally. Overflood the demons' Godless civilization. Our declaration of war against this Godless civilization. Girirāja: I met a very, very nice boy yesterday. His father is a life member, but he's studying in Boston at MIT. Prabhupāda: Oh, technology. Girirāja: Very superexcellent student. But he was so submissive and inquisitive that he could really... And because he lives there... Prabhupāda: He qualified? No. Girirāja: He's finishing his Ph.D. Prabhupāda: Oh. So he's very qualified. *Girirāja: Yes. And his father said that he is always the first rank in the class. Very outstanding student. And I mean the best thing is his attitude towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He asked for a copy of the Bhagavad*-gītā and... Prabhupāda: Where he is now? Girirāja: He's in Bombay so I invited him to meet you. Actually, he was so interested that the father became scared at the end. He said... You know first he was encouraging me to influence the boy but then at the end he said, "Don't make him a sādhu." Prabhupāda: Now he has opened his mind. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What's his name? Girirāja: Shah. Prabhupāda: Gujarati. Girirāja: His father is associated with Bhogilal. He's a sharebroker but he's also a director in some of Bhogilal's company. Prabhupāda: That Jain? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Shah's are mostly Jain. Jains are useless. Girirāja: Oh yes. The father is useless. Every few sentences the father would start to break in with some speculation and the son would say, "Please be quiet. I want to hear." (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 2, 1977, Bombay Dr. Patel: She had a very religious background. Prabhupāda: Women are generally... Dr. Patel: They're more religious, yes. My children... My son does not eat, I told you the other day, even tomatoes. He's going to States for a fellowship, and I don't know what he'll do there. Prabhupāda: No. If you don't like to eat tomato, who is going to force? That is not... [break] *Dr. Patel: Hindu, that is wrong nomenclature. There is no Hindu dharma. It is a..., Hindu is a way of life. Even Muslims live the same way, even Christians live the same way. The sanātana*-dharma is the real word. Just use it and then everyone says. I heard it in a letter to American consul about this matter. In there I mentioned sanātana-dharma. I have said sanātana-dharma, not Hindu dharma. I have mentioned like that. Real (indistinct) is the Vedic religion. *Prabhupāda: Because the religion actually means the law given by God. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion is not manufactured. Dr. Patel: One ācārya has said, dharmāgnira sadācāra śruti smṛti (?)(indistinct). What is mentioned in the śruti and smṛti, that is dharma. Sadācāra. Prabhupāda: Basic principle is that it is made by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now there are books, how to carry out the order. And the ultimate understanding, how to become faithful to the (indistinct). Just like good citizen means faithful to the government. Unfortunately these rascals, they do not have any idea, the supreme controller, supreme government. They say anything automatically. Dr. Patel: Vaiṣṇava is a good citizen of the government of God. That is Vaiṣṇava. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is dharma. And Kṛṣṇa teaches that dharma. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. Who will surrender unless he's a Vaiṣṇava? Pālikā: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This morning you would like to take your breakfast after the program or after resting? Because I do not want to prepare the idli... Prabhupāda: Later. All other dharmas are cheating. *Dr. Patel: Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Prabhupāda: This is dharma. *Dr. Patel: Sarva*-dharmān means all other vocations, I would say. Dharma means whatever vocation... Is one of the interpretations. "All vocations you leave and come to Me only and be My bhakta." That is... I would... Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Prabhupāda: Yes. God is great. We are small. The small business is to serve the great. That is going on everywhere. Dr. Patel: And mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja means "You do work according to My dictate. That is My śaraṇam." Prabhupāda: This is śaraṇam, not that you remain independent from śaraṇam. No. Dr. Patel: That means you obey the infallible laws of God. *Prabhupāda: God says man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām. This is dharma. Dr. Patel: They are thinking of psychological, sir. If you think of a particular thing, then you become merge in that. Practically your mind becomes so... That is how the researches are carried out by (indistinct). You become mad on that. You become mad on Kṛṣṇa. You get... Prabhupāda: It is natural to serve God, to remain faithful to Him. This is natural. Artificially you are trying to be independent. This is the Māyāvāda... Still, they are trying to become God himself. Dr. Patel: Sir, after first I met you, some previous time, I made an extensive study of both the sides of Vaiṣṇavism as well as the (indistinct). I think they are falling short of the final (indistinct). Once they say that they are in Brahman, but there is Parabrahman also. That Brahman is nothing but a jyoti of Parabrahman. That they forget. Prabhupāda: That means knowledge. Dr. Patel: And I think, sir, even Śaṅkarācārya has not meant that we must be short of that. He was also worshiping, was he not? He was worshiping Parabrahman. *Prabhupāda: He has given a commentary on the Bhagavad*-gītā. In the beginning he says nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ, "Nārāyaṇa is transcendental." Dr. Patel: But these fellows are misinterpreting later on. Prabhupāda: The whole world is full of demons. And they are demons. Who declare himself, "I am God," he's a demon. *Dr. Patel: Only one who has actually realized Parabrahman and the, become the real (indistinct) of Brahman, he has got a right to say Brahma... Unless he becomes brahma*-bhūta [SB 4.30.20]. *Prabhupāda: Brahma*-bhūta... Jīva-bhūta, everyone is thinking, "I am this body." That is jīva-bhūta. And when understands that "I'm not body, I'm within the body," that is brahma-bhūta. Dr. Patel: That is ādya. Perpetually Brahman... Prabhupāda: No, this is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins from this point. "Why you are thinking that you are one of the family members? This is bodily concept." Dr. Patel: Nobody is your relative, but the soul can never die. This is the body. Body has no value. Lot of mosquitoes, you know? Prabhupāda: Mosquito? Here? Hari-śauri: There's a few. Prabhupāda: What is this? Hari-śauri: This is a (indistinct). Dr. Patel: I'm not covered (indistinct) my legs. There's a lot of mosquitoes in here. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Dr. Patel: If there's biting, (laughs) here you don't get malaria but you get elephantitis. Prabhupāda: Maybe elephantitis. Dr. Patel: Because the elephantitis, that's very common in the (indistinct). The mosquitoes are infected by elephantitis and they infect you. These mosquitoes are (indistinct) ...carry malaria carry this elephantitis. All these villages on the coastline, right from Ratnagiri up to Dvārakā, whole coast is infected by elephantitis. Everywhere you go you see big, big leg. In fact it is right from Bhuvaneśvara. On Bhuvaneśvara sea water these mosquitoes breed even in (indistinct). I made a special study of malaria, so I have studied all the types of mosquito, and that particular mosquito on that coast is called (indistinct). Because they came right from Sundar Island. (swamps) Prabhupāda: Sundar island, Sundarban, Bengal. Dr. Patel: Sundarban has gone in Pakistan side. Prabhupāda: Still in West Bengal. Sundarban is near Calcutta, about fifty miles. *Dr. Patel: All water*-logged country. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are big, big tigers, big, big snakes. That Bengal tiger is famous. That tiger, his tail sometimes ten feet. *Dr. Patel: Bengal tigers are very ferocious. They are all man*-eaters. Here in Gujarat, lions are only in Gujarat in India. Those lions walk about like dogs in the jungle. They don't attack any human being. Whole of India only that is the place where lions are found. Prabhupāda: Big lions? Dr. Patel: Big lion. They have counted, there are not more than 300 lions now in the jungle. Prabhupāda: Why? They were killed? Dr. Patel: That is in, just near (indistinct), that big jungle. Prabhupāda: Central India also there are lions. Dr. Patel: There are no lions anywhere, sir. Lions only in Africa and India in this place. Not even South America, anywhere. This Gujarat, this particular jungle, and Africa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Africa they have hunted down all the lions on safari. Prabhupāda: Killing business. Dr. Patel: They have killed them at random. There is a disease called sleeping sickness. This sleeping sickness is common in the wild game and wild animals and antelopes in Africa. That we found out. And from there a type of fly called tsetse fly, he bites them. Just like the flies bite those animals, then when you go in the jungle they bite you. When they bite you they transfer the germ from animal to you, and you get the sleeping sickness. Now the latest sleeping sickness medicine is dependable, I mean nobody can die. But to arrest this disease in Central Africa, they'll kill all the game. Still they have not been able to arrest this sleeping sickness. Prabhupāda: This is only theory; therefore I don't believe that. Simply theory. Dr. Patel: It's more common in the Congo, in northern Rhodesia, part of Rhodesia and Uganda. Prabhupāda: When they pour water... (end) *Conversation with Yogi Amrit Desai of Kripalu Ashram (PA USA)-*-January 2, 1977, Bombay Prabhupāda: I know everything, but I did not say anything. Yogi Amrit Desai: You knew him before? Prabhupāda: No. When I went to America one gentleman here, Paramananda Mehra, he gave me an introductory letter. So he received me well. In the beginning I was staying in his care. But I did not say anything, but I knew everything. Yogi Amrit Desai: I'm sure you did. Prabhupāda: I was his guest. He was receiving nightly. Of course, I was indirectly saying him that "You are not doing nice," but what more I could do? Yogi Amrit Desai: I have so much love for you, and I said I must come for a darśana. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Yogi Amrit Desai: I was telling to the devotees. I said that you are... Prabhupāda: You are with Dr. Mishra? Yogi Amrit Desai: No, I'm not. I was telling all the devotees here. I said Śrī Prabhupāda is the first man who brought bhakti in the West, where it is needed most. Because there they are so much in the head, thinking, thinking, thinking. This path of love is so profound. Prabhupāda: Just see. If you present a real genuine thing, it will be effective. Yogi Amrit Desai: That is why it is growing so beautifully, because it is genuine. *Prabhupāda: And it is the duty of the Indians to give them genuine thing. That is para*-upakāra. Before me, all these swamis and yogis went there to cheat them. Yogi Amrit Desai: No, they were afraid to give the truth because they were afraid they will not be accepted. Prabhupāda: They did not know what is truth. (laughter) Not afraid. Why? If one is on the platform of truth, why he should be afraid? Yogi Amrit Desai: Sure. Prabhupāda: They did not know what is truth, beginning from Vivekananda. Yogi Amrit Desai: All the way, right. See, after you came... I was there in 1960. I started teaching yoga. But after you came I became fearless to teach bhakti and chant mantras. So now we have lots of bhakti in āśrama, lots of bhakti. And I paid that respect to you because I was afraid to give them because I thought, "They are Christians. They will not like so much devotion. They will misunderstand." But you have performed a miracle. God, Kṛṣṇa, has performed miracle through you. It's just very amazing, greatest miracle on earth. I just feel so strongly about it. Prabhupāda: It is very kind of you that you give this statement. If we give genuine thing, it will act. *Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. This is what I'm doing too. Everyone... We have about 180 people who live permanently in the āśrama, and they all practice celibacy. Everyone wakes up at 4:00, and they sleep by 9:00. And they don't touch even each other. They sleep different quarters. They sit even separately in sat*-saṅga. Everything strict. No drugs, no alcohol, no meat, no tea, no coffee, no garlic, no onion. Prabhupāda: Very good. Yes. We are following this. But you have got any Deity? *Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes. Lord Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā is our Deities. My guru is Swami Kripalu*-anandi. He is in... Near Baroda he has an āśrama. He practiced his sādhana for twenty-seven years, and twelve years was complete silence. The last few years he is speaking once or twice a year because many people request. Prabhupāda: He's not chanting? Yogi Amrit Desai: He chants. During his silence, his chanting is allowed. Because when he says... When you say the name of the Lord, that is not called breaking the silence. So he chants. Prabhupāda: Silence means we shall not talk nonsense. We shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is silence. Instead of wasting time, talking on this material thing, let us chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is positive. And the silence is negative. Stop nonsense; speak sense. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right! That is right. *Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. If one ceases his nonsense, then param, the Supreme... Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. When you have got better things, then you give up naturally the rubbish. So anything material, that is rubbish. Karma, jñāna, yoga, they're all material. Karma, jñāna, yoga. Even up to so*-called yogas, they're all material. *Yogi Amrit Desai: You consider that as a material. Only bhakti*-yoga is more... That's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karma... What is the difference between the karmīs and yogis? Yogis want some siddhis, and karmīs want some material profit. Both of them are in want. They are not free from want. Is it not? Yogi Amrit Desai: No, it depends on the yogi. My guru is a yogi, but he never demonstrated any power ever. Prabhupāda: No, no... Yogi, he wants siddhi. Yogis... Of course, nowadays yogis, they have no siddhis. Yogi Amrit Desai: (laughs) That's right. Even they don't have that. *Prabhupāda: They simply say, "yogi." But the real yogi means they have got siddhis, aṣṭa*-siddhi: aṇimā, laghimā, mahimā, prāpti, īśitā, vaśitā. These are siddhis. Yogis, if they are real yogi, then I can put you into the room, lock it, and you can come out. That is yogi, not by simply showing some posture. Yogi Amrit Desai: That's right. They're the real siddhis. Prabhupāda: That is another thing to control the senses. But real yogis mean the first siddhi is aṇimā. Yogi... Yogi Amrit Desai: They can become smaller than the smallest. Prabhupāda: Smaller than the smallest. If there is little hole in the room he'll come out. Yes. Who is that yogi? That is yogi. Yogi Amrit Desai: Not today. Prabhupāda: Therefore it is cheating. They have no siddhi. *Yogi Amrit Desai: My gurudeva, he reached nirvikalpa*-samādhi seven years ago. Now he is going into divine body. The inner changes are happening, he says. And in pure body... The Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He said every five hundred years one yogi achieves that pure body. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Santa-jñānesvara, (?) They are lines who reached that spot. Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu never said. Yogi Amrit Desai: Divine body? [break] ...and renewed and young again. This is what he is... Prabhupāda: So if you become young, do you mean to say that you will not die? Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes, because then the body will dissolve, like his guru... Prabhupāda: The body... But you... You may get young body. Does it mean that it is guaranteed that you'll not die? Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is it? Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes. Prabhupāda: Guaranteed? Yogi Amrit Desai: He can reappear anytime, reconstruct his body, physically or... *Prabhupāda: Reappear any... Soul is reappeared, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So reappearing, that is natural. That is not wonderful thing. Everyone is reappearing. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Suppose you are in this dress, and after one hour you come in another dress. So you are there. The dress is changed. That is happening by nature's way. It doesn't require any yoga practice. It doesn't require. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. These things are there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Trivikrama: And the spiritual body? Spiritual body means... Prabhupāda: Soul. Spiritual body is now covered with the material body. So anything material, that will not exist. So body is finished; then he has to find new body. Just like the dress is old; *it is finished, you take another dress. And when you haven't got to take dress, or this material body, and you remain in your spiritual body, that is called mukti. That can be achieved only in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. Mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām [Bg. 9.25]. If you practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness then it is possible; *otherwise not. Tyaktvā deham. Everyone has to give up because this body will be old, and one has to give it up. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma [Bg. 4.9], he doesn't accept any more material body. Then? What does he...? He's finished? No, he's not finished. Mām eti. He becomes eligible to go back home back to Godhead, and there he dances with Kṛṣṇa. That is real mukti. Muktir hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ sva*-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. Anyathā rūpam. Now this rūpa is not spiritual, it is material. And mukti means when he gives up this material body and no more accepts any material body, he is transferred to the spiritual world to play with Kṛṣṇa, to dance with Kṛṣṇa, to talk with Kṛṣṇa. That is real... Paramaṁ siddhi. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. [break] And so long one is the material things, he... The lowest stage is the karmīs, the little higher stage, jñānī, and little higher stage, yogi. And the highest stage? Bhakti-yogī. Yogi Amrit Desai: Bhakti. No matter what path you follow, without bhakti it is incomplete. Prabhupāda: So you cannot go to God... Yogi Amrit Desai: No, without bhakti, no. Prabhupāda: No. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. Kṛṣṇa never says, "By karma, jñāna, yoga one can achieve Me." Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. So unless you take to bhakti, a little advancement it may be, but that is material. Yogi Amrit Desai: It's not of the highest nature. *Prabhupāda: So you can take... You have taken to bhakti*-yoga, but take it seriously, pure bhakti-yoga. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Brs. 1.1.11]. [break] ...favorable, according to bhakti-yoga, then he is successful. Trivikrama: Śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā. Yogi Amrit Desai: Pure bhakti. (Hindi) jñāna... *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Kevala*-bodha-labdhaye, kliśyanti. Just to know things, if he's simply troubling, his gain is that troubling only. Śreyaḥ-sṛtiṁ bhaktim udasya kliśyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. So jñāna... This jñāna is to understand. Just like the scientists, they are getting some knowledge, studying some features, and what do they gain more? Yogi Amrit Desai: Just information and a memory. Prabhupāda: They cannot give any real position. They are studying so many molecules, so many atoms, so many this, so many... They are mixing... They are... That is already going on. How it is going on? Who has set up the machine going on? That they do not know. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. They don't know the key part of it. Prabhupāda: Neither they can set up similar arrangement. They're simply studying. Yogi Amrit Desai: They can study what is, but they do not know how it came about. Prabhupāda: Yes. So where is jñāna? Ajñāna. Yogi Amrit Desai: And it can at the most increase the convenience on the material plane. *Prabhupāda: Jñāna, real jñāna, is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Find out. Etaj jñānam iti proktam ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā. What is jñāna, that is stated. But where is jñāna? Everyone is ajñāna. General people, they're karmīs and, little more, jñānīs. But jñāna is not complete unless he knows the Supreme Lord. Yogi Amrit Desai: Unless he has realized. Prabhupāda: Not realized, no. Just like we are talking personally. This is... Jagadīśa: Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam, ācāryopāsanaṁ śaucam... [Bg. 13.8]. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is ācāryopāsanam. That is required. But these yogis, jñānīs, karmīs, they have no ācārya. They are self*-made. Just like Dr. Russer.(?). He's self-made. So what he will do? Now he's caught up. He's in the trap. He's not a scientific man, but he presented himself as very scientific, so now he's caught up. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. You found it right away. Jagadīśa: There's an index. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Go on. *Jagadīśa: Sthairyam ātma*-vinigrahaḥ, indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam anahaṅkāra eva ca. Prabhupāda: Indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam, not to indulge in sense gratification, not to dress himself as a sādhu, as a swami. Yogi Amrit Desai: Not external. Prabhupāda: He's servant of his senses, and he has become a swami. Just see how cheating it is. Yogi Amrit Desai: That's the real meaning. Prabhupāda: Swami means who is the controller of the senses. Yogi Amrit Desai: Master of the senses. Prabhupāda: Senses. So instead of swami, he is servant of his senses, and he is preaching as swami. These swamis go to the foreign countries. Indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam. Yogi Amrit Desai: They have vairāgya to his senses, of the senses. Prabhupāda: A sannyāsī... A sannyāsī means he has ceased all material desire. There is no material desire. And the concentrated material enjoyment is sex. So if one could not control his sex life, then how he is swami? He's cheater. Yogi Amrit Desai: That is the most potent of all the external attachments. *Prabhupāda: That is the essence. Mahat*-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgam [SB 5.5.2]. Tamo-dvāram. Viśatāṁ tamisram adānta-gobhiḥ. Adānta-gobhiḥ, by uncontrolled senses, one is going down and down to the darkest region of material existence. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram. So those who are sensuous... One should not be sensuous. That is also... And if he mixes with sensuous persons, then he also going to the hell. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. One who attaches himself to that. *Prabhupāda: He's also going to the hell. Adānta*-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. So without ācāryopāsanam, without being under the control of ācārya, these are all bogus. Yogi Amrit Desai: That's exactly what I believe. That's so true. *Jagadīśa: Anahaṅkāra eva ca, janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. *Prabhupāda: They are showing some magic. Just like this child was being treated. So he could not check the process of death. Neither it is possible to stop the process of death. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha... Our real unhappiness is this-janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. So otherwise why there is knowledge? He does not know what is the miserable condition of life. Everyone knows that he is going to die. He has taken birth; he has become old; *he has suffered diseases. Then where is the solution? In America this yoga practice is very popular, and they want some solution of the miseries. But here it is said, "Where is the solution?" Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi is there. Where is your solution? You cannot stop death. Then where is the solution? This is cheating, that "I shall make solution of your suffering." But a intelligent man will say, "Can you make a solution of my death, of my old age, of my disease, of my birth?" That is knowledge. But they are poor fellows. They have no knowledge and they cheat. That's all. Where is solution? Solution is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9], it is said. Otherwise cheating. Yogi Amrit Desai: Other is settling for the lesser, and it doesn't take you to the highest. Prabhupāda: That means they do not know what is solution, what is the process of solution. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. Just taking care of the body doesn't take you anywhere. That's the lowest. Prabhupāda: You may take care as carefully as possible, but it will not exist. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. No matter how much you take care of it. *Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. Then? Jagadīśa: Asaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ... *Prabhupāda: Asaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ putra*-dāra-gṛhādiṣu: completely detached from family life, anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ, not to associate with so-called society, family, community. Yogi Amrit Desai: All detachment from everyone. *Prabhupāda: This is all material. Asaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ putra*-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. Then? *Jagadīśa: Nityaṁ ca sama*-cittatvam iṣṭāniṣṭopapattiṣu. *Prabhupāda: Nityam. One must know that "I am eternal." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. "So I must act accordingly." And so far material distress and happiness is concerned, sama*-cittatvam. *Yogi Amrit Desai: Sama*-cittatvam under both success and failure. Prabhupāda: That is immaterial thing. They are superficial. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. It's so beautiful to hear that. And I know you mean it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then? *Jagadīśa: Mayi cānanya*-yogena bhaktir avyabhicāriṇī. Prabhupāda: This is possible when it is added with bhakti. Yogi Amrit Desai: With bhakti. Then only. Prabhupāda: Mayi ca. Ca means also. Simply practicing these things will not help. Unless there is bhakti, they'll not agree. Yogi Amrit Desai: It's not complete. *Prabhupāda: No, no. It will not agree (avail?). One may be artificially tyāgī, but if there is no bhakti he'll fall down. Just like Viśvāmitra was a great yogi, but because there was no bhakti he fell down. He had relationship with Menakā and gave birth to Śakuntalā, such a big yogi. So he fall down, must fall down in māyā, because there is no bhakti. So they have so many cases we see, fall down. Then if you fall down, then where is your bhakti, jñāna? Nothing. But bhakti does not fall down. If he's really on the bhakti stage he does not fall down. Others must fall down. Must. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Then? Jagadīśa: *Prabhupāda: Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Then? Jagadīśa: Etaj jñānam iti proktam... Prabhupāda: Etaj jñānam. (Hindi) ...jñāna. Ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā. Anything else, that is all ajñāna. Anything else. Yogi Amrit Desai: Anything else is ajñāna. Prabhupāda: Ajñāna. None of them. *Yogi Amrit Desai: Prema*-bhakti is sac-cid-ānanda. (?) *Prabhupāda: No, tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. Tattva. Tattva, what is tattva? Yogi Amrit Desai: Who? Yes. *Prabhupāda: What you are doing there? [break] Actually, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Asat mithyā. [break] ...asat, but we are now situated in this asat situation life after life. That is called mṛtyu*-saṁsāra-vartmani. Accepting one body after another, another, another, another, it is going on. Therefore, asat-saṅga-tyāga ei vaiṣṇava-ācāra [Cc. Madhya 22.87]. Then what is that asat? That Caitanya Mahāprabhu..., strī-saṅgī eka asādhu kṛṣṇābhakta āra. There are two asats. Two asats. Asat-saṅga-tyāga. And to give up asat association... Then the next question is: "How you will know who is asat, who is sat?" So He said, asat eka strī-saṅgī. Anyone who has association with woman, he is asat. Yogi Amrit Desai: That is the strongest bond between the..., to the body and the soul. *Prabhupāda: He is asat. He doesn't... We say that strī*-saṅgī, to associate with woman without marriage, we say, "Don't do this," but Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, either illicit or legal, it is asat. Yogi Amrit Desai: Either married or unmarried, it is not. *Prabhupāda: It is asat. Therefore, when He was twenty*-four years' age, He gave up His young..., home, wife. He became a sannyāsī, practically. And He was very, very strict to talk with woman. No woman could come before Him to offer respect. Little from far off. But His one of the personal associates, he simply desired. Immediately he was rejected, Choṭa Haridāsa. Yogi Amrit Desai: I didn't understand. His personal associate... Prabhupāda: He had His personal associate. His name was Choṭa Haridāsa. He looked upon one woman with lusty desires. Yogi Amrit Desai: Oh, I see. He looked upon a woman with a lusty desire, and he allowed it... Prabhupāda: He immediately rejected him from His association. Yogi Amrit Desai: Really? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And He was so strict... This man, being hopeless that he'll not be able to associate with Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he committed suicide. Yogi Amrit Desai: Really? *Prabhupāda: And when He learned that he has committed suicide, He did not regret. "Yes, this is the just punishment." You see how much strictly. [break] And He said, asat saṅga. Yoṣitāṁ saṅgī*-saṅgaḥ. He said that. Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes, very rigid. *Prabhupāda: Very, very. But if one is able to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu and receives a little mercy... He is very merciful. He is prepared to be merciful to anyone, any fallen soul. But if we take it, His mercy, if we simply follow His instructions, then our life is successful. Life is successful. Yat*-kāruṇya-kaṭākṣa-vaibhavavatāṁ taṁ gauram eva stumaḥ. Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī... Even if we are not able to take His whole mercy, a little part of His mercy, then our life... Yogi Amrit Desai: Before I leave, can they just stand here and have darśana and then we go? Can they come in? Prabhupāda: Who? *Yogi Amrit Desai: My sister and my brother*-in-law. Those... Prabhupāda: They are here? Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogi Amrit Desai: Just darśana. So they won't take too much energy. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yogi Amrit Desai: I'll call them. *Prabhupāda: So Govinda dāsī, you are feeling all right? Like this atmosphere? So Caitya*-guru, your program, that you are going to construct temple there? [break] Aiye [break] You must accept the standard way, then you'll get siddhi, you'll get sukha and parāṁ gati. Unless you follow the standard way, na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim. So if you have interest in bhakti-yoga, then you practice the bhakti-yoga properly. That will make you successful. Otherwise, teṣām asau kleśala eva śiṣyate, simply whatever labor you are doing, that is your profit and no other profit. Kleśala eva. Nānyad yathā sthūla-tuṣāvaghātinām. The example is tuṣa. Tuṣa you know? The skin of rice? Husk. Yes. So if there is paddy, if you beat it, you'll get rice. But if you beat on the husk, then... Yogi Amrit Desai: You won't get anything. Prabhupāda: But your gain is only that labor. So similarly, if you don't know what is the substance, you go on laboring, that laboring is your only achievement and nothing else. Yogi Amrit Desai: Such a beautiful example. If you keep on beating the husk... Prabhupāda: What you'll get? Yogi Amrit Desai: The labor you get. Prabhupāda: Śrama eva hi kevalam. Trivikrama: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Jaya. (guests leave) This is Japanese? Trivikrama: Chinese. I'm in China now. Prabhupāda: In China proper? Trivikrama: No, no. But that is from China proper. Prabhupāda: So what is the news? *Trivikrama: We have distributed about 2,500 now of Chinese Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Out of five thousand. Trivikrama: Yes. But also now, coming, I found out the Hong Kong temple has been closed. Prabhupāda: Closed? Maybe. What...? *Trivikrama: Because we are thinking of shifting to Hong Kong because our program mainly is in offices, you know. We go in office, and we dress with a suit and tie. So they're thinking that we're businessmen coming to buy something from them. So they treat us very nicely, "Oh, sit down. How do you do, Mr. Brown?" offer some tea or something. Then we immediately open up briefcase and present one of your Bhagavad*-gītās. Then we preach a little bit. We tell them that "We've come here. This is the first time in Chinese language, a very wonderful book. So many men have recommended." And then they appreciate a little bit. Then we say, "If you could help some little donation," and they give us. But these are mostly high-class men in offices, you know. So now we're kind of depleted, because ordinary men don't speak English. So we're going to Hong Kong, but there's no temple there. We'll have to live in hotels. Prabhupāda: And where is that boy gone that was in Hong Kong? Trivikrama: He went to New York. Prabhupāda: He is a Chinese man. Trivikrama: He went also. Well, the president was Sevānanda, an American boy, his wife... It's a difficult part of the world, Prabhupāda. No one likes it. Prabhupāda: Hong Kong. Trivikrama: People don't take. Even in Taiwan, now we are Republic of China, but we had a nice center, but people just aren't interested very much. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You got a copy, eh, *Easy Journey to Other Planets*? Prabhupāda: It is very attractive. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You like it? We only did ten thousand each, but I think we'll sell it out in Kumbhamela. And if we have these two pandals in Ludhiana and Mathurā... Prabhupāda: So why don't you order more? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Right now I don't have much money, so I'm going slow. But when we sell, we'll get the money back, print more. Prabhupāda: No, I can give you some loan. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We will do that. We may need a small loan because... Also the printer came to see me. I told him to bring down the Bengali Gītār Gān price, and I'll think we'll print only one lakh here because his quality is much better than a small letter press in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: So if you regularly do businesslike, I can give you loan. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We may need a small loan, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'm not asking till it becomes... Prabhupāda: No. For printing books I'll give you loan. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually the BBT's turnover now is around four lakhs. A year ago we opened this BBT account with only two thousand rupees in the bank. Now it's gone to four lakhs. Prabhupāda: Books which are sellable, you can print in quantity. That will be cheaper. These books I think will be... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We're going to sell this for one rupee, fifty paisa. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Indian: Yes. Prabhupāda, I am taking two books. (mixed Hindi and English) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we purposely did not have a spine here. We wanted to keep the cost low. You know you cannot get everything. If you want to keep the cost low, then you have to make some small sacrifice. Prabhupāda: (yawns) We want first quality. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But for Hindi books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we find pricing is also very important. Because in Hindi and Bengali books, they cannot sell for more than a rupee or rupee, fifty. In English books... Prabhupāda: So at what price you are selling? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is costing us seventy*-eight paisa. So BBT will sell it to the temples for eighty paisa, and the temples are free to sell it for one, one-fifty. So we're charging reasonable price, so we can go after quantity. Prabhupāda: No, if it can be sold at two rupees, you spend little more. Yes. Indian: That's what I said. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I selected the most popular pictures for covers because people buy in India on the basis of covers. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very nicely selected. Both pictures are very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All the three books, I think, the pictures have come out quite nice. Prabhupāda: There are others also? Indian: I went to the printing press, and I asked him "Why don't you print like the other books you have, *Easy Journey to Other Planets*?" So he said that "We have done little mistake, and the next printing it will be better." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not a mistake. We perfectly agreed. You told me so, that (Hindi). Prabhupāda: What will be price for one lakh? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Of this? I think it will go around a velo(?), because the real book cost seventy*-eight paisa; *paper is about forty paisa. So paper, whether you buy one or one lakh, it's the same. Printing is about thirty-eight paisa. And out of thirty-eight paisa, plate*-making and all will come to about ten paisa. Prabhupāda: Plate is already made. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's what I'm saying. No, I'm just saying by increased run how much can you save? So I imagine you save about three paisa, four paisa more per book. It's not enough to warrant extra investment. I have analyzed the difference between doing large print runs India and America. In America and Europe labor is very expensive. So to them, to stop the machine in between and start again, it's very expensive, so it makes a lot of difference. But in India labor is cheap. So for them to stop the machine in between and then start again, it's not so expensive. So the ceiling is not as great as the extra investment you have to put in. Therefore I'm not doing large run except where it's absolutely necessary. Prabhupāda: No. Items which are selling, that we can do because... *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Like Bhagavad*-gītā we did one lakh. Prabhupāda: ...to wait means that waste of time. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But Bhagavad*-gītā, we're doing one lakh copies now, and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is our first experiment with the paper manufacturer here. He's making paper for us exactly like American, especially for us. So I've given Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto, Part Two. We are printing ten thousand. Four thousand we'll print on this government paper, softbound, for cheap distribution, and six thousand on expensive American paper, hardbound, for export, because we will be able to export it for a dollar forty, which is two dollars below what Los Angeles charges. Substantial... So as an experiment, I only wanted to... I've ordered paper for six thousand expensive hardbound. Let's see how the paper is. If it's good, then we'll use the same paper for one lakh. Before taking a risk on one lakh, I wanted to experiment on a smaller run. Trivikrama: So I'm also thinking about printing again. Now we have just enough... Prabhupāda: We can print here. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have very good arrangement. Prabhupāda: At what price you are printing? Trivikrama: Pretty cheap. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hong Kong is very expensive. Prabhupāda: No no, let him say. Trivikrama: Well, you know the book we have, six chapters. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Trivikrama: It costs seventy*-five cents, U.S... *Prabhupāda: Seventy*-five cents. So multiply it by six. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It comes to about six rupees. Prabhupāda: It's costly. I think here it must be cheaper. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There're very few... How many color illustrations in it? Prabhupāda: Just take quotation. If you can, you print here. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And if it is for export, it will be even cheaper. Prabhupāda: We can take quotation. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. How many color plates do you have? Hm, 298, 300. Well, we can take a quotation and see. Prabhupāda: Here it must be cheaper. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Have you seen the Gītās we printed in India? Here are our samples. They're very good. Actually, I mean I'm not trying to be rude... Because I was negotiating the prices for the Chinese *Gītā* when... You know that time. Sevānanda was telling me all the prices of the worst of Hong Kong for that time. It was above a dollar. Trivikrama: Yeah, I know, but that was in Hong Kong. We got it printed in Taiwan for cheaper. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Because he sent me for dollar forty, dollar thirty. I have the prices with me. *Trivikrama: And this was... That was also for the corrections. No, the price is about seventy*-five cents. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Only thing I've told Jayatīrtha and Bali*-mardana Prabhus to do is to open a letter of credit now because we are going to be exporting these Gītās at export price. And the bank is giving our printer a loan of ten lakhs. So he has to show the bank a letter of credit, so I hope they send it, and then this will start rolling. End of February is our first shipment. We're going to ship ten thousand Gītās. Prabhupāda: Letter of credit you can get. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I hope they give it. Prabhupāda: Bank of America will give. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? [break] Prabhupāda: (referring to Kumbhamela?) When I was in midst of the crowd, the crowd was so big that I was afraid: "If there is any rush, this child will be finished." Because if there is little rush, you cannot go back; you cannot go forward. Hari-śauri: Yes, if you go in a crowd. Prabhupāda: It is very dangerous. And if there is some force, you become suffocated. So still, people were going slowly. By grace of Kṛṣṇa nothing happened. But same thing happened later years when Jawaharlal Nehru was present. So many people crashed and fallen in the river Yamunā and died. Hari-śauri: Drowned in the river. Prabhupāda: The rush came, and there was no protection. Hari-śauri: We'll have to be very careful if we go to bathe in the river. Prabhupāda: No, now they make arrangement, section by bamboo, so the rush may not be very pressurable. Section by section. So section they go. Now the arrangement is better. But formerly the arrangement was not... It was open, and people come. As soon as there is little rush, pushing, there is great danger. Hari-śauri: (laughs) Sounds like an auspicious place to die, though. Prabhupāda: Yes. So I remember that day. I was thinking that "Such a big rush, forty million." Forty million, er four million. Hari-śauri: Four million. Prabhupāda: And if there is little push, then this poor child Hari-śauri: The reason for the Mela is because there was some drops of nectar from the... Prabhupāda: It is actually a religious conference. All the different groups, they gather in that holy place, and they propagate their philosophy, discussion, like that. India is country of religion. They know how spiritual life more important than this material life. That is India. Now they are diverting their attention to the material; otherwise whole India, they are for spiritual life. They don't care for material ... This material life is brought from Western countries, these railways, these..., so many things, bridges and so on, so on. Hari-śauri: Factories. *Prabhupāda: Factories and industry and export and import and then slaughterhouse, drinking, prostitute*-these are all British contribution. In India, before that, they did not know, although there was Muhammadan kingdom. Muhammadans were happy as ruler. They did not... They thought that "Let them execute their own religion, and let us our religion." That was the relation. And Hindus, they took it that "Somebody must be government..." [break] ...policy that "If the Indians remain as Indian, it will be impossible to govern. Give them education and condemn everything Indian." And they engaged their own men, engaged our men, and gradually they developed the industry. Naturally people became very much astonished: "Oh, they are making such a nice bridge. We have now laid down the railway. We have got facilities, so on, so on..." They gave them, for developing these enterprises, a little knowledge in English, ABCD, they would get good job. In this way they established. Money and export, import... This business enterprise and industry, these..., all these things, were introduced. There was not a single factory before British days. Industry idea is completely Western. And tea garden. Girirāja: I know Mr. Bajoria in Calcutta, he told me that in the beginning the Indians would not purchase tea because they considered it was sinful, and the British had to make a big propaganda. *Prabhupāda: Yes, tea sets(?) committee. All the tea gardeners, all, they were mostly Britishers. They paid money for maintaining a department, tea sets(?) committee, and their only business was to make propaganda village to village how tea becomes popular. Similarly, drinking, meat*-eating... And it became a fashion among the richer class to keep prostitutes, go to the garden weekend with prostitutes and wine, freely use them, intoxicated. It was a prestigious position to keep a prostitute. A rich man having a garden and one prostitute, they were... Anything in demand... I have seen it. Now I think, "How things are going on, that...?" You have seen that Mullik's house? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Thakur Mullik, Rādhārāṇī. So in their festival some dancing girl would come, vaibi.(?) That was aristocratic, to call a prostitute and dance. So at that time we were children, five, six, seven years old. So persons who were of our father's age, they would sit down round the prostitute exactly like the street dogs surround one female dog, exactly. They had no shame even. This was aristocratic. And talking all nonsense, and if the prostitute smiles, they become very much obliged. She is (laughter) smiling. And amongst our mother's friends, they were talking, "My husband has kept that prostitute." And another lady... We were at that time boys, three, four years, but I remember all these things. Another lady, "My husband has kept that..." Girirāja: They were proud. Prabhupāda: In our childhood I saw. To go weekend to the garden and... Generally they go with family, and others, they go with prostitute. With prostitute they have got freedom to handle. The higher... And not only that, during marriage ceremony, high circle marriage ceremony, they would participate in drinking, even men and women. Otherwise, in India, woman drinking or taking meat is a horrible crime. And what to speak of smoking? That is most shameless. That was aristocratic, drinking and eating meat... The Bengali, they were the richer section because others, they were foreigners. They came to Calcutta and earned money. And the Bengalis, they had their aristocratic families, zamindaries, everything in their occupation. So Bengalis were richer section in Calcutta, and..., four, five big, big families. And now they are finished on account of this aristocracy. So one gentleman, he was Harendranatha Singh, very rich man, one of the richest men of Calcutta. He lost all his estate simply by this extravagance. Every evening his house is full with guests every evening, for... What is called? That table? Girirāja: Billiards? *Prabhupāda: Billiard*-playing or some exhibition of singing, and hundreds of men will gather. And they were feasting, first-class food. In this way spending, spending, spending... And then prostitute, aristocracy. In this way one property and one property lost, everything. At last I saw him going by rickshaw. One day it was raining, and I saw that he was sitting in a rickshaw, and no friend asked him that, "Haren Babu, why you are...? You come to my car," so many. And he was friendly to so many zamindars, kings, and very intimate with... But they lost of everything, and nobody cares. His sons, they are of our age. I do not know whether living or not. But most probably they are not living. They became professional singers, coming of such aristocratic father. His father, that Mr. R. N. Singh, was a very good singer. That also was another aristocratic that aristocrat family-art, some art: painter, singer, poets. Just like Rabindranath Tagore. They became famous as artist. Avanindranatha Thakur, he became famous as artist, and Rabindranath Tagore became... They also followed the aristocratic family, Calcutta. Similarly, this R. N. Singh became a singer. Because they are rich men, they have nothing to do, so... And nobody instructed them how to become saintly person. Simply debauchery and... [break] On the whole the whole human civilization is..., and all the directors, they are not giving chance to know the value of life and how to conduct life. It is the first time, that we are giving the real idea of life. Otherwise whole world is in darkness. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatim. They do not know what is the end of life. Adānta... Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Vyāsadeva's real contribution... Ajānataḥ, lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām [SB 1.7.6]. He has given the right direction. And they are not taking advantage of it. If they come to sense some day, they'll read all these books, and they will come to know how to live life. That is our contribution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The whole world plunged into darkness. They do not know what is life and what is the aim of life. That's a fact. Periodically, they manufacture some ideas, and people will follow, and then it is failure, and again another revolution. They are..., the Russian philosophy, that periodically revolution required. That is also to some extent. But why revolution? Take the standard. They do not know what is the standard. Hari-śauri: That means they're always imperfect. Prabhupāda: Imperfect, surely. Let us do something about it. Hari-śauri: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 2, 1977, Bombay Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Trivikrama Mahārāja? Hari-śauri: I think he's rather keen on working in Southeast Asia still. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He spoke to me this morning. He has to go back for some time to Southeast Asia, but he's willing to stay in India and travel between centers. He's a very nice sannyāsī, and I think it would be a very good idea. Prabhupāda: Call him. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is giving a class right now, but he cannot go... He told me that he has to go to Southeast Asia first because he has books and everything. Hari-śauri: He has two men there still. There's two men there still, and they have about two and a half thousand books still to distribute. He said one of the reasons he wanted to come was cause there's no center... (end) *Prabhupāda: ...that a high*-court judge and he does not know what is God. How misfortunate he is. And he's speaking of God, "Surrender," all theoretical. They do not know what is surrender. If I say anybody that "Go to Dr. Patel and surrender unto him, and whatever he'll prescribe, you take it," but if he does not know what is Dr. Patel, then where he'll go and what to surrender? This is their position. They speak big, big words but do not know where to go. It is not? What do you think? Dr. Patel: They do not believe in what you say... *Prabhupāda: Huh? That is the truth. Actually they do not know, and they cheat others, speaking about God. That is the difficulty. All rascals are doing that. And if I say, "All rascals," it is little harsh, but it has to be said. They do not know what is God, and they speak of God. Let them say frankly that "I do not know what is God." That is answered in the Bhagavad*-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. If they are sincere, then after many, many births... Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta... [Bg. 12.5]. They do not know, and they will not accept ācāryopāsanam. The ācārya says, Rāmānujācārya says, Madhvācārya says, big, big ācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu... They will not believe them. They will speculate in their nonsense speculation. This is the difficulty. Without going to the ācārya... Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. This is the Vedic process, how one can know. But they will speculate. Ciraṁ vicinvan. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvayaṁ jānāti tattvam... Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvayam, leśānugṛhīta eva hi jānāti tattvaṁ na cānya eko 'pi ciraṁ vicinvan [SB 10.14.29]. One who has little mercy of God upon him, he can understand, but others, they can speculate for many, many births; *still, they'll never be able. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja*-dvayaṁ leśānugṛhīta jānāti tattvam. Leśānugṛhīta eva hi. Leśa. One cannot know God full. That is not possible because you are limited; He is unlimited. Still, if one has learned, at least if one has accepted, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. Bas," his knowledge is perfect. If he simply believes only that "Here is God," he can understand. They don't believe that Kṛṣṇa is God. "Eh... He may be very powerful...," so on. Kṛṣṇa says aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. These rascals will not believe. "So what is there for me?" Mūḍho nābhijānāti. If they remain persistently mūḍhas, who can make them understand? Very difficult. (Hindi) Gandhi did not believe in Kṛṣṇa. Huh? Dr. Patel: I don't know that. I think he... Prabhupāda: You should know. You have read Gandhi's book. Dr. Patel: He practiced Vaiṣṇavism. That is what my wife said. Always, daily, to worship. Prabhupāda: This is not... I do not know what is Gandhi's book, his *Gītā* lecture. Why don't you purchase them? Explain. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll get you some. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He mentioned that, that "My Kṛṣṇa is different imagination. My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different." That is his position. He imagines. He has... (Hindi) "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa..." This is... How he can believe Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is preaching violence, and he's trying to draw nonviolence. The people will challenge, but he makes his own commentation, his own imagination. He said, "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different." This is his word. And actually... He is the student of Bhagavad*-gītā and in his āśrama there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. He does not believe in Kṛṣṇa. But believe or not believe, he was reading Bhagavad-gītā, had respect. That will give him some profit, there is no doubt. [break] Yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpam. Everything is clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā. I speak, therefore, to my disciples that "You simply repeat like parrot Bhagavad-gītā and follow by your life. Don't try to become very big scholar, do interpretation. Remain foolish and believe in Kṛṣṇa. Then life is perfect." And actually that is happening. They never tried to eschew and... What is called, the English word? Draw out some meaning. Eschew or something? Jagadīśa: Eschew is the right word. *Prabhupāda: They do, everyone. The Tilak has done like that, Gandhi has done like that, Vinod Bhave is doing that. Dr. Radhakrishna has done like that, Vivekananda has done, Aurobindo has done*-everyone. Nobody would take directly, that "Here is God." What do you think? They have taken directly? Do they believe? Dr. Patel: They believe in God. *Prabhupāda: No, believe in God, that is everyone doing. So what is their special credit? Why do they touch Bhagavad*-gītā and say, "My imagination of God is different"? How cheating it is. If your imagination of God is different, why do you touch Bhagavad-gītā and declare yourself that "I am a student of Bhagavad-gītā. My life is also for Gītā?" *Dr. Patel: Even when Tilak... Tilak says he follows Bhagavad*-gītā always. Prabhupāda: Everyone says that. But nobody says... Dr. Patel: A part of it, not the whole thing. Prabhupāda: Nobody says that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." That is their fault. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You can bring the car down at ten o'clock. Prabhupāda: Nobody says, "Here is God." That is, perhaps... We Vaiṣṇavas say; I am preaching. Perhaps I am the first preacher to the world, that "Here is God." *Dr. Patel: Some of these great Vaiṣṇava ācāryas were doing interpretation of Bhagavad*-gītā... Prabhupāda: The who is ācārya except the Vaiṣṇava ācārya? All loafer class. All loafer class. They're not ācāryas. Except these Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, who is ācārya? They're not ācāryas. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān [SB 11.17.27]. *Dr. Patel: I read your Bhagavad*-gītā, and after that, I read Rāmānuja's. They more or less the same... Prabhupāda: Same thing. There is no difference between the ācāryas. Then how he becomes ācārya if there is difference of opinion? They cannot be ācārya. (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 3, 1977, Bombay Prabhupāda: Why should be checked? This is the point. Girirāja: I don't think that the court will decide against us. Prabhupāda: If they decide that... There are many other court judgments in our favor. Then we must adopt civil disobedience. There is no other, second way. "Capriciously you cannot impose anything against the law, against the judgment. If you do, then we shall also disobey." That should be the last resolve. Hari-śauri: I remember when we were first beginning in Melbourne we were harassed very tremendously by the Council. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know that. Hari-śauri: And they were putting us in jail and everything. And actually every court decision was against us too. But somehow or another, we just went out on saṅkīrtana, every day distributing. We were getting booked, then fined. Then we wouldn't pay the fines, so they would come and they would raid the temple at two o'clock in the morning and try and take us away to jail. And... It went on for months. And then in the end there was so much publicity about it... When we went to jail we were fasting. So there was so much publicity that the Council became very embarrassed that they couldn't get rid of these boys and girls. They became so embarrassed that they stopped their harassment, and we carried on with our saṅkīrtana activities. So actually, if we just determine just to stick with it, then there's nothing they can do. What can they do to us unless they kill us? I don't think they can do that. Prabhupāda: So your wife came... [break] This is Indian attitude. They do not care for the modern, civilized way of life, wasting time reading some nonsense book or going to the bars, the cinema, talking unnecessarily. They do not like. Those who are old style, they do not. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I know many women who are very good cooks, I have tasted... Prabhupāda: They have no time to waste time in that way. They must be inclined that "I must prepare something nice so that my husband, my children or my, all friends will be very pleased." That is their policy. I wanted that all our girls, they should be expert. And in America they are doing that. They should learn the art of cooking and prepare very nice foodstuffs, daily change of menu. And the children should be so trained up that no more birth. And that is life. They can produce hundreds of children, it doesn't matter, but must be responsible that "The children should be saved. This is the last birth, no more birth. I'll train the child in such a way that next life he's going to Kṛṣṇa, back to home, back to Godhead." That is parent's duty. Otherwise they should not become parent. That is contraceptive: "I am not fit to train my children in that way, so I shall not produce cats and dogs." This is life. Why shall I produce cats and dogs? And Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was gṛhastha, he produced Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. That is one... So in this way, if there is ideal institution, ideal mode of living, it is happy; *everything is all right. That is gṛhastha. Produce Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "If I can produce kṛṣṇa*-bhakta as children, then I'm prepared to marry and produce hundreds of children." And if we cannot, then we shall not produce even one children. Just like Vasudeva and Devakī in their previous life. What was the name? Their determination is "If we can get a child like God, then we shall produce. Otherwise we go on, tapasya. And when Kṛṣṇa came, "What do you want?" "I want You." "Who is like Me? I shall appear. I shall appear." Anyway, we have got such huge establishment. Utilize it very properly everywhere. Another thing, that in Vṛndāvana... You remember the corner land, parikrama, last time? That is available by acquirement. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The corner land to the left? Left of Gurukula? Or... Prabhupāda: No Gurukula... When we go to the chuni,(?) in front of... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ha, ha, ha. In that direction. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is agricultural land. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Right opposite... Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Where that gate is. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Right before the gate. That is... I was under the impression that belonged to some Christian man. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is first. After crossing the road, the corner. Hari-śauri: Where the parikrama path is. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is available for...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually that would be good if we get that. It's right next to our temple. Prabhupāda: So why not try for that? You can get it, I am sure. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I'm going to Vṛndāvana in ten days. Prabhupāda: So if we can get that land, then we can divert our sewer in the land and utilize it for nice agricultural purposes. So instead of spending lakh of rupees for municipality, why not acquire that land? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Acquire or buy? Acquire. Prabhupāda: Acquire means you have to pay, but government... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but acquire usually takes a long time. Prabhupāda: Not long time. They'll give us, because it is lying vacant. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: On the sewage problem in Vṛndāvana, we'll have to make, do something quickly because even the Gurukula will not be able to open till we can... Prabhupāda: So you can do it immediately. But go on, purchase. It is lying vacant. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, that's a very good idea. But we'll still have to put a pipe underground coming out. Prabhupāda: That is not much, a few you, few yards only. And then introduce it and distribute that water, the whole land, and you will get good agricultural produce, very good. You can have very good business. Hari-śauri: That can be used for agriculture? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This water is very valuable for agricultural purpose. Nature has made in such a way. Aiye. All rejected water, you can utilize for agriculture. Hari-śauri: I think in the West they have a law that says you can't use human sewage. *Prabhupāda: Kick out the West. We are doing here, in India. The municipality is doing that also in Vṛndāvana. Everywhere it is. In Calcutta there is called dhāpāra māṭha. Dhāpāra māṭha, formerly, anything produced in dhāpāra māṭha, that was not used for Deity. The superstition that "These vegetables are grown in filthy water, nasty..." But the vegetables were*-cauliflower so big, so big. Everything, very luxuriantly, very tasteful and solid and big... Dhāpāra māṭhera (Bengali). They used to take. In Bengal, generally, the land is very fertile to produce vegetables. But this, the more the filthy things of the city were thrown there, and the cultivator used to grow very nice... That is utilization of this filthy water where there was sewer ditches formerly. In the village they diverted from the water in the field, and they got good crops. Generally they pass stool in the field. The cow's, cow dung and man's stool and everyone's stool, they are wrapped gathered together in the rainy season. It became fertile. (Hindi) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We will try for the land. Prabhupāda: Immediately. That is... That will be proper utilization. And in the court, unless they arrange for this dirty water out, why shall I pay tax? We shall stick to this position. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We are sticking to it. The only harm to us is our Gurukula is going to get delayed now, the opening. Prabhupāda: But in the meantime you... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And also we are running out of time because we can't let water accumulate the way it is. Prabhupāda: So why you can't? We have purchased that land. They have to... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that is... We'll try for that now. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means... We have purchased that land. By force you can drive out? We are trying for that. Go to the court: "We have regularly purchased that land. What can be done? The municipality is not doing anything." We have to fight like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we are fighting. Prabhupāda: Why you should be afraid? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. I mean the water... We're having all the trouble with the man in the back. Prabhupāda: That I am speaking, that he's trouble. Why he should be giving us trouble? We purchased it. Take land; take money. And we have to purchase the land for this purpose. We are doing other arrangement; that is our mercy. But even that land... The municipality is obliged. Otherwise we can throw the water on the street. That is municipal's duty. Otherwise why shall I pay tax? We shall do everything, we shall pay tax, and we shall suffer? What is this? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We're not paying tax. We are fighting it in the court. *Prabhupāda: So in this way we have to fight. We should not be afraid for these rascals. Why you should be afraid? If they take to guṇḍā*-ism, we shall engage fifty guṇḍās. "Come on. Let us see." We have to maintain that spirit. Anaye yei kare prabhu anaye yei sahe.(?) The Rabindranath Tagore's one poetry: "One who does wrong and suffers wrong, he is wrong." One should not do anything wrong; one should not suffer anything wrong. That is human. If somebody does harm to me, wrong to me, I cannot suffer it. I shall not do any harm to anyone. That's all right. But if you want to give me suffering, I must fight you. Why shall I suffer it? That is kṣatriya spirit. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam. "If you are challenging, 'All right, come on,' I accept this challenge." We have to do like that. Now, this bāniyā spirit... Our Bhagatji, he purchased that land, and he's afraid of him. What is this? Bāniyā spirit. But you are kṣatriya. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He has to... I'm not there all the time. They come to his house to... Prabhupāda: No, you argue with weapon. Beat them. We shall see. Go to the police that "This is nonsense." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, we've done that. Prabhupāda: So how is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: At the present moment he's okay; he's quiet. Prabhupāda: No, we should beat them. If somebody, atatayi...(?) You unnecessarily attack me; I must first kill you. That is my duty. Just like you have done here, Setterji. "I'll bring my revolver." So that is argumentum baculum. Here they wanted to put us into trouble, and he was in great trouble. So he came, he stood: "All right, come on. We shall fight. Bring my revolver." He did that. So we have to do like that. Why shall I tolerate unnecessary injustice. Take that spirit. And in meantime apply. That is the solution. Why shall I spend for them? And unless they arrange for the sewer lines, we're not going to pay tax. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's our position. Prabhupāda: Let us go on, one court after another, one court after... If there is fight, we must be prepared to fight. (Hindi) If required, take Setterji. He'll help. Setterji: Girirāja. Girirāja: He's very heroic. He was very heroic. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is kṣatriya. (Hindi) You take him. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Setterji: In the Pakistan time, I fight forty, fifty men. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is kṣatriya spirit. If you want to fight... Setterji: Yes, always. Prabhupāda: You killed? Setterji: Yes! So many times. Prabhupāda: So you have got experience. Huh? Setterji: Sometimes I have walked on the dead body. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. So many dead bodies. Setterji: I have seen about four men at the Pathan border, and the... One, this Korabhari, this ṭāṅgā, Victoria,(?) came with six Muslims. And they challenged us. Very... "We will kill you." We said, "Yes, come. You kill us; we will kill you. We fight." We were ready at that time because revolver was there and the Kurari Kundasa was there. One, my friend, he was from Gujawala(?). He showed this Kundasa, and his head cut out, and he was running... Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Still running? Setterji: Running! In *Mahābhārata*(?) I was heard that body was running. But actually I have seen at that time. Head was cut and the body was running. Prabhupāda: Just see. (laughter) And then he fell down. Setterji: Then he fell down. And of that, the other men went. Prabhupāda: That, how he was running with his mind, just see. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: With his mind. Hari-śauri: The mind is in the heart. Setterji: And we have saved all the fellows because... Prabhupāda: That, these rascals, they do not know... Setterji: Because if they first, they put us, then our men will do it. So we do first. Prabhupāda: Killing. Setterji: Yes. And the one man get out from the ṭāṅgā, who first cut out his head. Then... And all the others ran out. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Yes. (Hindi) Actually. It was also very disastrous. Setterji: To fight... When fight is there, then... Prabhupāda: That is also Kṛṣṇa conscious. You see how many demons are killed by Kṛṣṇa. Setterji: "Come on." You challenge. You see? I've declared. If they challenge us I am ready, "Come on." At the temple I challenged, "Come on! And you are 150. We don't be afraid." Prabhupāda: So... (Hindi) You have lost your kṣatriya spirit. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Having Setterji with us... When he has (?) relax for few days, rest for few days. Prabhupāda: Huh? If you have lost your kṣatriya spirit, then take him. Setterji: When he came with that barrister to give you to notice... (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi)... Mantrer(?) was so against, that "We must stop this." Yes. I heard from that doctor that he was insulted by Seti, "Either Seti should go..." Like that, he has repeated me. He gave me hint that Seti... (Hindi) And you know that. The doctor, what is that doctor? He suggested. He's Mantrer's(?) man. Yes. Yes. Setterji: He was also play the game in the land, that... Prabhupāda: He gave hint that "Give Mantrer two lakhs of rupees." Yes. He was canvasser on behalf of Mantrer. He wanted two lakhs. Setterji: Which we'll not give you a single paisa. We will fight to you. "Come on." Prabhupāda: So I think you make this point. But best thing is that if you can acquire that land, that is the best solution. We can utilize that land? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, for agriculture. That's very good. Prabhupāda: It is just in the corner. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can have a small gośālā there also. Prabhupāda: Anything we can do. Setterji: Gurujī, one night at the Pakistan front we stay in one place, and forty, fifty men came there, Kuraris and Kundasas. And another fellow which was with me, he was asked to be one of them. So when they came we recognized and we were ready with the revolvers and... The men came and they want to kill us, and we shoot them, five men dead, that time, and the rest ran away. And I took my child, this Brijmohan. He was five days old only. And I took my wife on the back... Prabhupāda: Five days? Setterji: Five days. And I took my wife on the back and child in my hand, and the way was so difficult, and the darkness. And then we... Six miles... Prabhupāda: What about your other children and daughters? Setterji: They were also with us. Prabhupāda: But they were grown up. Setterji: My father took my..., that child who was one year old. Prabhupāda: Oh, father, mother, everyone, whole family. Then how trial they had. Setterji: Six miles from there, and then we got a... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A lot of these Punjabis had to go through this. During the Partition a lot of Punjabis had to face the fight and killing them off. Prabhupāda: No, in Bengal also there was fight. Setterji: Huh? First Bengal? Was in Punjab.(?) Prabhupāda: Noakali there was great fight. Setterji: After this war I cannot slept six months perfectly. Prabhupāda: Mind was so disturbed. Setterji: Because these, that scenes, came always... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In vision. Setterji: ...in dreams that "We were fighting; we were killing, they are killing; we are killing." Prabhupāda: Just see how much struggle. Setterji: Sometimes we wake up fighting, fighting. Prabhupāda: I had such experience. I had some experience in my childhood in 1911. I was thirteen years old. There was a riot. So our house was there in Mahātmā Gandhi Road, and all sides Muhammadans. We are simply... The Mulliks and our house are simply some respectable men. Otherwise it was surrounded (surrendered?) by... That is called Kwalabala and Bastik, all Muhammadans, backside fully Muhammadans. So the riot was there, and I went to play. There is a square, Marker(?) Square. So I did not know the riot has taken place. I was coming home. So one of my class friends said that "You do not go to your house. That side is rioting now." So because we are in the Muhammadan quarter, this fighting between two parties, that was going on. It is usual. So I thought it may be like that, that two guṇḍās are fighting. I have seen. One guṇḍā is stabbing the other guṇḍā. I have seen. And they are pickpockets. When you are passing they would... I have seen, he is pickpocketing. (laughter) And they were our neighbor men. So I thought "It must be like that. This is going on." But when I came the crossing of Mahatma Gandhi... At that time Harrison Road it was. Harrison Road and Holi..., Holiday, Halliday Street, yes. So one shop was being plundered. Putamat putamat putamat..." So I was child, a boy. I became... "What is this happening?" In the meantime all, my father, mother, members: "Oh, the child has not come." They became so mad, they came out of home expecting, "Wherefrom the child will come?" So what could I do? When I saw, then I began to run towards our house, and one Muhammadan, he wanted to kill me. He took his lāṭhi and actually... But I passed through some way or other. I was saved. So as soon as I came before our gate they got their life. So without speaking anything I went to the bedroom, and it was in the month of... It is winter. So I... Without saying anything I laid down, wrapping myself with quilt. So that time I was rising: "Is it ended? The riot is ended?" I was asking. I remember. So I would have been killed in that riot. So I have got experience of this riot. That is the first riot in Calcutta, in 1911. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We haven't had any such experience. Setterji: I was passing on my car after Pakistan from Laul(?) and they put bomb, hand grenade, and the back glass broken, but we... Prabhupāda: Saved. Kṛṣṇa saved. Unless Kṛṣṇa saves, who can? So I had the experience of riot in Calcutta in my childhood. Setterji: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: At any moment. Setterji: "Who are afraid from death? Come on!" challenging... (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Soldiers, they forget that "We have to die." They fight for... That is another madness. In Hindi it is called kunchariya.(?) Setterji: Kunchariya. (Hindi) That is... Ah. Prabhupāda: Soldiers they do that. It is unnaturally he becomes. They become mad after killing. (Hindi) ...kṣatriya spirit. They must be trained up kṣatriyas. If he is bāniyā, he cannot do it. Setterji: (Hindi) ...who have challenged us. So "Come on." Prabhupāda: (laughs) So you are real husband. You gave protection to your wife. Indian lady: (Hindi) (Hindi conversation for few sentences) Prabhupāda: Can you make one cāpāṭi? Hari-śauri: I should make it, or Pālikā or...? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Pālikā. [break] ...business, that requires so many other things. But if you take to agriculture you can do it immediately. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya. That... We are going to do that. Kṛṣi... This is beginning, family life, maintenance, body and soul together. This is the beginning. Business is there when there is excess. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. First of all you take care of the cows and engage yourself in agricultural products. Then when there is excess production, you trade, get some money for other purposes. But you... Agriculture means you work for producing food. That is wanted. Why immediately go to trade? Trade is required when there is excess product. Everything is there. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. And the kṛṣi you can produce independently. You simply work. You have got your hands and legs. You till the ground and throw some seed, and it will come. One kilo seeds, you'll get one hundred mounds. Then, when the product is excess, you trade. Everything is there. If you produce food grain, you'll eat nicely and you'll be strong. You'll be able to work more. Our point is take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Everything will be perfect. Not that Kṛṣṇa is advising immediately sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. For that stage you are not prepared. That I know. But in your present stage what you'll do, that is perfect. Girirāja: You mean I should leave everything and start a farm? *Prabhupāda: Where is the question of leaving? Agriculture... You take to agriculture*-that means you leave everything? Girirāja: Well, what I have now. *Prabhupāda: And what you have got? You are asking that "I require now food." That means you have nothing. You have no food even. (aside:) Oh, you have brought it very quickly. Very nice. All right. [break] Live very comfortably, eat very comfortably and work. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simply wasting time, the civilization... śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Working hard and wasting valuable time of... Misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīya... When I think of their position... So every Vaiṣṇava should be para*-duḥkha-duḥkhī. So you like it? Hari-śauri: For thirty paisa it's very good. For the price it's very good. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it's very good in other ways, full color. We're going to sell it for a rupee, and... Prabhupāda: Kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ prapadye [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. The unhappy for the unhappiness of others. They love them, unhappy without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is a fact. The rascal may agree or not agree. That's a fact. Ghostly haunted. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya. [break] Where is this temple? London? No. Hari-śauri: Which one? Oh, that's the German castle. Schloss Rettershof. Prabhupāda: Oh, France. Hari-śauri: German. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. I think it is rightly done. Hari-śauri: For mass distribution it's very good, for mass distribution. How many copies he's... Prabhupāda: One lakh. (end) *Room Conversationwith C.I.D. Chief-*-January 3, 1977, Bombay *Prabhupāda: So you expand it. A dog is thinking, "I am this body. I am bulldog," "I am greyhound." And man is also thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian." But they do not know their real identity, and they are fighting like dogs. And this is going on in the name of civilization. And when we put forward Bhagavad-gītā, the first lesson is that aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase: [Bg. 2.11] "Arjuna, you are talking like a very learned man, but you are lamenting about the body. But actually..." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ: "So far the body is con..., this is lump of matter. So whether it is dead or alive, nobody seriously think of it, no learned, paṇḍita." Of course, those who are fools, rascal, they can take it. But those who are actually learned, they do not talk about this body. So upon this statement just see the world situation. Everyone is busy on the concept of body. So what is the position of the world? Apaṇḍita, ignorance. And such people are going on as learned scholars, as politicians and leaders and so on. So how there can be peace? If you bring different types of dogs, greyhound and bulldog and Indian dog and bring them*-the "United Dog Association" (laughter)-so will there be peace? That is the position. I declared in Melbourne in a public meeting that this United Nation is the unity of barking dog. I told. It was published in the paper. They also criticized me, "The Swami has come to hound." (laughter) But that is actually the fact. If you become impartial judge, not on behalf of CID or anyone, then you see the actual. CID Chief: That is the truth, eternal truth. What you have said... Prabhupāda: No, we are speaking about Kṛṣṇa. So if I say that Kṛṣṇa says like this and it is a fact, then what is our fault? But they are taking very serious, just like especially nowadays in Western country they are opposing that "This philosophy is a brainwash." So this is our position. Satyaṁ brūyāt priyaṁ brūyāt mā brūyāt satyam apriyam.(?) The world situation is that you can speak truth if it is palatable. And if it is unpalatable, don't speak. But this thing cannot be maintained when you are preaching spiritual life. There we cannot cheat. Spiritual life must be declared very frankly. Not that we have to declare; *it is already declared. Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. The spirit soul is within this body. The body is different from the spirit soul, and as it is changing*-the body is changing-similarly, after death, so-called death... Because spirit has no death, no birth. Na jāyate na mriyate vā. So this knowledge is the beginning of spiritual life. And if you are preaching, they are opposing us. India also opposing. This is our position. They take Bhagavad-gītā and they mislead them. And we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is our fault. So what we can do. Can you suggest? CID Chief: (laughs) I am a layman. What...? *Prabhupāda: No... You should be very kind upon... And what we can do? And if I cheat in the name of Bhagavad*-gītā, then I become a great leader. *CID Chief: All nation has turned... An extraordinary order, you spreading the message of Kṛṣṇa to the world, message of Bhagavad*-gītā. *Prabhupāda: So at least Indians should join this movement. They're feeling the weight, the Western countries. They are opposing means that those who are thoughtful, they are thinking that "If this movement allowed to go on, then our civilization will be finished." That is their... That... They are right. They are right. If these young men, they go on under my instruction, I shall finish their civilization. That's a fact. No meat*-eating in Western countries? (chuckling) No intoxication? No illicit sex? No gambling? That means their life is finished. And we are imitating, that "We are becoming advanced in civilization." And we are condemning. CID Chief: But most of the people realize that that is not the real..., real kind of advancement. Prabhupāda: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." CID Chief: We are helpless. I assure that will stand, but actually what we call advancement in... It is not. People themselves are realizing that... *Prabhupāda: Yoṣitāṁ saṅgī*-saṅgam. CID Chief: ...that advancement has led them to some sort of monotony, which they want to avoid, and they want to... Prabhupāda: No, first of all, we must know the destiny of life, what is the destiny of life. Then whether we are advancing or degrading, then it will be decided. But they do not know what is destiny of life. They are so fools, they are thinking that this life, say, for hundred years, and after hundred years everything finished. The Russian big, big professor, they think like that. I went to Moscow, and I talked with Indologist. They say "Swamiji, after this body is finished, everything is finished." CID Chief: I read somewhere that this scientist, Russian scientist, was making research through electronics as to what happens to the soul when man dies, what actually happens when man dies. What is... Prabhupāda: No, no. You may study with electronics and other, but it is a open secret. The soul departs from the body, and it is a lump of matter. What is the difference between a lump of matter and the dead body? We see practically a motorcar, when it is no more workable, it is a lump of matter. What is the value of it? Who cares for the motorcar? Of course, we do not see here, but in the Western countries there are many places. Oh, hundreds and thousands of cars are... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Junk yard. Prabhupāda: Hundreds and thousands. Here, of course, we have not so many cars, but there in many cities I have seen. They have gathered together, and then they are pressed and thrown to the iron factory and again melted in fire of... So similarly, when the life is not there, it is a lump of matter. So it is lump of matter. Just like the motorcar. When it was being driven by driver, it has value, but when it is not to be driven anymore, it has no value. Similarly... But the motorcar is the same. It is the driver that is important. Similarly, the soul is important, not this body. But the modern civilization, accepting this body as the important, and they have no information of the driver, soul. CID Chief: They try to decorate it, a body, dead body. It is... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Decorating a dead body. CID Chief: No, but I think this..., a lot of a wakening in the minds of people. *Prabhupāda: This education is lacking throughout the whole world, and we have started this movement to give this education, and people are against. That means they have become so fallen that they cannot even take up right knowledge. The same proverb: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." So we have to struggle against this darkness, but we have to do it. This is our mission. We cannot stop it. It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, para*-upakāra. People are kept in darkness, and... That is not Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Kṛṣṇa's mission actually. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. "When people are misguided," tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham, "at that time I come down." So the whole world is misguided on this bodily concept of life, and this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means Kṛṣṇa has come down in the shape of this movement. That is the real fact. Nāma-rūpe kṛṣṇa kali-kāle avatāra. "In the Kali-yuga Kṛṣṇa is incarnated in the form of His name, Hare Kṛṣṇa." Therefore in this age... That... Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. This is the injunction of the śāstras. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. Simply by chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, mukta-saṅga, he becomes free from all this material contamination, and he paraṁ vrajet, he goes back home, back to... So this name is not different. Because Kṛṣṇa is absolute, there is no difference between His name and Himself. And that is confirmed in the śāstra, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends, śāstra recommends. We're just following their footprints, that's all. Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. This Kali-yuga is the ocean of faults. So... But there is one great opportunity in this ocean of faults. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ param... [SB 12.3.51]. That is a great facility to these rascals, that if they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra they become free from all contamination and become fit for going back home, back to Godhead. So this is a authorized movement. It is not a concoction, manufactured idea. So we are doing that. Unfortunately, the people... Not all, but majority... CID Chief: It has gained tremendous and spontaneous response, and people, all people... It has... The strength has shown me that people have taken liking from their soul. Not just... Prabhupāda: No, these young men, they have taken seriously. Otherwise what business they have got to join me? They have taken it seriously. And with their help I am little able to push on this movement. But they are taking it seriously. And big, big learned scholars, they have opined that this movement is not going to die. CID Chief: I saw the photograph yesterday, Vinoda Bhave, meeting with Vinoda Bhave. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're showing the pictures of our Walda (?) meeting. I just showed him pictures of our Walda meeting. CID Chief: Vinoda Bhave. Prabhupāda: Vinoda Bhave is also... He has issued some statement. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He said "What Prabhupāda has done, no one has done," something like that. CID Chief: Otherwise, how can the West would have come to know about Kṛṣṇa? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These are all books by Prabhupāda, all. I was telling our book sales... Prabhupāda: Where is that telegram we have received yesterday? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was telling him our book sales are eight to ten lakh rupees a day. All by Gurujī, all. Can you imagine, Śrīla Prabhupāda writes one book a month. [break] One lakh seventy thousand big books. 90,737 medium books. 63,322 small books, and 437,420..., that is, four lakhs of Back to Godhead. Total in one week: seven lakhs and 9,236 books. In one week... CID Chief: There won't be such a big... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda produces one book a month still. Prabhupāda: Now... I am talking to you as a CID official. Now, here is my dictaphone. I... (clicks dictaphone switch) It is not working. (Prabhupāda plays back section of Bhāgavatam dictation he has made) This is a Sanskrit verse. (synonyms) Tatra(?) saumika. So the whole night I write books, and then this is typed. In the daytime they are typing. And then it is composed, and then it is made into book, and we take so much trouble to sell it, as you got the selling of, and we collect money and they send money, ten lakhs of rupees in India, and I construct the temple, not only here.(?) So is that my fault? CID Chief: No, no, no. The man who would say it is a fault, either he is mad or it would be mistake. *Prabhupāda: In this old age-eighty-one years I am*-I am working day and night just to preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and... CID Chief: This is absolutely a service to God and humanity. Whatever tendency you have... Whatever comes out of your mouth, word, becomes a religious... It is written, out of which you write books. Out of the produce... From the proceeds of that book, you constructed a... It is wholeheartedly towards the God. Whole life is devoted to God. Prabhupāda: And for these books, as author, if I would have taken royalty, my daily income would have been one lakh, fifty thousand. I don't take a single farthing. Whatever two cāpāṭis they give, that's all. CID Chief: Then if that had been the objective, so much of this (indistinct) not would have come in reality. Prabhupāda: I have no appetite also. (laughs) I do not eat too much. Whatever, one or two cāpāṭis, they give, I take. That's all. This is my royalty. CID Chief: But any... How these politicians, they react to this in America? Do they... Prabhupāda: There also... Here. Here people are suspecting that I am getting money from CIA, and they are also suspecting that I am cheating people and getting money. CID Chief: Yeah, but do they have any prohibition about these religious discourses? Prabhupāda: No, not... Prohibition has yet come. But individual cases, they have been instituted, and we are fighting by spending so much money to defend. *CID Chief: Yeah, but I read in some paper that somewhere they had this county courts, you know, ruling that people are disturbed by the kīrtanas and this for twenty*-four hours and... Prabhupāda: No, we have got judgment. You read those judgment, judges? We have got counterjudgements also. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now, this is from Philadelphia, Judge Alfred Longo, U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania. The Philadelphia decree was typical and included the following points: "Kṛṣṇa consciousness is recognized as an authentic religion. To broadcast the glories of God to all people, members of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness society can perform saṅkīrtana, a missionary activity including chanting, dancing, and playing cymbals and drums, the dissemination of the word of God through preaching and reading aloud from religious literature, the distribution of religious literature, sanctified food and flowers to the public, and the solicitation and acceptance of contribution. In performing saṅkīrtana devotees can go wherever people gather: streets, libraries and other public places." So we also had decisions... Eventually we win almost all cases. Prabhupāda: And we have got good support from the scholarly section by big, big professors. Even one priest, Mr. Cox, he is forming an association to support this movement in Harvard University. So we have got supporters also. CID Chief: People are also coming in a good number to join this organization. Prabhupāda: Indian community, they are also supporting us. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All the Indians abroad. *Prabhupāda: Abroad. They got life. There was no temple. There was no hari*-saṅkīrtana. Now they are feeling obliged. In London every Sunday all Indian community, they come. And during the Janmāṣṭamī, ten thousand people. Ten thousand people and the contribution was... What is? Twenty-five thousand pounds or...? One pound equal to twenty rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fourteen rupees. Now it's fourteen rupees. It's coming down every day. Prabhupāda: And they are giving... Practically our temple is going on by the contribution of the Indians. They are giving goods. Rice, dāl, and ghee and our... No scarcity. CID Chief: The Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Deity(?) which is close to most of the Indians. It's a common... Prabhupāda: Yes. Sometimes they ask that "What is your position, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, in India?" And in India everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Everyone. CID Chief: Because if you read from beginning, like the childhood, all His childhood plays and mischiefs and this from the birth, then childhood. Prabhupāda: Every house. Even there are Muhammadan house, they observe Janmāṣṭamī. I know that. One professor in Allahabad, Kavi or something like... I went to his place. He's a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's one big movie star... Not very big. Sanjaya Khan. He's Muslim, but he wears a pendant of Kṛṣṇa always. He's our member. He's promised us a donation of ten thousand rupees after his picture is released. Many Muslims we have members now. Prabhupāda: No, he's Indian Muslim. We have got Iranian Muslims. They are our devotees, many there. CID Chief: Well, sir, I would like to remain here, but now I have to go to my office. Prabhupāda: So give prasāda. Bring prasāda. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prasāda also. Prabhupāda: No, bring here. Jaya. CID Chief: Just touch my hand, that's all, and make me cure bodily... Prabhupāda: Thank you. Thank you. You come whenever you find time. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He comes regularly. CID Chief: I was longing to come, so today I came. It's my great fortune that... Prabhupāda: No... That. Even as CID officer, you can note. This is my business. I am working hard, producing these books, selling, and the telegram you see, and bringing that money here. So if you thing that I am still faulty, then what can I do? CID Chief: From the beginning I have made it clear that I come here to get some mental peace. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have Chinese Bhagavad*-gītā. Actually Trivikrama Swami has just come. He's been preaching in Taiwan. (breaks) (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 4, 1977, Bombay Prabhupāda: What prakṛti? When there is... Dr. Patel: Mithyaiṣa vyavasāyas te prakṛtis tvāṁ niyokṣyati. The prakṛti drags you down in that world. Prabhupāda: Because he was trained up as a fighter. Dr. Patel: Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. Prabhupāda: Our, one of the mission is to reestablish the division of the society according to... Dr. Patel: But, sir, even without redividing them, nature has divided it. Prabhupāda: No, no, nature has divided, but we are taking the post or some position without qualification. That must be rectified. Dr. Patel: That, what you say, that we should not have come in possession of the power in government, is a fact. They have no that quality of governing. Prabhupāda: Yes. What can be done? There is no kṣatriyas. Dr. Patel: They... You see, they govern for themselves, and not for people. Prabhupāda: There is no brāhmaṇa in the society. *Dr. Patel: If they are there, they are not well*-off. Prabhupāda: No, there are. Just like we are creating these brāhmaṇas all over the world; not many, but some of them. There is at least one ideal class. But the modern society, they do not want brāhmaṇas, neither anybody interested to become a brāhmaṇa. That is animal society. You cannot ask a dog, "Please come here. I shall train you as a brāhmaṇa." (laughter) That is not possible. Dr. Patel: Our mixing with the Western type of society... Prabhupāda: Western, Eastern, we don't... *Dr. Patel: We have actually imbibed their spirit of special, I mean, arrangement or management. Otherwise, up to the other day, we were well*-classified. After doing that fifty or hundred years, perhaps, we have lost our real mooring. Prabhupāda: No. It is necessary that in the society all classes of men must be there. Then it will be in order, on order. Dr. Patel: The classes are complementary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: The highest evolved man, the brain trust of the country, has got to be poor and has to be protected by other men. That is the highest. Otherwise, if a man with the brain becomes rascal, that is... *Prabhupāda: Miscreant. They are called duṣkṛti. They have got merit, but engaged in sinful activities. That is called duṣkṛti. Kṛti means meritorious. But duṣkṛtina. There are now... The education is there, but their brain is misused. That is called duṣkṛtina. Therefore they do not believe in God. Big, big men, they are nirākāra*-vādī. *Dr. Patel: This co*-education is no education at all. Education, that was really imparted by (indistinct) and ... Prabhupāda: Education... This is craftsmanship. Dr. Patel: I had an appointment to speak on education in the university of Bombay as a member of the Senate. And all the members of the Senate simply said, "Well, we could not help it because it has been so planned by the government." That is not ... This is not education that we're giving them. We are just giving them instruction how to read and write. The real education is the education of the mind by which you can discriminate what is right from the wrong and follow the right. That is what for the education. Modern universities are humbugness to me... The way I observed the university of Bombay working for ten years as a member of the Senate is humbug. The curricular is humbug; management is humbug; everything. Mode of examination is also like that. Prabhupāda: Because they are not conducted by really educated. Dr. Patel: The education that has been actually put in practice in India by MacCauley was just to prepare people to run their institutions. Prabhupāda: Where is Girirāja? Can you call him? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: He said, Girirāja, that there is some declaration by Vinoda Bhave that "I'm now going to retire." Dr. Patel: Who? Vinobari.(?) (Vinoda Bhave?) Prabhupāda: "Completely. And now I shall endeavor for mokṣa." So that means till now he was not on the liberation platform. Indian: He is... Vinoda Bhave is real brāhmaṇa. He is truly a brāhmaṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes I know that. That may be. Brāhmaṇa is sattva*-guṇa. That may be, but that does not mean liberation. There is knowledge. At least he understands what is liberation and what is not. Dr. Patel: Knowledge put in practice is vijñāna. Jñāna vijñāna saha. Prabhupāda: So, if he's trying for becoming liberated, it is understood that he was not liberated. Dr. Patel: He must have been disillusioned by all this. He has really done work in this way that anybody would be disillusioned. Prabhupāda: Now, our point is that if you are not liberated, how you can become leader? That is cheating. *Dr. Patel: This is the (indistinct). The political, socio*-political... I don't know the sort of... Prabhupāda: Our point is that if you do not get knowledge from liberated person, that knowledge is useless. That is cheating. [break] It is very easy. Just like a child. If he takes your direction, he liberated, and if he acts according to his childish nature, then he's conditioned. If you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then you are liberated. If you manufacture your own idea, then you are conditioned. Two things. Child is not actually liberated. He is child. But because he takes blindly the direction of the father, he's liberated. That is mām eva ye prapadyante. Anyone who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa and strictly follows what Kṛṣṇa says, then he is liberated. Otherwise not. If he manufactures idea, then he's conditioned. *Dr. Patel: It is what? Sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]? Prabhupāda: Yes, and it is very easy: "Henceforward I shall simply follow what Kṛṣṇa says." That's all. You become liberated immediately. It is one minute's task, simply to decide that "No more my concoction, my imagination." Then he is liberated. Dr. Patel: But this decision, all these things is done by the mind which has got all the vartmas of the past births. *Prabhupāda: Mind may be, but if I ask the mind that "You cannot do anything except what Kṛṣṇa says," then you are liberated. Very easy. You see? We are doing the same thing. We are not liberated. I am not liberated. But I am presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. That's all. That's my doing. Dr. Patel: You mean sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. That is your duty you have. That is what ... Prabhupāda: So that verse is very important. That mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. As soon as you become fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, you are liberated, not that liberated means one has to grow four hands and eight legs. No. Simply you have to change the consciousness, that "Henceforward I shall act only as directed by Kṛṣṇa." That's all. You are liberated. It is one minute.... Dr. Patel: How do you get that direction moment by moment, hour by hour? *Prabhupāda: By His representative, by His words, they are present. Where is the difficulty to get His direction? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena [Bg. 4.34]. One who has seen, one who has understood Kṛṣṇa, take direction from him. "He's my representative." Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. If you get right guru, then you are liberated. If you follow the direction, if you want to please him, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **, then you are liberated. Otherwise, what is the meaning of this? Mām eva ye prapadyante. There is no need of waiting for liberation. "As soon as one surrenders to Me, he is immediately above the platform of māyā." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So what was the Vinoda Bhave's statement published in the paper? Girirāja: That he's not going to give any more public lectures and he's not going to give any more advice to any institutions. Prabhupāda: But, now he's thinking that it is useless. Otherwise why he would say like that? And mokṣa? He's going to try for mokṣa? Girirāja: Yes. He's saying that by reducing these activities he wants to get mokṣa. *Prabhupāda: So, our point is that if he was not on the platform of mokṣa, liberation, why did he waste his time by spoiling himself and for spoiling others? Now he has come to his senses, it is good, but it is to be understood that he simply spoiled his time and spoiled others' career by misleading them. Thus, without being liberated, nobody can guide anyone. That is useless. That is andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. If you have no eyes, then how can you lead others? If you are blind and they are blind, then what is the use of becoming their leaders? Actually all the so*-called leaders and scholars, they are blind themselves and they have become big, big leader. That is the misfortune of the present life. And, therefore, our proposition is you take direction from Kṛṣṇa and His representative. That's all. That will help you. Try to understand this point. Our system, paramparā system, is that I am just like disciple of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. I don't say that I am liberated. I am conditioned. But because I am following the instruction of Bhaktisiddhānta, I'm liberated. This is the distinction between conditioned and liberated. When one is under the direction of a liberated person... The same thing: Electricity. The copper is not electricity, but when it is charged with electricity, if it is touched, that is electricity. And, similarly, this paramparā system, the electricity is going. If you cut the paramparā system, then there is no electricity. Therefore it is stressed so much. Sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. The electricity is lost. These people, they do not know. Now at the fag end of life, they are thinking, if intelligent person, that "What I have done actually?" If one has sense, he should come to this understanding. By cutting some, what is that? Dead trees? The civil disobedience began by cutting dead trees. Is it not? Vinoda Bhave, he began his leadership forty years ago by cutting... Gandhi also, civil disobedience. So this kind of leadership might have been little enthusiasm for the time being, but actually what people gain by that, such leadership? *Dr. Patel: Anta*-kāle 'pi brahma-nirānanda. He thinks that way, that in last moment he is, come to that stage, he will be ... *Prabhupāda: That is very good, but we should know also that so long, whatever he has done, that is from the blind platform, so nobody has gained anything. And if it was on the real platform, then svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. So kṛṣṇa*-bhakti is such nice thing that even a little... There are many places it is confirmed that even a person in kṛṣṇa-bhakti stage falls down, being immature, what is the loss there? Bhāgavata... What is the loss there? *Dr. Patel: There is no loss, since Kṛṣṇa said, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga*-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate [Bg. 6.41]. *Prabhupāda: So that is the... If kṛṣṇa*-bhakti, a little done... And what does he gain? If he does not take kṛṣṇa-bhakti and does a duty, what does he gain? Abhajatāṁ svadharmataḥ. Abhajatāṁ svadharmataḥ. He is strictly following his occupational duty, but he's not a bhakta. What does he gain? Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer [SB 1.5.17]. Can anyone quote this verse? *Dr. Patel: Bhakti is your... Sva*-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya [Bg. 18.46]. If you do your... Prabhupāda: That is the beginning. That is the beginning. That is also bhakti. But bhakti means he must be conscious that "Kṛṣṇa is my Lord. I have to serve Him." That is the beginning of bhakti. Dr. Patel: If he is not conscious, how can he do work for Him? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the beginning. Then it becomes purified more and more and more and more by service. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau [Brs. 1.2.234]. Then he realizes his position. Svayam eva sphuraty... The more he advances in sevonmukha, by service, God becomes revealed to him. And then buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. Then as he becomes more confidential, then he is imparted buddhi-yogam, means bhakti-yoga. What is that bhakti-yoga? Yena mām upayānti te. "That bhakti-yoga, by which he can come back to Me." Not that bhakti-yoga means you remain here in this rotten place. Yena mām upayānti te. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam [Bg. 10.10]. He can receive that buddhi-yoga. What is that buddhi-yoga? Yena mām upayānti. So this is required. This is the ultimate goal of life. *Dr. Patel: But that buddhi*-yoga which we have left undone in the previous birth, God with His mercy gives you that buddhi... *Prabhupāda: Buddhi*-yoga continues, continues. If it is unfinished... Unless that buddhi-yoga is complete, one is not allowed. One is not allowed. He remains within this material world, very opulent position. Position like Indra, Candra, Brahmā. They are devotees, but not pure devotees. They have got some tinge of material enjoyment. Therefore they are given big, big post. One has become Brahmā, one has become the king of heaven; one has become the king of moon planet, sun planet. They are not ordinary living being. *Dr. Patel: Ananya... They are not ananya*-bhaktas. *Prabhupāda: No. They had some tinge that "By bhakti I shall enjoy this material world." And bhakti means anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. I have not at all, niṣkiñcana. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad*-bhajanonmukhasya. They don't care for this Brahmā's post or Indra's post or... They don't care. *Dr. Patel: Bhakti*-cāriṇī. *Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate. For a devotee, this kaivalya*-sukha of the Māyāvādī, impersonalist... Dr. Patel: Just like naraka. *Prabhupāda: Is the hell for them. What is this nonsense? Who will understand this? Huh? Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate. And heaven, tridaśa*-pūrākāśa-puṣpāyate. Heavenly planets, they are will of the wisp. Phantasmagoria. Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa-pūrākāśa-puṣpāyate durdāntendriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī. Karmī, jñānī... Jñānī wants kaivalya and karmī wants heavenly happiness. And the yogi, yogi wants to control the senses. So he says that "Yes, we know the senses are very powerful." Durdāntendriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī. Indriya, it is just like snake. If you play with a snake you do not know at any moment death is there by biting. So although these indriyas are like snakes, kāla-sarpa, venomous serpent, but protkhāta-daṁṣṭrāyate. We have... What is called? Extricated? Girirāja: Extracted *Prabhupāda: Extracted the fangs. The fangs if they are taken away, it may do like useless. Similarly, for a devotee the indriyas are dangerous. But because devotee, hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa. they have engaged their indriyas in the service of the Lord, the fangs are taken out. Durdāntendriya*-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī protkhāta-daṁṣṭrāyate viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate. The whole universe for them is very happy. Everyone is it is very unhappy. For them it is very happy. Because he does not see anything which is not suitable for Kṛṣṇa's service. Viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate. Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa-pūrākāśa-puṣpāyate durdānta indriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī protkhāta-daṁṣṭrāyate viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate(Caitanya-candrāmṛta 5). And the post of vidhi, means Brahmā and Mahendra... What is this? Kīṭāyate. It is just like... Dr. Patel: Bug. *Prabhupāda: Ha, just like ordinary insects. He is also living entity. He is enjoying in his own capacity, he's enjoying. Vidhi*-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate yat-kāruṇya-kaṭākṣa-vaibhava-vatāṁ taṁ gauram eva stumaḥ. "It happens so by the little fragmental mercy of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Therefore I offering my obeisances unto you." Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī. Durdāntendriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī protkhāta-daṁṣṭrāyate viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate yat-kāruṇya-kaṭākṣa-vaibhava-vatāṁ taṁ gauram eva stumaḥ(Caitanya-candrāmṛta 5). This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy. A little mercy will render all this. So what he will do now that he has not said? Girirāja: He just said that "I will not follow religion in the traditional sense." *Prabhupāda: That means another condition. From frying pan to the fire. (laughter) Dharmena hīna paśubhiḥ samaḥ. As soon as you give up religious principles, you are no better than animal. That means he will manufacture. The same disease. "I'll not follow the traditional." This is their death block. That they always think that "I am independent. I can manufacture my way. I can become happy in that way." They're always thinking like that. And in a meeting with hundreds of men claps, that he is his liberated. "Now it is approved." Who is approving? That is criticized by Bhāgavata. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. This. They are animals and they are applauding another animal. That's all. Big animal. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ. These ordinary persons, they are paśu and they are applauding. The man who is applauded, he's another big paśu. That's all. Dr. Patel: Camels, asses... *Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. *Dr. Patel: Just like camel and ass. Ahorūpa mahad*-guṇaiḥ. (?)One man... *Prabhupāda: They... It is very difficult. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. speak all these big, big words they have no qualification. Only disqualification is that they do not accept God as Supreme and His instruction is... Dr. Patel: He may be accepting God as Supreme, but not (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: That is their imagination. God is canvassing, "Yes, I am here." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. "Why don't you think that I am the Supreme?" But these rascals will never believe it. And still they'll write Gītā*-pravacana. Very dangerous. Gītā is spoken by God. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Some portion. He wanted to prove himself that he is Puruṣottama. Dr. Patel: He's not Puruṣottama. He does not say that. Puruṣottama is really reality in true sense and... Prabhupāda: But his disciples say he is more than Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Disciples..., disciples... Prabhupāda: That means why he has created such nonsense? If the disciples say something wrong, then that means he is also wrong. These people will never say that "Our Guru Mahārāja is more than Kṛṣṇa." They are not so nonsense. They will say "My Guru Mahārāja is servant of Kṛṣṇa and I am his servant." Dr. Patel: He has said Puruṣottama is svarūpa. It cannot be a... Anything which is infinite cannot be grasped by finite senses. That's what he said. Prabhupāda: This is going on. But disciples say that Aurobindo is more than... This is their knowledge. Girirāja: That means he's failed as a guru. He hasn't... Prabhupāda: He could not give them right knowledge. Phalena paricīyate. The paricīya is to be understood by the result. The disciple is the result. If they are so fool, then what is the guru? *Dr. Patel: Vaiṣṇava*-paramparā, Vallabhācārya, the whole lot is now. I have seen it. Prabhupāda: They are criticizing us. *Dr. Patel: This thing is the God has to reincarnate Himself again to reestablish bhāgavata*-dharma. Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. If you don't mind, your Swami Nārāyaṇa is also like that. Dr. Patel: All of them. They are. That is why, I mean, liberation is created by God again by incarnation. Prabhupāda: They create a cheap God. Real God they reject. That is going on. Dr. Patel: Swami Nārāyaṇa said that (Sanskrit). Only to worship Kṛṣṇa. Nobody else. Unfortunately the disciples... Suppose disciples... Prabhupāda: That the same thing. If the disciples are rascals, then what is the guru? *Dr. Patel: The disciple is being called guru*-Kṛṣṇa again. That is what happens in all the other Vaiṣṇava. They say Vallabhācārya Mahāprabhu in place of Kṛṣṇa. That is wrong. Yathā. Yathā deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā... Prabhupāda: Gurau. Dr. Patel: Gurau. That is fact. Then you can get the real, I mean, kṛpā of guru and realize God. But they're... Prabhupāda: These things happened by Vallabhācārya. That's a long history generally. They call him Mahāprabhu to make competition with real Mahāprabhu, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Dr. Patel: Vallabhācārya was disciple of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Prabhupāda: Not disciple. Very admirer. But when He criticized strongly on account of his attacking Śrīdhara Svāmī... Dr. Patel: Caitanya Mahāprabhu differs in philosophy from Vallabhācārya. He did. Prabhupāda: Yes. But they were friend, Vallabhācārya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So he wanted to present his (indistinct) *Gītā* to Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that "You'll find better than Śrīdhara Svāmī." Dr. Patel: That is the highest Prabhupāda: So He became very dissatisfied. He... Because friendly, He said that "If you don't accept svāmī, then you are a veśya." These words He recited, svāmī nā māne yei jana veśyāra. These are there, these words. Dr. Patel: Vallabhācārya's establishment of his own family members as the paramparā is wrong. That is why the whole system has degraded. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not śiṣya*-paramparā. *Dr. Patel: Śiṣya*-paramparā is the right... The same thing is happening in Swami Nārāyaṇa's. They have degraded. Because Swami Nārāyaṇa actually put his two nephews as ācārya. That was wrong. In South with Rāmānujācārya, they have got a śiṣya-paramparā. But they have also degenerated. Prabhupāda: No... Sons also may become śiṣya provided he's qualified. Otherwise not. *Dr. Patel: (indistinct) the real fellow. Real. They this śiṣya*-paramparā in two... Prabhupāda: Śiṣyān ca putrān ca. There is no difference. But not because he is śiṣya of such person or putra of such person. Not like that. Either śiṣya or putra. Dr. Patel: The guru-śiṣya is as good as putra. More than a putra. To a real guru the śiṣya is more than a putra. Prabhupāda: For guru there is no difference. But the real thing is qualification. That gotra, our gotra, that is applicable to the śiṣya and to the putra. *Dr. Patel: That is in śiṣya*-paramparā they have got that... Gautama. *Prabhupāda: Gotra... Just like gotra, Kasya*-gotra.(?) This gotra means this family, either śiṣya or putra. Just like Gautama-gotra, there are many brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas. So those who are brāhmaṇas, it means putras and those who are kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, they are śiṣyas. But the gotra is the same. So we shall go down. (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 4, 1977, Bombay Prabhupāda: That should be stressed. First business is the neighboring village people, they should come, chant and take prasāda. And gradually, when they become interested, then they come, live with us, work with us. In this way they should be induced, bare living and chanting. Jagadīśa: As in Hyderabad. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then our movement is success. Our only motive is how people become interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have no other motive. No economic problem... Economic problem is... What is economic problem? We produce our own food and cloth, barely, and spiritual life... On the farm it is easier. And if they are dispatched to the city for livelihood, there are big, big roads and big, big cars and big, big anxieties. Then wine, meat, and so on, so on..., suicide, their spiritual life finished. These rascals are protesting. They have no ideas of spiritual life. They think this is life, to be merry, enjoy and drink. "Eat. Drink. Be merry." How they are committing suicide, they do not know. Nature's law is very stringent. They are foolish rascal. There is no education for them. Still, if we try, many men will be saved. So write very elaborately how to do this. Increase. And in your country, we increase this farm project any unlimited number... So much land is lying vacant. We can utilize the wood for constructing residences. And as soon as the jungle is clear, we can utilize it for growing food and keeping cows, as exactly they are doing in New Vrindaban. The cows are very happy. In our original New Vrindaban... What you have named it? Jagadīśa: The original farm? I think they still call that New Vrindaban. Prabhupāda: No, New Vrindaban, whole thing. That is called Bahulaban or something like that? So the cows are free moving. They're very happy. You have seen it? Jagadīśa: The original farm I haven't seen for some time. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Last time you were not... I had been there. The cows are moving freely. They're very friendly, even to the children, just like family members. Yes. Kṛṣṇa... You'll find in India one boy taking care of twenty*-five cows. Jagadīśa: With just a stick. *Prabhupāda: Yes, with a stick. (chuckles) They are so submissive. The cow is going this side, "Raa*-raa!"-immediately. (Jagadīśa laughs) When in Bible they say, "The animal is given to the care of man," like that... There is. This is care of, not that "Because we care of, we shall kill them." What is this interpretation? How demonic this Western civilization. "Because Jesus Christ, the God, has given the animals to our care, therefore we shall kill and eat." Anyway, try to introduce a renovation of civilization. Therefore they are trying to oppose us. Now they are conscious about the movement, that "If it is allowed to increase, then our program will be finished. And young men are taking. They are not rejecting." That is their concern. They are concerned about their business and industry. If these young men are held up in plain living, then where their industry...? Industry means to exploit the work of others and give them one dollar and make profit ten dollars. This is industry, at the cost of others some capitalist gaining huge profit. This is industry. "And let them live in a hellish condition, go to hell. Never mind. You work in the factory, and we make profit." The Communist is trying to take over the industry and get the whole profit. (laughs) That's all. The condition remains the same-hellish. But... What is called...? Complacent, he's satisfied that "I am getting the profit." All foolish. The Iran is also imitating European method of exploiting. They're bringing men from village. In India also, British period, they used to, that, but Indian people are little clever. They would come from the village to the city alone, not with family. They earn money and send to the family. And whenever they like, they go away. They're not dependent. And if you bring family, you have to work. That system is still going on. The village men, they come but they do not bring their family. Family remains in the village. He earns, he lives some way or other and sends money there, and the wife who is intelligent. He (she) accumulates the money and when there is enough money he (she) purchases land, investment. So... In after few years, when they have got enough land, they do not come back. They produce their own necessities. Very nice. Hare Kṛṣṇa. As soon as they are self-sufficient from the land they no more work. That's a good idea. Remain in the village with family. *Trivikrama: So I'm enthusiastic to do this assignment with Caitya*-guru. But one difficulty is the men that are behind in Taiwan and Hong Kong, there's only three men, or two men actually. And... Prabhupāda: No local man is coming? Trivikrama: Well, one local American, he's helping. But no Chinese. They're not interested. We tried to present a nice program. We did kīrtanas. I'm a little disappointed, but... But still, this program can go on. We can sell books. But one thing... Prabhupāda: No, selling books is our propaganda. That is very good program. Trivikrama: One thing... As far as being... We're shorthanded because I'm going to be coming back to India. I was thinking that because you instructed Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami to help me by sending two men... But actually he never really sent two men. Prabhupāda: If there is no men, how can he do? Trivikrama: But there's so many men now in New York. Now it's January. There's no more big book distribution, plus they're recruiting so many men. Prabhupāda: So why they are not? It is simply lack of management. If there is no sufficient work, some men can go. Write. He is also GBC. Men should be equally distributed. Devotees: Jaya. (offer obeisances) (end) *Letter to Russian-*-January 5, 1977, Bombay Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, of course if the Russians... Prabhupāda: You can reprint this for distribution here, Russian ships. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The only danger to this will be that if the Russian government finds out that we are translating Russian literature, because hearing "propaganda,"*-this is what the Christians do-then they will crack down very hard on our disciples there. Prabhupāda: Where is my disciple there? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, only a few you have, Ananta-śānti. And they won't let us go there at all in the future. Prabhupāda: That doesn't mean we shall not do that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Then they will think... Prabhupāda: They'll think. It is. Why shall I not do it? All thinking actually. We must do it. So where is that card? Bring it. I shall dictate. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That card? Prabhupāda: Your card is... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's on my side. You don't want the card, do you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: Yes. He wants to see it. Prabhupāda: It is addressed to you? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I'll show it to you. It just says, "Happy New Year." That's all. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Still, we have to reply them with this copy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, very good. So I should take a dictation? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Prabhupāda: Who has signed that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's from Mr. Yekinow. I had met him in Moscow. He's now in Delhi with the Russian Prabhupāda: What he is? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is a chief of the Russian agency that imports books into Russia. Prabhupāda: Well, so address him. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "Dear Mr. Yekinow." Prabhupāda: So it has come from Delhi? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So give the Delhi address, embassy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I have told them that we don't have any Bhaktivedanta Book Trust offices in Bombay because I did not want them to visit our... I told them our Bhaktivedanta Book Trust office is in Bombay, because then he would have said, "I'll come and visit you in your office" and then he would have come to the temple. So we don't want to show any connection with ISKCON for Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Prabhupāda: Why? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because then they'll find out it's religion and they will stop it at once. Prabhupāda: As soon as he reads the book, he will find, according to them... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, what I told the Russians was that ISKCON buys all the books from Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Prabhupāda: Just keep that position. What is...? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I mean we have to keep it... Prabhupāda: But we have got pictures of God, and with every page there is Kṛṣṇa, and how you can hide it? That is another foolishness. Every page, there is Kṛṣṇa, and there is nothing but Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But by the time they find out, we are already in the country. For example, if I would have told them about ISKCON before, when I was applying for my visa... Prabhupāda: No, no... Anyway they may find, early or later, but how you can stop them finding? It is simply impossible.(?) Hari-śauri: Anyway, they expect that something coming from India is going to have something to do with God. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We are saying... What I said is Bhaktivedanta Book Trust is dedicated to publishing books on ancient Indian culture. Prabhupāda: You say like that... Whatever you like, you can say, but when they read the book it is simply... Jagadīśa: Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. That's all. (chuckles) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but the scholars, the Russian scholars, know... [break] Prabhupāda: They have published their photograph in the paper. They take it, whatever... But the things are already there. So "Dear Mr. such and such, I thank you very much for your greetings card received recently. This cultural movement is depending in future on Russian intelligence and Indian culture. On this cultural movement, recently our Stockholm center has published one book..." What it is written here? Jagadīśa: *Easy Journey to Other Planets*. Prabhupāda: In Russian language? Jagadīśa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: "*Easy Journey to Other Planets*. So this is a different culture, how to go to other planetary system, how to transfer the soul from one body to another. In other planets there are also living entities. One can transfer himself, after giving up this body, to anywhere he likes without any help of the sputnik, and without the help of the sputnik or any flying machine. This is the mystic system unknown to the world, but it is authorized in the *Vedas*, original culture of the human civilization." Hari-śauri: It's on the tape. I'm recording it too. Prabhupāda: So, "A preliminary booklet is presented herewith to your good self. Kindly read it carefully and let me know your reaction. We are prepared to answer all intricate questions in this subject." In this way present. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fine. I have made a lot of friends in Russia. I was going to send them. Only problem... Actually, I'll tell you what's happening with my correspondence with Russia. The Russian spying agency is so strong, they're not letting my letters get through, because... Prabhupāda: Then don't send. What is the use of sending? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Actually what I was thinking of was, in my letters... Prabhupāda: First of all see one man. Test. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was going to mention to him in my letter that I'm surprised how I'm not getting replies to my letters from the people I visited in Russia. Prabhupāda: Why? Why you should inquire from him? If you know that there is difficulty, why should you inquire? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he can then have his Moscow address office get me the replies. Prabhupāda: Why? Why you are anxious to get their reply? Their country is like that. Why...? Yes. Why should you bother and strain your brain unnecessarily? You should know they are all rascals. That's all. But here we get an opportunity. You can write, present it to... Where is the other book? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. So I can take one. And I can order some more from Stockholm and send them to these people as gift. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, they can send directly. They can write under instruction. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. That's okay. I got a letter from Rajiv Gupta today. Prabhupāda: I read that letter. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I told him to do the *Gītā* because he was very, very anxious, and I found that he was the most enthusiastic. So he's already completed... He promises me by February it will be completed. Prabhupāda: If he's enthusiastic, let him do. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He knew that we gave to Dr. Poliwal so he said, "I will do it. Don't let her do it." So at the present moment three people are doing the *Gītā*. There's another professor in Lucknow who I told to do also. We don't know whose will be perfect. But I think Rajiv is most enthusiastic to do it. I think Poliwal's will be little slow. And then we can see whose Hindi was the best. Prabhupāda: That you do not know very much. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I was going to present it to some scholar and then to you. This man I brought today, that assistant editor, I think he will help. I can gradually give him work, and he's in Bombay. His Hindi is very good. He's assistant editor, so... Prabhupāda: So you do that. Get the help of composition and monotype. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is the biggest... The *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* I gave for composing four months ago, and still they're going so slow. *Prabhupāda: The hand set*-up is not...? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but in Delhi I could not find any. The only one in Delhi who has mono is Times of India, and it's very difficult to get it done. So I had no alternative. Prabhupāda: In Calcutta there are many. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I found out that in Allahabad there are a lot for Hindi. But then we had to have somebody over there. Prabhupāda: Allahabad. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, one devotee or someone who will supervise that. I suspect Bombay will be much more expensive, but I want to check. Tomorrow I'll check it. Prabhupāda: Allahabad, we are going. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But right now is Kumbhamela in Allahabad, everything's going to be in so much rush, it's going to be hard to do any business. Prabhupāda: No, businessmen are there all right. I was doing that business. So in my shop they..., visitors used to come there. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That shop. (pause) Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning Rāmeśvara Mahārāja and Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja spoke to me. Prabhupāda: I have heard that. That's good idea. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's good idea? So Hṛdayānanda Swami and Kīrtanānanda Swami are going to Africa. And on the 9th they told me to send a telegram signed by you saying you are sick and you want Brahmānanda to come immediately. So then Kīrtanānanda Swami will personally bring Brahmānanda Swami to India. But they want him to become your permanent secretary again. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You have no objection. Okay. And Hṛdayānanda Swami is ready to manage Africa till the festival. Prabhupāda: He was experienced, Brahmānanda, in Africa. Where is that Cyavana? He is gone? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Cyavana? Jagadīśa: He is a big mess. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Cyavana? Cyavana Swami? [break] I think they're going to have war in Africa pretty soon. They're going to have war. Prabhupāda: War. Civil war? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, between... Not where Kenya is but between Rhodesia and Zambia, in that area. Hari-śauri: Whites and blacks. Prabhupāda: That is inevitable. The whites cannot... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Rhodesia has rejected... Prabhupāda: ...cannot kill them, repress any more. That is not possible. The other blacks will join. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And it appears that even President Carter of America is more soft on the blacks now. He is more sympathetic. So if they get American support... Prabhupāda: Nowadays you cannot be a suppressor of any particular foreigner. That is not possible. Jagadīśa: Except the religious community. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will suffer, both of them, because this is not civilization. This is assembly of dogs. So there trouble must be there. You cannot keep the dogs peaceful. That is my final... If you keep them animals, how you can expect...? Jagadīśa: That's not only between nation to nation. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Everywhere. If the men are kept as animals, you cannot expect them peaceful citizens. That is not possible. The fighting will go on on one plea or another. You cannot stop. (pause) Was it...? You give...? Pālikā? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Mahārāja got the income tax today. The income tax also... And our auditor... Their interpretation of the law is so rigid, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We have to say so many lies. For example... Prabhupāda: That you may not bother about, for... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: So you can make idli? What is called? Is it called? Pālikā: Tonight? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pālikā: No. Because I have to grind... It has to soak, then I have to grind it. Then it has to sit for six or eight hours. I can prepare it now for tomorrow night. Prabhupāda: All right, for tomorrow night. Pālikā: Anything else you would like tonight? Prabhupāda: No. I wanted to take that idli, one or two cakes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So Prabhupāda, I can go to Santa Cruz and get you very nice idlis. They have a very nice Madras cafe there. Prabhupāda: I think some of our men, they make. Mr. Mennon? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, his wife is sick. So I don't know if he would make it right away. You want to eat it right away, tonight, isn't it? There's a nice Madras cafe near Santa Cruz station on Willard Furrough.(?) I can go and get you from there. Prabhupāda: If you can get, bring. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Should I bring that coconut chutney also? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is essential. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I'll bring about six or eight. Prabhupāda: You can bring. I'll take, utmost, one or two. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I'll go and bring it now. Prabhupāda: So I have decided to construct a temple in Bhuvaneśvara. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You have? Okay. *Prabhupāda: The condition is that I'll invest money for Oriya language books, and you'll sell*-half the collection for temple, and half the collection for printing again, the same principle. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They won't be able to collect one crore by selling books. Prabhupāda: No, no, if they can, I have no objection. I can give them ten crores. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they'll never be able to... Prabhupāda: No, that you cannot say. It is all in the hands of Kṛṣṇa. Not one crore. Say a few lakhs. He's ready to go town to town, village, in Orissa. He wants that in my absence somebody must be there to look after the construction. That is quite reasonable. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, definitely. Prabhupāda: So I have told them "Any amount I can invest. You print book and sell." That is my open secret. Print books, and distribute, and spend half in whichever life you do and half, again print books. That is my ambition (vision?). I want to see our philosophy is widely spread by different literatures. That I want to do. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That will be very good. There are a few people here, like Vijeta, who is Saurabha's assistant, he could probably go to Bhuvaneśvara and supervise the construction. Prabhupāda: Yes. So arrange. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are too many people here. We don't need that many in Bombay for the Bombay construction. Prabhupāda: So let him come to Bhuvaneśvara. I am going after Kumbhamela. And begin the work immediately. We have got one gentleman, professor. He is good learned scholar. I can engage him for translating. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oriya. Very nice. Prabhupāda: He has writing... That machine... I can see the manuscript. In this way, arrangement make. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. We just printed two books in Oriya, Topmost Yoga and one more. One more. Prabhupāda: He likes Oriya language. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? Gaura*-Govinda Swami? He is very sincere devotee. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, undoubtedly. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very sincere. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa sent him. He... In Vṛndāvana, he said that "Please give me shelter." I thought that "There are so many Indian comes and go." So when he insisted, "All right, you stay." Hari-śauri: Yeah. He took sannyāsa at the opening of the temple. I remember that. Prabhupāda: He's a good boy. Hari-śauri: He's stuck it out for a long time in Orissa. He's been there a long time, by himself a lot of the time too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He's organizing nicely. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's very sincere. He follows all the regulations very rigidly. He gets up in the morning, ideal example. Jagadīśa: He understands the philosophy quite well. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And he is educated. He is B.Sc. He knows Hindi also. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He worked on Hindi translation for some time. Prabhupāda: Where is that Hindi typewriter? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I never saw that typewriter. *Prabhupāda: Ask Yaśodānandana, Yaśomatī*-nandana, immediately. You ask him for my brāhmaṇa... Yes. So very steadily do everything. Opposition will come. We have to face. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So I'll arrange for your idlis, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Idlis and if dosa... Dosa? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. There's two types of dosas. One is masalā; one is sada. Masalā has got potatoes inside. Prabhupāda: Potatoes? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, inside. What they do is... Inside it's like... Prabhupāda: Which one is better? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sada is without. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sada? Or I'll get masalā if there are no onions in it. Sometimes they put onions. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If there's no onions, I'll get one masalā also. Okay. Prabhupāda: (japa) Except in few provinces, everyone eats onion, all over the world. And garlic. In Western countries I think onion and garlic, cent percent they eat. Hari-śauri: Not so much garlic but onion anyway. Onions they love, big ones. Prabhupāda: (japa) Sell books and this principle follow: half construct temple, half print books. That's it. No income tax. "We have spent everything. That's all." (japa) In Vṛndāvana, he was suggesting, that Set, Setterji, that "You make some will. Otherwise, after your... In your absence the government will..." And I'll not keep a single farthing. I shall spend all before I die. (chuckles) Invest in book, that's all. I am insisting on this. But I am simply afraid if we have got enough stock, it may not be stolen and misused. Otherwise I want to immediately invest in books all the money that I have got. Hari-śauri: I don't think there'll be any problem there. Prabhupāda: So arrange like that. We want. Then I'll print all books, keep in stock. Never mind. Why use the bank? Hari-śauri: Rāmeśvara's coming soon. I can... Prabhupāda: Hm. Keep in stock. It will be sold. There is no doubt. Hari-śauri: And now we have so many different languages coming out. Prabhupāda: Yes. And here, if we make closet or on the wall. We can keep anywhere, all the verandas, all these rooms, four walls, keeping books, book stock. Make vigorous propaganda by advertising, "Read Hare Kṛṣṇa literature. Hare Kṛṣṇa is wonderful." In this way advertise. Hindi, English, Bengali. I can give suggestion; you do it. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... We are getting paper now, government paper. Money is there. Now we have to print very intelligently, and even it is not immediately sold, we can keep stock. (pause) [break] "Cultivate seriously spiritual life. Welcome. Come here. Live with us. We have got enough place." They want that sense gratification in the old age, when the senses are no more capable, still. (end) *Roof Conversation-*-January 5, 1977, Bombay Prabhupāda: Unless you are convinced, you cannot convince others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. And to save them is paropakāra, real welfare activity. [break] Trivikrama: ...andhā to be saved. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But our duty is to try. [break] Devotee (1): ...according to an official in the Central Railway. Prabhupāda: So how many tickets we have got? *Devotee (1): We've got twenty tickets for the devotees in second*-class, plus two for yourself and Hari-śauri in first-class. Mr. Gupta: Well it's not the consideration of tickets, it's just on the midnight of 31st and 1st. When I was very disturbed, I just got into the train for a drive, being a railway man, and there was just some intuition that I came here and I had your darśana. Prabhupāda: When you came? Mr. Gupta: On the 3lst and lst. On the lst morning. And from that I... As happens to be, I've been coming every day. Prabhupāda: Very good. Mr. Gupta: On the 2nd you were kind enough to autograph the *Gītā*... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes, I remember. Mr. Gupta: ...which I purchased from here. *Prabhupāda: You are reading Bhagavad*-gītā? Mr. Gupta: I not started reading that one. I'm reading the Śrī... Īśo... Prabhupāda: *Īśopaniṣad*. Mr. Gupta: *Īśopaniṣad*. I read the other *Gītā*. But after I finish this, then I'll start your edition. I have read *Gītā*, the ordinary one from Gita Press, Gorakphur. I've read Dr. Radhakrishna in portion, Dr. Rajagopalacarya. I hope to gain something more. Prabhupāda: The difference between other Gītās and our *Gītā*... We therefore said, "As It Is." No interpretation. That is the disaster. Authority, Kṛṣṇa, and to interpret on His word, this is very disastrous. Mr. Gupta: Lord Kṛṣṇa has been good to me right from my childhood. I was brought up in a good religious family. I have always been able to have my way. I think that's what's wrong. I get very strong desires, likes, dislikes. I have been successful, very, very successful, in material sense, in work. I want to... Doesn't leave me with peace. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is your full name? Mr. Gupta: Rabindranath Gupta. I'm not a Bengali. I belong to Delhi. I've lived eight years in Bengal, Citra and then Durgapur. Prabhupāda: Oh. So you can speak in Bengali. Mr. Gupta: I can understand (exchange few words in Bengali). Prabhupāda: Bengali is not at all very difficult. Mr. Gupta: No, not at all. Once upon a time I could read and write. But it's just out of touch. Prabhupāda: The Calcutta Marwaris, they speak very fluently. Yes. *Mr. Gupta: Fluently. Being in railways I've had about eight cross*-country transfers. Rajkot, Ajmer, Bombay, Ahmedabad, Lohar(?). So I know as much of Gujarati and Marwari too. Prabhupāda: Rajastani? Mr. Gupta: Rajastani. Hindi is the mother tongue for Rajastani. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Hindi is understood everywhere. [break] ...Bhagavad*-gītā, what you have learned? Mr. Gupta: The only thing that I have been able to learn is we... I was told so, quite.(?) By keeping our mind and heart strict, we should do our work as belonging to best āśrama as best as possible. But the human beings tend to twist "as best as possible" in their own way. And that... When the realization comes... [break] *Prabhupāda: Do you realize that the modern civilization is misguided? [break] ...is the quintessence of Bhagavad*-gītā. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. Glāniḥ. The people are misguided. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. He's Dr. Patel. He's Mr. Gupta, a railway officer. He arranged for our tickets. Dr. Patel: You are going by plane or by car? Prabhupāda: Train. Dr. Patel: You are going also by train? It will be too much strain. *Prabhupāda: No, first*-class is all right. *Dr. Patel: Even first*-class. Because it takes more than thirty-six hours to reach... *Prabhupāda: No, twenty*-four hours. Dr. Patel: ...by car, by Calcutta from here, no? Or Kashi Express. *Mr. Gupta: Yes, sir. Twenty*-four hours. Dr. Patel: Kashi Express? Mr. Gupta: Kashi Express. Kashi Express reaches in the morning just at one... Dr. Patel: I had gone by Kashi Express. It reached... From here it starts in the evening, and there it reaches Allahabad in the evening. Mr. Gupta: That is Allahabad Mail. That's Calcutta Mail. Kashi Express leaves at 6:45 in the morning with other and reaches at the same time next morning. Prabhupāda: So we have to get the train from Dadar. Mr. Gupta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Dadar is nearer. Dr. Patel: It must be stopping at Thana also. No? Mr. Gupta: We had the option of going either on 10th night or 11th morning. But we preferred 11th morning for the same reason. Prabhupāda: 10th night means? Mr. Gupta: By Calcutta Mail, or there's a special leaving for Allahabad. There's a special train. We are running Kumbhamela specials. Prabhupāda: This one. Mr. Gupta: This one is a regular train. This is Varanasi Express. *Dr. Patel: A special must not have first*-class. Has it? *Mr. Gupta: Special has first*-class. Dr. Patel: That special will be better than. Mr. Gupta: No, it won't be because it leaves on 10th night and it will only go to Naini. It won't go to Allahabad. Dr. Patel: Isn't it faster... Prabhupāda: And it changes. You have to change again. From Naini you have to change. Mr. Gupta: You see, the Central Railway, we are taking people only to Naini and back. We are moving about a million passengers from this area. Prabhupāda: From Naini they are going to the Kumbhamela. Mr. Gupta: Naini, yes. It's a triangle. So from Naini they will go to Kumbhamela, come back to Naini, and come back this side. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That's nice. Dr. Patel: How far Naini is from Allahabad? Mr. Gupta: Naini, railway stationwise is five miles from Allahabad, but people want to go to Sangamner just at the bridge at the bank of the river... [break] Prabhupāda: It is not far away from the Sam... It is nearer. Rather, Allahabad main station is far away. Mr. Gupta: You see, the way railways have organized it, Eastern Railway will... Prabhupāda: So Naini, you are crossing the river or this side of the river? *Mr. Gupta: By special, we will not cross the river. By through*-going trains, we will cross the river. Dr. Patel: If you cross the river, then you go to Allahabad main station. Mr. Gupta: So Varanasi Express will go to main station. That special would not have gone to main station. It would have caused you inconvenience. Prabhupāda: So they will receive from Allahabad station our men? Dr. Patel: You have to tell them to... Hari-śauri: We'll have to telegram to Gurudāsa to tell when we're coming. Dr. Patel: There will be huge, I mean, traffic blocking and all those things. No? [break] Prabhupāda: Fifty years before, when I was in Allahabad, 1920's, there was Kumbhamela. Then forty lakhs people came, fifty years ago. Dr. Patel: With poor transport then. That transport was not so efficient as it is today, no? More trains and more... Prabhupāda: No, the Bombay Mail was there, and I think this Kashi Express was not there. Dr. Patel: Kashi Express is a new. Prabhupāda: Not very new. That is also not very... Mr. Gupta: About fifteen years old. Prabhupāda: Fifteen years. Dr. Patel: Kashi Express goes to Allahabad and comes back to Benares. I have gone by that train. Mr. Gupta: Actually Kashi Express was introduced before last Kumbhamela. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, Kashi Express goes to Allahabad; then, from Allahabad, there is a straight line from Benares, to Benares. Then it goes to Mugger(?) side. Kashi Express, it goes up to Kashi or not? Mr. Gupta: Up to Kashi. Dr. Patel: And how long are you going to stay there, sir? Prabhupāda: As long as Muratdev... (?) Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, I'm not going to stay... Dr. Patel: It is very cold, huh? There will be extreme cold this season. And to take bath in confluence in this biting cold of this cold water. Prabhupāda: Sometimes I was taking. Dr. Patel: You should take warm water bath. Prabhupāda: In 1925 I was taking. I was touching the water, and it was cutting. Dr. Patel: Even my... It was cutting too much. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) And as soon as I take a dip, everything is warm. Dr. Patel: No, but for now it is not right. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. Trivikrama: Everything is numb. Prabhupāda: And immediately warm. As you take... Trivikrama: Warm. Dr. Patel: That is all the place, yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So long as you do not take dip, it is so pinching, it is cutting your body. And as soon as you get a dip, one, two, three*-bas. Immediately you are warm. Dr. Patel: No, but now, at this age of your... Prabhupāda: No, now... Dr. Patel: You should warm the water and take water from confluence, bring in the tent, warm it up and take a bath. Or you get a pot of water here and daily put two drops in the bucket and take bath (laughs). My wife was doing this. She used to put two drops of Gaṅgā water... Prabhupāda: Now, if I take such dip I may be paralyzed. Mr. Gupta: Oh, yes. One man had actually died in Kashi Benares by dipping in the Gaṅgā. The water in Gaṅgā is very cold even in summer, sir, huh? Summer also is... Prabhupāda: Almost. Because it is coming directly from Himalaya. Up to Prayāga, pure, no mixture. And then Yamunā... Dr. Patel: And Gaṅgā mix together. Prabhupāda: Mix together. They say Sarasvatī also. Dr. Patel: Sarasvatī is the subterranean river. They call Sarasvatī everywhere. "Hindu mythological river." Trivikrama: Mythological? Dr. Patel: Yes, it is mythological. It is all subterranean water. Here's Sarasvatī. You got Sarasvatī in Gujarat also. Prabhupāda: No, there is Sarasvatī Dr. Patel: You get Sarasvatī in Maharastra also, everywhere. (laughs) Trivikrama: This is Dr. Patel. I heard him speaking two years ago because a tape came. At the time you were, you and Dr. Patel, you were having very heated conversations. But now I see he is subdued. (chuckles) Dr. Patel: In these two years I have made an extensive study of the Vaiṣṇava cult, all the three branches of main Vaiṣṇavas, and I think, I think, sir, that... I have studied Śaṅkara also extensively, and I think Śaṅkara is misunderstood very much. That is our opinion. Prabhupāda: No, no, not misunderstood. He made himself misunderstood. Dr. Patel: But they all misunderstand the real purport of his... *Prabhupāda: Māyāvādam asac... He has to preach this Māyāvāda. He has to present himself in that way. Otherwise he is Vaiṣṇava. Māyāvādam asac*-chāstraṁ pracchannaṁ bauddham ucyate. Dr. Patel: Pracchannam Buddha, Śaṅkarācārya. *Prabhupāda: Mayaiva vihitaṁ devi kalau brāhmaṇa*-mūrtinā. [break] *Dr. Patel: The most important group in all Vaiṣṇavas. Vaiṣṇava*-bhakti-sat-saṅga anyathā yānti vido apy adhaḥ.(?) Even well-versed man will come down if he does not understand. All the branches of Vaiṣṇavism, they give the same comment. *Prabhupāda: Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ [SB 3.25.25]. Without sat-saṅga, nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. Dr. Patel: Swami Nārāyaṇa has mentioned this such, Prabhupāda: They are not followers. If they do not follow their guru, then what kind of follower...? Dr. Patel: Same with the Vallabhācārya's followers. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Unless guru trains the disciple rightly, there will be difficulty. Dr. Patel: Their chief belief is that God comes in the form of the guru, and so guru should be worshiped as God even after his death. God comes in the form of guru... Prabhupāda: And kick out God. And kick out God. Dr. Patel: That is the thing. "God comes in the form of guru" is all right. So yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau [ŚU 6.23]. Otherwise you cannot get... Prabhupāda: Guru is manifestation of God, but that does not mean we kick out God. Dr. Patel: They are kicking out. And this fellow, this Ganeshpuri, they are worshiping that statue of their guru only. Mr. Gupta: That's a common statement also. Guru govindam kare kake lage pau balihare guru apnau govindiya pathai.(?) I think that's the gist of the guru and Bhagavān. Dr. Patel: Those people who consider guru in the place of God during his, I mean, imparting of knowledge to you... Otherwise you won't get the knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Without guru we cannot approach God. That does not mean you shall reject... Dr. Patel: Guru's guru. *Prabhupāda: Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. Trivikrama: Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. [break] Dr. Patel: Tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ prakāśante mahātmanaḥ. Mahātmā is the guru. *Prabhupāda: Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. "By guru's mercy and Kṛṣṇa's mercy, one can enter into bhakti-mārga." Without guru's mercy you cannot do, and without Kṛṣṇa's mercy also you cannot do. Kṛṣṇa is situated within your heart, and if you are sincere, Kṛṣṇa will give you the right guru. And then, by guru's mercy, you'll understand Kṛṣṇa. This is the process. Indian (1): All hours... 'Cause passion will come you, when at times of anger gets temporarily the better of you, what is the guidance which can bring you back to normality? Because in anger you can do a lot of things. Because you lose, spontaneously you lose your temper. Though it can be for the good... *Prabhupāda: When you can conquer over your anger, then you become gosvāmī. Vāco vegaṁ krodha*-vegam. Krodha-vegam. Mānasa-vegam udara-vegam upastha-vegam, etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt [NoI 1]. A guru... One cannot become guru who has no control over these things: vāco vegam, the urge of speaking nonsense. Vāco vegam. Krodha-vegam, the urge of anger. Mānasa-vegam, urge of mind. Udara-vegam, urge of the belly. Upastha-vegam, urge of the genital. In this way, all the six vegas, one who can control, he is fit for becoming guru. Dr. Patel: Kāma, krodha, and lobha. It can be only one... If you have, you understand the greatness of God and your mind perpetually in the sacred feet of God, then you don't have this kāma, krodha and lobha. That is what other ācāryas also say. *Prabhupāda: Vāco vegaṁ krodha*-vegam udara-vegaṁ mānasa-vegam, etān vegān. The six vegas, one who can control, he is gosvāmī. Svāmī means master, and go means indriyas. Dr. Patel: Kāma krodha lobha matsara. Moha. Six. Devotee (1): Gurujī, the problem which I am putting as a common man is... I am... Prabhupāda: It is not for the common man. Common man has to learn under the discipline of guru. You cannot expect all these things from a common man. When you actually control all these things then you are not common man. You are representative of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can preach Kṛṣṇa's philosophy. *Dr. Patel: There is one śloka, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa... [Bg. 18.66]. This is pāpa-kāma, krodha and lobha. He will relieve you from that pāpa if you completely surrender. *Prabhupāda: Pāpa, everything... In the material world, whatever you do, that is pāpa. In the material world, "This is pāpa, this is puṇya"*-this is mental concoction. Everything is pāpa. Dvaite bhadrābhadra sakali samāna. In the world of duality, material world, we have manufactured something-"This is good; *this is bad. This is moral, this is immoral"*-but Caitanya-caritāmṛta author said, "These are all mental concoction. Everything is the same, material." Material means bad. But we have made some convention-"This is good; this is bad; this is..." *Mr. Gupta: By God's grace I'm a very successful man. I'm youngest chief mechanical engineer on the Central Railway. I know kāma, krodha, lobha, moha*-all are, taken to extreme, it's pāpa. I know it. But when they overcome in the heat of the moment, they you're not able to retract yourself. It's only when... Dr. Patel: Then... Then... *Prabhupāda: No, let him. That you have to practice, how to use kāma, krodha. That is described by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Kṛṣṇa*-sevā kāmārpaṇe. Kāma means you have a strong desire to do something. That is kāma. So convert it, this kāma desire, for Kṛṣṇa's activities. Kṛṣṇa-sevā kāmārpaṇe. Krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. And persons who are envious of the devotees, you become angry upon them. You have got this quality, kāma, krodha, lobha, but you can utilize it. Just like Hanumān. He became very angry, and he set fire in the Lanka. Unless one is very angry, he cannot do that. But that krodha was applied to the demon. Krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. So we can utilize kāma, krodha, moha, bewilderment. When we cannot find out a bhakta, then we should be bewildered. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvam. So therefore bhakti process means that everything has to be purified. Krodha, Hanumān's krodha to set fire Laṅkā, it is purified krodha. But they cannot understand the krodha, how it is purified. But krodha can be purified. When it is bhakta-dveṣi-jane... Those who are envious of God and His devotees, upon them you should be always angry. "No, I have become a bhakta. I cannot become..." Caitanya Mahāprabhu showed by His example. He said, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. But when Nityānanda Prabhu was injured, He became so angry, He immediately said, "Bring my cakra. I shall kill the Jagāi-Mādhāi." So at that time He's not tṛṇād api sunīcena. That is krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. So we have this kāma, krodha, moha, everything, whatever sense activity we have got. When they are utilized for Kṛṣṇa, then it is purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Now there is fight... Just like political fight. In the political fight both the parties, they are trying to get supremacy of their own sense gratification. But here the fight, Rāma-Rāvaṇa..., Hanumān's krodha was not for himself. He did not want the Laṅkā kingdom. But because Rāmacandra wanted that "This man should be punished," he cooperated: "Yes." So this is spiritual. In this way, when we purify all our activities, all our sensual activities, then it is right. Otherwise... Just like Arjuna. He purified his senses. A Vaiṣṇava is naturally nonviolent, but in order to satisfy Kṛṣṇa he fought. That is purified. So we have to purify. Our activities cannot be stopped. That is not possible. Dr. Patel: All activities done for sake of Kṛṣṇa or God are the real... *Prabhupāda: Mad*-arthe. Mat-para. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogam... This is yoga. Yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. When you take shelter... But these Māyāvādīs... Where is mad-āśrayaḥ? "He is nirākāra." So there is no āśraya. So they cannot perform this yoga because there is no mad-āśrayaḥ. Āśraya loiyā bhaje kṛṣṇa tāre nāhi tyāge.(?) If one takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa and he works under His direction, then he's never forsaken or rejected by Him. He's always under the protection of Kṛṣṇa. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. So that should be our duty. We shall act only to the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Then our activities are purified, and then we are liberated. Trivikrama: That requires guru. *Prabhupāda: Unless guru, how you know? Guru is the representative of Kṛṣṇa. We cannot directly meet Kṛṣṇa at the present moment. So this is called vyavasāyātmikā buddhi. If we work under the direction of the representative of Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect. Guru*-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, āra nā koriho mane āśā **. You are singing daily. Whatever guru has said, take it seriously. Don't manufacture your ideas. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, āra nā koriho mane āśā **. Indian (1): Just as you have given an example of krodha by Lord Hanumān in burning Laṅkā, are there any such instances where lobha could also be personified Lord Kṛṣṇa's desire? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Oh, yes. Just like gopīs. They were always hankering: "When we shall see Kṛṣṇa? When we shall see Kṛṣṇa? When I shall...? When I shall meet?" Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda*-viraheṇa me. "Oh, I see everything vacant without Govinda." This is ecstasy of lobha, to meet Kṛṣṇa. So when you will be strongly hankering after Kṛṣṇa, lobha, greedy, or devotee, then lobha is properly utilized. Dr. Patel: When Kṛṣṇa disappeared from rasa, what they did? Prabhupāda: There are so many instances. You can utilize your hankering for Kṛṣṇa and His devotees. Trivikrama: There's one verse like that, ekalaṁ mūlyaṁ lobha... *Prabhupāda: Laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam. Laulyam, yes, right. That is greediness. Laulyam. The verse is by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He advises, kṛṣṇa*-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate: "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you purchase. If it is available somewhere, immediately purchase it." So the next question is, if you want to purchase something, you must pay the price. So therefore said that "The price is laulyam, greediness. How I shall become Kṛṣṇa conscious?" That is price. "How I shall?" Oh, that I can very easily. No. Na janma-koṭi-sukṛtair labhyate. "If one has done pious activities for many, many births, he also cannot have this greediness." It is so rare. But if you have got that greediness, you get Kṛṣṇa. Trivikrama: Intense greediness. *Prabhupāda: Intense greediness. So one may think, "Oh, I can be very greedy." So the answer is na janma*-koṭi-sukṛtair labhyate. Devotee (1): If a human being can try repeatedly, showing kāma, krodha, lobha, moha... He keeps on trying to get over it... Prabhupāda: That is negative side. Devotee (1): ...and again keeps on trying... *Prabhupāda: That is negative side. First of all... Just like mauna... [break] Why maunam? There is no need of maunam. You have to chant. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā. So there is negative side and positive side. One who has no information of the positive side, they simply take the negative side. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Jagan mithyā is all right, but where is that brahma satyam? That brahma satyam is here, when you are fully engaged in serving. Brahma satyam does not mean I simply make negative this, and there is no engagement. That brahma satyam will not endure. You'll fall down, because you are active. If you have no engagement, then you fall down again. Just like a child, he is engaged in playing always, but engage him in studying. If he gets little interest, then automatically he gives up playing. But if you simply stop playing, then he will become mad, because activity is there. These Māyāvādī philosophers, they do not know this. They simply take the negative thing*-this material engagement, zero, Buddha philosophy, nirvāṇa. And that nirvāṇa is another word, nirviśeṣa. That will not help us. There must be varieties and there must be positive life, and that is bhakti. So without bhakti you cannot stop your nonsense activities, neither... Dr. Patel: (Hindu) But even you get the same thing by (Hindi). So Vaiṣṇava cult is easier than getting the mind blank and then getting all in the... Because here your mind is engaged to Lord Himself. It is... We call as samādhi. Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. Just like a man is observing Ekādaśī, fasting. Another, in the hospital, he's also fasting. So these two fastings, they are different. Dr. Patel: Here fasting of all the senses and applying to God. Prabhupāda: For satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. And there compulsory fasting, but he has got desire. So paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. When you get better taste, when you stop this nonsense for better taste, that is positive. Artificially, if you do, it will not benefit. Dr. Patel: Ekādaśī, according to the *Purāṇas* and the stories, all the eleven senses should be withdrawn from their sense objects... Prabhupāda: No, Ekādaśī, that is automatically... By Ekādaśī is one of the process for... (Hindi) Indian (2): (Hindi) *Indian lady: May I ask one question? I'm running my own school in Hosharpur, and it starts to A*-class, and I want to convert it into gurukula. How I can make arrangements for the books and the examination or the students can take Welley(?) certificate and examination from recognized book? We should make something. Prabhupāda: Running on...? What is that school? *Indian lady: All kind of school, English*-speaking. Prabhupāda: But if you have to work under government regulation, then you cannot do it. You won't get government help. Indian lady: But I want to convert it into gurukula on the basis of Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Our gurukula means how to teach them to become self*-controlled. That is first business. This literary education secondary, grammar secondary. The first necessity is how to create them śānta, dānta, self-controlled. Indian lady: But we have got from Punjab Board and education board... Prabhupāda: And therefore I say, if you have to work under government control, it is very difficult. If you can work independently, then it is possible. Indian lady: It is independent. I'm independent. I'm doing everything. Prabhupāda: No, if you take government help... Indian lady: But the students go for examination in the board also. *Prabhupāda: Examination or no examination, if you, they practice the rules, that is sufficient examination. Suppose one of the items, that one has to rise early in the morning... So if one is rising early in the morning, then what is the examination? That is already examined. If one has to rise early in the morning, attend the maṅgala-ārati, sitting in the class and reading Bhagavad*-gītā, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa... These are all practical. There is no need of examination. If he is doing, then it is examination passed. Indian lady: But the parents want certificate. Prabhupāda: Therefore, if you want to satisfy the parents, the government, then it is not possible. You have to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Indian lady: They have to go in colleges. Prabhupāda: I know that. Therefore I said that if you have to satisfy so many masters, it is not possible. Dr. Patel: At the most she can give some sort of a cultural education along with those programs. Prabhupāda: What that cultural...? If he does not practice, what is that culture? It is practice. *Dr. Patel: Practice in Bhagavad*-gītā and practice..., in the subjects. Prabhupāda: What is the use? They will produce that, such blind leaders. *Dr. Patel: They will not produce so bad leaders perhaps. At least they will have a little better understanding than those fools who have no background of religion at all. Well, your schools, so*-called secularism, means no religion. Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to follow the śāstra. Then it will be possible. Brahmacārī gurukule... Indian lady: Christian has their own government schools everywhere. And we can have our own Kṛṣṇa consciousness school. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are having our own all over the world. We don't follow the government regulations Indian lady: The Christian... [break] Trivikrama: How about Dr. Patel? Dr. Patel: I am a fool. (laughs) He has called me. Devotee (2): Well, at least you realize that you're part of the fool, and we all are! We realize that. There's still some hope for... Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu also used to say that "I am a fool." Dr. Patel: So I am in a good company now. (laughs) I think so. Prabhupāda: Certainly. Certainly. Trivikrama: Everyone in a body means... Prabhupāda: Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana [Cc. Ādi 7.71]. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. A student should always remain to be chastised by guru. That is his right position. And as soon as he thinks that he has become more than his guru, then he'll be finished, his career. Trivikrama: Jumping over the head. *Prabhupāda: Just like our Nitāi. (chuckles) This is the difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu remained*-guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana: "My Guru Mahārāja has chastised Me because I am fool number one." Caitanya Mahāprabhu is fool? But He's showing the example that you should always remain... Dr. Patel: The avatāras shall behave like common men. Otherwise they will not be... All avatāras behave like common men. Prabhupāda: Our Guru Mahārāja, so strict... A little discrepancy, he would chastise like anything. But we liked it very much. Indian (3): Guru's chastise is the mercy. Prabhupāda: Śiṣyaṁ ca putraṁ ca tāḍayen na tu lālayet. That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. "The sons and disciples should always be chastised. Never pat them." Dr. Patel: Tāḍayet may be returned. Prabhupāda: Tāḍayet means taraṇa, chastisement. Indian (4): Actually we were so rapt, we wish to be beaten by your stick on our head. *Prabhupāda: Śiṣya, this word, very word, means voluntarily accepting the chastisement. This word, śiṣ, śās, śās*-dhātu... From śās-dhātu comes śāstra. Śastra means weapon. So weapon is meant for maintaining peace and order. And śāstra. Śāsana. These are the derivation from original root... Śiṣya. Śiṣya means who has voluntarily accepted to be chastised and ruled by the spiritual master. Dr. Patel: Śikṣā means instruction. So the one who takes the instruction in śiṣya. Śikṣā. Prabhupāda: To obey. Śiṣya means to obey, discipline. Dr. Patel: Live under the paternity of guru to learn. Prabhupāda: Yes, voluntarily giving him the right to rule over. Dr. Patel: All gurus are very severe taskmasters. A small thing, they turn away the śiṣya. Sometimes they used to... You hear stories that a boy was sent away with a cow and asked to come back when he had a thousand cows, becoming thousand,(?) and he automatically got all, all the knowledge. These are the type of gurus were there sometimes. Indian (3): I think the similes can be misunderstood also sometimes. *Dr. Patel: These are similes or metaphor*-we don't know, but that is a fact. Indian (3): Well, I don't think you or I, any of us, knows what is the fact. It's what's conveyed and interpreted to us that we know. Dr. Patel: That means you must have blind faith in guru. If a guru says that "You jump in the well," and you can jump in the well, then you get the goal. That is why that man went with ten cows and came back after twelve years making them thousand. Otherwise he becomes a cowherd. "What will I get knowledge by doing caros, gaus(?) in the jungle?" No. But if he has faith, faith... Prabhupāda: How much progress is being made? Girirāja: Tremendous. Trivikrama: That's what I was saying. I heard a tape two years ago, but I didn't... Prabhupāda: No, no. I mean to say this construction. Girirāja: Oh, I thought... Dr. Patel: You thought for me! (laughs) Girirāja: I thought he was improving. Well, the construction is, you know, going at the same rate. I spoke to the marble... There's two marble contractors. The one who's doing the floor, he's going very quickly. All the guestrooms are finished and half of the bathrooms are finished. The temple room is mostly finished. Main problem is the columns and arches. And it seems that that contractor has a bad reputation for taking money and then wasting time. Prabhupāda: Oh. He has taken money? Girirāja: It seems he has taken lot of money. Prabhupāda: Oh. Girirāja: On the plea that he needed it to get the work going. So, er... Prabhupāda: The same thing was done in Māyāpura. These cheaters, they take advance money, and then they do... Dr. Patel: The contractor of mine also did the same thing in my house. Give them advance... (Hindi) That's it. Prabhupāda: Then, what to do? Girirāja: Well, the floor man... (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 5, 1977, Bombay Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...article in... (Hindi) I was very much satisfied. New Vrindaban. Who wrote it? Somebody went there in my New Vrindaban. Indian man: I think Mr. Dvari. That I can find out. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) The people are misled. They do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. Artha-brāhmaṇa-paṇḍita [SB 7.5.31]. Pandiya means... Indian man: Yeah. brāhmaṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's from Benares. Prabhupāda: Pandiya means paṇḍita. Brāhmaṇa. (Hindi) Illiterate. Indian man: Actually if a man is literate but if there is no saṁskāra, I can't say he is better than... If saṁskāra is there and no education, then still I call he is better man. The man without saṁskāra is nothing. Prabhupāda: It is..., that brahmacārī means saṁskāra, to become satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñāna... Jñāna... You can have knowledge simply by hearing, not by reading books. Indian man: Yes, by reading and writing all these things. (Hindi) By hearing, knowledge by hearing. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It gave him rāja*-vidyā, which that Mrs. Dutt... you know that editor of that government paper? So I just wanted him to have a final look, grammatical... (Hindi) Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? What are these beads? Prabhupāda: I do not know. It was lying here, so I have packed. Hari-śauri: Oh. Have they been chanted or anything? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (at same time) Have you seen the Chinese *Gītā*? Prabhupāda: I do not know what for it was taken here. Hari-śauri: I don't know where they came from. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, French. [break] *Prabhupāda: They take it trifle. Husband and wife who are fighting, dam*-pate kalahe caiva bambharambhe laghu kriya.(?) If there is fight between husband and..., it will be... The show will be very big, and the result will be nil. Bambharambhe laghu-kriya. "Never come to me! I shall not see your face! If you come, I shall kill you!" So on, so on. Then next moment they are talking. Bambharambhe laghu-kriya. These are taken very lightly, no seriously. Now they are going... Nowadays, in the court case, fifty percent of cases are divorce in India. Hari-śauri: Same in the West. Prabhupāda: And that is also younger age, no old. Old age, they are never... There is no such case. Only younger generation, within thirties, twenty to thirty, they are fighting. Hari-śauri: Even in the West, the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't allow divorce. The Church of England was started on that because Henry VIII didn't like his wife, and he wanted to divorce, and the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't let him. So then he did do, so they excommunicated him. So then he started his own church and made up his own laws. Otherwise, now there's a big push in Italy for divorce and everything, but even in the last ten years there's been no divorce. They don't allow it. And chastity of the woman was still very greatly appreciated too. Prabhupāda: Woman infidel, they are stoned among the Muhammadans. Christian also. "You have done..." Woman proved unchaste, she was punished. Is it not? The public would stone and kill. You know that punishment? Stoning? Hari-śauri: Stoning, yes. It's mentioned a lot in early Christian times. They used to stone. Prabhupāda: Everyone will throw a stone. Very tortuous death, stoning. Hari-śauri: I remember my auntie's mother. She was Italian, and she used to wear black all the time. Just like the widows here, they wear white, so she was wearing black. She was a widow. So all the widows, even I saw some young women... Prabhupāda: Here also, in Gujarat, they wear black, black sari. Hari-śauri: Yes, right. And they wear black, and they don't dress attractively at all, and there's no question of marrying again. Prabhupāda: And Russia also, respectable widows, they used to live in widow's home. They would never marry. Hari-śauri: And they would wear black too. Prabhupāda: I have seen that house when I was in Moscow. That was one of the... What is called...? They go to see, especially tourists. Hari-śauri: Red Square? Prabhupāda: Red Square. No, I mean to say what is that called when they go to see specially something? Foreign Mecca(?). Hari-śauri: Sightseeing. Prabhupāda: That, no. Sightseeing. So anyway, they took us to a house. Hari-śauri: Oh, you went on a sightseeing tour. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, that "Here, respectable widows." In Russia, after being widow, they used to live along with other respectable widows. They would never marry. Widow house. Live with queens and other respectable ladies. This was... Hari-śauri: Now I think about seven or eight marriages out of every ten in Russia end up in divorce. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So we shall go? Hari-śauri: I just have to finish... [break] (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 6, 1976, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...Dialectic Spiritualism. Dr. Patel: You have taken their word. Prabhupāda: It is not their words, but just to counter... Dr. Patel: In fact, sir, Engels was a spiritualist, and his chela, Karl Marx, became materialist because he saw, accept poverty all round, due to the industrial revolution. He thought in that way. Prabhupāda: As if he was ordained to do it. Dr. Patel: But, well, he felt... He was a philosopher. *Prabhupāda: Such a rascal. He has moved poverty. He was in poverty*-stricken... Dr. Patel: He was extremely poor man. Yes, he died (indistinct). But that is what he thought. *Prabhupāda: That means poor fund of knowledge. That's it. These rascals will never go to the... Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. They do not know this science, these rascals. They manufacture. And we have also learned to manufacture. Dr. Patel: No, he did only on the Western thought. *Prabhupāda: No, no, Western philosophy... We have learned this art, manufacturing. Just like Vinoba Bhave's has proposed, "I want mukti not in the traditional way." He'll manufacture his own way. This is his intelligence after eighty-two years or eighty*-one years. "Not in the traditional, not in the religious way." Just see. He's still hovering in darkness, and he's going to get mukti. This is the position. Trivikrama: Prabhupāda has said that the Russian intelligence and Indian culture. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Sir, I may tell you. Russians are not that intelligent. I have very poor regard for the Russian intelligence. Intelligence is not with Russians that much. Prabhupāda: No. No, no, all Europeans, they're very intelligent. Dr. Patel: Especially Germans. Prabhupāda: They're very intelligent. Germans are extraordinarily... Indian man: The Aryan races are intelligent, and in Russia there is a mixture... Prabhupāda: They are Aryans. They are Aryans. Dr. Patel: Mixture, Aryan as well as the yellow race. Prabhupāda: Mixture everywhere now. Dr. Patel: No, here... I mean, so far as the Eastern European countries, they are more or less pure. They are mixed in a way. Prabhupāda: Anyway, we are not on that platform, we or anyone. We think we are on the... Everyone in the material platform, more or less, they are rascals, here or there. The Bengali is guhyera epi han opi. You know this? Stool, this side or that side, Eastern side or Western side, it is, after all, stool. (laughs) If somebody says, "Eastern side of the stool is very good," that is his foolishness. Dr. Patel: After the scattering of these Aryans, they have come different place. How is it that we brought all the cultural heritage in north, east and western countries? They must have also taken. But because they have to live very hard life, they are in cold countries... Prabhupāda: And what do you mean by "we"? We are not... Dr. Patel: "We" means our forefathers. Prabhupāda: Forefathers may be saintly person, but we are not. Why do you say "we"? Dr. Patel: "We" means the descendants of our forefathers. *Prabhupāda: My father might have been very rich man, but I am a poverty*-stricken man, loitering in the street. Why say "we"? Dr. Patel: "We" means these Aryans in India, they brought all the *Vedas* and Vedic culture with them. They must have taken it in. Prabhupāda: That's all right. One who is speaking, he is not in Vedic culture. That is the difficulty. Dr. Patel: I talk of these historical facts, sir. Historically, Eastern European races are just our cousin. I mean the Indian races. But still, they have not been able to take the... Prabhupāda: This, falsely to become proud: "We... We have done." What I am at the present? That is to be taken, not that... Now in Bengal... "Fourteen generations before my father took ghee, and I have got a smell." (laughs) What is that? Whether you are eating ghee or not, that is talk, not that "Fourteen generations before my father and forefathers ate ghee, and I have got the smell here." (laughs) Dr. Patel: No, we talk of Vedic culture, sir. Prabhupāda: Vedic culture is all right now. There is no question of "we" or "you." Dr. Patel: But why it is not with them? Prabhupāda: Why it is not with you? First of all say why you are challenging them? (laughter) First of all challenge yourself. Dr. Patel: (laughing) That's right. But they have not, their forefathers have got. We have at least with our forefathers. Prabhupāda: No, no, their forefathers are the Aryans, the same forefathers, your forefathers. Dr. Patel: They're Aryans, but they did not take the Vedic culture with them. Prabhupāda: They did not take. You are not taking. That's the same thing. Dr. Patel: Presently the whole world is... *Prabhupāda: That's all. That is our concern, how the world is misdirected. That we are challenging, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not that "East," "West," "you," "I." Everyone is a victim. Bhāgavata says, prāyena kalau asmin yuga*-jana: "In this age everyone is condemned." It doesn't say that "These Eastern, Western..." Everyone is condemned. Kalau asmin yuga-jana. That is impartial. (to Mahāṁsa:) How are you? Everything is all right? Mahāṁsa: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So Badruka is the same? Mahāṁsa: He came yesterday in the evening. I could not see him. Prabhupāda: So, it is not yet registered? Mahāṁsa: No. As soon as I get back today, it will be registered. He came just yesterday in the evening. Prabhupāda: So, what other news? Mahāṁsa: We are just waiting to get some water facilities made so that we can start doing something in the meantime. Prabhupāda: The water is not yet there? Mahāṁsa: One building is finished. Now the pump has to be gotten for that. The second building, we didn't have... I wasn't over there. I had gone to South India to collect some money. And then, when I came back, the people had gone away because there was no money to be paid to them. Prabhupāda: Why? I have already transferred? Mahāṁsa: That came just five days back. So now we'll be working on it full swing because we have some money. Prabhupāda: So the bank has transferred? Mahāṁsa: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So the prospect is nice? Mahāṁsa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: People are coming? Mahāṁsa: When I came... When I went to the South, to down South, there was about 270 people. Prabhupāda: Coming. Mahāṁsa: Yes. But then, when I returned, there was only fifty people. Prabhupāda: Why? Mahāṁsa: Because the prasādam quantity was cut down. Prabhupāda: Why cut down? Mahāṁsa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: So you don't know. Then who knows? Mahāṁsa: Well, Tejas and Haṁsadūta, they said to cut down the prasādam quantity. Prabhupāda: These nonsense ideas, why you make without asking? I am paying money. Why it should be cut down? Don't do anything nonsensical. This should be increased. I shall pay. Why you are anxious? So? Mahāṁsa: Now when I get back I'm going to work on it and see that at least... Prabhupāda: They should come. Every evening they should come, as many as possible. Give them prasādam. Our mission is to induce them to chant and take prasādam. Then, next stage, if they want to work with us, it is welcome. If not, we shall go on giving prasādam and induce them to chant. This is our mission. Mahāṁsa: The village people are very happy. Prabhupāda: Yes, they should be. That I want. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. This is our mission. *Mahāṁsa: The stone*-cutting has also started. Prabhupāda: Ah, that's nice. Mahāṁsa: They're doing very well. Prabhupāda: Here we're inviting everyone, "Come here. Live here. Take prasādam and chant. Don't drink tea. That's all." (chuckles) That is... Hare Kṛṣṇa. Trivikrama: "No tea?" Prabhupāda: No tea, no cigarette. That is their disease. No tea, no... Don't stop prasādam. Never. Increase. I shall beg and supply you money. Don't worry. But don't waste it. Simply you take money and utilize it for preaching. My only anxiety is that don't be extravagant. Otherwise you take money and spend it. Mahāṁsa: Don't be extravagant. *Prabhupāda: You should always know that hard*-earned money is... By working at night I am producing book, and they're working there hard, selling the books, and money is coming in that way. So either he or me, mine or yours, it is hard-earned money. It is not easily coming. And therefore we should be cautious. But there is no question of curtailing. There is no question. Mahāṁsa: Now we are in the process of making a brochure so that we can present to trusts and foundations for bigger donations for the farm project. Prabhupāda: That's nice. They have amassed money. Let them spend for this village organization. This is real Gandhi's program. He wanted this village organization. But because they manufactured their own way, it was not successful. But if we follow this principle, it will be successful, without any doubt. These big, big āśrama... Gandhi's āśrama is vacant. No. They are getting money, but they have no such program. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: It must be, because there is no solid program. There is no solid program, simply imagination. Dr. Patel: No. Because the followers... Prabhupāda: How there will be followers? If there is some program, then there will be followers. Dr. Patel: He wanted to defend the commoners. He wanted to defend the order (indistinct). But he unfortunately died. Prabhupāda: Everyone will die. But (Hindi). If you do something tangible, then you will live. And if you do something fictitious, then with your death everything is gone. (Hindi) But here the whole population is duṣkṛti. They are kṛti, but they are doing something wrong: duṣkṛti. How? Prapanna prapa jante mām. This is a miscon..., mischievous activity. Because he has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, whatever he has done, it is all mischievous. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Why he has done mischievous activities, mūḍha? The only test is, if one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, whatever he does it is all mischievous. So immediately go and you'll see. Devotee: Yes. *Mahāṁsa: Every morning we go on nagara*-kīrtana to every village. Prabhupāda: Mm. Yes, invite them. Invite them. (Hindi) Devotee: This lady is coming from Germany. Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian lady? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation with lady) You cannot do anything. Ultimately they will say no and for this they are paying (indistinct). (Hindi with lady) Very nice. You have got the desire and Kṛṣṇa will fulfill your desire. (Hindi) Then with practice, then it becomes successful. Ādau śraddhā tato sādhu*-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be increased by gradual process. First thing, just like you have got faith, it is nice thing. This is śraddhā. Then to associate with persons who are already engaged in this business, sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. That is called sādhu-saṅga. Ādau śraddhā tato, and then act like them, bhajana-kriyā. Simply theoretical will not help. Indian Lady: (more Hindi conversation with S.P.) Prabhupāda: So where you have given her place, Girirāja? Girirāja: In the, one of the guest rooms. Prabhupāda: That's all right. (pause) Biragati, biranadi (?). [break] ...to me. (indistinct) Not personally, but the daughter of the, wife of the, the mother of the, that is right position. Just like Kunti, she was the mother of Vir, Arjuna's mother. Mm. Indian Lady: Should I read what I have written? Prabhupāda: Mm, hm. *Indian Lady: (reads a paper praising the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement and describing activities of groups against the movement*-much of this indistinct) Prabhupāda: Actually you have seen in our Māyāpura there is no question Hindu, Muslim, everyone takes prasādam. There is no question. Indian Lady: (continues reading) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) It is great, fortunate that you are trying to understand. So if you try to understand this philosophy, you understand it is not the so-called religion, it is a culture for benefit of the whole human society, para-upakāra. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, para-upakāra. Because people are in the darkness of knowledge, to enlighten them, to come to the light, that is Vedic injunction, tamasi mā jyotir gamaḥ. Do not remain in darkness, come to the light. So our attempt is to bring these people who are kept in different types of, or different standards of darkness, to bring them to light. This is our position. It is not sectarian. Not for the Hindus, not for the Indians, but it is meant for the whole human society. Kṛṣṇa never said that He's Hindu or He's Indian. He says, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. He never says that "I am for the Hindu or for the Indians." Sarva-yoniṣu. There are 8,400,000 species of different types of life. That is the fact, bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10]. Wherefrom the life is coming? These rascals, they do not understand what is actual science, how things are going on, how the laws of nature is working. Simply superficially, "We have got some ideas." Fundamentally they have no knowledge. So we are trying to enlighten them with our teeny effort. Although it is single-handed, still it is genuine. If you kindly try to understand the whole philosophy-the first thing is, andhā yathāndair upanīyamānā, the whole world is now being conducted by blind leaders. And they're keeping people in darkness because they are themselves in darkness. They do not know what is light. So they do not know what is the object of life, what is the destination of life. Simply in blind faith they have created so many isms. It is simply misleading. It is little difficult to understand that we are simply leading others... That's a fact, that's a fact. If you impersonally try to understand this philosophy that every man is kept in the darkness of a different stamp, different ism. That is the first instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptir, after death you have to change your body. Then where is your ism? Whole ism changed. That they do not understand. They're so much in darkness, mūḍha. "Today I am very great national leader, my country, my..." So on, so on. And tomorrow by the laws of nature if I become a dog in Europe, then where is my nationalism? And it is possible. What is called? Because you are under nature's law, you are not independent. Therefore they have given up this idea that there is life after death. This is their first ignorance. Everyone is thinking that this life is everything for twenty years or thirty years or hundred years-eat, drink, be merry, enjoy then everything is finished. The whole Russian people, they think like that. Not whole, I don't, I cannot say but the learned, their learned professors, they think like that. The life is ended after this body. So our people also, our these politicians, they also think like that. So this is the platform of ignorance. And people are so much (indistinct), born into this ignorance. It is very, very difficult to raise them from this ignorance. This is our task. The first business is to convince him that "Your life continues." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. But it is very difficult for the modern man to understand. They have been so poorly educated that it is very difficult. But this is the first beginning of knowledge and if we are in the conception that "I am this body and the body is everything," then we are no better that the cats and dogs. So this is a movement to raise people from the platform of cats' and dogs' life. It is little difficult but we have to do it. That is our mission, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, para-upakāra. They're living like cats and dogs, do something good for them so that they may live like actual human beings. This is our... So you kindly stay here for some days, read our books and if there is any question, doubt, I shall be very glad to enlighten you. But this is the fact, the whole world is misguided by the rascal leaders, I must say that. Andhā, andhā is the last word of rascaldom, andhā yathāndair upanīyamānā. If I say (to) somebody, "You are rascal." There is maybe, partially he may be intelligent. But when we say andhā, andhā, then his life is... He cannot see anything. So that is the description given by Bhāgavatam, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā [SB 7.5.31]. They are durāśayā, hopelessly hopeful, trying to adjust things-bahir-artha-māninaḥ*-by external energy. Simply wasting time, it cannot be. This is the position. So we are trying little bit and if you help us, it is very kind of you. Everyone should help this movement, prāṇair arthair virair arcair, by sacrificing life, artha money, and intelligence. So you have moved amongst the higher circle, what is the opinion of our government men about this movement? Devotee: What is it our government people think about our movement? *Indian Lady: (indistinct) I am not talk about now (indistinct) yesterday night. In Europe I have talked with my consulate*-general (indistinct) I am helpless, you must go to India and talk about it and for this in India. It is very difficult here. Because our relation is not good to West Germany. Prabhupāda: They're so afraid they cannot say the truth. *Indian Lady: Their people don't like us. (indistinct*-man says something to Prabhupāda in background) Prabhupāda: Oh, where is he? Good. Everything is bad. Indian Lady: German people don't like us. *Prabhupāda: Why we are liked? We are poor, who will like us? Poor man is never liked, especially in the western countries. They hate. And not only there, our Canakya Paṇḍita also says, daridra*-doṣa guṇarāśī nāśī, if you are poor then all your qualities are gone. Dr. Patel: What is the disease? Prabhupāda: So materially wherever I go, there any gentleman I meet, "Oh, you are coming from India, very poor (indistinct)." This is our (indistinct). Not now, fifty years ago in 1930's when one of my godbrothers, one or two they went to London, Lady Willingdon, she was speaking that "You people come here from India and we give you degrees and you earn your livelihood in India. So what you have come to teach us?" That's a fact. We go to England to take the degrees, MRCT, FRCA, barrister or so on, so on, so on. Indian Lady: (indistinct) with Dr. Khoranna, he has got Nobel prize in America (indistinct). The Indian government (indistinct). And after that... Prabhupāda: American Nobel prize? Dr. Patel: (indistinct) ...he was an active friend of mine, Dr. Khoranna who has got (indistinct), a very intelligent fellow, extremely intelligent. Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say, Nobel prize is given from... Dr. Patel: He migrated to America. He married a (indistinct) girl, and he made a original discovery in genetic code, and then he got a Nobel prize. These people did not (indistinct). Indian Lady: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...we don't say like that. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu... Dr. Patel: He's very kind man. Prabhupāda: Kind man, so we are not also bad man. Dr. Patel: No, no, I don't mean that. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: The thing is that this nationalism is... We have to go beyond that. Actually they're happening, these boys, they're not thinking in terms of nationalism. Otherwise he had no business to come to me and to start this. We are in a different platform, Kṛṣṇa*-ism. That is our platform. So we shall go on. Indian man: (indistinct) [break] *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is within you. If you actually want to serve Kṛṣṇa, he'll give you intelligence. He says personally, dadāmi buddhi*-yogaṁ tam. What kind of?-yena mām upayānti te. So it is automatically available if you are sincerely desiring to serve Kṛṣṇa. Na toṣana chādiyā varṇāśrama-dharma. [break] Girirāja: So today... Actually I was thinking of phoning his wife because she was not well or one of our ladies could call her and then if she's still not well they could go and visit her. And if she is well, they could invite her that if she wants to come then she'll bring him. Prabhupāda: Mm. Don't bother. But as an etiquette (indistinct). Girirāja: Mr. Mota telephoned to say that that other man who was here... Prabhupāda: Mashari. Girirāja: No, the Kapoor, the Punjabi man. Prabhupāda: That one is from (indistinct). Girirāja: Yes, he was not with Mota. Prabhupāda: Hariramdas. Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Whose daughter, she called. Girirāja: Yes. So Mota says that he's a very rich man and that man who came, we should approach his older brother and he says that they can give a very big donation. And they can introduce us to other Punjabis. Prabhupāda: Mm. So whatever you sanction, it will not be good. Girirāja: Well, we had a confrontation that they want to break the condition that we have to hand over these ten feet. So I said that this is a separate issue and one thing had nothing to do with the other. So, actually they have accepted all of our arguments, what is boils down is that Mantrey is pressing them and they must, you know, why they are letting this slide by. So they say they want something to reply to him so we have to write a letter explaining our case. And... *Prabhupāda: Mantrey is an all*-in-all. *Girirāja: He's not all*-in-all, but he can make their life miserable. Because what he does is, if they don't satisfy him so he raises the issue of the corporation. He says this man is not doing his work properly, he should be transferred. So... Prabhupāda: What he is for them? Girirāja: He is their municipal councillor. He is the representative for this area in the municipal corporation, elected. So actually this came up before and at that time we met the municipal commissioner that they are trying to put this condition. So he agreed that this should be a, you know, decided by the court or by some third party and not, he will not do anything to change the status quo by forcing us. So we have to put that in the letter. And [break] ...hitch. Not a hitch exactly but there's this urban land ceiling that anyone who has more than 500 square yards property, that comes under the ceiling. So we are exempt because we are a charitable trust and apart from that, in the final plan, most of the land will be built up, it won't be vacant. But in order to get the sanction, we have to get either an N.O.C. (No Objection Certificate) that we are exempt from the ceiling or an exemption to get the N.O.C. So we have to meet some higher official. So I have to finalise it but I'm supposed to contact the architect and we have to go and see about this. Actually the management is so bad there that they have made this requirement that any new building, you have to get N.O.C. regarding the land ceiling. But so far they have not given one N.O.C. for land ceiling because they are not yet decided what is the policy to give the N.O.C. So they simply are piling up the applications until they decide their policy. So first we will try to get exemption that we don't require this N.O.C. Then if we fail in that then I suppose we have to meet the minister and ask him to give us the N.O.C. Prabhupāda: So why not meet the minister? Girirāja: Huh? Prabhupāda: Why not meet the minister? Girirāja: Yes. We've met him once before because he's... The municipality is under him. So when we met the Chief Minister to get these things straightened out, so at that time he spoke to this Urban Affairs Minister. So he knows us, he's quite intelligent personally. But I think if... First we'll meet the city engineer, he's next to the commissioner and just say that we don't want to have to get this N.O.C. So if he removes that condition then the whole problem is solved. Do you think we should go straight to the minister? Prabhupāda: Harassment. Girirāja: Huh? Prabhupāda: Harassment. Girirāja: Oh, yes, completely. Their whole office, the papers are piled to the ceiling and people just waste hours (indistinct). Prabhupāda: If there is ceiling, then we can divide the land amongst ourselves. Girirāja: But that also they have blocked in the sense that in order to sell now that the ceiling is there, in order to sell your land you have to get another N.O.C. to sell it. Prabhupāda: Then, I cannot sell, I cannot use it. Girirāja: That's what I'm saying. They make it impossible. They say they want the country to develop quickly but they make it impossible to develop. Prabhupāda: Today I think fasting. Indian Lady: Fasting. Prabhupāda: I have no appetite, I could not eat even breakfast. Indian Lady: So I will be here if you want something, you can call for me. Prabhupāda: Mm. For the time being, no appetite. You can soak some little chipped rice in water. Indian Lady: Which? Devotee: Chipped rice. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) in water. Soak it. Maybe if I feel hungry I shall take it. This is the condition of material world, simply harassing, this all these big, big government (indistinct). How to harass. The more you learn this art, how to harass, you become a big politician. Not para*-upakāra. Mandāḥ sumanda matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. Upadrutāḥ, disturbing. Adhibautika, one living entity is harassing another living entity, killing. So I have decided to construct a temple in Bhuvaneśvara. What do you think, shall I attempt? Girirāja: Of course that is our business to construct temples. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Temple (indistinct). Temple means preaching center. This Gurukula I have made for temple (indistinct) center. Now they have made it but that (indistinct). Purpose is, that whole world in the neophyte stage, they will (indistinct), man*-manā bhava mad..., think of Kṛṣṇa, offering obeisances, offer (indistinct) from the persons maintaining the temple (indistinct). Therefore they do not like that a temple should be constructed, it is waste of... (indistinct) ...must be engaged to work hard, produce money and enjoy sense gratification. Hog civilization. We are restricting that "Don't work hard like hog and dog or animals, just satisfy your minimal necessities of life, save time and (indistinct) spiritual understanding. This is our mission. Their mission is, "What is this nonsense, spiritual understanding? Simply some sentiment, waste of time. Produce, enjoy, invent so many things for sense gratification." Western civilization. And this is very attractive to the rākṣasa class. Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy. This is the rākṣasa mentality. As soon as there is television, or similar invention, they become very much enthused. They purchase and sitting down, they waste their time. I have seen in America the old man of family, one dog, one television, simply wasting time. And 50 cents for eat. How they are wasting the valuable human life. How they are kept in the darkness. This is life. I have seen television. All some fictitious stories. Here, trained position. They have manufactured one big hammer and training strongly and these rogues they are sending their hammer to train and as soon as the hammer... smashed. They want to see. One man kept ferocious dogs and one girl (indistinct) the dog is chasing and the girl is screaming (indistinct) so many (indistinct). You know this? Devotee: There are millions... Prabhupāda: Shooting, one man. (laughter) At least 50 cents stories (indistinct). Girirāja: They could see stories of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Mm? Mythology. Girirāja: That is mythology. *Prabhupāda: And here is fact. So one side is: people are no more interested. (indistinct). This is our business. I think western countries the young men, they're joining this successfully. Adānta gobhir viśataṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. (indistinct) first part. Find out this matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā. Matir na kṛṣṇe. This is our law book. Devotee: Prabhupāda: Read the purport. *Devotee: In this verse the words matir na kṛṣṇe refer to devotional service rendered to Kṛṣṇa. So*-called politicians, erudite scholars and philosophers who read Bhagavad-gītā try to twist some meaning from it to suit their material purposes, but their misunderstandings of Kṛṣṇa will not yield them any profit. Because such politicians, philosophers and scholars are interested in using Bhagavad-gītā as a vehicle for adjusting things materially, for them constant thought of Kṛṣṇa, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is impossible (matir na kṛṣṇe). As stated in Bhagavad-gītā, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti: [Bg. 18.55] only through devotional service can one understand Kṛṣṇa as He is. The so-called politicians and scholars think of Kṛṣṇa as fictitious. The politician says that his Kṛṣṇa is different from the Kṛṣṇa depicted in Bhagavad-gītā. Even though he accepts Kṛṣṇa and Rāma as the Supreme, he thinks of Rāma and Kṛṣṇa as impersonal because he has no idea of service to Kṛṣṇa. Thus his only business is punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]-chewing the chewed again and again. The aim of such politicians and academic scholars is to enjoy this material world with their bodily senses. Therefore it is clearly stated herein that those who are gṛha-vrata, whose only aim is to live comfortably with the body in the material world, cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. The two expressions gṛha-vrata and carvita-carvaṇānām indicate that a materialistic person tries to enjoy sense gratification in different bodily forms, life after life, but is still unsatisfied. In the name of personalism, this ism or that ism, such persons always remain attached to the materialistic way of life. As stated in Bhagavad-gītā: Prabhupāda: I have seen in San Francisco, what is that (indistinct)? Devotee: (indistinct). Prabhupāda: I think San Francisco. What is that park? Girirāja: Golden Gate. Prabhupāda: Golden Gate park. Devotee: San Diego? Prabhupāda: No, no, San Francisco. There is a lake. So there the ducks, the male duck is attacking the female duck, what is called? When man forcibly attacks? Girirāja: Rape. *Prabhupāda: Rape, the same thing. And the human life is (indistinct). This was going on. The water, the ducks, water on the (indistinct), the ducks are going on and little (indistinct) is going on. The same (indistinct) but in different way. The (indistinct) is the same, punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. But according to the mentality, he is getting different body but the business is the same. Adānta-gobhir, unrestrained senses. Simply sense enjoyment. The duck is also doing this, the ant is doing this, the fly is doing this, the mosquito is doing this, the man is doing this, animal is doing this, sense enjoyment. (rest of tape very indistinct) (end) *Evening Darçana-*-January 7, 1977, Bombay *Jagadīśa: (reading letter) "Enclosed please find a clipping showing a press interview with California Governor Jerry Brown, who is a potential presidential candidate in the next election, asking the Hare Kṛṣṇa followers to help humanize conditions in the state mental institutes. He recognized that what is needed is for religious leaders to come in and to give these patients new life. And he recognized us as religious leaders. This is a great credit for us, and we immediately called the five biggest state institutes and got permission to visit their patients. We sent fifty devotees with gift*-wrapped 'Krishnas' presents of prasāda, Bhagavad-gītās and Kṛṣṇa books, calendars, records, and so on. And all of the doctors were so appreciative that they invited us back to show movies, put on plays, and continue helping their patients." Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Aiye. Guest (1) (Indian man): Humanity is hungry for love of father Śrī Kṛṣṇa, devotion, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only... Guest (1): That is only medicine. That is only remedy. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is only medicine. That is only remedy. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...directly presented, "Here is God." Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. "But why you are making research and wasting time, 'Whether God is person or imperson or this or that? What is His...?' Here is God." Guest (1): That is the material view, to analyze all these things. Prabhupāda: God is personally presenting Himself, aham. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. Still, people cannot understand. Guest (1): Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. *Prabhupāda: But they are so dull*-headed, they can't understand. Guest (1): They can't understand. They have no imagination, nothing at all, no sight. Prabhupāda: Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati [Bg. 7.3]. God is presenting Himself, and still, the rascals will not understand. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Guest (1): Māyayāpahṛta jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Prabhupāda: God is presenting Himself, and still, they cannot understand, such a mūḍha, duṣkṛtino, narādhamāḥ. Guest (1): We have to wash that ignorance, giving the message to the... Prabhupāda: No... (Hindi) Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām. Guest (1): māyām etāṁ taranti te. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. But he'll not do that. Guest (1): Because he has succumbed to the passionate, passions. *Prabhupāda: But if he takes Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, then everything is all right immediately. Guest (1): That is the disease. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Prasāda. Mam eva ye prapadyante māyām... Guest (1): māyām etāṁ taranti te. Prabhupāda: That is the disease. Āsuraṁ bhāvam. Guest (1): Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (1): And day by day, that community is increasing. Day by day, that community is increasing at least in India. Young generation is going in materialism. Materialism increases, then egoism, and... *Prabhupāda: Mṛtyu*-saṁsāra-vartmani [Bg. 9.3]. Mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra... *Guest (1): Mṛtyu*-saṁsāra-vartmani. (Hindi) They are called educated fools. Prabhupāda: Jñānī murkha. [break] (Hindi) Guest (1): I have been to Poona where there were some lectures on this Swami Sradhananda. It was fifty years past to his death. So there were some lectures. *Prabhupāda: Sraddhananda, they're Arya*-samājis. *Guest (1): Arya*-samājis he was, follower of Swami Vivekananda. He was shot down in Delhi, and so... Forty years and there was some ceremony, all these things. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) How it will be fortune? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā [Bg. 9.11]. (Hindi) Guest (1): They think like this. (Hindi) So they'll end in the same way. Trivikrama: So how are we going to change? Guest (1): How? Mām anusmara yuddhya ca [Bg. 8.7]. Taking the name, believing in full in the name of the Almighty. And we have to try our level best to uplift the society, to make them educate, to guide them, provide them, to bring them on the right path. This is only way. *Trivikrama: Bhagavad*-gītā says we need the guru. Guest (1): Yes, sir, that is right, no doubt. That is correct. So they should understand on where they wanted to go, what is their goal. Prabhupāda: There is no goal. They think after this body everything is finished. Guest (1): Endless life they are returning. Prabhupāda: Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām eva param avyayam. Guest (1): So we have to make them know that this is the wrong way, and this is the right way, and you have to go by this right way. And when you'll come to right way, he has to obey some discipline, obey some rules and rights. And there he wants nigraha. [break] Prabhupāda: Is it possible to stop it? Or young men, if he says "No, no, I'm not going to..." but everyone wants that. Young man does not want to become old man, but by nature's law he has to become. Guest (1): One thing that these people have... Prabhupāda: These people or that people, I don't mind. Guest (1): Yes, sir. We have the secular India concept. *Prabhupāda: Again why you are bringing "secular India"? This is a science. Science, science, scientific knowledge*-so does it mean the secular India, they should stop scientific education? Guest (1): No religion can be backed up like that. *Prabhupāda: No, why you bring religion at all? It is science. Religion is a kind of faith. But science is not faith. You may have faith or may not have faith. Science, "Two plus two equal to four," everywhere. Why they forget this? This is a science, vijñāna. Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa*-vijñānaṁ idaṁ vakṣyāmy aśeṣataḥ [Bg. 7.2]. It is vijñāna. And they are interpreting in different way, "Two plus two equal five." Big, big men, they are doing that. Two plus two equal five because somebody, some big man has said? This is going on. Somebody said, "Two plus two equal to three"; somebody says "Two plus two equal five." "In my opinion it is five." And somebody: "In my opinion it is three." What is this nonsense? This is going on. And they are big men. They are leaders, mūḍha. This is the position of India. D. D. Desai: But Swamiji, you are just... (Hindi) on Hindu... *Prabhupāda: I'm not (Hindi). My jñāna is Bhagavad*-gītā. That's all. Neither (Hindi). But what Kṛṣṇa says, I accept. That's all. They say, "Swamiji, you have done wonderful." I do not know what is magic, wonderful. But one thing wonderful I have done, that I have not adulterated on the words of Kṛṣṇa. That I have not. And therefore the effect is very good. I have not adulterated. I don't say, "Two plus two equal to five" or "three." I say "Four." Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. D. D. Desai: Now that is not... It's not also the quest which I am really inviting, 2 p.m., and this is the acknowledgement. And subsequently we have our dinner at Brahmanandari Place. We have a purpose, we intend, discuss at length. *Prabhupāda: No, you can study. It is going on throughout the whole world. Now the Western world, they're feeling the strength. They have now begun opposition. Their politicians are thinking that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is spreading like epidemic." Actually it is so. "And if it is spread so quickly, within ten years they'll take our government." They say like that. And that is possible because these young men, they have taken seriously and they're pushing on. If the majority is after them, they can take over. It is democratic, America. And how they are after this movement... If you see our latest picture of Ratha*-yātrā... You have seen that film? Ratha-yātrā? D. D. Desai: Yes. So many thousands of... Prabhupāda: Fifth Avenue. D. D. Desai: Yes. They're pulling the chariot. Prabhupāda: You might have seen. D. D. Desai: I think San Francisco or somewhere? Girirāja: This is very recent, in New York. Prabhupāda: People become mad, and the papers admitted, "Here is the place for East and West to meet." And the police were so satisfied, they said, "Next year we shall make very, very nice arrangement." Guest (1): Unfortunately what has happened, that several movements have merged. Prabhupāda: This is not one of the several movements. Guest (1): No. These people have confusion in their mind. One of course is CIA, then then FBI, then this hippie, then this narcotic people and... Prabhupāda: Hundreds there are. But what we have got to do with them? Guest (1): They're addicted with those things. And also some of our own Transcendental Meditation and so forth, all these things are creating some mental confusion and lack of certain clarity which is... Prabhupāda: But we must have eyes to see. What they have got, position? All these, they go and come. But here it is entering into the core of the heart of the younger generation. They are becoming mad after it. One should have eyes to see. And therefore the authorities are afraid that "Younger generation, if they..." Here is one book by Professor Stillson Judah. He's a great, learned scholar. After five years study on this movement he has written this book, Hare Krishna and Counterculture. He has given his verdict that "This movement will stay." He has very thoroughly studied the statistics and meeting every member, in this way. There are many books about us, small and big. But here is a responsible master of religious studies. *D. D. Desai: One of the earliest days, when we had this group come to our neighborhood, Mrs. Desai and myself visited. They invite together. Swami Parvati*-kanta had called that in Gupta House, Natinsi Road. So our house is adjacent. Bungalow is adjacent to it. So we were there, invited there, so we joined the group. Those all people came to our bungalow subsequently, and they had some program. Then Mrs. Desai served them some food... Prabhupāda: Our program? D. D. Desai: Yes, sir, Hare Kṛṣṇa program. They had a program, kīrtana. Then we enrolled as life member. I think that was about four years back. Swamiji from our Badranath, who is around this... Vina(?) Swami. He was there. He was saying that "Our people have forgotten our, this culture and this heritage, but people..." Prabhupāda: Everyone says. It is purely Indian culture, and I am not getting any help from the government although they have got cultural department. Some dancing party will go; they'll pay. That is culture. And cultural knowledge is religion. This is the position. (Hindi) Real culture is neglected. And some dancing party in the name of culture will draw money and go. Guest (1): Perhaps he is right, Swamiji. Nobody has studied this movement deeply. Prabhupāda: Why they don't study? It is going on worldwide. They are studying. Indian lady (2): They do not study because they give their opinion. *Indian lady (3): Like Swamiji, the karma*-yoga is very important in India. D. D. Desai: It is true, Swamiji. You are a preacher, teacher, everything. So one of your responsibilities will be obviously to make any ignorant man knowledgeable. And these people... Indian lady (2): Excuse me, but that ignorant man must, you see, be prepared to get the knowledge. D. D. Desai: I'll just finish. Now, here is our people, whether they are leaders or whether they are big politician, whatever you might call. Now, having known that they suffer for certain difficulties or... We say take... You can only pity them for their lack of knowledge, and to that extent, you, out of sympathy, would naturally like to impart in them certain basic material knowledge, which has distracted them. Now, this, I think, Swamiji Vivekanandi... Because my grandfather, granduncle, was, Haridāsa Bhai Dada, was responsible for Swamiji Vivekananda's trip to America. That was sometime at turn of last century. Guest (4) (Indian man): I have seen his latest book, Swami Too. (?) *D. D. Desai: And that was my grand*-uncle, my grandfather's elder brother. So we were all joint family, Hindi joint family. So Swamiji used to go round and... When I say Swamiji, I mean Vivekanandi. He used to go round and then request from us sometimes, sometimes casually, sometimes persuading... Whatever I have known from my father, who was at that time studying in Bahubiri College... He died at eighty-two years' age. Now he has finished his century, so I believe that was sometime, beginning of the last century, end of last century. So he was telling that Swamiji was quite a person, and he would never worry about (Hindi) or anything. He would still take care of his own little self-respect, but still he insisted on other people being informed with his knowledge, imparted with his knowledge. To that extent, he also, when he went to States... You said in 1902, that is, he... Guest (1): No earlier, earlier. Prabhupāda: No, he went... 1893. D. D. Desai: 1893. Yes, he knows these things. Turn of last century. He wrote some letters to my granduncle. Therein he has said about the immigration difficulties and other things. And then he could finally establish certain amount of respect for himself and the Indian culture. In other words, what point I am trying to make is that the world at large does not recognize the good person from a bad person. And therefore it becomes the responsibility of good person to bring at least awareness about the good person's existence, and then they follow. Now, how many people have followed Swami Vivekananda? How many people followed to start with? These things came because of his personal contact. Now, here also the same people have all praise and all respect, all things for the movement. Similarly, we have also. We came to know, and so we are in it. Now, for example, Mrs. Gandhi is highly religious, I know. Whatever others might have feeling... Prabhupāda: I know that. D. D. Desai: She herself is highly... The amount of respect she has got for Indian culture is terrific, to an extent of almost aggression if somebody puts a foot down or something about these things. Even Panditji, with all said and done, he had a feeling, and he was one with Mahatma Gandhi, that a day will come when India, by solving its problems, will take away the existing world from the present Western culture to a new culture, which will be of a superior level. That day would be the day when India has made good its ultimate destiny. Something like that they had feeling. So Panditji also was dreaming, but he was not an executive type of person. So Panditji had left his thing, all the dreams, but Mrs. Gandhi seems to be translating some of the dreams, or at least she feels she's translating some of the dreams into reality. The difficulty with her is that she has not proper guidance at times, and to that extent she feels she falls into certain pits of difficulties. Basically a good soul, but a soul with certain waywardness could become at times little... Prabhupāda: So if you think that Mrs. Gandhi is religious and is for Indian culture, why not ask her to take the guidance of Kṛṣṇa? Who can give better guidance than Kṛṣṇa? Indian lady (2): Mahatma Gandhi took guidance... Of course, he also made lots of mistakes, but he did take guidance... *Prabhupāda: Everyone must make mistake because a conditioned soul are liable to four defects. One of them is to commit mistake. One of them is to become illusioned. One of them, he is a cheater. And one of them, his senses are imperfect. So every conditioned soul who has got this material body, he is defective in these four things. Therefore he has to take knowledge from a person who has no defects. Then his knowledge will be perfect. Just like a small child, he is defective, but he receives the knowledge from the father: "This is called pencil." A child does not know what it is, but the father says, "My dear child, it is pencil." And if he says, "It is pencil," then it is correct, although he's a child, because he has received the knowledge from the person who knows it. Similarly, our principle is*-that is Vedic principle-evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. The knowledge has to be taken from the superior, liberated person. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā that Guest (1): But who will advise her, sir? Prabhupāda: I will advise! Guest (1): Ah, that is it. That is the... *Prabhupāda: You arrange, I will advise her. I am not proud, but I am the authority at the present moment. It is not pride. It is the fact! So let her take! Let her understand. The authority is there. And what is understanding? It is simple truth. Everyone can understand. Any child can understand. There is no difficulty. We make it difficult by our rascal interpretation. And that is very simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. So there must be somebody, original person. You are existing, you are coming from your father. Your father coming from his father, his father, his father... Now, who is the original father? There must be somebody. You may or may not know. So here is the answer: aham ādir hi devānām. So why don't you take? Where is the difficulty? If you are finding out who is the original person and the original person is presenting Himself and He is being accepted by great authorities*-formerly Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Asita, Devala, and later on Rāmānujācārya Madhvācārya, and all big, big stalwart ācāryas, Caitanya Mahāprabhu-so why don't you accept Kṛṣṇa the supreme original authority? What is the difficulty? The fact is very plain, but I'll not take it. If I misguide myself, then who will guide me? If I sleep while I am not sleeping, then who will help me? Take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. If Indira Gandhi... I know she is intelligent, she is religious. Let her follow strictly the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Just his, all her ambition, all her programs, will be successful-if he's (she's) serious. D. D. Desai: Now, since you have shown the repeated willingness to talk to her directly, so I'll... Prabhupāda: It is science. There is no difficulty to understand Guest (1): I'll talk to her. Even I'll talk to her personally, that "Swamiji would be delighted to..." Prabhupāda: But whether she has got time? Guest (1): She's... That is the... Now, that is on one point I must tell you one small thing, that... *Prabhupāda: One lady... She is Subash Bose's niece, Lalitā Bose. You see? Because these family are very intimately..., Subash Bose's family and Nehru family. So she calls Indira "Didi," means "elder sister." So she took me, and she gave me interview at a very critical moment, just day before that Bujhibanlal(?) was killed, and she was guarded by heavy number of police and soldier. Still, she allowed my car to enter. I am very much obliged. But it was ten minutes' time. So what Bhagavad*-gītā could be discussed in ten minutes? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. One has to learn Bhagavad-gītā submissively, praṇipātena, paripraśnena, by sincere inquiry, and learn it from a person who has seen. Upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. You cannot have any knowledge, who has not seen the truth. If you say that "How it is possible that you have...?" We have seen through this paramparā system. The same thing: "This is pencil." I have learned it from my father, "It is pencil," that's all. You cannot call it stick. It is pencil. My father has taught that "This is pencil." I know this. That's all. It is very easy. But if one follows, his life is successful. Very easy. D. D. Desai: So your impression is that ten minutes or whatever time is not adequate, and unless she prepares her ground for stable, continuous... Prabhupāda: No, she can... Paripraśna. From scientific point of view, from logic, that is accepted. But if he (she) thinks blindly something, then it is not possible. D. D. Desai: Presently you are... *Prabhupāda: I am not imitating them. Of course, all credit to Vivekananda. But Vivekananda learned something from them: how to eat meat. And introduced amongst the sannyāsīs that "There is no harm in eating meat." So Vivekananda learned something from them. And I have gone to-"Forget meat*-eating." That is the difference. These boys, these young boys... Just see how they have become Vaiṣṇava. D. D. Desai: Would it be all right to open the window? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, you can open the fan, one point. This is the real culture, original culture of India, and they are accepting it. Why not government come to my help? Without any help I am doing so much. D. D. Desai: This is exceptionally, I would say, very creditable. When you say... Prabhupāda: We are increasing. There is opposition against our movement, and still, we are increasing. D. D. Desai: When you say, "We are poor..." *Prabhupāda: No, no, so*-called poor. *D. D. Desai: That's it. Because the other day when I was reading Howard Hughes and his billion*-dollar life, and then also Poli(?), I can say this much, that some of our poorest of Indians are far better off than these gentlemen. Prabhupāda: Yes, culturally we are better off. Materially, we are certainly very poor. But because we are culturally advanced, even the actual poor man, he does not feel that he is in poverty. D. D. Desai: Yes, that is the case. That is... There is a basic grace in poverty. Prabhupāda: That is... D. D. Desai: Even when there is no money, the man is... Indian lady (5): (Hindi?) Even a small kid can understand. Why these big people cannot understand these (Hindi?) things? Guest (1): Because we are educated. So we have to uneducate ourselves to understand this. Indian lady (5): Educated does not take away your real culture. So you may be educated, but... *Prabhupāda: This is real culture, Bhagavad*-gītā. I'm preaching that, Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Indian lady (5): When Swamiji says, "The Supreme Personality says," where is the doubt and where is the questioning also? Prabhupāda: I represent as it is, and it is being accepted. (Indians talking at once) *Guest (1): Swamiji, what is the way out now? We have understood the present position, and you have also realized. You have seen the... And I don't want to take... I know that this ten*-minutes' talk will not bring any satisfaction on either side. Now that has put me into a new thinking, that she's presently more worried about... Prabhupāda: That is a politics. You must be worried. You must be worried. That is material world. So so long you are in the material platform, you must be worried. There is no exception. And I have seen in that time, how much worried she was at that time. Yes. So it does not mean because she is Prime Minister, there is no worry. It is not possible. Guest (1): She's very worried. Prabhupāda: Everyone is very worried. D. D. Desai: More worried. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Everyone is very worried. That is described by Prahlāda Mahārāja. When Hiraṇyakaśipu... After all, they are father and son. He inquired from the son, "My dear son, what best thing you have learned?"S So he said, "My dear..." He did not say "My dear father." He said "The best of the asuras." He addressed his father, "The best of the asuras." Tat sādhu manye asura varya dehinam. "My dear the best of the asuras..." He was the best of the asuras. "So I think that is best education..." Tat sādhu manye 'sura*-varya dehinām. Dehināṁ sadā samudvignam asad-grahāt. [break] We have got good rooms like this, not that one has to go to the forest. Even in the Vṛndāvana we have got very good room, but nobody's coming. This is the position. After fiftieth year, voluntarily one must commit civil suicide-no family. And that is Vedic. But he will think of family up to the point of being killed by this revolver. This is going on. Even Gandhi, what to speak of others. He presented himself as very tyāgī, but unless he was killed, he did not give up his ambition. "How my sons, how my countrymen will be happy?" And what happiness you can give? You are not God. Who is taking care of them? But this is māyā. He was thinking, "If I am not there, then whatever I have got, it will be finished." D. D. Desai: After Mahatmaji had got his independence... Prabhupāda: What independence? D. D. Desai: The independence was obtained, and some people asked him... Prabhupāda: I asked him! D. D. Desai: I don't know who asked... (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 7, 1977, Bombay *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What he will do, more payment? (?) Then he will kill. This sex life in this material world is so strong, even in the heavenly planets. Big, big ṛṣis. Sex life with animals also there is... Sex life is so strong. Man cohabiting with animal. It makes blind. Vyāsadeva made one of her (his) students pregnant, what to speak of ourselves. Vyāsadeva was born, Satyavatī. She was low class. Although she was born by a king, but her mother was a low*-class fisherwoman. And the fisherman raised her as daughter. And Parāśara Muni became attracted. And Vyāsadeva was born. Sex affairs, just see, in the highest circle. Bṛhaspati, the spiritual master of the devatās, he became so much mad for his brother's wife who was pregnant, and forcibly they had sex. Just see. These are examples. Brahmā became attracted with his daughter. Lord Śiva became attracted with the beauty of Mohinī-mūrti, even in the presence of his wife. So this sex life can be controlled only by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise there is no... The Bhāgavata has discussed all this because in this material world there is no escape unless we become Kṛṣṇa conscious, from the sex impulse. It is not possible. Yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa... When one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he'll reject all this nonsense: "What is this?" Bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭhu. He'll spite (spit): "Eh! Get out. Is that enjoyment?" It is possible for a Kṛṣṇa conscious... No other can do it. And that is the bondage. He'll have to work hard for maintaining sex issues. And so long you are bound up by the karmas, you have to accept another body and then continue. Who knows this how we are bound up and conditioned? If you talk in the modern society they will laugh: "What nonsense this man is... 'By sex life one becomes conditioned.' " They cannot understand. Hare Kṛṣṇa... (japa) This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyāsīs. And those sannyāsīs who have fallen, you get them married, live like a... No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that "We shall not fall down again," that is also not believable. What is the use? Better go and speak philosophy in your gṛhastha dress, not this dress, but you have nice coat, pants, gentleman. Who says no? I never said. Rather I shall be glad to see that up-to-date gentlemen with tilaka and śikhā are speaking. That is very prestigious everywhere. Why this false dress? What is the wrong to become gṛhastha? I was gṛhastha, pākā caliber gṛhastha. My Guru Mahārāja was brahmacārī, This is ever... Just see his character. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was gṛhastha, but when He took sannyāsa: "Oh, I am now..." For sober person. That is wanted. That is ideal. He married twice. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura married twice. Caitanya Mahāprabhu married twice. What is the wrong there? One has to become pure devotee, that's all. Other things, of course, are circumstantially favorable, either a gṛhastha, brahmacārī or vānaprastha or sannyāsa. Kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei 'guru' haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128]. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That makes you guru, not this dress. So what you are thinking of American program? Do it seriously. Balavanta is very expert. And all of you are expert. And do it seriously and systematically, not change the position, this side and this, change. That's not good. That makes fickle. Strength of mind wanted. Jagadīśa: Prabhupāda, I was thinking of taking books, going from town to town, and finding interested people and then... Prabhupāda: Everyone will be interested. Jagadīśa: Yes. And stay for some time in one place, find some local people, train them up cooking... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is good. Jagadīśa: ...kīrtana, speaking, reading the books... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is wanted. Jagadīśa: ...and let them set up a small center in their house or purchase one storefront. Prabhupāda: If one is convinced about this favorably, that is success. It doesn't matter what dress. Let him teach his family, and the neighborhood. Let them do their own business. It doesn't matter. That is... Let them understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa science. That is wanted. Do that program. Make that program. He is coming, Rāmeśvara. Take to it very seriously. [break] I can cycle even now. In our childhood... I had car, but my nephew was driving. I never drove. In 1925, I purchased one Buick car. Trivikrama: Buick? It's a good car. Prabhupāda: At that time in India it was eight thousand rupees only, very strong car. Trivikrama: From America it came? Prabhupāda: Yes, American cars were selling during British days, Ford, Buick, Chevrolet. These cars were selling. Dodge. In 1925 I purchased one Buick car, eight thousand rupees. Dr. Patel: Small cars were everywhere 1700 rupees in 1936-37. Prabhupāda: And Ford car was very cheap. *Dr. Patel: Thirty*-two hundred rupees. V8 Ford cars were sold in Bombay market for thirty-two hundred rupees, three thousand two hundred. Now you send a car for repairs, the bill will be six thousand, seven thousand rupees. Prabhupāda: What can be done? Things have gone high, I was calculating the other day, twenty times. Hari-śauri: Thirty times. Dr. Patel: More than that. Thirty times, yes. Prabhupāda: Thirty times, yes. My father's income was from 250 to 300, and we were living very comfortably. Jagadīśa: A month? Prabhupāda: Per month. Dr. Patel: It was more than sufficient, those days. Prabhupāda: No, no, that three hundred rupees means... What you calculated? Hari-śauri: Well, at 250 rupees it came to seven and a half thousand rupees now. Prabhupāda: That's right. Even low as 250 it comes to seven thousand rupees. So who has got seven thousand rupee income now? Dr. Patel: In my house we spend monthly more than six thousand rupees. I studied for my graduation in the college at fifty rupees a term fee for six months. I'm paying for those small kids going to the family schools seven hundred rupees per month. *Prabhupāda: Our family was taking two kilos and a half milk daily. Two annas per kilo. Ghee was selling, first*-class ghee, in Calcutta... Just in front of our house there was a grocer shop. We were purchasing in that tin, but if some required, I would go immediately. Dr. Patel: Fourteen rupees I think it was. Fourteen rupees is twenty kilos. Prabhupāda: Less than that. Ten seers. Dr. Patel: That is twenty kilos. Trivikrama: Cow ghee? Prabhupāda: No, buffalo's... Cow ghee we were taking with rice. But it was not available in quantity. *Dr. Patel: Many was so very cheap then. After I graduated myself when I was university scholar, I was given seventy*-five rupee scholarship per month and a free bungalow with servants and all these things. It was all right for me till I passed my M.D., seventy-five rupees only. *Prabhupāda: This cow's milk in Bengal, it is compulsory*-before beginning your meal, little cow milk, er, ghee mixed with rice and smashed potato. It is very nice. Dr. Patel: And then we do serve..., after that we take out a part of it for the cow back, and a little for... Prabhupāda: Ālu bharte bharta. (?) In Bengal it is called ālu bharte bharta. If you don't have anything, just have smashed potato, little ghee and rice. That's it. It is sufficient, very nutritious. And at last, little milk. Very nutritious. Dr. Patel: Now there is shortage of all the important material the world over. The way we are exploiting the earth, perhaps we'll be short, falling short of everything. Prabhupāda: Therefore our Trivikrama Mahārāja is reminding me... When I was lecturing in Berkeley University, one Indian student asked me, "Swamijī, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will benefit? We require technology." So I replied that "You have come to beg technology; I have come to give them, not to beg from them." Trivikrama: To teach. "I've come to give." Dr. Patel: I understand. The modern materialistic, I mean, advancement of society with this modern technology will, I mean... *Prabhupāda: No, even from that point of view, I was taking aeroplane. Aeroplane was flying. So we admit this is contribution of the Western technology. But it is not safe. But what I am giving, it is safe. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato... So our, this contribution of India's culture and this contribution, far different. That is not safe. At any moment you'll be finished. But here*-svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. This Manipur state is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. And these people say that three thousand years before, there was no civilization. Trivikrama: Now they're changing. Dr. Patel: In Manipur where Arjuna made... *Prabhupāda: Babhruvāhana. And Babhruvāhana was the king's daughter's son, so he remained as the adopted son of the king. Putrikā*-suta. He had no son so he took the daughter's son. So this is India's... The kṣatriyas, they're not (indistinct), and some śūdras are ruling. Dr. Patel: The śūdras are ruling the world over, not only in India. Because Nixon was less than a śūdra, they way he carried out himself, the highest authority of the most advanced state materialistically. Prabhupāda: Now they are going to take care of it, these brāhmaṇas. Dr. Patel: But he made a very bad show. The place where a man like... Prabhupāda: Washington. Dr. Patel: Washington and people like Jefferson. He has polluted that seat. They must change that seat. Change the White House wholesale. The greatest curr on this most, I mean, enlightened people. Americans are very enlightened because their forefathers were enlightened and they came there as pilgrims. Those, what do they call them? Puritans, you see. They are most different from Aussies. The Australians who are criminals of England. Prabhupāda: If Nixon is a Jew? Dr. Patel: No, no. He's a Christian. No Jew can be, serve as the president of that country. Not only Jew but not only Catholic. Trivikrama: Well, some Catholics. Kennedy was... Dr. Patel: Only Kennedy was the first Catholic to be. Otherwise till Kennedy came, there was no Catholic ever elected. [break] Methodist. Even in material world, he was a fool the way he carried out... (laughing) But sir, one thing: about the freedom of America. I have my hat off that that man could be knocked off by ordinary paper reporter. That would not happen in any other country. Prabhupāda: Therefore I asked to take the government. Dr. Patel: That would not happen in any other country but America, freedom par excellence. Prabhupāda: There is possibility of Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees will take the government. Dr. Patel: That can be possible because of freedom, essential freedom of that country. Prabhupāda: Therefore we are being checked that "They may not grow." One politician has said that "If they grow like this, in ten years they'll take the government." Trivikrama: Someone has said that? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He said. Some politician has said that "The Hare Kṛṣṇa people are growing so rapid, like epidemic." He has said. "And if they grow like this within ten years they may take our government." He has remarked it. Dr. Patel: Good for them. The amount of money that has been wasted by America, that much money could have raised the standard of living the whole... Prabhupāda: Money is no consideration. Dr. Patel: Apart from that, sir, after all, it is a disease, poverty. If the people are out of poverty, then they will think about... First they'll think about God in the stomach. Then anywhere else. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is not the fact. Trivikrama: Out of poverty, then they'll think about wine and women. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: But that is in America, not... Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Everywhere. Dr. Patel: They have nothing to eat. You have seen the people living worse than the pigs. Trivikrama: We have seen in Japan. Now they are... Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Here also, all these politicians, they are after woman, meat and money. That's all. Trivikrama: Intoxication. Prabhupāda: Yes. One... Who was speaking, that in...? Some gentleman, he was Feroz(?) Gandhi's friend. He went to America, and he was eating beef like anything. Dr. Patel: Feroz? He was, Gandhi? Prabhupāda: Not... No, another Indian leader. He's a Marwari brāhmaṇa. Dr. Patel: Parsee would never eat beef, sir, huh? I heard they are... Prabhupāda: No, no. They are eating everything. Dr. Patel: They don't eat beef. Prabhupāda: I know. They are eating. They eat everything. I have seen one Parsee here in Bombay. He is chanting and getting one chicken cut throat by the man. And he's cutting. He gave in a paper and he took it away. And he's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. (Dr. Patel laughs loudly) Not Hare Kṛṣṇa, but... They have got all their chants. They have got their chanting. And I have seen their kitchen. It is more dirty than the toilet. Dr. Patel: Filthiest thing. Most dirty kitchens are the Muslims, very horrible thing. [break] Prabhupāda: ...day one Hindi gentleman came. He presented a picture, India's map, and all the whole India is full of avatāras: Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, this, that. This is India. Dr. Patel: They might be vibhūtis. You can call them, but... Prabhupāda: No, no, same thing. What vibhūtis they have got? Vibhūti of cheating, that's all. (laughter) Dr. Patel: They are vibhūti anyhow. Prabhupāda: They have got some vibhūti, how to cheat. This vibhūti they have got. Trivikrama: He was serious? He was serious about the map? Prabhupāda: Yes. He came to me to support this movement. What is this nonsense map, all cheaters pictured here? All Bhagavān, so many thousands of Bhagavāns. Vibhūti of cheating, that's all. Dr. Patel: Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvam. Prabhupāda: That vibhūti you have got also. Dr. Patel: Whatever it may be. Prabhupāda: All right. Even an ant has got. Dr. Patel: And that means if you... A bigger ant. There are in South America are some ants, you know, big. Prabhupāda: So that is... That... That gift is given by God to everyone. That does not mean one is Bhagavān. Jagadīśa: Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the cheating of cheats." Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Dr. Patel: The greatest number, sir, is being carried out here in Bombay some fifty miles away by this Muktananda Swami. His statue is being worship as, in place of God by... Prabhupāda: Sai Baba is also. Sai Baba is also doing, Satya Sai. Dr. Patel: They say that they are worshiping the guru as God. And why not as their guru? Prabhupāda: Rajaneesh. Rajneesh Dr. Patel: Rajneesh calls himself Bhagavān, that man. Prabhupāda: He also says, "Bhagavān." Dr. Patel: He's doing a sort of mass hypnotism to my mind. Psychologically I try to analyze him. Prabhupāda: Without analyzing, we take him as rogue. (laughter) That's all. Dr. Patel: You... I, being a scientist, try to analyze. This is my nature. Hari-śauri: Analysis is our nature, he said. Dr. Patel: I try to analyze you also, sir. I try to analyze you. Prabhupāda: No, our analysis is..., analytical process, is very simple. Dr. Patel: (laughing) I did it. And when I tried... Trivikrama: What is that process, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: The process: if one is not kṛṣṇa*-bhakta, he's a rogue. Hari-śauri: Duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama... Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Bas, finished analysis. As soon as we see that he is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he must be a rogue. That's all. Duṣkṛtina, sinful. That's all. *Dr. Patel: About this guru, they have taken it in a very wrong way. Ādya*-guru is Kṛṣṇa. That way you must go and worship that way. Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ... [break] ...see you are a rogue. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Trivikrama: So you have analyzed Śrīla Prabhupāda? Dr. Patel: I have. And I found that only bhakti is the real way. And to correct myself I read out all the Vaiṣṇava literature. I know this Sanskrit. And then I... *Prabhupāda: (aside) That's nice.(?) But first give me little cow's milk-cup*-and put little flat rice, not too much, and little fruit. That's all. Dr. Patel: So, sir, you are going by train to Kumbhamela. Prabhupāda: I like train. Dr. Patel: I would have accompanied you if you had gone by plane. I would lose lot of time going and coming. While coming back, you will come out to ten days, five days. *Prabhupāda: No. Train, first*-class is very comfortable. *Dr. Patel: But you see, after all, it takes upon the health, twenty*-four hours. Prabhupāda: No, no. Rather, doctor, your doc..., civil ser..., man, he said that, "Avoid plane." For me he had said. Trivikrama: Yes, because the atmosphere changes. Dr. Patel: But pressurized plane, no. On nonpressurized plane, not. Trivikrama: He is the knower of his body. Dr. Patel: All right. I had gone to Allahabad by train. (laughs) I had a very bad experience myself. *Prabhupāda: No, first*-class is... We reserved whole room, so no outsider there; will be very comfortable. We'll leave at... *Dr. Patel: First*-class have got now berths. *Prabhupāda: Four, we reserve four whenever... So two upper berths, two lower berths*-we sleep very comfortably-lock the door. And first-class... Dr. Patel: You'll be coming back after how many days? Prabhupāda: Maybe by March Dr. Patel: More. Fifteen days, no? Prabhupāda: No. More than that. Dr. Patel: It will be very, very cold. It will be very, very... You have to live in a tent... After all, tent is not really... Especially in March, January, cold is extreme. It is as cold as New York but more than that. Prabhupāda: I have got many invitations from friends. I can live in the home, house. That depends on my... Either in the tent or a mile, two miles away. *Dr. Patel: When you go out after leaving some friend's house, it will be very difficult to come out because of the cold. It will be as big as Bombay practically, this Kumbhamela, at least twenty*-five lakhs or thirty lakhs. It will be as big as cold. (?) Prabhupāda: No, space is also. Dr. Patel: I'll tell one of the friends to get me some water on that day. I'll take bath here. (laughs) I had gone to Allahabad once only. Prabhupāda: Only? Dr. Patel: We have not had the chance to go there. Delhi also. I've never gone to the Delhi also. Therefore it was calling me. I have seen Delhi in 1939. After that, I have never gone. Prabhupāda: My family life was in Allahabad, 1923 to 1936 continually. I used to come to Bombay from Allahabad for business. And I was staying in that hotel, Empire Hindu Hotel. Yes, very nice. At that time it was very nice. Dr. Patel: That is the hotel where Lokamane(?) Tilak died. He was staying there. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is modern standard, very nice hotel, still good hotel. Dr. Patel: Maharastrian brāhmaṇas keep very good hotel, still good hotel. They are not as greedy as the Gujaratis. That is a fact. *Prabhupāda: No, they are following principle. Now the Gujarati are also... And Maharastra, as good. This material civilization, meat*-eating, has spread like anything. Here we see, signboard: "Beefshop." We have seen. Dr. Patel: Was it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: There, there. Not here. They're on that side. Now they are not going to have any more beef now, from first of January. Cows are prohibited. Practically the whole India there will be no cow slaughter. That is why Vinoda Bhave was putting on a fast unto death. Still, he did not... Jagadīśa: I thought he killed bulls.(?) Dr. Patel: Bulls I included in cows. In place they will kill the buffaloes. The buffaloes are tamed. I don't know how in the world, sir, nowhere these buffaloes are tamed as it is in India. That means what height of these things Indian people must have reached to tame the wild animals. Prabhupāda: No, buffaloes are killed. Dr. Patel: No, no. What I mean to say, how buffaloes were tamed and milked and all these things, nowhere in the world other than India you'll see buffaloes, anywhere. Trivikrama: China. Dr. Patel: In China they have got? They have also? They have got, Arabian... In Africa, oh, you see a buffalo and bison... (?) Prabhupāda: Buffalo and bison different. Dr. Patel: But they are of the same degree or more wild. These are tame. This, sir, is a (Hindi). We call it (Hindi), the Sanskrit word, more or less. (pause) Prabhupāda: The coconut trees makes the place paradise, palm trees. *Dr. Patel: I've got the place, sir. When you came to my house my wife immediately planted twenty*-two coconuts all round. Now we get coconut, they'd be more than two thousand rupees per year. Prabhupāda: We are getting eight thousand. Dr. Patel: Yes, you are very good. Mine is hardly half an acre. Prabhupāda: The other day Girirāja told me we have got eight thousand. Hari-śauri: A year. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: But these coconuts, there would be more coconuts if they are looked after, all these, putting fertilizer on and watering them. All these houses behind here, they should be very planned out. This is all filthy. Behind it is very filthy. All these tenants will be segregated on one side, this side. And those living, they will be taking possession and... Prabhupāda: No, instead of taking one building, we are in possession of the all the buildings. Then that is my policy, that we must remain on the head of every building. Therefore I constructed. They cannot say absolutely it is tenant, no. Mixed. We are therefore occupying the head of every building, fixed building. Dr. Patel: There are some grand courts again (?) behind... Prabhupāda: That is one story. Otherwise we are on the head. They cannot monopolize the whole building. *Hari-śauri: We have a room in that building, anyway, in that one*-story building we're storing our books in. Prabhupāda: That we have taken now, that portion. We have paid for it. Dr. Patel: This place, that is the worth of that, this amount, was originally bought by Mr. Nyer, for this place, for... Prabhupāda: Two rupees, three rupees. Dr. Patel: That one which you bought. This, this, behind, where you call. Nine annas. Nine annas a square yard. Prabhupāda: Nine annas. (laughs) Dr. Patel: So my place, I bought in 1958 for fifteen rupees. Today it would take me four hundred, five hundred rupees a square yard, only within these two, three years, twenty years. Prabhupāda: Mr. Nair told me that "I have purchased not more than twenty rupees per square yard. So I shall charge you seventy rupees. It is my profit." Dr. Patel: Seventy rupees also you were wise as compared to the modern, present prices. Prabhupāda: No, at that time it was selling 150. And now it is more than four hundred. Our land is, only one crore, apart from these buildings. Therefore everyone is envious. Dr. Patel: Most envious men are... That fellow was himself burned by pouring kerosene on. He was a most envious fellow. He even once told me, "Why do you go there?" Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Dr. Patel: I used to treat his family. I was doctor. And I stopped treating him because he has not, he was so envious. He has got half a dozen girls in his family. I mean, where you will get... *Prabhupāda: In Kali*-yuga there is no marriage. Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Agreement. Trivikrama: By agreement. Dr. Patel: That is in Western countries. Prabhupāda: No, everywhere. India also. Dr. Patel: Marriages are brought in famine (?) and they are never broken down again. Prabhupāda: No, in big, big cities there is a marriage magistrate. You go... The boys and girls go and register there... Dr. Patel: Yes, but here... Prabhupāda: No, no. Marriage is, therefore, what is called primitive. Primitive. Modern marriage is primitive. Dr. Patel: I think also that is correct. In your time, sir, you never used to see the girl from the year before the marriage. In our times, we never used to see the girl before the marriage. I never saw my wife. She was in Mahatma Gandhi's āśrama, and I was on this side. I never saw. And we lived very happily. *Prabhupāda: No, in my marriage, it was already settled. So one day I was going in cycle. So my father*-in-law forcibly took me. (chuckles) Dr. Patel: So those marriage, sir, sometimes they never forget.(?) Prabhupāda: No. My wife was eleven years old. Dr. Patel: My wife was sixteen years when I married her. I was nineteen. Trivikrama: Eleven years! Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: That was nothing! They would marry at the age of five. *Prabhupāda: My mother*-in-law was married at seven years. And my father-in-law was eleven years. Dr. Patel: A friend of mine was telling together in the high school, and he married when he was a boy of eleven years a girl of nine. And he was sleeping when he was... Prabhupāda: Even Dr. Rajendraprasad, he was married at eight years. Dr. Patel: Eight years. Rajendraprasad, first president of India. Prabhupāda: And the marriage party was waiting, and he was sleeping, and when the opportune moment came, "Get up! Get up! Now you have to sit down in the..." Dr. Patel: I think Nehru married at the age of eighteen years. *Prabhupāda: He was up*-to-date, English-returned. He was Gandhi's student. Dr. Patel: These boys make love and marry. And we marry and make love. (laughs) This is the background of Indian womanhood, this religion. That keeps up the sacredness of the Hindu marriage. Prabhupāda: No, everywhere there is religion, in Europe, America. Church. Church. Marriage was taken in church. Dr. Patel: The Catholic marriages are indissolvable. They can't remarry. Now they have done it. Prabhupāda: Now you have also done in India, so many. *Dr. Patel: We have got a government law, that sue the fellow for dissolution. Hindus. Mr. Nehru has done*-great service to his community. (japa) [break] Prabhupāda: ...aerodrome is near. Dr. Patel: I reach aerodrome from my place in three minutes. And you (indistinct). (discussion of airplanes and helicopters) Prabhupāda: Chambur, I stayed there for a week. So almost on head, aeroplanes. Dr. Patel: They come this way and they, on the head on Santa Cruz. Few of them are like that... [break] ...New York. Prabhupāda: Kennedy airport? There are two, three airports. [break] ...forget spiritual body. Next time he is going to be dog. That he does not know. Dr. Patel: (laughs) Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, sir. Even dog has in his day. There is the dominance of God. *Prabhupāda: No, no. We don't hate dog. We say that this life is meant for getting release from this repetition of birth and death. Otherwise punaḥ punaś carvita... Either you become a dog or a hog or a man or a god. The business is āhāra*-nidra-bhaya-maithuna... [break] (bell rings) *Prabhupāda: That one thing is that this sort of publicity and this, this dress, is very nice. Girls who have no husband, they should dress like this, not attractive dress. A dress sometimes attracts the opposite sex. And women are... By nature they dress very nicely. (laughs) That is everywhere*-to attract. The nature is that they are dependent, woman by nature. Do you admit or not? Pālikā: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And the Western countries, they have been taught to become independent. That is artificial. That is all artificial. So, woman by nature... Manu*-saṁhitā says, na striyaṁ svatantram arhati: "Women should not be given independence." They must be protected by the father, by husband, and by elderly sons. They are not independent. No independence. Even Kuntī, the mother of such big, big sons, she was not independent. The sons were sent to the exile; *mother also went. Sītā... The father*-in-law never said that "You also go with your husband." No. He requested Rāmacandra that "Your stepmother wants that You should be exiled. So please accept it. Accept this." And Rāmacandra said that "You are not exiled." But Sītā said, "I may not be exiled, but I am dependent on You. If You go to the forest I must..." You see? Just see, dependent. Jagadīśa: Most of the women, or at least many of the women in our society, have neither father, husband or sons. *Prabhupāda: It is very precarious condition. So we want to give them, all of them, "Come and live." But when you come here, if you get husband we have no objection. But don't canvass. That is not good. And that is making our sannyāsīs fall down. Of course, it is difficult, that young men, young women living, intermingling. But it is... Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to reform everything. Even there there is such desire it should be checked. And that can be checked if one is strictly Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise not possible. So these things should be... Because the Kali-yuga, the more it advances, people will be suffering in so many ways. And the only solace is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, only solution. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he (she) doesn't require husband. He (she) does not require. He... She knows that "Kṛṣṇa is my protector. Why shall I artificially seek after father or...?" And what protection, for a few days either the father or the son or the husband may give? Real protection is Kṛṣṇa. This is temporary, but because we have got this material body we require some. In this way... And this kind of hypocrisy*-they have taken sannyāsa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyāsī anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyāsīs. And those who have fallen down, let them marry, live like respectable gentlemen. I have no objection. After all, young man, fallen down-that's all right. It is by nature's way. But marry that girl. That I am insisting from the very beginning, that no friendly liaison. If you want, get one nice... They are, all of them qualified. Get one wife and live like a gentleman. Similarly woman. Live with one husband fastidiously, with children. What is the wrong there? We have so many gṛhastha devotees. You have got children. Pradyumna has got child. Gopāla has... Live with husband, wife. There is no restriction for husband and wife. But what is this nonsense that you take sannyāsa and make relation with...? This should be completely stopped. And in our, this campus, actually those who are eager to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they should live, nobody else. We give free food, free apartment, cloth and everything. "Come here. Live. As far as possible we shall provide." But this is specially meant for bhagavad-bhajana. Attend ārati, early rise in the morning, attend the functions, take prasādam... In this way everything will be reorganized, not loose things. Then what is the use of...? We have got such a... And so far the tenants are concerned, if it is possible, give them money; let them go. One, two, some have gone, and others... This whole campus should be for devotees. We don't want tenant. And it should be developed for that purpose, for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Either here or outside India or anywhere, this principle should be followed. And this hodgepodge association, society, is not the... Let it be very pure. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā. That one moon is sufficient. There is no need of millions of stars. Hm? What do you think? One moon gives light. So, in this way, if we can make one person really Kṛṣṇa conscious, then our mission is successful. What is the use of millions of stars twinkling? What is called? Twinkling? You should discuss all these things, but you... These two brothers should be, P. Bannerji and M. Bannerji... The address is there. You can write as secretary, "Dear Sir, I am instructed by His Divine Grace Prabhupāda to thank you for your postcard dated such and such. And we condole for your bereavement in the absence of your father late, Principal N. Bannerji. You know that your father was intimately related with Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he assisted him with some money, loan. Your father attempted to repay it, but he could not. Now, after his death, you are worthy sons..." Jagadīśa: I'm getting behind, Śrīla Prabhupāda. "Now, after his death..." Prabhupāda: "You are good sons behind him. You have observed the death ceremony very pompously." Jagadīśa: "Death ceremony..." Prabhupāda: "Of your father." Jagadīśa: "Very pompously"? Prabhupāda: "Pompously. And, why not repay the debts of your father so that he may live very peacefully in his next life? A line in reply will much oblige us. Yours sincerely." You sign, "Secretary to His Divine...," as you... This man (laughs) over there was a pākā thief, and his sons also. Jagadīśa: He was a pākā thief? Prabhupāda: He cheated me. Ten years before I gave him about one thousand rupees. He never paid me. And these sons are also number, pākā, and they are observing the death ceremony. What you have written? Jagadīśa: "Dear Sirs: I am instructed by His Divine Grace Śrīla Prabhupāda to thank you for your postcard dated such and such, and we condole for your bereavement in the absence of your father..." Prabhupāda: Eh? "I am? I am?" What is it? Jagadīśa: "And we condole for your bereavement in the absence of your father, the late such and such." Prabhupāda: Principal N. Bannerji. Jagadīśa: "You know that your father was intimately related with Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he assisted him with..." Prabhupāda: "And Prabhupāda assisted him." Jagadīśa: Okay. "And Śrīla Prabhupāda assisted him with some money loan. Your father attempted to repay it, but he could not. Now, after his death, you are good sons behind him. You have observed the death ceremony very pompously. Why not repay the debts of your father so that he may live very peacefully in his next life? A line in reply will much oblige us. Yours sincerely, Secretary..." *Prabhupāda: Is that all right? Let us see how worthy sons they are. Everyone knows. They know. That Gauracandra Gosāi, Rādhā*-Dāmodara, he knows. And I have got letters and everything... I... If I go to the court... And who is going to the court? I could have gone to the court, long, long ago. I never liked to go to the court. In my business life also, if somebody did not pay, I never go to the court. Bother... "To push good money after bad money." The money which is lost, and... And what about that money order? Jagadīśa: I have instructed Girirāja to do it this morning. Prabhupāda: Oh, again "instructed." No instruction. I want to see the receipt immediately. Jagadīśa: I told him. Prabhupāda: You told him but he does not do. Jagadīśa: It's still early. As soon as... Prabhupāda: Early... When it will be late, then it will be not done. Immediately do it. When I am giving him, it must reach timely to save the situation. So go and do this first. [break] This is our latest publication. [break] *Indian (1): They should see the Almighty. They should repeat it. They should recite the name. Physically, they should be strong and stout and be the brothers of everyone. There should be a brotherhood. Gopāla Prabhu has got some grasping capacity. He can understand something. We know the principles in the life according to Bhagavad*-gītā, Mahābhārata, Rāmāyaṇa, Bhāgavata. Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. Indian (1): Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. That means everyone must be firm. Prabhupāda: Tam abhyarcya. Not only simply dṛḍhatva, but karmaṇā tam abhyarcya. Otherwise it is zero. Karmaṇā mānavaḥ tam abhyarcya. If you give up that tam abhyarcya, then it is useless. So where is that abhyarcya? Indian (1): It is devotion. To forget ourselves. Prabhupāda: No, forget ourself not... If you forget yourself, then how you'll work? You must know what is your position. Indian (1): No, no, forget ourself, that means we have to forget the passions and selfishness. *Prabhupāda: Passion, that is base principle. I mean to say actually you have to remember yourself, what is your position, not forget yourself. Your position, as it is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mamaivāṁśo [Bg. 15.7]-"I am the part and parcel of God." You cannot forget this. If you forget this, then everything is... Indian (1): No, no. That is... Not to forget that, only to forget the bad things... Prabhupāda: That you cannot forget bad things unless you are engaged in good things. Indian (1): Good things. Correct, correct. Correct. Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. If you do not get good engagement, you cannot give up bad engagement. So similarly, if you do not forget your constitutional position, then the bad things cannot be forgotten. So our position is that we are part and parcel of God. Indian (1): Of the Almighty. Prabhupāda; : Yes. Just like this finger is the part and parcel of my body. So this finger, I say, "Finger come here. Itch here," so it is doing that. And if it is... If it cannot do, then it is diseased. If there is some painless, painfulness or some sore, then immediately I cannot do it. So that means I am part and parcel of God. If I cannot serve God, then I am diseased. That is material condition. So material condition... Suppose this finger is diseased. So you poke up, applying some ointment and going to the doctor. This is one business. And when it is cured, when it is actually engaged in service, that is healthy state. So this social work without serving God is just like applying ointment to the diseased part of the... It has no value, practical value. If it... It has got value, provided it is cured, to serve the whole body. So if the finger is not so cured to serve the whole body, then it remains diseased. You go on applying ointment; *it has no use. Similarly, to serve humanity means if you can raise him to the consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then, then, then it is right. And if you keep him in ignorance-you go on all kinds of human service*-it is all useless. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Indian (1): That is the philosophical and spiritual position. *Prabhupāda: That is real position. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. If you are under the law of birth and death, then it is useless, the same thing, either you become cat or dog or god or anything. Ābrahma*-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16]. So even if you take your birth in the highest planetary system, Brahmaloka, still, the birth, death, old age is there. *Indian (1): Kṣīṇe puṇye martya*-lokam... *Prabhupāda: Martya*-lokaṁ viśanti. So disease continues. Indian (1): It is a circle. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian (1): And that man himself accepts all these things... Prabhupāda: That is going on... Indian (1): ...through his karma. Prabhupāda: ...that they are karmīs, they are working to go to the heavenly planet. And what he'll do? What he will benefit? Indian (1): Ārto jijñāsur arthārthī jñānī ca bharatarṣabha. In lakhs and lakhs, people there are one..., it is very difficult to find a jñānī. Prabhupāda: No, jñānī... One can become jñānī in a moment, provided he wants. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. So jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. So if one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, he's jñānavān. Otherwise he's a rascal. So if you don't teach how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then he remains a rascal. That's all. Indian (1): It is our duty to teach, to educate the people. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is education, that "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Otherwise he's not education. Indian (1): To guide them how to surrender the Almighty. That is our duty. Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is Almighty. And Almighty is canvassing, and people are refusing. Almighty says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. So here is Almighty, but who is teaching that "Here is Almighty. Surrender to Him"? Indian (1): That is asuri sampatti. Prabhupāda: This is going on. Indian (1): Due to asuri sampatti, people refuse. *Prabhupāda: Refusal or not, (?) people do not teach also, that "Here is Kṛṣṇa, the Almighty, the Supreme. You surrender here." And the Almighty is canvassing, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām. But they'll not do that. And neither their so-called leaders will teach them to do that. So this is going on. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You become a guru." Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "You become a guru and deliver them." So "I am a fool. I have no education. How can I become a guru?" So answer is "No, no. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]." If you simply advise people what Kṛṣṇa has said, then you become guru. But if you manufacture your ideas, then you are not a guru. Indian (1): He has to teach what is the message of the Lord. *Prabhupāda: This is the message, "Surrender unto Me." The message... God is canvassing, that "Surrender unto Me." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "Give up all this nonsense engagement. Surrender unto Me." But they are not doing that. Mūḍha. Duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ na māṁ prapadyante. They're forgetting the real business, and they are engaged in some superfluous nonsense business. Indian (1): Succumb to some passions and all this. Prabhupāda: This is going on. Indian (1): That is by ignorance. Prabhupāda: Now we are preaching the Kṛṣṇa's words only, and we have become successful all over the world. Indian (1): Yes, all over the world. *Prabhupāda: And they go, the so*-called yogis, swamis go. They, it enters into this ear, goes out this ear. That's all. No effect. "Bag bhak."(?) (Hindi) ...effective. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. (Hindi) "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord." Indian (1): It's a wonderful thing. Prabhupāda: "And you just surrender unto Him." And anyone who is doing, he's getting the perfect wisdom. Indian (1): Hundreds and thousands people are listening to the message of the Lord. Prabhupāda: We are selling these books, daily five to six lakhs, daily. What is the message? "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." That's all. In one week, how many books you have sold? Jagadīśa: In one week we sold 700,000 books. Seven lakhs. Prabhupāda: Seven lakhs' books in one week. Indian (1): In one week. Wonderful thing. Prabhupāda: Religious books selling, seven lakhs of books in a week, there is no history. Indian (1): There is no another example. *Prabhupāda: And where we are selling? Where Christians are there. They are not Hindus, that they'll read Bhagavad*-gītā and Bhāgavata and Cai... They're all Christian, Jews, Muslims. In Muslim country we are also selling. Yes. Indian (1): Iran, Pakistan. Prabhupāda: Iran, Pakistan, Egypt. Trivikrama: Even Chinese. Prabhupāda: Chinese, yes. And Chinese... Now we have begun in Russia also. Indian (1): Let me see Russian edition. [break] Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa... [break] Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Indian (1): No, we are prepared to... Prabhupāda: Nobody is prepared. Indian (1): Myself is prepared, our Kali... (?) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Trivikrama: All night he is translating. At night he is translating all night. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...machine. At night we translate. In daytime they type, and they send to the press, and the books are printed. Then they sell. So in this way I am bringing ten lakhs of rupees per month and investing in constructing these temples. Trivikrama: Many temples. All over India. Indian (1): All over India. In Mathurā, Vṛndāvana, there is something going on. Prabhupāda: And that is finished. Our temple is the biggest and the nicest. Indian (1): Idea is the nice. Devotion is the biggest. So everything naturally... Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Indian (1): (Hindi) I will advise my people... Prabhupāda: Why advise? Why not come practically? Indian (1): Why not practically they should come? Prabhupāda: Advise gratis, that will not do. (Hindi) ...temple... We have spent fifty lakhs of rupees. There is very big guesthouse behind the temple. Indian (1): To continue all the mission and... That is... Prabhupāda: All over the world. Indian (1): All over the world. *Prabhupāda: We have got 110 Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temples all over the world. Where is that...? Vraja? Jagadīśa: Brijabasi Spirit. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Our New Vrindaban... [break] ...that we must give something substantial. [break] This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. (Hindi-break) Indian (1): Now it has been introduced, Hindi also. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You saw Hindi... (breaks)... Bhagavad*-gītā, Bhāgavata. (Hindi) languages. Bengali. (Hindi-breaks) ...we received. We have recently received one telegram. Indian (1): Those are big volumes. It takes time to read it, to go through it. And just a small booklet, a man can keep it in his pocket. Prabhupāda: We have got three classes. Medium class and the... Indian (1): Volume. Prabhupāda: Volume, no. Hardbound big books, and small books. Besides that, magazines. So in one week what we have sold, they have sent one telegram from Los Angeles. Jagadīśa: December 17 through 24th. That's Christmas week. They sold 117,664 big books. Prabhupāda: 117,000. Jagadīśa: One lakh, seventeen thousand in one week. Then medium books like *Īśopaniṣad*, they sold 90,737. And smaller books, like this, 63,332. And Back to Godheads, like this magazine, four lakhs, 37,420. Trivikrama: One week. Indian (1): In one week. Very wonderful thing. There is no other comparison for such a sale. Prabhupāda: We are the number one publisher of religious, philosophical... Indian (1): Printing and writing attractive, everything is such a nice... That man is attracted, and he goes through the books and writes... [break] *Devotee: So now in America we are slowly starting to understand by Śrīla Prabhupāda's mercy what is the real purpose of Bhagavad*-gītā, real purpose of yoga. Unfortunately we are finding in India people have misunderstood Gītā. And... Indian (1): Misunderstood *Gītā*. Now even they are not study. You see, there is no study at all. It is an unfortunate thing here. In our educational system, the slave system coming from British regime, still it is not changed. Unfortunately, whatever change we see, that change goes antireligion. So the present generation is suffering. Prabhupāda: Change means we have lost our culture. Indian (1): They have lost culture, yes. Prabhupāda: This is change. Devotee: So Śrīla Prabhupāda is offering the real Indian culture... Indian (1): Yes, that is correct. We have to fulfill all these things. We have to teach them, we have to guide them, advise them, make them study, for that purpose conducting some classes in Sanskrit in the Hindu community... [break] Prabhupāda: He has allowed us to go to the United... [break] ...assembly to enlighten them. So we, are going there. Recent letter? Where is...? (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 8, 1977, Bombay Prabhupāda: Some sādhu went up there.(?) Dr. Patel: No, no. I mean Janeṣu abhijñeṣu. Abhijñaḥ. Prabhupāda: Abhijñeṣu. Abhijñaḥ means those who are in knowledge. Abhijñāta. *Dr. Patel: That means sat*-saṅga. Instead of doing sat-saṅga, people go to Kumbha Mela... (laughs) *Prabhupāda: No. Kumbha Mela is sat*-saṅga. If you go to Kumbha Mela to find out a man of knowledge, then your Kumbha Mela is right. Otherwise, yad-buddhiḥ śalile sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. If one thinks that this śalila, the water, to take bath in the water, is Kumbha Mela, he is a go-kharaḥ. But the real..., that "Now there are assembly of so many saintly persons. Let me take advantage of their knowledge." Then he is intelligent. [break] ...of highly learned saintly persons. People should take advantage. Dr. Patel: To bring people together on discussion there are different groups, no? Prabhupāda: Still, you can go to different groups of saintly person. Different groups means brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti [SB 1.2.11]. There are some yogis, some jñānīs, some bhaktas. They are of the same category, little difference. Otherwise... Dr. Patel: By different ways they have reached the same goal. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti. Some of them are brahma*-parāyana; *some of them paramātma*-parāyana; *some of them are bhakta. It doesn't matter. But they're all spiritual. They have no interest in this material world. Tattva*-vit. Tattva-vit. They know what is truth. They say that Kumbha Mela is... That spot is very sacred because Mohinī-mūrti brought the nectar there. Dr. Patel: But in India, Kumbha Mela... Prabhupāda: Kumbha, that kumbha, means the waterpot. Dr. Patel: There are different places round the Nasi. Now the last year and... Prabhupāda: So might have been all these places. Dr. Patel: Nasi and Ujjain and this, three places. *Prabhupāda: How everything is nice. See the ap, sky, how viśala (vast) and how nice by Kṛṣṇa. Pūrṇam idam. [break] The vṛkṣa*-yoni is condemned. By Kṛṣṇa's arrangement the vṛkṣas are also so nicely set up, it becomes beautiful. Dr. Patel: They're all the representatives of Kṛṣṇa's creation. This is perfect. Prabhupāda: Pūrṇam. Pūrṇam idam. Pūrṇam adaḥ [*Īśopaniṣad*, Invocation]. Dr. Patel: It was a challenge to one scientist who taught nonsense... Prabhupāda: Well... What...? Dr. Patel: One man challenged by me, a student, you know, "Sir, you said there is no God. Can you make a living cell even of a..., not of, much less animal, of a plant even?" And he looked with open mouth. "Can you make a single cell living? Cell of. Not of the whole tree." That is nature. That is God. That is Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs. 5.35]. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntarastham. Paramāṇu. Āṇu. Then paramāṇu means smaller than the atom. Six paramāṇus makes one āṇu. Atomic dimension is the combination of six paramāṇus. So in that paramāṇu also the Lord is there. Dr. Patel: He made it, and then He entered into it. That is what the Veda says. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Antara*-stha. Yac-chakti... There is verse. The Paramātmā. Paramātmā is there. The whole human life is meant for understanding all this and glorifying the Lord. And they are wasting the life by imitating the hog. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujaṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. Viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ means stool; *bhujā means eating. Yac*-chaktir eṣa... What is that? There is a verse. Eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭiṁ yac-chaktir asti jagad-aṇḍa-cayā yad-antaḥ, aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu... [Bs. 5.35]. *Dr. Patel: Jagad*-aṇḍa-koṭi. *Prabhupāda: Ekaḥ apy asya. Eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad*-aṇḍa-koṭim. They create millions of universes. Dr. Patel: But the standard of creation is the same, sir. That I believe of life. Wherever you see, it's the same. That is the greatness of God, that there is no change. Prabhupāda: So without that... Dr. Patel: If you are an amoeba or a highest evolved man, the system of life is the same. Prabhupāda: Without... Dr. Patel: That is the wonder of biology and science. That is why we wonder how great God has made the creation. That is where we feel the presence of God, or the real scientist. [break] Prabhupāda: They believe. Some rascals, they say there is no God. Dr. Patel: This Khorana, our Indian scientist... He did this work and he felt aghast: "O God!" Because he had a background of... Prabhupāda: Hindu. Dr. Patel: A religiosity there. Some fellows in America, they talk nonsense about this science: "It's all the chemicals." They believe in what we call that dialectical materialism: It is a material arrangement which produces consciousness. It is not the consciousness which governs the material. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...the brain is conscious? [break] If you want subsidence of anartha, bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje. Anartham upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasyājāna... These rascals, they do not know. Ajānataḥ. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām [SB 1.7.6]. Therefore Vyāsadeva made this sātvata-saṁhitā for these rascals and fools. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. This is the beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The origin of everything.... Anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa.... [break] There is a very big.... What is called? Conspiracy against us. Dr. Patel: Here and America. Yesterday I read about that cutting paper. Prabhupāda: No, no. One secret letter they have... How they are making conspiracy. Dr. Patel: By the church. Prabhupāda: Not by the church. Dr. Patel: By the society. Prabhupāda: Now they are determined to cut down this movement. Dr. Patel: They don't like their boys, I mean, getting a better understanding of the life and living a pious life. They want them to be... Prabhupāda: Not here! Dr. Patel: Here it is different, sir. We can't compare India with those people. Here we see still there is some signs of... Prabhupāda: I wanted to start this movement. I requested so many friends, "Give me your one son." Nobody. "Swamiji, (Hindi)." Jagadīśa: What does that mean? Prabhupāda: "What will be benefit by this if I make my son a Vaiṣṇava or a brāhmaṇa?" Dr. Patel: No, but Vaiṣṇavas are born in the family. They did not become sādhus. Why should they? Prabhupāda: No, no, they do not give much importance to the movement. Jagadīśa: Haṁsadūta Mahārāja was describing that while they were traveling kīrtana, in one village one of the village boys wanted to join them. So he was living with them, and they were arrested by the village people and detained, and the boy was sent home, because of the same thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: Here in India also. Dr. Patel: What is that conspiracy, sir, in America? Prabhupāda: They are planning how to stop this movement in so many ways. Dr. Patel: By some sort of physical force or something like... Prabhupāda: Not physical, but... What is the idea? Jagadīśa: Propaganda. Prabhupāda: Propaganda. Dr. Patel: The Americans, I mean, always doing like that. There are lot of bad persons. *Prabhupāda: Well, there are good and bad every place. Most of them are... Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu [Bg. 7.3]. This is Kali*-yuga. Dr. Patel: But I have read some letters that some of the university professors of philosophy, many of them are in your favor. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, many. All intelligent, they are in favor. They're also grouping to defend us. They are also grouping. Dr. Patel: That is more important. The fools may say anything, and dogs may bark. Prabhupāda: One priest, very famous priest all over the world, is in our favor, Mr. Cox. Who is that? Jagadīśa: Cox, yes. Prabhupāda: He is determined to defend this movement. Jagadīśa: From Harvard. Prabhupāda: Harvard University. *Dr. Patel: In fact the Christianity is a bhāgavata*-dharma... Prabhupāda: No, it... Dr. Patel: ...in a way. Prabhupāda: We have admitted. But Christianity has fallen. Here is the real religious system. Dr. Patel: They have fallen into the trap. They have forgotten Christ's teachings. [break] What about me... You'll get up on horse? That is enlightenment... [break] Prabhupāda: Above your and our. Dr. Patel: That's right. That is... All religious scriptures are above, undoubtedly.(?) It's meant for the humanity in general. And the Christianity is meant for humanity. Christ died for the humanity, not for a particular race... [break] *Prabhupāda: Woman's nature is the same everywhere. In spite of your women being so elevated, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has said, "You don't trust them." Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja*-kuleṣu ca. That means nature is the same. Dr. Patel: It is a system of custom. Prabhupāda: And Urvaśī was explaining Purūravā about woman's nature... Dr. Patel: That sanctity of fact, not to us. Prabhupāda: Fortunately, our men cannot have sex cult even up to the point of death. Dr. Patel: What I mean to say is that we have... Prabhupāda: Our, if you say, "our," so if one is sticking to the sex cult up to the point of death, he's not "our." Dr. Patel: Sex cult... Prabhupāda: Sex cult, yes, gṛhamedhī. Who stick into family life, that is sex cult. It has no other meaning. It is a concession of sex. To remain in household life means a concession of sex. *Devotee: So now you are sixty*-five... Dr. Patel: No, that is not sex. I am prepared to oppose you for hear. Prabhupāda: No, I don't hear you. I hear the śāstra. Dr. Patel: No, but this is also śāstra. Please let me... *Prabhupāda: Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukham [SB 7.9.45]. No, maithuna, but maithuna products. You are attached to your sons and daughters. That is maithuna product. Dr. Patel: That way we are attached to our bodies. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... Either maithuna... Just like Gandhi. The same thing, a bigger scale. Bigger scale. Maithuna product. Dr. Patel: Our body is also maithuna product. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but that is the first instruction: "Don't be attached to this body." So if we remain attached up to the point of death to the maithuna or maithuna product, then the same illusion. That is said. Dr. Patel: So you have to leave the body consciousness and become soul conscious perpetually. It is... Prabhupāda: And that soul consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. So... But in the soul consciousness... *Dr. Patel: Becoming brahma*-bhūtaḥ, you have to worship Parabrahman Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Cent percent Kṛṣṇa consciousness is liberation. Hitvā 'nyathā... *Dr. Patel: Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. Prabhupāda: That is beginning. *Dr. Patel: He gets the highest bhakti. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu... [Bg. 18.54]. *Prabhupāda: No, Brahma*-bhūtaḥ... Where is that brahma-bhūtaḥ? *Dr. Patel: Then he mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate param. Then he gets the real... Otherwise body conscious people cannot do the bhakti without becoming brahma-bhūtaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Brahma*-bhūtaḥ. Everyone is śarīra-bhūtaḥ. *Dr. Patel: That is what I was telling you. And everyone was śarīre kuṇape tri*-dhātuke. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So unless one is brahma*-bhūtaḥ, there is no question of advancing in spiritual life. [break] ...parihṛtya kartam. Dr. Patel: No, that is right, sir. But there are... *Prabhupāda: Yes. So the gṛha*-vrata... If we keep ourself gṛha-vrata, then either guru or personally or by sat-saṅga, nothing will help us. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām. Why? Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Chewing the chewed. [break] Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśaya ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. If one is trying to be happy by material adjustment, that is durāśayā. It will never be.... [break] Yāvan na ghṛnita mahīyasāṁ pada-rājobhiṣekam. Yavan na ghrnita. Bhāgavata śloka, each word, each line, concentrated. Vyāsadeva's contribution, last thing; *by Nārada's upadeśa. And this is the only means of anarthopaśamam. You have created anarthas, and human life is meant for arthadam. But.... Hare Kṛṣṇa. So therefore real Vedic civilization is that gradually we have to give up this gṛha-vrata position. At one time you must voluntarily give up. Although I do not like to give up, still, by the order of the śāstra, one has to give up. Pañcasordhvam vanam vrajet. Vrajet means compulsory. Just like we accept so many things compulsory, similarly, to give up family attachment after fiftieth year, that is compulsory. We therefore invite all the compulsory, what is called, renouncement. Of course, nobody can go to the forest. That is not possible. They are not trained up as a brahmacārī. So this Hare Kṛṣṇa Land-"Come on." All the vānaprasthas, they can live in this land or Vṛndāvana, Hyderabad, simply for bhagavad-bhajana and no other purpose, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ [Brs. 1.1.11], making all other purposes zero. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Jñāna and karma, these are bondage. Karmī, jñānī, yogi*-they are especially bewildered. They want something, but still they say that "I am now renounced." So long there is want, he cannot be renounced. Renounced means no more want. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi: "I am fully satisfied now. I don't want any..." Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. "I have got such a nice thing that I have no aspiration for getting any more." That is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. Svamin kṛtartho 'smi. So this is Vedic civilization, that at a certain stage one should forget that "I belong to this family, I belong to this society, I belong to this nation, and so on," there are. Sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu. Sva-dhīḥ: "My own men, my kinsmen." This is sva-dhīḥ. And beginning from kalatrādiṣu. Kalatra means wife. Wife is the beginning of expansion. From wife, child; from child to grandchild; *grandchild to great*-grandchild; and so on, so on. Stri means "which increases." Kalatrādiṣu. (Hindi) Indian man: Swamiji, I get two thoughts. Number one: having acquired a family, I am willing to renounce, but would I not be running away from the responsibility, in the name of Lord Kṛṣṇa, for the bringing up and educating the children? And second thing... *Prabhupāda: You cannot educate, neither you bring. This is māyā. Do you think... Do you think that only in your presence your children will be happy? There are... Just see here in the corner, the father, mother, and the child is always, twenty*-four hours, crying. The father, mother, is there. They are poor men, they are taking care, but still, the child is unhappy; *it is crying twenty*-four hours. There are many you'll find. So does it mean that in the presence of father, mother, a child is happy? Everyone is being conducted by his destiny. The father, mother, may be there or may not be there; *his destiny will go on. This is the law of nature. You see here. Do you mean to say, because that man is poor, he's not taking care of the child? Why the child is crying twenty*-four hours? So if one child is made to cry by his destiny, even in the presence of his father, mother, he has to cry. Nobody can make him happy. So this is called illusion, that "I am doing." Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. A rascal, he thinks like that. But it is not the fact. The fact is prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ. His destiny or her destiny is to suffer. So even though father, mother... Suppose a rich man's son is sick. He has engaged good physician, good doctor. Does it mean that he will guarantee life? Then what is the principle? Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau. Prahlāda Mahārāja said that "It is not a fact that when the children are under the protection of father and mother, he's secure." Tvad-upekṣitānām: "If You neglect, that 'This child must cry; this child must die,' then even by the greatest care of the father and mother, he will die." So what is the use, saying that your duty...? Duty? That is māyā. Indian man: Second thing is... *Prabhupāda: No, first of all you understand this. Then bring second thing. That you have no duty. Your only duty is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. That is your only duty. But because you are under the mental platform, you are creating duties, so but that also must be finished after certain age. That is compulsory, that "You are very good, responsible man. All right, do your duty up to this. No more duty. No more duty." So this "duty, no duty," this is our creation. We are under fully control of the nature. But we have created our mental concoction: "This is duty. This is good. This is bad." That is our mano-dharma. Real dharma is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is real dharma. And everything is mano-dharma, mental creation. Therefore the Bhāgavata in the beginning it is said that dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra: [SB 1.1.2] "This false dharma is rejected." These are all false dharmas. Real dharma is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. But it takes time. Therefore sat-saṅga is required. But actually real dharma is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and do everything... Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. What Kṛṣṇa wants, we must know it and do it. And this is real dharma. Dr. Patel: How to know it? *Prabhupāda: You can know from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā. It is open to everyone. If you cannot understand, then go to guru. He will explain to you. "And how to know it?" You cannot say. "Keep to the left" is there. You cannot say that "I did not know the law." You have deviated. Why you have gone to the right? The signboard is there, "Keep to the left." You have gone to the right; you are criminal, must be punished. So Kṛṣṇa comes personally, and He is giving instruction. How can you say, "How to know?" This is criminal. This is criminal to say that you do not know what to do; *you do not see God. God has given the law. There is no question how to know. Know it! Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. Tad viddhi. Know it! Why you are neglecting? Tad viddhi. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. That, if you do not... What is called? Ignorance of law is no excuse. You cannot say in the court, "Sir, I did not know the law." Aiye. You know or not know; you have violated the law; you must be punished. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Trivikrama: Once you know, then everyone is benefited. Your family is not neglected. *Prabhupāda: The ignorance of law... Why? Why this human form of life? To know. Why you do not try to know it? Then you must be punished. Kṛṣṇa said, aśraddhadhānāḥ puruṣā. "If you are neglectful to know," dharmasyāsya parantapa, "this dharma, this science, this duty, what I am giving..." Aśraddadhānāḥ: "Eh! Bhagavad-gītā is..." Aśraddadhānāḥ. There is no śraddhā. Rascals. "Then the result will be mām aprāpya. He does not get Me." Then what is next? Nivartante: "He goes back." Where? Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani: [Bg. 9.3] "Again in the cycle of birth and death, birth and death." Again, after millions and millions of years, he'll come, again get the chance of human body, another chance to know. So this is the chance to know. You cannot expect the dog will know, the cat will know. You have got human being. You must know. The signboard, "Keep to the left," is meant for the human being. If the dog goes from right to the left, he is not to be punished, because he has no knowledge. This is common sense. But you cannot neglect. You are human being. You cannot say, "I did not see the signboard. I did not know the law. Therefore, by chance, I have violated." No. No "by chance." You must be punished. This is the responsibility of... Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, therefore, sings, hari hari bifale, janama goṅāinu: "I have wasted my time." How? Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā*-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā: "I got this human form of life. I did not know what is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa." Jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu: "Knowingly, I have taken poison." A human being, if he does not become Kṛṣṇa conscious, that means knowingly, he is taking poison, and he must die. Jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu. Sometimes I do not know what is poison. Just like child does not know. He may take. But he'll not be excused. Even a child takes poison, it does not mean the nature's law will excuse him. No. But.... What to speak of child, a human being, if he takes poison, jāniyā śuniyā, then what is to be...? So in the human form of life, you cannot neglect the instruction of Bhagavān. Then you'll be punished. Severe punishment. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān ksipāmy ajasram andhā-yoniṣu [Bg. 16.19]. Dr. Patel: You are thrown in the lower yonis. *Prabhupāda: Lower? Yes, yes. Lower... That is mṛtyu*-saṁsāra. Suppose next life I become dog. Then my becoming very big scientist, big lawyer, big this and that, everything finished. But that law is not in your hand. After death, you cannot say, "Mother nature, you are giving this body. I don't like it." No. "It is not in your liking. It is my liking." Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. When you are criminal, you are under the grip of the magistrate. If he puts you in jail, you cannot say that "I don't like." No. You like or not; *you must go. Who cares for your liking? Therefore mūḍha. Prakṛteḥ. Prakṛti, the laws of nature, is working in its own way. Nobody can change it. But ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā. Those who are rascal, they are thinking, "I am independent. Whatever I like, I can do. There is no God. There is no law." Kartāham iti manyate. That should be avoided, that I am independent. Means that knowledge is lacking at the present moment. "Whatever I think, I can do. It is private. Religion is private." And big, big swamis are supporting. "Yes, religion is your private." Dr. Patel: Even the state says "Religion is your private..." *Prabhupāda: Whatever... The rascal says. A rascal says. It is not private. No private*-public. It is laws of nature. You have to abide by that. The nature's law is "Now winter. You have to cover your body." There is no second law. So that is wanting, that we are... The present defect is that every one of us under the laws of God or nature, whatever you say. And still, we are declaring independence. This is the defect. Prakrti-stho 'pi. *Dr. Patel: Sat*-saṅga is continuously coming in contact with such gurus like you or, I mean, reading that śāstras, also is a sat-saṅga. *Prabhupāda: But reading... By reading, you cannot understand. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. That is also vidhilīn: "In order to understand that science, he must go to guru." *Dr. Patel: But, sir, instead of reading no books of knowledge, if you read Bhāgavata or Bhagavad*-gītā, it is a sort of a sat-saṅga, and that develops. Someday he'll go to a guru. He'll find out. Prabhupāda: No, no, if he reads Bhāgavata, he is not ordinary man. Dr. Patel: He is on the way up. *Prabhupāda: If he reads Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, he is not ordinary man. *Dr. Patel: He's a sat*-saṅgi. *Prabhupāda: Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-samvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ [SB 3.25.25]. Rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ. Unless you discuss Bhāgavata, Bhagavad-gītā, with sat-saṅga, devotees, it does not become relishable. Therefore he's not attached. Tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavaḥ. In another verse.... Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit [SB 1.5.10]. He may read one literature very decoratively written, very interesting, but there is no discussion about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yad vacaḥ citra-padam, very decorative. Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit: [SB 1.5.10] "But there is no glorification of the Lord." Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham: "Such kind of literature is enjoyable by such persons who are like crows." Dr. Patel: Why? Prabhupāda: Crows. Dr. Patel: Why crows? *Prabhupāda: Crows will never come to a nice place. They'll go to the filthy place, where everything rubbish is thrown out. The crow will take advantage of it: "Oh, here is enjoyable thing." Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham. So we have been educated to become vāyasa, crows, useless black bird. There are other birds also, but these... Amongst the birds, these crows are most disliked by everyone. So our present literature and taste of literature is like that, crows. "Ka, ka, ka, ka." Even amongst the birds, they'll find swan, white swan. And they're black crows. Nature's division is so nice. Na yad vacaś citra*-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham uśanti mānasā [SB 1.5.10]. That is rejected by the mānasā. Mānasā means the birds who live in the māna-sarovara, just like ducks and swans. Dr. Patel: Haṁsas. *Prabhupāda: Haṁsas. They live in a very nice clean water, garden. Uśanti mānasā. They do not go there. Now they are making so much propaganda against our men, but these boys will never go to cinema. Uśanti mānasā. They are boys. They have no attraction, restaurant and cinema. You'll never find. Uśanti mānasā. They have rejected. And we see others*-they are making line, queue. Yes. Why? Vāyasaṁ tīrtham. They like that. Crows like... They have been educated like crows. Dr. Patel: They feed on the filth. This is one difficulty. All people are mad after the cinema. *Prabhupāda: They will wait four hours, five hours, standing. Why cinema? I have seen in London the British Museum. Something came there. From morning there is a queue. Exactly like that, they were standing to go and see the museum. Something came. I... Three, four years ago I saw. They were standing. Just like here. For purchasing the cinema ticket they are standing and eating nampalli, just to see, eyesight. They will not come to see Deity in the temple. They'll not come. Mentality is different. It is a very dangerous civilization, soul*-killing civilization. We should be very, very careful if we want success also. We shall go now? (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 8, 1977, Bombay Prabhupāda: There is chance of being accepted all over the world. There is now opposition, and some of the politicians, they're of opinion that "This culture, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, is spreading like epidemic, and if we do not check, in ten years time they'll take the government." Guest (1) (Indian man): Of America. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) That there is possibility because these young men, they are taking. So everywhere revolution takes place by young men. So if it is actually spreading like epidemic, and young men, they are taking part, so within ten years it is not impossible. Guest (1): It's a very good idea, then, to follow it. I'm quite serious. Prabhupāda: And they are democratic. It can pull down even a President like Nixon. So if they like, if the majority becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, they can make Kṛṣṇa conscious government. There is no, I mean to say, wonder in it. So anyway, because these youngsters in the Western countries, both in Europe and America, are taking... And the recent telegram we have received... Just see how many books we have sold. (aside:) Make it little less. Guest (2) (Indian man): (reading telegram) "Dear Śrīla Prabhupāda, please accept our humble obeisances. Here are the saṅkīrtana marathon results for all of ISKCON worldwide for the week of December 17th to 24th." Prabhupāda: One week's report. Guest (2): Yes. And that, too, before Christmas. "One lakh 17,644 big books, 90,777 medium books, 63,322 small books, 4 lakh 37,420 BTG..." Guest (1): Back to Godhead magazine. Girirāja: That's our magazine. Guest (2): Right."And 7 lakh 9,686 total." This has come from... Guest (1): Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Our headquarters. Trivikrama: One week. Guest (2): New York. This is from New York. Guest (1): It's coming from New York, but it's the same for all over America. Prabhupāda: All over the world. Guest (2): "We offer our sincere congratulations. It is, of course, the hand of Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Seventeen lakhs copies of our literature sold in one week. Guest (1): What is the daily income here? They would be interested to know the daily income for their own selves, daily income for the book sales. Prabhupāda: Oh, book sale? Five to six lakhs. Now, you can just imagine from the sales. Guest (1): And how many people it must be going. This magazine is hardly one dollar. In America one rupee. (Hindi?) ...magazine for them. Prabhupāda: So this is documentary. And the Europeans and..., they are not fools and rascals that they are interested in purchasing other religious book, not their Bible. You see? So it has got very great potency. So under the circumstances, we should now make combined effort that it can be pushed on more organizedly. I am doing now alone with the help of these... But no Indians are coming. This is the difficulty. Guest (2): I think, with all due respect, many Indians are trying to do things in their own religious sect or in their own districts. Prabhupāda: Nobody is doing. *Guest (2): Well, I mean, if you had been to Bharatpur recently, about 5,200 beds were there for netra*-yajña, for the eyes operation. Prabhupāda: I know that. That I know. But I am speaking of this culture. Guest (2): Culture, yes. Guest (1): That is a difficulty one is giving.(?) *Guest (2): Because in observing karma*-phela, somebody's taking care of. In bhakti... *Prabhupāda: But one thing is that we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. In Bhagavad-gītā there is no such statement that you take care of the eyes of the people. There is no such statement. That is your manufactured idea. But we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is the difference. Our preaching is that instead of giving relief to the eyes, give him relief in such a way he hasn't got to accept any more this body with eyes. You cannot make a solution of the problem. Somebody is taking care of the eyes, somebody's taking of the finger, somebody of the hair, somebody of another, genital, and so on, so on. This will not solve the problem. The problem is, as it is said in the Bhagavad..., janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. This is intelligence. As soon as you take birth, then you'll have eyes, you'll have eye trouble, vyādhi. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. If you accept janma-mṛtyu, then between janma-mṛtyu there is vyādhi and jarā. You have to accept. You may give some relief, but you have to accept. So that is not solution. The solution is how to stop this janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. That is solution. That is bigger solution. So we are giving that thing-there will be no more eyes' trouble. The main disease... Suppose one man is diseased, so sometimes he is feeling headache, sometimes eye-ache, sometimes finger-ache, and you are applying some medicine for headache. That is not the solution. The solution is that this man is suffering from this disease. How to cure it? So Bhagavad-gītā is meant for that purpose. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. And as soon as you accept body, kleśada... Na sādhu manye yato ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ [SB 5.5.4]. Asann api. This body is not permanent. So because the body is not permanent, the disease also not permanent. So Kṛṣṇa's advice is tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ [Bg. 2.14]. You make the solution-that is the greatest solution-that how to stop janma-mṛtyu. But that they do not know, that this can be stopped. They are simply busy with their temporary problems. And they are taking it as very great. What is great? Suppose if you have got a boil here. Simply by pinprick. (makes blowing sound) Will it cure? There must be surgical operation. Get out the pus. So this movement is for that purpose. It is not for this janma-mṛtyu, I mean, temporary jarā-vyādhi. That is all right, but Kṛṣṇa says-if we take Kṛṣṇa's advice, Bhagavad-gītā*-that is not problem. If there is little trouble, tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Real problem is that janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. Try to stop it. That is intelligence. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. That is culture; *that is education, not to be very much bothered with the temporary. That is not very intelligence. Give them this culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have got this body. So long you have got this body, you may give relief to the eyes, but another trouble will come. It is not guarantee that by giving them relief to the eyes he gets relief from all kinds of disease. That is go... That will go, going on, janma*-mṛtyu..., er, mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya [Bg. 2.14]. So give relief, and the real relief, how to stop... That is our Vedic civilization, that you should not become father, you should not become mother, if you cannot give protection to your children from the cycle of birth and death. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. This is real problem. Real culture is that "This child has come to me, so we shall train him in such a way that no more accepting body." Because as soon as we accept body.... It is very difficult subject matter, of course, to understand, but Bhagavad-gītā teaches yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. When people forget this problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, Kṛṣṇa personally comes to teach them that "This is your problem." Guest (3) (Indian man): Guruji, just now the problem is of starvation. Prabhupāda: Well, starvation... Suppose you are diseased, and if your father does not give you to eat, that is your blessing. Guest (1): And what about...? He will die or...? Or this will go away? Prabhupāda: Why you are complaining? Suppose your father, he gives you everything. But when you are diseased, if he said, "My dear son you cannot eat everything," is that starvation? Guest (3): But... Prabhupāda: First of all give me answer this. Is that starvation? Guest (3): No... Prabhupāda: That is cure. This is cure. In the *Vedas* it is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. God is giving food to the cats and dogs. Nobody is starving. If you are starving, that is your blessing. Guest (3): But then, Guruji, suppose you see somebody... *Prabhupāda: We do not suppose. We get the reference to the śāstra. That is our disease. We don't manufacture. We don't manufacture anything. Our point of view is if there is starvation, then we take it: mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Tat te nukampāṁ su*-samīkṣamāṇo bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam [SB 10.14.8]. When we are put into starvation, we take it: blessings of God. We don't complain, that "I did something wrong or there is something wrong, so God has put me into this position. It is His blessing." This is our view. Guest (2): Guruji, my father mentioned about this very beautiful picture just above your head. He was saying it is one of best pictures he has seen of Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna. And you indicated that there may be a card or something. Girirāja: Yes, I have that. Guest (2): Oh. Very good. Guest (1): You want big picture? I can give you one. Prabhupāda: No, you have got cards printed? Guest (1): I have got lot of the big ones. I think big ones you don't have. Girirāja: He's asking for a card. Guest (2): I have been asked that he wants to keep it on paper. *Prabhupāda: I have given that picture in my Bhagavad*-gītā in so many languages. Girirāja: Here we have it in all different languages. This is Chinese. Guest (2): That I wouldn't be able to read. (laughter) *Girirāja: We're just showing that we are placing the Bhagavad*-gītā in all languages. This is German. Oh, yes, yes. You're German. Guest (2): I'm a little bit of that. Prabhupāda: So this starvation point, we take it as blessing. People generally question that "How God is unfavorable to somebody and favorable to...?" That is foolishness. God is good, but that we do not know. Because we are less intelligent, we think that "One man is in starvation; *therefore God is not good." That is our fault. We are not good. We do not understand God. But a Vaiṣṇava says, "Oh, it is blessing." And if he takes like that, then the result is mukti*-pade sa dayā-bhāk. His mukti is guaranteed. In any circumstances, if somebody takes God as good, then his mukti is guaranteed. And if he blames God-"Oh, He has put me into starvation"-then he has to suffer. This is the common argument sometimes we meet, "Oh, why God has made somebody so rich and somebody some poor? He is unjust." That is foolishness. God cannot be... He's just, always just. That is God. So unless we have got that firm conviction, then we cannot become devotee. Guest (1): That is why Indians are not joining then. Because they are not joining because of that; they cannot understand what is the reality. Because we try to comment upon the God's actions, "Somebody's poor, somebody's rich, somebody's this." Prabhupāda: But actually you don't believe in God. That is the disease, godlessness. If we believe in God... Guest (2): If we fully believe... But there are a large portion of... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They don't believe in Him. They think that "God is my servant, or order*-supplier"-"God, why you have not done this. If you don't do this, I don't want You." This is our position. Guest (2): (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Yes. That means "God is my servant order*-supplier." Actually... This is European mentality. One, my Godbrother, German Godbrother, that Sadananda, he told me, in the last war, when the war was going on, generally women were left. All men were in the battlefield, somebody's husband, somebody's father, somebody's son. So they went to the church. They were going church. Even Churchill also recommended "Go to the church. Pray." Duḥkha se saba hari bhaje sukha se bhaje kaya. So, but nobody returned. So all of them became atheist: "Oh, it is useless to go to church. I prayed so much for my husband coming back, but he did not come. Useless." So this is the position. "I ordered God that 'My husband has gone to the war. Let him come back unharmed.' And God did not bring him back. He did not carry my order. I don't want this God." This is going on. When the war was declared, there was no consultation with God. (laughter) Rascal. That time there was no consultation. And when the husband is going to die, he goes to God. This is our position. Guest (2): When war was to be declared... Prabhupāda: Ha. There was no consul... Guest (2): They had found a final solution to the Jewish problem. Prabhupāda: These politicians, they're everything. And when the war is very acute and the husband is going to die, then God is required. When he does sinful activities, God is never consulted, but when he suffers, then God's consulted. "And if You don't supply my order, then I don't want You." Means he remains: "Don't want You." That's all. Guest (2): Swamiji, may I ask one question which I had much discussion with your śiṣya here. Brahman, the sort of, what we in Hindu philosophy consider as the ultimate Godhead... Prabhupāda: No. Guest (2): Brahman you consider Kṛṣṇa. But He is, of course... He was incarnate. He was one of the avatāras. Prabhupāda: That is your opinion. That is not... Guest (2): That is our point which I want to clarify. *Prabhupāda: You have to take the śāstra, authority. Brahmaṇo aham pratiṣṭhā. Read Bhagavad*-gītā. You read Bhagavad-gītā? Now, did you not read this? Guest (2): Well, that's what I want to clarify. Prabhupāda: Find out this. Trivikrama: 14.27. Prabhupāda: Read that. Guest (2): I am... This, even on the Eighth Chapter you'll find. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmaṇo 'haṁ pratiṣṭhā. Read. Just here. Girirāja: Prabhupāda: So He is the pratiṣṭhā. Just like in this room there is illumination. The illumination is spread all over the room. (Hindi-"Please hear") So the illumination is important or the light is important? What is important? Guest (2): The original light. Source of the light. Isn't Brahman the source of the light? Prabhupāda: No, first of all try to understand. Just like the sunshine. The sunshine is important or the sun is important? Guest (2): The original sun. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, this impersonal Brahman illumination or effulgence, that is the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad*-aṇḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40]. So ultimately Kṛṣṇa is important, not this impersonal Brahman illumination. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. You see practical example and learn here in the śāstra. You'll understand Kṛṣṇa is the origin. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8], personally says. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. So Brahman also pravartate. But if you don't believe Kṛṣṇa and śāstra, that is different thing. Then you cannot be convinced. Śāstra-cakṣuṣāt. Your eyes should be through the śāstra, not by manufacturing ideas. So śāstras says this. Guest (2): With all due respect, I was talking of Brahman. Prabhupāda: I am speaking of Brahman. Brahman means this brahmajyoti. You mean that. Yes, I am speaking that. This brahmajyoti... Guest (2): Īśvara is different from Brahman? Prabhupāda: Īśvara everyone. But īśvara parama is Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Parameśvara. Prabhupāda: Parameśvara. There is two words. One is īśvara; one is parameśvara. You may be īśvara. You may be īśvara in your business. So many workers are working under you, and you are ordering, you are regulating, but you are not parameśvara. Similarly, you take each and every one, up to Brahma. They may be īśvara, but he's not a parameśvara. Parameśvara is one. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. That is Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): Then the last question. Rāma, how do you relate? *Prabhupāda: Rāma means Kṛṣṇa, the same. Rāmādi*-mūrtiṣu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan [Bs. 5.39]. Kṛṣṇa is always existing with His different incarnation, expansions, rāmādi-mūrti-Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha.... There are hundreds and thousands of expansions. Advaita acyuta anādi ananta-rūpam. So Rāma is expansion of Kṛṣṇa. He's God. There is no difference between Rāma and Kṛṣṇa. Just like one candle, and if you light another candle, another candle, so one may be the first, second, third, like that, but in candle power they are all the same; similarly, Rāma is expansion of Kṛṣṇa. That does not mean Rāma is less than Kṛṣṇa. Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha. There are many. Guest (1): That is what Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is, Kṛṣṇa and Rāma both. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): But the translation of the word Hare in... Prabhupāda: Hara. Guest (2): Hara, in English... Prabhupāda: Original hara. Just like lata. The lata, when you address lata, it is late. Similarly, when you address hara, the sambodhana is hare. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): Sambodhana is to remove the evil, remove the bad part isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, no. Where is bad? There is no bad. Guest (2): Hare Kṛṣṇa means what? "Brahman, please remove from me the... " Isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Why? It is addressing. Guest (2): Only addressing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Addressing means with some purpose when I address Mr. such and such. Then if you say, "Yes, what do you want to say?" Guest (2): It has no relation with the... *Prabhupāda: Relation is there. Relation is there. Otherwise, how can I address him? Relation is there. So this form Hare, means Hara, is the potency of Hari. [break] Just like you are a gṛhastha. You have got your wife, you have got your maidservant. The maidservant is doing something, wife is doing something, but you have many potencies. The managing director is there, but he has got many assistants. Similarly, the Supreme Person has got multi*-assistants, potencies. So they are all accepted as Hara, Hari's potencies. So we have to approach Hari through the potency: "O Hare. O the potency of the Lord. O Lord, be merciful." We cannot jump over the Lord without going through the potency. So those who are impersonalists, they cannot understand. But those who are intelligent, they can understand that God is person, He has got multi-potencies, and through the potencies He's working so nicely. This is Vedic injunction. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. *Guest (3) (Indian man): With guru*-kṛpa it can be revealed. *Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot have kṛṣṇa*-kṛpa directly. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. That is Caitanya. You have to go through guru. Guest (4) (Indian man): And how do we get guru? Guest (1): Guru finds you. *Prabhupāda: Not guru finds you. You have to find out guru. Guru is there. Guru is there. But if you want to be cheated, then you find out. And if you want to be cheated, the cheaters will... Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpa. If you are actually serious to serve Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa will give you: "Here is guru." Guru is there. Guru is there, but unless you are actually serious, you cannot get real guru. If you want to be cheated or if you are a cheater, then you'll get a cheater guru. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give prasāda. Bring prasāda. Now we go to guru for some medical help. We go to guru for some economic development. So you'll get cheater. That's all. Guest (1): But how to engage these people who are desirous who have desire of serving Kṛṣṇa in Bombay? If you are talking about a farm and other things... Prabhupāda: Then why we have constructed this? Guest (1): No, here people will not come because the people are not going business or anything, but people him, people like him, people like this, how they can engage... Prabhupāda: They can come at least weekend and learn. There are so many books. Guest (2): We have our own... We have to find out. Guest (4): We have to find our own ways to come here. Prabhupāda: Guru is there. Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you find? Why you are blind? Kṛṣṇa says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya [Bg. 4.8]. He has come. Why don't you take Him? Why do you go to a cheater? Because you want to be cheated. Guru is there. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7], Arjuna said. Why don't you surrender to Kṛṣṇa? That means I don't want guru. I want somebody, my order supplier. So how you can be... Because you want to be cheated, you'll get cheater. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmi [Bg. 4.11]. Why don't you accept Kṛṣṇa as guru? What is the difficulty? Is there anybody greater than Kṛṣṇa? Do you think like that? What is your idea? Guest (2): He is the ultimate. There's nothing more. *Prabhupāda: He is the supreme guru. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. He's the supreme person. So why don't you accept Him as guru? That means you do not want. Then you must be cheated. If gold is available in a gold shop, purchase there. Why do you go to a pan*-wala to purchase gold? Will you not be cheated? You do not know where to purchase gold, and still you are..., "Where is guru?" Go there, where gold is sold. And if you do not know even there, then you must be cheated. You do not know where is gold is available. Unfortunately you go to a pan-wala: "Have you got gold?" He'll give you some gold leaf, that's all: "Here is gold." The real thing is that guru is there, Kṛṣṇa is there. And we are presenting. We are not manufacturing. I do not say that I am guru. Our business is to present what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. Therefore I'm guru. Guru is he who speaks Kṛṣṇa's word. That is guru. And if he manufactures, then he is a cheater. Guest (1): This is the test of guru. *Prabhupāda: This is the test. Guru... The supreme guru is Kṛṣṇa, and anyone canvasses for Kṛṣṇa, he is guru, guru's represent... Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya. That guru will never say that "Kṛṣṇa is dead and gone. I am now guru. I am Kṛṣṇa. I am avatāra." That is rascaldom. So if you want such rascal, then you'll be cheated. (aside:) Who is bringing prasāda? Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Everything is there. Read Bhagavad-gītā very carefully. Don't misinterpret. That has killed our culture. They do not know what is Bhagavad-gītā, and they stand: "I am a student of Bhagavad-gītā." This is going on. Even recently I had been in Gandhi's aśrama. It is a desert. He was student of Bhagavad-gītā. Yes. Vinobhaji also never teaches Kṛṣṇa, but he's a Gītā-pravacana. What Gītā-pravacana without Kṛṣṇa? Everyone is doing that, Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. What is that Bhagavad-gītā? Guest (2): A glass without water. Prabhupāda: If big, big men do like that, then what the followers will do? Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate [Bg. 3.21]. This is the position of our country, that everyone has misguided in the name of leadership, and people are in bewilderment-"What to do?" Guest (2): But different... I mean... It was predicted that this may happen. Prabhupāda: What? *Guest (2): There would be Kali*-yuga. Then there will be Satya-yuga after. Is it not so, predicted? *Prabhupāda: I don't think. That is stated, what you are saying, that in Kali*-yuga people will be so fallen. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā [SB 1.1.10]. They are mandāḥ, bad, or very slow. Mandāḥ. And they have got their own manufactured ideas, sumanda-matayo. Not only mandāḥ, but they have got their own manufactured idea. And manda-bhāgyā, unfortunate. And upadrutāḥ. The first thing, three things, upadrava, disturbances... One disturbance is there will be no rainfall, and therefore there will be scarcity of food, and government will tax like anything. People will be so harassed that they will leave their hearth and home and go to the forest. this is awaiting in the Kali-yuga. But if you take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, you'll be saved. Girirāja: Prabhupāda: Asaṁśayaḥ. Girirāja: Asaṁśayaḥ. "For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotee, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me." *Prabhupāda: That's all. So we are trying to do that. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. It will be accepted by the devotees, not the karmī, jñānī, yogis, no. Only bhaktas. Therefore mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. So we have got two functions: first of all we are trying to make them bhakta, and then convincing him about this philosophy. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. Without being bhakta, nobody will understand what is yoga. The beginning is bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyam ekam uttamam: [Bg. 4.3] "Because, Arjuna, you are My bhakta, I'll explain to you. Otherwise it is lost." So without being a bhakta, nobody can understand Bhagavad-gītā. However he may say that "I am very staunch devotee. I am reader of...," he will misunderstand. So here Kṛṣṇa clearly says that "This is the most confidential knowledge. And without being bhakta, nobody will be able to understand." So the preacher has got two different businesses. One side, he has to make bhakta. The persons will... Because without being bhakta, he cannot understand. Then he teaches. So these two businesses going on in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. To become bhakta there is Deity-"Come here. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: Just think of Me: Just man-manā. And become a devotee." And naturally, if he comes to the temple, he'll offer some obeisances, he'll offer some flower, some fruit. Mad-yājī. Even a child will offer namaskara. In this way he becomes devotee. And then he understands. So we have got two functions. All over the world, whey we are opening these centers? Bhakto 'si-to make them bhakta. And they have become bhakta. And then you speak something about Kṛṣṇa. He'll learn it. So that is explained here, ya idaṁ paramam... Who will surrender? "Huh! I shall go to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. I shall surrender to my senses." Surrender he has to. He's not independent. But ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. Because he's rascal by ahaṅkāra, false ego, he does not accept Kṛṣṇa-"Huh! Why shall I accept Kṛṣṇa?" He will accept māyā. And the māyā, by pulling by the ear-"Come here. Sit down"*-that I shall accept. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām... And that... But stop that force. That he does not do. "Better let māyā pull me by the ear, and whatever she likes, I shall do." But he'll not like to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is very confidential knowledge, to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So anyone who tries for this business... That is Kṛṣṇa's desire, that "Try to make these rascals a devotee and convince him about the importance of Bhagavad-gītā." If you do this thing, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68], then? What is next line? Girirāja: The next verse? Bhaktiṁ mayi paraṁ kṛtvā... *Prabhupāda: Ah. Mām evaiṣyasi. "He becomes pure devotee, and he comes back to Me." Mam evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.65]. That is the solution: go back home, back to Godhead. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramam [Bg. 15.6]. That is the mission of human life. For that purpose we have to do everything. How to go back to home, back to Godhead. And that point we are missing. We are engaged in so*-called philanthropic work. Real purpose of life we are missing. And this can be done only in this human form of life. The Prahlāda Mahārāja says, Trivikrama: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Guest (5) (Indian man): I am going tomorrow to Kumbha. Tomorrow night. Prabhupāda: Oh, by plane. Oh. Guest (5): Train. Howrah Mail, Howrah Express, getting down at Prayāga. And I'll be there to 14th and 15th. Prabhupāda: Oh. So you can go to our camp. Guest (5): Camp. I am going with Mr. Munshi only. (Hindi) He's already there, and we are going to put up with them only. Prabhupāda: That is far away. It takes, I understand, one and a half hours to come. Guest (5): It is three miles away, in water, in the river. *Prabhupāda: Three miles means one and a half hour? So go one and a half hour and come one and a half hour*-three hours. Guest (5): No, where is our camp then? Prabhupāda: We have got our camp underneath the bridge. Guest (5): Railway. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (5): I'll talk to Girirāja. I have four, five, or six people with me. Dr. Misi, Durlab Mehta, he's also coming. He life member is there for last two, three years. He's also coming. His wife is coming. Some friends are coming. You'll be coming back when, sir? Prabhupāda: I'm going on the 11th. Guest (5): 11th. And coming back about 17th? Prabhupāda: Yes, but... Yes. Guest (5): How is your health? Prabhupāda: Not good. Guest (5): No, but you are taking that medicine or...? Prabhupāda: I stopped that medicine. Guest (5): Too much bitter, I think. Prabhupāda: Not only bitter. I got some trouble in the teeth. Pap(?) means suspended. Guest (5): Pills are taken or not taken? Prabhupāda: Pills? No. If required I shall take again. Guest (5): If possible, I'll come tomorrow. Otherwise I'll see you when we come back or I'll see you there. Prabhupāda: All right. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Trivikrama: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya. (everyone leaves the room... long silence. Knock on the door) Haṁsadūta: Jaya, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh! Hare Kṛṣṇa! Come on. Just now coming? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Just now. We came by truck. Prabhupāda: Oh. So everything is all right? Haṁsadūta: Well, everything is all right. I came because I have to pick up one truck which was... It was in an accident, and it was repaired, so we have to pick that up. So I thought I would come to Bombay and also see Your Divine Grace. I heard you're not feeling well. Prabhupāda: No. So? When you started from there? Haṁsadūta: We started eleven o'clock yesterday, eleven o'clock in the afternoon, and we spent one night in Shalampur, a nice town. We did some kīrtana in a Dvārakādhīśa temple, very nice temple. And we stayed with the owner of a trucking company. A very nice place. You look so handsome, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (clears throat) So, how business is going there? *Haṁsadūta: Well, there's no money, so not much can be done. The last two days there was no prasādam distribution in the evening, and so the last two days I was there, nobody came. The problem is that since Your Divine Grace left there, the same people would be cooking, these sweeper people. And now they don't want to cook anymore because they work all day, and they say, "We can't work all around the clock, twenty*-four hours." So they stopped cooking. And together with no money... So the whole thing has just come to a stalemate. So now another problem is that the saṅkīrtana party which we sent out is also not... It came back yesterday, also not going on properly. I know this causes Your Divine Grace anxiety, but I just think I should speak frankly about how I feel about the situation. I think Mahāṁsa is a very nice devotee, but he does everything himself. He's always jumping over everything, and before it can be discussed, he's already done it. Just like he flew here. He flew here, and it costs a lot of money to fly from Hyderabad and back. It costs, I think, about five hundred rupees. And there's no need for doing things in that way. So I don't know exactly how to work with Mahāṁsa. It's not that I fight with him. I just don't know how to work out things so that it comes out in a practical way. Prabhupāda: What is the use of investing money there? I have already given fifty thousand. Haṁsadūta: I mean I talked with Mahāṁsa also. I talked with him when he came back day before yesterday. Talked with him very frankly and openly. Of course, he always says, "Yes, yes, yes," and then he just does whatever he feels should be done. And Tejas also... Now, Tejas, for example, he started a vegetable garden, and it was going on very nicely, but then everything dried up because all the workers, they work under Mahāṁsa. They're all accustomed to taking instructions from him. And so the plants were not watered. Mahāṁsa continually put the water someplace else. So now everything that Tejas has done is frustrated. So he feels, "Why should I be here?" Tejas, I think, has something really to offer. I think he's experienced, but if he's not given a field and some space to exercise his talent, he's going to go away, and I feel, without Tejas... I mean there's no one else I can refer to about these matters. I don't know anything about farming. I don't know planting. But Tejas seems to know. And he speaks Telegu also, and he also is one of our devotees. And I have more faith in Tejas than I would any other person who we might consult. But ultimately Tejas is, I think, more important than anyone else because he is your devotee, and he's very faithful and responsible. And one other thing which Tejas... When he was there, he worked out financial..., what he saw was the actual financial picture of how Mahāṁsa had been investing money in the past and what kind of result he had been getting on the basis of labor and... Prabhupāda: Now the money which we have transferred, so that is... You are three signatures. Haṁsadūta: We are three signatures, yes. Prabhupāda: So... Haṁsadūta: From that money, nothing has been spent yet except five thousand rupees which went for the first well which was dug, which is not particularly good. They went to a 105 feet, and the well is suitable for about three acres of land. Now, since just this small trip that I made from Hyderabad to Bombay, I can understand the reason that nothing is growing in that part. It's because there's no water. Even if you dig, you don't get much water. That big square well, which is already there right behind the gośālā, there is no water in it. It does not fill up. It doesn't fill up. It's not the kind of well you pump out and then it fills up. Guest (6) (Indian man): I could not go because without discussing this farm in Bombay. Prabhupāda: All right, you take rest. Haṁsadūta: I'm not tired. I can... [break] The signatures were just a... [break] Guest (6): Prabhu was telling about the Bombay farm now... [break] Prabhupāda: First of all we must attract people, then give them prasāda. If you have no power to attract them, then how..., what is the position? Program means men will do. If there is no men, who will do this program? Girirāja: In that area, in Thana, they drink at night. Prabhupāda: Let them do whatever nonsense they are doing. Let them chant and take prasāda. We don't mind what they are doing. That is later on. When I was chanting in Tompkinson Park I never asked them that "Don't come here. You are drinking." Everyone was drinking. (laughs) I know that. Everyone had illicit sex. They were coming with their boyfriend, girlfriend. I didn't know that? Was I going to restrict them from? Let them come, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu stressed on this, mass kīrtana every night. He was not speaking philosophy. Philosophy with Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, not with the mass of people. Mass of people-"Come on! Chant!" Give prasāda. This was Caitan... What they will understand, philosophy? Girirāja: They won't understand. Prabhupāda: Mass of people, let them chant and dance and take prasāda. So these centers are being opened for mass movement as well as class movement. In the village there is... Hardly you'll get good, educated men. So there is no question of philosophy. Given them chance of chanting and take prasāda. It is useless to talk before them our philosophy. They'll never understand. But they will understand prasādam. Prasādam is so nice. If there are few grains of prasāda, even the crows will come, the condemned bird. (laughs) He will also come. You do like this. So if this has been settled, do that. Haṁsadūta: I think Mahāṁsa would rather manage the farm himself. Prabhupāda: Then... You think... I do not know, but manage somehow or other. I want that prasāda distribution must go on. People should come in numbers, increase. Whatever you can produce, spend for that purpose. We are not going to produce foodstuff for our starving... It is for them. When they'll understand, they'll work voluntarily: "Yes, it's for us." We are not capitalists. Trivikrama: Now there's ārati, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Girirāja: It is a big philosophy, that everything is simply based on following the order of Kṛṣṇa without any expectation of any gain. *Prabhupāda: Then you are success. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. This is success. Kṛṣṇa says, "Do this." Hari-śauri: Is that why Bhagatji didn't leave Vṛndāvana? Is that why he didn't want to leave? *Prabhupāda: No, no. I don't speak for anyone. But these kinds of paramahaṁsas are there. They cannot go out of Vṛndāvana. They are so advanced. But in Vṛndāvana, if there is a beautiful woman, try to exploit her. Go on. So I wanted to talk with you about that Saurabha, but he's coming on Monday. No? Because Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked the Gosvāmīs that you develop Vṛndāvana, so Gosvāmīs, they did that. But these smoker, bidi smoker paramahaṁsas, they imitate Rūpa Gosvāmī: "You cannot go." Simply by imitating Gosvāmīs by a loincloth they have become... [break] Pṛthivīte āche yata naga... All over the world, as many villages and towns are there, preach. But this paramahaṁsa says, "No, no. I cannot go beyond Vṛndāvana." Kali's..., Kali*-yuga paramahaṁsa. Practically, if I remained at Rādhā-Dāmodara temple becoming a paramahaṁsa, then how this institution would have come into existence? That is a fact. But we are not doing. If I would have been a great paramahaṁsa, not leave Vṛndāvana; I would have been very happy in that room, no botheration. Then how this movement would have been started all over the world? Hari-śauri: That kind of paramahaṁsa would have probably been pleased if the movement hadn't started. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are against us. They criticize us, all the gosvāmīs, the bābājīs. I have become eyesore. Hari-śauri: Sore for their eyes. Prabhupāda: Therefore Nitāi left. He was instigated that "Your guru is useless. Find out a better guru and remain in bhajana." This rascal left. He talked with (indistinct). Now where he has gone? Nobody knows where is the paramahaṁsa. Girirāja: The others are envious. *Prabhupāda: Yes, because they're ordinary men. Man's business is to become envious. An ordinary third*-class men, there is always envy. Not only first class, but third class. And what to speak of Vaiṣṇava and paramahaṁsa. Third-class men. And the government is capturing them and giving sterilization because there is record-so many abortions in the American Hospital. The bābājīs are making pregnant the widows, and they are going for abortion. There are many cases, similar, and there is American Hospital. Girirāja: In Vṛndāvana? Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not all. But wherefrom they are becoming pregnant? Hari-śauri: What is the need for any bābājī to get sterilized, anyway? Prabhupāda: Not to get... Sterilization, they are being forced. The government understand that who is making them pregnant, these ugly widows. They are not coming from Delhi, government servant. (laughter) Bring them, paramahaṁsas. When I was coming, so many paramahaṁsa, they advised me, "Sir, why you are going to foreign country in this old age? You are in Vṛndāvana. Just go on with your bhajana." The bābājīs gave me advice. And actually, I was seventy years old. *Girirāja: They don't know Bhagavad*-gītā. *Prabhupāda: No, they don't care for. They say, "Bhagavad*-gītā is not for us." Girirāja: They say that? *Prabhupāda: Yes, the bābājīs say. They are for Bhāgavata rasa līlā. "Bhagavad*-gītā is for third class or lower class who does not..." They are paramahaṁsas... They are not... Immediately jump over rasa-līlā. Girirāja: They discriminate this Kṛṣṇa from that Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The Vallabha*-sampradāya, they say that "Before Kṛṣṇa was contaminated, in His childhood, we worship that Kṛṣṇa." Girirāja: Who said that? *Hari-śauri: Vallabha*-sampradāya. *Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa, when He was young, grown*-up, He became contaminated by the gopīs." Therefore they do not touch that Kṛṣṇa. When He was below that age, Bal Kṛṣṇa, He is innocent; He has no desire. They think this is contaminated Kṛṣṇa, and Bal Kṛṣṇa is uncontaminated. Hari-śauri: Then they don't accept Kṛṣṇa as being the supreme enjoyer. Girirāja: I met someone who said that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their theory: "Kṛṣṇa is contaminated. In His young age He's contaminated." Now then why... So*-called advanced gentlemen say that "We don't want Kṛṣṇa of Vṛndāvana. We want Kṛṣṇa of Kurukṣetra." They say that. They don't want Kṛṣṇa of Vṛndāvana, dancing with the gopīs. Bankim Chandra Chatterjee, the great novelist, he had written on Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa-charitra. He has made distinction, that "Kṛṣṇa of Vṛndāvana is different from Kṛṣṇa of Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa of Dvārakā is different." Like that. Girirāja: Well, if the Vallabhas say that they only like Kṛṣṇa before He was contaminated, so what is the specialty of Kṛṣṇa? Everyone is uncontaminated in a young age. Prabhupāda: But do they take Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme? That is the... This man was saying. So I said, "God is..." You were not present when I was speaking with that...? That "In your estimation, whether God is good or God is bad, He is God. You can think that 'God is not giving the poor man any food; therefore God is bad.' But when you think that, 'Yes, God is good,' then you are devotee." This is going on: "God is good; God is bad; God is contaminated; God is uncontaminated." Girirāja: But actually they're atheists, or Māyāvādīs. *Prabhupāda: They're ordinary men, third*-class men. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati... [Bg. 7.3]. What they'll understand about Kṛṣṇa, third-class men? Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati. When one is siddha, out of them, one may understand. And how these third-class men will understand Kṛṣṇa? If they want to remain on the third-class position, they'll never understand Kṛṣṇa. Girirāja: Then why do they imitate? Prabhupāda: Some motive behind. Or they may be in the lower position. By serving, gradually they'll come to the real position. But if they do not hear what Kṛṣṇa said, then just imitates again, same. So if we decide that "Whatever Kṛṣṇa has said, we have to do it at any risk," that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Kṛṣṇa has said. My Guru Mahārāja said. We have to do it." Hari-śauri: I was just reading how Bali Mahārāja decided that he would please Lord Viṣṇu at any cost, and he gave everything. *Prabhupāda: Therefore mahājana. Bali Mahārāja is one of the authorities. In spite of all difficulties, all opposition... His guru is opposition. "No. I shall give Him whatever He wants." Sarvātma*-samarpane bali. Bali became perfect by surrendering everything. (someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sit down. Where is Gopāla? Mr. Asnani: He's in office. Prabhupāda: Did you talk with him? Mr. Asnani: I told him that should I see Prabhupāda... I told him I'll come today. Prabhupāda: So call him. Mr. Asnani: Should I bring him? Prabhupāda: No, he's going. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Asnani: Yes, I met him. Prabhupāda: The point is that some income tax affair. Mr. Asnani: No problem. Is it at (indistinct). Have you seen notice? Girirāja: Which is? About the constitution, exemption? Ah, no. No, it's not a notice as such, but they're questioning whether we deserve the tax exemption as a charitable trust. They're saying that we are not charitable; we are religious. And religious is not exempt from income tax. So the question is whether we have to change our constitution to fit their idea or whether to establish a separate trust or whether to defend that our present... Prabhupāda: First thing is that we have not received any official notice. Girirāja: No. Prabhupāda: So why you are bothering about that? Girirāja: That's what I say. We have stood... Prabhupāda: Gopāla is bothering too much about... Mr. Asnani: No, Prabhupāda, with your blessings, I know the Assistant Commissioner, and he is number three or four in entire city of Bombay and a very much influential center. He's a courageous man also. He's a sarvaji(?). And if I will place this problem before him as and when it is necessary, he is there to guide us. Prabhupāda: So first of all where is the necessity? I have been talking... Mr. Asnani: Why create a problem? Today the problem is not before us. Girirāja: The thing is that the same constitution we've had since the beginning, and we've always got the exemption... Prabhupāda: Yes. And why you are bothering? He's going Delhi? Girirāja: Even last time the Assistant Commissioner... Mr. Asnani: Who is there in Delhi, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: This Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Asnani: Ah, let him go. Prabhupāda: But let him go, but I think that why unnecessarily bother? Mr. Asnani: Today there is no problem for us. Girirāja: Yes. She's only the Assistant Commissioner. Last time also the Assistant Commissioner was... Prabhupāda: What is the position... Mr. Asnani: To which one you made, Kapoor? Girirāja: No, that was Bhave? There's so many Assistant Commissioners. *Mr. Asnani: Yes, there are so many Assistant Inspecting Commissioners. Since we are living in Juhu*-our temple is in Juhu-our registered office is at Juhu. So we will come in the jurisdiction of Tirumala (?) Chambers, which is near Naida, which is near... Girirāja: Yes, I know that. Mr. Asnani: So he's the head of the department and entire building, that Sarvaji about whom I'm talking to you. Earlier he was at Hykerbol(?) and that is the flow(?) on fourth side, near Churchgate. And, Prabhupāda, I may give him... [break] Prabhupāda: It is a superstition that one should not lie down keeping the head on the northern side. So one says that "I have no head at all. So why shall I bother about keeping my head this way or that way?" Similarly, keep no head, so there will be no question of keeping northern side or southern side. That I want. We have no such program. You spend all money. I want that whatever collection is there, you spend. There is no account, and there will be no question of income tax. We are beggars. Whatever money you get, you spend. That's all. Mr. Asnani: So your books will also show you, ultimately at end of year, expenditure, income, equalized, neutralized. Prabhupāda: Therefore I am insisting: whatever money we have got in the bank, spend it for printing. Keep the books. That's all. I am insisting this point everywhere. You kept that money seven thousand, seven lakhs or what? Haṁsadūta: I was going to spend it. I spent every month, but they came at the end of the month. Prabhupāda: Therefore the botheration came, in Germany. He was waiting for sending the money for food distribution. In the meantime, they created trouble. Anyway, we should be free like that. Spend all money immediately. [break] I say that, that don't keep any more money in the bank. Spend it. Mr. Asnani: And keep the receipts and vouchers. Girirāja: Yes, that we do. Prabhupāda: Follow this policy. Just like govindāya namaḥ. When you see that the puffed rice is flying in the air, "All right, govindāya namaḥ. Govindāya namaḥ." Girirāja: Offer it to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise I'll not give to Govinda. Income tax officer will take: "Govindāya namaḥ." If you distribute prasādam of Govinda among the poor men... We have got already in Māyāpura. Increase that. There is... They are drum*-beating, that "Anyone who is hungry, please come and take prasāda." Girirāja: That they accept as charitable. They want charitable. Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: So what could be more charitable than feeding? Prabhupāda: No, you keep always kitchen, and by drum beating, that, "Anyone hungry within this area, or anywhere, come here. Take capatis, roti," and distribute prasādam. That is in our program. Mr. Asnani: I shall go what Prabhupāda says, nearest to our village, within ten miles, five miles, two miles. Prabhupāda: That I ask you. Do that. Why it is stopped, I cannot understand. Mr. Asnani: And even the Ottomans. Prabhupāda: Yes. I'll give money... Mr. Asnani: I'll distribute your papers to the Muhammadans in their language, Marwati.(?) *Prabhupāda: Let them chant, dance, and take prasāda, go away. That's all. No philosophy. Everyone will come. Chant, dance, and take prasādam. And we shall work hard for this maintaining the establishment. We are recognized beggars. We can beg. Where is anxiety? If we go to a rich man, that "I want some money for this purpose," they will pay. Where is the question of scarcity of money? You cannot say there is no money. A sannyāsī can go anywhere: "Give me some money. I want to do this." They are meant for begging. And in India still... Why India? Everywhere. I am speaking of India. Still now, although India is so poverty*-stricken and materialized, if a sannyāsī goes to beg something, nobody will refuse. Nobody will refuse, especially in the village. They'll never refuse. "Baba, (Hindi)." He'll give. Actually our āśramas are maintained by begging mūrti. Mūrti... You... Hundred houses, hundred mūrti. Then you can... Mr. Asnani: Mūrti means they're so much helpful of... Prabhupāda: That's all. Mr. Asnani: And in countryside they consider, "Grace of God is our culture." In villages... Prabhupāda: In villages no sannyāsī starves. As soon as there is a sannyāsī in the village, so many villagers, "Baba, aiye, prasāda paiye. (Hindi)" Daily. Still in Punjab, any sannyāsī goes, he gets invitation. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was in tīrtha... That is the system. Girirāja: He couldn't fulfill all the invitations. Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: There were too many invitations. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Dāśyu*-dharma. Their business will be how to plunder. Because at the present moment the so-called democracy means, to tell the truth, all cunning, third-class, fourth-class men, they are doing. They have no sympathy for the general public. Their only aim is, so long he's in the office, gather as much money as possible. Am I right or not? Mr. Asnani: Yes, sir. Prabhupāda: That means plunder. So if you remain with no money, who will plunder? Because they are becoming plunderer, you remain without any bhūtīs. Girirāja: Sanātana Gosvāmī, when he suspected that they were going to steal, he told, "Get rid of it." *Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Yes. He immediately offered, "I have got this seven dollars. You take it." He was astrologer. He said, "No, you have got eight dollars. But I'll not take your money." "No, no, you take, sir. You'll not take*-somebody will take. I'll give you. Kindly help me." And he chastised his servant, "Why you have taken these dangerous things? So you have got still one dollar. You go back. You don't come with me. And eight dollars I have given him. I'll be free." He thought that "Master is by sentiment leaving home and he is so opulent. Let me go with him and keep some money in case of emergency." Of course, that is... From his part it was right, but he thought that "Without this money, to remain, is more safe than to feel safety by keeping money." Because if the government is plunderer, then there is no other. This time is coming. The government will plunder in the name of taxation, and there will be no rainfall, scarcity of food. So everyone will feel very difficult to maintain the family. They'll leave voluntarily and go away. This is foretold. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This milk is not good, eh? Even for you they cheat. I told him specially, "It's for Guruji. Please don't cheat." *Prabhupāda: Who cares for Guruji? (laughs) Who cares for Guruji? They think that "Guruji is cheating you*-I am cheating your Guruji. What is the wrong?" They think Guruji means cheater. Nowadays, Guruji means cheater. "So you are cheated by your Guruji, so let me cheat your Guruji." That's all. Sate satāṁ samācaret. If one is sat, cunning, you should be also cunning, more cunning. This is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's advice, policy. Sate satāṁ samācaret. Very miserable condition in this age. Therefore the sane man should utilize the little opportunity of human life in the cent percent Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the proper utilization of life. Try to serve Kṛṣṇa cent percent. Bas. That is proper utilization. The so-called philanthropy, altruism, humanitarianism, this ism, that.... Bogus.... Not bogus-useless. It will not help. They are pious activities. So, Caitanya-caritāmṛta says, pious or impious, both of them are impediments to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we are not interested with pious activities or impious even. We are interested how to serve Kṛṣṇa. Our philosophy is very difficult to understand. Suppose you are giving some medical relief, and if I say that "Why you should waste your time by giving medical relief? Why not give him relief from birth and death?" they'll laugh. Is it not? They'll laugh, that "What nonsense he's speaking? This man is suffering. He immediately requires." We don't say that "You don't give medical relief," but why do you forget the real business? That is our.... Vivekananda said, "What is the use of pouring water in tulasī? Better pour water in a eggplant saka. You'll get some eggplant." This is.... Vivekananda said. Eggplant is also a small tree, and tulasī... So if somebody is pouring water on a tulasī leaf for bhakti, he condemns him, "Why you are wasting time? Pour water on this eggplant. Tomorrow you'll get two." (laughs) This is karmī. "God is fictitious. God's service is another sentiment. Do something practical." Mr. Asnani: He was a politician. Pseudopolitician. Prabhupāda: He went to preach Vedānta, but instead of preaching Vedānta, he learned so many things which is objectionable from Vedic civilization. Mr. Asnani: He also said that you cannot teach the religion on empty stomachs. Prabhupāda: That is his philosophy. Girirāja: So many people say that. Prabhupāda: But why the kings left their kingdom and became empty stomach? There were... Mr. Asnani: They lived in jungle for tapasya. *Prabhupāda: Why this Bhārata*-varṣa, Bharata Mahārāja, at the twenty-four years of age and his wife was young, children were young, and he was emperor of the whole world, so why went voluntarily to become empty stomach? He was not poverty-stricken. But why he accepted? Devotee: Tapasya. Mr. Asnani: No, he realized that the material world is not the solution. *Prabhupāda: There is no question of empty stomach. God is supplying food to the ant, and why shall I remain empty stomach? Śukadeva Gosvāmī has said, cīrāṇi kiṁ pathi na santi diśanti bhikṣāṁ. Find out this verse. Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana*-durmadāndhān [SB 2.2.5]. Cīrāṇi kiṁ na santi, pathi. Girirāja: Is it the First Canto? *Prabhupāda: Yes. The first word is cīrāṇi. C*-i-r-a-n-i. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Cīrāṇi. *Girirāja: Is it cira*-vasa...? Prabhupāda: No, no, cīrāṇi there is. I think it is Second Canto. Maybe Second Canto. Girirāja: Yes. I have it. *Prabhupāda: Dhana*-durmadāndhān. What is the translation? Girirāja: "Are there no torn clothes lying on the common road? Do the trees, which exist for maintaining others, no longer give alms in charity? Do the rivers, being dried up, no longer supply water to the thirsty? Are the caves of the mountains now closed, or above all, does the Almighty Lord not protect the fully surrendered souls?" *Prabhupāda: Where is the question of empty stomach? Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana*-durmadāndhān. Last line. *Girirāja: "Why, then, do the learned sages go to flatter those who are intoxicated by hard*-earned wealth?" Prabhupāda: They think that "Why should we go to God? The devotees come here to beg from us. We are bigger than God." *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Puffed*-up. Prabhupāda: Therefore they say, "empty stomach." [break] Kim ajito na avati upasannan. Read the meaning. *Girirāja: "kim*-whether; *ajitaḥ*-the Almighty Lord; *avati*-give protection; *na*-not; *upasannān*-the surrendered soul." *Prabhupāda: That's it. Kṛṣṇa says "You surrender." And one who has surrendered, does it mean Kṛṣṇa has no responsibility? So why you are bothering to go to this dhana*-durmadāndhān? Mr. Asnani: Unconditional surrender. *Prabhupāda: Huh? You have done already upasannān. So is Kṛṣṇa unable to maintain you? Why should you go to this blind man? So we go not for our maintenance. We want to engage his hard*-earned money to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is our mission. Not for this belly. For belly we refuse to go anywhere. You'll find in Kumbhamela, still there are sādhus, they are not going anywhere. And they are starving? We go-gṛhināṁ dina-cetasām-"This rascal is absorbed in the thought of comfortable life, and he has taken only these wife and children, everything. Give him some other..." This is our mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa.' Let him go there and sit down and talk with him and give some instruction of Kṛṣṇa. This is our... We are not going for this belly. (Hindi) They are criticizing that "This man is empty stomach, and he has come to me." What does he care for empty stomach? No. Even they insult that, "They are empty stomach," it doesn't matter. It is my duty to give him some enlightenment about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Never mind. Let him insult. Nityānanda Prabhu, He was injured. Still, He said, "All right. You have injured. I don't mind. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa... "I don't mind you have injured, but I request you that you chant." This should be missionary... But they are thinking, "These people, empty stomach, they have come to us. We are... We don't require any God. We have got industry." This is going on. Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī. Find out this verse, Bhagavad-gītā. Hari-śauri: What was that? Prabhupāda: Yā niśā. Yā. Y. *Hari-śauri: Y. Yā niśā sarva*-bhūtānām? Prabhupāda: Hm. (Hindi) But they are kept in darkness. This civilization is like that. Hari-śauri: *Mr. Asnani: Prabhupāda, in this stanza, I have not followed a little. That stanza which he just read it. Now, a spiritual*-bent-of-mind person, he sleeps in the daytime. Prabhupāda: Materialist person... Mr. Asnani: He sleeps in the nighttime, and there's trouble in his thoughts. Whereas a spiritual man, he's awoke in the nighttime and sleep in the daytime. *Prabhupāda: First of all let us understand what is sleeping and awakening. This is the real understanding. The materialistic man, he's sleeping about self*-realization. He has no information. Mr. Asnani: He has no? *Prabhupāda: Information. But the spiritualistic man, he's awakened in that, that this life is meant for self*-realization. So the materialistic man, he does not know. He's kept in darkness of night, and the spiritualistic man is awakened. That is the difference. Mr. Asnani: Why the night...? Prabhupāda: Night means ignorance, when one sleeps. Yes. And day is awakening. So what is day for the materialistic person, so that is night for the spiritualistic person. And what is day for the spiritualistic person, that is night for the... Just like a spiritualist person, he has sacrificed everything and he is after God, and they are thinking, "These rascals, unnecessarily, empty stomach, wasting, 'Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa,' chant." They are deriding. And he is thinking that "This rascal got this human form of body. Instead of spiritual culture, he's spoiling his life, cats and dogs." That means in the subject matter where the spiritualists were not interested, he is interested. And in the subject matter, the spiritual person, interested, he is not interested. This is day and night. Mr. Asnani: Oh, I was taking sometime in literary sense. So it was sometimes confusing me. *Prabhupāda: No, it is literally, that yā niśā sarva*-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī. He, spiritualist person, he knows, that "What is the use of the sense gratification? The sense gratification is there in the cats and dogs. Why I am wasting in this way?" That is awakened. What is the difference? A man is having sex life in a very nice apartment, very decorated and nice cot. He is enjoying sex life, that "I am advanced civili..." And the dog is enjoying sex life on the street in presence of everyone. But the enjoyment of sex life is the same. There is no difference either for the dog or the man. So the spiritualistic man, he says that "Why shall I waste my time in sex enjoyment? This is enjoyed by the dogs and cats. I have got this human form of life for spiritual advancement." So saṁyamī: "Stop this nonsense. Let me cultivate spiritual life." Saṁyamī. Saṁyamī means sense gratification stopped. That is saṁyamī. And he is not saṁyamī. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram. Because he's not saṁyamī, his sense are uncontrolled, so he's opening the path of hellish condition of life. The business is the same-āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam-based on this maithuna, sex life. So you'll find the fly is doing the same thing, and the dog is doing the same thing, and the human being is also doing the same thing, and the king of heaven, he is doing the same thing. The business is the same. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Only the body is different. But they are thinking that "If in the body of Indra, I can have sex with Śacīdevi, that is advancement." He does not think that the sex life with Śacīdevī or the street dog, it is same. There is no difference. And that is jāgarti. That is awakened. There is one word. Where it is, I don't remember. Maithunam agaram ajñāḥ. This is.... This material life is a term of imprisonment of imprisonment in sex. Just like imprisonment means you are detained in a place allotted by the government, you cannot go out. So here, this material world, the imprisonment is the sex. You cannot go out. Mr. Asnani: Only sex, Prabhupāda? Or... Prabhupāda: All sex. First of all sex. Mr. Asnani: But among them, the sex is very powerful. *Prabhupāda: Puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī*-bhāvam etat. This is the basic principle of... A man and woman is married; *the purpose is sex. Now, when he's married, ataḥ gṛha*-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair. "Then where shall I enjoy sex? I must have very nice apartment, gṛha. Then I must maintain myself, kṣetra." Formerly agriculture was the source of maintenance. Ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra. "Then I get some children, suta, then some friends." Ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra-suta apta vitta. "Then money." In this way, janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti: [SB 5.5.8] "He increases this paraphernalia, and he becomes entangled:" Ahaṁ mam... "I am the proprietor; I am the father; I am this; I am that." And one day, nature's law comes, gives him a slap: "Get out!" Finished. Mr. Asnani: All relationship goes away. *Prabhupāda: Mṛtyuḥ ahaṁ sarva*-haraś ca. "I take away." Mr. Asnani: Prabhupāda, why people are not able to understand this? Prabhupāda: Fools! Mūḍho nābhijā... Mr. Asnani: Even we are encircling ourselves in the desires, cage. *Prabhupāda: Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param... They do not know the aim of life. Therefore apaśyatām ātma*-tattvam [SB 2.1.2]. Cannot see what is the aim of life. Therefore it is the duty of the parents. That is advised by Prahlāda Mahārāja. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān: [SB 7.6.1] "From the very beginning of life they should be taught about this Bhāgavata-dharma." That is brahmacārī. Brahmacārī, train him to be self-controlled... If I ask you, "Give me your sons. We shall teach him how to become self-controlled," you'll laugh. Because you know, "What will be the benefit by becoming self-controlled? There is struggle for existence. He has to earn money, maintain himself." I have got this experience. Mr. Asnani: Yes. You told my wife also. *Prabhupāda: Nobody is interested. That is the difficulty in this age. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know how one can become happy. They are simply hoping against hope. Durāśayā. Aśayā means hope, and dura means which will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Pradyumna: You wrote that essay one time, "Hope Against Hope." Prabhupāda: Yes. Hope against hope is which is never fulfilled. Mr. Asnani: Living in the fool's paradise. Prabhupāda: Yes. "This plan has failed. Now let me this, make this plan. And then again fail? All right, let me this." This is hope against hope. He's thinking that "This plan has failed. Let me do this plan." Again failed? "Again another, again another." Mr. Asnani: Foundation, as you said, is on the household. Hari-śauri: Moghāṣā. *Prabhupāda: Moghāśā mogha*-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ... [Bg. 9.12]. Hari-śauri: Baffled hope. *Prabhupāda: It will never be fulfilled, but still, they will make plan. The Napoleon made a plan. Hitler made a plan. Churchill made a plan. Gandhi made a plan. Mussolini made a plan. But the plan and planmaker*-all washed away. Things are going on as it is. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "Don't make plan. Take to My plan. You'll be happy. I'll give you." This planmaking... Our government has got planning commission. The planning commission has brought people in such a condition that they are dying of starvation. And they are taking salary, big, big, fat salary. This is going on. Mr. Asnani: And taking share from the black market also. *Prabhupāda: How you can expect good wishes from such persons? Very precarious condition. Your son, you take care. Now, as soon as you make a committee to take care of your son, then everything is finished. Is it not? The committee members will finish the son and the son's maintenance and everything. But that is going on. Formerly there was one monarch. He was acting according to the Vedic instruction. So he was responsible. And if there are many votes, by vote a government, a combination of plunderers, what they will take care of the people? It is impossible. Otherwise why there was need of dragging down Nixon? He was elected, wrong elected. Wrong must be. The people are wrong. They do not know who is the right man. Any rascal makes some intrigue, and he gets vote. And then they detect, "Oh, he's the wrong man." Again another is taken. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. And what is the guarantee that another man is right? Because the process is wrong. *Hari-śauri: They're continually re*-electing a new man. The got rid of Nixon, put Ford in. Now they've got rid of Ford; they've put Carter in. And then they'll get rid of Carter, and they'll put someone else in. *Prabhupāda: Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām: [SB 7.5.30] "Again and again chewing the chewed." But if they make it point that "If one is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I'll not give a vote," then everything will be perfect, nice. Hari-śauri: Some countries fine you if you don't vote. If you don't vote, they fine you just to make people vote, because they know otherwise everybody's so disgusted... *Prabhupāda: Just see. I have never given vote. Since we have got this sva*-rāj, as soon as the vote question, I go away. Because I think, "Why shall I give this nonsense vote? None of them are liked by me." I avoid it. In my gṛhastha life, the municipal board and the..., I avoid. I don't believe in. So give Mr. Asnani some fruits. Hari-śauri: Some fruit? Prabhupāda: Cut into pieces. Mr. Asnani: Prabhupāda, Allahabad, where are you staying? Prabhupāda: We have got our own camp. You are coming? Mr. Asnani: I am not fortunate. Prabhupāda: I am going because I have to go to Bhuvaneśvara via Calcutta. So it is on the way. And besides that, it is a big function. And because my health is not good, if Allahabad atmosphere or Bhuvaneśvara atmosphere helps me little, it is... Of all foodstuff, I see the kitri is good for me, little kitri. Mr. Asnani: Easily digested also. Prabhupāda: So I shall begin again kitri. (Hindi) [break] ...take agriculture, you must keep cows. Both of them are related. Girirāja: Together. Prabhupāda: The cow will be subsisting on the grass, and refused things he'll take. And the substance you take. And even if does not give milk, the stool is useful. And you get food grown by the cows and bulls and milk. You subsist. So by mutual cooperation you subsist. You save time. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why you are bothered? Girirāja: No bother. Prabhupāda: This I want to introduce. And it has become successful in the Western countries. They are doing very nicely, New Vrindaban. Very nice. And Philadelphia, New Orleans. Men, they're happy. So why not in India? India is mainly agricultural country. On this principle you can take. There is no objection. I left Haṁsadūta in charge, but he left everything. Girirāja: Actually, it seems that in your system of management, the basic principle is to depend on Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? He says ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo [Bg. 18.66]. Distress will be if I am disobedient. This is nature's law. And if I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, where is the question of distress? Sukha se saba hari bhaje duḥkha se haje. This is one Hindi poetry, that "When one is in distressed condition, he goes to God: 'Please save me. Give me this mercy.' " So duḥka se means: "In distressed condition he becomes a devotee." But if he becomes a devotee when he's happy, then where is the question of duḥkha, or distress? Sukha se saba hari bhaje. When you are happy, at that time if you worship Hari, then there is no question of duḥkha. That Vivekananda's policy, daridra-nārāyaṇa-seva. Why not seva-nārāyaṇa? Why He should become daridra? Why not engage in? That he does not know. "He becomes a daridra-nārāyaṇa, and I become his servant." Foolish rascal. A discovered philosophy. (end) Guest (1) (Indian man): As you have said, it comes and goes attached to the body. Prabhupāda: Today or tomorrow. Best thing is so long we have got this opportunity of human form of life, let us cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is... Guest (1): I came other day also and you were advised by the doctors not to see you. *Prabhupāda: No*-doctor says like that. I see everyone. Guest (1): So Gopāla Kṛṣṇa told me... That was the first day with the doctor. You accepted that doctor's decision. So it was first day when I came. So Gopāla Kṛṣṇa told me this is the problem as it is, and I'm not disappointed at all. I am one with Prabhupāda so there is no difficulty. So I took a chance today. Prabhupāda: So I did not like that idea. Guest (1): No, but sometimes, Prabhupāda, just to keep... You may not require your body for yourself, but we require your body also for ourselves. So we, all the devotees, always pray to our Lord to give you a long physical body and healthy so that the cause which you have taken up in your hand should be completely fulfilled. This is the way I feel. Prabhupāda: Yes, I also desire at least let me finish... Guest (1): I have gone to the Fourth Canto, Fifth Canto. Prabhupāda: We have finished now Eighth Canto, and Ninth Canto is also at the press. Tenth Canto is already printed, this Kṛṣṇa as the summary of Tenth. Now I have to publish in detail. Guest (1): We have been praying, Prabhupāda, to Lord Kṛṣṇa that we want him for a long time. Till this movement is fully bloomed and blossomed. So for our sake your body has to last. Prabhupāda: After all, it is Kṛṣṇa's body. Guest (1): Yes. But what I said we pray for not for your sake but for our sake. Prabhupāda: The body is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Yes. And through you we get inspirations. If we go to wrong path we remember you. Prabhupāda: The similar question was Sanātana Gosvāmī. Sanātana Gosvāmī, after leaving his..., resigning his post, he was living as a mendicant, and there was no bodily comfort. Naturally there was eczema, and it is wet eczema. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as soon as will meet him, immediately embrace him. So he would say, "Don't touch me! This is not for Your..., touch me. This is the disease..." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu... "I'm touching just to purify Myself." Then he consulted some friends, that "Caitanya Mahāprabhu will not hear me and He'll touch forcibly. Better I give up this body." He desired to commit suicide. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "Do you think it is your body? You already dedicated to Me for My service. How you are thinking in that way? It is not your body." Then his body became release from all this eczema. He was thinking like that, that "Caitanya Mahāprabhu forcibly embraces me and my body is so unclean. Better I shall give up." So He said, "It is no longer your body. You have dedicated the body to Me. You have no right to think like that." Guest (1): We are, Śrīla Prabhupāda, small children. You take us with your fingers to the path. Prabhupāda: The path is open. Guest (1): Yes. But sometimes we falter in the path. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... [Bg. 18.66], ahaṁ tvāṁ sarvapāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. It is open for you. It is open secret. Guest (1): We make mistakes. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But path... Mahat sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes [SB 5.5.2]. Everything is there. That is the difficulty. Although everything is there... Guest (1): But I'm sure that with your protection, Prabhupāda, I'll reach the goal which I have contemplated. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving protection. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarvapāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. But still we are not agreeable. Kṛṣṇa says that "I shall give you protection from all reaction of sinful life." But we are not taking that protection. You simply surrender. It is only process. Guest (1): I am taking your shelter, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, I am not talking of me. I mean to say generally everything is declared. We have to take advantage of this. Then it is everything. Guest (1): I mean to say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Lord Kṛṣṇa also has said that "My pure devotees are more powerful than Me." Prabhupāda: You have all my blessings. You have done so much for Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): So, Prabhupāda, I can come here till you are here. I thought that I should not, because medically you are not advised to. You talk less, but at least we will have your darśana. Prabhupāda: No, no. Five to seven you can come. Guest (1): That is sufficient for us without much... We will take your leave so that you can have rest. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Guest (1): Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Prasādam? [break] Jaya. How are your sons? Guest (2) (Indian man): One was sick for six months. Prabhupāda: Why? Guest (2): He was getting a temperature. He was weak. Prabhupāda: What is the age? Guest (2): He is twelve years. Prabhupāda: Only? That's all. What does he say? Guest (2): What do you say? He has... He is now in my car. I brought him from Bombay. Prabhupāda: So you are living there or what? Guest (2): They were staying here. They could not get subsequent accommodations. We have shifted to some hotel here, near Juhu. Prabhupāda: Hotel? There is no sufficient place here? Devotee: He was here, but there were many many life members. Guest (2): Many life members were here, and so there was not accommodation. So they were told or they voluntarily shifted to the hotel. Because many life members came from abroad here on Christmas, and all that. So therefore the accommodation was not there, so some shifted in Juhu. Some hotel. They come here every day. Prabhupāda: No... Your woman you can live together. Guest (2): They're living together. Both ladies are living together. She wants to buy some land at Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: When you have come? Bhavabhūtī: Just today, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Just today from Madras. I closed the bank account there. Also I was in Madras, there's one movie playing there by the government. The name of the movie is called, "From the Indus Valley to Indira Gandhi." It's a government movie put out, and in the movie there's a picture of the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees chanting and also a display of your books. Prabhupāda: Acchā? *Bhavabhūtī: And it's giving... This is a movie put out by the government of India, and it included us in it, and it's very favorable for us. It actually includes a picture of devotees chanting, and it shows the books, saying how this sanātana*-dharma is being spread to other countries. I think it is very favorable that the government is now accepting us. *Guest (2): Things are going very good for our movement here. Other day I was with one Air India officer, and I told him, "Why don't you attract more tourists and show pictures of Hare Kṛṣṇa and what our activities in India?" To attract more tourists by giving our activities in India. They said we will discuss. They will be discussing with me in the... And of course I will take Girirāja and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. And one school which is a very famous school in Bombay, center of the city where all the affluent people are staying-that school is very big school, good school*-they have agreed that once in a week we can give you forty-five minutes to your... Prabhupāda: Saṅkīrtana. Guest (2): Saṅkīrtana. So this I will be discussing with Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. And there are about 1500 students in that school from... Prabhupāda: Kīrtana can be performed. So the movie, how long it is? Bhavabhūtī: It's a one and a half hour movie, and we're in about eight minutes of it. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Eight minutes. Showing our books? That I want. Let them read our books. Then they'll understand what we are. Bhavabhūtī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I just visited also our boat program on the Ganga. Śravanānanda has the boat. They distributed 15,000 Back to Godheads in one month in Bengali. Fifteen thousand. So I have challenged Śravanānanda. I told him we're going to distribute more Hindi books on this side of the country. Prabhupāda: No, there the Hindi is not... Bhavabhūtī: But here in this side we're going to start to distribute this Hindi Back to Godhead very profusely, just like in America. Prabhupāda: And what about Gītār Gān? Bhavabhūtī: Yes. Also that's included. Fifteen thousand BTG's and Gītār Gāns included. The boys are so enthusiastic now... Prabhupāda: In the boat? *Bhavabhūtī: Yes. On the boat. But even when we came into Calcutta-it was a two-hour train ride*-the boys were not simply sitting. They were going from car to car selling books. One boy he sold fifty BTG's just coming from outside of Calcutta to Calcutta. Just two-hour train ride. He was going from car to car, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," and he would give them Bengali Back to Godhead. And they are taking very nicely now. All along the Ganga... Prabhupāda: They know how to... (laughs) It is for them that the movement is being pushed on. Guest (2): Sincerity in the... Two things are there. Prabhupāda: Everything they are doing. That is... Because these American boys and girls they are cooperating, this movement will advance. Otherwise I don't get any cooperation. Guest (2): I wish to retire soon from this my professional business as early as I can, and settle here. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): With your graces it can materialize. Prabhupāda: Give prasādam. Guest (2): I got prasādam. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. Jaya. (Hindi?) Guest (1): (Hindi?) You are our father. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] India is still for monarchy. Not for democracy. They would like. If they get ideal king they'll accept it. So if you can, and if she's serious, let her become ideal... People will worship him like God. But she must be sincere. It is a fact. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā. She must be a pure devotee, then everything will... Let her son become pure devotee, become a devotee... She has respect for our movement. That's a fact. And Home Member also. Otherwise so much propaganda against us, they would have taken some steps. They can take any steps they like. They are in power. Girirāja: That's true. Prabhupāda: If I am in power, give the dog a bad name and hang it. Who is going to check me? The same story, the lion and the lamb? No? A lion was drinking water this side and one lamb was drinking water that side. So the lion saw it is very nice food. So he wanted to kill with some plea, "Oh, you are making my water muddy!" "Sir, I am here so far. How I can make your water muddy?" (laughs) In this way he picked up some quarrel and jumped over. So he's lion and he's a lamb. So it is no difficult for the lion to kill a lamb under some plea. "Might is right." There has been so much propaganda and CIA, this Communist propaganda, this Blitz propaganda. In Bengal there was heavy propaganda against our... Girirāja: Bhavānanda. Prabhupāda: Bhavānanda. Nothing was done. Girirāja: Yes. It's true. Prabhupāda: And Lalitā says that "I know Swamiji is very exalted. I am simply afraid... He has so many American disciples. If some of them do something wrong, that will be very bad thing for him." Lalitā was telling me. What can I do? Come anyone. Who is bad, who is good I do not know. But I know even bad man comes, he becomes a good man. That I know. So who will come? How can I discriminate who is bad or who is good? Girirāja: Lord Caitanya also welcomed everyone. *Prabhupāda: Hm. Caitanya's movement is pāpī tāpī yata chilo hari*-nāme uddharilo. All sinful men, all suffering humanity, simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, they were. Pāpī tāpī yata chilo hari-nāme uddharilo. How it is possible? Tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. You see the Jagāi-Mādhāi, how they became Vaiṣṇava. This is Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's song. So you have to ask anything? *Pradyumna: Just one thing. What does... It said in a text in just one wife*-about Jarāsandha. Jarāsandha. Actually the story in Mahābhārata is that one half came from one wife and another half came from another. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pradyumna: And it said, amyasya mati bayayam sakale dve bṛhad*-rathāt ye mātra jarayā cāpi sundite. And they're joined by sundite, by Jara. Jīvo jīvete krīdāṁ kriyā jarāsandho 'bhavat sūta. So jīva jīva? Become... Prabhupāda: Become alive. Jīva. Become alive. Pradyumna: You had here, "O living entity, just be alive"? Prabhupāda: Jīva, addressing jīvete. "Be alive." Pradyumna: And kridantya. "Playing like that"? Prabhupāda: Playing, joining. Get, be alive, be alive. Like that. Hari-śauri: Is that Jarāsandha? *Pradyumna: Then translation, "In the womb of two other wives, two parts were begotten from Bṛhadratha. The mothers, seeing such parts, rejected them. Later on, one she*-demon by the name Jara joined the parts." Then sounded like "engaged"? Prabhupāda: Playfully. Pradyumna: Playfully, "joined the parts playfully"? Prabhupāda: Joining playfully. Pradyumna: Then she said, jīva jīva? Prabhupāda: "Get into life! Get into life!" Pradyumna: "And having been joined by Jara in this way..." "In this way, having been joined by Jara, the son Jarāsandha was born. And by joining the parts playfully, saying, 'Get into life.' " Prabhupāda: She found two parts. Generally just like play in our childhood some doll is broken. So we used to put the head again. Pradyumna: Ah. Prabhupāda: So similarly, the head is there: "Join, join! You live! You live!" Like that. You had no opportunity to play like that? Every... Girirāja: Every child. Prabhupāda: If some dish is broken we used to try to join it. That is child's play. Pradyumna: And the thing about Śukadeva Gosvāmī, that he was actually a different... That chāyā-śuka. He was different from that other... Brahmacārī Śukadeva Gosvāmī, speaker of Bhāgavata, was different from the householder. Prabhupāda: What is the word? Pradyumna: It said in the purport, chāyā-śuka. So you said that is like imitation Śuka, duplicate Śukadeva. Prabhupāda: Oh, chāyā-śuka. Yes. Duplicate. Yes. So it is up to date? Pradyumna: One little... Prabhupāda: I am not working nowadays. Still it is not up to date? Pradyumna: I just have to go over a few things then I'm sending out. Prabhupāda: I'm doing very little. Anyway... Pradyumna: No, it's just this last chapter. *Prabhupāda: I am in the Twenty*-second Chapter. *Pradyumna: Yes. You're in Twenty*-second Chapter. Twenty-first I'm going to send out. Prabhupāda: And two chapters more will finish Ninth Canto. Hari-śauri: You did quite a bit last night. Prabhupāda: Yes. If people actually taking like that, then there will be a revolution in Western country. Hari-śauri: I don't see how they can stop it. They can't stop it. Prabhupāda: Huge quantity selling. Either Kṛṣṇa's desire... It is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Otherwise a religious book which is not their religion, *Bhāgavatam*, Indian. So somehow or other it is being distributed, and they say it is spreading like... Girirāja: Epidemic. Prabhupāda: Epidemic. So it is a kind of revolution. Hari-śauri: And it's not just in one place. It's every country our men have been to. Prabhupāda: Every country. Whole Europe and America. What business they have got to purchase our books in Christmas? They have no business. Why they are purchasing? Huge quantity. I never dreamed even (laughs) that my books would be sold in large quantity. Hari-śauri: They sold over one million... *Prabhupāda: Bon Mahārāja published a portion of the Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Eleven hundred books. Still lying for the last ten years. Hari-śauri: Bon Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: And he's the rectum of... (laughs) He can pass stool very nice. (laughter). There was no second printing. And so many scholars , MA, PhD, and so on, so on, so on. Our Dr. Kapoor wrote some books. It was given to some Benarsi. They first of all took it, then they refused, "No. We cannot publish." Hari-śauri: They won't publish his books. Prabhupāda: Who will take it? A philosophical textbook. There's nobody interested. Actually there is no customer for philosophy nowadays. Hari-śauri: They can't... None of these men, they just don't seem to have any realized knowledge. They write things, but it's so dry that no one wants to read it. It's so distasteful. But when you read one of your books it's so full of life. It's just to the point. It exactly describes how everybody's living, how they're thinking, what the troubles and tribulations they're going through, how... Prabhupāda: Somehow or other it is interesting. Hari-śauri: Yes. It's so full of... Prabhupāda: (laughs) Otherwise why people take it? When I was... I thought that I am giving my imagination, who will take it? It is my imagination. Of course with reference to the modern politics, sociology, everything. Whenever possible I touch. Hari-śauri: But your preaching is so practical. These other men when they speak, it just comes out... It's just not practical or they don't know how to translate it into action. Prabhupāda: Yes. I try to write. I explained in that verse, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. I've touched all the points in the modern... Girirāja: It has a very nice purport. Prabhupāda: Find out that. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. Parjanyaḥ... Pradyumna: Oh, I know. Prabhupāda: I've touched the slaughterhouse, brothel... Hari-śauri: I just finished reading that Perfection of Yoga. It's an amazing book. Each chapter gradually leads more and more to the ultimate goal. Prabhupāda: They were my beginning speeches in your country, in America. I was daily speaking in... So Hayagrīva has edited. Hm. What is the purport? Pradyumna: "The basic principle of economic development is centered on land and cows." Prabhupāda: That idea I'm still maintaining. Yes. Pradyumna: "The necessities of human society are food grains, fruits, milk, minerals, clothing, wood, etc. One requires all these items to fulfill the material needs of the body. Certainly one does not require flesh and fish or iron tools and machinery. During the regime of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, all over the world there were regulated rainfalls. Rainfalls are not in the control of the human being. The heavenly king Indradeva is the controller of rains, and he is the servant of the Lord. When the Lord is obeyed by the king and the people under the king's administration, there are regulated rains from the horizon, and these rains are the causes of all varieties of production on the land. Not only do regulated rains help ample production of grains and fruits, but when they combine with astronomical influences there is ample production of valuable stones and pearls. Grains and vegetables can sumptuously feed a man and animals, and the fatty cow delivers enough milk to supply a man sumptuously with vigor and vitality." Prabhupāda: Now Kīrtanānanda has sent so nice sweets. Hari-śauri: And ghee. Prabhupāda: You have given something all other devotees? Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Give him some. Hari-śauri: Pālikā hid them somewhere. I don't know where they are. Pālikā hid them away so no one would take them. (laughs) Prabhupāda: All right then. Preparing first class. Hari-śauri: Kulādri has a box. Prabhupāda: First class. And they have got enough milk. When I went there, all nice milk preparation. Ghee, sweet rice, these sweets. Ample. All variety. And they have ghee. Then prepare kachori, samosa. Such nice thing. And how friendly the cows. Just like family members. And they're giving more economically. That's practical. More milk. Then? Pradyumna: "If there is enough milk, enough grains, enough fruit, enough cotton, enough silk, and enough jewels, then why do the people need cinemas, houses of prostitution, slaughterhouses, etc? What is the need of an artificial luxurious life of cinema, cars, radio, flesh, and hotels? Has this civilization produced anything but quarreling, individually and nationally? Has this civilization enhanced the cause of equality and fraternity by sending thousands of men into a hellish factory and warfields at the whims of a particular man? It is said here that the cows used to moisten the pasturing land with milk." It's nice. You compare the warfield and the factory. I think people appreciate that. You compare the factory with the warfield. Prabhupāda: Yes. So whatever thought comes to me, I discuss as far as possible. Why these things are... Therefore I want to organize this farm project. Let there be ideal. And it is becoming ideal in America. People are coming even from the school, college, they are coming to see New Vrindaban. And there was section where our enemies, they are not disturbing. So they are appreciating. Still we are not thoroughly organized, but still they're appreciating. They'll appreciate. One day will come they'll appreciate. And other parents, as they come and thank me, "Swamiji, it is our great fortune that..." Many parents came when I was in Los Angeles. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's becoming more organized now. They have a Parents for Krishna group now. Prabhupāda: Any sane man will appreciate. Why this father, mother, came to congratulate me? "Swamiji, you have done so..." It is Kṛṣṇa's desire that everyone be happy. They'll take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then? *Pradyumna: "It is said here that the cows used to moisten the pasturing land with milk because their milk bags were fatty and the animals were joyful. Do they not require, therefore, proper protection for a joyful life by being fed with a sufficient quantity of grass in the field? Why should men kill cows for their selfish purposes? Why should men not be satisfied with grains, fruits and milk, which combined together can produce hundreds and thousands of palatable dishes? Why are there slaughterhouses all over the world to kill innocent animals? Mahārāja Parīkṣit, grandson of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, while touring his vast kingdom, saw a black man attempting to kill a cow. The king at once arrested the butcher and chastised him sufficiently. Should not a king or executive head protect the lives of the poor animals who are unable to defend themselves? Is this humanity? Are not the animals of a country citizens also? Then why are they allowed to be butchered in organized slaughterhouses? Are these the signs of equality, fraternity, and nonviolence? Therefore, in contrast with the modern, advanced, civilized form of government, an autocracy like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's is by far superior to a so*-called democracy in which animals are killed and a man less than an animal is allowed to cast votes for another less-than-animal-man." Prabhupāda: That's all (laughing) we have said. You can do one thing. You have got nim tree? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Take... I think you have got nim leaf dried? Hari-śauri: Not since we've been in India. We've been using fresh nim leaves. Prabhupāda: You have got stock? Hari-śauri: No. Not at the moment. Prabhupāda: That nim, if not in bara form, if you make some tablet, round. Something sticky. Hari-śauri: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Then I can take two pills in the morning. That will help. This nim, tickly, and bara is very good. But you people say that... (laughs) Hari-śauri: The ghee's not. Prabhupāda: Ghee's not good, that I can understand. But without little ghee, we cannot eat at all. Hari-śauri: There's no harm for a small amount. There's not much harm for... Prabhupāda: We have to take very little. Hari-śauri: Wouldn't it be better just to take some fresh leaf? Prabhupāda: Fresh leaf, how can I chew it? Hari-śauri: Too bitter. Hm. I'll get some dried. I can dry some on the roof tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Not dry. You have to take fresh leaf. But you have to make... Hari-śauri: Just mash it. I can just mash it and make it. That would be all right. Prabhupāda: Or if you make two or three baras with nim, that is easy to take, and palatable. With chick pea flour, fresh nim leaf paste and equal quantity of chick pea flour. Just fry it. Hari-śauri: Oh. Like those spinach pakoras. Prabhupāda: Yes. Arundhati was doing that in Vṛndāvana. Hari-śauri: With nim leaf? Prabhupāda: Yes. She was doing nice. Hari-śauri: You would like those for breakfast? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good for the... So if Arundhati makes, she can come and tomorrow make one or two baras in the morning. Hari-śauri: For your breakfast. Prabhupāda: So you are keeping your health all right? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: All right. Hari-śauri: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Prabhupāda: ...in Vṛndāvana. And try to organize this Gurukula as their world attraction. That will be your success. Simply teach them nicely English and Sanskrit. And our books are there. And regular habits: going to the Yamunā in procession, timely get up early in the morning, attending class, clean dress, clean bedding, clean room. Śikhā*-sūtra. The Vāmanadeva gave this description. Where is that book? Jagadīśa: I don't know. Pradyumna may have taken it. Prabhupāda: There were two books. Woman... Girls should be taught how to become faithful wife, how to learn nice cooking, cleansing, dressing. Simple method. There is no objection of their becoming scholar, but that is not necessary. They have got natural inclination to give service by cooking, cleansing, dressing. Cleanliness is the first necessity. That is hygienic, spiritual, and calm, quiet. India has got special facility to remain clean. Only in this country you can take thrice bathing. In other countries... Easy there. In your country there is hot water. There is no difficulty if one practices. I think our men have such practice. But this cleanness is this taking bathing at least twice. That keeps a man very clean. Jagadīśa: Yes. Since I've been taking two baths a day, unless I have two baths I don't feel clean. Sometimes I am very busy and don't get to bathe twice, and then I feel very dirty. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: I don't feel clean if I don't have three. Prabhupāda: Also, he also. He also takes. So if it is practiced, it keeps health very nice. I was taking all along. Since I was attacked, heart, they said you should be kept from catching cold. *Hari-śauri: You wanted that description of Vāmanadeva as the dwarf brahmacārī? It says, "Mother earth gave Him a deerskin, and the demigod of the moon, who is the king of the forest, gave Him a brahma*-daṇḍa, the rod of a brahmacārī. His mother, Aditi, gave Him a cloth for underwear, and the Deity presiding over the heavenly kingdom offered Him an umbrella. O King, Lord Brahmā offered a waterpot to the inexhaustible Supreme Personality of Godhead. The seven sages offered Him kuśa grass, and mother Sarasvatī gave Him a string of rudrākṣa beads. When Vāmanadeva had thus been given the sacred thread, Kuvera, the king of the Yakṣas, gave Him a pot for begging alms." Prabhupāda: In Kanpur there is a brahmacārī aśrama. Sometimes gṛhasthas, they invite the brahmacārīs to feed them, and when a brahmacārī is initiated, they give them this pot. So that brahmacārī aśrama, the man who is maintaining, he occasionally collects these pots, so, and he sells all these pots to a brass merchant. People give sacred thread, a pot. As they give in charity to the brāhmaṇas, they give in charity to the brahmacārīs. Hari-śauri: It says, "Kuvera, the king of the Yakṣas, gave Him a..." Prabhupāda: Another system is: during the initiation time, somebody becomes godmother of the brahmacārī and gives some money. Hari-śauri: It's described here. It says, "Kuvera gave Him a pot for begging alms, and mother Bhagavati, the wife of Lord Śiva and most chaste mother of the entire universe, gave Him His first alms." *Prabhupāda: Bhikṣa*-mātā. Bhikṣa means giving alms. At least every woman becomes a bhikṣa-mātā, alms-giving mother. This is system. My mother was bhikṣa-mātā to one brāhmaṇa. He is the son of our priest. Family priest, family guru, vipra-mātā, still in Hindu family, the system is still going on, brāhmaṇa visiting daily, informing, "Today is this tithi. The duty is this, the sunrise at this time is..." This is brāhmaṇa's duty, to go to the neighboring householders, and whatever they give, take. That is brāhmaṇa's art. At the same time, they keep some medicine. Every house there is some ailments. They'll give some medicine. Still. Now it is not so... In our childhood every day some brāhmaṇa visitor would come. So I will take massage like yesterday, early. Hari-śauri: Right here? Prabhupāda: Hm, hm. I want to show again. Hari-śauri: Yes. Pālikā's in there now. Prabhupāda: So why Pālikā is not helping her to get the beads? Hari-śauri: She's already got it on. I don't know why she didn't come out. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi*-woman answers in Hindi) Call Pālikā. Just teach her... Take her in the kitchen and teach her how to make tilaka. Pālikā: How to make tilaka, yes. *Prabhupāda: Tilaka, dvādaśa*-tilaka. You just go and learn. [break] What is that? [break] Otherwise there is no death. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Actually there is no death. This forgetfulness is death. We have forgotten: "Who was our father, who was our mother, where I was born?" That is death. And otherwise I am the soul, continuing. Just like in childhood so many things we did, but we have forgotten. The forgetfulness is death. The more one forgets, the more one is dead. Otherwise there is no death. Na jāyate na mriyate vā: "Never takes birth, never dies." Then what is death? Death is forgetfulness. So you can begin now. [break] ...big, big buildings, the same spirit as karmīs are doing. But this desire to construct very big building, when transferred for Kṛṣṇa, that is bhakti. So we have got this tendency, everyone, to possess money, to have very big buildings and so on, so on. You do it for Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be bhakti. Otherwise karma. And karma means to be bound up by the laws of nature. So? What is...? [break] *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...parāyanaḥ sudurlabhaḥ praśāntātmā koṭiṣv api mahā*-mune. "O great sage, out of many millions of materially liberated people who are free from ignorance, and out of many millions of siddhas who have merely attained perfection, there's hardly one pure devotee of Nārāyaṇa. Only such a devotee is actually completely satisfied and peaceful." Prabhupāda: This is devotee. It is not so easy. But we are giving chance to everyone to come to that position. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But otherwise it is very, very... Muktānām. It begins from the mukta, liberated. Liberated means no more material anxiety. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That stage is little far for us. Prabhupāda: But if you follow the vow... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The principles... Prabhupāda: ...then it will be possible. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I find that as a gṛhastha only sometimes it's a little difficult because a gṛhastha has to worry about taking care of his... Prabhupāda: Family. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...family's needs, clothing, this, that. It becomes a problem, where to get the money from. But otherwise... Prabhupāda: And that is also different standard. People are not satisfied with simple living. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So they want... Prabhupāda: Therefore there is certain age, that "At this age no more such ambition, material. Lead simple life and advance." That is after fiftieth year. This is our Vedic system. In the beginning it is not possible, but by practicing... So if one lives for hundred years, fifty years' extravagancy, "Now stop. Now be regulated and try to be mukta." This is the system. But they don't want even up to the point of death, even men like Gandhi and others. They do not want. This morning Indira Gandhi said that "I am for the mass of people." And Vivekananda, "My country." The same feeling as a person, individual person thinking of his family, these people are thinking of his country, a big family, not for the whole living entities, jīva. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Nobody is interested in the śāstric injunction. They've lost them all... Temporary... This is an institution to elevate people gradually. [break] If we follow our own... (microphone moving) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It is not very difficult. I don't find it very... Prabhupāda: Not at all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But I used to work in New York outside all the time, but I didn't find it so difficult. Prabhupāda: No one will. It is not at all difficult. The principles, the regulation we have started, it will automatically bring them to that stage. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When one chants sincerely and attends all the temple programs, then automatically one... Prabhupāda: (sharp rapping sound: light switch flicking on and off) No electricity. Stop this fan. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Stop the fan? Śrīla Prabhupāda, I may not be going to the Kumbhamela. I'm going to stay in Bombay and later on go to Delhi and Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: That's all right. There is Gurudāsa and there others. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Because there's lot of work to do, and I'm printing lot of books now, so... Prabhupāda: No, you stay here. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Plus there's lot of income tax. The income tax is so bad, the government laws, that ISKCON cannot even sell books. Even if we sell books we are considered to be a profit*-making organization. We can give books away for a donation but not sell it. They are such... Tomorrow our auditor is coming on site. He's coming with two, one income tax lawyer, who is our new lawyer now. Very nice man. Prabhupāda: So you want to keep there? (end) *Prabhupāda: Let them chant and take prasādam. They'll... Everyone will get. Then gradually, as a snake charming, by chanting, chanting, chanting, then they will be subdued. And that is guaranteed process. There is no doubt. Anyone, even a man is like a snake. In material world everyone is a snake, envious. Snake is very envious. You are passing by the side, "Oh! You are passing by my side?" This is snake. No offense. Because he is passing*-he has got the poison-he'll utilize it. This is snake. Without offense. If somebody hurts him or tramples him-no. "Oh, you are so daring? You are passing? You do not know I am snake." Sarpaḥ kruraḥ khalaḥ kruraḥ sarpāt krurataraḥ khalaḥ. There are similarly men also. Unnecessarily they are envious, offensive, unnecessary. They cannot tolerate others' opulence. Just like our Godbrothers. They are envious. What I have done to them? I am doing my business, trying to serve my Guru Mahārāja. But they are envious because I am so opulent. I have got so much fame, so many influence, so much influence all over the world. Everyone is praising me about... That is ignorance. And this is regrettable because they are posing themselves as Vaiṣṇava. Ordinary man can do that, but they are dressing like Vaiṣṇava, and they are so envious. That Tīrtha Mahārāja, unnecessarily he was envious, whole life fighting, fighting, fighting in the court and died. Simply planning. So who has gone for the beads? Simply planning. So who has gone for the beads? Hari-śauri: She's just got some beads. Jagadīśa: Oh, she's got? Prabhupāda: Let her come. Hari-śauri: She was just trying to put them on. Prabhupāda: So there is no woman here? Devotee (1): No. Prabhupāda: She can help her tilaka. Call Pālikā. Jagadīśa: Tilaka is already on. Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) I think Mathura train also goes early in the morning. You have taken before? Jagadīśa: Not from Bombay. *Prabhupāda: Two, three train goes, one Frontier Mail, one Deluxe Express and another*-three trains for Delhi. It takes, altogether, from here to Delhi, nineteen hours. And Mathura, still two hours less. And from Mathura it is six miles. There are buses, ricksha. Hari-śauri: There's a woman coming now to put on her neckbeads. (end) *Morning Discussionabout Kumbhamela-*-January 8, 1977, Bombay Gurudāsa: ...drafts Gopāla sent me, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu sent me were uncashable. Prabhupāda: Why? Gurudāsa: Because he sent them first in one man's name who didn't cash them, or was instructed that he shouldn't do that, and he did by mistake. Then he sent them in my name and he sent them "account payee," and they wouldn't open an account without permission from the Reserve Bank of India. So that would have taken too long. So I've come... First I went to Calcutta, and I thought... I have the drafts. I thought maybe Gargamuni Swami could give me the lakṣmī, the money. But he didn't want to do it. So now I'm here. I'm going to get it this morning and go back. I wrote a complete report for you, but I'll tell it to you. As far as the location goes, the location is a little bit off. I'm not that satisfied with it, but... Prabhupāda: Where is the location? *Gurudāsa: It's on what's called Gangadwip. But that's new place. It's an island that just appeared this year, splitting the Ganges in two. You know, Jushi is here, and Gangadwip is here. And the place where we were last year is here. We were here last year, Gangadwip is here, and Jushi is here. And... But I've been sending out and going out on saṅkīrtana, so that will make up for our location. It's not so bad, but I want to paint a true picture. It's not so good, nor is it so bad. And there's thirteen tents. We have three bigas of land, sand. And we've made a tin enclosure all the way around. And we had a Swiss cottage tent for yourself. Swiss cottage means a room about this large from the end of the almirah to the wall and about this wide. And then a middle room about from here to the wall, and then another small room. But I was not satisfied with that, so I took that tent down, and when I left a day and a half ago I told Bhāgavata dāsa and Jagat*-guru Mahārāja, who are there, to erect a straw house for you, bigger. So they are, I hope, doing that. The difficulty was that we had no money, and therefore I've come and am going back. I had a few hundred dollars in traveler's checks which I cashed and gave it to them to keep going. Prabhupāda: Straw house is not good. Gurudāsa: No? What would you like? Because a straw house retains the heat during the day. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if there is fire it will be... Gurudāsa: I see. We made a separate latrine for you and separate shower, etc. That is all enclosed. So what would you like? A big tent? Prabhupāda: I do not know, but a straw house... Is there any chance of setting, getting fire? Gurudāsa: Well, your kitchen is apart, in tin. So that... The kitchen would be safe. Otherwise why would there be any fire? The outside is also tin. There would only be your house. Now, I can make a tin house if you want, but... Prabhupāda: No, tin house will be... Gurudāsa: Not so good. Straw is the best. *Prabhupāda: That is best, but fire protection*-wise... Gurudāsa: Well, one thing I was thinking we can put shamiyanas on the outside of it or the inside. I looked at the other camps, and most of the big ācāryas, etc., they have straw houses. Prabhupāda: Straw. Gurudāsa: Therefore I thought if they have, then you should have. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. But one gentleman wants to give us a house. Gurudāsa: Kapoor? Prabhupāda: Ha, ha. Have you seen that? Gurudāsa: No. Not yet. I've been too busy. To get to any place you have to walk. But the first thing I did, I got a... Prabhupāda: Why to walk? Gurudāsa: Well, I hired a autoscooter for the day, but there's so many things to do that since you had a place to live, I put that..., that I'm going to see it, but I didn't do it immediately. I went to see Munshi's camp though. Now, that is three miles away. That I walked to. It took one and a half hours to go. Prabhupāda: One and a half hours! Gurudāsa: From our camp. And one and a half hours back. They kept on saying, "Sida, sida! Agi, agi!" And finally I got there. And their camp is not nicer than ours. It would mean a saving of approximately... Prabhupāda: At the cost of inconvenience. Gurudāsa: But it wouldn't even save that much money, because our tents... When I got there, the one thing that was up, were our tents. Prabhupāda: Where is the Mamford(?) Gandhi? Do you know? Gurudāsa: No. At Kapoor's house. I will go and see. Also Gopāla Kṛṣṇa mentioned a Ghosh. I'm going to get all the addresses from Jagadīśa prabhu and look into it. Prabhupāda: Oh, Dr. Ghosh. Gurudāsa: Dr. Ghosh. Prabhupāda: Dr. Ghosh is a little off. Gurudāsa: But Gopāla Prabhu said that you would rather live in our camp. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: So then we'll make the best house we can for you. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gurudāsa: Now, will you have blankets with you, or should we get everything there? I'll talk to you about it later. Prabhupāda: I have got my overcoat. Gurudāsa: It's very cold. We'll... Hari-śauri: We can discuss it. *Gurudāsa: Yes. Whatever is possible. So there's a couple of other points. Number one*-because you were speaking about the devotees becoming like Rāvaṇa on the roof, we're doing our own cooking. I have our own men. And one assistant cook I hired for a hundred rupees. This assistant cook is a very nice man. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Gurudāsa: He's so submissive. Prabhupāda: I can cook my food in fifteen minutes, in so many varieties. Gurudāsa: You used to do that. *Prabhupāda: Not fifteen, forty*-five. Gurudāsa: You used to do that in your cooker. Prabhupāda: I yesterday... Yesterday I did, and it was so nice. Everyone appreciated. Gurudāsa: Acchā. Well, you can do whatever you like. The cooks wanted things like 4,500 rupees with pots, and I said, "This is outrageous!" So, no. So now our own men... Prabhupāda: 4,500? Hari-śauri: To hire a cook, hire some cooks, they want that much money. Gurudāsa: Everyone is cheating for the Mela. So I said, "No, no." So I said to our men, "We must do it." So I think we'll be able to do it. I preached to them. Prabhupāda: No, last year we were doing ourselves, our Swami... Who...? Gurudāsa: Who was that? *Prabhupāda: He's well*-known swami. I forget his name. Was in England? Hari-śauri: Revatīnandana? Prabhupāda: Revatīnandana. No, Revatīnandana. Yes, Revatī... Hari-śauri: He was in England. Gurudāsa: He was cooking. He's a good cook. Prabhupāda: He has cooked very nice. *Gurudāsa: Anyway, I have three men cooking now and... So that will be all right. Now, the officials are cooperating with us nicely, of the Mela. The other day Kamalapati Tripati was there, and we saw him, and all the officials were there, and he said, "Oh, hello! How are you? Everything all right?" And we said, "Yes." And it was a very nice conversation. And all the other officials saw that we were on friendly basis with the minister, so they were also more friendly. One unfortunate thing happened, a small unfortunate thing, a sukhi*-duḥkhi. We went to the saṅgam with our kīrtana party during the time of the big..., the fifth bath. It's not the biggest one, but many pilgrims came. And we said we should chant and also bathe. So first we chanted. Then we went in for bath at four o'clock in the morning. Very refreshing, very nice. We went in, and we had our bath. Then we put our clothes on. We chanted, and we were very happy chanting. The police came, many police on horses, and said, "Get out!" And they were demons, like "Get out!" And I got a press pass. I said, "Why should we get out? We're only here to chant the holy names of God. This is a Mela." "Well, then," he said, "get out!" He's a demon, and he's taking his horse and pushing it on me and the other devotees. So he forced us out. So Bhāgavata dāsa went to the Mela officials who we had some..., and complained. And the policeman was suspended and made a public apology. And now we have a letter that says we can chant any place we want in the Mela with police cooperation. Prabhupāda: Then it is fortunate, fortunate. Gurudāsa: Yes, very good. A blessing in disguise, yes. So they're trying to organize. There's many bhangis who pick up the stool. Prabhupāda: The place is nice then. Gurudāsa: Oh, yes. And I cut down the pandal size. Originally the pandal was 100 by 150, 100 feet wide. But I saw that were going to emphasize saṅkīrtana and I measured that 120 by 75 was adequate. Prabhupāda: Our visitors, they have got facility to come? Gurudāsa: Yes. We have Life Member tents, and some visitors have been coming. I have been receiving them. So we have... There's one thing I wanted to ask you. A lot of youths are coming, Western youths, some hippies, but mostly clean. Some hippies. But there are two hippies, and I saw what they were like, and I didn't allow them to stay. But mostly our camp is... Until the devotees come, there are some tents that are empty. So they said, "We need a place to stay. Is it all right?" So I said, "Tonight you can stay. Then I'll let you know later on." And we preached to them. We have a morning program there, and we have an evening program. So they attended. So I thought with your permission I could erect some tents, not in our living area... The chokidhars I put outside, right on the gate, because I didn't think they should live in our area, but they should be there, so the chokidhars have a tent. I thought behind the pandal I could erect some tents, or even behind our tin where people wouldn't see them so much, we could invite some guests, charge them something for living and preach to them. Prabhupāda: Hm. But they smoke. Gurudāsa: Yes, some will. Prabhupāda: That is bad. Gurudāsa: So, I mean it's up to... I'm asking what you think. Prabhupāda: They will drink; they will smoke; they will not take bath. These are the defects. These people are unclean. Gurudāsa: Yes. Suppose they are willing... Prabhupāda: It will spoil the cleanliness of the... Gurudāsa: Of course, they would not be in our camp. Prabhupāda: It may be. But their, that association is very undesirable. Gurudāsa: Yes, Yes. What if someone is willing to follow the regulations? *Prabhupāda: First they should be shaved, clean*-shaved. Will they accept that? They must take early in the water, take bath. Cleanliness. Gurudāsa: No, they won't do. So I won't have that. I just thought it was a preaching opportunity. Prabhupāda: Preaching, if there is not clean even, what they will understand? Gurudāsa: Well, when I came, I was not clean either. By your grace I cleaned up. Hari-śauri: They won't clean up. Gurudāsa: No, no. I accept what, you know. I want to do... Prabhupāda: People may not misunderstand that "This is hippie camp." Gurudāsa: Yes. The police were sending, and I went to the Mela officials... Prabhupāda: Therefore the police came. They thought that you are hippies. Gurudāsa: No, I don't think, because this was before they came. Prabhupāda: Anyway, their association is not good. Gurudāsa: Yes. So we won't have, definitely not. Hari-śauri: We have to make a good impression. Prabhupāda: Yes, that people may not think, "This is another edition of hippies." Gurudāsa: So we won't have at all. Now we have a general list of when everyone's big programs are. Prabhupāda: Many are coming? Hippies? Gurudāsa: There's a lot. There's a lot. Well, yes, there's a lot. Prabhupāda: So you consult amongst yourselves, but people may not have a bad impression. Gurudāsa: I think I will not do it because if you think there's any small chance of them associating with us... *Prabhupāda: Alpa*-chidre. A small... White, white cloth and a small black spot, it becomes prominent. Gurudāsa: So we won't do it. We can try and preach to them at other place. Because we're going out on saṅkīrtana many times. We're getting a list of all the other programs in the Mela, so we'll take our saṅkīrtana parties where it's going to be prominent and pass out literature. Now, for the meeting, for the resolution, I thought perhaps on the 16th or the 17th, because it is close to the big bathing day on the 14th and it won't conflict that much with other programs. Prabhupāda: Meeting means all other sādhus, they will meet? Gurudāsa: Yes. I'm getting invitations printed up, and then we can write their names in, and I want to make the invitation something personal, like "This is a meeting of utmost importance." Prabhupāda: So that, some Swami Chand? Hari-śauri: Chandra Swami, minister for Air India. He's supposed to be wanting to see Prabhupāda. He's coming to the Mela. Gurudāsa: I'll look into that. You told me last time. Hari-śauri: Is Indira Gandhi coming? Gurudāsa: There's an unofficial rumor that Indira Gandhi's going to come. Speaking of politicians, I did some research on Tarun Kanti for the letter, and he's very preoccupied now, and Gargamuni Swami told me that he doesn't want to have anything to do with foreign funds. Prabhupāda: Foreign funds. Gurudāsa: In other words, that letter would say, "I would oversee this." On the other hand, there's a man from CARE who went to our camp and was very impressed with the food program. I thought we could get a letter from him, because Germany knows CARE and they don't know Tarun Kanti Gosh from the dobi. Prabhupāda: No. Gurudāsa: So I thought CARE would be good, so Abhirama Prabhu is trying for that. Also I saw C. L. Bijaya yesterday when I was waiting to come here, and he was very happy to see me. And he said by your inspiration, "I want to give you that room downstairs." Prabhupāda: Which room? Gurudāsa: That room at the bottom. Prabhupāda: Oh, that will solve our great problem. Gurudāsa: Yes. They said... Abhirama says he's been trying for months for that room. So C. L. yesterday said that, "Yes, I want to give that. My brothers want that room, and my office wants the room, but I want you to have it." So the meeting was last night, and Abhirama is coming to the Kumbhamela. We'll know for sure when he comes. So that might be some good news. Prabhupāda: That is very good. There our men suffer very much. If that room is available, then it is very good. Gurudāsa: They made a... Abhirama made a bathroom. He put four tanks on the top, and there's running water in that bathroom. Prabhupāda: In our side? Gurudāsa: In the one we have. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gurudāsa: So that's somewhat of an improvement. Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Improvement can be done. There is space. Anyway, if we get the down room, it will solve a problem. What is the rent? Gurudāsa: One thousand. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gurudāsa: But C. L. said he would pay. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is very kind of him. Gurudāsa: We will see... Prabhupāda: Yes, we will be his guest. He will pay rent. That's all right. Very good. Gurudāsa: So anyway, he said it verbally. We'll see when Abhirama comes. I think he'll do it. Prabhupāda: He's gentleman. Gurudāsa: Yes, he is. He's offering all his prasāda, and he's following ekādaśī. And he told me yesterday... He showed me a picture of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa and yourself. And he said he sleeps on his back, and he puts it on his heart. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Acchā. Gurudāsa: So he has your picture in his room, etc. So he appreciates. Prabhupāda: That is nice. Gurudāsa: So... Let's see. What else. I've saved some money by cutting down fences and pandal already, and not hiring these cooks. Prabhupāda: Gargamuni said somebody has paid ten thousand. Hari-śauri: There was supposed to be some man who was going to give five thousand or ten thousand rupees. Gurudāsa: For food relief or...? Prabhupāda: I do not know. Hari-śauri: For something. Gurudāsa: There's one man who paid for a tent, life member. And Gargamuni Mahārāja gave me ten thousand rupees for food relief yesterday. Now... Prabhupāda: Oh. Then that... I was... He got ten thousand rupees. Gurudāsa: He gave it to me yesterday. I have it right here. Prabhupāda: What about Saurabha? Devotee (1): He called last night from Delhi. Prabhupāda: Oh. He's there in Delhi? Devotee (1): Yes. He just came back yesterday. He'll be coming here soon. Gurudāsa: Now, previously the budget... I figured it out with the ones who are cooking. You wanted puris and halavā and subji, something like that. But we didn't have enough before. So I was going to make puṣpanna. Is that all right? Or would you rather... Now, with the ten thousand rupees... Prabhupāda: Puṣpanna for visitors also? No, they will have objection to take anna. They'll take puri, śāk, halavā. Gurudāsa: What do you want? Prabhupāda: Purī, śāk, halavā is... It can be distributed to anyone. Puṣpanna, some may take, some may not take. Hari-śauri: There's some special reason? Gurudāsa: Well, it is due to our budget. Prabhupāda: No, budget not. The puri-śāk is pakkā, and puṣpanna is kacchā. They think like that. That kacchā, there is distinction of jata. One jata, one caste, will not take other caste anna. That is Indian thinking. But puri-śāk, everyone. Gurudāsa: But also everyone was serving... Prabhupāda: Puri-śāk will be cheaper, I think. Gurudāsa: Whatever you like. They said... Prabhupāda: I don't like, but if you distribute, must be acceptable to everyone. Gurudāsa: Everyone is serving, that is serving, capati and dahl. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Gurudāsa: But everyone is serving that already. That's another reason I thought that puṣpanna would be nice because it would be unique. Prabhupāda: No, I have no objection. That is all right. But puri-śāk is better. Is it costly? Gurudāsa: More costly, yes. And I told him to make a list for you to see, if you need it, why it's more costly. At any rate, he says... The cook has done research, our man, and says puri-śāk would be more costly. Prabhupāda: But don't allow him to purchase. Hari-śauri: Don't you have an Indian purchaser? Prabhupāda: Who is purchasing? Gurudāsa: No, he's not an Indian. He's one of our men. Prabhupāda: Oh. That is another thing. Gurudāsa: Our men are purchasing. Prabhupāda: Oh. Then it is all right. Gurudāsa: Two of them go together, and they've given me complete receipts. I said, "If you cannot get a receipt, give me a kacchā receipt. If you cannot get a pakkā, give me kacchā receipt written by someone else. So anyway, we'll try and do puri-śāk. Prabhupāda: Puri-śāk, always simple. And if you add with that, some puri and some this puṣpanna, that can be done. But generally they are taking śāk, roti-śāk, dahl. Gurudāsa: The devotees, yes. Prabhupāda: And rice also? No. Gurudāsa: Once a day. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Above all, manage. That's all right, nicely. The foodstuff must be palatable. That should not be rubbish thing. Gurudāsa: No. How are we going to feed others if we are not feeding the devotees nicely? Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, yesterday we made simple cooking. How it was nice. Gurudāsa: We're making soup at night, simple soup, and devotees like it 'cause it's not hurting their digestion. And I'm having some flat rice on hand for anyone who needs it. So, I'm trying to care for everything. Prabhupāda: There is milk supply? No. Gurudāsa: Yes. We have one man from Vṛndāvana who's bringing milk at 2.70 a kilo, a little costly, but Mela time, and they have to bring it from a far distance. Anyway, 2.70, kilo, cow's milk. Prabhupāda: Cow's milk... Hari-śauri: They say. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Cow's milk means buffalo with water. Gurudāsa: With a little bit of the newspaper inside also. Prabhupāda: Acchā. Gurudāsa: For to put, to make it look like cream, they put newspaper also. Hari-śauri: Make it thick. They grind paper. You have to strain it before you drink it. Gurudāsa: But I... We tasted it. We came to the conjoint opinion that it was passable. Prabhupāda: Less newspaper. (laughter) So why such milk should be taken, with newspaper? Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Muslim countries, the Muslims, they feed the cows fish, dried fish. And the Hindus will not take the local milk there. Prabhupāda: Where? Devotee (1): Because the Muslims are feeding the cows dried fish, and the milk is smelling like fish even. There's no grass for them to eat there in this Arabia, so they're feeding them dried fish, like in a soup. Hindus will not take the milk there even because of that. Gurudāsa: So do you think I should organize this meeting with Chandra Swami also, taking some part in organizing? Or just meet him to get him to see you. Not any special, but I mean to say that he knows the situation. He can... Prabhupāda: Or if he wants to see, he may come. He may find out. Gurudāsa: Yes. He should come to see you. I'm arranging for your car to come from Delhi. We've made two roads of steel, of steel pieces. That's what they're using in the Mela on the sand. And I've gotten permission from the head of the Mela to take some of that. So we're making two rastas, one especially for you, where shamiyana comes out, and it doesn't look like a road, but when you come in, just untie that, and your car goes in. And then another one behind. So that will be able to keep any vehicles that come. One bus came already. Haṁsadūta Mahārāja's one bus. Prabhupāda: He has come. Gurudāsa: No, he hasn't. But he sent some men. Hari-śauri: He is coming, though, I think. That's what we were told. Gurudāsa: He's expected. I saw Acyutānanda Mahārāja yesterday. He's coming. I don't know if Gargamuni is going to come or not. Prabhupāda: Why? Gurudāsa: He says his health isn't good. I don't know if he wants to come. I think he just likes to distribute books. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: What about Gurukṛpa? Gurudāsa: I think they'll all come. Hari-śauri: Gurukṛpa's in Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: Oh. So there is facility for exchanging dollars? Gurudāsa: Yes. I'm trying to cash this draft. I went to three banks, and as I say, I had some traveler's checks, and because there was no money there I cashed my own traveler's checks and left it with them, so they... You want dollars into rupees? Yes, that's possible. Prabhupāda: What is the rate? Gurudāsa: It was 8.78 the other day. It fluctuates from day to day, but 8.78. Prabhupāda: That is good rate, 8.70... Gurudāsa: Better than before. That was for traveler's checks. It may be slightly less for cash. Hari-śauri: Yes. Traveler's checks are always higher. Gurudāsa: So I'm going back today. As soon as Gopāla Kṛṣṇa gives me the lakṣmī, money, I'll go back. Bhāgavata's doing a very nice job. Prabhupāda: We have to go to Orissa, Bhuvaneśvara, afterwards. Gurudāsa: Yes, I heard you were planning to go. Gargamuni says it's good for the health. Prabhupāda: Acchā? Gurudāsa: Yes, he has about three or four places he was naming that are very good. He's going because his health, he says, isn't good. Prabhupāda: So let him go to Bhuvaneśvara. Orissa is good for health? Gurudāsa: Yes, he says. Prabhupāda: Then that's why. Let him come to Bhuvaneśvara, and I want to start a temple. Gurudāsa: Yes. Your health is...? Prabhupāda: From yesterday it is good. Gurudāsa: 'Cause you cooked for yourself. Prabhupāda: No. Because I could eat little. Gurudāsa: What did you cook? Prabhupāda: Just rice, dahl, and vegetable. That's all, nothing extraordinary. Gurudāsa: And you put lot of spice in it or not? Prabhupāda: No. Gurudāsa: So that's the secret. If someone cooks for themselves... Why don't you direct it but not cook? Prabhupāda: Yes, I'm directing and nobody learns. Gurudāsa: I can learn. Prabhupāda: Everyone can see. It is... Gurudāsa: There's no... Your health must be pakkā. So we have separate kitchen for you, separate kitchen for life members. Gargamuni Mahārāja is sending his Shantilal, his cook. Prabhupāda: Cooking is being done with wood? That's nice. That is very good. Gurudāsa: Yes, very nice. And in the morning, the first morning... When I went there, actually nothing was happening very much. So the first morning... It's so cold, the devotees were just staying in their blankets. So I got up at four o'clock and bathed and started a fire. And I said, "It's warmer here than in your tent. Come around the fire." Prabhupāda: Yes, and around the fire, it is very warm. Gurudāsa: And it was a trick. And they came around the fire, and then we had saṁsāra prayers, and then I said, "Now stay here and chant." So they chanted. Then I gave class. Pandal is simple. I have not spent elaborately on it. Prabhupāda: No, why? There is no need. Gurudāsa: And we're having display, book table, membership table, and cinema is showing at night. Prabhupāda: So how people come? Gurudāsa: Some people come, but I think once we start our saṅkīrtana and leaflets... The mela officials said, "We put you there because you will draw, and others will not. People will want to come to you, so they will make an effort to come to you." Prabhupāda: But there is easy way to come? Gurudāsa: It's not that difficult. It's just a little distant. Some people were coming. Cars can come also. If they want to come, they can come. It's not far, but it's not so close. I wanted to give you a proper picture. I didn't want... Prabhupāda: No, our former camp, last time...? So this is not so good? Gurudāsa: Location was better. But our living is better this time. Living is better, but location was better last time. Prabhupāda: That location cannot be had. What is the reason? Gurudāsa: Well, first of all, when I came they already settled it up. There's nothing I can do, you know. I said immediately, "This is not such a good location." And Bhāgavata said, "I did not know. I saw it on the map. I had no experience." So I didn't blame him because he didn't know. So they said that "You will draw people, and so we thought we would put others..." I think it is political. Hari-śauri: "You draw more people, so you can go out of the way." Prabhupāda: Political? Gurudāsa: Yes. I think that many people were pushing for good positions, and we did not push, and... Last year was good, but, of course, the saṅgam has shifted a little. The saṅgam has shifted to the island where we are. The governor's camp is on the island. And there's some people. Maharishi is on the island. It's just I didn't want to say it's a wonderful location and then you come there and see that it's a little bit far off. I wanted to tell you... Prabhupāda: Only it is far off. Gurudāsa: And there's another slight defect, which is that it's underneath a railway bridge. Prabhupāda: Railway bridge? Gurudāsa: But with all the things that are going on, you can't even hear the trains. Now everyone's starting with... And we have the biggest microphones in the whole Mela. Everyone's got microphones this big. And speakers? Speakers? Ours is this big. We've got the biggest ones, six of them, to point in all directions. So that... We thought we would make up for the distance. I thought I would make up by big speakers. We told Kamalapati Tripati that, "Yes, we are living underneath one of your railway bridges," and he laughed. Prabhupāda: Ah, he's railway member. So railway bridge there is sound. Gurudāsa: Yes, but... When trains come by there is sound. Yes, there is sound. Hari-śauri: There is electricity? Gurudāsa: There will be, yes. Hari-śauri: Big power points. Gurudāsa: Yes. There will be two in Prabhupāda's and two on the pandal. Prabhupāda: Hm. Gurudāsa: Electricity, he wanted to know. The thing is there's also sound with bicycles going. Bicycles also go across that bridge. So there's some sound. Not during the high afternoon, because people don't go out. And not during very early morning, but during the day there is. What do you think? Prabhupāda: How can I think unless I see? [break] Hari-śauri: If it's not suitable at the camp, Prabhupāda can go to the house at night and the camp in the day. Gurudāsa: Yes. Even during the day he doesn't have to go except for darśana. Prabhupāda: All right. Whatever you say. Gurudāsa: Your area is completely enclosed, though, from the rest. [break] Prabhupāda: Where is this? One and a half hour? Gurudāsa: One and a half hours. It is on the edge of Jushi, past, way past the first pontoon bridge. Prabhupāda: Pontoon bridge. Gurudāsa: But they put up some more pontoon bridges also this year. Very far off. Actually, there's not very much near there. He wanted to be far off because they don't do any preaching. And we wanted to be right in the middle. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is their purpose? Gurudāsa: Their purpose is feeding a small group of sādhus that are in that area who want to be far off. Ekadaṇḍi. And they feed... The prasādam is good, that they give. He was correct. They are giving capatis and dhal to everyone. Prabhupāda: Eating must be very nice, clean. Gurudāsa: Yes. And respectable. We'll do it. [break] Prabhupāda: I thought we could save the expenditure. But that is not possible. Gurudāsa: No, we wouldn't actually save so much because the time it would take for the devotees to go there to eat prasādam is three hours, and then the tents are not so good. It would mean a savings of six hundred or eight hundred rupees on tents, and it's completely impractical. Prabhupāda: And besides that, the Māyāvādīs... Eh? Inconvenience. Gurudāsa: Yes. And they would not appreciate our preaching all the time. Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī bhāṣya śunile haya sarva nāśa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. Sarva nāśa. Gurudāsa: If they have a similar verse to that, then they would be very unhappy. Prabhupāda: What is that? Gurudāsa: I'm saying if they had, "Do not hear personalists' bhāṣya," they would become very unhappy. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...that within the Kṛṣṇa's mouth there are millions of brahmāṇḍas, they think it is simply fictitious. Doctor, saheb, you are feeling all right? Dr. Patel: No, I just ran. I ran a little, so I... Prabhupāda: Oh, so why don't you sit down? Gurudāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like to have an elephant to ride on one day? Prabhupāda: Why? (laughter) Gurudāsa: I heard, one of these "Prabhupāda saids" from one of the devotees that you said that "If they can ride an elephant, can you get one for me?" Some devotees said that you saw another sādhu riding on the elephant, and you asked him, "Can you arrange like that for me?" Prabhupāda: (laughing) That was joking. Gurudāsa: Yes. 'Cause last time, in 1972, you and I were walking, and you saw the sādhus on the elephant, and you said, "I would put Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa there." I remember it very well. You said, "I would not sit there." Prabhupāda: What is the use? (laughter) It goes like this. (laughter) Dr. Patel: Other sādhus I don't think. Gurudāsa: No, others are. Processions. It is a procession thing. The nagas take them into the river. Prabhupāda: When there was no car, elephant had some importance. And now they have got so many cars. [break] Dr. Patel: Camels were used as they are now, for ... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gurudāsa: They still do. Dr. Patel: They're better than the horses, don't get tired earlier. From Vṛndāvana to Delhi the camels were running. They used (Hindi). I don't know what they call it in Bengali. Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja purchased two camels. I did not... I do not know what happened, but he purchased. Gurudāsa: I think Tīrtha Mahārāja was fighting with someone else over them. Prabhupāda: No, it is long ago. Dr. Patel: We have a story in *Mahābhārata* that all Ataravart, he can do. The Hastināpura in just when Abhimanyu was going for fight. In those days they were using camels. Gurudāsa: In Rajastan they use widely. Dr. Patel: Rajastan is a desert. Prabhupāda: No, Vṛndāvana quarter there are many camels. Dr. Patel: Everywhere there is camel. Gurudāsa: They're using camels at the Mela. For carrying things they're using camels now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Camels have long legs, you know. They go faster than... Don't get tired as the horses do. Gurudāsa: In the West they are called "ships of the desert." Hari-śauri: They have wild camels in Australia even. They used to use them in the desert. Prabhupāda: Wherever there is desert, there is thorn twig and camels. Dr. Patel: Both. I think Australian desert is bigger than Indian desert, much bigger, as big as Sahara perhaps. Gurudāsa: Desert means deserted. Devotee (1): I went to Makrana, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and I saw they had them hitched for plowing. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Patel: Camels are used for plowing even in Gujarat. Trivikrama: And they eat the thorny twigs. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their food. Karmis, they are compared with the camels. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ samstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. Dr. Patel: I don't think, sir, there will be camels in Bengal because in Bengal is so many rivers. Prabhupāda: No. No, there is no camel. And unless there is that thorny twig, they cannot live. That is their food. Dr. Patel: In Gujarat you find these camels right at the Surat, south of the Gujarat. In north Gujarat they are very common. On the desert. [break] Prabhupāda: ...Darjeeling we were hiring these ho.... [break] Gurudāsa: (whispers) Tape always runs out on places like that. (Hari-śauri laughs) Prabhupāda: Mules, I have seen, if they stop, you can beat like anything; still, it will not move. Gurudāsa: Yes. "Stubborn as a mule" is a proverb in the West. *Prabhupāda: I have seen. The soldiers are beating with the butts of the gun*-still (laughter) not going. So many varieties of life we had to pass through, and with great fortune we get this human form of body. And that also we waste in the same business-punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], misguided. Labdhvā sudurlabham idam bahu-sambhavānte [SB 11.9.29]. After many, many births this human form-people do not understand. Sudurlabham. Durlabham means rare, and sudurlabham means still... Dr. Patel: More rare. Prabhupāda: But the rascals, they do not take it very seriously. They think... *Dr. Patel: Such mules,(?) like me. Aneka*-janma saṁsiddha sayati paramaṁ gatim. Prabhupāda: Sudurlabham. Sudurlabha: it is not very easily obtainable. Labdhvā manuṣyam. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān... [SB 7.6.1], durlabhaṁ manuṣya... Prahlāda Mahārāja says. Somewhere sudurlabham, somewhere durlabham. Durlabhaṁ manuṣyam. There is no education about the importance of manuṣya janma. They have taken it that we shall die once. Who says that once born, once we get the..., this and then finished? "Once life got." Some...? Hari-śauri: Sometimes there's an advertisement in the papers, "You only live once, so buy this." They were selling... It was a land advertisement. Prabhupāda: These rascals, they invent their theories. Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara prāptir, and these rascals says "Once." Just see. *Dr. Patel: The rascals have also realized now that there is a dehāntara*-prāptir because the parapsychology has proved beyond doubt so many examples recently, at present, that there is a rebirth. People who are reborn and know their past births. They have recognized their parents, their places and secret things also. There was a patient in Rajastan. One was in Northwest India. There was one in South America. They were all published in medical bulletins. Gurudāsa: People accept them? Dr. Patel: Gradually. Prabhupāda: Medical science do not accept the soul. Then how it is possible, next birth? Dr. Patel: They have to accept. In the teaching of physiology, what we call certain vital forces which we don't understand, they are, this is nothing but God there. What is vital force? What is vital force? It's the soul, sir. Prabhupāda: Vague idea. Not clear. Dr. Patel: They will become clear later on. Slowly, slowly, the cloud is clearing away from them. Prabhupāda: No, when... There is clear idea already. Nothing is going to happen, but because they are less intelligent, therefore next stage is when their intelligence will happen. Things are already there. Dr. Patel: The greatest scientist of the world, Einstein, was a great believer in God, and he was a moral just like a ṛṣi. Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen his picture. Dr. Patel: His behavior was that of a sādhu. Gurudāsa: Simple. He lived simply. Dr. Patel: Not only simply, but he never worried much about things. When he was asked in Christian university how much money he would want paid when first migrated to America, he said, "What is the standard of living here?" (indistinct) *Trivikrama: But still, the tendency... Kali*-yuga means their tendency is away from... *Dr. Patel: It is Kali*-yuga for all of us, for the good and the bad. *Prabhupāda: Kali*-yuga means mandāḥ. Mandāḥ-two meaning. One is "slow"; *another meaning is "bad." So mandāḥ sumanda*-matayo manda-bhāgyā [SB 1.1.10]. Four times this word used: mandāḥ, sumanda-matayo, manda-bhāgyā. *Dr. Patel: But one thing about Kali*-yuga is that by doing small amount of good work or doing little bhakti, it has a greater amount of benefit than you would get otherwise in Satya-yuga, Dvāpara or Treta. Is it not, sir? No... Prabhupāda: Good work or bad work, you have to enjoy, good or bad. *Dr. Patel: But in Kali*-yuga a little bhakti will do much good than a good amount of tapaḥ in Satya-yuga, thousands or millions of years. Prabhupāda: Bhakti is different. Bhakti is transcendental. It has nothing to do with this material world. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato. That is bhakti. And karma, if you do good, you'll get good result, and if you do bad, you'll get bad result. Dr. Patel: But if you are attached to the karma... When a person is attached... Prabhupāda: No, attached or not attached, if you touch fire it will burn. That's all. This is karma. If you... Just like child touches fire. It doesn't matter whether he is child or not; *fire's business is to burn. Karmaṇā. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. So karma, śubhā-śubha saba bhaktir baddha. Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Śubha karma or a śubha karma, they are all hindrances to spiritual progress. In material world, good and bad, both are the same. Dvaite bhadrābhadra sakali samāna. Bhadra and abhadra. Bhadra means good; *abhadra means bad. Sakali samāna ei bhala, ei manda-saba 'manodharma.. "This is good, this is bad"*-they are simply mental concoction. So Mr. Kapoor has sent one letter to take the key. Gurudāsa: From where? Hari-śauri: Kumbhamela. Prabhupāda: From that house. Gurudāsa: Jagadīśa Prabhu can show me. Prabhupāda: Jagadīśa has got that letter. So people are enthusiastic there about this Mela? People are coming now? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: How many men are found there? Gurudāsa: When I was leaving there was about eighty thousand. Prabhupāda: Acchā? Gurudāsa: But they expect ten million. That's the estimate. Many camps, many pandals. Prabhupāda: And store, supplies, everything is... Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Road is nice. Gurudāsa: It's being improved. In some spots it's nice. But because it's on sand they have to always keep it wet and they put metal plates down. They're trying to do it very well. Prabhupāda: There is a Māghmela committee. One magistrate is the head. A regular committee for managing this Mela. Gurudāsa: We have contact with this committee. Prabhupāda: And where is governor's camp from our? Gurudāsa: I don't know exactly, but it's in the same island. I'll find out. *Prabhupāda: No, there is... Our governor is Kṛṣṇa. Sarva*-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. Dr. Patel: All the Britishers were organizing this Mela, Kumbha. Prabhupāda: No, in... They were taking... The committee... I said that, "We have committee?" This is British time. One magistrate is the head and assistants, so many. Dr. Patel: The government officers may not be getting any interest, only the Hindu officials, these British officers. Prabhupāda: No. Our government, they have to manage so many people. The Nagas... I learned it from *Bhāgavatam*. Dr. Patel: Nagas come from Assam, no? Prabhupāda: Yes. Arjuna married the Naga king's daughter. And he had a son. Dr. Patel: Babhruvāhana. Prabhupāda: No, Babhruvāhana is Manipur. Dr. Patel: Ilavan. Prabhupāda: Ilavan, yes. Dr. Patel: Ilavan was the son of Nagas. Prabhupāda: Nagakanya. Dr. Patel: Ilavan, Abhimanyu and Babhruvāhana. These were the outstanding sons of Arjuna. Gurudāsa: He was a great fighter? Prabhupāda: Yes, they were kṣatriyas. Dr. Patel: He did in the war. *Prabhupāda: Babhruvāhana was adopted by his grandfather. That is called putrikā, putrikā*-putra, "daughter's son adopted as son." So our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara belongs to this family, Babhruvāhana family. His title is Singh. That means kṣatriya. And they are Vaiṣṇavas for the last five thousand years or more than that. Dr. Patel: Now all the Nagas have turned into Christians. Only fifty years back they were headhunters. Fifty years back Nagas of Assam were more or less like cannibals. Prabhupāda: No, the headhunters means they were killing? Dr. Patel: Yes. They would take revenge by cutting the head of the enemy. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is... Why they are blamed? Everyone is doing that. (laughter) Dr. Patel: Africans also do that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Their uniqueness is that they display the head on a spear. Prabhupāda: Oh. Any head. Dr. Patel: And they dance, even as they do in Africa. Nagas are very much civilized now. Prabhupāda: Civilized? Dr. Patel: In this way... Prabhupāda: No, they were civilized. Otherwise... Dr. Patel: Western civilization, I mean to say. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, how Arjuna could marry? *Dr. Patel: Fourth*-class civilization. In Naga races there is polyandry, sir. One woman can... Prabhupāda: Still there are, in Himalayan hills. One woman has got five husbands. Dr. Patel: Because they have got shortage of men. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the system is there. I think in America also. Dr. Patel: No, no. America, secret polyandry. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, one woman may have more than one husband. Is it not? Gurudāsa: Sometimes. Not legally. Dr. Patel: That is why I said "secret" polyandry. This is official. Some of the Himalayan and Katwa, they... One brother marries and then she becomes the wife of two, three brothers. That is legal. Prabhupāda: No... In here also the system was if one is childless, husband is dead or could not produce, she can take help of the husband's brothers. Devareṇa sutotpati: with the help of husband's brother to get child. *Trivikrama: But in Kali*-yuga that's been... Prabhupāda: That is forbidden. Kalau pañca vivarjayet [Cc. Ādi 17.164]. Dr. Patel: And these children were raised (indistinct). Very scientific way. *Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Māyāpura we see so many pilgrims coming from Assam, Nagaland and Manipur. They're having this Vaiṣṇava tilaka, Gauḍīya*-Vaiṣṇava tilaka, and they also worship Caitanya Mahāprabhu. How is that influence also there? Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu went there. Devotee (1): He went to Manipur then. Gurudāsa: Wasn't it one of the times he was going to Vṛndāvana but didn't go, then He went to Manipur? Is that correct? Prabhupāda: I do not know. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to go and preach in eastern Bengal. And His original paternal house is in Sylhet. Dr. Patel: It is in Assam. Prabhupāda: Yes. His forefathers from Sylhet. Jagannātha Miśra, His father came from Sylhet to Navadvipa for studying. Then Nilambara Cakravartī got him married with his daughter, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mother. And he resided in Nabadwip. Gurudāsa: There's one temple in Vṛndāvana where they have Deities of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityānanda that look like Manipur. They made His eyes like that. Prabhupāda: That is not so good. If you make any picture, then you paint according to the people's, local people's feature. Kata catur anana, mani mani yāvat. Vidyāpati. You have heard the name of Vidyāpati? He was a great poet of Darbhanga. Dr. Patel: Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: No, no. Darbhanga, the entrance to Bengal from Bihar. Dr. Patel: Darbhanga. Door to Bengal. Prabhupāda: Hardwar. "Door to Hari." Dwar means gate. Gurudāsa: Someone invited me last year to Hardwar for the Kumbha, and I said, "Why should I go to the door when I live in the house?" I was in Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: We are not interested with the door. You are doormen, dvar*-men. We are inmates. That Vidyāpati has sung, kata catur anana, mari mari yāvata. Catur anana means Brahma. They also die. And kata means "how many." (pause) So what is the amount of the bank that he transferred? *Devotee (1): Twenty*-five thousand rupees. *Prabhupāda: But I heard, it was thirty*-five? *Devotee (1): There was originally three fixed deposits. One of them was broken six months ago. We used it, BBT. So there was two remaining left for twenty*-five. Originally there was thirty-six, and then one was broken. That's already been accounted for. Prabhupāda: And our Madras center is now closed? Devotee (1): Yes. There's no center there now. Mahamsa Swami, he's sending two men there regularly to help set... Prabhupāda: Collect. Devotee (1): ... members..., collect. Prabhupāda: Kata catur anana, mari mari yāvata, nā tuyā ari avasana. You have seen Russian publication? *Easy Journey to Other Planets*. They have printed. Gurudāsa: They're going to distribute it on that train that goes into Russia. By the way, Śrīgarbha came to me and said, "I'm sorry for all your difficulty. I wanted to preach in Poland again." That boy? So he's going to deposit his wife and go to Poland. Prabhupāda: Deposit where? Gurudāsa: He wants to do it in Florida. Prabhupāda: Yes, Florida is nice place. Gurudāsa: Because he feels she's protected there. I said, "You'll feel that she is protected there, and then you'll have a free mind to preach?" And he said, "Yes, rather than in Europe." So I said, "All right." In your letter you wrote, "Let it go for now." Again you saw the future. "Let it go for now." Then he came. Prabhupāda: So we shall go down? No. Hari-śauri: No, but we can. We have ten minutes still. *Dr. Patel: You're too early, sir. Ten minutes more. Fifty*-six, six fifty-six. You go after seven, five. Prabhupāda: There is walking facility? Gurudāsa: Oh, yes. Dr. Patel: Water must be extremely cold. Gurudāsa: No. No. In the morning the air is cold, but the water is warm, warmer than the air, very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. The earlier you take bath, it is warm. Dr. Patel: Once you dip inside. Otherwise it is chilly. Prabhupāda: No, no. Gurudāsa: It's very nice. The tap water also. Either in the river or in the tap, it's warmer. You must come and try it. Dr. Patel: You bring me water from... (Prabhupāda chuckles) I don't mind coming. Whereas returning it will be difficult for me. You people will be returning after ten, fifteen days. I must come after two, three (indistinct)... Traffic will be so heavy that I may not get even... Gurudāsa: No, you can come and go as you like and you can be our guest. Because people are coming but not going, it was easy to go out. Everyone was coming, but no one was going. You can go out easy. We have a nice tent for you, warm water in the morning. Dr. Patel: Is there sufficient number of trains to the Mela? Gurudāsa: We're putting extra trains. Prabhupāda: From the Mela the train starting? Gurudāsa: Yes. Some going. Prabhupāda: There is some temporary station. Gurudāsa: Yes. And they're even making a temporary airport from the 14th on. Prabhupāda: Where? Gurudāsa: In Allahabad. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Patel: Allahabad has got an airport already. Gurudāsa: Yes, but it doesn't function regularly. But now they're going to have planes going and coming. Prabhupāda: Formerly there was airport. The place is called Babroli. Dr. Patel: You must have seen all these places. You lived there for twenty years. Gurudāsa: Thirteen or twenty years? Prabhupāda: Thirteen years. Dr. Patel: That is sufficient long time to know a place. At that time what was the population of Allahabad? About ten lakhs? Prabhupāda: No, not so. Dr. Patel: No, less than that. Ahmedabad was only four lakhs' population before. Now it is twenty lakhs. Prabhupāda: Everywhere the population is increased. Why? Dr. Patel: People have more interest because of the industrialization. Gurudāsa: They attract people. They think they will be happy in the city. Dr. Patel: Not that. Because they get more easy jobs in the city. You see, jobs. Gurudāsa: How can they get jobs easy, when so many people are lying on the... Dr. Patel: It is at least they can have some food. In the small villages they're not having. Gurudāsa: In small villages food grows out of the ground. Dr. Patel: They don't want to grow. They want to just give up, go to here. Gurudāsa: That is an anomaly. Dr. Patel: I tell you, this vicious propaganda of the government... I have got a small hill, fifteen bigas, on a highway, Bombay highway, with canal waters irrigating my land and a well with pump and everything. Last year we spent nine thousand rupees on fertilizer and all things and other paraphernalia, and pay for the servants. And they got paddy worth six thousand rupees. Prabhupāda: Three thousand lost. *Dr. Patel: Because the prices was so down, you see, and fertilizer they are selling at a very high rate. Before it was available, a bag, for fifty rupees or fifty*-one. Now it is more than eleven-ten. They don't want that a man in the city should be employed for less than five rupees a day. It's very expensive. And they don't work also. They used to work very hard in ancient times. Now they come at ten o'clock, go at five. Before they used to come early morning at six, seven o'clock and work up til five in the evening, and you used to feed them afternoon. Gurudāsa: Use gobar instead of... Dr. Patel: No, gobar is not that much available. Gurudāsa: Gobar means cows. Get a cow. Dr. Patel: We use gobar. All of us keep cows. But there is not sufficient for that. Gurudāsa: You can eat six thousand rupees' worth of rice yourself? Dr. Patel: No, you can't. You have in the market. No, I cannot eat even this much because I can't bring it here to Bombay. There is a barrier. You can't export from one place to another. This is the government. And our rice is just like the (indistinct) quality. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: You go and eat there. (laughter) Dr. Patel: But I don't go there to eat it. These government regulations are very bad. I don't think they would be able to... Gurudāsa: It's your own right to... Dr. Patel: He thought that India is spoiled by American policy, Mr. Dulles's. And he spoiled the pitch, this Mr. Nehru, Nehru, being a flamboyant, highly arrogant man... And then they supported Pakistan, and Americans lost lot of money on these small wars. Instead of that, much money was given away to a poor country. it was Dulles who got United States to this present condition. We should have insulated this country after svaraj, not selling anything, not taking anything. Produce yourself or starve and die. People don't work when they get food like that. *Prabhupāda: I am simply surprised when I compare British days and nowadays. My practical experience*-one of my maternal uncles, he's a very big, rich man. He was; he is not existing. So he was doing business, rice exporting. So in Calcutta, Chetra side, he had big, big godown full of rice. Not only he, other merchants also. But now they are empty. Similarly, from Bombay the oil seeds are being exported. Dr. Patel: Yes. Last year they exported so much of this groundnut. Groundnut oil is costlier than ghee. (talks on for few minutes) Prabhupāda: So we can go? (end) *Discussion on Deprogrammers-*-January 9, 1977, Bombay Prabhupāda: Jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam. (Hindi) Jñāna and vairāgya. (Hindi) Guest (Indian man): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Hari-śauri: As soon as you become covered with some personal desire or endeavor for personal satisfaction... Prabhupāda: Nothing is his personal. Hari-śauri: ...then you become designated. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is conditioned. The Vṛndāvana life means the gopīs, the cowherd boys, the cowherdsmen, the elderly men, Nanda Mahārāja, Yaśodārāṇī, his (her) status, every*-cows, calves, trees, flowers, Yamunā-everyone is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa. That is the Vṛndāvana. They have no other business. That is Vṛndāvana. Everywhere, the whole description of the Kṛṣṇa book, center is Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: Yeah, Kṛṣṇa book's so nice. *Prabhupāda: That is Vṛndāvana life, either in rasa dance or the cowherd's play or killing the demons or in dining and dancing. The friends are eating, they are being stolen by Brahmā-but the center is Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. All activities are going on, just like in other place. But here in Vṛndāvana, all activities centered around Kṛṣṇa. When Brahmā is stealing His friends, the center is Kṛṣṇa. The demon is coming to destroy*-the center is Kṛṣṇa. When there is forest fire, the center is Kṛṣṇa. This is Vṛndāvana beauty. In happiness, in danger, in perplexities, in friendship-everything Kṛṣṇa. Kāliya-damana. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has gone to Yamunā. He has fallen down in the..., to fight the Kāliya." It is a very, what is called, calamity. But still, the center is Kṛṣṇa. This is the beauty of Vṛndāvana. "Kṛṣṇa has entered Yamunā to fight with Kāliya." It is not at all good news for mother Yaśodā, Nanda, friends and family, not at all. Their life is lost. But still the Kṛṣṇa is center. This is Vṛndāvana life. In everything Kṛṣṇa is center, anything. We are having just like: "Kṛṣṇa's a bad propaganda," opposition. Hari-śauri: Somehow or other, Kṛṣṇa's in the center. (laughs) Prabhupāda: I am happy that Kṛṣṇa is center. That's all. This is the beauty of this movement. Although we are put into some difficulty, but center is Kṛṣṇa. Hari-śauri: The difficulty actually is increasing our thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. The papers are publishing, "Kṛṣṇas, they are bad. They are so on, so on, so on." That's all right. Kṛṣṇa is center. *Hari-śauri: Yes, what you said this afternoon... Actually, I found out, one of the arguments that they're using... These deprogrammers, they're very clever. They've done a lot of research, because they're using that statement of Dr. Radhakrishnan's in the Bhagavad*-gītā, where he says that man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, "Kṛṣṇa does not mean think of Him," they're using that against us to say that "This man Radhakrishnan was the president of India, and he says that the Bhagavad-gītā is not meant for thinking of Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Just see how much great harm he has done. *Hari-śauri: Yes. So now they're trying to use that to say that we are misinterpreting the Bhagavad*-gītā.. Prabhupāda: But we don't say Radhakrishnan is authority. We take Caitanya Mahāprabhu as authority. *Hari-śauri: Now we have to prove now that Radhakrishnan was not an authority on the Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is not in the paramparā system. You talk with Rāmeśvara like this. *Hari-śauri: Actually, by using the Bhagavad*-gītā, we can defeat their argument very easily anyway. Prabhupāda: Yes. That I've defended in every page, that "These rascals have used this." Where is Rāmeśvara? Jagadīśa: Coming. Śrīla Prabhupāda, we've been talking about... [break] Haṁsadūta: I shave once a month. Hari-śauri: Once a month on pūrṇimā. *Rāmeśvara: And our Ādi*-keśava, he has also grown out his hair for the court case and all the people. He's meeting the politicians. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. But we are famous as shaven*-headed. That is already advertised. Shaven-headed means Kṛṣṇas. So why should we relinquish this... Haṁsadūta: Trademark. Rāmeśvara: It has made us famous. That's a fact. Trivikrama: Yes, it means a monk. In the Far East at least, shaven head means monk. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Shaven*-headed. These Buddhist monks, they are shaven-headed. Hari-śauri: Even in the West they shave their heads. And they look something like that. Prabhupāda: Well, there was some income tax office pleader. So I have given the idea that "The fifty percent, that is promotion expenditure." So he accept..., "Yes, it can be done." Where is the profit? Whatever is profit is promotion expenditure. We give to ISKCON commission, or some way or other, it is spent. So he admitted, "Yes, it can be done." And last night I was suggesting, "For promotion spend." Even if we open a temple, that is promotion. Jagadīśa: Profit means that people are putting money in their pocket and enjoying. And we don't. Prabhupāda: But we're not. No. If we open a center, that is propaganda center. Why do you say "temple"? But this is the way of propaganda. Jagadīśa: Opening a new branch. Prabhupāda: Do you follow? Rāmeśvara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So it is promotion for the books. Whatever we do, it is promotion. That's all. And the main point is that it is not profitable, er profit concern, because you are not giving any royalty to the author. So where is his profit-making? Nobody's making profit*-the author, the worker, everyone. Trivikrama: That's a fact. *Prabhupāda: That's a fact. So all expenditure*-promotion, that's all. The cost of paper, cost of printing, cost of promotion-finished everything. Make account like that. The income tax father will not touch it. Hari-śauri: Everything we're doing is propaganda work, everything. Prabhupāda: That's all. If still there is excess, give some bonus to the gṛhasthas bhaktas. They're family men. Let them have some expenditure. Jagadīśa: Some wage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Finished all... No account. So they admitted, both of them, "Yes, sir, that is... That can be done." Trivikrama: You're a genius. Prabhupāda: (laughs) And our Gopāla, he is going three times and to-"How to do it?" Do it like that. Everything spend for promotion. Bas. No money. And actually, that is the fact. Where is the profit, and who is going to take the profit? Nobody is there. Hari-śauri: We're not opening our temples for a comfortable place to live. Prabhupāda: Yes. Trivikrama: Sleep on the floor. Jagadīśa: There's no sense gratification. *Prabhupāda: That I was explaining, that what is Vṛndāvana life. In Vṛndāvana life there is everything*-the cowherds boy, the calves, the cows, the elderly person like Nanda Mahārāja, Yaśodāmayī, friend. What is their aim? The aim is Kṛṣṇa. The demons... (laughter) Everything is Kṛṣṇa. The demon is coming there. That is also... Center is Kṛṣṇa. And gopīs are dancing. That is also... Center is Kṛṣṇa. And Brahmā is stealing the friends and cows. That is also center Kṛṣṇa. Trivikrama: Now we are also getting the demons. Prabhupāda: That is Vṛndāvana life. When everything is Kṛṣṇa, that is Vṛndāvana life. Why Vṛndāvana life is so exalted? Because they have no other shelter except Kṛṣṇa. The whole book Kṛṣṇa is therefore center Kṛṣṇa. That's all. But there are many varieties of activities. Hari-śauri: There's ninety chapters there. That's a drop in the ocean. *Prabhupāda: Every page, the center is Kṛṣṇa. Not only the Kṛṣṇa book. All our books-Caitanya-caritāmṛta-the center is Kṛṣṇa. Bhāgavata, the center is Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavad-gītā center is Kṛṣṇa. Nectar of Devotion, the center is Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Similarly, our, this book, the center is Kṛṣṇa. When we open a temple, the center is Kṛṣṇa. In this way manage, promotion. All spend for promotion. Then the income tax will not be able to touch your hair, what to speak of your body. (laughter) So now our counterpropaganda is going on. The center is Kṛṣṇa. Big, big Kṛṣṇa's name are coming: "These Kṛṣṇa people," "These Kṛṣṇa devotees," "This Kṛṣṇa center"*-that is our triumph. What is that? Trivikrama: There is a letter. Prabhupāda: Letter from? Rāmeśvara: I was mentioning it this morning. We intercept their newsletters. Prabhupāda: Oh. Rāmeśvara: They are simply talking about Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is our triumph. *Rāmeśvara: They're in a Kaṁsa*-sampradāya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Following the example of Kaṁsa, unfavorable meditation on Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. But that will also do benefit. Trivikrama: Their center is Kṛṣṇa also, only they're demons. Rāmeśvara: These are receipts, Śrīla Prabhupāda, each one for two thousand dollars deposited in your account in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: That is rent tax. Rāmeśvara: Yes. We already entered that. Both times from Balavanta in... Prabhupāda: You enter. Enter this. Hari-śauri: Two from Balavanta, two from Rūpānuga. Prabhupāda: Debit. Hari-śauri: Yes. Rāmeśvara: This is from an organization called "Committee Engaged in Freeing Minds." Freeing the mind. That is their name. And this is sent out all over the United States. It says, "Confidential. Not for publication." Prabhupāda: (laughs) And it is out to the enemies. Rāmeśvara: In capital letters it says, "HELP PUSH THE HARE KRSNA COURT ACTION. There are two legal cases in progress..." Prabhupāda: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya Kṛṣṇa. *Rāmeśvara: "There are two legal cases in progress at this time that we must support*-one in New York and one in Los Angeles. In New York the two ISKCON leaders have been indicted by the Queens County Grand Jury for unlawful imprisonment and attempted grand larceny. In Los Angeles, ISKCON and Madonna Slavin have accused her family of kidnapping, and charges of unlawful imprisonment have been entered against the mother and several other members of the Slavin family and two friends." These two friends are the professional deprogrammers. Then it says, "As in nearly all of these cases, the media will greatly influence the outcome. Do not underestimate the power of the media. We therefore must tell our story..." Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's already become media. Rāmeśvara: "We must therefore tell our story to them in great number, and in this way the world will hear of it. As of this date, HK," short for Hare Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: They're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) They're chanting Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Rāmeśvara: They say, "As of this date, Hare Kṛṣṇa has been able to flood both the media and the District Attorney's offices with support for their side..." Prabhupāda: They're admitting. That's good. *Rāmeśvara: "...and they are way ahead of those on our side who believe that it is not a religious issue. Sun Yung Moon"*-this is that Reverend Moon-"has been largely exposed in the Press. But not the Kṛṣṇas." Trivikrama: Haribol. Prabhupāda: So the more they expose, the more implicated. (laughter) *Rāmeśvara: "Most people think of them, if at all, as loving, peaceful, prayerful children with strange customs and dress but low*-key action and behavior." Prabhupāda: What is that behavior, low...? Lowky? Trivikrama: Low key. Rāmeśvara: Means not violent. Hari-śauri: Nice people. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Rāmeśvara: "But they do not know about their forceful, harassing solicitation..." Prabhupāda: They know. Rāmeśvara: "...begging tactics." Prabhupāda: We do not know. Rāmeśvara: They say that most people do not know how aggressive we really are. "Most of the families with young people involved with Hare Kṛṣṇa..." [break] Prabhupāda: ...very important letter. Rāmeśvara: We sent this to all the temples in America. Prabhupāda: Yes. And give me one copy. I shall keep. Rāmeśvara: This is for you. Prabhupāda: All right. Rāmeśvara: This is all based on the information received by various parent groups. "These people usually fear physical harm that may come to them and to their children who are in Hare Kṛṣṇa, as well as forcibly permanent separation from their children in Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: They do not know what is meaning, liberation. This is liberation, forcely separating from māyā. That they do not know. māyām etaṁ taranti te. Yes. Rāmeśvara: "Hare Kṛṣṇa is known to hide out those whose families want them out." Prabhupāda: Family? Rāmeśvara: If the family wants them out, we have a reputation that we will hide them, so the family cannot get them. "One example is in the Queens case." That's Ādi Keśava Mahārāja. The charge of attempted grand larceny stems from an alleged extortion attempt against the Shapiro family by the temple leaders who wanted money from the parents and threatened to harm their son..." Prabhupāda: This is false. Rāmeśvara: "...unless the money was given." Prabhupāda: This is false. Rāmeśvara: This is false, completely false. "One of the things we can do is give moral support to these families. How better to do it than to show your support by writing to the..." Prabhupāda: This we can bring a charge against them: "Prove that we wanted money." *Rāmeśvara: Yes, we are counter... We are fighting them. "...by writing to the District Attorney's"*-those are the Justice Department Offices-"or contacting your local media." Then they give the addresses of people in New York and two addresses in Los Angeles who you should write to telling them about all the knowledge you have about all the abuses of Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then it says, "You should commence action for a legal deprogramming. If other families of Hare Kṛṣṇa victims would go to court to get a legal conservatorship or guardianship with an intended writ of habeas corpus..." Now, what this means is you go to the court, and you say "My dear judge, my son is in Hare Kṛṣṇa. He has been brainwashed." And you have a paper from a psychiatrist that says, "Yes, he is definitely acting in a robotlike way." Then the court will say, "All right, you're the parent. So we give you legal guardianship over the son." Prabhupāda: No, we can place a counter psychiatrist and counter... Just like Cox's statement. Rāmeśvara: There is one law in America where they don't even give you a chance to defend. They immediately give the parents the guardianship. Now, this law was written to protect old people, and they are cheating and using the law against us. Sometimes old people become senile, and, let's say, they'll do harmful things. They may give away their money. They may do things in a state of... Prabhupāda: But we have got parents' organization also. Rāmeśvara: Now we do. Anyway, they're using this law against us. Prabhupāda: That they will do. They will do their best. We have to do our best. That's all. *Rāmeśvara: They say, "This would enable the court to remove the young person from the temple for medical examination and evaluation by cult*-knowledgeable psychiatrists and psychologists." In other words, deprogramming. "This is the best thing to do. The media would report it..." Prabhupāda: No, no. But one psyciatrist may give one verdict, but other psychiatrist may give another verdict. Then how the court will decide? Rāmeśvara: Because in these temporary guardianship cases, the court is already against us in many places. Prabhupāda: But... Against may be, but so far the decision of the psychiatrist, we can present our psychiatrist. *Rāmeśvara: There's no equal time given. It's one*-sided only. Prabhupāda: That means in the name of justice, injustice is going on. Rāmeśvara: Yes. This law is unconstitutional. I mentioned that there is a group of lawyers who are now organizing a committee nationwide to defend us, and they're going to prove that this law should be changed. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the right cause. Yes. Rāmeśvara: They're already working on that. So then they say, "If you can do this to your son, then it will get national news media into the scene, and then people will learn about Hare Kṛṣṇa in particular, and all the effects of destructive cults on our youth." Then it says, "We have a legal packet which contains advice on the procedure and techniques for legal deprogramming." Prabhupāda: So nowhere they have mentioned my name. That is good. (laughter) Otherwise, I would have been the target. That was very dangerous. Rāmeśvara: Sometimes... One of the general charges they make against all the different religious groups in America is that the leader is actually making a lot of profit for himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rāmeśvara: Like this Reverend Moon, he lives in a very, very big house, and he has a big car. And this Guru Maharaj*-ji, he has his own airplane. *Prabhupāda: Guru Maharaj*-ji has got? Rāmeśvara: He had his own airplane, which they had to sell. *Hari-śauri: That fat boy, Guru Maharaj*-ji. Prabhupāda: No, he had. So what is his position now? Rāmeśvara: His family has called him a false guru. So there's a slip. Prabhupāda: His mother. Hari-śauri: What was the effect of that? Rāmeśvara: He lost a lot of his following. The main ones... There are a few small ones. Moon, Reverend Moon, he is a big demon, and they're attacking him, so that's good. But then they try to make us to be just like him. I've heard them say that you have a big penthouse in Los Angeles, and you always drive in Rolls Royces. I've heard these things, but we... Prabhupāda: Yes, I heard all this. In Germany they accused me. You told me. Haṁsadūta: Yes, they also say that you're enjoying all this money. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Harikeśa said that if they're successful in their prosecution against Haṁsadūta, then they'll prosecute yourself, one leader to the other. They say that the leaders are manipulating, and the other ones are just robots. Trivikrama: Yes, we're all robots. Rāmeśvara: Whenever they meet a devotee who appears to be intelligent and not have any symptoms of being brainwashed, they accuse him of being one of the leaders. If I'm debating with one of them, or if any devotee, and they see he's very intelligent, they say, "But you are one of the leaders." Prabhupāda: Certainly that is a fact. (laughter) All GBC, they are leaders. Jagadīśa: So you're not brainwashed. Rāmeśvara: No, the leaders are the ones who are brainwashing everyone else. Hari-śauri: But then if someone becomes a leader... *Rāmeśvara: Then they say, "The next best thing to do after you get the deprogramming is to hold a press conference to explain all the reasons that there is a need for criminal conviction of destructive cult leaders. Have ex*-victims, especially of Hare Kṛṣṇa, present. The truth of their personal experiences carry great weight with reporters. It is now necessary to awaken America to how widespread..." Prabhupāda: I... In the beginning... I have told many times when I first went that "If I say these prohibitions, who will accept?" And now it has taken a shape, it has become a problem throughout the country. I was thinking, "Who will hear me? As soon as I'll say this, they'll say, 'Go home.' " But by Kṛṣṇa's arrangement it has become a problem. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. It has become a problem for them; it is success for me. Yes. I presented something which is now a problem for them. Jagadīśa: They waited too long. They didn't tell you to go home soon enough. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) No, my creed is at their home. Jagadīśa: You planted seeds in their home. *Rāmeśvara: Sometimes they capture... Very rarely they capture one of our members and they convince him to leave. And after they convince him to leave our movement, then they tell him many lies about us. And then he goes on television and tells the American public that we brainwashed him. So sometimes they get some of our ex*-members to speak against us. This is going on. In Los Angeles I have met three ex-devotees who viciously lie about us. Prabhupāda: Who is he? Rāmeśvara: Just minor devo... They're never leaders. Jagadīśa: Initiated? Rāmeśvara: One girl. And they're vicious, very hateful. Because they are constantly being told that we are evil. Prabhupāda: Nitāi has gone there to do it? (chuckles) No. Rāmeśvara: No. I think... Last I heard he was still in Vṛndāvana area. Prabhupāda: If he is in Vṛndāvana, that is good for him. Rāmeśvara: He is crazy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Then it says, "Other things need to be done. We have to get supportive comments from professionals and authorities in areas of religion, education, mental health and physical health, law, and sociology. Statements by experts and professionals carry a lot of weight." Prabhupāda: That is in our side. Rāmeśvara: "Ask your contact to comment or express his opinion of such things as that this is not a matter of religion; that there is resulting mental and physical harm; *the right of self*-determination means the right to have a free mind; destruction of the family unit..." Prabhupāda: So if one has the right to have a free mind, why he cannot chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Rāmeśvara: Well, their argument is that we do not allow him to consider alternatives. Prabhupāda: Then where is the question of a free mind? That means you brainwash. Rāmeśvara: Exactly. Prabhupāda: Free mind means everyone has the right. That is free mind. If you force something, then where is the free mind? Rāmeśvara: So actually they are understanding that once you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you will stop thinking about māyā. Prabhupāda: They're admitting. Rāmeśvara: They understand that... Their claim is that this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Is dangerous. (laughs) Rāmeśvara: ...is dangerous because it makes you stop thinking about so many other things. That is their... *Prabhupāda: That is our victory. That is victory because Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said that viṣaya viṣānale, dibā*-niśi hiyā jwale, taribare nā koinu upāy, golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma saṅkīrtana, rati nā janmilo kene tāy: "This material world is the burning fire of anxiety. So in order to get rid of it, we have to take shelter of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, which is imported from the spiritual sky." That is a fact. So as soon as you take shelter of Hare Kṛṣṇa, naturally we are relieved from this blazing fire of material existence. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Finished. Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. Mahā-dāvāgni, this fire of material existence, finished. That's a fact. So they have pointed out. This circumstance, it is good. Yes. That is the position. Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends that. In order to get rid of this blazing fire, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: Anyway, this goes on, but then what they're saying is there has to be a very big case where a cult leader of Hare Kṛṣṇa is sentenced to jail. So they're writing to say that "Now we have to find lawyers who will be willing to take up this cause very inexpensively." Prabhupāda: That means there is no money. *Rāmeśvara: But one recent development which will change that is that they have appealed to the government that they are an educational group. Therefore they should be tax exempt like any other educational organization, and the government has agreed. Now they have gotten their tax exemption, so now these parents can donate lots of... Different people will start donating lots of money to them as tax write*-offs. So I think that we will see that their activities will be expanded this year, because now they are tax exempt, they'll get a lot of money. Hari-śauri: That news article said that someone had given them $105,000. Some parents of a cult... Prabhupāda: No, there are rich parents. They can do that. And every parent is unhappy. (chuckles) Rāmeśvara: The fighting will increase this year. It's getting very acute, as you said in that letter. Prabhupāda: So they are feeling the strength of Hare Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: We're becoming the main target. Formerly it was this Reverend Moon, but his movement has been..., so many scandals, that it is beginning to lose its appeal to people. So now we are the main target faced. That is the most significant thing about this newsletter, that they are saying that "Formerly Reverend Moon... But he has already been exposed. So now let us direct all our energy against Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: But they do not know whom to expose. That they do not know. That's nice. Rāmeśvara: They are making it possible for us to preach in all the TVs, radios, and newspapers. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is our opportunity. The governor has invited. Jagadīśa: In the Kṛṣṇa book, after Kṛṣṇa told Rukmiṇī that He would have to leave her... Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: ...then she was speaking to Him and saying that "You say that no one can understand Your activities. And also no one can understand the activities of Your devotee." So nobody knows what we're doing. They all put some psychological name, but they can't grasp the essence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So they're afraid. Rāmeśvara: One of their big charges is that when we go out and distribute our books we are very aggressive, and therefore it is a sign that we are not actually religious. Prabhupāda: Every salesman must be aggressive. That is a qualification. Rāmeśvara: They say we are interfering with the right of the person. He doesn't want to speak to us, but we insist that he speak to us. Prabhupāda: That is salesman's qualification. Nobody is dying for our book, but if we can create market for our book, that is our qualification. Rāmeśvara: So then they will say, "Then that means you are not a religion. You're simply a business." *Prabhupāda: Yes. From business side... Religion means we are expert in every way. We can cheat also very nicely, which you cannot do. That is religion, expert in everything. Ṣaḍ*-aiśvarya-pūrṇaḥ. And Kṛṣṇa says that "Amongst the cheaters, I am the greatest cheat." Haṁsadūta: They think religious people should be fools. Prabhupāda: Yes, but our religion is not that. The most intelligent man can be religious. Haṁsadūta: They should be fools, and they should be poor. And we are neither fools nor poor. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. Rāmeśvara: We always answer their charge that "You are saying that all the people are being upset by us, but actually the proof is that we are getting so many letters every day, hundreds of letters, and all these letters, no complaints. Simply they want more information. They want to order all our books. So from our mail order we can see that these people are writing to us because they have been sold books on the street." Prabhupāda: So these letters are important. You can publish these letters in book. Those who are ordering our books, they... Rāmeśvara: Also, when we tell them, "Our magazine used to sell two hundred thousand copies a month, now it is selling five hundred thousand, seven hundred fifty thousand, some months one million copies. so that means the public is..." Prabhupāda: Yes. Becoming more interested. So let us go on fighting with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no disappointment. Yudhyasva mām anusmara [Bg. 8.7]. We shall fight and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then everything is all right. We cannot stop fighting. Rāmeśvara: Actually, one argument that they use... They have found an old Back to Godhead article that I think you wrote, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It was about Arjuna's position during the battle of Kurukṣetra, where he had to fight against his relatives. You were commenting that "So sometimes you may have to even kill your family members for Kṛṣṇa." So they take this magazine article, and they say that "Hare Kṛṣṇa leaders are teaching all the devotees to kill their parents." So this is an example of how they will distort everything. Prabhupāda: That... You can distort anything. If there is expert distortion, it is... Trivikrama: We can kill our parents even, like Prahlāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is actually required. Prahlāda did not protest. It is a great sin, if your father is being killed before you, if you do not protest even, "Why you are killing?" not to give protection. But even if you do not, then you are not worthy son. So in that way Prahlāda Mahārāja was accused that in his presence his father was being killed. He did not protest, neither he... Rather, he was ready with the garland: (laughter) "As soon as my father is killed, immediately garland the Lord." So that is not the fact. And he is... Later on, he requested that "My father was a great offender. So kindly give him protection." So he's not..., that son. He knows... He knew that this, "My father is being killed by the nails of my Lord. It is his great fortune." Why shall he protest? He's seeing that "My father is being released from this material existence." Why shall he protest? And still to confirm it, he requested the Lord that "This, my rascal father made so many offenses..." But for him he did not ask anything, but he's such a good son that for demon father he requested. So how much faithful son he was, this is the proof. Not that he was unfaithful to him. He knew it, that "Let my father's body be separated from his soul by the Lord. That is good for him." And still to confirm it he personally requested that "My father may be excused." "Why your father? Your father's father, his father, everyone, up to fourteen generations." Jagadīśa: Paropakāra. Prabhupāda: So to become devotee means to do the best service to the family. If there is one devotee in the family, all the forefathers, they are delivered. So anyway, don't be disappointed. Go on fighting and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything will be right. There is no cause of disappointment. Rāmeśvara: Actually the field now for preaching in America is better than ever. More people are becoming interested to hear what we are and what our message is than ever before because of all this controversy. Whenever something is making newspapers that is confusing or controversial, they immediately want to hear about it because they have a tendency to look for faults. Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. Rāmeśvara: But they're very eager to have us come to the colleges and high schools... Prabhupāda: Envious. Rāmeśvara: ...to speak. It's much easier now to get lecturing engagements than ever before. They are after us to give our lectures. Prabhupāda: So why not engage Brahmānanda in that business? Rāmeśvara: I think he could do well. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: In New York or L.A. Wherever you think... Prabhupāda: Let him go to the colleges accompanied by some other. Rāmeśvara: I was thinking that especially right now, this time, is the prime time for preaching in America. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let as many sannyāsīs as possible. Sannyāsī, brahmacārī or gṛhastha, it doesn't matter. Rāmeśvara: Cannot possibly cover all the territory. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: There's so much engagement in America right now. Prabhupāda: As far as possible, I think Brahmānanda should be engaged with some assistant or some superior. Two. He should not be alone. That is the best solution. Rāmeśvara: No one's giving engagements in New York. Now I have two people in L.A. beginning, Jagannath Sūta. Prabhupāda: Then this kīrtana... This is kīrtana, speaking. Whatever little fault is there, that will be rectified. Rāmeśvara: He'll like it too. Coming into America to help fight the demons. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately do that. This is conclusion. Engage him in preaching, and this is the opportunity. You said that "We require so many." Similarly, Madhudviṣa can be engaged also in that way. Rāmeśvara: Wow. I was thinking... I wrote him a letter. He was very happy to receive it. He posted it in the restaurant. I invited him to come to Los Angeles. I was encouraging him. Prabhupāda: That I am asking him from the very beginning, that he come. Rāmeśvara: If he doesn't feel comfortable coming all the way to India, maybe I can invite him to Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. I have sent him telegram, Madhudviṣa. I have sent him telegram that "You come." Rāmeśvara: He may be too entangled to come right away. Prabhupāda: What is that entanglement? Rāmeśvara: Well, he is not following all our principles. Trivikrama: Women. Rāmeśvara: He's got one woman friend. Jagadīśa: Govinda dāsī says that he doesn't want to come to India. Rāmeśvara: He thinks it's too austere. He needs something more gradual. Hari-śauri: He never liked India. Rāmeśvara: But this is a good idea. Prabhupāda: Then engage them. Rāmeśvara: If he's willing, he could give speaking engagements. I tell you, America is just wide open. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why not take this... Suppose he is attracted by some woman. Let him dress like a gentleman and keep with the woman as husband and wife and preach. What is the wrong there? Whatever is done, you close up that chapter. Now you become a householder. There is no harm. And live as a gentleman householder and preach. But don't play duplicity in the dress of sannyāsī to keep private relations. That is not good. That is duplicity. Better openly become a respectable householder and serve Kṛṣṇa. Our service is main thing, either in this dress or that dress. So if you cannot keep yourself sincerely as a sannyāsī, then get yourself married. But you cannot keep the girl as friend. That is also not good. Jagadīśa: But for Brahmānanda, he may remain sannyāsī? Brahmānanda? Prabhupāda: That is his choice. But we say that "Don't be hypocrite." That's all. If he thinks now he'll be able to continue as a sannyāsī, he'll not fall down, he'll be careful, let him continue. That will depend on his sincerity. But I say that if you cannot remain as a sannyāsī, get yourself married, live like a gentleman and serve Kṛṣṇa. Why should you give up Kṛṣṇa's service? That is my point. As you want to live, any way, comfortably, do it. We never condemned gṛhasthas. If sannyāsa is not suitable for you, you remain as a gṛhastha. What is the wrong there? Jagadīśa: I'm going to call him this evening. Prabhupāda: Why? Rāmeśvara: Brahmānanda. Jagadīśa: To give him direction. Prabhupāda: No, no, he's coming. Kīrtanānanda has gone. Rāmeśvara: Kīrtanānanda has gone, but now they are a little confused what should be done next. They originally... The plan was that he was going to come here to be your secretary. So now they need some new instruction. So we thought Jagadīśa could call and invite him to come to America to preach. Prabhupāda: That is better. That is better. To write some letters here, that is not so important. But if he can preach and he... At least, we are expecting... He's old sannyāsī. He knows how to preach. Let him do that. Jagadīśa: So I'll suggest that he goes straight to America instead of coming here. Prabhupāda: If he's coming here, let him come. We shall talk together. There is no secrecy. Jagadīśa: I'll leave it up to him, as he prefers. Prabhupāda: Yes. If he's coming, don't stop him. That is... Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've got a letter here from Jayādvaita and from Jagannātha dāsa regarding some corrections. These are two books that are in production right now. So would it be all right to ask you them? *Prabhupāda: What is that book? [break] Sarvātmana yaḥ śaraṇaṁ śaraṇyam. Factually Kṛṣṇa is the ultimate shelter. If he has taken that shelter, he's free, immune. And that Kṛṣṇa has confirmed here. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo... [Bg. 18.66]. If he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious, then if he gives such a duty, he's liable to fall down. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣ... "Because you are giving up all other duties, don't think that you'll be liable to punishment. I'll give you protection." So the conclusion is: if one is not fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he's obliged to do his duty. This is the easiest way to become free from all obligation*-to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That, I think, duśyanta-rāja? *Pradyumna: Duśyanta*-rāja. Duśyanta-rāja. Prabhupāda: Or Santānu. Santānu. Santānu Mahārāja. He, in the presence of his elder brother, he became king. His elder brother left. So it was considered sinful. But he request his elder brother to come and take charge of the... He said, "No, I am not going." Then he took. Otherwise it was not in the proper order. Because Vedic injunction, that... (end) *Morning Walk-*-January 9, 1977, Bombay Prabhupāda: That you'll find everywhere. There is no such thing. Dr. Patel: Americans are more sophisticated. [break] Prabhupāda: They are thinking like that. Dr. Patel: The court's ruling like that, then it will be... *Prabhupāda: No, we have got our own fight. The thought*-checking. "I am thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Why you are checking me?" This will be our defense. Do you think Kṛṣṇa-thinking is illegal and madness? Then you have to condemn the whole Hindu religion. Trivikrama: Every religion. *Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is taken as Hindu God. So I'm thinking of Hindu God. Why you are checking? [break] We are reading Bhagavad*-gītā and killing Kṛṣṇa. This... Our national father is supposed to be a great devotee of Bhagavad-gītā, but Kṛṣṇa is killed. Why the government does not take it seriously? Gandhi wanted Bhagavad-gita as guide. Why they are not taking? Dr. Patel: That is the Vaiṣṇava (Hindi). Prabhupāda: That is all bogus. Bogus. Simply bogus. Politics. In Gandhi's āśrama I saw not a single Vaiṣṇava or Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Photographs, you mean to say. Prabhupāda: Yes. "He's Vaiṣṇava." Bogus. Dr. Patel: He never visited any temple. Prabhupāda: Bogus! Simply politics. Dr. Patel: He wanted to kill(?) other Muslims and all other... Especially untouchable. *Prabhupāda: The people approached him that "Mahatmaji, you have got influence over the Muslims, why not stop cow*-killing?" "I cannot touch on their religious principles." Just see. Cow-killing is religious? Their religious principle. If I say my father-killing, mother-killing is my religion, so Gandhi will say, "Yes, you can do that. Nonviolent." Kill nonviolent. This nonsense contradiction can be tolerated by the fools and rascals. That's all. That is... Nonviolence, at the same time cow-killing. This rascal, another rascal... You are observing Buddha-jayantī and daily cow-killing. As if Buddha, Lord Buddha, recommended cow-killing. *Dr. Patel: Buddhists all eat, are meat*-eaters the world over. *Prabhupāda: Not a question of Buddhist. That is Christian, Hindus, everyone. Rascals. Lord Buddha, he was nonviolent, and this Jawaharlal Nehru was observing Buddha*-jayantī and at the same time sanctioning cow-killing. What is that? Cow-killing. "What is wrong in eating meat?" He has said that. [break] ...advertising our movement. Everyone's asking, "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa?" That is the whole American people. Even if one did not know, he is "What is Hare Kṛṣṇa?" And our books are selling, "What is this Kṛṣṇa book?" So indirectly they're advertising. [break] Their greatest shock that "Our people being taught 'No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication.' Then where is our civilization?" This is their greatest shock. Any sane man can understand that this Hindu culture is being forcibly introduced. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Must be. That is also the same person, meat*-eating, how you can separate? Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Free. Freedom. We have cherished that type of freedom in our country. Prabhupāda: No, they are thinking I am checking on their freedom. They eat meat. I say, "No, don't eat meat." So I am checking on their freedom. They'll take it in that way. Jagadīśa: It's called a fool's paradise. Dr. Patel: These people must have sort of a false sense of superiority also because of that. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another point. India is becoming superior. Dr. Patel: (laughs) I think that is more... Prabhupāda: And her controlling this younger generation. That is another point of... Dr. Patel: They're putting black man without any penny in his pocket, like that. Prabhupāda: In 1971 many papers astonished how one Indian is controlling so many white men. There, our paper became surprised. They cannot control even one white man. Dr. Patel: This type of mental, sort of makeup, has been created after the industrial revolution, because... Prabhupāda: These German people have accused that "The old man is sitting in Los Angeles and he has engaged all these young boys and getting money from them." The German propaganda. They're thinking that way, that I have some mind control power, I engaged these young men and they're getting money and I am enjoying. Trivikrama: Everyone judges others from their own standard. Prabhupāda: They're surprised, the neighboring people around our temple, "How do you live so comfortably? You have got so many cars and so nice house." But they are working hard like hogs and dogs and we are getting money without doing anything. They are envious. Trivikrama: We invite them to come and join us. Prabhupāda: That they will not. Why there? Here also. They are envious for this Hare Kṛṣṇa, but when you call, "You come and live here," that they will avoid. They're envious of my opulence, and when I say, invite, "You come also and join," "No. I'll rot as hog. That's all. I prefer this hoggish life." *Trivikrama: And the she*-hog. Dr. Patel: This will create a sort of a turmoil... Prabhupāda: It has already created. Dr. Patel: ...America at this particular judgment. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Dr. Patel: It will create much more turmoil. Trivikrama: Jaya. Prabhupāda: The more they create turmoil, the more we become famous. Haṁsadūta: They say mind control and brainwashing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but actually that is what you are doing. You are cleaning our brain and teaching us how to control our minds. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our method is ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Yes, actually it is washing. Dr. Patel: Brainwashing is very bad in India, not only in America but the whole world over. *Prabhupāda: I condemn everyone, that "You are all dogs and hogs." And United Nations a pack of dogs barking. That's a fact. And in Chicago I said, all women, "You cannot have freedom. You have got only thirty*-four-ounce brain, and man has got sixty-four-ounce." I told them. So I became a subject of very great criticism. Trivikrama: Women's liberation. *Prabhupāda: I denied, "No, you cannot have." I told them. One girl in the airship, she was seeing like (makes some gesture*-laughter). I asked her, "Give me 7-Up." "It is locked now." So I frankly said that "No, no. You cannot have equal rights because your brain is thirty-four ounce." Actually that's a fact. Where is woman philosopher, mathematician, scientist? Not a single. Dr. Patel: Apart from that, I mean, they are made for a particular mission. Prabhupāda: How they can have equal rights? Up to date in the history there is not a single woman who is a great scientist or great philosopher or great... Dr. Patel: Madame Curie was a... Prabhupāda: All bogus. (laughter) Dr. Patel: You are getting too harsh on them because... Prabhupāda: No, no. How can I give you equal rights, because your brain is less substance. Dr. Patel: We cannot degrade our mothers that way. Prabhupāda: It is not degrading. It is accepting the actual fact. Dr. Patel: These girls are misled, these American girls. Prabhupāda: There is no history. There is no history. Just like Kunti's mother. She produced so many heroes, but she was not hero. She could produce heroes like Arjuna, like Bhima. But not that she becomes hero. Dr. Patel: Mother can produce heroes... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Still, nobody will say that Kuntī is as good as Arjuna or Bhima. Dr. Patel: How can anybody say? Prabhupāda: That is... How you'll get the equal rights? Dr. Patel: No woman smaller than Kuntī could have produced an Arjuna. Prabhupāda: You can produce. That is another thing. A cook can produce foodstuff suitable for rich man, but that does not mean he is rich man. Dr. Patel: You argue. (laughs) Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, you told one story about the animals having a meeting and trying to become free from the control of (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Our śāstras say (Sanskrit). Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) Everyone is (Sanskrit). That is according to his position. That does not mean equal. Kṛṣṇa Himself worshiped Sudāmā Vipra. That does not mean Sudāmā Vipra is as good as the Personality of Godhead. When Nārada was coming in Dvārakā, Kṛṣṇa immediately got down and... Nārada was smiling, "Just see the fun." But etiquette. Nārada never said that "I am better than Kṛṣṇa or equal to Kṛṣṇa." Never said. Trivikrama: Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira the same. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone. Everyone knew their position. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is addressed by Arjuna, "Acyuta, You promised to drive my chariot, therefore I'm asking You. Don't forget. You never deviate from Your promise." Acyuta. Senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me 'cyuta [Bg. 1.21]. "Don't forget that You are Acyuta. Don't think that I am Your servant, I am ordering." He knows that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. I am ordering Him." Haṁsadūta: You were explaining to that reporter in Pennsylvania, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that actually this women's liberation is just a trick by the men. Prabhupāda: Yes! It is trick by the men, yes. Dr. Patel: How... Could you explain that? Prabhupāda: Because if they remain free, they get young women free. That's rascal's man brain. That "You take freedom." *Dr. Patel: This is a third*-class argument. Prabhupāda: This is argument! This is argument. This is fact. These rascals keep these women unmarried to enjoy daily new, new young women, these karmīs, these rascals. There is club. There is club. These young women are paid for that topless, bottomless. You do not know. Dr. Patel: No. I have never seen a girl naked. I refuse to... Prabhupāda: I have... I know everything. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, you gave the example that what is the use of keeping a cow if you can get milk in the marketplace. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Cow*-keeping is expensive. Dr. Patel: Why keep a cow when milk is available. (laughs) Trivikrama: It's a fact. The young men think like that. Prabhupāda: They make pregnant and they go away. And this poor girl, either she has to kill the child or beg from the government, "Give me welfare; otherwise..." Is that freedom? These rascal woman... Dr. Patel: This is freedom. Actually the government recognized... Prabhupāda: Government means a set of rascals. But practical point of view the woman wants equal right. Equal rights they enjoy, and the woman becomes pregnant, and he goes away, the boy. And she has to kill the child or beg from the government. This is her freedom. And still, equal rights. Where equal right? The boy has gone away. You also go away? No. You'll have to carry the child. To get freedom you have to kill or you have to beg. And still she thinks, "I am free." Dr. Patel: Such experience (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Rather we are giving freedom, that "Never mind you have got illegitimate son. Come here. Live with us. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Trivikrama: And by teaching them to be chaste... Prabhupāda: Yes. And teaching "Don't do it again." That's all. We are giving. And they are happy. My Godbrothers criticize that "You keep women in the temple." I tell them, "I cannot reject." Dr. Patel: I was also thinking like that, today, I mean, presence I said, that Vaiṣṇavas keep woman... Prabhupāda: It is different situation. I cannot reject anyone. Dr. Patel: No, that's right. You are right. But this is a great affecting the boys down here. After all... Prabhupāda: But they are taught, "Don't be misled." But if they cannot, that (indistinct). I cannot deny. I cannot deny. I cannot say that "You are woman. You are condemned." I cannot. Dr. Patel: Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to keep women away from... Prabhupāda: That is personally as a sannyāsī, not that... He never said that women should be refused Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Patel: No. Nobody has said so. But they should not mix. Prabhupāda: Here in the Western country it is their custom to mix, intermingle freely. How can I stop it? I may stop in my temple, but they will do it outside. So it is impossible. Jagadīśa: Nowadays even in the universities, they allow the free mixing of boys and girls in the same dormitories. In the same dormitories. Prabhupāda: Same room. Dr. Patel: In the same dormitories they live together you mean. Girls have no separate... Jagadīśa: Oh, yes. Free mixing. Trivikrama: Same showers even. Bathroom the same. Dr. Patel: Oh, were... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa gives freedom. Striyo śūdras tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parām. "Never mind. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come on." Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa [Bg. 9.32]. "Anyone. Come on. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Take prasāda." This is my propaganda. Dr. Patel: My mind is haunted by those (indistinct). There will be somebody... Prabhupāda: I know that I sincere to Kṛṣṇa, He'll do the rest. Dr. Patel: That is right. You have extreme faith. *Prabhupāda: Faith means extreme faith. Not reserved. Faith does not mean any reservation. What is that? Bhajate mām ananya*-bhāk. This is... Ananya-bhāk. No reservation. That is... Sādhur eva. He is sādhu. Whatever he does, it doesn't matter. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. He sādhu. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso [Bg. 9.13]. These are the words. Require staunch faithful devotion. Then you are perfect. Then doesn't matter what you are, what you are doing. Whether the real point is fixed up. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Fifty percent, ten percent devotion... Dr. Patel: Not even .001 percent reservation. I mean so far the bhakti's concerned. Bhaktya avyabhicareṇa. *Prabhupāda: That is. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhuyaya [Bg. 14.26]. Even in the Brahman platform. Not in the material platform. Sa guṇān samatītya. Sama-prakarena utītya(?). Cent percent utītya(?). Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. This is credit. Dr. Patel: This is credit, and this is also, I mean, that this should happen also... Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is the right movement. This is the test. Dr. Patel: If all that... Prabhupāda: Who cares for this Transcendental Meditation? They are not hogging any propaganda. It is coming this ear and going this ear. They don't care for it. So many others have gone. Who cares for them? They are not serious for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because they know it is changing the whole civilization. Haṁsadūta: There's that one verse you were saying, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that so many Brahmās may come and go... *Prabhupāda: Unless there is opposition, it is not genuine. It is not genuine or it is not serious. Opposition must be there. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*-there is opposition always, from the very beginning of His birth. Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa had all the opposition throughout His life. Prabhupāda: Throughout His life. That means genuine Supreme Lord. Before His birth. Dr. Patel: Before, yes. And after, He was cursed (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: Śiśupāla was His cousin*-brother. *Dr. Patel: Cousin*-brother. (Sanskrit) If you consider that, He rose against all odds. Greater the opposition, better you become. *Prabhupāda: Samo 'haṁ sarva*-bhūteṣu [Bg. 9.29]. God must be equal to everyone. Dr. Patel: You are right. With that extreme faith, Jesus took to the cross. Huh? [break] Prabhupāda: That is the greatness of the movement. [break] Dr. Patel: We will be meeting with all people in the whole world. And you will be... Prabhupāda: Yes, I am the oldest. Dr. Patel: (laughing) Keep in my hand and walk. And I would say, sir, that you also should not take bath in cold water. Prabhupāda: No, I don't take. I... Since 1970, 1966, '67, I am not taking cold bath. Before that, even in America I was taking twice cold water bath. Dr. Patel: I have never taken cold water in my life. Prabhupāda: Shower I was taking. Dr. Patel: All these boys take cold water, required from them. Prabhupāda: I never used hot water. In India the Delhi is the coldest part. In my business life, in the hotel I was taking cold water. Everyone was surprised. "How you can?" In Saharanpur, in bitter cold, I was taking cold water early in the morning. Dr. Patel: This will be extreme cold in river. I have taken bath in the confluence four or five years back. It was not winter, but then it was... It is cold throughout the year because snow melt and keep water very cold. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...gentleman will have a flag in the home. Dr. Patel: During the times of Moguls you have seen all the pictures with the flag. Prabhupāda: That was the system. Our Pandit Jawaharlal was keeping one flag also, always. Dr. Patel: But what prosperity India must have. Those people from Europe tried to find out India and went down there and found America. What prosperity they must have... What prosperity India must have then. Prabhupāda: India can have prosperity even now if they take their own culture. Dr. Patel: No, even material prosperity I mean to say, sir. Prabhupāda: Material. Mind is also material. Dr. Patel: Europeans came here for material prosperity. *Prabhupāda: If you want satisfaction of the mind, that is material. That is not spiritual. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni. Indian lady: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) [break] Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni. Mind and the senses, they're prakṛti-sthāni. They're not spiritual. Dr. Patel: No, but, sir, if that is material... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Mind is subtle matter. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir.... Bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā [Bg. 7.4]. They are separated five material energies. Apareyam. They are inferior. Those who are in the mental platform, they are also inferior. The so*-called philosopher, scientist and others, they are on the mental platform. Therefore they're inferior. Apareyam. These eight elements, those who are dealing with these eight elements, apara, inferior. And they are advertising that "We are superior." "The spiritual consciousness is brainwashed. We are superior." This is the fault. Of the inferior position, they are claiming superior position. Apareyam itas tu... And Kṛṣṇa is giving practical example: "Apareyam: this is inferior. Beyond this there is a superior nature. What is that? Jīva bhūta." Immediately. And still the rascal cannot understand what is superior, inferior. (Indian lady converses in Hindi with Prabhupāda) Chase after them, "Get out! Get out! Your visa is finished." (Hindi) Hundred cases. Hundred times hundred. (Hindi) [break] Rāmeśvara: That is our argument. Dr. Patel: It would be the brainwash. To have washed it against... *Prabhupāda: I am thinking of Kṛṣṇa, and if you stop me to think of Kṛṣṇa, is it not going against my thought? Bhagavad*-gītā, it is recommended, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. So this is a standard thing. So I thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Why you should stop me? Is it not infringement my freedom? Rāmeśvara: They argue that they are not stopping you from thinking about Kṛṣṇa. They want to stop you from being a member of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Why? If I have to think of Kṛṣṇa, I must be member of the society. Otherwise how can I think of? Suppose if I have to do business, share business, I have to become a member of the share market. Rāmeśvara: They say that the way the society is managed... Prabhupāda: You can say. But this is the system. If you have got some thought, you must mix with such similar thoughtful men. That is everywhere. The scholars, they associate; the medical men, they associate. How can you stop it? Rāmeśvara: They don't think it's healthy. Prabhupāda: They may think anything nonsense, but this is practically going on. The medical men, they make their association. Especially in your country, unless one is member of the medical association he cannot practice. *Rāmeśvara: But the medical association does not take up twenty*-four hours. *Prabhupāda: No. Not only twenty*-four hours, twenty-six hours. Rāmeśvara: That is their charge, that it is too extreme. They say we isolate the devotees from the real world. We don't let them read newspapers, we don't let them... Prabhupāda: That is your real world, but you do not know what is reality. Your real world is this body. But this body is not real. That, you rascal, you cannot understand. Your reality is this body, but body not real. Rāmeśvara: Even if this world is not real, temporarily it's real. *Prabhupāda: Temporary, yes. So I am eternal. I must associate with eternity. Why shall I..., temporary. Suppose if somebody comes in India, American, that is his temporary residence. Why shall I accept India as everything? Similarly this body is another India or for Indian, American. It is temporary, asann, asat. Asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ [SB 5.5.4]. This body is temporary. That you have no knowledge. Why shall I be attached to the temporary things? I am the owner of the body, I am reality, so I must realize myself. Self*-realization. This is self-realization, that "I am not this body, I am pure soul, Brahman." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Dr. Patel: Even Jesus said so. Prabhupāda: Christ said that if getting everything one loses his own soul... What is that? Trivikrama: "What is the value?" Prabhupāda: "What is the value?" Rāmeśvara: They would say that we are ignoring this world and retreating from it. Prabhupāda: We must! We must! You rascal! You do not know the science. Trivikrama: They have their retreats and monasteries, Christians also. Prabhupāda: We must. That is the science. That is... You do not know, because your tail is cut you want others also to cut his tail. Rāmeśvara: Their main charge is that we are deceptive. In other words, we tell people that we are like this, but actually we are different. They say we tell people we will make them more intelligent... Prabhupāda: If you are different, how the professors and scholars, they are accepting our (indistinct), they're taking our books? Rāmeśvara: They say that's all right, but you practice differently than your books. *Prabhupāda: No. Our book says man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto. We always think of Kṛṣṇa. We act according, strictly according to our books. That is our position. Rāmeśvara: The book says that this is the highest consciousness. They say it is not complete, because it doesn't have anything to do with the real world. Prabhupāda: But we say that you are rascals. That's all. Dr. Patel: If they say we have nothing to do with real world, where does the real world go when they are sleeping? (indistinct) I think that you must go for that. No? We must find out the full according to their own folly, not according to our reason. Rāmeśvara: Just... The example of their charge of deception is that we are the Hare Kṛṣṇas, but when we go to sell our books we are in disguise. Therefore people do not know that they are giving money to the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So they say our whole movement is like that in many different ways; we are tricking people. Trivikrama: No, but the priests nowadays, they don't always wear the collar, because they want to feel comfortable with the people. They dress... Rāmeśvara: They say "If people knew you were the Hare Kṛṣṇa, they would not give you so much money." Haṁsadūta: Even the police, in order to catch a criminal, they sometimes go in disguise. They act as criminals, in order to catch a criminal. So we also have to do that. We have to act like demons sometimes. Rāmeśvara: (laughing) To catch a demon. Dr. Patel: These boys are very clever. (laughs) Jagadīśa: Vāmanadeva also went in disguise. And Kṛṣṇa, Bhīma, and Arjuna went in disguise. They killed Jarāsandha. *Haṁsadūta: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you wrote about Prahlāda Mahārāja, they tried to find out "Where are these Vaiṣṇavas? They must be coming in disguise to teach the boys Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: What is the wrong there? Dr. Patel: (indistinct) American gangsters. You can't be gangsters. They will be gangsters. Trivikrama: For Kṛṣṇa we can be anything. Dr. Patel: You can't be gangsters. There is some difference between them and you. Rāmeśvara: This scholar from Harvard University, he's explained it very nicely. He says that today Christianity and Judaism are materialistic, and the people who follow those religions have misunderstood their own faith, and the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is reminding them. And it is the work of God. Prabhupāda: How nice he has... Rāmeśvara: His name is Dr. Harvey Cox. He is widely known all over the world as a leading Christian theologian. He has written many books. And he said that Christianity today is synonymous with profit, material gain, accumulation, performance, material success. So it has lost or it has forgotten its original message. And it takes something as exotic as the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement from India to remind a Christian that there's another way of life, based on simplicity and truth and spirituality. Prabhupāda: He's right. And he's a very important man. Rāmeśvara: He has joined this society to defend us. He's now traveling different places in the United States to speak on our behalf. Prabhupāda: He's serious gentleman. That is wanted. Kṛṣṇa will help us. Dr. Patel: Aldous Huxley is another, he's also very... Trivikrama: He's dead. Dr. Patel: He is dead. No? He is dead? How long? Trivikrama: Since 1962. Dr. Patel: I had no idea of it. I am reading his books thinking he is still alive. Trivikrama: He's a Māyāvādī, anyway. Prabhupāda: Who? Trivikrama: Aldous Huxley. Prabhupāda: Aldous Huxley. He is useless. Anyone connected with the Ramakrishna Mission is a useless. Immediately take it. Dr. Patel: He was connected with Ramakrishna Mission. *Rāmeśvara: On one radio show they quoted from this Dr. Radhakrishnan that when you read Bhagavad*-gītā you should not think that Kṛṣṇa is God. So then they say, "So even in India they reject this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement." They say "Look, this is the president of India. He is saying do not take Kṛṣṇa as God." Prabhupāda: So even in your own country, the priest talks crazily. We should reply that. Why do you go to India? In your country, your countrymen take it. Rāmeśvara: Jesus was crucified in his own country. Dr. Patel: By his own men. Prabhupāda: There is a Bengali proverb (Bengali). In a village, if a saintly person comes from outside, he is invited. And if a saintly person there is in the village, nobody cares for him. Trivikrama: Yes. The Bible says the same. Prabhupāda: (laughs, repeats saying) Dr. Patel: This will create some difficulty for your movement? Prabhupāda: We don't care for it. We will go on. Caravan will pass. Let the dogs bark. Dr. Patel: The dogs may bite. Prabhupāda: No. Barking dog never bites. (laughter) They simply make their show. Neither they can bite. We shall go now? (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 9, 1977, Bombay Prabhupāda: Then somebody must be there to look after the construction. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can send one boy, Vijeta, from here. He's not doing very much, and he's on the construction department. I was just waiting for Saurabha to come back. *Prabhupāda: So he can go, because Gaura*-Govinda will be engaged for collecting. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Vijeta and his wife, they can both go right now... Prabhupāda: Very bitter. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This medicine? Prabhupāda: So? You had been there? Jagadīśa: We're going... All three of us are going. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: At one o'clock. Prabhupāda: So what other news? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I had previously told you that the BBT was... Because it's doing very heavy printing at the moment, say, for two months we need a little loan. Prabhupāda: You showed me you have got four lakhs. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is including an accounts receivable. That money's invested in books. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Para*-hasta tataṁ dhanam. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Like Gargamuni owes BBT one and a half lakhs. *Prabhupāda: I know that. That is called para*-hasta tataṁ dhanaṁ puti-gata-vidyā. "I am very learned man." How? "Now I can speak when I see the books." That means "Personally, I have not assimilated anything. I can... And I have got money. I have to realize this." (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, these are books already sold. These are books sold. Prabhupāda: That's nice, but the money is not in your hand. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He sends twenty thousand rupees every month and... These are books that... Last month only he hasn't sent us. These are books that are already sold. Prabhupāda: So realize this money. Otherwise, what is the value of this money if you cannot realize? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Also we're doing a lot of printing in Bengali and other languages. Prabhupāda: So anyway, they are selling books. They must pay. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Yes. So I was... If we could get a loan of one lakh for two or three months, because now we are printing the Gītā and the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, First Canto. Prabhupāda: So that I can give, loan. I am giving... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Within two or three... Prabhupāda: But you never return. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I returned all your loans. In Vṛndāvana loans were all... We haven't taken any loan in Vṛndāvana. The only loan which I didn't return was which was taken from Māyāpura two years ago with Jayapatāka. They're, (I'm?) supposed to pay back. The BBT... Prabhupāda: So now you... Our big business brain is here, Rāmeśvara. If he recommends, I can do. Rāmeśvara: For his...? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For the book expansion. Prabhupāda: He wants one lakh loan. So if you recommend, I'll give. Rāmeśvara: Who's going to drive the party? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, this is for book printing. Bhavabhuti's going to handle the party. Rāmeśvara: The loan is for book printing? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, for book printing. We're printing the Bhagavad*-gītā now. Rāmeśvara: Then who's going to pay for the vehicles? You are, right? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Rāmeśvara: I think the loan is for the vehicles. Who's taking out the party? (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. No, it's not. I'm going to... Prabhupāda: Now, cool headed, you can study the situation. If you recommend, I'll give. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Thing is, I only wanted you to give... Prabhupāda: No, you convince him. If he recommends, I'll give you. He is businesslike. I know him. So if he recommends, I'll give. He's very correct to his word. Businessman is correct to his word. That is the... No speculation. Now our Hyderabad affair is not in very order. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: So what to do? Rāmeśvara, you are here. You can see. They are not cooperating. And besides that, Mahāṁsa takes loan. He never returns. He has taken about five lakhs for the temple. So I have already told to the auditor and the... They are (indistinct). This is going on. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we are working... Prabhupāda: So you keep account in such a way that whatever income it is, it is spent for books. Print some... You also do there. Whatever income you get, you spend for promotion. This principle should be followed. All businessmen are doing that. Whatever income is there, it is spent for maintenance establishment. That's all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like if we buy a bus also, it's going to increase our expenses. Prabhupāda: And gṛhastha devotees who are actually engaged, you can give them some expenditure. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think what you said, fifty rupees a week, is okay. Prabhupāda: That is sufficient. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: With one child, fifty rupees a week. Prabhupāda: For child only? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Those who don't have children, their expenses are low so they should get less. Prabhupāda: They have no expenditure. What expenditure? They are getting free boarding and lodging. Maybe little. But that our ISKCON can supply. Of course, one who has got children, they require little. So manage like that, that there is no profit. That's all. Keep account in that way. So this one lakh of rupees, if you take, when you'll return? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll return it by March, because on this export order, it's very high profit just on the... Rāmeśvara: When you borrow, do you give Śrīla Prabhupāda interest on it? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can give. I have never borrowed so far money. I haven't borrowed a penny so far except once when I came... Prabhupāda: "That I did not pay." (laughs) When he takes money, he says, "No, it is not to be paid." Therefore it is no borrowing. Several times I have given you money. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've never borrowed... Just once, Jayapatāka's loan, right when I came to India. Prabhupāda: All right. Now if he recommends, I'll give. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And since the Vṛndāvana temple opened, we did about three, four lakhs' worth of construction, without taking one penny from you. Prabhupāda: I am giving one lakh rupees per month. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. That is for Gurukula. Plus we contributed about three lakhs to Gurukula's construction. Two lakhs. Prabhupāda: Now we are paying two lakhs per month. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In the initial stages the Gurukula construction was done from the money that we had collected in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: No, from the beginning I am paying. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About two lakhs went out of Vṛndāvana temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So that day is nice? Pradyumna: February 2nd. It is Wednesday, Bhudvar. There is one good... (?) Prabhupāda: So in Orissa you'll be also there? Rāmeśvara: They want me to go back to Los Angeles for that concert, because the governor is coming. That popular Hindu singer, Lata Mangeskar, she's giving a benefit concert in Los Angeles on January 30th. Prabhupāda: So who will be the big ticket purchaser? Rāmeśvara: Satsvarūpa. Oh. You mean in Los Angeles? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Hindus. Rāmeśvara: There are approximately eight thousand Hindus living in Los Angeles, and we have rented one auditorium that seats six thousand people. So if they only sell two thousand seats, it does not cost any money. It covers all the expenses. Anything over two thousand seats is profit for ISKCON. Prabhupāda: So how many Indians are there? *Rāmeśvara: Altogether in Los Angeles, eight thousand. Plus Indians from San Francisco will come to this concert because she is very popular. Gopāla sent one devotee, Jagat*-puruṣa, to manage the ticket selling. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is expert. Rāmeśvara: And we are trying to print one souvenir book also and take advertisements from local stores and shops. In this way we will also make money. Prabhupāda: So you have to go back? [break] Rāmeśvara: They want me to be there to make sure the concert is a success. And Satsvarūpa Mahārāja is coming for Kumbha Mela. So he's planning to stay on with you for the whole month of February and March as secretary. Prabhupāda: Oh. And you are going to Vṛndāvana? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's going to Kumbha Mela first. Jagadīśa: ...has business there to be... Prabhupāda: You are not attending Kumbha Mela. You are going to Delhi from here. Jagadīśa: I'm thinking about going to Kumbha Mela first, for a couple of days. *Prabhupāda: Anywhere, this is our main program. Print books as many as possible and distribute. This is our main program. All other programs are secondary. So with this aim in view, work all together. Our Caitanya*-caritāmṛta is unique literature. For Caitanya-caritāmṛta, we are above any ācārya. There are four ācāryas: Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī... But our Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's legacy, ācārya's, that is unique. Anarpita-cariṁ cirāt karuṇayāvatīrṇa kalau. Here the Supreme Personality of Godhead is personally teaching-ācārya. Anarpita-cariṁ cirāt karuṇayāvatīrṇa kalau samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasam. The highest topmost bliss, madhurya. These dealings of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, madhurya-rasa, is the contribution of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. All other ācāryas, they could not give up to this. All other ācāryas, they contributed up to friendship, no vatsalya, neither madhurya. That is this contribution of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. There was dealings of mother Yasoda with Kṛṣṇa in the Bhāgavata. The Vallabhācāryas'...,they have got Bala-kṛṣṇa. But the dealings of gopīs with Kṛṣṇa, that was not granted. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's contribution. Anarpita-carim means was never contributed. Anarpita-cariṁ cirāt karuṇayāvatīrṇa kalau samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasaṁ sva-bhakti-sriyam, hariḥ pūvata-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandipitaḥ sadā hṛdaya-kandare sphurati... That is the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. How do they like Caitanya-caritāmṛta in Western...? Rāmeśvara: The devotees like it. They relish. Prabhupāda: It is for the devotees. It is not for the neophyte. Rāmeśvara: It's a little difficult for the average man if it is his first book. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not for the neophyte. Those who are actually in devotional service*-for them it is. *Rāmeśvara: Mostly we are selling Bhagavad*-gītā, ratio of two Bhagavad-gītās for every other book, twice as many Bhagavad-gītās, as an introduction. Prabhupāda: That is the introduction. And *Śrīmad Bhāgavatam*? *Rāmeśvara: First Canto. Mostly First Canto. We're only printing twenty thousand copies of every volume. But of First Canto we always print fifty thousand copies. And now Bhagavad*-gītā, we have printed one and a half million copies. Prabhupāda: That's abridged. Rāmeśvara: For one year's sales. Prabhupāda: That's very nice. (laughs) One and half million. Rāmeśvara: They say it is the largest printing in the history of the Western United States. They are giving Bhaktivedanta Book Trust credit now for the largest printing of any publisher in the Western United States for one title. And for our printer, the only books... He has never printed... He prints encyclopedia, he prints the Bible, but he has never printed so many copies of one book all at one time. This one and a half million copies should be printed all at once. Prabhupāda: They are proud of printing. Rāmeśvara: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is good. Rāmeśvara: He says that his press will have to run continuously for twenty days and twenty nights just to print all these books without taking any other business. Prabhupāda: That's a great... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In India it would take one year to do. Prabhupāda: They have very big, big printing press. *Rāmeśvara: They are so proud that they have offered to hold a big press conference to announce to the press and all the journals of printers that they have gotten this order to print so many copies of Bhagavad*-gītā from the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Prabhupāda: Let them say that. This is our advertising. And let this opposition party understand that "If it is brainwash, then your whole country is now washed. (laughter) How you'll protect them? It is already washed." Tell them like that, humorous. Rāmeśvara: The price of this printing... Prabhupāda: Very cheap. No, we are supplying also very cheap. Rāmeśvara: Yes. But last year we printed 500,000 copies, this year, one and a half million copies, and the savings was $200,000. We have gotten them to reduce the price so much that now, just because we have ordered so many books, we will save 200,000... Prabhupāda: Why not spend some money for advertisement? It will be noticed. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can advertise them in prestigious papers like Reader's Digest or printer's... Prabhupāda: Nice advertisement. Spend some money. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That will increase our prestige. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we should advertise in America as Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, not Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, no. As Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Actually, we have to keep ourselves. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Advertise as BBT, because no connection with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: If you have got excess money, you can advertise. There is no need of keeping money. Spend. Rāmeśvara: Money will be excess after the Māyāpura Festival. Prabhupāda: That's right. Rāmeśvara: Between now and Māyāpura it's very tight. Prabhupāda: Very prestigious papers like Time, Reader's Digest. Reader's Digest is the highest circulation. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, in the world. Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Sunday New York Times has a big section just on books, and that's the most respected in the world, their books section and their book reviews. That is very prestigious. All the leading people read it. Prabhupāda: But wherever you advertise, it must be prominent. It must immediately come to the notice. You can spend little more. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, this advertising will also increase our college orders, because even college professors and librarians read papers. So when our salesmen go there, they'll say, "Oh, I saw your advertisement in the papers." Prabhupāda: On nice pages(?) you just give your... Another proposal was that, some New York or somewhere somebody is proposing to sell individually. Who was that? Jagadīśa: Encyclopedia? Prabhupāda: Like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: House to house. Prabhupāda: Who was speaking about that? You told me? Somebody told me. Jagadīśa: Girirāja, I think. *Rāmeśvara: It's a little difficult, because the way they sell encyclopedias is they leave all the books at one time, and then the person every month makes a monthly payment. So if he refuses... Once he reads the book and finds out that it is telling him to be Kṛṣṇa*-bhakta, he may stop sending his money. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And also it's becoming hard to enter these houses in America. In fact, door to door salesmen are having a difficult time now. Because of security reasons, they don't let any outside peddlars into the building. Prabhupāda: That is always, trespass. Their trespass law is very strict in USA. There are dogs, and there are revolver, and trespasser, if he is killed, there is no offense. Is it not? It is very dangerous. I know one incident in New York. Some yogi came. So he was... You know that? So I became very irritated. So I asked him, "Get him out immediately." So my men got him out. He went to the police and he said that he was assaulted and so on, complained. The police came and inquired. So there were so many inquiries. But I did not know... Then I said that "He came to me without invitation." "Oh!" Immediately he dismissed. "I did not ask him to come. He came to me and disturbed me." So immediately, "Oh..." He decided. He said, "Oh..." So that law is very strict. And that is very good. Nobody can come without invitation or engagement. Otherwise they trespass. Is it? Rāmeśvara: Sometimes they use this law against us. Prabhupāda: Acchā? Rāmeśvara: We're coming to these shopping centers to sell our books and they say, "We have not invited you. Please go away." It is called the right of the property owner to allow on his property whoever he wants. So these gigantic shopping centers invite the public to buy only from them, not from us. So they restrict us. Prabhupāda: They are not inviting us. Rāmeśvara: No. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's all private property. *Rāmeśvara: Our book*-selling is going on on the public property, like the airports. But the stores and the shopping centers are privately owned, so it's illegal. Sometimes our men will do it anyway, take a chance in disguise. *Prabhupāda: So they are taking risk for Kṛṣṇa. That is great service. Kṛṣṇārthe 'khila ceṣṭaḥ. That is one of the valuable service*-for Kṛṣṇa's sake, all kinds of dangerous position. Somebody's knocking. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll explain this to Rāmeśvara, and if he approves, then... Because now we have just finished hundred thousand Gītār Gāns... Prabhupāda: Anyway, it will be paid. Just wait. (hums) Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like to see some photographs of Bharadraja's work? I'll go get them. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Pālikā: What kind of dahl would you like today? Prabhupāda: You can make like yesterday. Pālikā: Also, I have brought (indistinct) from the bazaar. Prabhupāda: Hm. Pālikā: In which subji should I put? Prabhupāda: Put in the posta. But you must (mash?) take out the skin. Pālikā: Yes. *Rāmeśvara: These were taken just before I left Los Angeles. This is a figure of Kṛṣṇa from the rasa*-līlā being dressed in cloth. Prabhupāda: His face is like Acyutānanda. (Rāmeśvara chuckles) Acyutānanda's face is beautiful. *Rāmeśvara: This figure is going to be Lord Gadādhara in the exhibit of the Pañca*-tattva dancing at kīrtana. She is just beginning to make the form. Prabhupāda: So you have got any business? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: So let... Let me finish [break] ...but devotees of... Oh. Rāmeśvara: These two pictures show dolls being painted. Prabhupāda: Why not engage Govinda dāsī? Rāmeśvara: If she will come, she can be engaged in many ways. Prabhupāda: She is also very expert. Rāmeśvara: She doesn't like the weather in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Doesn't like? Why? What is wrong there? Los Angeles is very nice. I like Los Angeles. Rāmeśvara: Only the spring and summer. I think it's in her mind. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles is very nice. What is this? Rāmeśvara: This is going to be one of the demigods in one of the exhibits. The painting is very, very expert. I've seen some of the dolls that are painted. They look alive. Prabhupāda: Very good. Rāmeśvara: Even in the eyes there is a little moisture as if the eye is... Prabhupāda: Very natural. So I see the dolls... Intelligent boys, they can do it, educated, intelligent. Very good, nice. So many students are engaged... Rāmeśvara: This is like pottery. Spinning on the wheel, he is designing the ornaments for the crown. Each doll of the demigods has a different crown. That's how they make them, on a spinning wheel just like a potter. Prabhupāda: They are devising their own way. Eh? Rāmeśvara: Sometimes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. *Rāmeśvara: This is part of the Universal Form exhibit. This is Mahā*-Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Oh, lying down. Rāmeśvara: Very big. He's bigger than a human being. Prabhupāda: Acchā. Rāmeśvara: And this will be the Universal Form. He will have many heads and many arms. And with the controlling the lighting, His image will appear in mirrors on the ceiling and on the walls, so everywhere you look you'll see Him. *Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughs) All*-pervading. It is very, very good improvement, encouraging. People will enjoy this. Rāmeśvara: And He is lying on Śeṣa. This exhibit is so spectacular, this Universal Form. It is more impressive than anything, I think, in America, because at a certain point there is even a machine which makes different fragrances in the air. Prabhupāda: So you can invite this opposition cult to see what we are doing. "Why you are after us," ask, "like the barking dog? There is good use. It is the highest culture." Make some compromise: "Why you are after simply spoiling? Don't you want advancement in culture and knowledge? Why you are so envious?" Just try to bring the leaders, that "What is use? You also join. It is a culture. There is no need of repressing us. We are serious to introduce a new culture for the benefit of the whole nation. Why don't you study this? Do you mean to say we are publishing books only, all sentiment, brainwash, and people are purchasing?" Rāmeśvara: They cannot accuse us of brainwashing when we have so much artwork and publishing work. Prabhupāda: Yes. "We are giving culture, art, scientific knowledge. You are accusing. It is good for your nation. Think nationalwise what we are doing. We are not fools. They are also educated. They are coming from respectable family. Why you say that we have become befooled, brainwashed? We are not so fool that I shall be brainwashed by some Indian." Try to make compromise before them. Actually, this is a great culture. *Rāmeśvara: These are the heads for the Śeṣa*-naga of this Mahā-Viṣṇu exhibit. They are made from rubber and they have all the details. Prabhupāda: Acchā. How rubber you make mold? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: You do yourself? Rāmeśvara: They do, yes. Prabhupāda: So what is the benefit of rubber? Rāmeśvara: It has something to do with the curves. Prabhupāda: Oh. In clay, it cannot. Rāmeśvara: They started manufacturing it, at a time. That's what they used. This is a doll of Kṛṣṇa speaking to Arjuna on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra. Prabhupāda: Very good. Nobody can think it is doll. How many men are engaged? Rāmeśvara: I think thirty devotees. That includes all the carpenters and... Prabhupāda: And they are becoming expert so that in future many other also. Rāmeśvara: This is a doll of Lord Caitanya. That devotee is Ādideva. He was here, in India studying with Bharadrāja. *Prabhupāda: I simply see how the devotees are engaged in so nice occupation. This painting, this taking, thinking of Caitanya, thinking of Kṛṣṇa*-this is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is... Nobody can deny. When he's working in this way he cannot think of other way. That will elevate him, simply by thinking. Man-manā. He'll derive greatest benefit. He'll become devotee. He'll get liberation from this material world simply by doing that. It is so nice. So in all our centers have this doll exhibit. Rāmeśvara: This is Lord Nityānanda. Very blissful. *Prabhupāda: Nitāi guṇa mani āmāra nitāi*-guṇa mani, āmiya premera bandha vasala ayantu. Rāmeśvara: These little dolls are Gandharvas. There will be over two hundred of them in the Universal Form exhibit. Prabhupāda: Who is the girl? Rāmeśvara: That is one of the doll makers' wives. Prabhupāda: What are the small? Rāmeśvara: Those are the Gandharvas. Each Gandharva... There are hundreds of them. They have their own outfit, different colored dresses and different ornaments, all made by hand. Prabhupāda: So small? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Because there are hundreds of them. But in the mirrors there will be millions of them. Prabhupāda: Acchā. (laughs) Rāmeśvara: Filling the whole sky and all directions. Prabhupāda: Very good. So encourage them. Rāmeśvara: This is inside one of the exhibits. This is part of the wall and this is a scene of the phalanxes at Kurukṣetra, and then behind them and above, there is this painting, and it is like a curve. In the middle will be Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna on the chariot. *Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughs) Very nice. People will so much appreciate it. Yes. They've never seen. From artistic point of view, it should be rewarded by government. And they are prosecuting us. This... What injustice... So many young men, they're exhibiting their talents in this art, and they are trying to harass us. What is this government? Put this matter before this government, that "Just see, your lordships, we are presenting culture, religion, knowledge, philosophy, art, and they are trying to condemn us. Do you think it is all right?" Simply ask. "It was never known in this country. And it is worthy. We are the first*-class nation in the world, and we are still giving something more of our talent. Instead of encouraging government help, we have to suffer this harassment. Do you think it is justice?" Just put before him. Rāmeśvara: It is like you wrote in that letter to Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "They did not mind when the children were hippies, taking drugs, having prostitutes. But now that they have joined Hare Kṛṣṇa, now they are kidnapping you. They did not protest formerly when they were engaged in all sinful life. Now they are completely pure. Now they are complaining." Jagadīśa: Now their children are afraid of sinful life, and they think it's brainwashing. Rāmeśvara: This is a devotee making part of the armor for Arjuna. Each time they make an outfit, they do a very careful drawing. Then from the drawing, they make the actual equipment or armor. Prabhupāda: And how devotedly he is working. That is the..., that "I am..." How devotedly he is working. That will elevate him. He's very attentively serving Kṛṣṇa. This is advancement. Rāmeśvara: They are working, minimum, twelve hours daily just on the dolls. Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not become tired. Kṛṣṇa conscious work is so nice, nobody becomes tired. He wants to do more. Duralage hurahuri. (?) Competition. This is spiritual. Rāmeśvara: This is one devotee who is painting dolls of the demigods. Prabhupāda: Aiye, aiye. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these people come from Muscat. That's where I went last month. [break] (Hindi) Rāmeśvara: ...supervises all the work. Prabhupāda: Yes, he should be engaged for propaganda. Rāmeśvara: For every exhibit Bharadrāja has to make a complete drawing. Prabhupāda: His wife is also helping? Rāmeśvara: She is doing the sewing for the clothing. The whole show will be finished before Māyāpura, and Bharadrāja is coming for the festival. Then right after the festival we will go back to Los Angeles and have the grand opening. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Rāmeśvara: When it is finished, then we'll take color pictures and send them in case you're still in India. Prabhupāda: By the month of... Rāmeśvara: It could be April. The grand opening, I think... Prabhupāda: I may go there some time. From London to Los Angeles there is direct plane. Takes about ten hours, eh? Rāmeśvara: Ten hours at least. Los Angeles to New York is five and a half, and New York to London another five hours, six hours. Prabhupāda: Or in this way, about twelve hours, via... Rāmeśvara: Too long a flight, I think. It would be better... It's too long a flight. Prabhupāda: That directly from London to... That is the same? Rāmeśvara: Too long. Prabhupāda: Too long. Rāmeśvara: Usually stopover in New York. Prabhupāda: No, another northern flight from Paris and from London it goes directly to Los Angeles. Rāmeśvara: Yes, it's possible but it's very uncomfortable. Prabhupāda: (sic:) Unstoppage, eh? Rāmeśvara: Nonstop. I flew from London to Delhi nonstop. Prabhupāda: That is eight hours. Rāmeśvara: Eight hours. *Prabhupāda: Let them oppose. You do your duty. Introduce this Vedic culture in your country. It will be... In future they will appreciate. There will be history how Vedic culture was... And the whole nation will be benefited*-from material side. And spiritual side there will be..., what to speak of? These literatures, this art, this strength,(?) this philosophy... Everything wonderful. [break] Rāmeśvara: ...involved in some political activity, we must follow his example. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. There is no doubt about it. We shall follow strictly to politic, economy, sociology, philosophy, religion, art, culture, everything. So we are not only for Hare Kṛṣṇa. Of course, Hare Kṛṣṇa is ultimate. That is..., includes everything. But we should never say that politics is not our field. Why not? Kṛṣṇa took part. Kṛṣṇa instructs everything. Rāmeśvara: The whole war of Kurukṣetra was just so Kṛṣṇa's devotees... *Prabhupāda: Yes. It was designed by Kṛṣṇa. But the idea was to kill. "Call them all together here and kill them. Bas, finished, all the demons finished." This is Kṛṣṇa. "Instead of killing them separately, call them here and kill. Finished." Like slaughterhouse. It was a slaughterhouse for the demons. "Call them and kill them. Bas, finished." Nimitta*-mātraṁ bhava savya-sācin: "It is all my design. Even if you do not fight, they are not going back to their home. They must be killed." This is Kṛṣṇa's plan. "You simply take the credit. That's all. It is all My design. You are My devotee. I want to give you this credit. Otherwise without your help they are already killed." So... Kṛṣṇa... Paritrāṇāya... He has got two business. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. This is another side of His business. (end) *Arrival of BBT Manager-*-January 9, 1977, Bombay *Rāmeśvara: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Nama oṁ viṣṇu*-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya... (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: Jaya! Rāmeśvara Mahārāja! Rāmeśvara: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: I was just talking about you, that "When Rāmeśvara is coming? What is time?" Very good, early in the morning. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you look well. Are you feeling well? Prabhupāda: At the present moment I am feeling well because you are here. (laughing) Rāmeśvara: This is dakṣiṇā from Los Angeles temple. Prabhupāda: Yes, bring more money. (Hari-śauri laughs) [break] I am going to spend this money in huge advertisement propaganda. I have given him the idea. Because here in India we haven't got devotees pushing as in USA and America we have got our devotees. They are attacking and pushing. Here there is no such devotee. And therefore I have proposed huge, big advertisement in the paper. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Paper and billboards. Prabhupāda: Especially newspapers. I have given the instruction. You are here, and you can arrange, three. I am reading the matter also like this. Read it. It is very simple. *Rāmeśvara: "Read worldwide Hare Kṛṣṇa literatures and be happy. Books by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. 1) Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, Cantos 1-9, twenty-seven volumes, Rs..." (aside:) Not so many. Per volume. "Bhagavad-gītā As It Is; *Śrī Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, seventeen volumes; Teachings of Lord Caitanya; The Nectar of Devotion; Śrī Īśopaniṣad; Easy Journey to Other Planets; Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, the Topmost Yoga System; Kṛṣṇa, The Supreme Personality of Godhead, three volumes; Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers; and so on. Recommended by learned scholars and professors all over the world. Available for reading from all university, college and public libraries of the world, and can be purchased." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can give the name of few leading bookstores in each city. Prabhupāda: Not through bookstore. Only our... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, and you can give that Calcutta agent, Vrnda Book... That's all. Rāmeśvara: And for the books you have in Hindi you should write "available in Hindi." Prabhupāda: No, Hindi we shall advertise differently. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Hindi papers. Hari-śauri: Advertise in Hindi. Prabhupāda: Hindi, yes. And this is English. In this way I have given the idea. We'll make the space contract and ask them the concession, because it is charitable... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That we will get. Prabhupāda: Yes. In this way immediately arrange. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I can put one for next Wednesday's paper. Prabhupāda: First of all take the rate. Then when we shall begin, that we shall decide. So Rāmeśvara is there. He has got very good experience in everything. How do you like this idea? Rāmeśvara: It's excellent. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then it is final. (laughter) Do it. *Rāmeśvara: I think... What if we mentioned how many copies of Bhagavad*-gītā have been sold in the last year? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we can say "sold to date." I tell people over four million copies sold. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not required. We are selling all worldwide. That is there. Rāmeśvara: And also the American universities are using these books in their courses as required. Prabhupāda: That we have said, "Available for reading from university, public libraries all over the world." Jagadīśa: Before you said that we should put also a line that "These books are available in all major languages of the world." Prabhupāda: That is not very important. "All over the world" means it is understood in all other languages. Otherwise how they are reading? *Rāmeśvara: In Europe when men go to the libraries, sometimes they don't speak English. So they're already taking standing orders for the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam in French and other languages. Prabhupāda: So make this immediately. Rāmeśvara: This is the notice of the money we just sent to Bombay from Los Angeles, seventy thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: So now do the needful about this. And the invoice? You have sent the books? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So these books are there? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Now I have everything in stock. We have everything. Prabhupāda: And which we have not got stock you print here. Keep for sufficient stock, in this way. So I was asking last night that at least in Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, simply whatever collection is there, fifty percent print books and fifty percent spend for temple or for pushing on the books. No money available. Bas. Rāmeśvara: That is always the situation. (laughing) Prabhupāda: (laughs) As soon as there will be money, there will be headache and income tax, this tax, that tax. So keep always empty. Bas. Vigorously push, and whatever available, spend. Bas. Finished. How do you like? Rāmeśvara: That is always our policy. Prabhupāda: That's all. And if we have to take contribution, take ISKCON. They're free. But for Bhaktivedanta Trust there is no need of contribution. Then there will be exemption certificate required and so on. We don't want any contribution. If anyone wants to contribute, let him contribute to the ISKCON. They're tax free. And here there is no tax, no tax free. That's all. Print book and sell and spend. Follow this policy there and here also, and push these books. That is our main preaching. Somehow or other, it must go, from door to door, hand to hand. Then our preaching is successful. Anyone who will read, he'll get some benefit. That is sure, because such literatures are not available throughout the whole world. It is a new revolution to the people in general. Am I right or not? Rāmeśvara: Definitely. Prabhupāda: That's all. (laughs) Then do it now. And I shall spend all this money for advertisement. That's all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: One of the biggest bookstores in Bombay, International Book House, has arranged a whole window display of your books. Prabhupāda: That is useless. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Many people were seeing it. Prabhupāda: Useless. I know these men. But you can get some customers. That's all right. Do they purchase or simply display? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. They purchase also. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Rāmeśvara: Actually in Belgium the National Museum has also set up in their main window a display of your books. And that's very good for a museum, because they do not sell there, but they are considering it so important and scholarly that they are displaying them for the public to see. Prabhupāda: That is good recommendation, yes. If that museum is so important, so to keep our books there is prestigious. In Europe, America, it is going on nice. Now here we have to take advantage of these papers. So I have already given Jagadīśa the idea. Now you immediately put into effect. You keep that also with your papers, this format. Yes. Hari-śauri: Will there be an address on the advertisement for people to write to? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The Book Trust office. Prabhupāda: So you take your rest now. Then you shall come and go on talking. Rāmeśvara: I'm not actually tired. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's not tired. Rāmeśvara: I'm feeling completely rejuvenated just seeing you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Utsāhān. This kind of utsāhā required. Utsāhā means enthusiasm. Utsāhān dhairyāt. So did you write to Dr. Sukla for sending the translation? So do it enthusiastically. It is a new peaceful revolution throughout the whole world. What other news? Rāmeśvara: Actually it's not so peaceful in America. Prabhupāda: No? Rāmeśvara: In America there are some atheists who are organizing constantly to attack us. Prabhupāda: That is peaceful. That will bring peace. Rāmeśvara: Yes. I was seeing it. Because now it has become such a controversy that the biggest television and radio programs are begging us, "Come on my show and explain the issue, whether you are brainwashing." So we have been already invited to be on the biggest nationwide television programs, and we're on radio... Prabhupāda: And you are presenting nicely. Rāmeśvara: Usually what they do is they bring someone on the show to ask us questions, and this person is very demoniac. He distorts and... Prabhupāda: Why they should question? We shall explain. Rāmeśvara: Well, we get the opportunity to, but that's how they set it up. In other words, they want to see us defeated, but in the end they are always defeated. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is in our charge. Yes. They are afraid of their demonic civilization being killed by this movement. That is their... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fear. *Prabhupāda: Therefore they are combining together. The demons, without illicit sex, without intoxication, without meat*-eating, without gambling, their life is finished. So they are thinking, "How we shall live if this movement is allowed to make progress like epidemic?" And that is the idea behind. Rāmeśvara: We are always saying that "Actually we are not brainwashing; you are brainwashing. You are convincing the people there is no God." Prabhupāda: We are presenting God, His address, His father's name, His residence, everything. If you are intelligent, you can go back home, back to Godhead. If not, you may suffer. Others will go. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That example you gave of the dead husband... Prabhupāda gave an analogy, it is very good. To indicate who is being brainwashed. The example was a dead husband is calling his wife. That is very good example. Rāmeśvara: They're actually doing service because they are forcing all these newspapers... *Prabhupāda: That is... Hare Kṛṣṇa*-this name has become popular all over the... Rāmeśvara: Yes. (to Gopāla?) You have experience. (laughs) The learned people in America are very concerned that we are being... Prabhupāda: Harassed. Rāmeśvara: ...harassed, and they are organizing groups to defend us. In Harvard University... Prabhupāda: That is very good. Rāmeśvara: ...the biggest professors and theologians have organized now a nationwide committee to defend us. Prabhupāda: Very good. This is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Rāmeśvara: And also the lawyers and psychologists are also organizing in their own fields nationwide committees just to defend us. *Prabhupāda: It is so much mercy from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wanted all these things. Unless there is... Kṛṣṇa became important when He killed so many demons, not lying down on the lap of mother Yaśodā. And while He was on the lap of mother Yaśodā, from that day He began to kill. He began to kill. And there was attack. Therefore Kṛṣṇa became the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So even Kṛṣṇa was not exempted, what to speak of us. Prahlāda Mahārāja was not exempted. As soon as you speak of God, this opposition will come. Jesus Christ was crucified. So they are so kind they have not crucified me or my men. (laughs) Otherwise you have to expect all these things. Nityānanda Prabhu was personally injured. So these are the... Haridāsa Ṭhākura was beaten in twenty*-two bazaars. This task is like that. Rāmeśvara: They are getting everyone in America to ask the question, "What is Hare Kṛṣṇa?" Because of all their false propaganda, everyone is asking, "What is Hare Kṛṣṇa? What is Hare Kṛṣṇa?" Prabhupāda: And that is our triumph. They're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I read that even the New York Daily News took a poll to find out. They were asking every person what they think about Hare Kṛṣṇa. Usually they only take polls for very important issues. Rāmeśvara: Yes, but it was terrible. (laughter) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The poll? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And Dialectic Spiritualism is published? Rāmeśvara: This year, after the Māyāpura Festival. Hayagrīva hasn't finished working on it completely. Prabhupāda: How many pages it will be? Rāmeśvara: Two volumes. Prabhupāda: Two volumes? Rāmeśvara: Two volumes, eight hundred pages. Prabhupāda: Oh? So, big? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that Harikeśa's book? Jagadīśa: Śyāmasundara. *Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda explaining the different philosophies of the world. This was something that just appeared just before I left Los Angeles. This shows how they are fighting back. This a four*-page article... [break] ...as if it is a very nice thing. And they say in the article that the parents have to pay these professionals $25,000 just to steal a devotee. Prabhupāda: Heavy tax. Haṁsadūta: We don't pay them anything. They come to us. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are getting advertise, publicity, paying nothing. This is our profit. Rāmeśvara: We still have to work very hard to defeat them. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is necessary. You don't sleep. Never Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna that "I am your friend. I am God. You sleep here. (laughter) I'll do everything." No! "You must fight." That is wanted. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara: [Bg. 8.7] "You fight and remember Me. Then I'll do everything." This is an opportunity of remembering Kṛṣṇa always-"Kṛṣṇa, save us." [break] So what are these pictures? Against us? Rāmeśvara: Yes. This shows that if they kidnap you and they convince you to give up your belief in God, you will be very happy. You will have nice girlfriend. You will be very happy. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. This material world means this sex. That is happiness. And we are saying, "Don't enjoy this happiness like hogs." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. "This kind of happiness available in the hog's life, dog's life. Why you are anxious for this happiness?" This is our philosophy. Real happiness? Tapo divyam: just undergo some austerity for attaining Kṛṣṇa. This is our.... How they will understand it? Therefore they are thinking, "Unless there is brainwash, how this philosophy is being preached?" Just opposite. They are thinking, "This is happiness," and we are condemning, "This is happiness of the hogs." Actually that is.... Hog is also enjoying that sex without any discrimination whether it is mother or sister or daughter. That is going on. Sex must be there. It doesn't matter who is. This is the world's position, hog civilization. Why a person is condemned as hog, especially in India? He's our "sewer kavaca." Why? The hog has no discrimination of sex. No animal has got, especially this hog. You'll find a study, that one side, drinking the milk, and next, plies over him. Cannot reach. Still, hog wants.... Small kiddies for sex. That sex desire is so strong from the very beginning of.... And no sense that "It is my mother." Hari-śauri: Yes, I've seen that in Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nature's study gives the... And therefore Bhāgavata gives the example: "Don't work so hard simply for hog civilization." So if we use this word*-it is very, very harsh for the Western people-"It is the hog civilization," actually it is so. But you cannot say. Satyaṁ priyaṁ vada... Unless it is palatable, you cannot say straight. That is... They take it seriously that "You are criticizing our mode of life." Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Dr. Patel enters) Aiye, aiye, aiye. (Hindi-"Please come in") Dr. Patel: You're not going to walk upstairs? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not yet six. Dr. Patel: I did not go for a walk today. Prabhupāda: Oh. You want to go to Māgha Mela? Er... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Kumbhamela? Dr. Patel: See, the thing is I am prepared to come, but difficulty would be to come back. Prabhupāda: Why? Dr. Patel: I would not stay all the time that you are there. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can help him get a ticket, because we have a letter of introduction from a very big Central Railway officer for the chief man in Allahabad at the Central Railway. He got us the tickets. Prabhupāda: Or let us go by car. Dr. Patel: By car? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: It would take three days. Prabhupāda: Never mind. What is that? Dr. Patel: All right. I'll come with you. Prabhupāda: We shall enjoy. We shall stop somewhere and have picnic. I like that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Your car from Vṛndāvana is reaching there. (pause) Prabhupāda: So work very vigorously. Hari-śauri: I can record that. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] Rāmeśvara: I can show you this later. This is a copy of a newsletter that we have intercepted from the enemy camp. We have our newsletter, and they also have their newsletter. So we have gotten ourselves on their mailing list, so we can find out all their strategy. Prabhupāda: Yes. When there is fight these things are studied. (Hindi) When there is fight there is no question of immoral or moral. "We must get victory," that's all. Kṛṣṇa did it. Kṛṣṇa asked... Hari-śauri: According to this, they've made it legal, deprogramming. They're making it legal that they can hold a person by force until they break him mentally. Jagadīśa: Rāmeśvara? Are there many of our devotees who've been deprogrammed, or are they mostly other groups? Rāmeśvara: Mostly the others. Śrīla Prabhupāda, the business of the Book Trust has gotten very big. So the warehouse in Los Angeles has become too small. So we have gotten a new warehouse. Prabhupāda: We have got a warehouse like Howrah Station. Rāmeśvara: This is a picture of the new building. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Looks very nice. Rāmeśvara: It's not yet completed. They are building it just for us. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) *Rāmeśvara: This is a picture of the side of the building. This truck holds 20,000 copies of Bhagavad*-gītā. It's being unloaded into the warehouse. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Rāmeśvara: These are pictures of the inside as we are beginning to fill it up with books. Prabhupāda: It is not yet filled up. Rāmeśvara: It will be, very soon. This is part of it. We just moved in as I was leaving for India, so I had them shoot these pictures very quickly. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Rāmeśvara: And the former warehouse... We now need more space for the dioramas. We're going to start manufacturing them for all the temples. So we're going to use the former warehouse, that you once visited, for Bharadrāja. He needs that much space because he's going to be making the dolls, then making a mold. Then once you have the mold, you can mass produce. Prabhupāda: So that we can show in every center. Rāmeśvara: Yes. They'll make them out of a different substance so that they can be shipped, without breaking, all over the world. Prabhupāda: What is the material? Rāmeśvara: The original doll will be straw and clay. But then for mass production it will be fiberglass. Prabhupāda: Fiberglass. Rāmeśvara: Very hard and light. Not so heavy. Prabhupāda: It is not... What is called? Burn? Fire? Inflammable? Rāmeśvara: No, it is fireproof. Prabhupāda: Oh. That's all right. Then it is all right. Rāmeśvara: It will be permanent. Even if you brush into it, it will not break. Very durable. Prabhupāda: All right. You take rest. We shall go a little... (everyone leaves room) [break] Hari-śauri: They've actually legalized it. There's one group, they're claiming that by deprogramming people they give him freedom of thought. *Prabhupāda: But you are... By deprogramming... They are thinking of Kṛṣṇa. You are checking. Where is the freedom of thought? Then you are illegal. They want to think of Kṛṣṇa, and you are checking. Then who is illegal? We have to put in that way, in their word, that "Then you have no right to check him about thinking of Kṛṣṇa." This will be our argument. Yes. How you can check? Let him think of Kṛṣṇa freely, because Kṛṣṇa wants. Then you have to take Bhagavad*-gītā as illegal. Hari-śauri: Yeah, if they condemn the whole thing, they have to condemn the whole, entire Hindu religion. Prabhupāda: That's it. We have to fight in that way. Hari-śauri: This is really separating us from these other cults because most of these other cults, they have no defense because their whole thing is a concoction. But for ourselves, we're actually practicing a standard way of worship, and we have so many testimonials from actual Hindus themselves. Prabhupāda: No, outside scholars... Hari-śauri: And from all the scholars and professors and everything. Prabhupāda: "It is bona fide thinking and you are checking." *Hari-śauri: What complicates it is they get ex*-cult members to come and testify that "Yes, I was psychologically kidnapped. I was made into a robot just to think of God." Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: So the whole thing's become a very... Prabhupāda: We have to defend in our way. (end) *Morning Darçanaand Room Conversation Ramkrishna Bajaj and friends-*-January 9, 1977, Bombay Girirāja: This is Mr. Sharma, the head technician at the airport, radar. *Prabhupāda: When I went to your MIT, I challenged that "Where is that technological department where a dead man can be brought into life?" It was interesting speech. The students gathered. This body is mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gītā as machine. Do you know that? This body is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā as machine. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. Guest (1) (Indian man): There's no soul in it. *Prabhupāda: That is the fact, we know. We know that is a fact, that... My point is that the modern age, they are very much proud of advanced technology. So where is that knowledge? And why people do not tax their brains to get this knowledge? This is very important subject matter. But where is that knowledge? And why they do not try to do it? We get information from the Supreme Personality of Godhead that this jīva, the driver... Not driver. The passenger. We are passenger, and driver is God, and machine made by material energy, māyā... Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. The similarity is there. Just like motorcar is manufactured by somebody and the passenger is there and the driver is there, similarly, this is a machine made by māyā. I am the passenger, and God is driver. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati bhrāmāyan [Bg. 18.61]. Bhrāmāyan, the driver, the passenger of the owner, he is asking, "Mr. Driver, you go this way." So He's driving. Just like the same*-Arjuna is asking Kṛṣṇa, senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me 'cyuta: [Bg. 1.21] "Just between these two parties of soldiers, please keep my chariot." The same thing. The chariot driver, He is the Supersoul. In this body there are two souls. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. That he's also kṣetrajñā. Kṣetra is this body, and kṣetrajñā one knows, this body.... Just like I know it is my finger. I never say, "I finger." It is my finger. So similarly, the driver also can say, "It is my car," and the proprietor also can say. So two persons, one driver and one passenger, or the proprietor.... And the body is machine. The subjects are there. Why you do not try to understand the subject matter? Then where is your advancement? That is my challenge. Why you are so much proud of your advancement of knowledge. What is this knowledge? Tell me. You are young man. I am giving you the challenge. Either you admit that you are not advanced or make advancement. Why you set aside this difficult subject matter and become proud by making a small machine that you are advanced? Where is your advancement? (Hindi) He is Mr. Bajaj, the proprietor of the Bajaj Electricity. Guest (2) (Indian man): Mahārāja, in the context of the universe, the technological and scientific advancement is very, very insignificant. But as far as human beings are concerned, they feel that they have achieved great deal. Prabhupāda: Why? You cannot give life. Guest (2): Because there is a change from the past. So they feel that there is a difference. But that is at a very low level... Prabhupāda: That is my point, that you are becoming so much proud of your technological..., but what you have done? Guest (2): It is very insignificant. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is my point. Why you become falsely proud that you have done so advancement that you don't care for God, you don't care for the original manufacturer? That is your fault. Guest (2): The other day there was a doctor who had come from America for transplantation of kidney, and he has given a lecture in the Rotary Club. I was there. Now they give so much importance to the person who is able to transplant kidney from one body to the other, but how about the whole human being or the universe which has been created by God? Now, this is just a very, very insignificant thing which is already there which is just transplanted. But they feel so happy and proud. Prabhupāda: That is my point, falsely proud. Guest (2): And Mahārāja, are they able to increase the life by a single moment? Prabhupāda: They cannot. Guest (2): They say they have achieved so much. Are they able to increase it by even a single moment? Prabhupāda: No. This breathing is given there, that "You must breathe so many million times. Bas, finished." Just like you wind the watch. It will run or go round so many times. As soon as the finish, then stop. Guest (3) (Indian man): Unwound, it is finished. Prabhupāda: The energy is limited. So by the yogic process they increase because they stop breathing. Breathing is limited. Just like you have got bank balance, two hundred thousand. If you don't spend, then it remains Guest (3): But you got to breathe. You can't stop breathing. Prabhupāda: No, no, by yogic process, you can stop breathing. Guest (3): Stop breathing or lengthen it? *Prabhupāda: Stop breathing means you don't spend. You have got a limited breathing period. By yogic process, you stop breathing, but you remain. That is mystic yoga. So similarly, you can simply increase your life by not using the breathing process. That is praṇāyāma. That is praṇāyāma. So... But you cannot exceed the limit. That is not possible. (Hindi) You don't keep hygienic life. (Hindi) You infect. That is your fault. (Hindi) To live ordinarily healthy life, that is... But if you transgress the hygienic principle, if you transgress the law of nature, you must suffer. Similarly, we are suffering in this material world*-the covering is there-because we wanted to transgress the laws of God. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare. When we forget our relationship with Kṛṣṇa, that "Kṛṣṇa is the original master, and I am the servant," as soon as you forget this relationship, this is contamination, immediately. Everyone is trying to become another Kṛṣṇa. This is struggle. Here in this material world you'll find everyone is trying to become very, very big-big leader, big politician, big businessman, big, big, big. But he is not big. That is the disease. He is not big, and he's trying to become big. Guest (3): This Khorana has put out one (gene?), and if it keeps growing, it will really havoc with artificial development. Prabhupāda: What is that? Girirāja: He says Dr. Khorana, he has made a gene. Prabhupāda: Gene? Guest (2): Living cell. Prabhupāda: What it is? Girirāja: Yes, they take it that the hereditary qualities that a person inherits is determined by these genes. So now they're thinking that if they can control the genes, they can create their own type of human being according to their own... *Prabhupāda: They can't. That, this nonsense speaking, is going on throughout the history, but they'll never be able. That is the fact. "We are trying. We shall do in future"*-these things are going on. But this is all stories. We don't believe in these nonsense things. They'll never be happy. That is not possible. Therefore I challenged your technology that "Where is that department? Do it!" First of all do it. Suppose if a man is in business. He may say that "I am trying to become a millionaire." But he cannot say that "I am millionaire." So the so-called scientist, "Yes, we are trying." You are trying, that's all right. But when you become, then you call scientist. There is no possibility, and because you are trying I have to accept you are scientist? Recently in California University one professor came. He has gained the Nobel Prize, Chemical Evolution. They are trying to prove that life is generated by chemical evolution. So in that meeting I had my one student. He's Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara. He's also big chemist. So he knows. He talks with me. He has got the idea. He has written one book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. So he challenged that "Suppose if I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" The answer-"That I cannot say." Why he talks nonsense? He is theorizing that life is made of chemicals, but if you give the chemicals, why you cannot make life? When I was in South Africa... Where is that? Pretoria or something? There are many factories for chicken killing. Chicken incubator. So one of the students, worker there, I said, "Suppose this is a chicken factory. So take one egg and analyze the chemicals. There is some white substance, yellow substance. It is covered with some cell. You can do it, and put that in the incubator and get a chicken. Why don't you do that?" The rascal could not answer. "Don't talk of big, big life. Make a chicken." And this rascal cannot do that, and still, they'll talk big, big words. What do you think? Are they not rascals? These rascals they are talking big, big words. First of all prove. Make one egg. Then talk of big, big brain. Make one egg. It is... Everyone can see. There is some white chemicals and some yellow chemicals, and it is covered, and it... You analyze and combine the chemical in the same way and put it in the incubator and get one chicken. Why? You are technologist. Say why they cannot do it. And when they cannot do it, why they talk so big, big word, mislead others and mislead himself? Guest (4) (Indian man): No, they feel so proud because... Prabhupāda: Foolish. Guest (4): ...God's creation is so huge and vast and unfathomable. If they are able to unravel even a small part of it which was not known to human beings beforehand. So they are so proud. They don't say that they can do what God can do. *Prabhupāda: No, it is known. It is known. Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ: [Bg. 15.7] "This life is my part and parcel." As soon as you study what is this life, you understand Kṛṣṇa, quality, what is Kṛṣṇa. So here is the hint, that Kṛṣṇa said mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. So it is very small particle. That is also mentioned in the śāstra: Guest (4): I don't know. I've never given very serious thought considering and... Prabhupāda: Well, these are not the subject matter for serious thought? Do you think? You are under the grip of the laws of material nature. Do you admit or not? Guest (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: Then why you should be under the grip of material nature? And if there is way, why should you not take? Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etaṁ taranti te. Guest (2): Our analysis... *Prabhupāda: Analysis... (Hindi) Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So why you are trying to get better position? That should be the endeavor, that we may get better position. *Guest (2): Sat*-saṅga. *Prabhupāda: Sat*-saṅga, satāṁ prasaṅgāt. The sat-saṅga... We know that word only, but if we don't take advantage, then what is meaning? *Guest (5) (Indian man): Execution part is more important of the sat*-saṅga. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, sat*-saṅga means sat. Sat means which is true and not contaminated. That is sat. Oṁ tat sat. So sat-saṅga means to associate with spiritual knowledge. That is sat. Guest (5): And execution of the discourse. *Prabhupāda: Well, saṅga means execution. When you associate with medical association or sharebrokers' association, simply go there and sit down is not your business. You have to do something. You have to do something. Sat*-saṅga means that. Tad-yoṣanāt aśu apavarga-vartmani. Sat-saṅga means you have to take the knowledge and use it for practical purpose. That is sat-saṅga. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to give the sat-saṅga, opening centers all over the world. If people take advantage of it they'll be benefited. But if he is ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā, then it is very unfortunate. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. This is Kali-yuga. The leaders also do not associate with sat, and they create their own imagination. Sat, oṁ tat sat. Bhagavān is the supreme sat. So they do not care for Bhagavān, so there is no sat-saṅga. Asat-saṅga. Guest (6) (Indian man): Asato mā sama grad? You said, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Sad gamaya. Guest (6): So the translation of it? Prabhupāda: Sad means "Try to come to the transcendental platform, sat, and don't remain in this asat." Asat means which is temporary. Guest (6): And tamasi mā jyotir gamaya. Prabhupāda: Ah! Tamasa... "Don't remain in the darkness; *come to the light." So this is the Vedic injunction. But we don't take advantage of the instruction. We think that "If I can make one table from a ordinary wooden plank, that is advancement." This is technology. This nice polished table is a transformation of the crude wooden plank. So if a crude wooden plank is transferred into nice table, we see: "Oh, this is advancement." What is actual benefit? I can do without this table. But we have taken: "This is advancement. Transforming the form of an element into another, that is advancement." So asate vilāsa. This is asat, this wood, either in crude form or in transferred form. So I am taking credit because a crude wood has been turned into a table. So that is my vilāsa. So sat saṅga chāḍi kāinu asate vilāsa. So I am now bound up. I can become a very nice carpenter. Does it mean that I am self*-realized? If you have learned the art of turning crude wood into a table, nice table, you may get the credit of becoming a nice carpenter; *that does not mean you are self*-realized. They are taking credit of this turning crude wood into nice table, and they're thinking that "Our life is successful." This is going on. And the real technology, that "I am not this body; *I have been put into this condition, and I am transmigrating from one body to another"*-there is no such knowledge. For the temporary.... [break] ...temporary thing, flickering thing, like children. Children is very busy on the beach, making sand palaces, and he's very happy. So our position is like that. But we should be intelligent enough that "There is our real life, permanent life, not this temporary life," that "This life is temporary. There is another life." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. "This śarīra is not..." Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. So many things.... The Bhagavad-gītā is full of information, but we don't take advantage. We are so unfortunate. And it is our country. This is Indian culture. We have given up this. (Hindi) Gandhiji, he was supposed to be a great student of Bhagavad-gītā. And the such a big āśrama, Sevagrama. Where is Bhagavad-gītā arcana? Boliye. *Guest (7) (Indian man): Bhagavad*-gītā is a way of life... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (7): And is what has to be followed by those who believe in it. *Prabhupāda: Believe or not believe, that is another thing. But if you want to live worthy, then you have to study Bhagavad*-gītā. You believe... Just like somebody believes or not believes in dehāntara, but nature's course will go on. Young man thinks "I'll remain young. I shall not become old man." He may believe like that, but he has to become old man. That is nature's law. So there is no question of "believe" or "not believe." If you believe, then you are benefited; *if you don't believe, you go to hell. It is not the question of belief. I was speaking in South Africa in a university. So one gentleman, Arya-samāji said... When I was explaining tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, so he objected that "Why you bring Hindu belief?" "And, nonsense, it is Hindu belief?" It is said that kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā: one boy is becoming young man. Is this for Hindu? It is not for the Muslim? And he said "Hindu belief." Such a fool he is. He said, "It is Hindu belief." Kṛṣṇa is giving this example. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam [Bg. 2.13]. Kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. So does it mean that Hindus only from kaumāra become yuvaka, and from yuvaka to old man, and the Muslims, they do not? It is science! You believe or not believe. If you don't take the fact, then your life is missing. What is the question? Two plus two equal to four*-it is not Hindu calculation, Muslim calculation or Christian calculation. You cannot say that "No, according to our Muslim calculation, two plus two equal to five." Two plus two is always four, either for a Hindu or Muslim or Christian. So whatever is spoken in the Bhagavad-gītā, that is for understanding of the human society. Why do you take: "It is Hindu belief. It is Indian belief"? It is science. That is our misfortune, that a science we are accepting as a kind of belief, faith. And that we are neglecting. That is our misfortune. Guest (4): We are the victims of the British Empire who ruled us. Prabhupāda: Huh? No, you are victims of yourself. Why...? British is not here now. Guest (8) (Indian man): We are indoctrined. Prabhupāda: British is not here now. Guest (8): No, they have indoctrined such a philosophy. Guest (2): But what was there before British came? This is human weakness of our own. *Prabhupāda: It is... You... You have been taught that Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary person, maybe little more in knowledge. That you are taking like that. Kūpa-maṇḍuka-nyāya. Kūpa-maṇḍa, the toad in the well, he is informed, "Oh, I have seen one Atlantic Ocean." So he is thinking "Atlantic Ocean may be.... This well is three feet. It may be four feet. Or five. Come on, ten." These rascals are thinking like that-avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā [Bg. 9.11]*-that "Kṛṣṇa may be more intelligent by one feet or two feet. Let us compromise-ten feet." This is going on. And Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: [Bg. 7.7] "I am the Supreme." They won't believe. They'll manufacture their ideas. This is going on. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. They won't believe that. And still, they'll declare, "I am student of Bhagavad-gītā." They won't believe a word of Kṛṣṇa, and they'll say, "I am student of Bhagavad-gītā." This is going on. This is our position. In India everyone says, "I have read Bhagavad-gītā three hundred times," but he does not know even a word. So this should be stopped. If we want to advance actually, you take every word of Bhagavad-gītā and try to apply in life. Then everyone will be happy. That is a fact. The instruction is there. There is no difficulty to understand. There is no question of interpretation. Simply take it as it is and try to apply it in life-you'll be happy. And your human life will be successful. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Up to this human form of life, we have passed through so many evolutionary process, but if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then, after leaving this body, no more material body. Indian man: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Yes, sahaja, this is sahaja. You are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Sahaja. Sahaja means you are born along with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is neither born, neither you are born. Sahaja, this word, means saha ja, "along with born." So you are part and parcel. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. When I was born the finger was also born. This is saha*-ja. The finger was not separately born. When I was born, the finger was born. So similarly, so long God is there, I am also there. So God is eternal; I am also eternal. You understand this? Then why you are changing bodies? And that is knowledge. Guest (9) (Indian man): No, why do we at all enter into this circle? Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. You want to be a separate Kṛṣṇa. That is your ambition. Guest (9): Initial thing is that. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is initial. A servant, big man's servant... That is natural, that "If I would have become the master." So a servant, if he wants to become the master, that is artificial. A servant remains a servant*-he is happy. And as soon as he tries artificially to become the master, that is the beginning of distress. So we are eternal servant of God. As soon as we try to become God, that is the beginning of our suffering. Indian man: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) The starting is there. Icchā*-dveṣa-samutthena sarge yānti parantapa [Bg. 7.27]. (Hindi) Kṛṣṇa bhūliyā jīva bhoga vāñchā kare, pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare. As soon as you desire like this, that "I shall become God," so immediately there is māyā. That is māyā. So when you are entangled in māyā, then there is question of mukti. The mukti means muktir hitvā 'nyathā rūpaṁ svarūpena avasthitiḥ. This is mukti. Mukti means when we are acting differently. That is my condition. That is my bondage. And when I act according to my original position, that is mukti. So everyone is acting here to become master. So there is no question of mukti. As soon as you understand that "My real position is I am servant of God, so let me act as serv..."-then it is mukti. Hitvā 'nyathā rūpam. At the present moment we are trying to act as master. So you give it down, up. Act as servant. Then you are mukta. Therefore a bhakta is mukta. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. Māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicareṇa-bhakti-yogena sevate [Bg. 14.26]. Anyone who is engaged as bhakta, he is mukta. All are conditioned. So if you become bhakta, if you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, immediately mukti, instantly. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo [Bg. 18.66]. You are conditioned, you are bound up on account of your sinful activities. So Kṛṣṇa says, "I'll give you relief from all the reaction of sinful activity. You surrender." So mukti means one second. You surrender to Kṛṣṇa. It takes one second. But that is very difficult. That requires many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births of suffering, when he comes to the knowledge that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. Why I am trying to become master?" that is jñānavān. And then he surrenders to.... Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā [Bg. 7.19]. That is mahātmā. It takes one second. Guest (10) (Indian man): Prabhupāda, surrender, sar..., word, if you can give us a full explanation of the word surrender. What's the meaning of surrender and how one should do it? Basis of surrender. Prabhupāda: Surrender, this is surrender, that... First of all, why you surrender? You must know it perfectly well that "Kṛṣṇa is master; *I am servant." Otherwise there is no question of surrender. Then you have to believe that "Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. So now I have surrendered. I have no more fear. Kṛṣṇa will give me protection." To believe firmly... "Kṛṣṇa is all powerful. Kṛṣṇa is my master. He is not a fakir, that He's talking nonsense." We have to believe that. This is surrender. If you think, "Kṛṣṇa is another fakir like me. He's talking nonsense," then that is not surrender. You have to believe that. That is explained in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, that śraddhā śabde viśvāsa niścaya. This is śraddhā. Sraddha is the beginning. That śraddhā means when you firmly believe in Kṛṣṇa: "Yes, He'll give me protection." That is surrender. Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. When you come to this stage, firmly believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa, that is surrender. First of all, you have to check yourself whether you firmly believe in the words of God. If you don't believe, there is no question of surrender. Then you remain where you are. This is firm belief: "Kṛṣṇa says that He will give me protection. So let me surrender. I have surrendered to māyā. I have not become happy. So why not surrender to Kṛṣṇa?" This is intelligence. You are not free. Then why you are declaring yourself as free? This is your disease. So intelligent means that I have no freedom actually. I am acting under the dictation of my senses. I am servant of my senses. So why not become servant of Kṛṣṇa? This is intelligent. Everyone is acting under senses, order of the senses. Kāmādinām kathidhā na kathidā palitā durni-deśaḥ. Even I don't want to do it, something wrong, but my senses are dictating, so "All right, let me do it." So we are... I am servant of the senses. My position is twofold. Either I become the servant of the senses or I become servant of Kṛṣṇa. My position is the same. Simply I have to change it. Guest (10): How to run away from the senses? I, being a servant of the senses, how to run away from the senses? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are servant. That is gosvāmī. That is svāmī, gosvāmī. Svāmī means when he's no longer servant of the senses, a master of the senses. That is svāmī. Guest (10): How to come to that position? *Prabhupāda: That requires education, training. You have become a lawyer not in one day. You have been trained up. Then you are lawyer. Similarly, everyone has to be trained up how to become perfect servant, but he must agree in the beginning that "Now I shall become servant of Kṛṣṇa." Then everything is there. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu*-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ tataḥ athāsaktiḥ tato bhavaḥ [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. These are the different stages. Ādau śraddhā: "Yes. Now Kṛṣṇa says, 'You surrender.' I'll surrender. I believe in this, firmly believe." Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya. This śraddhā means when you firmly believe that "Kṛṣṇa will give me all protection if I surrender." And that is the beginning of śraddhā. Guest (10): Faith. Firm faith. *Prabhupāda: Faith. Yes. Faith means firm faith. Faith does not mean... Anyway, ādau śraddhā. This śraddhā, if we increase this śraddhā, you have to associate with sādhu.. And who is sādhu? Bhajate mām ananya*-bhāk sādhur eva samantavyaḥ. He is sādhu, who is simply engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. He is sādhu. Api cet sudurācāraḥ: "Even though you find there is some discrepancies in his character, because he is fully engaged in My service, he is sādhu." Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ [Bg. 9.30]. If he has got other engagement, he is not sādhu. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam: [Brs. 1.1.11] "Other engagement zero." That is sādhu. The sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. You have to associate with such sādhus who are cent percent engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Ādau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅgaḥ tato bhajana-kriyā. If you mix with the sādhu, then you'll learn the activities. Sādhu-mārgānugamanam. The sādhus are rising early in the morning; *they are attending maṅgala ārati, they are reading Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, then dressing the Deity and having ārati and so on, so on, so on. This is called bhajana-kriyā. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt: then all these material activities will stop. Because if you are engaged in spiritual act..., where is your time for material activities, for drinking wine and eating meat and going to the restaurant and...? No time. These boys, although they are trained up from childhood how to eat meat, how to drink, but now they have no time. They never ask me, "Swamiji, give me one rupee. I shall go to the cinema." Never. They have no time. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, all anarthas finished. These are the stages. Then his life becomes of devotion. Athāsaktiḥ niṣṭhā: "Yes, I shall stick to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Tato niṣṭhā ruciḥ. Ruciḥ means taste. Unless they have got taste, why they should remain with me? They are not coming from poor family. His father is a big lawyer. You know? Yes. So why he is living with me? He has got taste, rucis. Tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ, athāsaktiḥ. Asaktiḥ, attachment. Whenever I am there, they are coming. Asaktiḥ. Tato bhāvaḥ. "Oh, I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. I have to do this." These are the different stages. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ. These are the different stages, kramaḥ. Kramaḥ means gradual evolution. So you have to take that gradual evolution. But it will be done if you remain with the associate. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. They are giving this opportunity. Come here in our association and learn the art. I have seen in Bombay. The other day I went to a gentleman's apartment. He is.... The gentleman is earning two thousand, and the wife is earning seven hundred. But they are living in an apartment of this size. Within this, there is bedroom, and there is kitchen, and there is toilet, and everything is there. And if we say people, "Please come here. Take a room like this and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they'll not come. They'll prefer to remain in that tiny apartment. Am I right or not? Manda-bhāgyā. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has declared, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kono bhāgyavān jīva. They are rotting or rotating within this universe in different species of life. But if by chance he becomes fortunate, then take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (10): What's the difference between grace and mercy? *Prabhupāda: Grace means he'll willingly give you mercy, and mercy means you ask for mercy. Kṛpa-siddha. Sādhana-siddha and kṛpa-siddha. You are trying to earn one lakh of rupees*-that is sādhana. But if somebody is gracious he can give you: "Take one lakh of rupees. Don't work hard." That is grace. That is kṛpa. You are ambitious for one lakh of rupees or somebody graciously give you: "All right, take." There are many persons. So that is grace. Otherwise, you earn by your hard labor. That is sādhana. Similarly, by association, by sādhana-bhakti, you attain perfection, and by grace also, you can attain perfection. Two ways. So those who are kṛpa-siddha, they are more fortunate. (Hindi) Preach this Bhagavad-gītā as it is. People will be benefited. You'll be benefited. Don't make unnecessary interpretation, misguide others and spoil your own life. That is very unfortunate. What is the difficulty to accept Bhagavad-gītā? There is no difficulty. Unfortunately we interpret in different way and take it other way. So our little attempt is to spread Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and whatever it may be, it is being accepted in the Western countries. Not by all. But the people in general, now the... Feeling the weight, they have now began opposing. Indian man: Have seen the new light. Prabhupāda: Yes. They're opposing me very vigorously in America. Indian man: And that is a good sign. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our victory, when there is opposition, and that is our victory. In spite of opposition, we are selling our books in large quantity. Yes. Large quantity. What is the one week sale that? Eighteen lakhs or something like... Girirāja: In one week, the books, total of books, was seven lakhs books in one week. Indian man: In one week? That would be hundred thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: No, no. More than. Eh? Seven lakhs? Guest (11) (Indian man): But mostly they are in America. Also in that number in Japan? Prabhupāda: No, America. And opposition is also in America. No, Europe and America, they are taking. Guest (10): Opposition is natural. Because you are converting their churches into temples. *Prabhupāda: No, there are many... First thing is that my students are advised, "No illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication up to the point of smoking cigarette and drinking tea, and no gambling." But this is their life. How they can give up this? That is... It is a shock. Therefore they say, "brainwashing," that "How a gentleman can give up all these things?" Many... No many. A few of my students, they left. They said that "Swamiji is denying the primary necessities of life." They left. They could not tolerate even. So I do not make any compromise. That you want to become my student you have to give up these things. So the responsible parents, they are appreciating that "My son is now purified." But some of them, there are... Guest (2): They feel that you are kidnapping their children. (laughs) Prabhupāda: And therefore they are kidnapping. His father, mother came in Calcutta. His mother asked, "Swamiji, please return my son." And "Take your son." Guest (2): He? Prabhupāda: "Return my son." And "Take your son." And then he was asked, and he was silent. So mother began to cry. So I promised that "I shall send your son. He'll go. Don't bother." His father, mother came. And many father, mother come to give me thanks, "Swamiji, it is great fortune of our country that you have come." Guest (10): Similar instance about a man swami also, Parsee boy who is now in Hyderabad. Girirāja: Mahāṁsa. Prabhupāda: Her (His) said, mother in the beginning she opposed. Yes, she is happy now. Guest (10): She wants to meet you, Prabhupāda. Can I bring her tomorrow? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Guest (2): You are going to Kumbha Mela tomorrow? *Prabhupāda: Day after. So our movement is genuine. Now it is up to you to help this movement. And there is no concoction. From... Sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ [Bg. 4.3]. As Kṛṣṇa said five thousand years ago, yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ, so we are also presenting that purātanaḥ. This philosophy is not new. Purātanaḥ. So we have nothing to tax our brain to manufacture something new. So people give me credit: "Swamiji, you have done wonderful, wonderful." I do not know magic. But I am presenting purātanaḥ, that's all, no adulteration. If there is any credit, the credit is this*-yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. Guest (4): Purātanaḥ and Śāśvata, Prabhupāda: Purātanaḥ means śāśvata. Yes. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purātanaḥ. So the sun is purātanaḥ. The sun is purātanaḥ, but the shining is the same. And similarly if we present the purātanaḥ yoga, then it is effective. Then it is effective. Guest (3): Swamiji, I wanted to know the importance of Kumbha Mela. Prabhupāda: This is the assembly of great saintly persons. That's all. Guest (3): No, if we people go there at Kumbha Mela time, is it good? Prabhupāda: Is it not good if so many saintly persons will come? The atmosphere is so nice. Guest (3): So many people accumulate. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only... Not people, but saintly persons. Yes. They have actually executed bhajana, sādhana. Brahmeti paramātmeti. Maybe somebody is brahmavādī, somebody paramātmavādī, somebody bhaktas, but they're transcendental. They're not materialistic persons. So you get their association sādhu*-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. The Sādhu-saṅga is essential. And that is our civilization. Sādhu-saṅga. Guest (11): So many people come with one wish and the whole atmosphere is charged... *Prabhupāda: Yes, spiritual... Sādhu*-saṅga, (Hindi). *Guest (2): Sādhu*-saṅga, of course, is very important. Getting to take a dip in Ganges at that, during this period, has that got any particular significance apart from sādhu-saṅga? Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. At least your faith is increased. With faith you take a dip. Faith cure. And Ganges herself is purifying. Guest (2): No. Is there special significance during this period? That is all the time. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... The significance is sādhu*-saṅga, purification. Our Vedic principle is: whatever is enjoined in the Vedas, we should accept it without any argument. That is Vedic injunction. This example we give generally: just like śaṅkha. Śaṅkha is the bone of an animal. So according to Vedic system, if you touch the bone of an animal, dead body animal, then you have to take bath immediately. But the śaṅkha is pure. Now, you cannot argue that "It is the bone of an animal. You say one place that 'Bone of animal is impure. You have to take bath; you have touched it,' and this śaṅkha is in their Deity worship? It is contradictory." But because it is stated in the Vedas, you have to accept. This is Vedic injunction. You cannot argue. There is no question of arguing. Just like cow dung is the stool of an animal. Even if we touch my own stool, I take bath. But cow dung, it is said, it is pure. If there is anywhere impure, you smear the cow dung; it will be pure. Now, you can argue that "It is stool of an animal. How it becomes pure?" This argument will not... So Vedic knowledge means don't argue. You have to accept it. Acintyaḥ khalu ye bhava na tas tarkena yojayet. Things... There are many things which is beyond your perception, so you have to accept the Vedic injunction. Then you are right. So if the Vedic injunction is: "In such and such moment you take a bath in the Ganges; *you become purified," you take it. There is no question of argument. That is faith. Now faith must be there. Vedo*-praṇihito dharmaḥ. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Everything is there. Can you find out this verse from the Sixth Canto? Jagadīśa: I know the verse. *Prabhupāda: Sixth Canto, First Part. Veda*-praṇihito dhar... Yamarāja's instruction. Er, the Yamadutas explain what is dharma, veda-praṇihito dharmaḥ. Where you found the page? (?) Pradyumna: Pradyumna: "The Yamadūtas replied: That which is prescribed in the *Vedas* constitutes dharma, the religious principles, and the opposite of that is irreligion." Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pradyumna: "The Vedas are directly the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Nārāyaṇa, and are self*-born. This we have heard from Yamarāja." *Prabhupāda: "This we have heard." This is authority. If you have heard from the authority, that is knowledge. If you have manufactured, that is nonsense. Iti śuśruma. You'll find Arjuna also speaking with Kṛṣṇa*-iti śuśruma. And Śukadeva Gosvāmī, he is such a learned scholar. He also-iti śuś..., that... This is our knowledge: to hear and receive the knowledge from higher authority. In the ordinary way also, the students go to the college, they hear from the professor. That is knowledge. He does not go to a pan-walla to hear. One who is authorized, professor, we hear from him. Similarly, we have to get knowledge from the authority. So supreme authority is Kṛṣṇa. So hear from Him. Then it is knowledge. Otherwise tad ajñānam yad anyathā. What is that? Tad anya...? Pradyumna: Etaj jñānam iti proktam. Prabhupāda: Iti proktam and yad anyathā ajñānam: "Besides this," anyathā, "that is all ajñānam." So we can take perfect knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. There is no difficulty. But we deny: "Why shall I take?" That is our disease. The same thing: "I am also Kṛṣṇa. I can also speak like Kṛṣṇa." This is... Indian man: Aham. *Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā. Not only aham. Aham is good. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is good. But ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā, when he becomes rascal by false ahaṅkāra, then it is dangerous. It is dangerous. And that is going on, these dangerous leaders, by ahaṅkāra, spoiling the whole atmosphere. That is dangerous. Our preaching is... We say that "Here is Kṛṣṇa speaking. He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. So you simply think of Kṛṣṇa, and you chant His name and go to the temple, offer your obeisances. And if you can, offer something for His pūjā." Bas. Our mission is completed. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. The words are there. [break] (Hindi) Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. Girirāja: About fifteen more minutes. Prabhupāda: Hm? So I can go and take my massage now. (Hindi) Girirāja: Actually we could show the book movie. I don't think anyone here has seen it. Prabhupāda: Ah. Yes. Girirāja: (aside:) You didn't see that. Okay I'll get that. It's a very short movie, fifteen minutes. Very inspiring. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) The real purport of Bhagavad*-gītā is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful. (Hindi) If you take Bhagavad-gītā, the speaker of Bhagavad-gītā says this is the purpose: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. Duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ. That... Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhā duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ. "One who does not do that, he is sinful, duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ. And fool, rascal, narādhamāḥ, lowest of the mankind." He is chastising like that. So if you have got other purpose, that means you come to this group. Duṣkṛtino mūḍhā narādhamāḥ. Guest (7): So about (Hindi) Ramakrishna Mission. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) But why do you take Bhagavad*-gītā? You are free to do whatever you like. That freedom is given. Kṛṣṇa has given. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. That you have got. But when you speak of Bhagavad-gītā, then you speak what Kṛṣṇa wants. *Guest (7): You should take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. You explain it but not interpret it. Prabhupāda: There is no need of interpretation. Indian man: You can explain it in the language which people can understand. *Prabhupāda: Explanation also not very much required because the explanation is already there, and we are not so intelligent that we can explain. But we take it, the words of the Bhagavad*-gītā, that Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. If we see that one is not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he comes to this group: duṣkṛtina, narādhamāḥ and mūḍha. That's all. This is our conclusion. We are fools and rascal. We take the words of Kṛṣṇa. He cannot surrender to Kṛṣṇa on account of duṣkṛtina. Kṛti means he's doing something meritorious-but for bad purpose, duṣkṛtina. He is taxing his brain to do something, but against the will of Bhagavad-gītā. That is called duṣkṛtina. The purpose of Bhagavad-gītā is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God. But if you are deviating them to become atheists, narādhamāḥ, then what is Bhagavad-gītā preaching? You preach Bhagavad-gītā as it is. So they take the Bhagavad-gītā for serving their purpose. Somebody was telling me that Dr. Radhakrishnan said that "If you take Bhagavad-gītā as..., Kṛṣṇa as God...," something like that, that they deny that Kṛṣṇa is God. This is Bhagavad-gītā preaching. God is speaking Himself-bhagavān uvāca. Vyāsadeva (Hindi). Vyāsadeva... Who can be better scholar than Vyāsadeva? Vidvān. He is recognized vidvān. Veda-Vyāsa. All ācāryas accept. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitā. So Vyāsadeva.... (Hindi) bhagavān uvāca. (Hindi) Cent percent, they are speaking something which is not the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā. (Hindi) You can speak whatever you like. You have got that liberty. Guest (10): Is it, just to satisfy their own ego that they are doing in this way? *Prabhupāda: Some reason anyābhilāṣitā. He has got other purpose, not the purpose of preaching Bhagavad*-gītā. That is called anyābhilāṣa. So people are infested with anyābhilāṣa, everyone. Therefore he is living this material life. But that should be zero. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. That you have to... That is sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. If you have got other purposes within yourself, then you'll never understand Bhagavad-gītā. This is bhakti. *Hari-śauri: Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto? Prabhupāda: No, guhyad guhyataram. Before saying sarva dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], that "My dear Arjuna, you are My very confidential friend. I have spoken to you so many things." What is that? *Hari-śauri: Sarva*-guhyatamaṁ bhūyaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-guhyatamam. Hari-śauri: Śṛṇu me paramaṁ vacaḥ. Prabhupāda: Paramaṁ vacaḥ. Hari-śauri: Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi te hitam. *Prabhupāda: "Now I am speaking to you. Hear Me now." Then He says sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. Sarva-guhyatamam. "This is the confidential knowledge. And this is open to you because you are My very intimate friend. It is not to be disclosed." Others will not understand. Others will not understand. Sarva-guhyatamam. *Hari-śauri: Sarva*-guhyatamam bhūyaḥ srnu me... Prabhupāda: Paramaṁ vacaḥ. Paramam means supreme instruction. Why? Now...? Hari-śauri: Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti. Prabhupāda: Iṣṭo 'si: "I know you are My very sincere devotee and friend." Then? Hari-śauri: Tato vakṣyāmi te hitam. *Prabhupāda: Tato vakṣyāmi te hitam. This is the confidential knowledge. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam [Brs. 1.1.11]. You simply act favorably to Kṛṣṇa. Then agreed: "Yes, I shall fight." Because he understood that "I have to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, not my whims. I was thinking of my whims, that 'They are my family members. Why shall I fight? Why you are putting me this proposal? So on, so on, so on...' " That... What is that verse? Find out that kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73]. There. There you'll find. Agreed. "Yes." In the beginning he disagreed. Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat prasādān madhusūdana, kariṣye vacanam. Naṣṭo mohaḥ. After so much instruction, if his moha is not dissipated, then what is the use? So he said naṣṭo mohaḥ. You could not find? Hari-śauri: What's the first line? Prabhupāda: Naṣṭo! Why don't you find? You. Give him. He'll find. Why don't you give to Pradyumna? Hari-śauri: Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā? Prabhupāda: Ha! Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: That's it. Sthito 'smi gata*-sandehaḥ. Kariṣye vacanam. This is liberation: "Now I am fixed up," sthito 'smi, "All doubts gone." This is real study of Bhagavad-gītā. And promises, kariṣye vacanam: "All right, I shall fight. I shall kill Bhiṣmadeva. Never mind he's my grandfather. No question of nonviolence. I shall commit violence." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because naṣṭo mohaḥ... "It was my mohaḥ. I was thinking in that way, that 'He's my grandfather. He's my brother. He's my nephew.' These are all nonsense. I have to satisfy You." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73]. That is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Bhakti means to act to satisfy to Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti. Without any argument, what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all right. Guest (10): Unconditional. *Prabhupāda: Unconditional. That is surrender. If we read Bhagavad*-gītā in that way, then sthito 'smi, then sthita prajñā. And if you make cut short... Arjuna said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava [Bg. 10.14]. "Keśava, whatever You have said, I accept it in total." That is surrender. No cut short. Guest (12) (Indian man): Fulfills all requirements, mental requirements. *Prabhupāda: I'll request Bajaji. You are, yourself, your wife and your sister, and our Śrīman Nārāyaṇaji, all, you are all very intelligent. You take this Bhagavad*-gītā preaching seriously. That is my request. Not cut short (Hindi). No cut short. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye [Bg. 10.14]. What is that verse? Hari-śauri: Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava [Bg. 10.14]. Prabhupāda: Ah. "Whatever you are saying," yan māṁ vadasi keśava, "I accept them." No cut short. No mutilation. Then? Hari-śauri: Na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ. Prabhupāda: "Your personality is not understood even by the demigods, what to speak of ordinary men." Then? Hari-śauri: Vidur devā na dānavāḥ. Prabhupāda: What the devā? The demigods do not, what to speak of the demons, dānavāḥ. Then? Next verse? Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: So, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram [Bg. 10.12]. So sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye [Bg. 10.14]. If we accept sarvam etad ṛtam, as it is, then we benefited, and if we do not accept in that way, then it is naṣṭaḥ. Sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. Then it is being spoiled. And what benefit you will get with spoiled thing? As soon as you interpret it is spoiled, immediately spoiled. So what benefit will be derived from the spoiled things? And that is being done. Don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, don't believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa, and if I am preaching Bhagavad-gītā, what is the benefit? It is spoiled? So if you distribute some spoiled food, it will increase food poison. That is going on. Instead of taking benefit from a first-class food, if you distribute a spoiled, then there will be food poisoning. That is being done. In India every home knows Bhagavad-gītā. And because it is spoiled now there will be food poisoning. They are denying the existence of God. God is speaking-Bhagavān uvāca*-and they are now..., don't.... They are not believing in the existence of God. "God? Where is God?" Science. This is going on. If we speak of God, then we are "primitive." And up-to-date? "I am God; you are God." This is up to date. And if we say, "Now, God is Kṛṣṇa. You worship Him. You become devotee," this is primitive. And these Americans, although they are up to date, they have accepted it, my word. I presented them that Kṛṣṇa is God. They have accepted. This is their qualification. Guest (10): Supreme Lord. Prabhupāda: Yes. I have told them that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, and they have accepted. This is my magic, and this is their magic. That's all. You ask them if I did any magic with them. Guest (10): This is magic itself. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, it is magic. It is magic undoubtedly. But I never created any gold or some other... And neither I do know it, how to do it, although there is no scarcity of gold in my pocket. I started this business with forty rupees. So I'll go to take massage. Thank you very much. (Hindi) ...prasāda. Show. Show the film. You are going to show? Girirāja: Haridāsa took the projector, so I don't know when it's coming. Prabhupāda: Why he has? (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 10, 1977, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...at a time. Simply the sense must be there. Jñānavan. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 7.19]. To surrender to Kṛṣṇa is not easy, but if one is jñānavān, he can do it. So make your country jñānavān, not these rascals, unnecessarily wasting time by opposing us. They are rascals. So you have to turn these rascals into sense. Then it will take. Give them prasādam. Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Time will come, ours. Do it. I'll die, but you shall remain. You are all young men. [break] Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: After meeting with Mr. Narayana tomorrow I feel that I... What we first asked him for was some free advertisement, free advertising space that sometimes he gets. He says we'll have to write to Madras to the head office. Prabhupāda: That he'll do... If we get free, you send. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, if they just tell me that will take a week for them to get the answer, then should I wait for a week before starting the advertising campaign? Prabhupāda: No, the free, that is consideration. Let them give freely. You take advantage. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: OK. Prabhupāda: So where is Jagadīśa? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's in his room. Prabhupāda: I called him. Where is that... I made the... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Advertisement. Prabhupāda: Advertisement, yes. So just exactly to that... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Simply I have not added the name. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And the list of books. Prabhupāda: List of... Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just update it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Here are the spaces. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, for the addresses. Prabhupāda: Addresses. You can write. What is the address of the Vrnda Book Company? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have it with me in my office. Prabhupāda: So write it there. Rāmeśvara: This paper circulates more than the Times. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Combined. But not individually by city. Rāmeśvara: But it's very close. Just in this city, Bombay, only twenty thousand papers difference. In Delhi, bigger circulation than Times. Prabhupāda: Competition. Rāmeśvara: Very competitive. And it's overall much more. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's a fine paper. Therefore we decided. Prabhupāda: Please see that there is no printing mistake. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we won't. Prabhupāda: That is... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'm giving Bombay address; Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, Hare Kṛṣṇa Land, Juhu, Bombay; Bhaktivedanta Book Trust; and the Delhi address. Delhi temple also. Prabhupāda: No. Why Delhi temple? They are not executing? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Because we have a good stock of books over there also. Prabhupāda: No, that is another thing. But they have no department for executing. They will be embarrassed when they receive order. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: OK, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, Bombay and Bengal. Prabhupāda: Give the full address. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I'm waiting for Jagadīśa to bring. Including the telephone number on the bottom. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very often people just call up. Rāmeśvara: In India when they have ads like this, Gopāla, do they have coupons? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Couponing is just introduced, being introduced in India. They'll not take. Prabhupāda: Telephone number, I think, Vrnda has also. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he just got a phone. Lever Brothers, they've been experimenting with couponing in India. Not very... Rāmeśvara: This man invited us to have the books reviewed. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I saw that. We're going to work on that now, even get these books reviewed by Times of India and all... So this is free publicity, and this is respected publicity. They also have a telephone number now. I have seen in the news. I have it in my office. Prabhupāda: Telephone number? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I think I have got. Yes, 617796 Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: 617796. If we give their address, then is postbox address then necessary? Prabhupāda: Postbox? Why? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It is not necessary. Yes, that's what I'm asking. It's not. Prabhupāda: What is the address? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: 30 by 1B College Row, Calcutta 70009. Prabhupāda: Or Calcutta 9 is... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have the Pin code. Zip Code, so... Prabhupāda: Phone number. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I have that. Telephone 617796. Now one question on pricing. Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, we are selling it to the libraries for forty-five rupees. Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not the question of library. What is the general price? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The general price is... Rāmeśvara: Lower. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. The general price is higher. What's the U.S. registered price? They're just asking that... It comes about seventy rupees. Prabhupāda: Don't make duplicity pricing. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Exactly. That is why I'm discussing with you right now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Our pricing will be consistent. So I think forty*-five rupees is reasonable. Above that, in India people will hesitate on buying. I'd like to get everyone to think it is available at... *Prabhupāda: Why forty*-five? We can reduce more even, do you think.(?) Jagadīśa: (indistinct) *Rāmeśvara: He's already charging the libraries forty*-five rupees. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we can't go below that... Prabhupāda: No. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...because then they... Prabhupāda: That's nice. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, Śrīla Prabhupāda.... [break] What do you think? Rāmeśvara: Lower the better. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That is what I'm saying. Because... Rāmeśvara: We are selling so many Gītās in America because we lowered the price. Prabhupāda: So you consult and do. Rāmeśvara: Did you mention about the loans for Bhūṣaṇa? Another thing. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I had spoken to you earlier that we can expand our printing, especially in India... Prabhupāda: So now you have received nine lakhs' worth books. So how you'll pay? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Nine lakhs' worth of books? Prabhupāda: From America. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. As we sell these, this money can be put into construction. Prabhupāda: So you have to inform them. He'll send less. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I'll work that arrangement out with him before he goes back. Prabhupāda: So you should do that. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I have told Rāmeśvara Mahārāja that before he goes back to America he should spend a day with me so we can work all these things out. So after he leaves you, he will spend... Prabhupāda: Everything should be done businesslike. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We don't want anything free. Prabhupāda: All first class. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can pay for things now. I'm just addressing Rāmeśvara Mahārāja's help in getting our exports done. Once... Prabhupāda: He will help you, and then you can, you also, big business. You... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. These exports will give India a very good income. Prabhupāda: Or you can exchange. Whatever money you have received, you supply books. Rāmeśvara: The government will insist on... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. The government will insist that we get foreign exchange, and... Prabhupāda: Anyway, if credit builds, you send less money. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I got a letter from Bali*-mardana Mahārāja. He's ordered four thousand... Today I got a letter. He says... He's ordered the Bhāgavatams also. Four thousand copies of First Canto, Part Two, he ordered already. So this one is four thousand copies, Śrīla Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: This is Indian printed? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I'm printing that. Prabhupāda: Very good. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Right on that, there's already a profit of more than twenty thousand rupees. So just with export... Prabhupāda: So you can return that twenty thousand rupees I have given you for Jayapataka. (laughter) Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, we will invest that as further expansion, but if you want... Prabhupāda: Then you should also take it as loan. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This all, advertisement? Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. It is business. Rāmeśvara: From one pocket to another. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. So Bali*-mardana says... I just got his letter today. Prabhupāda: I had one... When I was doing medical business I had one very nice customer. He was my patron also, one Muhammadan doctor, Sriraja Uttina.(?) He was very kind to me. He was just like a father to me. So his system was that in his pharmacy, patent medicine, drugs, medicine, surgical instruments, like that different headings. So suppose, at the sales time, sells some patent medicine. So he has got a box. So he puts the price in the patent medicine. And if he sells some surgical, he puts the price in the surgical pot. In this way, when they want to purchase again, so he would consult his pot, whether there is money. Then he'll allow to purchase. Otherwise not. So he told me, "This is my account. This is my account. When they want to purchase, they consign us something. I shall allow them to purchase so much as I have got in the box." This is... I have seen that gentleman. And in Calcutta there was... In our young time there was a cinema, Mr. Maddar, J.F. Maddar. He's a Parsee. So for some..., business, he was tenant of mine. One of my tenants. So in his room there were boxes. So I asked Mr. Maddar what is this box at home. And "This is the counter containing counter part of ticket in my cinema house. So these are sent to me. I count the counter part. Then I can calculate, 'This is the calculation.' I don't keep an account. Now let them do whatever they like. I understand that so many counter parts, so much money." *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bali*-mardana writes to me that he even wants to order 7.2 and 7.3 from India. So what I'm saying is the demand is there for our books. Because we are selling the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam for one dollar forty-five cents, same quality with plastic cover and two or three ribbon. Prabhupāda: No, one thing is that if you export, you will come to the light of the government. They want. And then you will get a good supply of paper. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We can import paper also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So that's why I want you to spend a day or two. We have so many things I want to cover with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. He can send paper? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, what I had earlier written to him was we can import paper and I can give the money into construction. And because I have... I know the Joint Chief Control of Imports and Exports in Delhi, and he told me he would give me a license to import paper duty free. So we can import paper which you can pay for in Singapore, you follow? I'll give you the dealer, everything. And the paper will come. We'll print... Prabhupāda: You supplied paper to Japan, I think. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you can supply the paper. Rāmeśvara: And now, whenever we print books in America, we supply paper. It's much cheaper if we buy it. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We do the printing. I buy all the... Rāmeśvara: The printer will mark it up if he has to spend his money for paper. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. In India also we buy the paper ourselves. We buy the paper and give it... Prabhupāda: That is good. Supply paper. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We're dealing with all the paper mills directly. Rāmeśvara: You take good savings that way. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And also the printer likes it because it doesn't enter his account. Rāmeśvara: Printer loves it. The printer doesn't have to spend his money on paper. Prabhupāda: Not only that, if he makes bill for the paper, then he has to pay sales tax. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Also the income tax will say, "Your sales were so high," so he doesn't want the paper account to come under that. So what I'm saying, Śrīla Prabhupāda... The demand for our books is there. And like BBT Los Angeles sells a *Bhāgavatam* to the temples for $3.50, and we are selling it for $1.45. And that includes our profit already. Our real cost is 90 cents, 95 cents. So we can expand our printing capacity here. As I discussed with you last week, there's one machine from England that Usa Printers wants to import. And if we give him a loan... It will be his machine. He'll give us documents, and he'll pay back interest every month. In two years he'll pay back the whole money plus interest, which will be higher than what the bank gives us. Prabhupāda: Is that all right? Rāmeśvara: What is the bank rate? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The bank rate's about 12%. We'll do higher than the bank rate. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Bank rate is not less than 16%. Rāmeśvara: He is only offering 12% a year. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he'll give us more than the bank rate. Whatever rate the bank lends at, we'll get more than that. That's understood. Prabhupāda: He may mean... "More than bank rate" means bank allows to their customer not more than 10%. But if you take loan from bank... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I know he will give more. That loan... Prabhupāda: Take loan... The interest is... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the borrowing loan. He will give more than that. Prabhupāda: The borrowing loan is not less than 16%. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: 15%... Yes. He'll offer 25%. Rāmeśvara: I think this is a good idea because the printer will be indebted to us. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And now we also need his help to make... I went all over India looking for printers. Prabhupāda: So do it immediately. Rāmeśvara: This is a good opportunity for us to have a very solid relationship with the printer. Prabhupāda: Hm. That's nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also if we can give these Bhāgavatams for a dollar to America, they can import it from here also, and as I told Rāmeśvara Mahārāja, we can give a plastic cover plus two or three ribbons. Insured, it will cost nothing extra. Prabhupāda: You decide for (indistinct) why not. Rāmeśvara: We're going to discuss it at the Māyāpura festival with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Swami, because he's in charge of distribution. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: He has to approve the quality. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The quality's only a little inferior. Prabhupāda: I don't think India can make such quality. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But the *Gītā* we did came very close, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: It may come to close, but not to... Then that's all right. If it is possible, we can... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like Jayatīrtha wrote to me. He prefers the Indian *Gītā* to the American because it is economical. Rāmeśvara: Because it is... Yes, because of the price. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We all have to be realistic. The price... Prabhupāda: Now Jayatīrtha is going first in selling, more than anyone. Rāmeśvara: During the... During one week of Christmas he defeated Los Angeles. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Jagadīśa: He's taking (indistinct). Rāmeśvara: Oh, yes, he did. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He was third on that list. Rāmeśvara: His one temple defeated any other temple. His one temple was the number one temple, but as a whole zone... Prabhupāda: Jayatīrtha is also good business. (chuckles) He has got good business brain. So do it nicely and Kṛṣṇa... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This will be very good. Prabhupāda: More work; *more use your intelligence. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā: with life, with money, with intelligence, with words to serve Kṛṣṇa. Etāvaj janma*-sa-phala tvam. This is the perfection of life. How? Etāvaj janma-sal..., janma-sa-phala tvam dehinām iha dehiṣu. Iha dehi... This, in human body... Those who have got body as dog, cats, they have got body. But iha dehiṣu, this human form for perfection... And how that perfection is achieved? Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā śreya ācaraṇaṁ sadā: "With your life, with your money, with your intelligence, with your words, serve." That is perfect life. Trivikrama: Today we have an engagement at the Gujarati... What was that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Nathdvar? Prabhupāda: Here? Trivikrama: In Bombay. In the city we have a... Prabhupāda: So books are selling? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Which ones selling? Trivikrama: Well, they want mostly in Gujarati. They didn't read Hindi. There is magazines and *Īśopaniṣad*. Prabhupāda: This magazine you have got? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We have stock of Gujarati books also. Prabhupāda: No, this magazine. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Not this one. This one hasn't arrived. Trivikrama: This is a rupee and a half. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These covers I did in Bombay. These are books from the other covers. They came out very good. Ādi*-rasa was telling me, in a week we'll also do the black and white in Bombay, because the quality is going to be better. Prabhupāda: You make expert, on quality expert. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We are doing all the Gujarati covers in Bombay now, and I wrote to Jayapataka. We can even do the Bengali printing here. Prabhupāda: In India, Bombay is best. There are many offset printing houses. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like in the Bengali Back to Godhead they did in Calcutta, they spent eight paisa more per copy printing than Bombay, and quality was much inferior. So now I said, "You compose over there..." *Prabhupāda: Typeset is Delhi good, but offset*-Bombay. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So what I've told them, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is they can get the composing done in Bengal, Calcutta, then send it to me, like I get the Hindi composing done in Vṛndāvana and mail it to Bombay for printing. So it is cheaper and good quality, plus we have the whole department set up. One boy, Pippalai, he just takes care of technical aspects. And we have a shipping department all set up now. Two boys work just on the shipping. Prabhupāda: So supply department keep in one place. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And we have very good... Prabhupāda: In other places it is... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't have the men, and we have good... Prabhupāda: No. They supply all supplies. The orders should be supplied from one place. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We're getting up to two months' credit on printing books. Everything is nicely set up. Prabhupāda: But keep your credit. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I have very good credit, even with the paper manufacturers. They just give us the paper right away. We have very good credit at the moment because... Prabhupāda: What is that? You were asking something? *Rāmeśvara: No, I was just taking notes. Bali*-mardana has ordered forty thousand Bhagavad-gītās for Australia. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: From India. Rāmeśvara: From India, forty thousand. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I got an order from Jayatīrtha for sixty thousand. (Prabhupāda chuckles) And this is just... Prabhupāda: His wife is good businesswoman. *Rāmeśvara: Bali*-mardana's. *Prabhupāda: Bali*-mardana. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: She can do very good business. Is it not? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. First they were hesitating, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So what I did is I told Jayatīrtha that Australia has already ordered, so he said, "Okay, I'll order sixty thousand." I told Australia that "England's already ordered," so he said, "I'll order forty thousand." (chuckling) We had to get the thing started at once. *Prabhupāda: No, Australia, from India it is nearer, half*-day(?). *Rāmeśvara: What is your printing cost on Bhagavad*-gītā? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About 11.50, eleven rupees, fifty paisa. But the export edition is going to be cheaper because when you export, you get a lot of duties, so... Prabhupāda: Now, in export and exchange with paper, good paper. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can import paper. The government will let us import paper for exporting without any problem. But I'm just saying that the export edition of *Gītā* is going to cost us about two rupees less than the Indian edition for Indian market because... Prabhupāda: So why not import paper? It will be very nice. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because on paper now there's high duty, but if it is for export, the government... Prabhupāda: Then America can order from you also. Rāmeśvara: On the *Gītā*, his price is not better than America. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is because of the... Rāmeśvara: America, the printing is better and the price is better on the *Gītā*, because we are printing so many copies. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: On the *Bhāgavatam* the prices are better here. Prabhupāda: It is a quantity. They are giving nice price for large quantity. Rāmeśvara: Even though the price is better in America, he is getting the market because he is selling it for less. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And we are going to order few small extras. We're going to offer a few small extras like small ribbons with plastic cover. Rāmeśvara: Has Prabhupāda told you how much profit you should make? Because in America you have always said it should be marked up one hundred percent. If a book costs us one dollar, we should sell to the temple at two dollars. So your book is costing over one dollar, and you are only selling it for $1.45. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. The *Bhāgavatam*'s costing less. The Gītās we are selling for $1.50. Rāmeśvara: Oh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Bhāgavatams... Also the freight from here is less. That's another feeling that we have. Prabhupāda told me England, Australia, Africa should get books from India, and America, Canada, from America. Prabhupāda: There is no consideration of big profit. Simply we want big number, distribution. That's all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also this will increase our prestige as a movement. *Prabhupāda: Big number, as big as possible. My Guru Mahārāja, he had magazines in six languages: English, Hindi, Bengali, Oriya, Assamese, and one Bengali daily. So if our men complained that "Such and such men are not giving their subscription, so, what we can do? Stop the supply?" Oh, he would become very angry. He asked them, "Are you commercial*-hired fools? No! Supply free!" He used to say like that. He was asking, "Whether we shall stop supply? The subscription is not coming." So immediately he became angry: "Are you commercial-hired? If he's not giving price, supply him free." That was his policy. So less perfect or..., try to see how many numbers of books. *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Because once BBT India starts making profit, then the burden on BBT America will also be lessened. BBT India can start giving money for construction and other things. I foresee that if BBT India goes on, next, in 1977 we should make a profit of at least twenty*-five lakhs rupees, twenty-five to thirty lakhs. *Prabhupāda: That's nice. And open center village to village, town to town. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi*-grāma. See first printing is very first class and it is distributed very widely. Not shabby thing. No. Just like our Godbrothers, they printed... They have no printing; still, whatever they print, all shabby. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Full of mistakes. *Prabhupāda: Full of mistakes. Full of mistakes, the get*-up is not good, but they'll sell. And they print only in Bengali. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all. Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Conversation on Train to Allahabad-*-January 11, 1977, India Rāmeśvara: We are going out to sell our books, and even if the person does not want to buy, we are insisting that they buy. Prabhupāda: This is our duty. That is our duty. Rāmeśvara: He thinks it is too aggressive. Prabhupāda: Eh? No, that is your temperament, because everything has got degree according to the man. So we should not worry. This is very nice, that we are imploring. Rāmeśvara: So his conclusion was that all the people who we are selling books to, they do not like us. That was his conclusion. So I said that if they do not like us, then why is our book sales increasing? We started off selling two hundred thousand magazines a month. Now one million a month. So if you say that people do not like us... Prabhupāda: Not two hundred thousand. Trivikrama: Twenty. Hari-śauri: Ten thousand. Prabhupāda: Began with five thousand. Rāmeśvara: And we said that people are writing us so many letters ordering our books by mail. So you say do not like us, but we say they love us. Prabhupāda: What was his reply? Rāmeśvara: On every point he was defeated. Then this Reverend from the Lutheran Church, he said that we have invented this Kṛṣṇa religion. He said that Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary man who is a sex symbol, having so many women, gopīs, wives, and that we are saying that He is God. And this is heresy, he told us, a concoction. So he was defeated in different ways also. And at the end he had to admit that "The only way to find out is if you buy their books, so everyone go buy their books and see for yourself." Prabhupāda: No, even taking it that Kṛṣṇa is after sex, then if sex is bad, then why you are after sex? The whole world is going on after sex. How you can deny it? Rāmeśvara: He says that sex is not for God. Prabhupāda: Why? If sex if not there in God, then how it comes? If God created everything, so God did not create sex? Rāmeśvara: They think it means we are saying God has a material body, because they associate sex with material body. *Prabhupāda: Material body has no sex. A dead man does not enjoy sex. Do you think that a dead man enjoys sex? Suppose a beautiful girl*-dead. Will you accept for sex? Then why do you take that sex is for the body? (train noises) "Sex if for the material body" is not the fact. When the soul is not there, where is sex? Rāmeśvara: They consider sex to be his lower nature, animal nature. Prabhupāda: No. Everything is..., becomes animal nature when it is perverted, when it is contaminated. Rāmeśvara: They do not have any conception of the positive. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: They have no conception of pure life. So they think that it's just... *Prabhupāda: If they have no conception, we should give them conception that the body is dead, decomposed, then where is the sex? Where is the inclination? Similarly, the soul originally... As it is said in the Vedānta*-sūtra, that "Everything is coming from Brahman." Athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now let us talk about Brahman." This is the meaning of athāto brahma-jijñāsāh. Then next verse is..., sūtra, code-janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. And Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8]. So unless sex comes from God... It may be perverted in the material world. That is another thing. But originally, pure sex must be there in God. Otherwise how it comes? Everything is emanating from the Supreme. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. So how you can say there is no sex? Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura explains that janmādy asya, ādi-rasa. Ādi. Ādi-rasa means sex enjoyment. So he has explained that sex has come from... Because we have used perverted sex, we have got a very bad idea. But actually sex is there in the original. Otherwise there is no question of mādhurya-rasa. Hlādinī-śakti. There is no question of sex. You do not understand Absolute. The opposition party will inquire you, but sex is originally from Brahman. That is why... Rāmeśvara: His argument was that when Kṛṣṇa was here, He was having friendship with the gopīs, who were married to other men. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: This is immoral. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: God never acts in an immoral way. *Prabhupāda: So that you have made, immoral. Because if He is the proprietor, then He is the proprietor of everything. You have accepted one woman who belongs to Kṛṣṇa. You are immoral. He is the original proprietor of everything, and everything belongs to Him, but He has given you one woman. Tena tyaktena. But no woman belongs to you. So you should stop connection with women. It is immoral. Otherwise every woman belongs to Kṛṣṇa. How you can use Kṛṣṇa's property? That is the disease, that we are trying to enjoy Kṛṣṇa's property. Kṛṣṇa's the proprietor. Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva... [Bg. 5.29]. He's the bhokta, He's the enjoyer. How you can enjoy Kṛṣṇa's property? That is immoral. And therefore you shall be punished. You are being punished. Because we are encroaching upon Kṛṣṇa's property illegally, therefore we are suffering. Kṛṣṇa is moral, you are utilizing unauthorized, using this material... Rāmeśvara: His argument was that if God comes to this world and displays activities with women, it is natural that the followers of that religion will also want to have affairs with women. Prabhupāda: No. Because they have not studied Kṛṣṇa, they misunderstand in that way. You are fond of woman. Kṛṣṇa comes to show you that in the Vaikuṇṭha, Goloka Vṛndāvana, there is woman, but not in this way. Originally there is. That is pure. So it requires education. You are not educated; you cannot talk. Now sex..., even in our material experience we find that by sex many great men has been found. So how you can accuse sex? You are talking. We should say, "You are a product of sex. So how do you say that sex is bad?" Rāmeśvara: They say that when one man has many different women, then that is immoral. Prabhupāda: No, first of all answer. Suppose you are a big man, but you are product of sex. Are you born differently or through sex? What is the answer? Rāmeśvara: Sex. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sex is not bad. When it is misused, that is the defect. Otherwise, sex is not... Rāmeśvara: The Western conception is that one man can only have one woman. Prabhupāda: Why? If he can produce many big men, he can have hundreds of women. But you cannot do that. Therefore you are restrained. You are bad. You better restrain. Don't have sex, because you'll produce cats and dogs. But one who is able to produce great brain, great philosophers, he should produce hundreds. You do not know how to produce good brain. Therefore you stop! Don't produce cats and dogs. For you it is "Stop." You do not know how to use sex. Therefore you should stop. [break] You should not any more use sex. But one who can produce better brains should have hundreds of times. You must know how to produce. That is Vedic civilization, dharmaḥ saṁskāra idam...(?) It is not a secrecy, how to produce brain. And because brain is not produced, therefore there is agitation, that they have no brain. They do not know the value of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You have been produced like cats and dogs; *therefore you cannot appreciate. Therefore you should stop. But one who has power to produce brain, to produce Kṛṣṇa conscious children, they should be use. Foodstuff is forbidden for a person who cannot digest. One who can digest food, he must eat sumptuously. There is no restriction for him. Food is not bad. One who cannot digest, it is bad for him. This is the conclusion. What is food for one is poison for another. If you cannot use sex power how to use it for better purposes, you should not use sex. What is that verse that Kṛṣṇa says? Sarva*-yoniṣu kaunteya... [Bg. 14.4]. *Hari-śauri: Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā. *Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā. Tasmin garbhaṁ vadāmy aham. Garbhaṁ vadāmy aham. [break] ...further condition, one who thinks there is no good or bad. Everything is bad. He is thinking, "I am your friend..." Indian man: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Good explanation*-stool. Stool, this side or that side... [break] More opposition there will be, more we have to defend. Rāmeśvara: It's forcing us to become expert in different fields. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: You said, "Take the opportunity to be well advertised." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Rāmeśvara: So we have to scheme in so many different ways to take advantage of this. (train stops) [break] ...friends with all the newspaper, television and radio people. Already in Los Angeles they know us by our first names, and we know them by their first names. There is some familiarity. Prabhupāda: Intimate with... Rāmeśvara: And there's also a chance to meet government leaders. Prabhupāda: Someway or other, it is becoming popular. (chuckles) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should we be thinking in our minds that one day the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will have to manage the cities and the nations of the world? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: So there are so many different departments in managing such a big thing. It requires a lot of... Prabhupāda: No, no. We shall... If people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the so many nonsense departments will be reduced. Hari-śauri: Simplified. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The department, the sinful departments, illicit sex, meat*-eating, this will be closed, and that will make simple. Rāmeśvara: Completely? Prabhupāda: No, at least we shall try to make closed. And if people become localized, then this traffic will be little. Just like I am trying to organize the farm. If people do not come out of home, then this system will be obsolete. There will be no more department. They have created hundreds. They do not know how to manage it. For livelihood they have to go to Bombay, and therefore they require so many local trains. But if they localized, they can get their livelihood locally, there is no question of these all... *Rāmeśvara: In America this is becoming the number*-one problem-unemployment. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They must be. Artificial employment. (train re*-starts) Rāmeśvara: People go to college in America; they can no longer get jobs. They spend so many years going to college getting their degree. So now they cannot find any jobs. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the position in America. And what to speak of this country. Therefore, after being educated they go to foreign countries. You'll find so many Indians in educational labs(?) in your country, because they don't get any suitable jobs. [break] ...their so many departments will be closed. Rāmeśvara: It's possible in India but not in America. Prabhupāda: Why? Rāmeśvara: The American people are... They consider it backwards. Prabhupāda: That has to be educated, that backward is real life. Rāmeśvara: They think they have achieved a higher standard of freedom by traveling all over the world... Prabhupāda: Where is your freedom? Where is your freedom if for your livelihood you have to go a hundred miles? Where is your freedom? Why you are illusioned? For your bread, you have to go hundred miles off, either by car or by train. So where is your freedom? Rāmeśvara: The freedom is in leisure time. They have a lot of leisure time. Prabhupāda: Where is leisure time? You rise early in the morning and start for your office. Where is your leisure time? All imagination. I have seen in New York. They are coming from the other parts, starting early in the morning, two hours in the ferry and two hours in the cars, and standing two hours. What is this? Leaders, rich men, can think like that, that "I have leisure," but a worker, lower class, they have no freedom. That is illusion, and we are trying to give freedom to everyone. That is freedom. You are forced to go to the factory and work there in a hellish condition of life. Is that freedom? Rāmeśvara: There must be still education so the people will... Say we are one day... Prabhupāda: No education, no. Education will be required only for the guiding class: brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, not for anyone, śūdras. They are two only. Others will... What education required? Suppose if you produce... If you..., you are accustomed to agriculture, cow protection, there is no need going to college and schools. If you remain illiterate, still you can do. Rāmeśvara: But in America... *Prabhupāda: No, no, America is not... I am talking of the (indistinct), the class who will guide the aim of life, brāhmaṇa class, and a class that will give them protection from injuries by others, kṣatriya class. Then the next class, food-producing men, they do not require. Actually only brāhmaṇas, they require education, or all others, they will simply see and learn. So little education required*-that you can learn by hearing only, that's all. Suppose a brāhmaṇa class says that "This is good; this is bad." So you hear and accept. It doesn't require to go to school and college. So education will be simplified. [break] It has become very much complicated. Rāmeśvara: They have given too much power to the people, so the people demand so many things. Prabhupāda: Therefore they're suffering. Ordinary people, what they'll do? Anarthas. Actually it is anartha. They have created so many things. Rāmeśvara: They are very much afraid if we close down the gambling houses and the prostitution houses that there will be no more enjoyment. Life will be boring. Prabhupāda: "What we'll do?" (laughter) So we shall give you opportunity to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance here. (train stops) What is this nonsense? Rāmeśvara: It seems that if one day the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement has actually achieved some powerful position in America... Prabhupāda: That we want. *Rāmeśvara: ...we will have to tolerate all these things*-cinema, nightclubs. How can we close all these things? The people want these things. Prabhupāda: No. If you educate people, if you give them better enjoyment, they'll give up. Rāmeśvara: Very gradual. Prabhupāda: Just like our men. They are not after cinema or brothel house or restaurants. It requires education. Hari-śauri: We have to make them devotees. Rāmeśvara: But can all the masses of people become devotees? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, cent percent devotees, by this process: ask them to chant and take prasāda. Jagadīśa: People in general are very much inclined to accept whoever their leader is if they feel happy. So if we give them kīrtana and prasādam, if their economic needs are met, then how can they avoid? Economic needs are the main thing. That's why they... Prabhupāda: If they can eat nicely and they have no complaint for living conditions, they will become. Rāmeśvara: But they will not give up sex life. Prabhupāda: No, no. I don't say that you give up sex life. Rāmeśvara: That means that they want to have nice clothing and cars for sex. As soon as there is sex, then they want so many other things to make it more attractive. *Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Not necessarily. Formerly there was sex life. They're thinking like that, "We require," naturally. First of all they'll be... If they advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they will stop sex life. Yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa... If they're really Kṛṣṇa conscious, they'll have no more taste for sex life. That is... Hari-śauri: But that position is not very easily attainable. Prabhupāda: No, that is not easy. Therefore we say, "Restrict this." And this will be possible if he follows our program. Rāmeśvara: You have said many times that if a small percentage of the Americans become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the whole country can gradually become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: So that means that in the beginning we may be very powerful in government, but still, the masses of people will be karmīs still. *Prabhupāda: No. You can introduce in such a way that they will become devotees. Suppose in big, big factories we shall introduce this prasāda distribution and chanting. They'll immediately be popular. Everything will be... Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Jagadīśa: In order for us to get power, by that time the illumination and knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be widespread. Rāmeśvara: That's what I'm wondering. I was thinking that it wouldn't be. There would be... Jagadīśa: Otherwise how can we get through? What is the use of having one politician? Rāmeśvara: Many revolutions have been victorious with a very small minority of people behind them because they're so well organized. Russia, Germany, all these revolutions. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Rāmeśvara: In history there is examples of small groups of people taking over a government because they are very intelligent and very well organized. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: And the mass of people did not believe in them, but still, they took over the government. Like in Russia. Jagadīśa: But Kṛṣṇa consciousness knowledge... Prabhupāda: In Russia, the mass of people aloof from this rascal theory. Hari-śauri: They are not Communists, the mass of people. The Communist party itself is very small. Prabhupāda: Yes, very small. By terrorism there will be, by terrorism. Rāmeśvara: So when the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement becomes so powerful that it is in charge of the government, is it because of a small group of people or because of a mass? Prabhupāda: It is due to quality of the leaders. Rāmeśvara: But will it be like Russia where there is only a small group of people who are Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: No, it is not that. The quality of the people will be changed. Rāmeśvara: So that means the whole mass population... Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Only then will Kṛṣṇa conscious government... Prabhupāda: No, no. You can have government when you are in even minority. But the mass of people, on account of this quality, will have to see. Hari-śauri: The idea is to convince them that what they need is good quality leaders, that not necessarily that they already have to become to that stage themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be appreciated by any man because it's very simple. Prabhupāda: Simple and it is natural also. Hari-śauri: The desire for good leadership is there, so if we present good leaders, then they'll naturally take. Prabhupāda: Our leaders must be very good. Hari-śauri: That means we have to move into political circles (train starts moving) and do a lot of preaching on there. Prabhupāda: If you work strictly on your principles, then everyone... Rāmeśvara: In America there is a rule that there is separation of church and government. Prabhupāda: It is not church. Rāmeśvara: But they think of us... Prabhupāda: Not stereotyped church. Rāmeśvara: But they think of us as a religion. Prabhupāda: They may think. It is not the fact. It is a culture. Rāmeśvara: For example, this group, this new record, Golden Avatar record... Prabhupāda: That may be for a certain class. Rāmeśvara: It can become very popular, but if they find out it is Hare Kṛṣṇa, they will think it is religion and they will not buy it. But if we do not mention that it is Hare Kṛṣṇa right at the beginning... Prabhupāda: Either you mention or not mention, unless they realize that it is good... Rāmeśvara: Well, that they'll realize when they hear it. Just like our book distributors. They're not dressing as Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees; therefore they are successful. As soon as the people see that they are Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, they do not want religion. Prabhupāda: No... Suppose a military dress... Then there are different dresses. When it is understood properly, dress is immaterial. The military dress... Everyone knows that their business is to kill. That does not mean they are hated. Similarly, people see, and when they understand, that is the process. Jagadīśa: In the Kṛṣṇa book, when Kamsa was being a little lenient with Vasudeva, Nārada Muni thought to speed things up, so he instigated Kamsa to become frightened about Vasudeva and Devaki and their children. So similarly, it appears that in order to speed up Kṛṣṇa consciousness's infiltration and overtaking this materialistic society, that all of these brainwashing charges and... Prabhupāda: It has got... The chanting has got spiritual power. That will rectify everything. Even there is misunderstanding, it will be rectified. That is spiritual power. Rāmeśvara: The chanting for the mass of people is by reading your books. *Prabhupāda: That will rectify everything. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. All misunderstanding gone away. Rāmeśvara: We have to be very clever. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: In America it requires being very clever to get them to read your books. Even if they buy millions of books, there's no guarantee that they're reading it. So we have to make other kinds of propaganda. Prabhupāda: No, at least it is expected they will read: "What is this book I have purchased? Let me see." Reading, of course, meant for intelligent class. Hari-śauri: Well, just like this radio show, there were so many things said, but at the end, even the man who was blaspheming said, "Well, I guess we'll just have to read your books and find out what it's about." So if people hear a (sic:) controvity and we're arguing one way, they argue another way, then if the book's there, they'll naturally want to read it just to see actually what's the fact. Rāmeśvara: We are starting a new radio show again in America. Formerly we had a show called "The Kṛṣṇa Show." So we're starting it again, and it will be nationwide. And there will be a lot of controversy. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to take advantage of the modern medium of publicity. Rāmeśvara: Radio and even television. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Everyone watches television. If they see it on television it is-"That's a fact." Prabhupāda: We have to show how we are eating, how we are sleeping, how we are talking. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (japa) *Rāmeśvara: The only hope is if Kṛṣṇa gives us the intelligence*-because we're so stupid. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has already given you. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekāṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is simple truth. Believe in Kṛṣṇa. That means Supreme Personality of Godhead. Whatever He says is truth. That's all. This is intelligence: "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, that is truth." Hari-śauri: Even if one is not so clever, still, if he simply repeats and presents Kṛṣṇa, then that's enough. Prabhupāda: Firm faith. Firm faith: "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says is all right." Hari-śauri: Because ultimately Kṛṣṇa is the doer of everything. *Prabhupāda: Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya. This is basic platform, that "What Kṛṣṇa says, that is truth." Kṛṣṇa bhakti kaile sarva*-karma kṛta haya: "If I follow Kṛṣṇa, then my business is complete." This is intelligence. Now... We have come to the open field. How it is nice. And so long we were passing through that congested areas-hellish, simply hellish. And now here is open space. How it is nice. Hari-śauri: To enter into a city is so imposing on your consciousness. Prabhupāda: Up to that point, simply rubbish, all papers thrown here and there. People are living in... Now see here, how it is open and pleasing. Organize this farm project. Farm. (background talking) Hari-śauri: He's just saying that in the West one requires a great deal of capital. To start a farm, to get the land, you need a lot of money because land is very expensive. And also we have to use modern farming techniques because we have so few men to run the farms. Prabhupāda: No, you show example. People will do automatically. When the people find it is very nice, they will take. Hari-śauri: Should we try to make an effort to have our householders go and live on the farms, a special effort? If it's ready to do that? Prabhupāda: Why householders? Everyone. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (japa) Rāmeśvara: In America there is a very big emphasis on getting people to join us by moving into our temples. The temple presidents are very eager to get as many people to move in as possible, but in the long run most people cannot come up to the standard. Prabhupāda: Therefore I am... Farms. Rāmeśvara: So they have to be encouraged to have a little bit of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in their own home, make their home a temple. Prabhupāda: No, let them go to the farm, New Vrindaban. Rāmeśvara: Many people... Most people in the world, they are gṛhamedhīs, and they cannot give it up so easily. Prabhupāda: "No, you remain... Come here with your wife, children. You remain gṛhamedhī." Jagadīśa: New Vrindaban is very austere. If we build little bungalows with modern convenience... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jagadīśa: There has to be some modern convenience. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Then we shall do that. Rāmeśvara: But for many people who live in the cities, they have their jobs already. They don't want to give it up. Prabhupāda: (train slows down) What is the nonsense? No, there is a station? No station. Jagadīśa: Why does this train keep stopping? (train stops) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jagadīśa: Why does the train keep stopping? Prabhupāda: Who is this gentleman? Hari-śauri: Pradyumna? Prabhupāda: Oh, Pradyumna. Rāmeśvara: Say, in America, most people live in the cities, and they already have their job, and they are set in their ways. Prabhupāda: But you said that there is unemployment also. Rāmeśvara: To a certain extent. But there are still 250,000,000 people. So most of them... Prabhupāda: So those who are unemployed, let them come to us. We shall give them employment. Rāmeśvara: Yes. But for the mass population... Prabhupāda: Well, gradually you will increase and... Rāmeśvara: We have to give them something that they can do in their home. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: Because it is impractical to think that they will give up everything and move into the temple. Prabhupāda: No, those who are unemployed, let them come. We shall give them employment. Jagadīśa: On the farm. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: For those who are unemployed, that's attractive. Jagadīśa: But for those who are already employed... Rāmeśvara: But most people have jobs. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: Many people already have their jobs and their families. Prabhupāda: All right, let them not come, but those who are unemployed, let them come. Rāmeśvara: But what...? For those people who already have their jobs, instead of... *Prabhupāda: That job... They will be very soon jobless. Don't worry. (laughs) They will come. They will be obliged to come. Now they have got job, but as the days are advancing in Kali*-yuga, they'll be jobless. Hari-śauri: So we can expect that material conditions are going to become very much worse than this. Prabhupāda: They may come or not. We don't care for it. Let us establish an ideal society. That is the... *Jagadīśa: If someone who is well-off wants to become a devotee, shall we encourage him to give up all of his material well*-being or shall we ask him to instead put a temple in his house and encourage him how to make his house into a temple and make his whole family Kṛṣṇa conscious? *Prabhupāda: And what is your material well-being? Everyone is going hundred miles for well-being. Is that well-being? Either they may go by motorcar or by train... And as soon as there is*-what is called?-bottle-neck, they become very much disturbed: "How to go to the office?" Where is well-being? Rāmeśvara: Say, the Christian religion... The Christian religion has millions of followers. *Prabhupāda: But what is the meaning of these followers? They do not understand anything. Simply by rubber*-stamp they are follower. Rāmeśvara: But if we can get a mass following, it is only possible by preaching to them little bit at a time. *Prabhupāda: Yes. By your ideal life, ideal teaching, you'll get. This Christian or any religion, what is the use of that? It's not at all religion. It's simply rubber*-stamp. Rāmeśvara: No. But if we had many people, then gradually we could help them become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: But I think they all... One thing that scares people is that we ask too much... Prabhupāda: Oh, that is... Rāmeśvara: ...at the beginning. We are asking too much. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: So if we ask just a little bit, then gradually we increase. Prabhupāda: No, little bit we say, that "You come, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasāda." Jagadīśa: "And read our books." Prabhupāda: Suppose you are illiterate, you cannot. But you can do this-"Come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam." Rāmeśvara: That is a big misunderstanding in America. People think that to be a Hare Kṛṣṇa you have to give up everything. Prabhupāda: That... Yes, you have to give up everything which is bad. Do you think drinking is very good? Rāmeśvara: (chuckling) No. Prabhupāda: So if I say, "You have to give it up," so what is the wrong there? Rāmeśvara: But they feel that unless they give up everything all at once, they cannot become members of the Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: No, you'll automatically give... Rāmeśvara: Gradually he'll automatically... Prabhupāda: He'll give up. Hari-śauri: (train starts to move again) First thing is to begin the positive process. Then the negative process will follow along. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. If he understands it is very nice to chant, dance, and take prasādam, they'll give up. Rāmeśvara: Many people think that if you become a Hare Kṛṣṇa you have to shave your head. Prabhupāda: That is very good. Rāmeśvara: But it scares them and it keeps them from joining us. Prabhupāda: No, you save so much barbers' expenses. (laughter) Hari-śauri: So much inconvenience for washing. Rāmeśvara: These are misunderstandings that confuse people. Prabhupāda: The whole life is misunderstanding, material life. Rāmeśvara: But we want them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's the main thing. Prabhupāda: Why they are envious of us? When we live very nicely, they are envious that "These people do not do anything, and they are living so nicely." Rāmeśvara: They will not be so envious if they see that people who dress in Western style and keep their families and keep their jobs are also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: We say... We say that, that we simply say, that "You change your consciousness." Rāmeśvara: Not change your dress, but change your consciousness. Prabhupāda: No, we never said. If you prefer that kind of dress, costly, you prefer it, but we are simplified. Rāmeśvara: It's our choice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: As a person becomes more purified, then he'll simplify himself anyway. And if he really cultivates a desire to... *Prabhupāda: Now, nowadays coat*-pant is very costly. If you can spend your money, costly dress, we have no objection. Then you have to earn more; you have to work more. Therefore we are simplified. Rāmeśvara: Ultimately, it is the best thing. Prabhupāda: If they want to come in that dress, come in. If you want, come in. Rāmeśvara: I have been studying this record business in the last month or two. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: I've been studying the record business in America. People spend more money on records than they do on books. In general people are buying more records than books. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Give them some seat. Is there any carpet? Bring something. Hari-śauri: What time do you want to take prasādam, Śrīla Prabhupāda? It's 8:25 now. Prabhupāda: Whenever... You take? Hari-śauri: Well, we'll all take in that other carriage, and you can eat undisturbed. I'll remain here or whatever you want. Prabhupāda: I may take little later. Hari-śauri: Well, we can take later on. Rāmeśvara: So I found out that people spend more money on records than on books in America. That means that if we sell our record in the store, it can bring us a lot of income. In general, people spend more money on records. Prabhupāda: So you get more income. For using it, let them come and take prasādam. Don't accumulate money. Rāmeśvara: No. Prabhupāda: Get money and spend it. Rāmeśvara: Prasāda distribution is the best thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: There was a big parade in Los Angeles called the Rose Bowl, one million people. So we made ten thousand bags of peanuts and raisins and called it "Govinda's Nuts 'n' Raisins." We were tossing it to the crowd, and they were going, "Hare Kṛṣṇa! Here! Kṛṣṇa!" They were begging for it. Prabhupāda: Just see. Rāmeśvara: We could have passed out prasāda for one million people if we had had enough money. Prabhupāda: Yes. Earn money like that. Rāmeśvara: It costs a lot of money. Prabhupāda: Either produce food in the farm or earn money and purchase, but give prasādam. Rāmeśvara: We saw it, that they know it was Kṛṣṇa prasāda, and they were standing up in the crowds, "Kṛṣṇa! Here!" and begging for it. Prabhupāda: (laughs) So they have at least chanted "Kṛṣṇa." That is our profit. Rāmeśvara: And everyone liked it. And we were giving it out for free. That they very much appreciated. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Everyone else is taking their money, but when we give them prasāda for free, they very much appreciate it. Prabhupāda: So do that. There is no need of accumulating money and pay income tax and botheration. Spend it. Always remain empty pocket. Rāmeśvara: So I was thinking to develop this record group so we can make lots of money. Prabhupāda: You make lots of money and spend lots of money. Don't keep it in the pocket. What is the use of keeping? No income. Rāmeśvara: So our only interest is to spend it as fast as we get it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Spend it for distribution. They'll say, "Kṛṣṇa, give us prasāda!" And that is our triumph. They chant and "Kṛṣṇa." That's all right. "Take prasāda." Rāmeśvara: So I'm encouraging them to make more records like the "Change of Heart." Prabhupāda: We are not dry, simply talking philosophy. "Take prasāda. Eat sumptuously." *Rāmeśvara: In America, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if people become followers of a particular music group, then they take their message and their life*-style very seriously. Just like when the people were following the Beatles, and then the Beatles became involved with meditation, so this made it very popular in America. If the group becomes... If the music group becomes popular, then whatever they do, everyone follows. So I am thinking that we can make this music group, Golden Avatar, very popular. Then everyone will find out that they believe in reincarnation and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everyone will follow. Prabhupāda: Yes, something "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa" music must be there. Rāmeśvara: Now, to make this group very popular, they have to have Western dress. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Rāmeśvara: That's no problem. Prabhupāda: No. *Rāmeśvara: And they have to have long hair or wigs, or else they grow it. But somehow or other, they cannot be shaven*-headed Hare Kṛṣṇaś. Prabhupāda: Long hair is not... We should not do that. Rāmeśvara: They have to have wigs then. Prabhupāda: Why wigs? Rāmeśvara: Because in America all the musicians have hair, because that way people become attracted to them. Prabhupāda: No, we cannot take hair. That is not possible. We cannot become hippies. Rāmeśvara: No, not hippies. So then, rather than growing their hair, they should wear wigs. Just like our book distributors do not grow their hair long, but they wear wigs. Prabhupāda: But do you mean to say unless you have long hairs, they will not hear your song? Rāmeśvara: Medium. Prabhupāda: That's not. If they like your song, it doesn't matter whether you have long hairs or not. Rāmeśvara: The main thing is they cannot be wearing śikhā and shaved head. Prabhupāda: That must be there. Rāmeśvara: But when they make public appearances, they have to be in disguise. Prabhupāda: Make public to become gentlemen. Formerly they had no long hairs. They dressed like gentlemen. That we cannot do. Rāmeśvara: So it doesn't have to be very long. But I don't think it will become popular unless they are in disguise, wearing Western clothes and a little bit of hair. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. But formerly your father, grandfather, they had no long hair. Rāmeśvara: No, they will not dress like hippie. They will dress nicely. Prabhupāda: Then that is allowed. But we cannot imitate the hippies. Rāmeśvara: No. I'm just saying that it is a little difficult if they wear their dhotī. *Prabhupāda: No, dhotī, I don't say. You have nice coat*-pant. I don't say that you have to... I never said that. You have adopted it. (laughs) I never said that "You put on dhotī." But those who are sannyāsīs, brahmacārīs, their dress is different. But it doesn't require that one has to become a sannyāsī. Hari-śauri: The wigs he's suggesting are just short ones, short hair wigs. Rāmeśvara: Yeah. As long as it's not hippy, it is all right. It has to be attractive. Gentlemen. I have taken this record, "Change of Heart," to the biggest record companies in America, and they are very encouraging. They think that we have got a very wonderful message. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. Rāmeśvara: They are astonished at the..., the words to the songs. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. Rāmeśvara: I think if this group is... If this is done... *Prabhupāda: Enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāra lāgi. Our message is to kill the māyā. This is wonderful message, undoubtedly. Enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāra lāgi, hari*-nāma mahā-mantra lao tumi māgi: "Take this hari-nāma." It is very important message. Rāmeśvara: In America, say a music group becomes popular, very popular. Then automatically, every time they make their record album, one million people will buy it in the stores without any salesmen. Automatically one million. It's considered very popular. Prabhupāda: Yes. So make records "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa." Rāmeśvara: And for each record our profit is $2.50. So $2.50 times one million records becomes millions of dollars. Prabhupāda: Spend it for prasāda distribution. Don't squander it. Every cent should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa, not for sense gratification. Rāmeśvara: Now, some of the money could be sent to India for ISKCON Food Relief. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: That would be very good. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That will make our movement very popular in India. Rāmeśvara: They're always complaining that there's not enough money for food distribution in India. Prabhupāda: So kindly send me as much as possible. Therefore these farming projects will be very nice. Rāmeśvara: That'll be great, if we can use the money... Do you think I should set up a separate account for the records, so that all the profit is used for food distribution? Prabhupāda: Why not? Very good idea. Rāmeśvara: So that will be a special means of raising money for prasāda. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: This idea will be very popular with the devotees. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So now you can distribute... Hari-śauri: Take prasāda... (indistinct) [break] (train stops) Rāmeśvara: That's the British propaganda, that they came to India and made India more civilized. Prabhupāda: This is civilization, that running, congested, hanging on. These rascals... Rāmeśvara: Their famous phrase was "The white man's burden." Prabhupāda: Unless they made such propaganda, how they could stay? They must give some plea that "I am staying for their benefit." That was the propaganda all through. And any Indian who would agree to say in the League of Nations and when there is conference, "Yes, we are so much benefited," he would be made secretary, governor. The flatterer, he would be made governor. Rāmeśvara: So they kicked the British out, but they still have the British system. Prabhupāda: They have learned this. They have been accustomed... And by nature they are not, I mean to say, dovetailed to this system of life. Hari-śauri: Somehow or another, they just can't do it. They can't live like that. Prabhupāda: And now we are going to Kumbha Mela, a religious assemble. In the Western countries you don't find so much. *Rāmeśvara: No. In the 1960's in America they tried to have such assemblies, but they simply were becoming naked and having drugs-LSD, marijuana*-in the name of spiritual festival. I remember very prominent festivals in America, but everyone was simply naked. They thought that was spiritual. Prabhupāda: Naked? Fully naked? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Hari-śauri: They would hold the festivals sometimes in the hills with a stream. It was very popular; everybody would go to the stream and bathe naked. And then the TV would come and film. There was one big one that they had in England, and the front pages on all the newspapers was one hippie couple that... Someone had spread some foam everywhere, and in the middle of the foam this hippie couple were naked having sex, and they put the picture in all the papers. This was love and peace. Prabhupāda: I have seen John... Hari-śauri: John Lennon. Prabhupāda: ...naked. Rāmeśvara: Naked. With his wife. Prabhupāda: That picture is in his sitting room. I was talking with him in his sitting room, and fireplace and... Of course, that Chandler Place(?), a very big and glorious picture. Hari-śauri: Cats and dogs. Rāmeśvara: That's changed. America has given that up a little bit. They do not have these big gatherings anymore. The hippie movement in America is stopped. Prabhupāda: What is the next movement? Hari-śauri: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughs) Rāmeśvara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. They're just waiting now. They are waiting for something to happen. Hari-śauri: All these religious, what they call the religious cults, came immediately after the hippies. That's the big thing now. There was the growth period for those. Now they're trying to destroy them. Of course, they won't destroy us, but they've succeeded in one or two other groups. [break] Prabhupāda: ...below one person.(?) In the name of religious men, because they are not civilized even, it is further, further. This is going on. Actually there was no such... Rāmeśvara: And another thing that came out of the hippie movement is this abortion. Because the whole thing... The slogan was "free sex." So now they have free sex. Hari-śauri: Women's liberation was another thing. *Rāmeśvara: All based on sex. Abortion, divorce*-everything related to sex has increased. Hari-śauri: They used to carry signs, "I want the control of my body," the women, the women's liberation. Prabhupāda: That is woman's liberation. Hari-śauri: Yeah. "I can do with my body whatever I like. Nobody can tell me what to do. If I want to kill my child, I can kill." [break] *Prabhupāda: The child has father's..., the life from father's property, and the mother is only giving you shelter. She is not the proprietor. Even in other's, womb of other's wife, a child is born... I give birth to a child in other's wife, that is my child. Mother is considered the field, kṣetra. But when I till the kṣetra, field, the production is mine. This idea. The land may be yours, but if I plow on it and produce food grains, that is mine. That is not yours. This is the... Even in other's wife, if somebody begets child, the child belongs to the father. There are many instances. [break] Mat-prāṇa-nāthas: "Still, you are My Lord." That is love. "My love is conditional. If you do to my liking, then I love you"*-that is not love. That is not love; that is business. That business is going on under the name of love. A man and woman-"If you have got pocket filled up with money, I love you. If you have got beauty, then I love you." That is not love. That is lust! They do not know what is love. Hari-śauri: They have no idea of actually who is God or what is God. They don't know... Prabhupāda: Yes. They make God under his condition. That is not God. God cannot be under your condition. Hari-śauri: God cannot have sixteen thousand wives. God cannot appear at all. Rāmeśvara: They say that if God had all of these things, then He would have revealed them in the Bible. Prabhupāda: Because you cannot, rascal, manage that. That is the difference between him and God. Kṛṣṇa had sixteen thousand wives and sixteen thousand palaces. You cannot maintain one apartment. Rāmeśvara: In the Bible... Prabhupāda: You tell them like that: "You are so poor that you are afraid to maintain even one wife. So how you can be equal with God?" Hari-śauri: His argument was that... Prabhupāda: No argument! This is fact! Rāmeśvara: Yes, this is fact. Hari-śauri: Yes. Prabhupāda: There is no question of argument. Rāmeśvara: No. He's not arguing that. Prabhupāda: You cannot do. You are so poor that you are afraid to marry because you have to take so much responsibility. Rāmeśvara: He wants to know, then, why didn't Jesus Christ say all these things about Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Jesus may be fool. That doesn't mean everyone should be fool. Rāmeśvara: They believe Jesus came to this world to teach people about God. *Prabhupāda: "Jesus... Jesus had to speak to rascals and fools like you. Therefore he did not speak." This is the argument. "Because you are such a fool that Jesus said, 'Thou shall not kill'*-your first business was to kill him. So you are so nice, advanced men. Now, what he'll speak to you? He knew that you are all rascals. Even the one word you cannot understand, 'Thou shall not kill.' So what you will understand? Therefore Jesus Christ did not say." Give them this answer. Jesus Christ was perfect, but because you are rascals, he did not say, because you could not understand even his one word. You are so intelligent. His commandment is "Thou shall not kill," but your business is to kill him first. How far you are advanced and civilized, just imagine. And you want perfect instruction. You cannot follow even one instruction. That is your position. In this way try to understand. "Jesus had to deal with rascals like you. Therefore he... Even ordinary moral principles, you could not, what to speak of other things." Actually that is the fact. Actually that is the fact. He had to deal with rascals and fools. Is that civilization, that first of all argue, "Thou shall not kill"? That means you were all rascals engaged in killing business. Is that civilized men? Why he said like that? Is that very good philosophy? Mean they were so low class that they had to be stopped first of all, these sinful activities. That also, they could not. This is their position. And for the last two thousand years they could not. Such nice brain. They could not understand even one instruction of Jesus Christ. And you are proud of becoming Christian, rascals. "You do not know what is Christianity, what is Jesus Christ. You are all rascals." Tell them like that. What do you think? Rāmeśvara: That's indefeatable, undefeatable argument. Prabhupāda: Yes. You could not understand. Rāmeśvara: "Thou shall not kill..." Prabhupāda: Although he spoke very cautiously, still you could not do it. Rāmeśvara: "Thou shall not commit adultery." Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: It's a very good counterattack, that "You try to criticize us, but actually what is your position?" They have no position. That man, he was trying to criticize Kṛṣṇa as being a concoction or whatever, but we can practically see that his own religion is completely useless. Prabhupāda: No, no, that also I have given. Kṛṣṇa might have hundreds and thousands, but where is the pregnancy and contraception? Rāmeśvara: And abortion. Prabhupāda: So if sex life without this botheration, it is welcome. We welcome that. Sex is enjoyment; that is all right. But here it is condemned because it is entailed with so many botherations. Hari-śauri: We can practically establish both points. *Prabhupāda: Just like sex life is enjoyment, but a person who is suffering from tuberculosis*-his death. He'll die if he indulges in sex life. That is medical science. "So it is condemned in the material world, not in the spiritual world. If you have good health, you can enjoy sex life. But you have tuberculosis? You'll die. Your sex life is death, and their sex life is life. That you cannot understand. You have such a poor brain that you could not follow even ordinary moral instruction of Jesus Christ." Answer should be given like that. "If you remain with your poor brain, don't try to argue. Be satisfied, your poor doggish brain, hoggish brain. You are like pigs and dogs. What you can understand about religion? First of all try to train yourself to be free from the sinful activities. Then you'll understand what is religion." Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam [Bg. 7.28]. Ultimately, a person, sinful man, cannot go to the kingdom of God. Is it not? First of all stop this sex life; then talk of God. It is a fact. When the order of Jesus Christ, "Thou shall not kill," for the last two thousand years the rascals have never stopped killing. They are simply increasing slaughterhouse. And... So they are so poor in understanding, they say animal has no soul. Rāmeśvara: That is their excuse. Prabhupāda: But who cares for this excuse? It is not scientific. Is there any difference, anatomy and physiology, of the animals and the... Rāmeśvara: They do not know what the soul means. Prabhupāda: That's it. Now, when there is opportunity, condemn them like anything. It is opportunity to expose them. Hari-śauri: We should do that, expose them? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? When they are attacking, you must attack. Hari-śauri: Yes. Attack them. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is very practical: "Yes, Kṛṣṇa enjoyed sex. But where is abortion? Where is contraceptive pill?" Hari-śauri: Actually, by practical example we can show that by following Kṛṣṇa, so many people are giving up intoxication, giving up so many sinful activities. But by following your Christian religion, it's not done them any good whatsoever. It's not changed their lives whatsoever. This man, he described our movement as very dangerous. On the radio he said, "This is dangerous," because we're trying to establish Kṛṣṇa as God and He's not stated in the Bible, and therefore we are very dangerous. Prabhupāda: Christ is described as son of God, but where is the father? That means you are so rascal, you do not care to understand the father. And we are presenting the father, the father of Christ. And you are condemning. You do not know who is the father of Christ. Rāmeśvara: His argument was that if God wanted Himself to be known as Kṛṣṇa, He would have... *Prabhupāda: But you do not know the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means "all*-attractive." That is God. That is God. Rāmeśvara: Yes. I tried to explain. But he said Kṛṣṇa means that person who appeared in India five thousand years ago. That is Kṛṣṇa. So he said if God is Kṛṣṇa, then there would be some evidence in the Bible, but there is no evidence. Prabhupāda: There is ev... There is evidence. Because... But you are so fool that you do not inquire, "If the Christ is son of God, who is God?" They never inquires. Why did you not inquire? Rāmeśvara: He said that God spoke to Moses. God did not tell Moses that He was Kṛṣṇa. He told Moses that He is Jehovah. Prabhupāda: Did Christ say that "Jehovah is my father"? Rāmeśvara: That makes it very clear. Hari-śauri: I can't remember ever seeing... Jesus never used a name. He only spoke about "my father." Prabhupāda: And who is that father? Why did you not...? So here is the father. You should be obliged to us that we are bringing... Hari-śauri: There are so many names anyway. Prabhupāda: Then why not Kṛṣṇa? *Hari-śauri: Yes, exactly. Just like Allah means "the great one," so Kṛṣṇa means "the all*-attractive one." It's the same God. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa was proved, and still He is proved. Who is reading others' book all over the world? Therefore He is God. Where is that book so respected as Bhagavad*-gītā? Who is printing so many books? Not even Bible. They respected Bible. Why the foreigners are reading Bhagavad-gītā? That is the proof that Kṛṣṇa is God. During the Christmas festival we sold our books greatest number in the history. How many copies Bible you have sold? That is the proof. Here is God. Otherwise why Christians should purchase Bhagavad-gītā during Christmas holiday? And because Kṛṣṇa is God, therefore you have come to fight. Who is going to fight with Jehovah? Who is going to fight with Jehovah movement? *Hari-śauri: Well, just like in the Middle East area, if they want to describe God or if they want to glorify God, they refer to Him as the Almighty One. And that word that means "Almighty One" is Allah. So if in India they want to glorify God by calling Him the All*-attractive One, and that word is Kṛṣṇa, then what is the wrong? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: This is a problem. Because they're such mūḍhas, as soon as there's a name and a form, they immediately associate with material nature, material personality. Prabhupāda: Give me little tangerine. Hari-śauri: Tangerine? Rāmeśvara: I was just telling Jagadīśa that you said you were confident that the Indian government understands that this movement is turning the whole world towards Indian culture. So it seems logical that one day it will endorse us. *Prabhupāda: They are endorsing. They stopped cow*-killing. Rāmeśvara: They are endorsing? *Prabhupāda: They have stopped cow*-killing. *Rāmeśvara: They stopped cow*-killing. Prabhupāda said that it is directly our movement... Prabhupāda: It is not Vinobha Bhave. It is I. And they are silent. Even Gandhi did not care to stop. Now stopped. Rāmeśvara: They have stopped it because they see we are getting so much support? Prabhupāda: Certainly. (pause) (aside:) No, no. One skinned. (pause) So you have all answers? Rāmeśvara: Many answers. You have all the answers. *Prabhupāda: No. Therefore I am speaking you how to answer. (long pause) So much land lying vacant. Yajñād bhavanti parjanyaḥ. There is no yajña. Therefore there is no rain. [break] ...and it will increase. Because the people will increase their godlessness, so the rainfall will stop. Now lick up your motorcar. This is going on. Anavṛṣṭya durbhikṣa dāra*-pīḍitaḥ. One side, anavṛṣṭi, there is no food grain, and government taxation. People will be so harassed, they will leave their hearth and home and go to the forest. Cannot manage. [break] ...God awakening your country to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Someway or other, there is agitation. This agitation must go on and then turn it towards favorable time. Agitation is there. That is good. (japa) [break] *Rāmeśvara: They say that in the Vedas, Viṣṇu comes first and Kṛṣṇa is expansion of Viṣṇu, and we have concocted that Kṛṣṇa is the adi*-puruṣa. Prabhupāda: But he accepted that? Rāmeśvara: No, we defeated that argument. Prabhupāda: No, no... [break] The man who says that, so ask him that "You accept this, that Viṣṇu, there is, Supreme, and Viṣṇu's incarnation is Kṛṣṇa?" Rāmeśvara: He accepted it. Prabhupāda: Then I accept you. Then you accept Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa, or this Veda.(?) Then I accept you. So there is no fight. You accept Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. We accept. That's all. *Hari-śauri: Another one was that even the president of India, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he commented in the Bhagavad*-gītā that you should not worship Kṛṣṇa, that the Bhagavad-gītā is not for worshiping Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is..., that rascal, Radhakrishnan says. Vyāsadeva does not say. Arjuna does not say. Hari-śauri: But he was the president of India. Prabhupāda: President was therefore kicked out. māyā has kicked out on his face. (laughter) Who cares for Radhakrishnan? In India, who cares for Radhakrishnan? They worship Kṛṣṇa. So therefore they have urinated on the face of Radhakrishnan. Say like that, (laughter) that "Indian people have passed urine on his head, and they are worshiping Kṛṣṇa. This is Radhakrishnan." Tell him like that. "Who cares for Radhakrishnan?" Do you mean to say they have stopped worshiping Kṛṣṇa in so many millions of temples? That is the proof: they have passed urine on the face of Radhakrishnan. Is that all right? Hari-śauri: (laughing) Yes. *Rāmeśvara: And I found an article in the Time magazine about another translator of Bhagavad*-gītā, Christopher Isherwood. Prabhupāda: He is rascal, another rascal. Rāmeśvara: They have reported that he is a homosexual. Prabhupāda: Just see. Now, who cares for all these nonsense? *Rāmeśvara: In regards to brainwashing, they claim that our life*-style tends to take the devotee and isolate him from the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. We hate to mix with you. No gentleman tries to mix with loafers. In England still, the rich quarter is different from the poor quarter. Is it not? Hari-śauri: Not so much. It was though, formerly, very strongly. Prabhupāda: Yes. Aristocratic will never live... Even in America, they don't like to live with the blacks. Rāmeśvara: No. Prabhupāda: (aside:) That child...? So that separation... Crows will not like to live with the ducks and white swans. And white swans will not like to live with the crows. That is natural division. "Birds of the same feather flock together." Jagadīśa: And honest men don't like to associate with thieves and criminals. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is natural. We are not interested even with these daily newspapers. We are interested Bhagavad*-gītā. We don't keep any news. We know the dogs are barking. That's all. But that does not mean we have to mix with the dogs. Jagadīśa: If you know that someone is committing criminal activities, then if you associate with them, you'll also become implicated. Prabhupāda: Yes. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. Rāmeśvara: They have a list of five or six conditions, and they say if all those conditions are there, then it is a suitable atmosphere for brainwashing. And they say we are imposing those conditions on our members. *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are brainwashing from bad to good. That is our business. We are washing the brain from all rascaldom. That is our business. You are... Your brain is filled up with all rubbish things: meat*-eating and illicit sex, gambling. So we are washing them. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hrdy antaḥ-stho abhadrāṇi [SB 1.2.17]. Abhadrānī washing. Abhadrāṇi means bad things. The bad things should be washed off. Don't you cleanse your home? Don't you cleanse your room? Is not that brainwashing? So if you wash your room very cleansed, who blames you? But you are so rascal that "Why you are washing this garbage?" you are protesting. You are such an intelligent man. We are washing the garbage; you are protesting, "Why you are washing the garbage?" This is your intelligence. But intelligent men wash the garbage. That is the law of nature, cleanse. That we are doing. According to Vedic civilization, you are actually untouchable. Now we have come to touch you; therefore wash you must first. You are untouchable. In Indian civilization, dog is untouchable, and that is your best friend. So you are not touchable. Therefore we have to wash you. And unless your brain is washed, you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. So it is necessary. Is that all right? Dog is your best friend. In India dog is untouchable. So "Man is known by his company." If your best friend is dog, then what you are? We can understand your position because you sleep with dog, you eat with dog, your best friend is dog, so what you are? You must be washed. It is a fact. Every woman, every man, has some dog. Jagadīśa: Dog or cat. *Prabhupāda: Mostly dog. So "Man is known by his company." Your constant company is dog, so what you are? These are the way. Actually, according to Vedic... Why they do not allow Europeans in the Jagannātha temple? Because they are untouchable. According to Vedic civilization, Europeans are untouchable. Muslims and..., untouchable. Not only foreigners, even in their own country, those who are not very cleansed, they are untouchable. Another's eatable things, they're untouchable. Just like hog. If you give him halavā, he will not take it. He will eat stool. Therefore hog is so abominable. Similarly, in your country there are so many nice foodstuffs. Milk is so abundant. You do not know how to utilize milk. You are cutting the poor animal and the rotten flesh you are... You do not know how to utilize the milk. Milk is nothing but blood. Those who are eating, drinking milk with different varieties of preparation, they are also utilizing the blood. But you are drinking blood and flesh directly. You do not know how to keep the animals alive and supply you constantly the blood and eat it.(?) (Utilize?) That you do not know. You are so uncivilized. The man in the jungle, they eat meat because they do not know*-they are not civilized-how to utilize the by-products. So you're now in the same position. You do not know how to utilize the blood of cow scientifically. You are so uncivilized. You become... What is milk? The milk is nothing but blood. Jagadīśa: Even in the Bible... Prabhupāda: No, no. Apart from Bible, I am speaking from practical point of view. What is milk? Milk is blood. If the mother is unhealthy, anemic, you cannot keep. It dries away.(?) Milk is transformed from the blood. That's a fact. Now our cows in New Vrindaban, they are supplying more milk than in other farms. So you do not know how to utilize blood. You are so uncivilized. And you are claiming to be civilized. You are untouchable. You do not know what is the... Yes, in our New Vrindaban the men from other farms, they come. They are surprised. "Milk can give, this much?"(?) You know that? They are uncivilized, cutthroat. And therefore they are now eating better. You are not civilized. Don't talk of anything. First of all be civilized. Give up sin, sinful activities. Then come to understand what is God. Jagadīśa: In the Kṛṣṇa book you describe that the only person who can't understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the killer of the cow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Animal. Why cow? Any animal. Rāmeśvara: When we argue like that, they cannot say anything. Prabhupāda: We must. "No, you have taken Dr. Radhakrishnan authority. Has he commented on Bible? Why not? That is not even worth commenting on." You have to attack like that. Hari-śauri: If President Nixon had written a commentary on the Bible, no one in America would accept it. Then why should they accept Radhakrishnan's? *Prabhupāda: No, Radhakrishnan may say so, but who has accepted? You are, because you are a fool. Same argument, that people have passed urine on his face, and they are worshiping. They have not stopped Kṛṣṇa worshiping because Radhakrishnan has said, restriction. (?) Who cares for him? Vṛndāvana, there are five thousand temples. Every day thousands of people are coming. We have started Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple very recently, and thousands of men are coming. Who cares for Radhakrishnan? Daye mane nāpa ni more (?) "Nobody cares for him; he becomes leader." What is the value of such leader? If somebody cares for that person, then he's leader. Nobody cares for him? He's leader for you because you are a rascal. You do not know anything. So he may be leader for men like you, but India... Nobody cares for him. Is it not? Who cares for Radhakrishnan? Hari-śauri: Nobody mentions Radhakrishnan. *Prabhupāda: Who cares for Vivekananda? Who cares for Dayananda? Nobody cares. They are doing their own business. Still, daily two lakhs of contributions in Vaikuṇṭhanātha temple, Tirupati, still. Who is paying their money? Ordinary payers. Who cares for Radhakrishnan? India is not so fool that by the words of Radhakrishnan they will stop worshiping Kṛṣṇa, will not worship Kṛṣṇa. India, although poverty*-stricken, illiterate, but they have got their still... All, millions of people, will come in this Mela. Who cares for Radhakrishnan? There are so many atheists came and gone, things are going on as it is. This is culture. Rāmeśvara: Now in the Western countries, the standard of culture and education is coming from the idea of the Renaissance in Europe. *Prabhupāda: That is not culture. That is not culture. As soon as you change, that means it is not culture. It is mano*-dharma, mental concoction. Culture is never changed, Renaissance and (sic:) Fennaissance. *Rāmeśvara: This is something that has been constant for many hundreds of years, the idea that a man is learned when he is well*-learned, when he is educated in many different fields-literature, art, music. Prabhupāda: That does not mean the original culture will be lost. That is not culture. *Rāmeśvara: No. But this is their argument, that the standard in America is that you become learned in different fields: science, music, art, literature. But in our Hare Kṛṣṇa movement we are isolating all these things and simply reading one set of literature*-Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: And therefore our people cannot speak about art, music. Prabhupāda: Yes. We want to stop your nonsense. That is our mission. Those who are intelligent, they have taken. And you also take. It will take some time. Rāmeśvara: Another big argument is regarding the children. They say that "You believe in free choice. So suppose the children grow up and they want to go to college. But you have not sent them to a public school. Therefore they are not eligible for going to college." Prabhupāda: No, it is... They are saved from becoming like you or hippies. You'll become hippie after going to the college, so they are saved. You'll become naked and you'll have, like cats and dogs, sex on the street. But these children are saved. Rāmeśvara: But what if they change later on in their life? Prabhupāda: They have become Kṛṣṇa conscious from the very beginning. That is the perfection of life. They are perfect from the very beginning of their life. And you are going to school, college; you are becoming most uncivilized, cats and dogs. So what is the value of this education? Phalena means result. Result is hippie. So what is the use of Western... Stop all these colleges and universities. The sooner they are stopped, it is better for the human beings. We want to stop it. Rāmeśvara: Of course, if we tell them that, then they will think that we are anarchists. Prabhupāda: First of all you say that we want to stop this nonsense, that is the name of education producing hippies. We want to stop it. You may take us whatever you like. We want gentlemen, not this hogs' and dogs' naked dance. You are hogs and dogs; you accept. But we cannot accept. We are birds of the same feather. We are cleansed. Let them become hogs and dogs. But the civilized(?) thing must go on. So we want to stop this. Is that education? Rāmeśvara: Now they say if we are thinking of our members to be gentlemen, then why is it when they go to the airports they are bothering so many people? Prabhupāda: They are not bothering; they are educating. You take... A rascal, when he is advised... A thief when he's advised, "Kindly do not become a thief," he takes it botheration, but that is good advice. Rāmeśvara: They say it is invasion of privacy. Prabhupāda: Eh? Why privacy? Rāmeśvara: They say every man has the right to think the way he wants. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I have go the right to think like that. Rāmeśvara: So if I don't want to hear your philosophy, why are you imposing? Prabhupāda: It is not imposing. It is good philosophy. We are canvassing, "Take it. You'll be benefited." And they are being benefited. Those who are reading, they are being benefited. Just like we are canvassing. We are Americans. You are not benefited. Therefore you are... Our Guru Mahārāja, Indian, he is not coming. We are doing, because we are benefited. We know we are benefited. Therefore it must be spread. That is our success. "Good thing must be given." Why you are advertising big, big order(?), "Please come and purchase Ford car," "Purchase Chevrolet car"? Yearly. Why you are canvassing? Rāmeśvara: Because we think it is nice. To make money. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Why you are imposing your so*-called goodness to others and spending so much money? Why you are doing? Rāmeśvara: It is not physical. It is just mental. Prabhupāda: Well, physical, mental... That's right. You are so intelligent that you make distinction between physical and mental. They're all manifestation(?). You are so intelligent. Without mental, is there any physical? Then why you engage psychologist? There may be physical madman. Why you take him at psychologist? Why? Now you're discriminating mental and physical. If mental has nothing to do with physical, then why you employ psychologist to cure a madman from physical violence? You are so fool. Without mental pain, there is no physical pain. Without mental derangement, there is no physical disturbance. Who commits suicide? Who commits murder unless he's mentally deranged? You are very intelligent, that you want to make differentiation between physical and mental. There is differentiation. But cure physically.(?) Naturally they'll become sound. Otherwise why so many psychologists, psychiatrists, are employed in your country? Rāmeśvara: It is a booming business, big business. *Prabhupāda: Our business is sai vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ [SB 9.4.18]. First of all is mentality. Man-manā mad-bhakto. Mental cure, then physically devotee. "Always think of Me." This is the cure, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. Beginning: always think of Kṛṣṇa. This is the treatment. It is proved. Mentally he'll be cured. And then physically after. Nice (indistinct). They do not know how things are happening. (japa) Thinking, feeling, willing. First of all thinking, then feeling, then willing, then working. [break] ...and spending for military strength. They are not performing yajña, so how there will be rainfall? There will be warfare, devastation. Most rubbish civilization, modern misleading, soul-killing. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Very difficult to live with them. Still, we have to do this Kṛṣṇa's business. So we have to do our business. Let the dogs bark on. We don't care for it. If we remain sincere to Kṛṣṇa, that is our victory, not the result. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. We have to act according to direction of Kṛṣṇa, that much. We want to see good result. Even there is no good result, we don't mind. We must be sincere to Kṛṣṇa that "We have done our best." That's all. Without cheating Kṛṣṇa. That is our duty. As servant, we shall not cheat the master. Result, no result*-that depends on Kṛṣṇa. We should not be sorry if there is not result. Never mind. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that "I have brought to Benares hari-nāma, but here they are full of Māyāvādīs. So if it is not sold, all right, I shall take it back." Caitanya Mahāprabhu said. So we should not be anxious whether the things are sold or not. But we must do our best canvassing work: "Please take it." That is our duty. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... [break] *Rāmeśvara: ...mukta*-saṅgaḥ samācara: "Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṇu has to be performed. Otherwise, work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kunti, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage." Should I read the purport? Purport. "Since one has to work even for the simple maintenance of the body, the prescribed duties for a particular social position and quality are so made that the purpose can be fulfilled. Yajña means Lord Viṣṇu or sacrificial performances. All sacrificial performances also are meant for the satisfaction of Lord Viṣṇu. The Vedas enjoin: yajño vai viṣṇuḥ. In other words, the same purpose is served whether one performs prescribed yajñas or directly serves Lord Viṣṇu. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is therefore performance of yajña as it is prescribed in this verse. The varṇāśrama institution also aims at this for satisfying Lord Viṣṇu. Varnāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58] (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 3.8.8.). Therefore one has to work for the satisfaction of Viṣṇu. Any other work done in this material world will be a cause of bondage, for both good and evil work have their reactions, and any reaction binds the performer. Therefore one has to work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness to satisfy Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu, and while performing such activities one is in a liberated stage. This is the great art of doing work, and in the beginning this process requires very expert guidance. One should therefore act very diligently under the expert guidance of a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa, or under the direct instruction of Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself, under whom Arjuna had the opportunity to work. Nothing should be performed for sense gratification, but everything should be done for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. This practice will not only save one from the reaction of work but will also gradually elevate one to transcendental loving service of the Lord, which alone can raise one to the kingdom of God." [break] Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad *Gītā*, there are many, but why ours is selling so many? Because we have named "As It Is". Is that the reason? Rāmeśvara: The main reason is because our men are pushing. Prabhupāda: That is the reason. Hari-śauri: For the colleges, they actually accept the superior quality, but for the general class of men, it is not a book that they would ordinarily buy. Prabhupāda: Canvassing. Canvassing. Rāmeśvara: Yes, because we're canvassing. [break] "While we are living, let it be comfortable." Prabhupāda: So, why don't you make a solution that you'll not die? Then it is perfect. Rāmeśvara: For the colleges, they actually accept the superior quality, but for the general class of men, it is not a book that they would ordinarily buy. Prabhupāda: Canvassing. Canvassing. Rāmeśvara: Yes, because we're canvassing. [break] "While we are living, let it be comfortable." Prabhupāda: So, why don't you make a solution that you'll not die? Then it is perfect. Rāmeśvara: "We are working on it." Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then kick on your face. "We are working on it." Rāmeśvara: But in the meantime, it should be as convenient as possible to live. Prabhupāda: This is all childish. We cannot accept it. Madmen. In the history there is no such thing, and you are trying. And we have to believe it. These things are believed by rascals, and it is proposed by rascals. Rascals believe it. No intelligence at all. Rāmeśvara: In America everyone has a very nice house with home entertainment by television and radio. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then why they are lying on the street? They have got house, then why they are... Rāmeśvara: Big car... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Why, in the Bowery Street, they are lying on the street in stool and urine? Why? Rāmeśvara: Formerly they were doing that, but now again they are just living nicely. Prabhupāda: Living nicely on the street. They have no nice place even. What is that? Lions? Go pay one dollar and live there? Jagadīśa: YMCA. Prabhupāda: Something like that. They have no place to live. At night... Whole day they lie down on the street and beg and drink, and at night they pay one dollar and live. Rāmeśvara: That's a very small minority of the people. Prabhupāda: Well, there is? Why? You are so rich country, why? Why it is happening? Not small minority. Rāmeśvara: And we have our vacations. We can travel anywhere in the world and visit, sightsee. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you cannot say that everyone is very rich. That is not... We admit your contribution, but... The other day I was saying that aeroplane is contribution, but it is not safe. So long it is flying, it is all right, but any moment... Similarly, this civilization will be contribution like that. It is not safe. Because this life, you are enjoying very good house, very good society, but next life, if you are going to be a tree by nature's law, then what is the value of your this life? Rāmeśvara: "But I believe in God. I go to church every Sunday, and I confess." Prabhupāda: But you go to church, but you don't do anything what God says. Rāmeśvara: "I am taught that God gave us all of these fruits to enjoy." Prabhupāda: Not to follow His advice. You are so great devotee that you simply enjoy God's gifts, but what He says, you don't follow. You are such a great devotee. "I enjoy my father's property, but I don't care for his advice." (aside:) Ask your mother to learn how to make kachoris from Kulādri. Is that all right? (train slowing) Bulahanipur.(?) Somebody wrote me a letter from this place, Bulahanipur. Rāmeśvara: (to child) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hare Kṛṣṇa bol! Child: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So give him something. You have got fruit? Fruit? Yes. Rāmeśvara: Ek minute. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bolo Hare Kṛṣṇa. Child: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: They'll remember that Kṛṣṇa fed them. I think we should clean up. Hari-śauri: There should be a sweeper somewhere. Prabhupāda: No, we do our own business. Why do you wait for sweeper? Hari-śauri: Yeah, we need a broom. Prabhupāda: You take one paper, that black one there. Jagadīśa: Do you want to take rest, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. Hari-śauri: (to child) Finished? It's too hot? He can't eat the samosa. It's too hot. He can't eat the samosa. It's too hot. Prabhupāda: Oh. So is there any remaining in...? Hari-śauri: Puffed rice is finished. But he can't eat the samosa. Prabhupāda: So you can eat. He can take this thing. Hand. Keep that paper and apply it in service. (sweeping noise) Yes. (sounds of door opening, closing, train starts again) The bathroom is free? Hari-śauri: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is real religion. Religion cannot be "your religion" and "our religion." Rāmeśvara: Yes. They were saying in essence that only the Jew or the Christian, he can represent God. Hare Kṛṣṇa, he does not represent God. Prabhupāda: Now let us talk why he cannot or why you are the only. First of all you have to ascertain what is religion. Then it will be decided who has got the stock. Let the Christian or the Jews answer this question: What is religion? Rāmeśvara: They cannot answer. Prabhupāda: Then you have no religion. Rāmeśvara: They do not know the answer. They'll speculate. Prabhupāda: Therefore there is no religion. Rāmeśvara: The Christian will say, "The Jew has no answer." And the Christian, he will say, "Religion means to accept Jesus Christ as your savior." Prabhupāda: Why? Rāmeśvara: "Because he came to earth as the son of God. He died for your sins." Prabhupāda: Therefore religion means what is given by God, either directly or through His son or through His servant. That is religion. So if you do not know who is God and what He has given, then where is your religion? Religion means the law given by God. So you should know who is God and what law He has given. Then you have religion. You say you do not know what is God. Rāmeśvara: This man was saying that in the Bible there is a description of God speaking to Moses and Abraham, and He identified Himself as Jehovah, not Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is the main point, that what God said. Rāmeśvara: What God said? He told Abraham to go to Israel and to worship only Him. He said, "There shall be no other Gods. Just Me." And then He told Moses the Ten Commandments. Prabhupāda: So God said that... God must say. So you say God: Jehovah; and we say God: Kṛṣṇa. What is the wrong? Rāmeśvara: "The wrong is that Kṛṣṇa was a man who lived on earth five hundred thousand years ago and..." Prabhupāda: So Jehovah was God. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that means He was God, you are man, how you are hearing from Him? Rāmeśvara: Because it's in the Bible. Prabhupāda: It's in the Bible. Then, that whatever is the... We can say the same way, "It is in the Bhagavad *Gītā*." What is the wrong there? Rāmeśvara: What can be said? *Prabhupāda: "This is the Bible," and "This is the Bhagavad*-gītā." Rāmeśvara: "But history documents that Kṛṣṇa came to earth as a man." Prabhupāda: Yes. So do you mean to say God cannot come as man? And Jehovah came as God? Rāmeśvara: "But in the Bible God revealed a certain aspect of Himself, and the personality of Kṛṣṇa seems to be very different from this." Prabhupāda: In which way different? Rāmeśvara: "Because He had all these affairs with the gopīs. He was very different." Prabhupāda: God will be just like... Rāmeśvara: "And He was a king with sixteen thousand wives. That seems to be very different from the God that is described in the Bible." Prabhupāda: So if God... What is described in the Bible, God symptom, that he has no power to enjoy sixteen thousand wives? He's limited? Rāmeśvara: No. He's unlimited. Prabhupāda: Then, sixteen thousand, sixteen millions He can have. Why, if He's unlimited? What is wrong there? If He's unlimited, why sixteen thousand? If He marries sixteen million, sixteen billion, still, it is not sufficient. Otherwise there is no meaning of unlimited. Why you restrict God to sixteen or one? God is under your restriction, and He's still unlimited? That means you do not know what is God. You do not know what is God. You are mistaken. Rāmeśvara: But very often they will say, "It is not a question of religion that we are concerned with. It is a question of brainwashing and mind control. Your chanting so many hours a day, it's hypnotizing." Prabhupāda: So, what is to you? That is my business. Why do you bother yourself? Rāmeśvara: "But you are imposing it on so many young people." Prabhupāda: We must impose. You impose they will not chant. That is your business. We must impose. That is my business. If you have power, you stop them. Rāmeśvara: "But you're not giving them a chance to think when they chant so many hours." Prabhupāda: Why shall I give you chance? You are thieves. You are coming to kidnap. Why shall I give you chance? You say to them, as we are saying, that "You chant." They are chanting. You make brainwash. You ask them, "Don't chant." That is your business. But that you cannot do. Rāmeśvara: "But by this chanting, they develop a kind of blind faith, and they stop thinking." Prabhupāda: So, what is to you and to your father? Let them do that. Everyone has got freedom. Rāmeśvara: But they say that that takes away freedom, because it takes away freedom to think. Prabhupāda: So that is a controversy, that you want to take his freedom and still, you are accusing that, that way. Rāmeśvara: Yes, that's actually the fact. The want to take their freedom, but they are accusing us. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you are sane man, let us sit down. First of all ascertain what is religion. Then we shall see whether your religion is genuine or my religion is genuine. First of all ascertain. Let there be an assembly, that "What is religion?" "We say that the law given by God is religion. Now you refute this." Nobody can manufacture religion. "God is one, and whatever He has given, law, that is religion. Now you refute it?" Give them this challenge. Rāmeśvara: "Well we may accept that the Kṛṣṇa movement is a religion, but..." *Prabhupāda: Apart from name*-name is not very important. In your country you say water. I say jala, pānīya. Does it mean that because I say pānīya, it will be different thing? In different countries, in different societies, things are... We say am, you say mango. Does it mean the thing, substance, is different? Rāmeśvara: No. Prabhupāda: Then why do the rascals say like that? Because we say God, Kṛṣṇa, therefore He's not. Why is... This is nonsense. I can say in my language, you can say in yours, but God is one. That you have to accept. Rāmeśvara: One of their standard arguments is... Prabhupāda: Now, this is... First of all defeat that, that "Why do you stress on name? In different countries, in different societies, the same thing may be called by different names." Rāmeśvara: Well, they're saying that the substance is different. Kṛṣṇa is one... Prabhupāda: The substance is different; then God... There is no God. Either Kṛṣṇa is not God, Jehovah is not God. Just like gold... Rāmeśvara: They say that because Kṛṣṇa displayed His activities when He was here... Prabhupāda: Yes. God will play. That is God. God is not dead. Your God is dead. Our God is alive. That is the difference. God must be alive. Why God should be dead? [break] So you are under God's control. Then you say whether Jehovah is God or Kṛṣṇa is God. First of all you must know. You must let us know what do you mean by God. If you describe, "I mean God... by the word God, I mean this," then see whether it is applicable to Jehovah or to Kṛṣṇa. It is not the name. It is the person and the symptom. Just like water is liquid. So you say water, I say jal. But the liquidity of water is the same. So first of all you know what is the nature of God. Then you may say "Jehovah," I may say "Kṛṣṇa," another may say something else. It doesn't matter. Water is water. That is liquid. That's all. So first of all ascertain what is the symptom of God. Can we challenge them that "What is the symptom? How do you know that here is God?" Just like we understand here is water. Rāmeśvara: Yes, but their idea is all nonsense. Prabhupāda: Therefore prove that "You are rascal, nonsense. You do not know what is God." Rāmeśvara: They think that God has nothing to do. He does everything by His thinking. Just like in the Bible it says... Prabhupāda: That why do you say nothing to do, rascal? That is doing. He is doing by thinking; that means... Rāmeśvara: Yes. It is said in the Bible He created the world just by His thoughts. *Prabhupāda: That means-that's all right*-that God is so powerful that He can do by His thinking. We also admit. But that does not mean God is not doing. But He is doing in a finer way. You rascal, you do in a grosser way. God does in a finer way. But that does not mean God is inactive. Rāmeśvara: And he was criticizing our description of God coming as a boar... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is God. Rāmeśvara: ...and God coming as a tortoise... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is God. Rāmeśvara: ...and a fish, half man, half lion. Prabhupāda: That means God. Rāmeśvara: He was criticizing that this is mythology. Prabhupāda: So that means you do not know what is God. God can come as He likes. That is God. But you rascal, you do not know what is God; therefore you are restricting, "He cannot come in this way." That is your restriction. Why God should be restricted? (knock) Yes? Rāmeśvara: Come in. Indian man: Gurudeva, this carriage foreman is having some message from Gupta Saheb. Indian man (2): Namaskāra. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Namaskāra. [break] So rascal... [break] God is unlimited, and you are a teeny man. Why you want to limit God by your dictation? Rāmeśvara: He says yes, it's possible... Prabhupāda: How it is possible? Rāmeśvara: Because God is unlimited, these things are possible, but... Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that He cannot come as fish, He cannot...? Rāmeśvara: Because if He wanted us to believe in these things He would have told us on Mount Sinai, and He would have told us through Jesus Christ. Jesus said "I am the only way..." Prabhupāda: But that I have already answered, that... Rāmeśvara: Jesus Christ says, "I am the only way." Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. But Jesus Christ did not say to you because you are rascal. You cannot follow even his one instruction. That is the answer. It is not the foolishness of Jesus Christ. Because you are so rascal, you cannot understand it. Therefore he avoided you rascals. Because whatever he has said, you cannot follow. So what you will understand? Therefore he stopped speaking. Jagadīśa: They killed him after three years. Prabhupāda: Yes. You are so rascal that his personal instruction is... Rāmeśvara: Three years? Jagadīśa: Three years' preaching and they killed him. Prabhupāda: Why he will waste his time to rascals like you? And I understand that Jesus Christ said that "I have to say many thing, but I did not say..." like that. Rāmeśvara: He said, "I have more to tell that ye cannot bear." Prabhupāda: You cannot? Rāmeśvara: Bear. Prabhupāda: Means "you cannot understand." Rāmeśvara: Yes. He also said... Jagadīśa: Or "you cannot accept. You cannot bear." Rāmeśvara: He also said, "Do not cast your pearls before swine." I think he was talking about them also. Prabhupāda: Yes. "You are swine; so therefore he did not say." You quote this: "But you are swine; therefore he did not say." Rāmeśvara: New interpretation. *Prabhupāda: Yes. "You are swine." Yes, they are swine. Svarka*-vaca.(?) In India they say. Tell them like that, "You are swine. You cannot understand things. Therefore he did not say." That's a fact. If you are not swine, then God said, "Thou shall not kill," you killed him, so what you'll understand about God? You did not allow him to live. You are such a great swine. And his disciple... Jagadīśa: Judas Prabhupāda: Huh? Cheated him. He was such swine. He was such big swine. Rāmeśvara: And right after he was killed, anyone who followed him, they made the lions eat them. It's common knowledge that the early Christians were dragged into a big arena, and the lions were let out of their cages and devoured them. And the people were cheering. The public was invited to the event, and they were cheering. Prabhupāda: That Rome. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Your civilization is such. Hari-śauri: Mr. Gupta just sent a big basketfull of oranges from Nagpur. Jagadīśa: This is a tarshi? Are they named tarshi? Hari-śauri: I'm not sure. Prabhupāda: Hm. [break] Therefore it is mentioned. Rāmeśvara: Now, one of their arguments is... Their main thing is to try to pretend that it is not a question of religion. Prabhupāda: So, one thing is that if you have proved a swine, what is the value of your arguments? You have proved that you are a swine. So better stop arguing. What I say, you accept. That is good for you. Because you are descendants of swine, and actually you are doing that. Rāmeśvara: Actually, on one television show they directly accused Your Divine Grace. They said that you have got us going out every day collecting money, and we have to send all this money to India, to Māyāpura, to build one temple so that you will become famous. And ultimately we will worship you as God. Prabhupāda: Well, already famous. What is that famous? Rāmeśvara: That was their argument. Prabhupāda: That's all right. A famous man must be famous. He cannot be famous, famous. What you have done that you'll be famous? You are swine. You cannot be famous. Rāmeśvara: They are subscribing to our newsletter. They somehow or other get our newsletter, and they read about our Māyāpura city costing so many lakhs and crores. So they became envious. That's all. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. We are selling books. That is my book. I can spend in such a way. Rāmeśvara: It was just envy. Prabhupāda: Envy is envy. But it is my book. I am selling. So I can take the price anywhere. That is my right. You have nothing to say. You stop your men to purchase, that's all. Otherwise I'll sell anywhere and I shall spend anywhere. I have got the right. Rāmeśvara: Normally they do not attack you. Jagadīśa: We are voluntarily doing all this. Rāmeśvara: We're voluntarily. But one of their main arguments is that before someone joins the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement he has great affection for his father, his mother, his brothers, his relatives. And after he joins the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement he has nothing to do with them anymore, and sometimes he even calls them demon. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the fact. Rāmeśvara: So they say this is the proof that we have brainwashed them. Because it is natural to have affection for your family. *Prabhupāda: Before that, he was accepting a false father. And now they understood that "He is not my father. He's my enemy." Therefore he's going... According to Bhāgavata it is said, "One should not become father if he cannot save his son from the imminent danger of birth, death, old age and disease." So the so*-called father, they are not father. So after enter into Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, one understands that "He's my false father." So if he gives up the relationship, that means he's successful. Rāmeśvara: So, then they will say, "We do not want this movement in our country because it is breaking up the families." Prabhupāda: You do not want? Who cares for you? We shall go on with our movement. Who cares for you? Rāmeśvara: "You are ruining family life." Prabhupāda: What is that? Rāmeśvara: We are simply ruining our families. Prabhupāda: That's all right. We are ruining the dog's family, cat's family. That's all right. We are entering into Kṛṣṇa's family. That is our improvement. What is the use of keeping with the dog's family, cat's family? The dog has also family. So to remain in the dog's family, it is very prestigious position? We have now constructed our own family, Kṛṣṇa family. We are entering there. What is the use of remaining in the dog's family, cat's family? Hari-śauri: "But if you're actually followers of God, then why are you breaking up the families? Shouldn't you have love for everyone?" Rāmeśvara: Because they say that the Ten Commandments says... One of the Ten Commandments, the fourth one, says "Thou shalt honor thy mother and thy father." Prabhupāda: Yes, we honor. Rāmeśvara: But that means by birth, the mother and father also. That's what it refers to. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: So they say, "By your teaching they are spitting on their mothers and fathers." Prabhupāda: No, not spitting. Who is spitting? Everyone... Just like you have got a father and mother. You are not spitting. Whenever father, mother, comes, he honors. That is your version, but his version is different. He loves his father and mother. He teaches him Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hari-śauri: My mother testified to that, that when I was at home I was impossible to live with, and when they saw me afterwards, I was very nice. Prabhupāda: Many. The Hayagrīva's father, mother. Rāmeśvara: My parents think like that too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: I could have no relation with them before, but now that I am a devotee, I actually want to help them, so the relationship... Prabhupāda: And there are so many fathers, mothers; they very much appreciate. And the... Our... None of our disciple is disrespectful to father and mother. Why? I never said that "You become disrespectful to your father and mother." Hari-śauri: The only time there's any argument is if... Prabhupāda: But if the father is demon... Rāmeśvara: The devotees sometimes are disrespectful out of immaturity. Prabhupāda: That is a individual fact. But... Rāmeśvara: But they cannot condemn the movement because of that. Prabhupāda: We never said that "You be..." I never said. And when Brahmānanda was initiated, his mother was standing. I asked Brahmānanda, "Take the dust of your mother's feet first. Then you offer me obeisances." Ask Brahmānanda. So he first of all offered his obeisances to his mother. I told him like that, "You have got good mother." I told him like that, "Otherwise how she has got a son like you?" I always say like that. I never said, "Disrespect." But in particular case, if the father and mother is demon, he must give up their... It is not our business to... Rāmeśvara: The whole controversy centers around this point of breaking up the family. Prabhupāda: We never said. Breaking up the family... So many ways they are breaking up, the hippies are also breaking. Jagadīśa: The fathers and mothers are also breaking. Divorce. Prabhupāda: Father and mother, yes. Why they divorce? Hari-śauri: Seven out of ten marriages. Prabhupāda: Within two weeks, three divorce. Rāmeśvara: That's a very good point. Hari-śauri: They have no family unit to speak of, anyway. Prabhupāda: It is surprising. If one gentleman lives for life as husband and wife, it is a very surprising thing in your country that they have lived so long as husband and wife. Hari-śauri: Yes, they become very glorified. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadīśa: They put them in the paper. *Prabhupāda: And so credible. So this is your nation, that if one gentleman and lady remain as husband*-wife for long time, it is a wonderful thing. So first of all decide what do you mean by religion; what is the definition of religion. Our definition of religion is this, that the law given by God is religion. Now you refute it. That is everywhere. Just like any state, you... The law given by government is law. That is universal truth. You cannot manufacture law at your home. What is given by your state, that is law. Similarly, religion means what is given by God, that is religion. Rāmeśvara: So they say we are making up our own religion because... Prabhupāda: You cannot make own religion. Then it is not religion. Rāmeśvara: That is what they accuse us of. They say that we teach our devotees that you can lie for Kṛṣṇa, you can steal for Kṛṣṇa, you can even kill for Kṛṣṇa. So this is immoral. Prabhupāda: But do you say like that? Rāmeśvara: No, they are distorting. But that is their ar... And just like they use your Back to Godhead article about Arjuna on the battlefield, that sometimes we may even have to kill our relatives for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So, suppose if God said that "You kill," what you will do? Rāmeśvara: Our argument is just that, that in the Bible, God told Abraham, "You must kill your son Isaac." This is a famous story in the Bible. So Abraham took his son and was ready to chop off his head. And God felt sorry and He stopped him. But that story is there in the Bible, that God told Abraham to kill his son, and Abraham was ready to do it. It does not mean that the Jewish religion is based on killing your son. Jagadīśa: It was a test of his faith. Rāmeśvara: It was a test of his faith. The same story of Arjuna, he had to kill for Kṛṣṇa. It's actually a good argument when they say that. Prabhupāda: You have got sugar candy? Hari-śauri: I don't think she packed any. Oh, sugar? She must have packed it. I'll have to find Pālikā, 'cause she has everything. Rāmeśvara: They think that if our devotees are willing to do whatever you say, it must mean that they are brainwashed. They have given up their independence, so therefore they are brainwashed. If they are willing to follow anyone blindly, like a slave... Prabhupāda: That is your instruction also. Jehovah says that you shall not worship any other God. So, Jesus Christ says also that you shall not worship. So that is the way of preaching. That is required. Jagadīśa: That is also required in the military. Prabhupāda: Yes. That also has been described by Professor Stillson? "Charismastic"? What is...? Jagadīśa: Charismatic. Prabhupāda: Charismatic spiritual master. Hari-śauri: I think whatever was there was either packed in the basket or the cooker, and there was no sugar. So, I'll have to... If you want, I can have one of these men go and find some. Prabhupāda: Sugar? Where you'll find? Rāmeśvara: But the... Pradyumna has some sweet mango. Prabhupāda: No. Rāmeśvara: What is that? Jagadīśa: Mango candy. Prabhupāda: Mango candy? (Hari-śauri opens door and asks in another compartment) Hari-śauri: Pradyumna, have you got some mango candy? Jagadīśa: There are grapes also. Prabhupāda: Grape candy? Jagadīśa: No. Fruit. Rāmeśvara: So, actually, their arguments are not very... So therefore it is simply a plan of Kṛṣṇa to help give us some prominence, make us more well known. Jagadīśa: Give us a chance to preach. Rāmeśvara: Because their arguments have no substance. Prabhupāda: Defeat them. "God cannot came as fish." "Why? What kind of God He is? He likes, He can do. That is God." *Jagadīśa: When I heard the tape of this priest, this minister, and he was trying to cut down our religion, our movement, he was saying that "You believe that God came as a fish, as a tortoise, as a half lion, half man," it reminded me that whenever in the scriptures demons try to blaspheme*-like Hiraṇyakṣa-tries to blaspheme against Lord Viṣṇu, Viśvanātha Cakravartī turns it around and makes it seem as if he's actually glorifying Him. You can't blaspheme Kṛṣṇa because whatever you say about Him is simply another glorification. They try to criticize, "Your God had sixteen thousand wives." Actually that's something wonderful. They just take it in the wrong way. Hari-śauri: (in background) Is Pālikā in there? Listen, Prabhupāda wants some... Have you got any of that mango candy? Can you cut some fruit for Prabhupāda? Jagadīśa: They're helping us to spread Kṛṣṇa's glories. Rāmeśvara: Now, they say... Just like in Los Angeles we have sued the family for two million dollars, two and a half million dollars, because they kidnapped their girl. So they say that the girl, she would not have done this, but because we told her to do it, therefore she did it. Therefore there is control. We are controlling her. Prabhupāda: We must because you checked her freedom. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Why did you kidnap? Therefore we must teach him some lesson. Jagadīśa: Everyone acts in such a way to please his friends, anyway. Rāmeśvara: Their argument is that this girl who was kidnapped, she still likes her family, but now we have told her, "You must sue them." So therefore she is doing it. So therefore she is not free. She is... We are controlling her. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you want to control her. We are controlling, but you want to control her. So if you can control, why shall I not control? Why you are poking your nose? We shall cut your nose. (laughter) Jagadīśa: That's what we're going to do too. (Hari-śauri returns with candy) Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Rāmeśvara: I think we've used up all their arguments. They say... Prabhupāda: First of all, our challenge is "What is your definition of God?" Rāmeśvara: They will answer, "Let us first discuss the definition of brainwashing. Do not talk of God. We are not trying to talk of God. We want to talk about brainwashing." Prabhupāda: So first of all you define. Rāmeśvara: Brainwashing? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: They say that brainwashing means that when you deprive a person of sleep, of food, you isolate him from the rest of the world, you have him chant something over and over again many times, in this way you can get control of his mind, and then whatever you want, he will do, just like a robot. Prabhupāda: You first of all said that we are depriving with food. Where is this? Rāmeśvara: This is their argument... Prabhupāda: This is their argument... Rāmeśvara: ...that we only let them eat twice a day, and even then, not only is there no meat, but there is very little protein. Prabhupāda: That depends on him. If he likes to eat that kind of food, you have no right to enforce upon him. Then you are going to enforce upon him. There are different persons; they like different types of food. And food must be according to his own taste. Aguru ohikhanna.(?) Rāmeśvara: Only twice a day. Prabhupāda: But if he likes twice a day, why you give thrice? That is his choice. Rāmeśvara: And sleeping only four, five hours. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Very little. Prabhupāda: Because it is waste of time. Rāmeśvara: This makes his mind very weak. Prabhupāda: You rascal, you have nothing to do. You sleep. Napoleon used to sleep for one hour, two hour. He was such a busy man. So they are so busy in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have no time to sleep. Every great man does not sleep very much. The lazy men... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) Acchā. Sleeping is simply waste of time. So this is... If he does not sleep more, it is a sign of greatness. Rāmeśvara: But they have got these crazy fools in the name of psychologists. And these psychologists... Prabhupāda: We have got our psychologists. Rāmeśvara: These psychologists say that if there is a lack of sleep, then the mind becomes very susceptible to another person's ideas. You can get control of him by depriving him of sleep. Just like they say... There was a war once in the country of Korea between America and China, and the prisoners, the Americans, were captured and put into these prison camps, and the Chinese tried to convert them to Communism by lack of sleep and lack of food, torture. In this way, they say, this is widely accepted that if a person has too little sleep or too little food, then you can break his will and change his life by force. Prabhupāda: So that is all right. Then you break. Now he's quite fit for your conversion. He's now weak. You convert him to your ideas. (laughter) We have made the ground. Rāmeśvara: That's what they want! They want us... Prabhupāda: Then why do you kidnap? You say. Rāmeśvara: They want us to give the devotees to them, and then they will deprive them of food and sleep and deprogram him. Jagadīśa: But we're already depriving him of food and sleep. Prabhupāda: But they are open to everyone. Why do you kidnap? Why do you steal like a thief? Rāmeśvara: For his own good. Prabhupāda: Then you are thief. Then thief can also say like that, "For my good I can steal." Rāmeśvara: "It is the lesser of evils." Prabhupāda: That's all right. But God does not allow. Hari-śauri: When a person first comes to us he's coming voluntarily and he's not... At that stage he's not deprived of sleep, he's not deprived of eating. But still, he's coming, voluntarily. But when they take him away they have to take him by force. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: To change him. Rāmeśvara: They say to break him of the spell. We have got a spell on him. Prabhupāda: But why he again comes back? You could not break. Rāmeśvara: Sometimes they cannot break, because we have planted our... Prabhupāda: In most cases they come back. Rāmeśvara: Yes. I would say four out of five come back. Jagadīśa: We have given him knowledge. Prabhupāda: It is not a prison house. Rāmeśvara: They say, "You cannot deprogram a Christian because Christianity is real. Therefore this is the proof that Hare Kṛṣṇa is false." Prabhupāda: What is that? Rāmeśvara: That there is no record of any Christian... Hari-śauri: We were all Christians, and we changed. Jagadīśa: There's a record of a Christian deprogrammed, Peter himself. Christ prophesied that "Before the cock crows you'll deny me three times," and he did. He was deprogrammed just by his association. Rāmeśvara: That was Peter? Jagadīśa: Yes. (train going again) Hari-śauri: His own... One of his twelve apostles put him on the cross, Judas Iscariat. He was one of the original twelve. He betrayed Jesus for some money and put him on the cross, killed him. He killed him. Prabhupāda: That's right. This is the history of your religion. You kill Jesus Christ; you deprive him. Hari-śauri: There's still that point that when a person comes, he's coming voluntarily. We have no chance to deprive him of sleep or food, because he's living outside. He's not living inside. Rāmeśvara: They say that when a man comes to join us, immediately we take away all his money and all his possessions, so in this way we are depriving him of his property. Prabhupāda: That is individual surrender. We have not rendered that way. He surrendered individually. Hari-śauri: When Christ preached, he told them to "Give up your work; give up your family; give up everything. Don't try to earn a livelihood. Don't worry about where your food will come from. Don't worry where your cloth will come from." He said that in his instructions to his disciples. I think it's in the Acts according to St. Matthew. Jagadīśa: His disciples simply... Hari-śauri: He gave the example that "The birds, they do not try to make a living, but God is feeding them. So do you not think God will help feed if you go out and do His work?" That is what he said to them. (indistinct) And they say they are Christians, but actually the real Christianity is what we are practicing. Rāmeśvara: And also Dr. Harvey Cox of Harvard, he quoted one section of the Bible where Jesus was preaching and his mother did not like it, and his father, and they came to get him away. They thought he was gone crazy, that he was preaching so much about God. So they came to his place where he had gathered many people. They wanted to deprogram him. And Jesus said, "You're not my mother. You're not my father. My real father is in heaven, and my real relatives are those who believe in God." Prabhupāda: Where is that? Rāmeśvara: That's right in the Bible. Prabhupāda: [break] Because there are many fanatics. Hm? Hari-śauri: Through America it's full of persecutors.(?) These people are very, very hateful towards our men. Europe is all right. Europe... Prabhupāda: Europe? Germany... Hari-śauri: Germany is bad.(?) Jagadīśa: North America would be... South America? Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, if you did come to America, the best idea is if you went to a farm like the New York farm and just made that your headquarters. And the devotees could visit. They could come and see you. Otherwise, the country in Pennsylvania is very beautiful in the spring and the summer, very peaceful. Hari-śauri: New Vrindaban you could go when the palace is done. *Conversation and Instruction On New Movie-*-January 13, 1977, Allahabad Prabhupāda: These are weapons. That was the only endeavor, how legally he could occupy the bricks and stones of Gauḍīya Math. That's all. He had no other ambition. How to push on Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, how to push on Guru Mahārāja's... He had no such. It was simply show. But real purpose was how to occupy, how to take the whole property. Business. Rāmeśvara: And none of the other Godbrothers had strong preaching spirits. Prabhupāda: Yes. They also, when they saw that "This man is legally taking everything. Gauḍīya sannyāsīs, we cannot go home. We must have some shelter." No spirit of pushing on. Rāmeśvara: Even by your example they have not learned anything. *Prabhupāda: No, my... Of course, I did not attempt in the beginning. I started my activities when I was seventy years old. So they thought, "This man is gṛhastha. He is embarassed with family life. What he'll do?" (laughs) That was their impression. But I never neglected. Guru Mahārāja told me. I was simply thinking, "How to do it? How to do it?" I thought, "Let me become a rich businessman. The money will be required." That was my thought. But Guru Mahārāja was asking me, "You give up this. I'll give you money." That I could not understand. I was planning. My plan was not wrong. But I was thinking "The money required, so let me earn some money. Then I shall begin." And Guru Mahārāja said, "You give up this money-earning endeavor. You come completely. I'll give you money." I can understand now. But my desire was there. Therefore he guided me. So I was... In 1936 or '35 in Bombay, after installation of Deity, so-I was gṛhastha*-I helped them to collect some money. All my Godbrothers applauded and recommended to Guru Mahārāja that "Abhay Babu is so influential. Why he lives outside the temple? He can become the temple commander and manage this Bombay temple. Why he is living outside?" Mean "Guru Mahārāja may ask him." So I was... From this Allahabad I was going to Bombay. I had one small office there. So after hearing, he said, "It is better that he is living little away from your Matha. And when time will rise, he'll do everything. He hasn't got to be advised." I could not understand why he said like that. That means he was so kind that he expected that I shall do something. That was my asset, his blessing. And I was thinking that "His, this mission must be done very nicely." Although I was not capable to do anything, I was thinking like that. So desire was there and maybe blessing was there. Yes. There was no question of qualification. Rāmeśvara: But still, after ten years the Gauḍīya Math still has not learned. Prabhupāda: Hm? They cannot. They... Those who are intelligent, they are making something, Śrīdhara Mahārāja and others. But this man was envious, this Tīrtha Mahārāja, because... He advertised that he is the only favorite student of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. (laughs) But spiritually he was empty. Materially he was capable, how to manage things. But spiritually he was zero. That Prabhupāda also knew and everyone knows. He had no spiritual understanding. Materially he helped Guru Mahārāja how to organize. Therefore he liked him, that "This man is expert manager." Rāmeśvara: We have devotees like that. We also have devotees who spiritually have trouble coming to the programs and even chanting, but still, they like to give them service, so we engage them anyway. *Prabhupāda: That is also qualification. That is also qualification. Some way or other, if there is some service, it goes to the credit. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya. The foolish person may not know that "I am imperceptibly advancing even during my, this material life," but Kṛṣṇa takes. Just like Pūtanā. She gave service by allowing her breast to be sucked by Kṛṣṇa. Although her intention was to kill, but Kṛṣṇa took her as mother: "She has given Me service." This is Kṛṣṇa. "This rascal does not know that nobody can kill Me, but on some plea or other, she has given her breast open to be sucked by Me, and I have done it. Therefore she is My mother. She must get the promotion like mother Yaśodā." This is Kṛṣṇa. He is very anxious to deliver us. So any little service done, He accepts. "All right, come on. You are accepted." This is Kṛṣṇa. Little service. "Let him do something." So kind. He comes for serving you.(?) He speaks, "Rascal, you do this. Surrender to Me and do something. You'll be relived from this janma-mṛtyu vyādhi." "No." Hog, dogs, they are*-what is called-obstinate. The hog, living in dirty place, eating stool, and if you try to deliver from this, he'll not: "No. No. I am living here happily. Why you are disturbing me?" This is the... "Why you are trying to wash my brain? This is very good life." This is our... Rāmeśvara: Sometimes we get gṛhasthas to join us, but they are not strong enough to do saṅkīrtana. So then we can encourage them to do some business like a normal gṛhastha in the world, to give some money to... Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa... Svakarmana: "All right, be engaged in your occupational duty." Rāmeśvara: Just give something. Actually, if some gṛhasthas would do some business, it would take a little pressure off the brahmacārīs, and they can pass out more books. Now because the overhead is high in certain temples like New York, very high overhead, LA, very high, so we are collecting so much money. We could be giving out more books if we had extra money from the gṛhastha's business. Prabhupāda: They are willing to work? Rāmeśvara: I think if we encourage them... Prabhupāda: Then why not? Rāmeśvara: ...we can start some businesses. Just like Spiritual Sky was started. It is giving every month to Los Angeles five thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: So you can do business. Why don't you start this toothpaste? It is very effective. I am using personally. Toothpaste is a very common thing. If you introduce, it is used by cent percent persons. Simply they should like it. Rāmeśvara: The taste is all right? Prabhupāda: Yes, taste can be... Rāmeśvara: Adjusted. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: In America everything is based on the tongue. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. Taste can be very nice, sweetened. There is salt, and you can add honey also. Naturally salty and sweet plus some ingredients like peppermint, wintergreen, camphor, it will make tasty. These ingredients are very nice. We can... Some ordinary medicament. That skin disease ointment, some cough mixture. I have got experience in all these things. If you want to introduce this kind of business, tidbit...(?) The gṛhasthas can do the business. Rāmeśvara: Gṛhasthas. I also want to start this record... Prabhupāda: You cannot expect everyone to be brahminical qualification. We are neither brāhmaṇa nor... We do not belong to any sect, but Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, we can do anything. That, because we are doing some business, we are not vaiśyas. Just like Nanda Mahārāja was agriculturist. So that does not mean he was a Vaiṣṇava. But professionally, externally, he looked like a vaiśya. Rāmeśvara: I see that in Los Angeles. Not everyone can follow every program. So I'm always telling them, to encourage them, that even something is better than nothing. Blind uncle is better than no uncle. So do whatever you can. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they should be encouraged. They must give some service to the institution. By earning money, that is hard*-earned money. (man chanting on loudspeaker in background) So why our men are not chanting? This is... Rāmeśvara: They're just starting. Prabhupāda: He's also stressing on chanting, this man, Punjabi. He is stressing that "Mind is restless. Chant. The mind will be controlled." Rāmeśvara: Actually, by reading your books millions of Americans are chanting. Prabhupāda: Chanting? Rāmeśvara: Just by reading your books it is chanting. Prabhupāda: No...(?) Rāmeśvara: Within the mind they are hearing the message of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: There are some cartoons. One old lady is requesting her husband, "Chant! Chant! Chant!" and the husband is saying, "Can't! Can't! Can't!" You did not see that? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And another big businessman, he is coming from business and sitting: "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" These cartoons are there. Rāmeśvara: Yet now there is a new controversy in America because during Christmas season our book distributors dress themselves up as Santa Claus. You've seen Santa Claus? Prabhupāda: They... They... Rāmeśvara: Very fat, white beard. Christians got very angry. They think that Santa Claus is Christian, so we are impersonating to take advantage. But we were arguing that "This Santa Claus is not Christian or Jewish. He is devotee of God." Originally Santa Claus is a saint, Saint Nicholas. So we were arguing, "How can you claim exclusive property of Christian? He is a servant of God. You are using this Santa Claus..." Prabhupāda: Even Americans use also. Rāmeśvara: "...to sell liquor and sell cigarettes." If you watch the TV, you see that they have commercials, and Santa Claus is encouraging people, "Buy liquor," "Buy cigarettes." But we are using Santa Claus, encouraging people to... Prabhupāda: Read book. Rāmeśvara: ...read book. Anyway, there was some controversy, and they had this one cartoon, I sent it, outside the place where Lord Jesus was born, and the father of Jesus is seeing outside. There are three Hare Kṛṣṇas playing mṛdaṅga. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: But dressed as Santa Claus. And he is saying, "Would you believe Hare Kṛṣṇa?" So that actually is very good for us, that cartoon. They are putting us with Jesus. For them to do that is very good for us. Hari-śauri: (indistinct) Rāmeśvara: Yes. Somehow, whatever we do now, they find some fault and then they write about it in the newspaper, and millions of people read about us. Prabhupāda: "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Svalpam apy asya dharmasya. Any way, if something is done in this connection, it becomes an asset. Rāmeśvara: Now, this Governor of California, he invited us to assist him for helping the conditions in these mental retarded hospitals. So that is like mundane charity, in one sense. So is it all right for our men to take some time? Because the end result will be that we will become appreciated. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, you do. Wherever we get opportunity, we shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Rāmeśvara: We can teach them to chant. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is our medicine. Rāmeśvara: But, of course, the main thing is that the governor, he is not inviting us so much to give religion. He wants... Prabhupāda: No, this is our method to cure. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is not religion. "You have invited, so this is our method of curing, 'Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' " And that's a fact. Go there, prepare prasādam, offer to the Deity, ask them to chant in the school(?). Who will object to this? There cannot be any objection, anyone. Rāmeśvara: No, except that there is this controversy that if you chant, you are limiting your brain, washing, brainwashing. Prabhupāda: That is our treatment. If you want that treatment, this is our treatment. Rāmeśvara: So I have been thinking for some time... I have discussed this idea with Yadubara, because you wrote in your letter to Tamāla Kṛṣṇa that we should use movies also to convince them. So I had this idea to have a movie photographing India at different places... Prabhupāda: In movie there is chanting, dancing. Rāmeśvara: I was thinking to show that chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is very old. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: There are temples all over India, and... A movie about Vaisnavism, not so much just Hare Kṛṣṇa, but Vaisnavism in general. Now, in the colleges in America they are always eager to have movies about Hinduism, Muhammadanism, Buddhism, for showing to their students, but whenever they have a movie about Hinduism, it is all bogus, many gods, many demigod worship, nature worship. And the people who make these movies for college classes have no conception. So I was thinking, if we make a scholarly movie about Vaisnavism... Prabhupāda: Yes. Do. You can do. Rāmeśvara: ...which will convince people that chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is very accepted in India... *Prabhupāda: You take... You take this. I'll give you hint. You can develop it. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. The beginning is hearing about Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad*-gītā, Bhāgavatam. Big, big sabhā, you'll find many Vaiṣṇavas chanting. They are reciting Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and hundreds and thousands are hearing. Hari-śauri: Show the nine devotional processes... *Prabhupāda: Yes, the nine devotional process and how, by each process, one becomes perfect, just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja, simply hearing, and Śukadeva Gosvāmī, simply chanting, reciting Bhāgavatam. So both of them got salvation. Lakṣmī, she is simply pāda*-sevanam, giving massage to the lotus feet of the Lord. Arjuna simply made friendship with Kṛṣṇa. Hanuman simply worked as a hard servant. He doesn't know what He is... "Lord Rāmacandra wants it." Then it is done. Jump over. He does not know any philosophy. He has got bodily strength, so whatever Rāmacandra says, he'll do. He was asked to bring that medicine for Lakṣmaṇa. He did not know where to find it. "Take this whole mountain." (laughter) He was not intelligent. "Fight! We have to fight with Rāvaṇa. Then block his whole city by throwing stones and trees and dirt." Everything became blocked. They could not move. So in one side he is born of animal life, he had no higher intelligence, but his staunch desire, that "I shall serve Lord Rāmacandra..." By that... Only this desire made him perfect. Dāsyam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23], so smaraṇam. Prahlāda Mahārāja, five years old boy, how he could protest against such a powerful demon father? He was simply thinking of Kṛṣṇa, "All right, my father is punishing me. What can I do?" Simply absorbed, smaraṇam. Rāmeśvara: One thing they will like to see in this movie is many different temples, beautiful temples from South India, and also Vaiṣṇava festivals. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rāmeśvara: Like Ratha*-yatra in Jagannātha Purī. Prabhupāda: And the stories also, that how by executing one of the items a devotee became perfect. Hari-śauri: And show how they're doing those... Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: ...items in different sampradāyas and... Rāmeśvara: This will show, this movie will show, that Vaiṣṇava is very authorized. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is widespread. Because that... They are criticizing. *Prabhupāda: No, no, this, this, this śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ, this śloka, was cited just little after the creation. That means millions and millions of years ago. Now, not recently. Many millions and billions of years ago. That is the oldest. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. Whichever item you take, it is very, very... Just like this Parīkṣit Mahārāja. That is at least five thousand years ago. So where is the history of the human society in the Western countries? They cannot give history more than three thousand years. Rāmeśvara: They think it is simply caveman. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rāmeśvara: Prehistoric. They call it pre*-history, living in caves, monkey men. Also I was thinking, in the movie they can take the testimonial of different scholars and professors in India about your books and about chanting as a process for awakening the mind, because they are accusing us that "By chanting, you are killing your brain." So if we take... Prabhupāda: That, it is acting, rascal, on brain. We are teaching or giving them process. That you cannot understand. But our mantra is so strong that it is acting on the brain. So why don't you take this side, that "If we are simply chanting and it is acting on the brain, even from your side, that it is so strong that we are giving up everything for this process. So how much this chanting is strong, why don't you see to that?" Rāmeśvara: We can even take testimony from some scientists... Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: ...about chanting. *Prabhupāda: Yes. "Why it is happening? Why we have given everything. Our father, mother, our home, our comforts, our ideas, stereotyped, our religion, culture-everything we have given up. So don't you see the power of chanting? You may think it is bad, but see the power. Similarly, these diseased person, if they chant, it has got power to bring him in the normal condition. The power is there. It is already proved. You say it is brainwash, but the power is there. Reaction is there. That's a fact. You are admitting. So now, whether this reaction is good or bad, that you cannot judge because you are bad. But impersonally, if you judge, you see how the power is, that we were drunkards, we were woman-hunter, we were meat-eaters*-we have given up. You cannot give up even smoking cigarette. So just this is the power. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]." Why don't you take this side? The power is there. The electric power is there, either you use it for heater or for cooler. That is your na... But the power is there. Without this power, it cannot run on, either heater or cooler. Give them this recipe(?). "You have to admit. You are admitting that 'Your Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra working on the brain.' So the power is there. You have admitted." Hari-śauri: Yeah, they admit the power. Prabhupāda: That is... That is some... Hari-śauri: But we have to show them that it's good. Prabhupāda: And "You do not know what is good. It is good. We have given up these bad habits, sinful life. It is not... But you have no idea that these are good. You have idea, but out of your definite malice you cannot appreciate. You are spending millions of dollars for giving up this LSD, and our power is so strong, as soon as one comes, he gives up. But you are so rascal, you do not appreciate. That means you are rascal. Our power is there; our reaction is there for good. That's a fact. But you cannot understand. You are so rascal; you are so fallen down. The same, like the hog. He does not know what is the..., how nice is halavā. You give him halavā; *he'll not take it. He will take stool. That is his misfortune. It cannot say that halavā is bad, but he cannot appreciate because he's hog. He'll prefer to eat stool. We are giving up these nonsense, nasty things. You cannot appreciate. 'Oh, they are giving up meat*-eating? It is brainwashing.' You are so low, hog life." Tell them like that. "As the hog cannot appreciate what is the value of nice halavā, similarly you cannot appreciate. Your brain has to be washed. Please come inside. We shall wash it." Is it not? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, that "You require to..., your brain to be washed. Then you'll understand the value of this. So let us treat you. Come here. You are a good candidate." Rāmeśvara: So far, the movies that Yadubara has made, the colleges will not use them in their religion classes so much because they are... They seem to be just religious propaganda for Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So if this movie is made in a more scholarly way, the field is very good. They will use it in every college class all over the country. Prabhupāda: Which movie? Rāmeśvara: The one I'm thinking of having Yadubara make, shooting in India professors' and scientists' testimony plus Vaiṣṇava festivals and Vaiṣṇava temples. Prabhupāda: No, that... And you'll see Tirupati, how they are standing for hours together. Rāmeśvara: Yes, like that. And also, if the movie is made very well, then we can make an excerpt... *Prabhupāda: How they are contributing their hard*-earned money, how it is, the are collecting money, huge amount. Rāmeśvara: Yes, they'll interview very wealthy people also. Good idea. Prabhupāda: They're not all wealthy. Wealthies are giving more, and poor men also give. Rāmeśvara: But in America, if they see that a wealthy man is also worshiping Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: ...then they'll have respect for it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: If they think just poor people... Prabhupāda: No. Rāmeśvara: ...they'll not respect it as much. Prabhupāda: Just like... The temples are maintained by all the people. All the big, big kings... So you show how kings of Cuttack, they constructed a temple of... A temple construction is costly affair. How Mahārāja Mansingha constructed the Vṛndāvana costly temples. That is everywhere. Rāmeśvara: If this movie is made properly... Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: ...I think we can even get it on television in America. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything done properly will be accepted. There is no problem. Rāmeśvara: Our movies so far cannot be on television because they are too much Hare Kṛṣṇa propaganda. But if this is done in a way, they will not know that it is the Hare Kṛṣṇa propaganda, but it will be there anyway... It will be like a very scholarly, academic movie. And then they'll show it on television. They're eager. Because it's such a controversy about chanting and meditation, whether it is brainwashing or not, so if we make this movie, they'll put it on nationwide television. Prabhupāda: And what you can do? You can show some temples or you can show some meeting of Bhāgavata recital. That's it, two things. *Rāmeśvara: Yes. And also festivals like Ratha*-yatra, millions of people coming, big public festivals. I was thinking that Bhargava and Yadubara can travel together in India, because Bhargava has been to many places. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: And they'll also appreciate beautiful photography showing the beauty of India. They'll appreciate that also. And beautiful temples. Prabhupāda: Artistic. Rāmeśvara: Yes, it'll show the higher religious culture of India. That will impress many people in America. They think of India as so backwards, but they'll see that they have these beautiful temples. Prabhupāda: So that is due to British propaganda. British propaganda was that they were staying in India to make India civilized. Rāmeśvara: Their big propaganda is that "India is so poor and they are so stupid, they are giving all their money to the temple, so they are remaining poor, so what is the use of this religion?" That was the propaganda, that "Religion is the opiate of the people." Prabhupāda: Yes, they do not... Therefore they are... The Indian rascals, they using this income of Bālaji for industry. They are bringing, that "The poor people, on account of their innocence, they are blindly, so..." Communist movement is against us because we are constructing costly temples, crores and rupees. This could have been utilized in industry. That is their protest. Temple construction was practically stopped in India. And I have again revived. Nobody was interested to construct temple anywhere within the recent at least hundred years or fifty years. Hari-śauri: Only the Birlas. Prabhupāda: Ah, only Birlas, yes. Rāmeśvara: In America, if we collect money saying we are sending it to India, if we tell them we are sending it to build a temple in India, they will not give one penny. They think "India has too many temples. They need money for food, for technology." Prabhupāda: So we can take money for food. That is also our program. Rāmeśvara: Well, I'm going to try to develop this record business. I think we can make a million dollars a year, profit. Prabhupāda: And send it for our farms, and we invite, "Come here. Take prasādam." Rāmeśvara: Oh, the farm communities. Oh, not just food relief, but also developing the farm projects. Hari-śauri: That's food relief. Prabhupāda: Now, my project is that we shall actually give them food, shelter and... Rāmeśvara: Cottages, little cottages. Prabhupāda: And cloth, whatever primary necessities and simple living, and let them chant. Rāmeśvara: They chant and also work the fields. Prabhupāda: So they, in the beginning, if they are not working... They'll work. We shall supply food, everything. And that... That is well beginning. In Hyderabad they are coming daily, two hundred people. And I kept with them fifty thousand rupees and told... But as soon I came, they have stopped, this, our Haṁsadūta. I do not know what is the reason. He said, "There is no money." I gave them fifty thousand rupees. He said, "There is no money." He's not good manager at all. It has been proved. He's not a good manager. Everywhere failure. Rāmeśvara: He's very good at kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Hm, that's right. He is sincere devotee and he's... But as soon as you give something to manage, he'll make a mess. (laughs) I have told him that "I shall pay you. You continue this prasāda distribution, kīrtana program." They are coming, up to two hundred. And now he has finished it. Rāmeśvara: Two hundred people were coming every day. Prabhupāda: Every day. And that is little, simple prasāda. Little kittri would satisfy them. They're village people. Rāmeśvara: So they have to regular source of income. Prabhupāda: Yes. And so long there is no income, I shall supply food or money. Rāmeśvara: This year I think I can spend some time developing this record. I'm sure we can make money. Prabhupāda: Yes, make money. Rāmeśvara: With very little manpower. Prabhupāda: And send... Send grains. Send grains, food grains, and we shall utilize it in all our temples and farm projects in the beginning. Then they'll... Naturally they'll produce. As soon as they become little interested in our scheme, they'll give service. Rāmeśvara: And this will also be a good angle for getting the record tax exempt. The books are already tax exempt, but not the record. So if the money from the record is going to be used for feeding people... Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: ...automatically they'll give us tax exemption. *Prabhupāda: Actually India is poor. When we give food, how voraciously they eat. They cannot eat. They have no resources to eat nicely at home. That's a fact. Half*-fed. At least half-fed. In the villages they are not fully fed. They have no sufficient clothing, no food, that's all. The rascal politicians, realizing heavy tax, and that is divided amongst them. It is not going to the poor. They are imitating Western way of life. They have got huge expenditure. So whatever money is coming, they are spending for their luxury, and poor men... The Gandhi's movement, boycott British goods, but they took it: "Boycott British goods and take our goods." So the consumer goods were the same. Gandhi helped to stop the British capitalist in favor of the Indian capitalist. The consumer remained in the same position, rather, worse. The foreigners, they are thinking that "These people are poor. They cannot pay more to me." And these rascals, Indian capitalists, in the name of nationalism, Birlas and others, they exploit. And they give contribution to Gandhi, Gandhi's staff, Jawaharlal Nehru's staff. And they took the opportunity that "I shall pay this rascal one lakh, and I shall utilize the ten lakhs." That's it. So the object of exploitation remained the same. Rather, by artificial inflation of money market put common men in plight, because the other day I was calculating... The things have gone high priced, thirty times, but the income has not increased thirty times. The other day I was calculating. My father's income was, utmost, three hundred rupees. So we had no scarcity. In our standard of life there was no scar... What standard of...? That standard of life is still... Now that three hundred rupees is... He calculated. Hari-śauri: Price of gold, it was based on. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hari-śauri: We worked out the price of gold. Prabhupāda: Yes, gold standard. Gold standard... At that time gold was selling... My mother was purchasing gold for ornament at twenty rupees per tola. Now the gold in India is six hundred rupees. Rāmeśvara: Thirty times. Prabhupāda: Thirty times. Rāmeśvara: So that three hundred rupees is like nine thousand. Prabhupāda: Nine thousand. And who has got nine thousand rupees' income? Rāmeśvara: Per month? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That three hundred rupees is equal to nine thousand rupees now. Now, a middle class man, who has got nine thousand rupees' income? Maybe one thousand, two thousand... [break] ...same thing, thirty times. The same ghee is selling not less than twenty*-five, up to thirty. Thirty times. Take anything, rice, dahl, wheat, two annas per seer. And now they charge two rupees, three rupees per kilo. So from two annas to two rupees, sixteen times more. Rāmeśvara: America also... *Prabhupāda: No, sixteen, thirty*-two times. *Rāmeśvara: Thirty*-two times. *Prabhupāda: You take average, thirty times more. Cloth, you could purchase very nice cloth, one rupees six annas. Now that is thirty rupees. So in this way proportionately, average thirty times, everything. Everything has increased thirty times. So I am speaking when we were child, say eight years-seven years, eight years old*-or up to ten years. So I am now eighty-one. Seventy years ago and now, the difference is thirty times. We were purchasing milk, two annas per seer, and now it is three rupees per kilo. That is also, we do not know whether it is milk or some white water. Hari-śauri: In most cases it's white water. Prabhupāda: And we were purchasing real milk (indistinct). So nice. Rāmeśvara: So they may say this philosophy, that's like the communism, capitalism, Russia, America. The business of exploiting the masses is the same, they'll say. Different names, different dress, but the main business is going on. Prabhupāda: Expert. Nobody is thinking (indistinct) "Everyone will be happy." That we are thinking because we are devotees. Otherwise what is the use of my going to America? So America is not in need of me, but I found there is need of me. So they are thinking, "This man has come to wash our brains." And I think that "Yes, we are going to do work (indistinct) they will be happy." Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, could I ask one more question about the records? Prabhupāda: Mm. Rāmeśvara: Suppose we make a profit. Someone may enquire, "Isn't it better to use the money to distribute more books rather than giving it to the food program." Prabhupāda: No, no, books department, that is already sufficient income. Rāmeśvara: I would personally like to use it for the food program. Prabhupāda: Yes. Book we are getting. Rāmeśvara: So that's the answer then. Prabhupāda: And we are not taking any profit. Neither the seller, neither the author is taking any profit. So there is enough money. You haven't got to pay either to the seller or to the writer, then why not spend the whole income? No profit. So we save income tax. And whatever little excess is there, (indistinct), advertise or pay some gṛhasthas some pocket expenses. In this way make it meet. No profit. By our arrangement there is no question of profit but even there is profit, we should pay the gṛhasthas some expenditure. He has... Family man there is... In this way, make always no profit. I was doing from the very beginning (indistinct), then I began to sell books. I was working, I was selling, I was collecting, I was spending, going to the printer, everything. Forcing (indistinct) I was publishing. Work nicely. If I don't force (indistinct), they'll not give me the concession rate, still I am doing. So I think this book department (indistinct) all right, you don't require to invest. But whatever income you'll get from this record business, spend it for giving prasādam. So we have got so many centers, they will feed. Rāmeśvara: But they... That way a whole new... *Prabhupāda: Therefore I started Māyāpura this prasāda distribution. And it is coming to be successful. People are, politicians are appreciating that here is Hindu*-Muslim unity. Rāmeśvara: All the devotees will appreciate this then. That the records now, the money is going to be used for food relief. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we can increase. The same thing (indistinct) in the farm, in the village, "Come on, any number, I shall feed you. Come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and take prasādam." And we shall increase the quality of the prasādam. They will be very much pleased to come and chant. That I want. I am interested in these rascals (indistinct). Fighting amongst them. What can we do? You can go for some time, see what is the reason you have come. (indistinct) ...elderly person, he will come. (indistinct) younger brothers (indistinct) but that he has no power to do. Misunderstanding there will be, after all it is the material world. You go and see why (indistinct). I used to think like that. In all our temples the prasāda distribution should be so random (?), that within ten miles nobody should remain hungry. There are many persons in India, they are half time hungry. So if you distribute prasādam, "Come over here. You are hungry, take prasādam. If I cannot supply daily, I'll supply at least two days, three days weekly." And they're coming. You have seen Māyāpura (indistinct). A big prasāda distribution hall. Regular two thousands are coming (indistinct). And Hindu, Muslim, they're sitting down. No (indistinct). Hari-śauri: Is there any reason why we are just distribute on a Saturday and Sunday? Prabhupāda: Oh, (indistinct) we can distribute every day. Hari-śauri: Let them come every day. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is (indistinct). Otherwise (indistinct). Let them eat. They can eat. Hari-śauri: If they get a (indistinct) successful and they get regular amounts... Prabhupāda: It will be successful. Hari-śauri: Then they could increase that. Prabhupāda: It will be successful. Rāmeśvara: I think we can make a million dollars a year. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Rāmeśvara: After it has been developed. Prabhupāda: And purchase grains. (indistinct) purchase books. Rāmeśvara: I've studied but more Americans buy records than books. They spend more money buying records than buying books. Prabhupāda: Mm. That is natural. Rāmeśvara: But commercially there's some good potential. Prabhupāda: But do not neglect book sales. Rāmeśvara: No. Prabhupāda: That will not do. This is our first business. *Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, in the Back to Godhead magazine, one question has come up. Now that England is printing their own, India is printing their own, so this magazine that we print in America, ninety percent, ninety*-five percent is sold in America. Prabhupāda: But that is English and in India vernacular so there is no question of competition. Rāmeśvara: Right. So the question is that the magazines in America, the readers like very much to have a feeling of who the author is, who the different writers are, the editors. So we are using our spiritual names on the list of writers and editors and so on. So they have asked me to enquire whether in parentheses they can also have their legal names. Prabhupāda: Why not? Rāmeśvara: That way, because they cannot pronounce these names, Gopīparanadhana. Prabhupāda: Fine, allow this. Rāmeśvara: Then it seems like a foreign thing. Prabhupāda: Oh yes, you can... Rāmeśvara: So should we have both names? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Rāmeśvara: Use both names. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: I think this will help the readers... Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Rāmeśvara: ...relate more. (pause) Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya. (pause) So where shall I wash my mouth? There? Devotee: (indistinct) (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 15, 1977, Allahabad Prabhupāda: ...in Western countries, fifty years. Twenty years in Durban and thirty years in England. Gurudāsa: Twenty years in...? *Prabhupāda: In Durban. South Africa. Fighting with General Smuts to give Indians equal rights. They are very conservative. At heart they want "Indians may go away." They don't want Indians. And if they want, it is for their own benefit. The Indians have given some place to develop as marketplace, and as soon as they develop, they ask, "Go there. Leave this place. Go away, other place." This is going on. And they know very well, politicians. The Indians have been given a place where nearby there is a slaughterhouse. They know Indians are sentimental, at least for cow slaughtering. Whole night slaughtering is going on, and there are screaming of the animals. Whole night. Even those who are meat*-eaters, they will be disturbed. So the purpose is that "Let them live near the slaughterhouse, so by sentiment they are disgusted, leave this country." They don't want the Asians, especially Indians, and especially due to Gandhi, because they know, due to Gandhi... At least Gandhi organized the public opinion against the Britishers by this noncooperation movement. They were not affected by the... Affected in this way, that public opinion was against them. That is also organization. Otherwise Gandhi's method was not harmful to the..., this noncooperation, nonviolent. That did not help. But he influenced the public opinion against them. Rāmeśvara: All over the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. That Hitler also did. Phāṇsa lāge dubudh bage: "If five men combine together, even the ghost will go away." (laughs) So everyone was against the Britishers. How they can keep their...? And nature's law also. They exploited the whole world for the benefit of few persons in London, and that is very bad. Gurudāsa: You told me they wanted to be paid in gold by the Home Bill just to deplete the economy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Home Bill. Because I was student of economics. So Home Bill. Home Bill means all the Englishmen were engaged in India, either government, railway, industry, factory, and so on, so on, so on. Whatever... They have got some charges. So all the bills were sent to London, and they made a Home Bill. Their home is in England, so they won't take payment here. They'll take payment at home. And the government there, they'll present the whole bill to India and debit India's account in gold. That means, other words, all the payments which were to be made to the Englishmen in India, they were paid at home in gold. Gurudāsa: So that means they would spend at home instead of India for the benefit of themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes. No Englishmens were allowed to domicile in India. No. Strictly. But if... As soon as they make home, it will be America. The Americans made their home in America, so a war of independence was... They have experienced that, so did not allow the Englishmen to make India home. "You come here, work and take your payment. Can't come down."(?) This was the policy, Home Bill. And India's gold was kept in London. So gradually all the gold finished. Very, very crooked policy they followed. They... They... In Muhammadan period there was no such peaceful exploitation. These Muhammadans, they wanted to become lumma, kukum(?). Bas. That's all. They were satisfied. But their princely expenditure was done in India. When Shah Jahan constructed the Taj Mahal, heavy expenditure, but the payment was received by the Indians. And here a railway, very smart railway bridge is constructed that... The payment was paid in England. This was the policy. Every even screw, iron screw, was imported from England. Gurudāsa: Yes. India was dependent on tea and cloth from England. Prabhupāda: But tea they also produce it. Gurudāsa: Was it introduced by the English? *Prabhupāda: Yes. India did not know what is tea. They started the tea gardens, and they recruited labors from India. We have seen in our childhood that Mahatma Gandhi Road. When I was standing on the gate, five hundred, six hundred laborers recruited from Bihar. Bihar and Orissa, these two provinces very poor. Even all these colonies, just like Trinidad... Where is Englishmen? If the laborers and Indians were sent... Therefore we find in Mauritius, in Africa, so many Indians. Their kingdom, first of all it was conquered by Indian soldiers. Then, when it was to be organized*-Indian coolies, Indian laborers, Indian guards. They have got men and money, but they expanded Empire. So I am doing the same business: American money, American... (laughs) I am also a great politician. Gurudāsa: Home Bill. Prabhupāda: Yes. But I am not for home. I am for the whole world. It is not... I have no such idea (laughs) that "I shall exploit American men and money for India." That is not my ambition. For the benefit of the whole world. Gurudāsa: You are doing "Back to Home" bill. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jaya. But actually I am exploiting American men and money, from this point of view. But what can I do? I do not make any national distinction, either American or Indian. Gurudāsa: You are not exploiting... Rāmeśvara: Spiritual Communism. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: They were exploiting; you are uplifting. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is train? Rāmeśvara: Yes. Gurudāsa: There's no hurry. Also, if they could only spend their money in England, it means they wouldn't care so much for the country. They wouldn't care for India so much if they were going to spend the money in England. Prabhupāda: No, practically I am spending America's money in a proper way. They would have used it in a different way. Rāmeśvara: Japanese money also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: No distinction. Any money will do. [break] Prabhupāda: There is no exploitation. America has enough money, and India has got enough culture. So they should combine for the benefit of the whole world. Rāmeśvara: Now American culture is highly developed sense gratification. Prabhupāda: That is always. Now they've got enough money, but how they will utilize? That is the only source, outlet. Rāmeśvara: So as the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement increases its influence, then American culture will gradually change? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. As you have changed. You are American. Why not others? Rāmeśvara: So the nightclubs and the cinema, this will be gradually... Prabhupāda: Not required. Rāmeśvara: ...given up. Prabhupāda: They simply produce anxiety. When they will come to understand that they will get better engagement, automatically these nonsense things will be stopped. Rāmeśvara: Television also. Prabhupāda: They can be utilized. Gurudāsa: Yes, they can be utilized. Prabhupāda: In a different way. Rāmeśvara: Formerly civilization did not have so many technological devices. Prabhupāda: This is not civilization. They do not know what is civilization. Suppose a mechanic has constructed this car far better than me. That is not civilization. A good craftsmanship. If you do not know what is the aim of life, what is your duty, then what is your civilization? That they do not know. The first defect of the civilization is that they are taking account of these fifty or sixty years of life. Life is continuation. That they do not know. This life, I am getting this facility of this car; *next life I become a tree. What is the advantage after fifty years, if you are going to be a tree, stand up for five hundred years? This philosophy they do not know. Tathā dehāntara*-praptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Here is the defect, that "You will have to change this body." They have become so dullheaded. "Oh, what is there? I change or die? It doesn't matter. Let me enjoy." This is the difficulty. Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa conscious government must be monarchy. A real Kṛṣṇa conscious government... *Prabhupāda: No. Why monarchy? You can continue democracy, but the legislators should be first*-class men who has knowledge, not these rascals. Rāmeśvara: But the real problem is the businessmen, because they can influence the mass of people by advertising. *Prabhupāda: The mass of people should be educated. Just like we are educating, "No meat*-eating." So automatically the meat-selling, slaughterhouse will be stopped. Rāmeśvara: There must be some controls. Otherwise... Prabhupāda: Yes. Control must be there, that... This is very easy. The state cannot support or maintain slaughterhouse. If you want to eat meat, you kill animal at your home. But state cannot. So mass sinful activities, state cannot. So if the legislators and the head of the state are Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will understand the importance of this. So they can stop slaughterhouse. And the public agitation? "You can slaughter animal at your home. You have got the liberty, but state cannot maintain." What is the wrong there? Rāmeśvara: What about buying books? There are so many books with nonsense ideas. That will have to be controlled also. Prabhupāda: Yes. If the government is Kṛṣṇa conscious, they can control everything. Rāmeśvara: That means the government will have direct controls over all different fields of business. Prabhupāda: It has already. It has already. Rāmeśvara: But in America the government cannot tell the publishing house, "You can only have Kṛṣṇa conscious books." They are tolerating books about sex, books about crime... Prabhupāda: No, if you educate public that these are nasty things, in the school, colleges, where government has control, then automatically sale will be stopped. Gurudāsa: Naturally. Prabhupāda: If you educate people, "Don't waste your time," then they will stop. They are controlling in Russia, publication. Rāmeśvara: Yes, and China also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: But that's why I said... That is not possible, it seems, in a democracy. They have to have dictatorship. Prabhupāda: No, democracy means people elected. If public wants that the election should be amongst the Kṛṣṇa conscious person, then it will be done. One man's ruling will not be possible unless there is dictatorship. Gurudāsa: Consciousness must change. Prabhupāda: Yes. (train sounds) So this is the train. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Still, in some people there will always be some greed how to make money by sinful means. Prabhupāda: No, everyone is greedy. Therefore education required, spiritual. They should be greedy for Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. When they will see this is better position, so their greediness will be for Kṛṣṇa and other thing will be left away. Rāmeśvara: And the state will not tolerate... Prabhupāda: Four classes of sinful activities should be stopped by the state. Rāmeśvara: No manufacturing liquor, cigarettes. Prabhupāda: No. Rāmeśvara: That must be stopped. Gurudāsa: No supporting slaughterhouses. Rāmeśvara: But you said they can do it at their own home. Prabhupāda: Liberty. If you like, you can do at your home. Rāmeśvara: They can make their own alcohol. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Because you cannot stop anyway. [break] Prabhupāda: What is Thela?(?) Gurudāsa: He said that we should drive a little forward. [break] (train whistle, sounds of train starting) Hari-śauri: (devotees attempting to get luggage on train before it starts) Those two go with the women, actually. Leave them down... Abhirāma: Where should I leave them? Hari-śauri: Arundhati. No, leave them in the car. Abhirāma: Who is this for? Prabhupāda's? (doors opening and closing) Gurudāsa: No, they won't leave. Abhirāma: Please, nobody come in the hallway unless necessary. We've got to get everything in. Hari-śauri: This is for... This is not coming in here. Rāmeśvara: Not in this part. That should be stored. Abhirāma: Just stick this in here right now. Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda's case still has to come. Prabhupāda's suitcase is not on. Devotee: Would everyone get out of the room? (voices, shuffling) Hari-śauri: Is that your typewriter? Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Rāmeśvara: Yes, you'd better get off. Abhirāma: Stop the train. Gurudāsa: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Oh. Starting? Gurudāsa: Is it moving? Rāmeśvara: Gurudāsa, you better just jump right off. It's going to start any second. Prabhupāda: No, no. Gurudāsa: I think we're stopping the train. We stopped the train. Hari-śauri: We didn't even move, did we? Gurudāsa: Well, we started to, but everyone... Hari-śauri: We started to move. Gurudāsa: All the devotees pulled these things. Rāmeśvara: This I'm putting underneath here, Hari-śauri. Hari-śauri: Where's Abhirāma? He should go see that Mr. Machoris right away. Bhavānanda: Fulfills all desires. (voices, shuffling) Gurudāsa: So after the Mela I'm going to Vṛndāvana to the roots. Then after that I'm going to Poland. Rāmeśvara: These buckets don't need to be in here. Hari-śauri: No, actually I can handle it. Just let everything sit for now, and I'll get it. (end) *Room Conversationon 1976 Book Scores-*-January 16, 1977, Calcutta Rāmeśvara: This is a very bad picture. It makes the devotees look very strange. And they have this elaborate ghee holder. Prabhupāda: This is our men? Rāmeśvara: Yes. This is at an ārati. You can see the donations that people have put on the tray. But it makes it look very strange, this picture with the lighting. They have deliberately selected this. Prabhupāda: Very big article. Rāmeśvara: Yes. I have just been reading it. Hari-śauri: What newspaper is that? *Rāmeśvara: It's a very small*-time newspaper called the Soho Weekly News. Prabhupāda: And bad propaganda is going on. Gargamuni: Some good, some bad. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are two. Any movement will have such. Gargamuni: So I mentioned this morning about Sumati Satetur(?), Mr. Hoksa Buddhi,(?) that he was considering becoming a devotee. So I told him you were here, so he immediately came tonight. He's waiting now. Prabhupāda: Oh. So then bring him. That's all right. Rāmeśvara: So I can read this and summarize it... Prabhupāda: Later on. Rāmeśvara: ...if there is anything interesting. But this is something that's nice. [break] ...this one first. This is the total sales. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Rāmeśvara: For the year 1976. It lists... The first section lists all the Caitanya*-caritāmṛtas title by title, all seventeen volumes. So last year we sold 55,000 copies of Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: All parts. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Then it lists the Bhāgavatams. We sold 7,000 volume one, First Canto; 46,000 First Canto, volume two; 41,000 First Canto, volume three; 6,000 2.1's; 8,500 5.1's; 8,500 5.2's; 17,000 6.1's; 16,000 6.2's; 16,000 6.3's; 45,000 7.1's, Prahlāda Mahārāja; 15,000 7.2; 16,000 7.3; 16,000 8.1; *and 15,000 8.2. Total Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam sales in English last year, 275,000 hard bound volumes. Then Bhagavad-gītā. Macmillan edition, 5,000; the abridged edition, paper bound, 11,000. Then the abridged edition, hardbound... (laughter) Prabhupāda: Choking. *Rāmeśvara: 606,000 hardbound volumes, for a total sale of Bhagavad*-gītā last year in English, not counting what was printed in India, 622,000 hardbound volumes. Then Kṛṣṇa book, hardbound, 28,000, volume one; 12,000 volume two; 12,000 volume three; making a total of Kṛṣṇa book hardbound sold of 51,000 hardbound volumes. Then Kṛṣṇa trilogies, paper bound: 17,000 volumes one; 19,000 volume two; 24,000 volume three; making a total of 60,000 Kṛṣṇa trilogies. Then 6,000 Teachings of Lord Caitanya, 7,000 Nectar of Devotion, 160,000 Śrī Īśopaniṣad, 100,000 Nectar of Instruction, 253,000 Easy Journey to Other Planets... Prabhupāda: This is the largest sale. (chuckling) Rāmeśvara: 487,000 Perfection of Yoga, 263,000 Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Is Authorized, 10,000 cook books, Hare Kṛṣṇa Cook books, 4,000 Gopal coloring books, and just under 7,000..., excuse me, 7,000,000 Back to Godhead magazines. Now, the total magazines, almost, about 7,000,000. Total small books like Perfection of Yoga, Easy Journey, is 740,000. Total medium books like Kṛṣṇa trilogy, *Śrī Īśopaniṣad*, is 319,000. Total books like cook books, Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Is Authorized, other titles: 280,000. Then total hardbound books: 1,007,000. So the total literatures sold last year is 9,076,280 literatures. Nine million. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Gargamuni: It's only English. Rāmeśvara: This is just English. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...French, German, Dutch, Swedish, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, Japanese, Chinese. (Bengali) We want. (Bengali) Person to person... (Bengali) Huge organization. (Bengali) ...Bhaktivedanta Book Trust... (Bengali)... stock, distribution, salesmen control. (Bengali) ...Delhi paper... (Bengali) We have got substance. (Bengali) So it is very encouraging, this report. What else? *Rāmeśvara: Now the next two reports. First of all, for the month of December there's the ratings for the whole Society. So in the top ten, number one was New York, Rādhā*-Dāmodara, with $170,000. (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Give him some book to read. *Gargamuni: Where's the Bhagavad*-gītā? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (Indian man): I should have some basic knowledge about. *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Bhagavad*-gītā gives basic knowledge. Rāmeśvara: Number two was Los Angeles with $87,000. Number three was Berkeley with $85,000. Number four was San Diego, $62,000. Caracas, 60,000, Brazil and England tied-$48,000. Germany 33,000; Denver 32,000; and Pittsburgh 30,000. And the medium temples weren't so outstanding, but the small temple, Houston, little Houston, $25,000. They only have about twelve men. I cannot understand how hard they worked to do this, very hard. Plus it shows Gurukṛpa's donation, ISKCON food relief donation. Then the outstanding zones for the month. Number one is Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, with $200,000. Number two was my zone. Actually it's your zone, but you've made me manage it a little. $182,000, very close to beating him. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Actually I have noticed that if the West Coast was not divided this year into two zones... Formerly it was just one zone. All Berkeley, it was one zone. Now it is two zones. So I noticed that if it had not been divided, then every month the West Coast would have been number one. Prabhupāda: Combined together. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Then Hṛdayānanda was number three with $155,000. That is very good for Latin America. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: And number four was the Northwest West Coast. That's the other half of the West Coast, with $122,000. Then fifth was $89,000. Which is very good for three temples. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: So the next thing is the entire year, the ratings for the whole year. So number one for zones is Tamāla Kṛṣṇa-$1,000,000 for the whole year. Number two was the area that I have: Los Angeles, Denver and San Diego-$762,000. Number three is Balavanta-$476,000. And number four was the other half of the West Coast-$464,000. You can see that if you put the West Coast as one it would have been $1,200,000 to Tamāla Kṛṣṇa's $1,000,000. But anyway, it's been divided, so he has won. So he's also... New York temple is number one among temples, and his zone is number one among zones. So he has set the whole standard for the whole movement in book distribution. Prabhupāda: All brahmacārī and sannyāsī. Rāmeśvara: My zone is all gṛhasthas (laughs) with a few brahmacārīs. Anyway, next year we can beat Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. (Prabhupāda chuckles) He has only beaten us by a few hundred thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: But don't tell him now. Rāmeśvara: Or it may be ruined. Prabhupāda: He may be very careful. Rāmeśvara: I think we should send him a congratulations letter. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Yes. You send. Rāmeśvara: I'll send him. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Yes. To entice him. Rāmeśvara: This is his main... Prabhupāda: Actually in the beginning, for increasing the sale, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa gave the impetus. He was selling best in San Francisco. Then went from... What is that? We were printing in the beginning? What is the press called? Rāmeśvara: ISKCON Press? Prabhupāda: No, no. I purchased some hand press? Rāmeśvara: Letterpress? Prabhupāda: So that, it has got special name. I forget now. I purchased two presses, $150. Hari-śauri: Mimeograph. Prabhupāda: Mimeograph. Ha ha ha. So we were selling about five hundred copies, and gradually... But still, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa was selling almost major portion. Then I asked Brahmānanda that "Why not print?" So he took quotation from different printers, and Dai Nippon, we gave them, printing, this *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. So he took quotation, ten cents per copy. But they want twenty thousand. So we were selling about one thousand, and it is a question of twenty thousand. So I consulted Tamāla in San Francisco. So he gave me some encourage. I asked Brahmānanda, "Yes, print twenty thousand." So from five hundred to twenty thousand, great jump. Somehow or other, it began like that. Now what we are printing per month? Rāmeśvara: What? Hardbound books? Prabhupāda: No, no, this Back to Godhead. Rāmeśvara: 750,000. It is averaging like that. *Prabhupāda: So the first attempt was only 20,000. I calculated. Anyway, Kṛṣṇa is giving us all facility. Let us utilize it to the best of our capacity. We have no other ambition. We want to see that everyone may accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead and be happy. This is our mission. We have no other ambition, not to make any cost*-profit. But when we see that so many people are reading Kṛṣṇa book, that gives us very good encouragement. Otherwise what...? Two capatis we can get anywhere. Rāmeśvara: We wrote in the newsletter to the Society that even though our movement is being attacked is so many ways, the best counterattack is through book distribution. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the best answer to this opposition. And when the case is there, put all the books before the judge: "Now you read and give your judgment. Don't... You are learned lordship. Please read these books and give your judgment. We have got already judgment from the scholars." Present like that. "But still, because in your court it is presented, so we pray that you give your judgment after understanding our method of brainwash." That will make him flat. *Rāmeśvara: And we gave this proof, another proof that our movement is transcendental to all material obstacles and impediments, that this year in America there was spiraling inflation and unemployment, and the cost of living was therefore rising like anything, but our books, in defiance of all these material trends, were being printed in larger quantities, but the temples were paying less for the books than ever before. And even though all the major airports were closed for, a minimum, six months or more, the hardbound book distribution*-we just looked at the numbers-actually increased by one hundred percent. *Prabhupāda: So it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. "You can do all kinds of opposition, but we shall go forward. The caravan will pass. You may bark." So take all these things as Kṛṣṇa's mercies and engage more enthusiastically. Why should we be defeated? Yuddhyasva mām anusmara [Bg. 8.7]. Just remember Kṛṣṇa and fight. Bas. Fighting is... This material world is fighting. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7]. The karṣati is struggle, but struggle for Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. That's all Rāmeśvara: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Work very hard for Kṛṣṇa one life. Rāmeśvara: You may like to see these, so I can leave them here? Prabhupāda: I have heard it. Śruta. It is śuśruma. Rāmeśvara: When these come out, I frame them on my wall. Prabhupāda: Our method is iti śuśruma: "I have heard it." That's all. (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 16, 1977, Calcutta Prabhupāda: But one cannot give up the family life, and it was an opportunity to give up family life. So it is blessing in disguise. Abhirāma: I'm sometimes thinking that if my activities were more purified... Prabhupāda: Yes. Always be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Abhirāma: But trouble is it seems that in my..., engaged in management work, sometimes my spiritual activities suffer. That is unfortunate. Prabhupāda: No, no. Management is also spiritual activity. Why do you take like that? It is Kṛṣṇa's establishment. Abhirāma: But my wife never sees that, unless I am just chanting japa and offering Deity worship. Otherwise it's all nonsense. Prabhupāda: Well, she is also an woman. She has no much intelligence. But here, to manage Kṛṣṇa's affairs, is also Kṛṣṇa's work. Don't take it otherwise. We must be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. That's all. That is our duty. Fighting is very good business? Killing? But why Arjuna...? "Yes." Kariṣye vacanam. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. And Kṛṣṇa said, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: [Bg. 4.3] "You are My devotee, very dear friend." What he was doing? Fighting. The fighting is good business, to kill others? But for Kṛṣṇa's sake... He personally denied, "No, no, no. I don't want this kingdom." Personally he had no desire. But when he saw that Kṛṣṇa wants it, "All right. I shall do it." And this is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Abhirāma: I always thought that you appreciate it when we try to manage, so therefore I have tried to stay on here. Prabhupāda: No, you are managing very well. I am very satisfied. Do it. There was no water. Sometimes the tap becomes... Abhirāma: Because so many guests are here today. Prabhupāda: Yes. Abhirāma: Some of these boys do not know how to use water. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... Abhirāma: They wash clothes with three or four buckets of water. But otherwise there's... Prabhupāda: Some of them should go there, in the pond. Abhirāma: I have just informed today. Prabhupāda: Yes. When you have got that water tank, it is enjoyable, more, to take bath. Abhirāma: Yes. It is Ganga water also, Ganga water. Prabhupāda: Yes. So as soon as possible they should go there. Hari-śauri: I bathed there this afternoon. It was all right. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very nice. Avagana*-bhak. (?) To dip into the water is refreshing, very refreshing. It is enjoyable. You artificially create tank in your country, bathing tank. And here is tank. Why should you not enjoy? Hari-śauri: Swimming pools. Prabhupāda: Yes. Abhirāma: Gargamuni Swami says it is contaminated, that water. Prabhupāda: It is contaminated for you, not for us. Why contaminated? So many people are taking. In Bengal, all villagers, they take bath in the pond, this tank. Large quantity, water, is not contaminated. A small quantity, water, is contaminated. Abhirāma: Everything is there, the fish and this... Prabhupāda: Yes. Abhirāma: Everything is keeping it clean. So Śrīla Prabhupāda? I have built one home at Māyāpura. Perhaps you have been told. My plan was to leave my wife there because she likes a peaceful place. City life she cannot live. And I would stay in Calcutta, say, four days a week and go on weekends to Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Go. Abhirāma: That way there be some separation. At the same time... Prabhupāda: Gradually full separation. And she'll be... (end) *Room Conversation-*-January 19, 1977, Bhuvaneçvara *Rāmeśvara: But they have never used it against us. But now they have started. One devotee, a girl from Berkeley temple who is a very big book distributor... Sometimes she could collect five, six hundred dollars in one day. She was just kidnapped*-by order of the court. They have a psychologist who listens to the parents' description, and on the basis of that secondhand report the psychologist... Prabhupāda: No, kidnapping, that is already law there. If one is minor or without the permission of the parent, with police force she or..., can be kidnapped. Rāmeśvara: But this is not for minors. This is for adults. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh. Rāmeśvara: This is a new thing, that the psychologist will write some report to the court that "Based on the information I have received, this person is not mentally competent. Therefore this person must be put under the guardianship of their parents even if they are an adult. Otherwise they will harm themselves." So in this way the psychologists... Prabhupāda: But any psychologist will give report or anyone can... Rāmeśvara: Anyone. You just pay him, and he'll give you a report. They are rascals. And then the court issues an order that "Now this person's freedom is taken away," and she's put under the charge of her family for thirty days. Then they come with the police, and they give the paper, and they take her away by force, and they fly her to one of these camps where they harass her for thirty days. Gargamuni: Brainwash. Rāmeśvara: Try to break their faith. Gargamuni: Actually they are brainwashing. Prabhupāda: So this can be done by law? Rāmeśvara: They have some law, and they are misusing it for this purpose. Prabhupāda: Then what to do? Rāmeśvara: Well we have... I mentioned we have got these lawyers who want to start a nationwide organization to fight this law for us. So the head of this group is in San Francisco... Prabhupāda: Now, the... Externally, it appears that anyone can be kidnapped simply by the certificate of the psychologist. *Rāmeśvara: Yes. That is the real point, that this is like Nazi Germany. This is insane. So because it is so anti*-American, then many people who would not normally connect themselves with our movement are now coming forward to help us. Prabhupāda: Yes, they must. Otherwise the freedom is lost. Anyone can be kidnapped. Rāmeśvara: That is what they are realizing, that this may not stop at just Hare Kṛṣṇa. They can kidnap anyone. That's our propaganda to get support. Prabhupāda: Just like emergency. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Hari-śauri: In Russia they do that. When they don't like someone, they put him in a mental home. *Rāmeśvara: That was that whole article I brought from page one of L.A. Times, that how they have made this legal. And now they have got tax exemption. So now it's going to increase. For the next year it's going to increase, because they're going to get a lot of money from the families as tax write*-offs. Prabhupāda: Tax invention? What is that? Rāmeśvara: They call themselves educational organizations. They are educating the public because they do speaking engagements at colleges and different places. So on the basis of that, they applied to the federal government, "Please, we are just an educational group. You must give us tax exemption." So they have been given that. Now people can donate money to them. Instead of paying taxes to the U.S. government, they can donate money to them in exchange for paying taxes. (laughs) So the fighting will get more... Prabhupāda: Intense. Rāmeśvara: This year, definitely. But that means more propaganda for us, more publicity. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (chuckling) Rāmeśvara: And I look forward to it, because we'll smash them in each confrontation. They now realize that when they have a debate against us, they always lose. We have had maybe five or six confrontations in Los Angeles on television and on the radio, and every time they lose. And every time they go away like this. Prabhupāda: (aside:) You can keep there under the bath section. I'll wash there. Hari-śauri: Yes. Rāmeśvara: So actually we're getting all this free exposure on radio and on television. And each time we come off sounding very intelligent, very religious, very nice, and they come off sounding like fanatics and bigots. So people are getting a good impression of us because of the publicity on radio and television. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Sītā was put into the fire and she came out unburned. Sītā was blasphemed, that "This woman was kidnapped by Rāvaṇa, and Rāmacandra is so henpecked that He has again picked up her and living with her." So Rāmacandra put him (her) in the fire and she came unharmed. Rāmeśvara: You were asking me what is the use of, say, if you came to America, if you were on television. But actually people are very interested in this issue, so they will listen. They are listening to see us, hoping that we will be exposed. Prabhupāda: Now, Hari-śauri was (saying) that there are many fanatics. They may attack me: "He's the man who has started this movement." Gargamuni: Yes. Hari-śauri: These deprogrammers will go to any length. Gargamuni: They'll do anything to stop it. You'd have to have professional bodyguards. Rāmeśvara: This Reverend Moon, he is not being attacked. The other leaders aren't. Gargamuni: I think you should carry on your fighting from India through your other men. Rāmeśvara: Or at least a place like Hawaii. Gargamuni: I feel if you went to America during this fight it may be very dangerous also. Rāmeśvara: It's possible. Gargamuni: Because there's a lot of crazy... These people are crazy. But you could give your orders from India, and this way the fight can go on. Hari-śauri: Hawaii is unaffected. Rāmeśvara: Hawaii is not involved so much. Gargamuni: Still, if they heard he was in Hawaii they may go there. No one will come to India, to Bhuvaneśvara. It's dangerous there. Rāmeśvara: But we were just thinking that if Prabhupāda spends a few months every year outside of India, his time won't be so occupied by all the particular management things that he has to think about in India. Hari-śauri: Give Prabhupāda some relief. Rāmeśvara: There'll be some relief. Hari-śauri: At least when you go to Hawaii you always get a good rest and there's no visitors, and it's very... Your translation work increases tremendously. It's very nice there. Prabhupāda: Our immediately problem is toward my health. I am not digesting food, so therefore there is some swelling in the hands and the legs. Rāmeśvara: That's due to the kidney? Prabhupāda: Kidney or whatever it may be. Rāmeśvara: So is it affecting your translation work? Prabhupāda: That is not affected. That is going on. I have translated today seventeen volumes (verses?). That does not affect. *Rāmeśvara: So what to do? (Prabhupāda turns on dictaphone, then off. On again*-reading verse) This is the twenty-fourth chapter, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Rāmeśvara: Text five. How many verses are there in this chapter? You know, Hari-śauri? It's very exciting, because it's just about to begin the Tenth Canto. Prabhupāda: Good number. Rāmeśvara: Pradyumna was telling me how the last verses of the chapter describe the appearance, getting ready for the appearance of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sixty*-seven. I am on the five. Hari-śauri: I think the pen's still in the case. Or the pencil's still in the red case. Rāmeśvara: We know you have a very low opinion of doctors. (laughter) Prabhupāda: I wish to die without a doctor. Don't... When I am... It may be. I may be seriously, but don't call doctor. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't be disturbed. Everyone has to die. Let us die peacefully, without doctor. All this medicine, injections, and prohibitions, this, that. Hari-śauri: Tīrtha Mahārāja had all kinds of machines. Still didn't save him. Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and depend on Kṛṣṇa. Actually... Nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ. That is the Prahlāda Mahārāja's verse. Find out this. Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nṛsiṁha. Seventh Canto. Rāmeśvara: Volume Two. That's it. Hari-śauri: What was that again? *Prabhupāda: Bālasya. B*-a-l-a. *Hari-śauri: Bālasyāntaḥpura*-sthas... Prabhupāda: Bālasya neha. Hari-śauri: Oh. Bālasya neha. Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nṛsiṁha nārtasya cāgadam... Prabhupāda: Nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ. *Hari-śauri: Taptasya tat*-pratividhir ya ihāñjaseṣṭas. Prabhupāda: Ihāñjaseṣṭas. *Hari-śauri: Tāvad vibho tanu*-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām [SB 7.9.19]. *Prabhupāda: Tvad*-upekṣitānām. Hari-śauri: "My Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, O Supreme, because of a bodily conception of life, embodied souls neglected and not cared for by You cannot do anything for their betterment." Prabhupāda: That's it. Hari-śauri: "Whatever remedies they accept, although perhaps temporarily beneficial, are certainly impermanent. For example, a father and mother cannot protect their child, a physician and medicine cannot relieve a suffering patient, and a boat on the ocean cannot protect a drowning man." Prabhupāda: These are facts. Gargamuni: That's ultimately, but maybe we could give you some temporary relief so we don't feel... Because when you are ill, we feel... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... But for that, no severe treatment should be accepted. Better not to take. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the past, when your health has not been good, they have begun chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa in all the temples... Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: ...all around the world. Rāmeśvara: Special, additional kīrtana. Bhavānanda: Perhaps we should institute that. That would... Prabhupāda: No, you... Not for my health you do your kīrtana, only then. That first stroke in Second Avenue, that was fatal. You were present, I think. Gargamuni: Yes. I went to the hospital with Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa saved. Otherwise that was fatal. Gargamuni: The doctor said that "How is it that he is still here?" They said. Prabhupāda: When? Gargamuni: When you had that attack. Prabhupāda: Ha, ha. *Gargamuni: It was during the... You were lecturing on Caitanya*-caritāmṛta in the morning lectures you were giving. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gargamuni: I can remember. And one morning you said you were not feeling well. And the doctor said... I can remember. Your left side was paralyzed. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paralyzed, yes. Gargamuni: Left side. And this is most dangerous, the doctor said. Maybe for swelling we can increase the massaging to three times a day. Hari-śauri: That's what this guy told me, not to massage very much. Gargamuni: Oh. Hari-śauri: At least not while the swelling is there. Actually that medicine that Shiv Sharma gave you, that was reduced. I don't think this homeopathic medicine is any good. Prabhupāda: So you can give me that. Gargamuni: My father, he also used to get swelling, but this was due to diabetes. Prabhupāda: I have got diabetes also. Gargamuni: He was getting swelling in his legs and hands. But he had to take this insulin, and this kept the swelling nil by taking insulin. Every morning he would give himself a shot. But he had no more swelling. Hari-śauri: He'd just stick a needle in his arm every morning. Prabhupāda: There are many gentlemen who take insulin twice, at least once. *Rāmeśvara: The diabetics. They have diabetes. Very common. We have a devotee who does that. This boy in New York whose parents have kidnapped him many times. He is actually... That's their charge against us, that "Oh, my son is diabetic, and you are not spending $25,000 on doctors. You are not taking care of him." That is their charge against us. Then Ādi*-keśava Mahārāja said, "All right, if you want him to have such excellent medical treatment, you give us the money and we'll spend it on it." So then the parents say, "Just see! Blackmail." That is a big charge in the paper. It's called extortion. Ādi-keśava Mahārāja was indicted for kidnapping and for extortion. Hari-śauri: He's that Ed Shapiro. Rāmeśvara: Yes. The parents cheated again. They said, "Just see, blackmail." Hari-śauri: That's how that charge came up. Rāmeśvara: Yes. They lie and say, "This president, he said, 'If you do not give us this money, we will let your son die.' " Prabhupāda: In a different way. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Gargamuni: He didn't write it, did he? Rāmeśvara: No, it was on the telephone. But he has been charged by a Grand Jury of attempted extortion. Hari-śauri: They can never prove that. It's ridiculous. Rāmeśvara: I have heard that now, this month, we have already been on the biggest television shows in America, big night shows. They have these shows that go two, three hours at a time, and everyone in America watches them. Forty million people watch them. So we've already been on those shows now. Our devotees have already been on those shows now because of this controversy. We're becoming more famous. Prabhupāda: And they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: Yes. Jayapatākā: You are getting everyone to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Yadaiva śraddhāiva(?). Some way or other, let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So that is being done, whole countrywide. It has become a national show. (laughter) Gargamuni: All over the world. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Hari-śauri: Every town and village. Jayapatākā: If you ask them who is Vivekananda, no one knows. But everyone knows Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: We are known as "Hare Kṛṣṇas," and sometimes "Kṛṣṇas." Hari-śauri: They call us the "Harries." Prabhupāda: (laughing) Acchā? Rāmeśvara: In the deprogrammer newsletter that we intercepted, they did not like to chant so much, so after awhile they just started saying "The HKs." They didn't want to say the whole name of God. You noticed that? Prabhupāda: Now, "H," to pronounce it, and "Hare," Hare is shorter. "H." It is a long. Rāmeśvara: But for writing, "HK." Prabhupāda: Writing, you can, but if you say, "HK," it is not shorter than Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is longer than Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Rāmeśvara: Anyway, whenever they see "HK," they are thinking in their mind, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Then what is the news of Germany? *Rāmeśvara: The news from Germany? I have not heard any change*-except that Satsvarūpa's men, they began... Just before Christmas the schools close. They began to go to Germany to take standing orders, and it was the most difficult country, they said, very difficult. And because... One of the reasons is they have such a very bad opinion of us. The church is against us. But still, they managed to get a few standing orders, and then the schools closed for Christmas. Hari-śauri: Any reviews? Rāmeśvara: Not yet. They just began. Now they are spending this month, January and February, in Germany. This will be very valuable for our case there, if the scholars begin appreciating us from a different angle. But meanwhile, book distribution is bigger than ever in Germany. Prabhupāda: That is the proof we are gaining ground. *Hari-śauri: The two champion big*-book distributors are both German boys. Rāmeśvara: Yes. They have outdistributed everyone, even in America. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Paraṁ vijāyate śrī*-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. Just see how small animal it is, and how freely it is going. Let them manufacture a small animal like this with chemicals. It has got all the symptoms of animal. It has got the desire. It has thinking, feeling, willing, then eating, sleeping, mating. Everything is there. And as such, the anatomic physiology is there, within such a full stop. Everything is there. If you check them going here, they'll protest. And wherefrom they are coming? Where they are going? Just see how small it is. You cannot see even with naked eyes, so small. But it has all life symptoms. And they say there is no soul. Rāmeśvara: No, it is some wonderful chemical mixture that they have not discovered yet, very mysterious chemistry. It is all based on this idea of a study of genes and chromosomes, genetics. They have so many words for describing how it happens. Prabhupāda: Jugglery, word jugglery. Rāmeśvara: DNA, RNA. Hari-śauri: But they still can't explain the power force that activates them. They still can't explain the actual source of power that activates those chemicals. Prabhupāda: They cannot. It is not possible. Rāmeśvara: In the late 1800's there was a very famous story in America called Frankenstein. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: This Doctor Frankenstein, he took dead bodies from the graveyards, and he sewed them together, and then, by electrical energy, it charged... Prabhupāda: This is imagination. Rāmeśvara: ...like a battery. Prabhupāda: "Young Frankenstein." Oh, I have seen that picture. (laughter) Rāmeśvara: But actually people all over the Western world then became convinced that one day science will create life. This popularized the idea. Prabhupāda: How rascal they have been educated. Mūḍha. Rāmeśvara: And the only problem was he had the wrong brain. Prabhupāda: Huh? Rāmeśvara: They took the brain from a known criminal and put it inside the dead man. So when he came back to life he was a demon. That's their only problem, they say. If they'd only taken a brain from a dead body who was a good man, then everything would have been all right. Prabhupāda: Why do you not take the brain of scientist and make another scientist? Why you should, they should regret "That this scientist is dead"? Rāmeśvara: That's their goal. That is their goal. Prabhupāda: Goal that may be, but what they have done? That is the first thing. Rāmeśvara: Then another goal they have is, by controlling the genes, they expect that one day they will be able to produce many men with the same talents, with the same physical appearance, duplicate. *Prabhupāda: "Will," everything "will." (chuckles) Never practical. Such a rascal, they are going on as scientists. Everything in future. "Trust no future, however pleasant." And they are depending everything on future. "Yes, we are trying. We shall do it within millions of years." And people believe that. Rāmeśvara: Because there's no God, so this is the only hope*-science. The only hope for immortality is science. That's what people think. Prabhupāda: But that is bogus. Rāmeśvara: That means people want to believe in immortality. They want eternal life. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is factual. Nobody wants to die. Even on death bed, one thinks, "If something could have been done for my saving..." One gentleman in Allahabad, he was our friend. So he was dying at the age of fifty*-four. So he was requesting the doctors, "Can you not prolong my life for four years more? Then I could finish my scheme." Such a madman. What is nonsense scheme? Āśā-pāśa-śatair baddhāḥ kāma... Find out this, āśā-pāśa-śatair baddhaḥ. Hari-śauri: *Prabhupāda: Anyāyenārtha*-sañcayān. Hari-śauri: "They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification." Prabhupāda: Is there any purport? Hari-śauri: "The demoniac accept that the enjoyment of the senses is the ultimate goal of life, and this concept they maintain until death. They do not believe in life after death, and they do not believe that one takes on different types of bodies according to one's karma, or activities in this world. Their plans for life are never finished, and they go on preparing plan after plan, all of which are never finished. We have personal experience of a person of such demoniac mentality..." Prabhupāda: I am talking of that man. (laughter) Hari-śauri: "...who even at the point of death was requesting the physician to prolong his life for four years more because his plans were not yet complete. Such foolish people do not know that a physician cannot prolong life even for a moment. When the notice is there, there is no consideration of the man's desire. The laws of nature do not allow a second beyond what one is destined to enjoy. The demoniac person, who has no faith in God or the Supersoul within himself, performs all kinds of sinful activities simply for sense gratification. He does not know that there is a witness sitting within his heart. The Supersoul is observing the activities of the individual soul. As it is stated in Vedic literature, the Upaniṣads, there are two birds sitting in one tree. One is acting and enjoying or suffering the fruits of the branches, and the other is witnessing. But one who is demoniac has no knowledge of Vedic scripture, nor has he any faith. Therefore he feels free to do anything for sense enjoyment, regardless of the consequence." *Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. So on the whole, people are in darkness. And that is going on as advancement. This is the only institution to give them some light. There is no doubt about it. All in the darkness. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. They are in darkness, and some leader comes, he is also in the darkness, and both of them fall into the ditch. This is going on. Do you agree to this point? Otherwise you cannot become good preacher. You must yourself, must be convinced that actually this is the position. All these rascals, scientists, philosophers, politicians-they're all in darkness, and they're misguiding people. That's all. One of the first-class rascal in darkness is your Darwin. He's in favor of Darwin's theory. Another first-class demon is that Freud. (laughter) These are the guides of the modern civilization. Anthropomorphism. No? What is called? Gargamuni: Anthropology? Prabhupāda: Anthropology. Jayapatākā: Now the latest demon is the one who says the population theory, overpopulation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: He is causing the trouble now. *Prabhupāda: Because everyone is ghostly-haunted and speaking all nonsense. Piśācī pāile yena mati-cchana haya, māyār grasta jīvera sei dāsa upajaya. One who is under the control of māyā, he speaks like ghostly-haunted man*-all nonsense. *Jayapatākā: They're actually ghostly*-haunted, or as if ghostly-haunted? *Prabhupāda: Ghostly*-haunted. māyā is acting as ghost. They attack mostly their guardians-father, mother. These ghostly-haunted men becomes very inimical to the guardians and wants to kill them. Many cases. And abuses the father, mother, like anything. "Ah! You rascal! Why you have come? I shall kill you!" Like that. I have seen it. Mad, you call, or ghostly-haunted. Very dangerous. Jayapatākā: What is the cure? Prabhupāda: No cure. He must die. No cure. These hospitals are there, mental. They keep in the mental hospital. But ultimately there is no cure. *Jayapatākā: I read one... In a purport you said that hari*-nāma can even cure insane people. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hari*-nāma can cure anything. You have kept there. All right. Jayapatākā: Would you like to take a drive to that... (end) Prabhupāda: ...available plots. Gargamuni: Yes, there's those two plots on that main... Now, there's many broken buildings there, many. I drove all around. But the plots are too small. Rāmeśvara: You'd have to buy several of them together. *Gargamuni: Yes. And also they're out of the city. They're more out of reach. They're not in that... That one area is the best area. There's a two*-lane road. You know, traffic going one way and traffic going another way with an island in the center. Rāmeśvara: And all the hotels are there. Gargamuni: And all the hotels are there, so all the top people are there. Rāmeśvara: It sounds like Bombay. *Gargamuni: And that Purī hotel was packed up with foreigners and with local people very nicely dressed. And this plot is just near the Purī hotel. So it's a nice area, and the breeze is wonderful, very nice breeze from the ocean. So if we build a nice multi*-story, that breeze will be very healthy. Prabhupāda: So... Gargamuni: So I have to leave here tomorrow morning at 8:30 and meet with the man at around 9:30, 10:00, and he'll give me all the names and addresses, and he'll show me some other plots. Then, perhaps, if maybe you would like to see it the following day, we can drive there and show you the plot as soon as I get more information. Rāmeśvara: Would you like to do that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hari-śauri: Have you been to Purī for a long time? Prabhupāda: Oh, several times. Hari-śauri: I mean in recent years or... Prabhupāda: No. Recently I'm not going because my disciples are not allowed. I don't wish to go. *Gargamuni: I was here during Durgā*-pūjā, and there were thousands of people entering that temple, thousands. I mean... There was just a tide all day long. So I know if we have a temple... Prabhupāda: Yes. Last I went to see, before going to USA, in 1958. Rāmeśvara: Almost twenty years. Prabhupāda: Yes. 1958, yes. After that, I had no chance of going. Rāmeśvara: There's no doubt that if we build a temple there it must be very, very magnificent. Prabhupāda: Because after some years I went to USA, in 1966, er '65. 1958 or '59, I went there. For four, five years naturally. And after going to USA there was no chance. Gargamuni: In front of the temple, though, is so many beggars. You cannot walk peacefully. In front of the temple so many beggars, and no one is giving... *Prabhupāda: In 1920 I came to Bhuvaneśvara. So I was thronged with so many beggars. So at that time I promised, "If I bring at least"*-in those days-"more than one thousand rupees to distribute to the beggars, then I shall come. I'll not come." (laughs) I thought like that. Means whatever money I had I will distribute. Still, they are thronging, the beggars. So much beggars have now come. Beggars. Very poor country. Gargamuni: We could have very big prasādam distribution there, in Purī. Right on the beach we could set up a whole prasāda distribution. Prabhupāda: If you arrange for prasāda distribution, you become very popular. Rāmeśvara: None of the tourists who are Westerners ever takes Jagannātha prasādam, do they? Prabhupāda: No, if there is good prasādam, they'll take. Gargamuni: Tourists... We'll send in the sweet shops, but... Prabhupāda: If they understand they are very palatable. Gargamuni: But that beachfront, if we're on there, we can use that beach as a place to feed thousands of people. Rāmeśvara: Of course, all the pilgrims that come to Purī for the temple festivals, they'll also come to our temple if it is very big. Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Rāmeśvara: But what style will it be? It will be a different style of architecture. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana? That will be new introduction here. Hari-śauri: Vṛndāvana's not a very big temple. Prabhupāda: Not big, but... Bombay. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's the same, along the same lines at least. Gargamuni: Shouldn't it be higher than the Purī temple or less? Rāmeśvara: We can make it higher for not too much extra cost. The height is not that expensive. I was talking... Gargamuni: Height should be... Because you can see Purī temple from the road ten miles away. Rāmeśvara: It would be suitable, appropriate, if this temple was taller. Prabhupāda: That can be done. Gargamuni: 'Cause then it could be seen from miles away. Hari-śauri: Bombay temple was restricted for height. Otherwise it was going to be higher. Gargamuni: Because along the road, say about ten kilometers, they have a sign, "Look to your right, and you will see Purī in your sight." They have a sign, like a poem. Prabhupāda: Where? Gargamuni: Along the road. They say, "Look to your right, and you will see Lord Jagannātha temple in your sight." And sure enough, you see, coming up, about ten miles out of the city, that temple. So similarly if we have a very high temple it can be seen. Rāmeśvara: "Look to your left." (chuckling) This is very exciting, this idea of building in Purī. And Prabhupāda said the main Deities would be Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. Hari-śauri: If we build in Purī, will we have Jagannātha? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagannātha, Nitāi*-Gaura, Guru-Gaurāṅga... *Rāmeśvara: And Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma, like Vṛndāvana. Rāmeśvara: That will also be very wonderful, to have Lord Gaurāṅga on the altar. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: Yes. That's very important now, Lord Caitanya. *Rāmeśvara: Very big Deities. That would be good if there were big Gaura*-Nitāi Deities. Gargamuni: Yes, there should be huge Deities. Hari-śauri: Like in Hyderabad. There's those very big Deities there, five feet or something. Prabhupāda: Five feet? Deity we can get it done here also. But there is no white stone. Stone is available here. Gargamuni: Yes, stone they have, but no marble. Prabhupāda: Anything made of iron corrodes. Gargamuni: Iron. Yes. We have to be very careful of the type materials that we use. Also near the sea, I think on cement that has some effect. We'd have to make the temple out of stone or marble. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: So that it will last... Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: ...many centuries. Hundreds of years. Gargamuni: Yes. Because I have seen all of the cement buildings. Within five or ten years it's finished. You have to put a new plastering. So I think we have to use either stone or marble. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: White marble. Rāmeśvara: Whew! That's expensive. Hari-śauri: Stone is not so bad. Rāmeśvara: If you have stone and cover it with marble. Gargamuni: Well, it depends what type of stone. They have that red stone in Rajasthan, like in Vṛndāvana. You've seen that red stone? Very nice. They're using that in... I saw a big hotel in Bombay. They have used that stone, very beautiful, that red stone that you see in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Red stone. That is very durable. *Gargamuni: That Kesi*-ghāṭa, that is made of that red stone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: They're using it, I saw, in one hotel on the front in Bombay, very beautiful. Prabhupāda: Where? Gargamuni: In Bombay. I saw while we were driving in a taxi downtown. It's a new hotel, and they had that red stone. It's the first time I saw it in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Hm. The red stone is very durable. Gargamuni: But the building... Whatever building we build would require much maintenance due to the fact that it's near the ocean. Like I've noticed fans. They rust when they're near the ocean. So they probably would have to painted once a year. We'd have to paint at least once a year, paint everything. Prabhupāda: Anything made of iron will corrode. Gargamuni: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore this reinforced concrete is not good. Gargamuni: No. Unless it is, we put marble over it. Then it's all right. Prabhupāda: Even bricks. Gargamuni: Yes, bricks also fade away. I have seen. The bricks have become so small on those buildings, the ones, the buildings that are broken down. Those buildings can't be more than twenty or thirty years old. Prabhupāda: Only? Gargamuni: Yes. I saw one... In Gopalpur I saw one built in 1938 called Blue Haven, and there was nothing left of it. The whole thing just corroded away. There was just a few things left. And the sign, the marble sign said 1938. Prabhupāda: 1930 is very recent. Gargamuni: So that's a matter of thirty, fourty years. There was nothing left of the cement, and the bricks were finished. So we'd have to take careful advice of making it out of stone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Stone or marble. Prabhupāda: In Bhuvaneśvara you can have stone. Gargamuni: Yes. Rāmeśvara: To build such a big temple you'll need many devotees. Gargamuni: Oh, yes. Rāmeśvara: Pūjārīs, cooks, collectors, life members. You need at least fifty devotees. So it's going to take a little while to get... Prabhupāda: Big temple means at least fifty men. Hari-śauri: Yes. Gargamuni: But I know there'll be no problem getting people there. It's real nice. Rāmeśvara: The thing is if we start off, gradually, as the construction is going on, if there's a group of people that are working there, maybe some local people will join us too. Gargamuni: Oh, yes. We'll get local men to join. Rāmeśvara: So who will make that their...? That's the real question. Who will sit there? Gargamuni: I'll stay. I'll stay. Important project. Prabhupāda: Coconut tree can grow. Gargamuni: Yes. And I think cashew. These cashews they also grow. Prabhupāda: Cashew. And jao. Gargamuni: What is Jao? Prabhupāda: What is called, jao? This fiberlike bricks. That is grown very... Hari-śauri: Some kind of a fruit? Prabhupāda: No fruit. Evergreen. It is called evergreen. Gargamuni: Oh, yes. I have seen them growing on the beach there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Yes. These pine trees like evergreen tree. Prabhupāda: Yes, evergreen. Gargamuni: I saw some there. Prabhupāda: That is grown. And that tree is very costly here in India. Gargamuni: Cashews are very costly. Prabhupāda: When I was going to your country at Cochin, they loaded in the ship cashews, black pepper, and lobster, big, big cases. There are many American firms. They are export business. Lobster is very favorite food in USA. Although it is rotten, still, they take it. Gargamuni: My father used to take at least once a week. Prabhupāda: Lobster juice. Gargamuni: Lobster and everything, the juice... He used to eat many lobster, King lobster. Rāmeśvara: That's a big business. In the state of Maine, that is one of their main sources of income, lobster. Famous, Maine... That state... Prabhupāda: They get lobster locally or... Rāmeśvara: They fish. The waters... Gargamuni: They farm them. It's become like farming. They raise them in scientific way now. Prabhupāda: Like they grow chicken. Gargamuni: Yes. It's all scientific. Rāmeśvara: And they sell all over America. Gargamuni: They artificially fatten them up. *Prabhupāda: For fish*-eater, lobster is very favorite. Gargamuni: Yes. With butter. Prabhupāda: Here. Here in India. Gargamuni: They use with butter. Prabhupāda: Butter? But it has butter, fish. Gargamuni: No, but they dip in butter. That's how my... They used to serve. My father, he used to take like that. And lemon, lemon juice. Also, Prabhupāda, when I was in Dacca... I think I told you that when I was there they were willing to sign over that land to our society. It's a very nice plot. Prabhupāda: Gauḍīya Matha. Gauḍīya Matha. Gargamuni: Yes. Because no one is maintaining, and he has no followers, and, he knows, when he dies then there's nothing. So he was interested. And not only him, but his supporters were also pushing him to sign it over, and they had agreed. But then the war broke out, and I left, and I think a lot of them have been killed who were his main finance backers. He had some lawyers and doctors who were donating, but I think they have all been killed. So now he has no one. So recently some of our men have gone to Dacca for visa to come back, and he's still interested, more so now. Prabhupāda: He's not killed. Gargamuni: No. He survived. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Long life. *Gargamuni: Yes. He's very old. I think he's eighty, eighty*-five or something. So I have to leave the country by the thirtieth 'cause my visa is finished. So I was thinking that I should go to Dacca for a few days and meet him again and see about this land and also whether we can get the society registered in Bangladesh. Prabhupāda: That you can... Gargamuni: Yes. Well, a Muslim state, but maybe he can help us. And I want to see if he's really serious or whether he... You know... Prabhupāda: He was under whose control? Gargamuni: Tīrtha Mahārāja. But they never gave him anything. They never gave him men; they never gave him money, nothing. Rāmeśvara: Not even letters. *Gargamuni: No. They never even wrote him. They didn't care. And there's still a foundation. From 1948 there is a foundation there of a building which was started in 1947 or '48, and I was very surprised because the building has a frame of steel girders, not cement but steel, big steel girder. It has a frame. I think it's about a two*-story building, say half the size of Māyāpura building, half the size. And the frame is still there. I asked Pañcaratna who went there if it was still there or whether it was blown away by the war. He said, "No, it is still there." So there's already a building. There's a stone wall around the property. I think it's around, maybe, about three-quarters to an acre. But it's in the heart of the city. It's in a good area, a very populated area but very nice area also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: So I thought I would go there and see and then come back, get a new visa and then return and give a report. Prabhupāda: So it will be nice. That was started by my Guru Mahārāja. We have to take. Gargamuni: Yes. Because after he goes there's nothing. *Prabhupāda: Tīrtha Mahārāja was planning to exchange that property with a Calcutta Muhammadan, that he would give him that property, and this Muhammadan would give him this property, his property. I checked it. I approached the donor, the Bali*-hatti(?) zamindar, that "You donated this temple and it is going to be in the hands of Muhammadan. Do you like it?" So he said, "No, I don't like it." I said, "Make it inquiry." He inquired, and he immediately wrote Tīrtha Mahārāja that "You are contemplating. This we do not approve. We are the donor." So Tīrtha Mahārāja replied him that "It is no more in the hands of the donor. I am the trustee. Whatever I like, I can do." Gargamuni: Ruthless. Prabhupāda: Then he... There was very strong correspondence, and Tīrtha Mahārāja could not dare to do it. Otherwise he arranged like that, to give the temple to a Muhammadan and accept a Calcutta property which belonged to the Muhammadan. Gargamuni: So when he could not do that, he just left it. Prabhupāda: Yes. He had no spiritual idea. Simply he wanted to exploit the property. That's all. Gargamuni: So maybe we can save that place. Prabhupāda: Yes. If we can do, it will be a great service. Gargamuni: 'Cause still there is fifteen million Hindus in Bangladesh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: When I was there, there were many doctors and lawyers, and I think all of them have been murdered. I think the only Hindus that are left are the poor people. But while I was there the teachers and the lawyers... The most prominent lawyer was Hindu. Doctors, all educated men. Prabhupāda: Dead. Gargamuni: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just see the policy. Gargamuni: But they, I think annihilated all of the... Anyone who had any education... Just like that boy. He was translating your books? They shot him in front of firing squad. One boy. I printed one book there in Bengali, I think, three thousand copies: The Peace Formula and Who is Crazy, I think. It was about fifteen pages. They gave me some donation. Even the Gopāla... His name was Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Brahmacārī. He also gave me from his pocket. And I printed... We had it translated in Bengali, but then... Prabhupāda: He was killed? Gargamuni: Yes, for translating. He was shot in... Not him but this other brahmacārī, young boy, very nice boy. His name was Karuṇāmayī. Rāmeśvara: For translating it they did it. Gargamuni: Yes, for translating. They wanted to annihilate anyone who had any literary talent. That was their idea. Or anyone who had any education. So that after they left the country there wouldn't be anything. Because they knew they had to leave one day because of the revolutionary spirit. So they thought, "Let us ravage the whole country and then leave." And that's what they did. Their main attack was the university. When I was there that was their first attack 'cause that university was a very old one and... Prabhupāda: Yes, Dacca University next to Calcutta University. Just see how human beings are becoming less than ferocious animals. *Gargamuni: Even one man, he was making a plaque in your name in thankfulness for preaching this Vaiṣṇava*-dharma. He was making a wooden plaque, and he was a doctor of physics at the university. And one night they came in and shot him and his whole family, this man. He was very helpful to us while we were there. Prabhupāda: Only fault that he was making some... Gargamuni: No, his fault was that he had some education. Anyone who was doing anything... This one boy who was translating your books, he was a very educated person. He was about thirty years old. Prabhupāda: Hindu. Gargamuni: Hindu. Yes. He was brahmacārī there at the āśrama. He was the chief pūjārī. But he joined us. We toured a few areas, and he came with us and arranged for everything. And he joined us, and he was translating. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Now take this. Gargamuni: And we printed the book. I saw it. But then the war broke out a few days after it was ready, so I had to leave all the copies there. When I go there I will try and find it. Maybe it is still there. We spent about five hundred rupees. Five, six hundred rupees. Prabhupāda: What Pakistan has gained by this separation? Actually they have not gained. Gargamuni: By the separation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Of Bangladesh? Prabhupāda: No. Gargamuni: Or of India? Prabhupāda: India. Gargamuni: Oh, they haven't gained anything. Prabhupāda: Karachi is finished. Nobody goes there. Gargamuni: It's a desert. I have been there. It's horrible place. Prabhupāda: When you went there? Gargamuni: When I came from Dacca there was only one flight a day because of the war. They could not overfly India, so there was one flight a day to Dacca to Ceylon to Karachi. Prabhupāda: Oh, long distance. Gargamuni: Yes. Very long flight. So I was number 15,000 on the list. Everybody camped out at the airport. Because of the war everyone wanted to leave. So there was a line of 15,000 people. They gave me my number. I was 15,000. So we waited at the airport. I said, "I can't wait here," because the bombs were dropping and the tanks were coming and the troops were coming and... I said, "I gotta get out of here." So I spoke with the commander, and I played him a tape of kīrtana. I had a tape, and they... All the officers, they were Mussulmen from Pakistan, and they started clapping: "Oh, kīrtana." You know. So I asked him, "Could you allow me to go on board before all the others? There's no use in us staying here. Who knows what will happen? We are foreigners." We were dressed as sādhus also. So he allowed us to go on in front of everyone. So we managed to leave. Prabhupāda: What was the condition at that time, general, during the war? Gargamuni: Where? In Dacca? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: There was starvation immediately. There was no food in the whole city. I was living on capatis. That's all we had. Course, we were very nervous, so we couldn't eat so much anyway because there was so much going on in the city, bombings and firing. Prabhupāda: And general public? Gargamuni: And most of the army, they imported the army from Pakistan. These men were six feet tall. These were... They have a certain name. Prabhupāda: Jatha? No. Gargamuni: Jatha? No. Rathan or something. Prabhupāda: Pathan. Pathan. Gargamuni: Yes. Very huge men. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: So in comparison to the Bengali, they were very small. So they were very fearful of these fighters. The whole Pakistani army was made of these Pathans. Prabhupāda: Pathans. Gargamuni: Very huge men, very tall. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gargamuni: So there was great fear in the hearts of the people 'cause they're very small. And all of the equipment was imported from America, all the tanks, the jeeps, all the planes and*-all American Prabhupāda: Why American patronize Pakistan? Gargamuni: Because... Against Russia. India is with Russia. And China... Also the Pakistanis... When I was in Pakistan, they have great love for the Chinese people. When I was there it was more than the Americans. They liked the Chinese more than the Americans. 'Cause I went to the Karachi University 'cause I thought we could start some preaching there. So I met the professor of philosophy and he had agreed that we could give some lecture, but not on Indian culture but on yoga or something. So the students there were very much... They liked the Chinese. They were always talking, "Oh, China." So China is also opposed to Russia. So in this way the sides were taken. But it's a hellish place there. It's all sand. Prabhupāda: Karachi. Gargamuni: Yes. Very hot. We used to get our fruit... There was no place where we could eat, so we used to buy fruit and nuts at the Empress Market, very big market. Prabhupāda: Dacca. Gargamuni: No, in Karachi. A very huge market. They have, very good, these grapefruits. They're very sweet there. Prabhupāda: Grape. Gargamuni: Grapefruit. You know, like orange? Prabhupāda: Oh, ah. Gargamuni: But very sweet tasting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Very nice. Prabhupāda: Yellowish or greenish? Gargamuni: No. They're pinkish inside, pink color. Yellow skin but pink inside and very sweet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmuja. (?) And some sweet scent also. Gargamuni: Yes. They're very nice. We ate so many of them. (Hari-śauri preaching to someone in background:) Hari-śauri: Because He's the Supreme Person. You're worshiping Indira Gandhi or in America they're worshiping Nixon or Ford. In Britain they're worshiping someone else. Everyone is worshiping someone who is better than he is. You may go to work and worship your boss because he'll give you a better pay check. Prabhupāda: That is preaching. (chuckling with devotees) Gargamuni: I read in the paper. They're having elections in March. Prabhupāda: Karachi? Gargamuni: No, here, here in India. They're holding election. Because of the emergency, they had banned the election. Rāmeśvara: In Bengal there'll be an election? Gargamuni: No, all over India for the Lok Sabha, for the Parliament. Rāmeśvara: So Tarun Kanti will be up for election? Gargamuni: No. That's something else. This is for the Parliament. Rāmeśvara: So Indira's not being up for election. Gargamuni: No. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: Just the Parliament members, that's all, not the ministers. Prabhupāda: No, Indira... She must be Parliament member. Gargamuni: Yes, but I don't think she's affected. I didn't read. I just saw on the man's desk. I just saw the elections to be held. Rāmeśvara: She's from Allahabad? Gargamuni: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: So she's Parliament. Maybe for her also. Rāmeśvara: It'll be fixed. *Gargamuni: So, Prabhupāda, I'll have to leave on the 25th from here 'cause I could only get a 28*-day visa from Kathmandu. So I have to leave the country by the 30th. So I'll go to Dacca and check everything out and then return and give report, and we can decide what we should do. Prabhupāda: If we can get, we shall take it. Gargamuni: Yes. Prabhupāda: And you can start a center there. That will be very good. And when they see that Americans are taking, the Muhammadans will be attracted. Gargamuni: Yes. No, I found them... They weren't so fanatic. The Bengali Mussulmans are not like the others. They're very nice. Prabhupāda: Educated. Gargamuni: Well, I spoke with students. Prabhupāda: Oh. They're educated. *Gargamuni: Yes. And most of the business and industry is in the hands of the Mussulmans. But they... We walked around like this, and there was no trouble*-at that time. Prabhupāda: They have got a Bengali language. Gargamuni: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: Oh, yes. They speak Bengali. *Prabhupāda: No, they kept Bengali language*-state language. Gargamuni: Yes. Prabhupāda: So naturally... Gargamuni: I was thinking also that Śatadhanya Mahārāja, he has learned Bengali. So I was thinking that he may also go with me because he knows Bengali. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: He speaks it, and he is not so much engaged. Prabhupāda: Take some Gītārgān. Gargamuni: Yes, I'm going to take. I was thinking if my vans get kicked out of the country because of the customs, that we would go to Bangladesh and take trunkloads of Gītārgāns and go to Dacca and Chittagong and some of the big cities. Prabhupāda: Bangladesh. It will be great service. Gargamuni: Yes. Hari-śauri: There's a few people asking for darśana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: There's one boy we've been preaching to. He's a student in sociology. Prabhupāda: Let him come. No "logy" before Kṛṣṇa conscious. All "logy" finished. Rāmeśvara: Hari-śauri, I turned this off. You going to stay here, Hari-śauri? So I should take it out? Leave it? Hari-śauri: Yeah. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) You belong to Orissa. Guest (1): Bhuvaneśvara. Prabhupāda: Bhuvaneśvara. Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is your philosophy? Guest (1): Sir, we are coming just to have a darśana from you. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Hari-śauri: This young man here is a student. He's studying for his MA in sociology. He has a few questions. Prabhupāda: Yes? Hari-śauri: If you have some question, you can ask. Prabhupāda: You are a student. Guest (1): Sir, from the very beginning, I am attached to the society, and through these... Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is social animal. "Society, friendship, and love." They say "divinely bestowed upon man." So because we are strongly in misunderstanding our identification, we take this society as divinely. But we have got the society that is not on the bodily conception. Otherwise, these European, Americans, Africans, Canadians, they would not have come together. This is a different platform. It is a society, but on the spiritual platform. Guest (1): Sir, may I know the meaning of the divine name Hare Kṛṣṇa and Hare Rāma? The real meaning of the divine name Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma? Prabhupāda: Meaning is very simple. The Hare, it is addressing, sambodhana. Just like we ask somebody, "Hello, Mr. such and such." It is like that, Hara. Hara is the energy of the Supreme Lord. Supreme Lord is Hari, and Hara is the energy, potency. So we are addressing hara-"Hare." And "Kṛṣṇa," that is also addressing, hara, Kṛṣṇa. So we are praying: "O the energy of the Lord, O Your Lordship, kindly engage us in Your service." This is... Guest (1): So that is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is note of address: "O Kṛṣṇa and O Kṛṣṇa's energy, please engage me in Your service." Because we are in service, every one of us. What you are doing? Guest (1): Sir, I am a government servant. Prabhupāda: So you are servant. And any one of you... Guest (2): I am also a servant. Prabhupāda: So everyone in servant. Guest (1): No, sir, servant is always serving in the government... Prabhupāda: So they are servant. So every one of us is a servant. But this service has not pleased us. Therefore we are seeking other service, the service of the Supreme. Guest (1): Sir, what is the way to serve the Supreme? Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Just like a servant, when he is not pleased, somehow or other, with the master, he seeks another service. Is it not? Similarly, the service in this material world will never please us, neither the master. Take for example Gandhi. He gave so much service to his country, to his countrymen, but what was the result? He was shot dead. So who can please more than Gandhi? So we should take lesson from this, that if you are engaged in rendering service to the material world, neither you'll be happy nor the master will be happy. It is simply waste of time. Guest (3): Waste of time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): No, those who are fighting for the country... Prabhupāda: Eh! Any way, any way, material service is simply waste of time. Guest (1): Sir, actually what is spiritual service? *Prabhupāda: Spiritual service*-to render service to Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Then you'll be happy. Guest (3): No, but those who are freedom fighters, they are actually on the wrong path? Prabhupāda: No, no. Everyone who is not serving Kṛṣṇa, he is in the wrong path. Guest (3): But Kṛṣṇa means... Who is He? Is He a personal or impersonal? Prabhupāda: Person. Service means person. Guest (3): Person? Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you are person, I am person, how I can serve you or how you can accept service? Guest (3): Means what is God and Kṛṣṇa? Is there any difference? Prabhupāda: God is person. That I am saying. Guest (3): God is person? Prabhupāda: Yes, like you, as you are talking with me, I am talking with you. Guest (1): Sir, He is not infinite. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That you have to understand, that although He is person, He is infinite. That you have to understand. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. *Guest (2): Sir, in Bhagavad*-gītā... *Prabhupāda: He! One man. If you argue in that way, many people, then there will be no answer. You should know the etiquette. How can I answer so many person at a time? So this infinite is explained, infiniteness. Kṛṣṇa says, māyā tatam idaṁ sarvam: "I am infinitely everywhere." māyā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta*-mūrtina [Bg. 9.4]. Just like here in this room, do you think there is no government in this room? Do you think there is no government within this room? Guest (1): Yes, I think there is some government. Prabhupāda: There is. But that... It is not... There is no representative of government, but still, we are under the government. This is avyakta. The government is there, but it doesn't mean that the prime minister or the president is there. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, but He says, māyā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagat... (end) *Morning Walk Excerpt-*-January 20, 1977, Bhuvaneçvara Prabhupāda: They're devotees of Lord Śiva. *Gaura*-govinda(?): Ananta Vasudeva temple Prabhupāda: Which one? This one? *Gaura*-govinda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Durbhikṣa. Anāvṛstya durbhikṣā kara*-pīḍitaḥ [SB 12.2.9]. There will be no rainfall, scarcity of food, and government will tax. Government will contribute twenty-five crores, and they will tax three hundred crores on this beach.(?) And before giving twenty-five crores, the other three hundred crores they will divide amongst themselves. (chuckles) That's all. [break] Rāmeśvara: ...two demons, she was feeling thirst. So Lord Śiva with the end of his trident created this hole. And then he sent his bull carrier to gather waters from all the sacred rivers in the universe. An then Lord Brahmā came... *Prabhupāda: Bindu*-sarovara. Drop by drop. Bindu means drop. So the sarovara came into existence by contribution from all rivers. [break] Bhuvaneśvara will help me. I have got little hint. Gargamuni: Maybe we should build a permanent house for Your Divine Grace also. Prabhupāda: We shall build there, in our place. Gargamuni: Yes, there. I mean a separate bungalow there. *Prabhupāda: No, if we build like Māyāpura, a portion is sufficient. It is well*-known sanitarium. (end) *Conversation A-*-January 6, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-January 6, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation C-*-January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation D-*-January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation E-*-January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation F-*-January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 22, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 22, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation C-*-January 22, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation C-*-January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 24, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 24, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 25, 1977, Jagannatha Puri *Conversation B-*-January 25, 1977, Jagannatha Puri *Conversation A-*-January 26, 1977, Jagannatha Puri *Conversation Address-*-January 26, 1977, Jagannatha Puri *Conversation B-*-January 26, 1977, Jagannatha Puri *Conversation A-*-January 27, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 27, 1977, Jagannatha Puri *Conversation B-*-January 27, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 27, 1977, Jagannatha Puri *Conversation A-*-January 28, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 28, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 29, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 29, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 30, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 30, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 31, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 31, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation C-*-January 31, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-February 2, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-February 2, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-February 3, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation on Train-*-February 3, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-February 4, 1977, Calcutta *Conversation B-*-February 4, 1977, Calcutta *Conversation-*-February 5, 1977, Calcutta *Conversation-*-February 11, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-February 12, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 14, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 14, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation C-*-February 14, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-February 15, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 16, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 16, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-February 17, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 18, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 18, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation C-*-February 18, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation D-*-February 18, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 19, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 19, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation C-*-February 19, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation D-*-February 19, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation E-*-February 19, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-February 21, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 24, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 24, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 25, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 25, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation C-*-February 25, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-February 26, 1977, Mayapur *Interview-*-February 26, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 27, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 27, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 28, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 28, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation C-*-February 28, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-March 1, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-March 1, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-March 2, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-March 4, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-March 20, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-March 22, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-March 24, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-March 26, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-March 26, 1977, Bombay *Conversation C-*-March 26, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-March 27, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-March 27, 1977, Bombay *Conversation D-*-March 27, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-March 29, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-March 30, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-March 31, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-March 31, 1977, Bombay *Conversation C-*-March 31, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 2, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 5, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 5, 1977, Bombay *Conversation C-*-April 5, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 10, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 10, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 11, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 13, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 15, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 16, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 17, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 17, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 18, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 18, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 19, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 19, 1977, Bombay *Conversation C-*-April 19, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 20, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 22, 1977, Bombay *Conversation C-*-April 22, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 23, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 23, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 24, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 25, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 25, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 28, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 28, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 29, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 30, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-May 2, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-May 2, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-May 8, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation B-*-May 8, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation C-*-May 8, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation-*-May 9, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation-*-May 11, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation-*-May 12, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation-*-May 13, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation-*-May 14, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation-*-May 15, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation-*-May 17, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-May 19, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-May 20, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-May 21, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-May 22, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-May 24, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-May 24, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-May 24, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation D-*-May 24, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-May 25, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-May 25, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-May 27, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-May 27, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-May 27, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-May 28, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-May 28, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-May 28, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-May 29, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-May 29, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-May 31, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 1, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 2, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 17, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 18, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-June 19, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-June 19, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-June 20, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-June 20, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 21, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 22, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 23, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 24, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-June 26, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-June 26, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 27, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-June 28, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-June 28, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-June 28, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation D-*-June 28, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-June 30, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-June 30, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-June 30, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 1, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 1, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-July 1, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation D-*-July 1, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation E-*-July 1, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation F-*-July 1, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 2, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 2, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-July 3, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 5, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 5, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-July 6, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 7, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 7, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-July 7, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 8, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 8, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-July 10, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 14, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 14, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-July 15, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 17, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 17, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 19, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 19, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-July 26, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-July 27, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-July 31, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-August 8, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-August 10, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-August 11, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-August 17, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-August 29, 1977, London *Conversation-*-October 2, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-October 3, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-October 4, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 6, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 6, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 8, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 8, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-October 9, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 10, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 10, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 11, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 11, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-October 12, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 13, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 13, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-October 13, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 14, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 14, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-October 14, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 15, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 15, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-October 15, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 16, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 16, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-October 16, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 17, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 17, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 18, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 18, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-October 18, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-October 19, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 20, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 20, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 21, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 21, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 22, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 22, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-October 24, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 25, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 25, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-October 26, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 27, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 27, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-November 9, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-November 9, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-November 9, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation D-*-November 9, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-November 12, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-November 12, 1977, Vrndavana *Room Conversation-*-October 28, 1977, Våndävana Prabhupāda: What you are doing? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: With the press from the Indian Express and other newspapers. And also I went to the television and the All*-India Radio for the engagement. And also I wanted to discuss with some of my members the immediate plan that we have. So I sent one to Bombay to organize a conference. So I'll try to cover this area very quickly, Agra, Delhi, and Punjab. I'm meeting a lot of scientists. And also I collected several copies of the newspaper, The Statesman. I went to the Statesman building, collected the newspaper coverings. How are you feeling, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That kavirāja did not come? Upendra: What happened? No one knows. They left. They say he left Calcutta at twelve o'clock flight. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I could have gone to the airport. Maybe they are coming tomorrow on the train, Taj Express? Upendra: No, by air they came. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, from Delhi. I thought that maybe he didn't know that, Adri...? If it starts from Calcutta at twelve o'clock, it should be arriving at Delhi about two o'clock. Upendra: Then let's say one hour, then three to here. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's a train at five o'clock that I came by, train, five o'clock. It's a very good train. Maybe they didn't know that train. It starts from Nizammudin Station. So if they're planning to come by train tomorrow, the Taj Express is at seven o'clock in the morning, arriving Mathurā at nine o'clock. Upendra: Someone could call Delhi. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I don't know whether they're in the temple or not. I think some of our men came from Delhi temple about four o'clock, arrived in the temple. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we discussed a number of points. One thing is that I talked to him about Panchashil flat. So I explained to him that he should feel the responsibility for paying for the living there, as we have given him this nice place. So he's agreed to do that. And I told him that whatever he pays, the receipts should be in your name, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. Apparently the receipts have been issued in the name of M. M. De. So I told him don't do that, because if they get the receipts in their name then they become the tenant. I don't want that. They're living there as our guest, not as tenants. So he agreed to that. As soon as I mentioned it, he understood what I was talking about. M. M. is a little clever. So then I told him, however, that the permanent electricity was never hooked up. Permanent electricity line was never installed. So since that was an initial giving of the flat, I told him that if he paid for half of that, we would pay the other half. I said but first of all he has to pay and send me the receipt showing that he's paid. It's about 650 rupees. Prabhupāda: Six hundred and fifty? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Half. It's thirteen hundred total. This is for permanent connection of electricity. The flat never has had a permanent connection. The whole building is not permanent. It's a temporary line. So all the... Prabhupāda: Yearly? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. Once and for all. It's a permanent installation of a permanent line. The yearly electricity bill he'll pay. That's his business. Then he seems to want to repay this amount that we're giving from the postal receipts. So I have no objection. If he repays, then we'll simply follow the original scheme and divide it up accordingly. Or he can divide it up. I don't know why he wants to pay it back. I don't know. I've explained to him that it's a donation. But anyway, it's better he pays it back, and then we can give it to each of the persons involved. I don't think there's any need of taking any loan agreement or anything, is there? Is there any need? Prabhupāda: I don't think so. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean verbal agreement is enough, isn't it, in dealing with him? I would think so. I mean I thought it was sufficient if he agrees verbally. No contract or loan agreement. He wants to pay this money back by April. I didn't tell him he had to. I told him it was a donation. He seems to want to pay it back. So let him if he wants to. Then he wanted me to arrange, so I'm sending... I gave the receipts to him as you saw. I'm sending the letter... I'm sending a man to Delhi tomorrow to get a ticket for him, airline ticket. Prabhupāda: Where he is? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's gone to take his meals now. Then he's going to take rest, he said. Prabhupāda: And he has got the papers? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He gave them back to me to keep in the almirah locked up. He said until he goes he wants me to keep them carefully. I said all right. And I'm getting him a ticket as well as sending the letters by special mail service to Bombay for Girirāja's signature, so that at least from our side there will not be any reason to delay. And when I showed him the letter that I had written to the bank, he was very satisfied. He could understand that there should be no difficulty now. He was quite confident after reading the letter. The letter is very clearly written, and with the power of attorney it's a complete document. I think everything was done all right. He seemed to be satisfied. Prabhupāda: So what about kavirāja? He might think it is a whimsical. And that was my last desire. You could not. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That kavirāja, I wanted. Somehow or other, it has not happened. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't feel that it's conclusively not happened. Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply, one after another, frustration.(?) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. First we had that Madhva..., not Madhva. Rāmānujī came from Śrī Raṅgajī temple, and he seemed to be a cheater. Then this one... We got this medicine from that śakta*-kavirāja, and that medicine turned out to be poison. And now this kavirāja who's supposed to be coming from Calcutta, it's become a mystery where he is. The temple was called, and they said that they've left. They called twice to Calcutta, and they said they've left, and yet he's not here. I don't know what to make of it. Very puzzling situation. I think that if by tomorrow noon they have not arrived, then Śatadhanya can go to Calcutta to bring them. If they're going to arrive, they'd arrive by tomorrow noon. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, at the latest. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At the latest absolutely. I mean, to me, for them to arrive by tomorrow noon is not... From the very beginning I would not have felt it was out of the ordinary. Prabhupāda: They said they have left! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Still, whatever the reason is. Prabhupāda: You are not talking... Everything is being done by the same Śatadhanya. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By the same what? Prabhupāda: Śatadhanya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughter) Yeah, that's maybe what the problem is. Prabhupāda: And people are bluffing him, and he says... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's bluffing us. (laughs) He seems very sincere, though. It's hard not to believe him. Prabhupāda: That was my impression. But how is that? If you take leave, something.(?) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is a big mystery, this makara*-dhvaja. It is like the immortal elixir, very hard to grasp. I think you described the flowers in the sky? There's that Bengali... *Bhakti*-caru: Ākāśa-puṣpa? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Well, one thing we could say in favor of the kavirāja delay in coming is that if he had come, then he might have given some medicine right away. But this way, your body has been given a chance to rest from that other thing that you had taken. By not taking medicine for two days now, it's good. It's made... The body will become a little more regular. If he had come, naturally he would have wanted to immediately prescribe some medicine. This is not bad, to give the body a rest after such strong medicine. How much did Prabhupāda drink today? The stool*-passing has stopped? *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Better that you don't drink any more tonight, Śrīla Prabhupāda, except a little bit of miśri*-jala or some little bit. Then by tomorrow you should be more normal again. Anyway, our activities are going on-parikrama, kīrtana, Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Can I go to Calcutta? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I still feel a little confident that we could take you there, but... I mean just like we carry you in the palanquin and you don't have any difficulty, so airplane is like a big palanquin. I mean, you know, there's so many of us, eight or ten of us. I can't see that there could be any difficulty. Of course, I still think the kavirāja is going to come. I have faith in Śatadhanya Mahārāja. I think this is simply Kṛṣṇa's test for him. I think the kavirāja will come. The nicest thing will be if the kavirāja treats you for some days, and you get some benefit, and then he takes you... Prabhupāda: (?) Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We go back with him to Calcutta and Māyāpura. That would be very nice. Of course, he has to first of all come here. I've seen things like this happen before in India, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I mean India is the kind of place where... It's difficult. You could drop out of communication for a day. It's very possible that that can happen. It's just a very strange kind of place to communicate and to travel in. *Bhakti*-caru: Another thing is I think this noon flight is not a direct flight. It's a Kanadu(?) that hops, say, from Calcutta, Benares, Allahabad, Lucknow, Delhi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. So how many hours could that be? *Bhakti*-caru: Five, six hours. Takes a long time. And it's not as fast as Boeing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means it would arrive at 6:30 or 7:00. I think that by tomorrow noon, if they didn't come, then we would have to say that the matter has become hopeless for them coming. And really it's a fact, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you've been resting today without taking any medicine is not a bad thing. *Bhakti*-caru: And the passing stool has stopped. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that stopped. That's the main thing. That was the disturbance. The stool was passing. So many people are coming to the temple here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Many pilgrims. The temple is full of people all the time. Lots of pilgrims coming. Devotees were saying that in other temples there's not so much activity. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma are attracting all of the people of the land. Everyone is attracted to Them. But it seems like Rādhā-Śyāmasundara are equally popular. People like Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa very much, and especially in Vṛndāvana. But Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma is unique. I hear them exclaiming. They are at once surprised and pleased to see the two brothers together. *Bhakti*-caru: And the śṛṅgāra is so unique here. It's the best. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, everyone says the śṛṅgāra is the best. But for flowers we have not yet the best. So we have to make that. Bhavānanda Mahārāja was suggesting a program, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He was suggesting that in that open land on the side of the Gurukula, that we could build a prasādam pavilion, and we could serve the public every day free prasādam at noon time. That might become very popular in Vṛndāvana. Ḍāl and cāpāṭis. All the sādhus would come. I don't know if it's a good idea, but he was suggesting. Prabhupāda: Good idea. Very good idea. Nayanābhirāma: We used to serve them khicuṛi in the morning. Then they discontinued. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean so many pilgrims come, and there are already so many sādhus living in Vṛndāvana. This would make our temple very, very popular additionally, even more popular than now. So many pilgrims come. I see them. And they're farmers and things, you know. And if we gave that, probably they would be inclined, even some of the farmers would bring a little of their..., you know, thinking to offer something also to the Deities, because they would see that we're giving things. Prabhupāda: If you distribute prasādam, there will be no scarcity of participants. Bhāta ei kāke āra.(?) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What does that mean, Śrīla Prabhupāda? What does that? *Bhakti*-caru: "If you scatter rice, then there's no dearth of crows." (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "No dearth of crows." Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll come by the bunches. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like there's a Bengali proverb for practically everything, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Ektu bhauma bhauma deśa tabu raṅge bara.(?) Explain this. *Bhakti*-caru: That "Bengal has been divided into so many different parts, but still it's full of rasas and humor." *Prabhupāda: Bengali people are easy*-going. So therefore they can manufacture all these humors. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Would your Guru Mahārāja tell a lot of Bengali proverbs, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. I learned from him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You once said that he liked you very much, 'cause you were also a Calcutta boy, Calcutta born. [break] Prabhupāda: Sohar(?) has money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually I started to have a talk with him about the... Prabhupāda: You write. You are intelligent. I cannot do anything. I only want... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that point. Prabhupāda: (crying) I am very poor man, and somehow or other, I built up. And still in my... Kavirāja (1): (Hindi or Bengali) Prabhupāda: Aiye. Aiye. (Hindi) Guest (2): What is the actual problems? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The problems are that... The biggest problem... Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is the urine report? Where is Bhakti*-caru? *Bhakti*-caru: Since when is that dropsy? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The dropsy is more than one year. Prabhupāda: No, one year... Less. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I mean, I asked Hari-śauri. He said that that swelling has been there for a long time, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I've seen it for... (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: Last three, four days, any blood in the urine? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Kavirāja (1): Prasādam quantity... (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Give him the book. He'll see the quantity. Kavirāja (1): (Hindi) Bhavānanda: Tell him when the urine was bloody... *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) That was about ten days back. Bhavānanda: And tell him that Prabhupāda took allopathic medicine last week. He asked for information. *Bhakti*-caru: Let him see it first. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Who has come with him? *Śatadhanya: This is Adri*-dhāraṇa dāsa, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I told you about him, that he's collecting very big in Calcutta, making many members. So he has come with the kavirāja personally. Prabhupāda: He belongs to which province? *Adri*-dhāraṇa: I was born in Bombay, but my parents are from Sindh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he's born in Bombay. *Bhakti*-caru: And he joined in Florida, yes? (Hindi-kavirāja) About six months back we had a report. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Urine specimen report? *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. This is the... He's asking about that time, four or five months ago. *Bhakti*-caru: This one is from... Yes, this is very recent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's better. Kavirāja (1): (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: Pressure is good. When Dr. Ghosh came, that other Dr. Ghosh came... (Hindi) ...pressure, 180 and 80. (Hindi) He's saying that in this condition, Prabhupāda can't take makara-dhvaja. That any medicine that contains mercury and arsenic is poison to him. Bhavānanda: That's what Prabhupāda said. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is a fact. He found that to be true. Kavirāja (1): (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi*-long conversation with kavirāja) *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) (end) Prabhupāda: Where is Tamāla? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? What is...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I mean, er, we already said some juices, vegetable juice. You said you have no objection to broth, vegetable broth. So he's proposing some vegetable broth. That's nice. We can try. And... You see, you have to understand, one thing is that Prabhupāda willingly takes fruit juices. You've never experienced a patient like Prabhupāda, who will not take what you prescribe. Everybody that you've worked with, they take whatever you tell them to take. But Śrīla Prabhupāda is not that kind of patient. You tell him to take... You'll make a broth for six hours, and he'll take one spoon and then reject it. And then that's finished. So the point is that if he willingly takes some type of a fruit juice, for example, and we've seen for example how he willingly will take grape juice in big quantities. He may not take the thing which you prescribe in big quantities. Better that he takes some liquid than nothing at all. Mādhava: This is very true. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the proposal that he continues to take some fruit juice has certain merit, because at least we've seen that that's one thing that he will take in large quantity. If nothing else... Every single kavirāja and doctor we've consulted, they all insist that one of the most important things is that there be sufficient liquid taken so that the body can be cleansed properly. So although you may be right that by taking one thing in particular and not taking fruit juice may be preferable, if he can't take it, then there's no use in that point. Mādhava: That's true. If Śrīla Prabhupāda would take nothing but fruit juice, it is much better that he have the fruit juice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So therefore Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu's suggestion was not unbased, because we see that in the past Prabhupāda has rejected... I've seen him reject vegetable broths. I saw him reject it at least three or four times. I've never seen him reject fruit juice. So how much vegetable broth will Prabhupāda take? He won't take 500, 600, 800 cc's. He may, but I've never seen such a thing. Bhavānanda: He'll take one glass. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you have to consider that, although he should take sufficient liquid. So you have to augment... [break] ...Śatadhanya, when we called Calcutta, and then I could not fall asleep properly because I was very... My mind was active last night. For three hours I was not sleeping. Prabhupāda: On the back side. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Little scratching, should I do? [break] Prabhupāda: ...krama on the palanquin, practically it is very pleasant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You look very much like you're enjoying when we take you around. It's very nice to see that you're happy then. [break] Śrīla Prabhupāda, when someone is ill as Your Divine Grace is, it's always a case of lamentation, but somehow or other, because of your most wonderful Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is simply nectarean to be with you. [break] ...Indian Overseas Bank. So Prabhupāda's idea is that all of you should get sufficiently everything that you require, that you should never feel any difficulty. But he is very concerned that the money should not be squandered. [break] ...going to deal with the letter. He simply instead told you to come. Vrindavan De: I have sent money twice. Once in Vṛndāvana and Bombay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we got the 870 rupees. That we received here. Vrindavan De: But took from Prabhupāda personally. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But so far, the payment to the BBT has not come. Vrindavan De: No, BBT is being arranged. I shall send check. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think your outstanding bill is about 25,000 rupees. Vrindavan De: Yes, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that has not been paid. Prabhupāda: So, why you have not paid? Vrindavan De: That is also on a check basis. On its encashment I shall send a draft to BBT. I got some outstanding checks. So it takes time, at least a month or more than a month. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're going to give his business... Vrindavan De: But I wrote to Prabhupāda some loan that is to be repaid in April positively. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Regarding this loan, you were to make twelve percent out of it. Right? You were going to make twelve thousand rupees' profit. Vrindavan De: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On the investment. Vrindavan De: One lakh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you're not making one lakh profit. Vrindavan De: No. Profit is twelve thousand, yes, twelve to fifteen thousand. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But now by these postal receipts, you're making 27,000, apart from your brother's amount. Yours, your mother's and your sister's will give you 27,000. Vrindavan De: No. I want that loan for the time being. I shall pay it back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But that loan... You have to understand something. The Society cannot loan... Prabhupāda: All the money he can take, loan. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On the basis of that money. Vrindavan De: It is for a month or three or four months. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no, that's not what Prabhupāda's saying. On the basis of those postal receipts. Is that what you're saying, Śrīla Prabhupāda? You can put up those postal receipts, that money, to the bank, and they can issue you loan against that money. Vrindavan De: I don't think so. I don't know, actually, because I don't have any idea about it. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because, Śrīla Prabhupāda, our Society cannot loan money for a business like this. This is not our Society's business at all. You're not... Of the one lakh of rupees' worth of books, only six thousand rupees is from ISKCON's books. So how can we loan one lakh of rupees? We can't start loaning money for these kind of businesses. It's against the Society's memorandum and rules that money can be given to individuals for their personal businesses. This is a charitable society. It's bounded by the Society's charity laws. So, Prabhupāda, whatever money he has, he has got as a binamida of the Society. He may donate the money in the sense of giving a stipend to family members. That's different. But as far as giving loans for business purposes to an individual private business... I mean we would lose our charitable status, because the accounts are audited every year. So it will look very... In fact, if we do that, then they may raise objection to the stipend also. Now they can't raise objection, because it's given as a stipend to the family, former family of this ācārya. They won't say anything. But if we start taking Society money and loaning it to a private business, which is the way they'll see it, then they'll raise objection. Furthermore, then we'll have to charge interest, and if we charge interest, that gets us into a lot of trouble also. As a Society, we're not supposed to be doing business, profit*-making business. Prabhupāda: So when the certificates matures, what is the amount? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The amount, I believe, is about 43,200 rupees. Prabhupāda: So this much can be given to him. You can... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That amount can be given to him, and he may pay back the loan. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he's getting the postal receipts, so let him keep those. Prabhupāda: Yes. When it is matured... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's going to be matured in ten days, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I don't think it's advisable that we should pass entries in our accounts simply for ten days' time. By the time he goes back... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He may take indirectly for the purpose with the help of Sandar.(?) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he can take that money. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That I also say. Prabhupāda: So that is 47,000? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 43,200 rupees. Prabhupāda: So seven thousand you can give, contribution. In that way... Vrindavan De: Whatever the amount I may take, I can pay back by 10th or 15th April, positively. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He'll get 43,200 by the 7th of November. Vrindavan De: Because we have got an order from the National Library of Calcutta worth one lakh. So... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So supply him half the order to begin with. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why not do that? Vrindavan De: It is on our confirmation, because the money is the main criterion. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You'll have the money by the 7th of the month. Vrindavan De: I don't have any such big amount. But if you... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. The postal receipts. But some of the money is to Sulaksmana De, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Some of this money... Prabhupāda: No, all the money he can take. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But that's not what we wrote in the letter, though, because the letter nominated different persons. Then we're going to have to do a completely different thing. Because the nomination was already designated to five different persons. Prabhupāda: I think he can have the... I do not know. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I also do not know the procedure. [break] Vrindavan De: The 7th November is the last date to confirm them, and I shall be going back by 3rd or 4th of... Of course, tickets available. I shall send my man to Delhi, and he'll arrange everything about books supplying and so on. Prabhupāda: How much you have got? Brahmānanda: How much you have got? Vrindavan De: That money? Or that...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Generally how much cash do you have? Vrindavan De: Cash? At present? Only ten thousand, eight thousand or nine thousand, something like that. Prabhupāda: So arrange to give him that 47,000. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's 43,200. But I mean... Vrindavan De: No, you'll get the money back by 10th or 15th April. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's not the point. The problem is that how we can get... I don't know if this... I mean I'll do it, but I'm thinking that we're jeopardizing our position as a... I mean this money is not a privately owned money. Prabhupāda: No, no, the Society cannot. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How can the Society give money to a private business? It's not done. Vrindavan De: No, it is just a temporary... (Bengali) Prabhupāda: What is in my private account? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, according to your affidavit, there is no private accounts. Once we take it as a private account again, then the whole position of the affidavit has no meaning. I mean, I really think that Vrindavan has to... I just think he has to arrange these businesses on his own. I don't think that he can... He can use the money that's given as a stipend. He can use this postal money receipts. But if he has to take money from the Society for private business, it's not at all going to be acceptable to the Charity Commission. It makes us look very suspicious that we're giving money to individuals. Prabhupāda: So this 43,000 can be given, because it is not Society's money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. It's not come in our accounts, so it can be given definitely. Prabhupāda: So this much you can do. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I fully agree. And I have no objection to giving one lakh. But I'm speaking from a legal point of view. It will injure us, and I don't want to be injured. Vrindavan De: No, I can spare some little amount of interest. I can pay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's more jeopardizing. We can't charge interest. We cannot make profit on money loaned out, as a society. It goes against the laws of India. That's the whole point. Even if we gave it in any way, it's jeopardizing. Vrindavan De: But you can put it easily on donation account, that charge interest. Prabhupāda: No, Overseas Bank they can give. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Overseas Bank, they can give? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On what basis? Prabhupāda: Against their money. [break] You are depositing some money with the... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've already deposited money with them. Prabhupāda: So against that, they can give. Bank can give. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think I'll write a letter to Girirāja. It will take some time. Vrindavan will have to go to Bombay for this if he wants to negotiate this loan. The loan has to be between the bank and him, not between our Society and the bank. That's my point. It's his private business. It has to be kept on a basis like that. Otherwise it's... If the bank... Girirāja may help them. Now we've given the bank instruction that five persons... See, one thing is that all... [break] This... If you think this arrangement suitable, then give them... Vrindavan De: It is, moreover, a prestigious issue to us. And we have already committed them that we are able to supply, although we don't have any sufficient money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I think, based upon this scheme... Vrindavan De: And that's why I sent my man twice to... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know, but Prabhupāda was not... We never saw your man. He missed us. He missed both times. Vrindavan De: When he came here, Prabhupāda had already left for London. And when my man went to Bombay, already left for Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: But in business field, if the bank sees that you have got fifty percent, they will advance. If you have got fifty percent, any transaction, you wait to do some business... Vrindavan De: One thing, Tamāla, you know, I would like to have Prabhupāda's car for the time being. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But Prabhupāda said you had to pay five thousand rupees to BBT. That you haven't done. Vrindavan De: After paying of this amount the car may be arranged. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But first of all you have to pay the money. Vrindavan De: All right, I will... (Bengali ) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We already told you if you paid that money, Prabhupāda said then you can have the use of the car. But they have not received that money from you. I mean, actually, the fact of the matter is that you have got a 25,000 rupees bill outstanding which you have not hardly paid anything for in over a year. Now, from the point of view of business, this is not very good business. Vrindavan De: I received a letter from Prabhupāda a couple of month ago that the amount which is due from us to BBT, that amount should be adjusted through order, which Gargamuni... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Actually if you read the letter carefully you'll see that Prabhupāda pointed out that the amount that you would get on credit from Gargamuni was equal to the amount of your bill. He didn't say that it would be adjusted. I have a copy of the letter. It doesn't say that it will be adjusted against that. Vrindavan De: No. Prabhupāda advised Gargamuni to pay interest in our favor to the BBT account to clear out our plea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So far. I... I know it's being paid to your account. Vrindavan De: That is why I have not sent any money to BBT. Anyway, I'm arranging to pay BBT immediately. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some money should be paid. I mean 25,000 rupees' books were taken and no money was received. Very little money was received. I mean, I think to establish credibility some money should be paid. It's only right. The BBT has supplied books. Some money should come back. Otherwise there's a feeling that it's a very one*-way business-simply books go out and no money is ever coming in. I think that from your side there should be some... Prabhupāda's only point with the car was to get you to give some money towards the BBT. That was the whole point. Otherwise he could give you the use of the car right away, but he wanted to encourage you that some money should be given to the BBT. The car is there in Māyāpura. Vrindavan De: I shall send three thousand rupees, as I have committed. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When you send five thousand, then take the car. Vrindavan De: At present I have arranged to pay BBT three thousand. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's good. Vrindavan De: But I must get the confirmation. Otherwise he is not ready to deliver the car. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I told the BBT that they should write you as soon as they receive five thousand rupees. Vrindavan De: I must have some letters. On the strength of the letters I can... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What letters? Vrindavan De: That "Please allow the car to Prabhupāda's son." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The letter is already there. I've sent him a letter with... I sent the letter, so he knows that. The letter is there. But they have to receive five thousand rupees from you, and then they'll release the car. Vrindavan De: Because if the confirmation of the amount received by mail reaches very late, the... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you have not sent the money, Vrindavan. So why you're worried about the letter reaching late? First of all send the money, then worry about it. There's no worry. Once you send the money, the letter will come. I don't think that you can doubt that the letter will come. The main point is that the money has to come first. You have no reason to suppose that the letter will be delayed. It will come. They already know it. As soon as they receive five thousand rupees, the BBT, Bombay, will immediately inform Māyāpura, "Five thousand rupees been received. The car may be given." They know that. It's set up. It's a set*-up. And you have to live up to your side to pay the five thousand rupees. It's not very much. It's not that much. Prabhupāda: Now, with the help of Tamāla Kṛṣṇa and who else? Chandra. You can... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Take this order, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. And if the bank sees that you have got fifty percent, they will advance. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Especially with the presentation of the bill. Against the bill... Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...they'll put it out. The bill should be approved by the company that's ordering the books. The government should certify the bill that "We've accepted this bill." Oh, the bank will immediately issue money. They're going to make interest. Prabhupāda: So with cooperation of Tamāla and who else? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Chandra. Prabhupāda: Chandra. And with your intelligence you can manage. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You have to apply your intelligence to this. It's no doubt you're going to have to work hard to get this money. But otherwise where is any business successful unless there's endeavor? The money is there. It's a fact you'll have to work for it. That's a fact. I can see that. It's not completely simple, but it's there. Good business, it can be gotten. Prabhupāda: So you can return immediately with the certificate? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think you should do that. Should not lose time now. Prabhupāda: And Chandra there and... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (to Vrindavan:) Whatever you need from here, I will help you. As far as I can do, any letters or anything I can give you, I am prepared to do. And I can give you the counterfoils, and I'll also give him the safe custody receipt. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That will be further help. I mean, with presentation of these, this shows that you have position to demand this money. Prabhupāda: When the bank collects, the post office will not have any objection. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. If the bank takes money, the post office will pay as the bank orders. Vrindavan De: But is it possible to...? In case those counterfoils... It is only mentioned in the one line. Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. Vrindavan De: Bank will not accept it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda said it doesn't matter. Vrindavan De: Doesn't matter? Prabhupāda: Post office should be satisfied. They have paid to the bank, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And how will the bank pay to him alone? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How will the bank pay to Vrindavan*-candra alone and not the others? Vrindavan De: Hm, this is the question. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I will write a letter? *Vrindavan De: I write Vrindavan*-candra or Vrinda Book Company or whatever it may be, I don't think that Bank will make it encashed to Vrindavan Company. It will be troublesome thing. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it won't be troublesome. The best thing... We can't, though. The best thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda*-I will give a letter informing the bank to make payment to Vrindavan-candra alone. Beyond that, I will also immediately write another of the same letter with my signature and get Girirāja's signature, and I will, at the same time, give Vrindavan-candra a copy of the power of attorney, so that first of all you'll have my letter... Just like this: if Prabhupāda were to sign a letter to the bank to pay all the money to you, will they pay it to you? Definitely. Right? So he's given power of attorney jointly to myself and Girirāja in Bombay. Since I... I will sign one letter just myself, and you try and work on that letter. And I'll give you a copy of the power of attorney. At the same time I'll send the exact same letter, but with a place for Girirāja also to sign. Means it will reach Calcutta another four or five days after you reach. Vrindavan De: For the accounts being offered by Prabhupāda? So bank will accept the signature, only those who operates the account. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Exactly. But Prabhupāda has given power of attorney to operate all accounts to myself and Girirāja jointly. That's what I'm saying. I'll give you a copy of the power of attorney, notarized copy, and I'll give you a letter, stating to the bank that all of the money should be paid to your Vrinda Book Company. You follow? Vrindavan De: Not to me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. To Vrinda Book Company. And I'll get that letter signed by Girirāja also. The fact is, you don't need that letter before the 7th of November, because that's when the payment has to be made. You follow? There's plenty of time. There's ten days' time. For me to give a letter... The letter will be taken to Delhi. It will reach Bombay on Monday. Definitely. I'll send it by QMS. They'll send it to Calcutta by QMS. It will reach by Tuesday. It will reach by the 1st, 2nd or 3rd of the month. Vrindavan De: Tuesday evening possibly. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By the 2nd or 3rd of the month it will reach. Plenty of time for you to act on it. Vrindavan De: I should be back by 3rd or 4th. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You should be back as soon as possible to start working on this. If I were you, I would not lose time. I would act quickly on it. And from our side, I'm sure this will work. I guarantee it will work. Vrindavan De: If it works, then we have no... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It must work, because they have to honor the power of attorney. I'll give you the copy of the power of attorney. It's completely bona fide. Vrindavan De: You arrange everything, write down all these and signing, put your signature on the letters? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I'll do that. Vrindavan De: But I may not come back in a very short time, if I have to come within a month. For this work I may not find out any time to come over here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you won't have to come back for this business. This business will be done properly. Vrindavan De: But I must see my father, after all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That you may come every day. But from this business, this will work. We'll give a letter to the bank... Vrindavan De: For the little later the work should not be hampered. I want that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it won't be hampered. Prabhupāda: You give me. He'll go.(?) Vrindavan De: Because I came, spending so many money... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it won't be hampered. I promise. *Vrindavan De: I came by air*-conditioned chair car. Took a hundred rupees. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I'll pay you back that. You don't have to be... That money we'll always pay you. Whenever you want to visit. Vrindavan De: Will you be able to arrange a ticket for 3rd or 4th? Because I asked Ramesh. He told me that better to ask... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I don't advise you to arrange for 3rd or 4th. I tell you that you should go back as soon as possible and begin to work on this. What will be benefit by... Vrindavan De: If I get it on 2nd. Because tomorrow's ticket may not be available or day after. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Let us see what I can arrange. How you want to go? By Toofan? *Vrindavan De: Yes. That can be... But I was feeling most uneasy in the air*-conditioned chair car, because the outside climate was very cold, and inside was very cold the whole night. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So Toofan would be better? Kalka Mail is better. Vrindavan De: Calcutta from Delhi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So? Vrindavan De: Then where should I stay in the night? It leaves at eight o'clock in the morning to Calcutta. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stay at our temple. Vrindavan De: Toofan is better I think. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If available. Vrindavan De: As this Mail from here, Mathurā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So where to get the...? I don't want to get the tickets from Mathurā. I want to get the tickets from Delhi. That is my point. I will arrange to purchase a ticket from Delhi. Vrindavan De: But where can I stay in the night? Prabhupāda: Or you can go by plane. We shall pay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. His only point is where he will stay at night. But I'm telling him he can stay in our Delhi center very comfortably. See, if we get the tickets from Delhi I can arrange... There's no... The main thing is I want to purchase the ticket originating in Delhi. Then you have a confirmed reservation. Vrindavan De: Because a Deluxe leaves in the afternoon. That would be better. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Deluxe from Delhi. So it passes by Tundla. So you can pick it up there. You don't even have to go all the way to Delhi. Vrindavan De: No, if I can start in the morning I can reach by two or three o'clock. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But even if you have to go in the morning from Delhi, I can arrange for your accommodation in Delhi very nicely. My letter to them will give you very good accommodation in Delhi center, very comfortable. You're not inconvenienced here. You're staying overnight here. Prabhupāda: You can return to Delhi in the after... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See, because I know you can get reservations immediately to go to Calcutta from Delhi. (aside:) You were just there. You know that. Because there's so many trains going, Delhi*-Calcutta, and if you purchase the ticket here or if you purchase the ticket from Mathurā you'll wait ten days. Remember how we had to wait? Vrindavan De: Last time I paid ten rupees as bribe. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And even then we couldn't get immediately. But in Delhi we can get it immediately. Especially with foreign quota, it's very easy. They give immediately ticket. You can get the same night. So I'll arrange that. Vrindavan De: So I can go to Delhi day after tomorrow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Like that. I'll arrange and I'll give you a letter. You go. In any case you go to the Delhi temple. Today itself... Vrindavan De: I don't know the place. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll give you all details. And I'll make all of the arrangements for you to be able to go. Today itself we'll purchase the ticket, and then they'll telephone us what day the ticket is for. That's not difficult. I'll send a man also. Did you have your bath yet? Vrindavan De: Not yet. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You've got a room yet? Vrindavan De: Not yet. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I'm going to arrange for his room and everything, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Vrindavan De: (Bengali) Somebody has arrived on 13th from Bombay? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To where? Vrindavan De: To Vṛndāvana. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Thirteenth. Thirtieth October someone is coming? Vrindavan De: Thirteenth. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your man, you mean? Vrindavan De: My man met with Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know. Vrindavan De: (Bengali) Because my man arrived on 4th, and he came back on 6th because Dhana Jani(?) was already booked from Calcutta. He delivered some fruits or something to your devotee in Bombay. I don't think that... There is a list... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we never got. I don't think we got. Vrindavan De: And we have also sent some letter with Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Never received? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That I think we received. We got a lot of letters from you. None of them were replied because of Prabhupāda's health. Vrindavan De: (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I got seven or eight letters from you. Vrindavan De: There was no tickets available before 10th or 11th. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To where? Vrindavan De: To, by Toofan. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Toofan is hopeless. Vrindavan De: Even by Calcutta. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but we'll get from Delhi side. That was pūjā time. Vrindavan De: First I got a ticket on 30th. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If I don't get the ticket by train, then I'll book a plane ticket. Vrindavan: Train is... And I'm not a man of that position. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Let us see. If necessary we'll... In any case we're paying for your..., always, whenever you come to see Prabhupāda. So let us first try for train, and if we see that... Prabhupāda: That we can pay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we see that there's no trains available, then we'll book a plane. Prabhupāda: Or you can book a plane, accordingly. You can return immediately. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You send your telegram. [break] Well, I consider him as a Godbrother. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You wrote in your book that the spiritual master's family, former family, should be considered in a reverential way. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is done. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. No, when I write him a letter I say, "Please accept my humble obeisances." So I write him as a Godbrother. He also writes to me like that. Prabhupāda: So do the needful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Śatadhanya: ...was present there also, so he can confirm that we spoke with him and he... *Prabhupāda: No, "Confirmed... I approached and he has spoken"*-these things are going on. These things are paid.(?) Everything is lost. You talked personally with him, and he said that he's very responsible, and he's... Śatadhanya: He's proved responsible in the past. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śatadhanya: In the past he has always been responsible. Prabhupāda: What can I do? Śatadhanya: Sometimes it's not possible also to get a flight. Sometimes it's full. Prabhupāda: You are simply suggesting. Actually... Śatadhanya: Actually we don't know why he has not yet come. Prabhupāda: And you said that you talked with him personally. Did you? Śatadhanya: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You talked personally, he was going in the morning, and where is? Śatadhanya: Yes, he said he was immediately going. He said he was going to immediately go and see that kavirāja and ask him to come and then get on the first plane he could get. That's what he said. Prabhupāda: Who is he? Śatadhanya: That's Haṁsadūta. Mādhava: We can begin the bath now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...tomorrow probably. (indistinct) ...loan... Actually we're not loaning him that money. That money is being given as a gift to him. He was willing to pay it back. I said, no, this is a gift from you to him for improving his business. I said actually it's meant for each of the family members. I told him, "You use it now for improving your business. Then if business increases, you can eventually pay each one of them the money that they should have gotten." He said, "Very nice." And I explained to him what squandering meant. Now it is very clear. I told him that "You can use the money each month that you get. And all of you can use it for three things: for purchasing property, increasing business or buying government stocks." I said, "Prabhupāda's point is that whatever he's given you, it should increase in its value. He wants to see that it increases." And now it's very definite, so... Again I explained to him how there should be no difficulty with this, getting this... He's a little lazy. He's lazy. I could see that when he thought that the money was a donation, I think it came in his mind that "Even if the business deal doesn't go through, I still get the money." He should be encouraged, but his tendency is to be a little lazy. They should not be given money easily, too easily. Otherwise they won't work hard. He's also getting some money, he told me, from a fixed deposit in Calcutta from the BBT which he uses for travel expenses. He says gradually he will be paying some of that money back. He said that's why he sent you sometimes... He recently sent 870 rupees. He says that he's using it for travel expenses, and he may pay it back. I didn't know if you had arranged anything regarding that. You expect him to pay that money back, or not necessarily? It should be. Prabhupāda: No, I expect. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing I got a good feeling this time, today, from speaking with him is that I feel very confident about our dealings together. I found that they have no mischievous plan. They're simple. And that relaxed my mind a lot when I saw that. If anything, they're a little worried that they won't get a monthly amount. I said, "Don't worry about that." I think also that he'll keep his word, means that if some agreement... Just like if I said to him that "When the business becomes better, you may pay the other members," I think they'll live up to whatever the word is, you know, because they're always afraid that they may not get the monthly amount. Prabhupāda: Guide them. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They are simple people. That's the feeling I got today. So I'll pay him whatever he expended for coming here plus his airfare to go back to Calcutta. And probably I'll suggest that he leave tomorrow. He wanted to spend more time, but I told him that "Now you should do this business and don't delay now. This is not the time to take extra time. You can come back later on." Pisimā's son's name is Chandra? Hm. Bhakti*-caru has his address. Is the diarrhea more or less stopped now? Upendra: He hasn't... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Passed any stool? Upendra: That one in the morning was only... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Little, little. *Upendra: Little, like Bhakti*-caru said. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So tonight, Śrīla Prabhupāda, tonight you have not passed anything. Then you try to take something, drinking something. Prabhupāda: I'm drinking something. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not very much today. Prabhupāda: How can I drink very much? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it's relative, I mean to say. Just like you can drink up to a thousand cc's in a day. Today probably there hasn't been so much. Today has been only about 300 that you drank. So I'm just saying that better to take it easy today. But by tonight, if everything is all right... Prabhupāda: Means there will be stool. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. That was only when you were taking that medicine. Prabhupāda: Now the bowel is loose, whatever I will take, it will go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. You can feel that it's still loose. How long will it remain like that? Prabhupāda: How can I say? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You can feel that it's loose. That's different. Isn't there some... I know that like sometimes if I have this problem, there's certain things that one can take which make it, the bowel tightened up. Like I know I would take sometimes rice and plantain. It wouldn't have a good effect? Prabhupāda: Rice I cannot touch even. If I hear about rice, any solid food, immediately... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vomiting tendency. Hm. Then fasting? Prabhupāda: What can be done? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The bowels should become tighter after a day or two. It shouldn't remain loose for so many days. I mean, surely it must get tighter. The medicine caused it to become like this. Prabhupāda: So he's taking the certificate? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When he goes I'll give it to him. He'll take the certificates, and I'll dictate a letter. I'll write a letter to the bank, which I'll send to Bombay for Girirāja's signature. I'll also give him a copy of the notary of the power of attorney. So with all of these documents... He has sufficient time. It's only on the 7th of November that it comes due. With Chandra's help, he can get everything. Then it's up to him to negotiate with the bank for the loan. I don't think I should do that for him. I'm a sannyāsī. If I have to start doing his business for him..., I don't think you would want me to do that, do you? Prabhupāda: Not to help him... If he can get some... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe he should try to get the loan through the Central Bank, Camac Street. They might be more inclined. They know he's, I think, connected with Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: You have got some Central Bank passbooks? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have Central Bank passbooks. I don't know if I have one with us. It may be in Bombay or Calcutta. Just the fact that that bank is familiar with us. Prabhupāda: They have to see where there is account money. I cannot remember. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, I've got it... I mean I'm doing good on this. You mean just in general to keep everything properly. Is that what you mean, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean generally to keep everything in order. Yes, I have a very good hold on it. Some things... You know, because formerly they never kept these things down. Now I'm finding out things. But whenever I get extra information, I note it. Pretty much I have all of the things in order. Just like now I just found out for the first time that he's getting a monthly interest from one of the fixed deposits in the name of BBT. That was never noted. So when I find out the amount, I'll just note it. Then I can deduct it each month from the account that I'm keeping. Like that, sometimes I get new information. Prabhupāda: So you have to search out. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but I've actually been doing that. And I've also been checking whenever they give interest that it's exactly the right amount. I make sure each year they credit the interest, keeping watch carefully of the fixed deposits to see when they come matured, like that. Prabhupāda: Only thing is that M. M. De and Sulaksmana. They should not be given more than twelve...(?) (two hundred...?) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The only thing is about M. M. De? I've just dictated a letter to the Central Bank of India. I'm going to send this letter to Girirāja that... Prabhupāda: He has become Communist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're giving him no..., 250 now, but 750 is put in fixed deposit for him. The total is a thousand rupees he's getting. He only gets 250. But the other part is put into fixed deposit for seven years. I don't want to change that letter to the bank, because we've given it as a standing order now. Prabhupāda: He can simply get... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two*-fifty. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's all that any of them get right now. And the rest goes into fixed deposit. Prabhupāda: And they may remain, lifetime. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Provided they don't squander it. If they squander, then it will go to the charity. And now it's very easy for me to check up once a year. I'll just see how they have used the money. They'll have to show me that it's invested somehow. And if they can't show me, then I'll threaten them that "If you don't change this... You must change it. Otherwise the money will be given to charity." And they'll do it. If they use it for investing, then the interest they make in investment, that they can do anything they want with. Prabhupāda: So what about this kavirāja? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śatadhanya just placed a lightning call to Delhi to see if they've heard anything. Otherwise, if he doesn't hear anything, he may have to go to Calcutta himself. One thing is that I did not expect that within... You know, as we called this morning, I did not expect that the man would come here by this afternoon. I mean a thing like this has to take a least a day's time. The man has to be informed... Prabhupāda: No, no. Whether actually any talk was there? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, Jayapatākā... The original message came from Jayapatākā to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa in Delhi, and he said that he had personally, so far Gopāla told me that this was coming from Jayapatākā, that Jayapatākā told him... Prabhupāda: Where is Gopāla? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's in Bombay. He's gone to Bombay. I mean we'll know... Personally, I think that within a day's time you'll know everything about this kavirāja. If there's no such thing, then you'll know that. If there is, you'll either see him here or you'll get news of when he's coming. Or you may get news that there's no way he can come; we have to come there. But I think within a day's time you'll get the news. Prabhupāda: No, this boy Śatadhanya, he said, "I have personally talked. He is very responsible." *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Adri*-dhāraṇa. He personal... Yeah. Prabhupāda: But what kind of responsible? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I don't think it's irresponsible. This is still too early to be expecting that we would definitely have heard anything. Sometimes... There's so many reasons why it would take this long to even contact the man. Supposing the man has gone out of the city for a day. It's entirely possible. I mean, naturally because you're ill, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you're feeling, you know, immediately to want news of him. (pause) Do you think that this M. M. would try to cause any trouble in the future? Or is he so useless that he won't do that even? Prabhupāda: He has taken power of attorney from his mother. I think whatever money is going to his mother... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He uses. He can control. But apart from that, he can't do much more. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But one thing is that the account which is..., the money is going into for his mother, is operated jointly by Vrindavan. So I think that's a safeguard. And now with this amendment, if they don't use the money properly, they won't get it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they'll have to use it properly. So I'd better continue to write some of these letters, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That way I can get him to expedite his business. I'll be in the next room, in the office. [break] Prabhupāda: What is going on? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is going on right now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, not too much. I was just writing some notes down. I finished my correspondence. Others are chanting japa, doing kīrtana here. Prabhupāda: The kavirāja has not come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not so far, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Śatadhanya Mahārāja got information that they have left for Delhi on the plane at about noontime, which means they would have arrived about three o'clock in Delhi. So it's now 6:30, 6:25, which would mean that they should be here very shortly. Prabhupāda: So they have arrived? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, if they got on the plane they should have arrived. Prabhupāda: What is time now? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the time now? About 6:25. Do you think you passed stool again, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I do not know. Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Upendra is checking. Prabhupāda: What is going on outside? *Trivikrama: Ārati just... Nanda*-kumāra just came. Upendra: I can't see what is... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Upendra couldn't tell. Are you feeling tired still? Prabhupāda: You are not bringing the kavirāja? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he hasn't come yet, no, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I think that if he comes any moment, it will have been very, very quick that he came. I mean actually... Prabhupāda: If not, so that means hopeless. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Let us wait, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because he should be here very shortly. I mean it's actually miraculous how quickly everything was done, how we were able to call Calcutta in the middle of the night, how Adri*-dhāraṇa was able to get the man and bring him on a train..., plane by noontime, how we again were able to reach Calcutta on the telephone and get this information. So far, it appears that everything is very quickly being done. So we just have to be a little... You know. We have to be a little bit patient. Prabhupāda: Do you think I shall die very quickly? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Do you think I shall die very quick? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I don't think you shall die. Prabhupāda: I wanted that kavirāja last night, so he was not possible?(?) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which one? Prabhupāda: That kavirāja from Calcutta. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You wanted him? So he's coming. Prabhupāda: When he's coming? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's supposed to be here any moment, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (whispering) Hm. I'll check my schedule. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhakti*-caru Mahārāja suggested that they may have taken the hopping flight from Calcutta, which stops in about three different places. I can just see my airline... I don't have an up-to-date airline schedule, but even the one I have might indicate the afternoon flight. Shall I see it? Prabhupāda: Everything is theory. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, not really, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's not all theory. We spoke with the man. He went out and got the kavirāja. When we again called Calcutta we were informed that they had left on the plane. I mean there's no reason to suspect that people are lying to us, our own Godbrothers are lying to us. I mean it's so close to the time when they should arrive that we shouldn't become discouraged. I mean right now we could send Śatadhanya Mahārāja to Calcutta, but it would be very bad to do that, because the kavirāja may be five miles out of Vṛndāvana right now. Or he may have just reached Delhi if he came on this propeller plane. We have every reason to believe that he'll be here at any moment. We have no reason to feel that he shouldn't come. Bhavānanda: He's definitely in transit, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's nothing at all to lead us to feel dismayed that they haven't..., he hasn't... For example... I mean we got the call through to Calcutta by 2:30, and they said that he got the kavirāja and they got on the plane and left. That's very, very positive information. I mean, imagine if someone had picked up the phone in Calcutta and said, "I don't know," or "He couldn't find the kavirāja." But they said, "He got the kavirāja and they got on the plane." That's very, very positive information. Maybe we should read a little bit. That will be a good diversion now. Prabhupāda: What you'll read? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, the other night... I mean we could read SB.. I'm always eager for you to hear *Bhāgavatam*. I mean, I wanted to call... I always like to call Pradyumna and Jayādvaita. Of course, that requires... If you wanted to translate, you could make the effort. Otherwise Jayādvaita could read some of the edited work. *Bhakti*-caru: He went to Delhi. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that Jayādvaita went to Delhi today. Why? (quietly) Irresponsible. He goes. He didn't even tell me. [break] ...read Kṛṣṇa book, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. [break] Vrindavan De: (Bengali with Prabhupāda) Prabhupāda: So you have not given him letters? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: The necessary letters, you have not... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he won't be able... The letter will be signed by Girirāja and then sent to you. But the necessary other things I will give you. All the necessary things will be given. Prabhupāda: Why don't you give him? Why...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm? Give him right now? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the use of its sitting here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of his sitting here? Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of its sitting here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I can give him just now. Shall I bring? I have it in my almirah. I was going to give it to him tomorrow after I showed him the letter and explained everything. I've dictated a letter. Prabhupāda: And if he has got business, why he should remain here? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I also felt that he should expedite his journey. He should go as soon as possible. Actually I have everything that I need to give him I can give him right now*-the letter which will be sent to the bank, and I'll be sending... Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Vrindavan De: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: He wants to return as quickly as possible. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I personally felt you could go tomorrow even, 'cause I thought that you could actually... I think the earlier you get back to Calcutta the better. But his idea was to leave Sunday, I think. Vrindavan De: Sunday, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today is Friday. So he wanted to leave the day after tomorrow. Otherwise everything is ready for him to go whenever he wants it. Vrindavan De: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Where is the certificates? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I bring them? The certificates are with the bank, but we have the counterfoil identity slips. Prabhupāda: So give him. Let him go away. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just now? Prabhupāda: I said now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Vrindavan De: (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I turn on a light, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the certificates are lying with the bank. And I'm writing a letter to the bank informing them to take collection... Prabhupāda: Give me... Straight. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Make Prabhupāda straight. He wants to be up straight. Lift that leg up on the pillow. Okay, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Lift him from the center. It's not so much from here; it's there. That's it. (to Vrindavan:) So the certificates are lying with the bank, and I've written them a letter that they should take collection, the bank should take collection from the post office directly, and that after taking collection, the full amount of money should be transferred to your account, Vrinda Book Company, care of United Bank. We're making the payment to his company, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: The account number? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He didn't have the account number, but he has the name of the account and the ledger page and the bank and the address of the bank, which I think is sufficient. Vrindavan De: That is enough, I think. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Actually, even without the account number, if you have the name of the account it sufficient. Vrindavan De: Name, "Number 11," that's enough for account. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So, then I've also informed them in the letter that the proprietor of the company-and I mentioned your name*-that we have given you the counterfoil identity slips and also that we have given you the receipt for the safe custody. These certificates were kept in safe custody, so we're giving you the receipt, because it says that in order for these... Of course the bank can do everything, but you can deliver these identity slips and the safe custody receipt to the bank. Vrindavan De: To my banker? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, not to your banker. To Prabhupāda's bank, the Bank of Baroda. Then I also mentioned that I am enclosing a copy of the power of attorney, that "Prabhupāda has been ill so he has difficulty in signing and he has duly empowered the following two persons." And that power of attorney will also be sent to them. So I'm also going to write a letter to Chandra requesting him to give Vrindavan help, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So he will carry all these letters. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what he's going to do... Today I'm giving you... And I explained to Vrindavan, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that originally these receipts, these postal receipts, were meant for all of the five former family members, but as he's doing business now and he requires some money, that Your Divine Grace is giving him this money as a good chance. And I said that he should utilize it to develop the business. And in the future, when there is sufficient money, he may pay to the individuals the amount that they would have gotten from these postal receipts. But first of all use it and develop the business. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: It will be success... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So these are the receipts. They're not actually the certificates themselves, but they're... As you can see, it's called an identity slip. I'll just take one and read it to you. As it's mentioned... It's mentioned on the N.B., on the back side. "N.B. This slip may not be surrendered to the post office when the holder discharges only some of the certificates held by him, but must be handed over when all the certificates detailed in the slip have been cashed." So the bank will want these. You can hand them over, you take a receipt from them, that "These were given by Vrindavan*-candra De to you," like that. That's when... Vrindavan De: Shall I give it to my banker? This? Or to Bank of Baroda? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. You give it to Bank of Baroda. Vrindavan De: In Calcutta? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Vrindavan De: Ācchā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You give it to Bank of Baroda. Prabhupāda: Take Chandra with you. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Take Chandra. Really, you should take his help for the whole thing. He can definitely be of help. Now, the other thing I'm giving you is the receipt for safe custody. Actually, because we're doing everything through the bank, neither of these are actually required. But it will be further proof of your bona fide by showing here you are with these things. Then obviously you're the correct person. It just further identifies you. Otherwise how could you get these things. Vrindavan De: I should give them to the... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you can give them... They may not even ask for them, but you can show them: "I have these. Do you require them?" If they say yes, then you take a receipt from them. Vrindavan De: Then I should be duly authorized to hand over. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's already in the letter. The letter authorizes you that you are having these. That's pretty much all we could give him at this time, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The letter will be going to the bank, with a copy sent to him at his business address. And that should be coming to you, I would think, by the 4th, something like that. Vrindavan De: Fourth. I shall be in Calcutta at that time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But in the meantime, on Monday, you should approach your bankers and explain to them that you're going to have fifty thousand rupees, and against this you want a further loan of fifty thousand rupees against the bill, which you can show them. And if they require it, you can arrange for the person who's paying to make direct payment to them, including interest. Vrindavan De: Ācchā. To my banker. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then how can they object? You see? Especially because the person is the government of India. If it were another party, they might say, "Well, we want some guarantee." But no one will ask for guarantee from the National Library. So like that, you can make a nice arrangement. And we figured out, Śrīla Prabhupāda, he's going to make about twelve to fifteen thousand... (end) *Room Conversation-*-October 29, 1977, Våndävana Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: To transport the medicine, someone can bring it from Calcutta here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or the same things, if the ingredients can be gotten from Delhi or Agra, they can be prepared here. We have Prabhupāda's car. We can go. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: It's distilled. He has got to distill the medicine. For that he needs proper apparatus. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: He's saying Śrīla Prabhupāda should drink at least a kilo of milk every day. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew! If he personally feeds Prabhupāda, I can believe that he'll take it. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: He said that for ten, fifteen days let him be like this here, and then he'll take him to Māyāpura. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: And he can take personal charge. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So now you have to get these medicines. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. He wants to see the kavirāja also, because he's going to give some instructions to him in case, when he is not here, so that he can... (Hindi) There's a young kavirāja in the Rāmānuja... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But that other gentleman will not... *Bhakti*-caru: No, no, not him. I'm talking about Śrī Raṅgajī's temple there is a young kavirāja. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali) [break] *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So in that way he was thinking to leave, but now he's agreed to stay on for at least five or six days. We convinced him that "You stay here and you take Prabhupāda to Māyāpura personally." That's what we're pushing for. We explained how all of his patients put together multiplied by one crore cannot equal Your Divine Grace. And he agreed. He said, "That I know." And we explained that... He was quoting from Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. So we explained how Your Divine Grace was the representative and incarnation of Vyāsadeva, and he accepted that. He has very high respect for Vyāsadeva and for you because he's seen your books. He knows that you're not ordinary. Then he described what was wrong with you and how he's going to be treating it. Then I was asking him what is his native place. So he's a Marwari. Then he was telling us the native town. And I asked him if he had any charitable dispensary. He said he wouldn't take any money. We were trying to think of different ways to... Anyway, he wouldn't take any money. Then he said... He talked about his father. His father was a very big devotee of Nṛsiṁhadeva. So one day his father plus eleven other Vaiṣṇavas went to Badarikāśrama for darśana of the Deities. They were walking, and on the way they were attacked by these baels.(?) They're called baels? Bhavānanda: Aborigines in the north. Very ferocious. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're ferocious men. So the men said that "Now we will kill you and take your money, plunder you." So his father said, "Well, we will give you whatever we have, but what is the use of killing us?" They said, "No, we are not brāhmaṇas. We are aborigines. So we like to kill also." So then the father said, "Then at least, the king, even if he hangs someone, he gives them five minutes for prayer. So give us five minutes." So then all of the Vaiṣṇavas, they chanted Nṛsiṁhadeva mantras very strongly. And suddenly there was a strong roaring of a lion, and a big ferocious lion leaped into the middle and ate up two of the attackers. And then all of the Vaiṣṇavas, they bowed down at the feet of the lion and they were offering prayers, and the lion went away. So his father... He said that if one has a pure heart, if he's a pure Vaiṣṇava, Kṛṣṇa can appear. He said in the form of the lion Kṛṣṇa actually protected them. So he wants to make some charitable dispensary in his home town on behalf of his father. I'm thinking if he cures you we will give him a nice donation towards that charitable dispensary. Then we told him that... We asked him what kind of food does he like. So he told us, so that now we'll make arrangement. We gave him very good food this morning, and we will cook him ruṭis. Bhakti*-caru and another devotee are cooking. So they will cook him fresh vegetables as he likes, according to his taste. And Adri-dhāraṇa serves him personally. And then I said also, "While you're here, there's much time. We can take you to the different temples." Because this is the first time he's come to Vṛndāvana. I said, "Even in the afternoon you can go with Prabhupāda's car to Govardhana." He said, "First of all, before darśana, let us do the medicine." So he went with the car. He said, "I will drive the car. I can drive." We said, "We have a driver." He said, "If you don't have a driver, I will drive to get the medicine." So then they went into the city to get..., into Vṛndāvana to get the necessary medicines. He said very strongly, "What I prescribe, no vaidya can talk over what I prescribe. If I prescribe something, it is correct. That I'm sure." But he is very devotional, very pakka, like a Marwari, just like a high-class life member. He sits very straight and he's... Now we will have to see. But the main point we stressed is that you will not have confidence in anyone else. So there's no point in..., that he should tell some other man that in his absence, "Do like this." Because supposing in his absence the medicine doesn't work right. Then the other kavirāja becomes the kavirāja. That we don't want. I said, "You must see the reaction of the medicines, and you must... When Prabhupāda eats, you must sit there and watch and see what he's eating, see everything." And he said, "That I will do." Another nice, thing Śrīla Prabhupāda. Remember, you initiated one devotee, Rādhā-Ramaṇa Goswami? You remember his father and mother, Joshis, from Delhi? You lived with them. So he wrote a letter to you about a week ago, saying that he wanted to come back. So I wrote him, "Yes, you come. Prabhupāda will see you." So he came today. He's in saffron with shaved head. So I thought afterwards he can come and... He wants to become a devotee again. He's wasted his five years. He knows he's wasted time. Akṣayānanda Mahārāja suggested that he can engage in helping Bhakti-prema Swami. Because Bhakti-prema, he dictates, but he needs someone to hear and to write. This way, he'll be working for your books and hearing the philosophy, and he's a literate person. Three years in college. Anyway, he returned today. Nanda-kumāra also came. He arrived yesterday. So gradually everyone is returning to your lotus feet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Not possible to leave you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So would you like to go on the parikrama this morning? We can make arrangements now? Upendra: We have some grape juice? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to take something, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Drinking? Prabhupāda: I have taken in the morning Horlicks. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You took Horlicks? Want to take anymore? Śatadhanya: We have some here. Bhavānanda: Grape juice they prepared, should you want to take. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's about ten to eleven, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about ten minutes to eleven. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...we can go on parikrama. The weather is cool in Vṛndāvana now, even during the day. We'll put your sunglasses on so you won't be disturbed by the light. (background talking) Śatadhanya: It's grape juice, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Bhavānanda: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja and I went into the temple for darśana, and we were commenting how the people are so impressed by the Deities, all of the visitors, especially Rādhā-Śyāmasundara. They're so beautifully dressed. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhavānanda Mahārāja was saying how last night you were saying that there's nothing nicer and more fortunate than to be the pūjārī of a Deity. [break] We'll just get the sum and substance. He's offering his obeisances to Bhavānanda Mahārāja and the other devotees he met here. He says he's very anxious about your health and progress. He requested me to give him a report. He says as regards to starting of the dispensary and also organizing a health teaching center for educating the boys by the latest audio*-visual methods, he said that you seemed to be very earnest about it. In fact, he says that you told him to start as soon as possible. But he wishes to explain some of his difficulties. So Sharma and Jagadīśa, the director of education, and... They they've promised to go through the idea. But he didn't find that Dr. Sharma showed much inclination for this idea. The actual thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that we want him to have a dispensary. We're not so much eager for his educational training. Naturally Dr. Sharma was not so enthusiastic. Prabhupāda: No. Ours is spiritual education, no medical education. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. That's the point. Prabhupāda: Preliminary health principles, they can le... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's already going on. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sharma is teaching Ayurvedic, basic Ayurvedic. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, anyway, that's... So I'll explain to him that what we want... I already wrote him a letter inviting him to... He can have two rooms, one for his living and one for his dispensary, and treat the inmates here. I'll again repeat that. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: Light? *Hanumān*-prasāda: Dr. Sharma said that you named introduction as Antar-Darśana because it gives in essence of the entire... Prabhupāda: Hm? *Hanumān*-prasāda: Dr. Sharma suggested that we name introduction as Antar-Darśana, because it is the essence of the entire commentary. We have summarized the entire thing into thirty pages. So I thought we can name it... *Prabhupāda: Antar*-Darśana? *Hanumān*-prasāda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Good. Read it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Read it. *Hanumān*-prasāda: (reads Hindi book or article and discusses with Prabhupāda in Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: As it is. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's in all languages. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's unlimited service that one can render. *Hanumān*-prasāda: That's why I become a bit discouraged sometimes because I'm not able to do what I want to do. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: So you can translate also. *Hanumān*-prasāda: I want. It's his mercy we shall do. (Hindi) He's a divine power. That's all. He's not a person. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: You want to take some prasādam? Prabhupāda: Here... (?) Bharadvāja: Nayanābhirāma. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Prabhupāda: (Hindi) *Upendra: Oh, Śrīla Prabhupāda, none of us speak Hindi. There's no more Hindi*-speaking disciples at your side just now. Bharadvāja, Nayanābhirāma and myself, Upendra dāsa, are here. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...report... Upendra: They have that article in the next room. Nayanābhirāma: I just cut it out. Upendra: And we'll show it to Rajiv. They've gone to take prasādam just now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Just make it dark. (sound of curtains closing) [break] *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...for getting a little more clear purposes of the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust we're developing at Gauḍa*-maṇḍala-bhūmi. Would you like to hear what we have written? Prabhupāda: Hm. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: "First point: To systematically propagate spiritual knowledge to the residents and the visitors of Gauḍa*-maṇḍala-bhūmi. Second point: To propagate the consciousness of Kṛṣṇa, as it is revealed in Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and to propagate that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself, as is revealed in Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta and the Caitanya Bhāgavata. 3) To bring all the members of ā together nearer to Lord Caitanya and thus develop within humanity at large that each soul is a part and parcel of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. 4) To teach and encourage the saṅkīrtana movement of congregational chanting of the holy names of God given in the teachings of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. 5) To erect temples, schools, colleges, universities, institutes of higher studies, hospitals and other buildings with or for the advancement of the objects of the Trust and to maintain, alter and improve the same, including existing buildings, and to furnish and equip the same. 6) In keeping with the spirit of the previous ācārya's vision of Gauḍīya-Mādhva sampradāya, to cement relations with all the sister temples of Gauḍīya-Mādhva sampradāya under one banner, to solidify preaching the message of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as desired by His Divine Grace Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda and Śrīla Ṭhākura Bhaktivinoda and all the previous ācāryas in this line. 7) With a view to achieving the aforementioned purposes and to publish and distribute periodicals, magazines, and other books and other items. 8) To do all such other things for the attainment of the objects of the Trust. 9) Trustee members are appointed lifetime. The members should always be seven. 10) A meeting once a year at Śrīdhāma Māyāpura during Gaura-Pūrṇimā. 11) There should be a chairman, a treasurer, and a secretary elected each year. 12) A quorum of at least five members." Finishes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So these are the points, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that we have... We expanded this. Your original simple point was to form a Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity for developing Gauḍa*-maṇḍala-bhūmi. So we have expanded it into these points if they please Your Divine Grace. We took the ideas mostly from your original points in the..., when you formed the New York corporation, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We used those points and just changed them around a little bit. Today that Jagadish, I forget his name, that lawyer from Mathurā, he is coming, so I'm going to be meeting with him, and I'll give him these points and see if he can draft a document, proper document. I'd like to get a document done in time so that when we go to Māyāpura, and especially at Gaura-Pūrṇimā, we can have the first meeting. [break] Bhavānanda: ...mantras nonstop, while he's preparing. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is Vrindavan? I spoke with him for about two hours this afternoon, going over all of the points again, and, er, I explained everything to him. He said that he personally has very bad luck, very unlucky person. He said, "My only possible hope is my father." Prabhupāda: To guide him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I told him, "You're right. Actually Prabhupāda is... All of us were in the same position. We're all unlucky. Our only hope is Śrīla Prabhupāda." I said, "As long as you keep remembering that, then you'll be all right." [break] Prabhupāda: Hm. Submissive, we can guide him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said he's very frightened of you. I told him that we also are. (laughter) I said, "Even though Prabhupāda is lying in bed ill, we are very frightened also." Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's a fact. [break] Prabhupāda: You are doing? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] *Pañca*-draviḍa: We are very much fortunate that after so many millions of lifetimes in the material world we have finally met a qualified spiritual master. *Prabhupāda: For fifty years they could not construct a maṇḍapa in Gauḍa*-maṇḍala. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust, or Charitable Trust? Which do you prefer, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That I do not know. You... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda said... [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He stays in the governor's room. Room number 31. We gave him nice prasādam. Is the kavirāja here right now, Śatadhanya Mahārāja? Is he? Śatadhanya: He was mixing medicines a little while ago. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to see him, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, not necessary. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. [break] ...appreciative of Your Divine Grace and of ISKCON. Adri*-dhāraṇā reports that while they were traveling together, during the ten hours they were discussing your Society's activities around the world. And the Shastriji was saying how the effect of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so transcendental that even if a person is mleccha-yavana, he can become a pure devotee by chanting of the holy name. And he said therefore he feels that the work which you are doing is the most important work being done by anyone in the whole world. He's very favorable towards you and towards ISKCON and the devotees. [break] ...has to admit that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that your work is the topmost of anyone on this planet. [break] (kavirāja and Prabhupāda, Bhakti-caru-Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: He's saying that the more Śrīla Prabhupāda sleeps, it's better for him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really. He's sleeping a lot. Today you were sleeping a lot, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He took three spoonfuls. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, did you have any problem with the stool today? There was not so much passing, I think. *Bhakti*-caru: Not at all today. Prabhupāda: Stool? No. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that problem has cleared up. It was that medicine. That medicine, that makara*-dhvaja. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why is it that Prabhupāda has no thirst? *Bhakti*-caru: (asks kavirāja in Hindi) He says it's not good to have too much thirst. It's better in this condition. He's not eating anything. To have the thirst is a kind of disease when the bile secretion increases. Kavirāja: No wind. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: The assistant? Somebody is appointed assistant. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Adri*-dhāraṇā is doing all assisting and serving to him, Adri-dhāraṇā, the boy who brought him. Prabhupāda: No, Raṅganātha temple, somebody? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Not yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We're not getting into that, because hopefully we want him to stay for, some time. Prabhupāda: He has agreed. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's agreed to stay for some time. Prabhupāda: No, that assistant. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we haven't approached anyone yet. *Bhakti*-caru: No, he has come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, you did approach? *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. Like, he just wanted to consult him. Consult him in the sense... At the first place he had to discuss about certain preparations, and he didn't have the books with him, so he wanted to see the books, so I took him there. And then he liked him, talking to him, and he says he's a very efficient person. So he wanted him to come tomorrow, so like when he is not here... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How long he will stay here for? *Bhakti*-caru: Four or five days he agreed to stay. But he says that in four or five days Śrīla Prabhupāda won't be able to travel. It will be at least ten to fifteen days. At that time... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, let us see. Maybe we can convince him to stay. Svarūpa Dāmodara: A bit longer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should try. Śrīla Prabhupāda? I had meeting with that lawyer? That man is wonderful. He is the first lawyer I have ever met that I honestly feel is an honest man. That Jagadish... Prabhupāda: Agarwal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that his name? Agarwal? From Mathurā. Whew! Very high class man, thoroughly gentleman. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Noble*-minded. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We met. Svarūpa Dāmodara and I spent an hour at Bhagatji's house. Bhagatji brought him. So he's going to do that Trust. He says in three or four days time he can finish it, Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust, with the aims and objects we have given. Then I talked about that squandering amendment. So he explained that the best way to do it is that we amend it to say that they always get 250 rupees for their maintenance, and the other 750 rupees, instead of fixing it in their names, fix it in the name of ISKCON, and ISKCON executors of the will shall see that they give them the money at the time of seven years for the purposes of three: purchasing property, business, and for buying government stocks. And the profits from those, they can do anything they want with. He said don't let them put the 750 rupees in their name, because then they can do anything they want with it, squander it. But if you put the money in fixed deposit in ISKCON's name, then ISKCON can give them the money after seven years, for those three purposes. So if you approve, then he can make an amendment clause, and then you can sign it, and then it can be done. He understood everything very perfectly. He said actually... He understood it perfectly. Actually, because everything belongs to ISKCON, the whole will is more or less a moral, spiritual guidance, because legally everything is already ISKCON's. So I said, "But we want it to be morally and guided spiritually. To us, this is the will. Whatever this will says, we must follow as Prabhupāda's disciples." He said, "Then I can make an amendment, which would be like that, that every month they'll get 250 rupees for their whole lifetime, and the 750 rupees will be put in fixed deposit for seven years in the name of ISKCON, and at the end of that, the ISKCON executors of the will, will give them each the money each month, fifteen hundred rupees, for the purpose of..., in those three ways, and that the money should not be squandered." He said that way, if ISKCON sees that the money is being squandered, then they stop giving them that money and they'll just give 250 rupees. Two hundred fifty rupees they must get. And Radharani De, she may get always one thousand rupees. She is older. Let her have that. Whatever she does is her business with the money. And, I think, it is a very good way. And we'll all make sure that they get the money, but they must use it properly. It's Kṛṣṇa's money. Prabhupāda: And they'll remain in that house lifetime. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It's a very good house. I spoke to him. I said, "Have you made any friends in that house?" He said, "Oh, they're all..." He called them lakhi*-pati and crore-pati. (Prabhupāda laughs) I said, "So it's very good house. Such big people are living there." Prabhupāda: Who said lakhi.... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vrindavan. He was saying that they're all big people living there. So I said, "That's good. It means a high class place. You don't move out of there." He said, "It is a good place." Prabhupāda: Very first class place. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is first class. There's no doubt about it. I also got him a plane ticket. I sent a man to Delhi today, and we got the reservation. So he'll be leaving Vṛndāvana tomorrow morning at about 9:30, 9:00-9:30. So I told him that he should come and see you. He'll come in the morning to see you. He was... A couple of time you were sleeping today, so he could not come. Otherwise he was wanting to come. Prabhupāda: So you guide him with his... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. I told him that you want me to help him in every way, and that there's no doubt we will do that in every way. Prabhupāda: So about that traveling? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Travel exp... I talked to him, and I explained to him that he's taken ten thousand rupees for traveling expenses and twenty*-five thousand rupees books, thirty-five thousand rupees, and he's paid six thousand rupees in two years. I said, "This is not good business." So he said, "Then stop the traveling money." I said, "I'll stop it temporarily. You start paying some money. Then again we can give you the money." I said, "We want to give you the money, but do some business first." So he said, "All right." No, he's pretty pleased to get this big amount now for making this contract. This is a big amount that he got, half a lakh nearly. From this, he can make more profit, and then he'll pay it back by April, and then we'll give him nine thousand rupees free donation. Each of them gets nine thousand rupees as per your original scheme. So they are being looked to nicely. Actually there's no difficulty. They have very few expenses. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? (kavirāja chants viṣṇu-mantra) (Bengali) (Prabhupāda drinks something) Śrīla Prabhupāda? (Hindi-Prabhupāda, Bhakti-caru, and kavirāja) [break] *Prabhupāda: I think whatever money you give Vrindavan for business, he'll spoil. He has already spoiled. They are getting, altogether, about two thousand rupees even without any business*-his mother, one thousand, and they four, 250 each. So let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and eat and sleep. That's all. He has already spoiled. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You can call him. I shall tell him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean that's also my opinion. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I fully agree with you. The fact of the matter is, Śrīla Prabhupāda, he has no head for business. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anything he does, he's going to lose the money. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know that also. Prabhupāda: And his assistant is looting him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He thinks this assistant is his greatest friend. Just like he's leaving on a plane. He's going to arrive Monday morning by eight o'clock in the morning, yet he feels he has to send a telegram to his assistant on a Sunday. I said, "What is the point of sending a telegram? The telegram will reach after you arrive. And even if it doesn't, what is the purpose of sending a telegram?" Prabhupāda: No, no, he has no business friend. He should not be given a farthing. That is my conclusion. And the postal, they should be given to the respective... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As previously planned. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can call him. I shall tell him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I'll just send someone. Practically speaking, when I talk with him, with Vrindavan, I can only think in terms of a charity case, because when I talk to him about business, it's like talking to a young child. He doesn't grasp. I have to tell him the same thing ten times in a row. It's not that he doesn't understand English. He understands English quite all right. But he can't grasp simple business ideas. He's very... He just doesn't have it within him. They should be devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) *Room Conversation-*-October 30, 1977, Våndävana Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...book sales and sells twelve to fifteen thousand rupees a month. It's very nice to see these foreign people coming to Vṛndāvana, having read your books, coming here. It's like a perfect fulfillment of your books. They're so much impressed with the subject matter that they want to see this Vṛndāvana. Especially they have read Kṛṣṇa book. To them Vṛndāvana is like a magical world. Prabhupāda: Hindi book is selling nice. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm*-hm. He said so. *Prabhupāda: Four hundred, five hundred*-no joke. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no joke. That Bengali Back to Godhead is very good also. This one has come out very nice, the layout and everything. It's very good. Prabhupāda: He writes nice. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhakti*-caru? Prabhupāda: No, who has written? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who wrote those articles? *Bhavānanda: Bhakti*-caru and... Bhakti-caru, Sarvabhāvana. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sarvabhāvana and Bhakti*-caru. Bhakti-caru is very literary, poetic type. Bhavānanda: Viśāla said... I was asking him last night. He said that the most difficult people for selling books to are the Bengalis when they come. They're the most difficult. But everyone else, they are more receptive. Prabhupāda: And Gītār Gān is taken, everyone who comes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: Hm. That bābājī was telling. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Bābājī, Kṛṣṇa dāsa. Prabhupāda: He said that "In everyone's hand I see Gītār Gān." Bhavānanda: Yes. (laughs) That's true. They take Gītār Gān and a Bhāgavata Darśana. Śatadhanya: And they're anxious for the next issue. Prabhupāda: They have already published twenty thousand. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty thousand. Very good sale. Good scope in Bengal. Prabhupāda: Hm. Everywhere. Two hundred men already subscribed. If we increase subscribers, many, many... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You like that idea? Prabhupāda: Why not? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When the boys are going village to village, if they get subscriptions, it's good? Prabhupāda: Very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. That's a nice program. Anybody can afford it. What is a yearly subscription to the Bhāgavata Darśana? Bhavānanda: Only one problem with Bhāgavata subscription is theft in the mail. It's very difficult to get it, for it to reach its destination. Prabhupāda: No, they make contact. For twelve rupees they'll get twelve copies. Bhavānanda: When they contact. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: That's good idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean they have to come and collect. Bhavānanda: Yes. They come to the temple few times a year, once a year. They'll get their copies and go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then you have to keep them set aside with the person's name on it? That's not so hard. Just stick the person's name on it. Bhavānanda: Or if someone's going on traveling saṅkīrtana in that area, 'cause we always know where they're going, they can take and deliver if they're going near. No problem. But the magazine is so attractive that the postal clerks, they cannot resist taking it home to their family. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You can get advertisement. But we don't want it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think.... It diminishes the prestige of the publication. By Kṛṣṇa's grace we have no shortage of money. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Have it. So we shall construct a Yoga*-pīṭha Bhaktivedanta Hall. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Yoga*-pīṭha Bhaktivedanta Hall. Bhavānanda: Oh! Prabhupāda: And we have a bookstall there. Make it like that. Bhavānanda: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: For the last fifty years they could not... Bhavānanda: Make. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: Very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the idea of that? *Prabhupāda: They have no shade. What is called? Darśana*-maṇḍapa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't understand. *Bhavānanda: At the yoga*-pīṭha... *Prabhupāda: At yoga*-pīṭha. Bhavānanda: ...when people come for darśana there's no covered area for them. They've been trying to construct for years and years. They've never been able to do. So you have to stand out. If it's raining, what do you do? There's no shelter. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's right. There's nothing there. *Prabhupāda: And Śrīdhara Mahārāja could not finish. He has spent five, ten thousand, I think. Finished. In this way we shall serve Gauḍa*-maṇḍala-bhū... And the interest will come to charity. What is the interest of ten and a half lakhs? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's, every month... One of the... One of the interests for the five lakhs is 4,166 rupees, and the other is 4,666. So that's 8,800 say, times ten is 88,800, plus another sixteen. So about one lakh, five thousand per year. Prabhupāda: That means twelve thousand. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Per month you mean? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, per month, it would be about nine thousand rupees a month. Prabhupāda: No, more. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. One lakh, five thousand, divided by twelve*-a little less than ten thousand a month. Prabhupāda: So you can pay that ten thousand month? Huh? Bhavānanda? Bhavānanda: Yes. Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Do it very conscientiously. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We'll begin with... We'll already have one lakh. So the first year we've already got, to begin with, one lakh of rupees. If you like that idea, to begin with that. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Whenever there is money, spend it. Is that idea all right? *Bhavānanda: Yes. I always am for spending money for projects for Your Divine Grace. I especially like this idea of Yoga*-pīṭha Bhaktivedanta Hall. Very nice. Isn't it, Tamāla? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Yes. It's very nice idea because people come to Māyāpura, they don't only go to our ISKCON temple. Even when they go to other temples, they should have a good impression of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. Prabhupāda: Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā: "Life, money, intelligence, and words." So I am old man. My life has no value. You young men, utilize your... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We may have life, but you have all intelligence, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So life without intelligence... *Prabhupāda: Everyone has got intelligence*-more or less, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, you have complete, and we have practically none. Prabhupāda: No... Bhavānanda: We have no spiritual intelligence. *Prabhupāda: Complete knowledge*-Kṛṣṇa. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya. Complete knowledge can be claimed by Kṛṣṇa, even not by Nārāyaṇa. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Everything is coming. Vedāham. What is that verse? Vedahaṁ sarvāṇi māṁ ca veda na kaścana? The kavirāja went to Pagal Baba? He has praised me very much. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Hm. I think everyone praises you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That is very difficult. You have all taken meals? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. While we were taking, we were thinking that you were seeing us, and we were satisfied. We were thinking that the spiritual master is very much satisfied when he sees his disciples respecting bhāgavata*-prasādam. [break] ...pray, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you recover. You won't have to be bothered now by any more worries of any kind. You simply can translate and see all of the temples and the devotees. It will be very nice. You've never in all these years been able to be free of the worries and anxieties, but now you'll be able to be. Kṛṣṇa may grant you some more years so you can just have nice time with all of your disciples, visiting all the Deities. Like to take a little rest now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. What can I do? (laughs) (scratching sound) Whose hand it is? Whose hand? Bhavānanda: Śatadhanya. Śatadhanya: Is it cold, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Make them warm. Make your hand warm by the stove. Prabhupāda: Somebody's hand is warm, I want. Whose hand? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. Better? Prabhupāda: Where is podda? (?) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your sister. I'm just calling right now. [break] (long pause-Śrīla Prabhupāda is sleeping) ...of the different businesses of Vrindavan? Well, first of all he was getting money for traveling expenses. So I have written a letter to Mr. Bekkar, the manager of the Central Bank of India at Camac Street, informing him that henceforward the interest from the fixed deposits in the name of BBT should be stopped from giving it to Vrinda Book Company, and instead the money should be transferred by mail transfer to the Central Bank of India, Gwalior Tank Road, to BBT account. I gave all the details. That's one letter. Then furthermore, I also addressed a letter to the Punjab National Bank, Brabourn Road, informing them that the Rs. 500 should be stopped from being given to Shrimati Radharani De, because... I didn't mention this, but the reason is that she'll be getting one thousand rupees from Indian Overseas Bank. And I'm sending that letter... Prabhupāda: Oh... Has Indian Overseas arranged? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Let me explain what I was going to say. The letter to Punjab Bank I have not sent to the bank. Rather, I have sent it to Girirāja and informed him that when the Indian Overseas Bank sends their first transfer of Rs. 1000, then he may send the letter to Punjab Bank regarding Radharani De. In other words, when we first get it confirmed... Prabhupāda: Why not Punjab National Bank, as they are sending, let them send and ask Overseas five hundred? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, because we've already given them a scheme which accounts for everybody. Better to have the whole thing done in a very organized way from one bank, rather than a little here, a little from there. That is simply confusing. Besides that, the... It's just a lot simpler, you know, if we do it this way. That is my opinion, because we've already given a scheme to Indian Overseas. We've put fixed deposits worth a certain amount which bring one thousand rupees interest. So now, if we have to tell them a whole new scheme, then it becomes confusion. It's easier simply to inform the Punjab Bank to discontinue sending the five hundred rupees. Prabhupāda: And unless they send, Overseas... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. I am not sending a letter to Punjab Bank. The letter is being sent to Girirāja with the clear instruction on cover letter, "Only send this letter to Punjab Bank after you have it confirmed that they have begun to dispatch Rs. 1000 per month." The same way we did for Sulakshman De. When we stopped sending it from here and we began sending from Bombay, we only told them to stop when it had begun to be sent from another bank. In other words, she'll get the money first from Indian Overseas before the other payment's stopped. Prabhupāda: So how she will get? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rs. 1000 per month. Prabhupāda: How? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A transfer from Indian Overseas Bank to her account in Bank of..., I think it's in United Bank of India, direct into her account. Her account is joint signature of herself and Vrindavan*-candra. Prabhupāda: Oh. So she is informed? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. All of them are informed. Then I've also sent a letter to the Central Bank of India*-again I'm not sending it to Central Bank; *I've given it to Girirāja*-that when they start to get the 250 rupees a month from Indian Overseas, then we will stop sending the 250 from Central Bank of India. In other words, everything will be done from one bank, right on our land. It's a lot easier to deal with this way. It's much cleaner. Then... Let me see what else. I also sent a letter to M.M. De today. I requested him to please tell me what his bank account number is. I also... He's dealing with most of the business of Panchashil flat. According to Vrindavan-candra, M.M. deals with these matters. Apparently he has a little more legal mind. Probably he's more intelligent. Anyway... Prabhupāda: No, who? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: M.M. De. So in my letter to him I explained to him... I enclosed a copy of the conveyance draft, and I requested him that as far as I was concerned, the draft was all right, but that he should check up with some of the other flat owners. If they executed a similar conveyance, please inform me, and then we will do as they have done. I also told him that whatever taxes or other things which he pays should be paid in your name, and receipts should be gotten in your name, and copies of the receipts he can please send me for my records. And I also wrote to him that regarding the permanent electricity supply, if the four of them together pay half of the amount, then as soon as they send me the receipt, then I will send a check for the other half. Those were the points I wrote in the letter to him. What I'm going to do is, as soon as I get this amendment done which mentions about the misspending, not to misspend the money*-squandering clause-then I will send a copy of that along with a letter, explaining to them how each one of them will be getting Rs. 250, and then after seven years, you know, the bigger amount. And then I will send them a copy of that squandering clause with that, saying, "But you should not squander this money. It must be invested in fixed deposits or government bonds. Otherwise your monthly pension will be stopped and it will be given to Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity." I'm only going to do that after I get the amendment clause finished. So like that, everything was done, and I finished all of that business today. Also I wrote a letter to Dr. Ghosh, telling him that whatever money he advances we will match, again repeating our offer that we have two rooms ready. And I also mentioned to him how... He mentioned how he was a little disappointed with his discussions. I said that is not so surprising, because our Gurukula is ultimately meant for spiritual education, not otherwise, and we're only going to give a little basic hygiene teaching. I said, "Mainly now you should take up this dispensary. We are very eager for that." And again I invited him to come here soon. And I gave him a report of your health. And I also sent a letter to Bank of America in Los Angeles for transferring six hundred dollars to Prabhaviṣṇu in Nepal, because each month we have to give him that money so he can stay there and work there nicely. And then I did some other letters to Punjab Bank in Delhi to the head office, telling them that the interest... For now the interest from those fixed deposits we'll have credited to your account here. And once we have the first meeting of the Bhaktivedanta Charity Trust..., Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust, we'll open a bank account, probably in Māyāpura or Swarup Ganj. Prabhupāda: Why not open the Charity Trust account in Delhi? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Delhi? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I would think that for operating it, it would be a lot more... My idea was that it would be better to have it in the Māyāpura area itself, since it is primarily meant for spending... It is meant entirely for spending in Gauḍa*-maṇḍala-bhūmi. My idea is that we would open the account in Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi area and give instruction to... Prabhupāda: Gaura (indistinct) area where? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, right now our bank accounts are in Swarup Ganj, Bhavānanda Mahārāja? Bhavānanda: We have in Swarup Ganj and Navadvīpa and Krishnanagar. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I felt we would open it in either Swarup Ganj or Navadvīpa. Bhavānanda: Navadvīpa is good banks. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Navadvīpa. And give the standing instruction at that time to Parliament Street bank to transfer every month the interest. That was my idea. But for the time being we have to tell them what to do with the interest. So I thought instead of going to the botheration of opening new accounts at the Punjab Bank at Parliament Street, let them go on transferring it to your accounts here. And then, when we open the Charity Trust account, then I'll give them a fresh instruction. Prabhupāda: What...? The... In the Punjab National Bank, fixed deposits in the name of? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fixed deposits are in the name of... Five lakhs are in the name of Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma Temple Maintenance account, and five lakhs, sixty thousand in the name of Māyāpura-Vṛndāvana Trust. Prabhupāda: Oh. So where they will kept? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The interest or the fixed deposits? The fixed deposits are in Delhi, and the interest, for now, for the next few months, I am instructing the bank to continue to transfer to the accounts here in Vṛndāvana that it's always been given to. Then when the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust account is opened, I will issue a fresh instruction to the Parliament Street bank that the interest money should be transferred to that account in Navadvīpa or wherever we open the account. My idea was simply that since the money is to be spent in Gauḍa*-maṇḍala-bhūmi, then when we write checks out, etcetera, from that account, it's much easier to encash it rather than having to go to Delhi for encashment. *Prabhupāda: No, why Gauḍa*-maṇḍala-bhūmi? Whenever needed... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, you said that the purpose of the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust was for development of Gauḍa*-maṇḍala-bhūmi. That was your original... At least that's what you initially told us. Prabhupāda: Mm. Which is better? Which is better? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That it should be just for Gauḍa*-maṇḍala-bhūmi or general? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I think it's better for Gauḍa*-maṇḍala-bhūmi. Because for general, we have ISKCON. For general, we have the... I'll explain, Śrīla Prabhupāda. For general, the GBC has formed the Māyāpura-Vṛndāvana Committee. That is more or less... Your original name of it was Māyāpura-Vṛndāvana Trust. So we've formed a Māyāpura-Vṛndāvana Committee made up of the following seven people: Jayapatākā Mahārāja, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu, Girirāja, myself, Rāmeśvara, and Gurukṛpā Mahārāja and Ātreya Ṛṣi. so these seven meet, and they divide up the money that comes from all the interest of the fixed deposits in India, and they will recommend how that money should be spent. Once a year they will consider at Māyāpura all the different requests from Bhuvaneśvara, from Māyāpura, from Bombay, from Vṛndāvana, everywhere, and they will divide up the interest accordingly. So the Bhaktivedanta Charity Trust could be simply for the Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi area. That was my idea. Prabhupāda: Whichever suitable. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Which is suitable. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think the general is already covered by this Māyāpura*-Vṛndāvana Trust committee. That's for all of India. And Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi is especially for encouraging the development of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism in that area-Śrīdhara Mahārāja's nātha-mandira, this Yoga-pīṭha Bhaktivedanta Hall. Different buildings. Supposing one of your Godbrothers may have written some manuscript, he has no money. We can print some books for him so he can sell them, like that, works within the Māyāpura area. Prabhupāda: That we shall fix up, what to spend. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity trustees would fix that up? Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: All right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know if I'm understanding your desires about all of these points. Prabhupāda: No. My point is that all this interest will go for charity. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "All of the interest" means from all of the different fixed deposits or from these ten lakhs, sixty thousand? Just like we have... I'll give you an example. In Bombay we have that Māyāpura*-Vṛndāvana Trust fixed deposits in Bank of America. So those are big amount. So those fixed deposits and other fixed deposits, that money, I was thinking, would be decided by that Māyāpura-Vṛndāvana Trust committee. Because those are all ISKCON men. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Madhusūdana Mahārāja, Mādhava Mahārāja, they may decide for the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust with the other five of us. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: All right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think your prasādam is here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All right. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How do you feel that this kavirāja's medicine is affecting, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Can you feel a change or... Prabhupāda: Yesterday I felt some. But this massage is always... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Massage is always welcome. Perhaps this might be a nice time to call Jayādvaita and Pradyumna. Do you feel like speaking and hearing about *Bhāgavatam*? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have no objection if they come? Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I'll arrange for them to come, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We haven't heard from Tenth Canto in a few days. That would be nice, I think. [break] Jayādvaita: ...sent me an urgent telegram asking me to send the book manuscript and also to pick up another manuscript that he'd sent. So I went for... He told me to go for three days and not to come back to Vṛndāvana until it was done. But I went for one day. But I heard that I inconvenienced you because you couldn't translate that night. I'm sorry that I held up the work. That anthology book of different articles written by Your Divine Grace, I think that will come out very nicely. That's what Rāmeśvara was having me send him. Prabhupāda: Anthology? *Jayādvaita: It's a collection-Rāmeśvara mentioned it while you were here, while he was here*-a collection of different articles from Back to Godhead written by yourself. There's your conversation with Professor Kotovsky, and also from the old BTG you were publishing in India there's that article "Relevant Inquiries." That's very wonderful article. Your correspondence with Dr. Stahl, that's also there. And lectures from different places. When you first arrived in London there's a very wonderful lecture. So many wonderful articles that have been published over the years in BTG. But the real thing is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) [break] Covering. Śatadhanya: Yes, Prabhupāda. Do you like heavy cover? [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...(indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. He should not have come in touch, in the material qualities. And in Prema*-vivarta it is said, Svarūpa Dāmodara: You know the verse? Śatadhanya: Which one? Prabhupāda: You can find out. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's from the *Gītā*? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Guṇa, guṇa. *Prabhupāda: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi bhuṅkte tad-guṇān [Bg. 13.22]. You? find out? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, he's bringing. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Svarūpa Dāmodara: (Bengali) Śatadhanya: Prabhupāda: Is it clear? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. So in that sense, matter is also life, but covered. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the philosophy of acintya*-bhedābheda-tattvam... Prabhupāda: Matter is also energy. It is also energy. As energy, they are one. But have... They have differentiated in different... Is it clear? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: The... Except spirit, other things are superficial, but they are there. Prakṛti*-stha. So his fault is to come in touch with the matter. Just like we are cleansing. The stool is also part of the body, but we are cleaning. Is it clear? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Stool is not required. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (pause) Yes, the example of the flower bud is nice. I can understand it better now. *Prabhupāda: Kṣīṇe puṇye punar martya*-lokaṁ viśanti. By association of pāpa-puṇya, he suffers or enjoys. When the enjoyment is finished, he again falls down with vṛṣṭi and... Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Then, from water, again grows. Very troublesome business. Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...is like this, that he thinks both are the same? Prabhupāda: He thinks, but it... It is not the fact. Svarūpa Dāmodara: One is covered consciousness, matter. So it is inferior. Prabhupāda: The covering matter is inferior. Śatadhanya: How the Māyāvādī thinks that he can..., that the material energy is false when at every step he's baffled by the material energy? Prabhupāda: That is his foolishness. Therefore Kṛṣṇa instructs, but he does not take. He wants to remain in māyā and at the same time claim that he is liberated. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also, modern science tries to compromise... I'm sorry: Māyāvādīs try to compromise with modern science. Prabhupāda: There is no other way. They cannot make a solution, so they must try to make a compromise. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Just like when we say that spiritual atom or ātmā is innumerable in numbers, they immediately come up. *Prabhupāda: Sa anantyāya kalpate. As there are many molecules in the sunshine, similarly*-yasya prabhā [Bs. 5.40]-by..., in the effulgence of God there are so many molecules, or spiritual spark. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also, even it makes stronger now, that within the atom, if there is a jīva or life which is not developed, so it will be many more, innumerable. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. That is the difficulty. They do not want to take śāstra as it is. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to interpret according to their whims. Śatadhanya: And they want to adjust it according to the time. Prabhupāda: And that is Māyāvāda. [break] ...superficially Caitanya Mahāprabhu also a Māyāvādī. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. That was confirmed when He was talking like that. Just like Carl Jung... He's a psychologist. He says that matter is a concept, some sort of imagination that one has in his mind, something like that idea that these Māyāvādīs... They think this is not real. Prabhupāda: It is not real in this sense: because the spirit is there, therefore it is there. Because there is consciousness, there is ignorance, covering. And if you stop this ignorance, then consciousness is there, pure. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When the consciousness is undeveloped, looks like dead body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: In a living body, in a living cell, actually it is made up of innumerable lives. But among these innumerable lives, the jīva, who is... Prabhupāda: He's a particular individual. In the body... Just like you are in this room. When you leave this room, the room becomes vacant, but there are innumerable other jīvas. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But different consciousness. So among these innumerable lives making this whole living body, there is one which is highly... Prabhupāda: Particular. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Conscious. Śatadhanya: Who permeates that body. Prabhupāda: And we can experience. There are so many germs within the body. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when that most conscious jīva leaves the body, still, the body is made up of those innumerable lives, but whose consciousness developed, that we call a dead matter. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not dead matter. They come out. As soon as the body is decomposed, they come out. You cannot say that the life*-giving substance is gone. It is there. [break] ...this boy. *Bhakti*-caru: No, no. I had a talk with him. He's not really depending on him. I asked him. He said that it's always better to train up..., to have someone around who's seeing how he is treating. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why? If he's around, why is it better to have someone else? *Bhakti*-caru: He's says that just... Anyway, he'll come and explain it to you. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know what he's going to explain. He can't explain anything except that he wants to leave this boy in his place. That's the real point. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm saying that the real point is that we don't want this boy to take the place of this kavirāja, which is what the kavirāja is planning. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes, right. But the thing is that kavirāja can't stay for more than five days. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's all right, but this is the point, that this boy is not a replacement for this kavirāja. The fact is that Prabhupāda's condition being the way it is, we can't depend on the fact that Prabhupāda will continue to get exactly better as the kavirāja plans. *Bhakti*-caru: Then what do you think the alternative should be? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The alternative is that either the kavirāja should stay here, or if we feel this kavirāja is actually giving beneficial help, then we should go with him. But I don't think that we should put ourselves in the hands of this junior man. Prabhupāda: That is right conclusion. *Bhakti*-caru: None of us... As soon as we saw him, we didn't even like his looks. *Bhakti*-caru: But the kavirāja doesn't want that Prabhupāda should move. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he should stay here if he doesn't want it. What will you do if, supposing after three days after the kavirāja leaves, suddenly Prabhupāda's condition changes in such a way that it wasn't counted on. Then what will be done at that time? Then it means that this junior man suddenly has to give diagnosis and treatment? *Bhakti*-caru: That's the best. I mean if he stays here, then there is nothing... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If he can't stay here, then he should help to take Prabhupāda to Māyāpura. And actually that will make him very responsible, because then he'll see that Prabhupāda is taking risk simply to be under his care. So that will make him feel even more obligated to take proper care of Śrīla Prabhupāda even after going to Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: This is the right conclusion. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) He does not agree. Then? Bhavānanda: Agree to remain? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. He... He'll either agree to remain or else we'll make him agree to take you to Māyāpura. Probably by our refusing to accept this assistant, it will induce him to stay here a little bit longer to prepare you for the journey, and then he'll take you to Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: Journey, what is the difficulty? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't find any difficulty. I didn't find any difficulty one week ago. I'm prepared to take you anywhere in the world, in any condition. I don't think that there's so much difficulty. I see how we're putting you on the palanquin. Prabhupāda: Bhavānanda? Bhavānanda: I also agree with Tamāla, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's ten of us. Bhavānanda Mahārāja, Śatadhanya Mahārāja, Upendra, myself, Svarūpa Dāmodara, Jayādvaita, Yadubara, Adri*-dhāraṇa, Bhakti-caru, and one kavirāja. It is a proper entourage for a king. Prabhupāda: I am prepared also. How many hours it will take altogether? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By plane? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It will take three hours to the Delhi airport. Then it will take..., say, three hours, then one hour before take*-off is four hours. Two hours on the flight is six hours, and three hours to Māyāpura, total... Bhavānanda: No. Four hours to Māyāpura, 'cause we'll go slow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, within ten hours from this bed to your bed in Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: Ten hours? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maximum. Prabhupāda: How ten hours? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three hours from here to the Delhi airport. One hour at the Delhi airport makes four hours. Prabhupāda: You are going to Delhi airport in three hours. Then? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then one hour waiting for the plane to take off. That's four hours. Two hours for the plane. That's six hours. And three to four hours to go to Māyāpura. Three hours to go to Māyāpura. Bhavānanda: It always takes four hours. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (to Bhavānanda:) But that's four hours from the Calcutta temple, not from Dum Dum. No, I'm telling you, you don't have to go through Calcutta at all. Bhavānanda: It only takes half an hour to get to the airport, and we'll go slow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then four hours from the Calcutta airport to Māyāpura. Total of ten hours. Prabhupāda: Four hours? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I'm arguing this point with Bhavānanda Mahārāja, but he insists that he knows, so I'm accepting his statement. Three to four hours. Bhavānanda: Because the road is... *Bhakti*-caru: Yes, it's not so good now. Bhavānanda: So if you go too fast, then it's too bumpy. If you go slow, then it's reasonable. Prabhupāda: So let us go. And keep me in the open air. (pause) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The main thing is that we must present it to the kavirāja that we are depending on his care. If you actually feel this kavirāja to be good and helpful, then we must present it in such a way that "We fully depend upon your treatment. Therefore, as you... We cannot depend on any junior man, because there may be complications at any time. Therefore, when you feel Prabhupāda is ready, you take us to Māyāpura. And if your other business in Calcutta is so pressing, then take us now." And in that way he'll be forced to feel responsible, because he'll see that we are going on his account. Prabhupāda: Talk like that. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I won't be able to... I'll talk, but they'll have to translate. Bhakti*-caru has to translate. Or Adri-dhāraṇa. *Bhavānanda: Adri*-dhāraṇa. *Adri*-dhāraṇa: He said he's now made it his personal problem. He's taking a personal interest. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Adri*-dhāraṇa is here. He says the kavirāja is taking it as his personal problem, your health, as his personal interest. *Adri*-dhāraṇa: Today he's going to go six hours himself and wait for the medicine to be prepared. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's going to prepare it, I think. *Adri*-dhāraṇa: He's going to go and sit and watch it being prepared, six hours, so no mistake is made. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Adri*-dhāraṇa Prabhu says that today the kavirāja is going to Mathurā, and he will sit six hours watching the medicine being distilled. He's personally going to watch to see so that there's absolutely no mistake made. This is required. Bhavānanda: This man is competent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I may not be an expert judge, but I have never seen, in my opinion, anyone who seemed to be this good. Prabhupāda: No, if we have program to go to Māyāpura, he has got that distilled medicine in his dispensary. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but one thing is this: the more time we can gain in waiting here, the better. In other words, he's not going to stay here indefinitely. That's a fact. He's going to have to go within the next few days. *Adri*-dhāraṇa: He's planning to leave tomorrow. But we can hold him off for two more days. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can hold him because, no doubt about it, the few extra days we gain will give you a little added strength. The main thing is that you should be feeling some positive effect from his treatments, because ultimately that is the real deciding factor. Our opinion of him.... He may be very nice looking, but if the medicine works, that is what counts. Bhavānanda: Of course, we don't know, but we're all feeling that you're feeling some effect. You told me the other night. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should be tangibly felt. It should be some actual, tangible result. You should have more strength, sitting up on your own or something of this kind. Then I'll believe that you're actually feeling better, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Because otherwise, psychologically, one may feel himself better, but then that should manifest in being able to sit up or something of that kind, turn around in bed on one's own. Prabhupāda: Do you think I am able to do that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I'm encouraging you. I don't know if you can do it. *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Now I cannot sit up independently. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Of course, that's a big step to take, but there's things like turning over in bed on one's own. I mean the point is one should not have to force oneself to do this, but those will be the signs of actual improvement. Bhavānanda: But that will only come from renewal of strength. And renewal of strength will only come from appetite, when you start eating. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it's not artificial. Prabhupāda: Eating only juice. *Bhakti*-caru: Milk... (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Juice is for maintaining. It's not for improving the condition. Juice you can maintain one's life, but to actually get strength you have to take something more substantial than juice. Milk is one thing, of course. *Bhakti*-caru: Kavirāja is stressing on milk and barley. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The kavirāja said he had some cough medicine to put in the milk. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. Yes. He gave it to me yesterday. But last night I didn't want to give the milk. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what about now? *Bhakti*-caru: Milk hasn't come. Next I will give. Say after about an hour. Now I will feed him the orange juice and... Bhavānanda: Maybe after parikrama. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) [break] How many plane go from Delhi? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a... Delhi, there's two flights. One is in the morning, and the other one is in the evening. Morning flight is at about six*-thirty in the morning, six-forty in the morning, and the evening flight is quite late, about eight o'clock at night. We would want to take the morning flight. (end) *Pañca*-draviḍa: Now only one thing is needed, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Pañca*-draviḍa: To have you sitting on the vyāsāsana and preaching like a lion. Prabhupāda: Yes, I wanted to say something. Let us see. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We had no father, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. *Pañca*-draviḍa: And no money also. (laughing) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. We were vagabonds. We were loitering in the street, and you invited us into your home. That's actually a fact. You fed us prasādam, cooked for us. You taught us how to be human beings. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Just like these Gurukula kids. You have also taught us even how to dress ourself. Jayādvaita: And you brought us to Vṛndāvana, richest place. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Full of desire trees and jewels. Prabhupāda: You can provide five hundred students very easily. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Such a nice building. Who would not like to go to school here in Vṛndāvana? Nice, pure atmosphere. [break] (Bengali) Śatadhanya: ...Vrindavan, he's going to Delhi. From Delhi he'll go to Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, Vrindavan. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Vrindavan De: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Where is the money? (Bengali) We cannot put fire in the flesh. (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Upendra, you should get Prabhupāda ready, because the parikrama's ready. [break] Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Little swelling around the... Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a little swelling today here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, around the eye. And the hands are kind of swollen. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What's that, Bhakti*-caru? *Bhakti*-caru: When the skin sags, that means that it's... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Going away. Yeah, but here it's... *Bhakti*-caru: I was telling him that it comes and goes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it comes and goes. But in the eye it's very much today. *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali with kavirāja) Did he pass stool day before yesterday? Very little in the morning. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only a little. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I think the kavirāja had a dream last night. (to kavirāja:) You had a dream. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation with kavirāja and Bhakti*-caru about milk, Horlicks, coughing, etc.) *Bhakti*-caru: There's another Ayurvedic physician in Raṅgajī's temple. He's going to arrange for that. Yesterday he already asked him. And he'll be coming today also. (Bengali and Hindi for long period) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Your Godbrothers Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī and Ānanda Prabhu, they are here. You want to see them? Also somebody told me that Bon Mahārāja has returned to Vṛndāvana. Is there any reason to call him here? Prabhupāda: If he likes, he can come. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. We don't have to invite him to come. He knows you're here. So he should come of his own accord if he wants. Okay. (conversation continues in Bengali) Śrīla Prabhupāda? I just now can't find Kṛṣṇa dāsa. I'll continue to look. I just saw him about ten minutes ago, when I came back. Maybe he's walking around. If I find him then I'll send him. I'll continue to look for him. (conversation continues in Bengali*-visit of Śrīla Prabhupāda's Godbrothers) Upendra: This is from The Statesman, 24th October? 22nd. *Bhakti*-caru: (reads Statesman article to Prabhupāda's Godbrothers) [break] (Bengali) *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, I also gave a lecture on the life in its origin. In Mathurā there is one veterinary college, the biggest in Asia, about two hundred scholars. We also showed "Hare Kṛṣṇa Frontier," "Spiritual Frontier" movies. They liked very much. And we're having another lecture Thursday to be given by Thompson in All*-India Institute of Medical Sciences. There will be about some two hundred, three hundred scholars from around Delhi. We'll be discussing about life in its origin. And also we are planning to give several lecture in Delhi University, in the mathematics, biology and physics departments. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have also written books like this. This is a... (Bengali) This is our worldwide preaching program. *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) No sentiment-"Come on"*-scientific challenge. (Bengali) No theory. (Bengali-Prabhupāda telling about Dr. Kapoor and scientific conference, Fiji, etc.) (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here is Kṛṣṇa-kāliya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Ah. Jaya. (more Bengali conversation) What is that? *Śatadhanya: Well, this is the Bhāgavata*-darśana in Bengali. *Prabhupāda: (Bengali conversation, with devotees showing Godbrothers various news*-clippings, books, etc.) [break] Just get the curtain and try for urine. You read. Śatadhanya: Yes, Prabhupāda. It's set, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Room Conversation With Çré Näräyaëa and Räma*-Kåñëa Bajaj--October 31, 1977, Våndävana Śrī Nārāyaṇa: But are you feeling better, Swamiji? Prabhupāda: Yes. Little, little. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Little better. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Therefore always two attendants, and they are taking care. Otherwise personally I would not... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, please sit down. It's all right. It's here for you to sit, so you can... Śrī Nārāyaṇa: I don't want you to talk loudly. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you sit down. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can sit here. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: I'm very glad to see you here. (Hindi) So, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Who has got these films, you can... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I'm going to arrange it with Akṣayānanda Mahārāja. The temple has everything here. Prabhupāda: Call Akṣayānanda Mahārāja. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Just see our activities all over the world. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: South Africa. Is it not South Africa? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Why don't you show them the South African report? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...slaughterhouse... (Hindi conversation) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a temple that was built there. We have a big farm there as well as two temples. This is one of the temples. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Where in South Africa? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Near Durban. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Near Durban. Ācchā. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they had fifteen thousand people attending at the Janmāṣṭamī celebration. Here you see some go*-pūjā. (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Without culture they're suffering. If you want to mitigate their sufferings, give this Gītā culture. That is my experience. (Hindi) We have sold this Caitanya*-caritāmṛta even in Russian countries. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Russian countries. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here are some of our African publications, Śrīla Prabhupāda, published in Swahili. Prabhupāda: African, Chinese, Japanese. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: This is really humanitarian. *Rāma*-Kṛṣṇa: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: When I go for parikrama? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eight*-thirty in the morning, generally. Then all of the participants can have darśana and we also have the darśana of the Deities at that time. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Deity also. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...so we can influence whole world. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We got report that the recent printing of the Bhagavad*-gītā will be sold out by June. One million five hundred thousand copies will have been sold in about ten months' time. Fifteen lakhs were sold in ten months just in the United States. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Standing orders was..., I think it was three thousand standing orders. Prabhupāda: Three thousand or five thousand... (Hindi) Three thousand eight hundred. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three thousand at fifty rupees each. *Bhakti*-caru: Eight hundred rupees a set times three thousand. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) I increased my duration of life according to horoscope (Hindi) ...this feeble condition... (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here is Akṣayānanda Mahārāja, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Ah, Akṣayānanda Mahārāja... Akṣayānanda: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: The film and... What happened to...? Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) I do not know. What, what happened to the Hindu...? Śrī Nārāyaṇa: What is the latest about the Bombay temple (Hindi)? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We haven't heard anything in the last two or three months, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This telegram came from the former mayor*-Ganatra? Rajiv Ganatra? He wrote, "Pray God to give you long life to spread Indian culture in every nook and corner of the universe." *Rāma*-Kṛṣṇa: That is the feeling of all, everybody. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: That is Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyate (Hindi) Para*-upakāra. This is the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, para-upakāra. Especially those who have taken birth in India... Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The main thing we saw today, Prabhupāda passed more urine than ever before, and very clear*-colored. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: The telephone is out of order. He was wondering... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whether we got the reservations? *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is that? *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda shouldn't speak so much. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew. Yes. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Slowly but surely. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: He's saying it's impossible, that he had cough today, and tomorrow there is no sign of it. So these are all Śrīla Prabhupāda's pastimes, his own doings. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: In the morning you have to save the urine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which time? The latest possible one. 'Cause he passes urine sometimes two times in the morning. *Bhakti*-caru: For last few days, at times he's passing at four o'clock and then again at about six o'clock. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So which one of those two? *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Where is the conference? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It will be in the Gurukula building at two o'clock tomorrow afternoon. (Hindi) Śrīla Prabhupāda, you also ate a little bit of vegetable, and you said there was a little taste today. You can tell him. Some vegetable. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (Hindi) 500 cc, urine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Ayurvedic science is very perfect. But the difficulty is that until now we could not find a doctor who understood the science. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did he say? Svarūpa Dāmodara: He said that the difficulty is to make the medicine. It takes time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's... Kavirāja: Kidney, it is special. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is for kidney, special. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew. What is it made from? Śrīla Prabhupāda, Shastriji has made very nice medicine for you, very, very nice. What is that from? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Twenty*-two ingredients. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Distilled. No one will take the time anymore these days. How is it given? How is this given? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Drink. One once, one dose. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew. This is the science. This is real medicine. It took him seven, eight hours, twenty*-two ingredients distilled. He has to distill the water first. Twenty-two ingredients. Kavirāja: (Hindi) (Prabhupāda drinks medicine) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is for the kidneys? *Kavirāja: (Hindi) Vṛkka*-sañjīvanī. (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: Vṛkka. V-ṛ-k-k-a. Kidney. The Sanskrit name for kidney is vṛkka. Araka(?) means extract, and sañjīva... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What does that mean? Extractive. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. Extract, to revitalize the kidney. No, our medicine for revitalizing the kidney. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like a little soft kīrtana? Prabhupāda: No. Now let me take rest. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Take rest. Okay, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) *Room Conversation-*-October 31, 1977, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Hm? What do you think? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well it's hard to... I could not follow everything because it was in Hindi. Prabhupāda: Mm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He talks a lot. Of course Marwaris always talk a lot. He's a Marwari so they always talk like that. We'll have to see how his medicine works Śrīla Prabhupāda. There's no way to tell. We are always getting fooled. The first impression simply by seeing is very difficult in this age, I would rather... Prabhupāda: No, this is the last we have tried. So let us follow him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh yeah, definitely we should try his medicines. Prabhupāda: Adri? *Adri*-dharaṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, what is that? Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: You give him some hint. He was going to talk and you stopped him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Going to what? Prabhupāda: (Hindi) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (to Adri*-dharaṇa:) Does he have a big practice in Calcutta? *Adri*-dharaṇa: Yes, very big practice. He is known for his quality, mixing of drugs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Acchā. Big practice in Calcutta. *Adri*-dharaṇa: On the plane he met another doctor and he chastised him for making diluted drugs. So it seems... *Prabhupāda: Huh? Adri*-dharaṇa? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that on the plane he met another doctor so he chastised that other doctor for making diluted drugs. He's known for his upstanding qualities in the mixing of drugs purely. *Adri*-dharaṇa: Everything he makes, he claims that he makes by the hand. And he's also recommended by another Rāmānuja āyur-veda. Actually we had gone to see him there and he said to approach this man. He said this is the best man in the field. Prabhupāda: Who is that man? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is the other man? *Adri*-dharaṇa: That man, Govardhanaji, he is on (indistinct) street, and he was recommended by L. N. Bangor. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who, the other one? *Adri*-dharaṇa: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he would not come. *Adri*-dharaṇa: No, he said that "You need the best man for this," and he said, he recommended him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That other one, Govardhanaji, he was a Rāmānuja? *Adri*-dharaṇa: Also Rāmānuja, but not so staunch as this man. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: L. N. Bangor recommended another one but that other one, when Adri*-dharaṇa went there, the other one recommended this one saying this one is better. And Adri-dharaṇa said this one is more staunch. *Adri*-dharaṇa: And when I came he was very, he had many good Vaiṣṇava qualities. Immediately he said, "This is for Guruji, for a devotees. I am not take anything, I'll do all my services free." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a good quality. *Adri*-dharaṇa: Actually when he flies and... Prabhupāda: How long... (?) This is a last resort. Whatever it may be. Is that all right? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, we don't mind going on looking one after another for... *Prabhupāda: Huh. No more, no more trial. Adri*-dharaṇa? *Adri*-dharaṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What do you think? *Adri*-dharaṇa: About this man? Prabhupāda: Yes. Follow strictly. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you agree that we should follow strictly his advice? *Adri*-dharaṇa: From my experience I think he's a very good man. He's a Vaiṣṇava. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We certainly have... We might as well try. We've tried everyone else. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So let us try. Bhavānanda: He did agree with your own diagnosis, Prabhupāda. He said makaradhvaja at this point would be poison and today you said that it was poison. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: So that was... Prabhupāda: Mm. Mm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Satadhanya asks whether he looks like the man you saw in the dream. Prabhupāda: He has tilaka? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he has nice tilaka. Prabhupāda: (indistinct). The other man, he has nice tilaka? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Govardhanaji has tilaka? *Adri*-dharaṇa: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Adri*-dharaṇa: Also Govardhanaji was not very, extremely helpful. He said he would not come to Vṛndāvana. He said he would not... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now this man said in fifteen days Prabhupāda would be better. *Adri*-dharaṇa: He said there will be improvement, in a few days, two or three days there will be improvement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So he's staying for two or three days at least? Or is he going to stay one day and leave? *Adri*-dharaṇa: So he is not... His mind is not made up. I'll have to talk to him and ask him to stay longer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Let him first of all prescribe. *Adri*-dharaṇa: Medicine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he should stay to see what the effect of the medicine is. Supposing he prescribes and it has a reverse reaction, then if he's gone how will he see anything? Prabhupāda: No, whatever chart he has made, he'll follow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we can follow but if it has a bad reaction, you'll want to change it, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We can't say that we'll follow blindly. If something is given and it doesn't work properly, you'll want to have it adjusted. Better if he stays here for some time with you. *Adri*-dharaṇa: At least some days. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At least for a few days he should stay here and see how the medicine is working. Prabhupāda: Hm, first of all let him make chart. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, of course. No, that's right. First he should make prescription and then we'll see. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So Adri, you should go with him. You are staying in that room? *Adri*-dharaṇa: Yes, I'm staying with him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So why don't you go? I told him to go, be with the Kavirāja. Prabhupāda: Mm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's staying in the same room with him. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They gave him the governor's room, that number thirty*-one, the big room. Śrīla Prabhupāda, may I talk to you about Vrindavan Candra? Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I had a little talk with him, you know. Prabhupāda: Ha. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 'Cause you're giving him about, he gets about 800 rupees a month from the BBT for travel expenses. Prabhupāda: Mm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I have some experience with myself as organizing books distribution. Prabhupāda: Hm, hm. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So when we would spend with our Rādhā*-Dāmodara party, we used to spend about five thousand dollars a month for travel expenses, but for that five thousand dollars we would make a hundred thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In other words twenty times whatever we spent on travelling... Prabhupāda: And if he does not give substantial order then stop it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he's not giving any order. I mean the point I made to him was that... Prabhupāda: Then don't give. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I told him, "Vrindavan, you're netting 800 rupees so for that 800 rupees you must be booking ten to twenty thousand rupees worth of orders." Prabhupāda: So if he's not giving, then stop it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I said to him if you're getting ten to twenty thousand, either, two things are happening, either you're not getting the orders, then what is the use of spending 800 rupees? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or the other thing is that you're getting the orders but you're not giving any money to the BBT. Prabhupāda: Then be satisfied with stipends, two hundred, three hundred, live in that house and then like that nothing wrong. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have no objection to paying him if he was doing business but... Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I just see he's not doing it. Prabhupāda: I fully depend on your discrimination. I, if he's not giving bill then just stop it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I told him that if you do business, you take the 800 rupees but doing business means you'll pay the BBT some bills. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you're not paying any bills it means you're not doing business. He is... Prabhupāda: Very carefully the... I want they may not... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Squander. Prabhupāda: ...suffer for want of stipend and place. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Do like that and I fully depend on you. If he's not giving business what is the use of? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is spen... I think he's just taking the money and using it for some other business. He can't be spending 800 rupees and not doing any business. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And if he's spending the 800 for travelling and not booking order then what is the use of spending the 800 rupees? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tell him frankly. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then stop everything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I told him. I said, "You think about it tonight and tomorrow we'll talk again." Prabhupāda: Hm. Hm. Do everything very cautiously. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: It is not that out of affection we shall squander money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mm. Prabhupāda: So use your best intelligence and if he has not given then stop everything, let them have 250 per month per head and live in that house. That's all. This is my final. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two hundred fifty plus we have to fix seven hundred fifty. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For seven years. Prabhupāda: That is after. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seven years. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is after. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. Prabhupāda: Not a single paisa more than two hundred fifty. Only my wife may get five hundred, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She's getting a thousand actually. Prabhupāda: Hm. (pause) So take his chart and try to follow. This is the last resort. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Well, don't say it is the last. We're not going to ever going to give up hope. Prabhupāda: Hm. He appears to be hopeful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He seems very hopeful, his attitude appeared hopeful. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They all say that your heart is very strong, therefore what is the question of dying? They all say that point. Their whole contention is on the heart, that because the heart is strong, they say there's no question of dying. And actually that agrees with the astrologers. None of the astrologers say you will die now. They all say it's a difficult time but they never say that you will die now. Prabhupāda: Hm, hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They all say that you'll overcome this. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And your disciples all say that you will overcome. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm. Heart is strong then where is the question of tuberculosis? (laughs) Wrong present (?). Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Somebody said tuberculosis. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that was that allopathic Dr. Gopal. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Adri*-dharaṇa: He was guessing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Foolish. *Adri*-dharaṇa: He was just guessing. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was guessing but he gave the recommendation for a strong anti*-tubercular medicine. Prabhupāda: No, no, therefore I am not going to. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, these allopathic doctors have been totally a failure for you. There's no question of going back to them in any case. *Prabhupāda: He has already concluded something and he wants to prove it by x*-ray and this and that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And strong medicine he prescribed. Prabhupāda: Hm. (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He would have created havoc with his testing. Prabhupāda: I am not going to die, I will remain in his treatment, this kavirāja. The doctors, they create a situation and they have preconceived. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they make you, if you don't have the disease, then they'll make sure you get it, simply to be right. Prabhupāda: So I shall remain in his treatment. Good (indistinct), that's all. Take his chart and strictly follow. I'll not object, I will follow. Is that all right? Devotees: Yes, Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whatever you tell us is all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm. And from Vrindavan, if he's not getting business stop all, everything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's not getting business. He told me he's having bad luck, he cannot get a new business. Prabhupāda: Oh, so if he has to do business, he has to pay cash and he'll give fifty percent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If he was getting the business, he would have paid your BBT some money. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In over a year he has paid two or three thousand rupees. That's not business. He's taking 800 rupees a month for so long for travel expenses, and he's paid maybe two or three thousand rupees total. I mean it's crazy business. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anybody can see it's not good business. Prabhupāda: So stop it all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I talked with him in a nice way though. I said, "Now you tell me, Vrindavan." I gave him the points. I said, "So you think about it tonight and you let me know tomorrow." I'm talking in a nice way with him because I feel that in... I want them to be happy. I can see they're not so intelligent so they should not... Prabhupāda: At least five thousand rupees business must be given otherwise... That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Immediately there should be business. If a man spends nearly a thousand rupees for travelling every month, he must be making fifteen, twenty thousand rupees. But he is not giving any money at all to the BBT. So where's the one thousand rupees going that he's given? He couldn't be using it for... Prabhupāda: So we have given in charge and now stop it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was giving him travel money now for about two years. And he hasn't given any money to the BBT out of it so I, I really question. I'll talk with him further. Prabhupāda: You deal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I know how to do this because I was doing the saṅkīrtana, so I know what should come from the money he's spending. It's the same idea as anywhere in the world. You spend, it's business, business, whether it's dollars or rupees. I'll try... Prabhupāda: That man who has kept, he's working as assistant, he is plundering. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I think so. Prabhupāda: He's a foolish man. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well the thing is Śrīla Prabhupāda, he's not that intelligent. He's going to be plundered, I mean that's the unfortunate part. That's why we just have to help them and at the same time... Prabhupāda: Try to help but not squander. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's the point. Prabhupāda: I give you full freedom. As you learn. But arrange that they may remain in that house, lifelong and get each two hundred and fifty. Only my wife five hundred, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What happens after when they start getting seven hundred fifty rupees after seven years, they may squander a little bit. But we'll be... Prabhupāda: No, that is already invested. I read government paper. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: OK. Those three things. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: OK. Good. When the seven hundred and fifty rupees is put in fixed deposit for them, it's put in their name so it belongs to them and you can just tell the bank... Prabhupāda: Then let them... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Let them have it. Prabhupāda: After seven years. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can have it, even if they... Prabhupāda: Squander, I don't mind. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Prabhupāda: Our money is not touched. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's not. Prabhupāda: That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can only exercise a certain amount of control, the rest they have to also have some control. Prabhupāda: Our capital is not touched. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's not touched. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway I understand how to deal with them. We have to be like their guardians. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the point. We have to see that they are taken care of and try to help them to live properly. Prabhupāda: You are so intelligent boy, you control them, otherwise stop. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: OK. So you try to rest now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Hm. So thank you very much, Adri*-dharaṇa. Devotee: He went back to his room. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has worked well today. Prabhupāda: I was surprised that in morning he said, "I'm coming." Anyway better late than never. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya. All glories. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All glories to you. [break] ...were saying. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some of our men went to the Delhi University, they also met the Dean of Sciences, Delhi University. In fact they told him, he told them that there is news release. So in fact he kept the cutting of the newspaper to them. So they have read. So it seems to me that there's some good publicity. [break] Most of them knew that we were coming from the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: A new light. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's going to be an international symposium in Madras early next year about the what they call complex light molecules in evolution and there's going to be some Nobel prize winning scientists. So we'll be writing a letter to present our paper in that symposium. That's first week of January next year. If we can present one paper that will be I think quite good. [break] Prabhupāda: (Hindi with Kavirāja) *Adri*-dharaṇa: Did you have good rest last night, Prabhupāda? Kavirāja: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: At the end of the night. Kavirāja: (Hindi with Prabhupāda) Prabhupāda: What is the quantity? *Bhakti*-cāru: Of the Horlicks, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bhakti*-cāru: (Hindi with others) (end) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...request him that "Since you feel that it is very important that Prabhupāda get a little more strength, you kindly wait about two more days, and let us go like that." In other words, we're not overly eager to leave tomorrow. If the kavirāja were willing to stay here for ten days more, we'd be very happy, and then after ten days we'd go with him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So let us try and in some way induce him to extend, as far as he can, and then we'll go on whatever day he says he must go on. *Bhakti*-caru: Actually he agreed to stay about three, four more days. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh. If he agrees to stay a couple more days, we should take advantage of that to give you more time to gain strength. Not that we're overly eager to rush out of here. Our plan is that we want to go where he is, that we want you to remain under his treatment. That is our point. If he was willing... Prabhupāda: No, no, if after all he wants to go, why not leave earlier? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because the whole idea of going is that the medicine is supposed to be having effect. So the longer we have for the medicine to take effect, the stronger you should become. And the stronger you become, the easier will be the journey. It would only be a question of one or two days extra, because in any case he'll want to leave after a few days. [break] Prabhupāda: ...some rest, backside, I can sit down. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: With some rest? Bhavānanda: Something to rest against on his back. Then he can sit. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, and in any case we were going to purchase three seats for Your Divine Grace so that you can lie down conveniently in the plane also. No harm in taking... Because one thing you have to remember: the entire journey will take ten hours, so you should conserve your strength by laying down as far as possible. Here you can sit up for two hours because the bed is stationary, and then you can always be resting. But this will be a ten*-hour journey. So we should try to take every possible means to allow you to be comfortable the whole way and to relax as much as possible. Prabhupāda: Give me some rest, backside. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pillows. There's a couple in that room, also in the palanquin. Prabhupāda: Hm? Bhavānanda: Just setting it up, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We just have to move your back. [break] Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So Śrīla Prabhupāda seems to be feeling a little bit of benefit already from the treatment. (Bhakti*-caru translates to kavirāja) So he's... He feels a little confident under your care. So he's feeling that whenever you like to go to Calcutta, as you have other important business there, that you take him with you and we'll all come. *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The thing is that Prabhupāda does not, neither we feel confident at all, to have Prabhupāda treated by anyone else even in the interim period. (Bhakti*-caru translates, kavirāja answers) The problem is that if some assistant is here, if in case there's some problem develops, then the assistant has to become the one who gives a diagnosis, and we don't trust any assistant. (Bhakti-caru translates, kavirāja answers) *Bhakti*-caru: He's saying that the main disease is being taken care of, but there might be some secondary ailments like a cough or passing stool. Someone has to take care of these sort of symptoms, the secondary effects. But the main thing he has given the medicine, and that he's going to give. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the fact is that no matter how expert one may be, sometimes the body reacts in a certain way. Sometimes the body may react in a way which was not foreseen. And then we are at the mercy of this assistant. And that we do not want. This assistant is... We are not very anxious about it. No person of any great position would ever place themselves under an assistant like that, never. If Morarji Desai was to be treated, he would never allow that assistant to touch him. (Bhakti*-caru translates) We prefer to take the risk... (kavirāja interrupts) You can explain this point. We prefer to take the risk of traveling than the risk of being treated by that assistant, because if you are personally present, there's less risk. (Bhakti-caru translates) Here's what it will entail. From here we will go in the car, a very good, big Western car with a mattress in the back seat, and Prabhupāda will be laying down. You can explain that. (Bhakti-caru translates) Then we'll have a wheelchair at the airport. The car will go right up to the plane and the wheelchair... We'll carry Prabhupāda right into a seat, and he can lay down in the three seats. Then again we'll take him off the plane. Immediately he'll lay down in the car and go to Māyāpura. (Bhakti-caru translates) There there's open air. Here we have to keep everything closed. Cold draft is coming here. And also there all the vegetables are grown fresh on our land. Plus change of place is also nice for improved health. Prabhupāda is accustomed every three days to go to another country or another city. (Bhakti-caru translates, kavirāja answers) We will have about ten of us. There will be at least ten of us traveling, so we will give him all... (Bhakti-caru translates) *Bhakti*-caru: He said Prabhupāda cannot sit. He'll give a medicine for heart so that if there is any jerking or things, it won't effect. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore we want him to take Prabhupāda. (Bhakti*-caru translates) *Bhakti*-caru: He says in this condition he can even take Prabhupāda to London. He was thinking that due to the climatic condition here he could have improved better, because it's a dry climate. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where? Here? As opposed to... The climate in Māyāpura is damp now? *Bhakti*-caru: Bengal is little damp as compared to North India, UP. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These days here. But unfortunately you cannot stay here. (Bhakti*-caru translates, kavirāja answers) *Bhakti*-caru: I was telling him that... I mean, he's facing great difficulty preparing the medicines also here. He says that it's been done; dose of medicine for twenty days has been prepared. Like today also he has got to go for six hours. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The main point is that we would very much be glad if he is able to periodically, every day or every other day, whatever the requirement, to check up on Prabhupāda. What we are afraid is that for twenty days he will not be present to check up. This other man is not competent. *Bhakti*-caru: No, he didn't say it in that relation also. I told him that medicine is a big problem. (Bengali) He says during the last three days there has been only development. Kavirāja: Progress. *Bhakti*-caru: Only progress. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We haven't seen anything regressive. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And Prabhupāda is taking rest also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It appears hopeful. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: He could have been cured in ten days here, but there it will take twenty days to a month due to the climatic condition. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that due to climatic condition, what would take ten days to cure here will take twenty days to thirty days in Māyāpura. The climate is not... (Kavirāja*-Hindi) But the real issue is this. The real issue is that although we were sitting here in the best climate, Prabhupāda was getting worse until he came. So the real point is not the climate but the doctor. (Bhakti-caru translates-kavirāja, Hindi-laughter) Prabhupāda: So you (Hindi) arrange tomorrow? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. *Bhakti*-caru: Tomorrow or day after, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It may be better the day after if you give us one extra day for booking. I don't know if we can get that many seats. We leave the day after tomorrow morning? Okay. So we'll arrange the seats. You want to show that urine color? You have some sample you kept? Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The urine was a little brown today. You can explain. Kavirāja: (Hindi) [break] (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: He's asking whether Śrīla Prabhupāda would like to take some ḍāb water. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did Śrīla Prabhupāda reply? Svarūpa Dāmodara: He said no. *Bhakti*-caru: He doesn't have the desire to drink. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cow milk. Cow urine? What to do with the cow urine? *Bhakti*-caru: Cow urine, that... (kavirāja interrupts) How is the stool? Śatadhanya: It was soft and a medium amount. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What color was it? Śatadhanya: It was brown, dark brown. Kavirāja: Huh? Brown colored. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dark brown. Dark color. You have to ex... *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. Not watery, but... It was soft. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just drinking fruit juice it doesn't seem like Prabhupāda will get much strength. Kavirāja: (Hindi about milk, barley and coughing) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to sit up, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Kavirāja: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (Hindi conversation with long pauses) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, after bathing you'll go on parikrama? (aside:) You can inform the temple that Prabhupāda will go on parikrama. You feel satisfied with this kavirāja, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. [break] *Bhavānanda: ...over there. We drink fresh gaṅgā*-jala every day. Sweetest. When I was on the boat preaching, I never drank anything but gaṅgā-jala. I took my bath in the Gaṅgā three times a day. So spiritually enlivening. Prabhupāda: Three times you were taking? Bhavānanda: My bath. Prabhupāda: Oh. When is your date for appearing in the court? *Bhavānanda: Twenty*-ninth of December, which is the appearance day of your Guru Mahārāja, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura. We have to appear that day. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-ninth December. *Bhavānanda: Twenty*-ninth December. *Bhakti*-caru: It's a long way to go, actually. Bhavānanda: Long way. *Bhakti*-caru: About two months. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Two months. That's in Navadvīpa? *Bhavānanda: In Krishnanagar. The magistrate who is hearing the case is a real gentleman, very kind, understanding. He had been to Māyāpura about three or four months before this incident. He came with his wife and children. We gave him very nice prasādam and showed him the movie "Hare Kṛṣṇa People." And on the 25th of November, that's Rāsa*-pūrṇimā festival, and that is big day at Māyāpura. In three days probably over half million people will come to the temple. We sell so many books, magazines. It never used to be like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, until you built this center. Now the Rāsa-pūrṇimā festival has turned into a big, big event in Bengal. Everyone comes to Māyāpura on pilgrimage, just like Dol-pūrṇimā. Thousands and thousands of people, they come. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, in Vṛndāvana, it's... [break] *Prabhupāda: (conversation with Ānanda Mahārāja*-Bengali) [break] Who is here? Upendra: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Upendra: Huh, Śrīla Prabhupāda? In English? Prabhupāda: Hm? Oh. Give him some fruits. Upendra: Yes. Prabhupāda: Either whole fruit or... Upendra: Either...? Prabhupāda: Whatever is available... (Bengali) [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? Where is Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) I am asking to come to Māyāpura, and he has agreed. So today give him twenty*-five. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Thirty*-five. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-five. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty-five. Okay. Remember that Gītā Pratiṣṭhāna conference? So it's starting tomorrow. I just happened to notice Mr. Rāma*-Kṛṣṇa Bajaj is here and Śrīmān Nārāyaṇa is here. So probably tomorrow they'll want to come and see you. Prabhupāda: Where they are beginning? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're all staying in the guesthouse. They've rented the whole guesthouse. The conference is being held in the same room that they held the science conference in. It's a very good credit for us that they're doing this. I just thought I would inform Your Divine Grace. So I'll just give him now twenty*-five rupees. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know, the fact that he turned to Communism... Probably he's intelligent but frustrated. That's why they turn to this Communism. And he has a very good upbringing, so much association. I mean Vrindavan had no association, but M.M. had a lot of association, not only with Your Divine Grace but with your Guru Mahārāja and Godbrothers. So perhaps with proper, little cultivation, he might... Prabhupāda: You give him the scheme and ask him if he wants to discuss this with me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. But I won't have the amendment to the scheme until tomorrow night. Prabhupāda: No, no. Amendment you can give later on. You can give the scheme. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I think I have a copy of it. All right. Yeah, that's good, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Then the letter will be better. I was thinking it should have... This first thing I write should include that scheme. Prabhupāda: You give him the scheme. Ask him to come and discuss first. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I'll do that. It's not very difficult for him to come to Māyāpura. All right. Prabhupāda: So they can go to the temple now, this saṅkīrtana? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Let us go to the temple? You want to go to the temple now? Prabhupāda: Myself? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean the devotees here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want them to go into the temple and perform kīrtana? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. And you'll hear it from here. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Temple without kīrtana doesn't have full life. Bhavānanda Mahārāja was just saying that this evening. The kīrtana party from Māyāpura, they went back today. Otherwise, every night they've been doing kīrtana for about five hours. Today they're not here because they're returning to Māyāpura. I was thinking today how you've always taken care of us so much and served us so much all of these years that now Kṛṣṇa is giving us a small little opportunity to just do a little service to you. Prabhupāda: How many men, they have come? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I heard that somewhere between a hundred and 150. They reserved all of the rooms of the guesthouse. I told Bhakti*-prema Swami to speak there on the subject of Fifteenth Chapter, fifteenth verse, Prabhupāda: They are looking after the book? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are they looking after the book table? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll have to find out from Viśāla how his book sales are doing. Prabhupāda: Hundred fifty men? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've been told between a hundred and a hundred*-fifty. There's a lecture in the temple now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The kīrtana can't be done in the temple just now because there's a lecture there. Prabhupāda: Lecture? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Every evening there's lecture. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhagavad*-gītā lecture every evening in the temple. Prabhupāda: That is also kīrtana. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So I'll inform the organizer that when Rāma*-Kṛṣṇajī and Śrīmān Nārāyaṇa come, to inform them that they can come and see you. (end) *Prabhupäda Vigil-*-November 1, 1977, Våndävana Brahmānanda: If you're not feeling well today, it can be postponed to another day. Prabhupāda: I am not feeling... (pause) I did not eat even today. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda says he did not eat today, Bhakti*-caru. *Bhakti*-caru: You were sleeping, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the afternoon. That's why I didn't wake you up. Prabhupāda: No. There was no food at all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Didn't Prabhupāda get milk and barley this morning? *Bhakti*-caru: Yeah. Bhavānanda: Also you said he took twelve spoons of khicuṛi and loki? *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. You took some lunch today, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You took morning and lunch. Prabhupāda: That is very little. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But compared to other days, you took as much or more. Well, then we can postpone and we can put ourselves under the care of this other kavirāja who came the other day. Prabhupāda: Who came? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Remember the kavirāja from the Raṅgajī temple? The assistant that this man was going to bring. So now we can be put under his care and take our chances. 'Cause that's what staying here means. Bhavānanda: The kavirāja, he explained that if you remained here, that would be good. But he didn't think there was any risk of death for you to go to Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: No, actually, when I was making parikrama, this corner, I was feeling fainted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This corner? Brahmānanda: At the turn. Prabhupāda felt like fainting. Bhavānanda: I saw when he closed his eyes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, most of this traveling that we're going to do, you will be laying down. Prabhupāda: That laying down and this laying down, that is different? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, then we have to think of what the alternative is. Staying here means being subject to the possible care of this assistant who you saw the other day, 'cause this kavirāja will not wait any longer. He can't stay here any longer. We can try and convince him to stay, but I don't know how successful we will be. And he may give his medicines, but if some unforeseen difficulty develops, then it means that we are under the care of this other person. Bhavānanda: This palanquin parikrama is very rough. You're bouncing up and down. You're going swinging sideways. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (aside:) It's not as rough as traveling to Māyāpura, though, not one tenth as rough or one fiftieth. You know, all you got to do is go on a rough road. It's nothing. This palanquin is smooth compared to that, going slowly and being carried. I think the main point, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that we have to consider going as opposed to staying here with the possibility of being at the..., under the care of this other kavirāja. That to me is the choice. This kavirāja will give medicines... First of all, we can try to convince him to stay, but failing that, he's giving a series of medicines which he expects will be proper according to the condition. But naturally the condition can change on any date. Then what will we do? Prabhupāda: I say no medicine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No medicine. We should reject this kavirāja. Prabhupāda: Hm? Brahmānanda: Yadubara was asking how much time the kavirāja would stay with you in Māyāpura. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every few days he'll be there, every two days, every three days. Yadubara: He said like that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's prepared to do that. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is there some... You're feeling some bad effect from these medicines that you want to reject them? (pause) Prabhupāda: At least there is risk of life. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By traveling. Prabhupāda: I see that. Bhavānanda: We've also seen, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that while you've been here in Vṛndāvana without this kavirāja, your condition has steadily deteriorated. Now he's come, and there's some slight improvement. We can speak to him about staying, but it's highly unlikely that he'll be able to stay away from his practice for any time longer. Then, if your condition turns again, then what do we do? There's also risk. Prabhupāda: No, no. Risk is there, and risk is here. So better take the risk here. Bhavānanda: And chance of survival is here and chance of survival is there. But where is the... Prabhupāda: No. Provided you reach there. There is survival or whatever it may be, but whether there is arrival? The best thing is no medicine and kindly give me some (sic:) circumambulation and leave me to the fate. *Bhakti*-caru: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, don't you think that the medicine is working, is having some good effect? Prabhupāda: If it is working, then why I'm not feeling any strength? *Bhakti*-caru: That will come slowly, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Ah. That means I have to take the medicine and not that risking. The best thing is, whatever service you can give, you arrange. Leave me without medicine. Bhavānanda: Why is that the best thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Why is that the best thing? Prabhupāda: Because all, everything has failed. Bhavānanda: This kavirāja has not promised miraculous recovery. He has said it takes time. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. At least fifteen days, he said. Bhavānanda: We're all feeling encouraged for the first time. *Bhakti*-caru: Actually the kavirāja has left it up to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He said that the way you have cured your cough and cold in just a day, in just a few hours' time, the same way you can cure all your disease if you want, just yourself, without any medicine. At the same time, you dreamt this Rāmānuja kavirāja giving you the medicine, and ever since you started taking the medicines there has been some good effect, like you started passing more urine, you started getting a little appetite, little taste, your swelling has gone down, to some extent. Prabhupāda: Swelling has not... (long silence) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? About two days ago you said that either the kavirāja should stay here or we should go with him. So why should we change that idea? Prabhupāda: Because in this morning I was fainting. So there was no strength. How long I (sic:) circumbulate? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: About a half hour. Prabhupāda: Even half hour, if I am fainting... So if I die without medicine, without kavirāja, what is the harm? Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: According to the kavirāja, his treatment is that first of all he has to take care of your liver and kidneys before giving you strength. He said there's no question of you getting any strength until your liver and kidneys are healed. Prabhupāda: So take the medicine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So the first part of his cure is to help your liver and kidneys. Then, when they are functioning properly, you'll be able to eat and other things which will automatically give strength. Medicine will not give strength, but medicine can cure the organs which are now not working properly. Prabhupāda: No, you take medicine from him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. That was his proposal. His proposal was that you take medicine, and then after ten or fifteen days, you may have enough strength... And he was going to come back and then take you to Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: So do that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The only reason that we were hesitant was because if something along the way happens, had he been here, he could have adjusted the medicine to suit the particular needs. Now, not being here, we'll have to depend upon this assistant in case something changes. If nothing changes, then there's no harm. But if something should suddenly alter... Prabhupāda: So that time... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Alter means death. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it doesn't mean death. Alter means supposing you suddenly develop some... You can't say what it will be. It doesn't necessarily mean death. *Bhakti*-caru: Some secondary ailments. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Anything may come up. Just like sometimes you get a cough. Cough doesn't mean death. Sometimes you pass a little more stool. That doesn't mean death. So anyway, the idea is that having a kavirāja personally present naturally is the best thing. So if it's not possible, and that does develop, then we'll have to call upon the man he's..., this assistant. Prabhupāda: So why call Māyāpura? Let him supply the medicine from Calcutta. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supply the medicine from Calcutta. Well, he said he can give enough medicine now to last I think for about another ten days. Even now. Prabhupāda: So that is all right. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. The main medicine, we have the supply for ten days already, that, the one that he distilled yesterday. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, we can still try and convince him not to go. That would be the best thing. Prabhupāda: No, he's staying, but actually you are administering his medicine. It doesn't require... *Bhakti*-caru: His presence. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Providing everything goes according to his plan. Yes, his presence is simply an encouragement, not necessarily a necessity so far. Prabhupāda: If he cannot stay, let his medicine remain and let him go. But if you think that I am burden now... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's not what we think. We will never think that. There will never come that time. Brahmānanda: We are the burden, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are the cause of your disease, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Brahmānanda: You have to drag us back to Godhead. That is a very big burden. Prabhupāda: So as you think... But this morning I was fainting. *Bhakti*-caru: That is because this parikrama is very strenuous, Śrīla Prabhupāda, this jerking and swinging. Prabhupāda: So how...? How? How we can? Brahmānanda: So three hours to Delhi, then the plane ride and then three hours to Māyāpura? *Bhakti*-caru: No, I mean that is out of the question. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not out of the question. We were considering doing it. (laughter) It's only three hours away. (laughter) Brahmānanda: The cars are coming. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The cars are coming. The tickets are booked. It's not out of the question. Śatadhanya's in Calcutta. (laughter) *Bhakti*-caru: But then again there is one advantage, that all along he can lie down. His Divine Grace can lie down. Upendra: The only time he feels faint is when he's sitting up. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So Upendra says that the time that you get faint is when you're sitting up. If you lay down you don't get faint. If the issue is that you got faint, then that's only because... I've seen you sitting in this bed and getting fainting sometimes, sitting up, fainting. Laying down... You can't faint when you lay down. Fainting is when you're sitting up. But practically the whole time you'll be sitting up, I mean laying down. And neither fainting is not necessarily... That is not a sign of death, fainting. Prabhupāda: Fainting means of death. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? I know myself, I have a history where I have fainted more than twenty*-five times in my life, and I did not die. I fainted in so many different places. In the subways in New York... Prabhupāda: You are young man, and I am already dead. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why don't we see what the kavirāja thinks, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Should we call him? *Prabhupāda: Hm. (whispering) Why "phish*-phish"? Why not talk? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Why whispering?" Upendra was saying that not going is all right, but the fact that you are rejecting medicine, that is not good. So I was saying that I don't really think that you're rejecting the medicine, but you're taking that position so that we settle in between. (laughing) I can understand that you appreciate that the medicine is doing some good, but in order to get us to agree... Brahmānanda: It is you who were saying that by Prabhupāda's not going, then we're at a loss for medicine. So then Prabhupāda said, "All right, then no medicine." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Also Prabhupāda's saying no medicine so that if we say, "All right, stay, but take the medicine," then Prabhupāda will... *Bhakti*-caru: He'll agree to that, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Transcendental bargaining. (laughs) Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have seen you dealing with the most tricky people in the world. I saw you dealing with that Mr. Nair, and then with that other man, Mr. Ratnaparki? So I can understand that when you say, (laughs) "No medicine at all," that we will then simply say, "Well, please, Śrīla Prabhupāda, just take medicine and then you stay here," and you'll say, "All right." (laughs) Prabhupāda: I want simply once parikrama. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One mahā*-parikrama? Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, one time around. Not many times. Prabhupāda: No, no. As I am doing, that much. Medicine, no medicine... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, actually we're also wanting you to do parikrama, but we would..., one day we are hoping to see you walking the parikrama. Prabhupāda: That's all right. For the time being, if by parikrama, fainting, dying, that is a glorious. That I want. Will it be great burden? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. That's not the question, of burden. The only thing is that we want you to get better. There's no question of burden. Prabhupāda: No, no, better... Jayādvaita: Burden of love. Prabhupāda: Better... If suppose I am sure to die, then where is better? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but we don't suppose that. We're not supposing that you're sure to die. Bhavānanda: We don't feel that at all. Brahmānanda: I don't think there's any question that you're going to die, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: In the morning this symptom... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, you fainted... Although you don't remember sometimes, you have fainted at least a half a dozen times in the last month or two. I know you don't recall it, because we did not say anything. But we have seen you faint at least a half a dozen times, actually faint, falling backwards a little bit in bed when you were sitting up. In extreme weakness, fainting is natural. It is not necessarily a symptom of death. It's due to excessive weakness. The blood does not circulate properly in the head, and one faints. I mean people faint all over the world all the time. Jayādvaita: On Janmāṣṭamī when they're fainting... When all the devotees fast, everyone faints. All day long they're fainting. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayādvaita: On Janmāṣṭamī, when there's mandatory fasting for all the devotees, half of the devotees are fainting throughout the day. Brahmānanda: They faint? Jayādvaita: Yes. Bhavānanda: Subhaga always faints. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes devotees faint just from fasting one day. You have fasted for six months, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If you faint a little bit, it's not a sign of death. Prabhupāda: No, no. I am welcoming death. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know. That's the... That's why we're talk... Bhavānanda: But we are not. We are not welcoming the idea of your death, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You say, "What is the harm?" There is no harm for you. Your return to Kṛṣṇa has been assured from your very birth. Prabhupāda: So why not allow me to do that? Bhavānanda: We are thinking of the harm for us and the rest of the world. *Prabhupāda: That depends on Kṛṣṇa. But for me, if you give me this facility*-one parikrama, and then leave me to my fate-you'll give me... Because I am not eating, so keep me whole day as I am. But if you think that I have become burden, then... (whispering) Hm? Bhavānanda: I was just saying, Śrīla Prabhupāda, something must have happened that you're feeling somehow that we think that you have become a burden. But we don't feel that way at all, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Jayādvaita: You've given the example in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that when a capitalist has money, that's also a burden. And when the woman has a child, that child is a burden. So in the same way... But that burden is a burden of love. So you're that kind of burden, the kind of burden that's wanted. Prabhupāda: Where is kavirāja? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhakti*-caru went to get him. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Swelling is reducing. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Kavirāja: (Hindi) (end) *Brahmānanda: ...offered him respect. This Bajaj, he was speaking something to him, offering him some respect. This morning they just had their organizational meeting, and they've asked one of our representatives to come and speak about our activities. So Akṣayānanda Swami will speak, and he will speak in Hindi. One of the things they mentioned... 'Cause I was saying this morning that we're having difficulty also getting the younger people to join, so they thought that one reason is that our men are not able to speak the Indian languages. These people are also very attached to Indian language. They're pro*-Indian language. So if he speaks in Hindi, that will be an influence... Prabhupāda: He is Māyāvādī, this... What is? Akhandananda? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: You met him? Brahmānanda: I didn't see... You remember you went to that Kurukṣetra meeting? Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: About two years ago? Mainly the same people are here also that were there at that meeting. Then this Swami Cinmayananda... Prabhupāda: He has not come. Brahmānanda: No. They were just talking about him. Prabhupāda: Don't bother to come here, then. *Brahmānanda: But they treated you with much respect, though. They said that they had wanted Your Divine Grace to come because you are also a member of their steering committee. (indistinct) They also had a proposal to produce a series of different books, small books, pamphlets, forty, fifty pages, comprising selections from the Bhagavad*-gītā. And these would be for specific types of persons. The books would be Bhagavad-gītā for students, Bhagavad-gītā for businessmen, Bhagavad-gītā for scientists, like that. So they want us to produce the book for the scientists, taking various quotes from Bhagavad-gītā with a short explanation of the verse. So I said one problem is that all the different groups who are assembled here will all have different interpretations of the verses. What about this? And they said, "No, no, we shouldn't interpret." I said, "Well, one reason that the young people are not taking up this Bhagavad-gītā is because they see that everyone is giving a different interpretation. Nobody is presenting it as it is, so they're confused." I was in Kashmir, I was speaking with some young boys. They were telling me they're confused by religion. They don't respect the paṇḍitas in the temples-they're all simply after money. They have no respect for religion, Hindu religion. So I mentioned this to all of them. They are all Māyāvādīs. And they argued with me. I presented arguments. They would not accept it. Prabhupāda: They want to avoid criticism. *Brahmānanda: I argued right back with them. I said, "You..." They were saying that we shouldn't interpret Bhagavad*-gītā. I said, "Then why are you saying that Kṛṣṇa means 'divine consciousness'? Where does Kṛṣṇa say 'divine consciousness'? He says, mām, aham. He doesn't say 'divine consciousness.' He says 'to Me.' " Prabhupāda: And all the ācāryas say. We have to follow the ācāryas. Very good. They do not answer. And they... Is it not? Brahmānanda: But they don't listen to you. We tell them the truth, but they don't want to hear it. They just want to come and become important by their attending this meeting, become puffed up and speak their own ideas and think that they're accomplishing some real... Prabhupāda: That may be (indistinct). *Brahmānanda: One of the delegates, he is sitting there, and he was spinning thread on a hand spinner. Then afterwards he stopped and even he fell asleep during the meeting. We were arguing about personalism and impersonalism, and Mr. Bajaj, he interrupted that "Now, you shouldn't... The purpose of this meeting is not to discuss Bhagavad*-gītā but just to discuss how to promote Bhagavad-gītā." Prabhupāda: No idea of... He has no authorized. *Brahmānanda: One thing they recognize is that the young people of India, they want to see the experience of Bhagavad*-gītā. Just like Arjuna in the beginning was bewildered and in the end he agreed. So that experience... I said, "Yes, and we have had the same experience, because as Westerners, in the beginning we didn't even the know the name Kṛṣṇa, and now we are serving Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day. So obviously there was some great experience. So that has been given to us by Śrīla Prabhupāda." And then he recognized, "Yes." I said, "So we are... We can actually give our experience." So then he suggested that some publication be made actually dealing with the experiences. Prabhupāda: That we are giving. This Bhāgavata discourse... Brahmānanda: I think now that our books are coming out in the Indian languages and are being distributed, I think this will cause young Indians... Prabhupāda: Young Indians are not... They have already published these things. Scientific investigation of matter. Brahmānanda: Yes, they appreciated that we are preaching to the scientists. They liked that, that we're the only ones who are doing this, because the scientists are amongst the biggest atheists. *Prabhupāda: This Gītā Pratiṣṭhāna is a good proposal, transport(?) Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is all over the world. (indistinct) Brahmānanda: When I was in Jammu, we went to visit a big army base there, Indian Army, huge. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) *Brahmānanda: Yes. And we went to visit one colonel, full colonel, in charge of supply. He's a very pious men. He tells his soldiers not to drink, not to eat meat, and he teaches them Bhagavad*-gītā. So we went to go speak with him, and he was very impressed. He himself admitted that he was taking eggs and drinking tea. So I requested him to stop this, and then you'll be on the..., purely. And he could understand that. He agreed. He said, "From now on, from this day, I will stop." And we showed him the film, "Hare Kṛṣṇa People," and he was very impressed. He called another officer in, and they called their wives to come to the base, and we showed it a second time. And then he wanted some of our books. I gave him Bhagavad-gītā and Hindi Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and then told him about our Gurukula here in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: How much he paid? (?) *Brahmānanda: Well, he was wanting to pay, but Nava*-yogendra Mahārāja said it's all right... We asked him to become a member. He didn't want to pay so much money. So we gave him... Because he was an important officer, we gave him. Then he offered... He has some land 25 miles from Delhi, and he said, "We would like to give it for a Hindu temple." Prabhupāda: Who was there, this meeting? Brahmānanda: This meeting? Well, the meeting was led by the three men who came to see you this morning. The center was the man from Auroville, and then Mr. Nārāyaṇa and Mr. Bajaj. Prabhupāda: So that will be three. Brahmānanda: Yes. Of the three, Mr. Nārāyaṇa is very favorable to us. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami was noticing it. He preached to him about two or three years ago. At that time he was chief minister for Gujarat, governor. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I want to suggest that you should not talk too much, because the doctor said conserve yourself. (indistinct) Because tomorrow we're going to be leaving at about two o'clock, two or two*-thirty, so you won't get a full night's rest. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are the most important (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Bon Mahārāja you did not see? Brahmānanda: He didn't see me. I was in the back, and he was in the front. Mr. Jaluka came. I spoke with him, and he asked about you. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The reason I don't want you to talk so much now, because I suspect they're all going to want to come and see you, and then you'll definitely talk too much. If they're all here, they're all going to want to see you. (indistinct) It's very prestigious that it's being held in our temple. In such a short time this temple has become (indistinct) for very important meetings. *Brahmānanda: Bon Mahārāja, he had this idea for making this center in Vṛndāvana, and now, after so many years, it's practically closed. Everything's shut down. Ghost town. Just in two*-three, three years our temple is now the most popular. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Jaya Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now we will pay them our (indistinct) but we will go on watching. That we want. As long as you're watching them, we will (indistinct). Prabhupāda: They haven't got (indistinct). *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. He's definitely impersonalist. But he's not very serious, caught in family life. He associates with these people. I mean his philosophy's Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Brahmānanda: They want to see our films tonight. They want to see the film on New Vrindaban, "Spiritual Frontier." They'll show it tonight at 8:30. And they want kīrtana. Mr. Nārāyaṇa, he's very much wanting us to have kīrtana. He said, "That is the thing." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, you should rest, really. Probably all the men will come to see you, so you can talk directly with them. (long pause) [break] Brahmānanda: They were arguing with me. They would not accept. They were so strong Māyāvāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually this is one way that we ought to be able to... First of all, it would be prestigious on our part to stick to our principles, and secondly, actually people will find that we're convinced when they'll see, "You are Māyāvādī, we have no bus... You are not..." At first they may feel offended, that why shouldn't we let everybody speak. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda says, in future, henceforward, these people should not be allowed to hold lectures here. Strictly Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching forbids. Māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhī. You tell them, "You're Māyāvādī. So this is a Kṛṣṇa conscious temple. If you're speaking on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Vaiṣṇavism..." We don't need their money, neither do we need them to become more prestigious. Rather, they need us. They came here only because of the fact that they're so insignificant that they wanted to be associated with Prabhupāda. Without you they have no substance, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Without your presence the meeting has no substance. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Why? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because you are the only substantial personality amongst all of them. Therefore they know that. We have concluded that they know. Akṣayānanda: I just spoke. I just told them Śrīla Prabhupāda was one Indian who has done this, so if everyone in India does this a little, then the whole world would become Vaikuṇṭha. And I said, "He has one secret, one śloka from the Bṛhad Nāradīya Purāṇa: harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva [Cc. Ādi 17.21]." They liked it very much. They all applauded. I told them in Hindi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You spoke in Hindi? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they won't change. Akṣayānanda: I also said that many, many swamis and yogis and sannyāsīs have tried to bring the teachings all over the world. And they have given different versions, just like dhyāna, jñāna, karma, etc. But then I quoted two ślokas, na tad mām abhijānanti, and the other one, yas tas tu aham evaṁ viduḥ.(?) I said, "In this way our spiritual master has taught us. Even though we are foreigners, he has successfully made us come to the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa. So if you are all Indians and you know Lord Kṛṣṇa better than me, so come and stay with us. All over the world my Guru Mahārāja has established our temples. Please stay with us anywhere in the world and help us, join us at the lotus feet of the Lord." So they were very happy with this. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's good that you tell this to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Bombay also. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Especially everybody's going to be after us for that air*-conditioned hall. It's really good that you're telling us. Prabhupāda: Be very careful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Your Divine Grace and this movement is the only substantial movement left in India now, in the whole world. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can have signboard: "No Māyāvādīs visit (?) here." (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. Just like "No dogs allowed." (laughter) Are you serious about that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. (indistinct) Brahmānanda: If they come and they want to hold meetings, we show them the signboard that "We don't allow Māyāvādīs here." Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, on the signboard we'll quote the verse from Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Prabhupāda: Why they do not hold meetings in Bon Mahārāja's...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, there's a number of reasons. One is that you are not in Bon Mahārāja's place, and they want your presence, because they are inconsequential without you. And another thing is that Bon Mahārāja's place is a little bit archaic, dilapidated. Brahmānanda: I remember you went there I think two years ago, and (indistinct) Bon Mahārāja there within one room. And he came to turn the light on in the room, and there was no light bulb in the socket. They had to go and get a light bulb and put it in. I mean he doesn't even use that. Prabhupāda: It is closed now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Soon he will rent a room here in the guesthouse. Akṣayānanda: He was at the (indistinct). This morning. Prabhupāda: In the guesthouse they can remain. But they cannot hold meeting. *Brahmānanda: They were asking me that we should cooperate with them, but they are envious of us. This one woman, the way she was speaking to me, it was quite... She was attacking me. She was so envious. She was quoting Bhagavad*-gītā that Kṛṣṇa recommends the impersonal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So why is she talking? Why talk? Everything is illusion. Then why talk? Brahmānanda: She said there are two paths. I said, "Yes, but your path is most difficult. So why are you promoting the most difficult path to follow?" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But who cares for her path? Akṣayānanda: (indistinct) a different path. Prabhupāda: Never mind. You remain strong. Don't be intimidated by this... That is my request. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I think we should go to the next room. We will do just exactly as you say. [break] (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 2, 1977, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What you are going to say? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What are we going to do? What am I going to say? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, the real factor is Your Divine Grace's desire. I mean it seems like... As your disciples, our duty is to help you fulfill your desire. It seems like your desire is to die in Vṛndāvana. But it's very hard for us to execute that service. It's very hard-because we love you*-to assist you in dying. It's a paradox. You want to die in Vṛndāvana, and we want you to live, and yet we have to do whatever you want. I mean, the kavirāja, he is giving some... He feels a little confident. Probably from medical point of view, there's no doubt, he has far superior knowledge than many of us. Prabhupāda: Viśvambhara has not yet...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Viśvambhara has not come yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I mean for the past few days you've been saying that you want to live. Now suddenly you say that you want to die. Maybe that's simply to discourage us from... Because you feel too weak now. There's so many conflicting... Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: Do you understand? He's saying that "As a physician, in this condition, I wouldn't advise you to go. But if you desire to go there, then I have enough confidence in my medicine, and since you have the will, so I can assure you I can take you over there safely. Now it's up to you whether you want to go or whether you want to stay." He's saying that if you stay here for ten more days, then you'll become strong enough and you can travel. And he's willing to come back again after about a week, and then he'll stay here for a day or two and then take him. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think that's a good idea. Don't you, Mahārāja? *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda is saying that... Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to stay here, but we want him to take... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants to stay here, that's a fact. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is that? *Bhakti*-caru: Water intake, liquid. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How much urine has he passed since six o'clock this morning? Six o'clock this morning? Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda. Brahmānanda: Yes, Prabhupāda? *Bhakti*-caru: Two hundred and twenty. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole day? *Bhakti*-caru: No, since six. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the whole day? *Bhakti*-caru: The whole day it's 320. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Hm? Brahmānanda: Just translating what the doctor is saying. If there's any risk, Prabhupāda, in traveling, then you shouldn't take that risk. The doctor will come back here next week and then we can see. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: In the morning the symptom was that. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: He's saying, from the treatment point of view, it's best if Śrīla Prabhupāda stays here for ten more days. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tell him that the only reason we had any reservation about that was because if some side effect develops, then he is not here to help, and we have to take the help of this other person, who we do not trust. *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: He's saying that now his medicine started working. So he'll give one day's medicine, and he's confident that that medicine will work. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One day's? *Bhakti*-caru: Seven days. And apart from that, he's saying that that boy, he has got confidence in him that whatever instruction he gives, he will follow. He is going to follow that, not like other physicians. He wouldn't try to administer his own medicine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but supposing there's a symptom which he has not predicted at this time? *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: He says that nothing will happen. He's saying that the main thing... He found out the main defect in the body. He's saying that if anything is wrong, then we can ring him up and he'll come immediately. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Indian man (1): Next time, when he comes, make arrangement to stay for a long time. *Bhakti*-caru: Say, at least about a week, so that he can stay here for about a week. This time he came absolutely unprepared. Prabhupāda: Turn me this way. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara is here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: Mahārāja, do you have the urine report? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can you go in my file under "M"? There's a folder, an envelope, a big envelope. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: He said that... Indian man (1): Prabhupāda should not speak to anybody. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should not speak to anybody. Well that's all right with me, but whether Śrīla Prabhupāda... Kavirāja: (Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Don't allow guests. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about this parikrama? Prabhupāda feels that that must go on. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Indian man (1): If he insists on going on parikrama, he can give a special medicine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's pretty insistent. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So is this all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That we'll wait here for another week to ten days, and Shastriji will give us medicine. The kavirāja will give us medicine, and you can take it for another week or so. After a week's time he'll come back, and then, after a few days, he'll take you to Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: At least at present this decision will be good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This decision is good. He says that you should not do so much talking, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I'll not talk. Svarūpa Dāmodara: For about ten days. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've never seen this possible, though. (laughter) You always speak of Kṛṣṇa. That is your life and soul, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. He says if you insist on going on parikrama, then he will give you a little medicine which will help you. Prabhupāda: Parikrama must be there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Four times? That's all right. Three times around, into the temple, and one more time. That will be nice. Four times. Is that all right? Will that be all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: We have given four times. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're doing a lot more than four now. We do about ten. Smara*-hari knows because he carries you. (laughs) So then we'll make this program, Śrīla Prabhupāda? And you should keep making the effort, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to get better. Kṛṣṇa may desire for you to get better, Śrīla Prabhupāda. At least it is our duty to pray like that. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Telephone... (Hindi) ...any time. Prabhupāda: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: So... In Bengali there is such thing, "When you hesitate, don't do it." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we also sometimes feel that when there's a hesitation, it seems like the Supersoul is giving indication. Prabhupāda: But he has not also come? Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhagatji? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has not come yet. Prabhupāda: So when he will come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I am also beginning to wonder. He was supposed to come by at least four or five o'clock. I'm sure he'll have a good reason, but until he comes I cannot speculate on why he's late. Prabhupāda: It will be late. The other person, whether they will come at night? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, that's probably why he is late, because they would only come at night. That's my... Last time this was also done at about this time, Śrīla Prabhupāda. These men work all day in the court, and they can't come until the evening. Prabhupāda: And suppose he does not come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, if he does not come, then I'll have to find out why he didn't come. Prabhupāda: And then you will have to postpone. They'll have to postpone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, if they don't come, then certainly we'll have to postpone this signing, because they won't be here. Are you feeling up to signing anything tonight? I don't think so. You feel a little too much... You can do? Let us see if they come. I think they're going to come. Of course, it is getting pretty late. Anyway, we'll see. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Quarter to nine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In any case, you're not at any loss. You're laying here. Just I think now I'll turn off the light. Do you like some little kīrtana? Singing? You haven't been having kīrtana lately in your room very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Anyway, if you like, we'll just keep it quiet here and turn off the light. Would you prefer that? Prabhupāda: Light you can keep. Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have to give the key to the door. I keep the door locked when I'm not in the room. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (whispering) I made two members today for the Institute. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you stay longer on this planet, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that will make this movement stronger. That is the real reason for living longer. 'Cause you are a pure devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa, you have no personal desire. This is Kṛṣṇa's movement. If you stay longer, then this movement will become stronger and stronger. Simply by your presence the devotees become inspired and they work much better. We can understand that there's nothing to lament if you were to depart, because you're always going to be with Kṛṣṇa. But we would have to lament from our own point of view that we would lose you, at least in the way that we have you now. And the whole world would lament because this movement might not be as strong if you were not present. Prabhupāda: Then make this arrangement, one week or ten days. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are doing that. We have already agreed to that. Actually I could see from the very beginning that that's what we're going to do, but sometimes I feel it is my duty to give good arguments for some opposite opinion just to see both sides. Ultimately we are prepared to be with you wherever you want to be. To us that is home. That is our great pleasure, to be with you. So we're making that arrangement, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] (offers obeisances) Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Do you think that without finishing this business we shall go? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Without finishing the business of these, this legal business? Oh, yes, this legal business is not what would keep us here. Prabhupāda: Then how it will... How it will be done? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean it can be executed in Māyāpura as well. Prabhupāda: How? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Das, our friend from Calcutta, can come. It's pretty much now... It's already drafted, and... It would just have to be redrafted again on new stamp paper or the words would have to be changed. It would have to be retyped on stamp paper from Bengal side. The basic writing is... Prabhupāda: That means unfinished despite unfinished. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Śrīla Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: Hm? It is past nine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So maybe this is the reason we're not going. Prabhupāda: No. Even if we decide to go, that means despite unfinishing... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I really don't feel that this would be enough of a reason to stay here. The whole consideration of whatever we do is your health. That is the major consideration. Our going was on account of your health; our staying now is on account of your health. These other things may be done or not. That doesn't matter. I work all day doing all of your other businesses only because I know your health is well looked after. Otherwise, if I thought it wasn't, I would drop whatever else I'm doing and simply do this, take care of you here. There's so many qualified men doing that, so I don't... I'm engaging myself in your other businesses. Otherwise the main thing is that first of all you should be..., we should try to help you to get better. And if I say, "If you want to take rest, you take rest and don't be worried that this business may not get done tonight." That is not the issue at all. Prabhupāda: But how is that they did not come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is very strange. I must admit I'm very surprised, very, very surprised. I think the only possible answer to it can be that the work itself is difficult work, plus there must have been some other works that either the lawyer had to do or the notary had to do, and so it just could not... I mean after all, this was very, very quickly done. When we decided that we were going to go, it was only on Monday. That means yesterday morning that we decided that we were going to leave. So I mean from yesterday morning until tonight is practically not even... It's hardly enough time to do the legal work that we wanted to do. It was a real strain. Actually it would have been very surprising if we do get it done by tonight. That would be very surprising. Prabhupāda: I don't think. It is past nine. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You don't think they'll come now. No, I also don't think. I mean it's not good etiquette to come at this hour for business. It's nearly nine*-thirty, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I mean I don't think that... If you'll permit me to request them, even if they do come now, that we do it on another day, then I would prefer to do that. Oh, I hear Bhagatji. (goes and returns) So they're all here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So we can go to Māyāpura now. (laughs) So I better... First I'll have to go through all the documents and see that they're in order. Then I'll bring them in here and we'll finish this business. Prabhupāda: Then let us go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) You want to go to Māyāpura? Prabhupāda: As you are saying, I'll go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I mean you guide us. As you say, we will do. There's no... The doctor advises, "Better to remain." His medical opinion is that you should wait here for another ten days. Prabhupāda: So do that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He said the only reason... He said, "However, if you really feel that you want to go," he says, "I guarantee you that there will be no risk." That he promises. If you want to go, there will not be risk. But from a medical point of view he says, "I advise you to get stronger before making the trip, because it will be easier." Prabhupāda: So do that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that's our program. We're going to wait here ten days. After seven days, doctor is coming back. Kavirāja is coming back. He'll also by that time have arranged so that when he comes he can stay even up to a week if necessary. Prabhupāda: And I'll get some strength. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's his point, yes. He feels confident that you'll get strength. Is that all right? I'll go now and... [break] Prabhupāda: So somebody else come near me. Tamāla? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: If somebody has come from Delhi, in that car could not come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Someone has come from Delhi. The cars came. Prabhupāda: But... No, no. It could not come in time. *Bhakti*-caru: They couldn't come in time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The cars only came here by four o'clock. Prabhupāda: Then? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it seems like it was Kṛṣṇa's desire that we didn't go. I was pretty shocked when I saw that the cars only arrived by four o'clock in the morning. There was no way that we would have been able to go on time. Prabhupāda: So what is to be done now? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is to be done now? Well, we're going to stay here for ten days or so, and you'll get better. When you get stronger, then we can attempt this trip. We have to hope that you'll get stronger now. Did you take all the medicine, Bhakti*-caru, from the kavirāja? *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. He made all the medicines till eleven o'clock. Prabhupāda: So we shall wait. We shall wait. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. No, that was the best program, to wait some time. We were feeling a little bit happy to get this good kavirāja, so naturally we were thinking to stay where he could give you more close attention. But he also felt that to wait for some time was best. Did you pass a comfortable night? *Prabhupāda: As usual. Bhavānanda was reading Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Now Jayādvaita, you read. Jayādvaita: I can read, or Akṣayānanda Mahārāja is here with the report about the program last night. Prabhupāda: Oh. Where is Akṣayānanda? Jayādvaita: Here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Akṣayānanda: They enjoyed... We showed them the New Vrindaban film, Hindi. They enjoyed it very much. Also they asked us to speak. They said, "But don't speak anything about the *Gītā*." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Akṣayānanda: Yes. They said, "You can speak what you like about ISKCON, but we know all about *Gītā*. Don't speak anything about *Gītā*. Tell us about the progress of ISKCON." So I read out how many books have been printed and distributed since Your Divine Grace started ISKCON, how many farms you've established, how many centers, how many devotees all over the world and like that. They're very dry. But nonetheless, the film was so nice that they were very much impressed by it. They took prasādam. They enjoyed it very much. Prabhupāda: "Don't speak of *Gītā*"? *Akṣayānanda: Yes. "Gītā*-pratiṣṭhāna," but "Don't speak of Gītā." It's foolishness. *Prabhupāda: Now the danger is māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. So Vṛndāvana is full of Māyāvādīs. Do you accept it? And I am afraid our men may be influenced. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's clear saying-māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa. Hm? What is to be done? [break] They are coming to our Vṛndāvana temple, Bombay temple. What is their purpose? They may occupy it? Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they can't occupy it. Prabhupāda: So we have to be very careful. Hm? Akṣayānanda: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Akṣayānanda? And Tamāla? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they're not going to get in. From now on we're going to have a sign on all of our temples, "No Māyāvādī Meetings Allowed." *Prabhupāda: It is clearly written, māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śu... Sixth Chapter. Hm? The Sarvabhauma... *Bhavānanda: One sixty*-nine. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bhavānanda: Purport: "Factually the devotional service of the Lord is described in Vedānta*-sūtra, but the Māyāvādī philosophers, the Śaṅkarites, prepared a commentary known as Śārīraka-bhāṣya, in which the transcendental form of the Lord is denied. The Māyāvādī philosophers think that the living entity is identical with the Supreme Soul, Brahman. Their commentaries on Vedānta-sūtra are completely opposed to the principle of devotional service. Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore warns us to avoid these commentaries. If one indulges in hearing the Śaṅkarite Śārīraka-bhāṣya, he will certainly be bereft of all real knowledge. The ambitious Māyāvādī philosophers desire to merge into the existence of the Lord, and this may be accepted as sāyujya-mukti. However, this form of mukti means denying one's individual existence. In other words, it is a kind of spiritual suicide. This is absolutely opposed to the philosophy of bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga offers immortality to the individual conditioned soul. If one follows the Māyāvādī philosophy, he misses his opportunity to become immortal after giving up the material body. The immortality of the individual person is the highest perfectional stage a living entity can attain." Prabhupāda: Who were..., was present all through in the meeting? *Akṣayānanda: Rāma*-Kṛṣṇa Bajaj was there. Śrīmān Nārāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: No, you were there? Akṣayānanda: I was there. Prabhupāda: So what the gosvāmīs said? Akṣayānanda: Well, last night they didn't speak anything. They just heard our film and lecture. That's all. They didn't speak anything last night. Actually they are very impressed. Prabhupāda: Who was impressed? Akṣayānanda: All the people. They all... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda's asking about the Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs, Puruṣottama Gosvāmī, Viśvambhara Gosvāmī... Akṣayānanda: Oh, I see. No, they were not there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but they were there in the afternoon. You didn't see them, but they were there. Akṣayānanda: Oh, I see. We didn't stay all through in the afternoon. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda's point is that all of the gosvāmīs of Vṛndāvana were attending. Akṣayānanda: What did they say to Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they're attending, Bon Mahārāja, so that means the whole of Vṛndāvana has become Māyāvādī, because they're all attending this meeting. Our men should not attend this meeting any more, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, just see the, how they have functioned. It is our place. We should guard. So, and all the men were accommodated in their room? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They could all fit in the meeting room? Akṣayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: And who was presiding? Akṣayānanda: The Aurobindo. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That guy's a pakka Māyāvādī. That Aurobindo man? Prabhupāda: Aurobind. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He had a big argument with Brahmānanda. Not a big argument, but he was challenging Brahmānanda that "Kṛṣṇa means the divine consciousness. Kṛṣṇa is not a person. He is the... It is divine consciousness." Prabhupāda: Māyāvāda. *Akṣayānanda: I have a plan, Prabhupāda. Myself and Bhakti-prema Swami can go there and sit, and if we hear any discrepancies, if we are given a chance afterwards, which we can arrange, to speak something, then we can rectify*-in a gentlemanly way, of course. We can rectify. If we sit there, at least we know that they'll be careful what they say. And he can catch any finer points that I would miss, 'cause it's all in Hindi. Prabhupāda: They are speaking in Hindi. Akṣayānanda: Everything's in Hindi, the whole thing. No English whatsoever. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then there's no chance of our men becoming... Akṣayānanda: Our men can't understand anything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a good advantage. Akṣayānanda: But for the purpose of maintaining our proper position, we can sit there and hear what they're saying, and when an opportunity is there we can rectify. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Bhakti*-prema may agree with them. Akṣayānanda: No, no, he's... No. No, no Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He used to be a Māyāvādī. Akṣayānanda: Yes. But he understands fully this philosophy and accepts it. Prabhupāda: So this is the position. The whole Vṛndāvana is full of Māyāvādīs. We have to be very, very cautious and careful. I was there. That Brahmānanda protested against that Aurobindo. And then "Don't speak of *Gītā*." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's what they told him. Jayādvaita: They shouldn't speak of *Gītā*. They should speak of whatever other thing they want. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then why call it Gītā*-pratiṣṭhāna? *Jayādvaita: That's Prabhupāda's premise. He's establishing Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Jayādvaita: The actual establishment of Bhagavad*-gītā is being done by Your Divine Grace. They should admit that "We have our philosophy, but as far as Bhagavad-gītā goes, Śrīla Prabhupāda is establishing it all over the world. We have something else, our own idea." They can say that. Prabhupāda: Now find out the way how to stop this class of men speaking in our halls. Akṣayānanda: That's not difficult. We simply... We conduct our own meetings, that's all, Bhaktivedanta Institute. Prabhupāda: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, one thing is that in Bombay... I mean we really don't have a very attractive hall here, but in Bombay we have the most attractive air*-conditioned hall of any place that has a religious temple. All of these people will want to speak in our hall. Not only these people will want to speak in our hall, but all of the nonsense theater people will want to perform there. Prabhupāda: So we must charge. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if we charge, they're going to speak nonsense. If we don't mind speaking nonsense, then it's all right. Otherwise, just like Shubhalakshmi, she may want to give some concert in our hall as a benefit. But she's going to simply sing nonsense. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda? Where is Bhavānanda? Bhavānanda: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, if they pay, we shall allow? *Bhavānanda: I don't think so, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Just like yesterday, I was noticing in their afternoon meeting, they had microphone, and you could hear the speakers outside. I was thinking that this Māyāvādī... Someone is speaking Māyāvādī philosophy, it's polluting the boys. Even you don't understand Hindi, the sound vibration itself is polluting. You once told me, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that to even hear Sanskrit Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam from the mouth of a Māyāvādī, it will poison you. Even you don't understand, just the sound vibration coming from that source is polluting. So what is the necessity for us to rent out our facility to them? Prabhupāda: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Well, the point is that we have not built these temples for profit*-making basis. We have built these temples to demonstrate to the world an ideal, perfect Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if we are going to allow these people to come here, that means we're compromising. Then we should have gone into business... Prabhupāda: Just like to take advertisement in the magazine. Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It's the same thing. We're trying to make something ideal. We don't care if anybody does join or doesn't join, but our business is to show the perfect ideal. Prabhupāda: Jayādvaita? Jayādvaita: I agree. This... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like our Back to Godhead magazine. For a while it was becoming very compromised. Actually it was becoming a little compromised. And just because we wanted... The editors were thinking that they should make it more popular, more acceptable. But our conclusion of all the GBC men was: "Popular or not, we are trying to present the ideal for the topmost men. There must be some ideal institution in the world." So we should keep it pure. And those who want the pure product, they will come and take. And others, at least they will know this is pure. Jayādvaita: Everybody else is already a hodgepodge, so they'll allow anyone to speak because they don't have any scruples. But if we are very strict, if we don't allow anyone who's not strictly following... Prabhupāda: Where is Brahmānanda? Jayādvaita: Brahmānanda? Brahmānanda is resting. Prabhupāda: So, I am on the deathbed. I may go away at any moment. Then... Now it is up to you to give protection to the sanctity of our institution. Who else is there from the GBC? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara, Jagadīśa. Prabhupāda: Svarūpa Dāmodara? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's not here right now, but they are here in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: He has gone to Delhi? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He came back last night. Prabhupāda: Oh. So think over. I am unable to do now. I can simply give you warning. It is very dangerous. Hm? Jayādvaita: We have so many experiences that someone associates with these people and he loses his status. Prabhupāda: They can warn us that "Don't speak of *Gītā*," and why shall I allow them to speak? Eh? Bhavānanda: That is such an insult, especially it's our facility. And as soon as you rent out to people, then you are compromised that they can tell you not to speak of *Gītā* at their *Gītā* conference in your hall. And you have to listen because they're giving you money. Akṣayānanda: Because they're paying. Bhavānanda: It's outrageous. Prabhupāda: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. I mean I'm more concerned about Bombay, because there in Bombay I feel that... I don't think that there's a proper understanding on the part of some of the leaders there about the danger of this. I think that the leaders there are not very clear on this point. I'm a little worried about Bombay. I think that they're... They're going to compromise. There's a danger for compromisation there. Jayādvaita: To be popular. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. To be popular and profitable, they're approaching it on a very businesslike basis. And also the other point is that they're afraid that... In Bombay they've made this hall, such a beautiful hall. So they don't want it to lie vacant or empty, and they just can't think of what can be done inside that hall every single day of the year. It's a fact that hall should be used every day of the year. Bhavānanda: By us. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By us. But since they feel that there's not going to be any constant use from our side, they're thinking that it doesn't make sense to have built and spent so much money on such a good hall and not utilize it daily, which from the business point of view is a fact. But that means that you're going to have to invite all kinds of semi... It's not even Kṛṣṇa conscious. I wanted to say semi*-Kṛṣṇa conscious, but they're going to have to invite different theater people, entertaining people. Bhavānanda: So the Kṛṣṇa conscious solution is to utilize the hall every night for our own purposes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is unlimited. There's so many dramas, so many lectures, so many symposiums. Prabhupāda: No, suppose you construct some house and rent out. Then they can do as they like. So similarly, if that hall is made, constructed for making some money, then the money will not come if we don't rent out to the cinema actors, actresses. It is just like... What is called? Village house. Hm? The hall is called? When one pays, marriage ceremony... For making some money you have made. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that why we made that hall, for making money? Prabhupāda: Otherwise what you will do? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, originally you had intended that that hall would be used for Svarūpa Dāmodara's scientists and for our theater group and things like that. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but are you going to have every day? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I know that they won't. They cannot do that. I mean practically they won't. Bhavānanda: It's possible, but... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it would have to take a tremendous endeavor on the part of our movement, and our movement is not... We're not geared to do that. Prabhupāda: It is like tenant house. So whoever pays to your satisfaction, you give him for one day. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that all right with you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I don't think it is wrong. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Well, then that makes it very easy. Prabhupāda: Because it will be a source of income. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it will be a big source of income. They'll pay a lot of money to use that hall. Not only that, once you let them use the hall, they'll book all the rooms in the hotel at the same time. Prabhupāda: If you are going to do some business, earn some money, you'll have to allow. Bhavānanda: But how that will affect the atmosphere and Kṛṣṇa consciousness of the temple? It's not that the theater... Prabhupāda: Well, atmosphere... Suppose there is temple, and there is the park and other houses, and they are already polluting the atmosphere. You cannot stop it. Is it not? Jayādvaita: All over our movement we have temples, and then next door there's some nonsense place. Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot check the atmosphere all around. That is not possible. (pause) So when you described the number of books, what did they say? Hm? Akṣayānanda: They said it was very nice. They said they were very impressed with that, and that you are doing the greatest work. They... Superficially they say all these things. They must. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They haven't even published one book. Akṣayānanda: They must say these things. Bhavānanda: Of course, Śrīla Prabhupāda, another view is that we've constructed such attractive facilities here, and the purpose is to attract people to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if we let out this auditorium in Bombay and here in Vṛndāvana, so those people will come. They may be Māyāvādī... Actually everyone is Māyāvādī today. So it's a good opportunity for preaching if we're strong. Prabhupāda: Preaching means to convert Māyāvādīs to Vaiṣṇava. Otherwise where is the need of preaching? Bhavānanda: Preaching also means risk. Prabhupāda: Yes. No risk. We take money from them. So we get some money. That is our gain. So anything, do very carefully. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you said we should have a sign, "No Māyāvādī Meetings Allowed." Prabhupāda: No. If this is allowed free. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Well, this wasn't free. They're paying for being here. They're paying to be here. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're paying to hold their program. Prabhupāda: No gratis lecture allowed. If they pay for, they will talk all nonsense, (laughter) and we don't care for it. These are the considerations. That's all right. Turn me this side. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Prabhupāda, you should take some rest now, I think. You've been talking a long time. (end) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sixty*-three thousand copies printed. Kṛṣṇa book in Spanish, three volumes. [break] I think, 50,000. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, 55,000 copies. Beautiful books, Prabhupāda. This is Volume One, Volume Two, and Volume Three, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. Brahmānanda: These are printed in America by the same publisher who publishes the English ones. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now, here's a box. Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, Tenth Canto, Part Two. Prabhupāda: English? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Another edition. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the first time this is published. You haven't seen this yet. Brahmānanda: This is 10.2. Prabhupāda: Oh, Tenth Canto. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, 10.2 There's nothing quite as relishable as seeing your books in the English. It's beautiful. These colors... Prabhupāda: Read it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Read it. From anywhere in particular? "The Killing of the Demon Pūtanā." Should I read the chapter summary? "A summary of the sixth chapter is as follows: When Nanda Mahārāja, following the instructions of Vasudeva, was returning home, he saw a great demoniac woman lying on the road, and then he heard about her death. While Nanda Mahārāja, the king of Vraja, was thinking about Vasudeva's words concerning disturbances in Gokula, he was a little afraid and sought shelter at the lotus feet of Śrī Hari. Meanwhile Kaṁsa sent to the village of Gokula a rākṣasī named Pūtanā who was wandering here and there killing small babies. Of course, wherever there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is the danger of such rākṣasīs. But since the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself was in Gokula, Pūtanā could accept nothing there but her own death." Here's some other books, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Should I show you some more? Teachings of Lord Kapila, the Son of Devahūti. (devotees exclaim) Brahmānanda: You wanted this book. You gave the lectures in Bombay on Kapiladeva's teachings to Devahūti. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah, there's nothing like these books. Upendra: Oh, it's beautiful, green cover. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the form of this book? Brahmānanda: They're Prabhupāda's lectures on the particular verses from that... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One lecture after..., one verse after another. Brahmānanda: Plus the purports. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Text 29, text 28, text 27. It's one chapter of the *Bhāgavatam*. Brahmānanda: Purports and the lectures. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's more books. Brahmānanda: This is beautiful, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: This is another part? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at this! Very high class. You want to lean back, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hand caught. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's a new book. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's called Preaching is the Essence. "His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda." It says, "Compiled by Rāmeśvara dāsa Swami and Śubhānanda dāsa Brahmacārī." It says, "A note of explanation. Every word of the text of this book is taken directly from the books of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder-ācārya of the International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. The text appearing in boldface type is Śrīla Prabhupāda's translations of verses from the Vedic literatures. The text in regular roman type consists of excerpts from His Divine Grace's summary studies and purports. Contents in brief: 1) The mission of the Lord*-to give all living entities the benediction of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. 2) It is the duty of the devotee to preach." Each one of these subjects, then they give verses or purports. Brahmānanda: All about preaching. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In other words, a devotee can use this book to learn these verses which substantiate the following points. These are the points. "3) Preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the highest welfare activity. 4) Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be distributed to everyone without restriction." Prabhupāda: How many copies? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This was printed strictly for the devotees, two thousand copies only. It's meant as like a preaching weapon. "5) One who preaches Kṛṣṇa consciousness is dear to Lord Kṛṣṇa and is protected by the Lord. 6) Kṛṣṇa empowers the preacher. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement spreads by the mercy of Lord Kṛṣṇa and Lord Caitanya. 7) Preaching is based on compassion. 8) The preacher should practice tolerance. 9) To be effective in preaching, the preacher must be pure and follow the regulative principles. 10) Conditioned souls benefit from hearing Vedic literature, kṛṣṇa*-kathā. 11) The future of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement." Should I see what it says under that? Prabhupāda: Hm. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The future of this movement? Page 88. "The future of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement can save the world. 'Kirāta, hūṇāndhra, pulinda, pulkaśa, ābhīra, śumbha, yavana [SB 2.4.18] and the khasa races, and even others who are addicted to sinful acts, can be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord, due to His being the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful obeisances unto Him.' Purport: 'The above*-mentioned historical names are different nations of the world. Even those who are constantly engaged in sinful acts are all corrigible to the standard of perfect human beings if they take shelter of the devotees of the Lord. Jesus Christ and Hajrat Muhammad, two powerful devotees of the Lord, have done tremendous service on the behalf of the Lord on the surface of the globe. And from the version of Śrīla Śukadeva Gosvāmī, it appears that instead of running a godless civilization in the present context of the world situation, if the leadership of world affairs is entrusted to the devotees of the Lord, for which a worldwide organization under the name and style of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness has already been started, then by the grace of the Almighty Lord there can be a thorough change of heart in human beings all over the world, because the devotees of the Lord are able authorities to effect such a change by purifying the dust-worn minds of the people in general.' " Then it gives so many other quotes. "Kṛṣṇa consciousness will spread all over the world." Then it quotes from the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. " 'The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will inundate the entire world and drown everyone, whether one be a gentleman, a rogue or even lame, invalid or blind. When the five members of the Pañca-tattva saw the entire world drowned in love of Godhead and the seed of material enjoyment in the living entities completely destroyed, they all became exceedingly happy. The more the five members of the Pañca-tattva caused the rains of love of Godhead to fall, the more the inundation increases and spreads all over the world.' " [break] Prabhupāda: Jaya. Śrī Nārāyaṇa(?): (Hindi) ...improvement? Prabhupāda: (Hindi) What happened to the car? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Er, do you know the history? *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. First thing they had a flat tire. Then they ran out of gas, and then there was no petrol station. Then they lost the track. They went to some... Prabhupāda: So he missed the plane. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Missed the plane. Coming from Delhi? *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. They were supposed to come here at two o'clock. Prabhupāda: I have got my car, but they arranged for a Mercedes car. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Mercedes car, bigger car, yes. Oh, I see. So that means God didn't want you to leave. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: This is Indian culture. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Indian culture, *Gītā* culture. (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. (Hindi) Whenever there are discrepancies in the human society*-tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham-at that time He appears. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. This is the program. And when He comes, the time is fixed. So unless one thoroughly studies, they cannot accept. Actually Kṛṣṇa... Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. This system, Bhagavad-gītā, it is yoga, bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga is the topmost. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhakto 'si me sakhā ceti. Prabhupāda: Ah. Rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam. "Because you are My bhakta and friend, therefore I am speaking to you the old system," purātanaḥ. No new system. The people now introduce new system. *Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Sanātana*-jñāna he. Paramparā se. Prabhupāda: Paramparā... (Hindi)...purātanaḥ yogaḥ. They introduce their own interpretation. No... (Hindi) There is nothing required. What is that? Sa te 'haṁ yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. Purātanaḥ. Find out. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: People of the world, they're hankering after this civilization. Unfortunately we are miser. We are not giving them... Śrī Nārāyaṇa: All that they should get. Prabhupāda: This is not good. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Where is that Bhagavad*-gītā? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Can you give me the verse? Prabhupāda: Yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. Find out the... Śrī Nārāyaṇa: The... Here it says sixteenth (Hindi). Prabhupāda: Fourth, fourth. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I have the fourth chapter. I'm already in the fourth chapter. Prabhupāda: Read from the very beginning, fourth chapter. Śrī Bajaj(?): (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have the verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) So yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. Eh? Then? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next verse? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Aparaṁ bhavato janma param... [Bg. 4.4] Prabhupāda: No. Sa kālena yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. Read it, paramparā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda: Ah. Purātana, the old system... (Hindi) Yogo naṣṭaḥ purā..., sa kāleneha naṣṭaḥ. (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have a very nice purport here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm. Read it? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "It is clearly stated that the Gītā was especially meant for the saintly kings because they were to execute its purpose in ruling over the citizens. Certainly Bhagavad*-gītā was never meant for the demoniac persons, who would dissipate its value for no one's benefit and would devise all types of interpretations according to personal whims. As soon as the original purpose was scattered by the motives of the unscrupulous commentators, there arose the need to reestablish the disciplic succession. Five thousand years ago it was detected by the Lord Himself that the disciplic succession was broken, and therefore He declared that the purpose of the Gītā appeared to be lost. In the same way, at the present moment also there are so many editions of the Gītā, but almost all of them are not according to the authorized disciplic succession. There are innumerable interpretations rendered by different mundane scholars, but almost all of them do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa, although they make a good business on the words of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. This spirit is demonic because demons do not believe in God but simply enjoy the property of the Supreme. Since there is a great need of an edition of the Gītā in English as it is received by the paramparā disciplic succession system, an attempt is made herewith to fulfill this great want. Bhagavad-gītā, accepted as it is, is a great boon to humanity. But if it is accepted as a treatise of philosophical speculations, it is simply a waste of time." Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) And it is natural. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Natural and it is really marvelous how it has happened. Prabhupāda: They were also hankering. And as soon as they got it, they got life. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Ācchā. You can go. They will talk with me something. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want us to go outside, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Śrī Bajaj: (Hindi) Excuse me. We are just talking alone with him. [break] Prabhupāda: "...after you, who will take the leadership?" And "Everyone will take, all my disciples. If you want, you can take also. (laughter) But if you follow. They are prepared to sacrifice everything, so they'll take the leadership. I may, one, go away, but there will be hundreds, and they'll preach. If you want, you can also become a leader. We have no such thing, that 'Here is leader.' Anyone who follows the previous leadership, he's a leader. 'Indian,' we have no such distinction, 'Indian,' 'European.' " Brahmānanda: They wanted an Indian to be the leader? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) "Everyone, all my disciples, they are leaders. As purely as they follow, they become leader. If you want to follow, you can become a leader. You are Indian. But you don't want." I told them that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they probably wanted to propose somebody who would take over our movement. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Leaders. All nonsense. Leader means one who has become first*-class disciple. He is leader. Evaṁ paramparā-prāpta... One who is perfectly following... Our instruction is āra nā kariha mane āśā **. You know this? What is that? Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete kariyā aikya, āra nā kariha mane āśā **. Who is leader? A leader, to become leader, is not very difficult, provided one is prepared to follow the instructions of a bona fide guru. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why did they want us to leave the room? They wanted us to leave the room. They wanted us to go out when they were talking to you. Prabhupāda: (laughs) They are going away. Now they are finished. One day... What they will talk? Who will hear? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have nothing to talk. Prabhupāda, they said that you are on a coordinating committee. So they want a second person from our Society also to be on the coordinating committee, because you may not always be able to attend the meetings. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll tell them, "No, Prabhupāda said only he alone should be on it." Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) They'll like that. Prabhupāda: I also do not want. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want your name to be taken off? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? (laughs) They're very political, these people. He said to me, "Yes, you name another person. We can help you. We have big contacts with the ministers and others." Brahmānanda: They mentioned Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, that they met with him about some problem with the government. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: They can help in something. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's their idea, that they should have somebody. It's very implicating though. I'll tell you, I wouldn't put anybody on that committee, really. It's very implicating. As soon as you go to that coordinating meeting, you're obligated to give them all kinds of facilities. They have nothing that we want, factually speaking. They have nothing. They have not helped us. (to Brahmānanda:) No, they have not helped us. You're listening to what they say, but I know the facts. I know they haven't helped us. Prabhupāda: Tactfully deal with them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīmān Nārāyaṇa did nothing. Don't get involved with them, because you'll get so obligated. It's better to say that "Prabhupāda said that simply he will be on the coordinating committee. He doesn't want anybody else to be on for now." I'll say like that. For now, you don't want anybody else. You are present, so that you alone will be on it. I like that. Brahmānanda: Don't take Prabhupāda's name off. Prabhupāda: "And in the absence, we shall select another." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I felt very bad whenever they tell me to leave the room like that. I don't like to leave you alone. I get very disturbed. I was standing on the other side of the door. I could not... I didn't like it, to be leaving you alone like that. We're trained always to be with you. Prabhupāda: Hm. Very carefully deal with them. They are trying to come into the institution to grasp the power gradually. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the point. I can understand that. Prabhupāda: How much urine I passed? *Bhakti*-caru: Ninety, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda has not drank that much yet. Did he have milk and barley water? *Bhakti*-caru: Not today.(?) But he doesn't want to take barley and water. (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I'm going to take a short little rest now. Taking a little rest, just short. Then I'll come back. Prabhupāda: Very carefully deal with them. They want to enter into our management. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I'm just thinking about looking... I want to read our memorandum, because as far as I remember, the life members have the right to vote in our Society. That may be one way. They may read the memorandum and see that "We can vote." Then, by doing some politics, they create some difficulty by voting and put one of these materialistic men in charge. Good reason to remain with us, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They won't do anything while you are present. It's better that you should remain with us. Then they won't be able to do anything. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa will protect you. Try. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They're very politically minded. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're not at all interested in the Bhagavad*-gītā. And that purport I read was perfect. That purport that I read was all about doing some nonsense interpretation. That's exactly what they do. Unwilling to admit the Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa, but enjoying the property of Kṛṣṇa-that's their business. Brahmānanda: They do not believe in God. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're atheists. So we'll deal with them very carefully, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Brahmānanda: He's meeting with the Prime Minister tomorrow. Nārāyaṇa is having a meeting tomorrow with the Prime Minister and Defense Minister at the Gandhi Memorial Society. Prabhupāda: Where? Brahmānanda: In Delhi. [break] Prabhupāda: Jaya. (Hindi) Guest (1): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) There is good demand all over the world. (Hindi) "Kṛṣṇa is not person; *Kṛṣṇa is consciousness." (Hindi) Kṛṣṇa personally speaking, and "He is consciousness." He says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. "I come down." (Hindi) Māyāvādī. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has condemned, māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. (Hindi) Yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. Kṛṣṇa said that "I am speaking to you the old yoga system." (Hindi) ...not my interpretation. (Hindi) [break] Kṛṣṇa is person. Where is that verse in the Tenth Canto? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the Bhagavad*-gītā? Prabhupāda: Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. *Bhakti*-caru: Tenth Chapter. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: *Prabhupāda: Puruṣaṁ śāśvatam. Govindam ādi*-puruṣam. [break] This is understanding of Bhagavad-gītā. But they'll not do that. What can be done? They cannot preach Bhagavad-gītā. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye [Bg. 10.14]. Next line? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yan māṁ vadasi keśava, na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ah. (Hindi) "I have come personally." Yadā yadā hi dharmasya [Bg. 4.7]. Bhagavad*-gītā. (Hindi) ...as it is. (Hindi) Bhagavad-gītā as it is, never say. (Hindi) ...imagination... (Hindi) Simply waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu vairāgyam [SB 1.2.7]. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. (Hindi) Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhiṁ sāvāpnoti [Bg. 16.23]. (Hindi) There is good demand all over the world. (Hindi) Nobody can turn them now. Jaya. Thank you very much. *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali) [break] Prabhupāda: What is the report? *Akṣayānanda: They have just... Śrī Nārāyaṇajī and Rāma*-Kṛṣṇa Bajajī have just left. I just saw them off. They are very happy. All the members of the committee, of their committee, they made a prayer that Your Divine Grace would have long life and good health. And regarding their meeting, I simply put their... They had the loudspeaker outside. I just put it inside so no passerby can hear, and they just did their business and left. They had no problems. Prabhupāda: What resolution they passed? Akṣayānanda: I do not know. (Prabhupāda laughs) I could not attend it, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I had to go... Next door we had some work with one bābājī. We had given him money last year, and I had to get that money back for his land. They're given a security. Prabhupāda: Money? Akṣayānanda: Yes. We were using his land for a sewer, water waste. So we had given him two thousand rupees' security. We were going to buy that land. You remember once Your Divine Grace came to see it. We were going to put all that waste water and make a garden and all this. So now we have connected with the municipal sewer line, so there's no need for that land, and that problem is solved. So we took the money back that we had given as a security. I have been there for the last two or three hours, so I was unable to come. Prabhupāda: They have returned the money. Akṣayānanda: Yes, they have returned it. Bhagatji was there. He arranged everything. He is pakka bāniyā. He has arranged very nicely. Prabhupāda: What about the gate? *Akṣayānanda: That's going on. Construction is going on. Saurabha Mahārāja came yesterday, and he has given that idea. He had some objection before. He's clarified that objection. It was an architectural point, just for the beauty. So he's clarified that with the engineer, and it's going on now. I haven't had time, Prabhupāda, to talk to the members*-some of the members are still remaining-about their conference, because I had to go for this work. But I'll go now and meet some of these gentlemen, get some idea what is their aims and objectives and resolutions. Otherwise, unfortunately, I could not be present there. But I'll give you a report. Prabhupāda: Their aims and object is superficially good, that "We altogether preach." But they do not know the ways. That is their defect. Neither they'll take up as it is. So it will be failure. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is already failure. Akṣayānanda: It is failure. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The only success they had here is that they got your darśana and the darśana of Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. In that sense it was a great success. Prabhupāda: They do not want anything. They want to assemble together and have some excursion. Jagadīśa: No more than croaking frogs. *Akṣayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning, in the Bhāgavata class, we read a verse how Bali Mahārāja had been awarded all material opulences by the Lord-because of his devotion, not because of his puṇya. So I gave lecture to the devotees*-in the same way Your Divine Grace, because of your devotion and preaching, Kṛṣṇa has given you every facility for propagating the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and although there are other nice movements in India, actually they should all join you. They should all surrender to you. We want that everyone should actually join us at your lotus feet because you have actually been given all śakti by Lord Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-śakti vinā nahe tāra pravartana. So I told the devotees like this. "Do not be misled by others, even though they may be appearing to do nice work." Actually you are the only one who is really distributing the message of Lord Kṛṣṇa. This is very obvious by the result. These others have not made even one foreign disciple. And if they did make one, he could not give up smoking, drinking and this and that. So there is no benefit whatsoever. Any intelligent person can see. Plus you have given us so much nectar. Prahlāda Mahārāja says mahāmṛta. I always think of that verse. You have given us so much nectar to absorb our minds in. There is really no chance that we will be influenced by these dry personalities. Prabhupāda: Now you take up seriously and distribute. (aside:) It has finished. *Upendra: Twenty*-five. Prabhupāda: Only? Upendra: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda, we are very much relieved that you decided to stay. We are feeling very much happy that you are still remaining here. That trip would have been very difficult for you. (long pause; devotees chanting japa) Prabhupāda: Who's the, is in...? Who's the, is in pot?(?) (long pause) It is finished. Upendra: One hundred. Prabhupāda: One hundred? Upendra: Yes. I think before because you were talking. You were engaging in conversation... Śrīla Prabhupāda, I'll just rub some śuṣka muladi oil on your feet. [break] *Bhavānanda: Actually I think you're the only one on the whole planet who is not Māyāvādī*-Māyāvādī or influenced by Māyāvādī philosophy. Actually until you came to the West, the only philosophy that had come to America from India was Māyāvādī philosophy. No one knew anything else. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Each verse is like a separate lecture, Śrīla Prabhupāda. What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: We shall chant our beads or read book? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which would you like? Prabhupāda: For me, everything is all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we can chant japa for a little while. Prabhupāda: All right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And then we can read again. All right? Prabhupāda: Yes. (devotees chant japa) [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I received some results of book distribution from September, worldwide, very extraordinary figures. Actually they are astounding figures. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is right. He misses news.(?) [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This resting is very good. Kavirāja said that two things, resting and passing urine, are signs of recovery for you. Sleeplessness is bad. But constant resting means that the body is getting a chance to renew itself and take strength. He said that we should look for that resting as a sign of gradual recovery, called "rest and recuperation." (background talking) Prabhupāda: So? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll just get it, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All right feeling. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that all right? Says, "Book distribution, worldwide." Says here... These are the world totals for the month of September, Śrīla Prabhupāda. In the month of September all over the world they distributed the following number of big books: 215,914. 216,000 big books in one month, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Medium books: 226,000 in one month. Small books: 237,000. And Back to Godheads: 433,000. Now I calculated, Śrīla Prabhupāda, also the total amount of money realized by the BBT. In the month of September the BBT sold, the temples sold 675,000 dollars' worth of books. In rupees, I figured out it's fifty*-nine lakhs the BBT sold. Now, the temples, when they..., if they sell a book, they get double the amount of money. You know what I mean? If the BBT sells the book to the temple for say $2.50, the temple gets $5.00 when it sells the book. So I calculated that the temples collected $1,350,000 from selling your books in the month of September, which comes out to one crore, seventeen lakhs collections from book sales. Then I was calculating what this would mean... (end) *Prabhupäda Vigil-*-November 2, 1977, Våndävana Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you called for me? Prabhupāda: No, I was asking how many men we can accommodate in the new building? *Bhavānanda: Comfortably we can accommodate five to six hundred men in first*-class rooms with first-class pakka prasādam. Śrī Bajaj: That's already established and people are already... Bhavānanda: Yes, it's already established. Śrī Bajaj: Functioning. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Śrī Bajaj: But you have plans to further expand and add many more buildings and temples. Because I've seen the big plan. Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda has made a plan for fifty thousand devotees to live there. Śrī Bajaj: Fifty thousand devotees in one place. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: What activities going on, just describe. Bhavānanda: At Māyāpura now we have two hundred resident devotees. We have the handloom, we have our own handloom production. We have prasādam, distribution to the local people on the weekends. Two to three thousand people a day are given prasādam, and during the week seven hundred to a thousand take full prasādam. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Free? All free distribution. *Bhavānanda: Yes. And we have our Gurukula, mainly local boys, resident boarding, no day students. When I left there were eighty*-five boys. Probably it's increased. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: All local. Bhavānanda: All local. Our international Gurukula is here. There is local. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: This is the international, here. Bhavānanda: This Gurukula is international, and our Gurukula in Māyāpura is mainly local Bengali boys, many coming from brāhmaṇa families, very nice. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Then any industries? Hand industries? Bhavānanda: Our handloom. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Handloom. (Hindi) Bhavānanda: And our gośāla is just developing. That area of Māyāpura, Navadvīpa, is a big handloom... Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Yes, handloom area. Bhavānanda: Many handloomers. So we have designs to expand that into a very large area, and most of it will be exported to our temples and devotees all around the world. And all of the handloom workers, they're devotees so they don't take any salary. None of us take any salary. And they get nice rooming and full prasādam and their children are educated. All medicine, everything is supplied to them. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: You could also, perhaps, introduce this new spinning wheel for the yarn. At present you must be purchasing yarn from the mills. Bhavānanda: Yes. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: But have you seen this small nice carakā, spinning wheel? Bhavānanda: Well, we do our own spinning. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Spinning also? Bhavānanda: Oh, yes. We're training up those who have children... They're trained in the varṇāśrama system. Some of the children in the school have a scholastic bent of mind, so they're educated in Sanskrit and higher studies. Some of them have a vaiśya bent of mind, and they work in the gośāla helping to develop..., milk the cows. Some are... Their parents are working in the handloom. They also have that desire, so they're trained to be handloomers. In this way we will be able to develop a city of fifty thousand devotees. Śrī Bajaj: Let us not overstrain him and whatever if... He'll feel tired. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: (Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have our main festival in Māyāpura at the end of March, March 24th. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: March 24th? *Bhavānanda: This year? Dola*-yātrā. Gaura-pūrṇimā. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Our biggest festival. All the devotees from all over the world... Prabhupāda: Recently there was a scientific meeting here. Where is that Statesman report? Śrī Nārāyaṇa: The report from, about Māyāpura? Some literature? Prabhupāda: No, here. We... Just describe. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We had a science conference here in Gurukula just about a little more than a week ago. Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Here in this new building? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the same building, at the same hall that you're going to hold your conference. I invited several scholars, scientists around Delhi and Agra. Also Śrīla Prabhupāda's disciples, scientist disciples, came from around the world. The basic theme was to show that life is coming from the supreme life. In other words everything is coming from Kṛṣṇa. But modern science says that we are just product of atoms and molecules. Haṁsadūta: This is an article which was published in The Statesman, October 22nd, which covers this meeting. It says, "The Nonphysical View on the Origin of Species. Materialists and men of faith continue to disagree over the origins of life. According to the first group life is..." [break] *Room Conversation-*-November 3, 1977, Våndävana Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lay down? (pause) Then I calculated what it would mean for the whole year. Prabhupāda: Now we have to open temple in every village. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Temples in every village? Prabhupāda: Yes. Then spend money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And then spend the money. Prabhupāda: Don't keep money. Spend it. The karmīs, they spend for sense gratification. You spend for Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, there's plenty of money to spend. Prabhupāda: Karmī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We also have plenty. Prabhupāda: No, no, karmī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I understand. I said there's no shortage of money. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa's giving us... I figured out, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if we... Just like we did in September, I multiplied times twelve to see how much money in a year your books are selling. And the BBT, in one year, can expect to make, around the world, about $8,100,000. In rupees that comes out to seven crores, seventy thousand rupees. Seven crores, seventy thousand rupees. Prabhupāda: What karmī can earn so much! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What karmī can earn so much. For the temples, that means that by selling your books, the temples will collect about sixteen million dollars in one year. Or in other words, fourteen crores, nine lakhs, forty thousand rupees. Prabhupāda: They'll believe? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, believe it or not, it's a fact. Prabhupāda: Fact, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually I don't think these men like Bajaj or any of them could possibly make this much money even in material activities, what to speak of spiritual. Spiritual, they lose money. They have to support it. But we have such a genuine religious movement that it supports itself. We don't require to construct big materialistic enterprises. We simply preach, and Kṛṣṇa supplies all the money. Jayādvaita: Bajaj is just burdening the world with motorcycles, and you're providing the highest subject matter for hearing and chanting. Prabhupāda: Where there is need of money, send there. I mean to say, just like Africa and other backwards... I am simply dreaming, and you are actually on the field. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are actually what? Brahmānanda: On the field. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but that's because we're in your dreams. If you weren't dreaming like this, we would be on the material field. *Jayādvaita: It's like Mahā*-Viṣṇu is lying down. The whole material world is being expanded by His dreaming. So you're lying down here, and the whole ISKCON activities are being expanded by your dreaming. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (chuckles) (pause) Do you want to hear some of the newsletter? It says here... This newsletter is written by Rāmeśvara. It's especially meant for encouraging book distribution, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It says, "Later on in the morning, Prabhupāda sent for Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu and explained to him that he wanted to print as many books as possible. 'My point is,' Śrīla Prabhupāda said, 'that I don't wish to keep money in the bank. Invest in printing.' So in this way, although... Then Prabhupāda went on, referring to Harikeśa Swami, after he presented six new hardbound German books to His Divine Grace, 'He is very intelligent boy. My Guru Mahārāja is so pleased. He used to say whatever money is there was to be used for printing books. He was so happy to print books. So you do it all very nicely. I printed my books, and now you do it. These are first class and there is no defect. German printing is very favorable. This is all right. Thank you very much.' It says here, 'Harikeśa Swami told Prabhupāda that now he has to become more healthy to finish the Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda replied, 'Healthy? I have nothing to do with this body. I have to do with the spiritual world.' Bhagavān prabhu mentioned to Prabhupāda how many books his zone was distributing. They are trying for twenty thousand big books in one week. Prabhupāda was very encouraged and told him, 'Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī will give them all blessings. He wanted this very much.' An hour later Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja was in the room and told Prabhupāda that they had printed 100,000 copies of Kṛṣṇa book in Portuguese. Prabhupāda said, 'Thank you very much. Printing of books is our life force.' Prabhupāda looked through the books and again he asked, 'How many published?' When he heard 100,000, 'Oh, how they are selling, and what is the price? Very good collection? Print more books. This is life. This material body*-only bones. So go on and this is life. We are not concerned with bones and stones. Our concern is the living force. The living force is actually sustaining these bones. Bones are not life. Print books as I have shown the way: half again for printing and half spent for propaganda as you like. In this way go on.' Then he turned to Jayapatākā Mahārāja and asked him if he was doing that. He told him, 'Whatever propaganda is needed, you go out and spend, but print books and distribute. Whatever English books we have got, if we translate into Bengali, you have got enough stock.' Jayapatākā Swami replied 'Yes, we have got a treasure house,' and Prabhupāda said, 'In this way, in all languages, distribute. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' " It says here, "Prabhupāda is translating the Third Volume of the Tenth Canto, and Volume Two is now just being printed and will be available for shipping to all temples on November llth along with a new book written by Śrīla Prabhupāda called the Teachings of Lord Kapiladeva. Fifty thousand copies of each volume have been published." Prabhupāda: Fifty copies? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty thousand. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "This is the year of Europe," Śrīla Prabhupāda. It says here, "Here are the totals for book distribution in North America." And Europe is leading. The number one zone is Bhagavān Prabhu's. Number two zone is Jayatīrtha Prabhu's, England. And the number four zone is Harikeśa's zone. So Europe is leading the distribution. Maybe sometime later on today you can do a little translating, Śrīla Prabhupāda. No? Actually the kavirāja recommended that you shouldn't do that for a few days. Does that sound right? Okay. Anyway, I think Pradyumna and Jayādvaita have some work to catch up with, so they have enough to stay busy. Should we chant japa now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. [break] *Brahmānanda: Well they were very stubborn. They simply insisted that there were two paths, and they were quoting Bhagavad*-gītā. I said, "Well, that may be so, but of the two paths, your path is the most difficult, and you've called the conference to spread Bhagavad-gītā, so why are you spreading the most difficult path of Bhagavad-gītā? Why not spread the most easiest?" Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did they reply to that? *Brahmānanda: At that point Mr. Bajaj interrupted and said that we shouldn't discuss Bhagavad*-gītā but just how to promote Bhagavad-gītā and how to cooperate. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While they are busy discussing, we are busy doing it. We have not had any trouble distributing the Bhagavad*-gītās. Even though we have not attended their meetings, the distribution is going on very well. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Practical application is more important than theoretical knowledge. *Bhakti*-caru: That also they don't have. *Brahmānanda: Mr. Nārāyaṇa recognized that about our Society, that we are applying Bhagavad*-gītā. He said, "I see from very early morning hours you are applying Bhagavad-gītā," because he attended the maṅgala-ārati. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was very impressed. He is naturally a devotee, Gujarati. He's naturally a Kṛṣṇa devotee. He can appreciate the importance of ārati and Deities. Brahmānanda: That man from that āśrama... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Aurobindo. Brahmānanda: Auroville. He was poisonous, very poisonous. Mr. Bajaj wanted to conduct the proceedings in English just so that I would be able to understand, because I was sitting as your representative, but that man refused. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did he say? Brahmānanda: Well, he just spoke in Hindi, and he said something in Hindi to Mr. Bajaj that "I want to speak in Hindi," and he continued speaking in Hindi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All artificial platform, surface. "Hindu, Indian, Hindi." Brahmānanda: He was very envious, that Auroville, of what is going on. Jayādvaita: They're nothing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are nothing. No one ever heard of them outside of India. Prabhupāda: Aurobindo never preached in Hindi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) He was speaking in English? Prabhupāda: Um hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You should have said that. "Why don't you follow your master? He spoke in English." That would have been a good point. You could say, "We are following our spiritual master. He speaks in English. Why don't you do the same?" Prabhupāda: He wrote all books in English. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And who can understand those books? Brahmānanda: You remember I brought to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that book I was studying in college when I first came to you. I brought one of Aurobindo's books, Message of *Gītā*. And you asked me to open the book and read one page. So I read the entire page out loud to you. Then you asked me to close the book. Then you said, "Now repeat what you have just read." And I couldn't. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You once described Aurobindo's writing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, giving the example of your childhood friend from school. He had to take the examination. So because he... Instead of writing normally, he made up so many big words, and the professors thought, "Oh, he's very intelligent." *Prabhupāda: (speaks some made*-up words) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you hear that, what Prabhupāda just said, Jayādvaita? Jayādvaita: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You didn't follow the Sanskrit? Jayādvaita: I couldn't hear. Brahmānanda: It's very important. If you can't understand it, it means it's important. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They make up a language. Aurobindo has done like that. His writings are simply so many long words that no one can understand. Therefore they think, "Oh, he's very intelligent. Important philosophy." Your books are so simple and nice, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that even little children take pleasure in hearing Kṛṣṇa book and find no difficulty in understanding. And the biggest scholars, they are also praising. These are your books. I found that Śrīmān Nārāyaṇa was not so envious. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the others were too much. He's not envious. He actually appreciated. He's very eager to come to Māyāpura, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Brahmānanda: During our festival. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He wants to... Especially he said, "I want to come when all of the devotees are there." He's actually appreciating, just like that Mr. Ganatra. He also appreciates very much. Mr. Bajaj is thinking to make a tour around the world of all of our centers. Actually what they have been trying to do for thirty, forty, fifty years, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you have done here in India in the last six or seven years. They don't have one such temple as Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma Mandir, and you have created hundred. Jayādvaita: Prahlāda Mahārāja was telling his father that "You can have conferences all you like, but still you can't understand Kṛṣṇa." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to hear Tenth Canto, Volume Two, Śrīla Prabhupāda, a little bit? Or more of Kapiladeva? Kapiladeva would be nice. Ten, two? Prabhupāda: Any book. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Any book. You know, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was thinking, I'm going to write Rāmeśvara that we should have in Los Angeles a Bhaktivedanta Swami Library with all of your books, many volumes of each book in all the languages. Each different bookshelf will be different languages. Some part of the library will be Spanish publications, German, Dutch, Swedish, Russian, different languages of Europe, Indian languages. And then we'll also have a part of the library for archives. At least one or two copies of every single edition of all of the books. All the previous Back to Godheads, as many as we have even from your original ones published in India. In this way make a Bhaktivedanta Swami Library. People can come and read your books. No matter who they are, what language they speak, there should be at least one library like this. Reading rooms we can have all over the world, and we should have some library also like this. Brahmānanda: They have that for all... Like great presidents of America, they all have a library, memorial library, where all their letters, all their papers, everything is kept. Truman has it, Kennedy has it, Johnson had it. Jayādvaita: That microfilm is there also, Yadubara has it. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that we should always keep you surrounded. We should never leave you alone and always keep you surrounded. So Ātreya Ṛṣi told everyone that, so all the temples, they're going to be sending some devotees to be with you each month. So I think fifty, sixty devotees every month will be with you. So I was wondering if when they come, sometimes they're here, if they chant softly, is it all right if they are in the room? If they chant softly, then even when you feel like resting you'll be able to rest. Because they have come... They'll be coming from five, ten thousand miles to see you. So that'll be very pleasing if they can be with you a few hours each day and chant quietly. Would that be all right? [break] Prabhupāda: Resting. (Bengali) Dr. Kapoor: Can hardly speak. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Resting is good in this case. Best thing. Maybe I can read some nice news, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Would you like that? This is a very nice report, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from Peru. Dr. Kapoor said anyone would fall in love with it at first sight. (laughter) Pañca ought to see the Tenth Canto. This is a new edition of Tenth Canto that has just come out. You'll find some illustrations at the very beginning. Dr. Kapoor: I think you have excelled all other publishers in this art. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are Spanish publications. We were just reading. These are the books that they were distributing, that they were talking about, Kṛṣṇa book in Spanish, three parts. There's also some Spanish nectar that came. Upendra: It's in the other room, I think. Dr. Kapoor: Which other languages have you translated Prabhupāda's books in? French? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, there's I think twenty*-seven languages. French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish... Dr. Kapoor: Oh. All the books are translated? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Gradually, one by one. This is Dvārakeśa. He's in charge of the translating department for East Europe. Which languages do you translate? Dvārakeśa: Russian and Hungarian. And others translate into Yugoslavian and Polish, Czechoslovakian. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has preached in some of those countries already. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Now Bhagavad-gītā in Arabic also. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Arabic, Chinese, Japanese. Twenty*-seven languages altogether. One by one, they're being translated. Some are doing... Of course, the German, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Italian, these are the main languages. And Hindi. These books are going quicker in translation. Shall I finish reading this report, Śrīla Prabhupāda? [break] Dr. Kapoor: It's a miracle what is happening, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's another report, from Africa. Should I read it? It says, "The saṅkīrtana movement in the dark continent." This was written by Jalakāra and Śyāmalāl. Śyāmalāl is a Bengali devotee, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You may remember him from Calcutta? He's gone to Africa to preach, and he and this other boy Jalakāra travel together all over Africa. Prabhupāda: Yesterday... No, yesterday some prominent men, Dalmiya. Who came? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dalmiya was here, Rāma*-Kṛṣṇa Bajaj, Śrīmān Nārāyaṇa, and some gentleman from Auroville Society was here to see you. I think they were participating in that conference, Gītā-pratiṣṭhāna. Dr. Kapoor: I was also invited. I'm sorry I couldn't come because my wife was very ill. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dr. Kapoor could not attend. His wife was very ill, he said. He couldn't attend the conference. Śrīla Prabhupāda, maybe you should rest now a little bit. Okay. (Bengali) Prabhupāda: I'm tired. *Bhakti*-caru: Ācchā. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Would you like to take some nice pomegranate juice? Very good. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Any difficulties? Prabhupāda: Everything difficult. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a gradual recovery, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We can't expect suddenly that overnight there will be recovery. I feel finally that we've understood a little bit what has been the difficulty. I really think this kavirāja has had a little understanding like that. And I think that this Ayurvedic medicine can effect a gradual change for the better. Let us try. We're trying now. We're patient, and if you'll be patient also, then I think we'll see a good change. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: What can be done? Jagadīśa: Do you feel better, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Little more strength? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, the strength is not supposed to come yet. You shouldn't expect strength yet, because strength can't come unless you eat. There's no reason for him to feel strong, because he isn't eating yet. The kavirāja explained that in order for Prabhupāda to eat, first of all the liver and the kidneys have to be properly healed. Then automatically there will be appetite. If there's appetite, then Prabhupāda will eat. [break] *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali) Gaura-govinda Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Gaura*-govinda: It's okay. Bhāgavata has arrived. Bhāgavata has arrived, so I came to have darśana. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Gaura*-govinda: We have been to Jagannātha Purī, and some jagannātha-prasāda we have brought for you. Will you take some? Prabhupāda: (Bengali) What work he gives? (Bengali) *Gaura*-govinda: Now we'll begin construction. Our architect-engineer, Samjata, was there. He was making plans, but unfortunately he passed away the last 23rd. So... Prabhupāda: What happened? *Gaura*-govinda: He suffered from fever. He had some fever, high fever. So he fell unconscious. The doctor came and gave some medicine. The fever was checked, but he gave some high-power medicines that affected his brain, and so he couldn't speak. He just collapsed and stayed still. We came to the hospital that night. Doctor tried his best. He gave saline and oxygen. He stayed the whole night, but at the daybreak he passed away, when the morning came, just on the morning, 23rd morning. It was ekādaśī day. That day he passed away. The day Bhāgavata reached. The very moment Bhāgavata reached there, he passed away. Prabhupāda: Doctor gives treatment, not reliable. They make experiment. *Gaura*-govinda: Yes. *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali about jagannātha-prasāda) Prabhupāda: Not... Kono... Give me some taste. I lost taste. *Bhakti*-caru: (offers miśri-jala) *Gaura*-govinda: It is Bhaktivikāśa Mahāyogī Mahārāja at Bhadrak who has donated that maṭha at Bhadrak? We have started new center? He has come with me to see you. Prabhupāda: Oh. Where is he? *Gaura*-govinda: Here. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivikāśa Mahārāja, daṇḍavat. (Bengali) Bhaktivikāśa: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) What is the position of Bhadrak? *Gaura*-govinda: Bhadrak, there are three devotees now, Ātma-tattva, Kṛṣṇadāsa and Rohiṇī-nandana, and they were preaching and making some members. Bhadrak is a good place for preaching. And I also come there. Just on the 1st November, there was a festival that on that day Caitanya Mahāprabhu arrived there when He was going from Jagannātha Purī to Vṛndāvana. They observe that festival. So they have invited us to speak in that meeting on that day. Bhāgavata and I came. There was a great festival and we do nagara-saṅkīrtana in the evening. In the meeting Bhāgavata spoke and then I spoke. This was very nice. Prabhupāda: People are coming? *Gaura*-govinda: Yes, people are coming. In Bhadrak they have eight acres of land there. It's cultivated land. If we can manage ourselves, then that will be nice. Now this Mahārāja has given it to other agents. They'll take half and give the half. Nobody was there to look after it. So if we look after it now personally, and take it up ourselves, then it will be managed nicely. And there are two cows also, it has got. Prabhupāda: The arrangement is nice. *Gaura*-govinda: It requires a little modification. We made some constructions there for brahmacārīs. There is one Deity room, that is pakka house, and one more... [break] (whispering) ...Anantadeva and Dr. Śyāmasundara. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I've been writing them. *Gaura*-govinda: Yes, they have written letters to Prabhupāda. (whispering) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can talk out loud. You can talk now. You said Anantadeva and Śyāmasundara dāsa Brahmacārī, they were dealing with the pāṇḍās. *Gaura*-govinda: Pāṇḍās. So recently Śyāmasundara Brahmacārī wrote me a letter to come to make Bhāgavata if I went there. He made proposal that we start nirjok sevā(?) there at the Jagannātha temple, Anantadeva's proposal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nirjok sevā? What is that? *Gaura*-govinda: Nirjok sevā means we'll purchase a fireplace, chimney, and also a little cooking. And we'll give him rice, ḍāl, sabji, cooking prasādam, and that would be offered to Jagannātha, Lord Jagannātha. Then they would use the prasādam. They would distribute it or... That is nirjok sevā. That maṭha has appealed like that, "Do this thing." Then they will recognize us, and get permission to enter. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who will get permission? *Gaura*-govinda: There is a committee there. It is pāṇḍā's committee and temple management committee. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But who will be allowed to enter? *Gaura*-govinda: That will be passed in that committee. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but they will allow Western people to enter Jagannātha temple? *Gaura*-govinda: Yes, yes. They have talked with that Anantadeva, but they want money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They want nirjok sevā or they also want money? *Gaura*-govinda: By giving us permission, nirjok sevā, means indirectly they want money. They'll take money. Then they'll give us permission to do nirjok sevā and also, that way, entrance into the Jagannātha temple. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. So how much money? *Gaura*-govinda: I talked with that Śyāmasundara and Anantadeva. He said thirty-six groups are there, nirjoks, pāṇḍā groups. And administrator is there. They want something and all groups want something. (whispering) One lakh of rupee. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One lakh of rupees to see Jagannātha. But we can see Jagannātha in any temple in the world. Why do we have to pay one lakh of rupees? Śrīla Prabhupāda? I was saying that we don't have to pay one lakh of rupees to see Lord Jagannātha in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Let them pray to Jagannātha for my cure immediately, or as soon as possible, I shall do that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If they pray to Lord Jagannātha for your cure... Bhavānanda: Immediately or as soon as possible, then he'll do that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. First they should do the praying. Prabhupāda: Let me be in health. Then I'll do that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you understand? Prabhupāda says that the answer is that first of all they should pray to Kṛṣṇa for Prabhupāda's cure, pray to Jagannātha for Prabhupāda's cure immediately, for his health. And then, when he is physically fit, then he will do the needful. But first of all, by their prayers to Jagannātha, they should make him physically fit. Is that right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who did you have talk with, Anantadeva or Śyāmasundara? *Gaura*-govinda: Anantadeva. Prabhupāda: Who is Anantadeva? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said, "Who is Anantadeva?" *Gaura*-govinda: Anantadeva... They have written letters to you, from that Śyāmasundara Brahmacārī and Anantadeva. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But Anantadeva is connected with which group? *Gaura*-govinda: He is a disciple of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's disciple of Bhaktisiddhānta or Bhaktisiddhānta's disciple's disciple? *Gaura*-govinda: No, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Directly. *Gaura*-govinda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gaura*-govinda Mahārāja says he is your Godbrother, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There's thirty-six pāṇḍās? *Gaura*-govinda: Thirty-six groups nirjoks. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nirjok? *Gaura*-govinda: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...moment I am sick. When I am well enough, I shall do something. Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's a very proper answer. So in order for you to be able to do something, they should pray to Jagannātha. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Girirāja is here. Prabhupāda: Oh. Girirāja? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: How is your health? Girirāja: Oh, I'm better, improved. Prabhupāda: What is the news of Nepal? Girirāja: Oh, well, they have a very nice program there. They have a nice house with many rooms, and the Nepalese people... Prabhupāda: How many rooms? Girirāja: About nine big rooms. And they do street saṅkīrtana every day in the main street, and they distribute literature. And the Society is not yet registered there, but I went with Prabhaviṣṇu to a lawyer, and we've set up the formalities for getting registered, but the government is presently reviewing the registration law, so it might take a few weeks before they accept our case. Prabhupāda: On the whole, it is favorable. Hm? Girirāja: Oh, yes. There is a tremendous scope. And the royal family is very powerful. They run the whole country, and, of course, they're Hindus. So I also went with Prabhaviṣṇu to meet one relation of the Queen Mother, and this lady was very enthusiastic about our activities. So I discussed with Prabhaviṣṇu the strategy how to approach the royal family, and... It's a Hindu state. They don't claim to be secular, like in India, so... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hopeful. Girirāja: Yes, it is hopeful. Then he has one local boy who has joined, Nepali, and he's a very nice boy. I mean, there's so much field for preaching. There's the royal family, then there's membership for the business community, and there's saṅkīrtana and book distribution for the general people, and then also there are many hippies there. So we could recruit devotees from amongst them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The hippies seem to be still our best customers, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The hippies seem to be still very good customers. (Prabhupāda laughs) *Girirāja: That's because Prabhupāda's patita*-pāvana. And the temple atmosphere is nice. It's mainly saṅkīrtana. There are no women there, so very good atmosphere. They have a nice program. They have a love feast program, and many people are coming. I think they can have two or three hundred people coming very soon. And the people are very simple and good natured. Everywhere we went, people would chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They recognized the devotees? Girirāja: Yes. And they're not envious. It seems that in India many of the people are a little envious of us, but everywhere we went in Nepal, it seemed that the people were very happy to see us. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Have you ever been there, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You'd like to go sometime? Prabhupāda: Why not? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. We'll include that on our world parikrama. Girirāja: Actually, the relation of the Queen's mother whom we met, she was also asking about people coming who could give good lectures and enthuse everyone. So I said that you yourself would probably like to come when you're feeling better. So she was really wild about that idea. I'm sure that they would give you a real royal welcome. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good field it sounds like, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Trivikrama: What about the language? Is there problem with language? Girirāja: No. The educated people speak English. In all the schools they teach English, so all the youngsters speak English in Kathmandu. And then most people in Kathmandu, even if they don't speak English, they speak Hindi. And there are just a few who only speak Nepali. But Prabhaviṣṇu has arranged for The Perfection of Yoga to be translated into Nepali. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He sounds like he's doing very good, Prabhaviṣṇu. Girirāja: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good man. Girirāja: He's very good. So he's eager to get that in print. Then they'll be able to distribute literature to everyone without exception. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Do you remember when Prabhaviṣṇu was here you told him to go with "the courage of an Englishman and the heart of a Bengali mother"? He remembers those words. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Courage of an Englishman and the heart of a Bengali mother." Prabhupāda: This is the word of a great poet. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Girirāja's parents took him there, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and they made another offer to him. Prabhupāda: What is that? (Tamāla Kṛṣṇa laughs) Girirāja: Well, no, they... My father has increased the fortune, so he was trying to tempt me again, but I wasn't interested. But I think in the end he may give in to Kṛṣṇa, because we were in... We were helping Prabhaviṣṇu by giving him dollars, and he would give us rupees. So we were in a shop, and my mother was making a check, which she was giving to me to give to Prabhaviṣṇu. So the owner of the shop thought that the check was for him, and he started making some objections. So my father said, "No. In our system the husband gives to the wife, and the wife gives to the son, and the son gives to Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) So everyone laughed. Prabhupāda: Just try to manage. Girirāja: I had a very nice dream last night in which Your Divine Grace appeared. And you were walking around the premises of the Vṛndāvana temple, and there were some doll exhibits. So you were saying that they should improve the quality of the exhibits, because this is their sādhana. So I felt that you were, actually, you were telling me that I should improve the quality of my service and that this was my sādhana, but to be, you know, polite, instead of saying it directly, you were pointing out to their service. And then you started to speak very directly and very boldly, and you were saying... You quoted the verse, Prabhupāda: Anyway, there is a beginning in Nepal. Try to implement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? When you took prasādam today did you find a little taste? Not yet. Did you have any avocado? Prabhupāda: That was little tasteful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. You've been thinking about having that for a long time. You talked about it on and off before. Avocado is said to be very good, nutritious. Prabhupāda: What is the rent of the house? *Girirāja: The rent? It's about twelve hundred rupees, but that's less than one thousand Indian rupees, and it's right on the way to the Paśu*-pati-nātha temple, which is the biggest temple in Nepal. Prabhupāda: Hm. Very famous temple. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You've heard of it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. People go there to see. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How is it on the way? Directly on the way? Girirāja: There's a crossroads which all the traffic passes to go to that temple, and our temple is about just a few hundred yards from that crossroads. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We could put a sign on the road. We have a whole building? Girirāja: Yes. It's a bungalow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. In a compound? Girirāja: Yes. In the compound they're growing flowers and vegetables. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. How many acres? Girirāja: Well, it's about half an acre, but whatever land they have, they're using. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have a lease? *Girirāja: I don't know if they have a lease, but the owner of the house is a Vaiṣṇava, and he's very... Actually his house is next door, and his house is called Viṣṇu*-nivāsa. And when he built the second house, he wanted it to be used as a temple, and he called it Bhagavān-nivāsa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So he's very pleased with the use of the house. Girirāja: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many members they've made there? Girirāja: Well, he's only made two members. I think he's going to get into it a little more. He doesn't have to be registered to make members, because the two members he made... Tax exemption has to be... Each case is considered individually. There's no system, but the lawyer and other people I spoke to felt that, since it was a Hindu state, and since they wanted to encourage such activities, that they would give us tax exemption. There's even a community of Marwari businessmen. So Prabhaviṣṇu had made one or two members by giving receipts from Calcutta, since we're not registered. So I suggested that he should concentrate on the Marwaris for the time being, and he can give receipts from Calcutta, and that would be good practice, because they are the most willing to become members. And then, by the time he got registered, he could start approaching the Nepali businessmen. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How will the Calcutta receipt help them? Girirāja: Well, I don't think... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They care much. Girirāja: No. Just to give them something official. He has seven boys there now, and a few of them ... Prabhupāda: They are taking their prasādam and living there? Girirāja: Yes. They have nice meal in the morning and evening, and then in the day the main activity is they have the chanting party, and around the chanting party they distribute literature. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice beginning, all*-auspicious. Trivikrama: Is the weather very cold? Girirāja: It's not very cold. The climate is very healthful. In fact, two devotees were there who were in India for some time and they felt a little weary, and they both said that they felt that their health and strength had increased. *Bhakti*-caru: It's a beautiful city also. Girirāja: Yes. It's very peaceful and clean. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sounds like a good place to take you sometime, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Girirāja: The air is very, very pure. They hardly have any industry there, and very few motorcars. It's very unspoiled. So the air is clean and the people are also nice. Until a few years ago, there was no system of compulsory education, so the new ideas, Western ideas, have not come very much there. *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like a little soft chanting? Prabhupāda: Hm. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you haven't passed urine in some time. Would you like to try? Prabhupāda: There is no... Bhavānanda: No need. (end) Prabhupāda: Oh, they come to Bombay by car. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They drive from Bombay to Hyder... I've also done that driving. Long trip, ten, eleven hours. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ten or eleven hours, I think. Long trip. Maybe even longer. Prabhupāda: Why kīrtana stopped? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kīrtana? Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's just beginning again, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You like the kīrtana? For a few days we weren't having it. Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta was chanting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want him to chant again? Should he chant some more? Prabhupāda: I think so. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I think the reason that you haven't been having much kīrtana the last two or three days is because Haṁsadūta and Bharadvāja were not here. Isn't that it? Their kīrtana is very sweet. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...Ratha*-yātrā ceremony. *Gaura*-govinda: At Ratha-yātrā Jagannātha came very late for Pāṇḍu-vijaya. It was first time announced that it would take place at nine, but actually it took place at four p.m. Prabhupāda: Why? *Gaura*-govinda: We heard that this year that new body... Jagannātha has a new body, so it was heard that that was not proper time. These pāṇḍās and some people were interested with this business purpose. They did so, and also these pāṇḍās were doing some nonsense inside the temple, so Jagannātha was very much displeased, so it took so much time. Prabhupāda: The pāṇḍās untimely changed the body? *Gaura*-govinda: Untimely they changed. And it was the custom that King Purī-rāja, the king of Purī, would do cara-paraha,(?) this cleaning. But they ill-treated the Purī-rāja. There was some incident previously. So Purī-rāja was not present at that time. He left Purī, and he was somewhere else. So cara-paraha(?) was being done by this baḍa pāṇḍā, pūjā-pāṇḍā. Such mismanagement was there. Prabhupāda: Who was baḍa pāṇḍā? *Gaura*-govinda: There was one baḍa pāṇḍā. I don't know his name. One who does offerings.(?) He is chief of those pāṇḍās. And then, when this pulling of car... That took place just a few minutes before sunset. It was the custom that as soon as the sun set, there will be no pulling. Only Balarāma's car was pulled a few yards, dashed against a (indistinct), and four of the wheels were broken. So then it stopped. For two days there was no pulling unless it is repaired. Then for two days car stopped there. So on the third day it was pulled. The cars were pulled to the Guṇḍicā. Such things happened this year. And we were the only party who chanted before ratha from ten to four. Prabhupāda: Only party means? *Gaura*-govinda: We. Lokanātha Swami's party had arrived, and we are at Bhuvaneśvara, four, five devotees. We were there two days before at Purī, and we went there and we chanted and did kīrtana before the ratha from ten to four. There were much crowd this year, so much crowd that this whole baḍa danda(?) was filled. And above, the top of the roofs, the buildings, were all overfilled. The government people that were broadcasting of radio, they all took photos and also they recorded our kīrtana. They announced in the radio also. This incident took place this year. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We did not have these problems at our Ratha*-yātrā, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Pañca*-draviḍa: The crowds stayed for the third day, or they all left? *Gaura*-govinda: No, they left. Third day there was a thin crowd. They all left. That was the only day when all had come. They left. Fifty percent, seventy-five percent crowd left. Only twenty-five percent stayed. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Was there any criticism? *Gaura*-govinda: Oh, many criticisms. Many criticisms. I also heard. There was one custom that there are some specific persons, pāṇḍās, they would go out all directions to search that wood, specific nim wood from which the new body would be carved. There are some symptoms in the wood, that nim tree. They would find it out. And they go all directions. But this year they never gone anywhere. Last time from where they have pulled up the trees, they went there, and without proper ceremony they cut down the trees and came. This was also criticism. They never followed this thing this year. Prabhupāda: The pāṇḍās are doing... *Gaura*-govinda: Doing all nonsense. These pāṇḍās are so wicked that all were afraid of them. These government people are all afraid of them. The administrator, temple administration, though he's government servant, they are all afraid of them. Prabhupāda: Why? *Gaura*-govinda: Because they are guṇḍās. And these government people, they get vote and come to the power, and these pāṇḍās, they are so powerful that if they will not listen to them, they will topple down their position. They have such apprehension. And publicly also they will create some persecution among them. They have such... That Sadasiva Rath Sharma?(?) That time, Prabhupāda, when you were at Bhuvaneśvara, he came... Prabhupāda: Ah, ha, ha. *Gaura*-govinda: He was telling that when he associated with us, those pāṇḍās told him that "Oh, you have taken some money from these ISKCON people. Therefore you are favoring them." He was criticized, and he was telling me that "Now these pāṇḍās are talking about me like this." Prabhupāda: He's also a pāṇḍā? *Gaura*-govinda: No, he's not a pāṇḍā. He's one of these paṇḍitas of that Mukti-maṇḍapa paṇḍita. He's president. This time, while we were talking with Anantadeva, we said that "Sadasiva Rath Sharma(?) is favoring us, and he gives favorable opinion." Anantadeva said, "No, don't believe him. He's a rascal. He's the most greedy person. He wants much more money." Anantadeva gave this opinion about him. *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? (Bengali) [break] *Prabhupāda: The sanctity of Jagannātha Purī*-lost. Bhavānanda: Is there any pain this side, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Any pain this side? [break] *Prabhupāda: Jagannātha Purī's sanctity they are killing. Thousands of years. Hm? Gaura*-govinda? The sanctity is being... *Gaura*-govinda: Sanctity is lost now. *Prabhupāda: Kali*-yuga. What is happening? Jagannātha Svāmī. *Gaura*-govinda: Those pāṇḍās, they have developed these demoniac qualities and they are forbidding the real devotees to enter into the temple. That is also an offense. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Even our devotees born in Hindu families they won't let into the temple. *Gaura*-govinda: What is that Hindu? So-called Hindu. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Lokanātha Swami even. There is no reason even they should forbid him from going to the temple. Prabhupāda: They are depressing to extract money. Svarūpa Dāmodara: How many pāṇḍās are involved? *Gaura*-govinda: There are many pāṇḍās. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many? *Gaura*-govinda: Hundreds. *Pañca*-draviḍa: These paṇḍitas, Śrīla Prabhupāda... Five years ago I got permission to go into the temple and they let me in the gates, only the paṇḍitas blocked the door. They would not let us in. But we were allowed inside the temple gates and everything. It was only the one paṇḍita came and stopped us. [break] Prabhupāda: Management is in the hands of government? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is the management in the hand of the government? *Gaura*-govinda: Yes, government. One administrator is there. He's governmental power. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the government is being paid off by the pāṇḍās. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is Orissa government. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anantadeva said the government administrator also wants money. They're all in it together. *Gaura*-govinda: That Sadasiva Ratha Sharma, the president of... [break] *Pañca*-draviḍa: The biggest paṇḍitas are all known meat-eaters also. *Gaura*-govinda: Ah, yes! Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They eat meat. *Gaura*-govinda: Meat, fish, everything. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think, Prabhupāda, you mentioned in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta that. *Gaura*-govinda: Many also take all sorts of intoxication and they also go to the prostitute. Everything they do. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How can they serve the Deity? Śrīla Prabhupāda, does Lord Jagannātha reside there any more? Prabhupāda: That is the proof, that it was not in order this year. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was proof, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: That ratha*-cakra broken. *Gaura*-govinda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Does Lord Jagannātha reside there any more? *Prabhupāda: No, He resides everywhere. Jagannātha says, yatra tiṣṭhati mad-bhaktas tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada. Things are deteriorating. That I am lamenting. There is no... For thousands of years sanctity*-they are killing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there anything we can do about it? Prabhupāda: Unless the administration comes to us. Svarūpa Dāmodara: If we pray to Lord Jagannātha so that... [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said, "What you have brought?" Śatadhanya: Bengali portals, big, very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Show him. Wow. Śatadhanya: That one's a little soft, but... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Give him a good one. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fat. Śatadhanya: You'll take, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Also some jinga. Prabhupāda: Very good. Śatadhanya: In Māyāpura, when they heard that Your Divine Grace was coming, it was like electricity. There was... I've never seen anyone so excited as they were. They were electrified. Everyone was... All the Gurukula, little boys who had never even seen... "Prabhupāda is coming! Prabhupāda is coming!" There were shouts all through the āśrama. And everything was very well organized by Jayapatākā Mahārāja for your arrival. Bhavānanda: Mrs. De at the airport? Śatadhanya: At the airport that Mrs. De, who... I think she met you previously. She had told you, "I am also a De." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Remember when we flew to Bombay that lady helped us for getting special seating? Śatadhanya: So she very kindly made all the nice arrangements at the airport. There was a big caravan with flowers to take you to Māyāpura. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You expected Prabhupāda on that plane? Śatadhanya: Yes. We had the car out. Everyone was expecting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They couldn't get through in time to tell them you weren't coming, Śrīla Prabhupāda, so they were all ready at the airport with the cars. Prabhupāda: So we failed to catch. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You must have been surprised when Prabhupāda didn't come out of the plane. Śatadhanya: Surprised? Yes. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They arranged that special lift to take you out of the plane also. Remember when we went in the plane on British Airways from London? That way you don't have to get carried or bounced around, because it's a machine that goes up and down. Prabhupāda: The difficulty is on the, this road. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's very bad. Prabhupāda: What is the condition? Śatadhanya: I came by train just now. Bhavānanda: Kavirāja said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that under no condition should you go on that road. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's lucky that the car didn't arrive in time, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He said under no circumstances can you be taken over that road. Śatadhanya: It must have been Kṛṣṇa's arrangement to protect Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda knew it. Śatadhanya: The weather in Bengal is very nice, very warm and very nice weather. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You saw Mr. Shastri? Kavirāja? Śatadhanya: No, I left that night he was to arrive. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Adri had gotten back? Śatadhanya: Not when I left. Bhavānanda: He left the night I left. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How did he come? By plane? Śatadhanya: The train for free. On Jayapatākā's India Rail pass. You go first class for free. Bhavānanda: Last night I had a dream, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Everyone at Māyāpura, all the devotees, were rolling on the ground and flailing their fists on the ground and pulling their hair and weeping. They were all expecting Your Divine Grace to come. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you have to fulfill their prayer, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Śatadhanya: There's also some news from Māyāpura. Seventeen of the Muhammadans, those Muslims, they have been arrested. Now they're released on bail, but they were officially arrested in Māyāpura. And also Jayapatākā Mahārāja says that the site where they are thinking of building that big temple in Māyāpura, some land has just become available for sale, about fifteen bighās of land. And it ranges from fifteen hundred to twenty*-five hundred rupees per bighā. So Jayapatākā wanted me to tell Your Divine Grace. Bhavānanda: Fifteen bighās, that's five acres. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So why not purchase? Bhavānanda: Right where the, where we want to put the temple. It must be a group of men that the prices vary per bighā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why not purchase? Śatadhanya: Jayapatākā Mahārāja is very anxious to purchase that land. It's exactly where the site for the big temple, at that location. Fifteen bighās. Prabhupāda: Whether he can purchase? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whether he can purchase? If you don't go to Māyāpura, Śrīla Prabhupāda, all of Māyāpura will come here to be with you. Now, if you get a little stronger, we can go. *Śatadhanya: Even the airport officials were disappointed. They were saying, "Where is our Guru Mahārāja?" I was shocked to hear them saying. "Where is our Guru Mahārāja?" They had purchased very nice fruits and vegetables of all different varieties, and Prabhupāda could choose which he liked*-portal, jinga, so many things. Prabhupāda: What other news? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What other news? Śatadhanya: Everything is very nice there, very organized. Jayapatākā Mahārāja and Bhavānanda Mahārāja have organized it very nicely. Calcutta is very clean. Also Calcutta was prepared in case your Divine Grace was feeling tired. Then you could have stayed at Calcutta for a day or so and then gone on to Māyāpura. Many life members had come to the airport. Sita Ram Daga... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think we have to go soon, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Actually, to take you to different places is the greatest ecstasy, because there's no greater pleasure the devotees have than when you first arrive, they see you. Their feelings know no bounds. Airport arrivals have always been ecstatic over the years, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The newspapers always remark how ecstatic they are. Prabhupāda: What is the condition of the road? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This road is hopeless. We have to find an alternate way. *Bhakti*-caru: How about going from Mathurā to Delhi by train? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning you were asking for Bharadvāja? Here he is. We thought of a better way to go, Śrīla Prabhupāda, than car. We'll take the Taj Express from Mathurā to Delhi. It's quite a nice train ride. It takes only one hour and forty*-five minutes, and it doesn't even stop one time. Śatadhanya: I just took it from Delhi this morning. Very clean, very smooth. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We will have one devotee get on in Agra to reserve a compartment for us, and then we'll board it here in Mathurā, and it arrives in Delhi at about nine*-thirty at night, nine forty-five. So then we'll spend the night in Delhi, resting, and then the following morning we'll take the morning flight to Calcutta and Māyāpura. This means also that you won't have to undergo any strenuous journey to Delhi and then immediately take a flight. The train journey is actually much easier than a car journey, and then we get the whole night to rest, which is also good. So basically it just means we take a plane and then the car ride to Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: So I simply go by car from here to Mathurā. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Then we take the Taj Express, which is nonstop to Delhi, then stay in the Delhi temple, which is also nice, overnight, and then we proceed on to Calcutta. The next morning we leave on the plane at six*-thirty in the morning and we arrive in Calcutta by about eight-thirty, and we should arrive in Māyāpura by noon. Does it sound like a good plan? Now you simply should gain more and more strength, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This time, until the kavirāja comes, from now until then, you should rest as much as possible, take these medicines. I think it's having a positive effect. You mentioned this morning that when you sit up you feel a little stronger now. I think it's good that you're not taxing yourself in any way. That's important. Would you like to do something specific right now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: What shall I do? (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, Upendra's saying you might like to wash now your face and teeth. When does Prabhupāda wash his body? Upendra: Two, approximately. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the afternoon. Maybe I should read some news to you? What would you like to do now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: News? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I might have a little bit of news. I'll see. Prabhupāda: In Māyāpura I shall stay in my quarter? Śatadhanya: Yes, Prabhupāda. Everything is very nicely arranged. There's one nice, big bed, this same size, with nice, soft mattress. Prabhupāda: Why another bed? Śatadhanya: The other bed is still there... Bhavānanda: The other bed, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is not wide enough. [break] ...very high. We find for moving you about on the bed, sitting you up and turning you on your side, that it's safer and more convenient if we're able to get up on the bed itself. So the bed that you had at Māyāpura was single bed. It wasn't very wide. This will be much more comfortable for you. Prabhupāda: How long it takes to go to Mathurā? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From here to Mathurā? It would take about twenty minutes. Prabhupāda: Not much. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, within one hour of leaving here you'd be on your way to Delhi on the train. Another thing is that that Taj Express is very much on time. It's never late because it only stops one time between Agra and Delhi, and that's here in Mathurā. It's a very, very exacting train. So we can arrive fifteen minutes before the train is expected to arrive. We don't have to arrive hours before, or anything like that. It's... We'll also make a special arrangement with the train stationmaster that only when he sees that Your Divine Grace is settled comfortably in the train will the train proceed onwards. Prabhupāda: That's nice. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You got one letter, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from the BBT Library Party in America. I won't read it all, but just to sum it up... That Readings in Vedic Literature by Satsvarūpa Mahārāja, that book, remember, that I read some parts of to you? Readings in Vedic Literature Satsvarūpa wrote? It's a short book? That book is becoming very much accepted in university courses. Many, many classes are using it as a textbook, which means that automatically thirty to fifty copies are purchased at a time. And all over the country now, as the Library Party travels, at each college one or two courses use this book now each semester. It's a regular textbook now. Now that they've introduced the study guide to the Bhagavad*-gītā, they expect the Bhagavad-gītā will also become a regular textbook more and more. Actually this is a... The Library Party reports that this is a great future for these books, is that gradually all of these books will be accepted as textbooks, and they will be made mandatory reading in college courses, which means there will be huge sales year after year. Another thing which they're beginning to sell very widely, Śrīla Prabhupāda... See, first the Library Party went to every university in America over the last four years and sold standing orders of the Bhāgavatam and Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Now they're going back this year and starting to sell textbooks, text orders. They've done standing orders, now they're going to the same colleges and they're approaching the professors and saying, "Here's a book for your class as a textbook," which means that the teacher orders thirty copies at a time. So they're beginning to do this now. And they're also beginning to sell the movies. Yadubara's movies are being taken. In each school one or two people are renting these films or purchasing these films as well as slide shows. This is called audio-visual media. The Library Party is starting to sell a lot of the movies and the slide shows as well as tape cassettes. Music courses, for example, want to order tape cassettes of Your Divine Grace singing bhajanas and playing the harmonium as part of a course in Indian music, for example. Prabhupāda: How many of you are going to Māyāpura with me? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are going, ten*-ten on the plane and another four or five on the train. Say fifteen altogether. Śatadhanya: Even more. There was about four or five on the plane that Prabhupāda didn't take. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now, of course, there are more devotees who are coming, just like Citsukhānanda Prabhu and others, so they'll also be going. By the time we go, we may be able to rent a third of the plane or something. At least there will be twenty or twenty*-five devotees maybe. *Bhavānanda: And then they have big caravan arranged, so from the airport or from Calcutta temple to Māyāpura there will be at least forty devotees going with Your Divine Grace to Māyāpura*-the devotees who go and the devotees who greet you there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That we go in big numbers like that? Bhavānanda: Then at Māyāpura there will be at least 150 devotees to greet you. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Running down the road? (laughter) Śrīla Prabhupāda, shall I continue with this report? Another thing that's beginning to happen is that the professors, after getting your standing orders and after teaching with your books in their courses, they are starting to become very friendly to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. For example here is one example cited. He says, it says here, that "Daśaratha Prabhu went straight to the chairman of philosophy who happens to teach in that field, and that chairman also bought a copy of Monograph 2..." which is Svarūpa Dāmodara's science books; *these are also becoming important, "...and promised to review it. During this time, Śeṣa was meeting with Fritz Blackwell, an Asian language specialist who has used Kṛṣṇa book in his course as a textbook and has known devotees for four years. Fritz's exchanges with Śeṣa were so intriguing that we shall simply list them one by one. The two passed in the hallway, not knowing each other, but later, when they met, Mr. Blackwell said, 'Oh, I knew you must have been with ISKCON. No one else would be so nicely dressed.' Śeṣa had corresponded with Mr. Blackwell previously and sent him copies of 'The Hare Kṛṣṇa People' and 'Spiritual Frontier' movies to review for a special national survey of audio*-visual materials on new spiritual movements. Fritz related that ISKCON's response was the quickest among his many suppliers for the project, and when he told his wife the Hare Kṛṣṇas were the first to send their films, she simply replied, 'They would be.' Śeṣa acquired advance copies of Mr. Blackwell's reviews on the two films, which we'll enclose with this report if possible. Introducing Mr. Blackwell to the Readings in Vedic Literature prompted him to say, 'I will definitely use this in my course next year.' He also agreed to send a review by December. Fritz told Śeṣa, 'It's amazing that you've come today. We're just going to start our study of Kṛṣṇa tomorrow. Can you come and speak in my class?' Śeṣa immediately complied. Fritz introduced him as an authority and personal colleague, so the students listened attentively and took notes. Śeṣa used slides to supplement his academic glorification of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Interested, the students asked many questions such as 'Why is Kṛṣṇa blue? What is prasādam?' Fritz was very pleased with the whole thing and gladly helped Śeṣa make arrangements to get another Caitanya-caritāmṛta standing order in the library." They already had one order, and they got another order. "On the same campus, Śeṣa sold a preview order..." Anyway, then they sold some more books. That's just an example of the way professors are beginning to be more and more helpful, and they're actually becoming devoted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They've been very much impressed with the Library Party. The Library Party devotees come in suits with ties. They look very proper. They're scholarly. The books are the most prestigious, scholarly presentations of the philosophy available. And these people, they first ordered the standing order. Now they're ordering course textbooks. And now they're starting to teach your books in the courses, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They're preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness right in the classrooms. So automatically, when the see the devotees, they are very much attracted and friendly with our devotees. They want to take prasādam. So the scholars, who are the most intellectual community in America, are becoming devoted now to Your Divine Grace and this movement. *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? (Bengali) [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I read this letter? It's from Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Swami. Prabhupāda: You have read already. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that was Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. This is Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa, from New Zealand. He says, "Dear Śrīla Prabhupāda..." [break] Prabhupāda: When you gave me that milk? *Bhakti*-caru: This morning, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: What time? *Bhakti*-caru: Quarter past eight. Prabhupāda: And what is time now? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it's about 10:30. Prabhupāda: So, every two hours give me something. Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya! That's nice program. Prabhupāda: Little, little. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That will be... *Bhakti*-caru: Next I'll give you some barley and milk. Would you like to have some bati chachury(?), Śrīla Prabhupāda? Bati chachury? Prabhupāda: Hm. *Bhakti*-caru: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe some fried portal too. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes, fried portal also. Would you like to have some cāpāṭi with that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Cāpāṭi? Or some rice? Prabhupāda: (chuckles) I'll not be able to take. Better not bother. This fruit juice or milk. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, better to take... *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe there's some way, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the portal can be made into a texture that you can easily accept. Once you have to chew it, it's difficult for you. *Bhakti*-caru: I can do one thing-cut the portal in small pieces and let it boil for say hour or two, so all the juice will come out. It will be some kind of a soup. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Portal soup. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Make it in a way that Prabhupāda can take it. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes, there won't be any solid thing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's good. I think liquids are easier for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The kavirāja also said that, that for now, liquids are best. That will be nice. Avocados you can take. *Bhakti*-caru: Next we'll give you at 12:30, so after two hours we'll give you some barley water, barley milk and some avocado, like yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I go on reading, Śrīla Prabhupāda? He says that book distribution is doubling there also. He says, "On the farm we are doing spring planting, and this year seven acres is being put into crops, an increase over last year, since the population has grown. The farm is now famous throughout the country as..." Prabhupāda: If you give me some rest, I can sit down. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we give Prabhupāda some rest... Upendra: Some pillows. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Back rest. [break] "...with your permission we would like to come and visit you sometime later this year, as it has now been so long since I have had your personal association." Do you give him permission to come visit you? Prabhupāda: Why not? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "I am a fallen wretch, but I am hoping and praying to the best of my capacity that your health will improve." [break] Would you like Bharadvāja to sing a little? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can sing now. [break] The kavirāja will be coming back to take us there. Better that we follow his advice and let this medicine work a little while, see if you get some strength, and let him come and take us there as he promised he would do. There is no reason why we should jump ahead. As we have placed ourself under a competent kavirāja, better we take his advice as long as we don't find it to be harmful. Prabhupāda: When we expect? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We expect him to come the day after Diwali. Prabhupāda: When there is Diwali? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Diwali is the 10th or 11th. I think the Marwari community, they celebrate on the 10th. So we expect him on the 11th or by the latest the 12th, which means one week from today. Do you mind waiting that long? Prabhupāda: I was thinking if we have to go, why...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, because he's also said that he will give you some medicine for helping you to take the trip easily. No reason to rush, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Our original reason for delaying was to give you time to get a little more strength. That kavirāja felt pretty confident that if we wait this long, you will get some more strength. I think we should wait. Everyone is feeling that way. You're not unhappy here, are you? Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You look very peaceful, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] He was not talking, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Prabhupāda: "Without your blessings, how can I get compassion?" *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And without your blessings, how could we distribute so many? We directly see the proof of that verse, that the more the Pañca*-tattva saw that these fruits of love of God were distributed, the more they relished. We find in distributing your books that the more we distribute your books, the more blissful we feel. This book distribution is actually a part of our daily lives, just like... It is one of the regulative principles practically. Chant sixteen rounds, follow the four regulative principles, and distribute Prabhupāda's books. Everyone sometime in the day does some book distribution or helps in some way the book distribution. [break] ...distribution has begun, the devotees enjoy it so much that they even like to do book distribution more than the life membership. The ecstasy of approaching people, person by person, simply on the friendship of your books is the highest of all pleasures. [break] Prabhupāda: So far I am thinking, I'm not improving in strength. And how can I improve by drinking little barley and milk and little fruit juice? I have no appetite for anything else. In case I... Most probably, I am diminishing my strength. So... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Most probably diminish your strength? Prabhupāda: Yes, because... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How? I don't see that you're diminishing in your strength. Prabhupāda: Yes, I cannot sit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you haven't been able to sit for a long time. You mean you cannot sit up now even. Prabhupāda: In that also, I am diminished. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. Now when you try and sit up, you always fall over to the side. Prabhupāda: So in case... "In case," no. From the fact I can see that I have no appetite. Then how I can increase strength? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I can only repeat the words of the kavirāja. Prabhupāda: No, that is not... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He states that you can't expect to eat as long as the liver and the kidneys are not functioning properly. Prabhupāda: So that is not functioning. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he says that he can get it to function properly. Prabhupāda: He says, but I practically see. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But his medicine cannot... He also says that his medicine cannot be judged over a period of five or six days. He's not claiming... Prabhupāda: I mean in case I do not increase. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Okay. In case you don't increase. Because I don't think we can say... Unless we want to say that this kavirāja is absolutely wrong. But if we accept... Prabhupāda: You cannot say wrong or right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I agree with that. So we have to say, "in case." So what is your point, Śrīla Prabhupāda? That in case you don't gain strength... Prabhupāda: Than what I will do? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, why don't we decide that when the time comes. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why don't we cross that hurdle when the time comes. Prabhupāda: It is already come. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, no, because we're still saying "in case." Prabhupāda: No, no. Because I don't feel appetite for anything except that little one sip barley and one sip juice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But again the point is that the whole idea of this medicine is that it takes time. Prabhupāda: Practically I have seen that it is not working. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you're not allowing sufficient time, according to the kavirāja. Prabhupāda: What time? I could not... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he says fifteen days. He said fifteen days. He said a minimum of fifteen days. It's been about six days, five days. Prabhupāda: No, no, in case it is not successful. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So why don't we wait for that "in case." Prabhupāda: We are waiting, but in case. (Tamāla Kṛṣṇa laughs) *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Āyurveda doctor was telling that one great factor is your willpower. That's very important. Prabhupāda: I am losing my willpower, because practically I see that I am becoming more and more weak. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said you're losing your willpower? *Bhakti*-caru: Don't you think there has been a slight improvement, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Over last few days there has been a little improvement? Prabhupāda: What is that improvement? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the improvement? *Bhakti*-caru: Your intake has increased. Your voice sounds stronger than before. Prabhupāda: (laughs) What you will do with the voice? *Bhakti*-caru: That's a sign of strength. Prabhupāda: No, no, why don't you consider. In case it is not successful... Upāyān cintayet prajñā apāyān ca cintayet(?). Two things side by side: success or failure. In case it is failure, then what you'll do? You cannot guarantee anything success. Maybe success, maybe failure. If kavirāja's suggestion, if it becomes success, that's very good. But if it is failure... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How can we give a recommendation on this question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? I mean... Prabhupāda: No, no, what you will do? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What we will do next? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then we will go on. We'll go on trying. Prabhupāda: What trying? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well... Go on giving you juice and barley water, kīrtana. Maybe eventually the situation will change. How can we stop trying to feed you and take care of you? Kṛṣṇa can intercede at any moment. Prabhupāda: No, suppose if you want to move me from this place. That is the question. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. We're going to move you if we see some positive improvement. Prabhupāda: That is the point. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was the whole reason for waiting, is that you're supposed to get stronger by waiting. Prabhupāda: We shall wait, but from practical point I cannot drink more than one cup of milk and one cup of fruit juice. That is practically happening. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, that certainly is the fact right now. Prabhupāda: Each... Right now I am... I am thinking it may not improve. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know you are thinking that there will be no improvement, but we are a little hopeful. *Prabhupāda: Hopeful, hope against hope*-that is natural. But I am becoming hopeless. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we are not yet hopeless. Prabhupāda: What is the value of your hope? I am the practical man. Then, if it is failure, what you will do? That I am asking. *Bhavānanda: One thing we could do is begin twenty*-four-hour kīrtana again. Prabhupāda: That's all? I am afraid you may put me in the hospital. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Prabhupāda, we're not going to do that. We already said that we would never do that. Prabhupāda: If you..., what is called, want to move me, so what arrangement will be made? Bhavānanda: What arrangement we have made? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Moving is no problem. But we say that we're not going to move you unless you show improvement. But we're not going to put you in the hospital. That is not going to happen. We can always take up the program of twenty*-four-hour kīrtana. Bhavānanda: Massage. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you can fast. That's... But why should we suggest that at this point? It is not proper for us to suggest that. Obviously we could say that, but that's not very... That means hopeless. So we cannot become hopeless. As your disciples, we can't become hopeless. And putting you in the hospital means hopeless. That's sure. Hospital is absolutely useless. Śatadhanya: Neither we would ever go against your instruction. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's not within our... Śrīla Prabhupāda, we only took you to the hospital in London because Your Divine Grace said we should take you there. Otherwise we were not going to do that on our own. We did not go there on our decision. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that starving and chanting and little gaṅgā*-jala or... In this way let me pass away peacefully. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, first of all let us see this treatment out properly. Bhavānanda: That you can always do. Fasting, that you can always do. But let us see this treatment through. We have hopes in it. And for moving you, what arrangements, that kavirāja has said he will come here and move you personally. But he didn't want to move you for the next fifteen days. Prabhupāda: What you know? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: If there is no actual strength... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. That's why now we won't move you. But if strength comes, then we can move you. The whole reason for going to Māyāpura, one of the main reasons... Prabhupāda: I admit that it will be very nice if I can go to Māyāpura. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But there should be some strength. So we also say that. So let some strength come. Then we'll move you. And if it doesn't come, then we'll stay here. Prabhupāda: Hm. So in case things deteriorate, don't move me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. We're moving you on the basis that you get strength. That's why we're waiting this time. We're not fanatical that we have to be in Māyāpura. The basis of being in Māyāpura was that if you show sign of improvement, then changes for good... Prabhupāda: Then I shall also be very glad. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. So that is the basis for moving you, that there should be some positive strength shown. Prabhupāda: Now there is no strength. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī has come to see you. Shall we have him come in now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Set up the chair. He'll be coming in a minute or two. Prabhupāda: Get one small light. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No Śatadhanya, the one on the right. On the right. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he hasn't come in yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? (Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī chanting japa) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: It is wonderful that he is speaking so nicely, with full sense. *Bhakti*-caru: He's saying that it's wonderful that you are in full consciousness. *Prabhupāda: He doesn't expect this consciousness in this condition. Therefore he is astonished. Actually, physically*-finished, everything. So wherefrom the voice coming and wherefrom intelligence coming? That he is astonished. (Bengali) [break] So fix up this program, kīrtana and whatever little I want to eat, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you'll continue to take the kavirāja's medicines? Prabhupāda: That I'll go on. What is that? If there is any improvement, welcome. Otherwise there is no question of moving me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. [break] There has to be some actual improvement before you should move. Otherwise you are already here in Vṛndāvana, so why move? Prabhupāda: That is my point. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But if actually you can show signs of improving and recovering, then there is reason to move for health. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Traveling now should only be undertaken for health purposes. Prabhupāda: That is welcome. But at the present moment, I don't see any such... (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Why Tamāla Kṛṣṇa gone? Śatadhanya: I'll get him, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Bābājī Mahārāja also I have consulted that "Being afraid, don't move me in the hospital." He also says, "No, don't do." Prabhupāda: What does he say? They will kill? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I said supposing someone threatens us with our life, that "We will kill you if you don't let us take your Guru Mahārāja to the hospital," still, we will not let them take you. Your order is our business to follow, even at the risk of our life. So we are not going to take you to the hospital under any condition. Neither... Not only is it your order, but we also see absolutely no benefit from these hospitals. Your order is sufficient, but apart from that, also, from our own limited intelligence, we also see that the hospitals are condemned. These doctors are blind, these allopathic doctors. Prabhupāda: That is my only request, that at the last stage don't torture me and put to death. So I am not eating anything, and if we chant, by batches chant, I'll hear. (Bengali) *Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) Hari*-nāma-saṅkīrtana. That is the medicine. [break] Prabhupāda: This is the decision, that in case it does not improve, let me die here. If it improves, I shall be very glad to go... (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Improvement hasn't come yet. Simply because you're drinking more, passing more urine, is not the sign of any improvement. (Bengali conversation between Prabhupāda and Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī) (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 4, 1977, Våndävana Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, that legal business? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Girirāja has gone into Mathurā to meet with Mr. Garg to just see that all of the drafts are in order, if everything is in order. Then hopefully tomorrow we can finish it all. Prabhupāda: So it was argument, not that we have rejected. Upāyān cintayet prajñāḥ... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean the treatment? Yes, I have learned to take everything very philosophically, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I mean I took it that you were presenting the..., you know, presenting the whole picture to be considered. Prabhupāda: I am now puzzled. Still, I am thinking. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I thought it was very good what you said in the sense that it... It actually makes everything... It presents a more real picture. We should not be overly optimistic, neither should we be completely fatalistic. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And above all, our whole program here is completely transcendental. It's just like Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī said. Your consciousness is so sublime that it's just wonderful at every moment to be with you. I mean, although I wish that you were... We all wish that you were completely healthy, yet at the same time we have never experienced so much nice exchanges with you. I mean we all... Every moment is so relishable to be with you. So I mean, even this puzzlement is very transcendental. None of us see any of this in any kind of a mundane view. It's all due to your consciousness being so Kṛṣṇa conscious, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I mean to me this puzzlement is simply another proof of the existence of Kṛṣṇa, 'cause Kṛṣṇa certainly is not puzzled. It seems like everything is happening according to His plan. Prabhupāda: Kīrtana may be stopped now. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stop for a while now. For the rest of the night it's good if there's... (kīrtana stops) The kavirāja's assistant came this evening. We hadn't called him. I think he came on his own. He wanted to see how you were. I didn't think there was so much need for him to see you. He's not so senior a man. And the medicine is already prescribed, so what would be the benefit of his coming? We're not going to allow him to change the medicine, so I felt there was no real need. We can... Bhakti*-caru Mahārāja spoke with him, gave him report of how you are. Prabhupāda: He is also educated? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't really know, Śrīla Prabhupāda, how far he's educated. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Seems too young also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Young and... We're pretty lucky, as far as I can see, with that Damodar Prasad Shastri. He seems to be in his own category from all the kavirājas I've ever seen. He really seems different than that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's also Kṛṣṇa conscious. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He really is a little Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Who? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That... The kavirāja that we brought from Calcutta. He's... The thing I liked about him also is I felt that he was the kind of person who I... Somehow I felt that in your childhood or something, that your family would have engaged some such a Marwari... You always said how the Mulliks' house was located amongst many Marwari community people. I was thinking somehow it seemed suitable that this is... Of course we don't designate like that, but somehow it seems suitable that... You know. Marwaris are... They occupy a high place in the community. Everything they do, they do very first class. Their food is first class. They do first*-class business. Most of our members are from the Marwari community. Anyway, it just seemed like it was nice that this man... Prabhupāda: Their food is first class, there is no doubt. Yes... It is certified by Sir P. C. Raya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By who, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: A big chemist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was his name? Prabhupāda: Sir P. C. Raya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: P. C. Raya. Svarūpa Dāmodara: A chemist, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. He's the first chemist who started this Bengal Chemical. *Prabhupāda: He said first*-class food is Marwari, and last class, Madrasi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Madras. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Last class? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Madrasi. *Pañca*-draviḍa: I like this doctor too, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because he was respectful to you. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not only to Prabhupāda. They're always respectful to Prabhupāda. But that he was respectful to the devotees. That was the sign that actually he was respectful to Prabhupāda, because many of them, they show respect to Śrīla Prabhupāda, but they don't respect the devotees, which means they don't really respect what Śrīla Prabhupāda has done. He had a very good appreciation. (pause) Prabhupāda: I had some stool. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Earlier today. That also, I see by the writing, was good color. Actually that's a good sign, that it's being passed naturally, without any artificial means. You may be feeling relief from that. Prabhupāda: Yes. The stool which I was proposing came out by juice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Came out naturally. Prabhupāda: That is good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Did Prabhupāda have barley and milk tonight? *Bhakti*-caru: No, I got it ready. I just came to ask. Śrīla Prabhupāda? (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Hm. Now you can go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I'm always near by. I'm in the house all the time. [break] One thing I feel, that while there hasn't been any great improvement, on the other hand, I do not find that there has been any negative reaction or any regression since the time the kavirāja's treatment began. Of course, Your Divine Grace says that you feel weaker now than you did a week ago. If that's a fact, then... Prabhupāda: Not so very weak. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I do find that you have more difficulty sitting up now. I notice that when you sit up you always slump over to one side, either as if you have no sufficient strength or as if you lost your balance. I can't tell which it is. You're always leaning. You're not able to sit up straight. Of course, that was there also even a week ago, but it seems a little more noticeable now. Do you think you are weaker now than you were a week ago? Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You do? That's not a good sign. I mean I wouldn't expect that you should be that much stronger, but I don't see why you should be weaker now. Do you think it may be psychologically that you're weaker? I mean, how would you know if you were weaker now? Prabhupāda: Because I cannot sit down. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can't sit up. You mean after being sat up you can't stay sitting up? You were never able to sit yourself up. That you were not doing since many months ago. When you say you're not able to sit down, you mean you cannot keep sitting in a sitting position? 'Cause that you were able to do in the last day or two, sitting up. It might be... I don't know, but it may be more psychological, from laying in bed all the time. Naturally there is a feeling perhaps that one is... Weakness also means one's willpower becomes more weaker. Is that possible that that may be it? Prabhupāda: What it is, Kṛṣṇa knows. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, the signs which the kavirāja told us to look for, which would show that things are going well, are definitely present. The fact is that you have been passing more urine every day, nearly double the amount that you previously were passing. And also you're not exerting yourself as much. Up until a week ago you were speaking a lot, translating or otherwise, and this parikrama you were doing was also exerting. So in that respect you're not exerting yourself as much. In other words, all of the things which the kavirāja has asked us to do, we're doing and you're doing. So we should now wait and see. In the meantime, we're here chanting. If you like, we can read. And we're perfectly satisfied to be with you. So I don't see that there's any difficulty in waiting to see the results of the treatment, see if it has actually helped. *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Bhakti*-caru: I asked him if he would like to take some medicine. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda's supposed to take medicine now? He doesn't want to take? You don't want to take your medicine now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: My taking the medicine means I am passing urine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that all right? Prabhupāda: That I do not know. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, according to every physician that we've consulted, Ayurvedic and allopathic, they say that that's very much required. Is it painful to pass urine? Prabhupāda: Sometimes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you should take the medicine as he prescribed. They're not dangerous medicines in any way. Otherwise we won't be able to see the effect of the kavirāja's treatment. (pause) *Prabhupāda: (Bengali with Bhakti*-caru) *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda said that when he turns on his side he feels dizzy, and when he sits up also, towards the beginning, he feels very dizzy. I think that's due to weakness. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, according to this kavirāja, he said that after fifteen days of this treatment, there should be noticeable sign, increased strength. Didn't he say that? So, it's been about one week now, hasn't it? Or maybe not so long. Five days. So for another week or ten days, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we should carry on, and let us see. We're certainly not going to... I think that this is the last kavirāja that we should take the help of. If his medicine works, that's very welcome. And if it doesn't, then I don't think that we should try any more kavirājas or any doctor. We've tried enough. At least for the next week to ten days now we should carry through. At least we've seen that with other kavirājas there were so many negative effects. Remember? Now, with this kavirāja, nothing has even happened badly with the medicine he's prescribed. Rather, exactly as he predicted there would be more urine, more urine is coming. I think the swelling is reducing. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. It has. It's a lot... Another thing is that milk... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Milk you were never able to take. Now you're able to take without producing... I mean there definitely are, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Last night you gave me milk? *Bhakti*-caru: Um hm. You started coughing, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is that? *Bhakti*-caru: Last night Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What time? *Bhakti*-caru: About 8:30. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda was vomiting? *Bhakti*-caru: Not really. Like... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I explained to Bhakti*-caru Mahārāja that when you take something to drink, milk, that when you sit up, at first you should not eat immediately. First of all, you should sit up... [break] I don't think it was due to the milk and barley that you were coughing. *Bhakti*-caru: There are few things. First of all that, as you say, sitting up and taking it immediately after sitting up, and when he was feeling dizzy, then drinking the milk. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's what it is. *Bhakti*-caru: And another thing is that no taste. And Śrīla Prabhupāda wasn't sitting properly. He was very uncomfortable, the way he was sitting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what I'm trying to say. Before you try to drink anything, Śrīla Prabhupāda, first of all you make yourself properly comfortable in sitting. If you're dizzy and you try and drink... Anyone who is dizzy and tries to drink, they're going to start to cough and vomit. *Bhakti*-caru: Another thing might have been that last night in the milk the barley was little thick, little too much of it, so that density was little thick. So from today onwards I'm going to use much less barley so that it's thin and easy to swallow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that... I mean the one thing we're hoping for is the strength. I was saying that the swelling, Śrīla Prabhupāda, very much reduced, very reduced. *Bhakti*-caru: And another thing, Shastriji was explaining that in Ayurvedic medicine the reaction doesn't take place immediately. He was explaining in allopath, when someone is very weak, they give him glucose, intravenous glucose, and that gives immediate energy. But he says that that doesn't work. When the glucose is exhausted, then again he becomes even more weaker. But the kavirāja like that, the strength will come slowly, slowly, but whatever strength is acquired in the body, that stays there. It's permanent. It's not just temporary. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The swelling is reduced. Isn't it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? I mean, all of the signs, Śrīla Prabhupāda, which the kavirāja wanted, are there. *Bhakti*-caru: As a matter of fact, he hasn't given any medicine to strengthen him up. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Did you hear what Bhakti*-caru just said? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Bhakti*-caru: Right now, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Shastriji didn't give you any medicine to strengthen you up as such. His medicines are simply to cure your kidney and liver. When they are cured, then he's going to give medicines like makara-dhvaja which will make you strong. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is one of the reasons I wanted the kavirāja to be with you was to be able to answer your doubts, because I felt that he could far better than we can. But factually speaking, it seems to me there's every... I mean if he were here now he would feel your pulse and he would be able to understand that your pulse is not weak. Your heart is good. You're starting to pass more urine, you're getting sufficient rest, you're able to take things like milk, which you couldn't take before, and these are positive signs. And the one thing that we're looking for, strength, he already said will not come immediately, and he's not even giving any medicine for increasing strength yet. The thing is, we're a little impatient because we've waited so many months and had so many failures with so many different doctors, but really, this doctor, so far, has the best record, his medicines. So we think that you should be encouraged. We feel hopeful. Even if you feel hopeless, we are hopeful. *Prabhupāda: (Bengali with Bhakti*-caru) *Bhakti*-caru: That's 40 grams, stool. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I think you should take the medicine now. Can Bhakti*-caru bring it to you? Prabhupāda: The same medicine? *Bhakti*-caru: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This same medicine will continue till kavirāja comes back and gives new medicine. They are all the same medicine, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There are two different types of medicines. One, I'm supposed to give once in the morning, once in the evening. And another one is in the noontime and late in the evening. And there's one medicine, that's sometime in the afternoon. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not very painful to take the medicine, is it? *Bhakti*-caru: Does it taste bad, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the medicine? Does it taste very bad? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bhakti*-caru: But then it is very bitter or... Because medicine will be a little bad tasting. Very much bitter, no, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Bitter. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. So should I mix it with some sweet? Like... I normally give the powder with glucose so that the glucose will give you some sweet taste. But distilled medicine, the water thin, watery medicine, that is tasteless. It tastes like water. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Let us follow this medicine until its prescribed time, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Give me. (swallows medicine) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This kavirāja feels quite confident, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He is not a fool. He says there's reason to feel quite hopeful. Naturally you are feeling a little hopeless because you've been laying down for so long in bed. Would you like to hear a little bit of one of the books? We'll read some more of the Teachings of Lord Kapila that we were reading yesterday to you? In this way we can pass the time very nicely. Prabhupāda: Who is...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're moving the light over to this side for reading. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This book is wonderful, Prabhupāda, Kapila, Teachings of Lord Kapila. It is a beautiful cover. (Jayādvaita reads from Teachings of Lord Kapila) (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 5, 1977, Våndävana Girirāja: The construction is going on. And this man Mr. Lord, from England, he's getting more active. Prabhupāda: England? *Girirāja: He's about fifty*-year-old gentleman who was the manager of a big club in London. So he had been associating with the devotees in London, and they suggested he come to India and help manage our restaurant and guesthouse. So he was the aide-de-camp of the Viceroy of India. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Remember, I told you about him, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Girirāja: So he knows a little Hindi. He has a very distinguished... Prabhupāda: Which viceroy? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which viceroy? Girirāja: The last viceroy, Mountbatten. And he's very diplomatic in dealing with people. And when he meets with the Indians, they immediately respect him, just like in the old days. So I think he'll be a very good personality to have in the restaurant and guesthouse. People will be happy to meet him. He's tall, he has a nice British accent, and he's following our regulative principles. He's a devotee. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I met him at Bhaktivedanta Manor, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we were there. He came a couple of times, very nice gentleman. He's working without any salary. Simply he asked for a room, and he wants to devote his life. Real gentleman. He's more British than any Britisher I've ever met. Prabhupāda: Forty years? *Girirāja: Well, he's about, I think, sixty years old now. And when he was a young man of twenty he was the aide*-de-camp of the viceroy. And I think he was also the secretary to the governor of Punjab when it was under the British. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He met with Gandhi and all of these other leaders. Girirāja: Then, just after I left... Before that, I spoke to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, and he was arranging for Mahāṁśa Swami and Mr. Polareddy to meet the President of India to invite him to be the chief guest because Mr. Polareddy of Hyderabad knows the present President. And then, so far as the publicity for the opening, we felt that we should actually fix up the chief guest first, because if some big person like the President comes, that will be an important part of the wording of the invitation and the other publicity. Prabhupāda: So finishing? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Construction? Girirāja: Well, the building was not finished. I think that... I mean the inside of the temple and the theater and the restaurant and lobby of the guesthouse and many of the guestrooms will be ready, but the marble work on the domes was very behind schedule. So when I was there only about ten or fifteen percent of the marble on the three big domes was up, and the... Of course, the three domes at the entrance were almost ready. So the three main domes could be finished by the time of the opening, but there will be marble work that has to go on after the opening. Prabhupāda: It will never be finished. When the date is being fixed? Girirāja: Well, we fixed it for January lst and begin the ceremonies on December 29th, which is Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī's Disappearance Day. And... The ceremonies begin a few days before the actual installation of the Deities. So those ceremonies, or yajñas, those will begin on Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta's Disappearance Day, which is December 29th, in about six or seven weeks. And then, a few days later, on January lst, which is the English New Year's Day and Sunday, that will be the actual installation ceremony, and thousands of people will be coming. And we also discussed that there should be very opulent prasādam distribution, and different arrangements for receiving the people and kīrtana and darśana and festival activities. Prabhupāda: Still work is going on. *Girirāja: Yes. Actually on the date that we were planning to open on Dussehra, nothing was actually ready*-even the things that were, we were sure would be ready. But I feel even if some things are not ready this time, most of the things will be. But there has to be some final date, otherwise it will never end. Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas? *Girirāja: Well, before Yaśodānandana Swami left, he had written the brāhmaṇas that the new date was going to be January lst, and I spoke to Yaśodānandana Swami's assistant, Smara*-hari, and he was not sure whether the brāhmaṇas had confirmed this. So he was going to write them today and ask them to confirm that January lst was all right. But he received a letter from Yaśodānandana Swami saying that Yaśodānandana Swami would be coming December 26th. So he's definitely planning to be there in time. And at the time that we postponed the last opening, the brāhmaṇas said that whenever we want to have the opening, they are always ready to come. So it seems that they should be able to come on December 28th or 29th to begin the ceremonies. Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇas must be fixed first of all. Girirāja: Yes. So he said he would write today, and this evening I'll confirm it that he wrote and sent that letter, and then, within a week, we should actually get the confirmation. Otherwise they are very eager to do this and the only thing would be the date. So this afternoon we're planning to execute the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust and also the amendment to your will. So Viśvambhara Prabhu and I are supposed to go to Mathurā now to meet the registrar and some other people. So is it all right if I go now? [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The medicine can be given for ten or twelve days and everything will go exactly according to some plan. This was my point from the beginning. It's not a very difficult thing. The kavirāja probably can adjust very easily to stop stool from passing. Naturally, if you stop the medicine, maybe the stool will stop, but that doesn't actually solve the problem. That doesn't cure the disease. The disease is not that you're passing stool. That's a side effect of, perhaps, the medicine or maybe something you're eating. The medicine is required for getting better, but now, if the medicine causes you to pass stool, if that's actually the reason, then it has to be adjusted. Śatadhanya: Just a couple of days ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were constipated, and you were thinking that it was necessary to take an enema. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But stool*-passing this many times is not right either. Passing stool five, six times, that is not right. It's obvious that it's a result of something. It's either the medicine or the diet. Prabhupāda says it's the medicine, just like last time when he took that makara-dhvaja, and he was right. It was the medicine. [break] ...the best thing to do. There may be some good effect by taking the medicine in addition to the causing you to pass stool. So if by giving you some other small medicine at the same time, you can still take this medicine and you don't pass stool, then that's the best thing. This only a kavirāja knows. I don't know this. I have no idea. Maybe we should take the help of that... This doesn't seem like a very difficult thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Passing stool is something that any kavirāja should be able to treat, and maybe for this small thing we should call that assistant who was here yesterday. That's why that kavirāja from Calcutta arranged for there to be an assistant here, in case... In other words he came and diagnosed the disease, and he made a very complicated thing, medicine that an expert had to make. And for the fact that there might be some side effect, that you may not sleep properly or you might be passing stool, something of this kind, he found out one assistant for the purpose of helping in these cases. So why not carry through with that and take the help of this assistant, see what he says? This is a common ailment that people have, diarrhea or passing stool too often, loose bowels. That's not a very major problem. Prabhupāda: No, you have to stop. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's not necessarily the only solution, to stop. I just explained, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that that is not the only way. Another way may be that they add some other kind of medicine which stops the passing of stool. The medicine you're getting is supposed to be doing good to your kidney and liver. That it causes you to pass stool, that is not good, but at the same time, it may be doing good for the kidney and liver. If you stop taking it, then how will you heal the kidney and liver? Simply by not passing stool, that's not going to heal the kidney and liver. What we want is that you should not pass stool too much and at the same time you can still have your kidney and liver healed. Naturally, if you stop taking medicine, the stool may stop passing. Prabhupāda: And he is not experienced. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I don't know ...He's not as... The point is, for such a thing that you have now, passing stool, I don't think that requires a highly learned kavirāja. That's a common ailment, that someone passes stool too easily. That's not a very difficult ailment to take care of. Prabhupāda: So consult him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. I think this is the time to do that. This is a side effect of taking the medicine. Just giving up taking medicine may solve one problem, but it's not going to solve the main problem. This is to say that we're putting some hope on this kavirāja from Calcutta. If eventually he is shown that his medicine didn't work, then I won't..., I wouldn't say anything. But I'm going on the argument that his medicine is doing some good. So I don't want to see it stopped. So you have no objection if we consult the other kavirāja, do you? Prabhupāda: What can be done? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. I think this is the purpose for which he was chosen, at such a time like this that he should be consulted. I'll tell Bhakti*-caru to consult him. [break] *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Kavirāja assistant: (Hindi) Śatadhanya: Finished with urine, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhakti*-caru, Prabhupāda is talking to you. *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda wants him to come every day, once a day, and check him out. (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hundred cc's, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Your urine was 100 cc's. Prabhupāda: No, urine is all right. Urine, it is all right. I am lying here. He can come conveniently. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhakti*-caru, Prabhupāda says he's lying here, so the kavirāja can come whenever it's convenient, 'cause he's always here. *Bhakti*-caru: Right. That's what I told him. Prabhupāda: And you should pay for that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No problem. Prabhupāda: Appreciate. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Appreciate. There's no problem for that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda is asking him how did he get to know Shastriji. So he said that it's I who took him there and... Kavirāja assistant: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How will we stop the stool? Kavirāja assistant: (Hindi) *Bhavānanda: Bhakti*-caru, what is he saying? *Bhakti*-caru: He's saying that for controlling the stool he's going to just give juice of ginger roots and honey mixed together, and just that. He's not going to give any other medicine for that. Bhavānanda: Gentle. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That will stop the stool? *Bhakti*-caru: He's saying yes. He doesn't want to change this medicine. He says that none of these medicines has any ingredient that might cause stool or might make him pass stool. (Hindi) He's saying that passing stool is due to the old stool that was in the stomach. That is coming out. They are not laxatives, as such. Now I remember, he was telling also, that Shastriji, that Śrīla Prabhupāda's intestine has become shrunk, dried up. Now they are slowly, slowly, they have got to become loose and looser, and this might be one thing like the intestine is loosening, and that is causing the bowels to move. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if that is true, then why stop the stools? *Bhakti*-caru: No, I mean since it's causing inconvenience... He's saying that these two agents are natural digesters, both ginger juice and honey. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Natural digestives? So what does that have to do with stopping the stool? *Bhakti*-caru: Anyway, since he said, we can just try it. (Hindi) He's not actually causing it to stop. He said that it will... Now, last few times, Śrīla Prabhupāda has passed very light stool and liquidish. So ginger root and honey will make it sort of thicker. Bhavānanda: That's all. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. Kavirāja assistant: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: He's asking whether, while passing stool, there's a feeling that stomach has been cleared, kind of a constipated feeling, in spite of... Śrīla Prabhupāda said that it was happening like that before, but last few times it was liquidish. It was watery stool, so there is no question of... Kavirāja assistant: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi with kavirāja assistant and Prabhupāda) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhakti*-caru, what's going on? *Bhakti*-caru: He was wondering about one medicine that has some roots and herbs mixed together and boil it for a long time and just give the extract of that. He was wondering whether that medicine, how I have that medicine... There are different items in it. That vaidyajī already made, mixed it together. So he was wondering about that medicine, how it is, how do I keep it. Kavirāja assistant: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) So he told me yesterday also that there should be continuous prayers. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Kavirāja assistant: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: He said that "I want to see you, your, this very much." (?) Still, we can pay him. I'll do. And this... Send him car. (Hindi) Kavirāja assistant: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: We'll do that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Kavirāja assistant: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: So you do... Account for that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I know. We'll do that. *Prabhupāda: (inaudible*-conversation about paying the kavirāja's assistant's fare to and from his home) [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...notarized copies of everything. This registrar is not the real registrar. He's only a clerk. The registrar is on leave. So because this man is not so experienced, it takes a little extra time to do everything with him. So Girirāja and I have had a little bit of experience, so we had to teach him some things. Now everybody understands clearly. Everything is now completed. Your signatures were quite good, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Your signatures were not bad. Prabhupāda: This thing? What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your signatures were fairly good. Some of them were very good. They remarked that the signature was strong... [break] I tried to make it as quick as possible. Now I have the receipts, and I will keep them locked in the almirah just like we did last time. And after about one week we'll be able to get the original documents after they've been registered. In the meantime, on Monday we're going to open up a bank account in the name of Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust in Punjab National Bank, New Delhi. Girirāja, who is the secretary of the Trust, and Bhavānanda Mahārāja, who are the treasurers, will open the account. So the interest from the fixed deposits will go directly into that account. Is that nice? That was your idea. And the bank will be happy that we're keeping the money in their bank. All of your plans are perfect, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And our perfection is simply to carry them out without changing in any way. You have such complete plans that we don't have to do anything new. We have to work our whole lifetime simply to carry out what you've planned. Even then we won't be able to complete everything. We'll have to trust to those who come after us to finish everything. So I'll just finish everything now with them, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and lock everything away, and then I'll come back. I don't want to leave Girirāja alone. It's nice to do everything together, two. I'll come right back afterwards. [break] Prabhupāda: The Trust deed somebody may read. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. I can bring it just now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I can read it to you personally. Prabhupāda: All right. [break] San Diego, we have got a temple. *Jayādvaita: Oh, yes. We have... They just moved to a nicer location, nicer building. They have maybe seventy devotees. It's quite large temple near the ocean in San Diego. They have... Every year at Govardhana*-pūjā they have a very nice festival in the park. They have chanting and discourse and distribute prasādam. Then in the spring again they have a very nice festival. You were there one time. You spoke. Your Divine Grace spoke at one festival in the park in San Diego. They also go to preach just over the border in Mexico, and many Mexican boys join our San Diego temple, Mexican boys who've come to America. They join our temple in San Diego. The Deity there is very beautiful and very nicely dressed also in San Diego. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Their new temple is very nicely decorated, with arches and everything. Rādhā-Giridhārī. *Jayādvaita: The president is Guṇa*-grāhī Prabhu. He's been a devotee for a long time. The management is also very nicely going on. [break] You sent Bhavānanda there many years ago when they were in Brooklyn and ordered him to make the devotees happy. And ever since then, they've been peaceful... (indistinct) Even before that. I remember when I first came to New York, when the storefront was there. I came on Sunday, and there were so many different preparations. Haṁsadūta Mahārāja was cooking. And so many different preparations. And after taking that feast I decided that I would not leave-"This is too nice." So they're going on, still very opulent, sumptuous prasādam. And people are deciding that "Oh, this is very nice. Let us not leave. Let us go on taking prasādam." And in the restaurant very respectable people come. (pause) Prabhupāda: You read some more. Jayādvaita: Yes, with great pleasure. Teachings of Lord Kapiladeva. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. Jayādvaita: Kṛṣṇa book. Any particular part that you'd like to hear, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Anywhere. From Second Part. Jayādvaita: Second Volume. "Akrūra's Arrival in Vṛndāvana." Is that all right? Prabhupāda: Hm. Jayādvaita: "Nārada Muni did not mention Kṛṣṇa's killing Vyomāsura..." [break] Prabhupāda: ...depend on you. For me, wherever I am kept, I shall remain. This is the position. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Wherever you are kept? Prabhupāda: Wherever you kept, keep, I shall remain. The institution depends on the GBC. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I think that the time that you always were looking forward to*-of the GBC managing things-has come, and that if you can survive, then you can simply be free to translate... Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...chant. Prabhupāda: If I am sane, then I'll do. But in this condition... Ah, ha... Hm. What is to be done now? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is to be done now? In regard to that Trust? Prabhupāda: No, Trust or whatever. I have freed myself from everything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In regard to what were you asking? Prabhupāda: In this condition. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, what we have to do is carry on with this medicine, medical treatment, and let the kavirāja come. Then, when he comes from Calcutta, he'll review everything that's happened and he'll see what your condition is like. And if he feels that the liver and kidney have been cleared up a little bit, then he'll begin to give medicine for giving you strength. And we will make him stay here until you get sufficient strength. And if you do get sufficient strength, which means his medicine is working, then he can take you to Māyāpura. And after some days, if he gives you medicine for strength and you don't get any strength, then there's no reason to leave Vṛndāvana. He may go back, but we will stay here. I think that should be our course of action. We certainly... I've looked just now with Upendra, and pretty much, you've increased by about double what you drink and you've increased by about double the amount of urine. But that's not going to give you strength very much. And the kavirāja has also said that he's not giving any medicine for giving strength at this time. Mostly he's giving medicine which should help the kidney and liver. I can't see inside your body to know if your kidney and liver are better. That he has to say. And if he says that it is getting better, then he can give the medicine for giving strength. And that's something that we can notice. Once he gives the medicine for strength, we'll be able to see if you're actually getting strength. After five or six days, if you're not getting any strength, then we'll know that the medicine is not effective. If it is effective, then we can go with him. You'll have more strength and we can go to Māyāpura. He can take us there and we'll carry on. And if for some reason it's not effective, then we have to trust simply in kṛṣṇa*-nāma. That we're doing anyway, but that's... We'll have to do exclusively at that point. Prabhupāda: Hm. Get on... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Does that sound right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: There is no alternative. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. There's no alternative. There's no question of going to any more kavirājas. This is the last one. He's the best we've found, and if his medicine doesn't work, then let us simply depend on Kṛṣṇa. Bhavānanda: That was fifty and clear, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Fifty and clear. Prabhupāda: Bhavānanda, you are not feeling well? Bhavānanda: No, now I'm feeling better, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're all praying to take some disease from you. We're all praying to take over your disease onto us. Prabhupāda: That is not desirable. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not desirable? Prabhupāda: (laughs) If you all become diseased. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but you single*-handedly can spread this movement better than all of us together. Prabhupāda: That is the problem. You are all become stationed to me.(?) Who will work? Jayādvaita: At least this disease of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very infectious. Everyone catches it from you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They can't find any medicine to stop it. It just keeps going on more and more. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They call it epidemic. [break] ...dream last night that you were eating all kinds of nice fruits. Prabhupāda: What is that sound? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's one of the brahmacārīs shaking out the dust in the rugs. In my office we have some rugs, so he takes them outside and shakes them. He's a nice brahmacārī, young boy from the Gurukula, from Mexico. Is it time to go on, Śrīla Prabhupāda? [break] ...today. So I would meet him last night, and if he was to come this evening I wouldn't think that there would be any harm, that he could come this evening, I think it's not bad in that it sort of sometimes has an effect to encourage the patient if the doctor or kavirāja comes. It's reassuring. So I think it's nice that he comes. There should be someone with a little bit of knowledge who we can consult each day. He may not be as expert as the Calcutta kavirāja. Still, he is more expert than we are. And he was appointed by the Calcutta kavirāja to come and check up on you and see how you are doing, see if there were any side effects. The real question is that your kidney and liver should be getting better. There's no doubt that you're getting weaker now. That I can see. I've never seen you this weak. But according to the... Prabhupāda: Very weak. I sit up..., oh, everything... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Finished. No, I could see that when you were sitting up, everything was becoming dislocated, everything. You can't sit up very much, neither you should sit up, Śrīla Prabhupāda, very much. But I would recommend you to sit up when you have to drink only. This bathing we could do at other times. This drinking, unless you sit up, you won't drink. I've seen that. You don't drink hardly anything. Unless you're willing to let us... See the trouble is that when you lay down and drink, you're used to drinking just a little bit. So if you'll allow us to give you the same amount that you drink when you sit up, then there's no problem. Prabhupāda: How you can? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, just like when you sit up... It's natural, when someone sits up, it's easier to drink. Laying down, it's more difficult. But still, you require the nourishment. You shouldn't decrease your drinking because you can't sit up. It just means you have to be willing to drink the same amount, but drink it while you're laying down. Bhavānanda: Which will take some longer time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's a little more difficult, but it's not that you can't drink. It's just that it takes longer. So if that's all right with you, then we won't even request you to sit up when it's time to give you something to drink. Would that be all right? Okay. *Bhakti*-caru: Can I give you some barley milk, Śrīla Prabhupāda, now? Prabhupāda: Now acceptable. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. How many cc's is that, Bhakti*-caru? *Bhakti*-caru: It's about forty. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Forty. So give Prabhupāda two more of those. Actually, usually you drink about 200 cc's of barley milk, and you've just drank about 50. *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, more. Bhavānanda: You can wait a few minutes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and then, when you're feeling able to, you can take a little more. There's no rushing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's not going to... Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the trouble to take more now? It's a botheration? But that's... At least you should take the same amount you were taking when you were sitting up. Prabhupāda: I cannot. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's difficult. This means you will stop practically getting any nourishment at all now. So then we should call the Calcutta kavirāja. Prabhupāda's not being able to maintain his program. So we'll call the kavirāja from Calcutta, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because now you are not able to keep to the program which he fixed up. And this other kavirāja, he can't do anything this difficult. Usually by this time you've drank about 400 cc's of liquid or more. Today you haven't even drank 100 cc's yet. So in this way you will go back to about two or three weeks ago, when you were planning to depart. So that's a little premature, because we agreed that we will first go through with this program which the kavirāja has given. So now it seems like it's too difficult to do that, so we should call him so that he can... Prabhupāda: What is the use of calling him? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The use of calling is that he... According to him... This is what I understood. The main problem you're feeling is that you have no strength. This is the sum and substance. There's no strength. Prabhupāda: So how he can give strength? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How can he give strength? Just like makara*-dhvaja is for giving strength. *Prabhupāda: Makara*-dhvaja was not giving strength. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that was not makara*-dhvaja. That kavirāja said that was not makara-dhvaja. *Bhavānanda: And he also said that in your condition now you can't take makara*-dhvaja. Prabhupāda: I cannot take anything. I feel comfort only lying down. *Bhakti*-caru: You can take something lying down, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Just a little... Prabhupāda: That I have taken. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes. Then should we give you some more after half an hour? Then you have to take it more frequently then. Bhavānanda: (whispering) But he won't do that. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. This is comfortable. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but this is not the road to recovery. Prabhupāda: But what can I do? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we have to do something. We have to... Prabhupāda: Then that means... That means force me and give me trouble. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that we won't do. But I'm suggesting that if we call the kavirāja in Calcutta, he can suggest some medicine which will give you strength. I mean he has not given you any medicines which he claims will give you strength yet. At least we should give him an opportunity. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think it's a good idea to call kavirāja from Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Hm? Bhavānanda: We're all in agreement that the kavirāja should be called from Calcutta. Prabhupāda: What he'll do? Bhavānanda: Well, that's up to him, to decide what to do. We don't know what he will do, but he has medicines which can give you strength. He wanted to wait some time before administering. But now what would be the loss if he administered them to you now? If they're going to work five days from now, they'll work now. Let us try. There's no loss. And if you get strength, then all gain. The kavirāja said that the one great quality that you have in this sickness is your incredible willpower. If you lose your willpower, desire to remain here, then nothing will work. But he said that if you continue with this strong desire to remain, then it will be easy. Prabhupāda: That strong desire has now disappeared. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? One thing is that this kavirāja's medicine has never had any adverse effects. Everybody else's medicine has had some adverse effects except for his. And in fact, the thing which he said his medicine would do has been done. He said that his medicine would cause you to pass more urine, and that actually has happened. He did not say that the medicine he gave you would make you stronger at this time. So nothing has gone wrong by taking his medicine, and in fact, what he said would happen has happened. He said that after giving that, he would begin to give medicine for giving strength. So what is the harm if we call him and let him give the medicine which he says will give you strength? If it gives you strength, then welcome. And if it doesn't give you strength, then we're not any worse off than we are now. You are feeling hopeless; therefore it doesn't matter to you. But as we are hopeful still, therefore it matters very much to us. He is our last hope. We have to admit, if his medicine does not work, then we simply have to depend solely on Kṛṣṇa. Jayādvaita: Also this kavirāja, he wants to render you some service. It's his desire that he be allowed to render some service to Your Divine Grace. He wants that opportunity. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And he requested us that if such a time as this which now is happening were to come, we should immediately call him, that he would drop everything and come. So why should we not give him that chance to come, if we are still hopeful? Prabhupāda: You can. But I am... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We know that you are hopeless, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but as your disciples, it is our duty to remain hopeful, at least to the point where we should try this last kavirāja. We also accept that if this kavirāja is not successful, then finish with all kavirājas and medicines. (pause) Would you like to have some kīrtana, Śrīla Prabhupāda? [break] The kavirāja is here now. Kavirāja is here. Prabhupāda: How? The young kavirāja, oh. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhakti*-caru and Śatadhanya have gone to Mathurā, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to call the Shastriji from Calcutta. (Svarūpa Dāmodara and kavirāja assistant-Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did he say, Svarūpa Dāmodara? Svarūpa Dāmodara: He said that it's a little increased, the heartbeat. There's a little increase in the pulse. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The pulse has increased? That's good. It is stronger or weaker? Upendra: Did we give him medicine today so far? Bhavānanda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Which medicine? *Upendra: I don't know. Bhakti*-caru never writes which one it is. Bhavānanda: That one that you boil up. Upendra: Oh. What's it say? It's the one you boil, cook for some time. Maybe he knows... It's the one you cook for some time. Bhavānanda: Where is the prescription? [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...cannot drink very much liquid. And if he doesn't drink proper amount of liquid, then what will happen? Svarūpa Dāmodara: (Hindi) Kavirāja assistant: (Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's saying that among those medicine, first one or second one has some ingredients that give some little strength. He's asking whether Prabhupāda was asleep last night. Actually Prabhupāda rested very well from nine to two o'clock last night. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He did? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The problem is weakness. Kavirāja assistant: (Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda said, "No appetite." Kavirāja assistant: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's asking whether Prabhupāda passes air. "Little, little," Prabhupāda says. (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 6, 1977, Våndävana *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Śatadhanya Mahārāja and Bhakti*-caru went to Mathurā and they called Calcutta. They spoke with Adri-dhāraṇa? So he's going to bring the kavirāja here. Prabhupāda: Kavirāja has no telephone. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, he has one. He has telephone at home and in his chamber also. But when we rang up, he was not at home. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore we thought it best not to lose any more time but to call Adri-dhāraṇa, because he's proved to be very capable person-he was living with the kavirāja when he was here*-and we want Adri-dhāraṇa to bring the kavirāja personally anyway. Also, Girirāja and myself were just with the registrar and we made the correction on the name without any difficulty, so now it's correctly given as "Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust." I wanted that because whenever we gave money from the Trust, I wanted to make a plaque with your name on it, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I thought that would be a nice thing to do. This way, now your name will be properly given. So Śrīla Prabhupāda? The kavirāja will be coming quite soon, and I was thinking that you've been a very good patient, taking all of the medicines which he prescribed. So we should not discontinue it until he comes, because that way we can say to him that you have taken everything exactly as he recommended. That way, he'll know certainly how much his medicine has been effective. If we stop the medicine, then he won't be able to tell exactly. And as he'll be here quite soon, I think that we should just finish taking the medicine until he comes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Another thing that we were thinking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that we could see that you don't have much strength for sitting up very much at all. So what we were wondering was that just for the few times that you have to drink, whether we could sit you up for a minute. Not for longer than a minute. Not that you would have to have pillows behind you or anything. Bhavānanda Mahārāja and myself can help you to sit up. And just for a minute, while you drink, you could sit up and then lay down again, just until the kavirāja comes. Our only feeling is that let us just try this medicine till the end. Let us see if it works. Let the kavirāja come, and then he will give us some guidance from there. To sit up for any length of time is not possible. We could see that this morning. But if you try, we can help you to sit up. Bhavānanda and myself will both be behind you, and just while you drink, and then lay down immediately. So that will give you a little strength, drinking something. Prabhupāda: I am, lying down like this, comfortable. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So we will keep you laying like this all the time. Just a few times that there's something to drink, we'll personally pick you up. Then you can drink easily. Then we'll immediately lay you down again. You won't have to sit up for any reason except just only for drinking. Will that be all right? And we'll help you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It won't be any strain. You feel comfortable laying like this? (pause) Śrīla Prabhupāda, your hands are just like lotus petals. [break] Prabhupāda: If there is no appetite, how there will be strength? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, unless there is appetite, there cannot be any genuine strength. Let us see what this kavirāja finally says, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We have to say that he seems to have at least given medicine which has done what he said it would do. That much we have to admit. He did not promise that the medicine would give strength yet. Let him come and let us see. He's a very honest man. He admitted that he cannot guarantee that he can save Śrīla Prabhupāda. He said, "But if anyone can, I promise you that my medicine is effective. I make it myself, and I do it according to the *Vedas*. So if Kṛṣṇa desires, then medicine will have effect of saving Prabhupāda." So that's honest, at least. He's not claiming to be some magician, neither his medicine causes any pain, I think. Sometimes not so tasty, but not painful. *Bhakti*-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Upendra wanted to clean you a little bit. Is that all right? Then after about a half hour or so we'll come back. He's going to clean you now. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? When Upendra gives you your bath, there's some parts of your body he'd like to use soap on. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: Soap? Why? Bhavānanda: Some parts. Like on your upper leg is getting caked from oil and dirt. Just a little soap will take that off, and it will be nice and clean. Prabhupāda: Hot water is sufficient. Upendra: We can't use hot water. It's a dry sponge, just a hot sponge. Prabhupāda: If you can manage, I'll not... Prabhupāda: That's it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In any case, we'll make sure that you're not made uncomfortable, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and not disturbed in any way. And we won't be the cause of any disturbance. So we'll come after a short time, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] (harmonium playing) [break] Bhagatji: Sometimes when I used to come you were sleeping. I'll sit for one hour and then went out. Prabhupāda: Things are going on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhagatji was working very hard, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Too hard. Sometimes he missed his meals in the last two days to do that. I never saw... Even a young man could not work so much as he worked in the last two days. Śrīla Prabhupāda? I think we can... If you allow, Bhavānanda Mahārāja and I can sit you up for a minute to drink a little barley milk? Then you can lay down and take good rest. Taking a little warm thing at night is helpful for sleeping. It's relaxing. We never were used to that, but since we met Your Divine Grace, we're always taking a little warm milk at night. So you'll allow us to give you a little? (pause) *Bhavānanda: Bhakti*-caru Prabhu. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm simply praying that Kṛṣṇa in your stomach accepts everything, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Would you like to lie down now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Pass urine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll lay you down, and you'll pass urine. Okay. We're just getting the bottle. [break] Prabhupāda: (Bengali or Hindi conversation with Indian man) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tomorrow Svarūpa Dāmodara is giving a lecture in Agra, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Indian man: In Agra? In some university? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Agra. Indian man: Good. Prabhupāda: Agra, which? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Agra which university, Svarūpa Dāmodara? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Agra University is composed of several colleges. It's called Agra College, actually. It's the biggest university in Agra. Bhagatji: And Agra University is the biggest university in UP. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Many students. Bhagatji: It contains many colleges outside Agra also. Just in Aligarh, in Mathurā, all are affiliated to Agra University. All other universities in UP are local universities, just like Allahabad, Benares, Lucknow. Prabhupāda: This, our Bon Mahārāja's, that is also... Bhagatji: Affiliated to Agra University, this quarter, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some people came here to the temple from Manipur today, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Did you preach to them, Svarūpa Dāmodara? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They are very impressed. They said they'll come many. They told me they're going to come in many numbers. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about that temple in Manipur? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I was thinking that we can start... Prabhupāda: Receive them nicely. The Manipuri is devotee. Receive them nicely. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Didn't some Manipur devotees visit Caitanya Mahāprabhu in Jagannātha Purī sometimes? Prabhupāda: They go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are all Vaiṣṇavas. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just on the western gate of Jagannātha Purī there is also a place for Manipur. Devotees there, they serve Lord Jagannātha in Purī, special section for Manipur on the western gate of Jagannātha Purī. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Navadvīpa there is Manipur Mandir. Here also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the Maharani of Manipur Mandir in Navadvīpa. Indian man: In Vṛndāvana also Prabhupāda there is one? Which is that? *Prabhupāda: The Sevā*-kuñja. *Indian man: Sevā*-kuñja. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also in Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. *Indian man: Rādhā*-kuṇḍa there is, I know. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Sevā*-kuñja is under the charge of the Manipuri devotees. Prabhupāda: Manipur devotees are very enthusiastic. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So is Svarūpa Dāmodara. (Prabhupāda laughs) Prabhupāda: So Agra University, you lectured professors? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, professors and students, mostly the professors, from all departments: physics, chemistry, mathematics, biology, and philosophy. Prabhupāda: Hm! Svarūpa Dāmodara: They also asked me to bring a film from the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So I'm going to show the "Spiritual Frontier" just after the lecture. So I'll go with the Fairchild, the movie projector. Prabhupāda: Very good. When you have to go? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The lecture is at 3:15, so I'll go about 11 because I like to also talk personally with some professors to become members of the Institute. That's one of our projects. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara is enrolling members, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Indian man: To build his Bhaktivedanta Swami Institute? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. How many members you have so far? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have, so far, four. But one of the biggest men in Agra Medical College, Dr. Malviya, he became a member. He's a very well known biochemist. So he told me that he's going to contribute articles. We would like members, the professors of chemistry, physics, mathematics, biology. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like there is a good future for Bhaktivedanta Institute, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause) Prabhupāda: Who will be president? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who will be president? Of the institute, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, tomorrow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who will be present? President of the meeting? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, it's arranged by the head of the chemistry department. There's one professor called Gupta. He's very enthusiastic. And there are also several professors who came to our conference. All of them are arranging together. There's one Dr. Sukla, also there's one Dr. Sharma. Three, four of them are organizing the lecture. They have... Most of the people I found there, they have great respect for ISKCON, and they appreciate Śrīla Prabhupāda's activities so much. I also requested them it is their responsibility to actually try to spread the genuine knowledge as a real science, scientists. Prabhupāda: Yes. Stories and fables will not convince them. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: I want to briefly outline tomorrow the comparative presentation of two aspects of modern science versus the Bhagavad*-gītā, the varying concepts of life. Prabhupāda: Very good. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We'll outline, saying that modern science thinks that we are children of chance and chemical reactions. But the *Gītā* says we are children of Kṛṣṇa. We are coming from the supremely conscious person. *Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ahaṁ bīja*-pradaḥ pitā? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So these two views, completely opposed. And I'm going to propose that... *Prabhupāda: No, it is a common sense. There is mother and there is children. Where is the father? They have no common sense even. Everything is produced... There are four kinds of living entities: udbhid-ja, sveda-ja, aṇḍa-ja and jarāyu-ja. They do not know anything. You are taking account of the jarāyu-ja, Not udbhid-ja, sveda-ja, aṇḍa-ja. They think the trees are coming automatically. That is their theory. That's not fact. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10]. They do not consider this. A bug is coming from bed*-they think it is automatically. No? The bīja-pradaḥ pitā... There are four kinds of births. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Four kinds of...? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Births. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is that jarāy...? Bhagatji: Man, animal... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Womb. Bhagatji: Womb is everyone. That comes... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sweat? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's one. And womb. Egg. And... *Bhagatji: And aṇḍa*-ja. *Prabhupāda: Aṇḍa*-ja, from eggs. *Brahmānanda: Udbhid*-ja. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eggs, sweat, womb... Prabhupāda: And vegetable. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seed. *Prabhupāda: Udbhid*-ja. They take account of the jarāyu-ja, not other three. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's womb. Prabhupāda: Yes. Embryo. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, embryo. Prabhupāda: So science means to know everything, not only theoretically. They say "automatically." Svarūpa Dāmodara: Their knowledge is so unscientific, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The knowledge that they propose, chance, is so unscientific. Sometimes I wonder. In the name of science they make the most unscientific remarks. Prabhupāda: The answer is there: "Here is my father." They'll not accept. Without father, how there can be son? You do not know who is the father. Why the particular tree is giving particular fruit, particular flower, and this is exactly like...? What do they answer? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They actually have no answer. *Prabhupāda: (chuckles) From the rose tree, why rose flower come, not other flower? This is a species. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. They have no knowledge. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Without coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness it's not possible for them to understand. That is the root cause, that they're trying to assume that everything is coming out of chance. But once they... *Prabhupāda: These people, Gītā*-pratiṣṭhāna, they spoke in Hindi. So there were so many foreigners. If Kṛṣṇa consciousness is meant for Hindu or Hindi, not for others, what do they say? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are... They only spoke in Hindi. That means they're very narrow*-minded. *Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa conscious. And Kṛṣṇa said, ahaṁ bīja*-prada..., sarva-bhūtānām. "Gītā-pratiṣṭhāna." Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don't have even the human respect of a gentleman. The real gentlemen, they won't speak like that. Prabhupāda: For their dealings, they are compact within India. They cannot go out. Who will care for their Hindi? And their nationalism and at the same time they are... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: They are so many false attempt. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don't understand the spirit of *Gītā*. Prabhupāda: No. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, during the two days that they held their meeting, we distributed about thirty thousand Bhagavad*-gītās around the world. Every day we distribute at least ten thousand Gītās per day in different languages. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā sañjaya. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This year, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we will have distributed about two million Bhagavad*-gītās, in different languages. One year. [break] Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: He says that the swelling is much less than before, and there is no weakness in the heart also. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everything is going nicely except that the strength is going away. *Bhakti*-caru: Right, yes. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: When did Śrīla Prabhupāda take foodstuff last? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Foodstuff? Cāpāṭi? Rice? About four months ago. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He took a little bit about a month ago, but it was very little. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Since he left we haven't done parikrama. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: What is the news of Māyāpura? Jayapatākā: Actually everything is going very nicely now. Everyone was... When the news came that you were coming, it spread just like electricity. All of a sudden, all Gurukula boys, all devotees, they started to cry out, "Haribol! Haribol!" jumping up and down. Just within a few moments everyone was immediately jumping. Now the book distributors, they've been very eager to fulfill your order to do hundred thousand books. So already last month they did almost forty thousand. Last week they did twelve thousand books. One party in Assam, they were selling Bengali, mostly Bengali books. They did seven thousand books in one week. Prabhupāda: Which one? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Which book? Jayapatākā: Gītār Gān and Bhagavānera Kathā and... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seven thousand. That's pretty good, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in one week, just for one party. And they have four parties. Jayapatākā: Well, now there's two. But... So we are organizing now so that we'll be able to even distribute thirty, forty thousand big books in a month. Prabhupāda: English? *Jayapatākā: Well, this Vairāgya Vidyā, that will be printed in two weeks, so then we will distribute that. In English there's good scope also, because in my zone, Arunachal Pradesh and Meghalaya, they are English*-predominated state because the Christian missionary have converted everyone. But they found great reception there, although the Christians are... Even the Christians are buying. There seems to be a lot of land for sale right now. About 60 to 80 bighās of land is for sale, and the people are asking the market rates. So it's... We don't have to depend on acquisition. We can just go and buy. Prabhupāda: Can you... If you are able to... (mic moving) Subscribe within our jurisdiction so much land. Otherwise they will sublet(?) it. Why you have purchased agricultural land? Jayapatākā: We will purchase in the... We'll get a permit from the government to hold more land. And until that time, then we'll purchase in the name of Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, Svarūpa Dāmodara. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We can also purchase in the name of Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust. Jayapatākā: A trust can hold fifty bighās of irrigated land, seventy bighās unirrigated. And once we turn that... If we turn that to nonagricultural land, then there's no limit. By paying twice the land tax we can convert to nonagricultural for the purpose of building our temple or building anything, and then it's no longer subject to any ceiling. We will see with lawyer very carefully that... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you can purchase in Svarūpa Dāmodara's name. Bhavānanda: This land is for sale from whom? Muhammadans? Jayapatākā: Yes, both Muhammadan and Hindu. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we buy this land, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Why not? You have got money? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. There is enough money. Jayapatākā: We do not want to rest until every home in Bengal has a copy of Gītār Gān and *Bhāgavatam*. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Gītār Gān is nice. It's attractive. Jayapatākā: About ten new devotees are there now. Every week two or three new devotees are coming. Four of them are college graduate. They're helping answering letters and transcribing. Subhaga has five books that he had written in England. So we got those, and now they're being copies for printing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of books? Jayapatākā: Small books. Beyond Birth and Death, Easy Journey. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Subhaga is doing nicely? Jayapatākā: Yes. Same as usual. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is there Bengali boys, Mahārāja? Jayapatākā: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So how many members are there now, devotees in Māyāpura. Jayapatākā: I don't know. I didn't take the exact count. Two hundred. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two hundred. Big āśrama, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I'm thinking of bringing some Manipuri boys to Māyāpura next time I go. Prabhupāda: Do it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Bring some boys from Manipur. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Manipur boys are very good workers. We saw them in Bombay. Remember, Śrīla Prabhupāda? I brought three of them to meet you. They all looked like Svarūpa Dāmodara junior. Very humble, intelligent, hard*-working. *Jayapatākā: The Manipur Mandir in Navadvīpa, when I was gone they had sent an invitation for attending one function. They're very favorable. When the party went to Assam, then they got invitation to go to Tripura, which is next to Manipur. It's eighty percent Bengali*-speaking and also many Vaiṣṇavas. So we expect to distribute many books there. Next month party will be going to Tripura. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Book distribution has hit India, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Jayapatākā: And, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was thinking that it's very important... We want to complete this temple during your stay here on this planet. Then your life's mission will be... There won't be anything that's left uncomplete if we could just complete the temple. The present... Just meditating that what are the obstacle... Actually we have already enough land for the temple itself, but the temple design... When you first came to Māyāpura, then the temple was going to be 225 feet. Then we asked Saurabha to make a design, and then he made 300 feet. At that time the estimate was fifteen million. Then again he was designing, designing, and it went to 350 feet. Then it went to thirty million. Then it went to 400 feet, fifty*-five million. Now it's up to seventy million. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dollars? *Jayapatākā: Dollars. Every time he thinks about it, he adds fifty feet, and it goes up twenty million. So now all the distributors in the world, they were very eager to see the temple built, but at the present time it requires so much money at seventy million dollars and 450 feet that no one can think of even starting it for five years. But if the temple was 300 or 350 feet and twenty-five or thirty million dollars, which I don't think anyone*-it would be the biggest building even in India and the biggest temple in the world-then it could be started immediately, feasibly. Four temples in America said that if they just get five women each, that means twenty women from the Society, then they could each pledge 25,000 rupees a month for..., in collection. That means $125,000. Plus BBT's $100,000 a month and Gurukṛpā, that would be enough immediately even in the coming year to start the construction of the temple, simply if Saurabha was asked to just make the temple on a thirty million dollar budget, which would be 350 feet or 300 feet. And this is really inspiring the book distributors to have this temple begun, and to complete it within your lifetime, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: My lifetime... (laughs) It is now very brief. At any moment I can... Jayapatākā: We're all praying that Kṛṣṇa will give your strength back. [break] ...neophyte devotees. Without your inspiration, association, it'll be very difficult. Prabhupāda: That Muhammadan, what is his name? Jayapatākā: Which one? Prabhupāda: Back side our... Jayapatākā: Badusheik. Prabhupāda: He is selling the land also? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is he selling? Jayapatākā: Right now he's still asking four thousand rupees, but he seems to be weakening. But he hasn't come down yet in his price. He's not coming around so much because now they have to go regularly to the jail. Bhavānanda: How often? Jayapatākā: They were going once a day. Now it's once a week. So it's a big trouble for them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Including him? Jayapatākā: Yes, he's one of them. He has to go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's one of the men who was... Jayapatākā: Oh, yes. Bhavānanda: He's one of the main instigators. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You should tell him that if he sells at 2000 rupees a bighā that we will not be so severe with him. Jayapatākā: To say stuff like that is very dangerous. They use that, how to say that, in court. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa worked with this man. He was harassing us and now he is harassed. Prabhupāda: Up to three thousand you can take. Four bighās. Jayapatākā: Yes. Prabhupāda: And make a dighi. Jayapatākā: Yes. That Praphulla brahmacārī or Prabhupāda dāsa or whatever he's called, next door, he has built a small temple now. The dome has come up. It's about 45 feet high. Prabhupāda: On top? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Temple with a dome. Jayapatākā: Very narrow one. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is he friendly? Jayapatākā: He's very friendly. He came by and he said that... He recommended about two months ago that for a while we shouldn't say anything to the Muhammadan. Then he will bring the price down. Then mutually we can decide that who will take the land. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants the land? Jayapatākā: He doesn't know if he has the money to buy the land, but he has got some interest to get the land. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why? Jayapatākā: Because he only has one bighā right now, and that land is just next to his. Bhavānanda: Planting? *Jayapatākā: Now planting is going on. Already many flowers and vegetables have been planted, and now the wheat fields are being plowed for planting. [break] ...if the big temple was thirty or thirty*-five stories high, there would be any harm? Prabhupāda: No harm. It is too much. Jayapatākā: The present design is too much. Yes, the present design means that every month, six hundred thousand dollars would have to be given, and that's just too much. Prabhupāda: Too much strain is not good. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also the tendency is that when you make an estimate, you're always higher. You say thirty million dollars*-it's very likely that it will go more. Jayapatākā: Yeah, so then consider. [break] ...his birthday was a couple days ago, and then he invited us. So I sent two brahmacārīs to his āśrama for his birthday celebration. Prabhupāda: His temple is completed? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His nātha*-mandira? Jayapatākā: I didn't ask, actually. I think he's a year older than Śrīla Prabhupāda? Or two years older. *Prabhupāda: At least one year. I want to develop Gauḍa*-maṇḍala. So in yoga-pīṭha they could not build even a darśana-maṇḍapa in fifty, sixty years. So we can construct a, what is called, hall. Jayapatākā: Without mandira. Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. Jayapatākā: Kīrtana hall. Bhavānanda: No. Bhaktivedanta... Yoga Pīṭha Bhaktivedanta Hall. Bhaktivedanta Swami Hall. Prabhupāda: What do you think? *Bhavānanda: With bookstand. Prabhupāda has formed a trust, the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust, and its purpose is to develop Gauḍa*-maṇḍala-bhūmi. Prabhupāda's one idea is to build this darśana-maṇḍapa at the yoga-pīṭha. And another is to finish Śrīdhara Mahārāja's darśana-maṇḍapa at his..., like that, to develop the different..., to encourage cooperation between the different Godbrothers in the temples. The members of the trust are myself and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja and Girirāja, Svarūpa Dāmodara, myself, Mādhava Mahārāja and Madhusūdana Mahārāja. Prabhupāda named those members. Prabhupāda: How do you think the idea? *Jayapatākā: All of your ideas, Śrīla Prabhupāda, are perfect. I am not someone to offer opinion. But if you ask, I think that actually, especially the yoga*-pīṭha, nātha-mandira, that's a very dynamic idea, and in general it must do good. Prabhupāda: We want cooperation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No more noncooperation. *Jayapatākā: Generally the... Even Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha, they had invited us for the disappearance day of Keśava Mahārāja, but I wasn't present at the time. So generally now they're inviting us, and everyone seems to have the desire for more and more cooperation. Mādhava Mahārāja had talked with one, this leader of the Janasangha, now the Janata party constituent, who's Professor Bharati, Haripada Bharati. He's a big orator in the Bidansava.(?) So he's very pro*-ISKCON and pro-Hindu. So he's coming out to Māyāpura the 20th and putting on a public meeting. It's being organized by the local Hindus. And in that time he'll be also visiting our temple. So he was told by Mādhava Mahārāja, who happened to meet him somewhere, that he should give us full support also. He mentioned that. And he's going to give a lecture, and in the lecture he's going to tell the Muslims that they should never do anything like this to another Hindu or Kṛṣṇa temple again. Otherwise their situation will be very... He said they'll be driven out. [break] Dāmodara Mahārāja, he comes around once in a while. I haven't seem him the last couple of weeks, but he's also helping in his way. Yesterday, from the Central Government, one I.B. officer, Inspection Bank officer, came. He said that he received telegraphic information that regarding my citizenship the government was having second thoughts, that maybe they would give it after all, and they requested him to find out my background information and give a recommendation. *Bhavānanda: In regard to the three*-year visas, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa has secured that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually he did not secure it, because it's been given to all religious groups in India. Girirāja informed me. It's being given to all religious groups in India, that they can get three years. The government has passed it. It wasn't specially for us. Jayapatākā: Hindu, Muslim? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyone. Any of these groups that have foreign people in it now will be allowed to stay. It's a general decision. It wasn't... Jayapatākā: Not of ISKCON. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like to take rest now? Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. They must be tired. They traveled all night long. The kavirāja didn't sleep at all, I heard. Is that true, Jayapatākā? Jayapatākā: Yes. The flight was three hours delayed. Three hours he was sitting, and he didn't leave Calcutta... 8:00 flight left at 10:30, 11:00, and arrived in Delhi 1:00. Then it took to 5:00 to get here, so he's quite tired. Prabhupāda: It did not start on time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, three hours delayed. Jayapatākā: The flight was late. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So everyone can take rest now. Jayapatākā: Just seeing Your Divine Grace gives us so much strength. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you can just request Kṛṣṇa to allow you to stay, Śrīla Prabhupāda... Everyone wants you to stay. (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 7, 1977, Våndävana Prabhupāda: (Hindi with Shastriji kavirāja) Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have to give Prabhupāda some strength to go on the parikrama. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He said in three days. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three days. That's good. *Kavirāja: (Hindi with Bhakti*-caru) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But whether Prabhupāda will eat some? Prabhupāda, you will try to eat the Gujarati ruṭi and ḍāl? Prabhupāda: Hm. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: : (Hindi about different foods with Prabhupāda and kavirāja) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to try some mālapuyās later on tonight? *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: Prabhupāda will let us know. (Bengali) One too hot. Just like the way it was today. (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shrikand. That's very good for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, shrikand. Prabhupāda: Oh, shrikand. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a good preparation for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, very nutritious. *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali with Prabhupāda) Prabhupāda: So, where is Bharadvāja? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bharadvāja is here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So you can sing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Softly. [break] Kavirāja says that he has so many nice patients he will not leave. So how he's treating now? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have not inquired about that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. His point was that they depend upon his presence for treatment. That means that even if they were to die because he was not personally available to treat them, he did not think that it was very much important in comparison to treating Your Divine Grace. Because they are materialists, so whether they live or die does not affect anything so much. But because you are a great transcendentalist, your presence means that so many thousands of people can be saved. How are you feeling, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Not so good. I am passing stool. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll bring that to his notice. Now that he's here, all of these things can be adjusted. Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, he explains that because of the fact that you have not eaten for so many months, all of your inside has become dried up and shriveled, and therefore you cannot expect that you'll be healed very quickly. He says it will take time, but it can be done. As far as your passing stool, you are passing so little stool that it's not very significant. Śatadhanya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you passed stool once this afternoon and then in the early morning, previous morning, you passed stool. So actually today has not been a lot of stool at all, and it was very small amount. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So he was explaining that because everything is so dried up and shriveled inside, now we have to make your body used to taking in foods again and giving off the natural secretions and other juices that are necessary. It takes time. He feels that it's certainly possible, and we certainly hope it is possible. Prabhupāda: Turn me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] ...passing is not a very big amount, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Practically it's hardly anything at all. But because it requires for you to be cleaned, therefore you're a little bit bothered by it. Otherwise, in proportion to what you're drinking, it's not unusual. Rather, it's a little healthy, because if you weren't passing it, then we'd have to make it come by giving douche or something. So the kavirāja explained, though, that gradually he has to work on each thing. I'm hopeful, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even though you say you're hopeless. Of course, it's our duty to follow your lotus feet; so whatever your view is, it's our view. But you have to kindly permit us that in this one instance we can have a disagreeing view that although you are hopeless, we should remain hopeful, although it's always our duty to have the same view as you have. Are you desiring to have some kīrtana, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Or would you like to rest for a while. Prabhupāda: Yes, I want rest. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to rest. So we'll keep it very quiet for a while. I'm just writing some letters, so should I continue to do that? Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm in the next room in case you want me. Bhavānanda Mahārāja and Śatadhanya Mahārāja are here. We'll keep everything quiet for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] *Pañca*-draviḍa: ...everything was together. But when you add up our sales, whole zones put together, then they're as big as New York and the other areas now. They are doing nicely. They've also brought you some gifts, one sweater and some warm socks and a scarf for the winter here in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: So keep it. I shall use it. *Pañca*-draviḍa: He also brought one wooden bowl for eating. They brought one wooden plate for eating also. *Bhakti*-caru: Where did they put them at? *Pañca*-draviḍa: In the office. *Bhakti*-caru: That's all right. Someone has got to go and get it. *Pañca*-draviḍa: I can bring it. He also said Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja, he is in Brazil, but he is returning in a little while. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like us to have kīrtana? Prabhupāda: Hm. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we've brought some juice, grape juice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can sit you up, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That will make it easier to drink. Bhavānanda Mahārāja and myself are here. We can hold you up for a minute? Prabhupāda: Hm. Drink for a minute. Bhavānanda: Only for a minute. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Should we hold you up for a minute? Prabhupāda: So if I eat here...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Laying down? Prabhupāda: What is wrong? Bhavānanda: The only problem is then the tendency is to take less. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's easier to drink when one sits up. We can hold you up. (harmonium and kīrtana) Prabhupāda: It is warm now. Hm. [break] What Shastriji said? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. I had a nice talk with Shastriji, very detailed talk. He explained that the main... He said we have brought you to him at the very last possible moment. He said had we come six months earlier, so much easier it would have been. He said this time that we have called him just now was just timely that he came back again. He said that the main problem is the kidney. He said the kidney is working, otherwise you could not pass urine. And the medicine which he has given over the past week has had an effect, because the urine is increased. He explains that the whole body, there's very little blood due to not having eaten for so many months, and there's great weakness because of this. He says the muscles are all more or less gone; *therefore you have no strength, because the blood is not there. And because you're so weak, he can't give strong medicine, because it will be too strong for you. He has to give it very, very carefully and slowly, in small doses. He says the kidney, urine goes downwards, and blood goes upwards. So the urine is passing. Now he's going to give... He started today already giving medicine which will help to form blood. And automatically... He says that... I asked him, "How will we know if it is working? Will Prabhupāda feel stronger?" He said, "Not immediately. I can't give it very much dose." He said, "I'll be able to tell it from the pulse." I guess that's the kavirāja's ability, that he can tell from the pulse. He said, "I'll be able to tell from the pulse that the medicine for creating more blood is being taken up by the body." Then we asked him... He said that it is better you don't sit up 'cause it puts strain on the heart. He said it's better you don't sit up for the next four days or so. Better that you lay down all the time. And that for feeding you, that we can feed you while you're laying down. He said it's not necessary that you take anything solid unless you want it. Liquids are good, he said, for now. Because the whole point is that he has to treat you very, very slowly. There's no question of rushing anything, because you're too weak. He said, if you want solids, that things should not be cooked in ghee. There should be no dahi. He gave some restrictions*-not so many, but some. He said just like mālapuyā would not be good because it's cooked with ghee. I asked him frankly what he thought was your chances. He said that he felt your chances were quite good. He said the whole point is that... He said of course it depends on Kṛṣṇa. He said, "But the chances are very good. But it will be slow." I said, "But even if Prabhupāda recovers, what does that mean, 'recover'?" He said, "Recover means to be fit." I said, "What about like walking?" He said, "Fit means walking, talking, eating, everything." He said, "If this medicine works, then he should live for at least ten more years." He said that the treatment will take at least three or four months. It's a very slow treatment. He felt fairly confident. He feels there's a very good... He says that he treated one patient who had twenty ulcers, and every single physician said that the man had to die within a week to two weeks. And he made this man take 34 kilos of buttermilk per day, and the man survived. He got rid of all the ulcers and survived. He said he takes your case as very, very serious, though. It's most..., at the final point. I said, "Well, Prabhupāda says that he's dead. Now he says he even feels practically dead." The kavirāja said, "He's not dead. I have seen worse cases even than this, and they could survive. But I have to work very, very carefully. And Prabhupāda should keep good spirits," he said. Prabhupāda: Let us see. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I felt very... I thought that was good, that recovery doesn't mean simply laying in bed for the next few years, but recovery means actually being fit. He says it's gradual. He says, "Now, the medicine I've given for the kidneys over the past week, the kidney has not gotten worse. It's improved a little." He said, "So that..." [break] Prabhupāda: You don't strain for collecting. Then spiritual progress will be hampered. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Don't strain for collecting. Then spiritual progress will be hampered. That's a fact. Jayapatākā: It seems that the temple could be completed within seven years without straining. Prabhupāda: That is nice. *Jayapatākā: Then we can have it completed by the five*-hundredth-year anniversary of Lord Caitanya... Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: ...which is in eight years. Prabhupāda: Do it. That is... Jayapatākā: And the architect at Māyāpura, he said that the temple that's inside the big temple, that could be opened up to the public within three years by having just some type of false ceiling, and then the upper stories, work can go on. That means within three years people could start visiting the temple and using it, which will also be a big inspiration to the public. And then the upstairs and complete outside would be completed. Prabhupāda: Do like that. That is very good idea. And different name, you can purchase. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust? Jayapatākā: Each of the..., like gośāla, handloom, these can be separately formed into societies, which would be easier for bookkeeping and management anyway, and each of those societies can purchase the land on which their handloom or gośāla, whatever is, they can purchase that land in that name. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya bhūmi Trust. Jayapatākā: Mr. Chowdury tried, but now he's been transferred from the development commissioner. Now he's the transport commissioner. So now all he can do is give us a free... He gives us, tax free, vehicles. But he can't give us the land anymore. Prabhupāda: Tax free? Jayapatākā: Our vehicles in Bengal, we don't pay any road tax. He's the transport commissioner, but he's no longer development commissioner. And if the government gives us some land on acquisition, we'll take. But I don't think they'll give a big amount, neither we should wait for that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. That's also utopian. Jayapatākā: When they see we're doing something, automatically they want to also help. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And that bridge is a good idea. Pontoon bridge. Jayapatākā: Because so many tourists are coming. The local M.L.A., he told me now there's thousands and thousands people coming. This last weekend there was... At any time you could see hundreds of people walking on the road to take darśana So now the local man, he wants to build some guesthouse on his own, the government, where they're going to serve meat and other things. That's why our temple, we want to... We're getting our guesthouse all straightened up. If we have a restaurant, then we'll be able to take all the tourist traffic. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So why don't you have a restaurant? Jayapatākā: That was supposed to be done this year, but then Bombay took all the funds. Prabhupāda sanctioned it already last year. It was a good idea. But Māyāpura has become very popular. This is all due to your effort, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Simply due to your efforts Māyāpura and Navadvīpa is becoming so much more famous and popular. We want to make the Māyāpura temple so beautiful and make the city so nice that not only the Queen of England and the President of United States, but even the Russian and Chinese leaders, they'll all have to come to see this. They can't avoid. Will that please Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura? If all the leaders, all these presidents and kings would come and visit the temple at Māyāpura, that would please Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seems like your activities, Śrīla Prabhupāda, are so much pleasing to the previous ācāryas. Jayapatākā: This is the secret you are showing, working towards satisfying the desires of the previous ācāryas. *Prabhupāda: Tāṅdera caraṇa*-sebi-bhakta-sane bās. So you are all bhaktas. To live with you, to serve the lotus feet of the ācāryas, that's good... Svarūpa Dāmodara: We've already become famous as spiritual United Nations. Jayapatākā: You've given the secret for success. [break] Prabhupāda: If possible, make some improvement in Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's birthplace. Jayapatākā: I was just thinking about that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: At least repair it nicely, without any claim of our... Jayapatākā: From the Bhaktivedanta Charity Trust. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust will be very popular, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: Amongst the Vaiṣṇavas. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone will glorify your name. It will be a great pleasure to give them funds from this Trust. Jayapatākā: Sometime in the future we can, if they are ever agreeable, if we can take the sevā of that birthplace, then we should do so. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Jayapatākā: In Malda district at Rāmakeli, where Lord Caitanya first met with Rūpa and Sanātana, there is a temple of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa that... Rūpa and Sanātana Gosvāmī used to worship those Deities. Bhaktisiddhānta Ṭhākura Prabhupāda has put a lotus feet of Mahāprabhu there. So we have gone there on two occasions for preaching, and they..., some local people came and said they would like us to take some..., to either take over management or somehow be connected with that because they felt that it required preaching there. They're very favorable at that place. Prabhupāda: Purchase it. *Jayapatākā: When you say Gauḍa*-maṇḍala-bhūmi, that means any of the līlā places of Lord Caitanya. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not just Navadvīpa. Prabhupāda: No. No, in Bengal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about in Jagannātha Purī? Prabhupāda: That is another. That is Orissa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is your great mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you are allowing us to do a little helping to you in your service to the previous ācāryas. We are completely fallen, without any spiritual credit, but still, you are allowing us to help you in a little way. Jayapatākā: Without your intervention we would have no hope. Prabhupāda: Where is Jayapatākā's mother? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is Jayapatākā's mother? Jayapatākā: She's in California. Citsukhānanda Prabhu said that... (to Citsukhānanda:) You said you saw her in Los Angeles? She is coming to the temple? My mother? What is she doing? *Citsukhānanda: She's coming now. There's another lady, Mrs. Forkash, and she has been working with Mrs. Forkash, and she's been attending the programs and also organizing for good publicity for the movement all over America. And she's been attending major functions that we do. Like we had a major function with all the important people of Los Angeles-movie stars, directors, politicians*-and so she also assisted, and she was preaching, speaking about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She's becoming a devotee. Citsukhānanda: Yes, very much. Svarūpa Dāmodara: She's also connected with that Parents for Kṛṣṇa? There's one parent's group called Parents for Kṛṣṇa? Citsukhānanda: Parents for Kṛṣṇa, yes. She assists in that Parents for Kṛṣṇa group. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is your magic touch, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Anyone who contacts you becomes a devotee. You're just like the associates of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Whoever saw them... Prabhupāda: She's already a good lady. Otherwise how she can have such nice son? (laughter) Citsukhānanda: I asked her if she had met you, Prabhupāda. I asked Jayapatākā's mother if she had met you, and she said, "Yes..." Prabhupāda: A fortunate lady. All your mothers, they are all fortu... Svarūpa Dāmodara: I remember some parents used to come, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Los Angeles while you were sitting in the garden in the evening. Once in a while, some parents would come and appreciate you so much that you've trained their sons and daughters to become a human being. Prabhupāda: Tenants? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The parents used to come in Los Angeles in the evening while you were sitting in the garden. Prabhupāda: Which garden? Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayapatākā: One day you'll be celebrated for saving the whole world, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every day, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I receive so many letters praising Your Divine Grace, how you have saved so many fallen souls. Jayapatākā: Even this kavirāja, he said that he has seven patients in Calcutta who are about to die, but he said they're all materialists, so if they live or die it doesn't matter much. So he said, "If Prabhupāda stays on the planet, then so many hundreds, thousands, countless living entities will get devotional service, get liberation, get elevated." That's why he's dropped those patients to come here. You are the most important. You are the pure devotee. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's amazing to think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that ten years ago you were living in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple and just conceiving all of this. Now Kṛṣṇa has arranged everything. You were sitting alone, having to draw your own water, doing your own typing. Everything you had to do yourself. And now, gradually, the whole world is coming to assist you in serving Kṛṣṇa. It is most wonderful. Jayapatākā: But still we are not able to serve properly. You have to show us continuously. We are so unfortunate, we are not able to serve you properly. Devotee (1): Everyone is knowing of your glories, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I was coming in a truck from the airport in San Francisco, and one policeman pulled me over, and he ran an investigation and he came back and said, "I know this isn't right, but do you have any books by Prabhupāda?" So he pulled me over just to get one of your books. And later on I saw him, and he and his friend... He was a sergeant, and they were reading your book at a liquor store. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The policeman pulled him over. He was in a car, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He thought he was going to be arrested, but the policeman said, "I'm pulling you over to ask for one of Prabhupāda's books." Jayapatākā: Haribol! Devotee (1): He said that he used to go through the airports all the time and get your books, but he hadn't been through the airport in so long, he was feeling the separation. So he had to pull us over, because he saw we were devotees, so that he could ask for some of your books. Citsukhānanda: In Los Angeles, at the Spiritual Sky Incense company, there are so many karmī workers also assisting in Spiritual Sky business. So actually they are just coming to work every day without any change of heart. But we started... The receptionist started giving Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers to the people who work there. And this one man who's a theologian who works there in the bookkeeping department read your book and he said, "This man speaks perfectly. He has no fault. Everything he says is completely right, perfect." So now they're coming to the temple, now, because they've read your book. Otherwise they didn't want to associate. But now they read this book, Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers, and they're coming to the temple. They take prasādam. They've become very submissive, all the workers. *Jayapatākā: Now that your books are being printed in Hindi, in Calcutta, one of our life members, Mr. Tulsan, he got your Hindi Bhāgavatam and Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, and he's begun reading, and now he said his whole life is transformed. He said that never he found anywhere that the knowledge was presented so simply and so clearly. All the paṇḍitas he could never understand. So now he's become so enthusiastic he's purchasing four rooms in Māyāpura-two for himself, and he's making two relatives purchase. And every month he comes out with his family, with the whole family. "Instead of going to other recreation," he said, "we'll go to the temple." And he brings big basket of fruit, and he comes out, and they stay for the weekend and they all attend maṅgala-ārati. Prabhupāda: Four rooms, which side? New? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: New building or the old one? Jayapatākā: He's going to purchase, I think, two rooms in the old building, and then two rooms in the new building he'll have his friends purchase. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They like the new building also? Jayapatākā: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think we'll have to build more buildings soon, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That long building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda was saying that Tīrtha Mahārāja's brother says that our gate alone is worth all the other temples, that front gate alone. (laughter) When I told Śrīla Prabhupāda that people say that our new building is like a..., worth a whole train, Prabhupāda said, "A double train." Jayapatākā: When one of the Communist papers was writing a critical report about us, then they said that "They even have a building that's longer than the Writer's Building. How they have done this, shamed our state building?" (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The gate is bigger than the Governor's gate and the building is longer than the Writer's Building. Kṛṣṇa is first. When we build that temple, it will... (laughter) Then everyone will simply be silent. That will end all comment. Prabhupāda: They are already silent. (laughter) *Citsukhānanda: Before I came to India, Prabhupāda, one Saturday night in Los Angeles about three weeks ago we had a big mahā*-saṅkīrtana, big chanting party, because President Carter was coming to Los Angeles. So we got there about thirty minutes before he was coming, and we went with about 125 devotees from New Dvārakā. We went chanting through the street right in front of his hotel room. So he came in from the back way, but it was known to us that he heard the chanting, and all the main people from the government saw this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa. We were chanting very nicely, dancing in the street. And everyone was protesting something different, but we were just happy and joyful, and everyone could see that this is positive, this is best thing. Everyone is griping about something, but we are all happy. We have no complaints. So we think that President Carter heard this kīrtana party. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's supposed to come to India this month. Jayapatākā: We were noticing now the headline in America in the Newsweek or some magazine was that America is going right. Now people are protesting against abortion. They are demanding that leaders be moralistic. It is a whole trend now. And so we see that just because Your Divine Grace has begun book distribution and preaching in the West, in America, that now the people, they're becoming more... Qualities of goodness are automatically coming about just because of your preaching. Devotee (1): At one big fair, Prabhupāda, we were distributing your books, and after the fair was over so many people were coming up. So we surrounded the truck with stacks of books and were passing them out. And pretty soon after all the books were gone the people started rocking the truck. They were surrounding it, asking for one of your books. They were demanding that they have one of your books. Jayapatākā: The kavirāja has come. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Kavirāja: (Hindi conversations) Svarūpa Dāmodara: How much urine yesterday? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yesterday was 475. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thousand was liquid taken in. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes, 1,000. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One kilo. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We washed his eyes with rose water. Prabhupāda said he felt a little... *Bhakti*-caru: He said that the medicine that he started administering, in four or five days Prabhupāda will be fit enough to go into parikrama. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Does that sound all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda slept the whole night soundly. Kavirāja: (Hindis conversation) (Prabhupāda drinks something and coughs) (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: Was the stool... How was the stool? Bhavānanda: Last night? *Bhakti*-caru: Yesterday. Bhavānanda: It's in there. *Bhakti*-caru: No. How was the... Bhavānanda: Consistency? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing you can say. Prabhupāda was saying that there was a little... Prabhupāda, you said that there was a little trouble for passing urine today? Bhavānanda: He said it's coming in installments. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it painful or anything, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Jagadīśa: Some slight pain. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can tell Shastriji that Prabhupāda was saying that for urine there's a little difficulty, pain. *Bhakti*-caru: In the morning. (Hindi) Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want some water, Prabhupāda? *Bhakti*-caru: Arak is that distilled medicine... Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...choke... (Hindi) ...choke... (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: We have to increase the quantity of that Arak. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's for the kidney? Next one we'll keep. There'll be more. Prabhupāda, you want to try for passing urine? Prabhupāda: Immediately? *Bhakti*-caru: No, whenever... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? You want to rest now? You've been talking for a long time. You want kīrtana or not now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Soft. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Soft kīrtana. Shastriji? You can close curtain? (kīrtana) (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 8, 1977, Våndävana Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa dāsa? Who said that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: I do not know, but it is said. (Hindi bhajana*-Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We got some news of some preaching. I was wondering what was a good time to read to you. Prabhupāda: Here. *Bhakti*-cāru: (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like to hear it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I could come later on if you think it's better. Prabhupāda: No. [break] (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Give facility for him, ten rupees. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This gentleman? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ten rupees. Prabhupāda: And some fruits. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Uncut. Prabhupāda: Uncut, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Indian man: (Hindi) Kavirāja: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll give him the fruits now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? I have some fruits. I can give him now? Prabhupāda: Hm. (Hindi) Indian man: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did Prabhupāda say? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda wants to do here. He's going to... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is he going to do it here? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda's requesting here. He said it's better if we do it here. So he said, "Make all the arrangements necessary." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants to bring the brāhmaṇas to inaugurate the Bombay temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That we shall consider later. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 'Cause we already told these South Indian brāhmaṇas to come. Prabhupāda: Some of them may go also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you know this man from a long time ago? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants some money for some temple? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Hm. Now stop talking. (long pause) You have given him ten rupees? Svarūpa Dāmodara: To that brāhmaṇa? Girirāja: Yes. He gave ten rupees. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Tamāla gave him ten rupees? Girirāja: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Would you like soft kīrtana now, or quiet? Prabhupāda: You were reading something? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Girirāja: Oh, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. He's... [break] Yesterday I spent the day in Delhi, and I opened an account with the Punjab Bank in the name of Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust. And we also gave them a letter that the interest from the ten lakhs sixty thousand should go into that Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity account. And I took the original trust of the new trust, the original deed, and I made some photocopies and got them notarized by notary. Prabhupāda: Photocopy of? Girirāja: Of the trust deed forming the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust. And then I bought a copy of the income tax act, because there's some provision that if funds are used to restore some ancient place of worship or some place of worship which is famous in a particular state, then that is exempt from income tax. So I think that this fits in with the aims and objects of this new trust. So we should be able to get tax exemption for that. I spoke to Bombay to see how things were doing, and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa said that everything is going nice, and he's coming here on Friday, after two days. So I told him that your condition was very serious and that I wanted to stay here for a little longer. So he said that was okay. I confirmed with Yaśodānandana Swami's assistant that he sent the letter to the South Indian brāhmaṇas to confirm that they can come on the dates which we have fixed. So we're waiting to hear that reply. Prabhupāda: You can take some brāhmaṇa from here. Balaram... Girirāja: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They'll chant Veda*-mantra very nice *Girirāja: Uh*-huh. We can have these brāhmaṇas and also the South Indian brāhmaṇas. [break] *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? So a letter came. One boy wrote me a letter. When I was going to go to China a while ago, before you told me not to, this boy was working with me. And his name is Jita*-rati. So he went to China, and he's written a report. Should I read it to you? Prabhupāda: Hm. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "My dear Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami and Dhṛṣṭadyumna Swami: Please accept my most humble obeisances unto your feet. All glories to our beloved spiritual master Śrīla Prabhupāda. May Lord Kṛṣṇa, if He so desires, please cure Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'm writing this letter as a brief report on the recent events as a result of my trip to Kwangchow, Canton China. I arrived on October 16th. Business*-attended the Trade Fair but signed no contracts as all the prices were far too high. Research on some items may result in future business. Saṅkīrtana-our real business: I gave two Chinese Bhagavad-gītās to the Chungshan University, or Dr. Sun Yatsen University as it is called now, in Canton. They were accepted by the administration with assurance of being delivered to the appropriate departments. I inquired from the liaison office how to visit the university. They said it must be prearranged, but they did not know how. From past experience..." This boy had gone to China once before, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He's a Canadian. He says, "From past experience..." He's one of your disciples. "From past experience, because of limited time, I decided to just go, although warned not to. I walked past the guard's house at the gate of the university, hoping not to be seen. After I got forty to fifty yards, when a woman came running after me yelling in Chinese. I finally turned to her and said, 'No, it is all right,' and smiled and I kept walking on. She retreated, by Kṛṣṇa's grace, and I went on to the first building, where I saw some books through the windows. As I approached the front door, the first person I met was a middle-aged woman who spoke good English. She was a biology teacher, and we discussed the life principle as she took me to the history department and then reception. There, with two other Chinese persons, we discussed Chinese politics, and I explained the natural social body, varṇāśrama." He was discussing varṇāśrama with them. "However, as they began to understand how much sense it made, they said I had better talk to the people of the political philosophy but were unwilling to arrange it, and I was unable to also. They admitted to still having a class society in China, but the goal was to have no classes, with the means of production so arranged that everyone could have what they wanted. Such demons. They accept Marx, Lenin and Mao as absolute authority and plan to spread this perfect social system, as they call it, all over the world. I gave one Gītā to the main public library. They accepted when they found out that I was a Canadian and thanked me very much. Then, on October 25th, with saffron dhotī and Chinese cymbals, I went out on the main street in Kwangchow in the evening, chanting the holy name." This is in China, Śrīla Prabhupāda. "At first there were many suspicious looks, but in a few minutes I had a large crowd following me. Soon the children were running in front, with some of them dancing. I also began to dance, and a loud uproar ensued from the audience. The crowd grew larger and extended out into the road, where the buses began to honk their horns. Just then a cymbal fell from the string to the ground. As I picked it up and repaired it, the crowd came very close all around and tightly crowded. I chanted loudly, 'Hare Kṛṣṇa,' and heard one 'Kṛṣṇa,' in return. I responded with 'Kṛṣ-ṇa' loudly, and three or four answered. Soon I had about twenty responding to the chant, but decided to go on, as the crowd was getting too big. A few minutes later a man broke through the crowd and grabbed my arm and motioned me to stop. I continued, and soon another grabbed the other arm and pulled me into a shop, closed the doors and offered me a seat. The crowd responded with an uproar and banged on the doors for a little while. I had to wait about fifteen minutes until a person came who spoke English. He told me I was causing interference with traffic, and soon after they let me go. I did not go out again as I did not want to agitate them too far. I had previously chanted in a bus and showed the people pictures of Kṛṣṇa. It was very ecstatic. I have been told since then that the incidents would be heard of by nearly everyone in Kwangchow as a conversation topic. Perhaps the name of Kṛṣṇa will also be repeated many times by many people..." [break] Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So China has sacrificed everything. What is their aim? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In China? Their aim... They say that their aim is to establish a classless society where everyone gets everything that they require. Economic aim. *Prabhupāda: What aim? Low*-class men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their entire outlook is an economic one. They have no... They don't feel that there's any importance to culture or any of the finer sentiments except that they may further the economic consideration. Politically also, their political understanding is also ultimately directed for economics. Any of their political dealings with other countries are all ultimately to establish this economic Communism. Prabhupāda: How human society is falling down. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From the definition given in the *Vedas*, they don't classify as human beings. Prabhupāda: Don't try for China. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You had said that before a few times also. They are completely restricted in every respect. Whereas in other..., East European countries and in Russia, the professors may read various types of literature, in China they're not allowed to do that. And if they are ever caught doing that, they immediately are sentenced to prison and they lose everything. The difference in China as opposed to Russia is that in China every few years all the professors are made to be farmers. And also the workers in the factories and the farmers are the predominate controllers of the universities. They are not at all interested in culture or in higher education. Their whole purpose even for the universities is to train up loyal Chinese citizens. Everything is for that end. So no cultural interest would ever be tolerated on the part of the authorities there. And the people are so much controlled by these authorities that they would lose everything. *Prabhupāda: Sa eva go*-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. (pause) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? You said before that you..., that it is said that you were poisoned? Prabhupāda: No. These kind of symptoms are seen when a man is poisoned. He said like that, not that I am poisoned. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did anyone tell you that, or you just know it from before? Prabhupāda: I read something. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah, I see. That's why actually we cannot allow anyone else to cook for you. Prabhupāda: That is good. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatāka Mahārāja was telling that one ācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, of the Śaṅkarācārya line-this was a while ago*-he was poisoned to death. Since that time, none of the ācāryas or the gurus of the Śaṅkarācārya line will ever take any food cooked except by their own men. Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. You, of course, have been so merciful that sometimes you would take prasāda cooked by so many different people. Prabhupāda: That should be stopped. (pause) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are you feeling any pain, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. (pause) Urine bottle. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Urine? You want to try for it? Okay. Should we again continue some kīrtana Śrīla Prabhupāda? Okay. (Haṁsadūta leads kīrtana) Prabhupāda: Hm. Through. Upendra: Fifty, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "...your letter with enclosures as on reverse. Kindly accept yourself and convey my humble obeisances to my ailing father, and Lord Kṛṣṇa will protect and we have nothing to worry about. Without touching details right now, as desired by you, I beg to submit that a meaningful 'further discussion...' " Remember, I had mentioned to him that we could have a further discussion if we had any questions, "...that a meaningful 'further discussion' could be ensued between us on the subject of settlement upon receipt of a confirmatory letter from the bank concerned either to you or to me directly as to the scheme purported to have been devised by ISKCON. No discussion, perhaps you will agree, without bank's letter, will serve any purpose towards a settlement. If it is a fait accompli, I feel sure the bank's letter describing the arrangements in so many words might bear salutary effect on our further discussions as propounded by your good self." Prabhupāda: Hm. So? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's one point about... Actually, I simply asked him for the name of his bank and the bank account, but he doesn't seem to want to give that at this point. Seems to have some other idea. Very legally worded letter. "3) Panchashil. I do not stay there, albeit my daily visits. Once I have read somewhere, not the copy sent by you, this draft conveyance, and this is a bunkum." He calls it a bunkum. Are you familiar with that word, Śrīla Prabhupāda? I think it means like a hoax or something. "The wordings are incoherent and contradictory. The assigners, promoters, are described as overlord. The lessers, superlord, and assignees, purchasers, have been reduced to a transient resident, if not fugitive debtor. In my opinion, causes are there for criminal prosecution against the promoters. Without capable and competent lawyers' help, this legal matter should not be handled. Until then, keep it in abeyance. Your all the papers as mentioned..." I sent him a copy of the scheme, Śrīla Prabhupāda, as well as a copy of the draft... "All of your papers, as mentioned, are sent herewith back to you." He didn't choose to keep them. "While awaiting the bank's comments, I beg to remain respectfully yours, M.M. De." He says, "The enclosures are sent under ordinary post to avoid heavy postage in this cover." He decided to send them by a separate post because it would have been a few extra paisa. Prabhupāda: Unless the bank confirms, he does not take it seriously. Is it not? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's more or less what he's suggesting. Prabhupāda: So let the bank confirm. What is the harm? Hm? The bank is not going to confirm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, the bank will do whatever we ask them to do. Prabhupāda: Then let them confirm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If he gives us the bank name and the account of his, then by getting the first monthly installment, then automatically it's confirmed. Prabhupāda: I think you should send him Panchashil. If the bank can send the money, Panchashil? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To Panchashil. Yeah. Prabhupāda: Why they suppose? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I personally don't feel at this point... Frankly speaking, I don't think that this reply on his part is very good. I don't think it's proper. He's speaking about a settlement. First of all there is no settlement. The whole legal way in which he's worded this letter indicates to me that he's not taking things in a very... Seems to me he has some motives. He has no reason to doubt this scheme. That's my point. And if he's thinking that he has some kind of rights... [break] ...offices. They're very pleased. And they were especially pleased to get these fixed deposits. Immediately we gave them this six lakhs' fixed deposits, they were very happy with this. They've got about something like 350 accounts already from outsiders within a month or two. They're very, very pleased. They feel that this will become a full branch very quickly, and they have a great amount of space, and they're not at all sorry about the price that they're paying. And it's a good income for our temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nearly ten thousand rupees a month. Prabhupāda: Why ten thousand? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think it's quite ten thousand. I think it's less. Eight or nine thousand. Four rupees.... Prabhupāda: No. It is... Plus interest of the money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Plus interest of the... Of which money? Prabhupāda: The deposit money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fixed deposit money. Well, of course, but that we would have gotten anywhere. But from the point of view of rent it is certainly very substantial rent. That was your scheme, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is giving us all facility. Utilize it. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I especially like that bank, because when you come in, in the center of the wall, instead of seeing some old grumpy-looking bank president, we see Your Divine Grace's effulgent picture, and it says, right under your picture-it's a very big picture*-it says "I.O.B. Welcomes You." It's very nicely done. And in each of the teller's counters, each of the cashier's counters, there's a little picture of Rādhā-Rāsabihārī. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's very nicely done. People who go there bank with confidence. Prabhupāda: And they are getting benefit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It was the proper bank to have there. And because it's right on the ground floor and just near the entrance of the gate, people don't mind coming from the outside. And I've noticed people, after they come and do their banking business, they go for darśana. Prabhupāda: Very good. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe our Deity will get known that people who bank in our bank, they get more money. (laughs) I think the I.O.B. is thinking like that, that to be connected with the Deity is very auspicious, so they're accentuating the involvement with ISKCON and Your Divine Grace and Rādhā*-Rasabehari. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We had no idea how that Hare Krishna Land would ever be successful. Prabhupāda: Yes. It was a jungle. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what we were thinking. "Why does Prabhupāda want us to live in a jungle?" So far away. Nothing there but mosquitoes, and so many rats. We thought, "Who will come there?" Prabhupāda: Now when we construct the other building, further down, it will be (indistinct). Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Godown will be on the ground floor, and residences and Gurukula on the other floors. The only problem is that it's such a good place that now we can't get the residents to move out of those other buildings. They say, "Why should we move? Now we have a temple. There'll be a Gurukula. There's a bank." It's very hard to get them out. Of course, we don't care if they stay, if they're nice. Prabhupāda: Gradually they'll be devotee. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Either they'll be devotees or they'll be driven out by the mahā*-mantra. The upper floor of each of those buildings has also increased the utilization of those buildings. That was also your scheme, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That was my scheme, but we have not given full freedom to the tenant, or controllment(?). Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're always on their heads. Prabhupāda: You take four brāhmaṇas from South India, four from Vṛndāvana, and four from... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bombay. Prabhupāda: In this way, make it gorgeous. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm just thinking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that each of these brāhmaṇas have their own style and method, and by bringing three different groups, it will be a..., you know, there may be some disagreement amongst them. Prabhupāda: Go on like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who should be... They will adjust. Each one should have a head brāhmaṇa plus three other assistants. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Prabhupāda: Yaśodānandana should be head. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yaśodānandana should be the head. He better come back earlier. I heard that he's only coming back one or two days before the actual ceremony, to India. That doesn't seem like it's enough time. Prabhupāda: Call one week early. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One week. Very grand event. There is no such project like that anywhere else in India, or in the world. Would you like to hear kīrtana, Śrīla Prabhupāda? [break] (kavirāja arrives*-Hindi discussions; Bhagatji arrives) *Bhakti*-cāru: It's less now, this restlessness and the pain. Kavirāja: (Hindi conversation) *Bhakti*-cāru: He didn't pass urine after that. Last one is at five past twelve. Bhavānanda: That's all. He hasn't passed any. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Bhakti*-cāru: He asking about urine, Śrīla Prabhupāda, whether you passed urine afterwards. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Tamāla is there? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, you reply letter of M.M. De, "In the absence of your bank abeyance(?), we shall send you the money to your house address, and other address, since you do not disclose, we cannot send it." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His other address, since he does not disclose, we cannot send it. Prabhupāda: Hm. "You'll get your money at your house." Is that all right? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Do you want us to give something towards repairing this Caitanya Mahāprabhu Mandir? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Any amount in particular that you want to be given? Prabhupāda: Make an estimate. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's some maximum amount? Prabhupāda: Bhagatji. Bhagatji: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: You can assist? Bhagatji: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatāka can go with him. This man that came yesterday was Visvanath Misra? Bhagatji: Balaram. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The man who came yesterday was Balaram Misra? Bhagatji: Yes, Balaram Misra. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yesterday, that was Balaram Misra or that was Visvanath Misra? Bhagatji: Balaram. Prabhupāda: Have some kīrtana. Devotees: Jaya. (kīrtana) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did Prabhupāda say? *Bhakti*-cāru: Whether that temple belongs to some particular person. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (aside:) Find out who that temple belong to. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Bhagatji. Bhagatji: (Hindi with Prabhupāda and another Indian) (whispering in background) *Bhakti*-cāru: (Bengali-gives Prabhupāda something to drink) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...preaching. Prabhupāda: Ask him not to do any more... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not to do anymore, unless he does it here. Prabhupāda: If he cannot do here... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seems like he's mostly after money, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Is that true? Prabhupāda: Everyone says like that. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I got that feeling when I saw him. I felt it was very inappropriate that he should come here and in your con*-dition he should be pressing you for money like that. I didn't feel it was very proper. So, er, Bhagatji is going to be going to look at that temple, so I can tell him that he should tell Balaram Misra that unless he does the pūjā here, then don't do it. Prabhupāda: Bhagatji has not gone? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I'm going to go over to his house right now and just see, Śrīla Prabhupāda. All right? And if Bhagatji's still home, I'll tell him that he should tell that to Balaram Misra. Either he does the pūjā here or don't do it at all. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want him to do it here, though? Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. I'll do that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'll come back and let you know what happened. In case Bhagatji's already gone, then... I'll investigate, Śrīla Prabhupāda, right now. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? Bhavānanda: Upendra and I would like to give you a massage. Is that all right? But to do good, full job, we have to lay you on your back. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever you like. [break] (Hindi) *Indian devotee: (Hindi with Prabhupāda and Bhakti*-cāru about preaching and distributing books) Jayapatāka: (Bengali about books) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that Māyāpur's book distribution will soon be rivaling the... [break] Indian devotee: (Hindi with others) *Bhakti*-cāru: He gave a medicine yesterday to control the stool, so we have to get it today. Kavirāja: Pulse over ninety. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ninety. That's not bad. But is it strong or weak? Kavirāja: Stronger. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your pulse is stronger now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Sastriji says that your pulse is normal rate and stronger. I think the kīrtana is having a good effect, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Kavirāja: (Hindi with Prabhupāda about hari*-nāma as medicine) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Sastriji was saying that when he gives someone medicine, he gives the medicine, and then because he's a doctor, he doesn't care it may work or not work. But with you, he said he's become too much attached. He says he does not know why, but he's become very much attached, and now he's too much determined that his medicine must work. He can't feel indifferent when he treats you. Kavirāja: (Hindi with Prabhupāda) *Bhakti*-cāru: (to Bhavānanda) He's explaining about the medicine that if he gets the medicine it will be all right. Bhavānanda: Which medicine? *Bhakti*-cāru: The one that he went to look for in the forest. Bhavānanda: Oh. *Bhakti*-cāru: He's telling that Prabhupāda's condition is not bad right now. (indistinct) take care of him and Prabhupāda shouldn't be left alone. *Kavirāja: (Hindi with Prabhupāda) (sound of blood pressure pump) One forty by seventy*-five. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seventy*-five. Kavirāja: I have been correct. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just right. What was the pulse this morning? *Bhakti*-cāru: (Hindi to Kavirāja) Morning his pulse rate was 115. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-cāru: Now his heart is in perfect order. Bhavānanda: So what was the cause of that distress? Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-cāru: He says further he cannot say. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Hm. Kavirāja: (Hindi with Prabhupāda and devotee) *Bhakti*-cāru: The color of his stool was greenish this morning. So that's good. That shows that the liver is... Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-cāru: It's a pity that you can't understand me and I can't understand you. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we are understanding. *Kavirāja: (Hindi with Bhakti*-cāru-mentions pathological tests, pulse, heart) *Bhakti*-cāru: He says from pathological point of view, there is nothing wrong. Kavirāja: General condition good. *Bhakti*-cāru: His condition of the heart beat is perfect. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what is wrong? *Bhakti*-cāru: Blood pressure is perfect. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means a spiritual... Kavirāja: (Hindi with Prabhupāda) *Bhakti*-cāru: Saturn is having its effect like at times when he was looking at Śrīla Prabhupāda then having some trouble. When he was (indistinct) something else than when the Saturn looks higher from him... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But what did Prabhupāda just say? Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-cāru: He said how can you define it? How can you explain it? Like the condition couldn't have improved by ten medicines also, (indistinct) one medicine it become perfect. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did Prabhupāda just say? *Bhakti*-cāru: Prabhupāda just said that I mean, this morning his condition was bad, not now. Bhavānanda: Prabhupāda was complaining of mental distress this morning also. *Bhakti*-cāru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Bhakti*-cāru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Bhakti*-cāru: (Bengali) ...mental distress? Prabhupāda: Hm, hm. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi*-mentions word "poison") Kavirāja: (Hindi) Devotee: Someone gave him poison here. Kavirāja: (Hindi long explanation) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda was thinking that someone had poisoned him. *Adri*-dharaṇa: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was the mental distress. *Adri*-dharaṇa: Yes. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did Kavirāja just say? *Bhakti*-cāru: He said that when Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying that, there must be some truth behind it. (People all speaking at once) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Sastriji says that there must be some truth to it if you say that. So who is it that has poisoned? (pause) *Kavirāja: (Hindi with Bhakti*-cāru and Prabhupāda) Woman: What did he say? *Bhakti*-cāru: He said that it's quite possible that mercury, it's a kind of a poison... *Bhagatji: That makaradhvaja. (Hindi with Kavirāja and Bhakti*-cāru) *Bhakti*-cāru: He was referring to a big murder case in Calcutta, the husband poisoned the wife. Bhavānanda: Oh yes. Our lawyer is the... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhagatji doesn't think the... *Kavirāja: (Hindi with Bhakti*-cāru and Prabhupāda) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No poison is strong enough to stop the hari*-nama, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Kavirāja: Yes. (Hindi) Devotee: Prahlāda Mahārāja. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like some more kīrtana, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Lokanātha can lead. Lokanātha, you lead. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lokanātha. Lokanātha: Not for chanting, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm. Lokanātha: We just had a big kīrtana, but I could chant more. I have come a long way to see you and chant for you. So if you allow I will chant. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lokanātha: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: You have taken your van? Lokanātha: No. Prabhupāda: You take your van and three o'clock there. Lokanātha: Three o'clock is all right? Prabhupāda: Four. Lokanātha: Four o'clock. Prabhupāda: How is the climate outside? Lokanātha: There's not cold so far. Lucky I came today. It's good climate. Haṁsadūta: At night it's a little chilly and in the day it's very pleasant and warm. Prabhupāda: No, other parts of India. Lokanātha: Are not. As we go towards the Himalaya it gets cold otherwise up to Delhi and Chandigarh same climate as it is here now. As soon as we go out into the mountains, it's very cold. Shivering. As we came to the place, wherever we went the same climate. Same as Vṛndāvana. It's a good climate. *Prabhupāda: So you come at four, have kīrtana (?). [break] I wish that you GBC manage very nicely and consider I am dead and let me try to travel all the tīrthasthāna. Without any responsibility. If I become recovered from this malady I shall come back and then I shall die in, what is it when the dead body is there, let them bring to Māyāpura and Vṛndāvana. I am thinking in this way. Bring little medicine and no medicine, little milk, and travel one place to another and if there is death, what is the lamentation? My age is ripe. In the open air and bullock cart or during daytime, eh? Or you can say semi*-suicide, although living what consider me dead for the time. You manage and nowadays there is in India ample sunshine. So during daytime I shall travel and nighttime you make a camp under a tree. In this way let me travel all the tīrthas. I am thinking in this way. What is your opinion? Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we promise that we'll manage everything to the best of our ability. Prabhupāda: No, no, you are managing, I know, but you are all important men and unnecessarily you are bound up. You cannot go. So Lokanātha party has got some experience and let me go. In India the climate is now good. If I recover, it is very good. You know. So what is the wrong? If I die, then the body will be brought either in Vṛndāvana or Māyāpura, that's all. And if I live, it will be a great end of a life. You are all experienced. Jayapatāka: As much as you have trained us, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that is only how much we are experienced. We don't want that you be burdened any more with material management problems but... Prabhupāda: No, not from that point of view. What is the use of lying down here? Jayapatāka: The kavirāja said... Prabhupāda: Kavirāja may say... Jayapatāka: ...that even that your body is going to, is got a life of six to ten years but he said even a healthy cow, if it's kept locked up inside of a room, then it will deteriorate. Prabhupāda: And therefore I say, (laughs) don't keep me locked up. You do your duty as I have trained you and let me be free and if money required, he'll come and take and go back again as he is coming to take book. Jayapatāka: What? Prabhupāda: They have got experience Indian, you can go village to village and, arrangement as you may, but it is trouble taken, and I am no longer, you manage. If I live, I can come again. I shall be very glad. Devotee: Previously it was mentioned that there was some risk in travelling. Prabhupāda: What is that risk? Nowadays there is no risk. What is the risk? Mm? Devotee: Well from the medical point of view it's something with the organs or something, I don't know exactly but it's been considered. Prabhupāda: This is my proposal and... Jayapatāka: That would be after you gained some strength, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. If I (have) free air and free movement why sunshine (?) and I can come back again in a year. Jayapatāka: You will be translating while you're travelling? Prabhupāda: No, yes and no. Bhavānanda: I think it's good idea, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Ha. Bhavānanda: Only factor at this point is not to take any unnecessary risk. Prabhupāda: No. As I think free, so I remain. Mm. Then when I am sane man, I shall come back again either Māyāpura or Vṛndāvana or Bombay, any other. Jayapatāka: You would travel by a minibus. Prabhupāda: Mm? Jayapatāka: You would travel by a bus. Prabhupāda: That you think of. Bhavānanda: We will all sit down and discuss the different arrangements that have to be made, plans that have to be made. It's a very nice idea. Real sannyāsa life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mm. You have tried doctor, kavirāja, medicine, everything. Everything has failed. Now suppose I am taking the risk of death, what is wrong? When the..., I am dead you go India, within India, you go and bring the body either in Māyāpura or Vṛndāvana. Māyāpura the land is already there. Vṛndāvana I think on the gate side, that's all. That's wherever you like you'll do. Jayapatāka: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you commented that when Ṭhākura Bhaktivinoda was put on the gate side that that was no way to respect a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Mm. Jayapatāka: So then doesn't seem proper to put you by the gate. Prabhupāda: No, not by the gate. There is ample land. Or in Māyāpura, that will be very nice. Mm. Jayapatāka: This kavirāja assures that by taking little milk frequently during the day... Prabhupāda: I will take milk. Milk is available everywhere. (laughter) I shall take little milk and sleep, that's all. If I live, that's all right. If I don't live, that doesn't matter. Bhavānanda: Very nice program. We can all accompany you at different times of the month. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not very many, but you can come and go back. Jayapatāka: Which holy places you would like to visit, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: India is full of holy places. *Jayapatāka: Kṛṣṇa*-līlā, Mahāprabhu-līlā. Prabhupāda: And gradually you go to Māyāpura. Is someone here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I... Bhavānanda: He has heard everything. Prabhupāda: Mm. Jayapatāka: By you going to the holy places, you will purify the holy places. Prabhupāda: There are two things, life or death. So if I die where is the wrong? And if there is death, that is natural. Jayapatāka: For you Śrīla Prabhupāda, to be alive or to die is no different because you are in the transcendental position, but for us when you leave the body then we are bereft of your association. So for us it is very unfortunate. Prabhupāda: Then live by my words, by my training. Mm. (pause) So you like this idea? Mm? Haṁsadūta: I liked it. Prabhupāda: Who is it? *Adri*-dharaṇa: It's Haṁsadūta Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) Most places you beg from the local place and subsist, otherwise purchase. Jayapatāka: You are very famous, Śrīla Prabhupāda, wherever you go there will be crowds of people to have your darśana. *Prabhupāda: So they will see me, I have no objection. I want little milk from them, that's all. (pause) So far my presence is required (for) management, I think I have bequeathed, properly you can manage. Hm. It is to be admitted failure, the so*-called medical treatment, failure. (pause) Jayapatāka: I'll be back to say that you defy all medical laws. Sometimes you become very weak and sometimes you become immediately strong. (pause) Girirāja: I think this is a good idea. Prabhupāda: Who is this? Devotee: Girirāja. Prabhupāda: Oh. Girirāja: Because, I mean, I don't have any faith in the doctors or their treatments because they're never working and ultimately it depends on Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. He can exercise His will in any condition and you know, as you say, that if you go out and if you recover then it's very good. And even otherwise, I mean if that is the decision of Lord Kṛṣṇa, then this is a very glorious way. (pause) Prabhupāda: All seriously consider this submission and let me go. (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 10, 1977, Våndävana Bhavānanda: We should begin the parikrama in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: Because quite honestly, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think most of us are very worried. If you go off down the road and send us all back to our different assignments, we would not be able to serve with our full attention, knowing that our beloved father and spiritual guide was in such weak condition. So if we begin in Vṛndāvana, we're all here now, we can see so that we know what arrangements to make for the future when you want to leave. Prabhupāda: Hm. You make me flat. [break] *Jayapatākā: We heard that Your Divine Grace had a dream that a kavirāja of the Rāmānuja*-sampradāya would treat you and bring you back to strength, and this kavirāja says that in a very short time, following the treatment, you would regain your strength. Although he hasn't got all of the medicines yet, but within a day or two they'll all be prepared, and he says within fifteen days you should be quite improved in strength. So far, he seems to have been quite sincere. Prabhupāda: No, no, he's sincere. I'll drink milk. Whatever strength is obtainable, there will be. Jayapatākā: Like to follow the same treatment, only while traveling. Haṁsadūta: So we should meet and make a program for going around Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: You want to begin tomorrow morning? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): If Prabhupāda travels in a van it would be very bumpy. He should have a big bus. Haṁsadūta: Let's discuss it. Prabhupāda: Bus? Devotee (1): A big bus. Prabhupāda: No, no, bus will be not good. Bullock cart. Bhavānanda: Bullock cart. Jayapatākā: That is very bumpy. Bhavānanda: Your Guru Mahārāja used to have bullock cart travel from Hulorghat [on the bank of the Ganges in Māyāpura] up to the Caitanya Maṭha. You told me you put a nice mattress down in the back and a cover, and you lay down there. You even told me once to go to Calcutta that way. You lay down, at night; you go little bit, little bit; and in the morning, when you wake up, you're in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Bullock, you get the cow dung. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cook with it. Jayapatākā: In this part of India it's very cold now for Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: Underneath the tree it is not cold. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You sound like you are very determined to go, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Daytime we expose in the sunshine, and camp underneath a tree at night. That has to be arranged. (Bengali with Bhakti*-caru-Prabhupāda drinks something) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should the devotees take prasādam now? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's about 1:30 now. After taking prasādam we can meet and chalk out a program for parikrama and tīrtha*-yātrā. Is that all right? Okay. Prabhupāda: I thought you have taken. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we were all surrounding you, listening very intently to all your instructions. Jagadīśa: Prasādam has been saved for the devotees that are here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three o'clock we'll meet. So we'll have our meeting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with Lokanātha also present. Jagadīśa: Satsvarūpa also. Prabhupāda: Four o'clock. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm? Yes. And then we'll begin tomorrow. Is that soon enough? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we depart for taking prasādam now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Prabhupāda: Who is attending? Bhavānanda: Upendra. Prabhupāda: Upendra is very good attendant. [break] *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were discussing how to make this parikrama possible, and we've concluded that the best thing was, as we said earlier, to parikrama around Vṛndāvana to begin with. And for that purpose we sent Lokanātha Mahārāja and Pañca*-draviḍa Mahārāja and Trivikrama Mahārāja to get a bullock cart ready. Prabhupāda: Hired or purchased? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, for now just hired, not purchased. Later on we can make a more permanent arrangement, and it can be fixed up as nicely as possible. At the same time while we were meeting, the kavirāja, he also was present. So we inquired from him what he thought about this program, from a medical point of view of course. Spiritually he is in complete agreement. So from a medical point of view, he said that you would not at all be able to withstand this kind of a trip. He said that in a bullock cart, moving around, bumping on the road, you might not be able to live more than a couple of hours. He's here now. He wanted to speak to you. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Lokanātha? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Lokanātha has already gone, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Haṁsadūta: He has gone to Mathurā for renting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has gone out for renting the bullock cart. Prabhupāda: Oh. (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lokanātha says that the bullock cart could probably go around Vṛndāvana in about five to six hours, parikramming Vṛndāvana town. Prabhupāda: Make an experiment. Then we shall decide. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said, "Make an experiment. Then we shall decide." Jayapatākā: What is that experiment? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatākā's asking what that experiment is, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana parikrama. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said, "Vṛndāvana parikrama." Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, does it mean with Your Divine Grace, or we should go alone first and see? Prabhupāda: Hm? Haṁsadūta: Does it mean that Your Divine Grace will come on the experiment, or we should go without Your Divine Grace and experiment? Prabhupāda: Why? Jayapatākā: See if the road is very rough, if the road is passable by bullock cart the whole way. Prabhupāda: Bullock cart is not smooth. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bullock cart is not smooth. How would you propose that we go, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Come, let us take the risk. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Go anyway. Let us take the risk. Svarūpa Dāmodara: As your disciples, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we're all neophytes. We don't know what is right and what is wrong. But at the same time we feel that we're very hopeful that you'll get strength slowly and slowly. And this morning you were telling us that you get a little strength, so we are hoping every day that "Prabhupāda will gain even stronger and be with us for many more years." So we are taking advice from kavirāja that you take milk more and more, day by day, so that Prabhupāda will get stronger. Like kavirāja is suggesting that when Your Divine Grace gets stronger, he'll go with you in the parikrama, he will accompany you. Prabhupāda: So let us make experiment in Vṛndāvana. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Shall we do that immediately? Prabhupāda: Hm. Hm. *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: Shastriji's saying that he shouldn't do it under the circumstances. *Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if we follow the kavirāja's instructions and advice, then he feels that within fifteen days, twenty days, you will have strength. To take an unnecessary risk at this time, we have to practically appraise what will be the loss. You have said, "If I live or die on this parikrama, it will be glorious," but the loss will be that Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will not be finished, so many works will be unfinished. If it's just a matter of being a little patient and waiting fifteen more days*-is only two weeks-then when you have strength, then we can all go on the parikrama, and you'll be able to hopefully gain more strength and finish up all of these works. But I think that the risk, in terms of the future of the whole world, is too great. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana parikrama is not risk. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you went on this parikrama the other day around the temple, you became dizzy just going around the temple four times. That's when you were even able to sit up in bed a lot more. How is it going to be possible to go for four, five or six hours, when you couldn't... Prabhupāda: Not four, five, six... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's how long it takes to go around Vṛndāvana by bullock cart. It takes three hours walking at a good pace, and it takes at least five or six hours, Lokanātha says, by bullock cart. How...? We couldn't even go a half hour just around this temple. Prabhupāda: No, I traveled. It takes two hours in the morning. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Walking. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not by bullock cart. That's when a man walks very quickly you can do it in two hours, but by bullock cart it will take five hours. We have... You had difficulty even doing a half*-hour parikrama around this temple. You became very faint. Whether you think that you can go five hours in a row? Prabhupāda: From Mādhava Mahārāja's Maṭha, bring Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should bring Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī here? Okay. Prabhupāda: And Indu. *Bhakti*-caru: Indu-mati Prabhu? *Prabhupāda: Indu*-mati. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Indu*-mati. Prabhupāda: Then talk. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, you know Mādhava Mahārāja's mandira? You know Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī, Prabhupāda's Godbrother? You know? So Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma will go with you. Prabhupāda wants to see Indu-mati and Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī. You bring them both. You go in one of the cars. Mādhava Mahārāja's Maṭha. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma*-not the Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī from Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Mādhava Mahārāja's. Svarūpa Dāmodara: As your humble disciples, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are ready to take my instruction that you've kindly given us, but at the same time, you have advised us many times that we shouldn't take unnecessary risk. Just like few days ago you were telling a Bengali saying, saying that when you are doubtful, don't do it. You instructed us. Prabhupāda: That is material. (laughter) Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can you tell us why you want to go on the parikrama? *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali) [break] Prabhupāda: ...good paddy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This seems like suicide, Śrīla Prabhupāda, this program. It seems to some of us like it's suicidal. Prabhupāda: And this is also suicidal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Prabhupāda said, "And this is also suicide." Now you have to choose which suicide. *Prabhupāda: The Rāvaṇa will kill and Rāma will kill. Better to be killed by Rāma. Eh? That Mārīca*-if he does not go to mislead Sītā, he'll be killed by Rāvaṇa; and if he goes to be killed by Rāma, then it is better. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is this Prabhupāda's talking about? Devotees: Mārīca. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I mean, just judging the symptoms, which is all that we can do, certain symptoms have certainly picked up. For instance, you're passing more urine, stool is coming naturally, and you're able to drink milk without getting any cough. These things were never there before. Prabhupāda: Hm. That will continue. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if the treatment is continuing, if the treatment is working, why not continue it under the guidance of this kavirāja for some time? His point is this. This is what I've seen, Śrīla Prabhupāda, being your secretary all these months, that whenever you took milk you would get cough. For the first time I see there's no cough coming. Another problem, you couldn't pass urine. Now there's double the amount of urine. Another thing, you couldn't pass stool. Now it comes normally. At least it comes without any artificial means. So the one thing that has not yet come is strength, and kavirāja is suggesting what you yourself had always said, "If I can drink milk, I will get stronger." So if the kavirāja's treatment... To my feeling it has worked. At least symptoms... The symptoms have been better under his treatment than any doctor so far. Prabhupāda: That will work. Bhavānanda: It will work. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also Śrīla Prabhupāda's resting better than before. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the idea is that... According to him... I mean, obviously we're all conditioned, and... I mean, he's not claiming not to be a conditioned soul either, but according to him, going on this bullock cart is a suicide. He said within an hour or two hours, the bouncing and jumbling of the bullock cart will cause a heart attack. Just like you were having heart..., a little heart spasm the other day, just laying in bed two days ago. He says this going in a bullock cart, up and down, within one, two hours it can cause heart attack. So as his treatment has been better at least than any other doctor, and certain symptoms have improved, why are we giving up his advice? If you say his advice is wrong, then there's no comment, but all along, his advice seems to have been more accurate than any other doctors that we've had. I mean we who are closely around you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, your servants, secretary, our opinion of him is far superior than our opinion of any of these others. I see that he's able to take care of one symptom after another somewhat successfully. He's able to deal with these problems. He can deal with the problem of not enough urine... Prabhupāda: That I know. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He feels quite confident that you can live for six, seven more years, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We also feel very confident. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Better that you live for six or seven years productively than that you go on this parikrama and die within two hours gloriously. Why not live for six or seven years and then go on parikrama and die? If the parikrama can always be done, why not put it off for six or seven more years of preaching? Svarūpa Dāmodara: You've already been glorious, Śrīla Prabhupāda, all over the world. Whether you're here or outside doesn't really matter. You're already glorious. Jayapatākā: By your presence countless souls will attain devotional service. That's more glorious. Prabhupāda: But I think I shall be cured. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda says he thinks he will be cured by the parikrama. (Bhakti*-caru and Shastriji-Hindi) Haṁsadūta: Under the circumstances we have to consider whether Prabhupāda's opinion is more or less than the kavirāja's, is what it comes down to. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can't continue..., consider. Śrīla Prabhupāda has to. Haṁsadūta: If Prabhupāda says that by going on parikrama he feels he'll be cured, then how can we continue to place arguments against him? Kavirāja: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Kuvera? *Bhakti*-caru: Shastriji is telling Prabhupāda to ask the Kuvera's puṣpaka-ratha. That is airplane of Kuvera. And do the parikrama in that. Then there won't be any pumping in that way. And he's saying that if Prabhupāda asks for that, he will sure get it. (devotees chuckle) Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ultimately what Prabhupāda decides, we will do. Haṁsadūta: Well, it just... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but it goes on. As Prabhupāda goes on, his disciples also go on. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: Shastriji's saying, Mahārāja... Shastriji's saying that Prabhupāda shouldn't talk too much. It's bad for his heart. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can have kīrtana until Kṛṣṇa dāsa comes. Okay. (kīrtana) Lokanātha is here, over there, Śrīla... Prabhupāda: So? Where did you go? *Lokanātha: I went to Mathurā. I went first to Vṛndāvana and looked for the carts. They were not very good kind. They were made for rough loads. So I went to Mathurā and spoke to one farmer. He had a fairly big size cart and two strong bullocks, and he asked for a hundred rupees. He wouldn't come down. So ultimately I agreed for a hundred rupees. And he will reach tonight at eleven o'clock. I asked him to start immediately, but they have pūjā*-as we have go-pūjā, they also have oxen pūjā today-so he will only reach at eleven o'clock, and he will be with us all day long tomorrow. I had to give him one day or maximum... Prabhupāda: So what do you think? Lokanātha: Of what? Prabhupāda: How many carts you have? Lokanātha: I got just one today, one for you, and those who serve you, they could also sit besides you in the cart, and the rest could do kīrtana around the bullock cart, and the whole unit, bullock cart and saṅkīrtana group, will move together. Prabhupāda: So what we have to pay? Lokanātha: We'll pay hundred rupees, one day. Of course, you want to have it for all the time. Best thing is to purchase a set of bullocks, two bullocks, and a cart. Prabhupāda: You have got experience. Lokanātha: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is better? Lokanātha: Well, depends on whether we like to use it for longer time. Then we should purchase. If it is just for a few days, best thing is to hire. Prabhupāda: Hundreds rupees and food. Lokanātha: No. He has his food for himself and bullocks. So that's for the cart, two bullocks and the driver. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Lokanātha: Yes. This is what they earn for living. Usually they carry different loads from place to another place. Each trip they take twenty rupees, thirty rupees, fifty rupees, according to distance and the load they carry. But it's expensive to keep it for many days. Prabhupāda: No. If it is inconvenient, we may not keep. Lokanātha: If it is convenient? Prabhupāda: Then we shall keep. Lokanātha: So we'll hire first and see how it goes, works. And if you think it is nice, or comfortable, all right with you, then we can purchase. Prabhupāda: So how many we are going? Lokanātha: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many what? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: How many will be going? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, all the devotees want to go, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Haṁsadūta: That's nice? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So how many carts you require? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Just one. Lokanātha: One for now. We also had a meeting, and we were discussing that if we go around just in Vṛndāvana, all will go. But if we keep going from holy place to holy place, then we have to decide whether everyone goes or just a few of us go. Prabhupāda: So you are hiring for how many days? Lokanātha: This is only for one day it is hired now, but we could continue to hire the same cart for several more days by paying extra money. Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Our experiment... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It certainly is an experiment. Of course, we always like experiments to be successful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where he'll go? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Where will we go? We thought tomorrow to go around the parikrama path. Prabhupāda: Which parikrama path? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vṛndāvana parikrama. Lokanātha: Does a cart go? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've never tried it with a cart. Smara*-hari, you say a cart couldn't go? Lokanātha: No, he says it cannot go. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Smara*-hari, who is familiar with the parikrama path, says that a bullock cart would not be able to pass in many of the places. Prabhupāda: Then? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, then that means we can't do a Vṛndāvana parikrama. *Smara*-hari: For example in Keśī-ghāṭa there's no... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's experienced. He says... Lokanātha: This Vṛndāvana parikrama is mainly for walking and circumambulating. It's not meant for going in a vehicle, motor vehicle or bullock cart. *Haṁsadūta: Suppose we would go to Keśī*-ghāṭa or one of the important temples like Govindajī. Lokanātha: Those are seven temples. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, another possibility is to go to the places where the main temples are, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Gosvāmīs' temples. *Haṁsadūta: Tomorrow is Govardhana*-pūjā, and a procession through the city of Vṛndāvana would be very ecstatic. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Pañca*-draviḍa: One parade. Prabhupāda: Others will come also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah, well, if we go through Vṛndāvana, probably many people will come. Haṁsadūta: Then we could also get some experience, because if we were, for example, to go to Govardhana, we would have to pass over similar roads. Lokanātha: This cart does not have cover, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This bullock cart which I hired has no cover on the top. Haṁsadūta: So we have to cover it. *Bhakti*-caru: Lokanātha Swami, you apparently didn't get one question of Prabhupāda. He asked what do you think about this trip. You didn't answer that. You have some experience with bullock carts. What do you think? In this condition Śrīla Prabhupāda will withstand the trip? You know in what condition Prabhupāda is in now. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bullock cart are usually very bumpy. Devotee: This has rubber tires. Lokanātha: If these roads are not bad, and the cart has tire wheels... Prabhupāda: Yes? Lokanātha: So we're discussing bumping, so won't be much bumping on the cart. Also, we always could go slow. If Prabhupāda wants to make an experiment, we could make one day... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A few hours. Prabhupāda: I am thinking I am lying here... [break] Lokanātha: ...should ride in very nice carts, a chariot. Prabhupāda: No, (indistinct). (laughter) Lokanātha: I saw one in Maharastra. In Poona. Yes. Prabhupāda: Hm. You can purchase immediately. (laughter) *Lokanātha: We'll have to design it. They're not ready*-made like that. The kind which we want, the pull-on kind, with cover on top and nice arrangements, we have to design it and order it. Get it made. There's a place called Meerut, north of Delhi... Prabhupāda: Therefore I sent you. You have got already experience. Lokanātha: You said you want to make an experiment, so let us make an experiment with this hired bullock cart, and in few days' time... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So where will we go tomorrow if we go? Prabhupāda: Govardhana? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Govardhana. *Pañca*-draviḍa: That's very far. We went on one parade three years ago in Vṛndāvana, with elephants, that Your Divine Grace went. Maybe we could go on that same route. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Govardhana will take about six hours to reach there. Lokanātha: No, how many kilometers is that? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it's very far. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty*-eight to thirty kilometers. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It takes one hour by car. Lokanātha: Take five kilometers an hour. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's six hours to get there. Six hours to get there, and then three hours around Govardhana. Nine hours. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And six hours back. *Pañca*-draviḍa: And the bulls might have to rest. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have to rest the bulls, don't you? *Pañca*-draviḍa: There's one route we went on in Vṛndāvana, on a parade. Shorter route. First time, as an experiment, we could go a shorter distance. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's quite a big experiment to make, going to Govardhana the first day, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You feel confident that you can travel nine hours in a row on a bullock cart? Prabhupāda: I am sleeping here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Lokanātha: He says he's sleeping here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But this is not a bullock cart. Prabhupāda: The same thing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The same thing? Jayādvaita: One thing is that in the Gosvāmī temples they have govardhana-śilā. That's also Govardhana. Haṁsadūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The main concern of the devotees is that whether you will be able to survive such an experiment. But before, you said that you felt that such a parikrama would actually cure you. You said that. So your vision is transcendental, because you are the spiritual master. You're a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So if you say that it will cure you and that it will be beneficial for you, then we have to carry out that..., whatever you desire. We do not know. We're just on the mundane platform. *Prabhupāda: One*-day experiment. It is for one day? Lokanātha: We have hired it for one day. Prabhupāda: Rest assured. I will not die in one day. *Haṁsadūta: So we should go to Govardhana? Because tomorrow is Govardhana*-pūjā. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we shall make our cooking there and... Lokanātha: We should start early. Prabhupāda: He has got experience. Dig the ground and make our foodstuff. Very good picnic. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good picnic. Haṁsadūta: If we go to Govardhana, we would take the prasādam that was prepared here and bring it there, so that many people can take. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. Lokanātha: Or otherwise we can make real picnic. We could collect some grains there from door to door and cook some khicuṛi there. Prabhupāda: That will be very nice. Guṇārṇava: There are already many thousands and thousands of people there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Perhaps it will take a long time to get there because of traffic. I was in Mathurā today. Every ten minutes buses and ṭāṅgās and so many kinds of vehicles were going to Govardhana. There are many, many thousands of people there today. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Besides that, the devotees would have to walk nine hours in the sun. Guṇārṇava: Perhaps the road will be very busy tomorrow, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew! Haṁsadūta: Can't walk? Prabhupāda: No, let them take their time. They do that. It is very nice picnic. Lokanātha: From my village there is this pilgrimage called Pandarpur. This is sixty miles. And still, old men, they just travel, walk. Every ekādaśī they go. Prabhupāda: Just see. Lokanātha: Every ekādaśī they go to Pandarpur, have darśana of Charukmari(?), and return on foot. Haṁsadūta: You have assured us that in one day you're not going to die, and you want to make this experiment, so we should do it. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: We'll do it with great enthusiasm. Your Divine Grace is infallible. So if you say that it will help and cure you, then that must be a fact. You've never been wrong about anything, Prabhupāda, so you must be right this time also. Prabhupāda: So let us make experiment. Don't hesitate. *Pañca*-draviḍa: So we can fix up the cart tonight. Haṁsadūta: Where's the cart? Outside? *Pañca*-draviḍa: It's coming. Lokanātha: It will reach at eleven o'clock here. So I suggest right after maṅgala-ārati we'll go, or we should start. Prabhupāda: As far as possible, take me in a comfortable position. That's all. As far as possible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Comfortable position. Prabhupāda: That... *Pañca*-draviḍa: Arrange one bed on the cart. This mattress can go in nice arrangement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is not the best. There is other mattresses that are as good or better than this. The temple has many gadis. We'll get them. *Pañca*-draviḍa: We can make nice arrangement. This will purify Govardhana Hill, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Tīrthas become purified by the presence of... Lokanātha: Another tīrtha. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Yes. Prabhupāda will go to the tīrtha. Jagadīśa: You're a Vaiṣṇava like Arjuna and Hanumān, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Tomorrow is a great festival. *Lokanātha: Tomorrow is Govardhana*-pūjā festival. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are in Vṛndāvana, and we shall not take part? We must take part. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. We are in Vṛndāvana and we are not taking part. We must take part. *Pañca*-draviḍa: So we should all go to Govardhana? Prabhupāda: Why not? Who is here? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: About thirty or forty devotees, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're just like puppets, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We are all unfit to make any decision. Whatever Your Divine Grace instructs us to do, we just follow. Prabhupāda: So, Lokanātha, what do you say? Svarūpa Dāmodara: What do you say, Lokanātha Mahārāja? Lokanātha: We should make experiment to please you. Prabhupāda: That's nice. *Lokanātha: That will be ever*-new experience for us also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: It will be historic. Many people have been invited to the temple here. Many people have been invited to attend the function here at the mandira. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Thousands of people are expected to come tomorrow. *Pañca*-draviḍa: That can also go on. Prabhupāda: When they have invited? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: To Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: When? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Tomorrow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "What time?" he's asking. Bhavānanda: At 11 a.m. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At around noontime, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a big feast at one o'clock. Prabhupāda: So half of our men may come back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Half of the men may come, and half should stay. All the Vṛndāvana devotees can stay. All the visiting devotees should go. All right, we'll make that division, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Keep that palanquin. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Keep the palanquin on the cart? Prabhupāda: Cart? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Palanquin. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where should we keep it? With us on the cart? Prabhupāda: Carry it. Haṁsadūta: Bring it along. *Pañca*-draviḍa: We'll bring it along. (discussion of how to do this) Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when we'll come back from Govardhana? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Tomorrow night. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So after circumambulating Govardhana, we will return to Vṛndāvana or stay out? Prabhupāda: What do you think? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Maybe we could stay overnight. Lokanātha: When we are there, out, we'll decide. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He can't come back tomorrow night. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's helpful for the devotees to know, just so they can bring something to wrap around when it gets to be nighttime. It's not the middle of the summer, you know. It is... Lokanātha: We have two, three vehicles here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm saying it's something that should be considered now, and not when we get there. You said when we get there we'll see. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We should make all the plans complete. Prabhupāda: That you consider. Bhavānanda: We should go with plans for staying overnight. Prabhupāda: Why you are asking me? Lokanātha: I think we'll have to stay there. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, definitely. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We definitely have to stay there. Haṁsadūta: : Six hours to go, three hours to go, that's nine. It's not possible to come back. So one night, spending one night in Govardhana. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The devotees are crashing after two hours. Lokanātha: The devotees should be prepared to stay overnight there. Under the trees. (laughter) Haṁsadūta: We're supposed to be gosvāmīs. We have to stay under a tree. Different tree every night. Lokanātha: When we were traveling from Vṛndāvana to Māyāpura we stayed many times. Outside we'd live under the tree. It's nice. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes, but if just one window is open at night, Prabhupāda starts feeling cold in spite of the blanket. Lokanātha: You are making mundane. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It will be very cold in the early morning hours. Haṁsadūta: We'll bring the van, and Prabhupāda can stay in the van overnight, or we'll find some place. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All the āśramas will be overcrowded. *Pañca*-draviḍa: We can sleep around the van. Prabhupāda is like a desire tree. He satisfies everybody. Lokanātha: That cart could be turned into house. Have bamboo sticks, cover it with... Prabhupāda: So begin to plan. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think Lokanātha Swami should make the route, completely planned out, and the place also where we're going to picnic so that everything has to be arranged well ahead of time. Prabhupāda: So do it. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Yes, we'll prepare the cart tonight, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Lokanātha: When we started the bullock cart you said, "Go to the heart of the village," and we said, "What is this heart?" You said, "Wherever there is well, water, we should camp. We should stay." That is where we could remain clean. Prabhupāda: That you have experience. I have no experience. Lokanātha: Maybe you sent me to experience this bullock cart program so that you could... Prabhupāda: Yes. Lokanātha: ...in future go on bullock cart. Prabhupāda: For me it is experiment. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We should also request kavirāja to come along? Prabhupāda: Invite him. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He can come in the van. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Then it is all decided. You want to take some rest, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Haṁsadūta: Can we have some kīrtana, Prabhupāda? (kīrtana) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are you finished passing urine? Yes. [break] Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Daṇḍavat. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said daṇḍavat. Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali with Prabhupāda about parikrama) Prabhupāda: Make an experiment. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What time we start? Bhavānanda: Five o'clock. *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Somebody may go and bring his mālā*-japa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bring him? Prabhupāda: Bring his beads. Haṁsadūta: Where are they? Prabhupāda: Where they are? Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: At Imlitala. I can go. I can go and come back. Prabhupāda: You can go in car. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll send... Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Your mālā are at Imlitala. Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Yes. Let me go there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll take you by car. You can get your mālā. You'll stay overnight here. Haṁsadūta: Someone could pick it up for him in a rickshaw. Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: I can go. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll bring him by car. He can get his things and bring him back. He'll get his bedding. Prabhupāda: His bedding and beading. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bedding and beading. Jagadīśa: Bedding and what? Upendra: Beading. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Is that all right? (Bengali) Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're sending someone. Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: No, no, I'll go personally. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we'll go with a car. He can come and collect his things. Prabhupāda: So make arrangement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Jayapatākā: ...that if you feel any pain or experience any difficulty, then we can bring you back. Prabhupāda: Yes. I'm not obstinate. (laughter) Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Sādhu*-saṅga sādhu-saṅga sarva-siddhi... (Bengali) Either the experiment success or... (Bengali) Parikrama. (Bengali) Haṁsadūta: Someone has to take him to Imlitala to get his things. Jayapatākā: (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) Jayapatākā: Should there be kīrtana, Śrīla Prabhupāda? You like kīrtana? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To go. Prabhupāda: To request not to go? Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I'll tell you, I'm getting so upset sitting in the room upstairs. I mean I just... I was walking around... Two of the devotees told me this road is so bad that if you go on this road, you're going to be jolted back and forth. The road is terrible. I just can't understand, Śrīla Prabhupāda, why it has to be tomorrow that we have to go. If anybody wants you to travel, I do. My whole desire is to take you all over the world. I want to take you on parikrama, but why do we have to go when you're in this condition? I can't understand it. It just... I was standing outside. This kavirāja, he has worked so hard. He's so much disappointed. He can't understand why he... He says that now, today, you've taken half a kilo of milk. No mucus has is being produced. No stool is being passed. He says tomorrow he wants to give you a medicine that will begin to build the milk into muscles. He's going to get you to a point where you can take two kilos of milk a day. And he says very soon you'll be able to have the strength to actually do parikrama. So why are we throwing everything out the window, that we must go tomorrow? I cannot understand. Prabhupāda: All right. *Bhakti*-caru: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Bhavānanda: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I cannot refuse all your request. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we cannot refuse your request. We will take you all over tīrtha*-yātrā, to all the places. Just that you get a little stronger. You'll be free of all management. You simply go to tīrthas and take darśana of all the Deities in India. Everyone will stay in their respective places. They'll manage. But we just want you to be stronger. Prabhupāda: All right. That will satisfy you? (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bābājī Mahārāja also, you also thought that? We did not talk to him. Bhavānanda: We were just on our way down the stairs to come and see Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: Bhavānanda? Bhavānanda: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You are satisfied? Bhavānanda: Now I am, Śrīla Prabhupāda, yes. (laughter) I was in too much anxiety. Prabhupāda: No, no, I cannot put you in anxiety. You have done so much. You have suffered in Māyāpura so much. I cannot put you in anxiety. So I shall do what you like. (Bengali) Lefthand, righthand. I cannot refuse. Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean I'm amazed, Śrīla Prabhupāda. A half a kilo of milk you've drank today*-no mucus, no stool, and that is wonderful. You could not have done this two weeks ago. *Bhakti*-caru: Yes, when I told the kavirāja he got quite amazed. He told me, "Don't give any more milk. It might..." But Śrīla Prabhupāda wanted some milk now, so I'll give. Prabhupāda: Where is kavirāja? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's out again getting medicine. This man, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Adri*-dhāraṇa says he sits up all night worried about you, thinking, taxing his mind how to give you just what you require. Prabhupāda: No. *Bhakti*-caru: Yesterday, when I went to call him at 4:30, I saw him sitting on his bed. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All night. He goes in the jungle four, five hours looking for roots, herbs to give you. He's so sincere. *Prabhupāda: So many well*-wishers, I cannot refuse. This is not my business. (Bengali) All right. You take Bābājī Mahārāja. That will be my going. (laughter) Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Jaya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the bullock cart will go tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To Govardhana. Prabhupāda: Yes, other devotees can go. I cannot go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they'll go on your behalf, but you will go one day. That we promise you. Prabhupāda: All right. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our greatest pleasure will be to take you on tīrtha*-yātrā, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We wanted so much to go with you on that. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we're so much attached to you that you practically drive us to madness sometimes. Tonight we were becoming mad. *Prabhupāda: No, no, I shall not do that. Bābājī Mahārāja? (Bengali) So you will take bath in Rādhā*-kuṇḍa on my behalf. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll get you better, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and you will also be able to take bath personally there. We'll see you get better. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa will make all of our words come true, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali-brings milk for Prabhupāda) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, this kavirāja, I mean we're fortunate to get this sincere man. Prabhupāda: Where is kavirāja? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's out working, at work. Bhavānanda: Adri, see if he's here, kavirāja. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As soon as he comes, he can come and see Prabhupāda. (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 11, 1977, Våndävana Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...days till you get a little more strength. I mean this is a very good sign Śrīla Prabhupāda. You've taken a half a kilo of milk. No mucus, no stool. If you get a few days of strength... I mean I have no objection even tomorrow to take you. I just would like to hear what the kavirāja... I really have a little faith in him. I mean I have all faith on you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I have only a little faith in him, but I don't want to reject his advice as a doctor. This kavirāja is giving sound advice so far. Prabhupāda: Where he is? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're just trying to get him here. He went out again to get some more medicine for you. He says now that he's seen that you took this half kilo of milk he's going to start to give a medicine that will make this milk make muscles on your body, because all the muscles have become finished, slackened. So he wants to do that so that you'll then have strength. Parikramming the temple is not so bad. Let's just see what he says. It's certainly not that difficult. The main thing is, you have to be able to sit up for some time. (aside:) Prabhupāda wants to become enlivened spiritually, you know, by some spiritual activity. (to Prabhupāda:) We'll ask the kavirāja if he thinks we can take you tomorrow for a short parikrama around the temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Indian devotee: He just got on the phone. I just talked with him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's coming back? I couldn't believe that... I felt so bad, seeing him tonight. He was sitting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, on the fountain steps, completely dejected. Couldn't understand why. He just was so, so disappointed and unhappy. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the way you deal with us simply deepens our attachment every moment. *Prabhupāda: It is my duty. (laughter) There was a professor in Scottish Churches' College. So when you would say something, he would reply, "That's my duty," "juti," j*-u-t-i. (chuckles) So there was a student. He said... So he said, "Is that Scottish pronunciation?" [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What would you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Pass urine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. [break] Prabhupāda: ...properly fixed up? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it properly fixed up? Bhavānanda: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm. All right. Bhavānanda: Finished, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: About 40 cc's, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) (Bengali conversation continues for some time) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are you comfortable, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. I want little... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Little? Prabhupāda: My... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is that "my," Śrīla Prabhupāda? Jayapatākā: "My" must mean massage. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Massage? Where, Śrīla Prabhupāda? On your leg? Prabhupāda: On the corner of the waist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Both sides? Prabhupāda: No, left side. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hm? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll put a little oil on? It's against aching. This is all right. Prabhupāda: Brisk. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is that oil you liked for pains. Upendra: On the back. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Upendra said. "Should I put a little?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatākā: Is this mattress hard for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. It becomes harder. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that all right? Prabhupāda: Um hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This whole waist area? This whole area? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Bon Mahārāja came actually, but he did not come here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Where he came to? Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: He was waiting in his college. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He did not come here. Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: He said that "Go there... I will see Mahārāja at this time." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How we can give a fixed time? Actually it's better you get a little bit stronger before receiving guests, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If you see him you will be doing a lot of preaching and talking. He's still here in Vṛndāvana, Bon Mahārāja? Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Yes. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Time? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What time is good, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Ten o'clock? Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Tomorrow there is function. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, tomorrow's function. Day after tomorrow? Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Ha, day after tomorrow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tomorrow is no good? Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Day after tomorrow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What time is convenient? Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Every time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, any time is convenient. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Day or night is the same for you now. Prabhupāda: So day after tomorrow. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll send our car? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll send a car, say, at about half past eleven? Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Past eleven. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Eleven*-thirty. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good time? Is that all right with you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Ask Bābājī Mahārāja. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You also come. Where will you be? Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: I am at the Imlitala. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So first we will pick you up. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They will take prasādam here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali ) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? They will take prasādam here? Bhakti*-caru Mahārāja cooks very, very first class Bengali prasādam. Bhavānanda: Very best. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should take here. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) Svarūpa Dāmodara: The evening. Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: The evening on Saturday, er, Sunday. Svarūpa Dāmodara: On Sunday in the evening. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sunday evening. That means tomorrow. Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: No. Day after tomorrow. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Tomorrow is Saturday. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tomorrow is Saturday. Day after tomorrow. Tomorrow is Saturday? Prabhupāda: So you'll stay there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Tomorrow is Saturday. Prabhupāda: And they will send car. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. So day after tomorrow, evening. What time? Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Evening, any time is good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Six o'clock. You tell Bon Mahārāja, say, at... We will pick you up earlier. Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: No, I'll come to Bon Mahārāja's. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ācchā. Then five*-thirty. *Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Five*-thirty. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that all right? Yes? And they will take prasādam here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ācchā. So make it even a little later, say six*-thirty. *Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Six*-thirty. Not six-thirty. Five-thirty. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm? Five*-thirty's better. Okay. Ṭhike. Five-thirty. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhakti*-caru Mahārāja, you have to make nice prasādam Sunday evening. Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (aside:) He's going now? So we will take him back. You arrange. He'll come. Anudeśa, you arrange for the car also. Help Bhakti*-caru. Is this giving you a little relief, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Massaging your legs are Bhavānanda Mahārāja and Girirāja. (pause) Prabhupāda: Soda water? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Bol, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: The soda*-water sound. Bhavānanda: Soda water? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Soda water? Prabhupāda: You don't hear the sound of soda water. Bhavānanda: Yes, I do. Oh, that's the water bucket. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some water was boiling, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That was the sound of boiling water. In America people always keep the teapot boiling. So similarly, here, Upendra, he always keeps a pot of water boiling, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He is always ready to serve you with warm water. Whenever you need warm water... So that's one of the things. Always there is some water boiling here. You must be very tired today, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You've done a great deal of talking. [break] (Hindi with kavirāja) *Bhakti*-caru: He's asking whether Śrīla Prabhupāda is feeling stronger. He said yes. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: He's saying that Prabhupāda's pulse is ninety, which is normal, and he gave three other medicines for Prabhupāda's heart. That missing beat that Prabhupāda was having-that's no more there. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were having a missing beat in your pulse. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali) He is telling that he's requesting repeatedly that Prabhupāda doesn't talk too much. He says that the energy that he's building, the moment he starts talking, he loses that energy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, how to say all right? Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Trying to stop Śrīla Prabhupāda from speaking is like trying to stop the Gaṅgā. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: Shastriji's saying that he's seen lakhs of patients, but he hasn't seen a body like Śrīla Prabhupāda's. In one moment it is very critical, and the next moment it's in perfect order. And he is now absolutely confident that Prabhupāda is going to get well. Jagadīśa: He is or isn't? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is. We also are. *Bhakti*-caru: And he's just requesting Śrīla Prabhupāda that he keeps on taking the milk and the fruit juice and the medicine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 13, 1977, Våndävana Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...the bullock cart to Vṛndāvana. You were thinking to travel again, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Not now. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some pain? Oh, here he is. Here's Lokanātha, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Lokanātha? Lokanātha: Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You are coming back? Lokanātha: Yes, we came back from saṅkīrtana. We had kīrtana in the town, Vṛndāvana, Loi Bazaar and Banke Bihārī temple, that route. We had a bullock cart filled in with Gurukula school children, and there was a big group of devotees chanting and dancing in front of the cart, and there was also van, making announcement, inviting people for our afternoon program of ārati, kīrtana, and prasādam distribution. Prabhupāda: So go. Lokanātha: No, we already did. I announced, and we also had kīrtana. It was very ecstatic. Thirty, forty devotees came, and it was very, very nice. Wherever we stopped, people gathered around us in a big number, enjoyed kīrtana and heard announcements about the program. So I just came back. Prabhupāda: And prasādam? Lokanātha: Prasādam will be served out to the guests after this ārati. Twelve o'clock is ārati. And then we'll be serving out prasādam to the guests first. When everyone is served, we'll eat the remnants. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The devotees aren't going to take the feast also? Lokanātha: Yes, remnants of the Lord. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, the remnants of the Deities. Prabhupāda: What is the time now? Lokanātha: Now, 11:35. Prabhupāda: You have got all in your charge. Lokanātha: Yes, I have. Prabhupāda: Tamāla? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Consult with him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Make up a tour? All right. Very good. Prabhupāda: Since a long time I have got a desire. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Prabhupāda's had this ambition for a long time. Lokanātha: Travel in the holy places. So you'll be doing in...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we can discuss. Jayādvaita: Lord Balarāma, He did that. He went to all the holy places. So in the same way, if you can get a little strength from Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma here in Vṛndāvana, then you can... Lord Balarāma was going to all the different places. Prabhupāda: I give you idea. Where is Lokanātha? Lokanātha: Yes, I'm here, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What is called? Front party. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of party? Prabhupāda: Front party. Lokanātha: Front party, advance party, yes. Prabhupāda: They'll give us description of the land, and before our going, they'll make a camp. Small, big, that doesn't matter. And in the morning, the former camp broken, and go to the next camp with kīrtana. In the meantime the other camp is ready to receive you. Then the next camp, after taking prasādam, they'll go to the next camp. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you follow this, Lokanātha? Do you have a question to ask? Lokanātha: So there is a smaller group going in advance, and bigger group with you stays back. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lokanātha: Yes, and they go, fix the place, and inform your party where they are and what kind of arrangement they have made. And when you are satisfied, you leave that place to join the first group, small group, advance party. Right? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And after Prabhupāda joins that group, then the advance party goes again. Lokanātha: To the next place, to make further arrangements at the next place. Prabhupāda: In this way. Lokanātha: Ye. This kind of program we have done before also. Whenever we had big group traveling, we always send two devotees out, or sometimes four devotees. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We also did that with our Rādhā*-Dāmodara program. That is the way of traveling-advance booking. Lokanātha: Yes, so the main party does not lose time in finding or looking for the place. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're not inconvenienced in any way. Lokanātha: Right. So that advance party could wait at the gate of the... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wherever. But that's the idea. Prabhupāda: And when you go in procession, have kīrtana. Lokanātha: Yes. That would be nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Originally, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we talked of this idea, we were considering going with a few vehicles so that we could go to many holy places all over India. I still think that that's the best idea, and Lokanātha also agreed with me when we talked about this. Because bullock carts... Of course, we're not in a big rush, but if we would like to go to a few pla..., all over India, we can go very comfortably with a few vehicles. Prabhupāda can have the back seat of a vehicle, travel very comfortably. Lokanātha: I could see this Volkswagen we have. They don't have any seats. It's all flat. They already have mattresses, and it's kind of a big room. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like that. That's more convenient for traveling all over India, Prabhupāda. I mean we should be practical also. Otherwise we'll spend from one tīrtha to another, just like from here... Supposing we wanted to go just like Ayodhyā. Oh, three weeks. Lokanātha: More. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More than three weeks, just to go... Lokanātha: It will take two and a half months. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two and a half months, Śrīla Prabhupāda, just to go from one tīrtha*-sthāna to the next. We don't have that kind of time. Better that we go in very good caravan of vehicles, comfortable. You will have your own vehicle, the advance party will have one vehicle, and one or two others... Your party will have two or three vehicles, and the advance party can have one vehicle. We have enough cars. Your Divine Grace has a car in Māyāpura; we have a car here in Vṛndāvana; we have one of your cars in Bombay. There's so many vehicles and vans. So we have our choice. We can get very nice vehicles. Jayādvaita: That will make a very nice impression also. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise... Svarūpa Dāmodara was mentioning to me, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if we were to take you in a bullock cart... What did you say Svarūpa Dāmodara? People would accuse us of being very negligent of you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and it would look very bad upon our Society. They would accuse us, how we have taken our spiritual master... Lokanātha: They wouldn't understand these transcendental activities of the Vaiṣṇavas. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You've always preached that we should do things in a modern way, just appropriately. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And use for Kṛṣṇa whatever available... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think if we fix up vehicles very nicely, that will be nice. Will that be all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is that all right? Prabhupāda: Hm. Lokanātha: And most of the holy places are connected with good roads. During our preaching we also visit holy places. When they're on the way, we pass through them. And if we travel not very fast, with good drivers, it won't be much... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhakti*-caitanya Swami is the fit driver for your vehicles, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Is that all right? I know he would want to come. Is that all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's expert, Bhakti*-caitanya Swami. He knows how to arrange everything also. Jayādvaita: These vehicles can supply electricity so that when you stop... Prabhupāda: Purchase at least four vehicles. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Four what, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: At least four vehicles. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Purchase at least four vehicles. Right. I think some scientist should also come with us, Śrīla Prabhupāda (laughter), in case we meet anyone very intelligent, we need a scientific mind to defeat them. So Svarūpa Dāmodara can come with us? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Girirāja: And someone to make members (laughter), in case we meet any rich people. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Girirāja is requesting to come, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Is it all right? Prabhupāda: By managing you can come, everyone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. If you manage properly, then you can all come. Lokanātha: So do I come with you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: You will be the leader. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You're the leader of the party. *Lokanātha: So I have a vehicle. They also could travel with us, and in the same town they will do nagara*-saṅkīrtana all day long and distribute books? Prabhupāda: Hm. Lokanātha: I think that it will make our program complete. We have membership team, we have scientist visiting the scientists, and our boys will go door to door, house to house, and spread your message. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: With book distribution and saṅkīrtana. Bhavānanda: I think that the Māyāpura book distribution team now has some heavy competition. Lokanātha: With Prabhupāda's traveling saṅkīrtana and book distribution. Also our party is well equipped to do evening programs. So there will be lot of senior devotees, and advance party could arrange programs and do different big temples or different public meetings. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm hm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you should not overexert yourself. Prabhupāda: No. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can do the speaking and the kīrtanas. Prabhupāda should be allowed to do simply tīrtha*-yātrā. Lokanātha: You'll be acting through us, by your mercy. Jayādvaita: Śrīla Prabhupāda never does anything small. Lokanātha: Prabhupāda is big. He thinks of big and he does big. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But first get a little more strength, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That we really request you to do so that the program... Let us do it so that it becomes successful, not that after two days we have to turn back. When going we should not turn back. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So let us become prepared properly. Prabhupāda: (as they lift Prabhupāda?) You'll bruise. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "You'll bruise," Prabhupāda said. Prabhupāda: It is already bruised enough. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is already rough and bruised. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We'll just lift your shoulders a slight bit so that we can pull the sheet out? Then it won't bruise. If I just lift you... Is that all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (pause) [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or shall we discuss more? We can start discussing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. We'll have kīrtana here for you. Okay. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. [break] *Prabhupāda: May come see.(?) Bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām, vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ... [Bg. 2.44]. Jayādvaita: Samādhau na vidhīyate. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali) [break] Kavirāja: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Bhavānanda: He won't let us put anything on. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: How did he sleep last night? Bhavānanda: He was just... From two to three he was sleeping very deeply. *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Kavirāja: (Hindi) Bhavānanda: He was feeling very cold. Kavirāja: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Where is Jayādvaita?(?) *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Bhakti*-caru: He's feeling the pain only in his leg. Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) *Bhavānanda: It's fixed up, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (long pause) (Hindi*-kavirāja attends Prabhupāda) Finished passing urine, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I never passed. Bhavānanda: Do you have to now? No. [break] Prabhupāda was saying he is heavy all over his body. Just before all this pain, he was feeling heavy. *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Kavirāja: (Hindi) Indian devotee: Which side? The left side of the body? Bhavānanda: He said all over. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Bhavānanda: Also he called me. He was feeling very cold, and so many blankets and quilts. Prabhupāda: Blood pressure is... Blood pressure... *Bhakti*-caru: (Hindi) Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: He said that there are three things that cause disease: vāyu, pitta, and kapha. And due to weakness, the... Kavirāja: (Hindi) *Bhakti*-caru: Medicines might have caused some cold in the body. Milk also is quite cooling. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Are you feeling a little relief now? Try and take some rest now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Bhavānanda: The swelling's gone down every day. It's not increasing. Have you noticed? Kavirāja: (Hindi) (end) *Room Conversation-*-November 13-14, 1977, Våndävana Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's sort of encouraging to see you taking milk. That's encouraging. That's something which you said if you could take, you would get stronger, so I'm encouraged by that. I think that a great deal of patience is ultimately required. We have to expect that actual strength and muscles will take a little time to come. (background conversation) (Hindi conversation) *Bhakti*-caru: No, that will go away. (Hindi conversation) Prabhupāda: They are taking urine? *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali) Upendra: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you didn't pass any urine the first time. Do you want to try again? We can cleanse you now? Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (Bengali conversation with Bon Mahārāja) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a certificate arrived from the Soviet Union. Bon Mahārāja: It's in Russian language or in English? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, some of it, I think, is in Russian. I have the translation. It says, the top wording here, this says that "Books in the service of peace and progress. A diploma for the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, Bombay, given by the First Moscow International Book Fair Exhibitions and Fairs, General Directorate of International Book Exhibitions and Fairs, USSR." (Bengali conversation) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All Russian universities ordered Prabhupāda's books. (Bengali) Bon Mahārāja: (Bengali) (Bengali conversation with Prabhupāda) That's *Bhāgavatam*, Tenth Canto. That is up to which chapter? Jayādvaita: Twelve chapters. This is up to chapter twelve. And now thirteenth chapter is also completed. Bon Mahārāja: In and out, both are superexcellent. Inside, in Mahārāja's translation, and outside, your publication, printing, makeup, everything superexcellent. That is first attraction, when you take the book in your hand you feel that is something very nicely done. I don't think in India we can have this type of printing. You get them printed now in Los Angeles? Jayādvaita: They're printed in Tennessee. Bon Mahārāja: Tennessee. And the pictures are printed separately, then the pictures are sent to the publisher in pages. Bon Mahārāja: Last time they told me in New York... Your press was in New York, and they were shifting it to Los Angeles. About two hundred brahmacārīs were working there and they told me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it's in Los Angeles. Bon Mahārāja: Los Angeles. Well, it is all Mahāprabhu's will, and Prabhupāda is our... Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Los Angeles is godown... (Bengali) Howrah Station. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have a picture of it, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I have a picture of that BBT godown. Prabhupāda: Show him. Devotee: It's about two blocks long and about one block high. Bon Mahārāja: Everything is done in a very big way. Devotee: 'Cause Prabhupāda's a big (indistinct). Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (Bengali conversation with Bon Mahārāja) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's a picture of that book godown in Los Angeles. Bon Mahārāja: What's the length of the building? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the length of that building, Jayādvaita? Twenty thousand square feet in area. Bon Mahārāja: In area. Well, in your country, in USA, everything is very big. Nothing is done in a small way. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the Los Angeles temple. These are the Deities, Śrī-Śrī*-Rukmiṇī-Dvārakādhīśa. And we have a very nice doll exhibition there. Bon Mahārāja: What is that exhibition? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Doll, diorama. These are some of the exhibitions. This devotee here, Bharadvāja dāsa, he's the creator of this doll exhibition. This is our temple in New York now, this building. *Bon Mahārāja: You have purchased it? There was a talk of taking that twelve*-story theological seminary. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is also thirteen stories, but it's a different building. It's in Manhattan. Bon Mahārāja: Which street? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty*-fifth Street. This is our temple in London. We have actually three temples there now. This one is in Hertfordshire, called Bhaktivedanta Manor, and then we have one near the British Museum in Bury Place, which is that five-story building. And then we just purchased a restaurant and reading room just off of Oxford St., on Soho St. This is in France. It's a chateau which we have purchased, very nice, with a farm. Very beautiful place. And these are the Deities, Kṛṣṇa-Kāliya, in Fiji. This temple was just opened in Fiji. Kṛṣṇa-Kāliya. *Bon Mahārāja: Kāliya*-damana. That is in Fiji. (Bengali with Prabhupāda) *Bhakti*-caru: (Bengali) (Bengali conversation with Prabhupāda and Bon Mahārāja) (kīrtana) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda is asking to give prasāda to all the devotees. [break] *Conversation A-*-January 6, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-January 6, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation C-*-January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation D-*-January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation E-*-January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation F-*-January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 22, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 22, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation C-*-January 22, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation C-*-January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 24, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 24, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 25, 1977, Jagannatha Puri *Conversation B-*-January 25, 1977, Jagannatha Puri *Conversation A-*-January 26, 1977, Jagannatha Puri *Conversation Address-*-January 26, 1977, Jagannatha Puri *Conversation B-*-January 26, 1977, Jagannatha Puri *Conversation A-*-January 27, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 27, 1977, Jagannatha Puri *Conversation B-*-January 27, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 27, 1977, Jagannatha Puri *Conversation A-*-January 28, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 28, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 29, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 29, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 30, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 30, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-January 31, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-January 31, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation C-*-January 31, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-February 2, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation B-*-February 2, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-February 3, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation on Train-*-February 3, 1977, Bhuvanesvara *Conversation A-*-February 4, 1977, Calcutta *Conversation B-*-February 4, 1977, Calcutta *Conversation-*-February 5, 1977, Calcutta *Conversation-*-February 11, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-February 12, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 14, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 14, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation C-*-February 14, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-February 15, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 16, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 16, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-February 17, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 18, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 18, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation C-*-February 18, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation D-*-February 18, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 19, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 19, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation C-*-February 19, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation D-*-February 19, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation E-*-February 19, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-February 21, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 24, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 24, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 25, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 25, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation C-*-February 25, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-February 26, 1977, Mayapur *Interview-*-February 26, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 27, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 27, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-February 28, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-February 28, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation C-*-February 28, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation A-*-March 1, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation B-*-March 1, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-March 2, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-March 4, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-March 20, 1977, Mayapur *Conversation-*-March 22, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-March 24, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-March 26, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-March 26, 1977, Bombay *Conversation C-*-March 26, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-March 27, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-March 27, 1977, Bombay *Conversation D-*-March 27, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-March 29, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-March 30, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-March 31, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-March 31, 1977, Bombay *Conversation C-*-March 31, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 2, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 5, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 5, 1977, Bombay *Conversation C-*-April 5, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 10, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 10, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 11, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 13, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 15, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 16, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 17, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 17, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 18, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 18, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 19, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 19, 1977, Bombay *Conversation C-*-April 19, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 20, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 22, 1977, Bombay *Conversation C-*-April 22, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 23, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 23, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 24, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 25, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 25, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 28, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-April 28, 1977, Bombay *Conversation-*-April 29, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-April 30, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-May 2, 1977, Bombay *Conversation B-*-May 2, 1977, Bombay *Conversation A-*-May 8, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation B-*-May 8, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation C-*-May 8, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation-*-May 9, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation-*-May 11, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation-*-May 12, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation-*-May 13, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation-*-May 14, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation-*-May 15, 1977, Hrishikesh *Conversation-*-May 17, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-May 19, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-May 20, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-May 21, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-May 22, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-May 24, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-May 24, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-May 24, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation D-*-May 24, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-May 25, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-May 25, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-May 27, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-May 27, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-May 27, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-May 28, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-May 28, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-May 28, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-May 29, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-May 29, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-May 31, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 1, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 2, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 17, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 18, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-June 19, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-June 19, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-June 20, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-June 20, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 21, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 22, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 23, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 24, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-June 26, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-June 26, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-June 27, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-June 28, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-June 28, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-June 28, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation D-*-June 28, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-June 30, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-June 30, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-June 30, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 1, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 1, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-July 1, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation D-*-July 1, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation E-*-July 1, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation F-*-July 1, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 2, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 2, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-July 3, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 5, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 5, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-July 6, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 7, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 7, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-July 7, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 8, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 8, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-July 10, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 14, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 14, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-July 15, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 17, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 17, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-July 19, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-July 19, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-July 26, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-July 27, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-July 31, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-August 8, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-August 10, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-August 11, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-August 17, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-August 29, 1977, London *Conversation-*-October 2, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-October 3, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-October 4, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 6, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 6, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 8, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 8, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-October 9, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 10, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 10, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 11, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 11, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-October 12, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 13, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 13, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-October 13, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 14, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 14, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-October 14, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 15, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 15, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-October 15, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 16, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 16, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-October 16, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 17, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 17, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 18, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 18, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-October 18, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-October 19, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 20, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 20, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 21, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 21, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 22, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 22, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-October 24, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 25, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 25, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation-*-October 26, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-October 27, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-October 27, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-November 9, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-November 9, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation C-*-November 9, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation D-*-November 9, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation A-*-November 12, 1977, Vrndavana *Conversation B-*-November 12, 1977, Vrndavana